# Should Care and NHS staff be forced to have Covid jabs?



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I think for the general public , it should be their choice. But staff caring for elderly and sick people , perhaps they should . I read an interview with a woman who was sacked her care home job and was very upset. Her reason was that she was worried about long term affects of the injection. I can understand that but I'm not sure if that's a good enough reason .
I understand nursing staff and Doctors do have to have other jabs as well such as Hep B .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Should the government bring back restrictions and stop relying on the vaccine to dig themselves out of a bloody great big hole rather than enforcing a law that effectively removes civil liberty so that when the NHS falls down, they can blame it back onto the staff there in another Teflon Boris move to take away blame from anything he's done? (That's not a question so much as an observation). AKA "Watch Boris walk around your hospital without his mask on because it was his decision to remove all restrictions is right and it's you... hardworking nurse whom he blames because you were not vaccinated.'

It's not the vaccine I have a beef with (I have had mine), and I am concerned about anti-vaxers but this approach will make it worse. This feels like a test of liberty and will that makes me very wary. If anything it gives the anti-vaxxers more reason to protest.

Mind you, I've not been into a workplace and one reason is not knowing who is in denial about Covid and all that. I feel so much empathy for anyone in our caring services.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

No, because either way, the NHS and care sector loses vital staff they cannot afford to lose. Either because those who refuse the vaccine leave, or they're sacked.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

No because it is well known now that having the jab does not stop you from catching or spreading the virus, I have seen a few times now that the viral load is the same regardless of if you are vaccinated or not (if I'm wrong though I will be delighted to be proven wrong), the 'only' thing the vaccine does is protect the person who has had it from, hopefully. not getting too sick or worse.

Therefore I do not see the logic in making carers or NHS staff loose their jobs.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MollySmith said:


> It's not the vaccine I have a beef with (I have had mine), and I am concerned about anti-vaxers but this approach will make it worse. This feels like a test of liberty and will that makes me very wary. If anything it gives the anti-vaxxers more reason to protest.
> 
> .


I understand that doctors and nurses have to have certain jabs anyway , Hep B and I think TB being so hasn't their civil liberty already been encroached?
Crafty of the Government to wait until spring until they sack NHS staff who haven't had the jabs.

ETA This might not be correct . Please see Mrs Funkins post #11


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

ForestWomble said:


> No because it is well known now that having the jab does not stop you from catching or spreading the virus, I have seen a few times now that the viral load is the same regardless of if you are vaccinated or not (if I'm wrong though I will be delighted to be proven wrong), the 'only' thing the vaccine does is protect the person who has had it from, hopefully. not getting too sick or worse.
> 
> Therefore I do not see the logic in making carers or NHS staff loose their jobs.


I dont understand why they don't want to protect themselves. Some have already died from Covid. They have a greater risk of catching it in a hospital .


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I dont understand why they don't want to protect themselves. Some have already died from Covid. They have a greater risk of catching it in a hospital .


That is a very good question, but one only each individual can answer.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

ForestWomble said:


> No because it is well known now that having the jab does not stop you from catching or spreading the virus, I have seen a few times now that the viral load is the same regardless of if you are vaccinated or not (if I'm wrong though I will be delighted to be proven wrong), the 'only' thing the vaccine does is protect the person who has had it from, hopefully. not getting too sick or worse.


Not strictly true, and certainly not an argument against vaccines. Looking at breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people, they have a lower viral load than unvaccinated individuals. However, this effect starts to decline a couple of months after vaccination, hence the need for booster jabs to top up immunity.

I do fully believe that all healthcare staff should be vaccinated to protect the vulnerable patients they care for (and also to protect each other and reduce the pressure on the NHS from whole teams being wiped out. BUT this should come from improved education. It is shocking to me that so many healthcare workers lack even basic understanding of vaccines and how they work. Ignoring their concerns and simply dictating that they need to be vaccinated or else will not improve the situation


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

I keep thinking about this as it's obviously close to my heart. 

The more I think about it, the more I am on the side of "not". I've had my jabs and my booster. I've done it for my husband really as I cannot help but come into contact with so many people each day and also to protect the women in my care. HOWEVER - I really really strongly feel that if people expect US to be vaccinated to protect THEM, they should also be vaccinated to protect themselves and everyone else they come into contact with (including us). 

We talk all the time about informed choice for our patients. Where is our choice? We are patients too. We will absolutely lose staff as a result of this. There appears to sadly be no reasoning with healthcare workers who are declining though, from what I have read. I would love everyone I work with to be jabbed, but I cannot make them in the same way as I have a box in the notes of a pregnant woman to tick "vaccination declined" regarding the flu and pertussis vaccinations. Seemingly there is no "vaccination declined" box for healthcare workers!

As an example using a more well-established vaccination programme, there was a push last year to try to get all staff caring for women late in pregnancy/neonates to have the whooping cough vaccination. The reason for us? To protect the fetus in case of coming into contact with pregnant women who choose, yes CHOOSE, not to have the whooping cough vaccination. So no, there is already a choice for those women, to get the vaccination - if you want protection for your baby when it is born, get the vaccination. The uptake, unsurprisingly, was incredibly low. If you want to reduce your risk of dying/ending up on ECMO/normal ventilation/plain old hospitalisation as a pregnant woman, have the blooming Covid jab. 

The latest figures I saw showed over 80% of people in intensive care with Covid are unvaccinated. The number is much higher than that when we talk about pregnant women. 

Sorry for the capital letters, I just am a bit ggrrrr about it all.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

Dimwit said:


> Not strictly true, and certainly not an argument against vaccines. Looking at breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people, they have a lower viral load than unvaccinated individuals. However, this effect starts to decline a couple of months after vaccination, hence the need for booster jabs to top up immunity.
> 
> I do fully believe that all healthcare staff should be vaccinated to protect the vulnerable patients they care for (and also to protect each other and reduce the pressure on the NHS from whole teams being wiped out. BUT this should come from improved education. It is shocking to me that so many healthcare workers lack even basic understanding of vaccines and how they work. Ignoring their concerns and simply dictating that they need to be vaccinated or else will not improve the situation


Thank you.
And for the record I am not arguing against vaccines, just confused.


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## 1507601 (Jun 26, 2020)

kimthecat said:


> Her reason was that she was worried about long term affects of the injection. I can understand that but I'm not sure if that's a good enough reason .


How's that not a good enough reason? I'm not an anti-vaxxer (feel like you have to confirm that in these times...) but I feel like having concerns about your long term health is actually something that should be taken very seriously, and not less so because you chose to work in public health.

Personally I'm vaccinated, but given that a. as stated above, it doesn't protect you as much as you'd hope and b. people really are having some serious health problems after having the vaccine, I'm not sure I'd choose to have it with that new information.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

I don't know to be honest, i'm really torn on it. Personally I encourage anyone I can to have the covid jab however I don't think it should be forced as it will just cause more ill feeling and most likely have the opposite effect, meaning those already unsure/not wanting it will be even less likely. And yes its scary to think of the knock on effect to the already struggling NHS this will have. Good point about the vaccines already in place though @kimthecat , I had to have hep b with my job as I work with blood products.

I can definitely see how it will benefit those working directly patient facing and their patients though, especially those already vulnerable.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

In case anyone is interested in reading it, I've just seen the position statement from the RCM:

https://www.rcm.org.uk/news-views/news/2021/november/mandatory-covid-vaccination-for-nhs-staff/?dm_i=4YCH,LE8S,2AWPZR,2KJG3,1

It's feeble but seems to at least support choice.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

While I don`t understand why anyone would not want to be vaccinated I think the current situation with care this is really not the time to be potential loosing even more care workers. All the poor people currently unable to get care would probably just be happy to get someone regardless of vaccine status!


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Mrs Funkin said:


> In case anyone is interested in reading it, I've just seen the position statement from the RCM:
> 
> https://www.rcm.org.uk/news-views/n...-for-nhs-staff/?dm_i=4YCH,LE8S,2AWPZR,2KJG3,1


So its not all NHS staff, just patient facing? Does this mean all the behind the scenes staff (for example I do lab work) won't be made to have it?


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

From what I've seen @Boxerluver30 it's only staff who come into contact with patients - so clerical staff who walk through wards/work on a ward are expected to but if you work just in an office and only have contact with other staff members, apparently not. However, there aren't secret corridors in hospitals that are patient free, so not sure how that is different than just walking through a ward.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Mrs Funkin said:


> From what I've seen @Boxerluver30 it's only staff who come into contact with patients - so clerical staff who walk through wards/work on a ward are expected to but if you work just in an office and only have contact with other staff members, apparently not. However, there aren't secret corridors in hospitals that are patient free, so not sure how that is different than just walking through a ward.


Thanks for clarifying. That makes no sense to me as like you say there's still a chance office workers can come into contact with patients or even other frontline workers who could then pass it on . I think re. hospitals, care homes etc. it should be everyone who's vaccinated really as otherwise you risk cross contamination. Theoretically since we work out of the way in a lab (blood donation centre) we should be ok but donors come into the building so really the same rules should apply to us using that logic.


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## Boxerluver30 (Jun 14, 2017)

Oh and would just like to clarify i'm double jabbed and I'm booked in for the booster on the 26th so when i say we I mean generally .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> I understand that doctors and nurses have to have certain jabs anyway , Hep B and I think TB being so hasn't their civil liberty already been encroached?.


I didn't know that, thank you for explaining.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

As far as I know no vaccinations are mandatory to work in healthcare, just recommended. There is no mandatory wording in the Public Health England Green Book for vaccinations, the language is all "recommended" and "should". Link here:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/147882/Green-Book-Chapter-12.pdf


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Through my own experiences in life, I am strongly in favour of people getting vaccines, it’s a no brainier and I would argue till the ends of earth with someone who is anti vaccine, particularly if they were spreading false information.

However strongly I feel about vaccines though, I would never hold someone down and force a vaccine onto them. 

However if employers want to make it a mandatory requirement for NEW hires then sure, but I don’t believe it to be fair to force existing employees to have it.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Lucy2020 said:


> How's that not a good enough reason? I'm not an anti-vaxxer (feel like you have to confirm that in these times...) but I feel like having concerns about your long term health is actually something that should be taken very seriously, and not less so because you chose to work in public health.
> 
> Personally I'm vaccinated, but given that a. as stated above, it doesn't protect you as much as you'd hope and b. people really are having some serious health problems after having the vaccine, I'm not sure I'd choose to have it with that new information.


Ok but she works in a hospital and is at risk at catching Covid , people die from it and then there is long Covid and shes not worried about that ?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Mrs Funkin said:


> As far as I know no vaccinations are mandatory to work in healthcare, just recommended. There is no mandatory wording in the Public Health England Green Book for vaccinations, the language is all "recommended" and "should". Link here:
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/147882/Green-Book-Chapter-12.pdf


Sorry , I havent read all of the link . I dont have the concentration. A doctor on the BBC news says she had to have hep B but perhaps there's a reason for that.
However , it says in the link that all staff
"Routine vaccination All staff should be up to date with their routine immunisations, e.g. tetanus, diphtheria, polio and MMR. The MMR vaccine is especially important in the context of the ability of staff to transmit measles or rubella infections to vulnerable groups. While healthcare workers may need MMR vaccination for their own benefit, they should also be immune to measles and rubella in order to assist in protecting patients. Satisfactory evidence of protection would include documentation of having received two doses of MMR or having had positive antibody tests for measles and rubella. "

So that means they have to have those jabs rather than recommended ?. Most people of my age would have had all those jabs as children .



MollySmith said:


> I didn't know that, thank you for explaining.


That might not be right .


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Sorry , I havent read all of the link . I dont have the concentration. A doctor on the BBC news says she had to have hep B but perhaps there's a reason for that.
> However , it says in the link that all staff
> "Routine vaccination All staff should be up to date with their routine immunisations, e.g. tetanus, diphtheria, polio and MMR. The MMR vaccine is especially important in the context of the ability of staff to transmit measles or rubella infections to vulnerable groups. While healthcare workers may need MMR vaccination for their own benefit, they should also be immune to measles and rubella in order to assist in protecting patients. Satisfactory evidence of protection would include documentation of having received two doses of MMR or having had positive antibody tests for measles and rubella. "
> 
> ...


There is apparently a push for MMR vaccinations according to the nurse I saw last week. I was only going for BP check but came out with MMR. Apparently if you are younger than 58, they are trying to get everyone vaccinated. Probably cynical but I think it's to help hospital out too. I am in the happy to be vaccinated area


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

The info in the link is very repetitive @kimthecat so I wouldn't worry too much about battling through it to be honest. It's interesting that when I started training there was definitely no mention of "should" about Hep B, it was definitely sold to us as something we had to do, so I fully get where you are coming from. We also had bloods done for varicella immunity amongst other things (it's a long time ago now, so I can't remember much detail!). I think the language choice is interesting too - I wonder if the Green Book will change to reflect all other vaccinations being "must" not "recommended" if Covid jabs become mandatory. Time will tell. I was surprised that the flu jab wasn't bundled in to be made mandatory too.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I thought surgeons had to have Hep B or they weren’t allowed to operate. Could well be wrong though


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

My son works as part of a small team where the team leader is antivax, and very militant about it too, leading demos etc. For the purpose of identity let's call him.....er....... Dick.
The whole team followed Dick and refused the vaccine. Consequently they all caught covid. One of them ended up being put into a coma and ventilated and almost died. Antivax Dick was hospitalised and very poorly and left with life changing disabilities. He doesn't accept be had covid and still refuses to be jabbed.
The reason he is anti vax is he doesn't trust it for a variety reasons which I won't go into. No need as we've all heard them, many times thru media.
My son of course caught covid and infected his double jabbed wife and young child who fortunately got off lightly, but son was very ill although didn't end up in hospital.
When I spoke to him about his experience he was quick to tell me that he would beg anyone to have the jabs and boosters and anything else to help prevent catching or spreading it. Says it was the worst time of his life and felt sure he would die and was terrified.He's been ill before but nothing he's had compares with covid.
Weeks later he is still unable to work and has severe chest pain and breathlessness. It take him 15 minutes to get upstairs. He is a broken man because he thought Dick knew best and trusted him.
The whole team have now refused to work with Dick and truly wished they hadn't allowed themselves to be influenced by him.
My son asked me to relate his story in the hope it will convince others who are unsure about the vaccine to have it ASAP.

As for care staff in homes. I heard one saying (on TV) that she felt being made to have the vaccine is against her human rights. I say to her that it is the human rights of everyone she cares for to expect to feel safe in her care, and that includes protecting them from illness.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> I understand that doctors and nurses have to have certain jabs anyway , Hep B and I think TB being so hasn't their civil liberty already been encroached?
> Crafty of the Government to wait until spring until they sack NHS staff who haven't had the jabs.
> 
> ETA This might not be correct . Please see Mrs Funkins post #11


I think in those cases when they choose to go into nursing they know to do so they have certain vaccinations, which have been around for years and they know the risks and benefits. Having a vaccination added to that list when they are already in their job, and to keep their job they have to have it, has taken away their choice.

I have been vaccinated but can understand people's reluctance to do so if they are being coerced.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm really wasn't sure about this but talking to my neighbour who is a carer, she thinks they all should unless they have a really good reason.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Although I can’t understand why people don’t want the jab I’m in two minds over NHS staff who refuse losing their jobs. A major part of me says they should have the jab as they are looking after others when they are at their frailest and those in their care should be protected as much as possible. I would have thought that staff would want to protect others particularly knowing how deadly Covid can be. 
My half sister was admitted to hospital recently with a chest issue and later caught Covid from either another patient or a staff member, she’s not at all well and it’s not looking good. As you may know I'm waiting to have an operation which, according to the surgeon, is urgent, but the hospital has no beds currently as they have been taken up by Covid patients who are unvaccinated. Whilst the unvaccinated whine about freedom of choice and it’s all a big conspiracy, my half sister is dying and I’m scared if my leg isn’t attended to soon I might lose it or worse. At the same time I’m scared to be in hospital in case I get Covid from a nurse who thinks her choice is far more important then mine.
Maybe unvaccinated staff should consider whether they are in the right line of work or perhaps they should work in another part of the NHS and not in a patient facing role.
Then there is that little part of me that wonders how I would be feeling if I was young and healthy and not yet started a family and worried in case something in this new vaccine my ability to have children or damaged my health long term


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Cully Sorry to hear your son has been so ill and @Siskin , your sister too.

Frightening and it is easy to get complacent .


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> @Cully Sorry to hear your son has been so ill and @Siskin , your sister too.
> 
> Frightening and it is easy to get complacent .


Thank you. Were just hoping he makes a full recovery eventually.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Oh @Cully and @Siskin  I'm so sorry to read your messages. I do so wish that folk would get their jabs. All the people who have had jabs all their lives, starting as a baby, but won't have the Covid jab.

I've had way too many sad Covid conversations this week. No matter what statistics I quote to women, so many just won't be vaccinated. I'm finding it so frustrating, as I am expected to be vaccinated to protect them (and I am) and yet they and many of their partners are not vaccinated, so they're not protecting themselves (nor us). Why is it acceptable that once again we are put in these situations?

I just wish it was different.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*For what it's worth i personally don't think anyone should be made to have any jabs. Once we start this where will it end? I haven't had the covid jabs and don't intend to. But that's my choice, and people should always have a choice.*


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *For what it's worth i personally don't think anyone should be made to have any jabs. Once we start this where will it end? I haven't had the covid jabs and don't intend to. But that's my choice, and people should always have a choice.*


I understand it's your choice etc, but it's people like you that have taken all the spare beds in the hospital as they are disparately ill with Covid and I can't have an urgent operation.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Siskin said:


> I understand it's your choice etc, but it's people like you that have taken all the spare beds in the hospital as they are disparately ill with Covid and I can't have an urgent operation.


*If this government spent as much on OUR nhs as they do weapons ect, you would have a bed and your op. It's been known for years now that the nhs has been underfunded and staff underpaid and over worked.*


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *If this government spent as much on OUR nhs as they do weapons ect, you would have a bed and your op. It's been known for years now that the nhs has been underfunded and staff underpaid and over worked.*


I doubt having extra funding would have helped in these circumstances as staff have died and been sick themselves. Before vaccinations , operations and appointments were canceled to stop Covid spreading .

Covid passports are a good idea for venues where Covid spreads and places should have the choice of banning people who havent had the jabs. Covid is going to drag on and on unless more people have the vaccinations.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Why should vaccinated people be bumped to make room for those that have chosen to not safeguard themselves?

I think we should have separate facilities for Covid patients


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

rona said:


> Why should vaccinated people be bumped to make room for those that have chosen to not safeguard themselves?
> 
> I think we should have separate facilities for Covid patients


I agree. Or the NHS could put the money that was allocated to them by the government last year for the purpose of sending patients requiring routine ops to private hospitals for their treatment during Covid. I read a report that the money was accepted but the powers that be in the NHS were reluctant to actually use it for for this purpose as they didn't want to support the private sector in any way.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> I was only going for BP check but came out with MMR.


 How did that happen?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Interesting read...*
*https://chpi.org.uk/papers/reports/for-whose-benefit/*


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Calvine said:


> How did that happen?


It's not the first time I have come away with a quick vaccination when going for another appointment with the nurses..she basically said I was here for BP check and I can also be vaccinated for MMR. Seemed sensible how she explained things


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

rona said:


> Why should vaccinated people be bumped to make room for those that have chosen to not safeguard themselves?
> 
> I think we should have separate facilities for Covid patients


We did, The Nightingales, but they were deemed as not needed and no longer in use.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

3dogs2cats said:


> We did, The Nightingales, but they were deemed as not needed and no longer in use.


I remember that - they were so proud of having got seven of them ready in record time - then that was the end of that. Not sure if it was due to shortage of staff (seem to recall something of that sort).


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Siskin said:


> I understand it's your choice etc, but it's people like you that have taken all the spare beds in the hospital as they are disparately ill with Covid and I can't have an urgent operation.


To be honest that's totally unfair!
I understand your frustration due to your circumstances but don't blame it on non-vaccinated patients. The NHS has been in one crisis or another for years, especially over winter... Covid just exposed how bad things are.
There are roughly 8000-9000 (vaccinated or not) people in hospital with Covid at this time in all of the UK, they are not stopping you having your operation! The system is.

To go back to the point of the thread, the care industry has had major problems recruiting staff for years. It's a massively undervalued, underpaid, skilled job that takes a special person to do...I couldn't do it.
So the Gov, in it's wisdom (or lack of) decided to make vaccines mandatory or people lose their jobs. That's how to make things better, NOT!!!
What we will have now are people taking up hospital beds who are medically fine & should be moved out to care facilities but can't be because there isn't the staff to look after them... the term "bed blockers" comes to mind.
Now they are expanding this to the NHS, we already have a shortage of nurses/beds, growing waiting list, A&E problems, 999 delays....losing un-vaccinated front line workers is going to help how?

I'm double jabbed & have booked my booster, to protect me, but I support anyone who exercises their right to refuse any/all elective medical treatment.


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

Playing Devil's Advocate here: if there is a basic right for people working in care facilities/hospitals to choose not to be vaccinated, is there a corresponding right for the people receiving the care/treatment not to be tended to by an unvaccinated person?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2021/04/nhs-nightingale-hospitals-worth-money

" The largest Nightingale hospitals were reported to have 4,000 planned beds and would need 16,000 staff at full capacity (a higher staff complement than any hospital in England barring Barts Health NHS Trust and Guy's and St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust). For an NHS that entered the pandemic with 100,000 vacancies this would always have been an eyebrow-raising ask - as there were few supernumerary staff who could move to support the Nightingales without their local hospitals falling over.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

HarlequinCat said:


> I think in those cases when they choose to go into nursing they know to do so they have certain vaccinations, which have been around for years and they know the risks and benefits. Having a vaccination added to that list when they are already in their job, and to keep their job they have to have it, has taken away their choice.


On the one hand that all sounds right but surely you have to accept that this is a brand new disease and you cant plan for it. If I work in a profession where health needs and requirements change surely I should be willing to change with them or change jobs. Medical staff are constantly learning, upgrading, changing procedures and treatments for patients according to changing research the only difference is that this time we are asked to change something for ourselves not our patients!



Calvine said:


> I remember that - they were so proud of having got seven of them ready in record time - then that was the end of that. Not sure if it was due to shortage of staff (seem to recall something of that sort).


yup....they were a dumb idea, and if they'd asked any bog standard Dr, nurse or porter on the 'shop floor' they would of told them that they wouldnt be able to staff them.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

And I'm sorry @Blackadder I can't agree with you. The hospital ran perfectly well prior to Covid, yes there may well be a wait for routine ops but urgent ops were dealt with quickly. I'm not alone, there are a number of us on the ortho's urgent list, there will be other urgent lists in other departments, we are all waiting for the beds which have been taken by unvaccinated Covid patients who it's highly likely wouldn't be there if vaccinated. The big issue with unvaccinated patients is that they are often seriously ill and remain in hospital far longer then the few vaccinated patients who require treatment.
Yes underinvestment plays a part, but this wasn't happening to this extent prior to Covid.

I'm probably going to have to dig into savings to go private if this goes on much longer as I don't intend to become seriously ill and maybe lose my leg due to some thinking their human rights are being infringed. What about my human rights.
And to add here. My son isn't vaccinated as he has been led down the rabbit hole by the conspiracy theorists. When he phoned me last week to enquire after my health he wasn't let off lightly. I'm not about to sit here and allow my feeling about this to go unsaid.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Siskin said:


> And I'm sorry @Blackadder I can't agree with you.


No need to apologise, it's what debate is all about


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Covid passports are a good idea for venues where Covid spreads and places should have the choice of banning people who havent had the jabs.


How will "passports" help given it's accepted that double vaxxed can catch & transmit the virus?

Germany has mandatory masks & proof of covid status (negative test/cert of double jab) yet is currently seeing cases of 50,000 per day.



> According to the Robert Koch Institute of Health Surveillance, there were 50,196 additional COVID-19 cases in the last 24 hours, with 235 deaths.


https://www.euronews.com/2021/11/11/germany-records-50-000-covid-19-cases-in-dramatic-virus-surge



> Most recently Germany has introduced a 2G and 3G system, creating a division between tested persons (3G) and vaccinated or recovered people (2G).
> 
> Entrance to public places is limited if a person cannot provide verification of either their 2G or 3G status.


https://www.covidpasscertificate.com/germany-take-vaccine-passport/


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

JANICE199 said:


> *For what it's worth i personally don't think anyone should be made to have any jabs. Once we start this where will it end? I haven't had the covid jabs and don't intend to. But that's my choice, and people should always have a choice.*


If it is just yourself you are putting at risk then you are entitled to make that choice. But by choosing to not be vaccinated against one of the most lethal viruses we have ever encountered you are putting everyone you come into contact with at risk, and they, unwittingly, are putting all those people they come into contact with at risk too. Ad infinitum!!!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Cully said:


> If it is just yourself you are putting at risk then you are entitled to make that choice. But by choosing to not be vaccinated against the most lethal virus we have ever encountered you are putting everyone you come into contact with at risk, and they, unwittingly, are putting all those people they come into contact with at risk too. Ad infinitum!!!


*If people are vaccinated and come into contact with me how will that affect them, and if it does then what good is the vaccine? *


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cully said:


> If it is just yourself you are putting at risk then you are entitled to make that choice. But by choosing to not be vaccinated against the most lethal virus we have ever encountered you are putting everyone you come into contact with at risk, and they, unwittingly, are putting all those people they come into contact with at risk too. Ad infinitum!!!


Covid is not the most lethal virus we've ever encountered. Not even close. 
Rabies is a virus, pretty much 100% fatal. 
Smallpox is a virus, ranges from 30% to 100% fatal depending on the type.

That said, last I checked, England doesn't even have rabies anymore, and I imagine many NHS workers aren't vaccinated against small pox either. Because vaccines work


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Covid is not the most lethal virus we've ever encountered. Not even close.
> Rabies is a virus, pretty much 100% fatal.
> Smallpox is a virus, ranges from 30% to 100% fatal depending on the type.
> 
> That said, last I checked, England doesn't even have rabies anymore, and I imagine many NHS workers aren't vaccinated against small pox either. Because vaccines work


Actually I think the most lethal virus we've had was the Bubonic plague .


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *If people are vaccinated and come into contact with me how will that affect them, and if it does then what good is the vaccine? *


It wont prevent you catching it 100%, what it will do if lessen the chance you become seriously ill/dead if you do get it. 
Personally I would be kicking myself if I wasnt vaccinated and then died of covid....



kimthecat said:


> Actually I think the most lethal virus we've had was the Bubonic plague .


Pretty sure we didnt have vaccines back in the Dark Ages...hence the 'most lethal'.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> It wont prevent you catching it 100%, what it will do if lessen the chance you become seriously ill/dead if you do get it.
> Personally I would be kicking myself if I wasnt vaccinated and then died of covid....
> 
> *Ah, now there ls a problem for me, you say " it lessens the chance of you becoming seriously ill/dead" . So it's not a given fact? Hand on heart i am not being blasé about this, i genuinely want to know. If i have doubts about ANYTHING i like to be able to weigh up the pros and cons as i see them.*


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Actually I think the most lethal virus we've had was the Bubonic plague .


It still exists in developing countries even parts of the Americas have plague and is actually treated with antibiotics as its bacteria infection not viral


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> Actually I think the most lethal virus we've had was the Bubonic plague .


Plague is a bacteria, not a virus


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Covid is not the most lethal virus we've ever encountered. Not even close.
> Rabies is a virus, pretty much 100% fatal.
> Smallpox is a virus, ranges from 30% to 100% fatal depending on the type.
> 
> That said, last I checked, England doesn't even have rabies anymore, and I imagine many NHS workers aren't vaccinated against small pox either. Because vaccines work


I don't think we appreciate how fortunate we are that a vaccine for Covid became available so quickly and by doing so, saved millions of lives. For those who don't wish to be vaccinated then that's your decision! But don't expect any sympathy from me if you contract the virus and end up sick or even worse on a ventilator. You made your bed and you'll have to lie on it as far as I'm concerned!

I might sound harsh but if there had been a vaccine for Hep C, which there still isn't, or treatment available some 15 years ago, which there wasn't, then my younger son would no doubt still be alive today. Instead I had to watch him suffer a long and painful death. Something I'd never wish on anyone, It's painful beyond belief!

Just to add my son contracted the virus as a young child whilst undergoing a routine surgery in hospital.


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Covid is not the most lethal virus we've ever encountered. Not even close.
> Rabies is a virus, pretty much 100% fatal.
> Smallpox is a virus, ranges from 30% to 100% fatal depending on the type.
> 
> That said, last I checked, England doesn't even have rabies anymore, and I imagine many NHS workers aren't vaccinated against small pox either. Because vaccines work


Ok, I was was just trying to make a point but should have said '_one_ of the most lethal viruses'. As you say, 'vaccines work '. They would almost certainly have worked quicker and saved more lives if once available were taken up by everyone at that time. As no doubt will be shown to be the case with covid.


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> I don't think we appreciate how fortunate we are that a vaccine for Covid became available so quickly and by doing so, saved millions of lives. For those who don't wish to be vaccinated then that's your decision! But don't expect any sympathy from me if you contract the virus and end up sick or even worse on a ventilator. You made your bed and you'll have to lie on it as far as I'm concerned!
> 
> I might sound harsh but if there had been a vaccine for Hep C, which there still isn't, or treatment available some 15 years ago, which there wasn't, then my younger son would no doubt still be alive today. Instead I had to watch him suffer a long and painful death. Something I'd never wish on anyone, It's painful beyond belief!
> 
> Just to add my son contracted the virus as a young child whilst undergoing a routine surgery in hospital.


I am so sorry to hear about your son. I'm fully in agreement with you about vaccines: my great aunt lost her eldest son to measles, and years later my mother was blinded in one eye due to contracting measles at the age of three - both pre-vaccine days. A friend was crippled by polio the year before the Salk vaccine was available. And Covid took three friends of mine, all from the same family: again this was before the vaccine was available.

I made sure I was vaccinated against Covid as soon as it was available: because of the OH's underlying health issues we sheltered for as long as possible. And we still wear masks in public places.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Magyarmum said:


> I don't think we appreciate how fortunate we are that a vaccine for Covid became available so quickly and by doing so, saved millions of lives. For those who don't wish to be vaccinated then that's your decision! But don't expect any sympathy from me if you contract the virus and end up sick or even worse on a ventilator. You made your bed and you'll have to lie on it as far as I'm concerned!
> 
> I might sound harsh but if there had been a vaccine for Hep C, which there still isn't, or treatment available some 15 years ago, which there wasn't, then my younger son would no doubt still be alive today. Instead I had to watch him suffer a long and painful death. Something I'd never wish on anyone, It's painful beyond belief!
> 
> Just to add my son contracted the virus as a young child whilst undergoing a routine surgery in hospital.


*In your reply as i've highlighted you say how quickly the vaccine became available and that is just one of my worries. Shame they haven't done the same for cancer.*


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *In your reply as i've highlighted you say how quickly the vaccine became available and that is just one of my worries. Shame they haven't done the same for cancer.*


It doesnt worry me....it just makes me think how far we would be along in other research for various disease and illnesses if they had the kind of manpower and money that covid had. You're right though, I bet cancer research would be alot further along.
Must be very hard if you are trying to do research on lesser known or 'unpopular' disease (I wonder if research for AIDS/HIV would of been difficult given the stigma around the disease at the time).

But the vaccine def increases your chances of survival. Although I work in a hospital I dont see covid pts that much but a friend who deals with them constantly says that nearly all the admissions are unvaccinated and they are all the ones who are sickest and take longer to recover (if at all).
I get that people worry about long term side effects and unknown complications but as far as I can see the short term side effects and known complications of covid are potentially life changing and can result in death. Im going to worry about the thing that could kill me today rather then the possibility of something killing me decades from now!


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

JANICE199 said:


> *In your reply as i've highlighted you say how quickly the vaccine became available and that is just one of my worries. Shame they haven't done the same for cancer.*


The vaccine became available quickly because the scientists weren't starting from scratch: this is from "Nature" (full article at https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1) - other scientific journals confirm this.

"The research that helped to develop vaccines against the new coronavirus didn't start in January. For years, researchers had been paying attention to related coronaviruses, which cause SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) and MERS (Middle East respiratory syndrome), and some had been working on new kinds of vaccine - an effort that has now paid off spectacularly."


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cully said:


> Ok, I was was just trying to make a point but should have said '_one_ of the most lethal viruses'.


But it's not even _one_ of the more lethal ones. It's actually one of the more survivable viruses out there. 
I'm not minimizing the deaths that have happened, just trying to be accurate with information. Most people who get covid, vaccinated or not, will survive it.

I think we need to be very careful when we make arguments for vaccination. There are enough people out there arguing against vaccination, and false claims like how lethal covid is, just adds ammunition to the "they're lying to us" campaigns. 
Covid-19 is not a very lethal virus. It's a very contagious virus (though I think we still have a lot to learn about how it spreads), and we have no clue what the long-term effects of infection could be. 
There are plenty of good reasons to vaccinate, excellent reasons. And lots of reasons to fear getting infected with covid-19. No need to hyperbolize


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

JANICE199 said:


> *In your reply as i've highlighted you say how quickly the vaccine became available and that is just one of my worries. Shame they haven't done the same for cancer.*


I said " how quickly the vaccine became available" rather than "how quickly the vaccine was developed" quite deliberately.

Actually @tyg'smum has just answered your question for me, so I'll leave it that.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I think that one of the dangers is people who don’t trust the vaccine are going to be even more wary if they see medical personnel choosing to lose their jobs rather than have it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> There are plenty of good reasons to vaccinate, excellent reasons. And lots of reasons to fear getting infected with covid-19. No need to hyperbolize


I think alot of the problem is alot of people dont get particularly sick with it and so figure its no big deal (even now its that thought process of 'but thats other people, it wont happen to me!').
The scary thing to me is that anybody is at risk. I know when I had it it was the most sick and scared Ive ever been in my life and Id never had worse then a cold before that. A perfectly fit and healthy friend now has PTSD and long term health complications after spending months in ITU and needing to be resuscitated. She had no reason to think a simple virus would do that to her.

TBF though the only healthcare workers Ive met who havent been vaccinated are not antivax...they are either allergic to the vaccine or havent got round to booking their jab yet!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> It still exists in developing countries even parts of the Americas have plague and is actually treated with antibiotics as its bacteria infection not viral


 TB is treated with anti -biotics too.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

JANICE199 said:


> *In your reply as i've highlighted you say how quickly the vaccine became available and that is just one of my worries. Shame they haven't done the same for cancer.*


Cancer's a much more complex system as there is no infection happening. Cancer is also triggered by many exogenous and endogenous factors which we currently are not certain of.

The speed at which the vaccine was developed was because coronaviruses already have a well established area of research as do viral infections in general. Additionally, cancer has not brought the economy to a halt in the way that covid has.

Research is wholly dependent on funding and research institutions are at the mercy of their countries government to decide whether studies can go forward. The research into the covid vaccine was pushed by governments unlike any other body of research and similar results are likely obtainable with other conditions it is just a matter of funding and global collaboration between scientists. Science typically happens very slowly due to these reasons unfortunately.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *In your reply as i've highlighted you say how quickly the vaccine became available and that is just one of my worries. Shame they haven't done the same for cancer.*


What's with the eye roll . Cancer's not a joke.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Personally, I think care and NHS staff should be required to have vaccinations. There is definitely an issue with a lack of healthcare staff in the UK and that's down to the government and the fact that these jobs are generally not appealing unless you have a serious dedication to helping people and are willing to sacrifice your own wellbeing at times for others. Fundamentally though I believe that if you work in healthcare your role is to minimise harm to patients and to maximise improvements to the quality of life a patient experiences. Putting patients at risk of covid goes against this, obviously. 

I understand that most people don't like change and that there has been a lot of claims made about the vaccine's safety. I can understand that working in a field that you love and suddenly being faced with an ultimatum you don't feel comfortable complying with must be heartbreaking. I think most people go into these professions because they have a genuine interest and enthusiasm for it and losing something so precious is going to hurt. 

I think it's important to educate yourself on the scientific evidence behind the vaccine's safety/lack of safety as an informed opinion is best. I know that for doctors at least, one of the expectations is that you keep up to date with newly published data. If someone has digested the information from a wide variety of genuine scientific journals and came to the conclusion that they are not comfortable having the vaccine then I personally cannot fault them. I don't think they should work with patients due to the risk of transmission and the fact that most patients in hospitals are very vulnerable and at risk of dying from sepsis. 

That's my personal belief and I can appreciate that current healthcare workers may feel like they are putting their safety at risk to keep their job. It is a very stuck in the middle of a rock and a hard place situation.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> TB is treated with anti -biotics too.


Because tuberculosis is caused by a bacteria. 
We owe a lot to Alexander Fleming!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

The cancer I had (I’m hoping that remains past tense) is rare and there is no rhyme or reason why I developed it. Nothing I did or didn’t do in my life caused it and it’s not genetic, I just drew the short straw along with about 300 or so other people it occurs in each year. No vaccine could prevent it occurring and the only treatment is removal.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Because tuberculosis is caused by a bacteria.
> We owe a lot to Alexander Fleming!


We do indeed! and Robert Jenner too for smallpox vax and the young boy he experimented on .


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> . You made your bed and you'll have to lie on it


As long as it's their OWN bed and not a hospital bed. That's what sticks in my throat. Don't believe in Covid, won't have the vaccine then expect to be cared for if they end up ill with it.

I'm very sorry to read about your son Magyarmum


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> We do indeed! and Robert Jenner too for smallpox vax and the young boy he experimented on .


Have you heard of the Balmis expedition? Funded by the Spanish, Javier Balmis took 22 orphaned boys subsequently infected with cowpox so that they could bring the cowpox inoculation against smallpox to the new world.

It's incredible sometimes to think what people have done and suffered to make vaccines available and here we have a very safe, incredibly effective vaccine that people are hesitant to take.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Have you heard of the Balmis expedition? Funded by the Spanish, Javier Balmis took 22 orphaned boys subsequently infected with cowpox so that they could bring the cowpox inoculation against smallpox to the new world.
> 
> It's incredible sometimes to think what people have done and suffered to make vaccines available and here we have a very safe, incredibly effective vaccine that people are hesitant to take.


No. I hadn't . It's shocking that children were treated like this but we have benefited from it .


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Personally I would be kicking myself if I wasnt vaccinated and then died of covid.


You wouldn't be kicking yourself too hard if you were dead though!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

SbanR said:


> Don't believe in Covid, won't have the vaccine then expect to be cared for


 I am not contradicting you at all, but surely many people/patients fall into that category. Smokers who get lung cancer expect to be treated and cared for - alcoholics would expect treatment for booze-related conditions. I agree that the more people are vaccinated, the quicker Covid will be ''under control'' and what I really hate is anti-vaxxers trying to talk others out of it. OK, so they have their own views, maybe bonkers, maybe not, but at least don't try to influence others in their decision.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Calvine said:


> You wouldn't be kicking yourself too hard if you were dead though!


Thats the point though....Id be so annoyed Id literally be kicking myself from beyond the grave!!LOL:Hilarious



Calvine said:


> I am not contradicting you at all, but surely many people/patients fall into that category. Smokers who get lung cancer expect to be treated and cared for - alcoholics would expect treatment for booze-related conditions. I agree that the more people are vaccinated, the quicker Covid will be ''under control'' and what I really hate is anti-vaxxers trying to talk others out of it. OK, so they have their own views, maybe bonkers, maybe not, but at least don't try to influence others in their decision.


Sometimes you really do wonder what you are trying to achieve with some people. Like smokers who cant survive without oxygen and yet go home without it coz they wont give smoking. People admitted with alcohol withdrawal who end up kicked out of hospital coz they were getting booze delivered and getting off their face on the ward....
or people with covid who still refused to believe it was a real thing even as they were dying.
It does sometimes seem like people have some sort of inbuilt self destruct button. Thankfully most of us dont press it!


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

catz4m8z said:


> Sometimes you really do wonder what you are trying to achieve with some people. Like smokers who cant survive without oxygen and yet go home without it coz they wont give smoking. People admitted with alcohol withdrawal who end up kicked out of hospital coz they were getting booze delivered and getting off their face on the ward....
> or people with covid who still refused to believe it was a real thing even as they were dying.
> It does sometimes seem like people have some sort of inbuilt self destruct button. Thankfully most of us dont press it!


Isn't that what it means to be human? None of us are perfect.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I think _Prímum non nocere _still stands?

In this cases the decision should be following the medical authorities' advice.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> I think _Prímum non nocere _still stands?
> 
> In this cases the decision should be following the medical authorities' advice.


I've been thinking this too


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

catz4m8z said:


> Thats the point though....Id be so annoyed Id literally be kicking myself from beyond the grave!!LOL:Hilarious
> 
> Sometimes you really do wonder what you are trying to achieve with some people. Like smokers who cant survive without oxygen and yet go home without it coz they wont give smoking. People admitted with alcohol withdrawal who end up kicked out of hospital coz they were getting booze delivered and getting off their face on the ward....
> or people with covid who still refused to believe it was a real thing even as they were dying.
> It does sometimes seem like people have some sort of inbuilt self destruct button. Thankfully most of us dont press it!


I do see your point but I think the main reason people are giving into fear-mongering surrounding covid and refusing vaccination is because they are vulnerable and there is a lack of effective education. I think the public are not well educated on science and this can prove to be a barrier as it promotes suspicion and disbelief. Additionally, most people tend to not trust politicians and they are the ones enacting these laws and guidances, rousing further suspicion.

A lot of vulnerable people can be led into believing lies told to them online, in newspapers, and from those they know and trust in person. Most people have a desire to follow the herd and trust the people they know, so I think if someone has a few friends who are saying the vaccines are not safe then that someone is at risk of following along with their rhetoric.

Certain pages/influencers prey on these vulnerable people to instil pseudo-science and lies into their minds. An example is the belief that you should drink alkaline water. So many people follow this belief (when it has no scientific basis) because there is fear-mongering online that you need to avoid acidic foods/drinks as they may cause cancer. Also, as most people have limited understanding of science they cannot differentiate between a genuine treatment and an ineffective treatment (how many people do you see wearing copper bracelets for arthritis- there is no robust evidence behind it's supposed effects).

People will distrust a vaccine that seems rushed (to some) and is supported by a government with dubious morals (to some) but then see an online post claiming that a home remedy can prevent infection and they will follow that because it is written by someone much more relatable (ie- trustworthy) and written in an understandable (and manipulative) format.

I think there is a belief in many (my observations are young people and men) that they either won't catch it or won't be affected if they do. I think there are many many factors behind this and each factor should be addressed.

I don't think anyone wants to see themselves get unwell or end up on ventilators and die in a coma, I think it is just that they do not perceive it as a serious enough risk due to the factors I've spoken about.

And for addiction that can happen to anyone. There is evidence that some people are more susceptible to it due to physiological differences but really everyone is hardwired to seek pleasure and these drugs hijack that system. A lot of people do not have the support system and environmental conditions to promote recovery unfortunately but that's an entirely different issue.

Sorry for the ramble, I am incredibly interested in socioeconomic factors and their impact on medicine and I really believe it needs to be at the heart of programmes like the vaccine rollout. As before I do see your point but I think there are so many factors involved which we must consider. My post is not intended to be inflammatory so I would like to include that, I would just like to open up the conversation to other angles as to why people are refusing vaccines.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> What's with the eye roll . Cancer's not a joke.


*I did not think rolling eyes was a sign of something funny. As for cancer not being a joke, i know that only to well thank you.*


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

bmr10 said:


> I do see your point but I think the main reason people are giving into fear-mongering surrounding covid and refusing vaccination is because they are vulnerable and there is a lack of effective education. I think the public are not well educated on science and this can prove to be a barrier as it promotes suspicion and disbelief. Additionally, most people tend to not trust politicians and they are the ones enacting these laws and guidances, rousing further suspicion. A lot of vulnerable people can be led into believing lies told to them online, in newspapers, and from those they know and trust in person. Most people have a desire to follow the herd and trust the people they know, so I think if someone has a few friends who are saying the vaccines are not safe then that someone is at risk of following along with their rhetoric. Certain pages/influencers prey on these vulnerable people to instil pseudo-science and lies into their minds. An example is the belief that you should drink alkaline water. So many people follow this belief (when it has no scientific basis) because there is fear-mongering online that you need to avoid acidic foods/drinks as they may cause cancer. Also, as most people have limited understanding of science they cannot differentiate between a genuine treatment and an ineffective treatment (how many people do you see wearing copper bracelets for arthritis- there is no robust evidence behind it's supposed effects). People will distrust a vaccine that seems rushed (to some) and is supported by a government with dubious morals (to some) but then see an online post claiming that a home remedy can prevent infection and they will follow that because it is written by someone much more relatable (ie- trustworthy) and written in an understandable (and manipulative) format. I think there is a belief in many (my observations are young people and men) that they either won't catch it or won't be affected if they do. I think there are many many factors behind this and each factor should be addressed. I don't think anyone wants to see themselves get unwell or end up on ventilators and die in a coma, I think it is just that they do not perceive it as a serious enough risk due to the factors I've spoken about.
> 
> And for addiction that can happen to anyone. There is evidence that some people are more susceptible to it due to physiological differences but really everyone is hardwired to seek pleasure and these drugs hijack that system. A lot of people do not have the support system and environmental conditions to promote recovery unfortunately but that's an entirely different issue.
> 
> Sorry for the ramble, I am incredibly interested in socioeconomic factors and their impact on medicine and I really believe it needs to be at the heart of programmes like the vaccine rollout. As before I do see your point but I think there are so many factors involved which we must consider. My post is not intended to be inflammatory so I would like to include that, I would just like to open up the conversation to other angles as to why people are refusing vaccines.


Couldn't agree more. Education is so important, understanding how the vaccine was designed.

I don't think people are refusing the jab because they are selfish. I think the majority of it is fear some will have MH difficulties. There have been side effects of from this vaccine and of course this has been built up in the media. I should imagine people will take it up more and more as time goes on.

The anti vaxers have the perfect audience because we have a complete lack of leadership and people don't trust the government.

So NHS staff will lose their job if they don't get vaccinated because we need to protect those in hospital when they are at their most vulnerable and yet our Prime Minister strolls around hospitals with no mask. The anti vaxers/ Covid doesn't exist folk have so much material.

Ive worked as a care worker it is an amazing job I loved it. However it was hard work, low pay, long hours. We struggled to recruit and were often short staffed. In my opinion running below staffing capacity is more dangerous than havIng unvaccinated staff working for them. If I was in hospital I would prefer someone unvaccinated than no one.

Where are the staff coming from to replace these workers ?


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

But aren't nurses educated? And are not generally anti Vax as they are already vaccinated against other things. Just curious really.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

HarlequinCat said:


> But aren't nurses educated? And are not generally anti Vax as they are already vaccinated against other things. Just curious really.


TBH I've not spoken to any nurses who haven't had it so can't speak for them. However most people I know who aren't vaccinated have had other vaccinations and aren't anti-vax just feel this is to new to judge.

There have been documented reports of it messing with menstrual cycles. If I was younger and wanted children this would give me pause for thought.

As it was I'm under 40 was told AZ was safe had the first dose then it changed and said under 40s should have a different one. I was terrified going for my second jab. I'm not stupid or selfish but was scared. In the end I went but I can see why people wouldn't. My doctor was amazing and spent time talking to me about it. I have the luxury of a small village GP many don't.

I just think the issue is to complex just to label people selfish. Of course in an ideal world all medical staff would be vaccinated.

The NHS are facing a recruitment crisis; they have worked tirelessly through a pandemic, no PPE to start working in bin bags, been thanked with a clap and 1% pay rise now are being threatened with their jobs no wonder people are leaving in droves many have been diagnosed with PTSD.

There has to be another way.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

HarlequinCat said:


> But aren't nurses educated? And are not generally anti Vax as they are already vaccinated against other things. Just curious really.


I'm not sure if vaccinations (prior to covid) are a requirement as some people can't have certain vaccinations anyway. I don't think nurses are educated on viral replication, rna, transcription and translation, etc etc. I've never taken a nursing course but I do remember as a child asking my nurse what phosphate was used for in the body (my phosphate at the time was low) and she told me they weren't taught about things like that. I've had a consultant shocked when I was showing him homework I was doing in school regarding bacterial culture in agar, despite bacterial cultures being a very basic routine task in biological science.

I think there are limits to what each profession is taught and I think because working in healthcare is so demanding you are only taught what is required for your job.

This is based on my experiences and again, I have not studied a nursing degree but I would presume they are taught that vaccines provide a degree of immunity as the body responds to the virus within. This is good but if someone is worried about how the vaccine interacts with cells in their body then they're going to need a more molecular knowledge which isn't easily attainable for most.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

HarlequinCat said:


> But aren't nurses educated? And are not generally anti Vax as they are already vaccinated against other things. Just curious really.


I think alot of the problems arent necessarily the degree qualified registered nurses but the health care assistants and carers who dont get the same level of education. We still desperately need those people as they provide alot of the care needs for patients. (not that I can make any judgements....I only managed to scrape into nursing coz they had super low standards for how intelligent you had to be at the time!LOL:Hilarious).

It is interesting how people are influenced and swayed by social media and the internet though. I mean for me personally I will Google to find out who is the most qualified and respected person in a field then listen to that persons opinion. It wouldnt occur to me to trust the person I follow for lifestyle tips or gaming news about vaccines or viruses. And yet people do seem to follow the advice of totally unqualified 'influencers'.
I wonder if the internet/social media is making us more susceptible to suggestion?:Bored


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

catz4m8z said:


> I think alot of the problems arent necessarily the degree qualified registered nurses but the health care assistants and carers who dont get the same level of education. We still desperately need those people as they provide alot of the care needs for patients. (not that I can make any judgements....I only managed to scrape into nursing coz they had super low standards for how intelligent you had to be at the time!LOL:Hilarious).
> 
> It is interesting how people are influenced and swayed by social media and the internet though. I mean for me personally I will Google to find out who is the most qualified and respected person in a field then listen to that persons opinion. It wouldnt occur to me to trust the person I follow for lifestyle tips or gaming news about vaccines or viruses. And yet people do seem to follow the advice of totally unqualified 'influencers'.
> I wonder if the internet/social media is making us more susceptible to suggestion?:Bored


I think it does this is the first pandemic in times of social media. Suddenly everyone is an expert on viruses and pandemics and they scare people.

Saying that the majority of folk I know who haven't had the vaccine are not googling or being influenced they simply say it's to new for them to be comfortable with.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I did not think rolling eyes was a sign of something funny. As for cancer not being a joke, i know that only to well thank you.*


So do I and others on here, thank you . That why I commented on it .


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Cully said:


> For the purpose of identity let's call him.....er....... Dick.


This is true: years ago I worked with someone whose surname was Head and, unbelievably, she had a son called Richard. She had honestly never heard the expression ''********'' apparently. I often wondered if the poor chap changed his name. ''Dick'' by itself is bad enough (sorry, @Dick Tracy), but the full caboodle must have been difficult for him to live with.


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## Cully (May 16, 2018)

Calvine said:


> This is true: years ago I worked with someone whose surname was Head and, unbelievably, she had a son called Richard. She had honestly never heard the expression ''********'' apparently. I often wondered if the poor chap changed his name. ''Dick'' by itself is bad enough (sorry, @Dick Tracy), but the full caboodle must have been difficult for him to live with.


I wonder if Mr Turpin or Mr Whittington had trouble.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> I think alot of the problem is alot of people dont get particularly sick with it and so figure its no big deal (even now its that thought process of 'but thats other people, it wont happen to me!').
> The scary thing to me is that anybody is at risk. I know when I had it it was the most sick and scared Ive ever been in my life and Id never had worse then a cold before that. A perfectly fit and healthy friend now has PTSD and long term health complications after spending months in ITU and needing to be resuscitated. She had no reason to think a simple virus would do that to her.
> 
> TBF though the only healthcare workers Ive met who havent been vaccinated are not antivax...they are either allergic to the vaccine or havent got round to booking their jab yet!


I'm sure you're right

It's my friend's birthday today and to celebrate, he and his wife have gone to have lunch in a large very popular, restaurant in town which at the weekend is always packed to the gills. The wife hasn't been vaccinated yet, and from what I gather doesn't seem to be in the least bit worried.that she might become infected or if she is already asymptomatic could infect others.

Our new infection rate has rocketed over the past few week and is now over 7000 people each day. The hospital's are full of mostly unvaccinated patients, some of whom are fairly young. I'm afraid knowing the figures, despite being double jabbed and having had the booster, much as I'd like to, the last thing I'd do is to be eating lunch in a busy restaurant.


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

Each are entitled their views on this topic,. These are bound to vary and who is to say which ones are right. Do we trust the medical experts? Who have , let's remember been gravely wrong in the past, do we go with our own beliefs, are we guided by religion or do we listen to social media and whatever conspiracy theory Tom, Dick and Harry decide to spew out?

My own views are, with the exception of those who cannot have the vaccine due to potential serious health implications that everyone should have it.

I am sure there will be many who will disagree with me on this and I am sure what I am going to say will no doubt make me unpopular in that I also think that should the NHS see another crisis whereby they are short of ventilators then preference over equipment, beds, ventilators etc should be given to those whom have taken every possible precaution to prevent the virus spreading.


So in reply to the question, yes, I think they should
Guess that went down like a lead balloon .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *In your reply as i've highlighted you say how quickly the vaccine became available and that is just one of my worries. Shame they haven't done the same for cancer.*


Five weeks left to watch the development of the vaccine by AZ here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000qdzd

And just adding in a Full Fact link so people can check and learn more from this independent fact checking site
https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus/?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=trending#vaccines


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

OH came and told me that one of the columnists in the Times has written a strongly voiced piece about those who won’t get vaccinated, as opposed to those who can’t. Apparently friends have refused the vaccinations and no amounts of persuasion would change their minds. They both work in hospital, her in ICU. Both caught Covid and were hospitalised and he has since died. There was no mention whether she had changed her mind (no point in me putting up a link as you will have to pay to view) Very sad, but it’s very difficult not to point the finger and say it’s your own fault.


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

Siskin said:


> OH came and told me that one of the columnists in the Times has written a strongly voiced piece about those who won't get vaccinated, as opposed to those who can't. Apparently friends have refused the vaccinations and no amounts of persuasion would change their minds. They both work in hospital, her in ICU. Both caught Covid and were hospitalised and he has since died. There was no mention whether she had changed her mind (no point in me putting up a link as you will have to pay to view) Very sad, but it's very difficult not to point the finger and say it's your own fault.


The mind boggles. If she worked in ICU, surely she would have nursed Covid patients. And yet she refused to have the vaccinations?!?!?!!!!!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

SbanR said:


> The mind boggles. If she worked in ICU, surely she would have nursed Covid patients. And yet she refused to have the vaccinations?!?!?!!!!!


I know, it's seems unbelievable. I'm only going on what my husband said about the article, but he's unlikely to get that bit wrong


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Dick Tracy said:


> Each are entitled their views on this topic,. These are bound to vary and who is to say which ones are right. Do we trust the medical experts? Who have , let's remember been gravely wrong in the past, do we go with our own beliefs, are we guided by religion or do we listen to social media and whatever conspiracy theory Tom, Dick and Harry decide to spew out?
> 
> My own views are, with the exception of those who cannot have the vaccine due to potential serious health implications that everyone should have it.
> 
> ...


I agree with you partially but I do not think a medical professional should prioritise patients based on their own moral compass. I don't believe it's anyone's job to play God. A patient admitted to ICU with covid could be 70, have no access to the internet and scientific articles, from a background of low educational attainment, and those that they call friends/family may be against the vaccine. It is not unlikely that this person may tend to believe what those close to them say surrounding covid. If this person had access to unbiased scientific journals or the internet which provides other points of view then they may have come to a different conclusion regarding vaccination. I think it is very easy to be frustrated with people who have seemed to cause their own negative circumstances but I don't think it is anyone's job to decide whether someone receives medical treatment and lives or dies based upon this frustration. There are instances of people being refused medical treatment (abortions comes to mind) because a medical provider has decided the situation is the patient's fault and I'm not confident that that's the way forward. I don't think we can come to conclusions based on the limited information we know about strangers and I don't think that we can rule out the possibility that if someone had been exposed to different circumstances, their future actions would be different. And in the case that their future actions wouldn't be different, then I still don't think we can boil a human's right to live down to whether they follow medical advice or not. Otherwise, the majority of people within the UK would be refused medical treatment for illnesses linked to obesity/overweight-ness, such as cardiac disease- one of the leading causes of death here.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

bmr10 said:


> I agree with you partially but I do not think a medical professional should prioritise patients based on their own moral compass. I don't believe it's anyone's job to play God. A patient admitted to ICU with covid could be 70, have no access to the internet and scientific articles, from a background of low educational attainment, and those that they call friends/family may be against the vaccine. It is not unlikely that this person may tend to believe what those close to them say surrounding covid. If this person had access to unbiased scientific journals or the internet which provides other points of view then they may have come to a different conclusion regarding vaccination. I think it is very easy to be frustrated with people who have seemed to cause their own negative circumstances but I don't think it is anyone's job to decide whether someone receives medical treatment and lives or dies based upon this frustration. There are instances of people being refused medical treatment (abortions comes to mind) because a medical provider has decided the situation is the patient's fault and I'm not confident that that's the way forward. I don't think we can come to conclusions based on the limited information we know about strangers and I don't think that we can rule out the possibility that if someone had been exposed to different circumstances, their future actions would be different. And in the case that their future actions wouldn't be different, then I still don't think we can boil a human's right to live down to whether they follow medical advice or not. Otherwise, the majority of people within the UK would be refused medical treatment for illnesses linked to obesity/overweight-ness, such as cardiac disease- one of the leading causes of death here.


i don't disagree with you but what I do query is your using over 70 year olds as an example of being ignorant due to a lack of computer skills. I'm well over 70 as are most of my friends and numerous PF members. I can only think of a couple of my contemporaries who are not computer literate.

Certainly here in Hungary the over 65's with a few exceptions were first in the queue to get their vaccinations. It's noticeable as well, now the new infection rate have risen, the 65 plus are the first to start wearing masks again.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> i don't disagree with you but what I do query is your using over 70 year olds as an example of being ignorant due to a lack of computer skills. I'm well over 70 as are most of my friends and numerous PF members. I can only think of a couple of my contemporaries who are not computer literate.
> 
> Certainly here in Hungary the over 65's with a few exceptions were first in the queue to get their vaccinations. It's noticeable as well, now the new infection rate have risen, the 65 plus are the first to start wearing masks again.


Now now............they will point out to you that they used the word could...........you know, that good old get out clause used by those that are covering their backs


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

rona said:


> Now now............they will point out to you that they used the word could...........you know, that good old get out clause used by those that are covering their backs


I know .... I know!


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

@bmr10 a polite request, not a criticism.

Could you please put a few paragraphs in your posts. 
I find a big chunk of prose very difficult to plow through and often have to go back to try and pick up the thread of your argument. I sometimes give up


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Magyarmum said:


> i don't disagree with you but what I do query is your using over 70 year olds as an example of being ignorant due to a lack of computer skills. I'm well over 70 as are most of my friends and numerous PF members. I can only think of a couple of my contemporaries who are not computer literate.
> 
> Certainly here in Hungary the over 65's with a few exceptions were first in the queue to get their vaccinations. It's noticeable as well, now the new infection rate have risen, the 65 plus are the first to start wearing masks again.


I used that age range as an example as a group of people less likely to have consistent access to the internet than other age groups. It was purely based on statistics as it is factual that the older an individual is the less likely they are to spend significant time online. I don't believe a certain age group is more likely to be against/worried about the vaccine than any other age group(s) and the scenario I provided was intended to illustrate that behind someone's opinion on vaccines there can be a larger picture that has lead to that opinion.

It was a generalisation based on known information about internet usage by age group.

I don't personally think there's anything wrong with being ignorant anyway.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

SbanR said:


> @bmr10 a polite request, not a criticism.
> 
> Could you please put a few paragraphs in your posts.
> I find a big chunk of prose very difficult to plow through and often have to go back to try and pick up the thread of your argument. I sometimes give up


Sorry! I tend to write my posts in different parts and then stitch them together so I forget how they will read for other people. I'll go through and segregate the rest of my posts. I hope they will be more readable and not such a wall of text


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## SbanR (Jun 16, 2017)

bmr10 said:


> Sorry! I tend to write my posts in different parts and then stitch them together so I forget how they will read for other people. I'll go through and segregate the rest of my posts. I hope they will be more readable and not such a wall of text


Thank you.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

bmr10 said:


> Sorry! I tend to write my posts in different parts and then stitch them together so I forget how they will read for other people. I'll go through and segregate the rest of my posts. I hope they will be more readable and not such a wall of text


You make some good points so it would be a shame if the way they are presented means folks aren't reading them


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

bmr10 said:


> I used that age range as an example as a group of people less likely to have consistent access to the internet than other age groups. It was purely based on statistics as it is factual that the older an individual is the less likely they are to spend significant time online. I don't believe a certain age group is more likely to be against/worried about the vaccine than any other age group(s) and the scenario I provided was intended to illustrate that behind someone's opinion on vaccines there can be a larger picture that has lead to that opinion.
> 
> It was a generalisation based on known information about internet usage by age group.
> 
> I don't personally think there's anything wrong with being ignorant anyway.


Statistics also indicate that we "silver surfers" are likely to be more computer savvy than those of a younger generation, particularly those who use computers mainly for gaming. And we who are approaching or over 70 are more likely to remember pre-vaccine days when, for example, polio was a real fear and measles could kill.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

tyg'smum said:


> Statistics also indicate that we "silver surfers" are likely to be more computer savvy than those of a younger generation, particularly those who use computers mainly for gaming. And we who are approaching or over 70 are more likely to remember pre-vaccine days when, for example, polio was a real fear and measles could kill.


I am not sure why there has been a negative(?) reaction to the hypothetical scenario I provided but regardless, nowhere did I claim that those over 70 (or any age group) are more likely to refuse the vaccine or are inept with technology. I used that example because government data shows that a lower percentage of older age groups use the internet in comparison to younger age groups and the internet is a useful source for scientific evidence regarding covid/covid vaccine. This relates to my earlier post concerning the importance of effective education and why I believe it is one of the main reasons many are not following government/NHS guidance regarding the virus.

There are many other variables affecting vaccine uptake I could have provided (and I did by mentioning low educational attainment and the opinion of peers within the same sentence) but the purpose was to show that behind someone's decision there may be various environmental conditions that have led to that and that we should not judge people purely on our impression of them or make decisions. Whether this scenario applies to anyone on the forum or not is beside the point.


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

bmr10 said:


> I am not sure why there has been a negative(?) reaction to the hypothetical scenario I provided but regardless, nowhere did I claim that those over 70 (or any age group) are more likely to refuse the vaccine or are inept with technology. I used that example because government data shows that a lower percentage of older age groups use the internet in comparison to younger age groups and the internet is a useful source for scientific evidence regarding covid/covid vaccine. This relates to my earlier post concerning the importance of effective education and why I believe it is one of the main reasons many are not following government/NHS guidance regarding the virus.
> 
> There are many other variables affecting vaccine uptake I could have provided (and I did by mentioning low educational attainment and the opinion of peers within the same sentence) but the purpose was to show that behind someone's decision there may be various environmental conditions that have led to that and that we should not judge people purely on our impression of them or make decisions. Whether this scenario applies to anyone on the forum or not is beside the point.


Well, you did say (and I quote) "A patient admitted to ICU with covid could be 70, have no access to the internet and scientific articles, from a background of low educational attainment, and those that they call friends/family may be against the vaccine." - which does imply that you are lumping all these variables together.

Nowhere did I suggest that your scenario applied to anyone on the forum.


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't think anyone should be forced to have the vaccine, I do think that we have to protect our most vulnerable and if there is proof that a person who is unvaccinated is much more likely to pass on covid to a patient than someone who has been vaccinated then it should be a requirement for that position. 

I haven't had the vaccine yet, not because I don't want it but because I'm far too anxious to get onto a bus to go a few towns over to where they're doing the vaccine, especially with my vertigo that makes travelling even harder. I've gone back on medication to hopefully get my anxiety and fear of going outside and on public transport under control so I can hopefully eventually travel to get the vaccine.

I've been in contact with my doctors asking if there was any home vaccinations for those with agoraphobia (phobia of going outside) but apparently there isn't, the receptionist told me I wasn't the only one who wanted the vaccine but mental health was preventing them from travelling to get it.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

tyg'smum said:


> Well, you did say (and I quote) "A patient admitted to ICU with covid could be 70, have no access to the internet and scientific articles, from a background of low educational attainment, and those that they call friends/family may be against the vaccine." - which does imply that you are lumping all these variables together.
> 
> Nowhere did I suggest that your scenario applied to anyone on the forum.


I did lump all of those variables together, yes, as the imaginary patient I created was meant to show several different factors which can affect whether someone gets vaccinated or not. There are other factors, obviously, but for this patient, I showed a few that are statistically linked to the age group I randomly chose (older generations do show generally lower educational attainments and internet usage). I am not sure how this has been received negatively as I could have also used a patient who is 36, has anxiety and lives in relative isolation. Neither of these scenarios implies that people who are 70 surround themselves with anti-vaxxers, don't access the internet, and have low educational attainment or that people who are 36 with anxiety live in isolation.

And apologies, I did not mean to claim that you have said the scenario applies to members of the forum. I am just unsure why people have tried to justify that those of older age use the internet when that was not the point of any post I have made. It seems that my words have been taken to have the meaning of "I don't think people over 70 get vaccinated or use the internet". That's purely my interpretation of people's reactions to my post.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I know you gave an imaginary person, but you do seem rather insistent that over 70's are less likely to have the vaccination when it appears in the chart below it's exactly the opposite.










It's older people who are getting vaccinated it would appear.
Several reasons, but the major one I suspect is that we have been vaccinated in the past and had our children vaccinated and these have been successful and prevented disease, so why not.

I have spoken to some people who voice a bit of fear over the speed of development of the vaccine, but on the whole mostly think that the anti Vaxxers are completely nuts and their ideas totally mad.

I know I come from a largely middle class area, but I have spoken to others lately (in hospital where's there's all sorts) and mostly older folk are having the jab. Even if they are not internet savvy most have a tv and radio and have watched programs about the vaccine. Not being computer savvy at least means your not spending time believing what some twerp said on Facebook and believing every word rather then the many eminent scientists.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

This might be useful for those unsure of having the vaccination.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Siskin said:


> I know you gave an imaginary person, but you do seem rather insistent that over 70's are less likely to have the vaccination when it appears in the chart below it's exactly the opposite.
> 
> View attachment 479306
> 
> ...


I don't think I have been insistent at all. On a previous page, I mentioned that younger people seem (in my opinion) to be more likely to have a belief that they won't catch covid/if they do they won't get seriously ill enough to warrant vaccination. I have not stated on this thread that I believe any age group is less/more likely to take up vaccination and my posts don't imply it either. As before, I could have used any age or omitted mention of age entirely in my hypothetical example and the point would still stand. If I had used a different age group and variables I don't think my post would have received the reaction it has and I am unsure why my imaginary patient being 70 has been taken, in my opinion, so personally.

The age of the patient in my example has very little to do with it aside from the fact that two of the variables I mentioned (low internet usage and low educational attainment) are associated with older age groups. These variables can apply to individuals from any age group but they have a higher incidence rate in elderly people, so that is why I used them. I used the age of 70 years because older people are more likely to be admitted to the ICU for covid than younger people.

These variables were linked together to illustrate a common scenario that a doctor may be faced with, and why I believe the doctor should not employ their own moral compass to refuse healthcare and instead question what experiences/conditions have led to the patient refusing a vaccine. By identifying the experiences/conditions that can affect willingness to be vaccinated then we can tackle them and increase the vaccination rate.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

The main reason over 70’s get admitted are due to underlying health conditions rather then vaccine reluctance due to not being internet savvy and of a lower education. 
TV programmes have given a lot of information on Covid and the vaccinations over the past 18 months and this where older people get a lot of information, those that are internet savvy and many over 70’s are, can research further if needs be, after all you don’t need a degree to Google something and a lot of information is given in a more understandable format. 
Neither my husband and I have a university education mainly because not that many went to university in those days and the secondary schools tended to prepare children for work rather then further education as happens now. I don’t regard us as having a lower education especially when I see such terrible spelling and grammar errors from those who have been to university. Having worked with graduates quite frankly I despaired over lack of knowledge and understanding. 

I don't know the ages of those in ICU with Covid in my local hospital, all I know is that the majority are not vaccinated and going by the chart in my previous post, this is less likely to be older people.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

PawsOnMe said:


> I don't think anyone should be forced to have the vaccine, I do think that we have to protect our most vulnerable and if there is proof that a person who is unvaccinated is much more likely to pass on covid to a patient than someone who has been vaccinated then it should be a requirement for that position.
> 
> I haven't had the vaccine yet, not because I don't want it but because I'm far too anxious to get onto a bus to go a few towns over to where they're doing the vaccine, especially with my vertigo that makes travelling even harder. I've gone back on medication to hopefully get my anxiety and fear of going outside and on public transport under control so I can hopefully eventually travel to get the vaccine.
> 
> I've been in contact with my doctors asking if there was any home vaccinations for those with agoraphobia (phobia of going outside) but apparently there isn't, the receptionist told me I wasn't the only one who wanted the vaccine but mental health was preventing them from travelling to get it.


'Im sorry to hear this . Do they do the jab at your Doctors or local chemist ? if the meds work you might be able to make it there.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

PawsOnMe said:


> I don't think anyone should be forced to have the vaccine, I do think that we have to protect our most vulnerable and if there is proof that a person who is unvaccinated is much more likely to pass on covid to a patient than someone who has been vaccinated then it should be a requirement for that position.
> 
> I haven't had the vaccine yet, not because I don't want it but because I'm far too anxious to get onto a bus to go a few towns over to where they're doing the vaccine, especially with my vertigo that makes travelling even harder. I've gone back on medication to hopefully get my anxiety and fear of going outside and on public transport under control so I can hopefully eventually travel to get the vaccine.
> 
> I've been in contact with my doctors asking if there was any home vaccinations for those with agoraphobia (phobia of going outside) but apparently there isn't, the receptionist told me I wasn't the only one who wanted the vaccine but mental health was preventing them from travelling to get it.


Sorry to hear you have been so unwell with your MH it is so hard. Hugs.


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## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

Siskin said:


> The main reason over 70's get admitted are due to underlying health conditions rather then vaccine reluctance due to not being internet savvy and of a lower education.
> TV programmes have given a lot of information on Covid and the vaccinations over the past 18 months and this where older people get a lot of information, those that are internet savvy and many over 70's are, can research further if needs be, after all you don't need a degree to Google something and a lot of information is given in a more understandable format.
> Neither my husband and I have a university education mainly because not that many went to university in those days and the secondary schools tended to prepare children for work rather then further education as happens now. I don't regard us as having a lower education especially when I see such terrible spelling and grammar errors from those who have been to university. Having worked with graduates quite frankly I despaired over lack of knowledge and understanding.
> 
> I don't know the ages of those in ICU with Covid in my local hospital, all I know is that the majority are not vaccinated and going by the chart in my previous post, this is less likely to be older people.


I did not say that over 70's that are admitted with covid to ICU's are admitted because of vaccine reluctance from lack of internet usage or lower educational attainment?? I said in the post you replied to that those variables could be applied to anyone and that I only used them in the age I gave the patient because they are known factors affecting vaccine uptake and also associated with older age. My patient's age was 70 and was admitted to the ICU without having the covid vaccine, so I picked two trends associated with older generations that are also known to impact how willing someone is to be vaccinated.

That does not equal 70-year-olds are less likely to be vaccinated, do not have access to the internet or have no academic qualifications. It also does not mean that 70-year-olds who _are_ admitted to the ICU are admitted because they refused the vaccine due to the variables mentioned.

My replies are tending to repeat the same points as I'm not quite sure how or why my post has been misconstrued. I don't want the thread to be taken over by this and I don't believe there was a cause for issue with my post at all so I will leave this here.

I do hope that people consider my argument that people who seem to have caused their own negative circumstances still deserve empathy and most importantly medical attention, regardless of whether this is for covid (not vaccinated), lung cancer (smoker), obesity (over-eating), coronary artery disease (high-fat diet), naloxone (opiate addict), etc.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

Oh goodness @PawsOnMe I cannot believe that there isn't someone that can help you. Is there no community vaccination service? That seems such an oversight on the part of the vaccination service in your area.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

I didn't read @bmr10 's post as saying over 70s are less likely to be vaccinated, I merely read it as an illustration as to why someone may not be vaccinated (indeed, a combination of factors in her post).

However, anecdotally, in my experience it's the women in their 20s and 30s that aren't being vaccinated (I do think there's a socio-economic link to non-vaccinated women). Several of our friends have children of that age who haven't been jabbed - and can give no real reasoning as to why, beyond "it's new and not tested". It's not FB putting them off as they don't use FB generally.

I keep seeing stories of people in ITU (like the older people with underling medical conditions) and wondering why they aren't vaccinated. Then I saw @PawsOnMe 's post and I guess that accounts for quite a lot of unvaccinated people, if there's not a community vaccination service in their area.

I think I had more of a point but my brain-fog isn't helping me remember it, so I'll stop now.


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> 'Im sorry to hear this . Do they do the jab at your Doctors or local chemist ? if the meds work you might be able to make it there.


No, unfortunately they dont. The doctor's receptionist emailed the person in charge of the covid vaccine programme for our local area and was told that they couldn't help. It does seem like people with mental health illnesses who cannot get out or travel to have the vaccine have been forgotten in this case.



Boxer123 said:


> Sorry to hear you have been so unwell with your MH it is so hard. Hugs.


Thank you x



Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh goodness @PawsOnMe I cannot believe that there isn't someone that can help you. Is there no community vaccination service? That seems such an oversight on the part of the vaccination service in your area.


I know that there are nurses who go to elderly and physically housebound people to give them the vaccine in the local area but unfortunately being unable to leave the house due to ill mental health does not count for the service.


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## Mrs Funkin (Mar 12, 2018)

I think that's terrible, I'm so saddened to read that nobody is prepared to help you. I'm afraid I'd be doing a little bit of rule bending if I was a community vaccinator. Is there not someone in your mental health team that can help you try to organise it? I'm not nagging, really I'm not, I just feel very sad for you. I hope that you are able to get to the point that you can get out to have your vaccination at some point soon.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

PawsOnMe said:


> No, unfortunately they dont. The doctor's receptionist emailed the person in charge of the covid vaccine programme for our local area and was told that they couldn't help. It does seem like people with mental health illnesses who cannot get out or travel to have the vaccine have been forgotten in this case.
> 
> Thank you x
> 
> I know that there are nurses who go to elderly and physically housebound people to give them the vaccine in the local area but unfortunately being unable to leave the house due to ill mental health does not count for the service.


I'd consider contacting the Citizens Advice Bureau or the Equality and Human Rights Commission. It could be disability discrimination to treat someone with a mental health condition differently to someone with a physical condition. It's definitely unfair and not right.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

PawsOnMe said:


> No, unfortunately they dont. The doctor's receptionist emailed the person in charge of the covid vaccine programme for our local area and was told that they couldn't help. It does seem like people with mental health illnesses who cannot get out or travel to have the vaccine have been forgotten in this case.
> 
> I know that there are nurses who go to elderly and physically housebound people to give them the vaccine in the local area but unfortunately being unable to leave the house due to ill mental health does not count for the service.


 That really isn't fair. That's not good enough , they want people to take up the jabs , yet won't help them.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Siskin said:


> The main reason over 70's get admitted are due to underlying health conditions rather then vaccine reluctance due to not being internet savvy and of a lower education.
> TV programmes have given a lot of information on Covid and the vaccinations over the past 18 months and this where older people get a lot of information, those that are internet savvy and many over 70's are, can research further if needs be, after all you don't need a degree to Google something and a lot of information is given in a more understandable format.
> Neither my husband and I have a university education mainly because not that many went to university in those days and the secondary schools tended to prepare children for work rather then further education as happens now. I don't regard us as having a lower education especially when I see such terrible spelling and grammar errors from those who have been to university. Having worked with graduates quite frankly I despaired over lack of knowledge and understanding.
> 
> I don't know the ages of those in ICU with Covid in my local hospital, all I know is that the majority are not vaccinated and going by the chart in my previous post, this is less likely to be older people.


You might like to read this survey from the Max Planck Institute.

https://www.mpg.de/17673849/vaccination-willingness-in-europe

*Who are the unvaccinated?*
Researchers analyzed the willingness of elder people in Europe and Israel to get vaccinated against Covid-19


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

bmr10 said:


> I agree with you partially but I do not think a medical professional should prioritise patients based on their own moral compass. I don't believe it's anyone's job to play God. A patient admitted to ICU with covid could be 70, have no access to the internet and scientific articles, from a background of low educational attainment, and those that they call friends/family may be against the vaccine. It is not unlikely that this person may tend to believe what those close to them say surrounding covid. If this person had access to unbiased scientific journals or the internet which provides other points of view then they may have come to a different conclusion regarding vaccination. I think it is very easy to be frustrated with people who have seemed to cause their own negative circumstances but I don't think it is anyone's job to decide whether someone receives medical treatment and lives or dies based upon this frustration. There are instances of people being refused medical treatment (abortions comes to mind) because a medical provider has decided the situation is the patient's fault and I'm not confident that that's the way forward. I don't think we can come to conclusions based on the limited information we know about strangers and I don't think that we can rule out the possibility that if someone had been exposed to different circumstances, their future actions would be different. And in the case that their future actions wouldn't be different, then I still don't think we can boil a human's right to live down to whether they follow medical advice or not. Otherwise, the majority of people within the UK would be refused medical treatment for illnesses linked to obesity/overweight-ness, such as cardiac disease- one of the leading causes of death here.


Absolutely: you can smoke yourself near to death and drink yourself into oblivion - even crash your car while over the limit and cause a pile-up with casualties - you will still be eligible for treatment on the NHS. Saying that, for someone to work in ICU and refuse to be vaccinated sounds pretty bonkers to me.


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

Mrs Funkin said:


> I think that's terrible, I'm so saddened to read that nobody is prepared to help you. I'm afraid I'd be doing a little bit of rule bending if I was a community vaccinator. Is there not someone in your mental health team that can help you try to organise it? I'm not nagging, really I'm not, I just feel very sad for you. I hope that you are able to get to the point that you can get out to have your vaccination at some point soon.


It's quite disheartening especially as they're trying to get as many people vaccinated as possible but have missed what seems to be a big number of people who want to get vaccinated but can't go and get it. I'm not currently under a mental health team. I'm hopeful with how my medication is currently helping me that I will be able to get on a bus for the vaccine sometime early next year. Fingers crossed!



Jobeth said:


> I'd consider contacting the Citizens Advice Bureau or the Equality and Human Rights Commission. It could be disability discrimination to treat someone with a mental health condition differently to someone with a physical condition. It's definitely unfair and not right.


Thank you, I'll look into it. I agree it's definitely not fair and with how the government treats people with mental health conditions who apply for PIP something definitely needs to change.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MilleD said:


> You make some good points so it would be a shame if the way they are presented means folks aren't reading them


 I was about to say the same; but you said it more succinctly than I could.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

No one is being forced into getting vaccinated. You won't be sent to prison if you decline.

Care staff are given a choice: Get vaccinated or refuse and given your notice. Consider other career options that doesn't deal with members of the public face to face.

The last thing the care sector and NHS need are tabloid front pages of, "I got Covid through unvaccinated staff" and the likes.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

ForestWomble said:


> No because it is well known now that having the jab does not stop you from catching or spreading the virus, I have seen a few times now that the viral load is the same regardless of if you are vaccinated or not (if I'm wrong though I will be delighted to be proven wrong), the 'only' thing the vaccine does is protect the person who has had it from, hopefully. not getting too sick or worse.
> 
> Therefore I do not see the logic in making carers or NHS staff loose their jobs.


There's a difference between catching the virus despite taking precautions than someone who deliberately refuses to have it for whatever reason.

What the employer doesn't want is a damaging reputation of having unvaccinated staff looking after vulnerable people.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

KittenKong said:


> There's a difference between catching the virus despite taking precautions than someone who deliberately refuses to have it for whatever reason.
> 
> What the employer doesn't want is a damaging reputation of having unvaccinated staff looking after vulnerable people.


Of course so how do you propose we replace these workers many of whom are on minimum wage working long hours ? I completely get the ideal is to have everyone vaccinated but faced with a choice of an unvaccinated nurse or no nurse at all I know which one id choose.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> Of course so how do you propose we replace these workers many of whom are on minimum wage working long hours ? I completely get the ideal is to have everyone vaccinated but faced with a choice of an unvaccinated nurse or no nurse at all I know which one id choose.


Very good question! The employer should be making provisions to have staff vaccinated during working hours and on the premises, not expect people to do it in their own free time. I understand some already do.

But I get your point re further staff shortages should it become mandatory, by law, to get vaccinated if working in the care sector.

Seeing they never considered the concequences of the mass exodus of "none British" staff as a result of Brexit in the sector, they're hardly going to consider further shortages as a result of dismissals through refusing the vaccination are they.

I would think most in the care sector would want to protect their patients by getting vaccinated. I understand they are people exempt for a medical reason so should not be considered for dismissal.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

No I don't think they should be made too.

On saying that, why if you are working for the NHS or care staff looking after sick and elderly people why would you want to put them at risk.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Happy Paws2 said:


> No I don't think they should be made too.
> 
> On saying that, why if you are working for the NHS or care staff looking after sick and elderly people why would you want to put them at risk.


Exactly. Most in the care field genuinely care for the people they look after, or shouldn't be in the sector.

That would be like a vet who dislikes or doesn't care for animals.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

What are they going to classify as ''vaccinated'' though? Someone like me with two jabs (and no intention of having more) or someone like my neighbour who has had three? Then what next year - will they have to have another ''booster''? Or is it going to be two a year? When I was vaccinated a few months back, it was not suggested that they would expect me to have another this year.

(@KittenKong: nice to see you again!)


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Just because they don’t have the vaccine it doesn’t mean they don’t care. Again we need to look at why people aren’t. Staff are wearing PPE and undertaking lateral flow tests. This offers a layer of protection. The NHS and care homes are chronically under staffed. No one has answered is it safer to have less staff or some unvaccinated wearing PPE?


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Do we know how many medical staff in the NHS haven’t had the vaccine?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Just because they don't have the vaccine it doesn't mean they don't care. Again we need to look at why people aren't. Staff are wearing PPE and undertaking lateral flow tests. This offers a layer of protection. The NHS and care homes are chronically under staffed. No one has answered is it safer to have less staff or some unvaccinated wearing PPE?


Nor do we know how long immunity lasts if you've had an infection and recovered. 
An NHS worker who's recovered from Covid may have as much immunity as a vaccinated worker.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Nor do we know how long immunity lasts if you've had an infection and recovered.
> An NHS worker who's recovered from Covid may have as much immunity as a vaccinated worker.


Exactly or you might get a vaccination person who is a dirty sod and doesn't wash their hands. It's luck of the draw.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

stuaz said:


> Do we know how many medical staff in the NHS haven't had the vaccine?


According to ITV news . it's 70.000 . It sounds a lot to me.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-09/covid-vaccines-to-be-compulsory-for-nhs-staff-in-england


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I really think they should just get the vaccine or maybe change jobs to something less risky to the public. Winter is starting to set in and covid numbers are slowly rising again in hospitals (will probably happen every year now, like with flu. Except flu doesnt seem to be quite so deadly or potentially leave you with horrible symptoms).
Its hard enough to keep people safe in hospitals and care homes as it is. I mean we test staff and patients constantly for covid on the wards and yet you still find sometimes people turn up positive, sometimes after being on the ward weeks. We need to reduce the risk factors as much as possible.

Thank goodness most people are sensible though....really makes you think when you see what is going on in Europe at the moment.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> Just because they don't have the vaccine it doesn't mean they don't care.


No, you're right. Talking to a neighbour recently who said she ''doesn't bother with a mask as she's double-vaccinated'', so seems like it gives some people a false sense of security. Given the choice of sitting on the train next to someone who was vaccinated or someone with a (properly worn) mask, I'd opt for the mask I think.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Calvine said:


> No, you're right. Talking to a neighbour recently who said she ''doesn't bother with a mask as she's double-vaccinated'', so seems like it gives some people a false sense of security. Given the choice of sitting on the train next to someone who was vaccinated or someone with a (properly worn) mask, I'd opt for the mask I think.


I'm double vaccinated and never go out without a mask even when I get my booster I shall still wear one, OH is the same.

You can still spread it around even if you haven't got it, also wearing one it will cut down how many people will get Flu.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

i dont wear a mask out in the open but try to avoid getting close to other people . I do wear a mask in shops and at the hospital .

people say that masks dont help . I suppose they should be properly fitted. They must help otherwise why would surgeons wear them when they are operating.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> i dont wear a mask out in the open but try to avoid getting close to other people . I do wear a mask in shops and at the hospital .
> 
> people say that masks dont help . I suppose they should be properly fitted. They must help otherwise why would surgeons wear them when they are operating.


Don't quote me on this but I don't think surgeons wear masks so they don't catch something, it's mainly to stop any of their bodily fluids like a runny nose or saliva falling directly on their patient .

Still wearing masks is a good idea to stop you spreading something incase you have it


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

HarlequinCat said:


> Don't quote me on this but I don't think surgeons wear masks so they don't catch something, it's mainly to stop any of their bodily fluids like a runny nose or saliva falling directly on their patient .
> 
> Still wearing masks is a good idea to stop you spreading something incase you have it


Ooo and there was me thinking they had a pretty nurse to hand to mop the sweaty brow of the handsome surgeon:Hilarious


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Ooo and there was me thinking they had a pretty nurse to hand to mop the sweaty brow of the handsome surgeon:Hilarious


I'm sure there will be a nurse wanting to mop a handsome surgeons brow somewhere . 
I was thinking of those carry on films when you mentioned that


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

HarlequinCat said:


> Don't quote me on this but I don't think surgeons wear masks so they don't catch something, it's mainly to stop any of their bodily fluids like a runny nose or saliva falling directly on their patient .
> 
> Still wearing masks is a good idea to stop you spreading something incase you have it


Yes I meant surgeons passing germs on to patients , sorry I didn't explain that .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

HarlequinCat said:


> I'm sure there will be a nurse wanting to mop a handsome surgeons brow somewhere .
> I was thinking of those carry on films when you mentioned that


Carry on Nurse. ! :Hilarious


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> Carry on Nurse. ! :Hilarious


That's the one


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Calvine said:


> No, you're right. Talking to a neighbour recently who said she ''doesn't bother with a mask as she's double-vaccinated'', so seems like it gives some people a false sense of security. Given the choice of sitting on the train next to someone who was vaccinated or someone with a (properly worn) mask, I'd opt for the mask I think.


You mean you wouldn't want to sit next to this man


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> You mean you wouldn't want to sit next to this man
> 
> View attachment 479524


 He looks as though he has never combed his hair in his life (and I think this is possibly one of his ''better'' photos) - how on earth does he get that constantly unkempt appearance!


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> Just because they don't have the vaccine it doesn't mean they don't care. Again we need to look at why people aren't. Staff are wearing PPE and undertaking lateral flow tests. This offers a layer of protection. The NHS and care homes are chronically under staffed. No one has answered is it safer to have less staff or some unvaccinated wearing PPE?


Caring perhaps, but not caring enough to protect others.

If I was an unvaccinated care worker who passed on Covid to a vunerable person who died as a result, I would never forgive myself. Would be like getting behind the wheel of a car while drunk and running someone over.

And, yes, the vaccines don't give guaranteed protection, but at least we've made the effort to protect ourselves and others.


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