# Keyhole spaying (Laparoscopic spay)



## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

Has anyone on here used this type of spaying.
My little girl has quite a way to go before she gets spayed, but my vet performs keyhole spaying as well and its meant to be 65% less painfull, plus only removes the ovaries, rather than the whole uterus.
We have more or less decided that this is the type of spay she will have, but would be very interested to hear other dogs (and owners) experiences.
(I do know its a lot more expensive than the traditional spay)


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

I think I read about this a few weeks ago... apparantly it doesn't prevent a certain form of cancer which a full spay would do? I'm sure someone else would come on here and clarify for me


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

missRV said:


> I think I read about this a few weeks ago... apparantly it doesn't prevent a certain form of cancer which a full spay would do? I'm sure someone else would come on here and clarify for me


Interesting to know what unless the following from Making a rational choice between ovariectomy and ov... [Vet Surg. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI



> The overall chance for development of malignant uterine tumors is very low (0.003%), and, in our opinion, does not warrant performing a potentially more traumatizing surgical procedure, OVH, that might be associated with more postoperative complications.


We have had both our bitches spayed via laparoscopic spay and have been pleased with the results and recovery time.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

If the uterous is still in place will the dog still be at an increased risk of Pyo?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

In a word no. Covered in the study I linked to.



> These studies strongly suggest that progesterone is an essential factor in the occurrence of CEH-endometritis-
> pyometra and that correctly performed, OVH or OVE will prevent development CEH-pyometra in later life. OVE will not increase the chance for development of CEH-pyometra compared with OVH.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Goblin said:


> In a word no. Covered in the study I linked to.


Sorry - just curious.

On phone and couldnt open the link.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Yes my rescue collie bitch was spayed keyhole procedure in March.

I had a very heated discussion with my new vet and had both procedures explained in graphic detail before deciding on this procedure.

I have to say the recovery was spectacular and she was pretty much back to normal five hours later and then proceeded to be a nightmare for the next 10 days...LOL


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

If and when I have another bitch I will be requesting an ovariectomy, particulary as it will be a performance dog as it reduces damage to fascia and thus adhesions.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

Ok, sorry for being new and stupid but i'm getting confused here.
I have a girl that I will probably spay in the future

so traditional spay
removal of ovaries and uterus

laparascopic (keyhole)
removal of just ovaries

I also read of one that just removes uterus - just like human hysterectomy
where they keep the ovaries. The ovaries make estrogen which is good for
the bones, skin, eyes, arthritis,

so which is best? I prefer to keep the ovaries as in humans this is definitely better so I dont see why it wouldnt be the case in other mammals


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I would have thought that removing just the uterus would only remove the risk of pregnancy. The bitch would still produce the hormones (via the intact ovaries) that attract males, and can lead to mammary cancers and stump pyometra (there would have to be a stump left, as there is in a normal spay).


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

It just makes me anxious, as I know how important hormones are for humans


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Ha ha I'm even more confused now. We're getting Rosie done when she turns 6 moths and we obviously want what's best for her!


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## yeuxvert (Aug 5, 2012)

Am finding this thread interesting. Isla is 6mths and my initial feeling was not to have her spayed, purely from the point of view that I'd rather she didn't have any medical intervention unless absolutely necessary and I also feel strongly about hormones as per BabyBlu



BabyBlu said:


> It just makes me anxious, as I know how important hormones are for humans


However I am concerned about the negative health implications of not spaying. Had not heard of Laparoscopic spaying (only had a dog before) so will watch this thread with igreat nterest


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

I need to look into this more, I have time.
I wonder what the real risks are.
For humans, doctors can say that having a hysterectomy prevents us getting uterine cancer, or removing the ovaries prevents ovarian cancer, but did you know that removing the ovaries and uterus causes, weight gain, depression, osteoporosis, poor skin condition, hair loss, dry eyes, poor vision, increased risk of altzheimers?
I know because I have hormonal issues myself and have done tons of research into hormones.
Dogs make estrogen and progesterone too, so removing sex organs is going to affect them.
That is not to say I don't think it should be done, but I don't feel its a no-brainer


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

Ask most dog lovers and they will tell you that you should have your pet spayed or neutered, the sooner the better. For most pet owners it is good advice to have their pets altered if they dont intend to breed. However, its a good idea to know all of the medical facts about spaying and neutering before you make a decision for your pet. Neutering, and particularly spaying, are surgeries and they do come with risks. Not only that, but there are some pros and cons to spaying and neutering.

According to the American College of Theriogenologists (reproductive veterinarians), there are many good reasons for keeping an animal intact. Many of them have to do with the hormones estrogen and testosterone. These hormones are needed to help cats and dogs achieve their full growth. When pets are spayed at a very young age  before their growth plates close (around two years old for most dogs)  animals are much more likely to develop many kinds of cancer and other health problems.

Early spay/neuter increases the risk of hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, transitional cell carcinoma, and prostatic adenocarcinoma. Spayed and neutered pets are more likely to become obese probably due to a reduced metabolic rate related to the loss of sexual hormones. Urinary incontinence increases for spayed bitches, though this is less likely if the bitch is spayed after she has her first season. Intact bitches have a reduced incidence of urinary tract infections. Intact animals may have a reduced incidence of autoimmune thyroiditis and hypothyroidism. Diabetes mellitis occurs less frequently in intact dogs and bitches. There is a reduced incidence of cranial cruciate ruptures in intact dogs and bitches. And, there may be a lower incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs and bitches who are spayed and neutered after they are five months old (or after a first season for bitches).

In short, sexual hormones are very important to dogs and they play an important role in all aspects of a dogs development. If you spay or neuter your dog at a young age you are removing these hormones and you may be putting your dog at increased risk for some serious health problems later in life.

There are some benefits associated with spaying and neutering, however.

Spayed and neutered dogs have an increased incidence of mammary, testicular and ovarian tumors, as you might imagine, since these tumors are affected by the hormones.

There is an increased risk of pyrometra in intact female dogs. If the uterus is removed during spay surgery, this risk is virtually eliminated.

There is an increased risk of prostatitis and other prostate problems in intact male dogs.

Neutering your male dog decreases the risk of perineal and inguinal hernia and perineal adenoma.

None of this is written to discourage anyone from spaying or neutering their dog. However, it is written to inform pet owners that spaying and neutering your pet should not be considered a slam dunk decision. In many places today people routinely get their puppies spayed or neutered at 8-12 weeks of age without considering that they are depriving the puppies of hormones that they need for their overall development.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

If you intend to do any kind of canine sports with your dog you will probably want to wait longer to spay or neuter your pet. Studies have shown that dogs spayed at a very young age typically have longer limbs and lighter bone structure. They can be more prone to injury. Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

The Canine Health Foundation also reported that behavioral problems are more common among spayed and neutered dogs and bitches who are altered before five months of age. Spayed bitches showed more fearful behavior and neutered dogs showed more aggression, according to this study.

Spaying or neutering your dog is often the responsible thing to do. There was a time in this country in the 1960s when more than 20 million unwanted animals a year were being euthanized. Today that number has been reduced to approximately 3-4 million annually through education and spay/neuter programs. If you do not intend to breed your dog then spaying or neutering your pet can make it easier for you to manage your dog without worrying about unwanted puppies. However, you should never make major health decisions for your dog based solely on convenience. Spay/neuter surgery is a major health decision and it does have lifelong consequences for your dogs health.

Before deciding to spay or neuter your dog you should also take into consideration your dogs breed and other health information. Some dogs are already predisposed to certain kinds of cancer, for instance, or have a high incidence of hip dysplasia in the breed. You could be asking for trouble if you spay or neuter your dog at a young age given these considerations.

Again, for most pet owners spaying and neutering their pet after five months of age (or after a bitchs first season) is a good idea if you are not interested in breeding. However, please do your homework. Make sure that you have considered the health ramifications to your dog.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

quote

'When humans undergo surgical sterilization without follow up hormone replacement therapy (HRT) they suffer serious physical and mental health problems. This medical fact should give dog owners pause for thought before spaying or neutering as a matter of convenience. Ask your vet if hormone therapy is available for spayed and neutered pets. He'll laugh.'

I have been reading up a bit and it seems the case that the same diseases that humans are prone to after a hysterectomy as the same as those a bitch faces too

hip problems, diabetes, weight gain, hypothyroidism, depression and fearful behaviour!


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## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

Wow, thanks for all of your replies, very interesting reading and lots to consider.
We have researched quite extensively and 95% leaning towards keyhole.
But she won't be spayed before well over a year, as her body will be developing so much, and I feel she needs those hormones for her growth, bones and mental health.
(I actually don't like thinking about it as shes such a baby at the moment ;()


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

BabyBlu said:


> If you intend to do any kind of canine sports with your dog you will probably want to wait longer to spay or neuter your pet. Studies have shown that dogs spayed at a very young age typically have longer limbs and lighter bone structure. They can be more prone to injury. Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete


If you are going to post that you should post the rebuttal  http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf

Like all things.. arguments go both ways, probably as people simply can't provide yes/no answers.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf is useful in that it stresses dogs are different and need to be treated as such. Also provides a lot of possible reference material to track down.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I spoke to my vet and she doesn't do laparoscopic spaying, she says she barely opens up the bitches anyway and it affords her a better look so she can make sure she removes everything properly. It does sound like the recovery time is better with laparoscopic though so I'll have to mull things over for when I book her in in February.


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I spoke to my vet and she doesn't do laparoscopic spaying, she says she barely opens up the bitches anyway and it affords her a better look so she can make sure she removes everything properly. It does sound like the recovery time is better with laparoscopic though so I'll have to mull things over for when I book her in in February.


Hi Phoolf,

Our vet also didnt offer laparoscopic spaying but Izzy was fine with a normal spay. Her scar was very small, less than 2" long and they closed her up with internal stitches which just dissolved away. When she came home she was very groggy and whingy but after a couple of days she was fine and back to normal after 10 days! Keeping her quiet for the 10 days was very difficult though, she kept having major zoomies with all the pent up energy!

Just for you to see the alternative, most dogs do very well being spayed in the normal way with no undue pain or complications and from the sounds of it the recovery time is not that different as they have to stay quiet for 10days regardless!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Izzysmummy said:


> Hi Phoolf,
> 
> Our vet also didnt offer laparoscopic spaying but Izzy was fine with a normal spay. Her scar was very small, less than 2" long and they closed her up with internal stitches which just dissolved away. When she came home she was very groggy and whingy but after a couple of days she was fine and back to normal after 10 days! Keeping her quiet for the 10 days was very difficult though, she kept having major zoomies with all the pent up energy!
> 
> Just for you to see the alternative, most dogs do very well being spayed in the normal way with no undue pain or complications and from the sounds of it the recovery time is not that different as they have to stay quiet for 10days regardless!


Thanks for that, very reassuring. I've had cats spayed before but never a dog. I don't think her being too energetic will be much of a problem, she's been confined for most of 2 weeks now she's in season and she's done amazingly well just chilling out 90% of the day inbetween a bit of training etc.


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Thanks for that, very reassuring. I've had cats spayed before but never a dog. I don't think her being too energetic will be much of a problem, she's been confined for most of 2 weeks now she's in season and she's done amazingly well just chilling out 90% of the day inbetween a bit of training etc.


Heres a picture of her scar just to reassure you. This was 5 days later (I think).


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Izzysmummy said:


> Heres a picture of her scar just to reassure you. This was 5 days later (I think).


Not bad at all! :thumbsup:


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Izzysmummy said:


> Heres a picture of her scar just to reassure you. This was 5 days later (I think).


Thank you so much, that's put my mind at rest too  Our vet wants her done before she has her first season, I'm now worried that it will affect her bones?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

missRV said:


> Our vet wants her done before she has her first season, I'm now worried that it will affect her bones?


I know this is off topic but I would ask to talk to the vet asking for the reasoning and discuss the reasoning why before first season and also talk about your concern. My opinion is that there is not a black/white or right/wrong, you're simply playing a numbers game when your dog can't recognize or simply will probably ignore the numbers


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

missRV said:


> Thank you so much, that's put my mind at rest too  Our vet wants her done before she has her first season, I'm now worried that it will affect her bones?


Well it's never affected any of my bitch's bones. They've never got fat or been incontinent and I've been having them spayed before their first season for almost 35 years now.

They have also competed to top level in various disciplines over the years and all have excellent temperaments. They have continued to compete at 12 years plus as well.

The last bitch I lost was almost 16 yrs old and at the moment my oldest is coming up 14.1/2 yrs old and neither was/is incontinent.

I don't want to get into yet another argument on spaying and each to his own but some of this stuff is scaremongering IMO.


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## Reverie (Mar 26, 2012)

missRV said:


> Thank you so much, that's put my mind at rest too  Our vet wants her done before she has her first season, I'm now worried that it will affect her bones?


You could maybe try another vet just for a second opinion? The earliest my vet will spay is 3 months after the first season, and I have to say I agree.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

well I am not trying to scaremonger as I am just looking in to it myself. I just know that as mammals we are very much affected by our hormones.
I think it is practical, even considerate to neuter, but i would prefer the ovaries to be left so that my dog can still have her hormones that are needed for more than just making babies.


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## Izzysmummy (Oct 12, 2011)

BabyBlu said:


> well I am not trying to scaremonger as I am just looking in to it myself. I just know that as mammals we are very much affected by our hormones.
> I think it is practical, even considerate to neuter, but i would prefer the ovaries to be left so that my dog can still have her hormones that are needed for more than just making babies.


I agree that hormones have a massive effect. For us Izzy's first season and the hormone changes involved exacerbated her anxieties and set her training back a lot, I feel for Izzy it would have been much better getting her spayed before her first season. She also had a false pregnancy which again made her anxieties much worse and it took a few months for her to get back to "normal"  ! We got her spayed as soon as possible after her phantom so my poor girlie never had to go through that again!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BabyBlu said:


> well I am not trying to scaremonger as I am just looking in to it myself. I just know that as mammals we are very much affected by our hormones.
> I think it is practical, even considerate to neuter, but i would prefer the ovaries to be left so that my dog can still have her hormones that are needed for more than just making babies.


Why would anyone want to own a hormonal bitch? 

One of the main benefits of spaying is the reduction in mood swings, phantoms etc.

I spay all my bitches, but not until they are 2, lack of hormones has never affected them!

I do disagree with EARLY spaying ie before closure of growth plates (particuolarly in large breeds) or maturity just as I would disagree with my daughter having a hysterectomy before she was 18.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BabyBlu said:


> I did you know that removing the ovaries and uterus causes, weight gain, depression, osteoporosis, poor skin condition, hair loss, dry eyes, poor vision, increased risk of altzheimers?
> I know because I have hormonal issues myself and have done tons of research into hormones.
> Dogs make estrogen and progesterone too, so removing sex organs is going to affect them.
> That is not to say I don't think it should be done, but I don't feel its a no-brainer


Removing ovaries does not CAUSE weight gain in dogs it merely slows down metabolism. So you feed less and you do not have a fat bitch. My bitch weighed the same at 12 as she did at 2 when she was spayed and was extremely athletic.

Dogs are not humans.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

There are pros and cons to both neutering and not neutering, what you decide should depend on the individual animal, the environment, your skills etc

Nothing in life is risk free, including neutering and keeping your animals intact.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

I know dogs aren't humans. I just want to be a responsible owner and do what is best for her, and for us too. I am just looking in to it all. Things change. New things are discovered. Look how training has changed, choke chains, punishing your dog etc

That's all


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## yeuxvert (Aug 5, 2012)

Ha ha I wonder if this is a male/female thing


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

I know. Maybe I'm a hormonal bitch too, but I'd like to be a 'complete' woman , unless there is serious disease or complications


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Oh dear, I think you will find love that those of us who no longer produce hormones due to the menopause or hysterectomy still consider ourselves "complete"  ROFLMAO


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

I'm going through the menopause myself, I had problems and I fought against hysterectomy. I am taking bio identical hormones. It just made me wonder how a hysterectomy in a dog, who is still a mammal, as are we, make the same hormones, would be affected.
I hadn't thought about it before. I was going to neuter my dog at 6 months ... But now I have discovered there is a different opinion out there. I was interested. It's good to look at more than one opinion, right?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

BabyBlu said:


> Ask most dog lovers and they will tell you that you should have your pet spayed or neutered, the sooner the better. For most pet owners it is good advice to have their pets altered if they dont intend to breed. However, its a good idea to know all of the medical facts about spaying and neutering before you make a decision for your pet. Neutering, and particularly spaying, are surgeries and they do come with risks. Not only that, but there are some pros and cons to spaying and neutering.
> 
> According to the American College of Theriogenologists (reproductive veterinarians), there are many good reasons for keeping an animal intact. Many of them have to do with the hormones estrogen and testosterone. These hormones are needed to help cats and dogs achieve their full growth. When pets are spayed at a very young age  before their growth plates close (around two years old for most dogs)  animals are much more likely to develop many kinds of cancer and other health problems.
> 
> ...


Sure you didn't mean to write 'decreased risk' here? How could there be an increased risk of problems with organs that have been removed?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

When listing things like increased risk of X or decreased risk of Y you also need to recognize the level of base risk. 1 in 1000000 instead of 1 in 1000001 is still an increased risk but really isn't justification one way or another in my mind. This is one of the problems you need to consider when looking at sweeping statements and wording such as increased/decreased risk.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> Sure you didn't mean to write 'decreased risk' here? How could there be an increased risk of problems with organs that have been removed?


sorry Burrowzig, I got this from a website.
I'm sure they DO mean DECREASED as you have spotted - they are talking about the benefits of spaying in that section.


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## BabyBlu (Nov 8, 2012)

Thanks Goblin, I do know about base risk, plenty of risk assessment with my own hormone taking.

I was just quoting from a website. I would have just posted a link to it but I wasnt sure I was allowed to do that. 

I'm not trying to start an argument. I was merely wondering out loud about how the removal of a dogs hormones might or might not affect her in other ways.


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## bengimarty (Feb 23, 2011)

I had my 16 month old saluki/greyhound lurcher spayed via keyhole yesterday morning. Went in at 9am, was out and eating by 1pm and home at 4pm. Just two one cm holes...no visible stitches for her to lick and bother, no buster collar to drive her mad. She was trying to play that evening but kept her quiet. I realised straight away that a full spay would have been a nightmare with her, she is just too energetic and with a few other dogs around she will recover more quickly. There is no weeping or blood around the two little holes, they are very clean and we just have to keep her out of the pond for ten days. 
So far I would choose this op even though it has cost me double, a normal spay at my local vets was just under £200 and this spay cost me £424 (she is 21kg, its less if they are smaller). My local vet who I do trust said the keyhole spay had no benefits and I read that a full spay would enable vet to see more but keyhole vet says camera gives better view. keyhole vet says uterus without ovary active will not be so at risk of pyro as its not used/inactive.


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## sammi3664uk (May 18, 2009)

Our boxer had the keyhole spay last Friday and the recovery is brilliant! She was a little sleepy when she got home and was crying but it was because she was so hungry as she was starved from the day before and was only allowed to feed her small light meals. Saturday she was rolling on her back in the garden ready to have her mad half hour (which I had to stop) lol all she wants to do now is go for a walk. She goes back tomorrow to have her 2 1cm wounds checked and hopefully that will be it. fingers crossed she'll be allowed to go for short walks on lead. 

here are some pics - Friday the day of the op a bit tired and the wounds and on Saturday with her get well soon card!


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## Baz150858 (Apr 9, 2014)

Hi,

I've on two separate occasions used Springfield vets in Sheffield. It's an hour from me but went as recommended by friends who have been. Would have keyhole spay every time, by far better recovery in the dogs and clearly in less pain. Great vets and shame they aren't closer as just started to do their own out of hours too. Would recommend this surgery and this practice to anybody. Thanks Springfield.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I do regular spays and find that most of my patients recover very well.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Shoshannah said:


> I do regular spays and find that most of my patients recover very well.


I agree.

My old vet spayed all my bitches over a 35 year period and they were pretty much back to normal by the following day. In fact I caught one or two of them doing a ton and ten around the paddock....!!

He used to make a tiny incision in the crook of the leg, so there was no way they could get to the stitches. Very clever surgeon.


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