# mating problem



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

hi i have 2 american bulldogs one is a normal johnson bulldog (male) and the female is a old tyme johnson. the problem is that my female is quite a slim build and probably only weighs around 50-60 pounds where's my male weighs around 150-170 pounds (he is huge with a bear head lol) now when mating he keeps pulling her to the ground with his weight and they try this near enough 24/7 and he keeps getting inpatient and moaning all the time. i know she is letting him as half the time she gets fed up and trys humping him lol. i think she has been on heat for about a week or just over and both anges are 3 and 4 yrs old.

any opinions people as starting to feel sorry for our male lol.

many thanks


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Is this a wind up? A male that much larger than the female with resulting pups that could kill her at whelping, being too big for her to deliver!

It has to be a wind up, either that or a completely clueless human who can't see what's staring him in the face!


----------



## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

debodeebs said:


> hi i have 2 american bulldogs one is a normal johnson bulldog (male) and the female is a old tyme johnson. the problem is that my female is quite a slim build and probably only weighs around 50-60 pounds where's my male weighs around 150-170 pounds (he is huge with a bear head lol) now when mating he keeps pulling her to the ground with his weight and they try this near enough 24/7 and he keeps getting inpatient and moaning all the time. i know she is letting him as half the time she gets fed up and trys humping him lol. i think she has been on heat for about a week or just over and both anges are 3 and 4 yrs old.
> 
> any opinions people as starting to feel sorry for our male lol.
> 
> many thanks


To be honest if there is that much difference in size and build Im not sure that its a good idea for them to mate anyway espcially if you havent bred before and had no experience, if the pups are large which they could well be then there is high risk that she wouldnt be able to pass them through the birth canal meaning she will need a cesar, not only would it be putting her at risk especially if you get the timing wrong or not sure what you are doing, resulting in loss of Mum and pups, cesars arnte cheap either, and normal insurance doesnt cover pregnancy and birth, so if you havent got the money
if there is a problem and you dont get her to the vets in time you are goint to have big problems.


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

bit of a harsh comment. i am a person who yes is a little inexperienced in breeding but not an idiot. they are of same breed just one coming from largest pup in litter the other being a small pup of the litter from a diffrent bloodline. 
If i was to say that my 170lb male bulldog was to mate with a female staff making them bulldog/ staff which thousands exist., but its not a staff just a smaller version of bulldog breed. the male is not that much taller but has 3x the muscle mass etc. Not being funny but in the future can you not jump straight to the gun making me sound like an idiot. i came on hear for a bit of friendly advice.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> hi i have 2 american bulldogs one is a normal johnson bulldog (male) and the female is a old tyme johnson. the problem is that my female is quite a slim build and probably only weighs around 50-60 pounds where's my male weighs around 150-170 pounds (he is huge with a bear head lol) now when mating he keeps pulling her to the ground with his weight and they try this near enough 24/7 and he keeps getting inpatient and moaning all the time. i know she is letting him as half the time she gets fed up and trys humping him lol. i think she has been on heat for about a week or just over and both anges are 3 and 4 yrs old.
> 
> any opinions people as starting to feel sorry for our male lol.
> 
> many thanks


there is no such breed as an 'olde tyme johnson' though i have heard of ole' southern whites.
have they been health tested , as there are a few health tests available for the breed and they are important ones.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> To be honest if there is that much difference in size and build Im not sure that its a good idea for them to mate anyway espcially if you havent bred before and had no experience, if the pups are large which they could well be then there is high risk that she wouldnt be able to pass them through the birth canal meaning she will need a cesar, not only would it be putting her at risk especially if you get the timing wrong or not sure what you are doing, resulting in loss of Mum and pups, cesars arnte cheap either, and normal insurance doesnt cover pregnancy and birth, so if you havent got the money
> if there is a problem and you dont get her to the vets in time you are goint to have big problems.


And don't I know that one! Not (thankfully) because pups were too large, although there were a couple of chunky monkies in there, simply because the first one down the uterine horns presented so awkwardly it was never coming out on it's own. That was a nice Sunday spending spree of £1,571 straight off the debit card, with quite a few more bills to come, and yes, normal insurance doesn't cover the cost of anything associated with breeding.

To the OP, if you are honestly that inexperienced with breeding I would give it a miss and do a lot of research before even attempting this mating. If things go wrong both the dog and bitch could be injured, things don't always happen nicely, sometimes bitches can become short tempered once they are tied, which is why dog fighters use those God awful metal stands you see photographs posted of everywhere that those who don't know better say that puppy farmers use. What would you do if your bitch suddenly decided she didn't like being tied to your dog, and reacted? I know a fair few experienced folk who handle dogs at stud, who have been bitten a number of times, from bitches who turn unexpectedly.

I'd also suggest you seriously think twice about breeding more of this breed type if you're not sure of your lines/conformation etc, there seems to be an awful lot around at the moment that are being simply churned out. If you've not done any health tests and aren't sure about the conformation/sizes, I really think you need to do a lot more research. That's not trying to make it sound like you don't know anything, but from what you've posted you perhaps aren't aware of how much you need to know about breeding, and you wouldn't be the first person, in fact you would be in the vast majority unfortunately.


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

No one is making you sound like an idiot, but breeding these two isn't the best idea you must have had. That's like me breeding my little 3lb girl to a 9lber (yorkies) I doubt she'd make it out of the actual mating in best shape never mind the fact the pregnancy would kill her- hence why she's spayed.
Have you thought hat happens if the pups are very muscular right from birth? Bulldogs (like some yorkies) are known for small, narrow pelvis' so if any pups take after the sire its gonna be at least £1000 for a c-section, never min the discomfort to your girl.

Your best bet would be to leave it- maybe they aren't able to achieve a mate for a reason, Mother Nature does often know best. Why not start again with your breeding plans... Pick which type you like, health test That dog (neuter the other just in case) and focus on a type to type mating, with far fewer risks. 
If you prefer your girls type, find her an experienced stud, if you like your boys build, you could always buy in a girl of that type and go from there...


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

I would just like to thankyou for your concerns, my dogs get vet checked fairly regular and the vet does know that we were intending to breed when ready i have waited untill a good age so i know that they could breed good dogs. both my dogs are kc registered and was breeding through that system. I am not a back street breeder i am just new to this i have done my research about breeeding just have not come accross this problem before. I do care about my female and i am going to get her checked by the vet again iin the next few days and ask again if they are a suitable couple, as they are the same breed just my female is on the leaner side. 
My main question that my otherhalf didnt put was if aiding is a good idea??? i have read about this but it seems a bit like forcing them to mate and if anyone has tried this method and what are the advantages and disadvantages?? 
Please do not get me wrong i feel the same about backstreet breeders who breed there dogs just for money. I am not people think that american bulldogs are a aggressive breed but having owned 2 for a couple of yeasrs i have found that they are very loyal and kind dogs espeically to my children ( my male is very protective of my sons) and they are a joy to have as additions to my family. I want to keep my males champion bloodline going as he is the second gen of champion weight puller american bulldog pure breed.
My female is a olde thym american bulldog pure breed. 
there are several types of american bulldog you have johnson, scott and hybrid and also the leaner version and a bit shorter the olde tyme. 

thanks if anyone can help without telling me that i do not know what i am doing just because i asked for a little advice of people that have done this before quite regularly, instead of just letting them do it and forcefully conceive. 
i thought i was being responsable about this to be perfectly honnest


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Honestly, your eat isn't the person to ask about suitability- he isn't going to know, and may just see c-section £ signs; it's sad, but often true 
Bea bet is to talk to lots of other bulldog breeders, and the club chairperson to! 

IMO, dogs should always be held when mating- soo much damage can be inflicted if one of the dogs tries to bolt.


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Can't answer anything about breeding as I've no interest in breeding myself.
However I'd of thought if your Bitch is a slimmer/slighter dog and your Male has a broad muscular head then it wouldn't be the best idea.

Just a little confused - you say your dogs are KC reg but I can't see johnson bulldog or old tyme johnson on the KC breed list  Sorry If I've misunderstood something


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Fleur said:


> Just a little confused - you say your dogs are KC reg but I can't see johnson bulldog or old tyme johnson on the KC breed list  Sorry If I've misunderstood something


I think it's a type of the breed, rather than a different breed. For example, my girls are pixie type Yorkies (more terriery) where as my old boy was a teddy- more stocky and not built to be really lean...


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

debodeebs said:


> I would just like to thankyou for your concerns, my dogs get vet checked fairly regular and the vet does know that we were intending to breed when ready i have waited untill a good age so i know that they could breed good dogs. both my dogs are kc registered and was breeding through that system. I am not a back street breeder i am just new to this i have done my research about breeeding just have not come accross this problem before. I do care about my female and i am going to get her checked by the vet again iin the next few days and ask again if they are a suitable couple, as they are the same breed just my female is on the leaner side.
> My main question that my otherhalf didnt put was if aiding is a good idea??? i have read about this but it seems a bit like forcing them to mate and if anyone has tried this method and what are the advantages and disadvantages??
> Please do not get me wrong i feel the same about backstreet breeders who breed there dogs just for money. I am not people think that american bulldogs are a aggressive breed but having owned 2 for a couple of yeasrs i have found that they are very loyal and kind dogs espeically to my children ( my male is very protective of my sons) and they are a joy to have as additions to my family. I want to keep my males champion bloodline going as he is the second gen of champion weight puller american bulldog pure breed.
> My female is a olde thym american bulldog pure breed.
> ...


Vet checks aren't health tests. Health test for American Bulldog are hip and elbow scoring and Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis. The first two require xrays and are evaluated by the BVA, the latter is DNA test. American Bulldogs are not a KC recognised breed so cannot be KC registered. There's no such type as Old Tyme Johnson, do you mean Old Southern? In my breed someone did try putting a much larger dog to a much smaller bitch. The dog jumped on her and broke her spine. She had to be PTS.


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Well, I can only echo what others have said! Your girl will have some issues delivering them pups! Best get saving 2 grand for the caesarian and quickly.

And health tests are breed-recommended checks such as eye tests and hips etc. not your vet check.


----------



## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

Vet checked is totally different from health tested - health tested is for things that are congenital that can be passed onto the puppies like hip dysplasia etc - and if not tested for them and the puppies do get one of these conditions then the puppy owners are going to be knocking on your door in the future with their lawyer! 
I would also think very carefully before mating 2 dogs with such a big variation in size as you could kill your bitch or loose pups - at the best it will cost you a small fortune.
As for continuing your dogs champion lines - pretty much all dogs have champion lines in them somewhere, and the fact most well bred males dogs from champion lines can sometimes father 100 odd litters or more that is an awful lot of dogs with those lines, most puppy buyers will be looking at what the parents have done to warrant breeding not the grandparents! 

A responsible breeder always asks before breeding are these 2 dogs good enough to breed from and do they match conformationally as well as in the pedigrees, not just this one has nuts this one has a uterus lets leave them to it! 
Wanting to breed purely for a piece of paper and the fact the male is a good guard dog is not a good enough reason to breed - especially with so many of these type of dogs dumped in rescues because there simply aren't enough homes for them all. You really should have a better idea of what you want to produce - mating 2 very different dogs even within the same breed could produce some very fugly puppies - mating 2 different types should be done over a couple of generations with intermediate dogs as it were not just 2 very different types and hope to get something in the middle - genetics doesn't work like that!


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> I would just like to thankyou for your concerns, my dogs get vet checked fairly regular and the vet does know that we were intending to breed when ready i have waited untill a good age so i know that they could breed good dogs. both my dogs are kc registered and was breeding through that system. I am not a back street breeder i am just new to this i have done my research about breeeding just have not come accross this problem before. I do care about my female and i am going to get her checked by the vet again iin the next few days and ask again if they are a suitable couple, as they are the same breed just my female is on the leaner side.
> My main question that my otherhalf didnt put was if aiding is a good idea??? i have read about this but it seems a bit like forcing them to mate and if anyone has tried this method and what are the advantages and disadvantages??
> Please do not get me wrong i feel the same about backstreet breeders who breed there dogs just for money. I am not people think that american bulldogs are a aggressive breed but having owned 2 for a couple of yeasrs i have found that they are very loyal and kind dogs espeically to my children ( my male is very protective of my sons) and they are a joy to have as additions to my family. I want to keep my males champion bloodline going as he is the second gen of champion weight puller american bulldog pure breed.
> My female is a olde thym american bulldog pure breed.
> ...


responsible ? please don't take this the wrong way but it does appear you don't even know what breed of dog you have there is NO such thing as an 'olde tyme johnson' it's either a 'johnson' bred dog or the dog isn't. 
health checks are not 'health tests' two are totally different things.



kodakkuki said:


> I think it's a type of the breed, rather than a different breed. For example, my girls are pixie type Yorkies (more terriery) where as my old boy was a teddy- more stocky and not built to be really lean...


there are several strains of american bulldog , those being , painter , scott , hines and johnson , there is no such american bulldog called the 'olde tyme johnson'


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

debodeebs said:


> I would just like to thankyou for your concerns, my dogs get vet checked fairly regular and the vet does know that we were intending to breed when ready i have waited untill a good age so i know that they could breed good dogs. both my dogs are kc registered and was breeding through that system. I am not a back street breeder i am just new to this i have done my research about breeeding just have not come accross this problem before. I do care about my female and i am going to get her checked by the vet again iin the next few days and ask again if they are a suitable couple, as they are the same breed just my female is on the leaner side.
> My main question that my otherhalf didnt put was if aiding is a good idea??? i have read about this but it seems a bit like forcing them to mate and if anyone has tried this method and what are the advantages and disadvantages??
> Please do not get me wrong i feel the same about backstreet breeders who breed there dogs just for money. I am not people think that american bulldogs are a aggressive breed but having owned 2 for a couple of yeasrs i have found that they are very loyal and kind dogs espeically to my children ( my male is very protective of my sons) and they are a joy to have as additions to my family. I want to keep my males champion bloodline going as he is the second gen of champion weight puller american bulldog pure breed.
> My female is a olde thym american bulldog pure breed.
> ...


Vets don't generally have a lot of knowledge about the various issues surrounding canine reproduction, their knowledge is much more general, and their assessment of your dog will not equate to a health test, it means your dogs look healthy, and are capable of reproduction, or attempting to. It's not in the interest of your vets to tell you not to go ahead and try for a litter, after all, you will spend money with them one way or another by breeding, my vets did waive some of the bills from the litter I had, but I still ended up £3k in the red.

I don't know about the various strains of bulldogs, but I don't think yours can be KC registered can they? I thought they were bred to type with these kind of bulldogs? Not that that makes them in any way inferior, but I think you will be mistaken about the KC registered bit. But as mentioned, the actual health tests would still apply to a breed type, your dogs do not have to be pedigree to undergo the same health testing as apply to pedigrees, they can still suffer from the same hereditary problems.

I would honestly urge you not to go ahead with this mating at this point in time, it really does not sound as if you have the knowledge required to handle a difficult mating and you could end up injuring your dogs and/or yourself if you persist in trying. Yes, some bitches are held for mating, or other assistance is used, such as getting the bitch to stand down a slight slope if she's slightly taller; but if you have not got the relevant experience it is difficult and dangerous for all concerned, these are living creatures with bl**dy big teeth. Please reconsider this time round and research more about breeding, particularly if your bitch is considerably smaller than the dog, and if he has a much larger head as you seem to indicate.

I'm copying and pasting this for you so you can see the sort of issues that arise from handling a dog at stud, this is a friend of mine with over 20 years experience, Di Stevens at Wylanbriar Labradors:

Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance Wink

Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:

1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery.
What do you do?
What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown Wink

What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.

2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!

3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.

4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....

5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.

6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.

7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.

Cool Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!

9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.

10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.

Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes.
Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated.
So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't know about the various strains of bulldogs, but I don't think yours can be KC registered can they? I thought they were bred to type with these kind of bulldogs? Not that that makes them in any way inferior, but I think you will be mistaken about the KC registered bit. But as mentioned, the actual health tests would still apply to a breed type, your dogs do not have to be pedigree to undergo the same health testing as apply to pedigrees, they can still suffer from the same hereditary problems.


no they arent a breed that is recognized by the kennel club , there are several registries for them , heres some information on them and their different strains
American Bulldog Types and Blood Lines

if the OP isn't sure about what breed of dog she has imo they arent experienced enough to breed , especially with what seems like lack of health testing , never mind the breeding of a massively undersized bitch when compared to the dog being used. plus they are hugely over produced now anyway , so no market at all for these dogs now really and definitely no excuses for poorly matched dogs being used for breeding stock and the production of poorly bred puppies.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diablo said:


> no they arent a breed that is recognized by the kennel club , there are several registries for them , heres some information on them and their different strains
> American Bulldog Types and Blood Lines
> 
> if the OP isn't sure about what breed of dog she has imo they arent experienced enough to breed , especially with what seems like lack of health testing , never mind the breeding of a massively undersized bitch when compared to the dog being used. plus they are hugely over produced now anyway , so no market at all for these dogs now really and definitely no excuses for poorly matched dogs being used for breeding stock and the production of poorly bred puppies.


Thanks for the info, will have a peek at the link a little later, just finishing my lunch and need to finish submitting some reports for work.

I agree with you about breeding and the level of knowledge required, it's bl**dy hard work as well, even going into it with your eyes apparently open you still think what the hell have I let myself in for. I just hope they can read and take to heart what's being posted, and not take it personally.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for the info, will have a peek at the link a little later, just finishing my lunch and need to finish submitting some reports for work.
> 
> I agree with you about breeding and the level of knowledge required, it's bl**dy hard work as well, even going into it with your eyes apparently open you still think what the hell have I let myself in for. I just hope they can read and take to heart what's being posted, and not take it personally.


i wouldnt even consider going down the route of breeding dogs , far too complex for me  there are a few things i couldnt even begin to get my head around researching of pedigrees for one to make sure dogs compliment each other would do my head in , thats not even taking into consideration everything else involved :scared: :eek6:
i do have massive respect for people that do all these things though and definitely appreciate seeing dogs and puppies thrive when in the care of a breeder thats done everything right , kudos to you all:thumbsup:


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

yes they are registered i have papers for both. ok thanks for the help i understand my male is a big male compared to others and my female is slightly smaller then her usual. I understand where you are coming from as my female does move forward when he is on her. Before i put them back together i will try and find out weather they are compatable for each other and then take the precautionary measures further that are needed.
I do not want luna(my female) to end up in the evts late at night mainly for her own safety. 
so if it is a go ahead i should hold her as they do let me near then without any aggressive behaviour towards me or my OH i am concerned that is why we posted the thread. i will post another in breeding to see if there is a more experienced breeder that deals with american bulldogs that could give me some usefull info 

thanks allot everyone


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> yes they are registered i have papers for both. ok thanks for the help i understand my male is a big male compared to others and my female is slightly smaller then her usual. I understand where you are coming from as my female does move forward when he is on her. Before i put them back together i will try and find out weather they are compatable for each other and then take the precautionary measures further that are needed.
> I do not want luna(my female) to end up in the evts late at night mainly for her own safety.
> so if it is a go ahead i should hold her as they do let me near then without any aggressive behaviour towards me or my OH i am concerned that is why we posted the thread. i will post another in breeding to see if there is a more experienced breeder that deals with american bulldogs that could give me some usefull info
> 
> thanks allot everyone


Registered with who?


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

People are concerned that the pups might be too large to give birth naturally to!!!!
There is a real danger of them getting stuck during labour and then you'll end up with dead pups AND dead mum!!!!


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Vets don't generally have a lot of knowledge about the various issues surrounding canine reproduction, their knowledge is much more general, and their assessment of your dog will not equate to a health test, it means your dogs look healthy, and are capable of reproduction, or attempting to. It's not in the interest of your vets to tell you not to go ahead and try for a litter, after all, you will spend money with them one way or another by breeding, my vets did waive some of the bills from the litter I had, but I still ended up £3k in the red.
> 
> I don't know about the various strains of bulldogs, but I don't think yours can be KC registered can they? I thought they were bred to type with these kind of bulldogs? Not that that makes them in any way inferior, but I think you will be mistaken about the KC registered bit. But as mentioned, the actual health tests would still apply to a breed type, your dogs do not have to be pedigree to undergo the same health testing as apply to pedigrees, they can still suffer from the same hereditary problems.
> 
> ...


hi my female has no problems being mated nad yes they are kc registered as i do have both papers for them from the kennel club i am more then happy to take photos of this and put them up. I am very thankfull for this info and will take it in mind. 
luna does seem happy as she is playing with him and letting hi, dominate her easily i.e when she is walking or running he will heel her and then try (this was before we seperated them) 
if i put up some photos of my dogs then you can tell me weather you think she is to small??? if you are exsperienced thanks


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Out of curiosity- WHY do you want a litter?


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

debodeebs said:


> hi my female has no problems being mated nad yes they are kc registered as i do have both papers for them from the kennel club i am more then happy to take photos of this and put them up. I am very thankfull for this info and will take it in mind.
> luna does seem happy as she is playing with him and letting hi, dominate her easily i.e when she is walking or running he will heel her and then try (this was before we seperated them)
> if i put up some photos of my dogs then you can tell me weather you think she is to small??? if you are exsperienced thanks


Sleeping_Lion is in Labs, so she might not be the best person to judge that. 
Actually, the 2 people that spring to mind when it comes to large bully-type breeds are Diablo and Snoringbear. 
And yes, I would love to see pictures of your dogs.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> hi my female has no problems being mated nad yes they are *kc registered* as i do have both papers for them from the kennel club i am more then happy to take photos of this and put them up. I am very thankfull for this info and will take it in mind.
> luna does seem happy as she is playing with him and letting hi, dominate her easily i.e when she is walking or running he will heel her and then try (this was before we seperated them)
> if i put up some photos of my dogs then you can tell me weather you think she is to small??? if you are exsperienced thanks


look , you dont even know what kind of dogs you have , please explain *''old tyme johnson''?* and they are not kennel club recognised so please check your papers again. the chances of the dogs EVER being officially recognised are VERY slim , so many types and bloodlines and no exact set standard for one breed of dog , which is why they arent recognised , or ever likely to be.
people dont have to have breeding experience to know what they are posting about.


----------



## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

i have spoke to diablo (not about breeding) but advice in general. she knows her stuff, you came on here for advice so my advice is take the advice that diablo and others are giving,dont Pooh Pooh it by thinking you know best. if you did you wouldnt of came on to ask.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

diablo said:


> look , you dont even know what kind of dogs you have , please explain *''old tyme johnson''?* and they are not kennel club recognised so please check your papers again.
> people dont have to have breeding experience to know what they are posting about.


I can only assume he/she means a Johnson American Bulldog (type) crossed with an Old Tyme Bulldog (which is not a breed, but more a mixing of breeds from what I know, and not for very good reasons as far as I'm concerned). How anything like that could be 'KC registered' is beyond me.


----------



## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Brill. 2nd thoughtless owner this week..


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> I can only assume he/she means a Johnson American Bulldog (type) crossed with an Old Tyme Bulldog (which is not a breed, but more a mixing of breeds from what I know, and not for very good reasons as far as I'm concerned). How anything like that could be 'KC registered' is beyond me.


if this is what she has and this is what is happening then it's a very pointless breeding and a dead road to nowhere.
there isn't any kind of reasonable excuse to let a breeding like this go ahead.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

diablo said:


> if this is what she has and this is what is happening then it's a very pointless breeding and a dead road to nowhere.
> there isn't any kind of reasonable excuse to let a breeding like this go ahead.


Indeed. I really don't see the need for any more badly bred American Bulldogs right now, they're become quite popular as they're seen as just bigger version of staffs, but they're certainly not like staffs at all in my experience. My Kes is 1/2 Am Bull and she's a helluva lot stronger and harder to handle than any staff, certainly not good for first time or inexperienced owners.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

debodeebs said:


> hi my female has no problems being mated nad yes they are kc registered as i do have both papers for them from the kennel club i am more then happy to take photos of this and put them up. I am very thankfull for this info and will take it in mind.
> luna does seem happy as she is playing with him and letting hi, dominate her easily i.e when she is walking or running he will heel her and then try (this was before we seperated them)
> if i put up some photos of my dogs then you can tell me weather you think she is to small??? if you are exsperienced thanks


I honestly hope you find someone with experience in this breed who can help you because dogs do not dominate bitches, generally it's bitches that are in control ime. I do not have any stud dog experience at all as I own bitches, so you need to find someone with relevant breed type and relevant breeding experience, I couldn't begin to hope to help you except by telling you what I have already. I would not at all recommend you hold your girl to try and get a mating, I am seriously worried you and/or your dogs could end up injured if you're not careful.

I'm genuinely confused now as I understood it that this type of bulldog is bred to type, and registered wtih a different registry than the kennel club, so they're not pedigrees as in KC registered, I think Diablo posted a link to one of the registration bodies.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I honestly hope you find someone with experience in this breed who can help you because dogs do not dominate bitches, generally it's bitches that are in control ime. I do not have any stud dog experience at all as I own bitches, so you need to find someone with relevant breed type and relevant breeding experience, I couldn't begin to hope to help you except by telling you what I have already. I would not at all recommend you hold your girl to try and get a mating, I am seriously worried you and/or your dogs could end up injured if you're not careful.
> 
> I'm genuinely confused now as I understood it that this type of bulldog is bred to type, and registered wtih a different registry than the kennel club, so they're not pedigrees as in KC registered, I think Diablo posted a link to one of the registration bodies.


there are several registries NKC and ABA springs to mind (dogs can be registered with both registries) there are a few other registries from my understanding BUT if OP is breeding american bulldog to old type bulldog i dont think there are any registries that would register this litter at all the ABA wont nor will the NKC as they will only register american bulldogs , not any other kind. 
American Bulldog (UK) Breed Registries
unless of course they go down DLRC route


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diablo said:


> there are several registries NKC and ABA springs to mind (dogs can be registered with both registries) there are a few other registries from my understanding BUT if OP is breeding american bulldog to old type bulldog i dont think there are any registries that would register this litter at all the ABA wont nor will the NKC as they will only register american bulldogs , not any other kind.
> American Bulldog (UK) Breed Registries
> unless of course they go down *DLRC* route


I'm in two minds whether to report you for swearing! :lol:


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm in two minds whether to report you for swearing! :lol:


i know i know but it had to be said so a few things can be established


----------



## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

i dont think this person is that bothered about the advice being given.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

dexter12 said:


> i dont think this person is that bothered about the advice being given.


Maybe not, but at least the advice is there. It can be hard accepting it's not the right thing to breed necessarily, and the OP won't be the only one reading this thread, so it's always better to post factual information, not just for the benefit of the OP


----------



## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Maybe not, but at least the advice is there. It can be hard accepting it's not the right thing to breed necessarily, and the OP won't be the only one reading this thread, so it's always better to post factual information, not just for the benefit of the OP


i didnt mean people shouldnt bother, what i meant was people are giving advice and asking her questions and when you look back through her replies she dont really seem to take on board what anyone says. about the vet check being different to health tests she never mentioned those again. just seems like she has asked a question but has no intention of taking anything on board.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

dexter12 said:


> i dont think this person is that bothered about the advice being given.


thats the very sad reality of things usually , in most cases the threads serve a purpose though to others considering breeding.
to breed two bulldogs of different types (if thats whats happening) is bad practice and highly unethical and your name in those circles will be mud for a long time , the american bulldog fraternity is a very 'iffy' one  remember going to a rally quite a few years back with friends to see the dogs in action , worst experience of my life! owners squabbling and bad mouthing each other and i swear if they'd put a boxing ring there they'd have had fisty cuffs for sure


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

The only thing OP has taken from others posts is about holding during mating... To clarify, I hadn't meant for These two dogs. I'll be more blunt than before; if you breed your male to your girl it will be an incredibly risky and therefor unethical mating that could and likely would result in complications for the bitch and pups. I'm sure your dogs health means more to you than keeping someone else's lines going (which they will be doing themselves with other experienced breeders).


----------



## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

diablo said:


> thats the very sad reality of things usually , in most cases the threads serve a purpose though to others considering breeding.
> to breed two bulldogs of different types (if thats whats happening) is bad practice and highly unethical and your name in those circles will be mud for a long time , the american bulldog fraternity is a very 'iffy' one  remember going to a rally quite a few years back with friends to see the dogs in action , worst experience of my life! owners squabbling and bad mouthing each other and i swear if they'd put a boxing ring there they'd have had fisty cuffs for sure


oh no really ! so im guessing you would go back to one of the events again then ay!:lol: well hopefully if she/he posts this question in the breeding bit some people with the same breed will tell her why its not a good idea! 
i understand why people breed but i dont understand why people do it just for the sake of it! seems pointless she obviously got these 2 dogs with the intention of breeding them.


----------



## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> The only thing OP has taken from others posts is about holding during mating... To clarify, I hadn't meant for These two dogs. I'll be more blunt than before; if you breed your male to your girl it will be an incredibly risky and therefor unethical mating that could and likely would result in complications for the bitch and pups. I'm sure your dogs health means more to you than keeping someone else's lines going (which they will be doing themselves with other experienced breeders).


i doubt it does as im guessing she bought these dogs with the intention of breeding them, otherwise why would you buy a male & Female and not get them done???


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

I still don't see a thread in the breeding section.


----------



## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> I still don't see a thread in the breeding section.


i keep looking too lol just keep looking for the person name to appear lol and no pics put up like they said they would


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

dexter12 said:


> i keep looking too lol just keep looking for the person name to appear lol and no pics put up like they said they would


What do you wanna bet that in 60 or so days, there'll be a thread about problems in whelping?


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> yes they are registered i have papers for both.


what 'kind' of papers if you examine them closely you will find , they are not kennel club papers , as the breed you have isn't officially recognized by this kennel club.
The home for dog owners and those working with dogs - The Kennel Club
so if you tell us what kind of papers you have for each dog , it would be helpful.



debodeebs said:


> i understand my male is a big male compared to others and my female is slightly smaller then her usual. I understand where you are coming from as my female does move forward when he is on her. Before i put them back together i will try and find out weather they are compatable for each other and then take the precautionary measures further that are needed.


if your bitch is undersized for her breed then they shouldnt be placed together at all , she's really imcompatible for your male and shouldnt be within reach of him at all. your putting a dog just over 3 -4 stones to one that weighs 10-12 stones



debodeebs said:


> female is quite a slim build and probably only weighs around 50-60 pounds where's my male weighs around 150-170 pounds (he is huge with a bear head lol)


wheres the logic in that ???? or the thought for safety of your bitch , make no mistake this isnt a ''lol'' matter.



debodeebs said:


> I do not want luna(my female) to end up in the evts late at night mainly for her own safety.


if you continue with this breeding that IS exactly what will happen.


----------



## dexter12 (Aug 28, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> What do you wanna bet that in 60 or so days, there'll be a thread about problems in whelping?


i would bet alot on it! def another post to do with her bitch being pregnant. doubt its the last we have heard about it!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

debodeebs said:


> hi i have 2 american bulldogs one is a normal johnson bulldog (male) and the female is a old tyme johnson. the problem is that my female is quite a slim build and probably only weighs around 50-60 pounds where's my male weighs around 150-170 pounds (he is huge with a bear head lol) now when mating he keeps pulling her to the ground with his weight and they try this near enough 24/7 and he keeps getting inpatient and moaning all the time. i know she is letting him as half the time she gets fed up and trys humping him lol. i think she has been on heat for about a week or just over and both anges are 3 and 4 yrs old.
> 
> any opinions people as starting to feel sorry for our male lol.
> 
> many thanks


Ok, you are proposing to mate a male who is more than twice the weight of the female and you wonder why it isn't happening. Put yourself in the dog's place, please, see how comfortable you would be.

If by any chance your female was to conceive by such a huge male, either she could die or the pups will die or both.



debodeebs said:


> yes they are registered i have papers for both. ok thanks for the help i understand my male is a big male compared to others and my female is slightly smaller then her usual. I understand where you are coming from as my female does move forward when he is on her. Before i put them back together i will try and find out weather they are compatable for each other and then take the precautionary measures further that are needed.
> *I do not want luna(my female) to end up in the evts late at night mainly for her own safety*.
> so if it is a go ahead i should hold her as they do let me near then without any aggressive behaviour towards me or my OH i am concerned that is why we posted the thread. i will post another in breeding to see if there is a more experienced breeder that deals with american bulldogs that could give me some usefull info
> 
> thanks allot everyone


I fail to see what the time of day has to do with anything, except that it will cost more and disturb your sleep.

It is common sense to me that what you are doing is dangerous to your bitch, but you still see determined to go ahead :mad2:

It is clearly a waste of time trying to make you understand the dangers.



terencesmum said:


> Sleeping_Lion is in Labs, so she might not be the best person to judge that.
> Actually, the 2 people that spring to mind when it comes to large bully-type breeds are Diablo and Snoringbear.
> And yes, I would love to see pictures of your dogs.


Both of which have given their opinions and pointed out that, whoever your dogs are registered with, it is not the UK Kennel Club.

I am going to move this thread now to the breeding section with the hope that someone might be able to convince the original poster that breeding is not just a matter of letting nature take its course.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

the only KC Ambulls can be reg to is the NKC, most bully shows and weight pulls require them to compete but they are not recognised by the UK kennel club so id take a look at your papers.

You will either kill your bitch or end up seriously out of pocket on a C section. Ambulls are ten a penny unless a top shower or competer so you are honestly setting yourself up for a fall mate, i wouldnt do it.

I looked into getting an Ambull before Shorty as i like the breed but after a few shows and forums stayed well clear, they are worse than children and were always bragging about who had the biggest "man stopper". Im not getting caught up in all that bullsh!t


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Starlite said:


> *Ambulls are ten a penny unless a top shower or competer *so you are honestly setting yourself up for a fall mate, i wouldnt do it.


very true and even then the dogs have to be of exceptional quality and have so many titles before those folks even consider breeding from them.



Starlite said:


> I looked into getting an Ambull before Shorty as i like the breed but after a few shows and forums stayed well clear, they are worse than children and were always bragging about who had the biggest "man stopper". Im not getting caught up in all that bullsh!t


the ambull forums are also extremely bad if the OP thinks they've had a rough time here , it's nothing compared to what they would experience on a UK based american bulldog forum for even considering putting these two dogs together. some are complete nutters i've known some of them track certain others down and confront them at shows / other events along with badmouthing them all over the internet. sh1t sticks and spreads like marg!


----------



## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

diablo said:


> very true and even then the dogs have to be of exceptional quality and have so many titles before those folks even consider breeding from them.
> 
> the ambull forums are also extremely bad if the OP thinks they've had a rough time here , it's nothing compared to what they would experience on a UK based american bulldog forum for even considering putting these two dogs together. some are complete nutters i've known some of them track certain others down and confront them at shows / other events along with badmouthing them all over the internet. sh1t sticks and spreads like marg!


blimey sounds terrifying !!! 
and i though the Chinese Crested lot were bad 

OP you have a lot of excellent advice.

It is comparable to covering my golden retriever (big bitch) with a dogue de bordeux, totally irresponsible :eek6:

If you would like another puppy, find a good breeder one that has had the hips and elbows scored the eyes tested and the DNA tests done


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

diablo said:


> very true and even then the dogs have to be of exceptional quality and have so many titles before those folks even consider breeding from them.
> 
> the ambull forums are also extremely bad if the OP thinks they've had a rough time here , it's nothing compared to what they would experience on a UK based american bulldog forum for even considering putting these two dogs together. some are complete nutters i've known some of them track certain others down and confront them at shows / other events along with badmouthing them all over the internet. sh1t sticks and spreads like marg!


totally agree. a fair few of the competitors owners are complete nutjobs, they wouldnt look out of place running riot on a London council estate (no effence to anyone who does live on one lol!) I didnt want involved with such extreme people


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> blimey sounds terrifying !!!
> and i though the Chinese Crested lot were bad
> 
> OP you have a lot of excellent advice.
> ...


sadly i aint making any of this up
i know of one incident where a person was hounded away , their bitch was health tested but the male they decided to use wasnt , simply went ahead and used him because the dog were the progeny of a dog that was highly titled , not only over here but germany i think it were too.
by the time they had finished with that person a few people had made sure the pups were not saleable for the price these dogs were commanding at the time four pups left them at nearly a year old  :scared: those were given away due to fights breaking out between those and their existing dogs.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Starlite said:


> totally agree. a fair few of the competitors owners are complete nutjobs, they wouldnt look out of place running riot on a London council estate (no effence to anyone who does live on one lol!) *I didnt want involved with such extreme people*


agreed!
the bad thing is , does the dogs no favours as the dogs are beautiful , i met one renowned american bulldog person probably around 16 years ago now because i were interested and still are to a point in the dogs , sat chatting to them for an hour or so about the dogs and their plans for the future and to be totally honest i were terrified in their company! definitely wasnt a visit where someone should turn up on their own , which i did shame tho because the dogs were almost for sure , pole extentions


----------



## BumbleFluff (Jul 23, 2011)

its a shame that everyone is giving such great advice yet this person is still willing to kill their bitch and pups


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

BumbleFluff said:


> its a shame that everyone is giving such great advice yet this person is still willing to kill their bitch and pups


hopefully OP will come back on and clarify a few things , what kind of papers for one that they have that relate to the dogs and confirm as to whether health tests (not checks) have been carried out on their dogs.
as snoringbear mentioned there are problems with the breed and one is a very nasty genetic one.
[youtube_browser]mS1iHh1XbKE[/youtube_browser]


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diablo said:


> hopefully OP will come back on and clarify a few things , what kind of papers for one that they have that relate to the dogs and confirm as to whether health tests (not checks) have been carried out on their dogs.
> as snoringbear mentioned there are problems with the breed and one is a very nasty genetic one.
> [youtube_browser]mS1iHh1XbKE[/youtube_browser]


My God that is heart breaking


----------



## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

diablo said:


> [youtube_browser]mS1iHh1XbKE[/youtube_browser]


Oh God! 
How sad. And still so happy even right at the end.


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> Oh God!
> How sad. And still so happy even right at the end.





Sleeping_Lion said:


> My God that is heart breaking


i know , terribly sad 
its a really important test and i cant agree to breeding dogs that havent had this one , hips and elbows are just as important though.
hopefully OP will come on watch the video and realise that if breeding is to be undertaken , not to do it this time around until tests have been completed. and of course must insist that a suitable stud is sought if they really insist on going down the breeding route.
no dog should have to suffer like that


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DIABLO: Thanks for posting that. I am not going to watch it and upset myself, but if it puts off anyone who is thinking of breeding, it is a great contribution.


----------



## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Vet checks aren't health tests. Health test for American Bulldog are hip and elbow scoring and Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis. The first two require xrays and are evaluated by the BVA, the latter is DNA test. American Bulldogs are not a KC recognised breed so cannot be KC registered. There's no such type as Old Tyme Johnson, do you mean Old Southern? In my breed someone did try putting a much larger dog to a much smaller bitch. The dog jumped on her and broke her spine. She had to be PTS.


That is one of the most sadest things I think I hav ever read, the pain that poor girl must have gone through  



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Vets don't generally have a lot of knowledge about the various issues surrounding canine reproduction, their knowledge is much more general, and their assessment of your dog will not equate to a health test, it means your dogs look healthy, and are capable of reproduction, or attempting to. It's not in the interest of your vets to tell you not to go ahead and try for a litter, after all, you will spend money with them one way or another by breeding, my vets did waive some of the bills from the litter I had, but I still ended up £3k in the red.
> 
> Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes.
> Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated.
> So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.


WOW That is awful  I think most people just think the dogs play for a bit then mate and its all flowers and chocolates  Im sooo glad my boy has no bits!!



debodeebs said:


> yes they are registered i have papers for both. ok thanks for the help i understand my male is a big male compared to others and my female is slightly smaller then her usual. I understand where you are coming from as my female does move forward when he is on her. Before i put them back together i will try and find out weather they are compatable for each other and then take the precautionary measures further that are needed.
> I do not want luna(my female) to end up in the evts late at night mainly for her own safety.
> so if it is a go ahead i should hold her as they do let me near then without any aggressive behaviour towards me or my OH i am concerned that is why we posted the thread. i will post another in breeding to see if there is a more experienced breeder that deals with american bulldogs that could give me some usefull info
> 
> thanks allot everyone


Can you please come back and tell us what you are going to do? Did you read up about the health tests you need to have done on both of your dogs so the puppies do not suffer? Also are you happy to raise them or lose mum due to the fact dad is too big for her?  



dexter12 said:


> i didnt mean people shouldnt bother, what i meant was people are giving advice and asking her questions and when you look back through her replies she dont really seem to take on board what anyone says. about the vet check being different to health tests she never mentioned those again. just seems like she has asked a question but has no intention of taking anything on board.


Its the breeding thread what do you expect? People only want the answers or advice THEY are happy with, if someone else chips in and they dont like what they say they ignore it or get defensive and never take it on board as the people Always think that they are in the right or are doing the best for their animals, which in reality isnt true, its what they want to do, not the pet!



dexter12 said:


> oh no really ! so im guessing you would go back to one of the events again then ay!:lol: well hopefully if she/he posts this question in the breeding bit some people with the same breed will tell her why its not a good idea!
> i understand why people breed but i dont understand why people do it just for the sake of it! seems pointless she obviously got these 2 dogs with the intention of breeding them.


I think its mainly £££££££££££ with this type of breeding, Or they 'fancy' a litter, I cant honestly think of any other reason??  It is extremly pointless to breed for the sake of it, every pet should be neutered!



diablo said:


> hopefully OP will come back on and clarify a few things , what kind of papers for one that they have that relate to the dogs and confirm as to whether health tests (not checks) have been carried out on their dogs.
> as snoringbear mentioned there are problems with the breed and one is a very nasty genetic one.
> [youtube_browser]mS1iHh1XbKE[/youtube_browser]


I couldnt bare to watch the video, but surely a person with a a heart or a conscience would breed a litter of puppies knowing that they could inflict this on a puppy


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

catlove844 said:


> I couldnt bare to watch the video, but surely a person with a a heart or a conscience would breed a litter of puppies knowing that they could inflict this on a puppy


Because famous last words: 'It won't happen to me'


----------



## Netpon (Feb 21, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> . I am not people think that american bulldogs are a aggressive breed but having owned 2 for a couple of yeasrs i have found that they are very loyal and kind dogs espeically to my children ( my male is very protective of my sons) and they are a joy to have as additions to my family.


Having owned 2 dogs of a certain breed for a 'couple years' does not make you qualified to breed! A breeder should know their breed inside and out, have at least attended dog shows (if not entered) and read up on conformation. Studied both dogs' heritage and have some knowlegde of any health problems any of the parents/grandparents etc etc have encountered.

Wanting to carry on the dogs' 'champion' bloodlines is up to their breeders, not you. Do both your dogs' breeders know you are planning to breed? Any decent breeder would have put restrictions on their pedigrees to prevent them being bred from without their consent.

And if theres one thing this country really does not need at the moment, its more bull breed dogs!


----------



## Guest (Oct 18, 2012)

Netpon said:


> Any decent breeder would have put restrictions on their pedigrees to prevent them being bred from without their consent.


are not 100% sure if thats possible with NKC or ABA registrations. infact i dont think it is , will find out!


----------



## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I have just googled the OPs name to see if I could find pictures of the dogs as I am interested in the different looks of the "types"of bulldog.

ultimate taugh heavy duty ball for big dogs - YouTube

my 2 male american bulldogs - YouTube

Can anyone tell me which is which? :confused1:

I hope the male used isn't the one in video 1 as it clearly has some issues that need dealing with.

Back to the actual thread,
I dont have anything to say that's not already been said. I bred my bitch and she whelped in April this year, everything went great but whelping supplies and puppies feed cost me a small fortune. (about £2000) and when my girl got a small infection that cost me £200 for a weeks worth of anti-biotics. (out of hours!)

To add size problems into the list of potential conditions she could suffer from during pregnancy is selfish to say the least. There's nothing to benefit her or the "breed" by this mating when no health tests have been done.


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2012)

shetlandlover said:


> I have just googled the OPs name to see if I could find pictures of the dogs as I am interested in the different looks of the "types"of bulldog.
> 
> Can anyone tell me which is which? :confused1:


one with the collar on looks like a johnson type the other looks as if it's a mixture of johnson/performance lines.
as for the one vid , oh f***ing hell is all i can say!!!not good , mortified to be honest that someone thinks that's acceptable behaviour coming from a dog , especially when it looks like that is the one being used for breeding!!!!


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

catlove844 said:


> That is one of the most sadest things I think I hav ever read, the pain that poor girl must have gone through   (


Both myself and my dogs knew her, but not her new owner. It was an unsupervised mating, which is a cautionary tale in itself.


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

If that's the dog in the video then for goodness sake what's wrong with some people? I don't like the body language of the dog, it's eyes look weird, kinda like infected and the size of the macho collar speaks volumes! 

Bet he gets pulled down the street by it too for that special effect - 'look how strong my boy is!'  Health tested - ha ha ha, not on your life!! 
Those dogs live in filth by the look of it and I wouldn't touch any pup from there with a barge pole!

Was angry at the start of this thread and even more so now so I'm outta here!


----------



## Kleekai (Oct 14, 2012)

I would have a chat with the breeders of your dogs


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

debodeebs said:


> I would just like to thankyou for your concerns, my dogs get vet checked fairly regular and the vet does know that we were intending to breed when ready i have waited untill a good age so i know that they could breed good dogs. both my dogs are kc registered and was breeding through that system.


Getting your dogs regularly checked by the vets is not the same as getting them health-tested.

I breed, all my dogs are fully health-tested bar a PRA test on one of my boys still to be done, and as far as I'm concerned, the less my dogs see the vet the better (certainly not something I want to be a regular occurrence - if it was - I would be asking myself why ).

I was concerned about bringing together two dogs of the same breed with different builds and just a couple of kgs difference in their weight.

In contrast - the dog in this situation is more or less THREE times the size of the bitch  Apart from anything else, that would make me question their conformation to breed standard - I know there are generally size differences stipulated in breed standards between dogs and bitches, but I would be more than a little shocked for the variance to be as diverse as the one you refer to.

This means that one of the dogs is highly unlikely to be a good example of the breed - whether that is the dog or bitch is something YOU should be researching before thinking of mating them.

Ask yourself how you would cope if someone at least 45kg heavier than you jumped on your back - I think you would probably lie down as well and would probably be objecting as vocally as possible.

Whilst not unheard of (I speak from experience) you don't get many bitches ready for mating at such an early stage in their season - has she been progesterone tested?

People are not being nasty, insulting, or as some very succinctly put it in the past, "cliquey"- their response emanate from a concern for both your dogs, and any pups they may produce (not to mention the owners taking on pups from un-health-tested parents.

I would seriously advise doing some more breed research - if this size difference is considered the norm in the breed standard, then there is not much left to say, but I suspect it is highly unlikely.

Once you have done your research, if the bitch is a good example of the breed - get her health tests done and find a stud dog far more appropriate for her physically.

Get your boy neutered for his and your bitches sake.


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2012)

swarthy said:


> In contrast - the dog in this situation is more or less THREE times the size of the bitch  Apart from anything else, that would make me question their conformation to breed standard - I know there are generally size differences stipulated in breed standards between dogs and bitches, but I would be more than a little shocked for the variance to be as diverse as the one you refer to.


this is often the case swarthy with different strains , there are a few strains which is why there's some confusion over breed standards relating to american bulldogs painter / hines / scott dogs are very often more slight than the 'johnson' strain - the johnson strain basically being the show type version , if people have done their homework , it's usually the 'johnson' strain most people will avoid.
heres a link explaining the different sizes , strains and weights with the breed.
American Bulldog Types and Blood Lines


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

diablo said:


> this is often the case swarthy with different strains , there are a few strains which is why there's some confusion over breed standards relating to american bulldogs painter / hines / scott dogs are very often more slight than the 'johnson' strain - the johnson strain basically being the show type version , if people have done their homework , it's usually the 'johnson' strain most people will avoid.
> heres a link explaining the different sizes , strains and weights with the breed.
> American Bulldog Types and Blood Lines


Thanks will take a look when we are back from the vets (lmao - how ironic when I normally never see them)

Whatever the difference in strains - would you be bringing these two dogs together - there is at LEAST 45kg difference in weight - thats one and a third of one of my Labs


----------



## Guest (Oct 19, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Thanks will take a look when we are back from the vets (lmao - how ironic when I normally never see them)
> 
> Whatever the difference in strains - would you be bringing these two dogs together - there is at LEAST 45kg difference in weight - thats one and a third of one of my Labs


something i definitely would not consider at all , i cant condone such a huge difference in size , no matter what an article happens to say , nothing good will come of such breeding only heartache where that poor bitch is concerned
hope all goes well at the vets and nothing too serious!


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

diablo said:


> something i definitely would not consider at all , i cant condone such a huge difference in size , no matter what an article happens to say , nothing good will come of such breeding only heartache where that poor bitch is concerned
> hope all goes well at the vets and nothing too serious!


Thanks - just routine weight checks and worming tablets 

My youngest boy has out on just 0.6kg - grrrrrr - these boys, I just can't get weight on them !!!

My girl OTOH has lost 3 kg  so just below her "standard weight" - but given she is getting older and has dodgy hips and a bad knee - am hoping to get another 1kg or so off her

================

But to come back to the thread topic - will have a look at those links and update my original post..

Whatever the differences, I can't get my head around mating two dogs of such HUGE weigh differences - blimey - my eldest boy is only 32kg and he's a big strong dog who can push a bitch down if not held - yet here we are talking generally a kg or two - with the likelihood that some bitches weigh more than both my boys yet are not carrying any fat (my boys are quite lean - too lean if anything  ) .


----------



## Guest (Oct 20, 2012)

swarthy said:


> Thanks - just routine weight checks and worming tablets
> 
> My youngest boy has out on just 0.6kg - grrrrrr - these boys, I just can't get weight on them !!!
> 
> My girl OTOH has lost 3 kg  so just below her "standard weight" - but given she is getting older and has dodgy hips and a bad knee - am hoping to get another 1kg or so off her


am glad it was all a routine thing and nothing serious 



swarthy said:


> Whatever the differences, I can't get my head around mating two dogs of such HUGE weigh differences - blimey - my eldest boy is only 32kg and he's a big strong dog who can push a bitch down if not held - yet here we are talking generally a kg or two - with the likelihood that some bitches weigh more than both my boys yet are not carrying any fat (my boys are quite lean - too lean if anything  ) .


i agree and even though the OP don't appear to have come back on i hope they do and reconsider using their two dogs together , even if all health tests had been done i still couldnt agree with placing these two dogs together and all that aside , theres no market for them anyway. 
i remember when american bulldogs first came here , you were looking at between £1000 - £2000 or more for a pup , now pups are often found for £150 - £500 or very often given away for free! because even responsible breeders are now finding , they just cannot find responsible loving homes for their puppies. if you browse the free ads you will see many , many adverts for them , they are fast becoming the new 'staffy' things are so bad for them important people within the breed started to recognize there is becoming a huge 'rescue' problem with these dogs , the dogs even having their own breed rescue which was integrated with bullies in need after a short while , which was pushed through and set up by people who love and had massive concerns for breed , if you look on their site they are even saying;



> SADLY WE ARE UNABLE TO TAKE IN ANY MORE DOGS AT THE MOMENT


so sadly now they are rammed full
BULLIES IN NEED - Bullies In Need

even the best of the best are only breeding when they need to keep something back for themselves because they can't justify any other reason for breeding these dogs , so no excuses at all for anyone fairly new to the breed to be breeding these dogs now full stop , let alone someone who don't appear to know what they are doing.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

debodeebs said:


> hi i have 2 american bulldogs one is a normal johnson bulldog (male) and the female is a old tyme johnson. the problem is that my female is quite a slim build and probably only weighs around 50-60 pounds where's my male weighs around 150-170 pounds (he is huge with a bear head lol) now when mating he keeps pulling her to the ground with his weight and they try this near enough 24/7 and he keeps getting inpatient and moaning all the time. i know she is letting him as half the time she gets fed up and trys humping him lol. i think she has been on heat for about a week or just over and both anges are 3 and 4 yrs old.
> 
> any opinions people as starting to feel sorry for our male lol.
> 
> many thanks


The use of the term 'pounds' made me think the OP is in the USA or Canada, where these dogs could be registerable with the US KC. In the UK, it's much more common for lbs of kg to be used to describe weight.

Not a pairing to be recommended of course: the different sizes/weights are too extreme. Hope the OP has loads of $$$ - he/she will be needing them.


----------



## Guest (Oct 20, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> The use of the term 'pounds' made me think the OP is in the USA or Canada, where these dogs could be registerable with the US KC. In the UK, it's much more common for lbs of kg to be used to describe weight.
> 
> Not a pairing to be recommended of course: the different sizes/weights are too extreme. Hope the OP has loads of $$$ - he/she will be needing them.


shetlandlover found some vids i then googled and get the impression op is from the UK - american bulldogs aren't even recognised by the AKC.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Burrowzig said:


> The use of the term 'pounds' made me think the OP is in the USA or Canada, where these dogs could be registerable with the US KC. In the UK, it's much more common for lbs of kg to be used to describe weight.
> 
> Not a pairing to be recommended of course: the different sizes/weights are too extreme. Hope the OP has loads of $$$ - he/she will be needing them.


If that were the case he would surely be talking about the dogs being AKC registered. Unfortunately, despite all the warnings and horror stories, I think he has already decided to put his bitch at serious risk and nothing we can do to talk him out of it.


----------



## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> *If that were the case he would surely be talking about the dogs being AKC registered*. Unfortunately, despite all the warnings and horror stories, I think he has already decided to put his bitch at serious risk and nothing we can do to talk him out of it.


Would he/she? Do we in the UK talk about our dogs being UKKC registered? I would have thought it was normal to specify only which KC if you were outside its boundaries.


----------



## Guest (Oct 20, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> Would he/she? Do we in the UK talk about our dogs being UKKC registered? I would have thought it was normal to specify only which KC if you were outside its boundaries.


there are several registries for the american bulldog , as pointed out AKC isn't one of them , if you flick through the videos that shetlandlover found yesterday page 7 you'll find OP is from UK.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

catlove844 said:


> WOW That is awful  I think most people just think the dogs play for a bit then mate and its all flowers and chocolates  Im sooo glad my boy has no bits!!


I've not read every comment / response. but you need to be aware (unless he has had REALLY drastic surgery that your boy can mate and tie with an inseason bitch - he just won't make her pregnant - so all the potential for unplanned matings and damage to both dogs if unsupervised.

(I also know of a neutered dog mating with a bitch NOT in season) - he was a rescue and it could well be he'd "had a previous taste".

Maiden bitches in particular may feel some pain / discomfort on a first mating and have to be held to stop the risk of serious damage to both dogs (even some dogs can be freaked out the first time they get a tie). Even many female women will say they didn't enjoy their first sexual experience, but it certainly doesn't stop most of them from doing it again (if they didn't - the world would stop).

From what I've seen in my own girls, visiting bitches and helping out, many second timers + are as different as can be and if they aren't - then I would stop there and then (as I did with my own girl).

Mating dogs isn't all hearts and flowers - how nice if it was - personally, i never cease to be amazed at the amount of accidental matings between maiden dogs, and suspect that in some instances, they are not accidental at all.

Dogs and bitches who've had previous litters, then yes, I can well believe accidental matings could be more commonplace - my eldest girl would mate with the table leg if she could - she really is shocking


----------



## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

swarthy said:


> I've not read every comment / response. but you need to be aware (unless he has had REALLY drastic surgery that your boy can mate and tie with an inseason bitch - he just won't make her pregnant - so all the potential for unplanned matings and damage to both dogs if unsupervised.
> 
> (I also know of a neutered dog mating with a bitch NOT in season) - he was a rescue and it could well be he'd "had a previous taste".
> 
> ...


Oh wow I did not know that! Dont worry though my baby would not be let near any dog in season or otherwise lol!

I dont think any are accidents, the excuses we hear at the rescue are just silly, a lot of them seem to think that littermates wont mate (who sells people 2 littermate puppies of different sexes together I dont know  ) o blame the builder/friend/neighbour who was looking after them and let them together, then they can't mismate as its 'murder' :cursing:  and they can't put the poor dog/cat through abortion/murder so let her have the litter, or its good to have one before neutering, or get the money back they paid for her so she can 'earn her keep' 

R.E. those videos on youtube, they are shocking!! That dogs head is massive! He doesnt look very happy or friendly either  The type of people who own those dogs round here.... well... not the best type of people that buy them!!  

Someone currently selling pitbulls in Kent!! So shocked!  Proper pitbulls aswell, who would but them? the type of people buying these type of pups I guess?


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

just to clarify things i meant the female is an old tyme aylestone and male is a johnson so my apologies there, and without sounding too rude but this site is very bad for people being rude against other pet ownser's, ive seen loads of threads on here and alot of people get ambushed over questions.
dont get me wrong there is loads that are genuine and help alot but some people are just too snobby and think they know it all rather then say i think i know it all etc.
anyways again i apologise if i come across rude.


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

dexter12 said:


> i doubt it does as im guessing she bought these dogs with the intention of breeding them, otherwise why would you buy a male & Female and not get them done???


 that's my point just jumping to the gun when infact we brought a female to play with our male in the back garden as our other male we had used to none stop scrap to the point where there were blood etc. i was adviced that males tend to not get on and was adviced on getting a female for him, i didnt buy a dog to breed and dont need money unlike some people, i love bulldogs and always will (infact we just brought a new puppy today costing £700 which is a ground shaker old tyme 5 generation champion bulldog,) thats 3 bulldogs i currently own with a very large garden that gets treat like royalty. with the breeding situation it was new to me so i asked on here. she is now off heat and will get her spaded before the next one is due.


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

BumbleFluff said:


> its a shame that everyone is giving such great advice yet this person is still willing to kill their bitch and pups


again wtf? its like you all want people to do bad things when it comes to dogs just to make yourself feel like your the top dog. for your information for the last few days i kept them apart untill season was over and where in the hell did i say I WANT TO BREED? well i didnt it was something that started to happen in front of me so i acted up on it. ive never breed before so dont no a thing about it so for all i know it's "well if a 9 stone women can have 3 9 pounders from a 400 pound man then a dog can etc, now im not saying that as a fact im just saying i dont no anything about breeding so i came on here. if im that bad person that most of you are saying then why am i on here? im pretty shure 60% of the population dont ask for advice they just do it and deal with the conequences.


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

sorry for the rude ranting but serious ive been genuine i didnt get a female to breed with a male but fun company for the male, i clarified my mistake with the old tyme johnson, female was kept away after reading this, but hey all i got out of it was my dogs slagged of so many rude people and just totally disrespectful pulling someone's profile up and slagging there pets off,


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I have just googled the OPs name to see if I could find pictures of the dogs as I am interested in the different looks of the "types"of bulldog.
> 
> ultimate taugh heavy duty ball for big dogs - YouTube
> 
> ...


can a mod please remove this as its rude and other's would'nt like me pulling up video's of there dogs and slag them off and on top of that share a link for everyone else to view,


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

Malmum said:


> If that's the dog in the video then for goodness sake what's wrong with some people? I don't like the body language of the dog, it's eyes look weird, kinda like infected and the size of the macho collar speaks volumes!
> 
> Bet he gets pulled down the street by it too for that special effect - 'look how strong my boy is!'  Health tested - ha ha ha, not on your life!!
> Those dogs live in filth by the look of it and I wouldn't touch any pup from there with a barge pole!
> ...


you dont know nothing about my dog mate, he's had yellow eye's from pup and are healthy even on his up to date vet check. so because my dog has a "macho collar then im an idiot who gets pulled down the street and think im good? what a snobbish idiot, and my garden was being slabbed can you not see the tempory fencing? but you know my lifestyle and pets so what the hell.

serious how can the admin and mods on this site allow this sort of attitude


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

debodeebs said:


> that's my point just jumping to the gun when infact we brought a female to play with our male in the back garden as our other male we had used to none stop scrap to the point where there were blood etc. i was adviced that males tend to not get on and was adviced on getting a female for him, i didnt buy a dog to breed and dont need money unlike some people, i love bulldogs and always will (infact we just brought a new puppy today costing £700 which is a ground shaker old tyme 5 generation champion bulldog,) thats 3 bulldogs i currently own with a very large garden that gets treat like royalty. with the breeding situation it was new to me so i asked on here. she is now off heat and will get her spaded before the next one is due.


What happened to the other male? 

Debodeebs please don't wait for her spaying to do something. I implore you to take her to the vets for a mismate jab just in case. It's best all round that you don't take the risk of waiting.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> Would he/she? Do we in the UK talk about our dogs being UKKC registered? I would have thought it was normal to specify only which KC if you were outside its boundaries.


actually in the States and Canada we always say AKC Reg or CKC Reg and quite often dogs are AKC and CKC reg. The only one I've ever heard called KC is the UK KC...


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

debodeebs said:


> that's my point just jumping to the gun when infact *we brought a female to play with our male in the back garden *as our other male we had used to none stop scrap to the point where there were blood etc. i was adviced that males tend to not get on and was adviced on getting a female for him, i didnt buy a dog to breed and dont need money unlike some people, i love bulldogs and always will (infact we just brought a new puppy today costing £700 which is a ground shaker old tyme 5 generation champion bulldog,) thats 3 bulldogs i currently own with a very large garden that gets treat like royalty. with the breeding situation it was new to me so i asked on here. she is now off heat and will get her spaded before the next one is due.


Then why this:



debodeebs said:


> hi i have 2 american bulldogs one is a normal johnson bulldog (male) and the female is a old tyme johnson. the problem is that my female is quite a slim build and probably only weighs around 50-60 pounds where's my male weighs around 150-170 pounds (he is huge with a bear head lol) now when mating he keeps pulling her to the ground with his weight and they try this near enough 24/7 and he keeps getting inpatient and moaning all the time. i know she is letting him as half the time she gets fed up and trys humping him lol. i think she has been on heat for about a week or just over and both anges are 3 and 4 yrs old.
> 
> any opinions people as starting to feel sorry for our male lol.
> 
> many thanks


You ask where you have said you want to breed. Well take a look at your first post, describing continuous attempts by your too heavy male to mate. Now you are saying you just caught them at it once. Please make up your mind.

You asked and were told why it was dangerous to try to mate your bitch with this dog, yet you keep making excuses instead of taking the advice and saying "fair enough. Don't want to risk my girl".

That is why people have been rude. None of us can stand the idea of this poor bitch going through a mating like this and you have the nerve to say you feel sorry for your male.

Sorry, but if you post on an open forum, people are going to go hunting and find links and post them. That is the nature of the beast.

By your last post you seem to think we have all assumed you can't afford all this, when it is nothing to do with money. Why should we care if you have big garden and have paid £700 for a puppy? Not a lot by our standards, actually, my own pups cost £1500.

I would say get over yourself but you would say I was being rude.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> actually in the States and Canada we always say AKC Reg or CKC Reg and quite often dogs are AKC and CKC reg. The only one I've ever heard called KC is the UK KC...


and as a side note in the States if they say a pup is CKC Reg you have to confirm it is Canadian Kennel Club and not not Continental Kennel Club which is in no way affiliated with the real CKC


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

debodeebs said:


> sorry for the rude ranting but serious ive been genuine i didnt get a female to breed with a male but fun company for the male, i clarified my mistake with the old tyme johnson, female was kept away after reading this, but hey all i got out of it was my dogs slagged of so many rude people and just totally disrespectful pulling someone's profile up and slagging there pets off,


noone has slagged any pets off, just sound advice given as usual .


----------



## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

debodeebs said:


> any opinions people as starting to feel sorry for our male lol.
> 
> many thanks


TBH i feel sorry for the female, being so much smaller than the male


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> just to clarify things i meant the female is an old tyme aylestone and male is a johnson so my apologies there, and without sounding too rude but this site is very bad for people being rude against other pet ownser's, ive seen loads of threads on here and alot of people get ambushed over questions.
> dont get me wrong there is loads that are genuine and help alot but some people are just too snobby and think they know it all rather then say i think i know it all etc.
> anyways again i apologise if i come across rude.


why would you want to put two dogs from totally different breedings together?! 
aside from the fact american bulldogs need health testing for NCL then hips/elbow scores need doing , i'd seriously get the aylestone health tested for EVERYTHING!! hips/elbows/eyes/heart!!!!!!!
aylestones aren't a breed as such , they've had all sorts mixed into their bloodline from , american bulldogs , bulldogs , dogue de bordeaux and (irish staff)
aylestone just happens to be a town where the breeder lives in leicester so really you have nothing special


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> and where in the hell did i say I WANT TO BREED?


You didn't say it specifically, but your post is about them not mating and titled a mating problem - so you obviously *wanted* them to mate


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

i've also just read on another place [CD] wobblers has been found in the aylestone line
any health tests for this ? as i have absolutely no idea!


----------



## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Hmmm - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/102579-johnson-scott-breeding.html#post1582389


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> i love bulldogs and always will* (infact we just brought a new puppy today costing £700 which is a ground shaker old tyme 5 generation champion bulldog,)* thats 3 bulldogs i currently own with a very large garden that gets treat like royalty.



you really should google before you go out buying puppies


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> Hmmm - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/102579-johnson-scott-breeding.html#post1582389


so much for not wanting to breed


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

ok so first im going to say is that when we brought my female we did not buy her solely for breeding, but im not going to explain yet again as i am sick of repeating myself. when the time came to season for her my male was vey aggitated and i will admit i was considering breeding because at the time it was happening. then after watching how wrong the act looked i asked for some advice obviously was told that it was dangerous so i immediatly seperated them. again i do not know allot about breeding safely. 

As for the comment about costing £700 where was i showing off. who goes out and pays £700 just to treat there dogs nastily and neglect them, beleive me there are plenty of bulldogs that you can get for around £250-£300 and heck probibly even outgrow my pup. I put i paid £700 for a pup as im proud of it and and as previously stated I LOVE BULLDOGS.

so you stating that mine was on low mark for price and yours costing £1500 i wouldnt care if my cost £5k doesnt make it any better than other dogs.so £700 might be on the low budget for some peopple like you but really does it make your dog any better than mine???????


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

diablo said:


> why would you want to put two dogs from totally different breedings together?!
> aside from the fact american bulldogs need health testing for NCL then hips/elbow scores need doing , i'd seriously get the aylestone health tested for EVERYTHING!! hips/elbows/eyes/heart!!!!!!!
> aylestones aren't a breed as such , they've had all sorts mixed into their bloodline from , american bulldogs , bulldogs , dogue de bordeaux and (irish staff)
> aylestone just happens to be a town where the breeder lives in leicester so really you have nothing special


did i say i was in any way better or more special than anyone else? those dogs are special to me, and there is two types of aylestone bulldogs so please read properly before slandering again.

there is the old tyme aylestone bulldog (healthier version)
and the old tyme aylestone bulldoggue (the one your talking about)


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

debodeebs said:


> ok so first im going to say is that when we brought my female we did not buy her solely for breeding, but im not going to explain yet again as i am sick of repeating myself. when the time came to season for her my male was vey aggitated and i will admit i was considering breeding because at the time it was happening. then after watching how wrong the act looked i asked for some advice obviously was told that it was dangerous so i immediatly seperated them. again i do not know allot about breeding safely.
> 
> As for the comment about costing £700 where was i showing off. who goes out and pays £700 just to treat there dogs nastily and neglect them, beleive me there are plenty of bulldogs that you can get for around £250-£300 and heck probibly even outgrow my pup. I put i paid £700 for a pup as im proud of it and and as previously stated I LOVE BULLDOGS.
> 
> so you stating that mine was on low mark for price and yours costing £1500 i wouldnt care if my cost £5k doesnt make it any better than other dogs.so £700 might be on the low budget for some peopple like you but really does it make your dog any better than mine???????


I think you are missing the point. You were the one who brought up the issue of money, not me. I was just pointing out that £700 is not a vast amount for a good pedigree dog. Mine cost twice as much because they are a different breed, and that is average price for a good pedigree newfoundland.

But two years ago you were here enquiring about breeding, and now you are saying you don't know much about breeding safely. If that is the case, you should not be breeding at all.

I have never bred anything, but even I know that you don't mate a male to a female when there is such a vast weight difference. That is common sense.


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> did i say i was in any way better or more special than anyone else? those dogs are special to me, and there is two types of aylestone bulldogs so please read properly before slandering again.
> 
> there is the old tyme aylestone bulldog (healthier version)
> and the old tyme aylestone bulldoggue (the one your talking about)


the two types still have the same bloodlines , coming from the same dogs an aylestone is an aylestone however much you dress it up


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I think you are missing the point. You were the one who brought up the issue of money, not me. I was just pointing out that £700 is not a vast amount for a good pedigree dog. Mine cost twice as much because they are a different breed, and that is average price for a good pedigree newfoundland.
> 
> But two years ago you were here enquiring about breeding, and now you are saying you don't know much about breeding safely. If that is the case, you should not be breeding at all.
> 
> I have never bred anything, but even I know that you don't mate a male to a female when there is such a vast weight difference. That is common sense.


i cant remember about posting about breeding 2 yrs ago but thats not saying i didnt say it and yes probably did as when we first got him he was already 2 and was very proud of him. but as for our current female we have had her 6 months now and is same age as our male but was brought for company not to breed but the situation came up and yes i really should of got her spaded, but then i didnt know about breeding at the time and wasnt aware of the health conditions. now that i know all of this i acted on it.


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

diablo said:


> the two types still have the same bloodlines , coming from the same dogs an aylestone is an aylestone however much you dress it up


yes i understand and aylestone's were bread from british bulldogs to make healther versions, but somewhere on google there was a site that rules were being made for the aylestone's for kc approval but then not sure if its already being made as quite a few people are selling old tyme aylestone's with kc registered papers so god knows whats true or not lol.

take a look at the new 2012 version of bulldog's (warwick) OldTymeBulldogs.co.uk - The Best of Bulldog!

what gets me with this kc registration thing is where did those dog's originally come from? im shure all dogs now days is mixed with something.

sorry if i sounded abit dumb but abit confused


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> yes i understand and aylestone's were bread from british bulldogs to make healther versions, but somewhere on google there was a site that rules were being made for the aylestone's for kc approval but then not sure if its already being made as quite a few people are selling old tyme aylestone's with kc registered papers so god knows whats true or not lol.
> 
> take a look at the new 2012 version of bulldog's (warwick) OldTymeBulldogs.co.uk - The Best of Bulldog!
> 
> ...


aylestones cannot be sold with kc papers because they are not recognized by the kennel club , i suggest you contact aylestones themselves to verify this. Aylestone Bulldog | Old English Bulldogs
aylestone bulldogs will definitely NOT get any kc recognition whatsoever especially with two standards , one of the reasons why american bulldogs have never been officially recognized because there are so many different strains that have different standards!
from what i can make out the aylestone is made up of bulldog , dogue de bordeaux , victorian bulldog , american bulldog , and irish staffords.
from what i've read they can't possibly be any healthier than bulldogs , when it's been found that 'wobblers' was/is present in the line , this isn't a disease present in the bulldog (to my knowledge) , so i'd like to know how it possibly got into the aylestone line?


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> But two years ago you were here enquiring about breeding, and now you are saying you don't know much about breeding safely. If that is the case, you should not be breeding at all.


And if the OP was considering breeding 2 years ago and still doesn't know much about it it speaks volumes about how much care will be going into breeding regardless of how much they love their dogs


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

also when reading the history about johnson bulldog's they have been bread with 30% english bulldog in them so how did they get class as a kc full breed?


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> also when reading the history about johnson bulldog's they have been bread with 30% english bulldog in them so how did they get class as a *kc full breed?*


they are not recognized by the kennel club nor will you find they are recognized by the AKC. please check your paperwork.


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> And if the OP was considering breeding 2 years ago and still doesn't know much about it it speaks volumes about how much care will be going into breeding regardless of how much they love their dogs


read the posts above rather then just rant, where have i stuck by stating im going to breed? if i was going to breed from 2 yrs ago i would of done it. i was asking if i should or not as on some site's they advice to aid her but did i do it? did i not come on here and ask? they got seperated as adviced to so whats ya problem.

end of mate just leave it


----------



## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

If I had a problem with a car I`d ask a mechanic. If I had a health issue I`d ask a doctor. If I had a query about breeding a certain breed I`d ask the breed club or a reputable breeder. 
Why do these posts pop up so often?
eta - no I`m not extracting the urine - I`m seriously asking.


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

diablo said:


> they are not recognized by the kennel club nor will you find they are recognized by the AKC. please check your paperwork.


ok i understand just read up on it  could you please explain about papers then. to my understanding i thought you could only obtain champion papers through the kc? this is where i am confused. my male came from 3rd gen champion weight pullers both mum and dad full johnson. the thing that is confusing is when people say he comes with full pedigree champion papers are these diffrent to kc?

doesnt really matter to me weather they have papers or not unless im spending allot of money they are an advantage.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I checked on the KC site for you and I can't find them The links are here for you to double check with someone who isn't trying to rip you off. If you can find them let us know

The Hound Group - Breed Information Centre
The Working Group - Breed Information Centre
The Gundog Group - Breed Information Centre
The Terrier Group - Breed Information Centre
The Utility Group - Breed Information Centre
The Pastoral Group - Breed Information Centre
The Toy Group - Breed Information Centre


----------



## Guest (Nov 12, 2012)

debodeebs said:


> ok i understand just read up on it  could you please explain about papers then. to my understanding i thought you could only obtain champion papers through the kc? this is where i am confused. my male came from 3rd gen champion weight pullers both mum and dad full johnson. the thing that is confusing is when people say he comes with full pedigree champion papers are these diffrent to kc?
> 
> doesnt really matter to me weather they have papers or not unless im spending allot of money they are an advantage.


if your dogs come from champion weight pullers these would have been shows / events set up by the american bulldog registries and the like which have nothing at all to do with the kennel club at all. 
american bulldogs can be registered with several different registries the NKC and the ABA are the two main ones to my knowledge and dogs can be registered with both.
if your confused it's best getting in touch with whoever you purchased your dogs from to explain things.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> If I had a problem with a car I`d ask a mechanic. If I had a health issue I`d ask a doctor. If I had a query about breeding a certain breed I`d ask the breed club or a reputable breeder.
> Why do these posts pop up so often?
> eta - no I`m not extracting the urine - I`m seriously asking.


My first port of call for anything would be my dogs breeder


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

hawksport said:


> My first port of call for anything would be my dogs breeder


I agree if a good breeder, but what if the breeder is equally lacking in knowledge?


----------



## debodeebs (May 16, 2010)

diablo said:


> if your dogs come from champion weight pullers these would have been shows / events set up by the american bulldog registries and the like which have nothing at all to do with the kennel club at all.
> american bulldogs can be registered with several different registries the NKC and the ABA are the two main ones to my knowledge and dogs can be registered with both.
> if your confused it's best getting in touch with whoever you purchased your dogs from to explain things.


thanks i understand now.


----------



## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I agree if a good breeder, but what if the breeder is equally lacking in knowledge?


I wouldn't of lined their pockets in the first place. There is no excuse for ignorance now we have the www


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I wouldn't of lined their pockets in the first place. There is no excuse for ignorance now we have the www


Completely agree and neither would I, but from hearing where people have bought their dogs both on forums and in real life, I suspect far more come from poor breeders than good ones, sadly.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

debodebs, I would definetly find a breeder in your area, really it doesn't have to be a Am Bulldog breeder either. A breeder with a good reputation will know far more about breeding than your vet as far a compatibility in lines than your vet. They will look at both of yours and probably agree the size is an issue for one, you really want your lines to compliment each other throughout a pedigree. Outside of health testing you also want to improve on anything lacking in your female. No dog is perfect when comparing to the standard so you need to check the strengths and weaknesses and try to improve with the male dog selected or vice versa. With my Collies my Male although appearing larger than my female is actually quite abit smaller its all fluff.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

DEBS: really glad that you still seem to be on the forum. Everyone here is so passionate about dogs, and their welfare, and that's why we're all rather alarmed at potential risks for your girl and any pups 

If your dogs haven't had the vital health tests for their breeds/types, PLEASE don't allow them to mate - it's just not worth the risk to the pups. And I'm sure you love your girl and wouldn't want to risk losing her either - and losing her sounds a real possibility if this mating goes ahead...

Personally I would have the girl 'done' but of course that is your call.

Lots of great advice available from some really experienced folk in this forum - do stick around and let them help you


----------

