# Cesar Milan gets bitten - BADLY - by a lab!



## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

For those who have waited a lifetime to see this - and for those who think they are safe using Cesar's techniques - here's what happens when you try to "dominate" your dog:

Dog Whisperer: Showdown with Holly - YouTube!

Thoughts?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Some thoughts here too: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/262100-how-not-handle-resource-guarding.html


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

weve been discussing thius in behaviour section,
he is an absolute idiot and deserved to get bitten,there is something not mentally right with him


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I have seen that video before. 

I personally think he is very good at what he does... and he has done so much excellent work for shelters. Most of his dogs in his rehab centre would be dead without him.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

dandogman said:


> I have seen that video before.
> 
> I personally think he is very good at what he does... and he has done so much excellent work for shelters. Most of his dogs in his rehab centre would be dead without him.


seriously?
absolutley flabbergasted that anyone thinks that what he does is good!!
That dog gave him plenty of warnings,which he completley ignored,
Nothing he does is good,end of


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## Lola71 (Feb 23, 2011)

I've only ever heard of him through posts on here, never seen him 'in action'.
WTF does he think he is doing to that poor lab?? If a dog growls and shows its teeth then back the hell off. I know that i and i've only owned my dog almost two years.....what a doofus!

rrr::mad2:


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## Nukawin (Sep 12, 2012)

I admit I did really idolise Cesar, but I've only been here a short time and I'm starting to see why he's not so liked. I'm rather disappointed now, with myself for being so blind, and him for his ''techniques''.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> weve been discussing thius in behaviour section,
> he is an absolute idiot and deserved to get bitten,there is something not mentally right with him


:heads off to behaviour section:

Mods...can we merge this thread at all??



Dandogman: I'm not saying the guy is the devil, but in this particular video he got it ALL wrong. The issue here was with the human and not the dog. Surey you would agree?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

My thoughts? Holly - you go girl!! :thumbup: About time the bully got a taste of his own medicine.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


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## Lara1988 (Aug 8, 2012)

I can't stand that man, he makes my blood boil. My husband won't let me watch his show as I get telly rage.

It's scary to think how many people are sat at home watching and thinks his an actual expert as his on the telly.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


Neither do I, and I don't think that at all. Similarly, I cannot see how people think it is acceptable for Cesar to treat dogs the way he does.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

classixuk said:


> :heads off to behaviour section:
> 
> Mods...can we merge this thread at all??
> 
> ...


I can see that, yes I will admit that he went to far in this clip. I wouldn't use this method with a FA dog... but I was sticking up for him in other instances as it just ends up with people posting crap about him! These Cesar threads normally turn into arguments and slagging matches!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


I don't think people do; it's just the method of stopping the behaviour - intimidation or teaching the dog that they have nothing to fear from people approaching their resources using kinder methods.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


what about if you were sitting eating a lovely steak (or whatever is your thing) and i come up to you and took it off you for no reason...would you be angry?


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

no its not acceptable,but its also not acceptable for someone to ignore a dogs warning signals to the point where they have no choice but to defend themselves!!!
Flooding a dog does not cure it


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I have seen that video before.
> 
> I personally think he is very good at what he does... and he has done so much excellent work for shelters. Most of his dogs in his rehab centre would be dead without him.


May I ask how it is that you have seen that video before when the episode only aired for the first time yesterday?


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


It's not. That's why you teach the dog that food and humans = great stuff.

In this video Cesar was trying to find a quick fix to something the owner should have worked at slowly, and in the end they both got totally pwned by the dog!

Go dog! LOL.

Seriously though, there are better ways to encourage food manners. I would have started with the owner before I thought of 'fixing the dog'.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Well that went really well did'nt it,I really think the man plays to the cameras to much


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Well done Holly! Shame she only got one of his hands! :thumbup:

Can't really comprehend any of his methods but why he needed to hit her really flummoxed me. Lots of calming signals going on there, that's a stressed dog.
Don't know much about working with resource guarding but that just seemed... stupid. I certainly wouldn't practically sit on something being guarded and wave my hands in her face!


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

He is one "Sick" dominating energy! he makes me shudder in how he tries to dominate dogs.....Phew! I just hope people dont follow his so called "advice"....
I hope to god the dog wasnt pts because of this!... he his so FULL of himself hes scary!!


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


Another question for you, and Im generally curious as this is a common response by those who support heavy handed methods.
How do you make the leap from me not liking how Cesar handles the resource guarding (which BTW did NOT work as the dog still lost her home anyway), how do you leap from thats not an effective way to deal with resource guarding to its okay for dogs to growl and snap when you approach their food?

IOW, where is ANYONE saying a dog growling over food is okay? Its not. But this is NOT how you fix it. And indeed Cesar himself proves that this is not how you fix it as he was not able to fix the dog. Only able to saddle her with a bite history and less inhibition TO bite.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


I quite agree.

He is obviously well used to being bitten, all the stuff he needed to treat the wound was on hand (and on his hand very quickly :ciappa


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


I have a dog that resource guards some of his food, so do I whack him round the head and kick him (when holly bites that is a full on kick) no I don't I buidl his trust, I add things to his bowl I teach him that me being near his food is a good thing not a bad thing, I swap for a higher valued treat, now if I approach Bosleys bowl he gets excited as he knows something good is gonig to happen, I can feed all three of my dogs in the same room, I can take raw bones from him. Not once have I EVER invoked that reaction from my dog and I would be ashamed and disgusted in myself if i did!!

If that man knew anything about dog body language he wouldn't have gone to stroke her as it was obvious that she was really nervous and unhappy, and she thought he was going to jab her again.

Plus that dog is not that food aggressive, she didn't dive straight into her bowl she had to be tempted, she was fine eating with him near her bowl it was only when he went to touch her bowl she growled. No not acceptable but the fear and damage he instilled in that dog is going to take a much longer time to fix than her origional food aggression.

This is not the first Ceaser video I have seen where he gets bitten for failing to read a dogs body language.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Thorne said:


> Well done Holly! Shame she only got one of his hands! :thumbup:
> 
> Can't really comprehend any of his methods but why he needed to hit her really flummoxed me. Lots of calming signals going on there, that's a stressed dog.
> Don't know much about working with resource guarding but that just seemed... stupid. I certainly wouldn't practically sit on something being guarded and wave my hands in her face!


have you ever thought about a career as one of those people who describes things to blind people, because you'd be very good at it. That summary was spot on, and funny too!

"I certainly wouldn't practically sit on something being guarded and wave my hands in her face!" - is exactly what he's doing (just watched it again with the sound off)!


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

Never heard of this guy.. but he looks like a complete idiot. Why on earth would anyone let him come and sort their dogs behaviour out? Plonker!


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## leannelatty (Aug 14, 2009)

I used to idolise Cesar  until i came on here and realised there were better ways. I believe some of his methods do work with certain dogs with specific issues but overall positive reinforcement is the way to go! 

The bite from Holly didnt look that bad to be honest!!!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

leannelatty said:


> I used to idolise Cesar  until i came on here and realised there were better ways. I believe some of his methods do work with certain dogs with specific issues but overall positive reinforcement is the way to go!
> 
> The bite from Holly didnt look that bad to be honest!!!


I don't think it was that bad but I suppose a bite is a bite and it woudl still have to be declared she had a 'bite history' if ever going to kennels. the vet, rehoming etc.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

What sickens me is he has earnt so much money telling people to treat dogs in such a bad way , the dogs are scared of him but of course they will do as he says as its him that feeds him, i hate to think of what will happen to the dog that bit hi when its behind closed doors, no wonder so many dogs are treated badly today when people see what they think are results with a dog so they copy what he does which in turn results in more people having untrained ,aggresive dogs, if only there was a law that if you get a dog/puppy you must by law take that dog to a decent training club.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Dandogman: I'm not saying the guy is the devil, but in this particular video he got it ALL wrong. The issue here was with the human and not the dog. Surey you would agree?[/QUOTE]

No hes not the devil! BUT!! he is one heck of an up himself "celebrity" so called trainer.... I first encounted this man a few years ago, my Daughter sang his praises, I watched his "training" videos and "Felt" something not right with him!! I am a person who goes by "gut instinct" and boy did he scream of "DOMINATION"....this is NOT what we want for our pets....we want loyalty and TRUST...this would never happen following this domineering idiot... hes an accident waiting to happen...Oooops, it already did TO HIM


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## Maggs (Aug 10, 2012)

Never heard about the guy before, but honestly he has teased the dog to be bitten in my opinion. Hope the dog has not been pts after this accident, she looked really nice. Wish her owner would try and sort the issue with resource guarding out without fear and dominance but rather by showing the dog all good things come from human, and if you take their bowl away, you will return it back with even a higher quality treat!


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

leannelatty said:


> I used to idolise Cesar  until i came on here and realised there were better ways. I believe some of his methods do work with certain dogs with specific issues but overall positive reinforcement is the way to go!
> 
> The bite from Holly didnt look that bad to be honest!!!


Agree!....but have to say his way of doing things WILL lead to it becoming a hell of a lot worse....his teachings are really despicable, when one "energy" wants to dominate another energy you are talking serious consequences! this guy is seriously scary in his so called dog training, he borders on making the dogs so scared to do anything! do you want a dog thats scared of you? or a pet that wants to please you? if its the latter, find alternative ways to build trust with you and your dog.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Rupert is getting guarding behaviour over food last couple weeks. He had pancreatitis so couldn't keep anything down for two days then was starved for three days. And he is on steroids to add to greediness.

If anyone ever did something like that to either of my dogs I'd bite them myself


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Does anyone else see a connection here:

I re-watched the video a couple of times, and something the owner says strikes me as odd - "She wasn't like this with you before?" and Cesar answers "No".

It seems as if the dog did not react like this with Cesar when using the same techniques earlier in the day when the owner was not present. The dog whisperer was called in by the owner as the dog has these issues with HIM.

And in the video, when the dog reacts to Cesar, the owner is standing behind him.

I really do wonder if there is something the owner is / is not doing with the dog to result in this behaviour when he is around her food?


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I've said it a million times. His show is on TV for the ratings. It's pure entertainment and blatantly obvious with this video. There's nothing like a dog bite to bring the ratings up.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Does anyone else see a connection here:
> 
> I re-watched the video a couple of times, and something the owner says strikes me as odd - "She wasn't like this with you before?" and Cesar answers "No".
> 
> ...


Interesting, well observed! Didn't really hear what he said first time around, was too busy watching the dog.

Might have to track down the full episode, although I'm sure the actual process will have been omitted and only the "best" bits aired 

"Didn't see that coming" - HOW?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

classixuk said:


> Does anyone else see a connection here:
> 
> I re-watched the video a couple of times, and something the owner says strikes me as odd - "She wasn't like this with you before?" and Cesar answers "No".
> 
> ...


*My last gsd would have reacted in the same way.I had him for quite some time before i realised he had a problem with people going near his food.
I lived with it.
ps....must add, i still think CM is tops.*


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *My last gsd would have reacted in the same way.I had him for quite some time before i realised he had a problem with people going near his food.
> I lived with it.
> ps....must add, i still think CM is tops.*


Hear, hear xx


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Another question for you, and Im generally curious as this is a common response by those who support heavy handed methods.
> How do you make the leap from me not liking how Cesar handles the resource guarding (which BTW did NOT work as the dog still lost her home anyway), how do you leap from thats not an effective way to deal with resource guarding to its okay for dogs to growl and snap when you approach their food?
> 
> IOW, where is ANYONE saying a dog growling over food is okay? Its not. But this is NOT how you fix it. And indeed Cesar himself proves that this is not how you fix it as he was not able to fix the dog. Only able to saddle her with a bite history and less inhibition TO bite.


It just seems to be getting more common and people seem to be accepting it, that is all, just stating something I have noticed.
I have said this isn't really an effective way to deal with this type of dog, but that doesn't make me respect him less - we all make mistakes.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

If it's only just aired in the states then it won't have aired over here yet. New eps are Tues 8pm on nat geo wild and I'll track down which one this is and when it's going out over here when I'm back at work on Tuesday.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

GoldenShadow said:


> Rupert is getting guarding behaviour over food last couple weeks. He had pancreatitis so couldn't keep anything down for two days then was starved for three days. And he is on steroids to add to greediness.
> 
> If anyone ever did something like that to either of my dogs I'd bite them myself


Bless you! I would have done the same!! my Dylan was diabetic and one of the awful side affects with this illness he was hungry all the time....broke my heart! and if that sick Cesar was anywhere near my Dylan because of so called "food obsession" I would have not only bite him I would have ****** him....but have to add to this, my boy never did develop food guarding, he just suffered in silence, god I miss him so much...............


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I've misread my dog in the past, and we are dealing with resource guarding issues, even i felt uncomfortable watching that video, he asked for it


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't know anyone who thinks it's acceptable for a dog to growl, snap and bite when its food is approached. But this dog didn't do that. She was fine with him there right by her food, she only objected when he went to take it away. And how many of us humans wouldn't object if someone took our food away for no reason? I know I bloody would! 

There are far better (and safer!) ways of dealing with resource guarding than forcing the dog to give up what it's guarding.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Why would you try and teach a dog that resource guarding is bad by hitting it


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Okay so i just watched the video and i have to ask how long has this guy been 'rehabilitating dogs'?? Just before he was bitten he was saying "you can see here the relaxation" ermmm funny i didnt see that i saw a very nervous dog that didnt want a stranger invading her personal space like some crouching tiger hidden dragon ninja!! If i was a dog, then again even if i wasnt, and someone came up in my face like that i would most certainly bite him, though i would be aiming else where  nothing about that poor dog is relaxed.

I started frey out early in regards to resource guarding, i would pick up her food and ask her to walk away, if she did then she got a tasty treat for doing it, that way she learns that me touching her food/bones (and toys) is a good thing as she can get something out of it. She is 4 years old and i still do this with her every now and again, just to make sure that she knows its still a good thing


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

dandogman said:


> It just seems to be getting more common and people seem to be accepting it, that is all, just stating something I have noticed.
> I have said this isn't really an effective way to deal with this type of dog, but that doesn't make me respect him less - we all make mistakes.


Resource guarding is NORMAL dog behavior. Its not something thats getting more common, dogs have always had this behavior. What is more common is a lack of common sense dealing with it. I will never understand why people think its okay to bother a dog who is trying to eat. As a kid I was taught to NEVER bother a dog eating - you know the whole let sleeping and eating dogs lay?

Yes, we all make mistakes, but we dont advertise our mistakes as training and then blame the dog for not responding to the training.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

tashax said:


> I started frey out early in regards to resource guarding, i would pick up her food and ask her to walk away, if she did then she got a tasty treat for doing it, that way she learns that me touching her food/bones (and toys) is a good thing as she can get something out of it. She is 4 years old and i still do this with her every now and again, just to make sure that she knows its still a good thing


Same here, Scooter from day one was encouraged to associate humans near his food as good so fortunately we've not had a problem with him. He has growled once with food - a pitta bread of all things!
My youngest sister was 2 when Scooter came home so that was part of his "childproofing". My parent's previous dog tolerated us as kids but did guard her food from us and my other sister was nipped a couple of times. We left her alone and managed her guarding by not putting her in a situation where she felt it was necessary.

NB I do not feel that resource guarding is acceptable per se BUT I think it's asking for trouble to "train" a dog out of it by confronting them until they back down. Our guarding collie would only react if hands were near her bowl, neck or face (and I would too!) and to give her credit she gave a lot of warning. Being in the same room was happily tolerated, getting yourself close enough to take the food was not.
Personally I can't see any method other than positive reinforcement and associations working to "cure" resource guarding yet here we are!

When we got her I was amazed that Breeze doesn't resource guard at all. She was fed once a day with 3 or 4 other dogs and has never showed them, me, Scooter or anyone else any form of aggression. She has scars on her head from a kennelmate who was guarding her food, seems she's just too nice to retaliate bless her


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

dandogman said:


> It just seems to be getting more common and people seem to be accepting it, that is all, just stating something I have noticed.
> I have said this isn't really an effective way to deal with this type of dog, but that doesn't make me respect him less - we all make mistakes.


Its how dogs communicate, my three 'resource guard' with eachother to a degree, if one of them has something and the other tries to take it depending on what it is they growl, its a dog saying oi this is mine. Its not a case of teaching them that behaviour is wrong, its a case of teaching them its not neccesary,they don't need to guard a b & c from us as we aren't going to steal it.
Its quite interesting watching dogs interact with other dogs how they communicate with eachother, Lexi is protective of random rubbish she picks up on walks, Bos doesn't like to be touched when hes sleeping Nala is too young to have quirks but they all let eachother know how they are feeling with growls yips etc
Its like Nala met a dog today a terrier really barky and mouthy and growly and the owners were mortified but the dog was playing it was just vocal.
Then there was another dog and Nala (wrongly) went to take its toy, it growled the owner told it off, and I told them not to, Nala deserved the growl she can't assume everything is hers, she listened to the warning growl and the play continued.
So many people hear growls and panic, they assume aggression, violence and fights but its how a dog communicates with other dogs and how they try to communicate with us, its us that let them down by not listening.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Horrific

That poor dog.

I think some of his ideas are good but would never do them in an intimidating way, nor want Heidi to do anything that made her uncomfortable. We are a team and work together. 

If I dont get the results I want, I find another way of doing it. Re enforcing something that hasn't worked is like shouting the same words when someone doesnt understand. Change the words/explain so they do.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I once saw some self confessed expert address this same problem with a Dog much larger than a Lab. 

He received a broken wrist and lost two fingers for his troubles. 

Folks get what they deserve because their arrogance almost always makes them complacent.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I hate to think that this man could treat rescue dogs this way who will of course defend their food as most never knew if they would be fed again.

It is plain to see he is no dog lover and provocked that poor dog while he was just eating. The reaction was extreme however so was his actions before that. You address what issues are there you dont create situations so you can be the alpha dog!!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Christ, I watched 5seconds of that video and had to turn it off. I can feel my face burning up in anger. People will follow him blindly because hes on TV so he MUST be right.

Poor distressed dog.

Give me Sarah Whitehead and Dr Ian Dunbar anyday.
PROFESSIONALS who know and understand dogs.

Im fuming from those few seconds. Not gonna return to this thread as CM ones always pee me off no end.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

dandogman said:


> It just seems to be getting more common and people seem to be accepting it, that is all, just stating something I have noticed.
> I have said this isn't really an effective way to deal with this type of dog, but that doesn't make me respect him less - we all make mistakes.


Im sorry but......anyone calling themselves a dog trainer should not be making a 'mistake' like this.
This wasn't a bite that was hard to predict; anyone with one iota of knowledge on dogs could have predicted that were a likely outcome. 
I've shown this vid to a couple of people who don't even have dogs, or have ever studied dog behaviour, and they knew instantly what that dog was trying to say.
You telling me a rich, tv star dog trainer with his own series _couldn't_ tell?

If he couldn't, he has no business being on TV showcasing his ignorance for all the other numpties to follow.
What more does a dog need to do to communicate that she's not happy with him there? She did all she could to warn him, she didn't leap straight to a bite. But because he ignored or didn't recognise her communications, he got what he deserved.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I think some of the big mistakes he made is 1: he did not read her body language correctly, where he saw calm submissive, i saw fearful and nervous. 2: he took his eyes off a dog that he did not know and put his hand over her head to stroke her, stupid stupid man

ETA: 3rd mistake was the fact that he was born


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

The bite came after he'd punched her in the face - I don't even think it was a resource guarding issue at that point (she'd air-snapped when he took her bowl butshe'd backed roght pff her bowl by the time she actually went to bite him) I think she was expecting another punch and went for the hand that had hit her.

He's a moron.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

Werehorse said:


> The bite came after he'd punched her in the face - I don't even think it was a resource guarding issue at that point (she'd air-snapped when he took her bowl butshe'd backed roght pff her bowl by the time she actually went to bite him) I think she was expecting another punch and went for the hand that had hit her.
> 
> He's a moron.


I was going to say that - she looks terrified of him and he'd already hit her once. I think she showed amazing bloody restraint tbh - I hate being associated with this show.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

what a depressing clip! Id like to say CM deserved that bite but poor Holly didnt deserve being forced to do the biting!
She didnt look like a really bad case from that clip, more like the kind of dog who would have responded well to positive methods. All he did was teach her that the only way to make herself heard was to bite.
I cant imagine having that problem with any of mine TBH. In fact I often have to take Adam's raw food away as he needs me to cut it up smaller for him!! (alot of the time he just comes and eats it next to me anyways!).


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> The bite came after he'd punched her in the face - I don't even think it was a resource guarding issue at that point (she'd air-snapped when he took her bowl butshe'd backed roght pff her bowl by the time she actually went to bite him) I think she was expecting another punch and went for the hand that had hit her.
> 
> He's a moron.


Think you're right, when coop is guarding if i do manage to get hold of whatever it is he's guarding by distracting him, the second its in my hand the "showdown" is over, he completely changes. This dog looks like he's forgot about the food, its ceaser he wants!! :incazzato:

probably because some idiots puffed his chest out nicked his dinner and slapt him around the face


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2012)

Zaros said:


> I once saw some self confessed expert address this same problem with a Dog much larger than a Lab.
> 
> He received a broken wrist and lost two fingers for his troubles.
> 
> Folks get what they deserve because their arrogance almost always makes them complacent.


Ive noticed how he doesnt deal with more confident dogs who dont suffer fools. I know a few CAS that would have taken his arm off if he tried a stunt like that.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Ive noticed how he doesnt deal with more confident dogs who dont suffer fools. I know a few CAS that would have taken his arm off if he tried a stunt like that.


I just dont understand why people allow him to abuse their dogs in such a way. I dont think its down to ignorance either, because even when i was naive and ignorant if anybody were to lay a hand on any of my animals they would lose it, fingers first


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Oh, I hate this man  and, funnily enough, I was ranting about him in the park earlier tonight  

His 'techniques' are dangerous... I feel so sorry for those poor dogs whose owners blindly follow these techniques. 

Arrow had issues around food for a few weeks after he came home... He was funny about people even being in the same room! So, I just got him used to people being in the room while he is eating, we wouldn't look at him or pay any attention to him. Then we gradually closed the gap and acted like we were just doing things around the room, tidying up etc. Then, when he could be within reach, I would add food to his dish. I would also feed him by hand, and it helped that I feed raw because a lot of the food I feed, I give to them by hand anyway... so he was getting his food directly from me, rather than a dish. He is brilliant now, and I could do anything with him while he is eating. He even likes to eat while he is touching me (his choice) and even puts bones, chews etc on my feet while he eats/chomps/chews them... I am not sure if that is a good or a bad thing though   Its good he is that relaxed... but not so good that most of them are a bit smelly, and not too pleasant... I don't generally like to smell like a tripe stick   

Does anyone know the outcome for poor Holly?


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

For everyone saying "I hope Holly wasn't put to sleep" etc.

Holly was worked on for a few weeks, during which her behaviour did improve a little. However Cesar deemed her to still be a risk given the fact a toddler lives in the house.

So he talked the family into handing the dog over to him. Holly now lives with CM and his pack of "unruly dogs", in the Dog Psychology Center.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

I posted this on the other thread. But the midnight (2 mins early) lesson of the day is;

Never put your hands close to a dogs mouth if trying to get it to release it's grip.

Dog Whisperer Got Bitten (Spanish) - YouTube


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Well this guy is just a pure abusing nob really 
Cesar kicking dogs (Abuse).mp4 - YouTube


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Dogless said:


> I don't think people do; it's just the method of stopping the behaviour - intimidation or teaching the dog that they have nothing to fear from people approaching their resources using kinder methods.


And it's not just about using kinder methods - it is about using EFFECTIVE methods.

I can't believe this video or that anyone with an ounce of intelligence thinks that anything beneficial can come from these bullying / stand off techniques. His pose while he was kneelilng would be laughable if he wasn't risking not just this dog, but all the gullible owners of food aggressive dogs to hightened aggression or pts


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Sophie has bad resource guarding towards the cats, but we are using postive and strict rules to combat this like

Sophie gets her food in the bowl in the kitchen, no timbits from the table or in the house.

Cats are now fed in the basement. 

As soon as her food is done its taken away

Toys are kept in the box and only taken out during play time

If she does charge at the cats over an item its removed and she doesnt get it back until later.


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## Zayna (Apr 19, 2009)

God I think any dog would bite if you smacked it round the head while it was trying to eat.. what an eejit!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> May I ask how it is that you have seen that video before when the episode only aired for the first time yesterday?


Perhaps because there are so many exactly like it, that we all get mixed up. As I said in the other thread, how anyone can just watch this idiot abuse their dog and do nothing, tells me that they don't deserve a dog in the first place.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Ive noticed how he doesnt deal with more confident dogs who dont suffer fools. I know a few CAS that would have taken his arm off if he tried a stunt like that.


Indeed. In fact the Dog re my original post was a Sar'

It was all over within a second. Bar the obligatory shouting and screaming of course.

This Dog had some serious resource guarding problems. Family members couldn't even walk by him whilst he was eating.

However, sometime later after the incident the same Dog was given his food bowl empty. After the Dog's attention was captured a few high currency treats were then placed inside it.

The Dog quickly ate what he was given and, naturally, he looked for more.

A few more were then given and again the Dog looked for more after he had eaten them. 
This process was repeated several times over, all the while the feeder being present by him

We then progressed onto the Dog eating directly from the hand. The prize had to be worked out of tightly clasped fingers. Again this was repeated a number of times.
Once the Dog was comfortable with the feeder and had got the simple message that his feeder was the provider only, a few more treats were placed in his bowl and offered to the Dog and whilst the Dog was allowed to eat the feeder supported the bowl on the palm of his outstretched hands.

Once again the process was repeated.

Several different methods were applied to the problem and when the Dog was fully confident the bowl was placed somewhere entirely different to his usual feeding place, filled with a few treats and whilst the Dog ate, the feeder stood by his flanks scruffing his bum.

Total time elapsed 45 minutes (approx)

No snarls, no threats no bites, no kicks, no punches, no problem.


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## Lola71 (Feb 23, 2011)

tashax said:


> Well this guy is just a pure abusing nob really
> Cesar kicking dogs (Abuse).mp4 - YouTube


Who in their right mind would think that the best way to redirect a dogs attention is to kick it in the side? I just imagine the response i would get from my trainer on a sunday morning if i tried that little trick!! :nono:


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

I like the Old Cesar. The problem In this video is not th growling as it is a video about how to solve food aggression after all. The problem with the video is how. If this was not Cesar and he showed this video to the old Cesar .Cesar would till him that you should never go face to face with a dog as that makes the dog uncomfortable .it is threatening 


He is going against his own advice . With this bad result he is lucky it was his band and not the face.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

tashax said:


> I just dont understand why people allow him to abuse their dogs in such a way. I dont think its down to ignorance either, because even when i was naive and ignorant if anybody were to lay a hand on any of my animals they would lose it, fingers first


I think it's more the culture of dog ownership, 30 years ago many of us probably wouldn't have flinched at this kind of treatment, I mean how many of us youngens (20ish) have parents who think pinning a dog to the ground is a good way to stop it jumping up? Plus in America there is still a culture of prong, shock and choke collars as well as 'invisible' fences and anti-bark collars, and very rarely do people bat an eyelid, if they don't think badly of that why would they care about a kick?


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

I just noticed my post....damn you autocorrect lol


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I really wish the man could be removed from our screens his approach is dangerous. It's more likely to escalate issues than solve them. I watch these clips in horror and find myself wondering how many dogs have been PTS by people who have followed the methods of this high profile charlatan.

Changing behaviours isn't done with a quick fix. Quick fixes are like painting over rust.... it will bubble back to the surface.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

moonviolet said:


> I really wish the man could be removed from our screens his approach is dangerous. It's more likely to escalate issues than solve them. I watch these clips in horror and find myself wondering how many dogs have been PTS by people who have followed the methods of this high profile charlatan.
> 
> Changing behaviours isn't done with a quick fix. Quick fixes are like painting over rust.... it will bubble back to the surface.


Cesar is a God to many in Finland. I'm very disappointed with Zara's breeder for fostering some of his strategies which he once attempted to apply to 
Zara.

There was a momentary gnashing of teeth and we did have a falling out but he finally got the message that anyone who physically assaults a Dog of mine will also receive a short sharp kick up their smug 4R53 in order that they too quickly learn the error of their ways.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

I've never seen anything by CM, and judging by these replies I'm not going to start now.

I did read one of his books a few months ago to see what all the fuss was about- and talk about being up ones own arse.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

just proves what i think of the dog abuser, a total tw*t :yesnod: 

wonder what happend to holly after she bit him


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sianrees1979 said:


> just proves what i think of the dog abuser, a total tw*t :yesnod:
> 
> wonder what happend to holly after she bit him


I hear he convinced the dopy owner that she would never be safe around children and took her away to his psychology centre, which I have also heard is no such thing. In fact it is a boarding kennels and most of the dogs are not his but just being boarded.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Cesar&#39;s Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube
Follow up :incazzato:


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

tashax said:


> Well this guy is just a pure abusing nob really
> Cesar kicking dogs (Abuse).mp4 - YouTube


this man is clearly unstable, who on earth would kick a dog to make it sit?!


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

SpringerHusky said:


> Cesar's Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube
> Follow up :incazzato:


 Poor Junior!! what a scared dog he has become. I'm not sure i can watch any more.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> I think it's more the culture of dog ownership, 30 years ago many of us probably wouldn't have flinched at this kind of treatment, I mean how many of us youngens (20ish) have parents who think pinning a dog to the ground is a good way to stop it jumping up? Plus in America there is still a culture of prong, shock and choke collars as well as 'invisible' fences and anti-bark collars, and very rarely do people bat an eyelid, if they don't think badly of that why would they care about a kick?


This is very true. But also a lot of people are very hard on dogs still. There are plenty of dog training classes that still advocate hard treatment. I have 2 dog owning friends who are very into dogs and they adore their dogs and their dogs adore them and are all very well trained but both will come down hard and pin a dog that misbehaves. One is in her 20s and one in her 60s.

I see nothing wrong with a 'quick fix' in that the dog has boundaries clearly set and is firmly corrected if it does something wrong. If a dog of mine growled at me I would be on it like a ton of bricks and it would not do it again - unless of course it was for a totally unknown reason in which case I would check it over for pain first.

That does not mean to say I would ever approve of out and out violence. There is not point in hitting and kicking a dog - what does it achieve and as for prong collars for training - why would you want to! But I would far rather correct a dog firmly with correct timing than let it learn over weeks or months that it is easier to do the right thing. I could not learn like that, my child could not learn like that (which is why there are so many badly trained children) so why can my dog learn like that.

I see nothing wrong with SOME of Cesar's methods but to me he is not applying them in the right way to the right dog at the right time. What I do object to is the way the dogs are so shut down so I think he has done something I would not approve of in any way when the cameras are not looking!



emmaviolet said:


> this man is clearly unstable, who on earth would kick a dog to make it sit?!


I am not sure what you are referring to here but if it is a foot coming down on a dog's backside to speed up a sit then it is not a kick. When I was doing obedience most handlers would use this method rather than bending down and pushing the dog into the sit.

On the whole I think I prefer the way I have always trained dogs- but then I always assessed each dog and used a method that suited that dog when I was training. I am not one for taking several months to cure a problem that could be done in two minutes. And I think most dogs would rather be shown once, very clearly, what is wanted rather than the modern way with animals and children of letting them work it out for themselves and often never quite getting it - hence so many badly behaved dogs and children around.

Whether you like his methods or not though he has brought dog training to the fore in a lot of peoples minds just as Barbara Woodhouse did with her ridiculous training methods in the 60s. She must have been the first TV dog trainer and no dog people liked what she did but the ordinary dog owner thought she was wonderful.

I think some of the modern methods are great for some people and have largely come about because a lot of dog owners do not read their dog right, have no sense of timing and are not capable of using the 'corrective' forms of training in a way that will help the dog. A lot of dogs were and are 'abused' by using the older methods (or Cesar's) in the wrong way.

I think it sad that Cesar falls into the category of getting it wrong too!


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> This is very true. But also a lot of people are very hard on dogs still. There are plenty of dog training classes that still advocate hard treatment. I have 2 dog owning friends who are very into dogs and they adore their dogs and their dogs adore them and are all very well trained but both will come down hard and pin a dog that misbehaves. One is in her 20s and one in her 60s.
> 
> I see nothing wrong with a 'quick fix' in that the dog has boundaries clearly set and is firmly corrected if it does something wrong. If a dog of mine growled at me I would be on it like a ton of bricks and it would not do it again - unless of course it was for a totally unknown reason in which case I would check it over for pain first.
> 
> ...


It's a short kick to the groin to get it to sit...to divert attention off another dog...or a kick to the groin just because you need to keep that pack leader position.  :mad2:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Attack Mode said:


> It's a short kick to the groin to get it to sit...to divert attention off another dog...or a kick to the groin just because you need to keep that pack leader position.  :mad2:


Why would kicking it in the groin get it to sit? I have seen him tap a dog on its backside with his foot as I have seen many others do and done myself.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm lucky. I can take Double Troubles' water bowls away from them any time I wish - they just back off because they know that chances are, I'm taking it off them to refill it. I mention their water bowls because I've never tried to take their food bowls off them - can't see the point. 

I used to idolise Ceasar - not so much now, but I can't sit here and read all the comments cheering the dog on. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it and/or didn't get it wrong, but seriously, saying things like "WTG Holly" or "Holly, you go girl" - for biting a HUMAN? An adult's hand could very easily be a child's face next and the owner brought Ceasar in because there's going to be a _child _in the family at some point - probably already is. A child who might just take the dog's food and/or expect to be able to pet it anywhere it likes, because the child CANNOT read the dog's body language at all? Watch the clip from 2mins in - Ceasar says:


> That aggression cannot be allowed around babies


Seriously no one should EVER support a dog bite - regardless of whether the human had it coming/deserved it or whatever.

*Gets off soapbox*.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I think people "support" the dog bite because the dog was so clearly provoked.

It is almost irrelevant to say "it could have been a childs face" because what pushed the dog over bite threshold was a hand coming towards her face that had just a few seconds previously smacked her one in the face. Assuming the dog didn't get any bad experience from a child then it is unlikely that a child's face approaching would push it over bite threshold...

Unfortunately what Milan has done by confronting the dog like this and pushing it to use it's bite is make it *more* likely to bite in future situations which it finds stressful - as it has now walked that behaviour path one more time (if you carry out a behaviour it makes that neurological pathway stronger and more likely to be followed in future). So if this dog *does* have a history of bad experiences with children OR it has new bad experiences with children in the future then it is slightly more likely to bite than a dog that has never practised a defensive bite.

I don't anyone actually thinks dogs biting people as a general rule is a good thing but a lot of people have very strong feelings that Milan is constantly "asking for" a biting because his methods are confrontational, aggressive and despite what he says he cannot read dog body language at all... hence the "cheering on". But on reflection the bite is probably a worse outcome for the dog than it is for him even though the scumbag practically MADE the poor thing bite him.  Remember that from a dog's perspective growling, showing teeth and biting is a form of communication - an extreme form but I get pretty irate when people don't listen to me when I'm making a reasonable point clearly as well.

I would never punish a dog for growling I would tell myself off for not seeing/listening to it's more subtle previous communications and putting the dog in a situation where it felt it had to shout at me! After all I'd rather it gave a warning then went straight to bite.


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## kateh8888 (Aug 9, 2011)

Haven't seen this one before. I'm surprised it hasn't happened sooner to be honest. The dog gave plenty of warnings.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Indeed. In fact the Dog re my original post was a Sar'
> 
> It was all over within a second. Bar the obligatory shouting and screaming of course.
> 
> ...


Well pfft.... That doesnt make for very good TV! 

We had to hand feed a rescue wearing stout leather gloves for a while. It was worth it, he got a lot better with boring old consistency, compassion, and common sense.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> I think people "support" the dog bite because the dog was so clearly provoked.
> 
> It is almost irrelevant to say "it could have been a childs face" because what pushed the dog over bite threshold was a hand coming towards her face that had just a few seconds previously smacked her one in the face. Assuming the dog didn't get any bad experience from a child then it is unlikely that a child's face approaching would push it over bite threshold...
> 
> ...


Fantastic post rep'd!

I punched some one very hard in the face. I split their lip and made them bleed quite profusely. Does this make me a violent person?

Should I mention that they were trying to do an efficient combo of mugging and sexually assaulting me?

I shouted, they didn't stop. So I escalated.... they stopped.

If you ignore or punish signals from dogs cats or even people. Don't be shocked if they escalate their behaviour to get their message across.


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## MiniSchnauzers (Sep 11, 2012)

Do they not have any sort of animal cruilty laws in that state ?

I have to say I have not taken much notice of that man in the past, I have watched the odd show when 'flicking through' tv channels during advert breaks but thats about it. Can't say I really took notice of his methods or gave them much thought UNTIL NOW :yikes:

I have never had a dog respond aggressively and I have had dogs all my life (55 next year) but I do believe the dog needs to know who is the master or leader. Be that to stop pulling on the lead, to come when called or to respond passively to something it does not like, such as having its food taken away. That said, I have NEVER resorted to violence to master my dogs, I have loved them, treated them well and invested a great deal of time in working with them.

I don't demonise this man any more than I would hale his methods as the best, I do however now see him in a completely different light. Hi is little more than a showman who will do anything to improve his ratings, otherwise why allow this video to be aired?

Our 2 new puppies (Ben & Jerry) will learn by us rewarding their good behavior and by us letting them know we are their to love them, care for them, feed them and treat them well. They will never suffer physical violence such as that handed out by CM in this shocking video:thumbdown:


Mark.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> Fantastic post rep'd!
> 
> I punched some one very hard in the face. I split their lip and made them bleed quite profusely. Does this make me a violent person?
> 
> ...


Agreed. I have fired a weapon when needed - I have never shot at anyone unprovoked . It's all about context and force commensurate with the threat!!


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2012)

Insightful, thoughtful post on the incident. Worth a read:
Pushed Too Far « Wilde About Dogs


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

classixuk said:


> For those who have waited a lifetime to see this - and for those who think they are safe using Cesar's techniques - here's what happens when you try to "dominate" your dog:
> 
> Dog Whisperer: Showdown with Holly - YouTube!
> 
> Thoughts?


I stopped watching about half way through...the only aggression was coming from CM in my opinion, the dog was displaying a perfectly natural reaction to how he was bullying her.

I don't think food aggression is acceptable, for the record - Shorty had quite a resource guarding problem and has to be carefully managed. But we can now take his bowl from him with no fuss if necessary, and we got to that point with patience and by setting him up to succeed and learn he can trust us. Punches and kicks don't teach trust.
What an *sshole that man is


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> I'm lucky. I can take Double Troubles' water bowls away from them any time I wish - they just back off because they know that chances are, I'm taking it off them to refill it. I mention their water bowls because I've never tried to take their food bowls off them - can't see the point.
> 
> I used to idolise Ceasar - not so much now, but I can't sit here and read all the comments cheering the dog on. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it and/or didn't get it wrong, but seriously, saying things like "WTG Holly" or "Holly, you go girl" - for biting a HUMAN? An adult's hand could very easily be a child's face next and the owner brought Ceasar in because there's going to be a _child _in the family at some point - probably already is. A child who might just take the dog's food and/or expect to be able to pet it anywhere it likes, because the child CANNOT read the dog's body language at all? Watch the clip from 2mins in - Ceasar says:
> 
> ...


Sorry, but what you are saying to me means that Holly is only a dog and as such must put up with everything an almighty human wants to do. She was telling him to back off; she was perfectly happy till he threatened her and it was his actions which made her aggressive.

As to a child wanting to get near her when she is eating, fuss her anytime, etc, the child should be taught otherwise like mine were. Is this what we do then? Get some bully boy in to terrorise the dog so that the bloody brat can treat it without respect and it won't retaliate? I don't think so.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Sorry, but what you are saying to me means that Holly is only a dog and as such must put up with everything an almighty human wants to do. She was telling him to back off; she was perfectly happy till he threatened her and it was his actions which made her aggressive.
> 
> As to a child wanting to get near her when she is eating, fuss her anytime, etc, the child should be taught otherwise like mine were. Is this what we do then? Get some bully boy in to terrorise the dog so that the bloody brat can treat it without respect and it won't retaliate? I don't think so.


This is very true!

I was raised with 2 dogs from my first day and even though they were very gentle and i may have pushed my luck with them and received no telling off, i was always old how to treat the dogs properly and told if i was to take their food or toys away then it would be my fault and it was a no no!!

My dogs were always very patient and stood for more then this dog, but i really don't see the need to feed the dog when the child is in the room, i mean even if it eats 4 times a day, how long is that in time, maybe at most 30 minutes, just take him outside or in the kitchen and separate the child and dog!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

What i dont understand in all of this is the need to be able to take away food that you have given to your dog to eat.?????

Ok potentially a kid could put its hand in the dog bowl etc etc - so feed the dog behind a shut door. 

If someone walked over to me whilst I was eating and tried to remove my food they would not get a positive reaction either.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

The man looks as if he is trying to get a part as Rambo,if I did that with our aggressive dogs at rescue I would be out,he stared at the dog and even when it looked away he then stood over it staring something that I have always been told not to do,the poor dog not only had him but the owner standing there with his arms crossed and a load of camera crew etc what the hell did he expect :incazzato:


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## nikkix5 (Feb 24, 2010)

I hate this man & his bully tactics he deserved what he got.
My stupid brother in law swears by him & keeps preaching onto me about him & what i should & shouldn't do with my own dogs  The thing is my brother in law never keeps a dog long enough before he gets sick & gets rid, it so boils my pi$$ sorry rant over!


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I can take anything away from Holly, even a half eaten meal. She was taught from the start, by kindness and reward, that was what I wanted. She does not worry when I take things from her especially as she is on a renal diet. She knows something else will appear before her.

To my mind getting bitten could not have happened to a better person


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I hate to think what happened to the poor dog once the cameras went home


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Why would kicking it in the groin get it to sit? I have seen him tap a dog on its backside with his foot as I have seen many others do and done myself.


Watch the video that the comments about kicking are aimed at.






You will see it's done a manner so the dog doesn't know who is doing it, and it is also done to dogs who are in a sit (as well as stood up).

It's a short kick to the groin area, more to get the dog to focus off a distraction etc than to get them into a sit.

You will see one dog gets annoyed and lunges up at him during the video.

ETA: There is also one scene that cuts away, that implies he goes to kick the dog in the face or chest.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> If a dog of mine growled at me I would be on it like a ton of bricks and it would not do it again - unless of course it was for a totally unknown reason in which case I would check it over for pain first.


But....isn't a growl a 'warning' from a dog? Its their way of saying 'please back off, I don't want this to have to go any further'. Dogs that growl are showing some restraint; they're not leaping straight to a bite, they're giving you fair warning in the only way they can.
And you say you'd come down like a 'ton of bricks'. What does that mean, exactly? What would you do specifically? I've heard this same 'ton of bricks' phrase used by some other dog people before, but none have ever explained exactly what action they would take. They just say 'I wouldn't be violent'....well......the phrase 'coming down like a ton of bricks' generally does mean a very forceful and serious reaction.

And if you were in a situation and you felt uncomfortable with another person, and you warned them 'hey buddy, could you back off and give me some space please?' and they came down on YOU like a 'ton of bricks', would that help you feel better about the situation? Would you respect them for their reaction? I certainly wouldn't.
It would just make me less likely to bother giving a warning next time.........


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Attack Mode said:


> Watch the video that the comments about kicking are aimed at.
> 
> Cesar kicking dogs (Abuse).mp4 - YouTube
> 
> ...


I can't watch more than one minute of that, what a twonk! Is the politest way of putting it I can think of


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I love the dog world- I posted about this on another forum, and the response over there is pretty much "dog should not react like that full stop, and is probably the outcome of shocking breeding- she is a ticking time bomb" Amazing how veiws differ so drastically between dog owners.


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

That poor dog was intimidated to the limit and her only way out of that situation was to bite back:angry:

I once had a golden who you did not touch when feeding or she would of bitten......she was put in a seperate room and aloud to eat her dinner in peace and I cannot see thats an issue unless you make it one

I did quite like Cesar untill I watched that


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> But....isn't a growl a 'warning' from a dog? Its their way of saying 'please back off, I don't want this to have to go any further'. Dogs that growl are showing some restraint; they're not leaping straight to a bite, they're giving you fair warning in the only way they can.
> And you say you'd come down like a 'ton of bricks'. What does that mean, exactly? What would you do specifically? I've heard this same 'ton of bricks' phrase used by some other dog people before, but none have ever explained exactly what action they would take. They just say 'I wouldn't be violent'....well......the phrase 'coming down like a ton of bricks' generally does mean a very forceful and serious reaction.
> 
> And if you were in a situation and you felt uncomfortable with another person, and you warned them 'hey buddy, could you back off and give me some space please?' and they came down on YOU like a 'ton of bricks', would that help you feel better about the situation? Would you respect them for their reaction? I certainly wouldn't.
> It would just make me less likely to bother giving a warning next time.........


I've explained this to my OH countless times! Growling is GOOD in a way, it lets you know when your dog is unhappy. At first my OH tried telling her off for growling, until I explained to him that next time she's pissed off she might not tell him and just bite one of his kids 'with no warning'.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

A couple of years ago, when my niece was much younger, she started pestering Indie round at my Mum's. Indie was lying next to the chair I was sat in, and I told my niece to leave her alone as she was resting now, she was trying to have a sleep. But my niece kept trying to pester her, Indie was very good about it, but when my niece, after being told umpteen times to leave her alone, poked her in the eyes to wake her up, Indie let out a *humpf*, not even a growl, and moved to another spot. My niece quite literally pooped herself in fright, my daft mother thought Indie had gone for her, until I told her what had actually happened. For anyone who knows Indie she's the biggest softest lump of a dog with absolutely no issues except for one, she is in charge of everything. Press any dog too far and they will react, and depending on the dog you will get a different reaction. All my niece got was mucky underwear, and she hopefully learnt a valuable lesson! 

I have on the odd occasion when my brothers' children have been messing about and not doing as they're told, got my grumbly voice out, its just as effective on unruly children as dogs


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

I love this video! It is brilliant to see a dog get their own back! If he ever hit my dog like that he'd be eating his food through a straw! I hate this idiot! He knows nothing and physically abuses animals! He needs to be stopped!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> I love the dog world- I posted about this on another forum, and the response over there is pretty much "dog should not react like that full stop, and is probably the outcome of shocking breeding- she is a ticking time bomb" Amazing how veiws differ so drastically between dog owners.


This morning we met a man with a couple of salukis, recently rescued and both on leads. He said he was trying to socialise them as one of them did not like other dogs. Diva went very close and sniffed his nose, he curled his lip and growled at her and she backed off. She didn't run or even turn away, just moved backwards to give him more space and they were quite happy like that.

This labrador was trying to get him to back off the same way; that is how dogs will talk and Diva understood it. Anyone with half a brain cell could see that all they needed was to back off.

I don't see where that dog really had much of a problem at all until the Dog Abuser came along.

I wonder if he ever reads any of his own critics. All the thousands of people who really know dogs and could tell him what the dog is saying, and he carries on being the same pratt and getting it all wrong. If he weren't so arrogant he would be too embarrassed to show his face.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Sorry, but what you are saying to me means that Holly is only a dog and as such must put up with everything an almighty human wants to do. She was telling him to back off; she was perfectly happy till he threatened her and it was his actions which made her aggressive.
> 
> As to a child wanting to get near her when she is eating, fuss her anytime, etc, the child should be taught otherwise like mine were. Is this what we do then? Get some bully boy in to terrorise the dog so that the bloody brat can treat it without respect and it won't retaliate? I don't think so.


Erm, NO, please point out exactly where I said anything that might even make you think that?! I never ever suggested that Holly was "Just a dog" and take offence to you assuming that. Nor did I EVER stick up for what CM did. However, if a dog learns to be fear aggressive and a BABY frightens her, what's to stop her from attacking the child?!

A baby can be taught not to get into the dog's face, but whilst it IS still a baby it doesn't know any better it's going to do so. It has nothing to do with the dog just being a dog - fact is she could easily hurt a child.

Now I really am annoyed, so I'm just going to leave this thread and cool off a bit.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> Erm, NO, please point out exactly where I said anything that might even make you think that?! I never ever suggested that Holly was "Just a dog" and take offence to you assuming that. Nor did I EVER stick up for what CM did. However, if a dog learns to be fear aggressive and a BABY frightens her, what's to stop her from attacking the child?!
> 
> A baby can be taught not to get into the dog's face, but whilst it IS still a baby it doesn't know any better it's going to do so. It has nothing to do with the dog just being a dog - fact is she could easily hurt a child.
> 
> Now I really am annoyed, so I'm just going to leave this thread and cool off a bit.


Well please don't be annoyed, because that is definitely not what I meant and not what I assumed you had meant either. Basically, the dog was not aggressive until he came along, and I feel that his attitude is that it is just a dog and not as important as humans. I certainly never thought that you felt that way, so please accept my apology.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

I think the work he has done to save dogs from death row is fabulous and yes he does get bitten from time to time as he is very brave to challenge aggressive dogs. I never know why this man gets slated so much?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> I think the work he has done to save dogs from death row is fabulous and yes he does get bitten from time to time as he is very brave to challenge aggressive dogs. I never know why this man gets slated so much?


:lol:

Did you see the video? Is that bravery to you?


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

fluffybunny2001 said:


> seriously?
> absolutley flabbergasted that anyone thinks that what he does is good!!
> That dog gave him plenty of warnings,which he completley ignored,
> Nothing he does is good,end of


So saving dogs from death row is not a good thing then? Some of his methods may seem harsh for some but a lot of aggressive dogs would be dead by now if it wasn't for him. It isn't always going to work though as this video clearly states some dogs just will not back down. It also proves that aggression is not breed specific which is another thing Cesar says.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

rotties4eva said:


> I think the work he has done to save dogs from death row is fabulous and yes he does get bitten from time to time as he is very brave to challenge aggressive dogs. I never know why this man gets slated so much?


Watch his performances with the sound off. Watch the body language of the dogs. 
If that doesn`t convince you he`s a bully, nothing will.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

rotties4eva said:


> I think the work he has done to save dogs from death row is fabulous and yes he does get bitten from time to time as he is very brave to challenge aggressive dogs. I never know why this man gets slated so much?


*I'm with you on that...
Much easier for some to have problem dogs pts.*


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Watch his performances with the sound off. Watch the body language of the dogs.
> If that doesn`t convince you he`s a bully, nothing will.


I have been a fan since 2006 and I have never seen him as a bully... only trying to help dogs be calm submissive which in this case it does not work but it can't always.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'm with you on that...
> Much easier for some to have problem dogs pts.*


He has taken on dogs that others wont and he has saved a lot of dogs now that must be a good thing. His methods do seem harsh to others but have saved dogs.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> :lol:
> 
> Did you see the video? Is that bravery to you?


Yes I seen that video he did not hurt the dog it hurt him. He is too brave sometimes IMO


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> So saving dogs from death row is not a good thing then? Some of his methods may seem harsh for some but a lot of aggressive dogs would be dead by now if it wasn't for him. It isn't always going to work though as this video clearly states some dogs just will not back down. It also proves that aggression is not breed specific which is another thing Cesar says.


*He* puts them into a position where they show agression, *he* pushes them beyond threshold. Then tells them to hide the symptom....( growl snap bite) Other wiser people would address the cause.... the fear of losing the food.

He doesn't even have the ability to read basic canine body language yet proports to be some kind of expert.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

You have been taken in by the marketing then.

There are much better ways to save dogs from "death row" than bullying them into developing a bite history.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

rotties4eva said:


> I think the work he has done to save dogs from death row is fabulous and yes he does get bitten from time to time as he is very brave to challenge aggressive dogs. I never know why this man gets slated so much?


I keep hearing about all these dogs he has saved from death, but I have yet to see a specific case. He does no more than anyone else, mostly people who do not have his resources but still manage to save dogs. He might be brave if the dogs were aggressive, but mostly they are no such thing until he comes along and starts tormenting them.



rotties4eva said:


> So saving dogs from death row is not a good thing then? Some of his methods may seem harsh for some but a lot of aggressive dogs would be dead by now if it wasn't for him. It isn't always going to work though as this video clearly states some dogs just will not back down. It also proves that aggression is not breed specific which is another thing Cesar says.


The dog would have had nothing to back down from if he had just left her to eat in peace.



rotties4eva said:


> I have been a fan since 2006 and I have never seen him as a bully... only trying to help dogs be calm submissive which in this case it does not work but it can't always.


Calm submissive is a phrase made up by him, just like "red zone". What he calls calm submissive is in fact a dog that is shut down, too terrified to argue. If you want your dogs to be like that, then go ahead.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> *He* puts them into a position where they show agression, *he* pushes them beyond threshold. Then tells them to hide the symptom....( growl snap bite) Other wiser people would address the cause.... the fear of losing the food.
> 
> He doesn't even have the ability to read basic canine body language yet proports to be some kind of expert.


He was trying to stop the Lab being food aggressive which clearly did not work on this occasion. I do agree that dominance does not always work. I have seen episodes, however, where he has solved the food aggression problem with dominance and it has worked. With this particular dog he made the wrong move yes, but everyone makes mistakes including Cesar.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm not going to read the whole thread, but here's my two penneth - SOME of the techniques Cesar does are very good. I don't go around kicking my dog, but I have tried his technique of just touching her with my leg when she's barking rather than speaking to her - it pays dividends as it snaps her out of the behaviour rather than her thinking I'm joining in. I would not however use an e-collar or anything like that.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Werehorse said:


> You have been taken in by the marketing then.
> 
> There are much better ways to save dogs from "death row" than bullying them into developing a bite history.


No I haven't been taken in by the Marketing I simply have been watching his shows since 2006 and have seen him turn a lot of bad dogs around.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

rotties4eva said:


> He was trying to stop the Lab being food aggressive which clearly did not work on this occasion. I do agree that dominance does not always work. I have seen episodes, however, where he has solved the food aggression problem with dominance and it has worked. With this particular dog he made the wrong move yes, but everyone makes mistakes including Cesar.


You cannot cure anything with dominance. What you have seen is him terrifying a dog so much that he is shut down and too scared to do any more.


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

To my eye, he just went straight in and tried to take the food away from a food aggressive dog. . . . . . that isn't how you try to rectify the issue in the first instance!!! Then to go on and attack the dog for what its done all its life, is plain stupid  What did he expect, to get licked with a waggy tail?? 
The poor dog will not have a clue what is being asked of it and therefore reacts. 
I don't watch CM very often, but can see why why people are not the biggest fans of his.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I keep hearing about all these dogs he has saved from death, but I have yet to see a specific case. He does no more than anyone else, mostly people who do not have his resources but still manage to save dogs. He might be brave if the dogs were aggressive, but mostly they are no such thing until he comes along and starts tormenting them.
> 
> The dog would have had nothing to back down from if he had just left her to eat in peace.
> 
> Calm submissive is a phrase made up by him, just like "red zone". What he calls calm submissive is in fact a dog that is shut down, too terrified to argue. If you want your dogs to be like that, then go ahead.


I am not sure what you mean by if I want my dogs to be like that?? My dogs are not aggressive at all for the start??


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

His shows are the marketting. They will be cut and commentated to show his "methods" working. It's all just spin and nonsense.

When I want my dogs to stop barking I ask them to "sit" and "watch me" and reward them for doing so. I don't have to "nudge" or kick them to get their attention. It's just not necessary. None of it is. All dogs can be trained with positive reward based methods - there is real behavioural science behind it, not just made up marketeering carp.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Some of his methods work some don't. If people don't like him they don't have to watch his stuff and they are entitled to their opinion just like anyone else. And it doesn't mean that people who do like Cesar's methods are evil dog abusers. I think a lot of cesars followers are made to feel like this unfortunately


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> Some of his methods work some don't. If people don't like him they don't have to watch his stuff and they are entitled to their opinion just like anyone else. And it doesn't mean that people who do like Cesar's methods are evil dog abusers.


I don't think his supporters are evil. 
Misguided, maybe. Ignorant about dog behaviour, certainly. But not evil.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> Some of his methods work some don't. If people don't like him they don't have to watch his stuff and they are entitled to their opinion just like anyone else. And it doesn't mean that people who do like Cesar's methods are evil dog abusers.


If you use gentle non-confrontational methods. Pretty much the worst that can happen is the problem will not improve. fF like Mr Milan you use heavy handed, confrontational method and ignore the the body language of the dog the problem can escalate as it did in this case.

Not only do i disapprove of his methods i believe it is irresponsible for them to be shown, As despite, the show's disclaimer (for legal reasons) people do try them at home. I believe him and his methods have been responsible for many many dogs being PTS in all the countries his show is aired. Save dogs... I don't think so.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> If you use gentle non-confrontational methods. Pretty much the worst that can happen is the problem will not improve. fF like Mr Milan you use heavy handed, confrontational method and ignore the the body language of the dog the problem can escalate as it did in this case.
> 
> Not only do i disapprove of his methods i believe it is irresponsible for them to be shown, As despite, the show's disclaimer (for legal reasons) people do try them at home. I believe him and his methods have been responsible for many many dogs being PTS in all the countries his show is aired. Save dogs... I don't think so.


There are a lot of people out there calling themselves dog trainers because they have bought and watched every episode of the Dog Whisperer. That is their only qualification.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> If you use gentle non-confrontational methods. Pretty much the worst that can happen is the problem will not improve. fF like Mr Milan you use heavy handed, confrontational method and ignore the the body language of the dog the problem can escalate as it did in this case.
> 
> Not only do i disapprove of his methods i believe it is irresponsible for them to be shown, As despite, the show's disclaimer (for legal reasons) people do try them at home. I believe him and his methods have been responsible for many many dogs being PTS in all the countries his show is aired. Save dogs... I don't think so.


There are many different ways to approach aggression and this over dominant way was not the right way. Bet that bite hurt:shocked:


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> There are a lot of people out there calling themselves dog trainers because they have bought and watched every episode of the Dog Whisperer. That is their only qualification.


Surerly not?


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

One thing you can say is after watching this I bet a lot of people won't use this method on their food aggressive dogs


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> One thing you can say is after watching this I bet a lot of people won't use this method on their food aggressive dogs


You'd be surprised.......human stupidity knows no bounds. 
If people think there is only one way to fix a problem, and this is the way, they'll try it, even if they've witnessed it go wrong. 
In their head, they might think 'well, it won't go wrong for _me_!'

When I was a kid, young, I witnessed a lad in the playground try to show off by pratting about on the slide at the top. He ended up falling off, hurting himself. 
But I still remember thinking 'well, when _I_ do it, I'll be more careful than he was!' 

But....y'know.....I was a kid.....and stupid. But there are adults who also have this mindset.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

This could be so easily avoided. And so easily dealt with afterwards.

However CM goes with the easy way (for him) of dealing with the issue.He offers to take the dog off the hands of the owners in exchange for "a lower energy dog from his pack". What a fool. 

Dog Whisperer Pit Bull Fight.avi - YouTube


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rotties4eva said:


> One thing you can say is after watching this I bet a lot of people won't use this method on their food aggressive dogs


Unfortunately they will, just because it's shown what an idiot he is, doesn't mean you won't get people who won't follow him, and copy his methods.

Shortly before I got my first dog he suddenly shot to fame in the UK, and I thought he was an impressive dog trainer, getting good results. Now I know a lot more, and still count myself as a beginner, I just think he's a [email protected], and bullies dogs. My dogs try it on at times, do I alpha roll them to make them know I'm the boss, or take their food away just because I can, and I actually can do that, even with raw stuff. No, I leave them be and work with them to train the behaviour I want, if my dog didn't sit, I wouldn't kick it in the groin to make it sit, I'd give it an incentive to sit.

I do something called *kicking* during training sessions, where I kick the dog off me, however, what I do is very different to what I saw in the minute of the video I managed to watch. What I do is push the dog away with my leg, so I make contact, but it acts like two people messing about, I shove you, you come back at me to shove me, so I get the dog to come back in close to me, it's great for heel work. But I would never actually kick my dogs like he does in the videos, there's just no need.


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## feathered bird lover (May 23, 2011)

REALLY, he didn't see that coming, i saw what was gonna happen and in no way am i an animal behavourlist, dearie me. 

i used to watch him for a wee bitty 'eye candy', lol.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> Yes I seen that video he did not hurt the dog it hurt him. He is too brave sometimes IMO


Brave? More like stupid.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> Yes I seen that video he did not hurt the dog it hurt him. He is too brave sometimes IMO


Must be a troll. Nobody is that blind. :lol:


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


Nor me, but its something that should be done from puppyhood, I always taught my puppies from young, not to be aggressive with their food, and I always removed bones from their mouths, as even though I have no youngsters in my family, my friends have children in various age ranges, and I would be devastated if any child went near my dog and got bitten. Even rescue dogs are assessed to see if their food aggressive before they are put up for re-homing. I would not have done what Caesar did and that's approach an adult dog who is food aggressive, and not in that manner.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> No I haven't been taken in by the Marketing I simply have been watching his shows since 2006 and have seen him turn a lot of bad dogs around.


Have you? What are all these dogs like years after the program? Do you have a clue? Or do you just believe whatever you see on TV? :rolleyes5:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> If you use gentle non-confrontational methods. Pretty much the worst that can happen is the problem will not improve. fF like Mr Milan you use heavy handed, confrontational method and ignore the the body language of the dog the problem can escalate as it did in this case.
> 
> Not only do i disapprove of his methods i believe it is irresponsible for them to be shown, As despite, the show's disclaimer (for legal reasons) people do try them at home. I believe him and his methods have been responsible for many many dogs being PTS in all the countries his show is aired. Save dogs... I don't think so.


He's a bloody god in this community. Whatever problem your dog is having the advice is to go read CMs books, watch his shows and do what he does. I know of at least 5 people who've had to rehome their dogs after the problems got worse when they took that advice. Most of the dogs I see being walked around here aren't relaxed, happy dogs. Lots of lip licking going on, tense body language, lots of whale eye, ears pinned back etc. Yet that's what people see as a well behaved dog. I find that incredibly sad


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

mummyschnauzer said:


> Nor me, but its something that should be done from puppyhood, I always taught my puppies from young, not to be aggressive with their food, and I always removed bones from their mouths, as even though I have no youngsters in my family, my friends have children in various age ranges, and I would be devastated if any child went near my dog and got bitten. Even rescue dogs are assessed to see if their food aggressive before they are put up for re-homing. I would not have done what Caesar did and that's approach an adult dog who is food aggressive, and not in that manner.


Yeah I do that with my pups too it's the best way to make sure they aren't aggressive with their food when they grow up


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> He's a bloody god in this community. Whatever problem your dog is having the advice is to go read CMs books, watch his shows and do what he does. I know of at least 5 people who've had to rehome their dogs after the problems got worse when they took that advice. Most of the dogs I see being walked around here aren't relaxed, happy dogs. Lots of lip licking going on, tense body language, lots of whale eye, ears pinned back etc. Yet that's what people see as a well behaved dog. I find that incredibly sad


He's idolised here too - it does seem to be a community thing!!


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Must be a troll. Nobody is that blind. :lol:


I must admit after watching it a few times I am starting to see what you guys are getting at


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Have you? What are all these dogs like years after the program? Do you have a clue? Or do you just believe whatever you see on TV? :rolleyes5:


No I don't always believe what I see on TV. I have watched his Tv Show for many years but do realise that the bad bits are probably not shown as we can see from this video. No need to be nasty How do you know though that some of the dogs are not turned around??


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Dogless said:


> He's idolised here too - it does seem to be a community thing!!


He seems to have as many followers as haters


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rotties4eva said:


> He seems to have as many followers as haters


More followers here than haters, I'm not one of them though!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> No I don't always believe what I see on TV. I have watched his Tv Show for many years but do realise that the bad bits are probably not shown as we can see from this video. No need to be nasty How do you know though that some of the dogs are not turned around??


I never claimed the dog weren't turned around, it was you who said they were, but you don't know, do you? Serious dog issues have to be worked on continuously for months or even years, they're are just magically fixed by a quick pstttt and kick to the groin a few times.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I never claimed the dog weren't turned around, it was you who said they were, but you don't know, do you? Serious dog issues have to be worked on continuously for months or even years, they're are just magically fixed by a quick pstttt and kick to the groin a few times.


I wouldn't know as I have never had a dog with a serious issue thank god if I did have a problem I wouldn't resort to hurting a dog in anyway I don't agree with that


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> I wouldn't know as I have never had a dog with a serious issue thank god if I did have a problem I wouldn't resort to hurting a dog in anyway I don't agree with that


So why do you think he's such a good trainer then when a lot of his methods physically hurt the dogs he works with?

As an aside I hesitate to call him a trainer, he's self taught and not a trainer anymore than I am.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Dogless said:


> More followers here than haters, I'm not one of them though!


Well if he has more followers than haters and his methods aren't good then surely that isn't a good thing? I must admit after seeing that video I have changed my views somewhat. Was that actually aired on TV???


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> So why do you think he's such a good trainer then when a lot of his methods physically hurt the dogs he works with?
> 
> As an aside I hesitate to call him a trainer, he's self taught and not a trainer anymore than I am.


After seeing that video I am not totally convinced that he is a good trainer


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> Well if he has more followers than haters and his methods aren't good then surely that isn't a good thing? I must admit after seeing that video I have changed my views somewhat. Was that actually aired on TV???


Here's another video which was aired:

Shadow turns blue - YouTube

The dog in question Shadow was choked using a choke collar by Milan until he peed himself and fell to the floor. Vets from the ASPCA looked at the footage and concluded the dog was being asphyxiated (strangled almost to death). The rescue the dog was from took him straight back because they were so appalled the owners let this happen.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

rotties4eva said:


> Well if he has more followers than haters and his methods aren't good then surely that isn't a good thing? I must admit after seeing that video I have changed my views somewhat. Was that actually aired on TV???


No, it isn't good at all!


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Here's another video which was aired:
> 
> Shadow turns blue - YouTube
> 
> The dog in question Shadow was choked using a choke collar by Milan until he peed himself and fell to the floor. Vets from the ASPCA looked at the footage and concluded the dog was being asphyxiated (strangled almost to death). The rescue the dog was from took him straight back because they were so appalled the owners let this happen.


Don't think I can watch


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> After seeing that video I am not totally convinced that he is a good trainer


 I'm glad you can see how he bullies a lot of dogs now. I'm sure he does some good, and some things he does say about being confident etc. is generally good advice, but he's set dog training back so much now it's unfunny. There's a disclaimer on his show for a reason - because his methods are not safe.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Here's another video which was aired:
> 
> Shadow turns blue - YouTube
> 
> The dog in question Shadow was choked using a choke collar by Milan until he peed himself and fell to the floor. Vets from the ASPCA looked at the footage and concluded the dog was being asphyxiated (strangled almost to death). The rescue the dog was from took him straight back because they were so appalled the owners let this happen.


That's the same dog who lunges up at him as a result of being kicked, that I mentioned earlier.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I couldn't even watch 30 seconds of that, makes me see red!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> Here's another video which was aired:
> 
> Shadow turns blue - YouTube
> 
> The dog in question Shadow was choked using a choke collar by Milan until he peed himself and fell to the floor. Vets from the ASPCA looked at the footage and concluded the dog was being asphyxiated (strangled almost to death). The rescue the dog was from took him straight back because they were so appalled the owners let this happen.


*lmfao..how many times will this be shown just to bring his name down? He can't be all bad if all people can do is reruns of old clips.*


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

The more of these clips I see I could honestly climb in there and smack this half wit in the gob :incazzato:


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

1 old clip is enough if it involves strangling a dog til it pisses itself, quite frankly. 

And it's not just one old clip is it? Not really.


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmfao..how many times will this be shown just to bring his name down? He can't be all bad if all people can do is reruns of old clips.*


I have never seen either clips but his methods will always be questioned as they can be seen as very harsh by some people. I don't always agree with everything he does but I do agree with some of his methods just not the prong collar and domination techniques


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmfao..how many times will this be shown just to bring his name down? He can't be all bad if all people can do is reruns of old clips.*


Keep on telling yourself that. Can't be as bad as everyone makes out? Have you ever put a choke chain on your dog and choked him almost to death? Ever kicked your dog, punched him, pinched his skin every day to get his attention? If so I can see why you'd agree with him. If not why aren't you? You obviously seem to agree with that method!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> Keep on telling yourself that. Can't be as bad as everyone makes out? Have you ever put a choke chain on your dog and choked him almost to death? Ever kicked your dog, punched him, pinched his skin every day to get his attention? If so I can see why you'd agree with him. If not why aren't you? You obviously seem to agree with that method!


*Hey you want to talk about choke chains,look at my picture of my gsd,Saracen. And yes, i would use one again.I will not follow the crowd,like it or not i see no harm in choke chains.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

rotties4eva said:


> No I don't always believe what I see on TV. I have watched his Tv Show for many years but do realise that the bad bits are probably not shown as we can see from this video. No need to be nasty How do you know though that some of the dogs are not turned around??


Ok, many people in the training world who frequent this forum have followed the progress, or lack of, of some of the dogs he has "rehabilitated". Several had to be rehomed as their aggression scared the owners, aggression I might add which was not present before he came along. Some have been pts and positive reward based trainers all over America will tell you how they have had to put right the damage done by this man whilst trying to cure a very small problem.

I hear this Holly was worked on by him for many sessions before he declared that she would never be safe around children. I could have cured her resource guarding in an hour or so without any of the intimidation he used. And I don't call myself a dog trainer, just someone who knows dogs.



Phoolf said:


> So why do you think he's such a good trainer then when a lot of his methods physically hurt the dogs he works with?
> 
> As an aside I hesitate to call him a trainer, he's self taught and not a trainer anymore than I am.


If you have taught your dog the basic commands such as sit, stay, loose leash, recall, I can assure you that you are more of a trainer than he is. He made a fool of himself on stage with Dr Ian Dunbar when it transpired that his pup did not know how to sit, because CM had no idea how to teach it. Dr Dunbar showed him how.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmfao..how many times will this be shown just to bring his name down? He can't be all bad if all people can do is reruns of old clips.*


It is not being shown to bring his name down. He has done that himself, unless it is a stand in appearing in those clips. It is shown again and again to enlighten people who do not realise that he is not the wonderful, dog savvy dog psychologist that they think he is.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *Hey you want to talk about choke chains,look at my picture of my gsd,Saracen. And yes, i would use one again.I will not follow the crowd,like it or not i see no harm in choke chains.*


:rolleyes5:

No point carrying on a discussion with someone who thinks choking a dogs throat is a grand idea.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> :rolleyes5:
> 
> No point carrying on a discussion with someone who thinks choking a dogs throat is a grand idea.


*I'll have you know my dog never was choked,using a choke chain.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *Hey you want to talk about choke chains,look at my picture of my gsd,Saracen. And yes, i would use one again.I will not follow the crowd,like it or not i see no harm in choke chains.*


Choke chains were never meant to be that though were they? They were originally called check chains and they need to be fitted the right way and they need to be used the right way, otherwise they are nasty. If you are using yours the right way, there is nothing wrong with it, though I personally don't like them, but they were never designed to use as a noose to hang a dog up with.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'll have you know my dog never was choked,using a choke chain.*


:lol: So what kind of possible reason would you have for using a CHOKE chain? Why can't you get results from your dog using a flat collar or harness?


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

Nukawin said:


> I admit I did really idolise Cesar, but I've only been here a short time and I'm starting to see why he's not so liked. I'm rather disappointed now, with myself for being so blind, and him for his ''techniques''.


Me too. 

The only thing I find good about him now is that his first question is generally, 'How much excercise does your dog get?' Which to most of us is common sense, but on a lot of occasions, common sense is not as common as one thinks. :sosp:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> :lol: So what kind of possible reason would you have for using a CHOKE chain? Why can't you get results from your dog using a flat collar or harness?


*lmfao...not everyone thinks and just goes with the flow.*


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *lmfao...not everyone thinks and just goes with the flow.*


What does that even mean in this context? Or is it a copout for not wanting to answer questions about training your dog without using choke chains?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Choke chains were never meant to be that though were they? They were originally called check chains and they need to be fitted the right way and they need to be used the right way, otherwise they are nasty. If you are using yours the right way, there is nothing wrong with it, though I personally don't like them, but they were never designed to use as a noose to hang a dog up with.


*If used in the right way, no harm will come to a dog..I used mine because Saracen didn't need to be corrected. Some people just love to jump to the worst conclusions.*


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

The choking noises these poor dogs make. 

Cesar Millan swinging dogs around by their scruffs - YouTube

His own collar is dangerous:

Cesar Millan's Dangerous Collar - YouTube

And last but not least. Someone who works on the show spills the beans on how the featured dogs are provoked, either by use of another dog or a human.

It all makes good TV if the featured dog is aggressive, right?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Well please don't be annoyed, because that is definitely not what I meant and not what I assumed you had meant either. Basically, the dog was not aggressive until he came along, and I feel that his attitude is that it is just a dog and not as important as humans. I certainly never thought that you felt that way, so please accept my apology.


Apology accepted and I've got off my high horse


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *If used in the right way, no harm will come to a dog..I used mine because Saracen didn't need to be corrected. Some people just love to jump to the worst conclusions.*


So why did you pick a choke instead of a normal flat collar?  Why did you feel happy to take the risk that your dog might try and lunge at something and damage its throat on a choke rather than use a harness where there is no damage to the throat?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Phoolf said:


> So why did you pick a choke instead of a normal flat collar?  Why did you feel happy to take the risk that your dog might try and lunge at something and damage its throat on a choke rather than use a harness where there is no damage to the throat?


*I prefer to have a choke chain on a large dog..i personaly can't stand to see flat collars on a gsd.*


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *I prefer to have a choke chain on a large dog..i personaly can't stand to see flat collars on a gsd.*


For aesthetic reasons?


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

For those that say he saves dogs from death row, well I techinically save Bos from death row, been in rescue 12 months if this home didn't work out then they were running out of options.
Training Bosley hasn't been easy, far fromit, he was totally unsocialised under exercised and neutered too early with no manners or basic training.
He still mouths, he still attention seeks and he still shouts at other dogs but we are getting there with everything. When I think of the issues we had to begin with to the ones we have now i know we are making progress.
My dog had never play bowed, I cried the first time he did.
He never sniffed a dogs bum ever, I cheered the first time he did.
He never rolled over or allowed people to tickle his tummy, the first time he gave me his tummy I sat for an hour jsut stroking and stroking.
All this has been achieve by postiive reinforcement.

The first time we had a newspaper in the house bosley wet himself.
The first time we raised our voices (at eachother not the dogs) he hid in the garden for over 2 hours too scared to come in.
The first time I grabbed his collar to move him he totally freaked out (in grown collar previously)

Bos has quirks that I can't explain and he can't tell me that I'm not sure I'll ever sort like no one can touch him when he's asleep, even the other dogs, he gets really upset, but what horror must have happened to him to make him feel like that? We get round it by talking to him first if we need to move him when he's dozing.

He hates hates HATES raised voices, he shakes, hides won't look at you and licks his lips almost non stop.

Same with motorbikes and tractors, he barks but licks and gets very stressed.

Can you imagine if CM had come to my house?! An treated him like that?? The damage would be irreversible. My dog would be classed as a hopeless case and either be dead or taken to live as part of his 'pack' 

As it is he is asleep on my foot and that is where he will stay for the rest of his life/


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> For those that say he saves dogs from death row, well I techinically save Bos from death row, been in rescue 12 months if this home didn't work out then they were running out of options.
> Training Bosley hasn't been easy, far fromit, he was totally unsocialised under exercised and neutered too early with no manners or basic training.
> He still mouths, he still attention seeks and he still shouts at other dogs but we are getting there with everything. When I think of the issues we had to begin with to the ones we have now i know we are making progress.
> My dog had never play bowed, I cried the first time he did.
> ...


Great Post says it all :yesnod:


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> For those that say he saves dogs from death row, well I techinically save Bos from death row, been in rescue 12 months if this home didn't work out then they were running out of options.
> Training Bosley hasn't been easy, far fromit, he was totally unsocialised under exercised and neutered too early with no manners or basic training.
> He still mouths, he still attention seeks and he still shouts at other dogs but we are getting there with everything. When I think of the issues we had to begin with to the ones we have now i know we are making progress.
> My dog had never play bowed, I cried the first time he did.
> ...


something simmular with my dai, he was kept in kennels so wasn't use to house hold noises, he would hide when the paper boy came in the morning, affraid of the tv and washing machine, he wouldn't go toilet out on walks, after a while he came to act like a normal dog should act, i used lots of treats & praises especially while out walking him, he has issues with other dogs that are higher energy than him but i'm working on those, he was also scared of men, he's not perfect, no dog is but he's my boy and isn't going anywhere, oh he also has seperation anxiety but we are slowly working on his problems


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *If used in the right way, no harm will come to a dog..I used mine because Saracen didn't need to be corrected. Some people just love to jump to the worst conclusions.*


They have got a bad name because most people yank the dog around on it, jerking it and just letting the dog pull till he chokes. They use them in the showring, don't they? I use half checks on my dogs for two reasons - a flat collar would get tangled up in their fur and would not be strong enough to hold them if they decided to pull. As it is if they do go a bit faster than me it stops them without hurting them.



LexiLou2 said:


> For those that say he saves dogs from death row, well I techinically save Bos from death row, been in rescue 12 months if this home didn't work out then they were running out of options.
> Training Bosley hasn't been easy, far fromit, he was totally unsocialised under exercised and neutered too early with no manners or basic training.
> He still mouths, he still attention seeks and he still shouts at other dogs but we are getting there with everything. When I think of the issues we had to begin with to the ones we have now i know we are making progress.
> My dog had never play bowed, I cried the first time he did.
> ...


I wish you hadn't told me all that - I am sitting here with tears running down my face. Poor little love, and so lucky to have found you.

I do wonder sometimes how CM would cope with Ferdie's "I'm going to sit here and there is nothing you can do about it". I expect he would drag him along like that poor Saint he decided was going upstairs even if it did ruin his joints.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can you imagine if CM had come to my house?! An treated him like that?? The damage would be irreversible. My dog would be classed as a hopeless case and either be dead or taken to live as part of his 'pack'


We had similar problems with Rupert and I said exactly the same thing. I firmly believe that using CMs methods he'd have ended up dead. As it was he was never what I'd call a normal dog but he had good quality of life and we did conquer many of his fears and learned to deal with most of the others.

We never got over his fear of raised voices though and it took him nearly 8 years to get over his fear of dishes being washed.

I watched one CM episode involving a dog terrified of the vets. I was in tears for the poor dog, she was so, so frightened and all he could go on about was bloody dominance and how she needed to submit  She didn't need to see a vet there and then, they could have tried desensitizing and counter conditioning her. There was no need to physically force her to lie there and put up with whatever she had done. And I seriously doubt it made her calmer the next time. If anything I would think she'd fight it even more!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> We had similar problems with Rupert and I said exactly the same thing. I firmly believe that using CMs methods he'd have ended up dead. As it was he was never what I'd call a normal dog but he had good quality of life and we did conquer many of his fears and learned to deal with most of the others.
> 
> We never got over his fear of raised voices though and *it took him nearly 8 years to get over his fear of dishes being washed. *I watched one CM episode involving a dog terrified of the vets. I was in tears for the poor dog, she was so, so frightened and all he could go on about was bloody dominance and how she needed to submit  She didn't need to see a vet there and then, they could have tried desensitizing and counter conditioning her. There was no need to physically force her to lie there and put up with whatever she had done. And I seriously doubt it made her calmer the next time. If anything I would think she'd fight it even more!


That is the best excuse I've heard for getting a dishwasher


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Thats the issue in some cases its a total loack of trust, Bosley wouldn't roll over and show his belly, its not a dominance thing, its a I don't trust you thing. It took 9 months for him to show me his belly and another 3 for him to show my hubby.

The raised voices thing, well his fear is so obviously we now don't shout in the house, if we want to shout we go have an arguement in the car 

There are horrors in his past that I don't know and can't imagine, and I am not going to force him to confront them, he'll do it in his own time. Ok so I would love to click my fingers and have a quick fix and make him forget but there isn't so we carry on chipping away.

I woudl hate to look into my dogs eyes and see nothing staring back at me, Bosleys eyes are full of happiness and mischief and as much as sometimes I want to tear my hair out I like him that way.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Should have gone to Specsavers - Cesar Millan style - YouTube


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

It was on my facebook waiting for me when I got up this morning!


Look on the bright side though Mr Milan, it colgate dont come throught with a contract you could always tried you hadn (the good one) a Kung Fu


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Hey you want to talk about choke chains,look at my picture of my gsd,Saracen. And yes, i would use one again.I will not follow the crowd,like it or not i see no harm in choke chains.*


I have used a Choke chain. Nothing wrong with them at all! Afterall if they are used properly, they don't choke the dog.

In fact did you know that alot more damage is done to a dog that pulls on a regular flat collar (like most around here do!) then a dog trained on a check/choke chain. Most people do not bat an eyelid at a dog pulling.

The main thing I cannot stand in dogs is pulling, and my dogs will never be allowed to.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

LexiLou2 said:


> *Thats the issue in some cases its a total loack of trust, Bosley wouldn't roll over and show his belly, its not a dominance thing, its a I don't trust you thing.* It took 9 months for him to show me his belly and another 3 for him to show my hubby.
> 
> The raised voices thing, well his fear is so obviously we now don't shout in the house, if we want to shout we go have an arguement in the car
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree. Like you, I sat for hours stroking Shorty's belly when he finally decided he trusted me enough to roll over and lift his paw up 
Dominance doesn't come into it with fearful dogs, they need to learn that they are safe and can trust you....forcing them and bullying them won't make that happen, it can only reinforce the fear, surely!


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

The only reason a check chain works as a training tool is because it causes pain. It causes pain and potentially harm to the neck even when "used properly".

It is simple enough to avoid a dog pulling against a flat collar while you train it to walk nicely in a positive way. All you need is a well-fitting suitable harness (but I suppose there's a reason why they are so much more awful than check chains as well ) A dog can go through its life without *any* pain or potential damage to its neck at all... imagine that?


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Werehorse said:


> The only reason a check chain works as a training tool is because it causes pain. It causes pain and potentially harm to the neck even when "used properly".
> 
> It is simple enough to avoid a dog pulling against a flat collar while you train it to walk nicely in a positive way. All you need is a well-fitting suitable harness (but I suppose there's a reason why they are so much more awful than check chains as well ) A dog can go through its life without *any* pain or potential damage to its neck at all... imagine that?


I dont see anything wrong with a check chain, i used 2 today and neither had caused any pain. I dont think the dog would allow me to put it on if it caused that much pain to be honest.

Ive seen dogs in pain, and a check chain does not cause pain. It allows the handler to have more control, but does not cause pain.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> I dont see anything wrong with a check chain, i used 2 today and neither had caused any pain. I dont think the dog would allow me to put it on if it caused that much pain to be honest.
> 
> Ive seen dogs in pain, and a check chain does not cause pain. It allows the handler to have more control, but does not cause pain.


:rolleyes5:


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> :rolleyes5:


And the face is for....?

I would much rather an owner have control over their dog one way or another to be honest, if it means a check chain then so be it.

But i do think people exagerate a little with the causing pain part. If someone is swinging and pulling the dog about then yes it will cause pain, but slightly pulling the dog back etc is not going to cause that much damage, it just allows more control. But i have personally not seen a dog in pain because of it when used correctly and not on a mental dog.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

I despise choke chains, I really do.
Janice, I have a big, powerful breed too, a dobermann. I have never seen a need to put a choke chain on him.
I use a half check, and I trained him to walk without pulling using treats and patience. And in actual fact, it only really took a couple of months of consistent work for him to have a nice loose lead walk 90% of the time, whether on a flat collar or a half check.
What purpose is there for a choke chain, from your view? I had someone in the street tell me I should get a choke chain for Dres back when he was smaller and still pully. When I told her he was only a puppy, and we would rather work on pulling using treats and patience, she looked at me like 'pfff, your loss'. 
People seem to think a choke chain will stop pulling, so sod having to put any effort into training, just bung an uncomfortable and potentially damaging collar on them and all should be well, yes?

If you're worried about fur rub on a thicker coated breed (another excuse I've heard for why people use choke chains) you can buy rolled leather collars which prevent this just as effectively.

You say your dog doesn't need 'choking'......so why is he on a choke chain? If he's walking nicely and well behaved, why not a flat collar, a harness, or a half check? Why choose the most damaging option, particularly when you claim to have a well behaved dog?!

I find it interesting that the people who support CM, also seem to support choke chains. Its a mindset I will never understand. Pain, fear, discomfort, anger, anxiety as training methods? No.

When I first got Dres, I was asking my breeder about which collar was best for him, and he very categorically stated 'this, this, this, but NEVER a choke chain'.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

How does it work then? If it doesn't cause pain? The POINT of it is to cause pain, it's designed to tighten, to cause pain, to build up a negative association with the behaviour you are trying to stop (and the loosening/cessation of yanking builds up a hard-earned positive association with the behaviour you are trying to encourage). That is how it is designed to be used as a training aid, through pain/discomfort and the relief of pain/discomfort.

Even when used "properly" that doesn't sit right with me and the fact that such a tool is also so open to abuse is worrying to the extreme.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> For those that say he saves dogs from death row, well I techinically save Bos from death row, been in rescue 12 months if this home didn't work out then they were running out of options.
> Training Bosley hasn't been easy, far fromit, he was totally unsocialised under exercised and neutered too early with no manners or basic training.
> He still mouths, he still attention seeks and he still shouts at other dogs but we are getting there with everything. When I think of the issues we had to begin with to the ones we have now i know we are making progress.
> My dog had never play bowed, I cried the first time he did.
> ...


Lovely lovely post! Bos has more than landed on his feet with you.
I can see many parallels with my Breeze, especially being touched when sleeping. She's bitten me when I've mistakenly touched her when she's snoozing and she bolts so violently that she runs into things and falls over her own feet. It's blind panic and I'm sure she'll never get over whatever has caused it  CM would probably say it was a dominance bite and pin her down to "calm" her - I expect she'd pass out from fear.



dandogman said:


> I have used a Choke chain. Nothing wrong with them at all! Afterall if they are used properly, they don't choke the dog.
> 
> In fact did you know that alot more damage is done to a dog that pulls on a regular flat collar (like most around here do!) then a dog *trained* on a check/choke chain. Most people do not bat an eyelid at a dog pulling.
> 
> The main thing I cannot stand in dogs is pulling, and my dogs will never be allowed to.


The problem is that people who know no better and find that their dog pulls on a flat collar often turn to the choke to "stop" the pulling. I see as many dogs pulling on chokes and slips as I do on flat collars. Pulling into _any_ collar is going to be detrimental to the dog but the ones that tighten will be the ones that cause the most damage.

And yes, I did know that, and highlighted the key element for you - TRAINED. 
One of my dogs is either on a slip or a harness depending on how long she'll be onlead (harness for mostly onlead walks, sliplead for mostly offlead walks). She does not pull and I've never known her to lunge. She was the fearful ex-puppy farm dog who would slip a flat collar when frightened, not safe near a road.
The other dog does sometimes pull and used to lunge, he is walked on a flat collar and harness. My mum used to walk him on a choke until he gurgled from nearly strangling himself - my parents' last dog (who didn't pull) wore a choke because my dad liked how it looked so she decided it would be fine for Scooter. I binned it and went back to basic lead training.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> I dont see anything wrong with a check chain, i used 2 today and neither had caused any pain. I dont think the dog would allow me to put it on if it caused that much pain to be honest.
> 
> Ive seen dogs in pain, and a check chain does not cause pain. It allows the handler to have more control, but does not cause pain.


How about a half check? You still get the 'checking' action, but it can't tighten indefinitely like a choke chain.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Thorne said:


> Lovely lovely post! Bos has more than landed on his feet with you.
> I can see many parallels with my Breeze, especially being touched when sleeping. She's bitten me when I've mistakenly touched her when she's snoozing and she bolts so violently that she runs into things and falls over her own feet. It's blind panic and I'm sure she'll never get over whatever has caused it  CM would probably say it was a dominance bite and pin her down to "calm" her - I expect she'd pass out from fear.
> 
> *The problem is that people who know no better and find that their dog pulls on a flat collar often turn to the choke to "stop" the pulling.* I see as many dogs pulling on chokes and slips as I do on flat collars. Pulling into _any_ collar is going to be detrimental to the dog but the ones that tighten will be the ones that cause the most damage.
> ...


You are absolutly right with that.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

What annoys me the most is when people say he 'cured' the dog, he didnt. He bullied it and bullied it until it shut down and became nothing more than a machine. Dogs are animals, they are not highly tuned cars that turn the way you want with the slightest turn of the wheel. They have their own minds, they breathe and play and yes sometimes they act up and are naughty. As i didnt see the whole episode i dont know where the dog came from but i have never known a rescue to rehome a food aggressive dog


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

I normally don't mind alot of Cesars methods, and some of the "blocking" techniques have worked well when I have used them, including my neighbours RR who would charge the door at every opportunity and had been hit on the road twice because of it!

BUT, that said, he was so so stupid in this clip! I don't think "biting" the dog with his hand around the food was that sensible to start with, I have no idea what he thought he would achieve in this case! Then the dog was giving plenty of warning and I think if he hadn't have been talking to the owner/the cameras he would have seen it and not gone to stroke the dog.

I have to say, I'm not sure I blame him for kicking the dog while she had hold of his hand, surely most peoples reactions would be to remove the dog however possible?
And of course he will have bite wound treatment with him, he is a dog behaviourist dealing with "red zone" cases, chances are he is going to need it eventually (all beit unnessesary this time!) And I am another who doesnt have a problem with correctly used choke chains.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

hazyreality said:


> I normally don't mind alot of Cesars methods, and some of the "blocking" techniques have worked well when I have used them, including my neighbours RR who would charge the door at every opportunity and had been hit on the road twice because of it!
> 
> BUT, that said, he was so so stupid in this clip! I don't think "biting" the dog with his hand around the food was that sensible to start with, I have no idea what he thought he would achieve in this case! Then the dog was giving plenty of warning and I think if he hadn't have been talking to the owner/the cameras he would have seen it and not gone to stroke the dog.
> 
> ...


Im sorry he is a what?? A dog behaviorist?? I doubt that very very much


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> How about a half check? You still get the 'checking' action, but it can't tighten indefinitely like a choke chain.


Yes i have used those too. Personally i would not use either, i only use them on dogs in kennels if that is their chosen lead desired by the owner. There are better leads and methods but would rather someone use one than them not feel in control etc.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

GermanShepardOwner said:


> There are better leads and methods but would rather someone use one than them not feel in control etc.


I see the same reasoning used on USA forums to support the use of prongs.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

tashax said:


> Im sorry he is a what?? A dog behaviorist?? I doubt that very very much


Well, I was trying to find the word for what they call him on the show and landed on that  Surely you know what I mean...
Thats the only part of my post you could pick on?


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi well me and my husband have just watched the second vid can someone actually show us where the dog gets choked because we have looked at this with an open mind but were expecting the worst and we couldn't see anything other than Cesar protecting himself from being savaged by a dog that was as tall as him when it was on it's back legs


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

rotties4eva said:


> Hi well me and my husband have just watched the second vid can someone actually show us where the dog gets choked because we have looked at this with an open mind but were expecting the worst and we couldn't see anything other than Cesar protecting himself from being savaged by a dog that was as tall as him when it was on it's back legs


I would like to know aswell, as I am damn sure, if that dog was trying to savage me, I would be getting it away from me aswell! That video gets put in every "I hate Cesar" thread, and I look most times to see if I can figure out what was so bad about him defending himself


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

hazyreality said:


> Well, I was trying to find the word for what they call him on the show and landed on that  Surely you know what I mean...
> Thats the only part of my post you could pick on?


I wasnt picking to be mean, i was skim reading and that bit stood out thats all


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

Personally, it saves me biting him myself!


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

rotties4eva said:


> Hi well me and my husband have just watched the second vid can someone actually show us where the dog gets choked because we have looked at this with an open mind but were expecting the worst and we couldn't see anything other than Cesar protecting himself from being savaged by a dog that was as tall as him when it was on it's back legs


If someone kicked me then strangled me I'd try to fight them off too!


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

tashax said:


> I wasnt picking to be mean, i was skim reading and that bit stood out thats all


OK, it just seemed like you were saying it was a stupid thing to call him, but I'm pretty sure that is what he is supposed to be (whether he is any good or not!)  We can all be accused of skim reading at times I think!

I read a write up of a program yesterday and was convinced it said "a judge gets stolen from her pram" - and I was thinking "why was she in a pram!" until I read again and it was "the daughter of a judge"


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Ray Craig said:


> Personally, it saves me biting him myself!


Some of the comments I have to say are a little immature. In relation to the second video I think most people would have flapped, dropped the lead and panicked, turning their back to the dog and subjecting other people to danger as well? I'm not convinced he got it right with the Lab but with that wolf breed he did nothing wrong. We all make mistakes sometimes, even the most experienced people. I would need to see a lot more evidence of wrongdoing before condemning this guy? And I haven't apart from the Lab one? Also he's being paid to help people, so not approaching dogs with aggressive tendencies is not really an option imo?


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I have used a Choke chain. Nothing wrong with them at all! Afterall if they are used properly, they don't choke the dog.
> 
> In fact did you know that alot more damage is done to a dog that pulls on a regular flat collar (like most around here do!) then a dog trained on a check/choke chain. Most people do not bat an eyelid at a dog pulling.
> 
> The main thing I cannot stand in dogs is pulling, and my dogs will never be allowed to.


Personally I have preferred to turn around and change direction. The dog will only pull when it is aware where you are going...no yanking or choking required dear...just time and patience.

I prefer long term lasting changes which involve an investment in and love of the dog to short term so called results.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rotties4eva said:


> Some of the comments I have to say are a little immature. In relation to the second video I think most people would have flapped, dropped the lead and panicked, turning their back to the dog and subjecting other people to danger as well? I'm not convinced he got it right with the Lab but with that wolf breed he did nothing wrong. We all make mistakes sometimes, even the most experienced people. I would need to see a lot more evidence of wrongdoing before condemning this guy? And I haven't apart from the Lab one? Also he's being paid to help people, so not approaching dogs with aggressive tendencies is not really an option imo?


I think the point that is being missed is that he is pushing these dogs to behave in the most extreme manner. Other *qualified* trainer/behaviourists wouldn't do that because dogs really aren't able to learn when they are in such a high state of arousal. It makes for great TV but not for great behaviour modification.

He interprets dog body language in quite bizarre, ridiculous way. fear and avoidance as dominance etc calming signals as you guessed it dominance etc etc

The quick fixes he provides do not address the root cause only cause the dog to hide the behaviour/shut down. I for one would prefer to address the causes of behaviours rather than tell my dog they have to " lie" to me about how they feel in any given situation.

The way junior behaves in the video springerhusky posted 



 is just heart breaking, please bear in mind this was a "clean slate" dog he raised from a puppy. I sure as hell don't want a dog that rolls onto their back when i walk toward them.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

rotties4eva said:


> Hi well me and my husband have just watched the second vid can someone actually show us where the dog gets choked because we have looked at this with an open mind but were expecting the worst and we couldn't see anything other than Cesar protecting himself from being savaged by a dog that was as tall as him when it was on it's back legs





hazyreality said:


> I would like to know aswell, as I am damn sure, if that dog was trying to savage me, I would be getting it away from me aswell! That video gets put in every "I hate Cesar" thread, and I look most times to see if I can figure out what was so bad about him defending himself


I am not 100% sure what video you are talking about, but if you are talking about this one... 
Shadow turns blue - YouTube

then the reason Shadow kicks off, is because Cesar kicked him. I would react the same way if someone kicked me for no proper reason. Then, we have the fact the dog is wearing a prong collar, and then he loops the flipping lead around the dogs neck! If someone was choking me out, I would try to savage them too! He was clearly being choked because he was struggling to breathe, and his tongue went blue. Once again, this is *Cesar* who causes the issue. TWICE the dog reacted to a kick, he wasn't just randomly trying to get at Cesar. He was trying to defend himself. Yes, Cesar needed to protect himself, but he shouldn't have kicked the poor dog in the first place... and of course, as soon as he starts choking the dog, the dog panics and starts to fight back... he is fighting for his life, in his mind.

If you are referring to a different video then ignore what I have said  I cannot remember what video was the second one, and there are too many pages to go back and check, so I am just going by the description you gave.


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> He interprets dog body language in quite bizarre, ridiculous way. fear and avoidance as dominance etc calming signals as you guessed it dominance etc etc
> 
> The quick fixes he provides do not address the root cause only cause the dog to hide the behaviour/shut down. I for one would prefer to address the causes of behaviours rather than tell my dog they have to " lie" to me about how they feel in any given situation.


I couldn't agree more. This theory of treating a domestic dog like a wolf and then behaving as one does nothing except denigrate the wonderful relationship between humans and their dogs that has been built up over thousands of years. We are carers and partners with our dogs...and they tell us this every day when they trust us,


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I like to know how my girl is feeling all the time, whether she is happy or scared or nervous. If she was taught the way he teaches and she shut down like all those other dogs, how do i know when she needs comfort or reassuring?? I want to know everything about my dog, that way i know what she needs, when she needs it


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> The way junior behaves in the video springerhusky posted Cesar&#39;s Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube is just heart breaking, please bear in mind this was a "clean slate" dog he raised from a puppy. I sure as hell don't want a dog that rolls onto their back when i walk toward them.


The dogs in that video were sending out every stressed-out and pacifying signal in the book - they clearly don't know whether they are coming or going.


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## Guest (Sep 17, 2012)

Cesar Millan does not save dogs from death row. He cherry picks dogs to portray on his show who very often end up losing their homes anyway and becoming permanent residents of his dog psychology center whatever that means. 
To me saving a dog means taking the dog no one else wants. Not ruining a dog who already has a home and just needs a few tweaks. Most of his episodes are things like teaching a dog to swim, getting a dane to walk on slippery floors, nothing a dog is going to be PTS over. Sure they throw a few of those in there, but please, lets not even remotely compare what amounts to a paid actor to the folks who are *really* in the trenches saving dogs.

Saying a method works is such a cop-out. Plenty of stuff works. A good meth addiction works to help you lose weight, and steroids work to help you build muscle. Doesnt mean its advisable to do. 
Kicking, punching, intimidating, bullying, asphyxiating and terrorizing a dog absolutely works to make the dog stop a behavior. 
But lets not forget that lack of behavior does not equal well-behaved. It just means the dog has learned to simply not do anything. Is such a dog a joy to live with? I guess that depends on what you value in your dog.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

I think the dogs have been dominated so many times all they do now is submit as thats all they know to do to stop the 'touch'. All he did was pick a ball up


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

hazyreality said:


> I normally don't mind alot of Cesars methods, and some of the "blocking" techniques have worked well when I have used them, including my neighbours RR who would charge the door at every opportunity and had been hit on the road twice because of it!
> 
> BUT, that said, he was so so stupid in this clip! I don't think "biting" the dog with his hand around the food was that sensible to start with, I have no idea what he thought he would achieve in this case! Then the dog was giving plenty of warning and I think if he hadn't have been talking to the owner/the cameras he would have seen it and not gone to stroke the dog.
> 
> ...


Kicking a dog is the last thing you should do. Anyone who is the expert Cesar Millan thinks he actually is, would now that.

You should never fight back, swinging an arm and a leg will only make the dog continue.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

He's had Junior since Birth, he was picked from a litter than had been born at his center by a female he'd taken on. 

I've had Brody over a month now and If I "charged" him like that he'd just wag his tail, go all silly and think it's a great game i'm playing.

How does a dog of what 2-3 years old now? behave like that with it's owner just because he wanted the ball off him as it was food time not play time. 

Honestly there are 1000's more people who save dogs every day, I don't see them being labeled as heroes and getting fame for the work they do.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Couldn't agree more with the comments about Junior. What a sorry state that little dog is in if he feels he needs to submit immediately when approached. He wasn't being actively engaged with, wasn't ignoring any commands, just happened to want to play at the wrong time.
How very, very sad.

I remember half tripping over a little Dachshund mix I was walking a couple of years ago who instantly threw herself onto her back and wet herself. Seeing her so frightened was heartbreaking so I completely fail to see why anyone would want their dog to "submit" to them like this on a regular basis.

This brought me to tears yesterday, talk about breaking a dog's spirit: Bulldog in Trouble - YouTube


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

He may not be perfect but he has helped me with my pack of seven dogs somewhat and I have a mixture of Rottweilers, Boxers and Staffys.

The things he has helped me with are

To help my dogs become calm before the walk

How to stop my dogs charging out the front door

How to cope with a large pack of dogs

Pack leadership in general

Calm assertive energy

And how to read dogs body language

I find he has helped me a lot especially as I have a large pack of dogs and hey ho they all get along like a house on fire thank you Cesar xxx


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> He may not be perfect but he has helped me with my pack of seven dogs somewhat and I have a mixture of Rottweilers, Boxers and Staffys.
> 
> The things he has helped me with are
> 
> ...


How? By his constant missing of the obvious signs etc?


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Attack Mode said:


> How? By his constant missing of the obvious signs etc?


Nah it's all to do with me ha ha


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Attack Mode said:


> How? By his constant missing of the obvious signs etc?


Or by labelling everything apart from complete shut-down/learned helplessness as "dominant"?


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

The only thing he has taught me, is if I ever break a Bulldogs spirit I should repeat the word "beautiful" every few seconds.

(This post will only make sense if you have watched the video link a few posts up by Thorne )


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## rotties4eva (Nov 26, 2011)

Attack Mode said:


> The only thing he has taught me, is if I ever break a Bulldogs spirit I should repeat the word "beautiful" every few seconds.
> 
> (This post will only make sense if you have watched the video link a few posts up by Thorne )


Ha ha ha hah


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think he showed great restraint actually, if that had been me I'd have kicked the sh*t out if that dog to get it off my hand - mind you he was on camera Bet it didn't half sting! 

Been watching The New Dog Whisperer UK and was amazed how he stopped the JRT constantly barking with just lavender oil and a tea towel. Gonna get some lavender oil for Bruce, bet it don't work for me!


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I think he showed great restraint actually, if that had been me I'd have kicked the sh*t out if that dog to get it off my hand - mind you he was on camera Bet it didn't half sting!
> 
> Been watching The New Dog Whisperer UK and was amazed how he stopped the JRT constantly barking with just lavender oil and a tea towel. Gonna get some lavender oil for Bruce, bet it don't work for me!


One kick, or "kicking the s*it out that dog", is totally the wrong way of dealing with an incident like that one. As is walking towards the dog while he has hold of your hand (as Cesar does). He is lucky the dog ran out of room to continue going backwards.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I haven't honestly watched THAT much of CM's 'work' to form a real opinion, but based on the short clips and things i've read about him on here, I don't think too much of him and personally found that video hilarious  he obviously got exactly what he deserved in that situation, why on earth did he do the 'bite' thing at the bowl? What reaction did he expect from the dog?! Personally I think a LOT of dogs whether they are food aggressive or not would've reacted in that way if someone came along and 'attacked' them (for want of a better word) for their food.

What a stupid, stupid man. That Labrador deserves a medal!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow poor junior. I've actually never seen a dog react quite like that apart from a poor little staffie that was physically abused :/ if I charged at any of the dogs in my household in that situation they would run thinking I was playing chase or jump towards me for a game!

I would also be pleased if my dog would rather pick up a ball play instead of focusing his attention on some food that wasn't for him. 

Yeah, he has taught me stuff aswell like stopping my dog door dashing and keeping him calmer! Nothing any other trainer couldn't have taught me tho!? He needs to be educated in how out dated and wrong dominance theory really is.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Attack Mode said:


> The only thing he has taught me, is if I ever break a Bulldogs spirit I should repeat the word "beautiful" every few seconds.
> 
> (This post will only make sense if you have watched the video link a few posts up by Thorne )


Just watched the video and I can't believe he thinks that dog's behaviour is 'beautiful'  Not sure what to say - that man is SICK - he seems to think the only way to have a dog is a submissive, fearful one 



> he is a dog behaviourist dealing with "red zone" cases,


He is not a dog behaviourist, he is an idiot who has made a lot of money by being a showman, not a dog trainer. And there is no such thing as a 'red zone' case - this has been made up by CM, along with his other dubious interpretations of canine behaviour.


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## sianrees1979 (Feb 27, 2009)

Hap - YouTube


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sezeelson said:


> Wow poor junior. I've actually never seen a dog react quite like that apart from a poor little staffie that was physically abused :/ if I charged at any of the dogs in my household in that situation they would run thinking I was playing chase or jump towards me for a game!
> 
> I would also be pleased if my dog would rather pick up a ball play instead of focusing his attention on some food that wasn't for him.
> 
> Yeah, he has taught me stuff aswell like stopping my dog door dashing and keeping him calmer! *Nothing any other trainer couldn't have taught me tho!?* He needs to be educated in how out dated and wrong dominance theory really is.


And this is the crux of the matter, a few people may have learnt a very small amount, such as remaining calm when training your dog, well, most of the time, but the harm his methods *teach* far outweigh any small amount of good that you could learn at a local dog training class.

I can't believe anyone who loves their dogs is actually taken in by the propaganda and publicity machine that surround this man. He's just an @rse to be quite honest and his methods are not only cruel, but avoid the actual problems, otherwise why would he need to wear dogs out with exercise before then provoking a response from them? So he can dominate them right? Why not just work on preventing the behaviour in the first place by offering an alternative with a reward?


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

sianrees1979 said:


> Hap - YouTube


That is horrible. I just don't get how people believe this anything other than bullying, how this is going to achieve anything other than a scared shutdown dog, How this is is going to create a happy balanced dog?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

rotties4eva said:


> Hi well me and my husband have just watched the second vid can someone actually show us where the dog gets choked because we have looked at this with an open mind but were expecting the worst and we couldn't see anything other than Cesar protecting himself from being savaged by a dog that was as tall as him when it was on it's back legs





> Shadow before and after
> Submitted by JM on April 25, 2012 - 5:53pm.
> 
> I am the current parent of Shadow. I fostered Shadow and was the one that adopted him to that family (mistakenly as it turns out). I took Shadow back after I saw this episode, I was furious.
> ...


Comments on "Did Cesar Millan Have to Hang the Husky?" | Psychology Today

The article they refer to: Did Cesar Millan Have to Hang the Husky? | Psychology Today

Extract:



> This is what a dog expert wrote to me about the stringing up of Shadow. "First, it looks to me like, Millan provokes and prolongs the attacks in order to string the dog up in such a way that he puts pressure on the carotid artery. Second, when he pins it with his hand, he definitely seems to put pressure on the carotid artery as well. If these observations are true, it's no wonder the dog is subdued. Makes me wonder whether that knuckle pinch also is aimed at the carotid?" If you have the courage to watch the video, you'll see that Shadow wasn't "merely" lifted off the ground.
> 
> Indeed, Shadow was put in his place and this degree of trauma likely will have a long term effect as does any other abuse to which an individual is exposed, intentional (as in this case) or unintentional. We know that dogs and other animals suffer from long-term depression and PTSD after being traumatized and training techniques that cause trauma shouldn't be sanctioned and should be strongly opposed.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2012)

Thorne said:


> This brought me to tears yesterday, talk about breaking a dog's spirit: Bulldog in Trouble - YouTube


there are a few videos on youtube that illustrate just how cruel some of the tactic's are this man uses , i were absolutely gobsmacked to see this yesterday , how can you use pressure like that on a dog that has so many skin folds and such narrow nasal passages , yet again he demonstrates perfectly why he ends up getting bitten.
[youtube_browser]ofOCYXkU39U[/youtube_browser]


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> That is horrible. I just don't get how people believe this anything other than bullying, how this is going to achieve anything other than a scared shutdown dog, How this is is going to create a happy balanced dog?


I quite agree, moonviolet. What I saw is that he, CM, grabbing the harness, which could have injured the dog, but I also saw him using the "Alpha roll", showing the dog that he is the dominant one, when, in fact, he just caused fear and distrust in the dog. Many of you know that any dog will do what it is told when it has been trained this way by its owner or a dog trainer is because the dog fears whatever it considers punishment if it does do as it is commanded. The thing is, when a dog is trained using positive reinforcement, the dog will still do what is commanded because it trusts and is willing to do and learn more.

Apparently, the networks of countries outside the United States didn't show the full episodes in which many of the dogs shown in his shows, according to those dog owners who were on the show and were interviewed, their dogs developed further behavioral problems. These dogs had to be retained all over again by dog trainers who use positive reinforcement.

As for my opinions on the man, CM, he is a good man, but I don't like his training methods. I just wish he would take more time to learn better dog training techniques as well as dogs body language and behavior.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

wvvdiup1 said:


> I quite agree, moonviolet. What I saw is that he, CM, grabbing the harness, which could have injured the dog, but I also saw him using the "Alpha roll", showing the dog that he is the dominant one, when, in fact, he just caused fear and distrust in the dog. Many of you know that any dog will do what it is told when it has been trained this way by its owner or a dog trainer is because the dog fears whatever it considers punishment if it does do as it is commanded. The thing is, when a dog is trained using positive reinforcement, the dog will still do what is commanded because it trusts and is willing to do and learn more.
> 
> Apparently, the networks of countries outside the United States didn't show the full episodes in which many of the dogs shown in his shows, *according to those dog owners who were on the show and were interviewed, their dogs developed further behavioral problems. *These dogs had to be retained all over again by dog trainers who use positive reinforcement.
> 
> As for my opinions on the man, CM, he is a good man, but I don't like his training methods. I just wish he would take more time to learn better dog training techniques as well as dogs body language and behavior.


Do you have a source for that? I'd love to have a link to share.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Do you have a source for that? I'd love to have a link to share.


I'm afraid I don't and have been searching for it for a long time.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

You have to hand it to Cesar, he's a self made man. But it's nothing a Dog can't undo.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

wvvdiup1 said:


> I'm afraid I don't and have been searching for it for a long time.


Bah, such a shame, I'd love to use some kind of link to try and change peoples minds when they say his methods work.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2012)

Zaros said:


> You have to hand it to Cesar, he's a self made man. But it's nothing a Dog can't undo.


I think he had a lot of help from Oprah Winfrey who booked him onto some of her shows, billing him as "one of the top dog trainers..." I don't know if she still backs him or not, but I do he has filmed his last episode of "Dog Whisperer" and has a new show coming up in the early part of next year called "Leader of the Pack" in which he goes around the world tackling the issue of canine abandonment. I don't know what television network it will be shown outside of the US, but it will be shown on NatGeo (National Geographic Channel).

You can read about from the *New York Times*: http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/tv/dog_gone_millan_g3r4NG6QNAyKkVnL5pQhCO


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> The way junior behaves in the video springerhusky posted Cesar&#39;s Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube is just heart breaking, please bear in mind this was a "clean slate" dog he raised from a puppy. I sure as hell don't want a dog that rolls onto their back when i walk toward them.


Are they his own dogs in that clip? All of them seem to be very wary of him and slink around, there is no joy, no happiness to see him from any of the dogs. Personally I would be mortified if my dog was like that.

For an expert in reading dogs he does seem to get bitten rather a lot - most ordinary folk would not feel its a good idea to prod a dog in the neck, mess with its food then back it into a corner. Basically it was bullied and provoked until it had no option but to bite to make him go away.

Makes you wonder if he has some sort of illness, provoking dogs to make them worse so that he can then get them off the owners. Strange behaviour


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

wvvdiup1 said:


> I think he had a lot of help from Oprah Winfrey who booked him onto some of her shows, billing him as "one of the top dog trainers..." I don't know if she still backs him or not, but I do he has filmed his last episode of "Dog Whisperer" and has a new show coming up in the early part of next year called "Leader of the Pack" in which he goes around the world tackling the issue of canine abandonment. I don't know what television network it will be shown outside of the US, but it will be shown on NatGeo (National Geographic Channel).
> 
> You can read about from the *New York Times*: 'Dog'gone Millan - NYPOST.com


This bit made me smile:



> Millan, the goateed canine svengali who created the template for TV animal behaviorists  and spawned a slew of knockoffs


So he created the template????? Can not think of any other TV behaviourists who copy his techniques. 

If only the article ended after the 1st sentence. 



> Tonight marks the end of Cesar Millans nine-season run as the Dog Whisperer


But I guess that the "goateed canine svengali who created the template for TV animal behaviorists  and spawned a slew of knockoffs", feels he should go spread his rubbish via the rescue dogs of the world.

Then again, maybe the title is just a bad one and he will do some good making people consider a rescue dog. We will see.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Are they his own dogs in that clip? All of them seem to be very wary of him and slink around, there is no joy, no happiness to see him from any of the dogs. Personally I would be mortified if my dog was like that.
> 
> For an expert in reading dogs he does seem to get bitten rather a lot - most ordinary folk would not feel its a good idea to prod a dog in the neck, mess with its food then back it into a corner. Basically it was bullied and provoked until it had no option but to bite to make him go away.
> 
> Makes you wonder if he has some sort of illness, provoking dogs to make them worse so that he can then get them off the owners. Strange behaviour


Yes they are all his dogs. Most are dogs he has taken off people as he deems them unsuitable to stay in their home environment. However the young Pit has always been his.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And this is the crux of the matter, a few people may have learnt a very small amount, such as remaining calm when training your dog, well, most of the time, but the harm his methods *teach* far outweigh any small amount of good that you could learn at a local dog training class.
> 
> I can't believe anyone who loves their dogs is actually taken in by the propaganda and publicity machine that surround this man. He's just an @rse to be quite honest and his methods are not only cruel, but avoid the actual problems, otherwise why would he need to wear dogs out with exercise before then provoking a response from them? So he can dominate them right? *Why not just work on preventing the behaviour in the first place by offering an alternative with a reward?*




Be fair. You can't expect someone who doesn't even know how to teach a puppy to sit to be able to teach an alternative behaviour to anything, now can you?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> [/B]
> 
> Be fair. You can't expect someone who doesn't even know how to teach a puppy to sit to be able to teach an alternative behaviour to anything, now can you?


I'm obviously going about it all wrong with Zasa, I mean, she sits beautifully for a treat, all this time I should have alpha rolled her several times, pinned her to the ground and made her submit (possibly wetting herself in the process so I really know she's submitted), before kicking her in the groin to encourage a nice sit


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I think he showed great restraint actually, if that had been me I'd have kicked the sh*t out if that dog to get it off my hand - mind you he was on camera Bet it didn't half sting!


But heres what I cant reconcile.
Cesar KNEW this dog has resource guarding issues.
He put her in a situation he knew full well might result in her biting or attempting to bite. He deliberately put her in a situation where he KNEW she would make a mistake. Then he kicks and punches her for the mistake he KNEW she was going to make.

Its one thing to have a fluke and find yourself bitten and do whatever it takes to manage the situation, but this was a situation that was purposefully created. It wasnt a fluke. He essentially sets the dog up to fail. And then rubs his hands in glee and says see? this is good. WTH?!

That would be like me giving my students a test on something I had never even remotely taught them or suggested that they learn, and then failing the whole class to teach them a lesson. Its completely bass ackwards and if I ran my classroom that way, Id be fired. Yet when a dog trainer does exactly that, we hail him as a hero.

If you know a dog is a guarder, you teach trust. You teach the dog that their signals will be heeded and respected. You teach alternate behaviors.
Note the operative word here - teach. There is no teaching happening in the Holly episode. The only thing Holly has learned is that she was absolutely right to guard her food.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> But heres what I cant reconcile.
> Cesar KNEW this dog has resource guarding issues.
> He put her in a situation he knew full well might result in her biting or attempting to bite. He deliberately put her in a situation where he KNEW she would make a mistake. Then he kicks and punches her for the mistake he KNEW she was going to make.
> 
> ...


Agreed! Watching it again I am shocked that he just kept on with ttormenting & intimidating the poor dog.

If he had been demonstrating how to resolve this issue & all was going well, Holly had been improving & her body language was relaxed, etc & then she had suddenly snapped with no indication then that would have been shocking. But her reaction was no suprise to even the most inexperienced of dog owner that this 'behaviour modification' session was not going well.

Surely this encounter would have only taught her one thing; to be more wary & to bite. Such a shame


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

He has dealt with resource guarded before but in a different slightly more positive way... Why didn't he do the same here?

He stuck a lead on the dog with one person at the end and another person holding the food bowl, that way the dog can be moved away from the food bowl when it starts to show any aggressive guarding behaviour. He ate slower as the food was being moved out of his reach and then given back when he wasn't being aggressive or he was moved away from the food if he was being aggressive. 

I don't think holly was actually that bad, she really didn't want to bite but was forced to through fear. I witnessed something similar when my friend believed he knew how to Stop my dog guarding, i could see the situation Unfold into something dangerous but he just couldn't see what he did wrong and believed my dog was literally evil... Funny how I overcome the problem without a single bite :/ I've seen dogs a lot more ready to bite then her in this situation.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2012)

sezeelson said:


> I don't think holly was actually that bad, she really didn't want to bite but was forced to through fear.


I agree. In fact she tried very, very hard NOT to bite, and gave CM ample opportunities to back the heck off. Then when she finally did bite it was still fairly inhibited. I notice he still has all his fingers and use of them.

The one who showed tremendous restraint was Holly, not Cesar.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> But heres what I cant reconcile.
> Cesar KNEW this dog has resource guarding issues.
> He put her in a situation he knew full well might result in her biting or attempting to bite. He deliberately put her in a situation where he KNEW she would make a mistake. Then he kicks and punches her for the mistake he KNEW she was going to make


Unfortunately, this is the sort of macho, ignorant dog training that makes him money. I do believe these situations are set up for the camera, but what is even more worrying is that he actually believes he understands dogs and can train them this way - and evey more worrying so do his followers.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Then when she finally did bite it was still fairly inhibited.


My thoughts exactly - she was deliberately provoked and gave every signal she could to try and tell him she was unhappy. Poor, confused dog - his methods and showmanship (and probably tv ratings) at the expense of these poor dogs.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

The clip actually had me pmsl
Even when the dog attacked the first time he continued to play to the camera with his kung fu pose! Guess he thought he looked macho


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Ben Mcfuzzylugs crafty bits and dog agility: Cesar Milan - How not to deal with food guarding

If you read towards the end you will see what happened to poor Holly


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> The only thing he has taught me, is if I ever break a Bulldogs spirit I should repeat the word "beautiful" every few seconds.
> 
> (This post will only make sense if you have watched the video link a few posts up by Thorne )


I now also know, thanks to another video. You should say "nice" repeatedly after every kick given to a dog.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

suewhite said:


> Ben Mcfuzzylugs crafty bits and dog agility: Cesar Milan - How not to deal with food guarding
> 
> If you read towards the end you will see what happened to poor Holly


It's been commented on here that she now lives with Cesar. He talked the family into handing her over to him.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> It's been commented on here that she now lives with Cesar. He talked the family into handing her over to him.


I'm sure she loves being around him and has built up a wealth of trust with her new 'owner'.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Ben Mcfuzzylugs crafty bits and dog agility: Cesar Milan - How not to deal with food guarding
> 
> If you read towards the end you will see what happened to poor Holly


I think this quote from your link sums it up Sue

_"Poor Holly, another dog failed by Cesar, a problem that is fixed daily by many behaviourist and trainers all over the world - in the hands of Cesar this poor girl lost her home and has a bite history on her record "_


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> I think this quote from your link sums it up Sue
> 
> _"Poor Holly, another dog failed by Cesar, a problem that is fixed daily by many behaviourist and trainers all over the world - in the hands of Cesar this poor girl lost her home and has a bite history on her record "_


Though I would not want to see any dog in the hands of this sadistic idiot, it seems to me that she didn't have much of a home in the first place. Anyone who would stand and watch that and then just hand over their lovely dog to him, obviously didn't love her in the first place.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

At least she didn't get put down, she's still got a home.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Wiz201 said:


> At least she didn't get put down, she's still got a home.


Yeah, stuck in CMs Dog Psychology Centre. Not sure how much of a home that is really.


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

Wiz201 said:


> At least she didn't get put down, she's still got a home.


So a bad home is better than no home??


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, stuck in CMs Dog Psychology Centre. Not sure how much of a home that is really.


a place where picking up a ball at the wrong time can land you on your back.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Here a few more details about his new show.

TV Show Submissions for Leader of the Pack | Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan

I hope the people "competing" for the dog are wanting one for the right reasons. Bet a few will be after the chance to be on tv.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Wiz201 said:


> At least she didn't get put down, she's still got a home.


She had a home. Her problems could of been dealt with in a manner that allowed her to stay in that home she had.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Here a few more details about his new show.
> 
> TV Show Submissions for Leader of the Pack | Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan
> 
> I hope the people "competing" for the dog are wanting one for the right reasons. Bet a few will be after the chance to be on tv.


God, he's going into a rescue with fearful, aggressive etc. dogs and 'rehabilitating' them?  Lord, give me strength. Those poor dogs. Unless of course he tones it down and is actually decent considering we don't tend to put up with a load of crap the USA will.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> a place where picking up a ball at the wrong time can land you on your back.


Sucks doesn't it?


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> God, he's going into a rescue with fearful, aggressive etc. dogs and 'rehabilitating' them?  Lord, give me strength. Those poor dogs. Unless of course he tones it down and is actually decent considering we don't tend to put up with a load of crap the USA will.


I am concerned about the process of 3 families competing to "win" a dog in effect.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> I am concerned about the process of 3 families competing to "win" a dog in effect.


Oh I'm sure it'll be a completely ethical competition. He who kicks hardest and with best timing wins for dog handling skills! Prize for most high pitched 'psttttt' and most efficient pinch of the skin.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The dog was pushed and goaded into it and left with no other alternatives.
Bless her she did try all the signs to say she was unsure and trying to give appeasement were there, lip licking, head lowered, body lowered, adverting her eyes and turning her head away. 

She took the food calmly and would have eaten no bother and with no problems had he not tried to take the food, which is when the showing teeth and growling started.

Hes lucky it was a lab and not a feistier breed, he would have ended up with worse then a couple of punctures, even then if she was that unstable as she was deemed to be she would have likely done more then she did.

On this occasion he got it very wrong, even said himself didnt see that coming, then if you dont look properly you wont will you.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Attack Mode said:


> Kicking a dog is the last thing you should do. Anyone who is the expert Cesar Millan thinks he actually is, would now that.
> 
> You should never fight back, swinging an arm and a leg will only make the dog continue.


I would actually like to know what to do in this situation, "a big dog bites and holds on and you are on your own, what do you do?" Luckily the only bite I have had(that went deep), the dog bit and let go with a "oh s**t that was human not dog(breaking up a dog fight!)
And then compare that to what your "average" person would do?

*Heidi*


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

I've never seen CM in action before,only heard of him.Even I could see how the first clip was going to end up.We as kids were always taught not to bother dogs when they're eating,I teach my kids the same.As it turns out Milly is a soppy thing and doesn't care if you touch her food,but if she was food aggressive I certainly wouldn't be using that method on her.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

hazyreality said:


> I would actually like to know what to do in this situation, "a big dog bites and holds on and you are on your own, what do you do?" Luckily the only bite I have had(that went deep), the dog bit and let go with a "oh s**t that was human not dog(breaking up a dog fight!)
> And then compare that to what your "average" person would do?
> 
> *Heidi*


If a dog held onto your hand and wouldn't let go then you are screwed. Don't put yourself in that position.

If you need to break up a dog fight and do not have water or anything available, then lifting the back legs of the dog who is holding on and gently walking backwards (so as not to tear) can often work.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I cannot see how people think it is acceptable behaviour for a dog to growl at snap when it's food is approached!


Your right its not acceptable for a dog to follow such behaviour. But then again how it was dealt with was also not acceptable.

I have no wish to get into another CM debate done my fair share on here, same old rubbish is spouted from both sides of the fence. But one thing that always remains for me is how uncomfortable I feel watching him 'train' dogs, to me that is not training, anyone that finds CM's behaviour in that video acceptable, surely needs their heads testing.

Thought good old CM was the all time dog whisper and reader of dogs behaviour, shame he never saw that 'attack' coming on. It was very clear that dog wasnt happy with CM, CM comes across far to threatening.

Im just glad that it was CM that got the bite here, because he could have so easily left the owners believing he has changed the dogs behaviour only for one of the family to be attacked, due to the damage that CM caused with his clear lack of knowledge with dogs with such behaviour problems.


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## Ray Craig (Aug 10, 2012)

I taught my children that you do not touch a dog when it is eating. I know a lot of people think it is a healthy show of power to remove or be near a dog and his dinner. Personally I stop at the sit and wait for permission...after that - the bowl is their entitlement and therefore they have the right to defend.

Toys etc have a different remit, but we are talking about the basics of survival with an animal and food, and that balance deserves respect in my book. Also logically...do you feel you should remove your childrens dinner from them just because you can? You are trusted as a carer to provide, not to play silly games. It is merely a power game and has no bearing on relationship. Interestingly on the one occasion that I had to remove one of my dogs bowls temporarily (forgot to crush an antibiotic in it)...he let me because he trusted it would be returned


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## Hardwick Hounds (May 30, 2012)

OMG! I am shocked. I've always heard bad things about cesar but have never watched his programmes so hadn't witnessed anything like this! Why would you try and dominate a dog like that and put fear into it??? Even if he achieved what he he wanted - a submissive reaction - it wouldn't have taught the dog anything. It would have made the poor dog confused and frightened! Not exactly the results the owner is wanting I imagine.

Surely hand feeding is the answer in this case. I would calmly sit with the dogs food bowl and offer a few kibble to the dog from my hand when it is being calm and gentle. I would take my time with this and repeat it until I am satisfied that the dog understands that I am providing the food for it to calmly eat with no need to fear of me taking it away again.

I hope this poor dog isn't scarred for life as I would imagine this incident would reinforce its behaviour.


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> If a dog held onto your hand and wouldn't let go then you are screwed. Don't put yourself in that position.


I agree with the 'don't put yourself in that position' bit (and Millan definitely put himself in that position), but I think she was referring to a situation in which you get attacked by a dog you haven't provoked. If so, that's completely different in my opinion.

Personally, if a dog attacks you for no good reason, that to me is not a training situation. That is a self-defense situation. And if it didn't let go, I'd have no qualms about getting physical with that dog. I'd pull it's ear, grab its throat, punch it in the nose, kick it, whatever it took to show it it picked the wrong guy to fight. I'm not going to sit there and ask myself 'what is best for the dog?' while it tries to chew my arm off.

That said, and just to reiterate, what Millan did by kicking that dog was wholly out of line because he _provoked _the dog into biting him. Morally speaking, he should have stood there and taken his lumps for being so stupid. But an _unprovoked _attack is not the time to try to train a dog or be all supernice and peaceful, it's a time to defend yourself.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Ray Craig said:


> I taught my children that you do not touch a dog when it is eating. I know a lot of people think it is a healthy show of power to remove or be near a dog and his dinner. Personally I stop at the sit and wait for permission...after that - the bowl is their entitlement and therefore they have the right to defend.


I expect my dogs to be fine with me walking past them while they're eating and I think nothing of stepping over Spencer while he's eating (he eats in the most inconvenient place possible really) or nudging whatever he's eating back onto the towel he's fed on if necessary. But I've also taught that there's no need to defend food from me, I'm not going to take it away or if I do it'll just be swapped for something better.

If anything I'm welcomed around my dogs food. I loosen stuff up in Kongs and am much better than him at holding bones still to be gnawed on apparently


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

hazyreality said:


> I would actually like to know what to do in this situation, "a big dog bites and holds on and you are on your own, what do you do?" Luckily the only bite I have had(that went deep), the dog bit and let go with a "oh s**t that was human not dog(breaking up a dog fight!)
> And then compare that to what your "average" person would do?
> 
> *Heidi*


Easier said than done I know, but:

Remain calm, do not make the dog see you as a further threat by walking towards it, or lashing out with an arm or leg. Also due not try and pull away as the dog will just tighten it's grip, resulting in worse injuries to yourself.

You can try and fend the dog off with any object you have to hand, such as a bag, or coat. Anything that is not attached you, unlike an arm or leg.

The key is, once the dog no longer sees you as a threat it should stop.

As already said, prevention is better than cure. Do not go putting yourself in a position where a dog is likely to bite you.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

I've always been a "sit on the fence" type person where his highness Milan is concerned, but I have to say that I found this latest controversy quite sickening and I actually hope that this sees an end to his show.

Jim Crosby has released a statement and video walk through on his blog....very interesting reading.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I expect my dogs to be fine with me walking past them while they're eating and I think nothing of stepping over Spencer while he's eating (he eats in the most inconvenient place possible really) or nudging whatever he's eating back onto the towel he's fed on if necessary. But I've also taught that there's no need to defend food from me, I'm not going to take it away or if I do it'll just be swapped for something better.
> 
> If anything I'm welcomed around my dogs food. I loosen stuff up in Kongs and am much better than him at holding bones still to be gnawed on apparently


Exactly. This has nothing to do with a show of power. If you've had you dog from a pup and he knows that you're not going to take his food/bones away because it's been proven to him over hundreds of trials then it's just business as usual.

There is an alarmingly simple solution to this. Ban all dog bowls. Ergo all dogs are fed by hand. Ergo food aggression does not exist. Who will sign my petition ?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

diefenbaker said:


> Exactly. This has nothing to do with a show of power. If you've had you dog from a pup and he knows that you're not going to take his food/bones away because it's been proven to him over hundreds of trials then it's just business as usual.
> 
> There is an alarmingly simple solution to this. Ban all dog bowls. Ergo all dogs are fed by hand. Ergo food aggression does not exist. Who will sign my petition ?


No, nothing to do with dominance or power at all, just wanting to move safely around the house regardless of whether my dog is eating or where he's eating. My collie was a nightmare, snarly if you so much as moved while he was eating and if you walked past him he'd have you. Our own fault for using CM type methods though.

My last 2 have been adolescents and I've no idea whether they came to me with food issues. I just treated them as though they were like Shadow and stayed at a distance tossing food in their direction while they ate and gradually getting closer. I figured even if it was unnecessary it wouldn't do any harm whereas sticking my hand in there might.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

DogWalker1234 said:


> I agree with the 'don't put yourself in that position' bit (and Millan definitely put himself in that position), but I think she was referring to a situation in which you get attacked by a dog you haven't provoked. If so, that's completely different in my opinion.
> 
> Personally, if a dog attacks you for no good reason, that to me is not a training situation. That is a self-defense situation. And if it didn't let go, I'd have no qualms about getting physical with that dog. I'd pull it's ear, grab its throat, punch it in the nose, kick it, whatever it took to show it it picked the wrong guy to fight. I'm not going to sit there and ask myself 'what is best for the dog?' while it tries to chew my arm off.


Thats exactly what I ment, I don't mean provoked, because quite simply I hope I am not stupid enough to get into that position.

The dogs I broke up were 4 patterdales while I worked at the kennels, one so much older (think she was 10 and the others 4), and they would have killed her, I had to do something, and so be it if I got hurt. I had my boss on her way over to help, I just had to get them off of her 

I look after dogs while people are away, and should one take a dislike, and "latch on" so to speak, thats what I wanted an answer for as obviously alot of the time I am alone.

I have 9 dogs at the moment. I wanted to give them some one on one time and one of the collies lunged at my arm as I was playing with a kong (I went to throw, he bit my arm, I havn't played with him again! I don't need to try it twice), and luckily it was just a really big bruise and a small amount of broken skin and it was a "snap" not a "bite" but the owner hadn't warned me, and he had given no warning.
He was wagging his tail and jumping around waiting for me to throw it, and I had done a few times, and he had dropped it for me to throw again. 
If he had held on, I am pretty sure at that point I would have done all I could to get him off?
He has also snapped at my knee when I walked through the garden, so I will only deal with him in the kennel block now, he plays with the other dogs in the garden instead.

*Heidi*


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

hazyreality said:


> Thats exactly what I ment, I don't mean provoked, because quite simply I hope I am not stupid enough to get into that position.
> 
> The dogs I broke up were 4 patterdales while I worked at the kennels, one so much older (think she was 10 and the others 4), and they would have killed her, I had to do something, and so be it if I got hurt. I had my boss on her way over to help, I just had to get them off of her
> 
> ...


I think that's more of a situation (with the collie) of the dog lacking bite inhibition than it trying to "attack" you. It sounds like it got excited and was going for the toy and just got you by mistake. Similar to the situation where you were breaking up the fight, it's just a mistake you got bit and nothing more. Which is not to say it's ok for the dog to do this, but it's unlikely that would escalate into a persistent attack where you need to get physical to defend yourself.

Probably someone else will have some good advice on the kinds of situations you're describing, or you could just start another thread?


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

DogWalker1234 said:


> I think that's more of a situation (with the collie) of the dog lacking bite inhibition than it trying to "attack" you. It sounds like it got excited and was going for the toy and just got you by mistake. Similar to the situation where you were breaking up the fight, it's just a mistake you got bit and nothing more. Which is not to say it's ok for the dog to do this, but it's unlikely that would escalate into a persistent attack where you need to get physical to defend yourself.
> 
> Probably someone else will have some good advice on the kinds of situations you're describing, or you could just start another thread?


He got halfway up my lower arm, he didnt miss the toy  but I'm not going to say he is "dangerous" as you say, he was excited, I just won't chance it again!  I don't think of it as a attack but if it had been a dog that was possesive, it could have been if you see what I mean. 
Will start off a thread about defending a dog attack, will be interesting to see peoples views


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

hazyreality said:


> He got halfway up my lower arm, he didnt miss the toy  but I'm not going to say he is "dangerous" as you say, he was excited, I just won't chance it again!  I don't think of it as a attack but if it had been a dog that was possesive, it could have been if you see what I mean.
> Will start off a thread about defending a dog attack, will be interesting to see peoples views


My views will be as stated earlier. 

Though I will look out for this new thread.


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

hazyreality said:


> *He got up by my elbow, he didnt miss the toy  *but I'm not going to say he is "dangerous" as you say, he was excited, I just won't chance it again!
> Will start off a thread about defending a dog attack, will be interesting to see peoples views


You might be surprised. Dogs don't see in the detail we do. I'm not an expert but it wouldn't surprise me if a dog could not tell your moving arm from a toy.

I'll be interested to hear what others say as well...


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

sorry only got to page 17 and gave up 

my 2 cents, he pushed the dog too for and the dog got so stressed it took the fight option to get him to back off, any idiot could see the dog was still "in the zone".

Also to the people who say dont get into a position between a dog and food well, I have a Malamute who doesnt love food, she is obsessed by it. I also have a 15mth old son. I have seen him drop food while the dog is in the same room, a split second could mean the sh*t hits the fan. BUT, my dog knows to be gentle. She will not snaff food from directly within 1ft of him unless i tell her its ok to. I worked from day 1 with food as Malamutes are just a stomach with teeth :lol: My little boy sets her food out for her (with supervision obv), he loves nothing more than feeding her and Shorty asocciates my son with food and walks, all the good stuff 

Kids DO get into their bowls, they DO try and take things off them, at 15mths old my sons understanding is limited by having a good foundation in the first place with Shorty is making it so much easier, sorry for the ramble!


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

All I can say if if you pi$$ about with dogs in the way Cesar Milan does (not saying if I think he is right or wrong, that is a whole other thread been done to death!!!) then chances are he is going to get bit. I'm not surprised it happened, it was only a matter of time.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Here's another video which was aired:
> 
> Shadow turns blue - YouTube
> 
> The dog in question Shadow was choked using a choke collar by Milan until he peed himself and fell to the floor. Vets from the ASPCA looked at the footage and concluded the dog was being asphyxiated (strangled almost to death). The rescue the dog was from took him straight back because they were so appalled the owners let this happen.


Another example of Milan's complete lack of understanding is shown in this video, of basic biology. He says the erection the dog has after being strangled is a sign of dominance. No, it's because the blood that's unable to get to the brain has to go somewhere. It's something hangmen were familiar with.

I'd seen this clip before, and hadn't heard the dog had been taken back by the rescue. Glad they did, it's an appalling thing to watch.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm watching the South Park episode with CM right now...looks like they hold him in the same regard I do 

Warning: South Park contains lots of swearing!

South Park Cesar Milan episode


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Cesar's Dog Training Video: Aggression During Feeding - YouTube
> 
> Follow up :incazzato:


not a follow-up, S-H - a separate episode, posted by CM/DW [supposedly].

Note the copy under the vid-screen: 


> "Uploaded by CesarMillan on *Feb 3, 2012*
> 
> The winners of CesarsWay.com 'Dogs Behaving Badly' contest are Felipe & his deaf-dog
> Maluquinho, from Brazil. The fans voted that Felipe & his dog needed Cesar's help the most -
> ...


they 'won' a session with Cesar. This dog is not in the USA, but Brazil, & is deaf to boot.
haven't watched the clip yet - no doubt it will be, shall we say, sadly familiar. :nonod:


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> not a follow-up, S-H - a separate episode, posted by CM/DW [supposedly].
> 
> Note the copy under the vid-screen:
> 
> ...


It is a follow up in sorts. He answers the winners question by using Holly, who is now living with him.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> ...i personally can't stand to see flat-collars on GSDs.


 then what do U put ID-tags or city- / county- / municipal-license tags on?...

i thought such tags were required on every dog that is off the owner's property, whether on-leash or off-leash, 
in the UK?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I would just like to point out that I liked JANICE199 post about GSD's in flat collars by accident, not cause I agree... off to unlike it now!


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

a great guy who is very good at his job


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## LottieLab (Jan 2, 2012)

Well, I have to say . . . He deserved that!!!:thumbup:!

I'm not saying its acceptable for a dog to do that, but its about time! He spends so much time pushing dogs around, kicking them, punching them, shoving them around - I bet dogs have a secret spy organisation and someone warned Molly that Cesar was on the move:001_tongue:!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LottieLab said:


> Well, I have to say . . . He deserved that!!!:thumbup:!
> 
> I'm not saying its acceptable for a dog to do that, but its about time! He spends so much time pushing dogs around, kicking them, punching them, shoving them around - I bet dogs have a secret spy organisation and someone warned Molly that Cesar was on the move:001_tongue:!


It is certainly not the first time he has provoked a seemingly non aggressive dog to bite him. He seems to think it makes him look brave, when in fact to everyone who knows anything about dogs, it just makes him look even more stupid than the Jackie Chan pose.

He declared that he didn't see that coming, but everybody else did, so if he is such an expert why was he the only one who didn't see it coming.


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## Holdim (Sep 20, 2012)

Placing more stress on an obviously already stressed dog, backing the dog gradually into a corner, ignoring numerous distance increasing behaviours!!!! Quote Cesar, "I didn't see that coming". Are you having a laugh?????? By the time he nailed him I was watching through my fingers. Milan, you're crap. You're so full of your own hype its unbelievable. On a serious note though, this man must be responsible for the suffering of more pet dogs in the world than any other individual!!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> It is certainly not the first time he has provoked a seemingly non aggressive dog to bite him. He seems to think it makes him look brave, when in fact to everyone who knows anything about dogs, *it just makes him look even more stupid than the Jackie Chan pose.*
> He declared that he didn't see that coming, but everybody else did, so if he is such an expert why was he the only one who didn't see it coming.


I think Jackie Chan would kick CM's *rse if he saw that clip


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## auxonian (Aug 30, 2012)

I'm getting the distinct impression that Cesar isn't very popular! Seems to do well for himself though, so there must be something in it?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

auxonian said:


> *I'm getting the distinct impression that Cesar isn't very popular*! Seems to do well for himself though, so there must be something in it?


This is a quote from Mark Antony. Isn't it?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Zaros said:


> This is a quote from Mark Antony. Isn't it?


I can't believe how long it took me to get that...the meds are kicking in, time for bed :laugh:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Attack Mode said:


> He answers the [Brazilian owner's] question [re their deaf-dog's behavior] by using Holly,
> who is now living with [CM/DW, at his new 'Dog-Psych' compound].


sorry, yes - i did see that when i watched the clip; my apologies, i had only read the description 
& thought they'd fly the dog + owner to the States for their 'winning session', but i spoze using Holly 
as a live-in stooge is cheaper than air-fare for 2 from Brazil.  :nonod: Poor dog - she still doesn't 
look easy in her mind around him; can't say i blame her, that clout on the neck & kick were one 
helluvan intro to the World According to Cesar.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

myshkin said:


> I can't believe how long it took me to get that...the meds are kicking in, time for bed :laugh:


In a clear raised tone of voice....

IT'S

OH

KAY

DEAR

NURSE

WILL

BE

HERE

SHORTLY!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

auxonian said:


> I'm getting the distinct impression that Cesar isn't very popular! Seems to do well for himself though, so there must be something in it?


The Mafia also do well for themselves, so that must make them right as well.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

auxonian said:


> Seems to do well for himself though, so there must be something in it?


I think whats 'in it' is the fact that some people love the idea of being 'alpha' of their 'pack', and the whole 'push your dog around, dominate it, be the boss' attitude really appeals to people. People want to think that this is how dogs think, and they get a little buzz from being 'dominant' over something smaller and weaker.
Remember, humans are group living animals too, and certain humans have a desire to dominate; you can see it in their attitude to people, too.
So if they are told that they're right to be the big, tough, no BS, alpha guy, they love it. Its an excuse to be a bully, that they can explain away with 'I have to, thats how dogs work!!!!'

These kinds of people would be embarrassed to be using the positive, confidence building approach, they'd see it as 'soft' or 'fuffy', whereas a boot to the ribs, or jerking the dog about by its neck, well, that shows their strength and power .
There are just people who love any opportunity to be a bully, to a person or an animal, and its even better when they can pretend they're doing it because they 'have to'.

There are two groups of people I've met who follow the CM training style. One are naive people who think everything on the TV is factual and correct and follow him because they're too ignorant/lazy to look into better ways.

And two are 'alpha' people; people who think the world loves them and revolves around them and have a 'tough guy' (or girl!) attitude, and think the world views them as the big boss, and carry this natural bullying tendency across to their dogs.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> I think whats 'in it' is the fact that some people love the idea of being 'alpha' of their 'pack', and the whole 'push your dog around, dominate it, be the boss' attitude really appeals to people. People want to think that this is how dogs think, and they get a little buzz from being 'dominant' over something smaller and weaker.
> Remember, humans are group living animals too, and certain humans have a desire to dominate; you can see it in their attitude to people, too.
> So if they are told that they're right to be the big, tough, no BS, alpha guy, they love it. Its an excuse to be a bully, that they can explain away with 'I have to, thats how dogs work!!!!'
> 
> ...


The funniest thing about people like the ones you mention are that their dogs are usually the worst behaved in my experience!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> sorry, yes - i did see that when i watched the clip; my apologies, i had only read the description
> & thought they'd fly the dog + owner to the States for their 'winning session', but i spoze using Holly
> as a live-in stooge is cheaper than air-fare for 2 from Brazil.  :nonod: Poor dog - she still doesn't
> look easy in her mind around him; can't say i blame her, that clout on the neck & kick were one
> helluvan intro to the World According to Cesar.


Check out the behaviour of the pit bull and one of the other dogs in that video, really disturbing body language around him.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *I prefer to have a choke chain on a large dog..i personaly can't stand to see flat collars on a gsd.*


My GSD walks on a normal flat collar. A pink one at that. She doesn't pull on the lead and we've worked hard on loose lead walking and a nice flat collar is just the job for clipping the lead on and attaching the ID tags, no dangly chains to catch on anything...and I think they look nice! I know people use all sorts of different things and as long as it's a well fitted and humane accessory then fine...but surely functionality is more important than appearance...but then again, I guess a pink flat collar fits with the image I want for Rosie - a friendly pet who's a girl...


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