# Tail Docking!



## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

Since April it has been illegal for Dogs to have their tails docked with exclusion of Working dogs ie Hunting, Security.

To be honest I dont know where I stand on this one but just wondered what others thought...

So here's a poll!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

as long as they are docked by a professional i don't see the problem.

some dogs that are meant to have docked tails now look a right site for sore eyes with their tails on, some of the tails are proper bushy, the boxer, old eng sheepdogs , rotty and others besides looked way better with docked tails.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

I agree they looked better - but is that enough reason to dock their tails??


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## plumo72 (Nov 2, 2007)

I can't stand a dog with a docked tail. We've got an undocked Boxer and she looks well better


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

Never seen a boxer with a tail yet... but in a few years that's all you'll see.

P.s - you spennd far to much time in the arcade - champion!!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

sorry plummo i don,t agree, boxers look a right state wiv their tails, my mate has 2 wiv tails and looking at his older ones wiv no tails, i have to say the docked tails look way way better.

i know the looks of a docked tail on a dog don't mean it should'nt be banned tho, but im just saying i think the dogs that are meant to have dcked tails look way better.
again if it is done properly by a professional and the pup aint in pain, i really don't see a problem.

ps. im not saying your boxer is not nice looking tho, coz he really is sweet and cute, but i still think he would looked original and better docked


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## plumo72 (Nov 2, 2007)

Magik said:


> Never seen a boxer with a tail yet... but in a few years that's all you'll see.
> 
> P.s - you spennd far to much time in the arcade - champion!!


Hey i'm on maternity leave and i'm soooooo bored  lol


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## plumo72 (Nov 2, 2007)

loe said:


> sorry plummo i don,t agree, boxers look a right state wiv their tails, my mate has 2 wiv tails and looking at his older ones wiv no tails, i have to say the docked tails look way way better.
> 
> i know the looks of a docked tail on a dog don't mean it should'nt be banned tho, but im just saying i think the dogs that are meant to have dcked tails look way better.
> again if it is done properly by a professional and the pup aint in pain, i really don't see a problem.
> ...


I've never liked Boxers that have been docked. I like Dobies and Rottie's that have though.

I have to admit my Boxer wags alot and it bloody stings when she wacks your legs with her tail. Not looking forward to when she's full grown


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

it's a question of taste!!!


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

I posted this in another post 


colacooler said:


> It is true at this moment in time i would never buy a pup in the UK as it will have a tail due to the fact that Boxer tails are mental, some can curve up higher than it's body, some off to the side etc
> 
> Also they smash and hit things and get damaged as they are thick and very strong.And I don't want to go through A)the healing process of a damaged tail, trying to stop the dog from licking the tail and B) Possible amputation...a friend has had to have her boxer who's 6months old docked by a vet due to damage.
> 
> ...


Your boxer is soooo cute Plummo, I really hope that she doesn't hurt herself.

Watch out for those door frames etc she will wack em!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

yes it is .

strange tho when u think about it coz our future kids will only know these dogs as having tails like we have known em without their tails, mad aye  they will probs turn round and say..eeew they look orrible wiv no tails..lol.

lol at the tail whip


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

it'll be chaos too... tails knocking cups of tea over everywhere!!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

lmfao,
omg i can say talar to my evening can of foster 
thats if a m8 come round wiv their boxers lol.

the dog sort by the way


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## plumo72 (Nov 2, 2007)

michaela290497 said:


> at the end of the day if a dog is know to have it's tail docked then have it docked take rotty's for example it's not a rotty if it has a tail, i am looking for a rotty now and have finally found someone that wil dock the tails.
> so i agree with them having their tails docked


I thought it was against the law now?


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

It is against the law in England as from April this year, however you will always find someone who will do it, but the dogs will not be able to be shown if they have been docked after this date.
People are used to seeing these breeds without tails, so they view it as normal, and think it strange when a dog has a tail, over the last few years more and more dogs have not been docked, so I have seen lots of these breeds with tails, I like them.
I agree sometimes tails will need to be amputated for medical reasons, I know 3 Labs with no tail for this reason.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

Kennel Club statement

Competing with docked or cropped dogs in the UK
05-Mar-07

Docked Dogs

Dogs which were docked before 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows held in Wales)

If your dog was docked either in the UK or in a foreign country before 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows in Wales) then it may compete at all Kennel Club licensed events.

Dogs which were docked on or after 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows held in Wales).

If your dog was docked on or after 6th April 2007 (28th March for shows held in Wales and irrespective of where it was docked) it will not, under the law, be permitted to be shown at any show in England or Wales where the public are admitted on payment of a fee.

However, if your dog was legally docked either in the UK or in another country on or after 28th March/6th April 2007, you will be permitted to compete with it at:

(a) all shows held in Scotland

(b) all shows held in Northern Ireland

(c) those shows held in England and Wales where the public do not pay to be admitted.

Shows where the public are admitted on payment of a fee

All shows which charge the public for admission must state this on the show schedule and entry form - but you should check carefully whether or not your dog is eligible before entering.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

you've got to admit... in the middle of all the madness I do get some good debates going!!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

big head


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

michaela290497 said:


> me to but after alot of research i have found a few people that are still docking the tails,
> One of which all her rotty's are show dogs and she hasn't been told she isn't allowed to dock them?


Not only is she not allowed to dock them, but could face a fine of up to £5,000 if she is found to have done it after the April cut off date.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I am utterly appalled that any genuine dog lover would support the docking of tails, and it saddens me to see the results of said poll! I can only assume that the supporters of this barbaric procedure are breeders.

Tails are docked either by banding where a ligature is placed over the end of the tail which comes away after 3 days, or by cutting off with surgical scissors. Where tails are cut off, stitches may be needed for larger breeds. 
The procedure is usually performed without any anaesthetic (which would be too dangerous) at between three to five days of age. Complications in docking can lead to the death of the puppy and the tail stump may be painful in later life due to the formation of scar tissue.

It is pure mutilation. Tails are a vital form of communication. They also act as a counterbalance when running, walking and squatting to defecate. The majority of veterinary surgeons (over 90%), no longer dock tails and even students are no longer taught to dock tails.

Cosmetic docking is a procedure that enables dog to conform to breed standard, and there is NO scientific evidence to support the theory that undocked working dogs damage their tails anymore than non working dogs. The BVA therefore sees no justification for an exemption for working dogs.


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## noubi (Nov 20, 2007)

Nina i agree with you completely, i too cant believe how many so called dog lovers on here agree with docking, it was started origionally to evade paying taxes on working dogs not to stop any possible injury or for showing, it is unecessary and barbaric.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I can only assume the votes for docking are from breeders, or those misguided people who work dogs from the breeds affected.

I am hoping however, that the vote changes dramatically, otherwise I rather think I will lose my faith in human nature!


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

Dont like tail docking, only reason it if it is for a genuine medical reason.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

i think they look better docked, and working dogs i think should be docked if the owners want it done,


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## plumo72 (Nov 2, 2007)

Nina Cole said:


> I am utterly appalled that any genuine dog lover would support the docking of tails, and it saddens me to see the results of said poll! I can only assume that the supporters of this barbaric procedure are breeders.
> 
> Tails are docked either by banding where a ligature is placed over the end of the tail which comes away after 3 days, or by cutting off with surgical scissors. Where tails are cut off, stitches may be needed for larger breeds.
> The procedure is usually performed without any anaesthetic (which would be too dangerous) at between three to five days of age. Complications in docking can lead to the death of the puppy and the tail stump may be painful in later life due to the formation of scar tissue.
> ...


i agree i really don't like docking


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## BredaKim (Nov 10, 2007)

I would personally never allow my pup to have their tails docked. I used to have a cocker spaniel and was asked if I was going to have his tail docked...to which my reply was a definate NO!


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

i am not a breeder, even tho i have bred 2 great quality litters of bloodline bred dogs in the past, and im not a misguided person from breeds affected by this, im just a normal everyday person who does not disapprove of tail docking, simple as that.
im a big animal lover an would not see no harm come to any animal but i trufully think that if done by a pro that there is nothing wrong with it.
so plz dont say that coz we aggree wiv tail docking that we are in the wrong and dont care about animals, coz believe me, I DO.

if you read some of the post about why some of the people on here agree with tail docking then all i can say to those who disapprove of it after reading that is that they are just as bad as people who do agree with it, coz at the end of the day we all have our views on why we should and shouldnt dock tails, and both sides think our reasons why we should or shouldnt dock tails are the right reasons lol


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Im with Loe on this one.

I would want a docked boxer, first and fore most for the welfare of the dog, i.e. boxer, aggressive wag + thick and strong tail = plenty of damage and stress on the dog. surgery etc. 

Also for the standard of the breed. Boxer with tails in America are penalized heavily at shows. Yes breeders do it more for the cosmetic reasons but me personally I'm thinking of the future of the dog.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

I have owned a docked breed (Rottweilers) for 30 years now. I lost my last old girl at 11 and a half in sept she was such a darling.
In all that time
No puppy has died
There have been no painful stumps.
None have had problems with balance (If kept fit a Rott can turn on a sixpence)
None of my dogs have had problems communicating with other dogs,running, walking or defecating. They have been well adjusted and well socialised dogs.
The anti-docking brigade always refere to docking as mutilation and yet promote early spaying and castration. Is this not a form of mutilation as well?
Don't get me wrong I own 3 speyed bitches myself and if the majority of people want a ban on docking then thats fair enough but to say that anyone who agrees with docking is cruel and does not love animals is ridiculous. Those who shout the loudest have never seen a puppy being docked.
I love all animals and love my dogs with a passion. I prefere dogs to humans.
They would risk their lives for me as I would for them.


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

I dont believe that the large percentage of breeders out there who have their litters docked are cruel, I think they love their pets and just do what they think is right by their pets. 
However there is a small minority of people who do not do tail docking the right way and the pups suffer it is these people who should be targeted and held accountable by law. 

My friend went to see a litter of rotties and they were not in a very good way and their stumps were infected she reported them and the pups were confiscated but they did not face charges as there was not enough evidence and they are still breeding.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2007)

vixenelite said:


> I dont believe that the large percentage of breeders out there who have their litters docked are cruel, I think they love their pets and just do what they think is right by their pets.
> However there is a small minority of people who do not do tail docking the right way and the pups suffer it is these people who should be targeted and held accountable by law.
> 
> My friend went to see a litter of rotties and they were not in a very good way and their stumps were infected she reported them and the pups were confiscated but they did not face charges as there was not enough evidence and they are still breeding.


Yes you always get the idiots who have no regard for the welfare of the pups they produce and then give all breeders a bad name. I once had someone approach me after the docking by lay persons was banned and asked me to dock a litter of pups for them . I refused and gave him the no of the council of docked breeds who would give him the name of a vet prepared to dock. I later discovered that he had tried to do it himself with a razor blade and all 10 pups died! I was heartbroken, I regreted saying no because if I had done it for him at least they would not have suffered and died.
He was reported and prosecuted but just received a fine and a 12 month ban not much of a deterent and no where near the correct punishment for taking the lives of those poor innocent pups.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2007)

such a shame .

magik.. u started this debate, what are your views on tail docking?


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## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

such a horrible way to go the poor things, but you had no idea that he would go and do do such a thing.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

How exactly do you mean, for the welfare of the dog? I found this astounding! Tails are a vital form of communication for dogs. Veterinary surgeons state that this is a barbaric practise. It is mutilation pure and simple, yet you feel that tail docking is for the welfare of the dog! 

Perhaps you could explain please.


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Not all veterinary surgeons state this is a barbaric practise. Sweeping generalisation.
And it is not a barbaric. 
View tail docking film, buy on DVD
Your probably going to be waiting for the moment when the docker gets the knife out and starts to barbarically mutilate all these little puppys...but it never happens.

Gee I wish some of you guys were as passionate about human abuse.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2007)

loe said:


> such a shame .
> 
> magik.. u started this debate, what are your views on tail docking?


I voted on the fence as I'm not educated on all the facts on tail docking! I have heard that breeds such as boxers have been known to damage their tales through their active nature but I dont know how true that is?

I certainly dont think we have a right to mutilate an animal for cosmetic reason only! They were born with it for a reason - but as I said I'm on the fence on this one!


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## petbone (Nov 21, 2007)

Hi guys its ileagle to dock in Australia, it is a bit barbaric, but then again we do secumcision
Pet Transport Logistics


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2007)

petbone said:


> secumcision


circumcision is indeed barbaric


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Do you honestly think that your dog would want his only form of communication taken away, just because you think it looks more pleasing to the eye! 

I am astounded at this poll and extremely dissapointed, since I honestly believed that any animal lover would be campaigning to ban this barbaric practise!

The following is copied from the RSPCA site-

A new MORI poll also shows that just eight per cent of the British public supports the docking of dogs tails for cosmetic reasons, while 75 per cent oppose the practice.

The British Veterinary Association (BVA), the British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA) and the RSPCA are today urging Parliament to take notice of the public and of those who dedicate their lives to alleviate animal suffering  and ban this mutilation through the Animal Welfare Bill.

Docking involves cutting or crushing a puppys skin, muscles, up to seven pairs of nerves, and bone and cartilage  and is performed without anaesthetic when pups are just three to five days old. At this age they can feel pain, and research indicates they do so at a greater intensity than adult dogs because the ability to suppress pain develops with age and experience.

Currently the law only allows vets to perform this abhorrent amputation. The irony is that vets are united in their opposition to non-therapeutic tail docking of dogs, says TV vet Emma Milne, who appeared in the BBCs Vets in Practice.


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Taking all your quotes and info from anti organisations is pointless.
That Mori poll probably only sampled something like a couple of hundred people and that is not enough to represent the population.
Probably mostly inner city people who would be anti, plenty of farmers in the country would be pro.
Get some information from non-subjective sources.

Puppies don't feel the pain, they havent developed the nervous pain system. 
Not many animals eat when in pain...
Ever seen a puppy not feed due to having a tail docked?

I don't believe the tail is the only way of communication.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I genuinely feel sickened having read some of these posts supporting tail docking. It seems that despite animal welfare organisations, and the support of veterinary surgeons, and given the chance, the dogs themselves, some people still support it!

I only wish that dogs could talk! But then I doubt their pleas to remain intact would make any difference!


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## noubi (Nov 20, 2007)

colacooler said:


> Taking all your quotes and info from anti organisations is pointless.
> That Mori poll probably only sampled something like a couple of hundred people and that is not enough to represent the population.
> Probably mostly inner city people who would be anti, plenty of farmers in the country would be pro.
> Get some information from non-subjective sources.
> ...


you really are talking crap, i have had first hand experience with this where a very good friend of mine had a litter docked (against any opinion of mine) everyone screamed they all got infections and the mother rejected them, brilliant start in life


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Did a vet dock them?


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

One experience for all is it?I talk crap on the basis of your 1 first hand experience. Very narrow minded indeed.I hope you don;t base your opinions on life in the same way.

Sounds like the vet/your friend seriously messed it up i.e. cut it very short in length and probably did it after the pupps were 2 - 3 days old.


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## petforum (Oct 30, 2007)

Obviously on topics such as this there are people who are for it and against and neither party will change their views based on what the other people think. I think its just best to accept that people have different views on different subjects based on their own personal experiences 

I dont really want people to start arguing in this thread.

Mark
Pet Forums Administrator


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2007)

Mark is right.. debate is healthy but people shouldn't be arguing! We all have different views and we should respect those views of eachother. Dont get personal!


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Yup debates like this are personal, and can turn into arguing pretty quickly.

Anti-dockers got their ban, so they can be pleased. I hope all lay by dockers get fined as punished etc as it is illegal here in the UK so should be respected.

Where it is legal I will still support a breeders/owners right to dock.


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## noubi (Nov 20, 2007)

Debbie said:


> Did a vet dock them?


yes it was done by a vet


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2007)

then that vet needs to be sacked..end off.


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## Debbie (Nov 10, 2007)

Agreed with Loe on that one - they deserved the sack.
Did your friend report the vet?
Seen as Vets can and will dock working dogs then they should be doing it the right way!!!! Anyone who is not happy with the dock on their own dogs should report them!
The pain caused to the little ones was solely due to the vet carrying out the procedure wrongly.


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Yup absolutely terrible conduct by that Vet. Depends on whether the owner was truthful on how old the pupps were but that aside the vet should know all about docking, and if one pupp was hurting then something is WRONG,


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## BredaKim (Nov 10, 2007)

I watched the video clip that was posted futher back, and while they pups may have shown no sign of pain (they we know of) nor did they show any signs of 'happiness'...how do 'WE KNOW' one way or the other if they are indeed capable of 'showing' either emotion at such a young age?
I mean....they hardly 'wagged their tails' to say the enjoyed it did they? 


Breda


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## noubi (Nov 20, 2007)

colacooler said:


> Yup absolutely terrible conduct by that Vet. Depends on whether the owner was truthful on how old the pupps were but that aside the vet should know all about docking, and if one pupp was hurting then something is WRONG,


the pups were 2 days old, she didnt report the vet but vowed never to put a dog through it again but the law has changed now anyway so not an issue for Rotties


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

If only dogs could talk, perhaps their owners would take note!


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

No dog is 'meant' to have their tail docked. A dog's tail is a valuble means of communication to them and it is mutilation to remove it unneccessarily. It's illegal and there are few "working" dogs with real reason for tail docking. It should be banned full stop.


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

BredaKim said:


> I watched the video clip that was posted futher back, and while they pups may have shown no sign of pain (they we know of) nor did they show any signs of 'happiness'...how do 'WE KNOW' one way or the other if they are indeed capable of 'showing' either emotion at such a young age?
> I mean....they hardly 'wagged their tails' to say the enjoyed it did they?
> 
> Breda


Just because an animal does not 'show signs' of pain that we can distinguish doesn't mean they don't feel it. Cats do not show signs of pain most of the time. 2 day old puppies have nervous systems, therefore pain.


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## BredaKim (Nov 10, 2007)

Dawny said:


> Just because an animal does not 'show signs' of pain that we can distinguish doesn't mean they don't feel it. Cats do not show signs of pain most of the time. 2 day old puppies have nervous systems, therefore pain.


My point exactly...that's what I was trying to say...how do we KNOW it doesn't hurt if they can't 'show' it??


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## Lotsofsmoggies (Nov 26, 2007)

I had a Springer from working stock who had a quarter docked tail which I think was fine. I've seen Boxers, Dobies, Rotties, Cockers and Old English with tails it makes the out line so different, some dogs it suits to have a tail others it doesn't. It's cosmetic though nothing is more important than temperment.


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## Victoria311617 (Nov 28, 2007)

its each to their own as with everything some people like it some people dont but surely it should not have been made illegal it should have left to our better judgement you know and to the breeders discretion. Like has already been said if it is done by a professional at the right time then i personally dont see a problem yet again its just another way of crushing our human rights as pet owners to do something that has been done for centuries. Have you ever heard a boxer,rottie or even a docked cat complain about their missing tail no because sometimes they do more harm than good and if they grow up without one then they dont know any different and adapt accordingly! WAY TO GO AGAIN YET ANOTHER WAY TO TO STOP FREEDOM OF CHOICE!


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

No I have never heard an animal complain. That's because they don't speak human. They cannot properly communicate. It's common sense that its wrong! It's chopping something off an animal unecessarily. Why? So they "look nicer"? They don't. People are just so used to seeing docked dogs thats all. It's snobbery. Love your dog for its personality, not the way it looks. Human rights? Humans have no rights to go messing with nature with no real reason. What about the dog's rights? He can't complain but he definitely can't tell you he's happy...


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## Victoria311617 (Nov 28, 2007)

Of course they can complain they dont have to speak human they have other ways of letting us know when they are in pain or feeling unwell it up to us as humans and pet owners to read the signs and try do do whats right if it hurt them they would show signs of pain ie make noise or move away. Its instinctive for animals aswell as humans after all we all have feelings. However no i dont beleive it should be done just for the look of the breed but for health reasons or other legitimate ones if anyone can come up with any, whatim saying is it should have left to our better judgement and not have been made illegal its been done for centuries and throughout history dogs with docked tails have led happy,long and healthy lives. Like i said it just another way to take choices from us!


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

It is not illegal to do it for health reasons... and why would a breeder dock a litter of pups for health reasons?? I'm not saying they would be in pain from having no tail, they just can't communicate therefore would become confused. It's just wrong. No one is taking our choice away because it shouldn't be our choice. Anyway it's banned and thats that. Also animals don't always show signs of pain. A man once brought a kitten into my practice with a twig stuck through its eye, he had waited 3 days to bring it in claiming it wasn't in pain because it hadn't meowed.... sure. Anyway I know that was a cat, but people seem to forget pets are not human and they communicate a lot differently to us.


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## Victoria311617 (Nov 28, 2007)

Of course they comunicate in different ways to us but it is up to us as their owners and carers to interpret what they are trying to convey, and with the greatest will in the world the man who owned that cat should be banned from having pets all together since it took him 3 days to take it to a vet. It should have been obvious to him that cats are not supposed to have twigs sticking out of their eyes that is common sense. So the cat didnt meow it will have shown other signs of discombfort. I have held a degree in animal psycology for the last 4 years and so learnt this as a basic on the course. And humans are supposed to be the most intelligent things on the planet according to some i am begining to question this!


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

What about dew claws,I don't think anyone has brought this up.

The removal of dew claws is to stop future injury, I support this also.

I wonder what the anti-dockers group think of this.


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## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

I believe that its fine to remove deformed dew claws, such as those that do not grow bones and can therefore be very easily damaged but normal dew claws, no I think that's wrong. It's stupid to remove a body part because it 'might' get damaged. An animal could damage any part of their body.


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## avril (Mar 31, 2008)

i have two rotti's diesel and shadow and both have docked tails i also have a litter of six puppies without docked tails and i have to say whilst they are puppies the look quiet cute but seeing a fully grown rotti with tail the other day it looked wrong i would of had my litter docked if i could most vets now do it by laser befor a week old as its less painfull then and far better for the breed to be docked.


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## estalearottweilers (Mar 30, 2008)

have to say i like rotts with tails makes no odds to me does not change the breed as a whole just got a added extra


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I will have my first litter of welsh springers with tails this year BUT will not be selling any for working I have seen first hand the damage done to tails in the field and so I have decided that if they have to have tails they will NOT be working dogs


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

tashi said:


> I will have my first litter of welsh springers with tails this year BUT will not be selling any for working I have seen first hand the damage done to tails in the field and so I have decided that if they have to have tails they will NOT be working dogs


If they are going to be working dogs cant you still have them docked Tashi??


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Jo P said:


> If they are going to be working dogs cant you still have them docked Tashi??


You can but you have to have a gun license and prove that you are going to work them - who knows if a 3 day old pup is going to be the one that isnt going to be gun shy!!! In some ways it is a damn stupid legislation and I know that some people on here do not agree with me but I used to groom a working springer that had a long tail and bless her heart she used to damage it so badly that in the end she had to have it amputated but it was too far gone and she ended up with gangrene in the spine and had to be pts  dont get me wrong I havent got a problem with tails BUT there has to be limits


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## minnie (Feb 14, 2008)

our springer had her tail amputated poor thing she got it stuck while working and literaly tore it in half


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

minnie said:


> our springer had her tail amputated poor thing she got it stuck while working and literaly tore it in half


Poor girl I just wish I had photographed the poor girl that I used to groom bless her she was a real sweetheart and used to look forward to coming in for her wash and brush up was sickened that her life had to end that way


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

tashi said:


> You can but you have to have a gun license and prove that you are going to work them - who knows if a 3 day old pup is going to be the one that isnt going to be gun shy!!! In some ways it is a damn stupid legislation and I know that some people on here do not agree with me but I used to groom a working springer that had a long tail and bless her heart she used to damage it so badly that in the end she had to have it amputated but it was too far gone and she ended up with gangrene in the spine and had to be pts  dont get me wrong I havent got a problem with tails BUT there has to be limits


You'll have to take up shooting then!!!! I'm sure I saw a full litter that had been docked as the lady was going to keep one - and as you say how can you tell which one will make the grade - so perhaps you are allowed to dock the whole litter - unless I'm being naive - it wont be the first time


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Jo P said:


> You'll have to take up shooting then!!!! I'm sure I saw a full litter that had been docked as the lady was going to keep one - and as you say how can you tell which one will make the grade - so perhaps you are allowed to dock the whole litter - unless I'm being naive - it wont be the first time


You can I suppose Jo but if they are docked you will never be able to show them at Crufts so gone are the 'so called' dual purpose gundog as if you work them ideally you would want them docked but then you cannot exhibit them where the public pay an entrance fee!


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## minnie (Feb 14, 2008)

i was told that if they were working with a docked tail they could still be shown? or is that just terriers or something?


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I thought you could still show a proven working dog???????? 

*Goes off to investigate further*


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

minnie said:


> i was told that if they were working with a docked tail they could still be shown? or is that just terriers or something?


nope they can only be shown if they were docked after the dates if the public dont pay an entrance fee to go into the show


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Jo P said:


> I thought you could still show a proven working dog????????
> 
> *Goes off to investigate further*


only if was docked before the dates or if the public dont pay to get into the show


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## minnie (Feb 14, 2008)

i'm off to have a large argument with my vet then


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Here ya go Tashi - you can still show proven working dogs that are docked - I thought I hadnt quite gone round the bend

http://www.cdb.org/awa/Tail Docking and the puppy you have purchased.pdf


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Jo P said:


> Here ya go Tashi - you can still show proven working dogs that are docked - I thought I hadnt quite gone round the bend
> 
> http://www.cdb.org/awa/Tail Docking and the puppy you have purchased.pdf


yes but that is only to show the working ability not to 'show' them


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## catzndogz (Mar 12, 2008)

i have had working spaniels all my life they all had docked tails up to my last springer who was a rescued from SYESSR and she had a long tail we had her for 11 years from 18 months until we lost her to cancer last june. 
she was always getting it caught when the woods, but after a bath & a brush it always looked nice.
the 2 springers i,ve now rescued both have docked tails. 

we have a dog in the rescue waiting to be rehomed had a undocked tail when brought by his owners then they changed they minds and tried to dock his tail them selfs. which then caused great sufering for the dog which has left him with no control over his motion's. which means no one wants to rehome him has he'll always to live outside.

so i'm all for the banning of tail docking.


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## JA12 (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm sort of on the fence about tail docking as long as it's done by a professional and when the pup is first born. Working dogs often fare better without their tails to get caught in brambles and other such nasties.

What I am 100% against is ear cropping. There is no justification - ever - of doing this, it is purely cosmetic, cruel and inhumane.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

i still say it should be up to the owner


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm on the fence with this one - but I have to say, after reading some of the statements in here its made me change some of the ways I used to think. 
Great Thread!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I make no apologies at all for my remarks on this subject, since it is animal cruelty for the reasons that I have outlined previously.

It has nothing to do with opinions at all, it is fact, which has now been made law.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Sorry, I thought that I should copy over my remarks from the previous thread. So here goes.

I was both saddened and dismayed to read the poll on tail docking, since it appears that some people still believe that this barbaric practice should remain.

I know that I have been accused of pushing my opinion in the past, but this is NOT opinion, it is fact, now backed up by law.

Banding, is when a ligature is placed over the end of the puppies tail, which comes away after 3 days, or removing with scissors. This procedure is performed without anesthetic since it is too harmful to puppies. Since scientific evidence states that a puppies nervous system is fully developed, it therefore will experience severe pain and distress. In severe cases infection can lead to death.

Pro dockers state that tails would be removed to maintain breed standard or to avoid tail damage. Perhaps a pro docker could explain why Retrievers and Setters (both working dogs), who are bred to hunt throughout all kinds of terrain, are allowed to keep their tails? What of breed standard. Is is right that we should make the decision to dock a tail because we feel it is more pleasing to our eyes! 

Tails are a VITAL form of communication. Used to denote moods such as excitement, fear etc. Docking was also associated with numerous heath problems such as incontinence in bitches where muscles that help control urination are weakened. 

This is NOT opinion, this is fact, hence it is now illegal. I cannot understand how anyone who purports to love animals can condone this form of cruelty.


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## minnie (Feb 14, 2008)

not docking retreivers tails has always confused me. docking purely for breed standard is a load of rubbish as there is just no point in it and shouldn't breed standard be how the dog looks naturaly?


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Sorry, I thought that I should copy over my remarks from the previous thread. So here goes.
> 
> I was both saddened and dismayed to read the poll on tail docking, since it appears that some people still believe that this barbaric practice should remain.
> 
> ...


In all honesty Nina, no-one gives a monkeys what you say. People have different opinions on the matter and thats that!
Do you honestly think anyone is worried that you are saddened or dismayed by the poll!?
The idea is to say your opinion on the matter, not ram it down peoples throats!
I think you get a bit above your station at times.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> In all honesty Nina, no-one gives a monkeys what you say. People have different opinions on the matter and thats that!
> Do you honestly think anyone is worried that you are saddened or dismayed by the poll!?
> The idea is to say your opinion on the matter, not ram it down peoples throats!
> I think you get a bit above your station at times.


agreed..


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> I make no apologies at all for my remarks on this subject, since it is animal cruelty for the reasons that I have outlined previously.
> 
> It has nothing to do with opinions at all, it is fact, which has now been made law.


It's about time you said something more controversial! 

*However, just because something is law doesn't make it fact!*

People still have a right to an opinion even if it is that the law is wrong!

I am for tail docking for working dogs where it will be of benefit, but I don't think certain breeds should be docked just for looks. If they are just for a pet, they should keep their tail whatever the breed.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

im against it but thats my opinion right or wrong ive said it n wont agrue or push it its just how i feel


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Sorry, I thought that I should copy over my remarks from the previous thread. So here goes.
> 
> I was both saddened and dismayed to read the poll on tail docking, since it appears that some people still believe that this barbaric practice should remain.
> 
> ...


No disrepect Nina but it sounds to me like you like the sound of your own voice!
ANd because its law don't necessarily make it right ,does it i have allways thought that most working dogs ,that work in feilds etc etc was better off without the tail ,for there own safty!?


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> No disrepect Nina but it sounds to me like you like the sound of your own voice!
> ANd because its law don't necessarily make it right ,does it i have allways thought that most working dogs ,that work in feilds etc etc was better off without the tail ,for there own safty!?


Totally agree with that 

But I don't think it should be up to the owner, I don't think there is any need to dock the tail of a pet so it should only be allowed for working dogs! I thought that was the law anyway! Obviously I was wrong!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> No disrepect Nina but it sounds to me like you like the sound of your own voice!
> ANd because its law don't necessarily make it right ,does it i have allways thought that most working dogs ,that work in feilds etc etc was better off without the tail ,for there own safty!?


i must agree that just cos its law doesnt make it right! there are lots of laws that dont make sense or are incorrect or out of date....UK weird laws - Fun Facts


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> In all honesty Nina, no-one gives a monkeys what you say. People have different opinions on the matter and thats that!
> Do you honestly think anyone is worried that you are saddened or dismayed by the poll!?
> The idea is to say your opinion on the matter, not ram it down peoples throats!
> I think you get a bit above your station at times.


you took the words right from my mouth


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

Im all for abiding by the law, however we all know that the law isnt always right.....

For example:

_In the UK, a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere she wants  even, if she so requests, in a policemans helmet. _

Can you imagine that?? 

I saw a litter of Rottie pups a while back who were in the process of having their tails docked by banding (I think thats what it's called) and they looked to be happy playful pups. I dont pretend to know much about this, but I agree with the fact you dont change peoples opinions on things you feel strongly about by being forceful or rude. Mature discussions always work best


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Sorry, I thought that I should copy over my remarks from the previous thread. So here goes.
> 
> I was both saddened and dismayed to read the poll on tail docking, since it appears that some people still believe that this barbaric practice should remain.
> 
> ...


Retrievers and Labs work differently to spaniels who go through brambles and bracken to flush game.
What I think is cruel is those dogs that are worked allowed to keep their tails and badly damage them whilst doing their job,only for them to be removed under a GA,this could have been prevented.

I don't own a docked breed so therefore this ban does not affect us,but I don't support the ban,nor do I support the fox hunting ban.
Don't the government have more important matters to be dealing with like immigration,instead of interrferring with normal day to day life


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> so how do you feel about new born baby's being sermonized in the name of religion then??? as all Jewish males are when there a new born ! how do you feel about that then NINA?????


 as acording to you even this would be cruel!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> What I think is cruel is those dogs that are worked allowed to keep their tails and badly damage them whilst doing their job,only for them to be removed under a GA,this could have been prevented.


Agreed! If it saves the dog injuring itself while doing its job I'm all for it!


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

It would seem tha Nina has her wires crossed here.
It is not law because it is cruelty to animals, if it were it would also apply to the working dogs that are exempt!
Are you saying that the law is allowing cruelty to those specific dogs Nina?
If so you should make a point of writing to your MP about this!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> It would seem tha Nina has her wires crossed here.
> It is not law because it is cruelty to animals, if it were it would also apply to the working dogs that are exempt!
> Are you saying that the law is allowing cruelty to those specific dogs Nina?
> If so you should make a point of writing to your MP about this!


dont encourage her


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

garryd said:


> dont encourage her


I just think for someone so opinionated she has double standards sometimes.
I dont understand how someone can be so against tail docking yet doesnt mind the use of e-collars.
Its like a strict vegetarian wearing leather shoes to me 
Just my view on it of course 

What about microchipping Nina?
Some of the dogs I have chipped have screamed their bloody heads off!
It couldnt be because it tickled, so is this cruelty aswell? This does cause pain!


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

There are some lovely people on this forum, and I have until now, very much enjoyed the debate, especially you Alan, whom I shall miss. Also cupcake and the various people who bring animal abuse to our attention.

I have worked with animals for most of my adult life, and actively campaign against all forms of abuse, be it animals, children or people.

I have found of late, that this forum is getting extremely personal, and for this reason I do not feel that I want to continue offering advice or my opinion. 

I have never purported to be an expert on dog behaviour, and have only ever tried to pass on what I have learned, for the benefit of others. To be accused of being self opinionated, and I believe 'up myself' is enough for me to bow out now.

I wish this forum all the luck in the world, and may pop by every now and then, to pick up on animal abuse stories.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> There are some lovely people on this forum, and I have until now, very much enjoyed the debate, especially you Alan, whom I shall miss. Also cupcake and the various people who bring animal abuse to our attention.
> 
> I have worked with animals for most of my adult life, and actively campaign against all forms of abuse, be it animals, children or people.
> 
> ...


Nina i realy do respect your opinion ,but you sometimes come across a little to full on besides with just 247 post Nina you dont come on here that much anyhow
I think your over reacting and need to take a deep breathe mate


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Come on guys lets not make it personal! We're all here for the same reasons! We're all animal lovers, just because our views differ lets not get carried away and make it personal!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Come on guys lets not make it personal! We're all here for the same reasons! We're all animal lovers, just because our views differ lets not get carried away and make it personal!


i have never made any personal comment nore read any why have you alan????


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> i have never made any personal comment nore read any why have you alan????


Not recently  Some of the comments are a bit personal in my opinion and if Nina feels she has to leave the forum I don't think thats good!


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

garryd said:


> Nina i realy do respect your opinion ,but you sometimes come across a little to full on besides with just 247 post Nina you dont come on here that much anyhow
> I think your over reacting and need to take a deep breathe mate


I dont have many posts either. Does it make a difference??  I work full time and have to cater to a hopeless husband  so i dont get alot of time to sit and post - shouldnt make a difference though should it?????


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Like Nina, I wont back down either, I stick to my opinion and everything ive said.
But Nina I do hope your not leaving because there are few who agree with you on this one! 
That would just be cutting off your nose to spite your face.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> Nina I do hope your not leaving because there are few who agree with you on this one!
> That would just be cutting off your nose to spite your face.


Exactly!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Lisa M said:


> I dont have many posts either. Does it make a difference??  I work full time and have to cater to a hopeless husband  so i dont get alot of time to sit and post - shouldnt make a difference though should it?????


i was just pointing out that she doesnt come on alot any how?? i personaly HAVE NEVER ROWED with her and like i said do repect her opinion! But she has rowed with a couple of other members over the last few days 
It is a forum and we all have opinions ,because i may not agree with alot of opinions on here shouldent make me wanna run for cover ! should it !
And if some bodys is gonna have a very strong opinion ,like Nina,and give it,then he or she should be prepaired for counter opinions! 
It is a forum after all


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

garryd said:


> i was just pointing out that she doesnt come on alot any how?? i personaly HAVE NEVER ROWED with her and like i said do repect her opinion! But she has rowed with a couple of other members over the last few days
> It is a forum and we all have opinions ,because i may not agree with alot of opinions on here shouldent make me wanna run for cover ! should it !
> And if some bodys is gonna have a very strong opinion ,like Nina,and give it,then he or she should be prepaired for counter opinions!
> It is a forum after all


Fair enough  I agree with that!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> i was just pointing out that she doesnt come on alot any how?? i personaly HAVE NEVER ROWED with her and like i said do repect her opinion! But she has rowed with a couple of other members over the last few days
> It is a forum and we all have opinions ,because i may not agree with alot of opinions on here shouldent make me wanna run for cover ! should it !
> And if some bodys is gonna have a very strong opinion ,like Nina,and give it,then he or she should be prepaired for counter opinions!
> It is a forum after all


ps i dont realy care to much weather we doc tails or not


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

.......Haha!


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

The good thing about this forum is that there are lots of different people with varying views on different topics, things are bound to get a bit heated at times, but I don't see that as any reason to not come on anymore.


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## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> The good thing about this forum is that there are lots of different people with varying views on different topics, things are bound to get a bit heated at times, but I don't see that as any reason to not come on anymore.


Me neither but I have the feeling its more to do with the fact that we didnt all agree with her and wernt all converted to her way of thinking.
Like you say, there are many different opinions and there arent many of us that want to be TOLD something is wrong regardless of our own personal views on the subject.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

bullbreeds said:


> Me neither but I have the feeling its more to do with the fact that we didnt all agree with her and wernt all converted to her way of thinking.
> Like you say, there are many different opinions and there arent many of us that want to be TOLD something is wrong regardless of our own personal views on the subject.


so true, we all have our reasons for our views.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> i was just pointing out that she doesnt come on alot any how?? i personaly HAVE NEVER ROWED with her and like i said do repect her opinion! But she has rowed with a couple of other members over the last few days
> It is a forum and we all have opinions ,because i may not agree with alot of opinions on here shouldent make me wanna run for cover ! should it !
> And if some bodys is gonna have a very strong opinion ,like Nina,and give it,then he or she should be prepaired for counter opinions!
> It is a forum after all





Jenny Olley said:


> The good thing about this forum is that there are lots of different people with varying views on different topics, things are bound to get a bit heated at times, but I don't see that as any reason to not come on anymore.


thats what i was saying above jenny if your gonna come on and have a strong opinion ,then be prepaired for the same in return! With a strong opinion you cant be to sensitive can ya!


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

This is true, for every opinion, someone is bound to have a strong opposing opinion, that is actually the fun and the point of this form (I thought), but maybe I am wrong.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> This is true, for every opinion, someone is bound to have a strong opposing opinion, that is actually the fun and the point of this form (I thought), but maybe I am wrong.


i think your spot onthey say great minds think alike


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Nina Cole said:


> Sorry, I thought that I should copy over my remarks from the previous thread. So here goes.
> 
> I was both saddened and dismayed to read the poll on tail docking, since it appears that some people still believe that this barbaric practice should remain.
> 
> ...


Firstly retrievers and setters have a different job of work in the field spaniels work by flushing through the undergrowth!!!!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

this is one of the 'nicer' photos of an undocked spaniel after a day in the field








The one that I used to groom used to be a damn sight worse that this and ended up dead because of it - is that not cruelty.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

tashi said:


> this is one of the 'nicer' photos of an undocked spaniel after a day in the field
> View attachment 3255
> 
> 
> The one that I used to groom used to be a damn sight worse that this and ended up dead because of it - is that not cruelty.


 gee that does look nasty i see what you mean tashi!


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

this one looks pretty bad also


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I haven't read all the posts but I don't agree with tail docking.

A dog uses its tail for balance.

I have heard arguments in the past regarding working dogs can get their tails caught. Lets take a look at some of the original working breeds: -

Rottweilers Guarding/Security the type of work is similar to the Akita.

Dobermann, Guarding/Security the type of work is similar to the GSD.

Spaniels, Gundogs the type of work is similar to Golden Retrievers.

JRT, ratting/small mammal hunting type of work is similar to Dachshunds. 

I love to see a happy waggy tail.

Where is your argument? I've already ducked 


Sue


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

sskmick said:


> I haven't read all the posts but I don't agree with tail docking.
> 
> A dog uses its tail for balance.
> 
> ...


Sue, if you read through the posts and look at the pics, I think you will see where the pro-dockers arguements are coming from. I don't work in the field with gundogs, so I don't think I have a right to an opinion, neither do I own any breeds that would have been docked.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> Sue, if you read through the posts and look at the pics, I think you will see where the pro-dockers arguements are coming from. I don't work in the field with gundogs, so I don't think I have a right to an opinion, neither do I own any breeds that would have been docked.


another very good point


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> thats what i was saying above jenny if your gonna come on and have a strong opinion ,then be prepaired for the same in return! With a strong opinion you cant be to sensitive can ya!


Nope you can't, agree totally! 



Jenny Olley said:


> This is true, for every opinion, someone is bound to have a strong opposing opinion, that is actually the fun and the point of this form (I thought), but maybe I am wrong.


I think that's part of the fun and it helps to educate yourself to be open to and take onboard other peoples opinions, I've learnt alot from this forum and it's changed my opinions on some things and helped me form a opinion on many others that I had never even thought about before! 



tashi said:


> Firstly retrievers and setters have a different job of work in the field spaniels work by flushing through the undergrowth!!!!


I'm getting sick of reading that, wish people would read through the posts before posting themselves so people didn't have to keep repeating things!!!! 



tashi said:


> The one that I used to groom used to be a damn sight worse that this and ended up dead because of it - is that not cruelty.


Yes it is, that's why I think certain working dogs should have their tails docked!


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> Sue, if you read through the posts and look at the pics, I think you will see where the pro-dockers arguements are coming from. I don't work in the field with gundogs, so I don't think I have a right to an opinion, neither do I own any breeds that would have been docked.


Cheers I have now read through these posts and I do understand that gundogs work types are different. Apologies.

I have also seen posts that state docking isn't painful, well I beg to differ the pups were screaming and it was done at the vets. People obviously have had different experiences.

I still think docking is wrong and it really doesn't matter what our personal opinions are on this, it sounds as though it has been banned.

Not sure whether the ban includes actual working dogs. I have seen posts where they can't be shown unless its a non-entrance fee event.

Sue


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

sskmick said:


> Cheers I have now read through these posts and I do understand that gundogs work types are different. Apologies.
> 
> I have also seen posts that state docking isn't painful, well I beg to differ the pups were screaming and it was done at the vets. People obviously have had different experiences.
> 
> ...


You can still have them docked if you hold a gun license eg if you are a gamekeeper you can have them docked by a vet.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

you can get a working dog dock but you have to prove that the dog is for working and have all the right paperwork, then it gets aproved then you can get the docking done.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Whilst it is a very explosive subject I think that everyone is entitled to their opinion without being put down for it - I for one grew up in a very field sport orientated household but do not try to ram my view down everybody elses throats - I do not agree with some of the practices on some of the other posts on here and chose not to post on them because I do not want to be argumentative and I felt that this had run its time in the original poll started by Magik, it should never have reared its ugly head again in a new post.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

carol said:


> you can get a working dog dock but you have to prove that the dog is for working and have all the right paperwork, then it gets aproved then you can get the docking done.


do you get to keep the old bit of tail???


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

lol hang it from your car window


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

carol said:


> lol hang it from your car window


or a keyring carolPMSL


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Well as someone who actually owns a docked breed I feel I should comment. Personally - yes personally - that means ME!!! My opinion is this - I much prefer the look of a docked Rottweiler - regardless of the fact that mine would never work it never entered my head to have a rott with a tail on - I love the docked look. (oh and Rotts werent originally bred for working security - they are actually a herding breed)But - and its a big but - as of last year it became law that dogs can no longer be docked so whether we like it or not we'll never own another docked dog - does this mean I wouldnt own another Rott - does it hell. I absolutely love this breed and would like to think I'll always have one or two or three in my life - next time it'll just have that little bit extra

All this talking of docking, let me tell ya someone just joined a forum with an 8 month old docked bitch - so ban or no ban its still going on - only now its deffo the BYB thats doing it - and thats sooooooooo wrong


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

garryd said:


> do you get to keep the old bit of tail???





carol said:


> lol hang it from your car window


PMSL, that's twisted!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Jo P said:


> Well as someone who actually owns a docked breed I feel I should comment. Personally - yes personally - that means ME!!! My opinion is this - I much prefer the look of a docked Rottweiler - regardless of the fact that mine would never work it never entered my head to have a rott with a tail on - I love the docked look. (oh and Rotts werent originally bred for working security - they are actually a herding breed)But - and its a big but - as of last year it became law that dogs can no longer be docked so whether we like it or not we'll never own another docked dog - does this mean I wouldnt own another Rott - does it hell. I absolutely love this breed and would like to think I'll always have one or two or three in my life - next time it'll just have that little bit extra
> 
> All this talking of docking, let me tell ya someone just joined a forum with an 8 month old docked bitch - so ban or no ban its still going on - only now its deffo the BYB thats doing it - and thats sooooooooo wrong


I agree with you totally Jo and as I have already said this will be my first litter with tails and because of the 'cruelty' of putting them in a field with a tail I will not be selling to anyone who wants to work their dog, I would hate to see another dog loose its life due to having a tail, I know of someone who breeds english springers and I had a call to go and see his latest litter he has a naturally short tailed puppy in the litter that he has had to take to a vet at a couple of days old to get verification that he hasnt had the said puppy docked because of all the legislation AND he had problems selling the pup as it was 'show' strain and pet people couldnt understand how the pup had been born with a short dock.


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## carol (Nov 2, 2007)

garryd said:


> or a keyring carolPMSL


lol can put it on a hat like davy crocket lol lol lol


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2008)

carol said:


> lol can put it on a hat like davy crocket lol lol lol


yeah tahts it,king of the wild fronteir


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Well as someone who actually owns a docked breed I feel I should comment. Personally - yes personally - that means ME!!! My opinion is this - I much prefer the look of a docked Rottweiler - regardless of the fact that mine would never work it never entered my head to have a rott with a tail on - I love the docked look. (oh and Rotts werent originally bred for working security - they are actually a herding breed)But - and its a big but - as of last year it became law that dogs can no longer be docked so whether we like it or not we'll never own another docked dog - does this mean I wouldnt own another Rott - does it hell. I absolutely love this breed and would like to think I'll always have one or two or three in my life - next time it'll just have that little bit extra
> 
> All this talking of docking, let me tell ya someone just joined a forum with an 8 month old docked bitch - so ban or no ban its still going on - only now its deffo the BYB thats doing it - and thats sooooooooo wrong


I stand corrected I misinterpreted "First Used Cattle/Guard dog".

I have come accustom to the way a particular breed looks and accepted it. The first time I saw a Boxer with a tail I wasn't sure it was a Boxer.

I agree with previous posts its a question of personal choice. Some owners prefer docked tails while others like myself prefer the tail in tact.

Working dogs are a separate issue, I never understood their arguments before however I understand a little bit more now than I did.

Sue


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

I know someone near to me who has a litter of 12 week old rotties and their tails are docked!! 

As far as I know they were reported... but I dont think much happened about it...


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Lisa M said:


> I know someone near to me who has a litter of 12 week old rotties and their tails are docked!!
> 
> As far as I know they were reported... but I dont think much happened about it...


in all fairness who wants a rottie with a tail


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

garryd said:


> in all fairness who wants a rottie with a tail


Not me they look a rite site for sore eyes.

i recon if the tails are removed properly by a vet then i dont see the harm in it.

no doubt im gonna get ribbed for saying that so be4 i do ( ******** to you all ).

ty


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

garryd said:


> in all fairness who wants a rottie with a tail


ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Jo P said:


> ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


jo how long have you owned rottys?????
have both ur rottys got tails????


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

Only on my first 2 Loe - so nearly 3 years - Brian my Oh had his first one in the early '80's. Both mine are docked but my next will deffo be tailed even though i could go to NI and get a docked one if i wanted.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

here we go heres one dont look bad really 








sorry cant make it bigger no doubt daz will work his magic on it


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Jo P said:


> Only on my first 2 Loe - so nearly 3 years - Brian my Oh had his first one in the early '80's. Both mine are docked but my next will deffo be tailed even though i could go to NI and get a docked one if i wanted.


That shut me up then.

But why keep tails on a dog that looks way betta wivout them?
they look like half chats with tails .
Then again we all have our likes and dislikes  would be a funny world if we all liked the same.

im off ta put me bins out be4 they turn up . havea nce day jo and tashi 

ps...tashi i really dont think they look nice wiv tails, look at one wivout tails up against that pic.
byeeeeeeee be back soon hopefully x x x x


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

Eolabeo said:


> Not me they look a rite site for sore eyes.
> 
> i recon if the tails are removed properly by a vet then i dont see the harm in it.
> 
> ...


I think they look better docked. There are 2 docked rotties in my family.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Lisa M said:


> I think they look better docked. There are 2 docked rotties in my family.


so do I but unfortunately government rules otherwise so we are going to have to learn to live with them


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

Yep  I can cope with a tail


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Lisa M said:


> Yep  I can cope with a tail


we have breeds that are docked and undocked so having a tail is not a prob except when it interferes with a job of work so to speak


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## Lisa M (Dec 30, 2007)

Yes. I can understand that. There is a rottie on my street with a tail and although i prefer them docked - he is still a little cutie


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## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Having seen tailed boxers rottys and dobermanns in the past week, I'm so glad I don't have a tailed dog.

The boxer tail was straight up and looked bloody ridiculous. The Rotty and doberman just looked like a different dog. The dogs were still cute but it's hard to get past years of tradition. There's a reason why before the ban you couldn't show the dogs with tails because of how it looks. And now it's turned up side down.

Still setting a date to go over to NI to get my new boxer with a docked tail.

Yes ok it is cosmetic I guess, I've turned away from the meidcal side of things - stopping pain in later life - and I suppose it is cosmetic now.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> And you only like alan because he bloodywell agrees wiv ya .


But I don't!!!


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> But I don't!!!


so u think tail docking is ok if done propa????


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> so u think tail docking is ok if done propa????


Yeah for working dogs. But no for pets. I don't think it should be done just for looks only for practical reasons.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Yeah for working dogs. But no for pets. I don't think it should be done just for looks only for practical reasons.


So really ur agreeing that tails are ok to dock aslong as its done propa


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> So really ur agreeing that tails are ok to dock aslong as its done propa


Yeah if you call doing it for practical reasons propa! 

I agree that rotties, doberman etc do look better without tails but I don't think it's right to dock just for that reason.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I would just like to thank everyone who has emailed me, and to say thank you for your kind thoughts, they really were very much appreciated.

I cannot abide personal attacks and I have noticed a lot of it on this particular forum, not just with me and it really is so unnecessary.

Forums are meant to be informative, to help offer advice, and to report animal abuse, so its members can add their support. 

When you work with animals on a daily basis and see animal cruelty at close quarters, it is truly heartbreaking. So yes, I am passionate about certain subjects, but I would never make it personal.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> I would just like to thank everyone who has emailed me, and to say thank you for your kind thoughts, they really were very much appreciated.
> 
> I cannot abide personal attacks and I have noticed a lot of it on this particular forum, not just with me and it really is so unnecessary.
> 
> ...


i havent seen any personal attacks on this thread,whos atacked you ? forums are for debate the last time i looked! If you have a strong opinion and wish to give it ,then do not be surprised when its met with a counter opinion! Thats why its called a forum! get over yourself Nina everybody respects your opinion !


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Gary, your not a traffic warden are you!


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi nina, I'm sorry to hear that you've been on the recieving end of personal attacks, its not nice at all. But atleast who ever was attacking you will get their just deserves in the form of karma.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Gary, your not a traffic warden are you!


Nina as i quite fanice you!please dont flirt with me hunny!PMSL


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Ummm, totally agree with the karma.

I guess working with animals it's easy to forget how strange the human race can be!

Gary, we will undoubtedly lock horns again, but expect a slap once in a while. Oh, and that hat does nothing for you at all!


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Ummm, totally agree with the karma.
> 
> I guess working with animals it's easy to forget how strange the human race can be!
> 
> Gary, we will undoubtedly lock horns again, but expect a slap once in a while. Oh, and that hat does nothing for you at all!


when have we ever locked horns??? if we lock anything you would know about it Cap ??what cap??? all i can see is your broom


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

garryd said:


> when have we ever locked horns??? if we lock anything you would know about it Cap ??what cap??? all i can see is your broom


see ur being ur usawal charming self


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

next thread will be on de-horning I can see it coming


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2008)

tashi said:


> next thread will be on de-horning I can see it coming


pmfsl hahaha  or de nutting if nina got hold of garry in real life


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Eolabeo said:


> pmfsl hahaha  or de nutting if nina got hold of garry in real life


..................


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## minnie (Feb 14, 2008)

ha ha ha ya just made me spit me cofee alove the computer now


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## rebecca1 (Dec 15, 2008)

I have 2 rotti's, 1 with a tail & one without & I must say they are equaly cute


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

Magik said:


> I agree they looked better - but is that enough reason to dock their tails??


Completley agree! For a persons vanity should we dock the dogs tail...i cant believe 26 people voted i dont think its wrong, would you say that if someone cut your leg off and you could do nothing about it, i doubt it...:mad2:


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2008)

of course its wrong... how can it be right to chop parts of a dog??


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

shan said:


> of course its wrong... how can it be right to chop parts of a dog??


you obviously havent seen a working dog with a tail after its been caught up in something


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## rebecca1 (Dec 15, 2008)

rebecca1 said:


> I have 2 rotti's, 1 with a tail & one without & I must say they are equaly cute


 & both rescue dogs


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Dogs definately look better with tails. I love seeing rotties, dobes etc with tails... it's only because people are used to seeing them with docked tails that they look strange initially.

I do not have a problem with working dogs being docked. Having seen the damage springers can do to their tails, I have no problem with them being docked, so I've put that I think it's wrong, because the current law does allow for working dogs to be docked.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

100% for docking with active working breeds
100% against docking for fashion/looks.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

I dont have a problem with docking as long as it's done by a profeesional..

I always thought it was barbaric untill I actually saw pups being docked and they didnt even really react..


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Why would anyone want to mutilate a dog for 'looks'.. even if it doesn't appear to affect them (I'm not so sure it doesn't even though the reaction may not be what we would expect). I think it is bizarre that an animal lover would be ok with cutting bits off just to achieve a certian look.

It is a different matter for working dogs who, due to the work they are doing have a high risk of damaging their tails.

Personally, I am very happy with the new law as it stands.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

i agree, it would be like cutting the little toe off your baby when its born.... i dont see the point.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> 100% for docking with active working breeds
> 100% against docking for fashion/looks.


Back you on that. Working dogs there is a reason, household/Pet dogs it is all down to vanity!!


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

shan said:


> i agree, it would be like cutting the little toe off your baby when its born.... i dont see the point.


Its part of the dog it is what makes them them...


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

shan said:


> i agree, it would be like cutting the little toe off your baby when its born.... i dont see the point.


It would be more like circumsismsome have to have it done for health,some for religeon...


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm kinda on the fence..

I used to be totaly against it. The first boxer I met was a 6month old called dancer. she had a tail and she was lovely.
I do think rotties and dobes look better without. Then again I had a dobe x boxer with tail and he was so cute! 

But if its for work/health reasons i agree with docking.

I disagree with banning docking though. It cant be that cruel and painful it it isnt illegal to dock working dogs. They should have left it up to personal opinion/breeders choice because then there would be less people doing it wrong!

If it was legal to dock, more people could get it done professionally and correctly, and they could have been working on stopping people who do it themselves.


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## fosse (Dec 10, 2008)

I agree with the way the law stands on docking.

I don't agree with docking purely for vanity/looks. 

In Scotland docking is banned outright which I think is harsh, having seen images of working dogs with injuries to their tails, I'd rather see working dogs docked and avoid such problems.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

_disagree with banning docking though. It cant be that cruel and painful it it isnt illegal to dock working dogs._

Docking a working dog is the lesser of two evils when compared with the likely (although not guaranteed) alternative - considerable repeated tail damage which could lead to eventual amputation anyway - causing far more suffering to the dog than docking at a few days old. This scenario cannot be compared to a dog that is docked purely for cosmetic/asthetic reasons.

_In Scotland docking is banned outright _

Fosse - I didn't realise the law was different in Scotland - I wonder how their spaniels cope, although perhaps they don't have the same sort of cover we have south of the border.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Docking for Pets/Looks-No, I'm happy it's banned.

Working-Yes, i've seen it happen way to many times what happens


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

For looks its so wrong, all these people moan about putting brass on Staffys just so they look good, docking for looks is worse.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Almost voted don't think there is a problem with docking - but changed at the last minute - to On the Fence.

So to elabarate - I don't see a problem with docking CERTAIN breeds - just so long as it is done legally!!! Not for it for cosmetic/looks but certainly in some cases for the good of the dog. for example a boxer can do a lot of damage with it's tail - not only to glass/things around the home - but also to itself - I knew a boxer recently who fractured its tail. My dogs (weims) one had a tail the other is docked - I actually like the tail - but it's like a whip. 

I am most certainly against ANY form of illegal docking - however 'experienced' they may 'THINK' they are.
regards
DT

regards


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## valg22 (Dec 16, 2008)

i would vote against it but iam not allowed, i think its terrible


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Almost voted don't think there is a problem with docking - but changed at the last minute - to On the Fence.
> 
> So to elabarate - I don't see a problem with docking CERTAIN breeds - just so long as it is done legally!!! Not for it for cosmetic/looks but certainly in some cases for the good of the dog. for example a boxer can do a lot of damage with it's tail - not only to glass/things around the home - but also to itself - I knew a boxer recently who fractured its tail. My dogs (weims) one had a tail the other is docked - I actually like the tail - but it's like a whip.
> 
> ...


By docking certain breeds because they look better is still wrong, any dog could harm themself in the home weather it be foot or tail...leaving it to the breeders is giving them a costmetic choice and imo it is wrong, the only dogs that should have their tails docked is working dogs!


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## valg22 (Dec 16, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> By docking certain breeds because they look better is still wrong, any dog could harm themself in the home weather it be foot or tail...leaving it to the breeders is giving them a costmetic choice and imo it is wrong, the only dogs that should have their tails docked is working dogs!


i have to agree with you


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

So docking it because its like a whip is ok then or they might break something how silly, dont get a boxer then get a small dog so it cant reach your glass wear, does that mean pulling a dogs teeth out then because they my nip you and it might hurt, i dont think you would. Any dog can hurt its tail by wagging it. You might hurt your hand bye waving you might knock it on the wall, should we all have our hands cut off.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

krrbl123 said:


> So docking it because its like a whip is ok then or they might break something how silly, dont get a boxer then get a small dog so it cant reach your glass wear, does that mean pulling a dogs teeth out then because they my nip you and it might hurt, i dont think you would. Any dog can hurt its tail by wagging it. You might hurt your hand bye waving you might knock it on the wall, should we all have our hands cut off.


Great argument! As you can see i am rite behind ya!! PPL dont think sometime, we wouldn't go cutting parts of our bodys off so why should we do it dogs...


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

krrbl123 said:


> So docking it because its like a whip is ok then or they might break something how silly, dont get a boxer then get a small dog so it cant reach your glass wear, does that mean pulling a dogs teeth out then because they my nip you and it might hurt, i dont think you would. Any dog can hurt its tail by wagging it. You might hurt your hand bye waving you might knock it on the wall, should we all have our hands cut off.


I never said that - if you are going to quote me - quote me right - I said I have one with and one without - but the one with is like a whip - I never said I prefered the docked one - If I had wanted my dog docked it would have been - believe you me!!!!!!! but I actually love the tail. I only said that certain breeds -for their OWN good - i'e boxer!

Now if we are going to nit pick -!!!
DT


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I never said that - if you are going to quote me - quote me right - I said I have one with and one without - but the one with is like a whip - I never said I prefered the docked one -* If I had wanted my dog docked it would have been - believe you me!!!!!!! * but I actually love the tail. *I only said that certain breeds -for their OWN good - i'e boxer!*
> Now if we are going to nit pick -!!!
> DT


Sorry DT i have to disagree with you here

Firstly: The first quote i have highlighted - what an attitude you have...just because your a human it gives you the right to decided weather you want it or not, that's like humans do i want bigger boobs or not? Vanity as far as i am concerned!! Your taking the choice away from the dog, it was born with a tail why should you chop it over because you feel like it?

And secondly, for their OWN good? Or yours? Every dog has it's falts...some have long fluffy tails but they learn to live with it as we do parts of our problem not everyones wants to just erradicate the problem.

TBH your views really astonish me and i find them quite disturbing as i do some of the others (Not meant to offend anyone just a personal opinion)

I believe dogs tails should be docked if and only if they are working all other reasons can be dealt with and to dock it is vanity!!


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Think this has been taken out of context a little.. a pup having his/her tail docked cannot be compared to some one having their teeth removed or having a boob job.. which are, I can assure you, are very painfull!


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Katie
I can see why you have miss understood me now - I have done something I seldom do - I have read back .

My initial quote - THINK about this - should have said I almost voted AGAINST - the I changed my mind at the last minute - Have I have intended to write it has it is written I would (THINK about ths) - I would never have elabarated why SOME dogs should have been done now would I.

NOW to be perfectly honet I have little enough time for the forum as it is without getting into these seeminly pathetic arguements with those that just want to prove a point.

So to those of you who know me - a spades a spade - please accept my explaination - to my error - to those of you are her acting as Inspector Clueso - please try to engage your energies into something more productive.
With that said - I press the ignore button on yet another member.
Have a good day.
regards
DT


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

DT its no good sending me private messages saying you have put me on ignore thats a bit wrong i was not quoting you personally i was quoting anybody who does it for looks and would they cut parts of there body off incase they hurt there selfs. Saying you stuck up for before, what has that got to do with it, im giving my opinion but dont send me private messages have you sent everyone else one.


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks for the appolgy ( not sure if i spelt that right lol ) I wrote last post before i read your new one lol


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Katie
> I can see why you have miss understood me now - I have done something I seldom do - I have read back .
> 
> My initial quote - THINK about this - should have said I almost voted AGAINST - the I changed my mind at the last minute - Have I have intended to write it has it is written I would (THINK about ths) - I would never have elabarated why SOME dogs should have been done now would I.
> ...


Removed what I had written to avoid an arguement - time to let sleeping dogs lie


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

already see what you wrote, good luck ignoring everyone that writes down there opinion


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

krrbl123 said:


> already see what you wrote, good luck ignoring everyone that writes down there opinion


Hehehe

_*A forum is for debate, a debate includes opinions surely that is the point? *_

On a further note:

Originally Posted by DoubleTrouble

Seeminly pathetic arguements with those that just want to prove a point. You only see them as seemingly pathetic because someone has dared to disagree and voice an opinion of another kind

please try to engage your energies into something more productive To me productive isplacing opinions on the things i believe are right and wrong/the whole point of the forum

Just to conclude:

No arguments from me, just opinions. I don't mean to offend anyone including DT as we have before been friends and i do back her up in a lot of her points... This is just my opinion....

Sleeping dogs are now laid to rest, lol!


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Think this has been taken out of context a little.. a pup having his/her tail docked cannot be compared to some one having their teeth removed or having a boob job.. which are, I can assure you, are very painfull!


The thing is tho bee, we have a choice to do these things (boob jobs etc) by docking a dogs tail for vanity reasons or because it 'looks better' we are takin responsibility for how 'we' want them to look and not leaving them as they have been created....!

Again as stated before no mean to offence, just voiceing an opinion.


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

I remember someone wanted to take a microchip out and asked for advice and she got back was loads s--t causing pain to a dog when you dont need to, but it is most likely its the same people that think its good to have tail cut of off puppys because they look better


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> The thing is tho bee, we have a choice to do these things (boob jobs etc) by docking a dogs tail for vanity reasons or because it 'looks better' we are takin responsibility for how 'we' want them to look and not leaving them as they have been created....!
> 
> Again as stated before no mean to offence, just voiceing an opinion.


That's cool hun.. Everyone is entitled to that :thumbup1:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*well i've voted, sitting on the fence...i've never seen how a dogs tail is docked, and whether or not they feel pain.*


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *well i've voted, sitting on the fence...i've never seen how a dogs tail is docked, and whether or not they feel pain.*


You sitting on the fence with me Janice ?????


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

krrbl123 said:


> I remember someone wanted to take a microchip out and asked for advice and she got back was loads s--t causing pain to a dog when you dont need to, but it is most likely its the same people that think its good to have tail cut of off puppys because they look better


Removing a chip is slightly more complicated wouldn't you say ? It would need to be done under a GA,where as docking a pups tail is not.

I don't know if a pup feels pain when there docked I have no experience of seeing pups been docked,I know a dog feels pain when they injure a tail through working and it can cause complications which could have been avoided if the pup had been docked.
Do you know if a pup feels pain Kerri ? Have you seen docking been done ?

My O/H has experience of docking,he has said the pups are more uncomfortable by been removed from there Dam and siblings and didn't make a sound when been docked,does this sound like a pup in pain ? It doesn't to me.


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## wiggy (Sep 20, 2008)

I hate tail docking.
Never will i agree with it - it doesnt look better, it doesnt need to be done unless you have a working dog - but then its for their own safety.
I say a rotty in the vets yesterday and his tail was docked right up to his bum and it looked horrible!
People that say it looks better WTF mutlating a dog because of looks - nice


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Removing a chip is slightly more complicated wouldn't you say ? It would need to be done under a GA,where as docking a pups tail is not.
> 
> I don't know if a pup feels pain when there docked I have no experience of seeing pups been docked,I know a dog feels pain when they injure a tail through working and it can cause complications which could have been avoided if the pup had been docked.
> Do you know if a pup feels pain Kerri ? Have you seen docking been done ?
> ...


I think we have preety much all agreed that for working reasons a dogs tail should be docked, all other reasons it shouldn't.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You sitting on the fence with me Janice ?????


*LOL yes mate, i hope you dont mind.. i'm giving Cesar a break
On a serious note i would like to see tail docking done,,and before i get shouted at,then i could get my oppion.*


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

No never seen pups being docked but i heard they dont have any pain killers dont know if this is true or not, i dont agree with looks being docked not working dogs. i would of thought if this lady had the chip removed the dog would have been knocked out, but i dont agree with her post either i would not put my dogs through that to remove a micro chip.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

wiggy said:


> I hate tail docking.
> Never will i agree with it - it doesnt look better, it doesnt need to be done unless you have a working dog - but then its for their own safety.
> I say a rotty in the vets yesterday and his tail was docked right up to his bum and it looked horrible!
> People that say it looks better *WTF mutlating a dog because of looks - nice*


100% behind ya xxx


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

YouTube - Docking Drahthaar tails

YouTube - Cutting The Tail of an innocent Puppy


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Janice 
Many years ago I recall seeing pups after they had been docked - I hated it - becuase I knew how it had been done.

As for docking at the vets I can neither comment on that - ther then - when I was in the vets a good few years back A litter there for docking - obviously we cannot see what is going on behind closed doors - but I can remember hearing every one of them pups crying - so can only assume!!!! - obviously - it could have been something else that made they cry But I sumised it meant that the tails were just clipped of with a tool for the purpose - obviously they could not go under GA because they were too young .
regards
Sue


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

This to me sounds like the puppy is in pain or am i hearing things poor little puppies


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Ok i've just watched it on youtube...what i would like to know is this,,why dont they sedate the pups 1st? and for anyone who hasnt watched it....the pup did feel pain,and in my oppion that is cruel...call me stupid (many have) but i was under the impression they tied a band around the tail and it fell off..*


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i've just watched it on youtube...what i would like to know is this,,why dont they sedate the pups 1st? and for anyone who hasnt watched it....the pup did feel pain,and in my oppion that is cruel...call me stupid (many have) but i was under the impression they tied a band around the tail and it fell off..*


I thought that also.
I couldn't watch it, the thought of it makes me sick...i cannot bear it.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

There are some pups been docked on this link,they don't look destressed to me View tail docking film, buy on DVD


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i've just watched it on youtube...what i would like to know is this,,why dont they sedate the pups 1st? and for anyone who hasnt watched it....the pup did feel pain,and in my oppion that is cruel...call me stupid (many have) but i was under the impression they tied a band around the tail and it fell off..*


Alot of vets do use the banding method.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> I thought that also.
> I couldn't watch it, the thought of it makes me sick...i cannot bear it.


Guess too young to sedate Katie - it would maybe be too dangerous to the pup


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Guess too young to sedate Katie - it would maybe be too dangerous to the pup


Suppose
I just cant bring myself to watch, I have made up my mind and i know by watching a vid it aint gunna change it.
It'd make me cry! Even for working reasons i'd cry!! Lol


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

yet I have seen a litter of weimeranas pups being docked and none of them reacted or even flinched..


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> Suppose
> I just cant bring myself to watch, I have made up my mind and i know by watching a vid it aint gunna change it.
> It'd make me cry! Even for working reasons i'd cry!! Lol


There is a pic of a spaniel with tail damage on this link,
Spaniel tail damage

And a boxer with tail damage on this one,who later had to undergo a GA and have part of it's tail removed Boxer tail damage


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> There is a pic of a spaniel with tail damage on this link,
> Spaniel tail damage
> 
> And a boxer with tail damage on this one,who later had to undergo a GA and have part of it's tail removed Boxer tail damage


Sallyanne i have already stated for working reasons tails should be docked!!:rolleyes5:


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## wiggy (Sep 20, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i've just watched it on youtube...what i would like to know is this,,why dont they sedate the pups 1st? and for anyone who hasnt watched it....the pup did feel pain,and in my oppion that is cruel...call me stupid (many have) but i was under the impression they tied a band around the tail and it fell off..*


Its too dangerous for them to sedacte pups before docking, what method of docking did you see as there are 2. Legally they have to do it befiore the puppies eyes are open. The methods are rubber band (i have sheep and have to use this method for them - not nice) and the other is chopping it off with a surgery blade.
Both are extremly painful ways of doing it and wrong, morally its wrong for the dog, all that pain to loor pretty - not right.
Next it will be face lifts and tummy tucks with them


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

bee112 said:


> yet I have seen a litter of weimeranas pups being docked and none of them reacted or even flinched..


Bee
I have two weimarners at the moment - one is docked the other is not - My girl I lost this last march ws also docked - just right to cover her private parts.

My boy - I consider was badly docked (probably a do it yourself job) I know dogs are dock shorted then bitches but his seems too short - sometime he looks uncomfy when in the sit. I also had a young rescue lad here (fostering) last year - he was badly docked two with no fur on the end of his tail and sores. 
regards
Sue


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*


sallyanne said:



Alot of vets do use the banding method.

Click to expand...

I've just watched that one as well, that was using a band wasnt it? the pisture wasnt that clear on my pc....when a band is used, do the tails just drop off? like with sheep?
I might add that clip the pups didnt seem distressed at all...



Katie&Riley said:



Suppose
I just cant bring myself to watch, I have made up my mind and i know by watching a vid it aint gunna change it.
It'd make me cry! Even for working reasons i'd cry!! Lol

Click to expand...

Katie i dont like to see ANY animal in pain either, but sometimes we cant give an honest answer if we dont know what the truth is..*


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Bee
> I have two weimarners at the moment - one is docked the other is not - My girl I lost this last march ws also docked - just right to cover her private parts.
> 
> My boy - I consider was badly docked (probably a do it yourself job) I know dogs are dock shorted then bitches but his seems too short - sometime he looks uncomfy when in the sit. I also had a young rescue lad here (fostering) last year - he was badly docked two with no fur on the end of his tail and sores.
> ...


yeh thats what worries me with docking being illeagal as you'll get people doing it anyway and doing it wrong rather than if they were able to go to a professional


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## cat001 (Apr 12, 2008)

I personally don't care how the animal 'looks' with a tail, the tail is a major part of dog to dog communication and _does_ play and important and functional role. I dislike unatural and uneccassary alteration of an animal, it would be like chopping one of your fingers off, i'm sure you wouldn't much appreciate it even if you could live without it.

Though i do think that their are some acceptions if there is a benefit to the dog from having its tail docked, such as health and safety/mobility reasons for certain breeds etc.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> Sallyanne i have already stated for working reasons tails should be docked!!:rolleyes5:


I posted two pics,one of a spaniel the other a Boxer,Boxer's don't work in the field like spaniels


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I posted two pics,one of a spaniel the other a Boxer,Boxer's don't work in the field like spaniels


But is it a working dog?
Boxers are one of my fave breeds so i know what they look like with docked tails...:huh:


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *
> 
> I've just watched that one as well, that was using a band wasnt it? the pisture wasnt that clear on my pc....when a band is used, do the tails just drop off? like with sheep?
> I might add that clip the pups didnt seem distressed at all*


Yes they drop off after about 3 days,banding stops the circulation to the tail.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> But is it a working dog?
> Boxers are one of my fave breeds so i know what they look like with docked tails...:huh:


That wasn't my point,I also know what Boxers look like with and without tails, as do many of us,the pic was of a boxer with a tail with damage.
And No it isn't a working dog but surely if they are likely to damage there tails as a result, followed by having part of the tail removed it would be kinder to dock as pups ?


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## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

I have a docked spaniel, he has been shot over but he has also had a tail injury two years ago - fortunately he recovered well but the vet was concerned he might have to remove the end of the tail. So docking is not always a preventive for later injury.
In Scotland there are no exceptions to docking so all dogs born now must have full tails.

Sgurr


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I know that I made my points very clear at the beginning of this thread, but since its been regurgitated again, I really would like to say, the majority of people who are in favour of amputation are mostly the breeders whose arguments are quite frankly as pathetic as the poor pups that they mutilate. How many times do I hear that &#8220;Their tails get hurt when dogs work in the field&#8221;! A lot of these poor dogs never get to feel the warmth of a lovely fire, and the comfort of carpet under their feet, most spending their time in a freezing cold kennel! 

Remember the old saying that castrating a horse with two bricks doesn't hurt either? &#8230; Well as long as you keep your thumbs out of the way, you won&#8217;t feel a thing!:mad5:

You will never change someones mind who constantly tries to find justification for this barbaric practice and those of you who think that puppies do not feel a thing, try talking to a vet. DOGS/PUPPIES ALL HAVE A NERVOUS SYSTEM, so how the hell can anyone say "but it doesn't hurt" Grrrrr.


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

I prefere to see dogs in there natural state unless its for medical or working reasons and is carried out by a professional. I didnt get a choice with my cocker as he was older when we got him and it was already done. If given the choice i would have said keep the tail.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

I think most decent people would Sullivan  

It's a shame that people do not read the majority of threads, before just commenting in the last post. Have to say however, that I have been guilty of that in the past!

I just hope that people will see my previous post, since I think that just about sums up this debate.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Nina. Have you had much to do with working gundogs?
I can assure you that the majority are first and foremost, much loved family members, not all i grant you. I have been around working gundogs for 35 years and have seen some dreadful injuries to spaniel tails even those that are docked but have been left quite long. In the main I do agree that tail docking is barbaric. I can see no reason to dock any other breed except working spaniels, yes some other working dogs will get problems with their tails, but this would be few and far between and can be dealt with as and when it arises but spaniels on the whole would be living in great pain for most of their working lives.
What is neutering if not mutilation for the benifit of us humans, yes you could say it is better for the dog but so then is docking working spaniel tails


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I find it disgustin that people would dock a dog for the looks. And thats where it all goes wrong in the dog world....that we humans give ourselves rights and try to justify them with stupid excuses 

And there we are complaining about buying dogs for fashion and then on the other hand agree on docking dogs for looks  
Im glad its banned and it is banned for a very good reason imo

EVERY puppy encounters pain by docking....it might not show it the way we expect, but doesnt make it any less painless. Animals are survivers and they go on with everything (inculding pain!) what the humans does to it and human thinks thats ok then.

Im not too sure about working dogs and i have a few issues there too as what would a human do if a working dog keeps hurting his leg????

What work does a working dog do anyway?


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

Nina said:


> I know that I made my points very clear at the beginning of this thread, but since its been regurgitated again, I really would like to say, the majority of people who are in favour of amputation are mostly the breeders whose arguments are quite frankly as pathetic as the poor pups that they mutilate. How many times do I hear that Their tails get hurt when dogs work in the field! A lot of these poor dogs never get to feel the warmth of a lovely fire, and the comfort of carpet under their feet, most spending their time in a freezing cold kennel!
> 
> Remember the old saying that castrating a horse with two bricks doesn't hurt either?  Well as long as you keep your thumbs out of the way, you wont feel a thing!:mad5:
> 
> You will never change someones mind who constantly tries to find justification for this barbaric practice and those of you who think that puppies do not feel a thing, try talking to a vet. DOGS/PUPPIES ALL HAVE A NERVOUS SYSTEM, so how the hell can anyone say "but it doesn't hurt" Grrrrr.


Seems like a lot of vain owners around that want their dogs to 'look' good why can't the just accept them and love them as they are. Grr makes me so mad  Well put tho Nina


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Natik said:


> EVERY puppy encounters pain by docking....it might not show it the way we expect, but doesnt make it any less painless. Animals are survivers and they go on with everything (inculding pain!) what the humans does to it and human thinks thats ok then.


Have you seen docking been done then ? If not how do you know they feel pain,I said in an earlier post I didn't know if they did or not as I have not seen any pups been docked.
Without seeing the pups docked I would say that's an assumption based on your opinion because you think docking is cruel.



Natik said:


> Im not too sure about working dogs and i have a few issues there too as what would a human do if a working dog keeps hurting his leg????


Hurting it's leg is slightly different to splitting open a tail which then needs to be amputated under a GA and / or causing spinal injury even death wouldn't you say ?



Natik said:


> What work does a working dog do anyway?


Wow! what a statement given the above,so if you don't know what a working dog does,how can you justify not docking them ?
A spaniel will work in undergrowth rough bracken,brambles to flush game for the gun,as well as picking it up.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Hurting it's leg is slightly different to splitting open a tail which then needs to be amputated under a GA and causing spinal injury even death wouldn't you say ?

*Now this has confused me,if it can cause spinal injury when being opperated on under GA how can it be the same doesnt apply when tails are docked?*


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Now this has confused me,if it can cause spinal injury when being opperated on under GA how can it be the same doesnt apply when tails are docked?*


You've misread my post 
I meant by a dog catching it's tail by working,splitting it etc can also cause spinal injuries to the dog.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

We have had many puppies docked as we had working terriers and spaniels and if they are done properly never even squeal - now dew clawing they do squeal - so which is the one that they have banned, dont get me wrong we have our pups dew clawed as well due to the damage that can be caused by a ripped dew claw, but the damage done to a tail is absolutely horrific!!!

I used to have a gamekeepers bitch in for a good groom through at the end of the season she had an undocked tail as she was a runt and we dont have puppies docked if they look weak, she was a fantastic worker but it took me an age to unwrap her tail from the elastoplast, she didnt turn up one year, on asking after her she had had gangrene set into the end of the damaged tail they had to dock her so short and then the gangrene set into the spine - result they had to put her to sleep.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Have you seen docking been done then ? If not how do you know they feel pain,I said in an earlier post I didn't know if they did or not as I have not seen any pups been docked.
> Without seeing the pups docked I would say that's an assumption based on your opinion because you think docking is cruel.
> 
> I dont need to see it...simply the fact of removing a body part is reason enough to know that its painfull
> ...


I never said docking working dogs shouldnt be done, i said i have a view issues with it. Whats ur problem with that?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I am looking at this purely from a laymans point of view, 
If you asked me this question before I read everyones posts I would of had a simple answer
No for pet or show dogs
Yes for working dogs if appropriate to their work.

However now I'm not sure, If you dock a tail for a working dog then find his temperment is not suited he is then excluded from the show ring.
If you don't dock because you think he will be suitable for show or pet then find he needs the challenge of work what's best then.
I hadn't even thought about the KC drive towards one standard working or show, and how that would be effected.

I still don't believe we should be docking for cosmetic reasons, but i'm not sure how decisions can be made on a dogs future in the fist 2 days of its life.

I'm more confused than I was before I started reading!!!


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

I think was ESS owners are trying to say when tthey get near to their pray/game they use their tails as much as their noses their tails go mad - which is not so much of a problem with docked dogs Full tails damaged whilst in undergrowth can cause major problems (apart from banging/spitting) with thorns and other hazards - when the tail is left the owner cannot often see any damage until absecces , sores cuts gashes etc etc are evident - we all know tails are slow to heal due to the blood supply.etc etc etc -

As for working JRT and other Terrier breeds - I have no comment - I am told that they often get bitten on their tails and this is the reason for docking.

WORKING ESS is a dog I that I PERSONALLY think benifits from docking. BUT as others say docked tails also get damaged - Interesting to know what the ratio is - this would maybe answer the question.

I am - against docking as stated above (bit of confusion there I think with me writing it the wrong way around).
regards
DT


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

In the case of springer and cocker spaniels there is no problem as the working and show dogs very rarely if ever cross over. They are like two different breeds


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Natik said:


> I never said docking working dogs shouldnt be done, i said i have a view issues with it. Whats ur problem with that?


What are your issue's with docking a working dog ?

You state you haver never seen any pups docked therefore how can you conclude it's painful ?
I haven't seen any docked,so I am undecided on that one.I'm been honest I'm not saying it's got to be painful because your cutting something off,I would like to see the evidence of it before I make up my mind.

A leg injury is alot different to a tail injury that can cause severe spinal injury.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> What are your issue's with docking a working dog ?
> 
> You state you haver never seen any pups docked therefore how can you conclude it's painful ?
> I haven't seen any docked,so I am undecided on that one.I'm been honest I'm not saying it's got to be painful because your cutting something off,I would like to see the evidence of it before I make up my mind.
> ...


its my opinion and i dont need to justify to u why :nono:
Ur cutting of a body part and not giving the dog a hair cut .... cutting off body parts is painfull due to the nerve system every living creature has got in its body, cant explain this one any clearer :blink:


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

The Scottish Government has recently contributed £10,000 towards a study to document the risks of tail injuries in dogs in the UK, to evaluate whether docking of tails reduces the risk of tail injury and to identify other major risk factors for tail injury. The study began in October 2007 and is being undertaken by the University of Bristol and the Royal Veterinary College. The study was to take 12 months but this has been extended by six months.


This may answer the question but not yet


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Natik said:


> its my opinion and i dont need to justify to u why :nono:
> Ur cutting of a body part and not giving the dog a hair cut .... cutting off body parts is painfull due to the nerve system every living creature has got in its body, cant explain this one any clearer :blink:


Ok then 
You state you had issues then not willing to explain - That's fine.

Until I see any docking I will reserve judgement that's it's painful and not just assume,and I thought you didn't like people making assumptions,yet you have assumed because you cut off a dogs tail for a perfectly legitimate reason it's painful.

Do you not think it's also painful for a working dog to have a cut tail and severe spinal injury which could have been avoided in the first place by docking ?


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I think we should still have tail docking.

Some dogs look ridiculous with one!
We dock all of ours as they usually go to wrorking homes.
Also people that say it is cruel. The puppy yelps, yes. But after that no pain.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Ok then
> You state you had issues then not willing to explain - That's fine.
> 
> Until I see any docking I will reserve judgement that's it's painful and not just assume,and I thought you didn't like people making assumptions,yet you have assumed because you cut off a dogs tail for a perfectly legitimate reason it's painful.
> ...


 Do i have to go to the vet now or watch a video online to be able to have an opinion?

And the fact that a dog has a nerve system in its tail isnt an assumption so i dont know where u coming from. U dont need a doctor telling u that cutting somewhere where a nerve system runs through is painfull :blink:
Im sure we all had biology at school to know this basic things


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Ok then
> You state you had issues then not willing to explain - That's fine.
> 
> Until I see any docking I will reserve judgement that's it's painful and not just assume,and I thought you didn't like people making assumptions,yet you have assumed because you cut off a dogs tail for a perfectly legitimate reason it's painful.
> ...


I put 2 videos up this morning with pups having there tails docked did you not see them?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

rona said:


> The Scottish Government has recently contributed £10,000 towards a study to document the risks of tail injuries in dogs in the UK, to evaluate whether docking of tails reduces the risk of tail injury and to identify other major risk factors for tail injury. The study began in October 2007 and is being undertaken by the University of Bristol and the Royal Veterinary College. The study was to take 12 months but this has been extended by six months.
> 
> This may answer the question but not yet


May be I'll wait for this to make a final decision on how I feel o this subject
I understand why ESS are docked but its the other working breeds I'm not so sure about


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I think we should still have tail docking.
> 
> Some dogs look ridiculous with one!
> 
> ...


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

You all could give them names so everyone wants one (docker spanial ) it sound fashionable. Then the breeder can make more money
At least they will look good .


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

rona said:


> Nina. Have you had much to do with working gundogs?
> I can assure you that the majority are first and foremost, much loved family members, not all i grant you. I have been around working gundogs for 35 years and have seen some dreadful injuries to spaniel tails even those that are docked but have been left quite long. In the main I do agree that tail docking is barbaric. I can see no reason to dock any other breed except working spaniels, yes some other working dogs will get problems with their tails, but this would be few and far between and can be dealt with as and when it arises but spaniels on the whole would be living in great pain for most of their working lives.
> What is neutering if not mutilation for the benifit of us humans, yes you could say it is better for the dog but so then is docking working spaniel tails


My dog Chester didnt have his tail docked, the mess he makes after hunting through some bracken :frown2:


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Natik said:


> Patterdale_lover said:
> 
> 
> > I think we should still have tail docking.
> ...


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## krrbl123 (Jun 26, 2008)

By accident when i was 17, i worked in a greyhound kennels and i caught one of there tails in the door when i closed it and took the tip off the tail off, there was loads of blood but you dont see greyhound racing with docked tails just incase kennel maids shut there tails in the door


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

I think I agree with both Natik and Sallyanne if that is possible.
Of course puppies suffer pain when they are docked, would thousands of working spaniels suffer months if not years of pain if not docked, most certainly they would.
It is the degree of pain. If you have a tooth out it hurts, but if left it hurts a lot worse for a lot longer


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

krrbl123 said:


> By accident when i was 17, i worked in a greyhound kennels and i caught one of there tails in the door when i closed it and took the tip off the tail off, there was loads of blood but you dont see greyhound racing with docked tails just incase kennel maids shut there tails in the door


Is this about gundogs having docked tails??
Because literallyy their tails are shredded and they are whimpering and bleedng.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I found this is interesting

*Tail docking involves amputating most or part of a dog's tail. This is often carried out illegally by breeders using scissors, nail clippers, a Stanley knife or rubber bands, (cutting off the blood supply to the tail). Even when carried out by a veterinarian, neither anaesthetic or analgesia is generally used. The UK Kennel Club registers approximately 200 dog breeds and out of these, up to 60 breeds are traditionally docked.

The tail consists of 6-23 vertebra enclosed in muscles, 4-7 pairs of nerves and supporting tendons and cartilage. Some breeds have a small portion of the tail removed whilst others such as the Rottweiler, Boxer or Doberman may be left with 1-2 vertebrae. This procedure involves the cutting through of skin, muscle, bones and cartilage and all without any form of pain relief.

The Department of Companion Animals, Queensland , carried out a detailed study of 50 puppies aged between 3-5 days old undergoing docking. The puppies were Doberman, Rottweilers and Bouviers that traditionally have the tail docked very short and so requires a suture to assist healing. The outcome of the report was as follows:

"All pups appeared distressed by the amputation of the tail. Relatively continuous mild vocalisations during the preparation of the tail turned dramatically to repeated and intense shrieking vocalisations at the moment the tail was docked. The intensity of vocalisations decreased slightly (but was still above the intensity made during preparation of the tail) in the period between amputation and placement of the suture (if appropriate). At the moment of piercing the skin for a suture placement, vocalisations again returned to levels comparable with the amputation. Similar intense vocalisations were noticed when pressure was placed on the suture material as the knot was tied. The average number of shrieks made during the amputation of the tail was 24, (range of 5-23.) The average number of whimpers made during the amputation of the tail was 18, (range of 2 -46.) All pups exhibited some degree of bleeding from the stump following docking." 

When the pups were placed back into their box they stumbled around and made uncoordinated limb movements and whimpered for some time. They had to remain separated from their mother for some time to prevent the mother licking the mutilated pup. The pro-docking organisations claim that the puppy does recover from the procedure so no harm is done.*


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

rona said:


> I think I agree with both Natik and Sallyanne if that is possible.
> Of course puppies suffer pain when they are docked, would thousands of working spaniels suffer months if not years of pain if not docked, most certainly they would.
> It is the degree of pain. If you have a tooth out it hurts, but if left it hurts a lot worse for a lot longer


Nice point Rona


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

When the pups were placed back into their box they stumbled around and made uncoordinated limb movements and whimpered for some time. They had to remain separated from their mother for some time to prevent the mother licking the mutilated pup. The pro-docking organisations claim that the puppy does recover from the procedure so no harm is done.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes 99% of the the time it is fine. A simple procedure, all of our pups are fine. :blink:


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

krrbl123 said:


> By accident when i was 17, i worked in a greyhound kennels and i caught one of there tails in the door when i closed it and took the tip off the tail off, there was loads of blood but you dont see greyhound racing with docked tails just incase kennel maids shut there tails in the door


Working labs sometimes injure their tails but nobody would advocate having them docked as it is unusual for this to happen not the norm. In the case of spaniels it is a very large percentage


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> I think I agree with both Natik and Sallyanne if that is possible.
> Of course puppies suffer pain when they are docked, would thousands of working spaniels suffer months if not years of pain if not docked, most certainly they would.
> It is the degree of pain. If you have a tooth out it hurts, but if left it hurts a lot worse for a lot longer


Thats what im trying to say...why putting a pup through pain (and they do encounter pain!!) only for "fashion"?
I do understand that working dogs can get their tail hurt but thats why im not totally against it but i do have some issues with it which i think im allowed to have


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Natik said:


> Thats what im trying to say...why putting a pup through pain (and they do encounter pain!!) only for "fashion"?
> I do understand that working dogs can get their tail hurt but thats why im not totally against it but i do have some issues with it which i think im allowed to have


I also have issues with it, but have seen the other side with working spaniels.
A lot of other working breeds are still docked and I don't think that that they should be as they do not suffer in from tail injuries in the same numbers


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik said:


> I found this is interesting
> 
> *Tail docking involves amputating most or part of a dog's tail. This is often carried out illegally by breeders using scissors, nail clippers, a Stanley knife or rubber bands, (cutting off the blood supply to the tail). Even when carried out by a veterinarian, neither anaesthetic or analgesia is generally used. The UK Kennel Club registers approximately 200 dog breeds and out of these, up to 60 breeds are traditionally docked.
> 
> ...


At 3- 5 days old even undocked puppies have un-co-ordinated limb movements and whimper!!!! Did anyone read my post about why and how our pups have reacted to docking. It depends alot on how good the person docking them is with it our vet was ab fab and we never had a whimper


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Tashi....but how do u tell the difference if they whimper because they are tiny or are in pain?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik said:


> Tashi....but how do u tell the difference if they whimper because they are tiny or are in pain?


They go straight back to sleep after having their tails docked wouldnt happen if they were in pain, but the pain of a tail damaged when they are older is an easy thing to see they chase the tail and often bite their own tail to try to stop the pain, now when they are dew clawed they scream but we are still allowed to do that


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

IMO thats wrong to say they dont feel pain as this is simply against the natures biology.
The nerve sysytem is there to give pain to warn about danger and protect from getting injured even more.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

krrbl123 said:


> I put 2 videos up this morning with pups having there tails docked did you not see them?


I would rather watch video's from a reputable source  Such as the link I posted,did you not see it ?


rona said:


> I think I agree with both Natik and Sallyanne if that is possible.
> Of course puppies suffer pain when they are docked, would thousands of working spaniels suffer months if not years of pain if not docked, most certainly they would.
> It is the degree of pain. If you have a tooth out it hurts, but if left it hurts a lot worse for a lot longer


I think that was my point,isn't it better for a pup to have seconds or a minute of pain during docking rather than the pain through catching a tail when working,not only is it painful for the dog and can lead to complications with infection etc,it also stops the dog working which can be costly to it's owner.

I am not saying it's painful for a pup to be docked,I'm not saying it isn't.
I am undecided.
I have seen videos that say it's painful,some that show it isn't.
Some people say it is,others say it isn't.
So I won't assume anything.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

a follow up from the other article

*The pro-docking lobby claim that puppies aged between 3-5 days old do not feel pain because their nervous systems and sensory organs are immature. This view lacks credibility especially as evidence given to the House of Commons Committee on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in 2004 by an expert from University of Birmingham Centre for Biomedical Ethics said:

"Very young animals are likely to feel more pain than older animals."

Studies have proved that cutting the tail tip of mice increases sensitivity to pain in later life, an effect known as hyperalgesia. In fact puppies do feel pain and sensitivity to pain for many months after docking. Rarely mentioned is the fact that tail docking can have far reaching health issues. Due to the relationship between muscles in the dog's tail and the pelvic area, docking can affect muscle function around the rectum and pelvis thereby carrying a risk of faecal incontinence, acquired urinary incontinence and hernias. The tail is an extension of the dog's spine including various muscles and tendons. An example of this is the rectococcygeus muscle on the hind wall of the dog's rear, near to the anus. This muscle is attached to the base of the tail as well and supports the anal canal and rectum along with the Levator ani muscle. These two muscles also assist in movement of the tail and when the dog has a bowel motion. Docking the tail must obviously affect these muscles, a fact that is backed by studies showing that breeds such as the Boxer have a predisposition to perineal hernia. The females in docked breeds such as Rottweilers, Doberman, and Old English Sheepdogs suffer more from urinary incontinence after docking than undocked dogs.*


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

As I have said it is dependant on just who does it some vets are better than others, for example when we have pups injected some feel it others just take it in their stride, the reason that pups are done so young is that at the time that it is done the tail is not actually bone but gristle, I have always been there with the pups when they are done and they are done put back in a warm bed they curl up go back to sleep they are then checked before travelling home and bitch put straight back in with them, they feed straight away.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Also regarding working dogs is this interesting

*The pro-docking groups argue that working dogs must be docked to prevent injuries to the tail but studies have shown this not to be the case.

In the Royal School of Edinburgh small animal practise, out of 12,000 dogs registered, only 47 cases were attending due to tail injuries. In Australia out of 2000 dogs attending an animal emergency clinic only 3 were there because of tail damage. Defra's Animal Welfare Veterinary Team reviewed tail docking to prevent injury in 2002. They pointed out that basic first aid would treat most cases of tail injuries. This hardly equates to it being an adequate reason to dock a working dog's tail especially as Defra also reported that:

"True working animals constitute only a very small portion of dogs within the UK."

The Defra Animal Welfare Veterinary Team also showed more inconsistencies that prove docking; "working dogs" is carried out for cosmetic reasons and tradition rather than to prevent injury. The most obvious inconsistency to the pro-docking argument is that Foxhounds and Sheepdogs (Border Collie) are in fact the most common working dogs and these dogs spend their lives working in scrubland and rough vegetation and through woodlands yet are not docked. There is also no evidence to show that these dogs suffer from excessive tail injuries. Then one must consider the plight of the fox that seems to manage to move through dense undergrowth at speed and with ease yet it sports a delightfully bushy tail! *


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Natik where are you getting this from. PETA?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

No, its an article i found regarding the tail docking ban.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Yes but where from, who wrote it and have they got their own angle on the issue


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

rona said:


> Yes but where from, who wrote it and have they got their own angle on the issue


It sounds like it from the anti brigade as they keep making references to the "pro - docking".
It's not very well balanced is it ?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik alot of it depends on the job of the tail a border collie carries its tail low hence no damage, a foxhound carries it stern straight above the back hence no damage, a springer carries theirs level with their topline and when working the undergrowth wags their tail quite hard the same as when they are sniffing for drugs it is a way of seeing when they are reaching their quarry so to speak and the wag is so strong that is when the damage is caused so you cannot compare with either the foxhound or the border collie which uses their stern or tail in a different way for a different reason.

I dont have a problem with having tails as we have golden retrievers but out in the field they do not work the undergrowth the same as the spaniels so dont damage tails quite so much.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> It sounds like it from the anti brigade as they keep making references to the "pro - docking".
> It's not very well balanced is it ?


I only qoted the things which i found interesting, maybe thats why u find it not very well balanced


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

tashi said:


> Natik alot of it depends on the job of the tail a border collie carries its tail low hence no damage, a foxhound carries it stern straight above the back hence no damage, a springer carries theirs level with their topline and when working the undergrowth wags their tail quite hard the same as when they are sniffing for drugs it is a way of seeing when they are reaching their quarry so to speak and the wag is so strong that is when the damage is caused so you cannot compare with either the foxhound or the border collie which uses their stern or tail in a different way for a different reason.
> 
> I dont have a problem with having tails as we have golden retrievers but out in the field they do not work the undergrowth the same as the spaniels so dont damage tails quite so much.


i do understand the spaniel tail issue thats why im not totally against it.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Natik said:


> I only qoted the things which i found interesting, maybe thats why u find it not very well balanced


Not at all because as many articles and vet opinions can be found on pro docking 

Do you have a link ?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

rona said:


> Yes but where from, who wrote it and have they got their own angle on the issue


Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

I dont know, Sometimes it looks nice but it is nicer toi see a dog with their natural tail wagging than a little stump that moves slightly. Plus would you like someone to cut of your tail just because it looks nice or for show, whether or not it hirts. It is a natural part of the dog, would not be nice if someone cut of your hand or something.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

So we don't know who wrote it, or how balanced their opinion is?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Leah-Pardo said:


> I dont know, Sometimes it looks nice but it is nicer toi see a dog with their natural tail wagging than a little stump that moves slightly. Plus would you like someone to cut of your tail just because it looks nice or for show, whether or not it hirts. It is a natural part of the dog, would not be nice if someone cut of your hand or something.


Think you need to read more of the posts and see the reasons WHY it is done ours are not done to make them look prettier


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

tashi said:


> Think you need to read more of the posts and see the reasons WHY it is done ours are not done to make them look prettier


yes i see why you do it now  it is for the better help of the dog in your case 

i was just expressing my initial opinion but having read your post i see why it is done for the befit of the dog in other cases like yours


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

I feel that the majority of those that are against docking have little knowlege of working breeds and their jobs,pretty much the same as fox hunting the majority live in towns and have little knowlege of the countryside.

Tashi have you ever had any complications due to docking such as infection,pups dying etc ?


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

tashi said:


> They go straight back to sleep after having their tails docked wouldnt happen if they were in pain, but the pain of a tail damaged when they are older is an easy thing to see they chase the tail and often bite their own tail to try to stop the pain, now when they are dew clawed they scream but we are still allowed to do that


I agree with you.. I witnessed my friends Weimerana pups being docked (by a Vet)..

The pups did not even flinch.. they just wanted to carry on suckling


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## poppydoll (Dec 16, 2008)

For me personally I put tail docking on a par with declawing. Why would someone willingly amputate a part of an animal's anatomy for no proper medical reason. I just don't understand why people would want to do it to their animals but each to their own I guess.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> I feel that the majority of those that are against docking have little knowlege of working breeds and their jobs,pretty much the same as fox hunting the majority live in towns and have little knowlege of the countryside.
> 
> Tashi have you ever had any complications due to docking such as infection,pups dying etc ?


None whatsoever if we have any reservations over a weaker pup it is not docked but have never lost one due to docking but have lost one of the ones that I used to groom from NOT being docked due to infection setting in to a damaged tail


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't agree with docking if the dog isn't a show or working dog. There's a Boxer a couple of streets away from our house, and it has a tail, and it's so lovely to see! All bouncy and waggy. If there's a good reason to have it done... and the dog isn't in any pain, then I guess that's ok (still on the fence about it though!?) But otherwise, why not just let it be?


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I think we should still have tail docking.
> _*
> Some dogs look ridiculous with one!*_
> We dock all of ours as they usually go to wrorking homes.
> Also people that say it is cruel. The puppy yelps, yes. But after that no pain.


Sorry Patterdale but i completley disagree there...if a friend is ginger or dark haired would you tell them to colour your hair because they look 'ridiculous' if someone was wearing glasses would you tell them to get contacts?
No, but your quite happy to dock a dogs tail for this reason, what gives us humans the right to do as we pls with animals...this is cruelty in my opinion (unless working dogs such as spaniels - and it is done professional and for the right reasons) What would you think if someone decided to chop of a child's arm because it had too many moles on it for example...you'd be disgusted would you not!!?
Docking dogs tails for our personal vanity is appauling!

Again as stated before the above is not a personal attack on anyone is purely opinion!


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

"Very young animals are likely to feel more pain than older animals."

Quoted from Natik's article, those who assume the dog feels no pain are imo very naive.
Sallyanne, i live in the country and have a great knowledge of working docks, I have a spaniel, although not working - she is far too old, but i can completley agree with the tail, they hoover in line with their bodies and i can see where the danger can be. Which is why i have said for working dogs, i guess i agree with docking...but for all other reasons, worst being Vanity i think it is disgusting!! 
But as someone said above 'each to their own'


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> "Very young animals are likely to feel more pain than older animals."
> 
> Quoted from Natik's article, those who assume the dog feels no pain are imo very naive.
> Sallyanne, i live in the country and have a great knowledge of working docks, I have a spaniel, although not working - she is far too old, but i can completley agree with the tail, they hoover in line with their bodies and i can see where the danger can be. Which is why i have said for working dogs, i guess i agree with docking...but for all other reasons, worst being Vanity i think it is disgusting!!
> But as someone said above 'each to their own'


I agree,I think it's essential for working spaniels to be docked but within the law


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## StolenkissGerbils (Aug 8, 2008)

Natik said:


> Dog Tail Docking: Issues and Health Implications of Docking, whether on a Boxer or a Puppy


How funny that the photo at the top of this article, supposedly a docked tail, is a bulldog's naturally short tail! :mad2:

Anyone who knows a damn thing about the matter could see that's not a docked tail. Says a lot about the people who published that article doesn't it?


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't know if we are looking at the sam 'rear end' picture - BUT - if we are that does not look like a bulldog to me ??? not after an arguement - just curious
regards
DT


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

And how on earth can they say a puppy will feel more pain.. a puppy's tail at a few days old is just grissle snt it? So surely that would make it less painfull?!


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## StolenkissGerbils (Aug 8, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't know if we are looking at the sam 'rear end' picture - BUT - if we are that does not look like a bulldog to me ??? not after an arguement - just curious
> regards
> DT


http://www.k9obedience.co.uk/dogcare/ownership/dockedtail.jpg

That's the pic - maybe it's not a bulldog but it sure ain't docked. Look at the kink in it. That's a natural short tail.

This is a docked tail being held up:









And let drop down:









And more bulldog pictures with a similar tail and rear:
English bully - http://www.the-bulldog.com/bulldog-striker33.jpg
French bully - http://www.bullistikshowdogs.com/images/dallas.twoyears.jpg

Those bulldog tails aren't docked. But look how similar the tail on the Frenchie is to the tail on the original picture.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

They are not bulldogs their boxer dogs, and it is a docked tail


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

Natik said:


> a follow up from the other article
> 
> *The pro-docking lobby claim that puppies aged between 3-5 days old do not feel pain because their nervous systems and sensory organs are immature. This view lacks credibility especially as evidence given to the House of Commons Committee on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in 2004 by an expert from University of Birmingham Centre for Biomedical Ethics said:
> 
> ...





bee112 said:


> And how on earth can they say a puppy will feel more pain.. a puppy's tail at a few days old is just grissle snt it? So surely that would make it less painfull?!


In answer to your question read the above.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Natik said:


> Do i have to go to the vet now or watch a video online to be able to have an opinion?
> 
> And the fact that a dog has a nerve system in its tail isnt an assumption so i dont know where u coming from. U dont need a doctor telling u that cutting somewhere where a nerve system runs through is painfull :blink:
> Im sure we all had biology at school to know this basic things


Of course puppies have a nervous system Natik, you are quite right, and I personally, do not need to witness mutilation, just to prove that I have seen this barbaric procedure.

It is FACT pure and simple, backed up now by law, in that it is ILLEGAL to dock tails unless you have a working dog. A dogs tail is a vital part of its communication and to take that away to suit our requirements is WRONG. End of.


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## StolenkissGerbils (Aug 8, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> They are not bulldogs their boxer dogs, and it is a docked tail


Do you think I'm an idiot? The first link is an undocked bulldog, the second two embedded pics are docked Boxers (Walkon Monopoly and Ch Vasko van de Hazenberg), the last two are English and French Bulldogs.

Jesus Christ, do you think I know nothing? Perhaps you would like to quiz me on my knowledge of Boxers? I posted the pictures as EXAMPLES OF DOCKED TAILS, not bulldogs. Did I say ONCE that those two docked dogs were bulldogs? NO! So can you PLEASE READ and look at ALL the pictures before you make smartass remarks?

Thank you.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

Nina said:


> Of course puppies have a nervous system Natik, you are quite right, and I personally, do not need to witness mutilation, just to prove that I have seen this barbaric procedure.
> 
> It is FACT pure and simple, backed up now by law, in that it is ILLEGAL to dock tails unless you have a working dog. A dogs tail is a vital part of its communication and to take that away to suit our requirements is WRONG. End of.


_
*Clap Clap Clap*
Well said Nina - someone who speaks sense.
xXx
*( Hugs aswell for that ) *_


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

StolenkissGerbils said:


> Do you think I'm an idiot? The first link is an undocked bulldog, the second two embedded pics are docked Boxers (Walkon Monopoly and Ch Vasko van de Hazenberg), the last two are English and French Bulldogs.
> 
> Jesus Christ, do you think I know nothing? Perhaps you would like to quiz me on my knowledge of Boxers? I posted the pictures as EXAMPLES OF DOCKED TAILS, not bulldogs. Did I say ONCE that those two docked dogs were bulldogs? NO! So can you PLEASE READ and look at ALL the pictures before you make smartass remarks?
> 
> Thank you.


wooo excuse me for speaking!


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I don't know if we are looking at the sam 'rear end' picture - BUT - if we are that does not look like a bulldog to me ??? not after an arguement - just curious
> regards
> DT


I wasn't the only one to think it, so before you go shouting your ass of at me maybe you should read others replies!


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> They are not bulldogs their boxer dogs, and it is a docked tail


I also never directed my comment to you! I was stating a point!!! :mad5:


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## StolenkissGerbils (Aug 8, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> I wasn't the only one to think it, so before you go shouting your ass of at me maybe you should read others replies!


Perhaps you should take your own advice, read my reply to the post you just quoted, it was the post you made the comment on.

You didn't read all posts concerned in the matter before you started making criticisms. I will not be told by someone that I don't know a Boxer from a Bulldog. I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours studying the Boxer breed in detail you can't begin to imagine.

Go back, read the posts properly. Your post was obviously directed at me, as a response to the Boxer and bulldog pics I posted. Stop trying to backpedal.


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

StolenkissGerbils said:


> Perhaps you should take your own advice, read my reply to the post you just quoted, it was the post you made the comment on.
> 
> You didn't read all posts concerned in the matter before you started making criticisms. I will not be told by someone that I don't know a Boxer from a Bulldog. I have spent hundreds if not thousands of hours studying the Boxer breed in detail you can't begin to imagine.
> 
> Go back, read the posts properly. Your post was obviously directed at me, as a response to the Boxer and bulldog pics I posted. Stop trying to backpedal.


Iv got no reason to back peadal, but i never quoted you and replied i simply replied. I am a very keen boxer lover myself so don't think your the only one.
I posted comments on this thread long before you did so believe me i HAVE read all the posts.
Now lets agree to disagree because i am not intereted in arguing this over with you, the fact of the matter is docking tails not quibbling over pictures!! :mad2:


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think was ESS owners are trying to say when tthey get near to their pray/game they use their tails as much as their noses their tails go mad - which is not so much of a problem with docked dogs Full tails damaged whilst in undergrowth can cause major problems (apart from banging/spitting) with thorns and other hazards - when the tail is left the owner cannot often see any damage until absecces , sores cuts gashes etc etc are evident - we all know tails are slow to heal due to the blood supply.etc etc etc -
> 
> As for working JRT and other Terrier breeds - I have no comment - I am told that they often get bitten on their tails and this is the reason for docking.
> 
> ...


Not wanting to have the fianl say folks - it I did i' sure I wouldn't get it - but I think as others have said fair reason why CERTAIN working dogs do benifit from be docked. Hense i have quoted my previous message/beliefs.

Shall we call it a day on this folks?
regards
DT


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## Katie&Cody (Dec 4, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Not wanting to have the fianl say folks - it I did i' sure I wouldn't get it - but I think as others have said fair reason why CERTAIN working dogs do benifit from be docked. Hense i have quoted my previous message/beliefs.
> 
> Shall we call it a day on this folks?
> regards
> DT


i think we should, at the end of the day most are agreed on docking working dogs is required, and for vanity reasons it can be left disputed i think the majority think this is also wrong, but i find some people on here take things out of context and enjoy making an argument out of it, which is silly when the animals should be our main thoughts.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2008)

Katie&Riley said:


> I think we have preety much all agreed that for working reasons a dogs tail should be docked, all other reasons it shouldn't.


I totally agree.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Not wanting to have the fianl say folks - it I did i' sure I wouldn't get it - but I think as others have said fair reason why CERTAIN working dogs do benifit from be docked. Hense i have quoted my previous message/beliefs.
> 
> Shall we call it a day on this folks?
> regards
> DT


i agree........:thumbup:


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

:mad2::mad2: yes I think so.. none of us have changed our opinions and are all sticking by our own so.. :Yawn:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Not wanting to have the fianl say folks - it I did i' sure I wouldn't get it - but I think as others have said fair reason why CERTAIN working dogs do benifit from be docked. Hense i have quoted my previous message/beliefs.
> 
> Shall we call it a day on this folks?
> regards
> DT


*Well i'm glad about that.sitting on this fence is making my bum sore..*


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2008)

I have found this thread really interesting.
As most of you do not work your dogs or have any contact with working dogs, I find it very refreshing that the majority can see the benifite to the working spaniel.
I am so glad I joined this forum, because in general, people here seem to take on board others opinions and come up with a balanced view


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Well i'm glad about that.sitting on this fence is making my bum sore..*


Trouble with me Janice - I keep falling off the bl**fdy fing!:001_tt2:
lol
Babe


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Trouble with me Janice - I keep falling off the bl**fdy fing!:001_tt2:
> lol
> Babe


*pmsl Babe, oh so thats your excuse, did you bump ya head then?:lol::lol:*


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2008)

rona said:


> I have found this thread really interesting.
> As most of you do not work your dogs or have any contact with working dogs, I find it very refreshing that the majority can see the benifite to the working spaniel.
> I am so glad I joined this forum, because in general, people here seem to take on board others opinions and come up with a balanced view


Rona
If you read my explaination above I feel as though I have put it is the nicest possibble way sometimes when people do not know about things they see it as cruel - I myself have been guilty of such. I remember when I was about 13 we had a very old dog - it was dying and mum and dad made the final decision to end her pain and had her PTS - To me - that was cruel - and I called my mum the Murderer for months afterwards - now having been in that situation myself I understand what she did was best for the dog and not for herself.

Even earlier then that 1960 We had (the first dog I can remember) a dog called Trixie - she was a border cross lovely little thing, we lived on the old A46 which is now the A1 - we did have a large secure garden - but one morning at 7.30am ish the postie called - and left the gate ajar - the dog got out and was hit by a hoveringham lorry - her injuries were horrific - I can hear that dog screaming now - Obviously a mere child I was taken indoors - it was in the days when we didn't have cars at hand, we were in the country, and vets were not so available as they are today. To cut a long story short the farmer shot the dog - to put it out of it's misery. Obviously - as - I said earlier the injuries were horrific - but as a child I could not see them - all I could see was my dog lying in the road .

I hope I have not upset anyone with this - it is not my intention I have taken it to the extreme and I know it has no relevance on this thread - just trying to demonstrate that sometimes we have to be cruel to be kind.

I am now going to take my own advice and not pot on this thread anymore.
love to you all
regards
DT

By the way Rona - don't know why I bothered quoting you - ift was initially my intention to agree with you 
all the best - andpleased you hae joined the forum


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## JustABeginner (Dec 15, 2008)

I have to say, regardless of wether I think routine docking looks good, or is cruel, I am glad to see docking banned.

Sure, everyone on here is probably a very responsible dog owner. In an ideal world, you'd be able to choose wether or not you want to get your dog docked or not - its your animal, your preference. You'd get it done properly and professionally with minimal harm/pain done. Or, you'd keep your dog whole and as much 'as nature intended' as can be for a domestic animal.

Unfortunately, this world is so far from an ideal world its unfunny. In reality, there are swathes of irresponsible ****heads on this planet who do things like trying to home-dock tails using razorblades under unclean conditions with puppies bleeding to death, getting infections, being left with no control over their bowels and a lifetime of pain or discomfort. I personally know of a patterdale dog who's tail was home-docked by some plebhead, it now causes him some discomfort and he will not let anyone touch it.

It is unfortunate, but the few ruin it for the majority all over, its nothing new. Personally, I think its 'take one for the team' by not having the option of tail docking. Purely for the fact that no number of good-looking, well-docked dogs would EVER make up for the magnitude of suffering experienced by the few who are mutilated and tortured before being a week old by that proportion of the human population who really could do with being shot. True, there should have just been better legislation, greater penalties and better enforcement to prevent idiots from docking tails in retarded ways and punish those who have, but this is better than nothing in my opinion.


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## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Nina passes the savlon to Janice


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## ADA (May 30, 2009)

Original = born with tail not mutilated.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I agree with tail docking in the sense of working dogs
Our springers and cockers would be in alot more pain if they didn't have them docked
As for looks wise i do agree some look better with docked tails. But i guess everyone has to make do sometimes


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

i think tail docking is discusting, its not how we think the dogs look its how other dogs see them. Tails are an huge part of canine communication taking it away it like removing our speach. docked dogs are handicaped. 

The way i see it i wouldnt like it if aliens invaded, kept us as pets and decided we looked better with no thumbs or something. 

Its bad enough we breed stupid traits for vanity of inflict stupid cuts on them like pet poodles with shaved bums and pompom tails. it looks silly and its only useful if the dog is gonna be doing a lot of swimming. Dogs are not vain, they dont care how they look so why do we inflict these things on them. you should love your dog no matter what it looks like. would you use plastic surgery if your child was ugly?? doubt it!!!


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't agree with tail docking, there is a rottie in my area who has a tail and I think he looks gorgeous!!
However, in the case of some dogs, who can cause damage to their tails, I kind of think docking their tails is ok, especially if it will cause more pain for them to keep them.
However, dogs with full tails communicate better.


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## Agility Springer (Mar 15, 2009)

I voted against, but only in the case of purly cosmetic reasons, if it is for a working dog who stands to possibly damage their tail, then i agree.


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## alphadog (Jan 29, 2009)

100% against! 
Personally I think docked dogs look physically unbalanced and mutilated and in a communacative manner they are disadvantaged and can make other dogs feel uneasy. 
I for one am delighted about the ban and I'm pretty sure this fella is too (judging by how much he wags it!)...


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## Guest (May 30, 2009)

I am against tail docking unless they is a very good reason i dont agree with it just for the look..
IE if the dog has health problems that means the tail needs taking off or if the dog if going to a working home(not just because its breed from to working parents ONLY if it will be worked its sefl)
But each to our own 
kerry


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## C4L (May 29, 2009)

I agree with the law as it stands at present.


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

I dont agree with docking for cosmetic reasons, as well as canine communication. However I do see its place with working dogs to prevent injury


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

they need their tail to communicate to the dog


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Ive actually ticked on the fence in the poll, Ive had three springers, two at the moment. Out of the 3, 2 have been docked the ones i have now is molly 10mths she is docked and harvey 8years who isnt docked, to be honest i can understand working dogs being docked for safety reasons and ime for that, but for purely cosmetic reasons ime against it. Springers that are docked are not docked to little stubbs as they still need thair tails to work and are docked to different degrees mollys is not as short as montys was (only a little difference) as they like to keep if they can some white at the tip of the tail a flag so they can be seen in long grass over fields, at a distance so if the white is not as far down they tend to leave more tail to allow this to be seen. Ask for boxers, rotties i think the new tail docking law is good as theres in my opinion was docked for the wrong reasons and in no way does docking these breeds benefit them in the long run.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> I am against tail docking unless they is a very good reason i dont agree with it just for the look..
> IE if the dog has health problems that means the tail needs taking off or if the dog if going to a working home(not just because its breed from to working parents ONLY if it will be worked its sefl)
> But each to our own
> kerry


Its a difficult one this i understand what you are saying but pups by law have to be docked within the first 3 days, at that point the working dog in my case springers are from working stock advertised as such, but dont know wether they are going to go to owners that are going to work them or not.
Some are intended to work and doesnt always work out, also although we dont work ours they still go through the motions if you like it is instinctive, and could still end up with a damaged tail. As i said in my other post ive ticked on the fence on the pole as ime for the working breeds but not the none working.


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## judetheobscure (Feb 24, 2009)

Having read the entire thread  could someone explain to me the difference in the way Springer Spaniels and English Setters work? I was under the impression they both work the undergrowth flushing out game. So why do Springers have their tails docked but Setters keep their gorgeous tails?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Eolabeo said:


> i am not a breeder, even tho i have bred 2 great quality litters of bloodline bred dogs in the past, and im not a misguided person from breeds affected by this, im just a normal everyday person who does not disapprove of tail docking, simple as that.
> im a big animal lover an would not see no harm come to any animal but i trufully think that if done by a pro that there is nothing wrong with it.
> so plz dont say that coz we aggree wiv tail docking that we are in the wrong and dont care about animals, coz believe me, I DO.
> 
> if you read some of the post about why some of the people on here agree with tail docking then all i can say to those who disapprove of it after reading that is that they are just as bad as people who do agree with it, coz at the end of the day we all have our views on why we should and shouldnt dock tails, and both sides think our reasons why we should or shouldnt dock tails are the right reasons lol


I agree that some dogs should be docked i.e the working breeds if anyone who thinks this is an uncaring cruel attitude need to look at dogs that have had their tails mutilated out in the fields its really awful and if they can still say that they are oppose to it, they are the uncaring ones.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

noubi said:


> you really are talking crap, i have had first hand experience with this where a very good friend of mine had a litter docked (against any opinion of mine) everyone screamed they all got infections and the mother rejected them, brilliant start in life


The pain you mention is very true, a friend of ours who is a breeder told us when we went to see our latest pup that the vet said to him they will scream for about 10 seconds, so yes they do feel pain, but nothing like the ongoing pain they feel when their tails are torn to bits when working and have seen this. Thats why i voted to sit on the fence as i can see the point to 10 seconds of pain in comparison for working dogs but i totaly dissagree with causing the pain however short for cosmetic reasons alone.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

This is my opinion.... I don't agree with tail docking. I don't see why we should mutilate another living being for our own purposes or just for aethesetic reasons. If dogs weren't meant to have tails then they wouldn't. Someone told me police/military do it so the dogs tail don't get damaged/ hung onto by criminals etc but they use GSD's and they have tails???  

I personally think all ''traditionally docked'' dogs really do look better with their beautiful tails.

Dogs should only be docked for medical reasons. Other that that i think they should be left alone to grow as as they should without us humans intervening in such a horrible way.

If i was planning on buying a breed that is ''traditionally docked'' i would have searched high and low for a good breeder that leaves them as they should be. I would also pay more if thats what it took. But thankfully it is *banned* (it should be completely banned like Scotland)

To me its the same as ear cropping. Taking parts of dogs bodies off to suit us. Ears can also get injured, caught in shrubbery, bitten by other animals ( i.e rats for terriers) hung onto by criminals etc etc 



*sorry for the long post i haven't been on for ages so its all coming out!!!*


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

judetheobscure said:


> Having read the entire thread  could someone explain to me the difference in the way Springer Spaniels and English Setters work? I was under the impression they both work the undergrowth flushing out game. So why do Springers have their tails docked but Setters keep their gorgeous tails?


Ime waiting for someone to answer this because i really dont know why, someone will be along


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

its so confusing that some breeders claim the pups feel no pain and there are those who admit that the pups feel pain.... one side is either fooling themselves or is not telling the entire truth


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> its so confusing that some breeders claim the pups feel no pain and there are those who admit that the pups feel pain.... one side is either fooling themselves or is not telling the entire truth


or could it be oneside does it wrong!!! that why it's righly only done by vet's now


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

christine c said:


> or could it be oneside does it wrong!!! that why it's righly only done by vet's now


so u say the ones done by vets are feeling no pain? even though they have a normal developed nervesystem in their tails?


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> so u say the ones done by vets are feeling no pain? even though they have a normal developed nervesystem in their tails?


they have a local anasetic.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

christine c said:


> they have a local anasetic.


thats not what i heard.... breeders say its done without anesthaetic as the anesthaetic could harm the pups


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

When i was involved in tail docking, no anaesthetic was used, the puppies screamed and looked to me like they felt pain.

The dew claw removal seemed not to bother them though.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> thats not what i heard.... breeders say its done without anesthaetic as the anesthaetic could harm the pups


Well i can only speak for my vet's and they do.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

christine c said:


> Well i can only speak for my vet's and they do.


why a vet would risk the potentional side effect of anesthaetic on 3 days old pups is beyond me tbh


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> why a vet would risk the potentional side effect of anesthaetic on 3 days old pups is beyond me tbh


A local anaesthetic carries little risk.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> A local anaesthetic carries little risk.


so why is it so unusuall to use anesthathic during tail docking?


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> so why is it so unusuall to use anesthathic during tail docking?


erm i don't think it is.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> so why is it so unusuall to use anesthathic during tail docking?


The only reason i can think of is cost. Or the opinion that tail docking doesnt hurt, therefore a local anaesthetic isnt needed.

Im not a docking fan myself, even for working dogs (especially terriers).


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

christine c said:


> erm i don't think it is.


well, im differently informed then


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> The only reason i can think of is cost. Or the opinion that tail docking doesnt hurt, therefore a local anaesthetic isnt needed.
> 
> Im not a docking fan myself, even for working dogs (especially terriers).


both reasons arent really a plus point for any reputable breeder then ...


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> The only reason i can think of is cost. Or the opinion that tail docking doesnt hurt, therefore a local anaesthetic isnt needed.
> 
> Im not a docking fan myself, even for working dogs (especially terriers).


I wouldn't work my cocker or springer if they had tail's on the shoot's i go on they would be ripped to to pieces and i feel that would be wicked i love my dog's far too much to let that happen when i no it could be prevented. wouldn't have it done if they were only pet's.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

christine c said:


> I wouldn't work my cocker or springer if they had tail's on the shoot's i go on they would be ripped to to pieces and i feel that would be wicked i love my dog's far too much to let that happen when i no it could be prevented. wouldn't have it done if they were only pet's.


Docking will always be an emotive subject.

Having been heavily involved in hunting and shooting from a young age, i hate blood "sports" aswell, so my opinion on this matter is very biased.

I dont think people with working dogs that are docked are cruel at all, everyone has the right to protect the health of their animal, im just dubious as to how much protection docking gives. Yes tails get damaged, my dog has cut his tail numerous times on walks as he goes through the bush, but the situation usually looks worse than it is.

Im also curious as to why some working breeds are docked, and some arent, especially when they do the same or similar job, in the same environmental conditions.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Docking will always be an emotive subject.
> 
> Having been heavily involved in hunting and shooting from a young age, i hate blood "sports" aswell, so my opinion on this matter is very biased.
> 
> ...


I'm not very good at explaining thing's very well:crazy:.There are two or three people here that word it so much better than me. but your almost there when you say similar job's. differet breed's really do work different even if they do the same job, that's probly no help to you what so ever


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

christine c said:


> or could it be oneside does it wrong!!! that why it's righly only done by vet's now


It was done by a vet as its ellegal even for the breeds that are exempt from the ban to be done by anyone but a vet, and he said they screamed not for the 10 seconds the vet said hey might but the did feel it.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> It was done by a vet as its ellegal even for the breeds that are exempt from the ban to be done by anyone but a vet, and he said they screamed not for the 10 seconds the vet said hey might but the did feel it.


sorry was replying to some oneelse! Everyone yhat i no have l a but to be honest i'd still have it done My dog's and my childen have all thier jab's done! human and dog's some shout some don't. But they still have them coz it's for there own good


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

Here's my opinion on this. I have owned Rotties for several years now and my 1st one had a docked tail. He communicated perfectly well when happy would wag his stump. We then had a litter of Rotties 3 years ago so my husband had them docked as it was still legal. If it wasn't illegal and i intended to have an other litter, which i don't by the way, i would never ever do it again. They do feel pain and were very upset and uncomfortable for days afterwards. Yes the vet did it right he breeds rotties himself. Also 2 had to go back an hour later as mum had licked their stumps that much they were bleeding. I own a 10 month old Rottie now and he has a tail and doesn't look stupid at all.


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

My take on this is ....

Certain breeds look better without a tail,
we have had Dobes now for 30yrs & i think it spoils the sleek outline of the breed :yesnod:
i see nothing wrong in banding the tails as this does not hurt or harm them its no different to the way they do sheeps tails  yet no one thinks thats cruel,

the breed standard allways said the dobes tail should be a continuation of the spine & now undocked it curls over its back


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## Guest (May 31, 2009)

judetheobscure said:


> Having read the entire thread  could someone explain to me the difference in the way Springer Spaniels and English Setters work? I was under the impression they both work the undergrowth flushing out game. So why do Springers have their tails docked but Setters keep their gorgeous tails?





Nonnie said:


> Docking will always be an emotive subject.
> 
> Having been heavily involved in hunting and shooting from a young age, i hate blood "sports" aswell, so my opinion on this matter is very biased.
> 
> ...


The reason for certain breeds needing to be docked while other are not is usually due to the action of the tail and the type of cover they are required to work in.
I did have a chat with someone on here a while back who worked their spaniel with a full tail, but the type of cover it worked was very different to the heavy bramble cover that most work through here


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

rona said:


> The reason for certain breeds needing to be docked while other are not is usually due to the action of the tail and the type of cover they are required to work in.
> I did have a chat with someone on here a while back who worked their spaniel with a full tail, but the type of cover it worked was very different to the heavy bramble cover that most work through here


Ye that makes sense, do you mean like labs they dont have theirs docked is that for the same reason?


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Like i said before medical reasons fine, some working dogs fine, vanity not fine. 


Those of you that have said you would do it on certain breeds because they look better would you do this to a child. give it a nose job becasue a certain type of nose would do it better. Doubt it!!!!!! Its sick!!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

haeveymolly said:


> Ye that makes sense, do you mean like labs they dont have theirs docked is that for the same reason?


They do a totally different job in the field to a spaniel, a spaniel is used for flushing the game and working through the undergrowth and thickets, Retrievers are used for just that. They also have a different way of wagging their tails when working


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Medical/working reasons fine, just because a rottie looks better with a docked tail no. I hate the way they look docked anyway I prefer the younger dogs I'm starting to see with tails.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

tashi said:


> They do a totally different job in the field to a spaniel, a spaniel is used for flushing the game and working through the undergrowth and thickets, Retrievers are used for just that. They also have a different way of wagging their tails when working


I have springers, dont work them but one of them wags his tail 2 ways the normal quick wagging side to side but then he runs into the fields and i swear he's going to take off hus tail looks like a rotor blade round and round in a circle.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

haeveymolly said:


> I have springers, dont work them but one of them wags his tail 2 ways the normal quick wagging side to side but then he runs into the fields and i swear he's going to take off hus tail looks like a rotor blade round and round in a circle.


So can you imagine that in a thicket and heavy bramble damage is unbelievable


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

haeveymolly said:


> I have springers, dont work them but one of them wags his tail 2 ways the normal quick wagging side to side but then he runs into the fields and i swear he's going to take off hus tail looks like a rotor blade round and round in a circle.


i love it when their tails do that. so cute,. our ridgebacks does it and im sure the rotties would too if he had a tail. poor thing


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Eolabeo said:


> as long as they are docked by a professional i don't see the problem.
> 
> some dogs that are meant to have docked tails now look a right site for sore eyes with their tails on, some of the tails are proper bushy, the boxer, old eng sheepdogs , rotty and others besides looked way better with docked tails.


No dogs are 'meant' to have docked tails. If they are born with tails, they are meant to have tails. Tails are there for balance and communication. I think rotties, boxers, dobermans and spaniels look much better with them. Just because humans have historically cut them off for their own 'taste' or convenience is no reason to continue this practice. And to the person who thinks putting a rubber band on that is so tight it blocks the blood supply is painless, I would suggest they have one on their finger for a few days. See if that hurts!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

colacooler said:


> Puppies don't feel the pain, they havent developed the nervous pain system.


Less than a hundred years ago it was believed that children with Downs syndrome didn't feel pain, and they too were forced to undergo surgery without anaesthetic. The sensation of pain and the ability to demonstrate it are different things.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

all animals are born able to feel pain.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> all animals are born able to feel pain.


well we all know that. I take it your saying it's better to dock so they don't have to suffer week's or even month's of pain!!


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

no. it was in reply to the above post about tail docking not causing pain if done young because their nerves wernt completly developed. all animals are born ready to feel pain so of course it hurts when you chop bits of their body off.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> no. it was in reply to the above post about tail docking not causing pain if done young because their nerves wernt completly developed. all animals are born ready to feel pain so of course it hurts when you chop bits of their body off.


oh right that's why it's best to qoute


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

yeah forgot in my rush to be opinionated. lol


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

and again. oops


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

cassie01 said:


> yeah forgot in my rush to be opinionated. lol


I do it all the time or qoute the wrong person


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Sorry but if the dog is not working (when you can sort of understand the docking) then yes it looks weird/not right but thats only what we're used to seeing, the past few months I have seen a boxer, rottie and doberman all with tales and I had to second glance or ask what they were, and do you know they looked lovely and you could tell at a glance how they were feeling.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

If it is ok to dock 'working' dogs like Springers and cockers etc just because going through bushes/shrubbery can damage a tail then why do we keep the ears whole???? I have known a few dogs that have damaged ears due to going into bushes and have got entangled, have had tears, cuts etc etc

I can't understand it, could someone please fill me in??? 

And why dock police/military Rotties, Dobies, Boxers etc but yet leave a GSD's normal???

People only say they look better because unfortunately thats what they have been used to seeing.

'Breed Standards' did say that Dobie's etc tails had to be in line with their spine but thats because people 'traditionally' docked them. If they never had then the breed standard would have said about it having a curl to it!!

I don't know i kind of give up on debates like this!! I will never agree to it, i will always think they look better the way their born!! With everything intact!! Humans need to stop doing this sort of thing to other living creatures.......


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> If it is ok to dock 'working' dogs like Springers and cockers etc just because going through bushes/shrubbery can damage a tail then why do we keep the ears whole???? I have known a few dogs that have damaged ears due to going into bushes and have got entangled, have had tears, cuts etc etc
> 
> I can't understand it, could someone please fill me in???
> 
> ...


shaniel's long ear's are the to protect the inner ear. I'e seen a few police springer's with long tail's. My friend has a springer pup from the police with a tail. if this was a hunting forum the pole would look a lot different! But have to say it would have bin a clear'er pole coz it would only be working dog's. which i strongely agree with. But i also just as strongely disagree with docking of pet's


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

just a random thought of mine but if the spaniel is prone to damage its tail because of the work its doing then surely its not suitable to do such work ... Dogs are meant to be bred and not to be cut to suit the work ....

...just a thought of mine lol


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Natik said:


> just a random thought of mine but if the spaniel is prone to damage its tail because of the work its doing then surely its not suitable to do such work ... Dogs are meant to be bred and not to be cut to suit the work ....
> 
> ...just a thought of mine lol


you could right who no's as i've said i wouldn't work my dog's withtail's.


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## judetheobscure (Feb 24, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I have springers, dont work them but one of them wags his tail 2 ways the normal quick wagging side to side but then he runs into the fields and i swear he's going to take off hus tail looks like a rotor blade round and round in a circle.


So are we saying that the only difference between setters and spaniels is the way they move their tails? Because as far as I can tell the kind of ground they work is the same.

So we should be looking to breed spaniels that don't do the rotor blade effect, as Natik suggests.


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## jessiegirl (Apr 24, 2009)

i think its so wrong! and cruel. dogs were meant to have tails!!


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

tashi said:


> So can you imagine that in a thicket and heavy bramble damage is unbelievable


I can understand it thats why ime all for these breeds being docked ime under no illusion that its all painless etc, but i know its a lot more painfull and for a lot longer if they are damaged i have heard of working dogs having to go through amputation when they are damaged so bad.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

christine c said:


> shaniel's long ear's are the to protect the inner ear. I'e seen a few police springer's with long tail's. My friend has a springer pup from the police with a tail. if this was a hunting forum the pole would look a lot different! But have to say it would have bin a clear'er pole coz it would only be working dog's. which i strongely agree with. But i also just as strongely disagree with docking of pet's


One of my springers has a full tail its beautifull but not practical, he doesnt work but has had i damaged a few times, the only way i can protect it a little is when he is cut i have the tail left a little thicker then i did ours with the dock. You are right about the ears i ask someone this once saying how silly and unpractical spanoels ears are for the job they do love enmtho i couls stroke them little rugs all day long and he said just the oposite they protect the ears from being damaged, clever things arnt they.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

judetheobscure said:


> So are we saying that the only difference between setters and spaniels is the way they move their tails? Because as far as I can tell the kind of ground they work is the same.
> 
> So we should be looking to breed spaniels that don't do the rotor blade effect, as Natik suggests.


Dont know if thats the only difference i know very little about the logistics of working springers or spaniels, mine are from working stock but we dont work them.


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> No dogs are 'meant' to have docked tails. If they are born with tails, they are meant to have tails. Tails are there for balance and communication. I think rotties, boxers, dobermans and spaniels look much better with them. Just because humans have historically cut them off for their own 'taste' or convenience is no reason to continue this practice.
> 
> And to the person who thinks putting a rubber band on that is so tight it blocks the blood supply is painless, I would suggest they have one on their finger for a few days. See if that hurts!


That would be me then :biggrin5: 
the banding is done when the pups dont know any different ,
ive seen it done & ive been in contact with the pups daily it does not hurt or harm them in any way, it dosen't even cause them discomfort they simply wither up & drop off :rolleyes5:

and if farmers can carry on doing it to lambs whats the difference between pups & lambs if its cruel then why allow lambs to be done :confused5:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

isadobe said:


> That would be me then :biggrin5:
> the banding is done when the pups dont know any different ,
> ive seen it done & ive been in contact with the pups daily it does not hurt or harm them in any way, it dosen't even cause them discomfort they simply wither up & drop off :rolleyes5:
> 
> and if farmers can carry on doing it to lambs whats the difference between pups & lambs if its cruel then why allow lambs to be done :confused5:


Lambs are done to prevent flystrike. When dealing with herds of 100's of animals, it would be impossible for a farmer to monitor every individual. As flystrike can kill, the removal of the tail is done purely for the health and welfare of the animal.

Docking in non-working dogs is purely cosmetic, and imo, you cant really compare the two situations.


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Lambs are done to prevent flystrike. When dealing with herds of 100's of animals, it would be impossible for a farmer to monitor every individual. As flystrike can kill, the removal of the tail is done purely for the health and welfare of the animal.
> 
> Docking in non-working dogs is purely cosmetic, and imo, you cant really compare the two situations.


im not so much comparing why its done,
simply that its not cruel to do it, if as people say it hurts puppies then dose it not matter that it hurts lambs


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

isadobe said:


> im not so much comparing why its done,
> simply that its not cruel to do it, if as people say it hurts puppies then dose it not matter that it hurts lambs


Apparently the suffering that farm animals have to endure doesnt matter.

I grew up on a sheep farm, and imo, it IS cruel. But is only one aspect of a very cruel industry.

They band the testicles of male lambs aswell.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

isadobe said:


> That would be me then :biggrin5:
> the banding is done when the pups dont know any different ,
> ive seen it done & ive been in contact with the pups daily it does not hurt or harm them in any way, it dosen't even cause them discomfort they simply wither up & drop off :rolleyes5:
> 
> and if farmers can carry on doing it to lambs whats the difference between pups & lambs if its cruel then why allow lambs to be done :confused5:


Occasionally humans are born with an extra finger. Presumably you would find it OK to band one until it dropped off, as a newborn baby "don't know any different". 
You say banding doesn't hurt or harm puppies. Were you monitoring the levels of their stress hormones and endorphins? I doubt it. It is instinctual in pack predators, or herbivores that can be preyed upon, to bear any pain without demonstrating it. The reason is that if they draw attention to themselves they risk being turned on, rejected and killed in the case of pack predators, or selected as weak and targeted as prey for the herbivores.

There was an outcry in Australia a few years back about the treatment of Merino sheep. They have very fine wool and valuable fleeces. Farmers had been breeding them with looser skin to make a bigger fleece and more profit. Folds in the skin were getting infected and flies going in, all maggoty - the farmers were cutting out the sections of infection, no anaesthetic, stitching up afterwards, and claiming the sheep weren't hurt because they didn't react the way the farmers thought they should. Herbivores just don't display pain like people do! As part of the coverage, there was monitoring of stress hormones and endorphins, leading to clear evidence that sheep _do_ feel pain as much as any animal, just don't show it.


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## rebenda (Jan 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> Occasionally humans are born with an extra finger. Presumably you would find it OK to band one until it dropped off, as a newborn baby "don't know any different".
> You say banding doesn't hurt or harm puppies. Were you monitoring the levels of their stress hormones and endorphins? I doubt it. It is instinctual in pack predators, or herbivores that can be preyed upon, to bear any pain without demonstrating it. The reason is that if they draw attention to themselves they risk being turned on, rejected and killed in the case of pack predators, or selected as weak and targeted as prey for the herbivores.
> 
> There was an outcry in Australia a few years back about the treatment of Merino sheep. They have very fine wool and valuable fleeces. Farmers had been breeding them with looser skin to make a bigger fleece and more profit. Folds in the skin were getting infected and flies going in, all maggoty - the farmers were cutting out the sections of infection, no anaesthetic, stitching up afterwards, and claiming the sheep weren't hurt because they didn't react the way the farmers thought they should. Herbivores just don't display pain like people do! As part of the coverage, there was monitoring of stress hormones and endorphins, leading to clear evidence that sheep _do_ feel pain as much as any animal, just don't show it.


Agree with you! i just cant understand the humans that say well they look better like this like that!!get over yourselves the animals born with a tail for a reason, yes ok if the animal is a working animal and you can prove that its a working dog for example then you can get the tail docks, amputation under anasthetic, i just cant understand the human brain sometimes when saying dont show any pain a puppy doesnt know any different! give me strength animals hide pain for a reason.

this was something i were talking to the vets at work with apparently they are possibly linking tail docking with probs with the urinary tract but still being researched but until any probs proven hey al just go band my dogs tail coz im sick of how it looks.....


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

lol. The only species that shows pain is humans. because we are weak, pathetic and have no danger of being eaten if we show it, animals will only show it when they are on their way out or it really is very very very painful. 

Arent humans crap really.


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> Occasionally humans are born with an extra finger. Presumably you would find it OK to band one until it dropped off, as a newborn baby "don't know any different".
> You say banding doesn't hurt or harm puppies. Were you monitoring the levels of their stress hormones and endorphins? I doubt it. It is instinctual in pack predators, or herbivores that can be preyed upon, to bear any pain without demonstrating it. The reason is that if they draw attention to themselves they risk being turned on, rejected and killed in the case of pack predators, or selected as weak and targeted as prey for the herbivores.
> 
> There was an outcry in Australia a few years back about the treatment of Merino sheep. They have very fine wool and valuable fleeces. Farmers had been breeding them with looser skin to make a bigger fleece and more profit. Folds in the skin were getting infected and flies going in, all maggoty - the farmers were cutting out the sections of infection, no anaesthetic, stitching up afterwards, and claiming the sheep weren't hurt because they didn't react the way the farmers thought they should. Herbivores just don't display pain like people do! As part of the coverage, there was monitoring of stress hormones and endorphins, leading to clear evidence that sheep _do_ feel pain as much as any animal, just don't show it.


Ooh ffs take it to the extreme why dont you 
this topic is about dogs tails not babies fingers :rolleyes5:

no i didnt monitor their stress levels i was there when it was done the mother of the pups was there when it was done & she didnt show any signs of concern or aggression towards the vet so in my mind no harm was done .

its all about peoples preferences & i personaly think that certain breeds look better without a tail,

so if my opinion isn't yours well so be it ..


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

rebenda said:


> Agree with you! i just cant understand the humans that say well they look better like this like that!!get over yourselves the animals born with a tail for a reason, yes ok if the animal is a working animal and you can prove that its a working dog for example then you can get the tail docks, amputation under anasthetic, i just cant understand the human brain sometimes when saying dont show any pain a puppy doesnt know any different! give me strength animals hide pain for a reason.
> 
> this was something i were talking to the vets at work with apparently they are possibly linking tail docking with probs with the urinary tract but still being researched but until any probs proven hey al just go band my dogs tail coz im sick of how it looks.....


so your saying its ok to do it under anasthetic when they are older & that afterwards they are not in any discomfort ? dont make me laugh, its much better & easier to do it when they are just days old ..


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

isadobe said:


> its all about peoples preferences & i personaly think that certain breeds look better without a tail,
> 
> ..


and thats the whole problem....its not about the dogs at all and its them being mutilated without being able to do anything about it


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

Natik said:


> and thats the whole problem....its not about the dogs at all and its them being mutilated without being able to do anything about it


But why the big outcry now ?
its gone on for centuries & the breed standard of certain dogs was stipulated that they had their tails docked,
in years gone by yes there were some who done it & it was done in a barbaric & i would not support that method but i do not see what is wrong in banding a pups tail ..


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

isadobe said:


> But why the big outcry now ?
> its gone on for centuries & the breed standard of certain dogs was stipulated that they had their tails docked,
> in years gone by yes there were some who done it & it was done in a barbaric & i would not support that method but i do not see what is wrong in banding a pups tail ..


its painfull for the pup, it has no advantages in pet dogs, its only done to satisfy the human selfishness and eye for fashion (and yes, i do believe those who dock pet dogs are just the same as those who breed dogs for fashion) and i believe its not the best first experience in such a short life, the dog has no choice (and im sure if it would have it would say "no") ...that might be a few of the reasons .... and im sure there are more reasons
also it can cause future discomfort for the dog and other problems


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

isadobe said:


> But why the big outcry now ?
> its gone on for centuries & the breed standard of certain dogs was stipulated that they had their tails docked,
> in years gone by yes there were some who done it & it was done in a barbaric & i would not support that method but i do not see what is wrong in banding a pups tail ..


We used to fight dogs aswell, but as our understanding of animal needs and welfare have improved, so has the way we treat our animals. We are better at deciding whats right and wrong, and putting the animal BEFORE ourselves.

Dobes used to have their ears cropped traditionally, would you like this to still happen?

Not to mention that breed standards change all the time to fit what humans think are desired appearances in dogs. Look at pictures from centuries ago, and compare them to the same breed now. Things change, its called progress.


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> We used to fight dogs aswell, but as our understanding of animal needs and welfare have improved, so has the way we treat our animals. We are better at deciding whats right and wrong, and putting the animal BEFORE ourselves.
> 
> Dobes used to have their ears cropped traditionally, would you like this to still happen?
> 
> Not to mention that breed standards change all the time to fit what humans think are desired appearances in dogs. Look at pictures from centuries ago, and compare them to the same breed now. Things change, its called progress.


No i dont go along with the fighting,
some countries do still crop ears & i like them cropped 
i have looked at pics from centuries ago & i know things change but i still stand in saying some breeds look better without a tail


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

My mother has a GSD/Doberman with a GSD tail. It's massive and she hurts herself and others. In her case I think it would have been better if her tail had been docked (like my mother's JR) but otherwise I don't agree with it.

I'm sure we'll learn to live with their tails


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> My mother has a GSD/Doberman with a GSD tail. It's massive and she hurts herself and others. In her case I think it would have been better if her tail had been docked (like my mother's JR) but otherwise I don't agree with it.
> 
> I'm sure we'll learn to live with their tails


my gsd slapped me yesterday with his tail and my cheek turned red...im sure this could have been prevented by docking


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> my gsd slapped me yesterday with his tail and my cheek turned red...im sure this could have been prevented by docking


OUCH! Bet that was painful! Yes, they do have very large tails and hurt when they whip you, my GSD is the same and she's only 7 months lol


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sequeena said:


> OUCH! Bet that was painful! Yes, they do have very large tails and hurt when they whip you, my GSD is the same and she's only 7 months lol


he also likes to use it as a giant brush .... brushing all the glasses and things from the tables and sofas onto the floor hihi


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Natik said:


> he also likes to use it as a giant brush .... brushing all the glasses and things from the tables and sofas onto the floor hihi


At least yours helps you clean, mine like to leave dirty paw prints and sand eveywhere and run off! :scared:


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2009)

isadobe said:


> No i dont go along with the fighting,
> some countries do still crop ears & i like them cropped
> i have looked at pics from centuries ago & i know things change but i still stand in saying some breeds look better without a tail


I must admit to being absolutely stunned by this statement, and I am in the group of people who believe that docking for some working dogs is ok.
I wish you could actually explain why you think it is acceptable to amputate a part of an animal just for cosmetic reasons.
This is a genuine statement, not an attack on you personally


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## isadobe (Mar 16, 2009)

rona said:


> I must admit to being absolutely stunned by this statement, and I am in the group of people who believe that docking for some working dogs is ok.
> I wish you could actually explain why you think it is acceptable to amputate a part of an animal just for cosmetic reasons.
> This is a genuine statement, not an attack on you personally


rona i said i liked the look of them with ears cropped i didnt say i agreed with it ,

now im confused by your statement why is it ok to dock some & not others they all go through the same procedure


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

isadobe said:


> rona i said i liked the look of them with ears cropped i didnt say i agreed with it ,
> 
> now im confused by your statement why is it ok to dock some & not others they all go through the same procedure


Rona thinks the same as me it is cruel when you think of putting any animal through pain but like i have said i agree with certain breeds being docked i have springers and i agree with them being docked as its so dangerous when they are working, although we dont work ours but i have seen working dogs with tails mutilated and believe me its not nice


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Maybe we should keep this on topic and not get into personal attacks.
> 
> My mother has a GSD/Doberman with a GSD tail. It's massive and she hurts herself and others. In her case I think it would have been better if her tail had been docked (like my mother's JR) but otherwise I don't agree with it.
> 
> I'm sure we'll learn to live with their tails


Thats like saying of my dog scratches me with his nails, i should remove them.

Yes it hurts if you get slapped by a tail, however its not a major injury and should not be used as a justification for removing the tail of an animal.

I dont agree with docking, but i am content with the law as it stands.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Yeah I wouldn't dream of cutting a dogs tail off just because its really long and hits me by accident or knocks things off tables etc.


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## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

Im sure there are dogs out there that are offended by their lack of tails. I was just trying to get my point accross that dail docking for vanity is the same as plastic surgery for people but the dogs dont get a choice.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Thats like saying of my dog scratches me with his nails, i should remove them.
> 
> Yes it hurts if you get slapped by a tail, however its not a major injury and should not be used as a justification for removing the tail of an animal.
> 
> I dont agree with docking, but i am content with the law as it stands.


It's not anything like that  I feel like you've completely twisted my words when all I did was make an example.

No wonder people feel afraid to voice their opinions on here if this is what happens.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sequeena said:


> It's not anything like that  I feel like you've completely twisted my words when all I did was make an example.
> 
> No wonder people feel afraid to voice their opinions on here if this is what happens.





> My mother has a GSD/Doberman with a GSD tail. It's massive and she hurts herself and others. In her case I think it would have been better if her tail had been docked


How have i twisted anything?

Im sorry if i have caused offence, but that is how i read your post.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> How have i twisted anything?
> 
> Im sorry if i have caused offence, but that is how i read your post.


I only wanted to point out the fact that she was hurting herself, so perhaps it would have been better if her tail had been docked. I don't understand why you tried to compare it to declawing which I do not agree with whatsoever 

I'm sorry if I took your post in the wrong way, there are a lot of emotions running high here and I think it's time I step away before I'm dragged into even more x


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I only wanted to point out the fact that she was hurting herself, so perhaps it would have been better if her tail had been docked. I don't understand why you tried to compare it to declawing which I do not agree with whatsoever
> 
> I'm sorry if I took your post in the wrong way, there are a lot of emotions running high here and I think it's time I step away before I'm dragged into even more x


Dont do that, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I have misread your post, i thought you meant the tail was hurting your mother, not the actual dog. My fault, not yours.

Was it very bad damage? A greyhound i used to look after loved to stand in the doorway and wag his tail. He ended up having a few inches amputated. I also know someone with a SBT mix who did the same. Tails bleed like no tomorrow, even from the smallest of wounds, but they also dont heal well because of the constant movement and the fact they hit everything with them.

Maybe it would have been better for your mums dog to be docked, but theres no way of forseeing the future and knowing if, and what, damage a dog is going to do. Its just one of those things you have to deal with, should a problem arise.

Again, i apologise if i have upset you.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Dont do that, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> 
> I have misread your post, i thought you meant the tail was hurting your mother, not the actual dog. My fault, not yours.
> 
> ...


That's okay  I blame the heat for getting me so worked up 

I'll have to get a photo but Sheba's tail is quite thick and very long (if Dobermans had longer tails maybe that's what it would be like?). She often whacks herself in the face or will get it caught in something. Thankfully there hasn't been too much damage!

I'll pass the advice on to my mother, she's disabled and she might feel amputating a few inches would be the best thing to do for everyone involved.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

reopened please keep on topic and no nastiness


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

isadobe said:


> Ooh ffs take it to the extreme why dont you
> this topic is about dogs tails not babies fingers :rolleyes5:
> 
> no i didnt monitor their stress levels i was there when it was done the mother of the pups was there when it was done & she didnt show any signs of concern or aggression towards the vet so in my mind no harm was done .
> ...


BY making a polemical argument I was hoping to put your views into a different context and get you to think about them more deeply than you seem to have done so far. But when you come back and say 'its all about people's preferences' I see there is no point. You clearly see dogs as commodities to be altered or mutilated to suit your aesthetic.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> BY making a polemical argument I was hoping to put your views into a different context and get you to think about them more deeply than you seem to have done so far. But when you come back and say 'its all about people's preferences' I see there is no point. You clearly see dogs as commodities to be altered or mutilated to suit your aesthetic.


I brought my working springer and cocker with thier tail's docked so they don't get mutilated. this thread seem's to have gone away from tail docking anyway.


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## ADA (May 30, 2009)

Meaning of Mutilate:-
*To deprive *of a limb *or an essential part;* cripple.
To *disfigure by damaging irreparably*: mutilate a statue. 
*To make imperfect by excising or altering parts*.

Ipso facto - docking = mutilation


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2009)

ADA said:


> Meaning of Mutilate:-
> *To deprive *of a limb *or an essential part;* cripple.
> To *disfigure by damaging irreparably*: mutilate a statue.
> *To make imperfect by excising or altering parts*.
> ...


Agreed!! 

I am very happy docking has been banned as far as pets are concerned. I cannot comment on working dogs as I dont know enough to have much of a view on this. It seems that there may be very good reason for docking the working ones.

Otherwise for pets whats the point of mutilating them? Tails are important for balance and socialisation (effective communication with fellow dogs), which is a particularly important thing for breeds like rottie I would think.
I am delighted that rotties are gonna get their tail back LOL and I will one day get one with a full tail, which is how they should always have been (as pets)!! 
And as it has been pointed out; those that dont like the look of it; well tough!  lol


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## ADA (May 30, 2009)

> '...... It is well recognised in women that the risk of developing genuine stress incontinence (GSI) is related to pelvic floor muscle damage during labour. In the bitch the equivalent 'pelvic floor' muscles are the levator ani and coccygeus muscles both of which attach to the tail base, and it is possible that these muscles are atrophied and/or damaged in docked breeds reducing urethral resistance. A similar relationship may exist between tail docking and submissive urinary incontinence in puppies.Holt and Thrusfield (1993)......'


_reference_: Cosmetic Tail Docking of Dogs Tails. Robert K Wansbrough

The Anti-Docking Alliance Web Site in the UK = Home Page


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