# Honest opinions please



## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm starting to think long and hard as to what will be best for Daisy. I've spent all day today sat by the bathroom watching Daisy, Rosie and Dylan with the bonding. Dylan and Rosie are getting on great and the bonding is going better than expected but its meant I've seen more into how Daisy is behaving.

With her weeing I've noticed she doesn't seem incontinent to the point that she dribbles slightly now and then but she doesn't seem to know when she's weeing. She'll be stood normally and suddenly start to wee, now you guys know rabbits generally go to a corner or the same place to toilet. When she goes she leaves a normal size puddle on the floor and nothing looks odd about the wee itself but then she doesn't move away from it after she's done but carries on standing there so it soaks into her feet. this is where the soreness is coming from on her legs. Its the same for her poo's as well she doesn't behave like a normal rabbit who will sit in the toilet corner and leave a pile of poo's instead she just seems to let them fall out where ever she is, even when she's walking around she'll leave a little trail of poo following her. I know theres territory poo where they will scatter the odd poo but this is her normal poo's that seem to just fall out no matter what she's doing.

She's also still doing the circling thing a lot. Heres a video to show better what she does. It's what she was doing when she had e-cuniculi but the behaviour has stayed with her even though she's finished her course of panacur and is over it now. 
YouTube - 29062010004.MP4

I've noticed she occasionally lets out a little wimper almost like a puppies soft cry for mum. It seems to be when she moves after sitting still for a while but she has been doing it when just sat as well.

She's finished her course of panacur a few weeks ago now and was also having baytril at the same time. She's currently on Propalin to try and see if it will help with her weeing, she's on a week trial with it to see if it makes a difference but so far nothing and it will have been a week on Thursday. I'm starting to consider calling it a day with her as she just isn't herself anymore. She's so unsteady on her feet when she walks, all the insides of her back legs are sore and have no fur left because of the weeing. She has to be bathed three times a week in hibiscrub to try and help with the urine burn and keep her as clean as possible and keeping sudocreme on her sore bits to act as a barrier and help it heal but it doesn't seem to be enough.

After reading this and seeing the video what would you do in this situation? Am I being cruel by carrying on this long to try and get her better?


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

aHH BLESS HER ITS ALMOST AS IF SHE CANT SEE AND CANT DECIDE WHERE TO GO NEXT WITH HER TURNING AROUND FOR DIRECTION. DOES SHE SEEM DEPRESSED AT ALL. ITS SUCH A HARD DECISSION I HAD A PROB WITH MY BUNS HE WAS A YEAR OLD AND AFTER A YEAR OF CONSTANT TUMMY UPSETS DUE TO A GUT INFECTION AND COLITIS I WAS WASHING HIM IN THE SINK EVERY DAY A FEW TIMES A DAY AS I WAS SCARED OF FLY SRTIKE. HE THEN HAD CONTIUNG PROBS WITH TEETH SPEARS IN THE END THE VET RECCOMENEDED HAVING HIM PTS AS HE WAS SO DEPRESSED AND DIDNT REALLY DO A THING JUST LAY THERE. hOW OLD IS YOUR BUNS, OBVIOUSLY ITS ALREADY ON A NUMBER OF MEDICATIONS ITS JUST KNOWING WETHER YOU CAN DO MORE OR WETHER YOU HAVE TO THINK IVE DONE ALL I CAN AND DECIDE FOR THE WELL BEING OF YOUR BUNNY . wHICH OF COURSE IS ALREADY IN YOUR THOUGHTS.
i TRIED FOR A YEAR OR SO WITH MINE BUT IT GOT TO THE POINT I KNEW I HAD TO GIVE IN FOR THE SAKE OF MY RABBITS QUALITY OF LIFE. ITS SUCH A HARD CALL TO MAKE. XX


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

sullivan said:


> aHH BLESS HER ITS ALMOST AS IF SHE CANT SEE AND CANT DECIDE WHERE TO GO NEXT WITH HER TURNING AROUND FOR DIRECTION. DOES SHE SEEM DEPRESSED AT ALL. ITS SUCH A HARD DECISSION I HAD A PROB WITH MY BUNS HE WAS A YEAR OLD AND AFTER A YEAR OF CONSTANT TUMMY UPSETS DUE TO A GUT INFECTION AND COLITIS I WAS WASHING HIM IN THE SINK EVERY DAY A FEW TIMES A DAY AS I WAS SCARED OF FLY SRTIKE. HE THEN HAD CONTIUNG PROBS WITH TEETH SPEARS IN THE END THE VET RECCOMENEDED HAVING HIM PTS AS HE WAS SO DEPRESSED AND DIDNT REALLY DO A THING JUST LAY THERE. hOW OLD IS YOUR BUNS, OBVIOUSLY ITS ALREADY ON A NUMBER OF MEDICATIONS ITS JUST KNOWING WETHER YOU CAN DO MORE OR WETHER YOU HAVE TO THINK IVE DONE ALL I CAN AND DECIDE FOR THE WELL BEING OF YOUR BUNNY . wHICH OF COURSE IS ALREADY IN YOUR THOUGHTS.
> i TRIED FOR A YEAR OR SO WITH MINE BUT IT GOT TO THE POINT I KNEW I HAD TO GIVE IN FOR THE SAKE OF MY RABBITS QUALITY OF LIFE. ITS SUCH A HARD CALL TO MAKE. XX


She's five so not young but not that old either really. Sometimes she seems depressed and unhappy but other times she seems quite happy and wanders around their run munching grass. I know its all down to quality of life but being the one caring for her its hard to take a step back and see it from an outsiders point of view, thats why I'm asking for opinions I guess to see how other people view the situation.


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL AS I DIDNT HAVE ANYONE ELSES OPINON OTHER THAN THE VET FOR ADVICE AND MY HUSBAND ,BUT WHEN IT CAME TO IT, IT WAS ME THAT HAD TO TAKE HIM, ITS A SHAME AS IN A WAY ITS MADE ME NOT EVER TO WANT ANOTHER BUNNY AS IT BROKE MY HEART. aND I HAD SUCH A WORRYING TIME WITH IT ALL. I ALWAYS THOUGHT DID I DO THE RIGHT THING. BUT NOW LOOKING BACK IT WAS THE BEST THING I COULD HAVE DONE FOR HIM ,AS I THINK AS I WAS SURE FLY STRIKE WAS SUCH A HUGE RISK ALSO. hE WAS ALWAYS SO SOILED EVEN HALF HOUR AFTER BATHING. I DONY ENVY YOU HAVING TO MAKE SUCH A HARD DECISSION. X


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## AmyCruick (Jul 20, 2009)

Poor daisy! Her story sounds very similar to what happened with my Sugar...

At first his eyes went cloudy and the vet said he was going blind (not uncommon in an albino so may not be related to the other probs) then his eyes started moving from side to side as though he was reading a book. Another trip to the vet who said it was E.C. I wormed him for 28 days with panacur, his eyes were better but not 100%. He then started weeing similar to how Daisy sounds in that I don't think he knew he was doing it. He grew weaker and struggled moving about and also starting losing weight. Another trip to the vet who felt a lump on his spine and said it was a tumour.

He had to have a steriod injection every 3 days after that, he always wet himself and I had to bath him everyday. As he lost weight he grew weaker and kept falling over etc. We decided to have him PTS after he could no longer walk by himself as he couldnt' get to his food/water bowls.

So it could potentially be a tumour? But I'm only speculating as her story sounds similar to what happened to Sugar. Our decision was that until he couldn't eat by himself we'd have him pts. When we decided it was time it was the hardest decision I've ever made but I knew its what was best for him. He was 8 so a bit older than Daisy.

You know her better than anyone so will know best whether she is happy or not. I think Sugar was happy until he reached the point where he couldn't walk, he still always wolfed down his food! 

Keep us posted on how she gets on


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Sophie was the last rabbit I had that was pts and I regretted the decision as soon as the injection was given, even now 4 years later I regret having her pts. She wasn't ready, they gave her the injection into a main vein so it should have been fast but half hour later she was unconsious but still breathing and fighting to stay alive. In the end the vet gave her a second dose straight to her heart. I held her whilst it all happened and just looking into her eyes I knew as soon as the first injection was given she wasn't ready. 

The opposite happened with Laddie though when I had him pts last year he went so peacefully and fast. Again I was with him as he went but there was no regret with him and I could tell it was his time.

I know its never easy but I don't want to put it off till she's suffering too much and at the same time not give her more of a chance to fight.


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## HoneyFern (Aug 27, 2009)

Kammie said:


> Sophie was the last rabbit I had that was pts and I regretted the decision as soon as the injection was given, even now 4 years later I regret having her pts. She wasn't ready, they gave her the injection into a main vein so it should have been fast but half hour later she was unconsious but still breathing and fighting to stay alive. In the end the vet gave her a second dose straight to her heart. I held her whilst it all happened and just looking into her eyes I knew as soon as the first injection was given she wasn't ready.


I know it's not much comfort but rabbits are harder to pts than cats or dogs, my Peanut needed two jabs .

Willow had a problem with incontinence when she was 5yrs old, I didn't get it looked into too much as her sister had died after an anaesthetic the year before but my vet could feel a lump and suspected cancer. I had to seperate her from the others as her bedding was getting wet every day and I needed to keep washing her, in the end I had to make the decision to pts as she was so sore and had no quality of life anymore. (Again, not much help but I thought I'd tell you my experience).

I had a cat that was on Propalin and it took her a good week or two for it to work as it builds up in the system so it won't work straight away. She's on it for life but she has no problems now, I wish I'd known about it when Willow was poorly.


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## kelly-m-e (Jun 18, 2009)

iv never had to have an animal pts until last year. We had to have both our cat and dog pts. The cat was ran over and broke his pelvis, the only option was to pts as the break was servere and he was 11. With the dog he had bone marrow cancer and lost so much weight you could see his ribs and went into kidney/liver failure, he was 9 which is old for a mastiff. Long story short, you can tell when they are ready to go. Only you can make the choice for them and in your heart you will know when its time. X


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

So sorry to hear about Daisy hon, I know how hard the decision can be 



Kammie said:


> With her weeing I've noticed she doesn't seem incontinent to the point that she dribbles slightly now and then but she doesn't seem to know when she's weeing. She'll be stood normally and suddenly start to wee, now you guys know rabbits generally go to a corner or the same place to toilet. When she goes she leaves a normal size puddle on the floor and nothing looks odd about the wee itself but then she doesn't move away from it after she's done but carries on standing there so it soaks into her feet. this is where the soreness is coming from on her legs. Its the same for her poo's as well she doesn't behave like a normal rabbit who will sit in the toilet corner and leave a pile of poo's instead she just seems to let them fall out where ever she is, even when she's walking around she'll leave a little trail of poo following her. I know theres territory poo where they will scatter the odd poo but this is her normal poo's that seem to just fall out no matter what she's doing.


Have you found the reason why she is going to the toilet like this? I'm guessing not but could it be a muscle strength problem? There may be some sort of exercises you could do with her, leg stretching etc although if she has issues with her legs it may not be suitable. (Or even possible, it was just a thought).

Two ways you could prevent the soreness on her legs is socks (as silly as that sounds!), ones that have a soft inside but waterproof outside. Or, now I'm not big on this suggestion myself but I thought I might was well post it, a bunny nappie. I've seen them before, you can get ones designed for rabbits, with proper holes for tails and legs and designed so that they dont fall off. I would only go for either of those suggestions if the incontinence isnt due to an underlying health problems, or if it wouldnt improve her quality of life.



Kammie said:


> She's also still doing the circling thing a lot. Heres a video to show better what she does. It's what she was doing when she had e-cuniculi but the behaviour has stayed with her even though she's finished her course of panacur and is over it now.
> YouTube - 29062010004.MP4


It almost looks as if she is looking for something. Now, I dont know what situation your bunnies are in so this isnt me saying you're not caring for them (they look like they have a wonderful mum ) but could she be bored?

Or, could the bunny bonding be causing stress?



Kammie said:


> I've noticed she occasionally lets out a little wimper almost like a puppies soft cry for mum. It seems to be when she moves after sitting still for a while but she has been doing it when just sat as well.


Could this be pain? Maybe from arthritus?



Kammie said:


> After reading this and seeing the video what would you do in this situation? Am I being cruel by carrying on this long to try and get her better?


Honestly, if there is no way you can improve her current situation I think it would be kinder to have her put to sleep, as heartbreaking as that is.

I've just had another thought... Partially inspired by another poster... Do her eyes move from side to side at all?

My dog had problems walking, would wee where she was (she was a very proud and clean dog so it was very strange of her to do this), would whimper and move around in circles a lot. This ended up being diagnosed as meniere's disease which can be treatable (sadly it wasnt for my dog ). I dont know if its something that rabbits can get though.

I'm sorry if this doesnt make much sense... I'm not too well at the moment


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

PurpleCrow said:


> So sorry to hear about Daisy hon, I know how hard the decision can be
> 
> Have you found the reason why she is going to the toilet like this? I'm guessing not but could it be a muscle strength problem? There may be some sort of exercises you could do with her, leg stretching etc although if she has issues with her legs it may not be suitable. (Or even possible, it was just a thought).
> 
> ...


All the problems she has were caused by the e-cuniculi aka head tilt. Its left her brain damaged, which is why she still circles and has lost control of her bladder/bowels. I know she'll never be her normal self to a degree but I'm still hanging on to hope that we can improve her to carry on a happy life. The circling she does a lot and its not down to boredom, at the moment theres no toys with them because I'm bonding them and its only day two so don't want to over excite them by introducing toys yet but even when they're out in the normal run with lots of toys she shows no interest in them at all.


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## PurpleCrow (Mar 22, 2009)

Ahhh ok I didnt realise, sorry!  

Is there a chance she could improve? I dont know much about e-cuniculi myself


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## helebelina (Nov 11, 2009)

Kammie said:


> Sophie was the last rabbit I had that was pts and I regretted the decision as soon as the injection was given, even now 4 years later I regret having her pts. She wasn't ready, they gave her the injection into a main vein so it should have been fast but half hour later she was unconsious but still breathing and fighting to stay alive. In the end the vet gave her a second dose straight to her heart. I held her whilst it all happened and just looking into her eyes I knew as soon as the first injection was given she wasn't ready.


Aww, that is just awful. I'm so sorry u and poor little Sophie had to go through that. That is absolutely my worst nightmare, and I'm sure it was yours. That's broken my heart hearing that and I can completely understand why your so reluctant this time.

I would say, just give her a chance. You will know in your heart more than anyone when she is unhappy, and getting no pleasure from life. I wish you all the best. :001_unsure:


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Hey Kammie,

If it were me id ask on the rescue forum only because i know there are lots of expereinced bun people there that can advise you, i dont have any experience in this. I know someone i can ask so will try that too for you.

xxx


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## Lapin (Mar 20, 2010)

It sounds as though she has damage to her Central Nervous System (which is involved in the control of urinating and defecating) caused by the EC. Whilst this may not get any worse it is unlikely to get a lot better.

Has she been checked out for bladder sludge/stones ? This can cause a Bun to leak urine.

I have an 8 year old EC Bun with similar problems. I have to express his bladder for him daily otherwise he fails to completely empty it and he then gets a build up of calcium deposits which cause bladder sludge etc. He also has no sense of passing caecotrophs so he can get mucky unless I help him.

But in all other ways he is very happy and as I am able to be with him all day every day to give the one-to-one care I do not feel that PTS is an option.
But no case is the same and only you can judge the quality of life Daisy has and if your circumstances allow for the intensive care she may need for the rest of her life.

Best wishes 

Lapin


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## emzybabe (Jun 30, 2009)

kammie  im sorry she hasnt bounced back, I thought she would be fairly normally after her courses of meds. like you have said you will know when it is right for her, are you putting anything like vasaline on her hocks to help protect them from the urine? you could also try lots of absorbant bedding like towels/vet bed/or even some dreaded wood shavings so that it soaks into them rather than her. Is she happy? thats the main question


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Lapin said:


> It sounds as though she has damage to her Central Nervous System (which is involved in the control of urinating and defecating) caused by the EC. Whilst this may not get any worse it is unlikely to get a lot better.
> 
> Has she been checked out for bladder sludge/stones ? This can cause a Bun to leak urine.
> 
> ...


Great post, thankyou Lapin


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Thanks guys. She hasn't been checked for bladder stone or anything I'll suggest that at her next vet visit. She's having aloe vera gel and sudocream put onto her sore bits and anywhere where the fur is missing. Tomorrow I need to phone the vet and update him on how she's doing and see what he says from there, he has suggested having her in for the day and shaving all of her back end so theres no fur to soak up the wee and make it easier to clean at least till we've solved the urine problem. 

She's being kept in an indoor cage at night with carefresh along with Rosie and Dylan and in the day she goes loose in the bathroom with them and I just check every now and then to mop up any wee's she does since she's not using the litter tray. I am sometimes sitting her in the litter tray to see if she will get the idea but so far its not worked. 

For now I'm playing the wait and see game and trying all options possible to give her a chance. For the most part she is happy in herself and will come up to me when I go to see them and she's eating well although weight gain is slow but I don't want her to put it on too fast in case it does more harm. Its just horrible to watch her sometimes when she goes into her circling thing and wets herself. Today I did catch her playing with a loo roll tube throwing it around so thats given me a bit of hope.


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

I can sympathise with you completly. I had the 'do I, don't I?' with Pepsi (Iknow it was a bit different but it was still something that had to be strongly thought through) it is a heart breaking thing to have to think about and it hurts to look at them knowing what you have been thinking 

I don't know much about EC (myxi, however...) all I can say is, if you have exhausted every avenue you can think of and know in your heart of hearts that she has given up (you will know when..) then maybe that is the time.. if you have the ability to keep her going and she is happy, give her the chance, that way, you will have no regrets


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## AmyCruick (Jul 20, 2009)

emzybabe said:


> you could also try lots of absorbant bedding like towels/vet bed/or even some dreaded wood shavings so that it soaks into them rather than her. Is she happy? thats the main question


How could I forget about vet beds?! These are great! My mum leant me some when Sugar lost control of his bladder. They suck the wee to the bottom and hold it there so that when Sugar just would wee where he was laying he always stayed dry. Then you just stick the vet bed in the washing machine.

Could be worth getting to help keep Daisy dry?


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

AmyCruick said:


> How could I forget about vet beds?! These are great! My mum leant me some when Sugar lost control of his bladder. They suck the wee to the bottom and hold it there so that when Sugar just would wee where he was laying he always stayed dry. Then you just stick the vet bed in the washing machine.
> 
> Could be worth getting to help keep Daisy dry?


I do have the small vet beds I use in the carry boxes, I may get the bigger one to put on the floor of the shed so at least some of it gets covered for her to sit on. Not sure what the biggest size is will try getting one.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

After speaking to the vet today, short of shaving her as a temporary option theres nothing more we can do for her. Shaving her would only be a temporary solution to give her skin chance to heal whilst the incontinence issue is sorted but theres nothing else to try to help her incontinence. I'm going to speak to Delia and ask her opinion on the situation before deciding anything, since she see's rabbits in all kinds of condition come to her at the rescue she will be the best one to ask about her improving in a non-medical way (if that makes sense). 

As most of you have said and as my vet has said today its down to quality of life and if she's always going to be incontinent and unable to know when she's weeing then it isn't fair to make her suffer. I can't keep her shut in an indoor cage for the rest of her life on a vet bed just to keep her dry, she needs to be able to run around and play which she just isn't interested in doing anymore. 

For now I'll wait and see what Delia has to say when I speak to her.


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

For those that are keeping up with this. I've now spoken to Delia and she will be coming over to see Daisy on Sunday evening, she's told me she'll give her honest opinion as an outsider as to Daisy's chances of having a happy life. I put all my trust in Delia with this as I know she see's rabbits in all sorts of conditions that have either come back stronger or have lost the fight so she's the best one to ask. 

Till Sunday Daisy is staying in an indoors with me in a cage of carefresh and I'm keeping her as comfy as possible.


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## helebelina (Nov 11, 2009)

Yes, Delia knows her stuff and with her experience I'm sure she will know the best thing to do. All best wishes to you and little Daisy.


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## frags (Feb 5, 2009)

Good luck for sunday hun x


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

That sounds sensible hun, thinking of you x


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## srhdufe (Feb 11, 2009)

Good luck Kammie x


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

What has Delia said about her?

*Heidi*


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## frags (Feb 5, 2009)

How did it go huni?


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Delia had to put it off till tomorrow, she had an amergency brought in. A rabbit with severe flystrike that took priority. She'll be coming tomorrow morning to see Daisy now.


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## frags (Feb 5, 2009)

Kammie said:


> Delia had to put it off till tomorrow, she had an amergency brought in. A rabbit with severe flystrike that took priority. She'll be coming tomorrow morning to see Daisy now.


Thanks for updating, hope the flystrike bunny makes it x


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

Fly strike bunny was ok, lots of big maggots but no damage to skin.

Delia has seen Daisy now and says to give her a chance. She has improved so much over the weekend. She's now in the indoor cage in the living room on carefresh, Delia is going to lend me some vetbeds that would fit the cage to save me using loads of carefresh. Daisy's legs have hair growing back so she is doing better on her own with the carefresh. Delia did say she probably wouldn't be able to go back out with Rosie and Dylan and would probably stay in the indoor cage but because she's indoors with us and George and Ember are around her she'll be quite happy. She also said that her circling coould be when she's overwhelmed or stressed so having her on her own will reduce the amount of circling she does. 

All in all she Daisy has improved so much over the last two days that she has a chance and I won't be giving up on her. To think I almost gave up and it was only really a small part of me hanging on to hope that she would get better. I'm so relieved now.


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## srhdufe (Feb 11, 2009)

Awww hun i am so pleased for you. I really do wish you the best of luck with her x


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## frags (Feb 5, 2009)

Brilliant news hun, im pleased there is hope x


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Glad there is hope  I think she will be fine on her own, as you say she has you in the house to keep her company as well as George and Ember around 
Keeping all fingers crossed here 

*Heidi*


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

I'm really happy with her progress the last few days. I saw her playing with a willow ball today! She's coming up to the edge of the cage for attention everytime we walk past and has started doing meercat impressions again although she does lose her balance a bit and stumble.


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm glad it was good news hun


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## helebelina (Nov 11, 2009)

Aw bless her. Sounds like she's a little fighter :thumbup:


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