# Responsible or Irresponsible Breeder, please help!!



## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

I have had burmese for a little over 3 years now. I had my first litter about 16 months ago and the breeder from whom I had my burmese had also become a friend so she had one of my kittens.

I am in no way an experienced breeder and do not profess to be but I have serious concerns about this person but before I take things any further, I would like as many opinions as possible to ensure I am doing the right thing as I do not want to harm her reputation if I am just being oversensitive.

The kitten this lady had has turned out to be small. If she is 5lb wet through, that is generous. She has had a litter 4 weeks ago with her and 2 of the kittens took more than an hour to be born and had to be pulled out, I think becasue the cat is too small to have kittens safely. She says it was big kittens as opposed to small cat but I have her litter sister who at best is only marginly bigger and I am having her neutered as she is not really big enough to breed from. Obviously she is currently on the active register but I do not know if I am being too cautious by being terrified she is going to breed her again when she had such a traumatic birth and the fact she is small, is not good for the breed in general. She has also said (she is 16 months old) that she will continue to grow as she matures but I can not find out at what age her pelvis is not going to grow any further and at 16 months, I can not see it growing much more. I need to know if breeding from such a small burmese is wrong and if I should remove her from the active register but offer to take the cat back (which I would be more than happy to do)

In addition to this, one of the kittens that was recently born began to have problems and on the end of the telephone, could hear this kitten and she sounded distressed and in pain and said she needed to be taken to the vets, either for treatment or to be put to sleep so she was not suffering. I was told that the vet could not do anything and the kitten would be dead by morning.

I know many responsible breeders have access to antibiotics but this lady obtains hers from spain and seems to indescriminately put them on antibiotics. A loose bowel movment - 7 days synulox, 2 sneezes - 7 days synulox.

She maintains she is at the top of her 'game' and that nobody knows as much as she does. She will listen to nobody. I nagged her for months to get her stud to the vets as he was clearly in pain but by the time she did, he had to be put to sleep but she still justifies not taking him in to be treated. 

If anyone is kind enough to help me and give me some advice, what would also be valuble would be to know how many years experience you have as I want more than double her total experience as I want to be sure I am doing the right thing so I can add up all the years from any advice I recieve.

Generally, I do thinks she is a capable breeder but I also feel some of her practices are outright wrong. Having her stud as father and also great grandfather, I feel is wrong but she tells me it is normal and common?

I am also visiting my vet this week where I will be seeking a further opinion because I have grave concern but at the same time, I acknowledge that I do not have the experience to know if or not my concerns are justified

Many thanks for reading


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

The only thing that would really seem to be odd about any of that, to be honest, is the refusal to take her stud to the vet. As for the rest:

1. Since returning to Burmese very recently after about seven years without one, I have been astounded at how small the girls are these days. One which won BOV at a show not long ago (aged 14 weeks) had a lovely type but was so painfully small I was surprised she even got through vetting in. In short, small now seems to be normal 

2. Antibiotic resistance is a problem of course, but equally, if you take a kitten to the vet for diarrhoea or sneezing you are going to be given antibiotics. At one stage there was a legal route to get these through Ireland. If a kitten goes down with diarrhoea after the vet has closed, you are going to have to pay at least £100 (and much more at some vets) before you have even got through the door, and with some causes of diahorrea, if you leave it till the next morning with a 6 week old kitten it can be too late. If you are paying a vast amount of money to get through the door then you are far more likely to take a chance on the diarrhoea being due to a torovirus rather than being bacterial and you much more likely to leave it. And sometimes you will make the wrong decision and lose kittens. If you have antibiotics on standby you will dose the kitten straight away. It is right for the goverment to be concerned about misuse of antibiotics but farmers can get the things on the nod and keep them in stock, why can't breeders? If I knew how to get antibiotics from Spain, believe me I would get them!

3. follows on from 2. really. If you are going to be charged £100 before you even set foot in the door of an emergency vets (and for some emergency vets the fee is MUCH higher than that), then unless you have vast amounts of money you are not going to go there out of hours to have a new born kitten put down. There was a time when breeders could obtain chloroform from a pharmacist to have in hand for just this sort of thing. I have never actually asked but I imagine those days are long gone.

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I think you need another burmese breeder to comment on whether the cat is too small to breed. I breed siamese and orientals and that does seem quite light for an adult girl, but then I have heard alot of established breeders say that the best girls they have ever had have been very small, they pop them out like peas and its the bigger girls that struggle. I personally wouldn't use a small girl to breed from but thats personal preferance.

I would have thought if the pelvic opening was too small, then the kittens would not have been born. You don't say whether the 2 that took a long time to be born were dead or not. They may well have been dead before hand and they do take longer to be born, because the queen has to do all the work. If she was a maiden as well, then the first one always takes longer. Normal birth of a few contractions and kittens pop out within 20mins like the books suggest doesn't always happen, but then it also doesn't mean that anything is wrong.

The sound of a distressed kitten doesn't sound too good, and I have to say that if it was mine in obvious distress then a trip to the vet to be pts would have been the kindest thing, but thats without knowing the full details. With each litter you do get to know what you can save and what you can not. It doesn't stop you trying, but when you know in your heart of hearts that there is very little you can do then being pts is the kindest thing

Alot of people in general, do not understand antibiotics and the way they work, especially those of a certain generation that view them as miracle drugs. Even vets to a certain extent will do the same, how often do you take a cat to the vet for something minor and get routinely administered with an anti inflammatory and an antibiotic injection ?

Inbreeding is very common, and I have my own views on that - which I will refrain from standing on my soap box about :blushing: It is common practice across the CF and as such viewed as acceptable, which I would disagree with, but I am avoiding the soap box. At any rate, until the registering bodies do something to control it by placing a max inbreeding coefficient to any kitten registered then the practice will continue. All you can do is pick outcrossed peds, although in some breeds those are probably few and far between.

I am not saying whether I agree or disagree, but there is always another side to the story, and things may not be as they appear.


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

lizward said:


> 1. Since returning to Burmese very recently after about seven years without one, I have been astounded at how small the girls are these days. One which won BOV at a show not long ago (aged 14 weeks) had a lovely type but was so painfully small I was surprised she even got through vetting in. In short, small now seems to be normal
> 
> 3. follows on from 2. really. If you are going to be charged £100 before you even set foot in the door of an emergency vets (and for some emergency vets the fee is MUCH higher than that), then unless you have vast amounts of money you are not going to go there out of hours to have a new born kitten put down. There was a time when breeders could obtain chloroform from a pharmacist to have in hand for just this sort of thing. I have never actually asked but I imagine those days are long gone.
> 
> Liz


Thanks for your reply Liz,

There are a couple of things I would like to follow up if that is ok. I appreciate the fact that Burmese are smaller these days. Is that not more reason to only breed from queens of a good size so they return to their original size?

I think you are right about the chloroform, it is no longer available and I know that used to be used for newborns if it was needed. The kitten I was talking about, I did not make clear that she was not a newborn. She was 3 1/2 weeks old and was playing one day, would not eat much the next, the day after had clearly started to deteriorate which is when I heard her distressed crys over the telephone. I was then told she would be dead by morning so there was no point in taking her to the vets because they could not do anything and it was during normal surgery hours that this occurred

This is where I have the problem but I am not sure if I lose my objectivity. Because I have only had one litter and I am not knowledgeable enough about what is ok and what is not in breeding circles, when mine were 3 weeks of age, if that had happened, she would have been at the vets to see if she could be saved and if not, to have her put to sleep to prevent further suffering.


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Saikou said:


> I think you need another burmese breeder to comment on whether the cat is too small to breed. I personally wouldn't use a small girl to breed from but thats personal preferance.
> 
> I would have thought if the pelvic opening was too small, then the kittens would not have been born. You don't say whether the 2 that took a long time to be born were dead or not. because the queen has to do all the work. If she was a maiden as well
> 
> ...


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

gmj said:


> Thanks for your reply Liz,
> 
> There are a couple of things I would like to follow up if that is ok. I appreciate the fact that Burmese are smaller these days. Is that not more reason to only breed from queens of a good size so they return to their original size?
> 
> ...


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

gmj said:


> Thanks for your reply Liz,
> 
> There are a couple of things I would like to follow up if that is ok. I appreciate the fact that Burmese are smaller these days. Is that not more reason to only breed from queens of a good size so they return to their original size?


Burmese do seem to be smaller than in past years - and I imagine that is because they are highly inbred, particularly in the UK, as we cannot currently register imported Burmese with GCCF. I've studied burmese pedigrees for years and the situation is very worrying now - I've tried to get the clubs to take notice of this but it falls on deaf ears and they say there is no problem 
I've heard it said that it should be fine to breed with a girl over 5 lbs in weight. I've also heard it said that smaller girls labour and give birth more easily. I've had smallish girls myself and I have to say that they've never had problems giving birth - in 19 years of breeding I have only had 3 girls need c-sections (2 Burmese and 1 Asian - the Burmese were mother and daughter interestingly enough - the mother was a good size and the daughter rather small - the Asian girl was a good size)

As for the comment about viruses being a myth, that is utter nonsense. The majority of cat diseases are caused by viruses. But it's common practice to give antibiotics even in the case of a virus, purely to prevent secondary bacterial infections that could make things a lot worse.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gmj said:


> The kitten I was talking about, I did not make clear that she was not a newborn. She was 3 1/2 weeks old and was playing one day, would not eat much the next, the day after had clearly started to deteriorate which is when I heard her distressed crys over the telephone. I was then told she would be dead by morning so there was no point in taking her to the vets because they could not do anything and it was during normal surgery hours that this occurred
> 
> This is where I have the problem but I am not sure if I lose my objectivity. Because I have only had one litter and I am not knowledgeable enough about what is ok and what is not in breeding circles, when mine were 3 weeks of age, if that had happened, she would have been at the vets to see if she could be saved and if not, to have her put to sleep to prevent further suffering.


Well that does put rather a different complexion on it. I find myself wondering if this breeder is perhaps in serious financial trouble - after all you say she more or less let her stud cat die as well, that sounds like a very odd thing to do even if looked at from a purely financial point of view.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gmj said:


> I do not like confrontation but when I was questioned as to why I did not demand antibiotics for what was a viral infection and I explained that they do not have any use in viral illness, she suggested that there is not actually such a thing as a virus and it has been made up to explain things that can not easily be diagnosed as bacterial. I did confront that though I did not feel that she had changed her opinion


That is a bit odd, to say the least 

Liz


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

lizward said:


> I find myself wondering if this breeder is perhaps in serious financial trouble - after all you say she more or less let her stud cat die as well, that sounds like a very odd thing to do even if looked at from a purely financial point of view.
> 
> Liz


You are not too far off the mark with the financial thing. I know she is not well off and she does not have money to waste but she is not in 'trouble'. I respect that she has many years experience and there are many times I have understood why she has not taken a cat to the vets when it is minor ailments. But to allow this baby to suffer as she did because she likely would not have survived and did not want to spend money that she would not recoup is what really troubles me. That baby crying when I was on the phone is something I don't know if I will ever forget because I know she was allowed to suffer for another 24 hours minimum and that hurts me deeply


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

I have another question for anyone who might know what they are talking about.

Is it acceptable for a breeder to put a queen in with their father if the kittens are only to be sold as pets?


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Think it's irrelevant whether they are only going as pets or not tbh,your first concern should be health and in and in answer to your question no imo not acceptableHave to ask and i'm not having a go,but do you really want to be breeding from i will assume unless corrected this girl,given what you know and don't know of where she came from?Sorry again assuming(unless corrected) that your asking for your girl and it isn't just a general ask.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

personally I think that mating a daughter to its father is not right. Makes the inbreeding too high. Not good for genetic diversity nor for good lines. It's irrelevant whether pet or not all kittens and owners deserve the best chance possible and all breeders 'should' be striving to better their lines irrespective of who will finally own the kittens, and this mating would not give the kittens the best chance, in fact they may end up with problems becasue of it.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Father/daughter, Mother/Son matings can be done and the kittens registered at the moment. 

In my opinion they should only be attempted by experienced breeders who know what they are doing.

Many breeds have originated on such matings and they are done to "lock" in traits. 
So for example if it was desirable for your cats to have say extra large ears in a breed and you wanted most of your kittens to inherit this then perhaps a close inbreeding of two large eared cats may give you this trait and with careful breeding and selection then eventually you will have the majority of kittens born with large ears.
Of course inbreeding can accentuate faults and you would have to be prepared for ill, sickly and perhaps dead kittens. It is not for the faint-hearted.

Unfortunately mostly it is done because the breeder cannot afford or be bothered to buy another stud.

Lauren


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

I wouldn't say that 5 lb necessarily is too small, I've seen females that size giving birth (normal births) to healthy and in the end normal sized kittens. Some females will grow and become larger after a litter to. I think you have to know the blood lines quite well in order to be able to tell if a small female most likely will grow larger after a litter or if she'll stay small. A female that'll stay small I'd be hesistant to breed. The breed I breed (and Burmese as I've understood it) are medium sized cats, not small cats.

As for the other issues you've raises I'd be very concerned. I don't like the routine (ab)use of antibiotics, the unwillingness to take the kitten to the vet be PTS etc.

It doesn't sound good to me.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

gmj said:


> Is it acceptable for a breeder to put a queen in with their father if the kittens are only to be sold as pets?


IMO, absolutely not. Such inbreeding is never acceptable. In order to illustrate how genetically damaging inbreeding is: compared to the size of a completely outcrossed litter the size of a breeding that generate 25% IC (as a father/daughter mating) will be 1,25 kittens fewer.

That's quite a lot of genetic damage. Just think of what we don't see.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

That is true, fecundity and fertility is often compromised by inbreeding as is the immune system, not to mention the genetic disorders that can be highlighted by inbreeding.
In the pursuit of "traits" though those things often take a back seat.


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> IMO, absolutely not. Such inbreeding is never acceptable. In order to illustrate how genetically damaging inbreeding is: compared to the size of a completely outcrossed litter the size of a breeding that generate 25% IC (as a father/daughter mating) will be 1,25 kittens fewer.
> 
> That's quite a lot of genetic damage. Just think of what we don't see.


Yes but inbreeding does bring genetic faults to the surface, breeders that do or have done it say its a way of testing their lines.

On the other hand, outcrossing can be more of a gamble as any number of faults introduced into a line by this method could lie hidden for a number of generations. Just because you cant see it doesn't mean it isn't there.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Angeli said:


> Yes but inbreeding does bring genetic faults to the surface, breeders that do or have done it say its a way of testing their lines.
> 
> On the other hand, outcrossing can be more of a gamble as any number of faults introduced into a line by this method could lie hidden for a number of generations. Just because you cant see it doesn't mean it isn't there.


Of course inbreeding can bring genetic faults to the surface. That's the very problem! In fact you increase the risk for breeding unhealthy cats if you inbreed and at least I believe that serious breeding is all about breeding as healthy cats as possible.

When outcrossing you can get defects not present in the blood lines you have, that's true but when you outcross you keep the frequency of these genes very low so they never create a problem.

I rather have 40 defects, each in very low frequency due to outcrossing than a huge problem with 4 defects due to inbreeding.

Recessive defects aren't harmful to the population as long as you follow the plan Mother Nature made and that plan does everything it can in order to prevent inbreeding.


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Siamese Kelly said:


> Think it's irrelevant whether they are only going as pets or not tbh,your first concern should be health and in and in answer to your question no imo not acceptableHave to ask and i'm not having a go,but do you really want to be breeding from i will assume unless corrected this girl,given what you know and don't know of where she came from?Sorry again assuming(unless corrected) that your asking for your girl and it isn't just a general ask.


I can assure you, my girl who I now know has the same dad and great grandad and is small anyway, will NOT be having kittens. I am not going to do something that could put the health or even lives of any cat or kitten at risk so I am not offended but I have no intetion of doing this. I am actually looking up North for a kitten at the moment to keep away from all of this that is going on in my area so that I can do this in the way it should be done.

thanks for your reply:thumbup:


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I don't think we can say it should never be done. As you correctly point out, this is how breeds are established - it's essential to do very close matings in the early stages because there is no alternative. Before I would consider doing such a close mating, I'd want to be sure I knew of any likely inherited problems in the lines, and I'd also look at the inbreeding coefficient going back as many generations as possible (at least 10 and hopefully more)



lauren001 said:


> Father/daughter, Mother/Son matings can be done and the kittens registered at the moment.
> 
> In my opinion they should only be attempted by experienced breeders who know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Unfortunately mostly it is done because the breeder cannot afford or be bothered to buy another stud.
> 
> Lauren


Sadly, this is the real reason this has been done as this stud did tend to produce small cats.

Thank you


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I think you've made a wise decision. However. because it's Burmese we're talking about, do NOT assume that you are getting an outcrossed kitten just because the 4 gen pedigree looks reasonable. If you need help with this I'm happy to advise / assist - I can trace most UK Burmese back to Wong Mau (unless the lines are totally unfamiliar to me) and will be able to work out the inbreeding coefficient of a planned mating.



gmj said:


> I can assure you, my girl who I now know has the same dad and great grandad and is small anyway, will NOT be having kittens. I am not going to do something that could put the health or even lives of any cat or kitten at risk so I am not offended but I have no intetion of doing this. I am actually looking up North for a kitten at the moment to keep away from all of this that is going on in my area so that I can do this in the way it should be done.
> 
> thanks for your reply:thumbup:


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> Of course inbreeding can bring genetic faults to the surface. That's the very problem! In fact you increase the risk for breeding unhealthy cats if you inbreed and at least I believe that serious breeding is all about breeding as healthy cats as possible.
> 
> When outcrossing you can get defects not present in the blood lines you have, that's true but when you outcross you keep the frequency of these genes very low so they never create a problem.
> 
> ...


Thats not necessarily so, the human population isn't inbred but we still have our major hereditary illnesses with even more new illnesses being diagnosed all the time. Far from diluting a genetic fault all outcrossing does is spread it around a bit more and perhaps even create some totally new problem.

I have to say Im neither for or against inbreeding, I just prefer to keep an open mind.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> I don't think we can say it should never be done. As you correctly point out, this is how breeds are established - it's essential to do very close matings in the early stages because there is no alternative. Before I would consider doing such a close mating, I'd want to be sure I knew of any likely inherited problems in the lines, and I'd also look at the inbreeding coefficient going back as many generations as possible (at least 10 and hopefully more)


It's true that inbreeding usually is used to establish breeds, but it is in no means the only way. The other way just takes longer time.


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

kozykatz said:


> If you need help with this I'm happy to advise / assist - I can trace most UK Burmese back to Wong Mau (unless the lines are totally unfamiliar to me) and will be able to work out the inbreeding coefficient of a planned mating.


That is extremely kind of you. I am going to take my time with it but I may well take you up on your offer. Thanks again, it is really appreciated as I am not that experienced myself but want to do things in the right way:thumbup:


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Angeli said:


> Thats not necessarily so, the human population isn't inbred but we still have our major hereditary illnesses with even more new illnesses being diagnosed all the time. Far from diluting a genetic fault all outcrossing does is spread it around a bit more and perhaps even create some totally new problem.
> 
> I have to say Im neither for or against inbreeding, I just prefer to keep an open mind.


But may I remind you that we do not breed humans the same way as cats. If a cat turns out to have... HCM, it's dropped from the breeding program emidiately (hopefully). A human with HCM, who in the world would refuse him/her from having a child? Had I been a cat I certainly wouldn't have used me for breeding since I have allergies, asthma, my legs are of different length and I have back probems. No way would I use myself in a breeding program, had I been a cat!

But I'm not a cat so I breed anyway.

Outcrossing will never create a new problem. Outcrossing will spread genes, but that's what nature intended. If spread in a large population any given recessive defect won't cause a problem. Sure, it'll pop up from time to time but not often enough to create a problem.

The problem in cats is that we often work with closed populations and we can't outcross as much as should be needed (the closed population is to small). In such a case, inbreeding won't be the solution either. The long term solution for such a breed is a controlled outbreeding program using other breeds to introduce new genes. Complete outcross. We do it in the Devon Rex still today and at least in Sweden it works very well. Our cats are a lot healthier now than they were before the outcrossing started some 20 years ago.


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> But may I remind you that we do not breed humans the same way as cats. If a cat turns out to have... HCM, it's dropped from the breeding program emidiately (hopefully). A human with HCM, who in the world would refuse him/her from having a child? Had I been a cat I certainly wouldn't have used me for breeding since I have allergies, asthma, my legs are of different length and I have back probems. No way would I use myself in a breeding program, had I been a cat!
> 
> But I'm not a cat so I breed anyway.
> 
> ...


Im afraid outcrossing to a different breed isn't allowed here for most of the breeds, you just wouldn't be able to register them. You are only allowed to outcross with what is permissable with the governing bodies so if you have a breed that has a small gene pool it can be extremely difficult.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Angeli said:


> Im afraid outcrossing to a different breed isn't allowed here for most of the breeds, you just wouldn't be able to register them. You are only allowed to outcross with what is permissable with the governing bodies so if you have a breed that has a small gene pool it can be extremely difficult.


I know, that's usually the case in all large cat registries and it's something I think will have to change if we wanna keep our breeds healthy in the long run.

I believe there are 10000 pugs in the UK but if you look at the genes you get the genetic diversity of only 50 different people! It's probably not unique for the pug. A breed with that kind of lack of genetic diversity cannot last for much longer.

With cats we have the benefit that most breeds are much younger than dog breeds usually are so we don't have to repeat the mistakes dog breeders have made... but for some reason we do.

It should be in every cat lovers interest to try and influence their registries to loosen the rules on this (at least to make them permit well thought through outbreeding programs).


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> However. because it's Burmese we're talking about, do NOT assume that you are getting an outcrossed kitten just because the 4 gen pedigree looks reasonable.


This is true in many many breeds not just the Burmese, breeders look at these few first gens and think it is fine when in reality the cat can be very highly inbred with huge inbreeding coefficients.


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I'mafraid that this is going to have to change - GCCF are going to be far more proactive on breeding policies in the future because they do not want to be in the position that the Kennel Club are, following that documentary shown on TV last summer.



Angeli said:


> Im afraid outcrossing to a different breed isn't allowed here for most of the breeds, you just wouldn't be able to register them. You are only allowed to outcross with what is permissable with the governing bodies so if you have a breed that has a small gene pool it can be extremely difficult.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Im pretty horrified to hear people suggesting inbreeding is acceptable, in any species it has been proven time and again to cause longterm problems, and what for? So you can improve the physical appearance of a cat/breed, i think its absolutely disgusting and the sad, irresponsible side to breeding. In my opinion inbreeding is never acceptable and the animals welfare should always come first.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think you will find it hard if not impossible to find a pedigree cat that has not got some degree of inbreeding somewhere in its lineage, it goes with the territory.

At present it is "acceptable", in that it is approved by the cat registries, but for how long I am not sure?



> *Originally Posted by kozykatz: *
> I'm afraid that this is going to have to change - GCCF are going to be far more proactive on breeding policies in the future because they do not want to be in the position that the Kennel Club are, following that documentary shown on TV last summer.


I agree, however it may take some time to filter through.


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## Angeli (Jun 2, 2008)

crofty said:


> Im pretty horrified to hear people suggesting inbreeding is acceptable, in any species it has been proven time and again to cause longterm problems, and what for? So you can improve the physical appearance of a cat/breed, i think its absolutely disgusting and the sad, irresponsible side to breeding. In my opinion inbreeding is never acceptable and the animals welfare should always come first.


It might not be acceptable but nearly every breed of cat has been inbred to some extent. Those that have small gene pools have had to do it to keep the breed going, so done as a necessity not a choice, as someone else said it might not be obvious looking at a four or five generation pedigree but it may be further down the line.

Im a keen line chaser myself and have studied lots of pedigrees where the same names crop up regularly, every breed will have at least one of these in their background...........plus you also have to take into account the accuracy of the pedigree itself.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gmj said:


> I have another question for anyone who might know what they are talking about.
> 
> Is it acceptable for a breeder to put a queen in with their father if the kittens are only to be sold as pets?


Well, I've done it, and I might do it this year if neither of the other boys matures in time to be of use with the girl I want to breed (on the other hand since she's not called yet that might not be an issue). I do have a reason though - I want classic tabbies and Dad is a carrier so all his offspring have a 50% chance of being carriers.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> It should be in every cat lovers interest to try and influence their registries to loosen the rules on this (at least to make them permit well thought through outbreeding programs).


Absolutely right. I'm afraid it isn't the registries that are likely to be the problem though, it's the breed clubs.

Liz


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> I'mafraid that this is going to have to change - GCCF are going to be far more proactive on breeding policies in the future because they do not want to be in the position that the Kennel Club are, following that documentary shown on TV last summer.


I agree. All the large registries will have to change. I have to say that the fact that the GCCF not only accept but actuarally encourage outcrossing the Devon Rex is one of the biggest reasons I chose to leave FIFé and join GCCF instead.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> Absolutely right. I'm afraid it isn't the registries that are likely to be the problem though, it's the breed clubs.
> 
> Liz


Yeah, you're probably right.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Which breeds are the common outcrosses for the Devon Rex?


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well, I've done it, and I might do it this year if neither of the other boys matures in time to be of use with the girl I want to breed (on the other hand since she's not called yet that might not be an issue). I do have a reason though - I want classic tabbies and Dad is a carrier so all his offspring have a 50% chance of being carriers.
> 
> Liz


But is it fair to mate with the queens father because you want tabbies? I don't think any way you look at it, from a genetic and health point of view, that sort of inbreeding can not be good for the babies. Surely, if inbreeding ultimately brings no good, doing that can not be good for anyone but the breeder.

I just can not see any circumstances where inbreeding, particularly that close is justifiable even if you are breeding in what is good about the breed, ultimately, any weakess is going to be emphasised


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Which breeds are the common outcrosses for the Devon Rex?


It depends on what country you're in. In the US the most common outcross breed is the American Shorthair. In Sweden it's the European Shorthair, British Shorthair, Exotic and even Domestic Shorthairs. GCCF allows outcrossing with Aby, Korat, Burmese and British Shorthair and I believe the most common outcrosses in the UK are Burmese and the British Shorthair.

If I had to be more specific I'd say in the US -> American Shorthar, in the UK -> British Shorthair and Burmese, In Sweden -> Domestic Shorhair (yes, DSH would be by far the most common outcross looking back the last 2-3 decades).


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## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

It depends on how you define inbreeding.



crofty said:


> Im pretty horrified to hear people suggesting inbreeding is acceptable, in any species it has been proven time and again to cause longterm problems, and what for? So you can improve the physical appearance of a cat/breed, i think its absolutely disgusting and the sad, irresponsible side to breeding. In my opinion inbreeding is never acceptable and the animals welfare should always come first.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gmj said:


> But is it fair to mate with the queens father because you want tabbies? I don't think any way you look at it, from a genetic and health point of view, that sort of inbreeding can not be good for the babies. Surely, if inbreeding ultimately brings no good, doing that can not be good for anyone but the breeder.
> 
> I just can not see any circumstances where inbreeding, particularly that close is justifiable even if you are breeding in what is good about the breed, ultimately, any weakess is going to be emphasised


Well, the girl's parents were an almost total outcross to each other as far as I can tell, so I don't forsee any problems. It's not my first choice scenario, we shall see. Another possibility is to pay the blood tests and stud fee and go out to stud but that is rather difficult to justify when I have (temporarily) four boys here!

I have also committed myself to a complete outcross (as in to a different breed) this year.

Liz


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

In sourcing a total outcross, do you find breeders in other breeds hostile to their cat being used in an outcross program?
Are outcrosses usually boys or girls?
Do you use public studs as an outcross or do you buy your own?


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

I haven't done an total outcross (yet, I'm thinking about outcrossing with Aby), but usually a public stud is used. It's easiest(?) and cheapest that way. If you wanna use a female you have to buy one and since you usually just breed one litter and then go on with the offspring it's a quite expensive way buying a female. If you'd buy a stud you could have him as a public stud which would make it less expensive to buy a stud if you wanna buy the cat used.

Anyway, in Sweden usually public studs are used. Some breeders have used their own DSH. I don't think it's a problem getting a stud owner to agree to such a breeding if you can show that you have a plan for your breeding plans. Members of FIFé have to have this kind of breeding program approved ahead so a FIFé member probably should show the stud owner some kind of proof of the breeding program being approved.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

Angeli said:


> It might not be acceptable but nearly every breed of cat has been inbred to some extent. Those that have small gene pools have had to do it to keep the breed going, so done as a necessity not a choice, as someone else said it might not be obvious looking at a four or five generation pedigree but it may be further down the line.
> 
> Im a keen line chaser myself and have studied lots of pedigrees where the same names crop up regularly, every breed will have at least one of these in their background...........plus you also have to take into account the accuracy of the pedigree itself.


Thanks Angeli, I understand, must be interesting looking down the lines. However I would rather see a breed die out than accept inbreeding, but thats just me. Its just sad despite how stunning many of these breeds are that we put them through so much just to get them to look a certain way of establish a certain breed.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> In sourcing a total outcross, do you find breeders in other breeds hostile to their cat being used in an outcross program?
> Are outcrosses usually boys or girls?
> Do you use public studs as an outcross or do you buy your own?


Depends - the last total outcross I did, I was lucky enough to be able to buy in two active register adults. This time, I don't know. I have a preference but it might prove impossible to find the right kitten. I have other ideas if that one can't be done.

Liz


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I can see the outcross scenario being OK in certain breeds that do that out of necessity at the moment, eg breeds with exceptionally small gene pools or breeds that perhaps are the consequence of 2 pedigree breeds anyway, but would it still be seen to be acceptable in an established breed eg the Burmese to use a DSH as a total outcross, or to go to perhaps to another pedigree breed to source an outcross mating or buy a cat on the Active register.

I know the GCCF will have to rethink the close inbreeding position but it may not save some breeds that are very inbred, total outcrosses may become the norm ??


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I can see the outcross scenario being OK in certain breeds that do that out of necessity at the moment, eg breeds with exceptionally small gene pools or breeds that perhaps are the consequence of 2 pedigree breeds anyway, but would it still be seen to be acceptable in an established breed eg the Burmese to use a DSH as a total outcross, or to go to perhaps to another pedigree breed to source an outcross mating or buy a cat on the Active register.


The rules for Burmese are at least straightforward. Yes you can do any outcross you like. It's just that you then have to go to the sixth generation before you can register kittens as Burmese. This is what I am going to do. It's which breed to use, and the exact route to use, that is the question for me. My easiest solution is to use a boy I kept because I couldn't sell him, but he is an asian and therefore only a partial outcross. There was someone on here asking to use a pedigree stud (of any breed) for her moggy, and I mailed her and said she could use mine for nothing if she would let me have one of the kittens, but she never replied so I guess she was just a troll after all. I am reluctant to advertise because of attitudes within the breed but it may come to that - if my boy ever shows any interest in girls! Alternatively my parents have an entire boy, a young moggy with a patent leather black coat and rather foreign type, and I could perhaps use him with my girl if they don't get him "done" (my mother wants to but father is very much against), but I'd rather not "waste" a litter from my girl on half-pedigrees.

The situation in the Burmese is such that we need lots and lots of breeders to do outcrosses. The difficulty of course is going to be finding enough stud owners to accept reference register girls to get through the five generations. The other useful thing that could be done, but is banned by the GCCF at the moment - is to import. Until that is allowed, the only way we can get outcrosses in the breed, and still register with the GCCF, is to go to another breed.

Liz


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Right from the start I made it clear that I am new to all this and did not know what was what. I may look like a total dumbo but can someone expain in idiots language what all the 'inbreeding' and 'outcrossing' is all about? I want to understand it all and frankly, dont


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

gmj said:


> Right from the start I made it clear that I am new to all this and did not know what was what. I may look like a total dumbo but can someone expain in idiots language what all the 'inbreeding' and 'outcrossing' is all about? I want to understand it all and frankly, dont


Inbreeding is when you breed relatives, pure and simple. Some like to define inbreeding as breedings with only close relatives (breeding a cat with its father, mother, sister, brother, half sister, half brother and cousins) but in it's simplest definition it's about breeding relatives. The more closely related the riskier, but also greater chance of "fixing" the type (that's mostly why you inbreed).

Outcrossing can be used in to ways:
1. When you breed unrelated cats within a breed.
2. When you breed a cat of one breed with a cat of another breed in order to enhance the genetic diversity within the breed.


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> It's true that inbreeding usually is used to establish breeds, but it is in no means the only way. The other way just takes longer time.


Absolutely,slowly,slowly what is they say Rome wasn't built in a day


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## Siamese Kelly (Jan 6, 2008)

gmj said:


> Right from the start I made it clear that I am new to all this and did not know what was what. I may look like a total dumbo but can someone expain in idiots language what all the 'inbreeding' and 'outcrossing' is all about? I want to understand it all and frankly, dont


Your not a total dumbo gmg,if you don't ask how will you learnA total dumbo would just assume and go ahead anyways as we have read about and seen,it's great that you want to learn from scratch and understand more about what you may want to embark on....if their were more like you,i for one think the breeding world may be in a better state


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Thank you Kelly, that makes me feel a whole lot better


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

gmj
Cerridwen described it well. 
Some also call it *line breeding*, usually when it is not so close as first degree relatives, however it is really all inbreeding.

If you have a lot of children in a family, you often see a resemblance between them all, they may not be exactly twins but there is some similarity. If you then chose two siblings or two cousins or half siblings who looked alike and bred them together then the children of that pairing would look very like their parents. This is what the whole thing is about in animal breeding.

It is illegal in humans but in animals it has been up till now fairly routine and acceptable


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## gmj (Apr 6, 2009)

Thank you lauren for that very easy to understand explanation, you made it sound so easy.

What it has also helped me decide is that my feelings about this was always right, inbreeding is wrong, it does not do any favours for the health of the babies and just becasue they look like the breeder wants them to, does not mean it is ok. 

It also makes me realise how naive I was when I trusted a breeder and took my girl to her, only to find months later when doing the pedigree's that my girls babies Dad, was also their great grandad. I take responsibility for it happening, I should have known as I should have checked but I did not in a million years this anyone would think this was ok but I kept being told it was normal for this to be done.

She is small but of fabulous 'type' but all the more reason to have her neutured as planned as I am not going to bring babies into the world where they have the same cat as their grandad and great great grandad.

Human or animal, inbreeding brings only brings problems, something I certainly am not prepared to contribute to.

thank you so much:thumbup:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

lizward said:


> The rules for Burmese are at least straightforward. Yes you can do any outcross you like. It's just that you then have to go to the sixth generation before you can register kittens as Burmese. This is what I am going to do.


Thanks Liz, for explaining your plans. 6 generations is a huge undertaking.
I think though as more and more become aware of the inbreeding problems then it may be more acceptable for stud owners and breeders to accept these girls especially as you have a program and goal in mind.

If it was possible to import, would the imports be totally unrelated to the UK Burmese?


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