# Check breeder status



## Jenny19 (Feb 15, 2017)

Hi,
I've found some kittens online that will be available soon, I've done a lot of research on the breeder and they've got a website, facebook page and I've heard from a few people on a cat page that they've bought kittens from them and have no problems. The ad says they are GCCF registered, but I can't see them on there, I've checked TICA and can't see them either, I've googled the breeder and FIFe is coming up but it's so confusing to find registered breeders on there! Is there a simple search I can do to check they are pedigree registered?! They seem legit but I just want to check the paperwork is there when handing over so much money!
Thanks


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Breeders are not registered, their cats are. There is a GCCF Breeder scheme but relatively few breeders belong to it. You can check if the breeder's prefix is a GCCF one here. www.gccfcats.org/portals/0/registered%20Prefixes.pdf
When you collect your kitten you hand over the money and you will be given the registration papers at the same time unless it is agreed in writing by both parties that this is not the case. eg if there has been a delay in registering the kittens. The kitten must be at least 13 weeks old and its initial vaccination course must have been completed at least 7 days before.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

I emailed GCCF with the breeders name and the name of the cattery and they were able to confirm to me that they were registered with GCCF


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry to repeat myself but most breeders are not 'registered' with the GCCF. I suppose the limited number of breeders in the Breeder scheme have to 'register' but they also pay an annual fee. The usual procedure is to buy a prefix and then register kittens but even breeders without a prefix can register kittens with a GCCF administrative prefix.

One way of checking would be to obtain the pedigree of the kitten you are wanting to purchase and ask the GCCF to check the registration numbers are valid and fit the names of the cats. I think there is a fee for checking pedigrees.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

QOTN said:


> Sorry to repeat myself but most breeders are not 'registered' with the GCCF. I suppose the limited number of breeders in the Breeder scheme have to 'register' but they also pay an annual fee. The usual procedure is to buy a prefix and then register kittens but even breeders without a prefix can register kittens with a GCCF administrative prefix.
> 
> One way of checking would be to obtain the pedigree of the kitten you are wanting to purchase and ask the GCCF to check the registration numbers are valid and fit the names of the cats. I think there is a fee for checking pedigrees.


I have no doubt that this post represents the letter of the law and that QOTN is completely right.

My breeder was not registered with the breeder scheme and like the OP I was worried that I could no mention of them from the GCCF. But when I provided the breeders name and cattery name to GCCF a very helpful lady was able to look this up and found that they had registered many kittens in the past.

I do not know if this is how it is supposed to work, but it worked for me. If the OP is a little unsure and perhaps does not have the exactly pedigree info it may be worth still giving them an email, it worked for me and made me feel much better about the situation. As you said this may not be the formal to do it, but if it settles to OP's mind, maybe it is worth a quick email.

Just my 2p as I very recently found myself in a similar situation


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ultimately caveat emptor - buyer beware. There are breeders with registered prefixes who are awful, worse than some BYBs. You've not said what breed so no-one here can get in touch by PM to help. However I think there are a number of things to bear in mind:

You must be comfortable talking to them, and when you meet them
Don't put down a deposit without visiting the breeder
Look in the back garden and so on. Whilst studs normally live in pens in the garden, if they have lots of pens & queens out there you probably want to thing again
All the cats & kittens you see should look healthy
Prices vary with area & breed, but particularly cheap or expensive breeders should in my view be avoided
Whilst the house may not be up to Kim & Aggie's standards, it should be reasonably clean, litter trays should be clean, there should be clean water down and any food shouldn't look dried up and stale
Kittens go through thinner & fatter phases, and might be sleepy, but eyes, ears & bum should all be clean and they shouldn't be really thin
It's good if the breeder's other cats are outgoing and come to investigate you. Indeed some of us use that as a way of checking potential buyers!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

This also:

http://www.gccfcats.org/Buying-a-kitten


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Excellent, clear advice @OrientalSlave  It would be really useful to have a sticky on 'buying a kitten'. (I don't think there is one...) Fancy starting a thread ?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Jenny19 said:


> Hi,
> I've found some kittens online that will be available soon, I've done a lot of research on the breeder and they've got a website, facebook page and I've heard from a few people on a cat page that they've bought kittens from them and have no problems. The ad says they are GCCF registered, but I can't see them on there, I've checked TICA and can't see them either, I've googled the breeder and FIFe is coming up but it's so confusing to find registered breeders on there! Is there a simple search I can do to check they are pedigree registered?! They seem legit but I just want to check the paperwork is there when handing over so much money!
> Thanks


@Jenny19 I show with FIFe PM and I will see if I know them, if you like. But what Oriental Slave says still applies, and I would add you want to meet mum.

I have my cattery name registered with FIFe, as you have to register all kittens with FIFe from a FIFE registered queen but I can still register kittens with GCCF as they are also GCCF registered cats. So rather than pay out twice for cattery names, I can either import kittens in or register the litter under an admin prefix with GCCF


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It doesn't take long for it to be cheaper to have a gccf prefix than register with the admin prefix - somewhere round 8 kittens I think


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> It doesn't take long for it to be cheaper to have a gccf prefix than register with the admin prefix - somewhere round 8 kittens I think


Ridiculously it's only £18 to import a cat with two GCCF parents compared to £18 per kitten plus £5 per litter.

And with FIFe you have to have a 4 gen pedigree when registering kittens but it's not too bad at £7.50.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> It doesn't take long for it to be cheaper to have a gccf prefix than register with the admin prefix - somewhere round 8 kittens I think


Pet buyers don't seem to get that anyone can buy a GCCF prefix. It is an admin purchase and it makes no difference whatsoever if something goes wrong. The GCCF have the same rules and disciplinary procedures for breeders who register kittens with them whether a breeder has chosen to buy a prefix or not.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Ridiculously it's only £18 to import a cat with two GCCF parents compared to £18 per kitten plus £5 per litter.
> 
> And with FIFe you have to have a 4 gen pedigree when registering kittens but it's not too bad at £7.50.


I was thinking about this part of your post:



lillytheunicorn said:


> So rather than pay out twice for cattery names, I can either import kittens in or *register the litter under an admin prefix with GCCF*


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> Pet buyers don't seem to get that anyone can buy a GCCF prefix. It is an admin purchase and it makes no difference whatsoever if something goes wrong. The GCCF have the same rules and disciplinary procedures for breeders who register kittens with them whether a breeder has chosen to buy a prefix or not.


Well not quite anyone - you can't simply ring the GCCF up and get one, there has to be a club willing to countersign one's application, but some clubs sign for anyone.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I checked the costs for prefix & non-prefix GCCF registrations:

Prefix Registration – £5 per litter + £9 per cat/kitten 
Non-Prefix Registration – £5 per litter + £18 per cat/kitten
Import Registration – £18.00 if both parents registered GCCF. Do they need to be chipped? I'm assuming there is no need for a certified pedigree since the parents are both GCCF registered.
Prefix Application £75.00

So it cost £4 more to register a single kitten by import compared to a prefix registration.

75/4 = 18.75, so once you have imported 19 kittens into GCCF it has cost you more than registering a prefix. Once registered the prefix is yours for life.

And a non-prefix registration costs more than importing!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Well not quite anyone - you can't simply ring the GCCF up and get one, there has to be a club willing to countersign one's application, but some clubs sign for anyone.


I agree there's a process but it isn't difficult, nor does it add much expense. It doesn't add any extra protection for the buyer - it can in many cases give a false sense of security.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Import Registration - £18.00 if both parents registered GCCF. Do they need to be chipped? I'm assuming there is no need for a certified pedigree since the parents are both GCCF registered.


If both parents are GCCF registered why is there a need to import? Why can't the kitten just be registered as any other kitten would be? Is this just a matter of terminology or am I missing something? I've never had to import a cat into the GCCF and I understood it to be something only necessary if the cat was bred under a different registry.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> If both parents are GCCF registered why is there a need to import? Why can't the kitten just be registered as any other kitten would be? Is this just a matter of terminology or am I missing something? I've never had to import a cat into the GCCF and I understood it to be something only necessary if the cat was bred under a different registry.


Bizarrely importing is cheaper than an administration prefix registration, assuming there is no requirement for chipping! But it's not me doing it, it's @lillytheunicorn.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Bizarrely importing is cheaper than an administration prefix registration, assuming there is no requirement for chipping! But it's not me doing it, it's @lillytheunicorn.


OK I've clicked - they are already registered with another registry so can be imported from that registry into the GCCF. It's an interesting point about the price, I know quite a few breeders who dual register but they are prefix holders. For a non prefix holder it is cheaper to import than dual register.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I don't think there is a specific requirement for chipping as there chip ID isn't on their pedigrees. You do have to have a certified pedigree for import even with two GCCF parents but all FIFe registered kittens come with a 4 generation pedigree it as part of the registrar process. 

Thankfully it's a similar price for FIFe registrations with my club as it is £5 per litter and £7.50 per kitten with a 4 gen pedigree or £15 with a 5-gen pedigree. 

The reason I imported my neuters in despite the breeder having a GCCF prefix rather than getting her to dual register them was I hadn't planning to show GCCF as initially I had been put off by some semi-longhairs GCCF people. I then met some foreign exhibitor who were lovely so I imported him to go to the show up the road with them. The foreign, Siamese and oriental section have always been fab. Not sure if it's because I am imposter with the fluffies.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Worth a mention as BSH make up almost 30% of all registrations with GCCF. Another reason for importing (back) onto the GCCF register (by breeders who actually work solely within GCCF) in my breed is that in a proportion of cases cats will be registered with TICA and then the next generation imported back onto the GCCF register. This happens for several reasons which would otherwise have resulted in GCCF refusing to register or the cats/kittens being on the reference register. So, a cat with a pedigree which does not fit the registration policy for any number of reasons, an imported cat who was orginally registered with an overseas body that GCCF do not recognise (there are many), an imported cat whose pedigree does not fit with the registration policy and where no Certificate of Entirety was available for the stud to be able to register his kittens with GCCF. Loopholes, unfortunately.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The GCCF does have a very complicated registration policy for BSH, but I thought imports had to comply with it except where stated?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Would that be why my two imports are on the full registry, yet the registered kitten who is ones full niece crossed with dad of the other is on the supplementary register?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Would that be why my two imports are on the full registry, yet the registered kitten who is ones full niece crossed with dad of the other is on the supplementary register?


You need to look at the registration policy to see why. Sometimes they get it wrong as well - I know someone who mated two cats on the full register and the kitten was supplementary! When I looked carefully the stud should have been supplementary.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Obviously the computer system has its limitations and unfortunately the office staff do not have the knowledge required to be able to identify inconsistencies. When we were progressing the cinnamons and fawns some cats who should have been reference register were supplementary and vice versa. Needless to say we notified the office of the former and not the latter but that was because the number of generations required is fairly academic. It is to be hoped the system works better with cats who are on the reference register with no progression or there is little point in having that section.

I also know of at least two instances where the computer has picked up an obvious 'mistake' but missed the one possibly generations before which caused the anomalous cat to appear. One was obviously a chocolate classic tabby but was not allowed because, in a previous mating of the same two black cats, one of the offspring had been registered fawn. The other was a chocolate point supposedly out of two dilutes! This highlights the difficulty of correct registration when the breeders themselves are getting it wrong in many instances.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> <snip>
> One was obviously a chocolate classic tabby but was not allowed because, in a previous mating of the same two black cats, one of the offspring had been registered fawn. The other was a chocolate point supposedly out of two dilutes! This highlights the difficulty of correct registration when the breeders themselves are getting it wrong in many instances.


It doesn't help that as far as I can tell quite a few breeders have a somewhat hazy understanding of genetics. However at least now if necessary we can DNA test. I hope the new computer system would refuse to register a black/chocolate/cinnamon cat out of two dilutes, unless there was a DNA test to back it up.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

They do have to comply in various different ways. To give a few examples... if there is a cat of a colour/pattern/a longhair variant/and less often a breed within X number of generations on a pedigree that is not acceptable for GCCF registration then registering with TICA for a generation (or two) and then importing the subsequent generation back onto the GCCF register is a way around that. The same applies for registering kittens from a stud that isn't entire and the same also applies for registering a cat originally registered with an overseas body that GCCF do not recognise.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> *It doesn't help that as far as I can tell quite a few breeders have a somewhat hazy* *understanding of genetics*. However at least now if necessary we can DNA test. I hope the new computer system would refuse to register a black/chocolate/cinnamon cat out of two dilutes, unless there was a DNA test to back it up.


I think the dense coloured cat allegedly from 2 dilutes was from a byb who did not register her kittens although her breeding cats were GCCF and she was careless about who mated who. The new owner tried to register the girl as chocolate point which she obviously was and was told by the office the only option was fawn! That is how I came to hear of it. Why on earth did they not suggest lilac?

I think your remark about breeders and genetics is extremely charitable especially since, in the other case I mentioned, it was obvious that the kitten registered as fawn could not possibly be simply by looking at the pedigree. Consequently I would hesitate to advise those trying to find out about cinnamon and fawn genetics that they should approach the OCFG!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I think your remark about breeders and genetics is extremely charitable


Some I think genuinely cant understand it especially when cinnamon is involved, and I also know DRX breeders who seem to be in a fog - a consequence in my view of being able to put a DRX down as black when it's white and still get a certificate!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> It doesn't help that as far as I can tell quite a few breeders have a somewhat hazy understanding of genetics.


And how!!!! I will never forget the breeder who insisted that her Cream kitten was 'genetically chocolate'. When three breeders told her that a dilute couldn't mask a non dilute colour she informed them, none too politely it has to be said, that the kitten was chocolate and she then blocked them facebook!!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry to be dense (forgive the pun) but why could the cream kitten not be genetically chocolate? In Siamese and Orientals, the reds and creams from chocolate and cinnamon based cats are considered to be a better colour than the black (seal) ones.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> You need to look at the registration policy to see why. Sometimes they get it wrong as well - I know someone who mated two cats on the full register and the kitten was supplementary! When I looked carefully the stud should have been supplementary.


The Norwegian registration policy is relatively simple , full register have in their pedigrees within six generations only Norwegian Forest Cats. And supplemental have 3 generations of only Norwegian Forest Cats.

I have looked back and the kitten on the supplementary register is 11 generations from novice, through her mothers side i.e her uncle (full register) is 10 generations from foundation cats. I also checked for Amber (the x colours) as GCCF wouldn't originally recognise the colour and that is absent for at least the last 6 generations.

I am still none the wiser, might have to give in and contact GCCF.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I feel very dim myself re the chocolate remark. Red series cats, whether red or cream, can be genetically chocolate yet not show it in the phenotype. However, my brain is in a complete fog of toal exhaustion, so it is possible, scratch that, probable, that I am getting something completely wrong.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I hope lady with the genetically chocolate cream kitten gets an apology from one of those breeders some day lol!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I am afraid this is the confusion over colours and genetic colours. We all loosely call blue, lilac, fawn and cream 'colours' in general conversation but in fact they are not genetic colours at all. They are black, chocolate, cinnamon or red with the addition of two dilute genes.

Add to this the fact that red is epistatic and masks the base colour(s) and it is hardly surprising there is confusion.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Sorry to be dense (forgive the pun) but why could the cream kitten not be genetically chocolate? In Siamese and Orientals, the reds and creams from chocolate and cinnamon based cats are considered to be a better colour than the black (seal) ones.


Maybe she should have said lilac?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

The simple fact was the kitten could not have been chocolate, not even the Dilute version (Lilac). I have no idea why the breeder was so convinced it was.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> The simple fact was the kitten could not have been chocolate, not even the Dilute version (Lilac). I have no idea why the breeder was so convinced it was.


But under the cream?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> But under the cream?


It would have been Dilute, carrying chocolate. sire was Lilac but the dam didn't carry chocolate. There was a Lilac ancestor back in the pedigree I seem to recall but the queen was colour tested (she was cream too). It was a bit of an odd episode to be honest.

It wasn't this particular incident that got me blocked though, it was the fact I was the friend of the person she attempted to steal a cat from that got me given the boot (long story, and one that sadly has repeated itself at least twice since!!)


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Tigermoon said:


> The simple fact was the kitten could not have been chocolate, not even the Dilute version (Lilac). I have no idea why the breeder was so convinced it was.


Surely it would have been better to explain to the breeder the reason why the cat could not be genetically chocolate instead of giving a different questionable reason which could be disputed on the grounds of terminology.

If the dam of the cat in question had been DNA tested negative for chocolate then that is a very good reason to say the cat must be black (seal) carrying chocolate.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Surely it would have been better to explain to the breeder the reason why the cat could not be genetically chocolate instead of giving a different questionable reason which could be disputed on the grounds of terminology.


What do you think we did!!!!! She wasn't having any of it I'm afraid.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Going back to the original topic, not all breeders are listed on the GCCF registered prefix list.

You can contact GCCF, or google the breed club to see if they're on a club list.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Going back to the original topic, not all breeders are listed on the GCCF registered prefix list.
> 
> You can contact GCCF, or google the breed club to see if they're on a club list.


Breed club websites are often not up-to-date and many breeders don't belong to a club.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> Breed club websites are often not up-to-date and many breeders don't belong to a club.


I agree. I just wanted to address the post that said about the prefix list as many take that as up to date and gospel which it sadly isn't. Like many things related to the GCCF, it can struggle to keep up to date which is a frustration. Still, I find GCCF far easier to deal with than TICA or Fife


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Breed club websites are often not up-to-date and many breeders don't belong to a club.


And the prefix list doesn't tell you anything about the breeder other than they paid to register a prefix. Once paid for a prefix is for life no matter how good or bad a breeder is. The GCCF can't take it away when they suspend a bad breeder - they'd have to refund if they did.


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