# Insurance for Breeding Queens



## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi

I just wondered who you used for insurance for your breeding queens?

Im just looking at Agria who have quoted me £21 for Martha does this seem about right? I havent bothered with accidential death etc and getting my money back that i paid for her or holiday cancellation or overseas expenses, ive just chosen the breeding options and a cover of £12,500.

It also looks like they dont do life cover is this correct?

Any help/opinions much appreciated - thanks


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Agria started that breeding risks cover several years ago and premiums seem to be creeping up and the cover/what they offer is changing. I had a quote initially a couple of years ago (which I didn't do in the end) which was circa £12/month. Eventually covered one of the girls from last year, exactly the same cover as the previous quote, now £16/month. 

For that £16/month, I too opted out of all the things you mentioned but I'm sure ours is considerably lower than £12,500 cover but I did go for the low excess and 0% to pay towards any claims. I can't find my paperwork at the mo (which won't surprise you, I know lol) but I'll find it and check.

All a bit academic really as Agria are the only, as far as I'm aware, company that offer breeding risks cover - or at least one with realistic levels of cover and premiums that are remotely affordable. I had a quote from Pet Plan at the same time... forget it.

ETA: No, there's no life cover with the breeding risks policy, I'm pretty sure.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Ha ha i was just about to check Pet Plan but i can imagine what their quote is going to be like! 

There is a lower cover for £6,500 on Agria - so i just tried that with the low excess and 0% to pay towards any claims and it came back as £22 per month!

So both mine seems a lot more than yours lol!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

kellyrich said:


> There is a lower cover for £6,500 on Agria - so i just tried that with the low excess and 0% to pay towards any claims and it came back as £22 per month!


How the heck did they work that one out? Because of low xs and 0% I guess?

I think that's what ours is, £6,500... oh actually, do you mean £6,500 specifically for breeding risks?

The other thing I like about their policy is that it covers the queen's kittens from birth to 20 weeks or whenever they leave for new homes, whichever is the soonest.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

No the actual policy is covered for £6,500 - the breeding risks cover is £1000 on both the £12,500 and £6,500 policy.

xx


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## Sally Hayward (Apr 14, 2013)

What makes you think the Agria policy is not a lifetime policy? Certainly says on the website it is... fully reinstates the benefits when you renew each year.

Breeding risks is optional. Here is a link to the policy booklet. https://www.agriavet.co.uk/globalweb/Resources/Agria_Pet_Insurance_Full_Terms_and_Conditions.pdf


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

All my girls are on their breeding polices .. And I pay about £17 

I haven't had any problem with them paying out but I recently had a claim for a C section and spay when I tried to cancel the policy due to not needing it anymore and possible re-home they will not cancel .. So I have to keep paying until my policy runs out .(October) .. Even if i re-home her I still need to carry on making the payments because I have made a claim .. Madness


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Yeah insurance companies always do seem to catch you out in some way dont they lol!


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## Sally Hayward (Apr 14, 2013)

Cosmills said:


> All my girls are on their breeding polices .. And I pay about £17
> 
> I haven't had any problem with them paying out but I recently had a claim for a C section and spay when I tried to cancel the policy due to not needing it anymore and possible re-home they will not cancel .. So I have to keep paying until my policy runs out .(October) .. Even if i re-home her I still need to carry on making the payments because I have made a claim .. Madness


Unfortunately you will find this happens with all insurances whether car/home/pet etc.

This is because they are annual policies (which they allow you to pay in monthly instalments).

You agree to pay the agreed premium in return for being able to make claims if necessary.

As a concession most insurers will now allow you to cancel if you haven't made a claim and get a pro-rata refund (although not all!).

But if you have claimed you have effectively "used" the policy and therefore can't get a refund. Much in the same way as you can't take back a dress once who have worn it even if you are paying by monthly instalments.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Unfortunately, Agria (like a few others) dump your monthly payments through a financial subsidiary that they own. So, basically they argue that they've sold you an annual policy but you've paid for it via a finance house. The debt you owe is to the finance house - not them as an insurer. They've been on Watchdog and in the Sunday Times (twice) for this practice. You can generally tell the companies that use this route because they say something like "Monthly payments at 0% interest"

It's a mean-spirited, nasty, way of doing business - and Agria were the reason I set up my website - to look for companies that play fair with clients because I got caught by this (and various other things like charging 3 excesses for the same complaint). Agria are the pond scum of pet insurers.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> Unfortunately, Agria (like a few others) dump your monthly payments through a financial subsidiary that they own. So, basically they argue that they've sold you an annual policy but you've paid for it via a finance house. The debt you owe is to the finance house - not them as an insurer. They've been on Watchdog and in the Sunday Times (twice) for this practice. You can generally tell the companies that use this route because they say something like "Monthly payments at 0% interest"
> 
> It's a mean-spirited, nasty, way of doing business - and Agria were the reason I set up my website - to look for companies that play fair with clients because I got caught by this (and various other things like charging 3 excesses for the same complaint). Agria are the pond scum of pet insurers.


But if no other companies insure for breeding risks then the only choice is Agria.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Albert, I know you've had very bad experience of Agria and, believe me, I'm no great fan myself of insurance companies in general and some of the practices they adopt.

If a breeder wants breeding risks insurance there is, at the moment, no alternative to Agria bar Pet Plan but, whilst highly regarded, their breeding risks cover (in itself and comparing it to Agria's) is very poor indeed and the premiums far, far higher than Agria's.

I took out an Agria policy including breeding risks last year for one of my cats just to test the water with them. I feel that the premiums (though they are creeping up) are reasonable and their customer service so far has been excellent. I had to make a claim a few months into the policy and, again, the service was excellent and they paid promptly with only one minor dispute over the fact that they wouldn't cover a pre-anaesthesia blood test which I understand some other insurers will cover.

Agria's policy with breeding risks cover included is very popular with breeders at the moment and certainly everyone I know has had nothing but a good experience of them.

All that said, I do wonder for how long the premiums will remain as competitive as they are for the level of cover they provide once Agria have several more years claims experience, particularly with cat breeders. To me, what is covered under their policy for the premiums they charge seems a little on the generous side. (And I never thought I'd hear myself say that of an insurer!).


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> All that said, I do wonder for how long the premiums will remain as competitive as they are for the level of cover they provide


They're currently still actively looking to woo breeders away from Petplan for kitten cover so I'd imagine there's a way to go yet. They've recently extended kitten cover, an indication they're still having to work hard to get the hold they want in the marketplace.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> They're currently still actively looking to woo breeders away from Petplan for kitten cover so I'd imagine there's a way to go yet. They've recently extended kitten cover, an indication they're still having to work hard to get the hold they want in the marketplace.


I saw that they'd increased the kitten cover to 5 weeks. I had to check myself not to be happy, considering that I was being given back only half of something that they (well, OK, Pet Plan) had taken away in the first place 

But I've never actually used the Agria cover notes for kittens anyway, having just stuck with Pet Plan purely because I'm familiar with them.

You've probably seen it, but Pet Plan are currently circulating a survey to breeders in relation to breeding risks insurance... obviously feeling the need to grab back Agria's share.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Agria signed up with both the Kennel Club and the GCCF as the _de facto_ insurer for both. They've paid both organisations a very large amount of money to do so. It doesn't make them good insurers. I'm aware that only they and Pet Plan offer(ed) breeding insurance. That's a niche market that is highly risky for breeding queens, which is why most insurers won't touch it. Agria are huge and have many years in the pet insurance market. It would not surprise me if part of their deal with the GCCF/KC was that they had to provide breeding insurance. Doing so acts as a 'trap' for breeders to offer puppy/kitten freebie insurance - a practice which has resulted in lots of new owners being stuck with a policy that they don't want but can't get out of.

A litmus test might be to ask your vet which of the two companies he'd rather deal with (if either). But the fact remains that Agria will charge you the rest of a year's premiums, even if your pet died 1 day into the cover, whereas Pet Plan won't.

I'm fully aware of the tricks that many insurers use and I wouldn't really defend any of them but there's no question that some are way better than others - and Agria is just about the bottom of the pile.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

As with everything, taking out insurance is a matter of risk. I never insured my cats but after getting whacked by three, yes three, C-sections in one year I began to think differently. I have since insured my breeding queens with Agria.

However my personal opinion is that for pet animals, the chances are that insurance just isn't worth it and you'd be much better off putting £20 or so a month away into an account that it is tricky to get the money out of (such as an online only account) to pay for surprise vet bills. Of course its unlikely to cover something major, like a visit to Noel Fitzpatrick or diabetes, but that's the risk you take.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Tigermoon said:


> As with everything, taking out insurance is a matter of risk. I never insured my cats but after getting whacked by three, yes three, C-sections in one year I began to think differently. I have since insured my breeding queens with Agria.
> 
> However my personal opinion is that for pet animals, the chances are that insurance just isn't worth it and you'd be much better off putting £20 or so a month away into an account that it is tricky to get the money out of (such as an online only account) to pay for surprise vet bills. Of course its unlikely to cover something major, like a visit to Noel Fitzpatrick or diabetes, but that's the risk you take.


Three in one year!! 

I dont insure my boys i use my own money or my savings and it has cost me a bit of money lately but it would have cost me a lot more to pay monthly insurance bills for the last how ever many years.

But now that i am breeding i do want to get Martha covered


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## lollo2304 (Feb 3, 2009)

My queen is insured with Agria for breeding risks. I pay around £18 monthly.

Last year one of my kittens developed and eye issue. After referral to a specialist she was diagnosed with bilateral cataracts and would need surgery as her sight was already very limited. I claimed on the breeding cover as she was 12 weeks at diagnosis. I then started a new policy in the kitten in question and continued to claim. She has so far been covered for over £5000 worth of treatment. Her eye issues are covered for life providing she is always insured and there is no break in cover. The insurance is transferable should I ever rehome the kitten.

For me this breeding cover is invaluable! To know that kittens will be covered should they develop a problem is worth all the premiums I pay.


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## kellyrich (Jan 8, 2009)

Ha ha everybody seems to be paying a bit less than what ive been quoted lol!

Well it was definitely well worth the insurance you pay for then, thats good x


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

kellyrich said:


> Ha ha everybody seems to be paying a bit less than what ive been quoted lol!
> 
> Well it was definitely well worth the insurance you pay for then, thats good x


I think it depends on where you live too. I am paying between £17 and £19 a month for mine.


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## lollo2304 (Feb 3, 2009)

Just checked and my latest girl which is an import is £21 per month.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> It would not surprise me if part of their deal with the GCCF/KC was that they had to provide breeding insurance. Doing so acts as a 'trap' for breeders to offer puppy/kitten freebie insurance - a practice which has resulted in lots of new owners being stuck with a policy that they don't want but can't get out of.
> 
> A litmus test might be to ask your vet which of the two companies he'd rather deal with (if either).


My vet would definitely say that he would rather deal with Pet Plan because he said as much to me last year! I have little doubt that they are a more polished outfit than Agria.

I must say though that I think your experience of Agria colours your view. I think you overrate GCCF as an organisation if you believe they were instrumental in twisting Agria's arm into providing breeding insurance. Even if they did, without wanting to sound flippant, so what? I and many others think that we have benefited from it.

It also does not act a trap as there is no connection between the 5 weeks "free" kitten cover and breeding risks products. I have breeding risks cover but the cover note books that Agria send me (via the GCCF connection) go straight in the bin as I prefer to use the Pet Plan kitten cover.

Nor does providing either company's kitten cover set a trap for the owner. They are free to choose whether or not to continue with a yearly policy with any insurer of their choice.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

What is obvious is that the competition between the two will not (unfortunately) lead to a price war. Petplan are looking at breeding cover and Agria have increased their kitten cover from four weeks to five. Not hard to determine where each thinks they're being outdone by the other


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

To contradict my first paragraph above, I'm currently a short way into making a claim with Pet Plan. So far, the customer service has been appalling. They very much encourage policyholders to download and print their own claim forms. That's something I can't do at the moment and, boy, do they make you pay for the fact that you've caused them to send you a form and pay for its postage.

It took 11 working days for the first claim form to arrive. I had four telephone conversations with their claims department (when I was chasing up the form) and I had to tell them THREE times that no, my kitten wasn't now "on the mend" but had been put to sleep. Throughout all those four conversations not once was I told that I needed to ask for a separate "death of a pet" claim form. I requested one on the 4th March. It still hasn't arrived.


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## Sally Hayward (Apr 14, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Nor does providing either company's kitten cover set a trap for the owner. They are free to choose whether or not to continue with a yearly policy with any insurer of their choice.


Ah.. .but only free to choose providing the kitten does not see a vet for anything non-routine in those "free weeks"! Otherwise by the end of the free period they have a pre-existing condition.. and are effectively trapped ... the only company that will give them full cover is the one which provided the free kitten cover!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Sally Hayward said:


> Ah.. .but only free to choose providing the kitten does not see a vet for anything non-routine in those "free weeks"! Otherwise by the end of the free period they have a pre-existing condition.. and are effectively trapped ... the only company that will give them full cover is the one which provided the free kitten cover!


That would happen with any insurance though, and as the 'free weeks' insurer will also set a restriction on future cover if a claim has been made then the person isn't really forced to continue using them, they'd get the same cover anywhere.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> That would happen with any insurance though, and as the 'free weeks' insurer will also set a restriction on future cover if a claim has been made then the person isn't really forced to continue using them, they'd get the same cover anywhere.


I was just about to say the same. Can't have it all ways, much as we'd like to.


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## lollo2304 (Feb 3, 2009)

Agria were doing breeder cover right from the start I believe, long before GCCF Agria connection. I've had it for my first breeding girl who retired two years ago...

My vet has no issues with Agria. They pay immediately. They preauthorised the cataract surgery within 24 hours! I actually cannot fault them through this at all. This is the specialist vet, my normal vet refuse to do direct claims for less than £1000 anyhow!


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## Sally Hayward (Apr 14, 2013)

Tigermoon said:


> That would happen with any insurance though, and as the 'free weeks' insurer will also set a restriction on future cover if a claim has been made then the person isn't really forced to continue using them, they'd get the same cover anywhere.


Agria and Petplan both say that they will NOT put a restriction on future cover if a claim is made during the free weeks... for example this is a quote from the Agria website.

"This means that, if a condition should start during the 5 week free insurance period, as long as an annual policy begins immediately after the free cover expires, that condition can be covered for the rest of the pet's life."

So yes this does effectively tie the puppy owner in to the "free weeks" insurer as it would be a pre-existing condition with any other insurer!

If this wasn't the case and the "free weeks" insurer was going to put a exclusion on the policy then the puppy owner would be better not using the free cover.. and starting a paid policy immediately which would provide ongoing cover for any conditions starting during those initial weeks.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If this wasn't the case and the "free weeks" insurer was going to put a exclusion on the policy then the puppy owner would be better not using the free cover.. and starting a paid policy immediately which would provide ongoing cover for any conditions starting during those initial weeks.


They'd have to get it started at least two weeks before the puppy/kitten showed any signs of illness. The benefit of the free period through a breeder is full cover from the start with no lead time for illness.


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## Sally Hayward (Apr 14, 2013)

havoc said:


> They'd have to get it started at least two weeks before the puppy/kitten showed any signs of illness. The benefit of the free period through a breeder is full cover from the start with no lead time for illness.


That is a certainly good point. Free puppy/kitten insurance has its pros and cons .. unfortunately most new pet owners don't know enough about it to make an informed choice!


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Sally Hayward said:


> Ah.. .but only free to choose providing the kitten does not see a vet for anything non-routine in those "free weeks"! Otherwise by the end of the free period they have a pre-existing condition.. and are effectively trapped ... the only company that will give them full cover is the one which provided the free kitten cover!


Precisely. And, even then, they may not get full cover. I have had cases where animals covered under the 'free' four week scheme had an illness during that period refused under the 'continuing' cover. Note - the cover you take out after the 4 weeks IS NOT a continuation of the 4 week freebie. It's a brand new policy. It's purely discretionary whether or not the insurer will provide a full cover. Even when the impression that they will do so is part of their publicity the only thing that counts is what's in the policy. Note also, that such continuation, when it exists, often is available only on the most expensive policies.

gskinner123 - yes, my experience with Agria does colour my view - but I didn't instigate either the Watchdog or the two Sunday Times investigations into their practices. The simple fact is that there were many, many people who were caught out by Agria's hidden practices (and they still aren't clear).


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

havoc said:


> They'd have to get it started at least two weeks before the puppy/kitten showed any signs of illness. The benefit of the free period through a breeder is full cover from the start with no lead time for illness.


Which is precisely what I recommend people do in my Buyer's Guide. The four week freebie looks like a lovely thing to give to a new kitten/puppy owner - until the point where they find they are trapped into a deal with an expensive insurer with a poor reputation. At which point they won't be thanking the breeder - at all.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

They're only 'trapped' as you put it if the animal has been ill during that free period and they're no more trapped than at any time they make a claim on any pet insurance. Once they do, at any point during a pet's life, they'd need to stay with that insurer on a lifetime policy for continuing cover. Any new insurer would exclude the condition. If a new owner wants to take out cover with their preferred company two weeks before they take their new kitten there's nothing to stop them, that's the only way they'd get equivalent cover to the free period. They're also at liberty to ask the breeder not to insure the kitten if they feel it's some sort of con.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

AlbertRoss said:


> Which is precisely what I recommend people do in my Buyer's Guide. The four week freebie looks like a lovely thing to give to a new kitten/puppy owner - until the point where they find they are trapped into a deal with an expensive insurer with a poor reputation. At which point they won't be thanking the breeder - at all.


I can only you are suggesting that if they take their own policy out as soon as the kitten becomes theirs then if the kitten is ill, it's ill on the life-long policy, if that is what they have signed up for.

A very small sample, but I have sold 10 kittens each with the Petplan free insurance, and 2 owners have gone on to take out a policy.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> A very small sample, but I have sold 10 kittens each with the Petplan free insurance, and 2 owners have gone on to take out a policy.


Same here, hardly anyone has continued the insurance that I give with the kitten, they either go elsewhere or just don't bother.


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