# Help - Malamute tantrums on a walk



## MallyMan (Dec 7, 2013)

Hi All

I wonder if anyone can help me or offer some advice.

My Malamute bitch (Jazz) is 13months old and it's fair to say she's been a challenge like most malamutes. However we have one particular issue that I need help with most of all.

Basically when taking Jazz for a walk sometimes all of a sudden she will have what seems to be a big tantrum which involves her jumping up and doing everything she can to mouth me or rip my clothes, if you look into her eyes she has gone and will not respond to anything I say. The only way I can control her is to hold her headcollar tight behind her head for a little while until she snaps out of it. This problem started months ago and at one point was happening on every walk and we were getting scratches, bruises and ripped clothes as a result. It is fair to say she has improved a great deal but it still happens on occasions. 

These occasions are:

1/ After we have met another dog, when we say our bye-byes and walk away she will have one of these tantrums nearly every times.

2/ If she is walking through a big pile of leaves or occasionally long grass she will becoming overstimulated and have a tantrum. 

These tantrums used to also be set off by bicycles and other fast traffic but she seems to of grown out of this.

As you can imagine a 35kg Malamute is very difficult to control when they are having a tantrum. As it seems to be a lack of impulse control and a failure to deal with her emotions I've been working on the 'settle' command at home and teaching her to wait for food until I give the command. Nothing seems to cure the problem though. Like I said she has got better as she has got older but I don't want to just hope she grows out of the tantrums only to find that she doesn't and I needed to do something about it. 

I know malamutes are a slow maturing breed and we do still have problems with her not understanding that she can't use her teeth on us, she is not vicious at all but tries to play rough with us. We are right in the middle of the teenage malamute spell which is notoriously hard and i'm trying to bear this in mind.

Has anyone had a similar problem with their malamute or other breed??

Thanks

Mark


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I don't have experience with Mals but I have a 35kg Lab who used to go BESERK at the sight of another dog, if he was on a lead. Leaping, lunging, growling, spinning - he was like a lunatic.

I found the only thing which helped was to take the time to train a rock solid 'watch me'. We started at home, with no distractions, and very gradually built up the time he needed to 'watch' in order to get a treat.

It took a while but it does work. However as you rightly say, if your dog is a teenager that makes things harder 

It does rather sound like your girl is getting over excited. Do you attend any training classes with her?

Alternatively, if you can find a good trainer who only uses positive methods, maybe a few one-on-one sessions? Please avoid anyone who mentions 'dominance' or being 'pack leader'.


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## MallyMan (Dec 7, 2013)

Thanks for the response.

I have been working on the 'look at me' command before issuing treats which works really well at home but hasn't had any effect during a tantrum. It's like she is possessed during these moments.

She does get over excited and has trouble controlling her emotions. We don't do any training at the moment as I work weekends and odd hours. We did when she was a pup to get her socialised. 

I have recently bought a mountain bike and attachment so she can run beside me as I thought this would give her the exercise she craves, the problem is for the first minute she gets over stimulated and jumps up at me on the bike whilst running, after that she starts to calm down. 

There is a reoccurring problem her which is definitely impulse control and the need for desensitization.

Thanks

Mark


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Agree with OBAYL - make sure you have mega tasty treats with you that are only used on walks too. Stick it in front of her nose, to break the trance, and once she has given you a solid "watch me" she can have the treat.

I need to do this with Jack, cos he gets too bouncy at times


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## MallyMan (Dec 7, 2013)

It's the fact the she looks like she NEEDS to mouth me and will do anything to ensure she does. I guess it's just the only way dogs can communicate and when she's in the trance she is not being rational. Hence why I need to teach her how to be rational.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

It's possible that the running is contributing towards the over excitement. My own dog had no impulse control at all when I rehomed him. It's something that needs to be worked on - continuously. I totally appreciate that because of work you don't have as much time as you might like for training, but I think your dog desperately needs some form of ongoing training.

The 'watch me' will only work properly if you build it up - so when it's solid at home, you then need to do it when there are a few low level distractions, then a few more, slowly working up towards the time when your girl is MOST hard to calm down. My own dog is pretty reactive and he too can go into an altered state when he sees horses, for instance.

I would recommend finding a good trainer.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I would have thought 13 months is way too young to be biking a dog, the growth plates will not yet have fused.

I do not bike my dogs until they are at least 18 months old.


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## MallyMan (Dec 7, 2013)

Thanks all.

When I said running with a bike I only mean for a max of around 10minutes, i'm just training her to get used to it not taking her for long distances. Thanks for your concern though.


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

It does sounds like a lack of frustration tolerance and impulse control. I adopted a dog (herding, not a malamute) who became over aroused easily and bit if you ran or played with a toy with her. She was around 8 months old at the stage I took her on. 

I can only echo the advice to get stuck into some training. A rock solid watch is a really useful cue for situations involving passing distractions like other dogs etc. In addition, I found down to be really useful for my over aroused dog. When she was amping up during play I would down her for 20 seconds and then start again, this way she learned better control - not sure why but down seems to have more of a calming effect than sit. Similarly if she becomes too aroused during play with other dogs, I will still down her briefly to let her calm down then release her to go play again. 

I know it can be very difficult to fit in, but training in a group situation is fabulous for dogs who need to learn how to control themselves around other dogs. I would personally suggest not allowing her to actually make contact with unfamiliar dogs when she is on lead for the time being, until she learns how to walk past them calmly ignoring them when required. If you are going to allow a greeting, make sure you ask for a behaviour first such as a watch or sit before cueing her to go ahead and greet. If she can't perform the behaviour you ask for, she doesn't get to greet.

I will add that I have seen a few dogs over the years behave in a similar way to what you describe, and in many of those cases, the lack of frustration tolerance has often gone hand in hand with a very intelligent dog. If this is the case, again training will help because you will be increasing her mental stimulation.

Outside of class situations, there are some really good ways to incorporate a little impulse control into everyday situations (you may already do these?). Ask her to sit before you open the door to let her in or out is good practice at controlling herself when excited. Asking her to sit calmly to have her lead put on before going for a walk, or sit and wait before you cue her to get in or out of the car etc. Sitting and waiting while you put the food bowl down is another opportunity. I also like to use play to teach impulse control. If she will retrieve or play tuggy, you can rehearse getting her aroused, then asking her to calm herself down and perform a behaviour on cue (can be anything but I often use a down or a hand target) before you restart the game as a reward. As she gets better at the game you can ask for longer duration or more difficult behaviours before you restart the game.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Training classes with other dogs around is always a good idea with any dog but even more so with a Mal, they can be devils when they want as you probably already know. The 'red mist' zone is well known with these dogs when out and can be difficult to control, like you say it can be started by bikes, cars, other dogs and especially prey drive. The watch me command had worked well with our three in the past and I wonder if you could pre empt her behaviour as you know roughly when its going to happen, by distracting her immediately with a squeaky toy if you find treats don't help. I once had similar problems with reactiveness and the usual dog treats were totally ignored, so I had to go for higher value rewards. A tube of primular cheese spread worked well, you squeeze just the smallest amount out and the dog goes bansna's trying to lick more from the tube, of course you don't squeeze any more out as Mals have a great tendency for weight gain. One of my Mals has never been interested in food when out at all, yet in the house he's a right pig, lol. He used to be distracted with a small squeak rather than food, a palm sized toy that he never actually got to see but just heard and that got his attention - obviously be careful where you keep it when home as Mals have a bad record of obstruction and toys like that easily slip down their throats. 

If you're on Facebook try joining the Malamute Matters group too, with pet owners and workers on there you can get lots of advice, including the best age to start working, which will help her to focus and stop this unwanted behaviour. 
Not an easy breed at first but they do settle eventually and are THE best dogs IMO but of course I am biased. I like the group because we are, or have been, in the same boat and its nice to share experiences with people who are have dealt with similar situations.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I think SHADOWRAT had very similar problems with her Doberman. If you send her a message she may be able to offer some advice - I'm sure I recall her posting about similar issues.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Brock does this a bit...if something exciting (to him) happens and then goes away or we leave it, he'll bounce at me a bit - with him it's very much, that was fun, I'm all worked up now, lets wrestle!!! lol

Impulse control things have helped and not engaging at all, folding my arms, standing stock still and not even deigning to notice him until he stops (I know that can be easier said than done, but he only halfheartedly tries it now).

I've done loads of stuff with him to be able to calm him while he's playing though, getting him really hyped up with a toy and stopping dead until he sits and waits so that now all I have to do is raise my hands out of his way and he automatically sits - even when quite aroused.

We do lots of leave and waits as well, for all sorts of things - while walking and during play as well as at home... he has to sit and wait to get out of the door, through any gates, before he gets to go and do things on walks, leaving toys even when I'm throwing them...that sort of thing. delayed fetch is a good one, leave, sit, wait throw it and then he gets to go get it.

Of course that's only any use if it is redirected over-excitement and not something else.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Sorry to bump this but I can't PM the op but wanted to offer my input....and sympathies!

Yes, I had the exact same issue with my doberman. 
He started doing it at about 4-5 months, then it randomly stopped for a few months (nothing I did, Im sure) then it returned horribly during his teenage stage (which he flung himself into with great enthusiasm at 9 months to the day, and didn't get over until 3-4 months later). 

At 10, 11, 12 months, it was obviously a bigger problem than when he'd been little. He was pretty much full size then, and to anyone walking past who didn't realise he was very much a puppy, it must have just looked like I had a horrible, mean, unruly adult dog!

Dresden was exactly the same as your dog: He would be set off after seeing another dog pass by. I could almost guarantee as soon as he'd clocked that dog, he'd turn on me and begin jumping at me, nipping, trying to rip my clothes. And, as you say, NOTHING would stop him. It really was like he'd just 'gone' for a while. 
I could have been waving a fillet steak infront of him and he wouldn't have noticed or cared. Im sure the sky could have fallen and he wouldn't have realised. It was quite scary. 
Like your dog, he wasn't be aggressive, there was no malicious intent in any of it, it was just complete and utter over stimulation and frustration. 

I tried a whole truck load of things for this issue, because it really was a big problem. I was scared to take him out on walks because I knew he'd do it at some point, and I'd feel awful and probably come home in tears.

Though I knew he did have certain triggers (seeing another dog, seeing a cat run off and wanting to chase it, me stopping to talk to a passer by and him feeling 'ignored' or impatient to get going) he would also sometimes do it at random.
Or what seemed at random to me. I'd just see him look me in the eye as he walked, and I knew right away what was coming.
Interestingly, when I spoke to my breeder about it, he said that my dog's grandmother also did the exact same thing after she had done bite-work and was over excited. 

So, heres all the things I tried. I didn't see much of a difference with any of them, and I have to be brutally honest and say in the end....maturity played a much bigger part in stopping it. He just did it less and less as he grew up, as he learned to handle his emotions and impulses a bit better. 
I will say that he still does do it SOMETIMES. But its very rarely, and always when he gets totally over excited (if he sees someone he knows approaching but he's on lead, he will get so buzzed with excitement he'll just begin bouncing and mouthing on whoever has hold of his lead) But he no longer does it on our every day walks.
Dobes are a slow maturing breed, too. They're not considered mentally mature until 3 or even older. And Dresden is from working lines, he's high energy and he is high drive. He's always been a very impulsive dog, not much patience, easily frustrated if things dont go his way. I've worked on a lot of that, but honestly......he is probably always going to be that sort of dog.
I'll add that he's also always been a mouthy dog. Still is, though only in play now. But it took him a hell of a long time to stop the nipping and puppy biting. 

But here are the things I tried. You might find success in them where I didn't, they're useful to know about.

1. First thing I tried when this behaviour first popped up was distraction. I'd try to regain his focus with a treat, with the aim to ask for a sit or down, and reward him for that, so I was giving him an alternative behaviour he could do. 
It didn't work all that well for me because of the simple fact that his attention just couldn't be gotten back once he went like that. I tried, but it was impossible with him.

2. Then I tried just ignoring him. I theoried that perhaps he was doing it to get my attention, and I was giving it by stopping and focusing on him when he kicked off. So I just....carried on walking. I pretend he wasn't there. And yes, that was really difficult with a 35kilo dog nipping and hanging onto your arm. I really had to grit my teeth and soldier on for as long as I could.
Ultimately, thats why that method failed. I just couldn't keep it up for too long, because sometimes he'd escalate his 'attack' and it was just too bloody painful if you weren't in long, thick sleeves!

3. Tying him up. Someone here suggested this to me. When he would start up, I'd tether him to the nearest secure object (a tree, a lamppost, a gate etc) and walk off a little way. Not stupidly far, just enough for him to realise I was moving away, and hope that would startle him out of it. 
Good theory, but it never worked for Dresden. He'd either carry on regardless, not even noticing or caring I'd moved off, or he'd stop eventually, but then get so over-excited when I returned that he'd start up again. There also wasn't always somewhere appropriate to tether him to.

4. Standing on the lead. Idea being he cannot jump up when you have your foot on the lead. Dresden just satisfied himself by biting my thighs instead.

5. Obviously the solid, firm 'NO!' was used a few times, but sadly, my dog is one of those who respond to loud vocalisations with zoomy, happy excitement. The more you shout, the more he loves it and thinks we're having a big rowdy game. He's never been a sensitive, intuitive dog, that one.....

6. I tried stopping the walk whenever he started up, wondering if he'd be bothered by the fact that all fun had stopped, but again, he didn't care. 

7. This is one thing that I think MAY have helped somewhat besides general maturity: I got a head collar. He'd always walked on just a half check before, but this problem was getting so bad that I tried it as a last resort. I got him a dogmatic headcollar, and a double ended lead. One end of the lead went on his headcollar, one on his harness or flat collar. So now, whenever he did 'jumpy bitey' to me, I could at least attempt to hold his head collar and have more control over his head. It didn't stop him doing it completely, but it did make it harder to do, and more of a challenge. 
And it seemed that he did lessen this behaviour with this method, as if he learned that last time he did it, it didn't have the desired affect so couldn't be bothered any more. 
I walked him with the headcollar pretty much all through his worst 3 teen months. Once the jumpy bitey was less, I returned to the flat collar, and gradually, it faded out altogether. 

Like I said, I still don't 100% trust him not to do it if he does get really over stimulated, but I no longer worry about it on a day to day basis. 

I am sure that with Dres, it was mainly over excitement and frustration. Being such an easily ramped up dog, and being so impulsive at the best of times, especially as a pup, it was just like he couldn't deal with all that emotion and had to vent it somehow. So as he aged, and his brain developed into a more adult one, he could better cope with it. 

You aren't alone though. In my time researching this, I found a lot of owners with this issue, across all sorts of breeds. It did appear to be mostly reported in dobes, GSDs, Rotties, Malinois, malamutes and Golden retrievers. 
They're all working breeds, many with similar sort of drivey, energetic, tenacious natures. Makes you wonder. 

Hope you can glean something of use from that, anyway!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Just to echo what SHADOWRAT says about the headcollar: my Lab used to be incredibly reactive and would lunge at anything he didn't like or that spooked him. Ultimately the only thing that helped was using a Dogmatic headcollar and a very robust double ended lead - these enabled me to stop the lunges *and *then train an alternative behaviour.

OP - I can't see how you can possibly relax when walking such a strong, excitable dog, if you use a headcollar you may well find that YOU start to relax more and in turn, this WILL help your dog calm down, gradually 

Re headcollars:

Never pair one of these with ANY type of flexi or extending lead.

Best thing is to pair headcollar with a really strong double ended lead - I always recommend the *Ezydog Vario 6.*

Never jerk on the lead when the dog wears a headcollar as you could potentially tug their head and neck sharply sideways and it can really damage them.


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## MarkQuinton (May 8, 2013)

Everyone, and especially shadowratt thank you! I had forgotten about this thread and I've just found it whilst searching on google and have found all these replies.

I am so so pleased i'm not alone. Shadowrat you have described Jazz exactly when talking about your Doberman's behaviour. I've tried ignoring it but I can't, I just cannot accept being bitten and mouthed, she also wraps her legs around mine to pull me into the scuffle. The main thing i'm pleased about is that you say it does improve with maturity, my wife took Jazz for a walk the other day and unfortunately a squirrel and another dog caused her to have these moments and my wife was in tears and bruised. Like I said im sure Jazz isn't vicious it's like shadowrat said, she just can't control her emotions. We also went through a few months of her being bad as a young pup and then it stopped and return at adolescence. I am really looking forward to the teenage bit finishing as she is very hard work.

I do walk her with a headcollar, but I've been using the canny collar which attaches from behind, it's good but she can still pull. I keep looking at the dogmatic but i'm worried at as it attaches underneath I will not be able to restrain her when she has her moments. Many people swear by them though so might give them a look.

I may also try the squeaky toy to try and get her to snap out of the zone.

This has been a big problem for us, so much so that we wondered if we were experienced enough to cope with her but I really want it to work out and for her to grow up and be a good loving dog.

Thank you to all that replied.

Mark


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## MarkQuinton (May 8, 2013)

Forgot to mention shadowrat....Jazz is also very mouthy albeit playfull, I was concerned I was failing on this part as I thought she shouldn't be at 14months but you have lessened my concerns saying that you dog was the same.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

My Malamute did the same thing as a young dog started at about 6months. He would start by diving about and acting like he was trying to escape the lead and run off and then when he obviously couldn't would start jumping up and nipping mainly at arms, I too had bruises through padded jackets, and if didn't have protective clothing on sometimes as he jumped up and nipped teeth caught skin and would leave scratches that were bleeding. He actually ripped a few jackets too. He would seem fine one minute and then it would start seemingly out of nowhere.

His turned out to be out of redirected fear aggression. When out he would cope with environmental factors for so long but when his stress levels got too high it wold manifest in the panic behaviour then the redirected jumping up and biting and nipping. As it started with no warning seemingly out the blue I was at a loss at first, as he never showed the classic fear response that dogs often do, or ears down or tail tucking or other things you would expect when something frightened or spooks them so even got a behaviourist in.
Once the stress levels were elevated, then he would also do it after meeting certain dogs and at other things too almost like throwing a strop when he couldn't do something he wanted. Traffic and loud noises were deffinately a factor that would start it off or contribute to the build up.

When he kicked off he would go very similar dilated pupils whale eyed, and also you could feel his heart beating fast through the harness and lead.
I found that less is more and making direct eye contact made him escalate and get worse, so did anything vocal from me. He too had a head collar when it was at its worse, and using that I found you could control his head and re-direct it away from your arms and clothing, apart from that I used to stand stock still doing nothing and turn away from him and just stand there, that tended to stop it, and we just remained where we were until I was sure it had passed. Move him on too quick before ready he would start up again. Its very important that you stay calm and don't get rattled as that makes them worse.

Apart from that we started on a desensitising programme keeping him under threshold by starting in quieter areas where he encountered a few things and no traffic and then giving him short bursts of the things that spooked him and building up from there. I also made sure he wasn't out for too long periods at the start too, and then built the time up as well as things he encountered.

He did tend to salivate too when an episode was coming I noticed with him anyway. Not excessive watery salivation but strings of thickened muscos like drool.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

I've just come back from a walk with my six month springer/poodle and have yet more holes in my coat from the exact same thing. Ours started at about 4-5 months and was definitely due to overarousal. As the previous poster said he can cope with so much in terms of environmental stimuli then it all gets too much and he can't control himself. He has lots of other issues and as we worked on these his general stress levels improved and the jumping/nipping stopped. However he's currently really stressed again and the jumping/nipping is back with a vengeance! I've tried most of the things mentioned above and none of them have worked especially well. The best thing (in my experience) is to try and keep arousal levels low by reducing the number of environmental stimuli (walk at quiter times/in quieter places) and recognise when it's likely to happen and try and calm the dog with some obedience cues or a food scatter before the behaviour begins. Because once it starts it's like he is in his own world and it's really hard to get through to him. Oh I hope it stops again soon!


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## MarkQuinton (May 8, 2013)

Thanks sled dog hotel, again this is exactly the same as our Jazz. I made the mistake of wrestling her the first time it happened and she just got worse and worse. I have noticed that it is better to stay quiet but that is so so hard to do.

I agree that the traffic can be the trigger, jazz is sometimes like this with bicycles but has improved. I also agree that woodland walks don't seem to promote the behaviour as much, bring on the summer again when it's less muddy!

It may sound silly but I've been so concerned by her actions, can you remember when yours grew out of the problem (with training of course)?

Thanks

Mark


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MarkQuinton said:


> Thanks sled dog hotel, again this is exactly the same as our Jazz. I made the mistake of wrestling her the first time it happened and she just got worse and worse. I have noticed that it is better to stay quiet but that is so so hard to do.
> 
> I agree that the traffic can be the trigger, jazz is sometimes like this with bicycles but has improved. I also agree that woodland walks don't seem to promote the behaviour as much, bring on the summer again when it's less muddy!
> 
> ...


I got him over the worst of it apart from the very odd incident at about 12/13 months, I then had him neutered around 15/16months and it all started again with a vengeance. It is thought that testosterone with males anyway can help with confidence, so that being the case it could be possible I guess that's what did it and put him back. I began from scratch and we got him almost back to normal, but even now at 7 he still remains a stressy dog, and there is even now although few and far between the odd episode, but dealing with it the way I described its very short lived and although he may start one or two jump ups and its over. He still doesn't like things like thunderstorms and fireworks, and another thing he doesn't like either is the swishy noise of tyres on wet roads, that often brings on an episode.

As a pup and young dog though he was frightened of everything even plastic bags blowing in the wind and wind in the trees on a windy day even things like that spooked him. Triggers are few and far between now but it still happens very occasionally.

As his was all re-directed fear aggression he wouldn't take treats or food an anxious or fearful dog often wont at all so distraction with food on him anyway just wouldn't work. Occasionally I could get him to sit, but again because of the flight/fight reflex that had limited affect too.

Dogs can also have fear periods that can occur anytime between 6 and 14months and I think this is what happened too. Bad experiences during this time can also have a lasting effect with some dogs. In fact when he was at his worse there would be strategic points on a walk where he would always kick off in the same places or similar situations.

I also didn't get him until 11 weeks old he was unvaccinated too, and I found out after he was kennel raised, he also come from a secluded location and although as soon as I got him carried him about and took him for car trips until his vaccinations were done he couldn't go out until about 14/15 weeks old, so I really think because of this it didn't help the situation, and was caused by not enough early habituation and socialisation, plus he was also possible he wasn't the most confident of pups naturally. In all honesty alarm bells did ring when I got him and I ignored my instincts, so I have only myself to blame and should have known better I also found other things out after that explained a lot.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Hi my dog sometimes does this at random he'll turn on the lead and come at you was worse when he was younger but I have a great trainer who I've managed too work him through the worst of it I can mirror everyone else's suggestions of a headcollar and stopping still and just let it pass I still don't know what his trigger is.I'll just add that you need too see someone who knows how to deal with this sort of thing as it's way to dodgy too deal with on your own good luck chap.


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## MarkQuinton (May 8, 2013)

Thanks all.

Jazz had another episode tonight. We were walking on one side of the road and there was a dog on the other side. She sat down and watched the dog until she couldn't see it anymore, her heart was beating and obviously wanted to go and say hello. I just stood there for a bit hoping she would relax and we could move but as soon as I did she launched at me, started growling and trying to bite my clothes/arms. I managed to hold her headcollar close to her head to restain her and wait for a while and then move on. 

This is such a huge shame and impacts on other aspects of mine and her life. For instance I'd like to start running her next to my bike with an attachment and she would benefit from the exercise but it's far too much excitement and she jumps up at me whilst i'm pedalling and gets all worked up, the same if I try running. Also simple things like me stroking her too much when walking will sometimes get her hyper. I've also thought about getting a long line and letting her explore but I think she will get over excited and charge at me. The same thing goes for zoomies, I don't mind her having zoomies as all sled dogs do but she ruins it by barking and nipping at me because she is over excited. 

I really hope this passes in time as it's making our time together less enjoyable. Don't get me wrong though it was actually harder to stop her when she was younger so she must of improved a little.

Thanks

Mark


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Hopefully it's just something they mature out of I know it's upsetting but I'm sure there's no malice behind it.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Mark? May I be perfectly honest and will you read the following not as a mean spirited reproach but a well intended comment from a fellow dog owner who understands how soul destroying such walks can be?

THIS is how dogs end up in rescue. Or why they are put to sleep.

Not because the owner doesn't love them anymore, but because they come to a point where they just can't handle the daily walking fiasco anymore. And because they just can't hack being constantly mauled and dragged around and generally have no or little control over the dog. 

And it isn't EVER the dog's fault.

It wasn't their job to self-train themselves and be manageable BEFORE they were (almost) fully grown. This is on you that it came to this point, not Jazz. She is a dog and does what she feels like and what she can get away with. Which, by the sound of it, is a lot. You aren't doing HER a favour by letting her continue to behave like an unruly tyrant, never mind yourself. Owning dogs is meant to be fun and rewarding, not a headache interspersed with purple bruises.

It isn't normal to be mauled and maniacally jumped all over by ones own dog just because they feel like it. NOT when they are more than a year old, different matter for a pup. Whether she sees another dog or the Messiah himself is neither here nor there. But you left it so late to pull rank that you stand a real risk to be bitten, and not playfully, if you do. And I am wondering whether the reason that you haven't done so is exactly because you are afraid that she would? And mean it.

I have no doubt that Jazz loves you. But she doesn't respect you one iota or she wouldn't behave like this. NB by "respect you" I don't mean she should FEAR you or be in any way intimidated by you, but she got to FINALLY understand that the rules of conduct are set by you, not her. Which she hasn't. But you did leave it late....

But that isn't something that can be tackled via an internet pet forum or via reading a few select books. You really need an experienced, competent trainer before this escalates even further...or even just stays as is. IMO, you and Jazz would probably be best served by a training holiday - a sort of doggy boot camp for you and her - rather than by a lone weekly training session which leaves you to struggle on alone with her for most of the week.

There are several residential training courses for dogs in the UK - and I don't mean the ones where the dog is sent away! - which you might want to explore. Years ago, I've heard quite a few people rave about the residential training courses run by Roger Mugford...but I have no idea whether they still run them. But I do know there are courses like that out there being offered. Do look into this option.

For your and her sake - please act and seek help quickly. This sure sounds as if this situation won't have a happy ending unless you adress this immediately. I would not rely on the hope she'll simply outgrow it as this hasn't worked thus far. If she was mine, I'd stick a soft muzzle on her for now when walking, as I wouldn't relish being perpetually harassed by my dog's teeth. If she was a Chihuhuha, mauling would be annoying and undesirable - but a dog the size and strength of a nearly grown Malamute....Yowsa. And ouch.

Wishing you and your girl all the best and great success


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

To be honest I'm not sure it's an issue of respect or "letting" the dog get away with it. My dog (6 months) does what sounds like the same thing as yours. My pup is a highly strung little guy with a several issues. We are working hard with a excellent behavioural team and their input has been invaluable.

In the case of my dog these outbursts are when he simply can't cope anymore. He can deal with a certain amount of environmental stimuli (cars, other dogs, people, wind, birds, exciting games of fetch etc) but when his threshold for what he can cope with is exceeded he just can't control himself anymore and one of these outbursts happen. Once they happen it's like he's in his own world and it's hard to get him under control. It's not that he's doing it because he wants to, or we've let him get away with it - he's lost control. When he's stressed for any reason he reaches the threshold much quicker. 

That's not to say that as owners there isn't anything we can do. I often kick myself for not having recognised the triggers likely to cause an episode. Knowing how much he is likely to be able to cope with is key, and trying not to push him beyond his threshold. Also working on getting more confident with the situations that get him worked up so that he can do more before reaching this threshold is important. Hopefully as he matures, and gets more desensitized to the things that get him overaroused this behaviour will phase out.

I'm not an expert on the matter but I don't think soft muzzles are advised for exercise as they interfere with the dogs ability to pant. Maybe one of the Baskerville type muzzles which allow panting and drinking might help give you a respite from the biting during walks, but if you go down this route I would make sure you introduce it gradually with lots of positive reinforcement. If the dog is stressed by the muzzle before you even start the walk it might be counterproductive. 

I would second the advice to see a behaviouralist. It's allowed us to understand the issues going on with our dog, and to have a plan to deal with it. We ARE making progress and I'm sure you can too. I beat myself up for a long time for 'breaking' my dog - there's no bad dogs only bad owners right? But I've come to realise that not all dogs are created equal and some have more ability to cope with a situation than others. My dog isn't a "bad" dog (in fact he's awesome in many ways) but he isn't easy either - our obedience class trainer and the rehab trainers have all commented on the fact he is something of a challenge. If we were dog behaviour experts we might have recognised warning signs before things went pear shaped at 4 months, but we aren't we are just average people trying very hard to do our best as I'm sure you are. You have my sympathies - it is hard enough dealing with these outburst from a 10kg puppy - I imagine your dog is much bigger. Good luck, and take heart - it can improve.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

By the way our pet insurance covers behaviouralist input - we've had a lot of extremely useful expert input just for a single payment of the excess of £75. Might be worth looking at your policy..........


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Agree absolutely with Sarah it's not as clear cut as him not respecting you I found with mine that it's because he can't cope with something and just gets so worked up that he just zonks out its a job for a pro and quite cruel for people to judge you if they do as there are definitely hard dogs out there.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MarkQuinton said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> Jazz had another episode tonight. We were walking on one side of the road and there was a dog on the other side. She sat down and watched the dog until she couldn't see it anymore, her heart was beating and obviously wanted to go and say hello. I just stood there for a bit hoping she would relax and we could move but as soon as I did she launched at me, started growling and trying to bite my clothes/arms. I managed to hold her headcollar close to her head to restain her and wait for a while and then move on.
> 
> ...


My Malamute/Sibe mix had episodes of it too when she was younger would get hyped but thankfully she didn't do the biting and jumping, hers did pass and although she still gets excited here and there on walks, I can actually get her to focus and sit and stay put until the other dogs passed.
My Malamutes was fear based so treats and getting him to focus and follow commands didn't really work when he was at his worse, but have you ever tried it with her, to see if she will focus on you for a treat?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

My Mal is nearly six, 60kgs and can STILL be a handful for me when he wants. I agree with hopeattheendofthetunnel that its ultimately our fault for letting them get away with it, plus a little fear on our part too. Just today Flynn didn't want to leave my daughter and Marty (his dad) on our walk, I wanted some time with just him as my daughter did with Marts. Flynn showed off like a spoiled brat, stood his ground and wouldn't budge and when told to come on just did a 'bucking broncho' on the spot. As usual I changed tack and Carly came back and walked with us, spoiled boy was then happy. 
I know its totally wrong to let him get his own way and have had behaviourists tell me that too. I am definitely scared that he'll take off and take me with him but I know what I do ads to his strength. Flynns not aggressive or a biter, never has been and on the whole he does as he's told but he can be such a sh!t at times and I can be such a coward that I do us both no favours at all. 

Got told off by all my four kids and that no way should he be allowed to get away with such disrespectful behaviour towards me. He doesn't do it often but the time has come for me to take the bull by the horns and stop babying him, its so hard when he's usually so good but its something I have got to do. I know how annoying and downright scary it can be when you're challenged by a large dog but as my kids rightly said 'you'd never have allowed your kids to act like that, so why a bloody dog?' Well, I just don't ever get annoyed with Flynn, take it all with a pinch of salt but its a dangerous way of treating a powerful animal so I'm going to have to change big time - it's not going to be easy though but for both our sakes it time I stepped up to the mark with this boy.

I feel for the op, I really do - walks can be soul destroying at times, no pleasure at all.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Having used both, I would urge you to immediately ditch the Canny Collar and get a Dogmatic. The Canny Collar is NO good for strong dogs because it attaches at the back so you may as well just be using a normal collar and lead.

Get a webbing/padded Dogmatic, this will give you far more control. Pair it with a double ended lead; you could use both a harness and a headcollar for the time being, if it's a harness with a front/chest attachment ring - combined this headcollar and harness would give you much more control. Halti does a harness like this.

Also PLEASE do not send your dog away for training - you would have no control over what was happening and how your dog was treated. If it's any consolation, my dog used to be so reactive that we literally could not walk down our own street without continual lunging, to the point where groups of neighbours would gather to watch 

You can get through this, it requires consistent training and crucially the right tools so that you can prevent your dog from leaping up and nipping etc.

If you email the team at Dogmatic, they will advise you re sizing, as this is vital with the Dogmatic.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Plus with a dogmatic you can control those teeth if needs be.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I just want to back up what OBAYL said about lead reactivity. Her advice and experiences with her dog Dexter inspired me to seek professional help with my dog Molly who was - in our professional behaviourist's words '_the worst case of lead reactivity_' she had experienced.

Please get professional help. What may work for my dog (BAT work) may not work for you but please understand that you also need the training too. Sending your dog away for a bootcamp is pointless, worse one with both of you that does not deal with lead reactivity. What I realised very early on is that not all trainers are equipped to deal with this problem and you should seek out those that do.

We did find that weekly lessons with a behaviourist worked for us and we can now walk our dog down the street fine, knowing a range of techniques that embrace positive training. That is the key - knowing what to do and you cannot get that from a two hour handover at the end of your dog going away to a bootcamp alone. This is a problem you both have to tackle together, that much I understand.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

zedder said:


> Plus with a dogmatic you can control those teeth if needs be.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

You really need professional help by someone qualified to deal with the problems you are having, not seeking advice from pet owners IMHO.

There is no excuse for this sort of behaviour and it is potentially dangerous.

As for equipment, there is no ONE piece of equipment that shoudl or should not be used with your dog, all has to be selected on an individual basis and suitable for both dog and handler as well as the environment.

Please seek help from a reputable behaviourist who belongs to the APBC, CAPBT or UKRCB.

Good luck.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


>


 Why Choose the Dogmatic?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

zedder said:


> Why Choose the Dogmatic?


lol lol I'd missed that even though I've visited the site a few times


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## MarkQuinton (May 8, 2013)

A big thank you to everyone that replied. Yes I think you are right, I do need to seek the help of a behaviourist and I will look into our insurance covering the majority of the cost by paying the excess.

I will also look to get a dogmatic. A couple of questions though, how does this close their mouth when required? Just by lifting up I guess? Also how does a double ended lead give you more control, I can understand that it does when walking as you have two points of attachment and can almost steer and brake but should the dog jump up I have it in my mind that I will have less control if the lead attaches to the underside of her mouth? Either way so many people recommend them that I will have to give it a try.

As jazz is in the middle of adolescence I appreciate that her actions are completely unacceptable in any case but I just wonder how to work out whether this is a passing phase or a deep in built problem. I guess that's where the behaviourist comes in. I must admit she has been a very hard girl and sometimes it's hard to like her but I do love her and know that she doesn't intend or even know she is hurting. 

I appreciate what people mean by the fact that I have been at fault for allowing this to happen but other than seeking help how could I have stopped it?? I have tried every method going and have been determined to solve the problem with no real luck. How do you stop a 40kg dog jumping at you? If they want to, they will.

I've gained lots of good advice from this post and I thank you all. Fingers crossed we get somewhere as i'd love to enjoy our time together. 

Regards

Mark


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Just wanted to clarify and emphasize a point many forum members commented on and reacted to:

I believe that a residential training course for dog and owner can be a Godsend to address and rectify problem behaviour.

BUT...

...as expressly stated in my earlier post to Mark - the idea is NOT to send the dog away for training.

Not merely because it leaves the owner clueless as to the training methods and techniques used - which would be worrying enough - but because the owner needs the training far more than the dog. The whole point of a residential training course is that the OWNER learns how to effectively communicate with their dog. There is little to be gained if the dog perfectly responds to some trainer living elsewhere, but not to the person s/he is actually living with.

I firmly believe, and others may disagree, that the overwhelming majority of so called "problem behaviours" -as the one Mark reported with Jazz - are due to communication failure between owner and dog.

There is nothing "wrong" with the dog.

There is nothing "wrong" with the owner.

But there IS a communication issue. A sort of " software incompatibility"

To use an analogy: a few months ago I bought a new wireless router. I carefully followed the installation blurb on the manual and what I should have ended up with was a perfectly functioning router. Except...I didn't. The vexed thing wouldn't not communicate with the printer, never mind what I did. I called the router helpline - no joy. I wrestled with this wretched thing for days, called the computer helpline and the router helpline AND the printer helpline over and over - it still wouldn't talk to the printer. And nobody seemingly knew why.

I knew there was nothing wrong with the computer. Nor the printer. And the router SHOULD have worked with both, I had installed routers and printers before, so why weren't they communicating with each other?

At my wit's end, I called in a pro. Who tried this n' that and eventually furiously typed in some incomprehensible stuff into the computer after which they all communicated flawlessly with one another.

My failure to accomplish this myself doesn't make me stupid nor the equipment rubbish. It just means I am not an expert in solving complex software incompatibility issues. I didn't know the specific keys to hit so that the sent message was understood.

It's no different with owner and dog communication failure. We, as owners, can send messages all day long. Every day. But if the dog can't "receive" and interpret them correctly, it leaves both parties stuck and going nowhere.

When we enlist a competent professional, they can give us the required input codes to help our dogs to receive. But even for a pro this often involves trial and error. Which is WHY an intensive, residential course can be so helpful for the owner. Instead of working for weeks or months with a technique which just doesn't suit THAT particular dog and will yield little or no improvement, trainer and owner can quickly change tack to find one which the dog does gleefully responds to.

Which can save months, if not years, of frustration.

Roger Mugford's Behavioural Centre used to offer these residential courses. For dog AND owner. Not sure whether they still do, but if the OP wants to look into it, their website is:
Dog Training | Company of Animals

There is one other I read of which was:

Going on a Training Holiday with Your Dog


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Malmum said:


> Just today Flynn didn't want to leave my daughter and Marty (his dad) on our walk, I wanted some time with just him as my daughter did with Marts. Flynn showed off like a spoiled brat, stood his ground and wouldn't budge and when told to come on just did a 'bucking broncho' on the spot. As usual I changed tack and Carly came back and walked with us, spoiled boy was then happy.
> 
> I know its totally wrong to let him get his own way and have had behaviourists tell me that too. I am definitely scared that he'll take off and take me with him but I know what I do ads to his strength. Flynns not aggressive or a biter, never has been and on the whole he does as he's told but he can be such a sh!t at times and I can be such a coward that I do us both no favours at all.


Malmum, I could be totally off base here.....but in the example above with your boy doing the spectacular bocking bronco act, I didn't interpret it as "spoilt" or "deliquent" behaviour.

To me, it seemed like he was just desperately trying to keep all "his people" together, rather than them staying off in all directions. Which could be classified as "feeling responsible" behaviour. Just as a bitch with pups couldn't be called deliquent when she doesn't want to leave one , or all, of her offspring behind because she feels responsible for their safety & wellbeing - perhaps Flynn can't bear the thought of leaving one of his people behind because he wants to look after ALL of them and feels responsible for their wellbeing.

Which is, actually, a pretty nice character trait.  Even though it makes it difficult, if not impossible, to split up his people during a walk. If his "responsability" doesn't extend to biting other people or dogs to keep them away from his humans, I'd be inclined to honour his need to keep his group safely together.

But I don't know your boy, you do.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The only problem with Flynn is me, I've been told that by three different behaviourists and I know they are right. I've been told to walk him on my terms, let him stop for sniffs when I want but I thought sniffing was all part of him enjoying his walks. It isn't his fault and I have to make myself change because ultimately he's a very good Mal. 
In the past if he's not wanted to walk where I want I've changed direction, so its no wonder he still does it occasionally. The past few months have been perfect walking wise but just occasionally he'll throw a strop for one reason or another. We walked alone today, I took treats and did some training at the field, he was putty in my hands. I don't want these confrontations with him, I don't want to bribe them out of him either. I know you are so right in that its us to blame and not the dog, Flynn senses any anxieties in me immediately - even my tone of voice, the behaviorist last year picked up on it immediately by Flynns body language and I had no idea. 
New year, heading for his sixth, behaviourists have told me I need to use a 'hands off' approach. Gonna be hard but I'm trying for both our sakes. 

ETA - I sometimes wish I didn't love him so much, I'm sure that's where my problem really lies.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

RE DOGMATIC HEADCOLLAR:

This gives you control because where the dog's head goes, the body must follow...

The dog cannot lunge if you are holding the lead 'short' and close to the dog himself, if that makes sense?

A double ended lead is good because you are controlling the dog at two points: the head, and the neck. If you hold *both* strands of the lead firmly and close to the dog, he cannot lunge. Of course you only do this when you sense he's' about to try and lunge or when you see a trigger that you know 100% will cause your dog to kick off.

*DO be really careful NEVER to jerk the lead when using a headcollar. It can damage the dog's neck.

Never ever use a headcollar and a flexi/extending lead at the same time.
*

You are not at fault at all - sometimes we end up with dogs that behave in ways we need to manage or remedy. The key thing now is that you are seeking advice and that is GREAT.


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

Yep mirroring what obayl says don't blame yourself sometimes you do get hard dogs I know as mine is but you can sort it everything can be fixed and at the end.of the day think about where you want your dog and yourself to be and you'll get there.


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