# Cleft Lip, Honesty needed in Breeders



## Eddie01 (May 1, 2012)

I have just had a litter of pups to one of my girls, she is a maiden mother. All was going well until the third pup came and had a hair lip, then the fourth one too. We were defistated. After a few calls amongst breeders I found out that 10 years ago someone commented that the great, great grandsire from both the dame and sire in this litter came from a litter that had cleft lip/palate. One of the males was exported to be used for breeding. This breeder knew all her litter should have been sold on as pet only and if this had been the case my little girl (who is a wonderful mum) would have all five puppies instead of 3 little troopers and 2 dead puppies she is grieving. She is not ready to let them go. The pups were born 14 hours ago. Breeders must be honest if you produce a pup with fault, don't hide it and hope it doesn't come back to bite you, be open sell your pups as pet only where they have to be desexed. Shame on you, dishonest breeders.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Also up to the buyer to health check as far back as humanly possible.


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## HoneyFern (Aug 27, 2009)

How bad was the hair lip? Could they still not have been sold as pets seeing as the rest of the litter will be? Did they die or where they killed? I know nothing about hair lips in dogs but I know a two year old cat that has and has never had any problems with it.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Eddie01 said:


> I have just had a litter of pups to one of my girls, she is a maiden mother. All was going well until the third pup came and had a hair lip, then the fourth one too. We were defistated. After a few calls amongst breeders I found out that 10 years ago someone commented that the great, great grandsire from both the dame and sire in this litter came from a litter that had cleft lip/palate. One of the males was exported to be used for breeding. This breeder knew all her litter should have been sold on as pet only and if this had been the case my little girl (who is a wonderful mum) would have all five puppies instead of 3 little troopers and 2 dead puppies she is grieving. She is not ready to let them go. The pups were born 14 hours ago. Breeders must be honest if you produce a pup with fault, don't hide it and hope it doesn't come back to bite you, be open sell your pups as pet only where they have to be desexed. Shame on you, dishonest breeders.


I do agree to a certain extent, but as you were the one that bred your girl the responsibility to find out about her background and lines is down to YOU. If you'd done that BEFORE breeding you would have found out what you now know.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Eddie01 said:


> I have just had a litter of pups to one of my girls, she is a maiden mother. All was going well until the third pup came and had a hair lip, then the fourth one too. We were defistated. After a few calls amongst breeders I found out that 10 years ago someone commented that the great, great grandsire from both the dame and sire in this litter came from a litter that had cleft lip/palate. One of the males was exported to be used for breeding. This breeder knew all her litter should have been sold on as pet only and if this had been the case my little girl (who is a wonderful mum) would have all five puppies instead of 3 little troopers and 2 dead puppies she is grieving. She is not ready to let them go. The pups were born 14 hours ago. Breeders must be honest if you produce a pup with fault, don't hide it and hope it doesn't come back to bite you, be open sell your pups as pet only where they have to be desexed. Shame on you, dishonest breeders.


Whilst I do agree, you really should have made those calls before breeding her, not once the damage is done. It is tragic and could have been avoided.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Also up to the buyer to health check as far back as humanly possible.


How would a buyer find out though? Yes could look up test results but other than relying on breeders honesty a buyer would not be able to find out how many litters included pups with say cleft lip or heart defect etc


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> How would a buyer find out though? Yes could look up test results but other than relying on breeders honesty a buyer would not be able to find out how many litters included pups with say cleft lip or heart defect etc


They could if they wanted to, as long as they were buying from registered, health check parent etc who had histories also registered. Also this person found out after they bred so they could have found out before.

If I was buying a pup i would never rely totally on what some breeder was telling me, and would research myself!


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

There was a toller litter born last year with two puppies with a hare lip, they are both healthy with no problems. The vet said it could of been caused because of stress on the bitch at that time of development.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Honest? Only the very best will risk the loss of revenue.

That comment will proberbly get me shot but think about it if all breeders were truely honest about the faults there would be a hell of a lot less breeding dogs and a lot less money in it.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

dorrit said:


> Honest? Only the very best will risk the loss of revenue.
> 
> That comment will proberbly get me shot but think about it if all breeders were truely honest about the faults there would be a hell of a lot less breeding dogs and a lot less money in it.


If that were true, (and I sincerely wish it was) then there would be a waiting list for ALL dogs and owning any dog would be a privilege and not, as lots of people think "their God given right" ....but as long as £££s are involved, there'll be lots of puppies that grow up, are sold to people who couldn't give a hoot after the pup's 6 months, so will end up in rescue centres, being put to sleep, but not going back to the dodgey breeder.


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I have bred one puppy with harelip/cleft palate, pup was PTS. Its not a secret, its marked on our Genetic Analysis Pedigree.

Before pointing the finger directly at the breeder, think on this -

1. Can be caused by as Vitamin A imbalance, too much or too little

2. Steriods taken or produced by the bitch in the first 3 weeks of gestation.

3. Exposure of the bitch to eviromental toxins (weedkillers, fertilisers etc)

4. The bitch can have a sudden fright during gestation, which can produce problems in pups.

The main advice is to avoid toxins and traumas for your bitch, especially in the first 3 weeks of gestation.

Midline closure defects CAN be genetic, but unless you can prove this 100%, you have to take into account the above listed things too.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ceearott said:


> I have bred one puppy with harelip/cleft palate, pup was PTS. Its not a secret, its marked on our Genetic Analysis Pedigree.
> 
> Before pointing the finger directly at the breeder, think on this -
> 
> ...


Ceearcott - How very nice to see you back


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> They could if they wanted to, as long as they were buying from registered, health check parent etc who had histories also registered. Also this person found out after they bred so they could have found out before.
> 
> If I was buying a pup i would never rely totally on what some breeder was telling me, and would research myself!


There would be no public information on something like this. This is where there is a necessary (IMO) advantage of being involved in an activity like showing or working. I have nothing against people breeding their pets if they do health tests, BUT, and it's a big but, they do not have access to other information about dogs in the same way those involved in showing/working/other canine discipline do, and not just about health, but temperament, ability etc.

The concern is that other breeders had the information that was sought AFTER the event - this research should have been done BEFORE breeding.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Surely in some instances its just one of things isn't it, after all people can get the same


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Surely in some instances its just one of things isn't it, after all people can get the same


It can be as Cearott has said. My concern is that the information was out there had the OP done their research. That said, I do have sympathies because there are breeders who keep it to themselves as the OP has found out. There are those who turn a blind eye/make excuses for many such things - umbilical hernias being another - because there is a grey area. This really is an example about how much research should be done before breeding, that health tests in themselves are not enough. The dog world is a very small one so people do tend to hear things that are not readily available to pet breeders without really thorough research and actually getting mentors in the breed.
PS - I have no idea whether the OP is a pet breeder or not, so this is not aimed at them - more general observation.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> There would be no public information on something like this. This is where there is a necessary (IMO) advantage of being involved in an activity like showing or working. I have nothing against people breeding their pets if they do health tests, BUT, and it's a big but, they do not have access to other information about dogs in the same way those involved in showing/working/other canine discipline do, and not just about health, but temperament, ability etc.
> 
> The concern is that other breeders had the information that was sought AFTER the event - this research should have been done BEFORE breeding.


I assumed this was not a pet breeder and as such would have more info available like C says on a Genetic register of some description- as she could trace the defect after mating.

If this sort of thing can just occur at any time though then even the most rigorous checks could have been pointless in determining whether or not the pups would be bred with the defect.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> I assumed this was not a pet breeder and as such would have more info available like C says on a Genetic register of some description- as she could trace the defect after mating.


It largely depends on the breed whether there is such information on a register (and is voluntary).

If this sort of thing can just occur at any time though then even the most rigorous checks could have been pointless in determining whether or not the pups would be bred with the defect.[/QUOTE]

No not pointless, just not black and white. For some health problems there are DNA tests available which gives a black and white results. Other health tests, while not black and white, are utilised because they decrease risks. Some health problems, like the one mentioned in this thread, are generally thought to be genetic (because they appear in certain lines and matings of such dogs produce a much large number of affected puppies than one would expect from it being just one of those things), but can be caused by other environmental factors, particularly during the bitches pregnancy.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I do agree that breeders should be more honest but if they are in it for the money they just won't care.Going back a few years,i found a dog who was a lovely example of my breed and decided i wanted to use him with my bitch.I used him and puppies were beautiful but two of the boys had an undecended testicle at final vet check.Now i know that sometimes they can pop down a little later but i felt it only fair to warn my prospective buyers of this.They weren't particulary bothered because they intended to neuter the dog anyway but my feeling was if you want to neuter your dog that is up to you but the fact is you will have to neuter and the choice has been taken away from you.I felt it only fair to reduce the price of the pup by the price of the operation,which everyone was happy with all round and i still had my integrity.I could never feel happy in myself if i ripped someone off.The stud dog had two perfectly descended testicles,so i can only assume that someone used a one testicled dog(can't remember the proper name)somewhere back down the line.The testicles never did come down and i never used that dog again either.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Bjt said:


> I do agree that breeders should be more honest but if they are in it for the money they just won't care.Going back a few years,i found a dog who was a lovely example of my breed and decided i wanted to use him with my bitch.I used him and puppies were beautiful but two of the boys had an undecended testicle at final vet check.Now i know that sometimes they can pop down a little later but i felt it only fair to warn my prospective buyers of this.They weren't particulary bothered because they intended to neuter the dog anyway but my feeling was if you want to neuter your dog that is up to you but the fact is you will have to neuter and the choice has been taken away from you.I felt it only fair to reduce the price of the pup by the price of the operation,which everyone was happy with all round and i still had my integrity.I could never feel happy in myself if i ripped someone off.The stud dog had two perfectly descended testicles,so i can only assume that someone used a one testicled dog(can't remember the proper name)somewhere back down the line.The testicles never did come down and i never used that dog again either.


One of the first things Ferdie's breeder told us when we enquired about him was that he could not be used at stud because he had suffered a hernia, which had been repaired.

That might have made a difference in their price, I don't know, as I just wanted a nice natured big hairy dog. Not interested in breeding. I did not ask for a discount, but they gave me one anyway.

But unethical breeders are not going to care so long as they get their money.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> . . .It largely depends on the breed whether there is such information on a register (and is voluntary). . .


I don't know of a single breed where this information is available on a register (cleft palate or umbilical hernia or water puppies or many others like this).

I'd like to point out that this is where the close proximities in the UK help with the ability of breeders belonging in clubs to know some of what is in the background of pedigrees.

Where I live in North America there is no such ability. Breeders HAVE to rely on honesty as most will not get a chance to meet the dogs behind in their pedigrees due to distances. Even if they do the times met are rare and not enough to glean info like this. We NEED more information recorded honestly on genetic or health pedigrees, but so far I am not seeing a move to go that way in ANY of the toy breeds or many of the small breeds that I follow.

CC


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Lexiedhb said:


> They could if they wanted to, as long as they were buying from registered, health check parent etc who had histories also registered. Also this person found out after they bred so they could have found out before.
> 
> If I was buying a pup i would never rely totally on what some breeder was telling me, and would research myself!


I dont see how you could find this out by research. If the puppies had been pts and never registered how would there be any way of knowing.



Tollisty said:


> There was a toller litter born last year with two puppies with a hare lip, they are both healthy with no problems. The vet said it could of been caused because of stress on the bitch at that time of development.


Hare lips are not the same as cleft palates though. A pup with a cleft palate will die as it cannot feed. We had a calf with a cleft palate, very sad as it managed to swallow milk for a week or two and we did not realise anything was wrong. However it had to be put to sleep at a few weeks old as the split grew with the calf.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Hare lips are not the same as cleft palates though. A pup with a cleft palate will die as it cannot feed. We had a calf with a cleft palate, very sad as it managed to swallow milk for a week or two and we did not realise anything was wrong. However it had to be put to sleep at a few weeks old as the split grew with the calf.


Is a cleft palate always untreatable in animals Blitz? Only ask because mum was a nurse in the 1950's and told me she always had the task of dealing with the cleft palate babies, think they pack it with something. I know she said it was not a nice thing to do


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

Is it normal to put to sleep pups with a cleft palate then?? I thougth hare lips and cleft palates were counted as the same condition, and it was usually just cosmetic?? Does it always cause problems with feeding, and at what age are puppies pts?

(I don't know anything about breeding, but my brother was close to buying a toller pup with a hare lip last year so we all tried to research the condition and the vet's opinion seemed to be that there was no real health risk. Unfortunately there were possible issues with insurance though and it was too much of a risk.)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

springfieldbean said:


> Is it normal to put to sleep pups with a cleft palate then?? I thougth hare lips and cleft palates were counted as the same condition, and it was usually just cosmetic?? Does it always cause problems with feeding, and at what age are puppies pts?
> 
> (I don't know anything about breeding, but my brother was close to buying a toller pup with a hare lip last year so we all tried to research the condition and the vet's opinion seemed to be that there was no real health risk. Unfortunately there were possible issues with insurance though and it was too much of a risk.)


They are not the same condition, though often come together. A hare lip is a sort of deformity of the lip, whereas a cleft palate is a separation of the roof of the mouth (I think, don't quite me on that). Therefore feeding is almost impossible. Both can be successfully operated on in humans and this has been done for years, but I don't know about dogs.


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## Eddie01 (May 1, 2012)

HoneyFern said:


> How bad was the hair lip? Could they still not have been sold as pets seeing as the rest of the litter will be? Did they die or where they killed? I know nothing about hair lips in dogs but I know a two year old cat that has and has never had any problems with it.


Not possible as both pups were very weak, the first puppy died a couple of hours after birth and the second 10 hours after.


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## Eddie01 (May 1, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> They are not the same condition, though often come together. A hare lip is a sort of deformity of the lip, whereas a cleft palate is a separation of the roof of the mouth (I think, don't quite me on that). Therefore feeding is almost impossible. Both can be successfully operated on in humans and this has been done for years, but I don't know about dogs.


Yes you are correct, they are very similar and due to the fact that very few survive this is eveident in the low number of adult dogs with the condition. 99% of pups born die within a few hours. For those pups that do survive to be old enough to have surgery (at a cost of $1500 each procedure) they will experience a life time of ongoing heath issues from nasel infections to nuemonia (lung fever) On average depending on the severity of the deformity most dogs require 2 to 3 procedures. Apart from all that you would find it hard to find a person/family to adopt said pet with the unknown medical issues it will face in the future.


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## Eddie01 (May 1, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> Is a cleft palate always untreatable in animals Blitz? Only ask because mum was a nurse in the 1950's and told me she always had the task of dealing with the cleft palate babies, think they pack it with something. I know she said it was not a nice thing to do


99% of pups died within hours or days of birth. Yes there are a list of severe medical complications associated with the condition if the pup does manage to survive.


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## Eddie01 (May 1, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> I do agree to a certain extent, but as you were the one that bred your girl the responsibility to find out about her background and lines is down to YOU. If you'd done that BEFORE breeding you would have found out what you now know.


If you knew anything about breeding you would know that it is nearly impossible to know about every single puppy that has come before your own in your line and then again in the line of the stud. There are thousands of dogs to go back on....

How is works is that a breeder will have a dog in mind and complete a pedigree make up with gives you all the information going back 4 generations. Then after that it is personal knowledge of the line the bitch and stud came from and whether any known faults had ever been evident in the lines.

In my case I knew all the breeders and in my line there have never been any faults also in the studs line either. The dog I was referring to is simply just here say of talk from 10 years ago in another country. As I said in my original statement that this dog which is now 10 years old was exported from another country. So again our knowledge does go back 20 years of lines with no faults.

Yes the Kennel Club register it has all pedigree information of all surviving dogs but not pups that don't survive, so unless a breeder admits a fault and comes out with the information then the information remains unknown.


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## Eddie01 (May 1, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> They could if they wanted to, as long as they were buying from registered, health check parent etc who had histories also registered. Also this person found out after they bred so they could have found out before.
> 
> If I was buying a pup i would never rely totally on what some breeder was telling me, and would research myself!


Good luck with that cause all you will get on the register is the names of the pedigree going back 4 generations. You would need to research the prefix (kennel name) and interview each breeder from each kennel...


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## Eddie01 (May 1, 2012)

A pedigree make up was done from the register and personal knowledge of both lines were known going back twenty years with no faults. The talk is only here say coming from another country going back 10 years. Again like you said having a small breed emotional bitch it could have been stress, who knows we will never know. However I am putting a stop to it and selling the other very perfect pups as pet only and unfortunately am letting down 3 other breeders who wanted a pup for breeding.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

I realise you are upset, but if you were able to find out about the history AFTER the pups were born, why could you not before??? Just asking though. Never bred, never will.


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## Susan scott (Jun 14, 2019)

Eddie01 said:


> I have just had a litter of pups to one of my girls, she is a maiden mother. All was going well until the third pup came and had a hair lip, then the fourth one too. We were defistated. After a few calls amongst breeders I found out that 10 years ago someone commented that the great, great grandsire from both the dame and sire in this litter came from a litter that had cleft lip/palate. One of the males was exported to be used for breeding. This breeder knew all her litter should have been sold on as pet only and if this had been the case my little girl (who is a wonderful mum) would have all five puppies instead of 3 little troopers and 2 dead puppies she is grieving. She is not ready to let them go. The pups were born 14 hours ago. Breeders must be honest if you produce a pup with fault, don't hide it and hope it doesn't come back to bite you, be open sell your pups as pet only where they have to be desexed. Shame on you, dishonest breeders.


My little girl chihuahua has just had a litter of 3 and one little boy has a hair lip the vets wanted to put him down but I wanted to give him a chance I've been a small time breeder for 30 years and this is the first time I've come across this problem, he is so far doing great we took him to the vets for a reassuring look over and thank fully his pallets is not affected but as he grows will have to keep an eye out for food inhalation .... I've got someone who will love him as much as I do willing to take him on and not worried about how he looks cosmetically she came. to the vets with me so she knows exactly what she will be taking on his welfare and happiness is the most important thing to me I could never be anything other than honest with anyone who homes one of my babies and I won't be breeding from the mother again either, there are honest breeders out there you just have to do your research and ask all the right questions and see mother with pups. I hope your little girl soon recovers from her loss.


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