# Brexit and the cost of food



## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Did anyone else just watch Panorama about Brexit and how it may affect the price of food?


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

No. Who cares.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

I would imagine somebody must have.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

KatieandOliver said:


> No. Who cares.


You don't care if food becomes so expensive people can't afford it? `in a really highly paid job are you?


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Yes. I'm a politician, so I get tons of money for making bad decisions for others.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

So why don't you explain about brexit and food...and don't keep us all in suspense???

Obviously people have more important things to do like do something with their beloved pets...or chat on forums...than watch tv


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Did anyone else just watch Panorama about Brexit and how it may affect the price of food?


I'm not surprised, it was obvious prices would rise.



KatieandOliver said:


> No. Who cares.


Aren't you the lucky one then, lots of people are struggling now, I dread to think what the future holds for them.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Every price rise will get blamed on Brexit... its a dream come true for retailers and producers

I think petrol/diesel is going down but dont tell the Remoaners


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Collie... is worth me asking you for evidence of that or am I wasting my time?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cost of food will go up because this years crops are bad in many parts of the world including our own . More to do with global warming than Brexit


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

KatieandOliver said:


> No. Who cares.


I care actually, I'm on my bare bones as it is. I have enough food, gas and electric until next Monday when I get my UC. My bills are up to date.

And I have the grand total of £1.34 left. God forbid anything bad happens in the next week.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> Every price rise will get blamed on Brexit... its a dream come true for retailers and producers
> 
> I think petrol/diesel is going down but dont tell the Remoaners





Mirandashell said:


> Collie... is worth me asking you for evidence of that or am I wasting my time?


It's gone down 3p this week at my local petrol station


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Not only will it be more expensive, our food will have lower safety standards. http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ade-deal-liam-fox-uk-us-24-july-a7815751.html


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

@rona


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Every price rise will get blamed on Brexit... its a dream come true for retailers and producers
> 
> I think petrol/diesel is going down but dont tell the Remoaners


Brexit is making us poorer.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It'll make a change from eggs with salmonella and beef with mad cow.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

I like salmonella. Yummy. It's great with cabbage.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Not only will it be more expensive, our food will have lower safety standards. http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ade-deal-liam-fox-uk-us-24-july-a7815751.html


Hopefully more people will stop eating it then


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Brexits a good reason to put up prices and make redundancies, a company would be a fool not to take advantage!


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't get this at all everything is blamed on Brexit when we have not even had Brexit yet, greed is behind this any excuse to make a few more pounds out of people I saw it when we switched to decimalisation prices leapt up over night.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

No one knows yet how the cost of food will be effected when we leave the EU. Depending on trade deals that may be agreed outside the EU food could become cheaper.

The EU is very harsh on produce being imported, which is why most of the food products you buy are from within the EU.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> It's gone down 3p this week at my local petrol station


Gone down 6p here I think, from 117 to 111


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

phew glad there's some people on here who do care! thought I'd accidently joined a group for rich uncaring Tories! 

The program talked about getting food from other countries for cheaper and showed a huge farm in Iowa where the cows were outside but grain fed and not outside in the lovely green fields which were been used for producing more grain. They mentioned some things they did which were illegal or not allowed n Britain. Would people eat it as long as it was cheap etc? Maybe if you had a family of starving kids and it was either cheap meat or no meat??? 

Talked to people who ran a food project showing the effect it would have on them too as they can't charge too much as the people who used it wouldn't be able to afford to use it. 

I've volunteered at a soup kitchen for the homeless before and if food get really expensive so people couldn't afford to donate to soup kitchen and food banks then they aren't going to have enough either to feed all the people that need help to afford food. 

Anyone can lose their job and end up been unable to pay for food or having to choose between covering their rent and foregoing food and heating to keep a roof over their head until they can find another job. The only people it wouldn't affect are elite rich, celebrities and royalty


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I did intend watching, but completely forgot.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Phoenix Rising said:


> phew glad there's some people on here who do care! thought I'd accidently joined a group for rich uncaring Tories!
> 
> The program talked about getting food from other countries for cheaper and showed a huge farm in Iowa where the cows were outside but grain fed and not outside in the lovely green fields which were been used for producing more grain. They mentioned some things they did which were illegal or not allowed n Britain. Would people eat it as long as it was cheap etc? Maybe if you had a family of starving kids and it was either cheap meat or no meat???
> 
> ...


What's wrong with no Meat? Maybe if it's too expensive we should all stop eating meat.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> It'll make a change from eggs with salmonella and beef with mad cow.





rottiepointerhouse said:


> Hopefully more people will stop eating it then


That would definitely be a bonus, although it doesn't seemed to have happened in the USA where standards are much lower, sadly. There's also the worry welfare of farmed animals here will be lowered as farmers will have to compete with countries with much lower standards . And it likely wont just be meat that will be lower quality either. Will we allow unlabelled GM food & the 82 banned pesticides allowed in the US? https://www.opendemocracy.net/neweconomics/being-a-global-player-could-make-us-all-quite-ill/

I fear it will be a race to the bottom right across the board. This government have made clear their intention is to deregulate & slash red tape.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Cost of food will go up because this years crops are bad in many parts of the world including our own . More to do with global warming than Brexit





suewhite said:


> I don't get this at all everything is blamed on Brexit when we have not even had Brexit yet, greed is behind this any excuse to make a few more pounds out of people I saw it when we switched to decimalisation prices leapt up over night.


Brexit has sent the pound lower, making imports more expensive & pushing up inflation. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...dium=social&cmpid==socialflow-facebook-brexit


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

I think its unfair to force everyone to be vegetarian if they don't want to be, people should have a right to make their own mind up. With this govt though they will make sure the rich get the best quality meat (can't see them willingly giving up any privileges) so if there's going to be a shortage of high quality meat, they'll simply make it so expensive that only richer people can afford it and will become a luxury like caviar. Then they probably claim the country is been 'green' because more people are vegetarian and reducing greenhouse gasses, without mentioning most of the country had been forced into it because they simply couldn't afford to buy it, while the rich hide behind closed doors with their juicy steaks! 

And if meals like cheap chicken nuggets and chips are cheaper for people who've got kids to feed then it's better they have that than no meal at all if its all they can afford. Not all kids want to be vegetarian.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

There are very cheap and healthy options still if you use potatoes, frozen vegetables and pasta as the basis for your meals. Add a little bacon or tinned pilchards or something to these with different spices and you can have meals for well under a pound.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> It's gone down 3p this week at my local petrol station


That's not evidence, it is anecdote. Real evidence takes the form of a celebrity tweet.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I think its unfair to force everyone to be vegetarian if they don't want to be, people should have a right to make their own mind up. With this govt though they will make sure the rich get the best quality meat (can't see them willingly giving up any privileges) so if there's going to be a shortage of high quality meat, they'll simply make it so expensive that only richer people can afford it and will become a luxury like caviar. Then they probably claim the country is been 'green' because more people are vegetarian and reducing greenhouse gasses, without mentioning most of the country had been forced into it because they simply couldn't afford to buy it, while the rich hide behind closed doors with their juicy steaks!
> 
> And if meals like cheap chicken nuggets and chips are cheaper for people who've got kids to feed then it's better they have that than no meal at all if its all they can afford. Not all kids want to be vegetarian.


High quality meat is already so expensive only the well off can afford it - the stuff you buy in supermarkets/takeaways is not high quality, unless you are paying extra for the organic ranges. No one is trying to "force" people to become vegetarian just pointing out that it is perfectly possible to have a good nutritious and healthy diet without including meat or its by products which I know you are already aware of as you have read my plant based thread  It is most certainly not better for kids to be fed chicken nuggets and chips - that is not nutritious and is setting them up for poor habits and poor health in the future. Junk food should be an occasional treat only. It is shameful that children as young as 10-12 already have signs of atherosclerosis streaks in their arteries because of the crap they eat.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> High quality meat is already so expensive only the well off can afford it - the stuff you buy in supermarkets/takeaways is not high quality, unless you are paying extra for the organic ranges. No one is trying to "force" people to become vegetarian just pointing out that it is perfectly possible to have a good nutritious and healthy diet without including meat or its by products which I know you are already aware of as you have read my plant based thread  It is most certainly not better for kids to be fed chicken nuggets and chips - that is not nutritious and is setting them up for poor habits and poor health in the future. Junk food should be an occasional treat only. It is shameful that children as young as 10-12 already have signs of atherosclerosis streaks in their arteries because of the crap they eat.


I'm thinking from a viewpoint of parents really struggling to have any money . a bag of 40 chicken nuggets for a £1 will feed 4 kids twice (if they have 5 each both times) and a bag of cheap oven chips £1 could probably stretch that out to feed 4 kids twice (this is not even including a meal for the parent (s) .. £2 has fed 4 kids twice .... are you going to waste it on a bag of veg if you have one child that won't eat it? .. £2 won't buy 4 veggie lasagne's or curries. If you make them from scratch buying the rice seperately it would be more than £2 ... this is just an example some people's budgets are that tight! ...yes it's not the healthiest but surely it's better a child gets at least one small cooked meal a day rather than nothing?

Personally for myself I am trying to eat less meat and find some meat free meals I like. The sunday roast is a difficult one growing up on a meat and 2 veg diet and I go to my parents for sunday dinner who always cook a roast! Nut roasts are out for me as a 'protein source' due to severe nut allergies and I also get an allergic reaction to seeds in stuff. I did try the Quorn roast once, it was horrible!

So far Beanfeast Bolognaise has been my best discovery and I've made chilli's, lasagnes and shepherds pies with it that I actually enjoyed eating and didn't mind that it wasn't proper mince. I've even tried making pasties with it to take work using the just roll stuff (I'm not much of baker either!) to make something similar to a veggie 'cornish pasty' and I've made cheese and onion and cheese and beans ones.

Still hunting for my favourite veggie burger and sausage,some of these cost more than meat versions so again if you're on a tighter budget it doesn't always make it easy to eat that way. Especially if work means you don't get much time to make up veggie stuff from scratch every day.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I'm thinking from a viewpoint of parents really struggling to have any money . a bag of 40 chicken nuggets for a £1 will feed 4 kids twice (if they have 5 each both times) and a bag of cheap oven chips £1 could probably stretch that out to feed 4 kids twice (this is not even including a meal for the parent (s) .. £2 has fed 4 kids twice .... are you going to waste it on a bag of veg if you have one child that won't eat it? .. £2 won't buy 4 veggie lasagne's or curries. If you make them from scratch buying the rice seperately it would be more than £2 ... this is just an example some people's budgets are that tight! ...yes it's not the healthiest but surely it's better a child gets at least one small cooked meal a day rather than nothing?
> 
> Personally for myself I am trying to eat less meat and find some meat free meals I like. The sunday roast is a difficult one growing up on a meat and 2 veg diet and I go to my parents for sunday dinner who always cook a roast! Nut roasts are out for me as a 'protein source' due to severe nut allergies and I also get an allergic reaction to seeds in stuff. I did try the Quorn roast once, it was horrible!
> 
> ...


On the general election thread way back I put together a meal using red pepper, onion, tin kidney beans, tin tomatoes and brown rice for less than the cost of a cheap takeaway (chips from the chippie) and had money left over for fresh fruit for pudding and some porridge oats and berries for breakfast. The problem is you are comparing ready meal prices - of course you can't buy a packet meal of a veggie lasagne or curry for the same price but you can make a veggie curry using chickpeas or lentils very cheaply. The chronic diseases western cultures suffer from today are not called the "diseases of affluence" for no reason - we all need to get back to basics. No nuggets and chips is not a meal - its not proper food, its junk unless the nuggets are homemade and so are the chips - cooked in the oven not soaked in oil and salt - I'm going to post a recipe for an easy burger and spicy wedges on the plant based thread soon. Frozen veggies are not that expensive especially if you go to the budget supermarkets


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

1 kg of easy cook long grain brown rice from Asda £1.19 (24 p per serving)
1 kg of easy cook long grain white rice from Asda .99p (20 p per serving)


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Take into account how poverty and a shit life can grind people down, especially if it's not a temporary bind and you know things aren't likely to get much better. You're less inclined to want to mess around with lentils then and frankly would prefer an Iceland ready meal. Orwell got in right in 1937 regarding the expectation of the chattering classes that the poor live on brown bread and carrots



> Now compare this list with the unemployed miner's budget that I gave earlier. The miner's family spend only tenpence a week on green vegetables and tenpence half-penny on milk (remember that one of them is a child less than three years old), and nothing on fruit; but they spend one and nine on sugar (about eight pounds of sugar, that is) and a shilling on tea. The half-crown spent on meat might represent a small joint and the materials for a stew; probably as often as not it would represent four or five tins of bully beef. *The basis of their diet, therefore, is white bread and margarine, corned beef, sugared tea, and potatoes - an appalling diet. Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on brown bread and raw carrots. And the peculiar evil is this, that the less money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an unemployed man doesn't. Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'.* There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. Let's have three pennorth of chips! Run out and buy us a twopenny ice-cream! Put the kettle on and we'll all have a nice cup of tea! That is how your mind works when you are at the P.A.C. level. White bread-and-marg and sugared tea don't nourish you to any extent, but they are nicer (at least most people think so) than brown bread-and-dripping and cold water. Unemployment is an endless misery that has got to be constantly palliated, and especially with tea, the English-man's opium. A cup of tea or even an aspirin is much better as a temporary stimulant than a crust of brown bread.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

There is also soup I love making soup in the colder months my favourite is sweetcorn chowder really filling and tasty too


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> On the general election thread way back I put together a meal using red pepper, onion, tin kidney beans, tin tomatoes and brown rice for less than the cost of a cheap takeaway (chips from the chippie) and had money left over for fresh fruit for pudding and some porridge oats and berries for breakfast. The problem is you are comparing ready meal prices - of course you can't buy a packet meal of a veggie lasagne or curry for the same price but you can make a veggie curry using chickpeas or lentils very cheaply. The chronic diseases western cultures suffer from today are not called the "diseases of affluence" for no reason - we all need to get back to basics. No nuggets and chips is not a meal - its not proper food, its junk unless the nuggets are homemade and so are the chips - cooked in the oven not soaked in oil and salt - I'm going to post a recipe for an easy burger and spicy wedges on the plant based thread soon. Frozen veggies are not that expensive especially if you go to the budget supermarkets


I'll look forwards to that recipe I have been looking on there.I'm intending to try the banana and oat snacks and make them into little 'health shaped bar' shapes so I can take them in a packed lunch to work.

I do like some Indian stuff,went to a cousins for dinner recently and she's gone veggie and had put on these feast of Indian meat free snacks and a potato and spinach curry and it was really lovely. She'd cooked them all from scratch too. I am considering going on an evening class with her for vegetarian cooking but it doesn't start until Sept.

Do you have a healthy veggie alternative to nuggets?


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

picaresque said:


> Take into account how poverty and a shit life can grind people down, especially if it's not a temporary bind and you know things aren't likely to get much better. You're less inclined to want to mess around with lentils then and frankly would prefer an Iceland ready meal. Orwell got in right in 1937 regarding the expectation of the chattering classes that the poor live on brown bread and carrots


where did your quote come from thats in the box? I can't find it in this thread?


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I'll look forwards to that recipe I have been looking on there.I'm intending to try the banana and oat snacks and make them into little 'health shaped bar' shapes so I can take them in a packed lunch to work.
> 
> I do like some Indian stuff,went to a cousins for dinner recently and she's gone veggie and had put on these feast of Indian meat free snacks and a potato and spinach curry and it was really lovely. She'd cooked them all from scratch too. I am considering going on an evening class with her for vegetarian cooking but it doesn't start until Sept.
> 
> Do you have a healthy veggie alternative to nuggets?


 What's your obsession with nuggets?


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Phoenix Rising said:


> where did your quote come from thats in the box? I can't find it in this thread?


https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79r/chapter6.html


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Ill be honest, what I used to spend on food and drink a week was shameful, my weekly shop used to look enough to feed a small nation, and the amount will use to throw away was disgusting. Embarrassed to say I have perhaps shaved as much as £100 a week of our food shop, not something to be proud of, so really pleased I have addressed our bad eating habits.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

picaresque said:


> https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/o/orwell/george/o79r/chapter6.html


Thanks


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> where did your quote come from thats in the box? I can't find it in this thread?


It's not a quote from the thread, it's a quote from George Orwell.

And it is correct. There is a reason we have the phrase 'comfort food' in our lexicon.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

picaresque said:


> Take into account how poverty and a shit life can grind people down, especially if it's not a temporary bind and you know things aren't likely to get much better. You're less inclined to want to mess around with lentils then and frankly would prefer an Iceland ready meal. Orwell got in right in 1937 regarding the expectation of the chattering classes that the poor live on brown bread and carrots


Yes I understand that motivation can be a problem but don't tell me its not possible to feed a family healthy food for the same price as a pile of shite because it is  There is no messing around with lentils - open the packet and chuck them in, I do a biryani where you literally throw green lentils, rice, some veggies (onion, mushrooms, green pepper) in the oven with some water and spices then add some frozen peas and spinach about 20 mins before the end, its so easy a kid could do it. Trussell Trust offer cooking on a budget lessons too.



Phoenix Rising said:


> I'll look forwards to that recipe I have been looking on there.I'm intending to try the banana and oat snacks and make them into little 'health shaped bar' shapes so I can take them in a packed lunch to work.
> 
> I do like some Indian stuff,went to a cousins for dinner recently and she's gone veggie and had put on these feast of Indian meat free snacks and a potato and spinach curry and it was really lovely. She'd cooked them all from scratch too. I am considering going on an evening class with her for vegetarian cooking but it doesn't start until Sept.
> 
> Do you have a healthy veggie alternative to nuggets?


The evening class sounds great - hope you do it and can share some recipes on the thread. No I don't have a recipe for nuggets as I've never eaten them, I've never been to KFC either


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

DT said:


> There is also soup I love making soup in the colder months my favourite is sweetcorn chowder really filling and tasty too


Oooooooh that sounds really nice. Any chance of the recipe?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Oooooooh that sounds really nice. Any chance of the recipe?


Yep. Gave noush it and she loves it
Xxxx
Its basically, spuds, carrot, spring onions and sweetcorn vegetable stock cube and if not a veggie milk, ill check the recipe and confirm quantities as not made it for a couple of months. But it's really tasty and really filling to xx


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Also really like the watercress soup odd as it sounds but I only made that a couple of times and can't for the life of me find the recipe for that


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Plenty of advice above but anyone with a slow cooker and an imagination should be able to feed a family for a reasonable cost even those who eat meat just have a much larger veg to meat ratio always tasty and full of goodness.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Also seems like a good place to post this video about why we eat meat (thanks to @LinznMilly )






and to dwell for a minute or two on the sheer volume of animals we slaughter globally - 124,000 not per day, not per year but per minute :Jawdrop


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Recently changed what I eat for breakfast and it keeps me feeling full until well after what had been my normal lunchtime.
Instead of toast, yoghurt, fruit and a fruit juice I now eat porridge prepared the evening before. I've never eaten cereal of porridge for breakfast as I dont like milk, but a friend got me onto this, it's apparently from Slimming World.

Two dessert spoons of ordinary porridge oats, not the more expensive quick cook ones
I small pot of yoghurt, flavoured, if wanted.
A little water swished round the yoghurt pot to get as much as possible out of it, then hand over the pot for the dog to give the final lick out
Fruit of choice, I have found blueberries really lovely in this and put about 10 in so a little container of them lasts most of the week
Stir all the above together in a plastic container, put on a lid and leave overnight in the fridge

Cheap, filling and delicious and it's good for you too

At lunch I'm really into oatcakes which again are very filling, with a little something tasty on top.

It can be quite easy to eat cheaply if you eat foods that leave you feeling full for as long as possible and don't overbuy so that you end up chucking out food that has gone off.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I understand that motivation can be a problem but *don't tell me its not possible to feed a family healthy food for the same price as a pile of shite because it is*  There is no messing around with lentils - open the packet and chuck them in, I do a biryani where you literally throw green lentils, rice, some veggies (onion, mushrooms, green pepper) in the oven with some water and spices then add some frozen peas and spinach about 20 mins before the end, its so easy a kid could do it. Trussell Trust offer cooking on a budget lessons too.


In fairness I didn't.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

DT said:


> Yep. Gave noush it and she loves it
> Xxxx
> Its basically, spuds, carrot, spring onions and sweetcorn vegetable stock cube and if not a veggie milk, ill check the recipe and confirm quantities as not made it for a couple of months. But it's really tasty and really filling to xx


Can't wait, sounds right up my street.
Do you use a soup maker? Or just in a saucepan on the hob. Keep thinking I may get a soup maker then go off the idea. What I really want is someone to chop all the veg up for me


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Recently changed what I eat for breakfast and it keeps me feeling full until well after what had been my normal lunchtime.
> Instead of toast, yoghurt, fruit and a fruit juice I now eat porridge prepared the evening before. I've never eaten cereal of porridge for breakfast as I dont like milk, but a friend got me onto this, it's apparently from Slimming World.
> 
> Two dessert spoons of ordinary porridge oats, not the more expensive quick cook ones
> ...


Awh you have the overnight oats they are delicious I don't like milk either fortunately but, I do use it in a few things one of them being the soup I mentioned earlier ,you really don't know there is milk there . my breakfast to is a combination very near to yours and that keeps me going until lunchtime it's an apple strawberries blueberries raspberries lemon juice and whatever else I have going in the way of fruit but it's always those as the main base topped with 30 to 35 grams of muesli and then 150g of the Farg ,skyr , total or







Icelandic style yoghurt had that every day now since January and not once got tired of it


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I read that 7.3 million tonnes of food was thrown away in one year (value approximately £13 billion), so maybe people will just start being more careful what they buy ... if food prices do rise once we leave.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Can't wait, sounds right up my street.
> Do you use a soup maker? Or just in a saucepan on the hob. Keep thinking I may get a soup maker then go off the idea. What I really want is someone to chop all the veg up for me


No I don't we had two I sold them both at the car boot sale last time we did one I use a liquidiser and a saucepan


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I understand that motivation can be a problem but don't tell me its not possible to feed a family healthy food for the same price as a pile of shite because it is  There is no messing around with lentils - open the packet and chuck them in, I do a biryani where you literally throw green lentils, rice, some veggies (onion, mushrooms, green pepper) in the oven with some water and spices then add some frozen peas and spinach about 20 mins before the end, its so easy a kid could do it. Trussell Trust offer cooking on a budget lessons too.


Bleargh. I wouldn't eat that if you PAID me. And that's nothing to do with how nice it probably is, but my tastes do NOT run that way. It may be good and wholesome, but if I don't fancy what's in it, I'm not going to eat it. That's what the George Orwell quote is all about.

Look, no-one is suggesting you _can't_ feed a family healthy food for the same price as supermarket rubbish. But to neglect the part that motivation and enjoyment plays in the equation is to miss the point spectacularly.

And give that the whole thread is now missing the original point, let me get back on track by saying that most of the ingredients in that recipe of yours are imported (lentils, rice, spices, most of the veg), and are therefore likely to be subject to significant Brexit related price rises.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DT said:


> Plenty of advice above but anyone with a slow cooker and an imagination should be able to feed a family for a reasonable cost even those who eat meat just have a much larger veg to meat ratio always tasty and full of goodness.


Very true DT, the blue zones around the world which are pockets within countries with the highest life expectancy do still eat meat occasionally but in much much smaller amounts than most westerners do

https://bluezones.com/2016/11/power-9/

Its a very interesting website with a test to take to show you your life expectancy and anticipated healthy years

*4. 80% Rule*
"Hara hachi bu" - the Okinawan, 2500-year old Confucian mantra said before meals reminds them to stop eating when their stomachs are 80 percent full. The 20% gap between not being hungry and feeling full could be the difference between losing weight or gaining it. People in the Blue Zones eat their smallest meal in the late afternoon or early evening and then they don't eat any more the rest of the day.

*5. Plant Slant*
Beans, including fava, black, soy and lentils, are the cornerstone of most centenarian diets. Meat-mostly pork-is eaten on average only five times per month. Serving sizes are 3-4 oz., about the size of deck or cards

.This is the test

https://apps.bluezones.com/en/vital...07.1783814339.1499771905-771430628.1499771905


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Bleargh. I wouldn't eat that if you PAID me. And that's nothing to do with how nice it probably is, but my tastes do NOT run that way. It may be good and wholesome, but if I don't fancy what's in it, I'm not going to eat it. That's what the George Orwell quote is all about.
> 
> Look, no-one is suggesting you _can't_ feed a family healthy food for the same price as supermarket rubbish. But to neglect the part that motivation and enjoyment plays in the equation is to miss the point spectacularly.
> 
> And give that the whole thread is now missing the original point, let me get back on track by saying that most of the ingredients in that recipe of yours are imported (lentils, rice, spices, most of the veg), and are therefore likely to be subject to significant Brexit related price rises.


Yes someone was suggesting that - the OP was a while back suggesting that chicken nuggets and chips may be all that a family can afford. Don't worry I am not about to pay you to eat healthy food but I don't think you should expect the NHS to pay for any medication and health care should you become sick from eating junk food either  Not all of the ingredients are imported according to the tesco website and that was just one example of a quick and easy to cook recipe.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Don't worry I am not about to pay you to eat healthy food but I don't think you should expect the NHS to pay for any medication and health care should you become sick from eating junk food either  .


Of course, anyone who has an illness or condition that might be deemed to be self inflicted should be left to die in the gutter.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

picaresque said:


> Of course, anyone who has an illness or condition that might be deemed to be self inflicted should be left to die in the gutter.


Yes of course - when I was nursing I used to tell all smokers, drinkers, junk food eaters, motorbike riders, horse riders, extreme sports fans etc to go outside and die quietly. Not. However we do know a lot more about nutrition these days and there is plenty of information out there for free. Our NHS will be crippled beyond saving if people continue to overindulge in unhealthy foods so at some point we are going to have to say enough. Stop. Do something about it because we can't afford to keep funding the illnesses that result.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

picaresque said:


> Of course, anyone who has an illness or condition that might be deemed to be self inflicted should be left to die in the gutter.


I don't think rottie quite meant it that way I read it that she meant we are all responsible for what we put into our mouths and that of our children people bang on about how smokers shouldn't be helped nor drug addiction , so if we are all eating junk it could be looked upon the same way by some


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes someone was suggesting that - the OP was a while back suggesting that chicken nuggets and chips may be all that a family can afford. Don't worry I am not about to pay you to eat healthy food but I don't think you should expect the NHS to pay for any medication and health care should you become sick from eating junk food either  Not all of the ingredients are imported according to the tesco website and that was just one example of a quick and easy to cook recipe.


Then you miss the other side of 'afford' - when you are tired, depressed and sick of fighting all day every day to scrape by (whilst being told by others you obviously aren't trying hard enough), oddly enough you can lack the drive to spend hours on websites working out what miracle of healthy food you can spend hours traipsing round different shops to source at the cheapest price this week.

And thank you for going straight in the deep end of judgemental - you don't know what I actually eat aside from that I think chewing cardboard would be more appetising that one particular recipe, and as far as I am concerned 99% of the time 'quick' and 'easy to cook' should always be accompanied by 'tasty in the opinion of the person who has to eat it'. As it happens, I am pretty good at healthy, tasty and cheap, but that doesn't mean I don't fancy an oven pizza sometimes (cheese only, and always bought on offer  )! Which, aside from the occasional pie, are the only 'ready meal' in the house. Sometimes when I get home from work, the last thing I want to think about is spending a long time in the kitchen cooking - I'm only human, sorry. If that means you think I don't deserve medical care, then that's your get go. But most of the NHS budget goes on geriatric care these days, and as far as I am aware no diet on the planet has stopped people getting old. Unless you die early from a diet related heart attack or similar, of course. Yes, a good diet and healthy lifestyle can keep you healthier longer, but it won't do so forever and it's not guaranteed.

Don't get me wrong, I support any drive to encourage people to eat healthily. I'm just saying you'd probably have a lot more success with your preaching if you started from where people are at and encouraged them in a positive fashion one step at a time, as opposed to standing on a soapbox telling people they are doing it wrong, which is unfortunately how you are tending to come across.

Incidentally, unless it states UK grown, last I checked a food only has to be processed in the UK to be classified as British.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I realise you have a huge interest in veganism and plant based diets @rottiepointerhouse but it's getting a bit evangelical. There is a problem with modern western diets but it's a complicated issue and suggesting we cut off unhealthy eaters (often the most disadvantaged) from the NHS isn't the best way of dealing with it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Then you miss the other side of 'afford' - when you are tired, depressed and sick of fighting all day every day to scrape by (whilst being told by others you obviously aren't trying hard enough), oddly enough you can lack the drive to spend hours on websites working out what miracle of healthy food you can spend hours traipsing round different shops to source at the cheapest price this week.
> 
> And thank you for going straight in the deep end of judgemental - you don't know what I actually eat aside from that I think chewing cardboard would be more appetising that one particular recipe, and as far as I am concerned 99% of the time 'quick' and 'easy to cook' should always be accompanied by 'tasty in the opinion of the person who has to eat it'. As it happens, I am pretty good at healthy, tasty and cheap, but that doesn't mean I don't fancy an oven pizza sometimes (cheese only, and always bought on offer  )! Which, aside from the occasional pie, are the only 'ready meal' in the house. Sometimes when I get home from work, the last thing I want to think about is spending a long time in the kitchen cooking - I'm only human, sorry. If that means you think I don't deserve medical care, then that's your get go. But most of the NHS budget goes on geriatric care these days, and as far as I am aware no diet on the planet has stopped people getting old. Unless you die early from a diet related heart attack or similar, of course. Yes, a good diet and healthy lifestyle can keep you healthier longer, but it won't do so forever and it's not guaranteed.
> 
> ...


No I didn't miss anything, don't you think I've ever been poor and tired and depressed? I won't drag that all up again but I have been there thanks. I'm not saying there are not times when people feel defeated and can't be bothered to find out more about the options available but one of the reasons I support the Trussell Trust is because of the work they do on education as much as for the food bank element. My whole point in posting that one recipe you seem to have taken such great exception to was to show its possible to throw a healthy meal together without spending hours on it - of course it is also "tasty" - that is what spices and garlic are for. No diet can stop us from getting old but if you bother to read the blue zone links and stacks of other research you will find diet can increase longevity and more importantly can reduce the number of sick/unhealthy years we endure at the end of our life, it can and does significantly reduce the incidence of most chronic diseases too. Thank you anyway for the character assassination - I'm not out to change the world and frankly if you or anyone else find me "preachy" that is your problem not mine 

For anyone who is interested have a look at this website which features the work and research of Dr Dean Ornish

https://www.ornish.com/proven-program/the-research/

*Increase Telomerase, the enzyme that maintains telomere length*

Results of this study, published in the journal Lancet Oncology, showed, for the first time, that changing lifestyle significantly increases telomerase. Telomerase is the enzyme responsible for maintaining telomere length. Telomeres are the ends of chromosomes that influence how long we live. This is the first time that any intervention, even drugs, has been shown to significantly increase telomerase.

*Increase Telomeres, the ends of chromosomes that control cell aging*

A pilot study, published in The Lancet Oncology, shows that comprehensive lifestyle changes may increase the length of telomeres, the ends of chromosomes that control cell aging. This is the first study to show that any intervention might lengthen telomeres over time. If the findings are confirmed by larger randomized controlled trials, scientists will begin to have a better understanding of how lifestyle changes may have the potential to reverse aging on a cellular level.








*Turn on health-promoting genes & turn off disease-promoting genes*

In this study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, we found that over 500 genes were affected by lifestyle changes. In fact, certain disease preventing genes were up-regulated, or turned on, and certain disease promoting genes, including oncogenes involved in cancer, were down-regulated, or turned off. The results of this study suggest that comprehensive lifestyle changes may cause changes in gene expression that could be beneficial to the general population as well as to those with prostate cancer.

"Changes in prostate gene expression in men undergoing an intensive nutrition and lifestyle intervention."
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS): www.pnas.org (PDF)


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

picaresque said:


> I realise you have a huge interest in veganism and plant based diets @rottiepointerhouse but it's getting a bit evangelical. There is a problem with modern western diets but it's a complicated issue and suggesting we cut off unhealthy eaters (often the most disadvantaged) from the NHS isn't the best way of dealing with it.


I won't apologise for promoting plant based diets @picaresque and I won't apologise for promoting healthy diets and lifestyles even ones that include some meat/dairy such as those in the blue zones. I did not suggest we cut off unhealthy eaters from the NHS - I made one comment in response to someone who went out of their way to be rude about one recipe they didn't fancy which I found rather childish. I do however think we all have a responsibility to do everything we can to promote health and stop change our behaviours which have a negative impact on us as individuals and the world as a whole. If you find it annoying or evangelical then put me on ignore but don't expect me to stop promoting healthy eating anytime soon because I won't


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

You don't have to stop anything on my account RPH. I'm not putting you on ignore either


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

picaresque said:


> You don't have to stop anything on my account RPH. I'm not putting you on ignore either


Thank you - I always enjoy our exchanges so would be sad if you did


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DT said:


> Also really like the watercress soup odd as it sounds but I only made that a couple of times and can't for the life of me find the recipe for that


I love watercress, pea and mint soup especially in the summer.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Also seems like a good place to post this video about why we eat meat (thanks to @LinznMilly )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's shocking 

I'm making a change tonight. No pepperoni on my Domino's pizza (probably swap it for extra cheese). I'll keep the ham and beef though


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> That's shocking
> 
> I'm making a change tonight. No pepperoni on my Domino's pizza tonight (probably swap it for extra cheese). I'll keep the ham and beef though


Don't forget the side order of statins now


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I didn't miss anything, don't you think I've ever been poor and tired and depressed? I won't drag that all up again but I have been there thanks. I'm not saying there are not times when people feel defeated and can't be bothered to find out more about the options available but one of the reasons I support the Trussell Trust is because of the work they do on education as much as for the food bank element. My whole point in posting that one recipe you seem to have taken such great exception to was to show its possible to throw a healthy meal together without spending hours on it - *of course it is also "tasty" - that is what spices and garlic are for*.


Yes, you _are_ still missing the point. My comment on the recipe was never meant to be taken this seriously or personally and was intended more a way of linking back to the George Orwell quote in a slightly humerous fashion (maybe I should have gone heavy on the smilies  ), but I may as well clarify I don't take the slightest exception to the recipe (and certainly not to you, despite your assessment of me  ), it is the apparent assumption that it is automatically 'tasty' for everyone which is flawed. To me, it is the polar opposite of tasty. I love mild, subtle flavours, and like neither garlic nor spices. I don't even have regular black pepper in the house, I hate the stuff. Onion in a salad kills the whole salad for me, and even if I pick all the onion out I can taste nothing else for hours from the lingering juice on the other bits. So people can tell me until the cows come home that particular recipe is good for me and tasty, but to _me personally _it's never going to be tasty. On the balance of probabilities, I would expect this to be true for others too.

Now, if people want to respond to that along the lines of 'OK, what DO you like and let's start from there', that's fine by me and I'm open to that. My best friend has recently decided to give veganism a try (though she still cooks non-vegan for her family too), and as a result we've had quite a few discussions over how it can be very hard to make vegan food tasty when you take all the strong seasonings out of the equation. Liking mild flavours does not translate to liking bland food, after all! She's a very, very good cook, but so far we've drawn a blank on finding any vegan meal I could honestly call 'tasty' - decent enough to eat, certainly, but I wouldn't be demanding seconds. So I guess we'll have to keep working on that, won't we?



rottiepointerhouse said:


> No diet can stop us from getting old but if you bother to read the blue zone links and stacks of other research you will find diet can increase longevity and more importantly can reduce the number of sick/unhealthy years we endure at the end of our life, it can and does significantly reduce the incidence of most chronic diseases too. *Thank you anyway for the character assassination* - I'm not out to change the world and frankly if you or anyone else find me "preachy" that is your problem not mine


If you think that's my aim, then you misjudge me gravely.

I would suggest you misjudge yourself, too - you ARE out to change the world in some small way, and that is not a bad thing. I simply suggest that a change in style of how you present your case would greatly increase the net positive impact beyond what you believe you can have


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm similar over 'flavourings' as I don't like pepper, mustard, chilli and any other hot spices. I eat garlic and onion in moderation, but what I really like is to actually taste the food I'm eating and not have that taste smothered by something spicy. I can never understand why prawns are often served with chilli, prawns taste lovely, why kill the taste with something that's so hot that it makes your eyes water (well mine anyway as I'm not used to hot spicy additives). 

I often peruse veggie dishes when we eat out as I'm not a big meat eater, much prefer fish or will eat chicken. More often or not veggie dishes seem to be 'spiced' up with something I won't eat in order to make them 'tasty'.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> I would suggest you misjudge yourself, too - you ARE out to change the world in some small way, and that is not a bad thing. I simply suggest that a change in style of how you present your case would greatly increase the net positive impact beyond what you believe you can have


If people want to change, they can. Didn't rottiepointerhouse start a thread on plant based diet fairly recently? That at least provided the option of looking or not instead of taking over a thread on a completely different subject. I've found that ramming things down people's throats doesn't work. Best vegetarians and vegans I've met don't shove their beliefs in your face.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think most of us could do better when it comes to healthy food. Im extremely guilty of this and often go for the lazy option of taking shop bought stuff out of the freezer and sticking it on a baking tray in the oven! I really have no excuse either coz I know what is good for me (and it also happens to be much cheaper too!) and Im very obese....and a nurse!! (literally no excuses at all!:Shy).
I did make the effort the other day though. Made 4 portions veggie 'stuff' which is tinned tomatoes, onions, grated carrot and courgette, celery, basil and garlic. That does for spagetti sauce, vegetable curry (by adding some curry powder), stew (with potatoes and maybe veggie sausages) or cottage pie with mash topping. I think you tend to get addicted to the chemicals and fats in packaged foods though and stop appreciated home cooked 'plain' stuff.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Goblin said:


> If people want to change, they can. Didn't rottiepointerhouse start a thread on plant based diet fairly recently? *That at least provided the option of looking or not instead of taking over a thread on a completely different subject*. I've found that ramming things down people's throats doesn't work. Best vegetarians and vegans I've met don't shove their beliefs in your face.


In my defence, sir - I didn't start it...  

...this time!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

KatieandOliver said:


> I like salmonella. Yummy. It's great with cabbage.


Salmonella was best smoked to be honest. This week it's salmonfrank and next week it will be..........well, who knows, it all depends on who the salmon looks like.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

The price of petrol and food will rise and fall for many reasons other than the Brexit vote.

However, we import 40% of our food, and oil is priced in dollars.

So regardless of those other factors and their effects, both petrol and food are up to 15% more expensive than they would be had the pound not plummeted in response to the Leave vote.

To say 'petrol is going down' as a refutation of that fact is rather silly. Without the Leave vote it would be a lot cheaper still.

What happens to food prices immediately after the actual Brexit depends on the negotiations with the EU. But if tariffs are imposed, they will add to food prices considerably from day 1.

It is only on that day 1 that we can begin detailed trade negotiations with other countries, so there would, under that scenario, be a quite extensive period before we could replace higher priced food imports with cheaper alternatives. Like, maybe, US GM crops, for example ...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I think most of us could do better when it comes to healthy food. Im extremely guilty of this and often go for the lazy option of taking shop bought stuff out of the freezer and sticking it on a baking tray in the oven!


Me too. All this measuring and soaking and stirring, then the washing up, when I can chuck something in the microwave and use a fork and I'm not cooking for anyone else. My GP is morbidly obese, I suppose the NHS shouldn't treat her either. She can join you on the naughty step. There is the view that exercise is more important than diet.

On cheap food and Brexit. It's all getting a bit chicken licken, with the sky falling in. Unfortunately if it is there's not much we can do about it and worrying constantly makes us ill. So I'm trying to avoid the constant portents of doom. Sometimes the doomsayers cause the crash and we'd all have been better off ignoring them, there's a lot of smug 'told you so', when it should be 'made it so', or 'would have been so regardless'. That's beside the 'it didn't happen'.

So now we all know food prices will rise, we can get our cupboards stockpiled ready for it and put our names down for allotments. It really depends on how our government approaches it. Food prices could stay the same, could increase, could get cheaper. We could trade with other countries and help them thrive, we could increase our own production, we could change the way we eat. It's going to take a long time before things settle down and they can't predict markets, either our own or the world and the average person cant really influence it, it's up to the big boys and policy.

With everyone wanting higher wage rises and more of everything, prices will probably rise anyway.

It's a shame the Eu prevents us from negotiating trade deals outside of it in preparation, but I presume that's because they want their trade deal first and may want to restrict our trade outside of it in the agreement. I don't know enough about it.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Beans are cheap, and you can do a heck of a lot with beans, don't think there are many kids that don't like them either, rather feed a can of beans then a chicken nugget myself


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

What normally happens on this forum has evidently happened again
People taking offence at what has been said when it were meant tongue in cheek!

We know for a fact that the biggest strain on the NHS apart from the aging population is preventive illnesses.
Over the decades the government have spent untold fortunes trying to educate us to take responsibility for our health, when most people of my age started smoking the habit was not discouraged, it's only over the last couple of decades that preventive here has been prominent.
We are hearing continuing warnings relating to food related illnesses diabetes type 2 for starters, heart , internal organs etc, 
So because old Tommy aged 86 smoked all his life because he was never educated otherwise some would say he should not be treated.
Because poor Betty has been on the gin for donkies years and never listened to medical advise some would say lets just leave her to pickle her liver.
Yet wee wiiliams who's mother has stuffed him with chicken nuggets and beefburgers since the day he was weaned at 42 now has diabetes, 2 ulcerated legs a week heart no teeth and joint strain that's a poverty illness

Doesn't add up to me
They are self inflicted, and all need educating, but no, I don't blame anyone for saying it, just prefer there to be a level playing field when these folks start their spouting.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Jesthar said:


> She's a very, very good cook, but so far we've drawn a blank on finding any vegan meal I could honestly call 'tasty' - decent enough to eat, certainly, but I wouldn't be demanding seconds. So I guess we'll have to keep working on that, won't we?


Some vegan inspiration courtesy Paul Askew......

Warm salad of roasted fig, Summer leaves, fennel, wild rocket, red onion, sugar & salt roasted walnuts, focaccia croutes with Mirabelle plum dressing
-
Citrus braised turtle beans, girolles, charred leeks with new season peas & feves
-
Roasted summer courgettes, tempura courgette flower, tapenade, confit tomatoes, smoked aubergine puree & quinoa
-
Marinated pan-fried tofu, spaghetti vegetables, new season Claremont Farm asparagus, crispy kale, almonds & enoki mushrooms


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Yes, you _are_ still missing the point. My comment on the recipe was never meant to be taken this seriously or personally and was intended more a way of linking back to the George Orwell quote in a slightly humerous fashion (maybe I should have gone heavy on the smilies  ), but I may as well clarify I don't take the slightest exception to the recipe (and certainly not to you, despite your assessment of me  ), it is the apparent assumption that it is automatically 'tasty' for everyone which is flawed. To me, it is the polar opposite of tasty. I love mild, subtle flavours, and like neither garlic nor spices. I don't even have regular black pepper in the house, I hate the stuff. Onion in a salad kills the whole salad for me, and even if I pick all the onion out I can taste nothing else for hours from the lingering juice on the other bits. So people can tell me until the cows come home that particular recipe is good for me and tasty, but to _me personally _it's never going to be tasty. On the balance of probabilities, I would expect this to be true for others too.
> 
> Now, if people want to respond to that along the lines of 'OK, what DO you like and let's start from there', that's fine by me and I'm open to that. My best friend has recently decided to give veganism a try (though she still cooks non-vegan for her family too), and as a result we've had quite a few discussions over how it can be very hard to make vegan food tasty when you take all the strong seasonings out of the equation. Liking mild flavours does not translate to liking bland food, after all! She's a very, very good cook, but so far we've drawn a blank on finding any vegan meal I could honestly call 'tasty' - decent enough to eat, certainly, but I wouldn't be demanding seconds. So I guess we'll have to keep working on that, won't we?
> 
> ...


My apologies for misunderstanding you and what you meant by not being tasty. When most people say that they mean they think the food will lack flavour and will be bland which is why I mentioned spices/onion/garlic but I don't use those in all of my meals, sometimes use herbs but like someone else said its nice to just taste what the food is supposed to taste like without a load of salt over it.



Goblin said:


> If people want to change, they can. Didn't rottiepointerhouse start a thread on plant based diet fairly recently? That at least provided the option of looking or not instead of taking over a thread on a completely different subject. I've found that ramming things down people's throats doesn't work. Best vegetarians and vegans I've met don't shove their beliefs in your face.


Yes I did start a thread on the subject but that doesn't mean I can't discuss it in other threads does it or do you now set the rules about what can be discussed where? The only reason I even brought it up on this thread was because the OP mentioned it being hard for families to provide food for their children to equal the cheapness of chicken nuggets and chips then as often happens when others join in the thread diversified but feel free to carry on discussing your views on the subject but take care not to shove your beliefs about Brexit in our faces or we might call you out as a hypocrite


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> So now we all know food prices will rise,


How do we know this?

I've just watched the programme that this thread was stated about and saw nothing of the sort


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Siskin said:


> I often peruse veggie dishes when we eat out as I'm not a big meat eater, much prefer fish or will eat chicken. More often or not veggie dishes seem to be 'spiced' up with something I won't eat in order to make them 'tasty'.


It's what puts me off too.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> How do we know this?
> 
> I've just watched the programme that this thread was stated about and saw nothing of the sort


We don't, I was being lazy.  The next thing I typed was that it could go up, down, or stay the same.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I did start a thread on the subject but that doesn't mean I can't discuss it in other threads does it or do you now set the rules about what can be discussed where?


Defensive aren't you. Says it all really. Then again veganism and vegetarianism has science debunking it as the miracle solution claimed by those supporting it and trying to ram it down everyone's throat.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Defensive aren't you? Says it all really. Then again veganism and vegetarianism has science debunking it as the miracle solution claimed by those supporting it and trying to ram it down everyone's throat.


Says what? That I care about the state of our nation's health, that I care about people suffering from long term chronic illness, that I care about people like my Dad dying needlessly of bowel cancer aged 46 when some very simple diet changes would have drastically reduced his risk of dong so - which they knew about back in the 1970's. Yes that says it all about me and what sir shall we say about you?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Defensive aren't you. Says it all really. Then again veganism and vegetarianism has science debunking it as the miracle solution claimed by those supporting it and trying to ram it down everyone's throat.


Bit like you with the brexit thread then ! The pot and the kettle spring to mind


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Says what? That I care about the state of our nation's health, that I care about people suffering from long term chronic illness, that I care about people like my Dad dying needlessly of bowel cancer aged 46 when some very simple diet changes would have drastically reduced his risk of dong so - which they knew about back in the 1970's. Yes that says it all about me and what sir shall we say about you?


You can say whatever you like about me. I know what I eat, smoke and drink and it's not for you to dictate what I do morally or otherwise. Maybe I should hijack your vegetarian thread with brexit as obviously I'm a hypocrite... wait, I didn't.

Edit: the inlaws passed away both in the 90's, my parents both in their 80's still around yet they all ate meat throughout their lives. Amazing that isn't it as apparantly plant based diets are the only solution.



DT said:


> Bit like you with the brexit thread then ! The pot and the kettle spring to mind


Ah, discussing brexit in a brexit thread... well I never.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> You can say whatever you like about me. I know what I eat, smoke and drink and it's not for you to dictate what I do morally or otherwise. Maybe I should hijack your vegetarian thread with brexit as obviously I'm a hypocrite... wait, I didn't.
> 
> Ah, discussing brexit in a brexit thread... well I never.


You are so funny￼￼￼
Did you go to drama school of are you self taught


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Maybe I should hijack your vegetarian thread with brexit
> 
> Ah, discussing brexit in a brexit thread... well I never.


well, Im confused! How do you discuss brexit making food more expensive without discussing food!?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> You can say whatever you like about me. I know what I eat, smoke and drink and it's not for you to dictate what I do morally or otherwise. Maybe I should hijack your vegetarian thread with brexit as obviously I'm a hypocrite... wait, I didn't.
> 
> Edit: the inlaws passed away both in the 90's, my parents both in their 80's still around yet they all ate meat throughout their lives. Amazing that isn't it as apparantly plant based diets are the only solution.
> 
> Ah, discussing brexit in a brexit thread... well I never.


Have I ever tried to dictate what you do morally or otherwise? I really couldn't give a flying fig what you do or what you eat as long as you don't want me to pay for it but as @catz4m8z has said this is a thread about brexit and food so of course we are going to discuss food. The person who started this thread started a dialogue with me about chicken nuggets and chips v vegetarian food so expect me to respond or do I need to ask your permission first? Please also show me where I have said everyone who eats meat will die early or where I have said plant based diets are the only solution. They do come out top in pretty much every trial undertaken but they are not the only solution to ill health - on my thread I've talked about books that cater for occasional meat eaters and some of the plant based doctors who do accommodate them, I've even posted in this thread about the blue zones and quoted the part about them eating occasional meat. I'm someone with a very high genetic risk of cancer so when I read scientific research that shows eating beans 3 times a week could cut my risk of bowel cancer by 50% of course I'm going to listen and I'm going to share that information with as many people as I can. What information do you have to share that eating meat for instance reduces the risk of bowel, breast or prostate cancer or heart attacks? or strokes or erectile dysfunction?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> well, Im confused! How do you discuss brexit making food more expensive without discussing food!?


With great difficulty


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Have I ever tried to dictate what you do morally or otherwise? I really couldn't give a flying fig what you do or what you eat as long as you don't want me to pay for it but as @catz4m8z has said this is a thread about brexit and food so of course we are going to discuss food. The person who started this thread started a dialogue with me about chicken nuggets and chips v vegetarian food so expect me to respond or do I need to ask your permission first? Please also show me where I have said everyone who eats meat will die early or where I have said plant based diets are the only solution. They do come out top in pretty much every trial undertaken but they are not the only solution to ill health - on my thread I've talked about books that cater for occasional meat eaters and some of the plant based doctors who do accommodate them, I've even posted in this thread about the blue zones and quoted the part about them eating occasional meat. I'm someone with a very high genetic risk of cancer so when I read scientific research that shows eating beans 3 times a week could cut my risk of bowel cancer by 50% of course I'm going to listen and I'm going to share that information with as many people as I can. What information do you have to share that eating meat for instance reduces the risk of bowel, breast or prostate cancer or heart attacks?


oh heck you are scaring me now I didn't know I had a prostrate


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

DT said:


> With great difficulty


Brisket means Brisket.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DT said:


> oh heck you are scaring me now I didn't know I had a prostrate


You haven't - he has  I like to make sure my OH gets his cruciferous veggies and tomatoes too


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You haven't - he has  I like to make sure my OH gets his cruciferous veggies and tomatoes too


Ok I get it so if I 6 cans a week that will totally eliminate the Threat then I take


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Have I ever tried to dictate what you do morally or otherwise? I really couldn't give a flying fig what you do or what you eat as long as you don't want me to pay for it but as @catz4m8z has said this is a thread about brexit and food so of course we are going to discuss food. The person who started this thread started a dialogue with me about chicken nuggets and chips v vegetarian food so expect me to respond or do I need to ask your permission first? Please also show me where I have said everyone who eats meat will die early or where I have said plant based diets are the only solution. They do come out top in pretty much every trial undertaken but they are not the only solution to ill health - on my thread I've talked about books that cater for occasional meat eaters and some of the plant based doctors who do accommodate them, I've even posted in this thread about the blue zones and quoted the part about them eating occasional meat. I'm someone with a very high genetic risk of cancer so when I read scientific research that shows eating beans 3 times a week could cut my risk of bowel cancer by 50% of course I'm going to listen and I'm going to share that information with as many people as I can. What information do you have to share that eating meat for instance reduces the risk of bowel, breast or prostate cancer or heart attacks? or strokes or erectile dysfunction?


Speaking of cancer risk and trying to reduce it I wondered if you had heard of an enzyme called Vitalzym that breaks down the Fibrin which clots/tumours are made from? I've used it for dissolving fibroids and have heard of some who take it for prevention of clots and tumours. It isn't cheap though.

I knew tomatoes were meant to be good against cancers and I love chopped toms and tomato based soups and sauces anyway, didn't know about beans.. Any beans? or specific ones?

Health reasons is why I'm trying to change my diet but I tend to be a lazy cook who likes finger food (ie nuggets and chips, fishfinger sandwiches!) and convenience food. I'm willing to try and find some healthier that I could make and freeze for when I fancied something like that.

I did make myself a veggie curry tonight with homemade turmeric chips (another spice with health benefits!) and had the curry in wholemeal pitta pockets. Made a nice 'Fakeaway', rest of curry is in freezer for another night when I'm late home from work and too tired to cook!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Speaking of cancer risk and trying to reduce it I wondered if you had heard of an enzyme called Vitalzym that breaks down the Fibrin which clots/tumours are made from? I've used it for dissolving fibroids and have heard of some who take it for prevention of clots and tumours. It isn't cheap though.
> 
> I knew tomatoes were meant to be good against cancers and I love chopped toms and tomato based soups and sauces anyway, didn't know about beans.. Any beans? or specific ones?
> 
> ...


Omg, I eat tomatoes like I eat grapes, the little sweet vine ones, add them too the six tins of beans recommended by rot tie I'm gonna live to be 120
Now, I bet that's scared a few


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

DT said:


> Omg, I eat tomatoes like I eat grapes, the little sweet vine ones, add them too the six tins of beans recommended by rot tie I'm gonna live to be 120
> Now, I bet that's scared a few


which six tins of beans???


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Goblin said:


> You can say whatever you like about me. I know what I eat, smoke and drink and it's not for you to dictate what I do morally or otherwise. Maybe I should hijack your vegetarian thread with brexit as obviously I'm a hypocrite... wait, I didn't.
> 
> Edit: the inlaws passed away both in the 90's, my parents both in their 80's still around yet they all ate meat throughout their lives. Amazing that isn't it as apparantly plant based diets are the only solution.
> 
> Ah, discussing brexit in a brexit thread... well I never.


Meat is MURDER.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

KatieandOliver said:


> Meat is MURDER.


Eating is murder, its just ones perspective on what is acceptable or not that varies.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I won't apologise for promoting plant based diets @picaresque and I won't apologise for promoting healthy diets and lifestyles even ones that include some meat/dairy such as those in the blue zones. I did not suggest we cut off unhealthy eaters from the NHS - I made one comment in response to someone who went out of their way to be rude about one recipe they didn't fancy which I found rather childish. I do however think we all have a responsibility to do everything we can to promote health and stop change our behaviours which have a negative impact on us as individuals and the world as a whole. If you find it annoying or evangelical then put me on ignore but don't expect me to stop promoting healthy eating anytime soon because I won't


I have found making healthier choices easier when I shop online with Ocado through MySupermarket. They have a thing on the right hand side showing how much sugar, salt and something else in your full shop. Fat maybe? Anyway, if you click on it, it shows you similar items to the naughty ones, but that have lower levels of whatever is the bad ingredient. I think it's a fab idea


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I love watercress, pea and mint soup especially in the summer.


Ooh, my sister in law is Korean and she makes these amazing spring rolls, that are jammed full of mint. It actually makes it taste quite spicy. I can see if she'll give me the recipe, if you want


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DT said:


> Omg, I eat tomatoes like I eat grapes, the little sweet vine ones, add them too the six tins of beans recommended by rot tie I'm gonna live to be 120
> Now, I bet that's scared a few


My mum absolutely adores tomatoes, so was really distraught to find out that the acids in toms exacerbates arthritis. Now she can't eat them, as it hurts too much. She did discover that gin helps with the pain, but that may just be getting sloshed....


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> My mum absolutely adores tomatoes, so was really distraught to find out that the acids in toms exacerbates arthritis. Now she can't eat them, as it hurts too much. She did discover that gin helps with the pain, but that may just be getting sloshed....


That's interesting and disappointing at the same time.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

cbcdesign said:


> That's interesting and disappointing at the same time.


I've just found this that raises 2 points on my post a) mum clearly dispensed with the raisins and went straight to the gin (good girl!); and b) the nightshade thing is a myth, but I wonder if it just so happened that she had a lessening of pain at the same time, and now it's in her head?

http://www.arthritis.org/living-wit...et/anti-inflammatory/food-myths-arthritis.php


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dunno how old you mum is miffy, guessing she may be a far bit old then me, I haven't even got the slightest hint of this arthuritius but then I discovered the gin prior to the tomatoes


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DT said:


> Dunno how old you mum is miffy, guessing she may be a far bit old then me, I haven't even got the slightest hint of this arthuritius but then I discovered the gin prior to the tomatoes


She's 79, but I think she started getting it about 20ish years ago. I'm not sure if she's hyper mobile, but I am and it has been linked to a higher risk of osteoarthritis


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> Ooh, my sister in law is Korean and she makes these* amazing spring rolls, that are jammed full of mint*. It actually makes it taste quite spicy. I can see if she'll give me the recipe, if you want


Ooh they sound nice!

I do love mint, I still use mint sauce with my roast dinner even though I don't eat the lamb it's supposed to go with any more!


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2017)

Phoenix Rising said:


> And if meals like cheap chicken nuggets and chips are cheaper for people who've got kids to feed then it's better they have that than no meal at all if its all they can afford. Not all kids want to be vegetarian.


*shrug* I grew up on beans and rice as a staple, still is in my house.
Cheap, inexpensive, and pretty complete meal.

Never fed my kids a chicken nugget. Never found them to bet cheaper than beans and rice either.

No comment on the cost of food in the UK, but here in the US, at least where we live, plenty of people still grow a lot of their own food. Lots of backyard chickens for eggs (and meat), and folks also keep goats for meat and milk.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

cbcdesign said:


> Eating is murder, its just ones perspective on what is acceptable or not that varies.


Yes, I don't really think like that, I was just winding up someone who was being unpleasant.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> She's 79, but I think she started getting it about 20ish years ago. I'm not sure if she's hyper mobile, but I am and it has been linked to a higher risk of osteoarthritis


Well in all honesty I think we can all expect a few aches and pains, I like her way of thinking though, that the gin eases it


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

KatieandOliver said:


> Yes, I don't really think like that, I was just winding up someone who was being unpleasant.


Duh, you share my wavelength there's not much written on the disease but think there is a name for it, gobbleitius


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> *shrug* I grew up on beans and rice as a staple, still is in my house.
> Cheap, inexpensive, and pretty complete meal.
> *
> Never fed my kids a chicken nugget.* Never found them to bet cheaper than beans and rice either.
> ...


I didn't either, among many other over processed things I don't think they need, & other parents had the temerity to judge my choices, apparently I was being unfair & taking the fun out of food for them


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I didn't either, among many other over processed things I don't think they need, & other parents had the temerity to judge my choices, apparently I was being unfair & taking the fun out of food for them


Me neither, its along time since mine,were. children, but think the most convenient food,I ever fed them would have been a birds eye or ross fish finger


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2017)

simplysardonic said:


> I didn't either, among many other over processed things I don't think they need, & other parents had the temerity to judge my choices, apparently I was being unfair & taking the fun out of food for them



Some people make a sport out of judging parental choices. Fortunately my kids are getting old enough that I can shrug off the comments, as so far neither has suffered any visible damage from the lack of protein in their meatless diet (14 year old boy is nearly 6 foot tall these days), nor are they serial killers because I didn't spank them either.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Some people make a sport out of judging parental choices. Fortunately my kids are getting old enough that I can shrug off the comments, as so far neither has suffered any visible damage from the lack of protein in their meatless diet (14 year old boy is nearly 6 foot tall these days), nor are they serial killers because I didn't spank them either.


Me neither, but we did have house rules, guess we were lucky that the Amstrad didn't arrive on the scenes until mine were just into their teens but we were very selective with TVs they didn't have one in the bedroom we chose what they watched excetera excetera excetera


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2017)

DT said:


> Me neither, but we did have house rules, guess we were lucky that the Amstrad didn't arrive on the scenes until mine were just into their teens but we were very selective with TVs they didn't have one in the bedroom we chose what they watched excetera excetera excetera


OMG TVs in bedrooms is a huge pet peeve of mine! I refuse to have one in any bedroom. We're the weird family that only has one TV in the house and don't pay for cable TV.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

ouesi said:


> OMG TVs in bedrooms is a huge pet peeve of mine! I refuse to have one in any bedroom. We're the weird family that only has one TV in the house and don't pay for cable TV.


Us neither, and no tv subscriptions here either, gutted we even have to pay for BBC


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Speaking of cancer risk and trying to reduce it I wondered if you had heard of an enzyme called Vitalzym that breaks down the Fibrin which clots/tumours are made from? I've used it for dissolving fibroids and have heard of some who take it for prevention of clots and tumours. It isn't cheap though.
> 
> I knew tomatoes were meant to be good against cancers and I love chopped toms and tomato based soups and sauces anyway, didn't know about beans.. Any beans? or specific ones?
> 
> ...


No I haven't heard anything about the use of an enzyme called Vitalzym. I'm very interested in the work of this guy on angiogenesis which is basically preventing the blood supply to tumours

https://www.ted.com/talks/william_li?language=en

As far as beans are concerned - any will do, tins, dried, those pre cooked in a pouch. What about houmous with crackers and strips of veggies like carrots/cucumber/celery/peppers for finger food. Your curry sounds yummy.



MiffyMoo said:


> Ooh, my sister in law is Korean and she makes these amazing spring rolls, that are jammed full of mint. It actually makes it taste quite spicy. I can see if she'll give me the recipe, if you want


They sound lovely, I really like mint so yes if she would share the recipe I'd love it.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

KatieandOliver said:


> Yes, I don't really think like that, I was just winding up someone who was being unpleasant.


Tbf, I found your "who cares?" comment at the beginning of this thread to be dismissive and unpleasant - not to mention disrespectful - of people's opinions and legitimate concerns. As I believe was pointed out previously, just because it doesn't apply to you personally, doesn't mean other people feel the same, which the question "who cares?" implies, so perhaps certain pots should look in the mirror before taking it upon themselves to "wind up" other kitchen appliances who they think might be being unpleasant.

As for the thread, well, going veggie has made me more imaginative in the kitchen and added ingredients to my diet which I would never have considered when I had meat in my diet. I also find myself more curious about food as a whole.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

LinznMilly said:


> Tbf, I found your "who cares?" comment at the beginning of this thread to be dismissive and unpleasant - not to mention disrespectful - of people's opinions and legitimate concerns. As I believe was pointed out previously, just because it doesn't apply to you personally, doesn't mean other people feel the same, which the question "who cares?" implies, so perhaps certain pots should look in the mirror before taking it upon themselves to "wind up" other kitchen appliances who they think might be being unpleasant.
> 
> As for the thread, well, going veggie has made me more imaginative in the kitchen and added ingredients to my diet which I would never have considered when I had meat in my diet. I also find myself more curious about food as a whole.


Yes it was quite unpleasant  I'm sorry about that. I was not in a good place when I wrote it, but I still shouldn't have.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

KatieandOliver said:


> Yes it was quite unpleasant  I'm sorry about that. I was not in a good place when I wrote it, but I still shouldn't have.


Don't worry lovely. We do understand and will keep sending you virtual hugs until you can get out the other side


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Anyway back to the original topic, yes food prices have Risen sharply over the past year. but haven't they been kept relatively low for several years now? there have been several hefty Rises in other costs associated with production Gas, electricity, insurance ,rent, travel, vehicles, etc these have all increased alarmingly over the past four or five years yet still the manufacturers have kept the price of the end product low, maybe "artificially" low, perhaps brexit was the excuse they were all looking for!
I suspect brexit is going to be the excuse for many many things for many years to come!


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

DT said:


> Anyway back to the original topic, yes food prices have Risen sharply over the past year. but haven't they been kept relatively low for several years now? there have been several hefty Rises in other costs associated with production Gas, electricity, insurance ,rent, travel, vehicles, etc these have all increased alarmingly over the past four or five years yet still the manufacturers have kept the price of the end product low, maybe "artificially" low, perhaps brexit was the excuse they were all looking for!
> I suspect brexit is going to be the excuse for many many things for many years to come!


Speaking form the other side of the channel, we saw rip off artists at work when the Euro arrived they simply switched the sign on items from guilders or franc to euro in effect doubling the price. I understand that companies are worried about tax rises and import duty when transporting goods to the UK post Brexit so maybe they are raising prices now to avoid losses that they expect might come.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Or possibly they've realised that they've squeezed their producers til they squeaked too much and as too many are now committing suicide or just going out of business, the market has realised that they need to pay the producers a little more.............especially when they (producers) aren't being propped up by the tax payers.

It's a ruddy merry go round where the only winners are the rich and whatever happens, only the poor suffer. Nothing to do with Brexit, different parties and nothing us plebs can do about it but pay the price


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No I haven't heard anything about the use of an enzyme called Vitalzym. I'm very interested in the work of this guy on angiogenesis which is basically preventing the blood supply to tumours
> 
> https://www.ted.com/talks/william_li?language=en
> 
> As far as beans are concerned - any will do, tins, dried, those pre cooked in a pouch. What about houmous with crackers and strips of veggies like carrots/cucumber/celery/peppers for finger food. Your curry sounds yummy.


It wasn't bad though I've discovered I don't like chickpeas (whole) Don't mind them in hummous if there's another flavour too, like pepper or chilli. I just picked them out of the rest of the curry before I froze it...lol!

I do eat carrot sticks with a sweet chilli dip and toast a wholemeal pitta then cut it lengthways into strips (instead of breadsticks). Sometimes I have a few quorn cocktail sausages or abit of cheese with it.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> It wasn't bad though I've discovered I don't like chickpeas (whole) Don't mind them in hummous if there's another flavour too, like pepper or chilli. I just picked them out of the rest of the curry before I froze it...lol!
> 
> I do eat carrot sticks with a sweet chilli dip and toast a wholemeal pitta then cut it lengthways into strips (instead of breadsticks). Sometimes I have a few quorn cocktail sausages or abit of cheese with it.


I used to spray them with fry light and bake in the oven, they were my substitute for savories, but they dont store well they just go soft.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> It wasn't bad though I've discovered I don't like chickpeas (whole) Don't mind them in hummous if there's another flavour too, like pepper or chilli. I just picked them out of the rest of the curry before I froze it...lol!
> 
> I do eat carrot sticks with a sweet chilli dip and toast a wholemeal pitta then cut it lengthways into strips (instead of breadsticks). Sometimes I have a few quorn cocktail sausages or abit of cheese with it.


Oh I used used to ha e pitta bread out of the toaster, split and stuffed with red pepper houmous loads of small cherry tomatos sliced and a few slithers of wafer thin ham or crispy streaky bacon but dont eat it no more.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

I worry very much about the rising cost of food. I haven`t ate meat/fish/dairy products for many, many years, I generally don`t give myself the vegetarian/vegan label - I buy leather collars for my dog but I am finding my food bill is increasing regardless.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> Anyway back to the original topic, yes food prices have Risen sharply over the past year. but haven't they been kept relatively low for several years now? there have been several hefty Rises in other costs associated with production Gas, electricity, insurance ,rent, travel, vehicles, etc these have all increased alarmingly over the past four or five years yet still the manufacturers have kept the price of the end product low, maybe "artificially" low, perhaps brexit was the excuse they were all looking for!
> I suspect brexit is going to be the excuse for many many things for many years to come!


When everything you import, including 40% of our food, suddenly costs 15% more, it's quite a good excuse.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

DT said:


> Oh I used used to ha e pitta bread out of the toaster, split and stuffed with red pepper houmous loads of small cherry tomatos sliced and a few slithers of wafer thin ham or crispy streaky bacon but dont eat it no more.


That sounds nice, though I may add chicken. I'm trying to cut down on red meat and processed meats and stick to chicken, turkey and fish (white as don't like salmon or stuff like prawn/crab) Trying to find ways to make fish more appealing without it being covered in batter. sweet chilli sauce works for me. Also trying to have 4-5 meat free meals a week and save the roast chicken as my sunday luxury!

I try and eat more salads in summer though I'm not a big fan of lettuce I've started using bit of sweet chilli sauce rather than mayo so its lower in calories.I've kind of been focused on foods and supplements that help inflammation after my leg swelled up and taking turmeric daily as helped as well as adding it into food like turmeric chips, adding into rice and pasta water. I was already on the Vitalzym supplement for fibroids which GP thinks may have helped prevent a clot from forming and my leg has gone back down eventually. They checked for a clot just in case but it came back negative and seems it was just a severe allergic reaction. It was a wake up call anyway I was getting too lazy, back on the bike to work through summer and myself and my cousin are attempting the Couch to 5K together!

Back to food though I have found it more expensive to buy all fresh salad, veg and fruit. Though can save some if get all veg frozen from somewhere cheap like Farmfoods or something. I am more aware of where food is coming from so look for organic chicken even though it cost more I just buy an whole one so it makes more than one meal and trying to come up with meat free meals for rest of week. At the minute I can afford to do this but it would only take a combination of the business I'm working at having to shut down and me not being able to find another job and food prices going up steeply for everything to change!

Then of course there's the many already living on the breadline and using soup kitchen, food banks and community kitchens to survive and feed their families, who we should care about if we have any heart and compassion for other humans! With zero hours contracts too and people getting sanctioned if they don't take jobs much more of the population is going to be in this position if food (and utility) prices rise steeply in the future. It only needs a really severely cold winter (particuarly cos UK is not used to it like some other countries) for alot of pensioners, disabled and those having to make the decision between heat or eat for many to suffer or even die from pneumonia or starvation. It's not just Brexit really it's a combination of govt taking stuff away, A & E's closing and hospital dept being privatised, very little new social or affordable housing being built, councils charging to help pensioners up off floor if they fall, (£26 I think it was!) care budgets cut for community nurses, winter fuel payments scrapped and/or reduced combined with electric going up in peak times once every one has smart meters etc It's like the govt are attacking from ALL ends to rid the country of the working classes and those who are old, ill or disabled. At this rate the UK will end up like some other countries where there are some areas that are like third world countries and slums and other areas where only the very rich live!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> When everything you import, including 40% of our food, suddenly costs 15% more, it's quite a good excuse.


You miss the point. When we leave the EU we have the rest of the world to buy food from without the high EU tariffs on them. So that 40% figure is inconsequential.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Dr Pepper said:


> You miss the point. When we leave the EU we have the rest of the world to buy food from without the high EU tariffs on them. So that 40% figure is inconsequential.


It won't stop some businesses still putting prices up and blaming Brexit though!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Phoenix Rising said:


> It won't stop some businesses still putting prices up and blaming Brexit though!


Well it'll have to be all businesses or none. You won't find Tesco putting their prices up and blaming Brexit while Sainsbury's, Aldi, Morrison's etc don't.

The most current threat to price increases is Tesco buying Booker's.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

What about individual businesses like a small butchers? They're not going to sell hormone injected beef from Iowa if they know no-one will want it..and if getting meat from good (and safe) sources gets more expensive for them then surely they're going to pass on the price increase to the customer, just to break even? 

Those that can afford, will source the better stuff, those that can't will have to choose to either not buy meat or buy cheap meat from US and China etc and hope it's fit for human consumption, cos if they get sick after all NHS has been privatised and we're having to get Insurance for medical treatment, they're not going to be able to afford the medical bills if they couldn't afford a cut of safe organic meat are they?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Phoenix Rising said:


> What about individual businesses like a small butchers? They're not going to sell hormone injected beef from Iowa if they know no-one will want it..and if getting meat from good (and safe) sources gets more expensive for them then surely they're going to pass on the price increase to the customer, just to break even?
> 
> Those that can afford, will source the better stuff, those that can't will have to choose to either not buy meat or buy cheap meat from US and China etc and hope it's fit for human consumption, cos if they get sick after all NHS has been privatised and we're having to get Insurance for medical treatment, they're not going to be able to afford the medical bills if they couldn't afford a cut of safe organic meat are they?


Well, it's not like we've never had dodgy meat sold to us whilst in the EU, is it? Horse meat scandal ring any bells?

And how on earth have you suddenly decided that the NHS is going to be privatised and we're all going to need insurance? You really do make things up as you go, don't you?


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

We're all doomed, I say, doomed


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> And how on earth have you suddenly decided that the NHS is going to be privatised and we're all going to need insurance? You really do make things up as you go, don't you?


It's one of the few main potential bargaining chips in the trade negotiations with the US. Theresa May and co. are refusing to rule it out, too.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Every thread now seems to turn into a recipe book...why is that?


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> Well, it's not like we've never had dodgy meat sold to us whilst in the EU, is it? Horse meat scandal ring any bells?
> 
> And how on earth have you suddenly decided that the NHS is going to be privatised and we're all going to need insurance? You really do make things up as you go, don't you?


lol! no but have you seen the reports of all the A & E's closing and parts being sold off? Richard Branson has thrown an hissy fit cos he didn't win a bid for something and is suing the NHS. Think the contract was for £82m not sure how much he'd get if he won but if it's that amount or more, just think how many A & E's that money would have saved,, how many more nurses it would have employed or treatments/operations for people who've been waiting years! Instead money will be taken from all those things to find the money to pay him if he wins his case!

There was this:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...tisation-biggest-history-staffordshire-cancer

Some news say it was suspended, others say it has just being 'hushed up' to prevent protests etc so they can slip it through unchallenged, when everyone's attention has been diverted elsewhere. They're also selling off buildings and less used services.

List of A & E's marked for closure

https://inews.co.uk/nhs/full-list-24-aes-marked-closure/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Calvine said:


> Every thread now seems to turn into a recipe book...why is that?


Perhaps because its a thread equally about Brexit and food. As far as I can see this is the only thread at the moment on the first page of general chat


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> It's one of the few main potential bargaining chips in the trade negotiations with the US. Theresa May and co. are refusing to rule it out, too.


I haven't heard that, can you post a source?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Phoenix Rising said:


> lol! no but have you seen the reports of all the A & E's closing and parts being sold off? Richard Branson has thrown an hissy fit cos he didn't win a bid for something and is suing the NHS. Think the contract was for £82m not sure how much he'd get if he won but if it's that amount or more, just think how many A & E's that money would have saved,, how many more nurses it would have employed or treatments/operations for people who've been waiting years! Instead money will be taken from all those things to find the money to pay him if he wins his case!
> 
> There was this:
> 
> ...


So where does any of that point to the government pulling funding and making everyone take out insurance?


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Phoenix Rising said:


> to find the money to pay him if he wins his case!


Like he really needs the money; he's so hard up...let's have a whip-round on PF for him. I'd hate to think of him having to use a food bank.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> What about individual businesses like a small butchers? They're not going to sell hormone injected beef from Iowa if they know no-one will want it..and if getting meat from good (and safe) sources gets more expensive for them then surely they're going to pass on the price increase to the customer, just to break even?
> 
> Those that can afford, will source the better stuff, those that can't will have to choose to either not buy meat or buy cheap meat from US and China etc and hope it's fit for human consumption, cos if they get sick after all NHS has been privatised and we're having to get Insurance for medical treatment, they're not going to be able to afford the medical bills if they couldn't afford a cut of safe organic meat are they?


Maybe we will see a revival in our own farming industry, we can all hope and pray that our dairy farmers can be saved, but you know what! Id willingly pay double of even treble for my milk! If only for the sake of the animals, I wont but cheap now, id rather go without !

And we have very close ties to several farming families, our closest friends and neighbours being farmers. And you know what they haven't farmed now for two years, apart from a couple of rape fields.
They rent out most of their land have a farm shop and many commercial units they are building on. And you know what we are being continuingly told farmers want to remain in the eu, in wales maybe they do be of we know personally we don't know any who do and believe you me it was a hot topic here for many months that year,


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

MiffyMoo said:


> So where does any of that point to the government pulling funding and making everyone take out insurance?


Surely we'd be naive to believe that US companies taking over the NHS wouldn't at some point in the future result in our medical system ending up very similar to theirs?? We all know the Tories like bribes if it means more money for their lavish lifestyles, you think they wouldn't allow it, if the US offered more money to our govt in exchange for them owning our NHS? If she's willing to team up with terrorists just to stay in Govt she's not gonna hesitate to handover the NHS if it means she gets more money/power/stays in govt longer!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Calvine said:


> Like he really needs the money; he's so hard up...let's have a whip-round on PF for him. I'd hate to think of him having to use a food bank.


Richard branson needs to find a hobby! Cant stand the man, and I really used to admire him


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

DT said:


> Richard branson needs to find a hobby


You mean, as well as making money?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Every thread now seems to turn into a recipe book...why is that?


Yeah, you're right.

The EU referendum/Brexit thread...

A recipe for disaster.:Wacky


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Yeah, you're right.
> 
> The EU referendum/Brexit thread...
> 
> A recipe for disaster.:Wacky


Groan!!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Groan!!


Indigestion?

Well be very careful what you're taking for it.

A close friend of ours has just passed away after taking a remedy for his indigestion and heartburn

We just can't believe Gaviscon.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> That sounds nice, though I may add chicken. I'm trying to cut down on red meat and processed meats and stick to chicken, turkey and fish (white as don't like salmon or stuff like prawn/crab) Trying to find ways to make fish more appealing without it being covered in batter. sweet chilli sauce works for me. Also trying to have 4-5 meat free meals a week and save the roast chicken as my sunday luxury!
> !


I don't eat that anymore, but I eat lots of fish, unlike you I really like shellfish, especially crab and the large prawns.
My favourite fish of all time was orange roughy used to buy it in wait rose but they don't have it any more, never seem it anywhere else in the uk. I believe it's from austraillia or somewhere like, and dispite wait roses hefty price tag was a reletivly inexpensive fish that was not really very desirable so it seems, a bit of a murky story?? Anyway apart from that I enjoy both sea bream and sea bass, you can get some great ideas on line with serving ideas, I.e chilli, olives, coups cous etc, and they have been fashionable in restruants for some time now so often looking at how they serve them can give you new ideas.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

DT said:


> I don't eat that anymore, but I eat lots of fish, unlike you I really like shellfish, especially crab and the large prawns.
> My favourite fish of all time was orange roughy used to buy it in wait rose but they don't have it any more, never seem it anywhere else in the uk. I believe it's from austraillia or somewhere like, and dispite wait roses hefty price tag was a reletivly inexpensive fish that was not really very desirable so it seems, a bit of a murky story?? Anyway apart from that I enjoy both sea bream and sea bass, you can get some great ideas on line with serving ideas, I.e chilli, olives, coups cous etc, and they have been fashionable in restruants for some time now so often looking at how they serve them can give you new ideas.


Ahh, the poor delicious roughy. We were in the process of fishing them out of existence until somebody realised how long they live; up to 140 years old. A consequence of that is that they don't reach sexual maturity until their mid 20's and we eat them before they get a chance to breed. Good news is that stocks are rising again and there are several certified sustainable fisheries. So, I expect they will make a comeback over here too albeit not so cheaply.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> You miss the point. When we leave the EU we have the rest of the world to buy food from without the high EU tariffs on them. So that 40% figure is inconsequential.


Inconsequential?

When we leave the EU we will not have agreed trade deals with the rest of the world. We have to negotiate them. This won't happen overnight, and there is no guarantee that we will reach better deals than we have now.

We may well have to pay tariffs on the food we trade within the EU. This _will_ happen overnight, and long before we negotiate any other deals.

And the pound has fallen against not only the dollar and the euro. Whatever food we import is more expensive than it was last year, and when the pound falls further - and it will - they will be even more expensive.

Food prices have risen and will rise further because of Brexit.

Inconsequential! Good grief.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I haven't heard that, can you post a source?


Is Google broken or something?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Surely we'd be naive to believe that US companies taking over the NHS wouldn't at some point in the future result in our medical system ending up very similar to theirs?? We all know the Tories like bribes if it means more money for their lavish lifestyles, you think they wouldn't allow it, if the US offered more money to our govt in exchange for them owning our NHS? If she's willing to team up with terrorists just to stay in Govt she's not gonna hesitate to handover the NHS if it means she gets more money/power/stays in govt longer!


Hahaha, did you read what you wrote before you posted? She's not stupid enough to make everyone pay for their medical treatment expect to get voted back in. And you may want to brush up on who the terrorist sympathisers are, because Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott really win that one hands down.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> Is Google broken or something?


Yup


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> Hahaha, did you read what you wrote before you posted? She's not stupid enough to make everyone pay for their medical treatment expect to get voted back in. And you may want to brush up on who the terrorist sympathisers are, because Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott really win that one hands down.


Especially mcdonnell


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Inconsequential?
> 
> When we leave the EU we will not have agreed trade deals with the rest of the world. We have to negotiate them. This won't happen overnight, and there is no guarantee that we will reach better deals than we have now.
> 
> ...


OK, if you say so. I'm not getting on this roundabout again.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> Inconsequential?
> 
> When we leave the EU we will not have agreed trade deals with the rest of the world. We have to negotiate them. This won't happen overnight, and there is no guarantee that we will reach better deals than we have now.
> 
> ...


Well maybe that's the price we have to pay for release from a club that is broken!
We may have a hard time initially, but so what! Id eat grass to escape the eu chains!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Supermarkets will use any excuse to sting suppliers and customers and it'll be Brexit even though terms aren't even agreed. They assume they have a captive market. I use them for a third of my shopping at most, less if I can.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> Supermarkets will use any excuse to sting suppliers and customers and it'll be Brexit even though terms aren't even agreed. They assume they have a captive market. I use them for a third of my shopping at most, less if I can.


My local butcher sells local meat, eggs and whatever veggies happen to be sent to them. They also have homemade chutneys etc, and a guy down the road sells his homemade honey via a little table outside his kitchen window. It's all a little more expensive than the supermarket, so I can't afford it often, but I do when I can


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Who remembers the UK prior to us joining the EU?
Can anyone remember the butter, cheese and corn mountains ? stored in Europe. commodities that manufacturers were paid to produce yet there was no market for. What private business would run like this?
How farmers here in the uk were told to setaside land because we were producing too much! basically farmers were paid to not Farm the land or produce, bizarre , what sort of private business would run like this?
Now do you want the latest? farmers in the UK have been told they HAVE to grow beans yes beans, why is that? because beans are not a valuable crop and no one wants to grow them so why are farmers being made to do this? 
My country, my land, my choice!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> OK, if you say so. I'm not getting on this roundabout again.


You get right back on that roundabout!
There are enough of us to keep it spinning


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

And why has there a cod shortage in the uk?
Has it been over fished?
If so by whom?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> My local butcher sells local meat, eggs and whatever veggies happen to be sent to them. They also have homemade chutneys etc, and a guy down the road sells his homemade honey via a little table outside his kitchen window. It's all a little more expensive than the supermarket, so I can't afford it often, but I do when I can


My local butcher is no more expensive then the supermarkets, eggs I can pick up free range from a number of neighbours for £2 a dozen , and that's proper freerange, that price hasnt altered in several years. But if worse come to worse aldi sell a dozen free range for less then two quid!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> And why has there a cod shortage in the uk?
> Has it been over fished?
> If so by whom?


So why don't you actually say and provide facts and figures? Maybe you haven't noticed but cod numbers are actually increasing thanks to EU policies. Maybe you provide evidence to counter http://theconversation.com/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry-56312

Or is this yet another example of inuendo, propaganda and slogans not backed by reality.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Hahaha, did you read what you wrote before you posted? She's not stupid enough to make everyone pay for their medical treatment expect to get voted back in. And you may want to brush up on who the terrorist sympathisers are, because Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott really win that one hands down.


I can't believe you can be so naïve when it should now be blatantly obvious to all that the tories are deliberately trashing our NHS. The principles of our NHS are at odds with the free market ideology of the tory party, why do you think Cameron wouldn't exempt it from TTIP? or May from any trade deal with the US?

So Corbyn & co win it hands down even though the tories have formed a government with a bunch of extremists? lol Even though they deal arms to depots who fuel & fund terrorism? hmm ok.

Climate change is the greatest danger we are facing - yet we have a government putting the future of our living planet at stake for greed. A truly sinister & dangerous government is one that refuses to take_ this_ seriously.

*When Will Earth Be Too Hot For Humans? Sooner Than You Think.*

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Get ready because food prices are set to soar as hard brexit approaches. http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...-prices-set-to-soar-as-hard-brexit-approaches


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> Yep. Gave noush it and she loves it
> Xxxx
> Its basically, spuds, carrot, spring onions and sweetcorn vegetable stock cube and if not a veggie milk, ill check the recipe and confirm quantities as not made it for a couple of months. But it's really tasty and really filling to xx


I can confirm, this simple soup is delicious!:Hungry My hubby loves it too.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://www.politics.co.uk/reference/common-fisheries-policy

"The CFP imposes a regime of equal access for vessels from all member states in the EU's exclusive fishing zone, 200 nautical miles from its coastline. Within this zone, member states have a 12-mile zone around their own coastlines within which their own fishing vessels have exclusive rights.

The basic principle of the earliest common agreement on fisheries policy, reached in 1970, was that community fishermen should have equal access to member states' water sources. As a natural and mobile resource, fish were deemed to be the common property of all EU member states

The reviews of 1992 and 2002 have seen increasingly stringent Quotas for UK fishing, focused primarily on the most depleted stocks. The state of cod stocks in the Irish and North Sea have been particularly worrying, having been reduced almost to unsustainable levels.

Quota Hopping' has also received considerable attention: this practice involves one member state's Quota being 'used up' by vessels sailing under flags of convenience, flagged to the Quota's member state but owned by companies from another member state.

One particularly controversial dispute concerned the operation and legality of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 part II, which resulted in 95 Spanish vessels losing their UK fishing licences. The case, better known as the Factortame dispute, resulted in protracted litigation in the British and EU courts and the EU making a groundbreaking declaration of EU legal primacy - thus revising the traditional notion of legal sovereignty in the UK.

It was also found that some vessels were using illegally small nets, thereby catching and killing juvenile fish, seriously undermining the resilience of populations."

In 2011 the government managed to save our fishing fleet by negotiating bigger quotas for certain fish, while at the same time asking for more protection for a few other species


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> The reviews of 1992 and 2002 have seen increasingly stringent Quotas for UK fishing, focused primarily on the most depleted stocks. The state of cod stocks in the Irish and North Sea have been particularly worrying, having been reduced almost to unsustainable levels.


What a shock.. Less fish, less fishing allowed. So Rona, what about current stock levels? http://www.fishingforthetruth.co.uk/north-sea-cod-fish-stocks-healthy-too Are you saying that EU policy isn't working. What is the UK doing to ensure fish stocks continue to rise and what are they putting in place instead of the EU to determine and police good practice? In general can you explain how leaving helps anything?



> Quota Hopping' has also received considerable attention: this practice involves one member state's Quota being 'used up' by vessels sailing under flags of convenience, flagged to the Quota's member state but owned by companies from another member state.


Something which the EU doesn't interfere with as it is up to each country to run itself. Each country retains it's sovereignty.



> In 2011 the government managed to save our fishing fleet by negotiating bigger quotas for certain fish, while at the same time asking for more protection for a few other species


Whilst giving large portions of that quota to foreign vessels for some strange reason. Why not save the "fishing fleet" by giving the quota to UK vessels? The UK quota has also been increasing and is now the 2nd largest in the EU. So much for the UK not being able to change things within the EU. Then again how many meetings did Farage attend when he was responsible for representing UK fishing within the EU?



> One particularly controversial dispute concerned the operation and legality of the Merchant Shipping Act 1988 part II, which resulted in 95 Spanish vessels losing their UK fishing licences. The case, better known as the Factortame dispute, resulted in protracted litigation in the British and EU courts and the EU making a groundbreaking declaration of EU legal primacy - thus revising the traditional notion of legal sovereignty in the UK.


Wasn't this principly about discrimination? There are some principles which the EU ensures all countries agree to follow. Discrimination for example is frowned upon, only have to look at the rules about expats to appreciate that, the fact expats can not be discriminated against.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> Get ready because food prices are set to soar as hard brexit approaches. http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...-prices-set-to-soar-as-hard-brexit-approaches
> 
> View attachment 317515


What do they mean exactly by 'Hard Brexit' and 'Soft Brexit'? I thought it was just a case of leave the EU or don't leave?


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

DT said:


> You get right back on that roundabout!
> There are enough of us to keep it spinning


Nope, I've drawn a line under it


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Phoenix Rising said:


> What do they mean exactly by 'Hard Brexit' and 'Soft Brexit'? I thought it was just a case of leave the EU or don't leave?


You thought correctly. Soft Brexit means don't leave. Hard Brexit has no meaning but is used by liars to mean leave.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> Now do you want the latest? farmers in the UK have been told they HAVE to grow beans yes beans, why is that? because beans are not a valuable crop and no one wants to grow them so why are farmers being made to do this?


Do you have a source for this? I can find no mention of it, but I'm probably looking in the wrong place.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> You thought correctly. Soft Brexit means don't leave. Hard Brexit has no meaning but is used by liars to mean leave.


Sorry, that's nonsense.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

DT said:


> I really used to admire him


Me too; I genuinely thought he was a working class boy who had made it...but his family is pretty well loaded I read. Is father a judge or some such?


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> What do they mean exactly by 'Hard Brexit' and 'Soft Brexit'? I thought it was just a case of leave the EU or don't leave?


Define leave the EU. The definition of leave wasn't defined by the leave campaign. This from a leave site: http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

So as well as potential tariffs on food, you have more red tape and more costs outside of tariffs. Should be noted that this isn't limited to end product but ingredients as well.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> What do they mean exactly by 'Hard Brexit' and 'Soft Brexit'? I thought it was just a case of leave the EU or don't leave?


No-one really knows as it's politic speak, but as far as I can tell it's mainly a matter of how hard we want to make life for ourselves immediately following Brexit.

A 'soft' Brexit is usually taken to mean that we would leave the EU, but reach an agreement to retain access to some of the other separate European agreements such as the Customs Union and/or the Free Trade area etc. This would cost money, but reduce the number of hoops to jump through when trading with the EU and the rest of the world.

A 'hard' Brexit means leaving not only the EU, but all the other European agreements too (with or without a trade deal depends on how hardcore a particular Brexiteer is). That means if a business wants to trade with the EU it still has to produce their goods to meet EU standards, but every export also has to go through external customs testing and lot sof extra beurocracy, which for certain exports can delay the shipment for several weeks. Livestock and pet quarantine would return, too, as we'd no longer be part of the animal Passports agreements. Imports undergo the same process, so ordering from overseas and receiving your shipment within a few days could largely become a thing of the past immediately post-Brexit, particularly with non-EU countries, as we can't even begin talks with them until after Brexit and these things take years to negotiate. I suspect it would largely be up to the UK businesses to bear the costs of this without passing them on to their customers if they want to remain competitive overseas.

It's a lot more complicated than that in reality, of course, but that's generally what I understand people think those terms to mean.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> Do you have a source for this? I can find no mention of it, but I'm probably looking in the wrong place.


TBH Arnie I dont have a clue, we had farming friends over the other day, he and other half were playing pool and I only picked up half a conversations as us girlies were otherwise engaged, they were rabbiting on about beans though, (for thirty odd years prior to us having our own business other half was working in agriculture, shock horror, and is still in contact with many farmers)

So to cut a long story short I asked last night was it was all about, all he said was didnt know a lot about it.

Im the worlds worse at finding facts as you know, I leave that to the clever people
 me bad.
But dunno if this is anything to do with it?

http://www.bepa.co.uk/

Slinks off to stand in norty corner


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

DT said:


> Who remembers the UK prior to us joining the EU?
> Can anyone remember the butter, cheese and corn mountains ? stored in Europe. commodities that manufacturers were paid to produce yet there was no market for. What private business would run like this?
> How farmers here in the uk were told to setaside land because we were producing too much! basically farmers were paid to not Farm the land or produce, bizarre , what sort of private business would run like this?
> Now do you want the latest? farmers in the UK have been told they HAVE to grow beans yes beans, why is that? because beans are not a valuable crop and no one wants to grow them so why are farmers being made to do this?
> My country, my land, my choice!


That's interesting. A large field used for crop growing near where I used to live had beans planted in 2015. The entire crop, over perhaps 20 or 30 acres, wasn't harvested and just rotted away. Why was that?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> That's interesting. A large field used for crop growing near where I used to live had beans planted in 2015. The entire crop, over perhaps 20 or 30 acres, wasn't harvested and just rotted away. Why was that?


we have seen that too, and they stank, like cabbages. As I said in all honesty I only heard half the story.


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Arnie83 said:


> Do you have a source for this? I can find no mention of it, but I'm probably looking in the wrong place.


I have no source (I haven't looked for any) but I saw this happen with my own eyes. Us locals were perplexed. The only reasonable explanation that someone came up with was that it was used to fertilise the ground it had been planted on. Very odd it were.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Just ask other half again, he said it's now, this year, the farmer I am referring to doesn't have to grow many as they are not that large, but that they all have to grow them??


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Nothing is stated as fixed and a legal requirement for farming. It revolves around subsidies. There was something about land should be set aside to support wildlife. This is turn was watered down to include the ability to plant nitrogen fixing crops (improve soil quality) which is probably where beans comes in. Government could have enforced any rules it liked but prefered to keep UK farmers on a level playing field. So beans count as land put aside for wildlife to fulfil requirements for subsidy. Nobody is "forced" to grow beans.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> we have seen that too, and they stank, like cabbages. As I said in all honesty I only heard half the story.





samuelsmiles said:


> I have no source (I haven't looked for any) but I saw this happen with my own eyes. Us locals were perplexed. The only reasonable explanation that someone came up with was that it was used to fertilise the ground it had been planted on. Very odd it were.


I think its broad beans that can be grown for green manure, I think they are good for breaking up heavy soil & fixing in nitrogen.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> No-one really knows as it's politic speak, but as far as I can tell it's mainly a matter of how hard we want to make life for ourselves immediately following Brexit.
> 
> A 'soft' Brexit is usually taken to mean that we would leave the EU, but reach an agreement to retain access to some of the other separate European agreements such as the Customs Union and/or the Free Trade area etc. This would cost money, but reduce the number of hoops to jump through when trading with the EU and the rest of the world.
> 
> ...


Thanks,someone posted on FB a thing about flights, Ryanair relocating to EU and british airports closing. Don't know if it's just that company and why flights to other non-EU couldn't continue???

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ichael-oleary-discuss-brexit-effect-aviation/

But never thought about impact on things like short breaks to Europe and stuff. Been on a few of them.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> TBH Arnie I dont have a clue, we had farming friends over the other day, he and other half were playing pool and I only picked up half a conversations as us girlies were otherwise engaged, they were rabbiting on about beans though, (for thirty odd years prior to us having our own business other half was working in agriculture, shock horror, and is still in contact with many farmers)
> 
> So to cut a long story short I asked last night was it was all about, all he said was didnt know a lot about it.
> 
> ...


From what others have said, it would appear a bit different from what you suggested.

Not having a go, but I think that has been the case with so many things EU-related over the years. It's all too late now of course, but I wonder how many misunderstandings and downright lies (the latter mostly in the press) have led to statements like ...


DT said:


> Now do you want the latest? farmers in the UK have been told they HAVE to grow beans yes beans


And thence to reactions like ...


DT said:


> My country, my land, my choice!


and ...


DT said:


> We may have a hard time initially, but so what! Id eat grass to escape the eu chains!


It's why I always thought the referendum was an awful idea and that we should leave such vitally important decisions to people who have the time and opportunity to research facts before reaching conclusions based upon them; those people being the moderate MPs, most of whom supported Remain.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Nothing is stated as fixed and a legal requirement for farming. It revolves around subsidies. There was something about land should be set aside to support wildlife. This is turn was watered down to include the ability to plant nitrogen fixing crops (improve soil quality) which is probably where beans comes in. Government could have enforced any rules it liked but prefered to keep UK farmers on a level playing field. So beans count as land put aside for wildlife to fulfil requirements for subsidy. Nobody is "forced" to grow beans.


Maybe not now, but set aside initially was not for wildlife, it was because too much was grown, we used to be paid per acre for not farming the land 10% is was, and after strawson I am talking a very large farm in notts/lincs and it was all arable. so that was some acreage. I started working for myself in 2004 and it was still going strong then . Ok you may said but the land needs resting but I thought thats what rotation was

How many jobs are there available when you are paid not to produce anything can you think of any?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> From what others have said, it would appear a bit different from what you suggested.
> 
> Not having a go, but I think that has been the case with so many things EU-related over the years. It's all too late now of course, but I wonder how many misunderstandings and downright lies (the latter mostly in the press) have led to statements like ...
> 
> ...


Not really bothered what others say arnie tbh, especially on here, there will be something too it!


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Thanks,someone posted on FB a thing about flights, Ryanair relocating to EU and british airports closing. Don't know if it's just that company and why flights to other non-EU couldn't continue???
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ichael-oleary-discuss-brexit-effect-aviation/
> 
> But never thought about impact on things like short breaks to Europe and stuff. Been on a few of them.


I believe it's to do with the EU 'Open Skies' agreement. Brokered 25 years ago, it allows any EU airline to travel freely between any two airports in the EU. Ryanair and budget carriers like them account for most EU internal traffic, not the big national carriers. Therefore if Ryanair wants to survive as a business and we don't reach an agreement on Open Skies, it will need to relocate to the EU.

A side effect of that would be they and other companies who made the move could no longer offer internal flights in the UK, so many of the options for flying between UK cities would be no more. Back to ferries to NI and trains to Scotland, basically.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Maybe not now, but set aside initially was not for wildlife, it was because too much was grown, we used to be paid per acre for not farming the land 10% is was, and after strawson I am talking a very large farm in notts/lincs and it was all arable. so that was some acreage. I started working for myself in 2004 and it was still going strong then . Ok you may said but the land needs resting but I thought thats what rotation was
> 
> How many jobs are there available when you are paid not to produce anything can you think of any?


I remember the butter mountain etc but strangely haven't heard of them for the past "few" years. Why is that? Has this anything to do with your false statement about HAVING to grow beans? Times and rules change which is good. Contributing to change is also good. Shame we are sticking our heads in the sand instead.


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

I just found this on another forum regarding growing beans and how they are harvested. Maybe this was what happened where I was.

_"We regularly grew Field Beans which look like broad beans on the family farm.

They are harvested when they are dried, the pods blacken naturally and begin to shrivel - yes they do look burnt, but they're not. The pods turn black as they dry.

They will soon be harvested with the combine harvester - the dried beans will go through a series of riddlers (shaking sieves) in the combine harvester to separate them from the bits of pod, stalk and leaf (haulms).

The dried Field Beans go to the millers to be ground down to a flour and added to animal feed - they are high in protein. The haulms are usually baled and they go for winter stock feed a bit like hay. My herd of dairy goats ate a lot of bean straw in the winter as they need a lot of roughage."

Broad bean burn?

_


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> I remember the butter mountain etc but strangely haven't heard of them for the past "few" years. Why is that? Has this anything to do with your false statement about HAVING to grow beans?


A FARMER told us, when I find out exactly why I will if I feel like it report to you! NOT


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

So Ryanair's reason for staying in the Eu is because the French and Germans like to take any opportunity to stick one to the British? 

I thought it was the leavers who were xenophobes?

The remain camp did a better job of persuading people to vote leave than the leave camp did.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> I just found this on another forum regarding growing beans and how they are harvested. Maybe this was what happened where I was.
> 
> _"We regularly grew Field Beans which look like broad beans on the family farm.
> 
> ...


Other half just told me lots of beans go black before harvesting, but best not say now following the bean growing he told me of.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Back to the beans
Dont know if this is anything to do with it

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...on_cultivation,_production_and_economic_value


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> So Ryanair's reason for staying in the Eu is because the French and Germans like to take any opportunity to stick one to the British?


Where do you get that from? Rules existed when UK was part of the EU and wasn't leaving. UK had a part in creating those rules. We are the one leaving the framework so if anyone is "sticking it to the British" it is ourselves.

To fly places you need air operator certificates. EU limits flights "within" the EU to companies which are EU/EEA based (50.1% EU/EEA shareholders). That rule will not directly affect UK - EU after brexit. However many firms have routes which require that capability. If a company shareholders are currently UK based, leaving means that requirement is not matched which I believe is the problem for Ryanair.

Then you have things like the US-EU open skies policy (any airline in the EU to fly to any point in the US and vice versa). Once we leave the EU that policy no longer applies to us, will need a replacement. Should be no problem but should does not mean guaranteed.



DT said:


> A FARMER told us, when I find out exactly why I will if I feel like it report to you! NOT





DT said:


> Back to the beans
> Dont know if this is anything to do with it
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...on_cultivation,_production_and_economic_value


Oh look from your own link:


> This is largely a result of the new Common agricultural policy (CAP) greening measures. The new CAP introduced the *green direct payment scheme*, which began to be implemented in 2015. In particular, nitrogen-fixing crops (such as dry pulses) are *one of the options* available for implementing the ecological focus areas


So nothing to do with HAVING to even if you did hear it from a farmer.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Let's have a quick look at ecological focus areas...https://ec.europa.eu/info/news/ecol...potential-helping-biodiversity-2017-mar-29_en



> EFAs can take various forms, and it is *up to national authorities to decide which ones are best suited to circumstances of each EU country*. Farmers can then choose from their national list which EFA types to adopt on their land. EFAs can be features such as fallow land, field margins, hedges and trees or buffer strips which benefit biodiversity directly; they can also include specific productive areas whose effect on biodiversity is indirect through a lower use of inputs such as fertilizers.
> 
> The report shows that the most common forms of EFA chosen by farmers are those considered 'productive' - i.e. where land is sown with 'nitrogen-fixing' crops such as alfalfa (that help improve the nitrogen content of the soil and reduce the need for fertiliser), or catch crops (fast-growing crops grown between plantings of main crops which catch excessive nitrates). The other most popular form of EFA is where the land lies fallow.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Jesthar said:


> I believe it's to do with the EU 'Open Skies' agreement. Brokered 25 years ago, it allows any EU airline to travel freely between any two airports in the EU. Ryanair and budget carriers like them account for most EU internal traffic, not the big national carriers. Therefore if Ryanair wants to survive as a business and we don't reach an agreement on Open Skies, it will need to relocate to the EU.
> 
> A side effect of that would be they and other companies who made the move could no longer offer internal flights in the UK, so many of the options for flying between UK cities would be no more. Back to ferries to NI and trains to Scotland, basically.


I get why we wouldn't be able to fly between europe and UK if they didn't come to an agreement, but makes no sense that a plane can't gofrom London to Scotland or Northern Ireland if they would still be part of UK? I get that Rep of Ireland maybe classed as another country under Brexit and flights might stop to there if they had a seperate option to stay in EU and chose to.but surely NI, Scotland and Wales will still be part of this country? and what about the little islands surrounding like Hebrides, Jersey, Isle of man/Wight etc? (for those that have airports now)


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Where do you get that from? Rules existed when UK was part of the EU and wasn't leaving. UK had a part in creating those rules. We are the one leaving the framework so if anyone is "sticking it to the British" it is ourselves.
> .


From the Telegraph article Phoenix Rising linked ^ there. And I quote:

'Mr O'Leary (Ryanair) said, "I think that's an impossibility because there is no goodwill in Europe towards Britain.

"The French and the Germans, when they have the opportunity to stick one into the British, they like nothing better."

"This is going to be a real mess," Mr O'Leary said, before adding, "Brexit will be one of the great economic suicide notes in history."'

To me that says Leave in capital letters. Why would anyone want to stay in a relationship with someone who wants to treat you like that? Imo a lot of the Remain campaign was giving reasons to leave. I groaned inwardly every time I saw it and it still continues.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Elles said:


> "This is going to be a real mess," Mr O'Leary said, before adding, "*Brexit will be one of the great economic suicide notes in history*."'.


Why would we want to stay? I think the quote in bold highlights why!


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> 'Mr O'Leary (Ryanair) said, "I think that's an impossibility because there is no goodwill in Europe towards Britain.
> 
> "The French and the Germans, when they have the opportunity to stick one into the British, they like nothing better."


Ah so opinion rather than based in facts then. Repeating something again and again doesn't make it true. Do agree Remain campaign was a joke but then I don't think Cameron and henchman took it seriously.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

cbcdesign said:


> Why would we want to stay? I think the quote in bold highlights why!


But it doesn't. If you take the whole quote it says that we are in an abusive relationship with countries that hate us, but it would be suicide to leave. If I wanted to leave, I'd be even more determined. Stick one up to me will you indeed? Threaten me will you? Suicide? Sensible more like.

The quote is from a successful businessman who wanted us to stay in the Eu and went out campaigning with his Remain rosettes. I fear his attitude and that of others like him did more harm than good to the Eu cause. We're leaving the Eu, aren't we.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Ah so opinion rather than based in facts then. Repeating something again and again doesn't make it true. Do agree Remain campaign was a joke but then I don't think Cameron and henchman took it seriously.


Eh? I posted what the Ryanair chappie had said, you asked me where I got it. I told you the link and copy pasted the quote. What has that got to do with opinion? It's a fact that he said it, unless the telegraph made it up.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> But it doesn't. If you take the whole quote it says that we are in an abusive relationship with countries that hate us, but it would be suicide to leave. If I wanted to leave, I'd be even more determined. Stick one up to me will you indeed? Threaten me will you? Suicide? Sensible more like.
> 
> The quote is from a successful businessman who wanted us to stay in the Eu and went out campaigning with his Remain rosettes. I fear his attitude and that of others like him did more harm than good to the Eu cause. We're leaving the Eu, aren't we.


Don't see anything about abusive relationship there. Facts indicate the opposite. EU bent over backwards frequently to accomodate the UK, outside schegen, no euro, veto's all over the place...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> Eh? I posted what the Ryanair chappie had said, you asked me where I got it. I told you the link and copy pasted the quote. What has that got to do with opinion? It's a fact that he said it, unless the telegraph made it up.


No that's his opinion, not a fact which you initially stated was the reason to stay in the EU.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Goblin said:


> No that's his opinion, not a fact which you initially stated was the reason to stay in the EU.


I said that's what he gave as a reason to stay in. We shouldn't leave because then the French and Germans won't let him fly his planes, because they're meanies who don't like us.

I didn't say I agree with him, but I do think that kind of attitude is ammunition for the Leavers, not a reason to stay in.

If you agree with him, or think that's a genuine reason to remain in the Eu, then I give up.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> No that's his opinion, not a fact which you initially stated was the reason to stay in the EU.


You and your facts!
Heres one I would like to see!
You choking on one!

Dont waste your time replying, sure an influential educated worldly guy like yourself as far better things to do with his time you're back on ignore!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope, I've drawn a line under it


Good for you! Ive built a wall!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Elles said:


> But it doesn't. * If you take the whole quote it says that we are in an abusive relationship with countries that hate us, but it would be suicide to leave*. If I wanted to leave, I'd be even more determined. Stick one up to me will you indeed? Threaten me will you? Suicide? Sensible more like.
> 
> The quote is from a successful businessman who wanted us to stay in the Eu and went out campaigning with his Remain rosettes. I fear his attitude and that of others like him did more harm than good to the Eu cause. We're leaving the Eu, aren't we.


Not really. He said "The French and the Germans, *when they have the opportunity to stick one into the British*, they like nothing better."

There was a time before the EU, remember, and I believe it is those times being referred to - a time when we had an Empire and stuck it to the lion's share of the rest of the world, the Germans had Empiric dreams despite being latecomers to that scene, and the French also had an Empire and were fondly referred to as Britans favourite sparring partners. One of the main inception points of the EU was to limit the opportunities for one country sticking it to another, particularly in the fashions that had led to two massive wars within the space of half a century, by making us economically co-dependent. By and large, that has worked pretty well.

However, once we are outside the EU, then such opportunities for sticking it to us can be freely acted upon. That's how I believe the statement was intended to be interpreted.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> But it doesn't. If you take the whole quote it says that *we are in an abusive relationship with countries that hate us*, but it would be suicide to leave. If I wanted to leave, I'd be even more determined. Stick one up to me will you indeed? Threaten me will you? Suicide? Sensible more like.
> 
> The quote is from a successful businessman who wanted us to stay in the Eu and went out campaigning with his Remain rosettes. I fear his attitude and that of others like him did more harm than good to the Eu cause. We're leaving the Eu, aren't we.


In 40 years of membership I wonder how many negative stories about the EU have appeared in the Mail, Sun, Telegraph and Express "newspapers". I wonder how many Bone / Redwood / Rees-Mogg Tories have made negative comments in Parliament or government ministers have blamed the EU for problems entirely of their own making.

Before the referendum I wanted the UK and Europe to stay together. Since then I'd much prefer to call myself European than British.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> I said that's what he gave as a reason to stay in. We shouldn't leave because then the French and Germans won't let him fly his planes, because they're meanies who don't like us.


Which is totally false. Rules are there as previously explained. Nothing to do with the French or Germans.



> I didn't say I agree with him, but I do think that kind of attitude is ammunition for the Leavers, not a reason to stay in.


If that's what you meant, I agree. Sums up the attitude of many, it's boils down to nationalism rather than working together for the common good.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Elles said:


> I said that's what he gave as a reason to stay in. We shouldn't leave because then the French and Germans won't let him fly his planes, because they're meanies who don't like us.
> 
> I didn't say I agree with him, but I do think that kind of attitude is ammunition for the Leavers, not a reason to stay in.
> 
> If you agree with him, or think that's a genuine reason to remain in the Eu, then I give up.


Not being able to fly UK based planes in the EU has nothing specifically to do with the French and Germans, and everything to do with the pan-EU Open Skies agreement. You not liking his attitude (and no, I don't like him either) doesn't change those hard, cold facts.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Goblin said:


> [It] boils down to nationalism rather than working together for the common good.


Exactly.


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, that's nonsense.


Yeah, I'll believe you. Thousands wouldn't.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> That's interesting. A large field used for crop growing near where I used to live had beans planted in 2015. The entire crop, over perhaps 20 or 30 acres, wasn't harvested and just rotted away. Why was that?


Possibly because the could get more money for planting beans, or they needed to rest the land and Beans and peas are very good nitrogen fixers 

The beans are call tick beans. Some Peas and Rape are desiccated before harvest and turn rust colours


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Hard vs Soft explained. CONTENT WARNING: this video contains truth which I know many find offensive....


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> What do they mean exactly by 'Hard Brexit' and 'Soft Brexit'? I thought it was just a case of leave the EU or don't leave?


Another good example for you (and @Satori ) is in the article linked below.

May's 'hard Brexit' includes leaving every organisation where the European Court of Justice has any jurisdiction.

That includes 'Eurotom' which, among other things, regulates the movement of radioactive material, including isotopes currently used to treat 10,000 UK cancer patients.

Eurotom isn't even part of the EU, but we're going to leave it anyway because of the ECJ, and put their treatment at risk unless we can negotiate and set up some other regulatory body / framework in time for March 2019.

A 'soft Brexit' would, among other things, entail not being so bloody stupid for the sake of a tribal ideology, which would allow us to stay in Eurotom while leaving the EU.

http://www.libdemvoice.org/catherin...ding-the-tories-ideological-brexit-54856.html


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Please can we keep personal insults and squabbles out of this ?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Satori said:


> Hard vs Soft explained. CONTENT WARNING: this video contains truth which I know many find offensive....


I like that! And to keep it on point, it even mentioned fishing


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I like that! And to keep it on point, it even mentioned fishing


It's interesting that leave campaigners have to post things so bias they ignore realities. Love the bit where he mentions professional liars which should include a picture of himself. Also the graphic of Military Union which the all member states would have to agree (never happen, especially if the UK remained in). I wondered how many fish are thrown back, noticing the lack of details, didn't take long at all to find the EU changed policy back in 2013/2014 to help prevent this waste. Still it makes a good scare story if you ignore the facts. Sets the tone of the whole video though. Ignore reality and the fact the EU can and does change to correct faults found through democratic process.

Edit: No actual details of the impact either which is very telling, like May with her bullet point propaganda rather than the reality of what it really means.

Ah.. just noticed http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...iteer-argument-call-in-standoff-a7835011.html which blows the "control of our borders" lie out of the water as well but I suppose "350 million a week for the NHS" is far better and more "believable" than the reality.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Saw the Brexit scare over UK flights being banned from flying over Europe due to restrictions.....

and Mr Ryanair putting his sixpen'orth worth in..... if he wants to give up his UK business to other airlines hes most welcome to 


my diesel was down 1p/ltr again


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Satori said:


> Hard vs Soft explained. CONTENT WARNING: this video contains truth which I know many find offensive....


 The One Ring. :Hilarious

So are we leaving the single market or not? That was my post aeons ago, about politicians trying to keep everything the same as it was, but out instead of in. What's the point in having a referendum and voting to leave the Eu if everything was going to stay the same?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> The One Ring. :Hilarious
> 
> So are we leaving the single market or not? That was my post aeons ago, about politicians trying to keep everything the same as it was, but out instead of in. What's the point in having a referendum and voting to leave the Eu if everything was going to stay the same?


You can find a clip of Jacob Rees-Mogg on QT last week where he said "in is in and out is out".


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> You can find a clip of Jacob Rees-Mogg on QT last week where he said "in is in and out is out".


I watched QT, I don't think Rees-Mogg has much influence over what's happening with Europe though.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> I watched QT, I don't think Rees-Mogg has much influence over what's happening with Europe though.


Unfortunately. He is a true Brexiter, and if May really was serious about doing a proper job, she would put someone like him in charge of it. Saying that, I've just realised that I have no idea who she did put in charge of it. Rather remiss of me


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@MiffyMoo is it David Davies in charge of Brexit.

i wonder what his middle name is . I bet its Davy


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Unfortunately. He is a true Brexiter, and if May really was serious about doing a proper job, she would put someone like him in charge of it. Saying that, I've just realised that I have no idea who she did put in charge of it. Rather remiss of me


She should have employed nigel and put him in charge it would all be over now


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> @MiffyMoo is it David Davies in charge of Brexit.
> 
> i wonder what his middle name is . I bet its Davy


Nah, Davina!


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

DT said:


> She should have employed now Gill and put him in charge it would all be over now


Is that a funny way of spelling Nigel?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Elles said:


> Is that a funny way of spelling Nigel?


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> Is that a funny way of spelling Nigel?


Haha, I know that DT uses a dictation app thingy, so was desperately trying to figure out who it was before she went in and amended


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Haha, I know that DT uses a dictation app thingy, so was desperately trying to figure out who it was before she went in and amended


Oh is that what it is. That explains it.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Haha, I know that DT uses a dictation app thingy, so was desperately trying to figure out who it was before she went in and amended


Yes I do and it works well for me until I've had a drink


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

O2


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Haha, I know that DT uses a dictation app thingy, so was desperately trying to figure out who it was before she went in and amended


And it came up as our gill


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DT said:


> And it came up as our gill


Shall we just change his name?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> Shall we just change his name?


Do you I think they would let him in if we did


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

DT said:


> Do you I think they would let him in if we did


They'd better!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> Hard vs Soft explained. CONTENT WARNING: this video contains truth which I know many find offensive....


And what a load of 'piffle' it certainly is

You should be on the stage Satori! This has to be the best satire i've seen this week:Hilarious



MiffyMoo said:


> I like that! And to keep it on point, it even mentioned fishing


The real truth about the fishing industry. I think I posted this before the referendum. http://www.bluemarinefoundation.com...xit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry/

I'll just point out a few key _facts_ -

_1) 25% of English quota is landed by one Dutch vessel. That tonnage is allocated by the _*UK govt NOT the EU*_.

2) A post-Brexit UK might still have to agree quotas with its neighbours, but could it prevent foreign boats from fishing in its waters? Maybe. But only with huge investment in monitoring and control public bodies such as the Marine Management Organisation (MMO) - *organisations which are *__*being cut*__* at present.*_

_Whether the UK would want this sort of escalation is a different question, as it would also mean British boats could no longer fish in the waters of other European nations. This is a __major concern__ in the fishing industry as 20% of the fish caught by the UK fleet is __landed elsewhere in the EU__.

3) We've come a long way since the bad old days of excessive quotas and widespread illegal fishing. As things become more sustainable, fish numbers are rebounding, leading to __increasing UK fishing quotas__ and __growing profits__ (now the __highest in the EU__).

4) *the UK exports around 80% of its wild-caught seafood, with *__*four of the top five destinations*__* being European countries*.

*5)

Remaining in the EU also has big benefits for the marine ecosystems that the fishing industry ultimately relies on*. The __Habitats Directive__ protects key habitats and species such as reefs and Atlantic salmon, while the __Water Framework Directive__ and __Marine Strategy Framework Directive__commit EU members to restore and protect the environment. It __seems unlikely__ that the UK's current Conservative government, at least, would continue similarly progressive measures after a Brexit._

_It's no surprise the "In" campaign is __gaining support__ from a range of environmental groups - the weight of evidence is on their side. In contrast, many fishermen __have strong feelings about the EU__, but the main industry organisations and decision makers are __remaining_ _neutral_

So as the Greens Keith Taylor points out, Michael Goves fishing proposals are death sentence for our Dolphins - 4,000 were killed this spring off the coast of Cornwall.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> And what a load of 'piffle' it certainly is


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KatieandOliver said:


> Yes it was quite unpleasant  I'm sorry about that. I was not in a good place when I wrote it, but I still shouldn't have.


Well fwiw, I didn't read your post as being unpleasant at all. Actually, I rather liked it. To me it said that with all the big stuff going on in the world why do people zoom in on the little stuff? When North Korea has long range nuclear weapons, the price of supermarket chicken nuggets is hardly one of the big-ticket items. If one is to worry, find something worth worrying about.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> View attachment 317639


Trying a bit of reverse psychology eh?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Seriously if you are worried about the price of food shop at Aldi as it is alot cheaper and the food is really nice and you get British Farmed meat and vegetables.

The price of food goes up every year so the price increases have nothing to do with Brexit. We haven't left the EU yet so Brexit hasn't happened yet. The UK has only just started negotiating with the EU.

You'll find if you shop at Aldi your food budget will decrease if that is what worries you. There are worse things going on in the world you know that we should be worried about.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I didn't know until the other day that these cheap supermarkets make the weight of products smaller, that's why they are cheaper.

In fact any supermarket can get (say Cadbury for one) to make their products a size that they can make the most profit on.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> So are we leaving the single market or not? That was my post aeons ago, about politicians trying to keep everything the same as it was, but out instead of in. What's the point in having a referendum and voting to leave the Eu if everything was going to stay the same?


Well nobody can provide any factual advantages to leaving the single market other than slogans which are false.



noushka05 said:


> And what a load of 'piffle' it certainly is


It's all leavers tend to produce. Denial is the name of the game along with "brexit is brexit". Facts are inconsequential.



stockwellcat said:


> The price of food goes up every year so the price increases have nothing to do with Brexit. We haven't left the EU yet so Brexit hasn't happened yet. The UK has only just started negotiating with the EU.


So 40% of imports being more expensive due to the referendum result has no impact on anything. You really are desparate to ignore facts.



> There are worse things going on in the world you know that we should be worried about.


What's this.. let's simply ignore the problem? Doesn't match the leave propaganda does it.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> It's all leavers tend to produce. Denial is the name of the game along with "brexit is brexit". Facts are inconsequential.
> 
> So 40% of imports being more expensive due to the referendum result has no impact on anything. You really are desparate to ignore facts.
> 
> What's this.. let's simply ignore the problem? Doesn't match the leave propaganda does it.


Food goes up every year, it is called inflation. Imports shouldn't be going up as we are still full members of the EU until the day we leave in 2019 so the price of food should be staying the same. I have noticed no price increases shopping at Aldi (if there has been they have been very minimal price increases) and they are alot cheaper than Sainsburys, Iceland, Lidl, Tesco, Morrison's and for those than can afford to shop there Waitrose.

So explain how Aldi keep there prices affordable and the greedy high street supermarkets inflate there prices?

Nobody is ignoring anything @Goblin just the scaremongering and rhetoric from the remainers as they get desperate as Brexit is happening.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> So explain how Aldi keep there prices affordable and the greedy high street supermarkets inflate there prices?


Oops.. need to check your facts again: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40103588

Aldi is raising prices along with everyone else.

Nice bit at the end though



> The research firm said that *food price inflation, caused by the recent fall in the pound*, had already begun to hit shoppers' hip pockets, with the average household spending an additional £27 on shopping in the period.
> 
> "That may not seem like much, but if inflation continues at its current rate over the course of a year that would mean an extra £119 spent on groceries per household," said Mr Hayward.


So tell me, when did the major fall in the pound happen? Perhaps you can explain why when the news is full of "we are leaving the single market" the pound falls further?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Oops.. need to check your facts again: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40103588
> 
> Aldi is raising prices along with everyone else.
> 
> ...


You read the news report wrong twisting it to influence what you are ranting about.

Aldi saw the biggest increase in food sales after the high street stores increased there prices.

Scaremongering again are you @Goblin by twisting facts.



> Aldi and Lidl saw by far the biggest sales increases, climbing 19.8% and 18.3% respectively.


Read the article properly.

Also you tripped yourself up as you are trying to say import prices have gone up and highlighted from the article inflation has gone up, inflation has nothing to do with imports. Again import charges from the EU should not be going up as we are still full members of the EU until the day we actually leave, if they are the EU are breaking there own laws. You have not proved import prices have gone up as you highlighted inflation, inflation goes up every year even across the EU.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> You read the news report wrong twisting it to influence what you are ranting about.


Oh dear.. suggest you read it again..



> Sales at *Aldi and Lidl* have grown at their fastest rate in more than two years as the discounters opened new stores *and passed on price rises to consumers*, new research shows


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Oh dear.. suggest you read it again..


They are talking about the price increases at high street supermarkets not Aldi and Lidl. Aldi and Lidl are not high street supermarkets. Deary me you're hard work. I shop at Aldi and there has been no price increases on the products I buy including meat which is alot cheaper than the high street supermarkets. Example British farmed lamb at Aldi £3.36 Sainsburys lamb is £6.69+.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> my diesel was down 1p/ltr again


Just think how cheap it would be if the £ was @ $1.50 instead of $1.30


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> They are talking about the price increases at high street supermarkets not Aldi and Lidl. Aldi and Lidl are not high street supermarkets. Deary me you're hard work. I shop at Aldi and there has been no price increases on the products I buy including meat which is alot cheaper than the high street supermarkets. Example lamb at Aldi £3.36 Sainsburys lamb is £6.69+.


Suggest you read the quote direct from the article again.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Suggest you read the quote direct from the article again.


I have it says Sales have grown at Aldi and Lidl in the first instance and the reason why is if you actually know this is because the High Street supermarkets are too expensive and Aldi and Lidl are keeping there prices low. Aldi and Lidl are still a heck of alot cheaper than Sainsburys, Tescos, Morrison's, Waitrose etc.

Aldi is better than Lidl price wise as well.

I have not personally noticed any price increases at Aldi for over a year now, cannot comment before this as I shopped elsewhere.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Just think how cheap it would be if the £ was @ $1.50 instead of $1.30


Would be hardly any difference as approximately 70p in the £1 of fuel is tax.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> I have


Let's make this really easy.. Can you explain how *Aldi and Lidl* [...] *and passed on price rises to consumers* is the article not saying aldi have raised prices? Yes other factors are included, does not negate the unpleasant truth. Price rises are happening on basic essentials. Not scaremongering simple fact. Price of imports is linked to inflation. Imports cost more, inflation rises as prices go up. One would hope wages increase at least the rate of inflation but that's another issue.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Let's make this really easy.. Can you explain how *Aldi and Lidl* [...] *]is the article not saying aldi have raised prices? *


No it isn't. The article is stating that sales have increased at Aldi and Lidl because of the price increases in the High Street Supermarkets (Morrison's, Tesco, Iceland, Sainsburys, Asda and Waitrose). The money these supermarkets have increased is saved by shopping at Aldi and Lidl because Aldi and Lidl have not raised there prices.

I shop at Aldi and as I said there has been no price increases in the last 12 months at least that I have noticed. The high street supermarkets is a different issue as there has been considerable price increases out of greed. I done a price comparison recently and a weekly shop at Aldi saves me over £40 as my weekly shop now costs me £27 at Aldi yes my weekly shop at a High Street supermarket would cost in excess of £67 easily.

Aldi's meat and vegetables is not imported it is grown and reared in the UK. No export, import fees and the Aldi stores in the UK have there own branded food which is alot cheaper than the High Street Supermarkets.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> Seriously, You'll find if you shop at Aldi your food budget will decrease.


Seriously. 

Well, I beg to differ.

Scientists claim that graphene is the thinnest black material that has ever been developed and produced by man.

Now, if they'd ever bought Aldi value bin liners, they'd come to understand just how preposterous their claim was.:Smug


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Seriously.





> Well, I beg to differ.


I knew you would 


> Scientists claim that graphene is the thinnest black material that has ever been developed and produced by man.
> 
> Now, if they'd ever bought Aldi value bin liners, they'd come to understand just how preposterous their claim was.:Smug


Well your Aldi in Finland is alot different than our Aldi's in the UK .:Smug
We have long, long, long queues at the checkouts at our Aldi's with pull around baskets full


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

We've had a Lidl near me for years. I quite like some of the stuff they sell, it's nicer than the overprocessed, overpriced stuff in Sainsbury's, which is about the same distance away. I totally missed that we had an Aldi until last month. I was out for the day with my daughter and she wanted to pop in. Aldi is nice too. I don't shop there because it's cheaper than Sainsbury's, I shop there because I prefer it. Sainsbury's 'eat well for less' is a lie and supposed 'taste the difference' clever wording to make people think the difference is better, when it's not. Give me Lidl, Aldi and M&S.

I thought the article was saying that prices might have risen in Aldi and Lidl. I also thought it meant to cover the cost of new stores that they're opening because of Brexit. The article is poorly written and unclear. Aldi and Lidl are opening new stores, which is probably why more people are shopping in them. How many shoppers did they survey? How many of those said they'd recently stopped shopping in Sainsbury's due to inflation and Brexit? Where did they get their figures from? 

The reduced fuel costs should help balance the books a little.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> I knew you would
> 
> Well your Aldi in Finland is alot different than our Aldi's in the UK .:Smug
> We have long, long, long queues at the checkouts at our Aldi's with pull around baskets full


:WideyedAldi is not in Finland.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

What!!!!  You don't have an Aldi in Finland. I am shocked.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat said:


> What!!!!  You don't have an Aldi in Finland. I am shocked.


Nope, look closely and there definitely is aldi in Finland.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Would be hardly any difference as approximately 70p in the £1 of fuel is tax.


So, given that fuel duty & VAT has been unchanged for years, what do you think has caused the price of petrol to fluctuate?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> We've had a Lidl near me for years. I quite like some of the stuff they sell, it's nicer than the overprocessed, overpriced stuff in Sainsbury's, which is about the same distance away. I totally missed that we had an Aldi until last month. I was out for the day with my daughter and she wanted to pop in. Aldi is nice too. I don't shop there because it's cheaper than Sainsbury's, I shop there because I prefer it. Sainsbury's 'eat well for less' is a lie and supposed 'taste the difference' clever wording to make people think the difference is better, when it's not. Give me Lidl, Aldi and M&S.
> 
> I thought the article was saying that prices might have risen in Aldi and Lidl. I also thought it meant to cover the cost of new stores that they're opening because of Brexit. The article is poorly written and unclear. Aldi and Lidl are opening new stores, which is probably why more people are shopping in them. How many shoppers did they survey? How many of those said they'd recently stopped shopping in Sainsbury's due to inflation and Brexit? Where did they get their figures from?
> 
> The reduced fuel costs should help balance the books a little.


I'm gutted that neither of them deliver here. I don't have a car, so have to get it delivered. I far prefer to do a one month shop, so I can buy in bulk, which tends to be cheaper


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Years ago we used to shop monthly when we lived up in the Yorkshire Dales miles away from the shops. Our two children were young, but old enough to push a trolley round, so it was a trolley each and off we went with my mile long list. It always amused the person at the till and I'm sure we were hated by the people behind us in the queue.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> No it isn't. *The article is stating that sales have increased at Aldi and Lidl because of the price increases in the High Street Supermarkets (Morrison's, Tesco, Iceland, Sainsburys, Asda and Waitrose).*


That is one of the points, certainly, though more implied than stated.



stockwellcat said:


> The money these supermarkets have increased is saved by shopping at Aldi and Lidl because *Aldi and Lidl have not raised there prices*..


This statement, however, is not supportable, as the very first sentance in the article reads:

"Sales at Aldi and Lidl have grown at their fastest rate in more than two years as the discounters opened new stores *and* passed on price rises to consumers, new research shows"

Whilst conjunctions can often be interpreted in different ways, grammatically there is only one interpretation for this sentance. Lidl and Aldi have opened new stores AND they have ALSO passed on price rises to consumers. This is only further confirmed because no other retailers have been mentioned in the article at this point, so there are no other potential relative clause candidates.

Now, had that sentance read "the discounters opened new stores *and the big supermarkets* passed on price rises to consumers" or similar, then you could theorise that Aldi and Lidl had NOT raised their prices - although that would be conjecture, not stated fact. But it does not, so the only interpretation is that Lidl and Aldi have passed on price rises to consumers, though this may, of course, not affect you if you don't buy any of the products that have been the subject of such price rises.

And, ya know, I never thought I'd be dredging up my Comp Sci NLP skills on a pet forum


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> What!!!!  You don't have an Aldi in Finland. I am shocked.


I'm relieved.

It's bad enough with Lidl.

Although they do often have some good offers on Parkside tools.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> That is one of the points, certainly, though more implied than stated.
> 
> This statement, however, is not supportable, as the very first sentance in the article reads:
> 
> ...


I can't find anything to say that they haven't increased their prices, so it probably means that all have increased their prices, but because they were cheaper to start, more people are now shopping with them, hence the increased market share


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> I can't find anything to say that they haven't increased their prices, so it probably means that all have increased their prices, but because they were cheaper to start, more people are now shopping with them, hence the increased market share


That's exactly how I read it, too


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> That's exactly how I read it, too


Well if they have raised there prices I have not noticed but it isn't to do with what @Goblin was suggesting eg import fees or inflation going up but more to do with building new stores. So @Goblin's assumption for price increases in Aldi and Lidl is not true.

I stand corrected that Aldi and Lidl may have increased there prices but I have not personally noticed this. So the inflation and import charges theory is out of the window when it comes to price increases (if there was any) with Aldi and Lidl (the prices increases and excuses with the high street supermarkets is unjustified in many ways because it is clear they are using Brexit as an excuse (which hasn't happened yet) to inflate prices which I believe is more truthful than the import charges have risen as we are still full members of the EU so import charges won't rise yet when trading with the EU. Inflation may rise as it does every year around the world) and more to do with expansion.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> So, given that fuel duty & VAT has been unchanged for years, what do you think has caused the price of petrol to fluctuate?


Well seeing as petrol prices are currently falling obviously the value of the pound has little effect (because of all that tax). Oil price fluctuations are due to mainly traders in futures markets and OPEC. Oil prices have always fluctuated, the difference can be massive within just a few months. We used to have oil heating and filling the tank up could vary by £300 or more between fills (about three months in winter).

So can't really blame Brexit for that. Or actually perhaps us leavers can take a leaf out of the remain camp book and claim it's thanks to Brexit that fuel prices are falling.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Well seeing as petrol prices are currently falling obviously the value of the pound has little effect (because of all that tax).


This is a non-sequitur I'm afraid, and contradicts what you previously said about the price of oil having little effect.



Dr Pepper said:


> Oil price fluctuations are due to mainly traders in futures markets and OPEC. Oil prices have always fluctuated, the difference can be massive within just a few months. We used to have oil heating and filling the tank up could vary by £300 or more between fills (about three months in winter).
> 
> So can't really blame Brexit for that. Or actually perhaps us leavers can take a leaf out of the remain camp book and claim it's thanks to Brexit that fuel prices are falling.


Oil price fluctuations are - like any other - a function of supply and demand. OPEC (especially) control supply, and the state of the global economy is the biggest influence on demand.

But however much you try to dismiss the idea, if the price of oil increases overnight by c. 15%, it will affect the price of petrol.

That post-referendum event is now feeding through into the UK inflation rate, not only in terms of pump prices, but also in terms of transporting everything else (not least food) around the country.

I'm done pointing out the bleedin' obvious, so I won't be commenting on this again.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> This is a non-sequitur I'm afraid, and contradicts what you previously said about the price of oil having little effect.
> 
> Oil price fluctuations are - like any other - a function of supply and demand. OPEC (especially) control supply, and the state of the global economy is the biggest influence on demand.
> 
> ...


What are you on about? You claimed fuel would be even cheaper if the pound hadn't fallen in value. I pointed out the difference would be minute.

Not sure why you think I'm under the impression oil prices don't effect petrol prices? Very odd comment indeed as I said pretty much the opposite. Perhaps you got me confused with someone else?


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope, look closely and there definitely is aldi in Finland.


That's good to know but nobody in Finland knows about it. Please tell us all where Aldi in Finland is so we would be able to shop there.

Where is your link with reference to this information?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> Please tell us all where Aldi in Finland is


oooh, I know! I know!! (I actually got this one!!LOL).

Im jealous of anybody with an Aldi or Lidl near them. Despite living in a really poor area I have no decent cheap supermarkets here. Even my local Tesco was shut and replaced with......a camping shop!!! a motherfudgin' camping shop!!!:Banghead (in an area that has virtually no green spaces and a massive camping shop half a mile down the road!). *sigh* 
Not sure how much effect Brexit has on food prices though. Probably more to do with climate change and the cost of living exceeding peoples wages surely?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> So, given that fuel duty & VAT has been unchanged for years, what do you think has caused the price of petrol to fluctuate?


Supply and demand.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MrsZee said:


> That's good to know but nobody in Finland knows about it. Please tell us all where Aldi in Finland is so we would be able to shop there.
> 
> Where is your link with reference to this information?


You have to look inland it's definitely not in a coastal area.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2017)

Dr Pepper said:


> You have to look inland it's definitely not on the coast.


It might help to know a bit more. Aldi's own site claims the closest shop is in Denmark and that it has no interest at the moment to expand closer. The last information in the news said the same. No information online either. So unless aldi wants to have secret shops, I'd say you have fake news. Pity, aldi is OK. 
Unless you know more than these sources, in which case please post the source.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> It might help to know a bit more. Aldi's own site claims the closest shop is in Denmark and that it has no interest at the moment to expand closer. The last information in the news said the same. No information online either. So unless aldi wants to have secret shops, I'd say you have fake news. Pity, aldi is OK.
> Unless you know more than these sources, in which case please post the source.


Well I understand 2 words in this, and translator is refusing to kick in, so I'm kind of hoping this has the info you need

http://www.yritystele.fi/haku/yritykset/Aldi+Finland


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> http://www.yritystele.fi/haku/yritykset/Aldi+Finland


This is a search page for words similar to or associated with the words Finland & Aldi.:Hilarious

There is no Aldi in Finland.

Now, what on earth prompted you to conduct a search?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Zaros said:


> This is a search page for words similar to or associated with the words Finland & Aldi.:Hilarious
> 
> There is no Aldi in Finland.
> 
> Now, what on earth prompted you to conduct a search?


Oh bums.

@MrsZee sounded so sad that she couldn't find one, I wanted to try and help


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> Oh bums.
> 
> @MrsZee sounded so sad that she couldn't find one, I wanted to try and help


I know, I'm feeling a bit guilty now  She'll find aldi in Finland soon enough though I'm sure.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> *Oh bums*.
> 
> @MrsZee sounded so sad that she couldn't find one, I wanted to try and help


Oh bums indeed.:Hilarious

I was beginning to think this 'Aldi' malarkey was going to become fairly reminiscent of a Sarplaninac thread of ours from days of yore.

MrsZee with generations of knowledge and experience under her belt regarding the breed, being told contrary to all she knew by folks who hadn't really heard of the animal yet gleaned all their 'information' from the Internet.

Good 'ere. Innit


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Oh bums indeed.:Hilarious
> 
> I was beginning to think this 'Aldi' malarkey was going to become fairly reminiscent of a Sarplaninac thread of ours from days of yore.
> 
> ...


But everyone is an expert on our dogs. I had someone tell me that Dex was obviously a cross breed because his tail isn't curled on his back all the time and his eyes are brown. Yeah, alright love.

Well, I mean he is a cross, but that's not what gives it away


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MiffyMoo said:


> My local butcher sells local meat, eggs and whatever veggies happen to be sent to them. They also have homemade chutneys etc, and a guy down the road sells his homemade honey via a little table outside his kitchen window. It's all a little more expensive than the supermarket, so I can't afford it often, but I do when I can


That sounds nice, we don't have anything like that around here. Well a butcher but I don't eat meat now.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Zaros said:


> Oh bums indeed.:Hilarious
> 
> I was beginning to think this 'Aldi' malarkey was going to become fairly reminiscent of a Sarplaninac thread of ours from days of yore.
> 
> ...


The difference being... they didn't do a play on words...with the sar like this ridiculous comment is!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lullabydream said:


> The difference being... they didn't do a play on words...with the sar like this ridiculous comment is!


:Wideyed It's early for me and I'm not quite sure which 'ridiculous' comment you're referring to.

Unlike the days here, no real sunset, no real sunrise, it may suddenly dawn on me after I post this reply but, if it doesn't, I trust you might be able to point me in the right direction.:Shy


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> I know, I'm feeling a bit guilty now  She'll find aldi in Finland soon enough though I'm sure.


I feel you are just torturing the Zaros clan now.....
(and Im not even a crossword fan, but it is really, really funny!! bwa ha ha!!:Hilarious).


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> I feel you are just torturing the Zaros clan now.....
> (and Im not even a crossword fan, but it is really, really funny!! bwa ha ha!!:Hilarious).


I've finally worked it out! :Hilarious


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

We are saved

Tony Blair is back in charge


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> We are saved
> 
> Tony Blair is back in charge


oh FFS . Why is he crawling out of the woodwork ! unch:Rage


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> oh FFS . Why is he crawling out of the woodwork ! unch:Rage


I think it's because in his discussions with senior EU politicians he has heard that they might be open to compromise on freedom of movement.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

This seems relevant to this thread ...

A report from food policy specialists has warned the forthcoming break from Europe will lead to "chaos" unless ministers establish a clear plan on how a new food system will operate. Currently, the EU props up a huge chunk of Britain's food supply - providing 31% of its food - which the authors suggest cannot be walked away from without provisions in place.

The researchers from three UK universities launched the 86-page review into how Brexit could impact the country's food and farming as the Government gears up for the next round of negotiations with Brussels. It cites recent research by the British Retail Consortium that the *absence of a trade deal could push the price of imported food up by 22%.*​More information via this link:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...failure-supermarkets-imports-eu-a7844751.html


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It's hard to get wound up by it, when the majority of people eat far too much rubbish tbh. If everyone ate to live and there was less living to eat, we'd all be better off.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Arnie83 said:


> This seems relevant to this thread ...
> 
> A report from food policy specialists has warned the forthcoming break from Europe will lead to "chaos" unless ministers establish a clear plan on how a new food system will operate. Currently, the EU props up a huge chunk of Britain's food supply - providing 31% of its food - which the authors suggest cannot be walked away from without provisions in place.
> 
> ...


Best start stocking up then! After seeing TM in action so far I'm not convinced she'll manage to sort a deal for the vast majority of the country!..though I'm sure they'll still manage to get enough caviar and champagne for their rich friends!


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)




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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Arnie83 said:


> I think it's because in his discussions with senior EU politicians he has heard that they might be open to compromise on freedom of movement.


but who made him the go-between?

hes almost as hated as Thatcher


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)




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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> but who made him the go-between?
> 
> hes almost as hated as Thatcher


Well everyone seems to be sticking their oar in. First Corbyn had talks with Michel Barnier, and then Wee Jimmy Krankie annunced that she was going to have talks with him as well. Nothing gets a great deal for the country like two self serving idiots scuttling off on their own to try and prove that they can do it better.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Well everyone seems to be sticking their oar in. First Corbyn had talks with Michel Barnier, and then Wee Jimmy Krankie annunced that she was going to have talks with him as well. Nothing gets a great deal for the country like two self serving idiots scuttling off on their own to try and prove that they can do it better.


How on earth could they do any worse when tories are just "making it up as they go along?"

Our response to Brexit "farcical", a disgrace; we are "making it up as we go along," "very poorly prepared"

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...that-the-british-are-a-disgrace-35935039.html









Martin Wolf >>>.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Some people don't care if they starve so long as we leave the EU:Hilarious


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> but who made him the go-between?
> 
> hes almost as hated as Thatcher


I think an emotion as deeply felt as 'hate' is likely to blind some people to a more rational observation of events.

If some senior EU politicians are prepared to consider changes to the freedom of movement rules - and it's not the first time that has been mooted - then the Brexit negotiators would surely be doing the UK a great disservice by not at least raising the possibility in their talks to see if it's got legs, whether the information came from Blair or the Archangel Gabriel.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Some people don't care if they starve so long as we leave the EU:Hilarious


True, scary, and impervious to logical or factual argument.

The raw tribal instinct of our early ancestors easily trumping any intellectual advance that we like to imagine has occurred since.

I hope David Cameron has seen it and is asking himself for the millionth time why he entrusted the Brexit decision to a referendum of the people.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> How on earth could they do any worse when tories are just "making it up as they go along?"
> 
> Our response to Brexit "farcical", a disgrace; we are "making it up as we go along," "very poorly prepared"
> 
> ...


Nowt wrong with a bit of improv.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Some people don't care if they starve so long as we leave the EU:Hilarious


Project fear.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Satori said:


> Nowt wrong with a bit of improv.


Actually seeing as this process has never been done before it's all going to be improvisation and change as we progress. There is no blue print to follow, no right or wrong way. It's new to everyone involved and everyone watching.

When three or four other countries have left the EU then workable procedures and time scales will have been established, then people can say, and see, if something is amiss.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> Nowt wrong with a bit of improv.


(stole this)

You don't seem to have made any notes, David.

"It's all up here!"


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually seeing as this process has never been done before it's all going to be improvisation and change as we progress. There is no blue print to follow, no right or wrong way. It's new to everyone involved and everyone watching.
> 
> When three of four other countries have left the EU then workable procedures and time scales will have been established, then people can say, and see, if something is amiss.


The government are completely clueless. Wake up! this is our future they are gambling with.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> True, scary, and impervious to logical or factual argument.
> 
> The raw tribal instinct of our early ancestors easily trumping any intellectual advance that we like to imagine has occurred since.
> 
> I hope David Cameron has seen it and is asking himself for the millionth time why he entrusted the Brexit decision to a referendum of the people.


I guess Brexit & Trump are what you get when you let emotions override reason.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

The EU team having a pile of paperwork in front of them makes me smile, it looks a bit staged!


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

This was in the Independent (no idea how good or bad a newspaper it is)

"The Government has provided next to no details on agriculture and fisheries, and there has been total silence on the rest of the food chain where most employment, value adding and consumer choice are made.

"With the Brexit deadline in 20 months, this is a serious policy failure on an unprecedented scale. Anyone would think they want a drop into the World Trade Organisation abyss."

He added: "At least the UK entered World War Two with emergency plans"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...failure-supermarkets-imports-eu-a7844751.html


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> I hope David Cameron has seen it and is asking himself for the millionth time why he entrusted the Brexit decision to a referendum of the people.


He did it to fend off the threat of UKIP and because he was so arrogant that he thought he could win it easily. It was a joy to see the smile wiped off of his face, and those of every political colour including the sneering TV presenters, when a bunch of old thicko Neanderthals defeated Project Fear.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> but who made him the go-between?
> 
> hes almost as hated as Thatcher


yes , why him ! Who can trust this sneaky lying b'stard. ! :Blackalien


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Some people don't care if they starve so long as we leave the EU:Hilarious


says it all really, most people voted leave as they didn't want to be ruled by the EU but have no idea what the EU is all about.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> This was in the Independent *(no idea how good or bad a newspaper it is) *
> 
> "The Government has provided next to no details on agriculture and fisheries, and there has been total silence on the rest of the food chain where most employment, value adding and consumer choice are made.
> 
> ...


The Indy tries to give all views, but is generally pro-EU.

However, it's harder to suggest bias in the case of the experts from the Universities of Sussex, London, and Cardiff, on whose report the article is extensively based. (If we're still listening to experts, that is!)


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Road_Hog said:


> He did it to fend off the threat of UKIP and because he was so arrogant that he thought he could win it easily. It was a joy to see the smile wiped off of his face, and those of every political colour including the sneering TV presenters, when a bunch of old thicko Neanderthals defeated Project Fear.


A joy which is presumably beginning to sour somewhat as 'project fear's' scaremongering predictions start to prove rather accurate.

(And off on a real tangent; Neanderthals were far from thick! )


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> (And off on a real tangent; *Neanderthals were far from thick! *)


But I think modern man is!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Phoenix Rising said:


> This was in the Independent (no idea how good or bad a newspaper it is)
> 
> "The Government has provided next to no details on agriculture and fisheries, and there has been total silence on the rest of the food chain where most employment, value adding and consumer choice are made.
> 
> ...


They are as prepared as in September 1939. Look what happened 20 months later......


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

There are millions of people living, working, trading outside of the Eu. Why is everyone so frightened? What are you afraid of? Losing your job? Pollution? Starving? Having to leave your home, or separate from your family? 

If a specific thing frightens an individual, then I would guess its best to face it head on. Do research. Find out what laws outside of the Eu might cover your feared predicament maybe? Find out if there's anything useful, practical, you can do about it? 

The uk is leaving the Eu. It's unlikely to lead to food vouchers, dried egg and milk, queues for bread and toilet roll, fights over potatoes, or war. It may lead to slightly higher prices, or even cheaper houses and the odd glitch, but no doubt everything will settle back down again and we'll be back to normal. 

Being constantly afraid of something that may never happen, or could happen whether we left or not is unhealthy.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Elles said:


> There are millions of people living, working, trading outside of the Eu. Why is everyone so frightened? What are you afraid of? Losing your job? Pollution? Starving? Having to leave your home, or separate from your family?
> 
> If a specific thing frightens an individual, then I would guess its best to face it head on. Do research. Find out what laws outside of the Eu might cover your feared predicament maybe? Find out if there's anything useful, practical, you can do about it?
> 
> ...


I see some stuff I cannot , sadly, publish. But big changes are planned, that will make middle earners much poorer and their life savings and pensions used to pay for their health care.

No details, but general direction. It will not affect the top 1% with money at Bahamas or Dubai.
They would actually be better off.

Brexit will change quite a lot.

Top 1% richer and the rest poorer.
Basically.
Moving out before Brexit and taking your saving with you if you can retire sounds like a good idea.

Unemployment might rise too. Some sectors are under direct threat and big employers are already confirming possible staff cuts post Brexit in business plans for forthcoming years. Significant cuts.
2019-2020.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Some companies have said they will relocate some of their business, some will be opening additional premises elsewhere, including Dublin, Austria, Germany.. Reasons being given are changes in the global market, finding the right employees (many of their uk based employees are actually from outside the uk), expansion already planned and easy access to the European market post Brexit. 

This could be good for people living and working in Europe and the UK. Some will have to adjust, change jobs, or relocate, but we are adaptable and we may find that some sectors may relocate, but others expand. The global market is changing generally and for more and more workers physical location is less and less important. 

The newspapers don't tell the whole story and have often been inaccurate with reports. Although there will be changes, it's not all bad. It's better to look to business reports and publications for slightly less biased and more accurate analysis and quotes I think.


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

I see Project Fear is strong amongst the Remoaners. 

It really must grate to have your future lives decided by people who voted leave.

Decent people will be positive and look to the future and opportunities, the rest will moan and complain.

A book, quite simple, but with a strong message, that might help people; Who moved my cheese?

It's available for PDF download,.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Elles said:


> Some companies have said they will relocate some of their business, some will be opening additional premises elsewhere, including Dublin, Austria, Germany.. Reasons being given are changes in the global market, finding the right employees (many of their uk based employees are actually from outside the uk), expansion already planned and easy access to the European market post Brexit.
> 
> This could be good for people living and working in Europe and the UK. Some will have to adjust, change jobs, or relocate, but we are adaptable and we may find that some sectors may relocate, but others expand. The global market is changing generally and for more and more workers physical location is less and less important.
> 
> The newspapers don't tell the whole story and have often been inaccurate with reports. Although there will be changes, it's not all bad. It's better to look to business reports and publications for slightly less biased and more accurate analysis and quotes I think.


I meant business projections. They for some sectors and employers look not good. The loss of revenues would be huge plus the effects of job loss.
It obviously might hit shares and pound....

Imagine Britain in position of Greece, but no one to bail out....


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> There are millions of people living, working, trading outside of the Eu. Why is everyone so frightened? What are you afraid of? Losing your job? Pollution? Starving? Having to leave your home, or separate from your family?
> 
> If a specific thing frightens an individual, then I would guess its best to face it head on. Do research. Find out what laws outside of the Eu might cover your feared predicament maybe? Find out if there's anything useful, practical, you can do about it?
> 
> ...


I'm not frightened of anything to do with leaving the EU.

I am concerned for those who already need to visit food banks, and those who are close to it. Because even 'slightly higher prices' are bad news for those on the margins or already in the mire.

And I am concerned for those on benefits, especially disability, who are already worried that they will be forced not to work but to forego those benefits because the government says they are fit where potential employers will not think so. There will be a continued squeeze on the welfare state, including the NHS, because although the economy is unlikely to crash as it did ten years ago, it will not grow as fast during the next decade as it would have done had we remained in the EU. Most will not notice, but the most vulnerable will.

Mostly, though, I am sad that the British public have shown many of themselves to be inward-looking and tribal rather than seeing themselves as human beings little different from all the others on the planet.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Road_Hog said:


> I see Project Fear is strong amongst the Remoaners.


Project fear which has been shown to be project truth. Facts rather than lies. Experts rather than fantasists.



> Decent people will be positive and look to the future and opportunities, the rest will moan and complain.


Decent people will admit when they are wrong and damaging to other people's lives for NO GAIN.

Maybe you can provide advantages to leaving based on reality which nobody else can provide.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Road_Hog said:


> I see Project Fear is strong amongst the Remoaners.
> 
> It really must grate to have your future lives decided by people who voted leave.
> 
> ...


Are you really distinguishing between 'remoaners' and 'decent people'?

So far the predictions of 'project fear' have proved considerably more accurate than those of either 'project wildly optimistic' (e.g. one year ago David Davis said that by now most of our new trade deals would be completed or well on the way, and not one has even got off the ground; Boris Johnson is in favour of 'having our cake and eating it', the EU 'need us more than we need them') or 'project downright lies' (£350 million a week for the NHS, 75 million Turks are on their way, immigrants only come for the benefits but at the same time take our jobs etc.)


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Elles said:


> There are millions of people living, working, trading outside of the Eu. Why is everyone so frightened? What are you afraid of? Losing your job? Pollution? Starving? Having to leave your home, or separate from your family?
> 
> If a specific thing frightens an individual, then I would guess its best to face it head on. Do research. Find out what laws outside of the Eu might cover your feared predicament maybe? Find out if there's anything useful, practical, you can do about it?
> 
> ...


People will panic buy and I suspect more in the poorer areas where people are living on small weekly amounts so money doesn't go far to buy stuff and pay bills.

I would try and stock up on cupboard things even if they only buy one item extra per week. Many supermarkets currently have 'yellow sticker time' when things are reduced to 50p and less. Anything that can be frozen too if you can afford to get an extra chest freezer in before brexit.Think it's not happening for another 20 months. Then the only foods you have to worry about is fresh stuff that you'd have to get each week such as salad and fruit fresh meat and fish. If there was a sudden initial shortage and mass panic you at least have enough food in to get you through it until the govt and businesses sort themselves out!

The problems is also alot of farms employ EU workers for picking fruit and veg because British people won't do it. Over half their work forces came from countries such as Bulgaria and Romania to work for them every year. Unless the govt make some kind of short work visa to allow them to still come over and work here, there's going to be a lot of crop/fruit/veg going to waste. The farmers said they've tried advertising in job centres but us British don't want that kind of work. Maybe they will in the future if they think they may be able to sneak a few free fruits or veg home to feed their families ..because not enough of it is reaching the shops!

I think Britain will sort some trade deals with other countries for foods but whether they get it sorted in time is the issue as it seems our Govt seems not to be urgently sorting any alternative for the sources of food we would lose after leaving the EU?

I don't know whether I'd want meat that was from China given that they eat dogs over there! I wouldn't put it past anyone to sneak it in and try it sell it off as something else if it meant they made a profit! We've had Horsemeat burgers in Tesco's WITH our supposedly tight health and safety regulations about what's fit to human consumption, what are we going to end up with if they are relaxed to allow trade with other countries whose regulations aren't as tight?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine Britain in position of Greece, but no one to bail out....


No. We have our own currency. Our taxes are low. Britain is nothing like Greece. Imagining a scenario worse than is ever likely to happen and living in fear makes people ill.

How our government treats the most vulnerable in our society, such as the disabled, has little to do with the Eu. Prices of some things will likely rise, in or out, how our government deals with it is up to our government and how we, as voters, influence the outcome.

Outside of the Eu we can treat everyone on the planet the same. At the moment being born in Romania, or France gives you instant advantages over being born in Africa, or Australia, if you want a job in the Uk. Trade also improves poorer countries.

The bus said we could give the £350 mil to the NHS. It didn't say our government would. Brexiters weren't in a position to make policy promises. I don't remember seeing anything about Turks. This is all past history.

Why is it ok to exploit Eastern Europeans with poor pay and conditions, but not British workers? If we look at how Eastern Europeans are employed on farms and why they accept it, we can see it's not nationality that's the issue. A Polish, or Romanian worker coming to the uk has to have work of some kind within 3 months. If all they can get is back breaking work on minimum wage (or less, look at agency and gang working) and it means they will earn more than doing the same work on farms at home, they permit themselves to be exploited. It was something Jeremy Corbyn was looking at on his manifesto.

If it's worth other countries exporting food products to us, we can put pressure on our government to improve standards and refuse imports if they don't comply with our regulations. Initially Eu law will be our law until our government has time to look at it. So long as we don't have a dictatorship, our MPs and activists can put pressure on our successive governments to maintain and improve standards. Leaving the eu doesn't mean a sudden ban on food imports from Europe. We already import meat from china.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Elles said:


> No. We have our own currency. Our taxes are low. Britain is nothing like Greece. Imagining a scenario worse than is ever likely to happen and living in fear makes people ill.
> 
> How our government treats the most vulnerable in our society, such as the disabled, has little to do with the Eu. Prices of some things will likely rise, in or out, how our government deals with it is up to our government and how we, as voters, influence the outcome.
> 
> ...


Imagine the animal welfare in China. Really better than in EU?
My personal opinion is UK is better off with seasonal and other workforce from EU as it is easier for them to adapt and assimilate. I mean people from similar countries, democratic, with similar values and life style are less likely to isolate themselves within their own communities.
I believe most EU workforce speak English and are happy to obey English law, accept English culture and education even if they continue with their traditions or religion.

It is was for them to come for few months and go back if work.is seasonal.

European cities are very much alike.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Imagine the animal welfare in China. Really better than in EU?
> My personal opinion is UK is better off with seasonal and other workforce from EU as it is easier for them to adapt and assimilate. I mean people from similar countries, democratic, with similar values and life style are less likely to isolate themselves within their own communities.
> I believe most EU workforce speak English and are happy to obey English law, accept English culture and education even if they continue with their traditions or religion.


I think it's wrong that poor workers desperate to move to the uk are exploited. I don't think it matters where they come from. It's easier to exploit workers from inside the Eu. If seasonal workers wish to come here to work temporarily and there are jobs with decent pay and conditions available to them, there's no reason the uk can't enable them. Wherever they are from. Temporary work permits of some kind will allow people to build their finances, then return home to contribute to their own poorer countries and/or living standards, if that's the case.

Using them as cheap labour, or because their own countries will train them and it's cheaper for us, is no excuse for it. Why should we take trained nurses, dentists and doctors from Spain, Poland and the Philippines and not offer training and opportunity here? Using skills their country's taxes and money paid for. Why should we take groups of young people away from their families to work our fields for pay and conditions our own workforce wouldn't entertain? It's exploitative not helpful imo. There needs to be balance.

We already import meat from China. Inside the Eu. The Eu imports meat and other goods from China. I'm not sure why leaving the Eu means accepting lower standards from China. The Eu aren't going to stop selling us their goods if we leave the single market and standards will still have to be maintained for uk citizens. Criminal activity is entirely different. If someone wants to smuggle something illegal into the Uk, or horsemeat into pasties, we have to deal with it and cooperate with enforcement agencies worldwide.

I'm personally not in favour of employing workers from the Eu, over workers from elsewhere though. Saying they are more likely to speak English and conform to uk law, I'm not sure is true, or fair really. A person should be employed on their own merit and availability, not just on birthplace imo.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> we can put pressure on our government to improve standards and refuse imports if they don't comply with our regulations.


Interesting considering the majority of complaints about the EU weren't related to the EU but the UK government. So tell me just how are people to hold the government to account? A general election once every 4/5 years when only the latest topics are going to be voted upon? When politicians lying is supported and encouraged and facts are dismissed and well, you've had enough of experts.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Interesting considering the majority of complaints about the EU weren't related to the EU but the UK government. So tell me just how are people to hold the government to account? A general election once every 4/5 years when only the latest topics are going to be voted upon? When politicians lying is supported and encouraged and facts are dismissed and well, you've had enough of experts.


You mean lies where bodies, including the press, told the unsuspecting public it was all the Eu's fault? Whatever 'it' is. Who will they blame if something goes wrong once we're out? Probably the French and Germans for scuppering our ambitions, or maybe Trump or Putin. Or they can always fall back on terrorism, or Kim Jong Un. We'll have to see.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

The line about European workers being favoured over those from outside the EU being somehow unfair or discriminatory is one that has been mooted quite a lot over recent months.

The point of the single market, though, is that the workers within it are not seen as outside labour coming in; they are part of the EU workforce. If a country isn't part of the EU then their labourers are not part of the EU workforce. As the name suggests, it's a 'single market'. What part of it you come from is irrelevant, so long as you're inside it.

Once we've left, we will no doubt favour UK workers over those from outside the UK. I don't suppose many will see that as discriminatory.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Arnie83 said:


> Mostly, though, I am sad that the British public have shown many of themselves to be inward-looking and tribal rather than seeing themselves as human beings little different from all the others on the planet.


I think you could say the same about being European or being part of the Eu , that's one huge tribe!


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> I think you could say the same about being European or being part of the Eu , that's one huge tribe!


Absolutely agree, and the human race is one even huger one.

But to get to a stage where we view ourselves as a single global family we will have to go through a lot of interim steps. The EU could still be one of those, showing the way forward. The British people, though, chose to take a step back towards more, smaller tribes. Too soon for them, it seems.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Well I don't know if this is just scaremongering by the papers or not, but there's two articles come up in my newsfeed today.

One saying TM will not rule out rellaxing food standards after Brexit

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-us-chlorine-soaked-chicken-liam-a7857036.htm

and one listing 'Freak foods' coming to the UK after Brexit

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...ions-change-uk-us_uk_5975c4b3e4b09e5f6cd07c34

Mostly, but not only meat that won't be safe! They are (in case you cant see/open the link)

1. Chlorinated Chicken
2. Petrol-based Additives...yes..IN food! .. example Butylated Hydroxyanisole (BHA), is inserted in products such as mashed potatoes and ice cream in America to provide a longer shelf life.
3. Acid Washed Meat
4 Hormone Pumped Meat
5 'Cannibal Animals' - Waste meat from abattoirs (currently prevented by the EU from re-entering the food chain via animal feed)

Don't know what is wrong with our govt..I assume they WON"T be eating it themselves! Last week there was a program on TV about Psychopaths in positions of power and they described Theresa May perfectly!!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Well I don't know if this is just scaremongering by the papers or not, but there's two articles come up in my newsfeed today.
> 
> One saying TM will not rule out rellaxing food standards after Brexit
> 
> ...


But you dont have to eat it....... there is a whole load of stuff I wouldnt buy now including Danish bacon


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I honestly cannot believe people would be fine with the government lowering our food safety standards & lower animal welfare standards. I am shocked.

ETA @Lexiedhb This wont just affect meat & animals. The USA has lower standards across the board. 82 pesticides are banned in the EU, this will affect most things we eat.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Lexiedhb said:


> But you dont have to eat it....... there is a whole load of stuff I wouldnt buy now including Danish bacon


I don't no.. I'm in a job and have a large family who'd help if I couldn't afford decent food. My worry would be they'd (the govt) would make these items very cheap, whilst bumping up the price of the non-chemically treated meats so for the poorer families it would be their only choice to feed their kids... any food is better than no food at all for hungry kids that otherwise wouldn't eat for days! ..and whose to say it won't be sneaked into the restaurant chains and your local pub roast to save them money. They aren't going to advertise it on the daily specials board are they? 'Chlorinated chicken with yorkshire puds and veg'  

I've also volunteered at soup kitchen and fed the homeless, most food that they got was donated to make meals from, you can bet stuff like that would end up there cos the govt doesn't care about the homeless. ...Or in care homes that are struggling to find the staff and money to keep the places open. You don't think they will cut corners to feed everyone too? The implications are bigger than just... 'don't buy it' , some people won't have a choice and may not even know they are eating it (think elderly with dementia being fed it in care homes, children in schools, especially now many schools are losing funding)


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I don't no.. I'm in a job and have a large family who'd help if I couldn't afford decent food. My worry would be they'd (the govt) would make these items very cheap, whilst bumping up the price of the non-chemically treated meats so for the poorer families it would be their only choice to feed their kids... any food is better than no food at all for hungry kids that otherwise wouldn't eat for days! ..and whose to say it won't be sneaked into the restaurant chains and your local pub roast to save them money. They aren't going to advertise it on the daily specials board are they? 'Chlorinated chicken with yorkshire puds and veg'
> 
> I've also volunteered at soup kitchen and fed the homeless, most food that they got was donated to make meals from, you can bet stuff like that would end up there cos the govt doesn't care about the homeless. ...Or in care homes that are struggling to find the staff and money to keep the places open. You don't think they will cut corners to feed everyone too? The implications are bigger than just... 'don't buy it' , some people won't have a choice and may not even know they are eating it (think elderly with dementia being fed it in care homes, children in schools, especially now many schools are losing funding)


No its NEVER their only choice as this entire thread shows, beans, lentils, veg etc will go WAY further so cost less than a box of chicken nuggets - if you can educate people. I ask now where restaurants get their meat from, I think everyone should, if they care, I would definitely ASK a care home, or my childs school if they were eating there.


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## sidevalve (Jun 29, 2017)

As mentioned above THERE ARE OTHER PLACES THAN EUROPE. Australia New Zealand Scandinavia to name just a few. Stick head over parapet and look


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

A quick summary of this thread.

Food is going to be more expensive post Brexit and the poor will starve.

Also post Brexit cheaper food will be available but we mustn't allow that.

No pleasing some people.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> No its NEVER their only choice as this entire thread shows, beans, lentils, veg etc will go WAY further so cost less than a box of chicken nuggets - if you can educate people. I ask now where restaurants get their meat from, I think everyone should, if they care, I would definitely ASK a care home, or my childs school if they were eating there.


What would you do if the care home was buying in meat that was reared/produced in a standard that you believed was not acceptable?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

3dogs2cats said:


> What would you do if the care home was buying in meat that was reared/produced in a standard that you believed was not acceptable?


It would have been a question I asked prior to placing a parent there. Or if it changed whilst there, but they were really happy, with every other aspect I'd ask for them to be fed vegetarian, unless of course said parent still had all their marbles, then it would be up to them


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

Dr Pepper said:


> A quick summary of this thread.
> 
> Food is going to be more expensive post Brexit and the poor will starve.
> 
> ...


Why does the food affordable to the most people in the country have to tainted with chemicals and hormones? Will the Houses of Parliament be cooking the same meat for the MP's if it's so safe????? Think someone challenged Liam Fox to eat chlorinated chicken while he was in the US to prove it's safe to eat, don't think he took them up of the offer!

Why can't they just make good meat affordable to all who want to eat meat? ...not just the richest? and make sure it's ALL safe and fit for human consumption for EVERYONE?

Someone on my FB suggested PETA were behind the scare stories, as what quicker way to turn most of an whole country vegetarian/vegan than to suggest the only food they're likely to be able to afford will be contaminated. If this was the only thing going on I might agree but given what the Govt are already doing ....charging the homeless for being homeless,not allowed to give them food, very little social housing being built, poorer families being moved out of London etc it does seem the govt are out on a 'social cleansing' exercise!

Anyone see the program on Psychopaths that do anything to cling onto power last week? Described Theresa May perfectly! (paying out billions to terrorists to hold onto power..ring any bells?)


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> A quick summary of this thread.
> 
> Food is going to be more expensive post Brexit and the poor will starve.
> 
> ...


What it actually means is it will be a race to the bottom for food safety, for animal welfare & for our environment.

.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> It would have been a question I asked prior to placing a parent there. Or if it changed whilst there, but they were really happy, with every other aspect I'd ask for them to be fed vegetarian, unless of course said parent still had all their marbles, then it would be up to them


Would you not been concerned that the fruit, the vegetables, the grains they are eating may be sprayed with chemicals so toxic they are banned in the EU?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Why does the food affordable to the most people in the country have to tainted with chemicals and hormones? Will the Houses of Parliament be cooking the same meat for the MP's if it's so safe????? Think someone challenged Liam Fox to eat chlorinated chicken while he was in the US to prove it's safe to eat, don't think he took them up of the offer!
> 
> Why can't they just make good meat affordable to all who want to eat meat? ...not just the richest? and make sure it's ALL safe and fit for human consumption for EVERYONE?
> 
> ...


Well they can't make quality meat affordable to all, that just can't happen. That is why organic and free range is more expensive. So as it is today you'll have a choice, just as will the MP's who are probably already eating the expensive free range organic product rather than the intensively farmed version.

The other angle is why should the less well off be deprived of cheaper meat simply because it doesn't fit in with your ideology? If you don't like the way cheap meat is produced boycott it, you've done your bit then and lessened demand so that's a few chickens you've saved from being hatched and going through the process.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Phoenix Rising said:


> I don't no.. I'm in a job and have a large family who'd help if I couldn't afford decent food. My worry would be they'd (the govt) would make these items very cheap, whilst bumping up the price of the non-chemically treated meats so for the poorer families it would be their only choice to feed their kids... any food is better than no food at all for hungry kids that otherwise wouldn't eat for days! ..and whose to say it won't be sneaked into the restaurant chains and your local pub roast to save them money. They aren't going to advertise it on the daily specials board are they? 'Chlorinated chicken with yorkshire puds and veg'
> 
> I've also volunteered at soup kitchen and fed the homeless, most food that they got was donated to make meals from, you can bet stuff like that would end up there cos the govt doesn't care about the homeless. ...Or in care homes that are struggling to find the staff and money to keep the places open. You don't think they will cut corners to feed everyone too? The implications are bigger than just... 'don't buy it' , some people won't have a choice and may not even know they are eating it (think elderly with dementia being fed it in care homes, children in schools, especially now many schools are losing funding)


I think you are overthinking about care homes and food..

The CQC always looks in to quality of food being offered in any care situation. 
What's being fed, has to be logged, and must meet nutritional requirements of individuals...which is where some places fail inspections on food alone but does not make headline news .so unless you read reports that are available online no one would know, as care and other aspects may be good.

Working in the sector in a residential home with young adults who all need advocates. We look at food as important, and the food budget is never skimmed on, and yes we are short of staff, and as it's residential home we don't employ cooks we cook for them and with them..we would be closed down in an instance of we fed rubbish to the residents.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Why does the food affordable to the most people in the country have to tainted with chemicals and hormones? Will the Houses of Parliament be cooking the same meat for the MP's if it's so safe????? Think someone challenged Liam Fox to eat chlorinated chicken while he was in the US to prove it's safe to eat, don't think he took them up of the offer!
> 
> Why can't they just make good meat affordable to all who want to eat meat? ...not just the richest? and make sure it's ALL safe and fit for human consumption for EVERYONE?
> 
> ...


There is no way the world can keep up with the ever increasing demand for cheap meat, it is morally, environmentally and from a health view not sustainable. We all need to look at cutting back animal consumption whether we are wealthy or not.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Would you not been concerned that the fruit, the vegetables, the grains they are eating may be sprayed with chemicals so toxic they are banned in the EU?


Right at this very moment no - in the future depending on what, where, why, how, possibly.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Right at this very moment no - in the future depending on what, where, why, how, possibly.


Its a simple choice of high food safely standards under the EU or low food safety standards in any trade deal with the US. 'Project fear' was very real.

The TTIP nightmare will be our reality.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Its a simple choice of high food safely standards under the EU or low food safety standards in any trade deal with the US. 'Project fear' was very real.
> 
> The TTIP nightmare will be our reality.
> 
> View attachment 318772


Nope. We'll have the choice of both. It's not one or the other.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Nope. We'll have the choice of both. It's not one or the other.


Remember the horse meat scandal?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....scandal-guardian-investigation-public-secrecy


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Its a simple choice of high food safely standards under the EU or low food safety standards in any trade deal with the US. 'Project fear' was very real.
> 
> The TTIP nightmare will be our reality.
> 
> View attachment 318772


and right now we are still in the blumming EU............................................... hence my reply


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

MiffyMoo said:


> Remember the horse meat scandal?
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....scandal-guardian-investigation-public-secrecy


Absolutely, and all within the wonderful EU wasn't it. I only buy meant with that little British tractor on it now. Thankfully it's a British mark and not EU so will still be reliable after Brexit.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I don't eat a lot of meat, prefer fish, consequently I then buy better quality meat whenever we do have it, quite simple really it's what people have always done throughout the ages having meat free days in order to buy the better meats for when you do have it. Not only is it much better for you, but it reduces the reliances on meat as the only protein in a diet, there is no need to have meat for every meal.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> and right now we are still in the blumming EU............................................... hence my reply


So you're not concerned about the consequences of leaving it? We were warned it would be a race to the bottom for our food safety, for the environment & animal welfare if we left.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Absolutely, and all within the wonderful EU wasn't it. I only buy meant with that little British tractor on it now. Thankfully it's a British mark and not EU so will still be reliable after Brexit.


No it wont be reliable after brexit. If we sign a trade deal with the USA our standards will fall in line with theirs.

..


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> No it wont be reliable after brexit. If we sign a trade deal with the USA our standards will fall in line with theirs.
> 
> ..


No it won't.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> So you're not concerned about the consequences of leaving it? We were warned it would be a race to the bottom for our food safety, for the environment & animal welfare if we left.


No not yet. It's happening. I'm not going to change that, neither are u, like it or not - ITS HAPPENING. How do you always manage to pipe up as soon as brexit is mentioned? I was talking about the choices we should be making regarding food, specifically the welfare of our meat, and how if we can't afford the cost of higher welfare we should look at the quantity we eat, which I shall continue to do before, during, and after brexit.


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## planete (Jan 21, 2012)

We cannot know what the terms of a trade deal with the USA will be in advance but I am not optimistic. A government which can ally itself with the DUP seems very ready to jettison some basic principles of decency to achieve its goals by any means.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> No it wont be reliable after brexit. If we sign a trade deal with the USA our standards will fall in line with theirs.
> 
> ..


Do you actually know any farmers????


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> No it won't.


Yes it will !!!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> Yes it will !!!


Ooooh no it won't!!!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> No it won't.


I fear you're going to be eating your words - (as well as the sub standard food)



Lexiedhb said:


> No not yet. It's happening. I'm not going to change that, neither are u, like it or not - ITS HAPPENING. How do you always manage to pipe up as soon as brexit is mentioned? I was talking about the choices we should be making regarding food, specifically the welfare of our meat, and how if we can't afford the cost of higher welfare we should look at the quantity we eat, which I shall continue to do before, during, and after brexit.


I pipe up because this affects me & my loved ones, nature, animals - it will affect everything i care about.



Lexiedhb said:


> Do you actually know any farmers????


I should do, I grew up in a farming village.

Here is what the highly respected CIWF's Philip Lymbery tweeted earlier today


*Philip Lymbery*‏@*philip_ciwf* 4h4 hours ago

Worrying findings from today's House of Lords report published on Brexit and farm animal welfare 
https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2017/07/could-brexit-lower-animal-welfare-standards

.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I have a solution for this. If you are so worried about imported American products appearing on our shop shelves here in the UK (I hate to tell you to a certain extent we already do have American products on our shop shelves). Simple. Buy British and back our countries products eg Beef, Lamb, Chicken, Pork, Turkey, Potatoes, Vegetables, Fruit, eggs, milk etc and support our farmers. I do.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> I have a solution for this. If you are so worried about American food appearing on our shop shelves here in the UK (I hate to tell you to a certain extent we already do have American products on our shop shelves). Simple. Buy British and back out countries products eg Beef, Lamb, Chicken, Pork, Turkey, Potatoes, Vegetables, Fruit, eggs, milk etc and support our farmers. I do.


Its not simple. You don't seem to understand the concern is OUR standards will fall in line the USA's. We wont know what we're eating. They don't even have to label GM food in the USA.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> I have a solution for this. If you are so worried about imported American products appearing on our shop shelves here in the UK (I hate to tell you to a certain extent we already do have American products on our shop shelves). Simple. Buy British and back our countries products eg Beef, Lamb, Chicken, Pork, Turkey, Potatoes, Vegetables, Fruit, eggs, milk etc and support our farmers. I do.


We buy our free range meat from http://www.donaldrussell.com/ and we always buy free range eggs and British vegatables.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

"Therefore, the Government's wish for the UK to become a global leader in free trade is not necessarily compatible with its desire to maintain high animal welfare standards"
http://www.parliament.uk/business/c...ent-2017/brexit-farm-animal-report-published/

.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Its not simple. You don't seem to understand the concern is OUR standards will fall in line the USA's. We wont know what we're eating. They don't even have to label GM food in the USA.


And you think farmers- the ones who actually give a toss, who have worked for generations for good welfare etc are simply going to go " oh ok, let's pump animals full of hormones, crate them 24/7, chlorinate the meat once it's been slaughtered in an obscene manner, cos we can now" ? Doesn't say much for your opinion of DECENT farmers


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> And you think farmers- the ones who actually give a toss, who have worked for generations for good welfare etc are simply going to go " oh ok, let's pump animals full of hormones, crate them 24/7, chlorinate the meat once it's been slaughtered in an obscene manner, cos we can now" ? Doesn't say much for your opinion of DECENT farmers


So how are our farmers going to compete?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> So how are our farmers going to compete?


Exactly the same way they do now. You can get 2 whole chickens in tesco for a fiver. Or a free range much smaller bird for £9......


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Its not simple. You don't seem to understand the concern is OUR standards will fall in line the USA's. We wont know what we're eating. They don't even have to label GM food in the USA.


But I see the remainers are jumping the gun again. Dr Liam Fox MP says he is going to the US to open *talks *with US negotiators to see what a US-UK trade deal will be like. In the remainers eyes we are striking a deal with them. I hate to break the news to you but remainers have been quick off the mark to highlight this in the other thread. We cannot even open negotiations with the US until the UK leaves the EU so that's after 2019 and that depends on what type of deal we get with the EU. So nothing in the immediate future is going to cause our farming standards, animal welfare standards, environmental standards etc to drop. Next we'll be reading on the news somebody will be taking the Government to court over this meeting Dr Liam Fox MP has had in the US when *nothing as of yet has happened* *except a conversation has taken place*. We aren't even in negotiations with the US, we cannot negotiate with anyone until after we leave the EU. So why jump the gun so to speak?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Exactly the same way they do now. You can get 2 whole chickens in tesco for a fiver. Or a free range much smaller bird for £9......


Perhaps you should read the key findings on the actual brexit farm welfare report. The welfare of those '2 for a fiver' chickens would get even lower.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Another point I'd like to make the EU are also wanting a trade deal with the US. So why is it ok for them to have a trade deal with the US and the UK not? They'd have to drop there standards to strike a deal with the US as well to secure a deal. They are only jealous the UK might secure a deal with the US quicker than them that's what I have understand from this.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> But I see the remainers are jumping the gun again. Dr Liam Fox MP says he is going to the US to open *talks *with US negotiators to see what a US-UK trade deal will be like. In the remainers eyes we are striking a deal with them. I hate to break the news to you but remainers have been quick off the mark to highlight this in the other thread. We cannot even open negotiations with the US until the UK leaves the EU so that's after 2019 and that depends on what type of deal we get with the EU. So nothing in the immediate future is going to cause our farming standards, animal welfare standards, environmental standards etc to drop. Next we'll be reading on the news somebody will be taking the Government to court over this meeting Dr Liam Fox MP has had in the US when *nothing as of yet has happened* *except a conversation has taken place*. We aren't even in negotiations with the US, we cannot negotiate with anyone until after we leave the EU. So why jump the gun so to speak?


That is quite right. On the pessimistic side it does highlight the fact that trade negotiations with the US might not be quite as easy as had sometimes been suggested (not least by Trump!), but on the optimistic side, the potential problem areas can be determined so that there is plenty of time to come up with solutions. That should at least make post-Brexit discussions quicker than they would otherwise have been.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> Another point I'd like to make the EU are also wanting a trade deal with the US. So why is it ok for them to have a trade deal with the US and the UK not? They'd have to drop there standards to strike a deal with the US as well to secure a deal. They are only jealous the UK might secure a deal with the US quicker than them that's what I have understand from this.


Good point.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Perhaps you should read the key findings on the actual brexit farm welfare report. The welfare of those '2 for a fiver' chickens would get even lower.


Not being a politician, or education minister, or chief in charge of the country/universe there is very little I can do about farmers who don't give a stuff other than refuse to buy their produce, and try and educate others to do the same.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> But I see the remainers are jumping the gun again. Dr Liam Fox MP says he is going to the US to open *talks *with US negotiators to see what a US-UK trade deal will be like. In the remainers eyes we are striking a deal with them. I hate to break the news to you but remainers have been quick off the mark to highlight this in the other thread. We cannot even open negotiations with the US until the UK leaves the EU so that's after 2019 and that depends on what type of deal we get with the EU. So nothing in the immediate future is going to cause our farming standards, animal welfare standards, environmental standards etc to drop. Next we'll be reading on the news somebody will be taking the Government to court over this meeting Dr Liam Fox MP has had in the US when *nothing as of yet has happened* *except a conversation has taken place*. We aren't even in negotiations with the US, we cannot negotiate with anyone until after we leave the EU. So why jump the gun so to speak?


The irony of this post 

Dr Liam Fox is a dangerous extremist who will have us locked into a trade deal with US at the first opportunity. He has 'connections' over there. We should all be extremely worried.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Not being a politician, or education minister, or chief in charge of the country/universe there is very little I can do about farmers who don't give a stuff other than refuse to buy their produce, and try and educate others to do the same.


If farmers cannot/do not compete with cheap US imports they will go out of business, its as simple as that. Within the EU its a level playing field.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> If farmers cannot/do not compete with cheap US imports they will go out of business, its as simple as that. Within the EU its a level playing field.


So how are all the organic, free range, niche, rare breed, farmers surviving now? If people educated themselves on where their food came from and stopped buying the "cheap and nasty" there wouldn't be such a huge welfare issue. Being in the EU does not support high enough welfare for me, look at the Danes and their pigs in the past.......


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> So how are all the organic, free range, niche, rare breed, farmers surviving now? If people educated themselves on where their food came from and stopped buying the "cheap and nasty" there wouldn't be such a huge welfare issue. Being in the EU does not support high enough welfare for me, look at the Danes and their pigs in the past.......


And yet being out of the EU will mean a race to the bottom for animal welfare here. The findings show many people wont/cant afford to put welfare first. Livestock will suffer more - nature will suffer.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> And yet being out of the EU will mean a race to the bottom for animal welfare here. The findings show many people wont/cant afford to put welfare first. Livestock will suffer more - nature will suffer.


You believe. It's yet to be seen. Like I said imo if you can't buy nicely reared meat daily, eat less of it - you seem to be preaching to the wrong person.....


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> (not least by Trump!)


I don't think just with Trump as the EU and US could not strike a deal under Obama.

Again with the EU-UK trade negotiations I think the EU will want the UK to keep the current animal welfare standards, keep improving the environmental standards in the UK under the Paris agreement (something the USA has pulled out of), farming standards etc with whoever we strike a trade deal with outside of the EU. I am just saying they may put this as a clause in the EU-UK trade deal. But we don't know that yet so it is me speculating this, but it could happen.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I cannot possibly go through twenty pages of replies and suspect if I did, then I'll be drawn into old argument with the usual cliques but can I say two things.

1. A packet of seeds and a windowsill are all it takes to grow a salad. Add pots and you can at least have a herb garden and a salad patch. Currently in our Brexit limbo a bag of lettuce from Spain has a journey of 958 miles. It takes 127 calories of energy (in the form of aviation fuel) to import one calorie of lettuce across the Atlantic. When you say cost @Phoenix Rising I take it you would sensibly make into account the cost to our planet not just our pockets.

2. We have a thread on clean eating. I said on there, and I'll say it here, we need to take responsibility for our food. If the feeling was good old Blightly and our food, then we need to think about what made that good. Growing our own and being accountable but there has to be welfare standards too and as consumers we have the power to influence that.

Give up meat for a few days a week, shop at a market late on a Friday night for really good bargains, boil a kettle and have coffee in a shop as a treat, use up leftovers, grown your own and cook from scratch all help. A Girl called Jack cookbooks have lots of frugal tips. I used to spend a under tenner on my food each week because that was all I had, now I'm part time I'm really cutting back again and managed to chop £20 off my weekly bill. No affect here because I already buy wisely and so can you.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> I cannot possibly go through twenty pages of replies and suspect if I did, then I'll be drawn into old argument with the usual cliques but can I say two things.
> 
> 1. A packet of seeds and a windowsill are all it takes to grow a salad. Add pots and you can at least have a herb garden and a salad patch. Currently in our Brexit limbo a bag of lettuce from Spain has a journey of 958 miles. It takes 127 calories of energy (in the form of aviation fuel) to import one calorie of lettuce across the Atlantic. When you say cost @Phoenix Rising I take it you would sensibly make into account the cost to our planet not just our pockets.
> 
> ...


Sadly the majority of consumers simply don't care, or have very little idea of what they are actually buying.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> You believe. It's yet to be seen. Like I said imo if you can't buy nicely reared meat daily, eat less of it - you seem to be preaching to the wrong person.....


I'm stating that a deal with the US will not only be detrimental to us & our environment but to animal welfare. That isn't preaching.

The repeal bill removes this protection for animals. Do you honestly believe animals are going to be better off?

https://action.ciwf.org.uk/ea-actio...&ea.campaign.id=74771&ea.tracking.id=05bb9ddb
*
UK's animals no longer recognised as sentient beings










*
By current European law, animals are recognised as sentient beings, acknowledging their ability to feel pain, suffer and also experience joy. No one who has seen a cow going outside for the first time after a winter indoors, a hen dust bathing, or a pig wallowing in a fresh patch of mud would disagree with that. The law says that as animals are sentient beings, full regard must be given to their welfare when creating new legislation or regulations.

Securing this status for animals was a massive step forward for animal welfare in 1997. It was the biggest campaign Compassion has ever run. The recognition of animals as complex and intelligent creatures has been the cornerstone of European animal welfare legislation since that time, and the basis for so much of the progress we have made together.

So what's the problem?
The Repeal Bill, which moves all European law into UK law once we leave the EU, has left out this important protection. It is completely absent; both the recognition of animals as sentient beings, and the requirement for governments to pay "full regard" to their welfare.

Once the UK leaves the EU, we cannot be sure that future Governments will still treat animals as sentient beings. Please demand that the clause is brought into UK law.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Sadly the majority of consumers simply don't care, or have very little idea of what they are actually buying.


I know and it ends up with threads like this. I get the line - lucky you have the places to buy - but even on a holiday I manage to avoid a supermarket!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I'm stating that a deal with the US will not only be detrimental to us & our environment but to animal welfare. That isn't preaching.
> 
> The repeal bill removes this protection for animals. Do you honestly believe animals are going to be better off?
> 
> ...


But you are speculating. I haven't stated welfare will go up, down or sideways because right now we simply DON'T know. I do know that if people stopped buying crappy meat that WOULD have an effect on welfare standards


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> But you are speculating. I haven't stated welfare will go up, down or sideways because right now we simply DON'T know. I do know that if people stopped buying crappy meat that WOULD have an effect on welfare standards


The repeal bill removes a major protection for animals & you don't know if welfare will go up or down? Blimey.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Exactly the same way they do now. You can get 2 whole chickens in tesco for a fiver. Or a free range much smaller bird for £9......


and I know which I'd buy and it wouldn't be the two for a fiver.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> and I know which I'd buy and it would be the two for a fiver.


Hence welfare in this country will never increase. There is consumer demand for cheap, regardless of how it means that animal has lived.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> and I know which I'd buy and it would be the two for a fiver.


So it doesn't matter to you how the animal is treated, raised, or slaughtered?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Hence welfare in this country will never increase. There is consumer demand for cheap, regardless of how it means that animal has lived.


Animal welfare standards could increase if we had a progressive government, and as poor as our standards are now, they are much, much higher than in countries such as the USA. Which is why people are very concerned by the prospect of a trade deal.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Peter Stefanovic has done an excellent video on what it means for our food. It isn't just meat we need to be worried about.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> and I know which I'd buy and it *wouldn't *be the two for a fiver.





Lexiedhb said:


> Hence welfare in this country will never increase. There is consumer demand for cheap, regardless of how it means that animal has lived.





ouesi said:


> So it doesn't matter to you how the animal is treated, raised, or slaughtered?


Haha poor HP - one typo and everyone sees it :Bag:Bag


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> Haha poor HP - one typo and everyone sees it :Bag:Bag


Phew......


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

ouesi said:


> So it doesn't matter to you how the animal is treated, raised, or slaughtered?


Sorry spelling error, I've changed it now, it should have read *wouldn't* be the cheap ones.
If you read my post further back you'll see I only buy free range.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Our animal welfare standards are already better than most of the EU countries and have been for many years. You only have to look at Spain, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey etc .etc .etc.
We led the EU by the nose in the welfare of pigs. Dog and equine welfare is appaling in some EU countries
If the EU couldn't get us to lower our animal welfare standards, I can't see that any other single country will be able to do so


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Awesome. It's all over the news. The British Public will have kittens over chemicals, bleach and antibiotics in their dinner, let alone genetically modified triffids from America. At least they haven't managed to sneak them in.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2017)

Happy Paws said:


> Sorry spelling error, I've changed it now, it should have read *wouldn't* be the cheap ones.
> If you read my post further back you'll see I only buy free range.


Ah! Gotcha 

Unfortunately I do know too many people who simply don't care about the animal's welfare or the quality of the food they're eating (or feeding their families) and I try to engage them in conversation and figure out why these things don't matter. I usually get the brush off, "we're all going to die of something" type response...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Fox Hunting in France

Bull fighting Spain

Song birds hunters(legal) in various EU countries,while they'll tell you that it's illegal, all you have to do is apply for a license. 

Badger digging is also still legal in many EU countries France and Germany being just two


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Then there's fur farming, which we banned many many years ago 
http://www.furfreealliance.com/wp-c...al-legislation-on-fur-farming-in-Europe-1.pdf

"There is no specific legislation for the welfare of animals kept for fur in many EU countries such as Estonia, France, Greece and Poland, or the legislation is very weak such as is the case in Spain."


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> Our animal welfare standards are already better than most of the EU countries and have been for many years. You only have to look at Spain, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey etc .etc .etc.
> We led the EU by the nose in the welfare of pigs. Dog and equine welfare is appaling in some EU countries


Tukey is not an EU country, highly unlikely to be either despite leave's push to frighten people about it. Thanks for demonstrating how the UK has control of it's own rules and regulations. Leaving the EU means we cannot push to raise animal welfare standards throughout the EU. You are unable to state why that is a good thing.



> If the EU couldn't get us to lower our animal welfare standards, I can't see that any other single country will be able to do so


Quite easy.. trade deals and a poor starting negotiation position for those trade deals. Cheap imports vs costs to produce for native producers. Imports to the EU need to match the standards of the EU as the EU can negotiate from a strong position.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The Eu has got nothing to do with bull fighting in Spain and France. We'll still be trading with the Eu and we can we can still join with our neighbours and International bodies who are also campaigning on animal (and human) welfare issues. No one needs to be a member of the Eu for that. 

Maybe we can ban live exports to start with. Europe's record on live export is appalling. In the Eu we were unable to ban it. Outside of the Eu, we can, and the sooner the better. I believe the only political parties campaigning on this issue in the uk were the Greens and UKIP though.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Our animal welfare standards are already better than most of the EU countries and have been for many years. You only have to look at Spain, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey etc .etc .etc.
> We led the EU by the nose in the welfare of pigs. Dog and equine welfare is appaling in some EU countries
> If the EU couldn't get us to lower our animal welfare standards, I can't see that any other single country will be able to do so


Our animal welfare legislation is already falling apart due to us leaving the EU. This government does not care about humans never mind animals. You've said on many occasions you trust CIWF.

*Compassion*‏Verified [email protected]*ciwf* Jul 24

The UK's animals risk losing their legal status as sentient beings. We cannot let this happen. Take action >> http://bit.ly/2ucEWuR










*Compassion*‏Verified [email protected]*ciwf* 14h14 hours ago

House of Lords report warns UK farmers could be undermined by imports of cheap lower welfare meat and milk. http://bit.ly/2uTrhLW

.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> It would have been a question I asked prior to placing a parent there. Or if it changed whilst there, but they were really happy, with every other aspect I'd ask for them to be fed vegetarian, unless of course said parent still had all their marbles, then it would be up to them


Sorry I asked a question then buggered off out for the rest of the day! Ah I see you would be in a position where social funding is not an issue so would have the choice of any residential care home, yes in that case I can see why you would be able to insist on knowing where the food they provide is sourced and make chose a care home based on that. Unfortunately my experience is with care funded at least partially by LA, we don`t get a great deal of choice on care homes, only the ones within budget are offered and of course only those suitable for the right type of care needed. I`m afraid making a choice based on where the care homes sourced their food was just not realistic in my experience.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

3dogs2cats said:


> Sorry I asked a question then buggered off out for the rest of the day! Ah I see you would be in a position where social funding is not an issue so would have the choice of any residential care home, yes in that case I can see why you would be able to insist on knowing where the food they provide is sourced and make chose a care home based on that. Unfortunately my experience is with care funded at least partially by LA, we don`t get a great deal of choice on care homes, only the ones within budget are offered and of course only those suitable for the right type of care needed. I`m afraid making a choice based on where the care homes sourced their food was just not realistic in my experience.


 I don't know what my financial position will be if the time comes....., Can still ask the questions though. Actually read the other post above - not by me, budget is more likely to be spent on quality food. And there is always the option of asking for vegetarian meals wherever you are.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Live export and the Eu

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...u-animals-subject-to-abuse-illegal-conditions

http://www.countrylife.co.uk/articles/148648-148648

One of our ports tried to ban live export, they hated seeing it, but the Eu stopped them and fined the council.

Of course we could have stayed in and tried for an Eu wide ban, good luck with that, but I don't think the Eu is much better than the US on animal welfare issues. Unfortunately for meat eaters, the only way to be sure your food hasn't suffered is to give it up.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> Live export and the Eu
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...u-animals-subject-to-abuse-illegal-conditions
> 
> ...


Shame the WTO rules also potentially removes the possibilty isn't it. Live animal export could be claimed as an exception to the normal rules under the banner of maintaining "public morals" (as used by Australia). Depends on what else is going on and how it is implemented. Removing the idea that animals are sentient etc is hardly the way to argue it's due to public morals. Simply leaving the EU does not mean we can simply ban live exports. Add to that the need for "trade deals" and a poorer negotiating position. Even if we can, doesn't mean we will.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not saying we will ban it. We can, but it'll be difficult and the government will have to want to. I'm saying don't think animal produce from the Eu is guaranteed to have been any happier than animal produce from the US, or anywhere else. It's all about the money. Unless you buy locally and know the farm your meat came from, you can't really know how it was raised or treated. I'd be preaching to the converted on here though.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> We can


With my point being not necessarily. WTO trade rules may well prevent the UK from banning live imports especially if the government weakens existing legislation. At least with the EU people had more of a say in direction than they will have with the WTO.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Goblin said:


> With my point being not necessarily. WTO trade rules may well prevent the UK from banning live imports especially if the government weakens existing legislation. At least with the EU people had more of a say in direction than they will have with the WTO.


We can.

As the Eu stands it would be 100% impossible. A port already tried it and got us slapped with a fine. The Eu are not going to ban live export in the foreseeable future. It's too lucrative.

Outside the Eu there is a chance and as we're leaving the Eu, might as well lobby for that chance. I've been a supporter of groups lobbying for the ban (worldwide) for years. I'm not stopping now. New Zealand managed it, they didn't sit back and say there's no point did they?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> We can.
> 
> As the Eu stands it would be 100% impossible.


Change is possible in the EU so not 100% impossible. Remind me again, how many exemptions from EU policies does the UK have. Trouble is the UK government would have to be onboard. The public would have had to push their MEP's etc etc.



> Outside the Eu there is a chance and as we're leaving the Eu, might as well lobby for that chance


So, We can becomes we have a chance... ignoring the WTO rules and regulations. Government would have to show it's morally objectionable which they can't easily do if they change the status of livestock to non-sentient beings can they. Yes Australia did it but not without a fight. All you've done is changed the battlefield. Changed it to one where you actually have no say in the process.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I didn't change anything. The British voters did. Live transport was always a big issue for me. I'd like to see an end to it worldwide and continue to support lobby groups that have that aim. In the meantime, animal welfare in the uk will remain an issue for me and as we are coming out of the Eu I will support change in the Uk. It could be that a trade deal with the Eu will still block a unilateral ban anyway. I think it's important to raise it and for successive governments to know that at least some people give a damn about it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> The Eu has got nothing to do with bull fighting in Spain and France


No, but they've done nothing to stop it or the fur farms or the Badger baiting have they?
At least the UK has banned several of the practices still operational and legal within the EU. I'm just pointing out that the UK has a better animal welfare record than the EU overall.



Elles said:


> I'm saying don't think animal produce from the Eu is guaranteed to have been any happier than animal produce from the US


Exactly, but we shouldn't sit on our laurels about animal welfare, whoever we are dealing with.
https://www.farminguk.com/News/UK-will-not-import-chlorinated-chicken-says-Gove_47052.html
"Mr Gove said all members of the government were 'agreed' that animal welfare standards will not be
diluted."

"Michael Gove has today given a firm answer - chlorinated chicken will not be part of any UK-US trade deal."


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

rona said:


> "Michael Gove has today given a firm answer - chlorinated chicken will not be part of any UK-US trade deal."


Liam Fox, on the other hand, is quite happy with it and refused to rule it out.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-says-britain-will-not-accept-us-chlorinated/

And will either of those two still be in government when we negotiate a trade deal with the US? I wonder.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> No, but they've done nothing to stop it or the fur farms or the Badger baiting have they?
> At least the UK has banned several of the practices still operational and legal within the EU. I'm just pointing out that the UK has a better animal welfare record than the EU overall.


Yep. My point was that staying in the Eu to improve animal welfare is, imho, pointless. The Eu has no control over the killing of animals for sport and its history demonstrates that animal welfare is at best unimportant to it, other than maybe how it relates to human health. It took over 10 years after us to ban veal crates and the lot of the calf isn't much better anyway. We can lobby on animal welfare from outside the Eu just as effectively (ineffectually) as inside. We could buy more from New Zealand who have banned live export.

My crystal ball suggests that given time and incompetence (deliberate?) the lib dems may yet get their wish.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> We can lobby on animal welfare from outside the Eu just as effectively (ineffectually) as inside.


I think it will be more effectively, particularly within our own borders, but also with more control over what comes in, we have at least a chance to influence more outside too


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> "Michael Gove has today given a firm answer - chlorinated chicken will not be part of any UK-US trade deal."


Gove is promising anything which makes headlines at the moment. He also promised 350million a week to the NHS if we left the EU. Remind me again.. what is he minister of.. seem to remember it's not trade.



Elles said:


> Yep. My point was that staying in the Eu to improve animal welfare is, imho, pointless. The Eu has no control over the killing of animals for sport and its history demonstrates that animal welfare is at best unimportant to it, other than maybe how it relates to human health. It took over 10 years after us to ban veal crates and the lot of the calf isn't much better anyway. We can lobby on animal welfare from outside the Eu just as effectively (ineffectually) as inside. We could buy more from New Zealand who have banned live export.


Ignoring the difference between having a forum so you can be heard and not being heard becoming isolationist. It may have taken time but the EU has been pushed on animal welfare by the UK. You've now lost that voice. So much better for EU animal welfare isn't it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't think the uk is as important as you say. We could address animal welfare issues in the Uk outside of the Eu and still lobby. Sometimes setting an example is more successful than just talking.

http://www.eurogroupforanimals.org/


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> I don't think the uk is as important as you say. We could address animal welfare issues in the Uk outside of the Eu and still lobby. Sometimes setting an example is more successful than just talking.
> 
> http://www.eurogroupforanimals.org/


Even though we are using the opportunity of brexit to weaken rules within the UK...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Even though we are using the opportunity of brexit to weaken rules within the UK...


Who is 'we'? If we're weakening the rules as part of Brexit, then we wouldn't be lobbying for improved rules inside the Eu either would we?

This We are currently having a fit at the government and insisting standards are maintained and improved upon. If they keep it up, you and the lib dems may yet get your wish. As with RPH, the lib dems had more policies I agreed with, although I voted green. A second referendum actually wouldn't bother me personally at all. I'd rather see it confirmed that people do want to go through with it. Given a little more time and where we can have more of an idea of what our government are actually doing with the opportunity.

The conspiracists (and some hard left) see any failure or upset as deliberate, as the majority of the wealthy and government want to stay in and Brussels would like to keep us. As we aren't staying in, then the government might want standards lowered so they can make more money from trade with the USA instead. It would probably mean some compromise with other trade to get it.

It's up to us to prove the conspiracists wrong, but if it is so, to not let them get away with it. If people didn't care about it, it wouldn't be all over the news.


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## Creativecat (Dec 20, 2016)

I feel we are just going to be punished for wanting what we voted for . Looking today how most of my shopping has increased I just feel the manafactures have got cart blanch to charge what they want now and blaming brexit which is utter nonsence but the consumer just won't buy thoes goods I guess 
It's funny down tescos in there staff shop they was charging 10p a tin for dented branded soups and the manager said oh no we must put them up to 60p all the staff complained but they carried on regardless for a month then all the tins not sold got so many they returned them bk to 10p . I think the consumer will dictate to a degree if things go beyond there budjet and weekley costs


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Creativecat said:


> I feel we are just going to be punished for wanting what we voted for .


This is what you voted for if you voted to leave. The pound losing value and the result was all part of project fear remember? People decided to label it so they could dismiss it rather than look at the possibilities and the facts. 40% of food is imported and cost more. What does logic say will happen to prices?



Elles said:


> It's up to us to prove the conspiracists wrong, but if it is so, to not let them get away with it. If people didn't care about it, it wouldn't be all over the news.


Good luck with that, you've lost some tools to hold the government to account. Doubt if a GE is going to be decided on animal welfare issues  Badger Cull only one example. Remind me again, who is still in power? As for chicken familiarisation will mean the issue is forgotten.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

So on the one hand we should stay in the Eu because we are the catalyst for change. I've already cited veal crates. Otoh we don't care about animals and things will now get far worse for them. Of course the Eu had nothing to do with foxhunting, and chickens don't care if they're bleached once they're dead. 

The co-op and one other supermarket are already promoting that they now sell only British meat. Probably when we're out and get a good deal on New Zealand lamb, they will also promote NZ. I can't see bleached chicken as being much of a promotion and look what happened over pink slime.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

On saying that, if people really don't care about it, it's not up to me. Just as I accepted the foxhunting and the Brexit vote, if a majority think destroying the planet and eating bleached chicken is fine, there's not much I can do about it.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> I can't see bleached chicken as being much of a promotion and look what happened over pink slime.


You are ignoring something really basic. Price. Also notice you fail to say how you are going to hold the government to "account" when the only way to do so is through a general election where any single issue is normally "lost".


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If we can't control our own government, can't see us having much effect on the Eu. If people care more about price than anything else, who am I to change them? I don't think people should eat meat at all. I've got no chance of that coming to pass. Isn't there some saying about changing things you can and putting up with what you can't? I'm not really sure what you'd like me to do? We're leaving the Eu and I'll do what I can based on that fact and try to persuade people not to give up. You sound very defeatist @Goblin


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Who is 'we'? If we're weakening the rules as part of Brexit, then we wouldn't be lobbying for improved rules inside the Eu either would we?
> 
> This We are currently having a fit at the government and insisting standards are maintained and improved upon. If they keep it up, you and the lib dems may yet get your wish. As with RPH, the lib dems had more policies I agreed with, although I voted green. A second referendum actually wouldn't bother me personally at all. I'd rather see it confirmed that people do want to go through with it. Given a little more time and where we can have more of an idea of what our government are actually doing with the opportunity.
> 
> ...


The UK were a powerful voice in the EU, the tory government preferred to use our voice to benefit corporate interests rather then for social & environmental good.

The tories are a bunch of duplicitous liars. How on earth can we stop them locking us into a trade deal with the US? 'Take Britain back'? we will be at the mercy of powerful corporations. I remember some people on the referendum thread saying they were voting brexit for fear of TTIP. Well what about TISA? Do people really believe things are going to be better off out of the EU & in servitude to the bloated corpse of corporate America?

A few articles on what a trade deal with the US means for the UK. 'TTIP on Steroids.'


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> No, but they've done nothing to stop it or the fur farms or the Badger baiting have they?
> At least the UK has banned several of the practices still operational and legal within the EU. I'm just pointing out that the UK has a better animal welfare record than the EU overall.
> 
> Exactly, but we shouldn't sit on our laurels about animal welfare, whoever we are dealing with.
> ...


If the eu are so good at stamping out animal abuse then why is there still bullfighting in Spain there was pictures the other day of a bull with a dog tied to it.

Didn't necessarily quote you for what you had said Rona just bringing up the EU and reminding everyone how much they care for animals


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The uk were a powerful voice in the Eu. Given we're all a greedy bunch of no good animal abusers, best for the rest of the world that we're out. We are brexiting. 

If this government sell us down the river and people start dying, they'll never get in again. People didn't even accept granny's house going for a burton, or a few pence on self employed NI. You think that they'll accept the NHS being sold to America, when the German government buying a rail franchise contributed towards Brexit?

Liam Fox might be losing the plot, but I'm not convinced that every Tory MP is a psychopath, or agrees with him. Self interest, if nothing else should put the brakes on a lot of these ideas. Fox isn't Kim Yong Un. He's not in charge of the uk. It's not just sceptical Tory MPs it would all have to get past, the DUP and Jeremy aren't keen either.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> The uk were a powerful voice in the Eu. Given we're all a greedy bunch of no good animal abusers, best for the rest of the world that we're out. We are brexiting.
> 
> If this government sell us down the river and people start dying, they'll never get in again. People didn't even accept granny's house going for a burton, or a few pence on self employed NI. You think that they'll accept the NHS being sold to America, when the German government buying a rail franchise contributed towards Brexit?
> 
> Liam Fox might be losing the plot, but I'm not convinced that every Tory MP is a psychopath, or agrees with him. Self interest, if nothing else should put the brakes on a lot of these ideas. Fox isn't Kim Yong Un. He's not in charge of the uk. It's not just sceptical Tory MPs it would all have to get past, the DUP and Jeremy aren't keen either.


Once a US/UK trade deal is signed there wont be a lot we can do about it i'm afraid. And lets not forget about the tories repeal bill which will give them power to bypass Parliament.

Fox is an extremely dangerous man - a tool of wealth & power for the Transatlantic dark money network . You should read George Monbiots chilling article on Fox, dark money & the UK & US hard right. We have an extreme right government. We should all be worried.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Gove is promising anything which makes headlines at the moment. .


 He's taking a leaf out of Corbyn's book


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Yeah, I read about dark money. It funded the dup with £250,000 for Brexit advertising in England. At least that's what's guessed from Ireland not having to say where their money comes from. Big kerfuffle about it. If it was £250 mil I could believe it. And think it mattered. If the dark money people have so many trillions already, why are they even bothered. We have a democracy. Unfortunately this stuff is so far out there no one will believe it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

What would you like us to do about it before it's signed btw? What are people afraid of all this doing about it?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Elles said:


> Yeah, I read about dark money. It funded the dup with £250,000 for Brexit advertising in England. At least that's what's guessed from Ireland not having to say where their money comes from. Big kerfuffle about it. If it was £250 mil I could believe it. And think it mattered. If the dark money people have so many trillions already, why are they even bothered. We have a democracy. Unfortunately this stuff is so far out there no one will believe it.


Shhhhh. They might be listening. They are into everything.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> Shhhhh. They might be listening. They are into everything.


OMG that's so funny and so true. 
It has to be right?
It's on film on the internet


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> He's taking a leaf out of Corbyn's book


I get the impression that Corbyn promises socialism, and then back-tracks when someone points out that we can't afford it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Yeah, I read about dark money. It funded the dup with £250,000 for Brexit advertising in England. At least that's what's guessed from Ireland not having to say where their money comes from. Big kerfuffle about it. If it was £250 mil I could believe it. And think it mattered. If the dark money people have so many trillions already, why are they even bothered. We have a democracy. Unfortunately this stuff is so far out there no one will believe it.


Well it should matter if you really do care about democracy - https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/br...mocracy?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Why are they even bothered? Because they want _their _best interests served. And the best interests of these powerful greedy billionaires driving brexit & behind the Trump campaign are not the best interests of the UK or US - or indeed the planet! A handful of the wealthiest psychopaths on earth are using their money to influence elections/referendums. This is what's behind Brexit. The EU is clamping down on corporate power as a block, these billionaires want us out!. Dark Money was used to generate & fuel disaffected voters - & the tax dodging billionaires who own right wing media did their bit. It paid off.

Al Gore joins some dots: Trump-Russia, Brexit, climate change, oil producers, dark money, fake news, disinformation. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...subverted-all-reason-al-gore?CMP=share_btn_tw

What do you mean by it exactly? _"I mean that those with access to large amounts of money and raw power," says Gore, "have been able to subvert all reason and fact in collective decision making. The __Koch brothers__ are the largest funders of climate change denial. And __ExxonMobil__ claims it has stopped, but it really hasn't. It has given a quarter of a billion dollars in donations to climate denial groups. It's clear they are trying to cripple our ability to respond to this existential threat_."

_One of Trump's first acts after his inauguration was to remove all mentions of climate change from federal websites. More overlooked is that one of Theresa May's first actions on becoming prime minister - within 24 hours of taking office - was to close the __Department for Energy and Climate Change__; subsequently donations from oil and gas companies to the Conservative party continued to roll in. And what is increasingly apparent is that the same think tanks that operate in the States are also at work in Britain, and climate change denial operates as a bridgehead: uniting the right and providing an entry route for other tenets of __ Alt-Right__ belief. And, it's this network of power that Gore has had to try to understand, in order to find a way to combat it_



Elles said:


> What would you like us to do about it before it's signed btw? What are people afraid of all this doing about it?


I dunno, what can we do now?. I guess the only hope of averting the oncoming disaster is if enough people who voted leave join forces with remainers & campaign for a 2nd election? The choice looks like the EU or corporate America? https://www.theguardian.com/comment...erica-writes-the-rules?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other I know which I prefer, hence my vote to remain. We were warned we were in grave danger from a TTIP style trade deal if we left. Naturally it was dismissed as project fear' - but here we are a deal looking ever more likely. Remainers are trying to raise awareness & campaigning, not much more we can do. We are being dragged out against all the best advice, but at least we wont have anything to reproach ourselves for when the country goes to the dogs.



rona said:


> OMG that's so funny and so true.
> It has to be right?
> It's on film on the internet


Tis a very good example why some of us prefer listen to trusted public figures, academics, scientists, NGOs :Smuggrin

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> I get the impression that Corbyn promises socialism, and then back-tracks when someone points out that we can't afford it.


We can afford it though. Can I ask you what he back tracked on Arnie?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*David Schneider*‏Verified [email protected]*davidschneider* 8h8 hours ago

That sound you can hear is yet another sector realising they've voted to punch themselves repeatedly in the face.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-james-dyson-earl-rosebery-cap-a7815871.html









Sir James Dyson's farming business was the biggest private recipient of EU basic payments in the UK in 2016, receiving £1.6 million, Greenpeace said Reuters
One in five of the biggest recipients of European farming subsidies in Britain are billionaires and millionaires on the Sunday Times Rich List, research suggests.

Rankings by Greenpeace of the 100 companies and landowners receiving the biggest basic payments under the Common Agricultural Policy shows 20 of them are wealthy enough to feature on the Rich List, up from 16 the year before.

It comes as the UK decides on the future of farming subsidies after Brexit, with Greenpeace calling for public money to support schemes that deliver public goods such as protecting wildlife, preventing flooding and producing sustainable food.

Billionaire Brexit backer Sir James Dyson's farming business was the biggest private recipient of EU basic payments in the UK in 2016, receiving £1.6 million, Greenpeace said.

New entrants on the environmental charity's top 100 subsidy recipients this year included the Earl of Rosebery, the Duke of Buccleuch and Earl Bathurst.

The Highland Wagyu beef farm owned by Mohsin Al-Tajir, the son of a billionaire former UAE ambassador to the UK, whose cattle are pampered in "zen-like" buildings, and whose luxury beef is used by Michelin star chefs, is also now in the top 100.

The ranking is an update by the environmental group from last year, which cross-references Government data to reveal billionaires and aristocrats are among the biggest recipients of the subsidies that are mostly paid for the amount of land they own.

They include the Duke of Northumberland, the Duke of Westminster, the Earl of Iveagh and the Guinness family, and the Queen.

*The 50 Best Farm Shops*
Companies belonging to wealthy overseas-based landowners including H&M chairman Carl Stefan Erling Persson and racehorse breeder Prince Khalid Abdullah al Saud also receive hundreds of thousands of pounds in subsidies, Greenpeace said.

Currently, the lion's share of the UK's £3 billion in subsidies from the EU goes to basic payments linked to land area, with some environmental requirements, while a proportion is paid to environmentally friendly farming and other schemes.

New Environment Secretary Michael Gove has said Brexit is a chance to get rid of bureaucracy and design a better system of supporting farmers that could better protect and enhance the environment.

Greenpeace UK's policy director Dr Doug Parr said: "It's simply indefensible that taxpayers' money is being used to bankroll huge subsidies going to billionaires largely on the basis of how much land they own.

*UK news in pictures*
"Public money should reward farmers for contributing to the public good, whether it's by producing sustainable food, building thriving rural economies, reducing flood risk or protecting our wildlife."

He said Mr Gove had his "work cut out" on reforming subsidies to improve environmental protection and food quality.

"Britain has never had a better opportunity to reshape our farming sector for the common good. Mr Gove should start laying the groundwork for it now," he said.


More about:


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

They must be really worried.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> "Public money should reward farmers for contributing to the public good, whether it's by producing sustainable food, building thriving rural economies, reducing flood risk or protecting our wildlife."
> 
> He said Mr Gove had his "work cut out" on reforming subsidies to improve environmental protection and food quality.
> 
> ...


So what exactly is Mr Gove going to come up with considering WTO and EU rules about subsidies from the UK government for a sector will be similar? If Gove can do something under WTO rules they surely could have done the same under the EU. EU subsidies were not compulsory after all. That's not allowing of course for the simple question of where all this new money is going to come from as well as the red tape and enforcement of new rules.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I would look into the ethics of James Dyson's farm and how much money he is losing on the actual farming business.
http://www.beeswaxdyson.com/
He is trying to make a sustainable business while protecting the environment.
His is the kind of money and mind that could work out how to do both for the benefit of the countryside

He will be one of the top recipients of any environmental payments

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/james-dyson-on-brexit-trade-and-being-britains-biggest-farmer/

He doesn't want the subsidies, he wants to get out


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> If we can't control our own government, can't see us having much effect on the Eu.


How much of a say do smaller groups have in the UK parliament? EU parliament is proportional representation so you have people like Anje Hazekamp of the Netherlands and Stefan Eck of Germany who are dedicated to animal rights. If people wanted to they could vote for animal right parties and be heard at the EU level. Instead you have people like Farage taking the pay but not actually doing anything positive.



> You sound very defeatist @Goblin


I simply look at facts and the government's record. Whilst the UK has led the way in animal rights in the distant past, many countries could now be considered to be far better. What has the government done.. Well they've repealed animal welfare codes within chicken farming, they are commited to the fox hunting ban and then there's the badger cull. Where they've made promises they have failed to deliver. A commitment in 2010 to reduce animal experiments for example. 2010-2013 number actually rose and when in 2014 a drop was reported it could well be due to the classic change of how the figures are collected. Smoke and mirrors rather than action. This government couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery. That's not pushing labour as I don't think they would really do better, that's simply looking at conservative's record.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> I would look into the ethics of James Dyson's farm and how much money he is losing on the actual farming business.
> http://www.beeswaxdyson.com/
> He is trying to make a sustainable business while protecting the environment.
> His is the kind of money and mind that could work out how to do both for the benefit of the countryside
> ...


He was one of the people who read that the NHS will get £350 mil a week on the side of a bus and backed Brexit.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I would look into the ethics of James Dyson's farm and how much money he is losing on the actual farming business.
> http://www.beeswaxdyson.com/
> He is trying to make a sustainable business while protecting the environment.
> His is the kind of money and mind that could work out how to do both for the benefit of the countryside
> ...


He's multi millionaire, he doesn't _need_ hand outs. Subsidies should be going to small farmers who actually need them.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> He's multi millionaire, he doesn't _need_ hand outs. Subsidies should be going to small farmers who actually need them.


No he doesn't, but he's currently one of the top recipients because of how much land he has. He didn't vote Brexit to get more money, or to kill his bees. Small, sustainable and environmentally sound farms dont get subsidies. There are a quite a few articles explaining why some farmers voted Brexit. Also articles about the New Zealand and other models who stopped with subsidies altogether.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Yes, there are a few lessons the uk government could learn from the German government and a few lessons uk people could learn from Europe generally. Keeping the cities clean and recycling for a start.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> I wo
> 
> He will be one of the top recipients of any environmental payments
> 
> ...


You need to get yourself off to specsavers! lol

From your own link 
_
Which is why he is a bit cheesed off - to put it mildly - with Michael Gove, the new Environment Secretary. He sucks his teeth and grimaces slightly at the mention of Gove's name. It might have something to do with the Environment Secretary's recent interview on The Andrew Marr Show, when he was asked if 'very, very wealthy farmers… like Sir James Dyson' will get less money after Brexit in the form of government subsidies. Gove's one-word answer was 'Yes.'

Dyson had met Gove a few times and says he was pleased with his appointment because 'he is articulate and speaks out and gets publicity'. But, he adds drily, 'we just need to get the right speaking out and the right publicity'.

This, it seems, is why I have been invited to tour the farm: not just to see what Dyson is up to, but to hear why B*ritain's farmers need subsidies to continue after Brexit - even if they are very, very rich.*_

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> No he doesn't, but he's currently one of the top recipients because of how much land he has. He didn't vote Brexit to get more money, or to kill his bees. Small, sustainable and environmentally sound farms dont get subsidies. There are a quite a few articles explaining why some farmers voted Brexit. Also articles about the New Zealand and other models who stopped with subsidies altogether.


Only Dyson knows his reason for voting out. He wasn't happy with EU for limiting the maximum power of vacuum cleaners to promote greater efficiency and reduce climate impact. Maybe this is the reason?.

I think CAP subsidies are a terrible policy, I'd like to hope we will get something a lot better but I wont hold my breath. For example, I cant see this government stopping subsidies to grouse moors who are trashing the environment & wiping out our wildlife. I'd love to be wrong though.


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## sidevalve (Jun 29, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> grouse moors who are trashing the environment


In YOUR opinion - the grouse shoots give hundreds of people employment and what exactly do you think might happen if the land suddenly became valueless - it would all return to nature - no it wouldn't it would either be left to turn into a wasteland without lots of money poured into it [and where would that be coming from ?] or maybe covered with those Oh so green wind farms.
BAN DRIVEN GROUSE MOORS - either the country pay its way or it dies - get over it. Or is it just a jealousy thing - I don't own a moor so I don't like anybody else having one and making money from it. Or maybe it's the 'bleat of the week' - there are calls for a badger cull will that be next or don't badgers matter ?
Seems to be a trend here - anyone with more than the 'accepted' amount of money must be evil no matter how they got it.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I've liked the idea of shooting grouse but as I always thought the killed birds were all used of food I never said anything about it, but now I find out some of them are just thrown away.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I've liked the idea of shooting grouse but as I always thought the killed birds were all used of food I never said anything about it, but now I find out some of them are just thrown away.


Grouse are worth far too much to throw away. A few may be wastage for various reasons, mainly damage by shot, landing or dog


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rona said:


> Grouse are worth far too much to throw away. A few may be wastage for various reasons, mainly damage by shot, landing or dog


Sorry, but I heard it on TV the other day and were saying they should make meals out of them and give it the food banks.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

They said the same about the foxhunting ban, gives loads of people employment and maintains the countryside can't ban foxhunting. No one lost their job over it and people who liked riding the horses didn't stop. Ban importing and rearing birds to shoot at and put government money into protecting the countryside instead of destroying it. People who enjoy shooting will shoot clays instead.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> Ban importing and rearing birds to shoot at and put government money into protecting the countryside instead of destroying it


Grouse are never imported. Pure home grown and wild stock only. They don't flourish if the moors aren't in peak condition


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> Grouse are never imported. Pure home grown and wild stock only. They don't flourish if the moors aren't in peak condition


''Tis why I said birds Rona.  The conservatives won't ban shooting of course, but it'll go in the end. Folk might as well look at diversifying to get ready. It'll take a bit longer than the foxhunting ban though. 'A bird was shot' doesn't have quite the same effect as 'A fox was torn apart alive by a pack of dogs, while bloodthirsty toffs watched on' does it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> ''Tis why I said birds Rona.  The conservatives won't ban shooting of course, but it'll go in the end. Folk might as well look at diversifying to get ready. It'll take a bit longer than the foxhunting ban though. 'A bird was shot' doesn't have quite the same effect as 'A fox was torn apart alive by a pack of dogs, while bloodthirsty toffs watched on' does it.


So, guaranteeing, pheasant, partridge and grouse raised in pens or even cages 

Until meat eating is banned too of course


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Sorry, but I heard it on TV the other day and were saying they should make meals out of them and give it the food banks.


Nowt up with that


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If the shooting crowd ban importing and rearing the birds to shoot at, they might get away with it. People seem to accept digging foxes out and shooting them, they'd probably not make too much fuss about birds being shot for conservation reasons and to eat.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> If the shooting crowd ban importing and rearing the birds to shoot at, they might get away with it. People seem to accept digging foxes out and shooting them, they'd probably not make too much fuss about birds being shot for conservation reasons and to eat.


I reckon they'll be a lot more home grown birds over the next couple of years. A great many still do rear their own or buy from local game farmers


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sidevalve said:


> In YOUR opinion - the grouse shoots give hundreds of people employment and what exactly do you think might happen if the land suddenly became valueless - it would all return to nature - no it wouldn't it would either be left to turn into a wasteland without lots of money poured into it [and where would that be coming from ?] or maybe covered with those Oh so green wind farms.
> BAN DRIVEN GROUSE MOORS - either the country pay its way or it dies - get over it. Or is it just a jealousy thing - I don't own a moor so I don't like anybody else having one and making money from it. Or maybe it's the 'bleat of the week' - there are calls for a badger cull will that be next or don't badgers matter ?
> Seems to be a trend here - anyone with more than the 'accepted' amount of money must be evil no matter how they got it.


What a load of shite. Doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, if you are a vile human being who gets off on hunting, shooting or culling badgers expect to hear many of us protesting about it. Its got nothing at all to do within jealousy and everything to do with being a decent human being. What in your opinion do the members of this forum view to be an "accepted amount of money"?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sidevalve said:


> In YOUR opinion - the grouse shoots give hundreds of people employment and what exactly do you think might happen if the land suddenly became valueless - it would all return to nature - no it wouldn't it would either be left to turn into a wasteland without lots of money poured into it [and where would that be coming from ?] or maybe covered with those Oh so green wind farms.
> BAN DRIVEN GROUSE MOORS - either the country pay its way or it dies - get over it. Or is it just a jealousy thing - I don't own a moor so I don't like anybody else having one and making money from it. Or maybe it's the 'bleat of the week' - there are calls for a badger cull will that be next or don't badgers matter ?
> Seems to be a trend here - anyone with more than the 'accepted' amount of money must be evil no matter how they got it.


My opinion happens to be supported by empirical evidence. Driven grouse moors are so intensively managed they are little more than mono cultures. To quote you - "_it would return to nature". _Absolutely it would, which is why there is a call to rewild them. Lots of money (OUR money!) is poured into to grouse moors for them to wreak havoc on the environment, create flooding downstream, exacerbate climate change - destroy our wildlife, in the case of the beautiful hen harrier persecute it to the brink of extinction!  Jealousy? lol No, its utter contempt for people who are cruel, who care only about making profit at the expense of our natural world & the future of our living planet. Badgers matter to me, I love them. Funnily I have the capacity to care about lots of things. I have nothing but respect & gratitude for wealthy people who have environmental & social values & who care about animals.



rona said:


> Grouse are worth far too much to throw away. A few may be *wastage* for various reasons, mainly damage by shot, landing or dog


Errgh 'wastage'. What a horribly cold term for a beautiful being.



rona said:


> Grouse are never imported. Pure home grown and wild stock only. They don't flourish if the moors aren't in peak condition


Peak condition?

Look at the state of this Its a degraded ecosystem Rona. The burning of heather destroys the peat which is an important carbon store, it creates flooding downstream. Grouse moors are an ecological catastrophe subsidised by tax payers - its an absolute scandal we pay for this & the mass slaughter of wildlife.





















As it was the fourth Hen Harrier Day today, I may as well take this opportunity to post about it. Not a single successful Hen Harrier nest on a driven grouse moors this year. ! https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...nests-in-england-none-on-driven-grouse-moors/


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> If the shooting crowd ban importing and rearing the birds to shoot at, they might get away with it. People seem to accept digging foxes out and shooting them, they'd probably not make too much fuss about birds being shot for conservation reasons and to eat.


Most of the people I know don't accept digging out foxes and shooting them. Its a vile thing to do. No game bird is shot for conservation reasons.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Most of the people I know don't accept digging out foxes and shooting them. Its a vile thing to do. No game bird is shot for conservation reasons.


No, but people generally who don't normally take any interest were up in arms about foxhunting. They don't go out with posters, signing petitions and posting all over Facebook about digging out foxes and shooting them.

People generally who aren't normally interested will imo take little interest in people shooting birds either, especially if the shooters say it's for conservation reasons (as in this thread) and that they eat them. If we have a particular interest in getting it banned, we can campaign on it, but I don't see the same horror about it, do you?

People don't like birds being raised in unnatural cages, especially cruelly raised abroad, so if the shooting crowd do away with that aspect, I don't think it'll stir joe public too much. Eventually the ban will come about if enough politicians get involved and I think it will be. At the moment with Brexit, I think we need to concentrate our MPs on other issues.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> No, but people generally who don't normally take any interest were up in arms about foxhunting. They don't go out with posters, signing petitions and posting all over Facebook about digging out foxes and shooting them.
> 
> People generally who aren't normally interested will imo take little interest in people shooting birds either, especially if the shooters say it's for conservation reasons (as in this thread) and that they eat them. If we have a particular interest in getting it banned, we can campaign on it, but I don't see the same horror about it, do you?
> 
> People don't like birds being raised in unnatural cages, especially cruelly raised abroad, so if the shooting crowd do away with that aspect, I don't think it'll stir joe public too much. Eventually the ban will come about if enough politicians get involved and I think it will be. At the moment with Brexit, I think we need to concentrate our MPs on other issues.


Point taken Elles . I think the reason for that is they can clearly see that fox hunting is a blatant act of cruelty done solely for fun where as digging out foxes to be shot is more likely to be seen as wildlife 'management'. People are often ignorant to the fact that killing foxes is unnecessary as it is pointless - and often digging out is done out of pleasure too.

A lot of us are trying to raise awareness about the terrible cruelty & destruction that goes with driven grouse moors - the word _is _getting out & the movement is growing thanks to high profile people such as Chris Packham. This is a relevant topic & a very important issue (our hen harrier is being pushed to the brink of extinction by these dreadful people), imo we should now be urging MPs to press for fairer more eco-friendly farming subsidies. We must stop subsidising some of the wealthiest people in country to destroy our natural heritage. If we want to save our environment & wildlife we need MPs to support the ban of driven grouse moors. My MP is on board with this.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2017)

Elles said:


> Yep. My point was that staying in the Eu to improve animal welfare is, imho, pointless. The Eu has no control over the killing of animals for sport and its history demonstrates that animal welfare is at best unimportant to it, other than maybe how it relates to human health. It took over 10 years after us to ban veal crates and the lot of the calf isn't much better anyway. We can lobby on animal welfare from outside the Eu just as effectively (ineffectually) as inside. We could buy more from New Zealand who have banned live export. My crystal ball suggests that given time and incompetence (deliberate?) the lib dems may yet get their wish.


It is true that animal welfare is nowhere near adequate in EU, but it is improving. Chickens get bigger cages, the lenght of live animal transport is shorter etc. That is not much, but then individual countries have always been able to do more (added laterm as I accidently deleted that word ) , crating is retricted for more than a couple of hours (unless for health reasons/travelling etc) etc.

But I am afraid, outside EU Britain has even less chances to create better laws for animals. as trade deals with US/Asia very rarely have any limits for animal abuse. This is an area we should join forces even after Brexit, as every step means less suffering for animals. Animals are not political, they are just the victims of bad politics, and we must put our differences aside to help them every possible way we know. There is so much to do, as we all know.


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## Road_Hog (Dec 8, 2008)

Talking of animal welfare, of which I am a great proponent, I hope people condemn the dhabihah (halal) slaughter of animals, which is barbaric.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Road_Hog said:


> Talking of animal welfare, of which I am a great proponent, I hope people condemn the dhabihah (halal) slaughter of animals, which is barbaric.


Over 80% animals slaughtered by dhabihah are pre-stunned, but schechita forbids it. Why do you not mention kosher? I haven't eaten meat for years & believe ALL slaughter houses should have CCTV monitoring as many creatures suffer horrifically, some deliberately abused.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Road_Hog said:


> Talking of animal welfare, of which I am a great proponent, I hope people condemn the dhabihah (halal) slaughter of animals, which is barbaric.


Really? Halal isn't any different to normal slaughter. Are you getting confused with kosher?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*US trade deal after Brexit could see milk and baby formula with cancer-causing toxins flood UK market*
US limits allow up to 20 times more poisonous aflatoxins than the stricter EU regulations

A post-Brexit trade deal with the US could see a massive increase in the amount of cancer-causing toxins in British milk and baby food, _The Independent _can reveal.

American regulations allow more than 20 times the quantity of harmful aflatoxins in food products, compared to the stricter regime imposed by the European Union.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-cancer-milk-aflatoxins-peanuts-a7877541.html


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Vanessa131 said:


> Halal isn't any different to normal slaughter.


That must mean that meat from all normally slaughtered animals (except Pigs) is actually Halal. That doesnt sound right. Why do we make a distinction then?


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Satori said:


> That must mean that meat from all normally slaughtered animals (except Pigs) is actually Halal. That doesnt sound right. Why do we make a distinction then?


Lots of people don'r understand halal, the slaughter is the same as any typical slaughter in the UK, stun and slit. A prayer is said afterwards, that is the only difference. I always find it odd that people cry out to ban this, yet they don't mention kosher that doesn't stun animals before the throat is slit as the animal must be conscious.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Vanessa131 said:


> Lots of people don'r understand halal, the slaughter is the same as any typical slaughter in the UK, stun and slit. A prayer is said afterwards, that is the only difference. I always find it odd that people cry out to ban this, yet they don't mention kosher that doesn't stun animals before the throat is slit as the animal must be conscious.


Interesting. I had understood that to produce Halal they didn't stun the animal first.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Siskin said:


> Interesting. I had understood that to produce Halal they didn't stun the animal first.


Halal food is food which is permissible or lawful according to traditional Islamic law. The description halal relates to both the type of food eaten and its method of preparation. For meat, the process requires a Muslim to recite a dedication, known as tasmiya or shahada, and can be either stunned or unstunned before slaughter.
Most halal meat in the UK is stunned before slaughter, if the animal wasn't stunned then it is labelled as such.

In kosher no animals are stunned to fit with Jewish law.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> Halal food is food which is permissible or lawful according to traditional Islamic law. The description halal relates to both the type of food eaten and its method of preparation. For meat, the process requires a Muslim to recite a dedication, known as tasmiya or shahada, and can be either stunned or *unstunned* before slaughter.
> Most halal meat in the UK is stunned before slaughter, if the animal wasn't stunned then it is labelled as such.
> 
> *In kosher no animals are stunned to fit with Jewish law*.


:Jawdrop:Woot


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Halal food is food which is permissible or lawful according to traditional Islamic law. The description halal relates to both the type of food eaten and its method of preparation. For meat, the process requires a Muslim to recite a dedication, known as tasmiya or shahada, and can be either stunned or unstunned before slaughter.
> Most halal meat in the UK is stunned before slaughter, if the animal wasn't stunned then it is labelled as such.
> .


I think about 84% of animals are stunned according to the RSPCA I understand that all halal meat must be labelled but not aware it must say if the animal has been stunned or not

.http://halalcertification.ie/halal/islamic-method-of-slaughtering/

Islamic law requires that animals intended for human consumption be slain in a certain manner. Halal slaughter is was one of the more humane methods available to the meat industry and the only method acceptable for Muslim consumers.

The conditions for Halal slaughter can be summarized as follows:


The animal to be slaughtered must be from the categories that are permitted for Muslims to eat.
The animal must be alive at the time of slaughter.
In general, all forms of stunning and unconsciousness of animals are disliked. However, if it is necessary to use these means to calm down or mitigate violence of animals, low voltage shock can be used on the head only for the durations and voltage as per given guidelines. Stunning through a device with a non-penetrating round head, in a way that does not kill the animal before its slaughter, is permitted, provided that certain conditions are adhered to. Please refer to DHCE Halal Standards for more details.
The animal must be slaughtered by the use of a sharp knife. The knife must not kill due to its weight. If it kills due to the impact the meat may not be permissible.
The windpipe (throat), food-tract (oesophagus) and the two jugular veins must be cut.
The slaughtering must be done in one stroke without lifting the knife. The knife should not be placed and lifted when slaughtering the animal.
Slaughtering must be done by a sane adult Muslim. Animals slaughtered by a Non Muslim will not be Halal.
The name of Allah must be invoked (mentioned) at the time of slaughtering by saying:
Bismillah Allahu Akbar. (In the Name of Allah; Allah is the Greatest.)
If at the time of slaughtering the name of anyone else other than Allah is invoked (i.e. animal sacrificed for him/her), then the meat becomes Haram "unlawful."
If a Muslim forgets to invoke the name of Allah at the time of slaughtering, the meat will remain Halal. However, if he intentionally does not invoke the name of Allah, the meat becomes Haram.
The head of the animal must not be cut off during slaughtering but later after the animal is completely dead, even the knife should not go deep into the spinal cord.
Skinning or cutting any part of the animal is not allowed before the animal is completely dead.
Slaughtering must be made in the neck from the front (chest) to the back.
The slaughtering must be done manually not by a machine, as one of the conditions is the intention, which is not found in a machine.
The slaughtering should not be done on a production line where pigs are slaughtered. Any instrument used for slaughtering pigs should not be used in the Halal slaughtering.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Vanessa131 said:


> Lots of people don'r understand halal, the slaughter is the same as any typical slaughter in the UK, stun and slit. A prayer is said afterwards, that is the only difference. I always find it odd that people cry out to ban this, yet they don't mention kosher that doesn't stun animals before the throat is slit as the animal must be conscious.


No, not all animals are stunned before halal slaughter , about 84% in the UK. It was much lower than that but it has improved in part due to pressure from animal groups .

i doubt if stunning is used all countries .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I think about 84% of animals are stunned according to the RSPCA I understand that all halal meat must be labelled but not aware it must say if the animal has been stunned or not


Yes that figure sounds about right. I don't think that there is anything in place to say that non stunned meat has to be labeled, but I do know that most supermarkets will label non stunned meat (due to customer demand I think) and Tesco's have a separate counter to keep it all separate.

To me halal is no more or less cruel than factory farmed meat...blessed or not.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Yes that figure sounds about right. I don't think that there is anything in place to say that non stunned meat has to be labeled, but I do know that most supermarkets will label non stunned meat (due to customer demand I think) and Tesco's have a separate counter to keep it all separate.


I'm getting confused. I need more Zzz.s ! 
You said "Most halal meat in the UK is stunned before slaughter, if the animal wasn't stunned then it is labelled as such. "

We have Hahal meat in the UK , some is stunned and some not stunned . What exactly has to be labeled according to the law or is it voluntarily ?

It could be that hahal is kept separate in supermarkets to keep within halal rules , its been said that some schools and takeaways etc buy only halal meat so it cant be contaminated , so to speak , by non halal so people have eaten halal meat with
out realising .



> To me halal is no more or less cruel than factory farmed meat...blessed or not.


halal is method is slaughter , its not the way the animal is kept .


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

According to the FSA, BBC and Defra it is voluntary. I also noticed the figure is 90% of meat is stunned in the UK.
It's not just religious slaughter that needs looking at, it is the entire factory farming industry (which includes slaughter).

But anyway this thread wasn't about religious slaughter, I was just pointing out that for the most part the only difference is that the meat is blessed.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> According to the FSA, BBC and Defra it is voluntary. I also noticed the figure is 90% of meat is stunned in the UK.
> It's not just religious slaughter that needs looking at, it is the entire factory farming industry (which includes slaughter).
> 
> But anyway this thread wasn't about religious slaughter, I was just pointing out that for the most part the only difference is that the meat is blessed.


By law, all animals have to be stunned, unless it's for Halal or Kosher .

I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but religious beliefs should not excuse you from the rule of law of the land, and most definitely shouldn't be an excuse for animal suffering.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@StormyThai


> According to the FSA, BBC and Defra it is voluntary. I also noticed the figure is 90% of meat is stunned in the UK.
> It's not just religious slaughter that needs looking at, it is the entire factory farming industry (which includes slaughter).
> 
> But anyway this thread wasn't about religious slaughter, I was just pointing out that for the most part the only difference is that the meat is blessed.


 I think it should be a law that halal and kosher as it could infringe on others beliefs and rights. 
Yes , I agree farming practices need looking at . if anyone is interested Compassion in world farming aims to end all factory farming https://www.ciwf.org.uk/about-us/

Still , seems odd to me that it's legal to let animal bleed to death until they are unconscious .
Even if its 90 % , that's 10% that suffer including kosher slaughter that must be thousands each year .
I'm sad that animal cruelty seems to be acceptable now .

Yes , OT now . should stick to the thread , Ive forgotten what thread it is


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> By law, all animals have to be stunned, unless it's for Halal or Kosher .I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but religious beliefs should not excuse you from the rule of law of the land, and most definitely shouldn't be an excuse for animal suffering.


Its an indictment of this day and age that you expect crap for saying this .


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> Its an indictment of this day and age that you expect to crap for saying this .


Yeah


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> By law, all animals have to be stunned, unless it's for Halal or Kosher .
> 
> I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but religious beliefs should not excuse you from the rule of law of the land, and most definitely shouldn't be an excuse for animal suffering.


I agree. Most halal meat is stunned before slaughter, kosher none is stunned 
I don't agree with unstunned animals at all btw, I was just responding to the comment that to produce halal you don't stun. That is kosher, the majority of halal is stunned in the UK.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

MiffyMoo said:


> By law, all animals have to be stunned, unless it's for Halal or Kosher .
> 
> I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but religious beliefs should not excuse you from the rule of law of the land, and most definitely shouldn't be an excuse for animal suffering.


a bit of a conundrum for the zealots


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Stun all and stop faffing about. If eating it is against your religious beliefs can I point out the plant based diet?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> Stun all and stop faffing about. If eating it is against your religious beliefs can I point out the plant based diet?


Better still. Shoot while it's out and about in the natural environment and totally unaware of what's coming and suffers no fear


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> Better still. Shoot while it's out and about in the natural environment and totally unaware of what's coming and suffers no fear


Considering how many animals are killed to feed people in the uk, the countryside would be rather noisy.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> Considering how many animals are killed to feed people in the uk, the countryside would be rather noisy.


Do you think many would actually shoot and skin their own meat?

Most wouldn't be able to get a shotgun license either, let alone a firearms license 

That would save a lot of animals wouldn't it?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> Better still. Shoot while it's out and about in the natural environment and totally unaware of what's coming and suffers no fear


That only works if you're a good shot !


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> That only works if you're a good shot !


You reckon there'd be more suffering than in a slaughterhouse?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> You reckon there'd be more suffering than in a slaughterhouse?


 No. it means if you're not a good shot you'd miss the pheasant or rabbit you're trying to kill so you'd have nothing to eat .


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> No. it means if you're not a good shot you'd miss the pheasant or rabbit you're trying to kill so you'd have nothing to eat .


At least the creature has a chance that way 

Would do some people good not to eat so much anyway


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> At least the creature has a chance that way
> 
> Would do some people good not to eat so much anyway




I don't think I'd have the heart to kill anything to eat it .
Id have to scrape dead badgers and foxes off the road to eat if I were that hungry .


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

rona said:


> Do you think many would actually shoot and skin their own meat?
> 
> Most wouldn't be able to get a shotgun license either, let alone a firearms license
> 
> That would save a lot of animals wouldn't it?


Not now they wouldn't. If it had always been so, people wouldn't think twice. Perfectly decent people go out shooting and eat what they've shot. They were usually brought up with it. 

If you won't do it yourself, you can pay someone who would. Same as now. I'm about to have my dinner though, so I'm not going to wind myself up about slaughterhouses and live transport, both subjects make me feel sick and angry.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> No. it means if you're not a good shot you'd miss the pheasant or rabbit you're trying to kill so you'd have nothing to eat .


Much rather hire a good shot with the animal killed quickly than only wing it and have it "run off" and suffer.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Stun all and stop faffing about. If eating it is against your religious beliefs can I point out the plant based diet?


Totally agree with you . Animal welfare should always come first.



rona said:


> Better still. Shoot while it's out and about in the natural environment and totally unaware of what's coming and suffers no fear


It simply isn't sustainable for everyone who eats meat to go & shoot their own.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Whilst we're on the subject.

(I too believe animal rights should come before religion)

*Denmark bans kosher and halal slaughter as minister says 'animal rights come before religion'*
New law, denounced as 'anti-Semitism' by Jewish leaders, comes after country controversially slaughtered a giraffe in public and fed him to lions

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...imal-rights-come-before-religion-9135580.html


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Whilst we're on the subject.
> 
> (I too believe animal rights should come before religion)
> 
> ...


Switzerland and New Zealand have also banned it. Belgium just voted to implement it next year as well.

It would be nice to see everyone go that way, but it depends on how much heed they pay to the religious communities. I'm disappointed that the UK bowed down and allowed exceptions


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> Switzerland and New Zealand have also banned it. Belgium just voted to implement it next year as well.
> 
> It would be nice to see everyone go that way, but it depends on how much heed they pay to the religious communities. I'm disappointed that the UK bowed down and allowed exceptions


It has always surprised me that kosher is allowed in the UK, yet it is never in the press!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The sad thing is it was probably written by animal welfare advocates. There was no humane or guaranteed way of stunning animals back in the day. If you read about the sharp knives and making sure the animal is dead and saying a prayer over him, then look at how some kill animals, it reads like something an old day rspca would have written.


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

Vanessa131 said:


> It has always surprised me that kosher is allowed in the UK, yet it is never in the press!


My personal thoughts on this are that it is considered more acceptable for the media to be negative about Muslims at the moment whereas to be the same about Jews would result in them being accused of antisemitism. Muslims are seen to be all terrorists by certain sectors of society so it's easy to add to the list of reasons we're supposed to despise them...


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Elles said:


> The sad thing is it was probably written by animal welfare advocates. There was no humane or guaranteed way of stunning animals back in the day. If you read about the sharp knives and making sure the animal is dead and saying a prayer over him, then look at how some kill animals, it reads like something an old day rspca would have written.


I had the same thought yesterday. When you read the Quranic verses behind the halal slaughter protocols it is obvious that author(s) had respect for the animal first and foremost in mind, right down to not allowing animals in the queue to see others being killed so as not to cause unnecessary distress.

One assumes that if the author(s) were writing today they would prescribe the most humane methods based on all available technologies. Sadly, religions usually get stuck on literal interpretation rather than spirit.

All that said, I'm not sure that proponents of 'normal' slaughter protocols have anything to crow about. Being shot in/on the head with a bolt pistol doesn't sound like a particularly fab way to go either.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I had my 26 year old horse euthanised by humane killer in January this year. I'd adored and owned him 25 years, my friend bred him. He had no fear and knew nothing about it. Died instantly still eating his apple. He wasn't well for a while, so I had plenty of time to argue with myself about when and how. Although I still worry about whether it was the right time, which is a damn stupid and painful thing to inflict on myself, I don't regret the how at all.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Interesting debate in 2015 by MPs regarding halal and kosher slaughter. 
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...022324000001/AnimalWelfare(Non-StunSlaughter) and the petition to label the meat .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> I had my 26 year old horse euthanised by humane killer in January this year. I'd adored and owned him 25 years, my friend bred him. He had no fear and knew nothing about it. Died instantly still eating his apple. He wasn't well for a while, so I had plenty of time to argue with myself about when and how. Although I still worry about whether it was the right time, which is a damn stupid and painful thing to inflict on myself, I don't regret the how at all.


 sorry to hear this . 
mine had to be destroyed after he broke his leg years ago . he was shot by the vet with the bolt gun .
Nowadays horses can be euthanised with an injection but I didn't have that choice at the time .


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

evel-lin said:


> My personal thoughts on this are that it is considered more acceptable for the media to be negative about Muslims at the moment whereas to be the same about Jews would result in them being accused of antisemitism. Muslims are seen to be all terrorists by certain sectors of society so it's easy to add to the list of reasons we're supposed to despise them...


 That is a shame . 
We have lots of Halal independent butchers around here , outer west london , so Halal tends to be more in my mind. 
i would hope that kosher meat would include stun slaughter in the future.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Interesting debate in 2015 by MPs regarding halal and kosher slaughter.
> https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...022324000001/AnimalWelfare(Non-StunSlaughter) and the petition to label the meat .


Interesting debate. Note the emboldened bit below. I'd say clear and explicit labelling is the way to go.


*Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)*
The point about labelling is fine; but does my hon. Friend agree that it should extend also to other means of causing death to an animal, which could include clubbing, electrocution and gassing? Should meat be labelled in that way?

*Mr Hollobone*
*There is of course a danger that if meat products are labelled in such detail, people will be put off buying them altogether.*


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Satori said:


> Interesting debate. Note the emboldened bit below. I'd say clear and explicit labelling is the way to go.
> 
> *Mr Hollobone*
> *There is of course a danger that if meat products are labelled in such detail, people will be put off buying them altogether.*


 One can but hope !


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Vanessa131 said:


> It has always surprised me that kosher is allowed in the UK, yet it is never in the press!


I think there are a few reasons for that. For one thing, as far as I am aware Kosher accounts for a far smaller proportion of the market, and isn't widely sold in mainstream shops. I know a few Jewish families, and they organise big communal deliveries of Kosher meat direct from small Kosher slaughterhouses to ensure provenance. Halal, on the other hand, has attracted enough commecial viability to have massive factory type slaughterhouses, the only real difference being the manual, not mechanical, slaughter. That has let them break into the mass markets and become mainstream suppliers to the point where many of us have probably eaten halal without realising it in restaurants.

Kosher slaughter also differs quite significantly from halal slaughter in technique, I believe. Preserving the consciousness of the animal throughout the whole process (including after the cuts) is a big thing in halal, which is why even those that do stun only use a mild stun, not full voltage. The Kosher method, on the other hand, is designed to instantly render unconsiousness at the moment of incision. Don't ask me for too many specifics specifics as this stuff was learned a long time ago and all I remember is it's something to do with a massive drop in blood pressure.

As such, if forced to choose I'd rather eat Kosher than halal. Although I'd take raising my own or hunting first.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> I think there are a few reasons for that. For one thing, as far as I am aware Kosher accounts for a far smaller proportion of the market, and isn't widely sold in mainstream shops. I know a few Jewish families, and they organise big communal deliveries of Kosher meat direct from small Kosher slaughterhouses to ensure provenance. Halal, on the other hand, has attracted enough commecial viability to have massive factory type slaughterhouses, the only real difference being the manual, not mechanical, slaughter. That has let them break into the mass markets and become mainstream suppliers to the point where many of us have probably eaten halal without realising it in restaurants.
> 
> Kosher slaughter also differs quite significantly from halal slaughter in technique, I believe. Preserving the consciousness of the animal throughout the whole process (including after the cuts) is a big thing in halal, which is why even those that do stun only use a mild stun, not full voltage. The Kosher method, on the other hand, is designed to instantly render unconsiousness at the moment of incision. Don't ask me for too many specifics specifics as this stuff was learned a long time ago and all I remember is it's something to do with a massive drop in blood pressure.
> 
> As such, if forced to choose I'd rather eat Kosher than halal. Although I'd take raising my own or hunting first.


A very good post . I was thinking along the same lines as i mentioned earlier , lots of halal butchers here but not aware of any kosher ones . I think people in general are less aware of kosher meat .

This is general now , not aimed at anyone .

A bit OT but talking of hate against Muslims being stirred up as mentioned in other posts in this thread , if anything happens in Israel and Palestine there is a backlash against Jewish people all over the world and racist things said on social media Twitter . It seems every Jewish person in the world is responsible for the Israelis and the situation with Palestine. 
People use any excuse to express hatred and the media and social media aids them in doing this.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> I think there are a few reasons for that. For one thing, as far as I am aware Kosher accounts for a far smaller proportion of the market, and isn't widely sold in mainstream shops. I know a few Jewish families, and they organise big communal deliveries of Kosher meat direct from small Kosher slaughterhouses to ensure provenance. Halal, on the other hand, has attracted enough commecial viability to have massive factory type slaughterhouses, the only real difference being the manual, not mechanical, slaughter. That has let them break into the mass markets and become mainstream suppliers to the point where many of us have probably eaten halal without realising it in restaurants.
> 
> Kosher slaughter also differs quite significantly from halal slaughter in technique, I believe. Preserving the consciousness of the animal throughout the whole process (including after the cuts) is a big thing in halal, which is why even those that do stun only use a mild stun, not full voltage. The Kosher method, on the other hand, is designed to instantly render unconsiousness at the moment of incision. Don't ask me for too many specifics specifics as this stuff was learned a long time ago and all I remember is it's something to do with a massive drop in blood pressure.
> 
> As such, if forced to choose I'd rather eat Kosher than halal. Although I'd take raising my own or hunting first.


Keeping the animal conscious isn't at all a thing wher halal is concerned. The stun used in halal causes unconsciousness. To cut a throat in a way to cause near instant unconsciousness would require decapitation as the spinal cord would also need to be severed close to the brain stem.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> I think there are a few reasons for that. For one thing, as far as I am aware Kosher accounts for a far smaller proportion of the market, and isn't widely sold in mainstream shops. I know a few Jewish families, and they organise big communal deliveries of Kosher meat direct from small Kosher slaughterhouses to ensure provenance. Halal, on the other hand, has attracted enough commecial viability to have massive factory type slaughterhouses, the only real difference being the manual, not mechanical, slaughter. That has let them break into the mass markets and become mainstream suppliers to the point where many of us have probably eaten halal without realising it in restaurants.
> 
> Kosher slaughter also differs quite significantly from halal slaughter in technique, I believe. Preserving the consciousness of the animal throughout the whole process (including after the cuts) is a big thing in halal, which is why even those that do stun only use a mild stun, not full voltage. The Kosher method, on the other hand, is designed to instantly render unconsiousness at the moment of incision. Don't ask me for too many specifics specifics as this stuff was learned a long time ago and all I remember is it's something to do with a massive drop in blood pressure.
> 
> As such, if forced to choose I'd rather eat Kosher than halal. Although I'd take raising my own or hunting first.


Totally agree kosher infiltrates very small portion of the market where buy halal is now mainstream I believe there are more halal slaughterhouses than they are conventional ones


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Just a note has anyone noticed that halal slaughtered meat seems to be a little cheaper then conventionally slaughtered meat?


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

*All slaughterhouses in England to have compulsory CCTV*
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...hterhouses-in-england-to-have-compulsory-cctv
"All slaughterhouses in England will be fitted with compulsory CCTV under plans to be unveiled on Friday by environment secretary Michael Gove, as part of a series of measures to bolster welfare standards and enforce laws against [URL='http://theguardian.com/world/animals']animal cruelty."[/URL]
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...hterhouses-in-england-to-have-compulsory-cctv
I thought this was already compulsory - better late than never.


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## sidevalve (Jun 29, 2017)

Brexit ? Perhaps at least we wouldn't have 700,000 + eggs to be destroyed supplied by dutch farms. 


kimthecat said:


> People use any excuse to express hatred and the media and social media aids them in doing this.


And this includes muslims - or am I to be warned for being naughty again


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

sidevalve said:


> Brexit ? Perhaps at least we wouldn't have 700,000 + eggs to be destroyed supplied by dutch farms.
> 
> And this includes muslims - or am I to be warned for being naughty again


Im pretty sure Muslims are people. As are christians, sikhs, atheists, Republicans, Liberals, tories, Greens, vegans, vegetarians, carnivores...... every group has a percentage of sh*tty people. The key is not to be one of them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> *All slaughterhouses in England to have compulsory CCTV*
> "All slaughterhouses in England will be fitted with compulsory CCTV under plans to be unveiled on Friday by environment secretary Michael Gove, as part of a series of measures to bolster welfare standards and enforce laws against animal cruelty."
> I thought this was already compulsory - better late than never.


Maybe they were trying to get it EU wide and not being listened to


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> Im pretty sure Muslims are people. As are christians, sikhs, atheists, Republicans, Liberals, tories, Greens, vegans, vegetarians, carnivores...... every group has a percentage of sh*tty people. The key is not to be one of them.


also people are in more than one group , Islam and Christianity are religions , Muslims and Christians can be asian, black , white , vegetarians , tories .

and yes definitely , don't be a sh*tty person ,


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

No it wasn't compulsory. People have been campaigning on it for years. It was even in UKIP's manifesto. The French made cctv compulsory earlier this year, so it can't be the Eu's fault. Apparently France had a problem with animal cruelty in theirs too. 

Hopefully someone will spot check it, or mo itor it to make it worth it. 

Well done again Mr Gove. Keep it up. Ban live transport next, though I suppose he'll have to wait until we're actually out for that though.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

About time too - I received this email from Animal Aid this week - it should not fall to animal charities to carry out secret investigations 


"In April and May, we placed hidden cameras inside Forge Farm Meats – a slaughterhouse in Kent. We were deeply disturbed by what we had filmed. This included serious problems with the way in which the animals were handled and stunned. We are very concerned that some animals are likely to have gone to the knife without being properly stunned.

As soon as our investigation was finished, we promptly handed our footage to the Food Standards Agency (FSA). This is the authority charged with regulating slaughterhouses. The FSA has begun investigating the slaughterhouse. Next, the case will be referred to the Crown Prosecution Service, who will decide whether to bring criminal charges".


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

kimthecat said: ↑
People use any excuse to express hatred and the media and social media aids them in doing this.



sidevalve said:


> And this includes muslims - or am I to be warned for being naughty again


 It includes anyone who expresses hatred , they shouldn't do it .


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

rona said:


> Maybe they were trying to get it EU wide and not being listened to


No I don't think that's the case.

But clearly we don't need to leave the EU to implement it in the UK.

Though once we do our chance of influencing them to copy us has gone.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> No I don't think that's the case.
> 
> But clearly we don't need to leave the EU to implement it in the UK.
> 
> Though once we do our chance of influencing them to copy us has gone.


France did it before us, so the Eu don't need our influence. 

Tbh that as a reason to stay in sounds a bit arrogant really doesn't it? Stay in so we can make Europe good like us. Not really sure how good we are. :Hilarious


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Elles said:


> France did it before us, so the Eu don't need our influence.
> 
> Tbh that as a reason to stay in sounds a bit arrogant really doesn't it? Stay in so we can make Europe good like us. Not really sure how good we are. :Hilarious


And they're more than welcome to copy us, in or out


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> France did it before us, so the Eu don't need our influence.
> 
> Tbh that as a reason to stay in sounds a bit arrogant really doesn't it? Stay in so we can make Europe good like us. Not really sure how good we are. :Hilarious


If reasons to leave include all the things we think are wrong with the EU, and we think we're right, then arrogant or not we should try to get others to see our point of view and change. And vice versa, no doubt. Nothing will change if we figuratively walk by on the other side.

Of course, many people will argue that a problem with the EU is its inability to change, and that's why they want to leave. Often the same people who claim, with impressive cognitive dissonance, that the EU has changed too much from the organisation that we joined, and that's why they want to leave!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> Ban live transport next, though I suppose he'll have to wait until we're actually out for that though.


We can only hope that this is first on the agenda for slaughter stock as soon as we are out, there's no need for them to travel live, and also improvements to regulations for those breeding stock we send abroad.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You could say that Victor Meldrew will never change, he's got even worse since we first met him. You wouldn't be contradicting yourself.



Arnie83 said:


> If reasons to leave include all the things we think are wrong with the EU, and we think we're right, then arrogant or not we should try to get others to see our point of view and change. And vice versa, no doubt. Nothing will change if we figuratively walk by on the other side.
> 
> Of course, many people will argue that a problem with the EU is its inability to change, and that's why they want to leave. Often the same people who claim, with impressive cognitive dissonance, that the EU has changed too much from the organisation that we joined, and that's why they want to leave!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> France did it before us, so the Eu don't need our influence.
> 
> Tbh that as a reason to stay in sounds a bit arrogant really doesn't it? Stay in so we can make Europe good like us. Not really sure how good we are. :Hilarious


TBH i don;t think we have much influence , i dont think we've had much influence for years , i suppose we have a vote but hats not quite the same as having influence as such.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> You could say that Victor Meldrew will never change, he's got even worse since we first met him. You wouldn't be contradicting yourself.


Indeed you could, but in his case the existing traits were gradually exacerbated without fundamental change, whereas complaints about the EU claim that it is now a completely different beast to the one that we thought we were joining. (As the same time as saying it is sclerotic.)


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> TBH i don;t think we have much influence , i dont think we've had much influence for years , i suppose we have a vote but hats not quite the same as having influence as such.


Largely, I suspect, because the sound advice in 'How to make friends and influence people' was not that hanging around on the sidelines and sniping at everyone was the best approach!


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Arnie83 said:


> Largely, I suspect, because the sound advice in 'How to make friends and influence people' was not that hanging around on the sidelines and sniping at everyone was the best approach!


:Hilarious

Cameron seemed to have zero influence , the Juncker debacle for instance ,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/27/david-cameron-loses-jean-claude-juncker-vote-eu
David Cameron has suffered a humiliating defeat after EU leaders voted overwhelmingly in favour of nominating Jean-Claude Juncker as the next president of the European commission.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Nigel Farage was an MEP. His attendance history was so bad only one other MEP beat it. An Irish disabled MEP who was in hospital. Clearly the Uk were keen to bring about change and felt that an MEP's role was extremely important.

Nige wasn't on the sidelines sniping. He wasn't there at all.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It's like Eurovision. No one votes for us.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> Cameron seemed to have zero influence , the Juncker debacle for instance ,
> 
> ...


You're right, though I can't say that Juncker has covered himself in glory since he got the job.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Elles said:


> It's like Eurovision. No one votes for us.


Because our songs are cr*p !


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