# What constitutes proof of ownership?



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

As the title says. I know a microchip isn't proof, and a registration document isn't, so what is??


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

If the Microchip and its attached paperwork isn't proof, then I would expect its all down to the dogs ability to recognise its true owner.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Zaros said:


> If the Microchip and its attached paperwork isn't proof, then I would expect its all down to the dogs ability to recognise its true owner.


Id be stuffed then, Millie would go to anyone who called her name! Got confusing in the park earlier she met another Millie lol! Two of us both calling our dogs


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I was hoping someone would know what the answer is from a legal point of view, in UK.


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## GingerHound (Apr 11, 2011)

Well, if its a pedigree dog, or one you have bought from a petshop, the original sales receipt or invoice is proof.

If its a stray or one you obtained without a receipt, you don't really have any "proof" of ownership, but then nobody else would have better "proof" (assuming of course you obtained the dog properly in the first place).

A microchip registered to you plus loads of photos of you with the dog would be quite strong evidence that you were the rightful owner. But it all depends who you are trying to prove it to and why.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I think a receipt? I know this has come a few times before.


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## MissBexi (Dec 27, 2009)

*lol. I love the idea of it being up to the dogs... I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Suki is a man lover. So she'd run to the first man in sight. Bailey might come to me cause he's a mummy's boy but then again he's probably just bugger off to the person who he smelt had food lol.
I have never really thought about proof of ownership, they are mine, I have the documents, the microchips, the vets stuff, the papers from when I actually bought them.And I spend an absolute fortune on them, I have all the receipts for beds, food, toys, treats etc. Therefore they are mine lol. *


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

When millies owners gave her to me I had them sign a transfer of ownership form and if these people coming to see her on thurs decide to take her I will sign one to them.

But as a local rescue pointed out to me, even a written contract might not stand up in court.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

So if someone gave you a dog, then after a year or so decided they want it back - and you have no receipt or anything written by the previous owner, would you have to give the dog back?


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> So if someone gave you a dog, then after a year or so decided they want it back - and you have no receipt or anything written by the previous owner, would you have to give the dog back?


No you wouldn't. After that period of time they would have to prove it was theirs, and without anything in writing that would be quite difficult.


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## GingerHound (Apr 11, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> So if someone gave you a dog, then after a year or so decided they want it back - and you have no receipt or anything written by the previous owner, would you have to give the dog back?


I would suggest that it depends on why they gave you the dog in the first place and whether it was on loan or a permanent gift.

Crucially of course it also depends on whether they can prove they owned the dog in the first place and what steps they are likely to take to try and get it back.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> So if someone gave you a dog, then after a year or so decided they want it back - and you have no receipt or anything written by the previous owner, would you have to give the dog back?


I think if you can prove that you have cared for the dog (vets bills, insurance etc.) you can use that as support of your claim of ownership (especially if there is no proof the previous owner has given you any money during this time) but I'm not sure if that would be enough.

I don't think the police would get involved - I think it would be more of a civil matter and there have been a few high profile cases where even when the dog has been microchipped they haven't been returned to the owner they are chipped to.


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## alan g a (Feb 23, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> So if someone gave you a dog, then after a year or so decided they want it back - and you have no receipt or anything written by the previous owner, would you have to give the dog back?


But then would the original owner be able to provide proof of ownership?


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## mama_abz (Apr 27, 2011)

this has really got me thinking. i have nothing for rocky that states i own him. 
i have pictures, he microchipped to me, and registered at vets in my name but the thought that wouldnt be enough is scary. and the thought of letting him decide is even scarier he has no loyalty at all and will go to whoever is willing to give him a fuss.
*runs off to google a legal answer*


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I was given a receipt by the dogs home when Jet came to live with me. I would think that would count as proof.Plus since then his vet records to show that he's been well cared for if anything extra was needed.


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## mama_abz (Apr 27, 2011)

i googles this and a post from this website was the top result so here is the link 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/114746-could-you-prove-you-own-your-dogs.html


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Ok - soo, if someone bought a pup, and had a receipt and registration, but then gave it to someone else but didn't give a receipt and hadn't signed the pup over (so was still registered in 1st persons name), would the original owner be able to take the dog back after a year then? What if there were emails saying they had given the dog to them? And they had looked after the pup for a year and paid all vaccinations etc, and trained the dog? Who would the law be on the side of? This is all hypothetical, I find myself sitting thinking about stuff like this when I'm bored lol


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

This worries me too. 

My dog was/is owned by my elderly neighbour. I took her in in February when he went into hospital and he then moved permanently to a care home.

I suppose i just assumed i was keeping her. I've spent a fortune on vets bills and had her microchipped.

Then last time i visited him he said someone else wanted her. The carers also said he'd told them he was going to give her to this other person. He then told me he'd decided to let her stay with me because i take her to see him regularly and he was worried the other person might not.

However, he has dementia and constantly changes his mind... 

No idea where i would stand...


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

I think if it was taken to court, it would be most likely be whoever the dog had lived with for the last X amount of time, who ever had paid for its keep and been the sole carer of it

It has made me wonder tho... what if your dog ran off for example and you managed to trace it down a few months later, with someone claimiing they owned your dog  it would literally be your word against theirs and could they even be forced to get the dog scanned for a microchip ?
If you stole your own dog back... would you then get arrested for stealing your stolen dog back 

But I suppose in cases like that they would have to explain where the dog came from and why you had all its details and photos of it with you etc 
and i guess your family/friends/neighbours/vet etc etc could all back up your claims.

It would all come down to individuals cases tho... there are soo many scenerios where proving ownership would be needed and hard to prove, especially if you hadn`t had the dog long ...


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Its very confusing and scary! :eek6:


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## bewitched (Jun 9, 2010)

This scares the hell out of me! I'd die if someone tried to claim Lula as their own. My sister and her husband are both police dog handlers. Will be asking them this tomorrow!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Receipt or transfer of ownership on the KC site. Vet bills are the biggy, I think. With horses, it's livery bills but in terms of being given an animal, you need to ask for a receipt, so pay at least a quid and some paperwork, or you don't have a leg to stand on. I keep hearing awful tales of people being 'given' horses that are subsequently taken back.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I have all his vet papers and he's chipped in my name but I've no transfer of ownership or anything and hopefully he would come running straight to me he normally does if he hasn't seen me for a while whole body wagging. But he loves everyone . I hope that would be enough


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## GingerHound (Apr 11, 2011)

Just go to google news and search for "tug of love dog" to see a few cases.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

cinammontoast said:


> Receipt or transfer of ownership on the KC site. *Vet bills are the biggy*, I think. With horses, it's livery bills but in terms of being given an animal, you need to ask for a receipt, so pay at least a quid and some paperwork, or you don't have a leg to stand on. I keep hearing awful tales of people being 'given' horses that are subsequently taken back.


This is what my vet has led me to believe. In the unlikely event of whoever dumped our little JRT at the side of the road turning up to claim him, the onus would be on them to prove ownership, as chipping, vet bills etc. all point to me being his owner now.
And if anyone successfully proved that they used to own him my vet would then back me in demonstrating that his previous owner was guilty of severe neglect


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

A receipt. If you aren't in possession of a receipt then I image receipt for veterinary care that covers the dogs life at the earliest period whilst it is with or was with you, vaccination certificate, insurance certificate.
Microchip has been proven to not be a proof of ownership, however I imagine if the previous owner had signed the transfer of microchip papers that would constitute transfer of ownership. 
This for me is why I wouldn't re home a dog from a rescue who maintains the microchip detail in their name.

I didn't have a receipt for my dog I do however have her original vaccination papers, the microchip paperwork was signed over into my name. I was however surprised when the vets (I share the same vet with the old owner) were happy for me to transfer her record to my name without anything other than the original vaccination certificate. I am however well known to the staff at my vets or rather I was when I got Pickle.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

With both Georgina and Gwylim I have their contracts of sale and pedigrees. Georgina was microchipped by my vet after I bought her which is on her EU Pet Passport. Gwylim was microchipped by the breeder, but the change of ownership is also recorded on his EU Pet Passport. I have every receipt from my vet for any treatment and vaccinations they've had since I owned them, so I would have thought all that paperwork would be sufficient proof that I am their owner.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

This is pretty scary. Muttly's owner bought him from a breeder, so may have a receipt.
He is microchipped in my name, has a collar ID with my address, vet in my name, insurance in my name (I assume this would stand up?). But I paid nothing for him to his old owner, no receipt. She did (after loads of pestering) give me his original vaccination record from when he was a pup and I now have a new one from my vet since having his booster last week.
He loves everyone and would prob just keep running round to each of us in turn for fusses!


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## Harvey cuthbert (Aug 15, 2016)

Hi all,
I have a japanese akita and had taken him off a freind who received him from another freind. 

He was 12 month old ish when we got him and have had him for 6 years and loved and cared for him ever since and is the familys sunshine! 

He accidently got out over the weekend and was taken to the kennels. I went to pick him up the following morning and was told by the kennels that his microchip has not been registered to a specific person. (I was told from my freind that he was all chipped and registered) 

I got a call this morning from my local council to tell me that they run his chip number to find out that he was reported stolen in 2010 (6 years ago, the same year we received him).

They have made contact with the man who reported him stolen and he said that he wants him back. 

As you can imagine its been a distrauting, confusing, mind blown past two days and i would like to know if there is anything i can do? 

Surely it wouldn't be fair for a dog to change homes after being apart of our family his life? 

Any help would be highly appreciated as he wants him back by saturday  all happening so fast and dont know what to do!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

You might benefit from giving these people a ring http://doglaw.co.uk/


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## Harvey cuthbert (Aug 15, 2016)

Thank you


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## ChristineJ21 (Jul 3, 2016)

Harvey cuthbert said:


> Hi all,
> I have a japanese akita and had taken him off a freind who received him from another freind.
> 
> He was 12 month old ish when we got him and have had him for 6 years and loved and cared for him ever since and is the familys sunshine!
> ...


I would imagine that in law, the original owner has the right to have the dog back - even if you had receipt of payment because the dog was registered stolen. However, you might be able to talk to the original owner and ask if you can pay them for the dog, explain the circumstance and that you had no idea the dog was stolen and that you took him in good faith and that he has become a part of your family and is very happy there and ask if you can come to some accommodation or whether you can recompense him for his original loss and keep the dog.

If he is a decent sort, then he may agree that six years is a long time and that it might be in the dog's best interest to remain with you.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Problem is if your dog was stolen and you were told it had been found after 6 years you would probably want it back. It seems to be very complicated and there have been some very upsetting sounding cases. Of course it is an offence not to have a dog chipped and registered in your name so if you had conformed to the law when it came in a short time ago you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble - or found the true owner a bit earlier. I cant believe the chip has never been checked in 6 years.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Harvey cuthbert said:


> Hi all,
> I have a japanese akita and had taken him off a freind who received him from another freind.
> 
> He was 12 month old ish when we got him and have had him for 6 years and loved and cared for him ever since and is the familys sunshine!
> ...


I find it a bit odd that you acquired a dog that was microchipped and failed to contact the relevant company to notify a change of ownership.

As you say you have had this dog for 6 years was he never scanned at the vets?

I also find it odd that the kennels told you one story and you get another one from the council.

I am afraid you had it within your power to check that your dog was not the product of theft from the beginning.

I am afraid that if I had been "gifted" a dog the first thing I would do is to have it scanned to ensure it was not somebody's beloved pet which had somehow got into the wrong hands.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The issue with dog ownership is a bit similar to cars.

For example some rescue centres retain ownership whilst the person who adopts it becomes the keeper (and thus legally responsible for the dog).

In the event of problems then the rescue centre can retrieve the dog from said keeper.

Tattooing, Microchipping, DNA profiling, KC registration (whether breed or activity), pet passport will all go some way to weigh the balance of probability in your favour.

As of course would a receipt from the vendor.

http://doglaw.co.uk/index.php/custody/


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## Collywobbles (Jun 17, 2016)

Where do you buy these DNA kits to go on a register (for UK) with your details?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Collywobbles said:


> Where do you buy these DNA kits to go on a register (for UK) with your details?


From the Kennel Club it is proof of parentage should the dog be stolen which is why I had it done. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/breeding-for-health/dna-profiling-parentage-analysis/


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## Collywobbles (Jun 17, 2016)

smokeybear said:


> From the Kennel Club it is proof of parentage should the dog be stolen which is why I had it done. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/breeding-for-health/dna-profiling-parentage-analysis/


Does your dog have to be registered with the KC to be able to get one?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Collywobbles said:


> Does your dog have to be registered with the KC to be able to get one?


I think so yes.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Problem is if your dog was stolen and you were told it had been found after 6 years you would probably want it back. It seems to be very complicated and there have been some very upsetting sounding cases. Of course it is an offence not to have a dog chipped and registered in your name so if you had conformed to the law when it came in a short time ago you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble - or found the true owner a bit earlier. *I cant believe the chip has never been checked in 6 years*.


None of my dogs' chips has ever been checked against any register. Checked to see if they still work, often.


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## KellyBianca (Jun 12, 2017)

SpringerHusky said:


> I think a receipt? I know this has come a few times before.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MissBexi said:


> the vets stuff,


I have a million vets' receipts all in my name for the cats; think that might be a help, but depending on whom you were trying to convince. The details the vet holds for the cats include chip numbers.


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## KellyBianca (Jun 12, 2017)

Hello,
I am having a problem getting my dog back she is a tad over a year now. I loaned her as a pup to someone as a comfort dog for a child that was abused sexually to heal. now this person won't return my calls blocked me on every turn from everyone and lives out of state. I recently found out that all of this was untrue and this child wasn't abused and she and her husband are getting divorced and my dog is now part of their divorce settlement! ugh! he has no claim due to a prenup. he can't claim the dog. I found out since I am the one that bought the dog and sent the dog up there. I have the paid for receipt and it has her information on it. I also sent up a dog crate, a ortho bed, food, deer antlers, 50lbs of food tons of misc stuff toys, collar, totally including my gas almost $400 probably more. the only thing this person paid me was approx. $350 give or take but nothing for the dog because she wasn't for sale!. I never transferred ownership to them she was to be returned to me. This person was only a care giver for a few months. I have tried for over 7 months to get my dogs back. she has blocked me in every way. now we went to court and the Judge is going to have to make the decision as to who the true owner is of the dog. I sure hope he contacts my breeder. I have filed with AKC to get new paperwork to register her. This crazy woman has never taken my dog to a vet she has no shots past when she left my house. no rabies no distemper parvo past the puppy stage. I am at a loss. I know she wants to use my beautiful dog as a backyard breeder. and I am disgusted. I saw her over the weekend while I was there for court to tell the judge I want my baby home and show him my proof. I am shocked he did not allow me to take her then. this woman did pay me some money for the things listed above via paypal and my time to drive to PA two different payment so $60 and $320 she wrote on there for the dogs name but not for the sale of..... or purchase of.... or the transfer of.... I am crushed I could lose my dog to this woman! I will never believe in anyone again!!! I have raised labs since 1993 I took pity on this woman and her nephew. I am just sick. I have the actual receipt from the breeder and another dog from this breeder as I do not breed anymore. What are your thoughts? Do I stand a good chance at getting my baby girl back?


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

KellyBianca said:


> Hello,
> I am having a problem getting my dog back she is a tad over a year now. I loaned her as a pup to someone as a comfort dog for a child that was abused sexually to heal. now this person won't return my calls blocked me on every turn from everyone and lives out of state. I recently found out that all of this was untrue and this child wasn't abused and she and her husband are getting divorced and my dog is now part of their divorce settlement! ugh! he has no claim due to a prenup. he can't claim the dog. I found out since I am the one that bought the dog and sent the dog up there. I have the paid for receipt and it has her information on it. I also sent up a dog crate, a ortho bed, food, deer antlers, 50lbs of food tons of misc stuff toys, collar, totally including my gas almost $400 probably more. the only thing this person paid me was approx. $350 give or take but nothing for the dog because she wasn't for sale!. I never transferred ownership to them she was to be returned to me. This person was only a care giver for a few months. I have tried for over 7 months to get my dogs back. she has blocked me in every way. now we went to court and the Judge is going to have to make the decision as to who the true owner is of the dog. I sure hope he contacts my breeder. I have filed with AKC to get new paperwork to register her. This crazy woman has never taken my dog to a vet she has no shots past when she left my house. no rabies no distemper parvo past the puppy stage. I am at a loss. I know she wants to use my beautiful dog as a backyard breeder. and I am disgusted. I saw her over the weekend while I was there for court to tell the judge I want my baby home and show him my proof. I am shocked he did not allow me to take her then. this woman did pay me some money for the things listed above via paypal and my time to drive to PA two different payment so $60 and $320 she wrote on there for the dogs name but not for the sale of..... or purchase of.... or the transfer of.... I am crushed I could lose my dog to this woman! I will never believe in anyone again!!! I have raised labs since 1993 I took pity on this woman and her nephew. I am just sick. I have the actual receipt from the breeder and another dog from this breeder as I do not breed anymore. What are your thoughts? Do I stand a good chance at getting my baby girl back?


How old was the dog when you gave her to them?

It sounds a very weird situation. Maybe post a thread separate from this one. You'll get more replies.


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## KellyBianca (Jun 12, 2017)

PawsOnMe said:


> How old was the dog when you gave her to them?
> 
> It sounds a very weird situation. Maybe post a thread separate from this one. You'll get more replies.


 She was 12 weeks and any idea where I should post it since I am new here? Thanks,


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I would repost in Dog Chat.


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## KellyBianca (Jun 12, 2017)

Sweety said:


> I would repost in Dog Chat.


Help I don't know how to do that


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

What a bizarre arrangement  what age did you get the puppy yourself? I assume you know this family very well if you gave away a 3 month old puppy to them, when in fact he should've been bonding with you at such an important time? Is the puppy registered on your name after you got it from the breeder? Do you have some sort of contract with the breeder? What you did yourself may be breaking the contract but maybe that could be used against this person? Since you drove the puppy there, can't you just go and knock on their door if they are blocking your calls?


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## KellyBianca (Jun 12, 2017)

Yes, it is bizarre, I met her thru one of my lab groups, I thought she was very nice. it turned out she is an alcoholic and a compulsive liar. She lied about everything! even her husband who divorced her had no idea at first how the pup got there. she told so many lies! They live 6 hours from me. met someone she knew halfway to turn the pup over again another lie she said she had recently had a kidney transplant and wasn't able to drive so that is why she paid me to come up with the pup and she paid for all these items she had me buy for the pup to make a smoothe transition for the puppy. I guess I am naïve. I trusted and believed her. I had my hands full with my blind dog that was 12 yrs old and suffers from Dwarfism she has since passed on. I had two other labs. and she we agreed that she would take care of her and the pup would be used to comfort her nephew that stayed with her. he was sexually abused from her sister ex boyfriend. found out later that was untrue. that is when I wanted my dog back! she then blocked me from calls facebook, text messages and anyone in her family. there was no way for me to get ahold of her. I did not have her address. no she does not have any paperwork thru akc nor does she have anything from me stating I sold her the dog. she does have paypal showing she sent me money and it says for the dogs name but that was for stuff I bought at her request and brought there. and since gas was over $300 a gallon she paid me 150 for my travel to go the distance since she could not make the trip. I know its sounds crazy and I was a fool. the judge will be making a decision and I pray to God since I am the only owner the true owner I get my baby back! but ya never know now days! I want to hear your thoughts I will NEVER EVER DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS AGAIN!!! my faith in people are gone! I want her home I will never let her go she needs to be UTD on shots get spayed and loved till I can't lover her no more! she has a bad ear infection in her right ear she has not been to a vet they have no vet records on her no county license nothing! I am just sick!!!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Anyone had any updates on this thread?


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Lesson learned! Lend cds, dvds etc, not flesh and blood pets!


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