# Leeds Dog Show - Mistreatment of Dog



## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

I came across this video of a lovely little Dachshund at the Leeds Champ Show 2013. It shocked me that it was being handle so roughly and was gob smacked when the owner/handler thought it a good idea to hit the dog as it wasn't doing what she wanted.

Is this acceptable?

Not in my eyes.

What are your thoughts and what should be done about this.

Thanks

Edited Leeds Champs Show 2013 - YouTube

Unedited- S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube Video Now Back Online.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I must have missed it, I didn't see the owner hit the dog, I didn't like how she handled her dog though.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I must have missed it, I didn't see the owner hit the dog, I didn't like how she handled her dog though.


It's when she puts it on the table for the judge.


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## Pet Services Kent (Dec 3, 2010)

Didn't like the smack, but would be more concerned about the way she lifted him (or her!). I look after 2 dachys and have always been taught by the owners to support both back and front ends and hold them close to your body to minimise risk of damaging their backs?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok, saw it that time, I don't like it, she doesn't really hit the dog hard at all, but that's not the point, it's her lack of training for her dog to stand still that's the problem, not the dog. If you object to it, then really it should have been reported at the time, or I suspect you could highlight the video to the club and ask that something is done? I think the rough handling is worse than the dog being hit, I'd be worried with a breed prone to back problems hauling it round like that might do some damage.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I saw her tap the dog on the shoulder and tell it to stand. I wouldn't class it as a hit. Nor would I say it was mistreatment, just rough handling. Not that I agree with it, but I think what looks like something to one person is something else to another.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

SLB said:


> I saw her tap the dog on the shoulder and tell it to stand. I wouldn't class it as a hit. Nor would I say it was mistreatment, just rough handling. Not that I agree with it, but I think what looks like something to one person is something else to another.


She hits the dog 23 seconds into the video on it back, hard enough for it to go down on its legs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> She hits the dog 23 seconds into the video on it back, hard enough for it to go down on its legs.


Nope, the dog doesn't go down on it's back legs, it's far too stretched out, something that seems to be a problem with some stacked dogs where they position where their legs and feet are, but the dog keeps on his feet the whole time.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I think the two slaps/pats at 24/25 secs on the film are not nearly as bad as the way she was roughing it in the very opening shots..where shes yanking it up with a handful of ear..

The point is if she does this in public at a show knowing that expert and public eyes are on her.. what does she get up to in private when no one is looking and the dog does something she doesnt like?

I would have asked her to leave the ring..

It is not a good example to set for others who might think this is the way to handle a dog esp if she was to win any award..

To have to leave the ring and be told that the reason her dog didnt win was because of her handeling would be more likely to make her think twice..


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

What a weird first post 

My thoughts are that if you think it's an issue you should take it up with the show officials as the part you object to happened right in front of the judge.

I'm not a fan of how many conformation folks handle their dogs period. Not that I like it, but this seems like par for the course to me.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, saw it that time, I don't like it, she doesn't really hit the dog hard at all, but that's not the point, it's her lack of training for her dog to stand still that's the problem, not the dog. If you object to it, then really it should have been reported at the time, or I suspect you could highlight the video to the club and ask that something is done? I think the rough handling is worse than the dog being hit, I'd be worried with a breed prone to back problems hauling it round like that might do some damage.


I wasn't at the show and only saw the video today. It is my understanding that the hitting of a dog in a show (at anytime in my book) is not allowed.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> She hits the dog 23 seconds into the video on it back, hard enough for it to go down on its legs.


Looks like a flinch to me.

I'm sorry but I think this seems like a witch hunt against this specific person. Especially as the video is uploaded by you, yet you claim to have found it.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> What a weird first post
> 
> My thoughts are that if you think it's an issue you should take it up with the show officials as the part you object to happened right in front of the judge.
> 
> I'm not a fan of how many conformation folks handle their dogs period. Not that I like it, but this seems like par for the course to me.


Not sure why my concern for dogs is weird 

Like I said I wasn't at the show and wanted to see if I was in the minority in that I felt it wrong and what better place than a forum for dog lovers.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> I wasn't at the show and only saw the video today. It is my understanding that the hitting of a dog in a show (at anytime in my book) is not allowed.


The same goes for gundog competitions, any mis-handling of a dog and the exhibitor/competitor should be disqualified as I understand it. I'm surprised something wasn't said to her, well, not surprised, but unfortunately when people are involved everything becomes subjective.

My breeds are free standing, I see people at shows step on their toes to get them to move their feet, not hard, but just to try and get their feet in the right place. This is something that we're taught at the ring craft I attend, never to do.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Not sure why my concern for dogs is weird
> 
> Like I said I wasn't at the show and wanted to see if I was in the minority in that I felt it wrong and what better place than a forum for dog lovers.


I'm not sure I'm buying that your concern is for the dog 

You claim to have just seen the video yet the person who uploaded it has the exact same user name as you - crazy coincidence or you uploaded the video. It's just a little suspect, that's all.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I'm not sure I'm buying that your concern is for the dog
> 
> You claim to have just seen the video yet the person who uploaded it has the exact same user name as you - crazy coincidence or you uploaded the video. It's just a little suspect, that's all.


This is the original video, I only posted in case it was taken down.

S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

What concerns me is if she can be so rough when being filmed, what she like when not, wonder how she treats them at home?, as I dont see any "love" coming from her at all ..... 
but then again I need to ask is this the usual treatment of them at shows and is accepted?  if it is, I find it very sad and unacceptable imo


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Dont care who uploaded the vid...the handler is a spiteful cow...the dog looks miserable...shame on the handler


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> This is the original video, I only posted in case it was taken down.
> 
> S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube


So why not post the original link? Rather than a link to youtube..


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

SLB said:


> So why not post the original link? Rather than a link to youtube..


Because it may have been taken down, which I stated, and they are both Youtube. 

I'm sorry but I thought the concern was the treatment of a dog.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SLB said:


> So why not post the original link? Rather than a link to youtube..


The original video has been edited down to show that exhibitor and their handling.

---------------------------------------------------------------

OP, as others have said and I agree, the handling is poor, she is rougher than I would personally be with a dog, and I don't like watching it, so if you are worried about it, why not report it? Or ask if anyone else has reported it? No club wants to be associated with anything that would bring them into disrepute, and from the comments on here, the actions of such an exhibitor may well do.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The original video has been edited down to show that exhibitor and their handling.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> OP, as others have said and I agree, the handling is poor, she is rougher than I would personally be with a dog, and I don't like watching it, so if you are worried about it, why not report it? Or ask if anyone else has reported it? No club wants to be associated with anything that would bring them into disrepute, and from the comments on here, the actions of such an exhibitor may well do.


I have sent the link to the Kennel Club, I only wished to find a forum of like minded dog lovers to gather their opinion and to be honest to have my motives questioned by some has shocked me. 

I don't know who the handler is but as the show was last week it can't be too hard to find out and I hope the KC can do this.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> I have sent the link to the Kennel Club, I only wished to find a forum of like minded dog lovers to gather their opinion and to be honest to have my motives questioned by some has shocked me.
> 
> I don't know who the handler is but as the show was last week it can't be too hard to find out and I hope the KC can do this.


You'd be surprised how many trolls a forum like this attracts. You won't be the last to have your motives questioned when joining with what's deemed a controversial first post, the breeding section's usually the worst!

Welcome to the forum in any case


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You'd be surprised how many trolls a forum like this attracts. You won't be the last to have your motives questioned when joining with what's deemed a controversial first post, the breeding section's usually the worst!
> 
> Welcome to the forum in any case


Thank you.


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

I agree that the handling could be better, but i've seen much worse at dog shows.. some people are so rough.

If you are concerned you can report the video and look into reporting the lady with the kennel club maybe, but to be honest I didn't see anything that I would call abusive. Slightly rough handling but I didn't see anything that overly concerned me.

Welcome to PF though.. Slightly odd first post. I can't help but wonder if there may be a bit of bad mouthing going on here...


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I agree that the handling could be better, but i've seen much worse at dog shows.. some people are so rough.
> 
> If you are concerned you can report the video and look into reporting the lady with the kennel club maybe, but to be honest I didn't see anything that I would call abusive. Slightly rough handling but I didn't see anything that overly concerned me.
> 
> I can't help but wonder if there may be a bit of bad mouthing going on here...


So you feel picking a dog up by grabbing it's neck and ear and slapping are ok. 

I'm glad I don't. I have stated why I joined the forum above and now I have hope to post more of the fluffy less controversial type but when I see something I think is wrong I will post it.


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

juliebriggs said:


> So you feel picking a dog up by grabbing it's neck and ear and slapping are ok.
> 
> I'm glad I don't. I have stated why I joined the forum above and now I have hope to post more of the fluffy less controversial type but when I see something I think is wrong I will post it.


No. Granted, it is rough, but not to the point where the dog is in distress... therefore I don't think she has crossed any lines. Handling could be better definitely, but I don't see any signs that the dog is in any way distressed which is why it doesn't really concern me.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I agree that the handling could be better, but i've seen much worse at dog shows.. some people are so rough.
> 
> If you are concerned you can report the video and look into reporting the lady with the kennel club maybe, but to be honest I didn't see anything that I would call abusive. Slightly rough handling but I didn't see anything that overly concerned me.
> 
> Welcome to PF though.. Slightly odd first post. I can't help but wonder if there may be a bit of bad mouthing going on here...


The fact youve seen worse does not affect what is happening to this dog. If I saw somebody treating a dog this way I would at the very least report it...but most likely tell the owner to behave and stop being spiteful. Because its a dog show doesnt make it okay. The way she yanks the dogs collar at times (original video) is unacceptable.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> No. Granted, it is rough, but not to the point where the dog is in distress... therefore I don't think she has crossed any lines. Handling could be better definitely, but I don't see any signs that the dog is in any way distressed which is why it doesn't really concern me.


The dog doesn't exactly look happy about the way it's being handled imo, how upset does it have to be for the handling to be classed as unacceptable?


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

chichi said:


> The fact youve seen worse does not affect what is happening to this dog. If I saw somebody treating a dog this way I would at the very least report it...but most likely tell the owner to behave and stop being spiteful. Because its a dog show doesnt make it okay. The way she yanks the dogs collar at times (original video) is unacceptable.


I didn't say it was acceptable.. just not something that would concern me enough to report it. If someone else has a different opinion and feels the need to report it then they should. But personally, I don't see anything that I would feel to report. That's not because of the fact I have seen worse, it's because I don't see the dog is in distress.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> The dog doesn't exactly look happy about the way it's being handled imo, how upset does it have to be for the handling to be classed as unacceptable?


In my view what we have here is not a dog that is misbehaving or being naughty, as we can see from the video, but a handler who is not happy that the dog is not doing exactly what she wants and is therefore using tactics that were deemed unacceptable in the Circus ring.

A dog is a living thing not a performing puppet that deserves a slap when it doesn't perform.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Report it all those that aren't happy handler looks like she's have a **** day and taking out on dog! FYI no it's not how all show dogs are handled defeats the purpose if your dog is not happy it doesn't show well. I think I must live with my head in the clouds because I never see this "much worse" treatment at shows, I've certainly seen the big boy Rotts have there show leads jerked for grumbling on the move at other boys it this considered much worse!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I didn't say it was acceptable.. just not something that would concern me enough to report it. If someone else has a different opinion and feels the need to report it then they should. But personally, I don't see anything that I would feel to report. That's not because of the fact I have seen worse, it's because I don't see the dog is in distress.


So if a beaten child doesn't cry then a report to Childline is inappropriate. (and weird if the first report  )

The hitting is wrong, the reaction of the dog is irrelevant, it may have gotten used to being hit.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> In my view what we have here is not a dog that is misbehaving or being naughty, as we can see from the video, but a handler who is not happy that the dog is not doing exactly what she wants and is therefore using tactics that were deemed unacceptable in the Circus ring.
> 
> A dog is a living thing not a performing puppet that deserves a slap when it doesn't perform.


Where is the original vid? I'd be interested to watch it all rather than just the edited bits


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

juliebriggs said:


> So if a beaten child doesn't cry then a report to Childline is inappropriate. (and weird if the first report  )
> 
> The hitting is wrong, the reaction of the dog is irrelevant, it may have gotten used to being hit.


Unless i'm missing something, I wouldn't have called that a hit.. A tap maybe!?... Not sure.

I wonder if this lady won any prizes that day?.. I've not done showing in a long long time, but I always thought that part of it was down to the handling. Mainly the dog, but certainly the handling comes in to it too?... She'd probably do better with some better handling. I don't know why some people at shows do handle their dogs in this way, seems a bit unnecessary...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> In my view what we have here is not a dog that is misbehaving or being naughty, as we can see from the video, but a handler who is not happy that the dog is not doing exactly what she wants and is therefore using tactics that were deemed unacceptable in the Circus ring.
> 
> A dog is a living thing not a performing puppet that deserves a slap when it doesn't perform.


Curious if you dislike show dogs so much why were you watching Leeds Champ show vids ?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

You can see her number clearly in video so easy to report and find out who she is?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Where is the original vid? I'd be interested to watch it all rather than just the edited bits


Here you go, I have edited my original post with the link.

I only posted an edited version of the lady in question as the original may be taken down.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Curious if you dislike show dogs so much why were you watching Leeds Champ show vids ?


Where have I stated I dislike show dogs?

I visit Crufts every year and other shows when I can. What I dislike is dogs being mistreated. The dogs are not puppets and the best is gained in terms of showing through love and encouragement, not fear and hitting as can be seen by the other handlers.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

LahLahsDogs said:


> Unless i'm missing something, I wouldn't have called that a hit.. A tap maybe!?... Not sure.
> 
> I wonder if this lady won any prizes that day?.. I've not done showing in a long long time, but I always thought that part of it was down to the handling. Mainly the dog, but certainly the handling comes in to it too?... She'd probably do better with some better handling. I don't know why some people at shows do handle their dogs in this way, seems a bit unnecessary...


In the original unedited video at 3.52 seconds onwards that is a slap/hit in my eyes and the dog recoils from it.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> This is the original video, I only posted in case it was taken down.
> 
> S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube


This is an unlisted video. You didn't just happen upon it browsing you tube. How did you come by this link?

I don't like how the dog is being handled personally, but I think if you have access to an unlisted video then surely you have access to finding out who the handler is, who the judge is, and reporting it as needed.

The part where you felt the need to share an edited version on a public forum, without disclosing who you are and what your connection is to this video and the dachshund world, is very suspect to me, sorry.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> This is an unlisted video. You didn't just happen upon it browsing you tube. How did you come by this link?
> 
> I don't like how the dog is being handled personally, but I think if you have access to an unlisted video then surely you have access to finding out who the handler is, who the judge is, and reporting it as needed.
> 
> The part where you felt the need to share an edited version on a public forum, without disclosing who you are and what your connection is to this video and the dachshund world, is very suspect to me, sorry.


The video, among a great many, are posted on Emily Guys Facebook page, Emily attends many shows taking photos and video and posts them for the Show Dog community.

Like I stated I did not attend the show. I also do not show myself but have attended them. I do now know who the handler is as well as the judge, (google is great isn't it).

Why not visit Emily's facebook page and do a friend request, she accepts all and you can then see her vast list of videos and photos from hundreds of shows.

I hope that satisfies your conspiracy theory leanings.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Right. First of all let me say that I do not condone cruelty to animals of any description, whether they be show dogs or non-show dogs. But what is going on here is not cruelty.

In the non-edited version here S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube you can clearly see that the handler is not mishandling the dog. When she stands him on the table, she is more rough than I would like to see, but she does not *slap* him - he growls at the judge and she *taps* him on the side and tells him off. The dog does not look in the least distressed by this. At all other times during the handling and when the dog is moving around the ring you can clearly see that he was not unfazed by his tap and is in fact moving quite happily.

Now, why would a newbie come to a forum with an edited video, trying to say that a handler slaps dog so hard it went down on its hanunches, having edited out all the other examples of her handling perfectly well, and trying to pretend it was a video they had just happened across and that they are concerned about cruelty to dogs?

Could it be because the dog - who won the junior class - was awarded the reserve ticket, unusually beating the 2nd in Open, the Limit winner and the Post Grad winner to do so? Could it be that someone's nose was put out of joint because of this?

This forum is notorious in the show world for its biased treatment of people who show and show breeders - could it be that someone is trying to take advantage of this reputation in order to start (or further) a witch hunt because their dog (or their friend's dog) was beaten by a junior?

I think the people who have expressed suspicions about the OP's motives were right to express those suspicions - I too am very suspicious of her motives. Something does not ring true.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Right. First of all let me say that I do not condone cruelty to animals of any description, whether they be show dogs or non-show dogs. But what is going on here is not cruelty.
> 
> In the non-edited version here S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube you can clearly see that the handler is not mishandling the dog. When she stands him on the table, she is more rough than I would like to see, but she does not *slap* him - he growls at the judge and she *taps* him on the side and tells him off. The dog does not look in the least distressed by this. At all other times during the handling and when the dog is moving around the ring you can clearly see that he was not unfazed by his tap and is in fact moving quite happily.
> 
> ...


I see that the original video has been taken down, why if nothing is untoward. :sneaky2:

Also the handler slaps the dog twice. Once on the back rear and then on the side. Also I can hear no growl or see an aggressive posture from the dog. Far from it the only aggression is from the handler.

I would throw those 'suspicious motives' right back at you.

What we have here is wrong, pure and simple. If there was no slapping and rough handling there would not be an issue.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I didn't like the way she picked the dog up, I don't have a dog small enough to pick up but would have thought you ought to support the rear end. Can't agree she hit the dog though, it was a tap with finger tips from what I could see not even a prod just a tap


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> I didn't like the way she picked the dog up, I don't have a dog small enough to pick up but would have thought you ought to support the rear end. Can't agree she hit the dog though, it was a tap with finger tips from what I could see not even a prod just a tap


She slaps/hits the dog twice.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't care what anyone's motives are, but there's still no excuse for poor handling. No, the dog wasn't in any obvious pain after being *tapped*, or after the rough positioning, but whether or not there are any ulterior motives on the part of anyone, the sort of handling shown in the video doesn't do the show world any favours. 

There was a recent video posted about a rough handed gundog trainer with a spaniel, everyone was appalled at how he treated the dog, and rightly so. Why should it be any different with showing? 

I don't have the sound up on my laptop so didn't hear the dog growl or not.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

If you are unhappy with the handling you have witnessed (and I can completely understand why, although I don't agree those were "hits" I still think she was overly brusque with the dog and don't like to see such handling) then the appropriate thing would be to raise your concerns with the show organisers, the KC, the Daschund Club, anyone 'official' rather than joining an online forum specifically to post the video and vilify the handler.

I was at Leeds on the Sunday and can honestly say that video is in no way typical of the handling I saw and that the vast majority of the dogs were chilled out and happy.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't care what anyone's motives are, but there's still no excuse for poor handling. No, the dog wasn't in any obvious pain after being *tapped*, or after the rough positioning, but whether or not there are any ulterior motives on the part of anyone, the sort of handling shown in the video doesn't do the show world any favours.
> 
> There was a recent video posted about a rough handed gundog trainer with a spaniel, everyone was appalled at how he treated the dog, and rightly so. Why should it be any different with showing?
> 
> I don't have the sound up on my laptop so didn't hear the dog growl or not.


I'm not going to comment any further on this subject, I am surprised and a little sad that what I see can't or won't be seen by others for whatever reason.

I stand by my motives, that this wrong and a bad advertisement for dog showing and owning.

My next post will be of the happier variety


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> I see that the original video has been taken down, why if nothing is untoward. :sneaky2:
> 
> Also the handler slaps the dog twice. Once on the back rear and then on the side. Also I can hear no growl or see an aggressive posture from the dog. Far from it the only aggression is from the handler.
> 
> ...


What suspicious motives could you possibly have against me? I don't show dachsunds and don't know anyone who does. I will stand up against cruelty wherever I see it, but this blatantly isn't it - even posters on here who usually take great delight in jumping on those who show are saying that. So why *are* you trying to pretend it is? Why *did* you edit out the examples of this woman handling the dog perfectly adequately?

If it is a crusade against cruelty you are after, surely in your browsing utube dog vids you have come across some real cruelty that you could get your teeth into instead of trying to pretend a correcting tap is something it isn't?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

To the original poster:

You yourself say you wernt there - So you couldnt of heard conversations or seen the full context of the video so on that basis I think its quite unfair of you to start a thread vitimising 1 person who you dont know based on an incident which you didnt witness in person   

Also what was your aim of posting on this forum? Surely if you were so worried about the safety and wellbeing of the dog in question you should report it via official means? Via the KC?

As apose to attempting to start some sort of weird online witch hunt which quite frankly is just pathetic.

But you know what is even sadder if you are involved in the show world in some way or a close friend is which is why you started this thread then how incredibly sad there such sour losers and that your willing to try show the show world as a whole in this manner lol ut:


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> She slaps/hits the dog twice.


Agree to disagree then, looked like a touch with fingers to me thats all. I don't frequent dog shows and have no axe to grind either way just commenting on what I saw on the video you posted. You think it was a slap/hit I didn't

My dog likes to greet people by leaning against you and having his rump slapped a sort of hard pat if you like, lord knows what you would class that as


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't care what anyone's motives are, but there's still no excuse for poor handling. No, the dog wasn't in any obvious pain after being *tapped*, or after the rough positioning, but whether or not there are any ulterior motives on the part of anyone, the sort of handling shown in the video doesn't do the show world any favours.


I agree wholeheartedly with this - but there is a difference between rough handling and cruelty. I don't like rough handling at all - there is no need for it and it certainly does the show world no favours - but in the unedited version there are plenty of examples of this handler handling properly. Doesn't excuse the rough handling at the table, but it does put a tap because the dog growled into perspective.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> There was a recent video posted about a rough handed gundog trainer with a spaniel, everyone was appalled at how he treated the dog, and rightly so. Why should it be any different with showing?
> .





juliebriggs said:


> I'm not going to comment any further on this subject, I am surprised and a little sad that what I see can't or won't be seen by others for whatever reason.


OP. as the above clip from SL shows, present people on here with real cruelty and they will be up in arms about it. Insult their intelligence and try to stir them into a witch hunt over something which is nothing more than a trumped up cruelty charge (probably because of a personal vendetta) and you will find the reaction you have met with here.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

juliebriggs said:


> I see that the original video has been taken down, why if nothing is untoward. :sneaky2:


Quite possibly because they're concerned about people trying to start a witch hunt.

I absolutely agree that the handling was far rougher at a few points than I would like to see but she wasn't handling the dog like that constantly throughout the longer video.

As I said the sensible and appropriate thing to do would have been to report the mishandling to the show organisers, the KC and the Daschund club.

If you wanted to start a discussion about rough handling in showing then you could have done so without posting a very specific recent example. I can only surmise that it's the handler in particular you have taken issue with rather than the issue of poor handling throughout showing.


----------



## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> The video, among a great many, are posted on Emily Guys Facebook page, Emily attends many shows taking photos and video and posts them for the Show Dog community.
> 
> Like I stated I did not attend the show. I also do not show myself but have attended them. I do now know who the handler is as well as the judge, (google is great isn't it).
> 
> ...


Why would I friend Emily? How strange 

If you know who the handler and judge are, report it. I'm still not seeing the point of posting the video here. It's just odd as a first post, no introduction, no mention of who you are, or what your involvement in dogs is...

And why this particular dog and handler? If you're browsing dog show videos, I'm sure you can find many examples of this kind of rough handling and worse.
I don't condone it at all, but I don't understand why you're singling out this one instance. Why not just report it and be done with it?


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't care what anyone's motives are, but there's still no excuse for poor handling. No, the dog wasn't in any obvious pain after being *tapped*, or after the rough positioning, but whether or not there are any ulterior motives on the part of anyone, the sort of handling shown in the video doesn't do the show world any favours.
> 
> There was a recent video posted about a rough handed gundog trainer with a spaniel, everyone was appalled at how he treated the dog, and rightly so.  Why should it be any different with showing?
> 
> I don't have the sound up on my laptop so didn't hear the dog growl or not.


Totally agree about the video showing trainer, everyone seemed to agree it was wrong yet with this video it seems to be ok because it was just a tap!
I actually thought it did look like the lady raised her hand to the dog twice.

What really surprises me is how did this dog get placed 1st if it growled at judge, I always thought the dog was judged not only on its standard but its temperament, how it acted in the ring etc but obviously not.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Why would I friend Emily? How strange
> 
> If you know who the handler and judge are, report it. I'm still not seeing the point of posting the video here. It's just odd as a first post, no introduction, no mention of who you are, or what your involvement in dogs is...
> 
> ...


I wasn't going to post again....but.

You asked where the video came from I answered your question and provided the source.

I now know the handler and the judge as previously stated via Google and have now sent an email to the KC with links to the videos although one has been taken down.

As for 'many examples' sorry no I haven't particularly in relation to slapping (sorry tapping  )

I have stated my involvement with dogs go back and read. Who am I, my forum name is real I don't hide behind obscure nicknames.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Regardless of why the OP posted here as a first post 

the handling it's way too force based for my liking but what is worse was manner in which the dog was lifted. Surely in an arena of breed experts correct lifting with both fore and rear supported should be the norm to help prevent the spinal injuries prevalent within the breed.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> Totally agree about the video showing trainer, everyone seemed to agree it was wrong yet with this video it seems to be ok because it was just a tap!
> I actually thought it did look like the lady raised her hand to the dog twice.
> 
> What really surprises me is how did this dog get placed 1st if it growled at judge, I always thought the dog was judged not only on its standard but its temperament, how it acted in the ring etc but obviously not.


He had already been placed 1st before he growled. The video was the dog challenge - ie where all unbeaten class winners compete for best dog. Not being there and not knowing why he growled - it could have been at anything from feeling the judge was too close to some bystander doing something - it is impossible to say why the judge discounted it and felt that, even with the growl, it was a better sample of the breed and more worthy of the reserve CC than the 2nd in Open, or the Limit or Post Grad winners.


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## Scabbers (Jul 26, 2013)

If that's whats called a smack I dread to think what people call me. 

I would never hit or smack my dog if they did anything wrong. My dog is very sensitive and a slight raised voice will get me results. I dare not shout as that alone would do damage.

But I have smacked him harder then that whilst im playing with him.

A good few smacks landed on the rump gets his tail going fast! To the point where he might take off like a helicopter!

I will trap his hips between my legs and land a few swats on the but and he LOVES it! He wriggles his head between everyones legs to get them to do it more. But people think he is being rude and trying to sniff there bits 

WHOOPS


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> I wasn't going to post again....but.
> 
> You asked where the video came from I answered your question and provided the source.
> 
> ...


See, if you were as invloved with dogs as you say you are, you would have known that you didn't have to google to find the name of the dog and the handler - you would have known exactly where to find the results from Leeds dog show 

With everything you type you confirm my suspicions more and more.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> See, if you were as invloved with dogs as you say you are, you would have known that you didn't have to google to find the name of the dog and the handler - you would have known exactly where to find the results from Leeds dog show
> 
> With everything you type you confirm my suspicions more and more.


What are you ranting on about.

Google - Leeds Champ Show 2013

Results - http://www.highampress.co.uk/leeds.pdf Judge names

ut:


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## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

That was nasty.
Sorry but a slap is a slap and thats a little dog, she slapped it once on the bum and then with both her hands, if the dogs not distressed its probably because hes used to it.
Whether people have seen worse is no defence. If I see a mother slap her child round his head, thats ok, cos I've seen cases of abuse that are obviously worse?

Some of this showing malarky is ridiculous, I hate the way they are pulled around, I often wonder what sort of relationship these people have with their dogs?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> What are you ranting on about.
> 
> Google - Leeds Champ Show 2013
> 
> ...


Not ranting at all - hmmm -getting rattled now are you? Just pointing out the fact that you had to google in order to know this when anyone who knows as much about dog showing as you profess to do would know to go straight to highampress 

Never mind - you are beginning to get the show haters on now who will all agree with you that it is major cruelty despite the evidence of their own eyes - kind of the result you wanted in the first place, eh?

Think someone ought to contact the lady in question and let her know what you are doing. It would be interesting to hear it from her point of view - are you prepared for you and the forum to be prosecuted for libel?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

bluesupero said:


> That was nasty.
> Sorry but a slap is a slap and thats a little dog, she slapped it once on the bum and then with both her hands, if the dogs not distressed its probably because hes used to it.
> Whether people have seen worse is no defence. If I see a mother slap her child round his head, thats ok, cos I've seen cases of abuse that are obviously worse?
> 
> Some of this showing malarky is ridiculous, I hate the way they are pulled around, I often wonder what sort of relationship these people have with their dogs?


Totally agree but this isn't about showing, the vast majority of dog showing people love and treat their dogs well and would not dream of any sort of physical chastisement.

As I said I visit Crufts and other shows and I'm always amazed by how much the people love and care for their beautiful dogs.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Not ranting at all - hmmm -getting rattled now are you? Just pointing out the fact that you had to google in order to know this when anyone who knows as much about dog showing as you profess to do would know to go straight to highampress


Or pick up Dog World


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

If a show dog has to be slapped..tapped..yanked by collar or is growling at a Judge...it should not be placed...imho...end of story.

Show dogs are supposed to be not just of great conformation but also of wonderful temperament. So why did this dog get placed if it needs slapping about to do as its told by its owner!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Disgusting, If I was the judge I would have asked her to leave the ring. Dogs are not robots, and some handlers expect to much from them! 

Regardless of how hard she hit the dog, there was no need. She first taps on the bottom and then again each side of shoulders. That wouldnt teach the dog anything, although may have a negative affect when next put on the table.. Couldexplains why the dog was not doing as 'expected' in this case.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Not ranting at all - hmmm -getting rattled now are you? Just pointing out the fact that you had to google in order to know this when anyone who knows as much about dog showing as you profess to do would know to go straight to highampress
> 
> Never mind - you are beginning to get the show haters on now who will all agree with you that it is major cruelty despite the evidence of their own eyes - kind of the result you wanted in the first place, eh?
> 
> Think someone ought to contact the lady in question and let her know what you are doing. It would be interesting to hear it from her point of view - are you prepared for you and the forum to be prosecuted for libel?


Does she or does she not:

A: Pick up the dog roughly by the neck and left ear.

B: Pick up the dog poorly to place on the table

C: Slap the dog twice while on the table with the Judge

The answer to all the above is yes. So please tell me, in your infinite wisdom, how pointing this out is libellous.

As for contacting the 'lady' I'm sure if they have correct procedures then the KC will be doing so.

I really can't see what points you are trying to make anymore.


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## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

I am not against showing in the slightest, I said 'Some of this showing malarky' as in the spiteful women with the daschunds, sorry slapping is never acceptable.

I go to many shows, and love the atmosphere and see the majority of people like me who love their dogs and are enjoying activities with them.
But as with most competition sport you get some nasty, all out to win people, who don't give 2 hoots about their animals, I grew up with it in the show jumping/eventing world and now see it in the dog world too!!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> I wasn't going to post again....but.
> 
> You asked where the video came from I answered your question and provided the source.
> 
> ...


You have? Where? Do you own a dog? Do you work with dogs? 
I agree that the way show dogs are treated needs to be looked at, but I'm not seeing you trying to improve the lot of show dogs, I'm seeing a personal vendetta against one handler and dog.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I also see the comments with regards to the dog growling at the judge - I wonder why a dog that is in the show ring, is growling. Maybe the negative affect the owner has had on the dog...

I would be concerned if my dog was to growl at a judge, and would remove myself from the ring, not hit, slap, tap (whatever you wanna call it) the dog.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Wow that looks like really rough handling of the poor little dog.

A frustrated shower perhaps?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> You have? Where? Do you own a dog? Do you work with dogs?
> I agree that the way show dogs are treated needs to be looked at, but I'm not seeing you trying to improve the lot of show dogs, I'm seeing a personal vendetta against one handler and dog.


1. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/318256-leeds-dog-show-mistreatment-dog-4.html#post1063089442

2. Yes 3

3. No, Relevance of this please

4. Ridiculous, the dog is beautiful. The Handler needs correcting.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> Wow that looks like really rough handling of the poor little dog.
> 
> A frustrated shower perhaps?


She got the reserve CC with this dog and second in Open with her other dog, so not so frustrated


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> She got the reserve CC with this dog and second in Open with her other dog, so not so frustrated


I take it you know her personally?

Then how about you pointing out the error of her ways and correcting her showing style.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> She got the reserve CC with this dog and second in Open with her other dog, so not so frustrated


My word. And this is the way she handles the dog?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> She got the reserve CC with this dog and second in Open with her other dog, so not so frustrated


How can a dog that threatens the judge get placed? 

Surely that shows either temperament issues or a nervous dog?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

rona said:


> How can a dog that threatens the judge get placed?
> 
> Surely that shows either temperament issues or a nervous dog?


Precisely which is why the absolute nonsense about growling is utter rubbish.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> 1. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/318256-leeds-dog-show-mistreatment-dog-4.html#post1063089442
> 
> 2. Yes 3
> 
> ...


Try to see it from this side.
You show up on a public forum. No introduction, no way for members to connect with you, get a feel for who you are, and your first post is a controversial video. 
You say you were not at the show, don't know the dog or handler, and that you just happened to see this video somewhere, yet it was you who uploaded the video.
When pressed, it's actually an unlisted video that you copied, edited, and made public. Kind of uncool in and of itself.

If you feel that the handler needs correcting, that's not at all what you presented in the OP (now heavily edited). You did not ask what recourse there is for reporting this sort of thing - that information was offered to you by people who do want to see this sort of handling go the way of the dinosaurs.

Basically the whole way you come across to me is very vendetta-ish.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> She got the reserve CC with this dog and second in Open with her other dog, so not so frustrated


just a bully then


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think I'll be asking our trainer at ring craft tonight what he thinks of a dog being placed that growls at the judge, and what he'd do, it would be interesting to hear the response from another judge. Also, what his view is of such rough handling.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> I wasn't going to post again....but.
> 
> You asked where the video came from I answered your question and provided the source.
> 
> ...


No need for the sarcasam & rolling eyes, I am not going to agree with you if I don't



Spellweaver said:


> Not ranting at all - hmmm -getting rattled now are you? Just pointing out the fact that you had to google in order to know this when anyone who knows as much about dog showing as you profess to do would know to go straight to highampress
> 
> Never mind - you are beginning to get the show haters on now who will all agree with you that it is major cruelty despite the evidence of their own eyes - kind of the result you wanted in the first place, eh?
> Think someone ought to contact the lady in question and let her know what you are doing. It would be interesting to hear it from her point of view - are you prepared for you and the forum to be prosecuted for libel?


Well I will accept the role of neutral observer then, am neither for nor against shows just not interested really  I didn't think she picked the dog up correctly, I did not think she slapped or hit the dog just tapped it with her fingers, seemed a bit rough but not major cruelty.

Obviously this is based on some second hand video that for all I know could have been edited, I wasn't there, I don't know the woman

End of my witness statement M'Lord

PS no comment on growling or otherwise as I don't have the sound on


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

bluesupero said:


> That was nasty.
> Sorry but a slap is a slap and thats a little dog, she slapped it once on the bum and then with both her hands, if the dogs not distressed its probably because hes used to it.
> Whether people have seen worse is no defence. If I see a mother slap her child round his head, thats ok, cos I've seen cases of abuse that are obviously worse?
> 
> Some of this showing malarky is ridiculous, I hate the way they are pulled around, I often wonder what sort of relationship these people have with their dogs?


The same as any other sphere in dog ownership.....some adore and dote on their dogs, some see them as a means to an end and others abuse.
Just because of one woman, not all show people are bad......*most* on here seem very caring


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Does she or does she not:
> 
> A: Pick up the dog roughly by the neck and left ear.


No, she picks him up to put him on the table with her hands underneath his armpits. She does not touch his neck and ear. I would have liked to see her support his backside when she picked him up, but trying to pretend she picked him up by the neck and left ear is libellous.



juliebriggs said:


> B: Pick up the dog poorly to place on the table


Well, as I said above I would have preferred her to support his back end when she did so.



juliebriggs said:


> C: Slap the dog twice while on the table with the Judge


She tapped him. Trying to make it anything else is libellous.



juliebriggs said:


> The answer to all the above is yes. So please tell me, in your infinite wisdom, how pointing this out is libellous.


The answer is only yes if you either a) should have gone to Sepcsavers or b) have a vendetta to wage.



juliebriggs said:


> I really can't see what points you are trying to make anymore.


Only because you don;t want to. Shame that - might have saved yourself a hefty legal fee.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Try to see it from this side.
> You show up on a public forum. No introduction, no way for members to connect with you, get a feel for who you are, and your first post is a controversial video.
> You say you were not at the show, don't know the dog or handler, and that you just happened to see this video somewhere, yet it was you who uploaded the video.
> When pressed, it's actually an unlisted video that you copied, edited, and made public. Kind of uncool in and of itself.
> ...


Try and keep up.

All the above I have answered, I edited the OP to include the original video that I saw via Facebook. So only edited the original video link which has now been removed, if nothing wrong why?

If pointing out what I, and others, think is wrong is 'vendetta-ish' to you then so be it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I have to disagree with you Spellweaver, although I agree the two taps she gave the dog weren't very hard, and yes, I rough house with my dogs much harder than that, it was the intent, and the fact that the dog growled at the judge. I also didn't like the way she hauled the dog up at the front end first, and then the back end, there are better ways to place a daschund. We've got two come to ringcraft that are treated much more gently than this dog was.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> I take it you know her personally?
> 
> Then how about you pointing out the error of her ways and correcting her showing style.


I don't know her at all - as I have already said, I don't know anyone who shows dachsunds.

I got my info about her wins by a) watching the original video instead of your biased editing and b) looking on highampress

See what I meant about you not having to google for info if you *really* knew as much about showing dogs as you profess?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> No, she picks him up to put him on the table with her hands underneath his armpits. She does not touch his neck and ear. I would have liked to see her support his backside when she picked him up, but trying to pretend she picked him up by the neck and left ear is libellous.


The neck and ear grab is at the begging of the video when the dog is on the ground. What was that you were saying about Specsavers.



> Well, as I said above I would have preferred her to support his back end when she did so.


Good



> She tapped him. Trying to make it anything else is libellous.


Interpretation, slap, tap hit. Not libellous (beleive me  )



> The answer is only yes if you either a) should have gone to Sepcsavers or b) have a vendetta to wage.


See above.



> Only because you don;t want to. Shame that - might have saved yourself a hefty legal fee.


Grow up.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> I don't know her at all - as I have already said, I don't know anyone who shows dachsunds.
> 
> I got my info about her wins by a) watching the original video instead of your biased editing and b) looking on highampress
> 
> See what I meant about you not having to google for info if you *really* knew as much about showing dogs as you profess?


I haven't seen OP stating they know a lot about showing?

That's beside the point though isn't it.

A woman has roughly treated her dog in the show ring for all to see and a "judge" has placed a dog that threatened them


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Personally not really interested in the intrigue, motives for posting etc but on the same hand I do not like trial by public forum, particularly when the other party has not been given a chance to comment. 

Deal with it appropriately, raise directly with the person involved or whoever you raise such things with in the show world.

If it was major cruelty/mistreatment then there would be a possibility of prosecution which would be jeopardised by posting vidoes on forums and inviting others encouraging agreement with your view.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Try to see it from this side.
> You show up on a public forum. No introduction, no way for members to connect with you, get a feel for who you are, and your first post is a controversial video.
> You say you were not at the show, don't know the dog or handler, and that you just happened to see this video somewhere, yet it was you who uploaded the video.
> When pressed, it's actually an unlisted video that you copied, edited, and made public. Kind of uncool in and of itself.
> ...


People link videos all the time on PF...just because the OP is a new member, does not mean she isn't entitled to link to the video and give her opinion. which actually seems to be shared by many (including respected show people - ie DevilDogz and SleepingLion).

If OP just described what she saw in the video, or didn't put up a link not only to her edited version but also to the original (I viewed both) then I'd say you have a point but she put the clip out there for people to observe and give their opinions. She doesn't have to justify her motives or anything else. She has as much right to post a video clip and give her opinion as a VIP member with 5,000 posts.

OP has stated that she has reported the handling of this dog to the KC. So she has fulfilled her moral duty and maybe it feels more comfortable for her having done so with the agreement of many PF'ers that the handling of that dog was not acceptable.

The OP doesn't strike me as somebody with a vendetta. Maybe a p!ssed off dog lover that isn't happy at the treatment of that poor dog. I share her view. Is my opinion more valid or less of a vendetta because I am an established member? No, I think not


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> Personally not really interested in the intrigue, motives for posting etc but on the same hand I do not like trial by public forum, particularly when the other party has not been given a chance to comment.
> 
> *Deal with it appropriately, raise directly with the person involved or whoever you raise such things with in the show world.*
> 
> If it was major cruelty/mistreatment then there would be a possibility of prosecution which would be jeopardised by posting vidoes on forums and inviting others encouraging agreement with your view.


To the bolded - exactly. What is happening in the video is not cool in my eyes. 
What is happening on this thread is not cool either.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Deal with it like an adult.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> I don't know her at all - as I have already said, I don't know anyone who shows dachsunds.
> 
> I got my info about her wins by a) watching the original video instead of your biased editing and b) looking on highampress
> 
> See what I meant about you not having to google for info if you *really* knew as much about showing dogs as you profess?


You mean the original Video link I posted that has been removed from Youtube. My edit was of the handler, I removed the other handlers and their dogs to get to the pint of the post.

Where have I stated that I 'know much about showing dogs'. I stated I visit Crufts and other dog shows, as a spectator may I add, because I love dogs. I didn't realise you had to be an expert. 

What I do know is that it doesn't take an 'expert' to see when something is not right.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Try and keep up.
> 
> All the above I have answered, I edited the OP to include the original video that I saw via Facebook. So only edited the original video link which has now been removed, if nothing wrong why?
> 
> If pointing out what I, and others, think is wrong is 'vendetta-ish' to you then so be it.


Excuse me?
You try and keep up.

The interwebz are full of trolls and troublemakers. Credibility doesn't come free.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> Personally not really interested in the intrigue, motives for posting etc but on the same hand I do not like trial by public forum, particularly when the other party has not been given a chance to comment.
> 
> Deal with it appropriately, raise directly with the person involved or whoever you raise such things with in the show world.
> 
> If it was major cruelty/mistreatment then there would be a possibility of prosecution which would be jeopardised by posting vidoes on forums and inviting others encouraging agreement with your view.


That seems very fair, and if you look back over my posts not once have I used the words cruelty.

Do I think she mistreated it? in my opinion in the circumstances of it being in the show ring and being physically chastised yes I do.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have to disagree with you Spellweaver, although I agree the two taps she gave the dog weren't very hard, and yes, I rough house with my dogs much harder than that, it was the intent, and the fact that the dog growled at the judge. I also didn't like the way she hauled the dog up at the front end first, and then the back end, there are better ways to place a daschund. We've got two come to ringcraft that are treated much more gently than this dog was.


I agree with you about the picking up - and have said so from the start. I think it's impossible to be judgemental about the growl without being there and seeing what happened - on the video it did not seen very loud and there was no accompanying curl of a lip or any other signs of aggression. He showed quite happily after that. And remember, this was a junior dog and may still be unused to the show scene. I don't know when dachsunds were in the ring the Leeds, but he may have been at the show a long time and had already won his class, so maybe it was just that he was getting fed up. It's impossible to tell without being there.

I would be the first to say that any dog showing agression should be taken straight out of the ring, without even waiting for the judge or the steward to ask the handler to leave - but from what I could see on the vid I don't _think_ this was agression - but as I said, impossible to be sure unless you were there.

I would also report an aggressive dog if the judge did not order it out of the ring - and actually did so when a DDB went for Gabby at Driffield once.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

chichi said:


> People link videos all the time on PF...just because the OP is a new member, does not mean she isn't entitled to link to the video and give her opinion. which actually seems to be shared by many (including respected show people - ie DevilDogz and SleepingLion).
> 
> If OP just described what she saw in the video, or didn't put up a link not only to her edited version but also to the original (I viewed both) then I'd say you have a point but she put the clip out there for people to observe and give their opinions. She doesn't have to justify her motives or anything else. She has as much right to post a video clip and give her opinion as a VIP member with 5,000 posts.
> 
> ...


Thank you for bringing the whole topic back to the point, for a second there I was beginning to think the real crux of this matter was being lost.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

bluesupero said:


> Some of this showing malarky is ridiculous, I hate the way they are pulled around, I often wonder what sort of relationship these people have with their dogs?


And I often wonder why people think it's okay to make judgement on people and their dogs that they know nothing about............................


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

It doesnt matter if the growl was of an aggressive nature or not - what ever the reason its not acceptable.
A dog that is growling is unhappy for whatever reason, and as a decent handler you want to remove your dog from that situation.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

bluesupero said:


> Some of this showing malarky is ridiculous, I hate the way they are pulled around, I often wonder what sort of relationship these people have with their dogs?


I have an amazing relationship with my dogs, they have the same character as me - nuts! :devil: In the ring they sometimes do as I ask, other times they mess about - their dogs and I would rather see a dog with abit of personality in the ring than a stiff dog, just a shame some handlers want to knock their dogs characters out and more fool the judges, for knocking dogs back that havent played ball the whole time. (ALTHOUGH I know many judges that dont and also like a lively dog)

I often hate to see how some dogs are dragged around on walks by young kids, or clueless people in hot weather ect.. Regardless of your reasons for owning a dog there are responsible and irresponsible in all areas - pet people, show people, working people.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Devil-Dogz said:


> It doesnt matter if the growl was of an aggressive nature or not - what ever the reason its not acceptable.
> A dog that is growling is unhappy for whatever reason, and as a decent handler you want to remove your dog from that situation.


Having looked at the video again I cannot hear any growl from the dog, I have listened through speakers and headphones so where did the mention of growling come from.


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## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

Flippin' 'eck, have been out, been post office and done some shopping, and the debate still goes on...
welcome to the forum Julie Briggs, it is in fact full of lovely people and they have helped me out many a time with queries about my beautiful Girl.

Now for another walk with my adorable, show standard, fun loving 11 month old Border Collie, Who has never been hit, slapped or tapped, let alone kicked or toes trodden on for good show positioning....Has never ever had a voice raised to her, except in recall,
I am doing what most of us here do, spending time with my lovely furry bestie!!

Oh and will be visiting some shows at the weekend,,,,but hey thats another story!!

Be Happy Everyone!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Having looked at the video again I cannot hear any growl from the dog, I have listened through speakers and headphones so where did the mention of growling come from.


On about page two or three I think, someone said she tapped the dog because it growled at the judge. I still don't have my volume up so can't comment to say the dog definitely did/didn't.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

My show bred dog hates me, I can see it in her eyes


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Having looked at the video again I cannot hear any growl from the dog, I have listened through speakers and headphones so where did the mention of growling come from.


Another poster commented that the tap/slap on the bottom was done to correct the growl..I also didnt hear one, but only watched video once.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Another poster commented that the tap/slap on the bottom was done to correct the growl..I also didnt hear one, but only watched video once.


I just can't hear it on either video.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> On about page two or three I think, someone said she tapped the dog because it growled at the judge. I still don't have my volume up so can't comment to say the dog definitely did/didn't.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> My show bred dog hates me, I can see it in her eyes


Beautiful, perhaps you should slap it, it may love you more.


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## bluesupero (Oct 3, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have an amazing relationship with my dogs, they have the same character as me - nuts! :devil: In the ring they sometimes do as I ask, other times they mess about - their dogs and I would rather see a dog with abit of personality in the ring than a stiff dog, just a shame some handlers want to knock their dogs characters out and more fool the judges, for knocking dogs back that havent played ball the whole time. (ALTHOUGH I know many judges that dont and also like a lively dog)
> 
> I often hate to see how some dogs are dragged around on walks by young kids, or clueless people in hot weather ect.. Regardless of your reasons for owning a dog there are responsible and irresponsible in all areas - pet people, show people, working people.


Hey Devil Dogz, I meant no digz at the show world , read my 2nd post, just saying 'some', the same as with the geegees.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I agree she was to rough with the dog, I don't like it, but also I don't know what purpose of posting it to a public forum was? You know the judge the handler and I'm sure the dog's KC name why not just report it? I would of done, I also think it's unfair to carry out a public trail without the subject being allowed to comment/defend themselves...


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Meezey said:


> And I often wonder why people think it's okay to make judgement on people and their dogs that they know nothing about............................


Oh my lord Meezy it happens every day (at least in the world of PF anyway) Everyday someone is making judgements about what dogs people choose, how they walk, train, feed them, what equipment they use, what weather conditions they go out in and it goes on and on...... Have dog be judged


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Beautiful, perhaps you should slap it, it may love you more.


I regularly beat her with a big stick, which I make her fetch first, she is a retriever after all. And she's starved, obviously


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

bluesupero said:


> Hey Devil Dogz, I meant no digz at the show world , read my 2nd post, just saying 'some', the same as with the geegees.


I agree also, I have seen it first hand although I can also say that those that show themselves up (as thats what they do) arent seen in a good light by most anyways


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I agree she was to rough with the dog, I don't like it, but also I don't know what purpose of posting it to a public forum was? You know the judge the handler and I'm sure the dog's KC name why not just report it? I would of done, I also think it's unfair to carry out a public trail without the subject being allowed to comment/defend themselves...


I posted to see if I was right or wrong in my original feelings after seeing the video. I thought what better place than an open public forum relating to pets.

At that point I did not know the name of the dog, handler or Judge, just the show which I got from the video who's link was posted on Facebook.

On the whole most have agreed with my initial assessment and then I searched for the particulars needed for me to send an email to the KC. I should add the contents of my email are on the lines of asking if the actions of the handler are acceptable based on the rules that is all.

As for defending themselves, this isn't a trial it is people discussing a publicly viewable video of someone's actions. The original video was public on Facebook.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Having looked at the video again I cannot hear any growl from the dog, I have listened through speakers and headphones so where did the mention of growling come from.


From me - it was on the ORIGINAL video - you know, the one that *you* edited to make it look as bad as possible for this handler.

I have said from my first post that I did not agree with her rough handling - but if you hadn't edited out all the parts where she handled a perfectly well behaved dog in a pefectly acceptable manner then posters on here would have more perspective on things and be able to form a more accurate opinion rather than the opinion they formed after watching just your own biased editing.

Well, congratulations, your biased editing has worked - you have managed to get people riled up by not showing them the full picture.

That original video has now been taken down - probably as a result of what has been going on - so unfortunately all people can now see is your attempt to make it look worse than it is for whatever purpose of your own.

Such a shame.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> From me - it was on the ORIGINAL video - you know, the one that *you* edited to make it look as bad as possible for this handler.
> 
> I have said from my first post that I did not agree with her rough handling - but if you hadn't edited out all the parts where she handled a perfectly well behaved dog in a pefectly acceptable manner then posters on here would have more perspective on things and be able to form a more accurate opinion rather than the opinion they formed after watching just your own biased editing.
> 
> ...


Oh dear, how convenient. so the growl is on the original video only.

The one they have taken down that would show without a doubt that it did growl.

Doesn't make much sense that.

So then folks you can treat your dog fine for 99.9% of the time and slap it the rest. It will be ok because mostly you treat it fine. Mostly

Big fan of the X-Files were you. 

By the way I have the Original as well, guess what.... no growling.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have only just seen this. Have to say I cant see anything too wrong with the handling. It would be interesting to have seen some other dogs being handled. I have no idea how dachsunds are normally picked up but I would have thought some support would be helpful.

As for the taps, I took them to be a way of diverting the dogs attention and certainly not a smack or anything supposed to upset the dog. It would be a bit counter productive to whack your dog and make it cringe while the judge is looking at it!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I have only just seen this. Have to say I cant see anything too wrong with the handling. It would be interesting to have seen some other dogs being handled. I have no idea how dachsunds are normally picked up but I would have thought some support would be helpful.
> 
> As for the taps, I took them to be a way of diverting the dogs attention and certainly not a smack or anything supposed to upset the dog. It would be a bit counter productive to whack your dog and make it cringe while the judge is looking at it!


And yet that is what it does.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Oh dear, how convenient. so the growl is on the original video only.
> 
> The one they have taken down that would show without a doubt that it did growl.
> 
> ...


She tapped it........................... I wouldn't say that was a slap, while agree she was a rough I wouldn't say she slapped the dog..


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Oh dear, how convenient. so the growl is on the original video only.
> 
> The one they have taken down that would show without a doubt that it did growl.
> 
> Doesn't make much sense that.


*YOU* were the one who edited it ut:



juliebriggs said:


> Big fan of the X-Files were you.


Run out of cogent arguments have you? :Yawn:

It's always a sign when people start behaving like this that they are losing their argument and so can only resort to childish personal attacks as a diversionary tactic. :lol:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> And yet that is what it does.


Rubbish. It doesn't even flinch


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> *YOU* were the one who edited it ut:
> 
> Run out of cogent arguments have you? :Yawn:
> 
> It's always a sign when people start behaving like this that they are losing their argument and can only resort to childish personal attacks. :lol:


The link to the original video shot by E. Guy that I linked was not edited by me, hence the reason for linking it.

It and my edit does NOT have any growling.

Next.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Rubbish. It doesn't even flinch


Leeds Champs Show 2013 - YouTube

At 0:23 the dogs goes lower from the 'slap'.

What was that about specsavers again.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> and my edit does NOT have any growling.
> 
> Next.


Exactly - why did you edit it out?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wow so you go to shows and have nothing against shows or show dogs? Yet you will post this:

"This is the quite shocking treatment dished out to a lovely little dog by what I can only presume to be it's owner. *Is this what people do in the show ring*."

Surely if you are at all these shows you would know the answer to the question?

No this is not what people do in the show ring...

I can't help but feel there is a hidden agenda here, like I said don't agree with the rough handling, but something is just not sitting right with me...


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Forgetting the treatment of the dog on the table...looking at the vid clip from the very beginning...that woman is handling the dog like its a sack of sh1t imho

Picking at it to get it to stand straight in the line; she is grabbing at the throat area, as well as other places.

I see no loving care for that dog. Clearly...that dog is not enjoying the experience...can't say I blame him


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Exactly - why did you edit it out?


Oh my God. Here we go once more.

The original unedited from Facebook DOES NOT have any growling.

The edited one I posted to show the mis-handling only DOES NOT have any growling in.

I posted the link to the original video to show the whole session. This has been taken down by the people who posted it not me. I presume at the request of the handler. I DO NOT have access to that.

The only thing edited is the length of the video.

So where in the videos did you hear growling.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Wow so you go to shows and have nothing against shows or show dogs? Yet you will post this:
> 
> "This is the quite shocking treatment dished out to a lovely little dog by what I can only presume to be it's owner. *Is this what people do in the show ring*."
> 
> ...


Very bad choice of words, my bad.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Oh my God. Here we go once more.
> 
> The original unedited from Facebook DOES NOT have any growling.
> 
> ...


Sigh. It was in the original when the woman tapped it and told it to stop. Such a pity you had to tamper with it instead of posting the truth. Because of that I just can't bring myself to believe anything you say. If you edit out the good handling to try to blacken someone's character then you are just as likely to edit out anything else that does not agree with your "pretend" version of what happened.

I see you are also not content with libelling this poor woman on here - you have posted your edited version on youtube as well.

Sorry, but I agree with Meezey - there ismjore to this attack of yours than meets the eye.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Sigh. It was in the original when the woman tapped it and told it to stop. Such a pity you had to tamper with it instead of posting the truth. Because of that I just can't bring myself to believe anything you say. If you edit out the good handling to try to blacken someone's character then you are just as likely to edit out anything else that does not agree with your "pretend" version of what happened.
> 
> I see you are also not content with libelling this poor woman on here - you have posted your edited version on youtube as well.
> 
> Sorry, but I agree with Meezey - there ismjore to this attack of yours than meets the eye.


No it was not.

Can you explain why if that was the case and it could prove that the dog growled it has been taken down. Right around the time this thread started. mmmmmmmm


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Sigh. It was in the original when the woman tapped it and told it to stop. Such a pity you had to tamper with it instead of posting the truth. Because of that I just can't bring myself to believe anything you say. If you edit out the good handling to try to blacken someone's character then you are just as likely to edit out anything else that does not agree with your "pretend" version of what happened.
> 
> I see you are also not content with libelling this poor woman on here - you have posted your edited version on youtube as well.
> 
> Sorry, but I agree with Meezey - there ismjore to this attack of yours than meets the eye.


I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say 

The op shortened the video clip to show the handler where she thought they were excessively rough with the dog, other than that, they've not edited it or tried to add anything to make it look more incriminating. The person handling the dog does a good job of that all by themselves.

If you don't want to be shown in a poor light, then you shouldn't do things that may end up putting you in that situation in the first place. If someone is video'd exhibiting their dog in a public place, and is rough with their dog, it's fair to make comment on it.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say
> 
> The op shortened the video clip to show the handler where she thought they were excessively rough with the dog, other than that, they've not edited it or tried to add anything to make it look more incriminating. The person handling the dog does a good job of that all by themselves.
> 
> If you don't want to be shown in a poor light, then you shouldn't do things that may end up putting you in that situation in the first place. If someone is video'd exhibiting their dog in a public place, and is rough with their dog, it's fair to make comment on it.


I am now applying to the major film companies as a sound special effect person. A talent I never knew I had. 

And with that will take my leave of this thread which has become a little too Twilight Zone for me.

Not the Forum though which looks great.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Handler looks like they're panicking at the start and struggling with getting the dog stacked, given how close the judge is on his walk round. It's the initial lift with the neck that's the really rough thing.

On the table, the dog seems more keen on sniffing the judges face and saying hello. The taps looked like they were used to refocus the dogs attention. The dog certainly did not look put in pain or flinch from it, other than it's back legs compressing a bit.

Not a great or pleasant demonstration of handling, but the woman is certainly no Cesar Milan. Probably more worthwhile targetting him.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Sigh. It was in the original when the woman tapped it and told it to stop. Such a pity you had to tamper with it instead of posting the truth. Because of that I just can't bring myself to believe anything you say. If you edit out the good handling to try to blacken someone's character then you are just as likely to edit out anything else that does not agree with your "pretend" version of what happened.
> 
> I see you are also not content with libelling this poor woman on here - you have posted your edited version on youtube as well.
> 
> Sorry, but I agree with Meezey - there ismjore to this attack of yours than meets the eye.


Why is she a "poor" woman? Am I missing something here because all I see is an attack on a newbie for posting a video of handling of a dog at a show, that most members (bar a few) feel is not acceptable.

If the woman is happy with her treatment of the dog, then I don't see why she is "poor" - if she has been caught out and filmed treating the dog harshly (as looks to most of us) then she isn't poor, she's just caught out and maybe will handle the dog with a little more feeling and a little less like a bag of [email protected] in future....no?

I certainly don't see any cruelty case and have seen worse handling of dogs in the park, etc., but somehow you expect a person in the show ring to have a better understanding of the treatment of dogs and certainly not to handle a dog you wish to follow your lead, like it is an item, rather than a beautiful living, breathing pet.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Not a great or pleasant demonstration of handling, but the woman is certainly no Cesar Milan. Probably more worthwhile targetting him.


Not really as thats a totally different thing, regardless of the tap hurting the dog its not acceptable and people need to know this is not what you should expect from showing.

The handler was not in control was all over the place, and as such the dog wasnt shown to its best and it some how was the dogs fault, as the owner felt the need to re direct the dogs attention?

The dog was slaped/taped twice in the video some state because the dog growled, some say because the dog was wanting to greet the judge, just shows how none of us really know what was going on, other than the handler was not very compassionate towards her dog. - we all have our own standards, but there not standards I would put up with.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

chichi said:


> Why is she a "poor" woman? Am I missing something here because all I see is an attack on a newbie for posting a video of handling of a dog at a show, that most members (bar a few) feel is not acceptable.
> 
> If the woman is happy with her treatment of the dog, then I don't see why she is "poor" - if she has been caught out and filmed treating the dog harshly (as looks to most of us) then she isn't poor, she's just caught out and maybe will handle the dog with a little more feeling and a little less like a bag of [email protected] in future....no?
> 
> I certainly don't see any cruelty case and have seen worse handling of dogs in the park, etc., but somehow you expect a person in the show ring to have a better understanding of the treatment of dogs and certainly not to handle a dog you wish to follow your lead, like it is an item, rather than a beautiful living, breathing pet.


If you had seen the full vid and not the OPs edited version of the vid then you would have seen this woman handling her dog in a perfectly acceptable way except for the rough hanlding incident the OP chose to edit and show.

And that is why I called her a poor woman - because someone has edited a video of her handling her dog - edited out all the bits where she handles well, shown only the bits where she handles roughly (and, as I have said from the very beginning, I am not condoning that rough handling) and _then_ tried to make them seem worse than they were by trying to make out she slapped the dog hard enough to make the dog flinch. This person has then come onto this forum with the sole intent of destroying this woman's character - and _then _, not content with that, she has posted her edited version on facebook to further try to make trouble for this woman.

Now, for something as you yourself say is rough handling and not cruelty, don't you think that is OTT?

And all this without the person the OP is attacking being able to defend herself. *That* is cowardly of the OP and is the kind of act that I would not like to be foisted on me - would you? THAT is why I called her a poor woman.

I would have more respect for the OP if she has gone onto this woman's website and posted her comments there. That's what I would have done had I been disgusted at someone mishandling a dog. However, like all cyber-cowards, I guess the OP prefers the relative anonimity of hiding behind a forum and youtube.

It's easy enough to be brave when you try to stir up a forum - how about being brave enough to tell the woman herself?

How about it, OP? Brave enough to put your money where your mouth is?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Personally I think the owner/handler should be shown the thread so they can voice their opinion  As the contact details are also public, it's easy to do.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Oh lord. 



Spellweaver said:


> If you had seen the full vid and not the OPs edited version of the vid then you would have seen this woman handling her dog in a perfectly acceptable way except for the rough hanlding incident the OP chose to edit and show.


People have seen the full vid. It was taken down by the owner not me.



> And that is why I called her a poor woman - because someone has edited a video of her handling her dog - edited out all the bits where she handles well, shown only the bits where she handles roughly (and, as I have said from the very beginning, I am not condoning that rough handling) and _then_ tried to make them seem worse than they were by trying to make out she slapped the dog hard enough to make the dog flinch. This person has then come onto this forum with the sole intent of destroying this woman's character - and _then _, not content with that, she has posted her edited version on facebook to further try to make trouble for this woman.


The full video is equally poor handling. I haven't posted anything on Facebook.
In 'my view' the dog flinches.



> Now, for something as you yourself say is rough handling and not cruelty, don't you think that is OTT?


I never mentioned cruelty, you did.



> And all this without the person the OP is attacking being able to defend herself. *That* is cowardly of the OP and is the kind of act that I would not like to be foisted on me - would you? THAT is why I called her a poor woman.


Join the forum and do so.



> I would have more respect for the OP if she has gone onto this woman's website and posted her comments there. That's what I would have done had I been disgusted at someone mishandling a dog. However, like all cyber-cowards, I guess the OP prefers the relative anonimity of hiding behind a forum and youtube.


What website, does she have one. Anonymity, Julie Briggs, and your real name is Spellweaver I take it.



> It's easy enough to be brave when you try to stir up a forum - how about being brave enough to tell the woman herself?


About as brave as slapping your dog?



> How about it, OP? Brave enough to put your money where your mouth is?


Again, grow up.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Personally I think the owner/handler should be shown the thread so they can voice their opinion  As the contact details are also public, it's easy to do.


If Spellweaver has them, she seems to know her, then invite her.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Damn, I've been sucked back into the Twilight Zone.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> About as brave as slapping your dog?
> Again, grow up.


The grown up thing would have been to have spoken to this woman directly about your concerns. 

Well, stop dodging the issue - are you brave enough to speak to her directly?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> The grown up thing would have been to have spoken to this woman directly about your concerns.
> 
> Well, stop dodging the issue - are you brave enough to speak to her directly?


Invite her to the Forum as you seem to know her contact details :sneaky2:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Since the OP says they're using their real name, and they've also reported the incident and forwarded the video to the KC, surely they aren't hiding or side stepping anything. It's not like they've come on here with a name hiding who they are, and made nasty, personal comments, then run off again. They've registered with their real name, posted a video that was freely available online to anyone to view in any case, commented about their worry the handling wasn't the nicest; if the owner of the dog comes on and comments fair enough, it's an open forum after all.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Invite her to the Forum as you seem to know her contact details :sneaky2:


They can be gotten from her site, its not hard....


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Invite her to the Forum as you seem to know her contact details :sneaky2:


I keep telling you I don't know her from adam - it's just that it saddens me that someone can villify someone in this way. It reminds me of why I hate the internet - people feel able to do things they would not do in "real" life.

Her details are easy enough to find - just google her kennel name and you'll find her website.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> If you had seen the full vid and not the OPs edited version of the vid then you would have seen this woman handling her dog in a perfectly acceptable way except for the rough hanlding incident the OP chose to edit and show.
> 
> And that is why I called her a poor woman - because someone has edited a video of her handling her dog - edited out all the bits where she handles well, shown only the bits where she handles roughly (and, as I have said from the very beginning, I am not condoning that rough handling) and _then_ tried to make them seem worse than they were by trying to make out she slapped the dog hard enough to make the dog flinch. This person has then come onto this forum with the sole intent of destroying this woman's character - and _then _, not content with that, she has posted her edited version on facebook to further try to make trouble for this woman.
> 
> ...


I did see both videos. Original and edited. The edited one was just a cut down version of the original. Still showed the rough handling of the dog.

If the woman has a website then it may be well for the OP to tackle her directly but I still see no problem in her posting a video and giving her opinion, is all I am saying.

Videos are posted on here all the time, say of idiots allowing their dog to growl at their toddler and the toddler being allowed to torment the dog...etc., sick b's putting a small furry in a box with a ferret to be callously killed. Nobody (rightly) sticks up for such people or fights for their rights to give their side of the story. Why then are we (you) affording this person extra consideration? Is it because she is in the show world, maybe? If that's the case, all the more reason for her to behave in a more caring and responsible manner.

If I know the dog world; that woman will be posting her version of events shortly, as word tends to get around

Certainly word got around quick enough for the original video to be taken down, so I dare say this woman is already aware of what is being said.

I agree wholeheartedly that the woman is not being cruel to the dog in question. The OP has stated this too. However, she is hardly doing anything for the show world, as she is not appearing to give that dog the due love and attention it should be getting. Instead, he appears to be being poked and prodded like an inanimate object. I, as a dog lover, do not enjoy seeing that sort of treatment and I expect more from exhibitors. People viewing that woman may think that poking and prodding the dog is fine, because said woman has been seen doing it, in front of the judge's nose and not reprimanded for it (in fact she apparently got placed). That is not a good message to be sending out imho.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

If someone in the street was seen handeling their dog like this would we think it was OK?

Grabbing it by the head/ear/throat treating it roughly because it wouldnt stand a particular way? 
NO 

There should be no excuse just because shes in a showring and the woman has no right to privacy because she was filmed doing what she did in public..


TBH Im not surprised the OP has done a runner ..Whatever her reasons the film is damning.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

dorrit said:


> If someone in the street was seen handeling their dog like this would we think it was OK?
> 
> Grabbing it by the head/ear/throat treating it roughly because it wouldnt stand a particular way?
> NO
> ...


The OP's still on here, but the original video on another forum has been removed. The OP isn't the dog owner/handler


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dorrit said:


> If someone in the street was seen handeling their dog like this would we think it was OK?
> 
> Grabbing it by the head/ear/throat treating it roughly because it wouldnt stand a particular way?
> NO
> ...


Excuse me I don't see may people on the thread saying it is okay... No-one is using the excuse because she is showing.. Do you think there would be the same comments if it was Joe Public walking down the street doing it, would people then say well just because they are a normal dog owner they are excused?

Point out to me in this thread where someone has said " it's perfectly acceptable behaviour because she is showing her dog."

Damning my arse really....  Drama Lama's are us...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Excuse me I don't see may people on the thread saying it is okay... No-one is using the excuse because she is showing.. Do you think there would be the same comments if it was Joe Public walking down the street doing it, would people then say well just because they are a normal dog owner they are excused?
> 
> Point out to me in this thread where someone has said " it's perfectly acceptable behaviour because she is showing her dog."
> 
> Damning my arse really....  Drama Lama's are us...


I agree - but you know what this forum is like. If any show-person dares to speak against anyone vilifying showing and show people/breeders.dogs, then we are in the wrong because we are becoming defensive. (Goblin will be on in a minute with his usual "putting the wagons in a circle" nonsense!) The show people on here have ALL expressed their abhorrence of rough handling - but because some of us are dismayed at a cyber character assassination then suddenly we are somehow condoning rough handling in showing.

Sigh.


----------



## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

I didnt say the OP was the dog owner but a lot of comments have doubted her reasons for posting the video and posting here..

As I say regardless of her reasons for posting the owners handeling was rough.

Some people seem to be more concerned about having a pop at the OP than the person whos really in the wrong...


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Since the OP says they're using their real name, and they've also reported the incident and forwarded the video to the KC, surely they aren't hiding or side stepping anything. It's not like they've come on here with a name hiding who they are, and made nasty, personal comments, then run off again. They've registered with their real name, posted a video that was freely available online to anyone to view in any case, commented about their worry the handling wasn't the nicest; if the owner of the dog comes on and comments fair enough, it's an open forum after all.


Wish I could give you another rep for your good posts SL....but it wont let me....

I have to say that the OP could never be held as making liable comments on here! all she has stated is her concern on what was PLAINLY seen by her, not once has she made any other comment other than what she felt and asked for our views, on this "poor woman"  I'm just flabbergasted that those words can be used after seeing this video ....but anyway, seems like this thread has bought all the "sleuths" and some are ones I held in high esteem ....never mind eh!, we cant agree on everything all the time ....

I saw the videos this morning and stated I felt the same as she..... 
where as some comments made to HER could well be seen just as that! LIABLE!....flipping eke! being told shes "edited vids" "sound track" etc etc....

Now I've had my little say I'm off and will let all the Colombo's fight it out


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

dorrit said:


> Some people seem to be more concerned about having a pop at the OP than the person whos really in the wrong...


And some people are not condoning rough handling but are questioning the OPs motives in all this. What with this thread and putting her edited version on youtube, it seems a little too much like cyber-bullying to me. I am uncomfortable with any kind of bullying, but cyber-bullying seems somehow more despicable because the cyber-bully would not dare to say things to people's face.

I hope the handler joins the forum and comes on to post - it will certainly be interesting to see what she has to say - and even more interesting to find out if she knows the OP or can give us any insight into her motives.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> And some people are not condoning rough handling but are questioning the OPs motives in all this. What with this thread and putting her edited version on youtube, it seems a little too much like cyber-bullying to me. I am uncomfortable with any kind of bullying, but cyber-bullying seems somehow more despicable because the cyber-bully would not dare to say things to people's face.
> 
> I hope the handler joins the forum and comes on to post - it will certainly be interesting to see what she has to say - and even more interesting to find out if she knows the OP or can give us any insight into her motives.


It appears the Original Unedited Video is back online. To repeat this is not my video. Can you point out at which point the growling is. As for bullying it's clear who the bully is in the video.

Unedited- S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> It appears the Original Unedited Video is back online. To repeat this is not my video. Can you point out at which point the growling is. As for bullying it's clear who the bully is in the video.
> 
> Unedited- S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube


I'm sorry the dog is being yanked all the time on here, even when the lady in red is moving the dog at 1.10 and 1.24 she is still yanking the poor thing around.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Even when she's not in shot she is picking the dog up by hanging it with it's collar and it's flinching at being brush


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> And some people are not condoning rough handling but are questioning the OPs motives in all this. What with this thread and putting her edited version on youtube, it seems a little too much like cyber-bullying to me. I am uncomfortable with any kind of bullying, but cyber-bullying seems somehow more despicable because the cyber-bully would not dare to say things to people's face.
> 
> I hope the handler joins the forum and comes on to post - it will certainly be interesting to see what she has to say - and even more interesting to find out if she knows the OP or can give us any insight into her motives.


Could the OPs motives be concern for a dogs welfare?

Is that a possibility?

She's made a very valid observation as far as I can see


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> I'm sorry the dog is being yanked all the time on here, even when the lady in red is moving the dog at 1.10 and 1.24 she is still yanking the poor thing around.


I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that she is to rough with the dog, I agree also, but I also will still question someones motive for posting this.. Call me cynical and all that... :001_unsure:

The handler is too rough, I'm not trying to defend that or say she's not..

The first thing my OH said when I was talking to him about it, was " strange first post on a forum, I bet the OP is involved in showing Daxxies"


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Also watch at 5.28!!!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> Could the OPs motives be concern for a dogs welfare?
> 
> Is that a possibility?
> 
> She's made a very valid observation as far as I can see


Out of 1000's upon 1000's of vid clips of Leeds and other shows the OP just stumbled on this one?

If I was concerned about a dogs welfare I would have reported is straight way, there and then when I saw the clip, I wouldn#t of joined a forum, and posted it to ask opinions....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Out of 1000's upon 1000's of vid clips of Leeds and other shows the OP just stumbled on this one?


Why not?

I've come across training videos I think are hideous when not looking for anyone specific


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Out of 1000's upon 1000's of vid clips of Leeds and other shows the OP just stumbled on this one?


For the last time I DID NOT 'Just Stumble on this one'. The Video with many others from Leeds were posted on the person who filmed them's Facebook page. This is what she does for all to see. Others share her videos with hundreds if not thousands of people to see.

This one stuck out for the very reason of the handling and what others were saying in their comments.

On another note, '1000's upon 1000's of vid clips'! Hardly this is Leeds not Crufts and she only videos the challenges. Dozens maybe, 1000's hardly.

How hard is this to grasp.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> No. Granted, it is rough, but not to the point where the dog is in distress... therefore I don't think she has crossed any lines. Handling could be better definitely, but I don't see any signs that the dog is in any way distressed which is why it doesn't really concern me.


I think that says more about the dog and how he is used to rough handling than anything about the treatment of him. Some dogs can be kicked and barely flinch, if someone tried to handle Kes as that woman did they would probably be mouthed by her and it would not get desired results. The dog in that video just seems to be used to putting up with whatever this woman does to him. I personally do not like 'showing collars' or whatever you call them, stringing dogs up because they don't train them to hold their heads in the air.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> For the last time I DID NOT 'Just Stumble on this one'. The Video with many others from Leeds were posted on the person who filmed them's Facebook page. This is what she does for all to see. Others share her videos for hundreds if not thousands of people to see.
> 
> This one stuck out for the very reason of the handling and what others were saying in their comments.
> 
> How hard is this to grasp.


I just find it hard to grasp why you would join a forum to post.. Why not comment on the video itself, why not contact the KC straight away?

I'm really not commenting any more on this, agree the handling is appalling and very rough, and I don't agree with it.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> It appears the Original Unedited Video is back online. To repeat this is not my video. Can you point out at which point the growling is. As for bullying it's clear who the bully is in the video.
> 
> Unedited- S/L Dachshund Dog Challenge - Leeds CH 13 - YouTube


At 3.64 - the dog turns its face slightly to one side, looks at the judge out of the corner of his eye and gives a little growl; the handler taps him and the judge soothes the side of his face with his finger - I can't tell if he actually does curl his lip a little or the judge's finger pushes it up a little.

So OP, now the full video can be seen, how about pointing out that from 0.34 to 0.54 we see a very happy little dog trotting around the ring being handled well? And the same from 2.06 to 2.30. And the same from 4.35 to 5.15. And that in all the background shots from 05.24 onwards, the handler is handling the dog sympathetically, soothing him, combing him et. Why did you see fit to edit that from your version? Was it because it just might have shown that what the handler did was a one-off? Regrettable, unnnecessary, and I'm not condoning that any dog be handled roughly, but a one-off nevertheless - and if it was a one-off your attack on this handler wuold not have been justified?

One thing I was worried about now seems to be unfounded - I thought the dog should have been supported around his bottom when the handler lifted him up onto the table, but at 3.02 and at 05.24 other handlers lift their dogs in exactly the same way, and placed their front paws in exactly the same way - in fact, except for the taps snd the fact that the handler you are villifying was a bit rougher, all the handlers were pretty much consistent in placing on the table, and there was no difference at all un movement and care during the rest of the video.

Given all that, do you really wonder why some of us are questioning your motives?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I just find it hard to grasp why you would join a forum to post.. Why not comment on the video itself, why not contact the KC straight away?
> 
> I'm really not commenting any more on this, agree the handling is appalling and very rough, and I don't agree with it.


I did comment on the video on Youtube, it was removed.

I sent an email to KC when I had all the names to hand.

My joining I have explained, and I intend to stay. Great Forum.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I just find it hard to grasp why you would join a forum to post.. Why not comment on the video itself, why not contact the KC straight away?
> 
> I'm really not commenting any more on this, agree the handling is appalling and very rough, and I don't agree with it.


Maybe the op has seen this person treat dogs like this before and wanted others opinions, a thing we all come to the forums for, I came because I wanted opinions on my dogs illness, she maybe wanted opinions on what she has seen now or before.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> At 3.64 - the dog turns its face slightly to one side, looks at the judge out of the corner of his eye and gives a little growl; the handler taps him and the judge soothes the side of his face with his finger - I can't tell if he actually does curl his lip a little or the judge's finger pushes it up a little.
> 
> So OP, now the full video can be seen, how about pointing out that from 0.34 to 0.54 we see a very happy little dog trotting around the ring being handled well? And the same from 2.06 to 2.30. And the same from 4.35 to 5.15. And that in all the background shots from 05.24 onwards, the handler is handling the dog sympathetically, soothing him, combing him et. Why did you see fit to edit that from your version? Was it because it just might have shown that what the handler did was a one-off? Regrettable, unnnecessary, and I'm not condoning that any dog be handled roughly, but a one-off nevertheless - and if it was a one-off your attack on this handler wuold not have been justified?
> 
> ...


'There's none so blind as those who will not see.'

No growl, but at 1.23 she yanks it clear off the ground with choker chain.

Or how about 5.29 where she grabs it round the muzzle and shakes it.

You have pointed out around 60 seconds worth of ok handling out of a video 6 minutes long. Way to go. I can pick bits ad infinitum but what's the point, you either know this handler or worse you are totally blind to what is in front of you.

You are in a majority of one and are making yourself look pretty silly.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I hasten to add that all of this choking and pulling and snatching at its face so it looks up is done purely for her hobby and for no benefit to the dog.

This isn't against showing as I have nothing against it and quite enjoy looking at the shows and results and seeing them at their best, but all of this quite frankly abuse towards this little dog is done for her enjoyment. 

It really is uncomfortable viewing, but I doubt the KC will do anything at all.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Maybe the op has seen this person treat dogs like this before and wanted others opinions, a thing we all come to the forums for, I came because I wanted opinions on my dogs illness, she maybe wanted opinions on what she has seen now or before.


I haven't seen her before, or not that I can remember anyway, but the thing is this is such a stand out incident it did get me angry.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> I haven't seen her before, or not that I can remember anyway, but the thing is this is such a stand out incident it did get me angry.


It doesn't matter why, if you wanted the opinions of others then joining here is fine. I agree it really stands out how she is handling the dog.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Maybe the op has seen this person treat dogs like this before and wanted others opinions, a thing we all come to the forums for, I came because I wanted opinions on my dogs illness, she maybe wanted opinions on what she has seen now or before.


I wouldn't even of let it go the first time if I felt that strongly about it, why if you think a dog is mistreated would you need to seek peoples opinions, if you think it's wrong then it's wrong? If you are a regular to shows, you KNOW how easy it is to find out judges, results, owners, handlers etc, it's not detective work or snooping I look at Higham Press and Fosse Data every show to see who is placed in the Rottweilers and I don't show, I also have two people on FB who do nothing but post pictures and films from every show I'd struggle to watch them all..

Maybe I am just too cynical who knows but my gut is telling me something is off here..It just doesn't sit right with me, I might be totally wrong and if I am I'll be the first to apologise...


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I wouldn't even of let it go the first time if I felt that strongly about it, why if you think a dog is mistreated would you need to seek peoples opinions, if you think it's wrong then it's wrong? If you are a regular to shows, you KNOW how easy it is to find out judges, results, owners, handlers etc, it's not detective work or snooping I look at Higham Press and Fosse Data every show to see who is placed in the Rottweilers and I don't show, I also have two people on FB who do nothing but post pictures and films from every show I'd struggle to watch them all..
> 
> Maybe I am just too cynical who knows but my gut is telling me something is off here..It just doesn't sit right with me, I might be totally wrong and if I am I'll be the first to apologise...


For the upteenth time, I wasn't at the show.

I didn't post on here to find out who what or where just opinions of others on a Pet (Dog Forum) or maybe I should have posted on a fishing or basket weaving forum.

This show was last weekend and the Facebook links to around 8 or so videos from it. Not 1000's to look through.

and yes you are wrong, but now the original video is there for all to see this really is my last post on this thread. Pictures, or video in this case, really do speak a thousand words.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I wouldn't even of let it go the first time if I felt that strongly about it, why if you think a dog is mistreated would you need to seek peoples opinions, if you think it's wrong then it's wrong? If you are a regular to shows, you KNOW how easy it is to find out judges, results, owners, handlers etc, it's not detective work or snooping I look at Higham Press and Fosse Data every show to see who is placed in the Rottweilers and I don't show, I also have two people on FB who do nothing but post pictures and films from every show I'd struggle to watch them all..
> 
> Maybe I am just too cynical who knows but my gut is telling me something is off here..It just doesn't sit right with me, I might be totally wrong and if I am I'll be the first to apologise...


I don't get it though, if you see something wrong surely you are allowed to post about it with dog lovers.

Even if the OP is a fellow competitor, which I am not saying you are OP, I don't see what it matters as others bring videos here asking about the trainers methods etc.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> At 3.64 - the dog turns its face slightly to one side, looks at the judge out of the corner of his eye and gives a little growl; the handler taps him and the judge soothes the side of his face with his finger - I can't tell if he actually does curl his lip a little or the judge's finger pushes it up a little.
> 
> So OP, now the full video can be seen, how about pointing out that from 0.34 to 0.54 we see a very happy little dog trotting around the ring being handled well? And the same from 2.06 to 2.30. And the same from 4.35 to 5.15. And that in all the background shots from 05.24 onwards, the handler is handling the dog sympathetically, soothing him, combing him et. Why did you see fit to edit that from your version? Was it because it just might have shown that what the handler did was a one-off? Regrettable, unnnecessary, and I'm not condoning that any dog be handled roughly, but a one-off nevertheless - and if it was a one-off your attack on this handler wuold not have been justified?
> 
> ...





Meezey said:


> I wouldn't even of let it go the first time if I felt that strongly about it, why if you think a dog is mistreated would you need to seek peoples opinions, if you think it's wrong then it's wrong? If you are a regular to shows, you KNOW how easy it is to find out judges, results, owners, handlers etc, it's not detective work or snooping I look at Higham Press and Fosse Data every show to see who is placed in the Rottweilers and I don't show, I also have two people on FB who do nothing but post pictures and films from every show I'd struggle to watch them all..
> 
> Maybe I am just too cynical who knows but my gut is telling me something is off here..It just doesn't sit right with me, I might be totally wrong and if I am I'll be the first to apologise...


Course, it would much better kept within the confines of the show world, it can then be glossed over/covered up/ignored like so much else................

(That's not just picking on the show world as this happens in all competitive events both animal and human)


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> I don't get it though, if you see something wrong surely you are allowed to post about it with dog lovers.
> 
> Even if the OP is a fellow competitor, which I am not saying you are OP, I don't see what it matters as others bring videos here asking about the trainers methods etc.


I would report it when I watch the video, I would ask the questions on FB where I watched the video.. I personally wouldn't watch what *I* thought was mistreatment of a dog, edit the clip, then join a forum, wait for my membership to be approved, wait for my post to be approved THEN report it....

Like I said maybe it's me being cynical.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> For the upteenth time, I wasn't at the show.
> 
> I didn't post on here to find out who what or where just opinions of others on a Pet (Dog Forum) or maybe I should have posted on a fishing or basket weaving forum.
> 
> ...


Never said you were at the show..........


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> You are in a majority of one and are making yourself look pretty silly.


Heh heh - add it up again. Either your maths are terrible or you haven't taken notice of posts from others 

And even if I _was _the *ONLY* person sticking up for someone I thought was being cyber-bullied, you know what? I would *STILL* be in there sticking up for them and the likes of you will *NEVER* change that. I cannot stand to see anyone treated unfairly.

As for me looking silly - :lol: I'm not the one cyber-bullying someone because of a bit of rough handling that lasted milliseconds compared to the 6 minute video. Once you've improved your maths a bit, add up the total time of her good handling and her rough handling and you will find out the former is much greater. Look at the dog and see how happy and relaxed it is. But hey, posting about the good aspects of her handling being more prolific than the bad, and posting about how relaxed her dog looked, would both have ruined your tirade against her, wouldn't it?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

There is nothing defensible about the handler's behavior - JMO. But sadly, there is also nothing unusual about the handler's behavior. What is unusual, to me, is that she did it right in front of the judge, and that the judge didn't appear to comment or react to it. (He might have later, IDK...)

The right thing to do is forward the original video to the appropriate people in the Dachshund breed club, and/or deal with the handler directly. That, IMO serves the dog best.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I find it in really bad taste to take an unlisted video, copy it without the uploader's permission, and edit it, again without permission, then post it on a public forum. I find that sneaky and underhanded. 
The gun dog trainer video was shared with his full knowledge, and he was able to participate in the discussion (and show his lovely true colors too ).

If you want to help the dog, be up-front, genuine, and proactive. Go to the source. 
If you want opinions on how show dogs are handled, post a thread asking that. I personally think the breed ring is one of the harsher places for a dog to land and I would like to see things change. But you don't create change like this, you just create divisiveness and defensiveness. Even on this thread the claws have come out. The whole thing stinks


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

juliebriggs said:


> I sent an email to KC when I had all the names to hand.


Have you also contacted the organisers of the show and the Daschund Club to express your concerns? I would imagine they would have more weight in this kind of situation than the KC itself.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to have a good debate on a forum about something like rough handling of show dogs, or whatever other subject someone fancies, but there's a real danger for threads focusing on the actions of a single person (who can be very easily identified) over a very brief period of time to turn into witch hunts.

I absolutely agree that the handling was overly rough but I think it would have been far more appropriate to contact the powers that be to complain then join to start a general discussion on the subject rather than a thread judging a few actions of one person.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> Course, it would much better kept within the confines of the show world, it can then be glossed over/covered up/ignored like so much else................
> 
> (That's not just picking on the show world as this happens in all competitive events both animal and human)


I am not saying that where have I said that??????????????? I don't think it should be glossed over/covered up/ignored?? I don't show? I also don't agree with normal pet owner hitting or kicking their dogs, difference is I'd tell them, there and then, not go off and join a forum and post about it there..........


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> Course, it would much better kept within the confines of the show world, it can then be glossed over/covered up/ignored like so much else................
> 
> (That's not just picking on the show world as this happens in all competitive events both animal and human)


Who is wanting it kept within the show world? Who is wanting it glossed over or covered up? Can you point out to me where you think someone has done that? It seems to me that the show people on here have all spoken out against rough handling so I don't really see where you are coming from with this one. In fact on one post on here I said that I had actually reported a DDB that WAS being handled badly and went for one of my dogs in the ring - but that was done in the correct way, not by starting a capaign against them on a forum and on youtube.

btw, picking on the show world and then saying you're not picking on the show world because you know these sorts of things happen elsewhere as well doesn't work Rona - you are still picking on the show world, just not the show world in particular


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Heh heh - add it up again. Either your maths are terrible or you haven't taken notice of posts from others
> 
> And even if I _was _the *ONLY* person sticking up for someone I thought was being cyber-bullied, you know what? I would *STILL* be in there sticking up for them and the likes of you will *NEVER* change that. I cannot stand to see anyone treated unfairly.
> 
> As for me looking silly - :lol: I'm not the one cyber-bullying someone because of a bit of rough handling that lasted milliseconds compared to the 6 minute video. Once you've improved your maths a bit, add up the total time of her good handling and her rough handling and you will find out the former is much greater. Look at the dog and see how happy and relaxed it is. But hey, posting about the good aspects of her handling being more prolific than the bad, and posting about how relaxed her dog looked, would both have ruined your tirade against her, wouldn't it?


What about dogs being bullied....do you not feel the need to stand up for their rights?

Nobody is going to string that woman up with a show lead by the neck and prod and poke her...yet you feel the need to stick your neck out to protect her feelings...even though she has done these things to her beautiful dog...the fact that it was done in a public place...under the judges nose is just unbelievable!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> So OP, now the full video can be seen, how about pointing out that from 0.34 to 0.54 we see a very happy little dog trotting around the ring being handled well? And the same from 2.06 to 2.30. And the same from 4.35 to 5.15. And that in all the background shots from 05.24 onwards, the handler is handling the dog sympathetically, soothing him, combing him et. *Why did you see fit to edit that from your version? *


Maybe because thats how we expect ALL handlers to be at ALL times, and the edited version (or should I say shorter version as nothing was edited, what we see is what happened)! was shortened just to highlight the bits that was unacceptable. I am struggling to see how some people are not getting this?
A one of or not this handler let her dog down, I understand the pressure you are under in the challenge my stomach flips everytime, you never get use to it. These are the best dogs from the show going against each other for top titles, this handling would have been poor in any class, but is even worse in the challenge. There are no excuses, regardless of the whys this behaviour happened.

People expect to much from dogs, and it saddens me. To many claim pets before anything else, but treating them as such for a rosette often gets me questioning their motives!  I would rather my dog acted a clown and didnt get placed, than yank, pull and prod them around to get them to move, and stand as I want.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

chichi said:


> What about dogs being bullied....do you not feel the need to stand up for their rights?
> 
> Nobody is going to string that woman up with a show lead by the neck and prod and poke her...yet you feel the need to stick your neck out to protect her feelings...even though she has done these things to her beautiful dog...the fact that it was done in a public place...under the judges nose is just unbelievable!


No I haven't stuck out my neck to protect her from her rough handling. I have said in post after post that I neither agree with it nor condone it. (Pity you don't seem to have read any of them!)

The handler did some rough hanlding but she also did some good handling, and she did more good than bad, That does not condone the bad. It just puts it into perpsective.

As for dogs being bullied - you yourself have stated quite catergorically on here that you don't believe any cruelty was involved:



chichi said:


> I agree wholeheartedly that the woman is not being cruel to the dog in question.


Changing your mind now to keep "in" with the majority are you?


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> The handler did some rough hanlding but she also did some good handling, and she did more good than bad, That does not condone the bad. It just puts it into *perpsective.
> *


How?


----------



## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

rona said:


> Course, it would much better kept within the confines of the show world, it can then be glossed over/covered up/ignored like so much else................


No, it wouldn't be better. ALL venues need to own up to their failings and work to improve them for the sake of the dogs we all cherish. We all have room to improve.
I just don't like the disingenuous way this particular video was brought to light.

As you'll recall, the gundog trainer thread was a video he himself had posted and put up as an example of good training. The video was shared with is full knowledge, and he was perfectly able to participate in the discussion (which he did). And more importantly, he personally got to hear the objections and hear alternatives.

I do find your position on this thread versus your behavior on the gun dog video thread a really glaring contrast though.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree with you about the picking up - and have said so from the start. I think it's impossible to be judgemental about the growl without being there and seeing what happened - on the video it did not seen very loud and there was no accompanying curl of a lip or any other signs of aggression. He showed quite happily after that. And remember, this was a junior dog and may still be unused to the show scene. I don't know when dachsunds were in the ring the Leeds, but he may have been at the show a long time and had already won his class, so maybe it was just that he was getting fed up. It's impossible to tell without being there.
> 
> I would be the first to say that any dog showing agression should be taken straight out of the ring, without even waiting for the judge or the steward to ask the handler to leave - *but from what I could see on the vid I don't think this was agression *- but as I said, impossible to be sure unless you were there.
> 
> I would also report an aggressive dog if the judge did not order it out of the ring - and actually did so when a DDB went for Gabby at Driffield once.


I'm confused. When is a growl NOT a warning or threat exactly? Is there something about growls that I'm no aware of?


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> How?


She did indeed do some rough handling - but she did more "not rough" (for want of a better word) handling. If she had been rough with the dog all way through the video then the OP's crusade against her might have been justified. As it is, showing the bits the OP edited out has produced a different picture.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> She did indeed do some rough handling - but she did more "not rough" (for want of a better word) handling. If she had been rough with the dog all way through the video then the OP's crusade against her might have been justified. As it is, showing the bits the OP edited out has produced a different picture.


That argument doesn't hold water and you know it :hand:

If I cuddled my dog for 23hours 59 minutes a day and then hit him for 1 minute, the former doesn't make the minute ok


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> She did indeed do some rough handling - but she did more "not rough" (for want of a better word) handling. If she had been rough with the dog all way through the video then the OP's crusade against her might have been justified. As it is, showing the bits the OP edited out has produced a different picture.


Handling rough is handling rough, regardless of how long  
It matters not that she handled well for X amount of minutes, if she couldnt continue that throughout the whole time within the ring! People that care about a dogs wellbeing wont care how well she handled to start with if she lowers her standard and becomes rough.
Her starting off well doesnt make up for how it ends, its just not justified.

Thats like saying - oh that breeder is ok, she breeds well most of the time but this litter has been bred with less standards.
Or that trainer usually uses positive training, so it matters not that this time they have used slightly less positive methods.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> I'm confused. When is a growl NOT a warning or threat exactly? Is there something about growls that I'm no aware of?


Where have I said that it wasn't a warning or a threat? 

I said I couldn't see signs of aggression, which is different. Dogs can warn and threaten without being aggressive. Warning and threatening are part of a dog's basic comminication. Warns and threats do not becoime aggression unless they are excessive or umprovoked or carried through.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> She did indeed do some rough handling - but she did more "not rough" (for want of a better word) handling. If she had been rough with the dog all way through the video then the OP's crusade against her might have been justified. As it is, showing the bits the OP edited out has produced a different picture.


But she also edited out some of the rough handling going on too, the ones I noted earlier when she grabs his head roughly and another time when the lasy in red is circling the ring.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Handling rough is handling rough, regardless of how long
> It matters not that she handled well for X amount of minutes, if she couldnt continue that throughout the whole time within the ring! People that care about a dogs wellbeing wont care how well she handled to start with if she lowers her standard and becomes rough.
> Her starting off well doesnt make up for how it ends, its just not justified.
> 
> ...


DD , it's not like that at all. All I am saying that everyone can have an abberation. It is neither desirable nor forgiveable, but it *is* understandable and it *is* different from someone who habitually handles roughly.

As for the actual minutes, that was in a specific reply to the OP who thought it was clever to point out the small amount of minutes that she was handling perfectly. I was merely pointing out to her the flaw in her argument as the rough handling was in a minority.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

This is just one clip of her handling at one show and the likelihood is that if she has acted as such here more than once, then she is capable of doing so on other occasions, I dont know of her so dont know if it is or isnt something that she does often, I hope it isnt but then if I had known her she would have lost my respect after just the first occasion.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> DD , it's not like that at all. All I am saying that everyone can have an abberation. It is neither desirable nor forgiveable, but it *is* understandable and it *is* different from someone who habitually handles roughly.
> 
> As for the actual minutes, that was in a specific reply to the OP who thought it was clever to point out the small amount of minutes that she was handling perfectly. I was merely pointing out to her the flaw in her argument as the rough handling was in a minority.


But by the way she does it often to this dog and the dog doesn't flinch, I am taking a guess that this is her way of showing and she does do it habitually instead of a one off.

Or maybe because this one is young she does it to the young ones and not the old ones as they have learnt they will be handled as such if they misbehave and don't stand with their neck ups for HER rosette!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> That argument doesn't hold water and you know it :hand:
> 
> If I cuddled my dog for 23hours 59 minutes a day and then hit him for 1 minute, the former doesn't make the minute ok


No, but if I cuddled him for 23hrs and 59 minutes and then tapped him because I thought he was going to bite the person in front of him, it wouldn't make it ok but it *would* make it understandable. And it *would* make it *vastly* different to me hitting him 24 hours a day.

And that's my point about the vid - there is a difference between someone losing it under pressure for a split second and someone habitually harming their dog in the ring. And the handler in the vid falls into the former category, not the latter, no matter how pernicious the attack by the OP.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> But by the way she does it often to this dog and the dog doesn't flinch, I am taking a guess that this is her way of showing and she does do it habitually instead of a one off.
> 
> Or maybe because this one is young she does it to the young ones and not the old ones as they have learnt they will be handled as such if they misbehave and don't stand with their neck ups for HER rosette!


You are surmising now why she did it :hand:

No one can know why she feels the need to do something like that, just that she did it


----------



## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Sorry I know Tigerneko always does it and it makes me laugh! :lol:

Basically - all I can see is people going round and round in circles.

Yes the handler was rougher than she probably needed to be with the dog. 
No - no one is condoning it. 
Yes the judge should've pulled her up on it - maybe he did. 
And I didn't hear the dog growl, nor see any indication of it doing so.

But my first post or one of my posts suggested that this could perhaps be a witch hunt. There are plenty of show videos out there and from what I have seen - worse handling than this.

Thems the outlines for those joining in late.. Welcome to the wheel of never ending-ness.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> This is just one clip of her handling at one show and *the likelihood is that if she has acted as such here more than once, then she is capable of doing so on other occasions, I dont know of her so dont know if it is or isnt something that she does often,* I hope it isnt but then if I had known her she would have lost my respect after just the first occasion.





emmaviolet said:


> But by the way she does it often to this dog and the dog doesn't flinch, *I am taking a guess that this is her way of showing and she does do it habitually instead of a one off.*
> 
> *Or maybe because this one is young she does it to the young ones and not the old ones as they have learnt they will be handled as such if they misbehave and don't stand with their neck ups for HER rosette*!


It is these kind of remarks, about a person you know nothing about, that really make me angry and that really make me want to stick up for her.

If you knew her and were speaking with authority, I would be right up there beside you agreeing with you.

But you don't know her - and yet you feel it is ok to assassinate her character in this way.

That is very sad.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> No, but if I cuddled him for 23hrs and 59 minutes and then tapped him because I thought he was going to bite the person in front of him, it wouldn't make it ok but it *would* make it understandable. And it *would* make it *vastly* different to me hitting him 24 hours a day.
> 
> And that's my point about the vid - there is a difference between someone losing it under pressure for a split second and someone habitually harming their dog in the ring. And the handler in the vid falls into the former category, not the latter, no matter how pernicious the attack by the OP.


But she strung the dog up while another was showing off theirs 

Sorry, I don't care why this was highlighted, with any luck this handler will see what is being said and no other dog will be treated like that.
If it acts as a warning to others too, then so much the good


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I haven't read through all the comments (all 20 pages or so!) but here's my 2 cents.

For me that was uncomfortable viewing. I don't like to see a dog being handled like that; it's not fun for the dog, not fun for the owner, not fun for the audience. 

I have yanked on a lead out of frustration before. I don't think I have in the show ring (Someone might produce a video to prove me wrong however!) but I have a few times out of frustration in the park or on the street. Is it productive? Is it acceptable? Does it get results? Does it build a bond between the dog and handler? I think the obvious answer to the above is a resounding NO. But I have still done it, and the only thing it has accomplished is making me and my dog feel like crap. When I am training or doing something with my dogs and I feel myself betting frustrated, I try to stop what I am doing and do something else. Maybe she should take a break from showing, and try to remember her reasons for starting in the first place.

Not making excuses for the woman in the video, but I don't feel she is an animal abuser, I think she is misguided, frustrated, probably nervous and acting out of those feelings. I think she needs some ring craft lessons.

I personally have seen much worse handling of dogs in the park, in agility trials, working trials, sheepdogs ect, however to me the fact that one persons handling is worse, does not make this right. Showing gets enough bad press as it is, without this kind of handling adding fuel to the fire.

I think rather than posting a video for the world to see, it would have been much more productive to pay your money and complain to the KC and/or the RSPCA if you felt necessary. I don't feel it is acceptable to take a video of someone like this and distribute where their opinions cannot be voiced.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Oh dear, a battered sausage.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> No, but if I cuddled him for 23hrs and 59 minutes and then tapped him because I thought he was going to bite the person in front of him, it wouldn't make it ok but it *would* make it understandable. And it *would* make it *vastly* different to me hitting him 24 hours a day.
> 
> And that's my point about the vid - there is a difference between someone losing it under pressure for a split second and someone habitually harming their dog in the ring. And the handler in the vid falls into the former category, not the latter, no matter how pernicious the attack by the OP.


Wait a minute...in response to my comment about growls being aggressive and threatening you said 'I said I couldn't see signs of aggression, which is different.' but in this comment you say ' I thought he was going to bite the person in front of him'. If you thought he would bite someone...isn't that aggressive?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> It is these kind of remarks, about a person you know nothing about, that really make me angry and that really make me want to stick up for her.
> 
> If you knew her and were speaking with authority, I would be right up there beside you agreeing with you.
> 
> ...


It makes me angry that someone gets away with treating a dog like a piece of crap on the end of a lead.

I said nothing other than if she did it on this occassion she is more than capable of dog it again, neither did I say she does/would - doesnt/wouldnt. Just stated its possible she could...I see nothing wrong with that, same goes for anyone. I havent assumed, or accused.

Assassinate her character? Come on SW.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> It is these kind of remarks, about a person you know nothing about, that really make me angry and that really make me want to stick up for her.
> 
> If you knew her and were speaking with authority, I would be right up there beside you agreeing with you.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I had to reply to this.

So are you saying you do know her and are defending her character or are you defending a person you know nothing about and want to stick up for her.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> It is these kind of remarks, about a person you know nothing about, that really make me angry and that really make me want to stick up for her.
> 
> If you knew her and were speaking with authority, I would be right up there beside you agreeing with you.
> 
> ...


Ok but she is doing it often to that dog, in a six minute video she handles it like that at the beginning four times, hits it with one hand then two and then grabs its head and places it looking up in a VERY rough way. This is habitually handling a dog like that, it's not an assumption, it is fact she is doing it often to that dog.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> No I haven't stuck out my neck to protect her from her rough handling. I have said in post after post that I neither agree with it nor condone it. (Pity you don't seem to have read any of them!)
> 
> The handler did some rough hanlding but she also did some good handling, and she did more good than bad, That does not condone the bad. It just puts it into perpsective.
> 
> ...


Seriously SW you shock me...if you knew one thing about me its that I dont kiss @rse...not in RL or on forums.

You however seem to want to stick up for this woman who is a complete stranger to you apparently...regardless of how she treats a poor defenceless dog.

Ive read your posts well enough to know that you are not going to budge on this and you can insult all you like but that woman is bullying the dog. I dont regard it as cruelty as such but I do think its way off of what is expected of a so called animal lover.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Phoolf said:


> Wait a minute...in response to my comment about growls being aggressive and threatening you said 'I said I couldn't see signs of aggression, which is different.' but in this comment you say ' I thought he was going to bite the person in front of him'. If you thought he would bite someone...isn't that aggressive?


Well, first of all the second comment was about a different scanario - but no - thinking a dog might bite someone is not a sign that the dog is showing aggression. It means that you have heard a *warning* growl and were taking action before any *aggression* occurs - which is what I think may have happened in the vid.

The dog may or not be aggressive - I don't know the animal so have no idea - but it certainly does not appear aggressive in any of the vid. Giving a warning growl does not show aggerssion, and neither does the handler correcting the dog so that he does not feel the need to give a warning growl to a judge mean the handler thinks the dog is aggressive


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Firedog said:


> Oh dear, a battered sausage.


I know I shouldn't but I laughed


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Dober said:


> I haven't read through all the comments (all 20 pages or so!) but here's my 2 cents.
> 
> For me that was uncomfortable viewing. I don't like to see a dog being handled like that; it's not fun for the dog, not fun for the owner, not fun for the audience.
> 
> ...


I did not film this. I posted a link to a shortened version and to the long version. The long version link was posted and shared on Facebook as part of around 8 videos of last weeks Leeds Show. Facebook is a public forum. The handler knew she was being filmed and by someone who posts on Facebook and yet she didn't give a hoot and carried on regardless.


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## Pet Services Kent (Dec 3, 2010)

Wow! This has gone crazy in the few hours since I last posted! Having now seen the whole video and watched with the sound on, I'm still not keen on the handling, but it wasn't a hard smack! I'm also still confused about the way they are ALL lifting their dachys? Is there a dachy person who can enlighten me? My clients would kill me if I lifted their 2 like this!!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Well, first of all the second comment was about a different scanario - but no - thinking a dog might bite someone is not a sign that the dog is showing aggression. It means that you have heard a *warning* growl and were taking action before any *aggression* occurs - which is what I think may have happened in the vid.
> 
> The dog may or not be aggressive - I don't know the animal so have no idea - but it certainly does not appear aggressive in any of the vid. Giving a warning growl does not show aggerssion, and neither does the handler correcting the dog so that he does not feel the need to give a warning growl to a judge mean the handler thinks the dog is aggressive


What growl.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> I did not film this. I posted a link to a shortened version and to the long version. The long version link was posted and shared on Facebook as part of around 8 videos of last weeks Leeds Show. Facebook is a public forum. The handler knew she was being filmed and by someone who posts on Facebook and yet she didn't give a hoot and carried on regardless.


Was the video originally posted on FB as bad handling or was it you or someone else that picked up on that?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

rona said:


> Was the video originally posted on FB as bad handling or was it you or someone else that picked up on that?


It was posted as coverage of the show not an example of bad handling. The bad handling was picked up by viewers.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> - but it certainly does not appear aggressive in any of the vid.


we all know that however we all also know the aggressive one in the video  

Anyways I am bailing now - us that show should expect better and be the ones to show the good handling, not defend those that show poor sportsmanship. Its bad handling regardless of why, end of!

:Yawn:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

rona said:


> I know I shouldn't but I laughed


Me too....bad Chichi


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

chichi said:


> Seriously SW you shock me...if you knew one thing about me its that I dont kiss @rse...not in RL or on forums.
> 
> You however seem to want to stick up for this woman who is a complete stranger to you apparently...regardless of how she treats a poor defenceless dog.
> 
> Ive read your posts well enough to know that you are not going to budge on this and you can insult all you like but that woman is bullying the dog. I dont regard it as cruelty as such but I do think its way off of what is expected of a so called animal lover.


I've been shocked - and lost respect for - quite a few people on this thread. It's a long time on this forum since people have ganged up, fawned around and tried to lick the @rse of a bully - guess I forgot just how much like a school playground this place can be. Attacking someone's character when they know nothing at all about her - it's inexcusable and to be honest I don't know why the mods have let it carry on as long as it has done.

There is a difference between cruelty and rough handling. I do not condone rough handling. I would move heaven and earth of I thought an animal was being abused. This dog isn't.

And if you know anything at all about me, you will know that I stick up for the underdog - that is what I am doing here.

The woman handled roughly and that was bad. But she does not deserve the kind of things people have been surmising about her, making up about her and posting about her on here. That is sad. That is dreadful. And that is why I have been sticking up for her.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> It was posted as coverage of the show not an example of bad handling. The bad handling was picked up by viewers.


The bad handling was picked up by one person and escalated into a full-blown poersonal attack on the handler on this forum only.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> The bad handling was picked up by one person and escalated into a full-blown poersonal attack on the handler on this forum only.


Delusional and very slightly worrying.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> The bad handling was picked up by one person and escalated into a full-blown poersonal attack on the handler on this forum only.


I havent seen a personal attack, I havent seen anyone class the lady as being cruel, nor do I see anywhere that members have slated, tarnished or anything else this ladies name.
Her handling skills have alot to be desired, that is all. Its not acceptable.

Its a shame you have lost respect for members that is your choice, however I have seen no ass licking.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> I've been shocked - and lost respect for - quite a few people on this thread. It's a long time on this forum since people have ganged up, fawned around and tried to lick the @rse of a bully - guess I forgot just how much like a school playground this place can be. Attacking someone's character when they know nothing at all about her - it's inexcusable and to be honest I don't know why the mods have let it carry on as long as it has done.
> 
> There is a difference between cruelty and rough handling. I do not condone rough handling. I would move heaven and earth of I thought an animal was being abused. This dog isn't.
> 
> ...


I never mentioned cruelty, just unacceptable level of force and bad handling.

Hitler was the underdog at some stage.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> I've been shocked - and lost respect for - quite a few people on this thread. It's a long time on this forum since people have ganged up, fawned around and tried to lick the @rse of a bully - guess I forgot just how much like a school playground this place can be. Attacking someone's character when they know nothing at all about her - it's inexcusable and to be honest I don't know why the mods have let it carry on as long as it has done.
> 
> There is a difference between cruelty and rough handling. I do not condone rough handling. I would move heaven and earth of I thought an animal was being abused. This dog isn't.
> 
> ...


Seriously SW "lick the @rse of a bully" why on earth would anybidy want to do that for a newbie who is a stranger to all of us on here.

We posted what we felt after viewing the vids.

I will stick up for the underdog too...thats why Im sticking up for the dog...for he is the only one being bullied by anyone as far as I can see.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> I know I shouldn't but I laughed


It was put in hopefully too stop the arguments that were starting up but it didn't work.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Hitler was the underdog at some stage.


And there it is...
Goodwin's law.

Cue end thread LOL


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Firedog said:


> It was put in hopefully too stop the arguments that were starting up but it didn't work.


10 out of 10 for effort FD x


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> Delusional and very slightly worrying.


;lol: Oh dearie me - If I was going to have delusions they would be much better delusions that a jumped up troll on a pet forum! :lol:

OK then - prove me wrong.  Where else has anyone commented on the handling other than on here? Certainly not on youtube, not even on your lasty little edited version - or have you continued your campaign against this handler onto other forums as well?


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> And there it is...
> Goodwin's law.
> 
> Cue end thread LOL


Notice the 

That means tongue in cheek, a bit of farce. Which is what this has descended in to.

Oh and it's Godwin's law, not Goodwin's.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Delusional and very slightly worrying.


I really think you might want to wind your neck in a bit. You seem to be very quick about making judgement and commenting on people you know nothing about? What give you the right??


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> ;lol: Oh dearie me - If I was going to have delusions they would be much better delusions that a jumped up troll on a pet forum! :lol:
> 
> OK then - prove me wrong.  Where else has anyone commented on the handling other than on here? Certainly not on youtube, not even on your lasty little edited version - or have you continued your campaign against this handler onto other forums as well?


On the video makers Facebook page. Comments on the YouTube video have been deleted.

Next.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Notice the
> 
> That means tongue in cheek, a bit of farce. Which is what this has descended in to.


You don't know what Goodwin's Law is do you?


----------



## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Meezey said:


> I really think you might want to wind your neck in a bit. You seem to be very quick about making judgement and commenting on people you know nothing about? What give you the right??


Wow, pot, kettle, black.

Next.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Would be rude not to do this..


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Wow, pot, kettle, black.
> 
> Next.


I doubted your actions and motivation and still do.....


----------



## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> You don't know what Goodwin's Law is do you?


Ha, ha. You mean Godwin's law.

Look up Straw man


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

chichi said:


> 10 out of 10 for effort FD x


Must try harder next time.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

juliebriggs said:


> I never mentioned cruelty, just unacceptable level of force and bad handling.
> 
> Hitler was the underdog at some stage.


Not doing yourself any favours here if you are going to stick around.


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## Pet Services Kent (Dec 3, 2010)

Pretty sure the OP is now on a wind up. Amazed admin haven't shut this one down yet! Can I suggest that the normally sane and rational people who have been sucked into this one simply hit ignore and bow out? 

Just a thought!!


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

rona said:


> Not doing yourself any favours here if you are going to stick around.


You're absolutely right Rona, misjudged and flippant borne out of frustration. I just cannot see how the rough handling is second place to someone's perceived reputation.

Very strange.

Night all.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I havent seen a personal attack, I havent seen anyone class the lady as being cruel, nor do I see anywhere that members have slated, tarnished or anything else this ladies name.
> Her handling skills have alot to be desired, that is all. Its not acceptable.
> 
> Its a shame you have lost respect for members that is your choice, however I have seen no ass licking.


Oh believe me, I have no choice in the matter. I would far rather the people I respect continue to be respected.

So you don't class people surmising things about this person and then posting them as true as being a personal attack? If the thread had been about rough handling, then why all the nastiness about this one person? Of course it has been a personal attack - a personal attack engineered by the OP and carried on by people to whom I would previously have given credit for having far more integrity than to blacken someone's name with suppositions on an open forum.

I firmly believe in say as I find - and I have found some of what has been written on here tonight by people I used to repsect - still want to respect but find it difficult at the moment - very sad. The attack on bad handling I can undestand. The surmises and suppositions being posted as truth I cannot.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

chichi said:


> *Seriously SW you shock me..*.if you knew one thing about me its that I dont kiss @rse...not in RL or on forums.
> 
> You however seem to want to stick up for this woman who is a complete stranger to you apparently...regardless of how she treats a poor defenceless dog.
> 
> Ive read your posts well enough to know that you are not going to budge on this and you can insult all you like but that woman is bullying the dog. I dont regard it as cruelty as such but I do think its way off of what is expected of a so called animal lover.


MeToo! and a few others....I have learnt a lot from this thread today!....as in, NEVER ever get sucked in by ones who come across as "learned ones" seems to methat Some do it out of just EGO!!.....very sad, but true! and I for one feel sorry for them.....but, I have to thank "these ones" for my lesson learnt! just shows your never too old to learn eh!


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Pet Services Kent said:


> Pretty sure the OP is now on a wind up. Amazed admin haven't shut this one down yet! Can I suggest that the normally sane and rational people who have been sucked into this one simply hit ignore and bow out?
> 
> Just a thought!!


Can pf and normally sane and rational be written in the same sentence?


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## Pet Services Kent (Dec 3, 2010)

Firedog said:


> Can pf and normally sane and rational be written in the same sentence?


Perhaps not  This one does seem to be beyond the normal level of carnage though!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> On the video makers Facebook page. Comments on the YouTube video have been deleted.
> 
> Next.


Links please - or is it just another one of your trollish lies?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> . The attack on bad handling I can undestand. The surmises and suppositions being posted as truth I cannot.


I have only seen comments with regards to the poor handling, and have'nt seen any other comments with regards to the person away from the handling in the video, so no I dont see it as a personal attack.  Maybe I am missing posts, as was only interested in the handling skills, or lack of in this case.

I did comment that this handler is capable, and could handle in the same manner again..


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

We can all agree to disagree and move on...like adults...surely.

Another day...another topic...no point in bad feeling.


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

lol can't believe this thread is still going!!..


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> Ha, ha. You mean Godwin's law.
> 
> Look up Straw man


No thanks, I'm good on my logic and reasoning skills 

I think I've been pretty clear that there is no defending the handler's actions. I think I've also been pretty clear that I think this sort of thing happens far too much and most definitely needs to be addressed.

What I also think needs addressing is your own behavior. 
You took an unlisted video, copied it without permission, edited it without permission, and made it public without permission.

How about asking Emily Guy if she minds if you use her video? How about suggesting to Emily Guy that she post HER video on here?
Since you're friends with Emily Guy on FB, why not ask her who the handler is, and contact the handler yourself? Ask her why she was handling the dog that way, let her explain herself, OR, maybe even come out and say she was totally out of line and regrets how she behaved towards that dog.

You did none of that, but instead took a video never meant to be shared publicly and shared it on a public forum which caused huge, and very predictable drama, and serves the dog in question no purpose whatsoever.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Links please - or is it just another one of your trollish lies?


https://www.facebook.com/emily.guy1


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LahLahsDogs said:


> lol can't believe this thread is still going!!..


Why? 

It's about he suffering of an animal..........


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Meezey said:


> I really think you might want to wind your neck in a bit. *You seem to be very quick about making judgement and commenting on people you know nothing about*? What give you the right??


Like your not!!!....if only you could contemplate that statement!...it's just so laughable!

Would YOU wind your neck in after all the OP has had to contend with all day!....lol...I think not!...to my mind she has coped very well  good on her for sticking up to PF's elite


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

rona said:


> Why?
> 
> It's about he suffering of an animal..........


I think everyone's made their points though... it's just turned into another PF brawl :001_unsure:


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> No thanks, I'm good on my logic and reasoning skills
> 
> I think I've been pretty clear that there is no defending the handler's actions. I think I've also been pretty clear that I think this sort of thing happens far too much and most definitely needs to be addressed.
> 
> ...


The link to her video was posted on her facebook page and shared by dozens of people. Some have open account settings. The video is public and is intended to be so that's the nature of Facebook. As you say this is about the dog. I now know who the handler, dog and judge is as I explained way back.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have only seen comments with regards to the poor handling, and have'nt seen any other comments with regards to the person away from the handling in the video, so no I dont see it as a personal attack.  Maybe I am missing posts, as was only interested in the handling skills, or lack of in this case.
> 
> I did comment that this handler is capable, and could handle in the same manner again..


You did at least qualify yours by saying that you don't know her so you don't know if it something she does often.



Devil-Dogz said:


> This is just one clip of her handling at one show and *the likelihood is that if she has acted as such here more than once, then she is capable of doing so on other occasions,* *I dont know of her so dont know if it is or isnt something that she does often*, I hope it isnt but then if I had known her she would have lost my respect after just the first occasion.


but it's quotes likes these that are completely wrong and are a personal attack (sorry to single you out EV - it's not a personal attack on you - there have been more but I can't be arsed trawling through the whole thread for them)



emmaviolet said:


> *But by the way she does it often to this dog and the dog doesn't flinch, I am taking a guess that this is her way of showing and she does do it habitually instead of a one off.*
> 
> O*r maybe because this one is young she does it to the young ones and not the old ones as they have learnt they will be handled as such if they misbehave and don't stand with their neck ups for HER ros*ette!


There is absolutely no foundation for personal attacks like this. Attack the handling in the vid all you want - but trying to make out she does it all the time and that her dogs are so badly treated they ignore is most definitely an unfounded supposition and hence a personal attack.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Clearly what is most important to some is the reputation and ego of a handler, a handler who clearly oversteps the mark. Dog Show, the very name says it all, it's about the dog not some frustrated person who feels it necessary to act as they do in the video.

This is going round in circles and so maybe it should be closed.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> The link to her video was posted on her facebook page and shared by dozens of people. Some have open account settings. The video is public and is intended to be so that's the nature of Facebook. As you say this is about the dog. I now know who the handler, dog and judge is as I explained way back.


So you asked Emily if it's okay if you copy and edit her video and then post it to you tube?

If you know who the handler, judge and dog are, why the need to make an account here and post your edited, stolen version of the video as the OP?

Have you contacted the handler? The judge? The breed club?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

juliebriggs said:


> https://www.facebook.com/emily.guy1


Can't see the show vod or coments on that link. Think you musty have to be a friend of this person to see it - so you must be on her friend list - all of which adds to the suspicions some of us have that there'smore to this than meets the eye.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Links please - or is it just another one of your trollish lies?


:sad::sad::sad:..... I can partly understand how difficult it would be, but, cant you just give up on these comments to just "save face?"....


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> So you asked Emily if it's okay if you copy and edit her video and then post it to you tube?


No



> If you know who the handler, judge and dog are, why the need to make an account here and post your edited, *stolen version* of the video as the OP?


I didn't at the time of posting but do now as I have stated way back. It's a public video on Youtube.



> Have you contacted the handler? The judge? The breed club?


No just an email to KC with link to the 'public video' again as previously stated.

All the above answered now for the upteenth time.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Can't see the show vod or coments on that link. Think you musty have to be a friend of this person to see it - so you must be on her friend list - all of which adds to the suspicions some of us have that there'smore to this than meets the eye.


Her links can be shared by her friends, I am not on her list but am on some of the sharers.

Put in a friend request.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Can't see the show vod or coments on that link. Think you musty have to be a friend of this person to see it - so you must be on her friend list - all of which adds to the suspicions some of us have that there'smore to this than meets the eye.


You really need to re=read this post!! talk about incoherent and misspelling!.....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Can't see the show vod or coments on that link. Think you musty have to be a friend of this person to see it - so you must be on her friend list - all of which adds to the suspicions some of us have that there'smore to this than meets the eye.


So Emily is in it now?

Even though her videos are on the club site? Sorry I meant FB page not site 
She seems to cover quite a lot of the breed shows with her videos


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> :sad::sad::sad:..... I can partly understand how difficult it would be, but, cant you just give up on these comments to just "save face?"....


Why do I need to save face?

I've done nothing wrong - I've not started a crusade against someone, or fawned over those who have.

I've stood up for what I believed in instead of slavishly following the crowd.

Sorry if that offends you - well, no, I'm not really. I couldn't care less to be honest.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> You really need to re=read this post!! talk about incoherent and misspelling!.....


Leave it, I've had enough and clearly some are foaming at the mouth hence the spelling. 

At least the majority have seen this for what it is, bad handling of a dog using questionable methods and force that have no place in or out of the show ring.

That really is it.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

juliebriggs said:


> It's a public video on Youtube.


No, it's not. It's unlisted. That means you have to have the link in order to see it. Emily Guy shared the link on her personal FB page. Which you then took and made public. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but it's not nice to do something like that - least of all without asking and it makes you look disingenuous when your very first post on a very large and very public forum is one clearly meaning to disparage a handler at a dog show.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MyMillie said:


> Like your not!!!....if only you could contemplate that statement!...it's just so laughable!
> 
> Would YOU wind your neck in after all the OP has had to contend with all day!....lol...I think not!...to my mind she has coped very well  good on her for sticking up to PF's elite


Good for her that she has coped so well.. Would be nice if she would have offered the handler the same chance.

Elite? Where do you get that from? I have NEVER said I agree with the handling, not once. I do hope the handler comes on her and has her say because as I've said there is more two this than meets the eye, and as I said previously, if I'm wrong I will apologise.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> So Emily is in it now?
> 
> Even though her videos are on the club site?
> 
> She seems to cover quite a lot of the breed shows with her videos


No idea - just followed the link from the OP. No idea who Emily is, or what she does - just followed the supplied link looking for this video with all its supposed comments about the handling and couldn't find it.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

ouesi said:


> And there it is...
> Goodwin's law.
> 
> Cue end thread LOL


Godwin's Law jumped into my head when I read the original post before I scrolled down to yours :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

ouesi said:


> No, it's not. It's unlisted. That means you have to have the link in order to see it. Emily Guy shared the link on her personal FB page. Which you then took and made public. It may not seem like a big deal to you, but it's not nice to do something like that - least of all without asking and it makes you look disingenuous when your very first post on a very large and very public forum is one clearly meaning to disparage a handler at a dog show.


A handler that by consensus badly handles the dog. I can live with that, and again her video links 'can be shared and are'.

It's also 'not nice' to see the dog handled that way either.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> You did at least qualify yours by saying that you don't know her so you don't know if it something she does often.
> 
> but it's quotes likes these that are completely wrong and are a personal attack (sorry to single you out EV - it's not a personal attack on you - there have been more but I can't be arsed trawling through the whole thread for them)
> 
> There is absolutely no foundation for personal attacks like this. Attack the handling in the vid all you want - but trying to make out she does it all the time and that her dogs are so badly treated they ignore is most definitely an unfounded supposition and hence a personal attack.


I did just attack the handling. She is doing it all through the video and different tjings, all harsh.

Of course it will be personal when it is a person doing it. I cannot justify her treating a young dog this way, Im sorry you find what I said offensive but they were my thoughts.

I was only suggesting she may not treat all her older dogs the same way as they have learnt what she wants.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

LahLahsDogs said:


> I think everyone's made their points though... it's just turned into another PF brawl :001_unsure:


Yes it has!.... but we need to see who has turned it into a brawl!!! thats more important to me! the ones who have SO stamped on a newbie! it tells me a lot of who to take notice of and respect in the future!....this thread has been a BIG learning curve to me


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> You really need to re=read this post!! talk about incoherent and misspelling!.....


:lol:

Anyone who spells re-read with an equals sign in the middle, starts a sentence with a small letter "t", puts five dots in an ellipse instead of three, and puts an ellipse after an exclamation mark - and all this in less than a line of writing - has absolutely no foundation upon which to be lecturing anyone about coherency, grammar and spelling.

:lol:


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> :lol:
> 
> Anyone who spells re-read with an equals sign in the middle, starts a sentence with a small letter "t", puts five dots in an ellipse instead of three, and puts an ellipse after an exclamation mark - and all this in less than a line of writing - has absolutely no foundation upon which to be lecturing anyone about grammar and spelling.
> 
> :lol:


 ....Yup! thats me trying to express my disdain of you throughout this thread! JMHO and got carried away, sorry for my grammar! BUT I will not try and show any superiority and know it all on here unlike you........................at least all my words are separated for people to read................OK............is about, ummm, many dots haven't counted, lifes toooo short ......... quite a few dots I think, ok? maybe not for Mr/Mrs perfect  you madam/sir need to get out of your own backside!!
And trust me! YOU will never hear from again, on this thread or any other......and before you jump in and say "good" I have just done it for you


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> ....Yup! thats me trying to express my disdain of you throughout this thread! JMHO and got carried away, sorry for my grammar! BUT I will not try and show any superiority and know it all on here unlike you........................at least all my words are separated for people to read................OK............is about, ummm, many dots haven't counted, lifes toooo short ......... quite a few dots I think, ok? maybe not for Mr/Mrs perfect  you madam/sir need to get out of your own backside!!
> And trust me! YOU will never hear from again, on this thread or any other......and before you jump in and say "good" I have just done it for you


You thoroughly nasty person. Post reported.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> :lol:
> 
> Anyone who spells re-read with an equals sign in the middle, starts a sentence with a small letter "t", puts five dots in an *ellipse* instead of three, and puts an *ellipse* after an exclamation mark - and all this in less than a line of writing - has absolutely no foundation upon which to be lecturing anyone about coherency, grammar and spelling.
> 
> :lol:


Oh dear.

You mean *Ellipsis* :lol:


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