# rescue lurcher starting to bite



## stroudie (May 28, 2009)

Hi,

Myself and my husband have had Lily the Lurcher for about 6 months now. We have no children as yet. She is a rescue who was found wondering the streets, so we have no history for her. We have guessed she's approximately 2 years old, and probably a greyhound/staffie cross. 

We live 2 mins away from fields and she gets 2 long walks a day off the lead. We also have a number of toys which I try to give her some play with everyday. I work from home so she has company most of the day, which she generally sleeps through anyway. She is allowed on the sofa and the bed. She is a wonderful loyal dog with which I have a great bond, she loves affection and is always climbing on my lap for a cuddle. She is fantastic with children, and never jealous. Our 5 year old nephew came to stay last weekend and she let him drag her around by her collar and even obeyed his commands. I am also taking her to training classes, but these seems to be more focused around getting her to stand nicely and 'finish', rather than givng me practical skills on for example stopping her stealing food off the kitchen counter - so I am thinking of ditching them or trying agility instead. 

So what's the problem? Well in the last 2 weeks she has started to challange our authority, and while its great to see that she's developed in confidence, its quite worrying that this has started to manifest itself not just vocally but a few occasions in snapping or light biting. For example yesterday when my husband went to pull her off the sofa by the collar she bit him, and did the same to my mother earlier that day. I know it sounds silly to say - but the bites weren't particularly hard and didn't seem intentioned to hurt, just warn. Nevertheless I want to stop it and stop it now! 

I also want to try and understand why it has started now, as we've changed nothing about her routine or the way she is treated. I am guessing that perhaps now she is feeling secure in our home she maybe trying to work her way up the pack? Note: she has never tried to bite me. She also engages in rough play with my husband of which biting has become more of a feature. 

Any advice on techniques we can use in the home to stop the biting altogether either in play or in a behavioural context would be gratefully received!

Many thanks
A


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Well firstly I'd just get her checked over by your vet in case she's in pain.

Secondly never ever let a child drag a dog around..don't care how quiet the dog it's dangerous to allow it. 

Thirdly IF she's physically okay then it's an example of the 'six month rule'. With rescues it usually takes on average 6 months for their true character to completely come out and by the sounds of it your girlie is a dominant bitch who needs to be put back in her place before things get out of hand. You need to re-establish the ground rules and remind her who's actually in charge.

I'd stick with the training classes, maybe take the trainer aside and tell her the problems you are having and hopefully she'll be able to tailor your exercises to suit you. Otherwise find yourself someone that specilises in behavioural training. Lurchers are generally known as placid easy going dogs and rarely have serious aggression issues so I'm guessing she's just got her feet under the table and is pushing your limits to see how long she can get away with it. If she does have staffie in her she'll be a stubborn mule and it won't happen over night. I have 3 staffie crosses all of which are loving kind and gentle dogs...unless they decide they don't want to do something and then it's a battle of wills!!! 

Cesar Milan, Bruce Fogle and Victoria Stillwell books are worth a read to get into the dogs mind.


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## *Kim* (Mar 3, 2009)

Hello, I'm no dog expert by any stretch of the imagination but I would seriously reconsider letting her on the furniture. Our rescue was initially allowed on the sofa and on the bed and he was slowly beginning to take over.
It doesn't take long for them to realise it's a no-go area. If you are wary of pulling her off at first then go behind the sofa and tip her off until she takes the hint and then firmly tell her no if she looks as though she's going to approach the sofa.


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

I don't think you need to worry about her trying to "work her way up the pack". She is a dog and perfectly well aware that you are a different species. However much waffle you might hear about "dominance" within the family dynamic, dogs just don't spend their free time plotting a coup to overthrow you 

IMO it is much more likely that she has become used to being on the sofa and sees no reason why she should move. If you were all comfy, would YOU move unless you wanted to?

Two things to start with:

1) Leave a light house line on her so that when you want to move her, rather than have a confrontation you can simply and gently move her without going near her.

2) Teach her a command for "off", using treats.

There is no reason why she shouldn't share the couch or bed - so long as she realises that YOU choose when she gets on and off 

Do NOT allow your nephew to drag her around by the collar. Very bad idea and totally unfair on the dog.

Regarding the play biting with your husband - read this The Bite Stops Here

It will help the dog to learn that when playing with humans, she has to be VERY gentle.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

JSR said:


> Thirdly IF she's physically okay then it's an example of the 'six month rule'. With rescues it usually takes on average 6 months for their true character to completely come out and by the sounds of it your girlie is a dominant bitch who needs to be put back in her place before things get out of hand. You need to re-establish the ground rules and remind her who's actually in charge.
> 
> .


Interesting point about the 6 month rule. It was about that time that one of my rescue's began displaying dominant/aggressive behaviour. In order to resolve it we had to stop them going on the sofa's and beds and ensure their place in the pack was fully communicated.

People make the mistake far too often when they get rescue's of giving to much affection and not enough discipline. This un balances the dog and ends up in the sort of problems which I have experienced and which the OP maybe just beginning to experience.

Good point!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> I don't think you need to worry about her trying to "work her way up the pack". She is a dog and perfectly well aware that you are a different species. However much waffle you might hear about "dominance" within the family dynamic, dogs just don't spend their free time plotting a coup to overthrow you
> 
> IMO it is much more likely that she has become used to being on the sofa and sees no reason why she should move. If you were all comfy, would YOU move unless you wanted to?
> 
> ...


Good post!

I agree don't get too boiled down with dominance. 
You say she is aprox 2?? ish. Could it possibly be a case of the "kevins"?
Also if she was asleep when you reached out for her collar, she may have been startled- hence the snap??? 
I think colliepoodle has given you some great advice, especially concerning the house line and "off" command.

Let us know how you get on


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I would definitely teach her 'off' and teach her that she allowed on the furniture at your request not when she thinks she should and that if she is told to get off then she should. Even if to do it you tell her to get off then after a few minutes invite her back up.

As for the counter surfing I'm afraid that is a greyhound thing and comes with the pleasure of owning a greyhound or a greyhound cross. As far as they are concerned if its edible and on the counter in a place that they an reach its theirs. My greyhound is 31" at the shoulder so as you can imagine theres not a lot he cann't reach if he wants it. Our kitchen is that tiny if he goes in there he has to back out so fortunately her doesn't bother too much as he's not very good in reverse.


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## stroudie (May 28, 2009)

Dear All,

First of all thank you very much for the time you have taken to read my post carefully and write your considered replies. I think I will be taking something away from each of them. Its also very reasuring to hear that no one thinks she's a dog with serious behavioural issues about to manifest. This has given me the confidence to fell that this is a problem which with a little hard work I can resolve myself.


Infact yesterday after the first post I did go back to basics and was much stricker with her, as we had been at the very begining and there already seems to be an instant effect! I always wanted a well trained dog, so while she has had lots of love she has had strong rules from day 1. For example she is not aloud to beg pester at the table while we eat and knows to sit in her basket until she sees the plates are cleared. I have also trianed her to come back to a whistle on walks which she does 9 times out of 10, which I believe is pretty good for a lurcher. 

I am most grateful for the suggestion about the off command - I never thought of that! :idea:That's brilliant. I like having her on the sofa, as she is increadibly affectionate and I would deeply miss her cuddles if she didn't. (We have rough effect wooden floors downstairs - so I am not prepared to sit on the floor to cuddle her), but what I've never understood is how to differentiate with her when its ok to climb up - my lap in the evening - and when its not - my mother in law's lap after a muddy walk. This will give me the tool to do this.

Re food of the counter - yeah - I used to have basset hounds for 20 years of my childhood and beyond and they were terrible counter thieves too - so I am used to making sure there is nothing they can eat - so not really worried on this one.

Finally i will certianly limit what my nephew does around her.

Thanks again
A


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

:thumbup1: You're doing brill already!! I've fostered many lurchers over the years and yet to find one that doesn't counter surf...not good cos now my poodle x has learnt the trick too!!! Wouldn't mind but he doesn't really 'do' food and just drags things off and throws them down to the smaller dogs!!! That said I've promised myself my next forever dog will be a lurcher or greyhound. 

My pack are all allowed on the sofa and the beds but they do know if I say move it means move, it's interesting when I have fosters that haven't understood, one of my dogs usually 'tells them off' and shows them the correct way to behave. I rarely have to train new fosters into the house rules as my dogs do it for me!!! Same with housetraining, most understand within a day or 2 that going out the dog flap is the right place to go!! (Except my JRT who doesn't go outside if its raining..I'd like to meet the person that said JRT's were hardy little dogs!!!:001_huh


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

stroudie said:


> Dear All,
> 
> First of all thank you very much for the time you have taken to read my post carefully and write your considered replies. I think I will be taking something away from each of them. Its also very reasuring to hear that no one thinks she's a dog with serious behavioural issues about to manifest. This has given me the confidence to fell that this is a problem which with a little hard work I can resolve myself.
> 
> ...


That all sounds encouraging 

Lurchers are wonderful dogs. I had one years ago and he was the sweetest dog ever. He was also very bright and in fact it was through him that I caught the competitive obedience "bug" - he picked things up as quickly as the average Collie - so don't underestimate your own chap's ability to learn what is expected of him


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## flufffluff39 (May 25, 2009)

Keep the training up she is just testing your authority


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## SammyB (Nov 7, 2011)

Hi,
we've just adopted a 7 month old male lurcher, Charlie. He's been with us for just a week and has also started to bite.

We expected some problems as we have no history for him, but in all other ways he is amazing. He is house trained, is passive around the house and on the lead, he like people and other dogs, he isn't agressive over food or furniture, which he is not allowed on. The only problem is that when in the garden or on walks,he suddenly gets excited, jumps up and grabs your arm. As he has adult teeth, he hurts, leaving bruises and sometimes breaking the skin. 

He doesn't act agressively at this point, it seems only to be playful, but it is getting stressful as you don't know when it will happen.

Does anyone have any tips for me?

Thanks


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## dimah (Jul 13, 2011)

SammyB said:


> Hi,
> we've just adopted a 7 month old male lurcher, Charlie. He's been with us for just a week and has also started to bite.
> 
> We expected some problems as we have no history for him, but in all other ways he is amazing. He is house trained, is passive around the house and on the lead, he like people and other dogs, he isn't agressive over food or furniture, which he is not allowed on. The only problem is that when in the garden or on walks,he suddenly gets excited, jumps up and grabs your arm. As he has adult teeth, he hurts, leaving bruises and sometimes breaking the skin.
> ...


Hi SammyB, our dog Max does a very similar thing to your Charlie. Except he also likes to go nuts and tackle us as well as nipping when he goes into what we like to call "bounce mode"!

He also had a big issue with mouthing even at home but we've got a much better handle on it now. He's improving all the time - what helped the most was having all the family either leave the room or put him out of the room whenever his teeth touch human skin - whether we think it accidental or not.

My recommendation to you with what worked for us, is to ALWAYS take some treats with you on walks (if that is when the nipping is happening) at least until he starts to learn to control himself. Then when eventually you can calm him enough to get him to lie down, he can be rewarded for his calmness.

When Max starts to bounce (and the nipping of the elbows and hands and coats begins) we _stop moving_ immediately. He's trying to get you to play - but he needs to learn he's going the wrong way about it. Also, he has to learn that only you can initiate play. We carry on walking only when he has lay down and calmed.

Something else I didn't realise that the lovely wise people on here told me is that his age is a very important factor! Both our dogs are entering their "teen" years and I definitely noticed a change in Max. It might seem worrying at first and like nothing is helping, but if everyone is consistent you should notice some improvements within a few days.

There's lots and lots of info on this forum already about play-biting and mouthing to help you, I just tried to put in my experiences and hope that helps.


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## doggiepal (Oct 30, 2011)

Sammy, this might be helpful for teaching bite inhibition. Teaching Bite Inhibition | Dog Star Daily

Re counter surfing - this is fantastic. Solving Counter Surfing- Clicker Dog Training - YouTube


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Hi there, welcome to the forum and congrats on getting Lilly this far 

I'm noticing that many of the solutions include references to how this is a dog problem - as in 'she's testing authority, she's dominant' etc.

But right there in the first post there is reference to a child being allowed to drag around by the collar and then there are two incidents involving taking the collar and removing her acccess to the sofa.

We have no way of what's going on inside a dog's mind but we have a pretty good idea about social structures among different types and combinations of dogs. Dominance is, I would think, not relevant here. This is a collar sensitivity and possibly a resource guarding issue. This is the simplest explanation.

Play biting is a normal part of dog-dog play and if you want to encourage it in dog-human play thats up to you but tbh with an adult dog of unknown history as is the case for you I would not encourage it. Yes its true that dogs get less inhibited as they settle in (just as someone would do in a new job for example) but we must understand that we are training them even when we don't think we are - the dog is learning about how to behave and what works (and what doesn't).

The increase in play biting may be something that is gradully escalating as the players in the game become more comfortable with one another. But escalating in rough play is most associated with arousal and difficulty to self calm - being a the type of dog she is this is quite likely too. So impulse control work is def going to be important here.
Shorten games, have obedience breaks of at least twice the length of the game e.g. play for 10 seconds, obedience break for 20 and then resume. Calming down is rewarded with being allowed to play again. Plus brining her up and then down is teaching her how to regulate her calmness and arousal.

I would not allow her back on the sofa until this is sorted. She should also wear a houseline so that she can be handled without danger. Being up on the sofa, especially for cuddles is a priviledge so must be earned. 
Sofa manners must be taught separate to the collar work and not combining them until both, separately, are perfect.

To teach off:
- invite dog up on sofa, no reward for that as its a reward in itself
- immediately say 'off' and then toss a couple of yummies onto the floor
- when she gets off treat her again for 4 on the floor and repeat

At the start of theexercise only allow her up on the sofa for a split second as its harder to get off when more settled. But as she gets the game you can slowly increase the amount of time she spends on the sofa before asking her off.
You will also need to practice this exercise with you in different positions e.g. start with standing beside the sofa and teach that and then teach the same exericse with you sitting beside her. Others in the house will also need to practice these exercises separately.

Collar grabs - more on collar pressure here: http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/gettingouttadodge/

Teach a non-confrontational way of moving her such as hand targeting - more here: http://pawsitivedawgs.wordpress.com/2010/12/27/focus/

Teaching bite inhibition is not relevant at this stage of her life. Sure we can teach adult dogs to take treats in a more gentle and mannerly fashion but its unlikely that puppy bite inhibition exercises are going to help.

Your dog has showed great restraint given the damage she is potentially able to do when uncomfortable. Learn about doggie signaling and discomfort signaling so that her discomfort can be recognised and she is not forced into using escalated signaling such as inhibited biting and growling for example.
You are dead right in that these were warnings - lots of dogs never go beyond that but the dog shouldn't be put in a situation where her discomfort is ignored or worse.

Child training needed here too - do not allow any child or handle her collar. Its great that your nephew is interested in training her so keep encouraging that and get him involved in teh new training regime and exercises, with proper supervision obviously.

Maybe find a different pet dog training class that will teach more relevant real world exercises; try the APDT UK website for trainers near you.

Best of luck!


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

stroudie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I also want to try and understand why it has started now, as we've changed nothing about her routine or the way she is treated. I am guessing that perhaps now she is feeling secure in our home she maybe trying to work her way up the pack? Note: she has never tried to bite me. She also engages in rough play with my husband of which biting has become more of a feature.
> 
> ...


The rough play with your husband must stop. It's quite likely to be the root of what's gone wrong. She has to learn it is *NEVER* OK to put her teeth on a person, and she shouldn't be put in a position where she becomes over-exited to the point where she can't exercise self-control.

I'm one of the many that don't believe dogs try to work their way up a 'pack', specially when the pack consists of humans. After the time she's been with you, she's learnt what to expect about living with you - she's learnt it's ok to play rough.

I don't see aproblem with allowing use of the sofa. My two dogs are on my sofa now, and they sleep on my bed (they will move off on command) - the only behaviour problem I have is one of my dog's obsession with football!


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## SammyB (Nov 7, 2011)

Thank you for your posts and advice. I have got a lot to work on here 

Sounds like Charlie is behaving in a similar way to Max. He gets very excited when playing and does indeed "bounce". Here I can tell his nipping is very accidental.

It is mainly walking when Charlie begins to bite properly (and it hurts). he is so calm most of the time, then all of a suddenl, and mainly on grass, he suddenly starts bouncing. I have tried turning my back on himm and ignoring him and this is when he then grabs the back of my upper arm. I do manage to subdue him, but this really means shortening the lead so he can't really move.

Today he was a little better and calmed down quicker, for which he received a lot of praise. I will try the treats at the appropriate time and see if it helps. He is learning so quickly. I worked with him for 15 mins yesterday on "leave", which he picked up so quick and he is already sitting when he gets his food and when he gets a treat as he know this is the best way to get it.

To Burrowzig - I read about the calming signs and am totally confused. He exhibits some of the signs seemingly in the right circumstances. We don't play rough with him as we see this is confusing for him.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Stroudies posts are from 2 years ago. SammyB necro'd the thread asking about a similar problem. There seems to be a bit of confusion there 

I used to make sure to walk somewhere with handy trees, lamp posts and fences to tie Rupert to when he did this sort of thing. I'd just clip his leash around them (double ended leash) and move out of range of his teeth and paws until he calmed down a bit. Sounds awful I'm sure but it kept my skin intact and stopped the frustration of trying to ignore a dog who was jumping on me, biting me, scratching me, digging at me and who was basically impossible to ignore. Once he'd learned to sit I could ask for that instead.

He came to me as an adolescent who'd never been taught that using teeth on people wasn't allowed. Nor had he learned bite inhibition, I still have scars from his play bites.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

In my opinion, you are thinking about this problem in completely the wrong manner. The very thought that domestic dogs still display packing behaviour, or that they try to test authority and possess dominance relationships is not supported by evidence- it isn't even a theory. Quite frankly, this viewpoint is completely laughable considering the evolution of dog behaviour and the knowledge we have of real packing behaviour in wild canids. A dog that acted like this would not be the hugely successful species it is now. Packing behaviour, through natural and artificial selection, would not be selected for. Domestic dogs are, at heart, independent, scavenging species- everything from their physical to behavioural conformations give evidence to this. They are gregarious, but that does not imply strict dominance relationships. And even if they did act like wolves still, they would not be challenging for dominance, as wild packs are family units with preformed hierarchies aiming to reduce aggression, with members leaving the pack at maturity to start their own pack before any sexual possession could start. So, with that said, let's move on to what you can actually do to help 

As others have posted, keeping a light houseline on her at all times will help in handling her more safely. Do not allow your child to be anywhere near her unsupervised. Aggression is not just displayed for fun, your dog is feeling genuinely threatened in the scenarios you are putting her in, and is trying to communicate to you. No doubt she has been trying to communicate this to you for a number of weeks and months, through subtle body language signals (calming signals- please read up on these), and since they have been ignored, she feels the need to step up the intensity and hostility of communication in order to feel safer. 

Teaching a fun and rewarding 'Off' command is essential, as is reducing the chances of her getting on the sofa at all by as much as possible. 

Have you looked into clicker training? This is a fun and engaging activity, which will improve your bond. It revolves around teaching and learning, rather than forcing your dog to do things just because someone has drilled it in to you that dogs should 'obey' their owners no matter what. It is up to you to teach her to want to do the things you want her to do, because she finds them internally rewarding. 

The more instant results you have seen through strict training are common results through suppressing behaviours, i.e. the more you punish and be strict on her, the more inhibited her external behaviour gets. Imagine you are scared of flying and freak out on a plane, but when others shout at you and manhandle you, you stop to avoid the consequences of punishment. But is thus fixing the behaviour? Hardly, just suppressing it whilst the internal emotions continue. 

A confident dog will not show aggression- they will be socially confident and relaxed. Your dog is far from confident in my eyes.

Sorry, this post has been a bit of a mish-mash, and I hope you don't take what I have written as a personal attack, but I think it's important to point out the inconsistencies with your current approach, and with the approaches of a few other posters here. Dominance is not a factor of domestic dog relationships. Dominance relationships take two- someone to hold the dominant position, another to hold the subordinate position. It doesn't work if someone is aggressing and another is aggressing.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Our 5 year old nephew came to stay last weekend and she let him drag her around by her collar and even obeyed his commands.


Untill you get this resolved I think you should keep the child away from the dog completly & never alone with the dog. Once you've got it sorted out then don't let him drag that or any other dog around the collar.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> I am also taking her to training classes, but these seems to be more focused around getting her to stand nicely and 'finish', rather than givng me practical skills on for example stopping her stealing food off the kitchen counter - so I am thinking of ditching them or trying agility instead


I suggest you try The Guild Of Dog Trainers for an all round trainer, they are the only accreditation body which has trainers of all leanings and methods, a very strong point about them from a pet owners point of veiw is rule 10 under which all their accredited trainers must honour, also if any trainer of theirs you contact feels its not the sort of dog or situation where their methods are suitable they will probably point you one who is, read rule 10 below.

The Guild of Dog Trainers - Dog Training, Dog Training and Behaviour, Dog Training Courses, Dog Behaviour Courses

.


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## SammyB (Nov 7, 2011)

Got a one to one training with Charlie tomorrow. I hope it can help because I am getting to the end of my tether. His biting is getting worse despite following the advice of turning away and ignoring him, and his is really beginning to inflict damage.

I am worried that his playfulness is turning into agression, but also realsie that my ignorance doesn't help either. I don't know how to calm him when he goes hyper. Ignoring him helps momentarily then minutes later he goes back to hyper mode. This lasts for hours. I though maybe he needs more exercise so I had him running and fetching for an hour and then an hours walk and when we got back he went straight into hyper mode and charged round the garden for 15 minutes. Maybe I should take the valium


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

SammyB said:


> Got a one to one training with Charlie tomorrow. I hope it can help because I am getting to the end of my tether. His biting is getting worse despite following the advice of turning away and ignoring him, and his is really beginning to inflict damage.
> 
> I am worried that his playfulness is turning into agression, but also realsie that my ignorance doesn't help either. I don't know how to calm him when he goes hyper. Ignoring him helps momentarily then minutes later he goes back to hyper mode. This lasts for hours. I though maybe he needs more exercise so I had him running and fetching for an hour and then an hours walk and when we got back he went straight into hyper mode and charged round the garden for 15 minutes. Maybe I should take the valium


Hi SammyB, welcome to PF  I think I was one of the ones that mistakenly answered the OP not noticing that the thread was resurrected from quite a while ago. Your problems seem to be the ones that are current.

I am presuming that your dog is adolescent - I will have to go back and read more. And that this behaviour occurs during games, high energy situations and possibly times when he doesn't want to do what you want?

If I am presuming correctly this is very typical behaviour and is most associated with arousal and his inability to selfcalm.
Ignoring probably won't work on its own as a strategy as this behaviour is a coping strategy so external rewards/withdrawal of external rewards is not as powerful.

His mouthing is getting harder because his behaviour isn't working - he is not getting the social relief he craves.

Here are a couple of links for you that might offer some help and help you to increase your understanding:

Nipping and mouthing and biting oh my! | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog! The mouthing part being relevant to you right now.

Crazy Canines | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog! This entire series will be helpful to you but especially the first part which will help you to understand arousal and why extra physical exercise is not really the solution here, indeed it may be contributing to the problem.

Best of luck


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## SammyB (Nov 7, 2011)

tripod said:


> Hi SammyB, welcome to PF  I think I was one of the ones that mistakenly answered the OP not noticing that the thread was resurrected from quite a while ago. Your problems seem to be the ones that are current.
> 
> I am presuming that your dog is adolescent - I will have to go back and read more. And that this behaviour occurs during games, high energy situations and possibly times when he doesn't want to do what you want?
> 
> ...


thanks Anne. Yes, Charlie is adolescent and it does seem to be an attention seeking thing. I have noticed he goes more hyper if I am on the phone.

The training session seemed to be successful, but mainly because the trainer was a stranger and I am not comfortable using his methods which are basically negative correction. So back to square one!

Thanks for the links. Will read avidly.

Yours black and blue but still hopeful!


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