# Little playful cat now seems lifeless and sad? Please help.



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

Hello all, my first post on here and I hope you can help me.

I got two cats from north birmingham cats protection nearly 2 years ago - they were litter mates. (Only intended to get one cat, but they were the last two and the other one reached out for his mate so I took both)

A domestic shorthair black and white - Little Ed (Smallest of his original group)
A domestic longhair ginger and white - Kat Koopa

(Both neutered well looked after male cats)

They have lived togther all this time without too bad a real problem but now they are like 2years old they are starting to fight more, it was play originally - playing tag etc but now theres a lot of growling, hissing and it can be very loud.

The cats are indoor more often than not and have like 3hour play sessions on the evening on weekdays and 8hour play sessions on weekends (OUTSIDE).

The cats bedroom is the living room together (both of them) til recently. But I came in last week and Little Ed had a cut on his side, and back leg which looked horrible - actually blood on him. 

The main reason I post on here is because Little Ed isnt the cat he used to be, he would attack our hands (in a fun way) and wrestle us etc. But now he just sits limp and quiet on the chair looking really sad. He comes and sits on us etc (More than he used to) and loves to be picked up etc. He is very happy around us, but still seems so lifeless and inactive, he is also overgrooming.

I have bought a FELIWAY CAT DIFFUSER (havent used it yet it came today) and we apply cat tea tree cream daily to the irritated bits of skin where he had scratched off his fur etc. 

Would it help if him and his brother were seperated at night - Little Ed sleep in our room, Kat Koopa stay in living room? (They cry for each other if seperated)

Little Ed went to the vet 3 weeks ago because of this, his glands were a little bit up etc and the vet gave him a 2 in 1 anti inflammatory and antibiotics injection.

What I really need is to know any other reasons why he seems so sad and what I can do to make him better? Is it because of the constant bullying from Kat Koopa do you think? could there be other factors?

Please help if you can, any advice appreciated. 

Thanks

Luke


----------



## ella (Jan 1, 2009)

hiya

I'm not clear if little Ed has been to the vet since he had the injury on his leg? It may be worth getting it checked out, as cats claws are incredibly sharp and also have a lot of bacteria under them that can cause problems.

I wonder if he may have an underlying infection? Did the vet do any blood tests?

Healthy cats can also 'pick' on poorly ones, so I think it may be worth more vet checks.


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

Little Ed went to vet a few weeks ago. Injury occured only a few days ago. But he has been kinda down and deflated for a while (One of the reasons we took him to the vets in the first place).

The vet gave him antibiotics and anti inflammatory. Looks like we may require another visit?

I thought that may have been the case about healthy cats attacking sick ones, seems to be like that across the animal kingdom my fish do it too. Should I still try isolating them at night? maybe they'll appreciate each others company a bit more in the day then?

Hopefully Feli-way cat diffuser will help too? have you used one before?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

I am afraid to say it sounds, as you have surmised, Little Ed is unhappy and stressed-out because he is being bullied constantly by your other cat
This kind of thing can happen with cats unfortunately, as they become adults.

I have the same situation with my 2 neutered male cats, brothers aged 2.5 years old. One of them (coincidentally a longhaired ginger & white cat!) is very much an alpha male, and he bullies the other one (a sweet natured tabby).

When I first adopted them as rescues they were 14 mths old, and still enjoyed playfighting together. The Shelter insisted they had to be rehomed together, which was fine by me as I wanted 2 cats anyway.

From the start, there were a few signs my longhaired cat was being a bit of a bully with the tabby, but the tabby would stand up for himself so it seemed he was handling it OK. But as time went on the bullying became more frequent and more rough, and could not be allowed to continue. I was constantly having to remove a very upset bullied cat from the situation and comfort him.

Nowadays, as I am at home a lot, I keep a careful eye on both cats whilst they are indoors together and at the least hint of bullying I intervene, and tell the bullying cat to stop. If he doesn't respond immediately I slyly give him a squirt of water from the water pistol, (which he hates), and he stops, though it doesn't stop him doing it again unfortunately!

I have learnt to identify and anticipate the times when the bullying is likely to occur, and either adopt tactics to reduce the risk, or nip it in the bud using distraction techniques, such as feeding treats to both cats simultaneously.

Basically the bullying cat, as *alpha male*, thinks he must come first always. So if he thinks the other cat is getting more fuss made of him, or more food, he objects and picks on him. The clever trick therefore is to make the alpha male feel he is *Number One* cat when the two of them are together, but also make as much fuss as possible of the other cat when the alpha male is not in the room.

As it is not possible to *reason* an alpha male cat out of what is his instinctive territorial behaviour, you have to become a *mediator*.
Using methods that are as *kind* as possible. Saying a firm "no" to the bully is OK but shouting at him will just frighten him and not change anything. Keeping a water pistol primed and ready is also useful.

Little Ed's confidence has been badly damaged by the bullying and it is important for you to find ways to rebuild it. Firstly Little Ed needs some safe space of his own in the house where your other cat cannot get at him and bully him.

Definitely keep the cats separate at night. Try having Little Ed sleep in your room, so he feels comforted by being close to you. But bear in mind Kat Koopa may be very jealous of this arrangement as he may see it as threatening his alpha position in the house, and might therefore start bullying Little Ed in response. So you may find it works better if Kat Koopa is in your room overnight and Little Ed in a separate room. The object of the exercise is to give Little Ed a *safe space* at night, where he can relax away from Kat Koopa.

Make a point of always giving Little Ed lots of attention, fuss and treats whenever you are on your own with him. Stop the moment Kat Koopa comes in, and instead make a fuss of him, so he has no reason to feel jealous of Little Ed.

Frankly I do worry my tabby cat is unhappy, but I do everything I can to make him feel loved, and to minimise any damaging effects from his brother. When his brother is around it is true he goes quiet and rather withdrawn, but this is mainly a self protective mechanism as he has learnt if he doesn't draw attention to himself he is less likely to get bullied by the alpha male. 
When his brother is not in the room, he comes back to life and is playful and loving.

If it reached the point where he seemed sad all the time, and nothing I tried would remedy it, then I would have to rehome one of the cats. But in all fairness, I think it would have to be the alpha male who got rehomed (preferably to a home that could guarantee no other cats, present or future), as I would see no reason why the bullied cat should go. I hope it won't come to that with your cats.

As well as the Feliway diffuser, I'd also suggest a course of *ZYLKENE*
which is a supplement you can buy from the vets or online without a prescription. It is a powder which you'd add to Little Ed's food, and has a calming effect, reducing anxiety levels. It has no side effects and has had some good results reported. You could maybe even add it to Kat Koopa's food as well, as he too is suffering from insecurity about his territory.

Good luck, and keep us posted with how things go.


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

I'm glad you agree just wanted a second opinion so I could start putting things into place.

Another factor here is theres an unneutered male who shares our communal gardens who has fights with Kat Koopa (He has attacked Ed on occasions aswell) and it seems that Koopa then takes out his anger on Ed when he comes in.

He also seems to get angrier when I wont let him out (ie when raining etc) - He screams at the door then comes back and attacks Ed. 

Reckon either of those circumstances have any baring?

Thanks for your excellent advice. So is it your opinion that it would be better to keep Koopa in with me at night and leave Ed to have a peaceful sleep in the living room? We really wanted to have Ed with us but if you think that would only make things worse we wont do it.

I just bought a Supersoaker Platinum X2000 XTERMINATOR with quad barrells to help break up kitty mayhem. 

Very good cat psychology lesson for me about the Alpha male etc. He does look at me, my flatmate etc furiously when we have Ed on our laps and then he waddles out angrily ! but ironically koopa VERY RARELY wants to sit on us.

It does sound like you have a very similar situation so hopefully your advice will make Ed less sad 

Thanks again for that.


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

lukeh85 said:


> > Another factor here is theres an unneutered male who shares our communal gardens who has fights with Kat Koopa (He has attacked Ed on occasions aswell) and it seems that Koopa then takes out his anger on Ed when he comes in.
> >
> > He also seems to get angrier when I wont let him out (ie when raining etc) - He screams at the door then comes back and attacks Ed.
> >
> ...


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

Haha Koopa hates being told what to do too he breaks into the Kitchen (not allowed) repeatedly and squeals angrily as his airlifted from the prohibited zone  

OK Understood, I'll try Ed with us first and see how Koopa reacts in the morning. Sounds like a good plan.

Was only joking about the huge supersoaker, it'll be one of those little plastic ones you'd get out of a cracker - the only thing that worries me is he seems to be immune to water - His powers know no bounds.

These Alpha males eh? Who'd have em, the woman who I got the cats off said males were less combat-ready than females etc too, the more time goes on the more I dont believe that can be true 

Thanks for your advice again I will post up here the results tomorrow


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

lukeh85 said:


> > Was only joking about the huge supersoaker, it'll be one of those little plastic ones you'd get out of a cracker
> 
> 
> Oh right, haha Relieved to hear it.
> ...


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

Haha I had 4 cats when I was a kid, they didnt seem half as problematic as the 2 ive got now though

The plot thickened last night. I was stroking them and found a flea on my hand so I went to get a flea comb, used it and found about 10 fleas per cat, and about 8 bigger more nasty looking things which I suspect to be ticks.

No wonder they're angry.

I only used our monthly Bob Martin Spot on Flea treatment last week though so dont know what they're doing with fleas? We've since bought a Bob Martin All in One flea treatment spray and sprayed their bedding, our bedding (Anything fabric basically) the tiny bit of carpet we have and the cats themselves. (The house has leather sofas, wooden floors, wooden blinds - no curtains so there is minimal flea friendly areas)

I then this morning used the flea comb again to remove "Flea Debris" from the cats. They actually seem better already. Havent had a fight overnight or anything, no clumps of fur on the floor.

Could I ask what flea/tick treatments you use for your cats? Bob Martins Spot on seems to do little or nothing. And any tips for keeping them away?

Should I be using a tablet once a month for the killing of anything on the cats, followed by a flea spray on all their beds and their two pillows (and anything else I can find to spray) followed by a spot on to repel? Expensive business this!


----------



## Munchkyns (May 11, 2012)

No no no, not Bob Martin please.

I've heard absolutely awful things about it. The best case scenario, it just doesn't work, but it can also make your cats really really ill. 

I'm totally inexperienced with regards to cat behaviour but just wanted to mention about Bob Martins before you use it again.

I get Advocate all in one flea & worming spot on treatment from my vets. It is expensive though. More experienced cat owners will perhaps be able to give you some other options.


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

ahh i dont think its ticks because they're black.

Think it was adult fleas and small fleas I saw, I assumed the bigger ones were ticks - I assumed wrong. 

Agreed Im not rating Bob Martin at all. Hoping for some better suggestions  I dont mind paying more if it keeps these horrible little creatures out of my house (the fleas, not the cats)


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

apparently RIP FLEAS Spray is the best, anyone tried it? Its reviews online seem really good.


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

lukeh85 said:


> apparently RIP FLEAS Spray is the best, anyone tried it? Its reviews online seem really good.


RIP fleas is pretty good...but it is to spray the house and not the cats....the cats would need a spot on such as Advantage. RIP has quite a strong smell, I think Indorex is easier on the nose.


----------



## codyann (Jan 8, 2011)

again i have used RIP fleas it does work but it is pretty strong smelling 

heres the link to some, if you wait until the weekend they normally have it for 10% off


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I use "Acclaim" for the house, as it doesn't smell too strongly, and Effipro Spot-on treatment for the cats. 

As your cats sound quite badly affected with fleas you may need to repeat the treatment every 4 weeks to get on top of it. And spray your house every week. (Ensure you keep the cats out of sprayed areas for half an hour minimum after spraying).

I would think what you are seeing in the cats' fur is fleas and flea 'dirt' 
(flea excrement). Although if both types of foreign body are moving, then it could well be adult fleas and baby fleas. 

If they were ticks they would be attached to the body and are not easy to remove. You have to be careful you don't just pull the body off and leave the tick head embedded, as it can become infected and make the cat ill. I used to have a cat, a great hunter, who picked up ticks occasionally. I used to dab surgical spirit on them before removing them. The alcohol killed them making them easier to remove whole. The alcohol has to be washed off the cat as it is poisonous to him if he licks it.

Hopefully your cats will be happier all round if they are not itchy wth fleas.


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

OK my conclusion has been

FRONTLINE SPOT ON CAT - For the Cats
RIP FLEA SPRAY - For the environment

My only question is now, because I used Bob Martins all in one flea spray (Which judging by the reviews online and advice here was an awful thing to do) how long should I wait before using the above mentioned stuff?

It's been very informative on here the last few days


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

How long ago did you use the Bob Martins?

If it was 4 weeks ago or more, then it would be OK to use the new stuff. If less than that, I think I would rather take advice either from the *vet*
or the *manufacturers* of Frontline spot-on. As flea killers are 
strong chemicals it could be dangerous for the cats to repeat dosage too soon.

However it won't be a problem spraying the house immediately with the RIP. I'd advise not doing all rooms at once, in case you can't stand the smell of RIP! You might need somewhere to escape the pong! As others have said Indorex is easier on the nose.  (and on the lungs actually!)

Air the rooms well (after the required time keeping them closed) to ensure your cats don't inhale too much of the RIP from the air.


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

Have checked Bob Martin date it was 2 weeks ago. I checked with Vet who allowed me to proceed with Frontline. That did the business.

I spent 2 days with a flea comb getting any kind of crap I could find off them, and I did a 12hr vacuum of house (6am to 6pm on sat)

I found white flea egg/larvae inbetween the boards of my laminate flooring. I salted them to dehydrate and kill them. The last 3 comb tests the cats have been clean.

All of their bedding etc is boil washed and im waiting for the RIP FLEAS to come in the post, I will then nuke the house and hopefully the saga will be closed.

Cats seem happier already. Thanks everyone for helping me. KAT KOOPA and LITTLE ED send their love.


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

THANKS FROM.

Kat Koopa









LITTLE ED









I then got them some beers to celebrate


----------



## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

That last pic made me giggle!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Luke -- v. pleased you have managed to *exterminate* the biting wee beasties from the cats and delighted to hear the cats are happier! Could this mean the end of Koopa bullying Little Ed ?

Lovely pics btw.........gorgeous cats! Usually I am not a big a fan of B & W cats (sorry to say) but I love Little Ed --he looks very cuddly as well as being a handsome boy!


----------



## lukeh85 (Jun 14, 2012)

I always thought wasps were the devils insect until I discovered adult fleas nice to see them gone, Koopa definately less angry. I've got a FELIWAY diffuser going and koopa is rubbing against stuff more etc. I also ordered some SERUM DROPS or something from Pets at home so that should be good (you put a drop on their food and it calms,destresses them?)

haha thanks. I went to get a Ginger cat that day, there was only one Ginger cat and he was in a cage with his litter mate (Ed), Ed reached out for Koopa as he was lifted from the cage, so I had to take both

IT's been an expensive and traumatic ride.

Thanks again chillminx for ur assistane


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

lukeh85 said:


> I always thought wasps were the devils insect until I discovered adult fleas nice to see them gone, Koopa definately less angry. I've got a FELIWAY diffuser going and koopa is rubbing against stuff more etc. I also ordered some SERUM DROPS or something from Pets at home so that should be good (you put a drop on their food and it calms,destresses them?)
> 
> haha thanks. I went to get a Ginger cat that day, there was only one Ginger cat and he was in a cage with his litter mate (Ed), Ed reached out for Koopa as he was lifted from the cage, so I had to take both
> 
> ...


You're welcome Very pleased to hear Koopa has calmed down.

My ginger cat is a bit volatile too!. Maybe it's the redheaded gene at work (just like in humans with red hair)

Funnily enough I got my ginger cat in a similar way to you. I went to the local Shelter looking for a ginger cat, and mine was in a pen with his litter mate, a tabby. The staff said they had to be rehomed together and I was happy to take both. Turned out the tabby is very even tempered with an endearing nature, so probably this is why he has put up with his brother's 
bullying. Fortunately he seems more confident these days, able to stand up to his brother


----------

