# Unsafe ‘backyard breeder‘?



## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

Hope this is the right cat forum to ask for help on this topic! Before I get to what im asking ill give some information. I already have a purebred ragdoll cat and I would like to get another cat so I decided on getting another ragdoll since I had liked and had experience with the breed. There hadnt been any ragdoll kittens for sale for quite a while then I found a litter of kittens which were at least half ragdoll, the father is a pedigree ragdoll and apparently has papers, the mother is apparently half ragdoll half persian and has no papers because of her not being pedigree, I have no way of knowing if the mother is really that mix or not but she is long haired but her coat isnt like a ragdoll or a persians (its black with some white patches). The seller/breeder is very nice and communicated well, she sent us lots of pictures and videos and we video called her too where we could see the kittens and their mother together. She is keeping them until 12 weeks and should have all the vaccinations (although we are unsure how long she is keeping the kittens with mother, I will ask her tomorrow). She told us the mother is almost 2 and this is her second litter. In all videos the kittens look quite happy and healthy, she is letting us meet kittens in person when they get first vaccination in a week or two. Today we got a video where we noticed an adult cat with the kittens, we thought it was their dad but soon worked out it was her second ragdoll (we seen it in her messaging profile picture and she told us she had two), she told us that she would be moving the kittens to her house with their dad (they were born at her mums house apparently as the kittens mother belongs to her mum) and we arent sure if their mother came with them (going to ask her tomorrow) as they are meant to be 7 weeks exactly in a couple of days. I have sent the deposit for a kitten today as I thought everything seems fine and the seller/breeder seems trustworthy however there was something that didnt sit right with me, I kept wondering why she would breed a pedigree ragdoll (which I assume she will be able to show me all necessary papers for and is on the ‘active’ list) with a non pedigree cat that may or may not be a ragdoll x persian, is there some way by doing that she doesnt have to get the kittens checked properly and registered? I did try to find answers for this before but didnt have much luck until I read a post on this website which talked about mixed ragdolls and backyard breeders. I am now quite worried that the kitten may not be the healthiest or could develop health problems a few years down the line, or they could be overbreeding and just generally not looking after the kittens and mother. Does anyone have any advice? Is there anything I could specifically ask the seller/breeder and can the kitten be tested for the gene that causes heart issues (like blood clots)?
Edit: I forgot to mention she has a kitten contract for me to sign, I thought this was important to add because I thought if she didnt care about the welfare of the kittens why would she want me to sign one?


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## MaineCoonCats0 (Feb 29, 2020)

I don’t know why anyone would intentionally breed a Ragdoll x Persian cat with a pedigree ragdoll

Have you asked if the father is on active register? (Not that it matters now as they have bred a unregistered female with him)Are the parents health tested? (Probably not)

If you are having worries about the breeder then walk away. If you want a ragdoll find a reputable breeder that had their cats health tested and both on active register.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Walk away. Don't support backyard breeding. You can find a lovely moggie (what you are buying from this person) at your local rescue or shelter, or go to a breed rescue, or go to an ethical breeder of true pedigrees, of your chosen breed.


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

MaineCoonCats0 said:


> I don't know why anyone would intentionally breed a Ragdoll x Persian cat with a pedigree ragdoll
> 
> Have you asked if the father is on active register? Are the parents health tested? (Probably not)
> 
> If you are having worries about the breeder then walk away. If you want a ragdoll find a reputable breeder that had their cats health tested and both on active register.


I will definitely ask specifically about the dad being on an active register and about health checks. The only thing I know is that he apparently has papers and is a registered pedigree, I will ask to see the papers too. I had been rather suspicious from the start about why someone would breed them together and not just once as well since its her second litter but the breeder seemed quite concerned about the welfare of the kittens, wanted to know about me, my other pets, keeping the kittens until 12 weeks, getting them vaccinated and having a contract etc so I guess that made me not as worried. Is there any way to find out if the breeder isnt trustworthy? I could ask her why she bred her ragdoll with a non purebred ragdoll.


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

lorilu said:


> Walk away. Don't support backyard breeding. You can find a lovely moggie (what you are buying from this person) at your local rescue or shelter, or go to a breed rescue, or go to an ethical breeder of true pedigrees, of your chosen breed.


Unfortunately I did try the locals shelters and rescues but all the cats specifically need a home without other cats or dogs (I have a dog as well as my cat). I definitely wouldn't support backyard breeding but Im not 100% sure if this is what that is. As far as I know the kittens are healthy and thats what matters most to me really. I have already paid the deposit and I have unfortunately got attached to the kitten so im really unsure as what to do.


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## MaineCoonCats0 (Feb 29, 2020)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> Is there any way to find out if the breeder isnt trustworthy? I could ask her why she bred her ragdoll with a non purebred ragdoll.


I think you should ask that question. 
With breeders like this there isn't much of a way to find out if they are trustworthy or not as they probably don't have a prefix or signed up with any cat clubs. Maybe they have a Facebook page where owners from their previous litter have said what the kittens and the breeder is like?

Byb can also make you sign kitten contacts and ask questions about you.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> Unfortunately I did try the locals shelters and rescues but all the cats specifically need a home without other cats or dogs (I have a dog as well as my cat). *I definitely wouldn't support backyard breeding but Im not 100% sure if this is what that is.* As far as I know the kittens are healthy and thats what matters most to me really. I have already paid the deposit and I have unfortunately got attached to the kitten so im really unsure as what to do.


This is exactly what that is. Ethical reputable breeders don't breed moggies for profit. Backyard breeders do. They breed true breeds for love of the breed, and to improve the breed. They perform the right health tests and proudly tell you so. They provide the perigees of the parents. And a lot more.

Have a look at this thread.: And there are hundreds more like it, in this forum, we see things like this all the time. 
. 
https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...-have-chubby-cheeks-very-small-normal.528851/

I think you could try harder to find a rescue or shelter to accept you but if you don't want to go that route, then go to a reputable ethical breeder of the breed you want. Don't put money in these people's pockets.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> Unfortunately I did try the locals shelters and rescues but all the cats specifically need a home without other cats or dogs (I have a dog as well as my cat). I definitely wouldn't support backyard breeding but Im not 100% sure if this is what that is. As far as I know the kittens are healthy and thats what matters most to me really. I have already paid the deposit and I have unfortunately got attached to the kitten so im really unsure as what to do.


Back yard breeding is exactly what it is. Walk away, hard though it might be.


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

Please walk away. It may take a little longer to find a kitten via a rescue or reputable breeder, but at least you know what you are getting then and don’t risk supporting a byb. They always look and sound reasonable and likeable at the start - that’s how they lure people in. If you want another ragdoll, why not go to a reputable ragdoll breeder?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Definitely walk away from this byb.
It doesn't really matter at this point if the sire is registered active as they've purposely bred him with a non registered girl which isn't allowed. 

Where are you looking for Ragdoll breeders? As there are no shows in the UK at present try the breed club website/s, contact breeders and get on a waiting list. 
Some breeders may have held off breeding due to the current climate over there.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> I will definitely ask specifically about the dad being on an active register and about health checks. The only thing I know is that he apparently has papers and is a registered pedigree, I will ask to see the papers too. I had been rather suspicious from the start about why someone would breed them together and not just once as well since its her second litter but the breeder seemed quite concerned about the welfare of the kittens, wanted to know about me, my other pets, keeping the kittens until 12 weeks, getting them vaccinated and having a contract etc so I guess that made me not as worried. Is there any way to find out if the breeder isnt trustworthy? I could ask her why she bred her ragdoll with a non purebred ragdoll.


It doesn't matter if he is registered active or not, though I doubt it. The mother isn't - she isn't registered - she is a cross-breed. There is no point asking why she bred the Ragdoll with a cross - not a 'non-purebred ragdoll', a cross bred. Of course she is nice to you, of course she seems to be concerned, and if she was genuinely worried about the welfare of the kittens they would be doing at over 14 weeks, fully vaccinated & neutered. 2nd vaccine is at 12 weeks or later, GCCF require breeders to keep kittens for a week after the 2nd vaccination which means the kitten will be in their care if there is a reaction, not a new home.


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> Definitely walk away from this byb.
> It doesn't really matter at this point if the sire is registered active as they've purposely bred him with a non registered girl which isn't allowed.
> 
> Where are you looking for Ragdoll breeders? As there are no shows in the UK at present try the breed club website/s, contact breeders and get on a waiting list.
> Some breeders may have held off breeding due to the current climate over there.


Im in the UK but not mainland, I have just checked the GCCF website and it was able to show me two ragdoll breeders from England and one has a litter, would they sell a kitten to someone who would have to take it home overwater?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> Im in the UK but not mainland, I have just checked the GCCF website and it was able to show me two ragdoll breeders from England and one has a litter, would they sell a kitten to someone who would have to take it home overwater?


Maybe. You'd have to ask. I've had kittens go over to the Isle of Wight, which, admittedly is quite close to me and not a long journey.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> Unfortunately I did try the locals shelters and rescues but all the cats specifically need a home without other cats or dogs (I have a dog as well as my cat). I definitely wouldn't support backyard breeding but Im not 100% sure if this is what that is. As far as I know the kittens are healthy and thats what matters most to me really. I have already paid the deposit and I have unfortunately got attached to the kitten so im really unsure as what to do.


Gosh it would make such a statement if you would ask for your deposit back and tell the breeder exactly why based on what you've learned on this thread. If irresponsible breeders could get a taste of their customer base drying up because people are educating themselves and not supporting irresponsible, unethical breeding practices, it could go a long way towards solving the problem of poor breeding.

I would try rescues again and have them keep you on their list as more cats come in. There is bound to be a glut of kittens and young cats here very soon as the novelty of all the lockdown pets wears off.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

You may be looking at the breeders scheme members?
More breeders are listed on the club websites 
http://www.tbrcc.co.uk
https://www.prbcc.co.uk


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> You may be looking at the breeders scheme members?
> More breeders are listed on the club websites
> http://www.tbrcc.co.uk
> https://www.prbcc.co.uk


Very true. I'd look at the closest breeders to me as you don't want to show or breed, and I'd do my damnedest to visit them before agreeing to buy a kitten. I took a queen to stud once to find dreadful conditions. Registering kittens isn't the only criteria, i suspect there are a few bybs with better conditions than she had. Lockdown makes it much easier for breeders with poor conditions to thrive


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

OrientalSlave said:


> Very true. I'd look at the closest breeders to me as you don't want to show or breed, and I'd do my damnedest to visit them before agreeing to buy a kitten. I took a queen to stud once to find dreadful conditions. Registering kittens isn't the only criteria, i suspect there are a few bybs with better conditions than she had. Lockdown makes it much easier for breeders with poor conditions to thrive





OrientalSlave said:


> Very true. I'd look at the closest breeders to me as you don't want to show or breed, and I'd do my damnedest to visit them before agreeing to buy a kitten. I took a queen to stud once to find dreadful conditions. Registering kittens isn't the only criteria, i suspect there are a few bybs with better conditions than she had. Lockdown makes it much easier for breeders with poor conditions to thrive


How would I know if the breeder is reputable? I clicked on the first link and seen the available kittens from breeders, are all of them trustworthy? I would just be very cautious about getting a kitten from the mainland as I would most likely only be able to see them a few times before taking a kitten home as Id have to get a flight or go by boat


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> How would I know if the breeder is reputable? I clicked on the first link and seen the available kittens from breeders, are all of them trustworthy? I would just be very cautious about getting a kitten from the mainland as I would most likely only be able to see them a few times before taking a kitten home as Id have to get a flight or go by boat


https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/finding-a-pedigree-cat.447723/


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> How would I know if the breeder is reputable? I clicked on the first link and seen the available kittens from breeders, are all of them trustworthy? I would just be very cautious about getting a kitten from the mainland as I would most likely only be able to see them a few times before taking a kitten home as Id have to get a flight or go by boat


Even seeing the breeders home once is far better than buying unseen. 'reputable' here means 'keeps their cats as you would wish them to'. My girls live in the house as pets, that's where they have and rear their kittens. My stud lives out in a stud house as firstly he sprays, and secondly he can be a sex pest, and if a girl is in call and not going to be mated it's easier to get a degree of separation.

I've sent you a PM.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Are breeders - or anyone come to that - allowed to have visitors inside their home currently?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Are breeders - or anyone come to that - allowed to have visitors inside their home currently?


I have been doing visits to the garden - putting kittens in a pen - and the inside of my home can be seen through the patio doors.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Are breeders - or anyone come to that - allowed to have visitors inside their home currently?


OP I think is in Scotland, given it would be quite a trek to visit a breeder, she would do well to wait until she can visit the breeder's home. Also, the club I've done a website for has a disclaimer on the breeder's list page as we haven't checked their homes, they have joined the club, paid their membership and paid to be on the breeder's list page. We had some problems which lead to that, unfortunately the people complaining about a breeder didn't follow it through.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I know a few friends who have done 'kitten visits' in the garden which is ideal! We live in a terraced cottage, however, so not possible for us unfortunately.


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

I am not a breeder, so obviously cannot give you advise from that background. 
However, if I were you, I would express your concerns to the seller. Ask more questions. You definitely need to know if the mother is moving with them. If the answer is no, don't think twice about walking away. If you aren't satisfied answer, walk away. I suppose you also need to firmly decide if you want a Ragdoll or a moggy. If you want a Ragdoll, then it seems you may have to be okay with waiting. 
I have only been a member of this forum for a short time, and I'm sure to upset all the lovely, experienced and helpful breeders on here, but I do think it is awful how BYBs are tarnished with the same brush. A person can care about their cats and their kittens and the homes they go to if they are a moggy. I think as long as someone is responsible (full vaccinations


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

Kept with mum until 13 weeks, properly socialised etc) there is no reason to assume they are a money grabber. I am not saying that there aren't BYBs that don't do things right, in fact I'm sure it is most, but it is unfair to assume that only purebreed breeders care.
Whatever you end up doing, make sure you are comfortable with your decision


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## teddylion (Oct 16, 2019)

I agree with the above. BYBs infuriate me but there's definitely a spectrum. I've visited BYBs (in my days of ignorance) and it was a quick in and out, they literally didn't ask me my name it was just the money they were after. This one at least seems to care somewhat.


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

tishtish said:


> Kept with mum until 13 weeks, properly socialised etc) there is no reason to assume they are a money grabber. I am not saying that there aren't BYBs that don't do things right, in fact I'm sure it is most, but it is unfair to assume that only purebreed breeders care.
> Whatever you end up doing, make sure you are comfortable with your decision


Thanks for your advice on this, I have asked the breeder if the mother came with them and she told me yes and I will also be able to see her if I go to visit the kittens. I felt bad about buying from a BYB because of what I had read online and the replies but I agree there is definitely a 'spectrum', the breeder hasnt given me any reason to think that she doesnt look after her cat or the kittens or that the kittens mother (who belongs to the breeders own mum) isnt looked after. I should be able to have the medical documents for the kitten, I will find out if the father and mother is health checked too and I want to see the house the kittens were born in (the breeders mums house) and obviously if the breeder has a problem with this I would definitely rethink buying the kitten (it is only 7 weeks old). Until I have any reason to really believe the breeder is just after money or neglecting the kittens and parents in any way I will probably be still buying the kitten as the breeder is 'ticking all the boxes' of a trustworthy breeder (everything that the replies have said here) the only thing that is a questionable is why she had bred her ragdoll with a 'cross'


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

There is no reason for moggy breeding, cross breeding, unregistered breeding.

This breeder is using cats that should not be bred together, keeping kittens to 12 weeks doesn't legitimise that.

As happens all too often, the advice will be ignored. And the bybs continue on.


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## MaineCoonCats0 (Feb 29, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> This breeder is using cats that should not be bred together, keeping kittens to 12 weeks doesn't legitimise that.
> 
> As happens all too often, the advice will be ignored. And the bybs continue on.


Such a shame bybs will always be cashing in selling moggies for such high prices and there's always so many too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> the only thing that is a questionable is why she had bred her ragdoll with a 'cross'


But that's the thing, there is no reason to deliberately breed moggies. Rescues and shelters are full of moggies who need homes. Many will be euthanized for lack of homes. Why continue to deliberately add to this problem?

This breeding wasn't an accident (arguably most 'accidental' matings really aren't), it wasn't a cat she found on the street pregnant, this breeder deliberately bred two cats who should not have been breed. I haven't scoured the thread, but are they even health tested? Not a once over by the vet saying 'yeah cat's healthy' but actual DNA tests and diagnostic exams related to congenital conditions?


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> There is no reason for moggy breeding, cross breeding, unregistered breeding.
> 
> This breeder is using cats that should not be bred together, keeping kittens to 12 weeks doesn't legitimise that.
> 
> As happens all too often, the advice will be ignored. And the bybs continue on.


I didnt ignore any advice and I definitely found it all helpful, I have just come to the decision after reading all the advice to continue with the purchase of the kitten that I have already sent the deposit for (Which isnt my main concern really) and I am attached to, when you get to the point when you decide a name for a pet you can safely say youre attached. If I see any evidence of neglect I most likely wont buy the kitten (I will be visiting the kitten in about a week). I also know if I dont buy the kitten, someone else will, just because its been bred from cats that "shouldnt be bred together" doesnt mean the kitten doesnt need love and a home too. I understand why pedigree cats shouldnt be bred with moggies or a different type of pedigree, because the breeding of pedigrees should be to 'better' the breed and someone should be breeding pedigrees because they are passionate about it however im sure, and I have seen posts on here saying this, that there are breeders who only breed purebred, pedigree cats who are registered that neglect the cats and overbreed them, surely thats worse than someone who has bred their pedigree with a cross but looks after the kittens and parents? There will always be someone buying from a BYB, wouldnt it be better to have a way to regulate all breeding and not allow unregulated BYB? The obvious way would be neutering a pedigree kitten before it goes to its new home but for whatever reasons that doesnt seem to always happen, whether it was the breeder not caring and just after money or the breeder did have a contract not allowing the buyer to breed from the kitten or saying the buyer had to neuter the kitten but the buyer ignoring the contract. Isnt it a bit too late to 'stop' a BYB when they have already bred from the cat and had a litter which they go on to sell? What do you think would happen to the kitten that I am buying if I didnt buy it? By me not buying this kitten doesnt stop BYB. If you really want to stop BYB (which I am definitely against in most cases as it probably means neglect and the breeder is greedy for money, and I understand why you are so passionate about not supporting any BYB because its very likely they could be one of those breeders) you should be focusing on trying to have more regulation for pedigree breeders, where do you think the breeder I am buying from got her pedigree? Probably from what could be a registered, 'ethical' breeder.


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> But that's the thing, there is no reason to deliberately breed moggies. Rescues and shelters are full of moggies who need homes. Many will be euthanized for lack of homes. Why continue to deliberately add to this problem?
> 
> This breeding wasn't an accident (arguably most 'accidental' matings really aren't), it wasn't a cat she found on the street pregnant, this breeder deliberately bred two cats who should not have been breed. I haven't scoured the thread, but are they even health tested? Not a once over by the vet saying 'yeah cat's healthy' but actual DNA tests and diagnostic exams related to congenital conditions?


I completely understand your point, and I am going to be asking the breeder if there was any DNA tests and diagnostic exams, but it isnt me who is adding to the problem of lack of home for moggies, I have already tried shelters many times and Id have no problem adopting an older cat however all cats I have found would unfortunately not be suited to my home (as I have two pets and they specifically need a home with no other pets) or they need to come home with a sibling they are bonded with, its the BYB who are breeding them, and not to sound 'shallow' i guess, but I very highly doubt any of the kittens in the litter I am buying from would have trouble finding a new owner any time as they are very pretty kittens and look like ragdolls. In my view, its already too late to stop BYB when they have already got the kittens, it would be far smarter to stop them before they even breed any cats.


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> I completely understand your point, and I am going to be asking the breeder if there was any DNA tests and diagnostic exams, but it isnt me who is adding to the problem of lack of home for moggies, I have already tried shelters many times and Id have no problem adopting an older cat however all cats I have found would unfortunately not be suited to my home (as I have two pets and they specifically need a home with no other pets) or they need to come home with a sibling they are bonded with, its the BYB who are breeding them, and not to sound 'shallow' i guess, but I very highly doubt any of the kittens in the litter I am buying from would have trouble finding a new owner any time as they are very pretty kittens and look like ragdolls. In my view, its already too late to stop BYB when they have already got the kittens, it would be far smarter to stop them before they even breed any cats.


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## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

For me, the fact that the breeder accepted a deposit from you without having met you to show you the litter, their mum or their home screams of someone who is in it for the money.

The fact that the kittens are also being moved is ringing massive alarm bells and that the mum doesn't belong to the person who is selling you the kittens. It sounds very much like they could be breaking the law. Regardless of whether relatives are the other owners or not, it shouldn't be happening.

Have a look at this thread so you know what the paperwork should look like https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/pedigree-papers.454267/


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> There will always be someone buying from a BYB, wouldnt it be better to have a way to regulate all breeding and not allow unregulated BYB? The obvious way would be neutering a pedigree kitten before it goes to its new home but for whatever reasons that doesnt seem to always happ


Just because someone else will line this byb's pockets doesn't mean it has to be you.

Absolutely pets should be neutered before adoption, i have never placed a pet kitten without altering first.
Neutering is compulsory where i live and breeders must be licensed.
I don't see why the UK not having those laws should change someone's basic ethics of only supporting responsible breeding.
Seek out a breeder who does practice ESN, shows their cats, breeds with purpose, registers their kittens...


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> I also know if I dont buy the kitten, someone else will, just because its been bred from cats that "shouldnt be bred together" doesnt mean the kitten doesnt need love and a home too.


This is a flawed argument. If you don't someone else will, so everyone keeps buying and the BYB keeps making a profit and keeps breeding.



Kaiti_Leigh said:


> In my view, its already too late to stop BYB when they have already got the kittens, it would be far smarter to stop them before they even breed any cats.


As above. As long as people like you keep putting money into their pockets, they will keep breeding. It's when people stop buying them, they stop making money, then the breeding stops.

As I have said before, we see posts like yours, and the other thread I asked you to look at, all the time. The heartbreak and suffering is never ending. Because people will make all these justifications and keep supplying these breeders with a hefty profit

And animals don't make profit for the breeder unless the breeder cuts corners. You might want to think about that, too.


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

I really do understand people's position on BYBs. And I really feel the solution is extremely simple - EN should be compulsory for all pedigree kittens leaving on pet contracts. For whatever reason, countless breeders do not do this. Surely a large portion of the blame for BYBs should be placed on the breeders that place kittens in homes intact and thus given rise to the possibility of that kitten being used irresponsibly.
I searched for a cat for 3 months before buying my Birman. I contacted all my local rescues, but no suitable match came up at that time because I have a young child and a dog. Yes I suppose I could have waited longer, but I didn't want to. When looking to buy a kitten, I initially searched for a Ragdoll, as I have previous experience with the breed. Of all the breeders in a 50 mile radius that had kittens at the time, none of them did EN, and the average cost was £850. I know that breeders don't really make a profit, any money received goes straight back into the breeding scheme - food, litter, vet bills, health tests etc - but that is still a lot of money to spend when your intention is to have a loving pet, and not a pet for show or breeding (and I appreciate that kittens that fall under that criteria are even more costly) I'm sure most people who want a loving pet don't care about breed standards but just want a cat that they like the look of. Isn't that why there are more black and black&white cats in rescues than any other colour? And I know many cat lovers who will always pick a moggy over a purebred as they have issues with line breeding (fancy name for inbreeding - which I dedicated part of my degree in Animal Science too so please don't debate that very fine line)
I just feel like there are a huge amount of assumptions being made here. I am sure they come from experience, but presumptions never the less. The only assumption I agree with is that I doubt the parents have been DNA tested (even though some of these tests are fairly cheap and easy to do). As for profit, taking of deposit before meeting in person, why the kittens have been moved, and even a cross was done when there are, presumably, 2 pedigree ragdolls in the family, we don't know the answers. I'm sure the OP will be asking more questions based on the brilliant advice given here, and will make her final decision based on those answers. But don't make her feel bad for giving a cat that needs a home a home. I think stopping BYBs by not buying their kittens will never really work, or at least it would take a very very long time. Initially they will lower selling prices, and if they really are money grabbers, they will cut costs to make sure a profit is made. Eventually those kittens, if unsold, would, hopefully, end up in rescue, where they may not be rehomed because the potential owner has a young child, other pets, or regularly leaves the house for longer than 4 hour periods (I appreciate that probably leans more towards dogs but I think you understand my point) ‍
I truly believe to stop BYBs, breeders supplying them are the ones that need to do it.


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

I also would like to point out that I was sold my pedigree Birman from a GCCF registered breeder, who sold her to me not only intact but actively registered. I know so little about the breed, my first post on this forum was about her mismarking, which, as it turns out makes her, unlikely, suitable for breeding in the first place. The breeder has never responded to any of my communication since - she shows no desire to know about the welfare of her cat. Not very responsible of that breeder, wouldn't you agree?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

tishtish said:


> I also would like to point out that I was sold my pedigree Birman from a GCCF registered breeder, who sold her to me not only intact but actively registered. I know so little about the breed, my first post on this forum was about her mismarking, which, as it turns out makes her, unlikely, suitable for breeding in the first place. The breeder has never responded to any of my communication since - she shows no desire to know about the welfare of her cat. Not very responsible of that breeder, wouldn't you agree?


This is why proper research is constantly advised in these forums. No one has said all breeders of pedigree cats are above reproach, greed, poor ethics, lack of caring, whatever. I am saying that people who deliberately breed mixed breed cats for profit do not have the animals' best interests at heart. They have profit as the main interest.

And we see the results of that in this forum constantly. Much heart break and suffering and expense. Thread after thread after thread.

Yes some pedigree breeders are the same. Shocking lies, false records or papers, underage kittens. But the topic here was about a BYB.


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

lorilu said:


> This is why proper research is constantly advised in these forums. No one has said all breeders of pedigree cats are above reproach, greed, poor ethics, lack of caring, whatever. I am saying that people who deliberately breed mixed breed cats for profit do not have the animals' best interests at heart. They have profit as the main interest.
> 
> And we see the results of that in this forum constantly. Much heart break and suffering and expense. Thread after thread after thread.
> 
> Yes some pedigree breeders are the same. Shocking lies, false records or papers, underage kittens. But the topic here was about a BYB.


Honestly I do understand. A quick search on this forum, and I can see years worth of posts about negative experiences with BYBs. I suppose the point I am trying to make is that OP wants a happy healthy pet, and obviously not looking for a cat for show or breeding, and without further information, you don't know that isn't what she is getting. It is an assumption. An educated guess based on the poor reputation of BYBs. More information is needed.
Many people have posted that OP should not buy to stop encouraging BYBs. Would you all be satisfied if these parents had been health checked for genetic disorders, and where being moved because the seller's mums house had a flood? Would they still be a BYB?
I also suspect that there are many a happy story of wonderful healthy moggies from cross breeding, but they aren't being posted about because they don't need to seek advice.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

tishtish said:


> I also suspect that there are many a happy story of wonder healthy moggies from cross breeding,


Just because some don't suffer, makes the suffering okay? That's just not my point of view.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

@tishtish walls of text are extremely hard to read.



tishtish said:


> Would they still be a BYB?


Of course they would, unless mum is suddenly not a cross breed and they're breeding registered active cats for a purpose.

There are many good rescues out there for those who want a moggy, plenty of "pretty" longhair moggies around. 
Smaller rescues especially who use foster homes for socialisation, keep the kittens until 12 weeks, neuter before adoption.


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

lorilu said:


> Just because some don't suffer, makes the suffering okay? That's just not my point of view.


My view is if you want to stop suffering, lobby for a change in the breeding community. Surely it doesn't even have to be law, just need the GCCF and TICA to make EN a rule rather than advisory. Wouldn't that have a impact greater?


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> @tishtish walls of text are extremely hard to read


Sorry, I tend to get lost in what I'm saying. Pretty sure that's why I would always run out of time during English exams lol


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

spotty cats said:


> @tishtish walls of text are extremely hard to read.
> 
> Of course they would, unless mum is suddenly not a cross breed and they're breeding registered active cats for a purpose.
> 
> ...


So can I assume that until we live in a world where moggies don't overflow at rescue centres, then all non registered breeders are bad, no matter how responsible they have been in the care of their animals and finding suitable homes for any offspring? 
Then I am wrong. There does need to be a law - for all kittens, regardless of breed, to be neutered before being rehomed. Slapping £1000 fines on people not adhering would soon sort out the money grabbers. And then there would need to be a regulated breeding programme for moggies as well for those who don't want a purebred. 
If only it was that simple


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

I have some bad news, today I asked the breeder if we could facetime so I could see the kittens and I wanted to ask her all the questions and I thought it would be better to ask her over the phone so I could get her first response, she told me she wasnt able to do that today but could on friday because she is staying at her mums house and coming back to her own house on friday (for reasons im unaware of) This was a big red flag as I was very concerned as to why she moved the kittens to her home but then left them again to go to her mums house, she had told me before that she moved them because her mum wasnt able to look after them as she was busy. I told her my concerns about this and she told me her mum was unwell (I assume this was her reason for staying at her mums house), she also said that she had been making sure the kittens were settling in and they had been doing ok, now heres the next red flag that concerned me, she told me the kittens had been getting on with “her kittens” too, I havent asked her what she meant but from what that sounds like is that she has other kittens possibly apart from the litter im buying from. I did notice in a picture there were 9 kittens eating and the available kittens I had seen were just 4 or 5 of them, I thought before that maybe other people had reserved those kittens before I had even seen them. She told me she would send back the deposit if I wanted and I sent her my details again and I expect she is sending it back right now, her only response to me sending my details was “thanks”. I am quite annoyed and frustrated about this, I was so hopeful that she would answer all the questions but it has just turned out like nothing happened, just now she has sent back “Refunded, take care I hope you find the kitten you are looking for”. Is there anything I can do about this? I wasnt even able to find out anything else about the health of the kittens or the parents and now im very concerned that the reason the kittens were moved and I wasnt going to be able to see her mums house was because she didnt want me to see something there (like other cats they are keeping for breeding or something) I feel awful knowing that she could be neglecting other cats or she has more litters ready to keep selling. I also looked up her address and it brought me to flats.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

@Kaiti_Leigh if you want a ragdoll please go onto the GCCF and the Ragdoll cat clubs websites and seek a breeder there, and be prepared to wait!!
If you are not concerned about it being a kitten, then look at the rescue groups most pedigree cat clubs run as you may find a nice cat waiting for you there. 
If however you don't want a pedigree kitten/cat contract your local rescue centres as you are bound to find a nice cat there.

There are a number of reasons the kittens could have been moved to the daughter's house. Maybe the mother has cancer and has just undergone chemo, maybe she is shielding and cannot have all and sundry coming to the house to look at or collect kittens. Or maybe they are just in it for the money.

You've got your refund, so now go and seek your new pet once you've decided what it is you actually want.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> I have some bad news, today I asked the breeder if we could facetime so I could see the kittens and I wanted to ask her all the questions and I thought it would be better to ask her over the phone so I could get her first response, she told me she wasnt able to do that today but could on friday because she is staying at her mums house and coming back to her own house on friday (for reasons im unaware of) This was a big red flag as I was very concerned as to why she moved the kittens to her home but then left them again to go to her mums house, she had told me before that she moved them because her mum wasnt able to look after them as she was busy. I told her my concerns about this and she told me her mum was unwell (I assume this was her reason for staying at her mums house), she also said that she had been making sure the kittens were settling in and they had been doing ok, now heres the next red flag that concerned me, she told me the kittens had been getting on with "her kittens" too, I havent asked her what she meant but from what that sounds like is that she has other kittens possibly apart from the litter im buying from. I did notice in a picture there were 9 kittens eating and the available kittens I had seen were just 4 or 5 of them, I thought before that maybe other people had reserved those kittens before I had even seen them. She told me she would send back the deposit if I wanted and I sent her my details again and I expect she is sending it back right now, her only response to me sending my details was "thanks". I am quite annoyed and frustrated about this, I was so hopeful that she would answer all the questions but it has just turned out like nothing happened, just now she has sent back "Refunded, take care I hope you find the kitten you are looking for". Is there anything I can do about this? I wasnt even able to find out anything else about the health of the kittens or the parents and now im very concerned that the reason the kittens were moved and I wasnt going to be able to see her mums house was because she didnt want me to see something there (like other cats they are keeping for breeding or something) I feel awful knowing that she could be neglecting other cats or she has more litters ready to keep selling. I also looked up her address and it brought me to flats.


Anything you can do about it? I'm sorry, I don't understand?

The breeder has instantly returned your money and has been ever so polite.

She lives in a flat..and?


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

gskinner123 said:


> Anything you can do about it? I'm sorry, I don't understand?
> 
> The breeder has instantly returned your money and has been ever so polite.
> 
> She lives in a flat..and?


Have you read the other posts on this thread? If you havent please do and hopefully it will make more sense. I also said the address showed a flat because I was concerned that wasnt her address at all.


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## Kaiti_Leigh (Jul 1, 2020)

gskinner123 said:


> Anything you can do about it? I'm sorry, I don't understand?
> 
> The breeder has instantly returned your money and has been ever so polite.
> 
> She lives in a flat..and?


Also, as I said before in a different reply, Im not concerned about the money at all, I didnt even ask for a refund and I had just asked her about my concerns for the kittens (these have already been talked about in this thread) , but the breeder I feel has just 'got out' of any questions even if it was polite.


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## MaineCoonCats0 (Feb 29, 2020)

Don't think there's much you can do about it now. You've got your deposit back, @Tigermoon has given good advice about what to do now.


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## tishtish (May 18, 2020)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> I have some bad news, today I asked the breeder if we could facetime so I could see the kittens and I wanted to ask her all the questions and I thought it would be better to ask her over the phone so I could get her first response, she told me she wasnt able to do that today but could on friday because she is staying at her mums house and coming back to her own house on friday (for reasons im unaware of) This was a big red flag as I was very concerned as to why she moved the kittens to her home but then left them again to go to her mums house, she had told me before that she moved them because her mum wasnt able to look after them as she was busy. I told her my concerns about this and she told me her mum was unwell (I assume this was her reason for staying at her mums house), she also said that she had been making sure the kittens were settling in and they had been doing ok, now heres the next red flag that concerned me, she told me the kittens had been getting on with "her kittens" too, I havent asked her what she meant but from what that sounds like is that she has other kittens possibly apart from the litter im buying from. I did notice in a picture there were 9 kittens eating and the available kittens I had seen were just 4 or 5 of them, I thought before that maybe other people had reserved those kittens before I had even seen them. She told me she would send back the deposit if I wanted and I sent her my details again and I expect she is sending it back right now, her only response to me sending my details was "thanks". I am quite annoyed and frustrated about this, I was so hopeful that she would answer all the questions but it has just turned out like nothing happened, just now she has sent back "Refunded, take care I hope you find the kitten you are looking for". Is there anything I can do about this? I wasnt even able to find out anything else about the health of the kittens or the parents and now im very concerned that the reason the kittens were moved and I wasnt going to be able to see her mums house was because she didnt want me to see something there (like other cats they are keeping for breeding or something) I feel awful knowing that she could be neglecting other cats or she has more litters ready to keep selling. I also looked up her address and it brought me to flats.


Actually I wish to edit my previous response - I think I may have written in haste and have reread your latest comments.

I do understand why you may feel concerns because you have been left with unanswered questions. You expressed concerns and rather than receive an answer, you received a refund. My understanding is that refunds are generally deemed non-refundable (unless the kitten has an unforeseen health condition), so if she really is just a money grabber, you could have held on to it. Especially as you didn't even ask for it. Now I am sure that she suspects that she will have little trouble finding a new home, and therefore new deposit and money, for this kitten, but still, I think refunding you shows some signs of a genuine person. Moving the kittens because of the potential poor health of the primary person in charge of them is understandable, especially given the current climate. And even her returning to her mother's home to help her. I assume you think that the kittens have been left unattended? I do hope this isn't the case, but no one can be around all the time. And as for the other litter, I wouldn't necessarily see that as a red flag. Reputable breeders will often have more than one litter at a time, albeit a little staggered. But I am sure the surprise of the existence of another litter was a little shocking. And lastly, not sure why you believe that she may not live where you think she did? There is no reason why kittens cannot be raised in a flat. Was the address you were originally given for her house or her mother's?

Now, do I think she is neglecting these kittens? I don't think so - at least not to the extent in which you could ask a third party, i.e. RSCPA, to intervene. She may just not be as attentive as some breeders may be. Overall, yes this seller is a BYB. You knew that already. But I still think, if there is a scale of things, she still, to me, appears to be one of the better ones, who didn't keep the extra cash when given the opportunity, is fully vaccinating the kittens and keeping far longer than 99% of BYB adverts you seen on Pets4Homes.

As hard as it may be, you will have to just close the door on this, and move on to find a more suitable cat for you. Be that purebreed or moggie. I hope you found your perfect match


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Kaiti_Leigh said:


> Have you read the other posts on this thread? If you havent please do and hopefully it will make more sense. I also said the address showed a flat because I was concerned that wasnt her address at all.


You have your money back and in a prompt and polite fashion. I am absolutely sure it is not the case, but it reads like you are looking for confrontation after the event.

Why would the breeder feel it necessary to answer your questions now that you aren't going ahead with having one of her kittens?

I am aware that I am sounding critical but that isn't my intention; I just cannot see why you would want to invest any more time and emotion on what happened


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