# Could she be pregnant?



## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Can I just start by saying my dog is booked in the vets at teatime tonight but after a morning googling I thought putting my concerns to a forum may settle me somewhat whilst I'm waiting.

My girl is 16 months old, very healthy active dog who is very much loved.
I've noticed over the past maybe 3 weeks she has started to show alot more interest in food, even the occasional begging when we are eating which she has never ever done before and something she has been trained not to do. I've put this down to her age, maturing and maybe just needing a little bit more than she was getting nutrition wise.
Fast forward to the end of last week and I started to notice her weight seemed to be increasing, not a stark gain but enough to notice when she was having her coat on for walking mainly.
Again not overly concerned I decided just to monitor her and as there were no obvious issues didn't read too much into it.
Monday and Tuesday this week she's started to sleep alot more than normal and I'm certain has become rounder- literally over night and these nipples have swollen and appeared from nowhere!
I called the vets yesterday morning, expressed my concerns and as she was well in herself (eating, toileting etc)told me not to stress and they would check her over this evening.
I accepted that and thought nothing more of it.
So I must start by saying I know nothing with regards to dog pregnancy and I may be way out here but I've been googling and I'm getting the exact same conclusion every single time....pregnancy or a phantom pregnancy!
She most certainly has not been mated, she is walked twice daily by my husband and I, never let off the lead, it would have to have been an immaculate conception.
Of course I'm worried, I guess worried for any outcome because she isn't herself today, quite lethargic but the thought of her being pregnant fills me with dread!
The only place a pregnancy could at all have been possible was at the groomers but she was at the very end of her season when she went, the groomer was very much aware she was at the end of her season and I'm fairly certain wouldn't have allowed anything to happen if indeed it was even possible once the season was over?
I guess I'm wanting you all to say is no, it isn't at all possible and I'm worrying unnecessarily, but is it?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

If anything it is probably a phantom have you asked the groomer if anything could have happened I would be very disappointed if that was possible? There is a chance of pregnancy if she was mated there I believe even at the end of her season @Rafa may be able to answe that one. If on the off chance she is pregnant you can get an injection to terminate the pregnancy rather than put her through it at such a young age. Do chat with your vet I hope it works out for you.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

No I haven't made any contact with the groomer yet, thought it was best I knew what/if anything was happening first before doing so.
The groomers is the only possible explanation IF that was to be the case but it was January when she was there and that would make her in the later stages of pregnancy to my very limited knowledge, would it not be too late for any kind of termination, also if she is potentially that far along would visually things be much more obvious? I mean termination would be absolutely my first choice, but I have to put aside my feelings and consider my dog, what would be the implications of terminating in late pregnancy?
I'm just trying to arm my with as much advice/opinions/knowledge before the appointment, then should the unlikely be confirmed I am atleast able to ask any relevant questions and make the best possible decisions in the circumstance.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Yes maybe to late you might be better off in the breeding section @SusieRainbow can you help ? My groomers only ever has one dog at a time does she use crates ? What breed is your girl ?


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

There's crates in there so I'm assuming so, but I can't confirm for certain especially given the current situation because it's pick up and drop off from my car, but when we very first went there were definitely crates in the grooming area. 
It's at her home so although maybe the one dog rule applies there too, she does have her own dogs.
She is a cockapoo.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Confirmed she is pregnant, at this stage there's not really very much that can safely be done in terms of termination, she's just too far along and the risks totally outweigh the benefits unfortunately. Blood loss been a big factor and the fact she will either have to give birth or have a cesarean once the drugs are given and neither is preferable to her been allowed to carry on to term and give birth. Far too many risks involved now according to the vet not to mention the effect on my poor dogs mental wellbeing :-(.
So there we are, she was given an ultrasound but numbers weren't really possible at this stage but there's definitely more than one. I have the option of an xray should I wish.
This is not a position I ever thought I would be in, but I am and I now must do the right thing. Tomorrow my first job is to speak with someone alot more knowledgeable than me, hopefully someone who can walk me through this and potentially be there for the birth, my first port of call will be her breeder and work from there.
Then I must speak with the groomers and see where we go from here, I am obviously furious/upset/shocked but it's done and hopefully lessons will be learnt including me getting her done as soon as all this is over.
I mean I don't even know what she's mated with so now idea re size etc, hoping the groomer will be able to shed some light and atleast be honest with me.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can help. The breeder is a good idea it is very concerning you do not know the size of the dog who mated. Poor girl will they book her in for a c section or just wait and see?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

It is essential you establish by what Breed of dog she was mated.

If it was a dog much bigger than your bitch, then your Vet needs to know, as she could well need a C Section to deliver her pups.

When is she due? When was she mated?


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

That's absolutely shocking if it happened at the groomers and definitely needs to be addressed.
Even if she wasnt in season, letting two strange dogs closely interact in a potentially stressful situation like that (clearly unsupervised!) is not ok in any way.
Is it possible a dog got into - and out of - your garden or similar to mate her?
What a horrible situation.

Might it be worth contacting other vets in the area to see if an emergency spay is possible?
Depending on the size of the male, she may need a c-section anyways, so that'd be surgery risk as well as the physical and mental stress of raising a litter on her and you, the financial strain of birth and raising a litter... plus bringing more random potentially unsound dogs into the world for no reason.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

She was "mated" 30th January- well that's the day she went to be groomed and the vet says she does appear physically about 7 weeks pregnant which is why he was very reluctant to even consider termination. He says the pup he focused on with the ultrasound didn't appear particularly large, but I'm not sure what relevance that has with regards to full term size?
Anyway I have decided instead of contacting the groomer I'm going to go to her house, I think that way there's less chance of her ignoring or fobbing me off and I should hopefully get some truthful answers rather than her having an opportunity to concoct a story? I mean not for one minute am I suggesting this would be the case but I need quick truthful answers not a drawn out version.
Is this the right decision?


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

BlueJay said:


> That's absolutely shocking if it happened at the groomers and definitely needs to be addressed.
> Even if she wasnt in season, letting two strange dogs closely interact in a potentially stressful situation like that (clearly unsupervised!) is not ok in any way.
> Is it possible a dog got into - and out of - your garden or similar to mate her?
> What a horrible situation.
> ...


There's absolutely zero chance a dog has got into my garden, it's a 6ft fenced and gated detached property and she is never left unsupervised outside.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Yes.

You need to know what dog mated her.



Saraemily said:


> He says the pup he focused on with the ultrasound didn't appear particularly large, but I'm not sure what relevance that has


It's relevant because singleton pups are usually big at full term and normal delivery isn't possible. Your Vet would be able to see, at this stage, whether the pup would be too big.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> If anything it is probably a phantom have you asked the groomer if anything could have happened I would be very disappointed if that was possible? There is a chance of pregnancy if she was mated there I believe even at the end of her season @Rafa may be able to answe that one. If on the off chance she is pregnant you can get an injection to terminate the pregnancy rather than put her through it at such a young age. Do chat with your vet I hope it works out for you.





Saraemily said:


> She was "mated" 30th January- well that's the day she went to be groomed and the vet says she does appear physically about 7 weeks pregnant which is why he was very reluctant to even consider termination. He says the pup he focused on with the ultrasound didn't appear particularly large, but I'm not sure what relevance that has with regards to full term size?
> Anyway I have decided instead of contacting the groomer I'm going to go to her house, I think that way there's less chance of her ignoring or fobbing me off and I should hopefully get some truthful answers rather than her having an opportunity to concoct a story? I mean not for one minute am I suggesting this would be the case but I need quick truthful answers not a drawn out version.
> Is this the right decision?


I'm not sure to be honest, but then I'm a bit scared of confrontation. If you have an email adress you could use that, it's important to have a record of your conversations.
You could also contact Doglaw ( Trevor Cooper) and find out what financial help should be expected from her.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=trevor+cooper+dog+law
What a shockng thing to happen!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Saraemily said:


> She was "mated" 30th January- well that's the day she went to be groomed and the vet says she does appear physically about 7 weeks pregnant which is why he was very reluctant to even consider termination. He says the pup he focused on with the ultrasound didn't appear particularly large, but I'm not sure what relevance that has with regards to full term size?
> Anyway I have decided instead of contacting the groomer I'm going to go to her house, I think that way there's less chance of her ignoring or fobbing me off and I should hopefully get some truthful answers rather than her having an opportunity to concoct a story? I mean not for one minute am I suggesting this would be the case but I need quick truthful answers not a drawn out version.
> Is this the right decision?


I wouldnt personally go to her house, especially during covid times. It could potentially be seen as something like harassment or intimidation, if she decides to take it down that route. Having a evidence of communication for everything (email, texts, physical letters etc) would benefit if you decide to take things further.

Possibly before barreling in giving all the information to her right off, you could ask to see photos of the setup she has, and possibly a list of the other dogs she had in that day? Or what dogs she owns herself?
That way, if she is the type to concoct a story, she wouldn't feel the need to go on the defensive right out if she's accused of allowing a mating.... if that makes sense.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I would be absolutely furious with anyone who betrayed my trust & allowed something so irresponsible to happen to a dog I'd entrusted to them, who is also very young to be going through pregnancy & rearing a litter.

I'd not confront them at home but you need to contact them as soon as possible, they had a duty of care to your dog & have let you & her down very badly.


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## Hammystar (Jun 19, 2019)

BlueJay said:


> Possibly before barreling in giving all the information to her right off, you could ask to see photos of the setup she has, and possibly a list of the other dogs she had in that day? Or what dogs she owns herself?
> That way, if she is the type to concoct a story, she wouldn't feel the need to go on the defensive right out if she's accused of allowing a mating.... if that makes sense.


I agree. You don't want to be arrested for harassment by going to her address. Maybe a white lie at your end first? Make another appointment but ask her who she has in as your dog has developed an aversion to another breed. Ask what breeds she has interacted with previously and what breed the groomer owns. Ask if she saw any strange behaviour between them on the last occasion. At this stage you need information on who the Daddy is to ensure the safety of your girl during pregnancy. When you have that info you can let her have it!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Of course, if this person knows your bitch was mated in her salon, she's likely to deny it and there really will be little you can do. You have no proof.

It's a difficult situation which you may have to simply accept.

Your bitch must have been fertile and receptive when she went in to be groomed, so this Groomer could say it's your responsibility.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Thank you all, that all makes perfect sense. To be clear I'm not a confrontational type at all, I'm very easy going and not a bad bone in my body, I'm just wanting to try and do what's best with as little stress as possible.
I'm not wanting money, all I want is her to accept what's clearly happened, apologise and hopefully learn a very valuable lesson.
I will send an email over to her in the morning, an informal one just ask her set up and procedures and about her own dogs to begin with then take it from there.
I appreciate all your words of wisdom and I think for now I should really try and switch off and regroup.
Tomorrow is a new and and hopefully things won't seem quite so bad in the morning.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Rafa said:


> Of course, if this person knows your bitch was mated in her salon, she's likely to deny it and there really will be little you can do. You have no proof.
> 
> It's a difficult situation which you may have to simply accept.
> 
> Your bitch must have been fertile and receptive when she went in to be groomed, so this Groomer could say it's your responsibility.


She was at least 21 days into her season and that's from the first day I noticed blood so she could potentially have been more.
It was a welfare groom as she has sensitive skin and the longer her coat gets the more uncomfortable she becomes so I waited as long as possible into her season before taking her.
Do I regret it now, of course I do but I nevet for one minute expected this!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Some bitches will be receptive as late as 21 days. Mine never were, but it can happen.

Hopefully, the Groomer will co-operate with you, but I doubt it.

If your bitch was mated in her Salon, then the correct thing to do would have been to tell you,

It may be possible she wasn't aware but, either way, she was irresponsible.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Well for sure she never told me anything or I wouldn't find myself in this very unfortunate situation today.
It is a case of her word against mine, I know that and anyone who knows me personally will know how passionate I am about my animals and that I would never do anything to jeopardise their health. The only mistake I've made here is not getting her spayed earlier, but honestly it just wasn't a priority. She's only young and the past year has been a difficult one for us and it just fell to the bottom of the list, boy how I regret that now.
My priority is to firstly find out what male dogs she owns and which could possibly have mated with her and once I have that information I can relax slightly. I agree with you in that I'm doubtful she will cooperate as this is her business at stake (which I'm not for one minute considering dragging through the mud but she doesn't know that) and it's very easy for her to deny given it's her word against mine.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Then, it may be a case of focusing on taking care of your bitch.

If you count 63 days from the date she went to be groomed, that is her due date.

You will need to set up a whelping box for her and, are you working from home right now, as she will need to be supervised for a couple of weeks after she delivers?


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

A whelping box straight away?
Gosh I've alot to learn.
The vet said Easter weekend would be her due date, the 3rd April was what his computer generated but I will count on myself to be certain.
I am going to hopefully speak with someone tomorrow with regards to helping me through this. I spoke with the breeder I bought my girl off earlier and although she said she's happy to share her knowledge and experiences with me I really need to find someone that does this kind of thing as a profession and to seek out whelping services in my area. She also recommended I buy a book called "the book of the bitch" which I will order tomorrow.
Yes thankfully I am at home so no concerns there.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

The Book of the Bitch would be very useful indeed.

I have never heard of or known a 'professional whelper', but I wouldn't worry about that.

The date your Vet suggested sounds about right.

It is a good idea to have your whelping box in place soon, so that your bitch can become accustomed to seeing it, but don't expect her to want to be in it yet.

What's her name?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Saraemily said:


> She was at least 21 days into her season and that's from the first day I noticed blood so she could potentially have been more.
> It was a welfare groom as she has sensitive skin and the longer her coat gets the more uncomfortable she becomes so I waited as long as possible into her season before taking her.
> Do I regret it now, of course I do but I nevet for one minute expected this!


Did you tell the groomer she was in season? Being a cat person I've no idea how long it takes dogs to mate, with some male cats blink and you can miss the actual mating


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Rafa said:


> The Book of the Bitch would be very useful indeed.
> 
> I have never heard of or known a 'professional whelper', but I wouldn't worry about that.
> 
> ...


I have come across a lady in my area that markets herself as providing whelping services? So I need to read a little more into that.
Her name is Effie.
I have ordered the book so hopefully that will arrive shortly.
Yes the groomer was aware she was at the end of her season, infact I would say finished. There was no visible blood for about a week before she went but I'm aware the blood doesn't show throughout the entire season so she could technically still have been 'in season'


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## Blacky90 (Feb 12, 2021)

If you are planning on getting her spayed anyway I would try and find a vet who will spay her now. There is a chance she may need a c section anyway. Also not knowing the breed of the male is troublesome both because of possible size discrepancy, health issues, etc. If the pups are born you then have the problem of trying to find homes for the pups. At the moment the only information you could give the prospective new owners is that the bitch is a small mixed breed and that the sire is a complete unknown. Good luck with whatever you do.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blacky90 said:


> If you are planning on getting her spayed anyway I would try and find a vet who will spay her now.


I think it highly unlikely any Vet would spay a bitch so far advanced in pregnancy, unless in an emergency.


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## Blacky90 (Feb 12, 2021)

Some vets will but I know it differs from place to place and vet to vet. I've had plenty of rescues and strays that were pregnant and the vet spayed them and I never had a problem. Obviously before the surgery there was no way to know how far along they were exactly.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

She has 2 males, a Springer spaniel and an old Jack Russell, I didn't wade straight in with the issue but eventually explained and as I suspected immediately she went on the defensive and said it just was not possible. The area is fully covered by cctv so even when for any reason she needs to leave a dog unsupervised they are constantly monitored (unless she's constantly watching a screen whilst leaving the grooming area then technically they aren't constantly monitored but hey). I asked about the cctv but it is deleted on a 4 weekly cycle as it's constantly recording.
So I now know the breeds, I hoped to speak to the vet today but he hasn't returned my call so I will ring again in the morning.
The vet (one I've used for many years and have no reason to question his judgement) said spaying at this late stage just wasn't an option and after him explaining his reasoning I was definitely in agreement. The size of the male would determine the next stage and is why I called today to discuss that. Neither seem overly large in my opinion but obviously I'm happy to be corrected.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blacky90 said:


> Some vets will but I know it differs from place to place and vet to vet. I've had plenty of rescues and strays that were pregnant and the vet spayed them and I never had a problem. Obviously before the surgery there was no way to know how far along they were exactly.


From the vet side, they would be essentially delivering live puppies and euthanizing them. No vet wants to do that 
Sometimes in necessary in shelter settings, but it's a horrible thing to have to do.


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## Blacky90 (Feb 12, 2021)

I understand that but I think it is fairer to dogs that are already in the world. I hate seeing a rescue or shelter where they have a couple of 2-3 month old pups that might stand an okay chance of being adopted but people see a pregnant female and decide they want a pup from that dog. In the end all the new pups get adopted, the mother usually doesn't and the old pups are now 4-5 months old and not as "desirable" as when they were younger.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

This is not a shelter dog.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blacky90 said:


> I understand that but I think it is fairer to dogs that are already in the world. I hate seeing a rescue or shelter where they have a couple of 2-3 month old pups that might stand an okay chance of being adopted but people see a pregnant female and decide they want a pup from that dog. In the end all the new pups get adopted, the mother usually doesn't and the old pups are now 4-5 months old and not as "desirable" as when they were younger.


This isn't relevant.

This is someone's pet and she's, apparently, carrying one pup.

I see no need whatsoever to consider spaying her, even if it is an option.


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## Blacky90 (Feb 12, 2021)

Sorry. Didn't realise there was just the one.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Saraemily said:


> The only mistake I've made here is not getting her spayed earlier, but honestly it just wasn't a priority. She's only young and the past year has been a difficult one for us and it just fell to the bottom of the list, boy how I regret that now.


I wouldn't beat yourself up about that, spaying her before 18 months or so isn't generally seen as best practise as it can affect a dog's physical growth and mental maturation. So quite reasonable not to until a bit older.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Just to be clear, from palpation and the ultrasound the vet said he was sure there was more than one puppy but did only focus on the one for the purpose of the ultrasound.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Saraemily said:


> A whelping box straight away?
> Gosh I've alot to learn


You don't have to buy one, or get anything fancy.
I made mine from a big cardboard box, punched holes through the sides to run 'pig rails' through - those give the pups somewhere to escape to if the bitch tries to lie down so they don't get squashed. I reinforced the corners with battening, and cut the front down so my bitch could step in and out but pups couldn't roll or climb over. I added a lid to make it more den-like, that I could lift up to make cleaning easier. There was a sheet of plastic under it, to save the carpet, and lots of vet bedding. Towels would do.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

@Blacky90:


Saraemily said:


> but there's definitely more than one


I think you're right; there's more than one.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

I've done lots of research on whelping boxes, I have ordered vet bed and other essentials.
The few that have suggested spaying, it isn't something I'm even considering now. I just don't feel it is the right thing to do, yes there is potential for me to be bringing un sound puppies into the world and that's the risk I'm going to take, I just cannot firstly put my girl through it, the risks involved at such a late stage not to mention the hormonal crash when she's come this far and has nothing. Also the thought of live pups being born and then euthanized just isn't something I can bare to contemplate.
If I have to keep all the puppies myself then so be it. Should they be given a clean bill of health then they will be homed with honesty.
I have accepted the situation and now my focus is doing everything I can to ensure the health of Effie and her babies.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Saraemily said:


> I've done lots of research on whelping boxes, I have ordered vet bed and other essentials.
> The few that have suggested spaying, it isn't something I'm even considering now. I just don't feel it is the right thing to do, yes there is potential for me to be bringing un sound puppies into the world and that's the risk I'm going to take, I just cannot firstly put my girl through it, the risks involved at such a late stage not to mention the hormonal crash when she's come this far and has nothing. Also the thought of live pups being born and then euthanized just isn't something I can bare to contemplate.
> If I have to keep all the puppies myself then so be it. Should they be given a clean bill of health then they will be homed with honesty.
> I have accepted the situation and now my focus is doing everything I can to ensure the health of Effie and her babies.


Good luck do let us know how she gets on.


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## Blacky90 (Feb 12, 2021)

Best of luck with everything. A really small litter is what you need now.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Blacky90 said:


> Best of luck with everything. A really small litter is what you need now.


Absolutely, a small litter is the best I can wish for right now.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> Good luck do let us know how she gets on.


Oh without a doubt, I will likely need lots of support and guidance from you lovely people as we get nearer the time. I have read lots but I don't think you can beat real life experiences.
I'm just concerned I'm going to miss the signs although lots of places say you will know when it's time.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Saraemily said:


> Oh without a doubt, I will likely need lots of support and guidance from you lovely people as we get nearer the time


I honestly take my hat off to you for being so amazing and accepting what has happened and obviously putting your dog's welfare above your own predicament. Assuming that this happened at the groomer's which seems pretty much 100% certain, when is her due date (you likely told us somewhere but I missed it)? I had a feeling that she would deny all knowledge. Anyway, stay around as there are many people who can give you great advice. I wish you and your girl well.


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## Blacky90 (Feb 12, 2021)

Calvine said:


> when is her due date (you likely told us somewhere but I missed it)?


Was just wondering that. I imagine if you could get an xray so that you would know exactly what to expect and also not be wondering if there are more to come it would take some worry of you.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Calvine said:


> I honestly take my hat off to you for being so amazing and accepting what has happened and obviously putting your dog's welfare above your own predicament. Assuming that this happened at the groomer's which seems pretty much 100% certain, when is her due date (you likely told us somewhere but I missed it)? I had a feeling that she would deny all knowledge. Anyway, stay around as there are many people who can give you great advice. I wish you and your girl well.


That's very kind of you to say, thank you. I have to admit it's a situation I never in my wildest dreams thought I would find myself in, infact initially it was the stuff of nightmares and I absolutely tore myself to shreds but I soon realised that this isn't about me and my feelings, it's about Effie and doing what's right for her.
We have been through an awful lot together and she has always been by my side so it's now my turn to be beside hers.
The vet estimated she was due Easter weekend, which I think after counting myself is about right. 63 days will be Saturday 3rd April, which is going by the date she was at the groomers.
I read that things can happen around that time though, 58-65 days so obviously I will be prepared before that weekend just incase.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

As for the xray, it was offered as an option by the vet but he said it certainly wasn't a necessity. Is this the done thing, something you would reccomend?
I just worry about the effects of an xray, I'm assuming she would be sedated or put to sleep? And the radiation?
So many things to take into consideration isn't there, I just don't want to do the wrong thing.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think the xray would be for your peace of mind rather than for the dog's wellbeing. Personally, now you are so close, I do not think I would do it but if you are fretting about litter size it would at least confirm things a bit for you.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Saraemily said:


> I've done lots of research on whelping boxes, I have ordered vet bed and other essentials.
> The few that have suggested spaying, it isn't something I'm even considering now. I just don't feel it is the right thing to do, yes there is potential for me to be bringing un sound puppies into the world and that's the risk I'm going to take, I just cannot firstly put my girl through it, the risks involved at such a late stage not to mention the hormonal crash when she's come this far and has nothing. Also the thought of live pups being born and then euthanized just isn't something I can bare to contemplate.
> If I have to keep all the puppies myself then so be it. Should they be given a clean bill of health then they will be homed with honesty.
> I have accepted the situation and now my focus is doing everything I can to ensure the health of Effie and her babies.


Well done. I do not know where the poster lives that seems to think spaying is a good option but I truly do not think any ethical vet in this country would consider it and the risk to the bitch would be great too. I was once assisting spaying a cat that slipped through our net of checking on pregnancy before doing it. The poor thing had a great number of foetuses in different stages of reabsorption. Some were almost full term and some were tiny embryos and all sizes in between. It was heartbreaking to do but in that case was certainly better for all concerned. Usually though if a cat felt as though there were kittens inside it was sent home to have them and certainly no pregnant bitch would have been considered.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Saraemily said:


> I'm just concerned I'm going to miss the signs although lots of places say you will know when it's time


It really is blindingly obvious; at least it was for me. There will be nesting behaviour - digging in the bed and panting. This will likely go on for a few hours before she starts trying to push, with it being a first litter. Have you got the 'book of the bitch' on order? That will take you through the process. Buy some lubrication gel from the chemists, it will help with the delivery, and latex gloves.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

It's a bit late now, but switch her to a good quality puppy food (today) and keep her on that through the rest of the pregnancy and through lactation. And I mean a good one, not a supermarket brand. 
Also get a bottle of Panacur 10% wormer liquid, and dose the mum as per the instructions until 2 days after pups are born. Normally, dogs have latent roundworms in the body,and the hormonal change in pregnancy causes them to move into the blood stream and into the puppy foetuses via the placenta. Panacur prevents this, and is the only product licensed in the UK for this purpose. Again, it's late to start this but the sooner the better.
You should be able to get both at Pets at Home, which is open Sundays.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

I have the book of the bitch, I ordered it immediately and came the next day. Very informative I must say albeit a little bit full on when weren't prepared for any of this.
I have KY jelly (water based) and gloves along with other bits necessary for whelping that was advised to buy. I haven't yet bought formula or bottles, are these necessary and if so any recommendations?
Her new food arrived yesterday, it wasnt available in store, I had to order online so I'm slowly changing her over to that - Royal Canin mother & baby starter I went for, hope that's ok? It was a mind field and that seemed like the most appropriate for her need.
I have panacur oral suspension at home because that's that I use anyway so I will get the instruction leaflet out and have a read up on that, thank you for the advice.
With regards to the xray, Effie has never been a fan of the car and gets very upset, I really don't want to put any unnecessary stress on her at this stage unless absolutely necessary so I'm thinking I will shelve the xray idea for now.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

I should also add that she appears to have milky fluid in her nipples that was actively coming out whilst having gentle belly rubs this morning which I'm assuming is a good sign, does that lessen the need for formula or is it something you should have anyway?
I feel like I have so many things I need to ask, some of which is probably completely stupid and when googling so many differing opinions which doesn't helpa complete novice like myself.
I mean for instance one site told me milk from the nipples indicates birth is only around 7 days away and really doesn't fit with what I have been told to expect so that sent down another Google rabbit hole about how premature puppies have little to no chance of survival. I must stop googling I think.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Saraemily said:


> must stop googling I think.


Yes, it's easy to scare yourself to death.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

It's wise to get the formula - if you find you need it when the shops are shut, you're in a mess. My bitch and litter didn't need it, so I used it up mixed with food when the pups were weaning. Some shops - independents mainly I think - will refund the money on it if it's returned with the seals intact.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> It's wise to get the formula - if you find you need it when the shops are shut, you're in a mess. My bitch and litter didn't need it, so I used it up mixed with food when the pups were weaning. Some shops - independents mainly I think - will refund the money on it if it's returned with the seals intact.


You also need a suitable bottles & teats, plus sterilizing tablets - like Milton, but supermarket own brands are cheaper. I've no idea what size bottle would be appropriate but I imagine someone else will.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> You also need a suitable bottles & teats, plus sterilizing tablets - like Milton, but supermarket own brands are cheaper. I've no idea what size bottle would be appropriate but I imagine someone else will.


[email protected] sell the bottles as do most vets I believe, and there's always Amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-La...s=Puppy+feeding+bottles&qid=1616425492&sr=8-5


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> [email protected] sell the bottles as do most vets I believe, and there's always Amazon.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-La...s=Puppy+feeding+bottles&qid=1616425492&sr=8-5


Surprised at one size bottle for puppies as they vary so much in size.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

SusieRainbow said:


> [email protected] sell the bottles as do most vets I believe, and there's always Amazon.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beaphar-La...s=Puppy+feeding+bottles&qid=1616425492&sr=8-5


Thank you, I have ordered 2x those bottles and earlier a box/tin of Royal canin puppy milk.
Her behaviour has definitely changed today, she is sleeping almost constantly, has little to no tolerance for the cat (who she usually shares a bed with) and will not leave my side. Her stomach is firm and her nipples are very large but she doesn't look pregnant, there's certainly no obvious change in her shape when she's stood on all 4 legs, she has become slightly wider but not dramatically. It's only when she lays on her side things become more obvious, I'm hoping this is a positive and indicates a small litter.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

A little update for anyone interested, as of yesterday morning she has completely changed shape, where previously she seemed to bow out at the sides, that has almost disappeared and her stomach is now hanging downwards and the sides are almost flat.
I know in my hours of reading this is to be expected but I didn't really note at what point this usually happens.
Does it mean the onset of labour is imminent or more something that happens in the days leading up to?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

How many days pregnant is she now?


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Around 59 days.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I would say that her change of shape is the pups moving into position.

She's close to her due date yes, but a change of shape wouldn't normally indicate that labour is imminent, as in within hours.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Saraemily said:


> Around 59 days.


I wish you both well; I think this coming Easter weekend is her due date? Not long to go - do please keep us informed.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Rafa said:


> I would say that her change of shape is the pups moving into position.
> 
> She's close to her due date yes, but a change of shape wouldn't normally indicate that labour is imminent, as in within hours.


I just wasn't expecting it to be so dramatic, such an obvious change quite literally overnight.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Calvine said:


> I wish you both well; I think this coming Easter weekend is her due date? Not long to go - do please keep us informed.


Yes, Easter weekend was the estimation we were given. Of course I will update once things start to happen.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Do you know how many pups she's carrying?


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Rafa said:


> Do you know how many pups she's carrying?


I don't, just that the vet said there's more than one.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

64 days today and no sign of anything. She's completely her normal self.
I'm considering scheduling an appointment with the vets on Tuesday (preferably a phone call) if nothing has happened by then to try and find out what the process is from here if she doesn't start labour naturally herself.
I'm assuming at 64 days there's nothing to be concerned about? I have read they can go anything up to 70 days but then also conflicting information about the placenta starting to deteriorate after a certain point.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

If no signs by day 66 then get the vet to check her over because the longer the pups are in there the bigger they are getting.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Thank you, that would be Tuesday so I will contact them first thing if there's still nothing.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Saraemily said:


> Thank you, that would be Tuesday so I will contact them first thing if there's still nothing.


 I wish you both well! XX


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Hope all goes well, I'm sure it will.

20 years ago my dog had puppies from an accidental mating. Watching and helping them to be born was an emotional thing. And watching them grow and develop into little individual personalities was amazing.

The hardest part for me was saying goodbye to the pups when they went to their new homes, it broke my heart. I vetted every one and turned so many unsuitable people away. Kept in touch with the new owners for a few years too.

Good luck. x


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Any news yet?


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## hamsterlover123 (Mar 20, 2021)

Yes, is there any news yet? Are you going to keep the pups. it would be so cute!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

hamsterlover123 said:


> Yes, is there any news yet? Are you going to keep the pups. it would be so cute!


Keeping a whole litter is generally not recommended for the vast majority of people


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## hamsterlover123 (Mar 20, 2021)

BlueJay said:


> Keeping a whole litter is generally not recommended for the vast majority of people


True, but some people do just fine and it just depends on each person. Maybe some might have trouble keeping 1 or may others may take care of them equally. And her dog isn't big so the litter may not be that big. But it really depends on the person.


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## PFModerator (Jun 24, 2009)

hamsterlover123 said:


> True, but some people do just fine and it just depends on each person. Maybe some might have trouble keeping 1 or may others may take care of them equally. And her dog isn't big so the litter may not be that big. But it really depends on the person.


It's not good advice to throw out though.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

hamsterlover123 said:


> True, but some people do just fine and it just depends on each person. Maybe some might have trouble keeping 1 or may others may take care of them equally. And her dog isn't big so the litter may not be that big. But it really depends on the person.


Actually, it's not good for the pups.
People who do it right have to put a lot of time in to separating the pups and doing lots of individual training an bonding away from the siblings.
For someone who wasn't even planning on breeding their dog to begin with, keeping the whole litter is really not advisable.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hamsterlover123 said:


> True, but some people do just fine and it just depends on each person. Maybe some might have trouble keeping 1 or may others may take care of them equally. And her dog isn't big so the litter may not be that big. But it really depends on the person.


I think even many experienced dog people would struggle keeping an entire litter, so very unlikely the average pet owner as is the case here would 'do just fine'.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Agree absolutely.

IMO, it would be a very bad move to keep an entire litter and hardly fair to Mum either.


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## hamsterlover123 (Mar 20, 2021)

simplysardonic said:


> I think even many experienced dog people would struggle keeping an entire litter, so very unlikely the average pet owner as is the case here would 'do just fine'.


True, many average people would not do it. Her dog is small so there is a possibility it could only have one. But you know everyone is different. For example dog breeders keep many dogs while dog first timers have troubles with one dog (sometimes). Not judging anyone and not meaning to upset anyone.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

hamsterlover123 said:


> True, many average people would not do it. Her dog is small so there is a possibility it could only have one. But you know everyone is different. For example dog breeders keep many dogs while dog first timers have troubles with one dog (sometimes). Not judging anyone and not meaning to upset anyone.


Some dog breeders might have many dogs, but not from the same litter.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

hamsterlover123 said:


> It would be so cute!


As this litter was 100%, completely unplanned (unlike many we get on here), it is highly unlikely that the owner is planning to keep a pack of dogs; why would she? I don't think she would think it was ''cute'' at all.



hamsterlover123 said:


> her dog isn't big so the litter may not be that big.


I understood Effie was a cockapoo . . . she could have six, so a nice pack of seven with the mum? My friend's dog had five and she could not wait to see them rehomed towards the end . . . it's a massive amount of work and cleaning up when they get to be a few weeks old.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Apologies I haven't updated until now, we have 4 pups, all healthy but it wasn't plain sailing and I can categorically say I will never ever in my life intentionally breed a dog. You need nerves of steel and a very healthy bank balance. Luckily I have the latter but not the former. Number 1 and 2 we birthed at home, then it was a trip to the emergency vets and a four figure sum later 3 and 4 were delivered by cesarean section. 
In the space of 48 hours I have become a midwife, a surrogate mum and a complete sleep deprived wreck.
No amount of books, hours of reading and organisation can prepare you for this.
I have zero intention of keeping any of the puppies, let alone a whole litter, as for what I plan to do with them I have no idea as yet. I need to just process what has happened and focus on Effie and the babies, the rehoming is a bridge I shall cross when I need to.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

hamsterlover123 said:


> True, many average people would not do it. Her dog is small so there is a possibility it could only have one. But you know everyone is different. For example dog breeders keep many dogs while dog first timers have troubles with one dog (sometimes). Not judging anyone and not meaning to upset anyone.


Cockapoos aren't small, they vary wildly in size but are almost always medium sized dogs, & breeders tend tend to have dogs of different generations of their own breedings & dogs from other breeders to add to their lines but not entire litters.

There was an episode of The Dog Rescuers a few years back where a couple just let their dogs breed & kept all the puppies, they ended up with loads of inbred dogs that were practically feral, while they were filming there was a fatal fight between some of the dogs, it was very harrowing to watch.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Saraemily said:


> Apologies I haven't updated until now, we have 4 pups, all healthy but it wasn't plain sailing and I can categorically say I will never ever in my life intentionally breed a dog. You need nerves of steel and a very healthy bank balance. Luckily I have the latter but not the former. Number 1 and 2 we birthed at home, then it was a trip to the emergency vets and a four figure sum later 3 and 4 were delivered by cesarean section.
> In the space of 48 hours I have become a midwife, a surrogate mum and a complete sleep deprived wreck.
> No amount of books, hours of reading and organisation can prepare you for this.
> I have zero intention of keeping any of the puppies, let alone a whole litter, as for what I plan to do with them I have no idea as yet. I need to just process what has happened and focus on Effie and the babies, the rehoming is a bridge I shall cross when I need to.


THat's a relief! Did you manage to find a birthing attendant?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Saraemily said:


> Apologies I haven't updated until now, we have 4 pups, all healthy but it wasn't plain sailing and I can categorically say I will never ever in my life intentionally breed a dog. You need nerves of steel and a very healthy bank balance. Luckily I have the latter but not the former. Number 1 and 2 we birthed at home, then it was a trip to the emergency vets and a four figure sum later 3 and 4 were delivered by cesarean section.
> In the space of 48 hours I have become a midwife, a surrogate mum and a complete sleep deprived wreck.
> No amount of books, hours of reading and organisation can prepare you for this.
> I have zero intention of keeping any of the puppies, let alone a whole litter, as for what I plan to do with them I have no idea as yet. I need to just process what has happened and focus on Effie and the babies, the rehoming is a bridge I shall cross when I need to.


Well done Effie, & you as well.

When the time comes for them to find new homes I'm sure the breeders on here will be able to help you.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Glad you are all OK! That groomer really has a lot to answer for - things could have been so much worse (and I am sure she must have been aware of what had happened).


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Saraemily said:


> Apologies I haven't updated until now, we have 4 pups, all healthy but it wasn't plain sailing and I can categorically say I will never ever in my life intentionally breed a dog. You need nerves of steel and a very healthy bank balance. Luckily I have the latter but not the former. Number 1 and 2 we birthed at home, then it was a trip to the emergency vets and a four figure sum later 3 and 4 were delivered by cesarean section.
> In the space of 48 hours I have become a midwife, a surrogate mum and a complete sleep deprived wreck.
> No amount of books, hours of reading and organisation can prepare you for this.
> I have zero intention of keeping any of the puppies, let alone a whole litter, as for what I plan to do with them I have no idea as yet. I need to just process what has happened and focus on Effie and the babies, the rehoming is a bridge I shall cross when I need to.


Well done I'm glad she is ok sounds very stressful.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Well done, Effie (and you!)
Fingers crossed everything goes smoothly for you all from here out


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## Nicola234 (Nov 10, 2020)

Aww well done both of you, hopefully all smooth sailing now x


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well done coming through the experience, it can be horribly nerve racking.

Do you know yet which of the two dogs involved is the father?


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

Well done. You have been amazing through a very difficult situation. Hope Effie recovers well.x


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## Mum2Ozzy (Dec 21, 2020)

Congratulations and well done! My friend bred her dog and I agree it's not for faint hearted. I wasn't there for birth but was kept informed as we were buying one of the pups and barely slept all night. Bitch Ended up in csection as well. I'm glad all is well and I hope Effie recovers quickly x


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Just to answer a few questions whilst I'm having a break from feeding and toileting. Those 2 hour breaks go so fast and 9 times out of 10 I don't even get the full 2 hours, through the night I'm lucky if I get a full hour between feeding, toileting and then starting again.

No, I don't know who the father was, 2 of the babies are rather small (the two she birthed herself) and the 2 delivered by cesarean section are massive, 1 almost 3 times bigger than the smallest in weight and size.

I didn't have whelping assistance as I felt fairly confident in doing it myself after all the research and we actually did very well until everything went awfully wrong. My emergency vet is a 40 minute drive away too so that made an already stressful situation unbearable.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Well done that mom and babies are doing fine. I wish everyone would read about your experience because too many people take breeding way too lightly. 

Have you spoken with the groomer at all? I can't quite get over the irresponsibility of them allowing this to happen in the first place, but then not letting you know.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Huge congratulations to you and Effie! xx


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Such a radical difference in the size of the pups could mean that both dogs mated her. A bitch can conceive to two matings by different dogs - it's unusual, but it can happen.


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## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

Well done. You have done great. Is mum not feeding the pups?


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Rafa said:


> Such a radical difference in the size of the pups could mean that both dogs mated her. A bitch can conceive to two matings by different dogs - it's unusual, but it can happen.


Gosh that really doesn't bear thinking about.
I think unlikely though, well I hope anyway. I mean one mistake is bad enough, but enough time for 2 dogs to mate with her seems almost unthinkable.


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## Kaily (Feb 8, 2020)

Well done to you for all you are doing for your girl and the pups.


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

David C said:


> Well done. You have done great. Is mum not feeding the pups?


She wasn't no, showing absolutely no interest so I was sent home from the vets with substitute milk, bottles and some really useful information on hand rearing but also how to try and establish feeding from mum which I seem to have made some progress with today (touch wood).
She was very sore yesterday, in alot of pain and generally miserable but has perked up alot today.
We started slowly and she's now really trying which is not only a relief but so lovely to see.
I think I just need to take her lead, when she's had enough then I will take over. She is allowing them to suckle now, before she wouldn't even lay for them. She definitely has milk and they seem content. I'm hoping after a few days of me helping her and supervising we may have cracked it.


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## LydiaC (Mar 6, 2019)

Well done! I haven't commented up to now but I've been following the thread and wishing you all the very best. I hope you manage to get some rest and mum and pups all do well.


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## hamsterlover123 (Mar 20, 2021)

Saraemily said:


> Apologies I haven't updated until now, we have 4 pups, all healthy but it wasn't plain sailing and I can categorically say I will never ever in my life intentionally breed a dog. You need nerves of steel and a very healthy bank balance. Luckily I have the latter but not the former. Number 1 and 2 we birthed at home, then it was a trip to the emergency vets and a four figure sum later 3 and 4 were delivered by cesarean section.
> In the space of 48 hours I have become a midwife, a surrogate mum and a complete sleep deprived wreck.
> No amount of books, hours of reading and organisation can prepare you for this.
> I have zero intention of keeping any of the puppies, let alone a whole litter, as for what I plan to do with them I have no idea as yet. I need to just process what has happened and focus on Effie and the babies, the rehoming is a bridge I shall cross when I need to.


That's great! I am glad they are all healthy!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I can't quite get over the irresponsibility of them allowing this to happen in the first place, but then not letting you know


Absolutely immoral and conscienceless: in her position I would not have been able to sleep at night. Let's hope the woman at least will learn to be careful in future with dogs in her care. I guess the father could possibly be a dog that doesn't belong to the groomer?


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## Saraemily (Mar 17, 2021)

Calvine said:


> Absolutely immoral and conscienceless: in her position I would not have been able to sleep at night. Let's hope the woman at least will learn to be careful in future with dogs in her care. I guess the father could possibly be a dog that doesn't belong to the groomer?


I guess anything at all is possible, I can't rule anything out. I haven't had any contact with the groomer since the initial communication. It was clear she wasn't going to cooperate or be forthcoming with any information so I figured it just wasn't worth the stress.
I know some would have pursued but it just wasn't a priority to me at the time and now it's allover I'm just relieved I still have my dog, alive healthy albeit a little uncomfortable and probably very overwhelmed.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Cat breeder here, if I had a cat that was in pain after a section I'd be asking the vet for pain relief. In fact I think my vet would send her home with some. She will settle far better with the pups if she's not in pain.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Saraemily said:


> It was clear she wasn't going to cooperate or be forthcoming with any information


That's what really made it so unacceptable: had she ''come clean'' and told you what had happened when you picked Effie up, apologised profusely and offered to pay for a vet visit, she could have had a mismate jab - even that would have been bad enough. 
Out of interest, are they boys or girls? Do let us see some photos when you can take a few minutes off your babysitting duties?


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I think I'd be contacting a lawyer (and maybe even Dog Law) and sending the groomer a bill with a nice letter saying you expect to be compensated and if you don't hear from her she'll be hearing from your solicitor! 

I'm glad she and pups are OK, what an awful situation. Make sure you get a puppy contract written up stipulating they are all neutered to avoid any other accidents!


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Theres always DNA tests too, thiugh that's yet more money you shouldn't be having to spend!
I know they aren't typically super duper mega accurate, but could maybe give you a little more "ammo" so to speak against the groomer if she's still being difficult and results come back as one of her breeds.

Its definitely easier to just let things slide, but please don't let her get away with this. Of course accidents can happen, but her attitude about it especially in a supposed professional setting is horrendous, and things could have turned out so much worse.

Gentle hugs to Effie!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

BlueJay said:


> Theres always DNA tests too,


There are DNA test to prove parentage, rather than breed, but samples would be needed from both the potential sires, which would most likely be impossible to get.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I wondered about DNA too; but a) I think OP just wants to put it behind her and concentrate on Effie and her pups and b) as I earlier suggested, for all anyone knows, it could have been a client's dog - so who knows (no-one except the groomer who is saying it didn't even happen there, despite the timing [30th Jan] being spot-on).


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

Hope Effie and the puppies are well.x


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2021)

Saraemily Wow! Just read it all now. Almost unbelievable you are a better person than I am cause I'm fuming. If an accident happened in my watch I would have told owner right away so the owner can choose to give the mismatch injection. Admittedly I didn't know bitches can be pregnant at day 21 but I'm no breeding expert. I do think its important lesson to keep intact bitches safe at home under our watch till they finish season completely I wouldn't want my girl (when intact) to be harassed by males while still hormonal but the groomer behaviour is simply appalling and unprofessional and I hope you'll do something about it when you're less busy with Effie and puppies to prevent her doing it to others.
I cometary agree from childhood experience there could be more than one male involved our beautiful GSD had a big litter of 11 from many different males! None looked like her or like the other puppies.. they were all rehomed. 
Well than for doing the best for Effie and puppies what a stressful situation but you're lucky to have each other and its very heart warming even if unplanned completely. I'm sure you'll find them good homes and will be great to see pics!


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## 1507601 (Jun 26, 2020)

What an awful situation... I hope the groomer never lets this happen again. You're doing really well, hang in there. You sound like a wonderful dog owner x So glad Effie is okay


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## Mum2Ozzy (Dec 21, 2020)

How are you all doing, especially Effie and the pups? Xx


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Mum2Ozzy said:


> How are you all doing, especially Effie and the pups? Xx


It would be nice to know how they all are; but no sign of OP for three weeks, so it may not happen. I imagine she's very busy, of course.


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