# Pump recommendation



## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Hello!

I'm currently using an Interpet PF Mini and it's got to the point where it's needing to be cleaned every four or five days. The previous pump was also unreliable and high-maintenance.

Can anyone recommend something reliable? We're going on holiday and don't want the fish to suffocate while we're gone! We have five goldfish with gravel and a couple of ornaments. The tank is about 50 litres and budget is whatever is necessary to get something good. Thanks in advance for any guidance.


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Hello 

Ok, the reason your Interpet filter needs cleaning every few days, is unfortunately because your tank is *very* overstocked. The general stocking 'rule' for goldfish is to give the first fish 100L, and add an additional 50L per fish thereafter (as a minimum).

So for 5 fish, you're looking at a tank of at least 300L. That's assuming they are fancy goldfish and not the common, single-tails, who would require a large pond instead.

For filtration, you want a filter that is rated for at least double the size of the tank (though bigger is always better). So for a 300L tank you'd want a filter that is rated for at least a 600L tank. External filters are best, I've got a TetraTec EX1200 which is great, I've also heard good things about Fluval and Eheim filters.

The reason for the big tanks and big filters is that goldfish grow very large and they are messy creatures that create a lot of waste! 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the best thing you can do for your fish is to upgrade the tank, as well as the filter, asap


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Many thanks for all the helpful advice, magpie! I had a feeling there was a hell of lot for me to learn about keeping fish and looks like I was right!

They actually are standard single-tail goldfish - mother-in-law took them out of her pond and added them to the tank (initially it was just one in there and I think he's standard too - looks the same as the rest).

So not entirely sure how to proceed now - the fish seem very happy together (they're pretty active anyway) so I wouldn't want to move the four from the pond back to the pond and leave Butch Cassidy (the original one) on his own (we don't have a pond of our own so tank is the only option for us).

To clarify, an external filter is one you attach to the outside of the tank and pop some tubes in the water or something? Or it's external in some other way?


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Yes, that's the external that is implied.

You can also get HOB filters which are also external, but for goldfish you need a workhorse. My personal preference is the Eheim, get the biggest you can afford, something like a 2215 or 2217. Check out ebay as they often go second hand (just check with the seller that they are in good working order)

If you can't upgrade the tank upgrade the filter and upgrade the WC schedule


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Thanks for the advice Nick. Can you clarify what you mean by WC schedule? Also, will the Eheim give all three types of filtration? Is that something that is actually important?


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

spl said:


> Thanks for the advice Nick. Can you clarify what you mean by WC schedule?


Water Change Schedule.

For example, if your current schedule is 25% per week then for an overstocked goldfish tank you are looking at 50%, twice weekly

Plants, such as Elodea, will help greatly, but the Goldie's will nibble them, so buy loads (elodea is cheap). Stick a couple of root tabs in where you will put the Elodea. Plants the Elodea in bunches. Buy as much as you can afford and fit in.


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Ah gotcha. Well it's always about 50%, but probably once every 5 to 7 days. Thanks for the Elodea advice - much appreciated. We used to have plants in there, not sure what kind (they were meant to add oxygen) so we'll definitely get some Elodea in there. Would this be a good choice of filter?

Eheim Classic 2213


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

Pond goldfish really should live in ponds and not in tanks - no tank will ever really be big enough (not unless you intend to create what is essentially an indoor pond). 

I'm assuming that Butch is a fancy, and therefore not really suitable for a pond? My advice would be to return the single tailed fish to the pond ASAP (Butch could go too, just for the summer, but be careful to acclimatise him gently), and then go get yourself a suitable sized tank to accommodate two fancies (the bigger the better, so 200L) and a suitable filter, perform a fishless cycle on the new tank (which won't take long if you use the existing substrate and filter media to seed the new tank - we can explain more), and then you can get yourself a friend for Butch and also return Butch to the tank. Just make sure the new fish isn't too small in comparison to your older fish or else he might struggle to keep up with food!

ETA - if Butch is a single tailed goldfish I suggest leaving him in the pond, and either getting a better tank if you intend to keep fancy goldfish, or else take a look at tropicals or smaller cold water fish - they are often easier to keep and more hardy than goldfish, and there is a wide variety of interesting and beautiful fish to choose from.


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Thanks for the helpful advice Phoenix. Pond isn't an option though - we don't have one and they couldn't even return to mother-in-law because she's moved house and has no pond either.

I don't think there's anything different about Butch Cassidy. He only has one tail and looks the same as the others. I'm certainly no expert but I think they're all the same variety.

To be honest, a massive tank isn't really an option either. Partly due to the huge expense and partly due to the huge amount of space that would be necessary. It probably doesn't seem like much to serious fish owners but to me 50 litres seems like a pretty big tank already - smaller than a pond I know but easily quadruple the size of the tank that Butch Cassidy came in.

So with pond and 200-300 litre tanks being off the menu, would an Eheim 2213, Elodea and twice-weekly 50% water changes be the best course of action?


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

spl said:


> So with pond and 200-300 litre tanks being off the menu, would an Eheim 2213, Elodea and twice-weekly 50% water changes be the best course of action?


Only really as a very temporary measure...

The thing is, common goldfish can grow to around a foot in length, which is not far off the length of your average 50L tank. And as the fish get bigger, it will get harder and harder to keep the water quality good enough for them, even with a better filter and more water changes.

I know it's probably not what you want to hear, but it's the honest truth. Your tank would be perfect for a shoal of small tropicals, and there are lots of options out there. But you're going to struggle with keeping your goldfish, and it will be tough on them too


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

No, a bigger filter and more water changes will not solve your problem. As magpie said the fish will only get bigger and produce more waste, although what is more likely is that they will all become stunted and suffer from internal disorders as a result. Stunting is essentially when a fish's body cannot grow because the environment is too small, but also the insides of the fish often continue trying to grow, and end up with problems particularly in the intestines. Goldfish are most prone to this because they are such big fish and kept in such small tanks, and also inbreeding and their modified body shapes mean their bodies are already essentially 'malformed' - a problem that is exhasperated by stunting. Swim bladder disorders are all too common, and most die within a year or so.

It is likely your fish will already have the beginnings of the problems yet to come, and the only real way to save them is a massive tank upgrade asap. otherwise, should your fish be hardy enough to live for any length of time (you hear of goldfish surviving in appalling conditions such as fish bowls for up to ten years - I can assure you they were only surviving, not really living) it will not be an easy or humane existence for them.

So a large tank is really out of the question? Then you must consider re-homing them, if you really do care about their welfare. I don't know where you are based, but you could try pets4homes.co.uk to advertise them for re-homing, or on here. Sending them to a pet store for re-homing is no good because likelihood is they will only end up back in a small tank.

I'm sorry to give you the bad news, it is a mistake many make with goldfish (including myself and many others on here), and I really wish more was being done to prevent goldfish being sold by unscrupulous pet stores who give out poor/terrible advice about their care. Attitudes and knowledge about the proper care of goldfish is slowly becoming more widespread, but in the mean time people continue to stick to the 'old' ways that are outdated and inhumane, and until those people can be reached out to and educated goldfish will continue to suffer and die.


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Thank you both for the advice. It's really surprising how much suffering can be caused by simple ignorance. We'll ask around friends and family for anyone with a pond willing to adopt them and failing that, pets4homes.co.uk. Thanks again for the guidance with this.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks for being willing to do this - so many people after being given advice like this will either argue that their fish are 'fine' (they may not be showing any physical signs of illness, but at the very least will have shortened lifespans and no quality of life), or they simply don't post again and, I imagine, shake theor heads incredulously and keep doing what they were doing. It's alway great when someone listens and acts on the advice given, like yourself 

I'm another from the 'too small goldfish tank' club - I first started posting here when my two goldfish, which were in a 14l tank on the very bad advice of my local pet shop, became unwell. Unfortunately the good advice came too late for my two, but in the course of trying to save them I bought a second-hand 70l tank (intended as a temporary measure until I could rehome them to a pond). My tank now houses a healthy and colourful community of small tropicals, and I'll be setting up tank #2 soon - be warned, it's addictive!


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I inherited my first goldfish from my brother, along with the 20L tank that they had lived in for a year already. It was only after speaking to people online that I realised what they really needed and upgraded their tank to a 200L 

One of those original two was a pond goldfish, and after 2 years in the larger tank he had grown to over 9 inches long (and was then transferred to a friends pond). 

I now have 5 fancy goldfish (and one rescue comet that now too needs to go to a pond) in a 500L tank. Naomi is right, it is addictive! 

So yeah, we've all been there 

Oh, sometimes if you look on preloved, there are people looking for goldfish for their ponds... might be worth a look


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Thanks Naomi. I've been pretty active on other (totally unrelated) forums and have come to realise there's no expert like a forum expert  Glad I found this one. The other pet forums that came up were all broken (broken registration or no permission to post etc).

Magpie, 500 litres must have cost a fortune! That must be sitting on some seriously heavy-duty furniture?

Anyway, change of plans - I'm digging a pond in our garden. We have a patch roughly 160cm by 100cm which I could dig maybe 140cm deep, which I think would come to 2240 litres. Not something I've done before, but how hard can it be! Anything I should know about pond maintenance? I guess they're gonna need a hell of a lot more food as they get big - I suppose I'll just gradually increase it as they grow?


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

Oooh, pond! That will be awesome for them, and so nice that you've decided to keep them!  I don't personally know much about maintaining a pond, but I assume there are certain similarities to aquarium maintenance... 
I think Phoenix has a pond though, so will hopefully be able to help 

Feeding-wise, yes I would just increase the amount of food as they grow - that's pretty much what I do anyway! Goldfish are grazers by nature, so if possible it's better to feed them small amounts several times a day.

My goldfish tank is a pretty 'cheap' brand, so it wasn't as hugely expensive as it could have been. I think it was about £500, which included the stand and an external filter. I wouldn't trust that amount of water on furniture that wasn't designed for it!


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

I started out with a very VERY tiny little tank when I got my first goldfish. It was a hexagonal thingy, about 11L, with a tube going into it with an airstone (I only recently learned that this was actually an under-gravel filter, which is probably why my first didn't die in the first week, although I knew nothing about cycling). Those two fish - a small fantail and a shubunkin(!) probably lived a few months until they succumbed to whitespot, no doubt causes by stress from such a terrible set up.

A couple of years later I dug out the same tank and bought 2 more single tailed goldfish and another shubunkin - still knowing nothing about fishkeeping (though I did at least use tapwater conditioner). I started reading a bit, and got a bit concerned that there wasn't enough room for even a small internal filter (I did buy one, a mini one, but the poor fish were blown around everywhere) so I upgraded to a 20L tank. Wow. Lol. 

At the same time I had another tiny tank which I put about 10 trops in, including an angelfish! I used the mini filter in there plus a mini heater, and the new 20L tank had its own filter.

Unsurprisingly problems started happening pretty fast. The trops started dying after only a few weeks (i'm surprised they lasted that long, but I guess the filter was already part matured), and that was when I first learned about cycling. I lost count of the water changes, must have done hundreds, before I went out and bought a 40L tank. 

The remaining trops lived for a while - I put a whole bunch of them in a mature tank where I worked, I lost the 2 angels and a few others, but a few cherry barbs survived (and 2 still do now, 5 years later) and I restocked the new tank with more fish.

Meanwhile in the 20L the goldfish started struggling (and there were a few white cloud mountain minnows in with them) and I lost them too, and I replaced them with a fancy goldfish and more white clouds. 

That goldfish got sick too, despite being upgraded to a 65L tank (a tank which for a year was used for the tropicals when I realised 40L was too small - then I realised 65L was too small too and upgraded to a 120L which I still have now), and I moved him into the pond. I think he survived for a while, but the damage was already done.

Now I have upgraded the cold water tank to 100L, and the trop tank - for now - remains at 120L. I will never again buy a goldfish for an aquarium (not unless I ever get the space and money for an indoor pond/giant tank). All the people on the forums were telling me over and over that my tanks were too small, and I just kept saying that 'eventually they would go in the pond'. That eventually was too late for the poor goldfish.

I need a bigger tank for my trops, for my angelfish especially (I got her when I had the 40L, and she is doing better now) but at least my filtration is very good - more than double the tank size.

Anyway, so you see we all started somewhere and learnt hard lessons along the way. I have come a long way from that tiny hexagonal 10L tank, and have learned about water chemistry, cycling - I performed my first full fishless cycle on my temperate tank, and all sorts of other things about the fish that I keep. I'm still only a beginner, really.

As for the pond - we have a 'semi-natural' pond which is a large, figure eight shaped, double-shelf hole dug into the ground, lined with pond liner, with a tonne of elodea, water lilies, and irises growing in it. It has no filter, which means we have to be quite careful with it as all the bacteria are living on the plants and substrate. The goldfish in it have pretty much gone wild, but we bought a few orfs last summer to try and bring them up to food.

My advice - if you want an ornamental goldfish pond - make it as big as you can. You will need shallow areas either around the edges or to one side (like a swimming pool) and a deep area which is deep enough for the fish to go in winter without freezing to death. The plants you use depend on the depths you put them in. If you have a heron you might want to net over the pond - but make sure nothing else can get in and get trapped and drown!

You should have a filter, too. They are expensive, and you will need to work out the volume of your pond so you can buy the right sized one. The electrics for the pump will have to be protected - obviously! I can't help much with this part as like I said our pond isn't filtered (can't seem to persuade mum to get a filter, but I do test the water and its been fine mostly, but the lack of flow and surface agitation causes problems with oxygen levels in the summer, and we do get a lot of algae).

Sorry for the long post, rambled a bit!


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Ah I didn't even think of running electricity out there. Are there battery-powered filters I could buy? Alternatively, I could try and emulate your filter-less pond.

What's the reason for having a shallow end? I'm not overly bothered about looks - mainly just want an environment the fish will be happy in. If I dug at a slope from one end to the other then they'd still have around 1000 litres, but obviously 2000 litres would be better


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## Phoenix24 (Apr 6, 2013)

The shallow end has many benefits. It is somewhere that will warm faster, and the fish will bask in it. Its also somewhere that is easier to see the fish them they are up! 

The shallow end accommodates pond plants that do not grow tall.

Wildlife use the shallow end. Birds bathe in it. Newts and frogs use it for accessing the pond for breeding (incidentally, if your shallow end still has a sharp drop into it, you might want to consider some rocks to act as an escape ladder should anything fall in).

A 'natural' pond will work but with that it is much more important to consider the shape and depth of the pond, the deeper area for the fish to escape into, the shallow end for wildlife to use without drowning. You must still use water conditioner when topping the pond up, whether or not you use a filter.

An ornamental pond is typically deeper and netted over, so less need for a shallow area. My aunt's pond is also partially raised at the edges (I think so she doesn't have to bend so far!), but she has a shallow pool above the deep pond where the frogs love to lay their spawn!


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## spl (Apr 28, 2014)

Good advice. Many thanks! I'll post back if there's anything specific I need guidance with on the pond but I think I know what I need now (at least enough to get started!). Thanks again to all for the advice - you've been a very helpful and informative bunch!


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