# these backyard breeders are getting bright!



## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

I was just having a little look around to see what i could see... i came across this add 

opps... Ive taken off the add coz its now allowed on here


both mum and dad have papers (aparently) but this kitten does not and is ready to go now even though they havent yet had there second injection (due in 3 weeks) but the price for this non pedigree cat is £550! 

me being me.... i HAD to ring up and speak to the owner... and the reason why the 9 week old kitten is £550 is because her parents are pedigree....

i made it quite clear i was not impressed and said no decent person would be willing to spend that much money on a 9 week old cat that didnt even come with it paperswork


mayb the kitty craps gold!...... for that price i would assume so! :


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## kelly-joy (Oct 14, 2008)

poor baby


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

they are also selling loads of other kittens:

Link removed due to advertising pets off another site..

you know what as much as I hate these people, Im beginning to think that people are bloody stupid WHY would they buy them??? they cant seriously think that thius is normal surely?  :


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

wow... i didnt know you could do a google search.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

its ridiculous tho.... who would spend £550 on a 9 week old kitten with no papers not yet fully vacinated, and nnon health tested parents!

not being funny but if a person wanted that they can get it almost haf the price! 

i told them no1s going to buy ur kitten for that price and im assuming the mum/dad isnt on the active... they cant get papers and it would be better to vac the kitten at 12 weeks then sell on for a reasonable amount. 

most non active kittens go for about the 350 mark... 400 max... 550 is taking the pee


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

She's a darling little thing, aren't they all, but very much a pet for a BSH and at £500 . I've never been able to figure this sort of 'breeder'. They've gone three quarters of the way, by the sounds of it, with getting her vaccinated, flea/worm treated, etc. Would it be so hard to go the little extra and breed from registered cats and keep the kittens for the few extra weeks beyond first vaccination... just for the satisfaction of knowing you've done it properly? The out and out dodgy ones who do virtually nothing.. well, it;s clear what they're about. It's this sort that have me bemused.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

well from the google search they are selling "moggies" for £120 for black and white £160 for a ginger!


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

Please copy and paste this if you know someone, or have been affected by someone, who needs a slap round head. People who need a slap round the head affect the lives of many. There is still no known cure for someone who deserves a slap round the head, except a slap round the head, but we can ...raise awareness. Many won't copy and paste this. I did. Will you?

These stupid people need a slap round the face


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

Maybe a minority of 'jo public' aren't so interested in the paperwork!  

I'm guessing people must be paying these crazy prices somewhere!

I know it doesn't make it right but the kitten will be vaccinated, is wormed, socialsed with children, comes with kitten pack, vet checked etc just no papers! They aren't faking the papers & are being upfront about the sale.
Papers don't guarantee health tests, or even a well socialised kitten etc!

Maybe she just really loves the kitten & wants the 'best home ever' for it  or is cashing in more likely than not!

(don't know all the ins and outs obviously)


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

fair enough but even without papers 550 is absolute madness. kittens are half this price! and they are actually selling the kitten at 9 weeks and are saying you can come back for the 2nd injection in 3 weeks time meaning that imo the cat wont be properly socialised... and as theres only 1 kitten remaining it might be that the rest have already gone to new homes. 

its just stupid! ...


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

even with papers and extremly well bred with full health tests wouldnt cost you anywhere near that, your talking £200 over priced!

Plus the mum doesnt look full british, thats the beauty of registered paperwork, you KNOW what your getting is the real thing, sadly people buying without are just getting a expesnive moggie again no health tests and breeders breeding for ££ instead of a real reason to breed.

people will still buy them though, they think their getting a bargain, untill it falls ill and dies.

Just like the lady having a raggie from me, the last one she got at 8weeks old (more like 5 they were told by the vet  ) and he had cat flu various behavioual issues and he then died 6 months later  

I see a persian for sale for £650, no paperwork or health tests, of course he was 'rare' though  

the people didnt care, then they found out that mum was a cross and dad was also a cross, they just 'looked' like ragdolls, unless you have paperwork, you could be getting a birman/siamese/ragdoll/moggie cross, and ALOT of these people breed mum/son/daughter/dad, but no paperwork so they lie about it!

Id never get a cat without paperwork! Or full health tests, to much of arisk for me with the amount of cats dieing, at least we can find out who is ill and remove them from breeding programs, unlike these people who dont even bother! its only £30 one off test, you think they would just do it, well, if they cared that is!


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

People must just be crazy to pay these prices! 
Maybe they are a designer must have in the location they are being sold? 
Were they in London or did I imagine that? :blink: lol (we went into a corner shop in London a couple of months back, £2 for 1 apple )


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

yeah they are in south london............. and yes its hard to find decent pedigree breeders in and around south but there are good 1s... me for a start, and it wouldnt even occur to me to sell an active kitten with show potential for that price! talorbaby is just outside london! the most ive paid for an active kitten is 475 and thats with parents health checked pkd etc


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

Shayden said:


> yeah they are in south london............. and yes its hard to find decent pedigree breeders in and around south but there are good 1s... me for a start, and it wouldnt even occur to me to sell an active kitten with show potential for that price! talorbaby is just outside london! the most ive paid for an active kitten is 475 and thats with parents health checked pkd etc


You dont get regional variations in price? 
I know with some dog breeds they cost far more the further south you go! (apologies if going off topic)


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Maybe a minority of 'jo public' aren't so interested in the paperwork!
> 
> I'm guessing people must be paying these crazy prices somewhere!
> 
> ...


I just don't like seeing anyone ripped off. The thing is, Holly, with no registration slip to prove the kitten is what they say it is, someone could be (and often is with byb's) paying £550... for what? A cute, well adjusted, de-flead, wormed, healthy socialised kitten. Great. But you can find the exact same thing in your local cat shelter for the price of a small donation.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

i havent noticed it with bsh to be honest.... mayb a £50 difference here and there but across the board its roughly the same! my kittens will be going for £350 which i think is the standard. with all there vacs, and both parents health tested plus a large amount of food if they can carry it and litter and a kitten pack with toys.... i think thats pretty good going!


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I just don't like seeing anyone ripped off. The thing is, Holly, with no registration slip to prove the kitten is what they say it is, someone could be (and often is with byb's) paying £550... for what? A cute, well adjusted, de-flead, wormed, healthy socialised kitten. Great. But you can find the exact same thing in your local cat shelter for the price of a small donation.


I kind of think 'more fool them' if they don't do the research & aren't that bothered then....they may beware of what they are doing, they may not! they maybe taking on a cat with horrible health problems they may not! It's their risk I guess!
(which is obviously not in any cats best interest, and purpetuates unnecessary breeding)

I guess its a shame if people buy a kitten thinking it's one thing & finding it's something different but if your prepared to pony up £500 for something that is advertised upfront no papers etc your either stupid, don't care or are made of money


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

some people genuinly dont know tho... fair enuff they should have done their research. but alot of info on defects and health issues can be hard to come by especially when people have had cats for years, or one has died and they want another etc. also.. people get taken in. they see a cute kitty feel sorry for it or just fall in love!... doesnt mean they love there cat any less... but the reality is .. the cat is already born and is here and needs a GOOD home!... some ppl think... y not!


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## neko (May 8, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> People must just be crazy to pay these prices!
> Maybe they are a designer must have in the location they are being sold?
> Were they in London or did I imagine that? :blink: lol (we went into a corner shop in London a couple of months back, £2 for 1 apple )


I don't believe in funding bad breeders, or mills, or things like that.
But if the home is clean, safe etc..
and the kittens, parents etc.. are healthy, (meaning if theyre NOT a BAD breeder)then I will pay whatever price for my cat! as long as it's not funding neglect or anything like that, because can you really put a price on the quality of health in an animal? can you put a price on the love you're going to give and get from that animal? ofcourse you can't! if they're a good breeder they're a good breeder, paperwork or no.
Maybe she just didn't want to register the kitten, if both of the parents have genuine papers and are pedigree then that does make the kitten pedigree.
I don't see why it should be snobbed at. Especially by assumptions.
I'd rather pay a lot of money for a "A cute, well adjusted, de-flead, wormed, healthy socialised kitten"
because i think THAT'S what is important* if*_ it comes to it_, not breed u_u..
Isn't that the kind of thing you choose a cat on anyway?
breeds a preference, but health, vaccinations, and socialisation are a MUST.
If i meet two kittens one pedigree full papers etc.. healthy, and one who isn't proven by it's own papers just it's parents(OR EVEN! just a regular kitty! if it has a good healthy enviroment and is healthy etc..(a good breeder)) 
If i feel a pull on my heart strings toward the regular/unproven kitten.. god damn i'm choosing that one! if theres no neglect or those types of things or BAD breeding/breeder.. i will choose the kitten i'm drawn to, the kitten who chooses me.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

do you consider a breeder who is selling her kitten at 9 weeks a good breeder? 

and i dont think youve actually read the entire thread
the parents i very much doubt are health tested as it wasnt mentioned on the phone conversation. the mum doesnt even look like a full bhs she could possibly have russian blue in her and how can a cat be well socialised at 9 weeks being taken away from their mother and the rest of their siblings if any!
also shes being sold without her last injection but is expecting for the kitten to be brought back to them 3 weeks later for it


if you would spend £550 on a cat which could die 2 weeks later then i wish you all the best! 


im curious to know what exactly you would class as a good breeder and who you would give your money to


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

neko said:


> I don't believe in funding bad breeders, or mills, or things like that.
> But if the home is clean, safe etc..
> and the kittens, parents etc.. are healthy. then I will pay whatever price for my cat! as long as it's not funding neglect or anything like that, because can you really put a price on the quality of health in an animal? can you put a price on the love you're going to give and get from that animal? ofcourse you can't! if they're a good breeder they're a good breeder, paperwork or no.
> Maybe she just didn't want to register the kitten, if both of the parents have genuine papers and are pedigree then that does make the kitten pedigree.
> ...


why wouldnt you register them? That = maybe the dad isnt the dad, could have mated his daughter, it only costs £9 and shows you that the cat is what you say it is, without that your paying more for nothing, paperwork and pedigrees are including in the price, a show of authenticity. 100% the mum isnt a full british, thats another reason for not regging obviously!

& 9 weeks old for £350, I very much doubt that the parents have any health tests, would eat into their profits! If you looked elsewhere you could get that kitten plus both vacs health tested and all paperwork for he same price! So I don't get why people would go for that, I really don't.

Of course you are funding them to keep breeding, if people stopped buying them they would Have to stop breeding them, leaving the good breeders left who actually care!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

also you cant tell if a kitten is healthy just by looking at it for 15 mins then going home with it... and if there was something wrong.. do you think this specific breeder would be willing to give you a refund? or give you another kitten (even though im sure after the first death you wouldnt want another one from the same breeder) 

y take the risk. when you can get a healthy vet checked, health tested kitten who has had all vacs etc.... the breed has nothing to do with it


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## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

neko said:


> I don't believe in funding bad breeders, or mills, or things like that.
> But if the home is clean, safe etc..
> and the kittens, parents etc.. are healthy, (meaning if theyre NOT a BAD breeder)then I will pay whatever price for my cat! as long as it's not funding neglect or anything like that, because can you really put a price on the quality of health in an animal? can you put a price on the love you're going to give and get from that animal? ofcourse you can't! if they're a good breeder they're a good breeder, paperwork or no.
> Maybe she just didn't want to register the kitten, if both of the parents have genuine papers and are pedigree then that does make the kitten pedigree.
> ...


Like shayden said it's about more than just the papers. It's unlikely the parents have had any health testing atall and if the breeder is genuine there is no reason not to have the kittens registered which already means there is probably something going on.
Any BYB is not a good breeder in my opinion. If your gonna breed you do it properly.
Selling them at 9 weeks is too young and GOOD reputable breeders keep their kittens till 12 weeks plus, so another point which suggests their up to no good. At the end of the day they don't sound a reliable source to get a kitten from, unless you want to go down the road of heartbreak because of underlying illness and endless money etc like has happened so many times to poor people on here


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Marley boy said:


> Please copy and paste this if you know someone, or have been affected by someone, who needs a slap round head. People who need a slap round the head affect the lives of many. There is still no known cure for someone who deserves a slap round the head, except a slap round the head, but we can ...raise awareness. Many won't copy and paste this. I did. Will you?
> 
> These stupid people need a slap round the face


ur so funny.x


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## Wendy1969 (Jun 4, 2010)

Was it even a 'genuine' ad? There are an awful lot of scammers out there


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

i rung them... and said i was interested, they said i could come and view... so iw ould assume so...


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## Wendy1969 (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh dear


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

That is really quite disturbing  

admittedly both my cats are moggies but I would not pay anywhere near £550 for a cat, not even a pedigree one. prices like that just scream irresponsible breeder out to make a quick few (hundred) quid and Im sorry to say otherwise is incredibly naieve and downright ignorant. 

I'd love a predigree cat someday, but it would have to come with its paperwork and health testing results and then I wouldnt pay more than £300. Everyone has their limits granted but £550 is rediculous


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Kitty_pig said:


> That is really quite disturbing
> 
> admittedly both my cats are moggies but I would not pay anywhere near £550 for a cat, not even a pedigree one. prices like that just scream irresponsible breeder out to make a quick few (hundred) quid and Im sorry to say otherwise is incredibly naieve and downright ignorant.
> 
> I'd love a predigree cat someday, but it would have to come with its paperwork and health testing results and then I wouldnt pay more than £300. Everyone has their limits granted but £550 is rediculous


depends what your going for but pedigrees are around £350-450, worth every penny if you have a great breeder!


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> depends what your going for but pedigrees are around £350-450, worth every penny if you have a great breeder!


I'm sure I could persuade OH to go slightly over the budget I have told him....or lie :lol:


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

Weird how it all comes down to a piece of paper!

People on here have moggies, untested, rescues, homed at 8 weeks, know nothing about the parents, potential health / mental problems, pay a lot less money for them..... but I'm 100% sure they love their cat / kitten just as much as if it were a pedigree & would happily of paid £500 for the above problems & all!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

the reality is... without that piece of paper how do you really know who the father is... how do you know that the mum wasnt mated to her father? how do you know the real age of the kittens, how do you know anything!


its the same as life... you cant expect to go into a job and they ask you for your masters degree and you say "well it doesnt matter so long as i tell you i can do the job" it just doesnt work like that.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

99% of BYB are dishonest and i personally am not going to pay 550 for an unhealth tested kitten only to have more problems in the future whereas i could have got an equally lovely kitten who is fully tested and healthy for £200 cheaper!

bare in mind your insurance may not be covered. and when your forking out £1000 out of your own money when it could all have been avoided. I would say its very reckless of you to put yourself and your feelings in tht kind of position! ...


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

We paid £300 each for our 2 pedigrees 6 years ago, expect that would be more like £350/£400 now. Having said that, they've given the four of us far in excess of £300's worth of love, comfort, entertainment, cuddles, companionship, fun, and they'll even keep visitors/visitors' small children amused for no extra charge. 

One visitor commented a couple of months ago that if he had two cats like that, he'd sell the telly, he wouldn't need it, watching the cats would keep him amused. He wasn't particularly a cat lover either. 

I wouldn't hesitate to buy pedigrees again, but I'd always do my research first and go to a reputable breeder. I wouldn't throw a lot of dosh at a dodgy car salesman and get myself landed with an expensive mistake, so why would I do it when a living creature and the emotions of myself and my family are involved as well. I wouldn't even want to go to view without knowing the breeder was reputable, because I know if I walked into a house and found a BYB with unhappy kits, I'd end up taking them anyway just to rescue them and I don't want to put myself in that position as it might well bring heartache and expense with it.


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

Shayden said:


> 99% of BYB are dishonest and i personally am not going to pay 550 for an unhealth tested kitten only to have more problems in the future whereas i could have got an equally lovely kitten who is fully tested and healthy for £200 cheaper!
> 
> bare in mind your insurance may not be covered. and when your forking out £1000 out of your own money when it could all have been avoided. I would say its very reckless of you to put yourself and your feelings in tht kind of position! ...


Please educate an incredibly stupid person, what does BYB mean? :blush:


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

lol byb = back yard breeders


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

told you it was a stupid question :lol:


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Kitty_pig said:


> told you it was a stupid question :lol:


dont b silly..lol


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

Shayden said:


> the reality is... without that piece of paper how do you really know who the father is... how do you know that the mum wasnt mated to her father? how do you know the real age of the kittens, how do you know anything!
> 
> its the same as life... you cant expect to go into a job and they ask you for your masters degree and you say "well it doesnt matter so long as i tell you i can do the job" it just doesnt work like that.


You dont, your just buying a very expensive moggy!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

which is y papers are so important...that way you know ur cat isnt a moggy! 

if i wanted a moggy id go to my local shelter


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm quite surprised at some of the comment here, sincerely so. It's one thing to not be clued up when spending that amount of money and being ripped off as a result. It's another to not care whether the pedigree you're considering buying is registered or not; if you are knowingly taking a chance on being ripped off, that's your decision.

But a few posters here seem to be suggesting that they and other people would be perfectly happy to spend £550 on ANY kitten *just* because it fit the bill. Of course, our cats & kittens worm their way into our hearts from day one and we'd spend every penny we had to keep them happy & healthy but I truly do not know anyone who would set out to to buy 'any' kitten with a budget of £550 in mind. Perhaps I move in the wrong circles


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

Shayden said:


> which is y papers are so important...that way you know ur cat isnt a moggy!
> 
> if i wanted a moggy id go to my local shelter


But that's your personal opinion, obviously not everyone thinks that way!

 a moggy isn't a bad thing surely! What ever they cost! It's us humans putting a price on a kittens life after all!

Do people on here have 'first hand' experience of buying from what you class as a BYB? Not a friend or a client?

I haven't been here long enough to know or read posts from actual clients of BYB's! I'm guessing their are lots?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

if you scroll thru the posts theres several people who tell of there experience. and theres nothing wrong with moggies... but theres so many being pts in shelters that i personally would prefer getting one from there instead of lineing the pockets of ignorant or irresponcible breeders who are looking to make a quick buck


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

From what I recall, all unregistered cats = moggies whether their parents were the same breed of pedigree or not right?


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

Gratch said:


> From what I recall, all unregistered cats = moggies whether their parents were the same breed of pedigree or not right?


thats what i thought too, if they dont have the paperwork I thought that made them moggies?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm quite surprised at some of the comment here, sincerely so. It's one thing to not be clued up when spending that amount of money and being ripped off as a result. It's another to not care whether the pedigree you're considering buying is registered or not; if you are knowingly taking a chance on being ripped off, that's your decision.
> 
> But a few posters here seem to be suggesting that they and other people would be perfectly happy to spend £550 on ANY kitten *just* because it fit the bill. Of course, our cats & kittens worm their way into our hearts from day one and we'd spend every penny we had to keep them happy & healthy but I truly do not know anyone who would set out to to buy 'any' kitten with a budget of £550 in mind. Perhaps I move in the wrong circles


you obviously move in the same circle as me


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Gratch said:


> From what I recall, all unregistered cats = moggies whether their parents were the same breed of pedigree or not right?


moggies are no pedigree, or made up of hundreds of poeds and no known background.

If a cat is un-registered, it could *look* like anything, I could tell people that this is a british shorthair as its blue for example and it was mated to a colourpoint british shorthair, without the paperwork, that blue could be from a moggie to 10crosses of blue cats or cat holding the blue gene, then the colourpoint can be amix of the same.

You only have that persons word...without paperwork, you get whatyou pay for, a expensive moggie, with no care to its up-bringing (hence being let go at 5-8weeks of age) and no health tests (would cut into profits)

It isnt 'just' a bit of paper, its showing you where that cat is from, I can trace mine back to the foundation breeds of the raggie breed, which I find incrediable.
*****

I have had first hand at BYBs, even been sent to invesitage one, and she swore her cats were this and that, the amount of people calling begging me & other breeders in my area for help was un-real, the kittens were dropped dead from 1 hour from getting them home to 2 weeks later.

selling them at 6weeks, barely moving, yet she swore thay all had paperwork. Got her shut down, so now she breeds 'rare' with no paperwork cross breed dogs :

Taylor was also from a BYB, who buys in from someone, who incedently own one of the biggest puppy farms in Essex, from being all voer the news to being shut down, the person imports from ireland, changes the kennel name 10times a year and now also does cat. Last I heard from a vet nurse thats having two kittens from me (has waitiedn since last july!) she had to put down 2 golden retrievers  within 3days both died of parvo. they were forced to sign a contract stating they had seen the pup and they take no responciblty if it gets ill or drops dead as soon as they hand over the money.

Im sorry but if these people think that this is normal, they must be more stupid that what I first thought.

But anyway, so yes IVe been there first hand, cages upon cages of 'pedigree' cats, people lying about what breed they own to make more money 'its a bengal' for example when its a moggie classic tabby. These people have nmo conscience I guess.

sorry for my spelling, Ive had 2 hours sleep, been doing photoshoot and pictures since 4pm and have 5 kittens on me going mental!! :crazy:


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## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

Yes we have seen many many posts on here from people who have unknowingly bought from BYB resulting in a couple of kittens deaths and people being thousands of pounds out of pocket and generally devastated after the experience.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

Shayden said:


> if you scroll thru the posts theres several people who tell of there experience. and theres nothing wrong with moggies... but theres so many being pts in shelters that i personally would prefer getting one from there instead of lineing the pockets of ignorant or irresponcible breeders who are looking to make a quick buck


We did actually set out looking at shelters but we were a no go as we have two young children and a dog (with no cat experience - the dog not us ) guess we could of fibbed but hey ho we didn't!

We researched as much as we required to find the breed that would suit us, found a known registered health tested stud who had a one off litter with a registered pedigree pet cat (non tested) colour & sex we were after, to be homed two weeks early due to health of mum, wormed, vet happy etc! Prefix & 5 gen pedigree currently winging it's way here as I'm typing! Great owners, fab mum, didn't meet dad but could arrange at any point, both dam & sire owners very helpful!

Not all A* but I know she was super loved that's apparent immediately on meeting her, the owner admitantly said it had 
been a steep learning curve for her & her hubby - both professionals!.....And her last litter!!

Reading this I feel we have definitely bought from a BYB (yet were so very happy)

"shrugs" 

Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture, horror stories etc!

Ps) we can trace Maisie back to the first 12 Ragdoll imports : ))


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

thats awful TB


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

Reading the above their are obviously completely different levels of BYB!

I've got lost between...puppy farming, back yard breeding of cats and hobby breeders!

Ooopsy!  time for my bed I think lol


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> We did actually set out looking at shelters but we were a no go as we have two young children and a dog (with no cat experience - the dog not us ) guess we could of fibbed but hey ho we didn't!
> 
> We researched as much as we required to find the breed that would suit us, found a known registered health tested stud who had a one off litter with a registered pedigree pet cat (non tested) colour & sex we were after, to be homed two weeks early due to health of mum, wormed, vet happy etc! Prefix & 5 gen pedigree currently winging it's way here as I'm typing! Great owners, fab mum, didn't meet dad but could arrange at any point, both dam & sire owners very helpful!
> 
> ...


im happy for you... like i said 99% of byb are cheaters/liars... you obviously didnt get a kitten thru a byb so i dont see what the comparison is? and im pretty sure without asking that you didnt pay 550 or above for your moggie either!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> But that's your personal opinion, obviously not everyone thinks that way!
> 
> a moggy isn't a bad thing surely! What ever they cost! It's us humans putting a price on a kittens life after all!
> 
> ...


Who said a moggy is a bad thing? This really has nothing to do with mog -v- pedigree. If you or any one else is happy to knowingly - and the key word is *knowingly* - pay £550 for a lovely lil' mog kitten then that's great. The only thing I would find a great pity about that is the money will almost certainly be lining the pockets of someone who truly does not have the welfare of the cats in their at heart.

I do have first hand experience of buying - twice  - from breeders who turned out to be byb's. Long time ago and I was very naive about the process of buying a pedigree kitten. Caused me and my family a lot of heartache, not to mention some huge vet bills which we really struggled with.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

No we didn't! Hubby would never of agreed lol


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Kitty_pig said:


> thats awful TB


I know  when I went 'undercover'! I kept hearing noises, I was in a room with a massive 60inch tv (so you know where the money goes!  ) kids screaming playing on games, then someone on mobilephone, carpet covered in crap, and I mean crap, wallpaper ripped off the walls, the sofa was so bad that she said sit down and I couldnt!

But I head these noises, in the end she lifted up a curtain to revel 2 cats in crates giving birth in this room with all that going on  : :cryin: Literally stopping myself from crying, esp when they brought the kittens out (wernet allowed to see mum - no idea why) 2 limp 5/6 week old kittens just laying there, no go in them, no movement, was quite weird, red eyes sticking together.

from my expereince, anyone who buys from them MUST know that the kitten is not going to make it, hows that normal? they were all stakes up in cages from floor to ceiling, in those hamster cages? covered in matts etc.

also when I first started breeding I was conned, I dont think that I or others say these thinsg for affect, we say it as we want people to learn from our mistakes, I was sold a 'ragdoll' with 'paperwork' the kitten had worms/earmites serve problems, it kept screamin, wasnt allowed to see mum, dad was quickly showed to me through a door? the 'sister' to the kitten looked about 2weeks younger,  found out the next day it was a persian cross ragdoll! went the 2 hours drive back and she did give us our money back, didnt pay us for the vet check on her though, she said 'oh I thought you knew it was a cross, we have got a good market for these we make alot of money' I was like 'no you said gccf paperwork' she shut the door, we walked away!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> I know  when I went 'undercover'! I kept hearing noises, I was in a room with a massive 60inch tv (so you know where the money goes!  ) kids screaming playing on games, then someone on mobilephone, carpet covered in crap, and I mean crap, wallpaper ripped off the walls, the sofa was so bad that she said sit down and I couldnt!
> 
> But I head these noises, in the end she lifted up a curtain to revel 2 cats in crates giving birth in this room with all that going on  : :cryin: Literally stopping myself from crying, esp when they brought the kittens out (wernet allowed to see mum - no idea why) 2 limp 5/6 week old kittens just laying there, no go in them, no movement, was quite weird, red eyes sticking together.
> 
> ...


absolutly disgusting! i hope you reported them!!! i would have. found out there details and sent the gccf after them (although they probably wouldnt do much.... kmt


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shayden said:


> absolutly disgusting! i hope you reported them!!! i would have. found out there details and sent the gccf after them (although they probably wouldnt do much.... kmt


why would the GCCF do anything..no paperwork, was all made up  Said she had show champ studs :lol: we got her closed down, but as I said shes gone onto dogs now : reported her to everything possible!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

if they want money so bad go look for a job. exploiting animals like this, makes me wanna cry


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

rspca? nspca? NSPCC? wwf? donkey aid!!!! bird watchers association??? lool u sure u didnt miss anyone out?


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> We did actually set out looking at shelters but we were a no go as we have two young children and a dog (with no cat experience - the dog not us ) guess we could of fibbed but hey ho we didn't!
> 
> We researched as much as we required to find the breed that would suit us, found a known registered health tested stud who had a one off litter with a registered pedigree pet cat (non tested) colour & sex we were after, to be homed two weeks early due to health of mum, wormed, vet happy etc! Prefix & 5 gen pedigree currently winging it's way here as I'm typing! Great owners, fab mum, didn't meet dad but could arrange at any point, both dam & sire owners very helpful!
> 
> ...


I dont understand how she can be registered if she is from a registered pet Ragdoll, you cannot register kittens unless their mum is on the active register (that is my understanding anyway?)

So they might be sending you a 5 generation pedigree but it might not neccessarily be where Maisie is from. I wouldn't neccessarily say the person you got her from is from a BYB but there is certainly something off about the whole thing whether you're happy or not.

The thing is, getting a healthy kitten is really luck at the end of the day, a moggy can get sick, so can a pedigree but surely if you're going to get an animal that is going to be part of your family for such a long time you would hedge your bets and go to a good breeder who breeds for health and provides a really good standard of care to their kittens?

When I was researching basics about getting a kitten I always found the same things come up, health tested, treated for worms and fleas, vaccinated, registered, and not allowed to go until 12 weeks so anyone that meet any of these things sends a red flag to me because it is just the basics of a good breeder.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

It comes down to more than just papers. Generally the attitude not just towards cats but dogs too is that because its not a pedigree its healthy, no testing needed. 

That paper means that you can trace the cats lines and get in contact with other breeders who helped create your pet to find out if any health conditions, short life spans ect reared their head. Its not pedigree snobbery as I have herd it called many times on here its knowing where your pet came from and what makes it what it is.

I have 3 moggies now, have always mainly had moggies....but not again, I will be sticking with pedigree's from now on, there is nothing a moggie offers that a pedigree doesnt and a pedigree offers (from the right breeder) a traceable line and health tested which is what I want to support. 

I love my mog's more than anything in the world. 

I would not pay £500 for a non registered animal I would question any breeder not registering their offspring....Anyway yeah.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Of course it comes down to more than "just papers".It is the care and the hard work which is put into rearing kittens/puppies that you can be proud of.I will hold my hands up and admit I made a mistake when I bought my Ragdoll kitten.i stupidly thought that the only difference in getting him before he was vaccinated was that i had that to do myself instead of him coming already vaccinated.I know ,now that was only the tip of the iceberg,I love him to bits and have put in a lot of work to get him where he is now.It has been a hard slog and I wish,for his sake ,this had not been necessary,but it was and we are winning.What saddens me is that some who have made mistakes either dont or cant admit it.This does not help the fight to shut down the BYB's.I've learned a very valuable lesson and will,when I can, do my best to stop anyone from making the same mistake.


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## mobykhan (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm sorry I don't know where most of you live but I'm from down south in Berkshire and pedigree kittens here are 1. hard to find and 2. from £450 to £650! I have seen many people selling kittens for £400-£600 with no papers - and going by the real pedigrees, I can see why they get away with it. I'm actually a little shocked that so many on here are so shocked to see it.

Firstly though, I must agree with hollys earlier post - it's peoples own fault for not doing their research properly. Most people have internet these days, or even access to libraries for books! You could research about anything you wanted, and if you were serious about any animal, I would think it would be common sense to look up a little bit about what pet you wanted yes? I accidentally adopted a stray off the street and started researching everything about cats that I could! I learned about the crap food out there and how I can best look after her and even understand her! Even a simple question in google like 'where can I buy a cat' would bring up loads of stories about BYB - there's just so much information on the internet now and I think people are just stupid if they don't or can't be bothered to do their research - especially if they're going to spend £500!

Below is just MY experience and what I learned. 

I began looking for 2 pedigree Ragdoll kittens soon after we adopted Jerry so we could have a bigger kitty family (before her spaying when she fell pregnant!) I did my research and found the registered breeders close to me and up far north too. (I go up to Leeds alot) So I looked at around 10/15 websites and only rang 5 in total and only one sounded at all like she cared. (All these breeders were registered to GCCF and TBRCC or UKRCC by the way.) The first websites that actually put me off had litters 3 or 4 times a year. I found that queens have to be kept in at least 2/3 weeks before giving birth. (I know pedigrees are generally house cats so this may not count.) But lets say they're only fully aware they're pregnant in their last week when they begin looking for nesting areas - we then add on the 12/13 weeks of caring for the new kittens before they go off to their new homes - that totals a queen being bred and busy for 3 and a half months! So if a breeder is breeding 3 times in a year with one queen - thats does seem like she doesn't get enough rest and relaxation for herself at all. And 4 times a year is just taking the piss - and I would just say they're a breeding machine. No wonder people think breeders are out to make money when they see kittens available every quarter! And also yes, I was careful to note actually how many breeding queens these sites had but 2 or 3 - they were all pregnant at the same time or within a month of each other. So it could be easy to cover and say 1 queen is 'resting'.

The 1 breeder who seemed very knowledgable and like she cared answered all my questions and even said she would rather me take two kittens together and give me a huge reduction. I have heard breeders do this before because they rather have kittens go to good homes and even better together with a littermate; but she was the only one to offer it herself! I actually couldn't get her off the phone to be honest! She was happilly going on about all her cats and I thought it was lovely! She did 2 litters per year.

Another breeder I called where I suggested a reduction for 2 kittens myself laughed down the phone and said he could sell them individually for full price. Now it's up to everyone how they choose to take this, but for me - it wasn't about the 'discount' but how much he cared about littermates going together, rather than selling them individually to get as much money as possible.

I was only looking into this for around 2 weeks and learned alot (including Jerry being pregnant!) I'm not saying I know everything about cats - I know barely anything about them compared to so many others of you on here. But I have done my research and alot of what I learned just wasn't good  

Also, reading posts on this forum there is a 'thick air' between people with pedigrees and moggies. I would now never ever buy a pedigree from a breeder nor a moggy either. Not just from my poor results from the potential breeders I looked into, but just because there are so many unwanted pedigrees and moggys out there. 

My Jerry is probably the moggiest of the moggs! But so many people (including 2 friends who are scared of cats and 1 who wouldn't dare normally touch one) complimented how lovely she was and her beautiful manner and her wonderful purring with them (yes I love my Jerry! ) Even when she comes to play with anyone, she never gets her claws out. So in my limited experience, it doesn't matter to me what cat I got, as long as he/she was well socialised from the beggining and I would pay the fee to the shelter for them.


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

dom85 said:


> I dont understand how she can be registered if she is from a registered pet Ragdoll, you cannot register kittens unless their mum is on the active register (that is my understanding anyway?)
> 
> So they might be sending you a 5 generation pedigree but it might not neccessarily be where Maisie is from. I wouldn't neccessarily say the person you got her from is from a BYB but there is certainly something off about the whole thing whether you're happy or not.
> 
> ...


Yet again your making stuff up! The mum is registered with the GCCF as is dad (as is the litter)  
I have not made any mistakes, we have researched & bought a very happy, very healthy cat... I think you just like projecting your own misfortune, maybe had the cat gone to a different home he would of had a different upbringing & turned out differently? Maybe it's different with cats & dogs I dont know! Maybe a 'problem cat' would be a problem in any home! I don't know!
Completely disagree with the 12 week thing! Can't seem to find any categoric evidence or research anywhere (please post if somene has some) I'm far happier she's getting early socialisation where she will be living her life! Socialisation with other kittens to primarily learn bite inhibition has been learnt buy her already! She is use to all household noises & situations etc!

Moggies all seem to be homed at 8 weeks! Why the 4 week difference for pedigrees?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Yet again your making stuff up! The mum is registered with the GCCF as is dad (as is the litter)
> I have not made any mistakes, we have researched & bought a very happy, very healthy cat... I think you just like projecting your own misfortune, maybe had the cat gone to a different home he would of had a different upbringing & turned out differently? Maybe it's different with cats & dogs I dont know! Maybe a 'problem cat' would be a problem in any home! I don't know!
> Completely disagree with the 12 week thing! Can't seem to find any categoric evidence or research anywhere (please post if somene has some) I'm far happier she's getting early socialisation where she will be living her life! Socialisation with other kittens to primarily learn bite inhibition has been learnt buy her already! She is use to all household noises & situations etc!
> 
> Moggies all seem to be homed at 8 weeks! Why the 4 week difference for pedigrees?


put the claws back in love... your post read as if your cat wasnt registered. theres no need to be defensive no1 is being rude to you.

and the reason y moggies are sold at 8 weeks is because people cant be bothered to keep them. it cuts into there profits. all these kittens sold for £20 and £30 if kept for another 4 weeks they would have to pay for there injections which is roughly £70/80 depending on where you live and the "breeders" dont want to spend that much money on them because they will not be able to recoop the costs! there attitude is y keep the litter an extra 5 weeks, im going to have to spend more money feeding them, spend more time on them, cleaniing their litter etc! y not just bang them out as soon as there weened and make a quick buck!

thats y theres such a difference


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## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Yet again your making stuff up! The mum is registered with the GCCF as is dad (as is the litter)
> I have not made any mistakes, we have researched & bought a very happy, very healthy cat... I think you just like projecting your own misfortune, maybe had the cat gone to a different home he would of had a different upbringing & turned out differently? Maybe it's different with cats & dogs I dont know! Maybe a 'problem cat' would be a problem in any home! I don't know!
> Completely disagree with the 12 week thing! Can't seem to find any categoric evidence or research anywhere (please post if somene has some) I'm far happier she's getting early socialisation where she will be living her life! Socialisation with other kittens to primarily learn bite inhibition has been learnt buy her already! She is use to all household noises & situations etc!
> 
> Moggies all seem to be homed at 8 weeks! Why the 4 week difference for pedigrees?


Because the majority of moggy kittens come from people who just 'let' their cat get pregnant by mistake and now suddenly have expensive kittens to raise who they want to get rid of asap because it's easier for them


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Shayden said:


> put the claws back in love... your post read as if your cat wasnt registered. theres no need to be defensive no1 is being rude to you.
> 
> and the reason y moggies are sold at 8 weeks is because people cant be bothered to keep them. it cuts into there profits. all these kittens sold for £20 and £30 if kept for another 4 weeks they would have to pay for there injections which is roughly £70/80 depending on where you live and the "breeders" dont want to spend that much money on them because they will not be able to recoop the costs! there attitude is y keep the litter an extra 5 weeks, im going to have to spend more money feeding them, spend more time on them, cleaniing their litter etc! y not just bang them out as soon as there weened and make a quick buck!
> 
> thats y theres such a difference


Yes exactly.

All my moggies came to me at 8 weeks or under. Martha was sold via a pet shop at 4-5 weeks the vet thought...

Also I have never paid under £50 for a moggie kitten....Martha was £80, Winter £55 and Todd £50. I once got another Moggie which I returned back to the breeder after it was mis-sold but that was £200 again 8 weeks old.

My mum got a kitten a few months ago and it was 8 weeks old and riddled with flea's.


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Yet again your making stuff up! The mum is registered with the GCCF as is dad (as is the litter)
> I have not made any mistakes, we have researched & bought a very happy, very healthy cat... I think you just like projecting your own misfortune, maybe had the cat gone to a different home he would of had a different upbringing & turned out differently? Maybe it's different with cats & dogs I dont know! Maybe a 'problem cat' would be a problem in any home! I don't know!
> Completely disagree with the 12 week thing! Can't seem to find any categoric evidence or research anywhere (please post if somene has some) I'm far happier she's getting early socialisation where she will be living her life! Socialisation with other kittens to primarily learn bite inhibition has been learnt buy her already! She is use to all household noises & situations etc!
> 
> Moggies all seem to be homed at 8 weeks! Why the 4 week difference for pedigrees?


Jeez, why are you so defensive, my post wasn't attack. How am I making stuff up? I didn't say that the parents weren't registered but there is a difference between being registered on the active register and regiestered as a pet (which is what your post says). The way your post reads IMO sounds as if the litter was an accident between a registered stud and a unhealth tested registered pet, in which case their offspring cannot be registered. I can produce a lovely 5 generation pedigree on my PC if I wanted to, so the point was that person you got her from might not be being totally honest with you.

Shayden has already said the reason that moggies are let go at 8 weeks or younger so I wont bother repeating but I will just say that just because you are happy with what happened with Maisie doesn't mean that it should be standard practice or that any of us who want our kittens to have this standard of care are unjustified.

And what the hell does, 'I think you just like projecting your own misfortune' mean?!



holly2009 said:


> We researched as much as we required to find the breed that would suit us, found a *known registered health tested stud who had a one off litter with a registered pedigree pet cat (non tested)* colour & sex we were after, to be homed two weeks early due to health of mum, wormed, vet happy etc! Prefix & 5 gen pedigree currently winging it's way here as I'm typing! Great owners, fab mum, didn't meet dad but could arrange at any point, both dam & sire owners very helpful!
> 
> Not all A* but I know she was super loved that's apparent immediately on meeting her, the owner admitantly said it had
> been a steep learning curve for her & her hubby - both professionals!.....And her last litter!!
> ...


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

also people will sell a moggy saying its very rare or its mum and dad is a pedigree etc for 150 or 200 due to its colour at 8 weeks old or less.... but have done nothing for that kitten, never vet checked, not wormed or defleed, no injections etc and that £200 that they are charging is pure profit! with no regard to the welfare of the kitten... ANY decent breeder knows that they barely break even if there lucky.. they may make afew hundred extra but that would usually go to the cost of there next breeding or paying for a stud etc. most ethical breeders dont do it for the money. they want to improve the breed and have a love for the animals they keep!


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

But where's the evidence research reports etc to say 4 more weeks makes such a big difference?

I'd of thought Bristol or somewhere would have reports etc?

Sorry if I wasn't clear where I sad her parents were both registered & prefix was on it's way thought that kind of covered her GCCF registered status! 

dom85) I think my post was pretty self explanatory, just because you made a mistake and weren't happy doesn't mean we are! We went into knowing everything we needed to know, LOL and yeah it was an accidental mating....the stud escaped from Glasgow got on a bus & drove to Mull because Maisies mums so cute hee hee!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

there is so much evidence to support this... just because you didnt have this misfortune doesnt mean it doesnt exsist. this is exactly the reason y shelters dont let kittens go till 12 weeks moggy or otherwise because its not in there best interest.. its like giving a 2 month old baby proper food instead of milk and saying "ahh dont worry its not gonna harm him"


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

> But where's the evidence research reports etc to say 4 more weeks makes such a big difference?


Wow....
I seem to remember you wanting to breed your dog, if that's your way of thinking I would not advise this. Dogs and cats benefit greatly from time spent with their mother and litter mates. This they will lack greatly if taken away from the litter early. Not only this but major adaption to diet, life style should really be done at 12 weeks.....

Would you take a 4 week old puppy from a breeder? After all its only 4 weeks less...

If the breeder cba keeping the litter until the correct age (8 weeks with dogs and 12 weeks with cats) then they are not worth their salt imo.


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> But where's the evidence research reports etc to say 4 more weeks makes such a big difference?
> 
> I'd of thought Bristol or somewhere would have reports etc?
> 
> ...


You must think I'm someone else then because Arnold is from 2 regsitered ACTIVE and health tested parents, from an excellent breeder who did both vaccinations, flea and worming treatments and came home at 13 weeks thanks very much.

You seem to never answer a question directly so I wont bother from now on. When you first posted I was only trying to make sure that you weren't getting ripped off by some BYB, I didn't have any issues with you as it is so easy to come across these types of breeders.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

cats arnt like dogs... cats at the age of 8 weeks should still be suckling mums milk and may well continue right up until they leave home. from my experience kittens leaving there mum at 12 weeks plus are happier, have a much less fatality rate, and have much less behaviour problems such as being litter trained properly, not scratching etc! also taking a kitten away from mum at 8 weeks is quite a disturbing process on mum, and mum can cry and pine for there kittens at this stage of there life whereas a 12 week old kitten mum is kinda glad for them to go. you may not notice this with byb because they may be kept in cages and in bad conditions where the mum really doesnt care if they go or stay!


thats just my experience


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## Gem16 (Aug 5, 2010)

Shayden said:


> cats arnt like dogs... cats at the age of 8 weeks should still be suckling mums milk and may well continue right up until they leave home. from my experience kittens leaving there mum at 12 weeks plus are happier, have a much less fatality rate, and have much less behaviour problems such as being litter trained properly, not scratching etc! also taking a kitten away from mum at 8 weeks is quite a disturbing process on mum, and mum can cry and pine for there kittens at this stage of there life whereas a 12 week old kitten mum is kinda glad for them to go. you may not notice this with byb because they may be kept in cages and in bad conditions where the mum really doesnt care if they go or stay!
> 
> thats just my experience


And i think your find this is the opinion of anyone who has experience with kittens to be honest! not just 1 kitten, but proper experience in the world of breeding and those are the ones i would go to for trustworthy advice, just personally.
BYB certainly don't need defending by anyone, or at least they shouldn't unless you agree with their ethics! which makes you rather questionable also :blink:


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Apologies Dom85 think I've got you mixed up with someone else.

Were looking into taking her along to the West of Scotland Cat club show on the 3/12 should be fun!

Shetlandlover) I never mentioned my dog, her pups will be fully health tested for PRA and FN (she's already hereditary clear of PRA but we've done the test anyway) total of £289 stud dog will be clear for all the above Inc glaucoma!
Pups will be homed as per KC rules  8 weeks, wormed, vaccinated, vet health checked, 5 gen pedigree & puppy pack! Daily pics of pups taken, no visiting before 6 weeks (depending on health & fitness of parents) 

I can find papers to back up benefits of puppy socialisation up to 8 weeks!

For cats?....


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> I can find papers to back up benefits of puppy socialisation up to 8 weeks!
> 
> For cats?....





> Dorie Wilkins* (*name changed to protect identity) had only been breeding Ragdolls for almost two years, and had produced her second litter. She was approached by a nice young couple who wanted a kitten, but they objected to her policy of selling kittens at twelve weeks of age. They were concerned the kitten would not bond with them. They pointed to newspaper ads advertising kittens 'ready to go' at six or eight weeks. "I let them talk me into it," sighs Wilkins. "I sold kittens at twelve weeks because that's what everyone else seemed to be doing. I didn't really know why." She relented and let one of the kittens go to its new home at seven weeks of age.
> 
> The kitten was returned at ten weeks, weighing less than it had when it had gone to its new home three weeks before. The owners complained that the kitten had the sniffles and chronic diarrhea and wasn't using the litterbox. It hadn't settled in with their resident cat, and the kitten spent much of its time hiding under the couch. "They said they'd never get a purebred cat again, because obviously they're not healthy," Wilkins relates. With veterinary care and a lot of TLC, the kitten was back on its paws in a few weeks. Wilkins waited until this kitten was almost six months old before placing it again.
> 
> ...


right age to send kitten home article



> Why we keep the kittens until they are 12 weeks old:
> 
> Most of us who have had cats have acquired kittens between 6 and 8 weeks of age. They are cute, cute, cute, and most people enjoy having such young kittens to watch them grow and develop. However, we may permanently harm kittens by separating them from their mothers so early. There are important mental, emotional, and developmental milestones that a kitten experiences between 6 and 12 weeks old. Separating the kitten from mother, siblings, and familiar surroundings at that age can cause undue anxiety, stress, and serious medical problems.
> 
> Maternal immunity is the antibodies kittens get in colostrum in the first 18-24 hours of life. After that time, they can no longer absorb large molecules such as antibodies from the gut into the bloodstream. This phenomenon is called "gut closure" and is a protective mechanism to prevent the kittens from absorbing bad guys like viruses and bacteria and toxins. Nursing after 24 hours of age does not provide further systemic immunity. There is some local activity of immunoglobulins in the digestive tract, but no further systemic immunity is acquired. This passively acquired maternal immunity is designed to protect the kitten until it starts to make its own antibodies. Kittens' immune systems develop between eight and twelve weeks of age, as the immunity acquired from their mother is wearing off, the immunity acquired from vaccination is just starting to become effective. During this time, they are more susceptible to various illnesses, such as upper-respiratory problems and diarrhea. Kittens generally receive vaccinations against panleukopenia, rhinotracheitis, and calici viruses at 6, 9, and 12 weeks of age. However, immunity from vaccination does not happen immediately it may take as many as 10 days before the vaccine is effective. Up until this time, kittens receive some measure of immunity through antibodies from their mother's milk, but this is also the age where they are beginning to wean. Their immune system switches from immunity from mother's milk to immunity from vaccination. During this time the kitten less able to fight off other illnesses because the immune system is being taxed already. The stress of going to a new home and being exposed to different germs can make the kitten more susceptible to illness during this time. In addition many social skills are learned form the kittens mother and siblings during this time...this is when they learn "how to be a cat!!!"


Health Issues



> Kittens should never leave a breeder younger than 12 weeks old, and they should have at least one shot. By waiting until 12 weeks of age, your kitten will have a better chance of being healthy and well adjusted. Their immune system will be much stronger so the transition to a new home will be easier for them. The Ragdoll kittens need to stay with their brothers and sisters until 12 weeks of age. During these 12 weeks they can chew on and attack their brothers and sisters instead of you. Your Breeder knows how to train kittens for the best behavior in their new homes.


How to Buy a Healthy Kitten

Shall I find more?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> A
> 
> I can find papers to back up benefits of puppy socialisation up to 8 weeks!
> 
> For cats?....


It doesn't sound as though you have very much experience with cats or kittens so you won't realise that at 8 weeks kittens really are still in the very early stages of development. They are still learning from their litter mates and unlike back yard breeders, the good breeders are in no rush to pass their kittens on and get the cash 

They put their kittens first and owners worthy of their precious kittens ... understand the benefits of waiting


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> They put their kittens first and owners worthy of their precious kittens ... understand the benefits of waiting


Just to add actually that breeders who keep their cats till 12 weeks run the risk of selling them for less or not being able to sell them but take that on because they love their animals and want the best for them. Why would any breeder risk having a whole litter of kittens left with them if there was not any benefit to keeping the kittens until 12 weeks?

Just because ______ from down the street is selling theirs at 8 weeks doesnt mean its right because they are cuter. :


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Yet again your making stuff up! The mum is registered with the GCCF as is dad (as is the litter)
> I have not made any mistakes, we have researched & bought a very happy, very healthy cat... I think you just like projecting your own misfortune, maybe had the cat gone to a different home he would of had a different upbringing & turned out differently? Maybe it's different with cats & dogs I dont know! Maybe a 'problem cat' would be a problem in any home! I don't know!
> Completely disagree with the 12 week thing! Can't seem to find any categoric evidence or research anywhere (please post if somene has some) I'm far happier she's getting early socialisation where she will be living her life! Socialisation with other kittens to primarily learn bite inhibition has been learnt buy her already! She is use to all household noises & situations etc!
> 
> Moggies all seem to be homed at 8 weeks! Why the 4 week difference for pedigrees?


I haven't read any further than your post above at this point but as there's a couple of extra pages, doubtless someone has already ansered your questions.

I don't know, as I'm typing this, that there is any of the evidence you're seeking to support that it's far preferable for kittens to stay with their mother and littermates until 12/13 weeks - but I'm sure there will be plenty to be found on the subject when I go look.

The difference for keeping pedigrees (though in reality there is no difference between mog and pedigree kitten, of course) is twofold but both amount to the same thing. Breeders who register their pedigree kittens are required to sell them with a full course of vaccinations; that can't happen until they are 12 weeks at the earliest. They should also have completed a final course of worming. They receive a full health check by a vet at the 12 week vaccination and ensures the kittens are in good general health and adequately grown for their age. Then there is the socialisation/learning aspect, which you dispute, of being with mum/littermates for those extra few weeks.

All of the above not only hugely benefits the kitten, but it's also no less than anyone paying a considerable sum for a kitten should fully expect.

I fail to see how you can't see the difference and the benefits of this.


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Why on the cat section isn't their a big flashing sticky with this information? surely the very first thing on the finding a kitten page should be age for moggys & pedigrees! Instantly discounting byb, uncaring, unknowledgable hobbyists etc?


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Just to add actually that breeders who keep their cats till 12 weeks run the risk of selling them for less or not being able to sell them but take that on because they love their animals and want the best for them. Why would any breeder risk having a whole litter of kittens left with them if there was not any benefit to keeping the kittens until 12 weeks?
> 
> Just because ______ from down the street is selling theirs at 8 weeks doesnt mean its right because they are cuter. :


Dont really get that, I'd of thought a good breeder would have a waiting list and reserved kittens prior to birth


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Dont really get that, I'd of thought a good breeder would have a waiting list and reserved kittens prior to birth


Yes but it's not a guarantee though, good breeders dont have lots and lots of litters throughout the year so anything can happent to the people on the list, move away, have a baby, change of heart etc. Also, if the people on the list are specific about colour/gender then you might be left with a litter of kittens that dont suit the people on your lists' preferences. Arnold's Mummy only had boys for example.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Why on the cat section isn't their a big flashing sticky with this information? surely the very first thing on the finding a kitten page should be age for moggys & pedigrees! Instantly discounting byb, uncaring, unknowledgable hobbyists etc?


Most likely because the sister site to this one is Pets4Homes. Pets4Homes is the largest free ad site used by "breeders". There are literally hundreds and hundreds of pages of kittens and pups offered for sale and the site attracts what I can only describe as the dregs of both moggy/mongrel pedigree dog/cat breeders. The site must generate an extremely healthy revenue; I seriously doubt the sites' owners are going to display large warning signs re how to avoid byb's when one of their sites consists of ads placed by the very same.


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Most likely because the sister site to this one is Pets4Homes. Pets4Homes is the largest free ad site used by "breeders". There are literally hundreds and hundreds of pages of kittens and pups offered for sale and the site attracts what I can only describe as the dregs of both moggy/mongrel pedigree dog/cat breeders. The site must generate an extremely healthy revenue; I seriously doubt the sites' owners are going to display large warning signs re how to avoid byb's when one of their sites consists of ads placed by the very same.


Eak! And your all still happy to use this site knowing that? I had no dea!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

so now that you know should we assume we wont be seeing any more posts from you on this forum?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Eak! And your all still happy to use this site knowing that? I had no dea!


Truthfully? No, I'm not particularly happy about it. It does make me uncomfortable and I've said that on a previous thread a short while back.

I would very much like to see - and have asked - the Pets4Homes site insist that people placing ads meet a 'minimum standards' criteria. I try not to look at the site too much as some of the ads are appalling. The worst, in my opinion, are the ads offering pregnant dogs/cats. At the VERY least I would like to see those sort of ads refused.


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Shayden said:


> so now that you know should we assume we wont be seeing any more posts from you on this forum?


I don't have an issue with people homing kittens from 8 weeks!
Just hadn't realised the people that do are using a sister sight of somewhere full of BYB! :blink:


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

and if all the people who were against rehoming kittens at 8 weeks went... who would be here to help other people who come here for advice and support? YOU?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> I don't have an issue with people homing kittens from 8 weeks!
> Just hadn't realised the people that do are using a sister sight of somewhere full of BYB! :blink:


hmmm so i would assume you have no issues with breeders who sell there puppies at 5 weeks then... or maybe 4 weeks?

so long as there weened and can eat solid food it doesnt matter about anything else does it!

the mentality of some ppl scare me!...


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

mobykhan said:


> I'm sorry I don't know where most of you live but I'm from down south in Berkshire and pedigree kittens here are 1. hard to find and 2. from £450 to £650! I have seen many people selling kittens for £400-£600 with no papers - and going by the real pedigrees, I can see why they get away with it. I'm actually a little shocked that so many on here are so shocked to see it.
> The first websites that actually put me off had litters 3 or 4 times a year. I found that queens have to be kept in at least 2/3 weeks before giving birth. Another breeder I called where I suggested a reduction for 2 kittens myself laughed down the phone and said he could sell them individually for full price. Now it's up to everyone how they choose to take this, but for me - it wasn't about the 'discount' but how much he cared about littermates going together, rather than selling them individually to get as much money as possible.


Im sorry but this is poo plop! I know many breeders in that area & surrounding it and theirs are £350-400, plus if you really wanted one, just go a bit further out?? Only have too look up breeders in that area, it isnt hard  
Do you mean that these 'breeders' just had 4 litters of kittens a year from many queens, or 4 litters per cat per year? Where are they kept I dont get the 'keeping inside' bit as pedigree queens certainly arent allowed outside! 
well, why should he 'discount' his kittens? It isnt buy one get one half price, they are actualy lives you know...! Personally I love littermates going together, thats my prority, and Once I get to know a person I do all I can for them if they want 2 kittens. But if someone called me and said 'Hi I want two kittens whats the discount' Id be like 'Oh they only care about what they can get off the price!'



holly2009 said:


> Shetlandlover) I never mentioned my dog, her pups will be fully health tested for PRA and FN (she's already hereditary clear of PRA but we've done the test anyway) total of £289 stud dog will be clear for all the above Inc glaucoma!
> Pups will be homed as per KC rules  8 weeks, wormed, vaccinated, vet health checked, 5 gen pedigree & puppy pack! Daily pics of pups taken, no visiting before 6 weeks (depending on health & fitness of parents) I can find papers to back up benefits of puppy socialisation up to 8 weeks!
> For cats?....


I dont understand why you say things like this? Is it just to annoy people create arguments? Or for some sort of effect? Why can you do all this for the dog, but you dont want the same for your cats? Are you going to be breeding your raggie? Was she bought on active or do you have to neuter her at 6months? As respectable & responsible breeders sell with neuter contracts, and dont send any paperwork until after its done 



holly2009 said:


> Why on the cat section isn't their a big flashing sticky with this information? surely the very first thing on the finding a kitten page should be age for moggys & pedigrees! Instantly discounting byb, uncaring, unknowledgable hobbyists etc?


Well, there is info, however 99% of people that come on here already have bought said kitten or have 'accidently' got pregnant kittens/cats on the way, as they dont do any research beforehand, so its possibly a bit pointless as they would be reading it after the fact.



holly2009 said:


> Dont really get that, I'd of thought a good breeder would have a waiting list and reserved kittens prior to birth


Not really, some do waiting/contact list like me, however even with puppies, mum might need a c-section and die and your left hand raising the pups/kittens, or they might all die at the birth, its a 'counting chickens before they hatch' situation, alot of breeders dont advertise until they know the kittens are healthy at 9weeks + or dogs until they are ready to go.

NO good breeder would 'reserve' a pup/kitten prior to the birth, or accept any sort of money, the kitten/pup may not make it, or someone maybe after a certain sex/colour etc



holly2009 said:


> Eak! And your all still happy to use this site knowing that? I had no dea!


I think that more good breeders should advertise on these sites it will give the public a good idea to choose between the good & the bad breeders, then it will give them the choice.


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Shayden said:


> and if all the people who were against rehoming kittens at 8 weeks went... who would be here to help other people who come here for advice and support? YOU?


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Dont really get that, I'd of thought a good breeder would have a waiting list and reserved kittens prior to birth


Waiting lists can vanish within a few days after the birth of the litter, its amazing how flaky people are tbh. You can have the perfect person on your list, good home, willing to wait but once the litters born they have gone out and bought a kitten/puppy thats ready,


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Waiting lists can vanish within a few days after the birth of the litter, its amazing how flaky people are tbh. You can have the perfect person on your list, good home, willing to wait but once the litters born they have gone out and bought a kitten/puppy thats ready,


I suppose some people are just impatient.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I take back my accusation of troll and replace it with 'dumb as a box of rocks'


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Kitty_pig said:


> I suppose some people are just impatient.


Very much so. Aiden's breeder had the whole litter spoken for I myself had been on her list for 4 months yet one the litter was born all but 2 (me and 1 other person) dropped out even her own friend. Waiting lists are only part of the help, the real help is word of mouth.

When ever I get puppy interest I pass them on to either the breed clubs or breeders who have litters or pregnant bitches.

I would be more than happy to be on a waiting list for years for hte right breeder and this is possibly what I will be doing in the future when I decide to get a pedigree cat.


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Very much so. Aiden's breeder had the whole litter spoken for I myself had been on her list for 4 months yet one the litter was born all but 2 (me and 1 other person) dropped out even her own friend. Waiting lists are only part of the help, the real help is word of mouth.
> 
> When ever I get puppy interest I pass them on to either the breed clubs or breeders who have litters or pregnant bitches.
> 
> I would be more than happy to be on a waiting list for years for hte right breeder and this is possibly what I will be doing in the future when I decide to get a pedigree cat.


That is awful  ! My new kittens brothers and sisters are all being given to family and friends. She is a part of an accidental litter, the day she was born I told my friend I would have her, and two other people said they would have a kitten each. One person dropped out last week after stating from day 1 which kitten they wanted  and other people being told they couldn't have him because he was already taken.

Luckily though he is going to my older sister  so he will be very happy there. I can understand the frustration of waiting for a pet to be ready, but if you really love the animal you will wait however long it takes x


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Eak! And your all still happy to use this site knowing that? I had no dea!


Where could there possibly be greater need for those experienced in rescue and cat welfare, as well as responsible breeders to gather and give the benefit of their knowledge?


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Where could there possibly be greater need for those experienced in rescue and cat welfare, as well as responsible breeders to gather and give the benefit of their knowledge?


Because it's all a bit late! Surely it's better to find a way of helping prior to buying an 8 week old kitten rather than hanging about to deal with the problems afterwards! Admirable as it is!
It should be made common knowledge everywhere especially on a cat forum! I only see it coming up on pedigree threads, I've seen numerous members already with cats, getting 8 week kittens! They must have come across the 12 week rule on here surely?

As for responsible breeders, they don't pm people in forums trying to sell kittens!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Because it's all a bit late! Surely it's better to find a way of helping prior to buying an 8 week old kitten rather than hanging about to deal with the problems afterwards! Admirable as it is!
> It should be made common knowledge everywhere especially on a cat forum! I only see it coming up on pedigree threads, I've seen numerous members already with cats, getting 8 week kittens! They must have come across the 12 week rule on here surely?


Some people choose to ignore what is best for their cats. Their reasons for this range from pathetic to almost understandable...

We cant make people do anything, sadly.


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Because it's all a bit late! Surely it's better to find a way of helping prior to buying an 8 week old kitten rather than hanging about to deal with the problems afterwards! Admirable as it is!
> It should be made common knowledge everywhere especially on a cat forum! I only see it coming up on pedigree threads, I've seen numerous members already with cats, getting 8 week kittens! They must have come across the 12 week rule on here surely?
> 
> *As for responsible breeders, they don't pm people in forums trying to sell kittens!*


I find that really difficult to believe.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

They wouldnt randomly PM people trying to sell kittens, but if they saw someone wanting a kitten they had just bred, I dont see why not...


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> They wouldnt randomly PM people trying to sell kittens, but if they saw someone wanting a kitten they had just bred, I dont see why not...


Exactly.
To be honest I have become quite good friends with some people on here and if they were looking for a pup and I had one I would be more than happy to PM and ask if they were interested. Any good breeder would assess and check the homes their litters go to.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I take back my accusation of troll and replace it with 'dumb as a box of rocks'


Why does a good debate have to turn into a personal battle?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Because it's all a bit late! Surely it's better to find a way of helping prior to buying an 8 week old kitten rather than hanging about to deal with the problems afterwards! Admirable as it is!
> It should be made common knowledge everywhere especially on a cat forum! I only see it coming up on pedigree threads, I've seen numerous members already with cats, getting 8 week kittens! They must have come across the 12 week rule on here surely?


It's hard, if not almost impossible, to reach people on an individual basis as a preemptive measure to try and ensure they don't fall foul of byb moggy breeders - there are no guidelines; there's no set place where people can find relevant information. In a nutshell, it's a total free for all.

At least for someone who is considering buying a pedigree and does even the smallest amount of research, they can quite easily find some relevant information. If they set out to look for it of course. A lot of people will put more effort into researching buying a fridge for £150 that'll last a handful of years, over a living, breathing thing that's going to be part of their family for hopefully the best part of 15+ years. The same also, of course, applies to non-pedigree kittens.

Perhaps you too would like to ask Pets4Homes management about re-thinking the sort of ads they accept? As I see it, a site such as this which comes up top on most search engines is reaching an awful lot of people who type 'puppies/kittens for sale' into a browser.


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> They wouldnt randomly PM people trying to sell kittens, but if they saw someone wanting a kitten they had just bred, I dont see why not...


So in about a years time when I have moved in with OH and am after BSH or a raggy someone may contact me? wink wink nudge nudge :lol:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

raggs said:


> Why does a good debate have to turn into a personal battle?


Admittedly, it was a bit personal - naughty gloworm*mushroom. But it made me laugh so much and I think Holly took it pretty well, to her credit 

Conversely, prize for understated rebuttal of the whole thread goes to Taylorlorbaby for "I'm sorry, but this is poo plop".


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

People who think there is no reason for kittens to stay longer than 8 weeks, despite all the information provided and readily available, ARE as i stated, dumb as a box of rocks.

It was entirely on topic to this thread, though based also on previous threads


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> People who think there is no reason for kittens to stay longer than 8 weeks, despite all the information provided and readily available, ARE as i stated, dumb as a box of rocks.
> 
> It was entirely on topic to this thread, though based also on previous threads


I just fail to see why you have to be rude to someone even if they are wrong.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> People who think there is no reason for kittens to stay longer than 8 weeks, despite all the information provided and readily available, ARE as i stated, dumb as a box of rocks.
> 
> It was entirely on topic to this thread, though based also on previous threads


It's quite bad to admit that I laughed just as much the second time around  I dunno how, in all my 51 years, I've never heard that saying.

It was totally on topic and I can see why you conversated about it.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

raggs said:


> I just fail to see why you have to be rude to someone even if they are wrong.


Well put it this way, I doubt you'd want to sell one of your ragdolls to her as she likes to joke about breeding them, solely to piss people off.

You may think its rude, but its true...


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well put it this way, I doubt you'd want to sell one of your ragdolls to her as she likes to joke about breeding them, solely to piss people off.
> 
> You may think its rude, but its true...


You are quite right, i wouldnt sell one of my kittens for breeding, they would be registered on the " non-active " register and and buyer would be asked to sign a contract , I agree i would be pi$$ed off by comments about breeding but i dont think that public abuse is the way to solve it. All im trying to say is by having a go the way you did just causes probs in the forum which we dont need


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

raggs said:


> You are quite right, i wouldnt sell one of my kittens for breeding, they would be registered on the " non-active " register and and buyer would be asked to sign a contract , I agree i would be pi$$ed off by comments about breeding but i dont think that public abuse is the way to solve it. All im trying to say is by having a go the way you did just causes probs in the forum which we dont need


I wish it was actually me causing the problems...


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Come on guys lets not end up with this thread locked, it holds some great information on why its important for kittens to stay with the breeder until 12 weeks.


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

Och why did you lot quote old mushyworm I've got her on ignore so I dont read her posts! Doh! You lot!


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

raggs said:


> I just fail to see why you have to be rude to someone even if they are wrong.


see thats the beauty of internet forums, you found it rude, i found it refereshingly honest (and very funny too)

i get so fed up reading posts with obvious wrongs in them and everybody pussyfooting around the wrongs, like theyre walking on broken glass, scared to offend. its so tiring. read a post yesterday, someone with new kittens left a window open, a cat got in through open window and mauled a kitten to death, other people come in and say "well its not your fault". i dont get that, because it IS the owners fault

give me refreshingly honest any day


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Added to which - and I know this sounds a little tit for tat, school playground stuff but I can't help myself because I think it needs pointing out - the comment was no more or less honest than the very many personal insults that holly was dishing out the other day on a separate thread. that i think there was actual truth in only one party's honestly expressed opinion is neither here nor there...

But why is it always the same group of members who are criticised for being insulting, whereas as the supposed 'victims' can let loose a string of so called personal abuse without comment from the forum police type members?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I agree. at least my posts were based on actual statements made by Holly. Her accusations that I should not be left in charge of children in my job (primary school teacher) and that she felt sorry for the children in my care, was out of line, IMO. Sadly the thread was locked before I could respond to that.

Therefore I could have been a lot harsher than just 'dumb'


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## Guest (May 14, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Added to which - and I know this sounds a little tit for tat, school playground stuff but I can't help myself because I think it needs pointing out - the comment was no more or less honest than the very many personal insults that holly was dishing out the other day on a separate thread. that i think there was actual truth in only one party's honestly expressed opinion is neither here nor there...
> 
> But why is it always the same group of members who are criticised for being insulting, whereas as the supposed 'victims' can let loose a string of so called personal abuse without comment from the forum police type members?


Because were new & old members should know better! :nono:

And I'm guessing it's the usual suspects that are always insulting stirrers getting threads closed!

Yes a very small number of my (previous) comments were purely because certain people are so very crude & rude it's only
fair to give what you receive! (not this thread) and I actually made ONE personnel comment! Nah nah! LOL

I'm not going to let a minority ruin it for me! Thats their problem and the "power of ignore" (which is slightly flawed but hey you can't have everything)


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> Because it's all a bit late! Surely it's better to find a way of helping prior to buying an 8 week old kitten rather than hanging about to deal with the problems afterwards! Admirable as it is!
> It should be made common knowledge everywhere especially on a cat forum!


Then make sure you do your bit here,to highlight the importance of not buying such young kittens. I am sure _positive_ input from you would be welcome


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Come on guys lets not end up with this thread locked, it holds some great information on why its important for kittens to stay with the breeder until 12 weeks.


I agree, it's silly to let Holy ruin a decent thread 

Unfortunately I have just heard of someone who has just bought a tiny pedigree kitten at almost 9 weeks ... what makes it even worse, they have not time for their dog ... poor kitten 

I think it's ridiculous, but will keep communication open for when they get sick of it, hopefully will be able to get it a rescue place. I'll do my best to see it is neutered ... can't do anymore


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't understand. Do you mean new members can be insulting but old ones can't? Sort of like one learns manners in life only when you join PF? That's a novel idea. 

I'm sure the minority won't ruin the forum for you. You have the company of plenty of others here who share your views. They come and go frequently.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Because were new & old members should know better! :nono:


for anyone who is in any doubt about the accuracy or fairness of the "dumbs as a box of rocks" statement, surely the above should remove any trace of doubts from their minds


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

holly2009 said:


> Because were new & old members should know better! :nono:
> 
> And I'm guessing it's the usual suspects that are always insulting stirrers getting threads closed!
> 
> ...


I can say you made at least two personal comments. one was to say those who disagreed with you including myself (and I wasnt nasty) where sad women with basically nothing better to do this was repeated from yet another thread. Then you insulted Gloworm mushroom insulting her as a teacher.

Add to this a spectacular fail of a flounce calling everyone who disagreed with you bullies and removing pictures of your beautiful raggy, then saying the people on the dog forum where nicer, then saying you had supportive pm's and the support of a mod....shall i go on? And this was when nobody was rude to you. Alot just didnt agree, it was actually a really good thread to begin with.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

i really dont want this thread closed or deleted! it has alot of useful into and what to look out for in a BYB ... so can we please stay on topic. im sure holly would love for it to be closed and then complain that we are bullies and the like but if we can ignore her and focus on the issue at hand....


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Shayden said:


> i really dont want this thread closed or deleted! it has alot of useful into and what to look out for in a BYB ... so can we please stay on topic. im sure holly would love for it to be closed and then complain that we are bullies and the like but if we can ignore her and focus on the issue at hand....


 I agree, some members (generalising) seem to "collect" closed threads, maybe they carve them into their bed post


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

my apologies if off topic


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

holly2009 said:


> As for responsible breeders, they don't pm people in forums trying to sell kittens!


I would not send pm's too anyone wanting a Ragdoll, I would say in the thread that I had kittens and the person could email me for details or I would say i know of a breeder with kittens.



Kitty_pig said:


> So in about a years time when I have moved in with OH and am after BSH or a raggy someone may contact me? wink wink nudge nudge :lol:


 Let me know the date, I'm sure I could breed kittens too coinside with your moving in day..... :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:



raggs said:


> You are quite right, i wouldnt sell one of my kittens for breeding, they would be registered on the " non-active " register and and buyer would be asked to sign a contract , I agree i would be pi$$ed off by comments about breeding but i dont think that public abuse is the way to solve it. All im trying to say is by having a go the way you did just causes probs in the forum which we dont need


Find it hard breeding from any kittens we sell as they are neutered at 14 weeks, so don't leave here till they are 15 weeks old (that will probably start another debate :glare: )


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

Steverags said:


> I would not send pm's too anyone wanting a Ragdoll, I would say in the thread that I had kittens and the person could email me for details or I would say i know of a breeder with kittens.
> 
> Let me know the date, I'm sure I could breed kittens too coinside with your moving in day..... :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
> 
> Find it hard breeding from any kittens we sell as they are neutered at 14 weeks, so don't leave here till they are 15 weeks old (that will probably start another debate :glare: )


This may be a little off topic but have you ever had any problems woth early neutering? I'm looking at getting a ragdoll later in the year and although I have chosen the breeder i want and am waiting for kittens to be born I have also been looking at others just in case and a couple of them also neuter before they go to their new homes which on one hand I think its great as its over and done with but on the other ive read somw research that says it can cause urinary tract problems especially in males but its difficult to get a good picture of how much of a problem this is and how often it happens etc. Have you always done it this way? Since I've read that research I've just been a bit reluctant and not sure if I would be able to stop wondering if it will cause problems later down the line.


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## Kitty_pig (Apr 9, 2011)

Steverags said:


> I would not send pm's too anyone wanting a Ragdoll, I would say in the thread that I had kittens and the person could email me for details or I would say i know of a breeder with kittens.
> 
> * Let me know the date, I'm sure I could breed kittens too coinside with your moving in day.....* :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:
> 
> Find it hard breeding from any kittens we sell as they are neutered at 14 weeks, so don't leave here till they are 15 weeks old (that will probably start another debate :glare: )


:lol: God Im not that bad am I? :lol:


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

ive personally noticed.... that when a kitten is nutured as a kitten ... as an adult... they dont look as they should do! eg size, muscle mass etc 

it might just be the cats ive seen


personally for me... i wouldnt nuter so young! my last boy i waited till he was 10 months!


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

The only problem we've had is one of the girls splitting her stitch when she jumped about too much, they would only get neutered if their bits have dropped so too speak, if the vet can't find them then they get sold with a neutering contract, we find the kittens bounce back so much quicker, sorry off topic.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> ive personally noticed.... that when a kitten is nutured as a kitten ... as an adult... they dont look as they should do! eg size, muscle mass etc
> 
> it might just be the cats ive seen
> 
> personally for me... i wouldnt nuter so young! my last boy i waited till he was 10 months!


They do grow differently, but then its the pay off between people not neutering them and the problems that can cause, to an aesthetic difference.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Shayden said:


> ive personally noticed.... that when a kitten is nutured as a kitten ... as an adult... they dont look as they should do! eg size, muscle mass etc
> 
> it might just be the cats ive seen
> 
> personally for me... i wouldnt nuter so young! my last boy i waited till he was 10 months!


A picture of Jack at 10 months old, he was 11lb when this pic was taken, he was neutered at 14 weeks.


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

holly2009 said:


> Completely disagree with the 12 week thing! Can't seem to find any categoric evidence or research anywhere (please post if somene has some) I'm far happier she's getting early socialisation where she will be living her life! Socialisation with other kittens to primarily learn bite inhibition has been learnt buy her already! She is use to all household noises & situations etc!
> 
> *Moggies all seem to be homed at 8 weeks! Why the 4 week difference for pedigrees?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> They do grow differently, but then its the pay off between people not neutering them and the problems that can cause, to an aesthetic difference.


i agree... if i wasnt breeding and just wanted a pet id defintly nuter.. i just personally wouldnt do it so young!!

most people when they see and fall in love with a breed, they would usually be seeing pics of an adult. either entire male or mayb an ex stud/queen. yes i would love my cat regardless.. but i would also want it to look like all those cats i admire as well. and to hopefully have the potential to show a nutered/spayed cat


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Steverags said:


> A picture of Jack at 10 months old, he was 11lb when this pic was taken, he was neutered at 14 weeks.


hes a beauty

but i guess it depends on the individual kitten/cat .. my boy is 5.5kg at 14 months! and im still hoping he will fill out a tiny bit more! might be wishful thinking lol i dunno!

but i do think he wouldnt look as.... manly (for lack of a better word) of i nutered him at 14 weeks


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Shayden said:


> i agree... if i wasnt breeding and just wanted a pet id defintly nuter.. i just personally wouldnt do it so young!!
> 
> most people when they see and fall in love with a breed, they would usually be seeing pics of an adult. either entire male or mayb an ex stud/queen. yes i would love my cat regardless.. but i would also want it to look like all those cats i admire as well. and to hopefully have the potential to show a nutered/spayed cat


Welcome too see neuter and entire here, we have both....lol....


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shayden said:


> i agree... if i wasnt breeding and just wanted a pet id defintly nuter.. i just personally wouldnt do it so young!!
> 
> most people when they see and fall in love with a breed, they would usually be seeing pics of an adult. either entire male or mayb an ex stud/queen. yes i would love my cat regardless.. but i would also want it to look like all those cats i admire as well. and to hopefully have the potential to show a nutered/spayed cat


you Have to do it before the become sexually mature, leaving it later than 6 months is a HUGE no no for me, unless you want problems later on with spraying boys & girls & girls calling etc, no reason not to do it at 6months.

some british shiorthairs dont show the fuller gowls face if neutered, but then id rather have a cat that didnt scream for girls and spray up everything then a gowly face lol!

spraying cats is the biggest reason for cats ended up in rescue, then you have the 'accidental litters' at 7months + so for me 6months is MAX neutering time.

You should see my neuters they are flippin Massive!!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Steverags said:


> Welcome too see neuter and entire here, we have both....lol....


oh i have no doubt that your both nutered and entire toms are big and lovely.. but dont u ever think tht if ur nutered boy as an adult is... say 5kg... that as an entire tom he might have filled out even more and maybe been 6kg for example


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Shayden said:


> oh i have no doubt that your both nutered and entire toms are big and lovely.. but dont u ever think tht if ur nutered boy as an adult is... say 5kg... that as an entire tom he might have filled out even more and maybe been 6kg for example


I don't think so, Ragdolls mature right up till they are 3-4 years old, neutering them early helps them too grow quicker as the growth plate isn't surpressed by the hormones of an entire, jack is now 12lb wheras his brother who is our new stud boy is around 9-10lb


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

Steverags said:


> The only problem we've had is one of the girls splitting her stitch when she jumped about too much, they would only get neutered if their bits have dropped so too speak, if the vet can't find them then they get sold with a neutering contract, we find the kittens bounce back so much quicker, sorry off topic.


I'm just an overprotective mummy, hopefully everything will work out with the litter I'm waiting on and i'll get them done once they're home. Thank you though, makes me feel bettee if i end up going to another breeder who does it early.


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## dom85 (Apr 5, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> you Have to do it before the become sexually mature, leaving it later than 6 months is a HUGE no no for me, unless you want problems later on with spraying boys & girls & girls calling etc, no reason not to do it at 6months.
> 
> some british shiorthairs dont show the fuller gowls face if neutered, but then id rather have a cat that didnt scream for girls and spray up everything then a gowly face lol!
> 
> ...


Hmm, think i'll have another word with my vet then, when I fook Arnold in for his check and flea/working stuff they said they do it between 6 and 7 months but I would prefer between 5 and 6 at a push really as he's definitely all there, has been since about a week after i bought him home and I most definitely don't want him spraying everywhere!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Steverags said:


> I don't think so, Ragdolls mature right up till they are 3-4 years old, neutering them early helps them too grow quicker as the growth plate isn't surpressed by the hormones of an entire, jack is now 12lb wheras his brother who is our new stud boy is around 9-10lb


does the same go for british shorthairs? eg they stop growing at 3/4

ive never experienced spraying so i really dont know how bad it is lol but from what ive read.... its baddd

i thought that toms start spraying etc at 10 months to a year so if i was to neuter just before this time it would be ok?


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Toms could start spraying anytime from 6 months on, neutering before they start would be good, once they start it may not be as easy too stop.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

dom85 said:


> Hmm, think i'll have another word with my vet then, when I fook Arnold in for his check and flea/working stuff they said they do it between 6 and 7 months but I would prefer between 5 and 6 at a push really as he's definitely all there, has been since about a week after i bought him home and I most definitely don't want him spraying everywhere!


Ive never heard any vet say after 6 months, infact most of my kittens that go get neutered withinm 6-8weeks of leaving me, as long as they are healthy and a good weight, most vets go on weight now!



Shayden said:


> does the same go for british shorthairs? eg they stop growing at 3/4
> ve never experienced spraying so i really dont know how bad it is lol but from what ive read.... its baddd
> i thought that toms start spraying etc at 10 months to a year so if i was to neuter just before this time it would be ok?


nope! another 'myth' And as well as spraying they can also crap everywhere to attract mates, my firends 2 studs do!! And IVe had girls spray & crap in my house (lucky she was only in one room!) I trod in it :blink: : I was NOT pleased!!! :nono: :cryin:

And the smell, well, it is so powerful that it takes your breath away, its overpowering and shocking, and you can smell it instantly as soon as you walk in the room you KNow that someone has sprayed, you never get rid of it either!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

ok . u learn sumink new every day lol everyone i meet seems amazed when they know i have an entire tom living in my house (not in a cattery or outside) and he doesnt spray! when they come to my home i think they expect a very strong odour when comming to my house and are plesently suprised... only bad smell i have is when they poo lol and im hoping that the raw feeding will soon put an end to that also


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

Shayden said:


> there is so much evidence to support this... just because you didnt have this misfortune doesnt mean it doesnt exsist. this is exactly the reason y shelters dont let kittens go till 12 weeks moggy or otherwise because its not in there best interest.. its like giving a 2 month old baby proper food instead of milk and saying "ahh dont worry its not gonna harm him"


sorry to post this so late on but i've only just read it. RSPCA rehome at 8 weeks, and give you vouchers for the kittens vacs and neutering at 6 months. Just thort id pop that in, whether its different in other areas or with other rescues I dont know


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

dom85 said:


> Hmm, think i'll have another word with my vet then, when I fook Arnold in for his check and flea/working stuff they said they do it between 6 and 7 months but I would prefer between 5 and 6 at a push really as he's definitely all there, has been since about a week after i bought him home and I most definitely don't want him spraying everywhere!


my vets neuter a male as long as their testicles are big enough? not sure what that means but I suppose they know what they're looking for


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

loz83 said:


> sorry to post this so late on but i've only just read it. RSPCA rehome at 8 weeks, and give you vouchers for the kittens vacs and neutering at 6 months. Just thort id pop that in, whether its different in other areas or with other rescues I dont know


ive never rehomed thru rspca! at battersea dogs home its not 8 weeks...


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shayden said:


> ok . u learn sumink new every day lol everyone i meet seems amazed when they know i have an entire tom living in my house (not in a cattery or outside) and he doesnt spray! when they come to my home i think they expect a very strong odour when comming to my house and are plesently suprised... only bad smell i have is when they poo lol and im hoping that the raw feeding will soon put an end to that also


how many girls do you have...


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

1 queen 1 kitten! ive studded him out 4 times tho


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Steverags said:


> A picture of Jack at 10 months old, he was 11lb when this pic was taken, he was neutered at 14 weeks.


What do you think of my boy in the pic below! 



Shayden said:


> hes a beautyut i guess it depends on the individual kitten/cat .. my boy is 5.5kg at 14 months! and im still hoping he will fill out a tiny bit more! might be wishful thinking lol i dunno! But i do think he wouldnt look as.... manly (for lack of a better word) of i nutered him at 14 weeks


I recieved this picture a few days ago, I was mega chuffed as he is from my very first litter   His MASSIVE! His a hell of alot bigger than my stud boy, buy a good 5lb! :blink: He was neutered at 4 months old!
His very impressive to, I think that he is stunning! He is a red mitted  :001_wub:


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> What do you think of my boy in the pic below!
> 
> I recieved this picture a few days ago, I was mega chuffed as he is from my very first litter   His MASSIVE! His a hell of alot bigger than my stud boy, buy a good 5lb! :blink: He was neutered at 4 months old!
> His very impressive to, I think that he is stunning! He is a red mitted  :001_wub:


He's a little bruiser.... :smile: I find all neuters are a lot bigger than entires, if you look at some of our girls you would wonder how kittens so big ever came from her....:huh:


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> What do you think of my boy in the pic below!
> 
> I recieved this picture a few days ago, I was mega chuffed as he is from my very first litter   His MASSIVE! His a hell of alot bigger than my stud boy, buy a good 5lb! :blink: He was neutered at 4 months old!
> His very impressive to, I think that he is stunning! He is a red mitted  :001_wub:


gorgus cat! its as if you guys are trying to make me want ragdolls as well lol


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Shayden said:


> gorgus cat! its as if you guys are trying to make me want ragdolls as well lol


Oh damn, you wait till I get home too my photos.....


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Gratch said:


> From what I recall, all unregistered cats = moggies whether their parents were the same breed of pedigree or not right?


I'd call an unregistered cat from pedigree parents an unregistered pedigree. The thing that makes it difficult is that there are a lot of people out there who (despite the fact that they would never consider paying good money for a cat) assume their pretty cat must be a pedigree because she has some vauge resemblance to one, so in the end they convince themselves that she really is a Bengal (the current favourite) if she's a tabby, or a Persian or Maine Coon if she's longhaired, etc. Add to that the huge number of people who seem genuinely to be confused about the difference between "British Shorthair" and "Domestic Shorthair" and the difficulty becomes clear. Some of these people really do believe what they are advertising, I recall once contacting someone on preloved who was advertising a blue eyed Burmese, breaking the news to her very gently that the cat was not Burmese, and she was so adamant that it was that she reported me for harrassment (and needless to say the ad was not removed)

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I have had first hand at BYBs, even been sent to invesitage one, and she swore her cats were this and that, the amount of people calling begging me & other breeders in my area for help was un-real, the kittens were dropped dead from 1 hour from getting them home to 2 weeks later.
> 
> selling them at 6weeks, barely moving, yet she swore thay all had paperwork.


People saw these supposedly healthy kittens barely moving and just assumed they were sleepy?? I suppose all one can say to that (other than the obvious things to say about the breeder) is that a fool and his money are soon parted 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mobykhan said:


> The first websites that actually put me off had litters 3 or 4 times a year. I found that queens have to be kept in at least 2/3 weeks before giving birth. (I know pedigrees are generally house cats so this may not count.) But lets say they're only fully aware they're pregnant in their last week when they begin looking for nesting areas - we then add on the 12/13 weeks of caring for the new kittens before they go off to their new homes - that totals a queen being bred and busy for 3 and a half months! So if a breeder is breeding 3 times in a year with one queen - thats does seem like she doesn't get enough rest and relaxation for herself at all. And 4 times a year is just taking the piss - and I would just say they're a breeding machine. No wonder people think breeders are out to make money when they see kittens available every quarter! And also yes, I was careful to note actually how many breeding queens these sites had but 2 or 3 - they were all pregnant at the same time or within a month of each other. So it could be easy to cover and say 1 queen is 'resting'.


I hoenstly doubt whether four litters a year from one queen is even possible, and having queens kitten at the same time is very common. First, many breeders like to have a backup available in case one queen cannot or will not feed her kittens and second, it just does seem to be natural for queens to call together - and bear in mind that most have a "closed season" in the autumn when they won't call at all, that will certainly apply to queens kept in outdoor accommodation.

Liz


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Steverags said:


> Oh damn, you wait till I get home too my photos.....


oh you mean horrible person!!!! i was delighted going thru your videos yesterday lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

holly2009 said:


> Dont really get that, I'd of thought a good breeder would have a waiting list and reserved kittens prior to birth


Only very sought after breeders of very sought after breeds. The drop-out rate, in my experience, between people saying they will be over this afternoon and them actually turning up is something like 50%. The drop-out rate if they have four months or more to wait must be something like 90%. Total waste of time even trying to get sales at that stage. Not to mention the fact that you have no idea how many will be in the litter, what gender or (often) colour they will be, and there is always the possibility that you might lose one or more, yes, even at 8 weeks they can more or less drop dead.

Liz


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

lizward said:


> even at 8 weeks they can more or less drop dead.
> 
> Liz


^^^^^ another good reason for 6-8 week kittens not to be sold! and for people to wait until 13 weeks


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't know anything about ragdolls, but with regards to neutering, I've always been told that in BSH that it can stunt boys development if you neuter to early.

One of the key feature of a British Boy is his large head and full cheeks. Apparently neutering to early can prevent them filling out and boys end up with slightly smaller more "girly" heads. I've certainly seen evidence of that on the bench. Some of the most successful male neuters weren't neutered until they were at least 18 months old. With regards to girls, I don't think there is as much difference between entire and neutered ladies.

But with regards to physical size, yes I've seen some massive neuters. 
I'd be interested to hear if any other BSH breeders have first hand experience of this.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Shayden said:


> ^^^^^ another good reason for 6-8 week kittens not to be sold! and for people to wait until 13 weeks


Absolutely. They are incredibly vulnerable between 6 and 8 weeks, in my experience. Miss diarrhoea and they can be dead in a day - even if you stop the diarrhoea and get them rehydrated and eating again, the problem is (according to one vet I spoke to) that in such young kittens sometimes the infection goes to the kidneys and that's that.

Liz


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

holly2009 said:


> Dont really get that, I'd of thought a good breeder would have a waiting list and reserved kittens prior to birth


It seems that waiting lists are FAR more common in the dog world. I believe dogs tend to have larger litters so it would be less advisable to consider breeding unless you already know where you are going to home the puppies.

I'm probably wrong but it's probably also easier to predict what colours your are going to get. In cats there seem to be so many variables depending on the breed. But to be honest, I know nothing about dog breeding, so happy to be corrected...

In my experience few cat breeders start out with a waiting list.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

from what ive read.... at that point (5-8 weeks) because they would be eating solids as well and not so much of mums milk most of the anitbodies are gone now! and its usually at that point that a kitten gets ill. especially during the weaning period! when i was 17 when i didnt know any better i bought a so called 8 week old kitten. 2 days later he had to b pts! his body was just FLAT! i cant explain it! and the vet put him to sleep the same day i got him i went to the vet and they weighed him at 490g and was told he doubt the kitten is past 5 weeks!

when i went back to the BYB she said she doesnt sell her kittens until they weigh at least 500g 

now looking at all the info i know.. im quite disgusted! a 500g kitten!.... and then her story changed and she said it was a 6 week old not 8 week!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> from what ive read.... at that point (5-8 weeks) because they would be eating solids as well and not so much of mums milk most of the anitbodies are gone now! and its usually at that point that a kitten gets ill. especially during the weaning period! when i was 17 when i didnt know any better i bought a so called 8 week old kitten. 2 days later he had to b pts! his body was just FLAT! i cant explain it! and the vet put him to sleep the same day i got him i went to the vet and they weighed him at 490g and was told he doubt the kitten is past 5 weeks!
> 
> when i went back to the BYB she said she doesnt sell her kittens until they weigh at least 500g
> 
> now looking at all the info i know.. im quite disgusted! a 500g kitten!.... and then her story changed and she said it was a 6 week old not 8 week!


Its awful isnt it  I have also heard that immunity is lowest at 6-8 weeks. Plus they wont be vaccinated until 9 and 12... vaccinations cost money, it is little wonder why people want rid of kittens then at 8 weeks


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Its awful isnt it  I have also heard that immunity is lowest at 6-8 weeks. Plus they wont be vaccinated until 9 and 12... vaccinations cost money, it is little wonder why people want rid of kittens then at 8 weeks


we might not be able to stop them all... but at the very least we can educate some people into not making the same mistake again


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> we might not be able to stop them all... but at the very least we can educate some people into not making the same mistake again


One can only hope...


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## Guest (May 15, 2011)

Shayden said:


> we might not be able to stop them all... but at the very least we can educate some people into not making the same mistake again


For every smart person who turns down an 8 week old there will be 100 who think they are extra cute at that age and fund idiot breeders. But at least that 1 wont make that mistake.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> For every smart person who turns down an 8 week old there will be 100 who think they are extra cute at that age and fund idiot breeders. But at least that 1 wont make that mistake.


This is something I don't understand at all really. I got my Gloworm at 14 weeks, and he was TINY. (I got Mush at 14 weeks also and he was a big fat bum lol!)

I couldnt have wanted a tinier cat! When I went in the breeder picked him up and let me hold him, I was SO scared I would hurt him he was so small. I don't think I'd dare go NEAR a 6-8 week old kitten! Itd be SO tiny...

Plus when I got him home he was always running under my feet so got 'walk kicked' a couple of times (felt terrible!) but I cannot imagine how I would have felt if it was smaller!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

I think it's only once they have bought a well socialised and brought up kitten and brought it home at home at 13 weeks that some people can see the difference. I reared my first litter last year and it was a big learning experience - all my kitten buyers saw a huge difference in the kittens' confidence and general socialisation from their first visit at 6-8 weeks and picking them up at 13 weeks and my kittens are uber confident when dinky but even so there was a marked difference.

My current litter are 5 weeks 3 days old and met their new family yesterday and I am so fortunate to have found such a brilliant couple for the babies. They fully appreciate all the work which goes into raising happy healthy confident kittens - I would never let mine go early. One of the kittens hasn't started weaning yet although both perfectly potty trained. With only 2 kits weaning tends to be later..... I can't imagine the stress it would place the kittens under if I rehomed them at 6-8 weeks


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

Soupie said:


> I think it's only once they have bought a well socialised and brought up kitten and brought it home at home at 13 weeks that some people can see the difference. I reared my first litter last year and it was a big learning experience - all my kitten buyers saw a huge difference in the kittens' confidence and general socialisation from their first visit at 6-8 weeks and picking them up at 13 weeks and my kittens are uber confident when dinky but even so there was a marked difference.
> 
> My current litter are 5 weeks 3 days old and met their new family yesterday and I am so fortunate to have found such a brilliant couple for the babies. They fully appreciate all the work which goes into raising happy healthy confident kittens - I would never let mine go early. One of the kittens hasn't started weaning yet although both perfectly potty trained. With only 2 kits weaning tends to be later..... I can't imagine the stress it would place the kittens under if I rehomed them at 6-8 weeks


We had a kitten last year that wouldn't wean till it was 7 weeks old.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Steverags said:


> He's a little bruiser.... :smile: I find all neuters are a lot bigger than entires, if you look at some of our girls you would wonder how kittens so big ever came from her....:huh:


haha I know!!! Megs boy, I swear was bigger than her, we kept him until 15weeks old, at 8weeks he was 1kg :blink: so you can imagine how big he was, he dwarfed her lol!! I was like 'where the hell did you come from!!' :blink: :lol: Ellie also dwarfs her mum, Meg such a gorgeous cat but must be on the tiny side, to produce such big kits aswell! :crazy:



Shayden said:


> gorgus cat! its as if you guys are trying to make me want ragdolls as well lol


haha its suttle sub concious mind bending stuff, you seriously think there is a picture of a cute kitten here dont you?! Nooo.....its all in your mind.....   











lizward said:


> I'd call an unregistered cat from pedigree parents an unregistered pedigree. The thing that makes it difficult is that there are a lot of people out there who (despite the fact that they would never consider paying good money for a cat) assume their pretty cat must be a pedigree because she has some vauge resemblance to one, so in the end they convince themselves that she really is a Bengal (the current favourite) if she's a tabby, or a Persian or Maine Coon if she's longhaired, etc. Add to that the huge number of people who seem genuinely to be confused about the difference between "British Shorthair" and "Domestic Shorthair" and the difficulty becomes clear. Some of these people really do believe what they are advertising, I recall once contacting someone on preloved who was advertising a blue eyed Burmese, breaking the news to her very gently that the cat was not Burmese, and she was so adamant that it was that she reported me for harrassment (and needless to say the ad was not removed)
> Liz


that annoys me, I had something delivered a while back and he see Jake and asked 'whats that' I said 'a cat'  haha he said 'what breed?' I said 'ragdoll' he said 'I have one of those, was given it for free, how much do they cost!' I was like 'pedigree health tested (my usual lines!) about £350-400?) He said 'wow bargain! And we got ours free!' I was like 'oh...what colour is he?' he said 'Black and white' ......... :blink: : : 
me 'erm...hate to tell you this....' 

Then the bengal, everything with 'spots' is a bengal. nevermind the other breeds with spots, or the fact moggies have them...oh no its a bengal!

Then the people advertising ginger green eyed moggies as pure ragdoll studs...just amazes me who beleives this tosh!



lizward said:


> People saw these supposedly healthy kittens barely moving and just assumed they were sleepy?? I suppose all one can say to that (other than the obvious things to say about the breeder) is that a fool and his money are soon parted Liz


ive no idea  you couldnt miss it they were hanging there like they were drugged not moving, she wouldnt put them on the floor she held them then handed them to me, if she put them on the floor, they wouldnt have run and played just layed there  
The people that bought 2 at £250 each : were in the vets 1 hour later, cost them in the hundreds and he died that night, the next one I think it was 3 days later or a week later. they then ended up going to my friend and buying two for £400 each, who are now 2years old! If they had just done that in the first place woiuldnt have had that heartache, funded that person, or lost all of that money, and the reason they bought them I think was they were £250 :



Dozymoo said:


> I don't know anything about ragdolls, but with regards to neutering, I've always been told that in BSH that it can stunt boys development if you neuter to early.
> 
> One of the key feature of a British Boy is his large head and full cheeks. Apparently neutering to early can prevent them filling out and boys end up with slightly smaller more "girly" heads. I've certainly seen evidence of that on the bench. Some of the most successful male neuters weren't neutered until they were at least 18 months old. With regards to girls, I don't think there is as much difference between entire and neutered ladies.
> 
> ...


oh...pish posh..........lol!  I know people say that but if its pet, surely the health coem first instead of a big old face....Plus look at my boy.......neutered at 5 months of age shown here at 1 year old...you telling me he doesnt looking full face british??  gota remember though 99% of people want pets, and nothing to do with showing or breeding.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I reared my first litter last year and it was a big learning experience - all my kitten buyers saw a huge difference in the kittens' confidence and general socialisation from their first visit at 6-8 weeks and picking them up at 13 weeks


Unless you've done it it's almost impossible to describe isn't it :smile: The difference between 9 and 12/13 weeks is off the scale. Those people who want a very young kitten because they believe it will 'bond' with them better couldn't be more wrong. Confident kittens bond with humans. I've raised the odd kitten which needed hand feeding and special care from birth so presumably those should have an unbreakable and lifelong bond with me. Never have they looked backwards as they left me at 13 weeks to go and bond with their forever families.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> oh...pish posh..........lol!  I know people say that but if its pet, surely the health coem first instead of a big old face....Plus look at my boy.......neutered at 5 months of age shown here at 1 year old...you telling me he doesnt looking full face british??  gota remember though 99% of people want pets, and nothing to do with showing or breeding.


Yes, health absolutely is more important than appearance. I'm never going to disagree with that  and I know pet buyers aren't looking for show winning looks. They're looking for a new family member to love and cherish.

But as I said, I'm my experience British boys who remain entire longer do develop larger heads and cheeks.

I'm not saying don't neuter early! I personally think it's a great idea for pets. I'm just describing my experience. And in my experience boys neutered before 6 months rarely resemble boys neutered at 18 months.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Dozymoo said:


> Yes, health absolutely is more important than appearance. I'm never going to disagree with that  and I know pet buyers aren't looking for show winning looks. They're looking for a new family member to love and cherish.
> 
> But as I said, I'm my experience British boys who remain entire longer do develop larger heads and cheeks.
> 
> I'm not saying don't neuter early! I personally think it's a great idea for pets. I'm just describing my experience. And in my experience boys neutered before 6 months rarely resemble boys neutered at 18 months.


I think people's (perhaps talking more about breeders) perception of what is 'big/well grown/proper head development appropriate to age/etc' will differ quite a lot. Almost without exception, in my experience, neutering a BSH male relatively early, say 6-8 months old, does result in a far more effeminate look. I see a big difference (usually via photos sent to me of cats I have bred) between those that were neutered earlier - and most are - rather than later.

In my experience, prospective pet owners who choose a BSH do so not only for the easy going temperament, etc, but also because they like the big, cobby body and big, round chubby face.. I'm very often asked - will my kitten grow up to look like his Dad? The usual explanation follows, along with a stern warning of the drawbacks of delaying neutering their male pet  I'm not sure it has anything to do with health though. Bearing in mind I'm talking about strictly indoor only pets, I think most people simply could not live with the urine smell from the litter tray of a more mature male along with him possibly spraying... just for the sake of an extremely butch looking cat


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Bearing in mind I'm talking about strictly indoor only pets, I think most people simply could not live with the urine smell from the litter tray of a more mature male along with him possibly spraying... just for the sake of an extremely butch looking cat


I agree with you  

A few weeks with an entire rescue tom in the house was enough


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

once again.... this is strange to me... i have a almost 15 month old entire boy who is in my house and has never been outside... he neither sprays nor does my hse smell loool admittedly the litterbox was abit pongy in the evening but ive changed the litter and now its fine! ..... and now that im changing onto raw food im hoping that they will poo less too


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

neko said:


> I'd rather pay a lot of money for a "A cute, well adjusted, de-flead, wormed, healthy socialised kitten"
> because i think THAT'S what is important* if*_ it comes to it_, not breed u_u..
> Isn't that the kind of thing you choose a cat on anyway?
> .


Agreed, but then you can get a rescue moggy. Why pay a backyard breeder so much money for the same thing?


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Shayden said:


> once again.... this is strange to me... i have a almost 15 month old entire boy who is in my house and has never been outside... he neither sprays nor does my hse smell loool admittedly the litterbox was abit pongy in the evening but ive changed the litter and now its fine! ..... and now that im changing onto raw food im hoping that they will poo less too


Echo this re the boy - my stud boy doesn't spray or smell BUT I have visited houses where the it reeks of tom cat and I can't understand how people put up with it.

Early neutering does give a more effeminate look in my opinion for BSH and Selkirks which of course is only an issue for the show bench really ..... I see a big difference between my two brothers who were neutered at 8 months and 4 months. The 8 month old is much more masculine. I would have kept the other boy entire longer but he had an abnormal testicle so for health reasons was neutered at 4 months.

My boy who I kept entire to 13 months and again never sprayed or smelt has amazing breadth of head and masculinity but I was fortunate to be able to keep him entire for that long. He was intended to be my stud boy but he is much more suited to being a neuter boy and his full younger brother is a more laidback and happy lad being entire.

I think people forget it is not just potential spraying and smell with a boy kept entire longer but also what hormones does to their personality? some become agressive, and others can become nervous and insecure.


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Almost without exception, in my experience, neutering a BSH male relatively early, say 6-8 months old, does result in a far more effeminate look.





Soupie said:


> Early neutering does give a more effeminate look in my opinion for BSH


I agree 100%. My neutered (at 8 1/2 months) BSH boy will never be as big as his Sire as he was neutered fairly early. I do show him, and as a junior neuter has done well, but people do mistake him for a female at times (poor chap ) and he still has a kittenish look at 1 year of age. But that was the price to be paid. I would not have wanted to risk him ending up spraying in the house, a habit that later neutering may not have resolved. He is first and foremost a family pet and his health and well-being had to come first, before looks.

On the show bench you can usually see amongst the British male neuters who was neutered early and who was not. The big neuter boys were often neutered after being shown as entire cats first and some are retired studs.

I do love the BIG male British look. I am getting a new male BSH kitten in a few weeks (Yay! I am VERY excited about that). He will be neutered also. I am tempted to wait a little bit longer with him before I neuter him, but it is a gamble how long one waits. I would not wait beyond a year.

Perhaps in other breeds neutering male kittens does not impede maturity, and in BSH females I think the difference between the look of entire and spayed cats is negligible, but I am certain in British males it changes looks significantly.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

My mush was neutered at 7 months and has a GIANT face (and stomach and bum and legs etc)


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## mobykhan (Mar 29, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> Im sorry but this is poo plop! I know many breeders in that area & surrounding it and theirs are £350-400, plus if you really wanted one, just go a bit further out?? Only have too look up breeders in that area, it isnt hard
> Do you mean that these 'breeders' just had 4 litters of kittens a year from many queens, or 4 litters per cat per year? Where are they kept I dont get the 'keeping inside' bit as pedigree queens certainly arent allowed outside!
> well, why should he 'discount' his kittens? It isnt buy one get one half price, they are actualy lives you know...! Personally I love littermates going together, thats my prority, and Once I get to know a person I do all I can for them if they want 2 kittens. But if someone called me and said 'Hi I want two kittens whats the discount' Id be like 'Oh they only care about what they can get off the price!'


Did I not say that this was my experience? I think I did - And I found this from MY research, looking locally from berkshire/buckinghamshire to Cornwall and Kent and looking on official sites as stated before for finding breeders. For someone who did not know alot about finding pedigree kittens, I found them selling at these high prices and thought it was normal. I also mentioned looking up north because I do go to Leeds quite often, so I was browsing around for prices and their weren't major differences. You think Berkshire to Leeds is far enough yes? These were also breeders stating how ethical they were and how many other shoddy breeders there are out there, so I guess they can charge the extra eh? Hmm.

Also, you would think that my original post seemed at least a little like I care for animals and that I am serious in researching about them. *But no, it was very obvious that I called up a breeder just for a discount!* I am sorry that I did not make it clear, but I had a lengthy conversation with him (as lengthy as it could be because he didn't seem too interested in answering all of my questions) and I thought I would test the water to see if he would care enough about his kittens to let two go for a reduced rate so they would be together. (As another breeder suggested herself). I'm not saying anyone should get a second kitten half price, it was to see his reaction. And yes, he laughed down the phone and said he can just sell them individually for full price - and you could take that how you wanted. Even £50 off would have been appreciated by anyone considering he was selling each for £550.


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## mobykhan (Mar 29, 2011)

Oh that was a change of tone with my post! Lol, carry on with the neutering talk!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

mobykhan said:


> *But no, it was very obvious that I called up a breeder just for a discount!* I am sorry that I did not make it clear, but I had a lengthy conversation with him (as lengthy as it could be because he didn't seem too interested in answering all of my questions) and I thought I would test the water to see if he would care enough about his kittens to let two go for a reduced rate so they would be together.


I would never be rude enough to laugh at anyone who asked but, strange as it might seem, I have never discounted the price where two kittens are going together where the prospective owner asks for a discount - and particularly so if they ask very early on during the contact we have. But on reflection quite a lot of enquiries where cost/people asking for a discount seems to be high on their list of questions.. well, those enquiries often fall by the wayside either at my or their instigation.

But I always give a generous discount for two kittens to people who don't ask.


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> But I always give a generous discount for two kittens to people who don't ask.


what breeds do you own  il remember not to ask when im looking for a new addition to my family


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Deleted as got wrong end of stick ....


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Soupie said:


> That was uncalled for. Gskinner is one of THE most respected breeders of her breed - anyone who owns a cat of her breeding is privileged. I enjoy my cuddles with them on the show bench.
> 
> What she says make sense - people seeking a bargain may not be the perfect home and it does often come across as people wanting a 'deal'. I am the same - I offer a discount for those taking two but if someone raises it as one of first questions they are often not the right person.


I read it like that but I think shayden means she Wont ask for a discount when asking for two new kittens as skinnre gives discounts to people who ask...I don think she was being horrible

Skinner - Yes I do the same  I Love them going together, the two going together, wouldnt have been able to unless I gave them a discount, and I wont say how much it is, but is a extremly high percentage, but then I wanted them to have the kitten, so thats my choice and Im very happy with it


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Sorry the printed word and how we interpret - deleted the post TB


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> I think shayden means she Wont ask for a discount when asking for two new kittens as skinnre gives discounts to people who dont ask...I dont think she was being horrible


yeah thats what i ment! wasnt being rude


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