# Cesar



## Snowy the Wire (Mar 1, 2010)

Looking through some forum threads I notice (and am surprised to see) that there appear to be some of you (shall we say) *very * much against Cesar Millan's approach to dog training.

I know there are other methods to train dogs and have read some of the merits of Ian Dunbar's style. It seems to me that there are many approaches to dog training out there.

I watch Cesar's show and always find myself nodding and saying "aha! that makes absolute sense" whenever the logic of the situation is explained. This is why I have bought one of his books and have another on order. I intend to incorporate these into my dogs training.

Could anyone tell me why I might prefer not to hold these books in high regard?

thanks


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

His methods have been repeatedly disproven by scientific research. The 'dog is wolf' and 'dominance theory' stuff he bases his methods on have since been disproven and the author of the original research all the dominance stuff comes from has repeatedly said he was wrong and it is invalid.

There are friendlier, more humane, safer methods that have been proven to be very effective and are just plain more fun for dog and handler.

Here is some really good reading:
The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan
Why Won&#039;t Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

> I watch Cesar's show and always find myself nodding and saying "aha! that makes absolute sense" whenever the logic of the situation is explained. This is why I have bought one of his books and have another on order. I intend to incorporate these into my dogs training.


A common mistake. The thing to remember is that Cesar's explanation of events is rarely accurate. For instance, the voiceover will often say "The dog lies calm and relaxed" when anyone who is au fait with dog body language and behaviour will tell you that the dog is terrified and has shut down. Google "Learned helplessness" for an explanation.

Similarly, Cesar will often describe a dog as "dominant" when the dog is actually displaying "calming signals" (Google them as well) and is clearly anything but dominant.

So in summary - if you don't know what you're looking for, Cesar makes sense. If you actually watch what is on screen and try turning the sound off so you don't end up seduced by the voiceover, and if you remember that much of what Cesar says is meaningless, made-up babble anyway, he doesn't.

Oh and the reason that most of his detractors feel that way is simple: EVERYTHING Cesar "achieves" can be done AT LEAST as well, and in most cases better, using kinder methods.

And I can't imagine why, if a kind method works as well as a less kind method, anyone would choose anything but the kinder way.

For me, one thing leaps out: a lot of modern trainers, who now use clickers/behaviour modification/counter conditioning/positive methods, started out using the "old" ways (because that's what Cesar does: none of what he does is new. What is new is his made-up explanations and buzzwords like "energy"). Then they realised that there were better and more humane ways.

I don't know of a single trainer who started off using positive methods and then changed to Cesar-style bullying methods.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Don't let anybody _tell_ you anything - always study study study , especially in relation to stuff seen on TV - it _always_ has an agenda other than education. Keep querying, asking questions, questioning others' approaches, form conclusions based on widespread well carried out studies and papers

The stuff he talks about in relation to social relationships (both dog-dog and dog-human) NEVER had any credibility or back up but has infected dog training for some reason  Have a look at those links above and keep enquiring. 
There are of course many ways to teach any behaviour or rectify any behaviour but there are some ground rules that should be understood before one begins - how dog's learn, what's the cognitive input, social relevance if any, impact of learning on learner. If you can look after those just as a base than you are likely to be successful.

Have a look at the links on canine signalling in this thread here, study them and then watch the shows with the sound turned OFF.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Snowy the Wire said:


> Could anyone tell me why I might prefer not to hold these books in high regard?


Because the following *major* organisations are all opposed to his methods:

*Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons* (RCVS)
*Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour* (ASAB)
*Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors* (APBC)
*Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK* (APDT,UK)
*Companion Animal Behaviour Therapy Study Group* (CABTSG)
*Dogs Trust*
*Raystede Centre for Animal Welfare*
*Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals* (RSPCA)
*The Blue Dog Trust*
*UK Registry of Canine Behaviourists* (UKRCB)
*Wood Green Animal Shelters* 
*World Society for the Protection of Animals* (WSPA).
*American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour* (AVSAB).
*European College of Veterinary Behavioural Medicine* - Companion Animals (ECVBM-CA)
*European Society of Clinical Veterinary Ethology* (ESCVE)
*Norwegian Association for Pet Behaviour*

Does that tell you anything?


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## Snowy the Wire (Mar 1, 2010)

Interesting replies thank you. 

It seems to me that there may be a few things at play here. Some schools of thought seem to dispute Cesar's approach for whatever the reason, dogs, wolves humans etc. Televisions hand in things (dubbing, hype, trend etc). The American system as opposed to the British system. The favoured scientific approach of the day (remember there would have been a day when someone said the world was flat and was believed, or that the world was round and got laughed at).

I think that I sit somewhere in the middle. 

I don't for one second believe that none of his training works. So, if he does things different to another "expert" but achieves results...isn't that worth writing a book about or filming a TV series? I vote for one political party but without believing in its complete manifesto but that doesn't make that party wrong or me a fool...it doesn't even make another party wholly wrong.

I like the logic of what he has to say...it makes good sense to me. We often follow the most contemporary scientific advice until it it is enhanced by another (didn't Freud say some silly things after all?).

I'm thankful for such considered replies though and it has made me think lots and will do more reading up. But, I personally do still consider there is lots of value in what Cesar has to say.

cheers!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snowy the Wire said:


> ...if he does things different to another "expert" but achieves results...
> isn't that worth writing a book about or filming a TV series?
> I vote for one political party but without believing in its complete manifesto but that doesn't make that party
> wrong or me a fool...it doesn't even make another party wholly wrong.


hey, pete! :--) 
if i were to achieve results with a 2 by 4, hand-held chain lash, a 1930s-style dog-whip (yes, they were called that), i would be arrested toot-sweet. *results are not an adequate total measure of success.* how long is it successful? can U build on it as a foundation behavior? is it helpful in the long-term, or hurtful? 
does it improve dog + human relations, or damage them?

_what tools + methods one chooses are a direct implementation of ones knowledge + beliefs, IMO + IME._ 
i believe dogs have brains, dogs can learn, dogs are intelligent, dogs are emotional, dogs have senses + thus are sentient, dogs have preferences, and dogs are social. my training-tools are chosen with those beliefs in mind, to improve communication + enhance learning - not to enforce compliance.

as has been pointed out repeatedly - Suppression of behaviors is not a long-term success, and dominance / domineering 
behavior results in serious fallout, from fear to resistance to aggro, and also (as seen on screen) shut-down AKA dogs who simply quit... everything. 


> I like the logic of what he has to say...it makes good sense to me. [snip]...
> I personally... consider there is lots of value in what Cesar has to say.


it;s not logic - 
what he SAYS is a blend of truths and myths, IMO + IME, as well as many others opinions. 
what he DOES is another subject entirely - tools used, methods, flooding, confronting, and so on.

* many of the things he says that are TRUE are hardly original - 
every vet, trainer, handler, breeder, competitor + knowledgeable PET-OWNER will agree that dogs need exercise, training, understandable rules, routines, consistency, et al. 
* none are original materiel. *

* many original statements (IMO + that of the referenced individuals + professional organizations) are inaccurate or misleading.

* pinning, rolling, chokes, prongs, shock, etc, are anywhere from 40-YO to over-100-YO as tools or techniques.

* pack-theory was popularized in the late-70s + early-80s - between 1977 + 1982, roughly. 
Dominance Theory « Companions Training Blog 
it was *disproved* before the public got their brains hooked on it, approx 1988 - 1990. 
Articles - L. David Mech

* dominance, hierarchy, etc, are addictive behaviors + concepts, IME as a trainer for more than 25-years. 
* IOW - humans like them - and power is addictive. *it feels good.**

here is a cautionary tale - YouTube - CIA Case File: 'Tucker' Nail Trim 
starring one of Ur dogs relatives, an Airedale. this pup was rolled, pinned, etc, and developed major behavioral problems. 
(Tucker is not alone - i merely include him as an examplar.)

obviously, Ur dog is not ours, Ur choices are Ur own - but please make them mindfully. 

cheers, and if U have pix of Ur pup, please post!  
i have not seen a Wire-pup in ages... :001_tt1: 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Snowy the Wire said:


> II personally do still consider there is lots of value in what Cesar has to say.


I highly recommend reading up on dog body language and especially calming signals - type it into youtube and you'll see lots of clearly narrated examples.

Here are some to start you off:
PetSmart® If Your Pet Could Talk

Then watch the show with the sound off. Really look at what the dogs are saying with their bodies, not what he says they are saying. It's an eye opener.

One of the saddest things I see coming out of Cesar Millan's style of thinking of dogs - the idea that everything they do that doesn't fit with what we want, must be happening because the dog wants to frustrate/annoy/control/dominate us. It's almost the assumption that dogs COULD be perfectly adapted to living with us monkeys, but they just don't feel like it, and must be forced/intimidated into submission.

A dog in a human household is living with aliens. Imagine if you moved in with a traditional Japanese family who spoke no English. You'd make all sorts of social mistakes without even knowing, wouldn't you? If you were punished for each mistake I imagine you'd be pretty nervous and unhappy. You might just decide that it was safest to stay in your room, in bed, interacting as little as possible so as not to risk making any mistakes.

Congratulations, you are now in what Millan calls a 'calm submissive' state.

A dog will need to learn, and be taught, how to behave in a household of aliens. He'll make mistakes along the way, and instead of assuming deliberate intent behind his mistakes (That damn western man keeps standing too close and talking too loud! He must be doing it to dominate/piss us off!) I think it's fairer to assume that he doesn't know better, or that the motivation for doing better isn't clear enough.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Snowy the Wire said:


> Interesting replies thank you.
> 
> It seems to me that there may be a few things at play here. Some schools of thought seem to dispute Cesar's approach for whatever the reason, dogs, wolves humans etc. Televisions hand in things (dubbing, hype, trend etc). The American system as opposed to the British system. The favoured scientific approach of the day (remember there would have been a day when someone said the world was flat and was believed, or that the world was round and got laughed at).
> 
> ...


I also sit on the fence, I very much agree that some of his methods must work


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

ClaireLouise said:


> I also sit on the fence, I very much agree that some of his methods must work


You don't sound convinced. Can you give some examples? And how do you decide that a method 'works'?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snowy the Wire said:


> ... I notice *(and am surprised to see)* that there appear to be some... *very * much against Cesar Millan's approach to dog training.
> 
> I... have read some of the merits of Ian Dunbar's style. It seems to me that there are many approaches to dog training out there.


i just noticed the word *surprised * in the post... 
why is it SURPRISING?

basically, there are traditional trainers who use aversives to stop UnWanted behavior, 
and there are pos-R trainers who teach desired behaviors, and reward the desired behaviors - 
while managing the dog to prevent SELF-Rewarding behaviors + make desired behavior more likely. 
(goof proofing the process, or Set the dog up for success.)

some well-known pos-R trainers - 
Peaceable Paws 
Steve White 
Jersey Dog Trainer - Positive Reinforcement - South Jersey area 
Dog Training Books, Dog Training, Dog Behavior, Puppy Training | Patricia McConnell 
Dog Behavior Specialists | R. I. Dog Guy, LLC | Dog Training and Dog Trainers 
The Loved Dog: The Playful ... - Google Books 
Amazon.com: Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds (9781890948337): Jim Barry, Mary Emmen: Books

Calling all Cesar Millan 'disapprovers'...? - Yahoo!7 Answers thats from 2 years ago...

this is 2006 - the AHA - AHA (American Humane Assoc) - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN

a google-search - 
cesar millan controversy - Google Search 
somewhere between page 10 + page 20, the relevance fades. 
over 100 direct hits, and under 200 direct hits.


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## Snowy the Wire (Mar 1, 2010)

Terry

Because I genuinely was! Nothing more than that but I will check out the other guidance anyway as I like to balance the facts.

cheers!
Pete


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Snowy - I just tried to send you a load of links to scientifically published data via PM... but you seem to not be allowing personal messages?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Snowy the Wire said:


> Looking through some forum threads I notice (and am surprised to see) that there appear to be some of you (shall we say) *very * much against Cesar Millan's approach to dog training.
> 
> I know there are other methods to train dogs and have read some of the merits of Ian Dunbar's style. It seems to me that there are many approaches to dog training out there.
> 
> ...


*As a Cesar Milan fan i can't think of one of any good reason why you shouldn't. I should point out though Cesar does NOT claim to train dogs.*


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## kittysoo (Mar 9, 2008)

I was a huge fan of Cesar and actuaclly spent the money on his sessions which are pretty costly. I have completely changed my view of Cesar's training methods but not the man himself. 
I think he is a great and (sexy) looking bloke - (great teeth). He seems very gentle when he is not dominating a dog.  His show is very classy and yes he gets results but in a way that could be got by using a kinder method. 
I tried his methods and got a very scared dog out of it after doing the alpha roll. Yes he does advise that we don't try this at home but what is the use of that. We all know that 99% of people will try his methods and the other 1% probably has the money to pay for a behavourist to come in to the home.

Lets face it what appeals to us is seeing Cesar running with a pack of dogs behind him. Not many people could take out that many dogs with the control he has over them. I cant control my 3 little nightmares eek: And of course what we see is what we are allowed to see.

I have lots of books on Cesar and l do genuinely believe that he loves dogs and is doing a lot for promoting rescue and teaching people that dogs are a living and breathing animal and not something to be thrown away. However for some of the good that he does - he is also reinforcing the old ways of dog training which is mentally damaging to the weaker dogs especially.

Ihad 2 tickets to see Cesar in Birmingham and l have given them to my 2 CM fans that watch his programes for a voluntary fee to the Dogs for Disabled Charity. At least some good will come out of it. They are both quite soppy owners to their dogs so l doubt that they will suddenly change into Alphas over the course of 2 hours. Anyway I intend to slowly get them weaned from his methods and promote more positive options.

Personally if someone said that l had to treat my child or dog harshly- when l could get the same results from another person with a kinder method - l know which one l would choose.
My advice is read everything - not just CM or VS but abosolutely everything and then make your own mind up.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *As a Cesar Milan fan i can't think of one of any good reason why you shouldn't. I should point out though Cesar does NOT claim to train dogs.*


If he's not a trainer then why does he write dog training books?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

kittysoo said:


> Personally if someone said that l had to treat my child or dog harshly- when l could get the same results from another person with a kinder method - l know which one l would choose.
> My advice is read everything - not just CM or VS but abosolutely everything and then make your own mind up.


That was an interesting post Kittysoo and it is always good to hear from people who have tried out his sessions and what results they saw from them rather than just the armchair fans. It didn't work for you and you realised why. But you learned something, that dogs can be taught using much kinder , less stressful methods and so, your learning curve was worth it.  I agree totally with your last paragraph there as well. Most people do learn by following just one trainer but it is always advisable to think outside of the box and look at other trainers as well and how they do things. Obviously don't adopt methods that you are not comfortable with but read different books by different authors and take from each one what you are happy with and what suits your dog. Personally I cannot stand VS' high pitched 'Badaba!' that she uses as an interruptor, lol!  I tend to find a rather growly 'Oi' much more effective especially when followed with praise for stopping the behaviour. Dog soon learns. 



MerlinsMum said:


> If he's not a trainer then why does he write dog training books?


Because they make money.


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

kittysoo said:


> I was a huge fan of Cesar and actuaclly spent the money on his sessions which are pretty costly. I have completely changed my view of Cesar's training methods but not the man himself.
> I think he is a great and (sexy) looking bloke - (great teeth). He seems very gentle when he is not dominating a dog.  His show is very classy and yes he gets results but in a way that could be got by using a kinder method.
> I tried his methods and got a very scared dog out of it after doing the alpha roll. Yes he does advise that we don't try this at home but what is the use of that. We all know that 99% of people will try his methods and the other 1% probably has the money to pay for a behavourist to come in to the home.
> 
> ...


Agree completely, except for the 'sexy' bit lol



MerlinsMum said:


> If he's not a trainer then why does he write dog training books?


I think she was meaning in the show more than as a career as a whole, but I could be wrong, that's how I read it anyway


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

He apparently says at the beginning of each show _"My job is to help people to understand what dogs really need.  My dream is to share the knowledge that I was born with, with the rest of the world."_

He was born with???  So does that explain why he has so many things backside about face then, like 'a dog putting it's own tail between it's legs causes it to be fearful?' YouTube - from the donkeys :lol:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> He was born with???


Maybe it's Maybelline?


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Most of us try to improve our knowledge through learning, CM on the other hand is clearly proud to remain as naïve as a new born baby. Here he is going on about that tail again: YouTube - The Dog Whisperer - Leash on a tail !!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

LOL!!!!!! :laugh: Not seen that one before! He is serious too isn't he? How sad. Poor bloke really does need to do some reading up and fast because he is making himself look ridiculous with his blatent lack of knowledge! People 'follow' this guy? Sheesh! :blush:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Just wanted to add my support for him!

I don't use all his methods, but I believe he truly understands dogs. He has done a wonderful job at educating the lazy Americans and for pit bulls. 

He gets my vote everytime!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> He apparently says at the beginning of each show _"My job is to help people to understand what dogs really need.  My dream is to share the knowledge that I was born with, with the rest of the world."_
> He was born with???


hey, caro! :--) 
Cesar has consistently said he works on instinct, or from *his instinct*, which is why he acknowledges that not *everyone* can do what he does.

* punishment in the form of aversives takes good timing to be effective
* most pet-owners are not as fit, many are older, younger, un-fit, etc.
* DOG - OWNERS have no instinctive grasp of dogs -
their body-language, normal behaviors innate to the species (incest is not a deterrent to dogs, they eat sh*t of many species including their own, they will often eat their own or others vomit, etc), HOW dogs learn most efficiently or effectively, etc.

even when i go to see a client for the 1st-time, i have SOME idea of the dog, age, circs, sex, presenting problem, household...
and i have SOME sort of plan, and i have selected *Gear* with me... a long-line for recall-practice, a floating-toy for the beach, etc.
i don;t just stroll in and go with my gut.

humans learn what they are taught; we have vanishingly few instincts.
fear of falling is one; a clutch-response + startle at loud-sounds is another.
neither one IMO does a dam*ed bit of good in teaching a dog...

all my best,
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> ...I believe he truly understands dogs.


hey, vic! :--) 
i do not IMO feel he *understands dogs* - in fact, i think his basic tenets are incorrect; 
dogs are not pack-animals, dogs R not wolves, wolves R not dogs, DOMINATING a dog physically is neither helpful nor needed, let alone inevitable + correct, etc. 


> _ He has done a wonderful job at educating the lazy Americans and for pit bulls._


only Americans are lazy dog-owners? :huh: how interesting... as *Vic Stilwell* was at great pains to *try to educate Brits, not long ago, about getting their F-A-T dogs down to *fit, instead.*

good info on pitbulls is available from other sources that i regard as more reliable - 
Animal Farm Foundation : Welcome!

Bad Rap : Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pit bulls

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just my two cents....

What Milan says makes no sense to me. The vast majority of "dominance" theory makes no sense to me. The "Alpha" always walks in front? Not true. "Alpha" always eats first. Not true.

Every time I watch any of his show I see himm attribute "dominance" to behaviours that are about as far from dominant as it is possible to get. I saw one fearful dog backing away, cowering, head down, tail between legs, ears back, growling. Showing all the obvious signs of FEAR. As Milan continued to intimidate the dog, it began to shake. According to Milan "Its shaking because its learning". Were this not such a serious welfare issue it would be hilarious.

As for whether his methids work - who cares?

I am happy to admit that there is more than one to train a dog. However, Milans methods are cruel (ie based on the infliction of pain and fear), potentially dangerous (to both dog and person) and less effective than many other methods.

I look at it like this:

You could train your dog using Milans methods. They might work - they might not. They might cause physical injury, or redirected aggression, or long term stress. They will probably damage the human-canine relationship.

OR you could train your dog more quickly, more easily, more effectively, using completely safe, humane methods. You would have zero risk of physical or psychological damage, and would improve the bond between owner and dog.

Its a no-brainer to me. If you can train a dog without pain and fear, and you choose to use them anyway, then in my opinion it is nothing more than abuse.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colette said:


> You could train your dog using Milans methods. They might work - they might not. They might cause physical injury, or redirected aggression, or long term stress. They will probably damage the human-canine relationship.
> 
> OR you could train your dog more quickly, more easily, more effectively, using completely safe, humane methods. You would have zero risk of physical or psychological damage, and would improve the bond between owner and dog.
> 
> Its a no-brainer to me. If you can train a dog without pain and fear, and you choose to use them anyway, then in my opinion it is nothing more than abuse.


Spot on! No, the man in question does not have a great knowledge of canine body language and frequently gets it very wrong.  But sadly, he has a powerful publicity machine made up of corporate business people who are making a lot of money through him and as he has a certain charisma, he is an ideal person for them to promote as a 'Whisperer' as he gets through to the humans more than he does the dogs as can be verified by the millions of misguided souls who are now brainwashed into thinking that he is wonderful with dogs. It all smacks of 'cult' to me but there you go.  Dogs on the other hand are now suffering more abuse because of the 'methods' he preaches and many are ending up screwed up and confused, some dangerously so. But of course, they won't be included in the programme.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> Just wanted to add my support for him!
> 
> I don't use all his methods, but I believe he truly understands dogs. He has done a wonderful job at educating the lazy Americans and for pit bulls.
> 
> He gets my vote everytime!


:thumbup1:

Each to their own, eh


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Colette said:


> Every time I watch any of his show I see himm attribute "dominance" to behaviours that are about as far from dominant as it is possible to get. I saw one fearful dog backing away, cowering, head down, tail between legs, ears back, growling. Showing all the obvious signs of FEAR. As Milan continued to intimidate the dog, it began to shake. According to Milan "Its shaking because its learning". Were this not such a serious welfare issue it would be hilarious.


One of the reasons why many of us suggest that people watch the DW with the volume turned down is that youre less likely to be misled by CMs facile, and almost always absurd, explanations of what he thinks is happening.

Youre quite right, oftentimes these explanations are so ridiculously inaccurate that they become unintentionally funny; or at least they would be if only they werent oftentimes uttered at the dogs expense.

Reflect for a moment on the fact that this guy has even considered the possibility that a physical adjustment of a dogs tail position might have an effect on its mood, and you get a sense of how utterly misguided his notions are.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> Reflect for a moment on the fact that this guy has even considered the possibility that a physical adjustment of a dogs tail position might have an effect on its mood, and you get a sense of how utterly misguided his notions are.


YouTube - The Dog Whisperer - Leash on a tail !!:lol: Nuff said! :biggrin:


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2010)

He has got to be taking the piss out of his followers surely? :yikes:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

rona said:


> He has got to be taking the piss out of his followers surely? :yikes:


Seems not. 
YouTube - from the donkeys
:tongue:


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

After seeing that i dont think i could ever take him seriously again.

How bizarre. Im not even sure what to make of it.

How would he cope with a docked dog i wonder.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> How would he cope with a docked dog i wonder.


put one of those post-surgical slings on the dogs butt to lift it?  i dunno - 
run a leash around the dogs waist to prevent them from sitting + cowering?

*changing body-posture CAN change emotion, yes - *but it has to be self-generated.

for Ex, if i use tape to pull Ur mouth up into a fake-smile, U will NOT feel happier during an emotional catastrophe (loss of a friend, injury or illness to a loved one, etc). 
U will feel just as awful, inside; Ur body-language will also obviously reveal that U are depressed and upset, it will not match the fake-smile.

this is why dogs are so good at reacting-to human emotion - 
we CAN lie to a human by smiling + talking brightly; the dog looks at all of our signals, 
and knows that something is seriously wrong.

counselors + psychiatrists who use dogs (their own or AAT dogs) often remark that the dog always goes to the person most in need; they themselves may not KNOW which person that is; the dog does.

if i starch my dogs tail to stand up happily, s/he will not be joyful when they are disappointed.  
HOWEVER - 
if i have a frightened horse, and this horse has been *taught* the cued behavior, 
Drop * Head, and i ASK the horse to drop their head... and the horse complies, 
then the horse will *begin* to calm themselves.

but the horse has to do it by conscious choice - 
if i YANK their head down with a lead, or run a chain-shank over their nose... 
will they be calmer, or simply lift me clean off the ground while they rear? 
_ it depends..._ 
on just how frightened the horse is, but my increased restraint will not automatically calm the horse, even tho if i am lucky i may succeed in forcibly lowering their head. :frown5:

all my best, 
--- terry


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> He apparently says at the beginning of each show _"My job is to help people to understand what dogs really need.  My dream is to share the knowledge that I was born with, with the rest of the world."_
> 
> He was born with???  So does that explain why he has so many things backside about face then, like 'a dog putting it's own tail between it's legs causes it to be fearful?' YouTube - from the donkeys :lol:


I saw that episode.

Does anyone know what the end result was?


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> I saw that episode.
> 
> Does anyone know what the end result was?


Awww thats Baby Girl!! 
He had her for ages, took her everywhere with him, she was SO fearful of everything.
She did amazingly well though, like a new dog when she finished.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Leashed for Life - great post. Reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons where Lisa starts ballet and the teacher staples the kids faces into a smile....

It also reminded me of one explanation I read of why alpha rolling doesn't work. Rolling over and exposing the belly is an appeasement signal. Forcing it is like forcing a child to say I love you. You may scare them into doing / saying it - but doesn't mean they mean it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> ...Reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons where Lisa starts ballet and the teacher staples the kids faces into smile(s)...


 ouch!  just as glad i missed that one...  


> Rolling over and exposing the belly is an appeasement signal. Forcing it is like forcing a child to say I love you.
> You may scare them into doing / saying it - but doesn't mean they mean it.


 yup - appeasement signals are *offered* they are not compelled. 
also, offering an appeasement signal that is then violated sets a terrible precedent - 
like stoopid owners i;ve seen, whose dog _willingly goes belly-up, when intimidated, and the eejit then picks-up the dog, rump + scruff, or collar + rump, and chews the dog out verbally... 
: * stand up, ya yella-bellied lily-livered frog-eatin coward! (smack) what in tarnation is WRONG with yew, ya wuss?! (whack)... *_

its like flying a truce-flag and having the treaty-representative stabbed by the opposing First-Officer.  how can U negotiate in the future? whats left for diplomacy?


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## cpatel (Nov 3, 2007)

Hey

I would suggest that you watch an episode with the volume on mute and watch the dogs and their body language. 

I found that using that as a teaching tool os very powerful as so many trainers see something completely different to what they were seeing before.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> YouTube - from the donkeys :tongue:


what he does not mention is the *reason* the donkey wears a breeching - 
and it isn;t to keep the tail out from under the belly :lol:

its cuz donkeys have no withers to speak of, and on any uphill they need a breast-band to secure the pack or saddle; same on the downhill, the breeching keeps the saddle or pack from going clean over the poor creatures head, as when going downhill on a steep slope, their head is down, and it could fly forward and roll the donkey helplessly, or throw the rider clear off the slope.  horses have a wider back + higher withers, so the saddle or pack has someplace to sit.  
even so, on mountain terrain even pack-Horses wear breechings.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> like stoopid owners i;ve seen, whose dog _willingly goes belly-up, when intimidated, and the eejit then picks-up the dog, rump + scruff, or collar + rump, and chews the dog out verbally...
> : * stand up, ya yella-bellied lily-livered frog-eatin coward! (smack) what in tarnation is WRONG with yew, ya wuss?! (whack)... *_


I actually watched that happen one night at an agility club. I later left as no-one ever pulled owners up for rough handling and I was starting to get rather peeved about it all.  This stupid young woman (and oh boy was she was thick at times!) was running her collie cross who was showing reluctance to even get started! After several false starts and the dog getting more and more agitated, showing calming signal after calming signal, only to be ignored and shouted at, dragged by the scruff back to the start, the dog finally went belly up in fear, submitting for all she was worth. The idiot woman then grabbed her by the throat and held her there shouting at her, calling her lazy etc etc and the dog bit her. I started a slow hand clap in sheer anger at the stupidity of what I had seen and was seriously frowned at by the instructors. The dog in the meantime fled the ring yet again and hid under a chair. The woman went after her but I blocked her and told her that she had done enough damage and unless she wanted to be bitten again she should leave the dog alone until both of them had calmed down. I was told to mind my own business by the instructor who dragged the dog out herself. It was a great shame that the poor dog didn't bite her too! :mad5:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> what he does not mention is the *reason* the donkey wears a breeching -
> and it isn;t to keep the tail out from under the belly :lol:


Well he doesn't even know why a dog clamps it's tail between it's legs so we can hardly expect him to know about donkeys!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Well he doesn't even know why a dog clamps it's tail between it's legs so we can hardly expect him to know about donkeys!


funny thing,  most Mexican farms + ranches have a couple of donkeys or burros, or maybe a mule - 
a dog is just something else to feed, and they will pester the chickens, and often the goats, as well.

a mule or donkey or burro is a useful working animal - a dog is just a mouth, often barking.  
i;d expect the average rural-Mexican to know more about donkeys than dogs!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

MarKalAm said:


> Awww thats Baby Girl!!
> He had her for ages, took her everywhere with him, she was SO fearful of everything.
> She did amazingly well though, like a new dog when she finished.


That's what I thought. If I remember rightly, they had recently moved into the city and the dog was not coping.

As far as I'm aware the method worked and the dog got over his fear.

Different methods for different dogs. And he didn't use the alpha role!


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

For those who want to follow things up...

The leash on a tail clip is from Season 2, Episode 6 (Booker)
The other clip is from Season 5, Episode 16 (Baby Girl)

Here's an informed reading of the episode featuring Baby Girl: Cesar Millan/Dog Whisperer Commentary on Baby Girl | Dog Spelled Forward


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> funny thing,  most Mexican farms + ranches have a couple of donkeys or burros, or maybe a mule -
> a dog is just something else to feed, and they will pester the chickens, and often the goats, as well.
> 
> a mule or donkey or burro is a useful working animal - a dog is just a mouth, often barking.
> i;d expect the average rural-Mexican to know more about donkeys than dogs!


Well maybe he was too busy observing his grandfathers dogs that taught him all he knows? Oh wait! He was BORN with the knowledge! He did not need to study and learn. 



Inkdog said:


> For those who want to follow things up...
> 
> The leash on a tail clip is from Season 2, Episode 6 (Booker)
> The other clip is from Season 5, Episode 16 (Baby Girl)
> ...


Hmm seems like a qualified chap from his 'About' page. But no doubt people will squeal that 'it's just his opinion' and that he knows nothing.  This part where he says - " I feel that the socialization Cesar provided by taking her with him around the city, and the time she spent with other dogs helped her a lot." is probably a more accurate description of how CM rehabilitated that dog, not all the mumbo jumbo energeeeeee and running her on a treadmill etc. Good old fashioned socialisation if done at the dogs pace can work wonders on even nervous dogs as most of us know. It's not a miracle, just common sense.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Inkdog said:


> Here's an informed reading of the episode featuring Baby Girl: Cesar Millan/Dog Whisperer Commentary on Baby Girl | Dog Spelled Forward


*eric G* is very good - his essays on DogStarDaily are very enjoyable + clear. 
i appreciate the extreme amount of detail he spent on parsing this episode - 
bringing in references, related vid-links, explaining B-Mod + behavior, CERs and flooding.

notice that he *still* gets grief from CM/DW fan(atic)s - 
one of whom criticized him for =spending too much time= WATCHING CM/DW.  what, if U swallow every concept unquestioningly 
U cannot overdose, *but if U watch from an informed science-savvy POV, U are only allowed to skim?* :blink: how can anyone responsibly critique a subject if they have not actually investigated it?! unreal... how illogical can U get. 

humans are the strangest species...  
--- terry


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

I've read all the posts in this thread, and whilst I can feel the obvious passion that the majority of posters here feel against Cesar's techniques, it's also coming over just a tad "Armchair Critic".

Let's face it, you can't say that he hasn't helped any dogs (or owners) because he has gotten wonderful results with quite a few advanced cases on his shows.

I agree that some of his shows have been a bit strange to watch (leash on a tail for instance), but I simply switched over to a different channel and watched something else.

I'm sure we've all loved music groups who've had songs that charted at number 1, and then obscure flops too. The flop singles shouldn't discount the genius of the number 1's though (and vice versa).

And finally, the "energy mumbo jumbo". Have you never had days where you just "didn't have the energy"? Or days where you "were feeling low"? What about the time you walked into a bar and felt "really uncomfortable with the vibe" so you left after one drink. Is that not the same energy that Cesar is trying to describe?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Classixuk - I agree I can not adamantly state "Cesar has never helped a single dog". However, his idea of "helping" is basically bullying the dog into a state of learned helplessness where it becomes too afraid to do anything much at all.

The other objection is that where many trainers / behaviourists could have solved the same problems using totally safe, humane, effective methods - Cesar chooses to use dangerous, cruel, less-effective methods.

That is why I can't agree with your analogy to music tastes. It makes no difference whether I listen to Beethoven or S Club 7. That is a matter of personal preference. But the difference between Cesar and other trainers is that it is the welfare and lives of peoples dogs at stake. Seeing a dog being hanged off the floor by a choke chain until it passes out is not an issue of preference - it is a serious animal welfare issue.

As for Cesars talk about energy... I understand what you are saying, but I just can't see how Cesars talk matches up with what he actually does. It's all well and good talking in a soft voice, but asphyxiation, violence and intimidation are still abuse no matter how quietly you carry them out.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

classixuk said:


> I've read all the posts in this thread, and whilst I can feel the obvious passion that the majority of posters here feel against Cesar's techniques, it's also coming over just a tad "Armchair Critic".
> 
> Let's face it, you can't say that he hasn't helped any dogs (or owners) because he has gotten wonderful results with quite a few advanced cases on his shows.
> 
> ...


Your groups or yourself feeling low don't effect the lives of millions of dogs though


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

rona said:


> Your groups or yourself feeling low don't effect the lives of millions of dogs though


Maybe it's not a good day for me to be on this thread...just checked my horoscope...

Astrology - Today's Gemini Horoscope
Here is your Today's Gemini Horoscope
One of your deeper assumptions is challenged today -- maybe by someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about. You still have to defend it, though or possibly shift your thinking.
Compatibility:Cancer
Mood:Aggressive



Plus, I found out this morning that an old friend from back in the 1990's whom I keep in touch with on Facebook went from being one in a million to one in three in the early hours of yesterday morning. So I guess the compatibility and mood parts are true also.

Reckon I should pop off and make a brew.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

IMO Cesar's talk of energy and woo-woo mysticism is a blanket for a complete lack of insight into canine body language. It's easier (and sounds far more interesting!) to pretend it's all some mystic 'energy flow' than to really LOOK at the dog. 

And the cynist in me wonders if that isn't deliberate - if all his viewers really gained insight into canine body language, they would see how most of the dogs he labels as dominant are stressed, fearful, acting on their instincts etc.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

classixuk said:


> Let's face it, you can't say that he hasn't helped any dogs (or owners) because he has gotten wonderful results with quite a few advanced cases on his shows.


...Or the ones he saves from puppy mills, or saves from being electrocuted(!), or the ones he saves from being PTS - Cos no one else will. OR the ones he helps through one of his many charities. I LOVE when people say he writes books to make money, WHO DOESN'T! And if he uses some of that money in his charities, to HELP dogs, why do people have a problem with that.

I'd sooner watch Cesar than Crufts, which IS unnatural, but far more acceptable.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> And finally, the "energy mumbo jumbo".
> Have you never had days where you just "didn't have the energy"?
> Or days where you "were feeling low"? What about the time you walked into a bar and felt "really uncomfortable
> with the vibe" so you left after one drink.
> Is that not the same energy that Cesar is trying to describe?


in a work, classix - No 

CM is describing *presenting oneself in a deliberate, scripted fashion* - shoulders + head up, very frontal, 
very brusque + decisive, etcetera. 
this is utterly dissimilar from -getting vibes from the surroundings- ... 
this is *oneself* setting out to make a highly-specific impression on the dog(s).

cheers, 
--- terry


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Hey guys,

I was just replying to another thread about the tour, when something popped into my mind that I thought I might pop in here and ask you to consider.

Obviously, I was at the live show and got to watch Cesar live on stage "unedited". We didn't get to see much "shhh" or "dominance" or "cruelty" in the show, however there was an instance where he put a loose slip lead around the upper neck of a spaniel and walked with it to prevent the spaniel from sniffing at the ground, and he also put that same dog onto a treadmill.

It got me thinking about something...bare with me.

About 3 years ago, my best friend agreed to appear on the TV show "wife swap". As a result, the cameras followed her for 8 days (it's not 2 weeks as the show suggests) and my OH and I were involved quite a bit in the filming with both my friend and also the new wife (we took her out for dinner and also spent an evening in one of our salons doing her hair, as well as attending a barbeque with her).

When the show came out, the first thing that we noticed was that the "days" were shown out of sequence...and this painted a different story. My friend also had a massive argument with the new husband, but other than that they got on quite well. The show however made them look like arch rivals. It made her look like a looney and him look like an aggressive man.

YouTube - Wife Swap

And then, around 6 months later, a friend of mine who runs a restaurant agreed to appear on Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares. And again, when the show came out, they used footage that created excitement rather than a true reflection of what happened.

So my point is this, do you not think that the producers and directors skip entire "softly softly" approaches and just go straight for the jugular when making an episode of The Dog Whisperer? They must fit an entire days worth of filming into a 15 minute segment of the show. How much "nice stuff" ends up on the cutting room floor? :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> The other objection (to CM/DW) is that... many trainers / behaviourists could have solved the same problems using totally safe, humane, effective methods...
> the difference between Cesar and other trainers is that it is the welfare and lives of peoples dogs at stake. Seeing a dog being hanged off the floor by a choke chain until it passes out is not an issue of preference - it is a serious animal welfare issue.


yes, very true, colette - 
particularly as viewers DESPITE the cheesy *disclaimer* can be predicted to *do What They See portrayed as appropriate, and repeatedly described as safe, not painful, etc techniques. *

*that CM/DW also repeatedly [IMO] mis-labels behavior + body-language greatly exacerbates the programs ability to cause harm - to the dogs owned by APO viewers, to dogs belonging to their friends, relatives or acquaintances, AND to any of the humans those dogs may meet... * 
EX, he describes a fearful dog attempting to avoid an object, situation or person that frightens them, 
as DOMINANT? :blink: how much more-wrong could that label be?

these viewers see a fearful dog labeled DOMINANT and punished for it - 
they pass this label and the advice / technique along, or practice it themselves, WHEN *they next see a dog display those body-signals: freezing in fear, lying-down immobile + deadweight resisting, whale-eyes, tail-down, trying to bolt, etc.*

when *Cesar* SAYS ===> this is dominant... [image] *viewers* look at the labeled-behavior, and believe him. 
then *viewers* act-on that (IMO + IME) utterly incorrect information. and there is the real danger - 
IME the rapid + highly-persistent spread of incorrect perceptions and a tolerance for severe aversives, applied to ALL dogs + pups, indiscriminately.

A * PERSONAL * NOTE - 
one of my neighbors recently acquired a F pitbull-pup... underage, of course.  
this is a somewhat-timid puppy, between 5 + 6-WO on arrival; easily startled, barks when uncertain, spends much of her time tail down, but is highly, highly affiliative; runs to every stranger, fawning + wagging with her spine roached + butt tucked, licking at the air, head down.

my neighbor sadly is both a CM/DW fan AND a dog-ignorant numpty IMO - 
she shouts at this puppy INSIDE her closed-apt in the adjacent building, *so loudly that 2 floors up, with all my doors + windows closed, I Can Hear Her - i can also hear the puppy yelp when she is hit. *

the other day she spent literally FIFTEEN * MINUTES screeching at this pup, lecturing her on her *crime* - she ate cat-stool while they were outside, and the pup as ALWAYS was off-leash.  she dragged her back into the house by her collar, YELLING *No! No! BAd DoG!... F**** B****, what the H***s wrong with U, GD Dog!... * and this continued after she shut the *%[email protected]! door... 
shouting for 15-mins, with intermittent yips as she swatted the puppy.

Q - do U think the puppy learned not to eat cat-stool? 
Q 2 - do U think a leash might help PREVENT the behavior? 
Q 3 - do U think a brain-transplant might help the puppy-owner?  
AND the puppy?

_* Madame Gaza predicts... *_ 
this puppy will lose her home before she is 9-MO 
* her timid behavior will be markedly worse, and her bite inhibition eroded - 
the owner screamed bloody murder this morning when the pup nipped her painfully when she scared the tar out of her, scruffing her roughly and slapping her for NOT *staying* when told... 
(the pup BTW has never been *taught* to STAY - she just screams STAY and expects her to grok the concept. :mad5

*anybody want a cute pit-pup approx 12 to 14-WO? *
failing that, *anybody want a honey-blonde muscular woman in her mid-30s? *
make me an offer  better yet - I will pay U! :nonod: cash on pick-up.

nauseated by the nonstop ABUSE i have to listen to and see daily, 
--- terry


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Oh, that's so terrible to listen to, I feel for you! My upstairs neighbours have an unruly boxer pup - bit over a year old now. I don't think he ever gets to go offleash, he spends about 22 hours a day in his crate and when let out bounces around wildly (wouldn't you?) they yell at it to stop. Their usual style of communicating with it is "Down. Down, now. DOWN NOW! DOWN NOW! GET DOWN NOW!". 

At least they do not hit him, as far as I know; he's just kind of neglected. Sad thing. I would go nuts if I had to listen to what you describe. Is there any way you could get animal welfare involved? Poor pup doesn't stand a chance...


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Classix if they're doing that then Cesar needs to find himself a new director/editor/producer!


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

leashedForLife said:


> in a work, classix - No
> 
> CM is describing *presenting oneself in a deliberate, scripted fashion* - shoulders + head up, very frontal,
> very brusque + decisive, etcetera.
> ...


Exhibiting energy and confidence as a handler will feed through to the dog even if you are just putting it on. Shoulders back and head up whilst doing heelwork with a dog, be it for competition or real life will give a marked improvement, even if the dog and you are worried. I train people for and also compete myself, and would never enter the competition field with my head down and my shoulders slouched. When i am nervous i take a deep breath lift my head up and shoulders back, changing your physiology, changes your mood state.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Classix if they're doing that then Cesar needs to find himself a new director/editor/producer!


It's not that simple though.

If you look at his earlier series (1 and 2) and compare them to the later shows, you will definitely see a trend towards showing the more (cough) strange fixes as the series progresses.

TV execs are always trying to "bring something new" to the table.

There is/was a show called Most Haunted that I used to love watching back in 2001-2002 when it started. They investigated allegedly haunted places and tried to see if anything spooky would happen. The crew were generally scared at every bump or noise they heard, especially the female presenter, Yvette.

Last time I tuned in though, the same presenter was setting up Ouijja (sp?) boards, table tipping, and shouting at the ghosts to "show themselves"...it's become a farce. But it is their income. 

Nothing lasts forever, and I think that Cesar is probably aware of that. He's a puppet to the TV network as much as the dogs become a puppet for the show too. He's making hay while the sun shines.

The modern ways aren't always the best IMO. Look at the youth of today. We've stopped punishing them and we only praise them instead for when they've done right. In 50 years time we'll probably look back on that as a "failed experiment".


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> Exhibiting energy and confidence as a handler will feed through to the dog even if you are just putting it on.


On the other hand, dogs - especially our own, as opposed to those we handle for other people - know us so well, they can scent minute changes in our mood, plus tiny give-away body language movements - minuscule movements of which we are ourselves unaware.

They DO know when you are putting it on. You can't lie to a dog. They always know. If they are clever enough to tell when epileptic seizures are imminent, or can smell cancer, then nothing is hidden! We are open books.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

MerlinsMum said:


> On the other hand, dogs - especially our own, as opposed to those we handle for other people - know us so well, they can scent minute changes in our mood, plus tiny give-away body language movements - minuscule movements of which we are ourselves unaware.
> 
> They DO know when you are putting it on. You can't lie to a dog. They always know. If they are clever enough to tell when epileptic seizures are imminent, or can smell cancer, then nothing is hidden! We are open books.


Well we'll have to disagree on that one, changing physiology will change your mood state, the handler making a show of energy and confidence will make both you and the dog perform better. i don't handle other peoples dogs I train them to compete with there own dogs, and i compete with mine.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> Exhibiting energy and confidence as a handler will feed through to the dog even if you are just putting it on. Shoulders back and head up whilst doing heelwork with a dog, be it for competition or real life will give a marked improvement, even if the dog and you are worried. I train people for and also compete myself, and would never enter the competition field with my head down and my shoulders slouched. When i am nervous i take a deep breath lift my head up and shoulders back, changing your physiology, changes your mood state.


thats fine, jenny - 
i am well-aware of the long-advised counsel to raise ones head, breathe deeply, etc, when about to make a speech, enter a conflict, perform, etc; that is perfectly apropos, i am NOT repeat NOT referring to that. 
___________________________________________________

i specifically refer to the OWNER or **TRAINER** *A-K-A *handler*  in the case of CM/DW* of a fearful dog or a reactive dog, 
who uses frontal + confrontational body-parl to intimidate - it is intended to *suppress* the dogs behavior - virtually ANY behavior. 
the dog is not supposed to do ANYthing except physiologically function (heart beats, peristalsis, breathe, digest, perceive, etc) 
WITHOUT * A * CUE - the dog should not act fearful, flinch, slow, avoid, evade, resist, bark, whine, react, etc.

the dog is supposed to become a puppet -


> *i as the handler will TELL U as the dog What to Do,
> and When to Do It - i will pull the strings; U will do what i say, when i say it.
> and By DOG, U will then do it, or else...*


 IMO thats the message in handler-presentation as directed by CM/DW - 
project a forceful, brusque, decisive, INTOLERANT + CONFRONTATIONAL message. 
the dog IMO is supposed to be more afraid of me than of anyOne or anyThing else - 
*>> I <<* am the dogs ultimate bad dream.

* i don;t want to be ANY dogs nightmare - i want to be trusted. 
if something bad happens, i want them to know me as a HAVEN - not a threat. 
wasting time trying to get ahold of the dog i am handling in order to get out of a potentially-nasty situation is not desirable; 
if all H*** breaks loose, i want my dog/my clients-dog, to run TOWARD me, not away. 
* if the dog is frightened, i want to reduce the fear! 
* if the dog is reactive, i want to reduce the reaction! 
i do not want to suppress *symptoms* - i want to improve CERs to improve behavior. 
(for any APO/Average Pet-Owner, a CER is a Conditioned Emotional Response.)

i do not want to suppress behavior; with fearful dogs, FRONTAL + aggro body-parl is not IMO + IME helpful, 
in fact it is distinctly counter-productive. if i try to *catch* a frightened dog at-large, will the (as advised by CM/DW) 
upright, frontal, eyes-on-eyes, deep-pitched brusque COMMANDS help me succeed? 
-no-. 
it sends the dog away; those are all k9-body-parl for increasing-distance. :huh: duh. 

if i HANDLE a reactive-dog using such confrontational body-parl, IME i greatly increase the dogs reactivity + also increase my risk of re-directed aggro to myself, passersby, other dogs, etc. 
IOW - the potential for collateral damage vastly multiplies.

adding stress + aggro of my own to an already-stressful situation is IMO spark to tinder; i don;t go there, and do not advise my clients to do so, either. 
i hope this clarifies my point? 

all my best, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> The modern ways aren't always the best IMO. Look at the youth of today. We've stopped punishing them and we only praise them instead for when they've done right. In 50 years time we'll probably look back on that as a "failed experiment".


please -  
lets not drag-out the Biblical admonition, _Spare the rod + spoil the child_ - or in this case, pup or dog. 
if slapping the snot out of a kid FIXED their problem-behavior, the boys who end-up at Green Chimneys 
would not be there; neither would many of the domestic-animals that arrive with serious baggage, 
often as a result of pos-P / aversives / and actual sheer abuse 
NOTE - 
those are 2 different things, but one can blend into the other when the use of punishers becomes itself abuse, not merely punishment / pos-P for un-wanted behavior.

i repeat - teaching a dog or pup *desired behavior* is IMO vastly preferable to punishing UNdesired behavior. 
punishment can STOP an un-desired behavior; it gives no info to the actor as to What Other Behavior IS Desirable. 
IOW - What behavior will be rewarded? (punishment only tells the actor what is punished.) 
a behavioral-vacuum is neither informative nor helpful.  
dogs are not felons - dogs or puppies are simply that. criminalizing dog-behavior, especially species-normal behaviors or fearful or reactive behaviors, does not help us to solve the problem: 
how best to teach this animal to behave in a socially-acceptable manner in X circs? 
what is the humane, efficient + effective means? 

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sorry thought you were talking about when he says walk with energy.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

classixuk said:


> The modern ways aren't always the best IMO. Look at the youth of today. We've stopped punishing them and we only praise them instead for when they've done right. In 50 years time we'll probably look back on that as a "failed experiment".


Were you ever abused as a child? In any way - emotional, physical? By either your parents or maybe by other kids?

I grew up thinking the way to make your mark was to do the same as was *done to me*.

Violence, bullying, emotional abuse... if something's not doing what you want it to, kick or hit it, yes? Or shout at it so much it closes down and doesn't dare move a fingertip? or breathe? I used to cower in the corner and sat rigid for hours, barely daring to breathe when I was 6 years old.

I had a lifetime of that, it only stopped when I moved away when I was 21.

Thank heavens I found a better way and learned _how to learn_ other ways and be *kind*.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

classixuk said:


> The modern ways aren't always the best IMO. Look at the youth of today. We've stopped punishing them and we only praise them instead for when they've done right. In 50 years time we'll probably look back on that as a "failed experiment".


We're going to disagree on this children don't need to be smacked or kicked to be taught right from wrong it is abuse in my book. Punishment yes but not with canes or hitting or kicking the kid. Some people have moved on from scaring/hurting a kid or animal to get them to listen to you


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Seems not.
> YouTube - from the donkeys
> :tongue:


YouTube - CU: Snap demos relaxing on mat and off-switch game

this is *leslie mcDevitt* demonstrating her Control-UNleashed techs, including a cued relaxation-response, 
rewarded by the chance to chase and kill a fake-ferret on a fishing-pole.

she is eliciting self-control from the dog, and rewarding calm, relaxed body-parl with play. 
she asks for lying quietly, making soft eye-contact - 
she also specifically asks-for + GETS blinks; exhale (sigh); squinty-eyes / soft gaze; still tail. 
she marks the blinks specifically, also the still-tail. 
because of the general-reactivity of a terrier-X and in herding-types (the other ancestry of this dog) to MOVEMENT, 
the arousal-triggered rapid short wag of the tail is a real telltale for the dogs excited state.

when after the exciting kill-play with the fake-ferret, he tries lying BESIDE the mat not on it, she says, *Cheater!*  
+ sends him to the mat.

she also waits for a still tail + squinty-eyes before (again) rewarding him for relaxation with
the opp to grab the fake-ferret on the fishing-pole.

all my best,
--- terry


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> The modern ways aren't always the best IMO.


That depends... seeing as we are talking about CM's methods (which are pretty old-school) compared to Positive redinforcement based, pain-free methods) please consider:

Milans methods are mainly based on dominance theory.
Dominance theory has been disproved as a total fallacy time and again - even the original man who came up with the concept has since renounced it.

Milan claims to be using knowledge "he was born with". Very scientific. I always trust people who obtain all their knowledge by magic or genetics 

Many "old school" methods of dog training are based on misconceptions, myths and old wives tales. It was believed that animals couldn't possibly learn without pain. It was believed that you could effetively punish a dog for something it did hours ago because the dog would somehow "know it had done wrong". Similarly, it was also once believed that docking tails prevented rabies, that dogs that tasted blood would always be biters, and that spreading butter on a cats paws would prevent it straying!

Now let us look at those "modern methods"...

They are based on science.

Numerous studies have demonstrated that R+ is the most effective method to teach a behaviour, not to mention the method that is the least likely to cause pain, fear, further behaviour problems or physical injury.

Numerous studies have shown that behaviours that cause a pleasurable consequence ar more likely to be repeated, behaviours that do NOT cause a pleasurable consequence are less likely to be repeated. (In other words, behaviours do not need to be "punished" in order to be extinguished)

Numerous studies have shown that aversives have a high risk of causing stress (both acute and chronic), pain, fear, learned helplessness, and physical injury. They also carry a high risk of causing aggression, leading to injuries to others (human or canine)

Numerous studies have shown that reinforcement actually works best carried out intermittently (like a slot machine). For punishment to be effective it should occur every time the behaviour occurs. It is not always easy to catch a dog doing the right or wrong thing, or be able to carry out said reinforcement / punishment. It is therefore easier to reward some of the time, than to punish all of the time.

Modern methods tend to based on a variety of theory and experience. Modern methods continue to evolve and become ever more effective, because they usually incorporate the most up-to-date and accurate info on learning / dog behaviour etc available. The "old" methods are just that - they tend to stick to what they know, ignoring all the "modern" data - and thus tend not to evolve.

I find it very telling that it is easy as pie to find countless trainers who started out using "old" methods, who have come over to "modern" methods, having found them to be far better. Yet it is rare indeed to find a "modern" trainer who has ditched their clicker and gone over to join the yank and stomp brigade.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> Many "old school" methods of dog training are based on misconceptions, myths and old (husbands ) tales. It was believed that *animals couldn't possibly learn without pain*. It was believed that you could *effectively punish a dog for something (done) hours ago because the dog would somehow "know (that was) wrong".
> also... that docking tails prevented rabies, that dogs that tasted blood would always be biters,
> and that spreading butter on a cats paws would prevent it straying! *


U mean... _those aren;t true? _  uh-oh... 
i think i;m in trouble. :confused1:

[kidding! he-he... :lol: gotcha... :001_tt2:] Excellent post! :thumbup: four paws ** * * * *


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi

I am not going to debate on CM, but I just wanted to talk about how your mental state affects your physical, which is fact. So even though you may be 'pretending' to be confident, if you exude that, you will feel confident.

E.G. A few years back, I was asked to partake in a firewalk for a dog charity. Yes, walking on hot coals!!!

The main part of the walk was the training session before hand, it was designed to make us think we 'could' do something and if we exuded all the emotions we feel when we are confident and decisive, then we would be. (The problem of walking on hot coals is not that you can do it, you can, it is the stepping on it in the first instance that you have to get over, when everything in your psyche is saying don't do it!).

We did an exercise, whereby we had to feel rubbish, express in our bodies and with our voices, what it felt like to fail and repeat how rubbish, hopeless and pathetic we were!!! We then were asked to hold our arm out and our partners had to push our arm down, using just two fingers, we were to try and keep our arm there...... 1st time we did this, my arm dropped almost immediately, despite me trying hard to keep it firm.

Then we had to think about what it was like to suceeed, how it felt to achieve something, how we felt when we had done something great, again to vocalise that. Once again, we held our arms out.....only difference was this time, my partner (and everyone elses), couldn't push the arm down.... What had changed? My mental thinking.

In my previous job, I taught trainers to train dogs for spefic task, part of that was walking a dog around town, on the bus, tube etc. etc. Many times a dog would become anxious and the trainer tense, making them relax their hand, their bodies, breath and feel calm, changed the whole situation.

I have seen CM telling owners to do this when walking on the lead many times and it is effective.

Oh and yes, I did walk on fire too!!

Kate


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

k8t said:


> ...I just wanted to talk about how your mental state affects your physical, which is fact. So even though you may be 'pretending' to be confident, if you exude that, you will feel confident.
> 
> E.G. A few years back, I was asked to partake in a firewalk for a dog charity. Yes, walking on hot coals!!!


hey, k8t! :--) 
yes, generations of speech-101 teachers + gym-instructors + sales-managers + heaven-knows-who-else 
have all told us, _ drop Ur shoulders, deep breath, and SMILE, honey! there ya go! :thumbsup: 
now U get on with it, U;re gonna be just fine!... _ and its true, we DO feel better, more confident, etc.

however... 
a leash wrapped around a tail is not the DOG looking or acting confident. 
a harness-breeching under a tail to prevent the dog tucking it? 
my HAND under a dog on the exam-table, to keep the dog standing on all fours vs collapsing in fear? 
blindfolding a horse to keep them from bolting?

none of them alter the dogs emotion, or the horses emotion - 
i only change the outer signals (tail-tuck, active-submission, bolting) of their fears.

but!...  if i can get the DOG to lift that tail, even for a few seconds, we are making progress. 
if i can get the wilting dog on the exam-table to roll-over WILLINGLY + *relax*, even for a moment - thats progress. 
if i can get the horse sufficiently calm that they can LOOK at the cause of their fear, 
and stand their ground at a distance, i have made progress.

they have to do it themselves - i cannot MAKE the animal relax, i cannot shout *dammit, i said Calm DOWN!... * and expect improvement.  i can however set the stage for less-stress: 
* add distance 
* reduce the intensity of the trigger 
* associate a non-threatening stimulus

i can start a planned DS/CC process, and watch the body-language change as they relax - 
even in the presence of a former trigger. THATs the pay-off. :thumbsup: it isn;t a majik-wand, 
its a process, but *anyone with patience + a clear grasp of body-language can do this. * 
it isn;t rocket-science and it isn;t INSTINCT, either - its Behavior-modification. 

B-Mod takes patience, careful attention to subtle body-changes, and timing - 
U have to challenge their comfort-level, but in a very controlled fashion, staying under-threshold. 
ANYbody with eyes + empathy can do it; it is not *a gift* - its a skill. 
_so pet owners, 
take a deep breath, drop Ur shoulders, Smile!, and go train those dogs... _ 
and have a good time! :thumbup: U can do this...

all my best, 
--- terry


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## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

I think some of the methods Cesar uses are quite cruel. I don't oppose everything he does but his general approach and mentality doesn't appeal to me. I watch him on tv and this is what I hear:

'Blah blah blah pack leader blah blah calm submissive blah blah did I mention I'm friends with Oprah blah blah blah.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Terr said:


> 'Blah blah blah pack leader blah blah calm submissive blah blah did I mention I'm friends with Oprah blah blah blah.


Except that Oprah has now turned to a positive reinforcement trainer to help her train her latest dogs.  ) The Loved World - Home


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Except that Oprah has now turned to a positive reinforcement trainer to help her train her latest dogs.  ) The Loved World - Home


I feel a bitch fight coming on!


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Except that Oprah has now turned to a positive reinforcement trainer to help her train her latest dogs.  ) The Loved World - Home


That's awesome news!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I feel a bitch fight coming on!


Hehe! It seems a lot of showbiz folks are opting for Tamar from the looks of it! 
The Loved World - Love Stories - Fan Letters Maybe it has dawned on them that CM ain't all that?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thats good to know from reading the advice on her site she seems great and very anti-CM


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Hehe! It seems a lot of showbiz folks are opting for Tamar from the looks of it!
> The Loved World - Love Stories - Fan Letters Maybe it has dawned on them that CM ain't all that?


Well whatever it is, I hope this influences their fans


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Is it possible to lobby US and UK TV companies to take on her show and broadcast it here?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It might be it would be good to see another postive trainer on tv


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

There is also the 'Original' Dog Whisperer as well! I have watched quite a few of his videos and to my way of thinking, he is worthy of the title 'Dog Whisperer'! It is a shame he did not copywrite the name really so that it could be used for a more genuine purpose.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> (re *tamar geller* + pos-R for Os pups -
> That's awesome news!


i like this article - 
Breaking Your Dog's Bad Habits - Oprah.com 
13-YO Std-Poodle with a severe habit of jumping and elderly owners? Whew! 
tough combo...


> *bold* added -
> _ "Josh only knew what I call the 'dark ages' of dog training," says dog trainer Tamar Geller. "You can't just give a dog a *command* and a *correction* and then *praise*, because it's not fun for the dog. No one wants orders barked at them, not even a dog." _


boy, i agree with that one... 
a brusque *boss* issuing orders without -teaching- what the cue MEANS is really a set-up for a prat fall. :nonod:


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i like this article -
> Breaking Your Dog's Bad Habits - Oprah.com
> 13-YO Std-Poodle with a severe habit of jumping and elderly owners? Whew!
> tough combo...
> ...


Thanks for sharing the link Terry.

I read through the interview, and she's obviously a really good trainer.

For instance, she uses a classic, traditional send-away to teach a dog to go to it's bed. Firstly, she recommends training the dog to lie down on a towel on your bed with treat bits as rewards. Then she recommends moving the towel slightly and rewarding the dog if he still understands to go onto the towel. Finally, move the towel on the floor or onto the dog's bed. Then she says,



> Instruct the dog to "go to bed," and if the initial training worked, it should associate the towel with the command, "go to bed," no matter where you place the towel. Continue to work with your dog until it makes the connection. Once it does, reward it with what Geller calls a "gold-level treat," such as a bite-size piece of chicken.
> 
> "Now the dog understands what you want him to do," Geller says. "He knows that when you tell him to go to bed, he's going to get a treat. You're just working with the concept of pain versus pleasure. You don't need to yell or get choke chains to teach your dog what you want him to do."


And there for me was the difference between her market and Cesar Millan's market.

She teaches people how to train their dogs. Cesar doesn't. Cesar says, on EVERY show, "I rehabilitate dogs and train people" or words to that effect.

I've never watched an episode of The Dog Whisperer yet where a puppy is placed on a choke chain and yelled at, simply to teach it how to go to bed. What I do see is dogs that have been failed by their owners; pit-bulls, rotties, german shepherds who Cesar tries to help. Many times these owners have tried other's training techniques/trainers but they didn't work. People don't call Cesar because their Bischon won't go to bed. They call Cesar because they have more serious problems, and the alternative "solution" doesn't bare thinking about.

If every new puppy owner followed Tamar Gellar's advice from the start, there would be no need for a Cesar Millan. Unfortunately though, that's not the case.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> If every new puppy owner followed Tamar Gellar's advice from the start, there would be no *need* for a Cesar Millan.


hey, classix! :--)

since there are pos-R trainers who tackle precisely the same ISSUES as CM/DW, 
using pos-R techniques and without prongs, chokes, slip-leads, bitey-hands, shock or Tsst!, 
i do *not* see a "need" for shock, chokes, prongs, bitey-hands, jerks, et al. 

YouTube - positive reinforcement for dog aggression a search page

pos-R for food-aggro / RG 
YouTube - Dog Training Food Aggression 10 21 09 
this is a very small woman with a very-tall M Dobe + a F-JRT - 
the Dobe gets nasty over food with his smaller k9-housemate. 
NOTICE how she gets Darwin (Dobe) to shift from lying in sphinx-pose to hip-over with a verbal *relax* cue...

having worked with dogs who have bite-histories successfully *sans* choking, hanging, jerks, pokes, etc, 
MYSELF - and i am not alone, plenty of other trainers do around the world - 
i regard such techniques as utterly superfluous, IMO + IME.

some further resources - 
positive reinforcement B-Mod for dog aggression - Google Search

Amazon.com: How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong: A Road Map for Rehabilitating Aggressive Dogs (9781577790754): Pamela S. Dennison: Books 
BTW - *pam dennison* the author is also a pos-R trainer; aggro is her specialty.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, classix! :--)
> 
> since there are pos-R trainers who tackle precisely the same ISSUES as CM/DW,
> using pos-R techniques and without prongs, chokes, slip-leads, bitey-hands, shock or Tsst!,
> ...


Thanks for the links Terry.

I guess what I am trying to convey on this thread is that I don't believe that Cesar should be discounted entirely as a source of useful information and understanding when it comes to dogs.

A lot of what he says makes sense.

Take for example, Be calm & assertive -- this works really well, not just for dogs, but as a way to live your everyday life  or Exercise, Discipline & Affection, in that order. This works really well with all dogs.

Yes; Cesar is always using the pack leader approach, but he doesn't use "prongs, chokes, slip-leads, bitey-hands, shock or Tsst!" on every dog in existence like some people make it seem, and when he does use those methods on dogs who are very aggressive or last-chancers, I admire him for working with dogs that many people would not touch.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Yes; Cesar is always using the pack leader approach, but he doesn't use "prongs, chokes, slip-leads, bitey-hands, shock or Tsst!" on every dog in existence like some people make it seem, and *when he does use those methods on dogs who are very aggressive or last-chancers, I admire him for working with dogs that many people would not touch. *


as i just pointed out, classix - 
many trainers around the world work with *very aggressive* or otherwise serious problem-behaviors, 
*without* "those methods" or those tools...

if *they* can do it via pos-R, why use aversives? food for thought...  
also, suppression is not B-Mod. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> as i just pointed out, classix -
> many trainers around the world work with *very aggressive* or otherwise serious problem-behaviors,
> *without* "those methods" or those tools...
> 
> ...


LOL. It's a good thing this isn't a religion or politics forum. If you and I discovered a finer point we could not agree on I am confident we'd be here forever.

You said it yourself when you said "many trainers around the world". Cesar Millan is not a dog trainer, nor does he claim to be.

It is not his responsibility, or obligation in life to become one either.

He simply relays his own views on life, based on his upbringing and beliefs. Some bigwigs in Hollywood liked what they saw and asked him to repeat the story in-front of a camera.

There are loads of dog training and dog behaviour programmes on TV. I tend to watch most of them and take from them things that I understand or believe to be true, and combine them to do the very best job I can in being my dog's owner. I think most smart owners would do the same thing.

I recently watched an episode of "It's Me or The Dog" with Victoria Stillwell, where she recommended a couple to have their 5 year old springer spaniel pet euthanized. This was because the dog had snapped twice at their young daughter. Victoria blamed it on "neurological problems".

Had that same dog been seen by Cesar, I know for a fact that it wouldn't now be dead. He's dealt with much worse than a snappy Springer.

But the thing is, I don't disrespect or come on here 'bashing' Victoria Stillwell. Instead, I see what there is that I can learn from her beliefs.

I watched a show on Sky TV about 3 months ago where an American female dog trainer recommended the owners put their dog on Prozac to calm it's destructive behaviours. How I laughed. What a solution! The owners can't cope with the dog, so both THEY and the DOG end up on Prozac. :lol:

Terry, have you never seen Cesar do ANYTHING that you thought was worthy of some positive feedback? Surely there must be something?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Terry, have you never seen Cesar do ANYTHING that you thought was worthy of some positive feedback? Surely there must be something?


yes, classix, there was! :thumbsup: 
he asked a pos-R trainer with many years of experience training for the film industry, to teach the Dal-puppy at the fire-station to *Stop, Drop + Roll. * excellent decision... * **** * 4 paws up!

all my best, 
--- terry


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> yes, classix, there was! :thumbsup:
> he asked a pos-R trainer with many years of experience training for the film industry, to teach the Dal-puppy at the fire-station to *Stop, Drop + Roll. * excellent decision... * **** * 4 paws up!
> 
> all my best,
> --- terry


LOL. So there you go then! Even you agree that Cesar doesn't pretend he's a dog trainer. When he needs a dog training, he goes to the dog trainers!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

CM has been shown on video to use electric collars, to hang dogs up on nooses, to repeatedly jab at them and even hit them in the face yet that is fine because 'he rehabilitates dogs'? He does not even know what a dog uses it's own tail for. :sosp: Yet Victoria Stilwell is judged on one episode where the dog was put down because of unpredictably and repeatedly biting a child, a decision which was ultimately made by the family after consulting with Victoria who did not actually tell them to put the dog down but discussed it with the family as an 'option', as too had the vet involved. People then sit in their ivory towers, people who have probably never had to deal with unpredictable, violent dogs themselves and judge her on the discussion that she had with the family at their own instigation? Would any of those people have taken in the spaniel themselves? Would it have been better to have rehomed the dog, passing the problem on? I think not. The decision was made by the family and from what I recall of the episode, it was not Victorias' order that they do so.

I'm not particularly a VS fan. I don't do celebrity worship and I am not so gullible as to believe that anyone on TV is what they seem.  CM is average, so is she. But her actual training methods have evolved with time and yes, she also rehabs aggressive dogs, but without the force and compulsion that the Dog Wrestler uses. :001_cool:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Take for example, Be calm & assertive -- this works really well, not just for dogs, but as a way to live your everyday life or Exercise, Discipline & Affection, in that order. This works really well with all dogs.


I agree with these statements in principle - but NOT the way Cesay acts upon them.

To me, being "calm and assertive" means not losing my temper, screaming and lashing out in frustration or anger. It means having some self control. The assertive bit to me means acting confident and sensible - so not pleading with a dog in baby-talk.

To CM this seems to mean "talk softly and carry a big stick". He may not shout or plead - he just yanks, stomps, hangs, shocks, jabs......

"Exercise, discipline, affection" - again I agree dogs need all 3, though not necessarily in that order and not in the way CM thinks.

Exercise - I do not believe dogs get the exercise they need simply through strictly controlled "pack walks", nor through being forced onto a treadmill.

To me exercise should include normal activities that dogs enjoy - walking, running, sniffing, rolling, playing, jumping, etc.

Discipline - To me this means having clear boundaries about what is and is not acceptable (ie being consistant), making an effort to socialise and train the dog so that it behaves in an acceptable manner.

To CM is means that the dog must be punished - usually using painful, physical violence - for every misbehaviour, whether or not the dog understands what is expected, or regardless of the cause of the behaviour. His idea of discipline is my idea of bullyinh at best - at worst abuse.

Affection - Aside from the obvious (ie petting and cuddles) I also take this to mean ensuring my dogs needs are met, ensuring that he is in a state of good welfare, and that is protected from all unnecessary suffering.

CM frequently chooses to use aversives or techniques that will cause the dog unnecessary suffering. He rarely (in my experience) seems to use positive reinforcement, or attempts to reduce fear. He does not seem to care what mood state the dog is in - hence dogs on his show wetting themselves, shaking, or shutting down. As he just dives straight in to punish every behaviour, he does not consider what may be causing it, thus in many cases the dogs needs are perhaps not being met. (Most behaviourists on the other hand take a detailed history, work through vet referrals etc).



> People don't call Cesar because their Bischon won't go to bed. They call Cesar because they have more serious problems, and the alternative "solution" doesn't bare thinking about.


Like the poor St Bernard whose terrible crime was to be nervous of stairs?

Who could easily have overcome his fears using positive reinforcement, improving the bond with his owners, reducing his levels of fear and stress?

The dog who was run in and out of the house so CM could gain enough momentum to physically drag this poor dog up the stairs on a choke chain, probably causing all sorts of neck damage in the process and no doubt giving the dog a very good reason indeed to hate stairs?


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

He also advises agility, herding, mushing (lovely to see being a sled dog owner myself), swimming, rollerblading...Whatever! He finds a trainer in the area he thinks will benefit the dog and takes the owners to see what its like. He does not think he can wave a magic wand and change a dog in one hour, he is the first to say it isnt a quick fix!!! I mean he spent 3 months + on Gavin alone!!! And shock horror, he also removes prong collars if he feels it is making the dog worse!

He uses a huge amount of techniques on dogs, all seen used by other trainers  Treats, positive association, ignorance, distraction, re direction. Its just that he deals with lots of cases that most wouldnt, so of course with these he has to use a different approach. Sooner that then the dog PTS, which DOES happen. When he is dealing with a simple case it is very different. I dont think sticking a treat/clicker in front of a dog thats trying to bite you will cut it!! On top of that if the owner can not keep the dog for whatever reason, HE takes the dog and re-homes it himself. One case the owner put a dog down, which he was very unhappy about as he knew there were other options.

I am a Cesar fan, but Im not going to sit here and argue with a bunch of people who would sooner see these dogs dead, and all the other dogs he saves from puppy mills and death row shelters dead. And begrudge a man making money to help his charities. If the owner can not keep the dog for whatever reason, HE takes the dog and re-homes it himself, so let him make money I say.

Im sorry, but this man is a true dog lover in my eyes. If you dont agree thats fine, you have your own opinion which is great. But Im not going to stick around why the same people say the same things on a daily basis.

I have dogs to take care of


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> But her actual training methods have evolved with time and yes, she also rehabs aggressive dogs, but without the force and compulsion that the Dog Wrestler uses. :001_cool:


No, she doesn't. And she says this herself. Many times when asked if aggressive dogs she trains can be in the same room off lead she says no, she can make the situation bareable, but not harmonious.
I have nothing against her, but she is not good with these hard cases.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> I'm not going to sit here and argue with a bunch of people who would sooner see these dogs dead


Nobody has said they would prefer to see these dogs dead. The entire point we are trying to make is that these dogs could be saved just as easily, with MORE effective, lasting results without the abusive and high risk methods CM relies on.

The dogs do not have to die, but nor do they have to be abused in the name of training / rehab.



> I don't think sticking a treat/clicker in front of a dog that's trying to bite you will cut it!!


This comment clearly indicates you do not know how such trainers / behaviourists work. I don't know anyone that would think this a smart option.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

But these dogs would die. The owners say it themselves. These dogs would be PTS, is my point. This is often their last chance. And as I said, for one the owners did decided to do that.

And if other trainers can help these dogs, in a better way as you suggest. WHY don't they? WHY do so many get PTS?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> But these dogs would die. The owners say it themselves. These dogs would be PTS, is my point.


Yes - but at their owners request. NOT because of humane trainers "would sooner see these dogs dead" as you originally claimed. If you read back through this and some of the other CM related threads you would notice that a number of humane, experienced trainers / behaviourists have stated they have recommended euthanasia in few, if any, cases.



> And if other trainers can help these dogs, in a better way as you suggest. WHY don't they? WHY do so many get PTS?


1) It is not the dog, nor the trainer / behaviourist, who makes the decisions - it is the owners.

2) Many people prefer to seek help from a "celebrity" who they can brag about to their mates, rather than a qualified professional they got via a vet referral.

3) Many people want a "quick fix". Many are too lazy to put in the time and effort to properly rehab / retrain the dog and want to see immediate results. It doesn't matter that these results may only last a matter of days - just as long as they see them immediately.

4) Many people like the dominance theory. I know that sounds harsh, but in many cases it is true. Owners who are at their wits end, angry and scared of their dogs, do not want to hear that their dog is stressed, scared, etc even if it is true. They want to be told the dog is "dominant" and that they should "punish" it, because this will alleviate their anger.

Again - please do not assume that CM is the only person helping difficult "last chance" dogs. There are thousands of others doing the same thing, without resorting to abuse. Sadly, few have made it onto prime time TV.

There is also the point that many of the methods CM uses are known to cause behaviour problems, inc aggression. Why would try to save an aggressive dog by using methods known to cause aggression?


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Not all of these dogs have owners.. The shelters he works with, the dog wardens he works with, the charities to stop puppy mills, the dogs that are due to be electrocutes in Mexico. They would be dead.
He works with them so the dogs can be rehomed. By saying you don't think Cesar should do what he does you are condemning these dogs to death. By saying you don't agree he should make money from his books/shows/seminars, you are condemning these dogs to death.
As for quick fix, I don't call months as his centre quick.

I by no means think he is _the only person _willing to do this, but as someone who is willing to do this I hope his work continues.

I'm not going to go round in circles here. I've made my mind up about Cesar, as have you. I'm sure this will go on for many more pages, I don't need to read post after post saying the same thing.

Enjoy


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Then just to make this clear:

I am very much in favour of CM's stance on puppy mills, BSL, adoption / rescue etc.
I have no problem with him or anyone else rehabilitating dogs so that they do not have to die. I am very much in support of it.

I just think he should be doing what he does in a more effective, more humane, more safe manner. 
If he could change his methods, he could still do all the good he does without abusing dogs in the process.

I am certainly not "condemning dogs to death" simply because I do not think his methods are any good.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Colette said:


> I am certainly not "condemning dogs to death" simply because I do not think his methods are any good.


Nope, neither am I. Dogs like this can be helped over their problems with far more humane methods. But that takes brains and time.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Nope, neither am I. Dogs like this can be helped over their problems with far more humane methods. But that takes brains and time.


*In that case Cesar Millan is doing a good job as apparently people with no time or brains turn to him.*


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Dogs like this can be helped over their problems with far more humane methods.


And the ones to be electrocuted??? I give up...

I knew there was a reason I didn't get involved with this.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Ok as far as I remember from the Mexico one that was the one with that poor chinese crested mix that was really sick right? He wasn't fixing the dogs all he was doing was helping them pick 4 or 5 to be brought back to the US and then helping some back in the US not saving them from electrocution as such because the rescue was already doing that.

One of the few things I like about him he does a lot of work for rescues and if someone asks him to help them pick a new dog he gets a rescue for them.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

i guess i see the whole dominance thing like this:

imagine a 12 year old kid whos parents do a poor job managing the household. the kid must make his own meals, clean things up, keep tabs on all members of the family, in ADDITION to just being a kid (which includes thingas like homework, extracurriculars, play, etc). pretty soon this kid starts to feel lik he is responsible for EVERYTHING. every failure of the household is his fault, so he stresses himself even harder to make everything right. eventualy, the kid is gonna have some abnormnal behaviours due to this constant state of stress, anxiety, fear, and self retribution. he may be irritable and lash out all the time, he may be depressed, he may become so afraid of anything and everything becuase his self esteem has plummeted.
now imagine that after all of this, a capable adult enters into the equation. the adult takes this burden off of the kid, a burden that he never should have had in the first place. the kid will feel a certain peace of mind that he does not have to control EVERYTHING anymore. that he knows everything will be taken care of, and he can re-learn how to be a kid again.
how would you feel if this were you? relieved? sad for whast you have been through? scared to release the burden to someone else?
all these mixed feelings create a turmoil, and there probably will be a period of chaos while the adult is taking over the burden, that the kid has had for so long, he does not know how to NOT have it.
i think this is the chaos we see in the DW episodes. the dogs are stressed, yes. but they were stressed in the first place. their guardians did a poor job at making them feel secure in self and environment. the dogs feel the need to try and do EVERYHITNG because as they see it, no one else is.
CM enters the picture to teach the guardian to take the burden from the dog, a burden the poor dog should never have had. the word used is "dominate" which has many interpretations. the domination i see is just claiming ownership of that control of EVERYTHING, which a dog (nor a 12 year old) can manage. the dog (or kid) does not know that he wants someone to take the burden from him, thus the chaos, fights, and tantrums. but really, its just the stress and fear of learning to be a dog (or kid) again.
i dont disagree that this process is stressful for the dog, but "dominancce" is a way of ending this stress for a dog so he doesnt have to live it forever.

JMO

edit:: and i completely agree that poeple misinterpret "dominance" and use the concept in a way that harms more than helps. that is a different matter completetly, but it is of course related.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

But why would that adult feel the need to pin down, choke or pinch the child?


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

my point was not to adress to actual METHODS. i was adressing the concept of dominance in general and pointing out that it may not be the power trip that some percieve it as. or it may be, no one is right or wrong.
i was just pointing out an opinion that hasnt been presented.

the methods to achieve domination are a totally different topic and have entirely nothing to do with my point.

your question is valid though, but it is not one i have a concrete view on.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

kello82 said:


> i guess i see the whole dominance thing like this:
> 
> imagine a 12 year old kid whos parents do a poor job managing the household. the kid must make his own meals, clean things up, keep tabs on all members of the family, in ADDITION to just being a kid (which includes thingas like homework, extracurriculars, play, etc). pretty soon this kid starts to feel lik he is responsible for EVERYTHING. every failure of the household is his fault, so he stresses himself even harder to make everything right.


Interesting analogy.  But an adult stepping in and taking over is more 'taking responsibility' rather than 'dominating' which is to 'rule and to govern' etc? With my children I looked after their needs and took my responsibility for them seriously without 'dominating' everything that they did. To do so would have been to stifle them and they would never have learned how to think for themselves.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I have yet to see any evidence that all the various behaviour problems are caused by "dominance", nor that the dogs feel they must be responsible for everything.

Even if one believes in dominance theory - how can a dog possibly be dominant? The dog can not control virtually anything - it can not decide when to go in / out of the house, when or what to eat, what its owners do, etc. So how can the dog feel any need to control all this - the owner already does?

I do not believe for one minute that: 

a dog being nervous of shiny floors or climbing stairs
a dog showing aggression to other dogs, thanks to lack of socialisation or a bad experience
a dog chasing small animals / livestock
a dog pulling on the lead
etc
is "dominant" or stressed out at having to take responsibility for everything.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Lets not forget not eating or a small puppy stealing food that had been left lying around.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Interesting analogy.  But an adult stepping in and taking over is more 'taking responsibility' rather than 'dominating' which is to 'rule and to govern' etc? With my children I looked after their needs and took my responsibility for them seriously without 'dominating' everything that they did. To do so would have been to stifle them and they would never have learned how to think for themselves.


ah exactly, the word "dominate" can be interpreted many different ways. youre right, to dominate in the sense that youre talking about, would be to strip the individual of any sense of self.
in reference to DW, i think dominant DOEs mean taking responsibility for the control that a dog should not be resposible for. and to GIVE him that responsibility is harmful even.
so dog can just be a DOG, which iscludes all of his own doggie responsibilites. i suppose there is a balance, and i belive that the concept of dominance that DW presents is to walk that balance.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MarKalAm said:


> Not all of these dogs have owners...
> The shelters he works with, the *dog wardens* he works with, the charities to stop puppy mills, the dogs that are due to be electrocute(d) in Mexico. *They would be dead.*
> He works with them so the dogs can be rehomed. By saying you don't think Cesar should do what he does you are condemning these dogs to death. By saying you don't agree he should make money from his books/shows/seminars, you are condemning these dogs to death.
> As for quick fix, I don't call months as his centre quick.
> ...


in that case, i will not address U as the author but the issues - 
* something between 3 + 5 Million dogs + cats are euthed annually, in the USA. 
* many are behaviorally normal - 
they just happen to be surplus, as in HOMELESS, and often in the wrong place. 
the Southeast + Southwest have many pups in shelters; Northwest cities + the Northeast as a whole, few. 
transportation has helped get healthy babies to eager adopters; that does nothing for dogs over 6-MO.

* many just _aren;t the hot commodity_: 
they are not perfect - 
under 10-WO, incredibly cute, adorably affiliative, obviously identifiable as the Breed-of-the-*Month* or Breed-of-the-*Week* or Breed-of-the-*Day* (depending upon the attn-span of the potential adopter,  and what latest press-release s/he saw about a celebrity getting a Taiwanese Trotter or Hawaiian Haole-Dog or whatever), in short... 
they are just dogs or pups, mismarked, potty-bellied with worms or shy or mouthy or dirty-coated or barky or tangled or reactive to other dogs or shedding or *excited to meet somebody, FINALLY!*, or whatever other im-perfection the seeker perceives. (shrug)

if they walk-by and the dog/pup is asleep, or a recent-arrival and still shocked by the new-setting, they keep walking; they want an animal that *fits* their schedule, that is READY right-now to greet them like the Second-Coming and fawn over them, or they want the aloof dog of the hard-breed that will make the perfect impression on a chain-leash with a studded-collar, or they want the purse-pup like _*Haris Pilton had last week... :001_tt1: ooohhh... :001_tt1: wow... even tho she no longer has the dog, she gave it to her hairdresser or her chauffeur or the neighbors kids or back to the breeder or summat... *_ whatever preconception they arrive with, the dog or pup has to fit that image, type, temp, size, and so on. 
they have a preconfigured-pigeonhole, and the dog has to fit it. (shrug) 
needless to say, many do not.

then U have eejits who GET a dog based on **but they were going to KILL this dear innocent creature*...* 
they don;t CARE if the dog weighs 150# and they live in a studio-apt walk-up with 4 flights of steps and no yard; the dog will DIE, don;t we GET that?! 
or the dog has a bite-history, hates kids, barks insanely, *has a chronic health problem THAT * THEY * CANNOT * AFFORD * TO * AMELIORATE but they get the dog with crumbling hips or chronic skin-infection and then DO * NOT treat or relieve the symptoms... BUT * SHE * OR * HE * IS * ALIVE, doncha Get It? * shelters + rescues hate to see these folks coming, they dread them.  
they get an impossible animal for impossible circs, and then of course, they blame the shelter or rescue - who placed the animal with them, and its all their fault.  
that they had screaming hysterics and burst into tears when the shelter-staff suggested gently that perhaps another animal would better suit their life, their athletic-ability, their budget, etc, is entirely beside the point. :huh: THEY did it, and now its just terrible, *see how i have been wronged, and i just wanted to help... * happens every day; they are TOLD the animal has this problem or that behavior, but they refuse to listen, _*all this dear creature needs is love... *_ :ihih: :001_wub: and by DoG, they are going to PROVIDE that love... 
the fact that the animal also needs food apropos to its species, in amounts apropos to their size, and exercise, shelter, enrichment, training, social time, vet-care, meds, surgery, TIME, and any other specific requirements is immaterial; they have the *LUV* this poor dear creature needs, and that is all that matters.

FACT: 
*Love is never *all* that an animal needs.* that is the constant, but also the minimum.

shelters + their issues are WAY beyond any person; they are complex, emotional, and enormous. 
the surplus of dogs and cats in the USA in a week could be the YEARs total in the UK - whatever it is, 
its a whole-LOT bigger here than there.

plenty of folks work with shelters as volunteers - i have, i do, i will. 
plenty of folks work with rescue - i have, i do, i will. 
plenty of folks work with adopters, with difficult behavior, with frankly dangerous dogs; 
i have, i do, i will.

the point is not merely *that we help - but what methods + tools we use, to attain a goal.* 
i could use a 2-by-4 to *teach* a horse not to run at me across a field, even in play; 
i could also be arrested for that. :blink: which may or may not dissuade some people. :nonod: 
*i could bring my closed-fist down on the nose of a leaping-Lab, to TEACh that dog NOT to leap-up - 
but i won;t, not because i might be arrested but because i feel it is WRONG to punish, 
rather than to teach, AND because punishment / aversives carry a huge risk of serious behavioral fallout. *

we all have choices - IMO + IME, _*the end does not justify the means. 
if there is a more humane, effective alternative for this individual, i feel that is the ethical and appropriate choice. SPEED is not IMO a factor so much as long-term successful installation of desirable behaviors, or the B-Mod of un-desired behaviors via reducing, redirecting, retraining or extinction of the presenting problem-behavior. effective, humane, efficient, and LIMA standards - Least-Invasive, Minimally-Aversive - tailored to the individuals i am working with: the pet, the family, the shelter, the rescue, the circumstances.

right there U have my mission statement and my ethics. 
all my best, 
--- terry*_


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

classixuk said:


> LOL. It's a good thing this isn't a religion or politics forum. If you and I discovered a finer point we could not agree on I am confident we'd be here forever.
> 
> You said it yourself when you said "many trainers around the world". Cesar Millan is not a dog trainer, nor does he claim to be.
> 
> ...


Rep for you! x


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

kello82 said:


> i guess i see the whole dominance thing like this:
> 
> imagine a 12 year old kid whos parents do a poor job managing the household. the kid must make his own meals, clean things up, keep tabs on all members of the family, in ADDITION to just being a kid (which includes thingas like homework, extracurriculars, play, etc). pretty soon this kid starts to feel lik he is responsible for EVERYTHING. every failure of the household is his fault, so he stresses himself even harder to make everything right. eventualy, the kid is gonna have some abnormnal behaviours due to this constant state of stress, anxiety, fear, and self retribution. he may be irritable and lash out all the time, he may be depressed, he may become so afraid of anything and everything becuase his self esteem has plummeted.
> now imagine that after all of this, a capable adult enters into the equation. the adult takes this burden off of the kid, a burden that he never should have had in the first place. the kid will feel a certain peace of mind that he does not have to control EVERYTHING anymore. that he knows everything will be taken care of, and he can re-learn how to be a kid again.
> ...


Good interpretation. Dominance is NOT always about exerting physical force.


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Rep for you! x


ditto, that was an AWESOME post classix!!
love the open minded attitude


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *In that case Cesar Millan is doing a good job as apparently people with no time or brains turn to him.*


Like me and you Jan. Not to mention cruel for agreeing with his methods.

What terrible people we are ..........


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Good interpretation. Dominance is NOT always about exerting physical force.


hey thank you goodv!

glad to know that the point is clear at least lol


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

kello82 said:


> hey thank you goodv!
> 
> glad to know that the point is clear at least lol


Yes but unfortunately to certain people this is not. Dominance is merely about pinning down dogs, choking them and physically abusing them.

With his recent visit to the UK these posts have got more and more frequent.

Heard the term Bible Bashers? On here it is Cesar Bashers! lol :thumbup:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I agree with it to some degree dogs need rules boundaries and limitations to quote CM but what I don't agree with is the methods he uses or that dogs are constantly trying to take over the world and if you don't turn them into robots they will take over and because vicious aggressive monsters


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just a few points to add here:

1) I am well aware that "dominance" is not just about alha rolling and choking. However, the entire dominance thing has been totally disproved time and again. Dogs do NOT live in the tight packs with a strict linear hierarchy and indiciduals competing for position as top dog. This is simply false.

2) Even if one accepts that some form of hierarchy exists, and that some dogs display "dominant" behaviours, that does NOT mean that every behaviour is dominance based. 
Behaviour problems may be caused by anything from illness / injury, fear or pain, normal behaviour that is simply unwanted by the owner, lack of socialisation or training, etc.

3) You will not solve a specific behaviour problem by implementing general "dominance reduction" techniques like eating first, not allowing the dog on the bed etc. 

4) My objection to CM is two-fold. 

The first point is that he talks total rubbish, spouting theories that are unfounded and untrue, and attributing everything to dominance with no evidence whatsoever.

The second is the methods he chooses to use. As you guys have said dominance is not all about alpha rolling and hanging - but that's what CM relies upon. His idea of gaining dominance over the dog is to use intimidation, bullying and abuse to get the dog to fear him.

Interestingly, CM is not the only person spouting the old dominance myth - but he is the one I tend to object most strongly to - because of his methods.

I don't "bash" Jan Fennel like this, because despite her theories being wrong her methods are not downright dangerous and abusive. If people want to follow her advice and always eat before the dog, not allow the dog on the furniture, get the dog to sit for everything, etc then fine - makes no odds to me. Each to their own I suppose.

But CM is advocating causing dogs vast amounts of pain, risking extreme suffering and behavioural fallout, not to mention serious injury to both dog and handler. I see this as a very serious welfare issue.

If I saw some stranger on the street hanging his dog from a choke chain until it passed out I would intervene and call the police - why should CM get away with it?


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Colette said:


> Just a few points to add here:
> 
> 1) I am well aware that "dominance" is not just about alha rolling and choking. However, the entire dominance thing has been totally disproved time and again. Dogs do NOT live in the tight packs with a strict linear hierarchy and indiciduals competing for position as top dog. This is simply false.
> 
> ...


Great post. And I agree about Jan Fennell - she may be totally bonkers and get things wrong but at least she's humane.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> ...CM is advocating causing dogs vast amounts of pain, risking extreme suffering and behavioural fallout, not to mention serious injury to both dog and handler. *I see this as a very serious welfare issue.*


i agree, colette - 
_the number of dogs Cesar SEES + HANDLES_ whatever the outcome, whether the dog gets better-behaved or grows much-worse or is un-changed, _is miniscule_; but due to his market-saturation + the media-engine behind him, the number of Dogs Whose Lives He Can Impact *profoundly* is astronomical;

anybody who gets a TV-channel carrying CM/DW, 
anybody in a bookstore who goes by an end-cap of HANDLING  titles, 
anybody in a pet-supply store 
anybody cruising UTube...

whether they know what they are looking-at re dog-behavior or not, whether they have any idea 
of dog-body-lang and what the dog is feeling - they are the audience, too, and that is a risk, IMO + IME.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i know the TV-show carries the disclaimer **NOT to do this at home** - 
i know the 1st-edition of his first 2 books did not have that. (i read them both.) 

2 or 3 folks that i spoke to, who had his 1st-DVD, said that it had No Disclaimer - not on the cover nor in the early-footage. 

Q - 
does anyone know if the disclaimer has been added to more recent editions, 
or more recent publications / releases? 
if U have seen the disclaimer anywhere but on the TV episodes of CM/DW, please include which country / DVD zone, 
as legal requirements will vary; some countries mandate a disclaimer for all DIY type video or books. 

many thanks for any info, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Staying on topic, this is one of the best blog pieces I have read about this subject! http://trainertails.blogspot.com/2010/03/dogs-are-worshiped-but-not-protected.html

Quoted directly from that post is the following;



> Two recent personal events that illustrate this decline in the desire for people to find out the humane way of doing things when it comes to training dogs.
> 
> 1 - On a recent dog training session my wife Vyolet Michaels CTC was working with a couple that tried CM's methods based on watching him on TV, and made the dog so fearful, that the dog was a "shaking bag of bones" to quote my wife. After she explained the fall outs of pain and fear based methods the people said they would have "never done that stuff" if they knew the "truth about what could happen". The operative word here is the truth. The good news is that the dog is now on a legit and humane path towards recovery. The warning on CM's show does not say *why* not to copy him, it just says don't do it.
> 
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hey, caro! :--) 
thanks for that link - the Q+A with the AHA was enlightening, if saddening. 
PR-spin has a firm grip on the (not-yet confirmed for date) training symposium. :nonod:

these are EXCELLENT basic-knowledge Qs - 


> *bold* and underline added at bottom -
> _1  How do dogs learn?
> 2  What are the quadrants of operant conditioning? How are they used?
> 3  By and large how do dogs view the world?
> ...


i am not sure exactly what hes asking for in the Q re 4-steps of B-Mod :huh: 
i would presume 
Identify the presenting problem, 
Isolate the triggers, 
Plan a B-Mod protocol, 
Evaluate progress + tweak as needed.

but that is a guess!  any thoughts? 
--- terry


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i am not sure exactly what hes asking for in the Q re 4-steps of B-Mod :huh:
> i would presume
> Identify the presenting problem,
> Isolate the triggers,
> ...


I would have thought:
1. determine triggers
2. management
3. functional analysis/i.d. reinforcers/remove rewards
4. teach alternative behaviour


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> I would have thought:
> 1. determine triggers
> 2. management
> 3. functional analysis/i.d. reinforcers/remove rewards
> 4. teach alternative behaviour


ya know, U are absolutely right -  i should *never* assume management. duh! :blink: i;m awake, now... 
thanks, ann!

--- terry


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> bold and underline added at bottom -
> 1  How do dogs learn?
> 2  What are the quadrants of operant conditioning? How are they used?
> 3  By and large how do dogs view the world?
> ...


Do you really think that these are good questions? To me it looks more like a test, where there are right and wrong answers. And to be honest, I don't know the right answer to half of these questions (which of course could mean that I'm not worth a damn as a dog trainer, but as a matter of fact I know quite a bit about modern learning theories).

I agree that it's important to discuss dog training, but the questions should have been more open and less biased to encourage a discussion. Do you really think that someone who doesn't have the key to this test is likely to engage in a discussion about it? And those who have all the right answers would probably just agree, not discuss.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Vicki said:


> Do you really think that these are good questions? To me it looks more like a test, where there are right and wrong answers. [snip]...
> 
> I agree that it's important to discuss dog training, but the questions should have been more open and less biased to encourage a discussion. ...those who have all the right answers would probably just agree, not discuss.


hey, vicky! :--)

well, some clearly do have Right + Wrong answers - 
the quadrants (or quintants ) of OC are factual, ya know em or ya don't.

but *How do dogs view the world?* should be open to discussion, surely? 
or even what >> * I * << think is important to know before turning 2 dogs loose to play, could vary from what U think is critical-info.

i dunno - some of them are factual, some are opinion, some could be experiential. 
their own experiences as a trainer can shape their preferred tools + methods...  doncha think so?

are there Qs on the list that U would simply throw-out?

all my best, 
--- terry


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Vicki said:


> And to be honest, I don't know the right answer to half of these questions (which of course could mean that I'm not worth a damn as a dog trainer, but as a matter of fact I know quite a bit about modern learning theories).


On a slight slant to this, I am not a trainer or behaviourist and I don't know half the answers either - but in a manner of 'glass half-full/half-empty' - I DO know half!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I... am not a trainer or behaviourist and I don't know half the answers either - but in a manner of 'glass half-full / half-empty' - I DO know half!


ah, but which half? :lol: :laugh: :001_tt2:  neener-neener-neener...


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> ah, but which half? :lol: :laugh: :001_tt2:  neener-neener-neener...


Guess! :lol: :laugh: :001_tt2:
Bloody Norah, I just realised it's 4.16am.... clocks just jumped an hour forwards to British Summer Time.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, vicky! :--)
> 
> well, some clearly do have Right + Wrong answers -
> the quadrants (or quintants ) of OC are factual, ya know em or ya don't.
> ...


Some of the questions were good, but others I would simply throw-out, yes.

The first question is good, I think. It doesn't have a right or wrong answer, which means that you might get different answers from different persons and that would of course open up for discussion. The second question is unnecessary, because it's part of the answer to the first question.

Question 13 is also quite good, because it can be discussed. However, it can also be interesting to discuss the fallout of other methods.

The question about how dogs view the world is an open question, but it's diffuse and very big. It's like saying "how does the Chinese view the world?" There are about as many answers to that as it is people in China. Also, any answer would only be speculative, becuase we have no way of knowing how dogs view the world, only theories. It doesn't mean that it's not interesting to discuss, but the question needs to be rephrased and perhaps narrowed down to several questions.

I would throw out all the questions with a right or wrong answer, which probably is most of them. However, some of them can be rephrased to be more open for discussion. For example "What are the three main things to work on with puppies?" would be a much better question if the number three was removed. It would be much more open for discussion and you'd get a lot of different answers which say a lot about the person as a trainer.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Vicki said:


> I would throw out all the questions with a right or wrong answer, which probably is most of them.


now i AM confused, vicky - :blink: 
the purpose of this List was twofold: 
for APOs to garner some idea of whether their potential trainer has real knowledge, 
and for trainers themselves to determine if other trainers have both common ground + actual knowledge, vs salesmanship.

in that sense, it is not a test so much as an assessment, IMO. 
not just a series of topical discussions - but a survey of ones real knowledge base. 


> _ For example "What are the three main things to work on with puppies?" would be a much better question if the number three was removed. _


why? *Socialization* + *Habituation* are 2 givens that are absolutely mandatory for EVERY puppy. 
only #3 is potentially *discussion* - off the top of my head, i would say...

the 3 Most-Important puppy-lessons are 
* *socialization* 
to living-creatures: 
human, dog, cat, anything they may encounter + need to tolerate or interact with socially. 
* *habituation* 
these are experiences + contexts: 
cookie-visits to vet + groomer, accepting handling, claw-trims, ear-cleaning, rectal-temps, elevators, traffic, leashes, EVERYthing that this pup might conceivably need in their lifetime. 
if U live on a thousand-acre ranch in Texas, the dog STILL needs to learn to walk on a leash, wear a collar, go to the vet in a car, accept friendly strangers, etc, etc.

* Number-3 IMO would be *basic manners, self-control + foundation behaviors* - 
housetraining, infant-recall, polite greetings to dogs + humans, etc.

since only 2 of 5 dogs in the USA **die** in the same home that got them as pups, they need to be equipped 
for other settings, experiences, and ppl. IMO it is narrow-minded + presumptive to ASSUME that 
this dog + U will forever be *here*, wherever here might be, and living *this lifestyle*... 
whatever that might be.  life is change... pups + dogs need the tools + skills to cope, 
*with* or *without* Us.

all my best, 
--- terry


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

It was interesting to read these and most of them, apart from the discussion type ones, are standard ouestions that you would expect to get on any dog behaviour/training course. It doesn't mean that you know the answers immediately, but that you would go off and find the information to answer them. One of the 'training theory' courses I did was very very similar to this. In fact, some of them could be the exact same ones!

They actually look 'harder' than they are, because of the language, the language of dog training i.e. various types of conditioning, reinforcements, etc., etc. Is not always an easy one. If you want to understand more of the 'terms' used, have a look at Excelerated Learning, by Pamela Reid. 

I remember when I first started training assistance dogs we had to say what sort of conditioning we were using (we all knew what we were doing and how to do it, but to put it into 'behaviour' terms was worlds away from what I knew at the time (in case you want to know it was Operant conditioning with Classical undertones!!!).

I would certainly expect anyone who is saying they are a behaviourist to be able to give good answers to most of these, I would also expect a trainer, who was working as such, to be able to answer 'most' of them. However, I would not expect someone working in a Rescue Environment to be able to answer more than half.

I also know some extremely good trainers, who wouldn't be able to answer half of these, yet if you gave them the problem, the dog and the owner, they would be absoultely spot on with their advice.

I will say it again, as I have said it before, I have met people who have all this 'stuff' off pat, ask them all the theory you want, they will have perfect answers, give them a dog or an owner, it all falls apart!!!

So Merlins Mum and Vicky, fear not, it doesn't make you any worse a trainer and you may in fact have a lot more practical 'hands on' knowledge and experience than some of these 'employed' behaviourists - some of which haven't even got their own dogs (believe me, I have met a few of them!).

Having said all this, if I was arranging some sort of seminar and someone came up and gave me this list, asking for me to provide answers, I think I would be a bit 'miffed' at the time and that there were very rude!!


Kate


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I very much see this from Drayton Michael's point of view (the writer of the questions) in so far as Millan messed up saying that the AHA supproted him. He then back tracked and said he wanted to attend the symposium in order to gain support.

So if that is the case, which I believe it to be, than he is looking to 'prove' something; then yes I think an assessment on par with the expected standard is required.

I believe that a 'behaviourist' should be able to answer all of these questions well. I think that a 'trainer' should be able to answer almost all of these questions well - there are some that perhaps fall outside the remit of a trainer. But then Millan does not call himself a trainer  (sorry had to put that one in there!).

I also believe that BOTH theory knowledge and practical application of that knowledge are essential to fully understand the concepts discussed in these questions. 
If a 'trainer' or 'behaviourist' has only half of that then IMO there is something not quite right.
In order to explain concepts to pet owners then a professional should have a higher, in-depth understanding of these areas so as to therefore explain these topics to people who don't have nor want this level of understanding.
It is usually pretty easy to spot someone who only has half of the package by listening to them speak and/or watch them work. I work in animal care education and we will have students who have read the books or the handouts and prattle back concepts and topics ad nauseum but are unable to apply that knowledge in a practical setting.
And we come across lots of people who are able to carry out practical tasks yet find it difficult to explain the basis for their ideas.
That to me is just not good enough. From a safety, professional and ethical point of view professionals should have the full package before giving advice willy-nilly. I believe that to be the way to improve animal welfare - by improving educaiton of pet owners.
Ok off my soap box


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

I totally agree Tripod and feel there should be some 'standard' that anyone in the business of training dogs and giving advice should have undertaken, a sort of 'licence' perhaps.

I know, there is the APDT, but trainers who belong to this may not still have any 'formal' dog qualifications and that concerns me. It is also extremely easy over the internet, to pay for membership to certain dog training/animal welfare/health organisations and use their affix, without any proof of experience!

E.G. Back in 1996, the APDT had not long been set up, I was running my own dog training club at the time, I got all the paperwork to be assessed and filled in the forms, (I still have them to this day and they are so basic it is to be believed). I didn't send them off as was offered a job just as I was going to do so, managing a rescue (one of the large ones), which would also involve working with their behaviourist and moved areas, closing the club, thus not needing or being able to have the assessment (which would have been from someone I knew well through dog training).

However, although I had done a number of courses back then, I had no formal qualifications, but I would still have my registration today.

I know the APDT try and put guidelines in and promote CPD, but as we know and have heard on here, there are still APDT trainers who do not really abide by the code of conduct that the organisation requires and that is why it is so important for owners, if they end up at one of these clubs, to ensure they let the APDT know what they have found.

APBC is different, formal training and evidence is required, so basically choosing a APBC registered behaviourist, does give you the knowledge that the sort of things in these 'questions' will have been covered formally, but it doesn't follow always that the 'practical' side has been addressed.

Personally, I don't think you can have theory without the practical either, but am continually surprised how often this is the case with practicing behaviourists and trainers. 

Kate


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It's been about 8 years since I was an apdt member but back then it did have the stipulation that you had to have some qualifications and be furthering your education by stating which courses or seminars etc you were doing each year? I would hope that standards have not slipped since then. : I remember being assessed before my membership was accepted too by having someone turn up to observe my class and teaching style etc.


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## Thisbe (Mar 17, 2010)

i love him and met him the other day filming for the new series in the UK. We provided horses for filming as the dog had a problem with horses and he was lovely.

I admitted the dog need more work so has agreed to come back next week and was lovely to my dog. BIG FAN


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## k8t (Oct 13, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> It's been about 8 years since I was an apdt member but back then it did have the stipulation that you had to have some qualifications and be furthering your education by stating which courses or seminars etc you were doing each year? I would hope that standards have not slipped since then. : I remember being assessed before my membership was accepted too by having someone turn up to observe my class and teaching style etc.


They have just changed their assessment process, when I applied, it was the same as you say, purely someone coming to my class and watching the way I taught, bear in mind this was a few years ago now and things have changed dramatically in the last 14 years, although I am pleased to say no one was allowed to use Check Chains in my classes, only reward based training, no forced retrieves etc. etc., all of which were the norm then, I am afraid to say.

I hope that there would have been assessment every year and proof of CPD in some form, but I am not sure that there was. Although you were asked to write down any course attended, there was no formal qualification needed.

I am pleased to see that now they are improving the standard for membership, does anyone know if that will apply to existing members?

Membership for Dog Trainers - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK

Kate


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## kello82 (Jan 22, 2010)

Thisbe said:


> i love him and met him the other day filming for the new series in the UK. We provided horses for filming as the dog had a problem with horses and he was lovely.
> 
> I admitted the dog need more work so has agreed to come back next week and was lovely to my dog. BIG FAN


nice to hear thoughts from someone who has met with him, thanks for sharing your experience Thisbe


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

k8t said:


> I hope that there would have been assessment every year and proof of CPD in some form, but I am not sure that there was. Although you were asked to write down any course attended, there was no formal qualification needed.
> 
> I am pleased to see that now they are improving the standard for membership, does anyone know if that will apply to existing members?
> Membership for Dog Trainers - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK


hey, k8t! :--)

that was *precisely* why i wanted to join the UK-apdt, but they had stopped accepting non-UK members - 
i *liked* the idea of having standards! :thumbup: i was also profoundly disappointed that the USA-apdt has YET to make some sort of actual statement about the use of severe aversives, or any limits on tools or techniques; basically, if U have never been convicted of animal-cruelty  the USA-apdt is fine with that... 
which means *shock, choke, prong, narrow-slip-collars that close to infinity*, etc, are all accepted. 
(maybe not promoted - but definitely tolerated.  )

its also why i was so happy about the Aus-APDT :001_cool: they BANNED shock-collars, and told their current members 
that if they intended to renew, they were no longer permitted to use shock. :thumbup: 
:001_tt1: i LOVED that - simple, clear, E-Z... _U use it, and we hear about it from anybody? *Yer out. :thumbdown: *_

i still think the UK-apdt *could* have continued accepting overseas-members by requiring that any applicant be from a region that ALREADY * HAS an examining-body (at least 2 members in good standing, qualified to examine the applicant for skills + knowledge base) or if the region does not, that the applicant be willing to ==> go to the UK for the exam, and sign a binding ethics statement that outlines the absolutes.

if the applicant from an UN-covered region were sufficiently experienced, they could be the FIRST potential-examiner for the UK-apdt in that region... and once they get at least *one* more legit experienced-applicant who passes the exam, they would have another evaluating-team for that new-region.

it becomes self-sustaining after awhile, and ALL of the members world-wide could be held to the same standards. :thumbsup: 
if there were complaints from clients, they can surely get some evidence from the client re the violations?

just a thought...  i am *still* hoping that APDT-uk goes global. 

cheers, 
--- terry


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