# Guenthers Voles



## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

Not suer where else to ask, but wondered if anybody had any Guenthers voles for sale, I used to keep them, but havent found any for ages.....if anybody knows can you pm me please, thank you. I live in the South East of England and can travel. Thank you


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

This was my last pair, male and female....they never bred which was very sad....so that is proof I have keept them before


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

Oh that is a pity, is there nobody hear at all that has any or knows of somebody who has them, I would really like to know, thank you.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Google exotic keepers forum and reptile forum UK, they have all sorts of exotic mammals for sale. Also try lnd exotics, and Viper and Vine, who sell exotic mammals, and will courier them in the UK too.


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

Hi, thanks for the help.....will have a look at those sites now


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## Crittery (May 2, 2011)

I think you'll have more luck nearer to Spring - the RFUK and EKF forums are worth checking later on as Wobbles has mentioned. Not many people seem to have them but there were a few about last year, you'd be so much better off finding a breeder if possible.

Just to warn you that the second name given above has prices that are very much above breeder rates - and the photos on their site are not of animals they own (I had to get them to take down a few of mine they'd used  ) and in some case are actually the wrong species.


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

Crittery said:


> I think you'll have more luck nearer to Spring - the RFUK and EKF forums are worth checking later on as Wobbles has mentioned. Not many people seem to have them but there were a few about last year, you'd be so much better off finding a breeder if possible.
> 
> Just to warn you that the second name given above has prices that are very much above breeder rates - and the photos on their site are not of animals they own (I had to get them to take down a few of mine they'd used  ) and in some case are actually the wrong species.


I wonder what people buy from Viper and Vine? It just worries me how they're breeding so many of these animals... they can't possibly be doing it responsibly, surely?


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## A R 3 (Apr 13, 2012)

elmthesofties said:


> I wonder what people buy from Viper and Vine? It just worries me how they're breeding so many of these animals... they can't possibly be doing it responsibly, surely?


I have to agree with you there - they had such a wide range of animals (some I didn't even know existed) it mush be for profit purposes only? Is it a big company? I have never heard of it before???? !!!!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Viper and vine is an exotics specialists based in Prestwich Manchester. Their animals are bred by themselves, their own supply of breeders and their own staff, one of which apparently has around 300 rodents of various types. They don't actually always have what is advertised, I phoned them when I was looking for some hamsters as it says they have "various in lots of colours", but actually they only had a few in at the time.

Lnd exotics used afaik to be Living World Exotics, a exotics specialist based in Nottinghamshire.


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## A R 3 (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks 
Do you think it's any good?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

A R 3 said:


> Thanks
> Do you think it's any good?


The guy I spoke to was lovely and helpful, despite not having in what I was after, he offered to ask around their breeders for me. Google them, and have a look at their small mammals page. They hav a courier so will deliver any of the animals they sell to you if your in the UK. I wouldn't have had any problems getting a hamster off them had they had the one I was after.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

_SPECIALIST SUPPLIER
EXOTIC ANIMALS & PETS
*WHOLESALE* RABBITS-POULTRY-GAMEBIRDS_
kinda says it all about them to me.

HAND - REARED MAMMALS
and if you look at the link above does nothing strike you as odd? chances are these poor babies have been wild caught or taken off their mothers Extremely young- why else would they all Need hand reared? 

thats not a place i'd discribe as reputable... most of the animals shouldn't be able to be kept as pets.

OP- best of luck in your search, but please look for a private breeder who is breeding quality... not quantity.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Isn't it just cos their not normally human friendly animals, so have been hand reared/hand tamed since as young as poss, to stand a chance of being fairly good pets? And all those animals can be bought on RFUK and exotic keepers forum. I don't agree with foxes and things as pets, could turn on you, should be wild IMO, but apparently some people do keep them, so each to their own.


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## elmthesofties (Aug 8, 2011)

Wobbles, I don't think that's the point. The person hand rearing them wasn't getting up every 2 hours to feed the animals thinking "This is going to make such a great pet! I'm doing this all out of kindness after mummy died unexpectedly.". They were probably thinking "Whoa... this thing is going to be worth so much more money than regular ol' untame animals! Taking this youngster away from it's mother when it was still very dependent on her will be totally worth it".

To me, the site just screams "WE'RE DOING THIS FOR A PROFIT". Just look at the layout. 'Add to cart'. What the...? Shouldn't that button say 'Click here to submit an application for this animal', where you're then lead to a questionnaire asking about the animal's future care? But it doesn't. If you're willing to sell exotics to any old person that clicks 'Add to cart', then you can't be responsibly breeding your animals. I'm sorry, but you can't.

EDIT: Ugh. I literally just read this through and realized how rude I was. I didn't try and be condescending, Wobbles.  Sorry!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I didn't realise it meant that. I thought it meant hand tamed as in been picked up and held from as early on as possible to get them used to it. I don't agree with keeping wild animals anyway, they should be wild. The 'proper' pets should be ok though.


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## halfeatenapple (Jan 2, 2013)

Er.... all pets where wild once Wobbles...


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Well yes that's true, but there's a big difference between having a rabbit running around the garden and having a wallaby running around the garden! Most people could house a rabbit or a guinea pig fairly easy, but imagine trying to keep a monkey or something! Wild animals aren't domesticated in the same way, IMO they should not be allowed to be kept. What if it escaped? There's people in the states been attacked by big cats and monkeys because some try to keep them as 'pets'. I don't see nothing wrong with them selling mice and gerbils etc, but they shouldn't be allowed to sell wild animals. Nowhere should.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> Well yes that's true, but there's a big difference between having a rabbit running around the garden and having a wallaby running around the garden! Most people could house a rabbit or a guinea pig fairly easy, but imagine trying to keep a monkey or something! Wild animals aren't domesticated in the same way, IMO they should not be allowed to be kept. What if it escaped? There's people in the states been attacked by big cats and monkeys because some try to keep them as 'pets'. *I don't see nothing wrong with them selling mice and gerbils etc, but they shouldn't be allowed to sell wild animals.* Nowhere should.


I see something wrong with their ethics though, and unless they have solid morals then IMO they shouldn't sell any living creature... 
I don't think that a person who will take an infant off its mother to hand rear (not just to hand tame) will be overly sympathetic to the mental well being of their animals; I just can't believe that could happen. So 'proper' pets or not, I just don't find them to be in any way an ethical breeder. (And ets said why pretty well).
But we've went a bit OT on the OP- sorry!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I think I'm mistaking hand reared for hand tamed. Much as I don't like 'pet' wild animals, Its not so bad if their just holding them from a young age to get used to people. That isn't the same as taking something off its mother way to early though, and I wouldn't of thought they'd be allowed to do that. Surely if their advertising doing that on their site, some animal welfare people would see it? Don't let shops get inspections and need licenses to sell livestock? At least they do here, I asked a lady why they no longer sold any and she said it was due to them not selling much and they didn't require a license the same way to only sell food and things. I don't see a problem with a proper decent pet shop selling mice or gerbils, but no way should you be able to walk in and buy a fox, meerkat, skunk etc.

But yes, this thread has gone off topic, sorry! OP I hope you manage to find your voles.


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## Crittery (May 2, 2011)

Wobbles said:


> but imagine trying to keep a monkey or something!


Completely O/T - but just to add you CANNOT keep a monkey on its own. It is exceptionally cruel. Wobbles, I know you were just making a throwaway comment on this one as you've said singular for rabbits and guinea pigs too, just amending as this forum is public.

elmthsofties - I agree, that site worries me. I enquired about some animals and they wouldn't answer basic questions on age etc or even whether they were wild caught or captive bred or not!

I don't want to derail this thread too much but will add that anyone interested in the keeping of exotic pets (the term favoured is sometimes companion animal; pet implies the wrong attitude for some of them) should investigate The British Exotic Mammal Association.

I've seen conditions for exotic animals in private hands that are better than Zoos, and who have been the ones offering the Zoos/Sanctuary etc advise on enrichment/diet/breeding and so forth - it is just that these keepers tend to be extremely secretive (due to the high risk of theft, personal danger etc) and so it is mostly just the bad keepers you hear about.

I fully agree with the comments to try breeders first if possible!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

elmthesofties said:


> EDIT: Ugh. I literally just read this through and realized how rude I was. I didn't try and be condescending, Wobbles.  Sorry!


Don't worry about it I know what you mean, I'm not great at getting things across on the forum right either! Usually comes out completely opposite to how it sounded in my head!



Crittery said:


> Completely O/T - but just to add you CANNOT keep a monkey on its own. It is exceptionally cruel. Wobbles, I know you were just making a throwaway comment on this one as you've said singular for rabbits and guinea pigs too, just amending as this forum is public.


Crittery, yes, it was just a figure of speech, most peeps here know anyway, and it just keeps the post shorter than putting in every tiny detail! I was only using a monkey as an example though, I didn't think you really could keep them in Britain.


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## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Don't worry about it I know what you mean, I'm not great at getting things across on the forum right either! Usually comes out completely opposite to how it sounded in my head!
> 
> Crittery, yes, it was just a figure of speech, *most peeps here know anyway*, and it just keeps the post shorter than putting in every tiny detail! I was only using a monkey as an example though, I didn't think you really could keep them in Britain.


I think that bit is the important bit Wobbles - you are forgetting that you don't need to be a member on here to see what is written so flyaway comments like that can be read by some eejgit that has no idea and takes that as being the gospel truth!! You never know what idiot is out there reading... Most of us who care about animals might know that, but look at the number of people who only see one comment on the internet and take that as permission to keep their animals in poor conditions because "their research said." We are all guilty of doing it but we do all need to be careful of those flyaway comments


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

wow, that went somewhere I wasnt expecting......very interesting though......thanks for all your replies.


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## A R 3 (Apr 13, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> peeps


Completley off topic O know (sorry) 
But does no-one else hate this word?

About Viper and Vine I'd never want to buy from them a wild animal without seeing the facilities first, and wild animals online from a breeder like this, even if it's a good one, i would at least want to know something about them before clicking 'add to cart'


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

ok, well I have looked through Viper and Vines' website and they look very professional...I dont like to make accusations unless i have seen for myself what places look like.....I dont mind buying from shops.....and I also dont mind rescuing.....depends on what you want from said animal.....I think its unfair to pidgin hole all shops under the same roof, just because they are large shops with lots of animals......I have seen some amazing shops on that scale and the animals have been well looked after.....and I have seen some hobby breeders and rescuers that would make your eyes water....people shouldnt judge on the bases of a few pictures


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2013)

droopal said:


> ok, well I have looked through Viper and Vines' website and they look very professional...I dont like to make accusations unless i have seen for myself what places look like.....I dont mind buying from shops.....and I also dont mind rescuing.....depends on what you want from said animal.....I think its unfair to pidgin hole all shops under the same roof, just because they are large shops with lots of animals......I have seen some amazing shops on that scale and the animals have been well looked after.....and I have seen some hobby breeders and rescuers that would make your eyes water....people shouldnt judge on the bases of a few pictures


It's not so much what the business shows to the public, it is what goes on behind the scenes 
[email protected] look like a very clean, well run business from the public's point of view, however I can assure you that is not the case behind the scenes. Picture shelves stacked with Tupperware containers filled with rodents and you're not far off 

Nothing about that website says to me that they care about the animals they are selling, quite the opposite in fact  Half the animals they breed shouldn't even be in the pet market IMO :incazzato:

If you don't mind supporting breeding practices such as this then that is your choice, however a few of us on here prefer to educate people about what they are supporting. 
Some people will choose to ignore because they don't care so long as they get what they want, some people decide that every animal needs a home so they shut out what happens behind the scenes while others have a think and then decide to support an ethical breeder rather than a shop that chooses profit over animal welfare.


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

I didnt say I supported them, I said I wont judge them till I see what they are like...ah now P @ H are a different matter altogether.....I aint going there...people are too quick to judge

As far as certain pets in the pet trade that is a personal opinion......I have gambians they are almost wild animals.....who is to tell me I cant keep them....again your making judgements based based on feelings.....not knowledge.....you cannot put everybody in there and blame them without seeing for yourself what people are like, that is wrong.....on every level

you really need to stop putting words into my mouth as well.....I can do that for myself...but thank you anyway


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2013)

droopal said:


> I didnt say I supported them, I said I wont judge them till I see what they are like...ah now P @ H are a different matter altogether.....I aint going there...people are too quick to judge


And as I said, what they show to the public isn't the issue.

Ok so [email protected] are bad, why is this one not in the same category?

Why not support one mill but choose the other one "might" be ok? Is it because they sell what you are after?

Why not just look for a good ethical breeder? Yes they might be harder to find, and you might have to wait longer/travel further but surely it is better to support an ethical breeder rather than a supermarket style breeder 

And sorry to disappoint you but no I'm not judging too quickly, I spent quite a while going over their website and looking into the company 

But you are jumping to conclusions because I haven't mentioned Gambions, your judgement about me making not having knowledge couldn't be further from the truth but thanks for making me laugh :lol:

As I said, if you wish to support them (if/when you do) then that is your prerogative, but I for one will never miss an opportunity to try to educate especially as others have already mention you won't be the only one reading this thread


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

sorry but if you think its ok to judge based entirely on a website your mistaken......again where does it say on the website that its unethical.....I have looked at it and cant see anything.....your putting personal feelings on something you dont know anything about.....its wrong.....and again until I see the place I refuse to judge.....


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2013)

droopal said:


> sorry but if you think its ok to judge based entirely on a website your mistaken......again where does it say on the website that its unethical.....I have looked at it and cant see anything.....your putting personal feelings on something you dont know anything about.....its wrong.....and again until I see the place I refuse to judge.....


I didn't say my judgement was based solely on the website , if you can't see what's wrong after looking at the site and reading others replies here then I can't help you.

I am not putting personal feelings on to something I know nothing about, but if it makes you feel better to think that then by all means go ahead 

All the info that you need is in this thread so I will back out, as there is no point in going in continuous circles.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Right I feel uncomfortable at this because I'm the one who bought up viper and vine. Op I only mentioned them because I thought they were a good company. When I read that their staff breeds their stock I thought that meant they weren't mass bred like [email protected], so were a reputable place to buy from, like a bigger version of a home bred/run local pet shop. If their actually not, and are no more than mass breeders, then I take back the recommendation to buy from there, and I wouldn't have suggested it if I'd known. If you want to know for sure, I'd phone them up and ask them where exactly their stock is from.


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## droopal (Apr 9, 2010)

Agree to disagree


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