# Male pups should be neutered just as much as females should be spayed



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Hi everyone,

In regards to accidental litters/mating is it not equally as important male dogs are neutered young as females? 

Today I was speaking with people about Penny, who many of you know due to a big operation at around 4 months is being spayed after her first season as opposed to before any season.

I was discussing worrying about going camping in September Ive booked as she has not yet had her first season. I was discussing whether to take her with me and use bitch spray and nappies or whether to leave her with family. Im very responsible and would never have her off lead etc in a season, its my decision to make and will probably leave her at home for the 3 days if she is in season.

However I was told all dogs will come and mount her forcefully and get her pregnant from 3 miles around as thats how far they can smell a bitch in season from. ALSO its will stress out all the dogs around who arent neutered!! 

However, what annoys me is why don't owners get their male dogs neutered as pups as well!!!!! Why is it just down to the owner of the female. I know many do but from that conversation and from reading some forums it seems the less of a responsibility to male owners than females. It should be equal. 

I feel frustrated by the conversation.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

This will be an entertaining thread!


----------



## Nicki85 (Oct 6, 2010)

I have an entire male and he certainly has never tried to forcefully mate or chase a bitch in season! In fact the most trouble I've had is an in-season bitch following us and then it being MY fault despite the fact that bitch was off lead and my entire male being on lead. (my fault that the owner could not recall his bitch and my fault that the bitch then came to find us again... )

Don't get me wrong, I can tell by his behaviour whether a dog is a bitch (in season or not) an entire male or a neutered male but him being entire certainly doesn't/ hasn't caused us any problems so far! 

I really think it is dependant on the dog  If he was a sex pest or showed signs of aggression to other entire males I would consider getting him neutered.


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Neutering a dog can have behavioural effects which may not be desirable, particularly with a nervous or anxious dog.

I kept Daisy in for three weeks for each of her two seasons. She has suffered no ill effects from her incarceration to house and garden, and in the grand scheme of things, it isn't much. Also, given that any mishap would put MY dog's health potentially at risk, it falls to me to be responsible. I don't expect anyone to have the same responsibility for my dog that I do.

That said, I do think it's unlikely you would be inundated with dogs from miles away, but if you are somewhere with other dogs around then you may find it a stressful and unpleasant experience for both you and Penny.


----------



## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

From an owner of both, I think that because it is so highly pushed that a female dog should be spayed due to seasons, as you have already mentioned it is widely encouraged to have them spayed before first season that female dog owners feel more pressure or a time scale to have them done.

But you are right, it is equally a male dog owners responsibility to have them done. I do not agree with confliction between owners because someone let their bitch in season to roam free and be a 'nuisance' to entire males. Yes I agree that bitches should be spayed (but there can be, like yours, reasons for postponing) but I also agree that if you do not want your dog to go crazy every time it gets a whiff of a female..surely common sense is not to blame the females owner..but to NEUTER YOUR DOG!!!


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

If an owner has a dog who is going to chase a female down from three miles away and forcefully try and mate her, and the owner does nothing to prevent this, then yes, that owner should get their dog neutered (and get a leash).

However, many owners (of both dogs and bitches) are perfectly able to prevent unwanted pregnancies and unwanted behavior without neutering or spaying. 

I choose to spay bitches because I have a totally irrational OTT fear of pyometra. Plus we live in coyote land and I don’t want to attract any extra attention from them. My current dog is neutered because that’s how he came to us, but my preference is to leave dogs intact barring medical issues (retained testicles) or extreme behavior issues directly correlated to testosterone.


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

I got Daisy spayed for pyrometra and because she had a very unpleasant phantom pregnancy. Avoiding her own pregnancy wasn't really a deciding factor because of the way we handle her seasons. I personally wouldn't routinely neuter a male dog unless there was a behavioural or health reason, or it was a rescue mandate.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Hahaha that made me chuckle 'sex pest'  i needed a laugh today, thanks for that 


Nicki85 said:


> I have an entire male and he certainly has never tried to forcefully mate or chase a bitch in season! In fact the most trouble I've had is an in-season bitch following us and then it being MY fault despite the fact that bitch was off lead and my entire male being on lead. (my fault that the owner could not recall his bitch and my fault that the bitch then came to find us again... )
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I can tell by his behaviour whether a dog is a bitch (in season or not) an entire male or a neutered male but him being entire certainly doesn't/ hasn't caused us any problems so far!
> 
> I really think it is dependant on the dog  If he was a sex pest or showed signs of aggression to other entire males I would consider getting him neutered.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Fluffster said:


> I got Daisy spayed for pyrometra and because she had a very unpleasant phantom pregnancy. Avoiding her own pregnancy wasn't really a deciding factor because of the way we handle her seasons. I personally wouldn't routinely neuter a male dog unless there was a behavioural or health reason, or it was a rescue mandate.


Yes I agree to females being spayed. Its just I also think males should be too  If For instance I did take penny camping and she was in season but was on a short lead and I had taken precautions like bitch spray and a dog showed interest which hadnt been neutered and the owner made a comment about I shouldnt have her out and about in season I would NOT be happy. Its ok for her to have her dog not done to show an interest in my dog but i cant walk mine on lead. So frustrating.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't think its either owners responsibility to have their dogs neutered early, in an ideal world both would be able to wait until their dog is fully mature before having it done (although most rescues do insist on it being done at 6 months). Many people choose not to have it done at all. I've had both entire and neutered males. Of the 3 I kept entire one was driven to distraction by the scent of bitches in season, he would track them for a long way and ended up in the road once but worse it would make him unsettled at home, off his food, pacing and throwing himself at doors. We tried chemical castration to see if that would stop him but it had no effect on this behaviour whatsoever - the vet said he was reacting to the smell in much the same way he did to prey and to dogs that smelt from skin or anal problems. Of course I kept him on the lead if I knew a bitch is season was about but how can the owners of male dogs know when someone is walking a bitch in season until they either come across them or their male dog has taken off looking for her? The other two entire males I had (both rotties) took no notice of bitches in season at all. I've had all 3 of my bitches spayed, 2 were done at 6 months and my last one by the rescue at 4 years, personally I couldn't deal with the hassle of male dogs following us or knowing that I could be inflicting much distress on male dogs in the neighbourhood but thats just my opinion


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think its either owners responsibility to have their dogs neutered early, in an ideal world both would be able to wait until their dog is fully mature before having it done (although most rescues do insist on it being done at 6 months). Many people choose not to have it done at all. I've had both entire and neutered males. Of the 3 I kept entire one was driven to distraction by the scent of bitches in season, he would track them for a long way and ended up in the road once but worse it would make him unsettled at home, off his food, pacing and throwing himself at doors. We tried chemical castration to see if that would stop him but it had no effect on this behaviour whatsoever - the vet said he was reacting to the smell in much the same way he did to prey and to dogs that smelt from skin or anal problems. Of course I kept him on the lead if I knew a bitch is season was about but how can the owners of male dogs know when someone is walking a bitch in season until they either come across them or their male dog has taken off looking for her? The other two entire males I had (both rotties) took no notice of bitches in season at all. I've had all 3 of my bitches spayed, 2 were done at 6 months and my last one by the rescue at 4 years, personally I couldn't deal with the hassle of male dogs following us or knowing that I could be inflicting much distress on male dogs in the neighbourhood but thats just my opinion


Just out of interest if you dont kind me asking what was the reason for not getting him neutered if he was so stressed by a bitch in season? Would he not have done well under GA? 
The only bit I dont agree with in your post is "could be inflicting much distress on male dogs in the neighbourhood". Because if people neutered their dogs they wouldnt be under stress of a female coming into season. However it is personal opinion. Penny will be done but unfortunately during her first season if a dog is near her and hasnt been neutered then it will be "distressed" but thats not my fault :/


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

ouesi said:


> If an owner has a dog who is going to chase a female down from three miles away and forcefully try and mate her, and the owner does nothing to prevent this, then yes, that owner should get their dog neutered (and get a leash).
> 
> However, many owners (of both dogs and bitches) are perfectly able to prevent unwanted pregnancies and unwanted behavior without neutering or spaying.
> 
> I choose to spay bitches because I have a totally irrational OTT fear of pyometra. Plus we live in coyote land and I don't want to attract any extra attention from them. My current dog is neutered because that's how he came to us, but my preference is to leave dogs intact barring medical issues (retained testicles) or extreme behavior issues directly correlated to testosterone.


Oh I know, Im terrified of mine getting pyometra, thats why all mine (aside from penny) have been spayed young). Sally wasnt spayed when we rescued her at about 3/4 years old but we spayed her as soon as we got her.


----------



## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

I don't have my 17 month old spayed. She will not be spayed this season mid season and likely not be spayed before the next.
She is a working stock golden, and behaviourally they can be closer to flatcoats which are very slow to mature. I want move time for her to mature and the sex organs control more than sex!

For me this is where the risks verses benefits came down. Around 2.

When in season she stays at home. We play with dummies for search and rescue and she is exercised with a sheep skin tied to the rnd of a lunge whip. She loves the chase and the erratic movement I can create with the whip. If I absolutely had to take her out then it would be very carefully planned to avoid anywhere a dog owner had a right to expect their male to be off lead...and avoiding all roads in case her trail lingered too long after we leave. So far a beach and a remote industrial park car park have done us ok when we have been travelling and required a stop for tolietting

I hate the Yellow dog campaign contains an in season bitch on their poster of uses. Like a human can see a ribbon of warning before the msle and smell and find said bitch!

There are dogs who try to mount her all year around, but equally there are dogs who try to mount my spayed bitch (again spayed after 2nd birthday) so some dogs just like to rut and there is little more I can do to make my girls unattractive to them.

Unfortunately I have known castrated males who seem to not know they are castrated and still want to go for some summer loving. They can apparently still do internal damage too should they get to a bitch so even if all males were castrated I still would limit my in season bitches walks.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I think the difficulty here is that you presume that neutered males will take no interest in your in season bitch, and indeed that entire males definitely will. 

It's doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Nowhere near that black and white. 

I've known some entire males who show near complete disinterest in an in season bitch and other entire males who were driven to distraction. 

I've known some neutered males who were beside themselves in the presence of an in season bitch (and not that close either) and other neutered males who couldn't give a flying fart.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> Yes I agree to females being spayed. Its just I also think males should be too  If For instance I did take penny camping and she was in season but was on a short lead and I had taken precautions like bitch spray and a dog showed interest which hadnt been neutered and the owner made a comment about I shouldnt have her out and about in season I would NOT be happy. Its ok for her to have her dog not done to show an interest in my dog but i cant walk mine on lead. So frustrating.


But it's not ok if that entire male is harassing your dog.

Neutering is a personal thing. There are pros and cons and it is up to the individual what risks they are willing to take.

I will always spay a bitch because one of my childhood dogs died of Pyometra...but with dogs I will only neuter if there is a medical reason to do so.

My entire male does not run 3 miles to force himself on any bitches (ironically we have had in season bitches flag him and try to shove their bums in his face tho), I can tell if an in season bitch is in the area but he does not stress about it.

Any medical procedure requiring a general anesthetic should not be treated as a 'one size fits all' kind of thing.


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

Not all male dogs are distressed by a bitch in season. 
Living with a bitch in season is hard, but for the vast majority of intact dogs, the random encounter with an in-season bitch is tolerable, and they’re easily trained to ignore it.

If you go to any dog show or competition, you’re likely to encounter plenty of intact dogs and bitches and they learn to ignore each other quite well. 

Not to mention plenty of neutered dogs are distracted by bitches in heat too.


----------



## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Castrated males may still get stressed over a bitch in season. I know plenty who are castrated but would still chase down a bitch in season and get very stressed. Mines entire and I plan to keep him that way.


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

When I took Daisy to the park a few days after her season ended, two neutered dogs persistently tried to mount her and would not leave her alone. My friend's neutered lab is one of the biggest humpers I have ever met. Interestingly on the park visit we met an entire dog who was disinterested.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

The other point is your bitch herself. It's not uncommon for in season bitches, due to hormone changes and everything else to hump anything and everything (the cat, the sofa, teddy bear, your neutered dog, another bitch). Again *depends on the dog*!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Doggiedelight said:


> Just out of interest if you dont kind me asking what was the reason for not getting him neutered if he was so stressed by a bitch in season? Would he not have done well under GA?
> The only bit I dont agree with in your post is "could be inflicting much distress on male dogs in the neighbourhood". Because if people neutered their dogs they wouldnt be under stress of a female coming into season. However it is personal opinion. Penny will be done but unfortunately during her first season if a dog is near her and hasnt been neutered then it will be "distressed" but thats not my fault :/


In my post I did say that we tried "chemical castration" - this was on the advice of our vet to see if neutering would have altered his behaviour.  He did have a heart murmur but not bad enough to prevent a general anaesthetic. We just didn't want to have him done if it wasn't necessary. We tried the injection 2 or 3 times before accepting that it made no difference to his behaviour as he was reacting to the smell of the bitch rather than his sex hormones. Whilst I accept that its not your fault if a dog is distressed by Penny being walked in season do have a think about how you would feel if a dog got run over because it picked up her scent and took off following her across roads. I know that would be its owner's responsibility but it would probably make you feel pretty bad too.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

"However, what annoys me is why don't owners get their male dogs neutered as pups as well!!!!!"

why will I not be getting my boy neutered as a pup? Simply; increased risk of...

Osteosarcoma
Curuciate ligament rupture
Hemangiosarcoma
lymphoma
Mast cell tumours
Hip dysplasia
hypothyroidism

Responsible owners prevent unwanted behaviours and unwanted litters, regardless of whether they choose to neuter or not. I for one will NOT be risking the long term health of my dog because some some people have issues with dogs being allowed to keep their balls!


----------



## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

My lass is entire and will stay that way unless something calls for it to be done.
From my experience, I have only had get serious once with a male showing to much interest in her when I was walking home with her.

I don't go through dog parks, I don't think it is fair as even castrated males can play up and be teased by the smell. Not everyone leashes their dogs round here either. I know most of the walkers and which dogs are fixed or not and even when I have stopped to chat with people, their entire dogs have shown no more interest then a good sniff of her backside.

Ultimately, early spay and neuter does stop litters - but it does nothing to educate dog owners which is SO much more effective and better for the actual dogs. Ovary sparing spay and Vasectomies should be considered for premature dogs to keep their hormones intact while they still grow and something I wish I knew about before I got Rossi fixed


----------



## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

lemmsy said:


> The other point is your bitch herself. It's not uncommon for in season bitches, due to hormone changes and everything else to hump anything and everything (the cat, the sofa, teddy bear, your neutered dog, another bitch). Again *depends on the dog*!


I have had two entire bitches before (one rescue came in season, so awaiting correct mid season time brought my young bitch in to season about a month early) 
They started giving each other the eye and meaningful stares before going behind the shed for some special time!!
Took it in turns to play Arthur to the others Martha!!


----------



## Get Bunny Box (Apr 17, 2015)

In my opinion, it's down to each individual, there is no right or wrong.


----------



## Get Bunny Box (Apr 17, 2015)

.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

kare said:


> I have had two entire bitches before (one rescue came in season, so awaiting correct mid season time brought my young bitch in to season about a month early)
> They started giving each other the eye and meaningful stares before going behind the shed for some special time!!
> Took it in turns to play Arthur to the others Martha!!


I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh but...:Joyful

Bet that was a "fun" couple of weeks for you!


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> The other point is your bitch herself. It's not uncommon for in season bitches, due to hormone changes and everything else to hump anything and everything (the cat, the sofa, teddy bear, your neutered dog, another bitch). Again *depends on the dog*!


Yes, Daisy humped Belle's face, which was interesting! Poor Belle just stood there and accepted it until we could drag her off. Legs were also not safe!


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I don't know that your girls will get raped by a forceful male - but I certainly think that she could be the cause of fights between entire dogs, and if one approaches her at the right time then it will be "Goodnight Vienna" as far as her morals are concerned.

I've have both dogs and bitches and tend to get all neutered at 6 months (exception was our dane - we had him done at 10 months. we'd have liked to leave t longer but he was so big and heavy and "humpy" that he was becoming a menace). Having been a member of this forum and read the debates I'm not sure that I would automatically get a male dog castrated the way I have in the past, for a number of reasons:

1 - there don't seem to be the health benefits attached to castration the way there are to spaying

2 - dogs nowadays tend to be kept under greater control than they were when I was a child, when the usual practice was to open the door on a morning, let the dog out, and let it back in and feed it when it came home at whatever time

3 - now, I know this sounds stupid, and I fully expect to be buried under an avalanche of contempt, but I think that dogs in general seem to be more aggressive towards each other than they used to be. I don't know whether this is due to poor socialisation, or to people buying dogs because of what they look like, rather than for a purpose (which meant that you got a dog that suited - no lapdogs expected to walk across the Pennines, and no working dogs kept indoors in a tiny kitchen 23 and a half hours a day), or because when I was a nipper most dogs were random mongrels anyway and therefore didn't run the risk of inbreeding, or what, but dogs definitely seem more aggressive. I have been educated somewhat on here, and now know that if a dog is castrated at a critical stage it can end up fear aggressive - and without knowing what you're doing you can trap your dog in that mode. It has also occurred to me (and I thought of this all by myself, which is why the air smells of burning rubber) that maybe - _maybe - _a castrated male dog gives off a confusing scent, and other males, particularly entire ones, aren't sure how to respond to it so are more likely to attack. This is my Personal Theory of Why Some Dogs Just Bite Others Apparently for No Good Reason.

For these reasons, if I ever get another male, I will leave him until I know he is fully mature and confident, and what is temperament is likely to be.

I do agree, though, that owners of (male) dogs have a responsibility to ensure that their pets don't go round impregnating every entire female in an umpteen mile radius. But when push comes to shove, if your bitch gets pregnant, YOU are the one with all the work, all the worry and a basket of puppies to home.

No-brainer to me - Gotta girl? Get 'er done!


----------



## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

I think what your not thinking about OP is that neutered or not it can and does still effect male dogs, in fact I know a few neutered male dogs who have gone nuts over smelling a bitch in season, it can also cause males to fight even if neutered. 

on the other hand my boy is intact because he is very nervous and castration would make him worse, luckily for me he isn't really bothered by bitches in season and certainly doesn't search them out. if i ever had a female dog again i would have her spayed when she is mature so around 2, because 1. I'm ridiculously worried about Pyometra, 2. it doesn't effect a female dog as much behaviourally as it seems to some males and 3. I don't plan to breed dogs so don't see the point of dealing with seasons or putting my dog through them.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I had my bitch spayed as I wouldn't risk pyometra. She was spayed 3 months after her season season at 18 months oldand I have no regrets! 

Bigby on the other hand, he won't be neutered unless for medical reasons. The smooth collie is a vulnerable breed so they like to keep different genetics open. Iam happy not to neuter him and I was never planning on going too.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Fluffster said:


> When I took Daisy to the park a few days after her season ended, two neutered dogs persistently tried to mount her and would not leave her alone. My friend's neutered lab is one of the biggest humpers I have ever met. Interestingly on the park visit we met an entire dog who was disinterested.


Our neutered staffie was a sex fiend (he was 3 and a half when I finally persuaded Mr LB to let him lose his family jewels. He stopped raping my shoulder, our cushions, and any small child or large teddy bears, but he could still do the business with a bitch in heat if she was standing in front of him giving him the glad eye, and actually tied with a beagle bitch on heat to the great consternation of her owner.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nicki85 said:


> I have an entire male and he certainly has never tried to forcefully mate or chase a bitch in season! In fact the most trouble I've had is an in-season bitch following us and then it being MY fault despite the fact that bitch was off lead and my entire male being on lead. (my fault that the owner could not recall his bitch and my fault that the bitch then came to find us again... )
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I can tell by his behaviour whether a dog is a bitch (in season or not) an entire male or a neutered male but him being entire certainly doesn't/ hasn't caused us any problems so far!
> 
> I really think it is dependant on the dog  If he was a sex pest or showed signs of aggression to other entire males I would consider getting him neutered.


Pretty much this for us too. The one dog I had who was a sex pest was neutered at maturity. And he was still a sod for the bitches in season after it. Wolf was never interested in bitches in season at all. Nor was Rupert although he was neutered for other reasons. Spencer is interested but certainly not to the point of running off in search of them or forcing himself on them. When we have met in season bitches, always with them approaching us rather than the other way round, he's been extremely interested but has been able to walk away from them with me without a fuss even though they're practically throwing themselves at him. I can tell when there's a bitch in season in the area but I wouldn't say he was distressed by them, just interested.

I won't neuter a male without good reason, studies seem to show there are far more cons than pros to neutering a male whereas the reverse seems to be true for bitches. Even a bitch though I'd lean towards waiting for maturity to spay.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I train a young kelpie bitch who just finished her first season. She was flirting with everyone. Flagging her tail (curled up like a malamute), humping, rubbing up against them all, bum in their faces. She lives with three bitches and one male.

She was hilarious to watch, but then her owners are really really good at management and redirecting her or ensuring that the others got space if she got too annoying.

Bluddy hormones.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

kare said:


> I have had two entire bitches before (one rescue came in season, so awaiting correct mid season time brought my young bitch in to season about a month early)
> They started giving each other the eye and meaningful stares before going behind the shed for some special time!!
> Took it in turns to play Arthur to the others Martha!!


Laughing my socks off at this. (Lucky they fancied each other, or you might have had a fight on your hands)


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lemmsy said:


> I train a young kelpie bitch who just finished her first season. She was flirting with everyone. Flagging her tail (curled up like a malamute), humping, rubbing up against them all, bum in their faces. She lives with three bitches and one male.
> 
> She was hilarious to watch, but then her owners are really really good at management and redirecting her or ensuring that the others got space if she got too annoying.
> 
> Bluddy hormones.


What a floozie!


----------



## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

All the girls I have had had are spayed because of the risk of Pyo Now Scooby who has passed away from old age had his jewels taken off If I ever get another male dog I will do the same because I will never forget watching my Ben my Goldie get testicular cancer and even after the op it had gone into his lungs I don't want to ever see a dog end his days in so much stress as he did


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

shirleystarr said:


> All the girls I have had had are spayed because of the risk of Pyo Now Scooby who has passed away from old age had his jewels taken off If I ever get another male dog I will do the same because I will never forget watching my Ben my Goldie get testicular cancer and even after the op it had gone into his lungs I don't want to ever see a dog end his days in so much stress as he did


I've "liked" this because I wanted to acknowledge your post and we no longer have a "thank you" button. How very sad - your poor dog, and poor you too, to be so helpless in the face of his suffering.

*hugs*


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I do wonder about people I really do! 

All my dogs have been entire and will remain entire for health reasons, none of them have forcefully tried to mate anything!! If you think it is only entire males who will be interested in or attempt to mount your in season bitch you are sadly mistaken! If you think only entire males react to a bitch in season again you are sadly mistaken!

My bitch was spayed before two years of age which for me was too young, because health concerns of spaying my breed young out weigh pyo, she wasn't walked during her season, she also lived in the same house with an entire male ( so much closer than 3 miles) and he wasn't distressed nor did he try and force himself on her!

What annoys me is peoples ignorance about spaying and neutering! And in all my years of owning entire males they haven't impregnated anything, even when in the same house as an in season bitch!

Tut imagine me being so selfish!!!!!


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Pretty much agree with Lostbear's post totally 

Our family pets were usually neutered early and it never caused any issues. I think it was generally done that way because mum followed the advice of the vets and it was mostly to avoid unwanted litters and guard against pyometra.

I think I would probably always neuter cats early, but probably wait until dogs were mature because of all the things I have learned on this forum.

That way, I think if a male dog proved to be perfectly happy and easy to manage I could probably leave it.

However, as an entire bitch myself  I wouldn't inflict seasons on anyone! I would never have any plans to breed my bitch so there would be no reason for keeping her entire and the health benefits would probably be the deciding factor anyway. IME I have very little control over other people and their dogs' behaviour, so I wouldn't want to trust my bitch's health or wellbeing to anyone else and I couldn't be doing with all the hassle either TBH.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Not a chance in hell I would neuter my dogs (unless a serious medical condition forced otherwise), and certainly never as a young pup.

I'd rather manage my dogs to avoid unwanted pregnancies rather than chop bits of them off.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Having been involved in rescue abroad, I like to go by the adage, spay the bitch but leave the male alone unless there are problems that can really be helped by neutering.
In fact, there is a strong movement in Spain calling for a 'heal, spay, recuperate and release' method of helping the thousands of abandoned bitches that the rescues come into contact with, because you simply can't find homes for them all, but they still deserve a chance at life. And I agree with that.

Plus, having had one dear little girl die of closed pyometra and another only just survive the experience, I also have a real fear of the disease. However, I would not, by choice, get a bitch spayed until she had had at least one season, as I think it is important to let her grow as fully and as healthily as she can first.

But I don't agree with neutering male dogs 'just because you can'. Only one of our dogs was neutered, and that was because the vet convinced my OH that the dog's strong sex drive and his aggression towards men would be 'cured' once the op had been carried out.
The dog never lost his need to hump and his aggression was 'cured' by us being kind to him. He was actually a sweet dog who just wanted a bit of love, not his bits cut off....

Our other male dogs were not neutered, although two of them were immediately castrated by a British rescue when they arrived with them before going on to their forever home. We were sad about this, as neither had showed sexual aggression or a particularly high sex drive whatsoever, but realised that is what Brit rescues do....

We could have lost our Saluki, because we refused to get him castrated as per the rescue's agreement. But he had needed an operation on his foot when a puppy and had reacted very badly to the anesthetic, and there was no way we were going to put him at risk again. We had to get a letter from our vet to confirm this (and the vet's agreement with our decision), but the rescue was not happy...
(I realise that their strict rules were to stop any back door breeding of salukis, but the rules didn't allow for health exceptions, which I think was wrong).


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> In my post I did say that we tried "chemical castration" - this was on the advice of our vet to see if neutering would have altered his behaviour. He did have a heart murmur but not bad enough to prevent a general anaesthetic. We just didn't want to have him done if it wasn't necessary. We tried the injection 2 or 3 times before accepting that it made no difference to his behaviour as he was reacting to the smell of the bitch rather than his sex hormones. Whilst I accept that its not your fault if a dog is distressed by Penny being walked in season do have a think about how you would feel if a dog got run over because it picked up her scent and took off following her across roads. I know that would be its owner's responsibility but it would probably make you feel pretty bad too.


Im sorry I wasnt totally sure what chemical castration was, i just googled it.

As for the last bit of your post, I think its an awful thing to insinuate that if a dog gets run ovet trying to get to penny in her season that it should make me feel bad or is partly my fault (if thats not what you meant, as I know that wasnt your exact words than I apologise in advance) i mean i would feel bad at any animal being hurt because thats my nature but it would in no way be my fault. But the fact is penny will have just 1 season and in reality based on what your saying a dog could smell her and run across a road to get to her whether im walking her at home or in the park. I would castrate my dog to avoid him going after a female just as much as i would spay a female to avoid cancer. Castrating may not help just as spaying just stop a female getting cancer in other areas but i would do it. Personal choice but im not to blame for a non castrated male being in distress over penny being in season :/


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I have only ever owned entire dogs and bitches and my current two (both females) are also entire and I have no plans to change that.

I have never had an issue with preventing pregnancies. I also walk my two as normal, and don't lock them away when in season. 

While I do understand that dogs are doing what comes natural to them, I do think owners still need to have a level of control over there own animals.

I have had male dogs approach my two when we have been playing catch in a field (my two were not in season) and the owner said I should expect male dogs to approach my two and they are females. I'm sorry but because the dogs are different sexes should not be used an excuse for poor recall or control.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> Im sorry I wasnt totally sure what chemical castration was, i just googled it.
> 
> As for the last bit of your post, I think its an awful thing to insinuate that if a dog gets run ovet trying to get to penny in her season that it should make me feel bad or is partly my fault (if thats not what you meant, as I know that wasnt your exact words than I apologise in advance) i mean i would feel bad at any animal being hurt because thats my nature but it would in no way be my fault. But the fact is penny will have just 1 season and in reality based on what your saying a dog could smell her and run across a road to get to her whether im walking her at home or in the park. I would castrate my dog to avoid him going after a female just as much as i would spay a female to avoid cancer. Castrating may not help just as spaying just stop a female getting cancer in other areas but i would do it. Personal choice but im not to blame for a non castrated male being in distress over penny being in season :/


Again NOT just entire males react to an in season bitch!!!!!


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Meezey said:


> Again NOT just entire males react to an in season bitch!!!!!


Thank you!!!

Neutered males, in tact bitches, spayed bitches too.

And... the in season bitch herself.

Some dogs (the species not the gender, nor entire/neutered status) respond to the stimulus of an in season bitch and some do not give a flying fart.

There is a chance that if you walk her in a public place whilst she is in season that other dogs will take interest. They may be anxious and insistent and that also may stress Penny out too.
I know a bitch, who when she goes into season, becomes rather groggy and doesn't want to exercise as much. She sometimes gets grumpy with resident dogs too (she's usually a happy go lucky giddy sort of dog).

It might be mutually beneficial for both (and that includes your dog) to walk at more antisocial hours or withhold walks during her season, according to your dog and how she is behaving, where you are and all the circumstances.


----------



## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

If you do walk Penny when she is in season though you will probably have to accept that males (castrated and non castrated alike) will come over and may cause problems trying to get to Penny - however right or wrong it is, it most likely will happen. I`d defenitly be sticking to areas where dogs are less likely to be offlead and I wouldn`t be letting my girl off lead either as a lot of bitches will run up to males too!


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Again NOT just entire males react to an in season bitch!!!!!


Bates chatters his teeth and drools if I let him get too friendly with in-season bitches. And he was neutered at 4 months (not by us). 
He also lets me know when women are at that time of the month - he doesn't react to me, but every other woman he does. I have to watch him like a hawk because he'll start nudging and licking and the nice lady is like "oh he's so sweet and friendly" and I'm like "yeah, he just thinks your period smells delightful".
He's a total embarrassment really, I don't know why I keep him around....

As for dogs running off in the road, IME, dogs of both sexes are far more likely to run off after prey or just no recall and get hit by a car, than suffer the same fate from being intact and getting a whiff of a female in heat.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I really do struggle in threads like these! I do wonder where all these marauding sex mad male dogs live? Between us OH and I have had near 20 entire male dogs in our lives strangely none have broke out ran away to find a bitch 3 miles away and force themselves on them! I also find it worrying in this day and age people think it's perfectly acceptable to spay and neuter so young just for birth control...


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Pretty much agree with Lostbear's post totally
> 
> Our family pets were usually neutered early and it never caused any issues. I think it was generally done that way because mum followed the advice of the vets and it was mostly to avoid unwanted litters and guard against pyometra.
> 
> ...


Yep - I'd agree I'd still get my girls spayed after their first season.

Personally I've never thought of myself as an entire bitch . . . a complete and utter bitch, perhaps


----------



## caju (Jan 3, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I really do struggle in threads like these! I do wonder where all these marauding sex mad male dogs live? Between us OH and I have had near 20 entire male dogs in our lives strangely none have broke out ran away to find a bitch 3 miles away and force themselves on them! I also find it worrying in this day and age people think it's perfectly acceptable to spay and neuter so young just for birth control...


It's strange isn't it? I live in a country full of strays, and regularly encounter them on walks (with my "non-neutered" dog on-leash). Many times we have had encounters with stray bitches in heat. He doesn't react any differently to them than he does other dogs.

Wait... I've just realised, maybe he's gay


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Bates chatters his teeth and drools if I let him get too friendly with in-season bitches. And he was neutered at 4 months (not by us).
> He also lets me know when women are at that time of the month - he doesn't react to me, but every other woman he does. I have to watch him like a hawk because he'll start nudging and licking and the nice lady is like "oh he's so sweet and friendly" and I'm like *"yeah, he just thinks your period smells delightful".*
> He's a total embarrassment really, I don't know why I keep him around....
> 
> As for dogs running off in the road, IME, dogs of both sexes are far more likely to run off after prey or just no recall and get hit by a car, than suffer the same fate from being intact and getting a whiff of a female in heat.


How to win friends and influence people LOL


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

caju said:


> It's strange isn't it? I live in a country full of strays, and regularly encounter them on walks (with my "non-neutered" dog on-leash). Many times we have had encounters with stray bitches in heat. He doesn't react any differently to them than he does other dogs.
> 
> Wait... I've just realised, maybe he's gay


Well . . . if that's him in your avatar, he IS rather fabulous . . . . . .


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Bates chatters his teeth and drools if I let him get too friendly with in-season bitches. And he was neutered at 4 months (not by us).
> *He also lets me know when women are at that time of the month - he doesn't react to me, but every other woman he does. I have to watch him like a hawk because he'll start nudging and licking and the nice lady is like "oh he's so sweet and friendly" and I'm like "yeah, he just thinks your period smells delightful".
> He's a total embarrassment really, I don't know why I keep him around....*
> 
> As for dogs running off in the road, IME, dogs of both sexes are far more likely to run off after prey or just no recall and get hit by a car, than suffer the same fate from being intact and getting a whiff of a female in heat.


That's another thing that Bates and Thai have in common lol
Although with Thai he only reacts to me, it's not an issue because I just redirect but it made me laugh that Bates does the same.


----------



## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Doggiedelight said:


> Im sorry I wasnt totally sure what chemical castration was, i just googled it.
> 
> As for the last bit of your post, I think its an awful thing to insinuate that if a dog gets run ovet trying to get to penny in her season that it should make me feel bad or is partly my fault (if thats not what you meant, as I know that wasnt your exact words than I apologise in advance) i mean i would feel bad at any animal being hurt because thats my nature but it would in no way be my fault. But the fact is penny will have just 1 season and in reality based on what your saying a dog could smell her and run across a road to get to her whether im walking her at home or in the park. I would castrate my dog to avoid him going after a female just as much as i would spay a female to avoid cancer. Castrating may not help just as spaying just stop a female getting cancer in other areas but i would do it. Personal choice but im not to blame for a non castrated male being in distress over penny being in season :/


As others have said it isn't only entire males who can become distracted around bitches in season.

No I don't think you are responsible for other dogs being bothered by your dog being in season, but if it was me I'd want to minimise potential stress to both my dog and others around. I wouldn't walk in busy places at busy times where there's likely to be loose dogs. I wouldn't take my in season bitch camping either - if it's her first season you don't know how she'll deal with her season, there may well be random dogs running up to her stressing her out and it really isn't difficult for a dog (intact or otherwise) sleeping in the outer area of a tent to wriggle under the fly sheet and come over to your tent to scratch at it, pee on it, whine and howl at penny and you.......


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Well, at one point we had 4 unneutered perverts, and the worst that ever happened was one of them humped a fluffy cushion. Fortunately there were no pups from the mating.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Oddly only issue we have had is Cian being harrased by an off lead in season bitch while he was on lead...


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

caju said:


> It's strange isn't it? I live in a country full of strays, and regularly encounter them on walks (with my "non-neutered" dog on-leash). Many times we have had encounters with stray bitches in heat. He doesn't react any differently to them than he does other dogs.
> 
> Wait... I've just realised, maybe he's gay


The reality is that there are not high numbers of marauding randy dogs everywhere 

But, I'm grateful that I live in a country where it's NOT the norm for strays to be running the streets, and especially bitches in heat. Whilst it may be less than desirable for healthy, entire dogs to be spayed as a matter of course, or too young, it's preferable to some of the alternatives IMO.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

This is what a distressed maurding sex starved entire male looks like living with an in season bitch she was on day 15 or so when this was taken!


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> This is what a distressed maurding sex starved entire male looks like living with an in season bitch she was on day 15 or so when this was taken!
> View attachment 239216


oooh - put em away!


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> That's another thing that Bates and Thai have in common lol
> Although with Thai he only reacts to me, it's not an issue because I just redirect but it made me laugh that Bates does the same.


Why does that not surprise me LOL 
Gross boy is what I call him, well, that and many other things....


----------



## Westie Mum (Feb 5, 2015)

The only contact my neutered boy has ever had with a bitch in-season, he mounted her and tied within 20 seconds 

Obviously it didn't result in a pregnancy, but even neutering doesn't guarantee to stop a dog wanting to have a go ........


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I completely understand why people neuter for genuine health reasons. Personally I would choose to spay a bitch because from the research I've done it seems that the benefits (no pyo) outweigh the risks. However I would wait until maturity to reduce those risks.
With boys it seems that the health risks (as mentioned in my previous post) far outweigh any potential benefits. These risks appear to be higher the earlier the dog is neutered. Therefore I intend to wait as long as possible - if I see no good reason to neuter then I won't, if I do then I will at least wait until maturity to minimise the risks.

I also understand why people neuter for genuine behaviour reasons, with agreement / recommendation from a qualified behaviourist. 

Putting a pup through potentially harmful, permanent surgery 'just in case' is irresponsible imo.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Sarahliz100 said:


> As others have said it isn't only entire males who can become distracted around bitches in season.
> 
> No I don't think you are responsible for other dogs being bothered by your dog being in season, but if it was me I'd want to minimise potential stress to both my dog and others around. I wouldn't walk in busy places at busy times where there's likely to be loose dogs. I wouldn't take my in season bitch camping either - if it's her first season you don't know how she'll deal with her season, there may well be random dogs running up to her stressing her out and it really isn't difficult for a dog (intact or otherwise) sleeping in the outer area of a tent to wriggle under the fly sheet and come over to your tent to scratch at it, pee on it, whine and howl at penny and you.......


if a dog came up to my tent and did that I would be wondering where the owner was who let it run off free like that. I certainly dont let my dogs off lead at campsites.


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> if a dog came up to my tent and did that I would be wondering where the owner was who let it run off free like that. I certainly dont let my dogs off lead at campsites.


they'd be 3miles away


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

In Hungary male dogs are rarely neutered and most vets don't advise spaying bitches until they've had at least two seasons. I had the only two girls in the village, the other 18 being intact males. When they had their first season the only dog that "came a wooing" was the oldest most decrepit male in the village. The poor old chap was so arthritic he could barely hobble let alone do anything else, apart from howling every time he saw my girls! I often wonder, being the village elder whether he was trying to claim his "droit de seigneur"? By the time mine had their second season he'd died of old age and as none of the other male dogs seemed interested, my girls virginity remained intact!


----------



## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Doggiedelight said:


> if a dog came up to my tent and did that I would be wondering where the owner was who let it run off free like that. I certainly dont let my dogs off lead at campsites.


Neither do I but every time I've been camping I've seen offlead dogs wondering around the camping field


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

lostbear said:


> It has also occurred to me (and I thought of this all by myself, which is why the air smells of burning rubber) that maybe - _maybe - _a castrated male dog gives off a confusing scent, and other males, particularly entire ones, aren't sure how to respond to it so are more likely to attack. This is my Personal Theory of Why Some Dogs Just Bite Others Apparently for No Good Reason.


I've actually found it tends to be the opposite way round. It's the neutered males who often have issues with the entire ones rather than the other way round. I know a lot of others have had the same experience too. I've wondered whether perhaps it's the entire male giving off the confusing or strange scent since they're far more uncommon, especially in so called responsible owner circles.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I really do struggle in threads like these! I do wonder where all these marauding sex mad male dogs live? Between us OH and I have had near 20 entire male dogs in our lives strangely none have broke out ran away to find a bitch 3 miles away and force themselves on them! I also find it worrying in this day and age people think it's perfectly acceptable to spay and neuter so young just for birth control...


I often find myself wondering the same thing. Most of the marauding sex mad male dogs I've known have actually been neutered! I can only think of one entire one off the top of my head and his taste wasn't limited to in season bitches. Or even just bitches for that matter. He was a bit of a nightmare.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I would never neuter a dog who is not yet fully mature whther it's a bitch or a male. If I wasn't planning to breed my bitch would be spayed at 12 months or after her first heat. To me the benefits outweigh the risks for the bitch, including that I wouldn't have to be stressed on walks every 6-8 months. My male is not spayed because I have no reason for it - he does not get affected by bitches in heat that live in our building, he has no behavioural problems and I have no problem with him on walks. To me, male neutering has less benefits than possible risks.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Doggiedelight said:


> Yes I agree to females being spayed. Its just I also think males should be too  If For instance I did take penny camping and she was in season but was on a short lead and I had taken precautions like bitch spray and a dog showed interest which hadnt been neutered and the owner made a comment about I shouldnt have her out and about in season I would NOT be happy. Its ok for her to have her dog not done to show an interest in my dog but i cant walk mine on lead. So frustrating.


I am surprised no one has already said this but I think if you took an in season bitch to a camp site you would be totally out of order. It could be a nightmare for all the other dog owners, not just entire males but castrated males and other bitches. Just the smell of her and anywhere she had peed could be cause to ruin other dog owners holiday.



Meezey said:


> I really do struggle in threads like these! I do wonder where all these marauding sex mad male dogs live? Between us OH and I have had near 20 entire male dogs in our lives strangely none have broke out ran away to find a bitch 3 miles away and force themselves on them! I also find it worrying in this day and age people think it's perfectly acceptable to spay and neuter so young just for birth control...


You must have led a very sheltered life. How do you think all the accidental matings happen. There is often the local dog that roams the area and looks for bitches. Thank goodness the one that lived 3 miles away from us is dead, it was certainly a worry when I had a bitch in season. There was lots of his progeny around over the 10 or so years he managed his 5 mile radius. There seems to be another one on the go but as far as I know he stays within a mile or two of home. I think it must be less common that it was but latch key dogs used to be the norm and they would get into gardens and get to in season bitches or the bitches would escape and be mated by several dogs. It only needs one irresponsible owner who lets their entire dog roam to make owning an entire bitch rather a nightmare.

I am very pro spaying bitches. I was brought up to spay after the first season but have had one done at 6 months and seen many more that have been with no ill effects so I am fairly ambivalent over it with small breeds at least. I do not like seeing the leggy cringy male dogs that have been castrated at 6 months, far better to leave till they are mature by which time you know if they need to be done so that they can live more happily in the environment they are kept or are perfectly ok to carry on entire.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Neutering at a young age is encouraged in Bitches because if performed before the first season, mammary cancer is virtually eliminated. The problem with this though is that it can cause so many other problems that I think its just dreadful advice full stop. Its far better to wait until the dog is mature. Yes the risk of cancer increases but since mammary tumour growth rates are accelerated by the presence of hormones in an unneutered bitch then growth should be slower and more easily managed if they crop up in a neutered bitch. 

Pyo is a very nasty disease that can come from nowhere and kill in a couple of days. I think we all remember one of the regular members here suffering a loss either last year or earlier this year which was very sad and unexpected. Sometimes it difficult to even spot the symptoms until its too late so in my opinion, neutering has to be very seriously considered for a Bitch.

We had two males at one time, Chino and Benson. Benson was neutered because he had a medical condition that warranted the removal of his jewels. Chino was never neutered. Of the two dogs, Chino was never the nuisance.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> You must have led a very sheltered life. How do you think all the accidental matings happen.


This is not the 1940's anymore.


----------



## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

SixStar said:


> Not a chance in hell I would neuter my dogs (unless a serious medical condition forced otherwise), and certainly never as a young pup.
> 
> I'd rather manage my dogs to avoid unwanted pregnancies rather than chop bits of them off.


This in a nutshell, Harvey is entire and couldn't care less about in season bitches nor tried to rape anything!


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> This is not the 1940's anymore.


Did not realise you were that old - I certainly am not. I am talking about dogs that roam in current times oddly enough. And the constant puppies for sale from accidental matings, to say nothing of the poor people that dare to come on here and admit to an accidental mating. How the hell do you think they all come about!
Just because you look after your dogs and live in a perfect bubble does not mean that there are not a lot of dogs running around loose and a lot of accidental matings. These of course are vastly reduced because even the most irresponsible owner will often take their vet's advice and get their dog or bitch neutered young whereas even 30 years ago it was not so common.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Gemmaa said:


> Well, at one point we had 4 unneutered perverts, and the worst that ever happened was one of them humped a fluffy cushion. Fortunately there were no pups from the mating.


Shame - you missed a chance to profit from selling a "stunning litter of rare and much-sought-after bullchintzons - gorgeous little bundles of stuffed fluff, many glorious colours, and combining the best of both - er, species(?)"


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Meezey said:


> This is what a distressed maurding sex starved entire male looks like living with an in season bitch she was on day 15 or so when this was taken!
> View attachment 239216


Obviously exhausted bliss brought about by erotic excess - I bet he has a cigarette in the paw off-camera!


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Ultimately it's about dog owners being responsible for their dogs - and not all are.

I do think it's unfair to walk an inseason Bitch in a high traffic dog walking area, it can put other dog owners on a back foot with unexpected behaviours from their dogs ( after all when are we expected to 'proof' our dogs behaviours against an in-season bitch)
I think if your entire male or female is likely to wonder and you would have difficulty keeping them under control then you should neuter (the real problem is probably not the majority of forum members, but the owners who really have no clue)

Personally I will always neuter - it's just so ingrained in my upbringing to do so - Girls probably after 1st season (mainly because I would panic about them being in season), Boys once I feel they are mature. (Ludo has to be neutered as part of the adoption contract, however it can be done at the time we feel best and being a small breed ideally before he is 2)

Zipper neutered at 10 months only ever tried to hump 2 bitches, both were in season, both were off lead in a high traffic dog walking area, one was receptive (luckily Zipper didn't have a clue and tried her head) the other was walking with a neutered male companion who started a fight with Zipper when he approached the dogs (both were off lead running in a field some distance from their owners)
Zipper however was consistent in trying to hump entire males and menstruating women :Shamefullyembarrased

I'm am very surprised that you would take Penny camping in season though (hopefully you won't have to worry) - tents are not very secure, dogs slip leads, potentially lots of dogs in pretty close proximity and if any other dogs (male, female, entire or neutered) react to her smell it could make a difficult holiday for everyone (your family and the other dogs families) plus you don't know how she will cope with being in season and then you're adding the stress of being somewhere unknown.


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Doggiedelight said:


> if a dog came up to my tent and did that I would be wondering where the owner was who let it run off free like that. I certainly dont let my dogs off lead at campsites.


Zipper slipped put our tent once (was being moved form crate inside to outside tie out post) and stole someone sausages  My son was close behind him trying to catch him but with the jackpot of sausages he ran amok through the campsite for a couple of minutes before we managed to catch him


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Just been reading through all the replies. Its nice to see opinions without any nastiness. Thats how forums should be. 

I did say in my first initial post that "...I will probably leave her with family for the 3 days if she is in season..." That is still my thought but I do need to see how things pan out. Im lucky I have the option and wont have to cancel the holiday.

Yes I am aware that entire dogs can be interested in a bitch in season as well. To answer someones point. 

I do stand by my opinion in that male dogs should be neutered, I respect others think different. If I had a male dog now I would neuter it, just like I have in the past with rescues and rehoming. It IS personal choice and I think its great this thread hasnt turned into a slanging match. One thing i wont stand for though, which is what happened and made me want to create this thread, Is to feel like accidental matings or distress on the male are just down to the unspayed females owners.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Fleur said:


> Zipper slipped put our tent once (was being moved form crate inside to outside tie out post) and stole someone sausages  My son was close behind him trying to catch him but with the jackpot of sausages he ran amok through the campsite for a couple of minutes before we managed to catch him


Did he bring you any sausages back? Hehe


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

This is probably going to sound incredibly selfish, but why should I put my male dogs under the risk of an unnecessary operation - and an operation that increases certain health risks at that - just so that owners of entire bitches can walk them in peace when they're in season?

I have two entire dogs and two entire bitches, and if I can (and do) manage to keep them separated and happy when the girls are in season, then why should my entire dogs be a problem for anyone else?


----------



## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Colette said:


> "However, what annoys me is why don't owners get their male dogs neutered as pups as well!!!!!"
> 
> why will I not be getting my boy neutered as a pup? Simply; increased risk of...
> 
> ...


My uneutered boy ruptured both cruciates. My other then uneutered boy was diagnosed with hip dysplasia before he was two. The HD may be linked to testosterone closing the growth plates. Neutered dogs, gelded horses may grow taller than full siblings who are castrated.

The studies do come out fairly even in respect of the good and the bad.



Meezey said:


> I really do struggle in threads like these! I do wonder where all these marauding sex mad male dogs live? Between us OH and I have had near 20 entire male dogs in our lives strangely none have broke out ran away to find a bitch 3 miles away and force themselves on them! I also find it worrying in this day and age people think it's perfectly acceptable to spay and neuter so young just for birth control...


I'm forever hearing this dog will run 3 miles away and get run over because he's not neutered thing. Urban myth in this day and age, given that people don't let dogs wander loose these days. Maybe it used to happen when dogs were allowed to roam but even thirty years ago, I don't remember this happening. 

My original two weren't neutered and never had issues. Brig couldn't care less if there are in season bitches running round, he's disinterested. The only time he's jumped the six foot fence was to go and play with next door's tortoise.


----------



## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

Spellweaver said:


> This is probably going to sound incredibly selfish, but why should I put my male dogs under the risk of an unnecessary operation - and an operation that increases certain health risks at that - just so that owners of entire bitches can walk them in peace when they're in season?
> 
> I have two entire dogs and two entire bitches, and if I can (and do) manage to keep them separated and happy when the girls are in season, then why should my entire dogs be a problem for anyone else?


Very true.
I choose to keep my bitch entire for this time, my choice should not impact you any more than necessary. 
If you lived near me and he was distressed then unfortunately there is little I can do.
But I have to keep mine home for a few weeks twice a year is not comparable to asking the dog owner to have to take measures every damn day just on the off chance I or someone else chooses to not keep a in season bitch home...especially as not even neutering can make their dog not react to mine in many cases.
If I did have to walk an entire bitch then I would and have thought every second of where I am and who maybe there later, making sure I drive there, try to walk in the rain if any due, or on beaches I know her wee mails will be washed soon and park in a quiet carpark should the worst happen and her trail be followed after I have left.
There is no drive in the universe like the drive to reproduce, I don't expect anyone to control a dog with the promise of a biscuit or meat treat overvtheir drive to make puppies....especially as likely, should I make the poor decision to take her out, my angel would totally be making come get it gestures


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cinnamontoast said:


> I'm forever hearing this dog will run 3 miles away and get run over because he's not neutered thing. Urban myth in this day and age, given that people don't let dogs wander loose these days. Maybe it used to happen when dogs were allowed to roam but even thirty years ago, I don't remember this happening.
> 
> My original two weren't neutered and never had issues. Brig couldn't care less if there are in season bitches running round, he's disinterested. The only time he's jumped the six foot fence was to go and play with next door's tortoise.


Hooray you must live in the same perfect bubble as me!!! Even Northern Ireland who aren't known for being up to date with welfare don't have the same latch key dogs maurding around, given strays tend to be lifted now, hence most pounds bursting at the seems! Most opps litters these days seem to come from those who have two entire dogs under the same roof! Again even in the same house it's not rocket science keeping them apart, even if they don't live in a perfect bubble...


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

To be fair I think forum people tend to represent the dog owning minority.

Some people mention being able to keep entire dogs and bitches under the same roof successfully. That's good and well, and it's probably doable with the right management, but the idea of the average person doing that? eeeekkk......

I'm sure most dog owners on here manage their entire bitches appropriately. Your average person.......meh! I've come across bitches that are as ripe as can be off lead in popular walking areas with owners nowhere in sight. 

Entire dogs.....I'm not bothered provided they aren't pests. However there are quite a few of them around here who are terrible pests, nose straight up the wotsits/salivating/teeth chattering/humping freaks with an intensity I have only seen in entire males. Those dogs are probably candidates for neutering, or at least an owner that can bothered to keep them under control.

I would say from my time working in vets that a good majority of 'strays' that turned up were entire males that had vanished on a walk......in fact you'd often get them showing up in pairs......entire male and a red hot bitch, either escapees' from gardens or they'd both vanished on a walk!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Doggiedelight said:


> Im sorry I wasnt totally sure what chemical castration was, i just googled it.
> 
> As for the last bit of your post, I think its an awful thing to insinuate that if a dog gets run ovet trying to get to penny in her season that it should make me feel bad or is partly my fault (if thats not what you meant, as I know that wasnt your exact words than I apologise in advance) i mean i would feel bad at any animal being hurt because thats my nature but it would in no way be my fault. But the fact is penny will have just 1 season and in reality based on what your saying a dog could smell her and run across a road to get to her whether im walking her at home or in the park. I would castrate my dog to avoid him going after a female just as much as i would spay a female to avoid cancer. Castrating may not help just as spaying just stop a female getting cancer in other areas but i would do it. Personal choice but im not to blame for a non castrated male being in distress over penny being in season :/


No that is not what I meant, I didn't say it would be your fault but as one dog lover to another I know you would be upset if it happened even if it wasn't your fault just like I would be if someone else's dog got run over when it was off lead and bothering us and I kept walking without waiting for its owner to come and get it. Not my responsibility but I would still wait or walk back towards the owner rather than keep going to my car. Like I said chemical castration proved in my dogs case that neutering would not have stopped him being distressed/following the scent of a bitch in season and again I wasn't saying you would be to blame for an entire dog being distressed just that it is something to bear in mind particularly when deciding when and where to walk her.

Also can I just point out to those people saying early spaying/neutering before a dog is mature is irresponsible that those of us with rescue dogs are often not allowed to make that call. Many rescues now make adopters sign a contract promising to have both males and bitches done at 6 months of age regardless of the owners views.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Meezey said:


> I really do struggle in threads like these! I do wonder where all these marauding sex mad male dogs live? Between us OH and I have had near 20 entire male dogs in our lives strangely none have broke out ran away to find a bitch 3 miles away and force themselves on them! I also find it worrying in this day and age people think it's perfectly acceptable to spay and neuter so young just for birth control...


One of them lived with me, he was a GSP and he could smell a bitch in season a hell of a long way off - not 3 miles but the other side of the heath. One of our neighbours has an unspayed bitch and he would pick her scent up and try to track her so had to be kept on his lead the whole walk as he would get so wound up if I let him off the other side of the heath where she hadn't even been he would have taken off back to where he could find her scent. Of course he was my responsibility and when that bitch was in season I kept him on his lead but it was all the other bitches that suddenly appeared to be walked in the more remote area as their owner hoped they wouldn't meet any other dogs that made our life so difficult as I never knew if they were about or not until he started to track them. For the bitch owner its just that time of their own dog's season to worry about but for a male dog who does react to the scent of the in season bitch it can go on and on as one bitch finishes her season and another one starts.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Spellweaver said:


> This is probably going to sound incredibly selfish, but why should I put my male dogs under the risk of an unnecessary operation - and an operation that increases certain health risks at that - just so that owners of entire bitches can walk them in peace when they're in season?
> 
> I have two entire dogs and two entire bitches, and if I can (and do) manage to keep them separated and happy when the girls are in season, then why should my entire dogs be a problem for anyone else?


Well if you choose not to, then just control your dog so it doesnt disturb my in season bitch on her 'peaceful walk'. Works both ways.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

[


Doggiedelight said:


> Well if you choose not to, then just control your dog so it doesnt disturb my in season bitch on her 'peaceful walk'. Works both ways.


Not really! You plan to walk an in season bitch, you plan to take her to a heavily populated area, you are saying about how selfish it is for people to have entire dogs, yet knowing people have said it doesn't just effect entire dogs you seem to have the attitude of you don't want others to bother you, but you seem not to care what impact your actions have on others?


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I suppose the fact of the matter is an entire male dog can walk around under control and not cause anyone any issues
But an entire female in season may be walked under control but the trail of scent she leaves can cause all sorts of problems for other dog owners who would have no idea that the scent has been left/is in the air.
So with this thought owners of in-season bitches do have more responsibility - whether that's fair is another question, but it is a responsibility the owners should be aware of. 
Growing up (born 1970) all the female dogs I was aware of were never walked during their seasons - it's only since coming on this forum and owning dogs myself that I realised it is common for in-season bitches to be walked.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> [
> 
> Not really! You plan to walk an in season bitch, you plan to take her to a heavily populated area, you are saying about how selfish it is for people to have entire dogs, yet knowing people have said it doesn't just effect entire dogs you seem to have the attitude of you don't want others to bother you, but you seem not to care what impact your actions have on others?


I would have her on a lead, when normally she would be off lead. Ive already established in regards to camping she most likely would stay with family. 
What people need to realise is responsibility works both ways in terms of entire dogs and unneutered males. thats what this thread is about, owners of unneutered dogs thinking they dont have any responsibility towards their dog when it comes to it going up to an upspeyed female (not neutered dogs). 
If penny is on the lead and your dog comes up to her then its your fault. Im sorry to sound harsh.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Doggiedelight said:


> I would have her on a lead, when normally she would be off lead. Ive already established in regards to camping she most likely would stay with family.
> What people need to realise is responsibility works both ways in terms of entire dogs and unneutered males. thats what this thread is about, owners of unneutered dogs thinking they dont have any responsibility towards their dog when it comes to it going up to an upspeyed female (not neutered dogs).
> *If penny is on the lead and your dog comes up to her then its your fault.* Im sorry to sound harsh.


But that is true in all cases, whether dogs are female or male or in season or not. But if you walk your bitch in season (or heaven forbid take her camping) then you are the one that has to live with the consequences if a male dog does get at her.


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Doggiedelight said:


> I would have her on a lead, when normally she would be off lead. Ive already established in regards to camping she most likely would stay with family.
> What people need to realise is responsibility works both ways in terms of entire dogs and unneutered males. thats what this thread is about, owners of unneutered dogs thinking they dont have any responsibility towards their dog when it comes to it going up to an upspeyed female (not neutered dogs).
> If penny is on the lead and your dog comes up to her then its your fault. Im sorry to sound harsh.


A responsible owner may well recall their dog (entire or otherwise) from your on lead dog - the owner would have no way of knowing she was in season or even if she was female, yet alone if she was spayed or not.
But what they may not be able to do is stop their dog tracking the scent Penny leaves behind.
And whatever happens if a dog (god forbid) fails recall (as my 7 month entire puppy does occasionally) it is you that will ultimately need to deal with the consequences - like I said before not fair but factual.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> I would have her on a lead, when normally she would be off lead. Ive already established in regards to camping she most likely would stay with family.
> What people need to realise is responsibility works both ways in terms of entire dogs and unneutered males. thats what this thread is about, owners of unneutered dogs thinking they dont have any responsibility towards their dog when it comes to it going up to an upspeyed female (not neutered dogs).
> If penny is on the lead and your dog comes up to her then its your fault. Im sorry to sound harsh.


You are missing the point! You can keep her on a lead, it makes no difference if you feel you have the right to walk your in season bitch where ever you want when. ever you want with no respect for those who have dogs be they neutered or a bitch you are being selfish and inconsiderate! No one will know your bitch is in season so if a dog who reacts approaches her who's fault is that? If a neutered male blows their recall because you chose to carry on regardless? The owner doesn't know your dog is in season or an in season bitch is the reason their normally bomb proof bitch is acting strange or out if character! You seem to think you have no responsibility other than putting her on a lead?


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

Doggiedelight said:


> owners of unneutered dogs thinking they dont have any responsibility towards their dog when it comes to it going up to an upspeyed female (not neutered dogs).


Who said that?

I've had plenty of of intact males, and I'm perfectly happy to keep them away from your bitch, whether she is in heat or not. 
In fact, I'll also keep my neutered male and spayed female away from your bitch because that's just how I roll


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> You are missing the point! You can keep her on a lead, it makes no difference if you feel you have the right to walk your in season bitch where ever you want when. ever you want with no respect for those who have dogs be they neutered or a bitch you are being selfish and inconsiderate! No one will know your bitch is in season so if a dog who reacts approaches her who's fault is that? If a neutered male blows their recall because you chose to carry on regardless? The owner doesn't know your dog is in season or an in season bitch is the reason their normally bomb proof bitch is acting strange or out if character! You seem to think you have no responsibility other than putting her on a lead?


I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish. Just my opinion. As for having no other responsibility other than putting her on a lead, thats codswallop, that was just an example of how I would walk her instead of being offlead which she normally would be. Im a very good dog owner. As im sure everyone is on here. We all have our own views and opinions.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Doggiedelight said:


> Well if you choose not to, then just control your dog so it doesnt disturb my in season bitch on her 'peaceful walk'. Works both ways.


I haven't read this entire thread but the courtesy thing does indeed swing both ways......


Doggiedelight said:


> I would have her on a lead, when normally she would be off lead. Ive already established in regards to camping she most likely would stay with family.
> What people need to realise is responsibility works both ways in terms of entire dogs and unneutered males. thats what this thread is about, owners of unneutered dogs thinking they dont have any responsibility towards their dog when it comes to it going up to an upspeyed female (not neutered dogs).
> If penny is on the lead and your dog comes up to her then its your fault. Im sorry to sound harsh.


I get what you are saying but it's up to you to protect your dog. I personally wouldn't want to be fending off entire males or my bitch to be getting stressed in the event she was pursued, so I was (my bitches are now both spayed) very careful when they were in season. Seeing as most people lack even the most basic of control including the ability to call their dog back, I'd be settling my dog up for failure by taking her out where there were other dogs and expecting a.) people to know she she was in season and b.) people to care to control their dog......

I could get uppity about it but really I'd be wasting my breath.......bit like I'd be wasting my breath trying to educate the people who think that their 'really friendly dog who is so sociable and just loves to play' dogs is welcomed by everyone....


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Who said that?
> 
> I've had plenty of of intact males, and I'm perfectly happy to keep them away from your bitch, whether she is in heat or not.
> In fact, I'll also keep my neutered male and spayed female away from your bitch because that's just how I roll


And also because we are miles away from eachother, but dont forget ive ben told males will run for miles and miles to 'jump her bones'  so watch your sex pest of a dog will you lol


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish. Just my opinion. As for having no other responsibility other than putting her on a lead, thats codswallop, that was just an example of how I would walk her instead of being offlead which she normally would be. Im a very good dog owner. As im sure everyone is on here. We all have our own views and opinions.


Yet you seem to think your only responsibility is to put her on a lead, and anything after that is everyone else's problem? Yet insist everyone that doesn't neuter is selfish?

Interesting.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

labradrk said:


> I haven't read this entire thread but the courtesy thing does indeed swing both ways......
> 
> I get what you are saying but it's up to you to protect your dog. I personally wouldn't want to be fending off entire males or my bitch to be getting stressed in the event she was pursued, so I was (my bitches are now both spayed) very careful when they were in season. Seeing as most people lack even the most basic of control including the ability to call their dog back, I'd be settling my dog up for failure by taking her out where there were other dogs and expecting a.) people to know she she was in season and b.) people to care to control their dog......
> 
> I could get uppity about it but really I'd be wasting my breath.......bit like I'd be wasting my breath trying to educate the people who think that their 'really friendly dog who is so sociable and just loves to play' dogs is welcomed by everyone....


You are right curteosy does work both ways and up to that point I have been more than polite and never once on this forum been anything other, but if the same person isnt polite or has a difficute tone then At some point, like I did, I will speak back.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Doggiedelight said:


> I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish. Just my opinion. As for having no other responsibility other than putting her on a lead, thats codswallop, that was just an example of how I would walk her instead of being offlead which she normally would be. Im a very good dog owner. As im sure everyone is on here. We all have our own views and opinions.


Woah.......why are you lumping everyone in the same boat? I'm very much pro spaying/neutering when the dog of an appropriate age, but equally I respect that fact that plenty of people are capable of managing entire dogs safely. You also realise that if everyone neutered their dogs most dog breed would die out.....


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Yet you seem to think your only responsibility is to put her on a lead, and anything after that is everyone else's problem? Yet insist everyone that doesn't neuter is selfish?
> 
> Interesting.


Did I not just clarify the issue that I dont think my only responsibilty is just putting her on a lead. Yes I did.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> You are right curteosy does work both ways and up to that point I have been more than polite and never once on this forum been anything other, but if the same person isnt polite or has a difficute tone then At some point, like I did, I will speak back.


Yet you call those that don't neuter selfish? Blanket sweeping statement about people! Then expect courtesy?


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

labradrk said:


> Woah.......why are you lumping everyone in the same boat? I'm very much pro spaying/neutering when the dog of an appropriate age, but equally I respect that fact that plenty of people are capable of managing entire dogs safely. You also realise that if everyone neutered their dogs most dog breed would die out.....


No sorry, Im getting frustrated and clearly not making sense. I thinj I need to take a step back. Its not like me normally. im just annoyed. Of course if breeding you wouldnt spay/neuter. There will ALWAYS be exceptions. To anything in life. 
For the moment I will leave this thread and have a cup of tea. Im not one to jump on anyone normally and getting frustrated and replying will get me nowhere and I will do myself no favours and end up saying things I dont want to say and upset people. We are all here because we love dogs and we all have that in common. Lets all have a cuppa.....


----------



## Guest (Jul 28, 2015)

Doggiedelight said:


> No sorry, Im getting frustrated and clearly not making sense. I thinj I need to take a step back. Its not like me normally. im just annoyed. Of course if breeding you wouldnt spay/neuter. There will ALWAYS be exceptions. To anything in life.
> For the moment I will leave this thread and have a cup of tea. Im not one to jump on anyone normally and getting frustrated and replying will get me nowhere and I will do myself no favours and end up saying things I dont want to say and upset people. We are all here because we love dogs and we all have that in common. Lets all have a cuppa.....


School summer holidays are well and truly here...


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Doggiedelight said:


> No sorry, Im getting frustrated and clearly not making sense. I thinj I need to take a step back. Its not like me normally. im just annoyed. Of course if breeding you wouldnt spay/neuter. There will ALWAYS be exceptions. To anything in life.
> For the moment I will leave this thread and have a cup of tea. Im not one to jump on anyone normally and getting frustrated and replying will get me nowhere and I will do myself no favours and end up saying things I dont want to say and upset people. We are all here because we love dogs and we all have that in common. Lets all have a cuppa.....


It's too late for tea.......I'll be up all night peeing.....:Beaver


----------



## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

labradrk said:


> It's too late for tea.......I'll be up all night peeing.....:Beaver


I'm just enjoying a lovely hot chocolate before bed - sometimes I think I'm more 5 than 45 :Shamefullyembarrased


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish. Just my opinion. As for having no other responsibility other than putting her on a lead, thats codswallop, that was just an example of how I would walk her instead of being offlead which she normally would be. Im a very good dog owner. As im sure everyone is on here. We all have our own views and opinions.


What the fudge.

Its getting harder & harder not to get dragged into this.

I'd of red repped you for the 'selfish' statement. Just sayin 

I also feel sorry for your poor bitch if your going to be taking her out & about whilst she's in season knowing what could happen & the reaction it could provoke. I also feel sorry for anyone using the same route as you, as you clearly don't care that it might affect their walk too whether their dog be neutered or not.
But hey, your bitch but not your problem? Yet I'm selfish for keeping my boy entire? Ok then 

Enjoy your tea. You brought this on yourself.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Fleur said:


> I'm just enjoying a lovely hot chocolate before bed - sometimes I think I'm more 5 than 45 :Shamefullyembarrased


Ah that's ok.....about 10pm is my cut off point for caffeine......nothing worse than getting out of bed when you are just about to nod off!!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Doggiedelight said:


> No sorry, Im getting frustrated and clearly not making sense. I thinj I need to take a step back. Its not like me normally. im just annoyed. Of course if breeding you wouldnt spay/neuter. There will ALWAYS be exceptions. To anything in life.
> For the moment I will leave this thread and have a cup of tea. Im not one to jump on anyone normally and getting frustrated and replying will get me nowhere and I will do myself no favours and end up saying things I dont want to say and upset people. We are all here because we love dogs and we all have that in common. Lets all have a cuppa.....


I know you are a responsible and caring owner so yes have a cup of tea and unwind for now. Its hard when you feel everyone else is against your opinion but I think some of us feel you are not quite understanding that the owner of the male dog might not be able to stop their dog picking up and following Penny's scent. Its not just Penny don't forget its every bitch in season so on some walks there may be more than one, then there might be none for weeks then suddenly a bitch you have never seen before is being walked in season right under your nose. My boy wouldn't have needed to have seen Penny as he would have started to track her from a long way off as soon as we crossed her path. Fleur is right, dog owning etiquette a few years back was not to walk an in season bitch in public but that seems to have gone out of the window these days and people just do as they please with an "I'm alright Jack" attitude not even being aware of the consequences for other dogs/owners. Of course as a male dog owner if I saw someone coming with a bitch I knew was in season I would put my dog on a lead and walk the other way so as not to cross their tracks but more often I would cross their tracks first then have to try and get my dog back. Neutering (chemical castration) did not alter this behaviour as with some dogs the smell is the driving factor not their sex hormones.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

My little pug is entire because he has been too poorly for most of his life to have him done but even if he hadn't been I do not think I would have him neutered anyway because of the health risks for a male dog that is. Why should I have to put my dogs health at risk solely because owners of entire females can not show a little consideration for other dog owners for a couple of weeks just a couple of times a year. My daughter has an entire male, he can not be neutered because of health reasons and he suffers badly for a lot of the time because where she lives is surrounded by entire females, it is not always for SELFISH reasons that a dog stays entire and to be honest I do resent the implication that my daughter and I are selfish because we have entire males.


----------



## LoopyL (Jun 16, 2015)

mmm I love hot chocolate but don't think it would mix well with the tomato soup I just had for supper
All my dogs have been spayed or neutered. I did have a BC who wasn't neutered (he only sniffed a bitch in season once)
& he got prostate cancer at 14 so will always neuter now especially as I have no desire to produce puppies.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Rosie64 said:


> My little pug is entire because he has been too poorly for most of his life to have him done but even if he hadn't been I do not think I would have him neutered anyway because of the health risks for a male dog that is. Why should I have to put my dogs health at risk solely because owners of entire females can not show a little consideration for other dog owners for a couple of weeks just a couple of times a year. My daughter has an entire male, he can not be neutered because of health reasons and he suffers badly for a lot of the time because where she lives is surrounded by entire females, it is not always for SELFISH reasons that a dog stays entire and to be honest I do resent the implication that my daughter and I are selfish because we have entire males.


I did say in another post their are exeptions. No one would judge you for not being able to donit because your dog cant have it done Under vet advice. Certainly not me.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

That post was put up whilst I was writing mine but previous to that you did make a blanket statement as to people being selfish who do not neuter.I am not an argumentative person so as you say we are all dog lovers here so will let it go at that but you must realise that some people have no choice but to have entire males or risk their lives to neuter so your statement was rather out of order


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Doggiedelight said:


> I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish.


What a silly comment to make


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

i 


Rosie64 said:


> That post was put up whilst I was writing mine but previous to that you did make a blanket statement as to people being selfish who do not neuter.I am not an argumentative person so as you say we are all dog lovers here so will let it go at that but you must realise that some people have no choice but to have entire males or risk their lives to neuter so your statement was rather out of order


Yes I did because MEEZEY called me selfish prior to that, and childishly I made a comment back and used the word selfish and banded everyone together. Wrong of me.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

stuaz said:


> What a silly comment to make


Yes I did because MEEZEY called me selfish prior to that, and childishly I made a comment back and used the word selfish and banded everyone together. Wrong of me.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Doggiedelight said:


> Yes I did because MEEZEY called me selfish prior to that, and childishly I made a comment back and used the word selfish and banded everyone together. Wrong of me.


At least you are big enough to admit you made a silly comment. Some people would try and defend the point rather than admit they were wrong.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Well I have had my cup of tea and a couple of choccy biccy's would any one else like a choccy biccy lol


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Amazingly they manage very well in scandinavian countries where routine spay and neuter is not practiced within their dog populations; nor do they have rescue crises to my knowledge

As for spaying and neutering that is entirely an individual choice for odg owners and I have both a male and female - I believe that the health effects of spaying a bitch far outweigh those of keeping in tact and believe the opposite to be true for males

Ideally I would have spayed Kes after two seasons but she was very distressed with her hormones so I did this after her first season - Targ has to be in tact as part of his contract of sale just in case in the future he proves to be an ideal stud dog through health tests and show results and as he is a giant breed I definitely would not be neutering him early at all - It's my responsibility as an owner with an intact male to ensure he does not harass any intact females but equally I feel that bitch owners should be responsible with their in season bitches to try and avoid this situation too


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

lostbear said:


> Our neutered staffie was a sex fiend (he was 3 and a half when I finally persuaded Mr LB to let him lose his family jewels. *He stopped raping my shoulder,* our cushions, and any small child or large teddy bears, but he could still do the business with a bitch in heat if she was standing in front of him giving him the glad eye, and actually tied with a beagle bitch on heat to the great consternation of her owner.


Is that really the appropriate word to be using?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

[QUOTE, Fluffster]

Neutering ... can have [undesirable] behavioural effects, particularly [in] *nervous or anxious [male] dogs*.
.
.
Having heard this myth for the umpteenth time, I want someone to post links to actual peer-
reviewed journal articles containing DATA to support this outrageous statement - which per-
sonally, after over 40-years in dogs, I'd never heard before until just a few-yrs ago, here on
PF-uk.
Either ante up some evidence with creditable research to back it up, or *stop saying it.*
*Period. -- If someone on this forum cannot produce evidence that we can examine,*
*with data that supports "neutering makes spooky MALE dogs worse post-desex", *
*published in a peer-reviewed reputable journal, don't say it again - not on PF-uk,*
*not on any other forum, not in any public space; not on FaceHack, not on Twit-**feed,*
*not in a letter to the editor... **As in, "ever".*
*Either produce evidence, or bury this dud forever.*
*.*
Some facts:
* "Neuter" refers to desex of both M & F dogs. How come F dogs who are spooky before de-
sex don't become neurotic, impossible-to-live-with, pitiable wrecks after spaying, doomed to
live this way for the rest of their unhappy lives?... *What a bl**dy soap-opera.*
.
* If it's true, given that I have worked exclusively with "dogs with issues" since 1985, *why*
_*haven't i encountered this as a post-surgery problem,*_ since many of the dogs i worked
with were feral, semi-feral, or undersocialized on arrival in local shelters & rescues, *& all of*
*them were desexed before being placed with adopters or fosters?*
Why did the male dogs that ** _*I *_** met, & worked with, sometimes for months on end, become
not *"worse",* but better? - They became LESS fearful, not more so.
Do I credit their improvement to their desex surgery? - of course not; i credit it to the work we did,
the owners or fosters & myself AND the dogs, working to get them more happy social exposure,
teach them to trust, give them desirable behaviors, & build consistent, reliable relationships with
those dogs.
.
* I have never seen a journal article, not one, allege that M dogs who are shy, timid, globally
fearful, etc, become WORSE after being neutered / castrated / desexed / "fixed" / whatever other
PC, polite, euphemistic term U'd choose.
.
.
QUOTE:
I think it's unlikely you'd be inundated with dogs from miles away, but if you are somewhere with other dogs around, you may
find it a stressful and unpleasant experience for both you and Penny.
.
This statement i can agree with; yes, intact-Ms who are nearby or downwind will find her fascinating,
& even desexed M-dogs can mount & tie - they just won't produce a litter, 63 to 65 days later. Just like
an intact-M, a desexed M can TIE to a F, & the risk of injury to both parties still exists.
.
.


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Apologies, I should have changed it to "is thought to cause", which is accurate. I believe there is a bigger study underway following a study of around 10,000 dogs a few years ago which did see a correlation in neutering and anxious and fearful behaviour. It will be interesting to see the results, and if the advice to neuter will change as a result, if a larger scale and peer reviewed study finds similar to the earlier study.


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

This is the data, if anyone is interested. It also discusses bone formation in both male and female neutered dogs.
http://weimaranerclubofamerica.org/main/pdf/HMColumn0112.pdf


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE:

We could have lost our Saluki, because we refused to get him castrated as per the rescue's agreement.
But he had needed [surgery] on his foot when a puppy & reacted very badly to the anesthetic, and there was no way 
we [would] put him at risk again. 
We had to get a letter from our vet to confirm this (& [to prove] the vet's agreement with our decision), but the rescue
was not happy...
(I realise their strict rules were to stop any back door breeding of Salukis, but the rules didn't allow for health exceptions, 
which I think was wrong).
.
.
This is downright bizarre.
There is no need for G-A to desex a M dog, U just use a local anaesthetic & do the op. It's short
& very simple. It takes just a few minutes, & most of that is spent STITCHING, not cutting or re-
moving.
Just like any other op, oral pain relief is available, but most M dogs don't need much, & if they do
need pain-control, it's usually only for the 1st day or 2. *Cropping a dog's ears takes longer, is*
*far bloodier, & requires many-more stitches than desex ever does.*
.
"Can't have G-A" is not an excuse for avoiding desex in an adopted purebred, & this is just one
more reason for rescue organizations to desex their pets BEFORE placing them with adopters.
.
.
.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE:
> 
> We could have lost our Saluki, because we refused to get him castrated as per the rescue's agreement.
> But he had needed [surgery] on his foot when a puppy & reacted very badly to the anesthetic, and there was no way
> ...


That may be so in your neck of the woods, but where we lived, a GA was used for neutering.
Also, if a vet tells you that your dog is at risk from further GA's, who are you going to believe - someone who insists that the vet was wrong on an internet forum,or a qualified vet who has never let you down before?

As to 'de-sexing' pets before they go to their adopters, our Saluki came to us at 10 weeks old. Do you really believe that it is best to 'de-sex' a dog before it is 10 weeks old???

I'm frankly, amazed at your response.


----------



## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Oh dear, suspect OP regrets starting this thread now.

In my opinion:
Not neutering a dog who displays sex hormone related behaviours likely to be improved by neutering AND failing to manage those behaviours in other ways (eg having the dog on lead where appropriate) is selfish. Just like not bothering to manage any other behavioural issue and expecting the rest of the world to put up with it is selfish. 

Choosing to keep your dog entire after a considered decision (be it for health, behaviour or simply an ethical standpoint) is not remotely selfish, assuming you use basic good dog ownership practices of keeping your dog under control.

Neutering your dog then not bothering to control it because "it can't make puppies so what is the problem" is selfish

Taking your in season bitch to places you know you are likely to encounter other dogs, entire or not, and knowing you are likely to cause problems for other walkers due to their dogs being distracted, stressed, acting out of character etc is possibly a little less than considerate....... 

Finally, unless you walk with a large banner saying "my dog is in season" or shout the same to walkers in the distance via a megaphone then other dog owners won't know and may not be prepared for their dog to blow a usually good recall so criticising them for letting their dog come up is a little unfair (yes in an ideal world our dogs would have 100% recall whatever the distraction but I think few of us can hand on heart say our dog has never, ever blown a recall). Plus remember that whilst it isn't right a large proportion of dog owners in the general population don't have a good recall and don't really care, and see no issues with letting their dog approach one on lead. So really I do think walking an in season bitch and expecting not to be bothered is unrealistic


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

labradrk said:


> I haven't read this entire thread but the courtesy thing does indeed swing both ways......
> 
> I get what you are saying but it's up to you to protect your dog. I personally wouldn't want to be fending off entire males or my bitch to be getting stressed in the event she was pursued, so I was (my bitches are now both spayed) very careful when they were in season. Seeing as most people lack even the most basic of control including the ability to call their dog back, I'd be settling my dog up for failure by taking her out where there were other dogs and expecting a.) people to know she she was in season and b.) people to care to control their dog......
> 
> I could get uppity about it but really I'd be wasting my breath.......bit like I'd be wasting my breath trying to educate the people who think that their 'really friendly dog who is so sociable and just loves to play' dogs is welcomed by everyone....


This, totally.

Why create a situation where there is a good chance of drama or problems, especially for your own dog, when the solution is so simple? If it happened unexpectedly whilst away on holiday - then one would have to manage it the best one could, but that is quite different.

It's impossible to predict/control other owners/dogs - so I would not knowingly put myself/my bitch in that situation, for the sake of a few days missed walks.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

This, totally.

Jack will often track his BFF by following her scent (and vice versa) until we catch them up somewhere on route  They are both neutered, but I'm sure we would be running a lot faster if they weren't and she was in season! 

I don't know how the law stands, but if an owner took a bitch out in public whilst in season and was impregnated by a male dog (and it may even have been on a lead too) - where would the liability lie? 

Who pays for the mismate jab, vet bills, or pregnancy costs, pups, etc?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Fluffster said:


> This is the data, if anyone is interested. It also discusses bone formation in both male and female neutered dogs.
> http://weimaranerclubofamerica.org/main/pdf/HMColumn0112.pdf


Thank you for this - very interesting and it's a pretty big study, too, so the results have more weight. Do you know if anyone has replicated it? I would be interested to see further research.

Our staffie was neutered at 3and a half, and remained as ever, and amiable idiot. All of our other boys (except Loki) were castrated at 6 months and we had no problems). Loki was later because he was such a big dog.

We've had all our bitches spayed after their first season, and two have certainly been more anxious than I would expect, and in one this translated into fear aggression which made her hard work. Obviously two bitches can't be translate into reliable data, but it has certainly made me think about the benefits of neutering.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Is that really the appropriate word to be using?


I apologise if you are offended.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Once again, being a responsible dog owner and having entire males are not mutually exclusive!

I know plenty of irresponsible owners of neutered/entire males (and females) and vice versa.

As someone who currently has an entire female (as well as an entire male) I believe whilst the owners of both must be responsible towards other dogs and their owners, the onus is on the owner of the female as they are the ones which risk getting impregnated and having a litter.

I have not had a problem with my entire male at shows where in season females have been exhibited nor at IPO events where in season females are permitted to compete.

I have had a problem with a neutered male who could not think straight around an in season bitch.

As the owner of one in season bitch you have to balance the needs of one against the desires of many and, IMHO, keep your dog out of harms way at this time.

ALL dogs should be under full control whether neutered or not and on a lead if not trained to recall whatever the distraction.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

"I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish."

Did you not notice the list of health risks associated with castration, particularly of young males (before maturity)?

Seriously, do some research, read the studies that show a significant increase in crippling, painful disorders like HD, cruciate rupture and bone cancer and then tell me what's so selfish about leaving a large breed, prone to the above diseases, dog entire as long as possible?
Do you honestly believe that lopping off bits of a dog's body, removing various hormones etc is without risks? That neutering is some sort of magical cure all that prevents every known disease and bad behaviour like a surgical magic wand??


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Personally I don't understand why anyone would be irresponsible enough to take an in season bitch to a popular and busy off leash area. Doesn;t matter what right you have or whether said bitch is on leash, it's asking for an "accidental" mating.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Personally I don't understand why anyone would be irresponsible enough to take an in season bitch to a popular and busy off leash area. Doesn;t matter what right you have or whether said bitch is on leash, it's asking for an "accidental" mating.


Ignorance mostly. I think a lot of people don't understand the impact it can have.

Although I'll never forget a Spaniel bitch in the woods who standing for my dogs and the entire male dog I was walking with who was extremely interested. When the owner finally found us and got a tongue lashing, she said it wouldn't be a problem if the Lab (entire) caught the bitch as she was hoping for puppies. I was gobsmacked!


----------



## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I am surprised no one has already said this but I think if you took an in season bitch to a camp site you would be totally out of order. It could be a nightmare for all the other dog owners, not just entire males but castrated males and other bitches. Just the smell of her and anywhere she had peed could be cause to ruin other dog owners holiday.


Agree!
I take mine camping when I can and would not dream of going when Runa is in heat. Not only do I think it is unfair but I also think it would be too risky... I go on my own, so when I am off to shower and pamper the dogs will be alone. What if they got out or someone let them out unintentionally and she got caught by a male?? It would ruin my holiday with worry let alone owners of other dogs!!

I think if you choose to keep your girl intact, you must have the decency to be conscious of other dog owners and keep your girlie out of the way. I stick to pavement walks and jogging. I have found a tiny park to let her off in as there is two small entrances between two tennis courts so I can see if anyone is coming in before we get to close 



Fleur said:


> Zipper slipped put our tent once (was being moved form crate inside to outside tie out post) and stole someone sausages  My son was close behind him trying to catch him but with the jackpot of sausages he ran amok through the campsite for a couple of minutes before we managed to catch him


Rossi did this!! he slipped out to check out the horses though! 
SO glad I spent the time CC him to horses before we went or that could have turned out very badly! But he was super, I could see one getting a bit agitated and he came back as soon as I called him


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Doggiedelight said:


> I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish. Just my opinion.


You are entitled to your opinion. However, as I've always found you to be an intelligent person then I suspect that your opinion might change if you come at this from a diferent angle - ie do a little research and find out the increased health risks neutered males run. I would imagine that most owners who choose to keep their male dogs entire do so because they feel that it is in the best interests of their dogs. That doesn't strike me as selfish - that's good ownership.

As I've said before, I have entire dogs and entire bitches. I don't walk the bitches in season - I exercise them in the garden (separately from the dogs). It's so much easier than running the risk of getting other males worked up - or even getting my own bitches worked up when they meet other bitches - because I've noticed that when they are in season they can become more dominant over my other bitches and I would not want to run the risk of aggression to other bitches on a walk.


----------



## E.Lab.Lover (Jul 21, 2015)

I have had a female from a puppy and we were told to let her have a season or two before neutering so we did. It was MY sole responsibility to keep her from other dogs and protect her for that time. She stayed in a lot of the time and used mental stimulus and ball in the garden to keep her happy. We did take her out a few times but only were we going to be alone, just so she could stretch her legs.

I now have a male puppy and I have no intention of putting him through an operation for no reason. If how ever he cannot control himself around a bitch etc I will get him neutered.

IMO it is the responsibility of the bItches owner to keep her safe. If you are letting her seasons before spaying. Bitches should always be spayed for health benefits.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

So me taking all risks on board and deciding that my dog does not need an operation to lop bits off of him that would make zero difference to a bitch owner (because I keep control of my dog, entire or not) is being selfish?

OK, if that's the case then I will take it...I am selfish for not risking a GA with a large dog (ALL GA's are a risk), selfish for not wanting to risk affecting his behaviour negatively due to a lack of testosterone, and selfish for not wanting to risk the other types of cancer that can come with neutering...


Yet neutered dogs owners are all fine and dandy regardless of behaviour because they have had their balls chopped off 

It's ok to have the opinion that you think all dogs should be neutered..it's not ok to then reprimand responsible owners because they don't fall in to line with yourself 

This thread is about irresponsible owners of ANY dog, not whether the dogs have been neutered or not...


----------



## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

I have 2 entire dogs, neither go tracking in season bitches, Dan is interested in them but as I don't allow my dogs to approach any dogs we don't know off lead it's not an issue. I'd rather not put my boys through an operation I don't think they need just because other owners don't control their own dogs.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just for the OP one of the many reasons I chose not to neuter after careful consideration and research:

http://www.therottweilerclub.co.uk/health/bone-cancer-in-rottweilers/

My Rottweiler bitch would have been left entire for as long as possible except she was depressed when in season so it was unfair of me to allow her to have more, again something carefully considered! I am well aware of my responsibilities having entire males, none of my males past or present have been responsible for any accidentally matings, nor will any future dogs! Nor have they or will they harass other dogs be they in season or not. I was also very aware of my responsibilities having an entire female, she wasn't walked as it was unfair not just to her but to ALL other dogs who walked there! So while some chose not to neuter it doesn't make them any less aware of their responsibilities!


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Having heard this myth for the umpteenth time, I want someone to post links to actual peer-
> reviewed journal articles containing DATA to support this outrageous statement - which per-
> sonally, after over 40-years in dogs, I'd never heard before until just a few-yrs ago, here on
> PF-uk.


Science and thinking changes over 40 years. You could look at something like http://www.saveourdogs.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Aggression-and-spay-neuter-in-dogs.pdf (section 3.5) found in less than 5 minutes. Obviously you are using only peer reviewed studies rather than your 40 years experience to base any comments on. Yes neutering can be a positive influence for some behaviour but each dog should be looked at as an individual and decisions made at that individual level, not as a blanket guideline. This goes for both male and female dogs in the hands of responsible owners.

You may also want to look at http://www.ijssh.org/papers/36-H058.pdf and I am sure you can point out where these "perfect peer review procedures" are in place.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> [QUOTE, Fluffster]
> 
> Neutering ... can have [undesirable] behavioural effects, particularly [in] *nervous or anxious [male] dogs*.
> .
> ...


LFL I appreciate this is something you feel strongly about and you are entitled to do so but please don't tell us what we can and can't say and where we can say it. Lots of people have opinions and those opinions may be based on their own experience or on experience gained working in a vets or a rescue or being involved with training classes. Just because there isn't a scientific peer reviewed journal article to back up every single thing we might post or have an opinion on doesn't mean we should be told off and sent to the corner like naughty children for expressing our views in a debate


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE:
> .
> This is downright bizarre.
> There is no need for G-A to desex a M dog, U just use a local anaesthetic & do the op. It's short
> ...


I have yet to hear of a dog being castrated without GA in this country. You seem to like them being done when they are tiny puppies so it probably would be ok with them but I do not think many vets would either castrate a young pup at all or castrate a more mature dog without GA. As for ear cropping, thank goodness that is illegal in this country.
I am pro neutering and do not believe it affects a dog adversely but I do not see the point in doing them if it is not necessary (males) and do not think a male should be done as young as 6 months let alone whatever age you like them done.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I have yet to hear of a dog being castrated without GA in this country. You seem to like them being done when they are tiny puppies so it probably would be ok with them but I do not think many vets would either castrate a young pup at all or castrate a more mature dog without GA. As for ear cropping, thank goodness that is illegal in this country.
> I am pro neutering and do not believe it affects a dog adversely but I do not see the point in doing them if it is not necessary (males) and do not think a male should be done as young as 6 months let alone whatever age you like them done.


I'm in the US and have never heard of castration without GA. We don't even geld horses without GA. At least none of my vets did....
If my vet told me not to neuter because of anesthesia risks, I think I'd listen to my vet


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> If my vet told me not to neuter because of anesthesia risks, I think I'd listen to my vet


Just as an aside, but because I was the one who mentioned this particular concern. When our Saluki had a GA for damage to his foot, his heart stopped. Luckily they were able to bring him round and he was fine, but it was obviously of concern to our vet (and it has been a concern incidentally for other Saluki owners).
Our Saluki died suddenly late last year at the age of 11. It was probably his heart - he died in his sleep after being perfectly well - but we didn't get a PM done to check it out. His brother and litter mate also died suddenly almost the same month.
Leo had well over 11 good years with us and we are very grateful for that. Had he been subject to a second GA (this time for for castration), we think his chances of achieving those 11 years would have been very slim indeed.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

labradrk said:


> Ignorance mostly. I think a lot of people don't understand the impact it can have.
> 
> Although I'll never forget a Spaniel bitch in the woods who standing for my dogs and the entire male dog I was walking with who was extremely interested. When the owner finally found us and got a tongue lashing, she said it wouldn't be a problem if the Lab (entire) caught the bitch as she was hoping for puppies. I was gobsmacked!


Oh I've encountered a fair few with that attitude. It makes me wonder just how many of these "accidental" matings really are accidental rather than someone hoping for it to happen and/or simply not taking any real measures to prevent it.

I've nothing against in season bitches being walked but I don't think they belong in popular off leash places regardless of whether they're on or off leash. Stick to quiet areas at the quietest possible times for everyones sake. Including your own bitches. It's all very well saying dogs shouldn't be off lead if they can't be recalled from any and every distraction, that's just not realistic. Most owners don't seem to have even a somewhat reliable recall in boring circumstances so to expect them to be able to recall an entire male from a bitch in season is asking way too much.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Just for the OP one of the many reasons I chose not to neuter after careful consideration and research:
> 
> http://www.therottweilerclub.co.uk/health/bone-cancer-in-rottweilers/
> 
> My Rottweiler bitch would have been left entire for as long as possible except she was depressed when in season so it was unfair of me to allow her to have more, again something carefully considered! I am well aware of my responsibilities having entire males, none of my males past or present have been responsible for any accidentally matings, nor will any future dogs! Nor have they or will they harass other dogs be they in season or not. I was also very aware of my responsibilities having an entire female, she wasn't walked as it was unfair not just to her but to ALL other dogs who walked there! So while some chose not to neuter it doesn't make them any less aware of their responsibilities!


As you were the first one to call ME selfish and yet everyone seems to have jumped on me for using the word im sorry I wont be reading a post or links you quote. I apologised. Could you not be grown up enough to do the same???


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your responses. Some very valid points regarding why people choose not to neuter males. I guess its like anything there are pros and cons and we as owners can only make our best judgement based on the info we have and live with the consequences. But we all do our best and its all we can do. I have found it interesting how some people have approached their responses compared to others. Myself included. I was uptight last night And I apologise If i offended anyone. 
I will leave this thread now. 

Danielle xx


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> As you were the first one to call ME selfish and yet everyone seems to have jumped on me for using the word im sorry I wont be reading a post or links you quote. I apologised. Could you not be grown up enough to do the same???


I do think you as an individual are being selfish in thinking your only responsibility is to put your in season bitch on a lead and carry on regardless. I'm not going to apologise for what I think? You made the comments that you think all dogs should be neutered and that from reading this forum you think male dog owners aren't responsible? You made the statement about all those who don't neuter being selfish?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Silvi:
...
As to 'de-sexing' pets before they go to their adopters, our Saluki came to us at 10-WO.
Do you really believe that it is best to 'de-sex' a dog before [s/he] is 10 weeks old???
.
.
Both the USA's AVMA / Am Med-Vet Assoc, & Australia's corresponding Small-Animal Vets' Assoc,
_*as well as Britain's / the UK's Veterinary Association, *_have all concluded, based on many years
of data, that desexing healthy pups & kittens is very safe.
Any pup over 2# weight in the USA is regarded as safe to desex; shelters do not usually desex any
pup or kitten BEFORE they have an approved adopter for that individual animal, so desex is done at
whatever age s/he might be, when someone applies to adopt that pet, & is approved.
.
That means the age of desex will vary, but today, Std Operating Procedure is to desex BEFORE the
pet changes hands, from the possession of the shelter or rescue to that of the adopter. The only ex-
ception is in the case of rescues who take in litters or intact older animals, as they leave them intact
in the homes of their volunteer fosters until they can arrange a desex-op.
Such rescue-groups don't have the luxury of a facility to house their pets; they distribute them among
volunteers who feed, shelter, socialize, & otherwise care for them while they await adoption. Fosters
are expected to monitor, confine, & otherwise be vigilant to prevent any possible pregnancies among
their charges, whatever their ages, before they are neutered.
.
As for "best", since younger pups & kittens actually heal faster, spend less time under anaesthesia,
BLEED less, SCAR less, have less PAIN, etc, so in comparison to the longer, bloodier, more-painful
procedure for an older pup or kit, I'd think the animal - if s/he had the choice & was capable of making
that decision for her or himself - would vote for the earlier op.
Since the pup or kit can't comprehend or make that comparison, i'd say it's up to the shelter, rescue,
breeder, or owner to decide - & i'd suggest the less-painful, lower-risk early option.
.
If i were a breeder & sold progeny of my breeding to someone who would not be using that animal as
a future potential sire or dam, i'd desex before the sale. If any pup or kit of my breeding had ANY her-
itable issues that were problematic, I wouldn't bother filing a "limited registration" - i'd just desex 'em &
prevent any possible breeding in future from that animal.
.
* the average USA nationwide compliance rate with desex contracts re adopted pets from shelters or
rescues is only 40%; the other 60% are intact, to churn out yet more unplanned or unwanted or surplus
offspring. That's WITH a contract that allows the pet to be confiscated, or for fines, jail time, etc.
.
* Buyers or adopters will promise anything to get the pet they want into their possession, but they won't
necessarily follow thru on those promises - even when they are in writing, with consequences.
.
* Desex before the change of ownership eliminates those failures - the decision is a fait accompli, & the
adopter or buyer gets the animal who is already reproductively sterile.
.
* A "limited registration" only prevents the REGISTRATION of any progeny of that purebred / registered
animal; it doesn't prevent breeding unregistered purebred, crossbred, accidental pregnancies, etc.
Desex before sale prevents *all* future offspring of that animal.
.
Here are links on *pediatric *[before 12-WO] AKA "*early" *desex - 
.
http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm
Please note the vet who desexes his pups at the buyer's request before they go home, for no added
fee - he breeds Irish Wolfhounds. In his last 2 litters, every buyer had their pup desexed before they
picked them up.
.
http://www.aspcapro.org/resource/shelter-health-animal-care/pediatric-spayneuter
.
https://www.avma.org/news/journals/collections/pages/avma-collections-spayneuter.aspx
.
BTW, more studies have been done to substantiate the safety of pediatric desex than have ever been
done on the bog-standard 6-MO pubertal desex - SOP since before my birth, over 50-ys ago. We have
more data on the IMPROVED safety record of pediatric desex than we have on pubertal desex, which
was being done at 6-MO in the 1950s & '60s, & clear into the present.
.
.
.


----------



## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> As you were the first one to call ME selfish and yet everyone seems to have jumped on me for using the word im sorry I wont be reading a post or links you quote. I apologised. Could you not be grown up enough to do the same???


Maybe the jumping on is because you called 'people who don't neuter their dogs' selfish. So a big group of people which includes people & circumstances you do not know about. (Me being one). Where as you've explained yourself & people were able to come to the conclusion (from what you've said) that in those circumstances you are exhibiting selfish behaviour.. Yet I think we know your not a selfish person in general & I don't think anyone has said that you are.
Yet if you'd of said 'people are selfish not neutering as their dog is doing [unwanted behaviour which stems from hormones and behavioural training would not help] & [reason why neutering would benefit dog & life of dog]' etc then maybe you wouldn't of got the same reaction. Just a thought


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I ummd and arrd over neutering but did it in the end, basically because he was very humpy with my parents females and even growled once when trying to remove him. He also had started to hump my step daughter occasionally. I expected no change in behaviour in any other way and there has been none. The only change is he doesn't hump.
That was my decision and my reasons for it and it worked. The health reasons there seemed to be pro's and con's for either way.

I do believe it's down to the dog and owner if they want or need to neuter males.

Also yes he did have GA!!! Of course!


----------



## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> Both the USA's AVMA / Am Med-Vet Assoc, & Australia's corresponding Small-Animal Vets' Assoc,
> _*as well as Britain's / the UK's Veterinary Association, *_have all concluded, based on many years
> of data, that desexing healthy pups & kittens is very safe.


Actually the BVA itself says:



> BVA believes that there is no current scientific evidence to support the view that the spaying of bitches should take place after the first season. *However, at the current time there is insufficient scientific data available to form a position on the early neutering of dogs and bitches.*


Taken from their page on neutering cats and dogs here.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2015)

silvi said:


> Just as an aside, but because I was the one who mentioned this particular concern. When our Saluki had a GA for damage to his foot, his heart stopped. Luckily they were able to bring him round and he was fine, but it was obviously of concern to our vet (and it has been a concern incidentally for other Saluki owners).
> Our Saluki died suddenly late last year at the age of 11. It was probably his heart - he died in his sleep after being perfectly well - but we didn't get a PM done to check it out. His brother and litter mate also died suddenly almost the same month.
> Leo had well over 11 good years with us and we are very grateful for that. Had he been subject to a second GA (this time for for castration), we think his chances of achieving those 11 years would have been very slim indeed.


Sighthounds are notoriously delicate when it comes to GA. I think with new drugs and techniques the odds are better, but I would never take putting a sighthound under GA lightly. I think it's very clear that you did the right thing by your dog


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2015)

SingingWhippet said:


> Actually the BVA itself says:
> 
> Taken from their page on neutering cats and dogs here.


I'm not going to trawl through the links, but the last time I looked, those studies are on the safety of the procedure itself, not long-term studies on the dog's long-term health. 
I have two human children going through puberty right now (prayers, mojo, and voodoo well-wishes accepted), and it just makes zero sense to me that their sex hormones are not necessary to normal growth and development.

When we discussed Breez's spay with my vet - who is very well respected and well-researched, I was the one who wanted her done sooner rather than later. I did not want her to have a heat at all, yes, selfishly. I didn't want to deal with it, the hormones, and most importantly the added interest of the local feral dog population and coyotes. Not that I couldn't have dealt with all that, we would have, and it probably would have involved Breez going to stay with a friend who lives less rurally for the duration. However, it was just a headache I didn't want to deal with.

Anyway, my vet was adamant about not spaying her any earlier than necessary. I wanted to go for 9 months, she wanted me to wait at least a year. In fact she told me that if she went in to heat before 9 months she would board her herself and pay for the spay. It was that important to her that I not spay my giant breed too early. Now why would she say that if early spays were not an issue?


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> * the average USA nationwide compliance rate with desex contracts re adopted pets from shelters or
> rescues is only 40%; the other 60% are intact, to churn out yet more unplanned or unwanted or surplus
> offspring. That's WITH a contract that allows the pet to be confiscated, or for fines, jail time, etc.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the benefits of neutering male dogs.
But, in any case, the above point is open to question.

Of those 60% dogs who remain intact, do you have figures to show that the majority of them were used 'to churn out more unplanned or unwanted or surplus offspring'?
Because (and I admit this is only a guess), I would bet that you would find that a major proportion of that 60% did not go on to breed.

Many pet owners who chose not to have their dog neutered usually have good reason for making this decision. With more information available, many of those owners will have chosen not to neuter with the health of their pet in mind.
That being the case, they will also usually be responsible dog owners who do not allow their pet to breed.
They just want the best _health option_ for their pet.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Colette -
*emphasis added in bold*:
...
Did you not notice the list of health risks associated with castration, particularly of young males (before maturity)?

Seriously, do some research, read the studies that show *a significant increase in CRIPPLING, PAINFUL DISORDERS
like Hip Dysplasia, cruciate rupture, bone cancer, [etc],* and then tell me what's so selfish about leaving a large breed,
prone to the above diseases, [male] dog entire as long as possible?
...
.
.
I'm going to presume that U base those statements on the oft-quoted paper by DVM Zinks -
"long-term considerations [re S/N of] the K9 athlete" -
which unfortunately is NOT a published article from a peer-reviewed journal, but is a written version
of a speech. It wouldn't have made it thru the vetting process by a journal, b/c Dr Zinks draws erron-
eous conclusions that aren't warranted by the data, takes data in another study that doesn't include
age-of-desex & inserts? / assumes? the age she thinks is correct, & otherwise manipulates data.
.
Here is an instance by instance rebuttal of her errors:
PART ONE -
*Rebuttal to "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete" *
Lisa M. Howe, DVM, PhD, Dipl. ACVS
Associate Professor, Small Animal Surgery Co-Chief Surgical Sciences Section Dept. of Veterinary Small Animal Clinical Sciences 
College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences Texas A&M University; College Station, TX, 77843

I have written a rebuttal to Dr. Zink's article entitled "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete"
in which Dr. Zink attempts to make an argument for revisiting the "standard protocol in which all dogs that are
not intended for breeding are spayed and neutered at or before 6 months of age." 
In the discussion, Dr. Zink quotes manuscripts incorrectly in some instances, doesn't present _all_ of the data
from given studies (i-e, misrepresenting findings of the studies) in other instances, & doesn't include the inter-
pretation of the data by the study's authors, leading to erroneous interpretations of some data by Dr. Zink, in
yet other instances. 
While I typically don't write rebuttals to others' writings or opinions (after all, we are all entitled to our opinions),
the multiple errors & misrepresentations of scientific literature quoted in this dissertation compelled me to "set
the record straight" with regard to the literature being incorrectly cited by Dr. Zink. 
While I respectfully disagree with Dr. Zink's opinion on the appropriate age at which to spay and castrate dogs
not intended for breeding, my primary purpose for this rebuttal is to present the literature that Dr. Zink cites in
a more accurate & more complete fashion, so that the veterinarian reader may reach their own conclusions re-
garding the most apropos time to spay or castrate the nonbreeding animal, _based on accurate representation
of the scientific literature._

*Orthopedic Considerations*
Dr. Zink points out correctly that in Salmeri's 15-month study, examining effects of prepubertal gonadectomy
on skeletal growth, weight gain, food intake, body fat, & secondary sex characteristics in 32 mixed-breed dogs
neutered at 7-WO, 7-MO, or left intact, that bitches spayed at 7-WO grew significantly taller than those spayed
at 7-MO, & that those spayed at 7-MO had significantly-delayed closure of the growth plates, but didn't grow
significantly taller, than those not spayed (Salmeri, 1991). 
However, the concerns expressed by Dr. Zinc regarding changes in stifle joint angles are not supported by any
existing literature, & don't make sense as an argument against 'early age' gonadectomy (i-e, desex well before
6-MO). Since the animal that is desexed early will not have likely had closure of any of the hind limb long bone
physes, it stands to reason that closure of *all* of the physes will be delayed, resulting in longer, but proportional,
bone growth as related to the stifle joint.
In fact, Salmeri's study did not identify any changes in the proportional nature of bone growth of the forelimb
(she was studying growth & maturation of the radius & ulna).
It seems Dr. Zink may be arguing against desex during the time period between 7 or 8-MO & final closure of all
the growth plates, which is irrelevant to a discussion of 'early age' gonadectomy.

Dr. Zink's speculation re joint angles cannot be applied to, & isn't discussed in, the article cited re increased in-
cidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in gonadectomized dogs. There is no information in the article 
(Cooley, 2002) as to the timing of gonadectomy in the study population; there is no way of knowing if animals
were spayed/castrated as adults, at the 'traditional age' (i-e, puberty), or at an 'early age', & it is, therefore, not
appropriate for Dr. Zinc to be applying this theory to that article.
In fact, in the article, bone lengths & joint angles are never mentioned, & the authors speculate their findings
may be attributable to: "alterations in sex hormones may affect the size, shape, or material properties of the
ACL." 
Re *hip dysplasia*, long-term studies have examined the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs & the association
with age at desex, and Dr. Zink quotes one of them. The study of 1,842 dogs found that early age desex was
associated with a significant increased-incidence of hip dysplasia (Spain, 2004).
Puppies that underwent desex before 5.5-MO had a 6.7% incidence of hip dysplasia, while those undergoing
desex at the more traditional age (puberty) had an incidence of 4.7%.
However, Dr. Zink fails to note the additional finding of that study, which included finding that those dogs that
were desexed at the traditional age were _three times more likely to be euthanized_ for the condition, compared
to the early-age group, leading the authors to suggest that early-age desex may be associated with a less se-
vere form of hip dysplasia.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

And here we go again


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Continuing, *"Rebuttal..." * Part Two:

*Other Health Considerations*
Dr. Zink mentions other health considerations that should be considered when deciding whether a ca-
nine athlete should undergo desex at, or before, 6-MO. Dr. Zink states: 'A number of studies have
shown an increased incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early', & gives one refer-
ence for this (Stocklin-Gautschi, 2001). Indeed, several studies demonstrated increased incidence of
urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early, as well as a study that demonstrated much higher incidence
of urinary incontinence (20.1%) in bitches spayed _after_ the first estrus, vs those spayed before the first
estrus (Arnold, 1992).
In fact, in the reference (Stocklin-Gautschi, 2001) that Dr. Zink quotes, the authors interpret the findings
of their study re similarly-performed studies, & then state: "Comparison of the present results with those
of Arnold, et al. (1992) indicates risk of urinary incontinence is _lower_ in early-spayed bitches vs bitches
spayed after the first oestrus, but clinical signs of affected animals are significantly more pronounced." 
The authors continue: "However, assuming that most incontinent bitches respond well to medication,
this factor is of minor importance. _This relative disadvantage of early spaying is negligible when com-_
_pared with the benefits, such as lower incidence of urinary incontinence & protection from mammary _
_tumours_."
On the other hand, a recent study of 1,842 dogs by Spain, et al, demonstrated there _was_ an increased
incidence of urinary incontince in females, that risk being greatest in females desexed before 3-MO,
vs those desexed at, or after, 3-MO (Spain, 2004).
Based on their findings, Spain concludes: "Because urinary incontinence was greater among puppies
desexed before 3-MO & incontinence can be a lifelong condition requiring ongoing treatment, it's reas-
onable to conclude that female dogs should not be desexed until at least 3 to 4-MO." The authors con-
tinue: "This may be particularly prudent for shelters that do not have an excess of pups, & focus on
reducing medical & behavior conditions that could lead to relinquishment of adolescent & adult dogs.
Conversely, for shelters with excess pups, advantages of desex of all dogs before adoption may out-
weigh the risk of urinary incontinence."
Dr. Zink also points out neutering of male dogs was associated with an increased likelihood of urethral
sphincter incontinence (Aaron, 1996) & seems to imply early-neutering plays a role in this. However,
when one examines Aaron's paper, it is obvious that dogs that developed urethral sphincter incompe-
tency following castration were _adult _dogs when castrated; the median age of onset of urinary inconti-
inence was 6-YO (range 6-MO to 10.5-YO), & the median period between castration & onset of incon-
tinence being 10 days (range "immediate" to 18 mos post-desex). 
Clearly, this paper should not be quoted as an argument against early neutering (or late neutering, for
that matter) in male dogs. Urethral sphincter incompetency is quite uncommon in male dogs, & likely
to be multifactorial, considering male dogs don't tend to respond well to hormonal replacement 
(Aaron, 1996).
When one considers the incidence of prostatic hyperplasia, cysts, & abscesses in older male dogs
(much-higher than urethral sphincter incompentency), & the potential life-threatening nature of some
of these problems, the role for castration in preventive health care for male dogs becomes obvious.

Hypothyroidism is cited as another health reason to avoid early gonadectomy.
Dr. Zink is correct that both the cited references ( HYPERLINK http://www.grca.org/healthsurvey.pdf
& Panciera, 1994) do demonstrate hypothyroidism occurs more commonly in desexed dogs, including 
he Golden Retriever breed, than intact dogs. While there is an association, overall incidence of hypo-
thyroidism is 0.2% in canines (Panciera, 1994 - although it may be higher in certain breeds such as
the Golden Retriever & Doberman Pinscher).
It would not be prudent to discourage desex of dogs, early or not, to prevent a disease with such low
incidence with a good response to treatment in most dogs (Panciera, 1994), when other diseases have
much higher incidences (mammary neoplasia, pyometra, prostatic hyperplasia, etc.) and may not have
as favorable an outcome.

Infectious diseases are cited as another reason to avoid early desex.
While Dr. Zink does correctly state findings of the cited reference, that infectious diseases were more
common in dogs desexed at 24-WO or less vs those undergoing desex at over 24-WO (Howe, 2001),
Dr. Zink fails to point out the conclusions of the author re this issue. Howe notes that: "Parvoviral en-
teritis was the most-commonly reported infectious disease, & reported exclusively in those desexed
before puberty. Parvovirus is common in pups from shelter environs, but uncommon in older dogs.
_The potential influence of anesthesia & surgery on incidence of parvoviral enteritis in pups who were_
_desexed could not be determined in our study; (there were no) comparisons with pups (left intact)_."
Spain's study of 1,842 dogs also found that dogs desexed before 5.5-MO had a significantly greater
incidence of P.enteritis (vs those desexed later), but said: "In that study (Howe, 2001), as with ours,
however, the increased rate of Parvovirus infection probably represents increased susceptibility of
dogs < 6-MO during the periadoption period, not long-term immune suppression or susceptibility as
a result of early-age desex." (Spain, 2004).

Interestingly, Dr. Zink did not address one of the major health concerns of the unspayed bitch which
is pyometra, a potentially life-threatening condition. Pyometra occurs at a very high rate in unspayed
bitches, & incidence was reported to approach 66% in bitches over 9-YO (Johnston, 2001).
Unlike the USA, in Scandinavian countries, female dogs are at risk of developing pyometra as elec-
tive neutering of healthy bitches is seldom performed, resulting in only 7% of bitches being spayed
(Egenvall, 1999). A recent study in Sweden conducted to assess incidence of pyometra in bitches
used data from a Swedish pet-insurance company, & found that overall, almost 25% of the insured
dog population had developed pyometra by 10-YO. In the 3 breeds at highest risk of Pyo (Rough 
Collie, Rottweiler, Bernese Mountain Dog), approximately 50% of bitches experienced pyometra
before reaching 10-YO (Hagman, 2004). Pyo can be life-threatening & expensive to treat; it occurs
with far-greater frequency than rupture of CCL or cardiac tumors, & is easily prevented by OHE.

In sum, while I respectfully disagree with Dr. Zink as to the most-apropos time to desex an animal
that is not used for breeding purposes, it is important for any veterinarian to base their decisions
upon a well-versed understanding of the scientific literature
As new studies are performed, & our knowledge base grows as to the effects, both good & bad, of
sterilization of pet animals (including 'early age' desex), current recommendations may or may not
be changed.
Re the canine athlete, I would encourage those who feel they see certain problems more frequently
in animals that undergo early-age desex, vs traditional-age desex, to collect & analyze data & con-
tribute information to the scientific literature. Until studies are performed, anecdotal information re-
mains just that - anecdotal, unverified, & unsuitable for making broad sweeping recommendations
re the appropriateness of desex (any age) of animals that are not used for breeding purposes, or
to make recommendations re tubal ligation/ vasectomy, which clearly don't have the same health
benefits as gonadectomy.
*References below.*
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
PART 3:
.
*References:*
Aaron A, Eggleton K, Power C, Holt PE.
Urethral sphincter mechanism incompetence in male dogs: a retrospective
analysis of 54 cases. Vet Rec. 139:542-6, 1996

Arnold S, Arnold P, Hubler M, et al.
Urinary incontinence in spayed bitches: prevalence & breed predisposition.
Eur J Companion Anim Pract 2:65-68, 1992

Barsanti J.
Diseases of the prostate gland. In: Morgan, ed. Handbk of Small Animal Practice, 4th ed. p. 577

Bell FW, Klausner JS, Hayden DW, et al.
Clinical & pathologic features of prostatic adenocarcinoma in sexually-intact & castrated dogs:
31 cases (1970-1987). J Am Vet Med Assoc 199:1623-1630, 1991

Berry SJ, Coffey DS, Strandberg JD, et al.
Effect of age, castration & testosterone replacement on development & restoration of canine benign
hyperplasia. Prostate 9:295, 1986

Berry SJ, Strandberg JD, Saunders WJ, et al.
Development of canine benign prostatic hyperplasia with age. Prostate 9:363, 1986

Black GM, Ling GV, Nyland TC, et al.
Prevalence of prostatic cysts in adult, large-breed dogs. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 34:177, 199

Brodey RS, Goldschmidt MA, Roszel JR.
Canine mammary gland neoplasms. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 19:61-90, 1983

Cohen Sm, Werrmann JG, Rasmusson GH, et al.
Comparison of the effects of new specific azasteroid inhibitors of steroid 5-alpha-reductase on 
canine hyperplastic prostate: suppression of prostatic DHT correlated with prostate regression.
Prostate 26:55, 1995

Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D;
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40

Cowan LA, Barsanti JA, Crowell WA, et al.
Effects of castration on chronic bacterial prostatitis in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 199:346, 1991

Egenvall, A., Hedhammar, Å., Bonnett, et al
Survey of the Swedish dog population: age, gender, breed, location & enrolment in animal insurance.
_Acta veterinaria scandinavica _40, 231-240, 1999

Gilbertson SR, Kurzman ID, Zachrau RE, et al.
Canine mammary epithelial neoplasms: Biological implications of morphologic characteristics 
assessed in 232 dogs. Vet Pathol 20:127-142, 1983.

Hagman R.
New Aspects of Canine Pyometra: Studies on Epidemiology & Pathogenesis.
Doctoral thesis; Swedish Univ of Agricultural Sciences

Uppsala 2004. http://diss-epsilon.slu.se/archive/00000736/01/Avhandlingsramen_för_närpublikation_R.Hagman.pdf

Hardie EM, Barsanti JA, Rawlings CA.
Complications of prostatic surgery. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 20:50, 1984

Hart BL.
Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs.
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6.

Howe LM, Slater MR, Boothe HW, Hobson HP, Holcom JL, Spann AC.
Long-term outcome of gonadectomy performed at an early age or traditional age in dogs.
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jan 15;218(2):217-21.

http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/Biennial_National_Parent_Club_Canine_Health_Conference.pdf

http://www.grca.org/healthsurvey.pdf

Johnston SD, Kustritz MVR, Olson PNS.
In: Canine & Feline Theriogenology. WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia, PA, 2001, p.207

Krawiec DR, Heflin D.
Study of prostatic disease in dogs 177 cases (1981-1986). J Am Vet Med Assoc 200:1119-1122, 1992

MacEwan EG, Withrow SJ.
Small Animal Clinical Oncology. 2nd edition. WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia, PA, 1996, p.356.

Meuten DJ.
Tumors in Domestic Animals. 4th Edn. Iowa State Press, Blackwell Publishing Company, Ames, Iowa, p. 575

Mullen HS, Matthiesen DT, Scavelli TD.
Results of surgery & postoperative complications in 92 dogs treated for prostatic abscessation
by a multiple Penrose drain technique. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 26:369, 1990

Obradovich J, Walshaw R, Goullaud E.
The influence of castration on the development of prostatic carcinoma in the dog. 43 cases (1978-1985). 
J Vet Intern Med 1987 Oct-Dec;1(4):183-7

Panciera DL.
Hypothyroidism in dogs: 66 cases (1987-1992). J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc., 204:761-7 1994

Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT.
Host-related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Vet J. 1998 Jul;156(1):31-9.

Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille V
Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, & behavioral development. JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203

Schneider R, Dorn CR, Taylor DON.
Factors influencing canine mammary cancer development & postsurgical survival. J Natl Cancer Inst 43:1249-1261, 1969

Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM.
Canine ovariohysterectomy & orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury.
Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5.

Spain CV, Scarlett JM, Houpt KA.
Long-term risks & benefits of early-age gonadectomy in dogs. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387.

Stocklin-Gautschi NM, Hassig M, Reichler IM, Hubler M, Arnold S.
The relationship of urinary incontinence to early spaying in bitches. J. Reprod. Fertil. Suppl. 57:233-6, 2001

Ware WA, Hopper DL.
Cardiac tumors in dogs: 1982-1995. J Vet Intern Med 1999 Mar-Apr;13(2):95-10

White RAS, Herrtage ME, Dennis R.
The diagnosis & management of paraprostatic & prostatic retention cysts in the dog. J Small Anim Pract 28:551, 1987

White RA, Williams JM.
Intracapsular prostatic omentalization: a new technique for Mgmt of prostatic abscesses in dogs. Vet Surg 24:390, 1995


----------



## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Perhaps you should be looking at "In utero" neutering, get the little rascals before they're born....

Very fetching text colour though it has to be said


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I do think you as an individual are being selfish in thinking your only responsibility is to put your in season bitch on a lead and carry on regardless. I'm not going to apologise for what I think? You made the comments that you think all dogs should be neutered and that from reading this forum you think male dog owners aren't responsible? You made the statement about all those who don't neuter being selfish?


I said twice that my only responsibility was not to just put her on a lead and yet you wont accept that. You are being nasty and argumentative for the sake. You have ignore the fact on 2 occasions i said i dont just think putting her on a lead is the be all and end all and carried on! The only person on this entire thread that has been rude and at least not admitted their mistake is yourself.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Silvi:
...
Many pet owners who chose not to have their dog neutered usually have good reason for making this decision.
With more information available, many of those owners will have *chosen not to neuter* with the health of their
pet in mind.
...
.
.
Then it's very simple:
those owners who "choose not to neuter", for whatever reason, cannot legally adopt from
the shelters & rescues that require desex -- virtually 100% of all USA shelters & rescues.
.
As i said, practically every shelter & rescue in the USA desexes their pets BEFORE they
are released for adoption; ergo, most adopters don't get to "choose" to desex or not.
It's a done deal.
.
The very-few remaining shelters or rescues who do NOT desex pre-emptively, who are
fewer every year, have a desex contract - most if not all retain the right to confiscate the
pet that remains intact after X period of time, or after X age.
Quite a few include the terms of the local consequences for whatever misdemeanor it falls
under - a fine, 30-days in jail, whatever.
.
So owners who "choose not to desex" for whatever reason can buy a dog or pup from a
breeder, re-home an intact dog via an ad, take an intact stray from the street themselves
before the ACO's truck picks them up, or perhaps steal an intact dog to suit their purposes.
[If they are willing to lie by signing a contract they intend to flout, then stealing shouldn't be
much of a hurdle for their weak to nonexistent scruples.]
.
SIGNING * A * CONTRACT that they have no intention of fulfilling is fraud, & can be prose-
cuted separately from their violation of said contract. Lying is never an acceptable thing;
even in those instances when we lie to "protect someone's feelings", it generally does not
work out well in the long run.
.
.
.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> I said twice that my only responsibility was not to just put her on a lead and yet you wont accept that. You are being nasty and argumentative for the sake. You have ignore the fact on 2 occasions i said i dont just think putting her on a lead is the be all and end all and carried on! The only person on this entire thread that has been rude and at least not admitted their mistake is yourself.


Rude, nasty and argumentive? Here's a thing I am not known for farting rainbows and being all fluffy. If you think bitch spray and a "nappy" is going to make the slightest bit of difference again you are mistaken.. You made your feelings clear that if you walked your in season bitch on a campsite and she was approached by a entire dog you wouldn't be happy, that is selfish behaviour! I have a dog who doesn't react to in season bitches so me and my entire male couldn't care less, but you seem so intent on being able to do as you please and totally ignore the fact it is not just entire dogs who react to the smell! You might think I am nasty and argumentative your problem not mine. Your bitch will be upset just as much by a neutered dog pestering her, or trying to mount her same risk of serious injury more so given you bitch is so small, if a neutered dog ties! There is an ignore button if you think I am nasty and rude feel free to use it.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Silvi:
> ...
> Many pet owners who chose not to have their dog neutered usually have good reason for making this decision.
> With more information available, many of those owners will have *chosen not to neuter* with the health of their
> ...


I won't bother to paste the rest of the quote, the large purple print makes the page too long.

a) I live in the UK; b) However many articles you paste on here, I will still disagree with your argument (after all, you are only posting articles to promote your point of view); and c) I'm not into 'debate by who can post the most articles'.
Nothing else to say really.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

silvi said:


> I won't bother to paste the rest of the quote, the large purple print makes the page too long.
> 
> a) I live in the UK; b) However many articles you paste on here, I will still disagree with your argument (after all, you are only posting articles to promote your point of view); and c) I'm not into 'debate by who can post the most articles'.
> Nothing else to say really.


Wish I could rep you


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> I'm going to presume that U base those statements on the oft-quoted paper by DVM Zinks -
> "long-term considerations [re S/N of] the K9 athlete" -
> which unfortunately is NOT a published article from a peer-reviewed journal, but is a written version
> ...





StormyThai said:


> And here we go again [


Yep - sigh - here we go again.

Terry, you and I have disagreed over this issue on many threads, and I don't propose to resurrect all thiose arguments now. But given that this forum is dipped into by many, I can't let your insistance that neutering, epecially at a young age, is beneficial. For every research study you reference I can reference one that says the complete opposite - such as this one http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf which says:

*Orthopedic Disorders *
_In a study of beagles, surgical removal of the ovaries (as happens in spaying) caused an increase in the rateof remodeling of the ilium (pelvic bone) 48, s*uggesting an increased risk of hip dysplasia with spaying.Spaying was also found to cause a net loss of bone mass in the spine* 49
_
*Spay/neuter of immature dogs delays the closure of the growth plates in bones that are still growing, causing those bones to end up significantly longerthan in intact dogs or those spay/neutered after maturity 50 . Since the growth plates in various bones close at different times, spay/neuter that is done after some growth plates have closed but before other growth plates have closed might result in a dog with unnatural proportions, possibly impacting performance and long term durability of the joints. Spay/neuter is associated with a two fold increased*
_* risk of cranial cruciate ligament rupture 51. Perhaps this is associated with the increased risk of obesity 30 *

S*pay/neuter before 5 ½ months of age is associated with a 70% increased aged-adjusted risk of hip dysplasia compared to dogs spayed/neutered after 5½ months of age, though there were some indications that the former may have had a lower severity manifestation of the disease 42 * *The researchers suggest "it is possible that the increase in bone length that results from early-age gonadectomy results in changes injoint conformation, which could lead to a diagnosisof hip dysplasia." *_

and concludes:

C_ONCLUSIONS 
An objective reading of the veterinary medical literature reveals a complex situation with respect to the long-term health risks and benefits associated with spay/neuter in dogs. The evidence shows that spay/neutercorrelates with both positive AND adverse health effects in dogs. It also suggests how much we really do not yet understand about this subject*.On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future health problems, especially immature male dogs. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases*.

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. Th number of health benefits associated with spaying mayexceed the associated health problems in many (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

*The traditional spay/neuter age of six months as well as the modern practice of pediatric spay/neuter appear to predispose dogs to health risks that could otherwise be avoided by waiting until the dog is physically mature, or perhaps in the case of many male dogs, foregoing it altogether unless medically necessary.* The balance of long-term health risks and benefits of spay/neuter will vary from one dog to the next. Breed,age, and gender are variables that must be taken into consideration in conjunction with non-medical factors for each individual dog.* Across-the-board recommendations for all dogs do not appear to be supportable from findings in the veterinary medical literature*_

Given that last sentence Terry, don't you think it is irresponsible for you to be doing just that on an open forum?

Edited to say - the above paper references 55 scientific papers on the adverse affects of neutering and early neutering (and not one of them by your pet hate Zinks). I've not insulted everyone's intelligence by cutting and pasting all the links as if to somehow prove that the more links I post, the more credible my argument is.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Silvi:
...
Many pet-owners who chose not to have their dog neutered usually have good reason for making this decision.

With more info available, many of those owners *[choose] not to neuter with the health of their pet in mind.*
That being the case, *they will also usually be responsible dog-owners who do not allow their pet to breed.*
They just want the best _health option_ for their pet.
...
.
.
My, my, what a stunningly ethical, upright bunch of prigs U assume them to be.
.
What about the ones who always have $$ for a carton of cigarettes from the Border Station
[thus avoiding VA state tax], but can never seem to accrue the amount needed for their dog's
desex?... Or who are just too bl**dy lazy to make & keep an appt?
.
I met plenty of those in Va Beach & Norfolk! 
.
And these paragons must not be the yahoos who let their INTACT MALE DOGS run the beach,
mugging other dogs on & off leash, or RUN THE STREETS, p*ssing any & every where, sh*tting
wherever & the owner never picks up after them?...
They couldn't possibly be among the Elite who leave their male dogs intact only for the sake of
their beloved dogs' future health?!
.
How do we distinguish the unwashed yahoos with intact dogs, from the Elite with intact dogs,
who are vigilantly warding the health of their beloved canine charges?
.
.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Perhaps some of us should simply agree to disagree on the neuter debate. I don't care how many articles are posted or what they say, I am not going to be convinced that spaying and neutering are operations that have nothing but benefits. Especially early spay and neuter. I believe hormones are needed for far more than reproductive purposes and am not going to remove them before my dog has a chance to mature. If that meant I couldn't adopt from any shelters or rescues then so be it quite frankly.

I'm not anti spay/neuter, I am anti ridiculously early spay/neuter and the blanket "off with his balls!" attitude so many have towards entire males. If I saw a reason to neuter I'd do so. But not just because some believe it's the only way to be a responsible owner.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> How do we distinguish the unwashed yahoos with intact dogs, from the Elite with intact dogs,
> who are vigilantly warding the health of their beloved canine charges?.
> .


Well I think that someone needs to, as you certainly are not doing a very good job of it


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Science is the most contradictory biatch there is......for every article there is stating the positives of something you'll find another stating the negatives. So, yeah....

I think we have established that there are both pros and cons to spaying neutering. Personally I don't agree with 'desexing' (orrible word that!) of puppies/kittens ala the USA and hope such a practice never catches on here. I don't need droll scientific articles to tell me that removing the sex hormones when the animal is an infant could potentially be detrimental. 

I'm pro spay/neutering but only when the animal is of an appropriate age. Appropriate being the key word here.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Rude, nasty and argumentive? Here's a thing I am not known for farting rainbows and being all fluffy. If you think bitch spray and a "nappy" is going to make the slightest bit of difference again you are mistaken.. You made your feelings clear that if you walked your in season bitch on a campsite and she was approached by a entire dog you wouldn't be happy, that is selfish behaviour! I have a dog who doesn't react to in season bitches so me and my entire male couldn't care less, but you seem so intent on being able to do as you please and totally ignore the fact it is not just entire dogs who react to the smell! You might think I am nasty and argumentative your problem not mine. Your bitch will be upset just as much by a neutered dog pestering her, or trying to mount her same risk of serious injury more so given you bitch is so small, if a neutered dog ties! There is an ignore button if you think I am nasty and rude feel free to use it.


Oh deary me. I now think you are ignorant as well. You only seem to read what you want! Especially as I never said I was definitely taking her! So where you got 'so intent on being able to' Im not sure. I think you are so self assured you cant admit your faults. At least I can. I would rather be known as selfish by you than so blinded by my own self assurance that I am completely and utterly ignorant that I cant accept when im in the wrong or know when I need to accept an apology is needed. Just like I did. Thank you for telling ne about the ignore option, i cant think of a better person to use it on, I shall go hit it now.


----------



## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Silvi:
> ...
> Many pet-owners who chose not to have their dog neutered usually have good reason for making this decision.
> 
> ...


What is the connection between owners that let their dogs off lead to mug people/run the streets/pss and sht everywhere and being intact? cos last time I checked it wasn't just entire dogs that did those things but all dogs......or should I say all their stupid owners?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> Oh deary me. I now think you are ignorant as well. You only seem to read what you want! Especially as I never said I was definitely taking her! So where you got 'so intent on being able to' Im not sure. I think you are so self assured you cant admit your faults. At least I can. I would rather be known as selfish by you than so blinded by my own self assurance that I am completely and utterly ignorant that I cant accept when im in the wrong or know when I need to accept an apology is needed. Just like I did. Thank you for telling ne about the ignore option, i cant think of a better person to use it on, I shall go hit it now.


Please do  Bye


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LFL can I just ask you a question please? Have you ever owned a young dog, had it neutered young and then had to put it through numerous significant/painful orthopaedic operations? I know these conditions can and do also affect entire dogs but them coming so close together and so close to having Indie spayed at 6 months makes me very suspicious that they are connected. I asked our orthopaedic specialist and he said it was a "definite possibility". Do you have any idea how that makes me feel? 13 months old and both cruciates gone, both elbows abnormally developed with very little cartilage remaining and then a few months later luxating patella. I can't tell you how many times I lay down with her at night (I slept on the sofa next to her for every post op recovery period, 6 weeks at a time x5) and cried and told her how sorry I was. Of course we don't "know" that spaying at 6 months caused her problems but the fact that if "might" have is enough to make us feel so guilty and wonder why the rescue continue to insist on this policy despite me informing them about what happened with Indie.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Doggiedelight said:


> Oh deary me. I now think you are ignorant as well. You only seem to read what you want! Especially as I never said I was definitely taking her! So where you got 'so intent on being able to' Im not sure. I think you are so self assured you cant admit your faults. At least I can. I would rather be known as selfish by you than so blinded by my own self assurance that I am completely and utterly ignorant that I cant accept when im in the wrong or know when I need to accept an apology is needed. Just like I did. Thank you for telling ne about the ignore option, i cant think of a better person to use it on, I shall go hit it now.


With this whole campsite situation I can't quite fathom why you would want to take a bitch in season out to that kind of venue anyway to be honest unless you know 100% how she behaves when in season - bitches personalities can change and they can become reactive or aggressive due to the hormones; and nevermind inatct male dogs - many other bitches object to bitches in season which can cause aggression and fights


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Silvi, i posted just ONE article, broken into into 3rds because of PF-uk character limits.
I posted links to 3 others. I'm sorry U object to offering data to support a statement.
.
For myself, I don't accept any & all anecdotes as being sufficient proof of a claim, es-
pecially when their anecdotes directly contradict my personal experiences over years
with dogs.
I refer to the claim that shy / timid / fearful MALE dogs "get worse" after desex, which has
definitely not been my experience, as a trainer, as a shelter or rescue volunteer, or while
observing local dogs in my neighborhood.
.
I get to see dogs who are recent adoptees or rescues in foster as they change, over time.
I see them on intake, i often see them during their foster or shelter stay, & i may get to see
them once they are adopted, sometimes for years.
*Not one dog* of the many semi-feral / undersocialized / traumatized / whatever, fearful dogs
GOT WORSE after being desexed - & that's over the 40-years i've trained dogs, including
since switching to specialize in B-Mod in 1985.
.
As for the supposed link between ortho issues, increased cancer risks, etc, & desex, parti-
cularly pediatric or pre-pubertal / juvie desex, i live in New England, where practically every
pet-dog is desexed. By & large, only breeding dogs are intact, here.
Where's the massive case-load of dogs with cancers, crippled rears, & so on?
Why don't the local vets complain about the terrible survivorship of local adoptees, virtually
every one of them desexed as a pup?
*Why don't i see dogs on the street, or in the parks & on beaches, with mobility issues? -*
*Even dogs with problems have to go out to toilet. *Could it be because they don't exist?...
.
.

...


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Silvi, i posted just ONE article, broken into into 3rds because of PF-uk character limits.
> I posted links to 3 others. I'm sorry U object to offering data to support a statement.[/COLOR]


LFL, I apologise. It must be that your posts appeared so long that I thought you had posted more than one article. But i guess that is just down to the large text spreading your posts down my laptop screen and on to the next page.
.


> For myself, I don't accept any & all anecdotes as being sufficient proof of a claim, especially when their anecdotes directly contradict my personal experiences over years
> with dogs.
> I refer to the claim that shy / timid / fearful MALE dogs "get worse" after desex, which has
> definitely not been my experience, as a trainer, as a shelter or rescue volunteer, or while
> observing local dogs in my neighborhood.


But don't you see? Your experience and observations, as sound as they will seem to you, are no more valid than the experiences and observations of other dog owners posting on this thread.
One example of several on this thread: you will see @rottiepointerhouse has posted above, about her experience with Indie. She admits that she cannot be sure that early spaying has added to Indie's health problems, but the correlations she has made seem to her to be as valid as your observations of rescue dogs you have worked with.

This is a forum for pet lovers. If there are so many on here who think that early spaying/neutering is a health risk for their dogs, and others who have discovered that, for their dogs, it was a definite health risk. Why would you wish to deride all of their observations? They care about their pets. They don't just make their decisions based on a whim.
So I would say that their experience and observations are just as valid as yours.


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

You can't ask for peer reviewed evidence to support something, and say it's not valid without it, then use your own anecdotal experience to support something else!

ETA: I have to say, I find it quite hard to read the posts in large type with purple, they don't appear well on smaller devices and I have to admit I find myself scrolling past them, especially with the way they are punctuated. They don't make it easy for the reader.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> 
> *Why don't i see dogs on the street, or in the parks & on beaches, with mobility issues? -*
> ...


Come and hang out at the orthopaedic vets with us and you will see plenty.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Fluffster:

You can't ask for peer reviewed evidence to support something, and say it's not valid without it, 
then use your own anecdotal experience to support something else!
.
.
.
Piffle.
I demanded that someone post a link to an actual peer-reviewed journal article that *supports the*
*allegation* *that *FEAR worsens in MALE dogs post-desex. Many, many ppl have carelessly repeated
this myth for several years on PF-uk, & not one has offered a single shred of scientific evidence that
it's a fact.
.
No one has posted a study link supporting it, yet.
.
Meanwhile, i offered not one but FOUR sources of data on health effects & early-desex, or S/N in
general, including a footnoted article, & 3 links from different reputable sources - AVMA, ASPCA, &
others - each with multiple articles on a single source.
.
*I added my anecdotal observations TO the aforesaid concrete evidence. Now, i have Silvi*
*saying i'm wasting space by posting science data, & U claim i can't offer my own observa-*
*tions IN ADDITION TO actual studies.*
Let's see - i can't offer personal observation, & i can't post science links. What's left?... Oh, i know! -
Bulls*it! --- hmmm, rubbing pups' noses in their own pee or poop will teach them to toilet outside;
going up stairs or in & out doors BEFORE my dog will teach her or him to submit to me; eating be-
fore my dog will demonstrate my status & keep my dog respectful of me; my dog must never walk
ahead of me, as that undermines my pack-leader position.
.
That's the biggest pile of bulls*it i can stack - how am i doing? :--) Need some more?
.
.
.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Ok folks- hold on to your hats! Here comes a bombshell.
There are truths in *both* sides to every argument. (there are also some mistruths but that's another story)

If we were to talk about early spaying and neutering, these are namely:

1. In female dogs, the elimination of the risk of pyometra (the stands for spaying at a later age too)
- Consideration factor: The statistical risk of pyometra in a bitch's first year of life is very low.
2. The elimination of the risk of BPH (enlarged prostate).
- Consideration factor: The statistical risk of BPN is also very low in the animal's first year of life.
3. Some scientific evidence to support the idea that early spaying reduces the risk of mammary cancer. (UK based study)
- Consideration factor: Also some scientific evidence to suggest the reduced incidence of mammary cancer in spayed bitches (regardless of spay age) or at least, due to reduced hormones produced associated with reproduction and thus activity in the mammary glands, greater ability to contain mammary growths when/if they do occur.
4. Elimination of the risk of uterine tumours in female dogs (stands for spaying at later age).
5. Some scientific evidence to support the idea that reduced risk of ovarian cancers in spayed bitches
6. Some evidence to suggest that removing the ovaries (instead of partial spay) can decrease lifespan (case study example= rottweilers). 
7. Some scientific evidence to suggest that early spaying/neutering increases the risk of the development of Cushings Disease and some other disorders of the endocrine system (hypothyroidism).
Consideration/explanation points: 
-endocrine, glandular and hormonal systems are not fully developed before puberty.
- some endocrine diseases (such as autoimmune thyroiditis) are genetic in origin.
8. Some scientific evidence to suggest that spaying/neutering increases the risk of cardiac tumours.
9. Some scientific evidence to suggest that early spaying/neutering increases the risk of bone cancer (risk increased x4)
10. Some scientific evidence to suggest that early spaying/neutering increases the risk of abnormal bone growth and development.
11. Some scientific evidence to suggest higher rate of cranial cruciate ligament ruptures in spayed/neutered dogs. 
12. Some scientific evidence to link spaying females with increased incidence of urinary incontinence and increased incidence of urethral sphincter incontinence in neutered males. 
13. Elimination of the risk of unwanted litters from spayed/neutered dogs.
Consideration points: overbreeding of certain breeds, dogs with genetic conditions, rescue situation. 
14. Some scientific evidence to show that dogs/bitches spayed at an early age were more prone to hip dysplasia.
15. Some scientific evidence to suggest that castrating male dogs reduces aggression. 
Consideration factors: - testosterone lowers thresholds for aggression.
- evidence relates to inter-male aggression cases
- early neutering not stated to be helping in this way due to multiple waves of testosterone release (significant factor). 
* No consideration of environmental, individual factors for each case...*
16. Some scientific evidence to suggest that castrating male dogs can be detrimental when used for therapeutical purposes relating to behaviour (i.e. reducing unwanted behaviours/aggression). 
Consideration points:
- Testosterone can "boost confidence" and aids an individual's ability to cope with stressors. 
- Timing of castrate significant (during fear period particularly detrimental).
17. Some scientific evidence to suggest increased incidence of reactivity in females spayed between 5 and 10 months of age.
18. Some scientific evidence to suggest that female dogs ovariohysteretomized after 12 months of age presented no risk of increased aggression.
19. Elimination of the risk of testicular cancer 
Consideration points:
- Any age spay (not just early)
- Development of tumours said to affect 7% of entire males (some evidence)- cure rate of over 90% for this.
20. Increased risk of weight gain (obesity)
21. Some scientific evidence to suggest neutering/spaying increases risk of hemangiosarcoma

There are more, but frankly, I can't be bothered to keep typing. 
It's up to you to weigh up the risks and benefits.

I personally would hold off neutering or spaying a dog until they have surpassed sexual maturity. But that's me weighing the up evidence I see for both sides of the argument, for the benefit of my future dogs.

We all make our choices in what we weigh up to be of our dogs' best interests. Let's not judge or get aggressive with each-other (if you do, you'll leave me in an awful quandry as to whether to leave you with your testosterone or not!) .

p.s. please all be in awe of my beautifully colour coded list


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Lemmsy:

16. Some scientific evidence to suggest that castrating male dogs can be detrimental when used for therapeutic
purposes relating to behaviour (i.e. reducing unwanted behaviours/aggression). 
Consideration points:
- Testosterone can "boost confidence" and aids an individual's ability to cope with stressors. 
- Timing of castrate significant (during fear period particularly detrimental).
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
.
Lemmsy, can U post a link / links to such scientific evidence? I have yet to see any.
.
Also, what is the specific fear-period to which U refer? *Primary*, which varies by breed but is usually
around 10-WO, or *secondary, *which is often around 7 to 8-MO - post-puberty?
.
PERSONAL OBSERVATION:
I've seen many M-pups desexed around 10-WO because that's when their pre-approved adopters
applied for them, so that's when they were desexed - before departing the shelter or rescue. None
of them were returned for a sudden onset of fear-behaviors, post-desex.
Nothing i've seen indicates that testosterone is a primary source of confidence in puppies, & if it is,
why don't F pups show more fear behaviors than M pups, as they are obviously deficient in testos-
terone?
.
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE:
In all my reading of behavioral literature, on-line or in books, including the 3 volume tomes of the 
"Handbook" series of texts on dog behavior, i've never seen a footnote for any study alleging that
desex causes fear, undermines a pup's confidence, worsens behavioral symptoms of pre-existing
fears, or creates new fears. Ever.
Show me one, please. TIA.
.
.


----------



## Guest (Jul 29, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> And here we go again


Yikes! You weren't kidding were you? 

I live in the US. I've taken in rescues my entire adult life. No pound or shelter here will let you adopt an intact animal, that is true. I get where they're coming from and preventing pregnancies is a huge consideration, especially in overrun, overworked, understaffed community shelters and pounds that can't do home checks, and keep up with the dog after adoption, they're just trying to give the dog one last chance before the back room. If that means spay/neuter, fine, I get that.

Some breed rescues go by contract and careful vetting of homes and a rigorous home check/background check. I get that too.

If I choose to get a dog from a rescue, I understand that the choice most likely will entail me not having a say about neutering, and I accept that as do pretty much everyone I know in the dog world.

What I don't accept is that when there IS a choice, I as an owner am intelligent enough to weigh the pros and cons myself and decide for myself what is right for me, my situation, and most importantly, my individual dog.

I'm not convinced that for a dog in a responsible home, with responsible owners, who know how to properly manage an intact dog that automatically neutering/spaying that dog is the right thing to do.


----------



## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

Well this thread has become very aggressive and I am ducking out but before I do I would like to THANK Doggiedelight fot her APOLOGY for the selfish statement and just say in her defence that in her OP she did NOT say she was DEFINITELY taking her bitch to the camp site KNOWING she would be in season but that she MAY come into season while she is there and that she will probably LEAVE her with family


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> can U post a link / links to such scientific evidence? I have yet to see any.


There's none so blind as those who will not see.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Hi Terry 



leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Lemmsy:
> 
> 16. Some scientific evidence to suggest that castrating male dogs can be detrimental when used for therapeutic
> purposes relating to behaviour (i.e. reducing unwanted behaviours/aggression).
> ...





leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Lemmsy, can U post a link / links to such scientific evidence? I have yet to see any.



See below. This area, like others, needs more thorough investigation. The wisest way to approach the issue would obviously be on an individual basis. Making considerations for what would be in your dog's, as an individual (given temperament, environmental factors, genetics etc), best interests.

I also think that following points are crucial to the sensible interpretation of any scientific evidence (whether peer reviewed or otherwise) used to support either side of the discussion that is being had here. At this point, the discussion with counter proposals supported by scientific evidence, in favour of one side or the other, is somewhat futile, for the reasons below:

" Scientific studies are superior to tradition, intuition, and personal experience as a form of evidence. However, they have limitations which affect the applicability of the data and conclusions they generate to individual patients. The ideal study of the risks and benefits of neutering would involve *taking a large number of dogs of many breeds, dividing them into two identical groups, neutering one group but not the other, and then ensuring they live otherwise identical lives* and examining the differences between the neutered and intact groups. *No such study will ever be done for practical, scientific, and ethical reasons. *

Most of the studies which do examine the possible influence of neutering on health and disease are retrospective. *They examine animals that have already developed a condition of interest *and then look at whether more of the affected animals are neutered or intact than a control group of similar animals without the condition. *While this is useful information, it can be misleading for many reasons.* Groups studied in one location may be very different from pets in other areas, in terms of age, breed, and other risk factors, and *conclusions about the study group may not apply to pets in general. *

For example, a study of a small group of dogs of a single breed which has a high rate of a certain type of cancer might show neutered dogs more likely than intact dogs to have that cancer. But this might have nothing to do with the risks for a different breed which rarely gets that type of cancer. Or neutered pets studied in an affluent city may get more veterinary care, and better care in general, than intact dogs roaming loose in a rural area, so differences between the groups in some disease might be due to factors other than neutering.

A good scientific study will try to control for such factors and the authors will identify potential problems with their data. Whenever possible, I have tried to include such considerations in evaluating the evidence in this review, but it is often unclear what if any confounding factors might influence the results of a given study, so conclusions should ideally be based on multiple studies of large numbers of animals by different investigators in different places. It is this need for replication and the accumulation of data over time that leads to periodic re-evaluations of medical practices. Contrary to the impression often given by the media, this is not because science frequently makes radical and erratic changes of direction but because the process of deepening our understanding and modifying our practices accordingly is complex and never-ending. "

... and it continues. I don't wish to make this post any more hideously long than it already will be, so continue reading via the link below:
http://www.medhelp.org/user_journal...TRODUCTION-TO-EVIDENCE-BASED-MEDICAL-PRACTICE

In response to your question (though will require in-depth reading- not just abstracts):

1. Hopkins et. al. Castration of Adult Male Dogs: Effects on Roaming, Aggression, Urine Marking, and Mounting. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1976; 168: 1108-10. 
2. LeBoeuf, B.J.: Copulator and Aggressive Behavior in the Prepubertally Castrated Dog. Horm Behav, 1, (1970): 127-36. 
3. McDermott, C. Role of gonadal hormones in anxiety and fear memory formation and inhibition in male mice. Phsiol Behav. 2012. 105 (5). 1168-74 
4. Farhoody, P. Behavioral and Physical Effects of Spaying and Neutering Domestic Dogs. Smmary of findings detailed in Masters thesis submitted to and accepted by Hunter College in May 2010. 
5. Duffy, D. et al. Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs. Power Point presentation to the Third International Symposium on Non-surgical Contraceptive Methods for Pet Population Control.
6. Hart BC. Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age related cognitive impairment in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 July 1; 219 (1) 51-6. - See more at: http://www.angryvet.com/neutering-and-behavior/#sthash.jCgfiZ0R.dpuf




leashedForLife said:


> Also, what is the specific fear-period to which U refer? *Primary*, which varies by breed but is usually
> around 10-WO, or *secondary, *which is often around 7 to 8-MO - post-puberty?



Both have been discussed. Though greater attention to secondary, the onset for which can be from any time from 6-14 months. Remember different breeds AND INDIVIDUALS, DEVELOP AT DIFFERENT RATES.

Some breeds are slow maturing. Others are not.




leashedForLife said:


> PERSONAL OBSERVATION:
> I've seen many M-pups desexed around 10-WO because that's when their pre-approved adopters
> applied for them, so that's when they were desexed - before departing the shelter or rescue. None
> of them were returned for a sudden onset of fear-behaviors, post-desex.
> ...


None of them were returned.

That does not mean that they did not experience a sudden onset of fear related behaviours, whether immediately after, or at other points in their development.

Also please note- the point you highlighted in my post did not point to a correlation between early neutering and a sudden onset of fear related behaviours. Re-read it:

"Some scientific evidence to suggest that castrating male dogs can be detrimental *when used for therapeutic*
*purposes relating to behaviour* (i.e. reducing unwanted behaviours/aggression)."

The dogs had were already presenting fearful or otherwise behaviours (whether this had developed over time or was a genetic predisposition we do not know). Castration was proposed to reduce this behaviour and was to prove detrimental. Taking away testosterone when they needed it most, presumably.




leashedForLife said:


> SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE:
> In all my reading of behavioral literature, on-line or in books, including the 3 volume tomes of the
> "Handbook" series of texts on dog behavior, *i've never seen a footnote for any study alleging that*
> *desex causes fear*, undermines a pup's confidence, worsens behavioral symptoms of pre-existing
> ...


Again, we have to take care with words here. No mention of causing fear. Causing fear or creating new fears is quite different to being detrimental to the purpose of behaviour therapy.

And even with that... so many factors (genetic, environmental, developmental) are neglected.

Discussion of 'scientific evidence', even peer reviewed papers, soon becomes very unscientific. There needs to be a new approach.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Already linked but:

The English Cocker Spaniel: preliminary findings on aggressive behaviour - Applied Animal Behaviour Science 47 (1996)



> When comparing ECSs which had been neutered before signs of aggression were apparent, with entires, neutered females were found more likely to show aggression towards children in the household





> Neutered males were found to be significantly more aggressive than entire males in situations A5 (towards children in the household)


Behavioural effects of ovario-hysterectomy on bitches - Small Animal Clinic, Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies 1990


> On two of these factors, 'indiscriminate appetite' and 'dominance aggression towards family members', the scores of the spayed bitches showed a significant increase compared with their controls.


Effects of ovariohysterectomy on reactivity in German Shepherd dogs - The Veterinary Journal 172 (2006)


> Dogs in the ovariohysterectomized group showed more reactivity, and median reactivity scores were higher in the ovariohysterectomy group compared with those of the sexually intact group. Ovariohysterectomy of 5-10 month old German Shepherd bitches specifically, and perhaps bitches of any breed generally, may induce an increase in reactivity.


5 minutes search on your favorite search engine.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> Meanwhile, i offered not one but FOUR sources of data on health effects & early-desex, or S/N in
> general, including a footnoted article, & 3 links from different reputable sources - AVMA, ASPCA, &
> others - each with multiple articles on a single source.
> .
> ...


No. What you got was me saying that I thought you had posted more data than you had, because the size of the print you use takes up so much of my screen. That's not saying you are wasting space with data - it's saying that the data would have been easier for me to read if it had not been so spread out and in such large print.

You then added your own observations. Fair enough - we all tend to do that. But at the same time, you criticised others for doing the same thing. Sounds a little confused to me.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Silvi: 
...
You then added your own observations. Fair enough - we all tend to do that. 
But at the same time, *you criticised others for doing the same thing. * Sounds a little confused to me.
.
.
Nope.
I criticized others for *offering nothing but anecdotes - often second-hand or pure blanket*
*statements, with no studies, no data, & zero hard evidence of same. *Offering my own ob-
servations IN ADDITION TO solid data is not "the same thing".
.
So far, the only person who has offered any science links whatever is Lemmsy. Looking at the
titles of the papers, i see none that provide evidence for "desexing fearful MALE dogs makes
their fears WORSE".
.
I personally worked with dozens of dogs & pups who ARRIVED with pre-existing major fears,
several of whom i've extensively described on PF-uk. Try searching for DAKOTA, a semi-feral
dog who arrived at about 15-MO with PACC, with a history of active abuse & serious neglect.
He was a genuine basket-case, & just like all the others, he arrived intact, & was desexed with-
in 2 to 3-weeks of arrival; sometimes the intakes were desexed within 3 to 5 days.
.
Why is it that none of these pathetic train-wrecks "got worse" - which should have been virtually
inevitable, according to this myth that says 'removing testes destroys a dog's confidence'?
Or "fearful MALE dogs get worse when they are neutered"?
It seems truly remarkable that dozens of spooky dogs, all breeds & mixes, were "special".
.
Maybe dogs in Virginia, USA, are immune - it's something in the water, LOL. Yeah, right.
::EyeRoll:: I simply can't credit that every one of these dogs was an EXCEPTION to this
so-called "rule". Occam's razor says it's more likely that the 'rule' is a crock.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
BTW, re this -
QUOTE,
"Some scientific evidence [suggests] that castrating male dogs can be detrimental *when used*
*for therapeutic* *purposes relating to behaviour* (i-e, reducing unwanted behaviours/ aggression)."
.
Funny, that.
I have suggested to clients that they desex their M-dogs for precisely those reasons - chronic leg-
lifting indoors - often when the dog SAW another M dog cock a leg outside the window;, M-M aggro
or M-M reactive; snarking or scuffling with other dogs; fence-fighting with the dog next door; etc -
NOT AS A MAJICK BULLET, but as a leg-up on B-Mod to make the B-Mod easier to accomplish
for the owners.
.
Quite a few PACC dogs were specifically fear-aggro: they wouldn't bite unless they felt trapped or
couldn't flee, such as on the vet's table or at the groomer's. Then they'd bite. Desex didn't make them
"worse". B-Mod was successful, in spite of the loss of their testes; we reduced or completely elimin-
ated the defensive aggro, unless the dog was actually HURT - pain is a valid reason for a bite.
They were desexed before being listed as adoptable; i worked with them while they were in foster
care, & in some cases, continued to work with the dog & their adopters.
Not necessarily because of their former issue - often it was to develop a new routine or teach new
behaviors, or because circs changed [a pregnancy, a new cat, another dog...].
IOW, i saw these dogs not for a month or so, but for months on end, & sometimes as neighbors, for
years. I knew them well.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Bl**dy dam* software did it again - strike-thru text. >:-(
.
.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> In Hungary male dogs are rarely neutered and most vets don't advise spaying bitches until they've had at least two seasons. I had the only two girls in the village, the other 18 being intact males. When they had their first season* the only dog that "came a wooing" was the oldest most decrepit male in the village. *The poor old chap was so arthritic he could barely hobble let alone do anything else, apart from howling every time he saw my girls! I often wonder, being the village elder whether he was trying to claim his "droit de seigneur"? By the time mine had their second season he'd died of old age and as none of the other male dogs seemed interested, my girls virginity remained intact!


Funny you should say that - when our first staffie bitch had her season, she had a number of admirers - but the most persistent was a small black mongrel (pretty much a generic "dog") that belonged to an equally old man who lived in the next street. This dog was really just a bag made out of skin, and filled with a random assortment of bones, gristle and (obviously) testicles (I estimate he must have had 8 or 9 of these at least, as he never left our door). It was the middle of winter, it was bitter out, and this little grey-muzzled old lad stayed at our gate day and night for the duration. I honestly don't know how he didn't freeze to death.

Mr LB took him home several times, but often the dog was back at the gate before he was. I worried about him and used to feed him and give him warm milk - for which I used to get regular tellings-off from Mr LB - "We'll never get rid of the bugger if you feed him!" "Yes, I know - but look at him." He was emaciated (just with age - not neglect) had baldy front legs and a grey face and just stood shivering miserably outside the gate. And Mr LB, being a softie at heart would say "Do what you like then - you will anyway" (How well he knows me ).

One day he wasn't there, and I realised that miserable time was over at last. He'd gone back to his home comforts. The old bloke died a couple of years later, and I saw the dog with a lady that I assumed was his grand-daughter, but when I spoke to her it turned out that she was his home help. When the guy had died, none of his family wanted the dog (to be fair, his kids were in their 70's) and so she took him. She'd been cleaning for the old man for umpteen years and the dog had always been there. Even though it wasn't her job spec, she had used to take him to the shops when she went for the old lad's groceries etc and didn't want to see him dumped. She reckoned he was 20 when she got him (which would have made him 18 or so when he came a-wooing), and she had him until he was 23 (if her estimate was right) - I often used to see them about. I thought it was brilliant the way the dog adapted from being with an old bloke, let out to wander all day and kept in if he happened to be home at night, to being in a busy family with many visiting children and only taken out - not let out. From wild abandon to a structured life. He seemed to thrive on it, though.

I wonder if he was so persistent because he had had (ahem) "nibbled the cherry" on numerous occasions and had tasted the sweetness of that forbidden fruit (_*embarrassed koff*_). Probably all the young dogs knew there was something going on, weren't quite sure what, didn't know what they were missing and thought the canine equivalent of "Bugger this for a game of soldiers. Nowt's happening. I'm off to watch the snooker" thus missing any opportunity to experience connubial bliss.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I know you are a responsible and caring owner so yes have a cup of tea and unwind for now. Its hard when you feel everyone else is against your opinion but I think some of us feel you are not quite understanding that the owner of the male dog might not be able to stop their dog picking up and following Penny's scent. Its not just Penny don't forget its every bitch in season so on some walks there may be more than one, then there might be none for weeks then suddenly a bitch you have never seen before is being walked in season right under your nose. My boy wouldn't have needed to have seen Penny as he would have started to track her from a long way off as soon as we crossed her path. Fleur is right, dog owning etiquette a few years back was not to walk an in season bitch in public but that seems to have gone out of the window these days and people just do as they please with an "I'm alright Jack" attitude not even being aware of the consequences for other dogs/owners. Of course as a male dog owner if I saw someone coming with a bitch I knew was in season I would put my dog on a lead and walk the other way so as not to cross their tracks but more often I would cross their tracks first then have to try and get my dog back. Neutering (chemical castration) did not alter this behaviour as with some dogs the smell is the driving factor not their sex hormones.


I get quite annoyed by owners who walk their in-season bitches in areas away from their homes to reduce the likelihood of dogs following them back. Well, thanks a lot - it increases the likelihood that a dog might wander across roads and wherever searching for the source of that delightful perfume!

I'm fortunate in that apart from one over-testosteroned staffie, none of my boys have been particularly interested, but I do know people who have had difficulties with their male dogs because of this - and don't forget, not neutering is not always a choice. As others have commented there may be valid reasons for leaving a dog entire. He may react badly to anaesthetic, have heart or breathing problems which increase risks, or he may be a show or stud dog. After all, if ALL male dogs were neutered where would our next generation of puppies come from?


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Rosie64 said:


> Well I have had my cup of tea and a couple of choccy biccy's would any one else like a choccy biccy lol


I'd kill for one - thanks very much.

Oooooh, McVities! My favourite!


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> And here we go again


Popcorn, anyone?


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I scrolled through this on my phone...now I have eyestrain and my thumb fell off :Hungover


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Wtf? Do people actually put their dogs in nappies when they are in season?


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I shan't comment because I nasty and argumentative........... :Arghh


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

lemmsy said:


> Ok folks- hold on to your hats! Here comes a bombshell.
> There are truths in *both* sides to every argument. (there are also some mistruths but that's another story)
> 
> If we were to talk about early spaying and neutering, these are namely:
> ...


Wish I could rep you!


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Muttly said:


> Wtf? Do people actually put their dogs in nappies when they are in season?


Yes!


----------



## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

Muttly said:


> Wtf? Do people actually put their dogs in nappies when they are in season?


I used my hubbies pants when my German shepherds had seasons.
Their tails went out the hole designed for easy togger access!

They stayed at home in them though...there was no public viewing of my dogs in season or for that matter the Masters pants!


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Muttly said:


> Wtf? Do people actually put their dogs in nappies when they are in season?


We had pant type things with a sanitary towel for KT, but she wore them once while it didn't bother her I just hated them, I was concerned about uti's with them  it was easier for me to follow her with a mop and keep chair the chair covers, she wasn't walked either.


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Wow very suprised, and had to laugh at Kare's underpant comments!! :Hilarious

Parents did the house with tarp when their girl was in season.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Muttly said:


> Wow very suprised, and had to laugh at Kare's underpant comments!! :Hilarious
> 
> Parents did the house with tarp when their girl was in season.


We were lucky KT was very clean, my mates Frenchie bitch is a dirty cow bag, she doesn't clean herself, not pretty at all...................


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

My first Pei, M'boi bled heavily so in the house and car she wore baby disposable nappies which I used to change two or three times a day. Much easier than cleaning all the drips and having to wash soiled bed linen and upholstery.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wrong on so many levels.....................


----------



## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I just had no idea! Christ.


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Daisy bled quite heavily the first season, so we bought pants for her for the second as it was over Christmas and we were staying with my parents. I didn't want her dripping blood all over their house! As it happened, she either bled a lot less, or kept herself clean a lot more, so we didnt end up using. She did wear a onesie when she was spayed, though!


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I have always since an adult only had male dogs. Nuetured and unnuetured there can often be no mistaking when there is an in season bitch around. One of my Border Collies would scale numerous 6ft plus fence with a trellis on top in order to escape and go looking for the said lady. My GSP on the other hand has had an off lead n season bitch shoving her bum in his face and he took no notice, ( surprisingly i did get yelled at for having a male who was on lead, though ).
Both parties need to be extra vigilant IMHO


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blah..blah..blah...I'm right and your wrong so nerrrrr....

Pretty much what I am getting from this right now...Some just don't like it when others have differing views on the same thing


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Blah..blah..blah...I'm right and your wrong so nerrrrr....
> 
> Pretty much what I am getting from this right now...Some just don't like it when others have differing views on the same thing


Well you know I can't keep my mouth shut hahahahaha


----------



## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

The whole neutering thing IMO is entirely down to personal preference male and female dogs, and it is responsible dog ownership that prevents unwanted litters, not neutering. None of my dogs are neutered and not an unwanted pup in sight. If dogs are managed correctly then there's no chance of pregnancy. People need to educate themselves on their choices and learn to deal with entire dogs correctly, there's not really an excuse.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I should say I'm not really anti neutering. If people have done their research and feel the benefits outweigh the risks then fine. Equally I understand why rescues neuter, or insist that pups be neutered, although I still have serious objections to doing it too early.

But I can't stand this current fashion for doing it willy nilly (pun intended!) to every dog, or for pups, or the idea that only crap owners don't neuter.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

StormyThai said:


> Blah..blah..blah...I'm right and your wrong so nerrrrr....
> 
> Pretty much what I am getting from this right now...Some just don't like it when others have differing views on the same thing


^^^ This.

Believing that you are absolutely right, without even the consideration that those that differ may have valid points in their argument is a very dangerous thing!

Intelligence is recognising that, in many cases, two opposing sides will both contain truths and mistruths and it is this myriad or circular spectrum of facts that show you the true picture, or at least, some of it. Sometimes we don't know the answer fully.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/on-being-certain/


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

kare said:


> I used my hubbies pants when my German shepherds had seasons.
> Their tails went out the hole designed for easy togger access!


I'll bet he was overjoyed with that! :Hilarious

*Opens the drawer*

"Where have all my fecking pants gone?"

*Dog appears*


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Gemmaa said:


> I scrolled through this on my phone...now I have eyestrain and my thumb fell off :Hungover


Bring it round - I have some Araldite.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> BTW, re this -
> QUOTE,
> ...


Right and yet, I could also cite cases in which dogs who were castrated during their secondary fear periods, on vet advice for behavioural therapy purposes and showed increased anxiety related behaviours and less behavioural bounce back following.

Do we know for sure whether this was, during this sensitive period during their development in which novel stimuli are feared or approached with caution, related to:
1. a sudden and dramatic reduction in testosterone levels
2. the trauma of an op (ok not considerable consider other ops, but still significant)
3. post-traumatic stress in response to separation from their primary caregiver prior to sedation
4. Immediately post operative physiological changes
5. Post op pain
6. Other individual cases factors
7. A combination of the above?

No. We will never have exact answers. Common sense says however that, as above, during a sensitive period in an adolescent dog's development, the decision to put them through an op, which alters hormonal balance and causes some physiological and psychological stress, should be well thought through, weighing up the potential benefits and risks and looking at the individual case.

I'm not saying that neutering for behavioural purposes is never the right thing to do. However, I do think we should query the one size fits all "off with their knackers quick" approach to all problematic behaviour.

I would also query your wording of a "valid reason" for a bite.

A bite is a symptom of an emotional state, often fear, a lack of choice, an inability to escape and yes, sometimes pain.

Only the dog knows what makes them feel so unsafe that they feel a bite is the only option. There is no "validity" to it. You have to know and listen to the dog in front of you.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Someone has mis-read me.
I never said, _"All dogs should be desexed."_
_._
_I said, "I've yet to see a study that SUPPORTS this story, that neutering a fearful MALE dog_
_makes him *worse - supposedly, 'desex makes timid dogs More Fearful'." *As far as I'm_
_concerned, this is no more nor less than a modern-day urban myth._
_._
Additionally, I've heard the tale that dogs who are desexed before puberty are somehow doomed
to die young, or to suffer crippling joint issues. This, too, was something i never heard *before a*
*few years ago, & i 1st heard it right here - on PF-uk, from breeders & pet-owners; not from*
*vets, not from trainers, not from specialists who study fertility issues & problems [therio-*
*genologists] around fertility.*
.
http://www.therio.org/
.
That was around the same time that USA-breeders were up in arms, because cities & counties
were passing laws to require all pets who were not breeding [current or future] to be desexed by
puberty, so that the constant flow of unwanted, unintended pups & kittens would finally STOP.
_._
_US-breeders waged a bitter campaign against this legal wave; they didn't want to buy licenses,_
_they didn't want to desex animals they weren't currently either showing or breeding actively, they_
_didn't want their buyers discouraged from breeding their get, often under a co-ownership clause,_
_etc, etc._
_Pups or [less often] kittens left-over from purebred litters are often 'discarded' at public shelters_
_if they don't sell by 10 to 12-wks. It's cheaper than rearing them on, & it saves time & space._
_._
The data i've read indicate that yes, some specific illnesses are at slightly-increased risk after
desex - but they're not "inevitable", & they're not "common". An increase from 0.2% to 0.4% is
"twice as likely", but it's hardly DOOM.
Many of the illnesses prevented by desex are far-more common & much-more likely, plus they
are often more difficult to treat or more dangerous than the low-risk illnesses that become a
slightly-higher risk post-desex.
Just one example:
mammary cancers in intact bitches are over 4X as likely as breast cancer in women.
Desex before 1st-estrus reduces the risk by 99.99%.
Over 65% of bitches Dx'ed with mammary cancer die at that same appt - by the time there are
symptoms, nearly 7 in 10 have metastasized to the lungs; it's inoperable & untreatable, except
for pain-relief.
.
In males, virtually every intact-M will develop BHP by age 5 to 6. A growing prostate isn't cancer,
but it's not "benign". It causes urinary & bowel problems, & discomfort - it's not fatal, but it's hardly
a fun thing.
For perianal fistulas in intact-Ms, desex is step one in treatment, almost invariably. Anal fistulas
are most-often seen in intact Ms between 5 & 8-YO; what does this mean?
That U can breed a dog, & about the time U'd be retiring him, he should be desexed - to prevent
any worsening BHP, & to avoid other health issues in aging intact-Ms.
.
.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Someone has mis-read me.
> I never said, _"All dogs should be desexed."_
> ...


Hi Terry 

Something seems to have crossed out everything you typed out?

I've narrowed down your points on other health issues as, although an important thing to consider, it's not relevant to the behavioural point you and I are discussing 

Nobody has said neutering a fearful male dog will make him more fearful.

I said that there is some evidence to suggest that neutering a fearful dog for behaviour therapeutical reasons, particularly during it's secondary fear period, CAN or indeed MAY be detrimental. Not *will *but *CAN OR MAY*.
No certainties, but it's a possibility to consider. 
Did you have a look at the list of studies I posted? There are more of course.

If you want some discussion of this particular point (this is not a study but an article), have a read of the following...

It is posted on the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors website. Members of this organisation at practitioner level require at least postgraduate (level 7+) education in behaviour science and related disciplines.

The article is written by Mat Ward- he has a BSc (double major in Psychology and Zoology), an MVS (Master in Veterinary Science) and is a CCAB (Certified Clinical Animal Behaviourist).

Check it out here:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs

The follow up article, also approved by the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors, is a summary sheet outlining situations where castration may be beneficial or detrimental for a dog. See below.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/private/apbc_summary_sheet_of_castration_risks_and_benefits.pdf

I'm not saying there are not instances when neutering is going to be beneficial behaviourally. Of course there are. But there are also instances in which it may not.

It is not a black and white- one size fits all subject and shouldn't be considered as such.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Muttly said:


> Wtf? Do people actually put their dogs in nappies when they are in season?


Yes I have done in the house only many years ago, its not a nappy as such, well I call them anyway, i still have it, its like a black pantie stretchy type thing and it has room for the tail and i just used to put toilet roll in the bit where the vulva rests on. I mentioned it in this thread and called then nappies as I wasnt sure of the proper term. My main use and many others is while they are indoors to stop blood going on carpet or rugs etc.. They are actually pretty common. No need for the sad face. My dog never moaned 10yrs ago


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Lemmsy -

I would also query your wording of a "valid reason" for a bite.
A bite is a symptom of an emotional state, often fear, a lack of choice, an inability to escape and yes, sometimes pain.
Only the dog knows what makes them feel so unsafe that they feel a bite is the only option. There is no "validity" to it.
You have to know and listen to the dog in front of you.
.
.
Lemmsy, my statement was very simple.
I was referring to a *justified bite. *Justified bites are those in which the circs make a bite PRE-
DICTABLE, in other words a reasonable person would expect the dog to bite, or JUSTIFIABLE -
a legal term.
*Justified force* refers to how much force one can use, defending oneself, another person, or
one's property from a perceived threat. The level of the threat determines what's 'justified' as a
response. Above "justified" or "reasonable" force, we have EXCESSIVE force. The Cincinnati
college-cop who shot a man fatally after a traffic stop is indicted, & was charged with murder.
There was no imminent threat to his life, & while he was not yet convicted of murder, he will at
the very least probably be convicted of manslaughter; possibly 2nd degree murder.
.
Justified bites under Calif's state Dangerous-Dog law include anytime a person commits a tort
on the dog's home property - assault the owner, a family member, or visitor, trespass, etc.
.
Pain, fear, teasing or harassment, startled [esp'ly from sleep], unable to escape / trapped, are
all generally regarded as justifications to bite in self-defense. Intention does not change the la-
bel; U didn't INTEND to startle the sleeping dog when U patted his shoulder, but U did, & he
snapped at U. U were trying to help the dog hit by the car, but when U picked her up, it hurt, &
she bit U.
Hence, my remark that pain is a valid reason to bite - e-g, it's a justified bite. How MUCH pain
will partly determine how serious the bite is - along with factors such as trapped, chased into a
corner just before being painfully handled, high stress [vet's exam table], etc.
.
.
.


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Haven't read all the thread, but to be honest @Doggiedelight if a male dog was running up to yours from 3 miles away, forcing himself upon Penny and generally unruly and causing a nuisance that's as the result of irresponsible ownership and poor training on it's owner part and has nothing to do with him having his balls or not 

I have walked Ty in and around in season bitches and he's never been overly interested, recalls away easily and doesn't;t attempt to follow them. Not all unneutered male dogs are raving, humping, sex maniacs.


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Doggiedelight said:


> I think people who dont neuter their dogs are selfish. Just my opinion. As for having no other responsibility other than putting her on a lead, thats codswallop, that was just an example of how I would walk her instead of being offlead which she normally would be. Im a very good dog owner. As im sure everyone is on here. We all have our own views and opinions.


But it's equally selfish to put your dog through unnecessary surgery  and I'd certainly never do so to please the masses.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Muttly said:


> Wtf? Do people actually put their dogs in nappies when they are in season?


My parents did. Mainly because they had an elderly dog at the time (14) and while he couldn't "do" anything it did cause him to pay "special" attention to her area. The nappy prevented that.

Personally I found it quite funny to see 

In other news I think Pet Forums has ran out of purple ink.....


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Penny perfectly happy in her 'nappy'  for those who didnt see my other thread she started her season a few days ago. She wears a nappy because she is always in the front room which is cream carpeted and always on our knees. First 20 mins on first day she kept trying to pull at it and now she stands and lets me put it on and plays as normal. Doesnt wear it at night as shes in her crate and obviously doesnt wear it in the garden. She looks rather cute in her nappy i think  no nasty comments please!


----------



## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

She looks very cute, what a pose as well! 

Barney was only neutered because one of his testicles didn't descend, otherwise it is unlikely he would have been neutered. I don't personally see the point of removing something that is perfectly healthy, but I can see why lots of people do it, especially for convenience with things such as walking off lead.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I agree with the OP, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you haven't had your male dog neutered you can't complain about someone making the same choice for their female dog and vice versa. I would complain about a male dog that isn't neutered harassing a female dog, if you choose to keep your male or female dog entire, don't let them harass other dogs, actually just don't let your dogs harass other dogs full stop, neutered or not. 

'I'm not putting my dog through an unnecessary operation', that goes for female dogs too. Why should I have my dog done, to stop yours being a pita. I might want to show, or breed. 'What if my dog can't have an operation, due to ill health, or genetic disorder.' That goes for female dogs too.

You choose to keep your dog entire, it's up to you to prevent unwanted puppies, whether you own the male version, or the female version. If a male dog turns into an uncontrollable, slavering heap when he scents an in season female, off with his balls, or get training. Don't complain about the female. 

I haven't had Elles spayed yet. I can't be responsible for male dogs walked past my door when she's in season, other than to make sure they can't get to her. If they get upset by her scent, then sorry, but that's not my problem. I do take her for walks when she's in season, I choose my time and place and weigh up the risks. Your male dog walked in the same place the following day, might drool and get excited, well tough, get his balls off and think yourself lucky you don't live next door to me, if it's that much of an issue. Otherwise, I don't care whether you keep your dog entire or not, it's your choice. It's just a dog, you'd think the world is about to end.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> I agree with the OP, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you haven't had your male dog neutered you can't complain about someone making the same choice for their female dog and vice versa. I would complain about a male dog that isn't neutered harassing a female dog, if you choose to keep your male or female dog entire, don't let them harass other dogs, actually just don't let your dogs harass other dogs full stop, neutered or not.
> 
> 'I'm not putting my dog through an unnecessary operation', that goes for female dogs too. Why should I have my dog done, to stop yours being a pita. I might want to show, or breed. 'What if my dog can't have an operation, due to ill health, or genetic disorder.' That goes for female dogs too.
> 
> ...


Strange isn't it the two people with the what ever attitude are those with the bitches.......


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

It wouldn't make any difference whether I had a bitch or a dog. I had a male dog, when I was young about a hundred years ago, and I didn't have him neutered either. What does make a difference to my choice for me personally is where I live. I don't live in a heavily populated area, I can walk Elles in the middle of nowhere and she's 4 now, but only had 3 seasons. If I lived in town and she came into season every 6 months, I probably would have had her spayed, for my own convenience. I wouldn't take her to a camp-site when she's in season, for my own peace of mind and the OP has already said they wouldn't either. 

I strongly believe it's down to individual choice and individual responsibility. Some people would like to see it made law and only dogs assessed suitable for breeding kept entire. Who's supposed to do the assessing and on what criteria, I wouldn't like to guess. I don't think that the decision should be based on whether Fred Blogg's entire dog down the road becomes an uncontrollable lunatic, who causes traffic accidents and spends his time sitting outside houses that have in season dogs living in them. Fred Bloggs needs to take responsibility for his own dog.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> I agree with the OP, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you haven't had your male dog neutered you can't complain about someone making the same choice for their female dog and vice versa. I would complain about a male dog that isn't neutered harassing a female dog, if you choose to keep your male or female dog entire, don't let them harass other dogs, actually just don't let your dogs harass other dogs full stop, neutered or not.
> 
> 'I'm not putting my dog through an unnecessary operation', that goes for female dogs too. Why should I have my dog done, to stop yours being a pita. I might want to show, or breed. 'What if my dog can't have an operation, due to ill health, or genetic disorder.' That goes for female dogs too.
> 
> ...


Did you actually read my posts about my last gsp? just in case you didn't we tried chemical castration several times but it made NO difference therefore neutering wouldn't have either. Many male dogs are reacting to the smell of the in season bitch so whether they are entire or not they will still react to the smell. Have you ever seen a male dog who is so distressed by the smell of an in season bitch? we are not talking normal naughty behaviour that can be distracted with a ball, we are talking about throwing themselves at doors and windows when back in the house, trying to escape the house and garden at every opportunity, not eating, pacing up and down the house whining all day and night, losing weight. As I've repeatedly said I could keep my boy on the lead for ages after we saw the bitch but if I then let him off a mile further or 2 hours further he would shoot off like a possessed creature to find the scent to follow it again. No one is saying all bitches should be spayed, keep bitches entire if you want to but just please please be considerate about walking them in public places whilst they are in season, its not much to ask the bitch owner to do just during their dog's season whereas the owner of male dogs who react like this have to deal with every bitch in the neighbourhood and beyond. I'm sorry Elles but your post comes across as totally selfish.


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Elles said:


> It wouldn't make any difference whether I had a bitch or a dog. I had a male dog, when I was young about a hundred years ago, and I didn't have him neutered either. What does make a difference to my choice for me personally is where I live. I don't live in a heavily populated area, I can walk Elles in the middle of nowhere and she's 4 now, but only had 3 seasons. If I lived in town and she came into season every 6 months, I probably would have had her spayed, for my own convenience. I wouldn't take her to a camp-site when she's in season, for my own peace of mind and the OP has already said they wouldn't either.
> 
> I strongly believe it's down to individual choice and individual responsibility. Some people would like to see it made law and only dogs assessed suitable for breeding kept entire. Who's supposed to do the assessing and on what criteria, I wouldn't like to guess. I don't think that the decision should be based on whether Fred Blogg's entire dog down the road becomes an uncontrollable lunatic, who causes traffic accidents and spends his time sitting outside houses that have in season dogs living in them. Fred Bloggs needs to take responsibility for his own dog.


Problem is as has been said time and time again in this thread, it's not just entire dogs that react to bitches, I have a entire dog who doesn't react to it, not even in the same house, I know Eric will react to it even now he hasn't encountered it, but he will be managed. I didn't walk my bitch in season, and if I had of done in my normal walking areas it would have been my tough titties if she was annoyed by other dogs, because unless I ran round with a sign no one else would know and that's unfair to all dog owners in that area because you don't know what you don't know. So both are responsible for having entire pets no matter how long they have them entire for, and both should show consideration for others, not just for those with entire dogs..


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Meezey said:


> So both are responsible for having entire pets no matter how long they have them entire for, and both should show consideration for others, not just those with entire dogs..


Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself. (and I didn't) :Hilarious


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Just out of interest, if I had a male dog who couldn't cope with in season bitches and would run off as soon as I let him off the lead, obviously I'd keep him on the lead, but is there anything else? I'd probably get him neutered anyway, so he couldn't cause an accidental litter, but are there no aids to reducing his anxiety about it? Scent aids, calming aids?


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

If you live somewhere rural and rarely bump into other dogs, then I see no issue with you walking your in season bitch.

Sadly not all owners are as sensible. The bitches we had walked with/bumped into on walks in our old village were off lead walking in a popular dog walking spot. One bitch we knew. The other was a random dog whom was allowed to run at Ty, flaunt herself and totally ignore desperate recalls from her owner. When he shouted over to ask whether my dog was entire and I responded yes, he practically flew down the track and told me his dog was in season. I don't understand why you'd allow an in season bitch off lead in a dog popular area and it's asking for trouble IMO. Wouldn't entertain the thought of taking a bitch in season to a busy campsite either.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Elles used to go to work with hubby most of the time and there's no dogs for miles, so it was fine. She doesn't any more though, she comes to the yard where I keep my horses and the yard dog is a male Lancashire Heeler who hasn't been neutered, so I don't take her when she's in season. It means I end up walking her at 11 - 12 at night in the middle of nowhere when she is in season and I don't like it. Not only is it scary walking in the fields and woods when it's dark, if I do bump into someone with a dog, they're probably trying to avoid other dogs too and it might be because they're aggressive and difficult. As I said to hubby, if I do bump into some chap with a large aggressive dog in the middle of the night, I'm not likely to be able to do very much about it, but she's a fit collie and it's unfair to keep her locked up for 3 weeks imo, so she is about to be spayed. 

The Heeler is territorial though and will have a go at both male dogs and spayed female dogs (which did surprise me, but I've seen it myself) who encroach on his territory, so I did ask here if it was likely to make a difference if his best friend (Elles) goes from entire to spayed, but didn't get an answer. I hate leaving her at home all day when she is in season though, so I am about to risk it. I just hope that they still get on and she can still come with me. He is one reason I haven't had her spayed already, it's unlikely he would have tolerated her if he'd met her when she was already done and I wanted to make sure their relationship was well established first. If he wasn't there, I wouldn't have to take him into account and then I might be lazy about whether I had her done or not tbh.

I still think both parties need to behave responsibly though. Responsible people with entire males or females unfortunately have to accept that not everyone will be and take precautions for their own dogs, if their choice is to keep their dogs entire, regardless of the reasons for it, or the gender of the dog. The OP was told she should get her dog spayed before her first season and is irresponsible because entire male dogs will roam for miles to get to her and she'll stress them out, as though that's normal and acceptable.  It's okay for people to keep male dogs entire and let them loose, oh dear poor boys can't help themselves, but all females should be spayed, because their scent wafts on the wind? Harrumph.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Elles said:


> Elles used to go to work with hubby most of the time and there's no dogs for miles, so it was fine. She doesn't any more though, she comes to the yard where I keep my horses and the yard dog is a male Lancashire Heeler who hasn't been neutered, so I don't take her when she's in season. It means I end up walking her at 11 - 12 at night in the middle of nowhere when she is in season and I don't like it. Not only is it scary walking in the fields and woods when it's dark, if I do bump into someone with a dog, they're probably trying to avoid other dogs too and it might be because they're aggressive and difficult. As I said to hubby, if I do bump into some chap with a large aggressive dog in the middle of the night, I'm not likely to be able to do very much about it, but she's a fit collie and it's unfair to keep her locked up for 3 weeks imo, so she is about to be spayed.
> 
> The Heeler is territorial though and will have a go at both male dogs and spayed female dogs (which did surprise me, but I've seen it myself) who encroach on his territory, so I did ask here if it was likely to make a difference if his best friend (Elles) goes from entire to spayed, but didn't get an answer. I hate leaving her at home all day when she is in season though, so I am about to risk it. I just hope that they still get on and she can still come with me. He is one reason I haven't had her spayed already, it's unlikely he would have tolerated her if he'd met her when she was already done and I wanted to make sure their relationship was well established first. If he wasn't there, I wouldn't have to take him into account and then I might be lazy about whether I had her done or not tbh.
> 
> I still think both parties need to behave responsibly though. Responsible people with entire males or females unfortunately have to accept that not everyone will be and take precautions for their own dogs, if their choice is to keep their dogs entire, regardless of the reasons for it, or the gender of the dog. The OP was told she should get her dog spayed before her first season and is irresponsible because entire male dogs will roam for miles to get to her and she'll stress them out, as though that's normal and acceptable.  It's okay for people to keep male dogs entire and let them loose, oh dear poor boys can't help themselves, but all females should be spayed, because their scent wafts on the wind? Harrumph.


I see your dilemma with Elles and think I would have done the same thing in the hope of getting good communication between the Heeler and Elles and I would, like you, still be wondering what was going to happen when Elles was spayed.

But I actually think that very few people were actually telling the OP to go and get their female dog spayed (and I can see only one who would have a bitch spayed before her first season), The issue was about an owner of an unspayed bitch complaining about entire male dogs without seeming to allow that responsible actions need to be taken by owners of entire dogs on both sides. And even then, as far as I remember (this is a long thread) the OP came back and said that she would not be taking her in-season bitch to public places intentionally, but had been worried about what would happen if her bitch came into season while they were on holiday.

I have actually found this quite an enlightening discussion (when people listen to the others argument anyway....), because it has confirmed what I have always thought - there is no 'one solution fits all' when it comes to neutering or not neutering. It should be decided on an individual basis. We all have our 'preferences', but really, it is our dog's health and welfare we should be thinking of, whatever we decide. Just like you are considering with Elles.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> Elles used to go to work with hubby most of the time and there's no dogs for miles, so it was fine. She doesn't any more though, she comes to the yard where I keep my horses and the yard dog is a male Lancashire Heeler who hasn't been neutered, so I don't take her when she's in season. It means I end up walking her at 11 - 12 at night in the middle of nowhere when she is in season and I don't like it. Not only is it scary walking in the fields and woods when it's dark, if I do bump into someone with a dog, they're probably trying to avoid other dogs too and it might be because they're aggressive and difficult. As I said to hubby, if I do bump into some chap with a large aggressive dog in the middle of the night, I'm not likely to be able to do very much about it, but she's a fit collie and it's unfair to keep her locked up for 3 weeks imo, so she is about to be spayed.
> 
> The Heeler is territorial though and will have a go at both male dogs and spayed female dogs (which did surprise me, but I've seen it myself) who encroach on his territory, so I did ask here if it was likely to make a difference if his best friend (Elles) goes from entire to spayed, but didn't get an answer. I hate leaving her at home all day when she is in season though, so I am about to risk it. I just hope that they still get on and she can still come with me. He is one reason I haven't had her spayed already, it's unlikely he would have tolerated her if he'd met her when she was already done and I wanted to make sure their relationship was well established first. If he wasn't there, I wouldn't have to take him into account and then I might be lazy about whether I had her done or not tbh.
> 
> I still think both parties need to behave responsibly though. Responsible people with entire males or females unfortunately have to accept that not everyone will be and take precautions for their own dogs, if their choice is to keep their dogs entire, regardless of the reasons for it, or the gender of the dog. The OP was told she should get her dog spayed before her first season and is irresponsible because entire male dogs will roam for miles to get to her and she'll stress them out, as though that's normal and acceptable.  *It's okay for people to keep male dogs entire and let them loose, oh dear poor boys can't help themselves, but all females should be spayed, because their scent wafts on the wind? Harrumph.*


I didn't read anyone saying that, just asking for consideration about where the in season bitch is walked. 3 weeks is not that long but you see after your 3 weeks is over there will be another then another then another bitch so if you do have a male dog who reacts what are you supposed to do? never take it out? Oh and by the way a bit of calming aid wouldn't even touch the surface.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't know what you're supposed to do, which is why I asked, but if your neighbours (for 3 miles?) had super bitches they wanted to breed, or had decided they didn't want to spay, they should do it anyway because it upsets the odd male dog who can't cope with it? If a dog throws himself at windows and constantly tries to escape if he smells an in season bitch, where people walk their bitches isn't really the issue is it? The owner of the male dog has an unfortunate problem that they have to manage and I sympathise. I personally don't know how they would, drugs, calmers, scent maskers? I would say they should probably get their dog neutered though, in case he does manage to get out, if they want to make sure his escape doesn't lead to unwanted pups. If it's really extreme and nothing really can be done, I might consider an attempt at rehoming to a rural area where there are few other dogs too. I probably smell of my dog myself when she's in season and as I take her out in the car, that probably does too. It sounds like a serious (and hopefully unusual) problem, especially for a dog where there are many unspayed females. Some countries rarely neuter, so I expect they have to deal with it as well sometimes.

The OP said



Doggiedelight said:


> However I was told all dogs will come and mount her forcefully and get her pregnant from 3 miles around as thats how far they can smell a bitch in season from. ALSO its will stress out all the dogs around who arent neutered!!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> I don't know what you're supposed to do, which is why I asked, but if your neighbours (for 3 miles?) had super bitches they wanted to breed, or had decided they didn't want to spay, *they should do it anyway because it upsets the odd male dog who can't cope with it? * If a dog throws himself at windows and constantly tries to escape if he smells an in season bitch, where people walk their bitches isn't really the issue is it? The owner of the male dog has an unfortunate problem that they have to manage and I sympathise. I personally don't know how they would, drugs, calmers, scent maskers? I would say they should probably get their dog neutered though, in case he does manage to get out, if they want to make sure his escape doesn't lead to unwanted pups. If it's really extreme and nothing really can be done, I might consider an attempt at rehoming to a rural area where there are few other dogs too. I probably smell of my dog myself when she's in season and as I take her out in the car, that probably does too. It sounds like a serious (and hopefully unusual) problem, especially for a dog where there are many unspayed females. Some countries rarely neuter, so I expect they have to deal with it as well sometimes.
> 
> The OP said


No that wasn't what I said. It used to be considered good etiquette not to walk an in season bitch in public and that's all I was asking for and trying to explain to people how its not just as simple as saying get your male neutered or train a good recall. That dog would turn on a sixpence away from deer and other dogs but once he got that scent of a bitch in season he was beyond reaching. Yes my dog was probably fairly extreme and luckily we managed him well enough that he never got out, I had a friend with a similar problem at the same time though so perhaps not that unusual. Anyway that dog had been dead for 6 years so its no longer an issue for me but I do feel sorry for other male dog owners with the same issue. My current boys are both neutered and react in probably the way most males do, a bit of sniffing and chuntering/drooling then happily go on their way.


----------



## Guest (Aug 4, 2015)

I don’t think anyone has any problem with being courteous with a bitch in heat, but the piece that’s missing is *within reason*.

Here in the US is it common for there to be bitches in heat at dog shows and trials. When you’ve paid for a weekend of hotels and entry fees and travelled hundreds of miles, no one expects you to scratch just because your bitch is in heat. 

SOME bitches lose their minds and don’t work well in heat.
SOME dogs lose their minds and don’t work well around bitches in heat.

However the vast majority of intact dogs and bitches can deal with being around each other in small doses and handle it just fine. Sure, you have to add in some additional training and management, but for the most part, having to deal with a bitch in heat in the near vicinity is not that much to ask of an intact dog, and if it is, I consider it the dog’s problem, not the bitch’s. 

If I had a bitch in heat, I’m not going to go parade her around, letting her flag in every dog’s nose. Yes, you practice common courtesy, crate away from high traffic areas, keep her clean and in a diaper if needed, don’t linger around ring gates etc. 
In the same way with a pet dog, you practice sensible common courtesy. If it’s feasible, the bitch stays in the garden for the duration, or maybe during the peak of the season. But what about people who live in apartments? The dog HAS to be walked at least to stretch her legs. So you do it during off times, in low traffic areas, and keep her on leash and away from other dogs. 

But again, if I’m being responsible and keeping my bitch in a well protected fenced yard where she only goes out while supervised, and there are 5 neighborhood dogs lingering outside my fence daily getting in to fights with each other, that’s not because I’m being irresponsible by keeping my bitch intact. That’s those dog owners not doing their part to properly manage their dogs.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
My new 5-day live-in job lacks Wi-Fi, so i'm perforce off-line much of the time.
I had this in draft when i last visited, & didn't get to post it.
===============
.
QUOTE, Apollo2012:

...OTOH, my boy is intact *because he is very nervous, & castration would make him worse. 
.*
There's no "may", 'could...', or "might" in that statement. It's presented as fact.
[Emphasis added in bold & color.]
*.
*
QUOTE, Silvi:

... I like to go by the adage, *spay the bitch but leave the male alone*...
... a strong movement in Spain [calls] for... *'heal, spay, recuperate, & release'*' [to help] thou-
sands of abandoned bitches... you simply can't find homes for them all, but they still deserve
a chance at life. And I agree with that.
.
This is just a Trap / Neuter / Release program for dogs, rather than cats.
[I don't agree with TNR for cats, either.] And where are THOUSANDS of vol-
unteers to donate food, feed them, & monitor roaming dogs?... Provide min-
imal vet-care, including 1 annual & every-3-yrs rabies-vax for life?
Who will donate the microchips to track each dog's rabies-vax status?
Who will live-trap & bring them in for treatment - HBC, leg fractures, fight in-
juries, illness, trauma...? Who will reimburse the farmer who loses livestock
or a pet-owner whose dog is injured by a free-roaming, OWNERLESS dog?

Who picks up the tab? - _*"Just suck it up" *_isn't a popular campaign slogan.

I'll also note desexing 1 F eliminates just 2 litters / yr; desexing 1 M elimin-
ates multiple litters. Ms aren't physically limited in how many pups / litters
they can sire, while Fs are.
Plus, spays are abdominal-surgery; a scrotal cut is only skin-deep & yes, it
can be done with local numbing, plus a sedative if needed.
Comparing risks & co$t of M vs F desex is a joke - major surgery, open body
cavity, mandatory GA *vs* 2 nicks big-enuf to slide each testis out?... One F can
easily cost as much as over a dozen M-castrations, all same-size dogs. Talking
*at **cost*, not pet-vet retail fees.
.

QUOTE, ouesi:
I'm in the US & have never heard of castration without GA. We don't even geld horses without GA. 
At least none of my vets did....
.
Livestock -- horses, sheep, pigs, etc, even roosters - are often gelded without GA.

Early [pediatric] desex with testes in a scrotum are almost bloodless & not very
painful, as the area is underdeveloped before puberty. Ram-lambs are often
gelded within 10-days of birth, no drugs whatever. [Note roosters are a body-
cavity desex, but they, too, done with no anaesthetic.]
.
QUOTE, Lemmsy:
Nobody has said *neutering a fearful M dog will make him more fearful.*
...there is some evidence to suggest that neutering a fearful dog for behaviour therapeutical reasons,
particularly during her/his secondary fear period, CAN or indeed MAY be detrimental. Not *will *but *CAN
OR MAY*.
No certainties, but it's a possibility to consider.
...
.
See above; other comments on this thread include neutering "damages the con-
fidence" of M dogs, & i'm sure if the search-fxn on PF-uk weren't such a useless
waste of effort, i could find dozens of examples in minutes of blunt claims that
"neutering my M-dog / M-pup will 'unman' him / make a wuss of him", or similar.
.
I've concluded that it's like the alligators in the NYC sewers - it's too good a story
to kill with any facts.
The fable is simply more-appealing, like the myth of dogs as the "wolf on the hearth-
rug" or the concept of becoming PACK-LEADERS via a few simple rules... (never let
the dog walk in front of U, always eat B4 the dog or at least spit in their food, rolling
& pinning teaches a dog to submit, etc, etc, ad nauseum).
.
.


----------



## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

someone near me looked after his son's bitch while she was in season to keep her away from the local males. He decided that it wouldn't be sensible to walk her in the dog field so instead he exercised her on the grass areas that say "no dogs" and in the garden of an empty house. The problem I had with that is I live next door to the empty house and he was letting her pee beside my gate in the "no dogs" area and Angus was getting a bit wound up by it - He doesn't take off looking for bitches in season but one roaming and scenting inches from his fence wasn't very fair on him.
We sorted it when I mentioned that I had photos of the dog who was leaving poo in the "no dog" areas and was going to hand them in to the site office before anyone thought it was my dog given it was all round the outside of my property. He got his son to come and collect her that evening.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> ... a strong movement in Spain [calls] for... *'heal, spay, recuperate, & release'*' [to help] thou-
> sands of abandoned bitches... you simply can't find homes for them all, but they still deserve
> a chance at life. And I agree with that.
> ...


Sigh....
Have you ever been to Spain? Particularly mainland Spain out in the campo and small villages?
Stray dogs are fed on leftovers from people's meals; they drink water from water pumps; they sit around bars and pick up scraps; people put out water for them too. They also hunt squirrels in season and other small animals.
The main problem in Spain is that many people just do not want to take responsibility for having a pet. Some are cruel to dogs, particularly hunting dogs, but the vast majority will feed a starving dog, but refuse to take them on as their own dog.

As to the rabies shot - vets travel the villages every year, offering free vaccinations to all dogs. Those who know of street dogs will bring them along too. Any vaccination certificate for a street (unclaimed) dog is handed in to the town hall, with a description of the dog receiving the shot.

An injured dog can be more of a problem, but not insurmountable. We, and others like us, have taken injured animals along to our local vet and the vet has given treatment, sometimes on a 'treat now and pay when you can' basis, or even free.

A dangerous, roaming dog will not last long on the campo. It will be shot. A dog that attacks livestock will not last long for the same reason (although where we lived, livestock consisted mainly of the local goat herd - the rest of the farming was in olives, hazelnuts and oilseed rape). But most of the street dogs are not dangerous. They just want food and water and shelter from the heat in the summer and from the cold in the winter. The derelict houses found in most villages do for this.

I think that has answered your questions.
I never said this was a perfect system by any means, but it is a system that will usually work, when you know the region you are dealing with.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
No, i haven't "been to Spain", & so haven't seen the street strays, feral,
semi-feral or abandoned-pet dogs there in the flesh.
.
However, I **have* *seen street-dogs, ferals, semi-feral & abandoned-pet
dogs in various parts of the USA [N- & S-Carolina, VA, GA, various reser-
vations of American tribes in 5 states, N-Mex, Baja-Calif, TX, Okla, NJ,
Penna, N- & S-Dakota, Colo., Ark., Kansas, & others of the 48],
plus ownerless dogs in Greece & many other island communities, & the
Middle East, India, & N-Africa.
.
U'll have to talk *very* persuasively, indeed, to convince me that street dogs
& other ownerless dogs in _*Spain*_ are utterly different from ownerless dogs
in the rest of the world - they aren't skinny, filthy, mangy, rarely have visible
sores or other injuries [e-g, don't limp]... *Spanish strays* are healthy, sleek,
well-fed, free of fleas, ticks, & other internal & external parasites, their ears
aren't ragged with scabs, their butts aren't nearly-bald from chewing their
itchy rumps - heavens, any _*Spanish stray-dog *_could walk into a show ring
right off the street, & take 1st-place away from any FCI-champion - Right?...
.
Well, i'm from Missouri, & U'll have to show me. *Thpppppt!*
.
.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

I don't tend to get embroiled in the spay/neuter debates as, in my experience goes, girls and boys can live together (for all but a few weeks a year) in perfect harmony so long as there is a little thinking ahead. 

And then i go and read the threads about Pugaliers and I suddenly think ...now there's a good reason for spaying and neutering if ever i heard one 

J


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ranting about a culture that you (by your own admission) know zero about really does make you look silly  But aurguing with someone that DOES know the culture really is dumb!


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> No, i haven't "been to Spain", & so haven't seen the street strays, feral,
> semi-feral or abandoned-pet dogs there in the flesh.
> ...


I don't think you quite understood my post.

Did I say that Spanish street dogs were healthy and sleek? No I didn't. I described ways that they survived on the campo and why it was very rare that a street dog became a danger to people, livestock, or other people's pets.

The reason we took on so many rescue dogs over the years we lived in Spain is because some of them needed more help than living on the street could provide them with. And once with us and nursed back to health, they all wanted to stay! 

The argument for 'spay and release' sounds simple, but is anything but:
The idea is to rescue the dog first, bath it, de-lice/de-tick it, feed the dog, get it to the vets for a health check and vaccinations (when healthy enough to take them) and then, and only then, when the dog is healthy and tick free, would female dogs be spayed.
Then there would be a period of recuperation, another vet check, and only then release to the streets (if no rescue home was available).
(by the way, that is actually the procedure we followed with our dogs - apart from we made sure the females had had at least one season before they were spayed and all the dogs then stayed with us until they were adopted).

The argument for 'spay and release' also has a very simple premise.... the more street dogs who are spayed, the less street puppies will be born. In time (and admittedly this would take a fair amount of time), the number of Spanish street dogs should decrease considerably and of those left, they will at least have a better chance of staying healthy.

So visitors to Spain shouldn't be seeing so many mangy, filthy, unhealthy street dogs to offend their senses.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, StormyThai:

*Ranting about a culture that you... know zero about* really does make you look silly 
But [arguing] with someone that DOES know the culture really is dumb!
.
.
I didn't say a dam*ed thing about Spain - which, as it happens, i DO know something
about.
.
I expressed an opinion on the *worldwide general physical state of ownerless dogs*,
which is underfed, filthy, often injured, frequently parasite-riddled, & generally speaking,
much-less than optimally healthy.
Add to this the problems they cause in their communities, & they're generally unwelcome -
they are not just "unsightly", they are pests who rummage in one's trash & strew it all over, 
sh*t & p!ss everywhere, fight in the street & stop traffic, are sprawled in the sidewalks or
mating in the motorway, bark like maniacs at random hours, & are a general pain-in-the-
bl**dy-a$$ for residents.
.
They cadge food from anyone foolish-enuf to eat in public, haunt food-stalls & vendors,
depress, inconvenience, or outrage tourists depending upon how compassionate the
individual might be, & when the tourists are gone at the end of the season, local auth-
orities often attempt to reduce their numbers, frequently by wholesale & cruel methods
such as poisoning - which is cheap, but ineffective & nasty.
.
That is the general *"culture" *of ownerless, roaming dogs around the world - they are
*"cultured" only in the sense of the weeds that spring up between paving stones.*
.
Spain's ownerless dogs are not a unique elite, kempt, well-kept, & healthy.
They're just more dirty, injured / ill, wormy, mangy, flea-raddled dogs - like millions in 
other places around the globe.
.
.
.


----------



## Guest (Aug 6, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> underfed, filthy, often injured, frequently parasite-riddled, & generally speaking,
> much-less than optimally healthy.
> Add to this the problems they cause in their communities, & they're generally unwelcome -
> they are not just "unsightly", they are pests who rummage in one's trash & strew it all over,
> ...


I've lived in both Central America and Spain. Both had substantial stray dog populations. They were NOTHING like what you describe. They weren't everywhere, pooping, peeing, mating, stealing food... They were out and about sure, but most left you alone if you left them alone, and shocker, most were in pretty decent shape. When I was a kid, a stray bitch had a litter of puppies in a construction site across the street, 6 healthy pups, that she was a great mom to, and even let us mess with her and her puppies. No, I'm not advocating any of that, just offering my experience with strays.

I currently live in an area with a feral dog population. I know they're out there, but most people would never know. Most of the dumped dogs perish quickly, but the ones who make it actually do quite well.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Wow! 13 pages and still going strong. I had a feeling hence post 2, lol!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, ouesi:
.
I've lived in both Central America and Spain. Both had substantial stray dog populations. 
They were NOTHING like what you describe. They weren't everywhere, pooping, peeing, mating, 
*stealing food...* 
.
.
Gee, the ownerless roaming dogs of Russia must be incredibly _*unique*, _eh? -
they've learned to "mug" ppl who purchase street-food from vendors by walking up
behind them & barking sharply, as some ppl will startle so abruptly they drop or spill
their just-purchased food. Instant food-dispensers, on request.
.
Don't take my word for it - multiple videos on UTube show their technique.
.

QUOTE, continued:
They were out & about, sure, but *most left you alone if you left them alone... *
.
Ahuh. Then there are the ones that don't - leave U alone, i mean. Again, there are
many video-clips of tourists AND locals being molested or threatened by stray dogs
in many different places.
Yes, there are dogs who just mooch around the area, keep a low profile, avoid any
human contact, etc. There are also dogs who charge ppl growling or barking, & dogs
who chase or threaten in groups - feel free to see any of the many videos of dogs ha-
rassing or threatening ppl in Mexico, Central & S-America, & Russia., among others.
.
Dogs in Russia have also learned to harass ppl into dropping their PARCELS - then
they rifle them for anything edible, & if U have bags & don't drop them, yes, ppl have
been bitten. Yes, i've seen the videos, taken from windows overlooking the scene -
obviously, of course they are FAKE, right?
.

...& _*shocker, most were in *_*pretty decent shape. ...*
I currently live in an area with a feral dog population. I know they're out there, but most people would
never know. *Most... dumped-dogs perish quickly, but *[*those*]* who make it actually do quite well.
.*
.
Funny, the dogs PACC brought in that had been living rough & roaming weren't ex-
actly thriving; they came from N & S-Carolina, VA & W Va.
The strays picked-up by local ACOs in Va Beach, Norfolk, Newport News, Chesa-
peake, Hampton, et al - the 7 sister-cities, the area where i lived for 12 years in VA -
were in good shape only if they'd recently been OWNED, & were in crappy condition
if they'd lived rough for months on end.
It was a reliable rule that the longer the dogs were on their own, the worse shape
they were in on intake. So no, the survivors weren't "doing quite well" - they were
surviving, not thriving. Merely *'not dying' *doesn't equate 'doing well'.
.
Dogs who'd survived a winter on their own often came in with frostbite damage to
ears, tails, or toes. Every dog over 18-mos old who'd scrounged for a living for more
than 3 or 4-mos came in heartworm-positive. Erlichiosis & other tick-borne diseases
were also common.
Getting a dog off the street & into a decent state of health isn't a cheap process.
.
Re-feeding a starved dog isn't as simple as just 'dump food in a bowl & let them eat
as they please', either.
.
I'll give just one sample of a dumped-dog: Max came into care via a Good Samari-
tan, who saw him running in the woods off a rural road in N-Carolina; she & hubby
were on vacay, he was a white intact-M GSD, & he weighed 45# when they took him
into their car, drove to a nearby vet, & weighed him.
They took photos, so did the vet, & the pictures were posted in the hope of reuniting
him with his owners. The couple phoned every vet-practice & sheriff's office in the a-
rea, but no owner had reported their white GSD lost.
3 weeks later, their month of cabin-rental was over; Max had gained 20# & had been
bathed twice, losing lots of mats & grunge. They took him home to Va Beach, where
their own 3 Labs were waiting, cared for by their adult son.
. 
The following Monday, Max was taken to their own vet - they'd decided to keep him,
he got on fine with their dogs. He didn't do much, just lay around, but they liked him.
The vet gave them the bad news - he was heartworm positive with a severe infesta-
tion, it would cost approx 2-grand to treat him, he'd die without it, & there was only a
50% chance he'd survive the Tx.
Plus, 4 dogs in Va Beach is 1 too many - local ordinance allows 3 per household.
.
That's when he came into K9 New Life, was treated & survived it, was fostered by Jo,
& that's when i entered the picture. Now that he was feeling good, he was highly re-
active & aggro toward other dogs - *all* other dogs, age & gender immaterial.
.
.
.


----------



## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Call me selfish but healthy testicles stay where nature put them.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I've told the full story of Max previously - he was one of the lucky ones, he got his
happy ending, & died much loved, full of years, peacefully.
.
Many ownerless dogs do not; they live "nasty, short, & brutish lives", die of trauma
[hit by cars, etc], illness, exposure [hypothermia or hyperthermia], thirst or hunger,
are stoned by malicious boys or equally-malicious adults, & in developing countries,
they're poisoned by the score.
.
In India, street-dogs are garbage-disposals, & now that 90% of the vultures are dead,
dogs help consume the carcasses of animals who die. They also keep down the rat-
popn, reducing the amount of damage done to human foodstuffs stored for later con-
sumption, & also the illnesses spread by rats [Lepto, plague, etc].
Rabies is the big concern with Indian street-dogs, hence the critical importance of
vaccination to reduce human rabies-cases.
.
But in most parts of the world, street-dogs & ferals are superfluous; they serve no
useful function, & are a drain on the local Govt's budget, unwelcome when alive, &
unmourned when they die.
.
.
.


----------



## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

bogdog said:


> Call me selfish but healthy testicles stay where nature put them.


You could say that about a healthy womb etc. the parts themselves at the time of speying/neutering arent normally a problem. Its only what we fear might happen that makes us decide to taken them away.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

http://www.thelocal.es/20150721/spanish-town-gives-dogs-and-cats-equal-rights

Maybe this is the answer. I would guess in this part of Spain dogs won't be mangy, flea ridden strays, attacking people for food, upsetting the locals and offending the tourists. I've been to Spain quite a bit, seeing as my son and his wife live there, and have never personally had a problem with the stray dogs there tbh. I was surprised at how many stray cats there were in Sitges though, it was a bit spooky seeing dozens at once. I don't think people can complain about the strays, they need to complain about the people who abandoned them and the culture that accepts it and/or do something about it. At least the people who capture, treat, neuter and release them are doing something about it. There probably aren't the resources or the homes to take them all in and probably not all dogs wandering about are strays anyway. In the UK it used to be common for the dog to be let out to do their own thing and it still is for cats. My daughter fosters rescues from Cyprus and I bred her, so I'm doing my bit.


----------



## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Elles said:


> I don't think people can complain about the strays, they need to complain about the people who abandoned them and the culture that accepts it and/or do something about it. At least the people who capture, treat, neuter and release them are doing something about it. There probably aren't the resources or the homes to take them all in and probably not all dogs wandering about are strays anyway. In the UK it used to be common for the dog to be let out to do their own thing and it still is for cats. My daughter fosters rescues from Cyprus and I bred her, so I'm doing my bit.


Exactly right on all counts


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
.
Along with desex / spay or neuter, there are many other UN-natural things we do,
with, to, & for our dogs or other pets.
- we vaccinate to prevent contagious diseases.
- we surgically correct painful or crippling structural defects [dysplasia, UAP, Wobbler's,
luxating patellae, etc].
- we "fix" congenital problems & developmental abnormalities [crooked forelegs, down
on pasterns, dropped haws, cherry-eye, Brachy Syndrome, etc].
- we screen prospective dams & sires to try to prevent such heritable issues, using DNA.
- we save animals who would be dead, left to "nature".
.
.
Hypothyroid is easy to fix, but untreated can be fatal. Ditto diabetes, epilepsy, & many o-
ther chronic-but-treatable problems. They're all _*"natural"*_. Snakebite, poisonous fungi,
blue-green algae toxins in the water?... all _*"natural"*_. 'Natural' isn't a synonym for _'good_
_for U', _it merely means the item isn't the product of artifice.
Arsenic & cyanide are natural, but they aren't 'good for U'.
.
Fencing our domestic horses?... Not natural - but needful.
I notice no horse-owners are arguing that all colts should be left intact. Why? - Could it be
that male horses are problematic to keep? Similarly, no horse-owners argue that all mares
should be desexed while studs are left intact. Why? --- Because one is highly-invasive, in-
tra-abdominal surgery, & the other is a simple skin-deep op.
.
Leashes aren't 'natural', but they're still the cheapest insurance i know of, & i heartily rec-
ommend them. 'Natural' isn't automatically benign; artificial isn't automatically evil, either.
.
.
.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

FWIW a stallion is not problematic to keep.
I have kept many a stallion over my years (including a 30" mini shetland), none escaped, none mounted mares they weren't supposed too and none were a menace in public. In fact many of my stallions were able to ride along side in season mares 

It is not the fact that the horse still has testicles that is the problem, it is the fact that many people do not know how to manage them...hmmmm, now where have I heard that before?


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Bit of a difference treating and 'fixing' deliberating and painful conditions that effect dogs physically as many you list above are @leashedForLife and removing a perfectly healthy and problem free part of a dogs anatomy to prevent potential issues/'fix' behavioural problems at a later date.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I must agree with Silvi on the Spanish stray issue, as someone who lived in Spain, speaks Spanish and worked exclusively with Spaniards (that is relevant culturally), worked for an animal welfare charity, that took on animals that had been seized by the state (non-canines), but also had ex stray canine residents. Without exception, every single one of the strays had arrived there because they were either dumped at the gates, emaciated, several showed signs of having been physically abused, or others found wandering, again emaciated and in poor condition but causing no concern to humans, livestock on anyone else. 
As Silvi states, they were first brought back to physical health, some had leishmaniasis (at a stage where it could still be controlled and medicated), parasites eliminated and then and only then neutered once they were physically mature and in a state of health to be able to cope with the surgery. They all stayed with us at the centre. My favourite, a little pittie cross lived in my house (on-site) with me whilst I was there. Lovely boy. 
I also worked for an organisation in France (again exclusive with French people) which dealt specifically with the issue of stray dogs and cats. The issues there are parallel.

@leashedForLife - did you read all those studies and articles I linked you to?

I do wonder sometimes about how people can be so firm in their opinion or knowledge that they fail to acknowledge any development in science and new information related to an issue that suggests that actually it's more complex than they give credit. Or even acknowledge that there *might* be something to the new development and instead immediate and vigilantly disregard, without apparently even taking the time to read up. Whilst there is credit to what they have to say, there is also evidence on the other side. Things aren't black and white. Behaviour, physiology etc is complex! All dogs, physiologically, behaviourally are not created equal!


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> 
> .
> .
> ...


Mmm. Really?!
Have you owned a hypo dog or experience in diagnosis of canine thyroid dysfunction?

A blanket statement such as "easy to fix" is rather inaccurate.

It's really not all that easy. It is notoriously difficult to get a diagnosis for one thing, let alone get to the treatment stage. Poor diagnostic practice means that it can be diagnosed when it shouldn't be (based on Total T4 readings alone) and missed when it should be picked up, because practioners aren't aware on the complexities of reading thyroid results.
Getting my own dog diagnosed involved sending bloods from the UK to the USA for testing and analysis by a specialist, and much to-and froing between the specialist and practice vets. General practice vets are often misinformed on diagnosis and treatment procedures for the conditions. Often getting to the point whereby the dog is stabilised on an appropriate dose can be a process that goes on for some time, and a costly one at that too. This is not helped by the fact that many practice vets are not aware how to read thyroid readings for dogs pre or post diagnosis or under treatment.

As for the condition being 'natural'. That's even more of a misconception. Autoimmune thyroiditis is the most common cause of thyroid disease in canines. Since it is an immune-mediated process that develops in genetically susceptible individuals and we are talking about selectively bred, domestic animals here, I think it's inaccurate to say that hypothyroidism is 'natural'. Thyroid specialists advocate thyroid function screening for breeding dogs for this precise reason. 
I wonder too whether you are familiar with research on the link between endocrine disease and juvenil 'de-sexing' (as you call it)- which is another point to consider (though often unrelated to autoimmune cases, but other forms).

Trust me on this one, I've translated several veterinary papers, (by veterinary pharmaceutical companies, specialists and researchers) on thyroid dysfunction in dogs, for the purpose of a research project.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> Mmm. Really?!
> Have you owned a hypo dog or experience in diagnosis of canine thyroid dysfunction?
> 
> A blanket statement such as "easy to fix" is rather inaccurate.
> ...


Lemmsy, you seem to have done some really interesting jobs. I am jealous!


----------



## Guest (Aug 12, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> FWIW a stallion is not problematic to keep.
> I have kept many a stallion over my years (including a 30" mini shetland), none escaped, none mounted mares they weren't supposed too and none were a menace in public. In fact many of my stallions were able to ride along side in season mares
> 
> It is not the fact that the horse still has testicles that is the problem, it is the fact that many people do not know how to manage them...hmmmm, now where have I heard that before?


They're really not, another misconception similar to the one we have about male dogs. I worked at a barn in Spain for 8 years where the majority of the male horses were intact. It was a huge barn, over 200 horses, and only about 16 of them were gelded males (none of the females had anything done obviously). Even some of our school horses were stallions and they did their up-down lessons just fine.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> They're really not, another misconception similar to the one we have about male dogs. I worked at a barn in Spain for 8 years where the majority of the male horses were intact. It was a huge barn, over 200 horses, and only about 16 of them were gelded males (none of the females had anything done obviously). Even some of our school horses were stallions and they did their up-down lessons just fine.


I worked on a Grand prix dressage yard for a couple of years (Dr. Wilfried Bechtolsheimer's) and the only geldings belonged to his daughter (Laura) the rest were in foal mares or stallions and we never had a single problem in the time I was there.
I did see issues with in some of the breeding facilities that i worked at, but that was because the breeding was the priority, not training so again, it was a behavioral thing, not a testicle thing lol

I have found that many people don't even try to teach a stallion how to behave because they are conditioned that stallions cause trouble so they should be kept separated and are expected to be hooligans.
Now whilst some stallions can be huge PITAs' they are the ones that should be considered for gelding 

The 30" stallion I mentioned in my post was a right bugger when he turned up. He would rear and wave his front feet in your face...after a few sessions he realised that this wasn't acceptable any more. His issues were not because he still had testicles, his issues were that no one up to that point had taught him how to behave...rearing mini's are cute dontcha know


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

In the UK most livery yards aren't set up for stallions. If you're a novice owner wanting to keep a horse at a livery yard where he can be turned out in company, especially in a mixed herd, he needs to be a gelding. Other cultures keep the stallions in and if they do turn out, it's on their own in a stallion pen, or paddock, not 24/7 in a mixed herd. It's better for the horses to be gelded and live out in groups, not be kept in isolation. Some people have had success keeping stallions in established herds, all boys together, especially if there are no mares in the vicinity, but most people wouldn't risk it. The occasional stallion can be kept with a gelding friend, even if there are mares about, but it's pretty rare again that anyone will risk it in the UK. Considering the lives many stallions lead, they'd be happier as geldings and many livery yards won't take stallions, even if they have their own. 

My friend has bought and trained young stallions from Europe and later had them gelded for their own good, so that they can live out in company, nothing to do with how they behaved around humans. She liked the pizazz and presence of them as stallions herself, but they could have better lives as geldings and she didn't intend to use them for breeding, so felt it was better for them to be gelded and I would agree. 

I would be surprised if Dr Bechtolsteimer's stallions were turned out in herds and quite surprised if the ones in Spain got to go out at all tbh. Valegro is a gelding though, I expect someone is kicking themselves, he'd make a fortune from breeding. He gets to go out in the field with a couple of buddies instead, I expect he prefers that.

In a natural herd there's usually one stallion, any mature colts form bachelor groups and are kicked out to live on the edge until they find their own herd. You couldn't really keep a few stallions in a group with a few (spayed) mares, unless you had huge expanses of land and were happy to let them fight it out on occasion. If no-one gelded there'd not be the places available for the boys, especially as they don't tend to live in the same home with the same buddies all their lives, but are expected to adapt to new places and new friends. If you have your own place, that would be different, you could make your own choices, but certainly in the UK there isn't a culture of stallion owning and most people don't have their own place. So I do support the gelding of male horses.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Blitz said:


> Lemmsy, you seem to have done some really interesting jobs. I am jealous!


Thank you Blitz 

Linguists have to specialise, so I've wangled mine so that they are animal behaviour, medicine and vet science related, to align with my other stuff. I'm an oddball, me


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No they weren't turned out in herds but they did go out in pairs or with one of Laura's geldings for company.
If you have to use the facilities of livery yards then you aren't in the right place to have stallions IMO
A stallion does not need to be kept in isolation, the ones that do should be gelded as they don't have the right temperament to be breeding IMHO
There are too many horses these days that get to keep their balls due to their performance record, especially in the racing world.


----------



## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Many countries all over the world do not geld horses with few issues although most are not serving stallions. Even serving stallions can be taught the difference between procreation and other activities. 

Years ago stallions in the SJ world et al were few and far between, now there are far more. Performance horses are often not turned out as often as say recreational horses or certainly not with the large numbers in other fields (pun intended) but they can and do lead very fulfilled lives. A lot depends on the facilities one has at ones disposal and of course if the owner(s) have the requisite skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to handle entire male performance horses. They vary, some even Arabs and Thoroughbreds can be pussy cats, others can be very difficult. Having owned and ridden stallions myself (Arab, Thoroughbred and Warm Blood) I like the "edge" they often have!


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Many countries all over the world do not geld horses with few issues although most are not serving stallions. Even serving stallions can be taught the difference between procreation and other activities.
> 
> Years ago stallions in the SJ world et al were few and far between, now there are far more. Performance horses are often not turned out as often as say recreational horses or certainly not with the large numbers in other fields (pun intended) but they can and do lead very fulfilled lives. A lot depends on the facilities one has at ones disposal and of course if the owner(s) have the requisite skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to handle entire male performance horses. They vary, some even Arabs and Thoroughbreds can be pussy cats, others can be very difficult. *Having owned and ridden stallions myself (Arab, Thoroughbred and Warm Blood) I like the "edge" they often have! *


This is the problem though - they do have an edge which makes them unsuitable for many riders and owners. And yes, I have owned a stallion as have many of my friends. oddly most of them have had them gelded after they had finished breeding with them so that they had an easier horse to keep.


----------



## Guest (Aug 12, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> it was a behavioral thing, not a testicle thing lol


LOL so very true, I've heard many variations of this adage over the years, and it rings true more often than not.



StormyThai said:


> A stallion does not need to be kept in isolation, the ones that do should be gelded as they don't have the right temperament to be breeding IMHO


Keeping stallions in isolation is arguably one of the reasons they have behavioral issues. If they learn at an early age how to act and what is expected of them, it's really not that big of a deal. But again, has to do with facilities, skills etc.

Not many performance horses in general get turned out in large groups simply because of the risk of injury is too great, but it is well known that ample turn out time is necessary for the horse's emotional state and thus performance. Just because a horse can't be turned out in a large group, doesn't mean the horse is never turned out at all or lives in isolation. 
Again we're back to management, facilities, skills and knowledge of the caretakers....


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

A young coloured performance horse was kept entire. He was kept in the herd with his dam and the other mares and babies. Eventually he was turned out with the geldings. He started mounting them and play fighting them. The geldings' owners complained, as they would. The horse was used to cover one mare, as he was guaranteed to throw colour. The resulting offspring was deformed, pts and the horse was gelded. Now he goes out in groups no problem. He was quite a nice stallion, gave no problem at all to his handlers, but they couldn't control what he did out in the field, unless they went out with him and kept him on a leash. He didn't have behavioural problems, he was doing what came naturally.

Otoh, there was a young, black cob colt, turned out with a gelding the same age. They grew up together and no problem. Until one day the now stallion broke down the fence and covered another owner's in season mare. Now he's gelded and lives out in a group.

Stallions are more difficult to manage, if not to handle. The horses are quite likely to end up spending their lives in isolation in the UK. Geldings are much easier and even they can be a problem. Many shows nowadays don't accept stallions, especially shows aimed at leisure owners. 

Why do you want these horses kept entire? What possible benefit to them, or to their owners could there be? In the UK (and even in cultures where stallions are common) I'm sorry, but it is very usual to keep stallions in isolation all of their lives and if they get turnout at all it's in a small pen, or paddock on their own. For why? So that someone can say they have a stallion? For presence and competition? Valegro does quite well on that score and he's a gelding. So was Milton, arguably the best show-jumper of all time. Charisma, possibly the best ever eventer. What about Arkle? All geldings. 

I can see no reason for anyone to keep a male horse entire, unless they plan on breeding him and you know what they say about breeding dogs, balls are not a reason. There's quite a few stallions out there who don't make very good stallions, but would make excellent geldings.

With a dog, neutering is unlikely to improve quality of life, with a horse, it's almost guaranteed.

If experienced people with their own property want to keep stallions to breed from, far be it for me to stop them. I try not to get involved too much with what experienced people get up to. But for your APO (does that include horses?) no way. I have years of experience, worked on studs, the first Andalusian I met was a stallion I looked after in the '70s, but would I have one myself? Nope. I have an entire horse, she's a mare, that's fine for me. Some places won't even take them, they want just calm, quiet geldings. Less hassle.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Where did i say, "*"hypothyroidism is natural" ?!?!*
.
I said it OCCURS, & it's TREATABLE - not _"it's perfectly OK". _As for Dx, please
see the approx 2,000 posts i've put up, minutely describing which tests [full 5 to
6-way panel, named & explained] must be done, & WHY they must be done,
which i've posted already over the past 3 years.
.
I've even stipulated which labs samples should be sent to, for the best possible
analysis, as GETTING the samples is the easy 1st step - getting actual analysis
is the critical 2nd step. Ur personal vet cannot possibly deliver the same quality
of analysis, nor can the local hospital, etc.
.
This thread isn't about Dx or Tx of hypothyroid, nor even about the genetics of
preventing it - i commented re the statement that "castration is UN-NATURAL".
Patently, so are many of the things we do, with, to & for our pets - of whatever
species.
Nobody desexes fish or birds because it's A, too risky [anaesthesia], B, too costly
for the result to justify it, & C, the differences between managing intact fish & birds
vs desexed fish & birds are minimal.
.
The exception? --- Capons - male chickens after their testes are removed. Why?
They squabble less, gain more wt faster, & don't run it off fighting or humping.
A well-grown capon is a gorgeous roasting chicken.
.
But the primary reason we desex mammalian pets is not behavior nor Mgmt -
it's because this individual is SURPLUS to the breeding needs of the owner,
of the species, of the breed - whatever the particulars; they aren't needed.
With approx 50% of the popn M & the other 50% F, there are loads of extras.
.
A truly good prospective dam is rarer & more valuable in herself than a dozen
Ms of comparable quality, but "studs" are more-highly valued because of the
STUD FEES they can generate. If bitches could pump-out eggs the way dogs
can pump out sperm, there'd be a more level comparison.
.
As it is, i recommend that anyone who doesn't intend to breed, desex their dog -
M or F, & their cat, M or F - because we've got plenty of both. The ASPCA, as
well as other humane organizations & animal-welfare groups, also recommend
desex for non-breeding dogs & cats.
So do many USA-veterinarians- i'd even venture "most", as in over half.

Additionally, i'd recommend pet-owners desex their *male* rat, Guinea pig, mouse,
etc, assuming that the Ms co-habit with Fs for social contact. [Here, too, many
shelter-groups & welfare organizations agree with me.]
This allows for mixed-sexes living without unwanted progeny, & avoids invasive
OHE on small animals. *Domestic ferrets & bunnies* are among the few species
where spaying all non-breeding Fs is a good idea -
F ferrets can die if they are intact & not bred; F pet-rabbits can be aggro when
left intact. [F meat-rabbits are generally bred for more bunnies to eat.]
.
.
.


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> Where did i say, "*"hypothyroidism is natural" ?!?!*
> 
> .


Right here- see your quoted post below:



leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> *Hypothyroid is easy to fix, but untreated can be fatal. Ditto diabetes, epilepsy, & many o-*
> *ther chronic-but-treatable problems. They're all "natural".* Snakebite, poisonous fungi,
> ...


As for your comment that 'it occurs and is treatable'- that doesn't not equate with what you said earlier, again above, highlighted in blue, that it is "easy to fix". It is not easy to "fix", for all the reasons I mentioned in my post.

I also think that the fact that you cannot get correct interpretation of thyroid readings from general practitioners, is evidence in itself that it is far from "easy to fix". Pet owners do, and I think, should be able to expect their practice vets to know how to appropriately test for thyroid function and interpret results. Unfortunately, they are unlikely to get that as it stands and yet, many people will take the GP at their word, so dismissal of results deemed normal (despite clear symptoms) and their dog will remain untreated or inappropriately treated. Pet owners should not have to send a blood sample across the pond to have their dog's results properly interpreted. Even when that does happen, it's not all plain sailing as some practice vets will be reluctant to take the specialist's interpretation on the grounds that they have never heard of them. I was fortunate to have a open minded, intelligent vet who was willing to research the specialist and actually look into their research and work.

You might be interested to know that the same diagnostic and treatment issues exist in the diagnosis of thyroid disorders in human beings too.

As for the relevancy of this to the original debate... you mentioned it 
Since I mentioned that specialists advocate thyroid screening for breeding dogs, it seems relevant since dogs with suboptimal thyroid function should not then be used. Now, that doesn't mean that they HAVE TO be "de-sexed" if in other respects it would not be in the dog's best interests- a conscientious, careful breeder should have no issues with managing their dogs, entire or otherwise to prevent unplanned pregnancies or otherwise.

Again, I'm still not sure why the insistence on a blanket policy on neutering ALL dogs unless breeding dogs or health conditions that prevent it?! And why the insistence on breeding dogs whilst they are still juveniles. For all the credible information you have provided, stating the benefits of the procedure at that age, there is counter, equally credible information that relates to drawbacks/concerns. It's up to the owner to decide, if they shall be neutering their dog, when the optimal time to do so will be for their dog as an individual. It's not a one size fits all.

Individuals are just that. Admittedly some people may not be sensible, but others are incredibly so.

You like to neuter your dogs as juveniles- fine! Go for it. Why the insistence that everyone else does exactly as you do?! Your dog is not their dog, you are not them, your situation is not their situation. I could go on...


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I've been wondering why the insistence on neutering young pups too. Maybe it's an area thing. If there's a lot of strays wandering about accidental litters and fights are more likely? If the only places you can take your dog are small, enclosed dog parks, it's best they're all neutered? It's easier in some areas to have the dogs done earlier rather than later and the experts want to reassure people that having their young pup neutered very early won't do them any harm? The rescues would rather not cope with another accidental litter and the best way of assuring that won't happen is to neuter, so they encourage everyone to do it asap? There has to be a reason L4L is so adamant about early neuter, when the rest of us want to take our time, do our research and think about it on an individual basis, and manage it without creating a bunch of accidental litters, roaming dogs, or inconveniencing anyone else?

So, why the insistence on neutering and especially on very early neuter L4L?


----------



## Charliegirl68 (Jul 17, 2015)

Just saw this on Facebook thought it was an interesting read 
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/three-reasons-to-reconsider-spayneuter/


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I've already said that desex as a blanket policy for any non-breeding pet who doesn't 
SHOW in venues that require intact-dogs [i-e, breed ring, AKC sports, etc], is in some
places in the USA, *mandatory -* & U don't get to choose at what age, either, as it's 
almost-invariably a deadline of puberty [6-MO] ---
IOW, any animal old-enuf to reproduce, that no one specifically retains an interest in
breeding, must be desexed by 6-MO, period.
.
Various cities & counties passed this local legislation BECAUSE the USA has lived with
a massive glut of pets that have ended their lives at considerable cost to taxpayers as 
euthanasia statistics in municipal shelters.
This was already a serious problem in the NINETEEN-SIXTIES.
It's a criminal waste of animals' lives, a cause of great suffering, & UK residents have no
idea what it's like to kill animals - healthy, normal, friendly animals - on such a wholesale
scale.
For over a decade, USA shelters killed FIFTEEN MILLION "surplus" pets per year, year in
& year out. The majority were young, healthy, & behaviorally normal - entire litters were
put in gas-chambers, vacuum-chambers, or given lethal injections. Because of the sheer
numbers of corpses, most municipal shelters had their own incinerators, to reduce bodies
to ash, which doesn't take up the volume of space & weight of a dead body & doesn't start
to decay as soon as it dies -- ash is easier to transport & disposing of it is simpler.
Rural & small-town shelters threw bodies in the local dump, & covered them with trash or
soil.
Things *have improved - *depending upon whose numbers U choose to believe, euthanasia
totals are down to *3 to 5 million per year, across the USA - *that's a reduction of either 66%
[2/3, from 15-M to 5-M] or 80% [4/5, from 15-M to 3-M]. And i'm very happy it's down - but it's
not enough.
.
five million dead pets per year is too many - even 3 million is too
many. And most of them result from 'unintended' litters.
.
That U personally as a member of this forum are better than the APO is undeniable.
I'm well aware of that; U ask Qs, U don't buy whatever dog-meal's on sale at the grocer's to-
day, U research vet-care options, U train, & U ask about behavior issues. U're pro-active.
Most pet owners are not.
.
WHAT AGE desex is done depends - what if this is a dog who is a prospective dam or sire?
Maybe s/he doesn't grow out as well as the breeder or owner hoped, & has heritable flaws
that are cosmetically serious or genuine health-issues. S/he might be desexed at 12-WO &
sold as a pet, desexed at 6-MO & sold as a pet, desexed at 2-YO when s/he becomes hypo-
thyroid... or maybe s/he grows into a gorgeous specimen, passes every health screen, has a
breeding career, & is desexed when s/he retires from stud or whelping.
Any breeder with an 8-YO dog who's a retired stud & still intact does him no favors.
.
As for pets never intended to breed, SHELTERS or RESCUES should desex before they re-
linquish any pet to an adopter, so age will vary - how old was the animal on intake, how old
was s/he when an approved applicant wants that individual?...
No shelter or rescue wants to vaccinate & then desex an animal that they will later euthanize
& incinerate or bury; it's a complete waste of effort. They vax PRN, & desex when someone
wants that particular animal, & is approved as an adopter.
So pups & kittens are desexed as young as they are legally adoptable & have an adopter; an
older animal is desexed when s/he has an approved adopter - that might be pre-pubertal, pu-
bertal, or adult. *90% of USA shelters & rescues desex before relinquishing, because ppl*
*lie, promise & then don't, "can't afford it" [T or F], etc.*
.
As for non-breeding pet dogs or cats, pediatric desex is safer, less traumatic, less stressful,
heals faster, bleeds less, scars less, & they're anaesthetized for a shorter time. Young pups
& kittens are up quicker, eating & playing, with less recovery time than pubertal or post-pu-
bertal animals.
Post-pubertal & adult animals actually have the greatest risks of desex complications - later
isn't "safer", it's less so.
.
If U keep Ur bitch-pup intact past her 1st estrus, U must balance that against her increased
risk of Pyo & mammary cancers, AND be willing to deal with the hassle, risk of preg, & efflu-
via of estrus.
If U keep a male-pup intact & never intend to breed him, my Q would be, why?
.
.
.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Why would someone choose not to get a dog neutered?? Here's some food for thought....

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055937#authcontrib
Demonstrates increased risk of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament rupture, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, amst cell tumours

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10225598
Demonstrates increased risk of hemangiosarcoma

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Lots of info; looks at 50 peer reviewd papers on effects of neutering. Demonstrates increased risks of all those mentioned above, as well as hypothyroidism, obesity, progressive getriatric cognitive impairment, prostate and uriniary tract cancer, incontinence, and adverse vaccine reactions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12433723
Demonstrates increased risk of osteosarcoma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9691849
Osteosarcoma again

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15577502
Anterior cruciate ligament injury

https://vetdoc.vu-wien.ac.at/vetdoc...enue_id_in=205&id_in=&publikation_id_in=12276
Increase risk of patella luxation

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
Refers to several studies (all referenced) showing risks, inc some not mentioned above

Personally, I feel for my dog, based on breed and gender, neutering before maturity is out of the question. If he is to be done at all it will be after 18months of age minimum. Why? Common health problems in rottweilers include hip dysplasia, cruciate ruptures, and similar joint problems, and the big nasty - osteosarcoma. ALL of which are significantly increased with castration, with the younger the age of neutering the higher the risk.

Not a risk I am planning to take. My boy will of course be socialised, trained and professional help sought if this becomes necessary, and appropriately managed. He sure as hell won't be running around unsupervised, impregnating bitches left right and centre. If this makes me an irresponsible owner in the eyes of some people - then perhaps they should have gone to specsavers!


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> If U keep a male-pup intact & never intend to breed him, my Q would be, why?
> .
> ...


This has been answered by many of us, many times, over many years and several threads. If you still don't understand why some of us choose to keep entire dogs I'm not sure what else to say :Meh


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

_*
*_


leashedForLife said:


> .
> If U keep a male-pup intact & never intend to breed him, my Q would be, why?


None of your damn business. My dog, His balls!:Smug


----------



## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> This has been answered by many of us, many times, over many years and several threads. If you still don't understand why some of us choose to keep entire dogs I'm not sure what else to say :Meh


I've pretty much given up even trying to debate with him/her on this issue!
It gets tiresome pretty quickly.


----------



## Guest (Aug 14, 2015)

I don't have to justify my reasons for neutering or not neutering my pets to anyone. As long as my dog's balls or ovaries doesn't affect anyone else or their pets, it's none of your (general you) business.


----------



## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

This subject always seems to strike raw nerves!

Responsible dog owners can keep dogs and bitches intact and it wont result in unwanted pregnancy. For, shall we say less the less careful owner neutering of bitches at least is probably a very sensible move.

I personally don't regret having duchess neutered at three years old, her age when I adopted her. Seasons are a pain in the ass frankly for both the bitch and the owners not to mention the risk of pyo. I do regret having Kerry neutered at 6 months old but it was a condition of adopting her from the RSPCA!


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think that's a perfectly reasoned argument L4L, thank you. I didn't know that about some areas of the US, must have missed it, but I can see their point. If the people can't behave themselves and are causing problems to the population at large, a law sometimes has to make them, even if said law also affects perfectly responsible, law-abiding citizens. I'm not that au fait with what happens in the US tbh. 

In the UK, I think it would be extremely hypocritical of councils or government to insist every pet owner has their dog neutered before 6 months old, whilst handing out licences to large commercial breeders aka puppy farms.

With improvements on surgical procedure (laparoscopic spay for example) and anaesthetics I don't necessarily agree that the op is more traumatic and slower healing in a healthy more mature dog personally and even if it were, imo long term is more important. I would need to know more. I think the linked info that describes the different rates of bone growth is also of concern. Hip and elbow displaysia are very common, even with health testing and scoring. I would want to know more about paediatric spay/neuter from those kind of aspects for myself, as opposed to teenage, or adult spay/neuter. 

I would expect rescues to rehome only after spay/neuter, or if the dog isn't healthy enough at the time, for a signed contract for when he/she is. No-one should be permitted to adopt an already abandoned animal in order to breed him/her and I can quite understand that rescues need to be sure.

It would concern me though if all pet owners were forced to spay/neuter and it was only permissible to breed pure-bred dogs that are shown, or dogs bred commercially through licensing, that kind of thing.

As I'd like to see more pet breeding, an end to extreme conformation and an end to puppy farming, for me a blanket neuter of the majority of dogs that are kept as pets wouldn't be something I personally would support. I would be interested in suggestions to address the problem of people surrendering, or abandoning their dogs, but at the moment in the UK, I wouldn't agree that pre 6 months old neutering of all pet dogs would be a desirable solution. For me there are too many ifs, buts and maybes, not only from the discussed health concerns, but also from a dog population concern (genetics/gene pools etc.)

It's not that hard to prevent unwanted litters and I don't agree that they are the main cause of full rescues. People who buy accidental pups and then abandon them to a rescue, would simply find them somewhere else. If no-one abandoned a dog and the puppy farms were closed down, accidental litters would be far less of an issue, even if they did end up in rescue centres for rehoming. I don't really see that as a reason for blanket neuter/spay of everyone's dogs, including those who are very responsible and whose dogs would never have an accidental litter.

From the health aspect, there is no undisputed proof that spay/neuter of a young puppy is good for his or her health. There are health risk arguments with all options, usually involving very, very small percentages. So from that point it should be up to the individual owner imo. Even if said owner is an idiot.

In most of the UK there isn't really a stray dog problem, as there used to be. We are no longer allowed to chuck our dogs out of the front door and leave them to it and a loose dog wandering the streets is usually soon collected by one of the authorities. From 2016 every dog in England will have to be micro-chipped.

It still astounds me that people talk of overpopulation in rescues and complain about unwanted and abandoned dogs, but still people can set up huge commercial affairs, supported by local councils who seldom set foot in them and breed hundreds of puppies, that aren't even close to being brought up in the recommended way that makes them suitable as pets and gives them a good start, and that's the good ones. Government should see sense over that before they concern themselves with whether Fred Bloggs' pet mongrel still has his balls, or has them taken at 6 weeks, 6 months, or 6 years, even if they should concern themselves with it. 

So we shall have to agree to differ on this one.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> If U keep a male-pup intact & never intend to breed him, my Q would be, why?


For health reasons.

You are entitled to your opinions on this matter. But so are others - and asking the question "why?" after many people have answered this directly to you not only in this thread, but in many other threads, many, many posts, with many facts linked in all those posts to support their opiniions, only serves to alienate people and does nothing at all to forward your argument.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

If U keep Ur bitch-pup intact past her 1st estrus, U must balance that against her increased
risk of Pyo & mammary cancers, AND be willing to deal with the hassle, risk of preg, & efflu-
via of estrus.
If U keep a male-pup intact & never intend to breed him, my Q would be, why?

Bilateral elbow dyplasia - diagnosed aged 13 months after spay at 6 months

click to play a few seconds of video



I

Bilateral cruciate rupture/TPLO surgery also aged 13 months resulting on months of surgery and separation from other dogs and distress





oh and not forgetting a luxating patella a few months later


----------



## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

LeashedForLife- you have loads of really awesome things to say in terms of what you contribute to the forum, but in this thread I'm starting to feel like I am repeatedly bashing my head against a brick wall.

For one thing, I'm not even sure if the below, quoted was addressed to me or not? Was it?



leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> I've already said that desex as a blanket policy for any non-breeding pet who doesn't
> SHOW in venues that require intact-dogs [i-e, breed ring, AKC sports, etc], is in some
> ...


OK fine, but this is a UK based forum! I'm all for comparisons but I don't see how the above points remotely help you in your promotion of juvenil desexing.
We are a tiny country compared to the USA. You guys have a population of aprox 318.9 million (2014), yet we have 64.1 million. The US is almost 38 times larger than the UK. Thus, our population density is huge compared to yours.

In 2014 there were 110 675 stray dogs in the UK (as recorded by all 397 local authorities). 
Of these:





An estimated 50% of stray dogs were reunited with their owners in this period, either by being reclaimed during the statutory local authority kennelling period (35%) or returned directly to their owner without entering a kennel (15%).

A quarter (26%) were passed on to welfare organisations or dog kennels after the statutory period.

This year 7,058 stray dogs (7%) were reported as having been put to sleep by authorities taking part in this survey. This is down from previous years.

7, 058 dogs is far too many, and neutering in the case of over-breeding is undoubtedly a good preventative measure. However, there is no reason to promote juvenile neutering specifically. 
Many rescues here use neutering vouchers very successfully, for example. 
Note that: 
Amongst the authorities responding, details were given for around half of reported destructions (55%). It was reported that 2,083 dogs were put to sleep due to behavioural problems or aggression, 1,042 due to ill health, and 755 under the Dangerous Dogs Act. 

You can read more here:
https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/whats-happening/news/stray-dogs-survey



leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> That U personally as a member of this forum are better than the APO is undeniable.
> I'm well aware of that; U ask Qs, U don't buy whatever dog-meal's on sale at the grocer's to-
> ...


As it happens, and here's the laughable bit, I don't have an intact male. I have a neutered male. He's a rehome. I also have a spayed bitch.

However if any of my future dogs remain intact until physically mature and/or remain so for life, it is because it is in their best interests, behaviourally, physically, medically etc. It's my call.

AGAIN, I state, for all of the evidence you can provide advocating juvenile neutering, there is counter evidence that point to detrimental effects. It is up to the individual owner to decide what to do/when to neuter for their individual dog.

Their dog, their choice, their call. You neuter your dogs when they are juveniles, your choice, your call.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Colette:

Why would someone choose not to get a dog neutered?? Here's some food for thought....

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055937#authcontrib
Demonstrates increased risk of hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament rupture, lymphosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, [mast] cell tumours

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10225598
Demonstrates increased risk of hemangiosarcoma

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
Lots of info; looks at 50 peer reviewd papers on effects of neutering. Demonstrates increased risks of all those mentioned above, as well as hypothyroidism, obesity, progressive getriatric cognitive impairment, prostate and uriniary tract cancer, incontinence, and adverse vaccine reactions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12433723
Demonstrates increased risk of osteosarcoma

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9691849
Osteosarcoma again

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15577502
Anterior cruciate ligament injury

https://vetdoc.vu-wien.ac.at/vetdoc...enue_id_in=205&id_in=&publikation_id_in=12276
Increase risk of patella luxation

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf
Refers to several studies (all referenced) showing risks, inc some not mentioned above

Personally, I feel [that] for my dog [due to his] breed & gender, [desex] before maturity is out of the question. If he's... done at all
it will be after 18-MO, minimum. Why? Common health problems in *Rottweilers* include hip dysplasia, cruciate ruptures, & similar
joint problems, and the big nasty - osteosarcoma. ALL of which [significantly increase] with castration, & the younger the age of
neutering, the higher the risk.
Not a risk I am planning to take.
My boy will of course be socialised, trained & professional help sought if this becomes necessary, and appropriately managed.
He sure as hell won't be running around unsupervised, impregnating bitches left, right, & centre. If this makes me an irresponsible
owner in the eyes of some people - then perhaps they should have gone to SpecSavers!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
.
Question - 
is the final cited link to the "canine sports" site & "S/N considerations" to Zink's notorious paper?
.
If so, please see the point-by-point rebuttal i kindly posted (above) to her DogAwful erroneous
conclusions, misuse of data, etc. Hers is not a published paper; it's badly written, misquotes stats,
& is neither more nor less than often baldly wrong.
.
.
As for the other horror stories, if the potentially-lethal options are all INEVITABLE, why do dogs
who are desexed outlive their intact-M peers, as a general rule?
A minor increase in risk isn't "certain death" - ppl consistently fail to account for the significance
of the risk.
.
And finally, the above recital makes it appear that *every* dog who is desexed will develop one or
another crippling joint or connective-tissue problem. Hooey. Many dogs neutered pediatrically,
B4 puberty, at puberty, after puberty, or as adults go on to live out their lives without any serious
joint issues until old age, IF THEIR OWNERS DON'T MAKE THE POOR CREATURES LOOK
LIKE HOGS READY FOR SLAUGHTER, & ruin their joints due to obesity & overloading.
.
given that 60% plus of the USA dog-popn is estimated to be at least overweight, if not morbidly
obese, that's a far-higher risk to their mobility & health than desex! As we all [should] know, fat
dogs are at far-higher risk for many, many health problems, including cancers, etc, AND joint
ills.
.
.
As for Rotts as a breed, their powerful predilection toward cancers of all kinds is notorious.
Again, that doesn't make it inevitable. Even male Rotts can be desexed & not necessarily be-
come hapless victims of a cruel fate.
.
Lastly, life is fatal. None of us, nor our dogs, lives forever.
1 in 4 dogs in the USA dies WITH CANCER PRESENT IN THE BODY - not the cause of
death, but there, nonetheless. Cancer is an adjunct of age; the lethality or aggressiveness of
any one cancer varies all over the map. If U live long-enuf, cancer is almost a foregone con-
clusion, not as the thing that will kill U, but as a fact.
.
Of course, U can always die young, make a pretty corpse for the wake, & be cancer-free, too.
Trauma is an option, but fatal trauma is often just as ugly as cancer. It's a tough choice.
.
.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Once again you are twisting my words and cherry picking the evidence. 

1. Yes you posted a rebuttal of one of my links. There were several others. My opinions on neutering are not based on One of them but the fact that there are several studies demonstrating potential risks of neutering.

2. "if the potentially-lethal options are INEVITABLE..."

Oh please, neither I nor anyone else has claimed they are inevitable. We have claimed that - based on existing science - there is an increased risk.

Whether or not that matters depends on the severity of the problem, the normal frequency of the problem, and how much the risk is increased.

3. Obesity etc. I have already given my personal choice and reasons - I will not be neutering before maturity, if at all, to minimise the risks.
I'm not an irresponsible owner, nor am I a complete moron - I am well aware of other risk factors and am also taking steps to minimise them. I can't abide fat dogs and intend to keep my boy at a healthy lean weight. I sought out a breeder with healthy dogs who utilises all relevant health tests. I feed a suitable high quality diet that isn't full of dodgy chemicals, grains, etc. I give bottled water because tap water in my area is fluoridated (fluoride accumulates in bones and may be associated with osteosarcoma). I will not be over exercising my pup, nor under exercising him as an adult.

Shockingly I have actually thought this through and I am doing all in my power to reduce unnecessary risks and help ensure a long and healthy life for my dog.

A canine obesity crisis in the US or the UK for that matter is not actually relevant to my personal situation.

4. Breed disposition is relevant as it affects the degree of risk. If I owned a breed with a negligible risk of joint problems, but a high risk of problems that could be prevented by neutering then I would be more inclined to neuter.

Given that my breed already has a high risk of those exact conditions that neutering has been shown to increase it is of particular concern.

It is also worth noting that castration of males has very few health benefits (compared to spaying bitches which has far more). So in this case I feel the limited benefits of neutering my male Rottweiler are far outweighed by the many benefits of keeping him entire.
Again, I am not anti neutering - if when he is mature I feel it would benefit him then it will be done, but NOT without good reason. Current fashion is not good reason imo.

5. Your final paragraph is distasteful to the point of being offensive. It is a frankly disgusting attitude imo.

What, so our dogs are gonna die anyway so feck it, don't bother worrying about their health? This surgery/diet/lifestyle whatever could cripple, sicken or kill my dog but feck it - he's gotta die of something?

I am welt aware my boy won't live forever.


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Damn phone!

To conclude...

I am well aware my boy won't live forever, and he is already at high risk of certain conditions. That doesn't mean I'm not going to do all I can to reduce those risks, keep his quality of life as high as possible, and base my decisions on current science rather than fashion.

Lastly, you can rave all you like about the overpopulation of dogs in the US and why this reason alone is a good enough one to blanket neuter every dog. But the US has been pushing/encouraging/even forcing neutering for decades - clearly it isn't working!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Colette:

... you can *rave* all you like about the overpopulation of dogs in the USA, & why this reason alone is... good enough... 
to blanket-neuter every dog. 
.
.
- I didn't *rave.*
I said, _Pet-overpopn is still a serious issue in large areas of the USA; _geographically, the South,
the rural interior, & the Southwest, specifically including Appalachia, any rural community in the
southern states from VA down [& the further South U go, the worse it gets], & rural areas of the
Great Middle & Southwest - where homes are scattered, & shelters have few resources.
These are precisely the places where shelters are unlikely to desex before relinquishing pets to
adopters.
.
POVERTY is a major factor - poor counties / parishes in Alabama & Mississippi are extremely
unlikely to "waste" tax-monies on proactive S/N of adopted pets, so they end up wasting money
from their skinny tax-revenues by euthanizing entire litters & abandoned adults, instead.
.
The UK may have forgotten that in N'Awlins when hurricane Katrina roared thru, *75% of pet*
*dogs & virtually every owned cat roamed at large. Under 60% were desexed. *N'Awlins isn't
rural, but it had a large popn of poor ppl - & even blue-collar or middle-class folks who could eas-
ily afford S/N didn't bother to do it all the time, & thought nothing of letting their pets [dogs or cats]
roam; that was local culture, bizarre as it might seem.
Predictably, Louisiana shelters were overwhelmed by massive waves of pups & kittens, & stray
pets - who can't be simply killed, but must be kept to allow the owner to [maybe] find her or him,
& take them back home... to let them roam again, next day. It was endless.
.
To add to the madness, *heartworm *is endemic in the Deep South, but few N'Awlins folks gave
their dog or cat any preventives - so virtually every single dog over 18-MO, & large numbers of
cats, had serious to severe heartworm infections to treat, even before they could be fostered or
re-homed.
That could easily treble the cost of rehabilitating a "Katrina pet". Pop-up shelters & volunteers -
not just dog-loving amateurs, but volunteer DVMs, volunteer vet-nurses, volunteer surgeons -
were asked to fix problems that were caused, not by the hurricane, but by the local culture of
ignoring problems.
"Benign neglect" is a polite term for the local pet-owning culture, which could quickly slide into
outright neglect when the dog's owner ignores a hot-spot that's grown to the size of one's palm
& is weeping copiously. [There were plenty of those, too.]
.
Louisiana shelters have improved considerably since the shock of Katrina's devastation, but
letting pets roam in N'Awlins is still common, & desex is a hit-or-miss affair, still - despite the
constant presence of roaming dogs & cats.
.
.
- I didn't say, *"Desex *_*every dog" - *_that's "blanket desex".
I said, *any non-breeding pet dog. *If U own a pet who will never be bred, U don't compete in
dog sports where intact is mandatory, etc, then desex her or him. That's the recommendation
of the ASPCA, & that of many USA vets, as well - i'm not a wild-eyed radical.
.
.
QUOTE, continued:
...but the US has [pushed, encouraged, even forced] neutering for decades - clearly, it isn't working!
.
.
Au, contraire - clearly it IS, or 15-million or more pets would still die as "surplus", every year.
I'm one of the many, many, many ppl who worked to get us down to 3 to 5 million euthanasias,
& i'm damned proud of that change.
.
The pet-popn is larger than it's ever been in terms of numbers; some 72 million pet dogs & 80
million pet cats, not counting pocket-pets, exotics, fish, birds, & horses, herps, etc.
That ignores the estimated _*90 million feral & abandoned domestic cats across the USA*,_
& the problems they cause - we're discussing owned pets, or pets in shelters or rescues.
.
If U live in New England, outside of farm districts, there ARE NO wholesale euths of litters of
unwanted pups & kittens. New England averages 70%-plus desexed pets, & IMPORTS pups
& kittens from overstuffed shelters in the Southern & Central states.
This is a Good Thing.
.
Similarly, urban centers in the South, Central, & Southwestern states, import pups & kittens
from their surrounding neighbors, reducing the load on crowded high-kill rural shelters.
San Francisco gets pups & kittens from outlying areas; sadly, Los Angeles is an exception to
the urban rule, with a massive pet-overpopn problem, & wholesale destruction of adults & in-
fants.
.
So yes, it's gotten much better - we have a way to go, but euth-numbers are shrinking still.
.
MANDATORY DESEX LAWS didn't begin until the late 1990s, & are still rare; S/N campaigns
began as posters in vets' waiting-rooms in the 1970s, & were only seen by those who went to
the vet. If U didn't own a pet yet, U weren't in the waiting-room.
And as we all know, *novice owners* are the group most-likely to conceive an unplanned litter,
or a litter to "let the children see the miracle of birth", or some such nonsense. So non-pet
owners are the folks we need most to reach - TV ads & on-line PSAs supporting S/N are a-
mong the routes to reach them.
.
.
.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

When a hurricane hits Lower Saxony, heartworm is rife and stray dogs are common, maybe I will change my ideas. Until such time I will not believing in individual choice for* my *own dog which I am personally responsible for.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Goblin said:


> When a hurricane hits Lower Saxony, heartworm is rife and stray dog
> stray dogs are common, maybe I will change my ideas. Until such time I will not believing in individual choice for* my *own dog which I am personally responsible for.


And I think the majority of dog owners ... and dare I say vets.... in Hungary would agree with you!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Magyarmum:

And I think the majority of dog owners ... and dare I say vets.... in Hungary would agree with you!
.
.
Sorry, i'm off-line 90% of the time due to my 6-nite/ 5-day live-in job, so rarely get
on PF-uk at all. :-( This makes replies very slow.
.
MagyarMum, I asked last week for some clarification on the statement above,
but U haven't posted yet.
What would most Hungarian dog-owners (& possibly vets) agree with?
Are there many stray or ownerless dogs in Hungary? Do shelters there have large
numbers of "surplus" dogs? -- Or are there few strays & not many ownerless dogs?
.
.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Magyarmum:
> 
> And I think the majority of dog owners ... and dare I say vets.... in Hungary would agree with you!
> .
> ...


,

Hi Terry

First, may I apologise for the delay in replying, My grandson's been staying with me and as well as eating me out of house and home my laptop got "borrowed" by him to do whatever it is teenage boys absolutely have do on them all day!

You probably know that Hungary is a small country of approximately 36 thousand square miles with a population of just under 10 million people 60% of whom live in urban areas, the other 40% living in small villages and working in agriculture ... 50% of the land in Hungary is under cultivation. Hungary is the 5th poorest member of the EU. unemployment is high and salaries low and many younger, educated Hungarians have left the country to work in more affluent EU countries.

Some 44% of households in Hungary own the 2.1 million dogs in the country. (46% in the US and 15% in the UK) Plus there is an estimated 200,000 stray or abandoned dogs (including ones which have strayed over the border from neighbouring countries) of which 12,000 are living in NGO shelters and another 20,000 in municipality pounds, the majority of which are located in the larger towns and cities. The nearest one to where I live is over 50 miles away. Although many of the shelters have a "no kill policy" due to lack of funding and overcrowding,, an estimated 35,000 dogs are euthanised each year. Dogs end up in shelters for much the same reasons as in other countries... lack of money, moving house or death/age of owner etc.

If you go to the Budapest University's familydogproject website and look under Publications 2009, you'll find a research paper by Michele Wan, Eniko Kubinyi. Adam Miklosi and Frances Champagne *" A cross cultural comparison of reports by German Shepherd Dog owners in Hungary and the United States of America"* which helps to explain some of the differences in attitudes of owners in both countries.

According to the survey ...
Only 26% of owners in Hungary compared to 88% of US owners considered their dogs to be pets.
Only 31% of Hungarian dogs lived indoors during the day compared to 88% in the US
Only 32% of Hungarian dogs slept indoors at night compared to 96% in the US.

Although perceptions of dogs are changing, traditionally a dog's function in life is to guard their owner's property and in many cases dogs are thought of as "just" another animal that shouldn't be treated as a four legged human being. In the village where I live, I'm considered eccentric because my two dogs are the only ones who live and sleep indoors. I've been asked several times how can I expect my dogs to protect me if I allow them to sleep in the house? . Attitudes however are changing and in the cities and larger towns it's becoming more common for dogs to live in the house particularly if the owner has both small and large breeds. I have several friends who own small dogs, like Chi's and Yorkies that live in the house, whilst their large dog, often a GSD or a Malinoise is kept outside as guard dog

Only 17% of dogs in Hungary are spayed/neutered compared to 44% in the US

The reasons why fewer dogs are neutered or spayed in Hungary than in the US is a combination of culture, lack of knowledge and money. If you look at the 9 breeds native to Hungary you'll see they're all either used for hunting or guarding/herding purposes and as such their owners would be male. Culturally many male owners still feel that to neuter a male dog is an affront to their masculinity. Of the 20 dogs living in my village only two are female. I own one who is spayed, the other one is a 10 year old GSD who I believe is also spayed because in the 8 years I've lived here she's never given birth. The other 18 dogs including my own 2 year old are all intact males. About 18 months ago a couple in the village acquired a young unspayed female who quickly produced 6 puppies. 2 puppies were given to relatives and the remaining 4 puppies and their mother were PTS by the owner, which is often the fate of many dogs in rural areas where a farm worker earns around 250 US$ and the cost to neuter/spay is about 70 US$ .Even if an owner is prepared to pay, getting a dog to a vet's surgery is difficult as few people own cars,and many local vets are only open on certain evenings because most of their day is spent making house calls on farms From a purely practical point of view it's far less complicated to have an intact male.

As the owner of a female dog, with a genetic eye defect, I felt it was my responsibility to have her spayed. Until I brought the subject up with him, my vet hadn't put any pressure on me to have her spayed and when I spoke to him I was told that he wouldn't consider spaying her until she was at least 18 months old, which was in line with my own thinking. Having since spoken with other owners, breeders and trainers it seems to be a normal practice. The question of whether or not to have my male dog neutered has never arisen simply because after discussing it with my vet, his breeder and trainer, we all agree it isn't necessary.

Apologies for such a long answer, but hope it answers some of your questions!

.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, MagyarMum:

...I apologise for the delay... My grandson's been staying... and... my laptop got "borrowed" by him to do whatever
it is teenage boys absolutely have to do on them, all day!
.
No worries, :lol: - I just got back, myself. I worked my 6-nite, 5-day week, then traveled 2-hrs,
worked a 6-hr pickup shift, got dinner to go, ate it at the bus-stop, traveled another hour-plus,
got home at 8:15 local time, ate dessert, & got on-line. Simple, right?
Tomorrow i'll leave for my live-in by 6 or earlier, to be on shift at 8-pm.
...

...Hungary is a small country, approx 36-K square miles; the popn is just under 10-M people, 60%... urban; ...40%
live in small villages & work in agriculture ... 50% of Hungary's land is under cultivation. [We're] the 5th poorest
member of the EU. Unemployment is high, salaries low, & many younger, educated Hungarians [leave] the country
to work in more affluent EU countries.

Some 44% of households in Hungary own the 2.1 million dogs in the country. (46% in the US & 15% in the UK).
.
Some US-stats on pet-ownership:
Am Soc for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals [a NYC, NY non-profit, not a national NGO]
https://www.aspca.org/about-us/faq/pet-statistics

Am Vet Med Assoc:
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Statistics/Pages/Market-research-statistics-US-pet-ownership.aspx

AVMA stats parsed:
http://dogtime.com/trending/17160-us-states-with-most-and-fewest-pet-owners-named

Am Pet-Products Manufacturers Assoc:
http://www.americanpetproducts.org/press_industrytrends.asp

_QUOTE, APPMA:_
_"_
_*2015-2016 APPA National Pet Owners Survey Statistics: Pet Ownership ... *_

_According to the 2015-2016 APPA National Pet Owners Survey, 
65% of U.S. households own a pet, which equates to 79.7 millions homes_
_In 1988, the first year the survey was conducted, 56% of U.S. households 
owned a pet._
_*Breakdown of pet ownership in the U.S. according to the 2015-2016 APPA *_
_*National Pet Owners Survey*_

_Number of U.S. Households that Own a Pet (millions)_
_Bird -------------------------------- 6.1_
_Cat -------------------------------- 42.9_
_Dog ------------------------------- 54.4_
_Horse -------------------------------- 2.5_
_Freshwater Fish ----------------- 12.3_
_Saltwater Fish --------------------  1.3_
_Reptile ------------------------------  4.9_
_Small Animal ----------------------  5.4_

_Total Number of Pets Owned in the U.S. (millions)_
_Bird -------------------- 14.3_
_Cat ---------------------  85.8_
_Dog --------------------- 77.8_
_Horse -------------------  7.5_
_Freshwater Fish ------ 95.5_
_Saltwater Fish -------- 9.5_
_Reptile ------------------ 9.3_
_Small Animal -------- 12.4_
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.

QUOTE, MagyarMum, cont'd:
Plus... an estimated 200K stray or abandoned dogs (including [strays who cross] from neighbouring countries)
...12K live in NGO shelters, another 20K in municipality pounds, [mostly] in larger towns & cities. The nearest to
[me] is over 50 miles away. Although many shelters have a "no-kill policy", due to lack of funds & overcrowding,
an estimated 35K dogs are euthanised each year.
Dogs end up in shelters for much the same reasons as in other countries... lack of money, moving house, death/
age of owner, etc.

[On] Budapest Univ's family_dog_project site, see Publications 2009; you'll find a research paper by
Michele Wan, Eniko Kubinyi, Adam Miklosi, & Frances Champagne, *"A cross cultural comparison of
reports by GSD owners in Hungary & the USA"*, which helps explain... different attitudes of owners in
both countries.
According to the survey ...
Only 26% of owners in Hungary considered their dogs "pets", vs 88% of US owners.
Only 31% of Hungarian dogs lived indoors during the day, vs 88% in the US.
Only 32% of Hungarian dogs slept indoors at night ,vs 96% in the US.

Although perceptions of dogs [here] are changing, traditionally a dog's function... is to guard their owner's
property; many [feel] dogs are... "just" another animal, [not to be] be treated as a 4-legged human being.
In my village, I'm considered eccentric... mine are the only dogs who live & sleep indoors.
I've been asked several times, how do I expect my dogs to protect me if I [let] them sleep in the house?
.
I get that attitude sometimes, too - my return query is, "Where do U keep Ur valuables?
In the yard / garden? In the garage? Garden shed? Buried under the lawn? What the
H*** is the dog "protecting" outside, the lawn mower? The garden hose? The in-ground
pool?"
The *human* is [are] the most-precious treasure of all, & s/he or they, plus 90% of their
stuff, are *in the house* - not outdoors on the surrounding lot. If U own livestock & expect
the dog to chase off predatory wildlife or stray dogs, then having the dog outside with the
stock from dusk on, makes sense. Otherwise, having the dog INSIDE with the family sil-
ver, the expensive re-sellable electronics, any easily-portable valuables, makes much
better sense.
A dog in the yard is more vulnerable to anyone with evil intentions. They are visible - &
audible. Chucking a hunk of meat [with a sedative tucked into it] over the fence is easy. 
Shooting, stabbing, or clubbing an outdoor dog is also easy.
To get to a dog INSIDE the house & harm them, trespassers must 1st get into the house.

QUOTE, cont'd:
Attitudes... are changing; in cities & larger towns, it's become more common for dogs to live in the house, par-
ticularly if [they own] both small & large breeds. I have several friends [whose] small dog [Chi, Yorkie...] lives
in the house, whilst their large dog, often a GSD or Malinois, [lives] outside as a [*watch*] dog.
.
Sorry, just a quibble: a watch dog is expected to sound an alarm, but not necessarily to
react with violence. A *guard dog* isn't expected to call for back-up; s/he is expected to
act immediately in response to any threat. Watch dogs bark sharply, then wait for some-
one to tell them what to do - is this a friendly visitor, a legit intrusion [a postie, repairnik,
utility inspector, ___ ], or an unwelcome / possibly hostile trespasser?
*Guard dogs* often skip the alarm, & go directly to cornering the intruder & holding her or
him in place 'til the homeowner / business owner / security guard / etc comes to collect
the intruder, or the guard dog simply bites until they flee or surrender.

Yes, i know folks who keep their Chi indoors & barely let the tiny dog walk on her / his
own, carrying the toy-dog almost everywhere; meanwhile, their Great Dane - with no
more coat than the Chi - freezes their a$$ off outside, or in warm weather, s/he's eaten
alive by mosquitoes, horseflies, & fleas. :---(
.

QUOTE, cont'd:
Only 17% of Hungarian dogs are S/N, vs 44% in the US
.
The % of US-dogs who are S/N varies by locale - New England has the highest
S/N rate, with almost 90% of F-dogs desexed, & about 75% of M-dogs desexed.
The Deep South, outside of some major cities, has the lowest desex rate, rivaled
by the rural poor in the Southwest & Midwest [the reservations, in particular, are
awash in intact free-roaming abandoned & feral dogs, & very few are S/N].
Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, rural Florida, Louisiana, New Mexico, Arkansas,
Texas, all have significant numbers of free-roaming owned or abandoned or feral
dogs, many intact. 
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
The reason fewer Hungarian dogs are S / N vs the US is a combo of culture, lack of knowledge, & [lack
of] money... Look at the 9 breeds native to Hungary -- all used for hunting, guarding, or herding, &... their
owners would be [mostly] male... many male owners still feel neutering a male dog is an affront to their
[own] masculinity.
.
.
Oh, yeah! - I hear that a lot, suggest they desex their rude / reactive / highly aggro
M dog, & M owners often react as tho I'd pulled out a pair of cord-crushers & waved
them at his crotch suggestively. _*"Eeek!..." *_with his legs crossed & both hands palm-
out defensively. Good grief, it's the DOG's testes we're discussing - get some bound-
aries, dude.
.
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
Of the 20 dogs living in my village, only 2 are female. I own one (spayed), the other is a 10 -YO GSD; 
I believe she's also spayed -- in the 8 yrs I've lived here, she's never given birth. The other 18 dogs, in-
cluding my own 2-YO, are all intact males. About 18 mos ago, a local couple acquired a young F who
quickly produced 6 pups; 2 were given to relatives. The 4 remaining & their mother were PTS by the
owner... the fate of many dogs in rural areas, where a farm worker earns around 250 US$ & S/N costs
about 70 US$ 
Even if an owner is prepared to pay, getting a dog to a vet's surgery is difficult - few people own cars, &
many local vets are only open on certain evenings - most of their day is spent making farm calls. From a
practical POV, it's far less complicated to have an intact male [vs a F who will have biannual estrus].
.
The very reason i got my 1st personal dog [when i was 10-YO] was that he & his sister
were abandoned in our farm driveway, & my mother wouldn't have another intact-F, nor
was she willing to spend the $$ to spay her.
The M pup became my dog; the bitch went to the local shelter, & was promptly adopted.
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
As the owner of a F with a genetic eye defect, I felt it was my responsibility to have her spayed. Til I brought 
the subject up, my vet [did not] pressure me to spay her, & when [asked, he said] he wouldn't consider spay-
ing her until she was at least 18-MO, which was in line with my own thinking. Having since spoken to other
owners, breeders, & trainers, that seems to be [SOP for age of desex].
.
.
Delaying spay until 1st-estrus already raises the F's risk for mammary cancer over her
lifetime; spay prior to the 1st estrus makes her risk of 'breast-cancer' near nil. Waiting
for 18-mos to spay a F means an ongoing risk in the short-term for complications of e-
strus: pseudopregnancy / false pregnancy, which is both behavioral & physical; pyo-
metra, a potentially lethal uterine infection; & UTIs, which can cause incontinence &/or
become chronic or even systemic.
Unless i was holding a bitch to see how she grew-out as a prospective dam, I wouldn't
wait for 18-mos. I'd spay her prior to 1st-estrus for the marked safety-factor re breast
cancer - a highly significant advantage for her health & lifespan.
.
.
QUOTE, cont'd:
The question of whether or not to [desex] my M dog never arose; after discussing it with my vet, his breeder,
& [his] trainer, we all agree it isn't necessary.
Apologies for such a long answer, but hope it answers some of your questions!
.
Urs was a terrific answer, & i very-much appreciate it - especially the profile of Hungary's
area, popn, wages, village vs urban numbers, & attitudes toward dogs. Very enlightening,
thank U for taking the time. ::thumb-up::
I'm off to my 6-nite, 5-day live-in job... If anyone is so inclined, i'd be thankful for prayers
asking for physical endurance & emotional patience for me, as i need more of both. ;--}
.
.
.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Noticed this thread kept popping up on the first page, so finally decided to read it. Got to about P12 or 13 and skim-read from there.

Having read this thread, however, it seems that I've been incredibly fortunate with my 2. Both of mine are spayed/neutered as part of the contract with the rescue/pound that I got them from. They were both "done" at around the 1 year mark and so far *touches wood*, neither have suffered from any adverse affects. Given this thread, I feel rather fortunate that it was a contractual requirement of rehoming the dogs, and ultimately, not my decision to make. I do feel for RPH, being in the same boat and having to deal with the consequences and the guilt, not to mention the uncertainty that it might be/might not be because of the early spay. I can only imagine how traumatic that must have been.

It seems the argument or the worry for the OP (whose dog, I realise, has had her season now) was intact dogs coming calling from a 3 mile radius during her bitch's season, and the counter argument that even neutered males do this. I can't help wondering how many of these (neutered) males have been allowed to mate before neutering? Or for that matter, intact males? I don't mean to "have a go" or point the finger at any owner for their decision to neuter or not, just wondering if mating before a neuter makes a difference in the behaviour of a dog who picks up the scent of an in-season bitch. Hanging around the Breeding forum, the consensus seems to be that being allowed to mate changes the dog psychologically. Max was never allowed to mate in the interim between coming home with us, and having the op, and he's never made a pest of himself around bitches - in season or not. He's simply not interested. Anecdotal evidence? Maybe, but if I can't trust my own experiences, what can I trust? Posting scientific data and peer-reviewed studies is great, but the individual owner is going to believe their own experiences even before any scientific evidence.

Even after her spay, Milly was occasionally pestered by offlead males for around a year after her op. Now ... not so much, although only yesterday a shih-tzu in the next street was showing a bit too much interest in her nether regions. Nothing happened because I simply led Mill away and the person walking the other dog (the dog isn't his own - it's his sister's) shepherded his charge away too. 

Going camping with in-season dogs (or not): Given my recent experience of camping with the dogs, I'm glad Milly was spayed long ago. It was enough of a worry for me leaving the dogs locked in the tent while I went to spend time with family, never mind having the added worry of leaving an in-season bitch alone with an elderly male (castrated) dog in the confines of a flimsy piece of fabric. I am aware that DD has said that she wouldn't have taken Penny camping if she was in season, and, again, that it's a null and void point anyway, given that she came into season last month, but as it was brought up in the thread, I still feel my statement is a valid one.

While I'm looking into what (if any) breed/s I'll be going for next, I imagine that, for me, approaching a breeder will be a last resort. I'm not interested in showing or breeding, and even if I wanted a puppy, I could easily find one in a rescue, so I imagine that any and all future dogs will either come with a contract to spay/neuter, or will have already been "done" before they come home with me.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, ouesi:

I'm in the US & have never heard of castration without GA. We don't even geld horses
without GA. At least, none of my vets did...
.
.
I spoze the UK folks will have to check UTube for any clips of the videos, bummer;
there are 2 vet-shows on USA cable-TV i've only watched for 4-weeks, as my new
client gets these channels [Natl Geo WILD & Animal Planet].
.
The shows are "Dr Jeff, Rocky Mt Vet", & "the Incredible Dr Pol" or its more-recent
sequel, the hour-long "Dr Pol, Deja-moo". Both practices have large livestock clients,
& do a lot of large-animal vet work, with small-animal / pet as the smaller fraction of
their caseload. Both have shown many instances of GA-free desex, in many species:
mini-pig, donkey, bull > steer in calves, gelding horses, ram-lamb > wether, billy goat
to castrato, AND... male pups or kittens.
All the GA-free desex have been castrations [not OHE / spay ops].
.
In livestock they can administer an injectable paralytic [ketamine], inject a local numb-
ing agent in the scrotum, apply clamps to crush the spermatic cord *and!* blood ves-
sels to & from the testes; the clamps stay on for approx 5-mins to start a clot, & then
they slit the scrotum, pop out the testis, pull the crushed cord remnant out with it, re-
peat on the other side, wash the incisions with antiseptic, inject an antidote, & he's off.
.
This morning, Dr Brenda of Pol's vet-practice was shown castrating 7 bull calves in a
head-clamping chute - she used no paralytic nor any local; each calf was walked into
the chute, secured with the V behind their head, tailed [hold the tail up], cord-clamps
were used to crush the blood vessels & spermatic cord, & they were released to let
the testes atrophy. They went right back into the general herd, out to pasture.
.
Most livestock castrations are confined to COOL weather to prevent fly-blown inci-
sions if the testes are removed surgically. So-called "bloodless" castrations using an
elastrator [basically a round very-tight rubber band, stretched open with a special tool
& slipped over the entire scrotum before being popped on the pedicle between testes
& scrotal sack] should also only be done in COOL weather, as the dying tissue inevit-
ably attracts flies who lay eggs & maggots develop, or infection is carried to the band-
ed open tissue, where it splits as it dies, by the flies' feet, mouths, & hairy body parts.
.
Livestock who are castrated with a crusher don't need stitches, & cattle or horses who
are gelded are generally left open to allow the incision to drain, not stitched. Partly to
reduce handling / restraint & stress to humans & stock, & partly b/c a steer or colt can't
LICK his scrotum, while more-flexible dogs & cats can & will - no cone is needed for a
colt, calf, pig, or sheep post-desex to keep them from messing with the wound.
.
"Dr Oakley, Yukon Vet" shows more wildlife & pets than stock, altho she also makes
horse & cattle farm calls, as well as the occasional llama, yak, bison, etc.
4-H doesn't seem to be as big a thing for Alaskan kids as it is in other areas of the
U-S, where rabbits, chickens, pigeons, goats, pigs, calves, sheep, etc, are common
projects for teens & pre-teens in rural or even suburban areas.
But even Dr Oakley has performed the occasional castration without GA on camera.
.
.
.


----------



## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

I don’t watch TV.
I post about my own experiences. Since the early 90’s I’ve worked in a show barn, a quarter horse racing barn, a boarding barn, and I also worked as a vet tech for a large animal vet. In 3 different states. Never saw a horse gelded without GA.
As a kid I worked at a barn in Spain where none of the horses were gelded. The 5 geldings we had were school horses who came that way. The rest of the 200+ horses were stallions and mares, and as a 14 year old kid I handled all of them. They were fine as was I.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
from the link posted previously,
http://weimaranerclubofamerica.org/main/pdf/HMColumn0112.pdf
QUOTE:
.
...the Canine Behavior & Research Questionnaire was used to collect [data] on 7 be-
havioral characteristics for 10,839 dogs.
C-BARQ is a qualitative behavioral assessment instrument created by James Serpell &
his colleagues at the Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Univ of PA, Phila,
PA.
At this time, it's the only behavioral assessment questionnaire that's been peer-reviewed
& found... reliable and valid (Hsu & Serpell, 2003).
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
For those who haven't yet done so, please take the C-BARQ Urself for Ur dog & see
what U get. My Akita, who'd done pet-therapy visits in hospitals & nursing homes for 2
years, was rated as 'unreliable' & in need of B-Mod intervention.
A number of USA-apdt trainers on the national members-chat list tried the BARQ shortly
after it was published, myself among them, & we pretty much concluded it was slightly
better than casting bones or reading goat entrails -- only cuz it was less distasteful, not
because it was more accurate in its assessment.
.
.
QUOTE from the PDF:
"Behavioral characteristics of intact male and female dogs were compared with those of
4 groups of neutered dogs: [desex] at or before 6-MO, between 7 & 12 MO, between
13 & 18 MO, & after 18-MO.
Our data showed that the behavior of neutered dogs was significantly different from that
of intact dogs in ways that contradict the prevailing view. Among the findings, *neutered *
*dogs were more aggressive, fearful, excitable, & less-trainable* than intact dogs."
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
.
.
As my overall impression of *C-BarQ* is that it's a joke re its value in assessing a dog's
'personality' / temp & behavior, I'm already sceptical. Being told neutered Ms are made
*more aggro* by desex flies in the face of my personal experience, & that of many other
trainers, some of whom I know personally/ in the flesh, others via the Web.
That personal experience is in addition to many, many studies that found intact Ms to
be MORE, not less, aggressive than their intact counterparts.
.
Lastly, add the allegation that castration makes M dogs "more excitable & less-trainable"
than intact-Ms, & i think this is a complete crock. It makes no logical sense.
The conclusions of this study are diametrically opposed to the statistics generated by
many other studies of pre-castration & post-castration behavior.
.
I, too, would love to know if this data has been replicated [without the use of C-BarQ] -
& i really doubt it has been or ever will be.
.
.
.


----------



## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Why is so much of the text crossed out? Or is my computer playing up? Or my eyes?


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Standing castration of young horses is quite common in the UK I would think. Sedation and local anaesthetic in their stable. Supposed to be less likely to cause complications. I've only witnessed one horse done under a GA and he was an older horse, about 6 years old iirc. all the others were youngsters castrated standing.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, ouesi:

I don't watch TV.
I post about my own experiences. ...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
.

OK. My own experiences:
.
* on our family farm, we did home-gelding on our ram-lambs at between 7 & 10-DO.
No local, no GA; there was still snow down, so no insects to carry bacteria. Wash
the scrotum, antiseptic wash after, 2 small cuts, pop out testis, s-t-r-e-t-c-h the cord
& vessels til they snap /back into the abdomen, antiseptic wash, SPRAY with blue
powder coating to repel bacteria, leave incisions open to drain & heal.
If one bled for more than a minute, 2 at most, we used styptic powder & puffed it into
the incision, which - as it _STINGS!_ like the devil - invariably got much more of a reac-
tion than the actual cutting / removing steps. Maybe 1 in 4 or 5 needed styptic.
Never had an infection, never had complications.
They stayed in the flock, suckled, romped, & acted perfectly normal. All males who
weren't kept to breed were sold *as* lambs for slaughter; most were sold for Easter,
to the local Greek Orthodox community in Bethlehem, PA.
.
.
* college, sophomore year - Sheep Production
The prof did a castration on an approx 40 to 50# ram-lamb [abt 5-MO]; sterilized
the blade, NOT the skin; no local, no GA, no antiseptic wash before or after. Cut,
popped out the testis, BIT the stretched cord & vessel with his premolars [side of
the mouth] to crush them & help clot, repeat.
The lamb fussed more about being restrained [sitting on his butt on a table with his
forelegs folded] than he did over the cuts or pulling the testicles. He bled maybe a
1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon, total, & was put back in the flock after a wipe with med-alcohol
on the incisions. He seemed completely unfazed, & was eating in a minute or 2.
.
Beef / Dairy production:
Same prof castrated 2 [6 to 9-MO] bull calves, using a squeeze to restrain them: 
wiped the scrotum on the incision path with alcohol, used a sterile blade, cut, pop
out the testis, PULL the cord / vessels to stretch them & break, spray blue-powder
to deter insects, let 'em go. Open incisions, no drugs. Back to the herd.
.
same year, Horse production, spring term:
different prof, virtually the same technique - 9 to 12-MO colt, no GA, no local; main
difference, he washed the scrotum with warm soapy water & rinsed it. Cut, pop out
testis, pull / snap the cords, repeat; powder from an aerosol can, let him go.
Penn State kept [keeps?] a small herd of Quarter horses [AQHA] for show & breed-
ing, he was one of their get.
.
.
* Dairy farm where we got our milk:
they reared pigs to hogs, & steers for beef, alternating; every year we reserved a
half-beef or half-hog. They did their own gelding when the animals were very young.
No local, no GA. Like the lamb at PSU, the young pigs were more upset by restraint
than by the cuts or the pulling. They screamed bl**dy murder at being held, & didn't
seem to notice being cut at all.
The calves were restrained with halters tied to a post, the rear ankle tied to the halter
to put them on 3 legs, & again, they fussed more about that than about being cut.
They'd try to kick when their rear leg was being tied up, & didn't even flinch when the
scrotum was cut. Left open to drain, blue-powder.
.
.
The only animal i ever saw bleed more than a total of a teaspoonful [both incisions]
was an 18-MO colt who kept kicking his own belly - i suspect it was the kicking that
kept him from clotting promptly, he acted as if the incision was a fly-bite, & kept strik-
ing upward.
He was gelded while standing, on all 4s, & i think that was a mistake; the cuts seem-
ed to bother him only AFTER the testes were gone, & that's when he began to kick.
They looped his rear fetlock, tied it to a loop on his neck over his shoulders, kept him
3-legged for about 5-mins, sprayed the scrotum with styptic powder followed by a top-
ical numbing agent, then blue-powder, untied his ankled when he clotted, & turned him
out solo in a clean paddock
He could see & smell other horses, but couldn't touch any, nor could they touch him.
[No fence-fighting, kicking air / fence, biting, etc.]
He stayed in the paddock for 72-hrs, then was turned out with his dam only for a week,
to prevent any hard play with other youths. He was tender for several days, but never
went off his feed; he stood spraddle-legged with his rear hooves planted slightly apart
for about 12-hours.
He didn't swell significantly or show any other signs of inflammation; again, done in cold
weather, no insects flying.
.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, bogdog:

Why is so much of the text crossed out? ...
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
.
I wish i knew! - it just happens, sometimes, & never shows up in draft, drabbit. 
:ShakesHead: :--( Only after i post - very frustrating.
.
.
.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I would say, castrate an animal without anaesthetic when you're prepared to be castrated yourself in the same fashion.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Sweety:

I would say, castrate an animal without anaesthetic when you're prepared to be castrated yourself in the same fashion.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
.
.
Lest we forget:
- circumcision, a much-more extensive slice, was done in hospitals for over a century
with no prior local numbing, nor pain-relief after.
- i don't *know* for a fact, but suspect, that ritual circumcision in Orthodox Jewish families
is still sans anaesthetic. If anyone can provide factual info, i'd appreciate it, TIA.
.
 - so-called "female circumcision", actually genital mutilation often with extensive *internal*
cutting, is still done with no asepsis, no anaesthetic, & girls between 5 & 15 are the victims.
Hemorrhage, especially of older girls, & death are not rare; severe infections are also pretty
common. Average age is 6 to 9-YO.
.
- Childbirth & pain-relief, even for surgery [episiotomy, Caesarean] was controversial for
many years; conservative Christian churches fought pain-relief tooth & nail, as the Bible 
decreed "they shall bring forth their children in pain". [Genesis, after the ousting from the
Garden / Paradise]
It wasn't until the mid-1950s that pain-relief became somewhat accepted, even tho gas
[nitrous oxide] & other GAs [ether] were available starting in the late-1800s.
.
.


----------

