# FIP info needed



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I have just had a phone call from a woman who neds some info on fip.

This is what she told me;she has a 6month old stud boy who has just had a positive result come back for fip.She has two girls who are or were ok before the stud come,she knows her girls were clear as she had had them snap tested she said.

The stud is getting tested again to be sure.

I told her she is probably best to test the girls now..i know the is no test to say yes or no for sure.

Imnot sure what to advise her.

She says she may be going to put the stud to sleep as she doesnt want him around her cats ' i know may be too late for that' and she doesnt want to give him away as she doesnt want to put someone else through it.

Whats chances her girls will now have it? Could they be lucky enough to have not caught it?

Is there any point in removing the stud right now?

She will be letting the breeder know later of the stud.

Thing is i know the breeder of the studs shes well known and does alot of showing,shes a good breeder and im shocked tbh,should people be worried to be near her cats at shows? Obviously this is if it has come from her end.

Its so hard cause it could have come from anywhere couldnt it.

I guess this woman needs to ask the breeder if she has had and sick cats.

What a nightmare to be in this woman has only just started really.

Any advise given i will forward to her thanx guys.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Just to be clear - has the stud been unwell which has prompted an FCoV test which is positive and so a presumptive diagnosis of FIP has been made taking into account other clinical findings/symptoms?

Or has he just had an FCoV test which shows he is FCoV+ ?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

What a dilemma  As far as I understand it there is no test for FIP itself, so when you say the boy has tested positive do you mean a high titre for coronavirus? This doesn't mean it will automatically become FIP. A snap test doesn't check for coranavirus either as far as I am aware.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> she has a 6month old stud boy who has just had a positive result come back for fip


Is she SURE or does she mean the cat has tested +ve for coronavirus. There's a HUGE difference. This really does have to be the first thing you check with her.



> Whats chances her girls will now have it? Could they be lucky enough to have not caught it?
> Is there any point in removing the stud right now?


There's no way of knowing if the other cats are FCoV +ve without testing.



> She will be letting the breeder know later of the stud


I suppose there is good reason to do so IF she can furnish a set of test results for ALL her cats showing they were FCoV -ve immediately before the new kitten came in. If she can't then there's no way of knowing who infected whom.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lots of info on this page: Feline Infectious Peritonitis and Coronavirus Web Site

And here: Feline infectious peritonitis (FIP)



> *How do cats get coronavirus?*
> 
> Coronavirus is ubiquitous among cats and infection with the virus is particularly common where large numbers of cats are kept together. It is estimated that 25 to 40 per cent of household pet cats are infected. This infection rate increases to 80 to 100 per cent of cats kept in multi-cat households, rescue and breeding colonies.


In light of the above, even if she decides not to use him as a stud I see no reaon not to neuter him and rehome him as a pet, unless he is actually unwell.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Just to be clear - has the stud been unwell which has prompted an FCoV test which is positive and so a presumptive diagnosis of FIP has been made taking into account other clinical findings/symptoms?
> 
> Or has he just had an FCoV test which shows he is FCoV+ ?


He was ill laast week so went into vets who tested for a few things some test were ok which were clear of cat flu and felv..she was waiting the result of the aids one i take it that the aids one is the fip test?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

No, FeLV (Felinine Leukaemia) is different to FCoV (Coronavirus which very occasionally mutates to FIP) is different to FIV (Feline Immunodeficiency). If you look on the second link I gave, to the FAB's website, you will see links down the left for these and many more.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> He was ill laast week so went into vets who tested for a few things some test were ok which were clear of cat flu and felv..she was waiting the result of the aids one i take it that the aids one is the fip test?


No. AIDS is known as FIV in cats so that test would specifically be for FIV. There is no FIP test, just a coronavirus test (FCoV) which should, in any event, never, ever be used as a stand alone method in 'diagnosing' FIP.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Feline Aids - FIV and FIP are totally different. Does she mean he is positive for FIV?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> What a dilemma  As far as I understand it there is no test for FIP itself, so when you say the boy has tested positive do you mean a high titre for coronavirus? This doesn't mean it will automatically become FIP. A snap test doesn't check for coranavirus either as far as I am aware.


Ill have to get more details so if he had high titre for coronavirus is his breeding days still over?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Absolutely not. Though it is the decision of his owner on how she wants to proceed with the management of her cats should he (and her girls) be coronavirus positive.

The vast majority of breeders do not routinely FCoV test under normal circumstances and the majority of multi cat households will have cats that are FCoV+ or have been coronavirus positive at some point. 

The level of a titre is not, in itself and in an otherwise healthy cat, indicative of whether or not the cat will go on to develop FIP. In an unwell cat, possibly where the vet suspects FIP, then the level of the titre MAY have some bearing on diagnosis... but that's never clear cut.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

ok i have just called her and she said ..iv forgot how she worded it something like this 'the cells were low indicating the cat has fip or has potential for it to develop into fip'

The stud is getting tested again soon and her girls are getting tested tonight.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> ok i have just called her and she said ..iv forgot how she worded it something like this 'the cells were low indicating the cat has fip or has potential for it to develop into fip'
> 
> The stud is getting tested again soon and her girls are getting tested tonight.


I'm not, in the least, disputing what you've been told as it's usually difficult having a three way conversation and relaying specific info. If it's a repeat FCoV test 'soon' then I can see no - to very little - point in this being done. It may be that, if FIP is suspected, the vet wants to run other blood tests, the results of which are used as indicators for/against an FIP diagnosis. But unfortunately there IS no absolute diagnosis other than post mortem.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> iv forgot how she worded it something like this 'the cells were low indicating the cat has fip or has potential for it to develop into fip'


Might be an idea to direct her towards this forum so the information can come directly from her. I'm struggling to know exactly what she might have meant by 'the cells are low etc'.

It is perfectly possible for her to clear coronavirus from her household if she wishes and she could then go on to use the boy for breeding.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But unfortunately there IS no absolute diagnosis other than post mortem


True but don't Glasgow run a thing called a full FIP panel? I think they test a lot more than just an antibody level.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I'm struggling to know exactly what she might have meant by 'the cells are low etc'.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I wondered that and thought possibly from abdominal fluid?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> True but don't Glasgow run a thing called a full FIP panel? I think they test a lot more than just an antibody level.


They do, for sure. I just worry that, even in this day and age, some vets don't seem terribly clued up on FIP and its diagnosis, especially when you hear the words 'possibly needing to be put to sleep'. But of course we only have a small part of the picture.

I didn't particularly understand the vet having apparently said the test result indicates that the cat may go on to develop FIP. In my book, he either does or he doesn't at this current moment. It was that really which set off an alarm bell with me.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Maybe i used wrong word does low antibodies make more sense?

How would she get rid of the coronavirus through time? Or cant you?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Yep shes just said anti bodies and white blood count were low.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Maybe i used wrong word does low antibodies make more sense?
> 
> How would she get rid of the coronavirus through time? Or cant you?


Unfortunately not. There are a number of different blood tests (and on abdominal fluid which may or may not be present) that the vet might have carried out.

Whatever the outcome, and obviously I hope it's a good one for your friend and her cat, before even embarking upon eradicating FCoV from her cats I personally think its very worthwhile to research the implications of having achieved that. Eliminating FCoV, particularly where just a few cats are kept is a relatively easy task and may well require nothing more than normal, routine hygiene over many months, possibly longer, to generalise. However, the implications of keeping it that way alongside carrying out normal breeding activities such as showing, buying another kitten/kittens perhaps, taking queens out to stud, the question of placing FCoV negative in homes where they may well be FCoV infection present. I'm not saying any of these aspects should be a barrier to a breeder trying to eliminate FCoV - just that the implication of keeping it that way are often far more difficult than many people realise.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

thanx is there any point in her asking the breeders of her cats to test their cats to prove where its possibly from?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> thanx is there any point in her asking the breeders of her cats to test their cats to prove where its possibly from?


Just my personal opinion; others may disagree... but I cannot see the point at the moment. I understand her worry completely but these situations are generally complex. Asking the breeder to test her own cats at this moment in time is likely to generate a negative attitude and questions... such as were your friend's two girls coronavirus tested prior to the introduction of the male kitten? Were they negative? Have they been out to stud/shows since being tested negative and were they retested afterwards? Have they been in contact with any other cats? Do they have outdoor access? My point being is that in the majority of cases it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to prove where FCoV infection originated.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Great info tar,the girls were not tested for coronavirus but were for felv girls have always been in good health but the stud always a little sickly.Just could be from anywhere couldnt it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Since the (potential) stud has always been sickly I feel it best he is neutered and found a pet home.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Why on earth is a breeder using a sickly stud?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I didn't particularly understand the vet having apparently said the test result indicates that the cat may go on to develop FIP


I don't understand it either and I'll bet the veterinary research world would sure like to know his secret if he's found a way to tell with just a few blood test results.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Why on earth is a breeder using a sickly stud?


Shes only had him 8 weeks hes only 6 months and she ISNT using him.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Yes the is a moggy with outdoor access the moggy is also at the vets tonight she says


If the moggy is under the weather too then I would look to some other infection AND coincidental FCoV +ve cat. There are such things as 'hot' outbreaks of FIP where more than one kitten is affected but I've only ever heard of it in closely related cats - usually a litter. More than one cat in a household not well and I'd insist on very rigorous investigations before agreeing to anything drastic.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> If the moggy is under the weather too then I would look to some other infection AND coincidental FCoV +ve cat. There are such things as 'hot' outbreaks of FIP where more than one kitten is affected but I've only ever heard of it in closely related cats - usually a litter. More than one cat in a household not well and I'd insist on very rigorous investigations before agreeing to anything drastic.


She says the mog is fine no ill health.

The stud is from a large multicat household something like 20 cats i am told.

Well theres no point in guessing is there,ill update here when other test results are in.

Thankyou for all your input very helpful indeed.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Well i have given her all this info i hope that it will change her mine to re home and not put to sleep,you see she has only had a vets opinion but now she has all your info too which i would value anyday.


It's entirely possible that your friend's vet is very clued up. I have known and heard of some who are not though unfortunately. I really can't stress enough that without a proper FIP panel being carried out, as Havoc mentioned; those looking highly indicative of FIP *along* with all the clinical signs pointing to FIP.. then pts on a suspected FIP diagnosis should never be an option.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> It's entirely possible that your friend's vet is very clued up. I have known and heard of some who are not though unfortunately. I really can't stress enough that without a proper FIP panel being carried out, as Havoc mentioned; those looking highly indicative of FIP *along* with all the clinical signs pointing to FIP.. then pts on a suspected FIP diagnosis should never be an option.


Ok i will tell her about this place in scotland was it? Do you have a link for me to pass on please?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> Ok i will tell her about this place in scotland was it? Do you have a link for me to pass on please?


I'm sure your friend's vet will be familiar with the Veterinary Diagnostics Service at Glasgow University but the link anyway...

University of Glasgow :: School of Veterinary Medicine :: Veterinary Diagnostic Services :: Submit a sample


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

She'll only have to say she wants all samples sent to Glasgow and any vet will know exactly what she means


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Shes only had him 8 weeks hes only 6 months and she ISNT using him.


But she's planning to use him - except if he's sickly she shouldn't.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Ok i will tell her about this place in scotland was it? Do you have a link for me to pass on please?


Glasgow. Where Dr Adie is, I posted you the link to her website in my first reply and it really is very up-to-date and has a big section on diagnosis.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Ok iv passed this on


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Glasgow. Where Dr Adie is, I posted you the link to her website in my first reply and it really is very up-to-date and has a big section on diagnosis.


Oh right i didnt read the link but did pass it on


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> But she's planning to use him - except if he's sickly she shouldn't.


She didnt buy him knowing he was sick tbh im told he hasnt been that bad just a bit off when she got him home that was put down to being shy then poorly last week so went to vets for these tests and now this.

She isnt planning on using him as i said earlier she told me she was getting him pts...BUT i think she was in shock and not aware of other choices but she will be aware of them now as iv passed everything on.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Glasgow. Where Dr Adie is


Oooh, is she back there?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Glasgow. Where Dr Adie is, I posted you the link to her website in my first reply and it really is very up-to-date and has a big section on diagnosis.


I believe Dr Addie now lives in France and has done for some while... but yes, Glasgow do offer gold standard testing. I must disagree that her web site is up to date on FCoV/FIP - I find much of it really quite *out* of date!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Oooh, is she back there?


Oh... she's back then? Must be quite recent if she is.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Oh... she's back then? Must be quite recent if she is.


I didn't know, that's why I'm asking. There's no reason I'd know but I'd have thought it would be big news if she'd gone back.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> I didn't know, that's why I'm asking. There's no reason I'd know but I'd have thought it would be big news if she'd gone back.


My apologies - I quoted from the wrong post/person


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I believe Dr Addie now lives in France and has done for some while... but yes, Glasgow do offer gold standard testing. I must disagree that her web site is up to date on FCoV/FIP - I find much of it really quite *out* of date!


OK, where is a better site?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> OK, where is a better site?


I wouldn't say there is any one source of information which can be called definitive. Those researchers working on it will update when they have something to say so today's 'best' source will be out of date next week.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> OK, where is a better site?


I don't actually read Dr Addie's site any longer as, for such a long time, it wasn't updated in keeping with new findings though, granted, unfortunately those have been few.

Going back, a few of the issues that concerned me were the figures she quoted in percentage terms for the number of FCoV+ cats who could be expected to go onto develop FIP. The figures have been strongly refuted by other experts working in the field - the most recent who springs to mind was Prof Tim-Gruffydd Jones speaking at a seminar on FIP last year where he made reference to Diane's figures.

I do also wish she would remove the early weaning protocol as a means of preventing FCoV in kittens. Her success in that respect was never able to be replicated by any other research even under laboratory conditions and has been shown to frequently cause more harm than good in terms of socialisation.


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