# Studding my Labrador



## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Hi everyone  ,

This is my first post so be gentle. My wife and I have a 3 year old Labrador called Obi. Here he is below.



















We started talking about studding him as when we were in the park the other day we were approached by a couple with a Lab bitch the same size, colour etc. We didn't go any further with it but it got us thinking. He's a good build(very trim, a proper waist, muscular unlike alot of labs we see around) and has a good temperament and we think he would sire some great puppies. He's KC registered and we would quite happily get any checks that needed doing done as we would want to make sure he would be suitable before we went ahead with anything.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Ben


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

hi Ben, i wouldn't bother tbo let him carry on being what he is a loving pet.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Personally, I wouldn't. Labradors are so popular and there are thousands of stud dogs around. 

Do you show him or work him? It isn't worth studding a pet dog, because once they experience "it", they want it all the time and will go off on walks after bitches. Also, the bitch owner chooses the stud they want, so they should be choosing a dog that compliments their bitch and has done well in the show ring or in the field, and has good health test results. 

I'd neuter him and just keep him as a family pet. He looks beautiful and he sounds like a great dog, don't spoil it by studding him.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi Ben, and welcome to the forum, it's good that you're asking and trying to get the right information to base your decision on, so many just go ahead anyway.

I'm nicking this from a friend of mine (Di Stevens at Wylanbriar Labradors), who has bred Labradors for a number of years, including handling stud dogs, there's no such thing as 'studding' by the way 

It's a bit graphic, but gives you a better idea of the role of a stud dog owner, in my eyes, it entails more responsibility than that of someone who breeds from their bitch. You need to know the ins and outs of breeding to a greater extent, and are expected to be a back up service for inexperienced bitch owners. You need to be prepared to perform quite intimate handling of both bitch and dog, internal examinations, 'cupping' to help the dog mate, etc, anyway, here's the essay.....
_
I have been half meaning to write this for ages but only got round to it today after another memorable half hour occured to add to the list Wink

Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance

Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:

1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery.
What do you do?
What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown Wink

What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.

2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!

3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.

4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....

5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.

6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.

7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.

Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!

9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.

10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.

Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes.
Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated.
So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.

So i hope some of the above might set a bit more thinking in motion about how people think its all natural and taking candy from a baby handling a dog at stud.

....Cos it isn't

Di_

If you're serious, your first step is to contact the person who bred your boy, and talk to them about health testing. If they are good breeders they'll be able to advise you appropriately and help you, as well as inform you if there are any endorsements in place, which mean progeny from your boy can't be registered with the KC.

My own view on health tests is that hip scores and elbow grades are a must, as is the genetic test for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) all one off tests, and could cost you up to about £400 depending on distances travelled. The other test I'd say is a must is the annual BVA current clear eye cert. Depending on the breeding of your boy, you may want to test for CNM (centro nuclear myopathy), some would also advise the test for EIC (exercise induced collapse), although the jury's still out on that particular condition. Stud dogs are capable of producing far more progeny than a bitch, as such it's important that you're only using the very best dog, they must have good health, and a very good temperament.

The next bit is the difficult bit, if you haven't proven your boy in any way, ie showing, working or competition, then you will not attract ethical breeders with quality bitches. You are only likely to attract people who've been turned down elsewhere, which aren't really the sort of people you'd want brining more Labrador pups into the world.

Hope that helps.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Sadly Labs are already ten a penny, better to have him neutered and keep him a a much loved pet and companion, which I am sure was the original purpose you brought him into your life


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2010)

I can only repeat what others have said. Lab's are already very over bred and unless your boy has something to offer (show dog, agility, exceptional health test results, working) then I really wouldnt bother. 

Just keep him as a much loved pet. Which is what he is.

Breeding brings with it risks of not only your boy being hurt during mating but he could well kill the bitch. Not just that but pups ending up in rescues and so on. Its really a big risk that would best be left well alone. 

Having a good temperament is only part of a reason to breed, you have to take many other things into account. Breeding from a un-health tested dog is risky could you really pay out £200 for him to be put out and hip scored? And a further £100-£200 for his DNA health test too? 

If its something you do want to go ahead with please please please health test. 

Good luck with your boy and he is very handsome. I hope you enjoy the forum and find answers you are looking for.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Sadly Labs are already ten a penny, better to have him neutered and keep him a a much loved pet and companion, which I am sure was the original purpose you brought him into your life


Why? There's no need to neuter a dog, as long as they're well trained and you don't leave them unsupervised to roam.


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hi Ben, and welcome to the forum, it's good that you're asking and trying to get the right information to base your decision on, so many just go ahead anyway.
> 
> I'm nicking this from a friend of mine (Di Stevens at Wylanbriar Labradors), who has bred Labradors for a number of years, including handling stud dogs, there's no such thing as 'studding' by the way
> 
> ...


Well put Di and Sleeping Lion :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hi Ben, and welcome to the forum, it's good that you're asking and trying to get the right information to base your decision on, so many just go ahead anyway.
> 
> I'm nicking this from a friend of mine (Di Stevens at Wylanbriar Labradors), who has bred Labradors for a number of years, including handling stud dogs, there's no such thing as 'studding' by the way
> 
> ...


Brilliant post and should make folks think seriously :thumbup:


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your comments I really appreciate, Sleeping Lion especially .

I've shown your replies to my wife and we've decided against it, we got him as a pet and we're gonna keep it that way. Who knew there was so much to it!

I have one more question if that's ok, should we now neuter him now he's not going to stud? If we didn't surely he'd get frustrated?(this is me putting myself in his shoes )

P.S Not that it makes a difference now but he's not been shown and doesn't work although he has at least one champion in his family tree from what I can see.

Thanks again,
Ben


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Thats a very wise choice - Ben, the responsible thing to do 
There is no reason why you should have him castrated, just keep him away from in season girls. Yes an entire dog will get frustrated if around a female in season, but if not put into that situation he shouldnt be bothered. Castration is a personal choice, and really is up to you.
If he is around entires bitches and you question your ability to keep them apart then it would be a good idea to have him castrated.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments I really appreciate, Sleeping Lion especially .
> 
> I've shown your replies to my wife and we've decided against it, we got him as a pet and we're gonna keep it that way. Who knew there was so much to it!
> 
> ...


Its up to you if you want to neuter him or not.

I do neuter any boy dogs I dont want to use, My Kai is being nuetered when he hits the right age so that no accidents happen so if he goes offlead he wont catch a in season bitch. But it really is up to you.

Many dogs have champions in their pedigree but most dont make the grade for showing as even with two champion parents there is a very slim chance to get a show dog in a litter.

Glad you have decided against it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments I really appreciate, Sleeping Lion especially .
> 
> I've shown your replies to my wife and we've decided against it, we got him as a pet and we're gonna keep it that way. Who knew there was so much to it!
> 
> ...


I will pass on your thanks to Di when I next speak to her, she is a lovely lady.

As to neutering, a dog doesn't know what it hasn't had, so if you have a well trained dog and have no problems keeping him entire, they there's no reason to have him neutered. Have a read of this link, it will give you the pros and cons....

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

If he isnt going to be used as stud then i would also think of the health risks from being intact as well, i really cant see a reason for keeping a dog intact.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> If he isnt going to be used as stud then i would also think of the health risks from being intact as well, i really cant see a reason for keeping a dog intact.


There are actually no real benefits from neutering, as far as health is concerned. Depending on age, there is more risk from some cancers, if you choose to neuter. The obvious health benefit is no testicular cancer, but that's a very small risk, less than 1%, so shouldn't be a deciding factor in my books.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There are actually no real benefits from neutering, as far as health is concerned. Depending on age, there is more risk from some cancers, if you choose to neuter. The obvious health benefit is no testicular cancer, but that's a very small risk, less than 1%, so shouldn't be a deciding factor in my books.


yes i agree.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Well done you for doing some thinking about this 

We've got our male lab neutered but its more because we have a neutered dog already and there are quite a lot of dogs round here, a few who are aggressive and I've heard they can be worse with un neutered males. In actual fact I've not read anything up about it as such, its more hearsay! If you've had no problems with him so far I wouldn't worry too much about getting him done. Ours was a bit territorial in terms of peeing inside and that has improved since neutering but tbh that could be through correction anyway. Like others have said if he hasn't mated before he wont know what he's missing 

He looks a very sweet dog


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

He sure is a lovely boy, he's my little man 

Thanks again Sleeping Lion, I've had a read and I'm leaning towards leaving him intact(getting the lingo already ).

Alot of the time he is on a lead and when he is off we always keep a very close eye on any dogs that are around just in case we don't like the look of them, I know it's hard to tell alot of the time though. When he's off his lead it means he has a ball which means he has no interest in other dogs anyway! He just wants that ball!

Thanks again everyone


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BenCooper said:


> He sure is a lovely boy, he's my little man
> 
> Thanks again Sleeping Lion, I've had a read and I'm leaning towards leaving him intact(getting the lingo already ).
> 
> ...


Of course he's lovely, he certainly looks adored and adorable  Glad to have posted some useful links and info from others, and as I said, will pass on the thanks to Di at Wylanbriar, I really can't take any credit for her knowledge and experience. Sincerely hoping you stay around and post more pics of your boy, it's a very welcoming forum


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Please do pass on my thanks to Di. I appreciate all the replies, it has enabled me to have a balanced view on it and I feel we have made the right decision.

Here's one more pic of us having a cuddle, night guys


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

ah he's lovely


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Just wanted to say this was a really good polite, informative thread with a very sensible decision made by the opening poster, well done everyone that contributed, and well done Opening poster, for asking the questions, for being open minded, and for thinking of your loved dog first and foremost. BTW he is lovely, and wanted to say if I got a £ for every time some random stranger asked me to mate my guys to their girls I would have quite a few bob now, thankfully I took their invites with a pinch of salt, and enjoy being skint, and having a clear concience lol.

mo


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

moboyd said:


> Just wanted to say this was a really good polite, informative thread with a very sensible decision made by the opening poster, well done everyone that contributed, and well done Opening poster, for asking the questions, for being open minded, and for thinking of your loved dog first and foremost. BTW he is lovely, and wanted to say if I got a £ for every time some random stranger asked me to mate my guys to their girls I would have quite a few bob now, thankfully I took their invites with a pinch of salt, and enjoy being skint, and having a clear concience lol.
> 
> mo


:thumbup: :thumbup: completely agree with this post! I get it with my dogs but just ignore the 'invites' !

Gorgeous dog Ben :001_wub:


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Ditsy, Mo and Acacia! 

I've been on alot of other forums(unrelated to pets) and there is alot of rubbish spoken(typed?) so it's very nice to have a good, mature discussion about a topic with people that know what they're taking about and with no one lowering the tone.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Hi there i know nothing about breeding but i was asked on beach by woman with bichon if i would let my dog breed with hers as she was in season he was only 7 months at time  me and oh were just gobsmacked walked away mad woman followed us along beach saying come on let him off leash with her dog :lol: your boy is gorgeous :thumbup:


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

new westie owner said:


> Hi there i know nothing about breeding but i was asked on beach by woman with bichon if i would let my dog breed with hers as she was in season he was only 7 months at time  me and oh were just gobsmacked walked away mad woman followed us along beach saying come on let him off leash with her dog :lol: your boy is gorgeous :thumbup:


She wanted it to happen there and then?! That's crazy! Some people don't have the brains they were born with.

Your Westie look lovely , when we thought about getting another dog we were thinking about getting one, going for the little and large. I think a baby is on the cards before another dog though eek: scary stuff).


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I too was approached by a "reputable" breeder to use Flynn as a stud. I never wanted my boy to experience "it" and just wanted him to be my baby for ever, which he is. He was neutered at 18 months and since doesn't even pee when out on walks, so much better than the constant sniffing and peeing he did before. It also protects against prostate cancer/prostatitis in the future, so i'd always go for neutering myself. Also I don't find any smegma (discharge) on his bed any more - another bonus!

Your boy is adorable and i'm so glad you didn't accept the offer of the other owner, your boy could have had a bad experience in inexperienced hands.


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm glad we didn't pursue it too! Thinking back she was quite forward about it, she just went straight in to asking if he was registered and what papers we had for him. She didn't ask if he had any conditions or illnesses which says to me (now at least) that she didn't really know what she was talking about!

I wouldn't want him to go through all that, before I came here I thought it was just a case of getting them together and leaving them to it! 

I've now had my eyes opened :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I too was approached by a "reputable" breeder to use Flynn as a stud. I never wanted my boy to experience "it" and just wanted him to be my baby for ever, which he is. He was neutered at 18 months and since doesn't even pee when out on walks, so much better than the constant sniffing and peeing he did before. It also protects against prostate cancer/prostatitis in the future, so i'd always go for neutering myself. Also I don't find any smegma (discharge) on his bed any more - another bonus!
> 
> Your boy is adorable and i'm so glad you didn't accept the offer of the other owner, your boy could have had a bad experience in inexperienced hands.


You've got that the wrong way round, it increases the risk of prostate cancer, although it's still a small risk in any case; this is from the article I posted a link to earlier in the thread ......

_On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
 eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
 reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
 reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
 may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)
On the negative side, neutering male dogs
 if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
 increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
 triples the risk of hypothyroidism
 increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
 triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
 *quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer*
 doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
 increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
 increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations_


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments I really appreciate, Sleeping Lion especially .
> 
> I've shown your replies to my wife and we've decided against it, we got him as a pet and we're gonna keep it that way. Who knew there was so much to it!
> 
> ...


If his temperament is good and he isn't chasing every bitch under the sun, then why get him neutered? There are actually more potential health problems from neutering a male than leaving him intact - these risks are higher the younger the dog is done, but nevertheless remain.

I'm glad you've decided to take on board the advice given - stud work is not for the fainthearted - we've got a lovely chocolate boy here who is shown regularly, has quite an unusual and very nice pedigree for a chocolate, very low hips, zero elbows, a clear eye cert, and is DNA clear for g-PRA and CNM - and all but two of my enquires I've turned away. The trouble is, unless you are at the top or 'know' someone who will put stud work your way - most enquiries are from unhealth-tested pet bitch owners who want a stud and want it NOW 

well done you


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Oops, sorry I meant testicular cancer and prostatitis  Although a vet told me to have my old Staff neutered when he had prostatitis to help prevent the condition recurring, he also said it may help guard against prostate cancer but that was around seven years ago. Goes to show some vets don't know exactly what they're talking - or maybe he just wanted me to see sense and have the old boy "done" which I did.

The increased risk of hyporthyroidism is a bit of a worry, especially as Mals are prone to this disorder. I do know of a few Mals on the Mal forum who are entire with hypothyroidism as well as some bitches - will just have to keep an eye out, which I do anyway as it is easy to spot.

I still prefer a neutered male though, much more like my girls when out walking with no distractions and a more enjoyable walk altogether!


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Swarthy 

I can see where you're coming from Malmum, I'd just rather not put him through if I don't need to. He's well behaved (most of the time!) and he always wears a harness when we're out so I can easily grab him just in case. He gets very single minded on his ball as I've mentioned before so we never have any problems 

What annoys me is people who let their dog loose without scoping out the immediate area first, suddenly there's a loose dog running around Obi and that's the only time he gets fidgety.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2010)

Ahh your boy's gorgeous!  well done on your decision :thumbup:


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

RoseForTheDead said:


> Ahh your boy's gorgeous!  well done on your decision :thumbup:


Thanks Rose 

I'm in the office at the moment, as you can see I'm hard at work! Office's should be closed this time of year...


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

He's very nice!

Glad you've decided not to use him at stud. Maybe when you get your next dog you could think about getting one to show if breeding is something you are considering in the future. Would give you plenty time to find a good breeder etc.

Ever since Blu has been around a bitch in season at a show (he's never been mated but chances his luck even with his half brother ) we catch him trying to lift his leg in the house. He's not as bad now because he gets told off for it but I would dread to think what he would be like if he gets used. Would take a very special bitch for me to use him so he probaly won't get used.

My friend who works in a SSPCA rescue centre doesn't agree with neutering in alot of cases. There was a rescue poodle she wanted me to take on but I said they wouldn't let me because Blu isnt' snipped. She said don't worry about it you can argue that neutering can cause health problems so it isn't worth the risk. 

Aslong as the owner is sensible then I don't see the problem.


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## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

He's lovely!!
Its a minefield the whole neutering thing when i took Jack to the vets for his first injection the vet was on at me about him having the snip and reeling of the benefits  god he was only 8 wks 
Thankfully i came on here before agreeing to have him done way too early and possibly needlessly.


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Cheeko 

To be honest I think we'll probably give the whole thing a miss after reading up on it and getting opinions from you guys, it seems quite a messy business and we would probably just end up with a puppy each time! One gutty Labrador is expensive enough for us although you couldn't tell by looking at him!

How cute is Jack!


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks Cheeko
> 
> To be honest I think we'll probably give the whole thing a miss after reading up on it and getting opinions from you guys, it seems quite a messy business and we would probably just end up with a puppy each time! One gutty Labrador is expensive enough for us although you couldn't tell by looking at him!
> 
> How cute is Jack!


People think it's just as simple as sticking 2 dogs together and you get money at the end of it. Don't realise everything else that can happen.

It's nice for someone to join and not take offence at being advised against breeding by the way


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

I thought it might be the case that it would be a resounding no when I was signing up but I wanted to get opinions from people that know what they're talking about. I've always been around dogs but never had any experience of breeding so was clueless on the whole deal, I'm glad I made the effort to ask the question 

Here's one more pic, he does like having his picture taken 










On a side note, what colour would you say Obi is? The lady that approached us said he is a fox red? I know yellow encompasses a wide range of shades.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> On a side note, what colour would you say Obi is? The lady that approached us said he is a fox red? I know yellow encompasses a wide range of shades.


Fox red is simply a shade of yellow - I had to change the lighting on your photo to get a real shade - he's a dark yellow, but wouldn't say fox red - true fox reds are very few and far between - I don't like posting pictures of other people's dogs - but here is a link to what I would call a fox-red (the dog in the title banner)

Home - Ettinsmoor Labradors

And this stunner

http://www.druimmuirspaniels.co.uk/14.html


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Fox red is simply a shade of yellow - I had to change the lighting on your photo to get a real shade - he's a dark yellow, but wouldn't say fox red - true fox reds are very few and far between - I don't like posting pictures of other people's dogs - but here is a link to what I would call a fox-red (the dog in the title banner)
> 
> Home - Ettinsmoor Labradors
> 
> ...


Thanks Swarthy, I don't think I've ever seen a Lab that red! Dark yellow is it


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

thanks for that SWARTHY wondered what a red fox colour is. i saw the local puppy farming advertises them.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> As to neutering, a dog doesn't know what it hasn't had]


How do you know this for a fact?  :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks Swarthy, I don't think I've ever seen a Lab that red! Dark yellow is it


These are working red Labs, and very good they are too 
Smale Gundogs


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> I can see where you're coming from Malmum, I'd just rather not put him through if I don't need to. He's well behaved (most of the time!) and he always wears a harness when we're out so I can easily grab him just in case. He gets very single minded on his ball as I've mentioned before so we never have any problems


These are the first dogs i've ever had "done" in fifty years of owning dogs, with the exeption of my old Staff and tbh it was a panic reaction as i'd had an unplanned litter and didn't want it to happen ever again. No matter how careful you are when someone else is looking after them (just once I add) accidents can happen, so they all got the snip shapish, lol.

If he's a good boy and you don't have multiple dogs then no worries but Mals can be stroppy and all the hormones floating around can add to it. Peace and (safe) love here now - well mostly!


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Not all dogs go crazy for bitches after they have been used. Chester actually calmed down alot! He doesn't go after all the girls now as he knows when they are 'ready' . Other people have noticed it at shows as well, he will now happily stay on his bench without screaming at me  . I think he is rare though! He was 6 when first used, maybe because he was older and his hormones were settled, that's why he calmed down?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> How do you know this for a fact?  :lol:


Well unless Labs have developed opposable thumbs and/or the ability to order blow up doggy dollies online, I'd say the chances are pretty slim.



rona said:


> These are working red Labs, and very good they are too
> Smale Gundogs


Yes, there are two brothers to this Lab that I know of, neither are fox red, just dark yellow, but both with bl**dy brilliant ability.

For a lovely looking yellow Lab, one of my fave's, check out the website of Natasha Bunjoch, Contender Gundogs, Baci is absolutely lovely!!


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Well unless Labs have developed opposable thumbs and/or the ability to order blow up doggy dollies online, I'd say the chances are pretty slim.


I just had a right old chuckle to myself reading this :lol:

Another different note, how does Obes(one of many names for him) conform to the breed standard? I'm not fussed if he does or not, he is my little man afterall, but it would interesting to know. Just about every Lab I've seen is a fair bit chunkier than him.

I haven't got a recent pic of him stood up side on I'm afraid.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BenCooper said:


> I just had a right old chuckle to myself reading this :lol:
> 
> Another different note, how does Obes(one of many names for him) conform to the breed standard? I'm not fussed if he does or not, he is my little man afterall, but it would interesting to know. Just about every Lab I've seen is a fair bit chunkier than him.
> 
> I haven't got a recent pic of him stood up side on I'm afraid.


Swarthy's a better person to ask on this one, as she's more involved with showing and knows the breed standard.

From my knowledge, and point of view, he looks like a nice working type, although (and don't take this personally, please) stud dogs need to be more 'exceptional' I feel, particularly if they are well used. Take a peek at Natasha Bunjoch's yellow stud dog Baci, at Contender gundogs, he's a superb example, proven and a beautiful dog. I'm lucky to have met him and he's super!! If I had the right bitch I'd use him for sure, but my plans lie elsewhere with my chocolate numpty girl, if I go ahead.

And, btw, just so you know I'm genuine, although I adore my numpty girl, Tau, she has a couple of conformational issues that I'd like to see less of in pups, if I do breed. She's lovely, but I do accept she's less than perfect, except to me


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks SL(hope that's ok), we knew he was a working type Lab and that's why he has a leaner look. No offence taken btw 

I'm interested to know what 'more exceptional' means?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Did you have chance to look at Baci? 

If you have a read through of the breed standard for Labs, this will give you an idea, although any breed standard is a blue print, or guideline, so open to interpretation, if you like. 

So, from your posts, your boy looks quite leggy and lean, if he had a little more maturity perhaps, and a bit more spring in the ribs (barrelly type shaped chest) then it would benefit him. He's not got a bad head, for a working type, but next to a show type, you'd struggle to term him as 'broad in the skull'. 

I can't post pics from this desktop, but will show you some of my two when I get a chance, including Tau who I plan to breed from. She has lots of plus points, but I know her faults, and would aim to use a dog to 'resolve' those, if you see what I mean?


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## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

You have a beautiful dog!

Slightly OT but mentioning weight, I saw the fattest lab at the vets the other day. Ive never seen a dog so big. It honestly couldnt get up once it had layed down without help, im not even sure how it stood for anymore than 5 minutes.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks SL(hope that's ok), we knew he was a working type Lab and that's why he has a leaner look. No offence taken btw
> 
> I'm interested to know what 'more exceptional' means?


Usually stud dogs are proven in some way - whether that be in the field, or showring (or possibly agility)

I have no objection to people breeding solely pets if they do it properly (although I do struggle to understand why they do it - but am not naive enough to believe our breed doesn't need these people because it does).

Personally however, even if breeding for the pet market, I believe that they should be trying to maintain / improve temperament and health - whilst also improving the quality of the progeny.

What you have to remember is that even pet bitches have pretty much the pick of the stud dogs and some of the more experienced /established breeders and stud owners - if they don't believe their dog is right for the bitch may well direct the owners to someone with a better matched dog.

So when you say 'exceptional' - what do they have to offer? temperament and health is not really enough - is it working ability, is it agility ability or showring potential? these should never be above temperament and health - but they should be pretty much on a par.

On that basis - and I know you've already made your decison - but what do you think your boy would offer?

Someone I know has two lovely boys she stands at stud - they both work, and they both do agility - but in addition to that - one of the boys is the first recorded lab in the UK (in over 67,000 dogs) to come from two 0/0 scoring parents - but it goes further than that - he's the FOURTH generation of at least one parent scoring 0/0 hips - at present - that remains an unmatched UK record - and requires more than a bit of research by people in the know to find out why - how dogs, raised in different homes and different ways from the same breeding lines can have such a record.

So her dogs not only compete and work - one of them also has a health record which MIGHT have a positive influence on other lines in terms of improving and / or maintaining good hips.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Usually stud dogs are proven in some way - whether that be in the field, or showring (or possibly agility)
> 
> I have no objection to people breeding solely pets if they do it properly (although I do struggle to understand why they do it - but am not naive enough to believe our breed doesn't need these people because it does).
> 
> ...


Oooh, Katy's lovely boy, it's Oak isn't it from memory (I know she's got Oak, Fife and Ash, and have seen them in the flesh)?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Oooh, Katy's lovely boy, it's Oak isn't it from memory (I know she's got Oak, Fife and Ash, and have seen them in the flesh)?


Yes - Oak is the 4th generation - Fife is third generation. I've not met them in the flesh - but feel like I know them after doing the website - Oak is a fine looking boy with a lovely head - and again, contrary to what people believe about working bred boys - looks quite substantial.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Right, kicked the OH off the lappy, here's Tau when she was about 2.5 years old....










and a head study...










Right, although I love my girl to bits, I can see a few weak points on there (I'm sure some more experienced will see more), longer body, not quite as well sprung as some show dogs, look at Swarthy's avatar for ref, also her front ankles, or pasterns, are a little weak in the angle. Her good points are, she's all round not that bad, conformation wise, she's got a nice barrel shaped chest, if not quite as barrelly as some show types, she's got a nice strong head, although I'm not keen on the jowelly neck, and she's got a nice length of leg. That's without going into what she can do, and her health tests, and (of paramount importance) her temperament.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Yes - Oak is the 4th generation - Fife is third generation. I've not met them in the flesh - but feel like I know them after doing the website - Oak is a fine looking boy with a lovely head - and again, contrary to what people believe about working bred boys - looks quite substantial.


He's honestly super, and this is where I don't get that some people involved with showing, can't see the good in nice working examples, they are definitely there!!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> He's honestly super, and this is where I don't get that some people involved with showing, can't see the good in nice working examples, they are definitely there!!!


I don't think that's the case at all TBH - it's just more that you don't tend to see that on the forums.

Unfortunately - people have two stereotypes with Labs - when in truth - often - the dogs are not always that far apart -yes - a working dog will be possibly in good hard condition if it is out working a lot - but some of these dogs can actually be heavier than their showring counterparts - not excepting the 'fatty' of the moment, my heaviest bitch is easily my leanest - but my god she is lean and solid and frighteningly strong - I've had more than a couple of judges comment on how well muscled she is - and in good hard condition - and few people believe me when I say she is the heaviest bitch here


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I don't think that's the case at all TBH - it's just more that you don't tend to see that on the forums.
> 
> Unfortunately - people have two stereotypes with Labs - when in truth - often - the dogs are not always that far apart -yes - a working dog will be possibly in good hard condition if it is out working a lot - but some of these dogs can actually be heavier than their showring counterparts - not excepting the 'fatty' of the moment, my heaviest bitch is easily my leanest - but my god she is lean and solid and frighteningly strong - I've had more than a couple of judges comment on how well muscled she is - and in good hard condition - and few people believe me when I say she is the heaviest bitch here


Sorry hun, not quite getting ya, I'm not saying that all show dogs are overweight lardy buts, and working dogs aren't, I hope you know I think a bit differently to that.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry hun, not quite getting ya, I'm not saying that all show dogs are overweight lardy buts, and working dogs aren't, I hope you know I think a bit differently to that.


No - I know you don't think like that  unfortunately, there are quite a few that do


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Did you have chance to look at Baci?
> 
> If you have a read through of the breed standard for Labs, this will give you an idea, although any breed standard is a blue print, or guideline, so open to interpretation, if you like.
> 
> ...


I did take at look at Baci, what an awesome looking dog! I was surprised at the muscularity he/she(?) has. I see what you mean about Obi, I've always thought of him as a bit lanky and he does have quite a narrow and body head when comparing to your pics. Alot a few people have questioned if he is a Lab when they first meet him, I'm putting this down to his lankyness/leanness. It's funny when you say he is and they say 'Oh yes I knew he was...'. He also has a jowly neck but I quite like it 

He's now 3 years and 4 months so I'm assuming he's not going to fill out anymore?

RetroLemon, it upsets me when I see a fat dog as I know something can usually be done about it(more walking!). A few weeks back when our park was covered in snow Obi met a a really overweight black Lab. He was a lovely dog but Obes just rang rings around him. I just don't get why people let their dog get like that in the first place.

Swarthy, your point is one of the reasons I came here to ask the question. After chatting with you guys it's clear, however special he is to my wife and I, that Obes wouldn't bring anything to the party so to speak.


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

BenCooper - congratulations to you for asking for advice and then actually taking it. It really is so refreshing to find someone so responsible so well done you :thumbup:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Swarthy, your point is one of the reasons I came here to ask the question. After chatting with you guys it's clear, however special he is to my wife and I, that Obes wouldn't bring anything to the party so to speak.


Absolutely - and I hope it didn't come across as me getting at you, it wasn't meant that way - it was just you asked for an example of what 'special' means in terms of the gene pool, and I was trying to demonstrate the obvious and possibly the slightly less obvious.

While I am one of these people who believes that health results are very important - I also believe they are not the b'all and end all - and that it is really important to look at the whole dog.

This is one of the reasons I cited the example of the four generations of zero hips - because even if that dog didn't work / do agility - he looks like a Labrador - and to me - I suspect he could give something very valuable back to the gene pool - particularly in lines where hip score history is sketchy (i.e. no known problems but patchwork histories in the pedigree) or dogs with lines behind them of marginally higher scores than the breed average.

I have always said I would sooner breed from a dog with a score of 20 who meets the breed criteria and has a good temperament than a dog with a score of zero whose quality and / or temperament is questionable.



Ridgielover said:


> BenCooper - congratulations to you for asking for advice and then actually taking it. It really is so refreshing to find someone so responsible so well done you :thumbup:


Isn't it  - respect :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks again guys appreciate it 

Swarthy, it didn't come across that way at all. I'm new to all of this and need to be told! Another thing that irks me is people asking a question and then not taking the advice on board, it completely defeats the object.

My thanks goes to you guys for being so helpful :thumbup:

I'm gonna dig out his family tree when I get in and have a good look at it along with any other docs we have for him. When we got him it was all well and good having this stuff but I guess we were still quite naive about it all, it was just stuff that came with him.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2010)

BenCooper you are like a breath of fresh air to this forum, so many people only come here in the hope of hearing what they want to hear and some even become aggressive when told the opposite.
As said before, respect to you, and I hope you continue to contribute to the forum


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Rona 

I'll be sticking around, probably more lurking around reading up on things then contributing as I'm a newbie. I'll try to get some nice shots of Obes so I can post them here, alot of the ones we have are a year or so old now.

Is there a list somewhere of all the terms you guys use on here? When I start looking into something new I do tend to immerse myself in it for a period before calming down 

P.S Call me Ben (or any variation of Cooper you can think of!)


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

rona said:


> BenCooper you are like a breath of fresh air to this forum, so many people only come here in the hope of hearing what they want to hear and some even become aggressive when told the opposite.
> As said before, respect to you, and I hope you continue to contribute to the forum


I'll second that! :thumbup:


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Stop stop you're making me blush!

On a serious note thanks for making me feel so welcome, you didn't have to and I appreciate it


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Here's a pic of my Fox Red Lab she's still a puppy so not as good as they could be, she was more interested in getting the rubber chicken from the other dog..
She's from working lines Helms Point in the US although she is Canadian bred


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> Here's a pic of my Fox Red Lab she's still a puppy so not as good as they could be, she was more interested in getting the rubber chicken from the other dog..
> She's from working lines Helms Point in the US although she is Canadian bred


She's lovely :thumbup:


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Here's a pic of him side on(finally!).










Thoughts?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Here's a pic of him side on(finally!).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is quite dark from that angle isn't he  He's lovely and a gorgeous colouring


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> He is quite dark from that angle isn't he  He's lovely and a gorgeous colouring


Now then Swarthy, correct me if I'm wrong, but he seems to have nice top and bottom lines, his leg length is slightly longer than the depth of his chest, but it's shades of measurements, and he's actually got a nice turn of the stifle, that second thigh them Labrador folk go on about, chuckle. His major weakness as I'd see it is his front end and shoulders, but he is a lovely looking boy, and I can well see why someone uninformed about breeding, would approach you out of the blue without knowing all involved.

This is my other bitch, Indie, I hope you can see what I mean about the front end and shoulders Ben, she's not the best example, but remembering this is a bitch, not a dog, hope you can see the difference, and bearing in mind I may be talking out of my posterior as I know nowt about the show stuff, but just thought it would be interesting to post my thoughts as a novice


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Now then Swarthy, correct me if I'm wrong, but he seems to have nice top and bottom lines, his leg length is slightly longer than the depth of his chest, but it's shades of measurements, and he's actually got a nice turn of the stifle, that second thigh them Labrador folk go on about, chuckle. His major weakness as I'd see it is his front end and shoulders, but he is a lovely looking boy, and I can well see why someone uninformed about breeding, would approach you out of the blue without knowing all involved.


I didn't really want to post anything re: breed standard on an open forum - if the OP wants me to, happy to do so. (but please bear in mind it is only MY interpretation)


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I didn't really want to post anything re: breed standard on an open forum - if the OP wants me to, happy to do so. (but please bear in mind it is only MY interpretation)


It's only my interpretation too, I hope the OP knows that, they seem to be pretty open minded so far


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Go for it guys I'm genuinely interested 

I can see what you mean about his front end SL, he could do with being a bit 'stronger looking' up top, especially round the shoulders I'm assuming?

Swarthy, he's got a few shades on him, he tummy is nearly white but he gets darker the further you go up.

He does get an awful lot of comments about how handsome he looks which is nice, although when he was younger and skinnier he kept getting mistaken for a bitch 

Oh and happy new year everyone! x


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BenCooper said:


> Go for it guys I'm genuinely interested
> 
> I can see what you mean about his front end SL, he could do with being a bit 'stronger looking' up top, especially round the shoulders I'm assuming?
> 
> ...


And a happy New Year to you! :thumbup:

Back to the comparison between the pics, if you look at your boy, he's almost straight up the leg and neck, with no front end on him; if you look at Indie, she's got a chest, if you see what I mean, her shoulders are slightly more forward, if that makes sense. It isn't the best pic as she's a bit askew, but I'll try and post one later, or Swarthy may have one of one of her girls that will show it better.

I am chuckling at Obi's expression in that photo, he's obviously being made to wait for his pic being taken, and dying to move :lol:


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2011)

Erm! here's my interputation! But sure the lab folks will tell you I aint got a clue!

Looks from the photo to be very dark, and rather shallow in the brisket area!

Lovely dog by the way! and welcome to the forum!
DT


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks DT, brisket area? I'm gonna have to read up on this aren't I!

SL, I see what you mean about his front end he could do with more there. He was only stood there like that because he was being nosey and wanted to know what Mich was doing, but instead of going to her he just peers round the corner


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks DT, brisket area? I'm gonna have to read up on this aren't I!
> 
> SL, I see what you mean about his front end he could do with more there. He was only stood there like that because he was being nosey and wanted to know what Mich was doing, but instead of going to her he just peers round the corner


Hehe, still on the wrong 'puter, if I get chance later I'll hunt out some pics and post them for you to show that chest line.

I'm not sure what DT's on about with the brisket area, she probably ain't either, but ya gotta love her (actually, not sure we do :lol: ).


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Hehe, still on the wrong 'puter, if I get chance later I'll hunt out some pics and post them for you to show that chest line.
> 
> I'm not sure what DT's on about with the brisket area, she probably ain't either, but ya gotta love her (actually, not sure we do :lol: ).


the chest!


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2011)

Here ya go SL! the brisket area explained! Sorta threw me too when several 'old timers; mentioned it to me! but just sort of sticks in my mind now as to where it is!! 
Dog Anatomy Illustrated - Dog Anatomy


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Here ya go SL! the brisket area explained! Sorta threw me too when several 'old timers; mentioned it to me! but just sort of sticks in my mind now as to where it is!!
> Dog Anatomy Illustrated - Dog Anatomy


You do make me chuckle DT, I'm thinking of slow pot roast Labrador now :lol:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Go for it guys I'm genuinely interested
> 
> I can see what you mean about his front end SL, he could do with being a bit 'stronger looking' up top, especially round the shoulders I'm assuming?
> 
> ...


OK - I am back now - had to get up early for a show  and then fell asleep after I got back and sorted the mutts 

===========================

Please note - this is my opinion only - and you can only tell so much from a photo.

He is clearly working physique (and therefore probably working bred) - and to me, he looks like what he is - i.e. a Labrador.

He's a nice colouring and seems to have excellent pigmentation.

He is too long in the upper forearm and his front angulation is poor. He isn't quite balanced because of this - the depth of chest should (in simple terms) be equal to the length of forearm.

His muzzle is too long, and doesn't appear to have a defined 'stop' (but this may be the photo)

I would like to see a little more reach of neck - his topline looks OK - but would need to see him more side on to give an honest opinion - can't really assess his tailset - again needs to be more side on.

His weight looks perfect - and he seems in good hard condition - nice turn of stifle - would like to see a bit more substance on the rear end. Tail from what I can see looks like an otter tail - and length seems spot on.

---------------------------

Having said all that - he's your boy and you adore him - he has a lovely colouring and looks fit and healthy - so don't dwell on anything I've said - it's immaterial in the great scheme of things - and why I don't like doing things like this.

Here's two dogs (the black isn't mine but I do have the owners permission to post) which hopefully show the difference in front angulation


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Is that Bomber, and your Moz?

Lovely pics 

I am now on the laptop where I have access to more of my halfie pics, so here we go, any I can find to show that front end angulation, mine are nowhere near what the show ring necessarily want, but I hope they give an idea....










ok, so I only found one pic, but didn't have much time to search, it's Indie again, but a bit of a better angle....


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Is that Bomber, and your Moz?
> 
> Lovely pics
> 
> ...


Yes - it's the delectable Bomber and Moz 

Her front angulation is not too bad at all - it's about the same as Clover's - her negative for me would be the tuck-up! - she's been neutered hasn't she? so unlikely to change now.

It would be interesting to see how she looks more stretched out at the back - you will be amazed at the difference it makes to the dogs outline.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2011)

swarthy said:


> Yes - it's the delectable Bomber and Moz
> 
> Her front angulation is not too bad at all - it's about the same as Clover's - her negative for me would be the tuck-up! - she's been neutered hasn't she? so unlikely to change now.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how she looks more stretched out at the back - you will be amazed at the difference it makes to the dogs outline.


Cracking dog!!!! can see why you are so proud!:thumbup:


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## Afinmore (May 22, 2008)

swarthy said:


> OK - I am back now - had to get up early for a show  and then fell asleep after I got back and sorted the mutts
> 
> ===========================
> 
> ...


Sorry, Sue; I'd have to disagree slightly with you re the upper arm. It's definitely not 'too long' (is there such a thing in labs? - they're usually too short!) more too short and as the shoulder isn't laid back enough it helps make the the neck look shorter than perhaps it is. The lack of angulation and lack of length to the upper arm creates that straightness to the front that makes him look as if he has no forechest (where the sternum is), when in fact he has - it's just that the elbows are too far forward and therefore hiding the forechest

I'd also say he has plenty of stop and the muzzle is correct in relation to the head - it should be equal from stop to nose and stop to occiput 

Not a bad looking working dog though! He has much more stop than some workers, and other than the front and slightly short neck he's well enough made.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Yes - it's the delectable Bomber and Moz
> 
> Her front angulation is not too bad at all - it's about the same as Clover's - her negative for me would be the tuck-up! - she's been neutered hasn't she? so unlikely to change now.
> 
> It would be interesting to see how she looks more stretched out at the back - you will be amazed at the difference it makes to the dogs outline.


She has indeed, been neutered that is. She's more straight on the bottom line now though than ever before, perhaps it just comes with maturity for some, and she is a lovely, lovely character. I've never taught either of mine to stand, as you know, although I'm sure it'd make for an interesting experiment. I know you followed Tau's shape for a while with interest with her stront show sire lines, and she does indeed have a much better, overall conformation I feel. I just struggle to get a) a pic of her standing, and b) a pick of her standing where she isnt looking goofy!!!

Will try harder!!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Afinmore said:


> Sorry, Sue; I'd have to disagree slightly with you re the upper arm. It's definitely not 'too long' (is there such a thing in labs? - they're usually too short!) more too short and as the shoulder isn't laid back enough it helps make the the neck look shorter than perhaps it is.


Fiona - yes there is - if you look at the arm and the way it continues up - I've got a bitch here the same which is why I am able to recognise it - pointed out to me by people with a lot more experience than me in the breed - I would never have picked it up before they did point it out - now I see it at every turn 

I did say he was a nice looking boy for a working breed - and felt I couldn't make any concrete comments on the head from the photo ad where it is set.


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## Afinmore (May 22, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Fiona - yes there is - if you look at the arm and the way it continues up - I've got a bitch here the same which is why I am able to recognise it - pointed out to me by people with a lot more experience than me in the breed - I would never have picked it up before they did point it out - now I see it at every turn
> 
> I did say he was a nice looking boy for a working breed - and felt I couldn't make any concrete comments on the head from the photo ad where it is set.


There is a joint there - just the angulation and coat shading makes it look likes there's not. We only have two things in labs these days - correct and too short, and too short is almost the norm 

The length of the upper arm should be equal to the length of the shoulder blade, creating a triangle at the front, with a 'plumbline' from the top of the shoulder falling just at the back of the elbow and front legs. (Geometry fails me at this point, as to whether its an equilateral or an isosceles lol)


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Afinmore said:


> There is a joint there - just the angulation and coat shading makes it look likes there's not. We only have two things in labs these days - correct and too short, and too short is almost the norm
> 
> The length of the upper arm should be equal to the length of the shoulder blade, creating a triangle at the front, with a 'plumbline' from the top of the shoulder falling just at the back of the elbow and front legs. (Geometry fails me at this point, as to whether its an equilateral or an isosceles lol)


Not disagreeing with what you are saying - and it's difficult to find the words to describe it - but it's not coat shading - it's exactly the same as my girls - which as I said - I would never have picked up if it hadn't been highlighted to me .


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## Afinmore (May 22, 2008)

Lol - it's difficult to prove without actually feeling it, but the lack of forechest itself would usually point to a short upper arm


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Afinmore said:


> Lol - it's difficult to prove without actually feeling it, but the lack of forechest itself would usually point to a short upper arm


Which is why I said at the outset (sorry BenCooper) - I really didn't like doing it from a photo - or on a public forum - sometimes you see a dog in a photo and think they are to die for - other times, the photos don't do them justice


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Afinmore said:


> Sorry, Sue; I'd have to disagree slightly with you re the upper arm. It's definitely not 'too long' (is there such a thing in labs? - they're usually too short!) more too short and as the shoulder isn't laid back enough it helps make the the neck look shorter than perhaps it is. The lack of angulation and lack of length to the upper arm creates that straightness to the front that makes him look as if he has no forechest (where the sternum is), when in fact he has - it's just that the elbows are too far forward and therefore hiding the forechest
> 
> I'd also say he has plenty of stop and the muzzle is correct in relation to the head - it should be equal from stop to nose and stop to occiput
> 
> Not a bad looking working dog though! He has much more stop than some workers, and other than the front and slightly short neck he's well enough made.


Sorry Ben - hope you're not offended by all this  He is a lovely boy 

I criticise the construction of mine all the time - doesn't mean I love them any the less, but does mean that I can make the right choices for breeding partners (if they are good enough to be bred from, that is!)

I agree with you completely, Afinmore! He is upright in shoulder and very short in upper arm, making his front legs be placed much too far forward.

(This is a problem we see in Ridgebacks too - in fact by far the majority have poor fronts and it's almost being accepted as the norm. One reason I imported a boy with a super front :lol: )


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Morning guys, wow that pic has caused a bit if a stir hasn't it!

Don't worry about offending me here, I asked the question afterall! I was and still am genuinely interested in what you guys have to say. As I'm not going to try and put him to stud(is that an ok term?) it makes no difference and I would be naive to think that you were gonna come back and say 'Oh my god he's perfect! He's the best looking Lab I've ever seen!'. It is nice to know that he's not the worst example though 

From looking at the pics provided by Swarthy I can see your point about chest depth 

I'd like to say it's nice to be on a forum where people can have a proper adult debate about a subject, you all have your differing opinions and you all respect everyone else's, very cool :thumbup:

Here's a pic of him sat in front of me, no idea if this makes any difference to your arguments but I love it when he has this face on him. It's like he's saying 'What a proud Labrador I am!' :lol:










Different note again and a bit of topic but do you guys think he's a decent weight? We have worried before that he wasn't heavy enough(although when I pick him up that changes, it's a good thing I go to the gym!). When he is off lead and really galloping and when he's out of breath you can see the outline of his ribs. I've been told for dogs in general that's a good thing but is it for Labs? I'm putting it down to his lean build, we've always fed him alot he just never puts any weight on!

Thanks again ,
Ben

Whoops I just reread some posts and Swarthy you mention you feel he's a good weight so no need to answer that!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'd have said he looks fine weight wise too, I'm a fan of keeping them with less padding on, some prefer to have a bit of weight on their Labs, and I know it's one of those contentious issues re show dogs. Some to me do look overweight, but I know others who show, who make a huge effort to make sure their dogs are fit, not fat, so the shape is the actual conformation of the dog, not padded out 

If you wanted to know more about your dog, either post the KC name, or even better, names of Sire and Dam, and I'm sure when Swarthy gets a min, she'd put them in her fan dabby dosey database and tell you a couple of interesting facts. Or pm her if you don't want to post openly (sorry Swarthy, creating extra work for you, if only you didn't have such a fab database, chuckle).


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'd have said he looks fine weight wise too, I'm a fan of keeping them with less padding on, some prefer to have a bit of weight on their Labs, and I know it's one of those contentious issues re show dogs. Some to me do look overweight, but I know others who show, who make a huge effort to make sure their dogs are fit, not fat, so the shape is the actual conformation of the dog, not padded out
> 
> If you wanted to know more about your dog, either post the KC name, or even better, names of Sire and Dam, and I'm sure when Swarthy gets a min, she'd put them in her fan dabby dosey database and tell you a couple of interesting facts. Or pm her if you don't want to post openly (sorry Swarthy, creating extra work for you, if only you didn't have such a fab database, chuckle).


Ok I can't find his docs at the mo so can't get the parents names but his KC name is Lukyma's Prince Kenobi (95% sure that's it, never use it so not entirely sure that's how you spell the first bit . I find these KC names hilarious and can never say it with a straight face). If it makes any difference we got him from a lady in Poole.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BenCooper said:


> Ok I can't find his docs at the mo so can't get the parents names but his KC name is Lukyma's Prince Kenobi (95% sure that's it, never use it so not entirely sure that's how you spell the first bit . I find these KC names hilarious and can never say it with a straight face). If it makes any difference we got him from a lady in Poole.


Just about to go get the dogs out, I'm running about an hour late today as I had a lie in (unhead of usually)  but I think it should just be 'Lukyma' as the kennel name  Edited to add, actually you might well be right having had a quick peek on their website, I might be looking at his Mum right now 

Mine are both from Chapelrose, and are Chapelrose Indian Princess (Indie), and Chapelrose Lala Tau (pronounced lay lay and Tau rhymes with cow) - which translates to Sleeping Lion


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just about to go get the dogs out, I'm running about an hour late today as I had a lie in (unhead of usually)  but I think it should just be 'Lukyma' as the kennel name  Edited to add, actually you might well be right having had a quick peek on their website, I might be looking at his Mum right now
> 
> Mine are both from Chapelrose, and are Chapelrose Indian Princess (Indie), and Chapelrose Lala Tau (pronounced lay lay and Tau rhymes with cow) - which translates to Sleeping Lion


Kennel name is spot on - breeders are allowed to include an 's' or apostrophe 's' in the kennel name if it fits - as I have done with a couple of mine as it roles off the tongue better 

As he isn't health tested - can't pick up mum and dad's details - I am a little surprised though now - because their dogs tend to be show bred - will be interesting to know the pedigree


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Here's the website guys.

Home


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Here's the website guys.
> 
> Home


Yes - I know them and regularly see them at shows - but there isn't a dog on their website who could be your boys mother if he is three - so curious to know what his breeding is - what is his date of birth?


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Yes - I know them and regularly see them at shows - but there isn't a dog on their website who could be your boys mother if he is three - so curious to know what his breeding is - what is his date of birth?


It was the 5th of 11th August(I can't remember at the moment, shocking behaviour!)

We've just sent them an email with some pics of Obes as we haven't been in touch since he was about 5 months old. Janey was very sad to see Obi go, he was their fave out of the litter.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it!

Swarthy, I've tried to get a good side shot of Tau, but she's not playing as usual, just gave me a goofy look and didn't really lift her tail up, but here's the pic in any case, and one of Indie from the side. She's not quite as tucked up, but still more so than Tau, but I think that's partly down to having a deeper chest than Tau.



















Right, must get on, I've been trying to finish updating my website for two days, and keep getting distracted with interesting posts!!!


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> It was the 5th of 11th August(I can't remember at the moment, shocking behaviour!)
> 
> We've just sent them an email with some pics of Obes as we haven't been in touch since he was about 5 months old. Janey was very sad to see Obi go, he was their fave out of the litter.


Swarthy, I've got in touch with Janey via email now, she was very pleased to see pics of Obi and we're gonna keep sending them. I've asked how his Mum and siblings(litter mates? Not sure of the correct term) are getting on so I'll see if that sheds any light on this.

This is being nosey and maybe a bit rude now but how do they they get on at shows? Does Janey visit this forum? I'm sure they are but are they considered 'reputable' breeders? Before getting Obes home we visited 3 or 4 times and they were always very nice. Again apologies if this is bit rude

SL, Tau is beautiful looking dog :thumbup:


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## Afinmore (May 22, 2008)

Have you been happy with Obi up to now? Were you happy enough in the first place when you bought him? Is so, why should one or two throwaway remarks on an online forum make you doubt your dog's breeder's reputation? 

She obviously does show as 2011 Crufts qualifications can only have been gained this past year for youngsters. She also looks to have some very nice dogs, and as one breeder has this past year bred an IGL runner and a CC winner in the show ring I don't think it's ever possible to 'buttonhole' labrador breeders completely. Many have switched from working dogs to show and vice versa (and indeed even back again!) as their interests change and grow!


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Afinmore said:


> Have you been happy with Obi up to now? Were you happy enough in the first place when you bought him? Is so, why should one or two throwaway remarks on an online forum make you doubt your dog's breeder's reputation?
> 
> She obviously does show as 2011 Crufts qualifications can only have been gained this past year for youngsters. She also looks to have some very nice dogs, and as one breeder has this past year bred an IGL runner and a CC winner in the show ring I don't think it's ever possible to 'buttonhole' labrador breeders completely. Many have switched from working dogs to show and vice versa (and indeed even back again!) as their interests change and grow!


Hi Afinmore, yes we're very happy with Obi and we were very happy when we bought him. I didn't mean to come across like that , I was just being a bit nosey as to what their reputation was in those circles that's all.

The whole family was really nice and accomodating, I remember chatting with their little boy about World of Warcraft as my little sis was playing it at the same time . Janey was very good with the Mum and the pups, when we came to pick we knew we wanted a boy so she got the 3 boys out and we sat down in the kitchen with them. One went off in the corner not wanting to know, the second was a bit manic but the third one walked up to Mich, got into her lap and fell asleep. Obi had picked us .

Again I didn't mean to come across as untrusting, I just wanted to know a bit more about them that's all.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Again I didn't mean to come across as untrusting, I just wanted to know a bit more about them that's all.


Blimey - where has all this come from? no-one said anything negative about them - my only comment was I was surprised as most of the dog were from the show side - how that can be construed as buttonholing someone or knocking them back I have no idea 

We regularly attend the same shows, and they have some very nice dogs, some bought in, others home bred - and have done very well at all levels in the showring - and their young boy is a super little handler.


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## Afinmore (May 22, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Blimey - where has all this come from? no-one said anything negative about them - my only comment was I was surprised as most of the dog were from the show side - how that can be construed as buttonholing someone or knocking them back I have no idea
> 
> We regularly attend the same shows, and they have some very nice dogs, some bought in, others home bred - and have done very well at all levels in the showring - and their young boy is a super little handler.


I never said you (or anyone else for that matter!) were being negative Sue; I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to be negative about any kennel on a public forum without very good cause.

I was just a little saddened that there suddenly seemed some sort of mystery about a working bred dog from a current show kennel, and as I'm sure you know from previous forum experience these things can raise suspicion very quickly. The fact that the OP seemed to be questioning whether the breeder of his dog was reputable, despite having already bought from there, was a tad worrying, and as I'm sure you have experienced from other forums, mountains can be made out of molehills very easily with no just cause.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think it's got taken out of context a little, because Obi looks working bred, but perhaps he isn't, not every litter from a show kennel is guaranteed to produce show winning or even show type pups are they? So I think the query was really just an 'I did ok by going to this breeder' type of thing, not a 'dish the dirt' request


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Afinmore said:


> I never said you (or anyone else for that matter!) were being negative Sue; I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to be negative about any kennel on a public forum without very good cause.
> 
> I was just a little saddened that there suddenly seemed some sort of mystery about a working bred dog from a current show kennel, and as I'm sure you know from previous forum experience these things can raise suspicion very quickly. The fact that the OP seemed to be questioning whether the breeder of his dog was reputable, despite having already bought from there, was a tad worrying, and as I'm sure you have experienced from other forums, mountains can be made out of molehills very easily with no just cause.


OK - I see where you are coming from Fiona - my interest as you and SL probably know, but others may not, is in the breeding, as I keep a very comprehensive database and I am always curious to know what is producing what - often purely for interest purporses and trying to expand my knowledge.

If the OP or anyone else felt my posts inferred anything negative, that was never my intention - I know the kennel predominantly on a show level - but we always say hello and often have a chat - and as already emphasised - they do have some very nice dogs 

And you are right - if I felt negatively about something, I would simply abstain from commenting.

BC - I am sorry if my comments gave you any cause for concern - my nosiness got the better of me that's all


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## dogcrazy (Jan 3, 2011)

The Lukyma kennels are reputable and all her puppies are raised in the house with alot of love, care and devotion.

As Afinmore say things about breeders very quickly get out of hand and so far this discussion has not gotten out of hand.

Janey started with working labs and the mother of your dog is Amber a beautiful fox red labrador who has since moved to a pet home. Janey now has show bred labs and wins well in the ring throughout the year. 

I have made Janey aware of this forum and what it contains, but I hope this post helps.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think any pet owner who is not "in the know" is going to be a bit interested as to whether the breeder that they think is wonderful, is perhaps not thought as well of, in the breeding community, if they get the chance to ask.
I think there have been occasions on here where pet owners and even some breeders mention what a wonderful breeder their dog's breeder is, when those "in the know" just whistle and look the other way, as they know a far different story. 
Ben, I know nothing about your dog's breeder, I hasten to add.


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Guys I'm really sorry this has escalated to this point. Swarthy I think I took your comment about Obi's breeding the wrong way and it worried me a bit that you couldn't find any records about his parents. 

Dogcrazy, thanks for pointing that out to me, I was looking at the Lukyma website and couldn't see Amber anywhere so after Swarthy's comments that I took wrongly I guess alarm bells started ringing :frown:

Again Janey and her family were brilliant when we were there and through the whole process, I wasn't trying to say otherwise. The last thing I would want is Janey thinking I thought she was dodgy :frown:

All I was asking is if they were well known breeders, that's all I meant. Lauren has it spot in 

P.S Dogcrazy, what did you actually say to Janey? I don't want her getting the wrong impression.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Guys I'm really sorry this has escalated to this point. Swarthy I think I took your comment about Obi's breeding the wrong way and it worried me a bit that you couldn't find any records about his parents.


All this means is there would be no ancestry on the KC health database - this is because your boy isn't health tested - no other reason - absolutely nothing sinister at all - I am sorry if you took it the wrong way  _<makes mental note to explain herself better in future>_


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks Swarthy, now I'm just worried what is going back to Janey


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BenCooper said:


> Thanks Swarthy, now I'm just worried what is going back to Janey


She has clearly been made aware of this thread - nobody has said anything negative or bad other than a touch of confusion - relax and enjoy your boy


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

swarthy said:


> She has clearly been made aware of this thread - nobody has said anything negative or bad other than a touch of confusion - relax and enjoy your boy


Thanks again Swarthy, I don't want Janey thinking I'm questioning her breeding skills or her dogs or anything at all. This whole thread was really about me trying to understand more about my boy, that's all


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## dogcrazy (Jan 3, 2011)

*P.S Dogcrazy, what did you actually say to Janey? I don't want her getting the wrong impression.*

Hi

I have told her what u were asking and first she was confused but have taken her through the whole conversation and explained that because people questioned that u had a worker from her when they knew she bred show dogs everyone was a little confused. She is fine about it all.

I can't remember the name of the father of your dog but I know he is a very nicely bred working labrador.


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## BenCooper (Dec 29, 2010)

dogcrazy said:


> *P.S Dogcrazy, what did you actually say to Janey? I don't want her getting the wrong impression.*
> 
> Hi
> 
> ...


Thanks Dogcrazy that's put my mind at rest 

We only saw pics of the father, he was a lovely looking Lab as is Amber


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