# TNR ... A good idea?



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

TNR = Trap Neuter Release

Should this programme be more wide spread and include any stray cat found on the street?

I'm aware there are pros and cons for this. 

Please discuss in an amicable manner if possible


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Personally I'd be all for neutering ANY cat found wandering and entire. Stuff the owner being huffy about it ... cat first.

I'd not personally want to see domesticated cats put back out on street to fend for themselves, rather see them pts than turned out after neutering.

In some ways I'd feel same about ferals unless they had someone to at least look out for them in case they became ill etc.

Short and sweetish


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Yes. I agree with it entirely. If a cat is out unneutered, in my opinion the owner has sacrificed all rights to its reproductive organs. 

If they were planning on it anyway, then woo done for free. If they weren't, well that sort of owner prob either doesn't care enough to notice or won't care about their cats welfare anyway.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Yes. I agree with it entirely. If a cat is out unneutered, in my opinion the owner has sacrificed all rights to its reproductive organs.


I just love the way you put that ... no messing and I agree 100%


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I would be for the idea if the anaesthetic pre-test was done first. I know it would be more costly but say you picked up someones pet that was allergic? Sure they should be indoor pets only but if they came forward for the cat you could tell them the cat should be indoors only or try rehome it in a home suited to it.


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## Riobelle (Jun 3, 2010)

Yes definitely. I live in a street full of cats but my girls are all indoor cats (apart from using their run) and there are unneutered toms who hang round my house and hassle my girls. I know an entire hussy siamese girl in full call  is probably too much to resist but they are a real nuisance, will be impregnating other queens and are fighting so much between themselves they are battle scarred and hurt. Not a happy life for these toms and I fully support all cats being neutered if not part of a responsible breeding program. Its not a happy life for cats being unneutered often and it can be an even unhappier life for their offspring xxx


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

It could be a good idea for ferals. But in my opinion it should only be done after EVERY effort was made to locate the owner first! Checking for chips, contacting vets and advertising on all possible outlets for owners who may be searching.

It should also allow a suitably long time for owners to try to locate their cat. 

Not all entire cats are roaming the streets due to owner neglect. There are genuine instances of escape and loss, and of cats which cannot be neutered for medical reasons. 

If my girl escaped and became lost, and someone picked her up and neutered her without making a more than adequate attempt to locate me, I would hit the roof!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> I would be for the idea if the anaesthetic pre-test was done first. I know it would be more costly but say you picked up someones pet that was allergic? Sure they should be indoor pets only but if they came forward for the cat you could tell them the cat should be indoors only or try rehome it in a home suited to it.


The cat should be microchipped. I wonder if microchips can hold information, medically, about anything.

But, I still hold that it should be neutered or indoor. If it's out it's a danger to other peoples cats from fighting and I dint agree with endangering other peoples neutered animals.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> I would be for the idea if the anaesthetic pre-test was done first. I know it would be more costly but say you picked up someones pet that was allergic? Sure they should be indoor pets only but if they came forward for the cat you could tell them the cat should be indoors only or try rehome it in a home suited to it.


A pre op blood test would not pick up on an allergy gratch. You get the odd cat that has a reaction to anaesthesia, but it's a chance you take, in rescue or as private owner.

Rescues (that I know of) only blood test older cats or ones with obvious problems ... same as most owners


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Dozymoo said:


> It could be a good idea for ferals. But in my opinion it should only be done after EVERY effort was made to locate the owner first! Checking for chips, contacting vets and advertising on all possible outlets for owners who may be searching.
> 
> It should also allow a suitably long time for owners to try to locate their cat.
> 
> ...


I assume you have a girl with medical issues which prevent a spay. Would this medical issue also cause complications if she were to get pregnant? Or needed a c section? Genuinely interested...


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> A pre op blood test would not pick up on an allergy gratch. You get the odd cat that has a reaction to anaesthesia, but it's a chance you take, in rescue or as private owner.
> 
> Rescues (that I know of) only blood test older cats or ones with obvious problems ... same as most owners


Why the heck did my vet charge me £40 then? Blah, need to call them tomorrow about that :/


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## Donskie (Feb 2, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> The cat should be microchipped. I wonder if microchips can hold information, medically, about anything.
> 
> But, I still hold that it should be neutered or indoor. If it's out it's a danger to other peoples cats from fighting and I dint agree with endangering other peoples neutered animals.


I am sure that some medical information can be held on file with the microchipping company. Its worth an ask and it would help vets if this info is available should no owner be available.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

I've only really seen TNR in operation for feral colonies. It's a big time and expense for whoever to set out to trap cats...and just for one cat wandering the streets I don't think it'd be worth their while.
Someone I used to know who does trapping used to do pretty well taming quite a lot of the 'ferals' and she'd only release if she really couldn't tame them, otherwise if she could she'd rehome them.
But it's been proven that if you remove a colony of ferals it creates a vacuum and more will more in...
So yeh, TNR any cat why the hell not, apart from practicalities.
Plus there'd need to be some obvious way of identifying neutered cats, with ferals they are ear tipped, but I can't see cat owners going for that, and if there is no obvious way of telling cats will be scooped up off the streets time and time again and possibly the girls opened up to see if they are done.

If compulsory microchipping was brought in (but doubt it ever will for cats) then it'd be a good case for TNR of any cat found but the you've got the whole regulating of it all...who's going to check their microchips and phone the owner to demand to know why young Sonny Jim is wandering the streets with his crown jewels


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

All vets I know who neuter strays do microchip scan up to three times before operating. ( in case the first scan misses it)

If I had an unneuterable cat and suddenly was rendered unable to shut my doors and windows, I would make sure she was microchipped with a notice about her/his condition.

I am assuming a pregnancy would be just as dangerous as a spay though? C sections require anaesthetic yep? Pregnancy is a huge stress on the body...

Re: ear tipping, that could happen in any outdoor or indoor accident so I don't see how cat owners could complain!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Dozymoo said:


> It could be a good idea for ferals. But in my opinion it should only be done after EVERY effort was made to locate the owner first! Checking for chips, contacting vets and advertising on all possible outlets for owners who may be searching.
> 
> It should also allow a suitably long time for owners to try to locate their cat.


Rescues do scan cats but ultimately it's up to the owner to get off their bums and look for their pet. Rather than the rescue to desperately try and find owner 

Rescues rarely have the resources or the time to hunt about or hang around ...


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> All vets I know who neuter strays do microchip scan up to three times before operating. ( in case the first scan misses it)
> 
> If I had an unneuterable cat and suddenly was rendered unable to shut my doors and windows, I would make sure she was microchipped with a notice about her/his condition.
> 
> ...


Not advocating pregnancy here BUT: pregnancy is natural, spaying is not.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Rescues do scan cats but ultimately it's up to the owner to get off their bums and look for their pet. Rather than the rescue to desperately try and find owner
> 
> Rescues rarely have the resources or the time to hunt about or hang around ...


I found a rabbit recently, have advertised the little thing absolutely bloody everywhere. Trying so hard to find the owner. Either they dont want to be found, or are making no bloody effort to find their animal. Im even the first google hit when you search for lost rabbit york!

So yeah, Im sure its easy to put up a notice in all local vets about your cat, pet stores.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> Not advocating pregnancy here BUT: pregnancy is natural, spaying is not.


Keeping cats as pets isnt natural


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## popoki (Dec 28, 2010)

I read about this the other day.

Belgium plans to neuter most cats as feline population explodes | World news | The Guardian

No idea if the law ever came into force, but an interesting idea. I don't know if it would manage the issue of ferals very effectively, and I do wonder if it might make people less likely to taken kittens to the vets if they don't want them spayed.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I found a rabbit recently, have advertised the little thing absolutely bloody everywhere. Trying so hard to find the owner. Either they dont want to be found, or are making no bloody effort to find their animal. Im even the first google hit when you search for lost rabbit york!
> 
> So yeah, Im sure its easy to put up a notice in all local vets about your cat, pet stores.


I can believe it. At one time local rescue would advertise cats they found in local paper, but rarely did anyone claim them, and if they did rarer still did they offer to pay for advert


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Ridiculous idea, sorry. 

Liz


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

My mum's currently having a problem with next doors unneutered males, they strut round the garden and come into her house like they own it, trying to fight with her neutered males, she even gave to woman the number of the vets where she could get them done for a fiver each!!! 

Also, where males are concerned, they spray in your house dont they, and it stinks. my mum had a male cat do that, and she couldn't get the smell out of the wall paper for ages (she dint know how old he was, he was spayed as soon as he did it, and it was about 24 years ago now so dunno what the practise was of spaying cats)


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Gratch said:


> Not advocating pregnancy here BUT: pregnancy is natural, spaying is not.


Can't believe I am reading such nonsense 

Spaying might not be natural but it's humane and the responsible thing to do ... Whether kitty is domesticated or bless them feral.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> Ridiculous idea, sorry.
> 
> Liz


I guess it would be a shame if the local tom you wanted to join your breeding programme were to be neutered...

Sorry but at least back up why its ridiculous?


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Rescues do scan cats but ultimately it's up to the owner to get off their bums and look for their pet. Rather than the rescue to desperately try and find owner
> 
> Rescues rarely have the resources or the time to hunt about or hang around ...


Absolutely it is up to owners to search for their cat. But rescues don't usually pick up cats until they have been reported as strays and they are clearly not being cared for. But with TNR what's to stop rescues picking up any animal from the street, even if it's only been out on the street for a few hours? That is why there should be guidelines in place saying that a suitably long time is allowed before neutering takes place.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> Can't believe I am reading such nonsense
> 
> Spaying might not be natural but it's humane and the responsible thing to do ... Whether kitty is domesticated or bless them feral.


Ay ay ay, I CLEARLY stated beforehand that I wasn't advocating pregnancy. But pregnancy is a natural state for the body, removing reproductive organs is not. I wasn't saying it's bad to spay/neuter, you're just looking for an argument.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Ridiculous idea, sorry.
> 
> Liz


Surely as a pro lifer (which is your belief) you could not possibly be suggesting they are all simply and killed?

Or does pro life only apply to the unborn kittens?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Gratch said:


> Ay ay ay, I CLEARLY stated beforehand that I wasn't advocating pregnancy. But pregnancy is a natural state for the body, removing reproductive organs is not. I wasn't saying it's bad to spay/neuter, you're just looking for an argument.


My post regarding the dangers of pregnancy vs spaying was a genuine question. Not trying to compare the two. I simply thought that if a cat was too ill to have a spay, then it would likely for its body to not cope with the stresses of pregnancy, which would be even more reason not to let a cat escape under any circumstances if it had such a condition.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Double post


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Double post


Thank you for making my like look insane now  lol


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> My post regarding the dangers of pregnancy vs spaying was a genuine question. Not trying to compare the two. I simply thought that if a cat was too ill to have a spay, then it would likely for its body to not cope with the stresses of pregnancy, which would be even more reason not to let a cat escape under any circumstances if it had such a condition.


Fair enough.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Having given this thread 5 stars myself I see the 1 star fairy must also be awake now


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Wouldn't it be fabulous if we could get the microchip companies to make it so that a letter is added onto the end of the number that comes up on the litter screen of the scanner when a cat is scanned. Perhaps a Y or N for nuetured or not. Even perhaps a S or Q for breeding studs and queens.

It would then be down to the owners of every cat to pass the information on to the chipping company if they do spay their animal or they are breeding stock.

Plus I think every cat trapped and neutered should be chipped to let the TNR people know which ones they have done previously. It should make the whole process much quicker. If the cat they trap has a chip already they should be able to read what status the cat is (either nuetured or not, breeding stock or not) Plus you could even have a special letter for cats that have reactions to anesthetic ... you could even go as far as to have a letter added by the chipping company should your cat have diabetes or other serious medical conditions.

I'll be having a chat to the chip companies soon to see if this is possible, with a view to trying to change things country wide. I do think this may be one of the only effective ways to start reducing numbers in rescue quicker than is already happening.

It would be made even quicker if chipping became compulsory as Doolally says!



Gratch said:


> Not advocating pregnancy here BUT: pregnancy is natural, spaying is not.


Thus coming from someone who let her moggies breed.



lizward said:


> Ridiculous idea, sorry.
> 
> Liz


Short and to the point. I understand why you say that though, after all you let your entire cats roam the streets during winter don't you?

How many litters did you have through the winter month this year Liz?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

It would be very good for cats to have microchips which contained some information! Surely it cannot be that difficult if it can contain a name and address, just an extra line with a bit of medical info.

Also chipping them in general with an owner of 'neutered' would be a good idea! Solves the 'problem' of possibly attempting to do the same cat twice (though ear tipping and, dont some tattoo a little on the belly? maybe I imagined that)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I guess it would be a shame if the local tom you wanted to join your breeding programme were to be neutered...
> 
> Sorry but at least back up why its ridiculous?


Because it is the females that get pregnant and therefore directly contribute to the moggy overpopulation problem. Yes, entire males are a pain (I did in fact get one neutered once after he had been hanging around for months) but it is the females who get pregnant. What are you going to do, open every one of them up? Pass some law to say that every neutered female must have her ear "tipped" at the same time?

Not to mention the precedents it would set - it would either mean that no cat ever actually belonged to its owners in law, or that ownership in law was meaningless when animals were concerned because any busybody has the right to pick up an animal and remove it. We have enough problems with well-meaning people picking up cats and deciding they are homeless now, what do you imagine it would be like if we actually gave people the right to do so in law? All cats would be indoor or they would be fair game for anyone. Still, I suppose that might force rescues to rehome to indoor homes so perhaps something good might come out of it.

But it's only a pipe dream anyway, it will never happen.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Wouldn't it be fabulous if we could get the microchip companies to make it so that a letter is added onto the end of the number that comes up on the litter screen of the scanner when a cat is scanned. Perhaps a Y or N for nuetured or not. Even perhaps a S or Q for breeding studs and queens.


Now that would be a good idea.

Liz


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I dont see why ear tipping is such an issue... like I said before there are a million things which could have resulted in a similar injury (though not as 'precise' and obvious as to to show a neuter)

I dont see how placing the blame only on the females makes any sense. Anyway females have a lot more reason, in my opinion, to get spayed due to the health complications of unmated calls.

Both are needed to make kittens, therefore equal 'blame' is on each gender.

There is nothing in law to say people CANNOT neuter strays. So, to make a specific law to say they CAN would probably make little difference, as you can already.

Im not saying someone should pick up any cat off the street. but a clearly intact tom, or a calling female, or one they see hanging around constantly, yes. I agree this is unregulated, but, with precautions to prevent girls constantly being opened up with either chips with info or an ear tip, I cant see any negatives.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Keeping in mind how much red tape and additional work such a policy would create, and how underfunded rescues appear to be, how would it be paid for? I can't imagine the average British tax payer would be interested...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Both are needed to make kittens, therefore equal 'blame' is on each gender.


Another way of looking at it is this. Suppose that on your local council estate (hey, there's a bit of prejudice!) there are 10 entire females and 4 youngish entire males (males are more likely to get run over hence the difference in numbers in my scenario) and you TNR 3 of the 4 males. Assuming no more males move into the area, what effect do you think the reduction in the number of males will have on the number of litters born? if you TNR 3 of the females, what effect will that have?



> There is nothing in law to say people CANNOT neuter strays. So, to make a specific law to say they CAN would probably make little difference, as you can already.


I agree that the chances of anyone bringing a successful prosecution are low, but technically neutering someone else's cat is damaging their property, isn't it? The fact that most people would see it as improvement rather than damage isn't the point - if my neighbour has a car that is some ghastly colour and I "borrow" it and respray it in a colour most people like, I would still be done for criminal damage unless my neighbour happened to like the new colour better (and even then the neighbour would be very annoyed at the way I had gone about it, and rightly so!)



> I agree this is unregulated, but, with precautions to prevent girls constantly being opened up with either chips with info or an ear tip, I cant see any negatives.


But opening it up like this would positively encourage people to steal cats, especially if someone else was paying for the neutering!

Liz


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Wouldn't it be fabulous if we could get the microchip companies to make it so that a letter is added onto the end of the number that comes up on the litter screen of the scanner when a cat is scanned. Perhaps a Y or N for nuetured or not. Even perhaps a S or Q for breeding studs and queens.
> 
> It would then be down to the owners of every cat to pass the information on to the chipping company if they do spay their animal or they are breeding stock.
> 
> ...


Pretty good idea actually. That would prevent girls being opened up unnecessarily.

And I'd be all for compulsory chipping.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Dozymoo said:


> Keeping in mind how much red tape and additional work such a policy would create, and how underfunded rescues appear to be, how would it be paid for? I can't imagine the average British tax payer would be interested...


Ah ha! Now I do have a plan for this too  Something which I'll share at some point, but for now lets just says it's not something to worry about for the time being.  If the idea is feasible that's the important thing right now money to fund it can always be found, it doesn't have to come from the taxpayers involuntary.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

> I agree that the chances of anyone bringing a successful prosecution are low, but technically neutering someone else's cat is damaging their property, isn't it? The fact that most people would see it as improvement rather than damage isn't the point - if my neighbour has a car that is some ghastly colour and I "borrow" it and respray it in a colour most people like, I would still be done for criminal damage unless my neighbour happened to like the new colour better (and even then the neighbour would be very annoyed at the way I had gone about it, and rightly so!)


My understanding is the law prevents injury or death to an animal, rightly so.

The law doesnt consider spaying and neutering a injury.

No criminal charges could be brought. Civilly you could possibly claim. However you would have to claim for loss of income or pain and suffering. Pain and suffering does not come into it. Loss of income could only be technically brought in a case where stud/litter services were part of a breeding programme. And the negligent act of allowing it to roam free would mean this was not a viable court case.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

compulsary chipping could possibly work like the dog licensing in USA (which I think we should also have over her for dogs) I got a free microchip with the vaccinations when I took my kitten, so it doesn't always have to cost loads if you fone round a bit  and then if you know all domestic pets are chipped, any that aren't are automatically stray, even if they're loved, owners should have got a chip or risk losing their pet, also, would places be able to refuse giving them back unless owners paid for chipping? or would that class as theft?


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## Ruggy (Feb 7, 2011)

Why the heck is chipping not compulsory anyway.


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## Ruggy (Feb 7, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Ah ha! Now I do have a plan for this too  Something which I'll share at some point, but for now lets just says it's not something to worry about for the time being.  If the idea is feasible that's the important thing right now money to fund it can always be found, it doesn't have to come from the taxpayers involuntary.


You're going on Dragon's Den, and just don't want to share your ideas. No?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Ruggy said:


> Why the heck is chipping not compulsory anyway.


I dont see why people dont do it. Im tempted to get my rabbits chipped after my experiences with mr Bun bun here. Gonna take him to get scanned but if the owners cant even check the rspca and the internet I doubt they cared about him enough to chip him!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I don't see any reason why this couldn't work you know!

If we got the backing of all the cat charities and local councils to run such 'schemes' ... well it could definately work 

It would take some hard work, contacting chipping companies and what not first to see if it's even possible, then perhaps create a new charity devoted to actively helping reduce number in rescue centres. With setting up a charity comes more hard work with fundraising, awareness and such ... Who volunteers to go on This Morning? :lol:

It may sound like a pipe dream or what have you, but there is no harm in trying!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> My understanding is the law prevents injury or death to an animal, rightly so.
> 
> The law doesnt consider spaying and neutering a injury.
> 
> No criminal charges could be brought. Civilly you could possibly claim. However you would have to claim for loss of income or pain and suffering. Pain and suffering does not come into it. Loss of income could only be technically brought in a case where stud/litter services were part of a breeding programme. And the negligent act of allowing it to roam free would mean this was not a viable court case.


I agree it would be a civil claim and would be decided on financial loss (or perhaps pain and suffering to the owner?) I doubt whether allowing the cat to roam free would be regarded by a court as negligent, it is after all the norm. I think you might find a few moggy breeders claiming that their kitten income was reduced, don't forget some of them charge (and presumably get) £100 for unvaccinated 6 week olds in some parts of the country.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Ruggy said:


> You're going on Dragon's Den, and just don't want to share your ideas. No?


:lol: Unfortunately not. No I'm talking about ways or raising funds, fun days and what not, or even getting cat shows to donate just 1% of their revenue from show admissions and what not. Such a very small number, but huge if you could get them all to do it. Plus there is also the Lottery and the chipping companies themselves.

EDIT: I seem to have a thing for saying 'what not' today :lol:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I dont see why people dont do it. Im tempted to get my rabbits chipped after my experiences with mr Bun bun here. Gonna take him to get scanned but if the owners cant even check the rspca and the internet I doubt they cared about him enough to chip him!


Not necessarily true. The owners might well be thinking that having had him chipped, any rescue that picks him up will automatically have scanned him and therefore may have assumed that he has either been stolen or eaten 

Liz


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Civilly you could possibly claim. However you would have to claim for loss of income or pain and suffering. Pain and suffering does not come into it. Loss of income could only be technically brought in a case where stud/litter services were part of a breeding programme. And the negligent act of allowing it to roam free would mean this was not a viable court case.


IMO a hobby breeder could argue mental pain and suffering. Say they've spent years working on their breeding lines, lovingly raising their kittens and after a long wait the perfect show cat is born. She's unneutered as she's on the active register but one day she escapes ( accidentally 1 day after you move home so her microchip is unfortunately due an update). Then along comes the rescue, and they neuter her before the owner has had an adequate chance to find her. That breeder would be seriously upset and hurt at having that decision made for them. A rare and extreme example maybe, but possible...


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> I agree it would be a civil claim and would be decided on financial loss (or perhaps pain and suffering to the owner?) I doubt whether allowing the cat to roam free would be regarded by a court as negligent, it is after all the norm. I think you might find a few moggy breeders claiming that their kitten income was reduced, don't forget some of them charge (and presumably get) £100 for unvaccinated 6 week olds in some parts of the country.
> 
> Liz


Pain and suffering for the owner wouldnt come into it legally. You cannot suffer on behalf of another human, never mind animal 

From precedent the act of letting a breeding animal roam free would be considered negligent. There was a case with a mini dachshund which I cannot for the life of me find in journals, but it was intended as a stud and was caught and neutered by a lady, and the finding was that basically, your roaming cat could be run over, shot, killed in a fight, fall off a cliff, strangle itself, etc etc, all of which worse than being neutered. The closing was to basically be happy it was back intact.

I have not seen a case successfully won for a civil claim over breeding 'monies' to be earned under such circumstances. Also any monies to be earned are unproveable, as your cat may give birth to all stillborns, or not have fertile semen, etc.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Dozymoo said:


> IMO a hobby breeder could argue pain and suffering. Say they've spent years working on their breeding lines, lovingly raising their kittens and after a long wait the perfect show cat is born. She's unneutered as she's on the active register but one day she escapes ( accidentally 1 day after you move home so her microchip is unfortunately due an update). Then along comes the rescue, and they neuter her before the owner has had an adequate chance to find her. That breeder would be seriously upset and hurt at having that decision made for them. A rare and extreme example maybe, but possible...


That is not pain and suffering, that is perhaps, at a stretch, loss of income for time spent.

Again, in my personal opinion, there is no accidental reason to let your cat out. If you have lovingly raised it etc, the youd be happy to get it back in one piece. not 'oh yey my beautiful lovely cat is back, but you cant have kittens?? well now im pissed!'

Sorry btu any loving cat owner would be happy with the cat back.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

TNVR (V for vaccinate) is probably a good idea on feral colonies if the colony lives in a relatively safe place and the land owner + the people who live near the colony is supportive.

If focusing on feral colonies the risk for owned cats being spayed/neutered is minimal. The rescuers tend to know their ferals quite well.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> TNVR (V for vaccinate) is probably a good idea on feral colonies if the colony lives in a relatively safe place and the land owner + the people who live near the colony is supportive.
> 
> If focusing on feral colonies the risk for owned cats being spayed/neutered is minimal. The rescuers tend to know their ferals quite well.


There are folk already doing this for feral cats in places of the UK, but I'm talking about it being the thing for any cat found wandering the streets, not just ferals.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sorry havent read all the posts.

I think maybe a scan for a MC, then give owners 7 days to come forward (like most rescues?) As say a kitten/cat did get out and it was a indoor pedigree cat, I wouldnt want it released back to where it was as it wouldnt survieve if its been kept as a indoor cat? make sense?


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> Sorry havent read all the posts.
> 
> I think maybe a scan for a MC, then give owners 7 days to come forward (like most rescues?) As say a kitten/cat did get out and it was a indoor pedigree cat, I wouldnt want it released back to where it was as it wouldnt survieve if its been kept as a indoor cat? make sense?


I was thinking while I was in the bath ... I know chips are there mostly for finding lost pets. BUT they are really only read when one is picked up because it's injured or what have you.

So, along with the idea of putting letters on the end of the code that comes up when a cat is scanned for other things, maybe an L for lost and please return/contact the owner would be a good to.

So long as the micro chipping company storing the details of the chips has a data base that can be edited, then it would be easy enough for the to add these letters on if an owner was to call up and ask them to.

I was also thinking .. to prevent some people from getting them to add a Y on the end to say their pet is neurtured when it's not (because they don't want it to be for any reason), perhaps it would be a good idea if only vets could submit neuter confirmation once they have done the procedure. All it would take is for them to create a list that can be emailed to the chipping companies daily for quick and easy data input.


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> If you have lovingly raised it etc, the youd be happy to get it back in one piece. not 'oh yey my beautiful lovely cat is back, but you cant have kittens?? well now im pissed!'


Sorry absolutely creasing myself :lol:

loved that 'well now im pissed' bit, every time i read it i chuckle 

good job im the only one here or id b getting some funny looks lol


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> I was thinking while I was in the bath ... I know chips are there mostly for finding lost pets. BUT they are really only read when one is picked up because it's injured or what have you.
> 
> So, along with the idea of putting letters on the end of the code that comes up when a cat is scanned for other things, maybe an L for lost and please return/contact the owner would be a good to.
> 
> ...


although a nice enough idea, this is all pie in the sky as the current microchipping systems often dont work to reunite pet with its owner, because the owners dont update the microchip details when they change phone number or move house. if pet owners cant make these very simple changes then i really dont think enough of them would be willing to update the database (which costs money, and someone has to pay for it) with things like "cat is now neutered". every mutation in the database needs paying for and the owners ultimately would need to be the ones to pay for that. the more expensive microchipping becomes the less people who will microchip their pets. i wish they would bring in a law where any unchipped cat automatically becomes the property of the local authority who would then hand it over to a shelter, and the same for cats with microchips with out of date details


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Oh I don't deny a lot of people won't/can't be arsed with updating details, and I know it will cost money to do such things (though I do believe the data input required for such a thing would be a one or two person job for the whole country ) ... the microchipping company would win because more chips would be purchased.

But more importantly the people who genuinely care enough about their pets would have the option to be thorough to protect their cats.

I agree 100% with your last sentence though


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

where i live microchipping is free or about £5 depending on where you go! if a cat hat isnt microchipped then it should be nutered..if you cant even be bothered to chip your cat then you definatly cant b bothered to care for kittens properly! I do feel if a cat is microchipped and is entire then every effort should be made to find the owner (especially if you can see it is some sort of pedigree).... they could be a grandchampion stud who for some freak accident got let out! (the owner must still take responsibility for this though) and be desperatly looking for their cat !!!! but then again thats the chance you take!


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> There are folk already doing this for feral cats in places of the UK, but I'm talking about it being the thing for any cat found wandering the streets, not just ferals.


That's just a plain bad idea. Should it be illegal to let your fertile cats roam free you would need a system that ensures that lost breeding cats aren't neutered/spayed (no, you don't have to be an irresponsible breeder in order for a cat to manage to get out... somtimes all you need is bad luck). Of course a breeder is thrilled just to get a lost cat back, but it can be quite devastating not to get all the parts back.

I also wonder who should pay for it. A rescue can of course bill the owner for the basic necessities (food, emergency care etc.) but can they really bill the owner for unnecessary surgery?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Cerridwen said:


> That's just a plain bad idea. Should it be illegal to let your fertile cats roam free you would need a system that ensures that lost breeding cats aren't neutered/spayed (no, you don't have to be an irresponsible breeder in order for a cat to manage to get out... somtimes all you need is bad luck). Of course a breeder is thrilled just to get a lost cat back, but it can be quite devastating not to get all the parts back.
> 
> I also wonder who should pay for it. A rescue can of course bill the owner for the basic necessities (food, emergency care etc.) but can they really bill the owner for unnecessary surgery?


Why should people have no responsibility?! It is irresponsible to let an animal out, accident or not. Whose responsibility is it to keep the cat in? No such thing as bad luck. Bad luck doesnt leave doors open - humans do. Bad luck doesnt leave windows open - humans do.

If a breeder is devastated to not get their animal back intact, then they have their priorities wrong. Very wrong.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Cerridwen said:


> That's just a plain bad idea. Should it be illegal to let your fertile cats roam free you would need a system that ensures that lost breeding cats aren't neutered/spayed (no, you don't have to be an irresponsible breeder in order for a cat to manage to get out... somtimes all you need is bad luck). Of course a breeder is thrilled just to get a lost cat back, but it can be quite devastating not to get all the parts back.
> 
> I also wonder who should pay for it. A rescue can of course bill the owner for the basic necessities (food, emergency care etc.) but can they really bill the owner for unnecessary surgery?


Please re read the thread hun. This was covered on post #33


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> IMO a hobby breeder could argue mental pain and suffering. Say they've spent years working on their breeding lines, lovingly raising their kittens and after a long wait the perfect show cat is born. She's unneutered as she's on the active register but one day she escapes ( accidentally 1 day after you move home so her microchip is unfortunately due an update). Then along comes the rescue, and they neuter her before the owner has had an adequate chance to find her. That breeder would be seriously upset and hurt at having that decision made for them. A rare and extreme example maybe, but possible...


O gosh yes, I have heard of stud cats escaping, it happens.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Pain and suffering for the owner wouldnt come into it legally. You cannot suffer on behalf of another human, never mind animal


Are you sure? People seem to be able to claim for distress in all sorts of situations - and get awarded huge sums of money for it too (I wish someone would pinch my bottom and allow me to claim hundreds of thousands of pounds because they have offended me, for example!) I am not a lawyer though.



> From precedent the act of letting a breeding animal roam free would be considered negligent. There was a case with a mini dachshund which I cannot for the life of me find in journals, but it was intended as a stud and was caught and neutered by a lady, and the finding was that basically, your roaming cat could be run over, shot, killed in a fight, fall off a cliff, strangle itself, etc etc, all of which worse than being neutered. The closing was to basically be happy it was back intact.


That would be an interesting one to read if you could find it.



> I have not seen a case successfully won for a civil claim over breeding 'monies' to be earned under such circumstances. Also any monies to be earned are unproveable, as your cat may give birth to all stillborns, or not have fertile semen, etc.


Well, a proven stud is a proven stud, and in some breeds they are worth an awful lot of money entire. And they can and do escape. I would like to see microchipping comulsory for all studs, though.

Liz


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

A major microchip company is hoping to launch a system by which the breeder's details will be held on file, so if the current owner cannot be traced they will try the breeder's contact details. They already operate this system if you contact them. This means all responsible pedigree or moggy breeders can go some way towards preventing their kittens ever ending up in rescue.

I wholeheartedly agree with TNR for any roaming cat. If my breeding cats escape it is most likely they are going to mate or be mated in which case neutering is not the worse case senario as unwanted pregancy or a beaten up stud boy could be worse. If my cat's escape and are neutered it serves me right. And it would perhaps reduce the number of Tom's outside my door chirruping at my girls through a UPVC door.

I support the microchip coding system for neuters if it was possible and strongly suggest breeders speak to their microchip company and chip their kittens. Then they know if a kitten they bred gets lost and the new owner hasn't updated their details it will not add to the rescue numbers. I know most breeders commit to taking back a kitten they sell at any point anyway, this is a practical way of fulfilling this.

Katy


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Why should people have no responsibility?! It is irresponsible to let an animal out, accident or not. Whose responsibility is it to keep the cat in? No such thing as bad luck. Bad luck doesnt leave doors open - humans do. Bad luck doesnt leave windows open - humans do.


How long do you think it takes a stud cat to sneak out on the one occasion you have failed to close the safety door? I know people it has happened to, they would never ever have let their studs out deliberately.



> If a breeder is devastated to not get their animal back intact, then they have their priorities wrong. Very wrong.


You would not say that if you were a breeder.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Alaskacat said:


> If my breeding cats escape it is most likely they are going to mate or be mated in which case neutering is not the worse case senario as unwanted pregancy or a beaten up stud boy could be worse.


You really consider an accidental litter to be worse than losing your best breeding queen? An abscess to be worse than losing your stud? Well, perhaps you have a breed where breeding cats are easily obtained.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> How long do you think it takes a stud cat to sneak out on the one occasion you have failed to close the safety door? I know people it has happened to, they would never ever have let their studs out deliberately.
> 
> You would not say that if you were a breeder.
> 
> Liz


Well I am glad Im not a breeder then, as my cats mean more to me than their testicles and womb. I love my cats, not their bloody genitals!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

And as for your bum pinching scenario. That is a direct action to you which distressed you.

You cannot claim P&S on behalf of the animal. And how could you prove that it had caused you distress. Sexual harrassment is illegal, so you dont have to prove it distressed you, they shouldnt have been doing it anyway.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> You really consider an accidental litter to be worse than losing your best breeding queen? An abscess to be worse than losing your stud? Well, perhaps you have a breed where breeding cats are easily obtained.


Liz why is it so hard to understand that some breeders are not breeding for status? and that their morals allow them the fortune of thinking of their breeding stock as much loved pets first and foremost.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well I am glad Im not a breeder then, as my cats mean more to me than their testicles and womb. I love my cats, not their bloody genitals!


Please don't take that as the norm. She certainly does not speak for me, and I doubt she does for many other reputable breeders either.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well I am glad Im not a breeder then, as my cats mean more to me than their testicles and womb. I love my cats, not their bloody genitals!


I don't think that is a very fair comment. I love my girl very much, she is my family and if the choice was her or her womb of course she's of utmost importance. I would never rehome her, she's my baby for life!

But she is a breeding queen. If God forbid I was burgled and she escaped through a broken window and some one picked her up and neutered her without making adequate efforts to locate me, I would be furious. Yes I would be thrilled to have her home, but no one should ever make the decision for me as to when she is neutered!

(of course this is probably irrelevant as my cats are microchipped so I would hope it would never go that far...)


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Dozymoo said:


> I don't think that is a very fair comment. I love my girl very much, she is my family and if the choice was her or her womb of course she's of utmost importance. I would never rehome her, she's my baby for life!
> 
> But she is a breeding queen. If God forbid I was burgled and she escaped through a broken window and some one picked her up and neutered her without making adequate efforts to locate me, I would be furious. Yes I would be thrilled to have her home, but no one should ever make the decision for me as to when she is neutered!
> 
> (of course this is probably irrelevant as my cats are microchipped so I would hope it would never go that far...)


You have taken precautions to protect her in that instance, ie, the microchip. I have never said they should be neutered without checking for a microchip.

However, if it wasnt microchipped, then i would say you would be lucky to get your cat back at all, never mind intact. this is the situation I am talking about, not when an owner is easily traced using a microchip.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> How long do you think it takes a stud cat to sneak out on the one occasion you have failed to close the safety door? I know people it has happened to, they would never ever have let their studs out deliberately.
> 
> You would not say that if you were a breeder.
> 
> Liz


I've read the whole of this thread up to this point and don't disagree with much of what you say, Liz, except with great exception to the above. If I managed to allow a stud of mine to escape; a cat who only knows the confines of home and garden, who has no road sense, who would not know how to fend for himself, who would, if he survived up to that time, by roaming in search of females to mate... do you really think that, as a breeder, I would be cheesed off if he were safely returned to me having been neutered?


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2011)

Yes!

All outdoor cats should be nuetered.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2011)

Gratch said:


> Not advocating pregnancy here BUT: pregnancy is natural, spaying is not.


:bored:

BS!!! :rolleyes5:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> And as for your bum pinching scenario. That is a direct action to you which distressed you.
> 
> You cannot claim P&S on behalf of the animal. And how could you prove that it had caused you distress. Sexual harrassment is illegal, so you dont have to prove it distressed you, they shouldnt have been doing it anyway.


Well as I said, I am not a lawyer, but surely proving that the loss of your breeding line had caused you severe distress wouldn't be difficult. There are plenty of "no win no fee" firms out there. It would be interesting to see a test case.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I've read the whole of this thread up to this point and don't disagree with much of what you say, Liz, except with great exception to the above. If I managed to allow a stud of mine to escape; a cat who only knows the confines of home and garden, who has no road sense, who would not know how to fend for himself, who would, if he survived up to that time, by roaming in search of females to mate... do you really think that, as a breeder, I would be cheesed off if he were safely returned to me having been neutered?


Yes I do! Mind you, if you hadn't had him microchipped you would be partly to blame, but a pedigree looking entire male on the loose ought to suggest "escaped stud" to any sensible organisation than picks him up. O yes of course it would be better to get him back neutered than not at all, but the stud cat is the most important part of your breeding programme.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kunzy said:


> :bored:
> 
> BS!!! :rolleyes5:


You think pregnancy is not natural or that spaying is?

I think a little education on the meaning of the word "natural" is called for. Of course pregnancy is natural, that's why cats get pregnant unless you do something to stop it. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't spay the cat of course, we interfere with nature as soon as we have pets, but the fact remains that reproduction is natural.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Liz why is it so hard to understand that some breeders are not breeding for status? and that their morals allow them the fortune of thinking of their breeding stock as much loved pets first and foremost.


As you are very new to breeding, you are not in the same position as an established breeder. When you have spent decades building a line, and thousands of pounds, then you might understand. There are breeders who import cats from half way across the world to further a line. The majority of serious breeders (this does not mean professional breeders, just serious ones) regularly neuter and rehome their retired breeding cats because if they don't do that they can never move on with the line, they just have too many cats. I am in the position where I will have to do that this year and it isn't a nice thing to do, though of course you take great care about where the cats will be going. But yes, the line IS more important to a serious breeder than any individual cat within it (than most, anyway - most of us have "heart cats" who stay long after they have finished breeding and are just our beloved pets)

Liz


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

lizward said:


> As you are very new to breeding, you are not in the same position as an established breeder. When you have spent decades building a line, and thousands of pounds, then you might understand. There are breeders who import cats from half way across the world to further a line. The majority of serious breeders (this does not mean professional breeders, just serious ones) regularly neuter and rehome their retired breeding cats because if they don't do that they can never move on with the line, they just have too many cats. I am in the position where I will have to do that this year and it isn't a nice thing to do, though of course you take great care about where the cats will be going. But yes, the line IS more important to a serious breeder than any individual cat within it (than most, anyway - most of us have "heart cats" who stay long after they have finished breeding and are just our beloved pets)
> 
> Liz


So a new breeder is not allowed a voice then is that right?
Thank God I seldom wander into the cat section!
Coz everytime I do there seems to be sh*t hitting the fan!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

lizward said:


> You think pregnancy is not natural or that spaying is?
> 
> I think a little education on the meaning of the word "natural" is called for. Of course pregnancy is natural, that's why cats get pregnant unless you do something to stop it. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't spay the cat of course, we interfere with nature as soon as we have pets, but the fact remains that reproduction is natural.
> 
> Liz


No education needed for any numpty to know that there are too many homeless cats in the world and that spaying prevents this!

I m moving out now so have fun!

I am sweet and innocent next to you lot!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So a new breeder is not allowed a voice then is that right?


That isn't what I said at all - and the idea of Aurelia not having a voice is rather amusing :lol:

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> No education needed for any numpty to know that there are too many homeless cats in the world and that spaying prevents this!


I don't see anyone disputing that 

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> That isn't what I said at all - and the idea of Aurelia not having a voice is rather amusing :lol:
> 
> Liz


:lol: Almost as amusing as thinking of you as being an ethical breeder!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Oh dear! Did I end up in a hornets nest! I only came outta dog coz I was fearful of getting stung!
Seems I went from the frying pan to the fire!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes I do! Mind you, if you hadn't had him microchipped you would be partly to blame, but a pedigree looking entire male on the loose ought to suggest "escaped stud" to any sensible organisation than picks him up. O yes of course it would be better to get him back neutered than not at all, but the stud cat is the most important part of your breeding programme.
> 
> Liz


I don't know how else I can say it to convince you that I feel differently. My first and main concern would be that he'd been returned to me in once piece.. minus two small pieces of course  I'd find it very hard to forgive myself the stupid mistake I'd made in letting him out should anything worse have happened.

I have a very popular breed that I've been breeding for almost 30 years and, should the worst happen, it wouldn't be difficult for me to regain the line of breeding through the few entire boys that have gone to breeder/friends and, yes, I'm one of those you mention who has spent a fortune on my breeding programme which includes importing cats. But I can absolutely assure you that those facts would be of no relevance when it comes to the point which we're discussing.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Why should people have no responsibility?! It is irresponsible to let an animal out, accident or not. Whose responsibility is it to keep the cat in? No such thing as bad luck. Bad luck doesnt leave doors open - humans do. Bad luck doesnt leave windows open - humans do.
> 
> If a breeder is devastated to not get their animal back intact, then they have their priorities wrong. Very wrong.


Not very humble are you? You've never been in an emergency situation? A car crash (cats and dogs do get loose even when properly set up in a cage/carrier)? A fire?

My biggest problem would however not be that someone picked up my cat and had it spayed/neutered. It would be that they actuarally pick up my cat, take it to the vet, have it spayed/neutered and then *let it out again*!

That's irresponsible. Yes, I'd rather see that my cats are PTS than let loose again. That's a lot better than have them run loose in the city.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> I have a very popular breed that I've been breeding for almost 30 years and, should the worst happen, it wouldn't be difficult for me to regain the line of breeding through the few entire boys that have gone to breeder/friends


Well then I would say that is why you feel differently. I am not in that happy position. I lost my Burmese line years ago and have no wish to repeat the experience in a hurry.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Oh dear! Did I end up in a hornets nest! I only came outta dog coz I was fearful of getting stung!
> Seems I went from the frying pan to the fire!


it's always like this round here 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> My biggest problem would however not be that someone picked up my cat and had it spayed/neutered. It would be that they actuarally pick up my cat, take it to the vet, have it spayed/neutered and then *let it out again*!


Yes that's another issue. If a cat that is picked up is obviously friendly and well cared for, it clearly has an owner, and every effort should be made to return the cat to the owner. It would be nice to be able to educate the local neighbourhood do-gooders on that point as well 

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes that's another issue. If a cat that is picked up is obviously friendly and well cared for, it clearly has an owner, and every effort should be made to return the cat to the owner. It would be nice to be able to educate the local neighbourhood do-gooders on that point as well
> 
> Liz


Cats picked up by rescues are very often never claimed, never chipped, never neutered, no identification ... how hard should rescues try to find the numpties that own them? 

Best just get them checked over and booked in for neutering


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well then I would say that is why you feel differently. I am not in that happy position. I lost my Burmese line years ago and have no wish to repeat the experience in a hurry.
> 
> Liz


Alright, I concede  I obviously don't know my own mind or understand my own, obviously thoroughly confused, emotions on the subject.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes I do! Mind you, if you hadn't had him microchipped you would be partly to blame, but a pedigree looking entire male on the loose ought to suggest "escaped stud" to any sensible organisation than picks him up. O yes of course it would be better to get him back neutered than not at all, but the stud cat is the most important part of your breeding programme.
> 
> Liz


I think any sensible cat rescue organisation would neuter regardless of how much a pedigree it looked if no microchip ... "everyone" has pedigree cats now it's not unusual ... and a un-neutered pedigree Tom cat screams back yard breeder


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well then I would say that is why you feel differently. I am not in that happy position. I lost my Burmese line years ago and have no wish to repeat the experience in a hurry.
> 
> Liz


Just one thing though as I'm sitting here thinking about it. In the highly unlikely event that you were to ever meet my OH, please, whatever you do, don't let on that that is how I REALLY feel about my beloved cats. He wouldn't want to spend his life with someone like that and would be out of the door pretty fast.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> Cats picked up by rescues are very often never claimed, never chipped, never neutered, no identification ... how hard should rescues try to find the numpties that own them?
> 
> Best just get them checked over and booked in for neutering


If they're not chipped then the answer surely should be the same as dogs - you keep them for 7 days before rehoming. In those 7 days you do nothing to the cat beyond what is medically necessary (and yes, if the owner turns up, you bill them for the cat's medical care unless they can prove that the problem was caused directly by the person who took the cat in the first place)

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> If they're not chipped then the answer surely should be the same as dogs - you keep them for 7 days before rehoming. In those 7 days you do nothing to the cat beyond what is medically necessary (and yes, if the owner turns up, you bill them for the cat's medical care unless they can prove that the problem was caused directly by the person who took the cat in the first place)
> 
> Liz


The cats will normally be in rescue care (in my experience) for more than 7 days anyway, by the time they are checked over by vet and neutered. Good rescues will give cat chance to settle before op and want to access it before placing in home. Pregnant cats will, be spayed quickly for obvious reasons.

Billing the owner, that made me chuckle


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> Yes that's another issue. *If a cat that is picked up is obviously friendly and well cared for, it clearly has an owner, and every effort should be made to return the cat to the owner*. It would be nice to be able to educate the local neighbourhood do-gooders on that point as well


I am quoting you here but it applies to at least 4 posters on this thread who have said the same or similar

when a cat goes missing *it is the owners responsibility to do the legwork*. it is not the responsibility of the rescue centre to contact the owner, though many do when the cat is microchipped and the microchip deatils are current, but microchip details are often not up to date, and many cats that end up in rescues have no microchips. zin these cases ther eis nothing the rescue orgs can do, well I suppose there is but it all costs money and staff time, neither of which they have enough of

It is the responsbility of the owner to contact evey resuce organisation in the area where the cat could conceivably have wandered to (been driven to) in that time frame, put ads in papers, contact vets surgeries etc.

it does not work the other way around as many seem to think, that the shelter or cat rescue organisation should be making some massive effort to locate the owner. the law states its the owner of the missing cat who has to do the legwork. and if a shelter has a cat for 14 days* and the owner hasnt come forward they become the legal owners and can neuter and rehome the cat.

*i think the legal wait period is 14 days, willing to stand corrected on that


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

lizward said:


> If they're not chipped then the answer surely should be the same as dogs - you keep them for 7 days before rehoming. In those 7 days you do nothing to the cat beyond what is medically necessary (and yes, if the owner turns up, you bill them for the cat's medical care unless they can prove that the problem was caused directly by the person who took the cat in the first place)
> 
> Liz


That's what I was trying to say. In principle, I am in favour of trapping stray cats, neutering and rehoming (not released). But firstly, adequate measures should be taken to ensure that they are strays. Checking for microchips would obviously be the first port of call. But if, for whatever reason, a chip is not found or the details are not up to date, the owner must be given enough time to try and locate their pet. I'd say 7 days is a very minimum.

But, these sort of guidelines would, I imagine generate a lot of red tape, and would need considerable financing. Which is why I don't honestly see it being rolled out nationwide.

But as a means of controlling feral populations, I can certainly see the benefits....

(just as a side note, I hadn't even heard of microchipping cats until I bought my first pedigree in 2008... so general education of the public is, as ever, a key point...)


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> The cats will normally be in rescue care (in my experience) for more than 7 days anyway, by the time they are checked over by vet and neutered. Good rescues will give cat chance to settle before op and want to access it before placing in home. Pregnant cats will, be spayed quickly for obvious reasons.
> 
> Billing the owner, that made me chuckle


i think i am right in saying that if the owners come forward to claim their pet the rescue is not obliged to hand the pet over when or if the owners refuses to pay the bill

and yes in some circumstances, pregnant cats for instance, neuters do happen before the legal waiting period has been completed (thank goodness), but i think a vet has to give the ok on that one, that the neuter is in the health interests of the cat


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

In answer to the original question ....I think there has to be a lot more discussion and rules put in place before I would say yes - even though Im all for Neutering! I do accept that some cats may escape by accident - so until there is a sure fire way of ensuring the cat in question has had the owner notified or found and has their permission then I would not agree.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I don't know how else I can say it to convince you that I feel differently. My first and main concern would be that he'd been returned to me in once piece.. minus two small pieces of course  I'd find it very hard to forgive myself the stupid mistake I'd made in letting him out should anything worse have happened.
> 
> I have a very popular breed that I've been breeding for almost 30 years and, should the worst happen, it wouldn't be difficult for me to regain the line of breeding through the few entire boys that have gone to breeder/friends and, yes, I'm one of those you mention who has spent a fortune on my breeding programme which includes importing cats. But I can absolutely assure you that those facts would be of no relevance when it comes to the point which we're discussing.





lizward said:


> Well then I would say that is why you feel differently. I am not in that happy position. I lost my Burmese line years ago and have no wish to repeat the experience in a hurry.
> 
> Liz


how can you possibly suggest that just because gskinner hasnt has a wipeout of her breeding lines, that is why she feels differently to you? could it not just be that she just loves her cats, without or without their reproductive organs? and would be happy just to have them back alive and well? so what if you had a line wiped out when your stud cat escpaed, wound up in a shelter, and you as owner werent able to locate him within the legal waiting period time scale and he was neutered. surely any person who loves their cat, the most important fact is that he is alive and well?


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> In answer to the original question ....I think there has to be a lot more discussion and rules put in place before I would say yes - even though Im all for Neutering! I do accept that some cats may escape by accident - so until there is a sure fire way of ensuring the cat in question has had the owner notified or found and has their permission then I would not agree.


there is a surefire way already, and this is already law

when your cat disappears you have 7 days (or it might be 14 days) to find him and reclaim him. you have to find him, the finder legally doesnt have to come looking for you. though you might just luck out if your cat is microchipped and the mictrochip details are up to date that the shelter will contact you. after those 7 (or 14) days no permission is needed to neuter, the cat is no longer yours


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

catsmum said:


> how can you possibly suggest that just because gskinner hasnt has a wipeout of her breeding lines, that is why she feels differently to you? could it not just be that she just loves her cats, without or without their reproductive organs? and would be happy just to have them back alive and well? so what if you had a line wiped out when your stud cat escpaed, wound up in a shelter, and you as owner werent able to locate him within the legal waiting period time scale and he was neutered. surely any person who loves their cat, the most important fact is that he is alive and well?


I'm pretty astounded too. It's one thing to have a totally different viewpoint on a certain matter but something else entirely to be told how you feel and why you feel it. And I guess there's no point in arguing with someone who thinks they know your own mind better than you do


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm pretty astounded too. It's one thing to have a totally different viewpoint on a certain matter but something else entirely to be told how you feel and why you feel it. And I guess there's no point in arguing with someone who thinks they know your own mind better than you do


i am ashamed to admit that some breeders care more about "their goal" than they do about the individual animals they use to achieve that goal

but for that type of breeder to suggest that every breeder feels that way is a total insult to breeders who love their cats more than they love their goal


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

catsmum said:


> there is a surefire way already, and this is already law
> 
> when your cat disappears you have 7 days (or it might be 14 days) to find him and reclaim him. you have to find him, the finder legally doesnt have to come looking for you. though you might just luck out if your cat is microchipped and the mictrochip details are up to date that the shelter will contact you. after those 7 (or 14) days no permission is needed to neuter, the cat is no longer yours


7 days is that all!  not long considering how many people you would have to ring etc etc......


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> so until there is a sure fire way of ensuring the cat in question has had the owner notified or found and has their permission then I would not agree.


Then there would be a h*ll of a lot of cats roaming entire or spending their lives in rescue waiting for (non existent) owners to be found 

Not sure why some people cannot grasp the fact that the majority or certainly many of cats picked up by rescues have no ID and nobody gives that gives a jot about them


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> 7 days is that all!  not long considering how many people you would have to ring etc etc......


It's certainly long enough for an owner who cares to contact local rescues


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

catsmum said:


> I am quoting you here but it applies to at least 4 posters on this thread who have said the same or similar
> 
> when a cat goes missing *it is the owners responsibility to do the legwork*. it is not the responsibility of the rescue centre to contact the owner, though many do when the cat is microchipped and the microchip deatils are current, but microchip details are often not up to date, and many cats that end up in rescues have no microchips. zin these cases ther eis nothing the rescue orgs can do, well I suppose there is but it all costs money and staff time, neither of which they have enough of
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing with you here. It's the owners responsibility to look for a lost cat, but you have to give it a couple of days. 14 days would be fair enough, that's a good "security system" that gives the owner time to find the cat.

In Sweden however you can't claim lost property (which cats goes as here) until after three months so we actually have good "safety system" (but I doubt the rescue centers wait that long for neutering and rehoming).

And still, I'd be furious if my cat was picked up by a rescue center and then throwed out back on the streets again.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Not sure why some people cannot grasp the fact that the majority or certainly many of cats picked up by rescues have no ID and nobody gives that gives a jot about them


I don't deny that is true. The huge number of abandoned and unwanted cats in rescue cannot be denied by anyone.

But you have to consider that, once in a while, a cat might be picked up that is truely loved and for whom the owner is desperately searching. If the system of TNR were to be implemented, then measures would have to be taken to ensure that these owners were given a chance to locate their pets before any surgery takes place....


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> I don't deny that is true. The huge number of abandoned and unwanted cats in rescue cannot be denied by anyone.
> 
> But you have to consider that, once in a while, a cat might be picked up that is truely loved and for whom the owner is desperately searching. If the system of TNR were to be implemented, then measures would have to be taken to ensure that these owners were given a chance to locate their pets before any surgery takes place....


Agree - As DM says I am under no illusion that there are many irresponsible owners but can we say that ALL are??? I dont think we can make that judgement for all cat owners.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Dozymoo said:


> If the system of TNR were to be implemented, then measures would have to be taken to ensure that these owners were given a chance to locate their pets before any surgery takes place....


The "measure" is called microchipping, it's readily available and rescues are already scanning cats on admission


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Agree - As DM says I am under no illusion that there are many irresponsible owners but can we say that ALL are??? I dont think we can make that judgement for all cat owners.


No one has said all are? But those that let that their cats roam entire and/or unchipped, fall into that category for sure.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> No one has said all are? But those that let that their cats roam entire and/or unchipped, fall into that category for sure.


Some yes but I still would not say all - until we knew the full circumstances.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Cerridwen said:


> I'm not arguing with you here. It's the owners responsibility to look for a lost cat, but you have to give it a couple of days. 14 days would be fair enough, that's a good "security system" that gives the owner time to find the cat.
> 
> In Sweden however you can't claim lost property (which cats goes as here) until after three months so we actually have good "safety system" (but I doubt the rescue centers wait that long for neutering and rehoming).
> 
> And still, I'd be furious if my cat was picked up by a rescue center and then throwed out back on the streets again.


the title of the thread (TNR) only happens with feral cats

so the title of the thread, and the way it has developed is a bit misleading

pet cats may go through the trap part, though normally that isnt needed, as most are easy enough to pop into a carrier, yes they will be neutered after the appropraite legal waiting time, but a pet cat will never be "released". they are always rehomed as pets. the only cats that are "released" are ferals

i would support some kind of system where any pet cat, pedigree or moggy, that isnt microchipped or whose microchip details are not up to date, automatically becomes the property of the shelter it ends up in and could be legally neutered and rehomed immedaitely. if people cant be bothered microchipping their pets, and keep the address and phone number on the microchip up to date, then in my eyes they dont have any rights as owners. but even these cats would never be thrown out on to the streets, they would be (are) rehomed as pet cats. it really is only feral cats that TNR applies to. there may be some overlap between pets and ferals with the TN part of TNR, but the R part of TNR is solely for ferals


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> No one has said all are? But those that let that their cats roam entire and/or unchipped, fall into that category for sure.


We'll have to agree to disagree there. I think there could be instances where a cat is trapped and is unchipped. Not all owners simply "let their cats roam entire", there are occasions of genuine escape / loss.

And as I said earlier, not all people know about microchipping. I would personnally like to see the public educated, and affordable microchipping become law. Then, once that is firmly in place, I'd be more open to a policy of TNR being introduced.

It doesn't help that microchipping can be so expensive in some areas. It cost me £17 per kitten for my first litter....


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

suzy93074 said:


> Some yes but I still would not say all - until we knew the full circumstances.


would you support a measure where an owner forfeits ownership rights when their roaming cat wasnt microchipped, or when microchip details werent up to date?


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree there. I think there could be instances where a cat is trapped and is unchipped. Not all owners simply "let their cats roam entire", there are occasions of genuine escape / loss.
> 
> And as I said earlier, not all people know about microchipping. I would personnally like to see the public educated, and affordable microchipping become law. Then, once that is firmly in place, I'd be more open to a policy of TNR being introduced.
> 
> It doesn't help that microchipping can be so expensive in some areas. It cost my £17 per kitten for my first litter....


I agree Education is the key here then such drastic measures would not always be needed.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Dozymoo said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree there. I think there could be instances where a cat is trapped and is unchipped. Not all owners simply "let their cats roam entire", there are occasions of genuine escape / loss.
> 
> And as I said earlier, *not all people know about microchipping. I would personnally like to see the public educated, and affordable microchipping become law*. Then, once that is firmly in place, I'd be more open to a policy of TNR being introduced.
> 
> It doesn't help that microchipping can be so expensive in some areas. It cost my £17 per kitten for my first litter....


oh come on, the information on microchipping is out there and has been *very easy* to find for at least the last decade, if not much longer. *society isnt reposnsible for educating cat owners, the person who buys the cat is responsible for educating themselves*, certainly on something as simple as microchipping. its a simple question of taking a new cat or kitten to a vet for a quick health check and asking something as simple as "what does my cat need?"

people need to start taking personal responsibility on simple facets of owning animals and not keep trying to pass the buck off with "well i didnt know about microchipping or neutering or worming or whatever". society is not responsible for educating pet owners, pet owners should assure that the buck stops at them and stop trying to pass the buck on to society as a whole


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

catsmum said:


> oh come on, the information on microchipping is out there and has been *very easy* to find for at least the last decade, if not much longer. *society isnt reposnsible for educating cat owners, the person who buys the cat is responsible for educating themselves*, certainly on something as simple as microchipping. its a simple question of taking a new cat or kitten to a vet for a quick health check and asking something as simple as "what does my cat need?"
> 
> people need to start taking personal responsibility on simple facets of owning animals and not keep trying to pass the buck off with "well i didnt know about microchipping or neutering or worming or whatever". society is not responsible for educating pet owners, pet owners should assure that the buck stops at them and stop trying to pass the buck on to society as a whole


I agree on this one. Even I knew at the age of 12 that cats could be given an ID tatoo in an ear (microchipping wasn't done at that time). If a 12 year old has the brain to find out about that, certainly an adult can.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

catsmum said:


> oh come on, the information on microchipping is out there and has been *very easy* to find for at least the last decade, if not much longer. *society isnt reposnsible for educating cat owners, the person who buys the cat is responsible for educating themselves*, certainly on something as simple as microchipping. its a simple question of taking a new cat or kitten to a vet for a quick health check and asking something as simple as "what does my cat need?"
> 
> people need to start taking personal responsibility on simple facets of owning animals and not keep trying to pass the buck off with "well i didnt know about microchipping or neutering or worming or whatever". society is not responsible for educating pet owners, pet owners should assure that the buck stops at them and stop trying to pass the buck on to society as a whole


I'm not trying to pass the buck, just trying to illustrate the fact that all people may not have the benefit of education that you or I might have.

I'm constantly surprised but how little people know about these things. It's only obvious if you've done the research and have background experience. Some people just aren't that way inclined and so cats will continue to go un-microchipped.

Unfortunately, it has to be idiot proofed for the general public before we begin introducing policies which could affect owners who genuinely do try their best.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Cerridwen said:


> I agree on this one. Even I knew at the age of 12 that cats could be given an ID tatoo in an ear (microchipping wasn't done at that time). If a 12 year old has the brain to find out about that, certainly an adult can.


if someone wasnt aware and responsible enough to know about microchipping, then i would worry that they werent responsible enough to know how to ensure basic feeding, health and vet care for a cat



Dozymoo said:


> I'm not trying to pass the buck, just trying to illustrate the fact that all people may not have the benefit of education that you or I might have.
> 
> I'm constantly surprised but how little people know about these things. It's only obvious if you've done the research and have background experience. Some people just aren't that way inclined and so cats will continue to go un-microchipped.
> 
> Unfortunately, it has to be idiot proofed for the general public before we begin introducing policies which could affect owners who genuinely do try their best.


Knowing the very basics of whats good for cats in not some benefit I am just lucky enough to have

I have the benefit of luck when my lottery numbers come up
I have the benefit of luck when I can get my wash dried outdoors without it raining
I have the benefit of luck when my toast falls buttered side up

but knowing the basics of cat welfare has nothing to do with the benefit of luck
it has to do with me educating myself in a very basic manner before I got a cat

all this cloud cuckoo land talk of educating people who aren't inclined to educate themselves on the benefits of microchipping, sorry, its naive and silly. People who have cats KNOW they should be neutered, but their wish to have a cute litter of kitten supersedes that, do you really think microchipping education would be more successful than neutering education? Of course it wouldn't.

I would hate to see one penny of valuable cat rescue resources wasted on educating people about microchipping, people you already admit "aren't that way inclined anyway" when it comes to doing the right thing, and the same goes for wasting tax money on educating people on the basic of cat ownership. All the information is out there, we just have to stop mollycoddling the cat owning public and start encouraging them to tone personal responsibility, anything else IS passing the buck. Its not societies task to educate cat owners on the basics, its the owners responsibility to educate themselves.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Personally I'd be all for neutering ANY cat found wandering and entire.


This.

If it was my cat, I would just be glad it was safe and someone had done it for me. Then again my cats would not be outside un-neutered/spayed.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> when a cat goes missing *it is the owners responsibility to do the legwork*. it is not the responsibility of the rescue centre to contact the owner, though many do when the cat is microchipped and the microchip deatils are current, but microchip details are often not up to date, and many cats that end up in rescues have no microchips. zin these cases ther eis nothing the rescue orgs can do, well I suppose there is but it all costs money and staff time, neither of which they have enough of


OK, I overstated. There is NO excuse for not scanning for a microchip! Beyond that, yes it takes a little effort, but I don't see that it takes a great deal to check the local paper every night for lost ads, and to put a "found" ad in - these are usually free. Don't forget every cat returned to its owner is one more rescue space available and saves money on food and perhaps vet fees.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> and yes in some circumstances, pregnant cats for instance, neuters do happen before the legal waiting period has been completed (thank goodness), but i think a vet has to give the ok on that one, that the neuter is in the health interests of the cat


If anyone ever did that to one of my cats, they would find themselves at the wrong end of a court summons no matter who they were, it would be plastered all over the tabloid press as well if I could get them interested!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

catsmum said:


> so what if you had a line wiped out when your stud cat escpaed, wound up in a shelter, and you as owner werent able to locate him within the legal waiting period time scale and he was neutered. surely any person who loves their cat, the most important fact is that he is alive and well?


Certainly that is important. I would still be absolutely livid and, if the cat was chipped and it was clear that the "rescue" had simply not bothered to check, I would sue. That would be theft, plain and simple. But then all my cats are chipped of course.

Liz


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

lizward said:


> If anyone ever did that to one of my cats, they would find themselves at the wrong end of a court summons no matter who they were, it would be plastered all over the tabloid press as well if I could get them interested!
> 
> Liz


Sounds like a case for judge judy!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Dozymoo said:


> It doesn't help that microchipping can be so expensive in some areas. It cost me £17 per kitten for my first litter....


My vet charges £27! That's why I do my own.

Liz


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

lizward said:


> My vet charges £27! That's why I do my own.
> 
> Liz


Good grief! How do they get away with that?!


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## loz83 (Mar 28, 2011)

my vets charge £25, even if you can be with the PDSA, they still charge £12.50 (half price) but i stuggled when I was with them with one of my cats, because they said it had to be one of the nurses that did it, and the only day I could get there with my cat was the nurses day off 

I had to end up paying full price for it doing


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

You see, everyone who knows about Microchipping agrees with Microchipping. Now we can all live happily ever after. TNR is a good basic concept as long as efforts are made to find the owner, time is given to let the owner find the lost cat and pet animals are not released back onto the street.

Blimey, I never post and now I'm summarising a thread, best get back on with my life. 

Gratch I love your signature

Katy


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

catsmum said:


> oh come on, the information on microchipping is out there and has been *very easy* to find for at least the last decade, if not much longer. *society isnt reposnsible for educating cat owners, the person who buys the cat is responsible for educating themselves*, certainly on something as simple as microchipping. its a simple question of taking a new cat or kitten to a vet for a quick health check and asking something as simple as "what does my cat need?"
> 
> people need to start taking personal responsibility on simple facets of owning animals and not keep trying to pass the buck off with "well i didnt know about microchipping or neutering or worming or whatever". society is not responsible for educating pet owners, pet owners should assure that the buck stops at them and stop trying to pass the buck on to society as a whole


Great post


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> OK, I overstated. There is NO excuse for not scanning for a microchip! Beyond that, yes it takes a little effort, but I don't see that it takes a great deal to check the local paper every night for lost ads, and to put a "found" ad in - these are usually free. Don't forget every cat returned to its owner is one more rescue space available and saves money on food and perhaps vet fees.
> 
> Liz


I think most rescues will check lost adverts, but few owners seem to bother placing ads if they lose their cats in my experience 

The rescue I am familiar with does not get it's ads placed freely they pay, do get a slightly reduced rate, something like pay for two nights, get one free!

Don't forget rescues do not wish to prevent cats returning home, but they haven't the time money or resources to be cat detectives 

The owner needs to get off their bum and take responsibility.


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I dont see why ear tipping is such an issue... like I said before there are a million things which could have resulted in a similar injury (though not as 'precise' and obvious as to to show a neuter)
> 
> .


Lots of people HATE ear tipping. I once 'accidently' let slip to the new owners of a cat who had been ear tipped but then consequently tamed and rehomed, what the ear tip actually was. They had thought it was an old fight injury which they were fine with, but they were absolutely horrified to know we had done it deliberately!!!
Lot's of owner's prefer to have 'cosmetic' work done on tail or ear tip fight injuries trying to preserve the original look even if amputation or 'tipping' would be easier all round and the cosmetic work requires lots of bandage chances etc, people get very upset if their kitties aren't 'perfect' any more


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Doolally said:


> Lots of people HATE ear tipping. I once 'accidently' let slip to the new owners of a cat who had been ear tipped but then consequently tamed and rehomed, what the ear tip actually was. They had thought it was an old fight injury which they were fine with, but they were absolutely horrified to know we had done it deliberately!!!
> Lot's of owner's prefer to have 'cosmetic' work done on tail or ear tip fight injuries trying to preserve the original look even if amputation or 'tipping' would be easier all round and the cosmetic work requires lots of bandage chances etc, people get very upset if their kitties aren't 'perfect' any more


How odd....


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I wouldn't want my cats ear tipped, feral cats its a good idea but owned cats no way...


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

canuckjill said:


> I wouldn't want my cats ear tipped, feral cats its a good idea but owned cats no way...


Is your cat already neutered though? Microchipped, etc?

I probably wouldnt want mine tipped, but if I had a non identifiable intact cat outside, I wouldnt be a good owner and I imagine I wouldnt care either way!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

To be honest, if any of my late cat's had accidentally got out and lost while entire, the least of my worries would have been if they'd come back ear tipped 

But then none of my cats had been adopted because they were "perfect" anyway, they weren't show cats, or breeding cats that would be displayed to potential buyers or those wanting to use them at stud. So an ear tip, while not my preference! Would not be the end of the world. 

Better that than a dead cat. Or one lost forever.


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## Donskie (Feb 2, 2011)

This may be a bit long but hopefully answers some questions:


gloworm*mushroom said:


> It would be very good for cats to have microchips which contained some information! Surely it cannot be that difficult if it can contain a name and address, just an extra line with a bit of medical info.


General info about the aminal (DOB, Breed, Colour etc) and owner details (name, address, tel no, email address) are basic information required on the microchip registration form. I contacted PetLog and once an animal has been registered with them, the owner can call the Aftercare Services Team on 0844 4633 999 (Monday to Friday 9-5) and add any medication or health information on to their pets record.



Aurelia said:


> So long as the micro chipping company storing the details of the chips has a data base that can be edited, then it would be easy enough for the to add these letters on if an owner was to call up and ask them to.


Information can be added once registered onto your pets details on their database, one of the quetions in the registration asks if pet is neutered/spayed. This has to be completed with a yes/no answer but can be amended if the animal is neutered/spayed later. But it is the owners responsibility to ensure that this information is kept up to date as it is with details should they move house etc.



Alaskacat said:


> A major microchip company is hoping to launch a system by which the breeder's details will be held on file, so if the current owner cannot be traced they will try the breeder's contact details.


Petlog will be introducing this very soon, there will also be a section to add kennel club registration numbers too. Hopefully this will eventulayy include the GCCF!

Hope this helps!!

I recently completed a microchip course and am now qualified, so all my kittens will leave micro chipped.


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## Emily1 (Apr 28, 2011)

lizward said:


> I agree that the chances of anyone bringing a successful prosecution are low,
> Liz


Actually, this does and has happened and the cat owner won. And they were right to win too. The rescue in question had even kept the cat in question for 2 weeks prior to neutering. The owner came forward just one day too late.



lizward said:


> but technically neutering someone else's cat is damaging their property, isn't it?
> Liz


Sure is.



gloworm*mushroom said:


> No criminal charges could be brought. Civilly you could possibly claim. However you would have to claim for loss of income or pain and suffering. Pain and suffering does not come into it. Loss of income could only be technically brought in a case where stud/litter services were part of a breeding programme. And the negligent act of allowing it to roam free would mean this was not a viable court case.


Sorry, but this is NOT true. Rescues have been sued and they have lost.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Emily1 said:


> Actually, this does and has happened and the cat owner won. And they were right to win too. The rescue in question had even kept the cat in question for 2 weeks prior to neutering. The owner came forward just one day too late.
> 
> Sure is.
> 
> Sorry, but this is NOT true. Rescues have been sued and they have lost.


I would love to read the case, Have a link to it?


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## Emily1 (Apr 28, 2011)

catsmum said:


> i think i am right in saying that if the owners come forward to claim their pet the rescue is not obliged to hand the pet over when or if the owners refuses to pay the bill
> 
> and yes in some circumstances, pregnant cats for instance, neuters do happen before the legal waiting period has been completed (thank goodness), but i think a vet has to give the ok on that one, that the neuter is in the health interests of the cat


It the charity I work for, ANY cat is handed back to its owner once proof of ownership is obtained whether they want to give us money or not. Its their animal. Simple. It would cost us more in legal fees to refuse than an unpaid bill.

Every stray cat is kept for 2 weeks prior to neutering. Even the pregnant ones, which often means that a cat that could have been neutered when it first comes in, cannot be after the 2 weeks period. Again, law suits are expensive.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Emily1 said:


> Actually, this does and has happened and the cat owner won. And they were right to win too. The rescue in question had even kept the cat in question for 2 weeks prior to neutering. The owner came forward just one day too late.
> 
> Sure is.
> 
> Sorry, but this is NOT true. Rescues have been sued and they have lost.


Can we have some proof of this please.


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## Emily1 (Apr 28, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> Can we have some proof of this please.


It wasn't publicised in any way as far as i'm aware.

I know I'm new and no one knows me here but you can chose to either believe or disbelieve. does not matter to me either way *shrugs*

I wan't even going to sign up or post but when I saw people's assumptions that this wouldn't happen, I has to comment.

Damaging other peoples property is illegal. Simple.

I might just add though, that I'm not entirely sure on the time they waited to neuter the cat. I'm assuming it was the 2 weeks as that is the length we all have to wait for strays. Though they may have broken the rules.

I only found out about this because we contacted our manager about a pregnant stray which we wanted to neuter as if we waited, she'd have to go to term. He said absolutely not and told us about the case. I believe it happened some time last year.

Sorry I can't give you more information


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Emily1 said:


> It wasn't publicised in any way as far as i'm aware.
> 
> I know I'm new and no one knows me here but you can chose to either believe or disbelieve. does not matter to me either way *shrugs*
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter to me if you're new or if you've been around for years  
People are bound to ask for evidence when claims like that are made. I'm aware one other member asked before me for links/evidence.

Without any evidence to back up what you claim, I'll take what you say 'with a pinch of salt'. My grandmother didn't give me the nickname 'Doubting Thomas' for nothing


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Emily1 said:


> Damaging other peoples property is illegal. Simple.


I agree, but under the law as I have studied it, the law is against injury and death to a cat. There is nothing in law which claims a neuter or spay is an injury. Thats why I would like to read the case because if it was true I would like to see the judges rationale for deeming a neuter an 'injury' I have never seen a precedent for this be set and I would be interested to see it.

Shame it wasn't publicised....

People don't get damaged. They get injured, same goes for animals, hence it doesnt come under 'criminal damage'


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## Emily1 (Apr 28, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> It doesn't matter to me if you're new or if you've been around for years
> People are bound to ask for evidence when claims like that are made. I'm aware one other member asked before me for links/evidence.


I was just a little apprehensive posting as it seems that some people here re rather quick to jump down peoples throats!

I too saw that another member asked before you for links/evidence, However, you were the most recent reply and I couldn't be bothered to quote you both. Sorry if this offended anyone.



dougal22 said:


> Without any evidence to back up what you claim, I'll take what you say 'with a pinch of salt'. My grandmother didn't give me the nickname 'Doubting Thomas' for nothing


I wouldn't expect anything else. You'd be a fool to have undying belief just because a stranger said so.

I just wanted to post to warn people of the possible consequences if you neuter someone else's animal.

I'll try and pick my managers brain about it, but if it wasn't publicised, i'm sure there was a reason for it. Though I'm sure not every event in the whole world gets in the news!!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

It probably wouldnt be in the news if not publicised by the owner or charity. However there would be court records as it would be considered reasonably 'ground breaking' in terms of setting a precedent for that particular area of law.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Ill be honest in saying I had no idea about Microchipping until I got Decker 3 years ago I think 

And I didnt get her chipped at first cause it wasnt until Horris came along and I was getting him neutered that I inquired about chipping.

Chipping per cat cost me 50$

I also would be very missed if someone took my cat in and had them spayed or neutered without my knowledge, its my cat hands off!

Spay cost me per cat 200

Neuter cost me 100$


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Emily1 said:


> It the charity I work for, ANY cat is handed back to its owner once proof of ownership is obtained whether they want to give us money or not. Its their animal. Simple. It would cost us more in legal fees to refuse than an unpaid bill.
> 
> Every stray cat is kept for 2 weeks prior to neutering. Even the pregnant ones, which often means that a cat that could have been neutered when it first comes in, cannot be after the 2 weeks period. Again, law suits are expensive.


a word to the wise, dont publicise this kind of information on a forum like this, definitely dont name the shelter. if you do people will start "using" it as a free cattery to cover their fortnights holiday in benidorm. why pay for a cattery when a local shelter will give two weeks free board and lodgings? sad, but true.

back to the point of your shelter being scared of law suits

i am no lawyer, but have a fair bit of common sense

i am quite sure that any shelter who had cared for a stray cat for two weeks, the owners of the stray then demanded the cat back but refused to reimburse the shelter for their care, then the owners took the shelter to court

do you really think there is a court in the land that would find in favour of the owners?


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Ill be honest in saying I had no idea about Microchipping until I got Decker 3 years ago I think


did you educate yourself at all on cat ownership before getting your cat ? did you read any books or check any websites? or get any of the free leaflets available in vets practices?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Emily1 said:


> It wasn't publicised in any way as far as i'm aware.
> 
> I know I'm new and no one knows me here but you can chose to either believe or disbelieve. does not matter to me either way *shrugs*
> 
> ...


ive never heard anything like this before my friend helped run a local cat rescue(the rescues still going but shes no longer part of it) and i know theyve spayed lots of pregnant cats and im sure still do, i just wonder what charity was it that got sued Emily? so i can tell her.

the law is an absolute ass in this case is all i can say:glare: but thank the lord cases like this must be exceptionally rare...

and at the end of the day if folk risk their cats straying or even if their cat genuinly escapes than that is their fault should they end up in a rescue, and they shouldnt be blaming and sueing rescues who are already strapped for cash and trying to do their best to help cats in need! jeezus some people!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Emily1 said:


> Actually, this does and has happened and the cat owner won. And they were right to win too. The rescue in question had even kept the cat in question for 2 weeks prior to neutering. The owner came forward just one day too late.


I have had some involvement with animal rescue since 1989, still have friends at the "front" and I have to say have never heard of a rescue being sued for spaying/castrating someones cat.

In my experience, most cats taken in if not chipped are NEVER even claimed 

Even those with chip are often not wanted ...I have heard owners say they gave cat away, so not their's anymore, owner not living there now etc ...


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I have had some involvement with animal rescue since 1989, still have friends at the "front" and I have to say have never heard of a rescue being sued for spaying/castrating someones cat.
> 
> In my experience, most cats taken in if not chipped are NEVER even claimed
> 
> Even those with chip are often not wanted ...I have heard owners say they gave cat away, so not their's anymore, owner not living there now etc ...


Yup agree with that it's cause for celebration if a cat owner actually comes forward!!...From everything i've known (its not my direct line of work but i am involved) Cats (and dogs) are kept 7 days, then if no owner comes forward any medical work needed is done. I don't work on the rehoming front so I'm not sure what would happen exactly if an owner were to then come forward....but TBH if the cat isn't a kitten, if it's not microchipped it's very rare for the owners to come forwards, and even then if they do there's not likely to be a case for the charity neutering their animal because there's unlikely going to be a case for it not being neutered. If the animal's been found as a stray with no identification I don't think anyone in their right mind would try to take it to court as the charity has got just as much of a case in saying the animal wasn't being cared for correctly.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

catsmum said:


> did you educate yourself at all on cat ownership before getting your cat ? did you read any books or check any websites? or get any of the free leaflets available in vets practices?


No not at all. It was a crash course in learning.


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