# Manic German Shorthaired Pointer



## Clare&Oscar

Hello all, I'm new to this forum business so please bear with me and I'll apologise in advance for not replying quickly as I don't get time to come on here often.

I have a very hyper GSP and I'm tearing my hair out at the moment. He is 8.5 months old and he won't seem to calm down. We had a GSP for 10 years up until we lost him last year so we have had some experience with the breed but I don't remember it being this hard with him.

Sorry if this post is long but so is the list of problems with Oscar! He pulls on the lead, we have tried treating when he is walking by my side but as soon as the treat has gone he lunges forward again and if there is any distraction (people, dogs, bikes, children, anything really) I have to brace myself as he tries everything in his power to get to it and I can't seem to keep his attention for more than a split second.

He is currently being fed on a dried junior food and someone has suggested that I may need to reduce his protein intake but I'm not sure the best way to do this and still get him the nutrients he needs being a young dog.

I have given up on puppy training classes as it is impossible to hold on to him with so many people and dogs around to jump on or run around. I thought maybe gun dog training would be a good idea but I need something very local as he really does not like going in the car at all. (sometimes sick and he will lay down as flat as possible to avoid being picked up to go in it even when he hears the keys rattle).

There is absolutely no aggression in him but he is just so full on and bouncy when he sees anybody or if anyone comes visiting (which people are avoiding at the moment). Please help.


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## SEVEN_PETS

I would try a headcollar to try and control him on walks. You could use a headcollar whilst training him to heel. A headcollar will give you control, and when you see other people, dogs etc, walk in the opposite direction until the distraction has passed or your dog has calmed down.

I would say keep him on the junior food because he'll need the added nutrients for growth, especially as he is a large dog. I'd say keep him on the food until he is at least a year old.

I would say start dog training classes again, and get them to teach you how to control your dog around distractions. It'll be good practice for walks, and you will find out the best way to control him. Maybe use a headcollar in the classes also.


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## Guest

Hi,
Obviously you need something which will motivate your dog,does he have any favourite toys,rather than using food,maybe a ball and try getting him to focus on you.

What dry food are you feeding ? Some dry foods are not very good and do have a high protein content which can cause hyper behaviour.


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## Colliepoodle

I would definitely stick with training classes, but look around for one that doesn't use a "one size fits all" approach - it could well be that for the first few classes, you need to work on getting your dog's attention on you rather than joining in with what the others are doing, and then gradually work up to joining the class. Ring round a few trainers, have a chat and see which ones sound best to you. Avoid ones who talk about "dominance" and focus on ones who use positive methods.

How much physical exercise does he get? How much do you play with him? How much mental exercise/training do you give him?


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## james1

I came across a GSP the other day who had a head collar and he was uder great control.
Training classes - which ever you decide to go with will only benefit him, the idea behind them is to do it every day. Theres no point in attending them and then not following through with what you have learned.
If you dont attend - you are besically going at this alone .... which if hes causing you trouble now will only get worse.
Try to be consistent in your commands and dont use a variety of words for the same thing ie no, bad dog, off, oi, hey, name, come here. Use the same word for each behaviour you want correcting. But dont forget to praise whenthey are good - personally i dont use food as it doesnt really focus their attention on you, it focusses them on the food - which is not good


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## Franklin

Hi

I haven't had a dog for very long, but he's a gsp x and thought some of the things I've noticed with mine might help....

When I first got him he was having Vitalin puppy food, and although I expected lots of boisterous puppy behaviour I kept thinking there was a bit of a manic edge to it, so after some research went from vitalin (which is 32% protein) to arden grange puppy food (which is 26% protein if I remember rightly), and he has seemed to really calm down. It could be coincidence as a result of him maturing a bit but he just seems easier to manage. I changed his food quite slowly over several weeks but his calming down did seem to coincide with this.

He also pulls like a maniac out on walks some of the time, and most of the time at class. They have recommended we use a gentle leader as a training aid, probably for the next year they said. Not suggesting it specifically for you as I don't know much about dog training myself but maybe its something to look into? Hope that helps.


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## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> I came across a GSP the other day who had a head collar and he was uder great control.
> Training classes - which ever you decide to go with will only benefit him, the idea behind them is to do it every day. Theres no point in attending them and then not following through with what you have learned.
> If you dont attend - you are besically going at this alone .... which if hes causing you trouble now will only get worse.
> Try to be consistent in your commands and dont use a variety of words for the same thing ie no, bad dog, off, oi, hey, name, come here. Use the same word for each behaviour you want correcting. But dont forget to praise whenthey are good - personally i dont use food as it doesnt really focus their attention on you, it focusses them on the food - which is not good


Food is an excellent training aid and motivator for many dogs. Sure, if you wave your hand about with food in it, the dog will focus on the food. The trick is to teach the dog that food, or whatever reward you use, is contingent on focussing on YOU


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## goodvic2

Hi. Sounds as though he has way to much energy!

What is he like if you take him somewhere and allow him off lead? Is he calmer?

Are you planning on neutering him?


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## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> Food is an excellent training aid and motivator for many dogs. Sure, if you wave your hand about with food in it, the dog will focus on the food. The trick is to teach the dog that food, or whatever reward you use, is contingent on focussing on YOU


theres no trick to food use, the dog is only sitting as it can smell food, the dog is only staying because it can smell food, without the food it is likely that when the time is needed for the dog to come - sit or heel.... unless the scent of food is around you they wont do it instead trott of the other way.
The trick is - in dog training to have the dog respect you enough to not need to be given treats or rewards for doing things it is more than capable off doing without them
I dont know why anyone would suppliment their daily food with extra treats if more simpler methods will get the same results. What you end up with is a dog that could potentially walk off with anyone offering it food, a dog that is heavier than its recommended weight and a dog that wont do as you say (for long) unless it knows a treat is coming


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## james1

goodvic2 said:


> Are you planning on neutering him?


neutering wont stop disobedient behaviour - it will simply stop the ability to reproduce


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## Guest

james1 said:


> neutering wont stop disobedient behaviour - it will simply stop the ability to reproduce


Ahh so many people think it is a quick fix to a bahavioural related problem!


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## Vicki

Why did you get a German Shorthaired Pointer? Since they are bred to be bird hunters they are very active and they need a lot of physical exercise. But most of all they need mental exercise. Bird hunting is of course the best activity, but there are other ways to exercise the dog mentally, for example obedience training, tracking or agility. They are also the perfect breed for skijoring.

I also agree with colliepoodle that you should try to find a training class that uses positive methods. I believe that they can give you the help you need. Good luck!


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## Vicki

james1 said:


> theres no trick to food use, the dog is only sitting as it can smell food, the dog is only staying because it can smell food, without the food it is likely that when the time is needed for the dog to come - sit or heel.... unless the scent of food is around you they wont do it instead trott of the other way.
> The trick is - in dog training to have the dog respect you enough to not need to be given treats or rewards for doing things it is more than capable off doing without them
> I dont know why anyone would suppliment their daily food with extra treats if more simpler methods will get the same results. What you end up with is a dog that could potentially walk off with anyone offering it food, a dog that is heavier than its recommended weight and a dog that wont do as you say (for long) unless it knows a treat is coming


You really don't know what you're talking about. First of all, you need to make a distinction between a bribe and a reward. A bribe is when you use the food for example above the dogs head to make it sit. A reward is when you give the dog the food when it is already sitting. If you use treats correctly, i.e as a reward, you will never have any problems with your dog not listening or walking away when you don't have treats.

I know this for a fact, because I have trained several dogs and also competed in obedience classes and I have always used treats as reward (but not as a bribe).


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## goodvic2

james1 said:


> neutering wont stop disobedient behaviour - it will simply stop the ability to reproduce


Neutering calms down male dogs, in my experience. It is not the be all and end all, but it does have an effect.


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## goodvic2

DevilDogz said:


> Ahh so many people think it is a quick fix to a bahavioural related problem!


Very true, it does not cure all, but if can certainly help.


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## james1

Vicki said:


> You really don't know what you're talking about. First of all, you need to make a distinction between a bribe and a reward. A bribe is when you use the food for example above the dogs head to make it sit. A reward is when you give the dog the food when it is already sitting. If you use treats correctly, i.e as a reward, you will never have any problems with your dog not listening or walking away when you don't have treats.
> 
> I know this for a fact, because I have trained several dogs and also competed in obedience classes and I have always used treats as reward (but not as a bribe).


You must be having a laugh right? Treats are used to get dogs to do things or to get them to do things they are already doing yeah but why use them at all!??? If a dog doesnt do as you first say - it doesnt get your "bribe" it doesnt get your "reward". If it does do as you say then its gets the "bribe" it gets the "reward" for being good. 
If you want a dog to come away from another dog do you think it thinks 'right if I go the my owner ill get a juicy reward' or do you think it thinks 'if I go to my owner ill get a juicy reward' bribe/reward = no difference. The way you percieve it is nowhere near what your dog does.
Your splitting hairs over nothing. Treats are the worst way to train a dog FACT. Do you see working dogs given treats or do you see them listening to what the owner wants them to do knowing praise or play will follow as a "reward!". This extends all across the range of working dogs: guide dogs, rescue dogs, prisons, police dogs ..... There is no room for treats end of - bribe or reward pah! I get the distincition but for a dog to simply stay at your heel, sit or come - the simplist commads there are - it gets a treat??? tosh. Theres really no room for you to question me or defend your methods its just plain lazy.


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## Guest

It is whatever works for you and your dog.
If food treats work then what's the issue ?

Both of my dogs have been trained using treats (food)neither are overweight,both have excellent recall and both do as they are asked.Sometimes they are given a reward other times they are not.

I trained by giving treats,however not all the time,when we were confident our dogs understood the command given,they would/wouldn't be rewarded.

Dogs do something because there is something in it for them.

.James I would be interested how do you train your dogs ?


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## clueless

Agree with Sal I train my show dogs with treats I can take 9 of mine out together and they all come back no probs Always have trained with treats for over 25years now and never had a problem


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## james1

I use basic 'your a good boy' principles with hand signnals (I sometimes make my own up) .... the initial stages are on lead and when he knows them they are done off lead.
I have edited my post just incase you want to re-read it. I utterly do not see the point in using treats, im travelling 10 miles out of my way simply because all the classes locally use treats. I attended one where if the dog followed you it got a reward, if it sat by your side it got a reward. I though a big fat no to that, found another and from 14 weeks I havent used treats. Just a matter of patience when he gets it wrong


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## clueless

Treats are the worst way to train a dog FACT


Can I ask about your comment above. Is this you who is stating it is a Fact or have you got professional proof that it is ????


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## james1

clueless said:


> Agree with Sal I train my show dogs with treats I can take 9 of mine out together and they all come back no probs Always have trained with treats for over 25years now and never had a problem


lol I was at a show ring the other day - and they are the worst offenders I have ever seen (I can understand giving a dog a treat when it recalls well - I certainly wouldnt use it every time it did) but these at the show ring were 1/2 way across the circle fumbling through their pockets to get a buscuit out to hold infront of the dogs nose!!? I mean - it doesnt take an expert - I was going to enter but you had to register a month in advance (i realise shows arent performance based) but these pooches were bounding everywhere if they couldnt smell something:001_tt2:


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## SEVEN_PETS

james1 said:


> I use basic 'your a good boy' principles with hand signnals (I sometimes make my own up) .... the initial stages are on lead and when he knows them they are done off lead.
> I have edited my post just incase you want to re-read it. I utterly do not see the point in using treats, im travelling 10 miles out of my way simply because all the classes locally use treats. I attended one where if the dog followed you it got a reward, if it sat by your side it got a reward. I though a big fat no to that, found another and from 14 weeks I havent used treats. Just a matter of patience when he gets it wrong


I'd love to work without treats, but I just don't see how it is possible. When my dog was a pup, he wouldn't have listened to me unless there was something in it for him, example, food. Now, he's getting more independent of food rewards, especially in the house, but I always use food rewards when recalling, it makes it more reliable I think. I couldn't find a dog class that didn't use treats, and I have to travel a far way to go to the one I go to now. Although, saying all that, Ollie will do an agility course without food, just because he loves it, so I suppose it is possible to teach things without food.


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## clueless

james1 said:


> lol I was at a show ring the other day - and they are the worst offenders I have ever seen (I can understand giving a dog a treat when it recalls well - I certainly wouldnt use it every time it did) but these at the show ring were 1/2 way across the circle fumbling through their pockets to get a buscuit out to hold infront of the dogs nose!!? I mean - it doesnt take an expert - I was going to enter but you had to register a month in advance (i realise shows arent performance based) but these pooches were bounding everywhere if they couldnt smell something:001_tt2:


Obviously you have never seen my dogs or myself in the Ring LOL I train with treats then do not need them when dogs trained:001_tt2:


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## james1

clueless said:


> Treats are the worst way to train a dog FACT
> 
> Can I ask about your comment above. Is this you who is stating it is a Fact or have you got professional proof that it is ????


You probably wont take my professional proof as proof but I can give you an example that my sniffer dog was trained without them. I go to see him every 6 months or so and he doesnt use them at all. My boys had yearly hauls in excess of £500k so id say it works well enough


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## SEVEN_PETS

james1 said:


> You probably wont take my professional proof as proof but I can give you an example that my sniffer dog was trained without them. I go to see him every 6 months or so and he doesnt use them at all. My boys had yearly hauls in excess of £500k so id say it works well enough


I think if a dog really wants to work for you, then they'll do it without treats, but I think if the dog is a bit difficult to train, then I think treats are perfectly acceptable to use to get them working for you.


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## james1

clueless said:


> Obviously you have never seen my dogs or myself in the Ring LOL I train with treats then do not need them when dogs trained:001_tt2:


Nope never had the pleasure - id be a terrible judge anyway awards to those without treats alone


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## Guest

Each to there own thats what i say!


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## clueless

james1 said:


> You probably wont take my professional proof as proof but I can give you an example that my sniffer dog was trained without them. I go to see him every 6 months or so and he doesnt use them at all. My boys had yearly hauls in excess of £500k so id say it works well enough


Nope LOL Thats like me saying "All dogs can make the a cup of tea and butter the toast-FACT lol Just because your dog can does not make it a Fact imo:001_tt2:


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## james1

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'd love to work without treats, but I just don't see how it is possible. When my dog was a pup, he wouldn't have listened to me unless there was something in it for him, example, food. Now, he's getting more independent of food rewards, especially in the house, but I always use food rewards when recalling, it makes it more reliable I think. I couldn't find a dog class that didn't use treats, and I have to travel a far way to go to the one I go to now. Although, saying all that, Ollie will do an agility course without food, just because he loves it, so I suppose it is possible to teach things without food.


have you tried making yourself exciting ..... i mean waving your arms above your head and looking like a bit of a loonatic? Saying come, which they should know too also helps when you start to wave less


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## clueless

james1 said:


> Nope never had the pleasure - id be a terrible judge anyway awards to those without treats alone


 Would be a hard decision for ya to place then if all the class had no treats lol


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## james1

clueless said:


> Nope LOL Thats like me saying "All dogs can make the a cup of tea and butter the toast-FACT lol Just because your dog can does not make it a Fact imo:001_tt2:


no - but it makes the idea that you dont need them to train dogs with one. He is a professional and all of the dogs at my dads prison go through him
F A C T


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## clueless

james1 said:


> no - but it makes the idea that you dont need them to train dogs with one. He is a professional and all of the dogs at my dads prison go through him
> F A C T


Haha NEVER--FACT:001_tt2:


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## SEVEN_PETS

james1 said:


> have you tried making yourself exciting ..... i mean waving your arms above your head and looking like a bit of a loonatic? Saying come, which they should know too also helps when you start to wave less


oh yes, and he does come, but I like to give the food as a reward for doing as I say.


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## james1

clueless said:


> Would be a hard decision for ya to place then if all the class had no treats lol


easy ............

awards to the skinny one with non-glasey eyeses :blushing:


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## clueless

james1 said:


> easy ............
> 
> awards to the skinny one with non-glasey eyeses :blushing:


Shucks hard decision then lol:001_tt2:


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## Vicki

james1 said:


> You must be having a laugh right? Treats are used to get dogs to do things or to get them to do things they are already doing yeah but why use them at all!??? If a dog doesnt do as you first say - it doesnt get your "bribe" it doesnt get your "reward". If it does do as you say then its gets the "bribe" it gets the "reward" for being good.
> If you want a dog to come away from another dog do you think it thinks 'right if I go the my owner ill get a juicy reward' or do you think it thinks 'if I go to my owner ill get a juicy reward' bribe/reward = no difference. The way you percieve it is nowhere near what your dog does.
> Your splitting hairs over nothing. Treats are the worst way to train a dog FACT. Do you see working dogs given treats or do you see them listening to what the owner wants them to do knowing praise or play will follow as a "reward!". This extends all across the range of working dogs: guide dogs, rescue dogs, prisons, police dogs ..... There is no room for treats end of - bribe or reward pah! I get the distincition but for a dog to simply stay at your heel, sit or come - the simplist commads there are - it gets a treat??? tosh. Theres really no room for you to question me or defend your methods its just plain lazy.


Now it's obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about 

You have absolutely no clue how to use a reward. It would probably do you good to read a little about learning theories. It's actually a fact that treats are a very good way to train a dog.

Do you really believe that working dogs never gets treats or rewards? I know for a fact that they do. I've been training with a policeman and his dog for a while and he rewards his dog with treats and play just as much as I do. I also have a friend who works as a trainer for guide dogs and assistance dogs and they never use any other method than clicker training, which you might know is based on positive reinforcement and a lot of treats are used.

You really don't come off as a nice person with your last comment and I honestly feel sorry for your dog/dogs :sad:


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## james1

SEVEN_PETS said:


> oh yes, and he does come, but I like to give the food as a reward for doing as I say.


but if he comes - then theres no need to treat him - he doent neeed the treat.  Hmmmm, if he gets too used to this he will come then realise no treat and wont stay for long if you dont present him with something. Try having him sit then after a few seconds mave to head/chest pat. It will make it more of a perfomance - that he has to do something to get 'big boys praise'. Coming is so easy - they shoulnt be treated for it. I dont want to sound like a big head world expert as Finn isnt 100% to come to heel but he does turn from what hes doing 99% to come within a few feet (unless i ask him to do something else alongside)


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## clueless

Vicki said:


> Now it's obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about
> 
> You have absolutely no clue how to use a reward. It would probably do you good to read a little about learning theories. It's actually a fact that treats are a very good way to train a dog.
> 
> Do you really believe that working dogs never gets treats or rewards? I know for a fact that they do. I've been training with a policeman and his dog for a while and he rewards his dog with treats and play just as much as I do. I also have a friend who works as a trainer for guide dogs and assistance dogs and they never use any other method than clicker training, which you might know is based on positive reinforcement and a lot of treats are used.
> 
> You really don't come off as a nice person with your last comment and I honestly feel sorry for your dog/dogs :sad:


Yip agree and you just remembered me about the Drug Sniffing Dogs used by Police Their treat is their ball after the mark a spot Its a treat


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## james1

Vicki said:


> Now it's obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about
> You have absolutely no clue how to use a reward.


I have no interest in how to reward as there is no need for it 


Vicki said:


> It would probably do you good to read a little about learning theories. It's actually a fact that treats are a very good way to train a dog.


Its actually opinion that treats are good to train a dog - there is no medical eveidence that supports it. Fact 


Vicki said:


> Do you really believe that working dogs never gets treats or rewards?


Yes I do. My trainer of working dogs in 30 years of training dogs has never used them and the trainer of my sniffer has only ever had a tennis ball for reward. Fact


Vicki said:


> I know for a fact that they do. I've been training with a policeman and his dog for a while and he rewards his dog with treats and play just as much as I do.


No you dont, the police man is the handler!!! Not the trainer. Working dogs are so expensive as they are sent to training schools, The handler simply uses the best means they know to have them carry out what they are supposed to do - FOR THEM.


Vicki said:


> I also have a friend who works as a trainer for guide dogs and assistance dogs and they never use any other method than clicker training, which you might know is based on positive reinforcement and a lot of treats are used.
> You really don't come off as a nice person with your last comment and I honestly feel sorry for your dog/dogs :sad:


I know guide dog owners - who let them off the leads too? (if you can picture the scenario) - do you know why???? because it makes them more attentive when they come back! There is no supporting evidence that treats are good - especially when better results are seen when not using them.
You can feel sorry for my dogs - its my pleasure that youll never read about them, as you obvioulsy have little interest in things outside of your learning capacity :blushing::blushing: not [email protected]  then dont rubbish my perfectly resaonable post


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## clueless

Its actually opinion that treats are good to train a dog - there is no medical eveidence that supports it. Fact


And its only opinion that they are not FACT LOL


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## james1

clueless said:


> Its actually opinion that treats are good to train a dog - there is no medical eveidence that supports it. Fact
> 
> And its only opinion that they are not FACT LOL


hopes i wasnt the first person to mention a factin fact on here. If I was i think it was the best one of the thread

f A c T :001_tt2:

edit : coool i wasnt


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## Vicki

james1 said:


> I have no interest in how to reward as there is no need for it
> 
> Its actually opinion that treats are good to train a dog - there is no medical eveidence that supports it. Fact
> 
> Yes I do. My trainer of working dogs in 30 years of training dogs has never used them and the trainer of my sniffer has only ever had a tennis ball for reward. Fact
> 
> No you dont, the police man is the handler!!! Not the trainer. Working dogs are so expensive as they are sent to training schools, The handler simply uses the best means they know to have them carry out what they are supposed to do - FOR THEM.
> 
> I know guide dog owners - who let them off the leads too? (if you can picture the scenario) - do you know why???? because it makes them more attentive when they come back! There is no supporting evidence that treats are good - especially when better results are seen when not using them.
> You can feel sorry for my dogs - its my pleasure that youll never read about them, as you obvioulsy have little interest in things outside of your learning capacity :blushing::blushing: not [email protected]  then dont rubbish my perfectly resaonable post


There are a lot of scientific research that show the positive effects of rewards. You can probably read about it in every psychology book there is. But I don't expect you too, since it seems is if you don't want to become a better trainer.

The fact that your trainer in working dogs doesn't use treats or rewards only shows that he's ignorant and unaware of modern methods, not that it's the best way to train a dog.

It might be true that police dogs are sent to training in the UK, but where I live the policeman- or woman sometimes buys dogs as puppies from a breeder and then train it him- or herself to become a police dog (of course they are aware that they might not succeed if they dog might not pass the tests). And sometimes they get a young dog that has already been tested and deemed suitable for policework. But the policeman- or woman always train their dogs themselves (with guidence from police dog trainers, who they meet with occasionally). The police dog also lives in their home as a family dog while not working.

I also know people with guide dogs and they also use treats as reward. In fact, all of the guide dogs are clicker trained at the centre before being placed with their blind owners. I've been asked to be a contact person for those who have guide dogs in this area and help them train their dogs should they have any problem. I didn't have the time to accept the offer, but ther was no mention of a prohibiion against treats.

I'm not saying that it's not possible to teach a dog things without treats, because I know that it is. However, it's not the most effective nor the easiest way. You're welcome to train your dog the way you like (even though I feel sorry for your dog). The reason I'm arguing with you is to prevent you from spreading your nonsense ideas to others.

It seems to me that it is YOU who have very little (none?) interest in things outside your learning capacity :001_rolleyes:


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## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> theres no trick to food use, the dog is only sitting as it can smell food, the dog is only staying because it can smell food, without the food it is likely that when the time is needed for the dog to come - sit or heel.... unless the scent of food is around you they wont do it instead trott of the other way.
> The trick is - in dog training to have the dog respect you enough to not need to be given treats or rewards for doing things it is more than capable off doing without them
> I dont know why anyone would suppliment their daily food with extra treats if more simpler methods will get the same results. What you end up with is a dog that could potentially walk off with anyone offering it food, a dog that is heavier than its recommended weight and a dog that wont do as you say (for long) unless it knows a treat is coming


Wrong.

What you are talking about is bribery, which is a different thing to reward.

Many, many TOP trainers and competitors in many different spheres use treats and toys for reward and certainly do not have overweight dogs that "trot the other way" if they don't have treats in their hands. In fact you aren't allowed in the ring with treats so by your logic, their dogs would refuse to perform at all LOL!

If "simpler methods" got the same results, don't you think they would use them??


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## SEVEN_PETS

I have trained my dog with treats for his whole life, and today I forgot to take any treats with me to the park. But he recalled perfectly without treats, so james1, your comment about dogs going the other way if you don't have treats is wrong. What you need to do (if you use treats for training) is to wean them off them once they have learned the command (which is how the dogs do what the handler says in the ring without treats, because he has been weaned off them).


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## Colliepoodle

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I have trained my dog with treats for his whole life, and today I forgot to take any treats with me to the park. But he recalled perfectly without treats, so james1, your comment about dogs going the other way if you don't have treats is wrong. What you need to do (if you use treats for training) is to wean them off them once they have learned the command (which is how the dogs do what the handler says in the ring without treats, because he has been weaned off them).


What happens mostly is that trainers will use food for teaching new things, and once a behaviour is learnt will swap to toys as a reward - provided of course that the DOG sees a toy as sufficient motivator. If the dog is not toy orientated, then food will stay the main reward.

Once a behaviour is conditioned, then you don't need to treat EVERY time. In fact a variable rate of reinforcement often gets a dog even keener.


----------



## bucksmum

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I have trained my dog with treats for his whole life, and today I forgot to take any treats with me to the park. But he recalled perfectly without treats, so james1, your comment about dogs going the other way if you don't have treats is wrong. What you need to do (if you use treats for training) is to wean them off them once they have learned the command (which is how the dogs do what the handler says in the ring without treats, because he has been weaned off them).


I completely agree with this post.
We always train our pups with treats and gradually drop them as good habits are established.Both my husband and myself work several labradors at a time and never have to use treats to work with the dogs as the good behaviour is now rewarded with praise.Thier recall has to be instant and they are responsive.


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## Nonnie

Many breeds have no desire to work, nor do they respond to praise. They have no need to seek human approval and lack that drive to have a "job".

In these cases treats are a godsend. What works for some, wont always work for another. I trained both mine with treats, although i rarely treat now as the behaviour has been learnt. If they start flagging in certain areas, i will reintroduce treats. If i was to train Oscar using just praise, he's more than likely stick two fingers up at me and carry on doing what ever he finds more rewarding.

I wonder James1, have you trained any breeds other than working ones?


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## noushka05

shouldnt training be pleasant for the dog whats wrong with treats! 
My old GSP was incredibly strong & boistrous but didnt have an ounce of malice, they are a breed with boundless energy & really do need to burn that energy off bikejoring is excellent for this breed all my training with Meg was done with food but she was also very ball focused, i think the main thing is always to use gentle training methods & have loads of patience because they are a very sensitive breed.


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## Colliepoodle

Nonnie said:


> Many breeds have no desire to work, nor do they respond to praise. They have no need to seek human approval and lack that drive to have a "job".
> 
> In these cases treats are a godsend. What works for some, wont always work for another. I trained both mine with treats, although i rarely treat now as the behaviour has been learnt. If they start flagging in certain areas, i will reintroduce treats. If i was to train Oscar using just praise, he's more than likely stick two fingers up at me and carry on doing what ever he finds more rewarding.
> 
> I wonder James1, have you trained any breeds other than working ones?


The point about working breeds is a good one.

Of course a shepherd doesn't spend his time dashing across the field to give his BC a treat when it lies down on command - because he has no need to. The desire to herd is built into a good working BC. So much so that if he isn't allowed a legitimate outlet for this urge, he will herd anything from chickens to children. Therefore the only reward a BC needs is to be allowed to do what he wants most - herd.

Same with gundogs retrieving and any other working breed doing what it was bred to do - more than that, doing what it was bred to WANT to do.

You could probably train a Husky to pull a sled and to keep running without treats. But anyone trying to train it to, say, retrieve had better have a good incentive!

Some dogs are more biddable than others - or rather, they are bred to be co-operative for certain tasks. But dogs do NOT care whether you are pleased with them or not, other than for the fact of what that means to them.


----------



## fun4fido

Clare&Oscar said:


> Hello all, I'm new to this forum business so please bear with me and I'll apologise in advance for not replying quickly as I don't get time to come on here often.
> 
> I have a very hyper GSP and I'm tearing my hair out at the moment. He is 8.5 months old and he won't seem to calm down. We had a GSP for 10 years up until we lost him last year so we have had some experience with the breed but I don't remember it being this hard with him.
> 
> Sorry if this post is long but so is the list of problems with Oscar! He pulls on the lead, we have tried treating when he is walking by my side but as soon as the treat has gone he lunges forward again and if there is any distraction (people, dogs, bikes, children, anything really) I have to brace myself as he tries everything in his power to get to it and I can't seem to keep his attention for more than a split second.
> 
> He is currently being fed on a dried junior food and someone has suggested that I may need to reduce his protein intake but I'm not sure the best way to do this and still get him the nutrients he needs being a young dog.
> 
> I have given up on puppy training classes as it is impossible to hold on to him with so many people and dogs around to jump on or run around. I thought maybe gun dog training would be a good idea but I need something very local as he really does not like going in the car at all. (sometimes sick and he will lay down as flat as possible to avoid being picked up to go in it even when he hears the keys rattle).
> 
> There is absolutely no aggression in him but he is just so full on and bouncy when he sees anybody or if anyone comes visiting (which people are avoiding at the moment). Please help.


Hi,

Before you run for the hills ...

this is perfectly normal behaviour for an 8 months old pointer.

He sounds quite similar in personality to how my Weim was at that age, _*a teenager*_ and in general it's normal for gundogs to have quite a strong social drive.

They key is to be consistent with your training, some days will be better than others, but trying out several different methods will just confuse and frustrate him. So stick with reward based training.

Doing classes would be great because he will over time, learn to focus on you and not be so distracted by other dogs/people etc. So it would be beneficial to do classes. But do make sure the trainer is using reward based training, and not jerk the leash type training.

Gundog training is excellent for getting focus, self control, as well as basic and advanced obedience. But again be careful and take the time to choose the right training school. Unfortunately many gundog training schools apply compulsion training (traditional, punitive), so ask lots of questions about methods used.

Helen Phillips at K9 Multi Sport might be able to recommend a gundog clicker training class for you.

Hope this helps


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## james1

Vicki said:


> There are a lot of scientific research that show the positive effects of rewards. You can probably read about it in every psychology book there is. But I don't expect you too, since it seems is if you don't want to become a better trainer.
> 
> The fact that your trainer in working dogs doesn't use treats or rewards only shows that he's ignorant and unaware of modern methods, not that it's the best way to train a dog.
> 
> It might be true that police dogs are sent to training in the UK, but where I live the policeman- or woman sometimes buys dogs as puppies from a breeder and then train it him- or herself to become a police dog (of course they are aware that they might not succeed if they dog might not pass the tests). And sometimes they get a young dog that has already been tested and deemed suitable for policework. But the policeman- or woman always train their dogs themselves (with guidence from police dog trainers, who they meet with occasionally). The police dog also lives in their home as a family dog while not working.
> 
> I also know people with guide dogs and they also use treats as reward. In fact, all of the guide dogs are clicker trained at the centre before being placed with their blind owners. I've been asked to be a contact person for those who have guide dogs in this area and help them train their dogs should they have any problem. I didn't have the time to accept the offer, but ther was no mention of a prohibiion against treats.
> 
> I'm not saying that it's not possible to teach a dog things without treats, because I know that it is. However, it's not the most effective nor the easiest way. You're welcome to train your dog the way you like (even though I feel sorry for your dog). The reason I'm arguing with you is to prevent you from spreading your nonsense ideas to others.
> 
> It seems to me that it is YOU who have very little (none?) interest in things outside your learning capacity :001_rolleyes:


My whole point is that treat training is lazy - and the effects of it are the worst part. A dog as i have already said ----- needs to respect what you the owner is telling them, if thats from 5ft away or 50ft away. Anybody can train a dog with treats - it takes no brain power or dedication other than supplying the pooch with something that is unecessary for it do do what it is asked.

Have you ever seen a homeless person with a dog? They are hardly ever on leads and they are loyal to them, crossing roads/sleeping/walking beside them. The homeless person doesnt have any access to food so id say the dog has learnt to stay by their side without the use of treats. Your "modern training methods" are sounding distinctly old hat, even ignorant to propper and healthy training.

Your knowledge of how professional orgaisations train their dogs is totally made up. Please dont try and waffle your made up opinions on a thread that people try to glean info from. The dogs are sent to schools and they come back in their various guises - to be used by people who operate in the set conditions it has been trained in. End Of. 

If you think Pavlovs dog is an example of how to train a dog you are wrong. Conditioning a dog to salivate to the sound of a bell is hardly training.
Dogs are not easy full stop, if they were easy they would be able to speak. Training a dog to respond to treat commands AS WE NOW BOTH AGREE is the easiest and lazyest way to become a better??? trainer as you put it. :idea:
That is my exact fear - say you leave your dog in a stay - someone walks up with food - whats the likelyhood of it still being there when you get back. None. You need to sharpen up on your dog control. 
Can you give me an example of how youd train a dog to not be aggressive using treats? Or would you say the simplest way from the outset is to tell it to leave when another dog approaches.... there is no weaning off of treats and there is no expectation that the dog will get a treat for leaving - it is simply following your instruction. The simplest way is to not have lazy methods - that dont do the dog any good in the long run (apart from it being food orientated in anything it does)


----------



## Guest

James,
How would you train an aggressive dog to leave then,we tried this with my bitch with no effect whatsoever....
How would you reinforce the behaviour you want ?

You say treat training is lazy,I beg to differ if done correctly at the appropriate time it is a useful tool.

I am also aware that some gundog trainers use Electric shock collars to train their dogs,surely this isn't the correct way to be training and this is also lazy and a quick fix in my opinion.


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## goodvic2

I see your point james, but most people use treats to train their dogs. I used them initially as encouragement, but I no longer really have to. They do as I say, because they want to and because I am their leader.

Every dog is different and needs different motivation. I don't really see why you are so critical of people who use them?


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## Colliepoodle

James you talk about a sniffer dog being rewarded with a tennis ball. By your logic, that dog will not work unless it knows the handler has the ball.

Treat or toy, the principle remains the same. They are both rewards.

Dogs do NOT care whether you are happy or sad, apart from the consequences for them. Like it or not, however you train, the dog is working either to gain positive things or to avoid negative things.


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## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> Wrong.
> 
> What you are talking about is bribery, which is a different thing to reward.
> 
> Many, many TOP trainers and competitors in many different spheres use treats and toys for reward and certainly do not have overweight dogs that "trot the other way" if they don't have treats in their hands. In fact you aren't allowed in the ring with treats so by your logic, their dogs would refuse to perform at all LOL!
> 
> If "simpler methods" got the same results, don't you think they would use them??


what simpler methods are you talking about - youve lost me here?

I have been to a few events where judging has taken place, treats are allowed in the ring, and if they are not the owner scents their hand before entering. I like how you use the bribery/reward excuse that someone else pointed, its a shocking reason to justify the use of treats (if you cant get a dog to do as you want then use them, but it certainly should be across the board or as an everyday exercise or made out to be the best method since sliced bread, because it is obviously isnt th case) - but if it stops your dog from ignoring you then keep on. 
I find it a dinosaur of a training method. And a reflection of the owners capacity for animal control. I can guarantee you if you didnt use treats the dog would be jumping up at you saying look ive sat, heeled etc etc - now - i want my treat. Though youve probably never had this right


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## SEVEN_PETS

james1 said:


> Can you give me an example of how youd train a dog to not be aggressive using treats? Or would you say the simplest way from the outset is to tell it to leave when another dog approaches.... there is no weaning off of treats and there is no expectation that the dog will get a treat for leaving - it is simply following your instruction. The simplest way is to not have lazy methods - that dont do the dog any good in the long run (apart from it being food orientated in anything it does)


My dog leaves objects, and I don't have to give him treats, because he has learned that leaving the object is good through treat training. If you don't know that you have to wean dogs off treats, then you don't sound very professional. Everyone knows this, no-one expects to use treats for the dog's whole life, it's just to get them started and learning the commands.


----------



## james1

goodvic2 said:


> I see your point james, but most people use treats to train their dogs. I used them initially as encouragement, but I no longer really have to. They do as I say, because they want to and because I am their leader.
> 
> Every dog is different and needs different motivation. I don't really see why you are so critical of people who use them?


Most people do - simply because they have not been tought the correct way to get a dog to listen to you. Im not saying its off limits goodvic, im saying - and im sure youve seen as many as me walking around - that giving your dog a mouthful of munch for doing the simplest task every other minute should be advised agaisnt


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## james1

SEVEN_PETS said:


> My dog leaves objects, and I don't have to give him treats, because he has learned that leaving the object is good through treat training. If you don't know that you have to wean dogs off treats, then you don't sound very professional. Everyone knows this, no-one expects to use treats for the dog's whole life, it's just to get them started and learning the commands.


thats just not the case though - have a good close look around when you go to dog shows/fairs... the amount of old and experienced dogs given treats is unbelievable


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## SEVEN_PETS

james1 said:


> thats just not the case though - have a good close look around when you go to dog shows/fairs... the amount of old and experienced dogs given treats is unbelievable


then I agree, they should have weaned them off before going to shows/fairs etc, but that's the thing with treats, they must be weaned off. Same with clicker training.

I would ask though, what do you see a toy as? A reward?


----------



## james1

sallyanne said:


> James,
> How would you train an aggressive dog to leave then,we tried this with my bitch with no effect whatsoever....
> How would you reinforce the behaviour you want ?
> 
> You say treat training is lazy,I beg to differ if done correctly at the appropriate time it is a useful tool.
> 
> I am also aware that some gundog trainers use Electric shock collars to train their dogs,surely this isn't the correct way to be training and this is also lazy and a quick fix in my opinion.


Its a useful - lazy tool, it takes just as much time to get a dog to do the same commands without treats .... the only difference is in the presentation of the owner in their command. People have trouble with dogs simply because they are not sharp enough to give it the command it need effectively. Treat training is the last resort to get a dog to do as you say - stemming from overall lack of control and that old faithful (winalot)

I have no clue how id train an aggressive dog to be non aggressive.... theres a few in our class, and the owners do little to take the aggression out of them, even when they are being good theres little reinforcement. You can tell when a dog is about to act on instict (run, bite whatever) but the command is not issued before the act it is dished out afterwards giving attention to the act instead of correct it before it happens - then reinforcing. :smilewinkgrin:


----------



## james1

SEVEN_PETS said:


> then I agree, they should have weaned them off before going to shows/fairs etc, but that's the thing with treats, they must be weaned off. Same with clicker training.
> 
> I would ask though, what do you see a toy as? A reward?


glad you see what I mean, treats are foodstuffs - they are regularly used and the owner finds them the best way to get them doing what they want so instead of the step down to no treats they will still be getting them once, twice however many times per week/day.

Tennis balls are entirely different they are usually given after a good hours worth of training (minimum) and they have few side effects other than getting an energetic dog. Its relatively simple to use distraction techniques to not have them chase every ball in the park ...


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## Guest

Well for me I will continue to be lazy and train using treats.

I have used treats with both of my dogs and are currently using them with my bitch along with a toy,when another dog is approaching,so she assiociates nice things with other dogs,she can be aggressive after been attacked several times.

In your opinion it may be lazy,in my opinion it works and gets results so we don't have a problem using them.


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> Its a useful - lazy tool, it takes just as much time to get a dog to do the same commands without treats .... the only difference is in the presentation of the owner in their command. People have trouble with dogs simply because they are not sharp enough to give it the command it need effectively. Treat training is the last resort to get a dog to do as you say - stemming from overall lack of control and that old faithful (winalot)
> 
> I have no clue how id train an aggressive dog to be non aggressive.... theres a few in our class, and the owners do little to take the aggression out of them, even when they are being good theres little reinforcement. You can tell when a dog is about to act on instict (run, bite whatever) but the command is not issued before the act it is dished out afterwards giving attention to the act instead of correct it before it happens - then reinforcing. :smilewinkgrin:


No,i don't think you're seeing it as other people are.Treat traing is not a last resort. An 9 week old pup is not going to come to recall out of respect for you ,they need to be encouraged.Treats are then phased out and you have a dog that developed a pattern of good habits which you can then re enforce because by this time the dog has learn to respect you.

Maybe having ten dogs,labradors which are easy and terriers,not so easy, trained by initially using treats is not your way but it works for us.

Can i ask James1 how would you teach a puppy recall at 8 weeks without treats,just curious,and have a houseful of gundog friends sat here that would love to know.


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> James you talk about a sniffer dog being rewarded with a tennis ball. By your logic, that dog will not work unless it knows the handler has the ball.
> 
> Treat or toy, the principle remains the same. They are both rewards.
> 
> Dogs do NOT care whether you are happy or sad, apart from the consequences for them. Like it or not, however you train, the dog is working either to gain positive things or to avoid negative things.


You dont understand what im saying, up until now ive not mentioned a tennis ball as a regualr training method - they are used yes - and they are a good alternative to food. Treats as a reward are entirely different as a tool as regards application and method.
The idea/practice with a treat, is for them to be issued after each good action or possibly set of actions. Either way a treat gets issued relatively quickly. With a tennis ball, after a good hours worth of training the dog is either that focussed or that tired that a tennis ball isnt issued immediately. Instead the dog will have time to relax and the tennis ball is used as play later, as a break from training


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## james1

sallyanne said:


> Well for me I will continue to be lazy and train using treats.
> 
> I have used treats with both of my dogs and are currently using them with my bitch along with a toy,when another dog is approaching,so she assiociates nice things with other dogs,she can be aggressive after been attacked several times.
> 
> In your opinion it may be lazy,in my opinion it works and gets results so we don't have a problem using them.


have you tried making her look at you unreservedly when another approaches - using a treat would be the biggest attention grabber id say, however, then not issuing it? Instead praising and walking once the danger has passed? Alternate with treat praise gradually reducing?


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## majortom

Vicki said:


> Now it's obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about
> 
> You have absolutely no clue how to use a reward. It would probably do you good to read a little about learning theories. It's actually a fact that treats are a very good way to train a dog.
> 
> You really don't come off as a nice person with your last comment and I honestly feel sorry for your dog/dogs :sad:


i did training with a ex policeman years ago with my setter
he was all for treats and praise
he was a brilliant guy and had waiting lists for his classes
tho he rolled his eyes at my setter first night,lol
don,t know anyone who does not train with treats
and as you say clicker training is all about treats


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> No,i don't think you're seeing it as other people are.Treat traing is not a last resort. An 9 week old pup is not going to come to recall out of respect for you ,they need to be encouraged.Treats are then phased out and you have a dog that developed a pattern of good habits which you can then re enforce because by this time the dog has learn to respect you.
> 
> Maybe having ten dogs,labradors which are easy and terriers,not so easy, trained by initially using treats is not your way but it works for us.
> 
> Can i ask James1 how would you teach a puppy recall at 8 weeks without treats,just curious,and have a houseful of gundog friends sat here that would love to know.


with mine i just used come come come .... (chirpped) At this age - you probably know they are as much in fear of you as are interested... big strokes at this age isnt the way forward - they think 'what the chuff did i do so well - and whys this limby oaf putting their hands all over me'. So long as they come and explore you come and sit or walk around you, you are getting a positive response..... squeeky toys are good though as I say, ive had no problems at all in getting his attention (with toys you must be ready for them to progress to a retrieve which you know). 
He probably thinks im going to juggle one arm for him sometimes 

remember smiles and good bois when they do


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## james1

majortom said:


> i did training with a ex policeman years ago with my setter
> he was all for treats and praise
> he was a brilliant guy and had waiting lists for his classes
> tho he rolled his eyes at my setter first night,lol
> don,t know anyone who does not train with treats
> and as you say clicker training is all about treats


Youll never find a police man in a training accademy, if you do it is because they have retired to get the finer things in life. I expect he was a handler that decided to start training. They know their stuff though for sure


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> have you tried making her look at you unreservedly when another approaches - using a treat would be the biggest attention grabber id say, however, then not issuing it? Instead praising and walking once the danger has passed? Alternate with treat praise gradually reducing?


This is what we are doing,you would have absolutely no chance of keeping her attention without a food treat or ball,we use the "watch me" command,we do reward praise,sometimes just praise,other times give her,her ball to carry 

It is working quite well,however we do get regular set backs which is very frustrating....


----------



## Nonnie

James, you never answered my question.


----------



## majortom

james1 said:


> Youll never find a police man in a training accademy, if you do it is because they have retired to get the finer things in life. I expect he was a handler that decided to start training. They know their stuff though for sure


he was a ex police dog trainer
who had retired ,and took obedience classes at a local night school 
for adults.
a brilliant trainer, and had the patience of a saint
brilliant with the dogs
never found another trainer as good


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> with mine i just used come come come .... (chirpped) At this age - you probably know they are as much in fear of you as are interested... big strokes at this age isnt the way forward - they think 'what the chuff did i do so well - and whys this limby oaf putting their hands all over me'. So long as they come and explore you come and sit or walk around you, you are getting a positive response..... squeeky toys are good though as I say, ive had no problems at all in getting his attention (with toys you must be ready for them to progress to a retrieve which you know).
> He probably thinks im going to juggle one arm for him sometimes
> 
> remember smiles and good bois when they do


Firstly,i have had many terrier pups and i can assure you they do not fear you and half the time they are not interested in you either.
I strongly disagree with stroking not 'being the way forward'.Hand contact especially to the head area should be a pleasure to the dog,essential for showing,working and retreiving.
You obviously don't train your dogs as gundogs or you wuld understand that a squeaky toy is never used as this can encourage hard mouth for retrieving.
And lastly i must congratulate you on getting a dog to recall by smiling at it,that's something i've never managed.:wink5:


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> what simpler methods are you talking about - youve lost me here?
> 
> I have been to a few events where judging has taken place, treats are allowed in the ring, and if they are not the owner scents their hand before entering. I like how you use the bribery/reward excuse that someone else pointed, its a shocking reason to justify the use of treats (if you cant get a dog to do as you want then use them, but it certainly should be across the board or as an everyday exercise or made out to be the best method since sliced bread, because it is obviously isnt th case) - but if it stops your dog from ignoring you then keep on.
> I find it a dinosaur of a training method. And a reflection of the owners capacity for animal control. I can guarantee you if you didnt use treats the dog would be jumping up at you saying look ive sat, heeled etc etc - now - i want my treat. Though youve probably never had this right


You said


> I dont know why anyone would suppliment their daily food with extra treats if more simpler methods will get the same results.


What simpler methods did YOU mean?


----------



## Colliepoodle

So James, you would say that Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson et al would all count as "lazy trainers" because they advocate positive, clicker/treat based training?

Do you think that you could get results like Mary Ray (to name just one trainer who does consistently well) does in agility/obedience/HTM without "resorting" to treats?

If you truly think that dogs do ANYTHING purely out of respect and "willingness to please" I'm afraid it is you who is the dinosaur. Like it or not, according to the most up-to-date research on how dogs learn, they just don't.


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> Firstly,i have had many terrier pups and i can assure you they do not fear you and half the time they are not interested in you either.
> I strongly disagree with stroking not 'being the way forward'.Hand contact especially to the head area should be a pleasure to the dog,essential for showing,working and retreiving.
> You obviously don't train your dogs as gundogs or you wuld understand that a squeaky toy is never used as this can encourage hard mouth for retrieving.
> And lastly i must congratulate you on getting a dog to recall by smiling at it,that's something i've never managed.:wink5:


well firstly: I never said use a squeeky for for retrieve
2) i said it was an attention getter to aid recall
3) it wont lead to a hard mouth as much as the next teething ring
4) 8 weeks of age is far to young to be head patting
5) you never overpet gundogs
6) if you wanted a reply from a gundog trainer - why ask me what to do?
7) if youve never had a dog come through smiling at their level - try it - then report in


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## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> So James, you would say that Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson et al would all count as "lazy trainers" because they advocate positive, clicker/treat based training?
> 
> Do you think that you could get results like Mary Ray (to name just one trainer who does consistently well) does in agility/obedience/HTM without "resorting" to treats?
> 
> If you truly think that dogs do ANYTHING purely out of respect and "willingness to please" I'm afraid it is you who is the dinosaur. Like it or not, according to the most up-to-date research on how dogs learn, they just don't.


People are renound because they have honed their skill - it doesnt make them the bible as far as training. It simply means they have become the best in what they do. People have said it on here - treat training is the easiest way to get a dog to do something......... I am not questioning that.
I am saying that it is a lazy and very easy way yes!. 
There is no widespread need for it as is now seen in almost every training centre though - it is simply a fact that a lot of trainers employ it as they see success. And owner like you like it because there dog does what is asked. The problem is - that people do not attempt to train without treats. I am certain there are many agility dogs that arent reliant on treats to go over/round obstacles. 
I have just been at a show today and my pup (we were on grass and never do agility as hes to young) was performing very well with simple up commands and hand gestures, he finnished the short course quicker that older dogs with no errors either.
Treat training is the dinosaur here - is the oldest and most relaible way to get a dogs attention


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> well firstly: I never said use a squeeky for for retrieve
> 2) i said it was an attention getter to aid recall
> 3) it wont lead to a hard mouth as much as the next teething ring
> 4) 8 weeks of age is far to young to be head patting
> 5) you never overpet gundogs
> 6) if you wanted a reply from a gundog trainer - why ask me what to do?
> 7) if youve never had a dog come through smiling at their level - try it - then report in


Ok james,
a teething ring doesn't sqeak, a sqeaking toy is an absolute no no to training gundogs.
The younger the better for ANY kind of hand contact with a dog.
I didn't want a reply from a gundog trainer,funnily enough i'm married to a man who has made up 5 field trial champions so he kind of knows a thing or two.I was explaining why treats are so useful in traing a PUP.
I have competed trial level for many years and have made up a champion myself ,and not through just smiling.


----------



## bucksmum

bucksmum said:


> Ok james,
> a teething ring doesn't sqeak, a sqeaking toy is an absolute no no to training gundogs.
> The younger the better for ANY kind of hand contact with a dog.
> I didn't want a reply from a gundog trainer,funnily enough i'm married to a man who has made up 5 field trial champions so he kind of knows a thing or two.I was explaining why treats are so useful in traing a PUP.
> I have competed trial level for many years and have made up a champion myself ,and not through just smiling.


OMG James i've just realised that you thought i was asking you for advice,it was a tongue in cheek remark as these gundog people are top competing dog handlers and i'm sorry to be rude but they think you are talking complete b*******s.


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> You said
> 
> What simpler methods did YOU mean?


I think you will find that i have answered this throughout the thread - people use treats as it is a quick easy fix to training. My simpler methods involve engaging the dog the instant it does(nt) do what you want it to do, whether that is a check on the lead if straying from heel, whether it means jumping about waving your arms for recall or putting your hand out for it to wait. If hand gestures arent a simple way to get a doing under control I dont know what is.


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> People are renound because they have honed their skill - it doesnt make them the bible as far as training. It simply means they have become the best in what they do. People have said it on here - treat training is the easiest way to get a dog to do something......... I am not questioning that.
> I am saying that it is a lazy and very easy way yes!.
> There is no widespread need for it as is now seen in almost every training centre though - it is simply a fact that a lot of trainers employ it as they see success. And owner like you like it because there dog does what is asked. The problem is - that people do not attempt to train without treats. I am certain there are many agility dogs that arent reliant on treats to go over/round obstacles.
> I have just been at a show today and my pup (we were on grass and never do agility as hes to young) was performing very well with simple up commands and hand gestures, he finnished the short course quicker that older dogs with no errors either.
> Treat training is the dinosaur here - is the oldest and most relaible way to get a dogs attention


If treat training IS the easiest way of training, I don't quite get why anyone wouldn't use the easiest way, when it gets better results.

Top trainers and handlers use whatever method works best, for obvious reasons.

I don't get why you consider the simplest and most effective method "lazy"


----------



## Nonnie

*sigh*

Ignored again.


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> I think you will find that i have answered this throughout the thread - people use treats as it is a quick easy fix to training. My simpler methods involve engaging the dog the instant it does(nt) do what you want it to do, whether that is a check on the lead if straying from heel, whether it means jumping about waving your arms for recall or putting your hand out for it to wait. If hand gestures arent a simple way to get a doing under control I dont know what is.


If you are checking the lead when the dog strays from heel, you are using aversion. You are therefore relying on the dog AVOIDING something happening, just as a treat trainer relies on the dog working FOR something.

A hand gesture means absolutely nothing to a dog unless it has been trained to understand WHAT you expect when you make the hand gesture LOL!


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> Ok james,
> a teething ring doesn't sqeak, a sqeaking toy is an absolute no no to training gundogs.
> The younger the better for ANY kind of hand contact with a dog.
> I didn't want a reply from a gundog trainer,funnily enough i'm married to a man who has made up 5 field trial champions so he kind of knows a thing or two.I was explaining why treats are so useful in traing a PUP.
> I have competed trial level for many years and have made up a champion myself ,and not through just smiling.


LOL but you have actually said nothing on why treats are good for a pup. If giving them a piece of chicken at 8 weeks to aid recall is a good excuse for treat training then your 5 odd champions have succeeded without the use of treats. !

I still cant belive youd head stoke an 8 week old pup especially a potential gundog pup - come to think about it, all the treat training in the world wont make a dog accept a gun so I think your not talking any sense at all :blushing:


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> I think you will find that i have answered this throughout the thread - people use treats as it is a quick easy fix to training. My simpler methods involve engaging the dog the instant it does(nt) do what you want it to do, whether that is a check on the lead if straying from heel, whether it means jumping about waving your arms for recall or putting your hand out for it to wait. If hand gestures arent a simple way to get a doing under control I dont know what is.


LOL,if only training was that simple! :smilewinkgrin:

I know folks that have jumped up and down,infact done a war dance to get the dog to recall,dog looks at them like they have come out of the nut house and carries on going about it's own business.Why ? Because the scents etc it has picked up are a damn sight more interesting than it's owner.

Training to me is about what you require the dog to do,the dogs understanding of the command given, and what actually motivates the dog,whether that be food, toys etc....

My dog who has excellent recall,ran off after a fox a few weeks back,no amount of shouting,calling him,even food would have stopped him in his tracks that night, any suggestions ?


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> If you are checking the lead when the dog strays from heel, you are using aversion. You are therefore relying on the dog AVOIDING something happening, just as a treat trainer relies on the dog working FOR something.
> 
> A hand gesture means absolutely nothing to a dog unless it has been trained to understand WHAT you expect when you make the hand gesture LOL!


sooooooooooooooooooo give it a treat and make it do as you say. You dont need to!!!


----------



## bucksmum

Your dogs are obviously not whistle trained either James,i think i'd be laughed(or thrown off ) the shoot if i started jumping in the air waving my arms whilst squeaking a toy.You are giving us all a good laugh tonight.


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> If treat training IS the easiest way of training, I don't quite get why anyone wouldn't use the easiest way, when it gets better results.
> 
> Top trainers and handlers use whatever method works best, for obvious reasons.
> 
> I don't get why you consider the simplest and most effective method "lazy"


Because - I give up.
for the last time....
you do not need treats to get a dog to do what you want.
there. 
said it.
it is simply - easy therefore lazy and far too accepted as the norm.
When there is nooo oo ooo ooooo need for it


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> Because - I give up.
> for the last time....
> you do not need treats to get a dog to do what you want.
> there.
> said it.
> it is simply - easy therefore lazy and far too accepted as the norm.
> When there is nooo oo ooo ooooo need for it


Have you ever trained a non working breed?


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> LOL but you have actually said nothing on why treats are good for a pup. If giving them a piece of chicken at 8 weeks to aid recall is a good excuse for treat training then your 5 odd champions have succeeded without the use of treats. !
> 
> I still cant belive youd head stoke an 8 week old pup especially a potential gundog pup - come to think about it, all the treat training in the world wont make a dog accept a gun so I think your not talking any sense at all :blushing:


Our six champions have all been treat trained as pups and then as incentives during summer polish ups.

Believe it or not a gundog needs to see you hands as friends so the earlier they have regular contact the better.

Shooting over a young dog CAN be done with treats but obviously has to be done over a period of time and over a gradual distance.We have never had a gunshy dog due to careful introduction and breeding.

Can i ask you please James do you work or trial your dogs?


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> Your dogs are obviously not whistle trained either James,i think i'd be laughed(or thrown off ) the shoot if i started jumping in the air waving my arms whilst squeaking a toy.You are giving us all a good laugh tonight.


I have a sniffer dog and a 6 month old pup - no they are not whistle trained.

This is now far from the topic of conversation - which was that getting a dog to do something you have to give it food. There is no need to give it food - If you want to then go ahead. But it is really not necessary at all. The fact of the matter is that food based training is a lazy way to train - it doesnt let you understand your dog or represent any skill.
Its a good laugh allright - listening to a lot of owners chirp on about needless methods because they cant control their dogs any other way. Relying on basic substance training of a dog and training thinking their clever adults. 
The best for your dogs * because you could care less about them :blush2:


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> Because - I give up.
> for the last time....
> you do not need treats to get a dog to do what you want.
> there.
> said it.
> it is simply - easy therefore lazy and far too accepted as the norm.
> When there is nooo oo ooo ooooo need for it


You aren't making sense.

OK.

Treat/reward based training - easy, simple and gets far better results.

Non-reward based training - more difficult/time consuming and DOESN'T get such good results.

Out of interest, how would you, for instance, teach a dog to "sit" on command?


----------



## Vicki

james1 said:


> My whole point is that treat training is lazy - and the effects of it are the worst part. A dog as i have already said ----- needs to respect what you the owner is telling them, if thats from 5ft away or 50ft away. Anybody can train a dog with treats - it takes no brain power or dedication other than supplying the pooch with something that is unecessary for it do do what it is asked.
> 
> Have you ever seen a homeless person with a dog? They are hardly ever on leads and they are loyal to them, crossing roads/sleeping/walking beside them. The homeless person doesnt have any access to food so id say the dog has learnt to stay by their side without the use of treats. Your "modern training methods" are sounding distinctly old hat, even ignorant to propper and healthy training.
> 
> Your knowledge of how professional orgaisations train their dogs is totally made up. Please dont try and waffle your made up opinions on a thread that people try to glean info from. The dogs are sent to schools and they come back in their various guises - to be used by people who operate in the set conditions it has been trained in. End Of.
> 
> If you think Pavlovs dog is an example of how to train a dog you are wrong. Conditioning a dog to salivate to the sound of a bell is hardly training.
> Dogs are not easy full stop, if they were easy they would be able to speak. Training a dog to respond to treat commands AS WE NOW BOTH AGREE is the easiest and lazyest way to become a better??? trainer as you put it. :idea:
> That is my exact fear - say you leave your dog in a stay - someone walks up with food - whats the likelyhood of it still being there when you get back. None. You need to sharpen up on your dog control.
> Can you give me an example of how youd train a dog to not be aggressive using treats? Or would you say the simplest way from the outset is to tell it to leave when another dog approaches.... there is no weaning off of treats and there is no expectation that the dog will get a treat for leaving - it is simply following your instruction. The simplest way is to not have lazy methods - that dont do the dog any good in the long run (apart from it being food orientated in anything it does)


Calling me a liar is really offensive  You know nothing about the way police dogs, guide dogs and assistance dogs are trained where I live. I said that it might be the true that dogs are sent away to be trained in the UK (i know nothing about that), but here they're not. So don't call me a liar again 

When I train a dog I only care about the result. I want a dog that does what I ask of it _and_ does it quickly, happily and willingly. As I mentioned earlier I compete in obedience and I want results (my goal is to compete in the national championship). To achieve this I choose the method that'll take me there as quick as possible with the best result as possible.

So what if anyone can train a dog with treats? I see now that the point you're trying to make is that you are a better trainer than the rest of us (but I honestly doubt that you are). I don't want to bother with a method that takes longer and is more difficult than other, more modern methods when the result is the same or better just to be admired by others (however, I think it's only in your imagination that you're such a good trainer who others admire). Personally, I think it's just stupid not to choose the quickest, best and most effective way, but that is entirely up to you.

The way I use treats as a reward is that there are conditions that the dog needs to fullfill before he can get the treat. When I trained my dog to stay I taught him that the only way he can get the treat is by staying down. I have taught him to lie down with his nose pressed to the ground and he stays that way even if I throw treats and toys around him or even at him. Not until he gets his OK-command will he get up. I would never leave my dog anywhere where people can walk up to him without me noticing, because I don't want him to be hurt or stolen, so your little scenario is'nt likely to happen. But I'm sure that he wouldn't walk away with a stranger willingly, even if they have treats.

Yes, I can give you an example of how to train an aggressive dog. My dog was three years old when I got him a yeoar ago and he was very aggressive towards other dogs. He would lunge at them while barking and growling, even if they were a long way away. He doesn't do that anymore, because I have trained him not to by using rewards. Whenever we'd see a dog on our walks I'd call his name and give him a treat or his ball (in the beginning I mostly used the ball, but now I mostly use treats). If he'd lunge at the dog after he'd got his reward I'd just ignore it. After a while (not very long) he started to turn his head towards me as soon as he saw another dog which, of course, I rewarded with the ball or a treat.

After a while he didn't get his treat right away, but since he expected a treat he'd come to my side to beg for it. Then I gave it to him. Gradually he had to walk by my side longer and longer before getting his reward. I've never scolded him in any way when he's lunged at another dog; I've only used positive reinforcement when he did right. Now he walks off the leash by my side with complete focus on me while passing other dogs, so I'd say it was a very successful way to train him.


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> I have a sniffer dog and a 6 month old pup - no they are not whistle trained.
> 
> This is now far from the topic of conversation - which was that getting a dog to do something you have to give it food. There is no need to give it food - If you want to then go ahead. But it is really not necessary at all. The fact of the matter is that food based training is a lazy way to train - it doesnt let you understand your dog or represent any skill.
> Its a good laugh allright - listening to a lot of owners chirp on about needless methods because they cant control their dogs any other way. Relying on basic substance training of a dog and training thinking their clever adults.
> The best for your dogs * because you could care less about them :blush2:


A sniffer dog and a six month old pup!!!!!!!!!!!

And you are telling me how to train a gundog!!!!


----------



## Colliepoodle

Vicki said:


> Calling me a liar is really offensive  You know nothing about the way police dogs, guide dogs and assistance dogs are trained where I live. I said that it might be the true that dogs are sent away to be trained in the UK (i know nothing about that), but here they're not. So don't call me a liar again
> 
> When I train a dog I only care about the result. I want a dog that does what I ask of it _and_ does it quickly, happily and willingly. As I mentioned earlier I compete in obedience and I want results (my goal is to compete in the national championship). To achieve this I choose the method that'll take me there as quick as possible with the best result as possible.
> 
> So what if anyone can train a dog with treats? I see now that the point you're trying to make is that you are a better trainer than the rest of us (but I honestly doubt that you are). I don't want to bother with a method that takes longer and is more difficult than other, more modern methods when the result is the same or better just to be admired by others (however, I think it's only in your imagination that you're such a good trainer who others admire). Personally, I think it's just stupid not to choose the quickest, best and most effective way, but that is entirely up to you.
> 
> The way I use treats as a reward is that there are conditions that the dog needs to fullfill before he can get the treat. When I trained my dog to stay I taught him that the only way he can get the treat is by staying down. I have taught him to lie down with his nose pressed to the ground and he stays that way even if I throw treats and toys around him or even at him. Not until he gets his OK-command will he get up. I would never leave my dog anywhere where people can walk up to him without me noticing, because I don't want him to be hurt or stolen, so your little scenario is'nt likely to happen. But I'm sure that he wouldn't walk away with a stranger willingly, even if they have treats.
> 
> Yes, I can give you an example of how to train an aggressive dog. My dog was three years old when I got him a yeoar ago and he was very aggressive towards other dogs. He would lunge at them while barking and growling, even if they were a long way away. He doesn't do that anymore, because I have trained him not to by using rewards. Whenever we'd see a dog on our walks I'd call his name and give him a treat or his ball (in the beginning I mostly used the ball, but now I mostly use treats). If he'd lunge at the dog after he'd got his reward I'd just ignore it. After a while (not very long) he started to turn his head towards me as soon as he saw another dog which, of course, I rewarded with the ball or a treat.
> 
> After a while he didn't get his treat right away, but since he expected a treat he'd come to my side to beg for it. Then I gave it to him. Gradually he had to walk by my side longer and longer before getting his reward. I've never scolded him in any way when he's lunged at another dog; I've only used positive reinforcement when he did right. Now he walks off the leash by my side with complete focus on me while passing other dogs, so I'd say it was a very successful way to train him.


Good post.

I'm starting to compete in obedience too and EVERYONE I know uses reward-based training because the dogs love it - whether their reward is treat or toy - you get better and faster responses and the dog sees the handler as a source of all things GOOD.


----------



## Nonnie

Im guessing James has never trained a non working breed. Never dealt with a dog that couldnt give a toss about having a job or pleasing its owner.


----------



## james1

sallyanne said:


> LOL,if only training was that simple! :smilewinkgrin:
> 
> I know folks that have jumped up and down,infact done a war dance to get the dog to recall,dog looks at them like they have come out of the nut house and carries on going about it's own business.Why ? Because the scents etc it has picked up are a damn sight more interesting than it's owner.
> 
> Training to me is about what you require the dog to do,the dogs understanding of the command given, and what actually motivates the dog,whether that be food, toys etc....
> 
> My dog who has excellent recall,ran off after a fox a few weeks back,no amount of shouting,calling him,even food would have stopped him in his tracks that night, any suggestions ?


ive used liver treats on first recall though this didnt do much. I dont use any treats or toys in training and he does as i ask 99% of the time .... infact if hes not looking at me then there is something amiss. I firmly believe that some people should have dogs, simply because they cant control it, if you cant control it with your voice, hands, whistle then you should resort to cheap trickery - which is what treat training it at the end of the day.

Tell me if im wrong - my dedicated fingers await


----------



## bucksmum

Nonnie said:


> Im guessing James has never trained a non working breed. Never dealt with a dog that couldnt give a toss about having a job or pleasing its owner.


I agree Noonie,sounds like he's not trained much at all and i would guess these are his first couple of dogs.
Lots to learn me thinks .


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> You aren't making sense.
> 
> OK.
> 
> Treat/reward based training - easy, simple and gets far better results.
> 
> Non-reward based training - more difficult/time consuming and DOESN'T get such good results.
> 
> Out of interest, how would you, for instance, teach a dog to "sit" on command?


if you want to come to my house ill have your dog sat in 3 seconds


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> I have a sniffer dog and a 6 month old pup - no they are not whistle trained.
> 
> This is now far from the topic of conversation - which was that getting a dog to do something you have to give it food. There is no need to give it food - If you want to then go ahead. But it is really not necessary at all. The fact of the matter is that food based training is a lazy way to train - it doesnt let you understand your dog or represent any skill.
> Its a good laugh allright - listening to a lot of owners chirp on about needless methods because they cant control their dogs any other way. Relying on basic substance training of a dog and training thinking their clever adults.
> The best for your dogs * because you could care less about them :blush2:


There must be plenty of us that are lazy and couldn't care less about our dogs and think we are clever then 

I find this post offensive,

I would love to see you handle my bitch, and deal with her aggression towards other dogs....
I would love to see your recall skills whilst my boy is chasing a fox,

To be honest I don't really think you understand positive training in the slighest.


----------



## james1

Vicki said:


> Calling me a liar is really offensive  You know nothing about the way police dogs, guide dogs and assistance dogs are trained where I live. I said that it might be the true that dogs are sent away to be trained in the UK (i know nothing about that), but here they're not. So don't call me a liar again


Im not going to read all of your post as you talk rubbish ...... I didnt call you a liar I said you dont know what your talking about. You are just very quick to make assumptions and take everything quite personally. Probably because you give your dog food everytime it looks at you.

Prison/police dogs are sent to specialist dog trainers like it or not. A handler is not a trainer though yes they will have been trained to handle the dog. There is a huge difference.


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> ive used liver treats on first recall though this didnt do much. I dont use any treats or toys in training and he does as i ask 99% of the time .... infact if hes not looking at me then there is something amiss. I firmly believe that some people should have dogs, simply because they cant control it, if you cant control it with your voice, hands, whistle then you should resort to cheap trickery - which is what treat training it at the end of the day.
> 
> Tell me if im wrong - my dedicated fingers await


All dogs work for what's in it for them. Treats and toys AREN'T always necessary, granted - if a dog has a very high pack drive, for instance, then praise and attention for recalling can be enough. As said before, some breeds are bred to be more co-operative and biddable than others.

It is pointless calling treats "trickery". Using treats as a reward for a foodie dog is no more trickery than giving a leash-check when it strays from heel position - but it's a hell of a lot kinder.


----------



## Nonnie

Testing, testing..


----------



## bucksmum

sallyanne said:


> There must be plenty of us that are lazy and couldn't care less about our dogs and think we are clever then
> 
> I find this post offensive,
> 
> I would love to see you handle my bitch, and deal with her aggression towards other dogs....
> I would love to see your recall skills whilst my boy is chasing a fox,
> 
> To be honest I don't really think you understand positive training in the slighest.


Good idea , i'd like to see James working 6 dogs at a time as a team under very tempting circumstances without a lead.
I'd like to see James train his dog to the gun(as he seems to thimk i'm doing it wrong).
I'd like to see James walking my pack of terriers trying to control them with a toy.


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> if you want to come to my house ill have your dog sat in 3 seconds


You would find she sat in far, far less than three seconds. But I'm asking exactly how YOU personally would teach "sit" to a dog that doesn't have a clue.


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> Good post.
> 
> I'm starting to compete in obedience too and EVERYONE I know uses reward-based training because the dogs love it - whether their reward is treat or toy - you get better and faster responses and the dog sees the handler as a source of all things GOOD.


lol thats funny.

They would love it,:idea: they are getting play and they are getting food!..... and everyone does use it (treats) that is my point. Simply because you cant control a dog any other way doesnt make every other method rubbish. 
Realistcally if you cant control your dog by any other means (treats) and you heard of a way to control them I dont know why you wouldnt try it.hmy:


----------



## james1

sallyanne said:


> There must be plenty of us that are lazy and couldn't care less about our dogs and think we are clever then
> 
> I find this post offensive,
> 
> I would love to see you handle my bitch, and deal with her aggression towards other dogs....
> I would love to see your recall skills whilst my boy is chasing a fox,
> 
> To be honest I don't really think you understand positive training in the slighest.


I have an extremely fast springer pup - that chases anything that moves
I can call him off and he will return 99% whether he is 10ft away or 80ft - I dont give him a treat I give him a good boy when hes close and he will go out again.


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> I have an extremely fast springer pup - that chases anything that moves
> I can call him off and he will return 99% whether he is 10ft away or 80ft - I dont give him a treat I give him a good boy when hes close and he will go out again.


Have you trained any dog that ISN'T a working breed?


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> lol thats funny.
> 
> They would love it,:idea: they are getting play and they are getting food!..... and everyone does use it (treats) that is my point. Simply because you cant control a dog any other way doesnt make every other method rubbish.
> Realistcally if you cant control your dog by any other means (treats) and you heard of a way to control them I dont know why you wouldnt try it.hmy:


And you teach "sit" by......?


----------



## james1

james1 said:


> I firmly believe that some people shouldnt have dogs, simply because they cant control it, if you cant control it with your voice, hands, whistle then you should resort to cheap trickery - which is what treat training it at the end of the day.
> 
> Tell me if im wrong - my dedicated fingers await


hits the spot for me and if it offends you then i hope those happy snappers dont come anywhere near - as all youll do is post something on here about a badly trained animal


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> I have an extremely fast springer pup - that chases anything that moves
> I can call him off and he will return 99% whether he is 10ft away or 80ft - I dont give him a treat I give him a good boy when hes close and he will go out again.


So tell me how you would deal with my bitch without using treats,
How's about my boy chasing a fox ? How would you recall him ?

You keep giving examples of your own dogs yet fail to tell us how exactly you would deal with other dogs i.e the questions above you are not answering ?
I did not ask about your own but asked how you would deal with mine,or don't you know ?

By the way a leave it command is absolutely not effective in the slightest.


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> And you teach "sit" by......?


as i say - come to my house if you need the help so badly


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> I have an extremely fast springer pup - that chases anything that moves
> I can call him off and he will return 99% whether he is 10ft away or 80ft - I dont give him a treat I give him a good boy when hes close and he will go out again.


Hmm.... and he was born understanding English, right? Otherwise how does he know what on earth "Good boy" means?


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> as i say - come to my house if you need the help so badly


No, I'm fine ta.

Just interested in how YOU teach it. After all, there are many ways. How do YOU do it? Simple enough question.


----------



## james1

sallyanne said:


> There must be plenty of us that are lazy and couldn't care less about our dogs and think we are clever then
> 
> I find this post offensive,
> 
> I would love to see you handle my bitch, and deal with her aggression towards other dogs....
> I would love to see your recall skills whilst my boy is chasing a fox,
> 
> To be honest I don't really think you understand positive training in the slighest.


 if your positive training -- treats ??? might i guess??? are working so well then why are you talking about a bad tempered bitch and a boy that will chase down foxes.
Try something new - it may well be a guinness moment


----------



## Guest

Nonnie said:


> Many breeds have no desire to work, nor do they respond to praise. They have no need to seek human approval and lack that drive to have a "job".
> 
> In these cases treats are a godsend. What works for some, wont always work for another. I trained both mine with treats, although i rarely treat now as the behaviour has been learnt. If they start flagging in certain areas, i will reintroduce treats. If i was to train Oscar using just praise, he's more than likely stick two fingers up at me and carry on doing what ever he finds more rewarding.
> 
> I wonder James1, have you trained any breeds other than working ones?





Nonnie said:


> James, you never answered my question.





Nonnie said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Ignored again.





Nonnie said:


> Have you ever trained a non working breed?





Nonnie said:


> Im guessing James has never trained a non working breed. Never dealt with a dog that couldnt give a toss about having a job or pleasing its owner.





Nonnie said:


> Testing, testing..





Nonnie said:


> Have you trained any dog that ISN'T a working breed?


Omg!!! you are ignoring Nonnie, James tut tut tut!!! **shakes head**


----------



## Vicki

james1 said:


> Im not going to read all of your post as you talk rubbish ...... I didnt call you a liar I said you dont know what your talking about. You are just very quick to make assumptions and take everything quite personally. Probably because you give your dog food everytime it looks at you.
> 
> Prison/police dogs are sent to specialist dog trainers like it or not. A handler is not a trainer though yes they will have been trained to handle the dog. There is a huge difference.


Since I bother to read your posts even if you talk rubbish I know that this is what you wrote "Your knowledge of how professional orgaisations train their dogs is totally made up. Please dont try and waffle your made up opinions on a thread that people try to glean info from." You didn't use the word liar, but accusing someone of making things up is really the same thing 

You really have a problem with your reading comprehension, but I repeat once again: *where I live,* police dogs are not sent to specialist dog trainers! The policemen- and women train their dogs themselves, with some guidance from specialist trainers.


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> Good idea , i'd like to see James working 6 dogs at a time as a team under very tempting circumstances without a lead.
> I'd like to see James train his dog to the gun(as he seems to thimk i'm doing it wrong).
> I'd like to see James walking my pack of terriers trying to control them with a toy.


id like to know how a FTCH owner condones the use of regular treat training, results or not - theres no real control needed at the end of the day. I might start with the fried chicken and see how many rosettes i get


----------



## Colliepoodle

DevilDogz said:


> Omg!!! you are ignoring Nonnie James tut tut tut!!! **shakes head**


He won't tell me how he teaches sit, either


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> No, I'm fine ta.
> 
> Just interested in how YOU teach it. After all, there are many ways. How do YOU do it? Simple enough question.


it is a simple enough question, but seen as this thread has gone in so many directions im not going entertain it im afraid. Just find a trainer that doesnt use treats and you will see the light, if your buddies can cope with the revelation that is ut:


----------



## Nonnie

Nonnie said:


> Have you trained any dog that ISN'T a working breed?


AHEM!!

I think you are avoiding answering because you only have experience of highly motivated, easy to please and train breeds. They dont need treats, because their "work" is their reward. When you have a dog that require no job, and doesnt respond to praise, then you need something that it does value, and thats food.


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> if your positive training -- treats ??? might i guess??? are working so well then why are you talking about a bad tempered bitch and a boy that will chase down foxes.
> Try something new - it may well be a guinness moment


Now that was the response I was expecting still avoiding simple questions,
Is that the best you can come up with ? 

Chasing foxes - natural hunting instincts for a terrier,enjoyed the thrill of the chase,eventually he stopped and did recall.

Bad tempered bitch,nope. She is aggressive because of been attacked and bitten on numerous occasions - Next ?

So how would *YOU* deal and train through it ?


----------



## james1

DevilDogz said:


> Omg!!! you are ignoring Nonnie, James tut tut tut!!! **shakes head**


Oh, cant be having that now :blushing:
To Nonnie:
some breeds arent orientated to take commands no ---- but are labs, are crosses, are sheepdogs, are gsp, are collies? YES!

soooooo why the treat training with them .


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> Oh, cant be having that now :blushing:
> To Nonnie:
> some breeds arent orientated to take commands no ---- but are labs, are crosses, are sheepdogs, are gsp, are collies? YES!
> 
> soooooo why the treat training with them .


Still an indirect answer,you haven't answered her question again


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> Oh, cant be having that now :blushing:
> To Nonnie:
> some breeds arent orientated to take commands no ---- but are labs, are crosses, are sheepdogs, are gsp, are collies? YES!
> 
> soooooo why the treat training with them .


But you're saying treat training isnt needed AT ALL. Most on here beg to differ.

Still havent answered my question


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> it is a simple enough question, but seen as this thread has gone in so many directions im not going entertain it im afraid. Just find a trainer that doesnt use treats and you will see the light, if your buddies can cope with the revelation that is ut:


Sorry James but you're losing credibility here.

Everyone else is quite happy to answer questions about their training methods and experience in the face of what has been fairly scathing, condescending posts from you.

Your lofty attitude, frequent "rolly eye" smileys and sarcasm suggests you regard yourself as a far more enlightened trainer than anyone else on here. Fair enough - but until you can put your money where your mouth is and list all the different breeds you have trained successfully with no rewards, and detailed how you would teach a simple "sit", then as far as I'm concerned you're getting written off as a know-it-all blowhard


----------



## james1

Vicki said:


> You really have a problem with your reading comprehension, but I repeat once again: *where I live,* police dogs are not sent to specialist dog trainers! The policemen- and women train their dogs themselves, with some guidance from specialist trainers.


Im affraid your wrong. They are sent to schools every year for intensive 'refresher' training and the handler takes it from there 
There is no guidence as the dogs are sent off, the trainer is not over the handlers shoulder 'guiding' them in the least


----------



## james1

Nonnie said:


> AHEM!!
> 
> I think you are avoiding answering because you only have experience of highly motivated, easy to please and train breeds. They dont need treats, because their "work" is their reward. When you have a dog that require no job, and doesnt respond to praise, then you need something that it does value, and thats food.


no i just saw sigh posts and thought you were just breathing


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> no i just saw sigh posts and thought you were just breathing


Well, now you've noticed, care to answer?

It's a simple yes or no


----------



## james1

sallyanne said:


> Now that was the response I was expecting still avoiding simple questions,
> Is that the best you can come up with ?
> 
> Chasing foxes - natural hunting instincts for a terrier,enjoyed the thrill of the chase,eventually he stopped and did recall.
> 
> Bad tempered bitch,nope. She is aggressive because of been attacked and bitten on numerous occasions - Next ?
> 
> So how would *YOU* deal and train through it ?


I have already given you my opinion on how I would deal with the bitch.
And its really not avoiding the question at all - if you use treats and they havent worked - isnt that telling you something. 
It tells me im right in that either you cant control it or that my methods work and treats dont


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> no i just saw sigh posts and thought you were just breathing


You do realise that sarcasm and ad hominem attacks weaken your argument, don't you?


----------



## james1

Nonnie said:


> But you're saying treat training isnt needed AT ALL. Most on here beg to differ.
> 
> Still havent answered my question


expert James will try and find your question. gimme 2


----------



## Vicki

james1 said:


> Im affraid your wrong. They are sent to schools every year for intensive 'refresher' training and the handler takes it from there
> There is no guidence as the dogs are sent off, the trainer is not over the handlers shoulder 'guiding' them in the least


My god, you really are daft  

Do you really believe that every police dog in the entire world is trained exactly the same way as they are in the UK? I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe police dogs in the UK are sent to schools, but WHERE I LIVE they are not!!!


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> expert James will try and find your question. gimme 2


I'll make it easier for you...

Have you ever trained a non working breed?

I can make a yes/no tick box if you like


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> Sorry James but you're losing credibility here.
> 
> Everyone else is quite happy to answer questions about their training methods and experience in the face of what has been fairly scathing, condescending posts from you.
> 
> Your lofty attitude, frequent "rolly eye" smileys and sarcasm suggests you regard yourself as a far more enlightened trainer than anyone else on here. Fair enough - but until you can put your money where your mouth is and list all the different breeds you have trained successfully with no rewards, and detailed how you would teach a simple "sit", then as far as I'm concerned you're getting written off as a know-it-all blowhard


are you trying to tell me off?

I might point out that I use sarcasm as your post to me sound extraordinary.
I try not to use rolley eyes - sorry if this makes you dizzy 

Non of the people saying they use treats have justfied themselves in anyway - i have I feel. 
There is only you points out some trainers that are high in their field that use treats - I have said too many times to mention ...... dogs will do anything for food - its a basic instict that doesnt show any owner leadership in the least.

got to try and find nonnies post


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> have you tried making her look at you unreservedly when another approaches - using a treat would be the biggest attention grabber id say, however, then not issuing it? Instead praising and walking once the danger has passed? Alternate with treat praise gradually reducing?





james1 said:


> I have already given you my opinion on how I would deal with the bitch.
> And its really not avoiding the question at all - if you use treats and they havent worked - isnt that telling you something.
> It tells me im right in that either you cant control it or that my methods work and treats dont


Your contradicting yourself now 
So you don't train using treats,see above....

Who said it wasn't working ? I didn't, another assumption on your part me thinks!

You can talk the talk,well waffle yet can't explain or give any direct answers,really an expert in the world dog training :smilewinkgrin:


----------



## james1

Vicki said:


> My god, you really are daft
> 
> Do you really believe that every police dog in the entire world is trained exactly the same way as they are in the UK? I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe police dogs in the UK are sent to schools, but WHERE I LIVE they are not!!!


well either im right, wrong or daft then - make ya mind up would you!


----------



## james1

Nonnie said:


> I'll make it easier for you...
> 
> Have you ever trained a non working breed?
> 
> I can make a yes/no tick box if you like


consistently . No. box ticked?


----------



## james1

sallyanne said:


> Your contradicting yourself now
> So you don't train using treats,see above....
> 
> Who said it wasn't working ? I didn't, another assumption on your part me thinks!
> 
> You can talk the talk,well waffle yet can't explain or give any direct answers,really an expert in the world dog training :smilewinkgrin:


well if you have an aggresive bitch and a boy that only just comes off, then it isnt working! - so have you tried what I suggested or are you dissapointed that I gave you some adivce you didnt see to condescend


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> consistently . No. box ticked?


Well my case is rested. You'd be in over your head with most dogs. Everyone could be a great trainer, should they have an easy breed like yours. I was able to work a Kelpie and a BC at just 12 years old. Easy as they have focus and purpose.

Id like to see you train a strong willed and independant SBT without using treats.

Btw, if you had answered this hours ago, i could have been saved from having to read your poppycock posts.


----------



## james1

Nonnie said:


> Well my case is rested. You'd be in over your head with most dogs. Everyone could be a great trainer, should they have an easy breed like yours. I was able to work a Kelpie and a BC at just 12 years old. Easy as they have focus and purpose.
> 
> Id like to see you train a strong willed and independant SBT without using treats.
> 
> Btw, if you had answered this hours ago, i could have been saved from having to read your poppycock posts.


hahahahahahahaha Nonnie you absolute star .... id kiss you male or female!

You think a working ESS is an easy breed!!!!??? oooooo your lovely, i dont know where to start now im all giddy!!! let me see - hes from the highlands of Scotland where his mummy and daddy get to play in big fields with lots of sheep and cattle, the daddy is a big sculled boy who doesnt like any dog approaching his bitch. My pup, superstar I like to call him. Does not like being told what to do ...... in fact he would attack me and any male friend at any given moment but was very soft for the girls. He had serious dominace issues - he would hang from my olders ears and rag them senseless, take a running jump for his tail, privates anything he could get his snappers into. Once old enough, you could say goodbye to any thinking that if he disappeared he wouldnt get fed and id regualary have to wait until hed run so much that hed eventually stop.
An easy breed ..... id like to see one


----------



## james1

sallyanne said:


> Your contradicting yourself now
> So you don't train using treats,see above....
> 
> Who said it wasn't working ? I didn't, another assumption on your part me thinks!
> 
> You can talk the talk,well waffle yet can't explain or give any direct answers,really an expert in the world dog training :smilewinkgrin:


Ive just realised something , simply because i dont tell it you directly doenst mean i dont mean others cant apply it.
Find a dog trainer that doesnt use treats, and your should see a great difference in your bitch at least. I am not a trainer, i just see treats as pointless for reasons stated prev


----------



## james1

Thank goodness, I hope coffee has been smelt :w00t:


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> id like to know how a FTCH owner condones the use of regular treat training, results or not - theres no real control needed at the end of the day. I might start with the fried chicken and see how many rosettes i get


 Can you explain what you mean by no control needed.Again James if you listen you will understand that titbits are used on pups,very strict control is needed during a trial.
How many gundog trials have you been on?
How many shoot days have you watched dogs work?
Most importantly James your pup is 6 months old,he has yet to reach the age of adolesent defiance.And what i would really like to is did you have your sniffer dog from a young pup and did you train him his job yourself?


----------



## Vicki

james1 said:


> Im affraid your wrong. They are sent to schools every year for intensive 'refresher' training and the handler takes it from there
> There is no guidence as the dogs are sent off, the trainer is not over the handlers shoulder 'guiding' them in the least


I became curious about how police dogs are trained in the UK, so I googled a little and this is what I found: Metropolitan Police Service - History of the Metropolitan Police Service

So it seems that it's not so different from where I live after all. They get their dogs as puppies and they do most of the training themselves. The dogs aren't sent away to schools; the dog and handler go to training courses together.


----------



## Guest

Vicki said:


> I became curious about how police dogs are trained in the UK, so I googled a little and this is what I found: Metropolitan Police Service - History of the Metropolitan Police Service
> 
> So it seems that it's not so different from where I live after all. They get their dogs as puppies and they do most of the training themselves. The dogs aren't sent away to schools; the dog and handler go to training courses together.


Vicki you are not wrong, just up the road from me there is a massive police station, they train all their dogs there and they often do displays for the public


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> Can you explain what you mean by no control needed.Again James if you listen you will understand that titbits are used on pups,very strict control is needed during a trial.
> How many gundog trials have you been on?
> How many shoot days have you watched dogs work?
> Most importantly James your pup is 6 months old,he has yet to reach the age of adolesent defiance.And what i would really like to is did you have your sniffer dog from a young pup and did you train him his job yourself?


I am not talking about tidbits for pups im talking about adults that you see dependent on treats for doing anything the owner wants. Though, as pups tidbits are really only that, needed once or twice on a couple of exercises (if at all) and then done.

Ive been to a few shoots, and ive been looking at some attending some trails, and no ive never sen treats used. If I said I trained my sniffer would it make any difference........ not in the least. If I had do you think i would have changed any peoples opinion about treats used to control dogs - no, so it adds very little to the thread really

I have not trained my sniffer no.


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> I am not talking about tidbits for pups im talking about adults that you see dependent on treats for doing anything the owner wants. Though, as pups tidbits are really only that, needed once or twice on a couple of exercises (if at all) and then done.
> 
> Ive been to a few shoots, and ive been looking at some attending some trails, and no ive never sen treats used. If I said I trained my sniffer would it make any difference........ not in the least. If I had do you think i would have changed any peoples opinion about treats used to control dogs - no, so it adds very little to the thread really
> 
> I have not trained my sniffer no.


Bingo there's your answer everybody.He's never trained a dog !!!!!!!
Inherited one trained by somebody else,and has a 6 month old pup who by anyones standards would not have started proper training yet.

By the way James you are not permited to use treats on trials and as i have said repeatedly the working adults do not get treats when they are properly working.
Now we have established what a very inexperienced dog handler youare, i have done here as you are one of those people that has done nothing but knows everything.


----------



## Guest

You make me laugh! LOL!

I have been working with my bitch - She will now ignore other dogs providing they don't run full pelt and jump all over her 
I told you what we have been doing with her



sallyanne said:


> Well for me I will continue to be lazy and train using treats.
> 
> I have used treats with both of my dogs and are currently using them with my bitch along with a toy,when another dog is approaching,so she assiociates nice things with other dogs,she can be aggressive after been attacked several times.
> 
> In your opinion it may be lazy,in my opinion it works and gets results so we don't have a problem using them.


I posted this before your suggestion.


james1 said:


> have you tried making her look at you unreservedly when another approaches - using a treat would be the biggest attention grabber id say, however, then not issuing it? Instead praising and walking once the danger has passed? Alternate with treat praise gradually reducing?


As I said it works for us.You have assumed it's not working,I have never said it wasn't.

As for my boy he has chased a fox once,his recall has never been a problem,however after speaking with other's who have had the same problem and same breed we have been advised to keep him onlead if there are likely to be foxes about.


----------



## Colliepoodle

James you're talking out of your @rse. You have one dog that you didn't train, you've got another that isn't fully trained.

You constantly talk about gun dogs working with no treats when it has already been explained to you the difference between a working dog viewing its work as reward and a more difficult to motivate dog working for treats.

It has been explained to you that treats are generally used to TEACH a new behaviour - once a behaviour is learnt then intermittent treats come into play, or else the reward becomes a toy. Or, for example with an instant "down" on walks, the release from the down is the reward. No treat necessary.

You sneer at those who use treats, claiming to have a FAR better way - yet you aren't sure how to teach a "sit". Or maybe you are, but are reluctant to outline your method because either a) You have realised that you DO use reward (praise, as we have covered, is still reward) or b) you use aversion/compulsion - in which case your dog is working to AVOID something. Either way, it isn't complying out of respect for you or eagerness to please.

You carry on viewing reward-based training as "lazy" if it makes you feel superior - more enlightened trainers will carry on with what gets the fastest and most successful results


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> Bingo there's your answer everybody.He's never trained a dog !!!!!!!
> Inherited one trained by somebody else,and has a 6 month old pup who by anyones standards would not have started proper training yet.
> 
> By the way James you are not permited to use treats on trials and as i have said repeatedly the working adults do not get treats when they are properly working.
> Now we have established what a very inexperienced dog handler youare, i have done here as you are one of those people that has done nothing but knows everything.


You sound more Inspector Clouseau the Hercule Poirot. Ive never said I was a dog trainer, I was simply stating you dont need treats to trian. Whereever you have got that idea from i can only imagine- ill take it as a compliment.
I think youll find it is you that has has said it is perfectly fine to train gundogs with treats, and youve also said its perfectly fine to pet them silly Bucksmum. You have said nothing repeatedely so stop trying to big yourself up.:blushing: All you have said repeatedly is that you had more than 6 dogs, attended shows and have got a FTCH..... which has got little in the way of anything to do with showing members that there are infact diffrent and successful training methods. If you want to use treat methods use them .......... all you need is confidence AND patience to train withouut.
- But as I say ... I do think a lot of dog owners shouldnt have dogs


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> You sound more Inspector Clouseau the Hercule Poirot. Ive never said I was a dog trainer, I was simply stating you dont need treats to trian. Whereever you have got that idea from i can only imagine- ill take it as a compliment.
> I think youll find it is you that has has said it is perfectly fine to train gundogs with treats, and youve also said its perfectly fine to pet them silly Bucksmum. You have said nothing repeatedely so stop trying to big yourself up.:blushing: All you have said repeatedly is that you had more than 6 dogs, attended shows and have got a FTCH..... which has got little in the way of anything to do with showing members that there are infact diffrent and successful training methods. If you want to use treat methods use them .......... all you need is confidence AND patience to train withouut.
> - But as I say ... I do think a lot of dog owners shouldnt have dogs


James your last comment makes no sense at all.

Presumably you are suggesting that people who use reward based training (and get better and faster results with keener, happier dogs) shouldn't have dogs. And that people who use slower methods that need more patience and DON'T use rewards are the ones who should have dogs. Riiiiiiiight....... ut:


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> James you're talking out of your @rse. You have one dog that you didn't train, you've got another that isn't fully trained.
> 
> You constantly talk about gun dogs working with no treats when it has already been explained to you the difference between a working dog viewing its work as reward and a more difficult to motivate dog working for treats.
> 
> It has been explained to you that treats are generally used to TEACH a new behaviour - once a behaviour is learnt then intermittent treats come into play, or else the reward becomes a toy. Or, for example with an instant "down" on walks, the release from the down is the reward. No treat necessary.
> 
> You sneer at those who use treats, claiming to have a FAR better way - yet you aren't sure how to teach a "sit". Or maybe you are, but are reluctant to outline your method because either a) You have realised that you DO use reward (praise, as we have covered, is still reward) or b) you use aversion/compulsion - in which case your dog is working to AVOID something. Either way, it isn't complying out of respect for you or eagerness to please.
> 
> You carry on viewing reward-based training as "lazy" if it makes you feel superior - more enlightened trainers will carry on with what gets the fastest and most successful results


I knew there was a reason why I dont like you, you just make things up to suit. It has got nothing to do with gundogs. Buckmum and Nonnie has started to include them so " they are generally used for new behaviour" are they -------- stop speaking before you think ... go to any public event and youll see them no matter what age or breed
ALL BREED TYPES ARE USED USING FOOD BASED METHODS!!! Id prefer it if youd stop making things up ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID and have a look around the agility ring - there is a treat infront of their nose even at intermediate level. AND these are collies  And if they dont get one at the end then id be surprised. So you saying motivated easy breeeds dont need them and they are only used with hard to train breed - is wrong. Colliepoodle ..... ill toss you a bone if you stop posting on here - how about that. 
Why should I tell you my methods if all that YOU are going to do is Sneer yourself - dont try and tar me. I dont like it.:cursing: I have simply said there are other methods that are successful and you have stamped your feet and had a tantrum over it. Along with a few others. 
Dont try to get one over on me thinking you can shout louder - as I will not have it


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> James your last comment makes no sense at all.
> 
> Presumably you are suggesting that people who use reward based training (and get better and faster results with keener, happier dogs) shouldn't have dogs. And that people who use slower methods that need more patience and DON'T use rewards are the ones who should have dogs. Riiiiiiiight....... ut:


That is your opinion, it is not a fact so try not to treat it like one. I like to tell my dog something it is going to do it - I am sure I dont need a treat to make it happen. If your not capable of that. Get feeding


----------



## Nonnie

Rofl, i can't believe someone who hasnt even successfully trained ONE dog is trying to judge the rest of us and tell us we're all wrong (along with possibly 90% of the countries population).

There are various methods of training dogs. Who cares how someone goes about it, aslong as it isnt cruel and abusive, and it gets the desired results.

Stop getting your panites in a bunch James, You sound like a cult member, completely brainwashed.


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> I knew there was a reason why I dont like you, you just make things up to suit. It has got nothing to do with gundogs. Buckmum and Nonnie has started to include them so " they are generally used for new behaviour" are they -------- stop speaking before you think ... go to any public event and youll see them no matter what age or breed
> ALL BREED TYPES ARE USED USING FOOD BASED METHODS!!! Id prefer it if youd stop making things up ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID and have a look around the agility ring - there is a treat infront of their nose even at intermediate level. AND these are collies  And if they dont get one at the end then id be surprised. So you saying motivated easy breeeds dont need them and they are only used with hard to train breed - is wrong. Colliepoodle ..... ill toss you a bone if you stop posting on here - how about that.
> Why should I tell you my methods if all that YOU are going to do is Sneer yourself - dont try and tar me. I dont like it.:cursing: I have simply said there are other methods that are successful and you have stamped your feet and had a tantrum over it. Along with a few others.
> Dont try to get one over on me thinking you can shout louder - as I will not have it


Keep your wig on, dear. There's only one person shouting on here and it isn't me. Is there a single smiley you didn't use in that post? 

Tantrum? Erm, no. Not me. Maybe you need to take a few moments and compose yourself. It would certainly improve your punctuation and make your posts easier to read.

Anyway... no, there won't be a treat in front of any agility dog's nose in the ring, because food isn't allowed. A lot of agility dogs are rewarded with toys, anyway, rather than food - remember, the DOG chooses what motivates it most.

And I am not saying that an agility dog won't get a toy reward at the end of the round. I am an advocate of REWARD BASED TRAINING. The clue is there... 

Why do you have such a problem with rewarding a dog, anyway? Did you never get many house points at school?


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> That is your opinion, it is not a fact so try not to treat it like one. I like to tell my dog something it is going to do it - I am sure I dont need a treat to make it happen. If your not capable of that. Get feeding


Do calm down James. You're in danger of becoming a foamer


----------



## Colliepoodle

> Dont try to get one over on me thinking you can shout louder - as I will not have it mad


Oh hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!     

Oh you really are a bit of a prima donna, aren't you? You "will not have it"??

LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!

Priceless...

What are you going to do - slap the screen?!


----------



## Colliepoodle

> Colliepoodle ..... ill toss you a bone if you stop posting on here - how about that.


Erm.... nah. I think I'll carry on. Watching you getting increasingly hysterical and bitchy - not to mention proving with every word you type that you couldn't train ivy up a wall - is amusing me greatly.


----------



## Guest

james1 said:


> You sound more Inspector Clouseau the Hercule Poirot. Ive never said I was a dog trainer, I was simply stating you dont need treats to trian. Whereever you have got that idea from i can only imagine- ill take it as a compliment.
> I think youll find it is you that has has said it is perfectly fine to train gundogs with treats, and youve also said its perfectly fine to pet them silly Bucksmum. You have said nothing repeatedely so stop trying to big yourself up.:blushing: All you have said repeatedly is that you had more than 6 dogs, attended shows and have got a FTCH..... which has got little in the way of anything to do with showing members that there are infact diffrent and successful training methods. If you want to use treat methods use them .......... all you need is confidence AND patience to train withouut.
> - But as I say ... I do think a lot of dog owners shouldnt have dogs





james1 said:


> I knew there was a reason why I dont like you, you just make things up to suit. It has got nothing to do with gundogs. Buckmum and Nonnie has started to include them so " they are generally used for new behaviour" are they -------- stop speaking before you think ... go to any public event and youll see them no matter what age or breed
> ALL BREED TYPES ARE USED USING FOOD BASED METHODS!!! Id prefer it if youd stop making things up ABOUT WHAT I HAVE SAID and have a look around the agility ring - there is a treat infront of their nose even at intermediate level. AND these are collies  And if they dont get one at the end then id be surprised. So you saying motivated easy breeeds dont need them and they are only used with hard to train breed - is wrong. Colliepoodle ..... ill toss you a bone if you stop posting on here - how about that.
> Why should I tell you my methods if all that YOU are going to do is Sneer yourself - dont try and tar me. I dont like it.:cursing: I have simply said there are other methods that are successful and you have stamped your feet and had a tantrum over it. Along with a few others.
> Dont try to get one over on me thinking you can shout louder - as I will not have it


James I've noticed more and more over the time I have been back on here that on your threads, and on your posts, if people don't agree with you, you start being nasty with your tongue in cheek innuendo's, can I ask why ?

The OP has come on here and asked for advice and you are guilty of turning it into a slanging match, if you can't post without the snide comments, can you do us all a favour and not post at all?

You've demonstrated you know very little at all about training any dog and I for one question you on why you chose to own a dog? I find the "Some of us shouldn't own a dog" insulting and the more and more you post you are insulting decent members of the forum.


----------



## Dundee

> Originally Posted by james1
> I am not talking about tidbits for pups im talking about adults that you see dependent on treats for doing anything the owner wants. Though, as pups tidbits are really only that, needed once or twice on a couple of exercises (if at all) and then done.
> 
> Ive been to a few shoots, and ive been looking at some attending some trails, and no ive never sen treats used. If I said I trained my sniffer would it make any difference........ not in the least. If I had do you think i would have changed any peoples opinion about treats used to control dogs - no, so it adds very little to the thread really
> 
> I have not trained my sniffer no.


Blimey, I've not read through all this , but as the subject turned to gundogs thought I'd just add.....
I have gundogs and always use treats as puppies. You won't see older dogs being given treats (except when at home  ), because once you have reached a certain stage, the retrieve becomes the 'reward'. My labs wouldn't take a treat if they were waiting for a retrieve (they'd spit it out) as the retrieve is much more important to them than a treat.

All dogs need a reward to motivate them - what that reward is will depend on the individual dog - it could be treats, it could be a toy, it could be praise, but dogs don't work for nothing.


----------



## Colliepoodle

Dundee said:


> Blimey, I've not read through all this , but as the subject turned to gundogs thought I'd just add.....
> I have gundogs and always use treats as puppies. You won't see older dogs being given treats (except when at home  ), because once you have reached a certain stage, the retrieve becomes the 'reward'. My labs wouldn't take a treat if they were waiting for a retrieve (they'd spit it out) as the retrieve is much more important to them than a treat.
> 
> All dogs need a reward to motivate them - what that reward is will depend on the individual dog - it could be treats, it could be a toy, it could be praise, but dogs don't work for nothing.


That pretty much sums up what I've been saying. However, James, it seems, has developed a method whereby dogs do things "just because", with no reward whatsoever!


----------



## Dundee

> Hello all, I'm new to this forum business so please bear with me and I'll apologise in advance for not replying quickly as I don't get time to come on here often.
> 
> I have a very hyper GSP and I'm tearing my hair out at the moment. He is 8.5 months old and he won't seem to calm down. We had a GSP for 10 years up until we lost him last year so we have had some experience with the breed but I don't remember it being this hard with him.
> 
> Sorry if this post is long but so is the list of problems with Oscar! He pulls on the lead, we have tried treating when he is walking by my side but as soon as the treat has gone he lunges forward again and if there is any distraction (people, dogs, bikes, children, anything really) I have to brace myself as he tries everything in his power to get to it and I can't seem to keep his attention for more than a split second.
> 
> He is currently being fed on a dried junior food and someone has suggested that I may need to reduce his protein intake but I'm not sure the best way to do this and still get him the nutrients he needs being a young dog.
> 
> I have given up on puppy training classes as it is impossible to hold on to him with so many people and dogs around to jump on or run around. I thought maybe gun dog training would be a good idea but I need something very local as he really does not like going in the car at all. (sometimes sick and he will lay down as flat as possible to avoid being picked up to go in it even when he hears the keys rattle).
> 
> There is absolutely no aggression in him but he is just so full on and bouncy when he sees anybody or if anyone comes visiting (which people are avoiding at the moment). Please help.


Clare&Oscar - hopefully you've got this far , then if he really is 'hyper', it's worth looking at what you are feeding him. That said, puppies can be bundles of enormous energy - especially in a breed that's been bred to work.
IMO mental stimulation is far more tiring than physical exercise which simply results in them being fitter and requiring more exercise 

I don't use headcollars, but can see their merit, particularly when a dog has become an established 'puller' and particularly with a larger strong dog. To teach them to walk at heel, I do use treats, but only when they are doing it correctly. Simply, I don't allow them to move forward unless they are at heel. If they start moving forward I simply change direction, and if they start moving forward in that direction, then I change direction again. If they start pulling I stop. They do learn that they won't be going anywhere unless they are walking to heel. At first you may only find you go 10m down the road. If that's the case, then so be it. The reward is that when he walks to heel he gets to go somewhere. It may well be best to use a headcollar some of the time so that you can actually get where you want to go without him pulling, but do take time to actually 'train' him too.


----------



## bucksmum

Dundee said:


> Blimey, I've not read through all this , but as the subject turned to gundogs thought I'd just add.....
> I have gundogs and always use treats as puppies. You won't see older dogs being given treats (except when at home  ), because once you have reached a certain stage, the retrieve becomes the 'reward'. My labs wouldn't take a treat if they were waiting for a retrieve (they'd spit it out) as the retrieve is much more important to them than a treat.
> 
> All dogs need a reward to motivate them - what that reward is will depend on the individual dog - it could be treats, it could be a toy, it could be praise, but dogs don't work for nothing.


Thankyou Dundee,you have put the case for gundog work excellently.I wish i had your way with words. I have not answered James as i have now realised that having NEVER trained a dog before he doesn't have the experience so it's pointless.

Also Dundee you having working gundogs and us having trialing champions and gundogs that work 5 days a week during season can you see where on earth he is coming from saying you must not touch a gundog pup round the head area .No James please have the manners not to reply with your nonsense,this is just a matter i would like to explain as it's something i feel very strongly about that ALL pups should see your hand as friends and be willing to come to hand with a retrieve or without.

Guys i think when James has maybe trained his pup he can come back and lecture us all then,but know we all know he had a ready READY TRAINED DOG his arguement is completely over.


----------



## Clare&Oscar

I only asked!!
Can everyone stop bitching and get back to the point please.
Firstly thank you to everyone who has given me a non-aggressive reply.

I have tried a headcollar but unfortunately nothing seems to stop him from trying to get to other people/dogs and he has repeatedly twisted and turned and I am worried that it will cause him damage.

I'm not sure they would have me back at training classes as he was such a disruptive influence he just wanted to play with everyone and their dogs, even when just going into the field I would have to brace myself before the run up to get to everyone - it's felt like he has broken my fingers/wrists on many occasions! I didn't take training classes lightly and I think I persevered an awful lot longer than anyone else - the trainer credited me on it but in the end I had to give in as everything we tried seemed to have no effect on him reacting to distractions of which there are many at training classes.
If there are no distractions at all he is very responsive - when we were the only ones to turn up to training on one occasion the trainer was really impressed.

In answer to some of your questions:
1. he is being fed Eukenuba Junior Large breed.

2. Yes we are planning on neutering him but we have been advised to wait until he is 1 year old.

3. The reason I use food treats (very small) is because high praise rewards get a very excitable dog absolutely manic!

4. He gets x2 hour long walks a day and sometimes a short walk with a very short car drive beforehand (to try and get him used to the car - so far with no success) and also as I work from home he has access to the garden for most of the day.

5. If he is off lead he is no calmer, don't get me wrong he always comes back but only after he has finished with the distraction or finished bouncing off someone or their dog.

I know some people may say that I shouldn't have a Gundog if I'm not going to hunt, hunt, hunt but I was hoping to get him to a stage where I could do something like agility as I am not into killing things for fun and ultimately every breed of dog is a hunter in some form. We are very active - lots of walks, large garden, woods and river at the end of the garden so i don't believe this is the wrong breed for us.

GSP's are incredibly affectionate dogs (our previous GSP had a beautiful temperament - boisterous and bouncy again though) and I believe if you have owned one you will never have any other breed. I was just hoping that this time around we could find a better way to train for this very non 'one size fits all' breed.


----------



## Dundee

> I'm not sure they would have me back at training classes as he was such a disruptive influence he just wanted to play with everyone and their dogs


I don't know where you went, but I'm going to tentatively suggest (don't want to upset anyone), that this may not have been the best of trainers. A good trainer is there to help you regardless - they may suggest a one to one to start with, they may have and use stooge dogs initially to help you get started, but I think training is worth continuing with.

the APDT website lists good trainers by area.


----------



## Colliepoodle

Dundee said:


> I don't know where you went, but I'm going to tentatively suggest (don't want to upset anyone), that this may not have been the best of trainers. A good trainer is there to help you regardless - they may suggest a one to one to start with, they may have and use stooge dogs initially to help you get started, but I think training is worth continuing with.
> 
> the APDT website lists good trainers by area.


Someone I know of, who had a Westie that was OBSESSED with other dogs, went to a class run by Paddy Driscoll (a very highly respected trainer) and spent the first couple of sessions in the room NEXT to the main training room just clicking and treating her dog for looking at her. They moved on to getting closer and closer to the other dogs until they were joining in with the class with her dog focussed on her completely.

It takes time, but it's well worth it and a decent trainer will be able to help you regardless of how "disruptive" your dog is.


----------



## james1

Nonnie said:


> Rofl, i can't believe someone who hasnt even successfully trained ONE dog is trying to judge the rest of us and tell us we're all wrong (along with possibly 90% of the countries population).
> 
> There are various methods of training dogs. Who cares how someone goes about it, aslong as it isnt cruel and abusive, and it gets the desired results.
> 
> Stop getting your panites in a bunch James, You sound like a cult member, completely brainwashed.


There you go again I have never said it is wrong 
I have said there are alternative and easier methods to get a dog to obey. If a handler cant assert themselves over a dog - and has to resort to bribery - then in my view they shouldnt have a dog. Im an neither right or wrong - it is my opinion and on that is supported widely if not by this thread.


----------



## Dundee

> Someone I know of, who had a Westie that was OBSESSED with other dogs, went to a class run by Paddy Driscoll (a very highly respected trainer) and spent the first couple of sessions in the room NEXT to the main training room just clicking and treating her dog for looking at her. They moved on to getting closer and closer to the other dogs until they were joining in with the class with her dog focussed on her completely.
> 
> It takes time, but it's well worth it and a decent trainer will be able to help you regardless of how "disruptive" your dog is.


Exactly - the problem is that there are a 'lot' of trainers who don't know how to deal with these sorts of situations. They're fine for basice pet obedience, showing people how to teach their dogs to sit, stay etc, but not much good when it comes to problems. Good trainers are harder to come by.

Clare&Oscar, I noticed you mentioned gundog classes, and while he's old enough to start, you really need good basic obedience to start gundog work - ie 100% recall, walking to heel off lead, sit, stay etc, and all with distractions so I don't think it would be any good for you at the moment. A good trainer though will be able to help.


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> Keep your wig on, dear. There's only one person shouting on here and it isn't me. Is there a single smiley you didn't use in that post?
> 
> Tantrum? Erm, no. Not me. Maybe you need to take a few moments and compose yourself. It would certainly improve your punctuation and make your posts easier to read.
> 
> Anyway... no, there won't be a treat in front of any agility dog's nose in the ring, because food isn't allowed. A lot of agility dogs are rewarded with toys, anyway, rather than food - remember, the DOG chooses what motivates it most.
> 
> And I am not saying that an agility dog won't get a toy reward at the end of the round. I am an advocate of REWARD BASED TRAINING. The clue is there...
> 
> Why do you have such a problem with rewarding a dog, anyway? Did you never get many house points at school?


I am pleased to say I have a full head of hair. What you dont glean from that post is to stop using other members ideas and applying them to me, but you miss the point ut:


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> There you go again I have never said it is wrong
> I have said there are alternative and easier methods to get a dog to obey. If a handler cant assert themselves over a dog - and has to resort to bribery - then in my view they shouldnt have a dog. Im an neither right or wrong - it is my opinion and on that is supported widely if not by this thread.


You've said there are easier methods but you won't say exactly what they are 

Again, you confuse bribery with reward.

It is impossible to take you seriously


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> Do calm down James. You're in danger of becoming a foamer





Colliepoodle said:


> Oh hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
> 
> Oh you really are a bit of a prima donna, aren't you? You "will not have it"??
> 
> LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!
> 
> Priceless...
> 
> What are you going to do - slap the screen?!


ever heard the phrase "Empty ships make a lot of noise"?  


Colliepoodle said:


> Erm.... nah. I think I'll carry on. Watching you getting increasingly hysterical and bitchy - not to mention proving with every word you type that you couldn't train ivy up a wall - is amusing me greatly.


----------



## Clare&Oscar

I am struggling to find a good trainer that maybe has experience with the breed in this area. It needs to be fairly local as Oscar has an aversion to car travel and I can't do long journeys yet. I live in Allbrook, Nr. Eastleigh if anyone knows of a good trainer?


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> There you go again I have never said it is wrong
> I have said there are alternative and easier methods to get a dog to obey. If a handler cant assert themselves over a dog - and has to resort to bribery - then in my view they shouldnt have a dog. Im an neither right or wrong - it is my opinion and on that is supported widely if not by this thread.


So what are these easier methods? Please tell as one of mine is a right challenge and im willing to try anything, aslong as it doesnt involve being physical with him.
If this method is so wonderful, why are you keeping it all to yourself?

I dont bribe my dogs, i reward them. Phew, im allowed to own mine.


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## Dundee

> If a handler cant assert themselves over a dog - and has to resort to bribery - then in my view they shouldnt have a dog.


Rewarding and bribery are not the same thing and you don't have to assert yourself over a dog to get a well trained dog.

When mine is 150yards in front of me looking for a blind and I blow my stop whistle there is b****r all I can do about asserting myself from 150 yards away. She stops because through her training she knows that I will redirect her onto that retrieve far quicker than if she has to hunt around for it herself - and that retrieve is her reward.


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## Colliepoodle

> ever heard the phrase "Empty ships make a lot of noise"?


No, I haven't ever heard that particular phrase. It wouldn't make sense.

I have, however, heard the phrase "Empty VESSELS make most noise" - "vessels" in the context of the phrase not meaning ships, but containers.


----------



## james1

Nicci said:


> James I've noticed more and more over the time I have been back on here that on your threads, and on your posts, if people don't agree with you, you start being nasty with your tongue in cheek innuendo's, can I ask why ?
> 
> The OP has come on here and asked for advice and you are guilty of turning it into a slanging match, if you can't post without the snide comments, can you do us all a favour and not post at all?
> 
> You've demonstrated you know very little at all about training any dog and I for one question you on why you chose to own a dog? I find the "Some of us shouldn't own a dog" insulting and the more and more you post you are insulting decent members of the forum.


there comes a certain point when i have repeated myself and repeated myself, to have members use other peoples ideas and apply it to what I am supposed to have said . I am not going to have an argument over something I havent said now am I - I am trying to spell it out that simply because members on here sound the best thing since sliced bread.... my methods do not need treats so they might do well to consider them. But no, I have to hear chat about me being a trainer, me training non working dogs, me not reading dog psychology, me not competing in events, me having no more than 2 dogs, me not having won FTCH ....... it doesnt really add up, seen as you can go to any show and there will be treats on tap. If a dog was under control it will not need treats. I cannot say it any other way but it appears once again that I have to
I think its either a guilty or sore spot that so many people use treats on here and they dont like being told otherwise, so have to use as rediclas an example to try to take it off topic.


----------



## Dundee

> Allbrook, Nr. Eastleigh


Is that Eastleigh in Hampshire? If so there is a very good training school that trains at several venues around the Southampton area. I can't for the life of me remember the name but will dig around and try to find it.


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> there comes a certain point when i have repeated myself and repeated myself, to have members use other peoples ideas and apply it to what I am supposed to have said . I am not going to have an argument over something I havent said now am I - I am trying to spell it out that simply because members on here sound the best thing since sliced bread.... my methods do not need treats so they might do well to consider them. But no, I have to hear chat about me being a trainer, me training non working dogs, me not reading dog psychology, me not competing in events, me having no more than 2 dogs, me not having won FTCH ....... it doesnt really add up, seen as you can go to any show and there will be treats on tap. If a dog was under control it will not need treats. I cannot say it any other way but it appears once again that I have to
> I think its either a guilty or sore spot that so many people use treats on here and they dont like being told otherwise, so have to use as rediclas an example to try to take it off topic.


Rediclas? Is that an English word?

You don't know what you're talking about James, and you know it. You won't put your money where your mouth is and outline your methods; all we hear is that your methods are better.

Tell us, do, how you would teach a "sit". In detail. After all, you're very articulate lol. I'm sure it wouldn't take you more than 3 minutes to type out.


----------



## Guest

People always get personal!


----------



## Colliepoodle

.... and you're basically saying "All those people who compete, who take their dogs to shows and PROVE time after time that their dogs are under perfect control are actually wrong. Whereas I, who have never trained a non-working breed and have no credentials when it comes to training, am a far more effective trainer".

Do you HONESTLY not realise how arrogant and idiotic that makes you sound?!   

You know who you remind me of - one of the crap auditionees on "X Factor", when Simon Cowell tells them they are tone deaf and they stand there and tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about 

Yep, you're the dog forum equivalent of the Chicken Man


----------



## james1

Dundee said:


> Blimey, I've not read through all this , but as the subject turned to gundogs thought I'd just add.....
> I have gundogs and always use treats as puppies. You won't see older dogs being given treats (except when at home  ), because once you have reached a certain stage, the retrieve becomes the 'reward'. My labs wouldn't take a treat if they were waiting for a retrieve (they'd spit it out) as the retrieve is much more important to them than a treat.
> 
> All dogs need a reward to motivate them - what that reward is will depend on the individual dog - it could be treats, it could be a toy, it could be praise, but dogs don't work for nothing.


I have never been able to get my head around giving a treat to a dog for playing. A retrieve isnt testing - it is play, so I dont know why or how you would issue a treat. Its mouth will be full so once it is released praise is all thats needed (the you issue is meant generally not personally btw)

Ive never used a treat in a retrieve and he does fine. Dogs needing extra motivation to perform are too easily sent down the route of treat training which is my point. It is not necessary - the owner should know what gets the dog motivated - treats are just to simple an option for me. Lazy ( again as a general - not aimed at you)

This is my point throughout this thread.


----------



## bucksmum

james1 said:


> there comes a certain point when i have repeated myself and repeated myself, to have members use other peoples ideas and apply it to what I am supposed to have said . I am not going to have an argument over something I havent said now am I - I am trying to spell it out that simply because members on here sound the best thing since sliced bread.... my methods do not need treats so they might do well to consider them. But no, I have to hear chat about me being a trainer, me training non working dogs, me not reading dog psychology, me not competing in events, me having no more than 2 dogs, me not having won FTCH ....... it doesnt really add up, seen as you can go to any show and there will be treats on tap. If a dog was under control it will not need treats. I cannot say it any other way but it appears once again that I have to
> I think its either a guilty or sore spot that so many people use treats on here and they dont like being told otherwise, so have to use as rediclas an example to try to take it off topic.


Have you noticed everybody he's forgotten the bit that everybody is now saying he's NEVER TRAINED A DOG APART FROM A SIX MONTH OLD PUP AND A DOG HE INHERITED FULLY TRAINED.


----------



## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> That pretty much sums up what I've been saying. However, James, it seems, has developed a method whereby dogs do things "just because", with no reward whatsoever!


do you see what I mean by making up assumptions and taking what other people say as that being what ive said.!!????

I have never said you dont use a reward - I have said that you dont need to treat as a reward.

Big yourself up somemore pls - its becoming a bore


----------



## Nonnie

james1 said:


> I have never been able to get my head around giving a treat to a dog for playing. A retrieve isnt testing - it is play, so I dont know why or how you would issue a treat. Its mouth will be full so once it is released praise is all thats needed (the you issue is meant generally not personally btw)
> 
> Ive never used a treat in a retrieve and he does fine. Dogs needing extra motivation to perform are too easily sent down the route of treat training which is my point. It is not necessary - the owner should know what gets the dog motivated - treats are just to simple an option for me. Lazy ( again as a general - not aimed at you)
> 
> This is my point throughout this thread.


So what about a dog that is motivated by nothing? I have one that loved to run off, jump up and bite sleeves, and generally found doing his own thing far more exciting. He wasnt in the slightest interested in toys or praise. So what would you do? He's a Staffie, he has no job or goal. Why would he want to listen to me, what would he get out of it?


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> I have never been able to get my head around giving a treat to a dog for playing. A retrieve isnt testing - it is play, so I dont know why or how you would issue a treat. Its mouth will be full so once it is released praise is all thats needed (the you issue is meant generally not personally btw)
> 
> Ive never used a treat in a retrieve and he does fine. Dogs needing extra motivation to perform are too easily sent down the route of treat training which is my point. It is not necessary - the owner should know what gets the dog motivated - treats are just to simple an option for me. Lazy ( again as a general - not aimed at you)
> 
> This is my point throughout this thread.





> The owner should know what gets the dog motivated


Now you're getting the idea! Different dogs view different things as motivators, as we've been saying all along. Some prefer treats, some prefer toys, some like praise or the opportunity to do what they like best.

Food, being a primary reinforcer/motivator, is just one (very effective) method of reward.

Put simply - if you use ANY sort of reward in training, then you are a reward-based trainer. If you don't use the thing that the DOG considers most rewarding, then you are a less effective reward-based trainer


----------



## bucksmum

Colliepoodle said:


> .... and you're basically saying "All those people who compete, who take their dogs to shows and PROVE time after time that their dogs are under perfect control are actually wrong. Whereas I, who have never trained a non-working breed and have no credentials when it comes to training, am a far more effective trainer".
> 
> Do you HONESTLY not realise how arrogant and idiotic that makes you sound?!
> 
> You know who you remind me of - one of the crap auditionees on "X Factor", when Simon Cowell tells them they are tone deaf and they stand there and tell him he doesn't know what he's talking about
> 
> Yep, you're the dog forum equivalent of the Chicken Man


Spot on


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> do you see what I mean by making up assumptions and taking what other people say as that being what ive said.!!????
> 
> I have never said you dont use a reward - I have said that you dont need to treat as a reward.
> 
> Big yourself up somemore pls - its becoming a bore


So you DO use reward. Thought so


----------



## bucksmum

Nonnie said:


> So what about a dog that is motivated by nothing? I have one that loved to run off, jump up and bite sleeves, and generally found doing his own thing far more exciting. He wasnt in the slightest interested in toys or praise. So what would you do? He's a Staffie, he has no job or goal. Why would he want to listen to me, what would he get out of it?


Just giving your post a bump Nonnie as your questions seem to get convieniently ignored.


----------



## james1

bucksmum said:


> Thankyou Dundee,you have put the case for gundog work excellently.I wish i had your way with words. I have not answered James as i have now realised that having NEVER trained a dog before he doesn't have the experience so it's pointless.
> 
> Also Dundee you having working gundogs and us having trialing champions and gundogs that work 5 days a week during season can you see where on earth he is coming from saying you must not touch a gundog pup round the head area .No James please have the manners not to reply with your nonsense,this is just a matter i would like to explain as it's something i feel very strongly about that ALL pups should see your hand as friends and be willing to come to hand with a retrieve or without.
> 
> Guys i think when James has maybe trained his pup he can come back and lecture us all then,but know we all know he had a ready READY TRAINED DOG his arguement is completely over.


I have never said you do not pet them or that your hands arent friends......... I have said that you dont pet a dog at 8weeks of age as they are just developing and they are as much getting used to you as you are them.
I am giving my opinion that treats do not need to be used to condition a dog ....... something which a lot of trainers and a lot of this forum employs. If you use treats well done, personally all your experience shows nothing about handling a dog if you have to feed it everytime it does something well it get food. It is an old and lazy method. 
Would you like to pretend i am something or I have said something more than I have again? If you cant take on ideas fine but dont try to rubbish my posts as they are entrely reasonable - it is simply that you do not know how to work a dog without treats. And yes - I just said work.


----------



## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> I have never said you do not pet them or that your hands arent friends......... I have said that you dont pet a dog at 8weeks of age as they are just developing and they are as much getting used to you as you are them.
> I am giving my opinion that treats do not need to be used to condition a dog ....... something which a lot of trainers and a lot of this forum employs. If you use treats well done, personally all your experience shows nothing about handling a dog if you have to feed it everytime it does something well it get food. It is an old and lazy method.
> Would you like to pretend i am something or I have said something more than I have again? If you cant take on ideas fine but dont try to rubbish my posts as they are entrely reasonable - it is simply that you do not know how to work a dog without treats. And yes - I just said work.


Reward is reward. Why would you use a reward which is less effective?

James you clearly lack understanding of how dogs learn and what motivates them - not to mention constantly confusing bribery and reward.


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## Nonnie

bucksmum said:


> Just giving your post a bump Nonnie as your questions seem to get convieniently ignored.


I have noticed that. He seems to concentrate mostly on those people that have working breeds, which are focused and goal orientated.


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## kazschow

Can I ask what age your lively springer pup is James?


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## Guest

James you might want to advise on this thread,as it's an ESS 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/55841-aggression-towards-one-other-dog.html


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## kazschow

Nonnie said:


> I have noticed that. He seems to concentrate mostly on those people that have working breeds, which are focused and goal orientated.


I'd be very interested to know how he would go about training my VERY stubborn chows! Chows being so famed for their trainability LOL


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## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> You've said there are easier methods but you won't say exactly what they are
> 
> Again, you confuse bribery with reward.
> 
> It is impossible to take you seriously


how many times would you like me to say it - find a trainer that doesnt use treats. 
I do not confuse bribery and reward, food is food a dog doesnt know the difference between bribery and reward it is the ower who thinks they are rewarding it when it is simply a bribe. 
There is no difference in treat training: the dog gets a bribe for coming back well - the owner gives the dog a reward for coming back well. Its not haaard


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## bucksmum

james1 said:


> I have never said you do not pet them or that your hands arent friends......... I have said that you dont pet a dog at 8weeks of age as they are just developing and they are as much getting used to you as you are them.
> I am giving my opinion that treats do not need to be used to condition a dog ....... something which a lot of trainers and a lot of this forum employs. If you use treats well done, personally all your experience shows nothing about handling a dog if you have to feed it everytime it does something well it get food. It is an old and lazy method.
> Would you like to pretend i am something or I have said something more than I have again? If you cant take on ideas fine but dont try to rubbish my posts as they are entrely reasonable - it is simply that you do not know how to work a dog without treats. And yes - I just said work.


As i thought,this guy has no manners as well as no knowledge of training as he has a READY TRAINED DOG trained by somebody else


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## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> how many times would you like me to say it - find a trainer that doesnt use treats.
> I do not confuse bribery and reward, food is food a dog doesnt know the difference between bribery and reward it is the ower who thinks they are rewarding it when it is simply a bribe.
> There is no difference in treat training: the dog gets a bribe for coming back well - the owner gives the dog a reward for coming back well. Its not haaard


But I'm asking YOU.

How do YOU, personally, teach YOUR dog to "sit"?

It's not haaard...


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## kazschow

james1 said:


> how many times would you like me to say it - find a trainer that doesnt use treats.
> I do not confuse bribery and reward, food is food a dog doesnt know the difference between bribery and reward it is the ower who thinks they are rewarding it when it is simply a bribe.
> There is no difference in treat training: the dog gets a bribe for coming back well - the owner gives the dog a reward for coming back well. Its not haaard


Is this in all honesty how you percieve reward based training, or are you just being contentious? I've not read this whole thread.... so how do you train? What tools do you use, as eveyone uses a tool of some form, be that reward, punishment, praise etc


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## james1

Dundee said:


> Rewarding and bribery are not the same thing and you don't have to assert yourself over a dog to get a well trained dog.
> 
> When mine is 150yards in front of me looking for a blind and I blow my stop whistle there is b****r all I can do about asserting myself from 150 yards away. She stops because through her training she knows that I will redirect her onto that retrieve far quicker than if she has to hunt around for it herself - and that retrieve is her reward.


And is the dog is thinking - ill get a big fat treat if i do this. NO it isnt!!! which is my entire point! crikey! It is thinking; my owner wants me to get this - I want to get this - so ill get it. Do you see my point? 
bribe/reward there is no difference - you dog performs as you ask it to.
simples.


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## Nonnie

james1 said:


> how many times would you like me to say it - find a trainer that doesnt use treats.
> I do not confuse bribery and reward, food is food a dog doesnt know the difference between bribery and reward it is the ower who thinks they are rewarding it when it is simply a bribe.
> There is no difference in treat training: the dog gets a bribe for coming back well - the owner gives the dog a reward for coming back well. Its not haaard


Why do you always avoid answering me? Why cant you explain how to train a dog that isnt motivated by praise, retrieving or toys?

Is it because you cant?


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## bucksmum

Colliepoodle said:


> But I'm asking YOU.
> 
> How do YOU, personally, teach YOUR dog to "sit"?
> 
> It's not haaard...


He hasn't thats just it.He has a dog trained by somebody else and a six month old pup that if you go back through his posts he has admitted buggers off across the fields and won't come back til it's ready.:wink5:


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## james1

Colliepoodle said:


> So you DO use reward. Thought so


you just waste peoples time for a job dont you - you havent read a thing i have wrote instead you have used other peoples ideas and confused them for mine


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## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> And is the dog is thinking - ill get a big fat treat if i do this. NO it isnt!!! which is my entire point! crikey! It is thinking; my owner wants me to get this - I want to get this - so ill get it. Do you see my point?
> bribe/reward there is no difference - you dog performs as you ask it to.
> simples.


Again you are proving that you know little about how dogs learn.

The whole point about conditioning is that behaviour becomes automatic with little "thinking" involved - at least where the dog is concerned.

This is why a dog with a high prey/chase drive can be trained to recall away from a fleeing rabbit or deer though positive, reward based training.

Otherwise it would, by your logic, be "thinking" - "I am chasing a rabbit. What fun! But my owner is calling me away.... but I'm not hungry right now and chasing this rabbit is SUCH fun... I think I will carry on chasing the rabbit". A dog conditioned properly obeys the recall (or emergency stop/down) instantly because of positive associations and because (if done correctly) he has never NOT obeyed.


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## bucksmum

Nonnie said:


> Why do you always avoid answering me? Why cant you explain how to train a dog that isnt motivated by praise, retrieving or toys?
> 
> Is it because you cant?


Please answer Noonie's question.........if you can


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## kazschow

bucksmum said:


> He hasn't thats just it.He has a dog trained by somebody else and a six month old pup that if you go back through his posts he has admitted buggers off across the fields and won't come back til it's ready.:wink5:


I'd be very interested to see how the six month old pup does when it hits it's full adolescence!!! What training methods were used with the pup initially, does anyone know? I take it it's been gundog trained?


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## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> you just waste peoples time for a job dont you - you havent read a thing i have wrote instead you have used other peoples ideas and confused them for mine


No, I read every word. It is YOU who is confused. You say it is OK to use reward, but seem to have a "thing" about using food.


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## james1

Nonnie said:


> I have noticed that. He seems to concentrate mostly on those people that have working breeds, which are focused and goal orientated.


and working breeds like colies get treats to do agility !

your point?

as I havent mentioned training working breeds with treats. There is only my typing what i write - other people write nonsense and you take it that i have written it. which is why this is taking so long to sink in.

i bet you still dont understand that working breeds or non working breeds arent the focus of dog training - it is the owner that needs training to have to dog do a they say. whatever the dog.


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## Colliepoodle

james1 said:


> and working breeds like colies get treats to do agility !
> 
> your point?
> 
> as I havent mentioned training working breeds with treats. There is only my typing what i write - other people write nonsense and you take it that i have written it. which is why this is taking so long to sink in.
> 
> i bet you still dont understand that working breeds or non working breeds arent the focus of dog training - it is the owner that needs training to have to dog do a they say. whatever the dog.


James - do you ever use rewards?


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## Nonnie

james1 said:


> and working breeds like colies get treats to do agility !
> 
> your point?
> 
> as I havent mentioned training working breeds with treats. There is only my typing what i write - other people write nonsense and you take it that i have written it. which is why this is taking so long to sink in.
> 
> i bet you still dont understand that working breeds or non working breeds arent the focus of dog training - it is the owner that needs training to have to dog do a they say. whatever the dog.


Why cant you answer my question then? Whats so hard about it?


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## kazschow

james1 said:


> and working breeds like colies get treats to do agility !
> 
> your point?
> 
> as I havent mentioned training working breeds with treats. There is only my typing what i write - other people write nonsense and you take it that i have written it. which is why this is taking so long to sink in.
> 
> i bet you still dont understand that working breeds or non working breeds arent the focus of dog training - it is the owner that needs training to have to dog do a they say. whatever the dog.


I think you'll find colliedog understands this premise very well, she wouldn't be moving towards competative obedience if she wasn't an effective trainier, first of course being *t**rained* to train her dogs to do it!!!


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## bucksmum

Nonnie said:


> Why cant you answer my question then? Whats so hard about it?


C'mon,please answer Noonie's question.James we are waiting.


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## ad_1980

oh god yet another 'debating' thread......


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## Dundee

> And is the dog is thinking - ill get a big fat treat if i do this. NO it isnt!!!


That's exactly what she's thinking - just in this case the big fat treat is a dummy that she can retrieve. Doesn't matter what the reward is, it doesn't have to be food, most police and service dogs are trained with toys as a reward.



> which is my entire point! crikey! It is thinking; my owner wants me to get this - I want to get this - so ill get it. Do you see my point?
> bribe/reward there is no difference - you dog performs as you ask it to.
> simples.


Well, I've just said I don't use food treats further in training because the 'retrieve' is the reward. And as nice as it would be to think that she is doing it because I want her to, I am not so naive to think that. She is doing it because to her going to retrieve the object is what she loves doing, it is what motivates her and it is her reward. And she has learnt (through training) that I by listening to me and being directed by me, she will get the 'reward' (ie dummy/bird) much more quickly. The dog performs because there is something in it for her..... a retrieve - which to her, is the most exciting, fun thing she can do.



> simples.


 I think that must be you  - you don't seem to understand what motivates a dog or the way a dog's mind works.


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## bucksmum

Dundee said:


> That's exactly what she's thinking - just in this case the big fat treat is a dummy that she can retrieve. Doesn't matter what the reward is, it doesn't have to be food, most police and service dogs are trained with toys as a reward.
> 
> Well, I've just said I don't treat further in training because the 'retrieve' is the reward. And as nice as it would be to think that she is doing it because I want her to, I am not so naive to think that. She is doing it because to her going to retrieve the object is what she loves doing, it is what motivates her and it is her reward. The dog performs because there is something in it for her..... a retrieve - which to her, is the most exciting, fun thing she can do.
> 
> I think that must be you  - you don't seem to understand what motivates a dog or the way a dog's mind works.


That is because he has NEVER trained a dog and the majority of posters have trained thier dogs from pups so his so called knowledge is NOT backed up by experience.


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## Vicki

james1 said:


> I have said there are alternative and easier methods to get a dog to obey.


Yes, you have said this repeatedly. But could you please be more specific and explain to me (us) exactly what these methods are? It's an easy enough request. You could start by answering Colliepoodle's question.


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## Vicki

james1 said:


> how many times would you like me to say it - find a trainer that doesnt use treats.
> I do not confuse bribery and reward, food is food a dog doesnt know the difference between bribery and reward it is the ower who thinks they are rewarding it when it is simply a bribe.
> There is no difference in treat training: the dog gets a bribe for coming back well - the owner gives the dog a reward for coming back well. Its not haaard


Yes, you do confuse bribery and reward. Sure, food is food, but the difference is when it is presented. If it's presented _before_ the dog performs a behaviour it's a bribe, but if it's presented _after_ the dog performs a behaviour it's a reward.


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## Colliepoodle

Vicki said:


> Yes, you have said this repeatedly. But could you please be more specific and explain to me (us) exactly what these methods are? It's an easy enough request. You could start by answering Colliepoodle's question.


I don't think James is going to give us a straight answer.

He is reminding me so much of an E-Collar user on another board. Totally blinkered, this person pooh-poohed the idea of positive, reward-based training, insisting that the dog "should work for you, not reward". Of course he was totally missing the point that his dog did NOT work for him - it worked to AVOID the stim of the E-Collar.

Dogs work for two things - to gain good things and to avoid bad things. To pretend that your dog obeys you "just because it should" shows a complete lack of understanding of how dogs learn, and is living in fairyland


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## kazschow

Colliepoodle said:


> I don't think James is going to give us a straight answer.
> 
> He is reminding me so much of an E-Collar user on another board. Totally blinkered, this person pooh-poohed the idea of positive, reward-based training, insisting that the dog "should work for you, not reward". Of course he was totally missing the point that his dog did NOT work for him - it worked to AVOID the stim of the E-Collar.
> 
> Dogs work for two things - to gain good things and to avoid bad things. To pretend that your dog obeys you "just because it should" shows a complete lack of understanding of how dogs learn, and is living in fairyland


Couldn't agree more....


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## Dundee

> If it's presented before the dog performs a behaviour it's a bribe,


Just to be pedantic  if it's presented before the dog performs it's a 'lure' rather than a bribe, but I fear the merits of using a 'lure' to james1 may be lost.


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## Vicki

Colliepoodle said:


> I don't think James is going to give us a straight answer.
> 
> He is reminding me so much of an E-Collar user on another board. Totally blinkered, this person pooh-poohed the idea of positive, reward-based training, insisting that the dog "should work for you, not reward". Of course he was totally missing the point that his dog did NOT work for him - it worked to AVOID the stim of the E-Collar.
> 
> Dogs work for two things - to gain good things and to avoid bad things. To pretend that your dog obeys you "just because it should" shows a complete lack of understanding of how dogs learn, and is living in fairyland


I think you're right, he will not give us a straight answer. If he could he would have done so a long time ago. I just thought I should give him one more chance to prove himself.


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## Colliepoodle

Dundee said:


> Just to be pedantic  if it's presented before the dog performs it's a 'lure' rather than a bribe, but I fear the merits of using a 'lure' to james1 may be lost.


I agree


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## Nonnie

I feel like i shall forever live life in the dark 

James just wont enlighten us all to this amazing training method he has. I guess i shall have to stick to using treats, and be a terribly lazy dog owner.


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## Vicki

Dundee said:


> Just to be pedantic  if it's presented before the dog performs it's a 'lure' rather than a bribe, but I fear the merits of using a 'lure' to james1 may be lost.


English is not my native language, which might explain if I sometimes use the wrong words or incorrect grammar. But thank you for correcting me. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to improve my English.


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## Colliepoodle

Nonnie said:


> I feel like i shall forever live life in the dark
> 
> James just wont enlighten us all to this amazing training method he has. I guess i shall have to stick to using treats, and be a terribly lazy dog owner.


James is reluctant to outline his training methods because either he DOES use reward, or he uses compulsion, or he uses an E-Collar.

He twists and turns like a twisty turny thing


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## Colliepoodle

Vicki said:


> English is not my native language, which might explain if I sometimes use the wrong words or incorrect grammar. But thank you for correcting me. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to improve my English.


You do just fine as far as I can tell, Vicki - I don't think Nonnie was having a dig at you


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## Nonnie

Colliepoodle said:


> You do just fine as far as I can tell, Vicki - I don't think Nonnie was having a dig at you


Wait what?

I think Dundee was having a dig at James


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## Dundee

> English is not my native language, which might explain if I sometimes use the wrong words or incorrect grammar. But thank you for correcting me. One of the reasons I joined this forum was to improve my English.


Sorry, that was me and I certainly wasn't having a dig at you :blushing: apologies if it came across that way.

Your English is exemplary and I would never have known you were not a native speaker.


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## Colliepoodle

Nonnie said:


> Wait what?
> 
> I think Dundee was having a dig at James


Sorry - yes, that's who/what I meant


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## Guest

Nonnie said:


> I feel like i shall forever live life in the dark
> 
> James just wont enlighten us all to this amazing training method he has. I guess i shall have to stick to using treats, and be a terribly lazy dog owner.


Me and you both plus the other's on the forum.

I have trained all my dogs with treats,as you know our breed can be extremely stubborn and head strong,if treats work then I really don't see a problem.

I always carry treats with me when out and about however it is very rare I use them with my boy,I still use them with my bitch because of her problem with other dogs.If this makes me lazy then so be it.I would rather associate nice things with dogs approaching her.

I would rather take advice from those in my breed than from someone who clearly does not understand how dogs learn,the way in which dogs think and he calls himself an expert yet despite been asked numerous times from different members to explain,he can't - Why ?
Perhaps it's because he has no knowlege and prefer's to baffle us with bulls**t :smilewinkgrin:


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## bucksmum

Nonnie said:


> I feel like i shall forever live life in the dark
> 
> James just wont enlighten us all to this amazing training method he has. I guess i shall have to stick to using treats, and be a terribly lazy dog owner.


I think the reason he cannot answer your question is because he doesn't have clue.The reason he doesn't have a clue is because somebody else trained the only adult dog he has and his pup sounds like it is completely out of control.
Just another interesting point.James keeps on about using toys,jumping up and down ,waving your arms about etc etc,but he has not mentioned the most effective tool that all top handlers use and that is tone of voice.


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## tashi

closed for moderating


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