# Please help



## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

My bitch had her temp drop yesterday at 7.15am and lost some fluids this mornin 24 hours later it was quite mucousy and she was licking the area I waited 2 hours but no pup so took her to vet and they done X-ray and revealed a whopping 10 pups they have gave her the injection to help her start contracting but nothin seem to be happening that was at 1pm today. Y ain't it working she still not pushing or contracting any help will be great thankyou really concerned now


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2015)

What does the vet say?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

What day of her pregnancy is this?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Any progress?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Roo85 said:


> My bitch had her temp drop yesterday at 7.15am and lost some fluids this mornin 24 hours later it was quite mucousy and she was licking the area I waited 2 hours but no pup so took her to vet and they done X-ray and revealed a whopping 10 pups they have gave her the injection to help her start contracting but nothin seem to be happening that was at 1pm today. Y ain't it working she still not pushing or contracting any help will be great thankyou really concerned now


First stage of labour should follow 24 hours after temperature drop. There is something called uterine inertia where the uterus just doesn't start to contract at all, this can happen at the start or even after some pups have been born. Did he give her oxytocin, I'm guessing that was probably what he gave her, bit if there is still no contractions and its still not progressing get on to them again now, its possible that she may need a caesarean section. Uterine inertia happened to a friend of mine and nothing happened at all after the temp drop. If you leave it and that's what has happened and you are not quick enough you can loose the pups or Mum aswell.

Another cause can be too large pups, or pups that are positioned incorrectly, but if there are no signs of contraction at all it could possibly be uterine inertia.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

Hi all sorry to have taken so long to reply we have had nothing but trouble with ruby, sled dog hotel you were spot on she had 2 injections to help her contract but it didn't work they done x-Ray and puppy was in correct position but mum just wasn't pushing. They counted 10 pups on x-Ray and took her in for c- section as injection wasn't working. We had a phone call 1and half hours later and had the news mum and pups were doing fine ( all 17 of them) lol we got home with the advice of vets to keep trying pups on mum as she didn't have a lot of milk so was hand feeding. In the process of all this she was intrigued from the noise comin from box so let her have a sniff and before we knew it she lunged and bit the pup, puncturing its lung. We sadly lost the pup on way to vets. so me and my husband are raising 16 pups. Absolute mayhem


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Roo85 said:


> Hi all sorry to have taken so long to reply we have had nothing but trouble with ruby, sled dog hotel you were spot on she had 2 injections to help her contract but it didn't work they done x-Ray and puppy was in correct position but mum just wasn't pushing. They counted 10 pups on x-Ray and took her in for c- section as injection wasn't working. We had a phone call 1and half hours later and had the news mum and pups were doing fine ( all 17 of them) lol we got home with the advice of vets to keep trying pups on mum as she didn't have a lot of milk so was hand feeding. In the process of all this she was intrigued from the noise comin from box so let her have a sniff and before we knew it she lunged and bit the pup, puncturing its lung. We sadly lost the pup on way to vets. so me and my husband are raising 16 pups. Absolute mayhem


Well, this has turned out very badly for you.

Sadly, things can and do go very wrong when breeding, as you've discovered, to your cost.

I wish you the best of luck raising such a large litter. It may be worth asking at your vet if they could help with potentially tracing a foster mum for some of them.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

she has had best care and such an amazing vet that has been so understanding. She had to have another op today as she split some stitches and had to have things put back inside. Such an awful sight vet also advised us to have her spayed as she had to open her up again (which we agreed) really feeling for her just so sad that she can't bond with her puppy's and be a mum to them but we will do our best and hopefully they will all survive don't think I could cope with losing another pup. Mum is doing great considering she has had 2 invasive surgerys in last 24hours.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Roo85 said:


> Hi all sorry to have taken so long to reply we have had nothing but trouble with ruby, sled dog hotel you were spot on she had 2 injections to help her contract but it didn't work they done x-Ray and puppy was in correct position but mum just wasn't pushing. They counted 10 pups on x-Ray and took her in for c- section as injection wasn't working. We had a phone call 1and half hours later and had the news mum and pups were doing fine ( all 17 of them) lol we got home with the advice of vets to keep trying pups on mum as she didn't have a lot of milk so was hand feeding. In the process of all this she was intrigued from the noise comin from box so let her have a sniff and before we knew it she lunged and bit the pup, puncturing its lung. We sadly lost the pup on way to vets. so me and my husband are raising 16 pups. Absolute mayhem


So sorry that she lost one of the puppies and doesn't seem to be able or want to feed them. 
Really the vet should have given the injections and kept a watch on her, to see if the oxytocin did the trick not just assume it might in all honesty.

If she went from nothing happening being anaesthetised and then just puppies "appearing" then she wouldn't have had all the natural stimulus of the process, and the normal sight, smell, and caring for the puppies as they are being born that naturally stimulates the bonding process. If she was still groggy and had any levels of pain still, then dogs can become snappy and reactive, especially in light of there being no natural usual connection to the puppies.

A lot can depend on how the puppies are introduced to the Mum too. Normally a good way of doing it is to let her see and smell the towels that the puppies are placed into and stimulated with when they are delivered, it will contain all the smells of her, the smell of the birth fluids and also the puppies themselves, and it can help make a connection to some of the things that would have happened during a normal birth. The puppies too shouldn't be washed or cleaned with anything that will remove the birth process smells or make them smell artificial either.

I know that during the natural whelping process natural oxytocin should be contiunously let down, which helps with the milk being let down too amongst other things it does, and in caesareans that are planned it doesn't always happen or is slow to happen.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Best of luck rearing the pups, and sorry it went so badly for you.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Best of luck, what an amazing amount of pups - what breed are they. It is still possible the bitch will take to the pups if you get someone to hold her head while the pups suckle. Once they smell of her milk she is more likely to take to them.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Roo85 said:


> Hi all sorry to have taken so long to reply we have had nothing but trouble with ruby, sled dog hotel you were spot on she had 2 injections to help her contract but it didn't work they done x-Ray and puppy was in correct position but mum just wasn't pushing. They counted 10 pups on x-Ray and took her in for c- section as injection wasn't working. We had a phone call 1and half hours later and had the news mum and pups were doing fine ( all 17 of them) lol we got home with the advice of vets to keep trying pups on mum as she didn't have a lot of milk so was hand feeding. In the process of all this she was intrigued from the noise comin from box so let her have a sniff and before we knew it she lunged and bit the pup, puncturing its lung. We sadly lost the pup on way to vets. so me and my husband are raising 16 pups. Absolute mayhem


17!!!!!

My word - that's a big litter! What type of dogs are they?

She probably doesn't realise that the puppies are hers - what will being under a GA and then suddenly there are all these little squeaky things - she may even see them as a threat to the litter she probably still thinks she's carrying.

What a heart-breaking experience you have had - and a lot of work ahead of you if you need to had feed even some of them.

Another poster started a thread about breeding difficulties that ended in a caesarian, and it was suggested that a sticky thread was made to let people know just what can go wrong. So many people breed unthinkingly (not suggesting that you are one of them - you have obviously kept your vet on hand and consulted every inch of the way) - but many people think "oh - it's natural, the dog will just get on with it". They have no idea of the work, the expense and most of all, the worry and heartbreak that can be involved in breeding and raising a litter.

Wishing you the very best of luck with your pups and your poor bitch - she has been through so much.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Roo85 said:


> she has had best care and such an amazing vet that has been so understanding. She had to have another op today as she split some stitches and had to have things put back inside. Such an awful sight vet also advised us to have her spayed as she had to open her up again (which we agreed) really feeling for her just so sad that she can't bond with her puppy's and be a mum to them but we will do our best and hopefully they will all survive don't think I could cope with losing another pup. Mum is doing great considering she has had 2 invasive surgerys in last 24hours.


Blimey - she has been through it, hasn't she? You must be exhausted.

EDIT: Is that a rottie on your avatar? Is that your bitch? Big litter even for that breed.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Wow , that's a very big litter. Sounds like your poor girl has really been through the mill, bless her.
Wishing you every sucess with her and her babies, hope evrything goes well, , you are going to be in for a very busy time.
Good luck, and take care.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your kind words it means a lot. Yes that is her on my profile. Very tiring raising 16 pups and caring for 4 children but they are now part of our family for the next 8 weeks,and we will do our very best to help them survive and thrive. Can honestly say I will never willingly breed but I also couldn't leave her being treated the way she was. So anyone that reads this PLEASE leave breeding to the professionals it's not as easy as some may think!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Any updates? How are the puppies doing?


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

Hi we sadly lost all the pups they were doing great until day 3-4 then we lost one and vet said expect to lose a few more as it's such a big litter. We woke the next day to 7 dead pups so rang the vet to let them know and to make an appointment to take remaining pups down to get checked over, she said they probably have fading puppy syndrome and that it happens if the pups are not with the mum? Apparently. I've never heard of it but there we go. She said there's no point in bringing them down as I won't be able to tell you much more just keep feeding little and often every 1 1/2 - 2 hours which we were doing. Everything seemed ok then 2 hours later when I went to do another feed they had all died. I can honestly say even though we only had them for a few days it was one of the saddest moments ever. 
I honestly can't stress enough to people that are not experienced in breeding to not do it you could find yourself in my situation no puppy's and a £2000 pound vet bill.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

That's awful, sorry all the pups passed away 

How is mum doing? is she home from the vets yet, must be awful for her after giving birth to such a large litter and two large surgeries, I'm sure she'll be happy to be home and feel safe again.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2015)

How absolutely heartbreaking...


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

How awful, how is your bitch doing? I'll bet you'll be glad to get her home


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

How absolutely awful for you, you must be devastated.
Do hope your bitch is alright, she must be wondering what is happening, bless her. Wishing her a speedy recovery.
Take care.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

She's doing really well considering what she's been through she's home and settled back to normal and enjoying all the love


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

So sorry, it's awful losing them knowing there's nothing else you can do. I've lost a puppy at 7 weeks old, still with mum, just a bit quiet, went to vet, kept in and went downhill from there. Had him pts after 48 hours in intensive care with IV antibiotics, glucose, heat pad, subcut fluids and oxygen. He'd also had ultrasound, xray and exploratory surgery. That was "only" £700, but more to the point he was already a tiny personality, and over again I asked if I'd done something wrong. Vet's best guess was something like a "liver shunt", which she says they quite often manage to cope with until reach that sort of age. Really sorry for your losses, you must be hurting. Hope your girl recovers quickly with your love.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Roo85 said:


> She's doing really well considering what she's been through she's home and settled back to normal and enjoying all the love


Lovely. How's she doing today? Would be lovely to see some photos of her relaxing back at home


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

So pleased to read your girl is back home with you , and doing well, long may it continue.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

So sorry, what a horrible outcome.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

So sorry to hear the outcome all round run free babies  Glad you girl is doing well! So you all had such an awful experience


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

...How is mum doing, @Roo85 ?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Have only just seen this, I am so sorry you lost all the puppies, what a sad heart breaking experience.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

I just saw this on a Facebook group. Really hoping it isn't the same dog and that she is safe at home with the OP. Just seemed quite familiar with breed, number of puppies, fact they all died, timing etc.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

omg! poor girl. just looking at that picture of her is enough to break my heart.. 12 kg under weight  and how could anyone take her puppies and starve them to death? what sort of person treats their pet like this? she sounds like such a lovely girl too.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

OMG that just made me sick to my stomach...
What are the odds of two rottie bitches in the UK both having litters of 17 pups who all died?
Oh geez.... I don't even know what to say.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

It would be ridiculously coincidental if it wasn't the same bitch, even the dates match up 

Let's be thankful for small mercies though, at least it's a post from a rescue and not an advert on Gumtree.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just praying that it is a big co-incidence.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

More pics here:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rottie-Rehab/132353543504362?fref=ts


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> More pics here:
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Rottie-Rehab/132353543504362?fref=ts


That second photo of her sitting looks like the same dog doesn't it?


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

the op has been tagged asking after her dog so hopefully she (i'm assuming op's a she?) will come along and provide some answers.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

tattoogirl73 said:


> the op has been tagged asking after her dog so hopefully she (i'm assuming op's a she?) will come along and provide some answers.


Yes, OP is a she. What do you mean by tagging? As in this thread, or on FB?

I do hope we're all putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 22, but it does look like the same dog going by the pics on FB, not to mention the huggggge coincidences surrounding the puppies, their fates, Mum's health problems, the spay so soon after the C section, and the dates.

I hope the OP does come back and provide some answers.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Tried to have a look at the FB pics, but something's happened as I wasn't allowed to look at them, or maybe it's just me.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Siskin said:


> Tried to have a look at the FB pics, but something's happened as I wasn't allowed to look at them, or maybe it's just me.


Not just you. Maybe we need to log in to FB? I am not on FB, so tough luck?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I remember in one of her initial posts, the OP said "I would never willingly breed but couldn't leave her the way she was being treated".

I wonder if she has fostered this bitch, to see her through her pregnancy and now she has gone back to rescue?

It still wouldn't explain the pups being starved part though, apparently, they were trying to handrear them?

I hope it's a coincidence but, if so, it's a huge one.

I'm also a little baffled as to how seven of the pups all died at once, during the night, and then the remaining pups all died at the same time.

If handrear pups are fading or just not thriving, you would usually lose them gradually, not all at once.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Took a screen dump of the 2nd pic in question. This is the 2nd pic on the Rottie Rehab FB page:


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

Sweety said:


> I remember in one of her initial posts, the OP said "I would never willingly breed but couldn't leave her the way she was being treated".
> 
> I wonder if she has fostered this bitch, to see her through her pregnancy and now she has gone back to rescue?
> 
> ...


I know, I was trying to figure out if there was a way we could be misinterpreting this, that perhaps the poster is the fosterer or works for the rescue or what... I sure hope they come back and explain....


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Don't jump to conclusions, if it's not the same bitch her owner will be devastated at us turning on her on top of everything else. OP reported one bitten, others faded, Facebook report says all starved. OP reported home after 8 days, Facebook says at vet over 3 weeks. I can't open photos, not on Facebook. Likelihood of having 17 puppies slim, but, having had that number, probability of losing the lot high, given OP says she took bitch as not happy with how looked after, and Facebook bitch was starved ( or else gave her everything to her developing puppies whilst not much room in tummy for food). As a "cruelty case" I'm surprised she's available for a new home straight out of the vet - something doesn't quite seem right there, cases can go on for months. Let's give OP benefit of doubt, UK mentality is innocent until proven guilty. Just noticed bitch is for fostering, not rehoming as cruelty case. Rspca would have in their own kennels, with security, so something not quite adding up. Maybe rescue treating her ad a cruelty case, but not a "case" in legal terms, I.e.bringing a prosecution.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> Don't jump to conclusions, if it's not the same bitch her owner will be devastated at us turning on her on top of everything else. OP reported one bitten, others faded, Facebook report says all starved. OP reported home after 8 days, Facebook says at vet over 3 weeks. I can't open photos, not on Facebook. Likelihood of having 17 puppies slim, but, having had that number, probability of losing the lot high, given OP says she took bitch as not happy with how looked after, and Facebook bitch was starved ( or else gave her everything to her developing puppies whilst not much room in tummy for food). As a "cruelty case" I'm surprised she's available for a new home straight out of the vet - something doesn't quite seem right there, cases can go on for months. Let's give OP benefit of doubt, UK mentality is innocent until proven guilty. Just noticed bitch is for fostering, not rehoming as cruelty case. Rspca would have in their own kennels, with security, so something not quite adding up. Maybe rescue treating her ad a cruelty case, but not a "case" in legal terms, I.e.bringing a prosecution.


But that's what everyone's saying. We're all hoping we're jumping to conclusions, and hoping that we're misinterpreting it.

According to a Rottie forum, the average litter size is between 6 and 8. One member says s/he did have one litter of 14 once, but 17 does seem extremely unusual, so the chances of 2 Rottie bitches having litters of 17 at the same time, with the same fatal consequences for the pups, both mums being spayed 24hrs after C section?

According to the OP's first thread, her girl was allegedly rescued from a friend and at that time, the vet was saying to expect around 4 pups. How long the OP has had the Rottie is unclear, but she does say in her first thread that she didn't know the dog was pregnant until around 3rd July (a month before the OP's first thread), so she'd had her for at least 5 weeks at the time of the pups' birth. She does say that the dog was underweight when she came to live with the OP, but by how much isn't mentioned. Would a dog who was underweight really be able to carry 17 pups to term? I really don't know.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/...a-week-and-show-now-signs-of-whelming.405405/


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

I do find it interesting that spaying was not offered (or accepted?) at the time of the caesarean section - if the bitch was not intended for further breeding. And presumably as a rescue she was not?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> Don't jump to conclusions, if it's not the same bitch her owner will be devastated at us turning on her on top of everything else. OP reported one bitten, others faded, Facebook report says all starved. OP reported home after 8 days, Facebook says at vet over 3 weeks. I can't open photos, not on Facebook. Likelihood of having 17 puppies slim, but, having had that number, probability of losing the lot high, given OP says she took bitch as not happy with how looked after, and Facebook bitch was starved ( or else gave her everything to her developing puppies whilst not much room in tummy for food). As a "cruelty case" I'm surprised she's available for a new home straight out of the vet - something doesn't quite seem right there, cases can go on for months. Let's give OP benefit of doubt, UK mentality is innocent until proven guilty. Just noticed bitch is for fostering, not rehoming as cruelty case. Rspca would have in their own kennels, with security, so something not quite adding up. Maybe rescue treating her ad a cruelty case, but not a "case" in legal terms, I.e.bringing a prosecution.


I don't see anyone jumping to conclusions.

Most who have posted here have said they hope it's a coincidence and would love the OP to clarify.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> Don't jump to conclusions, if it's not the same bitch her owner will be devastated at us turning on her on top of everything else. OP reported one bitten, others faded, Facebook report says all starved. OP reported home after 8 days, Facebook says at vet over 3 weeks. I can't open photos, not on Facebook. Likelihood of having 17 puppies slim, but, having had that number, probability of losing the lot high, given OP says she took bitch as not happy with how looked after, and Facebook bitch was starved ( or else gave her everything to her developing puppies whilst not much room in tummy for food). As a "cruelty case" I'm surprised she's available for a new home straight out of the vet - something doesn't quite seem right there, cases can go on for months. Let's give OP benefit of doubt, UK mentality is innocent until proven guilty. Just noticed bitch is for fostering, not rehoming as cruelty case. Rspca would have in their own kennels, with security, so something not quite adding up. Maybe rescue treating her ad a cruelty case, but not a "case" in legal terms, I.e.bringing a prosecution.


Sorry but I think you're being very naive to think that this isn't the same dog. Two rotties with seventeen pups at the same time, all passing away? I very much doubt it. I'm just glad the poor girl is now getting the help she has been denied. If I'm wrong I'll gladly eat humble pie and apologise to the op but I don't think I am.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tattoogirl73 said:


> Sorry but I think you're being very naive to think that this isn't the same dog. Two rotties with seventeen pups at the same time, all passing away? I very much doubt it.


I think you - and Ouesi - are right. The UK is surprisingly small sometimes, and especially the rescue network.... particularly breed-specific rescue.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Gosh, how awful all round. I hope this bitch / these bitches are okay. Personally I suspect there will be some simple explanation.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> But that's what everyone's saying. We're all hoping we're jumping to conclusions, and hoping that we're misinterpreting it.
> 
> *According to a Rottie forum, the average litter size is between 6 and 8. One member says s/he did have one litter of 14 once, but 17 does seem extremely unusual, so the chances of 2 Rottie bitches having litters of 17 at the same time, with the same fatal consequences for the pups, both mums being spayed 24hrs after C section?*
> 
> ...


My first rotties were from litters of 13 and 10, one died from the first litter but remaining survived and all of the second litter survived - I didn't think it was uncommon for rotties to have litters of 10 or more pups.

Really hope its not the same dog and hope the rescue find the very best home for her soon.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

tattoogirl73 said:


> Sorry but I think you're being very naive to think that this isn't the same dog. Two rotties with seventeen pups at the same time, all passing away? I very much doubt it. I'm just glad the poor girl is now getting the help she has been denied. If I'm wrong I'll gladly eat humble pie and apologise to the op but I don't think I am.


I don't think I'm being naive in suggesting there are a few inconsistencies ( 8 days in vets or 3 weeks). And suggesting that if a bitch had 17 puppies then the chances of them all dying would actually be quite high. I once lost an entire litter of Siamese, my Queen had 12, usual litter size is 5 or 6. Imagine having a baby or twins -you wouldn't expect problems. Once they become triplets, or quads, or more, each child has had less whilst developing, they have been made"on the cheap"as had to share nutrients, and survival chances plummet. A few weeks back a car with 6 dogs crashed, and someone on this forum basically said if they were dog thieves they deserved to die. Turned out they were transporting dogs legally as part of their family business, and a young man was critically ill in hospital. All I'm saying is get more facts first.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> My first rotties were from litters of 13 and 10, one died from the first litter but remaining survived and all of the second litter survived - I didn't think it was uncommon for rotties to have litters of 10 or more pups.
> 
> Really hope its not the same dog and hope the rescue find the very best home for her soon.


I don't know from personal experience, just going on what that forum said. Don't think we're allowed to link to other forums otherwise I would, but they do seem to suggest that the average litter size is around 7.

Like I said though, people on that forum did report litters of 13 and 14 once or twice, but not 17.

And even so, like you said, 1 died out of 13 - hardly the same as all 13 (or in this case, all 17!) dying.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> I don't think I'm being naive in suggesting there are a few inconsistencies ( 8 days in vets or 3 weeks). And suggesting that if a bitch had 17 puppies then the chances of them all dying would actually be quite high. I once lost an entire litter of Siamese, my Queen had 12, usual litter size is 5 or 6. Imagine having a baby or twins -you wouldn't expect problems. Once they become triplets, or quads, or more, each child has had less whilst developing, they have been made"on the cheap"as had to share nutrients, and survival chances plummet. A few weeks back a car with 6 dogs crashed, and someone on this forum basically said if they were dog thieves they deserved to die. Turned out they were transporting dogs legally as part of their family business, and a young man was critically ill in hospital. All I'm saying is get more facts first.


Actually, statistically speaking, I'd say the bigger the litter, the more chances of at least some surviving. You might lose a few, yes, but to lose all? Even the stronger ones?

Maybe it might be more likely if they're all hand-reared and not getting the nutrients they really need from Mum (maybe that's why I've seen it recommended that the pups are "rotated" on Mum, so that they all get an equal share of the nutrients they need) but even so, hand-reared litters can and do survive.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Playing devil's advocate here, but in Post 17, OP says that she awoke "next morning" to find 7 of the then-surviving puppies dead, no mention of how they were a couple of hours previously.. 

What if she wasn't feeding them through the night? Either because she didn't know, or because of reasons more sinister?

Doesn't explain why a bitch with puppies, but not feeding them, would be 12kg underweight, though ....


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

> Statistically speaking, I'd say the bigger the litter, the more chances of at least some surviving. You might lose a few, yes, but to lose all? Even the stronger ones?


Possibly in this case, it was novice owners who tried to raise the remaining puppies (16) and found themselves out of their depth.

I wouldn't have taken on that myself... even with help. I'm surprised the vet allowed them to do do this, but perhaps they had no choice, as the puppies were the owners' property.[/QUOTE]

Maybe they found they couldn't cope with such a big ask... and the puppies didn't get enough feeds (so therefore died of starvation).


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## Darth (May 18, 2011)

I heard it was suggested to the owner to try and find a foster bitch for at least some of the puppies but the suggestion was refused, they didn't want to split the litter.

It was said the thought of how much they could make from selling the puppies was too big a draw to try and raise them all.

Of course, I don't know for sure, and it may be the owner was just out of her depth with it all and didn't realise how much it would take to hand rear pups.

Whatever the truth is behind it all its just so very sad .....


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

As far as I can remember without going over the whole thread when the OP started it, it was because temperature had dropped, there were no signs of the birth starting 24 hours later, so they had gone to the vet who gave oxytocin and sent her home, and the OP was worried nothing still wasn't happening. Next post was to say that caesarean had taken place vets said all doing well, but as mum had little milk, keep trying on mum but hand feeding, then I assume once home Mum showed and interest in the cries coming from the box, the pups or a pup was introduced for a sniff, mum lunged and bit a pup puncturing the lung, and the pup died on the way back to the vets. The Op and her OH were then hand rearing the puppies.

I don't think its entirely known fully what always causes fading puppy syndrome although there seems to be things that seem to contribute.

If Mum didn't feed the puppies at all, which from the sound of it she didn't, then for the first few days being fed naturally Mum would have been giving them colostrum, which contains all the maternal derived antibodies that help to protect them from infection, so just straight onto bottle fed they would be at high risk then normal pups from infections. Puppies have very immature immune delicate systems at the best of times.

Its also vital that pups are kept warm in those first days and weeks not too cold but also not too hot. At first they cant regulate or control their own body temperatures either. Too cold they cant digest food or even feed properly sometimes, being too cold alone can be fatal as their circulation can fail. If you don't pick up on the problem very quickly they can die quickly. Getting cold can make them more susceptible to infection and viruses, if you get them too hot that can kill them. I knew it was quite high temps but couldn't remember but on a quick check it seems 85 to 90 degrees for the first 5 days, days 7/10 80 degrees and by the end of week 4 down to 75 degrees, so pretty warm and it needs to be constant.

What, how and when you bottle feed can play a big part too, and sterility of the feeding equipment is important as it is in human babies, because bacterial infection is a killer. Keeping conditions clean and sanitary is important too, as is toileting the pups to stimulate them to go to toilet if mums not taking care of them and doing it.

Even when Mums feeding and looking after them you can still get Fading syndrome sometimes, but with hand rearing orphans or rejected puppies there can be a lot more risks still, especially if you are not sure what you are doing or didn't get the right instruction. Even something as simple as not keeping them at the right constant temperatures can sometimes be enough without anything else.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Could the bitch not been 'milked' to provide at least some colostrum/milk for each puppy? I know nothing about breeding but instinct tells me that mother's milk is the best for all mammals. And stimulating the teats can increase milk production. But maybe the op felt they had everything under control until it was too late.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Actually, statistically speaking, I'd say the bigger the litter, the more chances of at least some surviving. You might lose a few, yes, but to lose all? Even the stronger ones?
> 
> Maybe it might be more likely if they're all hand-reared and not getting the nutrients they really need from Mum (maybe that's why I've seen it recommended that the pups are "rotated" on Mum, so that they all get an equal share of the nutrients they need) but even so, hand-reared litters can and do survive.


I think we need to get facts straight before entering this kind of discussion. Might be the same dog, might not. If it is, and if OP did indeed take on a pregnant bitch who was already being poorly cared for, it would be very hard to get condition on a bitch carrying that many pups, as she would give her all to the developing puppies ( and it still not be enough), I think comments like "finally getting the help she needs" are a bit unfair based on what info we actually have (or have been told) at this point.

What I'm saying about losing all in a big litter makes sense if you think about it. Yes, you can rotate on the bitch once they are born, but you can't rotate them prior to birth, so a bitch who would normally have 8 or so puppies, or even 13, has to provide nutrients for more, so each developing puppy will get less. Also, in the OP's case, the bitch didn't accept them, so they were hand reared, so less colostrum, even if they managed to put on the puppies for a bit without them getting attacked ( one was bitten and died that way) she didn't give birth naturally so her milk wouldn't really "come in" if she wasn't either being suckled or hand milked for the puppies to have the colostrum that way.

I don't agree that statistically speaking a bigger litter means more will survive. Most single human babies, or twins survive with no extra help. Triplets often spend a few weeks in baby intensive care, and the chances of a woman having sextuplets and them surviving outside of an incubator with 24 hour care are pretty slim. Average birth weight in the UK for a single baby is 7lb 8oz for a boy and 7lb 4oz for a girl. Average birth weight for sextuplets is 2lb 8oz, these will obviously be weak babies with a very slim chance of survival indeed outside of a specialist care unit. I'd expect the same for puppies, and have seen the same in kittens. The suggestion seems to be " how can anyone kill 17 puppies", rather than " my goodness, how did they survive to term", which is a little unfair without facts. The Facebook dog is being offered for fostering straight out of the vets, doesn't fit with what I know of cruelty prosecution cases. Is it possible that the dog was thin because she was carrying 17 puppies, puppies were tiny because they didn't get enough nutrients in utero, and that although the owner has given up the dog there is no case to answer in court. "Poor starving dog who had 17 pups" is a good headline to catch people's sympathy, but maybe just look at that in a little more detail.

Of course, if it turns out the bitch was starved, puppies were taken away and starved, then I will join in the condemnation, but at the moment I'd rather hold back and see what develops. It's easier to say to a forum that people were right all along than to take back the hurt caused to a genuine animal lover who took on a pregnant bitch, paid for vet care, and had to explain the loss of the puppies to their children, who were no doubt heartbroken.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

bogdog said:


> Could the bitch not been 'milked' to provide at least some colostrum/milk for each puppy? I know nothing about breeding but instinct tells me that mother's milk is the best for all mammals. And stimulating the teats can increase milk production. But maybe the op felt they had everything under control until it was too late.


The colostrum comes in before the actual milk, the OP just said the mother didn't have very little or might not have been any without rechecking what they actually said. To be honest its one of those things that without all the info to hand or an actual conversation to find out whats gone on entirely you wont and cant know what happened. How the caesarean and introduction to the pups is done first off can play a big part as to how the bitch reacts to them and accepts them or not in the first place. I think some bitches just don't properly produce milk sometimes and I think that can sometimes be more likely when there is a caserean. The Mum by all accounts had uterine inertia where the uterus doesn't start or contract at all, even with two shots of oxytocin that often will kick start contractions nothing apparently happened.

I have read of a protocol where they treat orphaned or rejected pups or fading pups with prepared plasma which contains a form of antibodies to give protection and maybe help to fight infection. You could order the frozen fresh plasma, I hadn't heard of it before and the couple of places I did read about it were I'm pretty sure American.

According to the Op when they began to loose the pups they did ask about bringing down the remaining ones to check on them, and was told its pointless as there was nothing they could do according to the post.

As said without more information we have no idea exactly what advice and back up there were getting, or what instruction they had for complete care of the rejected pups. Maybe we will never know.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm sure my vet would never say don't bother if I had any concerns about any of my pets. They'd want assure me, if nothing wrong was found, that I was unnecessarily worried. But maybe I just have fantastic vets and assume all vets are the same?

Maybe the whole event is a lot of misunderstanding or not the whole truths?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> Might be the same dog, might not.


I think the odds of it NOT being the same dog are pretty much slim to none. A litter of 17 in the same breed with the same result - 17 dead puppies? Yeah, I'll eat my hat if it's not the same dog.

That said, @Roo85 may have a perfectly valid explanation for why the FB rescue site post. It may be that she actually works for that rescue and was the foster home, and the post on FB is just a big mix-up. That I will await for more info. But I think it is definitely the same dog. It's just too specific and unusual for it to be TWO rottie bitches with 17 dead pups in the same time period.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

bogdog said:


> I'm sure my vet would never say don't bother if I had any concerns about any of my pets. They'd want assure me, if nothing wrong was found, that I was unnecessarily worried. But maybe I just have fantastic vets and assume all vets are the same?
> 
> Maybe the whole event is a lot of misunderstanding or not the whole truths?


 Its easy to speculate especially when you only have limited information or no one comes back to clarify anything.
I didn't post to speculate if it was the same bitch or not, although there are a lot of similarities and its a big coincidence in breed/time number of pups etc so it certainly would make anyone wonder. The posts were purely to illustrate what can go wrong and why pups can sometimes die and also sometimes it doesn't take that much to cause it whoever the bitch is and what ever situation. Like I said chances are we will never know exactly what happened and if there were one and the same for sure.
The thread at least is another that can illustrate what can go wrong if you decide to breed your bitch, and especially what can happen if you don't know what your doing.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Well as the OP has liked the above post it shouldn't be long before we hopefully get some clarification


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

I really do hope it's either a huge coincidence and a different bitch, or the same bitch but the OP is the fosterer and there's been some wires crossed/it's poor wording with the rescue with regards to the puppies starving.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

I think it's disgusting how all of you ( a few exceptions) have been on here with all your crap with out knowing the full details. So to put all those straight, yes it is her and it was the hardest decision made after being told by vet it will probably be best to have her re-homed as she was concerned for my kids after the incident with the puppy. the vet didn't spay her at the time of c-section because she had lost a lot of blood and she wasn't comfortable doing it, we had to take ruby bk the next day as she had tore a stitch which the vet then said "it's best if we spay her as I've got to put her out to re-do the stitch anyway" me and my husband followed our vets advice and lead as we felt they new best being medically trained and all that. We were then told we could take her home and the puppy for us to gradually introduce them. Me and my husband both said is it to early for them to come home and there reply was no we will show you how to feed them and everything else. And as for the puppies we were advised by vets to feed 1ml every 2 hours which me and my husband were doing. We were up feeding the puppies through the night and at the time of them not doing so great my concern was not to inform you lot it was to ring my vet and get them checked to which they replied " your be lucky to save any of them because they have not had mothers milk" which was not our decision it was our vets she told us ruby didn't have any milk as it was a side effect of having a c-section. It's the first I've heard of this I rang the vets every day to see how she was but the vet was too busy to talk to me and never rang us back after they had agreed they would contact us as soon as ruby had found a home but as soon as we signed her over they have avoided us completely. We will contacting our solicitor Monday morning and Pursuing slander as what they have written it total lies. probably a publicity thing to get more customers. its disgusting


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

Oh and Ruby's weight was 42kg when we got her. We had her weighed the day after getting her. She was on 4 meals a day which the vets also told us to do to try and get some weight on her.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Am I understanding correctly that you gave the dog up to the rescue after all the puppies had died?
And this was under the advice of your vet?


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

We signed ruby over to the vets after the first 7 died as the vet was concerned with Ruby's behaviour changing with not being able to relax hearing puppies upstairs which is how she popped a stitch she was concerned that it could turn her nasty and me and my husband didn't want that for her.we thought it would of been better for her to stay at vets to recover which we were paying 200 a day for her to stay there hence such a high vet bill. All what we want was what was best for ruby it broke our hearts to sign her over and don't forget we tried helping ruby have a better home as she was ill treated when we got her never knew she was pregnant when we took her on


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Roo85 said:


> I think it's disgusting how all of you ( a few exceptions) have been on here with all your crap with out knowing the full details. So to put all those straight, yes it is her and it was the hardest decision made after being told by vet it will probably be best to have her re-homed as she was concerned for my kids after the incident with the puppy. the vet didn't spay her at the time of c-section because she had lost a lot of blood and she wasn't comfortable doing it, we had to take ruby bk the next day as she had tore a stitch which the vet then said "it's best if we spay her as I've got to put her out to re-do the stitch anyway" me and my husband followed our vets advice and lead as we felt they new best being medically trained and all that. We were then told we could take her home and the puppy for us to gradually introduce them. Me and my husband both said is it to early for them to come home and there reply was no we will show you how to feed them and everything else. And as for the puppies we were advised by vets to feed 1ml every 2 hours which me and my husband were doing. We were up feeding the puppies through the night and at the time of them not doing so great my concern was not to inform you lot it was to ring my vet and get them checked to which they replied " your be lucky to save any of them because they have not had mothers milk" which was not our decision it was our vets she told us ruby didn't have any milk as it was a side effect of having a c-section. It's the first I've heard of this I rang the vets every day to see how she was but the vet was too busy to talk to me and never rang us back after they had agreed they would contact us as soon as ruby had found a home but as soon as we signed her over they have avoided us completely. We will contacting our solicitor Monday morning and Pursuing slander as what they have written it total lies. probably a publicity thing to get more customers. its disgusting


I think the advice and the offhand attitude you received from your vet is appalling, if that's what actually happened. It seems strange that they gave you such dodgy advice and then "advised" you to hand the dog over because of the loss of the puppies.  I understand that your first concern at losing the puppies would be to contact the vet and not reply on here - it's the responsible thing to do, but with such a flippant attitude from the vet, I think I'd have been thinking about consulting another vet. 



Roo85 said:


> Oh and Ruby's weight was 42kg when we got her. We had her weighed the day after getting her. She was on 4 meals a day which the vets also told us to do to try and get some weight on her.


If she's supposed to be about 50kg, that's 8kg underweight. So she lost a further 4kg from the time you got her, to the time you handed her over to rescue? What did the vet say about the continued weight loss, even on 4 meals a day? Was she on puppy food? I seem to recall a lot of members advising pregnant bitches and new mothers to be on a high quality puppy food because they need the extra protein. Did your vet advise you of this?

So sorry if t sounds like I'm judging you. I'm not. In fact, your whole thread makes me glad I'm not a breeder.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Roo85 said:


> We signed ruby over to the vets after the first 7 died as the vet was concerned with Ruby's behaviour changing with not being able to relax hearing puppies upstairs which is how she popped a stitch she was concerned that it could turn her nasty and me and my husband didn't want that for her.we thought it would of been better for her to stay at vets to recover which we were paying 200 a day for her to stay there hence such a high vet bill. All what we want was what was best for ruby it broke our hearts to sign her over and don't forget we tried helping ruby have a better home as she was ill treated when we got her never knew she was pregnant when we took her on


Oh okay, so you signed her over to the vet because you couldn't afford the care basically? Not a judgement, this happens more often than you would think...
At what point did you figure out she was pregnant? 
And did you report the people who were originally mistreating her?


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

Yes she was on puppy food and was always eating the vets wanted to do blood tests when we first got her if she hadn't gained any weight in a week but when we took her bk the following wk she had gained a slight amount so they said there was no need to do the tests as they wasn't concerned because she had put some weight on and as long as she kept gaining weight she will be fine which she was we took her every week to have her weight checked and to make sure she was doing ok.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

I know that sounds bad but yes we could not afford to keep her there we have also got for children as well. We found out she was pregnant aabout a month after having her. Yes we did report the people because they had other pets but I never heard anything back and the people never answered the phone from the first night we got her we tried ringing for something and they never answered


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Honestly, if you couldn’t afford her care and having her with kids worries you, then it’s probably for the best that she’s in the hands of a rescue now isn’t it?
Once you turn a dog over, you basically lose having a say in what happens to the dog. 

I think I’d leave this one as lesson learned. It sounds like you just took on more than you could handle and ended up with the worst case scenario.
I think ideally this dog should have gone to rescue from the get go. A good rescue would have the resources and knowledge to whelp a litter of this size, enough volunteers on hand to make sure all the puppies are getting the attention they need, and even perhaps access to a foster bitch. Even if the foster bitch was not lactating, it helps.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

I know all this now and i just kept hoping everything would be ok and it wasn't. I deeply regret some of my decisions like you say taking her straight to rspca but we didn't know she was carrying when we got her and fell deeply in love with her. All I wanted to do was help her I'm sorry if I have annoyed people but we honestly thought the care and advise from our vets was the right thing to do. Cannot believe the are saying we took the puppies away from ruby they were in with the cats when we arrived ruby wasn't even in the same room as her baby's!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Roo85 said:


> Cannot believe the are saying we took the puppies away from ruby they were in with the cats when we arrived ruby wasn't even in the same room as her baby's!


Have you contacted the rescue to let them know their story doesn't coincide with yours?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Roo85 said:


> I know all this now and i just kept hoping everything would be ok and it wasn't. I deeply regret some of my decisions like you say taking her straight to rspca but we didn't know she was carrying when we got her and fell deeply in love with her. All I wanted to do was help her I'm sorry if I have annoyed people but we honestly thought the care and advise from our vets was the right thing to do. Cannot believe the are saying we took the puppies away from ruby they were in with the cats when we arrived ruby wasn't even in the same room as her baby's!


I wouldn't worry too much about apologising for annoying people. The priority was Ruby and her pups, now the sole priority is Ruby, and whether the likes of Catherine like it or not, at least she's now getting the care that she needs. That's no reflection on you, just a fact.

It's very brave of you to come forward after reading what you must have in this thread, and give your side of the story.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

I will be finding out Monday where she is and will not be leaving it there trust me. Me and my husband are soon angry


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Roo85 said:


> I will be finding out Monday where she is and will not be leaving it there trust me. Me and my husband are soon angry


But you signed the bitch over to the vets? And then came on here and claimed she was home?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Roo85 said:


> I will be finding out Monday where she is and will not be leaving it there trust me. Me and my husband are soon angry


What are you angry about?
The bitch is in good hands, she is being taken care of, and when she is ready she will be adopted out to a carefully vetted home. What more could you hope for?
Sounds to me like this is all for the best.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Didn't the bitch go home with the puppies but then went to the vets for restitching/spaying the next day? And then stayed at the vets because of the vets' concerns for the safety of the children?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Roo85 said:


> Yes she was on puppy food and was always eating the vets wanted to do blood tests when we first got her if she hadn't gained any weight in a week but when we took her bk the following wk she had gained a slight amount so they said there was no need to do the tests as they wasn't concerned because she had put some weight on and as long as she kept gaining weight she will be fine which she was we took her every week to have her weight checked and to make sure she was doing ok.


So if she was putting on weight and having weekly check ups/weigh ins with the vet, how did she lose a further 4kg while in your care? Especially if she was constantly eating?

And as MerlinsMum points out above, you're now saying you signed her over to the vet after the first 7 pups died, when before you said that she was home, safe and enjoying all the love with you after the remaining puppies died.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Okay, the thread has gotten long, so I took the liberty of putting the whole story (as condensed as I could get it) in one place.



Roo85 said:


> My bitch had her temp drop yesterday at 7.15am and lost some fluids this mornin 24 hours later it was quite mucousy and she was licking the area I waited 2 hours but no pup so took her to vet and they done X-ray and revealed a whopping 10 pups they have gave her the injection to help her start contracting but nothin seem to be happening that was at 1pm today. Y ain't it working she still not pushing or contracting any help will be great thankyou really concerned now





Roo85 said:


> she had 2 injections .... took her in for c- section .... mum and pups were doing fine ( all 17 of them) lol we got home with the advice of vets to keep trying pups on mum as she didn't have a lot of milk so was hand feeding. In the process of all this she was intrigued from the noise comin from box so let her have a sniff and before we knew it she lunged and bit the pup, puncturing its lung. We sadly lost the pup on way to vets. so me and my husband are raising 16 pups. Absolute mayhem





Roo85 said:


> She had to have another op today as she split some stitches and had to have things put back inside. ...vet also advised us to have her spayed ...Mum is doing great considering she has had 2 invasive surgerys in last 24hours.





Roo85 said:


> Hi we sadly lost all the pups they were doing great until day 3-4 then we lost one and vet said expect to lose a few more as it's such a big litter. *We woke the next day to 7 dead pups* so rang the vet to let them know and to make an appointment to take remaining pups down to get checked over, she said they probably have fading puppy syndrome and that it happens if the pups are not with the mum? ...She said there's no point in bringing them down ... just keep feeding little and often every 1 1/2 - 2 hours which we were doing. ...2 hours later when I went to do another feed they had all died.





Roo85 said:


> She's doing really well considering what she's been through *she's home and settled back to normal *and enjoying all the love





Roo85 said:


> it was the hardest decision made after being told by vet it will probably be best to have her re-homed as *she was concerned for my kids after the incident with the puppy.* the vet didn't spay her at the time of c-section because she had lost a lot of blood and she wasn't comfortable doing it, we had to take ruby bk the next day as she had tore a stitch which the vet then said "it's best if we spay her as I've got to put her out to re-do the stitch anyway" me and my husband followed our vets advice and lead as we felt they new best being medically trained and all that. We were then told we could take her home and the puppy for us to gradually introduce them. Me and my husband both said is it to early for them to come home and there reply was no we will show you how to feed them and everything else. And as for the puppies we were advised by vets to feed 1ml every 2 hours which me and my husband were doing. We were up feeding the puppies through the night and at the time of them not doing so great my concern was not to inform you lot it was to ring my vet and get them checked to which they replied " your be lucky to save any of them because they have not had mothers milk" which was not our decision it was our vets she told us ruby didn't have any milk as it was a side effect of having a c-section. It's the first I've heard of this *I rang the vets every day to see how she was* but the vet was too busy to talk to me and never rang us back after they had agreed they would contact us as soon as ruby had found a home but as soon as we signed her over they have avoided us completely. We will contacting our solicitor Monday morning and Pursuing slander as what they have written it total lies. probably a publicity thing to get more customers. its disgusting





Roo85 said:


> *We signed ruby over to the vets after the first 7 died *as the vet was concerned with Ruby's behaviour changing with not being able to relax hearing puppies upstairs which is how she popped a stitch she was concerned that it could turn her nasty and me and my husband didn't want that for her.we thought it would of been better for her to stay at vets to recover which we were paying 200 a day for her to stay there hence such a high vet bill. All what we want was what was best for ruby it broke our hearts to sign her over and don't forget we tried helping ruby have a better home as she was ill treated when we got her never knew she was pregnant when we took her on


In one post it sounds like she never came home after the spay, but then it sounds like she didn't come home after the first 7 puppies died.
Either way, the story is convoluted, and IF the rescue didn't get it right when they posted Ruby's pictures, it wouldn't surprise me why they didn't get it right. I don't know that they're making anything up frankly... It sounds like a total clusterfluck, and really all that matters is that Ruby is now in good hands, she is being nursed back to health and she will eventually find her forever home.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

And this is all Rottie Rehab said about the dog:


> URGENT FOSTER HOME NEEDED.......
> Can anyone offer this stunning girl a caring foster home please. She is a cruelty case who has just come out of the vets after being there for over 3 weeks. This poor girl has had a litter of 17 puppies, they were taken away from her & they all died having been starved to death so she has had to go through the grief, the lactating, being so poorly after giving birth she had to be spayed only 24 hours later.....all this whilst being 12kgs underweight.
> 
> She is 2 years old with the most stunning temperament, she's a big girl so needs space as when she's gained weight & muscle she will be over 50kgs. This gorgeous girl is just starting to play with toys & loves playing. She's very chilled although is very scared of raised voices & sudden movements. She needs a loving home where someone isn't out all day as she loves cuddles & reassurance. We don't want her living with children, small dogs or cats at the moment purely because she's had screaming kids running around & climbing all over her & antagonised by small dogs. This girl does like to chase anything that runs like small dogs, cats etc.......she doesn't hurt them but she's a young, big , gangly girl & tends to jump on them & sqwish them. She is with us as her new home fell through but we have too many dogs for her to really come out of herself & for her own personality to develop further.
> ...


The three weeks time frame is about right based on what @Roo85 has posted.
The quote is long, if you click on the fading part of the text the whole thing shows up.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I think it's interesting that the vets were contacting Rottweiler rescues all over the UK trying to get a space for this girl, before_ any_ of the puppies had died. According to the vets, the owner had signed over the bitch to them, but refused to sign over any of the puppies.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Well this was a strange read. Poor Ruby, thank god for rescues.

Hopefully she will find her forever home soon, she's beautiful.

To the OP why you mad? You can be annoyed the story doesn't match up with yours but frankly I'd be thanking them for helping her. it's the best place for Ruby and they're doing the best thing for her, it;s heartbreaking she lost all of her babies, she deserves the best now. 

Once a dog is signed over to them you get no control over what happens.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

No words really! :'( Run Free babies!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

MerlinsMum said:


> I think it's interesting that the vets were contacting Rottweiler rescues all over the UK trying to get a space for this girl, before_ any_ of the puppies had died. According to the vets, the owner had signed over the bitch to them, but refused to sign over any of the puppies.


How do you know this? Just curious if I missed something in the thread or on FB - not questioning you


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> How do you know this? Just curious if I missed something in the thread or on FB - not questioning you


I said in an earlier post the rescue world - breed rescue especially - in the UK, is a small place. I'm on the FB page of a Rottie rescue that the vet had tried to find a space with.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

I guess we'll just have to wait for Monday - to see what the solicitor says?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

MerlinsMum said:


> I said in an earlier post the rescue world - breed rescue especially - in the UK, is a small place. I'm on the FB page of a Rottie rescue that the vet had tried to find a space with.


Gotcha...
I figured it was something like that.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I have no clue why the OP should be "angry". She signed the bitch over to the vet. That, in itself, is unusual and suggests that the vet could have had very real concerns about her welfare.

It is ill advised to make assumptions yes, BUT, If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's probably a duck.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

Listen you can all say what you like. We signed ruby over 4 days after she had them and they then started looking for a new home I'm angry because what has been posted on fb is lies we tried our best to try and get ruby back to health she was thin when we got her. I came on here for advice and support if I had done something wrong y would I come bk on here to inform you all of what was happening. I wouldn't would I? So you can all think what you like but suggest you need to go bk to school because ur adding up is shit! 2+2=4 not 20 dumbasses. I don't need to justify my self to any of you anyway so go give some other person a hard time!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Roo85 said:


> Listen you can all say what you like. We signed ruby over 4 days after she had them and they then started looking for a new home I'm angry because what has been posted on fb is lies we tried our best to try and get ruby back to health she was thin when we got her. I came on here for advice and support if I had done something wrong y would I come bk on here to inform you all of what was happening. I wouldn't would I? So you can all think what you like but suggest you need to go bk to school because ur adding up is shit! 2+2=4 not 20 dumbasses. I don't need to justify my self to any of you anyway so go give some other person a hard time!


You did get advice and support and sympathy when you first posted on here.

What has happened subsequently has, understandably, raised some concerns and you can be as abusive as you like, people will draw their own conclusions.


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## Roo85 (Aug 3, 2015)

Don't understand why any of you need to know the ins and outs have you not got lives or is it that boring you need to be on here causing trouble bored of you all now night!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Roo85 said:


> Listen you can all say what you like. We signed ruby over 4 days after she had them and they then started looking for a new home I'm angry because what has been posted on fb is lies we tried our best to try and get ruby back to health she was thin when we got her. I came on here for advice and support if I had done something wrong y would I come bk on here to inform you all of what was happening. I wouldn't would I? So you can all think what you like but suggest you need to go bk to school because ur adding up is shit! 2+2=4 not 20 dumbasses. I don't need to justify my self to any of you anyway so go give some other person a hard time!


As @Sweety just said, you got plenty of good advice and lots of support. 
That you're on here now being abusive and considering the expense of a solicitor after having to give up a dog for lack of money speaks volumes.

We happen to care about dogs, and I for one care about what happens to this poor girl. 
If it is true that you did not properly care for her, and her puppies, I hope you will think long and hard before taking on the responsibility of another pet....


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Roo85 said:


> I know all this now and i just kept hoping everything would be ok and it wasn't. I deeply regret some of my decisions like you say *taking her straight to rspca* but we didn't know she was carrying when we got her and fell deeply in love with her. All I wanted to do was help her I'm sorry if I have annoyed people but we honestly thought the care and advise from our vets was the right thing to do. Cannot believe the are saying we took the puppies away from ruby they were in with the cats when we arrived ruby wasn't even in the same room as her baby's!


Why didn't you take her when you found out she was pregnant?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

oh dear, what a sad story and what a mess for rescue to have to sort out. Just want to point out though that 50 kg would be bloody big for a rottie bitch - Indie is big and she is 38 kg, my previous bitches have been 30 kg (she was dinky though) and 40 kg. One of my males was 45 kg so only one out of my 5 rotties has been 50 kg and he was a big male with a huge head so not sure why the rescue are saying she will be 50 kg.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

rocco33 said:


> Why didn't you take her when you found out she was pregnant?


Duh... Puppie$$$$$

BTW I did contact Rottie Rehab and alert them to this thread. I figured they had a right to know given they're being discussed as well. They're not concerned, they're only concerned with the dog's well being - that too speaks volumes doesn't it?


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

Roo85 said:


> Listen you can all say what you like. We signed ruby over 4 days after she had them and they then started looking for a new home I'm angry because what has been posted on fb is lies we tried our best to try and get ruby back to health she was thin when we got her. I came on here for advice and support if I had done something wrong y would I come bk on here to inform you all of what was happening. I wouldn't would I? So you can all think what you like but suggest you need to go bk to school because ur adding up is shit! 2+2=4 not 20 dumbasses. I don't need to justify my self to any of you anyway so go give some other person a hard time!


no you don't have to justify your sen to anyone but maybe you need to think why the vets and the rescue have said what they have. don't waste time being angry if what they have said is untrue, it won't get you anywhere. and if it is true, you've got to live with it.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I think it's interesting that the vets were contacting Rottweiler rescues all over the UK trying to get a space for this girl, before_ any_ of the puppies had died. According to the vets, the owner had signed over the bitch to them, but refused to sign over any of the puppies.


That sounds a more likely scenario. There was always something odd about this and what they OP was saying the vet was recommending. Not to mention that hand raising a standard litter is a full time job, much less a litter of 17. OP and her OH would have been hand feeding non stop so why did they leave them and say the found them dead in the morning and then the others after they'd leave them 2 hours. It doesn't add up to me. Doesn't sound like they were feeding them properly so not surprised by the claim they were starved. New pups will go downhill very quickly. I suspect the potential ££££ of 17 pups was too much to surrender the pups to rescue. So sad


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

One thing that's puzzled me is the quantity of feed - 1ml per puppy doesn't sound enough. If the pups were on the mum they'd feed until full. Isn't what hand feeding should be doing too rather than a set amount?


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

rocco33 said:


> That sounds a more likely scenario. There was always something odd about this and what they OP was saying the vet was recommending. Not to mention that hand raising a standard litter is a full time job, much less a litter of 17. OP and her OH would have been hand feeding non stop so why did they leave them and say the found them dead in the morning and then the others after they'd leave them 2 hours. It doesn't add up to me. Doesn't sound like they were feeding them properly so not surprised by the claim they were starved. New pups will go downhill very quickly. I suspect the potential ££££ of 17 pups was too much to surrender the pups to rescue. So sad


Yup... Anyone with just a passing familiarity with hand feeding newborns knows that there is no way only two people could be hand feeding 17 pups. And even if two people were managing it, there would not be a 2 hour window anywhere. Plus there were 4 kids in the house?

Sorry, but this whole thing makes me really angry. And for the OP to have the audacity to come on here acting like the hurt party. Ugh....


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

Just read through this thread. What a sad and shocking story. At least the bitch is in the best possible place for her now though and will hopefully find her forever home soon.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Roo85 said:


> Don't understand why any of you need to know the ins and outs have you not got lives or is it that boring you need to be on here causing trouble bored of you all now night!


You're quite right. Of course you are. We do have lives and I, for one, had ... If not "better" things to be doing with my time than trying to pick apart a thread full of contradictions, then certainly "more important" things.

You see, it's just I'd rather challenge potential animal abusers on this forum, giving them a chance to get their views across and actually listening to their side of the story, asking relevant questions and trying to paint a picture in my own head (especially knowing that the animal in question is safe and well and receiving the care she needs) than think and write about the different types of abuse that humans inflict on each other. Even if that IS for my NVQ lvl 3 diploma.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Roo85 said:


> Listen you can all say what you like. We signed ruby over 4 days after she had them and they then started looking for a new home I'm angry because what has been posted on fb is lies


And you weren't exactly truthful on here yourself, were you? Saying Ruby was back with you and happy to be home, when in fact she was still at the vets, and a rescue place being sought for her?

Forgive my for being cynical, but I think most people will believe the vets' version of events, not yours. Which did include a refusal to hand any of the puppies over to people much more experienced in hand-rearing, and with a lot more time, than yourselves. If only you had, then at least some of them could still have been alive now.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

What a depressing read


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

MerlinsMum said:


> Which did include a refusal to hand any of the puppies over to people much more experienced in hand-rearing, and with a lot more time, than yourselves.


Oh geez.... WTF... It really was all about the money wasn't it? :Rage:Rage:Rage:Rage:Rage


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

MerlinsMum said:


> Which did include a refusal to hand any of the puppies over to people much more experienced in hand-rearing, and with a lot more time, than yourselves.


God, there have been some upsetting threads on PF before but this is on another level entirely. I could cry, I really could.


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## XemzX (Dec 23, 2013)

SingingWhippet said:


> God, there have been some upsetting threads on PF before but this is on another level entirely. I could cry, I really could.


Me too! I really wish I hadn't read this thread.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

OP; We advised you the best we could and asked for updates because we genuinely cared about Ruby and her pups. We gave you the benefit of the doubt when it became apparent that you weren't exactly being truthful with us. I feel sorry for Catherine the most because she fought your corner and tried to see the good in you - above and beyond any and everyone else.

You repaid that by insulting our intelligence with contradictions and outright lies. You are talking about contacting a solicitor for slander, when you have committed slander yourself towards the vet. You blatantly lied about where Ruby was after the tragic deaths of her puppies ... And now it turns out that you turned down the advice and assistance of people far more knowledgeable than you who could have saved some (if not all) of the pups...

And you have the nerve to start hurling verbal abuse at us when you're rumbled?

Poor, poor puppies!  I could cry for them! I really could, but at least they are beyond your money-grabbing hands, and their mother is in a much better place.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Roo85 said:


> Don't understand why any of you need to know the ins and outs have you not got lives or is it that boring you need to be on here causing trouble bored of you all now night!


You came on here with a story, which many of us followed with compassion and sympathy, not to mention all the pats on the back for doing such an amazingly good thing for this poor dogs and her huge litter of babies.

We took time out of our lives to advise (as you did ask us for advice).

And now it seems that you were somewhat economical with the truth. Well sorry, hun - just desserts are the order of the day.... and it you don't like the taste, just remember it's you who ordered them.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Those poor wee babies! Have you any idea, how it feels to be starved to death? Shocking!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about apologising for annoying people. The priority was Ruby and her pups, now the sole priority is Ruby, and whether the likes of Catherine like it or not, at least she's now getting the care that she needs. That's no reflection on you, just a fact.
> 
> It's very brave of you to come forward after reading what you must have in this thread, and give your side of the story.


Please read to end of post, finishes on different note to start:

Not sure why you think I wouldn't be happy at Ruby getting the care she needs, I spent enough time working with rescue dogs and cruelty cases because I thought I could make a difference, and it was a cause I believed in. I didn't say she wasn't getting care at the rescue, or that the OP could give her better care, I just saying "finally getting the care she needs" might be unfair to the OP until all facts were known. Since when has taking a step back and waiting for information before reaching a conclusion been the wrong thing to do?

Taking on a dog is a huge commitment, taking on a pregnant, underweight one even more so. The OP took on more than they could manage, but I'm not convinced that getting her into rescue immediately would have made a difference to the outcome for the puppies, 17 is a very big litter to be "made" properly. That's assuming she wasn't spayed/aborted at the time of going into rescue, which would of course have ended the lives of the puppies at that stage. There's no guarantee there would even be a space for her, we had dogs on the waiting list to come in for literally months, sad to say the best way to get a dog into our kennels was to tie it to the railings for a member of staff to find, or to be brought in by an inspector. Dogs from "the public" had a long wait for their space to become available. Giving birth to 17 puppies, then their afterbirths, plus blood loss would account for the bitch still being very underweight even after being fed good quality food, the rescue needs to be very sure of their facts before accusing someone of starving their dog.

Oh dear, had typed thus far and thought I'd really better read the rest of the posts before posting this myself, have got in enough trouble recently saying the wrong thing. Well, I don't know anything about rottie pups, but Siamese kittens get approx. 2ml per feed, so why the vet would say 1ml I don't know at all. And yes, 2 hours between feeds, but that's for each puppy (identified in some way so fed in the right order), by the time you've done all of them, even with help, it's pretty much time to grab a coffee and start again. I'm not convinced they would have survived even with expert care for the reasons previously stated, but sounds like this was far from ideal. I do believe ignorance rather than intent, though sadlly the outcome was the same for the puppies.

I am glad Ruby is in good hands and being taken care of, I know how hard rescues work: it can be a thankless task for very poor salary and plenty of goodwill from volunteers. I'll continue to try to see both sides and give the benefit of the doubt where possible, even though Devil's Advocate isn't always popular. But there are days when seeing good is very difficult, and today is one of them.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2015)

Considering what has come to light and all the inconsistencies in the OP’s story, I’m not convinced they didn’t know the bitch was pregnant when they acquired her. Call me a cynic, but it would not surprise me in the least if they bought her intending to breed or hoping she was already bred. I also find it extremely fishy that it wasn’t until she was spayed that they agreed to surrender her.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Considering what has come to light and all the inconsistencies in the OP's story, I'm not convinced they didn't know the bitch was pregnant when they acquired her. Call me a cynic, but it would not surprise me in the least if they bought her intending to breed or hoping she was already bred. I also find it extremely fishy that it wasn't until she was spayed that they agreed to surrender her.


Didn't she say somewhere that she acquired her about a month before realising the dog was pregnant? So a very convenient 2 months before the birth of the puppies....?

Could be wrong though.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> Please read to end of post, finishes on different note to start:
> 
> Not sure why you think I wouldn't be happy at Ruby getting the care she needs, I spent enough time working with rescue dogs and cruelty cases because I thought I could make a difference, and it was a cause I believed in. I didn't say she wasn't getting care at the rescue, or that the OP could give her better care, I just saying "finally getting the care she needs" might be unfair to the OP until all facts were known. Since when has taking a step back and waiting for information before reaching a conclusion been the wrong thing to do?
> 
> ...


Admirable! And FWIW, I also tried to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.

I've been accused of starving Milly by a vet. I took her in because I could see she was getting far too thin and had an upset tummy that just wasn't settling. Vet weighed her, said she was 5kg underweight and tried to say I wasn't feeding her enough. She then proceeded to give Milly half a tin of Chappie in front of me, which Milly dutifully demolished.

She then gave Mill the other half, which, because she had actually been fed only an hour or so before, Mill turned her nose up at.

I switched her to Butcher's Big and Meaty and supplemented her meals with a Kong and within about 3 weeks the weight was back on...

The reason she was so underweight in the first place? It was a cold March that year and what with the diarrhoea and being a lurcher, she lost the weight quickly.

So yeah, I was prepared to give OP the benefit of the doubt, but with what has come to light since...


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Yup... *Anyone with just a passing familiarity with hand feeding newborns knows that there is no way only two people could be hand feeding 17 pups*. And even if two people were managing it, there would not be a 2 hour window anywhere. Plus there were 4 kids in the house?
> 
> Sorry, but this whole thing makes me really angry. And for the OP to have the audacity to come on here acting like the hurt party. Ugh....


It should be possible. Just before Kite had her litter, someone in the Welsh Sheepdog fb group had their bitch die after a C-section birth of 15. She successfully reared them all (kept 1) at the same time as running a farm. Full time job though, day and night.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Burrowzig said:


> It should be possible. Just before Kite had her litter, someone in the Welsh Sheepdog fb group had their bitch die after a C-section birth of 15. She successfully reared them all (kept 1) at the same time as running a farm. Full time job though, day and night.


Presumably as a farmer she had lot of experience with delivering and caring for livestock, which does not appear to be the case with the OP. And possibly had help with everything?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

bogdog said:


> Presumably as a farmer she had lot of experience with delivering and caring for livestock, which does not appear to be the case with the OP. And possibly had help with everything?


If OP didn't have help then she should have asked!! Large litters have been hand reared by mere mortals! Not knowing isn't an excuse for 17 puppies to die an awful death!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> If OP didn't have help then she should have asked!! Large litters have been hand reared by mere mortals! Not knowing isn't an excuse for 17 puppies to die an awful death!


It seems OP had offers of help and even a foster bitch and turned them down because it would mean handing over some (if not all) of the puppies.

There's usually 3 sides to every story ("yours, theirs and the truth"), but in this case, there's 4 - OP's, Vets, Rescue's AND the truth.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I've been thinking about this most of the morning. I took OP at face value - I normally do. I felt sorry for what had happened to them as well as to the bitch and pups. Now I'm disgusted as I find they held a lot of responsibility for the cause of it all going so horribly wrong - there's no excuse for not feeding the puppies properly or sending them, some or all, to a foster bitch. At least the rescue is picking up what's left of the pieces; notwithstanding that I'd expect the rescue to over-egg the pudding to some extent, and exaggerate the situation the bitch came from to help find a home (foster or for life) and aid their funding situation. The whole thing just makes me feel sick.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2015)

Burrowzig said:


> It should be possible. Just before Kite had her litter, someone in the Welsh Sheepdog fb group had their bitch die after a C-section birth of 15. She successfully reared them all (kept 1) at the same time as running a farm. Full time job though, day and night.


I know, but notice what I said right after - "And even if two people were managing it, there would not be a 2 hour window anywhere."
In one of @Roo85 posts she said "2 hours later when I went to do another feed they had all died". How were there 2 whole hours between feedings? If you're feeding 16 puppies, by the time you're done with the last of the 16 it's about time to start with the first for the next feeding. Even if you're super speedy about it and skimping on stimulating them to potty etc., you still wouldn't have 2 whole hours. Hell, I nursed preemie human twins, and in the early days I barely had time to shower, let alone 2 whole hours. And that was just 2! 
Anyway... I think it's evident that through ignorance or (I hope not) malice, the puppies were not properly cared for. It has now come to light that these people were offered help and a foster bitch? But refused it because it meant turning over some of the pups. All I can think there is that they wanted to sell the pups and turning them over meant a cut of the profits. Which makes me sick really. And makes me question other parts of the OP's story - namely the "we didn't know she was pregnant" part.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

Meezey said:


> If OP didn't have help then she should have asked!! Large litters have been hand reared by mere mortals! Not knowing isn't an excuse for 17 puppies to die an awful death!


I absolutely agree! I wasn't defending the OP just pointing out the differences between the two people with large litters to hand rear.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm not buying a thing said here from the OP to be honest. Very sad for the poor dog but good to hear she is in safe responsible hands now, and that's all I'll say on the matter.


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## Nagini (Jan 13, 2014)

haven't been on in a while , this has to be one of the most disturbing threads i have read on here in a long , long time


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