# Persian Queen and Birthing problems



## stargazerlilium (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi all,
I have just mated my chinchilla persian for the first time and I've read that sometimes new mothers have difficulty giving birth to kittens due to the shape of the heads of persian kittens in comparsion to other breeds.

Have any Persian breeders found this to be the case and if so would you have any advice on what I could do or what I should look out for.

Many thanks for any asistance.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Do you have a mentor? You really could do with one if this is your first litter. Also, are you a member of Novice Breeder Advice? It's a Yahoo group which is excellent. I breed Persians as well, and although my girl had a C section, I did a lot of reading on what to look out for.

You need to keep a close eye on her a few days before she's due. I took my girl's temp morning and night so I knew when she was going into active labour. Unfortunately, my girl didn't get past stage 1, but when active contractions start, the queen shouldn't be allowed to push constantly for more then about 30-40 minutes without production of a kitten. I had homeopathic remedies such as Caulophyllu on hand to help if needed, so it would be worth looking into this as well. Does your girl have a large or small pelvis? What size is her head and what about the boy's? This can often give an indication of how difficult/easy the birth will be, but it's an indication only. Surprises can and do happen!


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

There is always the chance of a section being required with any breed, not only persians.

Make sure you ask your vet how much it would cost for a section (both normal hours and out of hours) and have that money aside.

I didn't have a mentor when i started but i did read as much as possible, and you've made a great decision joining this forum! 

I have a persian and am friends with the lady who bred my persian and as far as i'm aware she hasn't had to have many sections, she no longer breeds persians.

Know what to look for and don't wait if you can see or feel something isn't right! Always better safe than sorry if you're not sure.

How old is your girl, any pics?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I have only ever bred one litter of persians and both parents were open type (the boy very open type indeed like something out of the 1930s) so that may not be a very good indication, I did find the mother cried out during the birth - that also happened with the Burmilla litters she had which would have had much narrower heads.

I call the vet if the girl has been actively straining for 2 hours. Some people here say that is too long but the vet giving the kittening lecture at the Supreme show said three hours. Obviously if it looks really difficult eg. mother constantly getting into the litter tray and out again, very restless and crying out then you do not wait two hours.

Liz


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Lizz, I was told not to wait the full 2 hours with a Persian if they're straining hard. They tire easily due to the increased effort to pass the large heads, and the longer you wait, the harder it will be for her to finish birthing given this extra effort.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I helped the vets I worked at years ago do 2 caesars on persians, both had been left too long and the kittens were dead, luckily they saved the mothers and spayed them at the same time, so speed is of the essence to know when it is going pear shaped - definitely speak to an experienced breeder. They do seem to have alot of problems because they are so badly deformed it makes their skulls much wider and harder for the mothers to deliver, so good advice to set aside enough money for a spay as you will most likely need it.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

carly87 said:


> Lizz, I was told not to wait the full 2 hours with a Persian if they're straining hard. They tire easily due to the increased effort to pass the large heads, and the longer you wait, the harder it will be for her to finish birthing given this extra effort.


Fair enough.

Liz


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Is this a case of breeding for type going too far? A bit like slopey backed GSDs and bulldogs? Should we not try to breed back to a better and more natural head type? Just a questions guys.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Alison, deformed is a bit of a strong word, isn't it?

Spid, I think some of the breeding that's going on these days is too extreme. The poor cats end up with more nose leather than nose, and some of the extremes aren't even bred carefully enough to ensure that they have large nostrils to keep breathing as easy as possible. Some of us are trying to breed more towards the old fashioned, open type, but unfortunately they don't do so well on the show bench, so there isn't as much demand for them which means they're bred less. Nevertheless, the heads are still big on them. 

In general, I think it's a bit unfair for folks to imply that a C section is highly likely. I was unfortunate, but then look at breeds like Bengals who have frequent C sections without having massive heads. The fact is that some cats birth easily and others don't. Persians are slightly more prone to C sections, but only slightly. Remember that they are chocolate box cats. Most well bred ones have a pelvis equally as large as the head so that they can accommodate that very thing; kittens with large heads.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Ah, okay - I wish the more traditional type would do well on the bench then to help the breed become healthier.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

carly87 said:


> Alison, deformed is a bit of a strong word, isn't it?


It was Alex who said that, not me.


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## fluffball (Jun 2, 2011)

I've recently bred my chinnie for the first time too and am just waiting now for some signs although she was a bit more loving than normal last night and actually fell asleep on the arm of the settee instead of on the window sill, I hope that's a good sign :smile5:


Forgot to say that my girl has a slightly more open face than some, she's more what I would call traditional chinnie, we bred her to another of the same face type.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

fluffball said:


> Forgot to say that my girl has a slightly more open face than some, she's more what I would call traditional chinnie, we bred her to another of the same face type.


OOOOH! Are they going to be registered? If so, seriously, I want one (would have to be active register - for my Tiffanie breeding programme)

Liz


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## fluffball (Jun 2, 2011)

yes, they'll be registered, the one we keep (hopefully a girl) will be gccf and tica reg as we'd like to do a couple of shows. The others will be just gccf reg as far as I know, at least that's the plan at the mo, still finding out how it all works.

Not really sure what to expect colourwise as even though both are white or silver chinnie, they both have a golden parent and when I counted up the 10's and 54's on the pedigrees there was quite an even split. Would that mean I can expect both chinchilla and golden persians ?


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

fluffball said:


> I've recently bred my chinnie for the first time too and am just waiting now for some signs although she was a bit more loving than normal last night and actually fell asleep on the arm of the settee instead of on the window sill, I hope that's a good sign :smile5:
> 
> Forgot to say that my girl has a slightly more open face than some, she's more what I would call traditional chinnie, we bred her to another of the same face type.


*thats exciting, when will they be due.*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

fluffball said:


> Not really sure what to expect colourwise as even though both are white or silver chinnie, they both have a golden parent and when I counted up the 10's and 54's on the pedigrees there was quite an even split. Would that mean I can expect both chinchilla and golden persians ?


You can expect 1 in 4 kittens to be golden. Of course you might only get one or two in the litter, my Chinnie girl once produced four but usually it was three. So you might well not get a golden at all.

Liz


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## fluffball (Jun 2, 2011)

Her matings were between 12-14 Aug so still very early days, hopefully this new loving nature is a sign and in the next week or so she'll roll over and show me some little pinky nipples :smile5:


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

fluffball said:


> Her matings were between 12-14 Aug so still very early days, hopefully this new loving nature is a sign and in the next week or so she'll roll over and show me some little pinky nipples :smile5:


_you wil have to make a thread and put some pictures of her on so we can see her.xx_


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## fluffball (Jun 2, 2011)

I've just added an album to my profile with a couple of photos, will have to go through my phone to see what other photos I've got of her.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

fluffball said:


> Her matings were between 12-14 Aug so still very early days, hopefully this new loving nature is a sign and in the next week or so she'll roll over and show me some little pinky nipples :smile5:


My queen was mated on the 11th-12th so we re due the same time if we're preg 

Mine has also went into 'love mode' like she did last year so i'm hopeful too.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

fluffball said:


> I've just added an album to my profile with a couple of photos, will have to go through my phone to see what other photos I've got of her.


Now that's how I like my Chinnies!

Here's my third generation Tiffanie boy who could almost pass for one, in his winter coat 









Liz


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

fluffball said:


> I've just added an album to my profile with a couple of photos, will have to go through my phone to see what other photos I've got of her.


:001_wub: she is gorgeous!


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## fluffball (Jun 2, 2011)

ooh he's lovely :smile5:

With the stud we've used having a more open face, this is the type of face I'm hoping for in the kittens.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Stunning! My persian boy has the open face too, i love it!!


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## missmoomoo (Jul 23, 2011)

fluffball said:


> ooh he's lovely :smile5:
> 
> With the stud we've used having a more open face, this is the type of face I'm hoping for in the kittens.


what a gorgeous looking cat! Is this one of yours / or stud cat used?


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## fluffball (Jun 2, 2011)

missmoomoo said:


> what a gorgeous looking cat! Is this one of yours / or stud cat used?


oh lol no, this is just a photo I found on the internet, I was trying to show the type of face I like and am hoping to get from this mating.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

fluffball said:


> I've just added an album to my profile with a couple of photos, will have to go through my phone to see what other photos I've got of her.


_shes gogreous, very pretty, it will be exciting to see what her kittens look like.x_


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh, sorry Alison! I use a screen reader to access the internet (It's a piece of software which reads text to me on screen), and for some reason, it messed up!

I do like the open faces myself. Will try and attach some pictures of mum and current kittens so that you can see this litter. Others must really like 'em too! Just have a home for my red point boy to find now.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

No problem sweetie 

OOOOOOOOOO i LOVE Tia!!! :001_tt1:


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you! She's yummy, isn't she? Not that I'm biased or anything...

But as you can see, I'm working with the open faces It's just so hard as you really have to struggle to get them to do well on the show bench against the extremes who seem to be favoured. Tia has 1 CC, but is constantly put down due to the fact that her nose doesn't have a deep enough stop. Now her little girl has a stop, so fingers crossed that she does better! I'd love to see a returnn of the doll faces on the show bench.


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## stargazerlilium (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi there,
thank you for your reply.
The owner of the stud cat whom I used said that I could contact her at any point throughout the pregnancy and the birth. She has already given me some valuable information but I'm worried because its the first time I've bred my chinnie, I used to breed Birmans and they were bulletproof. The owner of the stud cat said she never had any difficulties with her chinnie's but I'm just over anxious and want everything to go well. My chinchilla is quite small but my vet said she was in excellent health before I mated her.

Is it true that the chinnie kittens are born black? The stud cat owner told me that their white develops as the kittens get older?


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes it's true. They are born almost black, with heavy tabby markings which fade as they get older


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## stargazerlilium (Aug 22, 2011)

alisondalziel said:


> Yes it's true. They are born almost black, with heavy tabby markings which fade as they get older


How long does it normally take for the white to come in do you know? My chinchilla is white (Breed no. 10) but had a golden mother (Breed no. 54) and the stud cat I used was also a breed no. 10.

The stud cat owner feels that there is a very small chance that my queen will throw a golden kitten within the litter, she thinks all the litter will be eventually white.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I don't know how long the colour takes to develop, but as they are sold at 12-13 weeks it must have by then


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

stargazerlilium said:


> Hi there,
> Is it true that the chinnie kittens are born black? The stud cat owner told me that their white develops as the kittens get older?


I wouldn't describe it as anything like black, but certainly they will be much darker than you expect, the colour is at the tips of the hairs and as the hair grows the silver undercoat shows more and more.

Liz


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