# Bitch mated twice - help



## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

Hi - I am new to this site and very desperate! I have a English Springer Spaniel who has had one litter already. She came into season end of March and we mated her on her 9th day. She stood for the dog and achieved a tie and spend the night with him. We then went on holiday and our very kind neighbours looked after her but on the 19th day she was caught with a Border Collie and achieved a tie. I have spoken to several vets and the answers are all different. The stud has never had a failure and is a prolific breeder and she caught with him the last time having 12 puppies. What are people's thoughts on her willing to stand with another dog 19 days after her season started if she was pregant by the first dog? When she was first mated, her vulva was not that swollen and she was not bleeding that much. My friends says that in the last week she was very swollen and bleeding heavily and pitching her tail to the side. One vet has said she has probably caught with the first, the other said she would not have been interested in the second dog 10 days down the line. My options are to abort (if she is preganant) or proceed. What are other people's experiences and thoughts? I would really welcome some comments. Many thanks, Emma


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

You just cant tell im afriad, it could be either way  dont be fooled by her standing for the dog 10 days later, i left my bitch with the dogs owner for 2 weeks and she caught her on the 17th of that month then on the 28th she stood again for the dog, the dates worked out she had been caught on the 1st day she was stood (17th) and stood again 11 days later. I wouldnt want to think you aborted the litter you orginally planned


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Some bitches will stand all the way through whether fertile or not. One thing is almost certain... Is she was mated 9 days apart, it is incredibly likely that only one mating has taken, if any.... Impossible to say which male caught her at the correct time. 9 days is a little early, but nevertheless, doesn't mean that she isn't an early ovulator.
There are 2 options really: terminate the pregnancy and try again next season, or carry through to term and DNA test the puppies and risk them not being the ESS


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Hard one to call to be honest, I personally have never known a bitch to stand again so long after mating, once the time has been over, thats it dont come near me so to speak, my girl has a window from about day 10 when she is most fertile, she has mated on day 11 then allowed a mating on 13 then on 15 on day 17 the sire was still interested, but she would have no go whatsoever, turns out she must have caught on the first mating anyway.

this is a hard call, I personally would hate it if my girl produced pups from a different breed, but if this was a much planned mating that you cannot do again, you may end up aborting the correct litter.

If I am TOTALLY honest, if I was in this situation, and really had my suspicions she was pregnant to the 2nd dog, then I would have to abort, and try again at a later date.

mo


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

how experienced is your neighbour with dog breeding and mating ??

Are they sure they mated and tied ?? 

If you wasnt there to see for yourself, can you honestly say the person who witnessed the 2nd mating, definatley saw a tie and you can trust and rely on what they say they saw was infact a tie.

I have no idea on the technology of today regarding this, but can you take her for a scan and is there any developement stages or measurements etc you can so to determine the age of the unborn pups at an early enough stage to still abort if the dates are wrong ??


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

Oh - they achieved a tie alright! She couldn't seperate them and they were locked for 4 minutes after she got to them. I spoke to our vet who says there is no way in determining the state of the pregnancy until it would be too late to abort and even then it would be difficult as the vet always gives a 10 day window on due date.

My friend made a joke about springers and collies and creating a new breed - sprollies. Just googled the term on the off chance and can't believe it but there are several sites dedicated to sprollies! I will have to think about it.

It is her last chance to breed - she only comes into season once a year and next year she will be too old. So if I terminate I will get her spayed at the same time. The vet says that gives me a week and a half to decide.

I would still welcome everyone's opinion.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm not a breeder, but i would personally carry on with the pregnancy. Sprollies are lovely dogs, it's not like she mated with a strange breed. Do you know the border collie?


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## vixtory (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi hun.. i agree with Seven pets, i`d personnelly let her have the pups anyway, especially since they`d be her last ones x


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## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

i presume that your bitch and the stud are both kc reg and health tested,
and that you had homes lined up for all/most of the pups,

what do you know about the BC?
is he health tested ect, whats his tempermant like?
what sort of size is he compared to your girl?

presuming that you was going to keep one from the litter would you still want to keep one if she has been caught by the BC and do you think you would still be able to find good homes for them?

good luck in whatever you decide to do


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

It would depend on your reasons for breeding and how good your bitch is. Is she health tested, KC registered and a good example of the breed (done well either showing or working?) Do you have homes already lined up? Also, you mention she has already had a litter - did you not get anything from that litter that was good enough to keep your lines going? If not, and yes to the above, then I would go ahead and DNA test the litter. It's not cheap, but would be required - and bearing in mind you COULD possible get a whole litter of crossbreeds. If no to the above, then I wouldn't go ahead with it. It is not easy to sell pups at the moment and honestly, wouldn't be worth the risk, money and time to possibly end up with a litter you have difficulty selling.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I agree with seven pets, You could advertise them for fly ball e.t.c I imagine they would be brilliant for it. 

All i would say is make sure they go to very good homes that can deal with such a mix


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

You could end up with a litter of ESS, a litter of crossbreeds, or even a mixed litter - and the only way to be sure will be to DNA test after birth. You will have to do this before you sell them even if they all look like ESS puppies, because they could still be from the collie mating rather than the ESS mating and just looking more like ESS pups than collies. As you know there is a possibility of a cross litter, it would be dishonest to either register them or sell them as ESS puppies unless you could prove that they were by DNA testing. I think that I would tend to abort the litter and try again, if I am to be totally honest.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

My pups mum mated with a collie, and then with a staffie (she wasnt my dog) and was told she could have a mixed litter but all of the puppies are definitely half collie.

I agree, I would carry on, and if the puppies do turn out to be crosses then to advertise them for flyball etc and make sure you get people who are going to be able to deal with this cross.


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> It would depend on your reasons for breeding and how good your bitch is. Is she health tested, KC registered and a good example of the breed (done well either showing or working?) Do you have homes already lined up? Also, you mention she has already had a litter - did you not get anything from that litter that was good enough to keep your lines going? If not, and yes to the above, then I would go ahead and DNA test the litter. It's not cheap, but would be required - and bearing in mind you COULD possible get a whole litter of crossbreeds. If no to the above, then I wouldn't go ahead with it. It is not easy to sell pups at the moment and honestly, wouldn't be worth the risk, money and time to possibly end up with a litter you have difficulty selling.


She is health tested and KC registered but we only keep two dogs at a time and already have her mother. We did not intend to keep one but as the last litter went to family and friends I know we can pick up the line again through them.

My head agrees with you - my heart not so much!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Emma Barber said:


> She is health tested and KC registered but we only keep two dogs at a time and already have her mother. We did not intend to keep one but as the last litter went to family and friends I know we can pick up the line again through them.
> 
> My head agrees with you - my heart not so much!


Cant understand why you were breeding in the first place then to be honest if you had no intention of keeping a pup,?

mo


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Unfortunately you have to listen to your head most of the time when breeding. If I listened to my heart over my head when trying to revive puppies I would have probably 30 heavily brain damaged dogs living (just) with me, but my head ruled and I stopped trying to revive.

I know its a different case entirely, but use your head to make the decisions.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Unfortunately you have to listen to your head most of the time when breeding


.

I think that has to be the best bit of advice I have ever read on these forums. Of course it's an emotional time and it pulls at our heartstrings, but good breeding practices should be ruled by the head not the heart. The most deserved rep coming your way. 



> She is health tested and KC registered but we only keep two dogs at a time and already have her mother. We did not intend to keep one but as the last litter went to family and friends I know we can pick up the line again through them


In that case, I would be inclined to not go ahead with the litter. How old is she and when did she had her first litter?


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I'm not a breeder, but i would personally carry on with the pregnancy. Sprollies are lovely dogs, it's not like she mated with a strange breed. Do you know the border collie?


I do know the the Border Collie and he is good around other dogs, not skittish but is quite shy. He is a working dog and sleeps outside but seems quite affectionate. The owner has said he would be happy to talk to prospective buyers.


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> .
> 
> I think that has to be the best bit of advice I have ever read on these forums. Of course it's an emotional time and it pulls at our heartstrings, but good breeding practices should be ruled by the head not the heart. The most deserved rep coming your way.
> 
> In that case, I would be inclined to not go ahead with the litter. How old is she and when did she had her first litter?


She is 5.5 and was 3.5 when had last litter.


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

moboyd said:


> Cant understand why you were breeding in the first place then to be honest if you had no intention of keeping a pup,?
> 
> mo


We were breeding from her because so many people want her puppies (we have 10 firm buyers lined up) and because it is an amazing experience for me and my children. She is an outstanding family pet and a good gun dog with an excellent pedigree. We have her Mother as well.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Emma Barber said:


> a good gun dog with an excellent pedigree. .


I'm presuming the buyers you have waiting are interested in the excellent pedigree and want pups from this line, so I'm bringing this up again because you seem to have missed it. You do realise as a responsible breeder that you will have to have all the pups DNA tested before you register her litter as ESS's? Even if they look like ESS's, they could be collie crosses that look like an ESS - you have no way of telling which mating any resulting pups will be from other than DNA testing. You can't sell any pups she has as ESS's with any degree of honesty unless you have them DNA tested.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Well, 6.5 is quite old for a litter, but not impossible if she is fit. I'm assuming from what you say she's a working gundog so should be in good shape. Obviously it would be to old for a first litter, but as she has already had one, it may be worth thinking about breeding on her next season. It's a difficult one  9 days is a bit early, but there are a few who ovulate this early. Did you get a premate done? And how long ago was the last mating? if only in the last day or so would it be worth getting a premate to see what her progesterone levels are like? 

Realistically she's unlikely to be pregnant by both dogs if the mating was 10 days apart, but if you do decide to go ahead, then you must dna test them in order to register the ESS puppies. I don't envy you the decision but good luck.


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm presuming the buyers you have waiting are interested in the excellent pedigree and want pups from this line, so I'm bringing this up again because you seem to have missed it. You do realise as a responsible breeder that you will have to have all the pups DNA tested before you register her litter as ESS's? Even if they look like ESS's, they could be collie crosses that look like an ESS - you have no way of telling which mating any resulting pups will be from other than DNA testing. You can't sell any pups she has as ESS's with any degree of honesty unless you have them DNA tested.


Thank you - it is precisely why I am engaging in dialogue with you the experienced breeders, so that I don't miss the point and so I can make an informed decision!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Does she have biannually seasons... at 5.5 I'd terminate this one and wait to the next season, providing she is fit and healthy she will be fine for the next season, seeing as it won't be her first litter.


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## Lab-lover (Mar 31, 2008)

If it was me, I would go ahead with the pregnany and get the pups DNA tested. 

What days did you mate her before? Has she ever had a split season before? 

Unless she is a late ovulator or has split seasons then there is a higher chance the first mating was successful.


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

She only has ever had one season a year, so next year she would be getting very close to 7 which makes me feel uncomfortable.


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Does she have biannually seasons... at 5.5 I'd terminate this one and wait to the next season, providing she is fit and healthy she will be fine for the next season, seeing as it won't be her first litter.





Lab-lover said:


> If it was me, I would go ahead with the pregnany and get the pups DNA tested.
> 
> What days did you mate her before? Has she ever had a split season before?
> 
> Unless she is a late ovulator or has split seasons then there is a higher chance the first mating was successful.


Last time she was exposed to the dog on day 9/10 and 11. She had a classified miscarriage (bled for days). After 4 weeks I thought she was displaying signs of a phantom pregnancy and discussed it with the vet as I had gone in for kennel cough injection. The vet felt her and expressed surprise that she was pregnant but warned me that she would only go on to have 1 or 2 at the most because of the miscarriage. She went on to have 12 pups of which 2 died at birth. The vet reckoned she had conceived more than once in order for that to happen.

I have googled DNA testing and it comes out at about 114 pounds per pup - does that sound right?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Last time she was exposed to the dog on day 9/10 and 11.


It is quite likely that the eggs were fertilised from the two matings, but the window when eggs can be fertilised does not last for more than 5/6 days. Basically, once ovulated, the eggs take a couple of days to ripen and then, if not fertilised will die within 3-4 days. So a second mating that was 10 days later would mean it's highly unlikely that she would be pregnant by two dogs. However, just to confuse matters, the sperm can live up to 5/6 days in the bitch, so it could be that she ovulated later than days 9/10 and 11 and the sperm were just sitting there and the eggs were still viable on day 19 when caught by the BC. It's even more difficult because she is not regular. They are all different and ovulate at different times and can be different on each season, particularly as she does not come in regularly.
To be honest, if she was my bitch, with her irregular seasons and unpredictable fertility she wouldn't really be a candidate for breeding from - she could be passing those traits on, however, if she's a good working dog I can understand you want to have another litter from her.

DNA testing is not cheap - I would phone the KC for a price as you may get a discount for a whole litter, but you MUST do it if you go ahead with the pregnancy. It would be totally wrong to register them without it as you would have no way of telling from looking at them who sired them.

Also, just another thing to think about - are all those on your waiting list prepared to take a crossbreed? If they are, then I'm guessing they must be pet homes as if she's a good working dog from good lines and they are buying the pups because of that, then I cannot see anyone being happy with a crossbreed. There is no way I would by a crossbreed from an accidental mating if I was looking for a working dog. For a start, I would be buying it because of it's lines and working ability and KC registration is a must for working tests and trials. And I cannot see BC blood being any good in the working field even if they don't compete.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I feel if you have these familes lined up because you were having a litter, of ESS. may be totally dismayed if the pups turn out to be cross breeds, I too would have reservations about breeding an older bitch. and to be honest I would NEVER breed to supply a demand, I personally only breed if I want a pup myself, and have enough good families for the rest of the litter

"Quote Emma Barber,We were breeding from her because so many people want her puppies (we have 10 firm buyers lined up) *and because it is an amazing experience for me and my children.* She is an outstanding family pet and a good gun dog with an excellent pedigree. We have her Mother as well.

maybe have a read of this regarding the experience.
"THE MIRACLE OF BIRTH" Videotape

mo


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## Emma Barber (Apr 12, 2010)

moboyd said:


> I feel if you have these familes lined up because you were having a litter, of ESS. may be totally dismayed if the pups turn out to be cross breeds, I too would have reservations about breeding an older bitch. and to be honest I would NEVER breed to supply a demand, I personally only breed if I want a pup myself, and have enough good families for the rest of the litter
> 
> "Quote Emma Barber,We were breeding from her because so many people want her puppies (we have 10 firm buyers lined up) *and because it is an amazing experience for me and my children.* She is an outstanding family pet and a good gun dog with an excellent pedigree. We have her Mother as well.
> 
> ...


My children have already seen 2 litters born - they have watched me revive and fail to revive puppies - they have buried puppies and they have seen others grow and have puppies of their own. My children go shooting with their father and know what where there food comes from. In this day and age my husband and I feel it is incredibly important that children are exposed to the realities of life.

Regarding our prospective buyers - a couple will take the cross breed because they love our dog, others won't - all are good friends we have known over the years. They have all asked as for her one of her puppies because they know and love her - that is why we are doing it. We would never try to deceive them and my point in raising this on the thread was to consult with other experienced breeders about their experiences so we can make an informed decision.

I would like to thank everyone for their feedback, it has given us a lot to think about. My husband and I will discuss it over the weekend and make a decision.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Just to add, I would have the litter from a 7 yr old if she was fit


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

is 7 not too old i personally wouldnt breed with a girl over 5 and a half

Good luck with whatever you decide im sure if you go forward with the litter they will be very much loved little pups, its a tough decision you have to make again personally and not a popular decsion for many on here but id not be going to breed with her again if it were my dog so id probably let the pregnancy carry on especially as you are confident that you can give them a good start and get them good homes


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Providing she isn't a giant breed, or one of the larger breeds, I don't think 7 is too old... obviously never for a first time litter. She must be in tip top condition, but seeing as she is a gun dog, I'd imagine she is.


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