# Breeding twice a year



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

When we were looking for a pup earlier this year we saw a breeder we thought appeared to meet most of our criteria. Health checks, dual register (Border collie, so ISDS and KC), micro-chipped, first vac, support for life etc. etc. They only had male pups and we wanted a female, so passed them by, but I've been keeping an eye, as we might like another collie later.

I saw today that they have another litter from the same bitch, but these say 'unregistered hence price' and are a lot cheaper.

So, does this mean a breeder can breed as many litters as they like, they just can't register more than one a year from the same bitch?


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## pop pop (Nov 4, 2010)

sadly a bad breeder can breed a bitch on every season, but kc will only register one litter a year hence 2nd been not registered x


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Sounds like you had a close shave there  Poor bitch, two litters a year - hardly time to recover from the last lot!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Elles said:


> When we were looking for a pup earlier this year we saw a breeder we thought appeared to meet most of our criteria. Health checks, dual register (Border collie, so ISDS and KC), micro-chipped, first vac, support for life etc. etc. They only had male pups and we wanted a female, so passed them by, but I've been keeping an eye, as we might like another collie later.
> 
> I saw today that they have another litter from the same bitch, but these say 'unregistered hence price' and are a lot cheaper.
> 
> So, does this mean a breeder can breed as many litters as they like, they just can't register more than one a year from the same bitch?


The Kennel club have put on limits now, and yes breeding a bitch two consequetive seasons is one of the reasons they cant be registered.
As are breeding the bitch below a certain age, breeding a bitch above a certain age, they can now only have a certain amount of litters in total now too. Too close matings is another one like father to daughter mother to son.
As you quite rightly say though, it doesnt actually stop the breeder from doing it, they just cant register the pups. Same as the number of litters she could still have way over what the KC say, they just cant register the litters over the amount thats all.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The Kennel club have put on limits now, and yes breeding a bitch two consequetive seasons is one of the reasons they cant be registered.


Is this in force yet? Wonder how they would check, given the vast number of litters registered. if anyone knows it would be interesting


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

Sadly I am looking for a new job precisely because of practices like this where I work. Not that there is any work out there, I just can't bear watching the consequences of such sloppy management, the stud dogs get to the bitches on a willy-nilly basis, there have been 4 unplanned matings in the last 6 months. One where a stud dog under 2 & un health tested got to a bitch, one where a bitch has been caught on 2 consecutive seasons, one resulting in a terribly deformed singleton pup & another that actually went fairly well but was still unplanned.


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## PennyGC (Sep 24, 2011)

I thought it was only their assured breeders they'd not register 2x per year. From January they're restricting total litters to 4, but I hadn't seen anything about further restrictions.. had a quick look on KC and it says for assured breeders they should follow the KC guidance on frequency of litters, but can't quickly find anything giving the guidance


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

pop pop said:


> sadly a bad breeder can breed a bitch on every season, but kc will only register one litter a year hence 2nd been not registered x


This is complete rubbish and a very common myth - no idea where it came from but it is WRONG.

Licensed breeders are only permitted to breed one litter a year - any other breeder can register litters on every season if they wish providing the bitch hasn't had more than 6 litters (soon to become 4 litters and no more than 2 C-sections).

Some ABS members of certain breeds do now have the "no more than 1 litter in a 12 month period" rule for their members - but it remains the exception to the rule.

===========================================

Champdogs places an 11 month ruling on advertising litters from the same bitch as in exceptional cases - for example a singleton pup, slightly out seasons, a bitches age, a stud dog in the country for a limited time etc - some breeders might go just within the 12 months - I had such an opportunity in the form of an overseas stud dog but decided not to take it.

In the US as I understand it (*this is hearsay from others*) - it's not uncommon to have litters back to back and then maybe no litters for 2 to 3 years - the theory being I believe the mindset the bitch is in 'that mode'.

===============================

Can we clear this myth up once and for all though

Licensed breeders can only have one litter in a 12 month period from a bitch
Some ABS members of a small number of breeds are not permitted under the scheme to have mor than one litter in a 12 month period
Some breed clubs may have a code of ethics for their members stipulating this ruling

All these aside, there is NO ruling on the KC permitting the registration of more than one litter from a bitch in a 12 month period providing she is within the permitted age range, has not had more than the permitted number of C-sections, and has not had more than the allowed number of litters.

ETA - the relaxing of rules on what bitches can have litters through AI should really negate the need to 'rush' to use a dog whilst he is in the country.

OP - it does raise questions about the ethics of the breeder that they haven't registered the litter - it could be that they are a licensed breeder - or like so many others seem to think that the KC will only register a single litter in a 12 month period.


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## Barkie (Aug 22, 2011)

The current legal limit under the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999 is 6 litters in a lifetime. BUT having taken guidance from breeders and others the Kennel Club decided its guidelines for membership of the Assured/Accredited Breeders scheme will be 4 litters, the litters being born on or after 1st Jan 2012.

Kennel Club Takes The Lead On Litter Limits For Bitches - The Kennel Club


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

When you say licensed, I assume you mean by local councils? If so, what happens if a said licensed ABS member does breed back to back?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

pearltheplank said:


> When you say licensed, I assume you mean by local councils? If so, what happens if a said licensed ABS member does breed back to back?


Irrespective of what the KC may or may not do, the breeder is in breach of the terms of their license - but who is checking and monitoring?

This comes back to my point that local councils can't monitor under the existing laws, never mind introducing more stringent ones.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Irrespective of what the KC may or may not do, the breeder is in breach of the terms of their license - but who is checking and monitoring?
> 
> This comes back to my point that local councils can't monitor under the existing laws, never mind introducing more stringent ones.


I really thought that you could not register litters from the same bitch on consequetive seasons, I thought it had came in/was going to come in at the same time as the reduction in total number of litters you could register from the same bitch, and the certain close matings.
This not being the case, poor show then KC in my opinion. If they stopped the registration on consequetive seasons it would at least harm the bad breeders as far as their pocket and make some sort of a stand to say its not right.


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

sarelis said:


> Sadly I am looking for a new job precisely because of practices like this where I work. Not that there is any work out there, I just can't bear watching the consequences of such sloppy management, the stud dogs get to the bitches on a willy-nilly basis, there have been 4 unplanned matings in the last 6 months. One where a stud dog under 2 & un health tested got to a bitch, one where a bitch has been caught on 2 consecutive seasons, one resulting in a terribly deformed singleton pup & another that actually went fairly well but was still unplanned.


Good on you for getting out. Least you've still got your integrity those people who are allowing it to happen haven't. x


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I really thought that you could not register litters from the same bitch on consequetive seasons, I thought it had came in/was going to come in at the same time as the reduction in total number of litters you could register from the same bitch, and the certain close matings.
> This not being the case, poor show then KC in my opinion. If they stopped the registration on consequetive seasons it would at least harm the bad breeders as far as their pocket and make some sort of a stand to say its not right.


It is being brought in for some breeds for ABS members as specified by Breed Clubs - but I've not heard any announcements on a blanket ruling. The only blanket rulings I am aware of are "no more than 4 litters" and no more than 2 c-Sections.

The specification would have to be a duration rather than "consecutive seasons" - I know of a bitch where consecutive seasons means 18 months apart - similarly - two of my own girls can have three seasons in 14 months yet the grand-daughter hasn't had a season now for 14 months.

It's not the breeding on consecutive seasons per se which is the issue - it's the time permitted between litters for a bitch to give her body time to recover and get back up to full strength -a litter of pups can really take it out of a bitch - but then 1 or 2 pups may have absolutely no negative impact on a bitch at all - so could people apply for permission as they can for 8 year old bitches?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

pearltheplank said:


> Is this in force yet? Wonder how they would check, given the vast number of litters registered. if anyone knows it would be interesting


Seems I wa wrong, about the registering litters from the same bitch evey season without a break. I really thought it had come in when the max numbers of litters and certain close matings did.

The KC know exactly whats going on. Get a copy of the Breed records supplement thats printed every 3 months. Its broken down for each group
and all the litters registered in the previous 3 months are in each one.
It gives age of the dam, and I think the sire too, number of litters the bitch has had, date previous litter was born, total number of pups she has had
and other details as well cant remember them all without checking. They keep ongoing records so they know. Whos registering what, where and when and exactly how many litters each breeders registering.
have done fo years. You can also order a 5 generation pedigree for you dog too.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The KC know exactly whats going on. Get a copy of the Breed records supplement thats printed every 3 months.


I do, this is why I was surprised that these litters are still bing registered. obviously because its still allowed by the KC. Shocking! We all know its not right and not fair on the bitch but all said and done, the Kc is a business and doesn't want to lose revenue


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I really thought that you could not register litters from the same bitch on consequetive seasons, I thought it had came in/was going to come in at the same time as the reduction in total number of litters you could register from the same bitch, and the certain close matings.
> This not being the case, poor show then KC in my opinion. If they stopped the registration on consequetive seasons it would at least harm the bad breeders as far as their pocket and make some sort of a stand to say its not right.





pearltheplank said:


> I do, this is why I was surprised that these litters are still bing registered. obviously because its still allowed by the KC. Shocking! We all know its not right and not fair on the bitch but all said and done, the Kc is a business and doesn't want to lose revenue


Their stance is that they do not endorse it, but leave the option open because there may be a genuine reason for litters in consecutive sesons - for example, bitches with irregular seasons (Callie comes into season around every 18 months - she's too old now, but if other things had been right, I may have considered back to back matings).

FAQs - Puppy Litter Registration - The Kennel Club

_Q. My bitch has had 2 litters within a 12 month period, can I register the litter?

A. The Kennel Club does not endorse this and would recommend at least a year is given between litters, however we do understand that in situations of accidents or if a bitch has irregular seasons, a second application will be accepted. Breeders who breed four or more litters per year must be licensed by their local authority. Breeders with fewer litters must also be licensed if they are carrying out a business of breeding dogs for sale._

I don't know how often they query it when someone does apply to register a litter from a back to back mating though


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

One came to my attention, the bitch is just over 3 years old and is now on her 4th back to back litter. The first 3 have all been registered and this is a KCAB member! And there seems nothing anyone can do


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Their stance is that they do not endorse it, but leave the option open because there may be a genuine reason for litters in consecutive sesons - for example, bitches with irregular seasons (Callie comes into season around every 18 months - she's too old now, but if other things had been right, I may have considered back to back matings).
> 
> FAQs - Puppy Litter Registration - The Kennel Club
> 
> ...


This is just my opinion of course, but as far as Im concerned the KC has too many cop outs written in, by saying they do not endorse it, and passing the buck to the local authorities. They tend to do it a lot as far as I can see.
If they made more things mandatory and firm instead, of suggestions and reccomendations, and stopped building in loop holes for Iffy breeders to get around they could acheive a bit more then they do. That though is just my opinion but it does make me angry.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sled dog hotel said:


> This is just my opinion of course, but as far as Im concerned the KC has too many cop outs written in, by saying they do not endorse it, and passing the buck to the local authorities. They tend to do it a lot as far as I can see.
> If they made more things mandatory and firm instead, of suggestions and reccomendations, and stopped building in loop holes for Iffy breeders to get around they could acheive a bit more then they do. That though is just my opinion but it does make me angry.


I understand your frustration about the KC passing the buck to local authorities, but they have no legal jurisdiction over back to back litters, whereas the local authorities do (providing the breeder is licensed, of course, which again is a local authority matter.

That being said, I think the KC _could_ tighten things up to provide for genuine cases without leaving loopholes for iffy breeders. For example if, instead of just saying they did not endorse it, they altered the rule to state that no litters from back to back breeding are allowed to be registered, with the proviso that you could apply for permission _before_ you breed a) if you have a genuine reason for doing so, and b) if you have a letter from your vet stating that your bitch is in a fit and healthy state (ie the same criteria as if you want to breed from a bitch over 8 years old). I know of several breeders who have wanted to breed and register litters from bitches who are 8 years old, but have been refused by the KC as not having a valid enough reason, so that rule does appear to work.


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## FickleFeet (Oct 17, 2011)

this thread makes for very interesting reading...


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

pearltheplank said:


> One came to my attention, the bitch is just over 3 years old and is now on her 4th back to back litter. The first 3 have all been registered and this is a KCAB member! And there seems nothing anyone can do


The AKC as well registers back to back litters consecutively and cops out of any responsibility. I was shocked to come across this the other day. The dam of this girl that I was looking up health info on appears to have had three litters in less than 14 months (March 2004, Oct 2004, May 2005) - with AKC registered pups in each litter.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

You would think, as registering bodies, there could be enforceable rules about this with room for appeals if exceptional circumstances occur.

CC


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