# Tory Party Conference



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

The Tory Party Conference kicked off today and the only reason why I am interested is because they are the only party talking sense at the moment and they happen to be the party taking us out of the EU. This does not mean I support them but blimey they are doing a better job at there conference than Labour.

At last Theresa May has let us know that article 50 will be triggered before the end of March 2017. This means the UK will be out of the EU before the summer of 2019. Theresa May has also talked about the Great Repeal Bill which means that the European Communities Act 1972 will be repealed. EU laws will be enshrined in UK law until we leave the EU and then Parliament can get rid of the laws they see fit that they feel don't apply to the UK and then make our own laws that aren't governed by Brussels. They have assured UK workers none of the work laws will change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37532364?

I listen Boris Johnson's speech and he is a really intelligent man and funny as well.

Looking forward to the rest of the conference.

Please note I am sat on the fence at the moment with whom I am going to support in the next General Election.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

The Mirror was praising her this morning. That's right - the Mirror. Said she was trying to be all things to all people but rather that than Corbyn who is trying to be a few things to a few people (or words to that effect). Tis a topsy turvey world.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Satori said:


> The Mirror was praising her this morning. That's right - the Mirror. Said she was trying to be all things to all people but rather that than Corbyn who is trying to be a few things to a few people (or words to that effect). Tis a topsy turvey world.


Well if Corbyn was PM we'd have no army, no air force, no navy and no nuclear weapons. We'd be defenceless.

Theresa May is definitely ticking all the boxes for me at the moment.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Haven't seen any but saw her on the Andrew Marr show this morning. Quite impressed, particularly what she said about Grammer schools, in fact all she said about schooling. Not a subject I ever take much notice of


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

You can watch Theresa May's speech here:


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Here's Boris Johnson's Speech:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

May's had her orders from her Boss @KittenKong http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/30/...et-meeting-theresa-may-rupert-murdoch-tweets/

So, Theresa May has a secret meeting with Murdoch on Thursday,
pulls the trigger on brexit on Sunday.
Nothing to see here.
Move along...









(stolen from twitter)

God help us now.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> May's had her orders from her Boss @KittenKong http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/30/...et-meeting-theresa-may-rupert-murdoch-tweets/
> 
> So, Theresa May has a secret meeting with Murdoch on Thursday,
> pulls the trigger on brexit on Sunday.
> ...


So negative aren't we towards Brexit and the Conservative/Tory Party. I hate to break the news to you. We are leaving the EU and the way Corbyn is behaving the Tories are going to be in power for the foreseeable future. So you'll have to get over being negative towards them and the direction the UK is going.

The Labour party is a shambles with Corbyn at the helm at least the Conservatives/Tories are doing something. It's called creating a positive vision for the UK outside of the dictorial clutches of Brussels and the EU.

Moving on from the Brexit speeches other things are being discussed as well.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Here's Boris Johnson's Speech:


Made me laugh a few times to start with, but became a little embarrassing and boring towards the end.

He should never try and force his enthusiasm or humour, it doesn't work

Still haven't seen Theresa's, will have a look when I have time to kill and can concentrate


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rona said:


> Haven't seen any but saw her on the Andrew Marr show this morning. Quite impressed, particularly what she said about Grammer schools, in fact all she said about schooling. Not a subject I ever take much notice of


 I didn't see it but I'm impressed with her so far and I didn't expect to be. I though she was the best of a bad lot but she's hit the ground running.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> I didn't see it but I'm impressed with her so far and I didn't expect to be. I though she was the best of a bad lot but she's hit the ground running.


She definitely has hit the ground running and is showing she wants to just get on with things and work. I didn't think I was going to be impressed with her in all honesty but I am very impressed so far.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> May's had her orders from her Boss @KittenKong .


I liked your post Noushka but disliked it for obvious reasons. This comes as no surprise.

stockwellcat:

"Moving on from the Brexit speeches other things are being discussed as well."

Indeed, if there's any truth of this below it seems they are more in La La Land than Labour.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-foreign-doctors-british-nhs-eu-a7341256.html

Either the Tories and terrified of UKIP or showing their true colours. The rubbish I've heard so far is what I would have expected from UKIP.

I'll bow out here and let the Conservatives here enjoy their conference.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> I liked your post Noushka but disliked it for obvious reasons. This comes as no surprise.
> 
> Indeed, if there's any truth of this below it seems they are more in La La Land than Labour.
> 
> ...


Yes Jeremy Hunt was a mistake Theresa May should never have rehired him.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-foreign-doctors-british-nhs-eu-a7341256.html
> 
> .


I've always thought that keeping him was her one mistake. One can only hope she realises it soon


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> I've always thought that keeping him was her mistake. One can only hope she realises it soon


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> I liked your post Noushka but disliked it for obvious reasons. This comes as no surprise.
> 
> stockwellcat:
> 
> ...


Sorry @KittenKong and @noushka05 if we don't agree on everything, but I have my views and you have yours. One thing we do agree on is the Jeremy Hunt issue.


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2016)

Tories talking sense I beg to differ. The tories are no good, just look what they are doing to our NHS for one example.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> May's had her orders from her Boss @KittenKong http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/30/...et-meeting-theresa-may-rupert-murdoch-tweets/
> 
> So, Theresa May has a secret meeting with Murdoch on Thursday,
> pulls the trigger on brexit on Sunday.
> ...


I do love a good conspiracy theory, which is pretty much all you will ever get from the Canary


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

May has always implied that A50 would be triggered early in 2017, so by the end of Q1 is no big surprise.

Repealing the European Act has to be done before we leave the EU, and to introduce a repeal bill now with a postdated implementation is pretty much just throwing some raw meat to the Tory europhobes. 

And calling it a "Great Repeal Bill" is a bit silly. What's so 'great' about it? I suppose it's similar to calling the new minimum wage a National Living Wage when it is clearly no such thing.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> She definitely has hit the ground running and is showing she wants to just get on with things and work. I didn't think I was going to be impressed with her in all honesty but I am very impressed so far.


I was on the fence but giving her the benefit of the doubt. Her positioning of Brexit had me won over though and her slapping Sturgeon back under the stone from whence she came was brilliant. Even though she and her administration may be a little bit centre-left, they'd get my vote (and likely most of the country too).

I thought Hammond's speech was a bit insubstantial but I can forgive that at this stage.

A steady ship until at least 2025 then. At least.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Satori said:


> I was on the fence but giving her the benefit of the doubt. Her positioning of Brexit had me won over though and her slapping Sturgeon back under the stone from whence she came was brilliant. Even though she and her administration may be a little bit centre-left, they'd get my vote (and likely most of the country too).
> 
> I thought Hammond's speech was a bit insubstantial but I can forgive that at this stage.
> 
> A steady ship until at least 2025 then. At least.


OMG don't say that, if there are in that long you can kiss the NHS Good-Bye.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Satori said:


> I was on the fence but giving her the benefit of the doubt. Her positioning of Brexit had me won over though and her slapping Sturgeon back under the stone from whence she came was brilliant. Even though she and her administration may be a little bit centre-left, they'd get my vote (and likely most of the country too).
> 
> I thought Hammond's speech was a bit insubstantial but I can forgive that at this stage.
> 
> A steady ship until at least 2025 then. At least.


I totally agree and couldn't have put this any better myself.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-nuclear-idUSKCN1230YN

"But on Monday, Putin issued a decree suspending an agreement, concluded in 2000, which bound the two sides to dispose of surplus plutonium originally intended for use in nuclear weapons."

What has Corbyn said on this?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-usa-nuclear-idUSKCN1230YN
> 
> "But on Monday, Putin issued a decree suspending an agreement, concluded in 2000, which bound the two sides to dispose of surplus plutonium originally intended for use in nuclear weapons."
> 
> What has Corbyn said on this?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> So negative aren't we towards Brexit and the Conservative/Tory Party. I hate to break the news to you. We are leaving the EU and the way Corbyn is behaving the Tories are going to be in power for the foreseeable future. So you'll have to get over being negative towards them and the direction the UK is going.
> 
> The Labour party is a shambles with Corbyn at the helm at least the Conservatives/Tories are doing something. It's called creating a positive vision for the UK outside of the dictorial clutches of Brussels and the EU.
> 
> Moving on from the Brexit speeches other things are being discussed as well.


LOL Yes, I'm EXTREMELY negative about both, but then I'm not blinded by nationalism like you are. Unlike you, I KNOW the country is in the state its in because of tory policies & not because of immigration( or the labour party, or the EU or whatever else they choose to scapegoat). The spiralling poverty & homelessness, the demolition of our NHS, cuts to public services, cuts to benefits for the disabled & the needy - are ALL due to tory austerity. The badger cull, buzzard cull, trashing of the renewables industry, trashing of our environment & so on because they pander to vested interests & big business.

I'm a realist, I'm not wearing rose coloured specs - I can SEE how dire things are. So unless things actually DO change for the better I'll continue being negative, ta very much. lol

This is a good summary of May's speech -* "In years to come, this will be seen as one of the most disastrous speeches ever made by a prime minister"*

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/may-speech-makes-it-clear-we-re-leaving-the-single-market



KittenKong said:


> I liked your post Noushka but disliked it for obvious reasons. This comes as no surprise.
> 
> stockwellcat:
> 
> ...


I know why you liked it  Nope, no surprise at all.

I could knock his smirking block off! Those saying May made a 'mistake' reappointing him are delusional. May knew exactly what she was doing - she kept Hunt on so he could finish the job of dismantling & privatising our NHS. You only have to look at her voting history to see how much she cares about it.

Look at this! Lie upon lie yet some people still have faith in her.








MiffyMoo said:


> I do love a good conspiracy theory, which is pretty much all you will ever get from the Canary


LOL From someone who references GUIDIO flaming FAWKES:Hilarious One of Murdoch's minions lol

Blair, Cameron, Hunt, Abbot. No, Murdoch has no influence whatsoever over right wing politicians:Wideyed

If you tried reading the Canary & other alternative media outlets as opposed to establishment mouth pieces perhaps you'd be better informed & wouldn't fall for tory soundbites such as 'clearing up labours economic mess'. You'd have been fully aware this was just more tory spin & that actually, it is the tories that have ALWAYS borrowed more than labour when in power 












Satori said:


> I was on the fence but giving her the benefit of the doubt. Her positioning of Brexit had me won over though and her slapping Sturgeon back under the stone from whence she came was brilliant. *Even though she and her administration may be a little bit centre-left*, they'd get my vote (and likely most of the country too).
> 
> I thought Hammond's speech was a bit insubstantial but I can forgive that at this stage.
> 
> A steady ship until at least 2025 then. At least.


You're just taking the mick:Hilarious


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> LOL Yes, I'm EXTREMELY negative about both, but then I'm not blinded by nationalism like you are. Unlike you, I KNOW the country is in the state its in because of tory policies & not because of immigration( or the labour party, or the EU or whatever else they use as their scapegoat). The spiralling poverty & homelessness, the demolition of our NHS, cuts to public services, cuts to benefits for the disabled & the needy - are ALL due to tory austerity. The badger cull, buzzard cull, trashing of the renewables industry, trashing of our environment & so on because they pander to vested interests & big business.
> 
> I'm a realist, I'm not wearing rose coloured specs - I can SEE how dire things are. So unless things actually DO change for the better I'll continue being negative, ta very much. lol
> 
> ...


Errm Who left a note saying there was no money left when the Conservatives won the election? Labour. Who left this country on the verge of bankruptcy? Labour. Who wants to spend trillions of pounds if he gets into power? Corbyn who happens to be the new leader of the Labour party. I would say it is Labour's fault the country was in a mess. The Conservatives done their best bringing the UK back from the brink of bankruptcy. It was tough for everyone to go through that period of austerity and thank goodness Cameron & Osborne have gone.

I repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. I do not support the Conservatives at the moment, I am sat on the fence at the moment. I am not supporting Labour either as I can't stand Corbyn. Make what you wish out of this statement.

Just because I say I am happy with what I am hearing from Theresa May doesn't mean I support her. But I am very happy about her stance about Brexit and yes I voted for Brexit but this does not mean I am racist or xenophobic what-so-ever. But she is starting to win me over with her stance on Brexit.

Prior to Corbyn being Labour Leader I was a Labour Supporter, his left extremism and lack of doing anything scared me off Labour. I don't like his style either, that's regarding how he manages his opposition at PMQs. He wants to drag Labour and the UK back to the 1970's/1980's. Not for me I am afraid.

Regarding the cuts to benefits for the sick and disabled, didn't you hear what Damien Green said this week, those with chronic or life long health conditions will no longer get assessed, or did you miss that?

The NHS has over spent for years before the Conservatives where in power this time around so the Conservatives can't be blamed for what is going on. I have seen what they waste money on, empty buildings not needed (I saw this when I lived in Oxford when Labour was in power - With signs saying this building is secured by such and such on behalf of the NHS and boarded up - they are still there now in the same condition unused and left empty by the NHS) and should have been sold off years ago. That's wasting money. Also allowing foreigners who should pay for treatment get away with not paying because they where never chased or followed up. You have to pay anywhere else in the world if you need treatment with a GP, Hospital or Dentist, I lived abroad in Europe for a very short time in history so had to pay for treatment. I am not saying everyone using the NHS should have to pay, but they need to clamp down on those that do and should have to pay, like those not entitled to NHS treatment because they are visiting our country and are required to pay.

I disagree with the way the Junior Doctors are being treated yes.

The NHS needs to sort there budget out instead of wasting money. Yes I do use the NHS I am just pointing out some observations.

I do disagree with Jeremey Hunt being reappointed as health secretary and he should have been sacked and I hope Theresa May realises she made a mistake.

Didn't you know every politician lies (so nothing new then)  its who tells the best lies and gets most support that wins? Even Corbyn the glorious left wing Labour Leader lies.  Corbyn even makes sound bytes as well but never acts on them  Its down to what you want to believe. Surely you can't be that naive. 

I am no longer getting entangled in debate with yourself over this. I have said what I have said and will not retract anything I have said.

No hard feelings.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> The NHS needs to sort there budget out instead of wasting money. Yes I do use the NHS I am just pointing out some observations.


You don't think they've been squeezed til they squeak then?
You don't think an aging population is putting immeasurable pressure on medical services when, if they could pass many onto a care service, the hospitals could cope?



stockwellcat said:


> I have seen what they waste money on, empty buildings not needed (I saw this when I lived in Oxford when Labour was in power - With signs saying this building is secured by such and such on behalf of the NHS and boarded up - they are still there now in the same condition unused and left empty by the NHS) and should have been sold off years ago


This is already happening and has been for a few years
http://www.housinglin.org.uk/Topics/browse/HealthandHousing/NHSestate/?parent=8693&child=10186

http://www.property.nhs.uk/what-we-do/disposals/


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> You don't think they've been squeezed til they squeak then?
> You don't think an aging population is putting immeasurable pressure on medical services when, if they could pass many onto a care service, the hospitals could cope?
> 
> This is already happening and has been for a few years
> ...


Yes they have squeezed the NHS, but they have squeezed every public sector, Council's, Public Transport etc. I am not saying it was fair squeezing the NHS and closing services everyone needs. The problem with the NHS is that it has been mismanaged for years and has a huge deficit. It's not fair that services have been cut within the NHS, but where do they make the cuts? They have to make cuts to the NHS to fill the huge black hole in its finances. There is one thing I do agree with and that is training up more doctors in the UK instead of hiring from abroad as this will save money. Where would you make cuts then to plug the NHS black hole? I agree about passing people onto care services, but it isn't down to the NHS to move people into care it is down to families of those people. Would you put your elderly relatives in care to free up NHS money? Do you have the money to do so? Care homes are expensive.

Regarding surplus NHS properties, they don't seem to be doing much about it as there are still empty, unsold and wasting money on them. Yes they produce reports but that doesn't solve the issue.

What ever they do to try and solve NHS financial black hole it will be unfair and is an un-win-able situation.

I disagree having Jeremy Hunt in charge as Health Secretary he should have been sacked and I disagree with privatising the NHS as well.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Errm Who left a note saying there was no money left when the Conservatives won the election? Labour. Who left this country on the verge of bankruptcy? Labour. Who wants to spend trillions of pounds if he gets into power? Corbyn who happens to be the new leader of the Labour party. I would say it is Labour's fault the country was in a mess. The Conservatives done their best bringing the UK back from the brink of bankruptcy. It was tough for everyone to go through that period of austerity and thank goodness Cameron & Osborne have gone.
> 
> I repeat what I said at the beginning of this thread. I do not support the Conservatives at the moment, I am sat on the fence at the moment. I am not supporting Labour either as I can't stand Corbyn. Make what you wish out of this statement.
> 
> ...


I'm astonished at how misinformed you are, aren't you interested in the truth?.

I'll just put you straight on a few points.

1) It was Liam Byrne who left the note - as a joke! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24173270

2) You are parroting the right wing lie that labour 'left the country on the verge of bankruptcy' - it is not true!. Labour have always been far better with the economy than the tories have - https://www.ft.com/content/3ea5fbaa-a625-11e4-9bd3-00144feab7de#axzz3ZTzwgDRR Osborne will go down in history as the worst chancellor in modern history. Tell me what economic credibility the tories have after getting the UK into* £555 BILLION* of economic debt???

And now, yesterday, Hammond tore up the tories 'Long Term Economic Plan'. People who voted Tory based on economic credibility must be feeling pretty silly right now http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/philip-hammond-scrapping-tories-deficit-8969673

3) https://www.ft.com/content/069d4a38-8738-11e6-a75a-0c4dce033ade









4) Labour have not been in office for 6 YEARS. Homelessness was down, poverty down, the NHS was in surplus now it is in MASSIVE deficit & so on.

5) The tories have wrecked the economy NOT labour (see above )

Reappointing Hunt was no mistake, May knew EXACTLY what she was doing. She wants him to finish the job he started. Are you really so blinkered that you cant see that? People who want to abolish our NHS have been invited to speak at the conference. Open your eyes and your mind @stockwellcat.

http://evolvepolitics.com/tory-think-tank-abolishing-nhs/

I'm not bothered where you stand, I'm just responding to your posts as I see fit. You told me I basically had to suck it up! No chance. I have a social conscience & environmental one, I'll never sit back & watch the tories destroy everything I care about.

The NHS was in surplus when labour left office - its now on its knees. Soon they will start closing hospitals & GPs surgeries. Blaming foreigners for NHS problems is 'divide & rule' at its worst. The tories forced the NHS to make £20 BILLION 'efficiency savings' & have chronically underfunded it to make it privatisation appear the only option. Our NHS was the cheapest most efficient health service in the world. Please stop falling for right wing lies, check out factual sources of info, such as the KingsFund & the NHA Party. The tories have deliberately turned the surplus left by labour into a HUGE deficit priming our NHS for privatisation,










Caroline Lucas doesn't lie & Corbyn is one of the most principled politicians we have. I oppose everything the tories stand for. Their neoliberal ideology is destroying our society & the natural world.

Definitely no hard feelings here


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Care can be provided by councils, so while they still seem to be managing quite easily (well around here they are) they are passing the buck of the rising elderly, onto the NHS by not supplying proper services for the elderly.

This isn't a political party problem that I can see, the Labour party didn't adress this any more than the Conservatives, but it's something we should all be concerned about. 

Years ago, when Blair first came into No 10 and I was working at a nursery. We were invited to visit an estate of a billionaire that we were supplying plants to. Everyone else was very impressed. It made me feel sick, the opulence. Just the hallway was the size of a 4 bedroomed house, with huge sweeping oak staircases on both sides, 4 marble (the real stuff) pillars and flooring. This was a modern recently built house.
Now while I'm of the opinion that shared wealth is not good for the country on the whole, I cannot see how someone this this kind of wealth would even notice a couple of point increase in taxation, while it could make all the difference to someone sick or elderly. 
Our tax bands are so unfair and set much too low 
I do think there should be another tax band for the super rich. Their loose change adds up to rather a lot.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Theresa May walks into brexit trap  https://www.ft.com/content/7b78f276-8940-11e6-8cb7-e7ada1d123b1


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Theresa May walks into brexit trap  https://www.ft.com/content/7b78f276-8940-11e6-8cb7-e7ada1d123b1
> 
> View attachment 285719


If no agreement is reached in two years then we can walk away with no deal and let the WTO rules kick in. The EU has its red lines and rightly to the UK has its red lines as well.

All newspaper articles are opinions and again it's what you want to believe.

You don't know what is going on behind the scenes on Brexit. The press don't know either, so articles like this is just scaremongering. Theresa May has asked that things like this stop as it isn't helping. The press are good at scaremongering and spreading lies.

If you are wondering why I haven't responded to your other threads above its because I have finished with that topic. Believe what you want to believe.


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## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

rona said:


> Care can be provided by councils, so while they still seem to be managing quite easily (well around here they are) they are passing the buck of the rising elderly, onto the NHS by not supplying proper services for the elderly.


Where I live, the upper tier council has a £15m hole in it's budget which was caused by the NHS pulling out of a deal to pay them for sharing services. So they are not managing well and the NHS has screwed them over so to speak. Maybe it's different in different parts of the country.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Care can be provided by councils, so while they still seem to be managing quite easily (well around here they are) they are passing the buck of the rising elderly, onto the NHS by not supplying proper services for the elderly.
> 
> This isn't a political party problem that I can see, the Labour party didn't adress this any more than the Conservatives, but it's something we should all be concerned about.
> 
> ...


AUSTERITY cuts mean councils cant meet their legal duty to deliver social care - https://www.theguardian.com/society...ncils-face-1bn-shortfall?CMP=share_btn_fb#_=_


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MilleD said:


> Where I live, the upper tier council has a £15m hole in it's budget which was caused by the NHS pulling out of a deal to pay them for sharing services. So they are not managing well and the NHS has screwed them over so to speak. Maybe it's different in different parts of the country.


I know my dad said the cuts where he is are bad due to a huge black hole in the local councils finances and they are talking about closing certain services to find money, this includes departments in hospitals that are none essential as the GP can provide these services. He said his council tax has shot up on the lower council tax band over the last 5 years.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> If no agreement is reached in two years then we can walk away with no deal and let the WTO rules kick in. The EU has its red lines and rightly to the UK has its red lines as well.
> 
> All newspaper articles are opinions and again it's what you want to believe.
> 
> ...


"You can have your own opinion you can't have your own FACTS."

Its obvious the media you trust in is giving 'opinion' as 'fact' & you blindly accept it. You are choosing to believe articles which fit your confirmation bias while dismissing any actual facts as 'scaremongering'. Very closed minded approach.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> You don't know what is going on behind the scenes on Brexit. The press don't know either, so articles like this is just scaremongering. Theresa May has asked that things like this stop as it isn't helping. The press are good at scaremongering and spreading lies..


The Financial Times can hardly be classed as a left wing Labour supporting paper! Having said that I trust what they write more than the Express, Mail and of course The Sun who don't care how possibly damaging Brexit may be as long as "Britain can be British again"

I think not knowing what's going on behind the scenes is equally worrying and of course frustrating even for many who voted and still support Brexit.

As for Jeremy Hunt, I believe Noushka's right. Besides she couldn't sack the former Minister for Murdoch could she?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> The Financial Times can hardly be classed as a left wing Labour supporting paper! Having said that I trust what they write more than the Express, Mail and of course The Sun who don't care how possibly damaging Brexit may be as long as "Britain can be British again"
> 
> I think not knowing what's going on behind the scenes is equally worrying and of course frustrating even for many who voted and still support Brexit.
> 
> As for Jeremy Hunt, I believe Noushka's right. Besides she couldn't sack the former Minister for Murdoch could she?


How do you know what papers I read if any? Do you live in my house? Because you don't know I get accused of being right wing and reading right wing press. How do you know I am and do?

I wouldn't call the Guardian, Financial Times, Telegraph etc etc as factual. Like it was factual the sky was going to fall in, world war 3 was going to break out if we voted to leave the EU. Even economists have admitted they got most things wrong over the Referendum.

It is worrying not knowing what is going on behind the scenes but haven't you seen what has happened in history when we have let our negotiating hand away before entering negotiations, we have lost. So isn't it better to keep our negotiating hand to a select few until they negotiate so try and get the best deal available?

I just feel sorry for those that have not accepted the Brexit vote and are feeling everyone who has is racist etc. Calling each other right wing, left wing, racist etc is very damaging to society. Why because it will cause resentment and hatred which is what is already happening.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.....

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...e-abroad-after-training/ar-BBwXMIN?li=BBoPRmx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.....
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...e-abroad-after-training/ar-BBwXMIN?li=BBoPRmx


You don't think those we pay to train should stay and work here?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.....
> 
> http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...e-abroad-after-training/ar-BBwXMIN?li=BBoPRmx


I don't understand, what are you upset about? On one hand everyone complains that the NHS is hemorrhaging money, but then complain when they lock junior doctors into a contract in return for spending £200,000 on their tuition. Really, it just sounds like complaining for complaining's sake


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

I see where you are coming from but through the recent upsets and low staff morale in the profession I'd imagine many potential students would be put off from training in the first place if told they cannot have the option to work outside the UK. It's supposed to be a free country after all.

Does this mean Brexit will keep immigrants out and UK citizens in, unless of course they are very rich?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> I see where you are coming from but through the recent upsets and low staff morale in the profession I'd imagine many potential students would be put off from training in the first place if told they cannot have the option to work outside the UK. It's supposed to be a free country after all.
> 
> Does this mean Brexit will keep immigrants out and UK citizens in, unless of course they are very rich?


It's a 4 year lock in, which, in the scheme of things is not much. It's a lot shorter than having to take out a £200,000 loan to fund your studies, as they do in the US.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> I see where you are coming from but through the recent upsets and low staff morale in the profession I'd imagine many potential students would be put off from training in the first place if told they cannot have the option to work outside the UK. It's supposed to be a free country after all.
> 
> *Does this mean Brexit will keep immigrants out and UK citizens in, unless of course they are very rich?*


Answering your question I have put in bold when replying.

From what I understand is because we will no longer be in the EU, immigrants will have to apply for a visa to work and reside in the UK like we will have to, to live and work in Europe or countries in the EU in the future. They will have to have a job in the UK to live in the UK. This is like the rules that apply to any other country outside of the EU (USA, Canada, Turkey, Australia, New Zealand, Japan etc).

If people want to come to the UK on holiday they'd have to apply for a visitors visa (like we have to apply to visit the USA, Canada, Australia, Turkey etc etc).

This is what I understand from what has been said so far.

Hope that answers the question you asked?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

This has been discussed in an earlier thread where we made our feelings well known. Sorry, but while I accept the result I can never feel positive about Brexit, nor the Tories for that matter.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> It's a 4 year lock in, which, in the scheme of things is not much.


4 years is nothing. I don't know any employer who doesn't have some sort of payback clause in training contracts, especially if they're paying for an external qualification which will enrich the individual.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> I see where you are coming from but through the recent upsets and low staff morale in the profession I'd imagine many potential students would be put off from training in the first place if told they cannot have the option to work outside the UK. It's supposed to be a free country after all.
> 
> Does this mean Brexit will keep immigrants out and UK citizens in, unless of course they are very rich?


I guess he's putting his own spin on the whole idea of Britain abandoning freedom of movement...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Still fiddling around the edges isn't it. Needs something far more than this to make a difference
Give the job to someone with vision


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

> NHS hospitals rely heavily on foreign doctors, who currently make up 25% of the medical workforce, and spend £3.3bn a year on agency staff, including locums.
> 
> Mr Hunt will say: "As well as delivering higher standards today, we need to prepare the NHS for the future - which means doing something we have never done properly before: training enough doctors.
> 
> ...


Makes sense to me scoping for doctors in the UK first.

He also needs to pay attention to this as well:


> Maureen Baker, chairwoman of the Royal College of GPs, called for assurances that the boost for hospital doctors would be matched by measures to increase the number of family doctors, whose teams make up 90% of patient contacts in the NHS.


It's not about shutting the UK off from the rest of the world as some think is happening but isn't going to happen, it is about finding people willing to train up as doctors in our country first before scoping for doctors abroad.

Yes there will be a need to still recruit foreign doctors but that need will drop over time. The problem we have at the moment is there aren't enough doctors in the UK.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat, said
_"Yes there will be a need to still recruit foreign doctors but that need will drop over time.* The problem we have at the moment is there aren't enough doctors in the UK.*"_

And the way this government treat them, is anyone surprized!!!


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> stockwellcat, said
> _"Yes there will be a need to still recruit foreign doctors but that need will drop over time.* The problem we have at the moment is there aren't enough doctors in the UK.*"_
> 
> And the way this government treat them, is anyone surprized!!!


Out of interest, has a comparison been done as to how junior doctors are treated elsewhere, or is the UK the worst place in the world?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> Out of interest, has a comparison been done as to how junior doctors are treated elsewhere, or is the UK the worst place in the world?


 It would be interesting to see if a study has been done to see if we are the worst country in treating the Junior Doctors the way the Government does.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm not sure, but lots of our Doctors go aboard to work, and most of the ones that come here are from third world countries.

But the way they are treated, way would I choose it as a profession.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

There is a worldwide shortage of doctors, nothing to do with party politics.
If they want to chase money, there's plenty of openings for them. They don't even have to leave this country, just the NHS

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2013/health-workforce-shortage/en/
"The world will be short of 12.9 million health-care workers by 2035; today, that figure stands at 7.2 million."


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Amber Rudd has announced today that foreign criminals committing crimes in the UK will be deported from the UK and face a ban to re-enter the UK for up to 10 years. Similar to what they do in Australia. She has also said we do not have to Brexit to introduce this.

About time we had a tough stance like this.

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-criminals-facing-deportation-and-uk-ban-for-up-to-10-years-10605190


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-devaluing-contribution-foreign-doctors-to-uk


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-devaluing-contribution-foreign-doctors-to-uk


Sorry am I being a plank.

I just don't get why people are getting upset with recruiting doctors from the UK first (homegrown doctors for the UK, educated in the UK and trained in the UK)?

I just don't see what there is to get upset about?

It's a sensible solution isn't it?

Am I missing the point somewhere?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Whatever you're missing I'm missing too. There are going to be more training places for doctors. I don't see how this can be a bad thing if we need more - which we do. If it had been announced by a Labour government it would be heralded as most wonderful by Labour supporters but because it is a Tory policy it has to be rubbished somehow. Suggesting they work for a while in the country which paid to train them is not a new idea. Decades ago when I lived in Australia it was the norm that certain professionals had to repay their training by working where they were needed for a given time.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> Whatever you're missing I'm missing too. There are going to be more training places for doctors. I don't see how this can be a bad thing if we need more - which we do. If it had been announced by a Labour government it would be heralded as most wonderful by Labour supporters but because it is a Tory policy it has to be rubbished somehow. *Suggesting they work for a while in the country which paid to train them is not a new idea. * Decades ago when I lived in Australia it was the norm that certain professionals had to repay their training by working where they were needed for a given time.


I suppose it's the same as having a student loan/grant and saying to the student you have to repay this when you start work.

I think that people are upset at the fact doctors have to pay there training costs back even though the company (The NHS) paid for this. All they are doing is paying the NHS back over a set period of time for training them. I think that's fair.

As you said if this was a Labour idea/policy it would have be hearlded as the best thing ever to happen.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I don't think it's about recruiting people. It's all good if you are planning to stay and live in U.K. for the rest of your life. But most of the time life isn't like that. Life, circumstances and plans change. Saying that you have to sign up to stay in U.K. For 4 years is quite a lot for many young people these days. What if after graduating you decide to move? Especially since currently no one knows what will be happening with traveling and working abroad in 2 years. 
For my masters I have a choice between forking out 19k over 2 years in Scotland, or go to study in England where after 3 years of training I would have to stay additional 2 years working there. I love Scotland which is why I've been here for 8 years and want to study here and hopefully get a job after. But I don't know if I want to live here for the rest of my life and I never say that I will definitely not be willing to take up a good offer somewhere abroad after I graduate. Why wouldn't I? I genuinely have no interest in moving to England. If it was just to study - fair enough. But I wouldn't sign up to be tied down in a place that I might not want to stay in.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 285739
> View attachment 285740
> View attachment 285741


Errm How is it racist to recruit UK Homegrown UK Doctors first? That isn't racist.

Sorry don't buy this comments you posted.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I don't think that the homegrown doctors will see this as recruitment. It's simply tying people down.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> I don't think that the homegrown doctors will see this as recruitment. It's simply tying people down.


No. If I gave you a loan to study I'd expect you to pay it back before you disappear half way around the world. It's simple. It's not tying you down. You borrowed money you should pay it back or if someone pays for your training you should pay it back.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

On the racist issue I am sorry but get of your horse on this subject. Labour came out with alot of racist comments etc last week. I don't understand how the Government is now racist for saying they are going to recruit homegrown doctors in the UK? That is pathetically childish.

The racist word is used to loosely nowadays.

Being racist means you pick on someone because of there colour, accent, culture, nationality not because you want to recruit within your own country first.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

You do realise that applications for medical courses have been dropping to the point that one course this year had to offer places through clearing? Nothing makes more sense than making a career more restrictive!  I mean really... when the country needs more doctors, your existing professionals go on several strikes, the logical decision is to lock up all the potential local applicants and not allow any outsiders who want to work here


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> You do realise that applications for medical courses have been dropping to the point that one course this year had to offer places through clearing? Nothing makes more sense than making a career more restrictive!  I mean really... when the country needs more doctors, your existing professionals go on several strikes, the logical decision is to lock up all the potential local applicants and not allow any outsiders who want to work here


No they haven't said not recruit from outside the UK, they said to recruit within the UK first and where there is a shortfall, advertise and recruit from outside the UK as a secondary option. Why not recruit from the UK first after all this is the country (countries) you live in? British jobs for British people first (That isn't being racist at all) and then fill the positions still available from outside the UK.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)




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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> You do realise that applications for medical courses have been dropping to the point that one course this year had to offer places through clearing? Nothing makes more sense than making a career more restrictive!  I mean really... when the country needs more doctors, your existing professionals go on several strikes, the logical decision is to lock up all the potential local applicants and not allow any outsiders who want to work here


Please explain how you can justify us spending £200,000 training someone up, just so they can potentially save on paying it themselves in their home country, and then they up and leave? The younger generation need to get a grip and understand that they can't do exactly as they wish, there are consequences to every decision they make


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@porps 
Boris and Jerry should put on a show!

Boris can burp the National Anthem while Jerry does his Tommy Cooper impression , building a million houses with no money, just like that !
You gotta laugh haven't you . :Smuggrin


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

MiffyMoo said:


> Please explain how you can justify us spending £200,000 training someone up, just so they can potentially save on paying it themselves in their home country, and then they up and leave? The younger generation need to get a grip and understand that they can't do exactly as they wish, there are consequences to every decision they make


The answer would be in making it more appealing for the people to stay here. Imposing more restrictions will just put people off from applying. Instead of getting people on the course and encouraging them to stay, the government will end up with some bright minds either choosing not to go into medicine or going to do it elsewhere. Right now I can already see the promotional poster for a medical course: You like working endless night shifts? Do you enjoy working 7 day weeks? You want to get away from your family and partner on public holidays? You want to comit to living in UK for the next 11 years even if your partner gets an amazing opportunity abroad? Look no further! We still have places through clearing!


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> Who left this country on the verge of bankruptcy? Labour.


I'm not really getting involved in this, but I do wonder at how completely the Tories have managed to get this into the public consciousness.

The UK was not on the brink of bankruptcy.

Greece was heading that way, as reflected in its credit rating, which was basically junk status.

The UK, at the time of the 2010 Election, still had a Triple A rating from all the ratings agencies.

Either the Tories were telling porkies - shock,horror - and have done so every time they have repeated the phrase since, or all the ratings agencies were uniformly completely and utterly clueless about economics.

Please don't believe the latter over the former.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Errm How is it racist to recruit UK Homegrown UK Doctors first? That isn't racist..


It's the term "Replace" that has offended many people. Gives the impression foreign staff will be asked to leave at a time staff moral is an all time low. Suggesting UK trained staff may be fined for working outside the UK, and four years is a long time for a young person, will not help in the recruitment process.

No one would not welcome extra investment in training new Doctors, but to suggest they can be used to replace foreign ones is what I would expect from UKIP. What an insult to the hard working staff regardless of their country of origin.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> It's the term "Replace" that has offended many people. Gives the impression foreign staff will be asked to leave at a time staff moral is an all time low. Suggesting UK trained staff may be fined for working outside the UK, and four years is a long time for a young person, will not help in the recruitment process.
> 
> No one would not welcome extra investment in training new Doctors, but to suggest they can be used to replace foreign ones is what I would expect from UKIP. What an insult to the hard working staff regardless of their country of origin.
> View attachment 285755


Oh we are back to believing newspapers again 
4 years is nothing to a young person with there whole life ahead of them that is a ridiculous comment. So you'd rather run away from your debts then instead of paying for them and hope they don't catch up with you? Plus don't you think it's unfair that someone pays for your training and you then vanish half way across the world after the training without you paying back what is owed?

My comments aren't directed at you personally they are in general. It annoys me the people that use our system to free load and then go half way across the world to escape paying what is owed.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

porps said:


>


So silly, why would we deport geese, we need them for foie gras


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Arnie83 said:


> I'm not really getting involved in this, but I do wonder at how completely the Tories have managed to get this into the public consciousness.
> 
> The UK was not on the brink of bankruptcy.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure about the credit rating in 2010 but the Uk wasnt in a good state in 2009 . 2008 crash was the worst recession since the great depression . I'm not hot on ecomonics but we did have to borrow a lot hence how debt now. 
i know many people who were stuck in negative equity . 
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/23/uk-recession-timeline


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I didn't hear the bit where she (or anyone) said all doctors must return to the country of their birth. Frankly though as there's a worldwide shortage of trained doctors the ethical question of poaching medical staff does have to be considered.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> So silly, why would we deport geese, we need them for foie gras


:Woot:Jawdrop


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Oh we are back to believing newspapers again
> 4 years is nothing to a young person with there whole life ahead of them that is a ridiculous comment. So you'd rather run away from your debts then instead of paying for them and hope they don't catch up with you? Plus don't you think it's unfair that someone pays for your training and you then vanish half way across the world after the training without you paying back what is owed?
> 
> My comments aren't directed at you personally they are in general. It annoys me the people that use our system to free load and then go half way across the world to escape paying what is owed.


Surely Doctors who move abroad will pay what they need to through deduction wages? I wouldn't think those of such a responsible position would move abroad just to avoid paying debts!

As for believing papers I did say, "If there's any truth in this....".


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> I'm not sure about the credit rating in 2010 but the Uk wasnt in a good state in 2009 . 2008 crash was the worst recession since the great depression . I'm not hot on ecomonics but we did have to borrow a lot hence how debt now.
> i know many people who were stuck in negative equity .
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/oct/23/uk-recession-timeline


Absolutely no argument with anything you or the Grauniad say.

In macro-economics the government works in the opposite way to a household. We tighten our belts in tough times and spend in the good times. Sensible governments spend in tough times, in order to get back to growth, and spend less in the good times.

So we certainly did have to borrow a lot, because the global crash left us with two options - refloat the economy through public borrowing, or let it collapse. No-one in the western world wanted the latter (the only major political party that recommended letting the banks fail was the UK Tories).

Continued borrowing at the levels required to refloat the economy over an extended period would certainly have been a bad thing, but no-one was suggesting that we did that. Darling (no, not you!) was proposing to reduce spending over the 2010-15 Parliament to halve the deficit. Osborne promised to eradicate it completely in the same period. (In the event he just about halved it.)

By the time the election arrived, the UK economy was growing at 3% or so p.a. and beginning to generate the tax receipts which would have been used to pay off the deficit. It was pretty much on track until Osborne's brief dalliance with austerity killed growth for 2 years, which is why he missed every one of his economic targets until he resigned.

Sorry about the long-winded economics lesson BUT, the fact remains that the UK wasn't anywhere near bankrupt in 2010. (And that's leaving aside the picky fact that a country with its own currency can't technically go bankrupt: you can't run out of the money the printing of which you control!) But it was a great soundbite, backed up by Liam Byrne's backfiring 'joke', and repeated so often by the Tories that it has become accepted fact. It is, though, completely untrue.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Surely Doctors who move abroad will pay what they need to through deduction wages


Even if you mean they would still pay UK tax (which they wouldn't) you're missing the point completely. We need more doctors. Where's the sense in training more if we don't get the benefit of paying out for the training?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> If no agreement is reached in two years then we can walk away with no deal and let the WTO rules kick in.


Actually no it doesn't. It's not an automatic process to adopt WTO rules, they do not simply kick in. In addition, if you want a say on the rules it takes an average of 5 years to become a member of the WTO. Even then you are in the hands of unelected bureaucrats, unlike the EU were rules are determined by elected MEP's and elected governments.



noushka05 said:


> "You can have your own opinion you can't have your own FACTS."


Facts like labour are responsible for some of the worst debts for health trusts when they started privatising the NHS you mean.



stockwellcat said:


> world war 3 was going to break out if we voted to leave the EU.


That's a quote and lie from the leave campaign, Cameron never actually said that.



> I just feel sorry for those that have not accepted the Brexit vote


A lot of people never will as they still believe it will damage the UK. Say to the people on the border between Ireland and NI, that everything will simply slot into place or we'll just abandon things and everything will simply work. The leave campaign was built on lies and xenophobia. We've seen lots of feel good stories in the media. Bad news such as how research has already been hit gets swept under the carpet and anyone criticising or warning of consequences is called a traitor.



MiffyMoo said:


> It's a 4 year lock in, which, in the scheme of things is not much. It's a lot shorter than having to take out a £200,000 loan to fund your studies, as they do in the US.


A loan is one thing, indentured servitude is another. Retention should never be based on forcing people, it needs to be based on job satisfaction. Then again I suppose basic human rights are no longer guaranteed after BREXIT.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

havoc said:


> Even if you mean they would still pay UK tax (which they wouldn't) you're missing the point completely. We need more doctors. Where's the sense in training more if we don't get the benefit of paying out for the training?


I repeat - Not about needing more Doctors, it's the term they'll REPLACE foreign born ones that's offensive.

Goblin is spot on in his last paragraph above. By introducing dictatorial terms in a profession suffering from the lowest moral in decades will do nothing to help the recruitment process.

I've had my final say on the matter.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Actually no it doesn't. It's not an automatic process to adopt WTO rules, they do not simply kick in. In addition, if you want a say on the rules it takes an average of 5 years to become a member of the WTO. Even then you are in the hands of unelected bureaucrats, unlike the EU were rules are determined by elected MEP's and elected governments.
> 
> Facts like labour are responsible for some of the worst debts for health trusts when they started privatising the NHS you mean.
> 
> ...


I'd like to correct you, Cameron did say ww3 would break out or war would break out on the continent. I love how the remainers twist things to put down the Leavers (they are now saying the leave campaign ran project fear when it was Cameron that did, he was running the remain campaign on pure lies):

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/brexit-david-cameron-predicts-world-war

http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2...no-to-brexit-or-face-world-war-3-2804389.html

Cameron later denied saying everything he scaremongers about because he is a liar. He scaremongered through his entire campaign, it's called lying. He ran project fear through his entire campaign.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-a-timeline-of-remains-project-fear-campaign/

Project fear failed even the economists admitted they got things wrong (the so called experts):
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/post-brexit-economy-just-fine-economists-not-much/

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...it-eu-referendum-economy-project-fear?0p19G=c

What was project fear? Let's look at Wikipedia for the answers:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics)


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Actually no it doesn't. It's not an automatic process to adopt WTO rules, they do not simply kick in. In addition, if you want a say on the rules it takes an average of 5 years to become a member of the WTO. Even then you are in the hands of unelected bureaucrats, unlike the EU were rules are determined by elected MEP's and elected governments.
> 
> Facts like labour are responsible for some of the worst debts for health trusts when they started privatising the NHS you mean.
> 
> ...


I haven't ignored the Northern Ireland issue, I just thought I'd answer that separately.

I have relatives (family) in Northern Ireland and they all voted leave as well. Regarding the borders between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland they are going to where they can keep them open. The Republic of Ireland want a referendum to leave the EU if this isn't possible because basically they don't want to go back to the days of border controls. Although at the moment there isn't an appetite in the Republic of Ireland for a referendum. So this has turned into a wait and see situation.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> REPLACE foreign born ones that's offensive.


Was that actually said or is that press spin?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Actually no it doesn't. It's not an automatic process to adopt WTO rules, they do not simply kick in. In addition, if you want a say on the rules it takes an average of 5 years to become a member of the WTO. Even then you are in the hands of unelected bureaucrats, unlike the EU were rules are determined by elected MEP's and elected governments.
> 
> Facts like labour are responsible for some of the worst debts for health trusts when they started privatising the NHS you mean.
> 
> ...


Regarding WTO rules the UK helped set this up and is one of the founding members, we are already a member of this so if negotiations fail we would automatically fall back on WTO rules. Here is the legal stuff on WTO:
http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/int-trade.shtml


> *Both the individual Member States including the UK, and the EU itself, are parties to the WTO Agreements.* The respective legal powers of the EC (as it then was) and the Member States were ruled upon by the European Court of Justice in Op 1/94 _Re the Uruguay Round Agreements_ [1994] ECR I-5267. The Court rejected a contention by the European Commission that the EC had across-the-board competence to conclude the WTO Agreements in its own name. Although the core provisions of the WTO Agreements relating to trade in goods fell within the EC's exclusive competence under the common commercial policy, the Court ruled that other areas covered by the WTO Agreements relating to services (parts of the General Agreement on Trade in Services - GATS) and the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS) were outside the EC's competence or were areas where the EC's competence was shared with the Member States.





> There is no question of the UK having to leave the WTO or to re-apply for membership. *The UK is one of the original founding members of the WTO,* as laid down by Article XI(1) of the WTO Agreement:
> _Article XI
> Original Membership_
> 1. The contracting parties to GATT 1947 as of the date of entry into force of this Agreement, and the European Communities, which accept this Agreement and the Multilateral Trade Agreements and for which Schedules of Concessions and Commitments are annexed to GATT 1994 and for which Schedules of Specific Commitments are annexed to GATS shall become original Members of the WTO.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> Was that actually said or is that press spin?


It's press spin from the Independent I do believe. I watched his Speech and what he was talking about is if we recruit within our country and it works we won't need to recruit from abroad in the next 10 years. He didn't say foreign doctors would have to go home as mentioned back through the thread. Think logically on this issue as they will be in a contract.


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rona said:


> Was that actually said or is that press spin?


No it wasn't actually said afaict. Was was said was that Brexit would...

"...throw into sharp relief the number of doctors, nurses and healthcare assistants we need to import every year in order to sustain our health system."

"I think people will ask whether it is right when we are turning away bright British youngsters from medical school - who might get three A* [at A-level] but still can't get in - at the same time we are importing people from all over the world. I think it's a debate we need to have."


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Satori said:


> No it wasn't actually said afaict. Was was said was that Brexit would...
> 
> "...throw into sharp relief the number of doctors, nurses and healthcare assistants we need to import every year in order to sustain our health system."
> 
> "I think people will ask whether it is right when we are turning away bright British youngsters from medical school - who might get three A* [at A-level] but still can't get in - at the same time we are importing people from all over the world. I think it's a debate we need to have."


Somewhat different then?


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> I repeat - Not about needing more Doctors, it's the term they'll REPLACE foreign born ones that's offensive.


When you're in a hole; stop digging? :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Theresa May closes the Tory Party Conference this morning and it looks as if she is eyeing up the Centre ground of politics. She is to mention in her speech that the Centre ground of politics is up for grabs. I hope she does the right thing and move the Conservative Party to the centre ground?

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-sets-out-vision-for-a-new-centre-ground-10605561

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37556019


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Project fear failed even the economists admitted they got things wrong (the so called experts):
> http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/post-brexit-economy-just-fine-economists-not-much/


Does the term 'post Brexit' just mean after the referendum? If so then I'll go along with the idea that we may be fine. If it means post leaving the EU then that remains to be seen. We haven't left yet.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> I'd like to correct you, Cameron did say ww3 would break out or war would break out on the continent. I love how the remainers twist things to put down the Leavers (they are now saying the leave campaign ran project fear when it was Cameron that did, he was running the remain campaign on pure lies):
> 
> http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/brexit-david-cameron-predicts-world-war
> 
> http://beforeitsnews.com/politics/2...no-to-brexit-or-face-world-war-3-2804389.html


I've read the two links above, and can't find where Cameron said WW3 would break out, or that war 'would' break out on the continent. Can you highlight the actual quotes please?

I voted Remain in no small part because I think the continent's 70 years of peace and the coincident existence of the EU and its forerunners are not entirely unconnected. (You will no doubt disagree, but these are just unprovable opinions.)

I can see how a fragmenting Europe, where countries become competitors rather than cohabitors - look already at how the UK is talking about getting the best deal for Britain, and treating the negotiations as something to be won; "They need us more than we need them" - is one where tensions can increase through economic and social factors, such as recession and migration pressures. Without a coordinating body of which all are members, and without a common currency which ensures that conflict would trash the initiator's economy as surely as any other, the chances for that conflict increase. It wasn't a risk I was prepared to take just so we could ignore Johnny foreigner rules, and it is the point that Cameron was making.

To lie is to say something that you know to be factually incorrect. The above paragraph describes a situation that hopefully won't happen at all, but which certainly has no short-term timescale attached to it, and no certainty. When Cameron said it, he was hopefully wrong, but lying? No. Not by the definition of the word.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Goblin said:


> A loan is one thing, indentured servitude is another. Retention should never be based on forcing people, it needs to be based on job satisfaction. Then again I suppose basic human rights are no longer guaranteed after BREXIT.


Don't get someone else to pay your tuition fees if you're not willing to fulfill your contract.

Once again I ask, what is the point in us paying £200,000 to train someone up, who then promptly disappears off to live in another country? You would be screaming about how the Tories are wasting the NHS's money, so really they're damned if they do, they're damned if they don't.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Just to clear up the WTO issue the below link is a members list of which we are on and we are covered by GATT rules as well 1948.

We never left the WTO we have just been bound by EU rules since joining the EU and because we are one of the founding members of the WTO we can and will automatically fall back on WTO rules when we leave the EU if no deal is struck. We do not need to rejoin because we where an original founding member and still have membership to the WTO.

WTO Members List:
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org6_e.htm

GATT Members List:
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/gattmem_e.htm


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Is it really so terrible that we give baby doctors the chance to gain four years experience here before they have the chance to go and do whatever they want wherever they want? Whatever their union claims, this is not a badly paid occupation and the possible career paths are better than most.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> Is it really so terrible that we give baby doctors the chance to gain four years experience here before they have the chance to go and do whatever they want wherever they want? Whatever their union claims, this is not a badly paid occupation and the possible career paths are better than most.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

"Where am I?"
"Back in the UK",
"What do you want?"
"For you to stay".
"Whose side are you on?"
"That would be Tory.
. We want you to stay, you to stay, 
. YOU TO STAY!"
"You can't make me"
(up comes Rover)
. "By hook of thy crook, we will"
"Who are you?"
"I am Mr Hunt"
"Where's your No.1?"
. "You are Doctor Smith!"

"I AM NOT A DOCTOR, I AM A FREE MAN!"
. "Laughter".....


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> "Where am I?"
> "Back in the UK",
> "What do you want?"
> "For you to stay".
> ...


I have absolutely no idea what on earth this is


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> I have absolutely no idea what on earth this is


Or have I???


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

MiffyMoo said:


> I have absolutely no idea what on earth this is


Just a bit of satire, based on the excellent 1960s series "The Prisoner".
"Where am I?", "In the village" etc.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@KittenKong. I remember that and the weird ball thing. I preferred Patrick McGoohan in Danger man , so sauve!


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I think they should bring in compulsory service for anyone who is between 18-24, out of school and unemployed. Don't have a job or place in higher education within 6 months of leaving school? Get off your arse and go serve the country if you don't know how to use the education you received.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> I have absolutely no idea what on earth this is


I think it's kittenkong's last word on the matter - definitely this time


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)




----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Okay, looks like I was wong about the WTO. Still you pleased to know the UK is a member of an organisation run by unelected bureaucrats creating rules which we have to abide by as opposed to elected people in a democratic process.



stockwellcat said:


> I'd like to correct you, Cameron did say ww3 would break out or war would break out on the continent. I love how the remainers twist things to put down the Leavers (they are now saying the leave campaign ran project fear when it was Cameron that did, he was running the remain campaign on pure lies):


Links to media used to claim something isn't fact. Saying "...Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured..." is not saying BREXIT will cause WWIII.



> What was project fear? Let's look at Wikipedia for the answers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics)


Still waiting for what truths were in the leave campaign. You can harp on about project fear but it had some basis in facts and expert projections, unlike the blatent lies of the leave campaign. Unelected bureaucrats, we elected those who made decisions. Turkey flooding immigrants to the UK, wouldn't happen. What was the turkey joining lie if not playing on fear. Neither campaign covered itself in glory. Only one blatantly and knowingly lied rather than exaggerated.

Now we have a situation where we have to make the best of a bad situation. May seems to be trying to handle that and at least she's taking her time and minimising damage. Still media doesn't like talking about the negatives already occurring. Research grants have already been lost for example. Haven't seen anything in the media about inflation rates.

As for your comment on Northern Ireland, NI did not vote for leaving the EU. I also have relatives out there who can actually see the "border" and they are worried. Not simply a matter of doesn't matter, it will simply work out.



MiffyMoo said:


> Don't get someone else to pay your tuition fees if you're not willing to fulfill your contract.


So you are in favour of indentured servitude. Where terms and conditions can change negatively and you are still required to stay? Most employers keep personel not through threats which only damages morale but through incentives of better work conditions and pay. Normally work conditions are actually far more important than simply pay.


> Once again I ask, what is the point in us paying £200,000 to train someone up, who then promptly disappears off to live in another country?


The point is to have people who are happy to work in a progressive, well motivated NHS. What you are suggesting doesn't contribute to that.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Okay, looks like I was wong about the WTO. Still you pleased to know the *UK is a member of an organisation run by unelected bureaucrats *creating rules which we have to abide by as opposed to elected people in a democratic process.
> 
> Links to media used to claim something isn't fact. Saying "...Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured..." is not saying BREXIT will cause WWIII.
> 
> ...


Correct me if I am wrong but so is the EU (I am talking about unelected bureaucrats who can't agree to disagree), they where nicknamed the Eurocrats.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Okay, looks like I was wong about the WTO. Still you pleased to know the UK is a member of an organisation run by unelected bureaucrats creating rules which we have to abide by as opposed to elected people in a democratic process.
> 
> Links to media used to claim something isn't fact. Saying "...Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured..." is not saying BREXIT will cause WWIII.
> 
> ...


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Goblin said:


> So you are in favour of indentured servitude. Where terms and conditions can change negatively and you are still required to stay? Most employers keep personel not through threats which only damages morale but through incentives of better work conditions and pay. Normally work conditions are actually far more important than simply pay.
> 
> *The point is to have people who are happy to work in a progressive, well motivated NHS. What you are suggesting doesn't contribute to that*.


They are 2 totally different things. If we are spending all that money on trainees, who then disappear to a different country, for whatever reason, then we have to pay, again, to train someone up to replace them. In which case the NHS will not have enough money to be progressive. As I have said before, if they don't like the idea of working off their loan in 4 years flat, then don't take it. They are perfectly free to go elsewhere and pay for their own training.

How exactly would you propose the NHS go about training people up and not losing the huge amount of money that they have paid to train them? It's all very well banging on making it a lovely place to work, but that is not realistic. Not everyone loves where they work, however hard you try to make it a nice place. Do you honestly believe that the UK is the worst place to work, and everywhere else is just rosy? Not true https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...7e8948-7b83-11e5-beba-927fd8634498_story.html


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Theresa May closes the Tory Party Conference this morning and it looks as if she is eyeing up the Centre ground of politics. She is to mention in her speech that the Centre ground of politics is up for grabs. I hope she does the right thing and move the Conservative Party to the centre ground?]


No chance, as have Labour to the left the Tories have moved to the right, so much there's now little difference between them and UKIP. Perhaps it's not a coincidence their leader stood down.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Now I feel more confident that the UK will be "A Country That Works For Everyone".

Theresa May's closing Conservative Conference Speech was fantastic to say the least.

Now I know I have made the right decision. Theresa May has really fired me up and I feel alot more positive, what she has said makes complete sense. This has to be the best speech I have ever heard from a countries Leader, let alone a party leader.

I will put the speech up as soon as it's on YouTube.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Sorry got quote thing wrong! I was trying to quote stockwellcat but in trying to highlight bit I am interested in missed of who I'm actually quoting. One day I will get it right

Ok right I`ve got ask because I am genuinely confused and it will bug me all day trying to work it out 

I don`t understand what point your are making here

*Only 506,438 people voted in the leadership contest for that party in 2016 out of 9 million that backed the party in the last General Election. 
*
Could you possible explain why is an issue to you please, as far as I understand only party members get to vote in leadership elections. Do you think everyone who voted labour ( or any party) should be a member of that party before being allowed to vote? Do you think all electorate should have a vote on every party leader?
I am genuinely interested and have absolutely no issue with what party you or anyone else wish to support.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> No chance, as have Labour to the left the Tories have moved to the right, so much there's now little difference between them and UKIP. Perhaps it's not a coincidence their leader stood down.


The centre ground of politics is open ground and Theresa May has laid out how she is going to claim it in her closing speech at the Conservative Party Conference.

You really need to watch her speech. I will leave it up to you to watch.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but so is the EU


Eaily done.. you are wrong, pushing a lie propagated knowingly by the leave campaign. The "unelected bureaucrats" may draft legislation. They have no say in if any is adopted as that lies with those elected by the EU population.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

"The Centre ground is there for the taking".Gosh, that sounds so much like Margaret Thatcher.....

Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree. As an example the Home Secretary wanting firms to disclose how many foreign workers employed by firms in order to shame them in to not hiring UK born staff is extreme to say the least. Even one Tory MP called this "divisive".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37561035

I think the days of centre politics are at an end, both for Labour and the Tories.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)




----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you. As an example the Home Secretary wanting firms to disclose how many foreign workers employed by firms in order to shame them in to not hiring UK born staff is extreme to say the least. Even one Tory MP called this "divisive".


What next, foreigners need to start wearing yellow stars?


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> You really need to watch her speech. I will leave it up to you to watch.


Seems she's trying to attract the working class voters who defected to UKIP to me.

The most nauseating speech I've seen since Margaret Thatcher.

Anyone who believes the Tories are a party that works for everyone either wasn't around when Thatcher was PM, have short memories or benefited from the Thatcher era, mostly those south of Watford.

Did you know us Northerners die of ignorance and chips and old people who couldn't afford to heat their homes were told to wear wooly hats?

I'll never ever trust that party.....

EDIT- Seems I'm not the only one to have thought this....

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/pm_sh...focus_on_keeping_britain_in_the_single_market


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

@Goblin


> *As for your comment on Northern Ireland, NI did not vote for leaving the EU. I also have relatives out there who can actually see the "border" and they are worried. Not simply a matter of doesn't matter, it will simply work out.*


Are your relatives aware that if they where born in Northern Ireland before 2005 and have a full birth certificate they can apply for a full Irish passport. Having this passport gives them the right to claim full Irish Citizenship by just having an Irish Passport thus to stay in the EU. I found this out the other day as I was born in Northern Ireland and have this right. So yes I can claim dual nationalship if I wish and if it goes horribly wrong with Brexit fly over to Dublin and live in the Republic of Ireland thus be in the EU.  Good get out Claus isn't it 



> * I was born and am living in Northern Ireland. I don't hold any passport. Am I an Irish citizen?*
> *A*. If you were born in Ireland prior to 1 January 2005 then you are entitled to be an Irish citizen. If you were born on or after 1 January 2005 and one of your parents was an Irish or British citizen or was entitled to reside in the State or Northern Ireland without any restrictions on his or her residence then you have an entitlement to Irish citizenship. If this does not apply to your parents you may still have an entitlement to Irish citizenship if either of your parents, immediately preceding your birth, had reckonable residence in the island of Ireland of three years in the previous four years and neither parent was entitled to diplomatic immunity in the State. You don't have to obtain an Irish passport in order to be an Irish citizen (though having an Irish passport is of course a convenient way of showing that you are an Irish citizen).


Source of information: http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Page...ns about Irish Citizenship and Naturalisation


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm moving to Scotland.










Nicola Sturgeon.









Caroline: Conservatives are wolves attempting to put on sheep's clothing
Wednesday, October 5, 2016

Caroline has responded to Theresa May's speech..She said the Conservative party 'might now be wearing sheep's clothing, but they have the record and policy of wolves'.

She said:

"Theresa's May's attempt to position herself as a centrist is undermined by the extreme policies of her own Government. She has been a longstanding member of a cabinet that has overseen years of stagnating wages, the systematic dismantling of our NHS and toxic rhetoric on migration. The Conservative party might now be wearing sheep's clothing, but they have the record and policies of wolves.

"Today's attempted repositioning sounded like an election pitch, but without an election. If Theresa May is serious about handing power back to people then she must call a General Election to give the public a say on who leads the country at this most crucial of times."

ENDS


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I'm moving to Scotland.
> 
> View attachment 285893
> 
> ...


Oh she is making noises again (Nicola Sturgeon I mean).

Its funny that the Labour party are moaning as well.

Theresa May done a fantastic speech today and made a lot of valid points as well.

Thersea May has already said on a number of occasions no general election until 2020, so that clearly tells the other parties that she getting on with her job as prime minister.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Oh she is making noises again (Nicola Sturgeon I mean). Theresa May has already put her in her place.


And how bl***y dare she! So much for allowing Scots greater independence if voting to remain in the UK. They fell for that in much the same way many fell for the lies of the Leave campaign in the UK. Scotland voted to remain in the EU in a large majority, unlike the overall UK leave vote.

This reminds me of the way Thatcher experimented with the Poll Tax a year before it was introduced in the rest of the UK.

Fortunately as a Northerner I live not far from the Scottish border. Let's hope they have another independence referendum and win it.

May has no right to dictate to the Scottish people, after all the SNP have the majority vote in their parliament and I don't want to hear any crap from others to say it's part of the UK so they need to put up or shut up.
I've heard enough of that from May thank you very much.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> And how bl***y dare she! So much for allowing Scots greater independence if voting to remain in the UK. They fell for that in much the same way many fell for the lies of the Leave campaign in the UK. Scotland voted to remain in the EU in a large majority, unlike the overall UK vote.
> 
> This reminds me of the way Thatcher experimented with the Poll Tax a year before it was introduced in the rest of the UK.
> 
> ...


May is prepared to listen. Let Sturgeon call another referendum because the Scots want to remain in the UK they have no appetite for as second referendum.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> . Let Sturgeon call another referendum because the Scots want to remain in the UK they have no appetite for as second referendum.


Yes, I read that in "The Sun".
Funny to think those some 300+ miles away think they know the Scottish better than the Scottish themselves!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-devaluing-contribution-foreign-doctors-to-uk


Seen this response to Hunts xenophobic stance on making NHS 'self sufficient' from a 'non home-grown' doctor ?










And this lol


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Seen this response to Hunts xenophobic stance on making NHS 'self sufficient' from a 'non home-grown' doctor ?
> 
> View attachment 285896
> 
> ...


This comes across as very insulting. Its like you are insulting peoples intelligence and abilities to become doctors because they are British.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> @Goblin
> Are your relatives aware that if they where born in Northern Ireland before 2005 and have a full birth certificate they can apply for a full Irish passport.


You cannot be serious  You consider that the main issue.

As for the rest.. Don't agree with nouska05 a lot but in this, the current scapegoating is very much like Germany in the 1930's. Easy to blame minorities when the fault is with successive governments.

As for the NHS, no problem nouska, as soon as they can be replaced, all foreigners will be kicked out. Doesn't matter if they've lived here for decades contributing to society. They are not worth the same as a UK national. I have several german people I know who live and work in the UK, in one case married to an englishman. None are feeling comfortable with the xenophobia prominent and encouraged at the moment.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Little Brooke has something to say to Theresa May. Out of the mouth of babes . What gorgeous little girl with a social conscience.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> May is prepared to listen. Let Sturgeon call another referendum because the Scots want to remain in the UK they have no appetite for as second referendum.


If you remember, the difference for staying in U.K. was much smaller than the difference for staying in EU. I'm afraid the appetite for indy2 is growing and lets not forget that currently there's a large number of young ones who are unhappy with the result of EU referendum but weren't old enough to vote in the independence one. Well, they will be now.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

shadowmare said:


> If you remember, the difference for staying in U.K. was much smaller than the difference for staying in EU. I'm afraid the appetite for indy2 is growing and lets not forget that currently there's a large number of young ones who are unhappy with the result of EU referendum but weren't old enough to vote in the independence one. Well, they will be now.


Yes remember though parliament have to approve it and they said you had your say in 2014 and no to a second referendum.
Scotland has no veto either.
The EU said Scotland has to leave with the UK.
So what now then...


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> This comes across as very insulting. Its like you are insulting peoples intelligence and abilities to become doctors because they are British.


[/QUOTE]

No it doesn't. I know many excellent British doctors, but being British doesn't make them better than a doctor born overseas.

To suggest a British Doctor is superior is an insult!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> You cannot be serious  You consider that the main issue.
> 
> As for the rest.. Don't agree with nouska05 a lot but in this, the current scapegoating is very much like Germany in the 1930's. Easy to blame minorities when the fault is with successive governments.
> 
> As for the NHS, no problem nouska, as soon as they can be replaced, all foreigners will be kicked out. Doesn't matter if the've lived here for decades contributing to society. They are not worth the same as a UK national.


Suppose its a nice change to be on the same side of the debate lol

And I agree with everything you have just said.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Brilliant speech


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Brilliant speech


I know & she's only 5 years old.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

No it doesn't. I know many excellent British doctors, but being British doesn't make them better than a doctor born overseas.

*To suggest a British Doctor is superior is an insult!*[/QUOTE]
To suggest foreign doctors are is an insult to.
I suggest you calm down.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Suppose its a nice change to be on the same side of the debate lol
> 
> And I agree with everything you have just said.


Seconded!


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I'm moving to Scotland.
> 
> View attachment 285893
> 
> ...


Yes, exactly what the UK needs, more uncertainty! Caroline has zero idea of economics


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> No it doesn't. I know many excellent British doctors, but being British doesn't make them better than a doctor born overseas.
> 
> *To suggest a British Doctor is superior is an insult!*


To suggest foreign doctors are is an insult to.
I suggest you calm down.[/QUOTE]

Gawd, a Doctor is a doctor regardless of country of origin. They are most brilliant people. I never said foreign Doctors are superior! They have my equal respect. In the same sense I don't regard myself any better or worse than any of my colleagues regardless of country of origin. We are one big happy family and are treated as equals.

Now we have this divisive xenophobic rubbish from the Tories giving a good impression of UKIP.
Centre ground? My foot. I dread to think what foreign born people must be thinking, many of which have had years in the UK only to get the impression they are no longer welcome...

At least my conscience is clear: I didn't vote Tory, nor for Brexit....


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I didn't vote conservatives in the last election but have since decided to support them.
I voted brexit but in doing so this does not make me xenophobic or racist.
I find the tone of some remainers on here aggressive in tone. Just respect each others decisions. No one is right. No one is wrong.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Yes, exactly what the UK needs, more uncertainty! *Caroline has zero idea of economics*


Didn't you think the same about labour? :Hilarious


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Didn't you think the same about labour? :Hilarious


No, I give them a lot more credit than that, but I do think that they're quite happy to destabilise in an attempt to get into power. Have they demanded an election ASAP?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> No, I give them a lot more credit than that, but I do think that they're quite happy to destabilise in an attempt to get into power. Have they demanded an election ASAP?


Not the impression I got, you seemed to infer they were worse than the tories  As if that could be possible. I really wouldn't worry about the Greens lol


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Not the impression I got, you seemed to infer they were worse than the tories  As if that could be possible. I really wouldn't worry about the Greens lol


So you're basically trying to start an argument off a comment that I didn't make?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> So you're basically trying to start an argument off a comment that I didn't make?


Not starting any argument. I got the impression you trusted the tories over labour with the economy? If I misunderstood then I apologise.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Not starting any argument. I got the impression you trusted the tories over labour with the economy? If I misunderstood then I apologise.


My comment was about Caroline Lucas


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> I voted brexit but in doing so this does not make me xenophobic or racist.


Apathy whilst supporting nationalism based on xenophobia is still not a good combination. It encourages those who are racist into thinking it's acceptable. The major push for BREXIT was based on xenophobia, notably migrants.

So do you support companies having to declare foreign employees and if so, why?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I am not mentioning the following anymore:

Brexit
Tories/Conservatives
Labour
Theresa May
Corbyn
Scotland
Northern Ireland
Migrants
Immigration
Syria
The UK
There is too much aggression behind these issues from others.

I am keeping my opinion to myself. See you all after Brexit, I'll be down in the cat section.

I am done. Bye.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> I am keeping my opinion to myself.


For two minutes?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I'd rather companies were challenged on how many roles they have shifted "offshore" alongside the trends in their UK headcount. Completely nonsenscial to challenge them on legal recruitment.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Worth a read:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/05/the-tories-have-finally-become-ukip


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> I find the tone of some remainers on here aggressive in tone. Just respect each others decisions. No one is right. No one is wrong.


Sorry if you found my posts aggressive in tone. Just that matters I feel deeply passionate about are being taken from under our noses, matters such as equal opportunities for all we fought so hard for are being reversed. In addition I and many others are not fortunate to have another passport to move back within the EU should things go horribly wrong.

I'm not at all religious but the term, "Love thy neighbour as thyself" means a lot to me. The message we're getting is, "Love thy neighbour if they're British, sod everyone else" nowadays. This is sad.

I feel very strongly about this so, yes I do get very emotional.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Ooh nicely evaded @MiffyMoo lol

Neoliberal economics is killing our living world - & theres no economy on a dead planet  The greens policy is extremely sensible.

If the economy is a priority of yours, why on earth did you vote to brexit? https://www.ft.com/content/7508bf1e-8a46-11e6-8cb7-e7ada1d123b1


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Owen Jones* ‏@*OwenJones84* 4h4 hours ago

There is a special place in Hell reserved for privileged politicians who incite bigotry for political gain, and history will damn them.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Ooh nicely evaded @MiffyMoo lol
> 
> Neoliberal economics is killing our living world - & theres no economy on a dead planet  The greens policy is extremely sensible.
> 
> If the economy is a priority of yours, why on earth did you vote to brexit? https://www.ft.com/content/7508bf1e-8a46-11e6-8cb7-e7ada1d123b1


I'm avoiding yet another argument. You are purposely trying to push me into one and I'm just too tired of the constant bickering now. I said nothing about Labour and I do not appreciate yet another lecture from you, especially by completely changing everything to suit your own rhetoric


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Little Brooke has something to say to Theresa May. Out of the mouth of babes . What gorgeous little girl with a social conscience.


Gosh I find her rather precocious 

No it doesn't. I know many excellent British doctors, but being British doesn't make them better than a doctor born overseas.

To suggest a British Doctor is superior is an insult![/QUOTE]

@KittenKong I don't think anyone is saying British doctors are better than overseas doctors or vice versa just that we need to be less reliant on overseas doctors and train more ourselves. From the BBC News website

*The number of medical school places will increase by 25% from 2018 under plans to make England "self-sufficient" in training doctors.

The government's plan will see an expansion in training places from 6,000 to 7,500 a year.

Ministers believe increasing the number of home-grown doctors will be essential given the ageing population.

There is also concern it will become more difficult to recruit doctors trained abroad in the future.

About a quarter of the medical workforce is trained outside the UK, but the impact of Brexit and a global shortage of doctors could make it harder to recruit so many in the future.

Prime Minister Theresa May told the BBC: "We want to see the NHS able to recruit doctors from this country. We want to see more British doctors in the NHS."

The increase also comes after the government has spent a year at loggerheads with junior doctors over the pressures being placed on them to fill rota gaps.*



stockwellcat said:


> I am not mentioning the following anymore:
> 
> Brexit
> Tories/Conservatives
> ...


Why? Its just a debate and from what I've read you give as good as you get. If you are going to debate controversial subjects then expect it to get heated. You should have been here just after the election - it was a pretty hostile place to admit to being a Tory voter :Shy We are never all going to agree but I can't say as I've seen anything in this thread that has been personal or nasty. There is a reason they say never discuss politics or religion though :Hilarious and I'd add diet to that list too. Gets people very hot under the collar.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> I'm avoiding yet another argument. You are purposely trying to push me into one and I'm just too tired of the constant bickering now. I said nothing about Labour and I do not appreciate yet another lecture from you, especially by completely changing everything to suit your own rhetoric


And I've no idea what Caroline Lucas's knowledge of economics has to do with anything, but there you go.

I do know she has degree in in English literature while George Osborne has a degree in History , so like Gidiot, she has no qualification in economics. Unlike Gidiot, however, Caroline has the best interests of the planet, this country, its people & environment at heart & she listens to experts


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> And I've no idea what Caroline Lucas's knowledge of economics has to do with anything, but there you go.
> 
> I do know she has degree in in English literature while George Osborne has a degree in History , so like Gidiot, she has no qualification in economics. Unlike Gidiot, however, Caroline has the best interests of the planet, this country, its people & environment at heart & she listens to experts


Going way back to before you tried to derail it, I pointed out that we are in uncertain enough times without people demanding another election. The economics comes into that, the markets hate uncertainty


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Going way back to before you tried to derail it, I pointed out that we are in uncertain enough times without people demanding another election. The economics comes into that, the markets hate uncertainty


lol Its a debate, I responded to your post - its what people do when they don't agree with something. But tbh I don't think an election is a good idea right now either, not while people are blinded by nationalism & not for the reason you don't want one. The tories have been busy gerrymandering, most of the MSM are propagandist rags & mouth pieces for the government. Its going to take a huge awakening for the masses to realise migrants aren't responsible for the ills of this country - the government are & to make their vote count.

The markets hate uncertainty? The irony.

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/08/the-brexit-culprits-you-never-saw-coming

As I watched half a dozen Eastern European workers cutting zucchini and placing them on a slow-moving trailer in the small English village where I was brought up, one of the hard truths regarding the epic, self-defeating lunacy of Brexit came home to me: Britain's precarious food supply.

Under the European Union's right to the freedom of movement, some 250 Eastern European workers come here each year to pick vegetables-mostly onions, parsley, beans, Brussels sprouts, and cabbages-which are grown in the alluvial soil beside the River Avon. This is an sensible arrangement that suits both the farmer and migrant workers. But it was not always so. When I was a teenager, roaming the countryside with a .410-gauge shotgun or a fishing rod, I only ever came across one foreigner in the fields: Franz Reinwart, a Sudeten German from Czechoslovakia, who was brought to Britain as a P.O.W. during the last war and stayed on. The others were English and they came mostly from the local town in Worcestershire.

Franz was a gentle, good-looking man and a hard worker, too, much like his young successors from

Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, and Lithuania, who toil long hours in all weather and earn enough to make the summer trip to the U.K. worthwhile. About 60,000 seasonal workers come to Britain every year and it is fair to say that British farmers would be lost without them. More important, if Brexit goes ahead, they cannot hope to replace them with the local labor force, which has come to see this kind of back-breaking work as beneath itself, or, in any case, is probably not very good at it.

I have no idea whether this local farmer voted to stay or leave the E.U. in the referendum, or if he even voted at all. Yet it was often farmers, who need foreign workers-and the rural working class, who are reluctant to become agricultural laborers-who voted to "take their country back." Watching those men in the zucchini field this week, I wondered, not for the first time, how voters have become so blinded to their own interests

Among the multitude of calamities affecting everything from manufacturing to finance, the potential crisis in food has largely gone unnoticed. Not only must Britain bring in labor to produce its crops, but it also now imports more than 40 percent of its food from abroad. This cost has become more expensive since the Brexit vote as the value of the pound Sterling has declined to 1985 levels, even reaching parity with the Euro at one point this past week. As the cost of producing food increases, so will the price of importing it, given the decline of the pound and subsequent spike in fuel prices.

Britain already has a food crisis. One of the U.K.'s shameful little secrets is the huge number of food banks that sprang up after the 2008 depression-one charity alone has operated 445. Now Brexit seems likely only to increase food poverty. To preserve anything like the current living standards, Britain will quickly have to become much more self-sufficient.

Where will the labor come from? The farmers I talked to are hoping either for an arrangement that makes short-term visas available to Eastern European workers, or that Britain somehow continues to accept the free movement of people. Either way, you wonder exactly what rural communities thought they were gaining when they voted to leave Europe.

It has been only two months since the vote, and it is still very hard to assess the precise nature of the impact. Those who view the U.K.'s prospects negatively, as I do, are accused of talking the economy down through our pessimism. But those who see only a golden future for Britain outside the E.U.-and, incidentally, believe that Britain's ability to contest China for second place at the Olympic medal table is a good omen for our national life-are ignoring a wealth of reports that look forward to the years ahead with very little relish.

The second group cannot deny hard facts that have emerged since the vote, on June 23, and seem to be increasing daily. More than half of asset managers now plan to cut their holdings in U.K. companies. Businesses are much more cautious about hiring. The City of London, which some call the "giant suction
machine" and "dark star of the British economy," yet still produces a quarter of all of Britain's tax revenues, is slumping. Google and Amazon are considering leaving their massive operations as economists predict a permanent loss of 4 percent GDP-the equivalent to £75 billion. These are not some accidental correlation of unrelated developments occurring at the same time as the Brexit decision. They are as near to proof of cause and effect as you can wish for.









The production and purchase of food is where the U.K. is going to feel the bite first. There will be numerous explanations from the Brexiteers as to why it has absolutely nothing to do with leaving the E.U. These days, people across the western democracies are given to creating an account to suit their case that is far removed from reality

But it is striking that the people who voted in large numbers to leave the E.U. are those who will be first hurt and probably the worst hurt. Pensioners were easily the most enthusiastic Brexit voters, but they now face enormous problems: inflation is expected to hit 3 percent next year, which will affect the value of their savings as well as increase the already large deficit in the funding of pension schemes. "Whether or not Brexit is good for the U.K. economy, [Brexit] has certainly been calamitous so far for pension schemes," *Charles Cowling*, a director of JLT Employee Benefits recently noted in _The Independent._

Like the people in rural communities, pensioners have voted directly against their own well-being. They are also, I am sad to say, the people who probably least understood the interdependence between European business and labor, as well as the hyper-mobility of capital. That so many companies are considering leaving the U.K., or reducing their investments in the country, will have a calamitous effect on employment. Jobs will be lost among the very people who soaked up the nationalist nonsense espoused by *Donald Trump's* admirer, the former United Kingdom Independence Party leader *Nigel Farage*.

It is truly bizarre that Trump has called himself "Mr. Brexit" on Twitter (now he has learned what it stands for). Yet, in a way, it is unsurprising. He is tapping into the same crude nationalism and xenophobia that drowns out the reasonable voices of self-interest. One fascinating example has occurred in the newspaper industry. The national titles were split-in terms of circulation-with 82 percent of total coverage in favor of Brexit, perhaps the more sensationalist position. Six weeks after the Brexit vote, the highly respected media analyst *Claire Enders* revised her predictions for the decline in newspaper advertising from 15 percent in 2016 and 2017, to between 20 and 25 percent. If newspapers weren't so vital to democracy there would be something slightly satisfying about so many conservative scribblers shooting themselves in the foot.

There's a lot of denial, especially among Brexiteer journalists, who are snatching at the slightest piece of good news. _The London Standard_ ran a headline based on the latest Ipsos Mori poll suggesting that post-Brexit confidence was growing. But when you look at the poll in detail, you discover that optimism has declined by 15 points and that 43 per cent of people thought the economy would get worse.

There is much the same disdain for reality among the rich and powerful who supported the Leave campaign with money and endorsements-business figures like *James Dyson*, he of vacuum-cleaner fame; *Tim Martin,* of Wetherspoons pubs; and insurance millionaire *Arron Banks*-and many peers like *Lord Lawson*, *Lord Lamont*, *Lord Cavendish*, and *Viscount Ridley*. None of them will concede the dangers to the British economy or indeed to the United Kingdom, which may eventually break up because of a marked difference between the English, Scottish, and Northern Irish sentiments about Europe. Essentially, they leveraged the understandable discontent of people who had suffered since the 2008 depression for their own agenda, which runs from romantic isolationism to something much more sinister. Either way, they will be the very last to suffer from Brexit's catastrophic effects. They have their yachts and their estates. They will never notice the sudden rise in the price of food.

After I got back from the zucchini field, I looked up that great quote from Gore Vidal's 1992 _The Decline and Fall of the American Empire._ "As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too," he wrote. "Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action . . . Words are to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests." I wish he were alive today to see that last part so completely fulfilled in the United Kingdom.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Little Brooke has something to say to Theresa May. Out of the mouth of babes . What gorgeous little girl with a social conscience.]


Yes, I was impressed. This is the generation of the future, it gives us hope.

Re Noushka's excellent post #160 many British people currently go abroad to do seasonal work taking advantage of free movement within Europe. Now it looks if a hard Brexit occurs the UK will be re-enforced by a steel-like border akin to the Berlin Wall where only the wealthy can afford to travel. By rejecting the Norway/Swiss option Britain will become an island isolated from the rest of Europe and will become as significant to it as the Falkland Islands are to South America.

Just watch the price of your beloved re-introduced blue British passports shoot up to rates prohibitive to the average person.

The end of free movement will certainly keep immigrants out and British people in.

I hope May will re-consider but I won't build my hopes up.

Good piece from Tory MP Nick Herbert here

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/conservatives_must_be_beware_brexit_fundamentalism


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Gosh I find her rather precocious
> 
> No it doesn't. I know many excellent British doctors, but being British doesn't make them better than a doctor born overseas.
> 
> To suggest a British Doctor is superior is an insult!


@KittenKong I don't think anyone is saying British doctors are better than overseas doctors or vice versa just that we need to be less reliant on overseas doctors and train more ourselves.....
Prime Minister Theresa May told the BBC: "We want to see the NHS able to recruit doctors from this country. We want to see more British doctors in the NHS."

The increase also comes after the government has spent a year at loggerheads with junior doctors over the pressures being placed on them to fill ....[/QUOTE]

Yes, I see where you're coming from but the whole term of the conference was pure UKIP like xenophobia and the impression "British is best". Far too much emphasis on "British born", British this and that. Many bigots believe a black or Asian person isn't "British" despite being born here. Do they have to prove themselves by waving the flag, knowing the words by heart to the national anthem and producing their birth certificates? That wouldn't be required for a white person would it?!

Besides with staff moral being an all time low with dictatorial conditions implemented in their contracts this will do nothing to help the recruitment process.

To suggest British doctors can "replace" foreign born ones and suggestions to shame firms for employing overseas staff is disgusting in my view. I dread to think those doing such rewarding work will be thinking, they are no longer wanted or appreciated through the crime of not being British.

Hats off to Tory MP Neil Carmichael for his comments below.

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/hardworking_immigrants_should_be_celebrated_not_shamed

I'm too ashamed to call myself "British"


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> lol Its a debate, I responded to your post - its what people do when they don't agree with something. But tbh I don't think an election is a good idea right now either, not while people are blinded by nationalism & not for the reason you don't want one. The tories have been busy gerrymandering, most of the MSM are propagandist rags & mouth pieces for the government. Its going to take a huge awakening for the masses to realise migrants aren't responsible for the ills of this country - the government are & to make their vote count.
> 
> The markets hate uncertainty? The irony.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but once again I stopped reading about 1 paragraph in. Thank you for attempting to enrich my life with Vanity Fair, but I really don't have time to read the multitude of articles that you post as random back up to your arguments


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

havoc said:


> I think it's kittenkong's last word on the matter - definitely this time


Apparently not.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Besides with staff moral being an all time low


I'd agree with that


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Who cares about the foreigners who have devoted their lives caring for us & making us better or the cuts @KittenKong @Goblin. Our NHS will be quids in soon!

*Cut what you like, I'm about to get an extra £350m a week, says NHS*









*The NHS has said that the draconian budget cuts revealed today are 'no biggie' because the health service will be swimming in cash once Britain leaves the EU.*

"Yes, it sounds bad," says Jonathan Harrington, head of NHS England.

"But once we're out of Europe we'll be getting the extra £350m a week we were promised during the referendum campaign."

"If you have to use the NHS in the next couple of years, then you're probably screwed, but after that - we're golden.

"So If you can just keep your cancer at bay or make do with your old hip for a little bit longer, we would appreciate it - it's only temporary.

Harrington went on to explain that they already have detailed plans on how they will spend the £350m a week.

"Once we leave Europe, we'll have so much cash we won't know what to do with it all, but we've allocated quite a bit of it.

"I've got a shaky table in my office which I can't afford to repair at the moment, but after Brexit, I'll just stick a big roll of £50 notes underneath to level it off.

Leave voter Simon Williams believes that the temporary cuts to the NHS show that the country was correct to vote for Brexit.

He explained, "I voted to Leave because of the promise of an additional £350m a week for the NHS.

"And these short-term cuts show just why we'll need that extra cash in a couple of years.

"My brother voted to Remain because he said that the economy will be ruined and that all the politicians on the Leave side were 'bloody liars'.

"How naïve can you be?"


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Sorry, but once again I stopped reading about 1 paragraph in. Thank you for attempting to enrich my life with Vanity Fair, but I really don't have time to read the multitude of articles that you post as random back up to your arguments


I forgot, Guido Fawkes is more your cup of tea lol.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> @KittenKong I don't think anyone is saying British doctors are better than overseas doctors or vice versa just that we need to be less reliant on overseas doctors and train more ourselves.....
> Prime Minister Theresa May told the BBC: "We want to see the NHS able to recruit doctors from this country. We want to see more British doctors in the NHS."
> 
> The increase also comes after the government has spent a year at loggerheads with junior doctors over the pressures being placed on them to fill ....


Yes, I see where you're coming from but the whole term of the conference was pure UKIP like xenophobia and the impression "British is best". Far too much emphasis on "British born", British this and that. Many bigots believe a black or Asian person isn't "British" despite being born here. Do they have to prove themselves by waving the flag, knowing the words by heart to the national anthem and producing their birth certificates? That wouldn't be required for a white person would it?!

Besides with staff moral being an all time low with dictatorial conditions implemented in their contracts this will do nothing to help the recruitment process.

To suggest British doctors can "replace" foreign born ones and suggestions to shame firms for employing overseas staff is disgusting in my view. I dread to think those doing such rewarding work will be thinking, they are no longer wanted or appreciated through the crime of not being British.

Hats off to Tory MP Neil Carmichael for his comments below.

http://www.open-britain.co.uk/hardworking_immigrants_should_be_celebrated_not_shamed

I'm too ashamed to call myself "British"[/QUOTE]

I don't think its xenophobic to want to be more self sufficient. There are many areas where we need to learn to be less reliant on goods or staff from abroad and get back to being more self sufficient.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Who cares about the foreigners who have devoted their lives caring for us & making us better or the cuts @Goblin. Our NHS will be quids in soon!
> 
> *Cut what you like, I'm about to get an extra £350m a week, says NHS*
> 
> ...


Hmmm... don't forget that starting next year there will be extra 1,500 (correct the number if I'm wrong but can't be arsed to check what Hunt said) medical students. So that's 1,500 x £200k for their training? And then since they ALL will be definitely staying in U.K. For another 4 years that's extra 1,500 high salaries to pay. Im sure glad NHS and the economy is getting all that money coming in a couple of years!


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Who cares about the foreigners who have devoted their lives caring for us & making us better or the cuts @KittenKong @Goblin. Our NHS will be quids in soon!
> 
> *Cut what you like, I'm about to get an extra £350m a week, says NHS*
> 
> ...


Taken from "Viz" comic or did one of the pro Brexit papers really print this?"


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Bear in mind that less well off countries are suffering from a "brain drain " , e.g some countries are training doctors and nurses then they leave and come to the UK . We benefit from it but their own countries lose out.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I forgot, Guido Fawkes is more your cup of tea lol.


Far more Tatler, darling


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> Bear in mind that less well off countries are suffering from a "brain drain " , e.g some countries are training doctors and nurses then they leave and come to the UK . We benefit from it but their own countries lose out.


Yes, that is true. However, I find that most people who use this argument these days are not genuine in their "concern" over the other countries. The movement of doctors also allows professionals to gain more knowledge and learn from skill full peers outside their country and take the acquired skills back home. 
Their problem could be easily fixed with Hunts proposed solution: anyone going into such highly required professions should have to sign to angreement of working in the country for several years. But wait... what will happen after several years? If the environment is not suitable, they will still instinctively look for a better place to live and work. Maybe extend that enforced period of time to 10 years? 15? 20? Alternatively, all "rich" countries could just put up a blanket ban on any professionals trying to come in from "poorer" countries! What a wonderful brave new world would that be...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think its xenophobic to want to be more self sufficient. There are many areas where we need to learn to be less reliant on goods or staff from abroad and get back to being more self sufficient.


No it's not. That's not the way it's all being phrased though is it. It's about scapegoating a minority for the problems of the majority caused by underfunding by multiple governments. It's not about spending more on the NHS. It's we need to replace foreign doctors. It's not about we need to ensure jobs are available, it's we need to ensure those foreign workers don't steal our jobs.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Taken from "Viz" comic or did one of the pro Brexit papers really print this?"


It came from Newsthump, which is UK Spoof News & satire


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

shadowmare said:


> Yes, that is true. However, I find that most people who use this argument these days are not genuine in their "concern" over the other countries. .


I'm not sure how people's "concern" not being genuine affects the argument, its either true or its not . The people who are genuinely concerned are the ones who live in the countries who lose out and the officials, Ive seen on TV interviews seemed almost angry at us for poaching their trained professionals.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Goblin said:


> No it's not. That's not the way it's all being phrased though is it. It's about scapegoating a minority for the problems of the majority caused by underfunding by multiple governments. It's not about spending more on the NHS. It's we need to replace foreign doctors. It's not about we need to ensure jobs are available, it's we need to ensure those foreign workers don't steal our jobs.


That's very well put and is how it's coming over. I stand by what I said earlier. I'm pleased Tory MP Neil Carmichael seems to think this way too.

Whatever your views please spare a thought for those hard working people who pay into the tax system, have made the UK their home and have made many friends here. They must be feeling awful having been accused of stealing jobs from British born people, the age old accusation from the far right, how people will start to look at them with resentment not respect. Their crime? They're not British......


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> No it's not. That's not the way it's all being phrased though is it. It's about scapegoating a minority for the problems of the majority caused by underfunding by multiple governments. It's not about spending more on the NHS. It's we need to replace foreign doctors. It's not about we need to ensure jobs are available, it's we need to ensure those foreign workers don't steal our jobs.


That may be your interpretation but it isn't mine. I haven't heard anyone scapegoating minorities either, just saying that we need to train more British born doctors (many of whom may well be from diverse ethnic backgrounds) and that we need to know how many non British staff are being employed so we have a better idea of the industries where we need to train more staff so as not to be reliant on staff from overseas all the time.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I like the use of "British born", "British population", "British people"....
Where do you draw the line? Do you have to have a British passport if you want to apply for one of these "British jobs"? If little Pavel's family came to UK 2 years ago and his parents are working in good, secure jobs here, can his older brother Tomek apply to study medicine when he finishes school in a couple of years? Will he be able to get a doctor's job? Or is he seen by the government as a foreign born national stealing a British born person's right to be a doctor? Even if Tomek's exam grades are better and he plans to stay in UK for the rest of his life? If Pavel wants to be a doctor, but still has 10 years of school to finish... will he by that time be considered more British than his brother? Or is he still stealing a job because he's not British born and doesn't have a British passport? If I had the opportunity to become a doctor in England, do I have the "right" as even though I lived in Scotland for 8 years, I am not British born and don't have the citizenship and am not planning to officially apply for it as I don't have the extra £1k to do this and would have to give up my actual European passport... My friend who has British parents but himself was born and raised in Belgium, has finished medical school in England last year. Is it ok for him to apply for a job now that he's back from volunteering abroad? Is he British enough? Or is he considered a foreign born doctor?
And finally, would you rather know that people graduating from the medical school in 4 years will be those, who have the best skills, or would you rather have your skull opened by a guy who got on the course only because the government made more places available, filled them in with people who normally wouldn't be good enough for the normal 6000 places intake and a lot of truly great candidates felt too foreign to apply or simply didn't want to be working with Hunt's new plans in place.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Excellent reply Shadowmare. I couldn't comment myself as I really was lost for words.....


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> That may be your interpretation but it isn't mine. I haven't heard anyone scapegoating minorities either


Which shows the danger when people don't see it and simply accept it. How often have I heard that foreigners take all the jobs yet at the same time take all the money for benefits, clog up schools and the NHS so "British" people don't get what they deserve. What else do you call the need for companies to register all foreigners they employ?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Absolutely Goblin. It's the age old far right argument of foreigners taking jobs from British people, promoted by far right fringe parties now to be adopted by a mainstream one.

They want to know (and shame) firms that employ "Non British" people. Will it be black or Asian, gay and lesbian next? 

It's the start of something very dangerous and divisive.......


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

shadowmare said:


> Hmmm... don't forget that starting next year there will be extra 1,500 (correct the number if I'm wrong but can't be arsed to check what Hunt said) medical students. So that's 1,500 x £200k for their training? And then since they ALL will be definitely staying in U.K. For another 4 years that's extra 1,500 high salaries to pay. Im sure glad NHS and the economy is getting all that money coming in a couple of years!


I know, I don't know why those remoaners are always so negative Just wait till we're GREAT again!





KittenKong said:


> Taken from "Viz" comic or did one of the pro Brexit papers really print this?"


I'm not sure now - they're all as silly as each other lol


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Which shows the danger when people don't see it and simply accept it. How often have I heard that foreigners take all the jobs yet at the same time take all the money for benefits, clog up schools and the NHS so "British" people don't get what they deserve. What else do you call the need for companies to register all foreigners they employ?


I have no idea how often you have heard it but I think yet again hysteria is being whipped up. Asking companies to register the nationality of the staff they employ is not racist, how else will we know who is employed and in what sectors we are short of staff so that we know what resources are needed to train what type of workers in the future? If for instance every plumbing company in the country is employing a high percentage of staff from overseas then we should be looking at why and seeing what needs to be done to train more plumbers from this country - those people might well be from ethnic minorities, be gay or transgender or white but if we need more plumbers then we should start training more not just rely on bringing more over from Poland etc.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

How many plumbers do you know who are headhunted from poland? You really are digging up excuses with that one. If they were, with efficient immigration we would know what people were coming into the country and what for wouldn't we


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I have no idea how often you have heard it but I think yet again hysteria is being whipped up. Asking companies to register the nationality of the staff they employ is not racist, how else will we know who is employed and in what sectors we are short of staff so that we know what resources are needed to train what type of workers in the future? If for instance every plumbing company in the country is employing a high percentage of staff from overseas then we should be looking at why and seeing what needs to be done to train more plumbers from this country - those people might well be from ethnic minorities, be gay or transgender or white but if we need more plumbers then we should start training more not just rely on bringing more over from Poland etc.


Seriously, what does "employ a high percentage of staff from overseas" even mean? There's very few professionals who can get a job in another country without going through proper application process. Whenever I hear this, i get an image of someone from a company calling someone to another country and within a week they get a van full of employees from overseas... most foreign born workers in any job first come here, get a NI number and apply for jobs. You know how I became an employed immigrant? I went on gumtree and made calls, sent emails, went into town and handed out my CV that only contained educational information. How I got my first job? I got an interview and had it together with other 13 candidates. I followed the same process for my next 3 jobs.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> How many plumbers do you know who are headhunted from poland? You really are digging up excuses with that one. If they were, with efficient immigration we would know what people were coming into the country and what for wouldn't we


I used it as an example (clue was in "for instance") and I didn't say anything about being headhunted. Yes it would be great to have an efficient immigration service with efficient border controls so that we do know exactly who is here and what they are doing.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

shadowmare said:


> Seriously, what does "employ a high percentage of staff from overseas" even mean? There's very few professionals who can get a job in another country without going through proper application process. Whenever I hear this, i get an image of someone from a company calling someone to another country and within a week they get a van full of employees from overseas... most foreign born workers in any job first come here, get a NI number and apply for jobs. You know how I became an employed immigrant? I went on gumtree and made calls, sent emails, went into town and handed out my CV that only contained educational information. How I got my first job? I got an interview and had it together with other 13 candidates. I followed the same process for my next 3 jobs.


Well it means employ a high percentage of staff not from this country, what is ambiguous about that? I didn't mention application processes and I wasn't only talking about professionals. I was simply offering an example (plumbers) could just have easily been builders or chefs and saying if we have a shortage of those trained staff so that we are relying on a high percentage of staff from abroad then perhaps we should be looking at why and how we can train more UK citizens (regardless of race/religion/sexuality) to do those jobs.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

James O'Brien shows how close we are sliding towards fascism. This is chilling.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-amber-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/

James O'Brien Compares Amber Rudd's Speech To Hitler's Words

*
This startling observation stopped James O'Brien in his tracks - the eerie similarities between Amber Rudd's plan to list foreign workers and a passage in Mein Kampf.*

James read a portion of the book, written by Adolf Hitler, saying it was actually a part of the Home Secretary's speech.

Speaking on his LBC show, he said: "I want to read you something from Amber Rudd's speech yesterday. 'For the state must draw a sharp line of distinction between those who, as members of the nation, are the foundation and support of its existence and greatness, and those who are domiciled in the state, simply as earners of their livelihood there.'

"Very important that firms declare how much of their workforce is foreign because they're just domiciled in this state simply as earners of their livelihood there. They're not members of the nation, they're not members of the foundation and the support of the nation's existence and greatness.

You have to have a sharp line of distinction between those who are members of the nation and those who are just domiciled here as earners of their livelihoods.

*"No, that wasn't from Amber Rudd's speech yesterday, I'm really sorry, that's from Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler

*









"A sharp line of distinction between those who as members of the nation are the foundation and support of its existence and those who are domiciled in the state simply as earners of their livelihood here. Do you recognise that need for a sharp distinction? Do you feel it? Do you applaud that today?

"Do you cheer it because you've heard some meaningless anecdote about plasterer whose wages have gone up by roughly the same percentage over the last ten or fifteen years that almost everybody else in the British workforce has? You see the need for that sharp line of distinction? Are you going to swallow that today?

"A sharp line of distinction between those who are the foundation and support of the nation's existence and greatness. And those, like almost everybody I've encountered so far today, who were just domiciled in the states simply as earners of their livelihood here. What do you think will come next?

"If you're going to have a sharp line of distinction between people born here and people who just work here, you're enacting chapter two of Mein Kempf. Strange times."


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Goblin said:


> How many plumbers do you know who are headhunted from poland? You really are digging up excuses with that one. If they were, with efficient immigration we would know what people were coming into the country and what for wouldn't we


 I think firms advertise job vacancies in other countries , I don't know if that means the same as headhunted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-the-EU-at-taxpayers-expense-it-emerges.html


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

I liked the bit in May's speech where she said ...



> I want us to be a country where it doesn't matter *where you were born*, who your parents are, where you went to school, what your accent sounds like, what god you worship, whether you're a man or a woman, gay or straight, or black or white. *All that should matter is the talent you have and how hard you're prepared to work*.


... on the same day that her Home Secretary called for naming and shaming of companies who employed too many migrant workers.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Goblin said:


> How many plumbers do you know who are headhunted from poland? You really are digging up excuses with that one. If they were, with efficient immigration we would know what people were coming into the country and what for wouldn't we


A few years ago we had a massive shortage of Plumbers (look it up). The government started a very similar training scheme to what they are proposing for doctors and we no longer have a shortage. Obviously that was a much quicker turn around time scale but it did happen and we did headhunt and offer incentives in other countries to cover the shortage

http://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...ves-the-eu-what-happens-to-the-polish-plumber


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Which shows the danger when people don't see it and simply accept it.


I don't see it.

If only we ignorant Brexit supporters had your perspicacity.

Sigh.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*HaveIGotNewsForYou Verified account*

The Treasury insists that although the pound 
has hit a 31-year low against the dollar, it's still holding its own against the penny

:Hilarious


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> I think firms advertise job vacancies in other countries , I don't know if that means the same as headhunted.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-the-EU-at-taxpayers-expense-it-emerges.html


Well, the author of the article should be feeling better now, as 3 years later Germany is offering 4 times more jobs than UK  Also, seems like there's plenty of jobs going in Northern Ireland.

It's internet. The same way as EU people can look up jobs in UK, UK citizens can look up jobs abroad. No one is stopping anyone. I found my second job on Gumtree while visiting my parents back in Belgium. Sent out a few applications and went to interviews when I came back. I find it funny when people start talking about this. The jobs are there. The internet and newspapers are there to search for a job. You can print off CV and go from place to place to hand it out. Some just seem to be under the impression that many employers have some secret ways of informing all of these foreigners about job opportunities.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> If for instance every plumbing company in the country is employing a high percentage of staff from overseas then we should be looking at why and seeing what needs to be done to train more plumbers from this country - those people might well be from ethnic minorities, be gay or transgender or white but if we need more plumbers then we should start training more not just rely on bringing more over from Poland etc.


And why shouldn't a "British" plumber move to Spain for example if they want to? I can go on and on. Not only are overseas people are told they're no longer welcome and will be replaced ASAP British people will be prevented from moving too unless they're very rich.

I repeat, many racist bigots don't recognise black and Asian people as being "British" whether born in the UK or not. Such discrimination will inevitably increase.

This is the 21st century for heavens sake, not 1930s Germany.

I dread to think what forum members overseas think of some of the comments here.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*GeorgeMonbiot*‏@*GeorgeMonbiot* 2h2 hours ago

_T May on Wednesday: people are "not prepared to be ignored any more"

T May on Thursday: we'll ignore the people_:
*
Fracking given UK go-ahead as Lancashire council rejection overturned*

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...as-lancashire-council-rejection-is-overturned

Yet more proof (as if more were needed!) we have an extremely dangerous government representing only the 1%..


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Yet more proof (as if more were needed!) we have an extremely dangerous government representing only the 1%..


Absolutely. Without the EU to get them to toe the line they can do anything they like.
No human rights for much longer either....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> And why shouldn't a "British" plumber move to Spain for example if they want to? I can go on and on. Not only are overseas people are told they're no longer welcome and will be replaced ASAP British people will be prevented from moving too unless they're very rich.
> 
> I repeat, many racist bigots don't recognise black and Asian people as being "British" whether born in the UK or not. Such discrimination will inevitably increase.
> 
> ...


I hope they will accept that discussing immigration is fine and not racist and be glad that we live in a democracy where a vote was held and the government are going to implement the result of that vote. Of course there are racist bigots who don't recognise black and Asian people as being British but they are in the minority and its totally unfair to judge everyone who wants out of the EU as singing from the same song sheet as them. You are a Labour voter - were you accusing Gordon Brown of being a racist bigot when he campaigned for British Jobs for British Workers? It is wrong to ignore the concerns of people about immigration and dismiss them as "bigots" - oh yes come to think of it Gordon Brown did just that and got caught calling an elderly lady (long time labour supporter) who wanted to discuss immigration a bigot.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You are a Labour voter - were you accusing Gordon Brown of being a racist bigot when he campaigned for British Jobs for British Workers? "


No I did not like that though I don't call him a racist bigot. He was appealing to the populist vote. Either way it was ill advised.

I can understand people calling him a hypocrite after a voter was labeled a "Bigot" after coming out with a statement like the above.

My political loyalties are more towards a party north of the border nowadays.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> No I did not like that though I don't call him a racist bigot. He was appealing to the populist vote. Either way it was ill advised.
> 
> I can understand people calling him a hypocrite after a voter was labeled a "Bigot" after coming out with a statement like the above.
> 
> My political loyalties are more towards a party north of the border nowadays.


But In a lot of ways I agree with Gordon,


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> A few years ago we had a massive shortage of Plumbers (look it up). The government started a very similar training scheme to what they are proposing for doctors and we no longer have a shortage. Obviously that was a much quicker turn around time scale but it did happen and we did headhunt and offer incentives in other countries to cover the shortage
> 
> http://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...ves-the-eu-what-happens-to-the-polish-plumber


Your link doesn't match your argument. Can't find anything showing shortage and introduction of new schemes. Did find http://gbconstructiontraining.com/ which was interesting. Are we also going to lock plumbers into a 4 years minimum contract?



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I hope they will accept that discussing immigration is fine and not racist


No immigration is not a racist issue by itself. Nothing wrong with limiting numbers. It becomes racist when fear is used and foreigners are used as a scapegoat for political purposes. You said it yourself, wouldn't it be nice is immigration were efficient. Is it acceptable to place blame on foreigners for failures of the government? When you start to isolate and highlight foreigners as though they are doing something wrong simply for existing in the country it becomes an issue. When the UK eventually leaves the EU what's going to happen, anyone foreign who can be replaced gets the gestapo round to make sure they leave the country? What if they don't have anywhere to go.. how about a camp... It all starts with small steps.

Love the BREXIT comment Satori as it shows the mentality. It's no longer simply a BREXIT issue. Problem is the Tory's see being anti-foreigner as a support winner as well.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Your link doesn't match your argument. Can't find anything showing shortage and introduction of new schemes. Did find http://gbconstructiontraining.com/ which was interesting. Are we also going to lock plumbers into a 4 years minimum contract?


You said


Goblin said:


> How many plumbers do you know who are headhunted from poland


So I just gave the link to show that there was a high possibility that they were head hunted

There is still a shortage in many building trades, though I don't think plumbers are now
https://nationaltradesmen.co.uk/blog/construction-firms-urged-to-apply-to-citb-for-training-grants/

Loads of grants and funding made available
http://www.citb.co.uk/levy-grant/claiming-grants-available/

I don't know the ins and outs of the terms of funding. Maybe you want to hunt the links to find out


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> But In a lot of ways I agree with Gordon,


Which bit? British Jobs for British Workers? or calling the lady a bigot for daring to ask him about immigration?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> No immigration is not a racist issue by itself. Nothing wrong with limiting numbers. It becomes racist when fear is used and foreigners are used as a scapegoat for political purposes. You said it yourself, wouldn't it be nice is immigration were efficient. Is it acceptable to place blame on foreigners for failures of the government? When you start to isolate and highlight foreigners as though they are doing something wrong simply for existing in the country it becomes an issue. When the UK eventually leaves the EU what's going to happen, anyone foreign who can be replaced gets the gestapo round to make sure they leave the country? What if they don't have anywhere to go.. how about a camp... It all starts with small steps.
> .


No it isn't acceptable to place blame on foreigners for failures of the government - who said it was? Who isolated and highlighted foreigners as though they are doing something wrong simply by existing in this country? I assume foreign workers will need to apply for visas or do you mean illegal immigrants? I am not aware of any gestapo here in the UK.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Which bit? *British Jobs for British Workers?* or calling the lady a bigot for daring to ask him about immigration?


This bit!!!


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Just popped to my mind: How will Jeremy Hunt make sure that the medical students not only stay in UK but also go work as doctors? Will he enforce the same fine on a guy who decides to rather just work in academia, research or open up a pub where doctors get free pints after a saturday-sunday shift and throw darts at a print off of Hunt's face? I hear the #*whatahunt* is getting extremely popular among medical professionals online and in real life 

Amber Rudd should probably start clamping down on the biggest companies in UK who not only employ foreign born employees, but also pay them ridiculous amount of money - the football clubs. Just think how many jobs are stolen and there's definitely plenty of home grown footballers on this island! Name and shame I say!


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Well said Nicola Sturgeon. I agree with every word.

http://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_tory_conference


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Well said Nicola Sturgeon. I agree with every word.
> 
> http://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_tory_conference


Yes, shes bang on! How I wish we lived in Scotland.

Have you seen her joint statement with Caroline Lucas & Leanne Woods?

http://www.snp.org/cross_party_statement_on_resisting_the_tories_toxic_politics









_Below is a joint statement signed by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, the Leader of Plaid Cymru Leanne Wood, and Caroline Lucas and Jonathan Bartley, the co-leaders of the Green Party calling for progressive parties to work together to resist the 'Tories' toxic politics'._

The countries of the United Kingdom face a spiralling political and economic crisis. At the top of the Conservative Party, the narrow vote in favour of leaving the EU has now been interpreted as the pretext for a drastic cutting of ties with Europe, which would have dire economic results - and as an excuse for the most toxic rhetoric on immigration we have seen from any government in living memory.

This is a profoundly moral question which gets to the heart of what sort of country we think we live in. We will not tolerate the contribution of people from overseas to our NHS being called into question, or a new version of the divisive rhetoric of 'British jobs for British workers'. Neither will we allow the people of these islands, no matter how they voted on June 23rd, to be presented as a reactionary, xenophobic mass whose only concern is somehow taking the UK back to a lost imperial age. At a time of increasing violence and tension, we will call out the actions of politicians who threaten to enflame those same things.

This is not a time for parties to play games, or meekly respect the tired convention whereby they do not break cover during each other's conferences. It is an occasion for us to restate the importance of working together to resist the Tories' toxic politics, and make the case for a better future for our people and communities. We will do this by continuing to work and campaign with the fierce sense of urgency this political moment demands


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Well said Nicola Sturgeon. I agree with every word.
> 
> http://www.snp.org/nicola_sturgeon_tory_conference


All the time while pillaging her own pensioners


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rona said:


> All the time while pillaging her own pensioners


and the tories are doing it to ours, it's out time the pensions were brought in line with the LIVING WAGE.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm so shocked that many can't even recognise the governments blatant xenophobia. What terrifying times we are living in. Jeezus Christ.


The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism 

Looks like the tories are well on track, they tick most of these boxes.

http://www.rense.com/general37/fascism.htm

.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> All the time while pillaging her own pensioners





Happy Paws said:


> and the tories are doing it to ours, it's out time the pensions were brought in line with the LIVING WAGE.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tory-liam-fox-calls-savage-6576145#ICID=sharebar_twitter


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I'm so shocked that many can't even recognise the governments blatant xenophobia. What terrifying times we are living in. Jeezus Christ.
> 
> 
> The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
> ...


Would you like to point out which of those boxes we tick? I don't see many


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> No it isn't acceptable to place blame on foreigners for failures of the government - who said it was? Who isolated and highlighted foreigners as though they are doing something wrong simply by existing in this country? I assume foreign workers will need to apply for visas or do you mean illegal immigrants? I am not aware of any gestapo here in the UK.


Really, you haven't listened to the Tory conference? There weren't any gestapo in Germany either to start with.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

The problem with pensions is not all of us paid into private pensions, it was really done so much when we were at work has it's been over the 20 or years so, so most of our money comes from the state and the small pension we have of pur own keeps getting smaller as we don't get interest on our savings anymore.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> Would you like to point out which of those boxes we tick? I don't see many


Wow, really?

1 partially (slogans), 2, 3, 7, heading towards 9 , 10, 13, 14 - currently under investigation.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I'm so shocked that many can't even recognise the governments blatant xenophobia. What terrifying times we live in.
> .


Absolutely. Just as I was about to withdraw into a period of mourning the loss of a country once known for its compassion I find a politician who speaks my language. This is Nicola Sturgeon.

Indeed immigrants in Tory Britain are now the new "Enemy Within". Yes, I know us EU supporting remainers are the new, "Moaning Minnies". Fox has already commented about "Lazy British Businesses". Indeed they are ready to be blamed should hard Brexit go wrong and they collapse, just as the 2million+ added to the dole queue were blamed for their predicament in the '80s and were told to get on their bikes to where the jobs were....


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Wow, really?
> 
> 1 partially (slogans), 2, 3, 7, heading towards 9 , 10, 13, 14 - currently under investigation.


1. Extremely minor, and show me which party doesn't use slogans
2.


> torture, summary executions, assassinations


 Really?
3. I'll give you that one, it's not a message many of us are happy with
7. I really can't say that we're obsessed with national security. In fact, I would quite like to see more police on the streets
9. I'm afraid this is across every party
10. There is absolutely no way you can argue that our Unions have been eliminated or are severely suppressed
13. You mean like SNP MP Corri Wilson who employed her boyfriend, son and daughter?
14. It is just laughable that you have put this in here. Please explain how you think the Tories have been running fraudulent campaigns. And please don't latch onto "smear campaigns" as I would love to see a party who doesn't use that tactic in the run up to elections (in fact, a huge bug bear of mine - I far prefer to be told what you can do for us, rather than what the other party can't)


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Really, you haven't listened to the Tory conference? There weren't any gestapo in Germany either to start with.


So now we have a secret political police force who are going to be knocking on doors in the night and eliminating anyone who doesn't agree with the Tories


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

MiffyMoo said:


> 1. Extremely minor, and show me which party doesn't use slogans
> 2. Really?
> 3. I'll give you that one, it's not a message many of us are happy with
> 7. I really can't say that we're obsessed with national security. In fact, I would quite like to see more police on the streets
> ...


1.The Red Flag
3. Who has said anyone should be eliminated?
13. JC has appointed many of his old cronies to the cabinet including making his ex girlfriend shadow home secretary :Hilarious


----------



## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

When the hurlyburly's done.....










Looks like Act 1, Scene 1 of Macbeth

The three most annoying women this side of the Atlantic.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> 13. JC has appointed many of his old cronies to the cabinet including making his ex girlfriend shadow home secretary :Hilarious


Corbyn allegedly divorced his wife for sending his kids to private school as its against his principles and then elects his ex lover who sent her kids to private school as Shadow home secretary !  
Do we really want these highly principled hypocrites running the country !


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Magnus said:


> The three most annoying women this side of the Atlantic.


Not quite......I think Angela Eagle tops them 

As does Diane Abbott, the one who has a persecution complex.

Close run thing though, very close


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism [/SIZE]
> 
> Looks like the tories are well on track, they tick most of these boxes.
> 
> .


They most certainly do. To think May and her far right version of the Tory party weren't even voted in to office.

It's the Tory equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn replacing Tony Blair during his time as PM.

People were warned this would happen in the event of a Brexit vote.

To these eyes Project Fear is fast becoming Project Fact.....


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> They most certainly do. To think May and her far right version of the Tory party weren't even voted in to office.
> 
> It's the Tory equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn replacing Tony Blair during his time as PM.
> 
> ...


According to the papers. I've heard a different version through my own ears.

It''s all in the interpretation

Yes there's a few things I don't like but overall, it's better than the alternative of Corbyn


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rona said:


> According to the papers. I've heard a different version through my own ears.
> 
> It''s all in the interpretation
> 
> Yes there's a few things I don't like but overall, it's better than the alternative of Corbyn


Well, I'll be fair. I'm not a fan of Diane Abbott although she did speak a lot of sense as shadow health secretary I thought. I do accept the hypocrisy too re sending her children to private school when supposedly against her principles. I also despised her racist comment about white people playing divide and rule (or something like that) which resulted rightly in a reprimand from her then boss Ed Milliband.

Still, seeing where the Tory party are going I'd rather have Corbyn and co.


----------



## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Still, seeing where the Tory party are going I'd rather have Corbyn and co.


Thankfully you are in a very small minority.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

There's no party I actually want to vote for .


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> They most certainly do. To think May and her far right version of the Tory party weren't even voted in to office.
> 
> It's the Tory equivalent of Jeremy Corbyn replacing Tony Blair during his time as PM.
> 
> ...


I think you mean it is the same as when Gordon Brown replaced Tony Blair in June 2007 (so not even voted into office as you put it) and didn't hold an election until 2010.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think you mean it is the same as when Gordon Brown replaced Tony Blair in June 2007 (so not even voted into office as you put it) and didn't hold an election until 2010.


Yes, you're right of course but Brown didn't move the party towards an extreme direction!


----------



## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

He moved the country towards bankruptcy instead.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> Thankfully you are in a very small minority.


Perhaps at the present time!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> Yes, you're right of course but Brown didn't move the party towards an extreme direction!


2009 - from the Guardian









Protesters at the Lindsey oil refinery in North Lincolnshire. Photograph: Anna Gowthorpe/PA

Deborah Summers, politics editor

Friday 30 January 2009 12.23 GMTLast modified on Tuesday 19 July 201622.59 BST

Gordon Brown has no regrets over using the phrase "British jobs for British workers", Downing Street insisted today as a series of unofficial strikes broke out over UK construction jobs awarded to European workers.

As anger intensified over plans by oil companies to employ Portuguese and Italian workers, the prime minister said that he understood people's concerns.

Asked whether the prime minister regretted using the controversial phrase, branded illegal and racist by critics, his spokesman in London said: "I don't see any reason for regret. The action that we have taken has meant that we are now putting in place measures that ensure British workers can have access to the vacancies in the system."


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> He moved the country towards bankruptcy instead.


If you look at some posts earlier in this thread you'll find this untrue. The issue of no money left on leaving office was actually a joke for example but reported as a fact by the right wing press.

The way the right wing press reported the global economic crisis it was as if he was personally responsible for it!


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> 2009 - from the Guardian
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, very unwise and not something I condoned at the time.

What I meant was Brown was no further to the left than Blair was overall.

The same old "Bl***y foreigners taking our jobs" argument. I wonder who was really behind this campaign? Not your usual Trade Union that's for sure. The fuel protesters in 2000 wasn't orchestrated by "loony left troublemakers" was it? On the contrary.....

In retrospect I thought Tony Blair standing down when he did was a terrible mistake....


----------



## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

I was referring to Browns sell off of our gold reserves at bottom of the market rates and his announcing his intention to do so beforehand thus ensuring the price dropped further.
He also raided private pensions and made an unholy mess of the economy. The man was (and remains) a total and utter f*ckwit.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Be afraid :Nailbiting

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-07/tony-blair-hints-at-possible-return-to-british-politics/


----------



## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

Ho ought to be in jail.


----------



## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Be afraid :Nailbiting
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-07/tony-blair-hints-at-possible-return-to-british-politics/


Raging narcissist


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Be afraid :Nailbiting
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-07/tony-blair-hints-at-possible-return-to-british-politics/


I don't watch ITV News. I can't see this happening somehow! I stand by believing he was an excellent PM at the time. it doesn't suggest I would want him back now. Times have changed, things have moved on.

As for Magnus' comment the age old condemnation from right and left alike for his support in Bush's Iraq War. No, I did not agree with that but I don't think for a second had a Tory PM been in office at the time they would've dared reject the US either!

Hypercritical also for a certain paper that originally backed the involvement now say he should've said no. Had he done so at the time they would have called him a traitor. A no win situation.

Major's government got involved in Bush Snr's Gulf War and the Falklands which could have been avoided had they not made cuts to the defenses made Thatcher's deeply unpopular government become a highly popular one over night through the media patriotism. They even had a celebration tv show featuring Jim Davidson and Vera Lynn.....

Then Cameron's recent involvement, Syria was it? I stand corrected if I'm wrong. Funny to think now the press turned against him he's only receiving criticism for that now!

I despise war full stop.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Unable to edit the above post. Apologies for the spelling error in defences first of all.

This is supposed to be a thread on the recent Tory conference but has become off topic considerably. Things like Blair have been discussed in earlier threads for example.

Perhaps we should be concentrating on the present and future rather than detailing events and errors of the past? I'm just as guilty as everyone else here!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@KittenKong.
I don't think Dr David Kelly would agree with you about Blair being an excellent PM 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jul/16/david-kelly-death-10-years-on

Kelly was the distinguished government scientist who hunted down weapons of mass destruction of the kind used by the Blair government to justify the 2003 war with Iraq. The problem was the Saddam Hussein regime did not have them.

A BBC Today programme report claimed the government had embellished or "sexed up" the intelligence it presented to the public in 2003 to justify the war.

A furore erupted between the government, led by chief spin doctor Alastair Campbell, and the BBC, which refused to back down, having failed to spot the flaws in its reporting.

Kelly was outed as the BBC's source, felt publicly humiliated and was reprimanded by his bosses. A proud man felt let down by them, and that his reputation built up over a lifetime was being irreparably tarnished.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> @KittenKong.
> I don't think Dr David Kelly would agree with you about Blair being an excellent PM .


Fair dos. Perhaps he was upto the point of the Iraq War....

That was a terrible business concerning Dr David Kelly. I appreciate the reminder about this.

None of us are perfect, I'll hold my hands up to that.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> Unable to edit the above post. Apologies for the spelling error in defences first of all.
> 
> This is supposed to be a thread on the recent Tory conference but has become off topic considerably. Things like Blair have been discussed in earlier threads for example.
> 
> Perhaps we should be concentrating on the present and future rather than detailing events and errors of the past? I'm just as guilty as everyone else here!


I'm all for looking to the future and being positive but that has to work both ways on all sides of the argument. If you (in general not personally) accuse the Tories of doing things Labour have done in the past then someone is going to bring it up


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Indeed, debate where no one gets personal is always welcome. To think I only have one person on ignore after the recent debates which have become heated over the past few months is something of a miracle!

I still stand by my earlier comments on the Tory conference and my disgust at the xenophobic anti immigrant stance overall. As you rightly say that shouldn't overlook the deeply embarrassing Brown effort which you were justified in bringing to our attention.

My politics are no longer on the side of Labour anyway. My loyalties now lie with a party north of the border.....


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Since this used to be a thread about the Tory Party Conference, another favourite bit of mine - well it is now - was when May said



Good Old Theresa said:


> "A truly global Britain is possible, and it is in sight. And it should be no surprise that it is. Because we are the fifth-biggest economy in the world."


Within a couple of days, the further post-Brexit vote decline of the pound has dropped us below France, and we're now 6th.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Arnie83 said:


> Since this used to be a thread about the Tory Party Conference, another favourite bit of mine - well it is now - was when May said
> 
> Within a couple of days, the further post-Brexit vote decline of the pound has dropped us below France, and we're now 6th.


My personal favourite from her was: "If you believe you're a citizen of the world,you're a citizen of nowhere. You don't understand what the very word 'citizenship' means."
I would expect to hear that from my 86 yo gran who lived her whole life in Siberia, but not from a political leader who is talking about a global Britain.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

More patriotic nonsense below.

I despair, I really do.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-37590044


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Be afraid :Nailbiting
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-07/tony-blair-hints-at-possible-return-to-british-politics/


How is he still walking free


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Arnie83 said:


> Within a couple of days, the further post-Brexit vote decline of the pound has dropped us below France, and we're now 6th.


 It will pick up again. Its something to do with a flash crash and Asian market. Shares are up .
We've had this discussion before in the Brexit thread about the pound going up and down , it has benefits both ways.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> It will pick up again. Its something to do with a flash crash and Asian market. Shares are up .
> We've had this discussion before in the Brexit thread about the pound going up and down , it has benefits both ways.


Well I hope it doesn't pick up for a long time personally because I am keeping my dollar positions for the foreseeable in order to avoid taxable events. Fingers crossed. But tbh I won't whinge if the market turns against me. I got my dollars at 1.58 on average, so unlikely. But I digress.... I can't understand all these idiots whinging about GBP weakness who don't even have any stake in the matter. Why do they care? Just chronically miserable I guess. Anyone who does have a serious stake in the GBP rates and, isn't reckless, is hedged anyway. It's an absolute NON-issue.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Yes it has been discussed before but this is a fresh development. Everytime Brexit is mentioned the pound plummets....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36721278

The real test of course is when they leave the European free market. I won't predict the outcome as I don't have a crystal ball.

The utter bigoted arrogance shown at the conference will win them few if any friends I reckon.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Deleted - duplicate post.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

The BBC report the. "Blair comeback" rather differently.

No plans to return to frontline politics.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37584407


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> Yes it has been discussed before but this is a fresh development. Everytime Brexit is mentioned the pound plummets....


And this bothers you because ?????


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Interesting....... Rudd's brother's worry over the Tories tone on immigration. Good for him for making his views known.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37587115


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

There's been no mention of UK immigrants in other EU countries. I wonder how they would feel if, say the Spanish government held a conference similar to what we've seen with the Tories last week with them being told they're no longer welcome and they'll be replaced by Spanish born people in the workplace in due course?

Much of this debate has been about immigrants in the UK, not the other way round.

I see a group of UK immigrants are suing the EU's general secretary through the uncertainty surrounding Brexit.

I've also heard UK immigrants will soon have the right to vote on UK issues regardless of their time living outside the UK, not the 15 year limit as of present.

Pity they didn't see this through and allow 16 & 17 year olds the vote. The outcome could've been very different.

Jean Claude Juncker didn't call the referendum......


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well according to the news today EU citizens in the UK can say here after Brexit happens the Government has said. There is no news though from the EU if UK citizens that live and work in the Europe can stay in European countries.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-stay-after-brexit-600000-will-be-given-amne/

Oops I replied even though I said I wouldn't. Oh well...


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Contradiction in terms thought isn't it?
The article says, "Some cabinet ministers have said...." without naming examples yet mentions the PM's refusal to guarantee their future.

I do have some "good" news for you though. Donald Trump will place the UK at the top of trade deals if he becomes President. He likes working with "like minded" people apparently....

, God help us all

....









http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37594928


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Well according to the news today EU citizens in the UK can say here after Brexit happens the Government has said. There is no news though from the EU if UK citizens that live and work in the Europe can stay in European countries.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-stay-after-brexit-600000-will-be-given-amne/
> 
> Oops I replied even though I said I wouldn't. Oh well...


That is simply not good enough. Someone somewhere said. I think that's just an attempt to reduce the backlash they have received after the Conference. The whole theory was well known before, but the PM has said it several times now loud and clear - she is not giving a reassurance to any EU families living here in U.K. We are their playing cards and that's all.
It is now October and I still have no clue what will happen in 2 years. I know that they shouldn't be able to just deport me. At that point I will have lived and paid my taxes here for 10 years. If I will want to stay, can I keep my EU passport? Will I be forced to apply for official residency? Will it be done automatically or will all of us have to pay that ridiculous amount of money which would be unaffordable for most of the British born citizens? If so, that will only cause even more issues for many people and not only financially. That will mean that I will either have to give up my true nationality/passport to be able to stay in Scotland or I will have to move back to EU because my country doesn't allow dual citizenship. And before someone says "Well, if you want to live and have a future in U.K. you should be happy to accept the citizenship" - how many of the UK emigrants living in EU would be happy to give up their UK passport? If the rules were different? How many of them would give up their nationality just to stay living in their new home country?
So before dear Theresa May comes out and actually says something proper, papers can say whatever they want. I have 2 years of uncertainty ahead so sorry if my moaning is so irritating for those, whose lives haven't changed one bit since the referendum and will not be directly affected in 2 years either.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

And this is rather offensive isn't it? From the same Telegraph article


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> And this is rather offensive isn't it? From the same Telegraph article
> View attachment 286117


It just makes it sound as if the HO was trying to find ways to deport people and then were unpleasantly surprised to realise that actually that won't work in civilised world with all the laws and stuff :Hilarious 
It's funny... my grandfather used to tell me stories of how his family was put on a fully packed train to Siberia during the Soviet deportations from the Baltic states. Keep remembering his stories lately...


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> I can't understand all these idiots whinging about GBP weakness who don't even have any stake in the matter. Why do they care? Just chronically miserable I guess. Anyone who does have a serious stake in the GBP rates and, isn't reckless, is hedged anyway. It's an absolute NON-issue.


Presumably you're referring to me as a no-stake idiot since I have just mentioned the fall in sterling, so I guess I should respond ...

For a start I'm afraid I have this tendency to eat at various times of the day, and since we import 40% of our food in the UK I can expect the costs of doing that to rise quite substantially when sterling devaluation works its way through to the shops.

Similarly I'm afraid I use oil, in the form of petrol, to get about, and that's priced in dollars. So too, I understand, do many companies who move goods around the country, including the food I just mentioned, so their costs will rise and will in part be passed on to me.

Perhaps those two mean I do have a stake in the matter.

In fact, come to think of it, there can't be many of us whinging idiots who don't have a stake. Starving pedestrians, maybe?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MiffyMoo said:


> 1. Extremely minor, and show me which party doesn't use slogans
> 2. Really?
> 3. I'll give you that one, it's not a message many of us are happy with
> 7. I really can't say that we're obsessed with national security. In fact, I would quite like to see more police on the streets
> ...


1) 'Go Home or face arrest' that was a good one! .https://www.theguardian.com/comment...t-parenting-myth-theresa-may?CMP=share_btn_tw

2) Yes, really - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-torture-civilians-armed-forces-a7346846.html

Shes also going to repeal the Human Rights Act which protects all of us. Any government that wants to remove its citizens human rights is clearly sinister.

Legal Aid Cut - https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...ew-into-legal-aid-cuts-is-a-denial-of-justice

7) They are constantly scaremongering about the threat of terrorism & the fear created is being used to chip away at more of our freedoms - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...extremism-security-terrorism?CMP=share_btn_tw

9) No, this is certainly not across every party. That 'red tape' the brexiteers loath so much protected us & the environment from corporate greed. The goal of these awful people is to unleash corporate power completely. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...rporations-liam-fox-eu?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

10) The TU Bill? They didn't push though everything they wanted - But I'm not naïve enough to think this is over -they wont stop until the unions are crushed.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tories-declare-war-workers-rights-6444123

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-mp-vote-trade-union-6446709

13) No FAR more sinister than your example. Lets take fracking as its currently in the news (one of many examples of tory corruption & cronyism I could have referenced) In Theresa Mays Britain local people get trampled on by corporate power. - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...s-nothing-short-of-hypocrisy?CMP=share_btn_tw

14) They gerrymandering to lock themselves in power.

Gerrymandering voting boundaries - https://www.theguardian.com/comment...undary-changes-tories-ruthless-gerrymandering

Election Fraud investigation -https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/01/channel-4-leads-the-way-on-tory-election-claims?CMP=share_btn_tw

Paint opposition leader as a 'threat to national security - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...me-corbyn-threat-national-security-criticised

View attachment 286037


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Says it all really.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

This is an un-win-able situation because the Conservatives cannot do right from wrong and if the Labour party came up with these ideas it would be the best thing since life's bread if it was reverse roles.

If a moderator is monitoring this thread please close it. Thank you.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Close it? Why? It hasn't got too heated. You surely don't want to close it because you don't want to hear differing opinions? That's what happens in debates @stockwellcat - people disagree.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> That's what happens in debate, people disagree.


I disagree.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Many of us are extremely worried about the future and the way the country and indeed the world is going.

If a Labour conference was equally xenophobic and divisive as the recent Conservative one I would be equally horrified.

I give credit to those Conservatives from the Open Britain campaign who've spoken out and even gave credit to Cameron himself for his support in Gay marriage.

This is not about Tory v Labour, far from it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> I disagree.


 Close it!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

We get the message but you can't half go on and on and on and on.

Message received loud and clear about your feelings about the Conservatives.

This world has changed it changed at the binging of time and is getting worse. We can't do anything about it. This thread wasn't about this though. The Conservative Conference is over and life goes on.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> . We can't do anything about it. .


In the words of Bob the Builder, "Yes We Can"!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Many of us are extremely worried about the future and the way the country and indeed the world is going.
> 
> If a Labour conference was equally xenophobic and divisive as the recent Conservative one I would be equally horrified.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I have never been so frightened of a government, for the future of this country.

I mean, how vile is this?


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Absolutely no reason why this thread should be closed.

It's a perfectly civilised debate. 

The fact that you may feel you're not winning the debate isn't grounds to ask for the thread to be closed, as a means of shutting everyone else up and having the last word yourself.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok well I'll just let you guys burn yourselves out then. You'll eventually run out of things to say and end up going around in circles. I have now unfollowed this thread.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> In the words of Bob the Builder, "Yes We Can"!


Sorry not my level of mentality I am afraid. I don't watch children's TV programmes, I am to old for that.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Close it, Why??? that would be crazy.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Close it!


I disagree.

Still.

Or maybe I don't?



stockwellcat said:


> Ok well I'll just let you guys burn yourselves out then. *You'll eventually run out of things to say and end up going around in circles.*


€50.00 says I don't.

Well, not the €50.00, exactly because you'll notice there was no speech marks.

It was more of a wager and it's apparently what you say when you want to make bet with someone.
Not that I'm a compulsive gambler mind, because I'm not.
Although I did lose quite a substantial amount of cash playing cards during the lunch break at work one day.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> Many of us are extremely worried about the future and the way the country and indeed the world is going.
> 
> If a Labour conference was equally xenophobic and divisive as the recent Conservative one I would be equally horrified.
> 
> ...


Two words for you - "Ken Livingstone"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-zionism-antisemitism-comments-a7005121.html

Labour under JC has its fair share of complaints about xenophobia I believe so much so that they had to hold their own enquiry into it (Chakrabarti inquiry).


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Sorry not my level of mentality I am afraid. I don't watch children's TV programmes, I am to old for that.


Ooh! That's a bit nasty and personal. Perhaps your true blue Nasty Tory nature is coming to the surface.

I don't watch "Bob the Builder" either. If fact I've never seen it. Just remember the song when it was in the charts.

So now you know.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse, post: 1064669772, member: 1409383"]Two words for you - "Ken Livingstone"

As I said earlier, I no longer follow the Labour Party.

No account of anti Semitism or whatever should be tolerated. I understand Ken Livingstone was suspended. To be fair Jeremy Corbyn has spoken out against it.

As I mentioned earlier I didn't like it when Diane Abbott commented about white people that time. I don't dispute your comments at all. It doesn't justify the Tory xenophobic nationalistic approach either. Surely the Conservatives are supposed to be be better than that? 

As I also mentioned earlier this goes way beyond Tory v Labour.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> rottiepointerhouse, post: 1064669772, member: 1409383"]Two words for you - "Ken Livingstone"
> 
> As I said earlier, I no longer follow the Labour Party.
> 
> ...


Yes fair comment no Antisemitism or racism should be tolerated on either side of the political spectrum.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Ok well I'll just let you guys burn yourselves out then. You'll eventually run out of things to say and end up going around in circles. I have now unfollowed this thread.


Sorry but not everyone agrees with you and you can't persuade them to come to your way of thinking, nor can others towards you. In the same sense I don't expect everyone to agree with what I say.

While we still live in a free country we all have a right to our opinions and that goes for yourself too.

You expressed your passion for Brexit and the Conservatives' and you wondered why others couldn't share your enthusiasm and optimism of how wonderful Britain will be outside the EU.

Then you bragged about being eligible for an Irish passport so you can move back within the EU if Brexit goes horribly wrong. That was a very brave thing to do!

I didn't vote for Brexit, nor did many others here and of course the 16+ million others. Most of us will be stuck here with no chance of getting out.....


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps your true blue Nasty Tory nature is coming to the surface.


Interesting isn't it, when people like you @KittenKong bang on endlessly about bigoted, prejudiced attitudes and then proceed to model those very attitudes yourself?

Perhaps all you virtue signallers are not so pure as you fancy yourselves to be.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Ooh! That's a bit nasty and personal. Perhaps your true blue Nasty Tory nature is coming to the surface.
> 
> I don't watch * "Bob the Builder" either. If fact I've never seen it. *Just remember the song when it was in the charts.
> 
> So now you know.


Your never seen Bob the Builder, :Jawdrop well let me tell you, it's much better and more belivable, than anything said at the tory party conference.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

And if we reversed rolls what would JC have done:

Banned all nuclear submarines
Disbanded the army, navy and air force leaving our country totally defenceless.
Spend trillions of pounds the UK does not have.
Go against what the 17+ million people voted for, which was mainly to do with uncontrolled immigration and opened the UK borders up to more migrants.
Labour are worse than the Conservatives regarding xenophobia and racism, hence the enquiry that was launched.

Again @KittenKong the racism word is used wrongly nowadays, people tend to use this word when they don't understand something or don't like what they hear. Racism is when you pick on someone because of there colour, race, accent, culture or religion nothing else. Excluding people from your country is not racist.

Thank you for your post last night. I had gone to bed that's why I didn't reply. But in response to what you said, yes I support Conservatives, yes I voted to leave the EU. Just incase you are confused I am entitled to as I am still a UK citizen and entitled to my opinion. I was born in Northern Ireland which set me in a unique position where I can have two nationalities under the Good Friday Agreement. I did not know I could do this. I have only just found this out and I am entitled to claim both nationalships and don't see why this is an issue. I am sure you would if you had the opportunity to?

Moving on...
Labour is as bad as the Conservatives if not worse. I know @KittenKong your loyalties lie across the border with the SNP good for you.

I am sorry if you felt my comment about "Bob the builder" upset/offended you @KittenKong.

Theresa May has only been Prime Minister a few months, hasn't managed to get her foot in the door yet so to speak and people are already slating her off. Give her a chance, Rome wasn't built in a day as the saying goes.

There you go I hope I have cleared a few things up this morning?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Theresa May has only been Prime Minister a few months, hasn't managed to get her foot in the door yet so to speak and people are already slating her off. Give her a chance, Rome wasn't built in a day as the saying goes.


and wasn't she Theresa May the Home Secretary, I'll say no more about that!!!


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

="stockwellcat, 
I am sorry if you felt my comment about "Bob the builder" upset/offended you @KittenKong.

Theresa May has only been Prime Minister a few months, hasn't managed to get her foot in the door yet so to speak and people are already slating her off. Give her a chance, Rome wasn't built in a day as the saying goes. 
--------------------------------

Apology accepted.

As for Theresa May, now I've seen her true colours she's blown it as far as I'm concerned. Even if I was a Tory supporter I wouldn't back her.
Anyone who has Johnson, Davis and Fox in their cabinet proved a significant move to the right which was proven in a huge way during their conference. They're now no different to UKIP which goes against everything I passionately believe in.

They'll never get my support and I have good reason for never backing Tory.... Having said that I'll always give credit where it's due, to those in the Open Britain cross party group, even Cameron when he backed Gay marriage and Lord Heseltine for standing up to Thatcher. I mustn't forgot John Major in his role during the Northern Ireland peace process, gratuitously recognised by Tony Blair when he became PM. Sad to think this may be at risk now.

As for Jeremy Corbyn, I hoped Owen Smith would somehow pull it off but it wasn't to be. I respected the decision in the hope the party would unite. We'll wait and see but it's not looking too hopeful at the moment.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> ="stockwellcat,
> As for Jeremy Corbyn, I hoped Owen Smith would somehow pull it off but it wasn't to be. I respected the decision in the hope the party would unite. We'll wait and see but it's not looking too hopeful at the moment.


While his leader of the party will never unite, I'm sorry to say


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Experts aren't sharing your optimism of May & her motley crew @stockwellcat.
*

All of the delusions have run out of material, right now British people have to face a Brexit disaster

For Britain's 'Brexit' Bunch, the Party Just Ended

Somehow, a whole combination of people were in denial up until now," said Adam S. Posen, a former member of the rate-setting committee at the Bank of England, and now president of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington.

"There were the people who thought Brexit would be reversed," he continued. "There were the people who delusionally thought there would be a soft Brexit, and all the northern Europeans would be nice to them. And there were people who believed that this crew in charge of the British negotiations were somehow going to strike a good deal. All of the delusions have run out of material."
*

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/w...prod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Experts aren't sharing your optimism of May & her motley crew @stockwellcat.
> *
> 
> All of the delusions have run out of material, right now British people have to face a Brexit disaster*
> ...




Always thought it would end in tears.
*
*


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Sorry but not everyone agrees with you and you can't persuade them to come to your way of thinking, nor can others towards you. In the same sense I don't expect everyone to agree with what I say.
> 
> *While we still live in a free country* we all have a right to our opinions and that goes for yourself too.
> 
> ...


Yep, we _do _live in a free country and we will still live in a free country despite Brexit.

It is a little (very) ironic that so many Remainers in this thread previously mentioned how they have foreign antecedents. I do and I'm very grateful for this country for that.
So why are you going to be stuck here with no chance of getting out? You will still be able to travel if you have the will, the spirit and the gumption. You can go just about anywhere in the world you wish, and will be able to do so once we have left the EU.

In my road we have an African, a Chinese, and an Indian family - and a lovely young Portuguese family is in the process of buying my house because I'm moving to the countryside with my dogs. I started with pretty much bugger all - maybe the foreign families in my road did too. They've just worked hard and see the positives of this country. Brexit? Nothing much will change.

I'll be sitting in the sunshine under a tree in some field with my dogs with a bright blue sky above me. If I see a dark cloud - I'll know where to find you.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> Yep, we _do _live in a free country and we will still live in a free country despite Brexit.
> 
> It is a little (very) ironic that so many Remainers in this thread previously mentioned how they have foreign antecedents. I do and I'm very grateful for this country for that.
> So why are you going to be stuck here with no chance of getting out? You will still be able to travel if you have the will, the spirit and the gumption. You can go just about anywhere in the world you wish, and will be able to do so once we have left the EU.
> ...


Thank you and very well said


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Experts aren't sharing your optimism of May & her motley crew @stockwellcat.
> *
> 
> All of the delusions have run out of material, right now British people have to face a Brexit disaster
> ...


Again an opinion of a news paper and it's reporter.

No tears shed here.

Nothing has happened yet.

Why is everyone panicking?

*Hard Brexit* - the UK gets to protect its borders and falls back automatically on WTO rules - see my previous posts on this.
*Soft Brexit* - The UK might as well stay in the EU as it will still be dictated to by Brussels.

It's nonsense that you won't be able to travel to Europe, this won't change. All the UK is doing is leaving the body that dictates the rules that govern Europe's trade and migration.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat, I really think you live in cloud cuckoo land.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> stockwellcat, I really think you live in cloud cuckoo land.


Nope. Living in London. No where near cuckoo land.  The article Quoted is from the New York Times a newspaper which is written by reporters so it is a reporters point of view. Papers warp the truth. Didn't you know that. So this is hardly fact as it is newspaper rabblings. 

A glitch in the trading market causes mass panic. It only lasted minutes.... The pound restored back to where it was before this. Where's the story then? They are saying the glitch may have been an error, no one knows - this happened overnight Thursday. But I still don't see what the story is?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Nope. Living in London. No where near cuckoo land.  The article Quoted is from the New York Times a newspaper which is written by reporters so it is a reporters point of view. Papers warp the truth. Didn't you know that. So this is hardly fact.


Did I say I agreed with everything in the papers, some things are right others things not, but personly I don't really care what is written in them, I still think we are going to reget voting out.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> Did I say I agreed with everything in the papers, some things are right others things not, but personly I don't really care what is written in them, I still think we are going to reget voting out.


The UK will be ok. Why?


> *EU chiefs face potential multi-billion pound lawsuits over threats to sever trade links with post-Brexit Britain.*
> 
> *Up to 30 non-EU countries who have struck deals with Europe are furious they may be banned from doing business with the UK.*
> 
> ...


It looks as if the EU will have to pay not the UK.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

stockwellcat said:


> Nothing has happened yet..


Depends what world you live in. Companies have started posting profit warnings citing Brexit. Now a profit warning is not a disaster for the economy but for the individuals who are "restructured" to address the books it won't feel good.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

samuelsmiles said:


> Yep, we _do _live in a free country and we will still live in a free country despite Brexit.
> 
> It is a little (very) ironic that so many Remainers in this thread previously mentioned how they have foreign antecedents. I do and I'm very grateful for this country for that.
> So why are you going to be stuck here with no chance of getting out? You will still be able to travel if you have the will, the spirit and the gumption. You can go just about anywhere in the world you wish, and will be able to do so once we have left the EU.
> ...


I doubt that very much. My point: Free movement between other EU states on a single UK/EU passport.
This will end if they go for a hard Brexit where the UK literally leaves Europe except geographically if they become a stand alone island.

It could well become as difficult to travel to France or Holland as it would be to travel to the US, Canada etc. Of course many may still be able to emigrate and work in other countries through visas, green cards etc. Even an icon like John Lennon struggled to get his US green card at the time.

Retiring to another country within the EU may become impossible unless you're very rich.

Yes, you can bark on about Remainers like myself being the new Moaning Minnies, but please forgive me for mourning the loss of something I've taken for granted over the years, well there's two years left of this so I'll be making the most of it....

Still, many may think erecting a Berlin Wall like border (I know it won't be like that but may feel this way) around the UK will be worth it to keep those pesky foreigners out from taking their jobs. It'll become more difficult and costly to visit other countries for the average person, it may become prohibitive.

As regards EU citizens already in the UK, many have worked here for several years, they face an uncertain future. Race hate crime has escalated since the Brexit vote. Even if the government agreed on an "amnesty" by allowing them to remain negative attitudes have escalated and this can only get worse. Enoch Powell and Oswald Mosley must be rejoicing in their graves.

Yes, some 17 million did vote for this. I get that........


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Ok everyone I have a question then and it's a serious one.

As it has been posted I recently found out that I have dual nationalship being born in Northern Ireland and grew up believing I was only entitled to UK citizenship living in the UK, but this isn't the case as I can walk into Eire (Republic of Ireland) tomorrow and have full citizenship there without doing anything and I am allowed passports to both the UK and Ireland. We are allowed to take up British Citizenship or Irish Citizenship or both.

My questions are these what happens to all those thousands of Irish people who have dual nationality by birthright and live in the UK? We are allowed to have both a UK and Irish passport and full citizenship in both countries. Will there still be a bilateral agreement or is this likely to cease? It states we are allowed citizenship in both countries as Northern Ireland is a UK state but in the Island if Ireland. Eire (The Republic of Ireland) is in the EU and trading in Euros. Northern Ireland trade in pound sterling and is a state of the UK.

My questions are serious and yes I see both points of the debate on here that have been going on since I posted this thread.

Thanks for any input.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Well you'll just have to wait and see won't you, who knows what wil happen after this mess is sorted out.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> *Soft Brexit* - The UK might as well stay in the EU as it will still be dictated to by Brussels.


That's democracy for you, not a dictatorship. Germany is on the losing side of votes more often than any other country apart from the UK. Before BREXIT the UK often had special deals. Not having to contribute to any more bailout of Greece for a start, not having to adopt the euro and the list goes on. Still waiting for the benefits of leaving as what the leave promised were lies to start with. Start with independence, we had it.



Jonescat said:


> Depends what world you live in. Companies have started posting profit warnings citing Brexit. Now a profit warning is not a disaster for the economy but for the individuals who are "restructured" to address the books it won't feel good.


Plenty of EU countries are actively courting companies to move.



stockwellcat said:


> My questions are these what happens to all those thousands of Irish people who have dual nationality by birthright and live in the UK?


Held to ransom by May so she "has a bargaining chip" although I don't see her pushing for change for Ireland. UK people in the EU for more than 5 years are already entitled to long term residency under EU regulations, something which May avoids mentioning when she talks about reciprical negotiations.



> Eire (The Republic of Ireland) is in the EU and trading in Euros. Northern Ireland trade in pound sterling and is a state of the UK.


Normally at the border shops etc trade both currencies. May not be the best exchange rate but convenient. Can be good if some things are cheaper in one country than others. Brings up the idea of smuggling though and taxes which is another reason for border controls. Can imagine the "calais booze trip" happening over the irish border if tariffs are placed on some imports to the UK.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Won't need to worry about any of it soon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37597075

"Russia has deployed nuclear-capable Iskander missiles in its western-most region, Kaliningrad, which borders on Nato members Poland and Lithuania."


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> Won't need to worry about any of it soon
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37597075
> 
> "Russia has deployed nuclear-capable Iskander missiles in its western-most region, Kaliningrad, which borders on Nato members Poland and Lithuania."


Putin might be using them to ensure the Brexit negotiations go the UKs way. I wonder who Putin has them aimed at?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Putin might be using them to ensure the Brexit negotiations go the UKs way. I wonder who Putin has them aimed at?


I assume this is a joke post. I really don't think it's anything to joke about 

If it's not a joke...........OMG!!!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> I assume this is a joke post. I really don't think it's anything to joke about
> 
> If it's not a joke...........OMG!!!


What I said before was a joke.

Seriously though I wonder what Putin is playing at?

Regarding where he has positioned these nuclear weapons he has had them there before and withdrew them. Is it a show of force? It is very worrying but he has done this before.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37600426



> *This is not the first time that the Russians have deployed Iskander-M short-range ballistic missiles to Kaliningrad and it will not be the last.* Indeed, some experts believe Russia's long-term plan is eventually to deploy the weapons permanently to the Russian enclave, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania.
> 
> The Iskander-M system is relatively modern and was introduced into the Russian military in 2006. It is highly mobile - a pair of missiles are carried on a heavy-wheeled launcher. The missile is known as the SS-26 and code-named "Stone" by Nato. It is equipped with a variety of counter-measures to try to breach enemy defences. Fired from Kaliningrad, it can reach all of the Baltic republics and probably about two-thirds of Poland.


Has there been talk of a missile defence shield being deployed to this area by NATO?

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ed-missile-defense-amid-fear-russia/87533428/


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

stockwellcat said:


> Ok everyone I have a question then and it's a serious one.
> 
> As it has been posted I recently found out that I have dual nationalship being born in Northern Ireland and grew up believing I was only entitled to UK citizenship living in the UK, but this isn't the case as I can walk into Eire (Republic of Ireland) tomorrow and have full citizenship there without doing anything and I am allowed passports to both the UK and Ireland. We are allowed to take up British Citizenship or Irish Citizenship or both.
> 
> ...


I assume you live in England.

You voted to leave the EU.

Why would you want to go to Ireland?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Sweety said:


> I assume you live in England.
> 
> You voted to leave the EU.
> 
> Why would you want to go to Ireland?


Yes I do live in England.

I have my entire family in Ireland (Northern Ireland to be precise) apart from my dad and stepmother and myself.

My entire family voted to leave.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> Putin might be using them to ensure the Brexit negotiations go the UKs way. I wonder who Putin has them aimed at?


Ah, they're just for decoration. We often watch the red army on manoeuvres just over the border from us. :Watching

They keep a close eye on us too.:Watching

It's Mr Putin's idea of window shopping.

But you know, there's not a single Finn who will ever lose any sleep over such a close presence.

Finland kicked the Bear's 4r53 during the winter war of 1939 - 1940 and they're still of the mind they can do it all over again:Wacky

Nukes or no nukes.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I am confused as one article says they are nuclear capable and another article says they are ballistic missiles. There is a huge difference in the description of these missiles.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Ah, they're just for decoration. We often watch the red army on manoeuvres just over the border from us. :Watching
> 
> They keep a close eye on us too.:Watching
> 
> ...


Oh they are always flying the bear planes over UK airspace as well, testing our defences. We always manage to scramble our Typhoon fast response aircraft within minutes of there detection.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Yes I do live in England.
> 
> I have my entire family in Ireland (Northern Ireland to be precise) apart from my dad and stepmother and myself.
> 
> My entire family voted to leave.


Well you'll all have to live with what ever happens won't you.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> Oh they are always flying the bear planes over UK airspace as well, testing our defences. We always manage to scramble our Typhoon fast response aircraft within minutes of there detection.
> View attachment 286253


Approximately 2 kilometres away (Finnish soil) we've noticed some Russians have bought a secluded, but dilapidated summer cottage by the lake and are presently engaged in the process of renovating the old place. 
We've also noticed they seem to have amassed an awful lot of heavy construction materials, machinery and many suspicious looking large crates covered with tarpaulin.

Do you think I should tell someone that there might be every possibility those crates contain weapons of mass destruction?:Watching


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Approximately 2 kilometres away (Finnish soil) we've noticed some Russians have bought a secluded, but dilapidated summer cottage by the lake and are presently engaged in the process of renovating the old place.
> We've also noticed they seem to have amassed an awful lot of heavy construction materials, machinery and many suspicious looking large crates covered with tarpaulin.
> 
> Do you think I should tell someone that there might be every possibility those crates contain weapons of mass destruction?:Watching


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Two words for you - "Ken Livingstone"
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-zionism-antisemitism-comments-a7005121.html
> 
> Labour under JC has its fair share of complaints about xenophobia I believe so much so that they had to hold their own enquiry into it (Chakrabarti inquiry).


And it was Corbyn who launched the investigation & appointed Chakrabarti. Do you think May will launch an investigation into her blatantly xenophobic party?



samuelsmiles said:


> Yep, we _do _live in a free country and we will still live in a free country despite Brexit.
> 
> It is a little (very) ironic that so many Remainers in this thread previously mentioned how they have foreign antecedents. I do and I'm very grateful for this country for that.
> So why are you going to be stuck here with no chance of getting out? You will still be able to travel if you have the will, the spirit and the gumption. You can go just about anywhere in the world you wish, and will be able to do so once we have left the EU.
> ...


I'll tell you why I'll 'be stuck here'. I have responsibilities to other that's why. I have an elderly father who relies on me & an elderly & poorly FIL. I have no qualifications, few skills so not much to offer other countries anyway. If things were different, believe me, I would be out of this increasingly nasty, toxic ****hole like a flash! Thank god my children have good qualifications & are both doing well in their careers. At least they will have something to offer so have a better opportunity to get out. And much as it would break my heart to see them go, I am encouraging them to go.

ETA However, If countries see our small mindedness to 'foreigners' as reason to exclude us from their countries, who could blame them?

Things have already changed & we haven't even brexited yet. Or hadn't you noticed? :/



stockwellcat said:


> Again an opinion of a news paper and it's reporter.
> 
> No tears shed here.
> 
> ...





stockwellcat said:


> Nope. Living in London. No where near cuckoo land.  The article Quoted is from the New York Times a newspaper which is written by reporters so it is a reporters point of view. Papers warp the truth. Didn't you know that. So this is hardly fact as it is newspaper rabblings.
> 
> A glitch in the trading market causes mass panic. It only lasted minutes.... The pound restored back to where it was before this. Where's the story then? They are saying the glitch may have been an error, no one knows - this happened overnight Thursday. But I still don't see what the story is?


The article was written by this man - http://www.petersgoodman.com/. He's an award winning reporter & columnist. The paragraph I quoted from the article quite clealy has the name of the person who said it. You can see isn't a 'reporter from some newspaper - he is an EXPERT, someone who clearly has a better insight than either you or I.

*Somehow, a whole combination of people were in denial up until now," said Adam S. Posen, a former member of the rate-setting committee at the Bank of England, and now president of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington.

"There were the people who thought Brexit would be reversed," he continued. "There were the people who delusionally thought there would be a soft Brexit, and all the northern Europeans would be nice to them. And there were people who believed that this crew in charge of the British negotiations were somehow going to strike a good deal. All of the delusions have run out of material*

So just whos point of view did you quote? Some reporter who works in one of the gutter rags by any chance?  I'm guessing you found it in either the Telegraph, Mail, Express OR ---The Sun ??

Can you reference your info in future please?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SNPs fantastic Mhairi Black. http://www.thenational.scot/comment...-out-against-the-tories-ugly-xenophobia.23314









Amber Rudd's speech at the Tory party conference has been lambasted
*Mhairi Black: We must learn lessons from history and speak out against the Tories' ugly xenophobia*
OCTOBER 8TH, 2016 - 12:50 AM MHAIRI BLACK

I*N my year and a half of being a politician I can truly say that I have never been more horrified or afraid of the rhetoric coming from the Conservative Government as I have this past week. To read the headlines of the major British newspapers felt like I had awoken in some dystopian, V for Vendetta-esque society. The Conservative Party's mask as 'a party of the common people' has slipped to reveal the xenophobic, often racist, nationalist, ugly face beneath. The very fact that they now openly share the same values and policies as Ukip says it all*

Immediately, I know that unionists will cry hypocrisy when they see that I have labelled the Conservative Party as 'nationalist', so let me explain. I myself have never identified with the word 'nationalist' and if I am honest, the thing that irritates me most is that I am automatically labelled as such purely because I am in the SNP. I believe in independence purely for practical reasons rather than emotional ones. I want Scotland to have total control and power over its own policies, government and direction of travel. I believe the SNP is the best vehicle to achieving that goal, however, after independence, everyone's vote is up for grabs (including my own), and that can only be considered a healthy thing.

I like so many others am incredibly proud to be a part of the independence movement. Mainly for its inclusive, pro-migration and diverse nature. I love the fact that Scotland is, as a whole, a welcoming country filled with people from different backgrounds embracing each others cultures. I am extremely proud that these are also the values of the SNP. The SNP label these characteristics as 'civic nationalism', others label it as 'culturalism'. I personally label it as simply being a good and kind citizen. And yet, continually we allow our opponents and the mainstream media to label us as 'divisive', 'petty' and small minded 'nationalists', motivated by some form of ugly racism.

So let me be clear, I quite frankly could not care less about where I was born or where others were born. I have no care for what nationality people consider themselves as, after all, where you are born is down to total, random, pot luck. I do however care when that 'nationalism' is used as a motivation or an excuse for racist, bigoted and small minded policy, and this week we have seen the worst of it.

The Conservative Party's conference has unleashed ugly and downright scary rhetoric that I was brought up to believe was to be left in the past. I am not exaggerating when I say that the policies being brought forward are reminiscent of early 1930s Nazi Germany.

This was best conveyed by James O'Brien on LBC Radio when he told listeners this was an extract from Rudd's Conservative conference speech:

"For the state should draw the sharp line of distinction between those who, as members of the nation, are the foundation and support of its existence and greatness, and those who are domiciled simply as earners of their livelihoods of there." Only for O'Brien to admit the quote was not from Rudd's speech but rather Mein Kampf, the book written by Hitler during his time in prison before becoming German Chancellor.

We see the headlines that Amber Rudd and her cronies are attacking businesses over their willingness to hire 'foreigners', even going as far as to say that businesses must list all foreign workers. There have also been worrying reports that schools are now listing and logging the nationalities of all their 'foreign' pupils. What's next? Making them wear a badge or carry documentation so they are easily identified? All I can think of is an extract I was taught at primary school when I was learning about WWII (apologies that I cannot remember who the quote is attributed to):

"I sometimes fear that people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress worn by grotesques and monsters as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis. Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you..."


Fascism creeps up on us, and what we have seen this week can only be described, and must be described as the first steps of that.

We have seen people proudly professing, "British jobs for British people". I have no problem with governments providing jobs for their citizens, in fact, I spend most of my days actively
encouraging and fighting for it - but that is they key difference. Government should be providing jobs for people IN Britain, not simply 'British' people.

Our opponents label and criticise us as 'divisive nationalists' for speaking logic and sense, and yet when they themselves come out with blatantly small minded policy based on nationality, it is labelled 'patriotic'?

Even more concerning is the fact that Michael Fallon has announced he will launch 150 new cadet units attached to state schools and claims this militarisation will, "instil British values".

I saw a video by Akala for The Guardian which correctly dissects these 'patriotic' and 'British' values the Conservatives seem so keen to put at the heart of their policies. He states that we are taught British values and this is the reason we have won so many societal victories over the years, from the suffragettes to the abolition of child labour, to workers rights overall, when in reality that could not be further from the truth.

We have won these victories due to the determination and hard fought campaigns against the 'British' elites. If history is viewed accurately, we see that often these progressive, civil, anti-racist movements were labelled as 'anti-British' or 'anti-state' at the time and yet now they are portrayed as being the result of inherent British values as opposed to genuine political struggle.

Akala embodies precisely my feelings on the matter when he says, "Whilst I am not a
nationalist, how national peoples and cultures see themselves undoubtedly has real-world implications. The question in these tumultuous times is: which British traditions will you be drawing on? The one that reinforces race and class oppression, or the one of relentless activism that secured for us the very fragile freedoms we have today?"

The only 'nationalism' I can see is from the British elites and right-wing political groups. The only racism that I can see is coming from politicians scapegoating 'foreigners' for the genuine difficulties so many communities in the UK are facing precisely at the hands of the Tories and their obsession with austerity. Does it sound familiar? History is littered with the establishment, the elites and the rich abusing and exploiting society and the individuals in it and then pointing the finger of blame at foreigners.

If there is one piece of hope that can be taken from the events of this week, is the number of people who are speaking out. The number of people who are calling out these politicians on their hypocrisy and we must continue to do so.

When Ruth Davidson claims that the Yes Movement tries to, "rile English [people] to win independence", let us proudly refute it. When Theresa May labels us as, "divisive", let us remind her that we are not the ones who want to segregate workers.

I am proud that Scotland has sent a clear message that all are welcome here. I am proud that so many Scottish businesses have outrightly said they will refuse to provide any form of lists of foreign employees, and I am proud that the Scottish government will give them our full support in doing so.

So let me finish with a poem by Martin Niemoller:

*First they came for the Jews.*

*But I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.*

*Then they came for the Communists.*

*But I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.*

*Then they came for the trade unionists.*

*But I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.*

*Then they came for the Catholics.*

*But I did not speak up because I was a Protestant.*

*Then they came for me*.

*And by that time there was no one left to speak out for me.*

We are entering incredibly scary times and we are taking the first step to slide down that very slippery slope, when history has taught us exactly where this leads. We are better than this. Scotland is better than this. Let us speak out.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Find it interesting that they've bastardised the Union Jack as a logo.

We have an unelected PM dictating policy and direction. Wasn't one of the complaints of the EU unelected bureucrats dictating what is going to happen? In 1975 the "Remain" vote won with over 67%. Parliament debated the result. In 2016 the Leave vote won with only 52% of the vote and the vote itself was vague. No mention of single market and all options on the table. The referendum was not to be bindng. Now Parliament isn't even allowed to debate the vote. Since when does taking back sovereignty mean dictatorship and ignoring the constitution when it suits you?


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

Just as a point of order no Prime Minister is ever elected. MP's are elected and a political party forms a Government.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Magnus said:


> Just as a point of order no Prime Minister is ever elected. MP's are elected and a political party forms a Government.


Normally at a general election you vote for a known PM and policy in terms of manifesto. Manifesto for the current government included staying in the EU.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm sorry but you don't. You vote to appoint a Member of Parliament in your constituency.

The manifesto of the "current" government was to give the country a free and democratic vote on whether we stay in or leave the EU. 
It did that.
We voted to leave.
The Government is acting upon that democratic decision.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Goblin and Noushka, brilliant posts. If I could give you a thousand "likes" I would do.

Mhairi Black speaks my language, she's absolutely spot on in everything she said.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

I wouldn't be shouting that she speaks your language!!
She's a loathsome English hating foul-mouthed cow.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Magnus  Blimey !


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> I'm sorry but you don't. You vote to appoint a Member of Parliament in your constituency.
> 
> The manifesto of the "current" government was to give the country a free and democratic vote on whether we stay in or leave the EU.
> It did that.
> ...


Yes, you're both right actually. I voted Labour in the last election more to support our much respected local MP than to help Ed Miliband into power.

Yes the EU referendum was indeed in the Tory manifesto, to be held no later than the end of 2017..Enough said about what happened but denying 16 and 17 year old the vote who'll be most affected and many UK immigrants living overseas especially in the case of those living outside the UK or more for 15+ years it's a kick in the teeth to hear the latter will be able to vote in UK matters in due course.

Sorry I don't call that democratic. I know you Brexiteers will disagree which of course you have every right to. If I was one of those citizens living overseas to say I would be furious is an understatement.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> I wouldn't be shouting that she speaks your language!!
> She's a loathsome English hating foul-mouthed cow.


English football I believe she is referring to. Sorry Magnus but you can't change my way of thinking in much the same way I can't change yours.

Good try, but I know when my loyalties lie.

If you refer to her as a "Foul Mouth Cow" you're no better than she is are you.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@KittenKong. I think it shows her mentality.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

I hardly think that "cow" is the equivalent of the terms she has used.
I'm assuming you don't dispute "foul-mouthed" ?

In any case I'm not trying to change your way of thinking in any way shape or form. I'm sure your mind is made up.
I am merely pointing out that someone who is so blatantly anti-English accusing others of xenophobia is, in my view hypocritical.
Both the SNP and Plaid Cymru are obviously nationalistic and there is no great crime in that in itself. My issue is that if there was a political party who described themselves as "the Party of England" it would undoubtedly be vilified as racist and exclusive.
Personally I would love to give the Scots and the Welsh independence as long as it meant they paid all their own bills.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

OK, perhaps it wasn't very clever but aren't people at their most Nationalistic during a football tournament? Another reason why it was ludicrous to hold a life changing referendum during the European football tournament!

Still, that's Twitter for you. I still stand by her excellent speech which does speak my language, as did Nicola Sturgeon's.

I don't dispute the tweets were foul mouthed. With respect Magnus, calling her a "cow" was a bit harsh. As much as I'm tempted to do so I've restrained myself from using such terms towards certain politicians with no prizes for guessing who..

It doesn't help anyone.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

It was harsh.

On cows.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> It was harsh.
> 
> On cows.


It is Pet Forums after all. We love our animals.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Magnus said:


> I'm sorry but you don't. You vote to appoint a Member of Parliament in your constituency.


If you argue to that level of nitpicking you should also confirm that that the constitution states the matter needs to be debated and voted for in parliament. That is what is constitutionally correct and according to red tape. What happens in reality is people vote for leaders of parties at a GE and MP's for local/ by elections.



> The manifesto of the "current" government was to give the country a free and democratic vote on whether we stay in or leave the EU.


It did, it ran a non-binding vote as all but 1 referendum has been in the past. This was known before the vote. Manifesto also included pushing for changes in the EU, not leaving the single market. Neither did the referendum.



> We voted to leave.


Less than 50% of the electorate voted to leave. Enough to indicate direction of policy. Not enough to ruin the country and not enough to abandon the constitution.



> The Government is acting upon that democratic decision.


Government is acting upon a group of politicians, not democracy. If you were so keen on democracy another vote would be taken as to acceptable terms of leaving. Instead simple debate is no longer allowed. How is this democracy?


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

Wrong.

Legal situation regarding Article 50:

*Invoking Article 50: the Law, the Constitution and Politics*

*The legal power to invoke Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union is in law a prerogative power vested in the Crown, which may be exercised by government ministers without the need for authorisation or consent from Parliament. There is no credible legal argument supporting the legal challenge being advertised by law firm Mishcon de Reya.*

*Constitutionally the referendum result was decisive and binding and not just advisory. The referendum result does not merely authorise but positively mandates the government to exercise its legal power to give notice under Article 50*


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Which ever way you look at it the Referendum was legally binding because it was debated in Parliament before it took place and got royal approval which means it was approved by the Queen. Theresa May does not need approval from Parliament as they already gave it before the Referendum took place.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Legal situation regarding Article 50:
> 
> ...


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Legal situation regarding Article 50:
> 
> ...


Had many "Leave" voters been aware of this they may have made their choices more carefully. As a committed Remain and now Open Britain supporter I also wasn't aware of this.

Many were probably confused by the European Football tournament at the same time too. England could win the cup if they vote Leave*. They lost against Iceland soon after the result which at least prevented the Brexit supporting papers from stating an England victory was all down to the Leave success!

Well, "The Sun" did say, 'The Queen Backs Brexit"........

*Disclaimer, no offence to anyone here intended.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Had many "Leave" voters been aware of this they may have made their choices more carefully. Many were probably confused by the European Football tournament at the same time too...
> 
> Well, "The Sun" did say, 'The Queen Backs Brexit"........


The Queen approved the Referendum to take place does not mean she back Brexit. She has to give her approval of such things.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Love the references there Magnus. Doesn't mean it's true as no referendum has been binding apart one dealing with the constitution itself. This was declared as such before hand. Going to a pro brexit site and copying text doesn't mean it is true. All referendums, even though non-binding have to be agreed by parliament. It's not a declaration that they are binding.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Love the references there Magnus. Doesn't mean it's true as no referendum has been binding apart one dealing with the constitution itself. This was declared as such before hand. Going to a pro brexit site and copying text doesn't mean it is true. All referendums, even though non-binding have to be agreed by parliament. It's not a declaration that they are binding.


Ah @Goblin. This Referendum was approved before it took place and the terms surrounding the Referendum where also debated on before the Referendum so it is legally binding. It was debated in Parliament and approved by the Queen.

Edited: it was also debated because of the petition in Westminster Hall and it was agreed that there shouldn't be a second Referendum.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Parliaments decision:


> *The EU Referendum Act received Royal Assent in December 2015. The Act was scrutinised and debated in Parliament during its passage and agreed by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The Act set out the terms under which the referendum would take place, including provisions for setting the date, franchise and the question that would appear on the ballot paper. The Act did not set a threshold for the result or for minimum turnout.*
> 
> As the Prime Minister made clear in his statement to the House of Commons on 27 June, the referendum was one of the biggest democratic exercises in British history with over 33 million people having their say. *The Prime Minister and Government have been clear that this was a once in a generation vote and, as the Prime Minister has said, the decision must be respected. *We must now prepare for the process to exit the EU and the Government is committed to ensuring the best possible outcome for the British people in the negotiations.
> 
> Foreign and Commonwealth Office


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Magnus said:


> I wouldn't be shouting that she speaks your language!!
> She's a loathsome English hating foul-mouthed cow.


Oh dear, you've been fooled again

This is the verified twitter account of Mhairi Black https://twitter.com/MhairiBlack



Mhairi Black MP
Verified account
@MhairiBlack

*Mhairi Black MPVerified account*
*@MhairiBlack*

See that blue tick in the link? It is authorizing the account as actually being hers.

I love this Theresa May one. @Theresa_Maybe :Hilarious https://twitter.com/Theresa_Maybe[/USER]


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Oh dear, you've been fooled again
> 
> This is the verified twitter account of Mhairi Black https://twitter.com/MhairiBlack
> 
> ...


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Magnus said:


> I wouldn't be shouting that she speaks your language!!
> She's a loathsome English hating foul-mouthed cow.


Haha if you looked at my FB when I was 15, or in fact any 15 yo you wouldn't see much different stuff. Especially in Paisley


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MPs not to get a vote.



> Theresa May has said MPs will not get a vote on Brexit because to "second guess" the British people would be "unacceptable".
> 
> The Prime Minister's spokesman said it was "absolutely necessary" for the MPs to scrutinise the "process" of leaving the EU but that MPs should not be given a vote.
> 
> ...


http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-rules-out-brexit-vote-for-mps-10612305


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Ah @Goblin. This Referendum was approved before it took place and the terms surrounding the Referendum where also debated on before the Referendum so it is legally binding.


Having a referendum is legally binding. We had it. What happens after has not been debated in Parliament and approved by the Queen. The referendum had a simple question with multiple possible outcomes even for an out vote. Now it's called hard or soft Brexit. Before it was Norway option, Swiss option, WTO option etc. So when did parliament decide which option and how it should be implemented?

Your other quote is proof of the pudding even though after the referendum. Would be interesting to see if you can find anywhere before the referendum which declares it legally binding. The referendum is being respected by negotiations taking place. Being respected includes having options debated in parliament. It does not mean leaving the single market as that wasn't on the referendum paper, neither was limiting immigration if it comes to being pinicky.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

True evidence of a dictatorship. May is (unelected) PM.

Surely the actually elected MPs, wether they supported Remain or Leave should be allowed their say in Parliament?

As with Thatcher we need a Michael Hestletine to stand up to this nonsense.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Having a referendum is legally binding. We had it. What happens after has not been debated in Parliament and approved by the Queen. The referendum had a simple question with multiple possible outcomes even for an out vote. Now it's called hard or soft Brexit. Before it was Norway option, Swiss option, WTO option etc. So when did parliament decide which option and how it should be implemented?
> 
> Your other quote is proof of the pudding even though after the referendum. Would be interesting to see if you can find anywhere before the referendum which declares it legally binding. The referendum is being respected by negotiations taking place. Being respected includes having options debated in parliament. It does not mean leaving the single market as that wasn't on the referendum paper, neither was limiting immigration if it comes to being pinicky.


It could also be interpreted that Brexit Means Brexit so that means we have a clean break from the EU including the Single Market (which is what the UK originally signed up to not the EU).


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> MPs not to get a vote.
> 
> http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-rules-out-brexit-vote-for-mps-10612305


Of course not as it would be threat to her "power". Luckily it's not her decision to make and will be decided by court of constitutional law, not an unelected PM with no real mandate from the public to remove the UK from the EU single market. That is unless you can say your referendum question had that on the options list.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> True evidence of a dictatorship. May is (unelected) PM.
> 
> Surely the actually elected MPs, wether they supported Remain or Leave should be allowed their say in Parliament?
> 
> As with Thatcher we need a Michael Hestletine to stand up to this nonsense.


It's not a dictatorship it's far from this. Regarding TM being unelected, there won't be an election until 2020. She said this to stop there being a period of instability. If there was an election tomorrow it could be argued she would still win and you still wouldn't like this.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> It's not a dictatorship it's far from this. Regarding TM being unelected, there won't be an election until 2020. She said this to stop there being a period of instability. If there was an election tomorrow it could be argued she would still win and you still wouldn't like this.


So she's not prepared to test her mandate even when there is no real opposition? Interesting don't you think considering Brexit would be at the heart of any campaign.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Of course not as it would be threat to her "power". Luckily it's not her decision to make and will be decided by court of constitutional law, not an unelected PM with no real mandate from the public to remove the UK from the EU single market. That is unless you can say your referendum question had that on the options list.


Let's see what happens in court, the cases start next week. Personally I think this is a pointless exercise and a waste of taxpayers money. I hope if the people's challenge lose they have to pay the court costs.


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

Hardly "fooled" by the lovely Mhairi having a new Twitter account now. 

Once again, for the record and those that keep saying the May is "un-elected"

You don't elect a prime minister


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Magnus said:


> Hardly "fooled" by the lovely Mhairi having a new Twitter account now.
> 
> Once again, for the record and those that keep saying the May is "un-elected"
> 
> *You don't elect a prime minister*


Your correct as you elect the party and the party leader becomes Prime Minister.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> So she's not prepared to test her mandate even when there is no real opposition? Interesting don't you think considering Brexit would be at the heart of any campaign.


She doesn't have a mandate her party have a mandate.


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Goblin said:


> So she's not prepared to test her mandate even when there is no real opposition? Interesting don't you think considering Brexit would be at the heart of any campaign.


I think you'll find that we already covered why it would be foolish to have another election, so let's not rehash old arguments for the sake of dragging on the outrage


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> It's not a dictatorship it's far from this. Regarding TM being unelected, there won't be an election until 2020. She said this to stop there being a period of instability. If there was an election tomorrow it could be argued she would still win and you still wouldn't like this.


Yes May probably would win the election if called today. This wasn't what I was getting at.

Traditionally MPs could debate matters in Parliament. You'll recall I included Leave supporting MPs as well. If May said they're not allowed this shocking. What else would you call this?

Imagine if I became an unelected Moderator on this forum and deleted all of your posts because I disagreed with them?

Respectfully I disagree with near 100% of what you say but that doesn't mean I have a right to silence you does it if I was a moderator?! It's only right you're entitled to your say as they would normally do in parliament in a democracy.

This is exactly what May is doing by denying Parliament their right to speak. Her decision is final and cannot be discussed whether for of against.

This just ain't right.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Magnus said:


> You don't elect a prime minister


Ahem, yes and no. We knew it would be Blair or Cameron but not Brown or May.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Yes May probably would win the election if called today. This wasn't what I was getting at.
> 
> Traditionally MPs could debate matters in Parliament. You'll recall I included Leave supporting MPs as well. If May said they're not allowed this shocking. What else would you call this?
> 
> ...


Please read the news article properly.
TM isn't allowing another debate, but will allow what goes on in the Brexit negotiations to be scrutinised.


> "Parliament is of course going to debate and scrutinise that process as it goes on. That is absolutely necessary and the right thing to do.


 Sourced from quoted news article above.

I didn't know you felt like that towards me that you 100% disagree with me.  I don't know if I should feel insulted, joyous or if I should go and hide under a rock somewhere.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Ahem, yes and no. We knew it would be Blair or Cameron but not Brown or May.


Yes but on the ballot paper you tick Conservatives, Labour, Green Party, SNP etc not Blair or Cameron etc.

The party members and MPs get to pick there leader.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> I didn't know you felt like that towards me that you 100% disagree with me.  I don't know if I should feel insulted, joyous or if I should go and hide under a rock somewhere.


Gosh, I feel awful now. I'm so sorry if I've upset you. It's clear our views are considerably different and would assume you thought the same about mine.

Please accept my sincere apologies if I've hurt your feelings.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Gosh, I feel awful now. I'm so sorry if I've upset you. It's clear our views are considerably different and would assume you thought the same about mine.
> 
> Please accept my sincere apologies if I've hurt your feelings.


Don't worry, we are all allowed to agree to disagree or disagree to agree 

You haven't hurt my feelings. Takes alot more than a forum website to upset my feelings.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Yes but on the ballot paper you tick Conservatives, Labour, Green Party, SNP etc not Blair or Cameron etc.
> 
> The party members and MPs get to pick there leader.


Yes that's perfectly true but usually we know who leads the main parties at the time of voting.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Yes that's perfectly true but usually we know who leads the main parties at the time of voting.


In all fairness though Blair was ousted by Brown, he was an unelected PM as well (Brown I mean) but Labour was in power as the elected party.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

May has no mandate for her Little Britain.










Anyone wants to chip in & help crowd fund challenge, heres the link - https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/parliament-should-decide/


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm not getting into an argument based on what The Guardian says :Stop


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> May has no mandate for her Little Britain.
> 
> View attachment 286315
> 
> ...


Glad you have money to blow. Can't see anything coming from the court case except the Government winning. After all they are the law makers in the UK.

I am not entering debate on this issue either. I have expressed my opinion.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Can't see anything coming from the court case except the Government winning. After all they are the law makers in the UK.


Only when they follow the constitution to do so. We have the constitution for a reason despite the fact that many would like changes. The government is accountable to the courts and needs to be.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Only when they follow the constitution to do so. We have the constitution for a reason despite the fact that many would like changes. The government is accountable to the courts and needs to be.


We don't have a written constitution like other countries. So that is argueable that we have a constitution at all.

https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution



> the courts may only interpret parliamentary statutes. They may not overrule or declare them invalid for being contrary to the constitution and 'unconstitutional'.


We have been through this before and I don't intend on resurrecting this debate again. We'll just have to see what the courts think next week.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Don't forget President Jean-Claude Juncker is being taken to court as well by Expats:
http://news.sky.com/story/british-expats-to-take-jean-claude-juncker-to-court-10609587

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brex-pats-take-legal-action-against-eu-chief-jean-claude-juncker-1585452


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> May has no mandate for her Little Britain.
> 
> View attachment 286315
> 
> ...


I thought you weren't allowed to post links to crowd funding websites? Isn't it against PF rules?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> We don't have a written constitution like other countries. So that is argueable that we have a constitution at all.


Your link states it. We do have a constitution, an unwritten one formed of Acts of Parliament, court judgments and conventions. So courts once again to decide rather than a politician with no mandate.

Leaving Brexit, back to the conference and what was said.

How true: https://www.ft.com/content/0e175bc2-8cac-11e6-8aa5-f79f5696c731


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Don't forget President Jean-Claude Juncker is being taken to court as well by Expats:]


I don't understand this as it wasn't him who called the referendum nor deny many of them a say by preventing many from voting, mainly those who've lived overseas for 15 years or more.

That was nothing to do with the EU, that was UK Government policy. It must be disheartening to hear they'll soon have a right to vote on UK matters which is a kick in the teeth for them having been prevented during a life changing referendum. They must understandably be 
very worried.

Re May it's funny to recall how often Gordon Brown was addressed as an "Unelected PM" by his opponents!

If I was a Tory supporter who voted for David Cameron I would be horrified by the direction the party has taken.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> I don't understand this as it wasn't him who called the referendum nor deny many of them a say by preventing many from voting, mainly those who've lived overseas for 15 years or more.
> 
> That was nothing to do with the EU, that was UK Government policy. It must be disheartening to hear they'll soon have a right to vote on UK matters which is a kick in the teeth for them having been prevented during a life changing referendum. They must understandably be
> very worried.
> ...


Gordon Brown was an unelected pm or did you forget that he ousted Tony Blair?
Few facts for you: https://fullfact.org/news/unelected-prime-ministers-common-or-not/


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Thought we weren't going to discuss past matters but there you go. Interesting link though, many thanks.

As with Cameron I don't think Blair intended to remain as PM throughout his final term. Even during the 2005 General Election there was lots of emphasis on Gordon Brown, it looked as if the transition of power was amicably agreed.

That's how it came over to me anyway. It was a long time ago.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Regarding Junker being taken to court, expats want a fair deal and Junker is being very unfair at the moment. Read the articles 

In brief:


> *British expats said a ban on Brexit negotiations before the triggering of Article 50 is "wrong, unlawful and unfair"*


Quoted from International Business Times link in previous post.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

There is talk that Tony Blair wants to return to the front bench:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-party-leadership_uk_57f6c4bde4b01fa2b9039c81


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding Junker being taken to court, expats want a fair deal and Junker is being very unfair .


Why????? The government intended to trigger article 50 the day after the referendum. Had they done so negotiations would already be taking place.

I fail to understand why people are so upset about Juncker's terms. After all 17 million UK citizens told the EU, "Up yours!" In fairness many of the UK immigrants who were denied the vote will understandably be worried, as are EU citizens living here.

It's the government they should be targeting, they called the referendum at the worst possible time with no mandate for the outcome.

Then, certain newspapers are sold in other countries who of course will blame the EU for their predicament.....

Re Tony Blair, different media report different things. The last I heard was his spokesperson saying he had no intention of returning to frontline politics. He has a right to his concerns about UK politics, some may argue he's talking sense but not worth debating. Like Cameron he's "yesterday's man" with no chance of returning to frontline politics if he wanted to.

Before I hear more claims that he should be in gaol please remember the organ grinder George W Bush in this matter too.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Why is it Junker being unfair? I'm a Brit expat.

It's been known all along that 2 years after article 50 is handed in allows for negotiations. Not string along the EU indefinately without handing it in. EU has to look after it's own interests and it's population which is far larger than the UK. The position of long term expats is very clear in in the EU. http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affair...al-migration/long-term-residents/index_en.htm Even short term expats will be protected by human rights which aren't likely to change as soon as they become inconvenient. Of course you have to have "Stable and sufficient financial resources;" to stay in an EU country on the way to becoming a long term resident but even then as an EU national the European Court of Justice agrees, you should have that to be in another EU country anyway. Strange how when pushing the idea of all these polish nationals taking all the benefits this isn't mentioned by the UK government. The precedents are there, supported by EU courts.Non-contributory benefits can be denied them.

Can you say the for EU nationals in the UK are going to be protected, bearing in mind the human rights laws are likely to be abolished and rewritten. You also have the fact the UK has it's own system regardless. Wait, the UK has it's own system rather than adopt the EU one... think about that for a minute. So much for being dictated to.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Why is it Junker being unfair? I'm a Brit expat.
> 
> It's been known all along that 2 years after article 50 is handed in allows for negotiations. Not string along the EU indefinately without handing it in. EU has to look after it's own interests and it's population which is far larger than the UK. The position of long term expats is very clear in in the EU. http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affair...al-migration/long-term-residents/index_en.htm Even short term expats will be protected by human rights which aren't likely to change as soon as they become inconvenient. Of course you have to have "Stable and sufficient financial resources;" to stay in an EU country on the way to becoming a long term resident but even then as an EU national the European Court of Justice agrees, you should have that to be in another EU country anyway. Strange how when pushing the idea of all these polish nationals taking all the benefits this isn't mentioned by the UK government. The precedents are there, supported by EU courts.
> 
> Can you say the for EU nationals in the UK are going to be protected, bearing in mind the human rights laws are likely to be abolished and rewritten. You also have the fact the UK has it's own system regardless. Wait, the UK has it's own system rather than adopt the EU one... think about that for a minute. So much for being dictated to.


There's a group of expats saying that Junker is being unfair the news article is here:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brex-pats-take-legal-action-against-eu-chief-jean-claude-juncker-1585452

This is there cause page which explains everything: https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/juncker/


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

They're still targeting the wrong person in my view though.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Read your links the first time, repeating them doesn't make them true or more significant. Your cause page contradicts itself in a couple of places by the way.

Considering May refuses to even talk about EU Nationals in the UK as they are a important bargaining chip, doesn't really matter does it. Simple answer, hand in article 50.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Read your links the first time, repeating them doesn't make them true or more significant. *Your cause page contradicts itself in a couple of places by the way.*
> 
> Considering May refuses to even talk about EU Nationals in the UK as they are a important bargaining chip, doesn't really matter does it. Simple answer, hand in article 50.


Its not my cause page. Doesn't belong to me.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Its not my cause page. Doesn't belong to me.


Don't worry, they've also missed the point. Without handing in Article 50, the UK is not leaving the EU so there is nothing to negotiate  Doing so simply wastes EU resources.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Congratulations to Theresa on a very impressive first 100 days in office. lol


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

On a lighter note: Found this amusing:





Amazing how many people think it's the UK vs Germany when it's not. Germany is on the losing side of EU voting more than any other country apart from the UK.


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