# Scan.....do we wait? Or not?



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Edited to be gone..........


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

So ... Mismate?


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

my sheep scanner prefers 28-32 days ............


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> So ... Mismate? QUOTE]
> 
> she asked about scanning !


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

[Edited to be gone..........


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

years ago i used mismate jab on a young bitch , she never had another season.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

If she only came into season on 15th October - she surely wouldn't have been ready for mating for at least a week, and probably longer - so when do you think she was actually caught 

Assuming she was caught on the 22nd - then she would be 28 days today


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I know ... I guess I'm just a bit confused. If the scan does show she is in pup what will happen next ... mismate?

Sorry should have worded it better


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Edited to be gone..........


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

A few replies while I was typing :lol: typical.

So what will you do if she's preggers then? And which one will be the father?


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Edited to be gone..........


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

You were planning on breeding Alaska weren't you? 

Clearly this is unplanned. Who has she mated with?


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

swarthy said:


> If she only came into season on 15th October - she surely wouldn't have been ready for mating for at least a week, and probably longer - so when do you think she was actually caught
> 
> Assuming she was caught on the 22nd - then she would be 28 days today


She could have had a 'silent' first week, we had a bitch that used to do this not easy to tell then when they are ready.

Our scanner likes to do them the same time as Dexter's


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> A few replies while I was typing :lol: typical.
> 
> So what will you do if she's preggers then? And which one will be the father?


We only have 1 entire male in the house and thats Kai.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Tapir said:


> You were planning on breeding Alaska weren't you?
> 
> Clearly this is unplanned. Who has she mated with?


If she hasnt had a silent first week then Kai. But if she had a silent first week then unless another dog got in the garden its still Kai.

I was planning to breed her but not yet and not to Kai.


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

I see, so were you going to put Alaska to a stud? Sorry I just remember you were health testing Alaska and planning on breeding her, wasn't sure with who/when etc.

Has kai been tested? He's also a SS is he?


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

how old is kai? was he interested in her at all?

just because she got outside to doesnt mean that they mated? may not have accepted him?

just thinking of my 2, both not mated yet (cats) however she is calling and wont let him near her and he has no idea whats going on as his too young.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Edited to be gone..........


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Edited to be gone..........


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Kai who hasn't been completely health tested yet?

You know if I were in your shoes I would mismate, and if that meant she would have to then be spayed ... so be it. Sad but true. You can't be sure yet that she will have healthy pups. As a responsible breeder it's not a risk I would personally take. It's also the same advice you and I have given to folk who come on the forums in a similar situation (un health tested dogs) .. it would be hypocritical to them do the same yourself.

Not only that, but having entire male and females in your house ... well you knew this was going to be a risk! Don't blame your OH hun, you're just as much responsible.

Anyway this is if it has happened, lets hope not. But bugger me, I hope you learn from it if she hasn't either 

*slips on flame proof coat*.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

i read that dogs can tie for 10mins up to a hour or more? how long were they out of sight??

so his interested then...was hoping you would say no!!


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Kai who hasn't been completely health tested yet?
> 
> You know if I were in your shoes I would mismate, and if that meant she would have to then be spayed ... so be it. Sad but true. You can't be sure yet that she will have healthy pups. As a responsible breeder it's not a risk I would personally take. It's also the same advice you and I have given to folk who come on the forums in a similar situation (un health tested dogs) .. it would be hypocritical to them do the same yourself.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that it would be hypocritical but for many reasons its different...for start its not like they would be cross breeds, its also not like Kai isnt health tested for the genetic bit he's just not hip scored yet.

For me the mismate poses a risk to Alaska that is more of a risk than having the litter. Kai and Alaska are both CEA clear and Alaska has been hip scored.

I also agree I am partly to blame but a crate, 2 doors and rotating the house for me was all I could do sadly I didnt think someone would leave 2 doors open and Kai out of his crate while Alaska was rotated.

I am pretty sure she hasnt been mated but I need to be sure. And if she hasnt then next season I will be sending Kai off to my parents for the month.


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

hmmm, surely the best thing would be to first get her scanned so you can be sure. Then you can make you descision.

I honestly wouldn't know what to do. Where Kai's parents health tested and if so did they score well? Were his eye scores good?


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

must be hard, can he be neutered?


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> i read that dogs can tie for 10mins up to a hour or more? how long were they out of sight??
> 
> so his interested then...was hoping you would say no!!


Well they were together for all of up to 2 seconds from when Alaska came out of the kitchen to me. She ran from him so I am guessing she didnt want to know.

I dont mind spending the money I just want to know what's happening. If shes not pregnant then why are her nipples like they are. That is the question the vets are struggling to answer.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

what colour is Kai?


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Tapir said:


> hmmm, surely the best thing would be to first get her scanned so you can be sure. Then you can make you descision.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't know what to do. Where Kai's parents health tested and if so did they score well? Were his eye scores good?


His dad had perfect hips and both his mum and dad where CEA clear.
Kai is also CEA clear.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

dexter said:


> what colour is Kai?


Tri coloured.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> must be hard, can he be neutered?


He can but we want to use him to Alaska but not yet. We wanted to use Alaska to the stud and in that time see how Kai does in the ring and go from there with him.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

if you are at all unsure if they tied,book a scan for peace of mind .


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

i dont think they could manage it in 2seconds!! :scared:


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

from the very little I know about breeding, personally if I was you, I would be tempted let her have them. She is obviously very healthy, tested, and Kai although not hip scored, comes from parents with good hips, and is clear of genetic disease.

Obviously there will always be differing oppinions on this.

How old is Alaska?


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I do understand what you're saying ... but I would personally still opt for mismate if she is preggers. The risk of going ahead without knowing Kai hip are all good (I know this doesn't 100% guarentee good hips in the pups) ... well one of the RC's I grew up with suffered terrible with her hips in later life. I'd not risk that for anything.

EDIT: another load of replies while I was typing. Just seen that you say Kai's dad had perfect hips, but what about mum, and what about Alaska and her parents? Is there bad hips in their lines at all that would make this a risk?


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> i dont think they could manage it in 2seconds!! :scared:


no it's looking unlikely that she is pregnant. Maybe her nipples have swelled due to her season? :


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I do understand what you're saying ... but I would personally still opt for mismate if she is preggers. The risk of going ahead without knowing Kai hip are all good (I know this doesn't 100% guarentee good hips in the pups) ... well one of the RC's I grew up with suffered terrible with her hips in later life. I'd not risk that for anything.


It's a difficult one knowing you want to breed your girl. I would think it highly unlikely she is pregnant - but you do need to know for sure - you can speculate as much as you want - but until you know for definite, you can't make any proper decisions.

I do know people who have had to have their brood bitches neutered after the mismate jab.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Tapir said:


> no it's looking unlikely that she is pregnant. Maybe her nipples have swelled due to her season? :


They did swell becase of the season but should the skin be blue? 



> I do understand what you're saying ... but I would personally still opt for mismate if she is preggers. The risk of going ahead without knowing Kai hip are all good (I know this doesn't 100% guarentee good hips in the pups) ... well one of the RC's I grew up with suffered terrible with her hips in later life. I'd not risk that for anything.


I understand completely what you are saying but they could go either way, be very good or very bad as they are not proven genetic there is no way of knowing.



> How old is Alaska?


She is 13 months old.



> if you are at all unsure if they tied,book a scan for peace of mind .


I have her booked in for tomorrow at 4pm. I have to travel 30miles out of the way but its worth it.

Litrally where out of site for 2 seconds and if they did mate they didnt tie.


----------



## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

I'd have her scanned. Then if you know you can make a decision from there. I know from your other posts that you would have done everything you could to keep them away from each other. 

Got my fingers crossed for you.


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I do know people who have had to have their brood bitches neutered after the mismate jab.


sorry a little off topic, why does this happen? How does the mismate work and why does it cause some bitches to have to be spayed? just interested sorry


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> It's a difficult one knowing you want to breed your girl. I would think it highly unlikely she is pregnant - but you do need to know for sure - you can speculate as much as you want - but until you know for definite, you can't make any proper decisions.
> 
> I do know people who have had to have their brood bitches neutered after the mismate jab.


Exactly. I always said that if she got pregnant I would mismate but I never looked up the risks...now I know the risks I am not sure I want to do that to her.

If she was a pet dog or not in good health I would have just took of her off ot be spayed.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Alaska is only 13 months  what's the Shetland recommended minimum breeding age?


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Alaska is only 13 months  what's the Shetland recommended minimum breeding age?


12months.

I wanted to wait until 2, 2 and a half.

I know Alaska's mum was bred from 12 months old and thats why I decided I didnt want to breed her until much later on.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Crikey that's a young minimum! I'm not too familiar with the breed ... what age do they say they are fully grown? As in growth plates fully grown etc.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Crikey that's a young minimum! I'm not too familiar with the breed ... what age do they say they are fully grown? As in growth plates fully grown etc.


Fully grown at 10 month old apparently.

Most sheltie breeders breed from 12-18months old but more and more are breeding from 2 years now as it gives htem longer to fidn a stud and show.

Alaska has been the same size since 8 month old. When she had her op the vet told us her growth plates where at full size.....she was a big puppy though.


----------



## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

I would not breed from a 13 going on 14 month old bitch, but i know a dog that had the miss mate jab and then had to be spayed... hope she is not in pup.... good luck tomorrow


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

12 months is way two young! And the KC may accept registration of litters from one year old bitches but many of the breed clubs suggest two years min! what does your breed club recommend? BUT looking on the bright side - maybe she is having a phantom.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Let us hope she is not pregnant. Good Luck


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> EDIT: another load of replies while I was typing. Just seen that you say Kai's dad had perfect hips, but what about mum, and what about Alaska and her parents? Is there bad hips in their lines at all that would make this a risk?


Perfect hips in the parents do not guarantee perfect hips in any offspring! My milly is living proof! Her mum was a perfect 0/0 yet Milly is a 12.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks everyone.

I will know tomorrow....I am hoping that its false because she's my baby I think this has been a big enough shock for us now as we will be installing locks on all the doors now so no one can leave them open. 

She's not got any other pregnancy symptoms only the nipples. So with some luck its something to do with "normal" hormone things.

On the bright side Alaska's loving all the attention she's getting.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Perfect hips in the parents do not guarantee perfect hips in any offspring! My milly is living proof! Her mum was a perfect 0/0 yet Milly is a 12.


Exactly. I have checked hte hip score of both Alaska and Kai's line and both have all got hips that are good hips. Kai's mother was not hip scored but Kai's mums parents where and both had low hip scores.

Kai's dad had a total of 7 - 4/3 
And his mum's parents one had - 3/3 and the other had 2/3

Both lines are eye test clear and hip score'd low.

I actually spent 6 hours the other day looking through the genetics of the stud dog we were planning to use too.

And as said above good hips sadly dont always mean the pups will have good hips.

I remember reading about a sheltie that had 17/7 = 24 total he was bred to a bitch who had a normal hip score of 3/3 = 6 and their litter had hips ranging from 2/2 to 7-7 but none higher than that. Its very strange.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Exactly. I have checked hte hip score of both Alaska and Kai's line and both have all got hips that are good hips. Kai's mother was not hip scored but Kai's mums parents where and both had low hip scores.
> 
> Kai's dad had a total of 7 - 4/3
> And his mum's parents one had - 3/3 and the other had 2/3
> ...


But personally I would still not breed from a dog that had not been hip scored! Nor would I even consider buying a pup from an unscored bitch, I think in this day and age that had become the norm and in my book is the very minimum requirement.

DT


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But personally I would still not breed from a dog that had not been hip scored! Nor would I even consider buying a pup from an unscored bitch, I think in this day and age that had become the norm and in my book is the very minimum requirement.
> 
> DT


I agree with you.

I also wouldnt buy a dog that had been bred from dogs that where considerably more than the breed average. Our breed average is 14...so to breed from a dog in its 20's would be outragous however it has been done in the past.

Alaska's hip scores are good....and hopefully she wont be pregnant.

*Does anyone know if the kennel club have changed their rules regarding when results will be made public? As it used to be 12months and up but Kai's eye tests are up now and hes not 12months.*

As I want to hip score Kai....but the kennel club told me they wouldnt be public unless he was done after 12months old.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

you can't get him, hip scored until he's 12mths plus.

re' eye tests are they his litter eye screening results?
+


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

dexter said:


> you can't get him, hip scored until he's 12mths plus.
> 
> re' eye tests are they his litter eye screening results?
> +


No. They are the ones I got done in august.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

ah right. was he not done as a pup?


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

dexter said:


> ah right. was he not done as a pup?


No he wasnt.

His breeder (as I had said in other threads) wasnt very good...she didnt do much research but had gotten his mother who was a show bitch from her breeder who was retiring and decided to have a litter with Kai's dad who's a top show dog. Both parents where eye tested but I wasnt happy about Kai not being so I took him the day after we got him and got him eye tested myself.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

I didn't realise your bitch was so young - she must have had her hips done bang on 12 months - was she in season at that time?


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> I didn't realise your bitch was so young - she must have had her hips done bang on 12 months - was she in season at that time?


She was in season at that time. The vet I used was very good and let me stay the whoel time...even made sure they had no male dogs in at the same time. They made a guy who was there for hip scores wait until Alaska had come out before taking his male in.

The vet was happy with her at the time, but it was after her birthday that she spent those few seconds with Kai. I have the exact date in my diary as the 24th.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dexter said:


> years ago i used mismate jab on a young bitch , she never had another season.


what drug was used? There are more than one you can use, and out of the two I know of one is more safer than the other. I certainly wouldnt go ahead with a unplanned litter.


----------



## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

i really think your stressing over something that doesnt seem possible if its as you say, the dates wouldnt add up unless youv missed some of the start of her season which is possible and it doesnt take long to mate but a few seconds is very short, plus shes a maiden bitch so id have thought for sure if kai had entred her shed have let you know

But there is always a chance, id have her scanned and hopefully shes not pregnant, i can see your dilemma, lets hope for the best

if she is means shes 4 weeks in and if the mismate carries these risks surely at 4 weeks the risks would be increased

fingers crossed for tomorrow


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

mitch4 said:


> i really think your stressing over something that doesnt seem possible if its as you say, the dates wouldnt add up unless youv missed some of the start of her season which is possible and it doesnt take long to mate but a few seconds is very short, plus shes a maiden bitch so id have thought for sure if kai had entred her shed have let you know
> 
> But there is always a chance, id have her scanned and hopefully shes not pregnant, i can see your dilemma, lets hope for the best
> 
> ...


Thank you very much.

Yeah I agree it doesnt seem possble but I always say better safe than sorry.

I will keep everyone updated but it will be tomorrow night before I know.


----------



## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Good luck with the scan tomorrow, hope it's a false alarm!


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> what drug was used? There are more than one you can use, and out of the two I know of one is more safer than the other. I certainly wouldnt go ahead with a unplanned litter.


No idea as i said it was a long time ago . my blue bitch was caught by my sable boy on her 21st day , i couldn't risk her having sable/merle pups so i had her done.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dexter said:


> No idea as i said it was a long time ago . my blue bitch was caught by my sable boy on her 21st day , i couldn't risk her having sable/merle pups so i had her done.


Yes we have had the mismate on a girl that came back into season 10 days after being in for 3weeks, and was caught. we used Alizin which is given on day 3 and 5. You can also use Mesalin, which is meant to be just as good and can be given up until day 42 after mating. The highest side affect with the pair is the bitch coming back into season, and an 8percent chance of pregnancy continuing. Its the most responsible thing to do once an accident has occured if you ask me. Breeding is taken to lightly by far to many, the only litters that should be born are them that have been researched deeply and were actually planned.


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Good luck with the scan tomorrow hun.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Breeding is taken to lightly by far to many, the only litters that should be born are them that have been researched deeply and were actually planned.


Um, excuse me but I am not taking it lightly at all. I have researched breeding for over 3 years before I even got Alaska. And I know Alaska and Kai's pedigree's off by heart.

I am planning to use Kai to Alaska but wasnt planning it just yet.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Um, excuse me but I am not taking it lightly at all. I have researched breeding for over 3 years before I even got Alaska. And I know Alaska and Kai's pedigree's off by heart.
> 
> I am planning to use Kai to Alaska but wasnt planning it just yet.


I never actually said you! 

But as you bring it up, there is alot more to breeding that knowing pedigree's...and If you felt that you knew enough to be breeding, you wouldnt be asking basic questions on a forum. Ethics are a massive part of breeding, and being a decent breeder. I am already questioning your ethics from other threads/posts and then I saw this..  no un planned litter should continue.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I never actually said you!
> 
> But as you bring it up, there is alot more to breeding that knowing pedigree's...and If you felt that you knew enough to be breeding, you wouldnt be asking basic questions on a forum. Ethics are a massive part of breeding, and being a decent breeder. I am already questioning your ethics from other threads/posts and then I saw this..  no un planned litter should continue.


What questions where I out of order for asking?

And everyone wonders why no one wants to ask questions on here. 

I have memorized the book of hte bitch, have regular talks with my mentor.

Even the best breeders make mistakes. And I want to make sure I have covered everything.

We dont even know if she is pregnant so are you saying I should just mismate her even though I have no proof she even mated let alone is pregnant?


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> We dont even know if she is pregnant so are you saying I should just mismate her even though I have no proof she even mated let alone is pregnant?


In most instances, whether that be an old member or a new member, when there is a post on the forum regarding an unplanned OR suspected mating the overall advise is to recommend the missmate .


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> In most instances, whether that be an old member or a new member, when there is a post on the forum regarding an unplanned OR suspected mating the overall advise is to recommend the missmate .


Yes I know however as I and others have stated on this thread the has risks which in a pet dog doesnt matter as much. As said before if she was a pet only dog then I would have gone out and got her spayed.

If I went got her mismated and she wasnt pregnant but it caused pyometra and she had to be spayed it would have been unnecessary.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> What questions where I out of order for asking?
> 
> And everyone wonders why no one wants to ask questions on here.
> 
> ...


I didnt say you were out of order but you claim to have researched breeding and then ask questions, like what stud to use, to scan or wait.. you ask about the breeding age of your girl after speaking to the stud owner and so on. Read through your old threads. I just have.

You ask questions you get honest answers, Im sick of seeing people post in here and get answers of people who them selves dont really know what their talking about its dangerous/irresponsible.

Yes it causes no more harm to a non pregnant bitch to have a mis mate.  
Mind you if you had researched breeding as much as you claim you wouldnt be on here now questioning if your bitch could be pregnant - and you would have researched the drugs used for a mis mate and know which drug carries which risks.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Yes I know however as I and others have stated on this thread the has risks which in a pet dog doesnt matter as much. As said before if she was a pet only dog then I would have gone out and got her spayed.
> 
> If I went got her mismated and she wasnt pregnant but it caused pyometra and she had to be spayed it would have been unnecessary.


But the risk of pyometra is also a possibility after a phantom, or any season for that matter, a negative of owning unspayed bitches.


----------



## Guest (Nov 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I didnt say you were out of order but you claim to have researched breeding and then ask questions, like what stud to use, to scan or wait.. you ask about the breeding age of your girl after speaking to the stud owner and so on. Read through your old threads. I just have.
> 
> You ask questions you get honest answers, Im sick of seeing people post in here and get answers of people who them selves dont really know what their talking about its dangerous/irresponsible.
> 
> Yes it causes no more harm to a non pregnant bitch to have a mis mate.  [B[By the Mind you if you had researched breeding as much as you claim you wouldnt be on here now questioning if your bitch could be pregnant.[/B]


I can find major faults with the bit in bold.

I know of many good breeders that didnt know if hteir bitch was pregnant or not as false pregnancy's can be just as intense.

I didnt ask which stud I should use, I asked which stud they would use in my possition as I already picked it made no difference for me it was easier than going here is hypothetical dog 1 and blah blah.

I have asked about scan's as I have heard different things and never scanned a bitch before. I know members on here have.

Yes I wanted to know about the breeding age of bitch's because Alaska's breeder and the stud dog owner both said 16months was good. However if you bother to go back far enough you would also see I have intended to breed Alaska from 2 years old...if not 2 and a half.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Find major faults all you like, Im not the one claiming to have researched breeding for years then asking basic questions on a forum.

and if these 'good' breeders litters were unplanned I hope the right/responsible thing was done.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But the risk of pyometra is also a possibility after a phantom, or any season for that matter, a negative of owning unspayed bitches.


To right and anyone that does own and un spayed bitch owes it to the dog to do the right thing. I mis mated one of my show girl, I took that risk because there are enough puppies out there with out me adding UN-PLANNED litters I didnt know if she had taken as had just finished a season and come back in 10 days later. no excuses for carrying on with un planned litters - not ethical one bit.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I didnt say you were out of order but you claim to have researched breeding and then ask questions, like what stud to use, to scan or wait.. you ask about the breeding age of your girl after speaking to the stud owner and so on. Read through your old threads. I just have.
> 
> You ask questions you get honest answers, Im sick of seeing people post in here and get answers of people who them selves dont really know what their talking about its dangerous/irresponsible.
> 
> ...


I am not saying you are totally wrong DD, but Shetlandlover has been very honest here and although she perhaps is not as clued up as you, she is learning and she is posting here for advice. So I feel that she and her dogs need support.

There is no harm in asking for advice about any aspect of breeding, mentors can get things wrong and to get a few extra heads thinking and getting different opinions about breeding matters is no bad thing for any novice. 
Shetlandlover is consulting her vet and that advice cannot be ignored as after all he/she has seen the dog and we haven't.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Just to maybe put your mind at rest, Alizin used as a mismate in later pregnancy is also used in the treatment of pyometra.

There are risks in anything, but I do think there is some scaremongering regarding the use of mismate. Of course, it happens, and we hear about that, what we don't hear about in these circumstances are all the times it was used successfully.

I think the best course of action would be to get her scanned and then the mismate. It's quite possible she isn't pregnant but she is far too young to have a litter.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

dexter said:


> No idea as i said it was a long time ago . my blue bitch was caught by my sable boy on her 21st day , i couldn't risk her having sable/merle pups so i had her done.


I dont know what breed you have/had I just wondered why she couldnt have merle/sable pups? (just a genuine question!)

*****

I think maybe you are getting to stressed out! no point in thinking the worst until tom now, then work out what you will do, otherwise your head will explode with all the advice!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I am not saying you are totally wrong DD, but Shetlandlover has been very honest here and although she perhaps is not as clued up as you, she is learning and she is posting here for advice. So I feel that she and her dogs need support.
> 
> There is no harm in asking for advice about any aspect of breeding, mentors can get things wrong and to get a few extra heads thinking and getting different opinions about breeding matters is no bad thing for any novice.
> Shetlandlover is consulting her vet and that advice cannot be ignored as after all he/she has seen the dog and we haven't.


Of course her and her dogs need support - but dont claim to have researched breeding for years, and give advise to others when asking basic questions your self.

No harm at all in asking questions, yes mentors can get things wrong and its sometimes nice to get opinions of others I get that.
Yes you are right a vet can see her, we cant but vets are not always clued up on breeding they will say she is old enough for this litter imo she is NOT.

The ONLY ethical thing to do is to mis mate thats my honest opinion and thats all I can give.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

just caught this thread and have to say i'd deffo take her for the mismate 12 months is far too young to put her through a pregnancy, and your dog is just a baby aswell you have know idea at that age if he's even a suitable 'match' for your bitch... i had an accidental mating with one of my bitches, it was barely a slip mating but i didnt hesitate to take her for the jab its the only responsible thing to do.


----------



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

I think everyone on here needs to chill out!

ive asked numerous questions on here about numerous things, it doesnt make me a bad dog owner and i think its a good thing to be asking questions and seeking others opinions. Most of the time its just for reassurance, there are times when i think "am i the only one who thinks this? Ill ask" 

Even if youve been breeding for 20-30yrs it doesnt mean you know everything. The dog and veterinary world changes constantly which is half the fun imo.

I enjoy getting others opinions on here, i might not agree but hey, thats life!
We are all constantly learning


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I dont know what breed you have/had I just wondered why she couldnt have merle/sable pups? (just a genuine question!)
> 
> *****
> 
> I think maybe you are getting to stressed out! no point in thinking the worst until tom now, then work out what you will do, otherwise your head will explode with all the advice!


i have rough colours. sable/merle is not a recognised colour in the UK breed standard , its recognised in AKC standard.

i agree SL can't make decisions once the scan has been done.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I dont know what breed you have/had I just wondered why she couldnt have merle/sable pups? (just a genuine question!)


Just Google "sable merle" . Googling can give a lot of answers. 
Sable Merles


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

How did you get on? Or am i too early lol


----------



## Guest (Nov 22, 2010)

dexter said:


> How did you get on? Or am i too early lol


Hey just got back as was in traffic.

Vet has had a good old look and we have a verdict..

Not pregnant.

The vet says she is 99.9% sure she isnt pregnant.

:thumbup:


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Phew!

I am sure you are very pleased.


----------



## Guest (Nov 22, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Phew!
> 
> I am sure you are very pleased.


I am so happy its completely changed my mood around. :thumbup:

Even nicer was that although Alaska has come away with slightly less hair the vet charged us £20 insted of the £70 they told me it would cost. Which was nice.

I had put £100 to the side incase the vets needed more...so I am going to go off to [email protected] tomorrow and get Alaska something nice.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

dexter said:


> i have rough colours. sable/merle is not a recognised colour in the UK breed standard , its recognised in AKC standard.
> 
> i agree SL can't make decisions once the scan has been done.


ahhhh! thanks! i do like merles! 



shetlandlover said:


> Hey just got back as was in traffic.
> 
> Vet has had a good old look and we have a verdict..
> 
> ...


lol yah!!


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Congrats :thumbup: I can only imagine how scary it must have been.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Brilliant news.


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

great news. i'm sure you're relived lol x


----------



## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Thats great news hun :thumbup:


----------



## XxZoexX (Sep 8, 2010)

excellent news! x


----------



## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Good news :thumbup:


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

It is... :thumbup:

I am over the moon. The vet kindof looked shocked when I started jumping up and down saying yes...



My little girl has a bald belly though...


----------



## pop pop (Nov 4, 2010)

so glad you got the news you wanted and as you say maybe see if someone can look after your boy next time to save all the worry x


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am amazed by this thread. How nasty some people have been. I used to have shelties and I did breed some litters. It was many years ago and eye testing was just coming in so I had my bitch eye tested. But hips were not an issue, they are a small breed and it was not thought to be relevant. Also, the recommendation by the bigger sheltie breeders was to breed at around 18 months so on the second season if they were latish with their first season or the third season if the first season was nearer the six months. This was normal and it did the bitches no harm at all and I never heard of hip problems either.

So maybe breeding young and not health testing is not recommended by some people nowadays but it wont actually do any harm in a breed that doesnt have genetic hip problems and is fully mature at under a year old.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> but it wont actually do any harm in a breed that doesnt have genetic hip problems and is fully mature at under a year old.


You cant possibly say that, yes some breeds are known to mature quicker than others but each dog is different. You also have to make sure the dog is mentally mature not just physically.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Did your vet do the scanning or did you get her to a sheep scanner?

If it's the former ... I'll wait till near Christmas for the "I don't believe it! It must be a miracle!" thread :lol: 

How accurate are scans?


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Did your vet do the scanning or did you get her to a sheep scanner?
> 
> If it's the former ... I'll wait till near Christmas for the "I don't believe it! It must be a miracle!" thread :lol:
> 
> How accurate are scans?


:scared:

Sheep scanners are much more accurate than the vets scanners. Infact most vets are useless.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You cant possibly say that, yes some breeds are known to mature quicker than others but each dog is different. You also have to make sure the dog is mentally mature not just physically.


Good point DD! my bitch is just coming up three, and imo has only just matured mentally !


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Good point DD! my bitch is just coming up three, and imo has only just matured mentally !


Same as my karma Sue, she will be 3 in April. Although was physically mature at just over a year, she is still not imo fully mature mentally.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Did your vet do the scanning or did you get her to a sheep scanner?
> 
> If it's the former ... I'll wait till near Christmas for the "I don't believe it! It must be a miracle!" thread :lol:
> 
> How accurate are scans?


Sheep scanner...the vet I use is a "farm vets" but do dogs and cats for breeding/showing. They are the same vets that did the hip scoring because every breeder in my area had reccomended them.


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You cant possibly say that, yes some breeds are known to mature quicker than others but each dog is different. You also have to make sure the dog is mentally mature not just physically.


Small breeds tend to mature mentally quicker than large breeds. But my point was not that you should purposely breed your bitch at such a young age, but it used to be the norm and never did the bitch any harm - so an accidental mating to a dog that was planned to be used later on is not going to be the terrible disaster from the bitch's point of view that some posters are suggesting.

Luckily the bitch is not in pup so it is irrelevant.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Small breeds tend to mature mentally quicker than large breeds. But my point was not that you should purposely breed your bitch at such a young age, but it used to be the norm and never did the bitch any harm - so an accidental mating to a dog that was planned to be used later on is not going to be the terrible disaster from the bitch's point of view that some posters are suggesting.
> 
> Luckily the bitch is not in pup so it is irrelevant.


Yes we breed a toy breed.. and I do see what your saying, but no unplanned litter should go ahead.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Luckily the bitch is not in pup so it is irrelevant.


Dunno if I am missing something here! But is it a sheltie we are talking here!
Because if it i I cannot for one moment imagine that they would be fully matured a 12 months old. Can anyone point me in the direction that states this?
We had a neighbour that breed shelties - we lost touch years back and she must be in her eighties now but she was very prorific in this breed.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Dunno if I am missing something here! But is it a sheltie we are talking here!
> Because if it i I cannot for one moment imagine that they would be fully matured a 12 months old. Can anyone point me in the direction that states this?
> We had a neighbour that breed shelties - we lost touch years back and she must be in her eighties now but she was very prorific in this breed.


I have looked on the breed club site but its not got it on there. As my vet told us and breeders have told me too that at 12 months a sheltie is fully grown.

Mentally mature?.....well.....Scorcher's 10 and she's still a puppy at heart so I dont think any dog is ever fully mature.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Vets will tell you any breed is fully mature at 12months  regarding breeding I wouldnt be taken much advice from vets as they are not in the know, like breeders with year experience and passion for their breed.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Just to add.










Taken from Sheltie Size

Alaska's breeder also told me that she would be full sized at 12months old at the latest.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Alaska's breeder also told me that she would be full sized at 12months old at the latest.


That does not mean she is mature enough at 12months for a litter.  My Star was fully grown at 6months. Doesnt mean I should have bred her then


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> That does not mean she is mature enough at 12months for a litter.  My Star was fully grown at 6months.


*No where in this thread did I say I agree'd with Alaska having a litter at this age.*

If I wanted her to and honestly thought it was a great idea I would have. But I havent....

I want to breed her at 2, 2 and a half. Otherwise I would be upset that she isnt pregnant but I am HAPPY she isnt.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> but I am HAPPY she isnt.


so you say!


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> so you say!


I am happy actually you can ring and ask my vet how happy I was.

Oh wait no....you wouldnt want that because that would mean you couldnt have a go.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I am happy actually you can ring and ask my vet how happy I was.
> 
> Oh wait no....you wouldnt want that because that would mean you couldnt have a go.


Your vet has no intrest to me, not when they think dogs can be ethically bred at 12months


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Your vet has no intrest to me, not when they think dogs can be ethically bred at 12months


That was a different vet...or didnt you read that I had already taken her to another vet who I disagree'd with thats why I ended up going 30+miles out of hte way to a vet that I trust.

A dog can breed at 12months old and have a litter, many people have proven that.

If its right or not is a debate that will always have oposite sides but as I have already said....*I dont agree with breeding a 12month old bitch.*

But obviously you only read what you want to....


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> A dog can breed at 12months old and have a litter, many people have proven that.
> 
> But obviously you only read what you want to....


Yes a dog can be bred from 12months, infact from first season. Doesnt mean its right.

I am not reading what I want, I read what you put. Problem is there are many many holes in what you write - and believe me I am not the first to notice it.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Alaska's breeder also told me that she would be full sized at 12months old at the latest.


Full size doesn't mean mature - I know she isn't in whelp - and I understand your relief - however, I think this is an interesting and important discussion.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> A dog can breed at 12months old and have a litter, many people have proven that.
> 
> If its right or not is a debate that will always have oposite sides but as I have already said....*I dont agree with breeding a 12month old bitch.*
> 
> But obviously you only read what you want to....


Um - a 9 year girl could have sex and get pregnant if she has gone through puberty - but god help us - it doesn't make it right 

it's not a case of what can be done - it's a case of what's right. I know some breeders who have taken litters at 18 months, it's not something I would do - but they are highly experienced people who know their dogs and it's nothing to do with me - BUT - litters at 12 months - the absolute youngest a litter can be registered with the KC is 14 months - because any matings occurring below 12 months won't be registered.

However - things ARE changing - maximum number of litters permitted are being lowered and it will only be a matter of time before we have minimum and maximum ages for litters by breed - so long as they are sensible and enforced - bring it on I say.

ETA - the English Breed club minimum age of mating bitches by it's members is 14 months


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes a dog can be bred from 12months, infact from first season. Doesnt mean its right.
> 
> I am not reading what I want, I read what you put. Problem is there are many many holes in what you write - and believe me I am not the first to notice it.


So.......Which part of

I dont agree with breeding 12month old dogs

Dont you get?

Anyway, dont bother replying to that because you obviously know me, my breed and my vet better than I know me, my breed and my vet.

So if you reply I wont be able to read it because I'm putting you on ignore to prevent silly arguments.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> So if you reply I wont be able to read it because I'm putting you on ignore to prevent silly arguments.


Silly arguments   wow you get worse, I didnt realise you felt that way about such an important thing such as breeding. Not going your way so get all up tight and put me on ignore. well thats fine, you go ahead. I dont have nothing to hide, I also dont ask basic breeding questions on one thread, then claim to have researched for years of breeding. My personal opinions is you have ALOT more to learn before you should be breeding.


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

for god sake DD, why are you still attacking sheltielover?

She has said a thousand times that juts because they CAN be bred at 12months, it doesnt mean it's right...also who are you to judge that she was lying when she was happy that Alaska is not pregnant? 

Sheltielover, great news, I am glad to hear that she is not pregnant, but you can continue preparing for breeding when the time is right  :thumbup:


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I'll tell you why because I only agree with ethical breeding, unlike most on this forum I will not sit back and clap my hands every time someone breeds a litter, plans a litter or when puppies are born. ANYONE asking basic breeding questions on a forum has abit more research to do before having their first litter. I have read this members previous posts and threads, and things do NOT add up. There are alot of members that have agreed with me and left me rep and PM comments. (I didnt go from two green blobs to four in one night for nothing)..  Just a shame they havent/feel they cant speak up..well good job im not scared or worried because I will air my concern. - rightly or wrongly. Im not here to make 'friends'.

People come on here all high and mighty and are not even ethical them selves. Pisses me right off.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Tapir said:


> for god sake DD, why are you still attacking sheltielover?
> 
> She has said a thousand times that juts because they CAN be bred at 12months, it doesnt mean it's right...also who are you to judge that she was lying when she was happy that Alaska is not pregnant?
> 
> Sheltielover, great news, I am glad to hear that she is not pregnant, but you can continue preparing for breeding when the time is right  :thumbup:


I think DD is along with many of us firmly againt the coupling of a twelve month old bitch!


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I'll tell you why because I only agree with ethical breeding, unlike most on this forum I will not sit back and clap my hands every time someone breeds a litter, plans a litter or when puppies are born. ANYONE asking basic breeding questions on a forum has abit more research to do before having their first litter. I have read this members previous posts and threads, and things do NOT add up. There are alot of members that have agreed with me and left me rep and PM comments. (I didnt go from two green blobs to four in one night for nothing)..
> 
> People come on here all high and mighty and are not even ethical them selves. Pisses me right off.


Yes but she hasn't come on here, just bred her dog, and start asking questions. 

As long as I remember reading her posts she has been finding out about breeding and I think she is a responsible breeder. Everyone has to start somewhere...clearly not everyone is born knowing every single bloody fact about dog breeding...

Obviously you were lucky enough 

with regards to the blobbies, well done. I also got some for my posts on here, supporting her.


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think DD is along with many of us firmly againt the coupling of a twelve month old bitch!


As is sheltielover!!! Why are you just ignoring the fact she has said

SHE DOES NOT AGREE WITH BREEDING A 12MONTH OLD DOG!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Tapir said:


> Yes but she hasn't come on here, just bred her dog, and start asking questions.
> 
> As long as I remember reading her posts she has been finding out about breeding and I think she is a responsible breeder. Everyone has to start somewhere...clearly not everyone is born knowing every single bloody fact about dog breeding...
> 
> ...


I havent said she has? But she plans to! 

we both have different opinions on ethical breeding then. I clearly have higher standards than you where dog breeding is concerned.

Of course you are not born knowing every fact about breeding, dont be so silly. You research before you plan a litter or buy brood bitches.

I wasnt born knowing everything about breeding, I have ALOT to learn.

well done, Im glad you got some for supporting her. Like I said im not here to make friends and I will question un ethical breeding practices. Anyone that doesnt cant care to much about the welfare of dogs, and future puppies.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Tapir said:


> As is sheltielover!!! Why are you just ignoring the fact she has said
> 
> SHE DOES NOT AGREE WITH BREEDING A 12MONTH OLD DOG!


EXCUSE ME! who is IGNORING THE FACT??? The FACT is that there COULD have been a mating!

And there is NO NEED to shout! I ain't feeking deaf!


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I havent said she has? But she plans to!
> 
> we both have different opinions on ethical breeding then. I clearly have higher standards than you where dog breeding is concerned.
> 
> ...


Yes she does PLAN to breed Alaska. Part of the planning is learning! I am just completely shocked that this lady is being attacked for asking questions and planning breeding!!!
Alaska is health tested, from good lines, sheltielover has researched a good stud dog, and she is a responsible breeder! I am just completely shocked that people are attacking a good breeder, when you could be spending your time talking people out of breeding their two dogs 'because they should have a litter' or 'they would make some nice dogs' 

sheltielover clearly cares about her dog, has a health tested bitch, she is breeding at 2, 2.5 years with a researched stud dog. She has been planning and learning so WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???

I'm just baffled at what the issue is here!!!


----------



## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> EXCUSE ME! who is IGNORING THE FACT??? The FACT is that there COULD have been a mating!
> 
> And there is NO NEED to shout! I ain't feeking deaf!


Will you stop posting such good things please? I need to spread my rep round before giving it to you again and that did make me chuckle. 

Maybe everyone could agree to disagree as she isn't pregnant


----------



## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> EXCUSE ME! who is IGNORING THE FACT??? The FACT is that there COULD have been a mating!
> 
> And there is NO NEED to shout! I ain't feeking deaf!


well you and DD keep bringing up about breeding at 12 months, even though she has said since the start of the thread that she doesn't agree with it! :confused1:

Yes there COULD have been a mating. But she did the right thing, straight to the vet for a scan, and luckily, there wasn't a mating.
She came on here asking when scans could show if she was pregnant or not, and then to find out the facts and decided what to do IF she was pregnant.
Personally, I dont think she deserved the slating she got.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

AT the end of the day (don't you just hate that phrase? :lol this should never of happened in the first place, just like SL should never have bought Kai with intentions of breeding them together.

Considering SL professes to knowing so much about breeding, you'd think one of the most important things (keeping entire animals apart during a season) would be a priority. Blaming any accidental meeting/mating on someone else just isn't going to wash.

I also would like to say that if Alaska had been/turns out to be pregnant IMO, mismate first, then if she has to be spayed so be it. SL messed up, why should her dog and any future pups have to suffer because of her desires to breed? In fact I would probably go straight for spaying thinking on it some more.

SL you are getting another scan done soon just to be 100% sure she isn't pregnant aren't you?


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Tapir said:


> Yes she does PLAN to breed Alaska. Part of the planning is learning! I am just completely shocked that this lady is being attacked for asking questions and planning breeding!!!
> Alaska is health tested, from good lines, sheltielover has researched a good stud dog, and she is a responsible breeder! I am just completely shocked that people are attacking a good breeder, when you could be spending your time talking people out of breeding their two dogs 'because they should have a litter' or 'they would make some nice dogs'
> 
> sheltielover clearly cares about her dog, has a health tested bitch, she is breeding at 2, 2.5 years with a researched stud dog. She has been planning and learning so WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???
> ...


And I for one weren't attacking Sheltielover! it were YOU making a mountain out of a molehill! Fact is! SOME of us do not agree with any mating at 12 month! WHOEVER that person may be! No offence to you Sheltie xx


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

scanning isnt always reliable and rather than risk putting such a young bitch through a pregnancy i personally would have taken her straight for the mis mate, but i also hope as Aurelia has said you'll do the right thing by her and at least take her for a 2nd scan just to be sure


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Right, just done a bit of googling. It appears that sheep scanners aren't always right, especially in the early stages. I've just read of several cases where a bitch has been scanned on day 33 (before and after too) and the scanner has said no pups, then the bitches have gone on to have a litter.

So SL you are going to get her scanned again?


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Tapir said:


> Yes she does PLAN to breed Alaska. Part of the planning is learning! I am just completely shocked that this lady is being attacked for asking questions and planning breeding!!!
> Alaska is health tested, from good lines, sheltielover has researched a good stud dog, and she is a responsible breeder! I am just completely shocked that people are attacking a good breeder, when you could be spending your time talking people out of breeding their two dogs 'because they should have a litter' or 'they would make some nice dogs'
> 
> sheltielover clearly cares about her dog, has a health tested bitch, she is breeding at 2, 2.5 years with a researched stud dog. She has been planning and learning so WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???
> ...


A good breeder that will be turning puppies and buyers away because they dont agree with what their doing! 

A good breeders that doesnt want to home puppies where she can see them, because she doesnt want to know what the owners are doing incase she doesnt agree with them 

A good breeder that has to ask if she should scan her bitch and when incase she was caught 

A good breeder that comes to the forum asking basic questions, while claiming years of research 

A good breeder that asks a forum when they think she should breed her dog, at what season at what age.

A good breeder that has to ask the forum if she is doing the right thing with not taking her IN SEASON bitch to a show.

A good breeder that breeds from a bitch, whos breeder told her she wasnt keen on breeding on from.

A good breeder that knows about her breed yet wasnt sure how to find out the avarge hip score for her breed, let alone where or how its done.

A good breeder that has been turned down by people for studs, and who have told her they think that the bitch should be spayed and not bred from.

A good breeder that would only be sold a dog from some one if the breeder placed endorsments on it, and had Alaska spayed before endorsments where lifted.

Should she be bred from..well thats anyones guess..All is just some of the things I have picked up on the forum..


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Right, just done a bit of googling. It appears that sheep scanners aren't always right, especially in the early stages. I've just read of several cases where a bitch has been scanned on day 33 (before and after too) and the scanner has said no pups, then the bitches have gone on to have a litter.
> 
> So SL you are going to get her scanned again?


I have her booked in for a 2nd scan in a week. The vet said for me to go home and check my diary first as its so far away,, anyway rung them back this morning and booked her in.

Even the vet has said better safe than sorry. But like she said after she shaved her nipples that the blue discolour around the nipples is because of the growing during season.

Of course I am taking her back, getting her booster at the same time.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I have her booked in for a 2nd scan in a week.
> 
> Even the vet has said better safe than sorry. But like she said after she shaved her nipples that the blue discolour around the nipples is because of the growing during season.
> 
> Of course I am taking her back, getting her booster at the same time.


It COULD be that your girl is going to have a phantom! IF this is the case hold OFF with the boosters.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Is it safe to give a bitch a booster during pregnancy?


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> It COULD be that your girl is going to have a phantom! IF this is the case hold OFF with the boosters.


Yeah well the vet said if her nipples getting any bigger, she starts showing more signs then she can give her a injection to stop her having a full on phantom.

The vet said she doubted it was a phantom but was more due to the hormone level's during her season and because her first season was at 5months old and we where occupied with her leg at the time the vet thinks we could have overlooked it last time round.


----------



## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Is it safe to give a bitch a booster during pregnancy?


No its not


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Yeah well the vet said if her nipples getting any bigger, she starts showing more signs then she can give her a injection to stop her having a full on phantom.
> 
> The vet said she doubted it was a phantom but was more due to the hormone level's during her season and because her first season was at 5months old and we where occupied with her leg at the time the vet thinks we could have overlooked it last time round.


Some manufacturers are FINALLY agreeing that boosters do not have to be given annually! with the exception of lepto that is. And the vets go soley on what the manufacturers recoomend - check them out!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Is it safe to give a bitch a booster during pregnancy?


I persoanlly would not risk it.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I persoanlly would not risk it.


And I DEFINTELY would not!


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Her second scan is next week. Then we are going from there, if its still clear and she's still not right then she wont be having the booster but the meds to help her out of the phantom.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

So what are you going to do if pregnancy is confirmed this next time SL?


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Her second scan is next week. Then we are going from there, if its still clear and she's still not right then she wont be having the booster but the meds to help her out of the phantom.


How comes you have Kai up for stud, isnt he to young?


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> So what are you going to do if pregnancy is confirmed this next time SL?


Well, The vet was as she said "99.9% sure there are no babies" and that was 2 days off a month since she saw Kai for those 2 seconds.

But if on the off chance it is confirmed then I will have to think on it. I did speak to the vet about it after the last scan and she said there was no point in thinking like that because she was so sure she's not. But she did agree that a mismate would be more of a risk to Alaska than a litter. As she said to me "If on the off chance she was and I didnt see it, you would be stuck between a rock and a hard place and it's something that you would need to discuss with us further and take it from there but as you have already stressed a mismate would be a greater risk to her than a pregnancy but the choice is yours".


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> but as you have already stressed a mismate would be a greater risk to her than a pregnancy but the choice is yours".


Please explain to me why you believe this?


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> How comes you have Kai up for stud, isnt he to young?


there are natural remedies you can use - I had a girl suffer real bad with phantoms- the gallistop (to stop the milk )really upset her, (we used a natural remedy - but the name escapes me at the moment ) this has to be used from day one of the season though to be effective'
Out of interest does anyone know of pulsatila


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> How comes you have Kai up for stud, isnt he to young?


:eek6:.........???


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Please explain to me why you believe this?


It is my belief DD! and please ANYONE correct me if I am wrong - that if the missmate is used within the first seven days there is virtually no risk! The longer the pregnancy goes the more risk there is! A bit like in humans I guess!


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Well, The vet was as she said "99.9% sure there are no babies" and that was 2 days off a month since she saw Kai for those 2 seconds.
> 
> But if on the off chance it is confirmed then I will have to think on it. I did speak to the vet about it after the last scan and she said there was no point in thinking like that because she was so sure she's not. But she did agree that a mismate would be more of a risk to Alaska than a litter. As she said to me "If on the off chance she was and I didnt see it, you would be stuck between a rock and a hard place and it's something that you would need to discuss with us further and take it from there but as you have already stressed a mismate would be a greater risk to her than a pregnancy but the choice is yours".


Would you not do what is right for Alaska and then eventually get another bitch to breed from in the future? I know it would be heart-breaking having to start over again but it would be morally right, surely?

Anyway like the vet said she is 99.9% not pregnant at the moment.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Well, The vet was as she said "99.9% sure there are no babies" and that was 2 days off a month since she saw Kai for those 2 seconds.
> 
> But if on the off chance it is confirmed then I will have to think on it. I did speak to the vet about it after the last scan and she said there was no point in thinking like that because she was so sure she's not. But she did agree that a mismate would be more of a risk to Alaska than a litter. As she said to me "If on the off chance she was and I didnt see it, you would be stuck between a rock and a hard place and it's something that you would need to discuss with us further and take it from there but as you have already stressed a mismate would be a greater risk to her than a pregnancy but the choice is yours".


if your vet said the mismate is more risky than a pregnancy than you really need to change your vet SL.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> It is my belief DD! and please ANYONE correct me if I am wrong - that if the missmate is used within the first seven days there is virtually no risk! The longer it goes the more risk there is!


I think DD was quoting SL not you! :lol: but then it is late and i am confused..........


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

I cant quote you DD because I have you on block. But to answer your question, hes on my stud page but isnt up for stud thats why its just copied straight from the "our shelties" page....

My OH makes the website's and puts all the pages up at once then updates them as they go along. Saves making them at a later date.

As I have already stated on this forum a million times, I dont believe in breeding a dog under 12months, I dont believe in breeding from un-health tested parents and I dont want Kai at stud until hes been in the ring.

Thats why 1) there is no price for him, 2) nothing saying hes for stud other than hes on the stud tab.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

You dont put a dog on a stud page if hes not up for stud! Also by putting him on the stud page it indicates to me that you intend to put him out to stud? Hes not even old enough yet to judge if hes a truely good example of the breed good enough to breed from! This is all so sad, dont know why im posting mind im on block so I might as well talk to a flipping brick wall - so much for learning..Guess some just dont like the truth, shame they have the cheek to judge and put down others who are less than ethical yet dont like it when are questioned themselves.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Would you not do what is right for Alaska and then eventually get another bitch to breed from in the future? I know it would be heart-breaking having to start over again but it would be morally right, surely?
> 
> Anyway like the vet said she is 99.9% not pregnant at the moment.


wouldnt be heart breaking as them 'experienced' in the breed dont believe Alaska should be bred from INCLUDING her breeder.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> wouldnt be heart breaking as them 'experienced' in the breed dont believe Alaska should be bred from INCLUDING her breeder.


Why has her breeder said that? I would find it shocking if she is planning to be bred if that is the case. I would have thought the breeder of the bitch would be the best mentor in a first litter?

Is she endorsed then SL?


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Why has her breeder said that? I would find it shocking if she is planning to be bred if that is the case. I would have thought the breeder of the bitch would be the best mentor in a first litter?
> 
> Is she endorsed then SL?


No she is not endorsed....and the breeder is helping me infact she's taking me to the studs house...so DD get your facts right.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Why has her breeder said that? I would find it shocking if she is planning to be bred if that is the case. I would have thought the breeder of the bitch would be the best mentor in a first litter?


Thats what she posted..... so she states she would not support one of her pup buyers that was breeding after telling them not to.. But does it her self..



> I am in contact with Alaska's breeder, When we had Alaska at 5 months old we emailed her and told her we were one day hoping to breed from her and would like her help and advice throughout the process. I made clear I didnt want to breed until Alaska was at LEAST 2 years old, and that I would get all the health tests done.
> 
> Alaska's breeder didnt seem happy about it


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> No she is not endorsed....and the breeder is helping me infact she's taking me to the studs house...so DD get your facts right.


ohh am I all I have stated can be found is people search your old threads and posts!


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Is there a specific reason why Alaskas breeder is not happy fot her to be breed from? Have a feeling I am maybe missing sumthing here!


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> wouldnt be heart breaking as them 'experienced' in the breed dont believe Alaska should be bred from INCLUDING her breeder.


Do you know what DD....And I dont care if I get banned from this forum for this but...

Go **** yourself.

I have put up with your all high and mighty attitude for days now, breeders even experienced breeders dont get it right. And if Alaska's breeder didnt want her bred from why did she reccomend the stud dog for me and is going with me to the studs?

You know **** all about me or Alaska or even Kai.

If I was using Kai for stud wouldnt I have used him to Alaska? Rather than spending money to take her to a stud.

Alaska's breeder didnt want me to breed her while i lived close to her, since I moved she has been fantastic, offering me advice even meeting me at shows to talk me throguh it. Last month she even met Kai and helped me in getting him right for showing.

So your digging at me is pointless because obviously you know **** all about the situation.

Anyway, i dont have to explain myself to you...or anyone.

I came on here for advice and to look for people to talk to who like me care about animals. Obviously people like you spoil it.

I have health tested Alaska and am showing her at our next breed show as her season fell on the last one. I in my eyes have done what I need to do and took advice from some amazing breeders...and some amazing members on here. But I have damn right had about enough now.

Obviously you cant post on here without having your face bitten off by some owner who thinks they are the best in the world and rather than give advice just rip into people.

Alaska is booked in for her next scan but I am NOT posting on here again.

I have the back up of two good breeders who have been guiding me and I would much rather take their advice as they have experiance in the breed rather than you.

So yeah,

On that note for those of you who have helped thank you. But You wont be seeing me on here again.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> No she is not endorsed....and the breeder is helping me infact she's taking me to the studs house...so DD get your facts right.


How come she wasn't happy about you wanting to breed her? I don't get it.



Devil-Dogz said:


> Thats what she posted..... so she states she would not support one of her pup buyers that was breeding after telling them not to.. But does it her self..


Thanks DD. I agree a little hypocritical! We live and learn.......apparently!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Do you know what DD....And I dont care if I get banned from this forum for this but...
> 
> Go **** yourself.
> 
> ...


Also how comes you are breeding from a NERVOUS dog that once BROKE yes BROKE her leg.. DISGUSTING !!!!


----------



## pop pop (Nov 4, 2010)

think it was an owner of a stud dog she asked about breeding with her dog, he said that her dog has breed faults (ears?) so he wouldnt use his stud as it could pass it on to pups and make his stud dog look bad, do think maybe breeding a bitch with faults isnt the best thing to do but each to their own and its not for me to say, you have done everything you could this time to check to see if she is pregnant, however i do question your wanting to breed as looking back on an old thread of yours you stated...

I want to breed her because shes a lovely dog whos puppies will be a blessing to anyone who has them, I want to share what I have. Also shetland sheepdogs are very much a wanted breed and as I have been told many times there are not always enough go to round and people are left waiting for ages for one. 

now no offence but a true breeder doesnt do it because there is a market for their pups,also doesnt do it as there dog is lovely and to share pups around..jmo


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

pop pop said:


> think it was an owner of a stud dog she asked about breeding with her dog, he said that her dog has breed faults (ears?) so he wouldnt use his stud as it could pass it on to pups and make his stud dog look bad, do think maybe breeding a bitch with faults isnt the best thing to do but each to their own and its not for me to say, you have done everything you could this time to check to see if she is pregnant, however i do question your wanting to breed as looking back on an old thread of yours you stated...
> 
> I want to breed her because shes a lovely dog whos puppies will be a blessing to anyone who has them, I want to share what I have. Also shetland sheepdogs are very much a wanted breed and as I have been told many times there are not always enough go to round and people are left waiting for ages for one.
> 
> now no offence but a true breeder doesnt do it because there is a market for their pups,also doesnt do it as there dog is lovely and to share pups around..jmo


Eeeeeek!!!!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Also how comes you are breeding from a NERVOUS dog that once BROKE yes BROKE her leg.. DISGUSTING !!!!


I am shetland lovers fiance.

How the f--u--c--k does breaking her leg have anything to do with breeding her???? WTF?!?!?


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> I am shetland lovers fiance.
> 
> How the f--u--c--k does breaking her leg have anything to do with breeding her???? WTF?!?!?


Thats nice for you.

Its far from ethical - You would not want to put the extra weight on it for starters, I see you missed out the bit about her iffy tempermant?


----------



## kayz (Jan 18, 2009)

pop pop said:


> I want to breed her because shes a lovely dog whos puppies will be a blessing to anyone who has them, I want to share what I have. Also shetland sheepdogs are very much a wanted breed and as I have been told many times there are not always enough go to round and people are left waiting for ages for one.
> 
> now no offence but a true breeder doesnt do it because there is a market for their pups,also doesnt do it as there dog is lovely and to share pups around..jmo


That's quite bad really. I don't know much about breeding only what I've read on here or in books. But I've seen plenty of times that you should only breed when you have a dog that is a very good breed standard and most people say it should be when you want a pup to show.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> I am shetland lovers fiance.
> 
> How the f--u--c--k does breaking her leg have anything to do with breeding her???? WTF?!?!?


Hello Shetland Lovers Fiance. Beautiful langauge by the way Lol!

I would imagine its because having the extra weight/pressure on it could cause pain and possibly be uncomfortable.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> I am shetland lovers fiance.
> 
> How the f--u--c--k does breaking her leg have anything to do with breeding her???? WTF?!?!?


 how rude! ....excess weight! nuff said!


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> I am shetland lovers fiance.
> 
> How the f--u--c--k does breaking her leg have anything to do with breeding her???? WTF?!?!?


But you haven't breed her! Have you?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

pop pop said:


> think it was an owner of a stud dog she asked about breeding with her dog, he said that her dog has breed faults (ears?) so he wouldnt use his stud as it could pass it on to pups and make his stud dog look bad, do think maybe breeding a bitch with faults isnt the best thing to do but each to their own and its not for me to say, you have done everything you could this time to check to see if she is pregnant, however i do question your wanting to breed as looking back on an old thread of yours you stated...
> 
> I want to breed her because shes a lovely dog whos puppies will be a blessing to anyone who has them, I want to share what I have. Also shetland sheepdogs are very much a wanted breed and as I have been told many times there are not always enough go to round and people are left waiting for ages for one.
> 
> now no offence but a true breeder doesnt do it because there is a market for their pups,also doesnt do it as there dog is lovely and to share pups around..jmo


The only thing that makes her "not perfect" is the fact that one ear doesn't go fully up, but her dad is one of the most used stud dog's in Britain and as far as we can see all of his puppies have come out with perfect ears, so obviously it's not genetic!

Any your saying that we shouldn't breed her because her puppies would be lovely to own and have great temperament's and that there is a demand for Sheltand's. So should we breed because _our bitch deserves a litter_ and there are a million of them out there.

We are breeding her because she is a wonderful dog that would produce wonderful puppies and because we want to further her wonderful lines and produce healthy puppies from health tested parents. If we are wrong for that then i don't know why you would want to breed from a dog.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Hello Shetland Lovers Fiance. Beautiful langauge by the way Lol!
> 
> I would imagine its because having the extra weight/pressure on it could cause pain and possibly be uncomfortable.


We have spoke to multiple vets about this and they have said that it has healed sufficiently for her not to have any problems or pain.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> The only thing that makes her "not perfect" is the fact that one ear doesn't go fully up, but her dad is one of the most used stud dog's in Britain and as far as we can see all of his puppies have come out with perfect ears, so obviously it's not genetic!


Her dad is the most used in britain  Its not genetic because no other puppies had it? Ok you havent a clue what you are talking about.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Hello Shetland Lovers Fiance. Beautiful langauge by the way Lol!
> 
> I would imagine its because having the extra weight/pressure on it could cause pain and possibly be uncomfortable.


Well that language is needed when your are bitching at us and bitching about our dogs!


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> We have spoke to multiple vets about this and they have said that it has healed sufficiently for her not to have any problems or pain.


So has there been an accidently on purpose mating or not?


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> The only thing that makes her "not perfect" is the fact that one ear doesn't go fully up, but her dad is one of the most used stud dog's in Britain and as far as we can see all of his puppies have come out with perfect ears, so obviously it's not genetic!
> 
> Any your saying that we shouldn't breed her because her puppies would be lovely to own and have great temperament's and that there is a demand for Sheltand's. So should we breed because _our bitch deserves a litter_ and there are a million of them out there.
> 
> We are breeding her because she is a wonderful dog that would produce wonderful puppies and because we want to further her wonderful lines and produce healthy puppies from health tested parents. If we are wrong for that then i don't know why you would want to breed from a dog.


Breeding, even if for pets, should still be done to try and better the breed in some way.

'' one of the most used stud dog in Britain'' :frown: :frown:


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Her dad is the most used in britain  Its not genetic because no other puppies had it? Ok you havent a clue what you are talking about.


Ok so what other kind of proof do you need because i can't see any test out there for hound ear syndrome!

So explain if there are no other puppies that have come from the farther or mother of Alaska that have that problem how is it genetic then???


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Well that language is needed when your are bitching at us and bitching about our dogs!


Why thank you kind sir  not quite sure where i have 'bitched' unless you mean talking about a bitch? Your bitch 

Also what would you 2 do if when she is pregnant her leg really does end up causing her pain?


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Well that language is needed when your are bitching at us and bitching about our dogs!


no one has bitched about you or your dogs, I questioned your breeding ethics. You didnt like what you heard TOUGH. With breeding you take the good with the bad, if your not perpared for that then you shouldnt even be thinking of breeding - end of.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So has there been an accidently on purpose mating or not?


NO I was revering to the _she has a broken leg you shouldn't breed from her dig_

Nothing to do with mating at all as, as usual all threads that are started are bitched at and twisted so that people can come in and go WTF are you talking about, because it gone completely off the topic the thread was started for!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> no one has bitched about you or your dogs, I questioned your breeding ethics. You didnt like what you heard TOUGH. With breeding you take the good with the bad, if your not perpared for that then you shouldnt even be thinking of breeding - end of.


Well then why do you have to follow us through all of our threads and question every single thing. Do you have something against us or is it because you hate us or our dogs. I don't understand all we wanted was a nice place we could get friendly advice from nice people but this is not what we have found. It is a shame that people on here have to _Question_ everything you ask, say or put, it's turned this place in to somewhere I feel sorry for the people who join and think, i would like a bit of advice about my dog!


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Right.....


All i can say about this particular case is that a sealed envelope was made a loong while ago predicting exactly this "accidently on purpose litter", someone even went as far as to suggest this exact scenario!

As for the benefit of the thread, scans arent always accurate at confirming pregnancy, my own billy-boy is the result of such a mistake.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Why thank you kind sir  not quite sure where i have 'bitched' unless you mean talking about a bitch? Your bitch
> 
> Also what would you 2 do if when she is pregnant her leg really does end up causing her pain?


Then obviously we would deal with it in the best way possible and get a vet's advice not have un-helpful advice from here!

I am offended that you think we would just go ahead and breed from her without regard to her health or asking any advice from vets. You should think about how hurtful your words are not how wrong everyone else is!


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Well then why do you have to follow us through all of our threads and question every single thing. Do you have something against us or is it because you hate us or our dogs. I don't understand all we wanted was a nice place we could get friendly advice from nice people but this is not what we have found. It is a shame that people on here have to _Question_ everything you ask, say or put, it's turned this place in to somewhere I feel sorry for the people who join and think, i would like a bit of advice about my dog!


To be fair this place is great learning. So threads no matter who started them can be and are read by plenty others.

In situations like this one, what should have said: 'oh whoopsy daisy! Never mind dear i am sure it will all work out. It doesn't matter that both dogs are not old enough to be bred from''

Then:

''oh what a shame she isn't pregnant, better luck next time''

Would that be better? And then 1000's of other people will read it and think its ok if their dogs happen to be in the same postion!!

Just because someone creates a thread doesn't mean its all about them... once its made public on a public forum


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> I am offended that you think we would just go ahead and breed from her without regard to her health or asking any advice from vets. You should think about how hurtful your words are not how wrong everyone else is!


The vet would be the very last person I would go to with regard to mating - seriously!


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Then obviously we would deal with it in the best way possible and get a vet's advice not have un-helpful advice from here!
> 
> I am offended that you think we would just go ahead and breed from her without regard to her health or asking any advice from vets. You should think about how hurtful your words are not how wrong everyone else is!


Hurtful? I simply asked a darn question! Vets and breeding advice........like chalk and cheese usually!!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> Right.....
> 
> All i can say about this particular case is that a sealed envelope was made a loong while ago predicting exactly this "accidently on purpose litter", someone even went as far as to suggest this exact scenario!
> 
> As for the benefit of the thread, scans arent always accurate at confirming pregnancy, my own billy-boy is the result of such a mistake.


We have not breed her _accidently on purpose_ that is an insult. We have been planning to breed her at 2 since we got her. I don't really care what you think in your obviously closed off world where everyone has done everything on purpose as obviously accidents don't happen when you have dogs.

And i admit the only way she could have gotten pregnant is when I didn't close 1 door properly but i thought it was.

We have spent months if not about 3 yeares learning everything we can every day about Shelties and breeding but obviously thats not enough because experienced breeders are the only ones that should breed but then all dogs would die out because of people like the ones on this forum, not to say everyone but the select few that seem to have problems with people that just want friendly advice!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

who is snoopy who you have up for stud?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Hurtful? I simply asked a darn question! Vets and breeding advice........like chalk and cheese usually!!


Yes well who has the degree and the years of seeing and treating these injuries.
UHHH let me think it's not the breeders so i don't think i am wrong in taking the advice of the people who deal with these problems everyday not.

The ohh my dog had this once or _from experience i can tell_ rubish is not the advice i am going to take, i mean i will take that into consideration. I know how vets can be wrong but when they are a vets that are specialised in breeding and show dogs. They must be good i mean there where people from Scotland and Ireland there when we took alaska to be hip scored


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> We have not breed her _accidently on purpose_ that is an insult. We have been planning to breed her at 2 since we got her. I don't really care what you think in your obviously closed off world where everyone has done everything on purpose as obviously accidents don't happen when you have dogs.
> 
> And i admit the only way she could have gotten pregnant is when I didn't close 1 door properly but i thought it was.
> 
> *We have spent months if not about a year learning everything we can every day about Shelties and breeding *but obviously thats not enough because experienced breeders are the only ones that should breed but then all dogs would die out because of people like the ones on this forum, not to say everyone but the select few that seem to have problems with people that just want friendly advice!


I thought you had been researching for about 3 years?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Then obviously we would deal with it in the best way possible and get a vet's advice not have un-helpful advice from here!
> 
> I am offended that you think we would just go ahead and breed from her without regard to her health or asking any advice from vets. You should think about how hurtful your words are not how wrong everyone else is!


seriuosly you really do need to change your vet.... Alaska only broke her leg in april she needed 3 ops and had to have a fixator, she was housebound for 3 months and yet your vet has said its okay for her to go ahead with a pregnancy, should she happen to be in whelp, just a few months after such a serious break!

if she was my bitch i'd never put her through it.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Yes well who has the degree and the years of seeing and treeding these injuries.
> UHHH let me think it's not the breeders so i don't think i am wrong in taking the advice of the people who deal with these problems everyday not.
> 
> Oh my dog had this once or _from experience i can tell_ rubish.


Exactly  vets are there for Medical purposes. Not for breeding advice!

My old vet said my old Lab would produce lovely pups, he was extremely healthy etc etc but was he fit to breed? Nope!! Never ever entered our thoughts!

A more recent vet said my Ridgeback could be castrated at 7 months again from a *medical* point he can be. But as a large breed he is not fully mature in all ways until a lot later!!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> who is snoopy who you have up for stud?


He's a friends dog, but i am planning on taking him off the site as she's decided to no long health test him.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Exactly  vets are there for Medical purposes. Not for breeding advice!
> 
> My old vet said my old Lab would produce lovely pups, he was extremely healthy etc etc but was he fit to breed? Nope!! Never ever entered our thoughts!
> 
> A more recent vet said my Ridgeback could be castrated at 7 months again from a *medical* point he can be. But as a large breed he is not fully mature in all ways until a lot later!!


the first thing my vet said when he met my youngest (at sixteen weeks) was Nice pup - you planning on breeding here!

Spect the saw potentially 10 new clients!:scared:


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Another member leaving the forum I see.

Gave up reading at around page 14.

Glad to see Alaska isn't actually pregnant. Time to get the young Kai neutered I think


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> the first thing my vet said when he met my youngest (at sixteen weeks) was Nice pup - you planning on breeding here!
> 
> Spect the saw potentially 10 new clients!:scared:


Vets can be shocking sometimes :lol: i trust my lot with my heart but not if i was wanting breeding advice!!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> Exactly  vets are there for Medical purposes. Not for breeding advice!
> 
> My old vet said my old Lab would produce lovely pups, he was extremely healthy etc etc but was he fit to breed? Nope!! Never ever entered our thoughts!
> 
> A more recent vet said my Ridgeback could be castrated at 7 months again from a *medical* point he can be. But as a large breed he is not fully mature in all ways until a lot later!!


Yes i admit they are not always right but you can't say **** all unless you are using the same vets we are for the medical advice as it not breeding advice where or not her leg will cause her pain if she puts on rapid weight.

Her leg has healed up just fine and we have seen the x-ray from after her leg healed and the bone has healed twice as think as it as so doesn't that make it less likely to cause her problems if she put on weight.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> He's a friends dog, but i am planning on taking him off the site as she's decided to no long health test him.


oh god what is up with breeders not testing


----------



## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

_"Time to get the young Kai neutered I think "_

Can't see that happening somehow ...


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Now I'm wondering what I missed


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

in my closed off world?

Billy is the result of an accidental mating! From his breeder not latching her studs pen properly.

Bitch was in first few days of season (5-7), slip mating witnessed, scanned at 28 days no pups, decided the chances of a pregnancy were very slim and so didnt give mismate. Hey presto, singleton pup (which in itself is risky) totally by suprise! 

I dont know any vet who would advise that a mismate is more risky than a pregnancy, whelping and lactation though!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

sequeena said:


> Another member leaving the forum I see.
> 
> Gave up reading at around page 14.
> 
> Glad to see Alaska isn't actually pregnant. Time to get the young Kai neutered I think


We plan on breeding her to him when they are both health tested and she is over 2 years old and kai has been shown.

We can't show him if he's neutered.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Yes i admit they are not always right but you can't say **** all unless you are using the same vets we are for the medical advice as it not breeding advice where or not her leg will cause her pain if she puts on rapid weight.
> 
> Her leg has healed up just fine and we have seen the x-ray from after her leg healed and the bone has healed twice as think as it as so doesn't that make it less likely to cause her problems if she put on weight.


I don't use your vets (happily after what has been said about them on here!) but i can still say **** all :thumbup:

Have you been researching for months, a year or 3 years? You and SL got a little mixed up i think.


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> We plan on breeding her to him when they are both health tested and she is over 2 years old and kai has been shown.
> 
> We can't show him if he's neutered.


Erm.... then may I suggest a very sturdy chastity belt


----------



## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Yes you can show a dog that has been neutered. One of my boys won a CC after being castrated


----------



## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Time to get the young Kai neutered I think


Noooo cant do that he is gonna be used to breed from,

Although she would never buy a dog that wasnt from health tested parents i sure i read that one of his parents wasnt fully tested :confused1:


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> in my closed off world?
> 
> 
> > Isn't it funny people use that line or something similar when they feel no-one is agreeing with them  :lol:
> ...


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> oh god what is up with breeders not testing


Exactly why he's coming off the website.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Ridgielover said:


> Yes you can show a dog that has been neutered. One of my boys won a CC after being castrated


But was that on medical grounds? Because I understood that you could not show a castrated dog!


----------



## pop pop (Nov 4, 2010)

can you? i thought they had to have there bits still


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

ninja said:


> Noooo cant do that he is gonna be used to breed from,
> 
> Although she would never buy a dog that wasnt from health tested parents i sure i read that one of his parents wasnt fully tested :confused1:


All this is enough to give anyone a headache, dunno how you lot are keeping up because sure as hell ain't 

Doesn't help I have a cat trying to shove its butt in my face.


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Yes well who has the degree and the years of seeing and treating these injuries.
> UHHH let me think it's not the breeders so i don't think i am wrong in taking the advice of the people who deal with these problems everyday not.
> 
> The ohh my dog had this once or _from experience i can tell_ rubish is not the advice i am going to take, i mean i will take that into consideration. I know how vets can be wrong but when they are a vets that are specialised in breeding and show dogs. They must be good i mean there where people from Scotland and Ireland there when we took alaska to be hip scored


Just as GP's will see a whole range of conditions - vets will see a whole range in many different animals of all shapes and sizes - NEITHER will be specialists - whether it be for breeding, managing orthopaedic injuries or any other fairly regular condition.

Vets can be a great help to be on standby when things go wrong in breeding - but mmm - as for general advice 

I don't recall being around when your girl broke her leg - but all this in the first 12 months of her life - give the girl a break bless her.

I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt - but a recent breeding related post started to cause concerns for me that much more research was needed before breeding and I did say as much on that thread.

=======================

I too have entire dogs and bitches living in the same house - on a ratio of 1 to 5 - soon to be 2 to 5 - and while I would never gloat that it couldn't happen to me - because I know damn well it could - and I also know that bitches often don't change until quite late on in their pregnancy - so really - chances are - you would only really notice early signs if you were looking for them - and to be looking for them - you have to have a pretty concrete belief there is a reason for looking  that sounds like more than the 2 seconds described by your OH 

Even moreso if this happened to be a chance encounter / slip mating - it would be quite feasible for there to be only one or two pups in there and few (if any signs  )

People are not attacking the dog - in fact - if anything - I would say the dog is clearly central to the concerns of most of those people who have posted

Just my thoughts


----------



## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Why can't you show castrated dogs?


----------



## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Exactly why he's coming off the website.


But why put him on in the first place?


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> Why can't you show castrated dogs?


Think it's all part of the fit for purpose or something (I just know someone's gonna say sequeena ffs you're wrong again go take your happy pills!!). Got to have your bits ain't ya


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> billyboysmammy said:
> 
> 
> > in my closed off world?
> ...


----------



## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But was that on medical grounds? Because I understood that you could not show a castrated dog!


Yes - you can show a neutered dog - you don't even need to get permission any more - just advise the KC.

However - part of the dogs breed standard is two correctly descended testicles - so it could potentially hinder them in the ring if there is a dog of comparable quality.

as Ridgielover has just said - her dog gained a CC after castration - although - I would guess - this would be an exception to the rule and a truly oustanding specimen of it's breed - nevertheless - nothing against going in the ring and having some fun with a neutered dog as a starting point to learn the ropes


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> We plan on breeding her to him when they are both health tested and she is over 2 years old and kai has been shown.
> 
> We can't show him if he's neutered.


i thought you were breeding her with a different stud when she was 2 1/2:confused1:.....well anyway what are the chances of Kai being the best choice of stud conformation wise to put to Alaska? ive never known a reputable breeder decide a 'stud is a good 'match' for their bitch when hes only a puppy:eek6:.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

NicoleW said:


> Why can't you show castrated dogs?


Something to do with stud duties if he becomes a serious champ?? 

Don't really know! :lol: I am not clued up with the show world! Not really clued up at all...............


----------



## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> But was that on medical grounds? Because I understood that you could not show a castrated dog!


You can show a castrated dog, or a neutered bitch, you just have to inform the Kennel Club. It doesn't matter why they have been neutered.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I hate do-gooders coming on threads and saying enough is enough. But that is what I feel about this thread.
Obviously shetlandlover is now extremely upset, hence the postings by her fiancé.

She is a new breeder, new breeders can say and do things that others can cringe about, they make mistakes, they come out with sentences that show their ignorance over very simple things, however sometimes more worryingly "old" breeders do the very same.

I think that pulling apart everything that shetlandlover has ever posted is not helpful.

We all want ethical breeding, but someone who is asking for advice doesn't need it rammed down her throat again and again and again.
Personally I think they have been very patient, I would have turned on my heel and left a long time ago.....


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

All this is abit odd! Back yard breeders is what you are, Im out of this thread now. I am totally disgusted with the information I have read this evening and want nothing to do with these types of breeders.

Shame on all you members that sat back and clapped this member for being such a wonderful first time breeder your just as bad for supporting such ethics.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Ridgielover said:


> You can show a castrated dog, or a neutered bitch, you just have to inform the Kennel Club. It doesn't matter why they have been neutered.


Well sorry! but I understood that you could only show castrated or spayed dogs on medical grounds and that they had to have a vets letter stating such! I stand corrected


----------



## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

swarthy said:


> However - part of the dogs breed standard is two correctly descended testicles - so it could potentially hinder them in the ring if there is a dog of comparable quality.


What are the rules regarding a DIY make your own lifelike doggy balls and tape them to your dog?


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

NicoleW said:


> What are the rules regarding a DIY make your own lifelike doggy balls and tape them to your dog?


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> We all want ethical breeding, but someone who is asking for advice doesn't need it rammed down her throat again and again and again.
> Personally I think they have been very patient, I would have turned on my heel and left a long time ago.....


You dont get ethical breeding by doing every thing backwards, not taking advice and having a forum full of uneducated members telling you how perfect your ethics are. quite frankly the ethics stink. I might look the big bad guy here and I couldnt give a flying monkies, Il sleep easy at night knowing I had no part in supporting such breeders.


----------



## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Yes - you can show a neutered dog - you don't even need to get permission any more - just advise the KC.
> 
> However - part of the dogs breed standard is two correctly descended testicles - so it could potentially hinder them in the ring if there is a dog of comparable quality.
> 
> as Ridgielover has just said - her dog gained a CC after castration - although - I would guess - this would be an exception to the rule and a truly oustanding specimen of it's breed - nevertheless - nothing against going in the ring and having some fun with a neutered dog as a starting point to learn the ropes


Swarthy - he was pretty outstanding, won his first CC at only 20 months at Crufts and won a total of 9 CCs, the last as a castrated veteran :thumbup: However, anyone can show a castrated dog - I would just advise having a letter from your vet stating that the dog was entire before the operation, and giving that letter to the steward in the ring.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You dont get ethical breeding by doing every thing backwards, not taking advice and having a forum full of uneducated members telling you how perfect your ethics are. quite frankly the ethics stink. I might look the big bad guy here and I couldnt give a flying monkies, Il sleep easy at night knowing I had no part in supporting such breeders.


I will sleep easy tonight too as following this thread has tired out my one little brain cell :crazy:


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I thought you had been researching for about 3 years?


The post was edited! LOL Classic.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I hate do-gooders coming on threads and saying enough is enough. But that is what I feel about this thread.
> Obviously shetlandlover is now extremely upset, hence the postings by her fiancé.
> 
> She is a new breeder, new breeders can say and do things that others can cringe about, they make mistakes, they come out with sentences that show their ignorance over very simple things, however sometimes more worryingly "old" breeders do the very same.
> ...


So what do we do? pat em on the back and say well done?
Nah! if just ONE breeder thinks twice are reading this thread then thats enough for many of us!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

swarthy said:


> Just as GP's will see a whole range of conditions - vets will see a whole range in many different animals of all shapes and sizes - NEITHER will be specialists - whether it be for breeding, managing orthopaedic injuries or any other fairly regular condition.
> 
> Vets can be a great help to be on standby when things go wrong in breeding - but mmm - as for general advice
> 
> ...


I agree that we need to know as much as we can before breeding and we have 2 mentors, that are advising us and teaching us what they know.

We noticed because she rolls over everyday for a belly rub and to groom her as Alaska loves her belly rubs. When she did so we noticed that her nipples where swolen and the base was discoloured, which alarmed us which is why we took her to two vets.

Should we have took her to a non existent dog breeding expert establishment/consultant's?

But the people who replied when we asked for advice suggested vets now is that not to do with breeding?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The post was edited! LOL Classic.


Yes sorry emma has been researching breeding for alot longer than me as i only got interested when we got alaska.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The post was edited! LOL Classic.


Oh yes so i see!! :lol: That tells me all i need to know now!!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> So what do we do? pat em on the back and say well done?


Of course you do this is PF and nothing has changed since my first time here.. Clearly.. The memers have just got better at covering stuff up, and patting breeders on the back for being un ethical.. and then in the next breath do sad faces and say how heart breaking it is about dogs rescues..well the very breeders that their supporting are the very breeders adding to that problem in shelters.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Of course you do this is PF and nothing has changed since my first time here.. Clearly.. The memers have just got better at covering stuff up, and patting breeders on the back for being un ethical.. and then in the next breath do sad faces and say how heart breaking it is about dogs rescues..well the very breeders that their supporting are the very breeders adding to that problem in shelters.


T'is why i ''normally'' stay away from the breeding/pregnancy/newborn pups threads...


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Of course you do this is PF and nothing has changed since my first time here.. Clearly.. The memers have just got better at covering stuff up, and patting breeders on the back for being un ethical.. and then in the next breath do sad faces and say how heart breaking it is about dogs rescues..well the very breeders that their supporting are the very breeders adding to that problem in shelters.


Couldn't agree more! And why do you think I have hung back DD?
and have also noticed a far number of congrats posts of recent for litters that are from untested parents!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> All this is abit odd! Back yard breeders is what you are, Im out of this thread now. I am totally disgusted with the information I have read this evening and want nothing to do with these types of breeders.
> 
> Shame on all you members that sat back and clapped this member for being such a wonderful first time breeder your just as bad for supporting such ethics.


So if we're back yard breeders then oh why are we health testing isn't a back yard breeder in it for the money not the health of the puppies or am i wrong. I mean by all means if you want to point out all the back yard breedery(not sure how to put this word) things that we say and do then by all means do so, but i see that you have left this thread and so you can not back up that statement!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> I agree that we need to know as much as we can before breeding and we have 2 mentors, that are advising us and teaching us what they know.
> 
> We noticed because she rolls over everyday for a belly rub and to groom her as Alaska loves her belly rubs. When she did so we noticed that her nipples where swolen and the base was discoloured, which alarmed us which is why we took her to two vets.
> 
> ...


did you not contact your mentors with your concerns?? if so im pretty sure they would have advised the mismate as a precaution.


----------



## Guest (Nov 23, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> T'is why i ''normally'' stay away from the breeding/pregnancy/newborn pups threads...


I'm planning a litter Acacia - very soon, from my untested bad example ! you gonna congratulate me


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> So if we're back yard breeders then oh why are we health testing isn't a back yard breeder in it for the money not the health of the puppies or am i wrong. I mean by all means if you want to point out all the back yard breedery(not sure how to put this word) things that we say and do then by all means do so, but i see that you have left this thread and so you can not back up that statement!


theres much more to breeding ethically than health testing.


----------



## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I'm planning a litter Acacia - very soon, from my untested bad example ! you gonna congratulate me


Oh go on then! Just cos its you :thumbup:  :lol:



noushka05 said:


> theres much more to breeding ethically than health testing.


Exactly! Its seems people nowadays think as long they health test then thats it they are in the top ranks with the brilliant breeders!


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> So if we're back yard breeders then oh why are we health testing isn't a back yard breeder in it for the money not the health of the puppies or am i wrong. I mean by all means if you want to point out all the back yard breedery(not sure how to put this word) things that we say and do then by all means do so, but i see that you have left this thread and so you can not back up that statement!


I dont mind backing up my point at all.
And no just because you health test doesnt stop you being a back yard breeder at all.

To state a few things that put you in the BYB type breeder for me.

- Breeding from a dog that is nervous.
- Breeding from a dog that broke her leg, needing 3 OPs.
- Breeding from a dog that you have been told a number of times by experienced breeders to spay.
- Planned on breeding from a dog WITH OUT the breeders blessing.
- A breeder that has been turned away by more than one stud owner, because they dont feel she is of good quality.
- Emma stated that she would NOT give support to any pup buyer that went on to train the dog in a way she didnt like or went on to breed from it. (So doesnt give life time support)!.
- A breeder that has already decided that their male dog will stand at stud to the bitch before its even mature enough to tell its a good example of the breed - also standing at public stud.

And lastly breeders that are breeding to supply the pet market because they feel 'its a blessing for people to have Alaska's puppies'.

Also both being on benefits I fail to see how you will be able to afford to raise a well balanced litter.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Of course you do this is PF and nothing has changed since my first time here.. Clearly.. *The memers have just got better at covering stuff up*, and patting breeders on the back for being un ethical.. and then in the next breath do sad faces and say how heart breaking it is about dogs rescues..well the very breeders that their supporting are the very breeders adding to that problem in shelters.


EDIT: just to clarify that the following comment, though not posted by Shetlands fiance, is for him? yeah me too :lol:

I'm not being funny hun, but this is exactly what your fiance has done. I bet she was screaming blue murder at you when you cocked up and posted how little research has actually been done!

As for your comment about us saying to take her to the vets now... that was to get the mismate, to end any possible pregnancy. Which is exactly what you really need to do regardless of everything if you care about Alaska. Then another scan by the sheep scanner to make absolutely sure she's not pregnant.

If the mismate has the very rare side effect of causing Pyo (which I'm not even sure it does?) then she may have to be spayed. That's what happens when you cock up! There is no way Alaska should be put through a whelp at the moment when you take everything into considerations. So wave bye bye to your Christmas deposits.

Also I'd love to know (of course it's none of my business) just how you manage to even fund any of this when you're both out of work and on benefits?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> EDIT: just to clarify that the following comment, though not posted by Shetlands fiance, is for him? yeah me too :lol:
> 
> I'm not being funny hun, but this is exactly what your fiance has done. I bet she was screaming blue murder at you when you cocked up and posted how little research has actually been done!
> 
> ...


No she wasn't screeming at me, i just read over it and noticed that i put how long i have been looking into it and that you guys could have took it the wrong way like OBVIOUSLY you have! As i thought lol! She is getting another scan and we have been told by two vets myabe even 3 that the mismate could cause pyometra. So i don't want to cause possible death to my dog when she has been scaned and has shown no signs of being pregnant. The vets is 90% sure that the nipples is a hormone inbalance that has been caused by her season.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> that the mismate could cause pyometra. So i don't want to cause possible death to my dog


First of all, one of the drugs used for mismate is used to treat Pyo
Secondly when you get a dog pregnant you risk her life.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> theres much more to breeding ethically than health testing.


ok then name them, you do alot of talking with not much backing up of said talking.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> No she wasn't screeming at me, i just read over it and noticed that i put how long i have been looking into it and that you guys could have took it the wrong way like OBVIOUSLY you have! As i thought lol! She is getting another scan and we have been told by two vets myabe even 3 that the mismate could cause pyometra. So i don't want to cause possible death to my dog when she has been scaned and has shown no signs of being pregnant. The vets is 90% sure that the nipples is a hormone inbalance that has been caused by her season.


If that's the case, and you obviously trust the 3 vets rolleyes then surely the best thing for Alaska is to have her spayed without delay? You don't know for sure she isn't pregnant, and even if there is only the slightest chance, this would be the best option for her, and for Kai (who will continue to go insane with an entire bitch in the house, who shouldn't be bred from for a while yet).

Then spend a couple more years learning, and gearing yourself up to do everything properly?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I hate do-gooders coming on threads and saying enough is enough. But that is what I feel about this thread.
> Obviously shetlandlover is now extremely upset, hence the postings by her fiancé.
> 
> She is a new breeder, new breeders can say and do things that others can cringe about, they make mistakes, they come out with sentences that show their ignorance over very simple things, however sometimes more worryingly "old" breeders do the very same.
> ...


Thankyou this is one of the things that these people need to undersand/learn.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> ok then name them, you do alot of talking with not much backing up of said talking.


Just to name a FEW and I mean a FEW as there are LOADS of things that are factors in making you a decent breeder.

so breeding for a purpose.
Using dogs that are good examples of the breed.
Selecting a stud that compliments the bitch and vis versa.
Breeding from dogs with good tempermants.
Giving puppy buyers life time back up if you agree with what they do or not.

All things that you lack in..


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> If that's the case, and you obviously trust the 3 vets rolleyes then surely the best thing for Alaska is to have her spayed without delay? You don't know for sure she isn't pregnant, and even if there is only the slightest chance, this would be the best option for her, and for Kai (who will continue to go insane with an entire bitch in the house, who shouldn't be bred from for a while yet).
> 
> Then spend a couple more years learning, and gearing yourself up to do everything properly?


Ok then what do you suggest we do with kai, if we want to show him(not neuter him).


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Ok then what do you suggest we do with kai, if we want to show him(not neuter him).


Spay Alaska like EXPERIENCED breeders have told you.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> ok then name them, you do alot of talking with not much backing up of said talking.


Look, just reading what DD has said triggered off my common sense ability (I am a fairy damn it! (too much True Blood sorry )). Think about it... what does a medicine do to end a pregnancy? Flushes the womb. Whats does a medicine do to try and treat pyo? Flushes the womb.

It's not that hard to believe is it? Though I'm sure DD will be along shortly to give you names anyway


----------



## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I hate do-gooders coming on threads and saying enough is enough. But that is what I feel about this thread.
> Obviously shetlandlover is now extremely upset, hence the postings by her fiancé.
> 
> She is a new breeder, new breeders can say and do things that others can cringe about, they make mistakes, they come out with sentences that show their ignorance over very simple things, however sometimes more worryingly "old" breeders do the very same.
> ...


I think this is a brilliant post and I agree 100%. I think its such a shame someone asks for advice and literally get advice rammed down their throat for it.

I mean everyone knows if you have a possible accidental mating you would get flamed on here, its not like SL HAD to do a thread on it, she could have hidden the fact something could have happened but she was open about it.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Ok then what do you suggest we do with kai, if we want to show him(not neuter him).


Well if you get Alaska spayed it will help him, but also you've read the posts in this thread? SO you should now know you can show a castrated dog?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> No she wasn't screeming at me, i just read over it and noticed that i put how long i have been looking into it and that you guys could have took it the wrong way like OBVIOUSLY you have! As i thought lol! She is getting another scan and we have been told by two vets myabe even 3 that the mismate could cause pyometra. So i don't want to cause possible death to my dog when she has been scaned and has shown no signs of being pregnant. The vets is 90% sure that the nipples is a hormone inbalance that has been caused by her season.


that is such an irresponsible thing to say on an open forum! the risk of pyo is minimal with the jab and god forbid a bitch was unlucky enough to develop pyo because of it so long as shes taken to the vets quickly and spayed she should be perfectly fine, ...the risk of death through whelping complications is far greater than any mismate jab ...


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Just to name a FEW and I mean a FEW as there are LOADS of things that are factors in making you a decent breeder.
> 
> so breeding for a purpose. -We are doing.
> Using dogs that are good examples of the breed. - Alaska has one fault and i'm sure that all dogs are not perfect.
> ...


Even alaska's breeder recommended the stood dog that we are using and Kai is from one of the same lines as kai.


----------



## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Well if you get Alaska spayed it will help him, but also you've read the posts in this thread? SO you should now know you can show a castrated dog?


Its not that simple though it can influence how well the dog does.

Plus if Kai happens to do well that means they can't stud him out at that point unless they do the whole freezing sperm thing which I know in horses I have heard dubious things about.

I don't see the point in this thread I'm not sure its going anywhere. I only read to see how Alaska did and was pleased to see the result that SL wanted, don't think there is an awful lot useful on here because without reading the whole thing its hard to get the gist of who is who and why they are saying what they are. I can't see many people coming on here and reading 26 odd pages either...


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

GoldenShadow said:


> Its not that simple though it can influence how well the dog does.
> 
> Plus if Kai happens to do well that means they can't stud him out at that point unless they do the whole freezing sperm thing which I know in horses I have heard dubious things about.


No one told them to castrate Kai???


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Even alaska's breeder recommended the stood dog that we are using and Kai is from one of the same lines as kai.


Thats nice, but my point is Emma stilled planned to breed Alaska when the breeder said she wasnt happy about it. The breeder has now changed her mind but thats neither here nor there - she didnt give you her blessing to start with and you was still going ahead with it.


----------



## ninja (Jan 4, 2009)

haha dont you just love it when peeps edit their posts so anybody else reading the thread cant tell what was said at the begining,,,,,,


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Blimey the forum has been busy while I've been offline!



> All i can say about this particular case is that a sealed envelope was made a loong while ago predicting exactly this "accidently on purpose litter", someone even went as far as to suggest this exact scenario!


Well, I have to agree. SL isnt the first new breeder like this on the forum, and I doubt will be the last. Its just that some of us can read the signs very early on!



> We are breeding her because she is a wonderful dog that would produce wonderful puppies and because we want to further her wonderful lines and produce healthy puppies from health tested parents. If we are wrong for that then i don't know why you would want to breed from a dog.


With the greatest of respect, how are you going to further her lines? Her lines come behind her, they are not your lines and if her sire was prolific, you can be rest assured that there will be far better examples being bred that will be more than sufficient to continue the lines.



> but her dad is one of the most used stud dog's in Britain


Well, if there are so many of his pups, then that is even more reason not to breed from your bitch as due to the ear problems it would seem there are a lot more better examples of the breed to carry on the lines.



> Alaska only broke her leg in april she needed 3 ops and had to have a fixator, she was housebound for 3 months and yet your vet has said its okay for her to go ahead with a pregnancy, should she happen to be in whelp, just a few months after such a serious break!


Jeez  regardless of what your vet said (which is questionable given the poor advice they have given you regarding the mismate) why would YOU put your bitch through pregnancy when she has suffered this way. Do you not care enough for your bitch to put her before your selfish desire to breed????



> I mean everyone knows if you have a possible accidental mating you would get flamed on here,


Actually, I have just read this post from start to finish and the OP was not flamed for the accidental mating, but her refusal to consider a mismate and instead go ahead with a pregnancy between a bitch that shouldnt be bred from and a dog that hasnt been health tested.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> that is such an irresponsible thing to say on an open forum! the risk of pyo is minimal with the jab and god forbid a bitch was unlucky enough to develop pyo because of it so long as shes taken to the vets quickly and spayed she should be perfectly fine, ...the risk of death through whelping complications is far greater than any mismate jab ...


Completely agree - and Alizin (which is used in later pregnancy) is actually used in the treatment of pyometra!

Few vets have much if any experience of breeding, but what's even worse is how some people only read the posts they want to 

There is absolutely NO reason not to go ahead with a mismate. There have been plenty of 'accidental' litters on here that, surprise, surprise, the owners (or breeders to be) decide against using the mismate and go ahead with the litter......

So, it becomes clear that having a litter is more important to them than their dogs welfare and the future pups.... and in those cases, we can't change things, but please don't kid us that you are doing it for the best of reasons, because the ONLY reason not to get a mismate is a selfish one.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont mind backing up my point at all.
> And no just because you health test doesnt stop you being a back yard breeder at all.
> 
> To state a few things that put you in the BYB type breeder for me.
> ...


Have you listened to me at all or shetlandlover


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Have you listened to me at all or shetlandlover


Have you or shetlandlover listened to ANY of the advice re the mismate?


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Emma didnt say she was reserved with strangers she said she was nervous due to breaking her leg. Breeding from a nervous dog is NOT a wise thing to do.
Like has been said before, change vets.
No stud owner would tell you, that you cant use their dog at stud for the fault of one ear? After all the studs are their to compliment the bitch and pick up on her weak points and vis versa.

Emma said that the breeder did NOT want you to breed, and you was still planning on doing so. I can link you to the post if you so wish? Infact I have already done it in this thread.

IF you breed a pup, you owe it a life time of support, you can not turn it away because you dont agree with the owners. Thats far from ethical.

Yes I have listened enough to know you have all the wrong morals, and are not yet ready to take on the huge challange and responsability of breeding.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Blimey the forum has been busy while I've been offline!
> 
> Well, I have to agree. SL isnt the first new breeder like this on the forum, and I doubt will be the last. Its just that some of us can read the signs very early on!
> 
> ...


You say consider it's more like shoved down your throat, if it's not done the way you think it should be done then it's completely wrong. We have considered the mismate and we feel it's not worth her dying when two vets have said it's not worth the risk when all signs are saying she is not pregnant.

We are furthering the lines, every dog has faults not every dog is perfect in every way, or am i wrong and you all have perfect in every way dogs because that is the impression, oh and you don't do anything wrong because if you had an accident you would understand how worrying and stressful it is when you worry that your dog my die from whelping at this age.

Also we are planning to start our own lines, or is that something that we're not allowed to do also. We are doing everything we can to ensure that alaska is well and healthy, if taking vets advice of people on a forum is wrong then i guess for the life of me i don't want to be right.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Emma didnt say she was reserved with strangers she said she was nervous due to breaking her leg. Breeding from a nervous dog is NOT a wise thing to do.
> Like has been said before, change vets.
> No stud owner would tell you, that you cant use their dog at stud for the fault of one ear? After all the studs are their to compliment the bitch and pick up on her weak points and vis versa.
> 
> ...


Yes well not everyone can put things so elegantly as you. Yes that may have been said but the truth is that she is only wary/nervous around strangers.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Have you or shetlandlover listened to ANY of the advice re the mismate?


yes but i think i will take advice of vets more than people on a forum. If i had met you and your dogs at a show and you have bread dogs for years then maybe but i know nothing about you i can't even say what you say on here is the truth.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> You say consider it's more like shoved down your throat, if it's not done the way you think it should be done then it's completely wrong. We have considered the mismate and we feel it's not worth her dying when two vets have said it's not worth the risk when all signs are saying she is not pregnant.
> 
> We are furthering the lines, every dog has faults not every dog is perfect in every way, or am i wrong and you all have perfect in every way dogs because that is the impression, oh and you don't do anything wrong because if you had an accident you would understand how worrying and stressful it is when you worry that your dog my die from whelping at this age.
> 
> Also we are planning to start our own lines, or is that something that we're not allowed to do also. We are doing everything we can to ensure that alaska is well and healthy, if taking vets advice of people on a forum is wrong then i guess for the life of me i don't want to be right.


So you are going to start your own line from a dog that no one will put their stud to, and a dog brought from a BYB? Ok well just remember that the breeding world is a small place, and every one knows everyone else, and believe me if they dont know you, they will know your whole life story - people talk. These are the people that you should be trying to impress, and show that you are just as passionate about their breed as they are. Yet I fail to see one thing that shows others you are passionate about the breed, and wanting to breed for any ethical reason.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> and we feel it's not worth her dying when two vets have said it's not worth the risk when all signs are saying she is not pregnant.


Are either of those vets reproductive specialists - I'll be the answer is NO.



I'm not sure why you think your bitch would die if you gave her the mismate - I've never heard such a lot of rubbish - but it you WANT to believe that then we can't stop you, but please don't expect us to respect it OR not correct it when on an open forum that is read by many others.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

One more thing I will add to this before I go to bed.

You can stay up all night and delete all your posts hun, but as you know full well they are all 100% in tact on Google cache. I've just checked and will confirm the posts on this thread from start, to wherever it finishes are there already  So why not go get yourself some sleep, I think you'll have some big decisions to make tomorrow (or today as the case may be ).


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Thats nice, but my point is Emma stilled planned to breed Alaska when the breeder said she wasnt happy about it. The breeder has now changed her mind but thats neither here nor there - she didnt give you her blessing to start with and you was still going ahead with it.


Oh yes she did she changed her mind after she told us in the first place. We had alaska and asked her about breeding her and then she suggested the stud dog but then she changed her mind and was off with us about it.

Not the other way round as you seem to think it is


----------



## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> No one told them to castrate Kai???


Did a few pages back and the way the term castrated was used as opposed to spay I thought Aurelia mentioned it above also but perhaps she meant it for Alaska? I thought castrate was the male op is all.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Yes well not everyone can put things so elegantly as you. Yes that may have been said but the truth is that she is only wary/nervous around strangers.


Yours and Emmas story keeps changing. what have I picked up to much info for your liking, people have picked up the info I found and used it against you? Truth hurts but all I have posted it what you and Emma said yourself. 

You dont care about the breed, or breeding ethically - You are breeding because YOU want to. and btw you risk a bitches life everything you put her in pup. Just remember that when you want to bring up about risking her life for the mis mate which is actually alot safer. LOL Have you even researched the mismates?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Are either of those vets reproductive specialists - I'll be the answer is NO.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure why you think your bitch would die if you gave her the mismate - I've never heard such a lot of rubbish - but it you WANT to believe that then we can't stop you, but please don't expect us to respect it OR not correct it when on an open forum that is read by many others.


You have a fair point i don't mind you correcting it or believing what we say but then to begin with people on here could have done it in a nice way not a harsh way.

If you all carry on, no one is going to listen to you just because you have upset and offended them, its a simple fact.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yours and Emmas story keeps changing. what have I picked up to much info for your liking, people have picked up the info I found and used it against you? Truth hurts but all I have posted it what you and Emma said yourself.
> 
> You dont care about the breed, or breeding ethically - You are breeding because YOU want to. and btw you risk a bitches life everything you put her in pup. Just remember that when you want to bring up about risking her life for the mis mate which is actually alot safer. LOL Have you even researched the mismates?


Yes well this is why we are waiting to see how things go we have not whole heartedly decided to breed alaska and nothing ever can change our minds. I mean maybe she will prove to be unstable in the next year or so but as far as we are aware at this moment in time it is the course of action that we have chosen to take.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Oh yes she did she changed her mind after she told us in the first place. We had alaska and asked her about breeding her and then she suggested the stud dog but then she changed her mind and was off with us about it.
> 
> Not the other way round as you seem to think it is





shetlandlover said:


> I am in contact with Alaska's breeder, When we had Alaska at 5 months old we emailed her and told her we were one day hoping to breed from her and would like her help and advice throughout the process. I made clear I didnt want to breed until Alaska was at LEAST 2 years old, and that I would get all the health tests done.
> 
> Alaska's breeder didnt seem happy about it and told us why because we lived to close to her, anyway, she suggested a few studs including a stud called robbie, and Alaska's granddad.


http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/119947-do-i-tell-her.html#post1804533


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but then to begin with people on here could have done it in a nice way not a harsh way.


They tried at first, but due to the reaction (which was expected) they probably got a little exasperated.

.......... Is anyone else getting a feeling of deja vu with this thread


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Yes well this is why we are waiting to see how things go we have not whole heartedly decided to breed alaska and nothing ever can change our minds. I mean maybe she will prove to be unstable in the next year or so but as far as we are aware at this moment in time it is the course of action that we have chosen to take.


Like I said BYB.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/119947-do-i-tell-her.html#post1804533


Fair enough then but i've read the email and seen it all from my side of the screen. When we originally picked her up she suggested a mate and also colours of dogs if we one day wanted to breed her.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Fair enough then but i've read the email and seen it all from my side of the screen. When we originally picked her up she suggested a mate and also colours of dogs if we one day wanted to breed her.


Seems you and Emma are telling different stories. I would suggest you dont try and make out im lying when all I have to do is look through old threads, to back up what im saying.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> When we originally picked her up she suggested a mate and also colours of dogs if we one day wanted to breed her.


Well, I'm sorry to say, but it doesn't say much for your breeder if they can tell what dog would be a suitable stud dog when you pick them up as a 8 week old pup!


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Like I said BYB.


In what way? Like i said start giving reasons so other people can usderstand what you are saying not just saying one statement that is not helpful to us or people who read this thread. I mean i thought that is what this forum was for, or am i wrong.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> In what way? Like i said start giving reasons so other people can usderstand what you are saying not just saying one statement that is not helpful to us or people who read this thread. I mean i thought that is what this forum was for, or am i wrong.


I did pages back .. Two secs and I will re quote it. Just shows you have not been reading


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont mind backing up my point at all.
> And no just because you health test doesnt stop you being a back yard breeder at all.
> 
> To state a few things that put you in the BYB type breeder for me.
> ...


...............


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

When a lot of people who care deeply about the welfare of animals, can see you both appearing to ignore advice about mismate ... and can clearly see where this is going, they will get mad too!

This is where I predict this will go if no mismate is administered:

Christmas time on another forums somewhere out there...

Help my sheltie is in labour/just about to give birth. It shouldn't be happening, we had her scanned by a vet ... blah blah blah we were told she wasn't pregnant, and the mismate would kill her so there was no need ....

I just hope the following doesn't happen :

My sheltie is so exhausted and sounds in so much pain. The vet says her previous fracture has opened up again due to the weight of her carrying the pups. I feel so bad for her crying like this.

Well day 10 and we have been hand feeding the pups since Alaska's op to fix her fracture. We have lost 3 of the 6 pups, but the 3 remaining ones are doing fine.

Day 13, Alaska suffered too much, her body couldn't take the stress of the operation after such a traumatic whelp. She died, and the last of her pups died today as well. 

Cue £4k+ vet bill.


Seriously, there are many more things that can go wrong if you ignore the advice about mismate. Sooo many, and they all involve the suffering of animals. Yes you could be lucky and find that she isn't pregnant after all, but are you really willing to take the risk?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

sorry too late i was wrong


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> A good breeder that will be turning puppies and buyers away because they dont agree with what their doing!
> 
> A good breeders that doesnt want to home puppies where she can see them, because she doesnt want to know what the owners are doing incase she doesnt agree with them
> 
> ...


and another of my previous posts to Emma when someone stated she was a 'good breeder'.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Seriously, there are many more things that can go wrong if you ignore the advice about mismate. Sooo many, and they all involve the suffering of animals. Yes you could be lucky and find that she isn't pregnant after all, but are you really willing to take the risk?


Sadly thats all to true. Mind some people shouldnt plan to breed fleas let alone dogs.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> When a lot of people who care deeply about the welfare of animals, can see you both appearing to ignore advice about mismate ... and can clearly see where this is going, they will get mad too!
> 
> This is where I predict this will go if no mismate is administered:
> 
> ...


That's one way to put it but like i said if it's not your advice but the medical experts advice on her leg the OMG we are wrong and OBV will be proved so.

I can't wait till christmas comes and goes with no pups and prove the lot of you wrong!

Oh and if there is any other signs of pregnancy then we will take her back to the vet.

_Cue £4k+ vet bill._ she is insured and i know that it doesn't cover everything but what else can we do.

Risk our dogs life because you say it's safe... Oh aren't you telling us to do that but with the vet.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Risk our dogs life because you say it's safe...


Your doing that any way..


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Your doing that any way..


Yes but we're doing that your way too suggest a non life risking option and we will defiantly consider it as that is what the forums for.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> That's one way to put it but like i said if it's not your advice but the medical experts advice on her leg the OMG we are wrong and OBV will be proved so.
> 
> I can't wait till christmas comes and goes with no pups and prove the lot of you wrong!
> 
> ...


Do you have breeders insurance? I'm not sure that will even cover whelping complications? but I don't think normal insurance does either. Do you have 4k+ (that's a guess btw it could be more or less) in savings to cover it if not?

If you don't believe us about the mismate, call 10 different vets tomorrow and see what they say  But I do know whatever risks there are, they increase the longer you wait.

Also I'm concerned about any health problems you may have with your dogs. How long was it you waited to get Alaska to a vet after she had fallen through the banisters again? If a fall like that was hard enough to break her leg so badly, she could well of had internal bleeding or anything, yet you still waited.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Do you have breeders insurance? I'm not sure that will even cover whelping complications? but I don't think normal insurance does either. Do you have 4k+ (that's a guess btw it could be more or less) in savings to cover it if not?
> 
> If you don't believe us about the mismate, call 10 different vets tomorrow and see what they say  But I do know whatever risks there are, they increase the longer you wait.
> 
> Also I'm concerned about any health problems you may have with your dogs. How long was it you waited to get Alaska to a vet after she had fallen through the banisters again? If a fall like that was hard enough to break her leg so badly, she could well of had internal bleeding or anything, yet you still waited.


No the falling through the banister was kai and he was fine after 20 mins he was walking around and then we took him the next day and he was checked over and was fine and the fall was at 12am. With "ALASKA" we waited all of 9 hours from 11pm to 8am when then emergency vet was open and we gave her the recommended painkillers suggested by the emergency vet over the phone that night, so we did everything that we could with that, also every week we went back for check ups to make sure she was ok and if the slightest thing happened we went straight back.

Like there was a small amount of blood coming from the bandage so we got to the vets with in the hour to make sure she was ok even though over the phone the vet said that it was normal as it needed to settle after having the fixator on.

Also the Kennel Clubs own insurance with breeders plan added covers all whelping complications, c-sections, all puppies upto 2 months and fertility treatment and costs £50. I know this for fact as i have checked there website had a quote over the phone and have had paperwork sent out for the quote so it's not just "a phone call to the insurenace and then _said so_.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> a non life risking option


What is this life risking option?



> If you don't believe us about the mismate, call 10 different vets tomorrow and see what they say


Better still, call Angelika von Heimendahl at Cambridge - she is one of the leading fertility and reproduction experts. I know what her views are but then again, they may not suit you.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Ah that's right http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-heal...ns-external-fixator.html?highlight=alaska+leg. I wasn't sure I had that right, I was going from memory.

Though looking at those two images  I actually can't believe you two are willing to risk this, and it makes my scenarios seem even more possible should she be pregnant. I would have thought anyone who has seen their dog go through something like that would take EVERY precaution to make sure no mating took place, but then if it did for what ever reason, you'd do the right thing to ensure a whelping never happens.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> Ah that's right http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-heal...ns-external-fixator.html?highlight=alaska+leg. I wasn't sure I had that right, I was going from memory.
> 
> Though looking at those two images  I actually can't believe you two are willing to risk this, and it makes my scenarios seem even more possible should she be pregnant. I would have thought anyone who has seen their dog go through something like that would take EVERY precaution to make sure no mating took place, but then if it did for what ever reason, you'd do the right thing to ensure a whelping never happens.


Told you.. Disgusting huh? Still I wonder why it took me to mention something before all these members realised what was going on? I guess potentail pup buyers will be just as blind to it all..


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Also the Kennel Clubs own insurance with breeders plan added covers all whelping complications, c-sections, all puppies upto 2 months and fertility treatment and costs £50. I know this for fact as i have checked there website had a quote over the phone and have had paperwork sent out for the quote so it's not just "a phone call to the insurenace and then _said so_.


And do you know for sure they would cover whelping complications due to the fact her fracture re opens (or whatever term is used). I'm pretty sure that would be a pre existing condition, and that the problems with whelping could have been avoided had she not been bred. I could be wrong but I doubt they would cover it.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I actually can't believe you two are willing to risk this


Unfortunately, for some, the desire to breed (for a great variety of reasons) exceeds ALL else, including the welfare of the bitch, whether it's a wise decision and the implications. Sadly there are too many such breeders who once they decide to breed, nothing steer them off their course.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> What is this life risking option?
> 
> Better still, call Angelika von Heimendahl at Cambridge - she is one of the leading fertility and reproduction experts. I know what her views are but then again, they may not suit you.


Have you not been listening to what i have been saying the mismate comes with life threatening risks how ever big or small, with her leg we had no option we had to put her through so many anaesthetics and worry so much about how much we were risking her life but the other option wasn't worth it. This time i don't want to risk it in any way.

You can send me her number then.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I wonder if they will listen to Tanya, the voice of reason.

Would you listen to Tanya Emma? I know you would, and you also know full well what her advice would be. Please think about it.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> This time i don't want to risk it in any way.


But you're happy to put her at risk by putting her through pregnancy?
mmmm



> You can send me her number then.


That sounds like a demand rather than a request!

And I don't respond to demands - you can find it easily enough on the www - just google it.

If you really care and want to find the right information you will research - but - you've already said that you will believe your vets - could that be because they've given you the answer you want to hear


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Have you not been listening to what i have been saying the mismate comes with life threatening risks how ever big or small, with her leg we had no option we had to put her through so many anaesthetics and worry so much about how much we were risking her life but the other option wasn't worth it. This time i don't want to risk it in any way.
> 
> You can send me her number then.


I think your just making excuses not to have it done. no breeder should put puppies before the welfare of the bitch. 
You would be to late for the Mesalin jab now, but could still have the Alazin. why not do the right thing by your dog, who in actual fact should never be bred. If you breed her you would be one selfish, heartless prat that didnt care two hoots about her welfare.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Yes well this is why we are waiting to see how things go we have not whole heartedly decided to breed alaska and nothing ever can change our minds. I mean maybe she will prove to be unstable in the next year or so but as far as we are aware at this moment in time it is the course of action that we have chosen to take.


Do you not listen at all i have already told you that we intend to see how thing go and then if all is well at the time breed. The argument here is not that we want to breed over all costs to her life.

The argument here is that we don't want to risk her life with pyometra due to the mismate, beacuse as far as i am aware we might not even see the signs of it till it is too late.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Do you not listen at all


More than you do it would appear!

You're not prepared to take the small risk of pyometra if using the mismate, but you are happy to take the much greater risk of pregnancy!

I think it's pretty clear.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Do you not listen at all i have already told you that we intend to see how thing go and then if all is well at the time breed. The argument here is not that we want to breed over all costs to her life.
> 
> The argument here is that we don't want to risk her life with pyometra due to the mismate, beacuse as far as i am aware we might not even see the signs of it till it is too late.


I hate to break this to you, but she is at risk of Pyo even if you don't mismate and she isn't pregnant.

After looking again at those pictures of her leg break, I actually agree with DD here too. I don't think you should risk breeding Alaska at all. I mean it's such an awful break, how will you know if she has a weak spot on that leg until it's too late?


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> More than you do it would appear!
> 
> You're not prepared to take the small risk of pyometra if using the mismate, but you are happy to take the much greater risk of pregnancy!
> 
> I think it's pretty clear.


Small risk with pyometra?!?! There are no 100% signs what if she has close pyometra she could show no signs and within even a few days die without a sign, even if she is spayed. At least with pregnancy there are some obvious signs and not just one or two there are loads. There are alot more preconditions we can take and we are going to keep looking for the signs everyday as a just in case!

She will even be going for another scan!

Does this look like a dog whose leg will snap when pregnant.... I think not!

YouTube - Alaska Playing - Just dance Lady Gaga


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Im out of here. You havent a clue what your talking about (sadly for your dogs sake).
You want to breed, and nothing will stop you .. clearly .. well I suggest you dont post around forum like the 'ethical new breeders' that you claim to be yet are far from. The things I have read to night are disgusting. Like I said before, anyone still supporting you needs to take a hard look at them selves.

Im off to bed, you have both have wasted enough of my time and everyone elses - I wouldnt even bother trying to reply if I were them, seems you lack basic communication skills.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Small risk with pyometra?!?! There are no 100% signs what if she has close pyometra she could show no signs and within even a few days die without a sign, even if she is spayed. At least with pregnancy there are some obvious signs and not just one or two there are loads. There are alot more preconditions we can take and we are going to keep looking for the signs everyday as a just in case!


Good grief  the words 'head' and 'brick wall' spring to mind 

Are you for real? It's your dogs I feel sorry for, but it's your choice


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Im out of here. You havent a clue what your talking about (sadly for your dogs sake).
> You want to breed, and nothing will stop you .. clearly .. well I suggest you dont post around forum like the 'ethical new breeders' that you claim to be yet are far from. The things I have read to night are disgusting. Like I said before, anyone still supporting you needs to take a hard look at them selves.
> 
> Im off to bed, you have both have wasted enough of my time and everyone elses.


Says you, you have waisted our time for days giving us unhelpful and down right rude advice and posts. We have as again i must say as you don't listen FFS! that if we feel alaska is not right to breed we won't but i mean thats not for another year or so yet, so you telling us not to breed her right now do you know what will happen in the future NO! so stop saying these pointless repeated statements that _we want to breed and nothing will stop us_.

Yes we want to breed but thing might stop us just not closed minded "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" im right and if its not my views your wrong posts are not going to stop us.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Good grief  the words 'head' and 'brick wall' spring to mind
> 
> Are you for real? It's your dogs I feel sorry for, but it's your choice


Well like i keep saying give us proof about us being wrong then i will entertain your advice on the mismate and pyometra but yet again another unhelpful post of blah blah blah your not listening so your wrong.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

You don't realise how silly you sound anyway really am going bed now. Some of us need to get to bed so we can get up in the morning for work. We don't all just live off benefits.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> You don't realise how silly you sound anyway really am going bed now. Some of us need to get to bed so we can get up in the morning for work. We don't all just live off benefits.


Do i well give me reasons why i am silly again no backing up lol

Yes well i will gladly trade you my illness that i have suffered with my whole life for your ability to go to work :thumbup: i mean living on benefits is soo hard pinching every penny and the stupid way they pay you! I'd love to have a job where i get paid all at once then i can just pay my bills not worry if they have screwed up and not paid us!

Im surprised you have a job with that attitude unless you need to be like that for your job lol.


----------



## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I have backed up everything I have said. Read your posts then you will see how silly you look. I work with animals people like you are great examples as to why. Night.


----------



## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I have backed up everything I have said. Read your posts then you will see how silly you look. I work with animals people like you are great examples as to why. Night.


People like you are the reason that dogs go untreated as they are too afraid to ask for advice on there dogs.

Do you work in a slaughter house as that cut throat attitude wouldn't work anywhere else!


----------



## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

this has now gone way off topic and will be closed and moderated shortly. Scan has proved that the bitch is not in whelp - end of story that is the topic of conversation Scan.....do we wait? Or not?

This has now been answered and the thread has now gone away from the above


----------

