# Any need for verbal corrections?



## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Was reading another thread and this came to mind and wondered what people thought?

I have never used any old school physical aversives in my training as it had never felt right, even before I knew all the stuff I know now, but I did used to use verbal corrections (like 'ah ah' and 'no')...however, with maggie I started using clicker training and really all her training has been through positive reinforcement - the only 'punishment' as such that she would have received would be when we withdraw attention when she was i.e. jumping up...

When I first started with pos-R training I thought it was a bit silly that people said to praise the good and ignore all the bad (but obviously teach the alternatiive), as I thought, well surely you would want to say 'no' when they were doing something wrong...

However, the more I read about the way dogs learn, the more I realise that if I have the time and knowledge to put in the correct training, then there is not really any need for verbal corrections even...

These days I try not to use any verbal corrections regularly, as it doesn't really teach them anything, as they still do the same things as they have not learnt it is wrong to do so, just wrong to do it in front of us...I always knew this for toilet training but hadnt really attributed it to anything else I was training (like leaving the cats alone or stopping barking etc)!

I still use 'ah' occasionally, normally when I am not paying attention properly and it just comes out my mouth before I have thought about it...

This recent video from kikopup on YouTube also talks about how to use a positive interrupter instead of 'no' or 'ah ah':

YouTube - How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training

What do you think?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

All the training I have down so far has been positivie but I must admit that I am the same when it comes to the cats & barking. Toby tends to give the odd growl when the cats walk past & he has his chew stick. I've said NO loudly when he does this - he has got much better but that's probably due to him realising that they are not going to steal it & very little to do with my intervention.
I was reading another post about barking when someone was at the door & using diversions/distrations rather than scolding & this has worked much better.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

I love clicker it's what I used to train people to use on their dogs and I use it for most of my own pack. That said sometimes a good old fashioned loud sharp NO can do wanders and believe me with my lot and some of the badly behaved nutcases who come to visit at times I need my voice!! I have no problem using it but obviously sometimes I have to moderate how and if I use my voice because it can adversly effect nervous or less confident dogs. If my pack kick off in the back of the van it just takes a good 'HEY' and they quieten, clicker has massive advantages and I'll always promote it but in those circumstances nothing beats voice control to stop the racket!!

I have also clicker trained my horse to great effect but sometimes he also needs a loud OY MATE which because used rarely has the effect wanted...choice between half a tonne of mad horse in my space or him crushing me means if my voice is needed then by god I'll use it!!:lol:


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

JSR said:


> I have also clicker trained my horse to great effect but sometimes he also needs a loud OY MATE which because used rarely has the effect wanted...choice between half a tonne of mad horse in my space or him crushing me means if my voice is needed then by god I'll use it!!:lol:


lol!!!!


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I am having problems with Heidi and teenage phase at the mo I(have started a thread to ask for advice)and this has restored my faith.:thumbup:
Without realising, I have started trying to stop the bad and thro that become more vocal and intense. I am sat here watching and thinking, realising the problems I have caused myself. Before reading this, while watching her half asleep on her bed, one eye open guarding her garden I decided I would move her bed out of eyeshot. Blimey I cant believe I have lost the plot so much!
How ashamed do I feel


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I am having problems with Heidi and teenage phase at the mo I(have started a thread to ask for advice)and this has restored my faith.:thumbup:
> Without realising, I have started trying to stop the bad and thro that become more vocal and intense. I am sat here watching and thinking, realising the problems I have caused myself. Before reading this, while watching her half asleep on her bed, one eye open guarding her garden I decided I would move her bed out of eyeshot. Blimey I cant believe I have lost the plot so much!
> How ashamed do I feel


I just added this video in reply to your other thread! 

Don't feel bad, we all have those times when we know its not right but can't work out what to do!! That's what we are all here for


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Cheers, I think we are playing tag - have just replied to the other thread too :lol:
Feeling much happier now and gained a second wind to face the next onslaught.
Really dont know what I would do without you guys.


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## London Dogwalker (Oct 27, 2009)

I think it depends on what the behaviour is, for the things that she mentions at the beginning of the video that go on when you're not there then I agree that punishment/stopping them doing it is totally useless, if they want to do something they will!

However, the use of interruptors is very useful, and I don't have a problem with the use of 'ah' whatsoever, or the word leave. It doesn't mean they necessarily see it as punishment.

She's just using classical conditioning to build positive associations. It's a technique I've used in training my own dog but with a 'puck puck' noise. 

I shouted at my dog yesterday morning for kicking me in the face as she sprawled out on my boyfriend's pillow. :lol:


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Yeah I always use leave as well. Maggie's leave is really good as we did loads of work on it when she was young cos she wouldnt leave the blimin cats alone!


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

I see no problem with using interruptions of verbal corrections and I use them, but these are my rules for myself:
- It has to be just an 'oy, don't do that' signal, I can't use it to startle or intimidate (like rattle cans or yelling). It must be communication, not an aversive. If I find myself repeating or raising my voice, I need to find another way to deal with the situation. 
- I should always offer an acceptable alternate behaviour


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Excellent thread and an issue that I am constantly working on and thinking about.

It brings up the issue of the use of aversives, punishers, interrupters and reprimands.

Let's just get technical first and be clear what all these different things are in relation to b. mod and dogs.

Aversives - anything an animal will work to avoid - these include but are not limited to all of the things that life throws at us e.g. stubbing a toe, it raining, alarm going off on Monday morning etc. These are aversive as they are unpleasant but have nothing to do with learning as they are not contingent upon behaviour.


Punishers - anything that decreases the frequency of a behaviour. Be clear here that all punishers are aversive but as stated above not all aversives are punishers. This is an individual thing and you cannot blankly state that something is a punisher before you have looked back and observed a reduction in behaviour.
On that note a mention here for negative reinforcement which the removal of an aversive in order to increase a behaviour e.g. the collar zap stops when the dog sits, the choke chain slackens when the dog walks on a loose leash (just examples NOT recomendations)


Interupters - SHOULD stop the dog in his tracks so that he be redirected. More often than not these are too avsersive and cause all behaviour to cease (so the user is reinforced as they appear to work) but the behaviour is simply surpressed.

Reprimands - interrupters to let the dog know they have carried out the wrong behaviour.


If you are using any of these as a first choice on a repeated basis there is an issue IMO. 
1. Management is not sufficient
2. It is very easy to reach for these once you have introduced them to your tool box. The use of aversives is reinforcing for the user as conditions are 'unsafe' for the dog and he stops all behaviour so VOILA it must work - not!

Management first - stop the dog practicing the behaviour
Heavily proofed interruption behaviour e.g. sit - must be proofed so well that it can be used to stop the dog carrying out rewarding behaviours taht you want him to stop therefore lots and lots and lots of R+ and Premacking to get to a point where it is really useful.

While managing and interrupting teach an alternative behaviour which an instructional reprimand does for you.
Teaching a sit (or my dog has a freeze behaviour - wait) not only can be used to interrupt but also as an alternative behaviour (think of the all the naughty things he can't do if he's sitting  ) 

Instead of loud booming or sudden sharp sounds teach the dog an interrupter that stops him in his tracks and fills the behaviour vacuum caused by aversives so that you get results.

To use aversives so they are actually contingent on bheaviour they must be well timed and severe (again fact not recmmendation) and consistent - we are not good at this. To fail at this causes fall out.

Keep it positive because classical conditioning is waaaaaay more powerful than operant learning. I.e. we effect the dog's emotional attitude to a situation using aversives very quickly and easily even if we manage to change the behaivour using aversives. This is the most important reason to choose R+


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

I guess, the only ones i use are "ah ah" it usually does the trick, if the boys playing esculates i step in by clapping my hands together to get their attension then give a come command, a sit etc, I dont want to physically part them..
The rest of the training i tend to do is positive reinforcement, I prefer teaching them what to do, rather than the negative usuage which tells them what not to do, if that makes sense.
By repitition of the positives i find i dont physically handle them, but coerce then into doing things my way haha, so like on a walk if i stop to talk, they are so used to sotiing, the do so automaitically rather than screeching "SIT" haha.
It made sense to me, hope it did in writing
Forgot to add i also like going on a walk and not giving any verbal clues, so they have to read my body language, but still reward them when they get it right, its quite fun to do to
xx


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I think its important to have a verbal correction. At the end of the day if Rupert suddenly gets into a situation he shouldn't, I know he will hesitate if he hears a noise of some kind.

For people like me with dogs who like to run off after any sign of wildlife, something is IMO def needed to be able to get his attention when he has turned tail and run off in the opposite direction 

As an example, I click my fingers to get his attention/let him know I am going to give him a command if he isn't paying attention, but at a distance if he has turned tail etc he isn't paying enough attention to listen to the regular click, so I will say 'Oi!' and he hesitates to wonder what it was/what I want etc most of the time. I think some dogs when hearing the same things over and over get so used to hearing the same thing they don't always bother.

Another example, teaching Roo to walk on the slip lead to heel. If i ignore the bad, ie. the pullling, he would just continually walk in front, he never did drop back, so I would tell him to get back to my side or flick him, then praise. I understand ignoring the 'bad' in some instances, because sometimes they can do things for attention, but when its something that matters like eating something they shouldn't, you can't really ignore that, which is why I like to know he can/will pay attention verbally.

With Rupert he is normally pushing his luck and knows damn well what he is meant to be doing, just isn't doing it  so it isn't really used as a teaching aid. When training it is possible to ignore the bad, but in day to day life its rather different, I think? 

To me 'Oi' is basically a what are you doing and why are you over there, I don't see anything wrong with it really *feels like she is missing something*


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Tinsley said:


> When training it is possible to ignore the bad, but in day to day life its rather different, I think?
> 
> To me 'Oi' is basically a what are you doing and why are you over there, I don't see anything wrong with it really *feels like she is missing something*


 hey, tinsley! :--) 
did U watch the video? *kikopup* explained pretty well in the 1st-minute why its a good idea to have a HAPPY interruptor, 
that means, _*Yoo-Hoo! over here... *_ (waving + smiling...)

if the dog is doing (bad thing) and we say, *cut that out!*, it may work - 
depending upon how massively rewarding the behavior itself is, like chasing a cat or a squirrel. 
*but it does not tell the dog what To DO, Instead. * the positive-interruptor tells the dog what To Do (pay attn to us), 
AND it has a long, solid history of being rewarded. U don;t just pick something + use it one day, when the dog *does* X... 
U pick that signal, *practice teaching + using it,* and have it *ready* to deploy before U need it.

of course...  
all this requires a certain amount of planning :lol: and Training :lol: and in the USA, only *One Dog in Ten* gets ANY training. 
:shocked: yes, i did not get a decimal wrong, it is 10% of the 100% of owned, pet-dogs, who get ANY training. 
incredible as that seems. :blink:

defining - 
* aversives (unpleasant things we prefer to avoid) 
* punishers (aversives that reduce a behavior - things we work to avoid) 
* interruptors (startle effect) 
* reprimands (interruptors that inform the actor that is NOT desired-behavior) 
is important - we need to know what we are doing, and what to call it. [thank U, *tripod!  ]



tripod said:


> *bold* added -
> 
> If you are using any of these as a first choice on a repeated basis there is an issue IMO.
> 1. Management is not sufficient
> ...


 i had an interesting (but depressing) conversation some months back, with a bus-driver - 
she explained that punishment is absolutely needed, that teaching and rewarding cannot be IT. 
her example was her elder-brother - 
their father had never spared the rod in raising his children, and her brother said he would not do something - 
he was 18-YO at the time; she was 6-YO but said she *knew right away that was wrong*. their father looked at his son, 
as tall as he and in better shape, and said, *U know what i have to do?* her brother said, Yes. 
and stood there... *and his father punched him, so hard he knocked him out cold.* laid all six-feet of him out on the floor.

my Q to the driver? *if PUNISHMENT worked so well, how come he is punching his son at 18-YO?* 
she didn;t get it. (shrug) i tried again - *if it worked, and hes been punishing this boy all his life - 
When does punishment STOP?* she still didn;t get it; i gave up. :nonod: my point? 
*if U do it over, + over, + over... and U STILL gotta do it!... 
then face it, honey, it aint working. :huh: its past-time to re-think Ur strategy. *

the part pet-dog-owners really seem to *hate* is when i tell them they cannot allow the dog to keep *doing* X... 
dog-owners seem to collectively despise management + control. :confused1: which is strange, 
but so far as i can tell, true. i LIKE management-tools... like long-lines for dogs who do not yet KNOW a solid recall - 
the dog still gets to have fun, i do not worry about the dog taking-off to the blue yonder, and we can practice some recalls... 
whats not to like? :thumbup1: 
*but he shouldn;t run away like that... he should COME to me, when i call him! :mad5: * 
why, when the last time he DID come when called, U yelled at him for taking too long? :blink: the dog isn;t stoopid... 
why should he rush over to get chewed-out? thats what he expects. and U taught him to expect it. 
(one of those really-distasteful truths, ouch.)

i *do* sometimes use a No-Reward-Marker, but only with dogs who are savvy, and will not be discouraged by that; 
some dogs are very easily-quashed, and that NRM that means nothing terrible to *me*, could shut them right down. 
*the impact of what i do as a trainer is not determined by my intent, but by the learner - my student. * 
just like cooking, where U are only as good as that most-recent meal, *when training, i am only as good as my last lesson.*

i always try to keep in mind that if i am training correctly, it gets easier + easier; if i am training badly, not thinking, 
not reading the dog, training gets harder + harder - and if i keep it up, it becomes virtually impossible. 
training mindfully saves a lotta time, effort, and heartache. :thumbup: having trained by rote + dug myself into a hole, 
 i know just how hard U sweat to get back out of it. 
if negatives start creeping into the everyday, i know its time for some tune-ups. 

BTW, *katie - loved the video, good simple clear training - 
excellent for humans. :thumbup:  humans are harder...  
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> Keep it positive...* classical conditioning is waaaaaay more powerful than operant learning.*
> I.e. we effect the dog's emotional attitude to a situation using aversives very quickly and easily *even if we manage to change the behaviour using aversives.* This is the most important reason to choose R+


yes, U can win the battle, and lose the war... 
if U make the whole concept of training so unhappy + conflicted, the student (dog, horse, child, adult...) 
will hate the very setting - the classroom, the tools (leash, book, bridle, EVERYthing) becomes tainted.

such poisoned-cues are sadly common - *Come!* being the single most common example. :confused1: 
we call the dog from play with others, we call the dog to bung him in a crate, we call the dog away from the bird she;s hunting, 
we call the dog for a BATH or a CLAW-trim, we call the dogs from the garden to lock them in the house... 
none of these are bad-things, they may be NEEDFUL things... but each one is a bad-lesson. 
they teach the dog that *Come!* means run like H*** the other way, the fun is about to be ended.

Skinner on one shoulder, Pavlov on the other... and Pavlov is more-potent.  
all my best, 
--- terry


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Why was he still 'punishing' his son? Cos it's not a punisher as it has not reduced the behaviour...I know that's your point but just clarifying.
It is just an aversive, obviously not contingent on behaviour so therefore not reducing behaviour its abuse IMO.

'Corrections' suggests that people want to change their dog's, child's behaviour - therefore be careful - if its not working (i.e. you are continually using it) then it 'aint working, try something else...

Using a 'oi' or 'ah-ah' is fine but it isn't good teaching - it might surpress behaviour but it prob won't have an effect on future behaviour. Of course there are situations where you have to stop behaviour quickly but this situaiton should be tidied up from there on in.
E.g. a child's hand might be grabbed back by a parent as the child goes to stick something into a socket but from there on in a cover should be put in that socket - you can't rely on that 'correction' to have an effect on future behaviour. Manage the situation until the child/dog has enough experience/teaching/learning behind him to avoid such dangerous behaviour.

Managment, alternative behaviour plus positive interrupter - training is the answer. Before employing 'corrections' think what would you prefer the dog to *do*? Now teach that with R+ without having to resort to anything aversive and surpressive.

Murray Sidman's Coercion and its Fallout is an excellent book in relation to this topic. Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog is also very useful here too. Kellie Snider has a couple of excellent articles on clickerlogic very relevant too, especially here and here.
Dee Ganley also writes extensively about ways of avoiding aversives unless absolutley necessary - but then I guess that's the line we all have to define. For me I work to eliminate all aversives from my training and living with dogs - life throws enough aversives at us as it is without me adding more


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, tinsley! :--)
> did U watch the video? *kikopup* explained pretty well in the 1st-minute why its a good idea to have a HAPPY interruptor,
> that means, _*Yoo-Hoo! over here... *_ (waving + smiling...)
> 
> ...


No I haven't seen it. I don't mean use it as a punishment, I mean to catch their attention. Just like today at gundog training, we were working on getting Roo to come to me and not wander off when he had a dummy. When I was being nicey nice 'Rupey here, come here' etc when he turned his back, he just didn't care. Instead it was a 'Rupey here' and when/if he turned his bak my tone changed and he got a 'No, come here!' and whenever that was said, he hesitated, turned to look at me which was when the 'good boy come here then' continues.

But for him if he hears anything positive he just thinks everything is OK and will carry on with whatever he is doing. For him I need to use a bit of a stern interupter (sp?) else he thinks everything is fine, and after that when he knows something is up I can redirect him. When its something like asking for a sit when I'm stood still and he is onlead, there is no point saying 'ah ah' or anything, I wouldn't, he gets told to sit etc, but offlead with a dummy or offlead in general if I talk happy etc he thinks everything is OK, if you know what I mean?

I need interupters to tell him he needs to pay attention and stop messing about, to be honest I don't understand this topic very well and don't have too much time to read it, I've got a bit much coursework, really sorry if I make no sense whatsoever..!

I agree with the using ah ah as a correction not solving the behaviour too, but literally with my boy, you have to have a distinct 'this means everything is good' and 'this means something is wrong'. He will no doubt get better the more training we put in etc, but he doesn't take me half as seriously unless I get a bit stern and *then* redirect him with what is the correct thing to do, he knows something is up as he hesitates, so I think it makes sense?


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Your dog must lovel love love his gundog work are you just doing it for fun or do you shoot or trial?

I never have to use threatening tones or intimidation - if 'positive' tones are not working there is no value in them (to the dog) - he has to be intimidated into behaving. What happens when intimidation no longer works?

Wouldn't it be nicer to have the dog respond cos he wants to? My emergency recall cue is a high pitched, very girly (!) Roo-oof! That is a turn on a dime get back here NOW cue. But that has taken lots and lots and lots and lots of repeating with results for responding. I actually have a rock solid 'wait' cue on my dog and as a result his recall has always been secondary to that but it is fast becoming our best proofed cue.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

tripod said:


> Your dog must lovel love love his gundog work are you just doing it for fun or do you shoot or trial?
> 
> I never have to use threatening tones or intimidation - if 'positive' tones are not working there is no value in them (to the dog) - he has to be intimidated into behaving. What happens when intimidation no longer works?
> 
> Wouldn't it be nicer to have the dog respond cos he wants to? My emergency recall cue is a high pitched, very girly (!) Roo-oof! That is a turn on a dime get back here NOW cue. But that has taken lots and lots and lots and lots of repeating with results for responding. I actually have a rock solid 'wait' cue on my dog and as a result his recall has always been secondary to that but it is fast becoming our best proofed cue.


He's only been a couple times, we will see how it goes as to what we do, but its just a fun few hours out at the minute!

I don't feel as though I do intimidate Roo, nor does the chap we are with. Its a matter of using a different tone of voice, it can be any tone whatsoever, just different to what you have been using. I don't growl at him to get his butt over here now etc, its literally a different tone from the happy one so that he listens to what I ask. I find that if I talk on the same kind of tone level, he sort of quits listening to me.

I'm also in the process of talking to him less on walks etc when I need him to be paying attention, we think that's why he kind of stops listening to my normal tone of voice, because he hears it so much and almost constantly, that he has learnt that only 10% of that time am I actually asking him to do something, hence why he isn't overly responsive :blushing:

But to be fair, I don't know what else you can do if a dog turns its back on you and runs away, if happily shouting 'come here ____' doesn't work, I just say it more in a talking tone of voice than a calling one, if you know what I mean!? Its not as high and he pays more attention to me as that's not the voice I whitter on at him with  He tends to stop/hesitate when my voice tone changes, and then its immediate praise/call tone.

I literally use it because I think he turns his ears off a lot of the time because I used to constantly talk, he has never been hurt or punished in terms of not coming back, and so I wouldn't have thought he could associate it with being intimidated or threatened, as nothing bad has ever happened from it..?

The intention is for him to come to the call tone all the time eventually, but at the minute he doesn't really respond to it at all, whereas he does respond more to a lower tone. I don't know if its because it doesn't sound as clear, or because I used to constantly natter to him, but he is responding incredibly well in the gun dog sessions whereas I had no success with other methods such as clicker when he was younger.

Sorry for the ramble, I don't explain things very well!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I get what ya mean!!

Ok this might sound offensive but its not meant to be at all, just sort of illustrating a point.

If you are not interesting enough for the dog to pay attention to then that's the issue not tone of voice or talking to him or whatever. If he is disracted you are not as interesting as those distractors and let's face it the sorts of things that are distracting e.g. other dog's bums, pee and poo (!) are certainly tempting!
So you have to be more interesting than other dog's bums and pee and poo 

There are a couple of ways of working on this :
1) find something that is more interesting e.g. better treats, toys, running around etc.
and/or
2) show him that the opportunity to look/smell/or go to distractors comes through you ONLY (Premack it!)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> *Murray Sidman's Coercion and its Fallout is an excellent book in relation to this topic.* Karen Pryor (Don't Shoot the Dog) is also very useful... *Kellie Snider* has a couple of excellent articles on clickerlogic very relevant too, especially... [snip]...
> *Dee Ganley* also writes extensively about ways of avoiding aversives unless absolutely necessary...


darn it, i keep *forgetting* _*sidman*_. 
 once or twice a year, someone mentions this book, and i vow to read it :lol: poor fella, he;s gonna get a complex. 
i;ve read KP/Don;t Shoot... and lads before the wind too - both very good, i love the anecdotes as well as the useful info. 
plus of course, many articles on the Karen Pryor Clickertraining site. 


> For me I work to eliminate all aversives from my training and living with dogs - *life throws enough aversives... without me adding more *


 boy, i hear that one,  i am running short on life-rewards, these days. 
thanks for the reminder about *sidman*, i am off to the library this PM, and the links! 
i have so much reading to do... (i love it ) 
--- terry


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

tripod said:


> I get what ya mean!!
> 
> Ok this might sound offensive but its not meant to be at all, just sort of illustrating a point.
> 
> ...


:lol: don't worry, I know what you mean too! This is it, because I have always been a bit of an over fusser/talker etc and so Roo never is as interested, so I'm trying to get him to appreciate fuss more by giving it out on walks only when he does something good, and this is why I now carry a dummy or toy out on walks too!

Can I ask what you would do if a dog (not necessarily yours so wont respond) starts to chase a hare, and doesn't listen when you ask them to come? With Roo I tried the walking away/hiding so he kept a closer eye on me in future or didn't stray to far, as well as the ignoring and then praising when he did come back, and things just got progressively worse.

This is why we now work on the initial prevention of him going, I figure its better to do anything that will get his attention, than run off and me potentially lose him/him find a road with lots of cars or something (this is why he isn't offlead at home at the min, the road thing!) but if a dog did go off and didn't listen when you asked it to come back, what would you do?

In an ideal world we could train them from the off and they would all respond all the time. Another one (these are just because I'm curious, not to pick fault as I really have very little idea, hence the q's!), if your dog came up and put their face on your knee because they wanted to get on the sofa and have a cuddle, and you told them to go away but they didn't, what would you do then?


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Tinsley said:


> :lol: don't worry, I know what you mean too! This is it, because I have always been a bit of an over fusser/talker etc and so Roo never is as interested, so I'm trying to get him to appreciate fuss more by giving it out on walks only when he does something good, and this is why I now carry a dummy or toy out on walks too!


Ignoring the other participant in a relationship does not improve the relationship. Teach him that access to good things comes ONLY through you - that is the essence of dog-owner relationship (obviously more to than that but that is the starter!)



> Can I ask what you would do if a dog (not necessarily yours so wont respond) starts to chase a hare, and doesn't listen when you ask them to come? With Roo I tried the walking away/hiding so he kept a closer eye on me in future or didn't stray to far, as well as the ignoring and then praising when he did come back, and things just got progressively worse.
> 
> This is why we now work on the initial prevention of him going, I figure its better to do anything that will get his attention, than run off and me potentially lose him/him find a road with lots of cars or something (this is why he isn't offlead at home at the min, the road thing!) but if a dog did go off and didn't listen when you asked it to come back, what would you do?


First off, prevent him running off - he goes on a long line if there is a risk. There are not many dogs, particularly of sporting type, that can ignore a hare!!
If management fails, as it is likely to do, I would catch him asap and then just put him back on leash and walk away.
But I would work very very very hard to establish a solid 'wait' or 'drop' cue. That can take months if not years of work. It took about two years to get my fella's wait cue solid so that he will freeze mid-squirrel-chase.

'Wait' is my version of an interruptor/instructional reprimand. It means stop what you are doing and do this instead (freeze). I don't have to ask him to turn away from the squirrel cos that prob wouldn't work. He just has to freeze and wait for my next idea.
When working on this, as with any new behaviour, start in the easiest situation and GRADUALLY make it more difficult.
I do this at least 10 times on every walk. And after each 'wait' he is released to continue having fun. But, if I have to use it to end his fun e.g. to stop him running over to another dog, I then make sure to do another 10 minimum where he is released to have fun. I need it to stay a positive thing - otherwise I train him to not do it 



> In an ideal world we could train them from the off and they would all respond all the time. Another one (these are just because I'm curious, not to pick fault as I really have very little idea, hence the q's!), if your dog came up and put their face on your knee because they wanted to get on the sofa and have a cuddle, and you told them to go away but they didn't, what would you do then


In that specific situation, I would probably stand up - this uses negative punishment, withdrawal of reward. Not my fave at all. Again ask what would you prefer the dog to do? Does he sit on cue, does he down on cue, does he go get a ball on cue, go lie on a mat on cue??? These are behaviours that I might prefer in this ones place. If not teach him to do these things.

Make sure that in its place to put something reward-able. Teach a go to mat cue - prob one of the most useful in-house exercise, to settle. Make it super rewarding so its not a telling off - just giving him another behaviour to do.
I might also teach an alternate way of asking to come up for a cuddle such as a sit, a down or some trick. Up on the sofa for performing this behaviour rather than the other one that I am not crazy about.

If you ask the dog to stop doing some behaviour make sure to have another behaviour to fill the gap - otherwise the dog will fill it with a behaviour we might not like!

Ask away - love working on these puzzles & solutions


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## healpro (Mar 11, 2009)

katiefranke said:


> Was reading another thread and this came to mind and wondered what people thought?
> 
> I have never used any old school physical aversives in my training as it had never felt right, even before I knew all the stuff I know now, but I did used to use verbal corrections (like 'ah ah' and 'no')...however, with maggie I started using clicker training and really all her training has been through positive reinforcement - the only 'punishment' as such that she would have received would be when we withdraw attention when she was i.e. jumping up...
> 
> ...


Just watched it, think it is brill, will start teaching Finn this tomorrow. I have been concerned that due to constantly saying his name at puppy class, he is becoming conditioned to IGNORING his name on the occasions I most need his attention.Have already taught him 'watch me' so will combine it with this


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## Gregory50 (Jan 18, 2010)

This is positive training gone mad imo. We can't even tell our dogs "no" now, wtf? Is this this real?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Gregory50 said:


> This is positive training gone mad imo. We can't even tell our dogs "no" now, wtf? Is this this real?


From what I can tell its simply a more positive sound/recognition noise made to interrupt, but to be honest I don't think my dog associates the word no or my normal voice tone (compared with a call tone) as intimidation as such because nothing bad ever comes from it and its not a particularly harsh tone, its more my speaking voice than a call tone which is what he doesn't come to.

My dog is happy anyway, and I'm happy with how he's getting on, find it quite hard to get my head around some of these things they are quite complex. Whatever works for each person I guess


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I use ahah and sometimes a growled stop it is the only thing that stops him barking at say a motorbike he hates them. I think it's madness too that you can't tell a dog to stop doing something and I'm all for clicker training and positive reinforcement


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Gregory50 said:


> This is positive training gone mad imo. We can't even tell our dogs "no" now, wtf? Is this this real?


You can tell your dog whatever you want.

This isn't about positive training or aligning oneself to a particular philosophy - its about developing the best way to teach whether that be canine, human, feline, equine etc.etc.etc.

Whether the dog sits on cue or not in a given situation is not the only consideration - there are so many things that can be affected when teaching using particular tools. This discussion is looking at the most efficient use of particular tools.

Please don't make this out to be about positive training or stopping people using 'no'. My choices are based on more than popular opinion or training philosophy


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I think it's madness too that you can't tell a dog to stop doing something...


hey, nicky! :--) 
but U are *stopping* the behavior - just in a different way, thats all.  
the method is a bit altered - but U still interrupt an un-wanted behavior + re-direct to a preferred behavior.

:huh: does that make sense? (hope so... ) 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I suppose but some trainers will say any kind of correction telling the dog to get off the sofa etc is a bad thing . The only thing to do when he starts really barking is to stop him by growling stop it at him even waving cheese in front of him doesn't work


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> *bold* + underline added -
> 
> * The only thing [that works] when he starts really barking is to stop him by growling stop it at him - *
> even waving cheese in front of him doesn't work.


hey, nicky! :--) 
where is he, usually, when he is REALLY barking?

what trips him off?

i think i can offer a B-Mod... give me some idea of what happens, before + during the barking-mania. 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I suppose but some trainers will say any kind of correction telling the dog to get off the sofa etc is a bad thing .


But if there is a better way, that is more efficient and less likely to be associated with fallout why not go for that?
If we put a dog in a situation that we know we have not prepared him for is it therefore fair to 'correct' him for it?
Just because the human world is based on the use of aversives and punishers does that mean that that should be the way I relate to my pets/family?
Nobody is saying you must do this or you can't do that - what's so wrong with working toward eliminating aversives that I control? Why wouldn't that be something worth doing?

JUst because things are the way its always been done, does that make it right? I don't believe so - the more we learn and understand about teaching the more we can improve our methods and the better our students become.

I apologise if any of this or what I have written comes off preachy or self-righteous, that is not the intention. But, I feel that as we are responsible for our dogs and what they learn so we have to be the very best teachers. This feeling is not based on anything other than solid, empiricle evidence - carrot is more effective as a teaching tool than stick


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tripod said:


> But I would work very very very hard to establish a solid 'wait' or 'drop' cue. That can take months if not years of work. It took about two years to get my fella's wait cue solid so that he will freeze mid-squirrel-chase.


Months if not years is about right - the dog finds chasing immensely rewarding and gets a huuuuuuuuge burst of adrenalin, so it is a self-rewarding behaviour.

So best of all, manage it so he doesn't get the chance to chase _at all_ - it will only take one more chase for the behaviour to start up again and your STOP training will go back to square one!

Chase addiction is a behaviour that results in self-reward, and a boost of great feel-good body chemicals - no wonder shouts of "Come here!" and bribes of liver or cheese don't work, nothing can compete with the body's own reward system. or even the promise of its own reward....? If you were feeling sexually aroused, would a cup of tea really do anything to calm you down....? lol

I manage Merlin's chase addiction as much as I can, as I know that even with a fairly good recall (improving) some things just can't compete.

Example: We were out on a long country walk today and part of our public footpath trail took us on a narrow farm lane leading back to the main road. I looked back and saw the Milk tanker which obviously just came to collect the milk from the dairy farm was rumbling up towards us. Merlin on the lead and we stood on the narrow grass verge as the tanker passed slowly, groaning up the steep hill.

Driver waved thanks as he passed, I waved back in acknowledgement. I let the tanker go quite some distance up the hill before letting Merlin off lead again and guess what - 
WHOOOOMPH!!!!!!!! 
Like a greyhound out of the trap he was off! Kicking up dust, hot on the heels of the tanker. I guess the driver must have seen him in his rear view mirror and must have been either laughing or cacking himself.... Probably the former as many MANY farm dogs do the same!

After maybe 100 metres Merlin did come back, he just needed that amazing adrenaline rush that comes from the chase. But it does show you they never forget it, and no amount of training can ever really compete - at times - with the buzz of basically doing what he was bred to do - and that is run after moving things! (even if he can't eventually round 'em up and put 'em in a pen).


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, nicky! :--)
> where is he, usually, when he is REALLY barking?
> 
> what trips him off?
> ...


It's generally in the garden if someone decides to drive up our street on a bike or in a car. It doesn't happen enough for me to only take him out onlead or whatever. It's not a road or anything but people sometimes drive their bikes up or park their cars on it even though it's meant to only be for pedestrians


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

tripod said:


> But if there is a better way, that is more efficient and less likely to be associated with fallout why not go for that?
> If we put a dog in a situation that we know we have not prepared him for is it therefore fair to 'correct' him for it?
> Just because the human world is based on the use of aversives and punishers does that mean that that should be the way I relate to my pets/family?
> Nobody is saying you must do this or you can't do that - what's so wrong with working toward eliminating aversives that I control? Why wouldn't that be something worth doing?
> ...


Nothing wrong with it and I agree carrot is infinately better than a stick but still sometimes an aversive is necessary and as long as you're not hurting the dog, I doubt ah ah really breaks his spirit when he's trying to get the food off the table then there's nothing wrong with it. Choking him when he did it on the other hand I would never do it


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Nothing wrong with it and I agree carrot is infinately better than a stick but still sometimes an aversive is necessary and as long as you're not hurting the dog, I doubt ah ah really breaks his spirit when he's trying to get the food off the table then there's nothing wrong with it. Choking him when he did it on the other hand I would never do it


Oh yeah chasm of difference!

I read a Dee Ganley article several years ago that really struck me cos I would have, even since crossing over, used verbal ah-ahs etc. and this article made me stop short and look at another way.
Once you have aversives in your toolbox, mild or severe, it becomes easier and easier to reach for them again and again.
As mild as it seems I just want to find another way where possible.

Will the day come when I work with a dog or a situation that aversives may be applicable - yes, no doubt. But as of right now after over ten years of R+ training work and studying this area I have not had to do it. I don't want to reach for them just yet.

I do use interrupters and instructive reprimands but I try not to leave a vacuum - but always always always the question guiding my actions is 'what would I prefer the dog do?' If I can work a situation with R+ first rather than any other quadrant I will do that.

I want to stop unwanted behaviour - I don't want to have to re-visit a situation time and time again. I want efficiency without fallout. If I can do that without aversives I will - it might take a little more work and a little more thinking (on my part).

This is a great discussion btw - love to get others' views and trash this topic about


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think some positive trainers may have taken it too far you correct the dog at all or tell them not to do something you're almost as bad as someone using a shock collar to train. You need to tell a dog that you don't want that behaviour and then show them what you want.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tripod said:


> Once you have aversives in your toolbox, mild or severe, it becomes easier and easier to reach for them again and again.


I think it may be harder to train owners *not* to build a toolbox, than it is to train the dog!

When Merly set off in pursuit of the milk tanker today - I admit he hesitated at first so if I'd had just a little more training or a little more on my side, he may have changed his mind. Great!

Now another owner might have been horrified and reached for an aversive straight away - Spray collar or something? No not me. It may have given the tanker driver a few nervous moments - or it might have given him a laugh.
It's unlikely to happen again.

It didn't give *me* enough worry to reach for anything aversive. But that's because *I* have been trained - by my dog, by my conscience, and by reading, learning and inwardly digesting over the last 4 years.

And yes I could see he'd never catch up with the tanker, there was no real danger of death or injury, so although it was unwanted behaviour I did allow myself an inner chuckle - and the chance to see him going for something in tune with his inner instincts, flat out, running beautifully, which is always rewarding to see.

So - essence of that is - management..... and management of my own reactions and panic.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I absolutley agree MerlinsMum  

Management is the first step ALWAYS. Let's face it many many dog behaviours clash with those that humans think are acceptable.

If owners expected and therefore worked to prevent many normal, natural and necessary doggie behaviours (through managment) there would be a massive reduction in the number of dogs moved on/rehomed/surrendered/dumped/worse.
Peeing, humping, pulling, jumping, barking, growling, chewing etc etc are all as normal in dogs as tail wagging - these behaviours are d-o-g.

Management may be the only realistic option in some cases or it may form just the base as training improves - eitherway it sure is important.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tripod said:


> Management may be the only realistic option in some cases or it may form just the base as training improves - eitherway it sure is important.


So to paraphrase a certain mantra that is currently doing the rounds *grin*.... 
Management, Exercise, Discipline (I prefer the word training), Affection...? :001_cool:
:thumbup:

And yes it was funny to see him going off in pursuit - it's only the idea that dogs shouldn't do that and I must be a BAD Dog Owner for it to happen in the first place, that stopped me seeing the funny side. I can laugh it off - I know full well he'd chase a bike, a scooter an anything given the chance but my careful management prevents that. On the odd occasion something slips by like that, no need to beat myself up about it or reach for something aversive!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I tell owners that when their management strategies fail to roll up that newspaper and bop themselves over the head  (only joking of course but....!!)

New mantra proposal:

---management, appropriate outlets, alternative behaviours and have fun! ---

If you can't do that, get a cat :lol:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Say for example a bc chases cars what would it be
1. Management: keep them onlead near cars
2. Appropriate behaviours: ignore the cars
3. Outlets: Take them to agility/herding classes

After all it is a natural behaviour herding instinct gone wrong. There was a corgi with 3 legs who always used to chase cars near me and the owners would always complain when he did. They still let him out to run fwee though


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tripod said:


> New mantra proposal:
> 
> ---management, appropriate outlets, alternative behaviours and have fun! ---


I love it! Sometimes I think people need to be told it's *ok* to laugh when your dog makes a mistake as long as nobody gets hurt - Dogs are natural slapstick comedians anyway. If you don't appreciate that then you're missing something.

Even cats have a sense of humour and I was well trained by mine, I owned Siamese & Orientals for 20 years, not the easiest of cats! I now have a basic moggy and wow she is hard work - she is gone into terminal sulk as she was spayed yesterday and is wearing a lampshade.... won't even allow me to touch her. My Siamese always still managed to be themselves and make the best of things, so much like dogs in that respect.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Say for example a bc chases cars what would it be
> 1. Management: keep them onlead near cars
> 2. Appropriate behaviours: ignore the cars


2. comes under 1. if you have an addicted dog. Sometimes there is no way to get an ignore. You can only manage. 
Same dog might have alternate outlets, but it's the biggie when they find themselves able to chase a car/bike/whatever. You have to recognise what's top of the dog's list, and manage it. If a dog started chasing a car and it suddenly started raining tennis balls, even that wouldn't stop the chase with the really dedicated ones. Nothing can compete with the immense burst of in-body chemical satisfaction... it's like an orgasm to that kind of dog. Which was what I was trying to say earlier....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> It's generally in the garden if someone... drive(s) up our street on a bike or in a car. It doesn't happen (often)...
> It's not a road... people sometimes drive their bikes up or park their cars (there, altho)... it's meant to only be for pedestrians.


teaching him SPEAK! and _~hush...~~_ are steps One + Two to put barking under stimulus-control (cue on + off). 
SPEAK! is exciting + crisp; _~hush...~~_ is whispered, U get very-still, Eyes-On-Eyes and finger across lips.

once U have SPEAK! and ~hush...~ on cue indoors, under quiet circs, add the precursor (motors) as a distraction; 
use video-recordings to control the volume, starting low + raising the volume. 
(so far, this is 3 to 6 days of training, a total of *maybe* 10 to 15-mins a day; 30-mins to 1.5-hrs total-time.)

MEANWHILE, 
if a car/bike comes up the walk, PICK-UP his drag + go indoors; he cannot practice *bark* during the training. 
once he responds reliably + calmly 4 times of 5 to the recording at live-volume, start to use real-life - but MOVE him 
away-from the side of the yard nearest the walkway, using the drag. this reduces the intensity of the stimulus, 
making it more goof-proof for training.

heres one version - 
Dissociate the cue-stimulus from the exciting event: 
HowStuffWorks Videos "Barking at the Door"
cue = doorbell 
exciting event = visitor; friend or stranger, any visitors are exciting 
unwanted-beh: crowd the door, bark, escape to bark-threat, etc. 
DESIRED beh: settle nearby + be calm + quiet

the doorbell is rung repeatedly by prior-arrangement by a stooge, who does NOT expect a response. 
reward the dog at the door; barking lessens (extinction) b/c the exciting event (visitor!) does not happen; the bell-ringers leave. 
after quiet is achieved, the dog is shaped/lured to a mat, and rewarded ONLY on the mat. 
once the dog can stay on the mat, crack the door open; then the visitor can speak; and finally, the visitor can enter, 
without barks, threats, jumping, escaping, body-blocking, air-snaps, paw-marks, etc. 
*much-more pleasant arrival!* :thumbup:

splitting the precursor from the trigger + rewarding cal can be as simple as playing audio-video of racing cars, 
and rewarding the dog for being able to lie-down + not react.  
this can be done with a virtual-car; simply transfer the cue (mat, etc) outside to the real-world + real-car, with a drag as back-up.

using the leash as a drag ensures he can be led to the mat, if he gets over-excited during the learning phase. 
or just step on the leash, ask him to SIT in place, and offer a treat for quiet.

i;m sure U can see how to tweak this for the outdoor-car/bike vs the visitor-at-the-door scenario.

i have another one, but its too late; i need to sleep!  
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I've only had Toby just over 2 months & he used to bark at the door everytime he heard a noise. The past week we have really concentrated on trying to reduce this behaviour using rewards instead of me shouting at him :frown: & in a REALLY short space of time it seems to have worked (although I do expect this to be ongoing training rather than an immediate remedy). For the past 2 days he has come away from the door when called, sat down, got his treat & remained calm.
I also have been using this when making him wait for his dinner; the cats are fed first & he has to wait for them to finish. Prevously he would bark, whine & I'd shout at him which obviously didn't help as the situation would repeat every day. Now he sits as told & I reward him every so often for being good, rather than coming out of the kitchen to tell him to be quiet. 
I haven't had him that long but he is such a brilliant dog. The advice I have looked at on here has been *BRILLIANT*, I really think it has helped me massively with having my first dog.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

That's awesome Cleo38 - results and harmony in the house 

For the people who think it's 'gone over the top' to avoid saying no: as mentioned I don't really object to 'no' or 'ah-ah' as a communication tool, as long as you do it along with management and redirection. However it is _really _easy to go from 'no' or 'ah-ah' to shouting - we humans seem to do it almost automatically if our first try does not work. So I think there's merit in thinking about positive interruptors and trying to implement them, so that you don't end up reverting to 'loud and threatening' as quickly. And that can only be a good thing..


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Say for example a bc chases cars what would it be
> 1. Management: keep them onlead near cars
> 2. Appropriate behaviours: ignore the cars
> 3. Outlets: Take them to agility/herding classes
> ...


Management first: yes keep on leash and remain at such a distance so as to keep the dog below threshold

Appropriate OUtlet: ball games, dog sports, herding trials or even just training, some other way for him to get his herding jollies

Alternative behaviour: a more acceptable behaviour achieved through desensitisation and counterconditioning, Look at That, Premacking - no aversives required! Desireable alternative behaviour could be loose leash walking, eye contact with owner, down on sight of car etc. Again, ask what would you like the dog to do - can't chase cars if he's doing one of those.

I have a blog post on this exact issue here and a print out of this in table form here 

I love that you bring up cat training too - nobody is quick to apply aversives to cats - imagine using negative reinforcement to teach a cat to sit by for example pushing its butt to the ground...:scared: 
IMO humans apply aversives to dogs (and horses and children) because they can  in the case of dogs and horses we have selectively bred animals that tolerate the s**t we throw at them which to me is the definition of inhumane and why I choose to find a better way



> Same dog might have alternate outlets, but it's the biggie when they find themselves able to chase a car/bike/whatever. You have to recognise what's top of the dog's list, and manage it. If a dog started chasing a car and it suddenly started raining tennis balls, even that wouldn't stop the chase with the really dedicated ones. Nothing can compete with the immense burst of in-body chemical satisfaction... it's like an orgasm to that kind of dog. Which was what I was trying to say earlier....


I get what you're saying alright but that's why management and acceptable outlets are soooooo important. You gotta stop him practicing the undesierable one and make sure from a behavioural health point of view that he can satisfy behaviour needs also.
Will I ever stop my dog from chasing squirrels? No I don't think that will happen. But by using Premacking and others bits and pieces I can at least control him in that situation so that it is safer.
However, it is never safe in vehicle chasers so this is never an option. Therefore management has to be a constant thing but the other boxes have to be ticked too. D+C and Look at That tend to work well with these dogs to teach alternative, more desireable behaviours BUT for the hardcore ones management also needs to be ever-present.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I tried hard to digest most of this last night but the jargon is hard to understand and then make sense of what I'm reading so I gave up.
BUT it must have sunk into my subconscious because I woke this morning knowing exactly how I was going to deal with Heidi's teenage rebellion.

She has some small squeaky balls that she love but have been put away because she either loses them under furniture and drives you mad until their out or is hell bent on destroying them. I used squeakys as distractions in the early puppy days. She went to chase the cat, I squeaked the ball and immediately started a game of fetch. When I thought it was safe, I left her to play with the ball and the cat meandered around freely!! Cats gone, balls away until this evening when the cats will be back.

I have made a mistake that I find hard to rectify. Initially I would distract her, giver her a treat and say good girl. She has taken good girl to mean she can then resume the undesired behaviour. I have stopped saying it and in most cases we are ok now. Walking to heel however is a problem. She will do it beautifully but only for a short time and I keep on having to remind her. (whacks newspaper over head) What would you suggest, I hate keep nagging at her.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> teaching him SPEAK! and _~hush...~~_ are steps One + Two to put barking under stimulus-control (cue on + off).
> SPEAK! is exciting + crisp; _~hush...~~_ is whispered, U get very-still, Eyes-On-Eyes and finger across lips.
> 
> once U have SPEAK! and ~hush...~ on cue indoors, under quiet circs, add the precursor (motors) as a distraction;
> ...


He knows speak and be quiet so I'll give this a go



tripod said:


> Management first: yes keep on leash and remain at such a distance so as to keep the dog below threshold
> 
> Appropriate OUtlet: ball games, dog sports, herding trials or even just training, some other way for him to get his herding jollies
> 
> ...


I didn't mention cats but I'd pay to see just how injured the idiot that decided to train a cat with a choke collar would end up but of course you can't train or control cats .


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> I didn't mention cats but I'd pay to see just how injured the idiot that decided to train a cat with a choke collar would end up but of course you can't train or control cats  .


:lol: yes, a choke on a cat would be REALLY foolhardy, ouch! i think the eejit would be very sorry indeed...

U can train cats, 
YouTube - clicker training cats 
but U *CANNOT* use punishment or aversives; cats see aversives very purely, as AGGRO, and react to them as such.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh I know I've seen those videos and some are so impressive but some people are under the impression you can't probably from the you must train animals by beating/choking/forcing them days now they've realised just about anything can be trained


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

> I didn't mention cats but I'd pay to see just how injured the idiot that decided to train a cat with a choke collar would end up but of course you can't train or control cats .


Ooops t'was Merlins Mum who brought the felines in to it all 

...can you imagine what would happen if one tried an 'alpha roll' on a cat.....now that would be entertaining :lol:


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Oh cats are happy to roll over... it just brings all 5 weapons into easy reach for use..


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tripod said:


> Ooops t'was Merlins Mum who brought the felines in to it all


Funnily enough it was because of my cats I first heard about Clicker Training! I'm not sure how I learned about a company called Crosskeys, but I signed up for mailing list & got their brochure through the post on a regular basis, as they had books on training cats as well as dogs. I never got round to ordering anything from them and the cat-training kind of fell by the wayside, but at least I got to hear of modern training techniques that way, and was aware of the books available back then - mainly Karen Pryor ones. Must have been about 12 years ago now at least.... there wasn't anything much online that long ago.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> I have made a mistake that I find hard to rectify.
> Initially I would distract her, giver her a treat and say good girl. She has taken good girl to mean she can then resume the undesired behaviour. I have stopped saying it and in most cases we are ok now.
> Walking to heel however is a problem. She will do it beautifully but only for a short time and I keep on having to remind her. (whacks newspaper over head) What would you suggest, I hate (to nag) at her.


 lots of possibilities here... 
* STOP when she forges or pulls, and cue/lure her back to position, praise + continue 
* emergency-U-turn, taking her in the *opp-direction* from the thing she;s pulling towards

in both scenarios, she needs CONSISTENCY for the penny to drop - her clue is only *_that happens whenever i..._ * 
so she needs lots of opps to learn this consequence connects to X-behavior.

choose to heel? 
YouTube - choose to heel

choose to heel - Google Search

ONgoing rewards - 
get her into a good position, and KEEP her there with ongoing rewards - 
hold a toy between Ur hand + her mouth, as U walk - 
oral-dogs love that, the TOY is the substitute for the leash as a physical bridge.

ongoing licky rewards 
pet-squeeze-cheese: low-fat cream chz with salmon-bits or tuna-bits mashed thru it, in a CAMPING tube - re-fillable.

a long-handled SPOON with p-nut-butter or other thickish, gooey goody - 
dog walks + licks, U stop now + then to refill. 
PRACTICE the good position, TEACH the dog where it is... so the dog can find their *place* when cued.

there are lots of ways - all pos-R; deciding WHICH goal-behavior U are aiming for, is the 1st task, 
do U want a *formal heel* or just *Don;t pull* / Loose-Leash Walk = LLW ??

marking that nice little J-hook at the dog-end of a LOOSE leash with a clicker is yet another: 
see the droop, click the dog; first treat every-click, then every-other, every-3rd or 4th, etc; 
MARK it always, but REWARD it more-randomly as they get the concept, 
and for *extra power*/adhesion, *randomize the reward - * 
food, a ball, tug-game, happy play - chase me, jump up and down; whatever things *Ur dog* loves.

anybody else have some? 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ArwenLune said:


> Oh cats are happy to roll over... *it just brings all 5 weapons into easy reach for use... *


:lol: love it... :laugh: good one! :001_tt2: which cat sold out the tribe? :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> ...can you imagine what would happen if one tried an 'alpha roll' on a cat...
> now that would be entertaining :lol:


CM was planning to do a series with wolf-hybrids -  bad idea, as even BREEDING dogs to wolves is IMO a bad idea, 
extremely-damaging to the crossbred progeny, who are neither fish nor fowl. :nonod:

lets suggest he attempt to use his techniques on a Bobcat, intended for educational public-appearances :lol: 
ore perhaps a Lynx - they have been pos-R trained for safe handling, too, 
but one A-roll would probably mean an ER-visit by ambulance :001_tt2: and a very-bad day, indeed. :001_cool:

of course, he can wear a full bite-suit...  i cannot wait for the promo-trailers, 
--- terry


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe lions after all they're the only ones that live in a social hierarchy so he can claim they are actually dominant. I highly doubt even a bite suit would save him getting his head ripped off


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks Terry, Plenty to chose from and work with there. Really appreciate your help. 

There has been a massive improvement this evening with the cats just from the little bit I did this morning.

Cant believe how much easier PR is but how hard it is to condition yourself to think that way!!!!!!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Cant believe how much easier PR is but how hard it is to condition yourself to think that way!!!!!!!!


thats the germ of the seed... :huh: its a complete about-face of the usual.

it is So Easy to think in terms of push, correct, discipline, etc; i SWEAR its a cultural-default for western-Europeans, 
Judeo-Christian + Muslim faiths, and even Hindu-castes - *over-reaching ones caste or violating caste can get U killed.* 
its just a knee-jerk response... pos-R takes thinking, and not reacting.

one is pro-active, the other REactive - the (dog, cat, horse, student, trainee, employee...) already ERRED... 
and we punish the mistake. :skep: but wrapping ones head around pos-R is a strange POV, it takes time + practice.

_*U have done well, grasshopper... :thumbup:  
now to keep the plates spinning... :lol:  *_


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Cant believe how much easier PR is but how hard it is to condition yourself to think that way!!!!!!!!


It is, isn't it? Even if you've never consciously decided or thought about using punishment to teach, I find it's an almost automatic fallback. We humans are raised that way and conditioned to think that way!

In a way I'm glad that I've gotten interested in all this stuff so long before I can get my pup (even though all the dog exposure is kind of torturous sometimes..) because it means I have a lot of time to condition myself to approach everything from the R+ direction. Instead of wanting to train positively but but falling back to ingrained habits and automatic negative responses when things get tough or happen fast.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It was harder for me because I half believed in dominance methods I'm pretty sure even when I joined the site I was convinced prong collars/shock collars were necessary with some dogs and positive training couldn't possibly work with some dogs you had to be hard on them. I never used the harsher methods on Buster though


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i know, its hard to believe aint it?... :lol: gawd i;m fallible... :shocked: what SHALL i do, (wringing hands...) oh, dear... :blush2: :lol:

i *forgot* to peel the angle-brackets off the LINK... so it was dead! :scared: duh... 
_____________________________________________ 
heres one version - 
Dissociate the cue-stimulus from the exciting event: 
HowStuffWorks Videos "Barking at the Door"
cue = doorbell 
exciting event = visitor; friend or stranger, any visitors are exciting 
unwanted-beh: crowd the door, bark, escape to bark-threat, etc. 
DESIRED beh: settle nearby + be calm + quiet

the doorbell is rung repeatedly by prior-arrangement by a stooge, who does NOT expect a response. 
reward the dog at the door; barking lessens (extinction) b/c the exciting event (visitor!) does not happen; the bell-ringers leave. 
after quiet is achieved, the dog is shaped/lured to a mat, and rewarded ONLY on the mat. 
once the dog can stay on the mat, crack the door open; then the visitor can speak; and finally, the visitor can enter, 
without barks, threats, jumping, escaping, body-blocking, air-snaps, paw-marks, etc. 
*much-more pleasant arrival!* :thumbup:

splitting the precursor from the trigger + rewarding cal can be as simple as playing audio-video of racing cars, 
and rewarding the dog for being able to lie-down + not react.  
this can be done with a virtual-car; simply transfer the cue (mat, etc) outside to the real-world + real-car, with a drag as back-up.

using the leash as a drag ensures he can be led to the mat, if he gets over-excited during the learning phase. 
or just step on the leash, ask him to SIT in place, and offer a treat for quiet.

i;m sure U can see how to tweak this for the outdoor-car/bike vs the visitor-at-the-door scenario. 
____________________________________

sorry, guys... :laugh: i have to USE them in plain-text + i forget here Not To Use them. 
another pesky well-habituated default... :huh: hmmmm...

i will try to keep mindful of the [email protected]#$%*! <_____ > darn it...

--- terry


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah I'm sure I can find a way to tweak it. Play the sound and use that as a cue to come inside maybe or go to his bed or something. Cars and motorbikes don't bother him outside just when they go past his garden maybe it's a terrier thing


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I have to say its funny how the thread got onto training cats - I caught the most amusing / tragic conversation a few months back between two colleagues.

One of my female colleagues has a cat, who she loves a little more than the cat appreciates. She insists on picking the cat up and cuddling and kissing it at every opportunity - knowing the cat objects. Unsurprisingly she frequently comes into work with fresh scratches from her latest attempt to smother the cat with kisses.
One of my male colleagues (obviously been watching far too much CM) proceeded to tell her the cat was obviously very dominant and she should scruff it every time it scratched her!

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry - great idea. So you manhandle a cat that you know dislikes being restricted, enforce your idea of "love" knowing how the cat will react, then scruff it when it retaliates? Gneuis. That must be the fastest way to an un-handlable cat I have ever heard.

And a dominant cat? Precious....

On a side note, I had my kittens for about 6 weeks now, and even without a clicker have taught them "touch it" using my Harry Potter wand, and "sit". Amazing what you can do with luring and prawn treats.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> ...you manhandle a cat that you know dislikes being restricted, enforce your idea of "love" knowing how the cat will react, then scruff it when it retaliates? Gneuis. That must be the fastest way to an un-handlable cat I have ever heard.
> 
> And a dominant cat? Precious....
> 
> On a side note, I had my kittens for about 6 weeks now, and even without a clicker have taught them "touch it" using my Harry Potter wand, and "sit". Amazing what you can do with luring and prawn treats.


let me be the FIRST to suggest that the M-colleague be permitted to do his version of B-Mod with this cat, :lol: 
in a closed room, alone, on CC-TV.  i would love to see it...

congratulations on the target-training with the kitties :thumbup: 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Colette said:


> On a side note, I had my kittens for about 6 weeks now, and even without a clicker have taught them "touch it" using my Harry Potter wand, and "sit". Amazing what you can do with luring and prawn treats.


Wow would love to have that on camera to watch - I get all emotional when I see any animal 'working' because they want to and without coercion etc. Well done you - love it love it love it



> One of my female colleagues has a cat, who she loves a little more than the cat appreciates. She insists on picking the cat up and cuddling and kissing it at every opportunity - knowing the cat objects. Unsurprisingly she frequently comes into work with fresh scratches from her latest attempt to smother the cat with kisses.
> One of my male colleagues (obviously been watching far too much CM) proceeded to tell her the cat was obviously very dominant and she should scruff it every time it scratched her!
> 
> I didn't know whether to laugh or cry - great idea. So you manhandle a cat that you know dislikes being restricted, enforce your idea of "love" knowing how the cat will react, then scruff it when it retaliates? Gneuis. That must be the fastest way to an un-handlable cat I have ever heard.
> ...


Yes, would also love that on camera but for all sorts of other reasons :lol:

Indeed, a dominant cat - about as likely as a dominant dog.... :eek6:


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

....on that note.... a wonderful clip of free lunging through clicker training - no bit, no bridle, no coercion, no nothing except partnership...beautiful :001_wub:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Gregory50 said:


> This is positive training gone mad imo. We can't even tell our dogs "no" now, wtf? Is this this real?


hey, greg! :--) did U watch the video? 
YouTube - How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training

it shows a very clear demo... 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, greg! :--) did U watch the video?
> YouTube - How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training
> 
> it shows a very clear demo...
> ...


Makes a lot more sense to use a positive interruptor rather than a negative one? After all, a dog is an animal, it doesn't understand our logic. All it knows is that we are grumpy, it doesn't neccessarily figure out why? :confused1: We shout no, dog stops and looks up, we continue to be grumpy at it! What has the dog learned? That when it looks up, we tell it off more! Like that makes sense? :


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## mum2three (Jan 5, 2010)

I hate that I'm so easily swayed. I started reading this thread thinking "what a great vid, have to try something like this". By the time I'd read a few replies I think maybe my "oi" and "ah ah" isn't so bad.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

mum2three said:


> I hate that I'm so easily swayed.  I started reading this thread thinking "what a great vid, have to try
> something like this". By the time I'd read a few replies... my "oi" and "ah ah" isn't so bad.


why not try it and see?  humans have a habit of putting all the CHANGE responsibilities on the dog - give it a trial run for 2 weeks, and see what comes of it. 
then come back and tell us...  i;d bet the dog becomes more enthusiastic about training (just a hunch, but i;ll play it). 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## Gregory50 (Jan 18, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> hey, greg! :--) did U watch the video?
> YouTube - How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training
> 
> it shows a very clear demo...
> ...


hey, terry

i watched the video

did you read my comment?

it very clearly shows my opinion
cheers, greg


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I verbally correct simply because by the time I've gone and grabbed the clicker it's too bloody late! I don't carry one on me 24/7 and tbh the clicking noise really grates on me after a while :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Gregory50 said:


> i watched the video
> did you read my comment? it very clearly shows my opinion.


well, in that case, _bah-bah, y;all... _  i *could* suggest that U try it, and see what changes are revealed 
in Ur dogs behavior - but Ur rude [WTF] comment makes that effort superfluous. 

Judge Learned Hand paraphrased Oliver Wendell Holmes - 
The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye - the more light you shine upon it, the smaller it becomes.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I verbally correct simply because by the time I've gone and grabbed the clicker it's too bloody late!
> I don't carry one on me 24/7...


U don;t need a clicker for a positive-interruptor; it can be anything, including the dogs Sacred Name... 
which should of course, be a happy thing. 

cheers, 
--- terry


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> U don;t need a clicker for a positive-interruptor; it can be anything, including the dogs Sacred Name...
> which should of course, be a happy thing.
> 
> cheers,
> --- terry


You mean me doing the sweet sickly voice of "Luuuunaaaa? What ya doing? Cme here you good girl, stop eating that, I feel like killing you half the time" and distracting her with a toy or something is a positive verbal correction? Awesome.

I started doing that when my throat got sore from telling them off so much


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I started doing that when my throat got sore from telling them off so much


yup - like that :thumbup: did U ever read *jack londons* book, White Fang?

theres a scene in it where the trapper has bet his entire *poke* (his gold-dust for the past X-weeks or months) 
on his dogs ability to *break free a loaded-sled carrying a thousand pounds, ALONE... 
and move it a marked distance. * to say this is hard is a miracle of understatement - it is well-nigh impossible, 
like catching a leaping salmon with one hand. just breaking the sled free means the dog has to KNOW to throw his weight 
to one side, and then the other, to shatter the ice holding the metal runners frozen to the snow. then... he has to break its inertia, 
and finally gather it up and get it to move fluidly, not in fits + starts, along a straight path.

to get the dog motivated, he takes Bucks head in his hands on either side, puts his face down close, and curses him... 
in a near-whisper of loving tones, every nasty evil turn of phrase he knows, shaking the dogs head side to side, 
with their foreheads nearly touching, and his eyes on the dogs eyes... 
when he turns him loose, Buck springs to his feet, and stands as if electrified, his eyes glowing with his deep love - 
and the man says, _as U love me, Buck - as U love me... _ 
and then he says GEE and Buck lunges right, and HAW and Buck lunges left, and MUSH... 
and Buck moves the sled, and all H*** breaks loose, men screaming and pounding each other + hugging + crying, 
cause a LOT of money was bet - and the outsider that started it all offers a *phenomenal* amount of money for Buck, 
a small fortune for this dog - and the man draws himself up, looks him in the eye, and says, with tears in his eyes, 
_ U, sir can go to H***..._ and goes back to hugging his good dog - 
who just won him a years wages, in a matter of minutes.

cursing Buck in that soft, tender voice was his way of jazzing the dog.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

JSR said:


> I have also clicker trained my horse to great effect but sometimes he also needs a loud OY MATE which because used rarely has the effect wanted...choice between half a tonne of mad horse in my space or him crushing me means if my voice is needed then by god I'll use it!!:lol:


To right. I aint clicker trained him and I very rarely shout at him, but a loud "MANNERS!" usually puts him back in his box (or stops him booting the door/dragging me across the field!)

I do it with Rupert too. If he picks up something in the garden, like a snail  that he isn't supposed to have I say "ah ah ah" and he'll drop it. I also do it when he starts biting me and he stops...for 5 seconds.

I don't do it when I catch him in process of having an accident though. Then I simply say his name in a really bouncy voice and say "outside!". I don't want him thinking having a wee is a bad thing!


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