# Help! sick fancy goldfish



## The Dunn

I just started keeping fish and moved my fancy goldfish (redcap oranda) to a bigger tank (67 litres) about 10 days ago, I know that it was stressed out from being moved as it instantly started to act strangely (hiding behind the filter of the tank, hardly moving, not eating, gasping for air). I keep the fish with a few white cloud mountain minnows and a weather loach. I noticed a few days ago that its tail had become ragged like it was being eaten away by something now it only has a little stump of a tail. It has now stopped gasping for air and has come out from behind the filter willingly but I haven't seen it eat the whole time and I also haven't seen the minnows nip at its tail ( though they could have when it was behind the filter because they liked to hang there a lot) its swimming is improving but it looks like it takes alot of effort to move about the water because it has practically no tail. I did a 30% water change on Sunday and also tested the water for ammonia, pH, nitrites, nitrates etc throughout the week and the water was fine. I'm not sure what caused its tail to degenerate like that and I'm not sure how to help my fish. Could somebody please respond to my post? I would be most grateful. Also I have pictures of the fish and its tail but I'm not sure how to post them?


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## Lurcherlad

Didn't want to read and run, but soz don't know what to advise.

Hope someone comes along soon with some help for you.

We had the opposite with our fancy goldfish and the minnows (despite being assured they were compatible). The minnows started disappearing 

Ended up with 2 tanks cos had to separate them. No more problems after that.

Could the loach be a problem?


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## Sled dog hotel

The Dunn said:


> I just started keeping fish and moved my fancy goldfish (redcap oranda) to a bigger tank (67 litres) about 10 days ago, I know that it was stressed out from being moved as it instantly started to act strangely (hiding behind the filter of the tank, hardly moving, not eating, gasping for air). I keep the fish with a few white cloud mountain minnows and a weather loach. I noticed a few days ago that its tail had become ragged like it was being eaten away by something now it only has a little stump of a tail. It has now stopped gasping for air and has come out from behind the filter willingly but I haven't seen it eat the whole time and I also haven't seen the minnows nip at its tail ( though they could have when it was behind the filter because they liked to hang there a lot) its swimming is improving but it looks like it takes alot of effort to move about the water because it has practically no tail. I did a 30% water change on Sunday and also tested the water for ammonia, pH, nitrites, nitrates etc throughout the week and the water was fine. I'm not sure what caused its tail to degenerate like that and I'm not sure how to help my fish. Could somebody please respond to my post? I would be most grateful. Also I have pictures of the fish and its tail but I'm not sure how to post them?


Im no expert we have Koi in a pond but thats usually OHs department more then mine. There is something called tail and fin rot which is known by the looks of it in fancy gold fish quite a bit. Pictures to compare on here
fancy goldfish tail and fin rot - Google Search

There is more details on here about fin and tail rot and treatment just looking quickly here is one link, but Im sure if you google treating tail and fin rot in fancy goldfish you will likely find better information still.

Aquarium FD - Fin Rot (Tail Rot) - Disease Identification, Diagnosis & Treatment

Hope this might help, hopefully someone more experienced will come along with better information and more help.


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## The Dunn

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I don't think the loach has anything to do with it, it likes to dwell around the gravel and tends to stick to the bottom of the tank wheras my little oranda doesn't ever swim that low. I just wasn't sure what was causing the tail to end up like that. The fish seems to be getting a bit better in relation to its strange behaviour as it is swimming a bit better and isn't gasping for air. My main worries are actually if it's tail will ever grow back? It is quite stubby and very problematic for the fishes swimming so I wouldn't like to see the fish suffer if it cannot recover. I also wanted to ask if there is any way to get it to eat?


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## The Dunn

Sled dog hotel said:


> Im no expert we have Koi in a pond but thats usually OHs department more then mine. There is something called tail and fin rot which is known by the looks of it in fancy gold fish quite a bit. Pictures to compare on here
> fancy goldfish tail and fin rot - Google Search
> 
> There is more details on here about fin and tail rot and treatment just looking quickly here is one link, but Im sure if you google treating tail and fin rot in fancy goldfish you will likely find better information still.
> 
> Aquarium FD - Fin Rot (Tail Rot) - Disease Identification, Diagnosis & Treatment
> 
> Hope this might help, hopefully someone more experienced will come along with better information and more help.


Thank you for the reply. Fin rot was something I had been considering! which is why I purchased a fin rot treatment but didn't want to use it until I was certain. I asked my sister who is a vet student and she said that even though the wearing down of the fins was quite extensive , it was not really ragged and quite even which was why I wasn't sure but she also said that it could be because the tail would rot away only so much until it reaches the body, I dunno. It's only one fish that is affected all the others are fine.


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## The Dunn

Finally worked out how to upload pics, here he/she is. As I said the fin rot or whatever it may be is quite extensive. Anyone have any advice from seeing the pics? Anyone able to say if the fish could recover? Thanks


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## NaomiM

Hi,

When you say the ammonia and nitrite levels are fine, does that mean they are at 0? What are you using to test - a liquid test or a paper strip?

The reason I ask is that conditions like fin rot are usually brought on by poor water quality - which means anything above 0 for ammonia or nitrite. And the fact that it started just after the move indicates that it could be 'new tank syndrome' - the symptoms of not moving and gasping for air indicate this too. Did you do a full fishless cycle on the new tank before you transferred the fish?

Also, when you do water changes, are you checking that the new water you add is the same temperature as what's in the tank? Water that's just come from the tap will be colder than a room temperature tank, and this could be stressing the fish out, making it more liable to infection.

Damaged tails/fins can grow back, but only if the water quality is kept pristene, otherwise they're prone to secondary infection. Melafix is a good medication for fin rot, and worth using, but keeping the water conditions perfect is even more important.

With regard to getting it to feed, try crushing a clove of garlic, and adding this (with the juices) to the tank - the fish will get some of the juices even if it doesn't eat it, and it helps to stimulate the appetite, plus boost the immune system.

Good luck and hope your fishy pulls through!

P.S. Despite what shops usually say, a fancy goldfish will eat minnows when it gets big!


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## Sled dog hotel

Not eating apparently according to the link I gave you on fin and tail rot is part of the illness. It says if left it will rot back to the fin base and may even start to attack the body. From your photos from what I can see it doesnt look like its rotted right back to the fin base yet. The link says that once it has rotted back to the fin base they cant regenerate the tail meaning it wont grow back ever. It also says that it isnt hard to treat with the right medication( and apparently fin and tail rot can be either fungal or bacterial.) So at the moment as it doesnt look rotted right back to the fin base if you get the treatment and do it quickly she could well have a chance.

Have you got any good aquatic shops near you with knowledgeable people?
If so I would pop along and get the medication and ask for advice how to treat.


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## WelshYorkieLover

I'm sorry to hear about your trouble with your fishies. I've had hundreds of fish over the years. There's nothing more relaxing that watching them swim about happily.

I am no expert at all but i'd look into the possibility of fin rot. From what i remember it takes hold quickly and can be quite devastating. There's lots of things you can buy to put in the water to treat this but maybe go to an aquatic store and have a chat with someone who knows what they're talking about.

Good luck and keep us updated! I love goldfish etc. such pretty and graceful things! My gran had a tank with fish in an when we were kids us grandkids were able to choose one fish to put in their tank. Everyone chose fancy ones, one very much like the red cap you have and i chose this tiny plain goldfish that only cost 79p. Everyone was making fun of me for chosing such an 'insignificant thing' but i got him anyway. 12 years later and he was the biggest in the tank!!! he was massive! to get him out to clean him out we hand to use 2 1litre jugs and we'd put one at the head and the other at the bottom and he still didn't properly fit!! Sadly George (which is what I called him) has passed away and was so big we had to bury him in the garden as he wouldn't fit down the toilet which got us kids crying cos he wouldn't be able to be in sea heaven!


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## The Dunn

Sled dog hotel said:


> Not eating apparently according to the link I gave you on fin and tail rot is part of the illness. It says if left it will rot back to the fin base and may even start to attack the body. From your photos from what I can see it doesnt look like its rotted right back to the fin base yet. The link says that once it has rotted back to the fin base they cant regenerate the tail meaning it wont grow back ever. It also says that it isnt hard to treat with the right medication( and apparently fin and tail rot can be either fungal or bacterial.) So at the moment as it doesnt look rotted right back to the fin base if you get the treatment and do it quickly she could well have a chance.
> 
> Have you got any good aquatic shops near you with knowledgeable people?
> If so I would pop along and get the medication and ask for advice how to treat.


Yeah from reading the page on fin rot you showed me, I think that's what it must be! I do know of an aquatic shop but it's not so near where I live, I have been pretty busy recently and that's the reason why I firstly went for ordering medication online on the premise of next day delivery ( which never happened) because I thought my fish was really poorly/dying. I should however be getting the medication delivered tomorrow  It's called eSHa 2000 - Fungus, Finrot and Bacteria Treatment. I only bought it based on reviews from fishowners so I'll have to wait and see if it works! I think I'll visit the aquatics shop at the weekend when I have time, to ask about my tank setup and see if they have any advice on my fish's situation. From what I've heard the people who work there are quite knowledgeable but for now the medication I ordered will have to do since it needs to be treated quickly. Thanks again for the advice.


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## Sled dog hotel

The Dunn said:


> Yeah from reading the page on fin rot you showed me, I think that's what it must be! I do know of an aquatic shop but it's not so near where I live, I have been pretty busy recently and that's the reason why I firstly went for ordering medication online on the premise of next day delivery ( which never happened) because I thought my fish was really poorly/dying. I should however be getting the medication delivered tomorrow  It's called eSHa 2000 - Fungus, Finrot and Bacteria Treatment. I only bought it based on reviews from fishowners so I'll have to wait and see if it works! I think I'll visit the aquatics shop at the weekend when I have time, to ask about my tank setup and see if they have any advice on my fish's situation. From what I've heard the people who work there are quite knowledgeable but for now the medication I ordered will have to do since it needs to be treated quickly. Thanks again for the advice.


Your very welcome hope you get it sorted.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Hi,
> 
> When you say the ammonia and nitrite levels are fine, does that mean they are at 0? What are you using to test - a liquid test or a paper strip?
> 
> The reason I ask is that conditions like fin rot are usually brought on by poor water quality - which means anything above 0 for ammonia or nitrite. And the fact that it started just after the move indicates that it could be 'new tank syndrome' - the symptoms of not moving and gasping for air indicate this too. Did you do a full fishless cycle on the new tank before you transferred the fish?
> 
> Also, when you do water changes, are you checking that the new water you add is the same temperature as what's in the tank? Water that's just come from the tap will be colder than a room temperature tank, and this could be stressing the fish out, making it more liable to infection.
> 
> Damaged tails/fins can grow back, but only if the water quality is kept pristene, otherwise they're prone to secondary infection. Melafix is a good medication for fin rot, and worth using, but keeping the water conditions perfect is even more important.
> 
> With regard to getting it to feed, try crushing a clove of garlic, and adding this (with the juices) to the tank - the fish will get some of the juices even if it doesn't eat it, and it helps to stimulate the appetite, plus boost the immune system.
> 
> Good luck and hope your fishy pulls through!
> 
> P.S. Despite what shops usually say, a fancy goldfish will eat minnows when it gets big!


I'm not sure if my reply was posted properly because it's not showing? so I'll try write it out again haha. I'm using paper strip test - tetra 6 in 1. I didn't do a full fishless cycle for the new tank :/ and I'm guessing I should have. I leave the tap water with treatment a couple of hours to adjust to room temperature before doing the water change but do not actually check the temperature. I will do so in future just to be safe! I bought a medication for finrot called eSHa 2000 - Fungus, Finrot and Bacteria Treatment, I don't know what this is like in comparison to melafix but it seemed to have decent reviews from fishowners online. Have you heard of it? As for water changes the last one I did was 30% water change, is this adequate? and how often should I be doing water changes with a sick fish? should I be using the gravel hoover thing ( can't remember the proper name for it) every time? incase it stresses the fish more. Thanks for the garlic tip! I'll make sure to try it. I had no idea about fancy goldfish eating minnows because it was the pet shop that recommended I get them together! Thanks for the advice


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## The Dunn

WelshYorkieLover said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your trouble with your fishies. I've had hundreds of fish over the years. There's nothing more relaxing that watching them swim about happily.
> 
> I am no expert at all but i'd look into the possibility of fin rot. From what i remember it takes hold quickly and can be quite devastating. There's lots of things you can buy to put in the water to treat this but maybe go to an aquatic store and have a chat with someone who knows what they're talking about.
> 
> Good luck and keep us updated! I love goldfish etc. such pretty and graceful things! My gran had a tank with fish in an when we were kids us grandkids were able to choose one fish to put in their tank. Everyone chose fancy ones, one very much like the red cap you have and i chose this tiny plain goldfish that only cost 79p. Everyone was making fun of me for chosing such an 'insignificant thing' but i got him anyway. 12 years later and he was the biggest in the tank!!! he was massive! to get him out to clean him out we hand to use 2 1litre jugs and we'd put one at the head and the other at the bottom and he still didn't properly fit!! Sadly George (which is what I called him) has passed away and was so big we had to bury him in the garden as he wouldn't fit down the toilet which got us kids crying cos he wouldn't be able to be in sea heaven!


Yeah you're right! I've never actually had pet fish of my own before, I got them as a christmas present from my mum and they actually make great little pets, all with their own personalities. I love 'em they are quite friendly and as you say relaxing to watch. Finrot is something I suspected, which is why I ordered medication. It was quite a shock to see my fancy goldfish with its pretty tail completely ruined and it happened so quickly. I'm really hoping this medication works and it can recover! in the future if I have problems I'll go to my nearest aquatics store but in this case I just went for the option where I could treat my fish sooner rather than later and order online. Aw I like your story  12 years is a long time! I hope I can keep fish for that long. My favourite fish at the moment is actually the weather loach I have even though he might not be the most fancy of fish, he is the funniest to watch! I'll keep you all updated on the situation and thanks for the reply.


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## WelshYorkieLover

George (big fish!) had a weather loach in with him too. And he lived for about 10 years! He grew huge too. He was called Vax and my parents had one at the same time called Hoover he he. What's all yours called? The last tank I had I called them all after the characters in Lost!


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## WelshYorkieLover

You are right about their little personalities! You'd never believe it unless you saw it for yourself but they're all different. And its surprising how attached you get even though you can cuddle them or anything. Though I cuddled my first ever fish to death  I was 18 months old and my dad won me a goldfish from a fairground and my mum turned her back for two mins and i had my hands in there and managed to catch him and she found me cuddling and kissing him. unfortunately he was dead


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## The Dunn

WelshYorkieLover said:


> George (big fish!) had a weather loach in with him too. And he lived for about 10 years! He grew huge too. He was called Vax and my parents had one at the same time called Hoover he he. What's all yours called? The last tank I had I called them all after the characters in Lost!


Aw cool, I've got a cave for my weather loach in my tank and a pebble bridge and although he seems to love his hiding places he's interesting to watch when visible. My mum had a weather loach when I was much younger and apparently he jumped out of the tank one time without her actually noticing and must have managed to wriggle over to the dogs water bowl and stayed there overnight! he had scales and damage to his fin but he made a full recovery and lived for about 10 ish years aswell! that fish was a survivor haha I haven't actually named my fish. I was thinking but I haven't come up with any good ones yet. Hoover is a brilliant name! haha I think I might use that as inspiration and name my loach Henry after Henry hoover


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## NaomiM

Esha 2000 is also a good medication. Hope it works out for you.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Esha 2000 is also a good medication. Hope it works out for you.


Hi I just got back home and its been delivered, not sure what to make of the instructions. I've calculated the dosage for the 3 days based on the amount of water in my tank but it says for very sick fish (I think mine might be) that I should double the standard 3 day dose. That would be ok except for the fact that it says elsewhere overdosing is not recommended and I wouldn't want it to adversely affect my other fish in the tank. Any suggestions? or should I just go for the normal dose?


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## NaomiM

Hmm, tricky one... you don't have any coldwater-fish-keeping friends who could temporarily rehome the minnows and loach while you treat the goldfish, do you? The loach in particular may be sensitive to higher dosages of medication because they're scaleless fish, which means it could 'burn' them in too high doses. So if you have to treat the whole tank with all the fish in, I'd just use the standard dose - the last thing you want to do is harm a healthy fish.

Sorry I didn't see your answers to my other questions before! The test strips aren't very accurate, and in an uncycled tank (particularly with a goldie), I expect you have some levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, which could have triggered the problem in the first place. If you possibly can, try to get hold of a liquid test kit such as the API master kit (I think it's about £20 on Amazon at the moment, or most aquatic shops sell it too).

You probably need to be changing a percentage of the water daily with an uncycled tank. The test results (from a liquid kit) would determine what percentage to change, as the aim is to reduce ammonia and nitrite levels to under 0.25ppm each. Yes the water changes can be stressful for them, but having ammonia/nitrite present in the water is more stressful and causes long-term damage.

You'll need to calculate how much medication was chucked out with the old water, and replace this after a water change.

If you know of anyone who keeps fish and has an established tank, ask them for a little piece of media, or even a squeeze of water from a filter sponge, to put in your filter. It will contain good bacteria to help process the ammonia/nitrite, and will help your tank cycle faster.

With regards to the gravel vac, what quantity of muck are you syphoning up when you do it? If you're getting lots every time, I'd keep doing it frequently, because as the waste breaks down it's releasing ammonia into your water. Depending on what filter you have though, some of them are really good at trapping the waste, so all you'll need to do is give the outer/top sponge a gentle swill in old tank water every week or so (don't use tap water as it kills the good bacteria, and don't squeeze it out too hard).

What I do with the gravel syphon, if there's not a lot of muck to suction up, is start it up, then just hold it in one place at the bottom of the tank and let the water flow through. That way it's not stressing the fish out, but it's removing the water from the bottom of the tank rather than the top, because the water at the bottom is generally the worse-quality water.

Sorry for the essay, didn't intend to overwhelm you with info there! Just trying to cover every angle for you!


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## toffee44

What filter have you got. You could run the filter with the goldie in a box (like plastic toy box) The weather loach and minnows could cope without a filter as long as you do frequent water changes. 


However keep some media in the tank as the medication will kill most bacteria in the filter. Difficult one tbh and it's one reason I run two filters with added media in tge external so I can swap and change if needed.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Hmm, tricky one... you don't have any coldwater-fish-keeping friends who could temporarily rehome the minnows and loach while you treat the goldfish, do you? The loach in particular may be sensitive to higher dosages of medication because they're scaleless fish, which means it could 'burn' them in too high doses. So if you have to treat the whole tank with all the fish in, I'd just use the standard dose - the last thing you want to do is harm a healthy fish.
> 
> Sorry I didn't see your answers to my other questions before! The test strips aren't very accurate, and in an uncycled tank (particularly with a goldie), I expect you have some levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, which could have triggered the problem in the first place. If you possibly can, try to get hold of a liquid test kit such as the API master kit (I think it's about £20 on Amazon at the moment, or most aquatic shops sell it too).
> 
> You probably need to be changing a percentage of the water daily with an uncycled tank. The test results (from a liquid kit) would determine what percentage to change, as the aim is to reduce ammonia and nitrite levels to under 0.25ppm each. Yes the water changes can be stressful for them, but having ammonia/nitrite present in the water is more stressful and causes long-term damage.
> 
> You'll need to calculate how much medication was chucked out with the old water, and replace this after a water change.
> 
> If you know of anyone who keeps fish and has an established tank, ask them for a little piece of media, or even a squeeze of water from a filter sponge, to put in your filter. It will contain good bacteria to help process the ammonia/nitrite, and will help your tank cycle faster.
> 
> With regards to the gravel vac, what quantity of muck are you syphoning up when you do it? If you're getting lots every time, I'd keep doing it frequently, because as the waste breaks down it's releasing ammonia into your water. Depending on what filter you have though, some of them are really good at trapping the waste, so all you'll need to do is give the outer/top sponge a gentle swill in old tank water every week or so (don't use tap water as it kills the good bacteria, and don't squeeze it out too hard).
> 
> What I do with the gravel syphon, if there's not a lot of muck to suction up, is start it up, then just hold it in one place at the bottom of the tank and let the water flow through. That way it's not stressing the fish out, but it's removing the water from the bottom of the tank rather than the top, because the water at the bottom is generally the worse-quality water.
> 
> Sorry for the essay, didn't intend to overwhelm you with info there! Just trying to cover every angle for you!


Thanks for the reply I ended up treating with the normal dosage, I would have gone for the higher dose but I don't have any friends in the same city who keep coldwater fish so they'll all have to stick together. If I need to I can always just carry on the normal dose for a few days longer because it says in the instructions thats fine. My mum keeps fish and she's visiting me in a week so I could ask her to bring some water from her tank I also have a bottle of filter start which might help. The fish have now been in their new tank for around 2 weeks now - how long does a tank take to cycle? Oh I didn't realise about the innacuracy of the paper strips, I've now bought the API kit you recommended on amazon, should be here in a few days. Last time I syphoned I didn't get too much muck, the water I got from the tank wasn't that dirty but I'll try your trick with the syphoning and increase the number of water changes I do. Oh and just to update everyone on my fish, I've been using the Esha 2000 medication for 2 days so far and he's looking/acting better already. For the first time since I moved him into his new tank he's started eating! which I was over the moon about ( I tried the garlic in the tank so that might have helped too) he's also swimming better and covering more area in the tank and again, for the first time since moving him into the new tank his dorsal fin is fully up wheras before it was down and his fins were clamped to his sides, his tail doesn't look as red either which is a good thing. Seems like the medication is working, was wondering how long I should keep treating the tank with it? the standard dose is 3 days but it says you can carry on for a number of days longer if you have a very sick fish.The tailrot rotted away quite alot of my fish's tail as you can see from the pictures, so I'm thinking treating longer than the 3 day dose - I just don't know when would be appropriate to stop treatment and to recognise when its working? Also from experience does anyone know how long it takes fish to grow their tail back ( that's if they do) Thank you so much for the advice again! if it wasn't for you I might not have gotten my fish eating again


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## NaomiM

Really glad things look to be improving! :thumbup:

How far away does your mum live? Because a squeeze of filter water in a plastic bag will only last a fairly short time before the good bacteria die off... This is another forum I post on: Tropical Fish Forums UK - Index and they have a "Filter media exchange" section where people in situations such as yourself can post your approximate location and hopefully find someone nearby who can donate a filter squeeze or piece of media. Could be worth a try if your mum is more than 45 mins or so away.

Well done for getting the API kit - they're miles better than the paper ones. As soon as the new kit arrives, test for ammonia and nitrite - they're the most important ones at this stage.

The bad news is that a fish-in cycle (which is what you're now doing) usually takes around 3 months:thumbdown:, during which you should be testing the water every day and doing a water change any time the ammonia and/or nitrite levels are 0.25 or higher. The tank isn't cycled until you're consistently seeing levels of 0 for both ammonia and nitrite. It's why most fishkeepers will recommend a fishless cycle; however, most aquatic shops are rubbish at telling customers this!

With regards to the time for the tail growing back, I'm sorry I don't know as I've not actually had a fish with finrot; I only know what I've learnt from others! As toffee44 said, though, the medication will be killing off some of your good bacteria, so maybe stop after the 3 days since the fish seems to be showing improvement, but be prepared to dose again if necessary?

Another quick point I should have mentioned earlier - do you have any carbon in your filter? If so, take it out, as it will be removing the medication from the water.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Really glad things look to be improving! :thumbup:
> 
> How far away does your mum live? Because a squeeze of filter water in a plastic bag will only last a fairly short time before the good bacteria die off... This is another forum I post on: Tropical Fish Forums UK - Index and they have a "Filter media exchange" section where people in situations such as yourself can post your approximate location and hopefully find someone nearby who can donate a filter squeeze or piece of media. Could be worth a try if your mum is more than 45 mins or so away.
> 
> Well done for getting the API kit - they're miles better than the paper ones. As soon as the new kit arrives, test for ammonia and nitrite - they're the most important ones at this stage.
> 
> The bad news is that a fish-in cycle (which is what you're now doing) usually takes around 3 months:thumbdown:, during which you should be testing the water every day and doing a water change any time the ammonia and/or nitrite levels are 0.25 or higher. The tank isn't cycled until you're consistently seeing levels of 0 for both ammonia and nitrite. It's why most fishkeepers will recommend a fishless cycle; however, most aquatic shops are rubbish at telling customers this!
> 
> With regards to the time for the tail growing back, I'm sorry I don't know as I've not actually had a fish with finrot; I only know what I've learnt from others! As toffee44 said, though, the medication will be killing off some of your good bacteria, so maybe stop after the 3 days since the fish seems to be showing improvement, but be prepared to dose again if necessary?
> 
> Another quick point I should have mentioned earlier - do you have any carbon in your filter? If so, take it out, as it will be removing the medication from the water.


Ah that might be a problem then, my mum lives over an hour away :/ There is an aquatics shop kind of near me and I could be there and back within 45 mins so I guess I could ask them for some of their water, should I use the filter start aswell - will that help with cycling the tank? it says its a bacteria culture which helps rapidly start up the waste breakdown process in the filter. Ah ok, I've given the 3rd dose today so I'll do a water change tomorrow and keep an eye on my fish. Wow I didn't realise it took so long to cycle a tank! my mum asked about setting up the tank and the people selling her the fish didn't even mention that. Oh yeah I took out the carbon in my filter before adding the medication because it said in the instructions  As for the daily water changes - should I just syphon the gravel every day? and clean any algae off the sides of the tank if there is any.


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## NaomiM

Opinion tends to vary on 'bacteria in a bottle' products. Some are totally useless; others can sometimes help, but alternatively may actually work against the 'natural' filter bacteria and slow your cycle. Personally I wouldn't bother with them.

However, what water conditioner are you using? Some of them also de-toxify any ammonia in the tank, which is a good thing. If your water conditioner doesn't do that, you can buy other products that do. When you get your API kit, if your ammonia reading is more than a trace, it may be worth looking into - not as an alternative to regular water changes however, but to supplement them. It doesn't do anything about high nitrite, though.

Yes, asking your shop for a filter squeeze is a good idea - make sure it's water squeezed from a filter sponge, though, not just any old tank water, as only a filter squeeze will contain a significant number of good bacteria. And look at the tanks carefully first to make sure the fish all seem healthy - if you see any with tiny white spots like specks of salt, you don't want to be taking anything from that tank or any of the tanks running from the same system, as the last thing your fish need now when their immunities are low is to be exposed to whitespot parasites.

With the water changes - I wouldn't worry too much about algae, it doesn't harm the fish, so you only need to remove it if there's enough of it to be bugging you. (The various causes of algae is a whole other discussion!) So just a quick syphon of any waste, and use the syphon to remove the appropriate percentage of water. Try not to turn the filter off for any length of time.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Opinion tends to vary on 'bacteria in a bottle' products. Some are totally useless; others can sometimes help, but alternatively may actually work against the 'natural' filter bacteria and slow your cycle. Personally I wouldn't bother with them.
> 
> However, what water conditioner are you using? Some of them also de-toxify any ammonia in the tank, which is a good thing. If your water conditioner doesn't do that, you can buy other products that do. When you get your API kit, if your ammonia reading is more than a trace, it may be worth looking into - not as an alternative to regular water changes however, but to supplement them. It doesn't do anything about high nitrite, though.
> 
> Yes, asking your shop for a filter squeeze is a good idea - make sure it's water squeezed from a filter sponge, though, not just any old tank water, as only a filter squeeze will contain a significant number of good bacteria. And look at the tanks carefully first to make sure the fish all seem healthy - if you see any with tiny white spots like specks of salt, you don't want to be taking anything from that tank or any of the tanks running from the same system, as the last thing your fish need now when their immunities are low is to be exposed to whitespot parasites.
> 
> With the water changes - I wouldn't worry too much about algae, it doesn't harm the fish, so you only need to remove it if there's enough of it to be bugging you. (The various causes of algae is a whole other discussion!) So just a quick syphon of any waste, and use the syphon to remove the appropriate percentage of water. Try not to turn the filter off for any length of time.


OK I won't bother with the filter start if there's a chance it could slow my cycle. I'm using interpet bioactive tapsafe, is that an ok water conditioner? I'll make sure to check these things before getting water from the aquarist. I haven't actually seen any algae around the tank anyway but I give it a wipe every water change because thats what I thought needed to be done but now I know it's not essential then I won't until it becomes annoying. So should the cleaning of the tank be under 45 mins with the filter turned off? so the bacteria don't die? like they would in that time span in bagged up filter water. Thanks again!


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## NaomiM

Not heard of Bioactive Tapsafe. I just Googled it quickly, and it looks like it contains some of the 'bacteria in a bottle' I mentioned earlier, so I guess the same probably applies in terms of possibly slowing the cycle rather than helping it, though I don't know for sure. It'll do the job of removing chlorine and chloramine, though, which is the main thing. If you did want to try a different water conditioner, though, try Googling 'Seachem Prime' - it's one of the most economical as a little goes a very long way, and it also detoxifies ammonia, which is great during a fish-in cycle.

The shorter time the filter is turned off, the better, especially if you're doing daily changes. I use a big 38l tub trug (£4 from Asda!) to get the tap water ready first (up to temperature and dechlorinated), and then a smaller bucket to syphon tankwater into, only switching the filter off when the water level in the tank falls below the filter intake. That way my filter's never off for more than 5 minutes or so.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Not heard of Bioactive Tapsafe. I just Googled it quickly, and it looks like it contains some of the 'bacteria in a bottle' I mentioned earlier, so I guess the same probably applies in terms of possibly slowing the cycle rather than helping it, though I don't know for sure. It'll do the job of removing chlorine and chloramine, though, which is the main thing. If you did want to try a different water conditioner, though, try Googling 'Seachem Prime' - it's one of the most economical as a little goes a very long way, and it also detoxifies ammonia, which is great during a fish-in cycle.
> 
> The shorter time the filter is turned off, the better, especially if you're doing daily changes. I use a big 38l tub trug (£4 from Asda!) to get the tap water ready first (up to temperature and dechlorinated), and then a smaller bucket to syphon tankwater into, only switching the filter off when the water level in the tank falls below the filter intake. That way my filter's never off for more than 5 minutes or so.


Thank you! Just took a look on amazon for seachem prime and it had received amazing reviews! so I've ordered it and it should be with me in a couple of days  I did a water change today, around 30% with the gravel syphon ( since it's daily water changes should I do less than 30%?) and I'm sure I had the filter switched off for around 30-40 mins but I think I could have left it on a bit longer with regards to the water level. I also think I need to get a new gravel syphon, it's the one I had for my little tank and now that I've moved my tank to a much bigger one it's not really appropriate and just takes way longer! are there any ones in particular that you would recommend or are they all quite similar apart from size? I think mine is a pets at home one. Yeah I actually have a big 50l swing bin for my treated tap water and just left it overnight for it to adjust to room temp, I didn't fill it up to the top though because I wasn't sure how long I should keep the water for (treated) if I filled it with 50l treated tap water then it would last me a few water changes but I dunno if that would be the right thing to do?


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## NaomiM

I think with the syphons it's just down to personal preference. Some people like the battery powered ones, some like manual. Mine has a bit you can pump with your hand to get the syphon started. It's just what works for you.

I don't think there woiuld be any harm in leaving dechlorinated water in a container for a few days prior to a water change


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## Tropical Fish Delivered

Depending on the treatment you are using you may have to recycle your tank as most treatments especially those based on malachite and formaldehyde will kill your beneficial bacteria.


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## The Dunn

Tropical Fish Delivered said:


> Depending on the treatment you are using you may have to recycle your tank as most treatments especially those based on malachite and formaldehyde will kill your beneficial bacteria.


I had carbon in my filter that I had to remove while using the medication, now that I've finished the 3 day dosage of eSHa 2000 I can put it back in. Will that be enough to remove the medication from the water? How exactly do I recycle my tank apart from water changes?


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## NaomiM

I wouldn't bother with the carbon TBH, the only time I'd use mine is if I need to remove one medication so that I can switch to a different med. You may need to do another dose of the esha2000 anyway if the tail doesn't continue to improve on its own now. It would be more beneficial to put another fine sponge in there to provide more surface area for the bacteria. Just hang on to the carbon in case you need it in the future.

The good thing about esha2000 is it's quite gentle on filters. It would likely have killed a few of your good bacteria, but hopefully not enough to stall your cycle. Just keep a close eye on your water parameters and carry on doing water changes any time you're getting more than the smallest trace of ammonia or nitrite. And also keep a close eye on all your fish, so that you can spot any further problems and deal with them at the first signs.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> I wouldn't bother with the carbon TBH, the only time I'd use mine is if I need to remove one medication so that I can switch to a different med. You may need to do another dose of the esha2000 anyway if the tail doesn't continue to improve on its own now. It would be more beneficial to put another fine sponge in there to provide more surface area for the bacteria. Just hang on to the carbon in case you need it in the future.
> 
> The good thing about esha2000 is it's quite gentle on filters. It would likely have killed a few of your good bacteria, but hopefully not enough to stall your cycle. Just keep a close eye on your water parameters and carry on doing water changes any time you're getting more than the smallest trace of ammonia or nitrite. And also keep a close eye on all your fish, so that you can spot any further problems and deal with them at the first signs.


I can't really tell if his tail has grown at all or what to expect with the tail growth timewise, all I know is that my fish us feeding well and swimming to all areas of the tank/behaving normally. Would it be ok to do another dose just to be sure? like another 3 day dose or 1 off dose because I can't say I've seen any tail growth, it's just stopped rotting away and he's looking healthier. All my other fish are perfectly fine for now, had a good look at them when I was feeding them today. I try to do water changes as much as I can, did one on Sunday and am going to do another one tomorrow. I use the paper strip tests for now which aren't great but I've ordered API freshwater master test kit which should give me a much better idea of my water parameters. Thanks for your advice!


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## NaomiM

Well it seems like he's hopefully on the road to recovery, though the tail will take several months to grow back, and in some cases it doesn't. I'm not quite sure what to advise you now, as the best thing for the cycle would be to stop dosing meds to let the bacteria colony grow unimpeded, but on the other hand the fish is still susceptible to secondary infection in his tail, and the meds will reduce the likelihood of that. I suppose you could compromise and keep up with the esha, but using half doses?

One thing that will help the fish without having any negative effects at all is the garlic. You can keep on giving them a crushed garlic clove, plus juices, every couple of days, to boost immunity. Just remember to remove the uneaten remains of the clove after an hour or so, before it starts to rot and produce ammonia.

The thing to watch out for on the damaged tail is any cotton-wool-like growths, as damaged fins/tails are very susceptible to fungus. Also any redness around the wound, which could indicate a bacterial infection.


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Well it seems like he's hopefully on the road to recovery, though the tail will take several months to grow back, and in some cases it doesn't. I'm not quite sure what to advise you now, as the best thing for the cycle would be to stop dosing meds to let the bacteria colony grow unimpeded, but on the other hand the fish is still susceptible to secondary infection in his tail, and the meds will reduce the likelihood of that. I suppose you could compromise and keep up with the esha, but using half doses?
> 
> One thing that will help the fish without having any negative effects at all is the garlic. You can keep on giving them a crushed garlic clove, plus juices, every couple of days, to boost immunity. Just remember to remove the uneaten remains of the clove after an hour or so, before it starts to rot and produce ammonia.
> 
> The thing to watch out for on the damaged tail is any cotton-wool-like growths, as damaged fins/tails are very susceptible to fungus. Also any redness around the wound, which could indicate a bacterial infection.


I think I'll use the half doses like you suggested for a couple of days to be safe. Checked him over today and there's no redness or cotton wool like growths and I'll make sure to continue to look at him every day. Here's a little picture update, if you compare with the pics posted earlier in the thread he looks much better. Thank you very much for your help! I'll continue to use the garlic too because that seemed to help


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## NaomiM

He definitely looks happier, well done


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## The Dunn

Update on my fish situation! My mum for my birthday, got me some more fish (as a surprise) which now means my tank is overstocked at the minute! - 64 liter tank for 2 fancy goldfish (both quite young) a weather loach and 6 white cloud mountain minnows. 1 fancy goldfish and 3 of those minnows were added last Friday and unfortunately I had to leave them until Monday, I had done a water change the morning the new fish were added and all seemed fine when I left ( I didn't feed them before I left). I have been doing regular water changes like you said and did one yesterday. As you saw from the picture I posted my red cap oranda was looking much better and he still is! he eats and still swims around the tank, behaves normally! Just before I added the new fish I noticed something odd with his colouring. One side is perfectly white like in the picture but his other side is covered in dark blotches (they look like bruises) it's weird because they are not red streaks, his fins aren't affected - it's just one side of him. I've looked it up and have no idea what it could be. Any ideas from my description? I'll try get a picture and post it tomorrow sometime. Could it be a side affect of the medication? I added more to the tank because it said it was beneficial for the tank when adding new fish ( sterilises them or something ..) the colouring is progressing every day and more discoloured patches are appearing, even after doing water changes. He acts normal but I'm still worried  HELP!


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## NaomiM

I think I've read somewhere that dark coloured patches can be a sign of the healing process (though I don't know why it's on his side rather than his tail, unless he also had some damage to his body that you weren't aware of - possible if he'd been exposed to poor water conditions). Either way, I wouldn't worry too much if he's behaving normally.

Since you're now overstocked, it's particularly important to keep a close eye on your water parameters, and test daily for ammonia and nitrite (and regularly check nitrate levels too). And keep up with the water changes and gravel vacs, as you are doing 

You'll need to upgrade your tank at some stage if you're keeping all those fish - they'll need about 150l. The weather loach would also appreciate more space eventually, and some company of his own kind too!


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> I think I've read somewhere that dark coloured patches can be a sign of the healing process (though I don't know why it's on his side rather than his tail, unless he also had some damage to his body that you weren't aware of - possible if he'd been exposed to poor water conditions). Either way, I wouldn't worry too much if he's behaving normally.
> 
> Since you're now overstocked, it's particularly important to keep a close eye on your water parameters, and test daily for ammonia and nitrite (and regularly check nitrate levels too). And keep up with the water changes and gravel vacs, as you are doing
> 
> You'll need to upgrade your tank at some stage if you're keeping all those fish - they'll need about 150l. The weather loach would also appreciate more space eventually, and some company of his own kind too!


Yeah I looked up the healing suggestion and I think it could be that, his fins are actually now discoloured aswell now but other areas are going back to normal already so I think thats what it is thankfully! there are no bumps either, his scales are smooth so I don't think it's an ulcer or anything. He's still a happy little fish for now and the rest of the fish look healthy too. I tested the water today and from the API freshwater master test kit it says ammonia levels are at 2.0ppm which seems awfully high considering I did a big water change Tuesday night. I'm going to do a water change today if I have time and if not I will definetly be doing one tomorrow. Yeah I know the tank is well and truly overstocked, I would have stopped my mum from buying them if I'd known :/ but it can't really be helped now. My mum bought more fish than that but I refused to take them because it would be dangerously overcrowded and I wouldn't want my little oranda to get ill again. The ones I told her to leave behind were 3 more minnows and another fantail, they are stuck in a really tiny tank (either 17ltr or 19 ltr)  which is pretty cruel in my opinion. She believes that tank size doesn't matter at all and refuses to listen to what I say, take them back to the pet store or look for new homes for them even after the fantail got sick and had to be treated with medication. She even works at pets at home! and all her ideas are based on what the people who sell the fish there tell her - they sold her the tiny tank and said it was big enough for the fantails and countless others, idiots! anyway... I know I'll have to upgrade, my goldfish are still pretty small, I think they are a couple of months old. I never realised loaches liked company. I don't know when in the future I'll beable to get a bigger tank but would it be ok do you think to keep them in the 64 ltr tank until the 2 goldfish have grown a bit bigger or does that not matter? Another thing, how can I definitively say that the fin rot has stopped/been cured? My oranda's tail is still pretty stumpy and I really can't tell if the tail is still rotting away. I'm going to post pics to show you the dark markings. I apologise if they are really blurry and for this post being sooooooooo long, I genuinely appreciate any help/ suggestions


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## magpie

The Dunn said:


> I tested the water today and from the API freshwater master test kit it says ammonia levels are at 2.0ppm which seems awfully high considering I did a big water change Tuesday night.


Unfortunately, with so many fish in such a small tank, this doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm afraid you're going to have a really, REALLY hard time trying to keep your water parameters non-toxic to the fish  And your oranda really needs perfect water quality in order to grow that tail back.

To be honest, your 64 litre tank is only really suitable for the minnows and no other fish. For the goldfish and the loach you ideally need around 150-200 litres, and that's assuming you keep the loach as a singleton (though Naomi has rightly said, they should really be in a group). Is there no way you can convince your mum to take some of the fish back?

The problem you have is, if you don't manage to keep the water clean then the fish will likely get ill again. If you do manage to keep the water clean, then odds are your minnows will be eaten by the goldfish (they'll have nowhere to hide in 64 litres!), and your goldfish will get much too big for the tank. Does your mum realise how big goldfish get?

The top pic here is of a freshly bought blackmoor (so the same size as the ones you see in the shops), next to my 4 year old blackmoor (his colour has faded over time, he did used to be black!).

The second pic is him next to my hand; his body is the size of my palm. It's also worth pointing out that orandas grow even bigger than blackmoors.




My fish are in a 500 litre tank, which will be fully stocked with about 6 fish in there. That's not me saying look at me and my big tank, that's me trying to give you some ammo to convince your mum to either take the fish back or get you a bigger tank! 

Good luck with it, you've done really well so far, getting your oranda through the finrot, and it sounds like you really care about your fish, which is great


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## The Dunn

magpie said:


> Unfortunately, with so many fish in such a small tank, this doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm afraid you're going to have a really, REALLY hard time trying to keep your water parameters non-toxic to the fish  And your oranda really needs perfect water quality in order to grow that tail back.
> 
> To be honest, your 64 litre tank is only really suitable for the minnows and no other fish. For the goldfish and the loach you ideally need around 150-200 litres, and that's assuming you keep the loach as a singleton (though Naomi has rightly said, they should really be in a group). Is there no way you can convince your mum to take some of the fish back?
> 
> The problem you have is, if you don't manage to keep the water clean then the fish will likely get ill again. If you do manage to keep the water clean, then odds are your minnows will be eaten by the goldfish (they'll have nowhere to hide in 64 litres!), and your goldfish will get much too big for the tank. Does your mum realise how big goldfish get?
> 
> The top pic here is of a freshly bought blackmoor (so the same size as the ones you see in the shops), next to my 4 year old blackmoor (his colour has faded over time, he did used to be black!).
> 
> The second pic is him next to my hand; his body is the size of my palm. It's also worth pointing out that orandas grow even bigger than blackmoors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My fish are in a 500 litre tank, which will be fully stocked with about 6 fish in there. That's not me saying look at me and my big tank, that's me trying to give you some ammo to convince your mum to either take the fish back or get you a bigger tank!
> 
> Good luck with it, you've done really well so far, getting your oranda through the finrot, and it sounds like you really care about your fish, which is great


Oh dear, yeah I realise my tank is overstocked :/ is there anything else I can do apart from regular water changes to improve water quality and help his tail grow back? last thing I woud want would for him to get ill again. There is no way of convincing my mum to rehome fish or take them back to the pet store. She's pretty stubborn, knows full well how huge goldfish can get BUT thinks fish only grow as big as their tank and adapt to tank size which I know is not right to go by because small tank will stunt growth of fish. For this reason she thinks its fine to keep the remaining fish in the tiny tank :/ she just won't listen to me or my sister (who is a 4th year vet student). Thinks her colleagues at pets at home know better with such tales as "I kept a goldfish in a small bowl and it lived for over 5 years so your fish won't need a big tank" I had to buy the 64ltr tank as an upgrade and it was the biggest tank I could find in store at short notice. I will buy a bigger tank in the future when I've saved enough as I'm guessing the BIG tanks will be bloody expensive! How big will I need to go for X2 fancy goldfish X6 minnows and X2 loach if I get him a little friend? anyway I will need to pay for it, my mum will refuse even though the fish were her christmas/birthday present to me. The only reason I brought her up is because there are still some fish at my mum's home in an inadequate tank. Out of interest, roughly how long will it take for my goldfish to reach the size of your black (now orange) moor? and will the goldfish definetly eat my minnows? is there nothing I could do/feed them to prevent them from eventually doing that - my fancy goldfish are really small at the moment but will they do that when they get bigger? By the way, your fish look beautiful! I hope one day mine can look as big and healthy as your black moor


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## NaomiM

Are you now using Seachem Prime as your water conditioner? This will help to detoxify the ammonia, but not as a substitute for water changes - with levels that high, you really should be doing large water changes twice a day. And add enough Prime each time for the whole volume of the tank (not just the new water), to let it get to work on the ammonia.

As Magpie said, the best solution re the minnows is to have them seperate from the goldfish. Have a look on ebay, gumtree etc for secondhand tanks that are 150 litres or more - you can get them fairly inexpensive second hand, and may even be able to ask for a mature media squeeze with it if the seller has another tank! Then do a fishless cycle on the new tank, and move the goldfish and loach over.

You could keep the 64l running with the minnows, and add some more - they come in a gold variety as well, which are gorgeous little fish  Or add a heater and have it as a temperate tank, which means there's a few other species you could put with them 

Re your mum's fish, sadly this seems to be the general stance at [email protected] and some other aquatic shops - when I was starting out, not long ago, I was sold 2 goldfish for a 14l tank, and told to let it stand for 2 days then stick them in :mad2:  Sadly they both died despite my best efforts and an upgrade to a 70l, but I've been doing loads of research since then and learnt lots!

One thing that you can point out to her is that a goldfish living to the age of 5 is like a human living to the age of 20 - it's no age for them really, as a properly cared-for goldfish can live 20 years or more! My mum said much the same thing when I upgraded to a 70l to try to save my goldfish, but now she's jealous of my setup!


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## magpie

It's highly likely that the minnows will get eaten eventually, once the goldfish are big enough to get them in their mouths! I learnt this the hard way  I had minnows in with my goldfish when they were small and thought it would be fine because the goldfish seemed so slow in comparison to the minnows, I thought they'd never catch them. And then one day the minnows started disappearing...

If you can't get a bigger tank, what you can do instead is get a plastic storage box instead and split the fish between the tank and the box. You can get an 84 litre one for £15 here: Really Useful 84 Litre Stacking Storage Box - Clear - Staples and they do other sizes too. Obviously you'd have to get another filter for it, but it would make things easier for you as a temporary solution.

As for how fast the goldfish will grow, that depends on how clean the water is really, as they will be stunted by poor water quality. The pictures I posted above are of Salem, who is about 4 years old, and this one is him at about 2 years old as a comparison, if that helps:


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## Tropical Fish Delivered

Hi, although very hard to tell from the pic i would say it is fin rot which is usually triggered by stress and poor water quality. I have had little success at treating this in the past to be honest and my best results have come from using salt. 

The problem is if you re-home the fish in another aquarium it is likely to stress him/her more and will probably kill. I personally would find the source of the problem (test all your parameters with a GOOD test kit) and correct ,there is a chance that the minnows are causing a problem via fin nipping but you will most likely find that it is a toxin in the water.

Remember every time you introduce new fish the tank will have to cycle to be able to convert the extra toxins , this takes time and your newly introduced already stressed fish will have to endure this which is most likely what has happened. It is possible that you are getting no readings for Ammonia and Nitrite because the tank has cycled however the damage has already been done. Good Luck


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Are you now using Seachem Prime as your water conditioner? This will help to detoxify the ammonia, but not as a substitute for water changes - with levels that high, you really should be doing large water changes twice a day. And add enough Prime each time for the whole volume of the tank (not just the new water), to let it get to work on the ammonia.
> 
> As Magpie said, the best solution re the minnows is to have them seperate from the goldfish. Have a look on ebay, gumtree etc for secondhand tanks that are 150 litres or more - you can get them fairly inexpensive second hand, and may even be able to ask for a mature media squeeze with it if the seller has another tank! Then do a fishless cycle on the new tank, and move the goldfish and loach over.
> 
> You could keep the 64l running with the minnows, and add some more - they come in a gold variety as well, which are gorgeous little fish  Or add a heater and have it as a temperate tank, which means there's a few other species you could put with them
> 
> Re your mum's fish, sadly this seems to be the general stance at [email protected] and some other aquatic shops - when I was starting out, not long ago, I was sold 2 goldfish for a 14l tank, and told to let it stand for 2 days then stick them in :mad2:  Sadly they both died despite my best efforts and an upgrade to a 70l, but I've been doing loads of research since then and learnt lots!
> 
> One thing that you can point out to her is that a goldfish living to the age of 5 is like a human living to the age of 20 - it's no age for them really, as a properly cared-for goldfish can live 20 years or more! My mum said much the same thing when I upgraded to a 70l to try to save my goldfish, but now she's jealous of my setup!


I actually ordered the seachem prime but it got lost in the post and the company are going to send out a replacement. It's a bit of a problem actually, I did a water change on Sunday and actually ended up using the last of my tap water treatment which I didn't realise at the time :/ I'll only beable to get the seachem prime by the weekend. I'll need to do water changes before then. Is it enough to leave tap water for a while or does there need to be tap water treatment added? the only choice I have is that or no water changes until I get seachem prime but I'm not sure if tap water would be safe even if it was left for a day or 2? I'll have a browse for tanks online and I'll go to my nearest aquarist and see what they have on offer when I've got time but it'll probably be a good while until I can afford a bigger tank. Just out of curiosity does anyone know how much space my 6 minnows would need by themselves? Ah my mum has a tropical fish tank which is stocked ok but for some reason she doesn't see goldfish as needing that kind of space which I think is unfair. [email protected] are terrible, when I got my 64l tank for my fish at the time they were shocked that I was getting a bigger tank - they said that my fish would be "spoilt" and it wasn't needed because my goldfish was so small. They said my tiny tank was good enough and the staff were laughing at me for getting a bigger tank for my little oranda. They said I should fill it up with minnows and other fish otherwise it would look empty! as you now know my mum bought more fish - I thought the loach and a couple of minnows would be ok but my mum continued buying fish! She even bought freshwater shrimp or something (which I knew was wrong in the first place as my goldfish would eat them) [email protected] sold her live plants and didn't realise that because the plant had a copper in it's base that would kill off the shrimp, doh! I think the reason she bought so many was because she was expecting some fish to die when being introduced to a new tank, although this time with my tank all the fish survived and are doing ok! My oranda got finrot before most of the other fish were added and I think it was mainly because the tank was brand new going through a fish in cycle.


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## NaomiM

Can you get a small bottle of whatever water conditioner your local shop sells, just to use while waiting for the Prime to arrive? Or borrow some from your mum (I'm assuming she uses a dechlorinator)?

If your tap water contains chloramine, that won't be destroyed by leaving it out. If it only contains chlorine, apparently leaving it out for 24 hours should let it evaporate, though I've never tried it myself and not sure I'd want to take the risk if I could avoid it! If you go on your local water board's website and type in your postcode, it should tell you whether your tap water contains chloramine or chlorine.

With regard to the minnows, I think about 40l would be minimum, though they're active fish and like to have room to swim, so a long rather than deep tank would be best. They also look most striking, and show off the most interesting behaviour, in larger schools


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Can you get a small bottle of whatever water conditioner your local shop sells, just to use while waiting for the Prime to arrive? Or borrow some from your mum (I'm assuming she uses a dechlorinator)?
> 
> If your tap water contains chloramine, that won't be destroyed by leaving it out. If it only contains chlorine, apparently leaving it out for 24 hours should let it evaporate, though I've never tried it myself and not sure I'd want to take the risk if I could avoid it! If you go on your local water board's website and type in your postcode, it should tell you whether your tap water contains chloramine or chlorine.
> 
> With regard to the minnows, I think about 40l would be minimum, though they're active fish and like to have room to swim, so a long rather than deep tank would be best. They also look most striking, and show off the most interesting behaviour, in larger schools


I've had a look on the internet and I'm pretty sure my tap water contains chloramine :/ so I'm guessing leaving water out just won't do it. I could try and get to my local aquarist but it won't be until Thursday probably because I'll be busy all of tomorrow and Wednesday. If there was a place closer then I might beable to pick up some dechlorinator -but I have no idea where else I'd get it, I thought pet shops were the only ones to sell such products? is that right? no point in asking my mum because she lives over an hour away. Well so far I've got 6 minnows in my 64l tank and 3 more in the tiny tank at home so I guess when I get a bigger tank they can live in the 64l one. I actually have the golden variety of white cloud minnow and they are really pretty and fascinating to watch


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## The Dunn

Tropical Fish Delivered said:


> Hi, although very hard to tell from the pic i would say it is fin rot which is usually triggered by stress and poor water quality. I have had little success at treating this in the past to be honest and my best results have come from using salt.
> 
> The problem is if you re-home the fish in another aquarium it is likely to stress him/her more and will probably kill. I personally would find the source of the problem (test all your parameters with a GOOD test kit) and correct ,there is a chance that the minnows are causing a problem via fin nipping but you will most likely find that it is a toxin in the water.
> 
> Remember every time you introduce new fish the tank will have to cycle to be able to convert the extra toxins , this takes time and your newly introduced already stressed fish will have to endure this which is most likely what has happened. It is possible that you are getting no readings for Ammonia and Nitrite because the tank has cycled however the damage has already been done. Good Luck


Yeah my oranda did have fin rot, (it wasn't the minnows) and I treated him with medication, seems to have recovered from the worst of it now and just needs to grow the rest of his tail back. I've established that the bruised type markings are signs of him healing - most likely from poor water quality and stress (finrot) and he's now recovering. I knew he was stressed out when he moved tank but I think one of the main problems was that it was a brand new tank that hadn't been cycled before he was added :/ so yeah he was quite poorly! I'm doing regular water changes and have the API freshwater master test kit to test the water quality. I think keeping the water quality as good as I can will give him the best chances of growing his tail back. Although
I don't know if he will ever fully grow it back. At the moment he looks happy, if the finrot comes back I have the medication. As mentioned in my post before my ammonia leves did test quite high but I think that's the tank cycling and because my tank is overstocked at the moment. The fish intorduced later settled in nicely, look healthy and happy, no signs of stress.


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## NaomiM

:mellow: Is there no way at all you could get hold of some dechlorinator sooner than that? No aquatic/pet shop that you can pop in to on the way to/from work or whatever you're doing? Your ammonia levels are going to spike pretty quickly without the water changes, and that's bad news for all your fish, but particularly the poorly oranda...


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> :mellow: Is there no way at all you could get hold of some dechlorinator sooner than that? No aquatic/pet shop that you can pop in to on the way to/from work or whatever you're doing? Your ammonia levels are going to spike pretty quickly without the water changes, and that's bad news for all your fish, but particularly the poorly oranda...


Thankfully I found out there was a pet store closer to me and managed to get hold of some tapsafe in the nick of time. I literally arrived at 6 just as they were closing! so I can clean out my fish tank -just because I brought this up. was wondering, I usually leave my water overnight to allow the temp to adjust - how long would you normally leave it? ( cold water out the tap) I have to be out tomorrow from 8am so was just wondering if I ran my water now and left it for a couple hours with the treatment added do you think it would be ok? only reason I'm saying this is because I don't think I'd have time to do it until tomorrow night otherwise


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## NaomiM

Yay, that's good news :thumbsup:

I have a tropical tank rather than coldwater, so I mix hot and cold water to get the right temp.

Could you check temps with a thermometer before adding the new water? Or if that's not possible, just do a finger-dip test. If you have a combi boiler, it's safe to add a little water from the hot tap to bring it up to temp if necessary. Or if you have a hot water tank rather than a combi, don't add hot water from the tap, but you could add a little boiling water from the kettle.

It should ideally be within 1 degree C of the tank water.

The water conditioner works within minutes - just give it a swirl around to make sure it's well mixed in


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## The Dunn

NaomiM said:


> Yay, that's good news :thumbsup:
> 
> I have a tropical tank rather than coldwater, so I mix hot and cold water to get the right temp.
> 
> Could you check temps with a thermometer before adding the new water? Or if that's not possible, just do a finger-dip test. If you have a combi boiler, it's safe to add a little water from the hot tap to bring it up to temp if necessary. Or if you have a hot water tank rather than a combi, don't add hot water from the tap, but you could add a little boiling water from the kettle.
> 
> It should ideally be within 1 degree C of the tank water.
> 
> The water conditioner works within minutes - just give it a swirl around to make sure it's well mixed in


Thanks, I don't seem to have a thermometer in my flat so I'll get one when I'm away at the weekend to bring back. For now I'm just leaving the water ovenight to reach room temp. Gonna do another water change before I leave them on Friday for about 2 days. I've got 2 questions. First one is if I'm leaving my fish over the weekend, should I get someone to feed them each of the days or would it be ok for them 2 go 2 days without food? 2nd question is concerning something that happened last night, a power cut! 2 of them to be precise, thankfully both lasted around 30 mins each but it got me thinking what would I do in the event of a longer power cut with the filter not running? and the water not being agitated?


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## The Dunn

Hey everyone, haven't been on here for ages so thought I'd just do a wee update of my fish situation. First of all, my fish are looking happy and all look to be in good health  my red cap oranda ( who I've now named Jean Valjean after the les mis character lol) is doing better: his dark marks have faded over time and he's going back to his original colouring. His tail has also grown a bit more, although it's a bit one sided so I think the finrot damaged one side of his tail more than the other, still hopeful that it'll grow more! As for cycling my tank, I'm using seachem prime as my water conditioner and still testing my water with the API freshwater master testkit and the water quality is staying better for longer, so I think the tank is finally cycled or at least getting there. Currently not changed the water in a week and the test shows the ammonia levels to be 0ppm. When would I know to change tank water if not indicated by the water test kit? what is the usual time between water changes for a cycled tank? Or should I just rely purely on the test kit results? Also just out of precaution I was wondering if anyone could answer my question from my last post? what to do in the event of a power cut (a longer one) in which the electricity supply to the filter would be cut off and the water not being agitated? Thanks


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## NaomiM

Thanks for the update, that's good news  If your ammonia and nitrite are constantly reading 0, your tank is cycled  which means you only need to do a weekly water change of around 25%, using a gravel syphon to hoover up the waste from the bottom.

If you're in an area that's prone to long power cuts, you could invest in a battery-powered pump that you put next to the filter to keep water flowing over the media. But if the power's only out for an hour or two, they should be fine - just check the ammonia and nitrite levels once the power comes back on, and water change if necessary.


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