# Potential Owners and Breeders: Titled Parent



## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I would be curious to know if titles matter (and how much it matters) when it comes to kittens? 

For me, it's just something useful as I would know that the stud (in my case) fits the breed standard enough. My queen's first mating was with an International Champion (who was great and also had a kind, knowledgable owner) and I am seriously considering a Great European Champion (he is beautiful! gorgeous gorgeous cheeks) now. 

However, they do cost quite a bit more and I just wonder if potential owners would be willing to pay more or if potential owners don't really give a rat's a*se. Granted, it's not a HUGE amount more but with my first litter, I had a loss of well over 700 euros and that was with a larger than average litter and I'd like to try and decrease my costs a bit, especially as I want to neuter the kittens before they leave the nest too (no luck finding a vet who will do so yet though). 

So, are titles all that important?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

I think it depends on the buyer. Lets face is 90% of the kittens we breed go to pet homes when parentage is not really a priority, which to be honest as long as it is the right home is perfect, a lazy pampered life is what any cats wants... I looked at a lot of litters last year (BSH's) and was very concerned about how fine the breed are becoming in general, queens seem to be getting smaller and slimmer in build so this year colour is completely off my radar and i am going to concentrate on type which is something we all need to look at within our breeding cats from time to time. champion status does give some indication that the stud is typey, but so are many other studs out there I think the right stud for what you are looking to produce within your kittens is more important.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

For me titles and showing are important because it means my cats are meeting the standard and judged on a national level.

Likewise with any studs that I use.

However, my kittens are not priced on the parents titles or imported parents. I have one girl who hated showing as an adult so is untitled, her kittens are no less valuable than my double grand champion girls kittens. 

Doesn't really matter to me what pet owners think, I breed to improve the breed, any titles gained benefit me and my program.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I breed to improve the breed


So do I and by doing so my way it can mean my kittens are not eligible for the show bench. Pet buyers and breeders alike seem to want them though. They are delighted that I'm prepared to introduce new blood and work with new lines to 'improve' the gene pool.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Lucy1012 said:


> I looked at a lot of litters last year (BSH's) and was very concerned about how fine the breed are becoming in general, queens seem to be getting smaller and slimmer in build


I wonder if this is because officially any female cat can be bred. Now, I think GCCF has an active/unactive register but I am with an FIFE organisation and officially, breeding any female queen cannot be forbidden by the organisation (unless the queen has health issues). If the rogue owners want to register and breed with a feline organisation, they still can! You can however, have a private contract stating that breeding is not allowed but that's up to you to find out (if the kitten owner is breeding) and enforce.

Whilst all my new owners are very nice and I think they will follow the contract, I do worry sometimes, thinking what I'd do and how far I'd go which is why I'm hoping to early neuter future litters.

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Back to the topic, I agree about who the potential owners are etc. All my kittens from my previous litter were sold as pets so a champion daddy seems to be irrelevant. However, as I was once a potential owner, I did only click links of nests with at least one titled parent. The British Shorthair kitten list is long so it's a helpful way to weed out some nests.

Perhaps it's one of those things where people won't pay extra money for but it makes it easier to find homes for kittens. All my previous kittens found homes very quickly. I still see ads of 5-10 month old kittens looking for homes. Maybe it's the economy?

I was looking for a fawn stud for my queen (as she carries cinnamon as well) but there is only one with the right blood group and he doesn't have a title either. That's alright though as the blue guy I stumbled across yesterday is very, very, very typey (most of all, I fell in love with his cheeks hehe).

Anyway, lets assume for this post that all studs/queens fit the breed profile enough because of course, if one picks a skinny male with fluffy fur, it's just irresponsible (if it's a British Shorthair).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

My friend I brought Minnie & Max from is convinced that titled parents - or a titled sire - impressed potential slaves and looks good on the pedigree. When I went to look at Max (wasn't planning getting Minnie as well) I looked at him, and he was well-grown, cute, looked like a potential show neuter, was cute, didn't look anything like my first black cat, was cute, was cute, was cute... 

BTW his eye colour never developed properly - he has yellow instead of green. But he's still cute!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

With Siamese I am finding more and more people who are asking if my kittens are the older style rather than the modern style which seem to do so well on the show bench. I use an Imp. Grand Champion stud but I think all the matters to most of my buyers is the temperament and looks of the kitten - they aren't that interested in titles.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't think anyone other than a breeder would pay more to have titled parents or grandparents - I find when explaining the pedigree and why some names are in red they are quite surprised (pleasantly so) but wouldn't pay more for it. A breeder MIGHT pay more if you have the blood lines they want.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I think there are some owners that care. I believe the more successful (more as in much more) prefixes in my breed are in high demand & can charge a little bit more so mum & dad can say "oh I have a <insert famous prefix> kitten!!".

I know from my own experience, owners do care & it isn't irrelevant and is sort of a tick box in being happy with the kitten/breeder. We used a stud (champion) who had been featured as part of a breed feature in a national cat magazine so it was nice & really impressed owners that I could give them that as a keepsake with their kitten. They did seem very happy that both mum & dad were champions.

On a personal level, a title in general doesn't impress me as I know the types I like & they could be a UK IMP GR CH & I wouldn't go there if I didn't like the type. But given a choice of types I liked, a bigger title would sway me....


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

When I bought Claude I had no idea about lineage and show winning parents etc, I just went to the GCCF breeder I met who seemed to love what they do the most. It was one of my sisters (who already had a BSH) who went through his Pedigree papers and pointed out to me that he was of 'good stock' (nothing breathtaking but quite good). In fact when we got him at five months he came with a First Open rosette that he had won from a cat show - it meant nothing to me at the time and now decorates my daughters bedroom . 

With Nancy I still wasn't overly interested in showing and although her breeder shows occasionally, her main aim is to reduce inbreeding and improve the lines as much as she can, I chose her because she has been doing it for 30 years and was really straight talking. 

But now that I am interested in showing and would like a show cat I have been looking at the parent titles, who is linked to who on the websites and who's prefix shows up a lot on generational pedigrees. As a buyer, when buying a potential show kitten we are buying exactly that - potential, there is no guarantee that Ferdi the Fabulous will turn out wonderfully, I know an experienced breeder would be able to tell to a certain extent, but in a young kitten some of it is luck of the draw. How much over the pet price do you think is reasonable to pay when you are paying for a possibility? I have had some quite varying answers from people.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Yes, always seems like a gamble.

Here, kittens sold as breeding cats are more expensive- probably between 500-1100 euros (the pet price is 500-600 euro). I would think showcats go for about the same price as breeding cats. It's always a bit of a gray area because what happens if the 'breeding' kitten ends up not fulfilling the breed standard enough to breed? Does the breeder return the premium? Likewise with show cats... 

Luxurious problems for me since I have no breeding kittens and no show cats but certainly interesting to think of One day....


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Show prices shouldn't be much more than a pet price seeing as not people want to show & the new owner is paying to promote the breeder's prefix if s/he is a good example of the breed. I'd say £50-100 AT MOST above pet price. 

I sold my show potential kitten for pet price because show entries aren't cheap as it is!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I don't charge any more for a show cat.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Show neuters are the same as pet price with many breeders

Breeding cats generally 2-3 times the price of a pet over here


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Show neuters are only 150-ish here, if it's even put up for adoption. 

spotty cats: the 2nd kitten from the right is just super adorable!!


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

spid said:


> I don't charge any more for a show cat.


Nor me. I do charge more for breeding cats however partly because I feel I am working with very good and rare bloodlines and also because I want people to be committed rather than get in cheap and try to make a fortune. I do not charge an excessive price.....

Softee is the most highly titled Selkirk Rex Longhair in the UK but his pet and show kittens go for the average 'market' rate.

I would pay more for a breeding cat with the lines I wanted but prob not a show cat. Whilkst I don't find pet buyers desire a highly titled parent I have found a demand for pet kittens from Softee due to the fact he passes on his divine temperament and he himself is amazingly eyecatching


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

INdeed he is - I love him! :001_wub: :001_wub:


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## munchkinpie (Oct 20, 2011)

I would pay, more example I would love a cat from a certain breeder, but her cats are very much in demand. I'm lucky enough to be excepted and on a waiting list, her prices are higher but her cats are amazing.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I would only buy kittens in from certain preferred breeders but my reasons have nothing to do with how their cats do on the bench. I know great breeders with clean houses and healthy cats/kittens who I'd go to in an instant. I know breeders who do exceptionally well on the bench and having seen their homes I wouldn't buy a stuffed toy from them.


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

True Havoc ...... One should weigh up the individual breeders on all factors.

Not in my breed bu another I know one prefix highly sought for show but there are real health issues in the line with cats dropping dead as young adults iwht regularity. I'd never to an unhealthy line just to get potentially a few brief months of show wins! Heartbreaking and IMHO unethical to breed unhealthy lines just for the 'flash'


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

All our kittens are sold on the non active register at the same price whether they are to show or for pets,on the rare occasion we sell on the active for breeding we charge a little bit more but we only let them go for breeding if we know or know of the breeder and they can assure us they are the right person for a girl to breed, all our boys are non active.

Most of our customers haven't a clue what the pedigree papers mean and are surprised when we have explained and they see all the ch, gr ch etc in their pedigrees, others let it go in one ear and out of the other and still don't really seem bothered, they are just happy with the kitten.

As a breeder a good pedigree with lots of titles is important to me.

Havoc I have been to breeders like that too, I went to one years ago, well before I bred myself for a pet and I came out feeling very nauseous and faint and had to stop at the services and was very ill.

My sister and her husband visited today and actually remarked on not being able to smell the cats or even see a cat hair on the furnishings etc. We are extremely house-proud probably to the point of being obsessive.lol.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

I think it is a good indicator but untitled studs should not be ruled out of breeding programmes. I have IMO, a VERY typey boy who carries CP so not allowed on the GCCF bench :-(


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

sister and her husband visited today and actually remarked on not being able to smell the cats or even see a cat hair on the furnishings etc. We are extremely house-proud probably to the point of being obsessive.lol.[/QUOTE said:


> please tell me how you manage that one, hair and fur fine, litter trays not so much....


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Lucy1012 said:


> please tell me how you manage that one, hair and fur fine


likely the breed, if Orientals/Siamese are anything like my breed they hardly shed.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

our prob is trays and finding a good litter... we love wood pellets, but have a queen that would sooner poop under the bed than in that, and find no other retain the urine smell. The boys are going back out if this weather continues so that will help/


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think it is a good indicator but untitled studs should not be ruled out of breeding programmes


So true. It's also very worrying when you see a titled stud over represented in a breed. I can think of one name which cropped up again and again and again on pedigrees simply because he'd been shown a lot. Working "for the good of a breed" does not always mean following the herd. I can see why novice breeders would want the reassurance but there surely comes a point where a breeder should be able to trust their own judgement gained from experience.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Lucy: I find that silicate litter (Tigerino etc.) is quite good (smells less) but it's probably less enviromentally friendly than wood pellets.


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## chloeM (Jan 5, 2013)

I started a thread a few days ago on what to do as a breeder who might have HCM in one of my queen's lines. The cats who are said to be affected are european/world/supreme champions. Beautiful cats but with iffy backgrounds and since they did so well in shows and have pretty titles, I am sure they must have fathered/mothered a lot more kittens than an untitled stud. What I am most angry about is the non-existant help from feline organisations. You'd expect them to at least inform you if you request for information (if it concerns health) but none will deny nor confirm anything; only if the cattery is registered or not. I know that if you dig deep enough, you'll find that many cats will have HCM/PKD but it'd be nice if we could have an open register so that we can make the right decisions.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Silica litter is dangerous. I wouldn't use it, especially with kittens.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

What would you recommend, carly? 

I am looking into World's Best but it's really expensive.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I use WB myself and love it. However, it's messy for little kittens with long hair when they roll in it, as they pick loads up in their coats. That being said though, they respond to it really well as it's nice and soft for bubba paws to dig in. I also use Golden Pine from Zooplus. I find it clumps well, covers smells amazingly but tracks like crazy. Others don't rate it but I don't know why as I've never had a problem. Other than the tracking issue, it's as good as WB, maybe even better.

Oko and Nature Gold are always recommended on here, but I find that the clumps are sloppy and don't stick together very well. I end up having to do a full tray change within days or a week, and for me, that's not acceptable given the price of it. However, the pellets are good for stopping playing kittens kicking the litter too far, and I did buy a small bag for my last litter at one point.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

carly87 said:


> Golden Pine from Zooplus. I find it clumps well


Carly, the Golden Pine clumps? Is it not like the usual wood pellets then that don't clump?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

GP is very fine - it does clump well to begin with - but I found it wasn't good after a week and it tracked really really badly.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spid said:


> GP is very fine - it does clump well to begin with - but I found it wasn't good after a week and it tracked really really badly.


Ah, okay, thanks Spid. I'm SO fed up with Oko. Great in the tray, yes... when it *stays* in the tray :/


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

GP does track, but is easily contained with a good litter mat. I've had no problems with it not clumping after a week. In fact, I was gutted to through out perfectly good litter after 2 weeks (I never let a tray sit longer) when I felt it could have been used for the same length of time again! Really have never had any problems with this litter at all.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

You are lucky Carly - I ended up putting a huge 2 metre square of vet bed in front of the trays and it still walked beyond the mats _ I couldn't cope with it.


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## Treaclesmum (Sep 26, 2011)

I tried Oko Plus but as Carly says, the clumps were soggy and the tracking awful!! So now I'm back on Catsan Woodchip which looks exactly the same as Oko, but doesn't clump (which I actually prefer! At least it stays dry and doesn't stick when I change the trays!!) It still tracks alot though, so I'd love to find a woodchip one that doesn't track.


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I might just give World's Best a try then! I used wooden litter for cats when the kittens were tiny but it was awful. I pretty much had to change the litterbox everyday (5 kittens). Don't remember the brand but it was cheap- 10 euros for 20 litres or so

According to World's Best site, a 7.5kg bag will last 3 cats 25 days. This means 30 euros per month for 3 cats just on cat litter. Is it as good as the site states or do you find that you have to change the litter more often?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

WB from what i can gather is chick crumb? I am not too bothered about tracking as i have lino thoughout the downstairs, 3 dogs and 3 kids i gave in with carpet, but i have the worlds most senstive nose.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

If WB IS chick crumb then it would be an awful lot cheaper to buy chick crumbs - about £8 a 20kg bag at your local farm shop. Have a research. I used to use chick crumb a lot but while it clumps and doesn't track too much it can get a bit smelly AND go mouldy!


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Just ordered a bag off Zooplus and will see if it's any good with odour control. Tigerino is fantastic and I am not convinced that it's really that harmful but happy to minimize potential dangers by using plant-based litter


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

Started using World's Cat's Best since last weekend and it hasn't been working very well. The biggest issues are:

i) Cats leave the toilet with corn litter socks, which they lick etc. ergo making my grain-free diet pointless 

ii) The smell. It's definitely inferior compared to Tigerino silicate litter. 

Since studies have not shown silicate litter to be anymore dangerous, I'm considering going back to silicate.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

That's got to be your choice, but bearing in mind that the silica dust has been strongly linked to the formation of lung cancer in humans, I know what mine would be.


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