# Any regrets?



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I am not starting this thread to create a falling out but out of interest.

Having heard a mix of views, listened to the news and read this link below if anyone now regrets their vote either way?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36641390

I'd be genuinely interested in your reasons.

*I urge all contributors to respect each other.*


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

Yes, I will be very honest, I voted leave and regret it because I had no idea (possibly naively) that it would cause this horrid outburst of racial hatred  it's just horrible


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Regrets I have a few ....... but seriously voting to leave isn't one of them. I regret the fallout it has caused in terms of the total chaos of government. I can only assume as usual politicians were so arrogant they seriously thought it wouldn't happen so all disappeared down their respective holes when it did (the leave leaders included) to try and come up with a plan for how to get out of it. I also regret the way its divided friends/families/groups probably even more so than the general election did although the hate against Tory voters did go on for several weeks. So whilst I don't regret voting to leave I hope there is a way forward that might be possible to bring people back together again. However somewhere along the line we do have to learn to respect other peoples opinions gracefully and without all this hatred but I just don't see how that will happen which is sad  especially given we could be facing another election in the not too distant future.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I've voted but not commenting as the other threads are keeping me busy .


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Thank you both for your honesty.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I voted remain and my resolve in this has only strengthened.

It's interesting even someone who pushed it as much as Kelvin Mckenzie now regrets his leave vote.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't regret voting leave but it pains me to hear that some people only voted leave as they didn't think we would actually leave.

I am also very disgusted at the racist backlash to a lot of people it seems. I read a story this morning about a man who is having to walk around with his passport to prove he is british - how terrible that he feels the need to do this.

I live in Peterborough currently and a lot of polish people live here, in my cul-de-sac alone there are more 'foreign' people as opposed to British but that doesn't bother me in the slightly. If anything, a lot of the jobless..useless.. loud.. rude.. people that I sometimes meet around where I live are British !!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm feeling the same as the above posters, I voted to Leave, but am greatly upset by these racist thugs who now think they have over half the country supporting them. They will never have my support to bully and abuse people's from other countries.
I'm also bothered that those who voted to Remain appear to be saying that the Leave voters are racist, stupid and shouldn't have been allowed to vote in the first place. That above all else will make me continue to vote for Leave IF there is another referendum.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I voted remain and stand by my vote. 

I feel terribly upset for people who cast their vote without knowing the full argument for both sides. ( whether they voted leave or remain ) 
I feel terribly upset for those people being tarred with the same brush as racists and bigots because of their leave vote too


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Thanks again, I have to go back to that dull thing called work but hope that the thread continues in the same convivial way


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I voted remain. My only regret is that there doesn't actually seem to be a clear plan of action to support the out result. It appears that they want all the benefits of being 'in', but with control over the laws implemented.


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## chissy 15 (Mar 13, 2013)

I stand by my decision to vote leave but am annoyed at our politicians for not being more prepared for this. I also don't like all the racist hatred that's happening, did not foresee that happening


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

My regret is the way analysts have shown a divide between 'old 'and 'young ' as Cheekyscrip revealed. Also different parts of the Uk are resentful of the way the voting went. I deplore the hatred , class differences ,ageism and racism that the results have incited and sincerely hope we can find a way to get over this.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I voted to remain and I stand by it. I felt we would be better off in and the utter shambles that has followed the leave result has done nothing to dissuade me of that. I feel that Wales in particular has shot itself in the foot (I'm quite disappointed in my country) and I am very worried about the future. Boris for PM? I'm not fooled by his charming eccentric act. Then there's the vicious Labour backstabbing...
Of the course the sky isn't falling but what with Trump in the US as well these are worrying times.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I went with the consensus of experts & voted to remain. And now we're out, I am absolutely positive I did the right thing. No regrets here.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I should before I go back to work, confirm that I voted remain and proud to do so. That feeling hasn't changed and I would do so again on the basis of post vote information.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nope


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Siskin said:


> I'm feeling the same as the above posters, I voted to Leave, but am greatly upset by these racist thugs who now think they have over half the country supporting them. They will never have my support to bully and abuse people's from other countries.
> I'm also bothered that those who voted to Remain appear to be saying that the Leave voters are racist, stupid and shouldn't have been allowed to vote in the first place. *That above all else will make me continue to vote for Leave IF there is another referendum.*




So if the country was failing and people will be much worse off, you would still vote leave to show the remain voters who have said those things?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

chissy 15 said:


> I stand by my decision to vote leave but am annoyed at our politicians for not being more prepared for this. I also don't like all the racist hatred that's happening, did not foresee that happening


Sadly I did. A lot of the people I saw, both on the tv and in the public, were saying we need to vote leave 'to get them out'. I felt there would be a movement that way should leave win and has been evidenced by the rise in racial abuse being reported.


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## AnimalzRock (Jul 2, 2014)

Hanwombat said:


> I don't regret voting leave but it pains me to hear that some people only voted leave as they didn't think we would actually leave.


Might be being a bit dim here but I really don't understand this. Why would you vote to leave only because you didn't think it would happen?

I abstained from voting because I really couldn't decide which way to vote, based on all the scaremongering and lies we were being bombarded with. Now that it has been decided we will leave, I am happy to go with it and see what happens. I am sure there will be good things and bad about leaving, but then that would have been no different if we had remained.

FWIW, I understand the government could still keep us IN - although that would cause uproar and be political suicide.

Saw a bloke being interviewed on tv the other night who they obviously picked because he was so awful. He was covered in tattoos (nothing against tattoos but these were deliberately gross) and couldn't string a sentence together in his own language. He just kept spouting rubbish like "we can take back our country". Made me despair.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

AnimalzRock said:


> Saw a bloke being interviewed on tv the other night who they obviously picked because he was so awful. He was covered in tattoos (nothing against tattoos but these were deliberately gross) and couldn't string a sentence together in his own language. He just kept spouting rubbish like "we can take back our country". Made me despair.


There's been a lot of press spin too, hasn't there?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

AnimalzRock said:


> *Might be being a bit dim here but I really don't understand this. Why would you vote to leave only because you didn't think it would happen?*
> 
> I abstained from voting because I really couldn't decide which way to vote, based on all the scaremongering and lies we were being bombarded with. Now that it has been decided we will leave, I am happy to go with it and see what happens. I am sure there will be good things and bad about leaving, but then that would have been no different if we had remained.
> 
> ...


Because people are morons sadly and I guess they just did it as a 'joke' vote somewhat ? and didn't actually realise that it contributed to the UK leaving the EU when they didn't think it would actually happen.

TBH I fully expected Remain to win, so I myself was shocked that Leave won.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> Because people are morons sadly and I guess they just did it as a 'joke' vote somewhat ? and didn't actually realise that it contributed to the UK leaving the EU when they didn't think it would actually happen.
> 
> TBH I fully expected Remain to win, so I myself was shocked that Leave won.


When I saw and heard of these people doing this, one thought I had was perhaps they did that so they could post they voted leave on social media sites.
Otherwise I have no idea what the joke was and who was 'in' on it as nobody would have known how they voted.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Do Farage's speeches and general actions make a difference to anyone? I haven't linked as they are easily found on the web but thinking of the post Victory 'shots fired' and the EU MEP one today.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I didnt vote as I didnt feel like I properly understood what either option would mean!:Shy Politics really isnt something I get my head around easily.
Kinda glad now that I didnt as the aftermath has left me just as confused as before about wether this is the right or wrong thing.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)




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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Siskin said:


> I'm also bothered that those who voted to Remain appear to be saying that the Leave voters are racist, stupid and shouldn't have been allowed to vote in the first place. That above all else will make me continue to vote for Leave IF there is another referendum.


@Siskin, IF there is another referendum and you vote leave again, you should do it because you still believe it's the best thing for the country, not because you're annoyed at the Remain voters.

Otherwise you WILL be voting for a stupid reason.

I say this with respect.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I voted stay, and thats exactly what we should have done IMO.

This is going to be one hell of a s*it storm........


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## quagga (Jun 11, 2014)

Like most people my age (I'm 20), I voted remain and stand by this.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

I voted remain and I'm happy with my vote, if I had to vote again in the near future I would also vote remain. I based my decision on lots of research, so that isn't going to change. 

I wouldn't change my vote if I was annoyed by the actions of either group, if I did I would be as bad as the people who I found annoying.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

KatieandOliver said:


> Yes, I will be very honest, I voted leave and regret it because I had no idea (possibly naively) that it would cause this horrid outburst of racial hatred  it's just horrible


This basically ^


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I stand by my vote to leave but I think its all being over dramatised by the Labour debacle and Scotland issue. If they were all focusing and planning on what we should be doing next in a positive way, it wouldn't be so messy. If we go into this thinking it will fail, then it will.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Sky is falling.

Or bottom just fell out of my world.

UK foreigner minister just announced: Gibraltar is on their own now 
Means Spain can do their worst. As soon as they sort out their election.


Haven't slept for nights.
It is so surreal. 
Please, offer no condolences.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm a Remain and stand by it so far.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place. I know Mr Cameron promised one, but it could have waited as he had until the end of 2017 to hold it.

Holding such an important referendum during a major football tournament where many usually moderate folk are at their most nationalistic has to be one of the most stupid moves undertaken by a politician.

I voted Remain, and proud of it.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> @Siskin, IF there is another referendum and you vote leave again, you should do it because you still believe it's the best thing for the country, not because you're annoyed at the Remain voters.
> 
> Otherwise you WILL be voting for a stupid reason.
> 
> I say this with respect.


I should have been clearer, it has hardened my resolve. I voted leave because I felt it was the right thing to do for the country, I've just been fuming a bit over so called celebs and their smart Alex remarks of I'm right and your're too stupid to have had the right to vote in the referendum.
If the vote had been the other way round I would have just shrugged my shoulders and accepted it, not spent the next few days whining and complaining and demanding another vote.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

I voted Leave and would do so again.

I find the behaviour of BOTH sides quite abhorrent - the Remainers because they refuse to accept what has been a democratic decision. Had the results been reversed, there is no way Brexit would have been allowed to even contemplate the possibility of another bite at the apple. The Leavers because their gloating attitude is downright embarrassing and very immature. To have accepted the decision with a dignified thanks to those who voted and a heart-felt request to the Remainers for a desire to work together would have been far more productive.

I find the behaviour of the HATE brigade utterly disgraceful and am horrified that they think my vote has given them carte blanche to spout their foul words against other human beings.

Most of all, however, I am ashamed that the country has divided itself in this manner. This was a democratic vote and the behaviour of the Remainers, the Labour Party MP's, and the SNP is unacceptable. These are the people the nation is looking towards to give them leadership and guidance and they are all too busy trying to score points and further their own career paths than to be strong & dignified. They all need a damn good slapping!


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

I voted leave and I have no regrets. 

I would vote leave again.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Siskin said:


> I should have been clearer, it has hardened my resolve. I voted leave because I felt it was the right thing to do for the country, I've just been fuming a bit over so called celebs and their smart Alex remarks of I'm right and your're too stupid to have had the right to vote in the referendum.
> If the vote had been the other way round I would have just shrugged my shoulders and accepted it, not spent the next few days whining and complaining and demanding another vote.


I think the reason it has happened like this is because if remain had have won it wouldn't have made as much difference.

With the leave vote, well, as many have said a lot of turkeys have voted for Christmas. The poor, the disabled, the sick, have all landed themselves in it because funding will be cut, the government will become far right, which is never good for those who are the lowest in society. Had remain won it would be the status quo, much less bad fortune or worry.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I believe everyone was so complacent in thinking that people would vote to stay in and we'd be carrying on as normal on Friday, both in Britain and the EU, this has come as such a shock, nobody knows what to do now.
I'm appalled there is so much racialism raising its ugly head instigated by ignorant people and troublemakers. They certainly don't speak for me.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Just like not all Leave voters are racist bigots, nor are all Remain voters whiny and merely throwing their toys out the pram.

While I'm sure some Leave voters would have shrugged their shoulders and moved on had the result been to Remain, I'm certain many would not have. Anyone passionate about something, either way, will understandably be gutted if the other option prevails.

For the record (and I don't think I said it on here but I did IRL and you'll just have to believe me on this) I was suspicious that there would be a second referendum if the UK voted to Leave. I thought we would end up in negotiations with the EU to try and keep our membership tenable.

I have no idea whether this will now actually happen, nor (you will notice if you have read my post properly) have I given any inkling either way about whether I personally want another referendum, but I'm just pointing out that when I wonder aloud if we will, it is not sour grapes and had already been considered before the fact.

I cannot speak for all Remain voters, nor do I intend to: they can do that themselves, whether their comments are thoughtful or stupid. But do not confuse my genuine concerns over what happens next with an inability to accept democracy.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Charity said:


> I believe everyone was so complacent in thinking that people would vote to stay in and we'd be carrying on as normal on Friday, both in Britain and the EU, this has come as such a shock, nobody knows what to do now..


I thought this earlier but as soon as the Sun backed the Leave campaign I knew they would win it, as they always do from past experience from the 1979 General Election and beyond. When they surprisingly backed Tony Blair's Labour they won too

I had hoped to be proven wrong on this occasion, I wasn't.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I voted to remain and have no regrets about that. I am just sorry that there seems to be such uncertainty now. The whole thing seems to have caused nothing but division and hatred


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2016)

MoggyBaby said:


> I voted Leave and would do so again.
> 
> I find the behaviour of BOTH sides quite abhorrent - the *Remainers because they refuse to accept what has been a democratic decision.* Had the results been reversed, there is no way Brexit would have been allowed to even contemplate the possibility of another bite at the apple. The Leavers because their gloating attitude is downright embarrassing and very immature. To have accepted the decision with a dignified thanks to those who voted and a heart-felt request to the Remainers for a desire to work together would have been far more productive.
> 
> ...


I found this a very well written post with excellent points, but I have to ask about the bolded. 
Why should one have to accept a voting outcome you fundamentally disagree with just because it was done in a democratic way?

A quick read of history shows a long list of many democratically achieved laws that I think we could all agree have no place in a civilized society. I'm not for a minute suggesting the Brexit vote - either way doesn't have a place in civilized society, I'm just saying that just because something was achieved via majority vote doesn't mean it's worthy of acceptance.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> I voted Leave and would do so again.
> 
> I find the behaviour of BOTH sides quite abhorrent - the Remainers because they refuse to accept what has been a democratic decision. Had the results been reversed, there is no way Brexit would have been allowed to even contemplate the possibility of another bite at the apple. The Leavers because their gloating attitude is downright embarrassing and very immature. To have accepted the decision with a dignified thanks to those who voted and a heart-felt request to the Remainers for a desire to work together would have been far more productive.
> 
> ...


The thing about democracy is that having a vote is only a part of an ever ongoing process, not the be all and end all of a finite process that renders all other opinions null and void. If that were the case, we wouldn't have General Elections every few years, would we?

I fully expect that had the vote gone the other way by a similar margin, then some Leave people would be equally as upset as some Remain people are now. It's human nature. That petition the Leave people have been crying 'sore losers' over was set up in advance by a Leave campaigner who expected to lose, after all, with the idea of contesting the legitimacy of the referendum. And Nigel Farage has been quite open in that he would have been calling for another referendum had Remain won by the same kind of margin. Now, of course, he's all 'it's not best of three' 

As to leadership, one has to wonder why the Leave campaign leaders didn't have a clear strategy for what to do if they won given how close things were predicted to be.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Royoyo said:


> I voted leave and I have no regrets.
> 
> I would vote leave again.


same here


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Sky is falling.
> 
> Or bottom just fell out of my world.
> 
> ...


how did you vote last week?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36648630


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

i abstained (or rather, my postal vote arrived too late for it to be worth sending - but then i delayed applying for it so im not gonna whine about that). I would have voted remain, but i'm under no illusion that my 1 vote would've changed anything at all.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> how did you vote last week?


Guess?
There are subtle hints in Gibraltar and other threads...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

porps said:


> i abstained (or rather, my postal vote arrived too late for it to be worth sending - but then i delayed applying for it so im not gonna whine about that). I would have voted remain, but i'm under no illusion that my 1 vote would've changed anything at all.


how did your region vote?


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## Acidic Angel (May 8, 2012)

I abstained from voting. Because I didn't have enough knowledge and patience to pull apart the fact and fiction at the time. By the time I had any facts it was too late to register and I had no choice. I was only told after that if you were unsure, you should vote remain.
I regret not registering, and I regret not voting. If I had, I would have voted remain.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> Do Farage's speeches and general actions make a difference to anyone? I haven't linked as they are easily found on the web but thinking of the post Victory 'shots fired' and the EU MEP one today.


Voted leave, and stand by my decision.

However, I can't stand Farage, and have never voted UKIP in my life.

52% of the referendum votes were for leave, but at the last election UKIP only mustered 12.6%. That's only 24% of those who voted to leave Europe who also voted for UKIP. Or 3/4 of those who voted to leave hadn't voted for UKIP. Think that says a lot about both Farage's lack of popularity, and reasons other than racism being behind a leave vote.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

I voted remain after debating with myself for months. And I still stand by it. 

I've wanted to leave the EU since I was 14, and when I knew there was going to be a referendum, I was determined to vote leave. My chief reason for changing to remain was the increased emphasis on immigration, in particular, publicity such as the 'breaking point' poster. I found it impossible to align myself with any group that promoted these views, and I was afraid that a win for leave would result in a surge of racist attacks. I so wish I had been proved wrong. (I was also dubious about our current crop of politicians and their ability to negotiate leaving the EU - again, I would love to have been proved wrong.)

I don't want another referendum as I think all it would do would be to further increase the divisions within our country. But if we had one, I would vote remain again. And I am very cross at the way our politicians have let us all down - they had no business even starting this referendum without working out a plan for what would happen if Brexit won. If I am feeling let down, I can't imagine how disappointed Brexit voters must feel.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I am proud I voted remain and stand by it, it breaks my heart how the leave vote seems to be ripping our country part.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> how did your region vote?


Lol!!!!
@porps is an immigrant...
In Finland...

Google "Finland"...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Acidic Angel said:


> I abstained from voting. Because I didn't have enough knowledge and patience to pull apart the fact and fiction at the time. By the time I had any facts it was too late to register and I had no choice. I was only told after that if you were unsure, you should vote remain.
> I regret not registering, and I regret not voting. If I had, I would have voted remain.


Who says if you are unsure you should vote remain? you should vote how you want to vote to reflect your opinions and wishes. If you don't know then its perfectly acceptable to abstain.


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## westie~ma (Mar 16, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Regrets I have a few ....... but seriously voting to leave isn't one of them. I regret the fallout it has caused in terms of the total chaos of government. I can only assume as usual politicians were so arrogant they seriously thought it wouldn't happen so all disappeared down their respective holes when it did (the leave leaders included) to try and come up with a plan for how to get out of it. I also regret the way its divided friends/families/groups probably even more so than the general election did although the hate against Tory voters did go on for several weeks. So whilst I don't regret voting to leave I hope there is a way forward that might be possible to bring people back together again. However somewhere along the line we do have to learn to respect other peoples opinions gracefully and without all this hatred but I just don't see how that will happen which is sad  especially given we could be facing another election in the not too distant future.


This ^^^^^^^^

I've said before immigration was not a motivating factor for the way I voted maybe it was for some but I find the level of hatred unbelievably upsetting. That young Polish boy finding a card telling him to leave, disgraceful.

I'm furious that DC has been allowed to slink away instead of at least helping to get the best deal for UK leader on leader instead of letting others go in and do the dirty work not fully knowing the intricacies of how these things work, personalities and personal knowledge are key. Familiar faces to smooth the way. None of that now.

Nigel Farage does not speak for me, he's a numpty and Juncker is coming on far too aggressive. Merkel is the only one with a sensible head on.

What happens next will depend on how the MPs vote.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

Voted remain and very proud to do that. I could not see any reason to leave. I still cannot see any reason why we should have left.


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## Acidic Angel (May 8, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Who says if you are unsure you should vote remain? you should vote how you want to vote to reflect your opinions and wishes. If you don't know then its perfectly acceptable to abstain.


It was recommended by a number of political people(I don't do politics so I have no idea hence why I was abstaining anyway) to vote remain if you are unsure. The reason being that if we had remained in the EU, we would have to choice to leave in future should we choose to. But that we left(like we have) we would struggle to get back in if we regretted it.


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## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

I do not agree with it being democratic. A vote is only one part of a democratic process and it is the right of everyone from any side to protest. That is democracy and I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf. People saying they have been better loosers if the outcome was reversed speak with an apparent victory in mind and tell us there would be an uprising if Parliament doesn't see it through. That's a bad winner.

Stock phrases - get over it, work together - are bandied around the internet as if we are all to forgive and forget. Nobody has yet said how we are meant to pull together. I'm waiting for a nugget of wisdom. Life isn't so simple. 

I do not wish for this thread to be closed but had to say that.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Acidic Angel said:


> It was recommended by a number of political people(I don't do politics so I have no idea hence why I was abstaining anyway) to vote remain if you are unsure. The reason being that if we had remained in the EU, we would have to choice to leave in future should we choose to. But that we left(like we have) we would struggle to get back in if we regretted it.


I would disagree with that viewpoint though, highly highly unlikely if remain had won the vote that there would be another opportunity for a referendum and by then Merkel would have pressed ahead with her unification programme and it would be even harder to get out.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pawscrossed said:


> I do not agree with it being democratic. A vote is only one part of a democratic process and it is the right of everyone from any side to protest. That is democracy and I have the democratic right to fight against decisions made on my behalf. People saying they have been better loosers if the outcome was reversed speak with an apparent victory in mind and tell us there would be an uprising if Parliament doesn't see it through. That's a bad winner.
> 
> Stock phrases - get over it, work together - are bandied around the internet as if we are all to forgive and forget. Nobody has yet said how we are meant to pull together. I'm waiting for a nugget of wisdom. Life isn't so simple.
> 
> I do not wish for this thread to be closed but had to say that.


But in a democracy how are decisions ever going to be made and policies implemented if the losing side won't accept that they well lost. Sorry if that sounds harsh it isn't meant to be that is the long and the short of it.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2016)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But in a democracy how are decisions ever going to be made and policies implemented if the losing side won't accept that they well lost. Sorry if that sounds harsh it isn't meant to be that is the long and the short of it.


I'm not speaking to the leave/remain vote, but in the bigger picture, I can thing of several instances where simply accepting the outcome of a democratic vote is not the right thing to do.

In some countries a democratic vote would fall in favor of female genital mutilation, segregation of races, honor killings, and other policies that have no place in a civilized society. I would hope that the "losing" side would not just accept the outcome.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But in a democracy how are decisions ever going to be made and policies implemented if the losing side won't accept that they well lost. Sorry if that sounds harsh it isn't meant to be that is the long and the short of it.





ouesi said:


> I'm not speaking to the leave/remain vote, but in the bigger picture, I can thing of several instances where simply accepting the outcome of a democratic vote is not the right thing to do.
> 
> In some countries a democratic vote would fall in favor of female genital mutilation, segregation of races, honor killings, and other policies that have no place in a civilized society. I would hope that the "losing" side would not just accept the outcome.


With such a huge campaign with so much to gain or lose, there needs to be an opposing voice who are listened to if their protest is so loud or the percentage so little (this is not a landslide 'victory'). In view of the uncovering of the lies since the vote, then I firmly believe in that objection being heard. That's not being a sore loser but ethics. The reveal that the NHS £350m was a mistake should be enough to invalidate the process otherwise we're merely saying that it's okay to play dirty. Same on both sides of course, neither were without fault. Whether that's a Norway based agreement, a second vote in the House of Commons or some sort of compromise I don't know but we have a democratic and human right to ask.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Good point @ouesi If people strongly believe that Brexit is going to cause irreversible damage to Britain then they should be doing anything they can to reverse the decision before it's too late, which is why I don't mind people asking me to sign petitions - it is their right if they feel so strongly about it. Just as long as they are polite about it and not rude to Brexiters. And I'd feel the same way if Remain had won and Brexiters thought this was ruining the UK. Because people wouldn't care about this so much if they didn't really care for their country.

I just wish people would exert a little moderation and allow other people to have their opinions. And not drag the referendum into every other area of life. I read a lovely post on Facebook this morning, a really heart-warming and encouraging story which had nothing to do with politics and it really cheered me up after all the referendum spite I've been hearing...until I saw that the person posting it had commented "this really puts the remainers' sour-grape whinging in it's place, doesn't it?!" WHY would anyone feel the need to post such a lovely, encouraging story and then spoil it with a side-swipe at the 'other side'. Argue over the result if we HAVE to , but I wish we could keep the rest of life clear of this.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

BTW, I noticed one person said they had voted remain and regretted it - I don't know if I've missed the reason somewhere in this thread, but I was curious as to why you would regret that? Because leave won anyway, so it's not as if your vote was needed to help them win. So if whoever-you-are doesn't mind explaining, I'd love to know why!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> Good point @ouesi If people strongly believe that Brexit is going to cause irreversible damage to Britain then they should be doing anything they can to reverse the decision before it's too late, which is why I don't mind people asking me to sign petitions - it is their right if they feel so strongly about it. Just as long as they are polite about it and not rude to Brexiters. And I'd feel the same way if Remain had won and Brexiters thought this was ruining the UK. Because people wouldn't care about this so much if they didn't really care for their country.
> 
> *I just wish people would exert a little moderation and allow other people to have their opinions. And not drag the referendum into every other area of life.* I read a lovely post on Facebook this morning, a really heart-warming and encouraging story which had nothing to do with politics and it really cheered me up after all the referendum spite I've been hearing...until I saw that the person posting it had commented "this really puts the remainers' sour-grape whinging in it's place, doesn't it?!" WHY would anyone feel the need to post such a lovely, encouraging story and then spoil it with a side-swipe at the 'other side'. Argue over the result if we HAVE to , but I wish we could keep the rest of life clear of this.


Yes agree. I am being terribly gobby on FB but only on posts and threads that are on that subject alone. Outside that then life has to carry on with some degree of civility!

And yes, to the objecting - a good point. I've been lobbying and protesting when not in here evening. Today I was out on a very busy, vocal protest. Debating online with each other only means the voices go around the same circles.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I don't believe they will consider a 2nd referendum if, for no other reason, there just isn't time now they've informed the EU we are leaving. The EU will be pushing all the time for us to hurry up and go and, as I've said before, it would make us look utterly ridiculous to backtrack now. Nothing changes the fact that more people voted out than in and whilst others chose not to vote for whatever reason, even if they regret that decision, they had their chance.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Anyway we've digressed a little. 

My point was to ask about regrets not debate the points we've done already elsewhere (aware I have done that!) and if anyone had any about their vote.

I hope we can still all remain civil. I appreciate that's easier said than done


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I'm not speaking to the leave/remain vote, but in the bigger picture, I can thing of several instances where simply accepting the outcome of a democratic vote is not the right thing to do.
> 
> In some countries a democratic vote would fall in favor of female genital mutilation, segregation of races, honor killings, and other policies that have no place in a civilized society. I would hope that the "losing" side would not just accept the outcome.


Yes that is a fair point and I've done my share of demonstrating in the past, going on marches, organising campaigns/lobbying of MP's etc if its something I feel strongly about but I don't think I've ever felt the right to try and overturn an election result or as in this case a referendum result. The elected house of commons held a vote about whether to hold a referendum and overwhelming agreed to hold it, if the result is ignored because the losing side don't think its the right result then what is the point in ever bothering to turn out for a referendum or election. Perhaps they should have set a bigger majority, I don't know, its a tricky one.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I voted remain. 

I have no regrets.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I found this a very well written post with excellent points, but I have to ask about the bolded.
> Why should one have to accept a voting outcome you fundamentally disagree with just because it was done in a democratic way?
> 
> A quick read of history shows a long list of many democratically achieved laws that I think we could all agree have no place in a civilized society. I'm not for a minute suggesting the Brexit vote - either way doesn't have a place in civilized society, I'm just saying that just because something was achieved via majority vote doesn't mean it's worthy of acceptance.


My reason on this point is because we were told, VERY specifically, that this was it. Our one chance / opportunity to speak up, stand up & be counted. This referendum would only happen once. I feel, very strongly, that had the numbers been the opposite way around, Brexit would now be getting to told to take a hike and the above statement would be trotted out ad nauseam. Had Brexit been the 'losers' there is no way folks would be scrabbling their way through all the legalities trying to find a means of getting a 2nd referendum.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The question is will the legal democratic vote legally held that produced a majority to leave the EU ever be implemented and if not, can HMG be prosecuted under any law of the land?

I can see the howls from the few overriding the wishes of the many...Scotland, N.Ireland and Gibraltar (as regions) voted against the wishes of the majority of the UK as a whole.....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Scotland 
STAY 1,661,298 
LEAVE 1,018,214

I wonder if the *1,661,298* who voted the stay in the EU were mostly made up of the *1,617,989* who voted to stay in the UK in the 2014 referendum to leave...

No wonder Sturgeon is having a hissy fit


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

MoggyBaby said:


> Had Brexit been the 'losers' there is no way folks would be scrabbling their way through all the legalities trying to find a means of getting a 2nd referendum.


But surely they would? Wasn't it Farage who said it would be unfinished business if it was within 48-52% and prompt him to fight for a second referendum? and wasn't it a Brexiter who created the petition, so that it was ready for use if needed?


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Yes, it was! I have a friend who is an enthusiastic Brexiter and was furious in his condemnation of the petition...until I pointed out where it originated!  So no, I don't think Brexiters would have accepted such a narrow majority, since they were already planning how to fight that kind of result before the referendum. 

I'm also having fun asking some Brexit friends why they have gone so quiet about MI5 altering the votes to rig the results...one of them was SO vocal the day before, warning us not to believe the result because it would have been rigged  Funny, he hasn't said that since


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I stand by what I voted although I am disgusted and ashamed with the behaviour of the minority of those who voted the same as me.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Let's not forget, this was a narrow margin. There is bound to be disappointment, same as the Scottish independence referendum. A 'landslide' victory would have fewer disappointed voters and thus less dissent after the fact.

We're more or less a hung jury.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

I voted Remain and I don't regret it. However, I don't think there should be another referendum, and if there were one, I would probably abstain. Nor do I think Parliament should overturn the decision to leave. Much as I regret the outcome of the referendum and think that leaving is the wrong decision for the UK, what's done is done and I fear that any attempts to overturn it would have a MASSIVE backlash (mass rioting, even greater increase in hate crimes, etc) and basically cause even more hurt and suffering than the potential negative effects of leaving.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I'm not speaking to the leave/remain vote, but in the bigger picture, I can thing of several instances where simply accepting the outcome of a democratic vote is not the right thing to do.
> 
> In some countries a democratic vote would fall in favor of female genital mutilation, segregation of races, honor killings, and other policies that have no place in a civilized society. I would hope that the "losing" side would not just accept the outcome.


Not sure I accept that argument: for instance, I wouldn't imagine many women would vote for mutilation. Of course, if they can't vote, then that's not really a democratic vote is it?


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Charity said:


> I don't believe they will consider a 2nd referendum if, for no other reason, *there just isn't time now they've informed the EU we are leaving*. The EU will be pushing all the time for us to hurry up and go and, as I've said before, it would make us look utterly ridiculous to backtrack now. Nothing changes the fact that more people voted out than in and whilst others chose not to vote for whatever reason, even if they regret that decision, they had their chance.


Until Article 50 is invoked, we haven't informed the EU we are leaving - and although we already know that won't happen until at least October now, there is no time limit on when that has to be done by. All we've done so far is announce the result of an opinion poll.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Catharinem said:


> Not sure I accept that argument: for instance, I wouldn't imagine many women would vote for mutilation. Of course, if they can't vote, then that's not really a democratic vote is it?


Sadly you'd be surprised - it's usually the older women who organise and carry out the cutting ceremonies, complete with parties for the relatives of the victims. Some believe that it is a necessary part of becoming a woman.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> Sadly you'd be surprised - it's usually the older women who organise and carry out the cutting ceremonies, complete with parties for the relatives of the victims. Some believe that it is a necessary part of becoming a woman.


But is that because their daughters won't get a husband otherwise? In an environment where a woman needs a husband to have any status at all?


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> The question is will the legal democratic vote legally held that produced a majority to leave the EU ever be implemented and if not, can HMG be prosecuted under any law of the land?
> 
> I can see the howls from the few overriding the wishes of the many...Scotland, N.Ireland and Gibraltar (as regions) voted against the wishes of the majority of the UK as a whole.....


It isn't a binding vote, so no prosecutions could be made if it wasn't implemented.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> Voted leave, and stand by my decision.
> 
> However, I can't stand Farage, and have never voted UKIP in my life.
> 
> 52% of the referendum votes were for leave, but at the last election UKIP only mustered 12.6%. That's only 24% of those who voted to leave Europe who also voted for UKIP. Or 3/4 of those who voted to leave hadn't voted for UKIP. Think that says a lot about both Farage's lack of popularity, and reasons other than racism being behind a leave vote.


Agree to a point. Certainly Micheal Foot's Labour Party supported a UK exit from the EEC. Like Mr Corbyn and the late Tony Benn they can hardly be considered right wing.

I also recall the Militant paper (remember that?!) policy of, "Withdrawal from the capitalist EEC and support for establishing a socialist United States of Europe".

This became Mr Farage's campaign with Mr Johnson impersonating him so well at times it was hardly surprising many said he was Farage in a blonde wig.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

So the leave campaign win the vote then once they win immediately back track on their promises & people don't think the validity of the vote should be challenged? They told people a pack of lies to get votes - what kind of a democracy is this? People were duped into voting out & those of us who never wanted to leave now have to suck it up & suffer the consequences as well.

Leave vote said this was a battle for democracy & accountability - then deletes their whole website of bogus promises - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...its-website-after-eu-referendum-a7105546.html

I would feel utterly cheated & betrayed if I had voted out. Does anyone still believe our NHS is safe in their hands?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I would feel utterly cheated & betrayed if I had voted out. Does anyone still believe our NHS is safe in their hands?


I know someone who actually believed the "Let's fund our NHS instead" slogan on their bus. Unbelievable. Even Sir John Major warned of the future of the NHS in their hands.......


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Jesthar said:


> Until Article 50 is invoked, we haven't informed the EU we are leaving - and although we already know that won't happen until at least *October* now, there is no time limit on when that has to be done by. All we've done so far is announce the result of an opinion poll.


Waiting that long isn't fair on anyone, we are leaving so we should start the process now. the PM has deserted a sinking ship and is leaving someone else to sort out he mess, he should have stayed sorted it before resigning.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

I respectfully disagree. Why should he stay on to sort out the mess they have caused? I don't blame him for resigning. I would've done the same in his shoes.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> once they win immediately back track on their promises & people don't think the validity of the vote should be challenged? They told people a pack of lies to get votes - what kind of a democracy is this?


In fairness, you could say this about most elections. Politicians not being completely honest is hardly breaking news.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> So the leave campaign win the vote then once they win immediately back track on their promises & people don't think the validity of the vote should be challenged? They told people a pack of lies to get votes - what kind of a democracy is this? People were duped into voting out & those of us who never wanted to leave now have to suck it up & suffer the consequences as well.
> 
> Leave vote said this was a battle for democracy & accountability - then deletes their whole website of bogus promises - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...its-website-after-eu-referendum-a7105546.html
> 
> I would feel utterly cheated & betrayed if I had voted out. Does anyone still believe our NHS is safe in their hands?


Noush, it's pretty futile.

Despite them actually saying they can't do as promised, despite them saying the have no plan and need a holiday first, despite many things many of those who voted leave would do it again for a soundbite. To say we are 'free' and have 'taken back control'. 
They don't understand what they've done, or care and I have read many say they won't care if we go into recession, as it happens and it will be worth it. Lord knows if they think it will be worth it if they or their family end up homeless, but that's what your contending with. People who say they don't care, as long as we are 'free'.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I voted remain, and given the backlash, I definitely have no regrets that I voted this way.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Waiting that long isn't fair on anyone, we are leaving so we should start the process now. the PM has deserted a sinking ship and is leaving someone else to sort out he mess, he should have stayed sorted it before resigning.


How can he manage negotiations for something he doesn't believe in?

Maybe the amazing Johnson who was so strong minded and vocal until the result came through should come out of hiding and take some responsibility as he believes it's right for the country....


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

The Leave voters in general bemuse me. They gloat that they won, saying "Remainers are bad losers and should just accept the vote", then they cry that the racists don't speak for them and declare that, despite the campaign focussing on immigration, they didn't see it coming? And of course, had they lost, they'd have been magnanimous in defeat?

They're not even magnanimous in victory, never mind defeat! The petition for a 2nd referendum - started by THEM - not the Remainers, which belies their belief that they would have "just accepted" the result had it been the other way round. 

This isn't just a General Election. This result affects lives. It affects every single one of us and the Remain voters (absolutely wrong to label all Leave voters as racists) have a legitimate right to be deeply concerned and grief -stricken. Marriages and families face uncertainty, immigrants worried about how the vote will affect them, the uncertainty of the pound and stock market, businesses affected (Branson states 1,000s of jobs to go), contracts being cancelled because of the uncertainty, the housing markets, banks, interest rates being affected, immigrants and ex-pats facing really worrying and uncertain futures...

But yeah, of course, the Remainers should just put up and shut up.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

So our trip to the supermarket will start to us cost more, as the pound loses value and imports cost us more.

I voted "remain" so I'll have the right to moan.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Although I did do a bit of reading into some genuine reasons to leave the EU, I still firmly stand by my Remain vote. 

Maybe there is a case, at some point, for the UK to leave the EU, but not whilst the world economy is as unstable as it is JMHO. 

My only regret is that I fell out with a couple of good friends about as it as they were openly gloating about the results and dismissed my very real fears for an uncertain future. (or maybe I regret I had some friends I really didn't know at all  )


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

@Muze good friendships will survive voting differences. If you've lost the friendship, it's not because of voting differences but the person's behaviour, and it's better that you've found out what they are really like.

I had a spat with my best friend who was very upset I voted remain, but we have agreed to differ, and although our friendship feels a little 'bruised' right now, I know we are going to stay friends. With other friends, it hasn't been an issue at all. But one 'friend' has said some horrible things about remainers and said I was wicked & mentally/emotionally immature to vote remain. She has also told lies about me to mutual friends, presumably to put me in a bad light in case I tell them what she said to me. I am never going to trust her or feel comfortable in her company again, but it's not because of how she/I voted, it's because my friendship with her was based on a false understanding of her personality. If she'd voted remain and behaved this way to leavers, I'd still have lost the friendship, because I can't trust someone who acts that way to anyone. In one way I'm sad, but in another, I'm glad I now know what she is like so I don't waste time on a friendship that isn't real.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Muze and Cuddlemonster, I am so sorry.

I think what these posts prove is truly how this vote has divided our nation and it seems an awfully long way back if friendships are even rocked by it. I feel this is only the beginning, when we leave fully and the banks and the economy take a real hit I feel there will be further consequences, or when they negotiate and we do have to allow free movement, I feel those who voted leave to prevent that will speak out. I feel we will be a divided nation for a long while yet.

I am going out today to see a group of friends, most were brexit, so in my heart I am dreading it, I know there will be gloating as they campaigned for it, banners in their windows as well. I am trying to remain positive, in all honesty this result has had a severe consequence on my health too and I feel like I just don't want to go.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I voted Leave and it's too early to know whether I'll regret it.

I expected a period of uncertainty and readjustment.

I find it hard to believe that any politician would promise a referendum on something so important without considering the ramifications if the vote didn't go the way they wanted.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You wouldn't expect a Tory government to have contingency plans in place to implement Labour policies. It needs to be those who were always behind the idea to take it forward. As we're constantly being told - this is about the people and what they chose and they deserve a leadership comprised of like minded politicians.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Muze and Cuddlemonster, I am so sorry.
> 
> I think what these posts prove is truly how this vote has divided our nation and it seems an awfully long way back if friendships are even rocked by it. I feel this is only the beginning, when we leave fully and the banks and the economy take a real hit I feel there will be further consequences, or when they negotiate and we do have to allow free movement, I feel those who voted leave to prevent that will speak out. I feel we will be a divided nation for a long while yet.
> 
> I am going out today to see a group of friends, most were brexit, so in my heart I am dreading it, I know there will be gloating as they campaigned for it, banners in their windows as well. I am trying to remain positive, in all honesty this result has had a severe consequence on my health too and I feel like I just don't want to go.


Don't go then. Leave it until everything has settled down and just refuse to be drawn into a debate. It's not worth getting upset about it.

I bumped into a friend on Friday who has opposing views on politics in general to me. We talked about it, disagreed on most points (without malice) and agreed on a couple. We agree to disagree  As far as I'm concerned it's done and I don't want to keep going over it and I certainly won't fall out with her about it.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I have a friend who voted Leave, (I voted Remain), and unfortunately, since last Thursday, he has developed a habit of gloating, (mainly through Facebook), congratulating himself and other 'Leave' acquaintances of his and suggesting those who voted to remain are fools.

I don't want to be drawn in, so I've been giving him a wide berth and I will until he calms down.

Emmaviolet, I would make your excuses and not visit your Friend until things have settled down. None of us should have to listen to others gloating because the vote went in their favour.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> In fairness, you could say this about most elections. Politicians not being completely honest is hardly breaking news.


This is why I take everything conservative politicians say with a pinch of salt lol. 'Never trust a tory'  Best advice ever!  Is there actually anything the brexit camp were truthful about? Anything at all?



emmaviolet said:


> Noush, it's pretty futile.
> 
> Despite them actually saying they can't do as promised, despite them saying the have no plan and need a holiday first, despite many things many of those who voted leave would do it again for a soundbite. To say we are 'free' and have 'taken back control'.
> They don't understand what they've done, or care and I have read many say they won't care if we go into recession, as it happens and it will be worth it. Lord knows if they think it will be worth it if they or their family end up homeless, but that's what your contending with. People who say they don't care, as long as we are 'free'.


You're right Emma. This mentality has been a reflection of what I've encountered both on the net and in real life. They remind me of climate change deniers.

.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> You're right Emma. This mentality has been a reflection of what I've encountered both on the net and in real life. They remind me of climate change deniers.
> 
> .


was that the old global warming? (ive got the heating on BTW)

and where is that hole in the ozone layer we were warned about?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

The Sun Page 10 today: "Bojo and Grove WILL honour their promises to Sun readers".

Wonder if that includes the £350million extra for the NHS as clearly stated on their bus?!


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Was working with a guy yesterday who has always seemed like a lovely, intelligent person and we usually get on really well. He asked me how I voted so I asked him the same. He told me he'd voted to leave but that he was really shocked by the effects the leave win was having. He said he thought the public had not been told the truth about what might happen. He kept repeating: ''They said it was just about immigrants claiming benefits''

Although I voted to remain, I have every respect for those who voted to leave based on a sound understanding of the issues and am happy to listen to their views and their vision for the future.

However, on this occasion I was speechless and just had to walk away.
I like to think he represents a tiny minority of those who voted leave but I'm not so sure.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> The Sun Page 10 today: "Bojo and Grove WILL honour their promises to Sun readers".
> 
> Wonder if that includes the £350million extra for the NHS as clearly stated on their bus?!


maybe.....when we finally leave


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> So the leave campaign win the vote then once they win immediately back track on their promises & people don't think the validity of the vote should be challenged? They told people a pack of lies to get votes - what kind of a democracy is this? People were duped into voting out & those of us who never wanted to leave now have to suck it up & suffer the consequences as well.
> 
> Leave vote said this was a battle for democracy & accountability - then deletes their whole website of bogus promises - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...its-website-after-eu-referendum-a7105546.html
> 
> I would feel utterly cheated & betrayed if I had voted out. Does anyone still believe our NHS is safe in their hands?


You are assuming that people who voted to leave did so based on the claims made such as the 350 m for the NHS whereas in reality most voters make their minds up on all sorts of issues and those claims did not affect the way I voted one bit. In the same way George Osborne and the remain campaign threatening falling house prices, reduction in pensions and oh yes an emergency budget immediately which has yet to materialise did not sway my opinion either. I think it just sums up why so few people have trust/faith in politicians of all parties anymore. Labour are hardly covering themselves in glory at the moment the way they are trying to ignore their own voters who put Jeremy Corbyn as leader.



LinznMilly said:


> The Leave voters in general bemuse me. They gloat that they won, saying "Remainers are bad losers and should just accept the vote", then they cry that the racists don't speak for them and declare that, despite the campaign focussing on immigration, they didn't see it coming? And of course, had they lost, they'd have been magnanimous in defeat?
> 
> They're not even magnanimous in victory, never mind defeat! The petition for a 2nd referendum - started by THEM - not the Remainers, which belies their belief that they would have "just accepted" the result had it been the other way round.
> 
> ...


I haven't met a single leave voter in RL and only perhaps 1 or 2 online who have gloated about winning. I don't of course frequent facebook or twitter or instagram and have no desire to listen to other people gloat about anything. When you say the petition for the second referendum was started by them I think you mean by the campaign team rather than by actual voters. If remain had won and the leave side had circulated that petition I would not have signed it just as I didn't sign the one started by a member on here against the petition for a second referendum. We would be going round in circles achieving nothing for ever if we all did that.



emmaviolet said:


> Muze and Cuddlemonster, I am so sorry.
> 
> I think what these posts prove is truly how this vote has divided our nation and it seems an awfully long way back if friendships are even rocked by it. I feel this is only the beginning, when we leave fully and the banks and the economy take a real hit I feel there will be further consequences, or when they negotiate and we do have to allow free movement, I feel those who voted leave to prevent that will speak out. I feel we will be a divided nation for a long while yet.
> 
> I am going out today to see a group of friends, most were brexit, so in my heart I am dreading it, I know there will be gloating as they campaigned for it, banners in their windows as well. I am trying to remain positive, in all honesty this result has had a severe consequence on my health too and I feel like I just don't want to go.


Sorry you are dreading meeting your friends. I do think its sad that people are letting this issue cause such big friction amongst family and friends. My Mum voted to remain and we haven't fallen out about it. I think she was daft but then she is a lifelong labour voter who once voted UKIP in the local council elections because the man was so nice and friendly  she was horrified when I told her what they stood for. At the weekend she was going out for lunch with people who all voted to leave and she was quite anxious that the meal was going to be ruined by bad atmospheres or them ganging up on her but it was hardly mentioned and everything was fine.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks all, I am still dreading it, feel a bit weird in all honesty.

I have a small solution which is to arrive a bit late, hopefully most of that talk will be out of the way by then. I just can't get out of this, otherwise I wouldn't go.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

I don't mind being called a "Sore loser". I'm sore and hurt as I passionately believe in working together in this uncertain world, not against each other. Mr Farage's performance was a strong example of the latter yesterday.

The way things look they could be many "Sore winners" too.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> When you say the petition for the second referendum was started by them I think you mean by the campaign team rather than by actual voters


Actually, I believe you are mistaken. The person who allegedly started the petition has been identified on social media and has admitted to starting it because, as a Leave voter, he expected to lose. No doubt he got the idea from Farage, but it wasn't the campaign who started it...

I'll see if I can find the link.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> Actually, I believe you are mistaken. The person who allegedly started the petition has been identified on social media and has admitted to starting it because, as a Leave voter, he expected to lose. No doubt he got the idea from Farage, but it wasn't the campaign who started it...
> 
> I'll see if I can find the link.


Oh OK apologies - I thought I read on this thread somewhere that it was started by Farage's team in anticipation of losing the vote.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_576f8b28e4b0232d331e1b39?edition=uk


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_576f8b28e4b0232d331e1b39?edition=uk


Thanks - why on earth would anyone start a petition against something that hasn't even happened? serves him right that it got hijacked.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I am sorry @CuddleMonster and @emmaviolet.

It's caused friction with my family. My immediate family and my husband have all voted remain but my cousins and aunt have voted leave. Unfortunately one of my cousins and especially my aunt would make awesome preachers. Rather than debate - which I am happy to do - they pontificate and then sulk on a biblical scale when nobody agrees. My cousin is currently flouncing on FB as a sore victor if such a think can be termed and annoyed that her friends and I do not agree. It's this behaviour that makes me admire anyone honest enough to come on here and say 'I made a mistake' (not in a Farage way of course).

I am afraid that due to the sad nature of life without children, I'm used to being in difficult and challenging social situations, people can be very assumptive and thoughtless, attempting to give labels- which we've been doing a lot here - losing and winning are two. Can we ban those for the rest of these discussions? It's not a landslide and hardly a win or a loss.

I agree with you @emmaviolet that it can affect health, I am sure it does.

My advice is to go on your own terms. If the discussion gets too much excuse yourself with the reason you have to make a call, or maybe see if you can find an ally there or bring a guest who shares the same views. There's nothing wrong with also saying that you don't want to talk about as you want to remain friends and it means a lot to you. Which I can clearly see from your posts that it does and you've both made great, eloquent points (which I hope gives you confidence) and I have enjoyed your posts having never much conversed here before!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thanks - why on earth would anyone start a petition against something that hasn't even happened? serves him right that it got hijacked.


Head-scratcher, isn't it? It's like calling a football ref your expletive of choice just before he allows your team's winning goal (general you). :Hilarious


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> maybe.....when we finally leave


You could be right, by funds risen from compulsory medical insurance we'll be needing, not from the EU exit itself!

Such funds would probably be from a small percentage made from the profits of the insurance companies to help fund the new British Health PLC.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

KatieandOliver said:


> Yes, I will be very honest, I voted leave and regret it because I had no idea (possibly naively) that it would cause this horrid outburst of racial hatred  it's just horrible


@KatieandOliver: the racial hatred, nasty as it is, could be anyone. Yes, It could be ''Leavers''; it could also be disgruntled ''Remainers'' trying to stir things up. There are some screwed-up people around, that's a fact.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> was that the old global warming? (ive got the heating on BTW)
> 
> and where is that hole in the ozone layer we were warned about?


Sorry CB, but you are the perfect example of the mentality I was talking about. Closed minded.

FYI No its the SAME global warming as its always been. Global warming is term that has always been used to describe the increase in global temperatures. Climate change is the term to describe the change in weather patterns. I don't know why I'm bothering because you clearly don't care about facts. but here goes!

Everyone knows that climate change is real and that it is man-made - the scientific consensus leaves no room for doubt. A tiny minority of people pretend not to believe the science because short-term profits are more important to them. Unfortunately these people are exceedingly powerful because only the extremely rich will benefit from delaying action on climate change. Their public nonsense provides a mostly right-wing public (like you )with some sand to stick their heads in while the planet goes into melt down right before our eyes.

The Great Barrier reef lost 1/4 of its coral this year. We are witnessing ecological collapses across vast areas but getting our country back is far more important than even trying to save our beautiful planet.

Read this & weep! - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/07/the-great-barrier-reef-a-catastrophe-laid-bare

*Australia's natural wonder is in mortal danger. Bleaching caused by climate change has killed almost a quarter of its coral this year and many scientists believe it could be too late for the rest. Using exclusive photographs and new data, a Guardian special report investigates how the reef has been devastated - and what can be done to save it*



rottiepointerhouse said:


> You are assuming that people who voted to leave did so based on the claims made such as the 350 m for the NHS whereas in reality most voters make their minds up on all sorts of issues and those claims did not affect the way I voted one bit. In the same way George Osborne and the remain campaign threatening falling house prices, reduction in pensions and oh yes an emergency budget immediately which has yet to materialise did not sway my opinion either. I think it just sums up why so few people have trust/faith in politicians of all parties anymore. Labour are hardly covering themselves in glory at the moment the way they are trying to ignore their own voters who put Jeremy Corbyn as leader
> 
> ]


I'm assuming they fell for the lie that immigration & the EU are the reason public services are stretched & our NHS is in crisis. I assumed they believed that voting to leave the EU would free up money tor these services & reduce immigration. Obviously I knew it was a big fat lie, hence why I voted remain. - If not based on these issues, then I'm intrigued to know what else they were voting for? Did they really vote solely out of some false sense of nationalism? :Wideyed I know round here the promises on immigration, the money for the NHS - and getting our country back seem to be the biggest factors for wanting to leave - I must have had half a dozen leave leaflets though my door spouting this [email protected]

As I said many times, I never trust any tory. I would never base any decision making on anything this bunch of crooks had to say. I made my decision based on the consensus of experts in every field who warned us against leaving. The experts & the Green Party - who always have the best interests of the people & the environment at heart swayed my vote.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Absolutely brilliant Nouska.

I'm old enough to remember Mrs Thatcher's "The NHS is safe in our hands" speech after being crippled by spending cuts.

Never trust a Tory, too true. For Sir John Major to speak out about trusting the Leave lot with it really is saying something.

For once, I agree with him.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The Labour party (guardians of out welfare state) allowed the vast expansion of private investment in hospital buildings meaning we are now paying ten times more back than the buildings are worth


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> The Labour party (guardians of out welfare state) allowed the vast expansion of private investment in hospital buildings meaning we are now paying ten times more back than the buildings are worth


You're right.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Sorry CB, but you are the perfect example of the mentality I was talking about. Closed minded.
> 
> FYI No its the SAME global warming as its always been. Global warming is term that has always been used to describe the increase in global temperatures. Climate change is the term to describe the change in weather patterns. I don't know why I'm bothering because you clearly don't care about facts. but here goes!
> 
> ...


this planet has had many ice ages, can we blame mammoths for some?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

There have been at least five major ice ages in the earth's past (the Huronian,Cryogenian,Andean-Saharan, Karoo Ice Age and the Quaternary glaciation). Outside these ages, the Earth seems to have been ice-free even in high latitudes.

Rocks from the earliest well established ice age, called the Huronian, formed around 2.4 to 2.1 Ga (billion years) ago during the early Proterozoic Eon. Several hundreds of km of the Huronian Supergroup are exposed 10-100 km north of the north shore of Lake Huron extending from near Sault Ste. Marie to Sudbury, northeast of Lake Huron, with giant layers of now-lithified till beds, dropstones, varves, outwash, and scoured basement rocks. Correlative Huronian deposits have been found near Marquette, Michigan, and correlation has been made with Paleoproterozoic glacial deposits from Western Australia.

The next well-documented ice age, and probably the most severe of the last billion years, occurred from 850 to 630 million years ago (the Cryogenian period) and may have produced a Snowball Earth in which glacial ice sheets reached the equator,[33] possibly being ended by the accumulation of greenhouse gases such as CO2 produced by volcanoes. "The presence of ice on the continents and pack ice on the oceans would inhibit both silicate weathering and photosynthesis, which are the two major sinks for CO2 at present."[34] It has been suggested that the end of this ice age was responsible for the subsequent Ediacaran and Cambrian explosion, though this model is recent and controversial.

The Andean-Saharan occurred from 460 to 420 million years ago, during the Late Ordovician and the Silurian period.

The evolution of land plants at the onset of the Devonian period caused a long term increase in planetary oxygen levels and reduction of CO2 levels, which resulted in the Karoo Ice Age. It is named after the glacial tills found in the Karoo region of South Africa, where evidence for this ice age was first clearly identified. There were extensive polar ice caps at intervals from 360 to 260 million years ago in South Africa during the Carboniferous and early Permian Periods. Correlatives are known from Argentina, also in the center of the ancient supercontinent Gondwanaland.

Sediment records showing the fluctuating sequences of glacials and interglacials during the last several million years.
The current ice age, the Pliocene-Quaternary glaciation, started about 2.58 million years ago during the late Pliocene, when the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000- and 100,000-year time scales called glacial periods, glacials or glacial advances, and interglacial periods, interglacials or glacial retreats. The earth is currently in an interglacial, and the last glacial period ended about 10,000 years ago. All that remains of the continental ice sheets are the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets and smaller glaciers such as on Baffin Island.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

[QUOTE="noushka05, post: 1064581809, member: 2189"

I'm assuming they fell for the lie that immigration & the EU are the reason public services are stretched & our NHS is in crisis. I assumed they believed that voting to leave the EU would free up money tor these services & reduce immigration. Obviously I knew it was a big fat lie, hence why I voted remain. - If not based on these issues, then I'm intrigued to know what else they were voting for? Did they really vote solely out of some false sense of nationalism? :Wideyed I know round here the promises on immigration, the money for the NHS - and getting our country back seem to be the biggest factors for wanting to leave - I must have had half a dozen leave leaflets though my door spouting this [email protected]

As I said many times, I never trust any tory. I would never base any decision making on anything this bunch of crooks had to say. I made my decision based on the consensus of experts in every field who warned us against leaving. The experts & the Green Party - who always have the best interests of the people & the environment at heart swayed my vote.[/QUOTE]

But the prime minister and the chancellor are tories (obviously ) and they were fronting the campaign to remain more so than the labour leadership so I'm not really sure where party politics comes into this debate. I know YOU vote having listened to the people you trust and agree with, likewise I made my own mind up therefore we should give other people the benefit of the doubt and stop assuming that everyone votes according to the Sun or what Nigel Farage says. I don't trust politicians full stop anymore and haven't for a long time. When it comes down to it Blair was hardly a shining example of an honest and altruistic leader was he?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> So our trip to the supermarket will start to us cost more, as the pound loses value and imports cost us more.
> 
> I voted "remain" so I'll have the right to moan.


Or to put it another way, British meat, eggs and veg can now be sold at a price that reflects the time and energy put in to its production, and the much higher welfare standards of British farm animals to many EU ones, and not forced into a price war with producers churning out mass produced, low welfare, meat, eggs and milk.

If vegetarians have a problem with British livestock farmers, spare a thought for livestock raised in places like France. Google "French farmers". I was trying to find a particular article, but before I'd even put in "burning sheep alive" Google found this as the 3rd option of French farmers: " French farmers burning sheep". Yes, French farmers hijacked lorries of live sheep and set fire to them, burning sheep and lambs alive. Some were also poisoned or had their throats slit. These were French *farmers*, that knew full well the suffering they caused, yet were capable of torturing sheep to death for their own political and financial gains. I am shaking here, and feeling sick.

Some EU countries still have battery hens, producing cheap eggs, which are then used as ingredients in other things.

Damn right we should encourage people to buy British food from British farmers, by making lower welfare imports non financially viable.
_*
*_


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Calvine said:


> @KatieandOliver: the racial hatred, nasty as it is, could be anyone. Yes, It could be ''Leavers''; it could also be disgruntled ''Remainers'' trying to stir things up. There are some screwed-up people around, that's a fact.


Agree, they'll find any excuse.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> All we've done so far is announce the result of an opinion poll.


One hell of an opinion poll :Wideyed .

I wonder what the encore will be.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

The things annoying me at the moment are the memes going on about WWII vets and how they fought for a free Europe, yes they did, but the clue is in the name, it was WORLD war, many allied countries helped in that defeat, it wasn't just someone's sweet old granddad!


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

emmaviolet said:


> I am going out today to see a group of friends, most were brexit, so in my heart I am dreading it, I know there will be gloating as they campaigned for it, banners in their windows as well. I am trying to remain positive, in all honesty this result has had a severe consequence on my health too and I feel like I just don't want to go.


If they mention it, I would just explain that you understand they are happy, but that you are very upset by the result so would they mind not talking about it. True friends should be sympathetic and be prepared to change the subject. It is a week now, and I think a lot of people are getting a bit bored with it anyway!


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Calvine said:


> @KatieandOliver: the racial hatred, nasty as it is, could be anyone. Yes, It could be ''Leavers'';* it could also be disgruntled ''Remainers'' trying to stir things up.* There are some screwed-up people around, that's a fact.


Are you seriously claiming that remain voters are going round saying 'we voted leave so now you have to get out' just so they can upset people who voted leave? It seems a bit strange.

I understand that the majority of leave voters are horrified by these actions and anxious not to be associated with them in any way. And I know that not all Brexiters are racist, just as not all racists are Brexiters. But claiming that people shouting 'we voted leave so we could get rid of you' or 'now we've won the referendum, you have to get out' are really remainers in disguise is ridiculous.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

I agree wholeheartedly Cuddle Monster.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> Are you seriously claiming that remain voters are going round saying 'we voted leave so now you have to get out' just so they can upset people who voted leave? It seems a bit strange.
> 
> I understand that the majority of leave voters are horrified by these actions and anxious not to be associated with them in any way. And I know that not all Brexiters are racist, just as not all racists are Brexiters. But claiming that people shouting 'we voted leave so we could get rid of you' or 'now we've won the referendum, you have to get out' are really remainers in disguise is ridiculous.


@CuddleMonster: I am quite clearly simply saying that it _could_ be the case. Anything _could _be the case.You obviously are privy to information which I do not have; lucky you. That's all. And I have never considered myself to be ridiculous...and don't know why you should think this is the case as you do not know me. Chill out, please do, and be polite which I always try to be. Did you hear these people shouting? Were you there? No, Neither was I!!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Meanwhile...Spain promised to block Scotland's bid for EU...
One can guess what what was promised by Britain in exchange...


Any homes available for family of five plus two furries and fish tank?
May contain some Polish....


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Sorry CB, but you are the perfect example of the mentality I was talking about. Closed minded.
> 
> FYI No its the SAME global warming as its always been. Global warming is term that has always been used to describe the increase in global temperatures. Climate change is the term to describe the change in weather patterns. I don't know why I'm bothering because you clearly don't care about facts. but here goes!
> 
> ...


I admire your attempt. Well done 

Shame that I've read this from Professor Scott Lucas, University of Birmingham (which concurs with much of the opinions from the Cambridge Science Park, itself a world leader in research) "*The Large Hadron Collider, the world's largest particle accelerator, was only possible through international approach to collaboration*. The envisaged upgrade to the machine in the next 15 years, requiring hundreds of millions of pounds, will rest even more on co-operation rather than a national venture.

Facing the constraints on funding, UK science has benefited from increasing levels of European Union resources. Almost €1.4 billion (£1.11 billion) has been allocated since 2014, "the equivalent to another Research Council", according to university officials.

For example, since 2007 Britain has won almost 1,400 of more than 5,000 grants from the European Research Council, receiving 22% of allocated funds. That support has backed achievements from 3D imaging for regenerative medicine to the understanding of proto-galaxies to the latest advances in nano-science.

With Brexit, UK institutions and individuals might still be able to appeal for support under some schemes for EU collaboration outside the Union. However, these would be a fraction of what is possible now. Put bluntly, British science would be on the outside looking in."

And of course, Stephen Hawking and around 150 other members of the Royal Society at Cambridge University have said that a vote for Brexit would be a "disaster for UK science and universities."

Much of the concern centers around funding. The EU budgeted an estimated €120 billion ($134 billion) to directly support research and innovation projects from 2014 to 2020, and Britain has been a major beneficiary. From 2007 to 2013, the UK contributed an estimated €5.4 billion to EU research and development, according to the UK Office of National Statistics. During that time period, it received €8.8 billion in direct EU funding for research, development, and innovation (figures from the RS).

Some of the most prestigious and valuable research grants in Europe are awarded by the European Research Council, an EU initiative. Not only do these launch the best British scientists onto the world stage, but British scientists have earned more back in grants than the UK has contributed in every year of the scheme's existence.

Then there are the EU Marie Slodowska-Curie mobility fellowships, which support EU scientists to come to Britain as postdoctoral fellows - the main drivers and heroes of bench science in many disciplines. British labs were awarded over €1bn between 2007 and 2014. Again, we receive more than we put in, as we received almost double the amount of money than the next best funded country, Germany.

And by sheer numbers, the biggest impact is probably the Erasmus exchange studentships, which fund tens of thousands of undergraduate and diploma students to move in each direction every year. Many end up doing research in British labs, and those that go abroad bring back training and skills.

*What does this have to do with you? What on earth goes on at Cambridge that affects me? Well, this research has pushed forward pioneering advances in Alzheimers, IVF and cancer. The EU has propped up UK cancer research to the tune of £126m in the past decade, amounting to more than 40% of public money poured into the work. So this AFFECTS ALL OF US! *

So whilst @Colliebarmy might assume that global warming has disappeared because it's not in the news, it might just disappear completely from any UK based research.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Calvine said:


> @CuddleMonster: I am quite clearly simply saying that it _could_ be the case. *Anything could be the case.*You obviously are privy to information which I do not have; lucky you. That's all. And I have never considered myself to be ridiculous...and don't know why you should think this is the case as you do not know me. Chill out, please do, and be polite which I always try to be.* Did you hear these people shouting? Were you there? No*, Neither was I!!


"Anything_ could_ be the case?" Oh, I do agree. Remain voters COULD be pretending to be racist Brexiters to give all Brexiters a bad name. And little green men from Mars COULD have tampered with the referendum vote to give us a leave result... But neither seems very likely to me.

* "Did you hear these people shouting? Were you there? No"  * I don't see how you can know this unless you have employed someone to follow me constantly, and bug my phone so that you can monitor all my calls as well. (That doesn't seem very likely either, but if you have, they are not doing a very good job as I can confirm that I have heard several of these comments for myself! )


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> "Anything_ could_ be the case?" Oh, I do agree. Remain voters COULD be pretending to be racist Brexiters to give all Brexiters a bad name. And little green men from Mars COULD have tampered with the referendum vote to give us a leave result... But neither seems very likely to me.
> 
> * "Did you hear these people shouting? Were you there? No"  * I don't see how you can know this unless you have employed someone to follow me constantly, and bug my phone so that you can monitor all my calls as well. (That doesn't seem very likely either, but if you have, they are not doing a very good job as I can confirm that I have heard several of these comments for myself! )


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Meanwhile...Spain promised to block Scotland's bid for EU...
> One can guess what what was promised by Britain in exchange...
> 
> Any homes available for family of five plus two furries and fish tank?
> May contain some Polish....


This is very sad and was avoidable this time last week.

We should work together yet hardly surprising the hostility now showing from other countries. I passionately support the EU and all it stands for, yet recognise mistakes have been made. All this scaremongering about integration into a superstate had we remained.

I wonder why people were so frightened of this, was it patriotic reasons? The EU never planned to ban the Union Jack and national anthem, as with other countries. Royalists didn't need to worry either. Countries like Holland and Sweden have a monarchy. At times like these we need to stick together, not break apart.

Now this division and uncertainty. We're going abroad soon, will we be met with hostile reaction due to others thinking Farage is our leader who we look up to?

Welcome back to the bad old days, some may think is a good thing of course. But in the 21st century we should be looking forward, not backwards.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> "Anything_ could_ be the case?" Oh, I do agree. Remain voters COULD be pretending to be racist Brexiters to give all Brexiters a bad name. And little green men from Mars COULD have tampered with the referendum vote to give us a leave result... But neither seems very likely to me.
> 
> * "Did you hear these people shouting? Were you there? No"  * I don't see how you can know this unless you have employed someone to follow me constantly, and bug my phone so that you can monitor all my calls as well. (That doesn't seem very likely either, but if you have, they are not doing a very good job as I can confirm that I have heard several of these comments for myself! )


@CuddleMonster Forget it... I will now put you on ''ignore'' so I do not have to read your uninformed rubbish any longer. You are implying that you were there and heard and saw the events? Do I believe you...ha...take a guess. As you did not give an example, I assume that is a figment of your upset imagination. I am invariably polite on this forum and will never waste my time on someone trying to score points and be clever. This is a FORUM...do you know what a forum is (I suggest you look it up)? It is a place where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do not have to agree with yours and neither do you have to agree with mine. But I would never try to belittle you for your opinion as you are doing with mine. If you disagree with me, I suggest you do it politely (which you seem to be incapable of doing). I was not rude to you.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Calvine said:


> Forget it... I will put you on ''ignore'' so I do not have to read your uninformed rubbish. You are implying that you were there and heard and saw the events? Do I believe you...take a guess.


Please do put me on ignore - I'd rather not communicate with someone who implies I am a liar. You obviously believe that either abuse does not exist or that it only exists if someone manages to film it and put it on Facebook. You are welcome to your view.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

The mods have better things to do and it would be very disappointing to have a thread closed. Thank you.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

MollySmith said:


> The mods have better things to do and it would be very disappointing to have a thread closed. Thank you.


Sorry, I didn't want to upset anyone with my comments, but it's hard enough to listen to people saying horrible things about immigrants, without being accused of lying about hearing them.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

I just noticed that of the respondents to this thread, 52% voted leave. 4% voted leave and now regret so doing. It's an irrelevantly small sample I know but were this to be extrapolated to the wider electorate and the referendum re-run, the brexit result would be exactly reversed.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Lol!!!!
> @porps is an immigrant...
> In Finland...
> 
> Google "Finland"...


*Sweden, but close enough (my Swedish friends would hate to hear me say that )



Colliebarmy said:


> how did your region vote?


I assume all the British migrants living in Europe voted remain if they got to vote- i know many didn't receive thier postal vote in time due to the way the last batch of applications was administered... But it's not like we didn't know before then so our fault i suppose.

Manchester, my former region, voted to remain from what i can gather, though by a tighter margin than was expected.



> with regards to all the posts about friendships becoming strained, too many to quote them all...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm the immigrant of Finland Scrippy.

The two countries are almost divided by a stretch of water known as the Gulf of Bothnia which is north of/to the Baltic Sea. 
The body of water separates the West of Finland from the East of Sweden and prevents them from throwing stones at each other.

Of course they can all drive to the border in the very north and throw stones at each other from there if they really want to.:Watching

Another East/West conflict in the making￼


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely brilliant Nouska.
> 
> I'm old enough to remember Mrs Thatcher's "The NHS is safe in our hands" speech after being crippled by spending cuts.
> 
> ...


Thank you x

Yes, never truer words were spoken! Though a tory himself, John Major was definitely speaking the truth on that particular occasion lol



Colliebarmy said:


> this planet has had many ice ages, can we blame mammoths for some?


Oh I see where you were going when you said you had the heating on now:Hilarious

You think because the 'weather' here is cold we're heading for another ice age. Now you're confusing weather with climate lol 'Global temperatures' are through the roof - not cooling. The ice caps are in melt down!

Don't be a flat earther all your life - WAKE UP CB. It will soon be too late.




















rottiepointerhouse said:


> [QUOTE="noushka05, post: 1064581809, member: 2189"
> 
> But the prime minister and the chancellor are tories (obviously ) and they were fronting the campaign to remain more so than the labour leadership so I'm not really sure where party politics comes into this debate. I know YOU vote having listened to the people you trust and agree with, likewise I made my own mind up therefore we should give other people the benefit of the doubt and stop assuming that everyone votes according to the Sun or what Nigel Farage says. I don't trust politicians full stop anymore and haven't for a long time. When it comes down to it Blair was hardly a shining example of an honest and altruistic leader was he?


.[/QUOTE]

Obviously  And the PM & the chancellor are also pathological liars - more fool anyone who listens to any of them. I subscribe to progressive politics, not the politics of hate, fear, spin, greed & selfishness. The labour party, along with the Greens, the SNP, Plaid Cymru were in all in the progressive camp, focusing on far more important things than 'immigration'. And we were warned a vote for brexit would see a rise in racial hate crimes & a rise in the far right everywhere.

Yes, I did put my trust in experts. And I saw not a single credible expert or NGO endorse brexit. And if I had seen a minority of trustworthy individuals &/or Independent institutions I would always go with the overwhelming consensus anyway. I was never seeking out confirmation bias, I just wanted to make the best decision for the environment - and that would ultimately benefit us all.

Whenever the tories are criticized you always seem to drag Blair into it  Why? lol Have you ever seen me defend him? No! He is another selfserving neoliberal - like the rest of the right wing politicians. Utterly vile. Thatchers 'greatest achievement'. Says it all. He adopted her cruel neoliberal ideology - which is now ripping the labour party apart. One thing however, even his 'new' labour didn't abandon the vulnerable like this abhorrent government has, they didn't create the suffering & abject poverty we see in Britain today - the tories did that with their austerity lie. . And that isn't me being some apologist for new labour - that is just being truthful.

You didn't answer my question though, RPH. What other issues were you & others voting out for if non of the above? I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Zaros said:


> I'm the immigrant of Finland Scrippy.
> 
> The two countries are almost divided by a stretch of water known as the Gulf of Bothnia which is north of/to the Baltic Sea.
> The body of water separates the West of Finland from the East of Sweden and prevents them from throwing stones at each other.
> ...


@porps @ zaros apologies...
I would be happy in any of them...
Both beautiful places.
Been to Sweden as I used to live close...

Neither I want to trigger another war!!..

But I am afraid you can find Farage in every country...even small...
If they became leaders it clearly shows that leaders of that country lost people's trust.

Is Cameron happy now that he used referendum to win election?

Is BJ celebrating that he won Leave?
Or Gove?


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> @porps @ zaros apologies...
> I would be happy in any of them...
> Both beautiful places.
> Been to Sweden as I used to live close...
> ...


Absolutely right, the far right nationalist SD party continues to do increasingly well in Swedish politics, unfortunately, and i assume it's the same all over Europe. Everywhere there are people who are convinced that they are bearing the brunt of immigration rather than enjoying an exchange of citizens and culture, an attitude that the mainstream media actively promotes and forments.. It's very sad to me. Sadly i think it will take an alien invasion for people to realise we are all just earthlings.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hanwombat said:


> I don't regret voting leave but it pains me to hear that some people only voted leave as they didn't think we would actually leave.
> 
> I am also very disgusted at the racist backlash to a lot of people it seems. I read a story this morning about a man who is having to walk around with his passport to prove he is british - how terrible that he feels the need to do this.
> 
> I live in Peterborough currently and a lot of polish people live here, in my cul-de-sac alone there are more 'foreign' people as opposed to British but that doesn't bother me in the slightly. If anything, a lot of the jobless..useless.. loud.. rude.. people that I sometimes meet around where I live are British !!


I have a Polish friend whose Polish friends have been attacked verbally in the streets of Cambridge, told they are no longer wanted. Ridiculous! But I also cannot believe how childish a lot of the remainers are being, even organising a march through London to shout that they want to stay. In other words, they believe in democracy when it suits them. Pathetic. Both these things prove that a lot of people don't have the intelligence to vote on anything.

I voted leave, I don't regret it one little bit, but I am quite sure if the remainers had won I wouldn't be stamping my feet like a spoilt toddler who can't their own way. Did I march on London the three times Tony Blair got voted into office against my vote? No, I just knuckled down and accepted it. Now he is opening his mouth saying 'we don't really have to leave' - typical Blair; if you don't like the outcome, change the rules.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I have a Polish friend whose Polish friends have been attacked verbally in the streets of Cambridge, told they are no longer wanted. Ridiculous! But I also cannot believe how childish a lot of the remainers are being, even organising a march through London to shout that they want to stay. In other words, they believe in democracy when it suits them. Pathetic. Both these things prove that a lot of people don't have the intelligence to vote on anything.
> 
> I voted leave, I don't regret it one little bit, but I am quite sure if the remainers had won I wouldn't be stamping my feet like a spoilt toddler who can't their own way. Did I march on London the three times Tony Blair got voted into office against my vote? No, I just knuckled down and accepted it. Now he is opening his mouth saying 'we don't really have to leave' - typical Blair; if you don't like the outcome, change the rules.


You can get another election. Another Euro 
We will not be another Gibraltar.

London might lose lots of jobs , whole lot of them depends on EU..

There is No going back!!!

Once frontier is closed or our sovereignty handed to Spain...

That is the END.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> @porps @ zaros apologies...
> I would be happy in any of them...
> Both beautiful places.
> Been to Sweden as I used to live close...
> ...


Mrs Gove must be very twitchy - did you see the news about her email?


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I* have a Polish friend whose Polish friends have been attacked verbally in the streets of Cambridge*, told they are no longer wanted. Ridiculous! But I also cannot believe how childish a lot of the remainers are being, even organising a march through London to shout that they want to stay. In other words, they believe in democracy when it suits them. Pathetic. Both these things prove that a lot of people don't have the intelligence to vote on anything.
> 
> I voted leave, I don't regret it one little bit, but I am quite sure if the remainers had won I wouldn't be stamping my feet like a spoilt toddler who can't their own way. Did I march on London the three times Tony Blair got voted into office against my vote? No, I just knuckled down and accepted it. Now he is opening his mouth saying 'we don't really have to leave' - typical Blair; if you don't like the outcome, change the rules.


I am genuinely saddened by that. I'll not comment much the rest as I don't want to make a mods life difficult on here, I started this thread for genuine interest not to create a thread to be locked down, but just to say that much of the solidarity I've seen was at a rally on Tuesday night in Cambridge.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Catharinem said:


> Or to put it another way, British meat, eggs and veg can now be sold at a price that reflects the time and energy put in to its production, and the much higher welfare standards of British farm animals to many EU ones, and not forced into a price war with producers churning out mass produced, low welfare, meat, eggs and milk.
> 
> If vegetarians have a problem with British livestock farmers, spare a thought for livestock raised in places like France. Google "French farmers". I was trying to find a particular article, but before I'd even put in "burning sheep alive" Google found this as the 3rd option of French farmers: " French farmers burning sheep". Yes, French farmers hijacked lorries of live sheep and set fire to them, burning sheep and lambs alive. Some were also poisoned or had their throats slit. These were French *farmers*, that knew full well the suffering they caused, yet were capable of torturing sheep to death for their own political and financial gains. I am shaking here, and feeling sick.
> 
> ...


Good luck with that. Under an even more extreme tory government, intent on getting rid of whats left of the red tape, I fear animal welfare standards here are going to plumb new depths. Praying I'm wrong, but their record instils me with dread. Time will tell.



MollySmith said:


> I admire your attempt. Well done
> 
> Shame that I've read this from Professor Scott Lucas, University of Birmingham (which concurs with much of the opinions from the Cambridge Science Park, itself a world leader in research) "*The Large Hadron Collider, the world's largest particle accelerator, was only possible through international approach to collaboration*. The envisaged upgrade to the machine in the next 15 years, requiring hundreds of millions of pounds, will rest even more on co-operation rather than a national venture.
> 
> ...


One can but try lol

Terrible. Science, medicine, technology are all going to suffer now - and as you say - this will affect us all.

The tories attack on the renewables industry has already been catastrophic. Brexit has only made things worse - https://www.theguardian.com/environ...transition-to-clean-energy-harder-say-experts

More worrying news -


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Good luck with that. Under an even more extreme tory government, intent on getting rid of whats left of the red tape, I fear animal welfare standards here are going to plumb new depths. Praying I'm wrong, but their record instils me with dread. Time will tell.
> 
> One can but try lol
> 
> ...


I can't say I'd have ever voted Tory for animal welfare (let's not get started on fox hunting...)

I have to say that I am learning much more online about the effects on science and medicine since the vote than before it. I was aware of articles and perhaps more aware working and living where I do, but that's not to say this place is the hub of all research, it goes all all over the UK.

I wonder if that's the same for everyone on here - did you all know about the EU funded research programmes in science and medicine before you voted?


----------



## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

It just gets better and better . If they have to go to these lengths, they can't have much confidence their side are going to win.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...go-to-police-over-death-threats-after-refusa/


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

porps said:


> *Sweden, but close enough (my Swedish friends would hate to hear me say that )
> 
> I assume all the British migrants living in Europe voted remain if they got to vote- i know many didn't receive thier postal vote in time due to the way the last batch of applications was administered... But it's not like we didn't know before then so our fault i suppose.
> 
> Manchester, my former region, voted to remain from what i can gather, though by a tighter margin than was expected.


I love this Porps.

You would be surprised to hear how some British people living abroad voted. The news asked some migrants from Britain who now live in Spain, quite a few voted leave, the said it was time for us to be standing on our own again and be Great Britain without Europe. I'm not really sure what they are doing living in Europe though.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Charity said:


> It just gets better and better . If they have to go to these lengths, they can't have much confidence their side are going to win.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...go-to-police-over-death-threats-after-refusa/


I read that they are trying to find a suitable candidate that didn't vote for the Iraq war, because of Chilcot, but are coming up with nothing.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

. Did I march on London the three times Tony Blair got voted into office against my vote? No, I just knuckled down and accepted it.


Fair comment but you could vote out a politician or party after five years.

This is a lifetime issue with no going back.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> I love this Porps.
> 
> You would be surprised to hear how some British people living abroad voted. The news asked some migrants from Britain who now live in Spain, quite a few voted leave, the said it was time for us to be standing on our own again and be Great Britain without Europe. I'm not really sure what they are doing living in Europe though.


Incredible!!!!


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

porps said:


> *Sweden, but close enough (my Swedish friends would hate to hear me say that )
> 
> I assume all the British migrants living in Europe voted remain if they got to vote- i know many didn't receive thier postal vote in time due to the way the last batch of applications was administered... But it's not like we didn't know before then so our fault i suppose.
> 
> Manchester, my former region, voted to remain from what i can gather, though by a tighter margin than was expected.


Continued.......

Piglet: "Pooh, does your arrogance know no limits?"
Pooh: "What do you mean Piglet?"
Piglet: "Hasn't even the smallest probability that my views might be reasonable, occurred to you?"
Pooh: "I don't understand."
Piglet: "Well your whole diatribe was basically explaining to me that we can't be friends because I was wrong and you were right"
Pooh: "Yes, but you were wrong"
Piglet: "I respect your analysis of the situation we voted in Pooh but mine was different. It is a complex issue. We both voted for the option that we believe will work out best for our Sixty Acre Wood and the world in general. We just have a different perspective as to the best solution. It's not that one was right and one was wrong."
Pooh: "Except I was right and you were wrong, why can't you grasp that? Oh, and you are a tiggerist sympathiser."

With friends like Pooh, who needs enemies.


----------



## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I just wanted to say thank you to all who reassured me yesterday.

I did go, I arrived late, however the subject cam up later. This is a group of very mixed ages, one woman was over the moon, another who supported it passionately was downcast, I believe it has something to do with her situation with her daughter who is having trouble with selling her house as it is, it's about to be repossessed if she cannot find a buyer quickly and it's worth over £1 million, so it's hard enough to find a buyer.

I didn't speak about it, only when it was suggested Boris would be the man for the PM job, I calmly stated that if a man has be fired two times by the press for lying, he isn't a truth-worthy person to run the country. But I kept my cool. I expected worse, after all when one of them had said Enoch Powell was right all those years ago, what do you expect?

Anyway, I'm going tech free for a while now, I had been doing so before and will again for my own health and sanity, I'm going to avoid much of this for no and burying my head in the sand for a bit. 
So thanks to you all.


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Good luck with that. Under an even more extreme tory government, intent on getting rid of whats left of the red tape, I fear animal welfare standards here are going to plumb new depths. Praying I'm wrong, but their record instils me with dread. Time will tell.
> 
> One can but try lol


The problem with EU red tape is that countries can request exemptions, or implement in different timeframes. Hence some countries within EU are still producing battery eggs, which obviously are cheaper to produce than higher welfare. I'm hoping this will remove the unfair advantage of other EU countries which don't play by the rules, and lead to British customers paying a fair price for their food. If this leads to meat or eggs being eaten in smaller quantities or less frequently during the week, this can only be a good thing for our own health. No body needs a fry up for breakfast, egg mayo sarni for lunch and steak and chips for supper.

The French farmers who could set fire to sheep trapped in lorries are subhuman ( I do have French freinds). Being a member of the EU makes no difference to how livestock farmers, handlers and hauliers behave on a day to day basis, they either have a sympathy for animals or not. I don't beleive any farmer ( whatever nationality) who could do that is following the rules at his own farm, behind closed gates.

This burning of sheep alive was a while back, yet French farmers are still trying to force the hand of their government, only last year attacking British lorries carrying British produce, and destroying it: not much respect for the value of food there. Also spraying manure on town halls and creating road blocks of burning tyres ( not very environmentally freindly!). Far from having the full force of the law thrown at them, their government awarded €500 million! That protest, organised by their farming union, is in stark contrast to British farmers politely handing out free milk to supermarket customers.

It does show how this whole referendum issue is not black at white, doesn't it? Both you and I are passionate about animal welfare, yet we voted differently, both doing what we beleived to be right.

Others, equally passionate about different issues, will have voted the way they beleived right.

Now we need to be aware of the dangers, as well as rewards, and help get this country back on an even keel.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Thank you x
> 
> Yes, never truer words were spoken! Though a tory himself, John Major was definitely speaking the truth on that particular occasion lol
> 
> ...


Obviously  And the PM & the chancellor are also pathological liars - more fool anyone who listens to any of them. I subscribe to progressive politics, not the politics of hate, fear, spin, greed & selfishness. The labour party, along with the Greens, the SNP, Plaid Cymru were in all in the progressive camp, focusing on far more important things than 'immigration'. And we were warned a vote for brexit would see a rise in racial hate crimes & a rise in the far right everywhere.

Yes, I did put my trust in experts. And I saw not a single credible expert or NGO endorse brexit. And if I had seen a minority of trustworthy individuals &/or Independent institutions I would always go with the overwhelming consensus anyway. I was never seeking out confirmation bias, I just wanted to make the best decision for the environment - and that would ultimately benefit us all.

Whenever the tories are criticized you always seem to drag Blair into it  Why? lol Have you ever seen me defend him? No! He is another selfserving neoliberal - like the rest of the right wing politicians. Utterly vile. Thatchers 'greatest achievement'. Says it all. He adopted her cruel neoliberal ideology - which is now ripping the labour party apart. One thing however, even his 'new' labour didn't abandon the vulnerable like this abhorrent government has, they didn't create the suffering & abject poverty we see in Britain today - the tories did that with their austerity lie. . And that isn't me being some apologist for new labour - that is just being truthful.

You didn't answer my question though, RPH. What other issues were you & others voting out for if non of the above? I'm genuinely curious.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I didn't realise you were asking me a question - thought it was just a general musing and I have answered the question already somewhere in the many pages on the subject we have running at the moment. I can't speak for others as I'm sure all 17 million had a different combination of reasons. My reasons were varied, I don't want to be part of a European state (the unification process), I have huge concerns about Turkey joining and also concerns about future problems with being asked to bail out other countries with failing economies. Whilst I am not against immigration I am against free movement, firstly because how the hell do you plan the needs for housing/health care and education when you have no idea how many people are going to come - how do we know how many would want to come from Turkey for instance? Secondly I think we should be allowed a say in who comes here, both on the employment front and on the humanitarian front - if we have no say in how many EU immigrants we have then we have less resources to take and help immigrants from non EU countries.

As for me dragging Tony Blair into things, its only natural if you specify the Tories rather than the wider group of politicians I'm going to point out that Labour have their fair share of dishonest self serving slime bags too and at the moment they don't seem to be doing too well on following the wishes of their members by trying to oust their democratically elected leader.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Obviously  And the PM & the chancellor are also pathological liars ....


Think the point made was claims of a "Safe NHS" and of course the pledge to give the 350million saved on leaving the EU to the NHS, which even they admit was wrong.

Many believed this and voted Leave accordingly.

I certainly don't think Mr Cameron and Mr Osbourne are pathological liars. I personally backed them and other Remain Conservatives during the referendum. They spoke a lot of sense in my view.

Certainly the Conservatives don't lie when it comes to issues such as reducing the top rate of tax for millionaires as an example!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

porps said:


> Absolutely right, the far right nationalist SD party continues to do increasingly well in Swedish politics, unfortunately, and i assume it's the same all over Europe. Everywhere there are people who are convinced that they are bearing the brunt of immigration rather than enjoying an exchange of citizens and culture, an attitude that the mainstream media actively promotes and forments.. It's very sad to me. *Sadly i think it will take an alien invasion for people to realise we are all just earthlings*.


And it came to pass that a great confusion was experienced by all earthlings when the visitors requested they be taken to their leader?:Facepalm


----------



## Guest (Jun 30, 2016)

porps said:


> Absolutely right, the far right nationalist SD party continues to do increasingly well in Swedish politics, unfortunately, and i assume it's the same all over Europe. Everywhere there are people who are convinced that they are bearing the brunt of immigration rather than enjoying an exchange of citizens and culture, an attitude that the mainstream media actively promotes and forments.. It's very sad to me. Sadly i think it will take an alien invasion for people to realise we are all just earthlings.


Far right nationalism is doing frighteningly well here in the US as well. It's scary times. Apparently no one reads their history books


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> Think the point made was claims of a "Safe NHS" and of course the pledge to give the 350million saved on leaving the EU to the NHS, which even they admit was wrong.
> 
> Many believed this and voted Leave accordingly.
> 
> ...


Yes I get that. I was simply pointing out that saying all Tories are liars and using the 350 million saved example didn't make sense because the two top Tories were on the opposite side of the argument (to remain in the EU). I don't know how you (in general) can say you never believe anything the Tories say but magically believe what Cameron and Osborne were saying when it suits your argument


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know how you (in general) can say you never believe anything the Tories say but magically believe what Cameron and Osborne were saying when it suits your argument


Fair point I suppose!

I've always liked Micheal Heseltine, best Tory PM we never had, when he bravely stood up against Margaret Thatcher. He always comes over as a strong passionate person.

Perhaps you're right, there's a lot of dishonesty in politics and was unfair of me to exclusively accuse the Conservative party of this. The Lib Dem pledge on tuition fees is another example that comes to mind.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, CatharineM:

Not sure I accept the argument [that un-civilized actions could well receive a winning margin, if put to a vote, in certain
societies / nations]: for instance, *I wouldn't imagine many women would vote FOR [female] genital mutilation*.

Of course, if (women) can't vote (on the issue), then that's not really a democratic vote, is it?

/QUOTE
.
.
Sadly, i'm afraid U'd be proved wrong, if it was put to a vote.  Young girls are often cut by women; when a man cuts them, often mothers, aunts, older sisters, etc, restrain the girls.
Many women who've been cut firmly believe that intact women can't control themselves & will inevitably shame their families, via sexual activity - before marriage, or after, with men other than their husbands. They literally think lust is a constant pressure on any woman with an intact clitoris.
.
Considering how many men i can look at & think, _"Eewww..." , _they must have *very *low criteria.
(And yes, I'm heterosexual, if anybody's wondering.)
.
Add to that the additional number of men who simply don't interest me - they don't turn me off, but neither do they attract me - & it's a pretty small percentage for potential sexual partners, 'cuz CONTENTS matter.
.
A pretty face or body is bonus; i get intrigued by his thoughts, actions, heart, brains, humor.
I like congruence - if he says X & does Y, not good. I like compassion. Men who sport-hunt to hang a trophy on the wall?... not my cuppa. I like ethics. Money is nice - but how did he get it?
I find guys who can't talk about anything but sports deadly boring. I like readers - if he brags that he's never read ONE book that wasn't 'required', i'll pass, right then & there.
If his favorite music is rap, it's unlikely we'll have much in common.
.
I don't think i'm very unusual in having specific things I want or prefer in a prospective sexual partner, & besides a perceived lack or objectionable trait, every time i've been deeply connected to a specific man, i'm immunized against random attractions. Other men aren't "him", so they're automatically much-less interesting.
.
I'm perfectly capable of having casual male friends, valued co-workers, & intimate male friends & none of them are past or potential sexual partners.
I'd find women who are instantly smitten with random male passerby to be pretty strange, personally; i've met a few woman who claimed to be consumed by lust at the mere sight of a specific handsome stranger, but so far, all of them were joking. No woman i've known has bedded a guy -only- because they thought he was cute.
There was always something in addition to 'cute', & usually lots of somethings.
.
Men, OTOH... i've known men who would, as the saying goes, sc*ew anything that had a hole in it, including the knothole in a board. If genital mutilation is supposedly to prevent adultery & infidelity, men are more-apropos candidates, as a gender, than women or girls.
Am i suggesting men should be mutilated?... NO. Merely pointing out that the rationale is very weak, & in fact, is not supported by the facts available.
.
But in countries or regions where it's practiced, many women - & not only grandmothers - advocate it.
.
.
.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Catharinem said:


> The problem with EU red tape is that countries can request exemptions, or implement in different timeframes. Hence some countries within EU are still producing battery eggs, which obviously are cheaper to produce than higher welfare. I'm hoping this will remove the unfair advantage of other EU countries which don't play by the rules, and lead to British customers paying a fair price for their food. If this leads to meat or eggs being eaten in smaller quantities or less frequently during the week, this can only be a good thing for our own health. No body needs a fry up for breakfast, egg mayo sarni for lunch and steak and chips for supper.
> 
> The French farmers who could set fire to sheep trapped in lorries are subhuman ( I do have French freinds). Being a member of the EU makes no difference to how livestock farmers, handlers and hauliers behave on a day to day basis, they either have a sympathy for animals or not. I don't beleive any farmer ( whatever nationality) who could do that is following the rules at his own farm, behind closed gates.
> 
> ...


Without a progressive government in the EU & here I personally don't see animal welfare improving. While other EU member states have been going forwards with improving animal welfare we have been going backwards. Have you seen CIWFs article & where we need to go from here? At least they are sounding hopeful . The tories represent big industry so I suspect it will take pressure from excellent farmers like yourself to persuade the government to improve standards. Without legislation how would it be enforced though?

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2016/06/uk-voters-say-were-out

The EU also protected our bees by banning neonicotinoids. The tories opposed the ban & has already caved into pressure from the NFU to allow farmers limited use of the deadly bee killer. With no EU constraints, free from red tape. what hope is there for our bees & pollinators?.

I don't know if you know of Miles King? He is a conservationist who writes a brilliant blog. I thought this might interest you & wondered what are your thoughts on his ideas Catherine?

https://anewnatureblog.wordpress.co...l-thoughts-on-a-post-cap-farm-subsidy-system/



MollySmith said:


> I* can't say I'd have ever voted Tory for animal welfare (let's not get started on fox hunting...)*
> 
> I have to say that I am learning much more online about the effects on science and medicine since the vote than before it. I was aware of articles and perhaps more aware working and living where I do, but that's not to say this place is the hub of all research, it goes all all over the UK.
> 
> I wonder if that's the same for everyone on here - did you all know about the EU funded research programmes in science and medicine before you voted?


No, neither would I Molly. The tories record on animal welfare is absolutely abysmal.

I didn't know about the EU funding for research on science & medicine. Its a great shame people weren't made aware of things like this. Maybe we'd still be in if they had been. Instead the whole thing was framed around immigration. .



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry I didn't realise you were asking me a question - thought it was just a general musing and I have answered the question already somewhere in the many pages on the subject we have running at the moment. I can't speak for others as I'm sure all 17 million had a different combination of reasons. My reasons were varied, I don't want to be part of a European state (the unification process), I have huge concerns about Turkey joining and also concerns about future problems with being asked to bail out other countries with failing economies. Whilst I am not against immigration I am against free movement, firstly because how the hell do you plan the needs for housing/health care and education when you have no idea how many people are going to come - how do we know how many would want to come from Turkey for instance? Secondly I think we should be allowed a say in who comes here, both on the employment front and on the humanitarian front - if we have no say in how many EU immigrants we have then we have less resources to take and help immigrants from non EU countries.
> 
> As for me dragging Tony Blair into things, its only natural if you specify the Tories rather than the wider group of politicians I'm going to point out that Labour have their fair share of dishonest self serving slime bags too and at the moment they don't seem to be doing too well on following the wishes of their members by trying to oust their democratically elected leader
> .


Ok, thank you  So concern about immigration & the impact on public services were two important factors for you then. As I said in my previous post, immigration is not the cause of the problems RPH - the tories are crippling public services through cuts. Ironically its actually the party you support that are to blame not migrants lol Same for housing. You're far more likely to be treated by a migrant in a gps surgery than be behind one in a queue. Migrants have been the convenient scapegoat for this government & the brexit camp - clearly people fell for it.

. (And I can provide references if required?)

The facts about Turkey - it has many boxes to tick before it will be allowed into the EU. And even then Britain could have vetoed.






*Stop migration scaremongering over Turkey*
Nigel Farage and Michael Gove say Turkey is about to join Europe.

What they don't say is that it would first need to prove it is a modern European democracy. That means ticking 35 boxes on everything from human rights to the economy. Even then, we or any of the other 27 members could just say no.

Turkey applied to join nearly 30 years ago, in 1987. Since then, it has ticked just one. At this rate, it will join the EU in 986 years. In the year 3002!

Tony Blair hasn't been in power for years. He was vile. We both condemn him. The tories are in power now. The whole tory cabinet are rotten to the core. . Like Blair they are warmongers. With their policies they have inflicted immense suffering to millions of vulnerable people in this country. Yet I don't ever recall ever you acknowledge these facts or condemn these cruel people.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I get that. I was simply pointing out that saying all Tories are liars and using the 350 million saved example didn't make sense because the two top Tories were on the opposite side of the argument (to remain in the EU). I don't know how you (in general) can say you never believe anything the Tories say but magically believe what Cameron and Osborne were saying when it suits your argument


I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I'm answering anyway lol Cameron & Osborne may well speak the truth on occasion. But I was brought up to never trust a liar - & these two are serial liars, I never believe a word that comes out of their mouths. Hence why I fact check everything first to see if its just more of their spin & lies of if indeed they are telling the truth.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

So back to the subject of any regrets. This from the news today:

"I don't think it's Vote Leave's job to provide figures," Cummings announced triumphantly.

"But Vote Leave quotes numerous figures on its website," said Tyrie, "Most of them misleading or inaccurate."

"Accuracy is for snake-oil pussies," Cummings hissed. "And besides, I've got a really bad memory."

Then

"It's just a matter of a few decimal points," Cummings said (on the economics of budget saving).

"There are quite a lot of decimal points between £33bn and £16bn," Tyrie pointed out.

"When you're sitting in your slippers chatting to Mrs Tyrie..." Cummings diverged.​
_Cummings is the Vote Leave campaign director. Andrew Tyrie is chair of the Treasury select committee...
_
I find this account astonishing. It's reported in different forms fairly widely this morning (and thus I assume has to be accurate). I genuinely feel true empathy for anyone who thought that leave would be a better option if they now feel that they been dragged into a political game without knowing the rules or the players.

That's really all I can think that it is - I honestly cannot fathom any reasons.

I'd hoped so much that the figures were correct if I didn't wholeheartedly and ethically agree with the leave campaign reasoning (and likely swayed by a pathological hatred of Johnson and Farage way before Johnson f****d off.) Ethics are, after all often personal. But a week on, with all these reveals, I keep reading, researching and conclude that innocent people were being encouraged to make a life changing vote because of distance politicians ugly aims.

It's utterly disgusting.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> No, neither would I Molly. The tories record on animal welfare is absolutely abysmal.
> 
> I didn't know about the EU funding for research on science & medicine. Its a great shame people weren't made aware of things like this. Maybe we'd still be in if they had been. Instead the whole thing was framed around immigration. .


The figures on science and medicine were in our local press and, from attending the protest march on Tuesday here, it was very much the reasons why Cambridge voted 73% to stay. It was made very clear to us by leading academics whose voices were really drowned out. I trust them far far more than any politican which is why my posts quote them not either side in the campaign.

Successive governments have been consistently poor, so this isn't a party issue, more that we have a reliance on EU funding. It's all very well the lies about the £350m but what struck me was that there were no plans on how to plug this funding gap. I cannot be the only person who thinks prevention is better than cure?

*Research into cancer, dementia, autism, dyspraxia, dyslexia and other life affecting problems have all been pioneered in this country with EU funding without exception*. I've taken the time in this past few weeks (before the vote as that's always prudent…) to check.

We speak often on here about mental health and I'd think that most of us have been affected in some form. The UK funding is only 5.5%, the rest by the European Commission public health. *Up until 2013, the UK received over £700million of funding for medical research projects from the European Union's FP7 programme; more than any other EU country. *This research will help to prevent problems and I don't know about you, but I'd never wish what me and my mum have been through on anyone.

An additional £60 billion of funding has now been made available to EU countries through the successor Horizon 2020 programme. We needed to remain in the EU so we can compete for and win much more of those funds for mental health research.

I did not think that losing access to this funding was worth risking.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> The figures on science and medicine were in our local press and, from attending the protest march on Tuesday here, it was very much the reasons why Cambridge voted 73% to stay. It was made very clear to us by leading academics whose voices were really drowned out. I trust them far far more than any politican which is why my posts quote them not either side in the campaign.


But think of all the curly cucumbers you will now be able to buy in the shops! .....


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Without a progressive government in the EU & here I personally don't see animal welfare improving. While other EU member states have been going forwards with improving animal welfare we have been going backwards. Have you seen CIWFs article & where we need to go from here? At least they are sounding hopeful . The tories represent big industry so I suspect it will take pressure from excellent farmers like yourself to persuade the government to improve standards. Without legislation how would it be enforced though?
> 
> http://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2016/06/uk-voters-say-were-out


I read it differently, as an opportunity to push animal welfare forwards now free from EU legal constraints. 
They have been pushing for mandatory labelling of meat and dairy production methods, yet only eggs need labelling at present time. 
Under EU law, it would be illegal to ban the export of live animals to Europe. Now we can ban it.
I'm not certain to what they were referring when saying Britain no longer had to follow EU policies and could therefore work on cutting antibiotic routine use. Maybe large units have different policies, on a small scale I only use when needed. But CIWF see exit from EU as an opportunity, "before it is too late".
Changes for the better: " we must see this as an opportunity to encourage the UK government to make changes for the better "

I'll read the other article a bit later Noush, got to see a lamb about a bottle!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

shadowmare said:


> But think of all the curly cucumbers you will now be able to buy in the shops! .....


Laugh or we cry?

You forget I shop locally and grown my own so I have always bought organic, ugly and cheaper veg.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

A very good blog that I really recommend, comparing Brexit voting to other critical voting processes. No wonder we had no idea!

https://medium.com/@kirstymhall/brexit-was-a-con-67532113a7c#.sa1ztr2h4

A few highlights if you CBA'd to click on another link

And since active campaigning using official funds didn't start until April 15th 2016, for many people, the window to find out about the issues involved was actually closer to 10 weeks.

Compare that to Indyref where the referendum date of 18th September 2014 was announced almost a full 18 months before the actual date, although public discussion had been ongoing since January 2012, slow at first and then increasingly engaged.

…………..

But then Brexit was never about the whole of the UK and Gibraltar examining the issues and deciding what was best.

Because you simply cannot drill down into such a complex issue in that short amount of time. It is impossible.

And that is why such vitally important issues like what would happen to the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland in the event of Brexit were simply glossed over and ignored. No one had the time to process how things would actually WORK. There was no time to go over the details with a fine-toothed comb.

Over and over I heard from undecided people, 'why are we being asked this, I don't feel like I know enough about it, it's all so complicated, how on earth do I decide what's best?'

*****

During the Scottish independence referendum, the Scottish SNP government published Scotland's Future, a document laying out how an independent Scotland would work and addressing issues such as finance, the EU, currency and other issues.

It was a 670 page document and published a whole 10 MONTHS before the referendum and it was meticulously analysed point-by-point by both voters and the press. It was very thoroughly put under the microscope and in the end found slightly wanting, mostly on the issues of currency and the ability of an independent Scotland to retain membership of the EU.

It was made abundantly clear to voters that it was a big decision and if they were going to vote for Yes For Change and risk destabilising their country, they had better be very sure.

In contrast, the Vote Leave campaign published one 16 page pdf manifesto on their website. Did you read it? I never even heard about it.

16 pages obviously isn't nearly as many as 670, so clearly it wasn't going to be as detailed as the Scottish document.

Then I looked at the thing and it's all in VERY. BIG. WRITING. So I downloaded it. There are 1293 words in the entire document. That's it. That's all.

I read it. It does not mention Northern Ireland. There is no plan for Scotland. Indeed, there is no plan for anywhere or anything really. Just buzzwords, statistics that were called out by those much-despised experts for being misleading to the point of being lies and lots of racist dog whistles.

Should you wish to examine it yourself, it is available here: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case

In the briefing section of their website, there are 15 other sections on topics like fishing, security and finances.

Oh great, I thought, maybe there will be more detail here.

But no, they are much the same, full of assertions about how bad the EU is but with little to no detail about how Brexit would work in the real world.

I checked the Security page on the Vote Leave website. It is a whole 1474 words long and some of those are website navigation! And it doesn't mention the border with Northern Ireland and how that would be treated in the event of Brexit. Not once.

There was certainly nothing that was in any way comparable to the Scotland's Future document.

If the SNP had attempted a referendum with as little information as Vote Leave did, they would have been laughed out the door and eviscerated in the press. So why wasn't Vote Leave?​


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Without a progressive government in the EU & here I personally don't see animal welfare improving. While other EU member states have been going forwards with improving animal welfare we have been going backwards. Have you seen CIWFs article & where we need to go from here? At least they are sounding hopeful . The tories represent big industry so I suspect it will take pressure from excellent farmers like yourself to persuade the government to improve standards. Without legislation how would it be enforced though?
> 
> http://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2016/06/uk-voters-say-were-out
> 
> ...


Not true Noushka, you actually know yourself because you provided the links for me to lobby my own MP about some of the recent changes they wanted to bring in to disability benefits, you also know because you provided me with the links that I supported the camps set up against the badger cull and you may or may not remember that I was outraged when they voted to bomb Syria and took part in the threads on here about why I thought it was wrong.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Catharinem said:


> I read it differently, as an opportunity to push animal welfare forwards now free from EU legal constraints.
> They have been pushing for mandatory labelling of meat and dairy production methods, yet only eggs need labelling at present time.
> Under EU law, it would be illegal to ban the export of live animals to Europe. Now we can ban it.
> I'm not certain to what they were referring when saying Britain no longer had to follow EU policies and could therefore work on cutting antibiotic routine use. Maybe large units have different policies, on a small scale I only use when needed. But CIWF see exit from EU as an opportunity, "before it is too late".
> ...


No, that's how I interpreted the CIWF article too. Sorry for the confusion. Banning live exports isn't going to be that simple. This government has lost leadership on animal welfare In or out of the EU we can't rely on them to stop live exports - hence why we need a progressive government.

CIWFs latest - http://www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/06/what-will-brexit-mean-for-animal-welfare
*
What will Brexit mean for animal welfare?*

In view of our charity status, we have remained neutral on the issue of the UK leaving or remaining a member of the European Union (EU).

We have been watching developments carefully since the Referendum to head off new threats and seize new opportunities for animal welfare.

The big question many of you are now asking is, what will Brexit mean for farm animal welfare? Will it improve welfare standards or lower them?

The honest answer is it's difficult to know.

*Will Brexit mean an end to live exports?*
An exit from the EU is no guarantee of a UK ban on major areas of welfare concern such as so-called 'enriched' battery cages for hens or live animal exports.

In recent times, the UK government has shown little appetite for improving farm animal welfare.

However, the key question now is how might an exit from the EU change things?

*Trade and animal welfare*
One of the big influences on a government's attitude toward issues like animal welfare is the trading environment.

Although Brexit will mean that EU rules no longer apply, the UK's new trading relationships will affect the degree to which the UK will feel it is willing to enact welfare improvements unilaterally.

The EU will remain a key trading market for the UK, but what rules will be put in place to regulate it?

In terms of what a new trading relationship might look like, there are a number of options.









Will the UK government now ban 'enriched' battery cages?

A trade agreement between the UK and the EU as a whole could be one option. This may well prevent the UK from restricting imports produced to lower welfare standards. A long-standing justification for governments to procrastinate on ending cruel practices is fear that domestic farming might be undermined by cheap imports produced to lower standards.

Another option could be a European Economic Area (EEA) style agreement in a similar vein to Norway. This too is a free movement arrangement for goods and services and is unlikely to allow the UK to restrict lower welfare imports.

A series of bi-lateral agreements with former EU partners could also be considered. The scope for improving farm animal welfare here would depend on how much priority the UK gave to welfare in its negotiations, for example, by insisting on agreements that might allow the UK to restrict lower welfare imports.

If none of the above agreements are reached the UK's trade relationships would be governed by the rules of the World Trade Organisation (WTO). These are not as tough as EU free trade rules but they do represent a significant obstacle to restricting cheap imports produced to lower welfare standards.

These developments could result in the UK government being reluctant to introduce welfare improvements for fear of cheaper imports undermining the nation's farming industry.

A big question mark therefore remains over whether new trading relationships will actually benefit animals by making the UK government more open to improving animal welfare

*What happens to existing law?*
The other big question is what will happen to the UK's existing law?

Most UK law on farm animal welfare is based on EU law. The UK will have to decide which of these provisions to retain. Farming bodies will probably press for some to be diluted. We will oppose such moves. We will also oppose attempts to replace legislation with industry codes of practice, something we see as akin to letting the fox guard the hen house.

We will certainly continue to press for proper enforcement of existing bans, like that on the routine cutting of pigs' tails, something which remains poorly enforced in both Britain and across the European continent.

The EU's controversial farm subsidy system, the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), will no longer apply in Britain post Brexit. It will be up to the UK to provide subsidies for farmers. We will press for subsidies to be primarily used for public goods i.e. for elements such as animal welfare and environmental protection which cannot, or can only partially, be provided by the market.

*Defra's Plan for the future of food and farming*
Defra intended to publish its 25 year plan on the future of food and farming in March, but then postponed it until after the Referendum. This focuses primarily on productivity, competitiveness and agri-tech. It largely ignores welfare, the environment and public health. In our view, the current plan would lead to further industrialisation of farming and more factory farming in Britain.

Whatever now happens in the changing political landscape of Britain and Europe, Compassion will continue to provide the strongest voice for better farm animal welfare.
.
*Your support will be needed now more than ever*

Ok, thank you. Hope your lamb enjoyed the bottle 



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not true Noushka, you actually know yourself because you provided the links for me to lobby my own MP about some of the recent changes they wanted to bring in to disability benefits, you also know because you provided me with the links that I supported the camps set up against the badger cull and you may or may not remember that I was outraged when they voted to bomb Syria and took part in the threads on here about why I thought it was wrong.


Apologies to you then RPH, I had forgotten these occasions. All their many injustices must be exposed & never excused or played down imo . The tories should be held accountable for their terrible ideological policies. For the millions of lives they have ruined lives & the country they have divided. I lived through the miners strike, my Dad was a miner. For a year he had no pay when Maggie tried to starve us into submission. But this government frighten me far more than Thatchers ever did. This government is sinister.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> No, that's how I interpreted the CIWF article too. Sorry for the confusion. Banning live exports isn't going to be that simple. This government has lost leadership on animal welfare In or out of the EU we can't rely on them to stop live exports - hence why we need a progressive government.
> 
> CIWFs latest - http://www.ciwf.org.uk/philip-lymbery/blog/2016/06/what-will-brexit-mean-for-animal-welfare
> *
> ...


Liked for the apology not the bit about Maggie 

As for animal welfare - time we all went vegan anyway, save the NHS millions of pounds, feed far more people and prevent untold animal suffering all in one swoop


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> As for animal welfare - time we all went vegan anyway, save the NHS millions of pounds, feed far more people and prevent untold animal suffering all in one swoop


Is that organic vegan, or will we be using insecticides / artificial fertiliser to produce food crops ? If organic, what natural fertiliser would you use if not manure? Of course you could get derogations to apply treated human sewage, but in many countries there aren't even flush toilets,,let alone sewage treatment plants. 
How would you cultivate steep land?
What about indigenous peoples? 
Pest control? If you're going to kill rabbits/deer/warthogs etc isn't it a waste to let them rot?

Animal welfare is different to the meat eating/vegetarian /vegan debate. Meat animals can be kept well and killed cleanly if done properly, yet a vegan hoarder of "rescued" dogs and cats could cause untold suffering.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

The latest: Blair offered himself as negotiator for Brexit...just out of pure goodness of his heart.


We are in safe hands...what can go wrong.

( news from MSN...cheapo Mobil does no links!) quoted after The Telegraph....15 hours ago....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Is that organic vegan, or will we be using insecticides / artificial fertiliser to produce food crops ? If organic, what natural fertiliser would you use if not manure? Of course you could get derogations to apply treated human sewage, but in many countries there aren't even flush toilets,,let alone sewage treatment plants.
> How would you cultivate steep land?
> What about indigenous peoples?
> Pest control? If you're going to kill rabbits/deer/warthogs etc isn't it a waste to let them rot?
> ...


It was meant as a light hearted comment Catherine. I know animals "can" be kept well and killed cleanly - its not that long since I was still eating them myself (organic/free range) but of course just because they "can" doesn't mean they "are". Hoarders of any animal whether they are meat eaters/vegetarian or vegan, farmers or pet owners can cause suffering, no argument with you on that but I still think the world would be a better place if we all relied on animal products a lot less.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2016)

Catharinem said:


> Is that organic vegan, or will we be using insecticides / artificial fertiliser to produce food crops ? If organic, what natural fertiliser would you use if not manure? Of course you could get derogations to apply treated human sewage, but in many countries there aren't even flush toilets,,let alone sewage treatment plants.
> How would you cultivate steep land?
> What about indigenous peoples?
> Pest control? If you're going to kill rabbits/deer/warthogs etc isn't it a waste to let them rot?
> ...


I'm pretty sure RPH was being tongue in cheek when she said we should all go vegan (forgive me for speaking for you @rottiepointerhouse and apologies if I got it wrong).

That said, improving our diets (by eating fewer or no animal products among many other things) very much would save the NHS millions.

Your last paragraph is a ridiculous false dichotomy, you know that right? 
Why would a hoarder be vegan? How are those two even lumped together?

Of course meat animals can be kept well and killed humanely, but that's not what happens in reality. The reality is that the vast majority of meat is factory farmed in appalling conditions. The dairy industry is arguably worse.

There are good farms out there, but they are still very few and far between. If we would treat meat like the luxury it is, instead of thinking we need meat in every meal 3x a day 7 days a week, we might be able to go back to humanely farmed meat, but that is a long, long way off. 
In the meantime if people want to go vegan and source their meat for their dogs and cats from humane/ethical sources, I say more power to them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I'm pretty sure RPH was being tongue in cheek when she said we should all go vegan (forgive me for speaking for you @rottiepointerhouse and apologies if I got it wrong).
> 
> That said, improving our diets (by eating fewer or no animal products among many other things) very much would save the NHS millions.
> 
> ...


cross posted and yes I was being tongue in cheek


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Yes, didn't take it seriously, just replying back to point you made.

Totally agree we need to be less reliant on animal products.

Ouesi, I didn't mean hoarders had to be vegans, that would be silly! But that just as a farmer can raise meat animals in high welfare conditions, so an animal loving vegan who got in over her (or his) head could cause suffering through lack of knowledge /blindness to the situation.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2016)

Catharinem said:


> Yes, didn't take it seriously, just replying back to point you made.
> 
> Totally agree we need to be less reliant on animal products.
> 
> Ouesi, I didn't mean hoarders had to be vegans, that would be silly! But that just as a farmer can raise meat animals in high welfare conditions, so an animal loving vegan who got in over her (or his) head could cause suffering through lack of knowledge /blindness to the situation.


Yeah, it's still a false dichotomy. 
Being vegan doesn't mean you're kind to animals, it just means you don't consume animal products. 
Being a farmer doesn't mean you're unkind to animals, it just means you farm. 
There really aren't any absolutes in animal welfare. To me it's on a continuum where humane is one one side, inhumane on the other, and you simply try to keep moving towards humane.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Just did some stats: So 36 Pf members voted to Leave and stand by it.
4 regret it.
1 voted Remain but regrets it ( didn't know Theresa May is on this forum!)

Most Remain camp accounted for...

Where are the missing 50 Leavers?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> As for animal welfare - time we all went vegan anyway, save the NHS millions of pounds, feed far more people and prevent untold animal suffering all in one swoop





ouesi said:


> Yeah, it's still a false dichotomy.
> Being vegan doesn't mean you're kind to animals, it just means you don't consume animal products.
> Being a farmer doesn't mean you're unkind to animals, it just means you farm.
> There really aren't any absolutes in animal welfare. To me it's on a continuum where humane is one one side, inhumane on the other, and you simply try to keep moving towards humane.


Top quote, by rottiepointerhouse, implied ( or was read by me to imply) that going vegan reduced animal suffering.

Being vegan doesn't mean you're kind to animals, just not consume animal products, as you rightly pointed out. However, many people become vegan because they do love animals and feel it is a way they can reduce animal suffering ( as per rottiepointerhouse paragraph).

I am agreeing with you about the continuous spectrum. Farmers can be good or bad at welfare, vegans don't all have to be animal lovers. Just as a farmer may have high welfare standards, so a well meaning vegan can cause suffering. Hence " time we all went vegan anyway...and prevent untold animal suffering" is the false dichotomy.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

cheekyscrip said:


> Just did some stats: So 36 Pf members voted to Leave and stand by it.
> 4 regret it.
> 1 voted Remain but regrets it ( didn't know Theresa May is on this forum!)
> 
> ...


They left!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Just did some stats: So 36 Pf members voted to Leave and stand by it.
> 4 regret it.
> 1 voted Remain but regrets it ( didn't know Theresa May is on this forum!)
> 
> ...


Probably bored with the subject :Yawn


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2016)

Catharinem said:


> Hence " time we all went vegan anyway...and prevent untold animal suffering" is the false dichotomy.


To be pedantic, you have to have to have two options to create a dichotomy. 
And as already mentioned, that was a tongue in cheek comment.

I think suffice it to say we both care about animal welfare and call it good


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Just did some stats: So 36 Pf members voted to Leave and stand by it.
> 4 regret it.
> 1 voted Remain but regrets it ( didn't know Theresa May is on this forum!)
> 
> ...


Busy counting their winnings?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Top quote, by rottiepointerhouse, implied ( or was read by me to imply) that going vegan reduced animal suffering.
> 
> Being vegan doesn't mean you're kind to animals, just not consume animal products, as you rightly pointed out. However, many people become vegan because they do love animals and feel it is a way they can reduce animal suffering ( as per rottiepointerhouse paragraph).
> 
> I am agreeing with you about the continuous spectrum. Farmers can be good or bad at welfare, vegans don't all have to be animal lovers. Just as a farmer may have high welfare standards, so a well meaning vegan can cause suffering. Hence " time we all went vegan anyway...and prevent untold animal suffering" is the false dichotomy.


Although it was a light hearted comment Catherine and I fully acknowledge you are an ethical farmer I do think more people reducing or giving up animal products would reduce animal suffering because there would not be the demand for such high volumes of meat and dairy produce therefore less animals would be needed therefore less would suffer the indignity and horror of our modern farming methods. Anyway I went plant based more for health reasons as like I say I ethically sourced the small amounts of meat we did eat.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> Probably bored with the subject :Yawn


Nail on the head


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2016)

Hanwombat said:


> Nail on the head


yes, but is the nail in or out? :Hilarious


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

ouesi said:


> yes, but is the nail in or out? :Hilarious


or do you shake it all about :Smuggrin


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## CanIgoHome (Oct 25, 2008)

I voted leave and stand by it but it sadden me that some people can be so narrow mind and racist and think every foreigner should leave now

my oh works with a few foreigner and on the night/morning it came out we had leave
he had not gone to work
work phone him to find out whats going on
he told then he'd packed his bags that morning and was waiting for immigration to knock on his door and take him away friday morning
his work place have taken the mick out of him for it

its sad to think that the one who work here are the ones that think there are going to be shipped back


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

I found it quite funny the other day when it suddenly dawned on a load of leave voters from FB dog training group that it may affect the pet passport scheme lol

"You mean if we want rid of of them immagrunts we can't take Tyson to Magaluf" pmsl


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

="cheekyscrip, post: 1064583756, member: 35195"]The latest: Blair offered himself as negotiator for Brexit...just out of pure goodness of his heart.


We are in safe hands...what can go wrong
-----------
Rather him that Nigel Farage who appears to have put himself forward on behalf of the people of his glorious nation, or at least that what he thinks.....

It was Farage's referendum after all.....


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> "Accuracy is for snake-oil pussies," Cummings hissed. "And besides, I've got a really bad memory."​


​
Jeezus, is that true?!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> Laugh or we cry?
> 
> You forget I shop locally and grown my own so I have always bought organic, ugly and cheaper veg.


I think @shadowmare was being facetious; that's how I read it, anyway!


----------



## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

Hanwombat said:


> Because people are morons sadly and I guess they just did it as a 'joke' vote somewhat ? and didn't actually realise that it contributed to the UK leaving the EU when they didn't think it would actually happen.
> 
> TBH I fully expected Remain to win, so I myself was shocked that Leave won.


These are the same sort of people that voted for Barrack Obama thinking America would never have a black president.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

ouesi said:


> To be pedantic, you have to have to have two options to create a dichotomy.
> And as already mentioned, that was a tongue in cheek comment.
> 
> I think suffice it to say we both care about animal welfare and call it good


Fine by me.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Although it was a light hearted comment Catherine and I fully acknowledge you are an ethical farmer I do think more people reducing or giving up animal products would reduce animal suffering because there would not be the demand for such high volumes of meat and dairy produce therefore less animals would be needed therefore less would suffer the indignity and horror of our modern farming methods. Anyway I went plant based more for health reasons as like I say I ethically sourced the small amounts of meat we did eat.


Oh, I agree about cutting down, and sourcing from small, local, farmers.

You know I've been nicking recipe ideas from your vegan thread! Yummy some of them too. 
Then Noush makes me feel guilty about coconuts!

How's your knees now?


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Oh, I agree about cutting down, and sourcing from small, local, farmers.
> 
> You know I've been nicking recipe ideas from your vegan thread! Yummy some of them too.
> Then Noush makes me feel guilty about coconuts!
> ...


Amazing thank you for asking. I'm walking the dogs with no knee braces on, running up and down the stairs and have been doing some planting in the garden this week with no pain which I would not have believed a couple of months ago.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)




----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Satori said:


> Busy counting their winnings?


Oh yes...they put good money into Boris's campaign..but surely broke more than even....

Others possibly chasing after him...

Never saw leader leaving his troops in such haste...after victory...lolol..as on the news today...


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


>


Just not in public..Someone might bop you on the head and pack you on a boat to EU....packed with French bulldogs, German shepherds, PONs and all that riffraff...immigrants.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I think @shadowmare was being facetious; that's how I read it, anyway!


Yes belatedly I realise this, sorry @shadowmare! I was thunderously angry at Gail Force stage, but now a light south westerly blowing in someone from France. Or something, I have had some wine.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Just not in public..Someone might bop you on the head and pack you on a boat to EU....packed with French bulldogs, German shepherds, PONs and all that riffraff...immigrants.


Oh you wishful thinker, you


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)




----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Just not in public..Someone might bop you on the head and pack you on a boat to EU....packed with French bulldogs, German shepherds, PONs and all that riffraff...immigrants.


You applying for one of these?


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> ​
> Jeezus, is that true?!


Yes this is all true, quoted from several news sources including the Guardian. Sorry, it's shocking isn't it?


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


>


Just because Boris said jump, you really don't have to you know.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Just because Boris said jump, you really don't have to you know.


Jump off the SS Europe before she runs aground, when we leave can Germany make up our contributions to hand out to Spain, Greece and Portugal and Poland?


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

yet it ISNT the regular suspects who suck the most out of the EU, Poland for instance, a country with a massive coal mining industry while the UK has to import coal from.....
*
Coal mining in Poland* produced 144 million metric tons of coal in 2012, providing 55 percent of that country's primary energy consumption, and 75 percent of electrical generation. Poland is the second-largest coal-mining country in Europe, after Germany, and the ninth-largest coal producer in the world.

EU givers and takers


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> yet it ISNT the regular suspects who suck the most out of the EU, Poland for instance, a country with a massive coal mining industry while the UK has to import coal from.....
> *
> Coal mining in Poland* produced 144 million metric tons of coal in 2012, providing 55 percent of that country's primary energy consumption, and 75 percent of electrical generation. Poland is the second-largest coal-mining country in Europe, after Germany, and the ninth-largest coal producer in the world.
> 
> EU givers and takers


So now all those dogs on the boats are because of those pesky miners?
Who mine in Poland instead of roofing in UK?

Unbelievable!!!

How dare they!!!


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> Jump off the SS Europe before she runs aground, when we leave can Germany make up our contributions to hand out to Spain, Greece and Portugal and Poland?


Get off where you like, can you please take Van Halen with you.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Liked for the apology not the bit about Maggie
> 
> As for animal welfare - time we all went vegan anyway, save the NHS millions of pounds, feed far more people and prevent untold animal suffering all in one swoop


LOL I wont argue with you about everyone going vegan - I could argue about Maggie though



Catharinem said:


> Is that organic vegan, or will we be using insecticides / artificial fertiliser to produce food crops ? If organic, what natural fertiliser would you use if not manure? Of course you could get derogations to apply treated human sewage, but in many countries there aren't even flush toilets,,let alone sewage treatment plants.
> How would you cultivate steep land?
> What about indigenous peoples?
> Pest control? If you're going to kill rabbits/deer/warthogs etc isn't it a waste to let them rot?
> ...


Without getting into a debate & putting aside the welfare aspect & so on, livestock farming is one of the greatest threats to our living world & one of the biggest contributors to global warming. We live on a finite planet - we must drastically cut our meat & dairy consumption. So the more vegans the better! lol



Colliebarmy said:


> yet it ISNT the regular suspects who suck the most out of the EU, Poland for instance, a country with a massive coal mining industry while the UK has to import coal from.....
> *
> Coal mining in Poland* produced 144 million metric tons of coal in 2012, providing 55 percent of that country's primary energy consumption, and 75 percent of electrical generation. Poland is the second-largest coal-mining country in Europe, after Germany, and the ninth-largest coal producer in the world.
> 
> EU givers and takers


We should be making the switch to renewable energy definitely not burning coal.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

MollySmith said:


> Get off where you like, can you please take Van Halen with you.


Oh...those sly EU immigrants. They cause problems even when they stay put.
Take into consideration before you start deportation.
They would go and mine even more.
Ungrateful wretches.
Taking over our dream jobs nine hour no toilet shifts in sweatshop called [email protected]###.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Got this from my local Asda this morning when food shopping.

You wanna know something? It's bloody lovely!


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Got this from my local Asda this morning when food shopping.
> 
> You wanna know something? It's bloody lovely!
> View attachment 275987


You should come to the source.
Must say they have might good sausages and beer like Żywiec is not bad.

But the best bread in the world is from Lithuania. Baked on horseradish leaves.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Got this from my local Asda this morning when food shopping.
> 
> You wanna know something? It's bloody lovely!
> View attachment 275987


Oh looks lovely. There's a thing in Cambridge called a Food Assembly. They are held all over the UK and you can order your food in advance through a food assembly website, pay and then collect it from suppliers. There's no mark up and it's about bringing growers, bakers and makers face to face with customers but without the hassle of carrying cash or paying by card. Most collection points are in pubs or cafes.

Anyway, I digress. There is the most Amazing Polish baker who makes all sorts of lovely breads. And a Latvian baker who makes filled rolls called Pīrāgi which are something else awesome. I love how our food has changed. If it wasn't for migration, might we still be eating spam?!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Mr Gizmo:

These [BrExit voters in the UK, who voted 'Leave' as a joke] are the same sort of people [as those voters in the USA]
that voted for Barrack Obama, thinking America would never have a black president. 

/QUOTE
.
.
Really. ___ >.< ___ O.O ___ >.<
What percentage of Prez Obama's votes would U ascribe to _"just joking!..." _:-D voters, Gizmo?
1 in 100? 1 in 20? -- I have never seen this suggestion made in any media, anywhere, before.
Where was it hatched - between Ur own ears?
.
Prez Obama was not only elected - the 1st time - but _*re-elected*_, by over 51% of the popular vote.
He's the first POTUS to exceed 51% twice in a row since Dwight Eisenhower, over 50 years before.
.
Even Ronnie RayGun, darling of the media, only achieved 50.75% in 1980's re-election.
.
.
Feel free to confirm this - the Jan 4, 2013 issue of _U.S.News & World Report_ has extensive analysis & documentation of who voted, how. Obama won 26 states, plus the D of C, with 65M, 444Th, 241 popular votes - the District of Columbia is not a "state", it's home-base for the nation's capitol.
That gave him 332 votes in the Electoral College - an asinine, outdated mechanism that interferes between the popular vote & actual office.
.
Mittens, his primary opponent - the Republican candidate - won 206 electoral votes, with 60M, 587Th, 978 popular votes.
.
Which election(s) do U think "jokers" voted in, only his initial run? - Only his re-election?
or are they so incurably stoopid that they voted for him "as a joke" in both, election & re-election?
.
Inquiring minds, or at least this particular inquiring mind, would love to know where & how this particular hypothesis arose.
.
In every Prez election, voters who are frustrated with the process or disgusted by both / all choices vote write-in votes for anyone - from Mickey Mouse to their local school-board member. Such protest votes have been common since at least the 1900s, but no-one has ever alleged that any voter seriously wants Alfred E Newman or Kilroy or Mae West or Cher as POTUS.
.
It's interesting & more than a little disturbing that the only "POTUS votes" for actual candidates that are being labeled as 'jokes' are for a black candidate / black incumbent.
And i know U can't see this, so i'll tell U - i'm not laughing, i didn't get the joke.
.
.
.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Bumping this up - with the recent world events (businesses affected by Brexit, Trump, Farage's Brexit Bad Boys and his monetary issues), do you regret your vote either way?


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

No. I just regret not campaigning harder.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> Bumping this up - with the recent world events (businesses affected by Brexit, Trump, Farage's Brexit Bad Boys and his monetary issues), do you regret your vote either way?


No regrets. I would still vote leave.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Definitely not. I'm more certain than ever that I did the right thing by voting remain.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Thanks both, interesting.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

No, would still vote to leave, have heard nothing since that makes me feel any differently.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

For the record, I have no regrets about voting to Remain. 

However I am concered about the amount of fake news from all sides that affected the outcome. It seems fairly clear that there was a lot around and mostly conjured up by people who want to give evidence or kudos to their opinions but that this became messed up with actual words or twisted. That's really dangerous.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't regret voting leave because of Trump or the fact that people feel Brexit influenced the election.

However, I regret that there was no plan or no discussion of the type of Brexit that would follow .


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I think you need a new poll. This one seems closed


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@rona It might be because you've already voted . The thread was started back in June


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Definitely not. I'm more certain than ever that I did the right thing by voting remain.


Ditto.


----------



## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

It was a difficult choice for me, but eventually I voted remain because I feared that leave would result in:

1) An increase in aggression toward ethnic minorities, particularly refugees
2) Greater difficulty for EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in other EU countries
3) Us becoming too close to America, particularly if Donald Trump became president

Sadly, at the moment, all three fears have been justified. I continue to hope for better things once Brexit has actually happened. So no, no regrets as to my vote, just regret that Brexit won, but I hope to be proved wrong in the end.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

I didn’t vote in the UK referendum obviously, but I can say that it saddens me to see such a rise in nationalism throughout Europe and the US. 
OTOH, I’m also very heartened to see the voice of those who oppose this trend getting louder and louder.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I wonder how many regret it now.

Do you trust Trump to give us anything that actually benefits us more than him and those who back him up?

I wonder how I could do more to stop Brexit...


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

It's still too early to tell really.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> I wonder how I could do more to stop Brexit...


 You can't stop it @cheekyscrip . Parliament have voted against all of the amendments last night presented yesterday. Alex Salmond lost his temper and shouted at Madame speaker (He almost got thrown out of Parliament) as well at the end as the amendments yesterday got voted against so have been rejected including the SNP's amendments. Round two today


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> You can't stop it @cheekyscrip . Parliament have voted against all of the amendments last night presented yesterday. Alex Salmond lost his temper and shouted at Madame speaker (He almost got thrown out of Parliament) as well at the end as the amendments yesterday got voted against so have been rejected including the SNP's amendments. Round two today


That does not stop me.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> It was a difficult choice for me, but eventually I voted remain because I feared that leave would result in:
> 
> 1) An increase in aggression toward ethnic minorities, particularly refugees
> 2) Greater difficulty for EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in other EU countries
> ...


I think that's so well put @CuddleMonster I feel that it and I genuinely hope that the aims and reasons of the _sensible_ PF'ers who voted to leave are correct and I am proved wrong.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I do not regret voting out one bit

I still think it will be a better future for my gtandchildren

I just regret other people did not respect my views and called us leavers nasty names because they lost


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

As each day passes I am more proud of voting remain than ever.

Seeing what many dismissed as "project fear" become a reality, a never before seen far right Tory government, Trump presidency and how the leave vote has encouraged far right groups in Europe come to the surface hoping for the same.

Still, good things have resulted such as the growing opposition to all this.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> As each day passes I am more proud of voting remain than ever.
> 
> Seeing what many dismissed as "project fear" become a reality, a never before seen far right Tory government, Trump presidency and how the leave vote has encouraged far right groups in Europe come to the surface hoping for the same.
> 
> Still, good things have resulted such as the growing opposition to all this.


In my humble opinion the rise of the far right has been prompted by the usual mass of "middle ground" voters around the world feeling their fears and concerns are not listened to by politicians and that if they dare to voice their opinion they are labelled as racist/sexist/brain washed and lacking in intelligence. This has been going on for years (like Gordon Brown calling the elderly labour voter a bigot for daring to ask him a question about immigration) so those people in the middle are now being forced into moving to the left or moving to the right which has been extremely divisive. This is also demonstrated on this forum where the same old same old allegations about brain washing/sheep/racism etc are directed at anyone who voted to leave the EU. Bigots come in many forms, shapes and sizes and on both sides of these debates


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

Watching this thread with interest ... or maybe morbid curiosity.

As an EU immigrant myself living in the U.K. (Don't shoot me all at once!) I did not get a vote. I am very saddened about what's happening around the world in general and also quite worried about my own future in this country specifically. I have lived and worked here for 18 years now, been settled with my English boyfriend for 10, own my own house etc... yet I can't help being anxious about what may come.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> In my humble opinion the rise of the far right has been prompted by the usual mass of "middle ground" voters around the world feeling their fears and concerns are not listened to by politicians and that if they dare to voice their opinion they are labelled as racist/sexist/brain washed and lacking in intelligence.


I suppose you can argue those remain voters who think this way are "bigots" in their own right!

I'm not denying some might feel that way, but certainly not everyone in the same sense not all leave voters are racist etc.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> The thing is, from what I've seen has given some the "right" to express comments I personally find offensive when they didn't before. Such people, because I'm white English, believe I think like them. It comes as a surprise when I tell them otherwise.
> 
> Still, this thread is dedicated to whether they still back or regret their voting decision.


Thats life though, because I'm a woman I find many other women assume I want to slag off men and make sexist jokes about man flu etc, or I find some men think I want to hear them moaning about their partner or that I want to indulge in flirty talk with them, I found when we had horses every hunting b---stard I met thought I supported them - the list goes on. If someone assumes I am racist when they find out I voted to leave the EU then I put them straight, quickly and politely.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Rudydog said:


> Watching this thread with interest ... or maybe morbid curiosity.
> 
> As an EU immigrant myself living in the U.K. (Don't shoot me all at once!) I did not get a vote. I am very saddened about what's happening around the world in general and also quite worried about my own future in this country specifically. I have lived and worked here for 18 years now, been settled with my English boyfriend for 10, own my own house etc... yet I can't help being anxious about what may come.


A lot of EU immigrants on social media are saying the similar things. All I can say is how sorry I am you have been made to feel this way & I hope with all my heart common sense will prevail. x


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Rudydog said:


> Watching this thread with interest ... or maybe morbid curiosity.
> 
> As an EU immigrant myself living in the U.K. (Don't shoot me all at once!) I did not get a vote. I am very saddened about what's happening around the world in general and also quite worried about my own future in this country specifically. I have lived and worked here for 18 years now, been settled with my English boyfriend for 10, own my own house etc... yet I can't help being anxious about what may come.


There is no possible circumstance ever in which your rights of residence or any other inherited rights in the UK could be removed. A, the government doesn't want to do that. B, it would be illegal if they did. C. Even if it were legal and desired we don't have the capability to deport people. It takes 5 to 10 years to deport one single known terrorist so if the UK wanted to deport all innocent EU immigrants it would take about twenty million years.

Th UK government has been forced, mostly by Germany, to wait until after article 50 to negotiate inherited rights of residence but it will be an easily dispatched negotiation. The UK cannot easily survive the departure of EU immigrants and vice versa some parts of the EU and their UK expats.


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> A lot of EU immigrants on social media are saying the similar things. All I can say is how sorry I am you have been made to feel this way & I hope with all my heart common sense will prevail. x


Thank you for this! I can't even begin to tell you how it pi55es me off when people tell me that all will be ok and to stop worrying. How can I? Funilly enough those who say that are not affected. Sadly yes many of us are feeling the way I do.

This is my home (I feel this 100%) yet I am not sure if I will be able to stay and if I am what hoops I will be required to jump through to do so... never mind the fact that i have paid into this system ever since I arrived.

I don't even want to think about what might happen to my relationship if the worse were to happen. It breaks my heart


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

Satori said:


> There is no possible circumstance ever in which your rights of residence or any other inherited rights in the UK could be removed. A, the government doesn't want to do that. B, it would be illegal if they did. C. Even if it were legal and desired we don't have the capability to deport people. It takes 5 to 10 years to deport one single known terrorist so if the UK wanted to deport all innocent EU immigrants it would take about twenty million years.
> 
> Th UK government has been forced, mostly by Germany, to wait until after article 50 to negotiate inherited rights of residence but it will be an easily dispatched negotiation. The UK cannot easily survive the departure of EU immigrants and vice versa some parts of the EU and their UK expats.


I am guessing you're not in my situation... Can you not see how the meare fact that you are having to use the word 'deport' is incredibly worrying for anyone facing this uncertainty.

Why should I have to even be remotely concerned about my right to live here. I came here legally aged 19 and have worked and paid taxes in this country ever since I arrived. What will happen to my NI and state pension for starters?

I think it very easy to sit on the outside and say it will all be ok.

This is about how this is making people feel as much as the actually outcome.

Edited to add: sorry for being a bit spiky but this is an incredibly emotive subject for me


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Rudydog said:


> I am guessing you're not in my situation... Can you not see how the meare fact that you are having to use the word 'deport' is incredibly worrying for anyone facing this uncertainty.
> 
> Why should I have to even be remotely concerned about my right to live here. I came here legally aged 19 and have worked and paid taxes in this country ever since I arrived. What will happen to my NI and state pension for starters?
> 
> ...


Oh get over yourself FFS. I was merely pointing out some facts in order to help your anxiety. Shouldn't have wasted my time.


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

Satori said:


> Oh get over yourself FFS. I was merely pointing out some facts in order to help your anxiety. Shouldn't have wasted my time.


Get over myself?? Who died and made you king???


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Satori said:


> Oh get over yourself FFS. I was merely pointing out some facts in order to help your anxiety. Shouldn't have wasted my time.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Rudydog said:


> Thank you for this! I can't even begin to tell you how it pi55es me off when people tell me that all will be ok and to stop worrying. How can I? Funilly enough those who say that are not affected. Sadly yes many of us are feeling the way I do.
> 
> This is my home (I feel this 100%) yet I am not sure if I will be able to stay and if I am what hoops I will be required to jump through to do so... never mind the fact that i have paid into this system ever since I arrived.
> 
> I don't even want to think about what might happen to my relationship if the worse were to happen. It breaks my heart


Reading your post makes me feel sad, angry & ashamed. I can't begin to imagine what you must be going through. I hardly recognise this country anymore, its embarrassing. But just know have the support of a hell of a lot of people & they are fighting tooth & nail to stop this country self destructing. I don't know if you're aware, but there is a massive protest march planned for the 25th of March - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...est-uk-biggest-protest-march?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
I can see why any UK immigrant would be under a cloud of anxiety, stress, & apprehension -
just as any U-S immigrant is, right now, or for that matter, anyone in the U-S born female, or who's one of the 90% who aren't megawealthy & DON'T have inherited wealth nor do they own large chunks of corporations or huge personal assets that are protected from devaluation.
.
being both female AND poor, i'm feeling threatened from both sides -
if only i were black, Muslim, or a recent immigrant, i could have a triple-whammy & worry myself into an early grave.

God knows, the "values" embodied in our current POTUS are diametrically opposed to values long thought of as American national values:
diversity, freedom of religion, defense of the underdog, women's rights, minority rights, the irrreplaceable jewels of our national parks, & more.
.
Donnie apparently has no empathy for immigrants despite being a 1st-generation Amerikan of immigrant parents.
.
my ancestors came here during Ireland's Great Hunger & i'm deeply offended by the immigrant-bashing going on, & horrified by the resurgence of nationalism & "white rights".
The only "native Americans" ARE Native Americans, & we know just how well they've been treated & continue to be treated by the Federal & state Gov'ts.
The empowerment of bigotry, sexism, xenophobia, & divisive hatred unleashed by The Donald is terrifying.
.
who wants to see the KKK & far-right militias running recruitment drives?!...
not i, & no-one i care to spend time with.
It's a living nightmare.
.
.
.


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Reading your post makes me feel sad, angry & ashamed. I can't begin to imagine what you must be going through. I hardly recognise this country anymore, its embarrassing. But just know have the support of a hell of a lot of people & they are fighting tooth & nail to stop this country self destructing. I don't know if you're aware, but there is a massive protest march planned for the 25th of March - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...est-uk-biggest-protest-march?CMP=share_btn_tw


Again thank you for your kind words! And yes all the support is really heartening!

You do not need to feel ashamed though. You have nothing to be ashamed of. x

Unfortunately plenty of people who voted leave did it with the best intentions (given their own priorities obviously) and did not fully consider how this would affect some of us - I have a couple of friends in the leave camp. I do not resent them for it but I hope they can now see things from a different perspective knowing how I feel - I can honestly say having spoken to them about this at length that they naively did not consider how this would make me and many others feel and I know hand on heart this ill feeling was not their intention.

Ps: I shall definitely be at the protest in March


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Reading your post makes me feel sad, angry & ashamed. I can't begin to imagine what you must be going through. I hardly recognise this country anymore, its embarrassing. But just know have the support of a hell of a lot of people & they are fighting tooth & nail to stop this country self destructing. I don't know if you're aware, but there is a massive protest march planned for the 25th of March - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...est-uk-biggest-protest-march?CMP=share_btn_tw


I second this.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Rudydog said:


> Thank you for this! I can't even begin to tell you how it pi55es me off when people tell me that all will be ok and to stop worrying. How can I? Funilly enough those who say that are not affected. Sadly yes many of us are feeling the way I do.
> 
> This is my home (I feel this 100%) yet I am not sure if I will be able to stay and if I am what hoops I will be required to jump through to do so... never mind the fact that i have paid into this system ever since I arrived.
> 
> I don't even want to think about what might happen to my relationship if the worse were to happen. It breaks my heart


Just to say we are in the same boat @Rudydog 
I am Polish, married to British, three kids born with dual nationality.
I have British passport for over ten years now, I lived abroad for twenty.
I am lucky, because Gibraltar is quite tolerant.
But we all could be forced to move to UK as a result of closed frontier and changed legislation resulting in job loss.
I do not know what would happen then.
Definitely I do not feel welcome there.
OH for family reasons cannot move to Poland either.
Children feel awkward. They are old enough to follow the news.


----------



## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

I have no regrets voting to leave, and will not be changing my mind.


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

@cheekyscrip
It really is a worry isn't it.

I am French. Not that I have ever even considered moving back to France as I consider the UK my home but if I was ever forced to (legally, financially or otherwise) it would be a disaster for us, our relationship and our lives


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Rudydog said:


> @cheekyscrip
> It really is a worry isn't it.
> 
> I am French. Not that I have ever even considered moving back to France as I consider the UK my home but if I was ever forced to (legally, financially or otherwise) it would be a disaster for us, our relationship and our lives


It is this horrible feeling if you do not feel comfortable speaking your language on the street, you keep looking over your shoulder...

I do hope that people will realise where all this is going.
But at the moment it is hard.
Not just the legal aspects, those will get arranged. France have enough British expats who are happy there.
It is the deep feeling of not belonging anymore and that you overstayed your welcome.

Best maybe is to stand up to it and fight it.

Hope your partner is supportive.

In the end we all are just people.


----------



## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I certainly don't feel any less welcome after the EU vote. Perhaps because I avoid most newspaper media?


----------



## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Bisbow said:


> I just regret other people did not respect my views and *called us leavers nasty names* because they lost


I'd just like to point out that it isn't just the leavers who have been called nasty names. I've been called selfish, stupid, cowardly, greedy and even EVIL for voting remain (plus, of course, being endlessly referred to as a 'remoaner', although how saying that you regret the result but are hoping it will turn out well can be moaning is beyond me).  There has been so much abuse produced by both sides that I don't think either side can claim the moral high ground!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

On this forum ? I'm sorry to hear that. I remember that immediately after the Referendum , many remainers were making nasty comments on Twitter etc about those who voted leave. I think perhaps when that happens, then they will respond likewise and make comments back .


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> On this forum ? I'm sorry to hear that. I remember that immediately after the Referendum , *many remainers* were making nasty comments on Twitter etc about those who voted leave. I think perhaps when that happens, then they will respond likewise and make comments back .


Well I wasn't one of them, all I'll say is that I think many people were ill imformed, and the more I hear the more I'm proud I vote remain.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> I'd just like to point out that it isn't just the leavers who have been called nasty names. I've been called selfish, stupid, cowardly, greedy and even EVIL for voting remain (plus, of course, being endlessly referred to as a 'remoaner', although how saying that you regret the result but are hoping it will turn out well can be moaning is beyond me).  There has been so much abuse produced by both sides that I don't think either side can claim the moral high ground!


My regret is how this referendum as turned people against each other. I went to a local debate, very lively and interesting. Of course claims and counter claims being made on both sides, that is what you would expect at a debate. I felt proud of my fellow audience members when they objected strongly to a racist remark, the hall rung out with boo`s and shame on you calls, the other leave quest speakers said they disagreed with the comment.

A couple of days following the referendum my daughter was told she must be racist because she voted leave, she is not, she had sat next to me at the debate horrified at the racist comment. I had to take my elderly father to the doctors, the nurse asked how had he voted, as it happens he had been to poorly to leave the house on the 23rd June but he was very much into his politics and world affairs, he told her sadly not been able to vote but would have voted remain, she said she was really surprised at that and didn`t think someone of his age (WW2 veteran) would be a traitor to his country, I was sickened!

The campaign as a whole was piss poor and I don`t think anyone has won, certainly not the country.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I wasn't one of them, all I'll say is that I think many people were ill imformed, and the more I hear the more I'm proud I vote remain.


You said you were ashamed of Birmingham because they voted out and wanted to move to Scotland but that's generic so that's allowed I suppose .


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

3dogs2cats said:


> The campaign as a whole was piss poor and I don`t think anyone has won, certainly not the country.


 Yes indeed , badly thought out and no plan for Brexit . Cam has a lot to answer too. He should not have resigned , he should have taken responsibilty .


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

CuddleMonster said:


> I'd just like to point out that it isn't just the leavers who have been called nasty names. I've been called selfish, stupid, cowardly, greedy and even EVIL for voting remain (plus, of course, being endlessly referred to as a 'remoaner', although how saying that you regret the result but are hoping it will turn out well can be moaning is beyond me).  There has been so much abuse produced by both sides that I don't think either side can claim the moral high ground!


All to true I'm afraid
There is faults on both sides/ we have both been bullied Sorry


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Yes indeed. It's being accused of "Hating Britain" too because you voted remain and cannot rejoice at Brexit!

Makes you feel you're no longer welcome in your own country!

It certainly doesn't feel like it anymore.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Yes indeed , badly thought out and no plan for Brexit . Cam has a lot to answer too. He should not have resigned , he should have taken responsibilty .


OMG, you think that bungler should have been negotiating our way out of Europe? 



KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed. It's being accused of "Hating Britain" too because you voted remain and cannot rejoice at Brexit!


As I was the one that said this, I can categorically say that it wasn't about Brexit or the way you voted it was the way you run this country down at every opportunity.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rona said:


> As I was the one that said this, I can categorically say that it wasn't about Brexit or the way you voted it was the way you run this country down at every opportunity.


While I want to make it clear this wasn't a personal attack on yourself as you certainly weren't the only one to have said this, I believe many who support Brexit run the EU and Europe down.

You might think I'm running the country down but far from it. I just don't believe the UK should be a stand alone state isolated from the rest of Europe.

I'll always be European first and English second.

If you think that's anti British all I can say is you're entitled to your opinion.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> You said you were ashamed of Birmingham because they voted out and wanted to move to Scotland but that's generic so that's allowed I suppose .


I'm still a shamed that Birmingham vote out, I didn't think bummies were that daft, as for Scotland I'd still like to move there leave or stay but I can't afford to move, but France would be even better.

_edited for spelling_


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I'm still ashamed that Birmingham vote out, I didn't thhink bummies were that daft, as for Scotland I'd still like to move there leave or stay but I can't afford to move, but France ut be even better.


The cost of moving is so expensive . The south of France is beautiful , I loved it there.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> The cost of moving is so expensive . * The south of France is beautiful *, I loved it there.


Yes it is, we went there for about thirty years until my health failed and I can travel anymore, really miss it.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Yes it is, we went there for about thirty years until my health failed and I can travel anymore, really miss it.


Oh I see, That's a great shame .


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I voted to leave and the only thing I regret is that they are taking so long about it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
I feel truly sorry for those trapped in the middle by Brexit -
1st or 2nd generation immigrants, children of immigrants or children of parents from different countries, especially.
:-(
They may have no memories of their 'mother country' // 'fatherland' whatever, they may have been born in the UK - whichever nation, some part of it! -- & as far as their experience goes, Scotland, Wales, Gibralter, NI, the Falklands, or Britain, ***IS*** home... it's the only home they've known.
Suddenly ppl are saying they don't belong, "aren't British", 'Go home!', etc.
.
.
it's very reminiscent of the reaction in the 1940s & '50s to the children of mixed marriages, especially in U-S Southern states under Jim Crow discriminatory laws, where "one drop of black blood" made U "a ******", & meant everything in terms of education, social class, wages, what water fountain / bathrooms / restaurants U could eat in, whether or not U could rent a hotel room, vote, be treated at the local hospital, be on the downtown streets after dark, enter a bar [or be served / sold liquor], attend a "public" meeting, & more.
.
.
Maybe all the UK immigrants should take a page from the WW-1 era in the U-S:
beginning in 1915, U-S citizens with "German" names [Austrian, Dutch, Alsace, don't get picky] couldn't find jobs -suddenly the vacancy was filled.
Anyone with a vaguely-German sounding name might be not only fired without cause, but beaten up on the street.
.
so they changed their names -
2 or 3 generations of Schmidts became Smiths, Blumenthals became Bloomfields, & in my own family, Franz [Prussian] became France.
.
Perhaps all the Patels in the UK should become Petals, & the Sikorskies become Sykes.
:-(
Maybe there's no room for Rothschildes or Gudanovs or Ombingwas & Guptas & Armenians, Liberians, Bahamians, Wongs, Lees, Samsaras, Nakisatas, & Salazars.
.
.
but U can't turn the clock back, put a Tudor back on the throne, have no surnames but Norman, Frank, & Celt, & have half the popn blue-eyed.
That was then - this is now.
.
Still - if I were an immigrant with an ethnic surname, i'd be Anglicizing it, toot-sweet, & all my kids, too.
It takes at least some of the ammo away from the "UK for Brits!" brigade, especially during job searches or school applications, when the initial contact is via an anonymous, faceless form.
.
.
.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> I feel truly sorry for those trapped in the middle by Brexit -
> 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, children of immigrants or children of parents from different countries, especially.
> :-(
> ...


Anybody who shows such prejudice against people whose origins are not English, were doing so long before anyone ever thought of brexit. We never have any discriminatory laws, never had whites only anything, never had colour or race stated on our birth certificates. The ignorant who think a black face means immigrant are actually a minority here. A Polish friend of mine had some friends verbally abused in the street after the vote, but that was a small skirmish. Most of the immigrants here who have changed their names, have done so to aid the English who couldn't pronounce their original names. They got sick of hearing us twisting our tongues around 54 letter names, so shortened it to something easier or changed it altogether, but not many would change their surname.

I don't think anyone is caught in the middle of the brexit vote any more than they were before the vote, any more than they would have been had the vote gone the other way.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

leashedForLife said:


> It takes at least some of the ammo away from the "UK for Brits!" brigade, especially during job searches or school applications, when the initial contact is via an anonymous, faceless form.


If you go for a physiotherapy assessment in this country, or eye-screening, you are given an ethnicity form to fill out if you wish/not fill out if you don't wish. This isn't so they can ignore you if you claim to be Afro Caribbean or Asian or put you at the end of the queue. It is simply to ensure that ALL people are getting a fair crack of the whip.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Calvine said:


> If you go for a physiotherapy assessment in this country, or eye-screening, you are given an ethnicity form to fill out if you wish/not fill out if you don't wish. This isn't so they can ignore you if you claim to be Afro Caribbean or Asian or put you at the end of the queue. It is simply to ensure that ALL people are getting a fair crack of the whip.


That is true. I must admit, I don't like those little boxes, because I think while they are asking about ethnic groups, we will never be equal. But, as you say, it is also to ensure everyone is getting a fair go. I did get annoyed when my son's bike was stolen and a police officer on the phone asked me what colour he is. What the hell difference does that make?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> That is true. I must admit, I don't like those little boxes, because I think while they are asking about ethnic groups, we will never be equal. But, as you say, it is also to ensure everyone is getting a fair go. I did get annoyed when my son's bike was stolen and a police officer on the phone asked me what colour he is. What the hell difference does that make?


I thought in a medical setting the ethnicity question was because certain health conditions are seen more commonly in certain ethnic backgrounds?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I thought in a medical setting the ethnicity question was because certain health conditions are seen more commonly in certain ethnic backgrounds?


That is right, but those little boxes are on every single form one has to fill out. Completely unnecessary.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
yes, everything from diabetes to heart conditions, sickle-cell anemia, Tay-Sachs, & more, can be more or less common depending on Ur ethnic origin.
.
there are a number of health issues that are incredibly rare in the global popn, but far-more common in, say, Anasazy Jews or Old-order Amish or certain tribes in West Africa or Nordic families.
.
.
.


----------



## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> On this forum ? I'm sorry to hear that.


Not just on this forum, I was referring to life in general - face to face, facebook, email, in print... One of my 'friends' stayed up to hear the results, and as soon as she heard Brexit had won, she posted something on FB about how good it was all the cowardly, greedy people had lost!



3dogs2cats said:


> My regret is how this referendum as turned people against each other.
> 
> I don`t think anyone has won, certainly not the country.


I agree - in one way, it doesn't matter which side 'won' - the fact that people on both sides can be like this reflects really badly on our country. Reminds me a bit of the Trump debate - I've seen comments & cartoons from both sides that have made me wince at their cruelty and malice.



newfiesmum said:


> Anybody who shows such prejudice against people whose origins are not English, were doing so long before anyone ever thought of brexit.


I agree. What it has done is to make a small section of the population ( a very ignorant section, it must be said!) believe that their views have been validated/upheld. It's easy for those of us who are British born & bred with British names and pale skin, to say that Brexit won't affect immigrants or other ethnic groups, but it's very different for others. If I meet someone who is worried about their future post-Brexit, I try to express my sympathy and reassure them of my support - I don't feel I can tell them they have nothing to worry about, because I am not in their situation (and would probably feel anxious if I was)


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I am over the moon. No Amendments to the Governments Article 50 Bill in Houses of Parliament (the last time there was no Amendments on a bill was in 1914 about going to war later known as World War 1), the bill now goes to the house of Lords who have already said they will back it. I absolutely have no regrets in my decision in voting leave.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> I am over the moon. No Amendments to the Governments Article 50 Bill in Houses of Parliament (the last time there was no Amendments on a bill was in 1914 about going to war later known as World War 1), the bill now goes to the house of Lords who have already said they will back it. I absolutely have no regrets in my decision in voting leave.


You have probably gathered i voted leave, don't have any regrets & do agree with many of your views. However I personally can't rejoice at the total lack of opposition - simply because I don't believe its due to being behind leaving/the people have spoken/this is democracy. I feel its simply snouts in trough/jeez best stick together or we'll all be out & UKIP will wipe us out at next election there's simply no counter balance. Leaves me feeling uneasy - bit contrary I know but something doesn't feel right !


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

I gave hospitals simply as an example; my neighbour works for the council and all job applicants are sent an ethnicity form which they may fill out or not, as they wish. Apparently to ensure ''diversity''.


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## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Most certainly not.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I have no regrets about voting remain.

I have lots of concerns being married to a EU citizen - I am even more convinced than ever that the future of our family for the sake of our children is not in the UK.

Even so for now we feel my husband has no choice but to become a British Citizen purely to ensure he has the same rights as the rest of the family - Which I will admit I resent due to the £1400 price tag.

The General rise of nationalistic views within Europe and US is quite frankly depressing.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Bisbow said:


> I do not regret voting out one bit
> 
> I still think it will be a better future for my gtandchildren
> 
> I just regret other people did not respect my views and called us leavers nasty names because they lost


I think the majority of people didn't call leavers names at all and if they did Indont think it's as simple as because they lost.

Not that I have called anyone names but there's a lot of people very scared in this country.

Scared for their families / careers and future.

For EU Nationals living in the U.K. (And not just the evil Eastern Europeans in entry level jobs which the media like to brash on about) but Drs / Dentists / Vets / Lawyers / Teachers etc the out vote was a huge slap in the face to people who thought of the UK as their home.

For so many people it was far more than being upset for 'loosing'


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I gave hospitals simply as an example; my neighbour works for the council and all job applicants are sent an ethnicity form which they may fill out or not, as they wish. Apparently to ensure ''diversity''.


I find that absurdly ridiculous. It's like dumbing down the entry criteria to become a Fireman, so that more women could pass, otherwise they seemed to be practising sex discrimination 

What ever happened to taking the best candidate for the job?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rona said:


> I find that absurdly ridiculous. It's like dumbing down the entry criteria to become a Fireman, so that more women could pass, otherwise they seemed to be practising sex discrimination
> 
> What ever happened to taking the best candidate for the job?


 @rona: And my neighbour just applied for a (senior) free bus pass and was given an ethnicity form to complete (if she wanted to). Like you say, before long they will have to advertise for ''Firepeople'' if they don't already.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-and-job-applicants-over-training-placement/

Whatever happened to the best person for the job?

@rona: you surely remember this...last year?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> *There's a lot of people very scared in this country.
> 
> Scared for their families / careers and future.*


And judging by the latest news they have every justification of being so.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...e-mps-vote-bill-reject-response-a7572131.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-bill-amendment-to-protect-eu-citizens-in-uk

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...50-vote-amendment-Theresa-May-Labour-politics

Though the logic of some really should be addressed with a smack in the mouth.

_Excerpt from the comments section (Independent)

'I do not want all of the current EU nationals in the UK to remain, I want to be able to remove a few of them. I don't want any EU Murderer's, Rapists, Pedophiles or Slave traders in the UK.'_


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

Zaros said:


> _Excerpt from the comments section (Independent)
> 
> 'I do not want all of the current EU nationals in the UK to remain, I want to be able to remove a few of them. I don't want any EU Murderer's, Rapists, Pedophiles or Slave traders in the UK.'_


some people's stupidity knows no bounds!!


----------



## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

Milliepoochie said:


> I have no regrets about voting remain.
> 
> I have lots of concerns being married to a EU citizen - I am even more convinced than ever that the future of our family for the sake of our children is not in the UK.
> 
> ...


Sorry you and your family are also going through these scary times  Maybe I am short sighted and will come to regret this one day but so far I am choosing not to apply for citizenship - I really resent the idea to be quite honest. For starters like you say the price tag is not exactly negligeable...


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Rudydog said:


> some people's stupidity knows no bounds!!


It absolutely does not.

It makes me wonder if they actually realised/understood the message they were conveying.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Rudydog said:


> some people's stupidity knows no bounds!!


Yes Indeedy !

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/4691006.Convicted_rapist_won_t_be_deported/
A CONVICTED rapist, drug smuggler and burglar from Lithuania will not be deported for burgling an Ebbw Vale couple's home.

Valdas Rimaitis, 35, of no fixed abode, was free to come into the UK, despite his lengthy previous convictions, and continue to commit crimes.

Rimaitis was given sentences totalling 13 years in prison for drug smuggling, rape and robbery in his home country of Lithuania between 1997 and 2004.

He was then allowed into the UK and has appeared in London courts five times since February, four times for theft and was sentenced to six weeks in prison for sexual assault in May.


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## Rudydog (Nov 15, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Yes Indeedy !
> 
> http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/4691006.Convicted_rapist_won_t_be_deported/
> A CONVICTED rapist, drug smuggler and burglar from Lithuania will not be deported for burgling an Ebbw Vale couple's home.
> ...


Yes because there are no home grown dangerous criminals...

Don't get me wrong the guy is scum of the earth as far as I am concerned but this kind of argument pro Brexit is a very dangerous line to take imo


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Rudydog said:


> Yes because there are no home grown dangerous criminals...
> 
> Don't get me wrong the guy is scum of the earth as far as I am concerned but this kind of argument pro Brexit is a very dangerous line to take imo


No, we have enough of our home grown dangerous criminals thanks very much .

What he said was badly worded but we should be able to deport any dangerous criminals ( from any country) nor should convicted rapists /murderers be allowed into the country in the first place.
ETA
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...r-suspects-motive-was-most-likely-sexual.html

Not far from me .


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Rudydog said:


> Yes because there are no home grown dangerous criminals...
> 
> Don't get me wrong the guy is scum of the earth as far as I am concerned but this kind of argument pro Brexit is a very dangerous line to take imo


Yes absolutely. Reminds me of how the NF and co blamed black people for criminal acts in the '70s.

Yes, I'm sure a few people who've entered the UK are undesirable in much the same sense some UK citizens commit hideous acts abroad.

Yes, it's very dangerous indeed to target individual groups as hostile and feel for the decent Asian people in places like Rotherham for example.

I have personal experience of this many years ago. I was mistaken for being Irish at the time the IRA were active. I was immediately targeted as, according to them being Irish = IRA=Terrorist!
It's sad we're returning to those days of stereotyping not only in the UK but the US too.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> Yes absolutely. Reminds me of how the NF and co blamed black people for criminal acts in the '70s.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure a few people who've entered the UK are undesirable in much the same sense some UK citizens commit hideous acts abroad.


_"I do not want *all* of the current EU nationals in the UK to remain, I want to be able to remove _*a few *_ of them. I don't want any EU Murderer's, Rapists, Pedophiles or Slave traders in the UK "
_
Badly worded , he is not asking all EU members to be deported , he is not blaming Eu citizens for despicable crimes . He is frustrated that those responsible for those crimes cannot be deported .

Non members of the UK *are* deported for crimes .


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> _"I do not want *all* of the current EU nationals in the UK to remain, I want to be able to remove _*a few *_ of them. I don't want any EU Murderer's, Rapists, Pedophiles or Slave traders in the UK "
> _
> Badly worded , he is not asking all EU members to be deported , he is not blaming Eu citizens for despicable crimes . He is frustrated that those responsible for those crimes cannot be deported .
> 
> Non members of the UK *are* deported for crimes .


Could we not deport British murderers, rapists, pedophiles and slave traders too? They're not much better in my opinion... but who would have them?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Could we not deport British murderers, rapists, pedophiles and slave traders too? They're not much better in my opinion... but who would have them?


Australia ? oh already done that. I wish we could to countries like Saudi Arabia . But sadly we can't .

BTW convicted EU criminals entering the Uk should *not *have been or be used as an excuse to stop EU immigrants entering the country or living here.

ETA to add NOT ! eek !


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Just as an aside here, my father, who is a wise and well-travelled man without an ounce of racism in him, voted 'leave'.

His reasoning was that he doesn't approve of the EU on the basis that it treats Mediterranean countries badly and he no longer wanted the UK to be complicit in that.

I've no idea if his reasons are flawed but he's the only person I've heard explain their 'leave' vote this way and it just got me thinking.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> Australia ? oh already done that. I wish we could to countries like Saudi Arabia .
> 
> BTW convicted EU criminals entering the Uk should have been or be used as an excuse to stop EU immigrants entering the country or living here.


If it wasn't so expensive we could just blast them into space, then they are the aliens' problem...

Flippant I know but... but I have no better suggestions.


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2017)

kimthecat said:


> _"I do not want *all* of the current EU nationals in the UK to remain, I want to be able to remove _*a few *_ of them. I don't want any EU Murderer's, Rapists, Pedophiles or Slave traders in the UK "_


Gosh that sounds so much like Trump calling Mexicans "bad hombres" *sigh*


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> If it wasn't so expensive we could just blast them into space, then they are the aliens' problem...
> 
> Flippant I know but... but I have no better suggestions.


The moon would be a good place.

I have amended my last post . I left out NOT. It looked like I was saying we _should _use EU criminals as an excuse not to let EU members in . I meant the opposite !


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> If it wasn't so expensive we could just blast them into space, then they are the aliens' problem...
> 
> Flippant I know but... but I have no better suggestions.


Well we could address aberrant behavior in humans as something to be rehabilitated rather than punished. But that would require an entire paradigm shift of massive proportions which is far too uncomfortable and difficult for most of us. And of course, not all can be rehabbed so there is that too.

IDK, some of it does sound like "we" (whoever that happens to be) is just too precious to sit next to a criminal, send them elsewhere where we don't have to associate with them, think about them, acknowledge our part in creating them etc., etc.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Gosh that sounds so much like Trump calling Mexicans "bad hombres" *sigh*


He didnt? ........... :Jawdrop


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> The moon would be a good place.
> 
> I have amended my last post . I left out NOT. It looked like I was saying we _should _use EU criminals as an excuse not to let EU members in . I meant the opposite !


I did wonder, but assumed you'd meant not!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I did wonder, but assumed you'd meant not!


 Thank you. you know me so well


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2017)

Lexiedhb said:


> He didnt? ........... :Jawdrop


Oh yes, he did. Twice. 
First Mexicans were rapists, murderers and drug traffickers, and some he believes are nice people, but Mexico isn't sending their best. (Because apparently Mexico "sends" us illegal immigrants, we don't hire them to pick crops or clean hotels at a lower wage than required by law and no benefits or anything.)

Then in a debate he said there are a lot of "bad hombres" except he didn't pronounce "hombres" well and it sounded like "hambre" which means hunger. 
Then he said it again in a phone call to Pena Nieto that they have a bunch of "bad hombres" down there and they need to take care of them or he will. 
This man is such an embarrassment... :Bag


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> He didnt? ........... :Jawdrop


He certainly did:

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bad-hombres


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

_"I do not want *all* of the current EU nationals in the UK to remain, I want to be able to remove _*a few *_ of them. I don't want any EU Murderer's, Rapists, Pedophiles or Slave traders in the UK "_



ouesi said:


> Gosh that sounds so much like Trump calling Mexicans "bad hombres" *sigh*


So he meant *all* Mexicans ?

The guy who wrote that , he didn't say all EU members must "go home "

People want Trump banned from the UK , he's dangerous yet they don't want convicted murderers/rapist to be banned.


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Oh yes, he did. Twice.
> First Mexicans were rapists, murderers and drug traffickers, and some he believes are nice people, but Mexico isn't sending their best. (Because apparently Mexico "sends" us illegal immigrants, we don't hire them to pick crops or clean hotels at a lower wage than required by law and no benefits or anything.)
> 
> Then in a debate he said there are a lot of "bad hombres" except he didn't pronounce "hombres" well and it sounded like "hambre" which means hunger.
> ...





Jesthar said:


> He certainly did:
> 
> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bad-hombres


Quite literally no words.......
This mexico wall thing has given me a small insight into how he got in tho. I'm half American, my american grandparents used to have a n 8ft chain mail fence round their property and several big dogs. When I asked em why they replied "to keep the Mexicans out" - I didnt really understand the implications at the time, but I imagine, had they still been alive they'd have voted for Trump.


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2017)

Lexiedhb said:


> Quite literally no words.......
> This mexico wall thing has given me a small insight into how he got in tho. I'm half American, my american grandparents used to have a n 8ft chain mail fence round their property and several big dogs. When I asked em why they replied "to keep the Mexicans out" - I didnt really understand the implications at the time, but I imagine, had they still been alive they'd have voted for Trump.


Racism is very much alive and well in the US. Not against black people, but brown people.

The sad irony is how few white Americans understand that the history of this country means so many of our "Mexican" compatriots never crossed the border. The border crossed them. They just stayed put on the family land, and the border changed and they went from being Mexican to being American. Had nothing to do with them moving. Yet they're still treated like illegals. It's craziness.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> _"I do not want *all* of the current EU nationals in the UK to remain, I want to be able to remove _*a few *_ of them. I don't want any EU Murderer's, Rapists, Pedophiles or Slave traders in the UK "
> _
> Badly worded , he is not asking all EU members to be deported , he is not blaming Eu citizens for despicable crimes . He is frustrated that those responsible for those crimes cannot be deported .
> 
> Non members of the UK *are* deported for crimes .


Yes indeed but where will it stop ? Being a "minority" makes you a target. Remember the "sus laws" of the '70s which predominantly targeted 'non white" people? The fact many of them were born British was irrelevant.

Yes, some foreign and 'non white" people do commit despicable crimes. The way such crimes are reported, perhaps unintentionally, suggests to many Joe public this is very common.

There's plenty of white British who commit similarly despicable crimes not only in the UK but abroad as well.


----------



## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Rudydog said:


> Sorry you and your family are also going through these scary times  Maybe I am short sighted and will come to regret this one day but so far I am choosing not to apply for citizenship - I really resent the idea to be quite honest. For starters like you say the price tag is not exactly negligeable...


I resent it awfully... it's as if the notion of this piece of paper and he is more acceptable.

We have property / money tied up in this country - Our Children are British and we need to ensure no matter what my husband has the same rights / access in the future.

We feel at this point where there is no protection for EU citizens who are likely to be used as bargaining chips that we have no choice.

There is a huge back log of applications currently though... Nice little money earner there.

I'm sorry your going through these emotions to - I'm starting to think it's something only those directly effect actually understand.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed but where will it stop ? Being a "minority" makes you a target. Remember the "sus laws" of the '70s which predominantly targeted 'non white" people. The fact many of them were born British was irrelevant.
> 
> Yes m, some foreign and 'non white" people do commit despicable crimes. The way such crimes are reported, perhaps unintentionally, suggests to many Joe public this is very common.
> 
> There's plenty of white British who commit similarly despicable crimes not only in the UK but abroad as well.


yes , I understand that and to be honest I wouldn't want the British murderers back, but why add to the criminals that we already have?

I don't have any numbers of serious crime that's committed here in the UK , its not the 70s any more , sending a convicted criminal back isn't targeting a minority group . With the technology we have now , I would hope that convicted criminals of serious crimes would be flagged up and stopped .


----------



## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Racism is very much alive and well in the US. Not against black people, but brown people.
> 
> The sad irony is how few white Americans understand that the history of this country means so many of our "Mexican" compatriots never crossed the border. The border crossed them. They just stayed put on the family land, and the border changed and they went from being Mexican to being American. Had nothing to do with them moving. Yet they're still treated like illegals. It's craziness.


Absolutely - my grandparents were black American and Filipino - so go figure!!!


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Milliepoochie said:


> I resent it awfully... it's as if the notion of this piece of paper and he is more acceptable.
> 
> We have property / money tied up in this country - Our Children are British and we need to ensure no matter what my husband has the same rights / access in the future.
> 
> ...


Make me so sad, angry and ashamed of what this once great country is becoming.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Have you seen the latest low? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-unhcr-united-nations-lord-dubs-a7571451.html


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Have you seen the latest low? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-unhcr-united-nations-lord-dubs-a7571451.html


I have Noush'.

In fact I've seen too much of the latest Backstabbers R Us lows today. EU citizens without protection and very little hope of a secure future.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> I have Noush'.
> 
> In fact I've seen too much of the latest Backstabbers R Us lows today. EU citizens without protection and very little hope of a secure future.


They are absolutely vile!.

I saw this on twitter -

_"In one day Tories at Westminster have blocked lone child refugees and voted not to guarantee *EU* nationals place in UK. Not in my name"
_

Not in my name either!


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> They are absolutely vile!.
> 
> I saw this on twitter -
> 
> ...


Nor mine!


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> They are absolutely vile!.
> 
> I saw this on twitter -
> 
> ...


Pack of absolute 845t4rd5 every last one of them!


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> They are absolutely vile!.
> 
> I saw this on twitter -
> 
> ...


Nor mine!

I am awaiting a reply from my MP on why he voted not to guarantee EU nationals could stay in UK when just nine months ago he was making a very good case for why we need them here locally, how much they are needed in our rural community, how much they contribute and how he personally felt worried if they either left or stopped coming for agriculture work we would be left in something of a pickle to say the least!

I expect to get something back about moving forward and will of the people so I have informed him yes I understand the `will of the people` he had agreed upon the referendum taking place, therefore I accept his vote to trigger article 50 given the result of the referendum. However, as he is aware the case to leave was made over a number of issues and many of those voting to leave shared his concerns regarding EU nationals but believed if UK should exit the EU they would not be affected.

As voting to guarantee the rights of EU nationals could hardly be said to be against the wishes of the people and indeed he believes EU nationals are an absolute necessity in his constituency why would he not use the opportunity given to him by the proposed amendment to safe guard them!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Nor mine!


Nor mine.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

3dogs2cats said:


> Nor mine!
> 
> I am awaiting a reply from my MP on why he voted not to guarantee EU nationals could stay in UK when just nine months ago he was making a very good case for why we need them here locally, how much they are needed in our rural community, how much they contribute and how he personally felt worried if they either left or stopped coming for agriculture work we would be left in something of a pickle to say the least!
> 
> ...


Good on you for letting your feelings known. They don't seem to care about all the lives they are destroying - they don't even care about destroying our economy, our country. Its madness. We need EU nationals, they nurse our sick & care for our elderly, harvest our produce & this is the thanks they get? Its shameful. I'm so glad I've played no part in this unfolding nightmare. We will all suffer in the end.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Good on you for letting your feelings known. They don't seem to care about all the lives they are destroying - they don't even care about destroying our economy, our country. Its madness. We need EU nationals, they nurse our sick & care for our elderly, harvest our produce & this is the thanks they get? Its shameful. I'm so glad I've played no part in this unfolding nightmare. We will all suffer in the end.


Absolutely.

I'm disturbed by the fact many Labour MPs appear to believe all 52% who voted leave back the Farage form of Brexit that's being adopted by the government.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Pack of absolute 845t4rd5 every last one of them!


They are Toxic!



KittenKong said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I'm disturbed by the fact many Labour MPs appear to believe all 52% who voted leave back the Farage form of Brexit that's being adopted by the government.


I don't agree with Labour, but I think Private Eye explains Labour position on brexit perfectly. They always said before the result they would honour the outcome.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I voted leave, if we had to vote again that cross would go in exactly the same box


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

No regrets whatsoever, still have my remain sticker on my window and I'm proud of it. Brexit is a total balls up.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I still have no regrets voting leave as I sit here and watch the EU slowly crumble away on it's feet of clay like all the other empires in history
Just look at
The Aztec Empire
The Roman Empire
The British Empire
They all fall and the EU is an empire in all but mane
At least the UK will not be in the scramble for crumbs when it falls, we will be outside looking on, secure on our own two solid feet


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Pawscrossed said:


> No regrets whatsoever, still have my remain sticker on my window and I'm proud of it. Brexit is a total balls up.


I agree it's a balls up  but that's the fault of the politicians not the Leavers. If they had thought it through and had a plan then it wouldn't have been .


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> I agree it's a balls up  but that's the fault of the politicians *not the Leavers.* If they had thought it through and had a plan then it wouldn't have been .


Well I wouldn't say that, some people I know who I thought were much more intelligent than me who have A levels and have been to university said that voted out as they didn't want to loss the Queen, some said they did like some of the rules others believed the lies we were told about all that money the NHS was going to get. How many others did the same without looking into it in more detail.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
"Empires" are composed of conqueror & the conquered.
GREAT Britain & the 'colonies'.
the Spanish empire was Spain & the 'colonies'.
the Dutch, the French, Belgium, Portugal, all had 'colonies'.
.
a big part of our current political & poverty problems, worldwide, stem directly from the fallout of those long-ago colonies.
.
the European Union didn't *invade* any of its member-states.
In case U haven't noticed, members weren't coerced; they joined of their own free, sovereign, separate wills.
 And - also in case U haven't noticed - countries outside the E-U's roster but adjoining it, are eager to join.
.
nobody held a gun to any national leader's head & said, "join the E-U, or else..."
That's asinine. There were, & continue to be, easily perceived advantages to not only a common market, but communal responses to common problems - like, for just a few glaring examples, acid-rain, climate change, & clean water / clean air.
.
Slapping a label on something doesn't just make it so; labeling the E-U an 'empire' is merely a distraction, since the reality is so obviously not the label.
.
.
.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I wouldn't say that, some people I know who I thought were much more intelligent than me who have A levels and have been to university said that voted out as they didn't want to loss the Queen, some said they did like some of the rules others believed the lies we were told about all that money the NHS was going to get. How many others did the same without looking into it in more detail.


I believe the politicians on both sides of the campaign have admitted that lies and scare tactics were used by both, there was plenty of scare mongering that intelligent people on the remain side fell for. Remain voters were no less open to being brain washed or scare mongered than leave voters apparently were.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I wouldn't say that, some people I know who I thought were much more intelligent than me who have A levels and have been to university said that voted out as they didn't want to loss the Queen, some said they did like some of the rules others believed the lies we were told about all that money the NHS was going to get. How many others did the same without looking into it in more detail.


The reasons why people voted Brexit isn't the point . " Brexit " won the vote . It doesn't mean to say that Brexit itself caused all this mess . We dont yet know the outcome of Brexit , yet . 
The transition itself , is a balls up. 
A transition would go much more smoothly if it had been decided what type of Brexit we would have or any type of plan etc , if there hadn't been all this uncertainty , all the delays and law suits and splits and arguments between MPs etc
That's the point I was trying to make .


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

It was a war. a war of words and words can be much deadlier than weapons used in the right way
The word empire covers a lot things and the EU is ruled by a few power hungry people in Brussels
People are waking up to the facts and not only in the UK[/QUOTE]


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Bisbow said:


> It was a war. a war of words and words can be much deadlier than weapons used in the right way
> The word empire covers a lot things and the EU is ruled by a few power hungry people in Brussels
> People are waking up to the facts and not only in the UK


[/QUOTE]

Yes, but with Brexit the UK will find itself at the mercy of Trump and the US!

It'll probably end up as an unofficial annex of the US.

From where I'm standing I know what I would prefer.

At least the EU allowed more freedoms (contrary to what you'd read in the right wing press), and didn't get us involved in wars.

The monarchy was never threatened under the EU. Sweden, Spain, Belgium, Denmark and Holland also have monarchies for example.

Now the NHS is at great risk from the US power hungry vultures.....


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Have you heard yourself 



KittenKong said:


> Yes, but with Brexit the UK will find itself at the mercy of Trump and the US!


Total fabrication with no substantiation at all



KittenKong said:


> At least the EU allowed more freedoms (contrary to what you'd read in the right wing press), and didn't get us involved in wars.


About time you realised, what we keep telling you and just because you fall for what the press says, most of us don't even read or listen, we go to more informed sources



KittenKong said:


> Now the NHS is at great risk from the US power hungry vultures.....


:Yawn :Yawn :Yawn :Yawn


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Yes, but with Brexit the UK will find itself at the mercy of Trump and the US!

It'll probably end up as an unofficial annex of the US.

From where I'm standing I know what I would prefer.

At least the EU allowed more freedoms (contrary to what you'd read in the right wing press), and didn't get us involved in wars.

The monarchy was never threatened under the EU. Sweden, Spain, Belgium, Denmark and Holland also have monarchies for example.

Now the NHS is at great risk from the US power hungry vultures.....[/QUOTE]

*Could agree more*


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rona said:


> Have you heard yourself
> 
> Total fabrication with no substantiation at all
> 
> ...


Dear me.

I don't fall for what the press says. If I had I would have voted leave! I see plenty of copies of The Sun and Mail around.

I make up my own mind thank you.

Seems some haven't learned from what the "special relationship" has achieved for the UK. A good old war or three you'll recall???

Brexit will only result in closer ties with them.....

Anyway, could we show some respect to the OP by keeping this civil please?


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

We who voted leave are not going to sit back and let the UK go down the drain, we fight for what is needed to make us great again and I note no remainer has denied that the EU is falling apart. other countries are waking up to the fact that it is too big to control.
Are you really willing to stay on a sinking boat


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
I haven't seen any truly offensive comments on this thread, yet -
but of course, i do have Certain Parties on 'ignore', which probly has eliminated anything truly incendiary or obnoxious.

.
I like discussions - not sh!t-slinging & name-calling.
.
.
.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 300292


I have shown respect on this thread. I have voiced my opinion and have been quiet since. Others are just pointing out that us leavers are entitled to have our opinion to and won't stand by and watch the UK go down the pan so to speak. I feel the relentless finger pointing from the opposite party in this debate is getting silly (that is my personal opinion and I am entitled to make such an opinion like you keep making yours over and over). To be honest as well I don't think anyone is going to change their minds either the way they voted. I absolutely have no regrets voting leave.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> I haven't seen any truly offensive comments on this thread, yet -
> but of course, i do have Certain Parties on 'ignore', which probly has eliminated anything truly incendiary or obnoxious.
> 
> ...


I never have anyone on 'ignore' I might missed something and it throws thread out.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Bisbow,
we just posted near-simultaneously, & i would disagree that "the E-U is falling apart".
Yes, specific members have very grave economic problems, Greece by far worst, but most are doing OK... better than OK.
Remember, the world as a whole is still recovering from the Great Recession of 2008. Economies are rebuilding, currencies are more stable, but life isn't all beer & skittles, yet - & we won't be fully recovered for a few more years, IMO / from what I've read.
.
Sadly, some individuals cannot & never will recover from their financial losses of 2008.
They lost their life savings / retirement savings / homes & other property, their good credit ratings, their jobs - their lives were destroyed.
.
younger ppl were also impacted, but their 2008-fallout was more short-term, altho of course their lifetime earnings & Soc-Sec benefits, credit ratings in the short-term, etc, will also have taken a hit.
.
.
western Europe is doing quite well, actually.
E-U members are at least coherent & remarkably unified on many of their mutual concerns - sea rise, riverine pollution, agriculture & the plague of GMO crops / force-feeding glyphosate herbicides & neonicotinoid pesticides, etc. etc, etc.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
Happy Paws,
if there's an obvious gap in a thread or if someone responds to a post i obviously didin't see 'cuz it's blocked, i don't bother about it.
I see what i see, & I can generally guess the gist of what the ignoree posted via the visible replies.

minor gaps don't fret me.
.
.
.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> Dear me.
> 
> I don't fall for what the press says. If I had I would have voted leave! I see plenty of copies of The Sun and Mail around.
> 
> ...


So how come you say you can make your own mind up thanks but you constantly accuse us leave voters of being influenced by The Sun or The Mail. I don't read any newspapers so who influenced me? The thread is perfectly civil though as with all threads on this subject it goes round and round and round the same old arguments.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> * i do have Certain Parties on 'ignore'
> I like discussions to go my way and won't have my opinions challenged.*
> .


You forgot to add how you also like to post lies in the attempt to discredit the people you put on ignore.:Smug


----------



## Pawscrossed (Jul 2, 2013)

I still think it's a balls up, who votes for something that they don't know what it is? At least with remain you knew what it already was. Nothing from any part of the Brexit plan or the people who voted for it on here or anywhere else has inspired me to think that remain was the wrong vote for me. I remain unconvinced by Brexit!


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

[lrottiepointerhouse, post: 1064776165, member: 1409383";
-------
Just my defence re newspaper influence having been accused of falling for the propaganda. I'm well aware many voted the way they did through own beliefs and principles regardless of what the likes of the Sun or Guardian reported.

There's plenty of "Don't knows" who resorted to what the press said. Certainly 75% of the newspapers backed leave....


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Bisbow said:


> We who voted leave are not going to sit back and let the UK go down the drain, we fight for what is needed to make us great again and I note no remainer has denied that the EU is falling apart. other countries are waking up to the fact that it is too big to control.
> Are you really willing to stay on a sinking boat


And want to return to the WWII days were European countries were frequently at war with each other?

The EU is only falling apart thanks to the likes of Farage and Le Penn, not forgetting to anti EU press whether in the UK or elsewhere.

Only by working together can peace be maintained. Before I receive posts about NATO Trump sees that as obsolete. And what did the United Nations do to stop the Iraq etc. etc wars?

Sweet F.A.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> And want to return to the WWII days were European countries were frequently at war with each other?
> 
> The EU is only falling apart thanks to the likes of Farage and Le Penn, not forgetting to anti EU press whether in the UK or elsewhere.
> 
> ...


You missed one other person off your list.... Geert Wilders (Dutch Elections are only a few weeks away and he his the favourite to win in the Netherlands). People seem to forget about the Netherlands in there rants, if Geert Wilders gets in he is wanting a Referendum to leave the EU as well and this is why he is popular in the Netherlands.

https://www.ft.com/content/d77982da-ef8d-11e6-930f-061b01e23655

There you go I refrained from mentioning NATO and Trump


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Hi hello, can we use the other thread to spew our EU and non EU hatred like what I have done please, I was only interested in regrets... yes I had a few (not last June), thank you


----------



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Here's a link to the thread for any lazyboneses amongst us:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/page-265


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Here's a link to the thread for any lazyboneses amongst us:
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out.426589/page-265


You are much nicer and more helpful than me


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Make me so sad, angry and ashamed of what this once great country is becoming.


Oh ye of little faith!
It will be great again!
Greater then it ever was!
We have had visitors today, lots of them, my early birthday
Two of those were firm remainers, so much so that the subject became taboo here as we were so for out.
I actually braved the subject today as ask what their thoughts were now, both said they weren't so worried as they were as things were positive in their field.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Pawscrossed said:


> No regrets whatsoever, still have my remain sticker on my window and I'm proud of it. Brexit is a total balls up.


Time will tell:Smuggrin. Wanted to put a winky face but can't find it lol x


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Well I wouldn't say that, some people I know who I thought were much more intelligent than me who have A levels and have been to university said that voted out as they didn't want to loss the Queen, some said they did like some of the rules others believed the lies we were told about all that money the NHS was going to get. How many others did the same without looking into it in more detail.


Oh well if they went to university they must be really clever then, not


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

.
.
.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but with Brexit the UK will find itself at the mercy of Trump and the US!

It'll probably end up as an unofficial annex of the US.

From where I'm standing I know what I would prefer.

At least the EU allowed more freedoms (contrary to what you'd read in the right wing press), and didn't get us involved in wars.

The monarchy was never threatened under the EU. Sweden, Spain, Belgium, Denmark and Holland also have monarchies for example.

Now the NHS is at great risk from the US power hungry vultures.....[/QUOTE]

Oh dear! Think you've been brainwashed by the BBC luv!
Do you believe in the tooth fairy too?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

The only regret that I have is that we were dragged into the eu without our consent and that it took us nigh on 40 years to get this referendum!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> The only regret that I have is that we were dragged into the eu without our consent and that it took us nigh on 40 years to get this referendum!


Here, here.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
oh, for Heaven's sweet sake! -
:eyeroll:
.
it's an approving interjection, ya wee dweedle - & it's actually,
** "Hear, hear!"... **, as in, 'Open yer earholes & LISTEN, folks!'
.
"here, here", means nothing unless the speaker is irritatedly trying to re-direct some poor bloke who's shifting the furniture, or yelling at the barkeep who's delivered their drink to another dry-mouthed customer.
It certainly makes no sense as an approbation in response to a speech or article!

.
.
.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> oh, for Heaven's sweet sake! -
> :eyeroll:
> .
> ...


Hark at you trying teach and correct English.:Hilarious


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> I still have no regrets voting leave as I sit here and watch the EU slowly crumble away on it's feet of clay like all the other empires in history
> Just look at
> The Aztec Empire
> The Roman Empire
> ...


If the EU crumbles Nationalism will sweep the continent - & nationalism leads to wars. Lets pray to God the EU survives brexit or we're all doomed.

Here is renowned Historian Richard Evans talking about the Trump administration & brexit..

_
Yeah, it's spurning international agreements and organizations just as Hitler left the League of Nations in 1933. I think it's a dangerous moment for Britain, and I think it's a huge miscalculation to leave the European Union. The European Union needs to be strengthened, not weakened_.

And I'm afraid its just wishful thinking believing we'll be secure on our own two feet. The government is grovelling to a dangerous fascist for Trade.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

8 months on and I still have no regrets, it's going even better than I'd hoped. I really thought we would be in recession right now, that's still to come but I don't think it will be as bad as anticipated.
There's no major move toward huge immigration controls as far as I can see, in fact there seems to be a concerted effort on Theresa Mays part to sort out a solution to the issue
Finance and immigration were my main concerns. 
Actually leaving the corruption within the EU was always going to be a good thing for our country and why I voted out
My only concern is the Trump effect......it's so unpredictable.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Trouble is people can't see the wood because of the trees
They only see the dark trunks and forget to look down at the little green shoots appearing around the roots, or see then and dismiss then as weeds
Spring is coming, there may be another cold snap but we will get over it and things will get better for the generations to come

Unfortunately I will not be here in 30 years time to see the results and if North Korea has not blown us all up by then all will be fine and dandy


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm afraid hopes, dreams & wishes don't support jobs, pay the bills or put food on the table. They don't protect our environment, our climate. But brexit _will_ smash the hopes & dreams of millions of young people. Brexit is going to irreparably damage this country (& quite possibly the EU too) the young will suffer the most from this looming disaster.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> If the EU crumbles Nationalism will sweep the continent - & nationalism leads to wars. Lets pray to God the EU survives brexit or we're all doomed.


I thought you didn't believe in God?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I'm afraid hopes, dreams & wishes don't support jobs, pay the bills or put food on the table. They don't protect our environment, our climate. But brexit _will_ smash the hopes & dreams of millions of young people. Brexit is going to irreparably damage this country (& quite possibly the EU too) the young will suffer the most from this looming disaster.


Shall we all jump off a cliff now and be done with it? Seriously doom and gloom and constant negativity won't help anyone and it isn't good for your health. How do you actually *know* any of that when it hasn't even happened yet? How do you actually know that many more jobs won't be created and that the country will do just fine? You don't, you are fearful of those things which is quite understandable, nobody likes change much but please try to look for some positives occasionally. Life will go on, whatever you think or fear.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Hark at you trying teach and correct English.:Hilarious


Hear hear!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

DT said:


> Hear hear!


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Shall we all jump off a cliff now and be done with it? Seriously doom and gloom and constant negativity won't help anyone and it isn't good for your health. How do you actually *know* any of that when it hasn't even happened yet? How do you actually know that many more jobs won't be created and that the country will do just fine? You don't, you are fearful of those things which is quite understandable, nobody likes change much but please try to look for some positives occasionally. Life will go on, whatever you think or fear.


The only positive to the looming hard Brexit is the growing opposition to it.

Still, seeing this thread is about whether one regrets or stands by how they voted......

Sorry MollySmith.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> The only positive to the looming hard Brexit is the growing opposition to it.
> 
> Still, seeing this thread is about whether one regrets or stands by how they voted......
> 
> Sorry MollySmith.


In your opinion may be but thankfully plenty of people feel very positive about the future


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> I thought you didn't believe in God?


I don't. Tis a figure of speech.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> Shall we all jump off a cliff now and be done with it? Seriously doom and gloom and constant negativity won't help anyone and it isn't good for your health. How do you actually *know* any of that when it hasn't even happened yet? How do you actually know that many more jobs won't be created and that the country will do just fine? You don't, you are fearful of those things which is quite understandable, nobody likes change much but please try to look for some positives occasionally. Life will go on, whatever you think or fear.


There is plenty of evidence that brexit is going to be a disaster if you would only open your eyes & look. I'm not like you RPH. It must be nice to live in a state of denial in a way, but I don't want to be wilfully blind, I prefer to know & to face my fears. Whether that's brexit or climate change we're talking about. These things have consequences & many lives will suffer, whatever you choose to believe.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I don't. Tis a figure of speech.
> 
> There is plenty of evidence that brexit is going to be a disaster if you would only open your eyes & look. I'm not like you RPH. It must be nice to live in a state of denial in a way, but I don't want to be wilfully blind, I prefer to know & to face my fears. Whether that's brexit or climate change we're talking about. These things have consequences & many lives will suffer, whatever you choose to believe.


:Hilarious:Hilarious Yes I manage to run a business by going around with my eyes shut and making la la noises all day long. All the other businesses we deal with must also be in denial. Oh and my Mum who has several chronic illnesses requiring multiple hospital and GP visits, regular blood tests and multiple drugs is still trundling along with her eyes shut too. It has nothing to do with what I choose to believe and everything to do with your outlook on life. Like I said none of us like change but we have to learn to adapt to survive. Whatever comes our way in the future life will go on.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Worst case senario the lights will go out and will all end up living in caves, best case senario well grow and prosper, im not fused either way as fancy a bit of the good life, besides my mate noush grows her own veg so we wont starve ex


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> . Like I said none of us like change but we have to learn to adapt to survive. Whatever comes our way in the future life will go on.


Doesn't mean we have to accept it though.

The Poll Tax proved that!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious Yes I manage to run a business by going around with my eyes shut and making la la noises all day long. All the other businesses we deal with must also be in denial. Oh and my Mum who has several chronic illnesses requiring multiple hospital and GP visits, regular blood tests and multiple drugs is still trundling along with her eyes shut too. It has nothing to do with what I choose to believe and everything to do with your outlook on life. Like I said none of us like change but we have to learn to adapt to survive. Whatever comes our way in the future life will go on.


Oh so if I have a sunny outlook on life climate change will just disappear & brexit won't be a disaster it will actually be good for the country. That's ok then:Wideyed

cuckoo


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Oh so if I have a sunny outlook on life climate change will just disappear & brexit won't be a disaster it will actually be good for the country. That's ok then:Wideyed
> 
> cuckoo


Oh dear, what a miserable life you must lead, such pessimism must be very tiring


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> Oh dear, what a miserable life you must lead, such pessimism must be very tiring


I can face reality AND have a very happy life believe it or not


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Oh so if I have a sunny outlook on life climate change will just disappear & brexit won't be a disaster it will actually be good for the country. That's ok then:Wideyed
> 
> cuckoo


Yes. It sure beats have a negative outlook and moaning all the time.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> I can face reality AND have a very happy life believe it or not


Well you could, and did fool me
Don't think I have see one happy post from you


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Actually, noush is one of the lovliest people I know, and she does sure have a lovely life and always puts her family first, her and I are poles apart over brexit, but please dont suggest she has a sad life , all we need to do is to prove to this lovely compassinate lady that there is life after brexit xx


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

DT said:


> Actually, noush is one of the lovliest people I know, and she does sure have a lovely life and always puts her family first, her and I are poles apart over brexit, but please dont suggest she has a sad life , all we need to do is to prove to this lovely compassinate lady that there is life after brexit xx


In that case I apologise, she just seems so negative


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Bisbow said:


> Oh dear, what a miserable life you must lead, such pessimism must be very tiring


_'The optimist would have you believe that this world is the best of all possible worlds in which to live. The pessimist fears he might be true.' _

J Robert Oppenheimer 1904-1967


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

We might need this the 1980 government pamphlet. 

http://www.atomica.co.uk/main.htm
Protect and Survive

This booklet tells you how to make your home and family as safe as possible under nuclear attack ...

Seriously though, it was scary at the time. I am concerned now about the possibility of a nuclear strike , that threat has never gone away but you learn to live with it . It's a cruel world and life is short but excessive worrying and fretting won't change anything . I tend to live very much in the moment because otherwise I'd drive myself crazy .


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> We might need this the 1980 government pamphlet.
> 
> http://www.atomica.co.uk/main.htm
> Protect and Survive
> ...


Such invaluable tips as painting your property and its windows white in order to reduce the heat and prevent it from bursting into flames.:Hilarious


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

.


Bisbow said:


> Oh dear, what a miserable life you must lead, such pessimism must be very tiring


Edit - Just seen your apology Bisbow.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Such invaluable tips as painting your property and its windows white in order to reduce the heat and prevent it from bursting into flames.:Hilarious


:Hilarious

This will really keep you safe


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> In your opinion may be but thankfully plenty of people feel very positive about the future


Gotta wear shades.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious
> 
> This will really keep you safe


*(DUCK AND COVER 1951.)*​In the event of a nuclear attack the safest place for protection from the blast, its radiating heat and the subsequent fallout, is beneath your wooden school desk.










*Until The Wind Blows!

*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes. It sure beats have a negative outlook and moaning all the time.


_
"The greatest danger to our future is apathy." _Jane Goodall.



DT said:


> Actually, noush is one of the lovliest people I know, and she does sure have a lovely life and always puts her family first, her and I are poles apart over brexit, but please dont suggest she has a sad life , all we need to do is to prove to this lovely compassinate lady that there is life after brexit xx


Aw bless. What a lovely thing to say, thank you xx (the last bit however, not a chance!, unless you can have a word with this government)



Bisbow said:


> In that case I apologise, she just seems so negative


No worries Bisbow.



Zaros said:


> _'The optimist would have you believe that this world is the best of all possible worlds in which to live. The pessimist fears he might be true.' _
> 
> J Robert Oppenheimer 1904-1967


 I had to think about this before I got it, Zaros (thats how slow I am lol) Its a great quote, thank you x


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> *(DUCK AND COVER 1951.)*​In the event of a nuclear attack the safest place for protection from the blast, its radiating heat and the subsequent fallout, is beneath your wooden school desk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lovely post on the warnings of a nuclear attack. But with the power of the modern nuclear bombs not even a nuclear shelter will save you.

You might as well say we'll all turn into these after a nuclear attack:








No not the crisps. These from the Walking Dead TV series...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> Lovely post on the warnings of a nuclear attack. But with the power of the modern nuclear bombs not even a nuclear shelter will save you.
> You might as well say we'll all turn into these after a nuclear attack:
> View attachment 300453


It's disturbing how so many people believe this.

When in actual fact this is the harsh reality.

Nuclear shadow. (Hiroshima) Scientists say this is where someone was sat at the point of detonation.










And this;










And this;










This shows nothing of the lingering painful death caused by a toxic atmosphere.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> It's disturbing how so many people believe this.
> 
> When in actual fact this is the harsh reality.
> 
> ...


Well let's hope someone sorts North Korea out as they are the ones playing a dangerous game at the moment and not abiding to UN sanctions by making nuclear weapons and test firing long range missiles. I hope this doesn't result in a nuclear attack.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat said:


> Well let's hope someone sorts North Korea out as they are the ones playing a dangerous game at the moment and not abiding to UN sanctions by making nuclear weapons and test firing long range missiles. I hope this doesn't result in a nuclear attack.


You obviously don't think America is a threat to the world then.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
living a happy life in the moment whilst also being concerned for the future are not incompatible -
neither is rationalizing or denying reality in one aspect of life [Brexit, POTUS Trumpling, proliferation of nuke weapons...] while being entirely rational & fact-based in other areas: one's job, business, home life, social events, etc.
.
Humans have a stunning ability to deny what they don't want to see, or conversely to see what's not there but which they desperately need to believe in.
.
it's one thing for Exxon-Mobil, BP, & other fossil-fuel industries to acknowledge internally that cimate change is real; that's why they're all racing to nab dibs on Arctic oil & gas exploration, with the sea-ice vanishing & new potential fields for plunder & profit.
Or global shipping trying to grab new Arctic routes that were previously impassable, & thus shorten their sea-time.
Simultaneously, Exxon-Mobil, BP, & other fossil-fuel dependent corporations spent billions collectively to fund think-tanks & lobbyists who vehemently denied any sizable human effect on climate, blaming it on sun-spots or whatever, or even denying the reality of science data - to delay for as long as possible, any connection between their own culpability & the very real effects, plus to prevent any early effective legislation that might limit their own profits, or damage their stock index, or reduce dividends going to shareholders.
THOSE mattered to them; sea ice & polar bears? - what the f*** does that matter?
.
.
Human rationalization is incredibly potent; no smoker seriously believes s/he is going to be a shrunken, cancer-riddled, wheezing COPD patient when they start smoking.
They all think that they'll be the exception, or quit before much damage is done, or die young in an auto accident, or __________ .
.
Statistics & data are factual.
So is the power of political alliances & economic ties, social contact & social contracts.
Recognizing that nations have common interests, future concerns, & current problems is simple; pulling out of a long-term alliance of geographically close countries with deeply meshed economic, social, & environmental connections to "go it alone" looks not merely irrational to me, but downright suicidal.
.
as just one instance, how much did flood control or tidal abatement cost on the Thames watershed, or even in the estuary of London alone?
Every coastal country around the globe will have to deal with this; so will every landlocked country with a single river, as floods, droughts, & sea-level rise worsen. We already know that extreme weather events are proliferating astronomically; pretending wind-shear isn't becoming a near-daily event is impossible.
A collective of nations can help distribute those costs; a single nation must somehow pay the bill alone.
.
.
People can talk themselves into believing utterly contrary sets of facts; my mother told everyone, even her own family, that "the war changed Johnny" until I think even she believed her own fable, when in truth he'd always been a short-tempered, physically violent, bigoted b*st*rd.
She believed in her version, while living with the second. Sadly, she damned her children to living with the actual reality, too. Anyone can talk themselves into anything, given time to construct a solid & sufficiently convoluted rationale.
.
.
.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Humans have a stunning ability to deny what they don't want to see


Or put it on ignore and pretend it no longer exists.:Hilarious


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> 
> .
> Humans have a stunning ability to deny what they don't want to see, or conversely to see what's not there but which they desperately need to believe in.
> ...


YES! We have noticed!


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