# oldest age to breed a bitch



## jardine (Feb 14, 2010)

My german shepherd was bred when she was 2, she has been having a phantom pregnancy, and recent bout of diarreoha, all health tests from the vet came back clear as i felt something else was wrong with her, she is now just 6, and has allways been healthy, is she to old to let her have another litter ?


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

i think you will find the kc recommend either 6 litters in the lifetime of a bitch or 8 years of age


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

I would say if she is fit and healthy and had all the tests she needs for the breed she should be ok
Did she have any problems the first time?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

The oldest age you can register a litter with the KC from a bitch is 7, without having to get KC permission first. They will register pups from bitches of 8 if they have had a previous litter. (but you have to obtain the permission prior to mating) 

Having said that, I would want a bitch to be in tip top condition (and health tested) at any age before mating, but moreso as they get older because obviously the risks they will tire / have problems could increase.

I ummed and aahed about taking a final litter from my girl who is 7 (and hurtles and throws herself around like an 8 week old puppy - so much so I am beginning to wonder if there is reverse adolescence when they hit veteran :lol - but decided against it, I guess I am lucky I have her daughters and a grand-daughter at home from which I can keep / improve my lines.

==============

I will say I do know of people who seemed to encounter additional complications from older bitches who had undergone a gap of some 3/4 years between their first and second litters - whether this is down to age, timing or just sheer coincidence, I really don't know.


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## jardine (Feb 14, 2010)

No she was a brilliant mum and had 7 healthy pups and we didnt even loose a nights sleep with her, i think she is very broody after jess had her pups.


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

Is there an age limit on stud dogs? Just curious!


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I bred my girl when she was 2 and then again when she was just 5, the first litter she breezed through, the 2nd was full of complications ending in a c section and the loss of 3 pups I personlly wouldnt breed from a large breed dog, with a big gap inbetween litters over the age of 5 now.

mo


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Unless there was a very good reason, the bitch was very healthy I wouldn't, particularly with such a large gap between. If she is suffering phantoms and given her age and risk from pyo, I would opt to get her spayed, particularly if her phantom is the reason you are thinking of breeding her again. Phantoms are not uncommon and actually what nature intended rather than her getting broody because of your other bitch's litter, which is human one not a canine one. I'm not sure how serious the diarrhea was, and if it is something she suffers from a lot, but an odd bout of the runs would not necessarily indicate poor health or put me off having a litter - more likely (in the case of mine) that they've eaten something they shouldn't have , although it does depend how severe and whether it's an ongoing problem.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

miti999 said:


> Is there an age limit on stud dogs? Just curious!


Not if they are still willing, able and can deliver the good  with the relaxing of AI rules, we are even seeing occasional offspring from dogs that haven't been with us now for the last 20 years or so now.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I personally wouldn't want a litter after such a large gap. If she had a litter at 2 and at 4 then I would say yes, providing she was fit and in hard condition then she would be fine, but not this type of gap I'm afraid.


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## jardine (Feb 14, 2010)

Thank-you all for your advice, bella was bred the first time because she had a phanton pregnancy and has never had one since until now, that was the only reason we discussed it, but we were unsure anyway , Shes not due in season yet for a while anyway, if we are still in to minds then i will speak to the vet and see what he says.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> bella was bred the first time because she had a phanton pregnancy


I would never breed a bitch as a cure for a phantom pregnancy - if a bitch suffers badly from phantoms get her spayed. Who advised you to breed because of a phantom? Goodness, if every bitch that had a phantom was bred from we'd be even more overrun in rescue than we already are!

I know it's some years ago, so too late now, but for anyone else reading, this is an old wives tale and breeding is NOT the way to deal with phantoms.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

This is a good way of highliting the old wifes tale that a bitch that has phantoms should be bred from and having a litter will stop phantoms, as everyone can see in Jardine's experience this is not fact.

mo


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

tbo many years ago i mated a bitch at 2 and then again at 6 nearly 7. the first litter she had like shelling peas second litter she had to have a ceasar,so from my experiences i wouldn't .


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

miti999 said:


> Is there an age limit on stud dogs? Just curious!


i dunno about the KC-rules, but AKC rules are as follows: 


> IX. OVER-AGE / UNDER-AGE SIRES AND DAMS
> Chapter 3, Section 5 of the Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline reads as follows:
> 
> No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating, or by a sire under seven (7) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating, will be registered unless the application for registration shall be accompanied by an affidavit or evidence which shall prove the fact to the satisfaction of The
> American Kennel Club.


more specifically, they strongly discourage breeding of bitches past 6-YO, and some breed-clubs have their own rules, 
which supercede the AKCs general guidlines.

there have been recent studies that indicate sperm-quality deteriorate after 6-YO in studs as well; motility, normalcy 
(double-headed, double-tailed, spinners...), and fertility are all affected. 
fertility = number of viable sperm per volume of ejaculate; * not whether or not the dog has sired a litter, 
or is willing to mount a bitch.* 
if anyone wants a link, i will hunt one up; just as in humans, where older men are more likely to sire children with 
behavioral, developmental, etc, problems, older-dogs are no longer as desirable as sires.

taking SPERM from the dog when young for cold-storage, even before neutering the dog, is one way to hedge bets; 
U can have the young-sperm from the old-dog, even if he never sired a litter in life.

cheers, 
--- terry


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

> No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating


 :scared:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> :scared:


hey, tanya! :--)

um - U did see my note below that, yes? 
most breeders never breed a bitch over 6-YO, meaning not even 7, let alone in double-digits. 
the AKC does not **recommend** breeding past 6-YO; they deny registrations on litters as specified.

do i think its adequate? No - but i am not on their board-of-directors.  
all my best, 
--- terry


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah I saw it don't worry lol, it just really shocked me that they would register a litter from a dam that age. 
I don't think its necessary for a stud to have an upperage limit, providing they are in good form still, but naturally I'd want a sperm check before using a 12yr old on a bitch of mine especially if I was paying a big stud fee. They don't have the same stress on the body as a bitch does, provided they aren't in incredibly popular demand (like every week) but that would be irresponsible on the side of the stud owner, thats when we end up with single stud problems in the breed and the gene pool gets smaller.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating, or by a sire under seven (7) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating,
> 
> :scared:


Crikey - the AKC makes the Kennel Club look positively beneficial in comparison - and I think even their rules allow mating too early and too late, and I would like to see the total number of litters allowed cut too!

An introduction to dog breeding - The Kennel Club

_the Kennel Club will not accept an application to register a litter when:

a) The bitch has already whelped six litters, or

b) The bitch was under a year old at the date of mating, or

c) The bitch has already reached the age of eight years at the date of whelping, or

d) Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons.

N.B. Relief from the restriction C may be considered provided the dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter, and a written application is made prior to mating and supported by veterinary evidence confirming the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping._


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sharon Vanderlip, D.V.M, Veterinarian | Veterinary Reproductive Medicine & Surgery | Author of pet care books 


> *bold added - *
> 
> Malinois Marvels!
> 
> ...


more about the sire: 
Duc.html

i do not know his age at the time of breeding - the entries on the vet-site are not dated. 
*i take that back - he was born June 1999 and would have sired the litter above in mid-Feb of 2008.*
cheers, 
--- terry


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> I don't think its necessary for a stud to have an upperage limit, providing they are in good form still, but naturally I'd want a sperm check before using a 12yr old on a bitch of mine especially if I was paying a big stud fee.


In fairness, certainly in my own breed, I know the older dogs tend to be 'checked' regularly before being stood.

I am looking to use a veteran I've used before on a half sister (different sire) - he's certainly still producing the goods atm - so hoping he continues to for the next 12 months


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