# More worrying behavior from Cooper



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I got in from work and was met by an excitable Cooper, once he got on 4 feet i crouched and fussed him, he was ok, then my gf came in and stroked his head, he was ok then growled at her  she stepped back and said "COOPER !!" i took his collar and said COOPER"NO!" he kept growling then growled, followed by a lugnge/air snap  

Im sorry but this didn't seem fear based, could it be jealousy?? or something else, its really worried me. 

Took him for a walk and a family the other side of the road shouted how beautiful he is, we were talking for a bit and i was asked does he have a good temperament?? In a word, "No" i had to say, i explained his hip needs sorting so don't know how much is caused by that, but its a shame i have to say it.


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

sorry but all i have to say is that surely you shouldnt be telling him off for growling ? i know he has issues but at least he is warning you. i realise that it must me extremly hard . i hope there is some good news soon


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

appreciate that, i did it without thinking, i was crouched next to my dog that took an aggressive stance toward my gf, i said no once then stopped, he didn't though. 10 mins later he was in the garden with us and fine


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Perhaps, a long shot, your gf has stroked him near his hips before and its caused him pain? Maybe he's making that connection and warning her off?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Your more patient than me, bad hips or not , i could not have a dog of that size in a house with me and the kids with that behaviour . I know you should work with a dog to try and work out issues but i just couldn't risk it.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I really do not envy you.

Not something I would put up with, so good on you.


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## katielouise88 (Jun 25, 2012)

alyssa_liss said:


> sorry but all i have to say is that surely you shouldnt be telling him off for growling ? i know he has issues but at least he is warning you. i realise that it must me extremly hard . i hope there is some good news soon


If my dog growled at me then she would get shouted at and a time out. You can't really let them get away with it as surely they'll do it more. It's just like kids being naughty.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Perhaps, a long shot, your gf has stroked him near his hips before and its caused him pain? Maybe he's making that connection and warning her off?


Suppose its a possibility, don't think so though, she was stroking his head at the time.Seemed out of character even for him


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> If my dog growled at me then she would get shouted at and a time out. You can't really let them get away with it as surely they'll do it more. It's just like kids being naughty.


No one is suggesting the behaviour is acceptable. 
The issue with punishing a dog for growling is that you take away their clearest form of communication. Growling is an early warning system that even the most inexperienced, dog-clueless person can understand. Stopping a dog growling by using punishment is a very fast way to create a dog who "bites with no warning".

Redginald - you have my sympathy. This hasn't been an easy ride for you and I admire you for sticking by your dog and doing the best you can for him. Hope thigs improve soon.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

katielouise88 said:


> If my dog growled at me then she would get shouted at and a time out. You can't really let them get away with it as surely they'll do it more. It's just like kids being naughty.


But then maybe next time she wouldn't warn you? If Kilo growls I tend to work out why as he's communicating that something is making him unhappy. He has growled when I tried putting his equafleece on and it had a big thorn inside that I was pushing into him - I only looked at the equafleece because he growled both times I tried to pull it down over his chest. If I'd punished the growl maybe he wouldn't bother the next time and decide that decide that he needs to snap?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

redginald said:


> Suppose its a possibility, don't think so though, she was stroking his head at the time.Seemed out of character even for him


Poor lad, he's really not from the greatest stock it seems  You do put up with a lot, as does your OH, hats off to you both. I hope it resolves, you never know, once he's grown up and surgically fixed he might be a diamond.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

katielouise88 said:


> If my dog growled at me then she would get shouted at and a time out. You can't really let them get away with it as surely they'll do it more. It's just like kids being naughty.


I would never shout or punish a dog for growling, that's one behaviour you do not want to suppress.


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## katielouise88 (Jun 25, 2012)

Well that's my opinion on the matter.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I dont blame you for having that reaction to Cooper growling. I can understand a dog growling at a stranger or something that may frighten him but not at his owner lovingly stroking him. I would have had a similar reaction to yours. Yours and your GFs patience with Cooper is amazing.....especially as you have children.

I really hope things improve for you......many families would have given up by now!


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

just to add dogs growl for a reason, hense why i said not to tell him off for it (most people realise this is what i meant) 

i have alot of respect for reginald and everything he has done/is doing to help cooper ,as im sure he is aware of


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

katielouise88 said:


> Well that's my opinion on the matter.


We're all entitled to an opinion. Have you read the very recent thread on CM and how things can blow up when you dont heed a warning.

Redginald- I really have everything crossed that this is health related, it must be really hard on you all at the moment.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I really hope Im doing the right thing, goes without saying he's very close to the line in regards to being part of the family. Im massively stressed by it all. 

When things like todays incident happen, it really makes my stomach turn, I convince myself he'll get better with age and training, and all seems to go well, we avoid conflict and try to be sensible, and then something like this happens and its disheartening and worrying. 

I want the hip replacement, we need the hope it would bring, and we wouldn't feel like we are battling an un winnable battle with his behavior. If it doesn't change anything or makes him worse we have the option of rehoming him with somebody without kids who really knows how to deal with him, and they won't have to fork out for a hip replacement for him.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I do worry about him and you and you all. He doesn't sound like a happy boy at all and it does sound like you are doing the best you can. 

Are you still working with a behaviourist?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Yes dogs growl for a reason....like I said.....fear of strangers.....noises....a million reasons. I am sure Cooper wouldnt have been told off if he had growled for an acceptable reason but growling in his own home....at one of his owners.....who is showing loving affection....no...not acceptable at all. Sounds more like he wanted his human dads attention all by himself as he was lapping up attention from OP. If he was being dominant then Id say thats a pretty big problem in such a poweful dog.....so understand the OPs concerns.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

chichi said:


> Yes dogs growl for a reason....like I said.....fear of strangers.....noises....a million reasons. I am sure Cooper wouldnt have been told off if he had growled for an acceptable reason but growling in his own home....at one of his owners.....who is showing loving affection....no...not acceptable at all. Sounds more like he wanted his human dads attention all by himself as he was lapping up attention from OP. If he was being dominant then Id say thats a pretty big problem in such a poweful dog.....so understand the OPs concerns.


but its obv. that copper didn't see the loving affection bit as what it was intended for one reason or another..and is better for a dog to growl first rather than bite first...most sensible dog owners should know this !!

i have read in the past that cooper resource guards items..sounds to me like he was guarding you at this time also

I so hope you can sort all his problems,, no one can say you have not tried

get back in touch with your behaviourist and see what she says


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## katielouise88 (Jun 25, 2012)

chichi said:


> Yes dogs growl for a reason....like I said.....fear of strangers.....noises....a million reasons. I am sure Cooper wouldnt have been told off if he had growled for an acceptable reason but growling in his own home....at one of his owners.....who is showing loving affection....no...not acceptable at all. Sounds more like he wanted his human dads attention all by himself as he was lapping up attention from OP. If he was being dominant then Id say thats a pretty big problem in such a poweful dog.....so understand the OPs concerns.


You have put this in a better way then I said. Couldn't agree more with you


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

redginald said:


> I got in from work and was met by an excitable Cooper, once he got on 4 feet i crouched and fussed him, he was ok, then my gf came in and stroked his head, he was ok then growled at her  she stepped back and said "COOPER !!" i took his collar and said COOPER"NO!" he kept growling then growled, followed by a lugnge/air snap
> 
> *Im sorry but this didn't seem fear based, could it be jealousy?? or something else, its really worried me. *
> 
> Took him for a walk and a family the other side of the road shouted how beautiful he is, we were talking for a bit and i was asked does he have a good temperament?? In a word, "No" i had to say, i explained his hip needs sorting so don't know how much is caused by that, but its a shame i have to say it.


From your posts it is apparent that Coop is a resource guarder, you are as much a resource as his fave toy, his bed or his stag bar. If you keep working on his resource guarding incidents like this should reduce. You could work on your partner approaching with goodies for Coop when you are fussing him and then he will learn to look forward to her arrival.

I really want it to work out for you with Coop because it's obvious from your posts that you are willing to go the extra mile for him, but I have doubts about his suitability as a family dog from my own perspective. I sincerely hope I am proved wrong.

I really wish you all the best x


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> but its obv. that copper didn't see the loving affection bit as what it was intended for one reason or another..and is better for a dog to growl first rather than bite first...most sensible dog owners should know this !!
> 
> i have read in the past that cooper resource guards items..sounds to me like he was guarding you at this time also
> 
> ...


Well you are obvs inferring that I am not "sensible" but thats okay because if your idea of sensible is not to correct a Huge growling dog. ....growling in his own home....at a family member showing kindness...... where there are small children present then Id say that borders stupidity.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

There is no such dog behaviour as "being dominant" - they are not the complex social reformers that this suggests. Growling is simply a means to try to put distance between Dog and Percieved Threat. Percieved. From the dog's point of view. Not a human's point of view. At that moment in time for whatever reason the combination of OP petting the dog and the GF reaching over his head was threatening to Cooper - getting to the bottom of why he found it to be so and getting him to change his mind about that situation being a threat is the work of a behaviourist - and he has learned that growling is an effective means of removing perceived threats. Which is, in a way, fair enough. We communicate what we want to our dogs as best we can and vice versa.

Simply punishing his growling will solve no issues. Teaching him to cope with his anxiety, lessening his anxiety or teaching him a better way of distancing himself from threats is the way forward. For a dog as complex and generally upset by life as Cooper appears to be from what I read about him a properly qualified behaviourist is really the only person who can help.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

chichi said:


> Well you are obvs inferring that I am not "sensible" but thats okay because if your idea of sensible is not to correct a Huge growling dog. ....growling in his own home....at a family member showing kindness...... where there are small children present then Id say that borders stupidity.


Yes ..you are correct in that I am inferring that you are not 'sensible'

to be 'sensible' would be to walk away with out any interaction


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> Well you are obvs inferring that I am not "sensible" but thats okay because if your idea of sensible is not to correct a Huge growling dog. ....growling in his own home....at a family member showing kindness...... where there are small children present then Id say that borders stupidity.


The thing is, that at least the kids can be taught that if Coops growls then they stay clear of him. If his growling behaviour is removed through correction, then what?

I don't think that it's acceptable to just leave things as they stand, but if the _cause _of the growling is removed / solved (resource guarding) then so will the growling be, surely?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Well you are obvs inferring that I am not "sensible" but thats okay because if your idea of sensible is not to correct a Huge growling dog. ....growling in his own home....at a family member showing kindness...... where there are small children present then Id say that borders stupidity.


You think a dog understands exactly what a human showing kindness is and then decides to put his feelings to one side for a minute to appreciate it?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Redginald, I'd recommend Learning About Dogs Welcome to Learning About Dogs
They do workshops on rehabilitation and anti-social behaviour. The trainer/behaviourist is fantastic and it's all clicker based. It's very cheap for what you get and only about an hour away.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> You think a dog understands exactly what a human showing kindness is and then decides to put his feelings to one side for a minute to appreciate it?


Do your dogs growl at you or family members? Mine certainly dont...they take off to their beds if they are not happy with a situation.

My point was that the dog wasnt threatened in any way....so no reason for the growling....other than he didnt want OPs GFs attention....... Not acceptable for me or Redginald it seems....perhaps because we have children.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

chichi said:


> Do your dogs growl at you or family members? Mine certainly dont...they take off to their beds if they are not happy with a situation.
> 
> My point was that the dog wasnt threatened in any way....so no reason for the growling....other than he didnt want OPs GFs attention....... Not acceptable for me or Redginald it seems....perhaps because we have children.


But if resource guarding the OP he was threatened - not acceptable behaviour in a family home at all as it poses a risk I agree.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> My point was that the dog wasnt threatened in any way....so no reason for the growling....


Just because _you_ see no reason for the growl, doesn't mean the dog doesn't. He could have been sore, he could have heard or smelled something that we as humans don't, it could be anything. For you to take it upon yourself to decide its 'nothing' and punish the dog for warning you is incredibly stupid. Next time, the dog won't bother to warn first....


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> Yes ..you are correct in that I am inferring that you are not 'sensible'
> 
> to be 'sensible' would be to walk away with out any interaction


Well like I said...thats okay for the reason stated in previous post...but lets not get into a childish slanging match and spoil the OPs thread with bickering. We all have a right to our opinion


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

chichi said:


> Do your dogs growl at you or family members? Mine certainly dont...they take off to their beds if they are not happy with a situation.
> 
> My point was that the dog wasnt threatened in any way....so no reason for the growling....other than he didnt want OPs GFs attention....... Not acceptable for me or Redginald it seems....perhaps because we have children.


he perhaps was not phsically threatened..but he certainly felt threatened !!!

yes I agree it should not happen..but it is happening so it has to be dealt with in the correct way ...not in a way that can make it worse

OP I can understand why you reacted on the spur of the moment..and I would think this thread has now been blown way out of proportion of what really happened...

have you read the book 'mine' be Jean Donaldson?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Are you still seeing the behaviourist? Perhaps you could give them a call tomorrow to discuss seeing as they have met Coops?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

chichi said:


> Well like I said...thats okay for the reason stated in previous post...but lets not get into a childish slanving match and spoil the OPs thread with bickering. We all have a right to our opinion


no childish slanging match from me !!! I'm a grown up I think :lol:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> Just because _you_ see no reason for the growl, doesn't mean the dog doesn't. He could have been sore, he could have heard or smelled something that we as humans don't, it could be anything. For you to take it upon yourself to decide its 'nothing' and punish the dog for warning you is incredibly stupid. Next time, the dog won't bother to warn first....


Cooper wasnt punished....he was corrected....


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> Cooper wasnt punished....he was corrected....


What? Told not to bother giving a warning next time because to do so is wrong?

OP, Im not getting at you, you clearly know that 'correcting' a growling dog is wrong and I understand it was spur of the moment.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

chichi said:


> Cooper wasnt punished....he was corrected....


Same difference. Dogs don't understand semantics.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> Same difference. Dogs don't understand semantics.


had to google that one :lol: :lol:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I've never seen one of my dogs punish/correct another for growling. They just understand it for what it is - stop doing that or I'll escalate my level of aggression, you've been warned. I'd rather they did that and diffuse the situation rather than bite.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> Your more patient than me, bad hips or not , i could not have a dog of that size in a house with me and the kids with that behaviour . I know you should work with a dog to try and work out issues but i just couldn't risk it.


I absolutely agree. What are you going to do when one of your kids gets badly hurt. I think you are taking a huge and unnecessary risk with him. And I would certainly correct (hard) any dog of mine that growled at me unless it was ill or injured at the time. And if it had a long term painful condition it would have to learn that it was not to threaten me if I touched it.

I cannot understand this thing on here about not correcting a bad mannered dog. If your child hit out or kicked at you when you did something to it that it did not like would you just let it go as that was a normal way of communicating displeasure - maybe some people do of course, maybe that is why there are so many violent people in this world.

Our dogs have to learn that they have no right to threaten us if they are not happy with what we do.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dogless said:


> But then maybe next time she wouldn't warn you? If Kilo growls I tend to work out why as he's communicating that something is making him unhappy. He has growled when I tried putting his equafleece on and it had a big thorn inside that I was pushing into him - I only looked at the equafleece because he growled both times I tried to pull it down over his chest. If I'd punished the growl maybe he wouldn't bother the next time and decide that decide that he needs to snap?


You know, that is a fine example of why one should pay attention when a dog growls. Poor Kilo would have been in pain had you forced the issue without finding out what the growling was all about. I personally would not stop a dog from growling, even if I did not think the situation warranted it. Obviously the dog does, and he deserves some consideration. Ferdie will growl if my son goes too close when he has a bone; nothing will happen because he will back off and a child would also be taught to back off. In fact, when I had young children about, the dogs did not have bones at all.

Redginald, it is possible that Cooper had all his attention focused on you and did not see your girlfriend coming. She may have startled him by just touching his head out of the blue. He is a grump, but that is not his fault is it? I think you need to treat him like grumpy old grandad, even though he is only young, and be careful that he always knows you are there before you touch him.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> You know, that is a fine example of why one should pay attention when a dog growls. Poor Kilo would have been in pain had you forced the issue without finding out what the growling was all about. I personally would not stop a dog from growling, even if I did not think the situation warranted it. Obviously the dog does, and he deserves some consideration. Ferdie will growl if my son goes too close when he has a bone; nothing will happen because he will back off and a child would also be taught to back off. In fact, when I had young children about, the dogs did not have bones at all.
> 
> Redginald, it is possible that Cooper had all his attention focused on you and did not see your girlfriend coming. She may have startled him by just touching his head out of the blue. He is a grump, but that is not his fault is it? I think you need to treat him like grumpy old grandad, even though he is only young, and be careful that he always knows you are there before you touch him.


He has never growled at me before or since (unless in play - totally different sounding growl and with play bows / jumps) so, yes, if he growls I am going to listen. He has growled at other things of course, but I still like to try and fathom why.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

There is a difference though between a dog that you know well who suddenly growls out of the blue and you obviously look for the cause. If one of mine growled I would know something was wrong.
But Cooper is growling and SNAPPING and there are children being threatened by him.
Sorry to say I think it is a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> I got in from work and was met by an excitable Cooper, once he got on 4 feet i crouched and fussed him, he was ok, then my gf came in and stroked his head, he was ok then growled at her  she stepped back and said "COOPER !!" i took his collar and said COOPER"NO!" he kept growling then growled, followed by a lugnge/air snap
> 
> Im sorry but this didn't seem fear based, could it be jealousy?? or something else, its really worried me.
> 
> Took him for a walk and a family the other side of the road shouted how beautiful he is, we were talking for a bit and i was asked does he have a good temperament?? In a word, "No" i had to say, i explained his hip needs sorting so don't know how much is caused by that, but its a shame i have to say it.


Did you stroke his head when he was OK? and did your GF stroke his head amywhere near his ears? Jut a thought but could his ear problem have flared up again?


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Blitz said:


> I cannot understand this thing on here about not correcting a bad mannered dog. If your child hit out or kicked at you when you did something to it that it did not like would you just let it go as that was a normal way of communicating displeasure - maybe some people do of course, maybe that is why there are so many violent people in this world.


This comparison doesn't stand because children can use better methods of communicating their anxiety/discomfort. Dogs tend to get their more subtle methods of communication soundly ignored by humans and the growl is the fist thing we notice. And then we punish them for our own ignorance of their previous communications?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I absolutely agree. What are you going to do when one of your kids gets badly hurt. I think you are taking a huge and unnecessary risk with him. And I would certainly correct (hard) any dog of mine that growled at me unless it was ill or injured at the time. And if it had a long term painful condition it would have to learn that it was not to threaten me if I touched it.
> 
> I cannot understand this thing on here about not correcting a bad mannered dog. If your child hit out or kicked at you when you did something to it that it did not like would you just let it go as that was a normal way of communicating displeasure - maybe some people do of course, maybe that is why there are so many violent people in this world.
> 
> Our dogs have to learn that they have no right to threaten us if they are not happy with what we do.


Thank goodness for some sense.....I was beginning to think I was on another planet.....dogs being applauded for growling to give warning to a family member. How about the dog walks away if its not happy!

For the record......Redginald please dont think I am knocking you at all. You couldnt do more for Cooper. Your GF is also amazing for how much support and hard work put in for Cooper. I just think that growling at your GF is whole other problem and I too would be very concerned.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I absolutely agree. What are you going to do when one of your kids gets badly hurt. I think you are taking a huge and unnecessary risk with him. And I would certainly correct (hard) any dog of mine that growled at me unless it was ill or injured at the time. And if it had a long term painful condition it would have to learn that it was not to threaten me if I touched it.
> 
> I cannot understand this thing on here about not correcting a bad mannered dog. If your child hit out or kicked at you when you did something to it that it did not like would you just let it go as that was a normal way of communicating displeasure - maybe some people do of course, maybe that is why there are so many violent people in this world.
> 
> Our dogs have to learn that they have no right to threaten us if they are not happy with what we do.


A dog that growls is not being bad mannered...he is telling you in the best possible way he can that he does not like what is happening at that moment in time... he can't say in words ' please stop I don't like that' so he growls...same meaning

if I was doing something to my child that she did not like she would tell me.. not kick out ..


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Im trying to work out what happened, our kitchen is small, and looking at it he may have felt cornered, when he snapped in the past its been when I've cornered him and tried putting on his headcollar, wondering if he feels threatened when cornered (we didn't intentionally corner him) 

I've noticed if I've pet him on the stairs and "blocked" his exit he's appeared nervy so I've moved away. 

I've been updating our behaviorist on the hip situation as I've asked if she could help if we need to crate train him, and any fallout after the op we will need help with. I think she's on leave but will let her know.

The vet was speaking to us about his behavior, he raised an eyebrow when i said his behavior is fear based, he said he agreed mostly but he felt the behavior he saw wasn't ALL fear based, but he's a vet and will go with the behaviorist.

Cooper is a strange beast, lately we had be saying his aggressiveness in regards to resource guarding has dropped a bit, he does it for attention alot of the time Im sure of it. He's not scared of my hands, if i reach for his line, it goes one of two ways, if calm he allows, if worked up (normally why he's timed out) he will dodge any advance towards him, but its not aggressive as such, he tries to turn it into a play fight, he does bite me if given the chance (no force) will weave roll and kick, i ignore it and firmly lead him out. 

He was just trying to rip down a picture frame, i pointed at him and said he"no" he bit (mouthed) me and ran around being an idiot, i just lead him out again.

I don't talk much of this behavior, we time him out as we've been told but it doesn't lessen, the thing is its in appropriate but not threatening, i have bigger fish to fry with the lip curls and growling.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I absolutely agree. What are you going to do when one of your kids gets badly hurt. I think you are taking a huge and unnecessary risk with him. And I would certainly correct (hard) any dog of mine that growled at me unless it was ill or injured at the time. And if it had a long term painful condition it would have to learn that it was not to threaten me if I touched it.
> 
> I cannot understand this thing on here about not correcting a bad mannered dog. If your child hit out or kicked at you when you did something to it that it did not like would you just let it go as that was a normal way of communicating displeasure - maybe some people do of course, maybe that is why there are so many violent people in this world.
> 
> Our dogs have to learn that they have no right to threaten us if they are not happy with what we do.


That approach worked really well for Cesar Milan in the recent post. He had a dog growling and baring it's teeth and decided to correct it by hitting it on it's nose and ended up with holes in his hand. Apparently he didn't see it coming although oblivious to the warnings the dog was giving. If a dog doesn't get what it wants by using a low level of aggression then it will escalate it to a higher level.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> A dog that growls is not being bad mannered...he is telling you in the best possible way he can that he does not like what is happening at that moment in time... he can't say in words ' please stop I don't like that' so he growls...same meaning
> 
> if I was doing something to my child that she did not like she would tell me.. not kick out ..


I dont agree. How many times do you hear of people that cant get their dogs off the furniture etc because dog growls and they are scared. The dog has growled at the owner and been ignored so the problem escalates until the dog is dangerous. I have actually had to go into a house with a dog catcher and capture such a dog before - not a pretty sight and would have been so much easier to correct the dog the first time it tried it on. And most dogs that growl are trying it on and then get braver and braver when their technique works.
I have even seen on here people with aggressive dogs being told to lure them with food - how on earth is that going to help the problem in the long term.

And a toddler often tries to communicate by kicking out. They get corrected and they stop doing it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Ive found something that you might find interesting and maybe put your mind at rest a bit

It is common knowledge about animals being in pain can be reactive and even aggressive. Its possible that if that hip is a shot as the vet says, that certain movements or if he bares too much weight on that hip in certain stances it gives him more pain then others. Ive just done something to my right hip over the last few days and I can be walking, then all of a sudden I cant even bare weight on it and the pains crippling or if I stand in a certain way or twist slightly in a direction it comes on suddenly, so Coops could have something similar pain wise with his, if he gets sudden pain that could be doing it. Some dogs are stoic and can handle it and you dont even know they have pain, others really cant handle it.

Don&#039;t Touch Me There! Aggression in dogs and cats

Just had a thought has the vet give coops any pain relief at the moment? If he hasnt Im jut wondering if he puts him on a course of anti inflammatory pain killers if you will see any improvement in his behaviour might be interesting to find out to see if he is any better. If he is then you will know if pain and pain reaction is a large part of the problem at least.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I dont agree. How many times do you hear of people that cant get their dogs off the furniture etc because dog growls and they are scared. The dog has growled at the owner and been ignored so the problem escalates until the dog is dangerous. I have actually had to go into a house with a dog catcher and capture such a dog before - not a pretty sight and would have been so much easier to correct the dog the first time it tried it on. And most dogs that growl are trying it on and then get braver and braver when their technique works.
> I have even seen on here people with aggressive dogs being told to lure them with food - how on earth is that going to help the problem in the long term.
> 
> And a toddler often tries to communicate by kicking out. They get corrected and they stop doing it.


 a toddler corrected by meaning a smack?


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

He's on 227mg of previcox a day, part of the reason the vet is holding off an op is to see how coopers behavior changes in less pain (theoretically) 

I don't know what to think, he doesn't mind me touching his leg, i just clumsily bumped his hip passing him in a doorway and he didn't flinch. He will happily bounce around on 2 legs like a kangaroo when excitable 

was just rubbing his ears myself with no reaction, he seemed to like it.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

paddyjulie said:


> A dog that growls is not being bad mannered...he is telling you in the best possible way he can that he does not like what is happening at that moment in time... he can't say in words ' please stop I don't like that' so he growls...same meaning
> 
> if I was doing something to my child that she did not like she would tell me.. not kick out ..





paddyjulie said:


> a toddler corrected by meaning a smack?


Totally up the parent what form of correction they use. Most would use a sharp tone of voice I would have thought.
I certainly would not recommend smacking a growling dog though unless you want your hand taken off.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> And a toddler often tries to communicate by kicking out. They get corrected and they stop doing it.


Its sad that anyone's mindset to a weaker being trying to communicate is to 'correct' them and stop them bothering to try and communicate in future....

I asked you once before how you personally 'correct' a growling dog. Im still interested.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

I think it is worth remembering that a dog's behaviour is always reasonable and appropriate from the dog's point of view.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Shadowrat said:


> Its sad that anyone's mindset to a weaker being trying to communicate is to 'correct' them and stop them bothering to try and communicate in future....
> 
> I asked you once before how you personally 'correct' a growling dog. Im still interested.


That is rubbish. If someone comes up to you and tries to communicate with you either verbally or physically in a way that is inappropriate you put a stop to in whatever way you feel at the time is the best and safest method.
If your child shouts at you and demands something do you give it to them or do you ask them to modify their behaviour.

Same with a dog.

I cant really answer your question as it would depend on the situation and the dog in question.
If one of my dogs growled at me because I was taking a toy away, or putting them off the furniture (and no way would they growl so this is hypothetical) I would really tell them off and would carry on doing what I wanted to do. If I was, as Dogless was, doing an every day thing like putting a coat on and the dog growled I would assume something was wrong and look for the reason why.

If it was a strange dog and it growled at me I would probably remove myself. If I had no choice but to handle it then I would assume it was nervous and reassure it.

But in Reginald's case with Cooper I would not tolerate being growled at as I have a feeling that behaviour is going to escalate from what he has said in his other posts too.

It is fair enough to say do not correct a dog for growling if there is a good reason. But so many dogs learn to growl to get their own way and to intimidate and if those dogs had been stopped the very first time they did it then there would probably have never been a problem.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I have to say I think you have tried harder than many people would to do your best by Cooper. I can't offer any practical advice, but I just wanted to say I feel for you, your family & Cooper & hope you have an upturn in his situation soon


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Can i point out no one is saying that we should applaud Cooper for growling, however for people that have been following the story I think it is becoming clear Cooper isn't a 'normal' dog. Sorry OP.
Firstly his hip is shot, it could be in the past that the GF has done something to cause him pain and he fears her.
Lexi has and does growl at me, when holding her steriod spray, I know why, because she knows I am going to spray it and it bloody hurts I know I once got it in a paper cut and it made me squeal.
Cooper resource guards various things it could be he is resource guarding the OP. Bos resource guarded, I got growled at and i worked with him in a positive way and the growling stopped. If I had forced the issue, either ignoring the growling or punishing the growling i am in no doubt I would have been bitten at some point.
No dog growls for no reason so realistically you need to listen to them and find out why they are growling not punish the growl and ignore the reason.
How else are they supposed to communicate? Or would prefer it if your dog didn't tell you they were upset, in pain, grumpy?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Werehorse said:


> I think it is worth remembering that a dog's behaviour is always reasonable and appropriate from the dog's point of view.


oh very true. So is a horses when it kicks your face in. So is the yob on the street when he sticks a knife into you. After all you looked in his direction so you became a threat to him.

Our job is to teach our dogs what is reasonable and appropriate behaviour for a pet dog living in our home and I do not believe allowing it to growl at us is reasonable or appropriate.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> No dog growls for no reason so realistically you need to listen to them and find out why they are growling not punish the growl and ignore the reason.
> How else are they supposed to communicate? Or would prefer it if your dog didn't tell you they were upset, in pain, grumpy?


This, many times over ^^


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> You know, that is a fine example of why one should pay attention when a dog growls. Poor Kilo would have been in pain had you forced the issue without finding out what the growling was all about. I personally would not stop a dog from growling, even if I did not think the situation warranted it. Obviously the dog does, and he deserves some consideration. Ferdie will growl if my son goes too close when he has a bone; nothing will happen because he will back off and a child would also be taught to back off. In fact, when I had young children about, the dogs did not have bones at all.
> 
> Redginald, it is possible that Cooper had all his attention focused on you and did not see your girlfriend coming. She may have startled him by just touching his head out of the blue. He is a grump, but that is not his fault is it? I think you need to treat him like grumpy old grandad, even though he is only young, and be careful that he always knows you are there before you touch him.


He was looking at her and just growled, he's in the living room with her now and he's just being mischievous


Blitz said:


> I absolutely agree. What are you going to do when one of your kids gets badly hurt. I think you are taking a huge and unnecessary risk with him. And I would certainly correct (hard) any dog of mine that growled at me unless it was ill or injured at the time. And if it had a long term painful condition it would have to learn that it was not to threaten me if I touched it.
> 
> I cannot understand this thing on here about not correcting a bad mannered dog. If your child hit out or kicked at you when you did something to it that it did not like would you just let it go as that was a normal way of communicating displeasure - maybe some people do of course, maybe that is why there are so many violent people in this world.
> 
> Our dogs have to learn that they have no right to threaten us if they are not happy with what we do.


I've not hit at him as i don't want him to resent hands touching him even more than he does already. If it were proven to me that a slap on the nose would improve the situation i would have no problem with it, but as it appears it wouldn't, (as shown by fewer milan )I'll give that routine a miss.


Snoringbear said:


> Redginald, I'd recommend Learning About Dogs Welcome to Learning About Dogs
> They do workshops on rehabilitation and anti-social behaviour. The trainer/behaviourist is fantastic and it's all clicker based. It's very cheap for what you get and only about an hour away.


Will look into it, want to try and stick with our behaviorist for now and follow it through. Looks like Im going to be using any of my holiday i have left on taking a few days off to look after coop if he has the hip replacement


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Blitz said:


> oh very true. So is a horses when it kicks your face in. So is the yob on the street when he sticks a knife into you. After all you looked in his direction so you became a threat to him.
> 
> Our job is to teach our dogs what is reasonable and appropriate behaviour for a pet dog living in our home and I do not believe allowing it to growl at us is reasonable or appropriate.


so...if a dog does not like what you are doing to it ... what is it supposed to do?

whack you with its paw?


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I do not believe allowing it to growl at us is reasonable or appropriate.


I don't think anyone here thinks its a good thing. But what Im saying isn't that a growl should be ignored or embraced, but the reason for the growl should be determined, and the dog worked with until it feels like it doesn't NEED to growl. 
They growl for a reason, and telling them off for the growl rather than figuring out why they feel the need to do it in the first place is cutting the head off a weed, so to speak.

How do you sort out food aggression, for example? By teaching the dog it doesn't need to guard its food, and that it has no reason to be concerned.
If a dog growls at you because it wants the sofa to itself, work out why it feels the need to keep you off, what it is worried about, and work to address that rather than just shut down the emotional response.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Blitz said:


> oh very true. So is a horses when it kicks your face in. So is the yob on the street when he sticks a knife into you. After all you looked in his direction so you became a threat to him.
> 
> Our job is to teach our dogs what is reasonable and appropriate behaviour for a pet dog living in our home and I do not believe allowing it to growl at us is reasonable or appropriate.


I quite agree. I just disagree with you on how you go about teaching it this.

I feel changing the dog's point of view on the issue is the way forward. I do not feel punishing it for giving a warning is the way forward.

Afterall I do not ignore a horse or punish a horse when it puts its ears back and lifts a leg - I try and figure out why it did it and de-sensitize the horse and make it realise that I am not a threat when I am doing that particular thing. Most yobs would also give some form of warning and there would be an opportunity to diffuse the situation.

A growl is not a bite. An inhibited bite is not a mawling. Before the growl there will usually be other signals (not talking Cooper here as I think he has gone quite far along the way to skipping these other signals from what I read, that isn't his fault).


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Out of interest the people that think growling shoudl be punished in certain situations, lets say your dog is on the sofa, you tell it to get down and it growls, what do you do next, to stop the growling and get the dog off the sofa?
I'm just interested in how different people deal with different senarios.


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## mollydog07 (May 26, 2012)

redginald said:


> Suppose its a possibility, don't think so though, she was stroking his head at the time.Seemed out of character even for him


Since my girl went blind she growls at other dogs and will go for them.shes frightened,she cant read them anymore.molly pulled away when i stroked her head,i thought she had a ear infection....little did i know it was a tumor,in fact the vet could find nothing wrong! then she suddenly went blind! all made sense.if coops doing something out of character rest assured there will be a reason.hopefully a different reason than mollys.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Sorry to hear your still struggling with Cooper 

If you're not already, perhaps it would be a good idea to keep a diary of Coop's behaviour to help identify any subtle triggers. I wouldn't hesitate to get in touch with the behaviourist you are working with, it's her job to help after all 

Also, may be totally irrelevant, but my friend's foster dog, when she was a pup, gave us a fright by growling and air-snapping when we tried to move her away from the front door by her collar. She became so fired-up and full of adrenaline when people came to the door that sometimes all her insecurities seemed to suddenly surface. We used a house line to control her carefully and calmly without getting into a confrontation to manage the situation short term.

All the best


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

redginald said:


> He was looking at her and just growled, he's in the living room with her now and he's just being mischievous
> 
> I've not hit at him as i don't want him to resent hands touching him even more than he does already. If it were proven to me that a slap on the nose would improve the situation i would have no problem with it, but as it appears it wouldn't, (as shown by fewer milan )I'll give that routine a miss.
> 
> Will look into it, want to try and stick with our behaviorist for now and follow it through. Looks like Im going to be using any of my holiday i have left on taking a few days off to look after coop if he has the hip replacement


It's definitely worth having a look and could well compliment what your behaviourist has said, especially if using a clicker. A lot of what she initially teaches is quite academic and a lot about brain function and behaviour. When I was there, I watched her with a dog far worse than Coop which would bite anyone who came up to her. She had that dog go willingly up to a stranger and be touched in less than ten minutes. I've never seen anything before or since as impressive as that.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

chichi said:


> Well you are obvs inferring that I am not "sensible" but thats okay because if your idea of sensible is not to correct a Huge growling dog. ....growling in his own home....at a family member showing kindness...... where there are small children present then Id say that borders stupidity.


I'd be even LESS inclined to correct a dog for growling in a home with small children. The last thing I'd want is the dog learning that growling just got him punished and going for a snap or a bite instead. A growl is communication, nothing more. And while it may not be acceptable for a dog to growl in situations like this it's better to actually resolve the issue than just correct the dog for saying "I'm not happy with this".


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

We use a house line with him, he kept chewing up the long one so now I've started using his old collar attached to his collar, its short enough to not annoy him, but unfortunately its short enough for him to block it.

I will say he steals and guards to get treats now, as soon as he sees you walk off to get something he drops what he's stolen. 

Last night my friend came around, met by coop being boisterous, i bought coop in and sat him and gave treats for sitting, i gave my mate some treats to give him aswell. Coop now and again would have"bully" him and i pulled him by his line a praised for sitting nicely, eventually he calmed down. I went upstairs and when i came back, he said "think I've made a new mate" and coop was sat beside him on the sofa.

After the good news about the insurance yesterday, and actually getting coop to settle with a stranger, today has been a massive downer. If i ever have to give him up, can't see me owning a dog again. 

I know his hip isn't helping anything, vet said himself he's seen aggressive dogs completely change and pain free after a hip replacement. I've been warned not to expect miracles, but its clear to me and probably most reading this Im fighting a losing battle here, i really think it needs doing and assessing afterwards, its got to be worth a try ?!

The behaviorist is on leave until Thursday


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> It's definitely worth having a look and could well compliment what your behaviourist has said, especially if using a clicker. A lot of what she initially teaches is quite academic and a lot about brain function and behaviour. When I was there, I watched her with a dog far worse than Coop which would bite anyone who came up to her. She had that dog go willingly up to a stranger and be touched in less than ten minutes. I've never seen anything before or since as impressive as that.


Worth a look then! , we don't use a clicker all the time with cooper but always use one to teach something new, he's always been quick to learn things, people probably read this thread and think I've no clue, they wouldn't be wrong, but may be surprised that Coop will sit,stay,lay,go to his bed, play dead if shot with my finger, high 5.* shame i can't teach him what NOT to do!

*will only perform circus tricks for mature cheddar.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

redginald said:


> I will say he steals and guards to get treats now, as soon as he sees you walk off to get something he drops what he's stolen.


Spencer does the same. This is where management has come in for us, not leaving anything lying around that we're bothered about. Being able to just ignore his attention seeking stealing has worked wonders. As soon as he realises we're not bothered he goes and lies down in a huff or goes and finds a toy to bring us.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Spencer does the same. This is where management has come in for us, not leaving anything lying around that we're bothered about. Being able to just ignore his attention seeking stealing has worked wonders. As soon as he realises we're not bothered he goes and lies down in a huff or goes and finds a toy to bring us.


We ignore it if whatever he's stolen is worth sacrificing, he knows the sky remote gets us up off our bums, you should see the state of it. He knows if you're calling his bluff, he will really start breaking it up if you ignore him . I actually pinched some old remotes from work as recommended by sdh , but forgot to bring them home. Will let him chew them if he gets them and hopefully he'll soon get bored.

He gives things up more readily now which is better, but its just one thing after the other with him.

I got shot down for saying i would cage him if i had a big enough cage in an old thread, i would, if anybody's reading this and thinks Im desperate to get rid of him they're wrong, i love this dog, Im desperate to get rid of his behavior as I've got family. If i won the lotto, i would throw a lion cage up and poke hot dogs through the bars, i could of course go in with him, Im getting the hang of reading him, in a home it can be like treading on eggshells


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

redginald said:


> We ignore it if whatever he's stolen is worth sacrificing, he knows the sky remote gets us up off our bums, you should see the state of it. He knows if you're calling his bluff, he will really start breaking it up if you ignore him . I actually pinched some old remotes from work as recommended by sdh , but forgot to bring them home. Will let him chew them if he gets them and hopefully he'll soon get bored.
> 
> He gives things up more readily now which is better, but its just one thing after the other with him.
> 
> I got shot down for saying i would cage him if i had a big enough cage in an old thread, i would, if anybody's reading this and thinks Im desperate to get rid of him they're wrong, i love this dog, Im desperate to get rid of his behavior as I've got family. If i won the lotto, i would throw a lion cage up and poke hot dogs through the bars, i could of course go in with him, Im getting the hang of reading him, in a home it can be like treading on eggshells


Yeah, Spen seems to know when you're calling his bluff as opposed to really not caring too. Bloody dogs! Spens favourite seems to be poo bags. Any chance he gets he grabs them and if I leave him with them he tries to eat them so obviously I have to get them back. Which results in a vicious circle of him stealing poo bags coz it's guaranteed to get him attention 

I don't think anyone doubts you love Cooper, if you didn't love him you wouldn't have gone this far with him. I really hope you can solve the problems you're having with him.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

redginald said:


> Worth a look then! , we don't use a clicker all the time with cooper but always use one to teach something new, he's always been quick to learn things, people probably read this thread and think I've no clue, they wouldn't be wrong, but may be surprised that Coop will sit,stay,lay,go to his bed, play dead if shot with my finger, high 5.* shame i can't teach him what NOT to do!
> 
> *will only perform circus tricks for mature cheddar.


if he is responding to the clicker ...you should keep using the clicker ...even when he has been taught something new...an old trick anything...a clicker is not just to teach him something new..its to mark a behaviour

i have clickers all over the house in the car etc .... A clicker does not learn him something new...you do, by clicking at the right time .telling him he doing it right


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Yeah, Spen seems to know when you're calling his bluff as opposed to really not caring too. Bloody dogs! Spens favourite seems to be poo bags. Any chance he gets he grabs them and if I leave him with them he tries to eat them so obviously I have to get them back. Which results in a vicious circle of him stealing poo bags coz it's guaranteed to get him attention
> 
> I don't think anyone doubts you love Cooper, if you didn't love him you wouldn't have gone this far with him. I really hope you can solve the problems you're having with him.


We try to be sensible, i posted the other day that he growled at my gf when she asked him to move when he was blocking the bottom of the stairs for my boy. If they have to pass him I normally lift them past, and he's not left with them. In fairness he seems more resilient to them than us, but we can't rely on that.

Having a small house doesn't help, we would cope if he behaved, but him being the way he is, it would be nice for everyone to have some more space, and to keep him out of the way if needed and not just separated.

As soon as the behaviorist is back I'll ask for some advice, will look into insurance for her too as its covered in the policy


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

I don't understand what the no-growling people are trying to accomplish by taking away a pretty innocuous means of communication from the dog. On the scale of dog aggression a growl is about as low as it gets. The dog cannot say 'ow, that hurts' or 'i'm scared' in any nicer way really. So why try to correct him from nicely asking us to stop/retreat/whatever?

We had a GSD/Lab cross once, a very big dog, but well socialised. One day my roomates' kids came over and (out of our sight) started to 'play' with him by pulling his tail and otherwise pestering him. He put it with it for a bit, but when he'd had enough he growled and they backed off. 

So had we taught that dog NOT to growl, either he would have just let them keep hurting him or ended up taking a chunk out of one of them.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> if he is responding to the clicker ...you should keep using the clicker ...even when he has been taught something new...an old trick anything...a clicker is not just to teach him something new..its to mark a behaviour
> 
> i have clickers all over the house in the car etc ....


We've got a few, they really worked for us as i felt it made it much easier to praise exactly what we wanted to praise, will make it everyday thing


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

DogWalker1234 said:


> I don't understand what the no-growling people are trying to accomplish by taking away a pretty innocuous means of communication from the dog. On the scale of dog aggression a growl is about as low as it gets. The dog cannot say 'ow, that hurts' or 'i'm scared' in any nicer way really. So why try to correct him from nicely asking us to stop/retreat/whatever?
> 
> We had a GSD/Lab cross once, a very big dog, but well socialised. One day my roomates' kids came over and (out of our sight) started to 'play' with him by pulling his tail and otherwise pestering him. He put it with it for a bit, but when he'd had enough he growled and they backed off.
> 
> So had we taught that dog NOT to growl, either he would have just let them keep hurting him or ended up taking a chunk out of one of them.


Exactly. I look at a growl as my dog saying "look, I don't like that" or "I'm really not comfortable in this situation". It's not like they can use words to say it and in all honesty they've likely been giving more subtle warnings that have been missed before they've resorted to a growl. I don't see what taking away their clear way of telling us they're uncomfortable achieves.

If my dog growled at me I'd be looking at WHY he growled and working on the trigger, not correcting the growl.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

redginald said:


> We've got a few, they really worked for us as i felt it made it much easier to praise exactly what we wanted to praise, will make it everyday thing


honestly..you train him to 'leave it' with a clicker you have got to continue with a clicker..if you dont . he is so going to be confused


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> honestly..you train him to 'leave it' with a clicker you have got to continue with a clicker..if you dont . he is so going to be confused


You mean use the clicker to mark the behaviour every single time? Even after the dog has learned it and is reliable?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> You mean use the clicker to mark the behaviour every single time? Even after the dog has learned it and is reliable?


in Coopers case i probably would have one in my arse pocket all the time ..

with mine now I click but do not always treat ...


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

If i ask for a sit, bum hits floor i click and treat. Thats the only way I've used it, and after a while he does it without the click


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I'd be even LESS inclined to correct a dog for growling in a home with small children. The last thing I'd want is the dog learning that growling just got him punished and going for a snap or a bite instead. A growl is communication, nothing more. And while it may not be acceptable for a dog to growl in situations like this it's better to actually resolve the issue than just correct the dog for saying "I'm not happy with this".


A growl is communication I dont find acceptable in the house towards humans. I havent had to correct this problem because it hasnt happened to me.

Every household has its own ideas boundaries and rules of what is acceptable and what is not. Nobody is right or wrong.....clearly the OP does not find growling acceptable and at the end of the day....what he thinks is what is relevant here.

You say not to correct the problem but to resolve it. With a dog like Cooper that is easier said than done. The OP cant do more than he has done and still he is struggling. I honestly dont know if I would have held on this far because raising kids is a full time job....let alone a stroppy (but very loveable) Cooper who must take up a lot of OP and his GFs energy.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> in Coopers case i probably would have one in my arse pocket all the time ..
> 
> with mine now I click but do not always treat ...


Ah, I ALWAYS reward if I click (even if I click accidentally) and I only use the clicker to teach new behaviours or to brush up old ones that have gotten a bit rusty not to maintain behaviours my dog knows.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

redginald said:


> If i ask for a sit, bum hits floor i click and treat. Thats the only way I've used it, and after a while he does it without the click


just keep clicking....so he knows its a good behaviour.....

remember the click is after the behaviour


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sorry....duplicate post


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah, I ALWAYS reward if I click (even if I click accidentally) and I only use the clicker to teach new behaviours or to brush up old ones that have gotten a bit rusty not to maintain behaviours my dog knows.


sometimes in training i will click 2/3 times esp/ walking to heel ..then he gets treated ...but its a big handful of treats

depends what you accidentally click 

If I get the clicker out my lad goes bloody mental :lol:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DogWalker1234 said:


> I don't understand what the no-growling people are trying to accomplish by taking away a pretty innocuous means of communication from the dog. On the scale of dog aggression a growl is about as low as it gets. The dog cannot say 'ow, that hurts' or 'i'm scared' in any nicer way really. So why try to correct him from nicely asking us to stop/retreat/whatever?
> 
> We had a GSD/Lab cross once, a very big dog, but well socialised. One day my roomates' kids came over and (out of our sight) started to 'play' with him by pulling his tail and otherwise pestering him. He put it with it for a bit, but when he'd had enough he growled and they backed off.
> 
> So had we taught that dog NOT to growl, either he would have just let them keep hurting him or ended up taking a chunk out of one of them.


Or the dog could have walked away.....

I would never leave my dogs alone with children I didnt 100 per cent trust because some kids can be little sh!ts if their parents havent taught them to respect animals and kids like that would not be allowed to touch my dogs...let alone pull them about.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

chichi said:


> A growl is communication I dont find acceptable in the house towards humans. I havent had to correct this problem because it hasnt happened to me.
> 
> Every household has its own ideas boundaries and rules of what is acceptable and what is not. Nobody is right or wrong.....clearly the OP does not find growling acceptable and at the end of the day....what he thinks is what is relevant here.
> 
> You say not to correct the problem but to resolve it. With a dog like Cooper that is easier said than done. The OP cant do more than he has done and still he is struggling. I honestly dont know if I would have held on this far because raising kids is a full time job....let alone a stroppy (but very loveable) Cooper who must take up a lot of OP and his GFs energy.


I was talking in general, not just about Cooper. And what is correcting him for growling going to achieve? It's certainly not likely to resolve the issue causing him to growl in the first place and is quite possibly going to backfire and result in a dog who doesn't growl and goes straight for something even less appropriate.

I've been there with a dog who thought nothing of growling or using his teeth on humans. We corrected him and corrected him, he became even more aggressive towards us. Once we started heeding his warnings and looking into WHY he was growling and working towards resolving those issues he stopped feeling the need to use his teeth at the slightest provocation. So no, I don't believe correcting a dog for a growl is the route to go down. Especially one who's already shown that he WILL escalate rather than back down. It's just asking for confrontation and with a dog as big as Cooper...well I wouldn't risk it!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> sometimes in training i will click 2/3 times esp/ walking to heel ..then he gets treated ...but its a big handfull
> 
> depends what you accidentally click
> 
> If I get the clicker out my lad goes bloody mental :lol:


Nah, the rule I was taught was click ALWAYS means a reward is coming. So even if you click accidentally you reward no matter what. Works for us


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Nah, the rule I was taught was click ALWAYS means a reward is coming. So even if you click accidentally you reward no matter what. Works for us


if you click accidentally you are marking the accident behaviour are you not which you dont really want


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> if you click accidentally you are marking the accident behaviour are you not which you dont really want


Ah but if you don't reward then the click doesn't always mean a reward is coming. Just the way everything I've ever read and watched about clicker training does it. Click ALWAYS means a reward is coming.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

chichi said:


> A growl is communication I dont find acceptable in the house towards humans. I havent had to correct this problem because it hasnt happened to me.
> 
> Every household has its own ideas boundaries and rules of what is acceptable and what is not. Nobody is right or wrong.....clearly the OP does not find growling acceptable and at the end of the day....what he thinks is what is relevant here.
> 
> You say not to correct the problem but to resolve it. With a dog like Cooper that is easier said than done. The OP cant do more than he has done and still he is struggling. I honestly dont know if I would have held on this far because raising kids is a full time job....let alone a stroppy (but very loveable) Cooper who must take up a lot of OP and his GFs energy.


I get what you're saying i really do, and Im not suggesting you're wrong, Im stood in a glass house, but i don't think anybody finds it acceptable for a dog to be growling in their home, but its not the growling that needs addressing, its what is making him growl. Get rid of that and you no longer have a dog growling at people.....well Thats the theory, Im using positive reinforcement and up to my eyes in unruly dog but Im sticking with it.

For what its worth i only joined pf for advice on my Labradors Lymphoma, Im a textbook numpty dog owner, and had done no research into dog training, my dog was family, he ate the same crap as me, and if he would nip as a pup he got a tap on the nose. I ended up with a loopy lab, mischievous, but absolutely bulletproof in regards to aggression it wasn't in him. 
I've never trusted a dog so much, so far in fact i would be surprised to find a dog anywhere as trust worthy as him with kids. He wasn't trained with any particular methods just common sense.

I've since learned alot on here and although bulletproof my lab wasn't obedient . I've learned hitting his nose etc is wrong. With Coop I've tried to do it by the book, i don't think tapping a dog on the nose is cruel, but can't see the point in it if it doesn't work. I've never done anything like this with cooper, everything been reward based, never punished. I've had my doubts but i honestly don't think what i used to do either redder would work with Coop either. Its apparent to me its not the training with Coop Thats failing, its prob a bit of everything . His hips, my inexperience and circumstances, and his breed traits. He's a very different dog to my lab, and Thats not been through his experience with me, if my lab stole a sock, and knew i wanted it he would leg it, if i caught him he would drop it. Cooper will not, that may sound like a nothing comment to some, but for me sums up the difference between two VERY different temperament dogs


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah but if you don't reward then the click doesn't always mean a reward is coming. Just the way everything I've ever read and watched about clicker training does it. Click ALWAYS means a reward is coming.


a click marks the behaviour that he has got it right........not that a treat is coming ... ...


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Punishing the growl until the growl behaviour ceases is like putting make-up over chicken pox and saying that you're cured. It's just not tackling the root of the problem.

Counter-condition, desensitize, teach a coping behaviour etc etc. The end result - the dog stops growling because it no longer feels unsafe in the same situation.

Noone is saying growling is a fantastic, acceptable behaviour that we all really want to encourage but if a dog is growling at a human - ultimately it will not be the dog's fault. It is not being rude, or pushy, or trying it on, it is not capable of those things really. We all anthropomorphise our dogs, of course we do it is part of the enjoyment of having the dogs in the first place but at the end of the day the dog is a dog and it understands only some very simple things, really, compared to all the abstract rubbish we can countenance. One of the key things is dog is safe or dog is not-safe and it learns behaviours through various interactions in order to stay in dog is safe as much as possible.

Through our actions we can teach the dog that dog is safe in a much wider range of places and experiences than it would learn on it's own.

If a dog is showing worried/anxious/aggressive behaviour it is because it feels dog is not-safe in that situation and shows us we need to work on making dog feel safe in that situation.

Meet a growl with a punishment and you confirm dog is not-safe, even if the initial dog is not-safe was related to something else like "dog is not-safe because food could be taken" you can layer a "dog is not-safe because dog will be hit" on top of the situation (food bowl with food in in front of dog). Double the feeling of not-safe and double the anxiety and the anxious/aggressive behaviour. With enough punishment, either in one go or over several goes you may suppress the growl behaviour but the anxiety, the dog is not-safe, that triggered the behaviour has not gone away. At the very best you have a dog with ongoing but repressed anxiety and stress, at the worst you have a dog that will esculate to full aggression with no warning...

However if you take a step back and think about what caused the dog to feel dog is not-safe you can then work on changing his mindset so that he realises that actually dog is safe and he can relax. That has got to be better for the dog, no?

I've no idea where this ramble came from or how much relevance it has to anything anymore! :lol: Beyond tired. BUt I'm, going to post it if only because I bothered typing it out!


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> Or the dog could have walked away.....


So.....every single time you're frustrated, scared, intimidated, or uncomfortable around someone, you walk off? You never tell them they're upsetting you? You never communicate your feelings, you never warn them that you're feeling a bit overwhelmed; you just leave, and you're happy to just leave rather than tell the person you're upset? 
What if its someone you live with, who is doing something to upset you on a fairly regular basis but doesn't realise it, would you just leave the room each time or would you eventually resort to communicating to that person that you're not happy with what's going on?
What if they then 'corrected' you for daring to communicate your unease, would that make you feel more relaxed, or more stressed? Would you be likely to bother expressing your discomfort passively next time, or would you just end up getting more distraught because you know your attempts at maintaining peace by communicating were shot down and viewed negatively, and exploding at them?

Why should we as humans be allowed to use our natural communications to tell those around us how we feel, but dogs are expected to just put up and shut up? A dog isn't allowed to tell you its uncomfortable, its expected to just 'leave'? Why would one wish to prevent a social animal from communicating with the rest of its group? I really do wonder what people expect a dog to do to tell you its upset if it is not allowed to growl? I'd love an answer.
Or are dogs not allowed emotions? Dogs should be completely 100% ragdolls who should allow anything to be done to them, and should like it. And if they don't like it, they shouldn't be allowed to say so?

A dog growling is communicating to its owner that it doesn't feel comfortable with the situation, he's trying to talk to you, and he gets reprimanded for it? Rather than trying to work out WHY he's doing it? Thats just ass backwards, to me. Its punishing the dog for telling you its not happy. Try to imagine living in a world where you were 'corrected' or 'reprimanded' or whatever people want to call it, whenever you tried to express something to someone.

My dog has never growled at me, but if he did, my first thought would be 'there is something wrong here, I have to find out what' not 'goddamn it don't you dare growl at me!!!!' 
I just.....I find it sad to reprimand an animal for trying to talk to us, because we're too ignorant to understand. 
Why are we allowed to communicate as much as we like in our lives, but they aren't?

I kinda wish the people who are all for punishing growlers had to live a week of their life being reprimanded whenever they expressed an emotion of unease/discomfort to those around them, see how secure and reassured they felt when everyone just got angry at them for doing so.


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

chichi said:


> Or the dog could have walked away.....


Maybe the dog did try to walk away and the kids followed him, still thinking they were 'playing'? Should he go break through the front door and run out in the street next?



chichi said:


> I would never leave my dogs alone with children I didnt 100 per cent trust because some kids can be little sh!ts if their parents havent taught them to respect animals and kids like that would not be allowed to touch my dogs...let alone pull them about.


Lol, you're trying to spin my story so that these kids were horrible children who were deliberately torturing the dog, and we were horrible owners because we just 'let them pull him about'. That's quite the stretch.

For one, the dog was bigger than both the 11 and 8 year old kids put together, and was certainly capable of sticking up for himself (as the events showed).

For another, the kids said they were just 'playing' with the dog and we believed them. They just didn't understand at the time that there was a good and a bad way to play. The dog made that point for us in a nice way and we reinforced it. It only took one growl for them to get the message.

Of course we could have just told the kids not to go anywhere near the dog, but I guess my roomate thought that was unnecessary with a well socialised dog and decent kids.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> a click marks the behaviour that he has got it right........not that a treat is coming ... ...


It basically tells a dog "yep, that's the behaviour I want, a reward is coming". At least that's how pretty much everyone I know who clicker trains uses it and how the stuff I've read and watched uses it. So the click is always followed by a reward. I know one person who uses the clicker as a keep going signal instead though, for things like heelwork, stays etc.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

I think this hits home for me because I have anxiety, and it reminds me quite a lot of a situation I found myself in. 

I not gonna say who it was with, or the specifics, but it went like this:
I was uncomfortable/upset at the way someone was acting around me. They didn't realise they were upsetting me, they definitely weren't doing it deliberately, but none the less, it was setting my anxiety off like no tomorrow. 
I tolerated it as best I could for a while, for the sake of peace. 
Then it really became too much. I had to say something, for my own benefit, and because I didn't want to end up hating this person for something they didn't even know they were doing wrong. I liked this person, and I wanted peace to be maintained because I wanted us to remain friends.

So I expressed that I was unhappy with those actions, and that I'd rather they didn't take place any more, was as nice about it as I could be while still letting them know how much it got to me and that I really would rather not experience it again. I thought as rational adults, we could get through it together.

Said person exploded at me. They began telling me I was stupid for feeling that way, that I was being completely unreasonable, and basically made me feel a complete idiot, and quite intimidated, that I'd dared to express my feelings to them.

Long story short, I never got the confidence back to tell this person about any other issues in our friendship ever again, no matter how small, because I just didn't want the confrontation or to have drama like before. 

In the end, I just......distanced myself from them. I found them too uncomfortable to be around because I knew that if I ever felt unhappy about anything, I had no option but to put up and shut up. If I'd tried to say anything, it would end negatively. That just ramped up my anxiety around them, made me feel on edge around them a lot because I knew they didn't respect my feelings on what were, to me, important issues, even if they weren't important to them. I had no trust in them any more, and no security that they 'had my back'.

So I basically ended up severing ties with someone I actually liked 90% of the time, all because they responded so poorly to me expressing my feelings on things, and gave me such a lack of trust in them as a friend to ever recognise or understand how I was feeling; they'd made it clear they thought my feelings were unreasonable and not wanted. 
People might think this is irrelevant to a dog's mind set, but they are intelligent, social animals. And communication within the social group is important for group living animals, of which we are one.
When we, or any group living animal, feels it is not being listened to, or is being treated negatively for trying to communicate, it will just stop communicating eventually. 

And if, like me, you can walk away from that social interaction, well, so be it, problem kinda solved. 
But if you're a dog, and you have no free will to disassociate yourself from this individual, where do you turn? Shut down completely, or take it the other direction and resort to upping your warnings so they have to take you seriously?

I understand, basically, what it is like to be around someone who doesn't listen to your concerns, and actually responds negatively to your concerns. It isn't nice, and I can only imagine it is the same for dogs, but they don't have the ability to rationalise why the other person responded that way. They just know they're being told off for telling their friend their feelings.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The thing is until his hip is sorted you really don't know how much pain he is constantly in. Hip pain is apparently excruciating according to patients I have spoken to, couple that with him being an animal and not taking it easy when he feels pain he will be constantly grumpy. 
It's not something I experienced when Flynn had bad hips, poor Flynn even had a hip dislocation for a few days and the only reason I knew he had severe pain was because of how he cried out on occasion but never once did he turn or even growl at any of us but Flynn has a very sweet disposition. 
I think most dogs would be aggressive when in pain and I really feel for Coops that he's having to wait for the vet to come back off of holiday to be referred, surely any vet at the practice can send a referral by reading up on his notes. 

Is he on regular NSAID therapy? Flynn was and he was having water treadmill sessions to build up muscle but once he had his x rays and HD diagnosed he was at Noels within two weeks. With the weight that Coop carries even just in getting up from a lying position he must feel immense pain as the hips take the full impact on every movement. 

Now you know he can be treated via the insurance I'd get him sorted sooner rather than later as you won't know if his grumpiness is caused by a bad temperament or constant nagging pain.

ETA - All the treats, clickers and bribes in the world ain't gonna work if it's a pain related issue, it's just a waste of time and a way if adding more weight on those unsound hips. As for kids, I wouldn't let one within 100 yards of my dogs cos I just don't trust them - kids that is! My own kids when younger yes but never anyone else's! Many are not raised knowing how to respect the rights of a dog!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DogWalker1234 said:


> For one, the dog was bigger than both the 11 and 8 year old kids put together, and was certainly capable of sticking up for himself (as the events showed).
> 
> For another, the kids said they were just 'playing' with the dog and we believed them. They just didn't understand at the time that there was a good and a bad way to play. The dog made that point for us in a nice way and we reinforced it. It only took one growl for them to get the message.
> 
> Of course we could have just told the kids not to go anywhere near the dog, but I guess my roomate thought that was unnecessary with a well socialised dog and decent kids.


I only went on the information told and 11 and 8 year olds pulling a dogs tail....really.... I dont think that is normal or acceptable in any way. Socialised or not....no dog should be subjected to that. Perhaps thats why my dogs dont need to communicate by growling to humans.....because if they are uncomfortable they will come sit by me or go to their beds.

the growl


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Redginald I have nothing but admiration for your drive and determination to keep Cooper in your family. I just think that the situation youre in is quite a risky one.

All thats left to say for me is I wish you the best of luck with Cooper. Certainly if anyone can settle Cooper effectively into a family environment...it will be you and your GF....with support from the Behaviourist and I really hope the surgery goes well.


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

chichi said:


> I only went on the information told and 11 and 8 year olds pulling a dogs tail....really.... I dont think that is normal or acceptable in any way.


The children's behaviour is completely irrelevant to my point. The fact you keep focussing on it suggests to me you're unclear on what the purpose of relating my story was. I'm not really interested in debating whether the kids were being ignorant, naughty, or worse, or whether my roomate was a good father or not by having raised them. My point was that the dog was allowed to communicate his displeasure with them in a relatively gentle way that prevented further escalation.



chichi said:


> Socialised or not....no dog should be subjected to that.


Of course no dog should ever be teased, but again, if you're trying to discredit my argument about growling, then criticising the behaviour of the children isn't the way to do it. I'm not going for that.



chichi said:


> Perhaps thats why my dogs dont need to communicate by growling to humans.....because if they are uncomfortable they will come sit by me or go to their beds.


If your dog moves away from a situation it doesn't like, that's also perfectly fine. As I said, maybe our dog had also tried to move away but had been pursued.

I just think some people interpret a growl as some kind of 'talking back' (or if you prefer, 'dominance') when it really is just a way of communicating discomfort. But you're certainly free to hold your own opinions, even if I don't agree with them.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

There are certain behaviours I could expect from a three/four year old child but eight and eleven and tail pulling - no way. At that age they should know this is not a way to 'play' with any animal, at that age I'd expect at least a little understanding. As for believing kids, that's something I rarely do even if I choose not to state it! 

It's because of this kind of acceptance by some adults that I don't let kids near my dogs, I fear even their peers have little idea too!


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2012)

redginald , i read through this thread earlier on then logged off because i had so many thoughts racing round my head really trying to imagine myself in your situation.
in all honesty it is very easy for those of us that are not in your situation to comment from behind our computer screens and keep saying 'keep up with the reward based training' 'keep cracking on' 'keep in contact with your behaviourist' 'all will be okay in time' and so on.
for months there has been no sign of improvement in coopers behaviour , even with some of the best behaviourist involvement and every time i open one of your threads i do actually find myself cringing thinking to myself 'oh god , what has he done this time' hoping that it isn't too serious.
for a long , long time you've actually put cooper first and tried your hardest , harder than any other owner would have done with young kiddies in your house.
in all honesty (a lot of folk might disagree) i think it's time you actually started to put the needs of your family first over and above cooper and that is meant in the nicest way possible. for a long time i have actually had it in my mind that something tragic will happen when ive read through threads and observed coopers behaviour on film. there is no doubt cooper is a gorgeous dog , he is lovely - and i do think because folks here have known him and watched him grow from a puppy into what he is now it has impacted people all folks can see is a beautiful dogue with so much character and expression , sadly they / we don't have to live with the behaviour he is now showing in your home towards yourself and your girlfriend.
from here redginald i really don't know what to advise you've really done as much as you can finances and time permitting and already made so many sacrifices for cooper along the way , you cant really do anymore than you already have and i really feel for you
yes it may be cooper is in pain , but the behaviour is simply not acceptable maybe it would be a good idea to have a long in depth chat with all that are involved with cooper to get an honest and realistic opinion on what should really happen next because the fact of the matter is , no one here knows what you are going through with him , we don't see the behaviour and aren't in no way qualified to comment without seeing what is going on first hand.
i am disappointed though that so many don't see the delicate situation you are in regarding your family because something has got to give and coopers either going to tear you all apart OR something tragic will happen further on down the line.
thing is , what many folks probably dont actually realize is many , many of these 'mastiff' breeds are reowned for not actually realizing they are in pain it's a well known trait in many breeds like them they do actually have very high pain thresholds , read anything you wish but many folks including myself have failed miserably to actually realize something medical is effecting our dogs because they are experts at hiding it so i'll throw the theory out that it's behaviour relating to the fact he's in constant pain (under the assumption he's now on medication to control that) things should have been looking up for you and your family a long , long time ago , sadly things do seem to be taking a turn for the worst and i think in reality you have an awful lot of talking to people who are involved with cooper and an awful lot of thinking to do.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

DogWalker1234 said:


> The children's behaviour is completely irrelevant to my point. My point was that the dog was allowed to communicate his displeasure with them in a relatively gentle way that prevented further escalation.


Well that was lucky wasn't it? because had he just gone straight in for the bite no doubt he'd have been at fault!


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Well that was lucky wasn't it? because had he just gone straight in for the bite no doubt he'd have been at fault!


Yes it was lucky the dog had not been discouraged from warning someone he was getting pissed off. Thank you for validating my argument.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I think it's well worth considering what Diablo said because those are issues that need to be thought about.

I honestly would not be happy living with a dog that growled at me. Yes, I totally get that it's communication and needs to be understood and responded to as such. BUT what is going on with a dog who growls at being patted by a family member? Is he in pain? Is he resource guarding? It HAS to be sorted out. This is a dog who lives in a family situation.

I really admire you for your loyalty to and love of Cooper, Redginald but it's NOT easy.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

chichi said:


> Thank goodness for some sense.....I was beginning to think I was on another planet.....dogs being applauded for growling to give warning to a family member. *How about the dog walks away if its not happy! *
> 
> For the record......Redginald please dont think I am knocking you at all. You couldnt do more for Cooper. Your GF is also amazing for how much support and hard work put in for Cooper. I just think that growling at your GF is whole other problem and I too would be very concerned.


Yes, how about it does that? How about you speak Russian instead of English? A dog speaks dog language, a language that is understood by other dogs - another dog is not going to understand him walking away when he isn't happy, he is going to go after him.

Growling means he's not happy; walking away means sod all to a dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

redginald said:


> He was looking at her and just growled, he's in the living room with her now and he's just being mischievous
> 
> I've not hit at him as i don't want him to resent hands touching him even more than he does already. If it were proven to me that a slap on the nose would improve the situation i would have no problem with it, but as it appears it wouldn't, (as shown by fewer milan )I'll give that routine a miss.


What makes you think that correcting is a slap on the nose. I have been telling people for 40 years not to hit their dog or slap it on the nose - do you want to get bitten. You hit a dog on the nose it will come back at your hand.



LexiLou2 said:


> Out of interest the people that think growling shoudl be punished in certain situations, lets say your dog is on the sofa, you tell it to get down and it growls, what do you do next, to stop the growling and get the dog off the sofa?
> I'm just interested in how different people deal with different senarios.


I think we are unclear here on what is being punished. You are not punishing a dog for growling, you are correcting the behaviour that causes the growling. Dog is asked to get off the sofa and it refuses and growls at me, I would have it by the scruff and off the sofa before it could blink - then when it was where I wanted it it would get loads of praise.

Surely you are correcting what is in the dogs mind, not what is coming out of its mouth. So Cooper growls if he is being touched somewhere that hurts, you back off and apologise to him. He growls because someone wants to come by him you come down on him (verbally) like a ton of bricks. He is being told off for not letting you by and for arguing with you, not actually for growling.

It is sad that so many on here think a hard correction means a slap or beating - why should it.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Me:

"Mavis , Don't you dare do that again, that is very naughty and not acceptable"

does she understand what I have said?

I very much doubt it.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I think we are unclear here on what is being punished. You are not punishing a dog for growling, you are correcting the behaviour that causes the growling. Dog is asked to get off the sofa and it refuses and growls at me, I would have it by the scruff and off the sofa before it could blink - then when it was where I wanted it it would get loads of praise.


My ex tried that with Shadow. It resulted in him being bitten (not a proper bite but enough to make him back off) and Shadow still being on the sofa. And the next time Shadow was on the sofa and my ex went near him he got the snarly face before he could so much as ask him to move, trying to touch him resulted in super fast air snaps.

Not all dogs will just accept being pulled around like that and to be perfectly honest, I don't see why they should.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

DogWalker1234 said:


> Yes it was lucky the dog had not been discouraged from warning someone he was getting pissed off. Thank you for validating my argument.


I prefer not leaving things to luck - I have always used a technique called 'Forestalling Trouble' something I learned from child psychologist Dr Hugh Jolly. Perhaps that's why my kids at eight and eleven would have been raised to know better! 

I wouldn't know how I would respond to a growl from a dog of my own other than to be gob smacked, luckily it's never happened so I find these posts interesting. When I grab a passing Mal and give it a smacker on the nose or pick up one of my little guys and smother it's head with kisses it never dawns on me they might not like it and go for me or growl. I feel very sorry that Reg or his GF can't do that with Coops and hope once he's had his op he's a changed dog and they can lavish him with loads of cuddles.

Can't wait to see if this guy changes.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I prefer not leaving things to luck - I have always used a technique called 'Forestalling Trouble' something I learned from child psychologist Dr Hugh Jolly. Perhaps that's why my kids at eight and eleven would have been raised to know better!
> 
> I wouldn't know how I would respond to a growl from a dog of my own other than to be gob smacked, luckily it's never happened so I find these posts interesting. When I grab a passing Mal and give it a smacker on the nose or pick up one of my little guys and smother it's head with kisses it never dawns on me they might not like it and go for me or growl.


I think when you're in the situation with a dog who growls and who WILL escalate it can change your mind set. It's all very well wanting to punish a growling dog but when punishing it just pushes it to react even more aggressively it's only going to cause more trouble to keep doing so. I don't find a growl over things like getting off the sofa, not wanting to give up a stolen possession etc acceptable as such, it's not behaviour I want and it's not behaviour I'll just let go. But I work on what's causing the growling, not on punishing the growling.

I'd also be gobsmacked if my own dog growled at me. It wasn't the way Rupert reacted to things he didn't like and doesn't seem to be the way Spen does either. But I've owned a dog who did react with a growl and who wouldn't hesitate to get physical back if you started it.

I also hope Coop can be turned around, it's not nice living with a dog you have to worry about like this.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Redginald, I really feel for you. What an awful situation to be in and you should be really proud of yourself for being such a dedicated, loving owner. Not many people would have stuck with it that long.
However, I agree with Diablo and seriously look at all your options. 
A dog is supposed to enrich your family life and not endanger it. My dog is a friend and companion and not something I want to be wary of.
I also have 2 small kids and can only imagine how you feel when Coop is around them. Terence has never, ever growled at my kids and loves them dearly and I still watch them like a hawk when they play together.

As for the people who think Coop should have "walked away": I thought this was DOG chat and not "mythical creature who is able to rationalise and replicate human behaviour" chat.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Im so sorry your having such troubles. It seems so unfair to you all and you clearly care and are trying your best.

Is he for sure having thehip replacement as id imagine it involves a lot of handling him for things such as toileting and would he stand it?


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

Ours do that - we have 6 ddbs and a bullmastiff

Shabba and hooker the big boys always bark and growl at me and my son
( never my husband though :confused1: they know who feed em and which sid there bread is buttered on ) The girls that we have never do though

if my son comes in and they will always growl at him and crouch down as if they want to attack him 
my son who is 18, just ignores them and carries on with what he is doing, he will walk right past them 
ddbs then stop and come over for pet. They do this every day they see him, without fail - you would think by now that they know and recognise my son but nope they think they will get rid of him and get to sleep in his bed 

but not once have they ever bitten my son or me- its just there way of saying i think (You shouldn't be here  this house belong to me ) I have never felt that any of my ddbs were going to bite or attack me even when they growl at me when i come home

If one of them is in the lounge with me and my husband and my son comes in the do the exact same thing - honestly you would think that they want to kill my son it sounds awful but again its just the way these dogs are

I find they are naturally suspicious dogs - even to their owners a fair amount of time and thats what makes such excellent guard dogs. 
They are also a dog that will try to bully and rule the house if they think they can bully you they will by growling and being bossy then they will and once your afraid of them its a bit of a loosing battle

Luckily my son and myself are not scared of them in the slightest we trust our dogs 100 percent not to bite us or be aggressive to us

if Shabba is in the led outside by the patio doors and i come in the lounge with say a hat on or the brush to sweep up he will growl at me and bark until he realises its me despite us having him for over a year now

I dont take it personally or think that he is being bad he is just doing his job guarding his spot as such even though its my house

There is a difference between a growl from a ddb that is one that says i want to rip your head off and eat it and a growl that is done in surprise or warning you that they are there. Trouble is they both sound the bloody same so hard to tell

imo and its just my thoughts on it is that the worse thing your girlfriend did was to walk backwards and away from the dog showing she was scared of him although i know its hard not to 
I would never walk away from my dogs when they do this i just walk past them and ignore them i dont look at them i just carry on with what i am doing

When my son initially did this (walk away) it made the dogs worse as they were seeing that he was a bit scared so they were ( i assume thinking in a doggie way )

That this persons is scared 
why is he scared
Scared = danger 
So danger means that i ( the dog need to protect it self ) 
The dogs will come forward more with more growling

the lunge in the air bit dose sound a bit extreme our have never done this they growl and sound awful but havnt lunged



redginald said:


> I got in from work and was met by an excitable Cooper, once he got on 4 feet i crouched and fussed him, he was ok, then my gf came in and stroked his head, he was ok then growled at her  she stepped back and said "COOPER !!" i took his collar and said COOPER"NO!" he kept growling then growled, followed by a lugnge/air snap
> 
> Im sorry but this didn't seem fear based, could it be jealousy?? or something else, its really worried me.
> 
> Took him for a walk and a family the other side of the road shouted how beautiful he is, we were talking for a bit and i was asked does he have a good temperament?? In a word, "No" i had to say, i explained his hip needs sorting so don't know how much is caused by that, but its a shame i have to say it.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I absolutely agree. What are you going to do when one of your kids gets badly hurt. I think you are taking a huge and unnecessary risk with him. And I would certainly correct (hard) any dog of mine that growled at me unless it was ill or injured at the time. And if it had a long term painful condition it would have to learn that it was not to threaten me if I touched it.
> 
> I cannot understand this thing on here about not correcting a bad mannered dog. If your child hit out or kicked at you when you did something to it that it did not like would you just let it go as that was a normal way of communicating displeasure - maybe some people do of course, maybe that is why there are so many violent people in this world.
> 
> *Our dogs have to learn that they have no right to threaten us if they are not happy with what we do*.


Or....
Our dogs can learn that humans are not a threat, that humans are safe, and in turn not feel the need to protect themselves from us.
Thats how we have approached our rehab cases who showed threatening behavior to humans. It has worked wonderfully for us, and were no dog training heroes. Surely if some country bumpkin like me can figure out how to get a dog to trust and not feel the need to growl, others can too?

Redginald, I am so sorry you are having so many struggles.
I have to second what Diablo has said though. Sometimes, through no major fault of either party, certain dogs and certain families just arent a good match. I think this is the case with you and Cooper. I just dont think he is in the right home for his needs - not that you havent done your absolute best, and havent worked very hard with him, just that you guys arent suited for each other. It happens.

I think it may be worth looking in to a DDB rescue and seeing what your options are. It would be fabulous if you could get his hip sorted but if he does have surgery, there is a tremendous amount of rehab, with a dog on drugs and in pain, all of which is very likely to exacerbate undesirable behaviors. Ideally Cooper should be in a quiet foster home for his rehab, but I dont know how available foster homes are in the UK. I know several folks here in the US who would readily take a dog like Cooper, behavior and physical issues and all, but I just dont know what the situation in the UK is...

Anyway, just rambling here, but bottom line is, I really dont think you guys are a good match for each other, and the whole escalation of Coopers behavior is exceedingly worrying.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I think we are unclear here on what is being punished. You are not punishing a dog for growling, you are correcting the behaviour that causes the growling. Dog is asked to get off the sofa and it refuses and growls at me, I would have it by the scruff and off the sofa before it could blink


And it could also bite you before you could blink. You'd also have to be exceptionally strong to drag something the size and weight of a DDB off a sofa by its neck if it didn't want to move and doing so would cause it a lot of pain.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

appreciate peoples thoughts, got a lot of thinking to do. Just got in from a short walk with him and the kids. This really is heartbreaking to hear your thoughts aswell. 

I still want to go ahead with the hip op if i can, if he needs rehoming at least he'll have his hip sorted, then whoever rehomed him would "only" have his behavior to deal with. I really don't know at the moment. 

As Sdh suggested i looked in his ear and there is a small amount of dark wax looking stuff again so maybe his ears bad again. That said he'll let me rub his ear quite vigorously with no reaction. 

Im also wondering if he is getting an attitude with my gf, after all she spends most days with him and the kids, and is probably seen as the bad cop. 

I'll probably contact a rescue and let them know i may need their help.

in regards to the op, he would be sedated and crated after, ill take time off for the 1st post week, and I'll only take him out with no kids about, Im not worried about myself here, if it does make him that bad ill make sure its me that takes it, and cross the bridge then. 
Alot to think about........

By op i mean operation not me i won't be sedated unfortunately


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2012)

Snoringbear said:


> You'd also have to be exceptionally strong to drag something the size and weight of a DDB off a sofa by its neck if it didn't want to move and doing so would cause it a lot of pain.


LOL during her obnoxious teens one of our danes went through a phase where she would go jello dog on you. If she didnt want to get off a bed, or go where you wanted her to go, she would flop in to limp dog mode. She literally would go all floppy and you couldnt move her. It was hilarious, like trying to wrangle a 140 pound water balloon. She got a lot of laughs over that one so she still reverts to it in play sometimes. Its very cute, but a good reminder that if a giant breed doesnt want to do something, you cant *make* them.
That said, she is well mannered and mostly well trained, and does exactly as shes told most of the time, because she *wants* to


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> And it could also bite you before you could blink. You'd also have to be exceptionally strong to drag something the size and weight of a DDB off a sofa by its neck if it didn't want to move and doing so would cause it a lot of pain.


But we were not talking specifics were we. It was a general breed question that I answered. I am not aware that it was aimed at Cooper. Though having said that I used to handle a Bull Mastiff who would not do a thing its owner wanted and could and did pull him over. With correct TIMING I soon had him walking quietly beside me and watching me even though he weighed far more than me.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

One thing I would say Reg, is that none of us have seen Coops and the situations he reacts in and exactly what he does. All anyone can do on here is give you opinions based on experience and knowledge of things that might be causing it and best ways to handle it or things to try that they have known to work from experience.

Coops does still have issues true, but I believe you did say in certain things/ways you have had progress. You know he has a problem with his hip and from what you say from what the vet has aid its pretty badly shot, that can possibly explain some of the behaviour. He is also an adolescent so again they will have teenage strops so some could be down to pushing boundaries and seeing what he can get away with. From what you have said of the Breeder being raised outside and having several litters on the ground and dogs in number, there could also be an element therefore that he missed out on early habituation and socialisation and early handling and because of this isnt the most confident outgoing dog when outside in certain situations. Handling when things like putting in drops and stuff is also a problem. There was earlier mistakes too made by yourself in the handling of certain situations, and this is not condeming you by any means everyone makes mistakes and Hands up Im far from perfect I made mistakes with Kobis problems in the early days, mainly due to a lot of conflicting so called advice against my instinct and better judgement but ended up with being so confused with it all doubted my own judgement and thought that other people must be right and listened to them which is a danger with lots of conflicting advice and opinions.

You have a behaviourist and a decent one by all accounts, what has she said to you regarding coops behaviour and behaviour modification? Shes seen him after all where we havent, has she ever said the behaviour is a possible danger and that it is likely unfixable or she thinks it could escalate to dangerous levels, bearing in mind his physical problems aswell?
Most behaviourists are usually honest, mine certainly was, at the first assesment which was the turning point with Kobi she said he was workable but should she not see any improvements with folllowing the programme or he got worst she would give me honest opinions if she thought there was a danger problem even if it were advice we wouldnt want to hear.

She has seen him, and shes the one thats experienced plus I believe you had the previous guy too who didnt write him off either at the time. Personally I would go by what your behaviourist says and her assessment of him, because although we can try to help and make suggestions at the end of the day we havent seen him or the situations. A lot of things as Ive said before are similar to what I went through with Kobi in fact he was worse Ive shown you exactly what he was like, he ha turned around and is a terrific dog so its not always beyond the realms of possibility that they canbe turned around either. He found a big prize the other day a dead squirrel and was adamant he wasnt going to give it up at first, stood there jaws clamped with it sticking out either side of his face, He gave it up in the end, but not with one growl, air snap or nip like he would when he was at his worse in the early days.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Good Luck with everything Redginald! SDH you are awesome as always! :001_tt1:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes, how about it does that? How about you speak Russian instead of English? A dog speaks dog language, a language that is understood by other dogs - another dog is not going to understand him walking away when he isn't happy, he is going to go after him.
> 
> Growling means he's not happy; walking away means sod all to a dog.


Why do you compare dogs to humans.....dogs show other signs of displeasure that show they are not happy.....body language doesnt need to be growling. My dogs growl at each other but NOT at humans!

For those who are happy to have dogs growling at family members....thats your choice. Its not acceptable to me. ..never would be but in many years of a multi dog household that has multi children....I havent had a dog growl so I must be doing something right.

I would never leave my dogs unsupervised with young children or children of any age I didnt trust. If I have visitors that my dogs are not keen on...they take off to their beds...so yes dogs do understand walking away....aka.....removing themselves from a situation. If yours dont understand that and growl and you are happy about that...fine...but dont tell me what I SHOULD find acceptable.

I wasnt going to comment on this thread again but some people so want to force their opinions. How about you have your opinion and I will have mine.

What happened with Cooper and the OPs GF is another story. This dog has several issues and I havent said what I think R should do because I am not qualified to do so. Those who are saying to OP that its okay for this gorgeous but VERY unpredictable dog to be growling at family members....I hope you never have to wonder whether you contributed to what could potentially be a tradegy waiting to happen in the OPs home. I would be concerned if one of my little ones were behaving like Cooper let alone a huge dog in a small house with children. Diablos post said it all for me.....its great that OP has been so loyal to his very much loved dog but human family members come first...especially in a home with children.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Reginald...I just read your last post....sorry phone playing up so couldnt quote....but your dedication and love for Cooper is so massive it brought tears to my eyes. Please make sure you take care of yourself through all of this. Stress can be so damaging to health so try to take some Reginald time to relax....if possible. 

((((((hugs)))))))) to you and your GF


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2012)

chichi said:


> For those who are happy to have dogs growling at family members....thats your choice. Its not acceptable to me. ..never would be but in many years of a multi dog household that has multi children....I havent had a dog growl so I must be doing something right.
> 
> I would never leave my dogs unsupervised with young children or children of any age I didnt trust. If I have visitors that my dogs are not keen on...they take off to their beds...so yes dogs do understand walking away....aka.....removing themselves from a situation. If yours dont understand that and growl and you are happy about that...fine...but dont tell me what I SHOULD find acceptable.


I think you have misunderstood.

I dont think anyone is saying that growling at a human is acceptable to them, just that they would not deal with it by addressing the growl itself, rather the reason behind the growl. The growling becomes irrelevant if you figure out what is causing it and fix the cause of the growl.

I really dont think anyone is advocating for dogs to growl at humans. Nor that you should find it acceptable. 
Whoever made the great analogy that correcting a growl is like putting make up on chicken pox is spot on.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Here's the prognosis from the behaviorist hope its readable. Bare in mind this was a while back.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Blitz said:


> But we were not talking specifics were we. It was a general breed question that I answered. I am not aware that it was aimed at Cooper. Though having said that I used to handle a Bull Mastiff who would not do a thing its owner wanted and could and did pull him over. With correct TIMING I soon had him walking quietly beside me and watching me even though he weighed far more than me.


As a general breed question it was a pretty poor answer as there are breeds that won't work for. It's easy to overpower a breed that you are physically capable of doing so, quite a different story when it's one your not.

Although in no way comparable, well done for teaching the Bullmastiff some lead manners.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

terencesmum said:


> Redginald, I really feel for you. What an awful situation to be in and you should be really proud of yourself for being such a dedicated, loving owner. Not many people would have stuck with it that long.
> However, I agree with Diablo and seriously look at all your options.
> A dog is supposed to enrich your family life and not endanger it. My dog is a friend and companion and not something I want to be wary of.
> I also have 2 small kids and can only imagine how you feel when Coop is around them. Terence has never, ever growled at my kids and loves them dearly and I still watch them like a hawk when they play together.
> ...


Oh must check my dogs KC papers then...there was I thinking they were Chihuahuas and all the time they were mythical creatures.....which they must obviously be because they DO walk away rather than growl at humans. Sorry if that makes your eyes roll but its true.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> Oh must check my dogs KC papers then...there was I thinking they were Chihuahuas and all the time they were mythical creatures.....which they must obviously be because they DO walk away rather than growl at humans. Sorry if that makes your eyes roll but its true.


My dog has never, ever growled at me either. But I still wouldn't punish him if he did. Punishing an animal for communicating with you is......just horrible, to me. Heres hoping your dogs never do growl, but if they do, it is, to me, the reasonable action to ask why, not just punish.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> My dog has never, ever growled at me either. But I still wouldn't punish him if he did. Punishing an animal for communicating with you is......just horrible, to me. Heres hoping your dogs never do growl, but if they do, it is, to me, the reasonable action to ask why, not just punish.


Honestly...I dont know where PUNISHMENT is coming from. ......punishment conjurs up violence (to me anyway)...who in their right mind would be violent to a dog. I am talking correction....entirely different to me.

If my bitches have whelped....the kids are kept away until the bitch is happy to allow younger family members to join in puppy playtime.....if one of my dogs is unwell....kids will be told...leave X be.....she is not well....only go to her if she invites you. Alot can be done by using common sense.

Like I keep saying....Coop is a different kettle of fish entirely.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> Honestly...I dont know where PUNISHMENT is coming from. ......punishment conjurs up violence (to me anyway)...who in their right mind would be violent to a dog. I am talking correction....entirely different to me.


How would you 'correct' a growling dog, then?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

redginald said:


> appreciate peoples thoughts, got a lot of thinking to do. Just got in from a short walk with him and the kids. This really is heartbreaking to hear your thoughts aswell.
> 
> I still want to go ahead with the hip op if i can, if he needs rehoming at least he'll have his hip sorted, then whoever rehomed him would "only" have his behavior to deal with. I really don't know at the moment.
> 
> ...


I really think you have showed how decent a dog owner and a person you are and I truly admire how much work you have put into cooper.
When I see people want to rehome their dogs for what i would call flimsy reasons like a house move etc I think we should direct then to your threads.

I'm guessing if you take the week off then the rest in the day will be your gf.
If that's the case then I think they should really be working on their relationship and bond as well as letting her touch him etc in preparation and to make sure it can be done.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Here's the prognosis from the behaviorist hope its readable. Bare in mind this was a while back.


So back then although not up to date now, he wasnt seen as a complete right off.

Focusing on the last statement, with consistency - unwanted behaviour should diminish.

Are you the only one who does training sessions with him? If you are then that could well be some of the problem. Everyone needs to be on the same page and everyone needs to do the same thing. Which includes your girl friend and even the kids perhaps, They are too young to actively do some training themselves but there is nothing to say they cant sit and watch formal short training sessions and "help", and praise cooper and tell him he is a good boy when he does things that are asked. Your GF can actually actively do training sessions too getting him to do as asked and reward him and praise and treat him for it. If you all can get him "working" for you by following commands and get him to want to do as asked then that should help.

Also you need to all ask how you actually feel about him, If you all get fraustrated, angry, unsure wary or frightened of him at times, he will be reading it in your body language and manner and it will and does make them worse, whereas calm confidence on the other hand makes all the difference.
The turning point with Kobi was the day I changed my attitude and though whatever, stayed calm and got on with it if he was having a bad day and kept consistency up, instead of having thoughts before leaving the house of oh god is he going to be bad today and kick off, sometimes if you start or continue with negative thoughts instead of positive ones it makes the whole thing escalate and be worse.

Might be an idea if or as soon as you can afford it to get the behaviourist back and ask her to work with you all and your girlfriend instructing on training sessions and to re-asses him now and give you tips and pointers on how to get the best out of him and make him want to comply with your command requests. Attitudes and confidence of all the individuals to the dog can make a whole world of difference.Back then too you never knew of his hip problem and posible pain factored in.

Classic example someone I knew had a boxer/GSD, On one just one occasion, they had a visitor, the dog jumped up the visitor when she left knocked her flying and caught her with his nails quite badly as he jumped up, the woman wasnt dog savvy, panicked and a mad house insued. After that the lady of the house, worried and panicked he would do it again with visitors so thereafter the dog was shut out in the kitchen when anyone came, except close family I think who was there all the time or really regular visitors. Anyone else who came she immediately started to worry the dog would do it again. They asked me to go round and see what I thought, I went in, the dog was fine, gave him treats he sat there good by my chair the whole time, but the lady was sitting there visibly cringing and worried what he would do, but eventually relaxed when she could see everything was fine. Until I had to go,
then you could see the anxiety written all over her worried what the dog would do. He was fine I got him to sit, walked to the door, got him to sit and wait again told him he was a good boy and left. Most of the dogs problem was the owner, getting anxious and scared what he was going to do if he was there when visitors came. Dog didnt know any different he was reading her and all he knew was that visitors made her anxious and unsure, therefore were likely a problem so he would usually bark and bark and go mad when they came, and continue to do so when he was put out in the kitchen.

Ive waffled on as usual but just wanted to use it as an example of what we do and how we react can influence what the dogs do and how they can behave in certain situations.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Shadowrat said:


> How would you 'correct' a growling dog, then?


It would depend on the situation I suppose but I certainly wouldnt just go. ....oh poor dog must be poorly and start fussing him....instantly the dog would know I was displeased by my tone etc and I would remove the dog from the room.

I also wouldnt smack or hurt ANY living thing so dont confuse CORRECTION with any act of voilence...no matter how small.

I think I am pretty much on Blitzs way of thinking on this topic.

I do wonder if some breeds are just not on the human connection thing like mine. I only have to look at my dogs at times and they read what I want. If some of my dogs get hold of say a toy or some human object that they shouldnt have......I dont have to speak (say Im on the phone) I can click my fingers and look at the object and they drop it. Others do need the verbal "drop" command but they dont disregard commands past puppyhood and the learning phase.

Obviously I would check one of mine over after removing from the situation because it would be out of the norm for them to growl at a human but I wouldnt let the dog think that growling was acceptable from the moment it did it


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Thing is she sat stroking his head last night and he was fine, she even lifted his ears to have a look, but i told her to stop i would rather he resented or lashed out at me.

We were all in the garden a Coop run inside knocking my girl over on the way, couldn't tell him off, it was an accident but not sure how you communicate "you really should be more careful" to a dog. i picked her up and she was crying, he started getting excited and jumping at us, i put her in then he started jumping on me, i took his line and put him in the hallway. 

Sometimes in situations like this i feel the time out has a negative effect on him, he seems to feel left out but rather then change his behavior, he sulks and has an attitude for s while afterwards


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## sweetcharity (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi, im interested in what the behaviourist asked you to carry out.Had you a home visit?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

chichi said:


> It would depend on the situation I suppose but I certainly wouldnt just go. ....oh poor dog must be poorly and start fussing him....


I've not see ANYONE say they'd do this  What people have said is that they'd look for the reason _why_ the dog growled and work at resolving that issue. Whether that issue be pain, illness, resource guarding or whatever.

My kleptomaniac labrador doesn't growl or even give me a dirty look when I take his stolen goods off him. He just wags his tail and gives it up. If he did growl I wouldn't be impressed but I still wouldn't correct him, I'd do a hell of a lot more work on teaching him to give things up willingly instead.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

```

```



Sled dog hotel said:


> So back then although not up to date now, he wasnt seen as a complete right off.
> 
> Focusing on the last statement, with consistency - unwanted behaviour should diminish.
> 
> ...


I will contact her when she's back, don't want to rush a decision without speaking to her, ill ask for a visit aswell, will go through the insurance.

The 1st thing in her report was.......


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

redginald said:


> Thing is she sat stroking his head last night and he was fine, she even lifted his ears to have a look, but i told her to stop i would rather he resented or lashed out at me.
> 
> We were all in the garden a Coop run inside knocking my girl over on the way, couldn't tell him off, it was an accident but not sure how you communicate "you really should be more careful" to a dog. i picked her up and she was crying, he started getting excited and jumping at us, i put her in then he started jumping on me, i took his line and put him in the hallway.
> 
> Sometimes in situations like this i feel the time out has a negative effect on him, he seems to feel left out but rather then change his behavior, he sulks and has an attitude for s while afterwards


What happens if you ask him to do something incompatible with jumping up instead? Sit or down are my choice but not sure how suitable they'd be for a dog with hip problems  Fetch a toy works for Spen as well though, he can't be trying to dance on my head while he's looking for a toy.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

it was her who spotted his hip


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Thing is she sat stroking his head last night and he was fine, she even lifted his ears to have a look, but i told her to stop i would rather he resented or lashed out at me.
> 
> We were all in the garden a Coop run inside knocking my girl over on the way, couldn't tell him off, it was an accident but not sure how you communicate "you really should be more careful" to a dog. i picked her up and she was crying, he started getting excited and jumping at us, i put her in then he started jumping on me, i took his line and put him in the hallway.
> 
> Sometimes in situations like this i feel the time out has a negative effect on him, he seems to feel left out but rather then change his behavior, he sulks and has an attitude for s while afterwards


The way to "you really should be more careful" to a dog is to teach them acceptable ways to act in situations so back to the consistency and training again. All dogs when young and prone to over exciteability can occasionally forget their manners, but if they are taught to behave in certain ways in certain situations and you train self control a lot or most of it can be avoided.

Example dogs who jump up at visitors, dogs who jump up when they want something or knock people flying trying to get through doors to go out on a walk.

Its all training. You teach a reliable sit and then a sit wait in your training sessions. You then use it ongoingly in every day life once the command/response is in place. ie. They sit and wait when they want anything and before you give them anything. They sit and wait before you go out doors letting you through and then following when told to come, they wait at kerbs when crossing the road intead of dragging you into traffic, or if its a narrow pavement and someones coming with a buggy they are taught over to move out the way and wait to one side to let people past waiting or sitting calmly and dont move until told to come or walk on.

Initially you train and reward with praise and treats every time for doing as asked following the command and building confidence, and re-enforcing with the praise and treats, once learnt you use those commands for control in everyday life. Any commands with consistency and enough repetition and with praise and treats to re-enforce its wanted behaviour becomes a conditioned response to the command. Eventually as they get older you dont even have to do the formal training sessions putting them through the commands even, because those commands are being daily used and re-enforced as part of their every day life to control the dogs behaviour in certain situations. As everyones trained them then everyone should be able to use it to control the dog in certain situations when need be, if that makes sense.

If you learn a reliable wait and door manners for example, you should be able as a response to the command get him to stop and wait.

Same thing with leave and drop, you initially teach and work on it in training sessions and do repetitions, once learned, you use it to stop them grabbing something or even if they do you have drop as a standby. Its easier if you start to teach them all this in training sessions as pups when they are more dependant and eager to please granted, but its not impossible with Consistency (back to the behaviourists last statement again) unwanted behaviour should deminish and in its place commands and behaviour and control in situations you do want.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I've not see ANYONE say they'd do this  What people have said is that they'd look for the reason _why_ the dog growled and work at resolving that issue. Whether that issue be pain, illness, resource guarding or whatever.
> 
> My kleptomaniac labrador doesn't growl or even give me a dirty look when I take his stolen goods off him. He just wags his tail and gives it up. If he did growl I wouldn't be impressed but I still wouldn't correct him, I'd do a hell of a lot more work on teaching him to give things up willingly instead.


Most said they wouldnt correct....therefore dog thinks behaviour is fine. For me its far from fine.

I cant keep saying that its GREAT if thats what YOU are happy with in YOUR home. If you are not happy but just would allow it without the dog getting that you are not happy...then the behaviour COULD escalate. Thats not something I would take a chance on.

I wont EVER agree that a dog is okay to growl at humans.....for ME it is not acceptable


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

chichi said:


> Why do you compare dogs to humans.....dogs show other signs of displeasure that show they are not happy.....body language doesnt need to be growling. My dogs growl at each other but NOT at humans!
> 
> For those who are happy to have dogs growling at family members....thats your choice. Its not acceptable to me. ..never would be but in many years of a multi dog household that has multi children....I havent had a dog growl so I must be doing something right.
> 
> ...


Your dogs might walk off to their beds when they are not happy, because that is what they have been taught to do, though I doubt that is the reason they do so. I compare their language to a human language because that is what it is is, it is what other dogs will understand and it is up to us to learn their language.

Nobody is saying that growling in a threatening manner is acceptable behaviour, quite the contrary. What is being said is that they growl for a reason and it is up to us to discover that reason.



chichi said:


> It would depend on the situation I suppose but I certainly wouldnt just go. ....*oh poor dog must be poorly and start fussing him..*..instantly the dog would know I was displeased by my tone etc and I would remove the dog from the room.
> 
> I also wouldnt smack or hurt ANY living thing so dont confuse CORRECTION with any act of voilence...no matter how small.
> 
> ...


And whoever said they would for goodness sake?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Your dogs might walk off to their beds when they are not happy, because that is what they have been taught to do, though I doubt that is the reason they do so. I compare their language to a human language because that is what it is is, it is what other dogs will understand and it is up to us to learn their language.
> 
> Nobody is saying that growling in a threatening manner is acceptable behaviour, quite the contrary. What is being said is that they growl for a reason and it is up to us to discover that reason.
> 
> And whoever said they would for goodness sake?


You have nearly all said you wouldnt correct even though not happy with the growling but look for the reason.....how would the dog understand anything from your reaction. So you check the dog over...cant find anything wrong. The moment has passed.....next time dogs p!ssed off....growls at human again....possibility of habit forming?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

chichi said:


> Most said they wouldnt correct....therefore dog thinks behaviour is fine. For me its far from fine.
> 
> I cant keep saying that its GREAT if thats what YOU are happy with in YOUR home. If you are not happy but just would allow it without the dog getting that you are not happy...then the behaviour COULD escalate. Thats not something I would take a chance on.
> 
> I wont EVER agree that a dog is okay to growl at humans.....for ME it is not acceptable


But that's the thing, nobody is saying it's acceptable just to let your dog growl and "get away with it" as such. People are saying the dog is growling for a reason and we should find that reason, not just correct the growl.

As for it escalating if you don't correct the growl, what reason would there be for it to escalate if you know why the dog growled and take measures to teach it there is no need to do so?


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

A growl is a warning. It`s one of an escalating set of signals given by a dog who is under stress. 
Dogs do not understand Mine and Yours. (You must manage and train the situation - put your stuff away and train a Leave)
Dogs do not understand Be careful of the kids. (You are responsible for your child`s safety - train the dog to Come or Drop and you can halt the charge)
Dogs are not hairy people, they are animals. 
Animals can be trained to behave in certain ways. 
Animals need to be managed and guided for the sake of safety. 

I really don`t understand people getting affronted at an animal exhibiting stress (growling). If a horse put his ears back (same thing) or a cat stiffened, would you take it as a personal insult? 
Just because an animal shares our home doesn`t mean it`s people.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> it was her who spotted his hip


There you go then, Its a well documented fact as I said, even dogs without any issues and ones that are good as gold and well trained have been known to be grumpy snappy and even change behaviour uddenly with health issues.

We had a Thread once new member whos rottie had suddenly reacted agressively and snapped or might have even bitten a family member who was staying. Vet check was advised, turned out he had a heart problem, they hadnt even noticed any illness. Think if I remember rightly he died a short while after. So as mentioned before you cant totally factor out his hip as causing some of the behaviour. Maybe also speak to the vets about another pain/anti inflammatory med or see if there is something else. It could be the pain medication he has him on isnt even touching the surface. When Kobi had his limping problems we had him on Rimadyl, Metacam and even Onsior, none of which stopped the limping or even really shortened the re-couperation time
only rest seemed to fix it. So maybe he could still have some pain as they are not eliminating pain completely or when they begin to wear off and the next dose is due he gets pain. Not only that as I told you in an earlier post Ive done something to my hip and it seems OK sometimes then I walk the dogs and once Ive sat and stiffened up Im hobling and limping and its painful again after exercise. So posible even Coops gets pain at certain times.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> But that's the thing, nobody is saying it's acceptable just to let your dog growl and "get away with it" as such. People are saying the dog is growling for a reason and we should find that reason, not just correct the growl.
> 
> As for it escalating if you don't correct the growl, what reason would there be for it to escalate if you know why the dog growled and take measures to teach it there is no need to do so?


Okay..to answer this would be to repeat what Ive said probably 100 times now. Ive accepted that most PF members are fine with their dogs growling at humans for a reason.....whether the owner can find that reason is another matter. I clearly have different expectations of my family pets and as yet....they havent disappointed me......so all is well


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

When we first got Roxy she started to snap at people when we were out. It was such a worry as there was no growl beforehand, had she done this then I would have realised her anxiety (as much of her problems at the beginning were related to fear) but her body language was so subtle that at first I missed the signs. 

Maybe she had been reprimanded in the past for growling, I have no idea but this was a massive worry at first & did concern the behaviourst. Luckily she does growl now & I am pleased she does as it is a more obvious sign which isn't missed.

Reginald - I'm not saying you should be happy of Coopers behaviour but at least he is making sure you are aware of his 'unhappiness' at situations although again it's just something else that you have to deal with. Maybe he is resource guarding you, Roxy used to do this all the time with absolutley everything; me, my OH, guests, sofa, bed, etc but hers was never directed at a [erson but poor old Toby my other dog. Over time we were able to manage this & it was all due to her settling in to a new home so a different situation to Cooper.

I really hope you can find a way to overcome his problems & I do agree with Sled Dog in that his pain may still be an issue. Are you still seeing the behaviourist?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

.....................................


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## DogWalker1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

chichi said:


> Most said they wouldnt correct....therefore dog thinks behaviour is fine. For me its far from fine.
> 
> I cant keep saying that its GREAT if thats what YOU are happy with in YOUR home. If you are not happy but just would allow it without the dog getting that you are not happy...*then the behaviour COULD escalate*. Thats not something I would take a chance on.
> 
> I wont EVER agree that a dog is okay to growl at humans.....for ME it is not acceptable


I'm glad you can appreciate it's just people expressing different opinions and so we're all still friends (at least I think that's what you're saying ). But there may be others viewing this thread who aren't sure how to interpret or respond to a growl and so it's also good that they get to hear all sides.

I would like to discuss the argument that stopping the aggression at the growling stage prevents things from escalating. I'm not a dog behaviourist but it seems odd to me that a dog who is not corrected for growling will then decide it must be ok to bite someone too. That is like saying a dog who is allowed to bark at strangers coming to the door will think it's also ok to bite them once you open the door. I just don't believe their minds work that way. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I can understand the idea that if the dog is using growling in a situation where it shouldn't be necessary (i.e., because it is resource guarding or whatever), then there is a problem. But surely the solution is to teach them they don't need to feel threatened rather than to teach them not to give a warning when they do feel threatened?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

redginald said:


> For what its worth i only joined pf for advice on my Labradors Lymphoma, Im a textbook numpty dog owner, and had done no research into dog training, my dog was family, he ate the same crap as me, and if he would nip as a pup he got a tap on the nose. I ended up with a loopy lab, mischievous, but absolutely bulletproof in regards to aggression it wasn't in him.
> I've never trusted a dog so much, so far in fact i would be surprised to find a dog anywhere as trust worthy as him with kids. He wasn't trained with any particular methods just common sense.
> 
> I've since learned alot on here and although bulletproof my lab wasn't obedient . I've learned hitting his nose etc is wrong. With Coop I've tried to do it by the book, i don't think tapping a dog on the nose is cruel, but can't see the point in it if it doesn't work. I've never done anything like this with cooper, everything been reward based, never punished. I've had my doubts but i honestly don't think what i used to do either redder would work with Coop either. Its apparent to me its not the training with Coop Thats failing, its prob a bit of everything . His hips, my inexperience and circumstances, and his breed traits. He's a very different dog to my lab, and Thats not been through his experience with me, if my lab stole a sock, and knew i wanted it he would leg it, if i caught him he would drop it. Cooper will not, that may sound like a nothing comment to some, but for me sums up the difference between two VERY different temperament dogs


As you have said the lab and a DDB are very different breeds. Interesting that the "pink and fluffy" methods don't work on the dog with the stronger, more dominant personality. But yet your old methods produced a well balanced dog.

Maybe you are too soft and he knows that. I don't understand this challenging behaviour from a dog so young.

Personally I would rehome him. (as a dedicated rescue person I don't say this often)

You have worked very hard and I doubt if his hips are helping at all. But every day which goes past ingrains the bad behaviour even more


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> What happens if you ask him to do something incompatible with jumping up instead? Sit or down are my choice but not sure how suitable they'd be for a dog with hip problems  *Fetch a toy works for Spen as well though, he can't be trying to dance on my head while he's looking for a toy*.


That is our strategy..."where's your....?" or "Find me a toy" works a treat!


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## blitzens mum (Jul 15, 2012)

i think its natural for us human beings to say 'no' to a dog in a sharp tone when he has done something wrong


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## toryb (Jul 11, 2011)

I really applaud your dedication and patience with Cooper  I have small children and a bouncy lurcher pup and it can be hard at times so I have no doubt that managing cooper and his issues along with children must be a really tough call  He is a lucky pup to be getting so much patience and understanding...there are alot of people out there who would have given up by now! xxx


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> As you have said the lab and a DDB are very different breeds. Interesting that the "pink and fluffy" methods don't work on the dog with the stronger, more dominant personality. But yet your old methods produced a well balanced dog.
> 
> Maybe you are too soft and he knows that. I don't understand this challenging behaviour from a dog so young.
> 
> ...


I agree, different dogs need different approach and there isn't always a one size fits all for breeds and each dog within it.

My last rough billy was the most laid back dog ever with the most placid temperament, you could do anything to that dog, it was as though he didn't have teeth from day one.

Alfie needs guiding more, he is more energetic and outgoing so pushes his luck sometimes with cheekiness so he needs a different approach to a more relaxed style with billy.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> As you have said the lab and a DDB are very different breeds. Interesting that the "pink and fluffy" methods don't work on the dog with the stronger, more dominant personality. But yet your old methods produced a well balanced dog.
> 
> Maybe you are too soft and he knows that. I don't understand this challenging behaviour from a dog so young.
> 
> ...


Positive reinforcement training works universally across species. The whole concept of clicker training is derived from training dolphins and whales. The only difference is with dogs is that a whistle has been substituted for a clicker and fish for a treat. The zoo in Atlanta used these techniques to get a gorilla to put his arm in a metal sleeve to have his blood pressure taken Gorilla gets his blood pressure taken, thanks to positive reinforcement training! | Karen Pryor Clickertraining


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I am no behavioural expert so I have no advice for you but I just wanted to say that I hope you can achieve a happy outcome for both your family and Cooper. 

I remember your posts when your lab Redd sadly passed and it must be especially hard adjusting to the change when your last dog was so good with children.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

i totally agree with this having 7 dogs six of which are ddbs they are a whole different ball game from a lab or springer its like chalk and cheese

with ddbs they were originally bred for fighting - guarding ect and they are a dominent breed most of the time, while they can be very soft and cuddly their initial natural inbred trait is that of a protector /guard dog they are naturally very territorial and if your not aware of this it can be seen as they are aggressive dogs Also along with the traditional breed traits the dogs have there own personalities as well

with our 6 we have 3 males ddbs and the youngest 1 who is 10months is the most dominant of the lot of the boys and actually thinking about is probably a lot like Cooper in some ways He has been easy to train but he is always the one out of 7 dogs that will push it just a little bit more and the one that is always more trouble or more of a handful

He will go and hunt my socks and destroy them but if you tell him to drop he will do that with no probs he is great with other dogs male and female but hates the other two male dogs Shabba & Hooker ( we keep all three separate after a few big vet bills for all of them from fighting )

With ddbs you do have to be in charge - its not about being dominant over the dog or being an alpha male ect but being soft and fluffy with a ddb is just asking for trouble in the long run

i don't mean by being nasty or hitting the dog or anything like that but just not showing them that you are scared of them or showing any sort of weakness - they are big bullies at heart and you show the slightest bit of retreat and they are on a roll

most dogs i find are bullies my mums springer spaniel rule the bloody house growling and snapping at anyone who even dare to sit on the sofa where she is 24/7 but with ddbs cos they are so big and powerfull breed its different from being bullied by a springer spaniel

i would love to have Cooper just for a week or so just to see if its him or you or even come and visit him and see him way We are only down the rd from you and at least you would know if Cooper is the devil in disguise which i doubt very much or if he he just to much of handful for you

You've put so much of an investment into him it would be heartbreaking to see you re home him after all your hard work and investment into him



emmaviolet said:


> I agree, different dogs need different approach and there isn't always a one size fits all for breeds and each dog within it.
> 
> My last rough billy was the most laid back dog ever with the most placid temperament, you could do anything to that dog, it was as though he didn't have teeth from day one.
> 
> Alfie needs guiding more, he is more energetic and outgoing so pushes his luck sometimes with cheekiness so he needs a different approach to a more relaxed style with billy.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> What a load of rubbish. Positive reinforcement training works universally across species. The whole concept of clicker training is derived from training dolphins and whales. The only difference is with dogs is that a whistle has been substituted for a clicker and fish for a treat. The zoo in Atlanta used these techniques to get a gorilla to put his arm in a metal sleeve to have his blood pressure taken Gorilla gets his blood pressure taken, thanks to positive reinforcement training! | Karen Pryor Clickertraining


They never had clicker training years ago and yet people coped with their dogs 

Clicker training has it's place but a dog who is disrespectful and growling at non threatening situations is not about training but about dominance IMO. (and no I don't think the dog wants to take over the world)


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

charlearose said:


> i totally agree with this having 7 dogs six of which are ddbs they are a whole different ball game from a lab or springer its like chalk and cheese
> 
> with ddbs they were originally bred for fighting - guarding ect and they are a dominent breed most of the time, while they can be very soft and cuddly their initial natural inbred trait is that of a protector /guard dog they are naturally very territorial and if your not aware of this it can be seen as they are aggressive dogs Also along with the traditional breed traits the dogs have there own personalities as well
> 
> ...


Good post :thumbup:

Many stubborn, dominant, strong breeds need a firm hand (I do not mean physically) but a no nonsense approach.

Any reluctance/nerves on your part can detrimentally affect your relationship with your dog.

In our rescue we would not rehome a large breed to anyone who did not have large breed experience due to the possibility of the person misinterpreting the dogs behaviour or feeling "nervous"


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

blitzens mum said:


> i think its natural for us human beings to say 'no' to a dog in a sharp tone when he has done something wrong


And if said dog views its 'warning' as wrong, next time he may not bother with it when something is wrong, and go straight to his next option....

The bottom line is you either want to teach your dog that its ok to communicate with you when he's uncomfortable, or you want to teach him it isn't. And you either wish to find out the cause of his discomfort, or you just wish to stop the communications.
With my dobe, I want him to talk to me. And I want him to trust me that when he does so, I won't tell him off, but I'll listen and help. How can a dog trust its owner when his attempts to communicate with them are met with negativity?

No, I would never 'fuss' or mollycoddle a growling dog. I would find the reason and address the cause.

Thats all I can say. So many of us are just repeating ourselves now.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

goodvic2 said:


> They never had clicker training years ago and yet people coped with their dogs
> 
> Clicker training has it's place but a dog who is disrespectful and growling at non threatening situations is not about training but about dominance IMO. (and no I don't think the dog wants to take over the world)


And they also used to think the earth was flat, drilling a hole in someones head would cure a headache and having your blood sucked out by leeches would cure most ailments. Dominance theory was popularised by David Mech over fifty years ago based on observations of a random collection of wild wolves put into captivity. After subsequent years of studying wild wolves, he came to the conclusion that he was completely wrong. You can watch him talking about it on YouTube, I can't copy the link on my phone.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

The reason that i have taken an interest in Cooper threads on here because we have 6 ddbs and a bullmastiff and we were going to buy one of the same puppies from Coopers breeder so it could have been us with Cooper or a similar dog from the same litter

4 of our dogs were rehomed from the newspapers adverts ect where people bought them and then didn't train them properly 
one dog we got had never ever been on lead, when we got him at 11months old but within 2-3 weeks we had him walking almost perfectly 
Same for a girl that we bought recently again 1 year old never been on lead never been out anywhere in shops /bars restaurants scared of her own shadow

First week we had her we were taking her out in town to shops bars restaurants now she is absolutely a dream dog and just sits and chills out when we take here out

we love our dogs 100percent, I'm the soppy one and the one that they see as a bit of a pushover i.e. if I'm sat on the sofa Shabba won't think twice about jumping up to sit on it with me but if my dh is sat on the sofa Shabba just sits there with his head on dh lap He wouldn't dream of jumping up on the sofa unless dh allows him to ( which he dose )

but in order for them to have the best possible life, we have to be firm and consistent with them especially as we have so many of them otherwise it a recipe for trouble and unhappy pack of dogs and owners

People often think that dominance over a dog mean cruelty and pain but its dosnt its about being firm and having rules and boundaries its important for all dogs but more so i think in big breeds like ddbs

its far more cruel to let a dog do what its wants how it wants and when it wants ( not that this has been happening to Cooper )

What happens when the dog that can do what it likes and has no boundaries gets rehomed (_ it will take a lot longer because it a problem dog as such )_ 
I'm pretty sure that if anyone got Hooker and Hussey the two dogs that had never been on the lead when we got it would have been a potential nightmare waiting to start. Its only because we are confident with ddbs as a breed and we know that we can ensure that they are well trained that we didn't have a problem with them in training them

We have always made sure that our dogs know all the rules and commands that we require from them because should we ever have to rehome them at least whoever got them get a good dog with no problems

Many stubborn, dominant, strong breeds need a firm hand (I do not mean physically) but a no nonsense approach.

Any reluctance/nerves on your part can detrimentally affect your relationship with your dog.

In our rescue we would not rehome a large breed to anyone who did not have large breed experience due to the possibility of the person misinterpreting the dogs behaviour or feeling "nervous"[/QUOTE]


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> And they also used to think the earth was flat, drilling a hole in someones head would cure a headache and having your blood sucked out by leeches would cure most ailments. Dominance theory was popularised by David Mech over fifty years ago based on observations of a random collection of wild wolves put into captivity. After subsequent years of studying wild wolves, he came to the conclusion that he was completely wrong. You can watch him talking about it on YouTube, I can't copy the link on my phone.


Why does the word dominance always have to come to this kind of reply 

Certain breeds are more dominant than other more laid back breeds. Many dogs will take the p**s if the owner doesn't step up to the plate.

I really don't see why common sense is so lacking.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

charlearose said:


> Ours do that - we have 6 ddbs and a bullmastiff
> 
> Shabba and hooker the big boys always bark and growl at me and my son
> ( never my husband though :confused1: they know who feed em and which sid there bread is buttered on ) The girls that we have never do though
> ...


Your dogs' behaviour and growling at family members, isn't typical for a DDB.


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Certain breeds are more dominant than other more laid back breeds. Many dogs will take the p**s if the owner doesn't step up to the plate.


I have a 'dominant' breed. I don't use outdated 'pack' mentality methods on him, nor do I believe in dominance theory. Positive all the way, so far, so good.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

Couldn't agree more - Dominance dosnt have to mean cruelty We my husband and i are not dominant over our dogs and our dogs are all well behaved 95 percent of the time but with 7 dogs we can't be soft and let them rule the house

all our dogs are fairly dominant both to each other and to certain people and situations -but i believe it to be a trait of the breed and something that we accepted when we bought them

Some or more dominant than others and to try and get rid of the dominance in the dog is destroying the spirit of the dog/ddb - its natural for them to be a fairly dominant breed



goodvic2 said:


> Why does the word dominance always have to come to this kind of reply
> 
> Certain breeds are more dominant than other more laid back breeds. Many dogs will take the p**s if the owner doesn't step up to the plate.
> 
> I really don't see why common sense is so lacking.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

Its very typical in our house of our boys, but we don't have a problem with it - they do it and then they stop, as soon as they see that its my son and that he isn't scared of them

if they didn't stop, and took it further than just growling, then it would be a problem which we would have to deal with but they don't , so there isn't a problem for us

i think with ours its mainly because my son is not at home that much (being a typical teenager )so they see him as a bit of a stranger - he often comes in late and with weird clothes and hats on and for whatever reason the two big males don't like that
the barking /growling last for about 5-10 second which dosnt seem a lot but it sounds a lot



Snoringbear said:


> Your dogs' behaviour and growling at family members, isn't typical for a DDB.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm sure to some I must come across as part of the " pink and fluffy" brigade. I ask positive methods not be confused with being permissive. That force free does not mean free for all. 

Just because I do not use confrontational methods does not make me reluctanct or nervous. I simply prefer to work with my dog in a mutually beneficial manner.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

charlearose said:


> Its very typical in our house of our boys, but we don't have a problem with it - they do it and then they stop,
> 
> if they didn't stop, and took it further than just growling then it would be a problem which we would have to deal with but they don't , so there isn't a problem


Sorry, I meant as a breed trait, not yours personally. I've not seen this in any of mine other than one who had a brain tumour. I've not had DDB growling at me when I've gone to friends houses and kennels here and abroad either.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

charlearose said:


> Its very typical in our house of our boys, but we don't have a problem with it - they do it and then they stop, as soon as they see that its my son and that he isn't scared of them
> 
> if they didn't stop, and took it further than just growling, then it would be a problem which we would have to deal with but they don't , so there isn't a problem for us
> 
> ...


Do your dogs bark when strangers come into your home....or is it just your Son they have a problem with?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I'm sure to some I must come across as part of the " pink and fluffy" brigade. I ask positive methods not be confused with being permissive. That force free does not mean free for all.
> 
> Just because I do not use confrontational methods does not make me reluctanct or nervous. I simply prefer to work with my dog in a mutually beneficial manner.


Moonviolet, that is a great statement. Well said.

My dog is a very strong minded soul, as am i. But we both respond very well to fair, positive interactions rather than confrontation. 

I assure you I am neither pink, nor fluffy too

Nicely put by you!

ETA: sorry that is my only tuppence worth don't know enough about situations to comment on the OPs situation but wish you well for the future


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sorry not been replying, Im not being an arse, Im on my phone and it makes quoting a bit tricky, and messages keep coming and coming, can everyone stop growling at each other 

The behaviorist is on leave until Thursday. Initially shes given us exercises to do with him. Touch targets, he does well. Fetch (were getting there, he'll pick it up and drop before asked) taught hide on walks (he does this when asked quite Alot) taught to correct him jumping with a house line, click and treat for eye contact (forgot about this one) and methods for getting stolen things from him.

We just got in, he kept jumping up and biting the gfs jumper (whoever has been out all day gets "friendly" mauled when they get back in) i just brought him into the living room, once on the floor i stroked him but before long he was chewing my hand, when i said no he started bouncing around so he's doing time now.....again. He's led GROWLING at us all under the gate now, if i open it he'll be ok for a minute then start trying to playfight again. In regards to his play biting, we always time him out nothing more, but he's still the same it didn't work with him.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Glad its not just my phone thats a pain with quoting....etc.

Sorry....I was growling a bit earlier but took a leaf out of my dogs book and went to my bed

I have no way of helping.....I would be totally out of my depth with Cooper but was just wondering if your GF is afraid of Cooper when he jumps up. I have been cornered by a DDB once and I was extremely afraid....he was playing with me Im sure because he sensed my fear....when his owner came over he turned into a little lamb.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

chichi said:


> Glad its not just my phone thats a pain with quoting....etc.
> 
> Sorry....I was growling a bit earlier but took a leaf out of my dogs book and went to my bed
> 
> I have no way of helping.....I would be totally out of my depth with Cooper but was just wondering if your GF is afraid of Cooper when he jumps up. I have been cornered by a DDB once and I was extremely afraid....he was playing with me Im sure because he sensed my fear....when his owner came over he turned into a little lamb.


My phone makes hard work of this forum, an app would be good!

Wouldn't say any of us are afraid of him, but when he's boisterous its easier said than done "just ignore him" I've got a four inch scratch on my chest just now from him trying to play. When settled he's fussed on the floor , when you stop he blocks where you're going and bites and scratches.

His boisterous play has got worse since the painkillers, weve both noticed that


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

moonviolet said:


> I'm sure to some I must come across as part of the " pink and fluffy" brigade. I ask positive methods not be confused with being permissive. That force free does not mean free for all.
> 
> Just because I do not use confrontational methods does not make me reluctanct or nervous. I simply prefer to work with my dog in a mutually beneficial manner.


Exactly, positive is not permissive. I discipline my dog when I feel it's necessary. He's expected to be well behaved and to follow the rules and there are consequences when he doesn't. I'm certainly not nervous and I'm not sure what there is to be reluctant about, I just prefer to work with my dog using positive methods.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

moonviolet said:


> I'm sure to some I must come across as part of the " pink and fluffy" brigade. I ask positive methods not be confused with being permissive. That force free does not mean free for all.
> 
> Just because I do not use confrontational methods does not make me reluctanct or nervous. I simply prefer to work with my dog in a mutually beneficial manner.


Like, like, like 1000x like.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I've got my gf to read through this, she wanted me to add he's not shown threatening behavior to the kids. There was one situation where he had a new bone in the hallway, my daughter passed between him and the bone and he made a row and ran and picked up his bone. If anything he's run between me and the kids and barked at me when telling them off. Im not saying this behavior is right, but if picking up on his negatives its important we don't make any up.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

redginald said:


> My phone makes hard work of this forum, an app would be good!
> 
> Wouldn't say any of us are afraid of him, but when he's boisterous its easier said than done "just ignore him" I've got a four inch scratch on my chest just now from him trying to play. When settled he's fussed on the floor , when you stop he blocks where you're going and bites and scratches.
> 
> His boisterous play has got worse since the painkillers, weve both noticed that


Ditto on the app lo PF on an android is bloomin chore 

Tht has to be good news in an ironic way re the painkilkers and boisterous behaviour. Ie it shows the pain is effecting him in his daily life


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

On the advice of our behaviourist I have today made some fleece tug type toys. Strips of fleece knotted at the end and plaited then knotted at the other end and a knot in the middle. Although our dog is only 13 kg he too likes to leap and snatch/bite at clothing and what lies beneath when excited especially on our return. Today when this happened we have offered hime the fleece tug toy and he has trotted about happily quietlygreeting us with it in his mouth. Just wondered if Cooper has a favourite chew toy or similar you could offer to keep his mouth busy while he settles or when this behaviour occurs.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

How long had coop been left? What exercise mental/physical has he had today. what routine do you have in place for when you get home?

For instance my mum's retrievers always have quick game of fetch. my friend's collie has a quick game of tug. 

To me ( not seeing etc etc) Being exhuberant on your return home seems like normal dog behaviour, he just doesn't realise his display of happiness hurts you. It's down to you to give him a better way to express this.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

My gfs been at work today, me and the kids have been in, and walked him. he's had a few kings with cream cheese smeared in, but he's not had alot of attention today admittedly. 

Whatever toys we buy him, he never seems to get attached to any, teddies, small Kong, xl Kong, Kong wubba, Kong wobbler, dog dummy, rope, bones, stag bar, he prefers limbs. 

We are trying to teach fetch, we can't get him to hold item for longer than a second though, he either has something and WON'T give it back unless high reward and distraction used, or that same item can be used for fetch and he won't hold it at all, or will mouth it and drop, i never get the chance to ASK drop to click it. 

Just been using clicker to use generally, been stroking him and click and treating, had a calm dog for 10 mins then!!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Just a thought came to me, have you tried a DAP or zylkene or anything to take the edge off his behaviour?

They maybe might help him to be a bit calmer or less snappy.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

moonviolet said:


> I'm sure to some I must come across as part of the " pink and fluffy" brigade. I ask positive methods not be confused with being permissive. That force free does not mean free for all.
> 
> Just because I do not use confrontational methods does not make me reluctanct or nervous. I simply prefer to work with my dog in a mutually beneficial manner.


Errrm excuse me but I am pink and fluffy too but just tinge a little bit purple at certain things

Confrontation and correction are different things to me. Confrontation conjurs up challenging the dog in my mind...where correction is just letting the dog know clearly that you are not happy. I think maybe some think of correction as shouting or intimidating but that isnt correction in my mind.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

see we have seen the exact opposite in ours and friends ddb generally 
its dosnt last just a few seconds and to us its not threating or scary as such - 
its more of a * I'm here don't miss me kind of thing *

also my son is typical in that he is in /out and all about and dosnt spend a lot of time with the dogs so they are not that used to him he is kind of a stranger to them

Also Shabba lives inside the house so he is quite territorial of his space not in a bad way as he will do as he is told with no probs if told to move he dose with not a single murmur

a lot of the time i think its more a case of him showing off as he never ever barks or growls at my husband who is the main walker and feeder of the dogs and my son say that when he come in the house and its just him and the dog e he dose bugger all just comes down the stair see its him and then goes back upstairs to sleep

also what i find interesting is that both Shabba and Hooker we got from people who no longer wanted them any more Hooker wasnt properly socialised either in terms of being on the lead /walking and Shabba is incredibly clingy towards my husband (if he was a woman i would be thinking affair )

So i do wonder if there previous treatment has something to do with it as all our other dogs which we have had from pups don't do this in the slightest



Snoringbear said:


> Sorry, I meant as a breed trait, not yours personally. I've not seen this in any of mine other than one who had a brain tumour. I've not had DDB growling at me when I've gone to friends houses and kennels here and abroad either.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> My phone makes hard work of this forum, an app would be good!
> 
> Wouldn't say any of us are afraid of him, but when he's boisterous its easier said than done "just ignore him" I've got a four inch scratch on my chest just now from him trying to play. When settled he's fussed on the floor , when you stop he blocks where you're going and bites and scratches.
> 
> His boisterous play has got worse since the painkillers, weve both noticed that


It was Previcox painkillers you said he was on wasnt it?

Think you might be interested in this its listed in the side effects

Change in behavior (such as decreased or increased activity level, incoordination, seizure, or aggression).

Think it might be best to speak to the vet about another anti inflamm/painkiller.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Animal...edAnimalDrugProducts/DrugLabels/UCM050402.pdf


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

They will bark at strangers i.e. my stepson came in tonight and shabba who lives indoors barked at him ( but this is the first time stepson has been down for a while ) 
with my son he is in /out and dosnt really interact with the dogs dosnt walk them ect as he is at college still

its not aggressive as such - if you didn't know the dogs you would think it is but its because of the noise he will make his bark is loud

also my son is a big kid at 18 6ft 3 and built like a bloody tank so he might seem intimidating to Shabba but shabba will come up to him and let him smooth him so he is not scared of him and likewise

but as i put on the other post my son say that when he come in and no one is in the house shabba dose bugger all so i wonder if he is showing off to my husband in some sort of perverse way he is very clingy toward my husband follow him around like a fly 
Shabba dosnt have a problem with my son though, he sleeps in his room on the floor at night and when my son goes out he is straight on his bed and if my son tells him off he get off with no probs no growls ect



chichi said:


> Do your dogs bark when strangers come into your home....or is it just your Son they have a problem with?


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## Shadowrat (Jan 30, 2011)

chichi said:


> I think maybe some think of correction as shouting or intimidating but that isnt correction in my mind.


I always think of correction as showing the dog an alternative behaviour he could do, ie, correcting an undesirable behaviour by showing a preferable alternative. Like when you correct a child on a spelling mistake, you say 'thats not right, this is, and heres why'; you don't just yell 'NO! WRONG!'. So no, it absolutely doesn't have to mean being intimidating or abusive.
But in order to correct a behaviour, you have to know why the dog is doing it. And if one leaps right to a 'correction' without figuring out the reason the dog is growling, how do they know what they're correcting and what alternative behaviour to show the dog?
I also don't think growling is a 'mistake', its a communication. Until the day dogs can verbalise to us in english 'this is making me uncomfortable, please back off' then growling is the way they know to communicate this, especially if the event thats making them do this is not recognised and addressed.

I guess its like humans giving eye contact/facial expressions to communicate to other people they're not comfortable. Other humans generally know what your face is saying, whether its 'hey! great to see you!' or 'don't bother me'. 
A dog growling is no more or less aggressive or acceptable than any of the communications WE use for one another. 
Like people with fears/concerns about certain situations, the way forward is to show them why it is not necessary to behave that way, and show an alternative rather than just tell them not to express their concerns at all.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

redginald said:


> My phone makes hard work of this forum, an app would be good!
> 
> Wouldn't say any of us are afraid of him, but when he's boisterous its easier said than done "just ignore him" I've got a four inch scratch on my chest just now from him trying to play. When settled he's fussed on the floor , when you stop he blocks where you're going and bites and scratches.
> 
> His boisterous play has got worse since the painkillers, weve both noticed that


It must be so difficult because he seems to just have so much energy and whereas mine can run around like crazy through the house....Cooper would probably knock the house down almost. Suppose its finding a way to release that energy by stimulation when indoors. Goodness knows how. I have a rubber treat cube where the chis have to mess for ages to get the treat (its like a cube type maze)...would something like that interest him....if they do a larger version?

As for meds...you should speak to the Vet. There could be another drug slightly different but as effective....minus whatever ingredient is causing the hyperactivity. My Daughter has Asthma and one of her inhalers used to literally make her bounce off the walls. Even the school noticed. Spoke to her Consultant who provided same drug but it wasnt as fast acting but still controlled the Asthma. She was back to her old self.

I also read your post about how good Cooper is with the kids. It seems he knows not to go there with unwanted behaviours....yet sees you and your GF as playmates almost. So complex!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

charlearose said:


> They will bark at strangers i.e. my stepson came in tonight and shabba who lives indoors barked at him ( but this is the first time stepson has been down for a while )
> with my son he is in /out and dosnt really interact with the dogs dosnt walk them ect as he is at college still
> 
> its not aggressive as such - if you didn't know the dogs you would think it is but its because of the noise he will make his bark is loud
> ...


That is really strange. Are DDBs a really complex breed? Going by this thread they are but Ive always thought of them as being big overgrown soppy pups. Maybe the ones Ive come across have just been boring lol Cooper seems hyper intelligent...perhaps TOO intelligent...almost like hes slightly manipulative (just my perception of some of his antics).


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

chichi said:


> Errrm excuse me but I am pink and fluffy too but just tinge a little bit purple at certain things
> 
> Confrontation and correction are different things to me. Confrontation conjurs up challenging the dog in my mind...where correction is just letting the dog know clearly that you are not happy. I think maybe some think of correction as shouting or intimidating but that isnt correction in my mind.


" correcting" a growl seems to me and everything i have read,observed and experienced is simply telling a dog to shut up. The growl is a communication, it is simply a symptom. Stopping the growl does not change the root cause of the growl or change the dogs state of mind. It's like telling their opinion isn't valid.

For instance I witnessed a curled lip and half moon eyes when walked close by Tink after giving her a new treat during her adolescent phase. Clearly she found this was new and rare and must be protected. I walked away left her with her new treat. I needed her to know I wasnt' going to take it. I was no threat.... Over the next few days I dropped extra treats as I walked by at a non threatening distance, offered swaps etc etc. I spotted it before it got to a growl and addressed the root cause, had she growled i would have handled it exactly the same way.

It seems to me that working with our dogs makes for a more harmonious relationship.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2012)

chichi said:


> You have nearly all said you wouldnt correct even though not happy with the growling but look for the reason.....how would the dog understand anything from your reaction. So you check the dog over...cant find anything wrong. The moment has passed.....next time dogs p!ssed off....growls at human again....possibility of habit forming?


No, thats not how it works. Correcting a growl is like closing the barn door after the horses have already gotten out. You work on the problem BEFORE it gets to the point of the growl and eventually the growl never happens. All of my dogs have a look that they give me when they want to be rescued from something. If I respond to that look either by telling them, you have to put up with this a bit longer (at the vets) or by removing the annoying puppy or rude dog, then the growl never happens. Problem solved. Its all about communication 



goodvic2 said:


> Why does the word dominance always have to come to this kind of reply
> 
> Certain breeds are more dominant than other more laid back breeds. Many dogs will take the p**s if the owner doesn't step up to the plate.
> 
> I really don't see why common sense is so lacking.


Okay, I think I see what youre saying. Yes, breed tendencies ARE very different, and some breeds like molossers such as DDB were deliberately bred to not back down from a threat, to have strong guarding instincts, and to meet a challenge head on. A dog like a lab has none of those tendencies.

That said though, a molosser doesnt need a heavy hand any more than a poodle does. In fact, as I said to Redginald on one of the first posts I replied to him, when a molosser decides he doesnt want to be manhandled, he *really* decides hes done being manhandled, and you end up with a dog who uses his brawn because he has figured out how well it works for him. 
We end up with a lot of these dogs in rescue, and we certainly do not use more brawn to fix those behaviors. 
But yes, you do have to step up to the plate as a leader. You show yourself to the dog to be trustworthy and knowledgeable and worth following.
I love this article about what leadership means and with these dogs, that is very much what you need.
Leadership versus Dominance | Dog Star Daily


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread yet, OP, but having read your initial post, and having a very reactive dog myself, these are some thoughts:

Cooper sounds a bit like Dexter, I think. Dexter will growl and and also lunge and bark if something seems ***strange*** to him. It can be something that appears UTTERLY unthreatening to us humans: i.e. recently he got distressed because a bloke in the park was bending over doing an exercise and from where we stood, he looked 'strange' to Dex.

Could it be that Cooper was startled/disconcerted if your girlfriend either moved quickly or approached from an angle that felt 'strange' to Cooper...?

Also - is Cooper usually OK with more than one person showing affection? I just ask because it took a long, long time for Dex to be OK with this.

The behaviourist should be able to advise you. I know how stressful it can be, when you have a dog who is 'reactive' (for want of a better word)) so I do empathise with you


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> It was Previcox painkillers you said he was on wasnt it?
> 
> Think you might be interested in this its listed in the side effects
> 
> ...


good spot! Will have to give the vet a call, needs elimnating at least!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I haven't read the whole thread yet, OP, but having read your initial post, and having a very reactive dog myself, these are some thoughts:
> 
> Cooper sounds a bit like Dexter, I think. Dexter will growl and and also lunge and bark if something seems ***strange*** to him. It can be something that appears UTTERLY unthreatening to us humans: i.e. recently he got distressed because a bloke in the park was bending over doing an exercise and from where we stood, he looked 'strange' to Dex.
> 
> ...


I don't think she startled him to be honest, i don't know if he felt a bit crowded, or cornered.

Coop is suspicious of everyone, turbans, umbrellas freak him out a bit, i posted a while back he freaked out over a road works triangle :confused1:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

redginald said:


> His boisterous play has got worse since the painkillers, weve both noticed that


Well that's a good thing as far as his pain level goes as it shows they're working well. I am glad he doesn't show unwanted behaviour towards your children, that shows he does have some restraint over who he growls at and who he doesn't. I know there are breeds who, as my trainer would say, are 'manipulative', (she doesn't like dominant, lol) and I have three of them too but firmness and fairness seem to work well with these guys, although Flynn gets different treatment and look what he's like when we are out and he see's another dog. Kali wouldn't dream of doing what he does and she wouldn't get away with it either, so there goes the manipulative bit. I suppose, he knows I'm a wuss and acts accordingly. My son has always said he wouldn't take any flack from Flynn but then he doesn't love him like I do!

Definitely if you ever feel a little intimidated, even when out and people want to say hi to Coops, he will know and take the helm if he thinks you can't. That's exactly what the behaviourist said about Flynn, if he thinks I can't step up to the mark he'll do it for me - blinking nuisance!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

redginald said:


> I don't think she startled him to be honest, i don't know if he felt a bit crowded, or cornered.
> 
> Coop is suspicious of everyone, *turbans, umbrellas freak him out a bit, i posted a while back he freaked out over a road works triangle* :confused1:



He sounds like Dex - nervous, and wary.

Dex also has a problem with his hips, and we too are going to a specialist. I know you're hoping to get Cooper's hip op done to see if this makes a difference - for what it's worth, I think this is a good idea. Once you can be sure he's not in pain/physical discomfort, *then* you can see the 'real' Cooper - does that make sense.....??


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> He sounds like Dex - nervous, and wary.
> 
> Dex also has a problem with his hips, and we too are going to a specialist. I know you're hoping to get Cooper's hip op done to see if this makes a difference - for what it's worth, I think this is a good idea. Once you can be sure he's not in pain/physical discomfort, *then* you can see the 'real' Cooper - does that make sense.....??


We owe it to him to give him a chance with a painfree hip. The orthapedic vet said himself that he sees 100s of hip dysplasia suffering dogs, yet only has ever referred about 5 for a hip replacement, one being coop so it must be fairly bad!!

If he gets the hip and the behavior escalates, then we will have to rehome him, as i said at least then whoever takes him on won't have to pay for the operation , hopefully making him more rehomable.

Its not easy, my main worry being my family. But its not easy to "kick out" cooper, he's one of the family too, and of course my human family members come 1st, but Im not sure I've misread him and given you all duff info to judge him on, i don't want to make knee jerk reaction. He's suffering a painful condition, I've the opportunity to correct that and re assess.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

He was just curled up like a cat next to me on the sofa snoozing, my stomach rumbled and he stared up at me, he huffed then snoozed again, it rumbled again and he just got up and went to sleep by the door!!  He thinks Im an alien


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Bless him, I saw a lovely DDB and Lab tied up outside Asda today (not something I'd do) while the owner was shopping and he was gorgeous, so was the Lab of course. I thought one day Coop will be all sociable like that and I'm sure he will once he gets over his adolescent nerves and his hip is fixed. Flynn is still nervous of things like air filled plastic bags floating down the road but he is okay now with hats, sun glasses, umbrella's, bin men wheeling those large garden bins, pneumatic drills, window cleaners and to a certain extent children although he doesn't like playgrounds full of them. Basically he's grown up a bit and is accepting lots more things now and with the time out after the ops (which Coops will also endure) which also set him back a bit his fears have become less and less, he can even walk in a high wind now but if he smells a bonfire he won't go out of the front door. Funny how they remember fireworks and how they associate the smell of fire with bonfire night.

Hang in there, not long to go now til his op and Coops will surprise you later I'm sure!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I think you're doing amazing work and your patience is endless, it must be so hard.

I've been reading through the thread as we've been away and I like to see how Cooper is getting on. One think that occurred to me that you may have to make allowances for or speak to a behaviourist is habitual actions. By that I mean reactions to things that Cooper has learned to do to protect himself from being hurt that won't apply when he's had the op. I don't know if that is a real thing or not but my grandmother's dog was never spayed until later in her life and by the time it was done it was far too late to get her used to other dogs. Sadly she never ran off lead with a dog in her life - she had learned that all other dogs were bad. She didn't attack and thankfully my grandmother was able to train her to sit when another dog went past but it was a nightmare taking her to a beach as she simply cowered and shook.

It maybe with Cooper that he might need a while to adjust his little doggy brain to realise that a stroke in a certain place that used to hurt, not longer does so he doesn't need to growl or react.

Bless his heart and yours for being so patient.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

You said it better than me  i think ours especially Shabba who lives indoors has very strong guarding instincts, he is a bully, loveable but a bully 
I have seen him when he is out with us and he will be staring at people almost challenging them to look away from him and when they do its like _ha i have won that round _ Sounds stupid but honest i know my dog

They don't need a heavy hand in the slightest, but they do need to have firm and consistent boundaries mainly because of the size of them, when they do go awol you definatly know about it.

When we take them out say to a pub or a bar we have it so that we are sat in front of them and he is behind us 
because if he is in front of us he sees it as he is guarding us or his spot and will be much more likely to react to stuff like other dogs, but if he is behind us he is like a little pussy cat snoring away and not bothered in the slightest



ouesi;
Okay said:


> Leadership versus Dominance | Dog Star Daily[/URL]


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Next door were having sky fitted and the engineer couldn't get in last attempt as my gf was on her on with kids and a moody Cooper, they asked if he could come today between 12 and 2we said of course, ill take the dog out.

Its been tipping down today, as jumped in the bath there was a knock at the door at 11, i went chucked coop in the car and headed off to the lake in pouring rain. We were walking along a path and an off lead lab approached, i thought "here we go" coop seemed to want to meet him, they went nose to nose, sniffed for a bit, then just walked on 

We both got soaked but was nice to see some positive behavior


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

```

```



MollySmith said:


> I think you're doing amazing work and your patience is endless, it must be so hard.
> 
> I've been reading through the thread as we've been away and I like to see how Cooper is getting on. One think that occurred to me that you may have to make allowances for or speak to a behaviourist is habitual actions. By that I mean reactions to things that Cooper has learned to do to protect himself from being hurt that won't apply when he's had the op. I don't know if that is a real thing or not but my grandmother's dog was never spayed until later in her life and by the time it was done it was far too late to get her used to other dogs. Sadly she never ran off lead with a dog in her life - she had learned that all other dogs were bad. She didn't attack and thankfully my grandmother was able to train her to sit when another dog went past but it was a nightmare taking her to a beach as she simply cowered and shook.
> 
> ...


Thanks, i suspect well come across a few problems, hope we get there in the end!


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

to be honest ours are the same i bought loads of toys kongs balls and stuff the only thing they like to play with is the tug roap and that not very often 
They will never run and fetch something i throw a ball/toy they will go and get it once at thats it 
i do it again they will go up to it and then look at me and look like they want to say _Yeah i did it once I'm not doing it again,do you think I'm stupid _, treats and bribery dosnt work with mine



redginald said:


> My gfs been at work today, me and the kids have been in, and walked him. he's had a few kings with cream cheese smeared in, but he's not had alot of attention today admittedly.
> 
> Whatever toys we buy him, he never seems to get attached to any, teddies, small Kong, xl Kong, Kong wubba, Kong wobbler, dog dummy, rope, bones, stag bar, he prefers limbs.
> 
> ...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Has coop ever had a Holee Molee? Of all the toys, Kongs, Wubba's this is Flynns favourite toy. 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0002DJXGC/ref=redir_mdp_mobile

You can put things in them too. I squeezed a small squeaky duck in Flynns and he spends ages trying to get it out. Make sure he can't though, don't want him swallowing it!


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