# We went to see cavapoo puppies locally. Am i doing something wrong?



## rocco's big bro (Feb 18, 2020)

Hi all,

New to the forum, never owned a dog before, family of 4 from Lytham St. Annes, NW UK.
Looking for a Cavapoo in the next few months.

We went to Longview Kennels & Cattery, a highly rated, five star, local council (Fylde) certified breeder today to view some Cavapoos.
They're KC registered and the place has hundreds of great reviews on Facebook & Google. As well as Pets4Homes.

However, we saw three puppies, the lady brought them in blankets and let us hold them, they're only 5 weeks so very small (we're looking at taking one at around 10 weeks).

We didn't see the mum, didn't think to ask, and she brought us them separately. 
The building is big, and the place is locally known. 

Did we do wrong? Facebook warriors have shot us down for not asking to see the mum and then also not seeing them all at once to see who gravitated towards us.

Any advice appreciated. Many thanks


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

First, i am afraid that finding a good cavapoo breeder is really quite difficult. Cavaliers in particular can suffer from some really nasty congenital conditions (heart problems, syringomyelia) that good breeders try to eliminate through responsible breeding like health tests and selection of parents.

Good breeders do tests on their breeding dogs (proper tests, not just checks to say the dog is capable of siring/carrying a litter) to breed out these conditions.

Unfortunately with the popularity of these crosses there are many puppy farmers who are more interested in exploiting buyers than the long term health of the puppies they are selling; and pet owners who think it would be lovely to have mini versions of their own pets but lack the understanding of responsible breeding. And that brings me to the second point - I don't know this breeder but not seeing the mother is a red flag. Please read this thread, and the linked articles -

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/could-you-spot-a-puppy-farm.517808/

Back to crossbreeds- it used to be believed that crossbreeds had the best of both breeds and health problems were 'bred out' but in fact you could well get a puppy who has inherited health defects from both parents. So crossing, for example, a cavalier with a poodle, you could get a puppy who has heart problems from the cavalier side and hip dysplasia from the poodle side. Both sides could have eye problems these could cause long term pain and distress to the dog and the owner to incur on going expensive vet bills. Marilyn Munro allegedly once suggested to Albert Einstein that if they had babies they would be amazing with her beauty and his brains. Einstein allegedly replied how awful it would be if it were the other way round. You get the picture!

There are some responsible breeders of crossbreeds and that is a good thing. But they are very few and you may have to search extensively to find one.

What is it that draws you to the cavapoo? They are very sweet looking dogs, but if it is the look that appeals (which is perfectly reasonable) a poodle, which is far likelier to be healthy if it comes from a responsible breeder, can be left in a shaggy clip.


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## rocco's big bro (Feb 18, 2020)

Joanne, many thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

I am aware of the health risk with crossbreeds, however, it is not my decision in which breed we are getting. That is my mum, we have many friends with Cavapoos and that is what she has her heart set on, and I don't believe it will change.

Also, that's not the point I was looking for.

Upon looking, we could have seen the mother, it's all over their socials and website - we just didn't ask.

Could you address the other things a little more? let's throw the crossbreeds argument out, as I understand but it can't be changed, unfortunately.

The building is big, and the place is locally known.
There's hundreds of reviews all over, and I personally know owners of dogs from Longview.

Thoughts?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I wonder why she didn't show you the all pups with the mum?
If you do decide to go ahead, I would take the pup at an earlier age of perhaps 8 weeks . Kennels are a sterile environment and your pup needs to experience being in a home etc to set him up for the future.


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## rocco's big bro (Feb 18, 2020)

I wonder too.
I agree with you there, I think 8 weeks is more likely. 

I think we should do another visit, but explain we'd like to see the litter with their mum this time. Agree?


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

KC registered?


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I’d go back and ask to see the mum as well as finding out which health tests they have had. They can’t be KC registered though as they are crossbreeds. I had a look at their Facebook page and I would be suspicious they are overbreeding their dogs. They have pure breed dogs that they are not registering as KC as they are ‘family pets’.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Well if it's big and there are hundreds of reviews then it is a big breeding programme. So that, to me, screams puppy farm.

At the end of the day, its caveat emptor (buyer beware) so I would ask for evidence of the tests listed on this website - particularly Mitral Heart Disease and Syringomyelia.

http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/list-of-dog-breeds/


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

JoanneF said:


> Well if it's big and there are hundreds of reviews then it is a big breeding programme. So that, to me, screams puppy farm.
> 
> At the end of the day, its caveat emptor (buyer beware) so I would ask for evidence of the tests listed on this website - particularly Mitral Heart Disease and Syringomyelia.
> 
> http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/list-of-dog-breeds/


Plus the fact its council registered.. Usually screams puppy farm too
I know the law changed in areas but, still to be licenced with the council doesn't sit well with me.
Shame people see this as well the place must be good because they don't realise its a sign of a puppy farm


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

dannyshiers said:


> However, we saw three puppies, the lady brought them in blankets and let us hold them, they're only 5 weeks so very small (we're looking at taking one at around 10 weeks).
> 
> We didn't see the mum, didn't think to ask, and she brought us them separately.


5 week old Cavalier King Charles x Poodle crossbreeds should not be 'very small' that is not in the genetics of either breed. At 5 weeks of age these pups should be up and running around with their litter mates - and they should be shown in this environment alongside their mum. You do not bring out a pup in a blanket.

Good breeders are proud of where their pups are brought up - and always show the environment. To bring the pups out like this would suggest poor living conditions, possibly different litters and I suspect mum already removed or in such a poor condition that they can let you see her. And you can't be shown mum separately either as you have to see mum interacting with the litter - puppy farmers do this - show pups away from their whelping area and either without mum or will show you a random dog and say this is the mother.

If you are interested in the pups then go back and ask to see where they are living and see them with the mum and littermates. You also need to see them active.

J


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## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I am not against crossbreeds in any way at all (I have a cockapoo) but I wouldn't touch this place with a barge pole, it is 100% a puppy farm.

Their currently available puppies include pomeranians, bichon frises, cavachons, cavapoochons, westipoos, poochons and shih tzu x bichons. That is a lot of litters all at once and there is very little mention of health tests.


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## rocco's big bro (Feb 18, 2020)

Thanks all. We have mutually agreed to leave it.

I messaged the lady to ask to see their mother in their living conditions and this was her reply:

*You can view paperwork but only Joanne can go on to the pups due to there age. They have been vet checked and are all in perfect health. You can meet mum when there older. I have lots of people wanting to view at weekend.*

MASSIVE RED FLAGS. Thanks all! Warning! Steer clear.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Good decision. For future reference, the important thing is not about the puppies being health *checked*, it's about the parents being health *tested*.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

just a point, as youve already made the best choice
but no crossbreed can be kennel club registered
the sire and the dam may be ( though i doubt it in this situation)
but, for your future reference,
the offspring cannot


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

I know you said your Mum really wanted a Cavapoo but there are some really good poodle breeders in the Blackpool area. KC registered, Health Tested parents.


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## karenmc (Feb 3, 2018)

I think you have made a good decision. When we had our visit to choose our Golden Retriever Luna, we saw all the puppies in the litter together with their mum, who bobbed in and out of their area for fuss and cuddles. Choosing a puppy involves lots of information and decision making. You have to trust your instincts as you did and.also read up and seek information from experienced owners. We are so glad that we did when we started to look for a puppy.You'll know when it ids the right puppy for you.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> Plus the fact its council registered.. Usually screams puppy farm too


Why?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

havoc said:


> Why?


Not necessarily a puppy farm but certainly someone that is producing a certain number of litters with a certain number of bitches each year which is unusual for ethical breeders so anyone advertising that they have a council license is unlikely to the very best of breeders.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Blitz said:


> Not necessarily a puppy farm but certainly someone that is producing a certain number of litters


Three - in any year and the breeder will need to register even if it doesn't happen all the time. This can be any breeder who is truly breeding to further the breed rather than just producing puppies to sell from a single or pair of bitches. A KC Assured breeder is acknowledged as breeding to standards above those required.

Multiple breeds, large numbers of dogs kept in kennels, puppies not being in the house so they are used to household life - all these are reasons I wouldn't buy but a breeder being registered does not automatically denote a puppy farm.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> A KC Assured breeder is acknowledged as breeding to standards above those required.


No they are not, as pointed out not so long ago here..Thr breeder was an assured breeder doing no health tests, as they are only suggested. Letting a toy breed puppy go at 8 weeks where the breed club itself suggests 10 weeks minimum. The KC assured breeding scheme isn't as good as it seems, and the same breeder had a website in her own words stating she was a breeding business.
Many people will not be associated with the assured scheme and its been said many times, it's not doing anything for good ethical breeders.


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## rocco's big bro (Feb 18, 2020)

Thanks, everyone.
However, we are struggling to find a reputable and ethical Cavapoo breeder.

We've been recommended Four Winds, but we were quoted extremely low (700) and were suspicious.
We've been recommended Kelly's Kennels but this looks like a farm.
We're on the list at Rosedale Doodles since 2019 but they're not responding.

As we were looking for one to bring home in March, we are struggling to find almost anyone who we can put all trust into.
Any recommendations? 
Also, this sounds awful, but, what is the worst thing about buying from a farm? For example, Kelly's has 26K on facebook but is inevitably a farm. Where to next...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

lullabydream said:


> No they are not, as pointed out not so long ago here


I was talking about the registration process - a KC Assured breeder is likely to be rated higher. I fully agree that there are plenty of bad breeders who are KC Assured and good ones who aren't. All that apart, I still contend that being registered does not mean it's a puppy farm.

_DEFRA has issued a note to local authorities in England in which is made clear any member of the Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme of at least three years' standing should be awarded a five-star breeding licence valid for three years. ABS members who have less than three years membership of the ABS or have had a licence for three years should receive a four-star licence valid for two years. The only exception would be where significant evidence of poor animal welfare standards or non-compliance is found during a local authority inspection_.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

havoc said:


> I was talking about the registration process - a KC Assured breeder is likely to be rated higher. I fully agree that there are plenty of bad breeders who are KC Assured and good ones who aren't. All that apart, I still contend that being registered does not mean it's a puppy farm.
> 
> _DEFRA has issued a note to local authorities in England in which is made clear any member of the Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme of at least three years' standing should be awarded a five-star breeding licence valid for three years. ABS members who have less than three years membership of the ABS or have had a licence for three years should receive a four-star licence valid for two years. The only exception would be where significant evidence of poor animal welfare standards or non-compliance is found during a local authority inspection_.


I did say in my original post about being council registered things had changed, but it's still not usually a great selling point to be breeding from 3 bitches at one time

Being an assured breeder isn't a gold star and it really should have been


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I have linked to this breeder before as they seem to be one of the more responsible and knowledgeable ones breeding this little crossbreed, but things may have changed since then.

https://www.thepoundlanespaniel.com/getting-a-puppy-from-poundlane.html


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

I would add that *_having_* a council number as a result of one year's breeding coincidences and *_actively advertising the fact as a selling point_* are very different things.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

@dannyshiers You are talking about a cross breed not a breed and very very few breeders will be doing it to produce good sound pups. £700 is more than enough to pay for a puppy. They are mongrels, why would you want to even pay that much! I think there is someone round Glasgow who is breeding some rather nice ones and all the ones I have seen from there have been little orange curly haired dogs but it is possible that they have bred lots of different looking ones that I have not recognised. I think they are very expensive though so I would not want one. I was down on a list for a cockapoo about 11 years ago when they were tending to be even more overpriced than now. The breeder I chose did breed more than one breed but she had a reason for doing that and all her pups whether pedigree or cross breed were £400. She said she was happy that covered her costs and gave her a bit of money and she could not see a reason to charge more.

Is there a particular reason you want this crossbreed. You might find it a lot easier to go for either a cavalier or a poodle. Far more ethical breeders of pure breeds and you will know what you are getting.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

dannyshiers said:


> We've been recommended Four Winds, but we were quoted extremely low (700) and were suspicious.


What kind of prices are you being touted if you are suspicious at puppies being sold at £700? As an owner of Cavaliers, I would have though between £700 and £800 would be the top price for a Cavalier x Poodle cross. You can buy each of the parent breeds (fully health tested) for £800 or £900 so a cross of these breeds (which is very unlikely to be fully health tested) should actually be less. If anyone is paying more then they are very foolish.

I will say again - the more you pay the more likely you are dealing with a puppy farm/unscrupulous breeder who is only in it for the money.



> Also, this sounds awful, but, what is the worst thing about buying from a farm? ..


Puppies that are farmed like sheep are often brought up like sheep in pens. Well, actually worse than sheep. There are often 10 bitches side by side with just enough space for the bitch and her litter. There are no spaces for the bitch or puppies to run and explore. Being confined in a small space is why many ex breeding bitches have poor confirmation and difficulty walking in old age. Many bitches from puppy farms - yes, even the 'licensed' ones - are forced to produce litter after litter whilst they are young enough to do so - season after season. They have little time to regain condition between pregnancies. It's why puppy farmers are often unwilling for you to see the bitch with her pups - generally most people would be horrified at the condition of the environment and the condition of the bitch. When farms are raided it is not unusual to find dead puppies.

So the hidden cost is the bitch that produced your puppy. They may have any number of litters. There is no regulation (unlike Kennel Club registered breeding). My friend has just taken on a ex breeding bitch - a West Highland Terrier - she's is four years old and has had *three *litters. Luckily for her her last litter required a C Section and so the breeder offered her around and she was taken on by a rescue. She is thin, scared and completely unsocialised. I don't think she has ever been out on a walk.

Puppy farmers rarely health test. They do not care about temperament they only care about money. Your puppy may survive and be healthy but many do not.

And every puppy bought from a bad breeder simply lines his pocket and encourages him to produce more.

J


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## bunnygeek (Jul 24, 2018)

I would recommend sitting down and having a long discussion with the person/people in your family who are dead-set on this particular crossbreed. Don't put money into a puppy farmed dog just because it's what they've demanded. *Don't let hearts rule heads*, you'll end up spending a small fortune in vet fees and heart ache as a result.

This is one of the rescues in the UK that picks up after larger licensed kennels are "done" with their breeding dogs. Read the description of these poor girls and ask your family if that's what they want to contribute to 
https://www.manytearsrescue.org/display_mtar_dog.php?id=27447
https://www.manytearsrescue.org/display_mtar_dog.php?id=27551

There's a reason you're struggling to find a reputable breeder of this cross and that should throw all the red flags up and should be steering you all in a different direction. Either to a proper KC-registered breeder of purebred health-tested dogs or to a rescue.


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

Not sure where you live but up here in Scotland we got a Cavapoo 5 months ago from a fantastic breeder. They have done almost every type of health test on their stud and mother and we got to meet both beforehand several times both with and without the puppies. Since we brought Henry home last October he has been the best puppy ever and I am so glad we chose a Cavapoo.

It is a hard search but good breeders of Cavapoo's are out there and I don't like when people say they are just the next in line 'fad' or that they aren't worthy (not saying anyone here has said that.) 

I would be happy to pass on the details of my breeder if you want them.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

islas93 said:


> They have done almost every type of health test on their stud and mother


Did you get to see those test results? Doing almost every type of health test doesn't sound right to me (it can happen but not usual as far as I am aware) because there are certain tests for certain breeds, if the breed doesn't suffer from a certain affliction then there isn't really a need to test the dog for it.
It just seems a bit bizarre to waste money on tests that aren't necessary...many people will use the "we have all the health tests done" as a marketing gimmick because they know the general public are getting more savvy with tests these days.

If you saw the results and were able to check them then ignore my post.

I'm not against crossbreeds btw, I have a cross myself


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## margy (Dec 9, 2018)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> What kind of prices are you being touted if you are suspicious at puppies being sold at £700? As an owner of Cavaliers, I would have though between £700 and £800 would be the top price for a Cavalier x Poodle cross. You can buy each of the parent breeds (fully health tested) for £800 or £900 so a cross of these breeds (which is very unlikely to be fully health tested) should actually be less. If anyone is paying more then they are very foolish.
> 
> I will say again - the more you pay the more likely you are dealing with a puppy farm/unscrupulous breeder who is only in it for the money.
> 
> ...


I've just read this and been reduced to tears, poor dogs, I hope this new law, Lucys law, against puppy farms is enforced.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

dannyshiers said:


> Thanks, everyone.
> However, we are struggling to find a reputable and ethical Cavapoo breeder.
> 
> We've been recommended Four Winds, but we were quoted extremely low (700) and were suspicious.
> ...


I've just quickly checked out the breeders you have mentioned.

Four winds - £700 is not cheap at all for a puppy, however their website is full of misinformation, including stating that cavapoos have hybrid vigour and therefore are more healthy than purebreeds - not true

Kelly's Kennels - you are right, this is a puppy farm

Rosedale doodles - this also looks like a puppy farm with several different crosses available.

If I was looking for a poodle cross then I would not go to any of these three places to be honest.


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

StormyThai said:


> Did you get to see those test results? Doing almost every type of health test doesn't sound right to me (it can happen but not usual as far as I am aware) because there are certain tests for certain breeds, if the breed doesn't suffer from a certain affliction then there isn't really a need to test the dog for it.
> It just seems a bit bizarre to waste money on tests that aren't necessary...many people will use the "we have all the health tests done" as a marketing gimmick because they know the general public are getting more savvy with tests these days.
> 
> If you saw the results and were able to check them then ignore my post.
> ...





StormyThai said:


> Did you get to see those test results? Doing almost every type of health test doesn't sound right to me (it can happen but not usual as far as I am aware) because there are certain tests for certain breeds, if the breed doesn't suffer from a certain affliction then there isn't really a need to test the dog for it.
> It just seems a bit bizarre to waste money on tests that aren't necessary...many people will use the "we have all the health tests done" as a marketing gimmick because they know the general public are getting more savvy with tests these days.
> 
> If you saw the results and were able to check them then ignore my post.
> ...


Hey! Apologies I should've been more specific, yeah all the health tests for the respective parent breeds and I have copies of the medical records and test certificates of both parents as proof in Henry's file.

It's so difficult isn't it, a lot of stress and worry goes into whether you're making the right choice, going with the right breeder etc etc.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

That's great, it's really nice to hear about a breeder that is breeding crosses that does the relevant tests


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

islas93 said:


> Hey! Apologies I should've been more specific, yeah all the health tests for the respective parent breeds and I have copies of the medical records and test certificates of both parents as proof in Henry's file.
> 
> It's so difficult isn't it, a lot of stress and worry goes into whether you're making the right choice, going with the right breeder etc etc.


Out of curiosity, do you mind sharing what specific tests the dam and sire had done? You don't have to share results, I was just wondering what tests a good breeder of cavapoos is doing


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> Out of curiosity, do you mind sharing what specific tests the dam and sire had done? You don't have to share results, I was just wondering what tests a good breeder of cavapoos is doing


Sure, so the sire had the following: Mini Poodle
Progressive Retinal Atrophy ( prcd-PRA )
Progressive Retinal Atrophy ( rcd4-PRA ) / LOPRA
Degenerative Myelopathy / Degenerative Radiculomyelopathy ( DM Exon 2 )
Von Willebrand Disease Type 1 ( vWD 1 )
Macrothrombocytopenia ( MTC-D )

Dam: Cavalier King Charles
Episodic Falling
Dry Eye
Curly Coat Syndrome

I didn't even know what most of these were when discussing with the breeder so had to go home and do lots of Googling to find out.

On a separate note the puppies were also pretty well socialized even at 8 weeks, and the breeder had played music along with sounds such as fireworks, cars etc so they wouldn't be phased by those either. I was really impressed and has meant as first time owners we've been extremely lucky. If we ever get a second Cavapoo (I'm trying to persuade the partner) we will definitely be going back to them. On the downside as they've had so many tests amongst other things mentioned each pup was £1500 which I know is steeper than a lot of other breeders would charge.

EDIT: Here is a photo of our little Henry


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

islas93 said:


> Dam: Cavalier King Charles
> Episodic Falling
> Dry Eye
> Curly Coat Syndrome


I'm sure you pup is very sweet and I am sure the breeder brings them on well (for £1500 a pup) but the above is a 3 in 1 £35 DNA Test, that's all. You take a saliva sample and send it off. At the very least the Cavalier should have a yearly clear heart certificate (for Mitral Valve Disease) as early onset heart murmur is prevent in both parent breeds. I wouldn't have expected them to do an MRI scan for SM although of course they should.

I am sure your pup is lovely but maybe ask your breeder about the heart murmur test next time.

J


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I'm sure you pup is very sweet and I am sure the breeder brings them on well (for £1500 a pup) but the above is a 3 in 1 £35 DNA Test, that's all. You take a saliva sample and send it off. At the very least the Cavalier should have a yearly clear heart certificate (for Mitral Valve Disease) as early onset heart murmur is prevent in both parent breeds. I wouldn't have expected them to do an MRI scan for SM although of course they should.
> 
> I am sure your pup is lovely but maybe ask your breeder about the heart murmur test next time.
> 
> J


Hi James, thanks for your message. That's a little disappointing to hear but good that they have those tests I guess.

Regarding the heart murmur tests, I am sure the breeder did say the mother had been tested and was clear, I will need to double check that though.

It's hard being a first timer as you have all of this info coming at you and need to make light of what it all means and who is reliable etc.

He is a great little pup, the cuddly nature of a Cavalier and the energy of a Poodle rolled into one for sure!


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## Caz69 (Jun 15, 2020)

dannyshiers said:


> Hi all,
> 
> New to the forum, never owned a dog before, family of 4 from Lytham St. Annes, NW UK.
> Looking for a Cavapoo in the next few months.
> ...


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## Caz69 (Jun 15, 2020)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I'm sure you pup is very sweet and I am sure the breeder brings them on well (for £1500 a pup) but the above is a 3 in 1 £35 DNA Test, that's all. You take a saliva sample and send it off. At the very least the Cavalier should have a yearly clear heart certificate (for Mitral Valve Disease) as early onset heart murmur is prevent in both parent breeds. I wouldn't have expected them to do an MRI scan for SM although of course they should.
> 
> I am sure your pup is lovely but maybe ask your breeder about the heart murmur test next time.
> 
> J


I recently bought a beautiful, perfect temperament cavapoo from a registered breeder in Norfolk, near where I lived. Saw both parents had cuddle with 'dad'. BOTH parents had all the health checks and certs. Even got a copy of their pedigrees, as I'd like to have a litter from my girl. I also found out I got her from same place as my bessie got her labradoodle. She also has rescue dogs. 
only advice can give is do ur research, if doesn't feel right then don't! happy to provide contact for the breeder if wish. She also has other dogs for sale.


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

Caz69 said:


> I recently bought a beautiful, perfect temperament cavapoo from a registered breeder in Norfolk, near where I lived. Saw both parents had cuddle with 'dad'. BOTH parents had all the health checks and certs. Even got a copy of their pedigrees, as I'd like to have a litter from my girl. I also found out I got her from same place as my bessie got her labradoodle. She also has rescue dogs.
> only advice can give is do ur research, if doesn't feel right then don't! happy to provide contact for the breeder if wish. She also has other dogs for sale.


Breeding multiple crossbreeds throws up red flags for me, I'm afraid. You'll have a family tree, but it's impossible to have a pedigree for a cavalier x poodle dog as by definition that's a crossbreed not a pedigree. It's health tests you're after also, not just a visual check on the day.

I'm obviously glad you're happy with your puppy, but I wouldn't be recommending people who breed various mongrels advertising them as pedigree to others as ethical breeders.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Caz69 said:


> I recently bought a beautiful, perfect temperament cavapoo from a registered breeder in Norfolk, near where I lived. Saw both parents had cuddle with 'dad'. BOTH parents had all the health checks and certs. Even got a copy of their pedigrees, as I'd like to have a litter from my girl. I also found out I got her from same place as my bessie got her labradoodle. She also has rescue dogs.
> only advice can give is do ur research, if doesn't feel right then don't! happy to provide contact for the breeder if wish. She also has other dogs for sale.


As above, a crossbreed is not a pedigree. You may have gotten a family tree of sorts, but it's not a pedigree in that this is a registered breed. 
As for health 'checks' that's not the same as breed-specific, published, searchable heath 'tests'. 
I have a feeling I know who your breeder is, and I'll just say, no, they're not reputable, responsible, or ethical. 
How many litters do they have on the ground this time?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> As above, a crossbreed is not a pedigree. You may have gotten a family tree of sorts, but it's not a pedigree in that this is a registered breed.
> As for health 'checks' that's not the same as breed-specific, published, searchable heath 'tests'.
> I have a feeling I know who your breeder is, and I'll just say, no, they're not reputable, responsible, or ethical.
> How many litters do they have on the ground this time?


Do you think this might be from our resident puppy farmer? If so then I've just been on their website and there are about 4 different "breeds" currently advertised.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Sairy said:


> Do you think this might be from our resident puppy farmer? If so then I've just been on their website and there are about 4 different "breeds" currently advertised.


do you mean the mountain dogs, that are named after the flattest part of england, you could imagine?


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

mrs phas said:


> do you mean the mountain dogs, that are named after the flattest part of england, you could imagine?


Yes :Hilarious


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sairy said:


> Do you think this might be from our resident puppy farmer? If so then I've just been on their website and there are about 4 different "breeds" currently advertised.


I was wondering the same, although there are at least 3 other puppy farmers breeding this cross in the county that I know of.


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## Stevenson Altenbach (Jul 25, 2020)

Caz69 said:


> I recently bought a beautiful, perfect temperament cavapoo from a registered breeder in Norfolk, near where I lived. Saw both parents had cuddle with 'dad'. BOTH parents had all the health checks and certs. Even got a copy of their pedigrees, as I'd like to have a litter from my girl. I also found out I got her from same place as my bessie got her labradoodle. She also has rescue dogs.
> only advice can give is do ur research, if doesn't feel right then don't! happy to provide contact for the breeder if wish. She also has other dogs for sale.


Hi there, would love the contact details for your breeder. We've been looking for a cavapoo for a while now too but have been put off by the farms and scammers on the loose thanks to lockdown. Please send over her details! We'd be happy to wait for another litter if she's been a good breeder and your pup is gorgeous in the photo you shared. Thanks Sarah


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## Stevenson Altenbach (Jul 25, 2020)

islas93 said:


> Not sure where you live but up here in Scotland we got a Cavapoo 5 months ago from a fantastic breeder. They have done almost every type of health test on their stud and mother and we got to meet both beforehand several times both with and without the puppies. Since we brought Henry home last October he has been the best puppy ever and I am so glad we chose a Cavapoo.
> 
> It is a hard search but good breeders of Cavapoo's are out there and I don't like when people say they are just the next in line 'fad' or that they aren't worthy (not saying anyone here has said that.)
> 
> I would be happy to pass on the details of my breeder if you want them.


Hey there, would love the details of your breeder in Scotland. We've been looking for a cavapoo for awhile and there's just so many breeders out there, we haven't known where to start. Henry is gorgeous and your breeder sounds on top of all the necessary tests. Would love their details if you have time. Thanks, Sarah


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Stevenson Altenbach said:


> Hi there, would love the contact details for your breeder. We've been looking for a cavapoo for a while now too but have been put off by the farms and scammers on the loose thanks to lockdown. Please send over her details! We'd be happy to wait for another litter if she's been a good breeder and your pup is gorgeous in the photo you shared. Thanks Sarah


If you take the time to read the thread in its entirety you will see the 'breeder' in Norfolk is probably a puppy farm:
'Registered'- registered with whom? The KC don't recognise crossbreeds, & other 'registries' (DLRC, Evolutionary Dog Pedigree etc) aren't worth the paper they're written on & can be set up by anyone in their living room with moderate website design skills, acces to the internet & a printer.
Breeding multiple types of crosses
'Health checks' instead of knowing about specific health tests
Claims to 'rescue' dogs, likely to take in free dogs & either flip them for profit or breed from them
Has 'other dogs for sale', most good breeders have waiting lists

If you did decide to buy a puppy from them (& it's your absolute right to do so if you choose) you would be contributing to the continuation of animal suffering.


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## Caz69 (Jun 15, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> As above, a crossbreed is not a pedigree. You may have gotten a family tree of sorts, but it's not a pedigree in that this is a registered breed.
> As for health 'checks' that's not the same as breed-specific, published, searchable heath 'tests'.
> I have a feeling I know who your breeder is, and I'll just say, no, they're not reputable, responsible, or ethical.
> How many litters do they have on the ground this time?


The parents have full 'pedigree' and full health checks. I didn't say my pup was pedigree. Good healthy stock Makes good healthy pets!
I recently lost a nearly 17yr old x Jack Russel, I personally think the x bread dogs are so much healthier and live longer than pedigree ones. Although my cardigan corgi was nearly 15 when he died. Long as You do your research and choose wisely.


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## Caz69 (Jun 15, 2020)

Stevenson Altenbach said:


> Hi there, would love the contact details for your breeder. We've been looking for a cavapoo for a while now too but have been put off by the farms and scammers on the loose thanks to lockdown. Please send over her details! We'd be happy to wait for another litter if she's been a good breeder and your pup is gorgeous in the photo you shared. Thanks Sarah


Hi yes no problem

She is a registered breeder. Also has other breeds for sale. Just say Carol (Milly's owner) gave u details. I did let her know. Good luck let me know what u get. Hoping to breed Milly at some point in future.
Carol x

*Removed contact details.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Caz69 said:


> The parents have full 'pedigree' *and full health checks.* I didn't say my pup was pedigree. Good healthy stock Makes good healthy pets!
> I recently lost a nearly 17yr old x Jack Russel, I personally think the x bread dogs are so much healthier and live longer than pedigree ones. Although my cardigan corgi was nearly 15 when he died. Long as You do your research and choose wisely.


You need health *tests* on health checks, check just means it's checked the dog is healthy,* tests* are for making sure the dog doesn't carry any *breed* health problems.


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## Caz69 (Jun 15, 2020)

Caz69 said:


> I recently bought a beautiful, perfect temperament cavapoo from a registered breeder in Norfolk, near where I lived. Saw both parents had cuddle with 'dad'. BOTH parents had all the health checks and certs. Even got a copy of their pedigrees, as I'd like to have a litter from my girl. I also found out I got her from same place as my bessie got her labradoodle. She also has rescue dogs.
> only advice can give is do ur research, if doesn't feel right then don't! happy to provide contact for the breeder if wish. She also has other dogs for sale.


Sorry would like to add I meant 'full health' 'Tests' for any hereditary problems and were all clear from both parents. Hope that clears up my miss typing!


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## Caz69 (Jun 15, 2020)

Happy Paws2 said:


> You need health *tests* on health checks, check just means it's checked the dog is healthy,* tests* are for making sure the dog doesn't carry any *breed* health problems.


Yes 'full' screaming on both parents were done and clear. Sorry that's what I meant.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@Caz69 what does 'full' health tests mean? 
So you have a puppy from a cavalier and a poodle. There are multiple, _different_ tests recommended for both breeds. Even the top breeders rarely do the entire battery of available tests, and some simply don't make sense for the breed. You would test a poodle for PRA, but I don't think it's necessary for cavvies, However, heart exams are definitely needed for cavvies, and not as much of an issue for poodles.

So again, what does 'full' health tests mean? Are the results published in a searchable database? What tests will you do on your mixed dog before breeding her?


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## Caz69 (Jun 15, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> @Caz69 what does 'full' health tests mean?
> So you have a puppy from a cavalier and a poodle. There are multiple, _different_ tests recommended for both breeds. Even the top breeders rarely do the entire battery of available tests, and some simply don't make sense for the breed. You would test a poodle for PRA, but I don't think it's necessary for cavvies, However, heart exams are definitely needed for cavvies, and not as much of an issue for poodles.
> 
> So again, what does 'full' health tests mean? Are the results published in a searchable database? What tests will you do on your mixed dog before breeding her?


Reply from lady whom I bought From

Hi Carol, no bother at all.
If you want to breed Milly you need to choose a boy who is tested clear for all dna tests that way their progeny will never suffer from the conditions. Only one parent needs to be tested clear for their babies never to be affected.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

@Caz69, do you believe there is a DNA test for Syringomyelia and mitral valve disease?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Caz69 said:


> Reply from lady whom I bought From
> 
> Hi Carol, no bother at all.
> If you want to breed Milly you need to choose a boy who is tested clear for all dna tests that way their progeny will never suffer from the conditions. Only one parent needs to be tested clear for their babies never to be affected.


That doesn't make any sense. Your dog is a mix of (at least) 2 breeds so will have to be tested for both breed genetic problems. Whatever the stud you use to create more mongrels will need the tests for whatever breeds he is mixed with.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Caz69 said:


> Reply from lady whom I bought From
> 
> Hi Carol, no bother at all.
> If you want to breed Milly you need to choose a boy who is tested clear for all dna tests that way their progeny will never suffer from the conditions. Only one parent needs to be tested clear for their babies never to be affected.


You're still not listing specific tests that need to be done. 
Can you or your breeder name ONE specific health test that might be needed for a cavvie or poodle? And if so, was that test done on either of your pup's parents? If so, what were the results? Where were they published?

You're skirting around the questions.

Thing is, breeders have gotten wise to this 'heath test' thing and spout all sorts of nonsense like 'all' health tests done. There is not 'all' heath tests. There are specific, indidividual tests breeders choose to do based on the breed, the lines, and many other factors. A good breeder should be able to easily rattle off what tests were done, why they chose those and not a different one, what the results were, if they were happy with those results or not, and what they would test for in any offspring they might choose to breed. Anything else sounds like an attempt to obfuscate and evade.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Caz69 said:


> Reply from lady whom I bought From
> 
> Hi Carol, no bother at all.
> If you want to breed Milly you need to choose a boy who is tested clear for all dna tests that way their progeny will never suffer from the conditions. Only one parent needs to be tested clear for their babies never to be affected.


Not necessarily so. Autosomal dominant conditions only require one parent to have the condition in order to pass it onto offspring.

What breed are you thinking of breeding her with?


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## David Farrell (Aug 26, 2020)

islas93 said:


> Not sure where you live but up here in Scotland we got a Cavapoo 5 months ago from a fantastic breeder. They have done almost every type of health test on their stud and mother and we got to meet both beforehand several times both with and without the puppies. Since we brought Henry home last October he has been the best puppy ever and I am so glad we chose a Cavapoo.
> 
> It is a hard search but good breeders of Cavapoo's are out there and I don't like when people say they are just the next in line 'fad' or that they aren't worthy (not saying anyone here has said that.)
> 
> I would be happy to pass on the details of my breeder if you want them.


Hi there....I'd love to find out where you got your Cavapoo from in Scotland


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## Emjays (Sep 8, 2020)

islas93 said:


> Not sure where you live but up here in Scotland we got a Cavapoo 5 months ago from a fantastic breeder. They have done almost every type of health test on their stud and mother and we got to meet both beforehand several times both with and without the puppies. Since we brought Henry home last October he has been the best puppy ever and I am so glad we chose a Cavapoo.
> 
> It is a hard search but good breeders of Cavapoo's are out there and I don't like when people say they are just the next in line 'fad' or that they aren't worthy (not saying anyone here has said that.)
> 
> I would be happy to pass on the details of my breeder if you want them.


Hi Isla, I wondered if you would mind sharing the details of your breeder with me please? I am also based in Scotland and have been looking for a Cavapoo for a while now. Good breeders are so hard to find, and your pup sounds like it has such a lovely nature and it would be amazing to be able to find one the same. Many thanks, Emma


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## Nance8 (Dec 10, 2020)

islas93 said:


> Not sure where you live but up here in Scotland we got a Cavapoo 5 months ago from a fantastic breeder. They have done almost every type of health test on their stud and mother and we got to meet both beforehand several times both with and without the puppies. Since we brought Henry home last October he has been the best puppy ever and I am so glad we chose a Cavapoo.
> 
> It is a hard search but good breeders of Cavapoo's are out there and I don't like when people say they are just the next in line 'fad' or that they aren't worthy (not saying anyone here has said that.)
> 
> I would be happy to pass on the details of my breeder if you want them.


hi, I was wondering if you can share where in Scotland you got your cavapoo from? Thanks


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## Nicola Batey (Dec 29, 2020)

Hi, could you pass on the details for the breader you used. I've just started to search for a reputable breader in Scotland. Thanks


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

I have no idea where islas 93 got her cavapoo from - she is not a regular user of the forum and hasnt posted on here since may. You might be able to send her a private message @Nicola Batey .

Maybe it was this place

http://www.glendreamcockapoos.com/

I dont know anything about the place, dont own a cavapoo, dont know anyone who has a cavapoo from here. It is just the only place in Scotland apart from gumtree that seems to have cavapoos advertised online.

So, just a guess that this might be the place. They seem to be breeding cockerpoos and cavapoos which might well be a red flag in itself. It is so, so difficult to get reputable breeders of these dogs.

If i were wanting a cavapoo, i think i would stop folk in the street who had one and ask about their dog. In non covid times, folk love to chat about their dogs.

If they had a healthy dog from a healthy pup, that might be a way to go - find out where they got their dog.


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

David Farrell said:


> Hi there....I'd love to find out where you got your Cavapoo from in Scotland





Emjays said:


> Hi Isla, I wondered if you would mind sharing the details of your breeder with me please? I am also based in Scotland and have been looking for a Cavapoo for a while now. Good breeders are so hard to find, and your pup sounds like it has such a lovely nature and it would be amazing to be able to find one the same. Many thanks, Emma





Nance8 said:


> hi, I was wondering if you can share where in Scotland you got your cavapoo from? Thanks





Nicola Batey said:


> Hi, could you pass on the details for the breader you used. I've just started to search for a reputable breader in Scotland. Thanks


Deleted post as don't want to advertise breeder.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

islas93 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Henry was purchased from Blue Ridge Doodles, based in Airdrie, Scotland. It won't let me link the website here but they're on Google etc.
> 
> We have just took the plunge and purchased a sister (Betty) who we bring home on 6th May. I believe he does have another litter coming up but chances are it will be slim pickings for availability. We only got Betty reserved as we have been asking him since last June. Very in demand but absolutely contact them and see what they say!


Its concerning that they are breeding so many different dogs, and there's no individual information on the adult dogs. One would think if the breeders were so proud of the dogs that they are producing, they'd be singing their adult dogs praises from the roof!
Instead, the 'our dogs' section is just generic and biased information about the crossbreeds produced.

A puppy farm by any other name.

The health tests are definitely a very good thing, but two of the major life altering conditions which affect cavs don't seem to be mentioned at all, much less tested for. Which the breeds health even as purebreds in such dire straights, that's really incredibly disappointing. There's no way the breeders aren't aware of these issues, but finding dogs not affected to use would of course hamper their puppy producing plans....


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

It's very worrying that the general public still dont seem to be getting the message about puppy farms, and seem so desperate to get their hands On designer crossbreeds. People are seemingly easily hoodwinked and parted from their money.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> It's very worrying that the general public still dont seem to be getting the message about puppy farms, and seem so desperate to get their hands On designer crossbreeds. People are seemingly easily hoodwinked and parted from their money.


Lots of cute puppy pictures to garner interest but no details of the parents, lack of health tests for the more serious diseases of cavaliers, probably omitted due to cost.

They may be doing things a bit better than many other puppy farms but they're still a puppy farm.


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

Leanne77 said:


> It's very worrying that the general public still dont seem to be getting the message about puppy farms, and seem so desperate to get their hands On designer crossbreeds. People are seemingly easily hoodwinked and parted from their money.


Hi Leanne, I really appreciate your message. I don't think 'desperate' is the way to describe the way I have decided to get either of my dogs. Before my first (Henry) my partner and I spent around 8/9 months researching breeds and their traits, which would be good for our lifestyle and size of our home and the other million things you think of when buying a puppy.



simplysardonic said:


> Lots of cute puppy pictures to garner interest but no details of the parents, lack of health tests for the more serious diseases of cavaliers, probably omitted due to cost.
> 
> They may be doing things a bit better than many other puppy farms but they're still a puppy farm.


I agree, I may have been wrongly led down a path here, but it all seemed legitimate to me - again before Henry I called the vets and they had nothing but good words to say about the breeder, when meeting everything was clean and spotless and the puppies were well looked after. This is why I returned to him for my second as I had such a good experience with Henry.

I feel terrible now that I have seemingly bought into a puppy farm - I just wanted to make the point that not everybody is 'desperate' for a 'designer crossbreed' - I chose a Cavapoo based on my life and what we could handle but knew we wanted a dog. For example, my parents were both RAF dog trainers/handlers and I'd love a German Shepard, but I don't have space for one. I took my mum with me when meeting Henry as well and she said nothing to alarm me. I also wouldn't describe my experience as being 'hoodwinked' - I found in person he was very knowledgeable and helpful, but perhaps I am naïve.

Last Friday I met the puppy I have chosen and also met both parents, saw them interact with the puppies and asked any questions I had about them too. I don't know, they are obviously just slightly more sophisticated than other puppy farms.

Basically my very long point is that not everyone should be tarred with the same brush. I did all the research I possibly could and now to be honest I feel awful for buying into it.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Not all puppy farms are the feces encrusted, dark, dank sheds of horror that seem to be most often reported (because those are the photos that evoke such strong emotions, of course).
They can also - as you've seen - be clean and well presented, saying all the right things.

The thing that makes them puppy farms is the churning out of puppies after puppies with little concern for anything except profit.

Which is absolutely the case for the breeders you have recommended, as already stated above; bare minimum of health tests, which is such a shame and downright unacceptable for a breed like a cavalier, no information or celebration of parents or their achievements, only good things to say about the crosses they sell, many different crosses produced, no need to worry about stud fees since they own both the males and females.
Nobody is going to come to your shop if it looks like a hell hole - gotta keep up appearances.


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

BlueJay said:


> Not all puppy farms are the feces encrusted, dark, dank sheds of horror that seem to be most often reported (because those are the photos that evoke such strong emotions, of course).
> They can also - as you've seen - be clean and well presented, saying all the right things.
> 
> The thing that makes them puppy farms is the churning out of puppies after puppies with little concern for anything except profit.
> ...


Well, I feel pretty crap now for falling for it.

Surprised my mum didn't pick up on anything too.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

islas93 said:


> Hi Leanne, I really appreciate your message. I don't think 'desperate' is the way to describe the way I have decided to get either of my dogs. Before my first (Henry) my partner and I spent around 8/9 months researching breeds and their traits, which would be good for our lifestyle and size of our home and the other million things you think of when buying a puppy.
> 
> I agree, I may have been wrongly led down a path here, but it all seemed legitimate to me - again before Henry I called the vets and they had nothing but good words to say about the breeder, when meeting everything was clean and spotless and the puppies were well looked after. This is why I returned to him for my second as I had such a good experience with Henry.
> 
> ...


So you'll be asking for your deposit back on the pup you were going to get in May?


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

islas93 said:


> Well, I feel pretty crap now for falling for it.


Good! So you should.

Now you can hopefully help to educate others about things, rather than promoting and supporting them


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

islas93 said:


> I spent around 8/9 months researching breeds and their traits


But not health issues and what health testing breeds require?


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

Do you guys not think you're being a little harsh? I completely agree and understand. 

This was truly, genuinely an accident.


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## islas93 (Apr 15, 2020)

O2.0 said:


> So you'll be asking for your deposit back on the pup you were going to get in May?


I will give him a call shortly.


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

I know I’m flogging a dead horse, and largely preaching to the choir, but I can’t read these threads without saying to myself over and over “why?” I genuinely don’t get it. What is the attraction of all these cross breeds? I’m not having a go at everyone with a mixed breed dog, but I can’t understand how and why so many deliberately choose a cross breed dog from a “breeder”. If you want specific physical characteristics or a particular temperament, why choose a cross breed where these will be unpredictable? In the case of cavapoos, what do they have that you can’t find in a cavalier or a poodle? What is it about cavaliers or poodles that you don’t want that you think will be eliminated by cross breeding? I just find myself baffled by it all. With all the breeds out there, it shouldn’t be too hard to find one that is a good match for you. You may have to compromise on some things but that’s life. Alternatively, adopt from a rescue.

sorry about a fairly pointless rant but at least I’ve got it off my chest! I just sit here muttering why why why.....


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

urbantigers said:


> I know I'm flogging a dead horse, and largely preaching to the choir, but I can't read these threads without saying to myself over and over "why?" I genuinely don't get it. What is the attraction of all these cross breeds? I'm not having a go at everyone with a mixed breed dog, but I can't understand how and why so many deliberately choose a cross breed dog from a "breeder". If you want specific physical characteristics or a particular temperament, why choose a cross breed where these will be unpredictable? In the case of cavapoos, what do they have that you can't find in a cavalier or a poodle? What is it about cavaliers or poodles that you don't want that you think will be eliminated by cross breeding? I just find myself baffled by it all. With all the breeds out there, it shouldn't be too hard to find one that is a good match for you. You may have to compromise on some things but that's life. Alternatively, adopt from a rescue.
> 
> sorry about a fairly pointless rant but at least I've got it off my chest! I just sit here muttering why why why.....


I can only agree with you on this
I have always chosen a pedigree dog because I want a dog to look and act in a way that I like. The first dog I bought, as opposed to what my parents chose, was an Irish Setter. The reason I went for the breed was because I just loved the colour and look plus the temperament was of a type I preferred and could handle. I then moved onto golden retrievers for the same reason. 
There are so many different pedigree breeds of dog that look pretty similar to many crossbreeds, some of those pedigree dogs are on the vulnerable list and would benefit greatly from more people getting puppies and perhaps going onto breeding them in the future in order to perpetuate them. Someone I know has got a Dandie Dinmont terrier puppy last year, only 87 puppies were registered. The breeder she bought from has already asked if the pup turns out well and passes health tests would she allow her to have a litter or two. Looking at the adult dog they look not unlike some of the the Shih Tzu crosses and you will know pretty much what you will be getting in looks and temperament plus going to a KC breeder who is health testing you are more likely to have a healthy dog that lives a long and pain free life. What's not to like


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

islas93 said:


> Do you guys not think you're being a little harsh? I completely agree and understand.
> 
> This was truly, genuinely an accident.


I think people sound harsh because everyone is so passionate about responsible breeders it has been heartbreaking to see what has been happening since lockdown. Bitches are being used to churn out litter after litter for money.

Would you consider a well bred poodle ? Or mini poodle we have some beautiful ones on the forum. As others have said Cavs have a lot of potential health problems. Health tests are a must.


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## Bukhara (Aug 25, 2019)

urbantigers said:


> I know I'm flogging a dead horse, and largely preaching to the choir, but I can't read these threads without saying to myself over and over "why?" I genuinely don't get it. What is the attraction of all these cross breeds?


Weren't all pedigree dogs, at some stage in their development, just cross/mixed breeds?
In 100 years time, is it possible that Cockerpoo or whatever will eventually have its own pedigree?

*I'm not an owner of those breeds and I don't advocate for puppy farm operations! I'm just curious about the continual evolution of domesticated dogs.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Bukhara said:


> Weren't all pedigree dogs, at some stage in their development, just cross/mixed breeds?
> In 100 years time, is it possible that Cockerpoo or whatever will eventually have its own pedigree?
> 
> *I'm not an owner of those breeds and I don't advocate for puppy farm operations! I'm just curious about the continual evolution of domesticated dogs.


Yes, they were, but they were developed with a purpose in mind & only dogs who excelled at the job they were needed for were used for breeding.

Unfortunately the health, temperament & overall quality of the dogs used for most of these modern crosses is usually lacking, & even when breeding for a pet market these need to be taken into account.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Bukhara said:


> Weren't all pedigree dogs, at some stage in their development, just cross/mixed breeds?
> In 100 years time, is it possible that Cockerpoo or whatever will eventually have its own pedigree?


Not the way they're currently being bred.

The hint is in the name - purebred. Essentially that the dog breeds 'pure'

When you cross a litter of two breeds, you get a very non-uniform litter. Some will look like mom's breed, some will look like dad's breed, and some will look nothing like either breed, and the puppies will also look different from each other.

If you were actually developing a breed, you would select the puppies from that litter that have the traits you're looking for and the others you set aside and don't breed from them. 
From the selected puppies, you breed again, and again set aside the ones who don't have the traits you're looking for and keep the ones who do for breeding. Through careful selection of the offspring, you will eventually have a new breed where you can breed any dogs of that breed and they will produce a litter of uniform puppies who all have the traits of the new breed. You don't have to cull any of the pups because they're not what you want. The dogs breed pure. Purebreed.

That's not what's happening with the whateverapoo dogs. They're not selecting only puppies with certain traits to breed, they're just crossing a poodle with whatever breed and slapping a cute name on it, but there is no purpose or careful selection to the breeding - other than 'rare' colors.


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## Bukhara (Aug 25, 2019)

simplysardonic said:


> Unfortunately the health, temperament & overall quality of the dogs used for most of these modern crosses is usually lacking, & even when breeding for a pet market these need to be taken into account.


Agreed, in the current climate where there is high demand for dogs and many people are struggling for money, the temptation to churn out any old doodle will be very strong.

But you have to ask if these x-breeds are just a fad or are they here to stay permanently? No doubt, they won't sustain the current popularity forever but Pandora's Box has been opened and these dogs are likely to hang around.

Even if an ethical breeder who wants to meet market forces (and there is no shame for any breeder to make a reasonable profit) was selling these dogs, I get the feeling that there is still a huge amount of snobbery with regards to pedigree dogs that they would still be dismissed out of hand and you'd be told to look at an alternative breed.

I'm not being argumentative or anything like that. I own 2 mutts which have been spayed. It's just the mere mention of Cockerpoo or Cavadoodle or Christ knows what else is guaranteed to get certain responses on this forum!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Bukhara said:


> Agreed, in the current climate where there is high demand for dogs and many people are struggling for money, the temptation to churn out any old doodle will be very strong.
> 
> But you have to ask if these x-breeds are just a fad or are they here to stay permanently? No doubt, they won't sustain the current popularity forever but Pandora's Box has been opened and these dogs are likely to hang around.
> 
> ...


I think what you're perceiving as snobbery is frustration with irresponsible breeding practices and ignorant buyers.

I too have two muttdogs and no one has ever said anything remotely snobbish about my two not being pedigrees. There's a difference between "I have a huskashitzador" and "I'm thinking of getting a huskashitzador where can I get one?" The latter is going to get a lot different responses simply because there is an opportunity to educate and steer the poster away from an uninformed decision.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

It’s not so much that Poo type dogs are being bred, it’s the lack of health and temperament testing. They are trying to produce a look rather then a purpose such a cute looking dog with a curly coat. There’s already several breeds that are cute with a curly coat such as the poodle, so there seems to be no purpose in trying to come up with a similar dog which can often have a major drawback. Despite looking like a poodle many curly coated whateverpoos have both hair and fur meaning that the curly hair type coat has an undercoat of fur which is shed continually with a full moult twice a year and all this shedding fur gets tangled up in the curly hair producing matts. If the dog isn’t groomed properly that means 6 weekly visits to the groomers for it to be all shaved off, so not a cute curly coat after all.
Much easier to get a poodle


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Bukhara said:


> (and there is no shame for any breeder to make a reasonable profit)


For a breeder to make a profit, generally speaking, corners have to be cut. And it's the animals who suffer.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Bukhara said:


> Agreed, in the current climate where there is high demand for dogs and many people are struggling for money, the temptation to churn out any old doodle will be very strong.
> 
> But you have to ask if these x-breeds are just a fad or are they here to stay permanently? No doubt, they won't sustain the current popularity forever but Pandora's Box has been opened and these dogs are likely to hang around.
> 
> ...


It depends what is meant by 'reasonable profit', good breeders don't do it for the money but to make healthy dogs fit for purpose in whatever roles they are designated for- be it companion, sport or work.

If they make any profit it's usually to cover the substantial costs of campaigning, working, health testing, travelling to the stud dog, etc, & is put back into the dogs so they can continue to breed great dogs for both themselves & others, not banked for a luxury holiday or Range Rover.

I'm not in agreement with market forces for living things, people need to learn they can't always have what they want when they want it, & not every family deserves an animal, if they did then rescues wouldn't be in existence in the sheer numbers that they are.

It's not snobbery, I have a purebred, 2 mutts & a crossbreed, but I do find it amusing that people think they're buying something special & unique when their £4000 mutt costs 20x more than my rescue purebred, & £4000 more than my crossbreed.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

simplysardonic said:


> I do find it amusing that people think they're buying something special & unique when their £4000 mutt costs 20x more than my rescue purebred, & £4000 more than my crossbreed.


But they're RArE CoLOrZ!!!

I'm going to start hashtagging the swamp rat as a rare breed on instagram. :Hilarious
I just need a clever name....


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> But they're RArE CoLOrZ!!!
> 
> I'm going to start hashtagging the swamp rat as a rare breed on instagram. :Hilarious
> I just need a clever name....


Oh,I quite like Swamp Rat, you could always make it Swamp Ratter!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> But they're RArE CoLOrZ!!!
> 
> I'm going to start hashtagging the swamp rat as a rare breed on instagram. :Hilarious
> I just need a clever name....


I've had a fair few people believe 'Romanian street dog' is an actual breed!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

simplysardonic said:


> I've had a fair few people believe 'Romanian street dog' is an actual breed!


I just giggled! That's pretty funny actually!



SusieRainbow said:


> Oh,I quite like Swamp Rat, you could always make it Swamp Ratter!


Oh good idea! Appalachian swamp ratter. Banjo not included


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

I am certainly not snobbish about mixed breed or cross breed dogs themselves, just against the breeding practices employed to produce most of them.

it’s a shame that so many rare breeds are in danger of disappearing completely whilst people randomly cross breeds in an attempt to produce something which already exists. It makes me sad that poodles seem to valued these days more for what they can contribute to a cross breed than for what they themselves can offer.

I grew up with a cocker spaniel. I love them and part of me would love another one. I also love poodles. But I’m not going to look for a cockerpoo. I’m going to think about which breed would be best for me (and have pretty much decided it will be a poodle)


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

urbantigers said:


> I am certainly not snobbish about mixed breed or cross breed dogs themselves, just against the breeding practices employed to produce most of them.
> 
> it's a shame that so many rare breeds are in danger of disappearing completely whilst people randomly cross breeds in an attempt to produce something which already exists. It makes me sad that poodles seem to valued these days more for what they can contribute to a cross breed than for what they themselves can offer.


Sadly unless something like an outcross programme is used many of the rarest breeds will no longer be genetically viable in the not too distant future, & many more populous breeds have the danger of popular sire syndrome across the generations.

That is the one thing that at least isn't an issue with first crosses, & many doodle breeders have used this as a selling point even though the dogs they're using have nothing else to offer bar an inbreeding coefficient of zero.


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## Bukhara (Aug 25, 2019)

urbantigers said:


> it's a shame that so many rare breeds are in danger of disappearing completely whilst people randomly cross breeds in an attempt to produce something which already exists.


But, ahem, if I play Devil's Advocate, a dog is a dog. We are not talking about the extinction of the Panda or even naturally occurring variants such as Scarlet Macaws and Blue & Yellow Macaws which can happily interbreed.

All domesticated dog breeds were created by mankind. We can make them again, if needs be.

I read an article not long ago about the Old English Sheepdog which was once very popular but is now in danger of disappearing. Is that really such a bad thing? Given that their original breeding purpose (in the UK, at least) is largely redundant, shouldn't we be veering away from breeds which are less ideal in urban environments or pure pet households?


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Bukhara said:


> But, ahem, if I play Devil's Advocate, a dog is a dog. We are not talking about the extinction of the Panda or even naturally occurring variants such as Scarlet Macaws and Blue & Yellow Macaws which can happily interbreed.
> 
> All domesticated dog breeds were created by mankind. We can make them again, if needs be.
> 
> I read an article not long ago about the Old English Sheepdog which was once very popular but is now in danger of disappearing. Is that really such a bad thing? Given that their original breeding purpose (in the UK, at least) is largely redundant, shouldn't we be veering away from breeds which are less ideal in urban environments or pure pet households?


In a perfect world, breeds that have defining features that are detrimental to their health and wellbeing should be the ones going extinct (or not have to suffer those features in the first place!), rather than physically sound breeds who's historic jobs may be redundant, but can still make lovely pets and working dogs.
Heck, the vast majority of breeds now have very little to do with their original purpose in most of the world!

Comparing an established breed with a (more or less) well set size, type, traits and temperament to random crosses bred for nothing but popularity and money is a little silly. Even purpose bred sport/working mixes are produced with an aim in mind, not just because.

Of course all dogs are dogs, but by no means are all dogs equal on all fronts.
And recreating something is not the same as preserving it.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Bukhara said:


> Weren't all pedigree dogs, at some stage in their development, just cross/mixed breeds?
> In 100 years time, is it possible that Cockerpoo or whatever will eventually have its own pedigree?
> 
> *I'm not an owner of those breeds and I don't advocate for puppy farm operations! I'm just curious about the continual evolution of domesticated dogs.


It is very possible to produce a new breed that breeds true in a few generations. Not going to happen with the poodle crosses though. The cockerpoo was a named cross in the US in the 50s, so 70 years ago, and it has never been turned into a breed. Labradoodles have been around since the 70s and all that has happened with them is that they have had more and more breeds introduced into them for some odd reason. I met a very expensive one last year that was worth the extra because it was made up of 5 breeds!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Shanna85 (Oct 15, 2021)

islas93 said:


> Hi James, thanks for your message. That's a little disappointing to hear but good that they have those tests I guess.
> 
> Regarding the heart murmur tests, I am sure the breeder did say the mother had been tested and was clear, I will need to double check that though.
> 
> ...


Hi Islas, I'm new to the forum and came across this post while researching Cavapoo breeders. I would love to know which breeder you got your Cavapoo from as they sound very reputable!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Shanna85 said:


> Hi Islas, I'm new to the forum and came across this post while researching Cavapoo breeders. I would love to know which breeder you got your Cavapoo from as they sound very reputable!


But did you read the later posts? Because it turns out they weren't reputable at all.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

JoanneF said:


> But did you read the later posts? Because it turns out they weren't reputable at all.


And this encapsulates the whole issue.

People who want a poo breed will only hear (read) what they want to.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> And this encapsulates the whole issue.
> 
> *People who want a poo breed will only hear (read) what they want to*.


Don't they just. Another case of want over welfare


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## Bizzi Kizzi (May 24, 2021)

It seems to be getting worse. Crossbreeds are so fashionable. I saw an advert on facebook for a litter of Cane Corso crossed with Mastiff the other day! I'm no expert, but that sounds like a really bad idea.

Me, I'm happy with my purebred Rumanian Street Dog.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

What I don’t understand is what are you getting from a poodle cross you can’t get from a poodle ?


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> What I don't understand is what are you getting from a poodle cross you can't get from a poodle ?


I've never understood that either. Nor the train of thought that goes "cavalier? No, not the right breed. Poodle? No, not the right breed. Cross of the 2? Yup, perfect. Saw one in the park once and it was cute."


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Bizzi Kizzi said:


> It seems to be getting worse. Crossbreeds are so fashionable. I saw an advert on facebook for a litter of Cane Corso crossed with Mastiff the other day! I'm no expert, but that sounds like a really bad idea.
> 
> Me, I'm happy with my purebred Rumanian Street Dog.


I'm not against crossbreeds, if the breeders are doing everything to breed healthy, functional dogs with great temperaments, but the vast majority aren't.

Have to say Cane Corso/Mastiff crosses would at least be reasonably compatible in terms of size & temperament (but still a whole lot of dog to take on), I saw a rescue with a young Akita/Westie cross looking for a home just the other day, weirdest looking dog, like a tiny, stubby legged Akita with wire hair.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I've seen a couple and they are very cute, if I saw one iin rescue I would be tempted if all was well wth it. But obviously I would never support the breeding by buying a puppy


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> a young Akita/Westie


 I wonder what posh/expensive ''breed'' name they thought up for that! The mind boggles.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Boxer123 said:


> What I don't understand is what are you getting from a poodle cross you can't get from a poodle ?


The amount of doodle owners who claim they hate poodles is quite phenomenal, considering their dogs are at least 50% poodle.



urbantigers said:


> I've never understood that either. Nor the train of thought that goes "cavalier? No, not the right breed. Poodle? No, not the right breed. Cross of the 2? Yup, perfect. Saw one in the park once and it was cute."


They do a tiny bit of research into basic genetics & believe that crossing a breed means all the best traits of both magically decoct into the resultant puppies.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> The amount of doodle owners who claim they hate poodles is quite phenomenal, considering their dogs are at least 50% poodle.
> 
> They do a tiny bit of research into basic genetics & believe that crossing a breed means all the best traits of both magically decoct into the resultant puppies.


And of course 'they don't shed' and are 'hypoallergenic '!


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

The majority of behaviour consultations I have done this year have been for cockapoos and cavapoos, far more so than any other type of dog.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

SusieRainbow said:


> And of course 'they don't shed' and are 'hypoallergenic '!


I saw my SIL's labradoodle for the first time in 18 months the other day, he apparently doesn't shed but I was horrified with how matted he was.

I'm actually stumped with what she can do with him, she's very upset by how bad his coat's gotten but he has been 'nicked' by clippers in the past so now thrases & bites when she tries to groom him, & of course professional groomers won't touch him.

I think the only option she has is to get him sedated at the vets & get him shaved down to the skin as a welfare groom & then work on a gentle desensitizing programme, there's no way he can be just brushed out at this stage.

But of course the 'breeders' never mention these substantial grooming needs when buyers are reaching into their wallets.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

I think most people haven’t met a poodle so have a misconception about them and want a curly coated teddy bear looking dog and so a poodle cross seems like a good option. I’ve seen so many matted poodle crosses too and it makes me wince each time


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## urbantigers (Apr 13, 2014)

I think a lot of people think poodles come with the show cut, including shaved face, and don’t actually realise the coat can be cut however you want and can look just like poodle cross coat.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Sairy said:


> The majority of behaviour consultations I have done this year have been for cockapoos and cavapoos, far more so than any other type of dog.


Probably partly because there are so many of them. Around half the pups we get in our dog training club are poodle crosses, mainly cockerpoos. And they're often taken on by inexperienced owners who don't know anything about breed traits and just go for the fluffy appearance and handy size.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sairy said:


> The majority of behaviour consultations I have done this year have been for cockapoos and cavapoos, far more so than any other type of dog.


Same on this side of the pond. My trainer friends end up seeing a lot of -poo crosses for behavioral issues. 
Like @Burrowzig said, just their sheer numbers makes them more likely to be seen by trainers, but the fact that they're bred so indiscriminately with no attention paid to temperament doesn't help. The ones crossed with spaniels in particular tend to have anxiety/nerves issues.

Spaniels and poodles are both working breeds with a lot of energy who are meant to be busy with a job. Easy to warp that intelligence and worker attitude in to neurotic-ness.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Yes I think it's a combination of them being so popular, the fact that they seem to be a favourite of first-time or novice owners and also the anxiety issues which seem to be very prevalent. A lot of the ones I have met are very nervy and a bit neurotic. It has to be about more than just how many there are around because there have been nowhere near as many consultations with other very popular breeds such as labs, goldies, spaniels etc.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Sairy said:


> Yes I think it's a combination of them being so popular, the fact that they seem to be a favourite of first-time or novice owners and also the anxiety issues which seem to be very prevalent. A lot of the ones I have met are very nervy and a bit neurotic. It has to be about more than just how many there are around because there have been nowhere near as many consultations with other very popular breeds such as labs, goldies, spaniels etc.


I know Pupcakes, one of the rescues I follow on FB, have a lot of poodle crosses coming in with bite histories, mostly resource guarding but some seem to just be very anxious, neurotic dogs, especially the young ones purchased during lockdown.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I have 2 cockerpoos living next door to me now.
They bark at EVERYTHING.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

simplysardonic said:


> I know Pupcakes, one of the rescues I follow on FB, have a lot of poodle crosses coming in with bite histories, mostly resource guarding but some seem to just be very anxious, neurotic dogs, especially the young ones purchased during lockdown.


Yeah we've had a lot with SA, resource guarding and reactivity issues.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I see loads of little curly dogs being walked. Most of them do seem rather nervous. 

There is such stigma attached to poodles though I am constantly stopped and told how lovely it is to see real poodles and nearly everyone has a story about how they were brought up with a poodle or their granny had one. I have got fed up now with people telling me how sweet my poodles are so I thank them and tell them they are wonderful ratters and rabbiters. Someone yesterday really p'd me off telling their mongrel that my dogs were its cousins. That does not mean I would not own a poodle cross if one came up when I was looking for a dog but a poodle would be first choice.

I bred a litter of standard poodles and kept 2 pups. One of them was a disaster as a farm dog so I rehomed her. I was inundated with totally unsuitable offers of homes when I advertised her but eventually the perfect person came along. She spent time with her outside with her kids before making a decision and then she took her away and kept in close contact. But the really funny thing was that her very macho husband had said she was welcome to a poodle but he was having nothing to do with a dog like that. She phoned me that evening saying he had invited all his mates round to admire his new dog! Connie was in her element, she was allowed to sleep on beds with the kids, had good walks and a town life that suited her much better and was a much loved pet. She was a very showy and well put together dog and they had a litter from her later on which I was happy enough with. Sadly she died reasonably young , I cant remember why but she had such a happy life.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Linda Weasel said:


> I have 2 cockerpoos living next door to me now.
> They bark at EVERYTHING.


I had a dream that I strangled my neighbours Labradoodle :Bag:Muted:Nailbiting
The barking does wear you down after a while.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Sairy said:


> The majority of behaviour consultations I have done this year have been for cockapoos and cavapoos, far more so than any other type of dog.


When I get people contacting me after their dog has bitten, I could probably bet £100 that is is a cocker/cavapoo and not be worried about losing the money. And we don't have as many round here as in other parts of the country. Don't get me wrong, there are lots, but otherwise I don't get many in normal training class, just reactive classes and 121s for real issues.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Gemmaa said:


> I had a dream that I strangled my neighbours Labradoodle :Bag:Muted:Nailbiting
> The barking does wear you down after a while.


That probably would not be a dream with me. There is a bloody dachshund that barks at everyone that goes by and another dog that periodically barks. It was fine when my dogs would bark when they heard either of them because I would bellow at them and the other dog would shut up. Now mine have learnt not to bark I cant very well do it .


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