# Am I being charged two much?



## pippa69

Hello, I don't post on this board much but i really need some advice. We are hopeing to get a Maine Coon kitten and found a breeders site and fell in love with a gorgeous boy. When we contacted the breeder she said she charges £500! She said that was an adverage price but i can't believe they cost so much because thats like the price of a dog! A friend of ours has just got a Burmese kitten for £350 and that is the sort of price I thought we would be paying.

Can anyone tell me why certain breeds of cats are sold for more than others or is it just up to the individual breeders on what they charge? Do bigger cats cost more to raise, are we paying more because we are getting a bigger breed?

Thnaks


Pip X


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## messyhearts

£500 isn't the average price for a Maine Coon. Do you mind me asking the prefix of this breeder? I paid £350 for my show quality female last year. We paid nearly £500 for my show quality Birman boy but he was right & money wasn't an issue at that point & Birmans are dearer than Maine Coons anyway. You should be paying £450 at the very very maximum & even then you would want a show potential boy.


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## pippa69

Thanks messyhearts.I'd rather not say who the breeders is, only that she is in Essex. I don't know if he is a show potential kitten but that wouldn't matter because we don't go to cat shows.


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## messyhearts

If he was potentially a show cat, the breeder could be looking to charge you extra for that regardless of your intentions to show as that cat is, in their eyes, a particular quality that others who may have wanted him to show would have paid for regardless of whether this is a right or wrong ethic.

Have you looked on the Maine Coon Cat Club kitten list? They usually have LOTS of adverts from breeders on there with a variety of kittens & as long as you don't want something particular (colour, gender & show potential) that should give you lots of options. That is unless you are already in love with this boy. I worry that they are asking so much for him.


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## ellie8024

The only Maine Coons i have seen being charged at that price are the ones on the active register for breeding. The standard pet price for them are £350


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## pippa69

Thanks for your posts. I've just looked on Pet4Homes and seen the breeder advertising on there for £500 as well and it does look as if she is way more expensive than the others. I'm going to have to really sit down and lave a long hard think about this.


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## Saikou

I have never understood why some breeds should command a higher price tag than others. Surely anyone who is true hobby breeder should only be selling the kittens at a price to recoup the cost of raising the kittens, not make a huge profit. Say the cost of raising a kitten is approx £400, give or take a few £10s, anything over and above that is just profit.

I could potentially understand a slight variation in prices because of a variation in stud fees, but then I suppose the same argument could be had there. The cost of feeding a stud doesn't vary dramatically from breed to breed, maybe a slightly higher food bill for some of the much larger breeds. Their housing is the same, cost the same to heat, insure etc. Slight variation does not equate to £100s. Cost of kittens varies per breed - so then which came first high kitten prices or high stud fees.

Don't even get me started on breeds that charge 2 or 3 times their pet prices for show/breed cats. To my mind all that serves to do is attract the wrong kind of person to start breeding for all the wrong reasons..............anyway climbing down off my soap box before I get myself into trouble


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## Clare Ferris

Most I have seen them for is £425 as a pet more for breeding/show in some cases, breeder in question does charge slightly more as her cats are tested for HCM, and other things so that is her reasoning for it. I dont know average price but more common breeds generally are cheaper around £350. I would say that is over priced for a maine coon unless you are getting an exceptional show winning line and even then I dont know what people charge. If all you want is a pet then thats way to much, maybe you should ask why she charges more and is she giving you a registered pedigree that has neg parents for most importantly HCM. People can charge what they like but it should not be way over average price compared with any other registered breeder of the same breed


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## messyhearts

A lot of breeders HCM test now so that doesn't excuse the £500 tag for a pet.


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## Saikou

I've looked at the breeders site, and they don't test for HCM, infact they state why they don't. They have HCM tested cats, but those are cats they imported and the original breeders tested them.

Still doesn't explain why if all the breeder wants to is recoup outlay - ie as a hobby breeder - why one breed should cost more than another. Sorry I don't buy this "rare" excuse that is just a marketing hook.

Yes a breeder can charge what they want, but if they are doing more than recouping their costs and their intention is to make a profit then stop hiding behind the "hobby breeder" label.


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## sootisox

It seems there are a few breeders pricing their kittens this way. There are ragdoll kittens on pets4homes just now for £500.  Each to their own, but I also believe this is too much IMO.


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## Clare Ferris

Each breed has its average price there is no one set price for all. but if she is charging more than other reputable registered breeders of that breed (providing she is one ) then I would go elswhere. If she does not get what she wants then she will have to lower price. I dont know wheter breeders generally charge more for tested cats?? so who knows why she charges more, maybe trying to gain more profit probably. I think a hobby breeder is someone who breeds on a small scale and charges normal prices for their breed, some people breed on a large scale and and make a living from it hence would not class them as a hobby breeder. As for rare breeds well some will cost more same in whatever you buy cats or dogs? Generally I have found the more common the breed the cheaper it is in most circumstances. Maine coons are probably the most common semi long hair so should not be a huge price tag, there are plenty of breeders of them so just look elswhere I would say.


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## Saikou

A hobby breeder is one that doesn't make a profit. You can breed on a small scale and still make a profit if your prices are higher than your costs. As it costs the same to raise a kitten no matter what the breed anything over an above that amount and certainly the 3x or more the pet price for show/breed kittens is profit.

I would have thought that it would be in any breed as a whole's best interest to be marketed at a sensible price, making them more affordable to loving pet homes and less attractive to potential new breeders going in to it for all the wrong reasons.


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## Janee

A year ago I looked at MC kitten prices. Most breeders don't state on their websites what the prices of kittens are (I understand why not but it means that Joe average hasn't a clue).

One did: their price was £400. A well known non hobby breeder was charging £650 - I emailed and asked.


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## Kalipha

I work full time. In addition to this, I make birthday cards and sell them to friends and family. After materials, I make about 50p a card. 'Earns' me about a tenner a month. Mostly, though, I do it because I enjoy it and people like my cards better than shop ones - more personal. Does my 50p per card profit make that a business, rather than a hobby? If it does it's the crappiest business ever, I'm probably making about £2 an hour. Similarly, even if you made £100 profit per kitten (good luck with that!) with all the time, effort, worry and love that goes into raising kittens, even that would be such a laughably pennies-per-hour 'profit' it's still nothing. 

Making a tiny profit does not make a thing a business. Even charging £500 a kitten a person still won't be making enough to class as any kind of business if they're doing it responsibly rather than just racking their queens up in cages for 2-3 litters a year. All it takes is for one birth to go horribly wrong, or for you to have a problem with your lines and need to buy in new queens, and you're 'in the red' again. Not that I predict making a dime, but I really don't understand the backlash at the very hint or concept of a person coming out of a year's litters a bit up.

Aside from my own statement of confusion - yes that seems rather above the 'market average' as it were. Check out the breed club, there's plenty there who'd sell you an MC for less, particularly if he's purely as a pet and you're not concerned about show quality.


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## Saikou

Kalipha said:


> Even charging £500 a kitten a person still won't be making enough to class as any kind of business if they're doing it responsibly rather than just racking their queens up in cages for 2-3 litters a year.


So how do you feel about people charging £1200 for a kitten from the same litter as a pet kitten going from £500. Bit more than a tiny profit in that wouldn't you say!!


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## Kalipha

Aaaah, the massive-markup-on-active-cats discussion. Yeah, as it happens I think it's out of line. Sorta £100-200 mark up on active I can understand - when I got my girl, her breeders genuinely did put more time and effort into her than the pet quality kittens, having her inspected by two judges and so on.

That's a different kettle of fish though. It was more that people seem to react very badly sometimes to even the implication that a person might be charging more for a kitten than it absolutely cost to raise it, as if making any money on all the joyful stress and sleepless nights makes a person a monster. Seems a little harsh.


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## Clare Ferris

I dont think you can ever compare two breeders with different breeds together. Each will have different out lays depending on how much they purchased their breeding cats for, registration of cats/kittens, if the breed has to be imported, the lines they come from, tests carried out, showing, size of litter, vet bills etc some may have a litter and never have problems others may be unlucky and have alot of problems. I suppose even in the same breed there will be slight differences depending on how the breeder operates and what their outlays are.

As Kalipha pointed out alot of time and effort goes into rearing kittens properly not everyone has cats stacked up with kittens in cages, never handles or spends time with them etc. I know ALL of my spare time was spent with my kittens. Yes there is not much difference between breeds for feeding etc but there is more to breeding than just paying for food etc. Although I guess it all depends on what you feed your cats etc. Some breeders may choose to offer more with their kittens which will then up the outlay by the breeder, tests of breeding cats etc, every breed is different hence prices will be different.

Granted if someone is churning them out and does not do all the stuff a responsible breeder does then you could say they are making a HUGE profit!

Some times you may be up alittle and the next you may be down, goes with the territory, any money that may be made should go back into the breeding program so I dont think you can really say people are making a profit if you dont know what goes into the breeding program for that breed. As for a more established breed like a maine coon then £500 for a pet does seem above average, but their are other breeds that do cost this and more. I spent over £3000 before I had even started on my three cats and one stud fee and I dont think I will be recouping that anytime soon and that does not count the £80 per cat to enter a show plus travel which is nearly always miles away. Plus costs of reg, tests, rearing kittens, feeding etc. The problems I had would have cost me a great deal in vets bills if I had been a paying client, so I guess that is an upside to working in a vets.
I hate to think what the foundation breeders spent on the numerous cats they imported thousands upon thousands I imagine with a newer breed.

I dont think it unreasonable to charge more for a show/breeding cat as alot of money and effort has gone into producing cats of the required standard, if I wanted a good line then I would expect to pay more compared to buying a bog standard pedigree of not show/breed quality. I know my girls dad to get him over from Russia and all his titles he has from showing the past three yrs, the breeder has spent over £10,000 on him. Thats a huge expense, so I certainly did not mind paying £800 for a daughter from him.

I know alot of breeders do this, maybe not all see it like that but it is down to the individual at the end of the day. If it where a business I dont think reputable breeders would be getting a very good hourly rate if you were comparing it to any other business.
I dont think you can just compare breed prices and say well that breed for a pet is £200 more expensive so they must be making a huge profit, it just does not work like that when you do everything properly. As for the mark up on active cats well unless someone sells alot for breeding I doubt again they are making much of a profit


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## Saikou

Nobody says its not an expensive hobby - it is, if you do it properly - but as a hobby, it shouldn't be all about making back everything you spend!!!! Definition of a hobby



> An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and *engaged in primarily for pleasure*


Rewards come back in other ways other than financially. If a breeders primary goal is recouping all outlays and then some, then they are not breeding for the same reasons as a true hobby breeder. There is nothing wrong with their motivation, but they shouldn't hide behind the hobby breeder label.

I am not sure why keeping cats in cages should work out cheaper. Yes they don't get to reek their revenge on your home, but I assume they still require feeding, watering, litter trays etc. Nor why a breeder should expect to be able to pass on the cost of health testing to a kitten buyer. Surely a kitten buyer has the right to expect a healthy kitten no matter what, not pay extra for the proof of that good health.

Equally if a breeder decides to import why that cost should be passed on to any kitten buyer. Its their choice to import for whatever reason and again they are only going through that process to benefit themselves. If the breeder looks at that as outlay to be recouped then thats a business.

A show or breed quality kitten costs no more to raise than a pet kitten, so there is never any excuse for a premium of 2 or 3x the pet price.


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Nobody says its not an expensive hobby - it is, if you do it properly - but as a hobby, it shouldn't be all about making back everything you spend!!!! Definition of a hobby
> 
> Rewards come back in other ways other than financially. If a breeders primary goal is recouping all outlays and then some, then they are not breeding for the same reasons as a true hobby breeder. There is nothing wrong with their motivation, but they shouldn't hide behind the hobby breeder label.
> 
> I am not sure why keeping cats in cages should work out cheaper. Yes they don't get to reek their revenge on your home, but I assume they still require feeding, watering, litter trays etc. Nor why a breeder should expect to be able to pass on the cost of health testing to a kitten buyer. Surely a kitten buyer has the right to expect a healthy kitten no matter what, not pay extra for the proof of that good health.
> 
> Equally if a breeder decides to import why that cost should be passed on to any kitten buyer. Its their choice to import for whatever reason and again they are only going through that process to benefit themselves. If the breeder looks at that as outlay to be recouped then thats a business.
> 
> A show or breed quality kitten costs no more to raise than a pet kitten, so there is never any excuse for a premium of 2 or 3x the pet price.


well I disagree there with most of that yes rearing a kitten is the same but you cannot compare every breed and say they should all be x amount???
Yes they do have the right to expect a healthy kitten no matter whta but we all know that is most definately not the case with some breeders.

It is not the breeders choice to import entirely if the gene pool is limited in a new breed or not even present in the U.K
Maybe we should all breed U.K established breeds then and not have to worry about bringing in fresh blood if all we care about is producing kittens and breeding inbreds, because thats what would happen if no one ever bought in new cats regardless of breed. Maybe some people have no choice seen as it is so difficult to buy a stud cat from someone here.

A hobby is something you should enjoy and I do very much despite the heartache it brings. I think most breeders would like to recoup the costs atleast and maybe make something that then goes back into the breed. Not everyone is rich with endless pots of money, why should that stop them breeding and make them a unscrupulous breeder which is what I feel you are trying to imply here, correct me if I am wrong. I dont see any good breeder making thousands each year and driving round in a posh car and living in a posh house.
If charging more for pet/show was unreasonable then why does it happen and why do people pay it?
I paid it in the hope I was getting a excellent breed/show cat to help further my breeding of show quality cats. Most people who want to show aswell when they choose a breeding cat look for titled cats. When I enquired about breeding cats I was told more by every single person I spoke to so certainly not unusual.
What I meant about keeping cats in cages was that some may have several litters at any time stacked up in cages whereas they may not be able to have as many at a given time if they were all running loose in the home, but I guess some would and would not care about the potential risks of spread of disease etc.
So what would you class a person who breeds for the love of the breed but also wants to recoup cost ideally so they are not constantly out of pocket? I would hope that most pet owners would appreciate the fact that they are buying cats from tested parents as this can go in the kittens favour in preventing hereditary disease later in life, that for me makes the difference between buying a cheap ped with no testing than paying alittle more in the knowledge that you kitten is neg for a certain disease. It all benefits the cat and owner in the long run and the breed.


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> well I disagree there with most of that yes rearing a kitten is the same but you cannot compare every breed and say they should all be x amount???


Why not ? They are all the same underneath their different exterior ! What are you trying to say, bigger boned cats should cost more because the kitten buyer is getting more cat for their money -price per kg maybe  or long hairs should cost more than shorthairs  They all get fed the same "cat food". Yes some people choose to feed their kittens a healthy more expensive diet where as others prefer a cheaper dry convenience approach - but again that comes down to pride in your kittens and ensuring they get the best start possible



Clare Ferris said:


> Yes they do have the right to expect a healthy kitten no matter whta but we all know that is most definately not the case with some breeders.


What has that statement got to do with price!!



Clare Ferris said:


> It is not the breeders choice to import entirely if the gene pool is limited in a new breed or not even present in the U.K
> Maybe we should all breed U.K established breeds then and not have to worry about bringing in fresh blood if all we care about is producing kittens and breeding inbreds, because thats what would happen if no one ever bought in new cats regardless of breed. Maybe some people have no choice seen as it is so difficult to buy a stud cat from someone here.


It is personal choice, no one is forcing them to choose that particular breed. If a breed is not native to the UK there could be several strong arguments for not bringing them into this country. If it is to assist the preservation of a dying breed, then the lovers of that breed in the cat's native country shouldn't be charging huge amounts of money to those trying to help them out.

Shame on the breeders of a new breed who are restricting the gene pool by refusing to allow cats to go active just to protect their own interests, which with male cats that definitely is the case!!! Again hardly the "just doing it for the love of the breed as an enjoyable hobby"



Clare Ferris said:


> A hobby is something you should enjoy and I do very much despite the heartache it brings. I think most breeders would like to recoup the costs atleast and maybe make something that then goes back into the breed. Not everyone is rich with endless pots of money, why should that stop them breeding and make them a unscrupulous breeder which is what I feel you are trying to imply here, correct me if I am wrong. I dont see any good breeder making thousands each year and driving round in a posh car and living in a posh house.


You go from one extreme to the other, no one is going to get rich out of breeding cats to the point of buying houses and cars, but that does not mean the potential is not there to make a reasonable profit if you sell your kittens for silly prices.



Clare Ferris said:


> If charging more for pet/show was unreasonable then why does it happen and why do people pay it?


Because they are mugs, because they think they can charge the same - proves my point that charging huge premiums for breeding cats attract the wrong type of breeders, who just see the cats earning potential!!



Clare Ferris said:


> I paid it in the hope I was getting a excellent breed/show cat to help further my breeding of show quality cats. Most people who want to show aswell when they choose a breeding cat look for titled cats. When I enquired about breeding cats I was told more by every single person I spoke to so certainly not unusual.


Then those people have not done enough research because if they had, then they would understand that its not the number of titled cats in a pedigree - GrCh to GrCh does not guarantee a litter of GrChs. Pet owners do not care how many titled cats there are in a pedigree.



Clare Ferris said:


> So what would you class a person who breeds for the love of the breed but also wants to recoup cost ideally so they are not constantly out of pocket?


We are not discussing recouping costs we are discussing charging more to a greater or lesser degree than the actual cost of raising that kitten. Any true hobby breeder is prepared to make the initial outlay for buying in their breeding cats, thats why its an expensive hobby. A true hobby breeder would not be thinking that queen 1 cost them £x and they should make that back in x no of litters.



Clare Ferris said:


> I would hope that most pet owners would appreciate the fact that they are buying cats from tested parents as this can go in the kittens favour in preventing hereditary disease later in life, that for me makes the difference between buying a cheap ped with no testing than paying alittle more in the knowledge that you kitten is neg for a certain disease. It all benefits the cat and owner in the long run and the breed.


If your breed has a potential health problem its your responsibility to ensure that you are breeding with healthy cats and producing healthy kittens. You have already agreed a healthy kitten is what a kitten buyer has the right to expect, so why should they be charged more for that. Its not their problem that breeders have created lines with hereditary issues that need to be weeded out.


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Why not ? They are all the same underneath their different exterior ! What are you trying to say, bigger boned cats should cost more because the kitten buyer is getting more cat for their money -price per kg maybe  or long hairs should cost more than shorthairs  They all get fed the same "cat food". Yes some people choose to feed their kittens a healthy more expensive diet where as others prefer a cheaper dry convenience approach - but again that comes down to pride in your kittens and ensuring they get the best start possible
> 
> What has that statement got to do with price!!
> 
> It is personal choice, no one is forcing them to choose that particular breed. If a breed is not native to the UK there could be several strong arguments for not bringing them into this country. If it is to assist the preservation of a dying breed, then the lovers of that breed in the cat's native country shouldn't be charging huge amounts of money to those trying to help them out.
> 
> Shame on the breeders of a new breed who are restricting the gene pool by refusing to allow cats to go active just to protect their own interests, which with male cats that definitely is the case!!! Again hardly the "just doing it for the love of the breed as an enjoyable hobby"
> 
> You go from one extreme to the other, no one is going to get rich out of breeding cats to the point of buying houses and cars, but that does not mean the potential is not there to make a reasonable profit if you sell your kittens for silly prices.
> 
> Because they are mugs, because they think they can charge the same - proves my point that charging huge premiums for breeding cats attract the wrong type of breeders, who just see the cats earning potential!!
> 
> Then those people have not done enough research because if they had, then they would understand that its not the number of titled cats in a pedigree - GrCh to GrCh does not guarantee a litter of GrChs. Pet owners do not care how many titled cats there are in a pedigree.
> 
> We are not discussing recouping costs we are discussing charging more to a greater or lesser degree than the actual cost of raising that kitten. Any true hobby breeder is prepared to make the initial outlay for buying in their breeding cats, thats why its an expensive hobby. A true hobby breeder would not be thinking that queen 1 cost them £x and they should make that back in x no of litters.
> 
> If your breed has a potential health problem its your responsibility to ensure that you are breeding with healthy cats and producing healthy kittens. You have already agreed a healthy kitten is what a kitten buyer has the right to expect, so why should they be charged more for that. Its not their problem that breeders have created lines with hereditary issues that need to be weeded out.


Cost of a breed varies For the reasons I have explained already??? nothing to do with size or coat length. So you are saying people who dont feed raw have no pride in their kittens then because they choose a dry food?
Again disagree.
well how many breeds are truely native to the U.K and I mean originated here, Siamese certainly were not native here and so many other breeds come to think of it. People can choose what they like and should not be governed by what is common here or not.
I dont think responsible breeders charge silly prices just NORMAL for their breed as I have said many a time, a pet owner will be charged a pet price but anyone wanting to breed will be charged more and this depends from what I can see on what you get and the breed. If people want to sell breeding cats for the same as pet then thats their choice entirely upto them, I would have loved not having to pay an extra £300 but IF I had not then the only way I could have bred was by going against a written contract and buying a pet and breeding anyway? not very ethical is it?

No it is not their problem if the breed has issues I am merely trying to point out why some breeders seem to charge more in comparison to cheaper breeders, if £500 is the going rate for the breed then you can explain why a responsible breeder charges that, otherwise they could go to someone else who breeds irresponsibly and charges less and has nothing done and I mean a byb not breeders with other breeds that cost less.
The thread is in relation to a maine coon and I have said it seems alot for that breed as a pet but if talking generally then it is not an usual price within certain breeds and certainly not the most expensive!

Maybe some other breeders could explain why newer/rarer breeds cost more and all cat breeds are not the same price as my reasons are obviously not good enough?

So doesn't every breeder charge more than what it costs to raise a litter, if you look at your foreign breeds dont they generally have big litters? so I have heard you may charge £300 but if you have 7 kittens then technically you are making more than someone with a different breed charging £500 with 3 kittens, average litter of 4 kittens selling at £350 each = £1400 does it cost the average breeder that much in total for rearing one litter? So are we all not guilty of making money if you take those values at face value and do not consider anything else?

I do feel as though you are implying that someone who hopes to recoup costs by charging a *normal *price for their breed is wrong and irresponsible and should only sell for what it costs them to raise the kitten when infact If you count all the love, time and devotion that goes into a kitten if bred properly, then if people wanting to recoup all their costs were there sole motivation surely they should be charging for this aswell...which would make a very expensive kitty indeed as you cant put a price tag on these things. It is not wrong for someone to hope to break even and does not make them greedy or byb as long as they dont charge over the odds for their breed not compared to other breeds. People also have a choice when purchasing a kitten as too what breed they want, they dont need to choose a breed that may cost alittle more but if they do choose that breed for whatever reason then that is down to them and if they are prepared to pay it does that also make them a mug who is being ripped off!

We are talking on this thread about over charging within a given breed here arent we??


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## Kalipha

Before this all goes a bit supernova, I'd just like to repeat a quote with the bold in a different place.



> An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in *primarily* for pleasure


Not wanting to be at a storming loss constantly does not make someone an irresponsible breeder, or their breeding into a kitten farm. Charging enough for kittens to maybe make back a little of what you spent on your queen, or on the massive cost of importing, or counting health testing as 'part of the cost of raising a kitten' and pricing accordingly, does not make a person a money-grabbing capitalist.

Cat breeding would only fall outside the definition you posted if you ran it as a business, not working at all and using kitten sales to pay your mortgage.


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## lizward

Kalipha said:


> Cat breeding would only fall outside the definition you posted if you ran it as a business, not working at all and using kitten sales to pay your mortgage.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Kalipha

lizward said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


Hey, I didn't say it could actually be DONE


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## lorilu

go to a breed specific rescue instead and give a loving home to a kitty that really needs one.


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> Cost of a breed varies For the reasons I have explained already??? nothing to do with size or coat length.


Actually you haven't explained anything other than, everyone else does it so thats OK and vagaries about health testing, which you then admit shouldn't be passed on to the buyer



Clare Ferris said:


> well how many breeds are truely native to the U.K and I mean originated here, Siamese certainly were not native here and so many other breeds come to think of it. People can choose what they like and should not be governed by what is common here or not.


Siamese were introduced to this country well over 100 years ago. As you are very keen on citing over population TODAY as a reason for other people not to breed, surely it goes against your own ethics to add to that population by importing a new breed TODAY that is well established in its own country and other countries like the US. There is certainly an argument for importing new breeds if they are in danger of dying out in their own country, but not either a manufactured new breed or a breed well established else where. Definitely a case of do as you say rather than do as you do!!



Clare Ferris said:


> I dont think responsible breeders charge silly prices just NORMAL for their breed


In some breeds silly prices and NORMAL for a breed are not mutually exclusive!!! Charging silly prices as a NORM gets out of hand always to the detriment of the breed  never the breeders of that breed. After all its the breeder that stands to gain from the silly NORMAL prices not the cat.



Clare Ferris said:


> as I have said many a time, a pet owner will be charged a pet price but anyone wanting to breed will be charged more and this depends from what I can see on what you get and the breed.


WHY!!!! That show/breed kitten did not cost any more to raise that a pet kitten. As I have said many a time, that practice does the breed as a whole no favours as all it serves to do is attract people who picked that breed not because they love the breed but because they can see them being a nice little earner. They get charged a premium, which they pay thinking thats OK I can charge the same and make my money back  and so it goes on.



Clare Ferris said:


> No it is not their problem if the breed has issues


Whose problem are hereditary heath issues then ??  the kitten buyers ?? of course the breeders within that breed are responsible.



Clare Ferris said:


> So doesn't every breeder charge more than what it costs to raise a litter, if you look at your foreign breeds dont they generally have big litters? so I have heard you may charge £300 but if you have 7 kittens then technically you are making more than someone with a different breed charging £500 with 3 kittens, average litter of 4 kittens selling at £350 each = £1400 does it cost the average breeder that much in total for rearing one litter? So are we all not guilty of making money if you take those values at face value and do not consider anything else?


This analogy makes no sense, if you are charging per kitten the cost of raising that kitten and nothing else, how does that equate to profit because you have more kittens in the litter. Does a litter of 7 cost the same to feed as a litter of 3, do they use the same amount of litter, generate the same amount of washing cost the same to register, vaccinate, worm etc!!!! In a large litter you are more likely to encounter issues with smaller weaker kittens. Just because the end total sales is greater how in the world does that equate to profit!! Or is this back to the whole rareness of exclusivity that gets bandied about in connection with some breeds  which at the end of the day is just another marketing hook and an excuse for keeping a NORMAL price for the breed artificially high!! Or making it NORMAL to charge up to 3x or more pet price for show/breed cats. It certainly smacks of my breed is more exclusive than yours because they only have 2 or 3 kittens in a litter where as yours mass produce litters of 6 or more  Sorry but that is insane!!!



Clare Ferris said:


> I do feel as though you are implying that someone who hopes to recoup costs by charging a *normal *price for their breed is wrong and irresponsible and should only sell for what it costs them to raise the kitten when infact If you count all the love, time and devotion that goes into a kitten if bred properly, then if people wanting to recoup all their costs were there sole motivation surely they should be charging for this aswell...which would make a very expensive kitty indeed as you cant put a price tag on these things. It is not wrong for someone to hope to break even and does not make them greedy or byb as long as they dont charge over the odds for their breed not compared to other breeds. People also have a choice when purchasing a kitten as too what breed they want, they dont need to choose a breed that may cost alittle more but if they do choose that breed for whatever reason then that is down to them and if they are prepared to pay it does that also make them a mug who is being ripped off!


I think it is clear that you do not understand either


 What being a true hobby breeder means, nor
 the difference between recouping the cost of raising a kitten and making a profit

Being a true hobby breeder has nothing to do with numbers of litters, queens, studs. Just because the kittens are born in a bedroom in a private home does not make you a hobby breeder. If you went into this looking to recoup ALL your costs including the outlay for queens, emotional commitment, your time in raising kittens etc then its not a hobby, its a business!! Certainly not a labour of love, where your enjoyment comes from keeping a breed you love, where those adult cats are family pets first and foremost and not just valuable assets in a breeding program only useful whilst they are entire, planning, having and nurturing young of that breed because you enjoy that process, and are not counting down the days until they are out the door and you have money in your bank account!!. To my mind a hobby breeder will view kitten sales as a necessary evil to enable them to continue with their hobby, not as the end game marketable product!! Nothing wrong with the latter as I have said before, not for me, but those breeders should not be terming themselves hobby breeders because they are not!!! Although it does benefit them to describe themselves as such!!!

The original poster asked



pippa69 said:


> Can anyone tell me why certain breeds of cats are sold for more than others or is it just up to the individual breeders on what they charge? Do bigger cats cost more to raise, are we paying more because we are getting a bigger breed?


If all kittens cost the same to raise  which I have seen nothing on this thread to say they don't then why do some breeds think they can charge more than others, what is their justification for that. Referring to other breeds as "cheaper breeds" is actually very telling, and infers inferiority, maybe thats the reason premium prices are charged to fool the buying public into thinking they are getting something a cut above the rest, which clearly is not the case.


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## Clare Ferris

to me a hobby breeder is someone who does it outside their normal job as you have said for the love of it, they dont have loads of cats and mass produce kittens, you may think that someone who breeds a particular breed costing more than another is making money but that person does not really know what goes into getting hold of these cats in the first place. Being a new breed all cats where imported at the beginning which was only 8 yrs ago for sibbys and are still being imported to widen the gene pool, A breed that has been established a long time that is popular should have a large enough gene pool not to have to resort to importing cats as the norm. If people did not import then that would be of detriment to the health and development of the breed in this country, there just simply are not enough cats here yet to be able to stick within the U.K
I dont for one second think I am going to be making enough money to pay the mortage just hope to recoup my costs so that I can afford to carry on doing it, is that so wrong? I dont have endless pots of money just like any other normal working person doesn't

If I am wanting to make money then how long will it take me to make back £7000 on the purchase of my three girls and future import stud when I only have 3 litters a year of which are generally small as they dont have huge litters? and thats not including any further cats I may import or keep from my breeding, the care costs and everything else that goes into it. if it was just about money and churning out cats then I could get a boy over here albeit not very good show quality one but who would do the job of producing kittens, but I have decided to import so I get a boy that is of show standard as I want my kittens to hopefully be show quality or thats the plan. 

I think people may charge more for show/breeding because they have had to pay over the odds for good lines otherwise they are not going to have much hope of producing good cats if the parents are not of the required standard. A new breed takes along time to establish and produce cats of consistent type etc. 
So if we should only breed cats that are established and not add to the over population problem then alot of people would miss out on owning these cats in the U.K. Just because a breed is established in its native country or America does not make them accessable to people in the U.K. As I have said the costs of getting certain breeds established over here is the hard part and the cost involved, you may think that it should not make a difference to the overall price of a kitten and thats your opinion but it does and I would say nearly every new breed I know of is of a higher price for this reason not the cost of rearing alitter so much. I think it very hypocritical to dictate what people should be breeding and someone wanting to get a new breed established is some how unethical by doing so and adding to the over population problem What gives anyone the right to say that is beyound me and offensive imo!

If you are a hobby breeder and using that term yourself then technically from what you say you should be giving your kittens away not charging a few hundred, as you should not be worrying about recouping your costs, but you dont so are you not also guilty of recouping your costs/making money? Once again a hobby breeder to me is someone who breeds in their spare time for fun and maybe makes alittle to put back into improving their cats/showing etc, they certainly dont make a living out of it. I do know some dog breeders with kennels who breed on a large scale, dont work or pay tax and their sole income comes from breeding so that to me is not a hobby breeder but a business, I am not a business type breeder, I have my main job and it is not breeding cats this is done in my own time as a hobby, the price has nothing to do with it as I am not making any significant money from it despite what others may think
Oh and for the record my cats are family pets and I did not think about making money from breeding I love cats and take great pride in helping raise healthy, well socialised pets and if I get to produce a show winner then brilliant if not then I will carry on doing what I am doing and enjoying it.


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## Saikou

I can't be bothered to read everything because you never seem to grasp anything, but as I have already pointed out.........hobby breeders do not just see their breeding cats as walking wombs/sperm banks that represent set up costs for their breeding business. They are family pets and as such do not need to have their "cost" recouped as a business outlay. If you do think like that fair enough, but don't describe yourself as a hobby breeder!!


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I can't be bothered to read everything because you never seem to grasp anything, but as I have already pointed out.........hobby breeders do not just see their breeding cats as walking wombs/sperm banks that represent set up costs for their breeding business. They are family pets and as such do not need to have their "cost" recouped as a business outlay. If you do think like that fair enough, but don't describe yourself as a hobby breeder!!


I grasp exactly what you are trying to imply and I dont agree with it thats all...A business is something that makes a good profit is it not? if all a business does is cover its costs then they would be bankrupt in no time. I dont solely worry about my costs and making money I am merely saying it would be nice to but I am well aware it does not always work like that. I dont see my cats as money making machines, you asked why certain breeds cost more and I am merely trying to explain why I think certain breeds are more expensive.
I do it as a hobby in my own time, dont make a living out of it, my cats live at home as pets not in a cattery, I breed responsibly and any money I may make will go back into my breeding, so what does that make me then if not a hobby breeder, just intrigued as to what I should call myself instead


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## Kalipha

Lily is first and foremost my pet. But - and here's the rub - I would never pay what I paid for her purely as a pet. She is lovely, and absolute gem and I adore her, but she is not 'better' than a moggie from a rescue. So yes, I see the difference in price between her and an equally lovely moggie as a 'cost of my hobby', where as, for instance, her food doesn't, cause I would pay the same for a pet (And do. Thanks, Jasper, you fat little bugger) and if potential owners want the benefit of your effort and outlay, I don't get why you're so rabid at the idea they should contribute to this outlay in kitten prices.

Ending up a hundred, or even more, up at the end of a year when you've been lucky enough to have nothing go wrong with your litters does not stop a thing being a hobby. Hoping for it, does not stop it being a hobby. If you were trying to run it as a business you'd be a laughing stock - hundreds of hours a year for a tiny profit and a high chance of none or even a massive loss if it all goes wrong. What kind of business is that? I'll tell you want kind. A non-existent one. Because it's still *a hobby*. You could no more call it a business than my earlier card making example. Your own quote defines it as something done *primarily* for pleasure, and that remains the case.

So, you think the price of the queen is an immoral thing to try to recoup, that wanting ideally to balance that cost stops it being a hobby. Where's that end? Oh, you shouldn't want to charge enough to cover the cost of emergency surgery, that cat is your pet, any treatment she needs because of having kittens isn't the fault of the people who want the kittens she produces, why should they pay that? While those kittens are in your house you are getting the pleasure of them, they are your pets, you shouldn't want to get back the money for feeding them and providing them with litter, the joy of their presence should pay for that. You worm and deflea them to keep your own house clean, the new owners didn't ask you to do that, you can't expect them to support you. And vaccinating them is just being a responsible owner!

Give all your kittens away for free! We're in this for the love, right? We're not interested in making long-suffering potential owners recoup some of the massive definite cost and even more massive potential cost of producing kittens. We should just be happy that our babies are going to happy homes and accept every penny spent as the cost of a hobby.

...

Get off your soap box and stop drawing lines in the sand as to what specific costs a person outlays purely for the purpose of their breeding program _you_ feel are 'appropriate' before the person is seemingly branded a 'business' and viewing their pets as 'walking wombs/sperm banks'.


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## Saikou

I am assuming you are directing you diatribe at me. I will remain on my soap box  as just as you are allowed to flap your gums so am I - I do think it is immoral as you term it to charge more than it costs to raise a kitten especially the ridiculously high premiums charged by some for a breeding cat or a show cat and still refer to yourself as a hobby breeder.

If thats the norm in your breed then someone needs to start looking at that practice. There is no justification for that IF the breeder is a hobby breeder and just seeking to recoup costs of raising that kitten. IF you hadn't have paid that premium and been "happy" to do so, you wouldn't be so up in arms about recouping that cost. You sell your breeding cats at a premium and so the practice goes on!!! Charging up to 3x a pet price or more in some instance is unethical as a hobby breeder and DOES NOTHING to benefit the breed in question - which apparently is supposed to be ALL breeders primary concern.

With breeding under scrutiny for many reasons, what message do you think it sends out seeing cats advertised for £1200 -£1700 wake up and smell the coffee!!!!

Look at the bengal breed and speak to the responsible breeders within that breed who are desperately trying to buck the trend and stop a breed they love being ruined by people getting into the breed purely for profit. These are NOT just bybs they have registered prefixes - all recouping the premium prices they were charged by selling everying they can, REGARDLESS of suitability for breeding to like minded individuals who do the same. All those cats who would not be chosen for breeding by responsible breeders because of type faults, as they are registered are effective in the gene pool for the breed and dragging down and away from the path responsible breeders want to take it - can you not understand that 

Maybe as this country gets more and more litigious following the trend of the US, breeders charging those ridiculous prices for cats for show/breed when in reality they can offer no guarantee that either will fulfill that role, will find themselves sued for recompense making the whole practice less appealing. Or if the government decide that every breeder is making similar profits and counts everyone as running a business. Would you really want that extra hassle - even if you are convinced you do not make a penny!! I am sure there will be breeders who don't give a stuff and will continue to make hay whilst the sun shines, ruining for the rest of us.


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## Miss.PuddyCat

Saikuo - This question is for you  I havent replied to my other thread yet but since researching the Sphynx breed I have heard of numerous prices from other owners and adverts. ranging from 900 to 2000 $ so do you think this is over priced by the breeders? I'll admit I'm wary of spending that kind of money with a breed apparently riddled with HCM.


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## Saikou

If its above the price of most breeds then yes. Not sure what would be considered a reasonable price where you are. Most sphynx over here are sold at a premium though, I have heard £2000 quoted for a breeding queen, which is outrageous.


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## Miss.PuddyCat

Saikou said:


> If its above the price of most breeds then yes. Not sure what would be considered a reasonable price where you are. Most sphynx over here are sold at a premium though, I have heard £2000 quoted for a breeding queen, which is outrageous.


For most breeds I have seen them up to 500$ which honestly with all health testing done and if I was happy with the care of the cats and kittens I wouldnt have a problem paying.

The prices for 900 to 2000 were from Canadain owners and adverts. I feel bad saying I wont pay that much  but to me thats alot of money lol.


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## Saikou

They probably won't like you asking but have you asked why they cost so much more than other breeds? If they are charging up to 4x more than other breeds they ought to be able to justify why.


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## Miss.PuddyCat

Saikou said:


> They probably won't like you asking but have you asked why they cost so much more than other breeds? If they are charging up to 4x more than other breeds they ought to be able to justify why.


Ill just have to sum up the courage to come out and ask them  Thanks for your input


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## lorilu

hobby breeder=back yard breeder.

profit breeder= kitten (or puppy) mill 

both feed the shelters and rescues so there will never be any shortage of shelter and rescue cats. Might as well just get your cat at a shelter or rescue in the first place, save some money and save a life at the same time, and don't put money into the pockets of the BYB and mills.


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## Miss.PuddyCat

lorilu said:


> hobby breeder=back yard breeder.
> 
> profit breeder= kitten (or puppy) mill
> 
> both feed the shelters and rescues so there will never be any shortage of shelter and rescue cats. Might as well just get your cat at a shelter or rescue in the first place, save some money and save a life at the same time, and don't put money into the pockets of the BYB and mills.


I would be happy to privatly adopt or rehome a future cat 

Heres a sphynx ad for near me, doesnt mention anything about Hcm testing

Sphynx Kittens - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto

I think I will email them asking why they charge so much.

This guys is handsome

Free Male Orange Tabby - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto


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## Saikou

lorilu said:


> hobby breeder=back yard breeder.
> 
> profit breeder= kitten (or puppy) mill
> 
> both feed the shelters and rescues so there will never be any shortage of shelter and rescue cats. Might as well just get your cat at a shelter or rescue in the first place, save some money and save a life at the same time, and don't put money into the pockets of the BYB and mills.



Do you have children? If you do, I hope you adopted them, loads of kids awaiting adoption, so very unfair for people to keep having their own


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## Saikou

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Heres a sphynx ad for near me, doesnt mention anything about Hcm testing
> 
> Sphynx Kittens - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto
> 
> I think I will email them asking why they charge so much.


I see he offers repayment plans  At those prices it could be the only way he can sell them.



Miss.PuddyCat said:


> This guys is handsome
> 
> Free Male Orange Tabby - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto


He is very handsome, and I hope he ends up with some who appreciates him and truely loves him and doesn't just discard him because they prefer the puppy. You have to wonder why if they think its stressing him out why they didn't rehome the puppy instead, he was there first their duty of responsibility lay with him first and foremost.


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## lorilu

Saikou said:


> Do you have children? If you do, I hope you adopted them, loads of kids awaiting adoption, so very unfair for people to keep having their own


Children and animals are not the same things.

Do children get dumped out the door to breed indiscriminately? Do children form feral colonies? Are children bred in unspeakable conditions to be sold at pet stores or to unwary purchasers who think they must have a pure bred animal?

Are children bred back to back popping out litters of five or six or seven other children at a time?

Meaning no disrespect, but it is a ridiculous comparison.

And, to answer your question, as I was "spayed" at the age of 27, yes I would have adopted, if I chose to have children. And it you think it is easy to adopt a child, you are sadly misinformed.


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## Miss.PuddyCat

Saikou said:


> I see he offers repayment plans  At those prices it could be the only way he can sell them.
> 
> He is very handsome, and I hope he ends up with some who appreciates him and truely loves him and doesn't just discard him because they prefer the puppy. You have to wonder why if they think its stressing him out why they didn't rehome the puppy instead, he was there first their duty of responsibility lay with him first and foremost.


That would be the only way I could pay if I didnt have it all at once from savings.

He reminds me of my moms old cat Moe. Yeh that is sad. I mean they could make a room for him so he has time away from the pup or give him places to climb to get time away.


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## Saikou

It comes down to the same thing, freedom of choice. Not everyone wants a moggie or a crossbred adult, they want a specific type pedigree kitten where they can guarantee that kittens back ground.

A responsible breeder will always do their level best to ensure that a kitten they breed does not end up in rescue and is either brought back the them or they help in finding a new home.

You should really carry out a little more research before you take to making sweeping incorrect generalisations on a topic you obviously have very little knowledge of!! You may well have met in your time a few unscrupulous pedigree breeders - who hasn't!!! But how ignorant to tar everyone with the same brush 

Animals/children living beings for whom someone is responsible for the entirity of their life.


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## ellie8024

i would also say lorilu that its not very easy to adopt the right cat either and some people have no option but to go to a breeder


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## xxSaffronxx

lorilu said:


> hobby breeder=back yard breeder.
> 
> profit breeder= kitten (or puppy) mill


I wasnt going to post but I am very offended by your statement and find it upsetting. 
In your view, breeders should not be breeding at all, is that right?

What about breeders that do everything right by their cats and are not BYBs and care for their cats greatly and regard them as part of their family?
I class myself as a hobby breeder, as I am certainly not a profit breeder. So does that mean that I dont care for my cats properly?


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## lorilu

Saikou said:


> It comes down to the same thing, freedom of choice. Not everyone wants a moggie or a crossbred adult, they want a specific type pedigree kitten where they can guarantee that kittens back ground.
> 
> *A responsible breeder will always do their level best to ensure that a kitten they breed does not end up in rescue and is either bought back the them or they help in finding a new home.*
> 
> You should really carry out a little more research before you take to making sweeping incorrect generalisations on a topic you obviously have very little knowledge of!! You may well have met in your time a few unscrupulous pedigree breeders - who hasn't!!! But how ignorant to tar everyone with the same brush
> 
> Animals/children living beings for whom someone is responsible for the entirity of their life.


of course a *responsible breeder* will. I am talking about BYB and mills. Purchasing from either of these is not going to give you a guarantee of anything.

You don't know me well enough to comment on my *knowledge* of anything, really. 

And my *opinion* is that "hobby breeders" are BYB and "profit breeders" are mills.

And yes, of course animals and children are both living beings who someone should be responsible for. Who said they aren't? the problem is, animals are much more often treated like commodities or disposable objects than human children.

Especially by BYB and mills. And since BYB and mills feed the shelters, anyone wanting a pure bred can usually find one at a shelter or rescue, if they look hard enough.


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## Saikou

Define your definition of hobby breeder and why its mutually exclusive of being a responsible breeder.


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## Saikou

xxSaffronxx said:


> I wasnt going to post but I am very offended by your statement and find it upsetting.


That is probably the intention. Swan in, make wild accusations and deflect the conversation at hand, focusing attention on them.


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## xxSaffronxx

lorilu said:


> of course a *responsible breeder* will. I am talking about BYB and mills. Purchasing from either of these is not going to give you a guarantee of anything.


But your original statement seemed to group ALL breeders into either of those 2 groups that you mentioned



Saikou said:


> That is probably the intention. Swan in, make wild accusations and deflect the conversation at hand, focusing attention on them.


Yes i guess so


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## lorilu

xxSaffronxx said:


> I wasnt going to post but I am very offended by your statement and find it upsetting.
> In your view, breeders should not be breeding at all, is that right?
> 
> What about breeders that do everything right by their cats and are not BYBs and care for their cats greatly and regard them as part of their family?
> I class myself as a hobby breeder, as I am certainly not a profit breeder. So does that mean that I dont care for my cats properly?


I am sorry you are offended. I am only stating my opinion about what I see certain terms as meaning.

If you "do everything right" as far as testing, careful blood lines, limiting the amount of litters any female has to only two or three, then spaying, proper socialization, no adoptions before 12 weeks, clean sanitary humane conditions, having a return guarantee, having a spay/neuter clause, a no declaw clause(if you are somewhere that hideousness is still allowed) so on and so forth, breeding for the betterment and continuation of the breed, that in my opinion classifies you as a responsible, genuine breeder, not a back yard breeder or "hobby" breeder.

it's just a difference in perception of terms. I never said I was "against all breeding" so please do not put words or opinions into my "mouth"

It doesn't matter if I am against it or not, as people are always going to continue breeding. Responsible breeders, back yard breeders, mills, and people that are too stupid or lazy to have their pets spayed and neutered. It's all going to continue, no matter what I think.


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## lorilu

Saikou said:


> Define your definition of hobby breeder and why its mutually exclusive of being a responsible breeder.


I have, please see my latest post.



Saikou said:


> That is probably the intention. Swan in, make wild accusations and deflect the conversation at hand, focusing attention on them.


Again, you are assuming knowledge of me that you do not have.

I am merely stating my opinion and thoughts, just as everyone else does, in this board, which is what this board is for. Because my opinion does not agree with yours, this makes me have ulterior motives? That's just silly. 

Is there a rule here that no one can post unless they agree with everyone else? Of course, I know there is not.

I feel and think what I feel and think, and felt like saying so.


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## xxSaffronxx

lorilu said:


> If you "do everything right" as far as testing, careful blood lines, limiting the amount of litters any female has to only two or three, then spaying, proper socialization, no adoptions before 12 weeks, clean sanitary humane conditions, having a return guarantee, having a spay/neuter clause, a no declaw clause(if you are somewhere that hideousness is still allowed) so on and so forth, breeding for the betterment and continuation of the breed, that in my opinion classifies you as a responsible, genuine breeder, not a back yard breeder or "hobby" breeder.


I do all of those things  my cats are part of my family and have free roam of the house too (if they are not spraying of course), and so they are socialised. They also greet any visitors that come our way.
My girls are always back to condition before I allow them to mate again. Most of them only have 1 litter a year  and sometimes depending on circumstances it could be even less than that.
They are each tested before going to stud, and pedigrees checked carefully before mating.
I recently spayed a girl who is not even 2 yet because she has now had 2 C sections and I didnt think it was fair for her to be mated again, and so I did the responsible thing.
Oh and my kittens dont leave till they are 13 weeks old.


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## Soupie

Not sure what country you are in Lorilu but this is a UK based forum and in the UK the term 'hobby breeder' is not used to describe a Back Yard Breeder but is used to describe someone who breeds for the love of the breed and not to make profit.

All the responsible breeders I know abide by the ethics and guidance of the GCCF and are what I call 'hobby breeders'.


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## Saikou

So by your ridiculous definition all people that breed as a hobby - ie not for any kind of profit who do everything right as far as testing, careful blood lines, limiting the amount of litters any female has to only two or three, then spaying, proper socialization, no adoptions before 12 weeks, clean sanitary humane conditions, having a return guarantee, having a spay/neuter clause, a no declaw clause(if you are somewhere that hideousness is still allowed) so on and so forth, breeding for the betterment and continuation of the breed = byb, thats what you said, you didn't have a 3rd class of "responsible breeder"

xxSaffronxx has already stated she classes herself as a hobby breeder. Why do you think breeding as a hobby is mutually exclusive from being responsible ? That makes absolutely NO sense what so ever.

You should read this thread carefully and re think your definition of hobby breeder


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## fifibelle

Did you know If you keep a goldfish in a dark room, it will eventually turn white!


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## lorilu

Soupie said:


> Not sure what country you are in Lorilu but this is a UK based forum and in the UK the term 'hobby breeder' is not used to describe a Back Yard Breeder but is used to describe someone who breeds for the love of the breed and not to make profit.
> 
> All the responsible breeders I know abide by the ethics and guidance of the GCCF and are what I call 'hobby breeders'.


Thank you for that clarification. I do apologize for offending *responsible* breeders, as I perceive them, as stated in my other post. 

As you point out, it is a matter of different interpretation of terms.

It is not my intent to offend. But I am one of those "bleeding hearts" whose heart breaks over all the unwanted shelter cats every day. And the byb and mills feed those shelters, every day.


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## lorilu

Saikou said:


> So by your ridiculous definition all people that breed as a hobby - ie not for any kind of profit who do everything right as far as testing, careful blood lines, limiting the amount of litters any female has to only two or three, then spaying, proper socialization, no adoptions before 12 weeks, clean sanitary humane conditions, having a return guarantee, having a spay/neuter clause, a no declaw clause(if you are somewhere that hideousness is still allowed) so on and so forth, breeding for the betterment and continuation o*f the breed = byb, thats what you said, *you didn't have a 3rd class of "responsible breeder"
> 
> xxSaffronxx has already stated she classes herself as a hobby breeder. Why do you think breeding as a hobby is mutually exclusive from being responsible ? That makes absolutely NO sense what so ever.
> 
> You should read this thread carefully and re think your definition of hobby breeder


No, that is NOT what I said, perhaps you should reread MY posts as you are again making assumptions about me and applying words and thoughts to me that I never said or expressed:



lorilu said:


> I am sorry you are offended. I am only stating my opinion about what I see certain terms as meaning.
> 
> If you "do everything right" as far as testing, careful blood lines, limiting the amount of litters any female has to only two or three, then spaying, proper socialization, no adoptions before 12 weeks, clean sanitary humane conditions, having a return guarantee, having a spay/neuter clause, a no declaw clause(if you are somewhere that hideousness is still allowed) so on and so forth, breeding for the betterment and continuation of the breed, *that in my opinion classifies you as a responsible, genuine breeder, not a back yard breeder or "hobby" breeder.*
> 
> it's just a difference in perception of terms. I never said I was "against all breeding" so please do not put words or opinions into my "mouth"
> 
> It doesn't matter if I am against it or not, as people are always going to continue breeding. Responsible breeders, back yard breeders, mills, and people that are too stupid or lazy to have their pets spayed and neutered. It's all going to continue, no matter what I think.


----------



## lizward

lorilu said:


> of course a *responsible breeder* will. I am talking about BYB and mills. Purchasing from either of these is not going to give you a guarantee of anything.
> And my *opinion* is that "hobby breeders" are BYB and "profit breeders" are mills.


Who are the responsible breeders then?

Liz


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## lorilu

lizward said:


> Who are the responsible breeders then?
> 
> Liz


Hi Liz. my definition and opinion of what constitutes a responsible breeder has been posted in this thread. 



> *Originally Posted by lorilu *
> 
> If you "do everything right" as far as testing, careful blood lines, limiting the amount of litters any female has to only two or three, then spaying, proper socialization, no adoptions before 12 weeks, clean sanitary humane conditions, having a return guarantee, having a spay/neuter clause, a no declaw clause(if you are somewhere that hideousness is still allowed) so on and so forth, breeding for the betterment and continuation of the breed,* that in my opinion classifies you as a responsible, genuine breeder,* not a back yard breeder or "hobby" breeder.


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## Saikou

lorilu said:


> No, that is NOT what I said, perhaps you should reread MY posts as you are again making assumptions about me and applying words and thoughts to me that I never said or expressed:


You said Hobby Breeder = byb!!! I get that. You have already admitted that you have used the incorrect term so case closed!!

If you bothered to read the thread you will see that the latter half is all about breeders NOT abusing the term hobby breeder, so your inflammatory wild statement above was not appreciated. What was being discussed was why you can not call yourself a hobby breeder if you are charging silly prices and you wade in with

hobby breeder = byb

profit breeder= kitten (or puppy) mill

You still have not explained why a breeder, in your opinion, can not be a hobby breeder AND be responsible. That was the point I was trying to make above.

Going back to a early point - no I don't agree with you and have a right to express that and I think in this section neither would 99.9% of the posters.

I can understand you being passionate about over population of cats in rescue, especially if you are stateside and have experience with kill shelters. You should be aware that a lot of responsible hobby breeders not only stand by every cat they breed but also help out with breed rescues!!!!

If you are trying to bring rescues plight to the fore then there is a better way of going about it other than the approach you have taken of insulting the posters on here without any knowledge of their breeding practices, making huge assumptions - just what you have accused me of doing!


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## Milly22

fifibelle said:


> Did you know If you keep a goldfish in a dark room, it will eventually turn white!


Wow is that true ? 

I am a byb turned hobby breeder who will eventually have a small mill in the hills eventually, by the sea would be better, no doubt.

I was quoted £900 for a Breeding Female yesterday. 

*£900*


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## fifibelle

mellowma said:


> Wow is that true ?


Apparently :yikes: just thought it was one of those random things that would give everyone a second to breath and think!


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## Milly22

Good thinking! 

They don't listen though, they carry on regardless. I have tried it before. 

Got my attention though!

OH SHIZZER I SEEM TO HAVE JOINED IN!


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## sootisox

900?? as in nine hundred pounds?? For a ragdoll queen?? Was she solid gold ??


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## Biawhiska

fifibelle said:


> Did you know If you keep a goldfish in a dark room, it will eventually turn white!


No, but why would you ? lol


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## Biawhiska

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> I would be happy to privatly adopt or rehome a future cat
> 
> Heres a sphynx ad for near me, doesnt mention anything about Hcm testing
> 
> Sphynx Kittens - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto
> 
> I think I will email them asking why they charge so much.
> 
> This guys is handsome
> 
> Free Male Orange Tabby - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto


I like the orange kitty he looks lovely. Go for a proper cat with FUR! :smile5:


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## Miss.PuddyCat

Biawhiska said:


> I like the orange kitty he looks lovely. Go for a proper cat with FUR! :smile5:


Theres nothing wrong with wrinkles  and being hairless which they arent really as they have downy on them.

So far Ive seen an ad for Savannah kittens for 1000$, everything else seems to be around 600$.

Well I am already planing on getting a Chocolate Pointed Birman in the future. But I already had a list of other cat breeds I like


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## Milly22

sootisox said:


> 900?? as in nine hundred pounds?? For a ragdoll queen?? Was she solid gold ??


No but the father is a show boy. I think it was the same ones advertising pets as £575. I would have to show her for her first year, which would be nice but I would love to create my own "show kitty"! They were lovely though.

Not £900 lovely I don't think. I was quoted £800 twice last year. I may try advertising mine for £1000. Mine wiill be special, maybe not show special but special all the same. See how I go!   

*£900*


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## fifibelle

Biawhiska said:


> No, but why would you ? lol


I dont know, I kinda wonder how people find these things out?!


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## Soupie

So let me get this straight - they quote you well over the odds for a queen on active and then you HAVE to show her as part of the sale?

Selkirks used to be crazily expensive to start with but are pretty much on a par now with British Shorthairs although some people still charge crazy prices for newbies buying on active - I know of someone paying 1500 pounds last year for a boy on active ... Most people charging 650 on active for curly boys and girls and variants obviously much cheaper.


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## messyhearts

I'm flabbergasted. How can anyone genuinely fund for one cat to be shown that was bought for a fee of £900 assuming it is one of many queens anyway. That's quite frankly upsetting to hear. They should be paying YOU to show their beautiful cat & advertise their prefix everywhere if anything!!!!! How ridiculous. I'm afraid I completely agree with Saikou on all of this. I did buy a Birman at £100 more than the breeder's pet rate but wouldn't do it again. All kittens should cost the same & the only difference should be the breeder's decision down to their vetting of homes & potential owners as to whether they are show, pet or breeding kittens. It doesn't cost more to raise a breeding or show kitten. Yes, it costs more to buy a breeding kitten but why pass this burden on? Added to that show & breeding kittens advertise your own cattery for free!!


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## lizward

I actually sold two kittens cheaper because they were for breeding!

Liz


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## Clare Ferris

lorilu said:


> of course a *responsible breeder* will. I am talking about BYB and mills. Purchasing from either of these is not going to give you a guarantee of anything.
> 
> You don't know me well enough to comment on my *knowledge* of anything, really.
> 
> And my *opinion* is that "hobby breeders" are BYB and "profit breeders" are mills.
> 
> And yes, of course animals and children are both living beings who someone should be responsible for. Who said they aren't? the problem is, animals are much more often treated like commodities or disposable objects than human children.
> 
> Especially by BYB and mills. And since BYB and mills feed the shelters, anyone wanting a pure bred can usually find one at a shelter or rescue, if they look hard enough.


I think the problem with the over population problem is mainly in moggie cats due to people not choosing to neuter, feral popualtions breeding uncontrolably, ignorance and the fact some people see pets as disposeable commodities. Pedigree cats make up a very small number of the cats in rescue and the pedigrees that end up in rescue are normally rehomed through breed specific rescues. More people should be educated to neuter cats before sexual maturity to contol the problem and not buy from byb's or pet shops etc. There are also people breeding moggies.

Most people wanting a cat do go for moggies but there are some people who like a particular breed so why should they feel guilty for having one and why should responsible breeders not produce kittens for these people. There are also people who cannot have cats normally i.e allergies but can tolerate certain breeds, should they not have a cat because they cannot tolerate a mog? Most good breeders will rehome any of their cats that can nolonger be cared for by the current owner they dont even step foot in the door of a rescue so how is that adding to the over population problem in rescue situations? You make think well if there where not any pedigrees then people would take on a mog but not always the case some people just want a particular cat, with a specific look and temperament.

Our practice does alot of work with a rescue centre for dogs and cats and I have never seen any pedigree cats come in from them, apart from one occassion recently when a black smoke kitten came in that looked like a siberian when I enquired about it turns out there was a whole litter that where handed in by a persian breeder as one of his girls got out and mated with the local tom so he could not sell them as peds hence handing them over to rescue, but all found homes straight away. I think he was wrong to do that personnally if it had happened to me then I would have rehomed them myself but that is honestly the only time I have came across this in 10 yrs.

I think the answer of over population lies more with education, neuter and responsible pet ownership oh and more programs for trapping and neutering ferals maybe


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## Saikou

messyhearts said:


> = They should be paying YOU to show their beautiful cat & advertise their prefix everywhere if anything!!!!!


I agree it is advertising for the breeder and an honour. Show homes come along so rarely that they should be something to be grateful for - as long as the cat is still a pet first and foremost.

The same with a breed cat really. Puts your prefix into the history of the breed. Someone 10 yrs hence line chasing their cat back and your cat is there, his or her genes making a contribution to the breed gene pool.

I have never understood this possession over lines, which seems to be one of the main reasons for charging a premium for a breed cat - as supposedly the new owner will be benefiting from all the breeders hard work...........but surely thats the whole point to breeding under a registered prefix to help further the breed and secure its future. You hear that phrase bandied about alot as a reason for breeding, but then they miss off - but I will be charging people extra for the privilege. Not quite so altruistic !

Whose lines are they anyway - do people really own lines, because anyone line is a product of 100s of ancestors bred by other people.


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## Clare Ferris

I personnally would only sell a cat for breeding that had come from a healthy line with no known problems with their reproductive organs-so capable of breeding, that was show quality. At the moment I have one girl that is of the show standard the others are ok but not exceptional (tica are very harsh when judging cats and make it very difficult for cats to get titles as they are judged against every other breed not just their own, so can only get finals and titles if they win over other breeds aswell, a bit like best in show). 

If a person wants a cat that is then going to go on to hopefully be a good show cat and breeding girl then these cats are few and far between so personnally I dont think I will be selling many for this at all. If I want a good line for this I would have to pay for it as they are very much in demand. It costs alot to get a cat upto a good standard for showing and the costs of shows with TICA are high £80 (per cat). Again some may say why pass this onto an owner but if they are searching for a good cat they want to win with then the breeders of these cats have had to pay alot of expense to get the parents there, so if you show as well then you are majorly out of pocket. To be able to provide some hope of their cat getting anywhere in the show circuit they need to come from good examples of the breed that have titles otherwise if they dont most people wont want a cat and it is hard to then be able to better the breed from a show point of view if you dont know what is required from not showing. Getting cats to this level is hard and expensive so I would pay and have paid more than a pet price as not every kitten is good enough as that is what I am looking for.

I am sure some may disagree with this and thats their opinion but I dont think you can honestly expect to get a good show/breed cat for the same price as a pet, plus most breeders would want to keep the best themselves so for people who just want to show and not breed it may be very difficult to convince a breeder to give up a good cat. I had this problem with my girl as at first I was going to just show her as a neuter but the breeder did not want this so kept her for herself as she was to good to be a pet, when I later decided to go into breeding I was then offerred this cat as the breeder wanted her to go on and further the breed.

Granted most pet owners dont care about this so that is why they are not charged more for adopting a kitten if they are not interested in this. If they are then they will be offerred the best kitten possible that the breeder believes is good enough. This cat may have been kept by the breeder or sold to another breeder so they are not just getting any old cat but the best in the litter or cattery. A good breeder will only sell cats of a good enough standard for breeding and nothing below this as it does not do anything to benefit the breed. I know certain breeds may only charge £100 more for breed or show or maybe not at all and thats upto them but are they selling cats that are exceptional in the show ring with good titles? 

I cannot speak for everyone who breeds but I have found it to be normal for this practice before even when looking on the internet I have come across many sites that explain the differences betwen pet/show/breed etc and all say a difference in price so I honestly thought this was normal and could understand why until coming on here so it has certainly been an eye opener to find it is not true with all breeds/breeders


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## Saikou

Common newbie misconception - mating two titled parents does not guarantee kittens with title potential - if it was only that easy!! Show potential kittens come from selecting the right parental match and those parents do not have to have titles just have the potential to throw the qualities required. I can think of lots of Imperial Gr Ch sires who do not throw their equivalent. So as that is not a prerequisite for producing show type kittens there is nothing there to pass onto the new owner. Especially as they will be paying out the same in show fees to advertise your prefix when they show the kitten on your behalf!!!

Just as an aside the cost of a TICA show is infact cheaper than the GCCF, as you can gain titles in one day, where it takes a minimum of 3 GCCF show to achieve the same the basic Ch/Pr title. I know as a cat I breed achieved TICA Supreme Gr Ch Alter in 3 shows, would have been 2 if a couple of results were reversed.

Breeders can not keep all good cats for themselves they would soon run out of room. If they have a good cat the best option is to hope that a lovely show neuter home comes along. The male neuter classes are of an incredibly high standard for that reason - only a few outstanding males go for stud the rest end up, if the breeder is lucky, as a show neuter. People willing to invest in showing a kitten of yours should be treasured not stiffed on the price of a kitten.


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## Clare Ferris

Oh I am well aware a cat with a title that is good may not have the potential to produce exact copies of the same standard hence why it is so difficult to get a good cat. Trial and error and alot of hard work along the way I guess.
I would love to have my kitties go onto show and do well and would be so proud and yes having my prefix out there would get me known.

I dont know if new breeds need more time to stabalise type compared to more established breeds that have been bred over a longer period?, I would guess so as they have not been regulated as long so type in my breed can be abit all over the place and inconsistent.

I dont do GCCF but I thought you got cc against cats of the same breed. Dont know the prices for shows but I have been told by a GCCF breeder who has moved over to tica that it is alot easier to get a title with GCCF as you are not competing against all breeds of cat for a cc. Tica have bob which I imagine are the equivolent to cc, but you dont get anything for them and they dont count towards titles, you only get titles if your cat is good enough to be put through to best in show, they only allow 10 cats to go through out of a possible 60 or so cats so if you dont get an all breed final then your bob counts for nothing. My girl got 5 bob at her first show beating all the other sibbys including the boys which was great considereing the competition but only got 1 all breed final when up against every other breed of cat. 

I have shown my girl and she gets judged against the boys who are bigger so it is very difficult for her although she is very good. and comes from a line that always produce exceptional cats. My future stud boys father also seems to produce very good examples of the breed infact mini copies of himself so I would imagine these two cats put together have the best hope of producing some good kitties but wont know till I try I guess.lol

I see your points but I still think you would generally expect to pay more for a breed cat of show standard from what I have seen, although I admit not everyone charges more for show neuters.


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## Soupie

My opinion only Claire as someone who shows both TICA and GCCF. TICA don't check bites which GCCF do - I know a number of cats in my breed with bad bites who are highly titled. Not so bad in neuters you might think but for me I think it's important that breeding cats should not have very severely off bites ...

Also I have found generally with my breed that TICA judges can coat judge rather than type judge. I have a super kitten for temperament and his coat is to die for but his type is a tad persian and yet he did brilliantly at TICA as his overall impression is wow until you look under the coat! 
I think the adult rings at TICA can be tougher than GCCF to title but in my humble opinion the neuter rings are far easier. As Saikou says the neuter standard at GCCF tends to be phenomenallly high - certainly in my breed it is soooooo competitive and very few cats have titled in 3 shows even the very best neuters. My 'top' neuter who has yet to go out for his GCCF titles supremed in two shows at TICA which was lovely (under old points) but once he'd done that I was left feeling 'what now?'

I really think it varies from breed to breed but for me with my cats I have found GCCF harder and more competitive so far ;-)


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## Saikou

Its the same with the GCCF in my breeds. I have seen highly titled cats under TICA that wouldn't make ch/pr under the GCCF. The GCCF also withhold if they do not think the cat is up to scratch, even if you are the only one in your open. Despite saying to final the cat/kitten has to beat every other cat/kitten in the show isn't strictly true as a number are taken out in the colour and division process. The finaling cat competes against all the BOBs, and you could end up with a SP final, finaling 5th out of 5 having had no competition to get there if you are the only one in your colour and division and there only being 5 BOBs to gain your ch title. I appreciate it doesn't always work that way, but it is possible. If the cat isn't considered worthy of a cert then it is not awarded. No thank you for turning up points awarded.

The point was about cost. Even if it is viewed it is easier to get a title under the GCCF, you still have to attend a minimum of 3 shows to get that title, so thats over £100, rather than the 1 for TICA. The person that moved from the GCCF to TICA would say it was easier under the GCCF, seeing as they obviously wern't happy with them, so if thats your only contact it was hardly an unbiased opinion!!!

Whatever the registry, it shouldn't be viewed that you are doing the kitten buyer a favour by agreeing to sell them a show potential kitten, they are doing you one by agreeing to show and advertise your prefix!!!!!

If you charge extra for that kitten, what guarantees or recompense do you offer if that kitten then doesn't reach the potential he/she showed at 14 weeks? Seems even more unfair not only to charge a premium then just turning round and saying "no guarantees".


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## Milly22

I am not buying the £900 girl by the way as buying her would also mean that I would have the owner in my life forever. That's the general feeling I get about it all.

They are on pre-loved & pet4homes, in a nice surrounding picture.


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## lizward

Clare Ferris said:


> To be able to provide some hope of their cat getting anywhere in the show circuit they need to come from good examples of the breed that have titles


Not so. There are good show cats bred from untitled parents. The aim, after all, is to breed a cat better than either parent.

Liz


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## messyhearts

lizward said:


> Not so. There are good show cats bred from untitled parents. The aim, after all, is to breed a cat better than either parent.
> 
> Liz


Agreed. Cats are judged on that particular day & in GCCF at least, they haven't a clue who their parents are. A pedigree full of red names with CH, GR CH & IMP GR CH looks good when you're buying a kitten but it is the kitten's type that should be looked at as dazzling as some pedigrees can be to potential owners!

Cats win titles by competing against their own breed in the champion classes but judges regularly withhold certificates & many breeds go onto grand classes that compete against others in their section. With my two breeds, it is slightly different even though they are both SLH. Maine Coons do tend to stride through shows as they have classes split into colours unlike NFC for example & tend to be placed first in misc classes if they are MC & male. They also are in a grand class against all SLH except Birmans. Birman type is one of the hardest to get right in the cat fancy because of the pedantic foot markings that are required so a good Birman is a fantastic cat it would seem. Not sure why they split them from the rest of the SLH for grand classes. As it is rare & difficult to get the markings right, this is why I was charged an additional fee for a kitten that had no show faults at the time of bringing him home. Your argument that kittens that have this quality are harder to come by so should be worth more is clearly used by many breeders but we should be encouraging not discouraging people into the cat fancy. We need wider gene pools & we need more exhibitors to keep the fancy afloat. That's not to give these cats to anyone but vetting is in order & with the recession just finishing, it is important to find right homes not owners with the right salary.  Not that they are mutually exclusive but good homes are a priority & if average pet prices are the answer (which they should be) then why not? It's unfair to pass the buck because a breeder was overcharged for a certain quality when they started.


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## Kalipha

There's a stud in the mau breeding pool at the moment who is massively massively tarnished, and has terrible head conformation. However he has some of the best coat pattern doing, extremely high contrast and really distinct. Bred with a girl with great head shape and a good history of tarnish-free kittens, he might throw something really special. He'd get laughed off a show bench though 

Oh, and if it clarifies my position, just to note I personally don't plan to charge any extra for show quality, and maybe £150 more for active. None of this £thousands stuff Saiku keeps coming back to as if my earlier posts were trying to justify that kind of silly price.


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## helenw

this is my first post here, i have read with great interest the views that others have posted on this subject. 

My own thoughts and observations (in no particular order, as this is such a long thread)...

We originally had 2 lovely mogs (brother & sister, which we still have), and did the right thing by having them neutered at an early age.

We then bought a ped, active girl 3 years ago. We have had to date 1 litter from her (6 kittens, 5 boys & 1 girl). 2 of the kittens were very, very tiny and were not doing very well at all, being small they were being edged out in the fight for nipples etc. Our vet said it was quite possible that we would lose them. However, we managed to successfully hand rear them (feeding them every 2 hours or so for the 1st few weeks - don't think i had to do that with my own children!!). The 5 boys went to pet homes and the girl we kept for ourselves. We advertised our kittens on the breed club site and no where else, and found wonderful homes for them (maybe it was beginners luck). We did however turn down 2 people who came to see them as we didn't really feel that they were wanting one of our kittens for "the right reasons" (That was our feeling at the time - call it instinct or what have you). All of our kittens new slaves keep in touch. 

The girl we kept had kittens last year, she had 4 girls, again we only advertised them on the breed club site. All 4 found lovely homes and 1 only was sold as being put on the active register. And yes, we did ask for and received more for her than we sold the other 3. But it was by no way a lot more.

I do consider myself a hobby breeder, yes my cats do give birth in the spare bedroom is that worse than having them give birth in an outside shed and run? I do show, am passionately interested in my choice of breed, both the temperament, health, look and history of it. Both my husband and i (god! sound like the queen now!!) spare no expense when it comes to our cats (both mogs and peds alike). And i make an absolute idiot of myself when it is time for my kittens to go off to their new homes - i cry buckets, i just hate to see them go. (Maybe i shouldn't be breeding after all then).

So, yes i do breed, and yes i have charged more for one "breeding" girl, but i (along with many others) do try to do the right thing by my chosen breed. I would be amazed if i had made any money from my hobby (we don't have a stud cat, and in our case have had to travel fairly large distances in order to visit a boy + we always make sure we see a potential stud before taking a girl to him, so we have to make the journey at least 3 times). 

Then again a hobby is something we do for our own enjoyment and pleasure. Not an enterprise.


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## Saikou

Can I ask you why you decided to charge more for an active kitten and was anything agreed/discussed with her new owners should she prove not to be a successful breeding queen


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## Miss.PuddyCat

I also heard that some Sphynx breeders may charge more for coat colour like chocolate.

I dont see how coat colour can change the price

Anyways I have decided after much thinking, thinking and more thinking (have tons of free time lol) That I will put my dream of having a Sphynx cat on the back burner until I'm happy with the breed.

Now I just have to decide if I want to get two Birman kittens (plan was to get a Birman and Sphynx Kitten at the same time) or research a second breed. And get a Birman and something else hmmmm


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## flosskins

i have been reading all of this with interest, and going back to the original point of the thread feel that it is completely up to the breeder what they charge for their kittens, active, pet or show, as they can put any price tag they like on it, but it is up to the buyer if they want to pay that much. as shown by the original post, if the animal seems to be more expensive than the market average then they will question why and if they should spend that much, and are only likely to if the breeder can justify their prices. in which case, if the breeder does not have a way of justifying their high prices then they are unlikely to sell their kittens, meaning they will have to drop their prices. 

this applies to any definition of breeder going on here, whether breeding for profit or as a hobby if you overprice your kittens and they don't sell then you haven't acheived anything. 

I bought my queen to breed from, and was aware I would have to pay slightly more for this pleasure. i don't feel this was incorrect as by breeding i increase competition in kitten sales for the original breeder and i have the opportunity (however slight) to make money from the cat i bought. 

in regards to paying the same for pet or show/active quality cats - don't scream at this as a comparison but you would expect to pay more for land with planning permission that land that had been refused planning permission - ie you pay more for something that has potential to be more that it is now, whether that be the potential to have a show cat or the potential to breed.

of course irresponsible breeders are out there and causing problems for everyone else but it would seem to me that to be a responsible breeder you need to charge enough for the kittens to recoup your losses and make it worth your while - not in terms of a huge profit but at least enough money to enable you to pay for the next stud fee or feed your queen for a while, otherwise if this is deemed as wrong and not allowed how many responsible breeders will be forced to cut corners to simply make ends meet? rather than driving people out of a hobby they obviously enjoy simply make it up to the purchasers to be intelligent enough to realise when they are being over charged, or to seek advice. if they are happy to pay over inflated prices then as far as i am concerned let them.


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## Saikou

I completely agree it is up to the individual breeder to charge what they like. As long as if they are charging over the odds for whatever reason for their kittens ie recouping more than they cost to raise, that they do not refer to themselves as hobby breeders, because they are not. That's perfectly fair.

The land anology is not really relevant as you are not selling a kitten with uterus or testicles inserted at cost they all come like that  Any reason for a show cat is now even more tenuous seeing as ANY pedigree can potentially be shown and gain a title whether as a pedigree or a pedigree pet. In fact as has already been mentioned even less excuse when showing as a pedigree as it is free advertising for the breeder which they wouldn't get under the pedigree pet section.

Its not just pet purchasers that need to be intelligent enough to realise they are being overcharged. People looking to breed should deploy the same common sense and not agree to pay over the odds, just because everyone else does.

At the end of the day, breeding is an expensive hobby, and it should not be entered into if it leaves you unable to "make ends meet". Perception is everything and it is those people who are charging ridiculous prices for cats who will in the end not only ruin the future of their breeds but also ruin the status of 'hobby breeder' for those you genuinely are!!!


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## messyhearts

Pet home enquiries undoubtedly have the power to decrease a breeder's standard kitten rate but I don't think show and definitely breeding enquiries do. They would surely affirm the idea that they didn't want that home for their kitten anyway if they couldn't afford their inflated prices as showing/breeding is an expensive hobby. So breeding & show potential kittens get spayed/neutered as a pet keeping gene pools smaller, kitten queries safer, cliques tighter and "BYB" away whilst possibly offering discounts to those in the clique if they want a breeding queen or stud.

I'm not prepared to more than kitten price for a show kitten again but I have to face facts that as a newbie looking to breed that my pound has little power in the cat fancy when it comes to active cats. Many would rather the safer option of a pet home.


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## Saikou

messyhearts said:


> I'm not prepared to more than kitten price for a show kitten again but I have to face facts that as a newbie looking to breed that my pound has little power in the cat fancy when it comes to active cats. Many would rather the safer option of a pet home.


Thats because its almost a catch 22 situation, in charging a premium, the breeder attracts the wrong kind of breed home. Some breeders do not care what kind of breed home is on offer as long as they are willing to pay the price. A responsible breeder would care, but their solution to that is to lock down their active sales because they don't feel they can trust anyone else  but then thats a situation they created in the first place. If you don't make breeding seem like a lucrative deal then you automatically lose the interest of all those undesirables, leaving you with the those that have the breed and it's future as their main priorities and nothing else.

It is a huge leap of trust selling an active kitten as want to ensure that cat is not going to be abused in anyway. ie over bred, poor studs left in lonely outside housing year after year etc

I don't think it is impossible to get an active cat, I certainly didn't have any issues, but then you do have to put in an apprenticeship period too. This is really a must, not only to gain the trust of other breeders by proving you are serious about the breed, but also enables you to learn all about that breed.

I think any responsible good breeder would be suspicious of anyone who without owning and showing a particular breed would suddenly want to get into breeding.

I have always had Siamese, got my first Oriental in 1988. I have showed on and off since then. Took up showing more seriously in 1999. In showing a neuter, it enables you to learn about the lines, what judges look for in a cat, the kind of "look" that appeals to you, what lines give you that look, what lines to avoid etc. It provides you with contacts within the breed. Breeding was just a natural progression from there, and I had no issues in finding people who would sell me a queen (not for a premium I hasten to add). My boys I bred myself, and although the second was from a restricted mating, had no problems in asking the breeder to agree to allow me to keep him entire.

It might seem like a lot of time and effort, but if you are really serious and passionate about a breed rather than just producing kittens to sell then there is no other way around it.


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## Clare Ferris

I was talking to a friend at a show last weekend about the charging of breed/show cats and her opinion with regards breed cats is you pay extra because you are buying the breeding rights for that cat, producing kittens from that breeders lines and potentially making money regardless how little it is. As someone else mentioned the breeder is taking a huge risk allowing another person to have their lines with regards welfare of the cat, competition in the show ring and from kitten sales. Unfortunately I have found the show/breeding world very competitve and catty. That is why she is not interested in helping set up anymore new breeders in her area as it means she could potentially not be able to sell her cats if there is alot of competition. She does charge more for breed cats because of the above as do almost every breeder I know of certainly in my breed. 

I had another breeder of a common breed approach me for a breeding girl last year and I turned her down initially but then I found out she was a reputable breeder so I said I would consider it but when she found out I charge more for breed cats she would not pay it as she does not pay more in her breed so she thought why should I pay it for this breed? that was the end of that conversation. I have now found she has gone to another breeder who also charges more and is waiting for a show/breed girl from her so she must have realised if she wants a good cat then she would have to pay extra. She would have had to pay it with any sibby breeder and as someone else said she was probably trying it on with a newbie breeder to see what she could get away with.

I dont need to sell my cats for breeding and I would rather they were sold as neutered pets but I would take the risk for another reputable breeder, so thats what people must understand when wanting a breeding cat, obviously it does the breed good on the whole but it is hard trusting another new breeder unless they have been involved in the cat fancy/breeding of another breed etc.

The people who seem to have a problem with it are the ones who have not had to pay this premium whereas I did so I dont see all the fuss to be honest, the breeder is doing that person a huge favour by letting them have their cats for breeding as they dont have to do this and I am very grateful to my breeder for trusting me enough to allow me to breed two of her cats, she does not sell often to people in the U.K so she is not a money grabber by any means and she does charge more for breed and show cats.

I dont agree that any kitten/cat can be shown and get a title they have to conform to the standard fairly well to be able to do this. It is alot of hard work and expense producing cats that are good enough for this and whilst you cannot guarantee show success you look at the lines and previous kittens from them to gain an idea of how a kitten will develop and take it from there. It would be a hell of alot cheaper to not bother and just have anything in your breeding program but those who want to improve the breed wont be happy doing this and try and purchase good cats which are nearly always more expensive because they are from sought after lines.

I think it is up to the kitten owner at the end of the day and as someone has said wheter the breeeder can justify the price, some breeders offer alot more with their kittens than others and put alot more time into handling and socialisation etc, whats the saying you get what you pay for! I am not saying that breeders with lower priced kittens dont care for them properly but is really upto the individual breeder what they charge and if they sell them and people are happy, if not then they will have to reduce the price, but if they charge the normal price for their breed then it wont make a difference. Ok there will be people who over inflate prices to try it on and see what they can get but just because a breeder charges alittle more and can justify it I dont think it is a bad thing especially if you are getting a nice cat. I think kitten owners have to compare the overall price in their breed and ask breeders why they charge more if they do. I was always told you should not need to justify your prices but if people want to know why they are that price I dont have a problem telling them. 

I guess for some breeds it is normal to charge the same wheter be pet/show/breed etc and thats upto the breeder but there are some breeds where it is normal to charge more, does not make them money grabbers for asking alittle more for all the effort and cost that has gone into their breeding. The majority of reputable breeders hardly sell cats for breeding anyway so I dont see how they can be making money from it.

Its still a hobby at the end of the day even if they do ask more for breeding cats unless they mass produce kittens and dont work and make a living from it!


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## messyhearts

That's true about some breeders offering more. Some kind of leave you to it & others get involved & sometimes (not always!) that is nice! Especially if it is a new breed for you.


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## Mochali

I charge the same price for all my kittens as you cannot guarantee them doing well as show/breeding queens


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## Clare Ferris

I dont think any breeder can guarantee anything even if they keep a really nice kitten themselves they do not know for sure if it will do well, you look at previous kittens from the matings, compare them against the breed standard and how well the cats have bred in the past for an idea of this and hope for the best. You offer what you believe will fit the purpose the cat was bought for. If we could guarantee show winning cats and excellent breeders then we would all have high titled cats that bred with no problems and had a decent litter size. How great would that be!!! 

Another point about new breeders that I have found put people of is type of sale is the amount of time and effort the breeder selling the cat has to put in mentoring new breeders, another big responsibility that some just dont have the time to do.


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## Saikou

Sorry clare but I have never read such a load of old tosh as an excuse for charging a premium for breed/show kittens. It really does come down to pure greed. All this rubbish about rare breeds etc, thats just a marketing hook. Hey maybe I should be charging more for my caramel orientals they are "rare" as are red/cream/apricot females "rare as hens teeth"    In all that, all I read are breeders protecting their own personal financial interests, nothing to do with protecting or furthering a breed, just making sure the continue to earn from their breeding cats. Protecting lines is a laugh too, just how far back to "their lines" go, 3 gens at most ? Siberians aren't rare, theres tons of them in Russia and the US.

You don't see a problem with it as I suspect those high prices and earning potential was what attracted you to the breed in the first place and not one of these more lowly "common" breeds. Its a shame that all the siberian breeders can not learn from what happened in the Bengals before it is too late.

I don't think you understand the concept of profit. If you breed to make a profit that takes you out of the hobby status. The tax man will be interested in any money you make even if you don't consider it enough to live on, thats not the point. If you income exceeds your outgoings its profit and he will want his share!

I think you will find that the breeders who have an issue with charging a premium are *genuine *hobby breeders and do not want their status ruined by those who rather than breeding for a genuine love of a breed are doing it for ££££s, but hiding behind the "hobby breeder" label so they do not have to pay tax on their profits. As I have said, I have no issue with someone making a profit, but call it what it is a small business, not a hobby!!!


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## Clare Ferris

Im sorry!...but you dont know why I got into the breed so please dont imply it was for money, you know nothing about my out goings or expenses, just because you or any other breeder have a set amount of out goings does not mean anyone else does.

I got my first cat as a pet/show neuter and did not even think about breeding initially, it was only after owning the breed that I thought it would be a nice *hobby* again I dont think most make money at all from breeding. My friend did her books recently and worked out she has spent £22000 since she started on her hobby a few years ago and has made about £5000 back in kitten sales, she charges the same as me so is she really making a profit, it certainly does not look like it, infact that is a huge loss. So she has a small business that if was anything else would have ran itself into the ground by now! Why should see call herself a business breeder, a good business makes money does it not????

Your attitude is not going to change anyones mind and certainly not mine, I dont need to justify my pricing as I do not need to be branded as a money grabber who has a business.
You charge whatever you like for your kittens and that is upto you but you cannot dictate to someone what they should be charging or make them feel guilty for charging the average price in their breed. Siberians are not that common in the U.S but ofcourse they will be in Russia, they are certainly not common here. What being common in a different country has to do with here I dont know, a pet owner cannot obtain a cat in another country or they could but at great expense, without the few dedicated breeders here who where responsible for bringing the first cats into the country only a mere 8 yrs ago there would be no pet owners enjoying these cats as pets today. Although saying that I have heard a russian breeder stating how sad it was that the Maine coon has now taken over as the most popular cat in Russia when she believes it should be the native breed that is more popular.

I could have decided to breed persians as I love these cats and spent a hell of less money but I decided to go with a breed I am facinated by which has upto now cost me alot more than it would have done with a native breed.


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## Biawhiska

I wouldn't buy from some one who charged more for show/breed kittens. I would be put off straight away. I got a female cat I was hoping to breed from the one in my avatar. She was neutered in the end and I paid the same as what the lady charges for pets. The Breeder did say I obviously can't gaurantee that she will be able to breed... which I think is the most important part in all of this.

No one can say the cat you sell will be fertile, or indeed do well on the Show Bench. So, why charge obscene amounts? I just do not get it. Well, I do, it's to make money but then people keep saying it's not which I think is a load of rubbish.

I really do hate when people put prices on their websites too, that is another thing that would put me right off!


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## Saikou

I agree, none of the active girls I have purchased have costed more than their siblings going for pet. One of them is a Gr Ch multi BIS winner with a very famous Gr Ch father. In each instance it was the loving home that was the most important thing to the breeder. Maybe thats because they were from one of these so called "common" ten a penny breeds 

The practice of charging more does seem to be breed specific, it just takes one breeder to start it and they all jump on the band wagon, and then others eventually get involved for that earning potential. Weird really when you hear claim that every breeder can charge what they like - when in reality they are only charging what they do because someone else does    That just doesn't make sense. Its painfully obvious that is the case, as when asked to justify why they charge a premium they have to ask another breeder why


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## Milly22

I wouldn't get a Breeding Ragdoll kitten for under £550. No way. If anyone wants to sell me one contact me  As I would like 2 in the spring time instead of just one.

TBRCC doesn't help with their guide to pricing. Sorry TBRCC. :blush2:


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## Biawhiska

I think "some" breeders are just obsessed with prices and getting what they put in back out. As mentioned it does seem to be breed specific. I always do chuckle when I read "my lines".... like one litter of kittens and all of a sudden they are your lines and you have to protect them. I think it takes a tad longer than that to truely have your own "line" another thing that makes me laugh is when you see advertisements saying kittens have 20 gr chs in their ped, yeah... so what?


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## messyhearts

mellowma said:


> I wouldn't get a Breeding Ragdoll kitten for under £550. No way. If anyone wants to sell me one contact me  As I would like 2 in the spring time instead of just one.
> 
> TBRCC doesn't help with their guide to pricing. Sorry TBRCC. :blush2:


Wouldn't or couldn't?

I don't understand why you wouldn't. It's not a guarantee of quality.


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## Biawhiska

Can a Mod change the "two" to "too" please, it annoys me each time I come on this thread :smile5:


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## Tje

Clare Ferris said:


> Your attitude is not going to change anyones mind and certainly not mine, I dont need to justify my pricing as I do not need to be branded as a money grabber who has a business.


The poster you are referring to might no change your attitude, but she has an attitude that I (and I am sure many other discerning buyers) look for in a breeder, i.e. a genuine hobby breeder in it for the love of the breed and the pleasure breeding brings.

People with closed minds will never change their attitudes open minded people change their attitudes as they learn new things.

I am not a breeder and dont think I ever will be, but I am learning a lot on the different attitudes of different breeders just by reading these forums.

Posts in here dont necessarily _change_ my opinions on breeding or breeders, but they certainly do help me _form_ opinions on the different type of breeders out there and why they are motivated to breed.

Some breeders _are_ simply far more profit oriented than others.

With some posters its obvious they do it for the love of their breed with others it not so obvious. And with some I have the gravest reservations about why they breed at all.


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## Tje

Biawhiska said:


> Can a Mod change the "two" to "too" please, it annoys me each time I come on this thread :smile5:


I am so relieved to know I am not the only one :001_tt1:


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## spid

I have to say I have just bought a new breeding queen - and, as is usual in Birmans, I have paid a little more for her than pet price (£50 more) - I'm happy to do this as the breeder was thinking about keeping her for herself as she was so nice and I have been priviledged to be allowed to have her. However, I would balk at paying more than £75-100 more for an unproven queen. It does seem to be the 'done thing' to charge more. Personally, I'm not sure what I would do if I was ever in the position to sell a girl on the active. I already know I wouldn't charge more for show neuter, but I was asked a while back about actiuve price and I just quoted the price I had been quoted for my girl. I suppose, I felt that if I was cheaper then I might be looked at as though there was something inferior in my cat. (You get what you pay for attutude) Saikou is right in that is doesn't cost more to raise a show/breeding/ or pet kitten - but maybe a little extra is for knowing you have more potential in that kitten (in the breeders opinion)?


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## Clare Ferris

I asked another breeder her opinion which is what mine is as she has been breeding longer than me and it is obvious in the time she has been doing it she has not made a profit infact unless you mass produce kittens and cut corners then how can you???
Breeding cats properly does not give any reputable breeder a profit or if they are lucky maybe a small one which anyone with sense would put aside to use in their breeding program as there will come a time when you might need it.

If a person wants to make money then dont breed cats thats what I say as there really is nothing in it as far as I can see, unless you are selling alot of cats on active? cutting corners etc.

I may charge the same as others in my breed, does everyone else charge less than the average for their breed? I dont see why it has to be about money anyway, I breed because I have a love for cats and yes whilst I may charge more for active cats the number of sales of these cats are few and far between. I dont want to always be at a loss, it is an expensive hobby and the kitten sales allow me to carry on and develop/improve the breed the money goes back into it. 
Just because a breeder wants to try and cover costs so they are not at a loss all the time does not mean they are in it for the wrong reasons or out to make money, unless you breed you cant possibly know the expense and work a good breeder puts in.

I think people are merely looking at the price and not considering anything else, we should all know the expense good breeders have and what goes into breeding. People with catteries have a massive expense every few years with the up keep of the housing and costs of building them whereas someone with no stud and a couple of girls in the house wont have this expense just as their overall expenses are generally lower the less breeding animals they have.


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## Clare Ferris

mellowma said:


> I wouldn't get a Breeding Ragdoll kitten for under £550. No way. If anyone wants to sell me one contact me  As I would like 2 in the spring time instead of just one.
> 
> TBRCC doesn't help with their guide to pricing. Sorry TBRCC. :blush2:


So what would you pay for a good girl for breeding and is this more than the pet price I am guessing so by your comment. Why would you want to pay more and what would you charge for a breeding girl?


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## Milly22

messyhearts said:


> Wouldn't or couldn't?
> 
> I don't understand why you wouldn't. It's not a guarantee of quality.


Couldn't. No way. The only reason I got Poppy (cheaply) as the lady was new-ish to breeding and with Ice the man was retiring.

I have trawled Ragdoll websites the going rate is anything from £650 - £900 (which I was quoted last week) hahaha! Although I was quoted £800 last year and almost bought her, she was very very lovely.

As I say if anyone would like to sell me a Active Ragdoll in Spring-time/Summer for under £600 I would be happy to hear from them.  I won't though. :wink: hear from them I mean.


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## messyhearts

mellowma said:


> Couldn't. No way. The only reason I got Poppy (cheaply) as the lady was new-ish to breeding and with Ice the man was retiring.
> 
> I have trawled Ragdoll websites the going rate is anything from £650 - £900 (which I was quoted last week) hahaha! Although I was quoted £800 last year and almost bought her, she was very very lovely.
> 
> As I say if anyone would like to sell me a Active Ragdoll in Spring-time/Summer for under £600 I would be happy to hear from them.  I won't though. :wink: hear from them I mean.


Ah I see.

Yeah, this is what I dread when I am ready to start looking... :nonod:


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## Clare Ferris

mellowma said:


> Couldn't. No way. The only reason I got Poppy (cheaply) as the lady was new-ish to breeding and with Ice the man was retiring.
> 
> I have trawled Ragdoll websites the going rate is anything from £650 - £900 (which I was quoted last week) hahaha! Although I was quoted £800 last year and almost bought her, she was very very lovely.
> 
> As I say if anyone would like to sell me a Active Ragdoll in Spring-time/Summer for under £600 I would be happy to hear from them.  I won't though. :wink: hear from them I mean.


So have you asked them why they wont sell at pet price?


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> unless you breed you cant possibly know the expense and work a good breeder puts in.
> 
> I think people are merely looking at the price and not considering anything else, we should all know the expense good breeders have and what goes into breeding. People with catteries have a massive expense every few years with the up keep of the housing and costs of building them whereas someone with no stud and a couple of girls in the house wont have this expense just as their overall expenses are generally lower the less breeding animals they have.


Most of the people who have commented on here ARE breeders or who understand the cost and process of raising a litter of kittens!!!

It sounds to me as though you are now clutching at straws. In one breath you claim breeders charge more to recoup their expenses and they have a right to cover their costs by charging a premium for breeding cats and in the next state they don't sell that many for breed/show.

Bearing in mind the vast majority of kittens go to pet homes, then if all a breeder is seeking to do is recoup their costs then that should be reflected in the cost of a pet kitten and not in the cost of those few and far between show/breed cats!! That makes no sense.

In all breeds, breeders with studs have outdoor housing that require upkeep - still doesn't explain why breed A costs more than breed B those outlays are the same - infact you could argue that our very common short fine coated siamese require more heating that a rare full coated siberian therefore cost more to keep outside!!! So on that basis shouldn't the pet prices be higher ?

In actual fact a lot of people who have studs pay for the upkeep of that housing by having outside queens in. Even those with closed studs will have friends that use their boys. So again, keeping a stud does nothing to explain the difference in breed cost or the ridiculously high premiums charged for show/breed cat.

Again most people who do not have a stud have to go and pay to use one, travel to and from that stud maybe more than once  I don't see how any of this proves that there is a reason for one breed costing more than another or charging 3x or more for a show/breed cat.  

If you view your adult cats, males and females as part of the family first and foremost then ANY expense involved in keeping those cats is something you would have paid out for anyway - so why should it be passed onto a kitten buyer!!


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## Milly22

messyhearts said:


> Ah I see.
> 
> Yeah, this is what I dread when I am ready to start looking... :nonod:


I will sell you one for a decent price. When I get myself sorted which should be be next year. Promise.


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## messyhearts

mellowma said:


> I will sell you one for a decent price. When I get myself sorted which should be be next year. Promise.
> 
> Home - Sorcha Tabby Ragdolls Kittens for Sale Scotland kittens sorcha kitten breeder Edinburgh Scotland breeder


Lovely of you but I'm mesmerised by Birmans. I think it is similar price wise as Ragdolls.


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## spid

messyhearts said:


> Lovely of you but I'm mesmerised by Birmans. I think it is similar price wise as Ragdolls.


I'll sell you one at a decent price. £425 ish is the going rate.


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## Milly22

messyhearts said:


> Ah I see.
> 
> Yeah, this is what I dread when I am ready to start looking... :nonod:





Clare Ferris said:


> So have you asked them why they wont sell at pet price?


Yup " Because the TBRCC guidlines set the fee" ! 

In other words because they say so I *can* and it does not look bad.


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## Milly22

messyhearts said:


> Lovely of you but I'm mesmerised by Birmans. I think it is similar price wise as Ragdolls.


Ah yes they are lovely too.



spid said:


> I'll sell you one at a decent price. £425 ish is the going rate.


There you go!  sorted!


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## messyhearts

spid said:


> I'll sell you one at a decent price. £425 ish is the going rate.


Is that all the going rate is?

I may take you up on that kind offer one day, Tamsin. Only taking the first steps to prefixes at the moment anyway (Birman club pack came in the post today, so much to read through. ).


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## spid

messyhearts said:


> Is that all the going rate is? I know if I went back to my neuter's breeder it would at least be £475 if she would sell one.
> 
> I may take you up on that kind offer one day, Tamsin. Only taking the first steps to prefixes at the moment anyway (Birman club pack came in the post today, so much to read through. ).


It's certainly *all* my 'going rate' is likely to be - I just bought a new one for £425 - but it does seem to be who you know - I was personally recommended for this kitten by a close friend of the breeder so who knows. Yes, your neuters breeder wanted £475 from me too. We can talk nearer the time if need be. lol! But I know you, we've PM'd each other a few times etc so I'm happy to sell to you. You never know - by the time you are ready we might even live nearer each other! Birmans are a good breed price wise - stud fees are cheap compared to some breeds too (between £100 - 150) -- hubby wouldn't be happy for me to do this otherwise -- he knows we aren't going to make money but he doesn't want to lose masses either! Minnii is going back to stud this month . . . . .


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## messyhearts

spid said:


> It's certainly *all* my 'going rate' is likely to be - I just bought a new one for £425 - but it does seem to be who you know - I was personally recommended for this kitten by a close friend of the breeder so who knows. Yes, your neuters breeder wanted £475 from me too. We can talk nearer the time if need be. lol! But I know you, we've PM'd each other a few times etc so I'm happy to sell to you. You never know - by the time you are ready we might even live nearer each other! Birmans are a good breed price wise - stud fees are cheap compared to some breeds too (between £100 - 150) -- hubby wouldn't be happy for me to do this otherwise -- he knows we aren't going to make money but he doesn't want to lose masses either! Minnii is going back to stud this month . . . . .


Ah right. I get ya.

I'm so glad I like a breed that are established & not "new" like Sphynx etc. I would quickly be told to sling it by hubbie if I was paying £1000 just to get a queen.

I really appreciate your offer, Tamsin! I don't think distance will be an issue if the kitten is right. I know you have been looking for a show kitten from Minnii so hopefully third time's a charm for you! Have you decided on a stud?


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Most of the people who have commented on here ARE breeders or who understand the cost and process of raising a litter of kittens!!!
> 
> It sounds to me as though you are now clutching at straws. In one breath you claim breeders charge more to recoup their expenses and they have a right to cover their costs by charging a premium for breeding cats and in the next state they don't sell that many for breed/show.
> 
> Bearing in mind the vast majority of kittens go to pet homes, then if all a breeder is seeking to do is recoup their costs then that should be reflected in the cost of a pet kitten and not in the cost of those few and far between show/breed cats!! That makes no sense.
> 
> In all breeds, breeders with studs have outdoor housing that require upkeep - still doesn't explain why breed A costs more than breed B those outlays are the same - infact you could argue that our very common short fine coated siamese require more heating that a rare full coated siberian therefore cost more to keep outside!!! So on that basis shouldn't the pet prices be higher ?
> 
> In actual fact a lot of people who have studs pay for the upkeep of that housing by having outside queens in. Even those with closed studs will have friends that use their boys. So again, keeping a stud does nothing to explain the difference in breed cost or the ridiculously high premiums charged for show/breed cat.
> 
> Again most people who do not have a stud have to go and pay to use one, travel to and from that stud maybe more than once  I don't see how any of this proves that there is a reason for one breed costing more than another or charging 3x or more for a show/breed cat.
> 
> If you view your adult cats, males and females as part of the family first and foremost then ANY expense involved in keeping those cats is something you would have paid out for anyway - so why should it be passed onto a kitten buyer!!


you misunderstand my point I am saying why some breeds cost more than others and also trying to explain why I feel breed cats cost more? I said they dont sell many for breeding because I felt asthough you were implying they were raking it in selling all their cats on active. Getting a breed established in the first place costs more. seems most of the people here are not willing to pay for than £300-400 for a breed cat, well I am glad you did not have to import a new breed otherwise forget it, try adding a couple of zeros onto the price and you will get an idea of what some breeders have had to pay to allow pet owners the privelage of owning a new breed.

It was a general example of a cost a breeder has who has cats outside not to explain why there is a difference in breed prices. The differences in breed depend on what they cost to buy to start with and where they come from i.e abroad etc. The difference in a show/breed cat is the type which you could argue does cost more to produce if you have had to pay more for a good example of the breed, the showing involved with the cats to be able to know they are of a good enough standard,breeding rights, breeder support etc. as I have already said, would be a hell of alot less hassle to just sell pets. People who have not paid more will argue that it does not make a difference. Raising the litter may cost the same regardless of quality but a breeder with a good cat may want to keep them themselves or decide to show them before they are sold to get an expert opinion on them etc.

You say why should the owner have the cost passed onto them and again with a new breed that has been imported it has cost alot more to start and maintain the breeding of these cats than an established breed fact, has anyone paid £4000 for a stud cat, I dont think so?

the breed came over here at great expense to the breeders so if they want the chance to own that breed they have to be prepared for the fact that they cost more for the above reasons, without these breeders they would not get the chance to own one unless they want to pay a few thousands to import from America or Russia seen as they are so common over there

A cat that is part of the family who are pets are normally neutered to start with so you wont have all the vet bills and testing / mating expense with a pet, so ofcourse it costs a breeder more to keep their pets entire and breed them to be able to provide pet owners with kittens aswell as their own enjoyment ofcourse. If it was all for the love of the breed and not about covering costs then as I have said before surely breeders who are true hobby breeders would give them away!

This is getting pointless I have made my point and that of other breeders who charge more, If people choose to charge the same regardless thats upto them, but it does seem as though im not the only one who charges more... like I said people dont have to pay it and there are plenty of breeder friends who would buy a nice cat from me for breeding if a new breeder was not prepared to pay it for a better quality kitten. Good kittens from a show point of view dont come along often so if that is what they want the cat for then they have to be prepared to pay alittle extra otherwise why would a breeder give up a good cat to someone else, or thats how I see it?


----------



## spid

messyhearts said:


> Ah right. I get ya.
> 
> I'm so glad I like a breed that are established & not "new" like Sphynx etc. I would quickly be told to sling it by hubbie if I was paying £1000 just to get a queen.
> 
> I really appreciate your offer, Tamsin! I don't think distance will be an issue if the kitten is right. I know you have been looking for a show kitten from Minnii so hopefully third time's a charm for you! Have you decided on a stud?


yep - she's going to Gayemaudi Sunny Jim - so all seals and chocolates (with or without tabby)


----------



## messyhearts

spid said:


> yep - she's going to Gayemaudi Sunny Jim - so all seals and chocolates (with or without tabby)


Ooh yummy! But I am bias to the seal tabby.  Would you be looking to keep one if she is right?


----------



## spid

messyhearts said:


> Ooh yummy! But I am bias to the seal tabby.  Would you be looking to keep one if she is right?


possibly it depends


----------



## Clare Ferris

Can I just ask people what they would charge if the going rate for a breed cat was £800 in their breed minimum and £400-500 stud fee. Would you charge the same as you paid or sell for well below average ie. £500 for a breed girl or £300 regardless?

If you sold well below average would you not think it would attract even more byb's who thought they could get a bargain breed and sell kittens on at full price that everyone else charges?


----------



## messyhearts

Clare Ferris said:


> Can I just ask people what they would charge if the going rate for a breed cat was £800 in their breed minimum and £400-500 stud fee. Would you charge the same as you paid or sell for well below average ie. £500 for a breed girl or £300 regardless?
> 
> If you sold well below average would you not think it would attract even more byb's who thought they could get a bargain breed and sell kittens on at full price that everyone else charges?


What I would do (I'm not a breeder yet) is I would advertise a litter on the breed website only to begin with, see what enquiries I get. Hopefully a good kind if they are looking on that website. If that doesn't work (highly likely in this economic climate) I would look to other websites like this one or Kitten list to advertise but it would be POA. I would probably look to ask for £375 or £400 depending on how much it costs to feed the kittens, pay for their vaccs & chips (I would insist on chipping). I would charge the same for a queen.

THOUGH, if the stud was as dear as £500 & that was the average fee then I would probably ask for that for a kitten to at least cover that cost (if I had one kitten) and any further kitten in the litter would go towards food, litter, vaccs, chips & registrations & HOPEFULLY cover it. I am assuming this is why Sibes are £500 for pet kittens if the stud is so steep. I would probably turn to getting a stud myself if stud fees were so high. I would always ask for one fee for a kitten regardless of quality or intentions.

I wouldn't be worried about BYB as I get to say no if they want a kitten.


----------



## spid

I have to say Claire - I wouldn't be able to justify those costs to hubby and so wouldn't be breeding those cats - I was lucky in many respects that Birmans aren't expensive - but I don't have unlimited funds and £2K for a breeding queen just wouldn't have been feasible. So I can't answer your question as wouldn't ever be in that position. However, I think lower prices are actually less likely to attract byb as they don't see immediate quick profits by selling all the kittens for masses of money. Birman byb breeders are lucky to get £200 a kitten, and birmans tend to have small litters. So it is a lot of work for not too much gain. With the Bengals, for example, they tend to have large litters, and girls can be sold by byb for over £800 (still loads cheaper than breeders, but still a nice healthy profit). So I have to say higher prices are more likely to encourage byb than lower prices where the general public can see exactly where their extra £150 ish goes (jabs, registration, an extra 5-6 weeks food and litter, insurance, kitten pack, pedigree etc). But it is difficult to know where to pitch prices - if you make your prices less than every one else then what woud the buyers perception be? Are your prices lower because you are really a byb or because you offer less quality? It is hard. It is easy to say don't charge a premium but hard to know what to charge.


----------



## Clare Ferris

messyhearts said:


> What I would do (I'm not a breeder yet) is I would advertise a litter on the breed website only to begin with, see what enquiries I get. Hopefully a good kind if they are looking on that website. If that doesn't work (highly likely in this economic climate) I would look to other websites like this one or Kitten list to advertise but it would be POA. I would probably look to ask for £375 or £400 depending on how much it costs to feed the kittens, pay for their vaccs & chips (I would insist on chipping). I would charge the same for a queen.
> 
> THOUGH, if the stud was as dear as £500 & that was the average fee then I would probably ask for that for a kitten to at least cover that cost (if I had one kitten) and any further kitten in the litter would go towards food, litter, vaccs, chips & registrations & HOPEFULLY cover it. I am assuming this is why Sibes are £500 for pet kittens if the stud is so steep. I would probably turn to getting a stud myself if stud fees were so high. I would always ask for one fee for a kitten regardless of quality or intentions.
> 
> I wouldn't be worried about BYB as I get to say no if they want a kitten.


so what if you paid £800 for your girls and what if the stud was going to be an import costing you about £4000? as most wont sell studs in this country to other u.k breeders, or at least any good breeders anyway
A big difference between £100 for a stud fee and £425 for a breed girl?
Hence reason for different prices in breeds I guess, when you have one kitten that has only covered you stud fee and nothing else puts the breeder at a great loss and not even covering there costs!
How would you know someone was a byb ?


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> A cat that is part of the family who are pets are normally neutered to start with so you wont have all the vet bills and testing / mating expense with a pet, so ofcourse it costs a breeder more to keep their pets entire and breed them to be able to provide pet owners with kittens aswell as their own enjoyment ofcourse. If it was all for the love of the breed and not about covering costs then as I have said before surely breeders who are true hobby breeders would give them away!


No one has said that the breeder does not have the right to charge for the cost of raising a kitten, and has to give away all their kittens to be classed as a hobby breeder, you are now trying to twist everything to muddy the argument. You seem confused about what constitutes a cost of raising a kitten.

The cost of a stud fee, pre stud testing, feeding Mum extra and costs directly involved with raising kittens all count towards additional cost of raising a litter, and it is those costs that a hobby breeder will attempt to recoup in the price of a kitten. Again those do not vary dramatically per breed nor do they vary between show/breed kitten and pet kitten. Anything charged over and above that cost constitutes profit and takes you out of the hobby breeder bracket!!

The costs associated with a hobby that the breeder does for their own pleasure - buying their cats in the first instance, which as a hobby breeder are family pets first and foremost, whether you import or not, showing etc do not form part of the cost associated with raising a kitten. If you wish to view your breed cats as part of the cost of breeding then thats not breeding as a hobby!

I love the way you view a discussion as pointless when you have nothing further to add  This certainly is NOT a pointless discussion and maybe if more new breeders/owners took a stance and were not prepared to pay the ridiculous prices charged by some so called "hobby" breeders, and those breeders were left with kittens to sell this whole practice would stop.


----------



## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> No one has said that the breeder does not have the right to charge for the cost of raising a kitten, and has to give away all their kittens to be classed as a hobby breeder, you are now trying to twist everything to muddy the argument. You seem confused about what constitutes a cost of raising a kitten.
> 
> The cost of a stud fee, pre stud testing, feeding Mum extra and costs directly involved with raising kittens all count towards additional cost of raising a litter, and it is those costs that a hobby breeder will attempt to recoup in the price of a kitten. Again those do not vary dramatically per breed nor do they vary between show/breed kitten and pet kitten. Anything charged over and above that cost constitutes profit and takes you out of the hobby breeder bracket!!
> 
> The costs associated with a hobby that the breeder does for their own pleasure - buying their cats in the first instance, which as a hobby breeder are family pets first and foremost, whether you import or not, showing etc do not form part of the cost associated with raising a kitten. If you wish to view your breed cats as part of the cost of breeding then thats not breeding as a hobby!
> 
> I love the way you view a discussion as pointless when you have nothing further to add  This certainly is NOT a pointless discussion and maybe if more new breeders/owners took a stance and were not prepared to pay the ridiculous prices charged by some so called "hobby" breeders, and those breeders were left with kittens to sell this whole practice would stop.


Read my previous message please re costs of stud and breeding queens and I think you will find a big difference, well seen as I have not even recouped my costs yet or doubt I will judging by what other breeders have spent I guess I am still in the confines of what *youclass* a hobby breeder, I have plenty to add but it seems pointless and not worth arguing about.
I dont think you understand what is involved in establishing a new breed and the costs involved


----------



## Milly22

To be honest I was a little scared to go with GCCF and breed pedigree cats. As some/most of you may know my first cat had no papers, I still followed GCCF guidelines and sold them no bother, I still get queries. 

Lots of people who came to visit said they were put off by breeders prices and the fact that they came across as stuck up on websites etc and these days and would rather deal with someone like myself, Pedigree Cat at half the price, fully vaccinated, vet checked and wormed etc, cared for in the house by myself, bedding changed daily, lots of TLC, clean bottom, brushed with talcum powder after baths. Only thing missing was the pedigree paper.

This is why it has taken me so long to talk my OH around to the fact I am doing the correct thing buying all these registered cats. He worries we won't sell them as there are so many BYBs selling the same thing without the papers.

Anyway, that's possibly a different story altogether. 

I sold my unregistered kittens for £275 will sell registered for £375 most likely as that is the going rate. 

Although tabbies are special are they not and I know I could get £400 easily! 

Some people don't bother about papers they just want a Ragdoll at a cheap price. Even though I know Poppy/Ice babies will be outstanding in comparison to Mistys. Well I think they will.


----------



## Milly22

Debating Claire 

I don't do arguing. Anyway it's way past my switch off time.


----------



## messyhearts

Clare Ferris said:


> so what if you paid £800 for your girls and what if the stud was going to be an import costing you about £4000? as most wont sell studs in this country to other u.k breeders, or at least any good breeders anyway
> A big difference between £100 for a stud fee and £425 for a breed girl?
> Hence reason for different prices in breeds I guess, when you have one kitten that has only covered you stud fee and nothing else puts the breeder at a great loss and not even covering there costs!
> How would you know someone was a byb ?


I wouldn't pass the price of my breeding queen on & I would probably use a stud that hopefully doesn't have limits to breed a stud of my own.

But as with Tamsin, I wouldn't be able to handle a breed so expensive anyway.

I think if it is so expensive then perhaps PET prices should be raised instead of show or breed as it sounds that breeding is expensive for rarer breeds but why exclude people who have an interest in the breed by charging so much in particular for a special kitten with certain markings or an active slip?? It's still absurd I'm afraid Clare. Breeders who do all that are making a rod for their own back & for the breed's back in my opinion.

I would thoroughly vet prospective homes & owners. That is not to say I am immune to all lies people can spurn but I should hope my scepticism holds me in good stead.  There's an argument for BYB interest either way if you increase or decrease breeding prices but to be honest I wouldn't advertise it to people until they approached me & then I could assess whether I would even consider selling an active kitten to them before telling them so what difference would the fee make at that point??! :huh:


----------



## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> Read my previous message please re costs of stud and breeding queens and I think you will find a big difference,


Read mine!! Cost of initial cats - as presumably *much loved pets *first and foremost as you are a hobby breeder - do not count!!! So no, on that basis, cost of *raising a litter * does not differ dramatically from one breed to another. 

If the cost of purchasing a breed cat is the only difference in the cost of raising a kitten - putting the fact it shouldn't be included aside - isn't that a chicken and egg situation!!

You charge more for your kittens because you were charged more for your kittens  If you weren't charged more for your kittens then you would have no excuse to charge any differently to any other breeder. Which goes back to my point, if all hobby breeders charged for the cost of raising a litter only (and just to clarify that DOESN'T include the cost of the initial breed cats) then the cycle would be stopped  True hobby breeders, happy kitten buyers


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## Miss.PuddyCat

2000$ for a Ragdoll

Ragdoll cats for sale - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto


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## Kalipha

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> 2000$ for a Ragdoll
> 
> Ragdoll cats for sale - Toronto Cats & Kittens For Sale - Kijiji Toronto


No - $2000 for three ragdolls  2 of them pregnant. So, potentially, like 15 ragdolls


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## Biawhiska

I waonder when some of these people charge stupid money actually care about their cats or just see them as ways to make money? do people get a stud so they think they can charge £500 a time for a queen to visit. All these vast figures must make some people think PROFIT. But, how do they cope when things go wrong? Traumatic births, loosing kittens, do you think they actually care or do you think they think, oh sh*t there goes £800 per kitten  it makes me wonder. I know some peple charge loads for breed kittens even if they've not been breeding long, see it as easy money. It's so sad and gives decent breeders a bad name.


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## ChinaBlue

Just as a matter of interest how many of you belong to breed clubs and do your breed clubs offer a guide on pricing?

For instance The British Ragdoll Cat Club have a price _guide_ (see bottom of page) The British Ragdoll Cat Club as do all the Ragdoll Breed Clubs.

But ultimately prices vary from breeder to breeder - I know of a breeder in the south selling pet quality kits for £500+ so goodness only knows what they sell their breeding cats for! A "pet" Ragdoll kitten, very broadly speaking, will usually be around £350 - £400 - again depending on area etc.
I have to say I am not aware of any Ragdoll breeder who sells breeding cats at the same price as a "pet" - there may be some but as I have said I am not aware of them. When the new colour Raggies were just starting to take off here I did ring a breeder to see how much one would be - at that time (about 9 years ago) she was quoting £650 for a pet - now they are just the same price as the traditional colours/patterns.

I would add that stud fees in the Ragdolls can be anywhere from £200 - £450 and the odd one or two I have heard charge a little more!

I know some people will go for a byb for a "cheap" pedigree - but at the end of the day a "pedigree" with no papers is, to all in intents and purposes, not a pedigree but an expensive moggie. (Nothing wrong with moggies I may add!)


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## Miss.PuddyCat

Kalipha said:


> No - $2000 for three ragdolls  2 of them pregnant. So, potentially, like 15 ragdolls


I still think thats rather alot for all three plus the fact there their pregnant.


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## Clare Ferris

ChinaBlue said:


> Just as a matter of interest how many of you belong to breed clubs and do your breed clubs offer a guide on pricing?
> 
> For instance The British Ragdoll Cat Club have a price _guide_ (see bottom of page) The British Ragdoll Cat Club as do all the Ragdoll Breed Clubs.
> 
> But ultimately prices vary from breeder to breeder - I know of a breeder in the south selling pet quality kits for £500+ so goodness only knows what they sell their breeding cats for! A "pet" Ragdoll kitten, very broadly speaking, will usually be around £350 - £400 - again depending on area etc.
> I have to say I am not aware of any Ragdoll breeder who sells breeding cats at the same price as a "pet" - there may be some but as I have said I am not aware of them. When the new colour Raggies were just starting to take off here I did ring a breeder to see how much one would be - at that time (about 9 years ago) she was quoting £650 for a pet - now they are just the same price as the traditional colours/patterns.
> 
> I would add that stud fees in the Ragdolls can be anywhere from £200 - £450 and the odd one or two I have heard charge a little more!
> 
> I know some people will go for a byb for a "cheap" pedigree - but at the end of the day a "pedigree" with no papers is, to all in intents and purposes, not a pedigree but an expensive moggie. (Nothing wrong with moggies I may add!)


well I was getting the impression here that it was just my breed that charge more so thanks for that. would you pay more for a good breeding girl?
I agree without papers you cannot sell a cat as a pedigree so technically as you say they are a moggie, A pedigree has a recorded parentage otherwise how do you know what is in that cats line? Ofcourse people will be attracted to a pedigree look a like that is cheaper as it all comes down to money like anything else in this world, everyone wants a cheap deal!


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## Clare Ferris

messyhearts said:


> I wouldn't pass the price of my breeding queen on & I would probably use a stud that hopefully doesn't have limits to breed a stud of my own.
> 
> But as with Tamsin, I wouldn't be able to handle a breed so expensive anyway.
> 
> I think if it is so expensive then perhaps PET prices should be raised instead of show or breed as it sounds that breeding is expensive for rarer breeds but why exclude people who have an interest in the breed by charging so much in particular for a special kitten with certain markings or an active slip?? It's still absurd I'm afraid Clare. Breeders who do all that are making a rod for their own back & for the breed's back in my opinion.
> 
> I would thoroughly vet prospective homes & owners. That is not to say I am immune to all lies people can spurn but I should hope my scepticism holds me in good stead.  There's an argument for BYB interest either way if you increase or decrease breeding prices but to be honest I wouldn't advertise it to people until they approached me & then I could assess whether I would even consider selling an active kitten to them before telling them so what difference would the fee make at that point??! :huh:


Well every worthwile good stud does have limits and they are all no studs to be sold from the mating or you can keep your own but with restrictions, I want the freedom to be able to breed as I like and not be dictated to by the stud owner and some demands are just silly.
I think upping the pet price would make things more difficult as they are already more than some breeds so making my kittens more expensive than other breeders of the same breed would mean I may struggle selling pets.
Well as for breeding cats I dont plan on selling many for this and as you said I would probably not advertise them as such just word of mouth through other breeders I guess.


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## ChinaBlue

We initially bought our first breeding girl for showing but after a lot of thinking and chatting to her breeders we changed her over to the active and paid the breeders the difference between pet/show and breed - which was about £200I think at that time. I really can't comment on other breeds but as I have stated within the Ragdoll breed paying more for your breeding cats is the norm and most breeders go by the guide prices suggested by our breed clubs.


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## Soupie

I was under the impression most breeders charged more for cats on active register


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## lizward

I don't.

Liz


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## Soupie

Clearly some don't Liz but if you read kitten ads and look at breed sites and breeder sites, the majority appear to .....


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## Milly22

Soupie said:


> Clearly some don't Liz but if you read kitten ads and look at breed sites and breeder sites, the majority appear to .....


Yes they definitely do Ive been looking all morning, well not *all* morning but most of it and breeding girls range from £600-£900. Pets £350-£450.

Liz why don't you start breeding Ragdolls, then sell me some ? Well one


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## Biawhiska

Think charging more maybe depends on the breed?  not sure.


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## Saikou

Just because something is viewed as the accepted norm doesn't make it right!!!! With the increased scrutiny into breeding of both cats and dogs from various organisations, seeing those higher prices charged, especially those in the £1000s whilst still referring to themselves as a hobby breeder gives a completely false impression. Especially when the vast majority of people can not get their heads around a cat being worth a few hundred!!!!

I think if breeders want the status quo to continue then they need to be seriously looking into that practice. There is no real justification for charging more, and simply saying "its the norm" is not a good enough reason!!

If you want to charge a premium for certain types of kittens, do so, but do not refer to yourselves as hobby breeders and ruin it for us genuine hobby breeders.


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## Lulusmum

I have never charged more for a cat on the Active. But I no of people within my breed that claim the have exclusive lines hence the price hike, but not the hundreds of pounds other breeds ask for.

I have only ever purchase 3 breeding queens, 1 of them never had any kittens and the other only ever had 1 litter before she was diagnosed with Cysts. Luckly I never paid over the odds for these girls, and the both came from lines full of Grands. The 3rd girl had no titled cats in her pedigree and her offspring have been some of the best Kittens I have ever bred.


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## Jen26

In my breed an active cat is around £100-150 extra, I have both paid this and charged it.

I was happy to pay the extra, especially for my new girl who is from imported dutch lines that only a handfull of people will have. 

I still would class myself as a hobby breeder, I had just one litter last year which for once I came out with a £300 profit, I used this towards a new run


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## Saikou

I wouldn't say that too loud you will that the tax man knocking on your door 

It does prove the point though that charging more for active cats does constitute a profit, and a very reasonable one for 1 litter. You get breeders who have serveral litters a year.........then what looks like a small profit starts to add up and attract interest.


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## Jen26

Saikou said:


> I wouldn't say that too loud you will that the tax man knocking on your door
> 
> It does prove the point though that charging more for active cats does constitute a profit, and a very reasonable one for 1 litter. You get breeders who have serveral litters a year.........then what looks like a small profit starts to add up and attract interest.


All this litter went as pets so I suppose if I had of sold all 3 for £100 more, a small profit would soon turn into quite a big one ( I would never do this though) I much prefer them to go to pet homes

For some breeders who have 5 or 6 queens who have 2 litters a year from them must be making a tidy sum I would Imagine

Previous years, Ive had disastors and been hundreds out of pocket .


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## 2flowers

Hi all, when I decided to have Bibi as my first potential breeding queen her breeder asked me what I thought was a 'fair price' as she rarely sells on the active. I explained what I paid for my neuters (from a different breeder) and we agreed on £500 (I had offered £600, but she kindly refused )

Like Jen26, my girl is from pure Dutch lines, both father and mother being imported by her breeder at a cost of several thousand pounds, so I think the extra £100 was well worth it to have 'new lines'. I found out when I had her DNA tested that she carries the fawn gene too (which was a possibility as it is 3 generations back). This colour in the bsh has not gained GCCF Champion status here yet, so she really is special and I would have gladly paid a bit more than I did to have the opportunity to share those lines as her breeder has made a massive investment in trying to improve the breed and introduce the newer colours to the UK.

I will hopefully have my first litter soon :smile5:


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## Soupie

Jen26 said:


> All this litter went as pets so I suppose if I had of sold all 3 for £100 more, a small profit would soon turn into quite a big one ( I would never do this though) I much prefer them to go to pet homes
> 
> For some breeders who have 5 or 6 queens who have 2 litters a year from them must be making a tidy sum I would Imagine
> 
> Previous years, Ive had disastors and been hundreds out of pocket .


and actually tax wise you would offset that income against the previous year's loss. One year profit does not stop you being a hobby breeder IMHO - some years you will be up and some you will be down ......


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## Saikou

That may be the case, but do you REALLY want to go down the route of having to keep accounts to prove all that!! Sorry but if you are charging more for your kittens than it costs to raise them, thats not a hobby period, whether or not you made losses. If your aim is to gain income from breeding - no matter how small that income maybe, thats not a hobby. If you are having to keep accounts to prove the offset of losses against profit again that is not a hobby.

It is obvious from this thread that some breeds are charging more per kitten than it costs to raise that kitten and where more for active/show kittens is the norm and the breeders within those breeds like that situation. That may even be what attracted them to those breeds in the first place. To date no one has come up with a valid reason for either, other than its their choice to to it and/or everyone else does. If these ridiculous prices do attract attention from some organisation where we end up having to keep accounts - firstly well done to all those who contributed to that situation - but if we end up having to be treated as small businesses, I have also read that if you are counted as a business and continually run at a loss that you can be penalised for that too!!!

One of the big reasons I have heard from breeders who have moved from the GCCF to TICA or FIFE is that they are fed up with the red tape, rules and regs etc - well they will seem like pussy cats if you end up having to deal with the Inland Revenue and any other government body set up to regulate breeders.

I actually think its quite selfish behaviour


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## Soupie

Saikou said:


> That may be the case, but do you REALLY want to go down the route of having to keep accounts to prove all that!! Sorry but if you are charging more for your kittens than it costs to raise them, thats not a hobby period, whether or not you made losses. If your aim is to gain income from breeding - no matter how small that income maybe, thats not a hobby. If you are having to keep accounts to prove the offset of losses against profit again that is not a hobby.
> 
> COLOR]




My aim and that of many hobby breeders is not to gain income but it may be in a particularly good year you make a small amount of profit unintentionally even charging prices at the lower end of the market. The flip side of the arugment is should hobby breeders adjust their prices every year to take into account how much that particular litter has cost to raise?

For example taking a 'cheaper' and less rare breed. 7 Siamese kittens at £300 or £350 pounds a kitten - I don't know what they cost to raise but does it really cost between £2,100 to £2,450 to raise the litter?

Just because someone charges lower prices - they may still themselves be 'guilty' of making a profit ......

I keep records of expenditure anyway - that's my OCD like solicitor tendency :blush: - but surely to be a truly hobby breeder you should keep records to ensure you are NOT making a profit ....


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## Saikou

I actually made my comments in general not directed at you personally. The fact remains anyway you look at it the term hobby and profit do not go together  I still maintain, that if you wish to be termed a hobby breeder then you should be charging no more for kittens than the cost of raising them. Absolutely nothing wrong in making a profit from breeding - its just not hobby breeding 

I love this whole rarity excuse. Us poor siamese breeders with our common lowly breed   Seeing as you decided to target my breed - aren't selkirks effectively cross breeds using the genetic mutation that spontaneously appeared in a moggie litter. Not really rare in terms of a true breeds. A manufactured breed in effect, so why should they cost more than a true breed in their own right ? :nonod: :nonod:

I have no wish to get into a debate about why one breed should be able to charge more than another, my maintained point is that if you are a hobby breeder you should not be charging more than the cost of raising those kittens what ever that cost may be  So as you cite £350 to raise a siamese kitten = profit, how much are those breeds who charge £500, £600 raking in per kitten ? Add on top of that premiums for show/active kittens and thats more than just a little profit wouldn't you say. Still hobby breeding - I think not.



Soupie said:


> I don't know what they cost to raise but does it really cost between £2,100 to £2,450 to raise the litter?.


Maybe when you've actually raised a litter Sarah you will be able to answer that one!


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## Jen26

To be honest I think I charge a fair price, I had £300 left from my last litter after buying food , litter, vaccinations, worming and one kitten needed a minor op. 
I didn't count stud fee, toys, fresh meats, pkd and snap test, or things like petrol , extra heating and showing which I have noticed on a few sites people do include, I think when it comes to the point were you are adding up every penny the hobby line has most definatly been crossed.

I don't think we will ever agree on this one


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## Jen26

Just wondering if any of you have heard about the visits to breeders in Wales?Cardiff I think??


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## dharma66

Surely from an economic perspective, its quite simple?

There are several factors at work.

Someone who is a hobby breeder may not be intending to make money. However, the number of cats in a litter varies. If we take fixed costs of say £600 to raise a litter, with additional costs of £200 per kitten, then for the average four kitten litter, we are talking about £1400 to raise the litter, give or take.

That makes it about £350 per kitten, which is the average going rate for many breeds.

However, suppose you only have two kittens in a litter. That litter will cost £1000 to raise, but will only bring in £750, because if you try to charge £500 for each kitten, you are unlikely to get any buyers. With a single kitten litter, to break even you'd need to charge £800 for that one kitten!

So to protect themselves against possible future losses, its not unreasonable for breeders, even hobby breeders, to charge a slight premium to cover this. In business terms, thats not considered a profit, it is considered protection against future liability, though to the average person in the street, it does look like a profit.

For rare breeds there are two further considerations.

The breeds very often originate in other countries, where often commerce is much more competitive, and the breeders overseas often charge enormous fees to foreign (i.e. UK) breeders.

So if you have two or three UK breeders importing queens and studs at the cost of many, many thousands, it's unrealistic to expect those breeders to charge 'normal' rates for kittens - that would basically amount to charity.

Then, because the buyers of breeding kittens from those importers have paid over the odds, they also have to charge over the odds. But a little less, because there is now more competition in the market: buyers of kittens can now choose to go to a first or second generation breeder, so second generation breeders will tend to charge a little less to encourage buyers, which causes first generation breeders to drop their prices also. But it takes may years for the prices to drop to the level of 'common' breeds.

That's why importers of rare breeds are often very reluctant to sell kittens on the active register: they know that it will take several years of breeding for them to recoup the cost of their imported cats, and they want to be able to keep kitten prices high so than get these costs back as soon as possible.

And that touches on the last factor: market forces. Rarer breeds are dearer because they are rarer. That's a plain simple law of economics. If demand is higher than supply, prices will rise, simply because the seller can raise prices, but still find buyers prepared to pay. When supply exceeds demand, prices start to fall, because sellers find they are struggling to find buyers. When supply matches demand (i.e. there just the right number of kittens for sale to almost exactly match the number that people want to buy), then prices become stable.

The argument about whether it is morally correct to charge more just because you can get away with it is the argument between Capitalism and Marxism. Whether we like or not, we live in a free trade economy, and so people will charge what people will pay. For common breeds this is relatively low, because there is so much choice for the buyer, for rare breeds it is relatively high, because there is very little choice for the buyer.


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## Saikou

Jen26 said:


> Just wondering if any of you have heard about the visits to breeders in Wales?Cardiff I think??


I have, its the start of alot more investigation I reckon. Hence my point about charging a premium. People advertising kittens for over £1000 does not look good!!


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## Saikou

dharma66 said:


> Surely from an economic perspective, its quite simple?


There in lies the crux of the matter - it shouldn't be from a purely economic perspective. The debate is not really over the difference in a few hundred per litter (not per kitten) but where the difference is £1000s per litter.

Rarity shouldn't come into it for a hobby breeder, the kittens aren't a product. If you view it as such then you are breeding for the wrong reasons. If you get into developing a breed or saving a rare breed from another country, as a HOBBY, surely most of the aim shoud be altruistic not financial.

There is a lot more at play than just the cost of the "product", you have to think of the breed as a whole and its future.


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## dharma66

I get your point, but as soon as something is sold, then it is an economic matter, whether we like it or not. It's simply not possible to opt out of economic laws, just like you can't opt out of gravity. 

If you are saying that breeders of rare breeds should bear the extra costs out of the goodness of their hearts, then why not say that ALL breeders should do that, and that all kittens should be free. 

I'd you read my entire post, you'll see that nowhere do I defend anyone making a profit, but I do defend people trying to avoid making a loss.


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## Soupie

> I actually made my comments in general not directed at you personally. The fact remains anyway you look at it the term hobby and profit do not go together  I still maintain, that if you wish to be termed a hobby breeder then you should be charging no more for kittens than the cost of raising them. Absolutely nothing wrong in making a profit from breeding - its just not hobby breeding


I agree but playing Devil's Advocate the question has to be asked then should a breeder alter their kitten prices on a litter by litter basis so they only cover costs and don't make a profit or do you take an overview. You made the comment about Jen making a modest profit one year when every other she has made a loss.....



> I love this whole rarity excuse. Us poor siamese breeders with our common lowly breed   Seeing as you decided to target my breed - aren't selkirks effectively cross breeds using the genetic mutation that spontaneously appeared in a moggie litter. Not really rare in terms of a true breeds. A manufactured breed in effect, so why should they cost more than a true breed in their own right ? :nonod: :nonod:


I didn't 'target' your breed for any other reason than it was one where I knew a broad price range as I know lots of Siamese breeders. It was not a personal attack and I don't really see quite why you have to be so agressive. FWIW most Selkirks are selling for the around £350 - £450 for curlies so hardly at the top end of the market judging by this thread. I have been lucky too as I have never paid a premium for my show or breed babies.



> I have no wish to get into a debate about why one breed should be able to charge more than another, my maintained point is that if you are a hobby breeder you should not be charging more than the cost of raising those kittens what ever that cost may be


If you read my posts carefully nowhere have I said one breed should cost more than another. I picked up on your point that if we looked carefully at it I expect more hobby breeders are making a profit than they might realise on one litter but then losses on another. At what point do you say they are not a hobby breeder? when they make a modest profit on one litter? The only way to know you are not making a profit OR a loss is to keep records of everything spent and then cost out the kitten sale prices accordingly - how many hobby breeders DO that!



> Maybe when you've actually raised a litter Sarah you will be able to answer that one!


Which is why I asked does it really cost that much to raise a litter? There was no animosity - it was a genuine question.


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## messyhearts

I understand higher kitten prices for breeds that are more expensive to import or stud BUT I do not understand why active or show kittens cost a different amount. Why wait for someone genuine who actually wants to help with the breed & then seemingly rip them off because the breeder was originally? It isn't a deterrent so that isn't a reason; it's simply passing the expense down the line.


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## Saikou

dharma66 said:


> If you are saying that breeders of rare breeds should bear the extra costs out of the goodness of their hearts, then why not say that ALL breeders should do that, and that all kittens should be free.


Any entire cats whether used for breeding or not should be viewed and treated as family pets first and foremost whether imported or not. Not as part of a business expense to be recouped.

In an existing breed, anyone that imports does so ultimately benefit their breeding program and the gene pool at large which should be any breeders aim. If they then decide to charge a premium for any active kittens going out then where does that end? That breeder then does the same as they were charged extra and so on and so on.

In any hobby you have costs establishing that hobby. You shouldn't go into with the intention of recouping all those costs. I suppose it comes down to where you draw the line for what are acceptable costs to recoup and what are not. If you view the entires you have as family pets then you would still have the cost of purchasing and maintaining those cats whether you bred from them or not. Thats the view I take so my line for recouping cost of bringing up a kitten starts after that point.

btw I did read your whole post just didn't quote the whole thing due to its length


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## Kalipha

It is indeed a case of where you draw the line in what you consider a cost viable to pass on. Lily is my pet first and foremost but, purely as a pet, she is not several hundred pounds 'better' than Jasper, my loopy black half burmese mog-thing. And so yes, I view the difference in these prices as a cost of breeding, and it would be nice (though I do not expect) to eventually get that back from kitten sales. Everyone has the right to draw that line where ever they like - I don't think they have the right to look at other people, judge them in relation to their own 'line' and imply anyone who thinks differently of not considering their much loved animal pets, instead as "walking wombs and/or sperm banks". 

By my own measure this is a hobby to me, by yours it is a (really bad run, no / miniscule profit, high maintenance, high risk) business. It's each to their own, and nothing more.


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## Saikou

Sorry is this another one of your inane attacks   Oh well 

Just to point out if breeders abuse the hobby breeder label it won't be were I or others draw the line it will be where the Inland Revenue or some other government body draws the line


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## Kalipha

Pot, kettle 

As for inland revenue, I think we have a very very long way to go before having to be worried about *that*. If you actually had to do a tax return for it, loads of things no one in this discussion considers true costs could easily be listed as such. If the inland revenue wanted a tax return as a business, truely we'd get laughed out as at a massive loss - for a start, if it was a genuine business, the cost of feeding your queens would class as a 'cost'. Show fees also - it's advertising, after all. 

This is why Inland Revenue has no interest in cat breeders.


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## tylow

The OP's question kinda answers itself. If you think the price is too steep having researched the breed and compared it to dog prices  i'd say you probably are being charged too much. Interesting debate on breed prices one thing i have noticed in my chosen breed is the prices down south appear to be higher


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## Kalipha

tylow said:


> The OP's question kinda answers itself. If you think the price is too steep having researched the breed and compared it to dog prices  i'd say you probably are being charged too much. Interesting debate on breed prices one thing i have noticed in my chosen breed is the prices down south appear to be higher


Everything's more expensive down south  God I don't miss it.


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## Clare Ferris

Jen26 said:


> Just wondering if any of you have heard about the visits to breeders in Wales?Cardiff I think??


Arent these the puppy and kitten farms that are mainly out there. I have been reading all the posts about keeping records of costs etc incase the inland revenue get involved I really dont think they could seriously demand tax on kitten sales, How would they know what a person was making if anything, they dont know what people charge do they or there expenses. A hobby breeder breeds on a small scale from there home and is not a business selling hundreds of kittens from a cattery situation, you might aswell say they will come looking for anyone who breeds full stop even if they have 1 cat they breed one a year. I dont think there will be anything to gain for them from searching out all breeders especially if they can prove they do not make money on their hobby. I think if you dont counts adult cat costs, importing, shows etc and just add up what you spend on a litter then as soupie I think mentioned selling 7 kittens at £350 each would make someone a nice profit. I know in my breed you would be lucky to get 7 in a litter so not the same sort of profit there as kitten numbers are generally smaller.
We could all sit and debate over what constitutes a hobby breeder and a profit and each person will have different views, to me a hobby breeder is someone who does this outside there normal job in spare time for pleasure, if they make a small profit so what! I doubt they will get rich from it and be lucky enough to be up every year, There is no real money in cat breeding if you do things properly even though some may see higher priced breeds as a way of making profit. Anyone who thinks that will be greatly dissappointed!


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## Jen26

Clare Ferris said:


> Arent these the puppy and kitten farms that are mainly out there.


No, Its regular breeders like you or me?


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> I think if you dont counts adult cat costs, importing, shows etc and just add up what you spend on a litter then as soupie I think mentioned selling 7 kittens at £350 each would make someone a nice profit. I know in my breed you would be lucky to get 7 in a litter so not the same sort of profit there as kitten numbers are generally smaller.


I think if you read soupies subsequent response, apparently she wasn't stating that you would make a tidy profit from 7 kittens being sold at £350 each!!!

I think any breed would be "lucky" or unlucky actually bearing in the mind the problems that can come along with large litters, to be able to guarantee 7 in a litter. I would love to know where that idea came from in relation to siamese. I know of the odd breeder who has one girl who regularly has large litters (but again doesn't mean they all live!!) The average litter size is around 4 or 5.

Having more kittens in the litter just spreads the cost of stud fee/health testing, everything else is increased with the number of kittens in that litter 

Profit does not have to be sufficient to get rich on to attract attention!!


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## Biawhiska

yep but you'll have 7 mouths to feed, 7 lots more poo/wee and litter usage, 7 times more vaccinations costs etc. more food for mum to produce enough milk etc...


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## Clare Ferris

would like to know roughly...How much does it cost to raise one kitten i.e food, litter, worming, vaccs, m/c, reg etc? and does this equal what most breeds are sold for i.e £350?? I would not say it costs that much to raise one kitten if you dont count other things like the purchase of the parents and health testing of them etc. So if you look at the sale price equalling the cost of raising a kitten I would say it would be more like £150-200 personnally.


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## lizward

I seem to recall working mine out at about £130 per kitten. That is, of course, assuming nothing goes wrong. It is also assuming no stud fee.

Liz


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> would like to know roughly...How much does it cost to raise one kitten i.e food, litter, worming, vaccs, m/c, reg etc? and does this equal what most breeds are sold for i.e £350?? I would not say it costs that much to raise one kitten if you dont count other things like the purchase of the parents and health testing of them etc. So if you look at the sale price equalling the cost of raising a kitten I would say it would be more like £150-200 personnally.


Well don't you know the answer to that Clare, you are supposed to be a breeder. How much did it cost you to raise a kitten ? If you reckon only £150, then you made a tidy profit of £350 as you advertise as charging £500. If you had 4 kittens in that litter, which is what you would have us believe is the average for your breed then you would have made a profit of £1400 per litter. You are planning on having 5 queens, all of whom I assume will have 2 litters a year thats £14000 per annum ! Tax free!!! Thats more than some peoples annual salary


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## Biawhiska

it's not all cut and dry, things can and DO go wrong and when they do it can be VERY VERY expensive.


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> Well don't you know the answer to that Clare, you are supposed to be a breeder. How much did it cost you to raise a kitten ? If you reckon only £150, then you made a tidy profit of £350 as you advertise as charging £500. If you had 4 kittens in that litter, which is what you would have us believe is the average for your breed then you would have made a profit of £1400 per litter. You are planning on having 5 queens, all of whom I assume will have 2 litters a year thats £14000 per annum ! Tax free!!! Thats more than some peoples annual salary


I know what it cost me to raise one kitten and yes it is less than what I charge but just trying to make a point that no one charges just for the cost of raising a kitten even if they are hobby breeders. What does it cost you to raise one kitten and what do you charge? I think you have to take into account stud fees, purchase price of breeding cats, travel to stud, testing of cats etc, etc, etc. How much are your stud fees out of interest.
I dont know where you got the idea I was having 2 litters from each queen a year, that is not the case. Please do not make me out to be some unethical breeder who plans on breeding her cats into the ground.:nonod: If it cost me £150 to raise one kitten then all I have done is covered my stud fee and nothing else. You cannot look just at numbers of kitten sales alone without considering anything else so no it is not a profit of £14000 at all as that would only be the money from sales of kittens and not including expenses etc.:nonod:
Providing I had five girls and bred them twice a year, which I DONT


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## Saikou

I was just using your figures to prove a point!!  I also think it is a bit strong to accuse me of calling you unethical because I suggested you would have 2 litters a year from a queen. I don't do that with my queens but it seems common practice with the majority of breeders. So you have just labelled all those as unethical


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## Clare Ferris

Biawhiska said:


> it's not all cut and dry, things can and DO go wrong and when they do it can be VERY VERY expensive.


Exactly my point which is why you cannot look at cost of raising kittens/sale price and compare the two without considering anything else...it is only a profit if it is over your initial outlays and if things go wrong then you can kiss good buy to any profit. If I did not work in a vets I would have had to pay alot more than I did for my sick kitten over the two weeks she was alive.


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I was just using your figures to prove a point!!  I also think it is a bit strong to accuse me of calling you unethical because I suggested you would have 2 litters a year from a queen. I don't do that with my queens but it seems common practice with the majority of breeders. So you have just labelled all those as unethical


In my opinion unless there is good grounds for breeding twice a year then I dont see why anyone would do it, I cannot say it is common practice from the breeders I know??? Why imply someone would do this when you dont know, I would have thought 1 litter a year was the norm. You have still not answered my questions re your costings, or maybe you dont want to tell which is fine if you dont


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## Acacia86

Do breeders charge a standard price, personally i mean??

Say you charge £300 for a kitten, would that price go up if you had to spend a hell of a lot more on the litter due to circumstances? Of would it still be £300?

I don't know all of the cat breeders on here, nor do i know their prices etc, so i don't know, but unless you were wanted profit then surely you would just charge roughly what you paid out???


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## Clare Ferris

Acacia86 said:


> Do breeders charge a standard price, personally i mean??
> 
> Say you charge £300 for a kitten, would that price go up if you had to spend a hell of a lot more on the litter due to circumstances? Of would it still be £300?
> 
> I don't know all of the cat breeders on here, nor do i know their prices etc, so i don't know, but unless you were wanted profit then surely you would just charge roughly what you paid out???


Well yes but people ideas of what you include as 'paying out' differs. For me it is not just what you pay to rear the kittens but everything to do with your breeding program. The price does not change with different litters and expenses so one year you may be up the next down, thats how it goes I guess. If I wanted to make a profit on my last kitten sale then I would have had to charge about £800 as did not have much luck with that litter.


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## lizward

Saikou said:


> You are planning on having 5 queens, all of whom I assume will have 2 litters a year thats £14000 per annum ! Tax free!!! Thats more than some peoples annual salary


If Claire manages to do that, I hope she will write a book telling us all how! I would be delighted to break even!

Liz


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## lizward

Acacia86 said:


> Say you charge £300 for a kitten, would that price go up if you had to spend a hell of a lot more on the litter due to circumstances? Of would it still be £300?


The difficulty is that if the market rate is £300, yoiu would be very lucky indeed to get a lot more. From one girl, in two litters I had two emergency caesareans and two live kittens. The going rate for my breed is about £300 but to be honest prices often have to be dropped as the breed is not popular or well known. If I had tried to cover my costs there, I would have had to sell for £700 or so per kitten and everyone would simply have laughed!

Liz


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## Saikou

lizward said:


> If Claire manages to do that, I hope she will write a book telling us all how! I would be delighted to break even!


I was making a point  I run at a permanent loss, but then I do not charge a premium for my kittens. BUT I can see how those breeds that do charge more for their kittens than us lowly common breed breeders and also charge 3x plus for breed/show kittens can easily make a profit. Maybe not £14000 especially if you count the cost of absolutely everything into the cost of their "business", but a reasonable profit just the same.

Even in the lowly common breeds there are breeders mass producing kittens on the cheap for above average prices with queens having 3 litters a year. Don't tell me they are not making a profit. All calling themselves hobby breeders.


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## Saikou

Clare Ferris said:


> You have still not answered my questions re your costings, or maybe you dont want to tell which is fine if you dont


But you have already stated all that on mine and every other siamese breeders behalf not only how much we charge per kitten, but also how much it costs to raise a siamese kitten even down to how many kittens siamese have in a litter    So what more do you need to know you already know it all


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## Milly22

Saikou said:


> I was making a point  I run at a permanent loss, but then I do not charge a premium for my kittens. BUT I can see how those breeds that do charge more for their kittens than us lowly common breed breeders and also charge 3x plus for breed/show kittens can easily make a profit. Maybe not £14000 especially if you count the cost of absolutely everything into the cost of their "business", but a reasonable profit just the same.
> 
> Even in the lowly common breeds there are breeders mass producing kittens on the cheap for above average prices with queens having 3 litters a year. Don't tell me they are not making a profit. All calling themselves hobby breeders.


I thought GCCF only allowed 3 litters over 2 years from the same cat to ensure it cannot be bred twice per year ?


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## Saikou

No such rule that I am aware of. There is a guideline that there should be a minimum of 17 weeks between births, but thats all I am aware of. If you break that rule apparently you get a strongly worded letter from the GCCF.

Not sure what rules TICA have but I suspect they are more relaxed as the breeder I mentioned before with 3 litters a year, swapped to TICA to ensure she did not receive a letter from the GCCF.


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## Milly22

Saikou said:


> No such rule that I am aware of. There is a guideline that there should be a minimum of 17 weeks between births, but thats all I am aware of. If you break that rule apparently you get a strongly worded letter from the GCCF.
> 
> Not sure what rules TICA have but I suspect they are more relaxed as the breeder I mentioned before with 3 litters a year, swapped to TICA to ensure she did not receive a letter from the GCCF.


That's not good. Many people feel two litters a year is fine if the cat is in fine health, so it is done.


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## Clare Ferris

Saikou said:


> I was making a point  I run at a permanent loss, but then I do not charge a premium for my kittens. BUT I can see how those breeds that do charge more for their kittens than us lowly common breed breeders and also charge 3x plus for breed/show kittens can easily make a profit. Maybe not £14000 especially if you count the cost of absolutely everything into the cost of their "business", but a reasonable profit just the same.
> 
> Even in the lowly common breeds there are breeders mass producing kittens on the cheap for above average prices with queens having 3 litters a year. Don't tell me they are not making a profit. All calling themselves hobby breeders.


3 litters a year??? wow that is surely unethical, I dont know what ticas recommendations are for the number of litters so cannot comment on that. As Liz has said I think with the rarer breeds it is more difficult to sell kittens and I am aware I may have to drop my price if I cannot sell them. I have 3 girls (plan on 1 litter a year from each) I hope to keep a girl in the summer but that is it for the time being. So 4 litters a year is what I plan on having, and that is more than enough commitment for me at the moment being a newbie. I hope I dont have the unfortunate problems with the birth but I know of one lady who imported a girl from russia and she was mated twice and had problems both times and all the kittens died she had to be spayed in the end and now lives with her as a pet. So that breeder had major problems and did not even get one kitten to carry that line on.


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## Guest

£500 for a cat is way too much money, do not know why they are so expensive, maybe thy come with soild gold paws!


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## AuroraLights

This subject is very interesting. My opinion is this. Many many time you are being charged too much. I raise bengals, is it a hobby? Is it a business? Call it what you will , I really don't base any judgment on the adjectives people use, it means nothing in the end. For those of you who do not know, the bengal cat came about when the Asian Leopard Cat was crossed with a domestic cat (barn cat, stray cat, whatever you want to call it). The offspring of this breeding, which is called F1's, was not expected to be fertile. The cross was done to study the leukemia virus that the Asian Leopard aka ALC is immune to. When one of the F1 females became pregnant it was a pleasant surprise and started the bengal breeding programs. This was a cross between two different species of cats. To say a Bengal is just like any other cat is to say you have never owned a bengal. I have yet to see someones striped tabby jump in water and have a blast, or chase the dog to play with it, sleep with it. My "barn" cats never carried my pencils around or played fetch with me. They certainly never greeted me at the door and anticipated my every move. Do I find bengals much more intelligent then our domestic breeds of cats? Absolutely, I would never own another cat without the wild blood. As far as quality of bengals go. When I started in Bengals 8yrs ago, the same quality (meaning body structure, and pattern which includes the size of the rosettes or spots and the clarity of coat meaning the contrast between the spots and background) of bengal we considered CUTTING EDGE is what we now call OLD STYLE. Bengals have improved this much in 8rys. Now, on to the price. There are breeders who still produce old style bengal kittens. Why? Well, when you can go online and find a breeder selling a breeding pair of bengals for $400 each (below my pet price) and you buy them and breed them you shouldn't expect cutting edge quality kittens. When a breeder has $800 into a breeding pair and gets a litter of 6 kittens and sells them for $400 each as pets, they have just made $2400. Now, is this profit? That depends. If they spend all the money and repeat the breeding they are probably going to make good money and never do the bengal breed as a whole any justice. I would look at that quality kitten and say, they paid way too much. Why? Well, the way I see it. I would pay 2-300 more for a cutting edge looking kitten. 
In order for breeders to produce the very amazing cutting edge kittens, they need to buy adults that are cutting edge. These are not cheap. It is nothing to spend $2500-3500 on a quality bengal for breeding. NOT A PAIR BUT EACH ADULT. So, who is actually paying more, the family who bought a low quality kitten from parents that cost the breeder $800 or the family who paid $600-700 for a kitten out of parents that cost the breeder $5000 and up?
So , now you ask. Why do the cutting edge bengals cost so much to begin with? Well, you have to start at the beginning. To buy an ALC you pay at least $5000 for the cub. You are given a cub around 4wks old and a bottle with a whole lot of GOOD LUCK and no guarantees. You need him this early so he bonds to you. You carry him with you everywhere you go in a baby carrier under your coat, in your car, to your friends homes ect... you want him socialized as much as possible. He is now old enough to breed to one of your bengal females in hopes of getting a litter of F1's (remember bengals are at least f4's) Here is where the trouble starts. Many many times the ALC will not breed a bengal. He knows he is a different species. Every get your dog to breed your cat? For a few, the money and time pay off and you have a litter of F1 kittens. But now another problem. You can only move forward with your female kittens since all F1 males are sterile. You keep back a F1 to breed and produce F2's but many of the F1 kittens are not fertile either. Its all a game of hope and luck. For a few, it pays off. For others they start back at scratch and buy another ALC and try again. For others they decide to just buy an F1 girl hoping she is fertile and many have to buy another because they are unable to get them pregnant. F1's are also known for having small litters. So by the time you have Bengal kittens for families, how much money do you have into your breeding program? You certainly cannot even begin to compare all of this time and work with raising ragdolls or sphynx kittens. Many breeds came about because of recessive birth defects and for some reason families have paid more for them. Curled ears, lack of hair. This is very different then the bengals or savannahs where wild blood is envolved. They are a higher priced pet. As kittens they can get sick very easy. Breeders need to know what antibiotics to give, they need a vet they can work with at all hours of the day. They do not just give birth, raise up their kittens and have no issues. There is always an issue with almost every litter. Those who do not know what they are doing many times loose entire litters. Our domestic cats are much hardier. So in the end, the question of Am I paying too much is very subjective. I do not have any problem with a breeder making money on their hobby, I think it is awesome if you can have a hobby you truly love and you can make money at it too. But , I would want to see them reinvesting that money into their program to continue to better the breed instead of breeding all of the flaws we have been trying to breed out, just because they do not want to pay $2500 for a breed quality kitten. I would much rather pay $1000 to a breeder for a cutting edge healthy kitten with a health guarantee, then $200 from a breeder breeding bengals others would be ashamed to put up on their website with no guarantees. You usually get what you pay for, usually. Always do your homework. 
Cathy


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## AuroraLights

Dont' you just wonder what people are thinking when they say things like "thats like the cost of a dog"? Since when is it ok to pay for a dog and yet, what, we should give cats away? I would pay more for a cat then a dog any day. JMHO


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## magisragis

Hi All

The probable reasoning behind the 17 week rule is you can have a girl that may have had a singleton and be calling constantly etc and it be in her best interests to mate her up. 

I always thought it was a 3 litters in 2 years rule but it is 17 weeks. The downside to the 3 litters in 2 years is you will get breeders who break that rule and then, what they will do is put the queen down as another cat on the registration. One that has not had any kittens. Maybe even a fictitious cat. How easy is it for a breeder to register a cat that does not exist? Very. So, what are the ramifications of putting down the incorrect queen down on a pedigree? Well, something genetic may crop up, something we cannot test for yet. The wrong line may get blamed. The downside to 3 in 2 years is not worth thinking about.

I do 3 in 2 years but my girls do not call a lot and do not lose condition.

What I would hope is that the GCCF would keep any eye on breeders and if they see one breeder registering all their litters 17 weeks apart may ask questions? I don't know if they would, I hope they would.

Margaret


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## Milly22

I really wants to reply to this but am not with pre-loved, I mean does her owner know she can have babies ? Preloved | ragdoll - 1.5 yars old queen for sale in Oswestry, Shropshire, UK

She must produce golden kittens!!


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## Saikou

Poor cat  Are there any raggie breed clubs that would step in ?

I would have to wonder what


> *registed* on active list


 means, how the hell they know


> from very good pedigree lines


 and this is just charming


> but she is reday for it


Seeing as she is


> uesed to house equipment


 maybe she does the house work for you as well, hence the sale price.

It smells like a scam to me. If its genuine I hope that poor cat finds a loving pet home where she can be treasured for who she is and not just her ability to produce kittens.


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## magisragis

Hi Mellowma

Would have to be an extremely special pedigree for me to buy that girl! My Ragdoll girl with a very nice pedigree cost less than that.

Does not mention anything about her registration - definitely dodgy.

At the end of the day, they are for sale for whatever people will pay for them. I hear people moaning that they had to pay xxx for a certain cat. Well, no one makes you pay it. If you don't like the price walk away, don't pay it and moan later.

Margaret


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## sootisox

Here's the cynical side of me coming through .... whats the bet we'll see her first 2 litters all being sold on active for rediculous prices so the new owner could make back the money they'd spent buying her in the first place??

If good quality kittens were made available to new (but dedicated and responsible) breeders at a sensible price on the active register, there wouldn't be a market sell cats such as this girl at such a rediculous price.


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## Milly22

I am going to text her. Ask if the cat produces golden kittens. I shall await the response.


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## ChinaBlue

Be interesting to know if the person who bred the cat knows it is being sold on - I wonder if she has a contract on her?


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## Milly22

ChinaBlue said:


> Be interesting to know if the person who bred the cat knows it is being sold on - I wonder if she has a contract on her?


I doubt it. I will see if the lady/person gets back in touch. I asked why so expensive and how can she be sure she is fertile and I would take her for £550 max, unless of course she produces golden kittens.

The name of the seller freaks me out a tad as that's the same as Mistys BYB. Different area though.


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## lizward

magisragis said:


> Does not mention anything about her registration - definitely dodgy.


it says GCCF active register now

Liz


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## Milly22

lizward said:


> it says GCCF active register now
> 
> Liz


Oh pants, they are probably reading. [waves]

Text me back please!


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## Milly22

Okay so I got her down to £650. 

I feel a bit bad. I don't want her. tis a foreign person. I said they go for £650 not £850 she said okay £650 

I may try £350. 

pedigree in my albums under more... if you can make head or tail!


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## Saikou

It looks from that pedigree that they bred the cat, although that looks like a GCCF supplied pedigree, so I suppose they may not have ever transferred the cat into their name, and therefore the GCCF would have the breeder as the owner.

If that is the case and they didn't breed the cat, does anyone know the breeder. They may want to know that she is being sold on - at a ridiculous price.


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## Milly22

Saikou said:


> It looks from that pedigree that they bred the cat, although that looks like a GCCF supplied pedigree, so I suppose they may not have ever transferred the cat into their name, and therefore the GCCF would have the breeder as the owner.
> 
> If that is the case and they didn't breed the cat, does anyone know the breeder. They may want to know that she is being sold on - at a ridiculous price.


There are few people looking into it.

We shall see. She just texted me to say she is not a professional breeder so has no idea what ACTIVE means. 

Hope someone can trace the owner. I will email her, advising her what "active" means.


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## magisragis

Hi Everyone

I recognise the pedigree and have some contacts so leave it with me.

Margaret


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## ChinaBlue

Yes, some recognised names in there but couldn't see the breeder as listed on any of the breed club websites. Will be interested to see what you can find Margaret.


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## lizward

mellowma said:


> pedigree in my albums under more... if you can make head or tail!


Where's that???

Liz


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## sootisox

hi Liz, if you go into Mellowmas profile page, you'll see the "more" album listed on the right hand side with a gorgeous picture of Valeries boy, Ice on the cover. Hope this helps!


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## Starlite

lmao oh i wish you could meet my OH!
Ive followed the thread wih alot of interest as ive always had moggies but i do love pedigrees as well.
About a year ago we were passing a pet shop who had moggie kittens for sale at £80 each. My OHs response?
"£80, are their paws made of gold??!!" :lol:

2 months later he was dropping off a load to a farm and got talking to the farmer. The farmer mentioned his cat recently had a litter and they had one kitten left, but she was going to be drowned if she wasnt sold the following week. Apparently she wasnt very people friendly so no one wanted her.

Long story short, he came home with her as he woulnt see her hurt (he paid the farmer £10) and shes now 8 months old 

She isnt a lap cat but once she gets to know you she lets you pet her 
My OH would faint if i paid any more than £20 for a cat, yet im paying £800 or a puppy (nope, i dont understand him either )


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## Milly22

It gets even more mysterious....see my profile page. Looks legit. hmy:


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## lizward

I agree that certainly looks legitimate. Perhaps it's a case of the breeder "not wanting to know" (which can be as it sounds, but can also be code for the buyer wanting to return the kitten after months and expecting the breeder to give every penny back!)

Liz


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## sootisox

She's very pretty - but I think the chances of her producing blues are slim (both parents are seal). She could well be a pure seal which is fine if all you want to produce is seal. Let us know what u decide!

Jo


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## Milly22

sootisox said:


> She's very pretty - but I think the chances of her producing blues are slim (both parents are seal). She could well be a pure seal which is fine if all you want to produce is seal. Let us know what u decide!
> 
> Jo


Who me ? No way hosie. Still something very dodgy about it all imo.

I have been stung before and it aint happening again! I like kittens, although I do need an older boy for Ice, I can stud one in or something when he starts taking an interest in the fairer sex......

Very pretty but not for me. Besides she looks bigger than Poppy, and Misty is teeny weeny, they would detest her!

and lots of other reasons.


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## Saikou

I doubt they have been back to the breeder, she is 18mths or so, not a kitten. They are probably more interested in making their money back.


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## Clare Ferris

Starlite said:


> lmao oh i wish you could meet my OH!
> Ive followed the thread wih alot of interest as ive always had moggies but i do love pedigrees as well.
> About a year ago we were passing a pet shop who had moggie kittens for sale at £80 each. My OHs response?
> "£80, are their paws made of gold??!!" :lol:
> 
> 2 months later he was dropping off a load to a farm and got talking to the farmer. The farmer mentioned his cat recently had a litter and they had one kitten left, but she was going to be drowned if she wasnt sold the following week. Apparently she wasnt very people friendly so no one wanted her.
> 
> Long story short, he came home with her as he woulnt see her hurt (he paid the farmer £10) and shes now 8 months old
> 
> She isnt a lap cat but once she gets to know you she lets you pet her
> My OH would faint if i paid any more than £20 for a cat, yet im paying £800 or a puppy (nope, i dont understand him either )


Can I ask why you would consider paying that much for a dog but laugh at the fact people may want to pay more than £100 for a decent pedigree cat? Maybe your other half has the view that cats are all the same aloof and do their own thing, not very affectionate and why pay for one when you can adopt one for nothing. When infact most people who own pedigrees will happily tell you how different they actually are in looks and character. Well I would say try owning one of my pedigrees for a week and see the difference in these cats. They may be a cat all the same but I honestly do not see why people think it is acceptable to pay hundreds for a dog yet are totally gobsmacked at the idea of paying for a cat, albeit, healthy, vacc, free from disease, socialised and loving of people,reared in a loving home environment, oh and some even play fetch! Not one reared on a farm with little human contact by some uncaring farmer who cant even be bothered to get the mother spayed, that could be carrying all sorts of disease! Makes perfect sense to me why someone would pay for a pedigree.


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## Milly22

Regarding the ragdoll I was talking about. It seems legit in some weird way, I think, so if you lurking and are an experienced breeder looking for a female then contact the lady. I would obv check the paper work thoroughly. If you are nice and kind and will retire her at 3/4 years old. I think she would come down to £600. You could possibly show her. Nice ragdoll people though.


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## Milly22

Clare Ferris said:


> Can I ask why you would consider paying that much for a dog but laugh at the fact people may want to pay more than £100 for a decent pedigree cat? Maybe your other half has the view that cats are all the same aloof and do their own thing, not very affectionate and why pay for one when you can adopt one for nothing. When infact most people who own pedigrees will happily tell you how different they actually are in looks and character. Well I would say try owning one of my pedigrees for a week and see the difference in these cats. They may be a cat all the same but I honestly do not see why people think it is acceptable to pay hundreds for a dog yet are totally gobsmacked at the idea of paying for a cat, albeit, healthy, vacc, free from disease, socialised and loving of people,reared in a loving home environment, oh and some even play fetch! Not one reared on a farm with little human contact by some uncaring farmer who cant even be bothered to get the mother spayed, that could be carrying all sorts of disease! Makes perfect sense to me why someone would pay for a pedigree.


Oh at least they saved the cat.


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## magisragis

Hi All

Is there any difference between a pedigree dog or cat - none in my book. 

Anyway, did not have to use any contacts. I don't think the original breeder is the type to contract people, mentor people or take the cat back.

From the comments made to Mellowma, I don't even think the current owner knew they had a breeding girl and if they did, certainly got no help or advice from the breeder as to how to go about it. 

I hope this girl finds a good home but if anyone was thinking of taking her on, I would insist on the DNA test for the known defective Ragdoll gene that may cause HCM before agreeing to a sale. 

Margaret


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