# rat breeding



## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

Hello guys, sensitive topic here but I don't know where else to ask.

I am a snake keeper and breeder and I am thinking about breeding rats for obvious reasons, I however would like to make sure the rats are kept healthy and kept happy and I am trying to work out how many rats I would need to keep to eliminate the cost of delivery for frozen rodents.

I want to know how often a female rat can breed, I know they are bred every 4 weeks in large businesses but I don't know if that is ethical or not, I wouldn't want the rats to suffer from being pregnant too often.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi,

I actually think what you are doing is a good thing, rather than supporting the abuse and mis-treatment that goes on in rodent farms.

I'm not sure of the facts myself, but I appriciate you trying to do it as ethically as possible.

I'd suggest that you make sure you have a large cage, with lot's of toys and enrichment, so that your breeding females have a pleasant life.

Please don't overbreed them.

Some advice about breeding ethically can be found here:
Fancy Rats | Information

scroll down to breeding.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Depends how many snakes you are keeping aswell as to whether it would be less costly to breed your rodents.

A lot of rat breeders will only breed from a female 2 or 3 times and she must be rested well between.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

TBH, you'd be better off posting in the reptile section on here, a lot of rat owners get upset about feeder breeders, although I appreciate you trying to do it in a more ethical way than rodent farmers & that snakes have to eat too, at the end of the day this section of the forum is for pet rodent owners
All I can say is please please _please_ do as much research as you can & please don't use those horrible rack things, if you want to do things ethically IMO the rats would have to be kept the same way that our pet ones are, with the same thought to diet, enrichment, & so on


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## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

At the moment I have 31 baby boa constrictors that are all for sale, they'd be feeding on as small a mice as possible for the next few weeks then move to rat pups.

I also have 5 royal pythons which would feed on small-medium rats

And lastly I have a large 8ft boa which would be feeding on as large-a-rats as possible. 

Thank you all for taking this thread in a good way, I wouldn't like to upset anyone


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## purple_x (Dec 29, 2010)

I dont want to upset anyone or cause arguments here but coming onto a PET forum full of people who largely rescue animals (some being rescued from becoming snake food) I think it's awful that you came here asking this and I for one am feeling rather sick now


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## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

Deleted by kelfezond.


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## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

Feeling guilty about coming here now, apologies i'll consider this thread closed. I meant no harm.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

don't feel guilty at all! its brilliant that you have come to find out how to treat your rats well! People need to accept that feeder rats exist and we should support those who treat their stock well.

Purple - would you rather this member bought rats from disgusting rodent farms where the females are bred and bred as often as they can be...or that they care for their breeding stock and give them enjoyable lives?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

purple_x said:


> I dont want to upset anyone or cause arguments here but coming onto a PET forum full of people who largely rescue animals (some being rescued from becoming snake food) I think it's awful that you came here asking this and I for one am feeling rather sick now


A lot of us eat meat to...shock horror


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

purple i do see what your saying, but snakes need to eat to, should we not keep snakes because they eat meat, what about cats and dogs? what about us?

personally i could not do it, how do you decide who lives and who dies? but i think it is much better that the OP is looking into providing his snakes dinner the best, most humane life they can, before the inevitable  and as long as it is done right..... it is better then the alternative.

the big question i have though, is how do you plan to humanly kill them before giving them to your snakes?

what will you do with your females when they retire? will you be finding them loving pet only homes?


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Snakes or also pets and need food, the best way IMO is to have freezer food who have had wonderful life's etc are pets first and food second. 

I'd rather the adult rats used as feeders had a brilliant time before they are killed then be in breeder tubs with nothing  

I couldn't do it myself but think people who do and treat both animals with respect and want the best need to be given a pat on the back


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## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

Lil Miss said:


> purple i do see what your saying, but snakes need to eat to, should we not keep snakes because they eat meat, what about cats and dogs? what about us?
> 
> personally i could not do it, how do you decide who lives and who dies? but i think it is much better that the OP is looking into providing his snakes dinner the best, most humane life they can, before the inevitable  and as long as it is done right..... it is better then the alternative.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if answering this is in my best interest considering the replies here so far but if you insist, some of them would be live fed as a rare few hatchlings and babies find it hard to go straight onto eating frozen, the rest and majority would be prekilled either by a swift sharp blow to the head or a co2 chamber. Not a nice thing to talk about on a pet forum though.

As for the breeders no they wouldn't be getting homes they would be food for the large boa who needs very big meals although it is possible i'll switch her to rabbit if I can find somewhere that sells them in which case the big female breeders would be rehomed as they'd be too big for my royal pythons.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Kelfezond said:


> I'm not sure if answering this is in my best interest considering the replies here so far but if you insist, some of them would be *live fed* as a rare few hatchlings and babies find it hard to go straight onto eating frozen, the rest and majority would be prekilled either by a swift sharp blow to the head or a co2 chamber. Not a nice thing to talk about on a pet forum though.
> 
> As for the breeders no they wouldn't be getting homes they would be food for the large boa who needs very big meals although it is possible i'll switch her to rabbit if I can find somewhere that sells them in which case the big female breeders would be rehomed as they'd be too big for my royal pythons.


you might want to look very carefully at the legislation regarding the live feeding of vertebrates before doing this


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## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

I know the law, it's perfectly legal assuming it is required for the snakes wellbeing, meaning that the snake must be refusing frozen and prekilled before live is offered.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

live feeding is totally out of the question really, unless you have an animal that will not eat prekilled, you NEED to do everything in your power to get them all to eat prekilled, live feeding is barbaric and is thankfully illegal in this country 
they might find it hard to eat frozen, but they would probably do well on fresh killed, as it will still be warm.

and im not too sure about how humane either of those methods would be, as suffocation isnt pleasant, and if the first blow to the head failed to kill, the animal would be in a lot of pain


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lil Miss said:


> live feeding is totally out of the question really, unless you have an animal that will not eat prekilled, you NEED to do everything in your power to get them all to eat prekilled, live feeding is barbaric and is thankfully illegal in this country
> they might find it hard to eat frozen, but they would probably do well on fresh killed, as it will still be warm.
> 
> and im not too sure about how humane either of those methods would be, as suffocation isnt pleasant, and if the first blow to the head failed to kill, the animal would be in a lot of pain


The law is murky with regards to live feeding, as it contravenes the Animal Welfare Act to allow it, but so would letting a fussy snake starve!

I've heard the CO2 chamber apparently just 'makes them go to sleep' (mostly from reptile keepers) but others say it suffocates them. Not sure what would be a humane way to do it TBH


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

also i need to point out, if you are going to do this, you NEED to go about breeding correctly too

you will need to get your stock from a good breeder, with lines that are defect free, and you will have to pay close attention to the genetics of any of the rats you cross, and you will need to learn about lethal genes and such, especially as you are planning on growing some of them past pinky stage

you can not breed pet store animals


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## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

Well thats why I came here 

Whats wrong with breeding pet store rats?


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2011)

I will say first off I am not a fan of live feeding but it isn't illegal in this country to live feed *unless * it can be proved it is for "entertainment" (i.e it is recorded on video to show "friends" if that makes sence) so as Kelfezond said the law is very murky  
I used to keep a boa years ago before I acquired my other fluffs (she was rescued for someone that fed her crap and used a faulty heat mat so she had burns along her entire 6ft length ) and I would never dream of feeding live, it is barbaric IMO but I do understand that some reps won't take pre-killed 



Kelfezond said:


> Well thats why I came here
> 
> Whats wrong with breeding pet store rats?


You can never know the genetic history of a pet shop bought pet, not to mention that pet shop animals come from breeding mills so would be no better than you buying mill rats for your snakes


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Kelfezond said:


> Well thats why I came here
> 
> Whats wrong with breeding pet store rats?


In a nutshell, everything!
Buying pet shop rats is the same as buying battery hens' eggs & if you want to do things ethically they aren't the way to go
Rodent Farm
I'd seek out a good feeder breeder to mentor you & buying your foundation rats from there, I don't know of any myself though so can't recommend one


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## spoiled_rat (Mar 24, 2008)

Lil Miss said:


> you will need to get your stock from a good breeder, with lines that are defect free


It would be impossible to find a line which is 'defect free'.



Lil Miss said:


> and you will need to learn about lethal genes and such, especially as you are planning on growing some of them past pinky stage


What about lethal genes? how are they relevent in regards to the pinky stage and growing on? All the current lethal genes in the UK are re-absorbed in utero and are never born, which just means the overall litter size is a little smaller than usual.


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## Kelfezond (Jul 10, 2011)

This is sounding alot harder to do than I expected, I have a lot of snakes and more on the way I don't think i'd have the time to care for that many rats I think i'll have to stick to buying frozen.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Kelfezond said:


> This is sounding alot harder to do than I expected, I have a lot of snakes and more on the way I don't think i'd have the time to care for that many rats I think i'll have to stick to buying frozen.


Thats probably best for now to be honest otherwise you could become quite taken over with the rat keeping side, cost wise and time wise.


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