# Dairy vs soya?



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

There have been a few threads about this sort of thing, but wondered what the general opinion was? I buy milk from the local milkman, two pints per week, I'm aware of the impact of dairy, but I'm also aware of the impact of soya milk. I choose to support local producers, and pay a bit more. Thoughts? Do you have milk or soya milk, if so, why?


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Milk..

Tastes far better , is locally produced , is cheaper and imo more natural than the very long industrial process needed to produce soya 'milk' plus new research is showing that too much soya protien may not be all that good for the human body..


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

dorrit said:


> Milk..
> 
> Tastes far better , is locally produced , is cheaper and imo more natural than the very long industrial process needed to produce soya 'milk' plus new reserch is showing that too much soya protiens may not be all that good for the human body..


Thanks for that, interesting! I sort of base my thinking on if we need more soya, then at the moment, what we get is not necessarily from the best place, so how do you manage to source it ethically? It's six of one and half a dozen of the other as far as I'm concerned, but at least if you choose to buy dairy in this country, you can choose who to support.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Milk ... I would have a milkman but they don't deliver to us out in the sticks. If I could buy directly from a dairy then I would


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Just a point, soya products such as tofu can interfere with your meds anti depressives, antibiotics some cancer drugs, warfrain and estrogens are among those whos effects can be lessened by consumption of some soya products.

Research is ongoing as to the effects it has on thyroid patients some think it may be toxic to thyroid patients other simply that it makes the symptoms of hypothyroid patients worse..

So while it has no cholesterol and could be useful in helping to prevent some diseases, for some people it has the opposite effect and can cause their meds to stop working or condition to worsen..

Soya is not without benefits but its also not without its risks.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

The Dairy Industry. A rotten tale of exploitation, abuse and killing. Plus dairy produce is linked to all manner of health ailments.

There isn't actually very much soya in soya milk. It's about 97% water. The soya milk on sale in the UK is GM free and it comes from traditional farm land, not felled rainforest.
Bear in mind a lot of the scare stories surrounding soya where put about by the Dairy Industry to protect their markets. As Jane Plant [who overcame 'terminal' breast cancer by changing her diet and giving up all dairy produce. (Dairy produce contains growth hormones, specifically IGF-1 which promotes cellular growth)] famously said 'If soya is so bad why do they feed such huge quantities of it to cows?']
Fermented soya foods and whole soyabeans have been eaten for 3,000 years and are very healthy.
Processed soya is just that processed. Occasionally isn't going to hurt, but I wouldn't live off the stuff.

There are plenty of alternatives to dairy nowadays. Apart from soya milk, there is ...almond milk, hazelnut milk, rice milk, oat milk and (my favourite) coconut milk. In America you can get hemp milk, but I've not seen it here.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for those replies, I wasn't aware of the effect it could have on medication, or the other implications of dairy produce. I don't think I'll change my ways I'm afraid, I like my full fat milk, yoghurt, cheese etc. 

My concern about where it comes from isn't just for us here, it seems to be becoming more and more popular, and although we can buy ethically sourced produce in the UK, production to meet the rising demand must be having an impact somewhere, with other countries who aren't so stringent about only supporting soya that hasn't been farmed in areas that were once rainforest.


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## K9Steve (Oct 5, 2012)

I do drink a lot of milk, but sometimes I do drink soy milk too. However, if anything has ever taught any of us about diet, then it should be this: Eat and drink everything in moderation.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Have been drinking almond milk. Make my own shakes adding bananas and delicious. Have been eliminating many animal products from my diet and have never felt better...more energy and skin and hair in good condition.

I do give my kids organic semi skimmed milk.


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## K9Steve (Oct 5, 2012)

gorgeous said:


> Have been drinking almond milk. Make my own shakes adding bananas and delicious. Have been eliminating many animal products from my diet and have never felt better...more energy and skin and hair in good condition.
> 
> I do give my kids organic semi skimmed milk.


Come to think of it, there's another kind of milk I would like to try and that milk is almond milk. Gorgeous, you say it tastes good? If so, I've got to try some almond milk!


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

K9Steve said:


> Come to think of it, there's another kind of milk I would like to try and that milk is almond milk. Gorgeous, you say it tastes good? If so, I've got to try some almond milk!


I blend it with fruit for brekkie and it is light and creamy and fills you up with out feeling bloated!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm not sure almond milk would go very well in a cuppa, I don't generally drink a lot of milk, I have a little bit on cereal and sometimes use it in cooking, but only get through a max of two pints a week. What's left the dogs get as a treat. 

That said, it does sound as though it might taste quite nice, can you cook and bake with it gorgeous?


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not sure almond milk would go very well in a cuppa, I don't generally drink a lot of milk, I have a little bit on cereal and sometimes use it in cooking, but only get through a max of two pints a week. What's left the dogs get as a treat.
> 
> That said, it does sound as though it might taste quite nice, can you cook and bake with it gorgeous?


Not tried cooking with it tbh. I have added it to coffee and it is nice. I dont drink ordinary tea anymore - just green tea - so dont know what it is like in tea!


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## K9Steve (Oct 5, 2012)

gorgeous said:


> I blend it with fruit for brekkie and it is light and creamy and fills you up with out feeling bloated!


I'm going to try that after I get my "situation" under control. That sounds better than buying those already-made-drinks similar to this and possibly without all the sugar or sugar-based ingredients, or should I say "chemicals", that are added to these drinks. The sugar(s) that come from possibly the milk itself, but the fruits themselves will add sufficient enough of sugar to sweeten the drinks by themselves.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Call me odd if you like, but I can't stand milk shakes and smoothies, I prefer whole fruit so I'm not sure the breakfast thing would do it for me (just had a bowl of fruit salad topped with greek yoghurt & honey for brekkie). But if it worked for other recipes and particularly for baking it might be worth looking at trying some rather than buy more milk. Not that I bake huge amounts, but it sounds as if it could be quite nice.

Edited to add, I have black coffee, not much good am I!!


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## DollyGirl08 (Dec 1, 2012)

I use soya milk because i'm lactose intolerant. Also have to use soya yoghurts. I seem to be ok with cheese/chocolate but then i don't have them often. Heaven forbid i have an intake of dairy, i spend the rest of the day in a lot of stomach pain and on the loo

Also there is a lot to suggest cows milk is not good for us, and people see health improvements when cutting it out. 

Not to mention we are the only species that drink another species milk, and also drink milk into adulthood.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> The Dairy Industry. A rotten tale of exploitation, abuse and killing. Plus dairy produce is linked to all manner of health ailments.
> 
> There isn't actually very much soya in soya milk. It's about 97% water *cows milk too*. The soya milk on sale in the UK is GM free and it comes from traditional farm land, not felled rainforest *Simply untrue, much of the soya milk in the UK is from GM sources - companies I've questioned have been unable to deny it - Alpro and organic brands are a better bet. Basically, if it isn't stated on the pack it's from non-GM sources, assume it is.*.
> Bear in mind a lot of the scare stories surrounding soya where put about by the Dairy Industry to protect their markets. As Jane Plant [who overcame 'terminal' breast cancer by changing her diet and giving up all dairy produce. (Dairy produce contains growth hormones, specifically IGF-1 which promotes cellular growth)] famously said 'If soya is so bad why do they feed such huge quantities of it to cows?']
> ...


I use soya, almond or hazelnut or coconut milks (according to which is on offer) - dairy gives me itchy skin and I prefer the taste of the non-dairy ones. Iced coffee made with the hazelnut milk is gorgeous. Getting through about 1ltr of soya a day, I barely noticed the menopause - can't prove a link but I think there is one. I use soya (unsweetened) for cooking too, sauces, porridge and soups etc.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

We use a mix of dairy and Oatly. Can't use soya.

I use the Oatly "milk" in cooking -sauces, cakes, yorkshire puds, etc. And we like the Oatly "cream" too, although it has disappeared from local supermarket. We have in Lactolite milk too - lots of intolerances in our family.


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## fire-siamesekitty (Jun 8, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There have been a few threads about this sort of thing, but wondered what the general opinion was? I buy milk from the local milkman, two pints per week, I'm aware of the impact of dairy, but I'm also aware of the impact of soya milk. I choose to support local producers, and pay a bit more. Thoughts? Do you have milk or soya milk, if so, why?


I remember the milk man coming round when i was younger, i did'nt think they were still going....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

fire-siamesekitty said:


> I remember the milk man coming round when i was younger, i did'nt think they were still going....


Yep, proper old fashioned pint of full cream milk twice a week. And actually, he's quite fit, nothing like the image of the old fashioned milkman with a flatcap, jam jar glasses and a white coat.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Burrowzig: 
The UK market leaders in soya milk Alpro, Provamel and Plamil all use GM free, from traditional farmland not rainforest felled land.

Alpro | UK FAQ

Corporate sustainability and the Provamel package: The sustainable approach of Provamel

Ethical & Environmental Policies : Plamil Foods

See this for the others/own brand
Where does our Soya comes from? « New Environmentalist


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Milk full fat, never have anything else.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for those replies, *I wasn't aware of the effect it could have on medication, or the other implications of dairy produce. I don't think I'll change my ways I'm afraid, I like my full fat milk, yoghurt, cheese etc. *
> 
> My concern about where it comes from isn't just for us here, it seems to be becoming more and more popular, and although we can buy ethically sourced produce in the UK, production to meet the rising demand must be having an impact somewhere, with other countries who aren't so stringent about only supporting soya that hasn't been farmed in areas that were once rainforest.


I never knew that either :yikes:



gorgeous said:


> Have been *drinking almond milk.* Make my own shakes adding bananas and delicious. Have been eliminating many animal products from my diet and have never felt better...more energy and skin and hair in good condition.
> 
> I do give my kids organic semi skimmed milk.


I've thought about trying that but that's as far as I've got, the sound of banana milkshakes sounds, yummy


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Milk

Although I like dairy free coconut milk 

Soya- we looked at formulas as the baby is allergic to cows milk products but it's been linked to infertility in baby boy as adults so now we use a fish based one 

Trying to find foods without any cows milk or soya products is a pain on the bum! Thankfully we have found a few


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> Burrowzig:
> The UK market leaders in soya milk Alpro, Provamel and Plamil all use GM free, from traditional farmland not rainforest felled land.
> 
> Alpro | UK FAQ
> ...


Yes, but 'own brand' soya milks that are sold in vast quantities because the price is much lower contain GM, and are often at least partly from destroyed rainforest areas. Like I said before, assume GM unless it specifically states non-GM.

Alpro and Provamel are the same company - the Alpro label goes in supermarkets and Provamel into health food shops.

The links you put up make it clear your stement "The soya milk on sale in the UK is GM free and it comes from traditional farm land, not felled rainforest" is wrong. Alpro/Provamel may be the market leader but that is nothing like their sales accounting for even a majority of the soya milk sold in the UK. They are merely the largest single brand.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

I drink Soya milk because dairy makes me get bad skin and earache. I only have it on cereal because I don't drink much tea or coffee and if I did I prefer it black. I do eat dairy cottage cheese once a week and the occasional dairy yoghurt. I love ice cream but only have it rarely because it upsets my stomach.

I don't think about where it comes from which is really bad :blush: I am on a budget so I tend to go for what is cheapest rather than the more expensive ethically produced version.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> Yes, but 'own brand' soya milks that are sold in vast quantities because the price is much lower contain GM, and are often at least partly from destroyed rainforest areas. Like I said before, assume GM unless it specifically states non-GM.
> 
> Alpro and Provamel are the same company - the Alpro label goes in supermarkets and Provamel into health food shops.
> 
> The links you put up make it clear your stement "The soya milk on sale in the UK is GM free and it comes from traditional farm land, not felled rainforest" is wrong. Alpro/Provamel may be the market leader but that is nothing like their sales accounting for even a majority of the soya milk sold in the UK. They are merely the largest single brand.


Alpro - GM free
Provamel - GM free
Plamil - GM free
Sainsburys - 'Don't allow the use of GM crops, ingredients, additives or ingredients'
Tescos - 'In the UK our own-brand soy products come only from non-GM sources'
Marks and Spencers - 'Continue to maintain a non-GM policy for all of our food ingredients'
Redwood - 'All our soya is ethically sourced from Europe with all suppliers having to provide proof of being GM free before being considered as a supplier.'

Asda - They couldn't say.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> Alpro - GM free
> Provamel - GM free
> Plamil - GM free
> Sainsburys - 'Don't allow the use of GM crops, ingredients, additives or ingredients'
> ...


What you said was "The soya milk on sale in the UK is GM free and it comes from traditional farm land, not felled rainforest" 
The links you put up, and quotes above, do not support your original statement. If you had said 'some of the soya milk.....' or even 'much of the soya milk....' we wouldn't be arguing about it now. But what you said carried the implication that all soya milk in the UK was GM free and grown on traditional farm land. Few of the links and quotes you've put up to support your case address the issue of where the soya is grown.
Asda 'couldn't say'. Wouldn't say, more like it. Wallmart are notorious for using GM soya in their products, but obviously prefer to keep the lid on it. And then there are numerous other companies and supermarket own brands you haven't mentioned. Until manufacturers are forced to label GM material on the packaging, consumers are in the dark - and people making blanket statements implying that everything is OK (such as yours) when the truth is otherwise, does not help.

To say nothing about routine testing on allegedly non-GM soya frequently turning out to contain GM when it shouldn't, even in organic produce.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> What you said was "The soya milk on sale in the UK is GM free and it comes from traditional farm land, not felled rainforest"
> The links you put up, and quotes above, do not support your original statement. If you had said 'some of the soya milk.....' or even 'much of the soya milk....' we wouldn't be arguing about it now. But what you said carried the implication that all soya milk in the UK was GM free and grown on traditional farm land. Few of the links and quotes you've put up to support your case address the issue of where the soya is grown.
> Asda 'couldn't say'. Wouldn't say, more like it. Wallmart are notorious for using GM soya in their products, but obviously prefer to keep the lid on it. And then there are numerous other companies and supermarket own brands you haven't mentioned. Until manufacturers are forced to label GM material on the packaging, consumers are in the dark - and people making blanket statements implying that everything is OK (such as yours) when the truth is otherwise, does not help.
> 
> To say nothing about routine testing on allegedly non-GM soya frequently turning out to contain GM when it shouldn't, even in organic produce.


I am well aware of what I said and I stand by it.

They are obliged to say so. BY LAW if any brand of soya milk is produced from genetically modified soya beans it has to be so labelled.

'Asda couldn't say' that was added rather contemptiously. Shoddy. It certainly doesn't say much for their Customer Services. 
Their 'fresh' soya milk country of origin is the UK. No GM soya is grown here. Their 'long life' soya country of origin is Spain. 'Ingredients from ecological production'. So both would be GM free. And as I said EU law demands they label it as such if it isn't GM free.

As for other 'own brand' soya millks. Think about it, supermarket chains have hundreds of own brand lines. They'd have to have hundreds of factories and hundreds of packaging plants if they made their own 'own brand' label products. They don't. They buy them in from the bulk producers, in their own packaging, and with a tweaked recipe. 
The big producers don't use GM soya.

As for contamination, a valid point. But soya milk and other traditional soya products are generally produced not from mass-produced soya but from specially selected varieties of soya beans. These soya beans are cultivated and handled separately. 
And as I said, there is sourcing of soya beans for soya milks and the like, because the companies involved are only too aware of public opposition to GM and their environmental concerns and they want to cultivate a wholesome, ethical company image. Wheter they mean it or not...but it helps them sell their products.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

i get semi skimmed cravendale milk, alpro soya soy milk, hazelnut milk, almond milk, coconut milk and rice and oat milk x


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

A good article on the dairy v soya debate

Cancer Active -


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Indiandpuppy said:


> i get semi skimmed cravendale milk, alpro soya soy milk, hazelnut milk, almond milk, coconut milk and rice and oat milk x


I'm interested to read that. That is indicative of what is happening.

Plant milks are available pretty much everywhere nowadays. And more and more people, either for health or compassionate reasons, are switching over to using them. And as public interest increases more varieties of plant milk are coming to market. Alpro alone have introduced three 'new' plant milks within the last year - almond, hazelnut and rice milk (to challenge the existing rice milk market leader).

Despite the surge in usage of plant milks sales of soya milk are taking a hit as people try and opt for other plant milks.
Almond milk is close to overtaking soya milk in terms of usage in the US.
Almond milk catching up with soy as favorite non-dairy milk alternative


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

my favourite non-dairy is karo coconut milk  

I like breakfast variety x


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## Skandi (May 4, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> I use soya (unsweetened) for cooking too, sauces, porridge and soups etc.


I found that it worked fine for cooking except if you used it in something you wanted to cool down, like a cold white sauce, then it split. I don't use it now, as I discovered the Lactose free milk, which imo tastes a lot better. Now as I can't get that I just keep milk to once a week, which is a shame I love poridge but hey ho. (if I make it with water I use so much honey to make it taste of anything)


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## K9Steve (Oct 5, 2012)

I've got to try those other milks! I've had real coconut milk from, of course, cocunuts, but one has to watch the amount they consume, because real coconut milk is loaded with fat, or so I'm told. Why is everything that is good to eat or drink, either so fattening for one? :sad:

The one grocery store in my area sells hazelnut milk, but there is one brand I really like and they don't sell it anymore, just the other brands. :sad:

If anyone who knows me and works at the grocery store and is reading this, please tell your owners to bring my brand back!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I have almond milk and soy, sadly I often have a dairy intolerance so dairy milk can sometimes cause me to be ill


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

K9Steve said:


> I've got to try those other milks! I've had real coconut milk from, of course, cocunuts, but one has to watch the amount they consume, because real coconut milk is loaded with fat, or so I'm told. Why is everything that is good to eat or drink, either so fattening for one? :sad:
> 
> The one grocery store in my area sells hazelnut milk, but there is one brand I really like and they don't sell it anymore, just the other brands. :sad:
> 
> If anyone who knows me and works at the grocery store and is reading this, please tell your owners to bring my brand back!


its not coconut milk like the tinned cooking one! Its a low fat apple juice, water and coconut milk blend to make drinking coconut milk, google karo coconut milk.

x


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## lisa0307 (Aug 25, 2009)

Soya every time...haven't drunk Milk for many years and wouldn't now. 

LINK: Animal Aid: Search results


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

lisa0307 said:


> Soya every time...haven't drunk Milk for many years and wouldn't now.
> 
> LINK: Animal Aid: Search results


Good for you!


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## vet-2-b (Sep 25, 2008)

im lactos intolerent so i cant have diary lol i dont paritcularly like almond milk so just have lacto free stuff but i dont drink much of it anyway. i have like a table spoons worth on my cerals occasionaly


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

I have tried soya milk but dont like it. 

We buy at least 8 pints of milk off the milkman in a week


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> The Dairy Industry. A rotten tale of exploitation, abuse and killing. Plus dairy produce is linked to all manner of health ailments.
> 
> There isn't actually very much soya in soya milk. It's about 97% water. The soya milk on sale in the UK is GM free and it comes from traditional farm land, not felled rainforest.
> Bear in mind a lot of the scare stories surrounding soya where put about by the Dairy Industry to protect their markets. As Jane Plant [who overcame 'terminal' breast cancer by changing her diet and giving up all dairy produce. (Dairy produce contains growth hormones, specifically IGF-1 which promotes cellular growth)] famously said 'If soya is so bad why do they feed such huge quantities of it to cows?']
> ...


Please tell me you're still not drinking or consuming Alpro or Provamel KOA?

:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::scared:


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Neither. I've always disliked milk and dairy produce- I tried Alpro a while ago and it was just as rank.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Please tell me you're still not drinking or consuming Alpro or Provamel KOA


No. But is this leading up to a lecture on Dean Foods having a hand in the American Dairy Industry?

Firstly the American Dairy Industry is making plenty of money. They aren't supported by anyone. They're sending the profits back to the Directors and shareholders.

And the profits from the Alpro plant milk sales go to the Directors and shareholders as well.

Lots of vegans/AR people were up in arms about Dean's acquisition of Alpro.
I wasn't and I'm still not. In fact in my book I reckon it'll turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to veganism.

Dean Foods bought Alpro for one reason - to make money. And for that end they're going to maximise their investment.
They have the financial clout, influence and business acumen to get their plant milks in every food store the length and breadth of America and Britain and elsewhere in the Western world...And they have done!

Since they took over they've improved the soya milk, and brought almond milk, hazelnut milk and rice milk to market. 
Most food stores now have between 4 - 6 different plant milks on sale.

Americans are consuming huge amounts of dairy - and prostate cancer is now the number one male cancer in America and breast cancer is now the number one female cancer in America, both hormonal cancers, both linked to dairy consumption. And ovarian cancer is too. And many other ailments.

But most people don't know it. One day some enlightened celebrity is going to appear on a chat show or something and blow the lid off the whole rotten business and then...
People will be flocking to buy the plant milks Dean Foods have got stocked in every food store....

Oh and before you say it, an area of Amazonian rainforest the size of France was destroyed and lost forever so that people could eat beef burgers!!!
There has been an issue with soya farming recently. But before you slander them, Dean Foods source their soya from traditional farm land.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

jenniferx said:


> Neither. I've always disliked milk and dairy produce- I tried Alpro a while ago and it was just as rank.


Have you tried coconut milk, a bit calorific, but delicious and the most healthful of the plant milks.
Almond milk is lovely, as is rice milk.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> No. But is this leading up to a lecture on Marlow Foods having a hand in the American Dairy Industry?
> 
> Firstly the American Dairy Industry is making plenty of money. They aren't supported by anyone. They're sending the profits back to the Directors and shareholders.
> 
> ...


Who the heck are Marlow Foods (bought by Premier Foods) and what do they have to do with Alpro?

Did I slander Alpro or Provamel? I think not or I wouldn't be writing this, I'd be being sued for everything I and the rest of my family had by Dean Foods but as I jumped on a fair few veggie and vegan forums to spread the word, enquired on their facebook page, wrote pretty much what I said in the original post on their facebook page and have not been sent any form of legal request to attend court I think what I worte was the truth and they could not deny it. Talk about opening a few lids and sticking it to the corporates.

So, who are Marlow Foods and what do they have to do with plant milks? What research have you done on them as your post makes it sound like you're worried I might start doing some digging again


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

Knightofalbion said:


> Have you tried coconut milk, a bit calorific, but delicious and the most healthful of the plant milks.
> Almond milk is lovely, as is rice milk.


What coconut milk do you buy? I buy Kara Coconut Milk with calcium Kara Dairy Free 1lt - - Milk - Non Dairy

100ml only has 27 calories and ! not calorific at all 

also what almond milks do you all get, I don't like alpro almond milk, only Blue diamond almond breeze  oatly for oat milk and rice dream for rice milk 
I don't like hazelnut milk but my friend loves alpro hazelnut and makes 'nutella milkshakes' with it 

are you all vegan then or just dairy free/lactose free x


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Are you referring to Quorn KOA?

If so Marlow Foods sold them off to to investment companies called

Exponent Private Equity: Exponent - Private equity

and

Intermediate Capital Group: Intermediate Capital Group

I'll take a look at those companies for you and let you know where your money is going.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Well these are the results after a quick search for Intermediate Capital Group.

*Quorn* - Marlow Foods, a former division of Premier Foods, is the UK market leader in the meat alternative segment selling chilled and frozen food products under the Quorn and Cauldron brands. The Quorn product is unique globally with significant barriers to entry. Both brands are targeted at vegetarians and weight/health managing consumers. The business also operates in a number of international markets where it commands similar market leading positions.

ICG financed the acquisition of Marlow Foods providing junior debt and equity of £80 million from its balance sheet and third party funds.

*Aviagen* - *Aviagen is the worlds leading breeder of poultry stock for meat production and operates production facilities across the globe.* Aviagen was sold by Advent to the privately owned Wesjohann Group in April 2005. ICG provided a mezzanine loan for sponsorless leveraged buyout to support Wesjohann Group. The mezzanine loan was refinanced via senior debt in 2006.

These guys provide poultry chicks to the meat indistry and egg production facilities.

A quick search of "Aviagen cruelty" brings up a few stuff 

*Convenience Food Systems* - *Convenience Food Systems (CFS) supplies equipment used for the preparation, processing and packaging of meat, poultry and seafood-based products.*
CFS (Convenience Food Systems, the Netherlands)
World leading producer of food equipment for processing of meat, poultry, fish, seafood and cheese.
Equipment for preparation: mincing, mixing, cutting, emulsifying, injecting, massaging, tumbling. Equipment for forming, predusting, battering, bread
CFS specialises in performance focused solutions for the food processing industry and the food packaging industry, *from a single machine or packaging material to a complete production line for the preparation, marinating, processing, slicing and packaging of primarily meat, poultry, fish, seafood and cheese based products.*Our promise to you is Lifecycle Performance - solutions that will increase your performance here and now, but also over time.

*Nutreco - An international animal and fish feed business which is involved in pig and poultry processing.* The business was acquired as an MBO from BP plc in September 1994. ICG provided a mezzanine loan for management buyout to support B C Partners/CINVen. In April 1997 the company floated on the Amsterdam Stock Exchange.
Nutreco - Home

*Tegel Foods Ltd - Tegel is the leading poultry producer in New Zealand.* The company offers a broad range of poultry products from fresh and frozen whole birds and portions to value added main meal items. In 2006 ICG provided senior and junior mezzanine loans in addition to equity to support Pacific Equity Partners acquisition from Heinz. In 2011 ICG reinvested US$52.8 million.

*"Tegel goes to great lengths to bring you pure & natural healthy chicken"*
Sure they do. Google "Tegen cruelty"


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## lisa0307 (Aug 25, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> One day some enlightened celebrity is going to appear on a chat show or something and blow the lid off the whole rotten business and then....


Dr Vernon Colman has been going on about it for years and has written several books about cancer and it's causes...he's been asking to go on TV and have a debate but they won't allow him...says everything really 

LINK: http://www.vernoncoleman.com/

LINK: Vernon Coleman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> N
> 
> Americans are consuming huge amounts of dairy - and prostate cancer is now the number one male cancer in America and breast cancer is now the number one female cancer in America, both hormonal cancers, both linked to dairy consumption. And ovarian cancer is too. And many other ailments.


Not this again.....dairy consumption has not been conclusively linked to cancer.
Research is ongoing, and so far has been inconclusive and shown contradictory results:

Cancer Research

You really shouldn't make unfounded claims about health and disease in public...it may get you into trouble one day.

I find your ability to block out what you don't want to believe quite bizarre, and pretty hilarious given how often you call others closed minded. :laugh:


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

lisa0307 said:


> Dr Vernon Colman has been going on about it for years and has written several books about cancer and it's causes...he's been asking to go on TV and have a debate but they won't allow him...says everything really
> 
> LINK: Vernon Coleman - international bestselling novelist and campaigning author
> 
> LINK: Vernon Coleman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Vernon Coleman who claimed the AIDS virus was a hoax in a national newspaper?


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Who the heck are Marlow Foods (bought by Premier Foods) and what do they have to do with Alpro?
> 
> Did I slander Alpro or Provamel? I think not or I wouldn't be writing this, I'd be being sued for everything I and the rest of my family had by Dean Foods but as I jumped on a fair few veggie and vegan forums to spread the word, enquired on their facebook page, wrote pretty much what I said in the original post on their facebook page and have not been sent any form of legal request to attend court I think what I worte was the truth and they could not deny it. Talk about opening a few lids and sticking it to the corporates.
> 
> So, who are Marlow Foods and what do they have to do with plant milks? What research have you done on them as your post makes it sound like you're worried I might start doing some digging again


Oh that's right, it was Deans not Marlow.
Writing off the cuff I'll correct it.

I recall your previous campaign against them (Deans). Never understood it to be honest, as I doubt you drink soya milk, you certainly aren't a vegan and I don't recall any environmental posts from you...

Yes, I saw you on the vegan forum.

Your stance is very like most of my fellow vegans. Deans are the big, bad wolf! I'm more pragmatic about things though.

It would be lovely if one of the smaller concerns, who have an ethical policy that is based on genuinely held beliefs, had taken over the Alpro group, but they didn't have the money and even if they had, they didn't have the network or the influence to promote it.

Deans do have that network and the influence. Like I said they've got their soya milk in food stores the length and breadth of the US, the UK and elsewhere in the West.
Almond milk is going the same way.
And they'll be able to push their hazelnut and rice milks in the same markets as well. 
So practically, it is going to be a trojan horse for veganism and it will serve the cause long term in a way that realistically would have been inconceivable before the takeover. As I said to my vegan friends, you have to see the bigger picture and take a long view.

And of course the placement of all these plant milks provides a viable alternative which makes the decline of dairy a reality, because in anything you cannot have a vacuum.


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## lisa0307 (Aug 25, 2009)

myshkin said:


> Vernon Coleman who claimed the AIDS virus was a hoax in a national newspaper?


LINK: The Really Scary Truth About AIDS


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

lisa0307 said:


> LINK: The Really Scary Truth About AIDS


I find it shocking that people believe this guff. The "scaremongering" by WHO and other organisations prevented an epidemic in many countries. The numbers infected in Africa - you think that's made up?

Astonishing.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Indiandpuppy said:


> What coconut milk do you buy? I buy Kara Coconut Milk with calcium Kara Dairy Free 1lt - - Milk - Non Dairy
> 
> 100ml only has 27 calories and ! not calorific at all
> 
> ...


The one I use is Wonderfarm. Imported from Thailand. It's delicious. Thick and creamy!

I love Rice Dream rice milk too.

Have you heard of/tried Horchata? (A plant milk derived from tigernuts. Plamil make it.)

Yes, I'm a vegan.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Indiandpuppy said:


> What coconut milk do you buy? I buy Kara Coconut Milk with calcium Kara Dairy Free 1lt - - Milk - Non Dairy
> 
> 100ml only has 27 calories and ! not calorific at all
> 
> ...


Let's have a look at Kara Dairy Free - now Koko Dairy Free http://www.kokodairyfree.com/ - who are a brand under First Grade International Ltd http://www.fg-int.co.uk/html/content_global.html (you'll see their name at the bottom of the Koko Dairy Free website) - who source their produce from the Sambu Group in Indonesia http://www.sambugroup.com/index.html

Now the Sambu Group have been taking part in agressive land aquisitions for soem time now. Back in 1996 they were helping out on a global project in West Kalimantan. They were brough in to over see the building of a dam at the mouth of a river in the Indonesian region of Borneo. Here is a snippet from the long email posting about how the project resulted in the deaths of local villagers who were opposed to the deforestation and raping of their lands, you know the same lands that are being destroyed and killing all of the Orangutans:

*Indigenous peoples' rights ignored*

The customary rights over forests, rivers and resources of the original 
Dayak inhabitants of the project area, have not been taken into 
consideration. These communities live mainly along the river banks. They use 
the forests for hunting and gathering forest products, and fish in the 
rivers. These people have not been consulted as to whether they agree or 
not to the project. Their lands have not been demarcated, neither has the 
project's impact on their communities been taken into account, since there 
has been no kind of environmental or social impact study before the start of 
the project. 
The government has tried to play down the possibility of land conflict. One local official even said the case could not be compared with the Kedung Ombo case (the notorious World Bank-financed dam project in Java) since not much land owned by local people was affected and those people would have the opportunity to get rice fields in the project area. What about those who don't want to participate? 
*One report, in the daily Kompas, quotes the public relations officer of PT Sumatra Timor Indonesia, a subsidiary of the main contractor, the Sambu 
Group, describing how traditionally owned (adat) land is appropriated for 
the drainage canals. First he points out that it is not the company's job to 
deal with such matters as this has to be sorted out by the local government. 
He goes on: "There is already a high level of understanding of the 
importance of the project so that they release their land without 
compensation.."* (Kompas 20/6/96)

Full article:- http://www.library.ohiou.edu/indopubs/1997/02/21/0037.html

You can get a petter picture if you put this in google - Kalimantan deforestation coconut plantations

NO real need to go any further into what your money you pay for your delicious coconut milk and your friend pays for their Nutella (palm oil). What's next? Ah yes Blue Diamond Almond Breeze.

Blue Diamond Almond Breeze which is a brand of the Bue DIamond LAmond company that have had many lawsuits brought against them for the treatment of their labour workers. If you look on the ingredients label of your Blue Diamond Almond Breeze carton do you see the ingredient palmitate? I thought so. Check out the Palm Oil industry's destruction of the planet.

Here you are, Blue Diamond Growers are on the second page if you scroll down.

http://www.saynotopalmoil.com/resources/pal oil list PDF.pdf

Where now? Oatly - palm oil again.

Rice Dream - part of the Hain Celestial Group who own poultry farms and various other stuff I am sure I could come up with something on them if I had the time.
http://www.hain-celestial.com/brands.php

As for your friend liking Alpro? Oh dear oh dear oh dear.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wow!! So actually, unless you grow your own Soya, or milk your own cow, goat, etc, then really you can't claim to be more ethical than someone else because it's so difficult to find out exactly where this stuff comes from? Or not difficult to find out, but it's lost in a big mass of large companies that aren't that good?!!


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Dairy and Breast Cancer
(Only a part mention, but the whole piece is worth reading)

Breast Cancer. Hot Topics, cool thinking


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

The famous case of Professor Jane Plant. Had every possible allopathic treatment to no avail. Was diagnosed as "terminal", with no hope of recovery and given only weeks to live. She changed her diet and lifestyle, the main change was giving up dairy produce.
20 years later Jane is still alive, fighting fit and cancer free.

Cure Breast Cancer By Avoiding All Milk Products


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> I recall your previous campaign against them (Deans). Never understood it to be honest, as I doubt you drink soya milk, you certainly aren't a vegan and I don't recall any environmental posts from you...


You never understood that Dean Foods not only try and block medical research for the better but they also fund anit-animal cruelty campaigns?

"Dean Foods has donated to the front group Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF). CCF runs attack campaigns against health, food safety, animal rights and animal welfare advocates."

Do you want to know what the CCF do with the money from Dean Foods Co that YOU GAVE THEM?

"The Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) (formerly called the "Guest Choice Network (GCN)") is a front group for the restaurant, alcohol, tobacco and other industries. It runs media campaigns which oppose the efforts of scientists, doctors, health advocates, animal advocates, environmentalists and groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, calling them "the Nanny Culture -- the growing fraternity of food cops, health care enforcers, anti-meat activists, and meddling bureaucrats who 'know what's best for you.'"
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...nsumer_Freedom

Now do you understand?

You never understood that the dairies that are part of them have been charged with serous offences relating to animal cruelty on their dairy farms?
"In September of 2009, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) revealed footage from a five-month undercover investigation of a Pennsylvania dairy CAFO (Confined Animal Feeding Operation) that supplies milk to Dean Foods label, Land O' Lakes. Land O' Lakes is the largest seller of branded butter in the U.S. The footage documented abuse and neglect of cows and calves at the facility. Cows in pain and unable to stand were electro-shocked and stabbed with a pocket knife. Sick and injured cows were left to languish in their own waste for days and even weeks, without veterinary care. In one case, workers were told to wrap an elastic band around a cow's gangrenous, infected teat to "amputate" it. The cow deteriorated for 11 days before she died"

Do you understand that?

You never understood that all of the dairy brands under their lable are ALL INTENSIVE systems, even the pones that claim to be organic (the cows had never seen a blade of grass)?

On Horizon's dairy farms in the west, thousands of cows that never encounter a blade of grass spend their days confined to a fenced dry lot, eating (certified organic) grain and tethered to milking machines three times a day"

You never undertsood the aggresive land buyouts?

"Dean Foods has been dubbed the Microsoft of the dairy industry due to its aggressive expansion and competitor buy outs".

Do you understand anything that proves your choice in life wrong? Glad you stopped buying it though as I wouldn't buy it if it was the last prioduct on the shelf.

As for "not recalling any environmental posts" from me, what do you think that post was about? Are you really that forgetful?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow!! So actually, unless you grow your own Soya, or milk your own cow, goat, etc, then really you can't claim to be more ethical than someone else because it's so difficult to find out exactly where this stuff comes from? Or not difficult to find out, but it's lost in a big mass of large companies that aren't that good?!!


Yup. Unless you use your local milkman where you can pop down and stroke the cows and give them a dandilion as a little treat.

I don't know how anyone in this country that drinks soya based rubbish can hold their hand up and say "I drink it because it is good for the environment, the daitry indutry is cruel compared to how soya is produced and grown and I know where my product comes from" because basically you ain't got a Scooby. Just because you buy it in a jasmin scented shop where the shelves are made out of reclaimed drift wood and you daren't ask the assistant for anything off the top shelf in case you get a waft of their pungent natural odour does not mean you have bought a more ethical product than a bloke who's just piopped into the local poopermarket. Organic milk is more ethical than soya, almond or rice based alternatives.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

The NOTMILK Homepage! (MILK is a bad-news substance!)


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

19 out of 23 studies have shown a positive association between dairy intake and prostate cancer - National Cancer Institute


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

'This is one of the most consistent dietary predictors for prostate cancer in the published literature...In these studies, men with the highest dairy intakes had approximately double the risk of total prostate cancer and up to a fourfold increase in risk of metastatic or fatal cancer relative to low consumers' - National Cancer Institute


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> The NOTMILK Homepage! (MILK is a bad-news substance!)


It's the same stuff everytime KOA.

What you consume, enjoy and gain nourishment from may keep you in good health or what not but a whole cycle of environments, cultures, species, organisms have to be broken or destroyed.

If I drink milk I may be only killing myself quicker but I have to die anyway but as I can see the cows my milk comes from and with it being organic the only animals that have to die to produce my product is the cow (goes to make other products anyway), the rabbits that eat the grass (I eat them anyway or the dogs do), the farmer (I don't think you'd get many products out of him) and me.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

'Those in the top quarter for blood IGF-1 levels have approximately a three to fourfold increase in risk of breast, prostate or colorectal cancer. This level of increased risk is in the same order as the risk of having cardiovascular disease from a high level of cholesterol' - Professor Jeff Holly 

A Harvard University study showed that men who had the highest levels of IGF-1 had more than four times the risk of prostate cancer compared with those who had the lowest levels - 'Say No To Cancer'


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> It's the same stuff everytime KOA.
> 
> And earlier posts...


And yours isn't? Though I'm obliged for the opportunity to restate the case.

So you're a great environmentalist. Are you a member of Greenpeace? Friends of the Earth? Earthwatch? Who? I'm interested to know.
And these other 'environmental' posts. I remember you bad-mouthing Alpro. But that's it. What else have you posted about? Global warming? Melting ice caps? Nuclear fuel? Fracking? Conservation? Whaling? Poaching?

Yes, the Dairy Industry is cruel. But if 'you' want to bring about the decline and ultimate demise of the Dairy Industry, then teach people of the exploitation and abuse suffered by the cows, and the health dangers to humans, and set in place the promotion and availability of plant milks as a replacement. Then it can happen.

And if companies behave unscrupulously it's up to the consumers to bring about change. They are buying the product, they are providing the profits.
I think we are seeing more shareholders being proactive and demanding more responsibility and accountability and that can only be a good thing.

Grass fed is less cruel than factory farmed - but it still involves exploitation, it still involves cows getting their throats slit in the slaughterhouse when they're worn out and no longer 'productive', and it still involves calves being taken from their mothers (and ending up as veal) so that *you* can have cow's milk on your cornflakes....
You talk of ethics, why not use Plamil soya milk instead? A highly ethical company. It's not the dreaded Alpro and no cows were killed to provide it.
Surely the perfect solution.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> And yours isn't? Though I'm obliged for the opportunity to restate the case.
> 
> So you're a great environmentalist. Are you a member of Greenpeace? Friends of the Earth? Earthwatch? Who? I'm interested to know.
> And these other 'environmental' posts. I remember you bad-mouthing Alpro. But that's it. What else have you posted about? Global warming? Melting ice caps? Nuclear fuel? Fracking? Conservation? Whaling? Poaching?
> ...


Not what the thread was particularly intended for, more just the simple question of whether you prefer soya or dairy products.

I'm not a member of any of those environmental groups, and I don't want to be involved with most of them, because in my view they attract the extremists, which I find distasteful in any part of culture. I don't want to have *your* opinion rammed down my throat all the time about what I eat, I make my own choices, buy locally, and yes I do eat meat and dairy, but it doesn't form a high proportion of my diet. What I do eat is from local farm shops and butchers who source their meat as *ethically* as possible, ie it is all from the local farms around here. The only proviso to that is chicken, which is difficult to find from a good truly organic, free range farmer, the last one I bought from the butchers cost me £17.54, but I'm prepared to pay more for my beliefs; and pork, there are no local pig farmers near us, too hilly, so the closest the butchers could find was in North Yorkshire, about 60 miles or so away.

I also try and buy vegetables locally, although we've become too accustomed to buying what we want these days. I'd like to think that by supporting the local shops that I do, I've reduced the carbon footprint for my food greatly, and I'm also not supporting any of the practices of clearing rainforest for my beef, there's no rainforest in Holmfirth, I'm sure.

I'm not perfect, but then just because a person doesn't eat dairy or meat, doesn't make them or their lifestyle perfect either. We could point fingers at each other all day long, or for several days as this thread has proved. The key is like many things in life, do your research and if it fits in with your beliefs, fine, many are happy to remain ignorant of what they eat, some less so.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

First off, anyone wondering what we are on about with "the Alpro post" and "Badgers", here is the information you need to read:

http://www.petforums.co.uk/general-chat/262087-stop-badger-cull-24.html#post1062310695



Knightofalbion said:


> The one I use is Wonderfarm. Imported from Thailand. It's delicious. Thick and creamy!
> 
> I love Rice Dream rice milk too.
> 
> ...


Before I get onto your big questions let me get this right. You buy a product that has to be shipped over from Thailand (it's actually Vietnam so you really have no idea where your food comes from) and belive you are doing a favour to the environment?

Here is a quick Wonderfarm brand breakdown for you:

Wonderfamr is a brand under the Interfood Shareholding Company (ISC) who were bought out by Trade Ocean Holdings who were then in turn bought out by Kirin Holdings in March 2011 (Acquisition of Additional Shares in Interfood Shareholding Company | News Releases | Kirin Holdings)

Kirin Holdings are quite a large investment company with their fingers in many pies including, you guessed it, DAIRY. Koiwai Dairy Products in another company that Kirin ionvest their money, sorry, your money, in. Looks a nice place, they've spent your money wisely - A Trip to Iwate | Location Information | Hands-on/Tourist Attractions*Natural scenery* (scroll down to 'other business' -http://www.kirinholdings.co.jp/english/company/group/business.html). Again you are funding a dairy industry thousands of miles away where you have no idea what the regulations and treatment of the animals is like and on top of that your delicious product is having to be shipped those same thousands of miles at a carbon footprint cost the size of a small village just so you can put that on your cornflakes. You'd better get planting trees and rapidly.

Now, on with your environmental questions, I'll number them for you as I know you like that format. To behonest I thought that I really do not have to justify myself to someone who makes horrific consumer decisions such as yourself as it was clear what I stood for but the message isn't getting through so I'll entertain your questions.



Knightofalbion said:


> And yours isn't? Though I'm obliged for the opportunity to restate the case.
> 
> *(1)*So you're a great environmentalist . *(2)*Are you a member of Greenpeace? Friends of the Earth? Earthwatch? Who? I'm interested to know.
> And these other 'environmental' posts. I remember you bad-mouthing Alpro. But that's it. *(3)*What else have you posted about? Global warming? Melting ice caps? Nuclear fuel? Fracking? Conservation? Whaling? Poaching?
> ...


1). Where have I said or advocated I am a great envronmentalist? I have simply pointed out that the alternative dairy products you consume and have so openly promoted are funding the dairy industry, maybe to your annoyance but I am only letting you know where your products come from, what has had to happen to get them ready and what else your money (their profits) are being spent on, if you don't like then don't buy it. You clearly have no idea that just because it has a nice clean label that looks all healthy and friendly that you are contributing to habitat loss on a vast scale, are killing species left right and centre, are harming the environment with your products having to be shipped thousands of miles to your mouth. 
I buy my milk from a farm about a mile from my house. I have popped in with my old bottles and bought direct from the farm. I have see the cows, I have touched the cows and I have fed the cows. What I buy is right in front of my face and in my immediate environment. I have worked on dairy farms so I know the whole ins and outs of what goes on.

2). I fail to see what me being a memeber of any organisation has to do with a dairy vs soya debate.

3). Again, I fail to see what the subjects I post about has any relevence to this debate. My profile is open to you to hapily browse all of my posts so if you want to see what I've posted about then feel free.

4). But I don't want to shut down the dairy industry. As I have made very clear from the badger thread to here, I am in full support of the British farmers and British dairy industry. Why woudl I want to shut down an industry that is the most heavily monitored, legislated and best dairy industry in the world? British livestock lives to THE best standards in the EU and the EU has very strict animal right policies, the best in the world so that makes British livestick THE BEST CARED FOR IN THE WORLD. 
Any plant based product has to have clear ground to be cultivated on meaning forest clearance has to take place and whatever animals lived in that forest lose their habitat and numbers rapidly delcine as a result. You consume cash crops and high value cash crops at that. Do you really thuink your soya and coconut products come from a 400hectare plantation or trees on the beach? What about all of the irrigation draw-off that needs to happen to water these huge vast deserts of single species forest? Don't other plants and animals need that water yet they have to go without? What about all of the nitrates that get washed back into the eco-system due the plantations having to provide artificial fertiliser to ensure the plants keep producing year after year after the soil ahs been raped of all nutrients within the first three years or so? Are you really that numb to the industry and iognorant to mass production on the scales that your products involve and still question other people's choices and get annoyed when this is pointed out to you? It is your choice, base it on a bit of basic research if it means that much to you, I seemed to have done all of the research for you so change.
In the badger thread you somehow brought up American livestock farming. I don't give any money to to any foreign livestock industry. How do I knwo this? I go see the anuimals I am about to consume wandering about in the fields, see the conditions of the farm and if I really wanted I could ask to see the animal's passport and paperwork to make sure it is legitimate.

5). How can you even start to think you need to point this out to me? It has been ME that has shown you where your money goes. I see my money go into the farmer's back pocket so I knwo it will be spent on the farm, the animals or a pint in the local pub. Your money has been filtered all over into industries you had no idea were inter-linked because you are so ignorant of your choices and blinkered by media guff, promotions and marketing startegies that are so thin they are like glass - look at what I can find with just a keyboard and a bit of thought!

6). Are you serious? A cow becomes non-profitable and therefore is sold for pet food amongst other products. A dairy calf is turned into veil but I eat veil as I don't like things going to waste. What about all fo the millions upon millions of animals that have died to make way for your precious soya, coconut and palm oil products? Were they reused or just left in firebreak ditches or just wjhere they fell to rot? What about all of the adult animals that were caught up in the gas clouds to exterminate any animal in an area whilst their young starved in the nest? What about all of the animals that are poisoned and face a long drawn out and excrutiating death due the inhilation or consumption fo the pesticides and herbicides to ensure the producers of the cash crops get a bumper crop to meet your consumer demands?

7). I like seeing cows in fields and I want my grandchildren to see cows in fields.

I look forward to your answer to the questios I have posed to yourself.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not what the thread was particularly intended for, more just the simple question of whether you prefer soya or dairy products.
> 
> I'm not a member of any of those environmental groups, and I don't want to be involved with most of them, because in my view they attract the extremists, which I find distasteful in any part of culture. I don't want to have *your* opinion rammed down my throat all the time about what I eat, I make my own choices, buy locally, and yes I do eat meat and dairy, but it doesn't form a high proportion of my diet. What I do eat is from local farm shops and butchers who source their meat as *ethically* as possible, ie it is all from the local farms around here. The only proviso to that is chicken, which is difficult to find from a good truly organic, free range farmer, the last one I bought from the butchers cost me £17.54, but I'm prepared to pay more for my beliefs; and pork, there are no local pig farmers near us, too hilly, so the closest the butchers could find was in North Yorkshire, about 60 miles or so away.
> 
> ...


Nobody needs to justify themselves to soemone so blinkered to their own choices and who refuses to stand up and accpet the atrocious choices they have made, promoted and tried to convince other is "the best for everyone, animals and the envrionment". The same person who says that drinking milk will kill you who I have already admitted I am willing to make that sacrifice if it means I am not impacting on the wider world but this person takes the ultimate selfish route of "I won't die from what I consume" but billions others will beacuse, during and long after their decision to consume that product. What an adrmirable decision and stance to take.

They talk about "global warming" and ask what other's posts and support of that is and yet the products they are consuming demands that water be taken out fo the hydro-cycle which instantly increases the selinity of the oceans meaning temperatures have to be lower for longer to create the sheet ice and stem global warming. They have zero idea about butterfly effects or knock-on effects of their choices, just what is best for them and their body.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> 19 out of 23 studies have shown a positive association between dairy intake and prostate cancer - National Cancer Institute


I suggest you read and sign this then: Stop the Soy Industry from Destroying Human Health and Rare Ecosystems - ForceChange


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> 1). Where have I said or advocated I am a great envronmentalist? I have simply pointed out that the alternative dairy products you consume and have so openly promoted are funding the dairy industry


Unfortunately multinationals being multinational will always have fingers in many pies and some of these will be unethical. However buying a non-dairy product from a company that also has a dairy enterprise is no more promoting the dairy industry than buying a tomato from sainsburys promotes the beef industry. Dairy products and alternative dairy products are in direct market competition - buying one directly reduces the demand for the other. If all dean foods money started coming through alpro they'd drop their dairy interest pretty fast.



hutch6 said:


> You clearly have no idea that just because it has a nice clean label that looks all healthy and friendly that you are contributing to habitat loss on a vast scale, are killing species left right and centre, are harming the environment with your products having to be shipped thousands of miles to your mouth.
> I buy my milk from a farm about a mile from my house. I have popped in with my old bottles and bought direct from the farm. I have see the cows, I have touched the cows and I have fed the cows. What I buy is right in front of my face and in my immediate environment. I have worked on dairy farms so I know the whole ins and outs of what goes on.


Right, so what do dairy cows eat? It's basic food chain common sense time. Do the majority of UK dairy cows just eat grass? No because they'd all keel over from ketosis. Modern dairy cows eat a lot of grains and they eat lots of protein, mainly soya. They eat lots more of it than any human ever could and if you want to talk about habitat loss, environmental issues and shipping products halfway round the world look no further than dairy feed.

All dairy farmers in the UK pay a levy to Dairyco - look at the common ration ingredients they recommend and notice the 3 soya products 
Common Ration Ingredients . Notice that one of these products is Soya (Brazilian), where do you think that comes from and what rainforest may be being felled to produce it? If a 200 head milking herd were feeding the listed 5kg per cow per day then that herd is going to be consuming 7000 kg Brazilian soya every week.

The inconvenient truth is that its not UK vegans destroying South American habitat, it's absolutely UK livestock -

assets.wwf.org.uk/downloads/soya_and_the_cerrado.pdf‎

"The UK is a significant user of South American soya, especially in feed for poultry, pigs and dairy cattle. Imports into the UK require an area almost the size of Yorkshire to be planted with soya overseas, in order to meet demand."

"It can be estimated that poultry feed in 2010 used something over 1m tonnes of soya meal, approximately half of the entire annual imports to the UK.14Dairy cattle and pig rations are each likely to account for about one-third of the quantity of soya fed to poultry, while beef cattle use a somewhat smaller proportion as their diets are mainly grass and grain based. "



hutch6 said:


> 4). But I don't want to shut down the dairy industry. As I have made very clear from the badger thread to here, I am in full support of the British farmers and British dairy industry. Why woudl I want to shut down an industry that is the most heavily monitored, legislated and best dairy industry in the world? British livestock lives to THE best standards in the EU and the EU has very strict animal right policies, the best in the world so that makes British livestick THE BEST CARED FOR IN THE WORLD.


The EU has no animal rights policies, they have animal welfare policies. Just because policies exist doesn't mean they are adhered to. Lameness is one of the most serious welfare issues on dairy farms because it's incredibly painful for the cow. yet even dairyco admits "Several studies have aimed to measure the actual level of lameness incidence in UK dairy herds and it has been estimated that, on average, more than half the cows in some herds could experience lameness problems in any single twelve-month period. " Dairy Cow Mobility and Lameness
For me that just isn't acceptable.



hutch6 said:


> Any plant based product has to have clear ground to be cultivated on meaning forest clearance has to take place and whatever animals lived in that forest lose their habitat and numbers rapidly delcine as a result. You consume cash crops and high value cash crops at that. Do you really thuink your soya and coconut products come from a 400hectare plantation or trees on the beach? What about all of the irrigation draw-off that needs to happen to water these huge vast deserts of single species forest? Don't other plants and animals need that water yet they have to go without? What about all of the nitrates that get washed back into the eco-system due the plantations having to provide artificial fertiliser to ensure the plants keep producing year after year after the soil ahs been raped of all nutrients within the first three years or so? Are you really that numb to the industry and iognorant to mass production on the scales that your products involve and still question other people's choices and get annoyed when this is pointed out to you? It is your choice, base it on a bit of basic research if it means that much to you, I seemed to have done all of the research for you so change.


Again, it's basic food chain stuff. Cows eat plants (and fish!) and so contribute fully to all these environmental issues associated with arable farming. By using those crops to produce dairy milk you're just adding another level to the food chain - an inefficient level that needs an insane amounts of water, land, feed and drugs and emits very high levels of green house gases.



hutch6 said:


> I don't give any money to to any foreign livestock industry. How do I knwo this? I go see the anuimals I am about to consume wandering about in the fields, see the conditions of the farm and if I really wanted I could ask to see the animal's passport and paperwork to make sure it is legitimate.


Does your dairy farm use artificial insemination like most farms in the UK? If so its likely the semen used to impregnate the herd comes from abroad, probably the U.S.A.



hutch6 said:


> How can you even start to think you need to point this out to me? It has been ME that has shown you where your money goes. I see my money go into the farmer's back pocket so I knwo it will be spent on the farm, the animals or a pint in the local pub. Your money has been filtered all over into industries you had no idea were inter-linked because you are so ignorant of your choices and blinkered by media guff, promotions and marketing startegies that are so thin they are like glass - look at what I can find with just a keyboard and a bit of thought!


If you think your dairy farm does not have an international supply chain then I think you'll find you're very, very wrong.



hutch6 said:


> 6). Are you serious? A cow becomes non-profitable and therefore is sold for pet food amongst other products. A dairy calf is turned into veil but I eat veil as I don't like things going to waste.


What happens to a dairy bull calf very much depends on the market and the calf. The veal market isn't big and most pure dairy bulls aren't worth rearing for beef so many still get the bullet shortly after birth. It's probably because I'm female that I find it so inherently abhorrent to have a cow carry a calf for 285 days, bring it's life into the world and then destroy it within hours as it has no value.



hutch6 said:


> 7). I like seeing cows in fields and I want my grandchildren to see cows in fields.


Give it 20 years and we won't have many dairy cows in fields. The dairy industry cannot sustain itself on the prices being paid to smaller producers at the moment so these smaller producers are pulling out and the dairy industry is industrialising. It's very likely that big zero grazing units with intensively bred Holsteins and rotary parlours are the future of dairy. A niche organic and extensive sector will probably still exist but it will be just that, a niche.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Before I get onto your big questions let me get this right. You buy a product that has to be shipped over from Thailand (it's actually Vietnam so you really have no idea where your food comes from) and belive you are doing a favour to the environment?
> 
> Here is a quick Wonderfarm brand breakdown for you:
> 
> ...


Bad-mouthing again. That's all you ever seem to do.

I think it is entirely relevant. You aren't a member of any environmental groups. You haven't posted any posts on here concerning environmental issues. 
All you do is scour the Internet seeing what dirt you can dig up on people or companies. What sort of person does that?

These things are seldom black and white. They also provide jobs and revenue for local economies without which the workers would be homeless and destitute.

Thanks for alerting us though to all these injustices. Though it might be better to use your obviously considerable energy and free time to raise the issues BEFORE they happen rather than afterwards! That helps no-one.
And you could try sticking with it...Don't blow hot and cold.

Okay, so you kill rabbits and you pat cows then eat their calves and drink the milk nature intended for them. I don't call that very ethical. Why not drink Plamil soya milk and leave the milk for the calves? Why eat veal? That's disgusting. You don't need meat. It isn't essential for life. It isn't even the best source of protein. 
And Mike Tyson for example is a vegan and has been for several years now. He's a changed person. If he can do it, so can you. Nothing is stopping you.

You talk the talk, LOUDLY, try walking the walk.

As I said, an area of rainforest the size of France was cut down and lost forever to supply meat for beef burgers! Most farmland in this country was originally beautiful woodland.

Spare us the crocodile tears. That's fooling nobody. And get your facts straight. The great majority of soya grown in the world is to provide animal feed for the meat industry. 
*90% of all soya, 80% of all corn and 70% of all grains combined grown in the USA is to provide feed for livestock.
*If all the grain used for livestock in the USA alone was used to feed people instead of livestock it would provide food enough for 800 MILLION PEOPLE.
* Only about 6% of global soybean production is used directly as human food - and most of that goes to Asia. 
* About 85% of global soya production is used as animal feed.

As for water. It takes 15,500 litres of water to produce one kilo of beef. A scandalous waste of precious resources.

If you care about the planet, if it isn't all just hot air, put your money where your mouth is, lead by example and follow a plant-based diet.

Lets hear what else you eat so it can be held up to scrutiny. Do you smoke? Do you drive? Where are your clothes from? What are they made of? I think you'll find you'll fall foul of your own moral guidelines or don't they apply to you?

You like seeing cows in fields and you want your grandchildren to see cows in fields... When are you emigrating to Canada? Calgary wasn't it or did you say Toronto? 
You won't be able to get raw milk from farms in Canada, it's illegal.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I suggest you read and sign this then: Stop the Soy Industry from Destroying Human Health and Rare Ecosystems - ForceChange


Around 85% of soya is directly used to feed livestock. 
Sign petitions? Stop eating meat!!!!


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> 19 out of 23 studies have shown a positive association between dairy intake and prostate cancer - National Cancer Institute


Several large population studies have shown that consumption of soy foods is associated with a reduction in prostate cancer risk in men, is significantly associated with decreased risk of death and recurrence of breast cancer among women and may reduce the risk of colorectal cancer in postmenopausal women - Wikipedia


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Dairy v Soya

Jane Plant gives her opinion

Cancer Active -

Jane Plant


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm sorry but some of the posts which seem to be saying soya good, dairy devil's spawn, are very naieve. Soya doesn't just magically grow with no consequences, it has to be protected with pesticides, and encouraged to grow with fertilizers. It has to have somewhere to grow, and if everyone stopped drinking dairy milk tomorrow, and relied on soya milk production, I very much doubt if there would be many debates about where would be the best place to grow soya without impacting on the environment, it would be a free for all and so in reality, suffering would be moved to another *place*. 

And I thought colliebarmy was the worst for posting polls, I've lost count of the links on this thread but really? Are they all necessary? Why not just have an intelligent debate without all the accusations??


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry but some of the posts which seem to be saying soya good, dairy devil's spawn, are very naieve. Soya doesn't just magically grow with no consequences, it has to be protected with pesticides, and encouraged to grow with fertilizers. It has to have somewhere to grow, and if everyone stopped drinking dairy milk tomorrow, and relied on soya milk production, I very much doubt if there would be many debates about where would be the best place to grow soya without impacting on the environment, it would be a free for all and so in reality, suffering would be moved to another *place*.


The thing is that it isn't a choice between dairy consumption and soya consumption. The dairy industry consumes vast, vast amounts of soya - just because you don't see it on the milk bottle doesn't mean it isn't part of the process. Feeding soya to livestock is a far less efficient way of getting nutrition out of an arable crop than feeding it direct to humans - less soya used + non of the welfare issues of livestock production = more ethical IMO.

And soya grown for human consumption does seem to be more environmentally sound than that grown to be fed to cows. I can't think of one soya milk brand that uses South American or GM soya, they know that consumers may catch them out if they did. Much of the soya fed to livestock on the other hand comes from rainforest land and, now that the supermarkets have allowed it, is genetically modified - consumer don't see it, so they can get away with it.


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## Guest (May 1, 2013)

hutch6 said:


> A dairy calf is turned into veil but I eat veil


Its veal...


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry but some of the posts which seem to be saying soya good, dairy devil's spawn, are very naieve. Soya doesn't just magically grow with no consequences, it has to be protected with pesticides, and encouraged to grow with fertilizers. It has to have somewhere to grow, and if everyone stopped drinking dairy milk tomorrow, and relied on soya milk production, I very much doubt if there would be many debates about where would be the best place to grow soya without impacting on the environment, it would be a free for all and so in reality, suffering would be moved to another *place*.
> 
> And I thought colliebarmy was the worst for posting polls, I've lost count of the links on this thread but really? Are they all necessary? Why not just have an intelligent debate without all the accusations??


In the first place it was you who asked the question 'Dairy or soya'. And if you ask, people are going to tell you - and they're going to tell you WHY.

And it's you who are being naive. 85% of soya is grown to provide animal feed, pure and simple. It's meat production that is the main culprit in fueling the growth of soya.
Some soya is used for soya milk production. But soya is used as a 'filler' ingredient in a myriad of processed foods. It's even present in a lot of processed meat products. (No one here is advocating processed/junk food wheter or not it contains soya.) And in any case the mainstay of the soya grown for food production is used for traditional fermented soya products that have been used by the Chinese and other Asian peoples/countries for centuries.

As I said earlier there are up to 6 plant milks available here, more than that in America. (Soya, almond, hazelnut, rice, oat and coconut. * There is also a tigernut milk, but it's not in supermarkets) So there's plenty of choice. And no cows get killed!

As I also said earlier all soya milk, under EU law, has to be labelled if contains GM soya. Which of course would be a sales killer, which is why they use non-GM soya.

Producers can however feed livestock GM soya and other GM animal feed for meat and milk production without having to declare it to the consumer.

I think you'll find that pretty much most crops, certainly the great majority, don't just 'magically grow' as you put it. Pesticides and artificial fertilizers are industry standard. Wheat, corn, whatever, it's all the same.

In for a penny, in for a pound. Here's another link for you. The price of milk.
Animal Aid


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry but some of the posts which seem to be saying soya good, dairy devil's spawn, are very naieve. Soya doesn't just magically grow with no consequences, it has to be protected with pesticides, and encouraged to grow with fertilizers. It has to have somewhere to grow, and if everyone stopped drinking dairy milk tomorrow, and relied on soya milk production, I very much doubt if there would be many debates about where would be the best place to grow soya without impacting on the environment, it would be a free for all and so in reality, suffering would be moved to another *place*.
> 
> And I thought colliebarmy was the worst for posting polls, I've lost count of the links on this thread but really? Are they all necessary? Why not just have an intelligent debate without all the accusations??


The links are all terrible sources of info too....KOA is on a mission to convert others to his beliefs about medicine and nutrition, which are something of a religion to him. Consequently all of his links are from totally unreliable, unscientific sources. Opinion posing as research, which is a dangerous thing when it comes to health.
Oh, and Wiki!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

myshkin said:


> The links are all terrible sources of info too....KOA is on a mission to convert others to his beliefs about medicine and nutrition, which are something of a religion to him. Consequently all of his links are from totally unreliable, unscientific sources. Opinion posing as research, which is a dangerous thing when it comes to health.
> Oh, and Wiki!


I've lost the will to even open the links, they don't seem to be many from peer reviewed scientific studies, and you can just as easily google information to support the opposite view!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've lost the will to even open the links, they don't seem to be many from peer reviewed scientific studies, and you can just as easily google information to support the opposite view!


There are none from peer reviewed scientific studies....typical sources include: a supplement seller who has been convicted of making fraudulent claims by the ASA; alternative health practitioners with a vested interest in smearing conventional medicine; and the downright laughably loopy nutcases (cf. the "diseases" supposedly caused by milk).
I have pointed this out so many times that I'm fairly sure he now has me on ignore....this guy is here purely to convert and preach, he has no interest in fact, reason or reality.


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)




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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

SammyJo said:


>


:laugh::laugh:

Naughty! I have work to do, so I shouldn't be wasting time entertaining you today!

:laugh:


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Out of the shadows....

Strange isn't it. They can quote Wikipedia and it's a reliable source. When I play them at their own game suddenly it's an unreliable source.

And on the subject of 'unreliable sources'? The National Cancer Institute (US government) Harvard University, Professor Jeff Holly, the world's leading expert on IGF-1, CancerActive, a registered charity (their magazine goes out to hospitals and health centres all over the UK) ...And don't worry there's plenty more to come.

And Jane Plant, a highly respected scientist, received every conceivable allopathic treatment, was treated by the very best and most highly qualified doctors, and yet was told her BC was incurable, terminal, with no hope of recovery and she had only a few weeks to live. That was 20 years ago and yet she's still here and cancer-free. (Yes, the central part of her recovery was cutting out the dairy produce, the growth hormones in which were fueling the cancer cell growth. Though general changes in her diet and lifestyle are also part of her regime.) I'd say that was worth listening to.

And if certain people here think it's all rubbish. Then why not 'put your money where your mouth is'? Drink a pint of milk a day and make it part of your daily dietary routine and see where it leads you.
If you're right, you'll end up the picture of health you'll have the last laugh! And if you're wrong, you'll end up with chemotherapy, radiation and a mastectomy.


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> Out of the shadows....
> 
> Strange isn't it. They can quote Wikipedia and it's a reliable source. When I play them at their own game suddenly it's an unreliable source.
> 
> ...


What a lovely thing to say :thumbdown:


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

lennythecloud said:


> Unfortunately multinationals being multinational will always have fingers in many pies and some of these will be unethical. However buying a non-dairy product from a company that also has a dairy enterprise is no more promoting the dairy industry than buying a tomato from sainsburys promotes the beef industry. Dairy products and alternative dairy products are in direct market competition - buying one directly reduces the demand for the other. If all dean foods money started coming through alpro they'd drop their dairy interest pretty fast.


I don't buy any dairy products or any alternative dairy products that are under the Dean Foods umbrella.
I don't use poopermarkets either for my food and I have made my position on this very clear with my previous posts.



lennythecloud said:


> Right, so what do dairy cows eat? It's basic food chain common sense time. Do the majority of UK dairy cows just eat grass? No because they'd all keel over from ketosis. Modern dairy cows eat a lot of grains and they eat lots of protein, mainly soya. They eat lots more of it than any human ever could and if you want to talk about habitat loss, environmental issues and shipping products halfway round the world look no further than dairy feed.
> 
> All dairy farmers in the UK pay a levy to Dairyco - look at the common ration ingredients they recommend and notice the 3 soya products
> Common Ration Ingredients . Notice that one of these products is Soya (Brazilian), where do you think that comes from and what rainforest may be being felled to produce it? If a 200 head milking herd were feeding the listed 5kg per cow per day then that herd is going to be consuming 7000 kg Brazilian soya every week.


Fortunately the two dairy farms I use are certified organic meaning that everything from the soil on the fields where the grass grows to the feed and the end product must not have been supplimented by a non-organic material. Next time I am down there I shall get a detailed list of products and methods for you.



lennythecloud said:


> The inconvenient truth is that its not UK vegans destroying South American habitat, it's absolutely UK livestock -
> 
> assets.wwf.org.uk/downloads/soya_and_the_cerrado.pdf‎
> 
> ...


I've already mentioned the dairy herds I use but as far as I can tell the chickens I get my eggs from and eat are raised on a livery yard which has woodland and an acre pond (it was a water supply for an old redundant wool mill that shut down circa 1920) so they have load sof grass and insects to feast on as well as the mice and odd table scraps they get; my parent's chickens are fed on table scraps, bird seed that gets knocked off of the tables and feeders and whatver they can forage from the large garden and hedgerows along with the mice they find in old barn.
Pork product is bought from an organic non-intensive free range business run by a couple that go to two of the local farmer's markets.
Beef and veal (!) is bought from another organic farmer that has an onsite farm shop so I can see the product wandering about.
Lamb was obtained from the same organic on-site farm shop as the beef but I've started doing various jobs direct for the farmer so I get a few bits ion the side instead of payment for the work carried out.

I very rarely buy meat, only on a special occasion so I don't mind paying a much higher price for a product that I know has been treated right from field to plate. Any other meat in my diet (about 70%) is from the field directly through my own actions and I know for a fact that is free range, organic, hasn't been fed up on soya or anything other than a natural diet that grows in the wild (except game birds that are a by-product of the local shoots which are either shot in season or I beat for the shoot in exchange for birds or th odd day's shooting rights on the land).



lennythecloud said:


> The EU has no animal rights policies, they have animal welfare policies. Just because policies exist doesn't mean they are adhered to. Lameness is one of the most serious welfare issues on dairy farms because it's incredibly painful for the cow. yet even dairyco admits "Several studies have aimed to measure the actual level of lameness incidence in UK dairy herds and it has been estimated that, on average, more than half the cows in some herds could experience lameness problems in any single twelve-month period. " Dairy Cow Mobility and Lameness
> For me that just isn't acceptable.


Sorry but that sounds to me like it is a direct consequence of intensive systems which I will not fund nor agree with. 
The herds that produce my product are brought in around 06:00 from the fields, back out into the field, brough back in at 18:00 and back out to the field again. When they are inside over winter they are kept in large areas with enough space for the beasts to spread out and lie down all at the same time. They are either on fields or straw bedding upto about a foot deep, they are not in concrete pens or stalls.
Both herds are pure bred Ayrshires and as far as I am aware (been told and read) are less prone to mobility conditions than the more popular Fresian breed. Each cow is assessed at least three times per day - twice being milked and once as a routine livestock check. Any that are deemed to be struggling or walking uneasy are checked and dealt with either by hoof trimming, ointment or the vet is called in - they are not left for long before the issue is dealt with. Don't get me wrong, I love animals, I am not shouting about practices that are cruel in anyway quite the opposite. IF the animals weren't being treated well I wouldn't be using the farms which is why I liek testing the farmers by standing next to a cow about 100yrds from them and askign them what number is on the cow's ear tag, I think they have only got 2 or 3 wrong between them, that is how non-intensive the systems are.



lennythecloud said:


> Again, it's basic food chain stuff. Cows eat plants (and fish!) and so contribute fully to all these environmental issues associated with arable farming. By using those crops to produce dairy milk you're just adding another level to the food chain - an inefficient level that needs an insane amounts of water, land, feed and drugs and emits very high levels of green house gases.


The water for one farm comes from a natural on-site spring (feeds the farm house as well) and natural run off water which is why they made the easy switch to organic years ago. The other uses water drawn from the human supply along with natural run off water. All of this is tested periodically for contaminents and ph levels.



lennythecloud said:


> Does your dairy farm use artificial insemination like most farms in the UK? If so its likely the semen used to impregnate the herd comes from abroad, probably the U.S.A.


No. Both farms export their bull semen to USA, Canada and the big one a year or so ago was Japan. They both have record books that show that they have very distant related breeding stock depsite being 100miles apart. They both know each other as they are both passionate about the Ayrshire breed with their lineage going back decades. They are not industry owned farms but private and have been for generations. The vast majority of their milk goes abroad to the Continent as there just isn't the demand for it here and they get a better price.



lennythecloud said:


> If you think your dairy farm does not have an international supply chain then I think you'll find you're very, very wrong.


As far as I am aware it is the other way in that they export, not buy import but I can double check that.



lennythecloud said:


> What happens to a dairy bull calf very much depends on the market and the calf. The veal market isn't big and most pure dairy bulls aren't worth rearing for beef so many still get the bullet shortly after birth. It's probably because I'm female that I find it so inherently abhorrent to have a cow carry a calf for 285 days, bring it's life into the world and then destroy it within hours as it has no value.


Not on al dairy farms. The calves are all kept with their mothers for at least a month regardless of sex. An assessment is made of the quality of the calf if it is male and it is then either sold at market to cross to make a decent yield dairy /beef mix, sold to other Ayrshire herd farms to expand the gene pool and keep the lines pure and not crossed, if it is defective in any way then it is culled to prevent future contamination of the breed and after all this, if it is still not required then it will be sold at market. In the last 15yrs or so I have been involved with both farms, hand on heart, I have never seen a calf being culled on site for any reason other than illness or defect after assessment. I have never seen a calf taken away from its mother at less than four weeks old as they stagger the breeding so there aren't loads of cows out of the milking line at any time - hence why they don't show their bulls at shows as they are just too dangerous. This allows them to spend time with the calves and ensure they have the best start in life. 
There is still a bull on one fo the farms that was raised from calf and you could wrestle it around, play with it like a dog etc until it got to about 18months old and then it charged the farmer. The bull isn't trusted by the farmer but he has kept it on as he knows everything but its personality is top draw and the last I heard there were a couple of interested buyers so it's just biding its time on the farm at a cost to him at the moment when he could have culled it.



lennythecloud said:


> Give it 20 years and we won't have many dairy cows in fields. The dairy industry cannot sustain itself on the prices being paid to smaller producers at the moment so these smaller producers are pulling out and the dairy industry is industrialising. It's very likely that big zero grazing units with intensively bred Holsteins and rotary parlours are the future of dairy. A niche organic and extensive sector will probably still exist but it will be just that, a niche.


When or if that happens and I am unable to source products from a non-intensive scheme with zero grazing then I shall stop buying the products all together but at the minute I am trying to keep that from happening by paying a little more for my dairy products than I would if I used a supplier that went through a milk wholesaler. An extra 4p per litre is all that is required to ensure that farmers do not have turn to intensive schemes or go out of business and I am more than hapy to pay that and indeed pay far more than that. I would happily and proudly support the niche.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> Out of the shadows....
> 
> Strange isn't it. They can quote Wikipedia and it's a reliable source. When I play them at their own game suddenly it's an unreliable source.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but one person cutting out dairy and *happening* to be a cancer survivor (and a scientist) does not prove that consuming dairy products is going to kill us all. IGF-1 is something that naturally occurs in humans, and perhaps a high consumption of artificially high dairy products with IGF-1 *could* constitute a risk, but then most things in excess will most likely have unwanted side effects that could also affect our health.

It's not about having a laugh at anyone else's expense, and it's a fairly rotten thing to post about people ending up with cancer, it's not a laughing matter.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> Out of the shadows....
> 
> Strange isn't it. They can quote Wikipedia and it's a reliable source. When I play them at their own game suddenly it's an unreliable source.
> 
> ...


Out of the shadows, aye, that's me, lurking in my true lizard form, waiting to don my human suit and poison people with milk :laugh:

Jane Plant is a quack, a supposed scientist (geologist apparently), who doesn't understand the simple concept that correlation does not = causation. A GCSE science student is expected to understand that!

I drink plenty of milk thanks, and my health has suffered in no way whatsoever because of it. I'm sure you can't wait for the news of my chemo etc. though. 

ETA: I do not quote Wiki....you must have me confused with someone else.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Out of the shadows, aye, that's me, lurking in my true lizard form, waiting to don my human suit and poison people with milk :laugh:
> 
> Jane Plant is a quack, a supposed scientist (geologist apparently), who doesn't understand the simple concept that correlation does not = causation. A GCSE science student is expected to understand that!
> 
> ...


As said on another thread Qualifications =/= Evidence. He fails to acknowledge this fact.

If the author were to do a proper, coherant, scientifically sound study - and published it for peer review, then we would pay it more heed.

I have a degree in Engineering, however if i posted a website saying that electric shocks are actually good for you, I have had several and am in perfect health ergo shocks will improve your vitality.... it wouldnt make it true, factual, or scientific.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

SammyJo said:


> What a lovely thing to say :thumbdown:


But true. A dear friend of mine had breast cancer and a double mastectomy and its certainly no joke.

It took them years before they declared smoking to be carcinogenic. Okay lots of people continued and still do despite knowing the risks, but hear the argument and make your choice. *That's the point.* People have a right to know. Especially if it effects them and their loved ones.

Research the matter, the majority of cancers could be averted by diet and lifestyle changes.
Not to mention the other health issues.

Plus the meat industry is doing untold damage to the environment. ('We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children')

Not to mention the carnage being reaped on the Animal Kingdom.
Sometimes I forget this is an animal lover's forum, because a lot of the time compassion seems in very short supply...

Alright you and others may not see as I see, but when you come to recognise that all life is one and that animals have souls as we do and are on their own evolutionary path, then eating meat/animal products becomes untenable (as much as it would be to eat human flesh) and cruelty and abuse of animals becomes something one seeks to oppose at every turn.

And if one of your beloved pets were to die tomorrow, would I not find you lamenting on the Rainbow Bridge section aching at its loss and hoping you'll see it again? You will don't worry. And why? Because it has a soul - as all animals do. Even the ones abused, exploited and killed by and on behalf of people who know no better and those who should know better.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Heckers peckers!! Where do I start with this?!?!



Knightofalbion said:


> Bad-mouthing again. That's all you ever seem to do.


Bad mouthing? What am I bad mouthing? All I did was make it clear where the produce came from. If you want to import your food from the otherside of the world then go for it, just don't make it out as though it is environmentally friendly to do so.



Knightofalbion said:


> I think it is entirely relevant. You aren't a member of any environmental groups. You haven't posted any posts on here concerning environmental issues.
> All you do is scour the Internet seeing what dirt you can dig up on people or companies. What sort of person does that?


I'll take a stab in the dark with this one and say maybe the type of person who uses information freely available to them is someone who cares about where their food comes from and what impacts on the environment that has.

So I've never advocated buying locally instead of using huge multi-nationals that take the control of your produce and environment out of your hands?
I've never raised awareness about the plight of the pollinators?
I've changed my stance on the badger cull after learning it wasn't a trial area but a nationwide scheme and as I am out collecting my food when they are most active then I haven't been checking the area for licenced shooters intent on culling them as I said I would? I belive I said "If they role out a national cull I will gladly join you (noushka I think it was) in front of the guns"
So I wasn't involved in the petition of rejection for nuclear waste sites being created in Cumbria depsite my father being one of the head spokes people, campaign runners and lobyists aginst the proposal?
So I wasn't straight onto my local MP (and the PM) the moment I found out the voted in favour of selling Brtitish woodland to make a quick profit when the recession first hit and then posted it on here to encourage othe rpeopel to do the same?
So I never posted against the palm oil industry?
And I never asked you about your action against the multitude of micro-hyrdoelectric units that are pathetically ecenomical and the damage they cause would only be offset by hundereds of years in use and that you are living in THE hotspot for these and you never replied?
Maybe I shouldn't volunteer my time at shows and events on behalf of the Salmon and Trout Association (that petition against micro-hydroelectric units) to run courses, raise funds, educate and provide information for people along with clearing rivers of debris, dumped rubbish, fly-tipped waste, replanting aqutic plants to encourage a healthy eco-system in our rivers and water quality? No nothing like that.

Just because I don't post about half the stuff I do doesn't mean I'm not involved in things, I just don't feel the need to ram it down people's throats, I just get off of my backside and get on with it.

Just because a person is a member of various organisations and associations doesn't mean they have to shout about it as though it somehow puts them in an elevated position than someone who doesn't.

Whatever associaitions, organisations or environmental groups you are a member of or subscribe to matters squat to me, you still have your food imported across the globe rather than either sourcing it locally direct from the grower, growing it yourself or going without.



Knightofalbion said:


> These things are seldom black and white. They also provide jobs and revenue for local economies without which the workers would be homeless and destitute.


No muck Sherlock! Really? I'd rather support a local business where I can see the direct impact of my money rather than fund some largescale operation thousands of miles away that has no quarms about destroying their local environment in pursuit of an extra dollar from your pocket. Out of sight, out of mind and all that.



Knightofalbion said:


> Thanks for alerting us though to all these injustices. Though it might be better to use your obviously considerable energy and free time to raise the issues BEFORE they happen rather than afterwards! That helps no-one.
> And you could try sticking with it...Don't blow hot and cold.


Huh? I don't buy the products that cause thiese issues because I know what issues it causes, isn't that obvious? It's not my decision to buy the products that cause these issues, it is your's and if you aren't aware of the issues that are involved then all I am doing is infomring you of what is involved for your food. Don't try and pass your guilt onto me about what occurs to get you your food as I am not creating the demand, you are so the guilt is on your conscience.



Knightofalbion said:


> Okay, so you kill rabbits and you pat cows then eat their calves and drink the milk nature intended for them. I don't call that very ethical. Why not drink Plamil soya milk and leave the milk for the calves? Why eat veal? That's disgusting. You don't need meat. It isn't essential for life. It isn't even the best source of protein.
> And Mike Tyson for example is a vegan and has been for several years now. He's a changed person. If he can do it, so can you. Nothing is stopping you.


First off, read my other post to Lennythecloud, my choices for where I spend my money is laid out there in regards to the dairy products I buy.
Secondly, I eat more rabbit and pigeon than I do livestock by a large margin becasue there is an abundant supply of it on the outskirts of my village. No trip around the globe for my food chief, just a short walk from the house.
Why don't you drink Plamil products instead of getting your current source from Vietnam? 
What on mother nature's Earth does Mike Tyson's dietary habits have to do with me? Did he turn vegan after being disgusted at the taste of Holyfield's ear? Isn't he also a serial criminal with convictions for assault and battery, rape and drug possession? What a role model he is for your campaign.

What is stopping me is the source of where all of the food to keep me on a vegan diet is coming from and the fact that I currently have a guilt free conscience of where my current diet comes from with no need to change. Why are you always trying to preach to folk about your way of life? After what I have found about the sources of your food there is more chance of me switching to a purely fast food diet than a vegan one. Have I ever told you to give up the vegan diet or move to vegetarian or a meat-based diet? No. I've just informed you of where your food comes from, maybe you don't like it because of the truth behind it depsite you being adamant it was healthy for the environment when it clearly isn't and by a long way.



Knightofalbion said:


> You talk the talk, LOUDLY, try walking the walk.


Can you tell me what "the walk" is you are referring to?

IF it's not detroying the plent through consuming food then let me explain a bit seeming as you think I' all words and seach engines.

I shoot at two stables and two farms that I can walk to easily from my house but due to gun legislation I have to drive there as I can not have a weapon in public even if it is in a carry case. If I shoot rabbits or pigeons then they get eaten with the paunch and cutoff's going to the dogs. Anything else that is edible to the dogs goes to them as well with bits kept back here and there for fly tying for my fly fishing.
In exchange for taken care of pests I either get the shooting rights on the land to take food from it or I get food in the form of livestock raised on the land, eggs from the hens, or veg grown in the greenhouses and veg patches. There is also a large abundance of food available with a bit foraging knowledge that keeps thinsg ticking over nicely.
Along the canal from me is a large area of allotments so I walk the dogs down the canal and buy excess produce from the growers that is in season.
No more than 400yrds from my door is the river Aire. In the last 10-15yrs the water quality has improve vastly due to work that has been carried out (in which I was involved as noted above) but a short drive from my house is the river Wharfe which has naturally occuring wild trout, salmon and grayling. I take the odd one for myself here and there (trout or grayling not salmon) if they are of a decent size, anything else goes back to fight another day. At the bottom of one of the stables is a pond that used to be stocked with rainbows but as it is fed by an eventual tributary of the river Aire it has anturally occuring wild brown stocks, again, I take the odd one here and there.
To get away from it all I sometimes venture into North Yorkshire to a fishery that hasn't stocked farm raised rainbows for about 20yrs. I take the odd one here and there.
If I fancy something different then I organise a group trip to the east coast where we charter a friend's fishing boat and head out to get various sea species with rods, not nets, and only what we need is taken and put in the freezer with some being consumed on a beach BBQ that afternoon.
My folks live a stone's throw from the sea so I go fishing when up there for various stuff and there are some naturally occuring muscle colonies as well as all manner of shelfish on the sand and in the rock pools so I forage for things about up there. My father also has a large poly-tunnel and grows his own stuff which I get packed off back home with.
I buy a large bag of flour online from an organic mill that sources its cereal for milling from the organic farm nextdoor to it so I can make my own bread and pastry etc along with the organic yeast I buy from the same said site.

Is that "the walk" you are referring to?



Knightofalbion said:


> As I said, an area of rainforest the size of France was cut down and lost forever to supply meat for beef burgers! Most farmland in this country was originally beautiful woodland.


I don't eat burgers (haven't for many years), I don't buy burgers and any beef I do buy is in one piece so nothing untoward can be added without me knowing and as stated in Lennythecloud reply it is all sourced where I can see the thing walking about first. Why would I buy imported products when I can get everything I need to survive right on my doorstep or not more than 15miles from my door? How much forest was cut down to make way for your coconut based products in Vietnam? Is Vietnam near Glastonbury? Can you walk there as you don't drive? Last time I checked it wasn't.



Knightofalbion said:


> Spare us the crocodile tears. That's fooling nobody. And get your facts straight. The great majority of soya grown in the world is to provide animal feed for the meat industry.
> *90% of all soya, 80% of all corn and 70% of all grains combined grown in the USA is to provide feed for livestock.
> *If all the grain used for livestock in the USA alone was used to feed people instead of livestock it would provide food enough for 800 MILLION PEOPLE.
> * Only about 6% of global soybean production is used directly as human food - and most of that goes to Asia.
> * About 85% of global soya production is used as animal feed.


I DO NOT BUY MEAT WHERE I CANNOT SEE IT WANDERING ABOUT, THIS INCLUDES THE USA!! How many times. See the lennythecloud bit for animal feed but as far as I am aware no soya based feed is fed to the organic business I buy from. You always bring up the practices in the good ol' US of A? Why? IF you don't like hwo they source stuff and go about things



Knightofalbion said:


> As for water. It takes 15,500 litres of water to produce one kilo of beef. A scandalous waste of precious resources.


How often do I eat beef? What has beef raised livestock stats got to do with dairy vs soya?



Knightofalbion said:


> If you care about the planet, if it isn't all just hot air, put your money where your mouth is, lead by example and follow a plant-based diet.


Stop it with the preaching! I do care about the planet which is why I source locally and don't need vast monoculture deserts. If you buy from the companies that have been researched on your behalf how can you say that the plant-based products are good for the enviroment when I have shown you they clearly aren't? How can creating a demand for a product from Vietnam whilst residing in the UK be good for the environment? Help me out here as I am struggling to tell if you are contradicting yourself proudly or just through blind choice?



Knightofalbion said:


> Lets hear what else you eat so it can be held up to scrutiny. Do you smoke? Do you drive? Where are your clothes from? What are they made of? I think you'll find you'll fall foul of your own moral guidelines or don't they apply to you?


Seriously? Are you that determined to to switch the subject away from the truths that I have pointed out that you are asking me this stuff? Would you like me to find out what my barber eats and if it's poopermarket based stuff should I stop getting my hair cut from there? Come on now, don't be daft. 
I'd happily walk around naked if I wasn't going to be arrested for it. I have always thought that clothes create a barrier in us from either jealousy of designer labels to disgust at the cheaper brands. Clothes don't maketh the man. Are you saying you walk around barefoot in an old hesian sack or that I should?
I must admit, and you'll probably get this straight away, I don't buy clothes anywhere near as often I buy food. There. It's out there for all to see. I wear stuff until it is just barely hanging on then it goes in the "decorating/gardneing/extra layers" drawer, usually after a couple of years. 
I drive. I don't drive everywhere if I can walk or cycle it without too much trouble. I don't drive to work as I get the train and then a bus.



Knightofalbion said:


> You like seeing cows in fields and you want your grandchildren to see cows in fields... When are you emigrating to Canada? Calgary wasn't it or did you say Toronto?
> You won't be able to get raw milk from farms in Canada, it's illegal.


Oh no!!! What will I do?
So you read about that. Was it stated on there my reason for going to Canada? If not here it is. I want to be a renewable enery source engineer for domestic, commercial and industrial facilities. What better way of heloing to save the planet is there than switching energy supplies from fossil based systems to renewable on a supplimentary or sole source, monitoring the effeciency and reporting for development and thus improving the effeciency of the power source?

I hope that little insight to my lifestyle helps you form an educated opinion of me and how my life affects the environment around me as well as the thought that goes into my decisions on where I get my dietary requirements from.

Are you going to divulge the same level of detail or are you going tio hide behind your blinkered view of things and continue causing more death and destruction through your habits and still believe your way is the way everyone should go because if Mike Tyson can do it, anyone can? GO MIKE!!!


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry but one person cutting out dairy and *happening* to be a cancer survivor (and a scientist) does not prove that consuming dairy products is going to kill us all. IGF-1 is something that naturally occurs in humans, and perhaps a high consumption of artificially high dairy products with IGF-1 *could* constitute a risk, but then most things in excess will most likely have unwanted side effects that could also affect our health.
> 
> It's not about having a laugh at anyone else's expense, and it's a fairly rotten thing to post about people ending up with cancer, it's not a laughing matter.


All milk contains IGF-1 and other growth hormones.

You are rather contradicting yourself. Milk is designed to promote rapid growth. It makes cells grow. If those cells are normal cells, great. But what if they're cancer cells? Reference Jane Plant.

Growth factors for laboratory cancer research are generally derived from milk or cheese whey.

The Dairy Indistry today is hugely different to what it was when we were children. Gentle Jerseys peacefully grazing in green meadows....It's nothing like that now.
That's why I put the link, which you said you hadn't bothered to look at, maybe you should then you'd have a different understanding.
Animal Aid: The suffering of farmed cattle

Cows have been cross-bred to massively increase milk yield, add in all the junk pumped into cows.... Super-charged milk.

No, I don't want anyone to end up with cancer. I don't want any human or animal to suffer. Nor the environment. That's why I'm doing all this.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> You are rather contradicting yourself. Milk is designed to promote rapid growth. *It makes cells grow*. If those cells are normal cells, great. But what if they're cancer cells? Reference Jane Plant.


Brilliantly wrong-headed bad science quote of the day. :laugh:

Jane Plant is a geologist who does not understand hypothesis testing, the difference between anecdote and evidence, or how to conduct a scientific study....she holds no authority on the subject.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Hutch6: A bit long all that...I'm not going to quote. 

As for your Lennythecloud post. Yes, but all totally irrelevant if you're moving to Canada.

Mike Tyson, no, you wouldn't have wanted to meet him in a dark alleyway, or anywhere really, but since he became vegan he is a transformed person. He has finally found peace. He has developed a love of pigeons as well believe it or not.
Remind me to post the links I have.

As you say you changed your stance totally about the badger cull. Yes, I saw all that and I respected you for it.
Maybe you'll be changing your mind about all of this too? 
I play the long game.

My coconut milk actually says 'Country of origin:Thailand' They're lying? But Thailand or Vietnam, I'm not sure where you're going with this? Most of the clothes and shoes on sale in the UK today comes from China, Vietnam and the Sub-Continent. Many foods, electricals etc. etc. In fact, what doesn't come from China and the Asian Tiger countries?

As I said all too easy to be simplistic about global trade. The point is not that it is done, but HOW it is done.
If there was no global trade. Economies would collapse, people would be left totally destitute. 

As I said, these things are seldom black and white. I'll give you an example. A while back a newspaper got hold of information that a reputable company (I forget who it was but it doesn't matter) had a manufacturing contract with a company in the Sub-Continent and that company was using girls of 10 - 12 as labour and not paying them much.
Hugely embarrassed the British company said they didn't know and cancelled the contract. The girls all lost their jobs. As their poor families relied in the meagre incomes they brought in they had to find other paid work and the only other paid work they could get was prostitution...
What should have happened is the British company should have ensured the wages paid were fair and a living wage so adults could be employed and not children. And they could have done something about healthcare and schooling for the workers families. And paid for it. 
As it was they paid peanuts because they wanted to maximise their profits AND because people here want cheap clothes! Thoughtlessness and greed. 
Yes, we need to work on green transport/shipping, but trade isn't bad. Trade is good, IF its fair.

So you've finally shown your hand. That's good. 
You can't deny the negative impact the meat industry is having on the environment and precious resources. It is hugely wasteful and destructive, not to mention cruel. 
And don't try and say make it all organic. Their isn't the land for that and it would still use the same resources.

The answer is for man kind to embrace a plant based diet. I hope one day the penny will drop and you and everyone else will see the light. (And in more ways than one)


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Brilliantly wrong-headed bad science quote of the day. :laugh:
> 
> Jane Plant is a geologist who does not understand hypothesis testing, the difference between anecdote and evidence, or how to conduct a scientific study....she holds no authority on the subject.


Jane Plant: www.JanePlant.com

And she is an internationally published author, having written ten books.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> Jane Plant: www.JanePlant.com
> 
> And she is an internationally published author, having written ten books.


You still don't understand, and never will - that doesn't make her an authority on anything. I know a few people who've been published. Shall I ask them for a miracle cure for cancer? That's just silly.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> Hutch6: A bit long all that...I'm not going to quote.
> 
> As for your Lennythecloud post. Yes, but all totally irrelevant if you're moving to Canada.
> 
> ...


I DON'T USE GLOBAL TRADE FOR MY FOOD - YOU DO!!! How many flipping times do I have to spell it out for you. Stop going on about global trade and export and import as I don't buy my food from that resource or are you unable to understand that - my food comes from the direct area around my house be it from a researched farm or off the land so I only support LOCAL businesses with regards to my food, not even businesses int he next city let alone another continent. Even my 6yr old nice can get her head around that. Chuffin Nora!!!

Save yourself the bother with the Mike Tyson links I really couldn't care less if he licks his pigeoons to clean them or anything about him or any other celebrity or vegan or vegetarian advocate as I am more than capable of making my own educated choices.

Cack and fluff!!! I've never hidden my hand!!! But as usual when asked you aren't going to reciprocate, what a surprise. Hide behind your keyboard in your non-harmful make believe world it matter not to how I conduct myself but do yourself a favour and stop prentending to yourself that you are not damaging the planet!! How can you even think that getting a food product shipped over from Vietnam is an ethical choice?

Time after time I have presented you with documented evidence from the manufacturers of the products you buy that they ARE harming the planet and still you create demand for them or move on to some other product that does the same level damage!! Not only that but you have a go at me as if I have nothing better to do. I do have better things to do than have to constantly advise you of the damage your diet is causing to the planet, and to top it all off you come out and say I couldn't give a hoot about the environment!!! 
Hows all of the tetrapak used for your dairy alternative products breaking down int he environment these days? It's only recently that a recycling porcess was introduced but only certain councils use it and i don't the local Glastonbury council has those funds or requirement. Milk bottles get taken back, washed, sanitised and then re-used.

It's is black and white but you are dtermined to convince yourself that black is white and white is black.

So:

What environmental organisations are you a member of? Why? How do you determine where your donation money is spent? What action have you been involved in? Did you ever get involved with shutting down the micro-hydro systems? What happened?

What did you buy the last time you went food shopping? What country of origin were they from? How were they packaged? What happens to that packaging? How did you get there?

What pets do you have? I have asked this twice before and others have as well and I am yet to know the answer.
If you don't have any pets then fine but why are you on a pet forum? What is your agenda? Shouldn't someone who believes all things should be free to roam, coem and go be against keeping animals in a domestic setting as well as an industrial or captive environment?

What fuel does your house run off?

Where do you buy your clothes from? What are they made of?

How long have you been a vegan? I grew up mucking about on an allotment and in an abattoir so I've been connected with sourcing food and where it comes from pretty much from birth.

Why didn't you drink Plamil in the first place if it is so amazing instead of Alpro, Provamel and the other products I've had to hand you an education on? I believe you put it as "Though it might be better to use your obviously considerable energy and free time to raise the issues BEFORE they happen rather than afterwards!That helps no-one.
And you could try sticking with it...Don't blow hot and cold."
Would you like me to research products for you and provide you with a list you can eat without messing up or being a acomplete hypocrite with your ethics then, is that what you are saying?
You are the one swappign products on my findings, I'm not blowing hot and cold you are because you can't source a product that is ethical justified when the facts are presented to you because you are unable to put one and one together hence the catastrophic statement of "I drink ***soandso*** coconut milk, it's imported from Thailand" :yikes: :yikes: WHAT?!?!?!?

Why are you choosing to consume products that cause demand for huge plantations and the destruction of habitat thousands of miles away from your door and then make out as if you know how your choices impact the enviromnment? I can see the difference I make from my bedroom window!!

Why do you talk about "local economies" that aren't local to you? They aren't even on the same continent!!
How do you think the plnatatipon workers are kept? Are they paid well? Are the profits sunk back into local community projects or are they used to buy up more tracts of land to buldoze and destroy? I'll hedge my bets on the answer that you haven't scooby about any of that.

Is your dairy alternative of soya, cocount and other plant milks essential for life?

You say I talk the talk, I would never say you talk the talk and walk the walk because you say one thing and then go and do the complete opposite which just blows my mind when trying to have a debate with you.

Why do you constantly bring up foreign processes and practices when I have stated right from the outset that I don't buy from that industry, only very local industry if I ever do?

How much water does it take to get one of the mono-culture plantaions off the ground, running and ticking over?

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and stop buying products that go against your ethics, are from the other side of the world, pay extremely low wages to the workers no doubt, fund al manner of atrocious activities and ultimately you have no clue as to where that money goes?

I am calling you out onto the same limb of the tree as me on this so I look forward to your answers as I have answered your questions honestly and in complete as I have zero to hide from anyone about anything, I am an open book if you ask me questions about myself. If you don't answer the questions I can only assume you have everything to hide, are full of hot wind, are a wannabe keyboard warrior (not even credited with being a keyboard warrior) and unfortunately you get zero respect in my books and I am sure a few others on here as well.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> I don't buy any dairy products or any alternative dairy products that are under the Dean Foods umbrella.
> I don't use poopermarkets either for my food and I have made my position on this very clear with my previous posts.
> 
> Fortunately the two dairy farms I use are certified organic meaning that everything from the soil on the fields where the grass grows to the feed and the end product must not have been supplimented by a non-organic material. Next time I am down there I shall get a detailed list of products and methods for you.
> ...


Fair enough, tbh your eating more ethically than 99% of the population and i'm not going to call you out on that.

BUT

Farms like the one you've described are a total exception, I've never seen a farm that keeps calves with the cow for a month (how the hell do they milk them?!?). The breed is also completely wrong for what the supermarkets and consumers demand (low butterfat).

You cannot produce even close to the amount of dairy the population demands on that type of system, we're no even self sufficient in dairy as it is. A nice little organic farm is great for you but what about the other 6 billion people on the planet? It's no longer a choice between lovely grass fed organic vs soya - that's just not possible. Its a choice between soya, grain fed intensive dairy vs soya and other plant milks. One has far less impact on the environment than the other and it's not the dairy


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Post99/Hutch6:

That's mature... 

You don't use any global trade for your food? You only buy local? What, you never eat bananas or oranges or grapes etc. etc.? 

Well you may be doing this or that now, I guess we'll take your word for it, but as you're about to run off to Canada, it's irrelevant. 

Anyway, you're still locked into the cycle of destruction that is involved in livestock production.
Livestock production is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than cars, planes and all other forms of transport combined. It's a scandalous waste of precious resources.
And it's unsustainable (see next post)

And you certainly are involved in global trade in every other aspect of your life. 

I live as ethically as possible food wise, as much as is practical to do so and open to my finances. (And in my lifestyle.) 

And the vegan environmental 'footprint' is considerably lower than a meat-eaters's environmental 'footprint'.

It was you who took the discussion 'global'. Huge swathes of the Amazon were being cut down to provide soya for vegans apparently! Though huge swathes of the Amazon were actually mostly being cut down to provide soya for livestock feed. 
Add that to the area of Amazonian rainforest the size of France cut down to provide grazing for beef production.

On the contrary, you would be well advised to take a leaf out of Mike Tyson's book. 

I have a horse, as you asked.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

The IMPACT of livestock production

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/factfiles/wreck.pdf

Water Crisis Will Only Worsen Unless We Start Switching to a Vegan Diet

http://www.unep.org/pdf/UNEP-GEAS_OCT_2012.pdf


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

lennythecloud said:


> Fair enough, tbh your eating more ethically than 99% of the population and i'm not going to call you out on that.
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


Good post.

One thing, the world population is currently SEVEN billion and expected to reach NINE billion by 2050.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wow, some utter twallop posted about people who choose to eat dairy and buy ethically, and meat, and buy ethically. I've yet to come across one soya farm in old blighty, or albion. How very dare we choose to buy produce on our doorstep that fits in with our beliefs, surely we should believe what others want us to believe??!!  

And people wonder why environmental groups and animal rights groups put people off from becoming involved, just reading some of the accusatory posts on this thread has made me cringe. The lack of facts and sheer fanaticism would be laughable, but some people may take the posts seriously!!


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And people wonder why environmental groups and animal rights groups put people off from becoming involved, just reading some of the accusatory posts on this thread has made me cringe. The lack of facts and sheer fanaticism would be laughable, but some people may take the posts seriously!!


The United Nations Environment Programme giving the same warning about the environmental consequences of livestock production.

And with an extra 2 billion people likely to be tapping into the system....


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, some utter twallop posted about people who choose to eat dairy and buy ethically, and meat, and buy ethically. I've yet to come across one soya farm in old blighty, or albion. How very dare we choose to buy produce on our doorstep that fits in with our beliefs, surely we should believe what others want us to believe??!!
> 
> And people wonder why environmental groups and animal rights groups put people off from becoming involved, just reading some of the accusatory posts on this thread has made me cringe. The lack of facts and sheer fanaticism would be laughable, but some people may take the posts seriously!!


I don't know if any of that's aimed at me but if you look back through my posts I don't think I've said anything exaggerated or untruthful.

You still don't seem to get that most soya is fed to livestock and most livestock is on fed soya, your more ethical dairy cow may well be consuming far more soya in a day than your average vegan does in a year. Or is it really just a case of out of sight out of mind?

Soya is increasingly being grown in southern England btw.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> Bad-mouthing again. That's all you ever seem to do.
> 
> I think it is entirely relevant. You aren't a member of any environmental groups. You haven't posted any posts on here concerning environmental issues.
> All you do is scour the Internet seeing what dirt you can dig up on people or companies. What sort of person does that?
> ...


as stated the majority of us stay away from those groups and many others as they are full of nut jobs so blinded to their cause they cant see around them, bit like PETA and their "no kill" policies!



Knightofalbion said:


> Out of the shadows....
> 
> Strange isn't it. They can quote Wikipedia and it's a reliable source. When I play them at their own game suddenly it's an unreliable source.
> 
> ...


My FIL is 72, he has drank 2/3 pints of milk a day since starting HGV driving at 21. Can you explan why he is still completely healthy??


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Starlite said:


> as stated the majority of us stay away from those groups and many others as they are full of nut jobs so blinded to their cause they cant see around them, bit like PETA and their "no kill" policies!
> 
> My FIL is 72, he has drank 2/3 pints of milk a day since starting HGV driving at 21. Can you explan why he is still completely healthy??


Why can someone smoke 50 a day and not have lung cancer? That doesn't mean smoking 50 a day isn't a health risk does it.

Don't tempt Fate! It's an old man's disease by and large.
I have to say I didn't know this, but I checked the MacMillan website. According to them 80% of men in their 80s will have some degree of prostate cancer.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> Why can someone smoke 50 a day and not have lung cancer? That doesn't mean smoking 50 a day isn't a health risk does it.
> 
> Don't tempt Fate! It's an old man's disease by and large.
> I have to say I didn't know this, but I checked the MacMillan website. *According to them 80% of men in their 80s will have some degree of prostate cancer.*


And without any other evidence, you are willing to insinuate (bet) that this is down to their consumption of dairy. Right


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> 2 billion more people. That's 28% more people.
> 
> Assuming continuation at the present rate of consumption, that's:
> 
> ...


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> 2 billion more people. That's 28% more people.
> 
> Assuming continuation at the present rate of consumption, that's:
> 
> ...


All based on assumptions that aren't necessarily factually correct. You're telling me that because I eat animals (and I really don't eat that much on my own) that I'm part of the group that contributes towards rain forest clearance to raise beef, when I don't eat beef burgers, the beef I buy is raised about 5 miles from where I live. But you're not willing to take on board that your lifestyle has a huge carbon footprint to allow you to enjoy soya and other vegan products? laughable!!


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> 'This is one of the most consistent dietary predictors for prostate cancer in the published literature...In these studies, men with the highest dairy intakes had approximately double the risk of total prostate cancer and up to a fourfold increase in risk of metastatic or fatal cancer relative to low consumers' - National Cancer Institute


The National Cancer Institute is an official US Government agency! 19 out of 23 peer related studies ("the published literature") showed a positive association between dairy intake and prostate cancer.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> Why can someone smoke 50 a day and not have lung cancer? That doesn't mean smoking 50 a day isn't a health risk does it.
> 
> Don't tempt Fate! It's an old man's disease by and large.
> I have to say I didn't know this, but I checked the MacMillan website. According to them 80% of men in their 80s will have some degree of prostate cancer.





Knightofalbion said:


> The National Cancer Institute is an official US Government agency! 19 out of 23 peer related studies ("the published literature") showed a positive association between dairy intake and prostate cancer.


Make your mind up, which link are you quoting?


----------



## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> All based on assumptions that aren't necessarily factually correct. You're telling me that because I eat animals (and I really don't eat that much on my own) that I'm part of the group that contributes towards rain forest clearance to raise beef, when I don't eat beef burgers, the beef I buy is raised about 5 miles from where I live. But you're not willing to take on board that your *lifestyle has a huge carbon footprint to allow you to enjoy soya and other vegan products?* laughable!!


 You still don't get it....


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> You still don't get it....


Actually, I think I do, which is possibly more annoying for people who think I should just eat what they believe I should eat :dita:


----------



## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> All based on assumptions that aren't necessarily factually correct. You're telling me that because I eat animals (and I really don't eat that much on my own) that I'm part of the group that contributes towards rain forest clearance to raise beef, when I don't eat beef burgers, the beef I buy is raised about 5 miles from where I live. But you're not willing to take on board that your lifestyle has a huge carbon footprint to allow you to enjoy soya and other vegan products? laughable!!


No-one is holding you personally responsible!

A vegan's carbon footprint is 1/18th of a meat-eaters carbon footprint.

My annual soya intake is minimal. The bulk of my food is of British origin.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Make your mind up, which link are you quoting?


If you actually read what I wrote the gentleman in question is in the danger zone and could be diagnosed with prostate cancer tomorrow. He might already have it for all I know and not know it yet.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> No-one is holding you personally responsible!
> 
> A vegan's carbon footprint is 1/18th of a meat-eaters carbon footprint.
> 
> My annual soya intake is minimal. The bulk of my food is of British origin.


I've never thought I am personally responsible, however, there are plenty of people who seem willing to insinuate I'm more part of the problem than they are. Whether or not their beliefs are based on anything factual.

So how much soya do you consume, because I'm absolutely intrigued as to how you can fly soya for thousands of miles, but I can eat an occasional steak from a cow that never moved more than ten miles in it's life, and I've affected the environment more. It must have had a helluva wind problem to have had such a negative impact.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> Why can someone smoke 50 a day and not have lung cancer? That doesn't mean smoking 50 a day isn't a health risk does it.
> 
> Don't tempt Fate! It's an old man's disease by and large.
> I have to say I didn't know this, but I checked the MacMillan website. According to them 80% of men in their 80s will have some degree of prostate cancer.


And many of those prostate cancers will be harmless to them. What is the point here?



Knightofalbion said:


> No-one is holding you personally responsible!
> 
> A vegan's carbon footprint is 1/18th of a meat-eaters carbon footprint.
> 
> My annual soya intake is minimal. The bulk of my food is of British origin.


Come on then...you demand others account for how they consume, and hutch has given you some considerable detail about how he eats. Show us how Saint Sanctimoniousphallocentrictoadegreethatsuggestsmassiveissueswithwomen lives his pure, doing-no-harm life. Where do your veg come from?

And horse? Show us a picture, what's his/her name? 'Cause it's just not very plausible.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Actually, I think I do, which is possibly more annoying for people who think I should just eat what they believe I should eat :dita:


Personally I don't care what you eat but i'm pretty happy in what I eat and find it quite sad that you need to make out like my way's so ethically unsound just because it doesn't fit with your own world view.

Most livestock are fed an enormous amount of soya and grains, imported from all over the world, and convert it very inefficiently into an end product - yet you repeatedly seem to ignore that little fact when denouncing any plant based food. You have no idea what the meat your eating has been fed or where it's food comes from, I remember pointing out to you along time ago that pig feed often contains soya- you had no idea.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> Personally I don't care what you eat but i'm pretty happy in what I eat and find it quite sad that you need to make out like my way's so ethically unsound just because it doesn't fit with your own world view.
> 
> Most livestock are fed an enormous amount of soya and grains, imported from all over the world, and convert it very inefficiently into an end product - yet you repeatedly seem to ignore that little fact when denouncing any plant based food. You have no idea what the meat your eating has been fed or where it's food comes from, I remember pointing out to you along time ago that pig feed often contains soya- you had no idea.


I nearly spat my wine out, but that would be wasting it!! I've made you feel like you're unethical in what you eat/drink? Have you read the thread?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> Post99/Hutch6:
> 
> That's mature...
> 
> ...


You have a horse, and does your horse consume soya based feed? Does your horse not produce the same greenhouse gases as a cow? Does your horse not require land set aside for turn-out? Do you burden your horse with your weiht for it to carry you about, does you horse like doing this? Does your horse not stand a chance of slotting its leg down a rabbit burrow? Want me to come sort those rabbits out for you, it's free of charge of course?

It matter not anyway as yet again you have managed to try and swing the topic off of yourself and your habits and fill it with your usual churned up stuff and try to point the needle south again.

Do I eat meat and consume dairy to excess? No. 
Could the "in moderation and season" model work for a lot more people you bet you it can. Oh look, I did a post on that long ago, did you read that one too? It's where I talk about maybe changing to a completely foraged diet as I believe there is a reason as to why certain plants ripen or bare fruit at particular times of the year to provide essential nutrients and vitamins. You'd be a mess with that one though so don't try it, you'll only end up eating something poisonous. Best leave it to the people who have been feeding themselves for years and have spent time with the right people to gain knowledge to free and wild growing food. Walking to a shop for food is not foraging but it is more dangerous so be careful out there, you don't know what you might be funding, sorry, around the next corner on those busy lanes.

You can keep Mike Tyson to yourself thanks, you sound about on the same intelligence level.

Unfortunately you have failed to answer the basics of my question and instead have asked me further questions in return. Whatever your agenda is on here then I wish the best of luck but be assured you will come against more informed opposition to your views and the lifestyle you try and promote. Enjoy your peaceful rest in the coming nights when you're asleep as at the other side of the world it will be daytime and whole swathes of animals will be slaughtered, butchered, poisoned, crippled, dismembered, have to face long drawn out suffering deaths just so that sometime in the future you will have a nice and "healthy for you, just you" product to wake up to when you open your fridge. Yum yum yum!!! Cheers.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> No-one is holding you personally responsible!
> 
> A vegan's carbon footprint is 1/18th of a meat-eaters carbon footprint.
> 
> My annual soya intake is minimal. The bulk of my food is of British origin.


What a load of horse pebbles!!! The carbon footprint for your diet is not even lower than mine let alone 1/18th of it so that "fact" is blown out of the water straight away. Where is your evidence as you haven't explained anything that I asked that would fgive an indication of you obtain your food or is it "just-your-word-for-it-pluck-a-number-out-of-thin-air-and-chuck-it-on-the-screen"?

Let's take just one carton of your dairy alternative. We'll start with the end product.

Is your product flown, shipped or driven from Vietnam or Europe?
I am going to assume it was delivered in a refrigerated unit by road from the storage depot.
It was probably driven to the storage depot from the port, airport or railway station it was brought over to from the packaging unit.

Where did the tetrapak material get shipped in to the packaging unit from?
Where did the raw materials to make that tetrapak get shipped to and from so it could be first made up and then printed with such a lovely depicted picture that gives the impression you are helping the planet and using what fuel to extract and form the material?
What about the little pouring spouts that are attached to the carton?
That's just the packaging and already you are clocking up mile upon mile.

I couldn't list the carbon used in the reverse process from pouring the Xml of goodness juice in tot he carton to getting hte fruit off of the plant, to cultivating th eland to be able to plant the plant, to smashing down everything make room to cultivate to gouging out trenches to divert water systems to irrigate the soils and the fertilisers to inject some form of nourishment into the sucked dry soil to ensure you get a crop year after year to the damage those fertilisers cause through runoff back in to the eco systems. 
Oh aye, tiny carbon footprint when compared to sleeping lion or anyone that buys organic milk or even Plamil.

Where does your veg really come from KOA? I reckon it's from a shop, not grown by yourself or anyone you know but from the local store because a vegan diet would be pretty tough and very time consuming if you were to eat what was in season in this country unless of course you foraged to open up the options again, afterall you do live in a Glastonbury postcode so the countryside is a doddle for you to obtain free, wild, organic, non-impact food from (once you get passed the stuff the badgers opposite your house, that you have tamed, have slashed on that is).
If I am right that you buy stuff from a shop because you're fed up kale and carrots and spuds and cabbage and sprouts by about February so you just fancy a sneaky salad, something just a little different, maybe take the edge of your wind, I reckon it comes from here:

*Spain:*


*Ukraine:*


*Holland:*


Do you walk to these growers or ride your horse there?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

lennythecloud said:


> Fair enough, tbh your eating more ethically than 99% of the population and i'm not going to call you out on that.
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


Cheers LTC, I realise they are the exception and not the rule so I am very grateful to be able to find and use not only but two of these upstanding businesses.

They don't milk the nursing cows. If the calf is born without defect then it is given the best possible start as like I noted they are being sold on so need to be in tip-top condition and what better way to ensure that than the mother's milk. Not only that but if you put the calves in pens early it just means more work for the farmer, being a single hand operation (one wife helps out as do I when I can) it is more cost effective timewise, healthwise and at the bottomline the ethical thing to do - these guys love their animals at the end of the day.
The calving times are staggered as best they can be so there are upto ten or so older cows out of the yield whilst the next lot ready for the milking stage are brought on from grazing into the milking herd. The cash for the sold stock makes up for the price drop in the yield and then some in a few cases. There are a number of fourten year old cows in the milking herds at both farms by the way - one is called Butthead as she nudges whilst she walks behind you.

That is the big thing and my biggest gripe when it comes to your average consumer's view on food.

Everything is so cheap, freely available and if you watch a cooking programme you'll see you more prominant names doing dish after dish with meat in it in some form another, sometimes there are two or three meat dishes in the one programme. All this leads to is a devalued view or meat and of dairy because it always available day and night. You go to a meat counter in a poopermarket (you can't call them an in-house butchers) and you see someone that has to look presentable so they have a nice clean apron on, a nice clean hat, a nice clean over coat and all of the meat looks like it's just fallen out of an open wound - it's still warm for goodness sake. It creates this illusion that there is no blood and guts where the butchery or animals is concerned so all is well and you're not really buying the life and well-being of an animal, it's like buying a suppliment from a pharmacist. Go to a butchers where you can see the bloke carrying half a pig in from the chilled van, the butcher is covered in a whole mass of bodily juices from the animals and you know without doubt that something has been killed and you're about to buy it. I think it is one of the contributing factors as to why people choose to buy, eat from a poopermarket than from a butcher's because subconsciously it reasons with them that "you know what, I don't even give a second thought to buying this styro-wrapped pack of lamb chops".

The same goes for milk as far as availability goes so it ups the frequency of consumption as "It doesn't matter, I can always go get some more if needs be at 02:30 in the morning from the local 24ghr garage". WHy should you be able to buy milk from a petrol station or a newsagents and I've even seen it being sold in a garden centre?!?!

If folk started to put a bit of thought into their eating habits and took the time to source it so they were connected with it I think they respect it more, reralise the effort that goes into getting them that item, the effort they had to put in to obtain it and are therefore less likely to waste it or use it on such a frequent basis. If you lived next door to a shop that sold milk you'd consume more than if you have to walk half a mile or drive 15mins. This would reduce demand overnight. The same for meat. If people had to pay more but knew why they had to pay more (better welfare and quality fo life for the animal) I am sure they would only eat meat every third day and not have a bacon sandwhich for breakfast, a ham or chicken sandwich for lunch and a slab of steak for tea.
Give everyone two battery hens to raise. One stays in a tiny box facinf a wall in the kitchen unable to wander about or even look outside. The other goes in their garden where they can watch its personality come out, see its antics, feed it from their hand. Then after a week or two they were then told that for every egg the chicken in the garden laid they had to pay 48p or the chicken would be taken an put in a box jut like the other one. THey could either pay 32p per egg the chicken in the box laid and it would remain in the box OR they could pay 48p per egg and it could be freed from the box to go join its mate in the garden. I know the choice that everyone would make without even a second thought.

Consumer demand has degraded the industries nothing else. If folk took the initiative to obtain their food from other means away from poopermarkets then things would improve drastically, including people's health and well being, no tot mention their relationship with food.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> You have a horse, and does your horse consume soya based feed? Does your horse not produce the same greenhouse gases as a cow? Does your horse not require land set aside for turn-out? Do you burden your horse with your weiht for it to carry you about, does you horse like doing this? Does your horse not stand a chance of slotting its leg down a rabbit burrow? Want me to come sort those rabbits out for you, it's free of charge of course?
> 
> It matter not anyway as yet again you have managed to try and swing the topic off of yourself and your habits and fill it with your usual churned up stuff and try to point the needle south again.
> 
> ...


----------



## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Cheers LTC, I realise they are the exception and not the rule so I am very grateful to be able to find and use not only but two of these upstanding businesses.
> 
> They don't milk the nursing cows. If the calf is born without defect then it is given the best possible start as like I noted they are being sold on so need to be in tip-top condition and what better way to ensure that than the mother's milk. Not only that but if you put the calves in pens early it just means more work for the farmer, being a single hand operation (one wife helps out as do I when I can) it is more cost effective timewise, healthwise and at the bottomline the ethical thing to do - these guys love their animals at the end of the day.
> The calving times are staggered as best they can be so there are upto ten or so older cows out of the yield whilst the next lot ready for the milking stage are brought on from grazing into the milking herd. The cash for the sold stock makes up for the price drop in the yield and then some in a few cases. There are a number of fourten year old cows in the milking herds at both farms by the way - one is called Butthead as she nudges whilst she walks behind you.
> ...


You may have a lower carbon footprint than the average meat eater, for now at least, but as Lenny said. What about everybody else?! 
Talking about organic meat and so forth. In the first place it would still require huge quantities of animal feed. It would still involve using precious resources and energy. It would still add to pollution/slurry/greenhouse gas emissions. It would lead to over-grazing which would leave the soil barren AND the killer, there simply isn't enough land to put that idea into practice anyway, not in this country and certainly not on a global scale.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> All based on assumptions that aren't necessarily factually correct. You're telling me that because I eat animals (and I really don't eat that much on my own) that I'm part of the group that contributes towards rain forest clearance to raise beef, when I don't eat beef burgers, the beef I buy is raised about 5 miles from where I live. But you're not willing to take on board that your lifestyle has a huge carbon footprint to allow you to enjoy soya and other vegan products? laughable!!


I ran out of time last night, but this point is too important to let pass.

37 years ago in 1976 the world population was 4.15 BILLION

Today it is 7 Billion

That's an increase of 2.85 BILLION

Experts predict that in 37 years time in 2050 the world population will be 9 BILLION

That's an increase of 28%.

If however population rises in the 37 years after now at the same rate as it did in the 37 years up to now then world population will be 9.85 BILLION

That's an increase of just over 40%

All these extra people tapping into the livestock industry

That's 28%/40% more animals

28%/40% more land to keep them on

28%/40% more animal feed

28%/40% more fresh water

AND

28%/40% more pollution/slurry

28%/40% more greenhouse gas emissions (Which as I said will totally undermine the green transport/green energy initiatives. Livestock farming already accounts for 18% of all greenhouse gas emissions. Cars, planes and all other forms of transport account for 13%)

AND

28%/40% more animal abuse, exploitation and slaughter

How do you propose these extra demands are going to be met????? Do the maths!

It's madness.

^

On the subject of carbon footprints. It costs considerably more in terms of energy/resources and causes considerably more pollution/greenhouse gas emissions to produce a kilo of animal protein than it does a kilo of plant protein.
And beef is the worst culprit in this respect.

An area of Amazonian rainforest the size of France has been destroyed for beef production.

And it's no good trying to blame soya. As has been mentioned, 85% of global soya production (90% in the USA) is used for animal feed.
They don't fly it out as you said (from South America), they transport it by sea in huge container ships. 
But soya is also grown in Europe and indeed here in the UK - all soya grown here is GM free.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Work out your carbon footprint.

Just a bit of fun, though it has a serious side

Carbon Footprint Ltd - Carbon Footprint Calculator


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Summersky said:


> We use a mix of dairy and Oatly. Can't use soya.
> 
> I use the Oatly "milk" in cooking -sauces, cakes, yorkshire puds, etc. And we like the Oatly "cream" too, although it has disappeared from local supermarket. We have in Lactolite milk too - lots of intolerances in our family.


my mum has this with her cereal, but says it disgusting in tea. she gets it from asda. i dont know if the smaller ones would have it but the medium sized asdas have it and so do the huge walmarts.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Well this seems to have turned into one big us vs them holier than thou slanging match. 

If people choose either way, if they are doing the best they can personally do, from an ethical standpoint, then why the in-fighting?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

grumpy goby said:


> Well this seems to have turned into one big us vs them holier than thou slanging match.
> 
> If people choose either way, if they are doing the best they can personally do, from an ethical standpoint, then why the in-fighting?


Because I refuse to be talked down to by someone who advocvates a diet that is good for the environment, causes less of a carbon footprint than a meat based diet and then has their food shipped over from Vietnam in tetrapak but lives in Glatonbury where I very much doubt they have a tetrapak recycling facility. The same person blows wind here there and everywhere about the damage that's done to the environment by livestock including the feed and greenhouse gases and then owns a horse - similar diet, similar requirements and similar outputs just on a scale of one.

I just can not get my head around it all and yet facts and figures spew out onto the thread without any form of formal research or anything and adamantly forced upon you as fact but if you try and explain a situation from your own point of view it gets cast aside without any recognition of the point you are trying to get across with "well we only have your word for that".

There is a hidden agenda, I know there is and I suspect a few others do as well and it just doesn't sit right with me.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> hutch6 said:
> 
> 
> > You have a horse, and does your horse consume soya based feed? Does your horse not produce the same greenhouse gases as a cow? Does your horse not require land set aside for turn-out? [QUOTE/]
> ...


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Because I refuse to be talked down to by someone who advocvates a diet that is good for the environment, causes less of a carbon footprint than a meat based diet and then has their food shipped over from Vietnam in tetrapak


One item of my diet comes from Thailand in a tin, not Vietnam in a tetrapak. Get your facts straight.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I just can not get my head around it all and yet facts and figures spew out onto the thread without any form of formal research or anything and adamantly forced upon you as fact but if you try and explain a situation from your own point of view it gets cast aside without any recognition of the point you are trying to get across with "well we only have your word for that".
> 
> There is a hidden agenda, I know there is and I suspect a few others do as well and it just doesn't sit right with me.


Do some research, an animal protein based diet uses considerably more energy/resources and creates considerably more pollution/greenhouse gas emissions than a plant protein based diet.

Maybe you would like to explain how *you* would provide for the extra 2 to 2.85 BILLION people who will be tapping into the livestock market in the next 37 years, up to 2050....

If you don't support the shift to a plant based diet; if you don't want a Third World War to reduce world population; explain how *you* would provide the extra land, animal feed, fresh water and energy to provide those extra people with meat and dairy? Lets hear it!

And explain what *you* would do to combat the extra 5% - 7.2% rise in greenhouse gas emissions that additional livestock production would produce? Again, lets hear it.

'WE DO NOT INHERIT THE EARTH FROM OUR ANCESTORS, *WE BORROW IT FROM OUR CHILDREN'*


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> One item of my diet comes from Thailand in a tin, not Vietnam in a tetrapak. Get your facts straight.


:w00t::laugh::laugh:
Oh, you are giving me a laugh on this, thank you!



Knightofalbion said:


> Do some research, an animal protein based diet uses considerably more energy/resources and creates considerably more pollution/greenhouse gas emissions than a plant protein based diet.
> 
> Maybe you would like to explain how *you* would provide for the extra 2 to 2.85 BILLION people who will be tapping into the livestock market in the next 37 years, up to 2050....
> 
> ...


Why should anyone answer any of your questions, when every question that is asked of you is met with more questions, selective "deafness" and point blank refusal to account for yourself in the way that you demand of others?
What makes you think you are above the rest of us? Have you sought help for this messiah complex of yours?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

This thread has proven one thing, it's confirmed to me the reason I won't have anything to do with environmental groups or campaigns and prefer to live by my own standard of ethics, voting with my feet, and purse. 

Thank you to those at the beginning of the thread who actually contributed some positive input, and did (for a few minutes) have me considering trying different products to dairy. I'll perhaps have a look into it in the future, not as an alternative to my door stop pint, but perhaps for baking/cooking etc, as I don't use much milk in any case.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Have to say I am loving almond milk. Have now discovered goes really well with coffee. 

I have cut out dairy products, meat and sweets, chocolate etc....have never felt better...loads more energy and i used to get headaches...not had one!!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> Have to say I am loving almond milk. Have now discovered goes really well with coffee.
> 
> I have cut out dairy products, meat and sweets, chocolate etc....have never felt better...loads more energy and i used to get headaches...not had one!!


Same here Gorgeous! I love almond milk, Ive tried pretty much every alternative but almond is my favourite. If you go on the ecomil fb page theres lots of recipe ideas for almond milk on it

Funny you should mention headaces, looking back I use to suffer quite a lot from them aswell & painful sinuses, i rarely get them anymore...i wonder if it was the dairy causing them all along

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And people wonder why environmental groups and animal rights groups put people off from becoming involved, just reading some of the accusatory posts on this thread has made me cringe. The lack of facts and sheer fanaticism would be laughable, but some people may take the posts seriously!!


Not getting involved in the bickering:yikes: & im not preaching either im far from perfect myself lol, but most farmed animals ARE fed on soya SL & most soya grown goes to feed those farmed animals & that is a Fact. Farms such as the one Hutch mentioned are needles in a giant haystack unfortunately. Farming animals the way we do is unsustainable on this finite planet. If more people consumed less meat & dairy that can only be a good thing, both for the animals and for the whole environment.

Livestock production is one of the biggest threats to our planet, so big that even the UN have spoken out about it...heres a few snippets >>>

*Livestock a major threat to environment
Remedies urgently needed*

According to a new report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, the livestock sector generates more greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalent  18 percent  than transport. It is also a major source of land and water degradation.

Says Henning Steinfeld, Chief of FAOs Livestock Information and Policy Branch and senior author of the report: Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to todays most serious environmental problems. Urgent action is required to remedy the situation.

With increased prosperity, people are consuming more meat and dairy products every year. Global meat production is projected to more than double from 229 million tonnes in 1999/2001 to 465 million tonnes in 2050, while milk output is set to climb from 580 to 1043 million tonnes

The environmental costs per unit of livestock production must be cut by one half, just to avoid the level of damage worsening beyond its present level, it warns.

When emissions from land use and land use change are included, the livestock sector accounts for 9 percent of CO2 deriving from human-related activities, but produces a much larger share of even more harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 percent of human-related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure.

And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia, which contributes significantly to acid rain.

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earths entire land surface, mostly permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation, especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the earths increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles, reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources. Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.

Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all terrestrial animal biomass. Livestocks presence in vast tracts of land and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss; 15 out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline, with livestock identified as a culprit.

Livestock a major threat to environment

As for Environmental Organisations i do know that Greenpeace campaigns, for example, are underpinned by independent scientific research

.

.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Back on track..............

I have milkman milk, but have substituted some of it with almond, cocnut & rice milk nowadays, I'm looking forward to making Yorkshire puddings using oat milk next weekend if my local Tesco stocks it, should be an interesting experiment


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

I found Alpro's latest sustainabilty report for anyone who is interested.
(Note that the soya they use for Alpro is grown mostly in France and none of it now comes from South America)
Alpro | Plant Power | Good for the Planet

Alpro are certainly trying their utmost to be as green as possible and their example is the benchmark for all companies to follow. You have to respect them for that.

I've never understood the logic. An ethical company with impeccable ecological credentials gets taken over by a mother company that happens to own a very unethical company with appalling ecological credentials. 
Therefore boycott the ethical company. And if everyone followed that advice, the ethical company that is good for people, animals and the planet would go out of business. Leaving the unethical business that is bad for people, animals and the planet in place! That makes no sense.
Better to support the ethical company and boycott the unethical company.

I certainly don't want to get involved in any claims they may or may not be true, but look at it this way. If there was something amiss with a company's practices, then it's a case of he who pays the piper...
Consider this, someone complains to the company head office "I object to you doing 'whatever'. I don't buy your product, I've never bought your product and I never will buy your product but I still want you to stop doing 'whatever' "
Another person complains to the company head office "I object to you doing 'whatever'. I buy your product, I've bought your products for years but if you don't stop doing 'whatever' I won't buy your product again."
Now, which one are they going to listen to?...


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> Back on track..............
> 
> I have milkman milk, but have substituted some of it with almond, cocnut & rice milk nowadays, I'm looking forward to making Yorkshire puddings using oat milk next weekend if my local Tesco stocks it, should be an interesting experiment


Good for you!


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Knightofalbion said:


> Consider this, someone complains to the company head office "I object to you doing 'whatever'. I don't buy your product, I've never bought your product and I never will buy your product but I still want you to stop doing 'whatever' "
> 
> Another person complains to the company head office "I object to you doing 'whatever'. I buy your product, I've bought your products for years but if you don't stop doing 'whatever' I won't buy your product again."
> *
> Now, which one are they going to listen to?*...


Probably neither :rolleyes5: But that's just cynical me


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Not getting involved in the bickering:yikes: & im not preaching either im far from perfect myself lol, but most farmed animals ARE fed on soya SL & most soya grown goes to feed those farmed animals & that is a Fact. Farms such as the one Hutch mentioned are needles in a giant haystack unfortunately. Farming animals the way we do is unsustainable on this finite planet. If more people consumed less meat & dairy that can only be a good thing, both for the animals and for the whole environment.
> 
> Livestock production is one of the biggest threats to our planet, so big that even the UN have spoken out about it...heres a few snippets >>>
> 
> ...


Noushka, you're on fire! Great post.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Just out of curiosity, if you have vit D deficiency (I do), do any of the Dairy substitutes account for the lower levels in calcium?

I dont think I could switch, as I expect it would be more expensive (We shop on a very tight budget) and I don't want to have to start taking more vit D supplements to make up for a dietry deficiencies..


I think we do OK, we dont eat meat or dairy to excess at all, in fact we dont eat any meat at all Monday to Friday, and the meat we do eat (Mainly for the sunday roast) is from a local butchers so we know exactly where it is from. I do drink Milk, and we do eat cheese, however we don't have a local milkman so it comes from the local shop and I confess I have no idea where it comes from.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Toby Tyler said:


> Probably neither :rolleyes5: But that's just cynical me


Yes, but all businesses are in business to make money. Money talks.

Wheter they be sincere or just jumping on the green bandwagon, we need companies of all persuasions to be more environmentally friendly, more ethical and more compassionate. 
It's such a mindset that the whole world needs, or what hope is there?


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## Supasilvfoxy (Apr 6, 2013)

I'm a diary girl myself, fresh from the cow, which grazes in the fields near me. Seventy-two years old and a pint of the good stuff lasts me a couple of days. I use it on my cereal in my tea/coffee and always have half a cup of warm milk before I go to bed with a couple of Gingernuts, I have been doing the above since I was a girl, my mum and dad drank cow's milk as well. Neither of them got cancer and as I fed my daughter on cow's milk since I she was weaned, she still happily drinks it in her tea, cereals and bakes with it, hopefully she wont get cancer either.

I really don't listen to 'scare' stories about anything - "Take it all with a pinch of salt" me old mum used to say. 

I have never tried Soya milk as I don't like my food beng mucked about with, which puts me off. I only use butter also sourced locally, I hate the fact that margarine contains additives and E numbers. 

As yet and fingers crossed I have not had cancer in any form


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Just out of curiosity, if you have vit D deficiency (I do), do any of the Dairy substitutes account for the lower levels in calcium?
> 
> I dont think I could switch, as I expect it would be more expensive (We shop on a very tight budget) and I don't want to have to start taking more vit D supplements to make up for a dietry deficiencies..
> 
> I think we do OK, we dont eat meat or dairy to excess at all, in fact we dont eat any meat at all Monday to Friday, and the meat we do eat (Mainly for the sunday roast) is from a local butchers so we know exactly where it is from. I do drink Milk, and we do eat cheese, however we don't have a local milkman so it comes from the local shop and I confess I have no idea where it comes from.


It's hard to give a definitive answer to that, but most plant milks are fortified with vitamins D and B-12, and some with calcium as well. It depends on the brand you buy.

You have a diagnosed vitamin D deficiency? Sunshine is the best source of natural vitamin D of course, but to correct a diagnosed vitamin D deficiency - again it depends how severe it is of course - it would take more than milk of either persuasion. You really are looking at a supplement. 
Vitamin D is vital for the proper functioning of the immune system. Hardly a week goes by without vitamin D being shown to prevent or treat this or that ailment.
A one a day supplement needn't be expensive. We're talking pennies and it is a good investment in terms of maintaining health.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> It's hard to give a definitive answer to that, but most plant milks are fortified with vitamins D and B-12, and some with calcium as well. It depends on the brand you buy.
> 
> You have a diagnosed vitamin D deficiency? Sunshine is the best source of natural vitamin D of course, but to correct a diagnosed vitamin D deficiency - again it depends how severe it is of course - it would take more than milk of either persuasion. You really are looking at a supplement.
> Vitamin D is vital for the proper functioning of the immune system. Hardly a week goes by without vitamin D being shown to prevent or treat this or that ailment.
> A one a day supplement needn't be expensive. We're talking pennies and it is a good investment in terms of maintaining health.


I already take supplements for vit D as my body doesnt seem to process it properly. Yes its been diagnosed as they were trying to establish why I break my metatarsals regularly. But because I already have to take supplements, I spend alot of time outside considering I work fulltime - so I would prefer to get it in food form where possible.

I could never go full on vege as I need the eggs/oily fish for my own situation, but I do what I can. Milk is one thing I considered as its not a huge supply of Vit D, but obv does have calcium which the Dr recommends I keep up.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> Do some research, an animal protein based diet uses considerably more energy/resources and creates considerably more pollution/greenhouse gas emissions than a plant protein based diet.
> 
> Maybe you would like to explain how *you* would provide for the extra 2 to 2.85 BILLION people who will be tapping into the livestock market in the next 37 years, up to 2050....
> 
> ...


I believe I have already ask you to provide the facts and figures that show the difference that would be made if everyone switched over to a vegan diet. I have also asked re-asked you a few questions which, again, you have not answered, again.



hutch6 said:


> *What if everyone suddenly converted to a vegan diet, can you put those figures together as it would be interesting to compare the outcomes?*
> 
> How about just answering a few simple questions then, I've asked them before:
> 
> You have a horse, and does your horse consume soya based feed? Does your horse not produce the same greenhouse gases as a cow? Does your horse not require land set aside for turn-out?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> I believe I have already ask you to provide the facts and figures that show the difference that would be made if everyone switched over to a vegan diet. I have also asked re-asked you a few questions which, again, you have not answered, again.


If everyone switched to vegan diet we would be able to feed the world.

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> Noushka, you're on fire! Great post.


I have my moments haha


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Where are the facts and figures to back up this then? What impact would it have on the world? Would we need further plantations or greenhouses? 

I might be naive in my thinking here but I believe if everyone did something to take the strain then things would be a whole lot better. Window boxes of veg, hanging baskets of cherry toms, community gardens instead of stretches of grass and a bench, a couple of hens in the back garden, a few bunnies from the local park or fields, woodies - there's millions of them, the rest can be consumed in moderation and supplemented by what you source yourself. Chuck all of the stored water in bottles and drinks back into the sea and let's dilute the world again. Less salinity = lower freezing temp of ice = more ice at the ice caps = more heat from the sun reflected away = cooler planet again (if global warming exists that is).


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

If everyone suddenly decided to become vegan what happens to all the animals on the earth at this moment?

All the humans suddenly need the soya as they are all vegan, what do the animals get fed on?

We cant keep them in fields because the humans need the fields to grow their own food now they are all vegan.

We probably will need _more_ land to farm if we are all vegan, so that means destroying more habitat for other animals.

What exactly happens to all the animals, the ones bred for food, the ones bred for dairy, and the ones losing their natural homes due to us needing more farmland?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Where are the facts and figures to back up this then? What impact would it have on the world? Would we need further plantations or greenhouses?
> 
> I might be naive in my thinking here but I believe if everyone did something to take the strain then things would be a whole lot better. Window boxes of veg, hanging baskets of cherry toms, community gardens instead of stretches of grass and a bench, a couple of hens in the back garden, a few bunnies from the local park or fields, woodies - there's millions of them, the rest can be consumed in moderation and supplemented by what you source yourself. Chuck all of the stored water in bottles and drinks back into the sea and let's dilute the world again. Less salinity = lower freezing temp of ice = more ice at the ice caps = more heat from the sun reflected away = cooler planet again (if global warming exists that is).


This is the UN report i posted earlier >>Livestock a major threat to environment

This > Food shortages could force world into vegetarianism, warn scientists | Global development | The Guardian

I totally agree we should all try to do our bit.

Putting aside how i feel about the actual farm animals for a moment & focusing on dreadfully wasteful & stupid farming practices. Who on earth thought feeding meat to cows was a good idea? Now pigs being omniverous would eat some meat as part of their natural diet & pigs use to be fed swill, they converted this waste food very well. Not anymore, since the bse scare swill is now dumped & pigs are fed on grains, not sure of the precise figures but it takes a lot of grain to produce 1lb of flesh..Is there any common sense? Its unsustainable to go on farming livestock the way we are...there is no need to feed grains to pigs, going back to feeding swill would save precious resources...course I'd much prefer no pigs were farmed, but thats never gunna happen.



MCWillow said:


> If everyone suddenly decided to become vegan what happens to all the animals on the earth at this moment?
> 
> All the humans suddenly need the soya as they are all vegan, what do the animals get fed on?
> 
> ...


I dont think its very likely that everyone will suddenly decide to switch to a vegan diet. If it happened over time less animals would be bred as the demand for meat/dairy waned.

Im vegetarian, i dont drink milk or eat cheese but im not a vegan...i eat eggs. I rarely eat anything containing soya, i havent bought tofu for months. There are loads of other things i can eat to have a healthy diet. Feeding livestock uses far more soya and grains then feeding humans does, we could feed the world if we didnt have to feed livestock.

If people began to switch to a plant based diet the demand for livestock would diminish, less animals would need to be bred and their population would gradually go down. Good news all round .>> less animals suffering, better for the environment.

Eat Less Meat


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Where are the facts and figures to back up this then? What impact would it have on the world? Would we need further plantations or greenhouses?
> 
> I might be naive in my thinking here but I believe if everyone did something to take the strain then things would be a whole lot better. Window boxes of veg, hanging baskets of cherry toms, community gardens instead of stretches of grass and a bench, a couple of hens in the back garden, a few bunnies from the local park or fields, woodies - there's millions of them, the rest can be consumed in moderation and supplemented by what you source yourself. Chuck all of the stored water in bottles and drinks back into the sea and let's dilute the world again. Less salinity = lower freezing temp of ice = more ice at the ice caps = more heat from the sun reflected away = cooler planet again (if global warming exists that is).


:yikes: Youre not a climate change sceptic are you Hutch?

Just watch brilliant George Monbiot humiliate David Bellamy over it lol

[youtube_browser]/3eOFYAg_DPw[/youtube_browser]


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I believe I have already ask you to provide the facts and figures that show the difference that would be made if everyone switched over to a vegan diet. I have also asked re-asked you a few questions which, again, you have not answered, again.


I believe I have already told you that in America alone if all the grain currently used to feed livestock was used to feed people instead it would feed provide food enough for 800 MILLION PEOPLE. 
On a global scale we could comfortably feed the people of the world on a plant-based diet.
This is a good article
Land - The Vegan Society

What are the chances of the whole world turning vegan overnight? Obviously it won't happen overnight. It will be a gradual change, but an inevitable change. Because the present livestock industry is simply not sustainable. Between now and then I fear for wildlife and I fear the natural world not already destroyed or polluted by the livestock industry.

As for the other points. Re the Google Earth pictures. I didn't get what you were getting at at the time. Greengrocers and supermarkets state the country of origin of the produce. British produce is clearly labelled as such. And there's always plenty of it. So, do I buy veg from the Ukraine? No. Spain? No. Holland? No. 
That sort of stuff isn't what I call real food anyway. It's off colour, hard and forced food lacks flavour.

Does my horse eat soya of any descript. Some, but GM free and it's not from South America if that's what you're driving at.
How much greenhouse gas does my horse produce in a year? Not sure how you'd expect me to measure it?! Not as much as your car I suspect.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> Do some research, an animal protein based diet uses considerably more energy/resources and creates considerably more pollution/greenhouse gas emissions than a plant protein based diet.
> 
> Maybe you would like to explain how *you* would provide for the extra 2 to 2.85 BILLION people who will be tapping into the livestock market in the next 37 years, up to 2050....
> 
> ...


Hutch6: Like I said, tone can be misconstrued, don't think I'm rocketing you. I'm not. But it's going to take a bit more than a couple of chickens (still livestock and associated problems) and a few tomatoes on the windowsill and the odd rabbit (they'd soon be wiped out) to fix all this.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Definitely put off any soya or vegan products from this thread from the response of a few.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Definitely put off any soya or vegan products from this thread from the response of a few.


what about oatie milk. my mum uses it for her cereal, says its really nice. 
was veggie for a few years, and the quorn or shops own veggie stuff is quite nice. but i couldnt go vegan.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

CRL said:


> what about oatie milk. my mum uses it for her cereal, says its really nice.
> was veggie for a few years, and the quorn or shops own veggie stuff is quite nice. but i couldnt go vegan.


I may try something like that for baking, but the attitude of a few on here has put me off asking about alternatives tbh.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> Hutch6: Like I said, tone can be misconstrued, don't think I'm rocketing you. I'm not. But it's going to take a bit more than a couple of chickens (still livestock and associated problems) and a few tomatoes on the windowsill and the odd rabbit (they'd soon be wiped out) to fix all this.


Do you only read half of my posts? I try to make them entertaining as well as dishing the filth on large corporates. Re-read the post you're referring to and note the word "supplemented".

What's wrong with a few hens bopping about the joint? They clear your veg patch of pests (and your veg if you're not vigilant) and you get eggs from them which is THE simplest and most digestible form of protein, free of charge - free range, organic and they are quite entertaining.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> I believe I have already told you that in America alone if all the grain currently used to feed livestock was used to feed people instead it would feed provide food enough for 800 MILLION PEOPLE.
> On a global scale we could comfortably feed the people of the world on a plant-based diet.
> This is a good article
> Land - The Vegan Society
> ...


That's only 800million. A few pages back you were on about feeding 9billion. I'll read the article in a bit but does that explain where 9billion people's worth of food will come from without any further damage?

So you don't buy salad all year round then? Good for you.

Your horse eats soya but it's definitely not GM soya and it farts just like a cow does. The hypocrisy astounds me. Do you research what your horse eats more than yourself? Seems strange to me.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Do you only read half of my posts? I try to make them entertaining as well as dishing the filth on large corporates. Re-read the post you're referring to and note the word "supplemented".
> 
> What's wrong with a few hens bopping about the joint? They clear your veg patch of pests (and your veg if you're not vigilant) and you get eggs from them which is THE simplest and most digestible form of protein, free of charge - free range, organic and they are quite entertaining.


Most companies are owned by 10 super hardly whiter than white mother companies and everyone is in hock to the morally corrupt banks. The whole system needs to change. A whole new corporate mindset is needed. Like the one Alpro are striving for for example!

A couple of chickens in everyone's back garden...On the scale of billions... They still generate greenhouse gas and pollution. They need feeding grain, which has to be fetched or delivered. What about salmonella and bacterial infections? Not to mention rats? And what would happen to the countless billions of male chicks this idea would throw up? What would happen is what happens now, they're gassed or thrown live into mincing machines. In America and elsewhere they can be simply trashed, thrown in a trash can.
It would just replace one problem with another. It would create a microcosm of what we have already.

A random link
"Free-Range" Poultry and Eggs: Not All They're Cracked Up To Be - United Poultry Concerns


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> That's only 800million. A few pages back you were on about feeding 9billion. I'll read the article in a bit but does that explain where 9billion people's worth of food will come from without any further damage?
> 
> So you don't buy salad all year round then? Good for you.
> 
> Your horse eats soya but it's definitely not GM soya and it farts just like a cow does. The hypocrisy astounds me. Do you research what your horse eats more than yourself? Seems strange to me.


That's only in America. That's only the feed. As it says in the link if all the global land currently used for livestock production in all its forms (78% of all agricultural land) was used for growing plant food for humans we could comfortably feed the whole world population, present and to the projected increase level. 
This on the farm land we have already. So no more cutting down rainforest.

And with 18% of greenhouse gas currently generated by livestock production. An extra 28%/40% to add it 'we' continue as we are....A switch would make a HUGE difference. You are interested in green energy you said, what's not to like? (13% of greenhouse gas emissions are generated by cars, planes and all other forms of transport...Lets put all this in perspective.)

A handful of GM free soya grown in this country differs how from a handful of GM free wheat grown in this country for your bit of bread?

He has as much right to be here as you. He is a lot more harmless and generates less pollution than you.
And hypocrisy? Well, he at least doesn't associate with badger baiters, eat veal, shoot, fish, course and trap and then lecture on ethics on an animal lover's forum.
And he doesn't drive twice a month to an environmentally damaging commercial chicken processing plant in North Yorkshire either, but that's another story.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

I think maybe people would be more open to the idea if they werent constantly put on the defensive by people telling them they cannot possibly be doing enough unless they go full vegan.

Veganism isnt for everyone, and I think if you make the educated choice to still eat meat and dairy, then if it is done in the most ethically sound way possible, within their capabilities, so it supports the local community etc, they should at least recieve some credit for doing the research and doing what they believe to be right... It rubs people up the wrong way, and wont make them think "Actually Maybe I will try Soya Milk instead"

Personally, if someone comes over strong, links alot of highly emotive and biased websites to support their claim, I am likely to ignore it and carry on as I were. If I am given objective facts, cut the crap and the propaganda - JUST FACTS, so i can look at it and judge for myself, the chances are I will make a change. Long story short.... the back end of this thread hasnt made me want to change


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> Most companies are owned by 10 super hardly whiter than white mother companies and everyone is in hock to the morally corrupt banks. The whole system needs to change. A whole new corporate mindset is needed. Like the one Alpro are striving for for example!
> 
> A couple of chickens in everyone's back garden...On the scale of billions... They still generate greenhouse gas and pollution. They need feeding grain, which has to be fetched or delivered. What about salmonella and bacterial infections? Not to mention rats? And what would happen to the countless billions of male chicks this idea would throw up? What would happen is what happens now, they're gassed or thrown live into mincing machines. In America and elsewhere they can be simply trashed, thrown in a trash can.
> It would just replace one problem with another. It would create a microcosm of what we have already.
> ...


The link you provide does not reflect the farming practices I'm familiar with - certainly doesn't look like my neighbours' farms where the chickens and other fowl wander the fields.....doesn't look much like my back garden, where my chickens are currently sunbathing.

Good hygiene takes care of infections, and my cats ensure there is no rat problem.

They turn my compost over and add to it, assisting with recycling as well as eliminating for packaged, transported compost...their feed is UK grown according to the supplier and comes in bags which are recyclable...they provide organic, pesticide-free pest control...they are the livestock with the smallest carbon footprint. My chickens are reducing the amount of waste I produce and turning it into something valuable to assist with growing my own veg - again, without recourse to manufactured fertilisers.

Yet while you buy goods from the other side of the world, you see back garden chickens as destroying the planet?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

myshkin said:


> The link you provide does not reflect the farming practices I'm familiar with - certainly doesn't look like my neighbours' farms where the chickens and other fowl wander the fields.....doesn't look much like my back garden, where my chickens are currently sunbathing.
> 
> Good hygiene takes care of infections, and my cats ensure there is no rat problem.
> 
> ...


You MONSTER!

I better go sharpen the pitchforks!


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> You MONSTER!
> 
> I better go sharpen the pitchforks!


:laugh:

Going back to your post about making educated choices, supporting local suppliers etc. - some of us clearly try hard to buy locally and support ethical methods, in the recognition that modern life is quite damaging to the planet, we want to do our bit to reduce that damage in real ways.
It gets pretty grating to be lectured at by some who come across as terrified of getting a bit of muck under their fingernails!


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Exactly. I buy all my meat and veg from local suppliers. I havemt found a source for my dairy yet, and I need to do more research on my beans, lentils and vegetarian sources which I am sure are coming with a large cabin footprint ; but seeing as I don't want to eat excess meat my protein needs to come from somewhere... But at least I reognise this failing on my own shopping and can work towards a better source..

I feel that considering I live in a town with NO local grocers, butchers or ethical retailers that I am doing ok... I have to cycle 40mins to do our meat and veg shop!! And that means a very heavy cycle home! So why shouldn't I feel as good about what I am doing as someone who doesnt eat meat at all.

I actually think my meat and veg has a smaller footprint than the lentils and beans and spices I buy which I expect comes from abroad...


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Eta when I have a garden, rather than my flats concrete paradise, I would love to have a veg patch and some chooks!!!


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

First time I have heard the argument that keeping backyard chooks is something to be ashamed of...


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

grumpy goby said:


> Eta when I have a garden, rather than my flats concrete paradise, I would love to have a veg patch and some chooks!!!


Once you do it, you'll never go back 
They are fascinating to watch, with their individual personalities, and the taste of an egg layed the same day is something else!


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

myshkin said:


> Once you do it, you'll never go back
> They are fascinating to watch, with their individual personalities, and the taste of an egg layed the same day is something else!


I know!! My friends sister is a vet and serial rescuer, and she has about 10 chooks that were ex-battery hens - they all have suitably "old lady" names, and are great fun to watch!

She is very lucky that her 5 dogs and 4 cats seem so used to an array of animals passing through her doors in foster form that they pretty much ignore them! (She is obviously destroying the planet...)


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> First time I have heard the argument that keeping backyard chooks is something to be ashamed of...


well my parents are very bad people indeed according to this thread. they have 4 chickens that have a huge inclosure and then they have free reign of the garden for 3 hours or more each day :eek6: they are also vegetarian, but god forbid they didnt choose to be vegan :eek6::eek6: they eat cheese and drink milk :eek6: they shop in asda as thats all they can afford :eek6:
my parents are going to hell, if they believed in it


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> I think maybe people would be more open to the idea if they werent constantly put on the defensive by people telling them they cannot possibly be doing enough unless they go full vegan.
> 
> Veganism isnt for everyone, and I think if you make the educated choice to still eat meat and dairy, then if it is done in the most ethically sound way possible, within their capabilities, so it supports the local community etc, they should at least recieve some credit for doing the research and doing what they believe to be right... It rubs people up the wrong way, and wont make them think "Actually Maybe I will try Soya Milk instead"
> 
> Personally, if someone comes over strong, links alot of highly emotive and biased websites to support their claim, I am likely to ignore it and carry on as I were. If I am given objective facts, cut the crap and the propaganda - JUST FACTS, so i can look at it and judge for myself, the chances are I will make a change. Long story short.... the back end of this thread hasnt made me want to change


And if someone tries to bulldozer approach I'm not going to counter?

It's about raising awareness and people facing up to their responsibilities to their fellow human beings and the other living things they share the planet with.
Yes, everyone needs to do their bit. 'Their bit' will differ from person to person for a variety of reasons, but lets start with a bit. 
We have to start somewhere and take it from there.

Long story short...mankind HAS to change.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

koekemakranka said:


> First time I have heard the argument that keeping backyard chooks is something to be ashamed of...


That was what was said? He was suggesting keeping chickens on a global scale that would run to the multiple billions and all that that entails, that's when the wheels come off the theory.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> And if someone tries to bulldozer approach I'm not going to counter?
> 
> It's about raising awareness and people facing up to their responsibilities to their fellow human beings and the other living things they share the planet with.
> Yes, everyone needs to do their bit. 'Their bit' will differ from person to person for a variety of reasons, but lets start with a bit.
> ...


oh yes lets all be vegans! but oh wait. what about all the animals raised for food? the millions of cows, pigs, chickens and lambs? what will happen to them? because they wouldnt all get a nice home with a vegan would they? they would be slaughtered on a massive scale. defeating the object of being vegan.

when people post thread like this most of the comments dont even get read, all people see is links to biased sites, and a load of biased writing by the poster trying to bore people into seeing their view of things, and it gets ignored. maybe try a little less 'you must do this and this or you are a very bad person' because all im reading is 'blah blah blah blah very naughty blah blah blah'.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> And if someone tries to bulldozer approach I'm not going to counter?
> 
> It's about raising awareness and people facing up to their responsibilities to their fellow human beings and the other living things they share the planet with.
> Yes, everyone needs to do their bit. 'Their bit' will differ from person to person for a variety of reasons, but lets start with a bit.
> ...


To be fair you only seem to DO bulldozer effect  Im just suggesting that maybe a slightly different approach will get people to pay more attention. The approach you take now (which is very much ALL or nothing) just puts people, like myself, off.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> That was what was said? He was suggesting keeping chickens on a global scale that would run to the multiple billions and all that that entails, that's when the wheels come off the theory.


This is just rubbish, tbh.
For supermarkets to keep their shelves stocked the way they do involves an enormous amount of waste, those that aren't sold are thrown away.
No eggs are wasted from my chickens - if I find myself with more than I want to eat in summer, I make ice-cream, give some away, or give the dogs a treat. Each individual who keeps chickens is saving resources, in a multitude of ways.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

CRL said:


> when people post thread like this most of the comments dont even get read, all people see is links to biased sites, and a load of biased writing by the poster trying to bore people into seeing their view of things, and it gets ignored. maybe try a little less 'you must do this and this or you are a very bad person' because all im reading is 'blah blah blah blah very naughty blah blah blah'.


Agree totally. I dont pay ANY heed to heavily biased sites... I want cold hard facts and studies from respectable sources. That is what I listen to.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Agree totally. I dont pay ANY heed to heavily biased sites... I want cold hard facts and studies from respectable sources. That is what I listen to.


it also dosent help that being dyslexic all the big words they use to describe something mean nothing to me, the way it written confuses me, the statistics used means little aswell. so basically i read the first line and the rest just blanks my mind, and i go onto the next post. posters time is wasted and they are not teaching many people anything. or i just see the biased links and dont bother reading the first line


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

CRL said:


> *it also dosent help that being dyslexic all the big words they use to describe something mean nothing to me*, the way it written confuses me, the statistics used means little aswell. so basically i read the first line and the rest just blanks my mind, and i go onto the next post. posters time is wasted and they are not teaching many people anything. or i just see the biased links and dont bother reading the first line


To be fair, if from a highly biased site, alot of the language used is usually highly emotive or trying to sound more scientific than it really is.... What can be said in 2 lines takes 3 pages.

As we say at work... "Bullsh*t Baffles Brains" - So your not missing much by not reading past the first few lines


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Although I have to point out that the Standard Bovine Excretory Co-Efficient Detector (TM) is a thoroughly useful diagnostic and analytical tool that effectively - both quantitively and qualitively - adumbrates previously incognitive and nebulous academic canticles. Here is a useful link:

www.uselessinformationnobodyunderstandsbutprobablyhassomethingtodo withGMcrops.ac.uppermongolia.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> Although I have to point out that the Standard Bovine Excretory Co-Efficient Detector (TM) is a thoroughly useful diagnostic and analytical tool that effectively - both quantitively and qualitively - adumbrates previously incognitive and nebulous academic canticles. Here is a useful link:
> 
> www.uselessinformationnobodyunderstandsbutprobablyhassomethingtodo withGMcrops.ac.uppermongolia.


I tried to click on the link...reflex reaction, wasn't fooled, honest!
:laugh:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Definitely put off any soya or vegan products from this thread from the response of a few.





Sleeping_Lion said:


> I may try something like that for baking, but the attitude of a few on here has put me off asking about alternatives tbh.


Well I presume this is aimed at me?

It was only after noticing your post on environmental organisations that prompted me to post again. I only intended to post my preference to almond milk until I saw that lol.

.

.

.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

did we ever establish if there was a good alternative to milk for tea??

#teamonster

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Sorry it's a long one again KOA but you brought up loads of stuff and I've tried to answer them all.



Knightofalbion said:


> Most companies are owned by 10 super hardly whiter than white mother companies and everyone is in hock to the morally corrupt banks. The whole system needs to change.


Then change it! Stop buying products that belong to large "super mother companies" then and buy local as I have stipulated right throughout this. You still don't get it!! I cant change it because I dont do it in the first place so if you are trying to start a revolution Ive already thrown the first punch in the direction you are trying to push in. I am way ahead of you, I just eat meat.



Knightofalbion said:


> A whole new corporate mindset is needed. Like the one Alpro are striving for for example!


And the way to do that is stop giving them your money and give it to a company who is transparent from start to finish as I keep saying. Talk about banging your head against a wall.

Is it easier to get more people to swap from a minority product that is owned by a "super mother company" or is it easier for that small population to stop buying that and change to a more ethical company and make it clear that if they ever sold out to a larger company you would all stop buying the product again? You are a collective, work together to make your products better. I can't as I don't agree with soya production or intensive dairy farming. I already voted with my wallet.



Knightofalbion said:


> A couple of chickens in everyone's back garden...On the scale of billions... They still generate greenhouse gas and pollution. They need feeding grain, which has to be fetched or delivered.


So does your horse and on a much larger scale than a few chickens plodding about the garden and without the added benefit of an end product or the by-products. At least with chickens you get something out of them. 
The grain in minimal. My folks feed theirs on table scraps, veg rom the garden and my dad takes them of foraging safaris around the garden lifting flower tubs, turning the soil and they get the grass cuttings as well as the grass in their enclosure, plus any rats and mice that come their way. They eat very little grain to be honest. I reckon my dad buys in a 5kg bag every 6-8month just to help them through winter a bit and that will support 8 chickens.



Knightofalbion said:


> What about salmonella and bacterial infections?


What about it? There are vaccines available and when the adult bird is vaccinated any eggs laid by that individual carry antibodies with it to decrease the chances of an outbreak. The rest is just common sense chicken keeping.



Knightofalbion said:


> Not to mention rats?


Doesn't everything have its place in the world? I think it was you that said this earlier in the thread.

Again, a bit of planning, common sense and good husbandry prevents mice and rats (I know I said my parents had them in the barn but they have been since they moved in and we have never seen any disturbance around the feed areas as they are kept clean and are installed with the restriction of rats in mind. The rats and mice come in from the fields that surround the property).



Knightofalbion said:


> And what would happen to the countless billions of male chicks this idea would throw up?


Well what you do is you take the males and place them in a separate holding area where they are raised for eating rather than laying, it's what we've done for years. Separate them, fatten them up over time rather than in in a short period and then neck them for the freezer or table.



Knightofalbion said:


> What would happen is what happens now, they're gassed or thrown live into mincing machines. In America and elsewhere they can be simply trashed, thrown in a trash can.
> It would just replace one problem with another. It would create a microcosm of what we have already.
> 
> A random link
> "Free-Range" Poultry and Eggs: Not All They're Cracked Up To Be - United Poultry Concerns


That is for the egg laying and broiler arena and YET AGAIN it's all taken from a foreign practice on an intensive scale. What is it with you and seeing the way the American's produce something and think that all of our farmers do the same and their practices and principle apply to us? I DO NOT GIVE MY MONEY TO ANY AMERICAN FARMING INDUSTRY AT ALL.

Even the "random link" is all sourced from American farms and practices.



Knightofalbion said:


> That's only in America. That's only the feed. As it says in the link if all the global land currently used for livestock production in all its forms (78% of all agricultural land) was used for growing plant food for humans we could comfortably feed the whole world population, present and to the projected increase level.
> This on the farm land we have already. So no more cutting down rainforest.
> 
> And with 18% of greenhouse gas currently generated by livestock production. An extra 28%/40% to add it 'we' continue as we are....A switch would make a HUGE difference. You are interested in green energy you said, what's not to like? (13% of greenhouse gas emissions are generated by cars, planes and all other forms of transport...Lets put all this in perspective.)


Why am I not surprised it was to do with America?
So what effect on wildlife would the creation of these monoculture deserts cause?
At the moment you can have livestock in a field and in that field you have a billion other forms of life from species that occupy the soil, the stuff that lives off of the pasture plant life and the droppings of the livestock and the surrounding hedgerows. If you put crops in those fields you lose, I would estimate, about 95% of all life in that field. Pesticides, herbicides and insecticides will clear out the field and then anything else that gets caught in the cloud or eats one or a number of the species that ingested the toxins. All livestock is obviously shot and burned. Working farm dogs will be lost over time as there is no use for them anymore so instead of a dog that can herd you have a dog that can do flyball. All moles will be turfed out. Rabbits will definitely have to be cleared. Badgers will certainly have to go as will deer, pigeons, corvids, butterflies, moths, flies, pollinators etc etc etc will all have to go. The hedgerows will be lost so that the fields can be joined up making it easier and more profitable to manage as there will be no need to have a barrier between livestock so they cant interbreed and certainly wont be needed to stop the livestock getting the hay or silage fields.
The run off from the chemicals sprayed on the crops will over time find its way into the water systems suffocating billions of other species and habitats including the vast estuaries that millions of waders reply on each year as the filter feeders (molluscs etc) will have ingested the toxins and most likely died. 
Yes, it will probably feed humans both nothing else. A great solution you have there. Congratulations on wiping out complete species in Britain with immediate effect.



Knightofalbion said:


> A handful of GM free soya grown in this country differs how from a handful of GM free wheat grown in this country for your bit of bread?


Erm, perhaps it differs because I feed myself and others with the wheat, not a horse. Just how ridiculous of a comparison do you want to make? If you can get GM Free soya in Britain for a chuffin horse, then get your dairy alternative from there as well or is that just too simple of an idea?



Knightofalbion said:


> He has as much right to be here as you. He is a lot more harmless and generates less pollution than you.


Ah yes, there it is. So do the rats not have as much right to be here as well? Can I not put preventions in place to stop a horse getting into my garden as I can do with rats?

That actually leads to another issue I presented you with in another thread. If you got rats in your premises and they were causing issues like eating your veg, getting into your pantry etc and generally leaving dropping everywhere (you probably already do have rats in your property by the way) what would you do to them?


Knightofalbion said:


> And he doesn't drive twice a month to an environmentally damaging commercial chicken processing plant in North Yorkshire either, but that's another story.


The carcasses I buy for the dogs are a by-product of the food industry that Joe Public subscribe to. As I have said I dont like things going to waste and the carcasses would only go to be incinerated and wasted. They are not chickens specially raised for dog food or is that what you were thinking? If the public demand wasnt there then the carcasses would be unavailable so I wouldnt use them to stop them going to waste as there wouldnt be any waste. Making the best of the situation I can.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

I thought this deserved a separate reply because your prejudice is phenomenal and your religious overtones certainly dont add up to your tone of phrase in this.



Knightofalbion said:


> And hypocrisy? Well, he at least doesn't associate with badger baiters, eat veal, shoot, fish, course and trap and then lecture on ethics on an animal lover's forum.


Wow!! You must have a very small and niche circle of friends. 
What difference does it make if they used to be badger baiters? Yes, used, read the post again in the other thread and you will see that I was talking of their activities ion a past tense.

What do you think they do now? Do you think they waste the knowledge they gained during their years doing activities that we both dont agree with?
Do you know how I stated that I see things from both sides so I have a greater knowledge than you do? Well I dont just do things myself I actually listen to various folk instead of hearing what they say and if I disagree with it I slam my beliefs in their face and refuse to hear their point of view.

Tell me what reaction you would get if you walked into a pub or any other establishment and asked if there were any badger baiters or terrier men or poachers there? Youd get zip reaction other than a No. Clearly you believe that badger baiters or any person associated with the named activities in your post are not worth the time, they clearly have nothing to offer you as you have everything you need to know in your website bookmarks, monthly newsletters from animal rights associations and the media guff you are fed from reporters who get their information from the same sources as you and then sensationalise it to the max to get the reader on their side. And that is just it, it is your side, one side with no other side, no comprehension of why folk do something other than they are evil and vile.

Now, Im not going to give the persons full life story but lets just say they have done more for wildlife and education of the countryside than you and I have put together.

Due to a change in circumstances they had to give up the digging activities and pretty much everything to do with hunting. After a career spanning nearly 40years it was all that they were any good at and needing to make ends meet they went into a role they could earn money in, keep their skills and knowledge alive and keep a finger in the game. The job they took on was a wildlife officer at a local countryside centre.

The role initially consisted of setting up displays, answering questions from visitors and various other duties. The first benefit they brought was their knowledge on local wildlife and because they had travelled the length and breadth of Britain the wildlife in other areas, their behaviours and the habitats required for each species to exist. Secondly was the history of hunting and poaching. The museum section rapidly grew as they donated all of their old traps, tools and photographs so a hunting section was created to give people a better understanding of hunting practices and what draw they have to the person doing that activity.

They then started hosting scheduled talks at various meetings from Womens Institute to general purpose meetings at local libraries. The feedback from the talks was so good and positive that teachers were requesting them to give talks at school. This then lead to them leading school trips around the local area at certain times to see various species. The countryside centre went from really a nothing to something quite brilliant in no time at all.

Due to the inspiration they provided to people on the tours and talks they now chair various groups in the local area that look after things such as our local moorland, making sure the access to the local woodland is adequate for more people to visit, the location of more badger setts than all of us on here know put together has help raise awareness and protection with more vigilant monitoring (not bad eh?) and they still take in injured wildlife as they always did when they had dogs and did the hunting and baiting.

She is a thoroughly engaging and knowledgeable person whom I consider it an honour and privilege to know.

Now, having explained a little about what they have done dont you think youre a bit quick off the mark to tar every hunter with the same brush and bring such prejudices to the argument about people and a lifestyle you have no idea about as you only see things from one side and do not see the benefit they ring in other areas? You are directly affected by the negative behaviours of some that then pass that knowledge across to the other side for the better, for instance, if it wasnt for knowledgeable burglars willing to use their knowledge for the better we wouldnt have the same level of security we have now. What does it say in your beliefs about prejudice and forgiveness?

You know nothing about hunting except what you have read from your side, a side I have experience of as well. The rubbish you read makes it out as though the hunter has no repsct fo their quarry and just see it as fun or without purpose. If you don't respect your quarry then you gain no knowledge about it and if you have no knowledge about it theyn you will never catch it as you need to know its behaviour, habitat and movements in order to get near it in the first place. You can read that in a book or watch a documentary for sure but are you really gaining any real knowledge through that or do you learn more through getting your hands a bit dirty? Even if it was digging up a warren and seeing where the tunnels go and where the nests are or being able to tell the difference between a trout rise and a grayling rise on a river on a summer's evening? I have experience of the other side where there is a huge chasm of knowledge that you are unaware of and you are likely never going to meaning you cannot form a balanced opinion of things. This thread has clearly highlighted that because you cant see a less intensive system working if people consume in moderation, it has to be completely stamped out altogether. In your eyes folk cant even keep a couple of chickens without it destroying the planet for crying out loud but they are more than welcome to keep cats, dogs, fish, horses, birds, rodents and reptiles.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I thought this deserved a separate reply because your prejudice is phenomenal and your religious overtones certainly dont add up to your tone of phrase in this.
> 
> Wow!! You must have a very small and niche circle of friends.
> What difference does it make if they used to be badger baiters? Yes, used, read the post again in the other thread and you will see that I was talking of their activities ion a past tense.
> ...


The kind-hearted badger-baiter, pillar of the community???

She??? "After a career spanning nearly 40 years"...???

Stuart Hall abused children in the 70s and 80s. He is still a paedophile..
And he is in prison, where she should be.

Badger baiting is a serious criminal offence. Badger baiters use extreme violence against badgers and against anyone who gets in their way - farmers, nature reserve wardens, gamekeepers.
You are withholding information. Mind you, you've given enough information here to expose her....

These charming fellows are from Yorkshire as you are; they're blood sport enthusiasts, as you are and they're about the same age as you are. You know them? And tell us did they have "respect for their quarry"?
Judge condemns badger baiters who laughed as their dogs ripped animals apart | Mail Online

You aren't a hypocrite? Associating with badger baiters - shooting - fishing - coursing with dogs - trapping - eating veal and patronizing factory farm meat processing plants and then to come here preaching ethics... on an animal lover's forum.
And what's the carbon footprint of decamping lock, stock and barrel to Canada I wonder?

It's livestock production in all its forms - even at the present level - that is fueling the destruction of the natural world, running down precious energy and natural resources, generating more greenhouse gases than all the cars, planes, boats, trains and every conceivable form on transport on the face of all the earth combined, polluting the earth and waterways, squandering vast quantities of food that could otherwise to provide sustenance for billions of people.
You can concoct ludicrous theories all you like, the fact is the livestock industry is wholly unsustainable and it'll take 'us' down with it unless we change our ways.

And I know you've a closed mind when it comes to spiritual law, but it makes no difference wheter you accept it or not, you can't escape it.

Follow the path of cruelty and bloodshed if you want, but see where it takes you.
Suffering can only be requited by suffering...

Now I think this thread has served its purpose. I have no more to add.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Oh I see what you've done. The assumption that the career they had in hunting was purely badger related and so was the travelling. You're mistaken in your assumption by a country mile. Pest control was their profession by trade and living off the land. 

The badger bit was done less times than you have ears but she knew the guys that ran the dogs so knew what it was all about. They'll be a long time dead by now so don't worry (dogs and people that is).

Are you THAT innocently minded that you thought only male participants went out hunting with traps, snares and ran dogs? Surely you can't think that?

I've taught women of all ages how to fly cast and they always outperform the blokes - Joan Wolfe is arguably the greatest fly caster to have ever been documented and April Vokey is one of the most sort after guides (yes, for her knowledge over her looks). The ladies at one of the stables were having a competition with my rifle last month having seen me down there and wanted to have a go, my last girlfriend was a real townie and she came out one night to see what it was all about and absolutely loved it. My nieces have helped lift traps before and the youngest enjoys digging the holes to put them in. It's not just a blokes game by any stretch of the imagination.

Sorry, I can't help you out with the guys in the article, Yorkshire's a big place and they are in North Yorkshire, I'm not. But it is truly sickening and not something I would come close to agreeing with.

You're really focussed on my ambition to move to another country aren't you? I won't be moving a house or a piano (as I dont own one) over there, just some belongings (photos, family bits and my fishing rod) and some clothes. The only non-essential items will be the dogs. It's only like going abroad on holiday, no big deal and nothing to work yourself up over. Probably takes less fuel than it would to fly a tin of coconut milk from Vietnam.

I do what I do so I don't have to rely on others to provide my food for me so they can manipulate it in any way, it has the best quality of life, if it's an unfortunate by-product it isn't a total waste and I adapt my duet to the seasons or prepare in advance so I am not funding this industry you think all meat and dairy production adheres to. 
If for any reason the food production in this country ever breaks down and there is none available in shops etc then at least I will have the knowledge, means and skills to still provide. It's survival in its rawest format and in this day and age of ultra convenience I am proud of how I live and I am truly grateful to those who have passed on their knowledge and still produce great products despite the temptation to go down other routes. 

Have your final word about "how can I be proud of causing suffering" or any other campaign trail you're on. Just because you know what I do doesn't mean you know anything about what I do and you never will as I said before.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Why am I not surprised it was to do with America?
> So what effect on wildlife would the creation of these monoculture deserts cause?
> At the moment you can have livestock in a field and in that field you have a billion other forms of life from species that occupy the soil, the stuff that lives off of the pasture plant life and the droppings of the livestock and the surrounding hedgerows. If you put crops in those fields you lose, I would estimate, about 95% of all life in that field. Pesticides, herbicides and insecticides will clear out the field and then anything else that gets caught in the cloud or eats one or a number of the species that ingested the toxins. All livestock is obviously shot and burned. Working farm dogs will be lost over time as there is no use for them anymore so instead of a dog that can herd you have a dog that can do flyball. All moles will be turfed out. Rabbits will definitely have to be cleared. Badgers will certainly have to go as will deer, pigeons, corvids, butterflies, moths, flies, pollinators etc etc etc will all have to go. The hedgerows will be lost so that the fields can be joined up making it easier and more profitable to manage as there will be no need to have a barrier between livestock so they cant interbreed and certainly wont be needed to stop the livestock getting the hay or silage fields.
> The run off from the chemicals sprayed on the crops will over time find its way into the water systems suffocating billions of other species and habitats including the vast estuaries that millions of waders reply on each year as the filter feeders (molluscs etc) will have ingested the toxins and most likely died.
> Yes, it will probably feed humans both nothing else. A great solution you have there. Congratulations on wiping out complete species in Britain with immediate effect.


What???? Hutch you do realise that A) arable farming already exists in the UK and, although not perfect, the apocalypse hasn't happened. It's incredibly insulting to the arable growers that do make an effort with wildlife on their land to suggest that they're all destroying the countryside by throwing chemicals around and exterminating wildlife. B)The vast, vast majority of arable crops grown for human consumption are not grown as alternatives to dietary animal products but as an addition to them C) A MASSIVE PROPORTION OF THE ARABLE CROPS WE GROW GOES INTO LIVESTOCK FEED (I thought making it capitals might finally get the point across) and D) Many grazed livestock or forage crop systems are monocultures of the likes of maize and perennial ryegrass with just the poor biodiversity problems you're going on about.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

lennythecloud said:


> What???? Hutch you do realise that A) arable farming already exists in the UK and, although not perfect, the apocalypse hasn't happened. It's incredibly insulting to the arable growers that do make an effort with wildlife on their land to suggest that they're all destroying the countryside by throwing chemicals around and exterminating wildlife. B)The vast, vast majority of arable crops grown for human consumption are not grown as alternatives to dietary animal products but as an addition to them C) A MASSIVE PROPORTION OF THE ARABLE CROPS WE GROW GOES INTO LIVESTOCK FEED (I thought making it capitals might finally get the point across) and D) Many grazed livestock or forage crop systems are monocultures of the likes of maize and perennial ryegrass with just the poor biodiversity problems you're going on about.


A, B , C ,D). Thanks for the heads up.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> A, B , C ,D). Thanks for the heads up.


Repeat what? Your argument that veganism is going to end the world through environmental destruction just doesn't hold up to any kind of logical scrutiny when looking at modern food production, sorry.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

lennythecloud said:


> Repeat what? Your argument that veganism is going to end the world through environmental destruction just doesn't hold up to any kind of logical scrutiny when looking at modern food production, sorry.


This just proves that no matter what I write it doesn't matter either way. I'll just stick to living a diet that is provided by the fruits of this land, anybody else can stick to what suits them be it from this land or getting their products shipped in from any other land around the globe, just don't try and make out that everyone else is damaging the planet becasue they are sum jumped up wanna be eco-warrior that can't even live off the produce of this land be it vegan, vegetarian or omnivore.

Where did I say it would end the world? I referred to the animals that would be lost. I'd still be able to eat my diet though as I would be called in more often to clear rabbits and pests to prevent them from scoffing all of the veg and cereal crops that would be planted where livestock once stood. Bonus for me, but everywhere will stand to lose a lot of the animals that would be supposedly better off if everyone switched to vegan.

You want to be vegan, go be vegan as I couldn't give a monkey's nut, I'm not stopping you at all, never have done and it has never been my mission throughout this thread. I'm all about buying local and knowing where your food comes from. I know where my food comes from as I see it everyday in my local area running, growing, drinking, feeding, breeding etc. and I know where its food comes from too. So to sum it up for you without the need for capital letters:

I am a very large step away from the global multi-nationals and intensive farming schemes and get the vast majority of my meat by preventing local environmental damage without the need to put any strain on this or any other enviornment or land.

Winner winner, ooh look, chicken dinner. Time to pluck off and get Sunday's roast looking more like lunch and less like a chicken.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> This just proves that no matter what I write it doesn't matter either way. I'll just stick to living a diet that is provided by the fruits of this land, anybody else can stick to what suits them be it from this land or getting their products shipped in from any other land around the globe, just don't try and make out that everyone else is damaging the planet becasue they are sum jumped up wanna be eco-warrior that can't even live off the produce of this land be it vegan, vegetarian or omnivore.
> 
> Where did I say it would end the world? I referred to the animals that would be lost. I'd still be able to eat my diet though as I would be called in more often to clear rabbits and pests to prevent them from scoffing all of the veg and cereal crops that would be planted where livestock once stood. Bonus for me, but everyone will standse a lot of the animals that would be supposedly better off if everyone switched to vegan.
> 
> ...


 As I've said before I'm not berating for what you eat. However your response to KOA can be summarised as - 'if lots of people go veg*n, environmental catastrophe will ensue' - my problem is that has simply no bearing on reality. Your way of eating is very nice but it cannot be extrapolated up to the rest of the worlds population - it's just not possible, on any level, and to believe otherwise is pure fantasy.

If every person in the UK decided to 'live off the land' and catch one wild rabbit for the pot tonight, just one, the wild rabbit would be extinct tomorrow. If everyone in the UK cut their dairy by a half and switched to the organic, low intensity system you love, do you have any idea how much land and how many animals we would need to support? And that's just the UK, we haven't even talked about the rest of the world developing and the worldwide demand for animal products increasing exponentially as a result. You really have no idea of the scale of this issue and have no idea of how agriculture has to work these days.

I eat local as much as possible but fully except we live in a globalized society and I'm perfectly happy to eat imported products if they're ethically produced. You can pretend that you are separate entirely from multinationals but I could comfortably bet money that your not. Your chickens feed - I suppose you saw every step that went into making that? Your dairy farmers have to, by law pay a levy to DairyCo, do you know their global links? And I'm sure whatever device it is that your typing on grew in a sunny field in Yorkshire  .


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

lennythecloud said:


> As I've said before I'm not berating for what you eat. However your response to KOA can be summarised as - 'if lots of people go veg*n, environmental catastrophe will ensue' - my problem is that has simply no bearing on reality. Your way of eating is very nice but it cannot be extrapolated up to the rest of the worlds population - it's just not possible, on any level, and to believe otherwise is pure fantasy.
> 
> If every person in the UK decided to 'live off the land' and catch one wild rabbit for the pot tonight, just one, the wild rabbit would be extinct tomorrow. If everyone in the UK cut their dairy by a half and switched to the organic, low intensity system you love, do you have any idea how much land and how many animals we would need to support? And that's just the UK, we haven't even talked about the rest of the world developing and the worldwide demand for animal products increasing exponentially as a result. You really have no idea of the scale of this issue and have no idea of how agriculture has to work these days.
> 
> I eat local as much as possible but fully except we live in a globalized society and I'm perfectly happy to eat imported products if they're ethically produced. You can pretend that you are separate entirely from multinationals but I could comfortably bet money that your not. Your chickens feed - I suppose you saw every step that went into making that? Your dairy farmers have to, by law pay a levy to DairyCo, do you know their global links? And I'm sure whatever device it is that your typing on grew in a sunny field in Yorkshire  .


Where have I said an environmental catastrophe will ensue? KOA said they can source their feed for their horse from GM free stock here in the UK so why can't KOA get their non-dairy products from here in the UK isntead of Vietnam or Europe or where ever else?

So people can't grow stuff in their garden to ease the demand on the food industry just that little bit then, they want off street parking to cut their insurance premium? They can't keep chickens for eggs or the pot for their family and the neighbours? They can't plant fruit trees on roundabouts, in parks or in schools? They can't plant veg instead of flowers in community areas? Wasteland can't be turned into community small holdings or further allotments? You can't grow rasberries and gooseberries at the side of railway lines or on the vast swathes of deserted motorway embankments Dig for Britain! Dig for Britain! It was done before when there was less population and more space but there is no reason why it can't be done on a lesser scale to ease the pressures elsewhere. Sure those in high rise or appartments can't grow anything in their gradens but growing stuff on a window sill isn't exactly like building a space shuttle, even if it's just a bit of cress in a used egg shell or some herbs or chillies or some cascading tomatos. People don't because they have no idea how or no inclination or would rather see something pretty than practical.

If everyone cut their dairy by half AND was willing to pay a little bit more then the systems would be a lot less intense. We import 60% of our dairy milk pretty much. One of the farms I know exports almost ALL of their milk because there is no demand for it, it costs more than your average pint to produce so costs more than your average price to buy etc. Why on earth am I having to explain this again?

The chicken feed I have explained but you probably didn't read the whole post.

What is it about people that when you try to have a discussion they have to bring in subjects that are not related to the topic to try and make a point? I have guttering on my house that probably wasn't made in this country. I have three metal dog bowls that probably weren't made in this country. I have tools that weren't made in this country. I have books that probably weren't printed in this country on trees that probably were grown in this country. How many of these item do I replace on a weekly or even yearly basis, some of them I won't even replace in my life time?

Good luck feeding yourself if we ever get cut off from import or oil prices go so sky high that your weekly salad leaves from Spain cost about the same as a your TV or computer did.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> As I've said before I'm not berating for what you eat. However your response to KOA can be summarised as - 'if lots of people go veg*n, environmental catastrophe will ensue' - my problem is that has simply no bearing on reality. Your way of eating is very nice but it cannot be extrapolated up to the rest of the worlds population - it's just not possible, on any level, and to believe otherwise is pure fantasy.
> 
> *If every person in the UK decided to 'live off the land' and catch one wild rabbit for the pot tonight, just one, the wild rabbit would be extinct tomorrow.* If everyone in the UK cut their dairy by a half and switched to the organic, low intensity system you love, do you have any idea how much land and how many animals we would need to support? And that's just the UK, we haven't even talked about the rest of the world developing and the worldwide demand for animal products increasing exponentially as a result. You really have no idea of the scale of this issue and have no idea of how agriculture has to work these days.
> 
> I eat local as much as possible but fully except we live in a globalized society and I'm perfectly happy to eat imported products if they're ethically produced. You can pretend that you are separate entirely from multinationals but I could comfortably bet money that your not. Your chickens feed - I suppose you saw every step that went into making that? Your dairy farmers have to, by law pay a levy to DairyCo, do you know their global links? And I'm sure whatever device it is that your typing on grew in a sunny field in Yorkshire  .


If every person in the UK decided to go vegan, what would happen to all the animals?

Would there be no pest control, to stop rabbits etc eating the veg crops all the humans needed?

Would all the animals bred for food or dairy just be turned loose, and its assumed they could feed themselves comfortably and have a happy, long and fulfilled life (bearing in mind all the land would be needed for the entire human populations veg needs)?

So all the sheep and pigs and cows (and other animals) are roaming free to eat what they find, all the fields dont need any sort of pest control whatsoever, from insects or mammals, and there is enough land, food and resources for all?

And then that gets extended to the whole world - afterall, its the only way to save the word isn't it?

All humans are totally vegan, all animals are happy and roaming free, and there is enough room and food for everyone - and not one single species will suffer.

_Really?? _


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Why am I not surprised it was to do with America?
> So what effect on wildlife would the creation of these monoculture deserts cause?
> At the moment you can have livestock in a field and in that field you have a billion other forms of life from species that occupy the soil, the stuff that lives off of the pasture plant life and the droppings of the livestock and the surrounding hedgerows. If you put crops in those fields you lose, I would estimate, about 95% of all life in that field. Pesticides, herbicides and insecticides will clear out the field and then anything else that gets caught in the cloud or eats one or a number of the species that ingested the toxins. All livestock is obviously shot and burned. Working farm dogs will be lost over time as there is no use for them anymore so instead of a dog that can herd you have a dog that can do flyball. All moles will be turfed out. Rabbits will definitely have to be cleared. Badgers will certainly have to go as will deer, pigeons, corvids, butterflies, moths, flies, pollinators etc etc etc will all have to go.
> 
> ...





hutch6 said:


> This just proves that no matter what I write it doesn't matter either way. I'll just stick to living a diet that is provided by the fruits of this land, anybody else can stick to what suits them be it from this land or getting their products shipped in from any other land around the globe, just don't try and make out that everyone else is damaging the planet becasue they are sum jumped up wanna be eco-warrior that can't even live off the produce of this land be it vegan, vegetarian or omnivore.
> 
> I
> 
> ...


Less crops would need to be grown not more Hutch.

Even if people cut down on eating meat, say have one meat free day a week it can make a difference. This eat less meat site seems good for people who don't want to give up eating meat but want to try to make a difference..

Eat Less Meat

,

.

................


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MCWillow said:


> If every person in the UK decided to go vegan, what would happen to all the animals?
> 
> I imagine they'd stop breeding them
> 
> ...


Farming livestock is one of the biggest threats to our finite planet MC.

Food shortages could force world into vegetarianism, warn scientists | Global development | The Guardian

Livestock a major threat to environment

.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Less crops would need to be grown not more Hutch.
> 
> Even if people cut down on eating meat, say have one meat free day a week it can make a difference. This eat less meat site seems good for people who don't want to give up eating meat but want to try to make a difference..
> 
> ...


So with everyone eating veg we need to grow less veg or do you mean less crops for livestock will need to be grown? What gets put in the fields that were used for livestock grains? What happens to the other million and one products that use the animal material after slaughter that everyone probably uses on a regular basis?

To be honest Noush there isn't anything on that link I don't adhere to really if you consider the time and effort I expend to get things in my stomach. All the stats are about American beef and dairy, ok so some could be transferred to intensive schemes (that I don't give money to) here but when I read all of the stuff at the bottom that were pointers on eating less animal and dairy, I ticked those off years ago.

Contrary to people's opinions or assumptions I don't sit down at meal times with a plate of flesh and a gallon of milk to wash it all down with. I don't even eat meat every day or every other day, a pice of meat can last two or three days in different meals, it all gets interchanged with purely veg days without even thinking about it, it's just what is available to me at the time. It's a balanced diet but it swings with the seasons. My shepherd's pie might as well be called Grower's Pie as there isn't anything in it a shepherd would want to or need to watch.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I've lost the will to even open the links, they don't seem to be many from peer reviewed scientific studies, and you can just as easily google information to support the opposite view!


I've lost the will to live reading this thread..... 
I like meat and dairy and so do my cats. The best I can do is source the food I eat as ethically as possible. If everyone did that, regardless of what they ate, then the world would be a better place, environmentally speaking.
Veganism is not for everyone, and many people are, and will remain, committed carnivores (especially in Africa) so vegan vs carnivore is a pointless debate IMO. The best we can do as a collective is to question where things come from and make (realistic) ethical choices.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

IF you want a snippet into why I call them poopermarkets and believ they should be boycotted and bulldozed and burned to the ground and then made into allotments or something more constructive to humanity and the environment then this is just one teenie tiny issue of food wastage.

A poopermarket that have a quality mark that they uphold and base their whole brand on. Now if you pop into a servcie station outlet, a high stree outlet that are smaller than their supermarket stores etc as well as their supermarket stores you will see refrigerated units wherer you can buy pre-packed sandwiches. 
In order to mkae those sandwiches stipulate that the first two slices of bread at either end of the loaf be discarded and not used in their pre-packed sandwiches (the crusts and the next slice along at both ends).

This results in 13,000 slices of bread being taken out of the human food chain every day. 17% of the loaves this poopermarket buys does not even make it passed the doors of the manufacturing unit.

Up until 2009 one processing factory that dealt with the poopermarket brand production used to pay over £60,000 per year for the waste from their plant to be sent to landfill or anaerobic digestion despite that waste containing hundreds of tonnes of bread which could have been sent to feed livestock. Another processing unit that produced only vegetarian sandwiches SOLD their waste at £25 per tone to go to animal feed.

Now before you think that the bread and meat etc was all mixed together and we know the results of feeding meat to livestock, the bread - the crusts and the two slices either side - were put in the bins way before it got anywhere near any meat or other products, all it would have taken was a seperate bin.

As of Arpil 2009 the processing unit vowed to change its policy, I am unaware if this has happened or not.

This is just pre-packed sandwiches production at the very first step of making a sandwich - the bread, I can't tell you how much is wasted for fillings. If the pre-made orders are not required due to something so simple like a change in the weather or even the cancellation of a sporting event, these products have a shelf life of a few days, if they are sat in a manufacturing unit for anything longer than 24hrs they are simply not supplied because a longer shlelf life is always more appealing to consumers so pallets, lorry loads of upto 100,000 packs of sandwiches (could be two or three in a pack) are binned and sent for landfill because they are already packaged up. They aren't dished out to the needy, poor, hospitals or shelters they are just loaded up in a dump truck and then dumped in a landfill to rot down. This is JUST SANDWICHES IN ONE POOPERMARKET, think of all of the other outelts aroudn the country that buy in and sell pre-packed sandwiches.

ETA: Info from the book "Waste" - Tristram Stuart.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> IF you want a snippet into why I call them poopermarkets and believ they should be boycotted and bulldozed and burned to the ground and then made into allotments or something more constructive to humanity and the environment then this is just one teenie tiny issue of food wastage.
> 
> M & S have a quality mark that they uphold and base their whole brand on. Now if you pop into a servcie station M & S outlet, a high stree M & S outlet that are smaller than their supermarket stores etc as well as their supermarket stores you will see refrigerated units wherer you can buy pre-packed sandwiches.
> In order to mkae those sandwiches M & S stipulate that the first two slices of bread at either end of the loaf be discarded and not used in their pre-packed sandwiches (the crusts and the next slice along at both ends).
> ...


This is why I hate supermarkets, the waste, along with what they deliberately to to farmers, local businesses etc. I do use them, but the list of things I buy there is decreasing. OH makes his own bread and has now started to make pasta - delicious, and fancy speciality flours not necessary. My ketchups, chutneys, pickles, jams etc. kick the backside out of supermarket versions for 
taste. And they are made very often from free food growing in the hedgrows.

When I buy lamb, poultry, pork, it's produced to order. At the moment of ordering, it's still running round the field. There's no waste, and the farmer knows I want the bits most people don't, for the dogs, for stock, and for cooking that many people would say "ick" to nowadays (home made liver pate, anyone?). I don't see the argument that living this way is somehow unsustainable 

I'm not contributing to the massive waste of resources and life involved in keeping supermarkets stocked constantly with supplies of meat, but somehow it's unsustainable apparently.

I think there might be a blind spot here about how big a change in shopping habits buying locally can be - I don't walk into the farm shop and expect to choose from rows of ready packed meat, or expect any veg other than leeks all year round - I buy what's in season and cook accordingly when it comes to veg.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Here's how you feed the world population and still be able to feed the extra 2billion come 2050 or whatever year it was:

BBC News - UK supermarkets reject &#039;wasted food&#039; report claims

Who's to blame for supermarket rejection of 'ugly' fruit and vegetables? - The Ecologist

Waste

The Scandal of Food Waste

Feeding the 5k *******

Eating weird and wonky fruit and veg could cut food waste, survey finds | Environment | guardian.co.uk

This is JUST FRUIT AND VEG, the mainstay of everyone's diet including vegan, vegatrian and omnivore.

****** Waste - Tristram Stuart is where I got the sandwich info from, that book is a real eye opener to anyone.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

I just read out your post about pre-packed sandwhiches to OH, hutch.

As a student he worked at Burger King - the rule was that there always had to be a burgers on the chute, pre-made so that the customer instantly has their bap full of junk....they had to be thrown away 10 minutes after making them up, so they could say they were freshly made.

The result being that if they had a quiet couple of hours, they were relentlessly making burgers and throwing them away, so the customers could have freshly made obesity bullets, the moment they ordered.

The wider implications p*ss me right off - the price of meat being driven relentlessly down, till farmers are forced either out of business or into intensive methods, all because we can't wait 5 minutes for our food to be made these days.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

myshkin said:


> I just read out your post about pre-packed sandwhiches to OH, hutch.
> 
> As a student he worked at Burger King - the rule was that there always had to be a burgers on the chute, pre-made so that the customer instantly has their bap full of junk....they had to be thrown away 10 minutes after making them up, so they could say they were freshly made.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. It's the price the whole planet must pay for "our" convenience. We shouldn't be relying on such things or indeed need them.

Grow your own, allotments (these have to be provided by law under every council if there is sufficient demand), "pick your own" setups etc etc etc. There is plenty to keep everyone going if everyone stopped using poopermarkets. It's not rocket science and relatively easy to do.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> So with everyone eating veg we need to grow less veg or do you mean less crops for livestock will need to be grown? What gets put in the fields that were used for livestock grains? What happens to the other million and one products that use the animal material after slaughter that everyone probably uses on a regular basis?
> 
> Livestock eat far more crops then humans do, if most crops went directly to feed humans then less land would be needed to grow them. (Livestock farming also uses a lot more water.) I would love to see the land that was once needed to sustain livestock 'rewilded' . For most animal by products theres usually a vegan alternative.
> 
> ...


I can see that Hutch. I have been merely pointing out the misinformation re veganism so anyone reading this may be better informed. What people choose to eat is up to them. Course i'd love to think they'd try to reduce their meat/dairy intake when they see how damaging the livestock industry is, the demand for it at this present rate is unsustainable. Eating less farmed animal produce/cutting it out altogether can only be a good thing. Its continuous growth on a finite planet becomes at some point impossible. The livestock industry is one of biggest contributors of global warming...and global warming is the greatest threat to all life on this planet.

.


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