# Working Test for Show Dogs(FCI ), just a waste of time?



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

So quick question.......... In Europe, most dogs have to have working/field/hunting etc test to be considered for BOB, many people I know in Rott's and GSD's now show their dogs in Europe ( GSD BOB in Crufts, being an example). Having been told a few days ago that Ch Elmo vom Hühnegrab Sieger VA1 SchH3 kkl1 Lbz, is not high drive or able to working makes me wonder, how those in the working circles feel about the trails the European dogs have to complete to be considered for BOB, is it just a "show thing meaning nothing" or is it something that helps preserve the drive and working ability of any of the breeds who were intended to do a days work, be it Hound, Terrier etc?

Is it something that should be brought in here, or is it something that those who have a "dislike" of the show world will blow off as meaning nothing, or could it be something that help "preserve" the ability and functions that a dogs was originally bred for?


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

It's definitely an interesting question and something to think about. 

Personally, for my two cents, I'm not sure it would work if it was introduced over here as a compulsory requirement, and that purely comes down to time and training. Having a show dog, and doing the show circuit takes up a huge amount of time, as does having a field trial dog. Realistically, people only have a finite amount of time - personally, I would rather train my dog well in one discipline rather than spread it across multiple ones where he would possibly put in a shoddy performance. What if you decide to try out showing when your dog is, say, eighteen months and past training age to be a true field trial dog? From my (limited) reading into working dogs, they need to be trained in the right behaviors from a young age. Or, what if you live with an excellent show dog in the city - that's a lot of additional time, effort and money to travel out to the country on the weekends to train in the field, especially if that's when most shows are on.

Could you also argue that introducing field trial qualifications also puts 'working' and 'show' on a tier above other dog activities like agility or flyball? What if a show dog also did well at either of those - would they still need the field trial thumbs up? 

Additionally, what about breeds such as Dalmatians who were originally bred to run alongside carriages? Where would they fit? Definitely something to think about!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Yes. All dogs should be bred for purpose and tested for ability primarily and then "Doesn't it look pretty dear?". I'd even go as far as to introduce medical records as a point of reference too, but I think that may be a step too far.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Pezant said:


> It's definitely an interesting question and something to think about.
> 
> Personally, for my two cents, I'm not sure it would work if it was introduced over here as a compulsory requirement, and that purely comes down to time and training. Having a show dog, and doing the show circuit takes up a huge amount of time, as does having a field trial dog. Realistically, people only have a finite amount of time - personally, I would rather train my dog well in one discipline rather than spread it across multiple ones where he would possibly put in a shoddy performance. What if you decide to try out showing when your dog is, say, eighteen months and past training age to be a true field trial dog? From my (limited) reading into working dogs, they need to be trained in the right behaviors from a young age.
> 
> ...


Have a wee look here just to see what they cover  It's amazing..

Règlements

And here for a bit of a better explanation :

The Fédération Cynologique Internationale is the World Canine Organisation. It includes 87 members and contract partners (one member per country) that each issue their own pedigrees and train their own judges. The FCI makes sure that the pedigrees and judges are mutually recognised by all the FCI members.

The FCI recognises 343 breeds, Each of them is the 'property' of a specific country. The 'owner' countries of the breeds write the standard of these breeds (description of the ideal type of the breed), in co-operation with the Standards and Scientific Commissions of the FCI, and the translation and updating are carried out by the FCI. These standards are in fact the reference on which the judges base themselves when judging in shows held in the FCI member countries; they are THE reference assisting the breeders in their attempt to produce top-quality dogs.

Every member country conducts international shows (conformation shows) as well as working/hunting trials and tests, as well as races/coursing. Results are sent to the FCI office where they are processed. When a dog has been awarded a certain number of awards, it is eligible to receive the title of International Beauty, Show or Working Champion. These titles are confirmed by the FCI.

In addition, via the national canine organisation and the FCI, every breeder can ask for international registration of his/her kennel name.

Eventually, the FCI keeps a list of all the judges appointed by its different members.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Nah. Have you seen what the GSDs have to do with that schutzhound thing? I watched Elmo's tests a long time ago and he barely needed back legs to do it, spent most of his time hanging in the air off someone's arm. 

Chances are it would have to be a well watered down version of what true working dogs do, if only because of time constraints and as such pointless imo. I think it would be unfair to expect someone who enjoys showing to have to learn and train working dogs and then show them. People who enjoy working their dogs are unlikely to enjoy parading in a show ring, so we'd probably end up with no-one entering anything. lol

A show dog can be just a show dog, so long as people realise and accept that is what he is. jmho


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

...only if the working world have to have their dogs assessed against their breed standard too


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

hutch6 said:


> Yes. All dogs should be bred for purpose and tested for ability primarily and then "Doesn't it look pretty dear?". I'd even go as far as to introduce medical records as a point of reference too, but I think that may be a step too far.


Ok so this leads nicely on to a point... I have seen lots of comments about the BOB GSD, about how bad he looked, horrible sloping back etc but he is worked and he is working/sports dog of a high standard... So he is not just looks he can work, but people just look at him and judge him as "shocking & awful" to name but a few. So this is what I mean but will it help the show world, or will those who hate it always hate, if purely because it's a show and they are messing with the breeds...


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

Bijou said:


> ...only if the working world have to have their dogs assessed against their breed standard too


I rather like that idea!

I would like to see working dogs (those who compete) needing to at least fit within a minimum of the breed standard in order to get the top accolades, and I would like all dogs to be required to pass a minimum level of fitness and stamina (appropriate to the breed and its original purposes).


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Mmm, not sure that all the show folk would go for that and I can't really see the need. The vast majority of dogs in this day and age are pets through and through. As long as everyone responsible is working off the same hymn sheet, ie. that the dogs are sound, healthy and of a type that could do the intended job I think drive is not necessarily a good thing for either show or pet dogs.

The working people can preserve drive as long as there is enough gene pool by keeping working and show as interchangeable if necessary.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> I would like to see working dogs (those who compete) needing to at least fit within a minimum of the breed standard


I wouldn't. I think it would be terrible if a really excellent working dog was excluded because of something unusual about the way he looked that meant he didn't match breed standard, eg he was a few mm short at the wither, or his head wasn't quite the right shape. It would just be a way of lessening the gene pool and excluding working dogs for no reason other than looks.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> I wouldn't. I think it would be terrible if a really excellent working dog was excluded because of something unusual about the way he looked that meant he didn't match breed standard, eg he was a few mm short at the wither, or his head wasn't quite the right shape. It would just be a way of lessening the gene pool and excluding working dogs for no reason other than looks.


Agreed, there's so much more to a working dog than looks. My first Goldie would have struggled to fit the breed standard, but her working ability was stunning, one of the best I've ever seen. Unfortunately her temperament wasn't quite right, so her abilities were never passed on. 
However if her temperament had been better, would I have been bad to breed from a dog with superb abilities and sound enough to work until 13? 

Just thought: If I had of bred from her I would have attempted to improve on her weak points


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Elles said:


> Nah. Have you seen what the GSDs have to do with that schutzhound thing? I watched Elmo's tests a long time ago and he barely needed back legs to do it, spent most of his time hanging in the air off someone's arm.


Not quite what they were bred for just adapted for and took to rather well. I much prefer to see them orbiting sheep and being doorman for them at brisges "No no no, after YOU Dolly and your 200 lovely sisters. Good morning ladies. Keep things moving. What a lovely day. Isn't today just the most loveliest of days? What? Right boss, I'm on it now. Coming up on your right, stay in line now and keep all hooves and horns inside the caravan of wool at all times".


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> , not sure that all the show folk would go for that and I can't really see the need. The vast majority of dogs in this day and age are pets through and through.


Although the Show folk in Europe do it as standard, and a lot of the top working/pastoral show people do it here already?



rona said:


> As long as everyone responsible is working off the same hymn sheet, ie. that the dogs are sound, healthy and of a type that could do the intended job I think drive is not necessarily a good thing for either show or pet dogs.


But surely "drive" along with the Health and type is what helps a dog do it's intended job.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...only if the working world have to have their dogs assessed against their breed standard too


In Sweden all working breeds can be assessed against the breed standard AND do a mental test. If the dog pass both test they get a title, which roughly means "approved for breeding"; although I personally believe that it's not quite enough for breeding because it doesn't evaluate the working abilities enough (however, in combination with merits from working trials it's definitely something worth considering in breeding).

That assessment against the breed standard is more extensive than the evaluation you get in a dog show. When I did it with my dog I first showed her a a regular dog show and then did the assessment against the breed standard that same afternoon. In the dog show the judge looked at her movements and examined her a little, then we got an Excellent just like that.

When he did the assessment against the breed standard he had a long list of thing that he had to check (for example, he had to count the teeth, measure hight and length and make sure the proportions were right). Of course my dog passed the assessment as well, because she fits the breed standard very well, but it was not as easy as getting an Excellent.

In my opinion, an assessment against breed standard is worth a lot more than dog show merits and I think it's a better alternative than dog shows. Dog shows are pointless and totally unnecessary.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

well now ..... I have a problem with what people define as 'work' .....in my book only a tiny fraction of dogs REALLY work ( Search and rescue, Military, Police, Shepherding and Guide dogs come to mind ) all the rest are really simply taking part in their owners hobby ...and these are surely of no more intrinsic value than anyone else's ..so ..if I have to 'prove' my show BSD by having them hang off a padded sleeve ( as in the hobby of Schutzhund ) then why on earth can't their dogs 'prove' their quality by taking part in my hobby ?...

and the gene pool arguement works both ways


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Pezant said:


> Having a show dog, and doing the show circuit takes up a huge amount of time, as does having a field trial dog. Realistically, people only have a finite amount of time - personally, I would rather train my dog well in one discipline rather than spread it across multiple ones where he would possibly put in a shoddy performance.


I agree that most people have time restraints, but I don't think a dog should be able to win a show unless it is able to do the job it was bred to do. I don't know too much about it but I don't think I agree with 'show lines' and 'working lines'.

So rather than having to be a working dog and a showing dog full time, maybe they could pass some kind of course that proves they'd be able to work if the owner wished to undergo the full training? I don't know.

Then there's the argument that if something like this happened then it's just more 'tests' for a working dog opposed to a companion dog to pass. Meaning a companion dog would have an easier time in the show ring.

It's hard to know what's best!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

In Sweden some breeds have a working requirement to become a show champion. However, that requirement is set rather low for most breeds (they vary a little), which means that just about any dog of the breed can do it with a little training. 

If the requirements were set higher I'd think it was a good idea, but as it is now it doesn't really say anything about the dog's working abilities.

But I don't know anything about what working tests has to be done in the rest of Europe.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Although the Show folk in Europe do it as standard, and a lot of the top working/pastoral show people do it here already?
> 
> But surely "drive" along with the Health and type is what helps a dog do it's intended job.


Well yes because they want to here. I don't see why they should be forced to do something with their own dog just too compete in something else.

If show people and working people were just more mindful of what they hell they are doing to dogs, then this conversation wouldn't be necessary.

I'll never understand why any person doesn't want the best for their own dog and future dogs


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bijou said:


> well now ..... I have a problem with what people define as 'work' .....in my book only a tiny fraction of dogs REALLY work ( Search and rescue, Military, Police, Shepherding and Guide dogs come to mind ) all the rest are really simply taking part in their owners hobby ...and these are surely of no more intrinsic value than anyone else's ..so ..if I have to 'prove' my show BSD by having them hang off a padded sleeve ( as in the hobby of Schutzhund ) then why on earth can't their dogs 'prove' their quality by taking part in my hobby ?...
> 
> *and the gene pool arguement works both ways*


Agreed ........


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

rona said:


> Mmm, not sure that all the show folk would go for that


I don't think they'd go for it either. Show people don't want a working test for their dogs (probably because they wouldn't pass), but I don't think that people who work with their dogs would object too much if they had to do an assessment against the breed standard, as suggested here. Most working dogs fit the breed standard and would pass, so no problems there.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Bijou said:


> ...only if the working world have to have their dogs assessed against their breed standard too


Now this idea I like! It is as important for a working dog to have correct conformation as it is for a show dog to be able to perform the work it is intended to do. What's the use of having an excellent working dog whose is going to be - say - crippled with arthritis - a few years into ts life? Breeding for working ability and nothing else is just as wrong as breeding for looks and nothing else.

For those of you who don't know - and Ifrom the above replies it's obvious that there are some that don't - in the show world in this country the pastoral breeds and (I think, but please correct me if I am wrong) the gundog breeds, cannot reach the status of full champion unless they are also a working champion. If a dog is not also a champion in the working field, it can only be called a Show Champion rather than a Champion.

For example, if Quinny (my border collie) had three challenge certificates under three separate judges his title would be *Show Champion* Spellweaver Mr Nice Guy.

If my friend's staffy had three challenge certificates under three separate judges, her title would be *Champion* Miss X of Z

For Quinny to become *Champion* Spellweaver Mr Nice Guy he would also have to become a champion in sheepdog trials.

So we do distinguish against those dogs who have proven working ability and those who do not, albeit in not such a strict way as the FCI. (Note I say *proven* working ability - I am nowhere near as convinced as the working dog afficionados that show dogs would not be able to work, given the chance and suitable training)


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> Well yes because they want to here. I don't see why they should be forced to do something with their own dog just too compete in something else.
> 
> If show people and working people were just more mindful of what they hell they are doing to dogs, then this conversation wouldn't be necessary.
> 
> I'll never understand why any person doesn't want the best for their own dog and future dogs


Do people dislike the world of showing and what people do to the breeds, most dogs in the the show world are not fit for function, ie the lab being to fat, the start of the decline of the breed, BUT if people have to show their dog can do a days work ( ok granted it would not be as full on as real working, more sports dogs, that working) which could maybe stop the to fat, to big, to short nosed, to extreme, that's not the right thing because your forcing them to do something, or have I interpreted that comment wrong?

Surely this would be in a way forward, to stopping the extremes that are messing up the breeds?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> I don't think that people who work with their dogs would object too much if they had to do an assessment against the breed standard, as suggested here. Most working dogs fit the breed standard and would pass, so no problems there.


HAH !! ...not in my breed


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Bijou said:


> HAH !! ...not in my breed


My Army guard dog was a GSD in the loosest sense of the name hmy:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Vicki said:


> I don't think they'd go for it either. Show people don't want a working test for their dogs (probably because they wouldn't pass).


I don't understand this mentality at all................. I have WORKED dogs most of my working life and I mean work not sport proper work....... I deal with people in showing and working circles, and I know there is a lot of finger pointing from both, but there is also give and take in most rational people.

Who says show people don't want to test their dogs? Again you read what you want, A LOT for people in the Working and Pastoral group are competing in Europe and are bringing lines from Europe for that reason, and guess what they are passing.....

Why is it that people are so anti showing are so unwilling to admit that people are trying to work on improving their breeds, every time something is put up about how they can or will or might try and help the breed the anti's are always they won't or can't....... Christ no change is ever going to be good enough for some... and people wonder why people involved in showing get so frustrated............

It's utterly defeatist, and why I know people are entitled to their own options, their is very little chance of things changing if people are so blinkered in their out look..


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> For those of you who don't know - and Ifrom the above replies it's obvious that there are some that don't - in the show world in this country the pastoral breeds and (I think, but please correct me if I am wrong) the gundog breeds, cannot reach the status of full champion unless they are also a working champion. If a dog is not also a champion in the working field, it can only be called a Show Champion rather than a Champion.


It is the same for gundogs. They become Show Champioins (SH CH) and can only become a full champion CH when they pass a Show Gundog Working Certificate. It's pretty basic, but does show that they can do the basics. The 'working' champions are Field Trial Champions and there is, I believe one Dual Champion (ie both a SH CH and a FT CH) I think it's an HPR, but it hasn't happened in labradors since the 1920s.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> It is the same for gundogs. They become Show Champioins (SH CH) and can only become a full champion CH when they pass a Show Gundog Working Certificate. It's pretty basic, but does show that they can do the basics. The 'working' champions are Field Trial Champions and there is, I believe one Dual Champion (ie both a SH CH and a FT CH) I think it's an HPR, but it hasn't happened in labradors since the 1920s.


But they can still be put froward for BOB's correct, or have I got that wrong lol


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> HAH !! ...not in my breed


What do you mean? Do you mean that they wouldn't be willing to do an assessment against the breed standard? Or do you mean that they wouldn't pass an assessment against the breed standard?

If I recall correctly, we've got the same breed, just different variations of the breed. Here in Sweden people with working BSDs don't have any objections to doing an assessment against the breed standard and I think that most of them pass them as well. However, there are very few working lines of Groenendael, Tervueren and Laekenois.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> It is the same for gundogs. They become Show Champioins (SH CH) and can only become a full champion CH when they pass a Show Gundog Working Certificate. It's pretty basic, but does show that they can do the basics. The 'working' champions are Field Trial Champions and there is, I believe one Dual Champion (ie both a SH CH and a FT CH) I think it's an HPR, but it hasn't happened in labradors since the 1920s.


Isnt the only dual a brittany? I'm sure I read that somewhere, but I might have dreamed it!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Meezey said:


> But they can still be put froward for BOB's correct, or have I got that wrong lol


Do you mean SH Ch ? If so, then yes, the vast majority of gundogs that show never become Ch, the Show Champion title is really considered the same as a Ch in any other breed. The SGWC (show gundog working certificate) is an optional title that allows them to use the title Champion, but makes no difference other than that. I don't show so hopefully someone else will confirm, but although this is the case in the UK, it is not necessarily the case abroad, so you may see a CH overseas gundog that is simply a show champion and doesn't require a working certificate. I believe it varies from country to country



> For Quinny to become Champion Spellweaver Mr Nice Guy he would also have to become a champion in sheepdog trials.


It would appear that this is the main difference. Although some people assume that a CH gundog is a SH CH and a FTCH, it is not the case. That would make them a Dual Champion and there hasn't been one of those for a looong time


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

JAChihuahua said:


> Isnt the only dual a brittany? I'm sure I read that somewhere, but I might have dreamed it!


Could be, I'm pretty sure it was an HPR. I know it would never be a retriever or a spaniel though LOL


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> Do you mean SH Ch ? If so, then yes, the vast majority of gundogs that show never become Ch, the Show Champion title is really considered the same as a Ch in any other breed. The SGWC (show gundog working certificate) is an optional title that allows them to use the title Champion, but makes no difference other than that. I don't show so hopefully someone else will confirm, but although this is the case in the UK, it is not necessarily the case abroad, so you may see a CH overseas gundog that is simply a show champion and doesn't require a working certificate. I believe it varies from country to country


Thanks Phew thought I'd lost the plot then lol What I meant from the thread, is those countries that do make it mandatory that to be considered for BOB you have to have a working Cert too. Would this help to improve the "standard" of the show dogs here if it came in.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Who says show people don't want to test their dogs?


The fact that show people are protesting against the working requirements for the champion title tells me that they don't want to test their dogs. I have also heard opinions like that from people that I have talked to in person. But of course that's not the opinion of everyone, just the majority (or at least the opinion of the people who makes themselves heard). But it's not just something that I've imagined.



Meezey said:


> Why is it that people are so anti showing are so unwilling to admit that people are trying to work on improving their breeds, every time something is put up about how they can or will or might try and help the breed the anti's are always they won't or can't.......


Of course it's great that improvements have been made. But it's still far from good and there's still a lot to discuss.

I don't know what you mean by help the breed? What do you suggest that I'd do? In my opinion I do a lot to help breeds by being involved in carrying out the various mental tests that we do here in Sweden.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Could be, I'm pretty sure it was an HPR. I know it would never be a retriever or a spaniel though LOL


Tournesol Brittanys

There we are! Seems to be a few - knew I had read it somewhere!

I'm sure there are several dual purpose sled dogs too (again memory freeze, cant remember whether mal, husky or otherwise), but these dogs have won in rig and at shows.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I think insisting on any form of working titles has some problems... as others have said not every owner / exhibitor has the time, facilities (eg suitable nearby clubs) or inclination to "work" their dog in its usual field.

Aside from that, many breeds have found their usual "work" changing over the years. Rotties for example have been used not only as guard and protection dogs but drovers and possibly cart pullers. These days they also get used in various sports including obedience and agility, as well as PAT work etc. Why should only the protection work be recognised? Why not an obedience or weight pull dog?

Personally I would prefer "fit for function" to mean able to function properly as DOG. Nothing more, nothing less. 

For example something like the Good Citizens award or the American temperament test would be reasonable evidence of temperament and basic control / obedience. 

Equally important could be a basic fitness test - is the dog able to run without crippling itself or passing out? I'm not talking about speed races or agility level stuff - just a good level of basic fitness. I think it was on last years crufts there was one little dog who couldn't even trot round the ring... that to me flies (or should I say waddles) in the face of "fit for function".

That said I would still put health above all else. I do find it disgusting that dogs can become champions even if they carry and / or suffer from horrendous hereditary disorders that they could pass on to any pups.

But then, I also think puppy buyers are partially responsible in getting the dog they want. If they are only interested in showing their dog then it probably won't matter much to them if their breeder doesn't work their dogs. If they want proof of working ability, temperament, health or anything else then they can find a breeder who can prove of these things too.

Hope that makes some sort of sense!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Vicki said:


> The fact that show people are protesting against the working requirements for the champion title tells me that they don't want to test their dogs. I have also heard opinions like that from people that I have talked to in person. But of course that's not the opinion of everyone, just the majority (or at least the opinion of the people who makes themselves heard). But it's not just something that I've imagined.


People like who? Where are show people protesting? The majority? Where do you speak to this "majority" of show people?



Vicki said:


> Of course it's great that improvements have been made. But it's still far from good and there's still a lot to discuss.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by help the breed? What do you suggest that I'd do? In my opinion I do a lot to help breeds by being involved in carrying out the various mental tests that we do here in Sweden.


I'm not suggesting you do anything, what I meant by the statement was, when anti show people rant on about showing, the standards, the temps, the health, the fitness, you always come back with the same retort when the show people give reasons to why it's changing, or idea's how to change things.. Ie show people won't do it, show people can't do it etc, when there are improvements in breed rather than discuss and help anti's just say "meh so what it's not enough" then you wonder why people in the show world don't want to discuss it and then close ranks and those that do stand up for the show world are the problems..

I'll say again I don't show dogs, so not a show person, but I can see why show people do feel attacked by certain people on here...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Colette said:


> I think insisting on any form of working titles has some problems... as others have said not every owner / exhibitor has the time, facilities (eg suitable nearby clubs) or inclination to "work" their dog in its usual field.
> 
> Aside from that, many breeds have found their usual "work" changing over the years. Rotties for example have been used not only as guard and protection dogs but drovers and possibly cart pullers. These days they also get used in various sports including obedience and agility, as well as PAT work etc. Why should only the protection work be recognised? Why not an obedience or weight pull dog?
> 
> ...


It makes perfect sense, and I agree.

The issue is people will still say " look at those show people ruining a breed, it couldn't work, it's to big, little, fat, stocky " while it might be fit, it will never be fit enough for some... :wink:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Thanks Phew thought I'd lost the plot then lol What I meant from the thread, is those countries that do make it mandatory that to be considered for BOB you have to have a working Cert too. Would this help to improve the "standard" of the show dogs here if it came in.


Probably not, although it depends on what you mean by standard. If you mean their working ability, then, while not a bad thing, the test is so basic that it wouldn't make any impact on the working/trial dogs being bred. And I can't imagine it would have any effect on the heavyweight appearance of the show dogs (in my breed). Interestingly, where this does happen in some of the European countries, particularly where they cannot breed without the appropriate titles/certificates, it has led to a much smaller gene pool and our British working studs are used regularly. As a result of this, many FTCH owners do have a conformation assessment done on their dogs (think it's under FCI from memory).


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I thought most toy breeds were originally bred to be lap dogs - and hand warders for rich women in cold carriages. (May be wrong here). But if so, surely its pretty easy to prove fitness for purpose and I'm not sure what test they'd have to do. 

Breeds such as my own have plenty of/too much at times stamina. But as Pezant said, it would take a lot of traing for them to learn what to do as a working Gundog. 

Now if there were prizes for chasing birds.....


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> But if so, surely its pretty easy to prove fitness for purpose and I'm not sure what test they'd have to do.


And what would they do for the Chow Chow


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I think it is good that there are two 'types' of a lot of breeds as people can choose from the same breed depending on whether they want a higher or lower energy dog.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

BessieDog said:


> I thought most toy breeds were originally bred to be lap dogs - and hand warders for rich women in cold carriages. (May be wrong here). But if so, surely its pretty easy to prove fitness for purpose and I'm not sure what test they'd have to do.
> 
> Breeds such as my own have plenty of/too much at times stamina. But as Pezant said, it would take a lot of traing for them to learn what to do as a working Gundog.
> 
> Now if there were prizes for chasing birds.....


As long as your breed is physically able to do what it was used for then I don't see a problem. It's an issue (to me at least) if there's too much fur/it can't breathe/too heavy etc.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> I thought most toy breeds were originally bred to be lap dogs - and hand warders for rich women in cold carriages. (May be wrong here). But if so, surely its pretty easy to prove fitness for purpose and I'm not sure what test they'd have to do.
> 
> Breeds such as my own have plenty of/too much at times stamina. But as Pezant said, it would take a lot of traing for them to learn what to do as a working Gundog.
> 
> Now if there were prizes for chasing birds.....


Toy Groups, is just a name for Small dogs  they are a mix of companion and dogs that once had a job.. Yorkies were Ratters, Paps are Spaniel types etc  King Charles hunting


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> And what would they do for the Chow Chow


Or a Ridgeback hmy:


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Now this idea I like! It is as important for a working dog to have correct conformation as it is for a show dog to be able to perform the work it is intended to do.


So a white GSD couldn't work? For a Hovawart only 3 colours are accepted in the show world, there are another couple of colours within the breed. You'd stop them from working?

I do agree that most dogs are companion animals rather than working dogs. It should also be noted that many show lines have better temperaments when it comes to living in a family home environment. Working tests aren't really applicable for them. Then again when does the working line/show line stop being the same breed? No don't even want to go there...

I challenge the people who want to test Rhodesian Ridgeback's working ability to be with them for a realistic test for their original purpose


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I'm not sure how it would work with some of the gundog breeds, there's a big difference between trialing and putting in a full days beating on a shoot.
I think we have to accept that in some cases there has been a difference bred into breeds such as mine. I know someone locally who has a show springer, a beautiful gentle chap that does quite well at shows so I'm told. Honestly I wouldn't expect him to work alongside the team of spans' my lads work alongside, it has the most beautiful flowing coat, much longer than my boys, you'd be forever freeing it from brambles, it's bigger than the dogs that I'm used to,longer in the leg, it might struggle getting through and under, cover.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Goblin said:


> So a white GSD couldn't work? For a Hovawart only 3 colours are accepted in the show world, there are another couple of colours within the breed. You'd stop them from working?


A dog fom a merle to merle mating in border collies could also work - but that does not mean you would want to accept or condone that sort of mating. Generally, when specific colours are banned it is because there is some genetic reason - such as the white colour being linked to deafness etc. I don't know whether or not this is true for white GSDs or why (or even what) the colours are that are allowed/not allowed in hovawarts, so I can't comment specifically on those two breeds. In border collies, a lot of colours are allowed, but you still get judges who feel that colours are merely a dilute of black and mark dogs down accordingly.

If colours in breed standards are not linked to health issues, then it is something that should be revised out of them, both for showing and working dogs.



Goblin said:


> I challenge the people who want to test Rhodesian Ridgeback's working ability to be with them for a realistic test for their original purpose


 Good grief - we agree on something


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I would like to see a test introduced for activities suitable to each breed. At the very least all dogs should run for a set distance and negotiate a small obstacle. 
A retriever should retrieve. A pointer should scent. A bulldog... should be at least able to manage a gallop and hold something in his jaws. 
As should a Peke. 
But it won`t happen.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Meezey said:


> Toy Groups, is just a name for Small dogs  they are a mix of companion and dogs that once had a job.. Yorkies were Ratters, Paps are Spaniel types etc  King Charles hunting


Some in the toy group were developed for a working purpose but the main 'job' of many in the toy group has always been lap warmer, flee attracter and companion! Some also had side jobs but those side jobs should not be confused with their main purpose.

Many are derived from the 'comforter' dogs of the 15th and 16th century and their job was just that. Papillons are one of those. So are the Toy Spaniel derivations - the King Charles and the Cavalier King Charles.

The Eastern based breeds - Pekingese and Japanese Chin being two examples - were also developed for the primary purpose of chamber companionship and the landrace these were developed from shares history with the Tibetan Spaniel which is still more moderate in form, but up until the 20th Century this race had both longer finer muzzled version as well. A recent dog brought in from the Monks landrace demonstrates this. His sire was finer longer muzzled.

CC


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Goblin said:


> So a white GSD couldn't work? For a Hovawart only 3 colours are accepted in the show world, there are another couple of colours within the breed. You'd stop them from working?
> 
> I do agree that most dogs are companion animals rather than working dogs. It should also be noted that many show lines have better temperaments when it comes to living in a family home environment. Working tests aren't really applicable for them. Then again when does the working line/show line stop being the same breed? No don't even want to go there...
> 
> *I challenge the people who want to test Rhodesian Ridgeback's working ability to be with them for a realistic test for their original purpose*


I'm out  .


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> Some in the toy group were developed for a working purpose but the main 'job' of many in the toy group has always been lap warmer, flee attracter and companion! Some also had side jobs but those side jobs should not be confused with their main purpose.
> 
> Many are derived from the 'comforter' dogs of the 15th and 16th century and their job was just that. Papillons are one of those. So are the Toy Spaniel derivations - the King Charles and the Cavalier King Charles.
> 
> ...


and Chihuahuas were worshipped - just as it should be 

I still think a certain suitable fitness level should be tested in all breeds, regardless of origin.

Nobody (I hope) is suggesting popping their ridgie in with a lion, or eating a chow chop.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Absolutely Pete. Someone carefully breeds a beautiful, sensitive, gentle cocker who lives happily as a pet and successful show dog, that's fantastic. Why on earth should the dog have to work with the guns to prove his worth? 

Let's take your spanner in the show ring. Do you really want to pamper his coat and take on board what a show judge thinks of him? 

Course not? Horses for courses. 

As for conformation, if the working dogs are tested for healthy conformation as a dog, fine, if it's really necessary. (though whether the show world would be appropriate to judge it would be debatable. ) If it comes down to the perfect angles, colour and shape for a specific breed. Not fine imo.

Are working dogs known for being unhealthy, poorly conformed and suffering early onset arthritis? Or would a working person want a long lived healthy dog to make it worth training him and do his best to make sure that's what he gets? Dunno. Some working horses don't last very long at all due to dubious or downright cruel training practices and people just dump them, or breed them and get another, no idea if anything similar happens with dogs.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

JAChihuahua said:


> and Chihuahuas were worshipped - just as it should be
> 
> I still think a certain suitable fitness level should be tested in all breeds, regardless of origin.
> 
> Nobody (I hope) is suggesting popping their ridgie in with a lion, or eating a chow chop.


I agree that a certain level of fitness is needed. I can't imagine a way to test for it in companion purposed breeds, especially the ones whose traditional temperament is to be a bit self-willed (stubborn) and, as alarm dogs, wary of strangers(Tibbies/Pekes).

CC


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> And what would they do for the Chow Chow


I wouldn't like to see Otter Hounds or Wolfhounds being tested on their original function, either.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

comfortcreature said:


> I agree that a certain level of fitness is needed. I can't imagine a way to test for it in companion purposed breeds, especially the ones whose traditional temperament is to be a bit self-willed (stubborn) and, as alarm dogs, wary of strangers(Tibbies/Pekes).
> 
> CC


Well if those same dogs are happy to be shown, and have various strangers (judges) go over them in the most intimate of ways, I am sure that there must be a soloution out there.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I don't see why someone couldn't design a basic fitness test... 
We already have rally-o and the good citz as scaled down, "diet" versions of basic obedience; why not a scaled down diet version of agility?

Get the dog to run a basic course at a trot, maybe with a couple of baby jumps or a small a-frame. It doesn't have to be competitive - just a pass or fail depending on whether the dog is fit enough to actually move and behave like a dog.

But then I don't believe we should perpetuate dogs that can't breed naturally either. No problem with helping dogs if needed; but when the vast majority of a population can neither mate nor whelp without human and scientific intervention something is wrong IMO. (I approve of the KC stance on multiple C-sections for this reason)


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Colette said:


> I don't see why someone couldn't design a basic fitness test...
> We already have rally-o and the good citz as scaled down, "diet" versions of basic obedience; why not a scaled down diet version of agility?
> 
> Get the dog to run a basic course at a trot, maybe with a couple of baby jumps or a small a-frame. It doesn't have to be competitive - just a pass or fail depending on whether the dog is fit enough to actually move and behave like a dog.
> ...


Absolutely this.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Colette said:


> I don't see why someone couldn't design a basic fitness test...
> We already have rally-o and the good citz as scaled down, "diet" versions of basic obedience; why not a scaled down diet version of agility?
> 
> Get the dog to run a basic course at a trot, maybe with a couple of baby jumps or a small a-frame. It doesn't have to be competitive - just a pass or fail depending on whether the dog is fit enough to actually move and behave like a dog.
> ...


Thanks for offering that. I've had people suggest agility being a 'basic' additional title for companions and my answer is that I would never, ever, choose a companion dog from a line that had the drive to get agility titles. Not my cup of tea (and yes I have participated in agility for the sake of giving it a try - disliked it greatly but I have always disliked competitive and group sports so that was not a surpise). I have found some lines in some specific companion breeds that I like ruined (for my liking) by agility drive.

If people were willing to accept a simple on lead endurance test possibly over a few low jumps etc. (check for heart rate and breathing following) that could always work. I believe dogs should have to at least be able to walk a certain distance without being overly taxed.

I have had people argue over that, however, so have to offer that as only my opinion.

CC


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Dogless said:


> I'm out  .


I'm so disappointed Dogless! I thought you wanted to work your dogs! :smilewinkgrin:


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

This thread has reminded me of something else too...

At one or two shows I've attended I've noticed that there didn't appear to be much in the way of training / communication between some of the dogs and handlers. Many handlers had little control; they were just yanking their dogs around, unable to get their attention let alone get them to stand still or walk / trot on a loose lead round the ring. I've seen a few people smack their dogs over the head too.

Aside from my personal objections to seeing dogs hit and half throttled; it doesn't say much when these were working breeds capable of incredible things.

Considering the anti-dog problems in the UK these days, with so many breeds being demonised, I think a little basic training would go a long way!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> I wouldn't like to see Otter Hounds or Wolfhounds being tested on their original function, either.


Some chow chows were bred for the dinner table - don't want to think how they'd judge that one


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> I'm so disappointed Dogless! I thought you wanted to work your dogs! :smilewinkgrin:


I'm not saying that I'm not brave but....lions and big game in Africa? :crying:.

I know that in Aus and SA some RRs are used for hunting still and in the US there is a big RR lure coursing scene.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Colette said:


> This thread has reminded me of something else too...
> 
> At one or two shows I've attended I've noticed that there didn't appear to be much in the way of training / communication between some of the dogs and handlers. Many handlers had little control; they were just yanking their dogs around, unable to get their attention let alone get them to stand still or walk / trot on a loose lead round the ring. I've seen a few people smack their dogs over the head too.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what shows you've been too - were they breed shows or companion shows? All the dogs I've seen at shows have been very well trained. Bess has been going to weekly training classes for 9 months now and still doesn't come close to most of them!!

Getting a dog to stand is an art, and definitely a partnership with the handler. If the dog doesn't want to stand it won't. Trust me, I'm an expert.

I've never seen anyone hit their dog in the ring - in fact even speaking harshly wouldn't go down too well with the judge so a bit self defeating.

Most of us don't 'yank' our dogs round - that would hardly show off a dog's paces well, and again, not score points with the judge. A lot of dogs are held with the lead behind the ears to keep their heads off the floor - particularly when a breed like the boxer has been shown in the ring just before! 

But then I had better bow to your obvious knowledge and experience after the 'one or two' shows that you've been too. And this is exactly how rumours start, and myth becomes fact.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Colette said:


> This thread has reminded me of something else too...
> 
> At one or two shows I've attended I've noticed that there didn't appear to be much in the way of training / communication between some of the dogs and handlers. Many handlers had little control; they were just yanking their dogs around, unable to get their attention let alone get them to stand still or walk / trot on a loose lead round the ring. I've seen a few people smack their dogs over the head too.
> 
> ...


Again not sure what shows you've been too.. Seeing as Rott's are one of my breeds, you know the ultimate demonised breed, handlers have a lot of control over their dogs ( have you seen the leads rott's are shown on??).. they also use loose leads to move them round the ring... Funnily enough just been looking at the pics from Cruft's on FB with the Rott's stood perfectly totally engaged and locked on to the faces of their handlers.. Beautiful pictures of utter adoration from the dogs :001_wub: Sometimes, just sometimes the boys get a bit up on their toes, but because the handers know what they have on the end of their leads, they know how to handle it, that's a lot of basic training there..... *smh*

I wonder if I've been going to all these dogs shows on a different planet


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> But then I had better bow to your obvious knowledge and experience after the 'one or two' shows that you've been too. And this is exactly how rumours start, and myth becomes fact.


Bessiedog - jesus sorry I spoke!! 
I was only saying what I have seen on a couple of occassions. I'm certainly not trying to make myths into facts or any other such nonsense. I have absolutely nothing against the show scene and I am not suggesting that you or anyone else engages in this behaviour except those few individuals I witnessed. No need to get so defensive!

I am NOT suggesting that all show folk are like this; I simply stated that I'd witnessed some stuff I would rather not have.

I saw one dog hit at crufts 2012 (it was in one of the breed rings but not actually in the middle of judging - maybe preparing I don't know). One was at one of the DD stands at either crufts or DD in London I can't remember which. The third was at a breed show, whilst waiting to go in the ring. All 3 were hit across the head and I won't deny I was disgusted.

I also saw a fair amount of yanking, minimal in the ring but most outside of it before or after they'd been in the ring.

Again, I haven't said ALL handlers are like this - not even most - just some. And I wasn't impressed. It doesn't do themselves, their breeds or the showing world any favours.

All three breeds were in the working group. Given that this thread is about proving working ability etc I thought it relevent; I was shocked that some handlers had so little control without resorting to yanking and smacking.

Don't get me wrong, the majority were fine and were a joy to watch, but those few did put me off a bit.

Your rant about my "obvious knowledge and experience" is frankly offensive. I have never claimed to be an expert on the show scene - I'm just saying what I saw. And what several other members of the public must also have seen. :cursing:


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

If you are going to ask dogs to be judged on their original purpose then German Shepherds must be judged on their ability to herd and protect sheep. No more, no less.

Labradors? Jumping into the water and retrieving fish (that's what they did originally in Labrador)

Poodles? Water dog retrievers.

Dachshunds? Yep, let's go badger hunting.

It's a dumb requirement and panders only to those few people who like to play at their own particular sport. The vast majority of dogs are pets. Their function now is as companion animals. By all means test that - because if they are going to be 'fit for function' then they shouldn't be aggressive, or trained to be aggressive. I have a real problem with the stupid GSD rules in Germany where a level of testing is required that may have zero reference to the dog's main purpose. After all, if you were blind would you want a guide dog that might attack someone who approached you? (And please don't let any of the proponents of this lunacy tell me that they are so well trained they wouldn't do so.)


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

JAChihuahua said:


> I rather like that idea!
> 
> I would like to see working dogs (those who compete) needing to at least fit within a minimum of the breed standard in order to get the top accolades, and I would like all dogs to be required to pass a minimum level of fitness and stamina (appropriate to the breed and its original purposes).


But on the continent many breeds have to meet both working and conformation criteria.

For example, in Weimaraners and other gundog breeds they have to pass tests to demonstrate their hunting, pointing and retrieving ability before they can even be registered with the breed club.

In GSD dogs cannot be bred from until and unless they have both a working and conformation qualification.

There is what is called a Koerung and the dog is classified as either Recommended for Breeding or Suitable for Breeding (KK1, KK2) or unclassified.

There are similar tests for other working breeds.

As the GSD was not developed SOLELY for herding sheep it makes sense that it is still tested under the IPO system as, like other tests, this measures temperament during the whole of the three sections.

Then there is the AD where dogs demonstrate their fitness and stamina by trotting beside a bike for 21 kms.

For the misinformed IPO is not about training dogs to be aggressive..............

If it were then how come dogs like mine can be handled by complete strangers in the show ring and have his teeth, tattoo and testicles examine by another strange person.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bijou said:


> well now ..... I have a problem with what people define as 'work' .....in my book only a tiny fraction of dogs REALLY work ( Search and rescue, Military, Police, Shepherding and Guide dogs come to mind ) all the rest are really simply taking part in their owners hobby ...and these are surely of no more intrinsic value than anyone else's ..so ..if I have to 'prove' my show BSD by having them hang off a padded sleeve ( as in the hobby of Schutzhund ) then why on earth can't their dogs 'prove' their quality by taking part in my hobby ?...
> 
> and the gene pool arguement works both ways


But some dogs do both do they not?

For example BSD Malinois bitch Jotunheim Alma CDex UDex WDex was the only BSD at Crufts this year with any sort of working qualification (according to the catalogue).


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> It is the same for gundogs. They become Show Champioins (SH CH) and can only become a full champion CH when they pass a Show Gundog Working Certificate. It's pretty basic, but does show that they can do the basics. The 'working' champions are Field Trial Champions and there is, I believe one Dual Champion (ie both a SH CH and a FT CH) I think it's an HPR, but it hasn't happened in labradors since the 1920s.


I think you will find that you are wrong. 

For example Terry Hadley's GWP Benreeda Wolfgang at Jacinta was both a WT Ch and a Sh Ch.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Vicki said:


> What do you mean? Do you mean that they wouldn't be willing to do an assessment against the breed standard? Or do you mean that they wouldn't pass an assessment against the breed standard?
> 
> If I recall correctly, we've got the same breed, just different variations of the breed. Here in Sweden people with working BSDs don't have any objections to doing an assessment against the breed standard and I think that most of them pass them as well. However, there are very few working lines of Groenendael, Tervueren and Laekenois.


The same is true in the UK.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> For the misinformed IPO is not about training dogs to be aggressive..............
> 
> If it were then how come dogs like mine can be handled by complete strangers in the show ring and have his teeth, tattoo and testicles examine by another strange person.


I worked Army guard dogs so slightly different, they wouldn't have accepted the above, because they weren't trained to, although arm true dogs were slightly more tolerant than the old style "war dogs"  but that said most Police dogs will, hence rehoming to families once their time working lives are up


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> For Quinny to become *Champion* Spellweaver Mr Nice Guy he would also have to become a champion in sheepdog trials.


Really? I thought to gain the Champion title a Border Collie must only pass the KC Herding Test?

Or am I mistaken?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I worked Army guard dogs so slightly different, they wouldn't have accepted the above, because they weren't trained to, although arm true dogs were slightly more tolerant than the old style "war dogs"  but that said most Police dogs will, hence rehoming to families once their time working lives are up


There is slight difference in "civil" or "non compliance" dogs which are trained to apprehend people anywhere rather than PAT dogs (Patrol Arm True), having said that I know of several Obedience Champions in the UK (who have not been trained for protection work) who have appalling temperaments but have been trained for the temperament test...........


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

Elles said:


> Absolutely Pete. Someone carefully breeds a beautiful, sensitive, gentle cocker who lives happily as a pet and successful show dog, that's fantastic. Why on earth should the dog have to work with the guns to prove his worth?
> 
> Let's take your spanner in the show ring. Do you really want to pamper his coat and take on board what a show judge thinks of him?
> 
> ...


Not amongst the group of guys I know, and certainly not in my dogs case. All my dogs have been retired as soon as I see signs of it getting too much for them. If you know your dog you know when it's time to call a halt and let them rest on their laurels. As for my dogs in a show ring?? I doubt either my retreiver or my spaniel would meet the strict requirements set out by the K.C. My retriever would probably be deemed to be too dark, and possibly too big boned. My spaniel?? Well he'd be a complete pain in the butt in a show enviromemt, he gets bored very quickly.......


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I think you will find that you are wrong.
> 
> For example Terry Hadley's GWP Benreeda Wolfgang at Jacinta was both a WT Ch and a Sh Ch.


Working Trials are a completely different discipline to Field Trials as I'm sure you are aware. While commendable, a WT Ch is not relevant to a gundog breed when considering working abilities - as they are 'gundogs', field trials are the relevant discipline. 
(although, I did say it would be an HPR  - you won't find one amongst retrievers or spaniels)


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Really? I thought to gain the Champion title a Border Collie must only pass the KC Herding Test?
> 
> Or am I mistaken?


That is another way, yes.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Toller people are trying to come up with a tolling test like in some European countries, but finding a venue will be difficult!

Toller temperament testing in Norway, a bit extreme! They also do the tolling test in Norway.
Toller temperament testing (part one, two more to follow) - YouTube
Toller temperament testing in Norway 2012 - YouTube
Toller temperament testing. - YouTube
Toller Temperament Testing - YouTube


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Working Trials are a completely different discipline to Field Trials as I'm sure you are aware. While commendable, a WT Ch is not relevant to a gundog breed when considering working abilities - as they are 'gundogs', field trials are the relevant discipline.
> (although, I did say it would be an HPR  - you won't find one amongst retrievers or spaniels)


Whether it is relevant to gundog work is immaterial, I was responding to the assertion that there had only been one dual champion.

However as someone who is familiar with both disciplines I can say that the requirements for both are the same.

Both FT and WT require dogs to:

quarter/search to find game/articles.
Air/Ground scent
Retrieve
Be sent away
directional control
negotiate obstacles
walk nicely to heel
be steady to shot
Stay in one place for considerable time

The qualities that make for good FT dogs are the same for WT, this is why we have so many WT Ch in gundog breeds, particularly Labradors! 

So not COMPLETELY different as you appear to think.

HTH


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Whether it is relevant to gundog work is immaterial, I was responding to the assertion that there had only been one dual champion.
> 
> However as someone who is familiar with both disciplines I can say that the requirements for both are the same.
> 
> ...





> I was responding to the assertion that there had only been one dual champion.


I don't think I said there has only been one dual champion - why would I when I can name many. What I said was that I think there was one dual champion that I was aware of (and it was, from memory, an HPR - it certainly wouldn't have been my breed because they haven't had a dual champion labrador for nearly a century)

However, I think you're missing the point. I'm aware there are many labradors doing Working Trials (I know a few that used to do them and have moved over to gundog work). However, the thread was about how to have working tests for show dogs. These already exist in gundogs - Field Trials. 



> Both FT and WT require dogs to:
> 
> quarter/search to find game/articles.
> Air/Ground scent
> ...


I'm sure there are many areas that cross over between the different disciplines and yes, there are similarities, but they are not the test of a gundog as Field Trials are, and demonstrates those traits that are also included in the breed standard - retrieving game with a soft mouth, no noise, entering water etc. I put it on another post, but Field Trials are the working equivalent of showing. They are breed/type specific and require a dog to be registered on KC breed register. Working Trials are open to any breed/crossbreed so while a testing discipline in itself, is not a breed relevant test of working ability in the same way as Field Trials are.

Just to illustrate and perhaps help your understanding....
A SH CH gundog can become a full CH only by proving it's working ability. It can do this by taking the SWGC (show working gundog certificate) the GWC (gundog working certificate) or getting an award in a Field Trial (any award at any level). They CANNOT get their CH status by any award in a Working Trial or any other working discipline - for the simple reason they do not test the gundog working ability.

HTH


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I don't think I said there has only been one dual champion - why would I when I can name many. What I said was that I think there was one dual champion that I was aware of (and it was, from memory, an HPR - it certainly wouldn't have been my breed because they haven't had a dual champion labrador for nearly a century)
> 
> However, I think you're missing the point. I'm aware there are many labradors doing Working Trials (I know a few that used to do them and have moved over to gundog work). However, the thread was about how to have working tests for show dogs. These already exist in gundogs - Field Trials.
> 
> I'm sure there are many areas that cross over between the different disciplines and yes, there are similarities, but they are not the test of a gundog as Field Trials are, and demonstrates those traits that are also included in the breed standard - retrieving game with a soft mouth, no noise, entering water etc. I put it on another post, but Field Trials are the working equivalent of showing. They are breed/type specific and require a dog to be registered on KC breed register. Working Trials are open to any breed/crossbreed so while a testing discipline in itself, is not a breed relevant test of working ability in the same way as Field Trials are.


Yes I am fully aware of the tests required in FT, I do sit on a Gundog Breed Club committee. 

I am also fully aware of what exercises FT consist of.

I am also fully aware that only KC registered dogs on the BREED register are eligible to compete in FT and GWT.

I am sure I AM missing YOUR point, but I was more interested in MINE. 

Which was I was aware of more than one dual champion and used that particular breed as an example.

I am aware of several more eg the Gordon Setter Amscot Irresista Belle to name but one.........


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I am sure I AM missing YOUR point, but I was more interested in MINE.


 Ah... that's fine then - I'll remember next time 



> Which was I was aware of more than one dual champion and used that particular breed as an example.


But in gundogs, a WT CH and a SH CH would not be considered a dual champion. What can I say - we're an insular lot


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Ah... that's fine then - I'll remember next time
> 
> But in gundogs, a WT CH and a SH CH would not be considered a dual champion. What can I say - we're an insular lot


How bizarre when the term Dual Champion refers to many disciplines and is the terminology the KC use eg Suzanne Jaffa's and Kathy Ingham's dual champions (Ob Ch and WT Ch).

Just demonstrates that the interpretation of a term by a particular body may not be that of the generalist.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Now this idea I like! It is as important for a working dog to have correct conformation as it is for a show dog to be able to perform the work it is intended to do. What's the use of having an excellent working dog whose is going to be - say - crippled with arthritis - a few years into ts life? Breeding for working ability and nothing else is just as wrong as breeding for looks and nothing else.
> 
> For those of you who don't know - and Ifrom the above replies it's obvious that there are some that don't - in the show world in this country the pastoral breeds and (I think, but please correct me if I am wrong) the gundog breeds, cannot reach the status of full champion unless they are also a working champion. If a dog is not also a champion in the working field, it can only be called a Show Champion rather than a Champion.
> 
> ...


The part in bold is slightly misleading. The dog would NOT have to become a champion in sheepdog trials at all - but would need to pass a much watered down version of a basic sheepdog trial, ie a KC Herding Test.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I think it is good that there are two 'types' of a lot of breeds as people can choose from the same breed depending on whether they want a higher or lower energy dog.


I agree with this to an extent

In an ideal world if a prospective owner did not want to work with the drives, intelligence, energy levels etc of a working breed, they would choose a different breed. One that would suit their lifestyle.

As we know, this is a far from ideal world and many people tend to choose a dog based purely on the aesthetics, with little thought given to what original jobs various breeds were created to do.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Moobli said:


> The part in bold is slightly misleading. The dog would NOT have to become a champion in sheepdog trials at all - but would need to pass a much watered down version of a basic sheepdog trial, ie a KC Herding Test.


Perhaps you didn't read my later post where Smokeybear asked me about this and I answered in the affirmative


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Moobli said:


> I agree with this to an extent
> 
> In an ideal world if a prospective owner did not want to work with the drives, intelligence, energy levels etc of a working breed, they would choose a different breed. One that would suit their lifestyle.
> 
> As we know, this is a far from ideal world and many people tend to choose a dog based purely on the aesthetics, with little thought given to what original jobs various breeds were created to do.


I'm tired so I've probably missed something here - but are you really advocating that in an ideal world no-one would have a dog from the pastoral, working, gundog, terrier and most of the utility breeds as a pet? That in an ideal world the only people priviledged to be able to own a dog from one of these breeds should be someone who needs them to do a job of work?


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm tired so I've probably missed something here - but are you really advocating that in an ideal world no-one would have a dog from the pastoral, working, gundog, terrier and most of the utility breeds as a pet? That in an ideal world the only people priviledged to be able to own a dog from one of these breeds should be someone who needs them to do a job of work?


The simple fact is that most 'working' dog lines aren't full of 'working' dogs at all. Any more than pastoral dogs are all shepherd or cattle herders. If people do use dogs to work - fine. If they want to delude themselves by thinking that some sport (such as Schutzhund) makes their dog equivalent to a properly trained working dog - fine. But the vast majority of work that dogs so is to lie on their owners' sofas.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

No of course a Schutzhund trained dog (or one in Working Trials, Mondioring, Belgian Ring, French Ring, Pistage, Campagne) is not the equivalent to a properly trained working dog.

They tend to be a lot better, a lot more controlled as anyone who watches police dog tv programmes can tell. 

I think you are the one that is deluded Mr Ross but then that comes from never achieving any sort of worthwhile qualification in any field I think 

Never mind, we cannot wait until the dogs you like breeding fill all the podium slots at not only the above but of course Police Dog Trials, NASDU trials etc etc

Cos if we did, we would be dead............. ROFLMAO


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

AlbertRoss said:


> The simple fact is that most 'working' dog lines aren't full of 'working' dogs at all. Any more than pastoral dogs are all shepherd or cattle herders. If people do use dogs to work - fine. If they want to delude themselves by thinking that some sport (such as Schutzhund) makes their dog equivalent to a properly trained working dog - fine.* But the vast majority of work that dogs so is to lie on their owners' sofas.*


Well, not having your crystal ball that obviously enables you to see into the living room of everyone in the land (I'm assuming you have one otherwise how could you justify such a sweeping generalisation?) I would have to say that some dogs - regardless of breed - will be couch potatoes and some won't.

However, that still doesn't answer the question I posed Moobli - ie whether or not she is really advocating that unless we actually want a dog to do a job of work - ie if we only want a dog as a pet, or a companion - we should not choose a dog from the working, pastoral, gundog, terrier, utility or hound group, but only choose a dog from the toy group.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Not sure I am comfortable with that idea, that implies you only want to play with your dog............


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Not sure I am comfortable with that idea, that implies you only want to play with your dog............


Well, this is why I'm questioning Moobli's post - whether or not she really did mean that.

Having two different pastoral breeds myself - both different in their energy levels and needs, but all happy and healthy and well-adjusted - I can't agree with her on that one.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> No of course a Schutzhund trained dog (or one in Working Trials, Mondioring, Belgian Ring, French Ring, Pistage, Campagne) is not the equivalent to a properly trained working dog.


Precisely



> They tend to be a lot better, a lot more controlled as anyone who watches police dog tv programmes can tell.


Delusional. Would I put a trained police dog up against a Shitshund dog. You bet. The police dog would embarrass the Shitshund.



> I think you are the one that is deluded Mr Ross but then that comes from never achieving any sort of worthwhile qualification in any field I think


Appalling stupidity. You have no idea of my qualifications.



> Never mind, we cannot wait until the dogs you like breeding fill all the podium slots at not only the above but of course Police Dog Trials, NASDU trials etc etc


I wouldn't let my dogs take part in artificial events designed solely to boost the egos of their owners, which bear absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the purpose of the dog.



> Cos if we did, we would be dead............. ROFLMAO


And that might mean we'd miss your incisive wit, charm and intelligence. Or not. I think the second is much more likely.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I wouldn't let my dogs take part in artificial events designed solely to boost the egos of their owners, which bear absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the purpose of the dog.


Well, that certainly doesn't apply to working gundogs!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm tired so I've probably missed something here - but are you really advocating that in an ideal world no-one would have a dog from the pastoral, working, gundog, terrier and most of the utility breeds as a pet? That in an ideal world the only people priviledged to be able to own a dog from one of these breeds should be someone who needs them to do a job of work?


I'm not Moobli, but I can answer with my opinion. My opinion is that there should be breeds that no one should own unless they needed it for actual work or for a hobby/sport that is equal to actual work.

That doesn't necessarily mean that no pastoral, terrier, gun dog breeds etc. can be pets (most of them already are), but for those who want to work with their dogs there should be breeds suitable for it. There is no need for all breeds that once had a job to do to do that same job and there is no harm in making pets out of some of those breeds. But there is still need for some breeds to do a job.

My breed, the Mali, is used world wide as police dogs, military dogs etc. Those who doesn't work for the police, army etc. often participate in sports such as Schutzhund, IPO etc, which are not the same as for example real police work. But the traits that are necessary for a good police dog are tested in those sports and that keeps the traits intact and ensures that there will be dogs suitable for work in the future as well.

Dogs with those traits are not easy dogs to handle and if you want a simple and uncomplicated dog- don't get a Mali! Leave the Mali for people that wants to work, whether it's real work or "hobby work". There are hundreds of different breeds to choose from if you want a pet- don't try to change the few breeds that still are suitable for work into pets.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

AlbertRoss said:


> Would I put a trained police dog up against a Shitshund dog. You bet. The police dog would embarrass the Shitshund.
> 
> *I am afraid not, some of us have seen too many police dogs embarrased by Competition Dogs. Really are you completely unable to use the correct terminology as WELL as the correct type of dog. *
> 
> ...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> I'm not Moobli, but I can answer with my opinion. My opinion is that there should be breeds that no one should own unless they needed it for actual work or for a hobby/sport that is equal to actual work.


See, I would agree with this - but then that is not what Moobli seemed to be saying.

If you take on a high maintenance breed then you should be prepared to give it the stimulus it requires, otherwise you are heading for touble and it will be the dog that suffers. However. that stimulus does not necessarily mean the dog should work - there are many other ways to fulfil the needs of these breeds and keep them happy and healthy and well-adjusted.



Vicki said:


> That doesn't necessarily mean that no pastoral, terrier, gun dog breeds etc. can be pets (most of them already are), but for those who want to work with their dogs there should be breeds suitable for it. There is no need for all breeds that once had a job to do to do that same job and there is no harm in making pets out of some of those breeds.
> There are hundreds of different breeds to choose from if you want a pet- don't try to change *the few breeds *that still are suitable for work into pets.


This doesn't make sense. You seem to be arguing that some working breeds can be pets, but some can't. Why? Either the argument holds for all, or for none. How can you choose which "few breeds" other than arbitrarily?

For example - you mention the malinois. I have friends who own malinois and who show them, but don't work them in any other way - and they are among the happiest, most well-adjusted dogs I know - wonderful pets. Why should you want to prevent this happening?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

> I have friends who own malinois and who show them, but don't work them in any other way - and they are among the happiest, most well-adjusted dogs I know


yep ! - a Malinois is simply a variety of the Belgian Shepherd Dog and should have the same characteristics as the other three varieties all of whom make great active family pets



> There are hundreds of different breeds to choose from if you want a pet- don't try to change the few breeds that still are suitable for work into pets.


...and equally don't change the temperament of a herding breed to make it more competitive at hanging off a padded sleeve especially if this then makes them unsuitable as pets


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Well there are show/pet Malinois and those bred to work, they are two very different animals............... 

But of course the working ones also make great pets as exemplified by Jotunheim Janus at Crufts who was one of the Friends for Life contenders. In fact Helen Bull wrote about how Dan, his handler, said what a great pet his police dog was in her breed notes last week. 

Now that the dog is retired at 10, he will stay at home in the house as a pet.

A dog bred by the top working line Malinois breeder in the UK.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> This doesn't make sense. You seem to be arguing that some working breeds can be pets, but some can't. Why? Either the argument holds for all, or for none. How can you choose which "few breeds" other than arbitrarily?
> 
> For example - you mention the malinois. I have friends who own malinois and who show them, but don't work them in any other way - and they are among the happiest, most well-adjusted dogs I know - wonderful pets. Why should you want to prevent this happening?


All breeds can be made into pets if you breed in a way that you remove all or most of the traits that make the breed difficult to own. That way you get an easy, uncomplicated pet, but it is also useless for work. This has already happened to most breeds that once had a job to do. And that's okay, because we don't need as many working dogs anymore and it's good that some breeds can get a new job as pets.

But not all dogs that have had a job in the past have become useless for work, mostly because they still have jobs and/or there's a sport that's equivalent to that job that preserves the necessary traits. And it's my opinion that those breeds should stay that way, i.e able to perform a job and/or a sport.

I want the Malinois to continue to be a working breed. There are few breeds as suitable for police and military work as the Malinois and if all Malis were like your friends Malis, the breed would become useless for that kind of work. And that would be a shame, because there's is a great need for dogs that can do that kind of work. If the Malis were made into pets and show dogs with no traits that make them suitable for work, what dogs would perform that job? The most used breed for that kind of work is still the German Shepherd, but the situation with them is similar. Breeding for them to be pets and show dogs makes them useless for work (and have given them health problems) and it's difficult for the police to find suitable dogs. That is why the Malinois has become more and more popular for that kind of work. If the Malinois is ruined by being bred for as pets and show dogs, what breed do you suggest that the police should use?


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> yep ! - a Malinois is simply a variety of the Belgian Shepherd Dog and should have the same characteristics as the other three varieties all of whom make great active family pets


Yes, they should have the same characteristics as the other varieties. But unfortunately I think that the other varieties are permanently ruined (well, maybe not the Laekenois) and that the Malinois is the only variety of the Belgian Shepherd that can be saved as a working dog.



Bijou said:


> ...and equally don't change the temperament of a herding breed to make it more competitive at hanging off a padded sleeve especially if this then makes them unsuitable as pets


What has changed the temperament of the Belgian Shepherd, at least two of the varieties, is show breeding. The Belgian Shepherd dog had the traits necessary for police and military work from start- why else do you think that they started using them?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Vicki said:


> Yes, they should have the same characteristics as the other varieties. But unfortunately I think that the other varieties are permanently ruined (well, maybe not the Laekenois) and that the Malinois is the only variety of the Belgian Shepherd that can be saved as a working dog.
> 
> What has changed the temperament of the Belgian Shepherd, at least two of the varieties, is show breeding. The Belgian Shepherd dog had the traits necessary for police and military work from start- why else do you think that they started using them?


True, they were used at military dogs circa 100 years ago, it is hardly something new (apart from the UK)


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

what arrogance - are you really saying that the many thousands of BSD breeders around the world are all doing it wrong ? - that only the tiny section who produce dogs for the miltary and for sports than involve bite work are doing it right ?

since when has the Maligator been the 5th variety of BSD ?

here is what the Malinois and the three other varieties of BSD were originally bred for

*The history of the Belgian Shepherd Dog*

*When the inhabitants of Europe began to breed sheep and wandered through the wide open spaces with their great flocks, they had a true and hard-working friend by their sides to help them keep the flocks together and protect them, the Shepherd Dog. Depending on the region this dog was larger or smaller. So in regions where wolves or even bears had to be borne in mind as enemies of the sheep the dog was big and strong so that he could do battle against these sheepstealers. Mostly, however, he was of medium size with shaggy hair to protect him against harm from the weather.

Towards the end of the 19th century there lived in Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, Hungary, etc. huge flocks of sheep, cared for by shepherds with their dogs. This was the era in which little by little the customary breeds of shepherd´s and herdsmand´s dogs as we know them today became crystallised. In Germany the German Shepherd Dog, in France the Briard, Picard, Beauceron and in those southerly regions by the Spanish frontier the Pyrenean Mountain Dogs, in Italy the Maremma, in Hungary the Puli, the Kuvasz, etc.

The shepherds in Belgian countries kept at that time a rather smaller shepherd dog about 50 to 55 cm high which ate little and did not weigh 20 Kg. These dogs were very high spirited and circled their flocks unceasingly with tireless movement, always ready to defend their trust against all and sundry. They were devoted to the shepherds but suspicious of strangers and held back from them.

The head of this shepherd dog was rather similar to that of the wild dog or wolf, only the fangs were less strong and somewhat more pointed. The ears were small and triangular, set high and often carried slightly forward. The eyes were dark, slightly almond shaped, the expression lively, intelligent and very attentive. The body was squarish and the bone structure light. Its gait was dancing and its movement regular. A lively fellow, happy, persevering and economical.

Professor Reul of the Veterinary Institute in Cureghem occupied himself a great deal with this Shepherd Dog type and on the 15th November 1891 called together the herdsmen and owners of such dogs in order to express and opinion on the dogs. Over 100 dogs were then brought before him. The colours of these dogs were very varied, from black to grey or brown in all shades and the coats were just as varied. There were long-haired, rough-haired and short-haired. Nevertheless the long-haired were mostly black, seldom brown or of odd colour, the rough-haired were mostly greyish and the short-haired were for the most part brown or beige, maily with a dark mask. Professor Reul told these owners what he proposed as the ideal type and recommended them only to mate those of the same coat type together, without regard to the colour. Thus amateurs and herdsmen bred for eight years according to his advice and also according to their judgement. Then the Club for Belgian Shepherd Dogs was formed and the shepherd dog of that time chosen as the National Dog. However, the newly drawn up standard, against the wish of Professor Reul, only allowed further breeding with long-haired blacks, short-haired red-browns and rough-haired greys. But the owners of brown or grey long-haired, brown rough-haired or black and grey short-haired were not agreeable that they suddenly might not breed from their dogs and founded a dissident club which was very active and productive. This Club was affiliated to the Belgian Kennel Club, forerunner of the Societe Royale St.Hubert. Each Club ran its own breed register. However, after a couple of years all breeders combined again and it was decided that breeding should take place in the following breed types:
- BLACK, long-haired with the name GROENENDAEL
- RED-BROWN, long-haired with dark overlay with the name TERVUEREN
- RED-BROWN, short-haired with the name MALINOIS
- GREY or RED-BROWN, rought-haired with the name LAEKEN

The different varieties were named after the villages round Brussel as most of the breeders lived there at that time. *


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Here is another bit of history for you.

Afer the abolition of police dogs in Belgium, more than a century passed before public administration resumed the use of dogs in police service. It was about *1880* that dog enthusiasts around the Belgian City of Maline started to systematically train their Malinois for protection and tracking work. But it was not until *1886* that the dog was especially trained for police service.

In the Belgian town of Gent it was Superintendent Van Wezemael who broughtg about the introduction of three police dogs in March *1899*. At the end of the same year there were already 10 dogs and in *1910* more than 30.

The police dog of today is the natural development of the herding of dog of yesterday as those peculiarities and aptitidues which enable a dog to succeed in one of these services are equally valuable in another (the same argument I put forward re gundogs in Working Trials).

The animals urge to guard and protect. so essential to the preservation of a flock of sheep, is just as valuable in the police service.

So despite the protestations of some breeders of BSD in the UK, (_who appear to be totally unaware of the history of the breed's development as a police dog over a century ago on their country of origin_) we can see that in actual fact the reality is somewhat different than that which they like to portray.

Also, as Jotunheim Janus demonstrated, it is perfectly feasible to have a Working Bred Malinois that is not only at the top of his game in this area but which is eminently suitable as a pet.

Yet another working bred Malinois Jotunheim Alma was in the breed ring at Crufts having qualified for entry via the show route and who a week later qualified PD (Patrol Dog) Open and being placed 2nd.

And of course there are several working bred Malinois competing with some success in Obedience in the UK, Jotunheim Just the One winning a ticket (CC) and they have to pass a temperament test. This is the first Malinois to win a CC in Obedience.

WT Ch Jotunheim VIP CDex UDex WDex TDex PDex is the first Malinois to become a WT Ch in the UK.

There are plenty more examples from this kennel and others which demonstrate the lie to the accusation that Working Bred Malinois have poor temperaments or worse..........

It just suits some people to put out propaganda to the contrary.

Yes there are disreputable breeders of BSD, but they exist in both pet/show and working lines.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't see any reason why gudogs can't and shouldn't be proven, or any breed where their original purpose still exists and is not considered inhumane, some breeds obviously were bred for a purpose that in today's society is no longer deemed acceptable.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Vicki said:


> All breeds can be made into pets if you breed in a way that you remove all or most of the traits that make the breed difficult to own. That way you get an easy, uncomplicated pet, but it is also useless for work. This has already happened to most breeds that once had a job to do. And that's okay, because we don't need as many working dogs anymore and it's good that some breeds can get a new job as pets.
> 
> But not all dogs that have had a job in the past have become useless for work, mostly because they still have jobs and/or there's a sport that's equivalent to that job that preserves the necessary traits. And it's my opinion that those breeds should stay that way, i.e able to perform a job and/or a sport.
> 
> I want the Malinois to continue to be a working breed. There are few breeds as suitable for police and military work as the Malinois and if all Malis were like your friends Malis, the breed would become useless for that kind of work. And that would be a shame, because there's is a great need for dogs that can do that kind of work. If the Malis were made into pets and show dogs with no traits that make them suitable for work, what dogs would perform that job? The most used breed for that kind of work is still the German Shepherd, but the situation with them is similar. Breeding for them to be pets and show dogs makes them useless for work (and have given them health problems) and it's difficult for the police to find suitable dogs. That is why the Malinois has become more and more popular for that kind of work. If the Malinois is ruined by being bred for as pets and show dogs, what breed do you suggest that the police should use?


Wow what complete and utter snobbery!!! Do you know I have utter respect for people who work their dogs, would love to still be able too, would love to get a dog and work it for sport!! But let's get one thing straight you have a "sport" a "hobby" that's all you don't work your dog you have a hobby that's nice for you and the dog! If you don't want to ruin a breed then you leave it to the people who do REAL jobs of value with dogs! I really don't want to offend any other sports dog handlers here because as I said if I could I would be doing it, and I do understand working lines! But to see such arrogance from a sports handler makes my blood boil!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Here is another bit of history for you.
> 
> Afer the abolition of police dogs in Belgium, more than a century passed before public administration resumed the use of dogs in police service. It was about *1880* that dog enthusiasts around the Belgian City of Maline started to systematically train their Malinois for protection and tracking work. But it was not until *1886* that the dog was especially trained for police service.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right.

I found this interesting article from 1928 about training police dogs in Belgium http://www.bsca.info/history/ghent/ghent.pdf

In that article it says that "Regardless of the fact that the Belgian sheepdog is a farm dog, there is no questioning the fact that it can be trained to become an ideal police dog."

This paragraph from the article also shows that Belgian Shepherds were suitable for police work early on:
"The first serious attempt at complete training of Belgian sheepdogs is usually credited to M. Van Wesemil, the chief police commissioner of Ghent, Belgium. After trying various breeds, he selected the sheepdogs, of which he used several varieties, such as the Belgian, French and Russian." (although I have to admit that I'm not sure what the French and Russian varieties are; perhaps French is the Briard)

Protection work is not something new to the Belgian Shepherd either:
"The persistence with which the Belgian shepherd dog will stand by his master is worthy of note."

"Though prevented by the muzzle from seizing such aggressors, they will spring again and again at them, throwing themselves against the chest with sufficient force to knock down the strongest man. A fifty-pound dog, well trained, can easi1y throw a powerful man while on the run."

And OT, this article is also very interesting to read if you want to see how far we have come regarding dog training.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Bijou said:


> what arrogance - are you really saying that the many thousands of BSD breeders around the world are all doing it wrong ? - that only the tiny section who produce dogs for the miltary and for sports than involve bite work are doing it right ?
> 
> since when has the Maligator been the 5th variety of BSD ?
> 
> ...


Thank you very much, but I already know the history of my breed.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Wow what complete and utter snobbery!!! Do you know I have utter respect for people who work their dogs, would love to still be able too, would love to get a dog and work it for sport!! But let's get one thing straight you have a "sport" a "hobby" that's all you don't work your dog you have a hobby that's nice for you and the dog! If you don't want to ruin a breed then you leave it to the people who do REAL jobs of value with dogs! I really don't want to offend any other sports dog handlers here because as I said if I could I would be doing it, and I do understand working lines! But to see such arrogance from a sports handler makes my blood boil!


Oh, I forgot to say.

WT Ch Jotunheim VIP CDex UDex WDex TDex PDex was also, not only a sports (hobby) dog, but an operational police dog. 

Winning the Service Dog of the Year Award for a record 5 times and winning the police dog competetition held at the now defunct All About Dogs Show at Brentwood twice. 

So a REAL dog doing REAL work as well as SPORTS!

Amazing eh?

There are lot of other examples in other breeds in other disciplines.

So feel free to boil your blood love, I can reel off lots of dogs which do REAL work (whatever your personal definition of this is) AND compete in sports.

HTH


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Oh, I forgot to say.
> 
> WT Ch Jotunheim VIP CDex UDex WDex TDex PDex was also, not only a sports (hobby) dog, but an operational police dog.
> 
> ...


I was talking about one sports dog handler not all or is Vicki going to surprise me and tell me her and her dog are operational!! Or did you make the comment that only people who "work" their dogs should be allowed to own certain breeds? I think not! And please don't call me love!!!


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ....But let's get one thing straight you have a "sport" a "hobby" that's all you don't work your dog you have a hobby that's nice for you and the dog! ....


Precisely. Whatever these supposed 'working trials' are for almost all cases they are simply sport. In some cases there are competitive events held for genuine working dogs but the vast majority are for 'weekend' trainers.

Irrespective of where and how any breed originated people need to get to grips with the fact that almost all working dogs are no longer used in the way they were 'designed' for.

How many of the following are commonplace:

Dachshunds hunting badgers?
Labradors jumping into the sea to retrieve fish?
Poodles flushing game from water?
Yorkshire terriers hunting rats?

Simple answer - none. A few dogs from of any of those breeds may be used for their original purpose but the majority are nowhere near those activities. And, as much as sports like Shitshund (and I'll spell it my way to reflect my opinion of it) have a small but devoted band of followers, it's only a sport.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

AlbertRoss said:


> And, as much as sports like Shitshund (and I'll spell it my way to reflect my opinion of it) have a small but devoted band of followers, it's only a sport.


Please feel free to continue to advertise your ignorance, it means we can immediately identify morons and treat their posts accordingly. 

I find it very helpful.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> So feel free to boil your blood love, I can reel off lots of dogs which do REAL work (whatever your personal definition of this is) AND compete in sports.
> 
> HTH


Ok love, and just to clarify what my personal definition of REAL work and sports!
Real work is really a job that a dog has a huge impact on and it would be hard or impossible to do without the dog and it helps or saves lives, be it dead body detection, AES dogs, crime scene dogs, SAR dogs, drugs dogs, all police and Army dogs in all disciplines, working farm dogs, guide dogs etc.

Like I said wasn't taking away from sports dog handler just find it incredibly galling that someone who has a sports dog and has a hobby would make such an arrogant comment, and if that how up their own asses they want to be, then surely these dogs should be left for the "real" jobs!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I was talking about one sports dog handler not all or is Vicki going to surprise me and tell me her and her dog are operational!! Or did you make the comment that only people who "work" their dogs should be allowed to own certain breeds? I think not! And please don't call me love!!!


No, I'm not going to tell you that my dog is operational, but many of her siblings are. And she probably could have been, had she been sold to a police officer instead of me. Her breeder has the purpose to breed dogs suitable for work and he's got a very good success rate, and he believes that she's got the necessary traits (which also her mentality test showed).

What might surprise you, though, is the fact that I don't do any kind of protection work with my dog. It doesn't interest me at all and though I've tried and found that my dog loves it and is a natural I just don't fancy that sport.

However, it still is a way to evaluate dogs working abilities if they're not really working. If a police officer is going to buy a puppy for police work they would turn to a breeder that has success in protection work and NOT a breeder that has success in the show ring. The show dog _might_ (but it's unlikely) have the right traits, but there's no way that you'd know. If a dog does some kind of sport that evaluates the traits you know what traits they have.

I have never said that people that doesn't work with their dogs shouldn't be allowed to own them. I just wish that only people that wants to work or do some dog sport would want to own them and that's why I'm arguing that working tests are good and beneficial to the breed.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Tip-toeing gently away from the squabble about pet v working dog debate (which to me is a red herring)...surely any dog which can`t hold something in his jaws, jump over a bar suitable for his height, and run for a distance enough to stretch his handler...
isn`t fit for any purpose. Because they are simply not able to function as a dog - let alone a working dog. 
So - if it were mandatory for a Pug to carry a dumb-bell, and for a Basset to jump a small wall, and a Bulldog to run for 400 metres....
I think it could only benefit the breeds. Have a look at old photos of these breeds - they would have no trouble with these tasks. The current ones? Hmmm


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Vicki said:


> No, I'm not going to tell you that my dog is operational, but many of her siblings are. And she probably could have been, had she been sold to a police officer instead of me. Her breeder has the purpose to breed dogs suitable for work and he's got a very good success rate, and he believes that she's got the necessary traits (which also her mentality test showed).
> 
> What might surprise you, though, is the fact that I don't do any kind of protection work with my dog. It doesn't interest me at all and though I've tried and found that my dog loves it and is a natural I just don't fancy that sport.
> 
> ...


So then I might argue why do YOU have a Mal??

I have worked dogs for a living and I would love to be able to do it for sport but unfortunately major back surgery means I can't, so with your logic I shouldn't own a GSD or Rott? Now I won't be getting a GSD on looks alone because if I did I be getting one from working lines, not going to happen not fair on dog, so guess what I'll be getting one from show lines, but not the Germanic lines, lines that look like the old GSD's, so with your comments I shouldn't have a GSD coz chances are I won't show it so it won't be worked! So a breed I lived and worked with for well over 20 years I should now chose a ummm?? bit hard to pick a breed coz somewhere along the line they all had a job?


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

Most of this conversation is above my pay grade, but just wanted to throw this out there:

The dogs you see in the upper echelons of bite sports such as ShH, French Ring and Mondio are indeed trained to a much higher level than the dogs you see in the back of police cars. Just because a dog is trained for a "sport" doesn't mean he can't do the "job" part of it.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Most of this conversation is above my pay grade, but just wanted to throw this out there:
> 
> The dogs you see in the upper echelons of bite sports such as ShH, French Ring and Mondio are indeed trained to a much higher level than the dogs you see in the back of police cars. Just because a dog is trained for a "sport" doesn't mean he can't do the "job" part of it.


 As I said my comments weren't directed at the sports dog community as I have no issue with it, rather at the fact if dogs aren't worked then they should not be pets! As it turns out makes no odds as OP isn't a sports handler either meh!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Meezey said:


> So then I might argue why do YOU have a Mal??


I have a Mali because I *do* work with her. In Sweden we have other dog sports that doesn't involve bite work, but still evaluates the traits necessary for working dogs. I compete in tracking and obedience and also intend to compete in search trials (not search and rescue, but similar- you could say that search trials are a competitive form of search and rescue).

Those forms of competition have been exclusive to the nordic countries, but from 1 January 2012 there are also international rules for Working Trials Nordic Style: http://www.fci.be/circulaires/22-2012-annex-en.pdf

Those are not exactly the rules we have here, but it'll give you an idea of what it is that we do.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Wow what complete and utter snobbery!!! Do you know I have utter respect for people who work their dogs, would love to still be able too, would love to get a dog and work it for sport!! But let's get one thing straight you have a "sport" a "hobby" that's all you don't work your dog you have a hobby that's nice for you and the dog! If you don't want to ruin a breed then you leave it to the people who do REAL jobs of value with dogs! I really don't want to offend any other sports dog handlers here because as I said if I could I would be doing it, and I do understand working lines! But to see such arrogance from a sports handler makes my blood boil!


Do you know, you took the words right out of my mouth! Well said!


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Ok love, and just to clarify what my personal definition of REAL work and sports!
> Real work is really a job that a dog has a huge impact on and it would be hard or impossible to do without the dog and it helps or saves lives, be it dead body detection, AES dogs, crime scene dogs, S&R dogs, drugs dogs, all police and Army dogs in all disciplines, working farm dogs, guide dogs etc.


I agree, that is real work. It is also jobs that not any dog can do. The people working with dogs in these areas want new dogs all the time and as it is costly and time consuming to train a dog to do this kind of work, of course they want dogs with the best conditions to pass the tests to become operational.

A puppy from parents that have proven their abilities in certain areas is more likely to succeed in that area. That is simple genetics. And that is why working tests are good.

For example, a police dog needs to be healthy, agile, sociable, courageous, strong and determined. They need to have prey drive and be playful, especially have the drive to tug. So how are the people buying new police dogs supposed to know if the puppy's parents have these traits if they're just pets or show dogs?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> For example, a police dog needs to be healthy, agile, sociable, courageous, strong and determined. They need to have prey drive and be playful, especially have the drive to tug. So how are the people buying new police dogs supposed to know if the puppy's parents have these traits if they're just pets or show dogs?


In exactly the same way that they know puppies' parents from working lines have the traits - by observation and tests. I admit I'm no expert in the matter of training police dogs - I know only what I have seen on documentaries and we all know how inaccurate they can sometimes be - but as far as I understand it a prospective puppy for police work has to undergo and pass vigorous and exacting tests, no matter what the background.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Vicki said:


> For example, a police dog needs to be healthy, agile, sociable, courageous, strong and determined. They need to have prey drive and be playful, especially have the drive to tug. So how are the people buying new police dogs supposed to know if the puppy's parents have these traits if they're just pets or show dogs?


They don't hence why most forces Police and Military have their own breeding programs?They are carry out intensive tests and even pups from their own breeding don't make the grade? Most forces seem to breed their own now rather then gifted or purchased dogs! Strange that even with their own high drive dogs that they still don't make the mark?


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> In exactly the same way that they know puppies' parents from working lines have the traits - by observation and tests. I admit I'm no expert in the matter of training police dogs - I know only what I have seen on documentaries and we all know how inaccurate they can sometimes be - but as far as I understand it a prospective puppy for police work has to undergo and pass vigorous and exacting tests, no matter what the background.


Yes, they have to undergo several tests to become police dogs, but you can't test an 8 week old puppy and know that it'll pass all the tests. It costs a lot of money to raise a dog from puppy to an operational police dog and they are not willing to gamble very much (it's of course always a bit of a gamble, since genetics isn't an exact science).

That is why they want puppies from dogs that are documented to have the traits that they are looking for. They don't look for prospective police dogs in non-working lines, because they don't have any proof that they have any of the necessary traits and, sadly enough, show bred dogs lack the necessary traits.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Meezey said:


> They don't hence why most forces Police and Military have their own breeding programs?They are carry out intensive tests and even pups from their own breeding don't make the grade? Most forces seem to breed their own now rather then gifted or purchased dogs! Strange that even with their own high drive dogs that they still don't make the mark?


They don't always have their own breeding programs and even if they do they buy from private breeders as well (and of course they sometimes are given problematic dogs that people can't handle as pets because they have to much drives).

The Swedish Police and Military used to have their own breeding program, but they don't anymore. They found it more economical to buy dogs (puppies or young adults) from private breeders. The working line dogs are of very good quality, because the dog sports such as tracking trials, search trials and protection work evaluates the dogs "workability" very good plus that we have the mentality tests that most working dogs do (and some not working as well).


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> and, sadly enough, show bred dogs lack the necessary traits.


And what proof do you have of this (other than snobbery)?

I ask because I own border collies and bergamaschi from show lines. None of my dogs have been trained as workers, but that does not mean that their inherent abilities are not there - merely that they have not been trained to work. They show their inherent abilities all the time - for example, on walks the border collies herd us, and when we're in the house, one of them can't even stand for us to be in separate rooms and does her best to herd everyone into the same room. I could give you several other examples - they show their inherent abilities in many ways - but these will suffice to dispel the urban myth that show dogs have had their working ability bred out of them. They haven't. They have just not been trained as workers in their particular field.

And, to bring the thread full circle - the fact that show border collies can and do can pass herding tests - whilst by no means the full load of work undertaken by a working dog - at least shows that the inherent ability is still there, no matter what the "my dog's from working lines so it's inherent abilities are better than your showdog's inherent abilities" snobs would like to fool themselves into believing.


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Please feel free to continue to advertise your ignorance, it means we can immediately identify morons and treat their posts accordingly.
> 
> I find it very helpful.


There's nothing ignorant at all about identifying some made up sport as not being, in any way, representative of a a dog's working abilities. Shitshund sums it up nicely - because it's sh*t. It's a pointless weekend love in for people who, amongst other things, believe that they can train a dog only to attack someone wearing a padded sleeve -as opposed to someone without a sleeve. Therefore, they stop and ask any attacker/burglar to pop off and get a padded sleeve before they can loose their dog. (yes, proponents of Shitshund have argued that the dog will only attack a padded sleeve here many times). So - pointless.

Or, they are going to fire a gun to see if the dog is frightened. Yes, indeed. Gunfire occurs every few seconds here - NOT. Waste of time and space.

Perhaps you won't bother to mention that the shitshund tests had to be modified because Austria eventually stood up for the dogs and said it was wrong to keep hitting them several times as part of their training? Or perhaps you are still hitting yours? Happened many years ago? No. It happened a couple of years ago. Obviously a 'sport' for people who like dogs. Well, they liked them enough to keep hitting them, anyway. And, to an extent, they still do. After all, there is supposed to be 2 strikes with a "padded" stick in the test. Padded? Wrapped in leather. If I belt you with a baton wrapped in leather there's a pretty good chance you'd be in hospital.

And, other than in Germany (at the insistence of the SV which kept the shitshund title) it should now be known as IPO.

It's a pointless and unrealistic test of 'working'. But, if you and your dogs want to play then go ahead and play. At least it keeps you and your dogs away from everybody else.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2013)

AlbertRoss said:


> There's nothing ignorant at all about identifying some made up sport as not being, in any way, representative of a a dog's working abilities. Shitshund sums it up nicely - because it's sh*t. It's a pointless weekend love in for people who, amongst other things, believe that they can train a dog only to attack someone wearing a padded sleeve -as opposed to someone without a sleeve. Therefore, they stop and ask any attacker/burglar to pop off and get a padded sleeve before they can loose their dog. (yes, proponents of Shitshund have argued that the dog will only attack a padded sleeve here many times). So - pointless.
> 
> Or, they are going to fire a gun to see if the dog is frightened. Yes, indeed. Gunfire occurs every few seconds here - NOT. Waste of time and space.
> 
> ...


Wow... I don't even do bite sports and I find your post hugely ignorant and offensive. 
Could you not have simply said that you don't find SchH to be an effective evaluation of a dog's working ability without being so rude and obnoxious about it?

FWIW, I know quite a few dogs who "play" at bite sports. And they are super dogs. Some do see it all as a game but some are quite serious about it. You can tell the difference, and those who are serious about it are the ones who go off to do "real" work.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> And what proof do you have of this (other than snobbery)?
> 
> I ask because I own border collies and bergamaschi from show lines. None of my dogs have been trained as workers, but that does not mean that their inherent abilities are not there - merely that they have not been trained to work. They show their inherent abilities all the time - for example, on walks the border collies herd us, and when we're in the house, one of them can't even stand for us to be in separate rooms and does her best to herd everyone into the same room. I could give you several other examples - they show their inherent abilities in many ways - but these will suffice to dispel the urban myth that show dogs have had their working ability bred out of them. They haven't. They have just not been trained as workers in their particular field.
> 
> And, to bring the thread full circle - the fact that show border collies can and do can pass herding tests - whilst by no means the full load of work undertaken by a working dog - at least shows that the inherent ability is still there, no matter what the "my dog's from working lines so it's inherent abilities are better than your showdog's inherent abilities" snobs would like to fool themselves into believing.


No, it's not as simple that they haven't been trained for it. Herding is not a simple trick such as to teach the dog to sit; it requires certain traits to be able to perform the task of herding. If it was true that it's just because the dog hasn't been trained to do something, then any breed could perform any job. But we both know that a salukis doesn't herd and chihuahuas aren't good as police dogs.

So there is more to it than a dog hasn't been trained. And you can't evaluate how good a dog is at herding from what it does on walks  I'm sure that your dog displays some herding abilities. My dog does too, but I'm not deluding myself that that means that she can herd, even if she's a pastoral breed. They haven't been bred for it for generations and it's a fact that traits decreases or disappears if they are not taken into account in breeding.

If your dog is so good at herding, then prove it at a herding test.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Vicki said:


> They don't always have their own breeding programs and even if they do they buy from private breeders as well (and of course they sometimes are given problematic dogs that people can't handle as pets because they have to much drives).
> 
> The Swedish Police and Military used to have their own breeding program, but they don't anymore. They found it more economical to buy dogs (puppies or young adults) from private breeders. The working line dogs are of very good quality, because the dog sports such as tracking trials, search trials and protection work evaluates the dogs "workability" very good plus that we have the mentality tests that most working dogs do (and some not working as well).


Have they got rid of their breeding programs there then? Didn't last long then seeing as they only started their own breeding program in 2004 thought they had a unit that trained all their military dogs? Doesn't the SAFDIC breed train and supply military dogs in Sweden?


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Have they got rid of their breeding programs there then? Didn't last long then seeing as they only started their own breeding program in 2004 thought they had a unit that trained all their military dogs? Doesn't the SAFDIC breed train and supply military dogs in Sweden?


The police haven't had a breeding program for a long time. The Army had a breeding program that was cancelled and then started up again in 2004 and quit in 2007. But in the back of my mind I think that I've heard that they still have a small scale breeding program, but they still buy dogs from private breeders. The foundation of their breeding program was dogs from private breeders.

In 2006 I had a German Shepherd bitch that was bought by the Army from a private breeder because she was from good working lines. The Army bought her and her sister at 8 weeks with the intention to breed them, but they were a bit much to handle for the foster families and they were returned to the breeder. He gave one of them to me to give some basic training and she stayed with me for 4 months and I loved her (the breeder wanted me to have her, but I couldn't keep her at the time), so I know for a fact that they bought dogs from private breeders.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Oh ok just wondered as was reading about their selection methods for their breeding programes and how they train their dogs and handlers for the forces?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> No, it's not as simple that they haven't been trained for it. Herding is not a simple trick such as to teach the dog to sit; *it requires certain traits to be able to perform the task of herding.* If it was true that it's just because the dog hasn't been trained to do something, then any breed could perform any job. But *we both know that a salukis doesn't herd and chihuahuas aren't good as police dogs*.


Exactly - which was my point. Salukis and chis would not be any good trained as herding or police dogs because they don't have the inherent abilities to begin with. But the fact that show border collies can be trained to complete a herding test shows that the inherent abilities are there, whether you like to admit it or not.



Vicki said:


> And you can't evaluate how good a dog is at herding from what it does on walks  I'm sure that your dog displays some herding abilities. My dog does too, but I'm not deluding myself that that means that she can herd, even if she's a pastoral breed.


I didn't say it meant they could herd. I said it meant the inherent abilities were there to be trained.



Vicki said:


> They haven't been bred for it for generations and it's a fact that traits decreases or disappears if they are not taken into account in breeding.


Is it really? Or is that just another one of your urban myths borrn out of your snobbery? And even if it were true, it is the complete opposite of your earlier insistance that police dogs have to come from lines with proven working abilitiy because working abilities are passed on genetically. Which is true? Either breed traits are genetic or breed traits diasppear if not used. Both your assertions cannot be correct.



Vicki said:


> If your dog is so good at herding, then prove it at a herding test.


I have not said my dog is good at herding. I have said that all my pastoral dogs display their inherent breed abilities and so *could be* tained. I have neither the time, the need, the money, nor the inclination to train my dogs to take the herding tests just to prove something to the "working" snobs.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Perhaps you didn't read my later post where Smokeybear asked me about this and I answered in the affirmative


Sorry I did. But I replied before reading the whole thread ... I should really learn to read the whole thread before replying.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm tired so I've probably missed something here - but are you really advocating that in an ideal world no-one would have a dog from the pastoral, working, gundog, terrier and most of the utility breeds as a pet? That in an ideal world the only people priviledged to be able to own a dog from one of these breeds should be someone who needs them to do a job of work?


No, I am saying that if you can't handle and channel the drives, energy, intelligence etc of a particular breed then get a different breed. I am not necessarily saying by working said breed in its original job, but giving said breed an outlet for his energy, intelligence etc.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Vicki said:
> 
> 
> > They haven't been bred for it for generations and it's a fact that traits decreases or disappears if they are not taken into account in breeding.
> ...


But I'm saying the same thing It's not my problem that you have difficulties understanding what I'm saying.

But I'll try to explain once more. Traits are passed on genetically. If you want a puppy to have for example strong prey drive, it wouldn't be very smart to breed two dogs with no prey drive, right? But to breed two dogs with strong prey drive would likely produce a puppy with strong prey drive. That is because prey drive is passed on genetically.

But if prey drive wasn't a priority in your breeding and you didn't care whether or not the parents had prey drive or didn't care whether or not the puppies had prey drive, the prey drive would not be as strong in that line as in the line where prey drive was a priority. It would decrease, but still show up in some dogs.

If prey drive was something that you absolutely didn't want in your breeding, it would be smart to breed dogs with little or no prey drive. Traits that are not there doesn't get passed on genetically (obviously) and the offspring will not have prey drive; it will disappear.

Since most people that breed dogs for show or just as pets they don't take traits necessary for work, such as prey drive, into account the occurance of those traits will decrease. Some of the traits necessary for work makes the dog difficult to handle, for example prey drive, which is why some breeders deliberately breeds dog that doesn't have those traits to make them easier to own as pets/show dogs and that will make the traits disappear eventually.

Of course, genetics and breeding is more complicated than this, but this is basically how it works.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Moobli said:


> No, I am saying that if you can't handle and channel the drives, energy, intelligence etc of a particular breed then get a different breed. I am not necessarily saying by working said breed in its original job, but giving said breed an outlet for his energy, intelligence etc.


Ah, then I agree with you!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> But I'm saying the same thing It's not my problem that you have difficulties understanding what I'm saying.


Yes it is because you changed your argument halfway through - see below.



Vicki said:


> But I'll try to explain once more. Traits are passed on genetically. If you want a puppy to have for example strong prey drive, it wouldn't be very smart to breed two dogs with no prey drive, right? But to breed two dogs with strong prey drive would likely produce a puppy with strong prey drive. That is because prey drive is passed on genetically.
> 
> But if prey drive wasn't a priority in your breeding and you didn't care whether or not the parents had prey drive or didn't care whether or not the puppies had prey drive, the prey drive would not be as strong in that line as in the line where prey drive was a priority. It would decrease, but still show up in some dogs.
> 
> ...


Ah, now I see why I did not understand you. I was taking your argument as a logical progression, when in fact you are not arguing in a logical progression but changing your argument by introducing suppositions and an unproved premise.

You first argument was:
_Dogs inherit breed traits genetically
Therefore if breed traits are unused then they will disappear_

Which is complete nonsense.

What you are now arguing is:
_Dogs inherit breed traits genetically
If people deliberately breed away from those breed traits then they will disappear_

Which makes much more sense.

Of course, then you go and completely spoil your argument by adding a premise based on an unproved opinion (the one in red):

_Dogs inherit breed traits genetically
Show breeders and pet breeders deliberately breed away from those breed traits
Therefore breed traits have disappeared in show and pet dogs._

This premise based on an unproved opinion is unsound. An unsound premise renders your argument invalid and makes your assertion based on your argument nonsensical.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> You first argument was:
> _Dogs inherit breed traits genetically
> Therefore if breed traits are unused then they will disappear_
> 
> Which is complete nonsense.


That has never been my argument.



Spellweaver said:


> What you are now arguing is:
> _Dogs inherit breed traits genetically
> If people deliberately breed away from those breed traits then they will disappear_
> 
> Which makes much more sense.


That has been my argument all along.



Spellweaver said:


> Of course, then you go and completely spoil your argument by adding a premise based on an unproved opinion (the one in red):
> 
> _Dogs inherit breed traits genetically
> Show breeders and pet breeders deliberately breed away from those breed traits
> ...


It's not unproved. I presented proof in another similar thread. But it was hard work to translate and explain the results of the tests and I don't have neither time nor energy to do that again. I'll see if I can find that thread, though.

But I really don't need proof, since there are show breeders in this thread that says that they deliberately breed away from breed traits necessary for work.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Ability is genetic, but just because a pet Labrador can wander round with something in their mouths doesn't mean they would be able to work or compete effectively. There's a whole host of natural skills a retriever needs in there to work, one of the worst traits I've seen with some pet/show Labradors is their lack of biddability and drive. Unless you've owned both strains, or had experience of them at least, and understand what they were bred for, then you might not perceive things the same way. People make assumptions from a pet scenario that simply may not hold true in the working world, just because a spaniel enjoys jumping through hedges does not mean it could, or would effectively work cover the way it was meant to, just as an example.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I have to agree, and I'd add that unless that ability is used it tends to get diluted over several generations. So a dog with a FTCHs on the fourth or fifth line of it's pedigree, means that ability is probably lost. There was a documentary about animals (not dogs) some years ago that showed that ability and natural traits are inherited but are also quickly lost, And from what I have observed, would agree.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ability is genetic, but just because a pet Labrador can wander round with something in their mouths doesn't mean they would be able to work or compete effectively. There's a whole host of natural skills a retriever needs in there to work, one of the worst traits I've seen with some pet/show Labradors is their lack of biddability and drive. Unless you've owned both strains, or had experience of them at least, and understand what they were bred for, then you might not perceive things the same way. People make assumptions from a pet scenario that simply may not hold true in the working world, just because a spaniel enjoys jumping through hedges does not mean it could, or would effectively work cover the way it was meant to, just as an example.


I agree - and I never said that what happened in the pet scenario meant you could take a dog to a flock of sheep or a shoot and expect it to work. What I did say was that the way animals behave in their natural surroundings show their inherent abilities - ie their breed traits. You only have to watch their games when playing - the bergies, for example, don't drop into a crouch, dart and nip heels like the border collies do when they play. My show border collies do - ergo they are displaying their breed traits. Now, if they had been trained as workers from an early age that trait, and others, could have been developed and you would have a dog with ful working ability - just as any border collie from working lines.

I gave as proof of inherent bred traits still being present in show border collies the fact that show border collies can be trained to take a herding test. If the abilities weren't there, they could not be trained.

I am not saying that an adult show border collie would be able to go out and work once they have taken the herding test - what I am saying is that the fact that they can take and pass the test means the ability is still there, and that it logically follows on that had the dog been trained as a worker rather than a show dog from the get go, then the dog would have been indistinguishable from a dog from working lines.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> But I really don't need proof, since there are show breeders in this thread that says that they deliberately breed away from breed traits necessary for work.


I don't think there are! Perhaps you would care to quote them?


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

I can confirm that each country in the FCI has its own rules regarding this...the BOB is not the issue but title of Champion per country...it is a minefield as not all activities that dogs can get diplomas in for sport are considered acceptable obedience diploma for example is not accepted strangely enough...

as for RCI SCHUTZHUND MORDANT dog biting and hanging onto the arm of a human attacked sport ...well it defies understanding to see what on EARTH this has to do with the ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF A SHEEPDOG !!!

It is unreasonable to think flocks of sheep are to be put through stress of being chased around aimlessly by dogs that are not working sheepdogs ! 

Additionally when i looked at the records of CHAMPION SPORT DIPLOMAD dogs compared to CHAMPION SHOW DOGS i was amazed to find...in 1 year of 9 thousand showdog champs there were only 100 CHAMP SPORT dogs !

so ? seems to me SPORT and STANDARD LOOKS are different things ! a dog can be an excellent sport dog or excellent looking dog the two things are not necessarily related so why pretend ? 

what are we trying to achieve here ? to give titles to dogs that are fit for purpose ? healthy ? well emphasis on HEALTH might be a better way to insist on having dogs pass tests on than their original carriage accompanying roles ! what dalmation runs along a car today as everyday activity ? surely all we want is to know a dalmation can run and is healthy enough ?

Our dogs other than some hunting dogs and not all of them are mostly PETS today ! there is no shame in that surely ! those that do activities can get diplomas in those if they can and wish. 

Let me also add that any PROFESSIONAL dog of guard dogs used that has had this BITING SPORT training and diploma has to WEAR A MUZZLE in PUBLIC in France at least as any dog enoucraged to jump and hang onto arms of people is not considered SAFE in public for joggers etc EVEN IF PROFESSIONAL but AMATEURS doing it of course are EXEMPT this currently ! strewth, as aussies say, i have enough like many problems teaching BITE CONTROL to my dogs to not wish to claim as many do i have perfectly controllable BITING SPORT DOGS when i let them loose off leads and joggers wearing the same clothing run past ! not that dogs off leads other than on private land is legal of course officially in France ! 

Dalmation carriage tests need to be thought up hey ! lol ! pull the other one !


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I don't think there are! Perhaps you would care to quote them?


This is what I wrote in the other thread. Unfortunately it's a bit out of context, but it probably doesn't matter because I know that you wont see this as proof anyway because you don't really understand what these mental descriptions are all about and it's no easy to explain either.



Vicki said:


> The Tervueren and the Groenendael have not been ruined because they don't participate in ringsports, but because breeders have been too focused on looks and not mentality. That's why they are shy and fearful and lacks some breed specific traits.
> 
> In Sweden, where I live, we have been testing dog's mentalities for many years now. First you do a description of the dogs mentality when it's young (preferably when it's 12-18 months) and with some breeds (working breeds) you can do a mental test, in which the dog gets points and is approved or not (the description is just a description, you don't get approved). The result's from these descriptions are official so you can look up any dog you like online to see their results. Breeds that have many described dogs also have a diagram to show the breeds average.
> 
> ...


These are the statistics for three varieties of a breed, but the statistics show that there are differences between show bred and work bred dogs in other breeds as well.

In order for you to understand a little bit better what this is about I have looked up some you tube clips. Here's a Groenendael:
Bonzai Mental description (MH) part I - YouTube
Bonzai mental description (MH) part II - YouTube
Bonzai&#39;s mental description (MH) part III - YouTube

(and I apologize for the English in the description of these clips; I know I didn't write it, but I'm embarrassed on their behalf)

And here's a Malinois:
MH Hades van de Duvetorre part I - YouTube
MH Hades van de Duvetorre part II - YouTube

Even if you know nothing about these mental descriptions it should be obvious which of these dogs would be better as a working dog.

And if anyone has any questions about the mental descriptions, feel free to ask and I'll explain to the best of my ability.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree - and I never said that what happened in the pet scenario meant you could take a dog to a flock of sheep or a shoot and expect it to work. What I did say was that the way animals behave in their natural surroundings show their inherent abilities - ie their breed traits. You only have to watch their games when playing - the bergies, for example, don't drop into a crouch, dart and nip heels like the border collies do when they play. My show border collies do - ergo they are displaying their breed traits. Now, if they had been trained as workers from an early age that trait, and others, could have been developed and you would have a dog with ful working ability - just as any border collie from working lines.
> 
> I gave as proof of inherent bred traits still being present in show border collies the fact that show border collies can be trained to take a herding test. If the abilities weren't there, they could not be trained.
> 
> I am not saying that an adult show border collie would be able to go out and work once they have taken the herding test - what I am saying is that the fact that they can take and pass the test means the ability is still there, and that it logically follows on that had the dog been trained as a worker rather than a show dog from the get go, then the dog would have been indistinguishable from a dog from working lines.


Sorry, but I really don't agree. I am not saying that no show line border collies could work sheep, but I am saying that if it isn't there in the first place, you cannot put it there.

Much of the "training" required for working sheepdogs is actually just tweaking their already inherent instincts and drive. You cannot "train" these traits into a working sheepdog.

How many show champions have taken the herding test, and passed?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> I can confirm that each country in the FCI has its own rules regarding this...the BOB is not the issue but title of Champion per country...it is a minefield as not all activities that dogs can get diplomas in for sport are considered acceptable obedience diploma for example is not accepted strangely enough...
> 
> as for RCI SCHUTZHUND MORDANT dog biting and hanging onto the arm of a human attacked sport ...well it defies understanding to see what on EARTH this has to do with the ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF A SHEEPDOG !!!
> 
> ...


No we do not have to think of carriage tests for Dalmatians, these are already in existence in the UK and are very popular with dogs running behind a carriage or next to a horse and rider.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

AlbertRoss said:


> There's nothing ignorant at all about identifying some made up sport as not being, in any way, representative of a a dog's working abilities. Shitshund sums it up nicely - because it's sh*t. It's a pointless weekend love in for people who, amongst other things, believe that they can train a dog only to attack someone wearing a padded sleeve -as opposed to someone without a sleeve. Therefore, they stop and ask any attacker/burglar to pop off and get a padded sleeve before they can loose their dog. (yes, proponents of Shitshund have argued that the dog will only attack a padded sleeve here many times). So - pointless.
> 
> Or, they are going to fire a gun to see if the dog is frightened. Yes, indeed. Gunfire occurs every few seconds here - NOT. Waste of time and space.
> 
> ...


It is a shame that you have only been exposed to mediocre dogs, trained and handled by mediocre people.

As said already many dogs which compete in Schutzhund/IPO/Working Trials etc etc are working police dogs and can cope with a concealed sleeve, no sleeve and bite suit.

But you will never have to worry as the mediocre excuses for dogs that you support will never be competing at the top level in anything as they do not possess the conformation or courage to face such tests.

Good luck with your pointless quest to create a separate breed, which has to be diluted so that you and your ilk are able to totter round a show ring once a week.

Like a lot of people who confuse phenotype with genotype, you want a dog with Formula One Bodywork (or what you think is F1) that houses a Robin Reliant Engine, because you could not handle the former.

I wonder why your type consistently fails even in the show ring?

I am sure you can invent a new breed like the Swiss Shepherd which caters for the lovers of white coated dogs.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Moobli said:


> Sorry, but I really don't agree. I am not saying that no show line border collies could work sheep, but I am saying that if it isn't there in the first place, you cannot put it there.
> 
> Much of the "training" required for working sheepdogs is actually just tweaking their already inherent instincts and drive. You cannot "train" these traits into a working sheepdog.
> 
> How many show champions have taken the herding test, and passed?


But I am saying it's there in the first place in show dogs, not that you have to train it into them.

No idea how many show champions have taken the herding test and passed - I'll see if I can look it up anywhere. I do know that, like me, most show owners I speak to feel it is a good thing, but have neither the time nor the money to do it. A close friend of mine has just done it - and her show dog passed. I'll get details from her.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> This is what I wrote in the other thread. Unfortunately it's a bit out of context, but it probably doesn't matter because I know that you wont see this as proof anyway because you don't really understand what these mental descriptions are all about and it's no easy to explain either.
> 
> These are the statistics for three varieties of a breed, but the statistics show that there are differences between show bred and work bred dogs in other breeds as well.
> 
> ...


Vicki it's late and I'm working tomorrow so I haven't had time to follow the links. But from what you've written, this comparison shows the difference between three different types of Belgian Shepherd dog, not the difference between show dogs and working dogs.

You seem to be moulding the truth to fit your argument - a bit like when you said "show breeders on this thread have said they breed away from working instinct" - (I notice you could find no examples of that!)


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Vicki it's late and I'm working tomorrow so I haven't had time to follow the links. But from what you've written, this comparison shows the difference between three different types of Belgian Shepherd dog, not the difference between show dogs and working dogs.
> 
> You seem to be moulding the truth to fit your argument - a bit like when you said "show breeders on this thread have said they breed away from working instinct" - (I notice you could find no examples of that!)


Since the Groenendael and Tervuren are the show bred variety and the Malinois is the working variety of the Belgian Shepherd, this *is* a comparison of show dogs and working dogs.

It's a shame that you don't want to watch the links; you might learn something.

I'm sorry, I misread your post and was looking for what I wrote on the other thread instead of looking for examples in this thread. As you said it's late and I don't want to read through the entire thread right now, but with a quick look I found this:



Bijou said:


> ...and equally don't change the temperament of a herding breed to make it more competitive at hanging off a padded sleeve especially if this then makes them unsuitable as pets


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Groenendael and Tervueren are NOT the show bred varieties of BSD - pups I've bred have work as SAR and therapy dogs - they do agility, flyball, obedience and HWTM they also corect enough examples of their breed to win in the show ring - they remain the ORIGINAL versatile BSD as do most of the Malinois I know- it is only this small group of what THEY call working Malinois that are changing the temperament of this variety ( which is what the piece you've quoted from me is about )- their definition of work is restricted to IPO type of activities despite the fact that the BSD is capable of so much more - in fact so extreme do they want this new type of Malinois to be that they are crossing it with other breeds to increase their macho appeal.

It's complete nonsense to call ONLY these Malinois the 'working' BSD- I specialise in producing dogs that are suitable as Therapy dogs for kids with autism and currently have three dogs doing this work - explain how this is not JUST as valid a definition of working ability as all the stupid macho posturing that goes with ring sports ?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Vicki said:


> Since the Groenendael and Tervuren are the show bred variety and the Malinois is the working variety of the Belgian Shepherd, this *is* a comparison of show dogs and working dogs.


So this is a comparison of show bred Groens and Tervs and a working Mal? I'm sorry, but this does not prove your point. It is merely a comparison between different types of BSD. For you to use this to prove your point, it would have to be a comparison of *show bred Groens, Tervs and Mals *against *working Groens, Tervs and Mals*, not show bred from some and working from others.



Vicki said:


> It's a shame that you don't want to watch the links; you might learn something.


I didn't say I didn't want to watch the clips - I said that I hadn't got time to watch the clips. (I do wish you would read posts properly and not attribute an attitude to me that I have not shown) I've watched them this morning and, like your post, all they show is a comparison between two different types of dog. It's like watching clips of a bergie and a border collie and trying to draw comparisons. Again, for your argument to have any validity, you need to be able to compare clips of show Groens to working Groens and show Mals to working Mals.



Vicki said:


> I'm sorry, I misread your post and was looking for what I wrote on the other thread instead of looking for examples in this thread. As you said it's late and I don't want to read through the entire thread right now, but with a quick look I found this:


_Originally Posted by Bijou 
...and equally don't change the temperament of a herding breed to make it more competitive at hanging off a padded sleeve especially if this then makes them unsuitable as pets_

A show breeder saying that temperaments of working dogs should not be changed to make them more aggressive does not mean that she is saying that she deliberately breeds away from working traits. You do seem to twist things to suit your arguments, don't you?

Vicki, I'm trying to be patient with you because I am not sure whether or not English is your first language - if it isn't, you speak English a zillion times better than I could ever hope to speak Swedish and I admire and praise you for that. However, you seem to continually post things that you say prove points you are trying to make, when in fact they don't. If this is because you don't fully understand the language, then fair enough. But if you do fully understand the language, then please stop twisting articles, you-tube clips and posts to fit your argument, and trying to say they prove your argument when in fact they don't.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

before batter dies i say BRAVO to therapy working dogs as this is real work

sheepdogs are not what many are making the belgian image and demands of ipo attackign human sport 

it is a disgrace to encourage such qualifications in biting sports for a breed called a sheepdog i agree

may the therapy agility etc real useful activities rule if needed


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree - and I never said that what happened in the pet scenario meant you could take a dog to a flock of sheep or a shoot and expect it to work. What I did say was that the way animals behave in their natural surroundings show their inherent abilities - ie their breed traits. You only have to watch their games when playing - the bergies, for example, don't drop into a crouch, dart and nip heels like the border collies do when they play. My show border collies do - ergo they are displaying their breed traits. Now, if they had been trained as workers from an early age that trait, and others, could have been developed and you would have a dog with ful working ability - just as any border collie from working lines.
> 
> I gave as proof of inherent bred traits still being present in show border collies the fact that show border collies can be trained to take a herding test. If the abilities weren't there, they could not be trained.
> 
> I am not saying that an adult show border collie would be able to go out and work once they have taken the herding test - what I am saying is that the fact that they can take and pass the test means the ability is still there, and that it logically follows on that had the dog been trained as a worker rather than a show dog from the get go, then the dog would have been indistinguishable from a dog from working lines.


But in the example I've given, just because a pet/show Labrador wanders around with something in it's mouth, does not mean it can or will work. Even if you train it, many show bred Labradors have a ceiling level of ability because it has been bred out, and that is coming from my own direct experience, and others I know who own show bred Labradors. If you do not work these dogs, and make an effort to ensure the lines you breed will work, it is bred out of them, it doesn't just magically crop up in working form even if you train them from the word go, you will not end up with an effective working dog in comparison to working lines. They are very distinguishable, not just in conformation, but in the way they work.



Spellweaver said:


> But I am saying it's there in the first place in show dogs, not that you have to train it into them.
> 
> No idea how many show champions have taken the herding test and passed - I'll see if I can look it up anywhere. I do know that, like me, most show owners I speak to feel it is a good thing, but have neither the time nor the money to do it. A close friend of mine has just done it - and her show dog passed. I'll get details from her.


But that's just it, perhaps there are some small remnants, but it's not something you can grow like a plant, you can only train what's in them, not put more into them. It's not a rule across the board and some dogs that aren't working bred might have that little bit more working capability in them, but if you don't use it, over numerous generations, the ability isn't there, you might as well teach a Labrador to herd and a collie to pick up


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...4705963.105039.453461674709892&type=1&theater

  

A true working dog


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> But I am saying it's there in the first place in show dogs, not that you have to train it into them.
> 
> No idea how many show champions have taken the herding test and passed - I'll see if I can look it up anywhere. I do know that, like me, most show owners I speak to feel it is a good thing, but have neither the time nor the money to do it. A close friend of mine has just done it - and her show dog passed. I'll get details from her.


You said :- _My show border collies do - ergo they are displaying their breed traits. Now, if they had been trained as workers from an early age that trait, and others, could have been developed and you would have a dog with ful working ability - just as any border collie from working lines_.

To me, this sounds as though you are saying that if you took a show bred collie pup and trained it to work sheep from a young age, it would work sheep. That simple. Unfortunately it is difficult enough to find a good hill dog from strong working lines and from generations of working hill dogs. It therefore follows that a pup that is bred from generations of show dogs will have only very diluted inherent abilities, if any at all! This is why farmers and shepherds buy only pups from litters bred off generations of working dogs and would never even contemplate a pup from show stock.

And this 
... _what I am saying is that the fact that they can take and pass the test means the ability is still there, and that it logically follows on that had the dog been trained as a worker rather than a show dog from the get go, then the dog would have been indistinguishable from a dog from working lines._

That isn't logical to me. So you really believe that a show bred collie, if "trained" as a worker from a pup, could then go out and do the job required as well as any BC from working lines? I don't doubt that the show collie with the most herding ability could perhaps rival a working bred collie with little interest to work - but that does not mean all show bred collies can work sheep equally as well as all working bred collies given the correct training.

The best working sheepdogs are all about inherent, built in, instinctual ability, not training. That ability and drive for work has to be there in bucketloads initially, before any type of training can take place.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

rona said:


> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...4705963.105039.453461674709892&type=1&theater
> 
> 
> 
> A true working dog


Stunning! Totally agree - and I bet that gorgeous Mali is working lines


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Some more true working dogs


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> and some dogs that aren't working bred might have that little bit more working capability in them, but if you don't use it, over numerous generations, the ability isn't there,


I agree, but don't think it takes numerous generations, I think it can happen over just a few.

It's very difficult for people who don't work their dogs or have experience of what is require of a working dog to understand. I've heard people say their show bred labradors can jump high, can go all day, have lots of energy and like carry a toy around as if that makes them have working ability - it doesn't.

If you look at the difference between working and show bred dogs in conformation, I would suggest that working ability in a show bred dog is about as far away from the reality as the 'skinny whippet' working dogs are away from the 'look' of the show bred labrador. 

What must also be remembered when talking about working dogs is that they need, certainly in gundog work and I would imagine it applies to other types of 'work', natural abilities - it is not just about training. These dogs have to rely a lot on their natural instincts and have to work independantly. The phrase 'trust your dog', that is so commonly heard in gundog circles, is used for good reason. Your dog needs to work independantly as well as under direction. This is where the show/pet bred dogs fall short in ability. Training will only get you so far.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Many years ago, over 30, I had a working bred border collie I bought from a farm. He was a fantastic pet dog with a brilliant recall, distance down etc. so easy to train I barely felt I had trained him. We lived in a city and I had no transport, but just outside the city were fields, footpaths and woodland, so I'd walk him there. He was a one (wo)man dog, who wouldn't go with anyone or take food from anyone etc. without my confirming to him that it was ok. All by himself, nothing to do with me.

One day I was out walking him when I saw a bunch of young teenagers throwing stones at sheep. The flock had split up, some of the sheep were falling and jumping down a bank into a deep stream. Panicking sheep were dropping down on top of each other and they were heading towards where the stream gets much deeper and turns into a river, they could have drowned. I yelled at the kids who ran off, then sent my collie in, he rounded up the ones in the stream and took them along the stream through to this side of the field, along the field, then up over a bridge and back to where the other sheep were, then rounded up the whole lot and took them away from the edge of the bank. I directed and 'downed' him, but he did the rest all by himself.

The farmer's 'lads' arrived in a 4 wheel drive with guns, someone had seen the commotion and called the farm telling them kids were chucking stones at their sheep. Fortunately they shouted to ask me what was going on and I could tell them that my dog was working, not worrying their sheep, which is when I realised what a stupid thing I'd done. I risked getting my dog shot.  

What I noticed though was that my dog knew what to do, I just told him which way to go and occasionally dropped him if the sheep were going too fast and I thought he might lose them, but also the sheep knew what to do. I thought sheep ran because they were scared of the dog, they don't (at least these didn't). They see a collie, bunch up together and know to move where the collie sends them. I expect scientists know why sheep react the way they do to border collies and why the collie's particular movement and eye works on them so well, but I don't. 

Amazing to watch when the nearest you've been is one man and his dog on the tv.

I expect half of you won't believe me and the other half will think I need the men in white coats, but I swear it's absolutely true and one experience that does confirm that good working bred collies don't need training as such, they just know what to do instinctively, even if they've spent most of their life in a bedsit. 

Oh and it confirms that as a younger person I was bloody stupid (but very lucky given the result), expecting a dog who'd spent his life (I got him at 6 weeks old) living in a bedsit to round up sheep as though he'd spent his life on a farm, just because he's a black and white border collie. lol


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Moobli said:


> That isn't logical to me. So you really believe that a show bred collie, if "trained" as a worker from a pup, could then go out and do the job required as well as any BC from working lines?


Yes.



Moobli said:


> I don't doubt that the show collie with the most herding ability could perhaps rival a working bred collie with little interest to work - but that does not mean all show bred collies can work sheep equally as well as all working bred collies given the correct training.


Well that's your point of view and you are as entitled to your point of view as I am to mine. However, I don't suffer from the "working dogs are better than show dogs" snobbery that exists in the working dog owners on this forum, and never will do, so we will have to agree to disagree and move on.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Well that's your point of view and you are as entitled to your point of view as I am to mine. However, I don't suffer from the "working dogs are better than show dogs" snobbery that exists in the working dog owners on this forum, and never will do, so we will have to agree to disagree and move on.


I don't think anyone has said working dogs are better than show dogs except in doing the job they were bred to do, and that is fact in my breed at least, but given that not using the natural abilities does mean that they are lost (in all animals), then it would stand to reason that the same would apply to other breeds.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

just logged on again with batery now at service station to reply to points on my post previously queried....

1. i confirm that in France as i think i stated, all PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED DEFENSE OR ATTACK dogs of police or guard people have to wear muzzles by law when out in public not on working duties.

amateurs training their dogs to jump and hand onto sleeves of humans do not have to meet this law.

so that corrects that point. if gb does not have such a law then it is gb but in france that is the law.

I do not need to expand the GREATER FEAR of dogs of the public in France or why joggers wearing similar clothes have been chased by dogs off leads which i add is also ILLEGAL unless on private land in France for those reasons also, the IPO MORDANT sport is very popular in France with a minority type of dog owner i add. the kind that likes to boast his dog is his defender. sigh. likes people to be afraid of their dogs. FEAR works.

2. i am not refering to sheep worrying, ref the point of not stressing sheep unnecessarily by having dogs run around them aimlessly...i am refering here to dogs doing their alleged HERDING INSTINCT test ... many sheep get injured in fact when the dogs are TRAINED in fact often BEFORE the alleged test of natural untrained instincts to pass this test just to look good and have a certificate for some breed eligibility towards champ points...now NONE of these dogs actually is a WORKING SHEEPDOG and the INSTINCT TEST is nonsense in reality as it does NOT test the dogs reactions TO ORDERS FROM HANDLER ! running around sheep is something many dogs will do ! obeying ORDERS is the REAL SHEEPDOG TEST ! lol !

3. the point made the ATTACK SPORTS are just using a transfer or development of natural to sheepdog traits is i reply TOTALLY CRAP ! this is just trying to justify a NEW ENFORCED behaviour in dogs that was NOT part of their original purpose...Show me the BEST SHEEPDOG IN THE WORLD BY ANY STANDARDS THE BORDER COLLEY THAT NATURALLY DOES THIS HANGING ON SLEEVES OF HUMANS IN ATTACK ?????

that is a SHEEPDOG ! not and i dare say JUST BEFORE COMING HERE TO THIS PETROL STATION i was in the woods and 1 man stopped his van to get out and admire my barking mad dogs at his vehicle approching....when i got the dogs out and ordered them to be nice to the man which they were he asked what breed they were...i said BELGIAN SHEPHERDS and he said ? ATTACK DOGS !!! yes !!! that is what IMAGE this breed has ! in a country with FEAR of them other than for ATTACKING HUMANS !

and my final own additonal point is this...

WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO ACHIEVE by classifying dogs as WORKING DOGS when the HERDING DOGS of the past ARE NOT NEEDED any more any more than dalmations running along cars or carriages etc ? times move on ! and what people have decided NOT THE DOGS i add is that BELGIANS SHEPHERDS should be moulded into ATTACK DOGS ! and THIS is what they want to test the breed for abilties in rather than SHEEPHERDING SKILLS !

i found 100 WORKING / SPORT CHAMPIONS per year on the FCI stats...and 9000 SHOW DOG CHAMPIONS and about 5 DOGS ONLY WITH TITLE IN BOTH SHOW AND AGILITY CHAMPIONS !!

THOSE NUMBERS SPEAK VOLUMES !!! dogs are judges separately for their SPORT or whatever latest ideas of usage they have to the APPEARANCE STANDARDS ! and VERY FEW DO EVEN THE SPORTS !!! or there would be equal numbers of SPORT CHAMPS to SHOW CHAMPS ! ??? not true ??? even if different looking dogs did the champs in sports surely there could be equal numbers of them to show champs hey ???

we humans are ridiculous creatures, we justify turning dogs that were nature of border colley temparaments into attack dogs to suit our own purposes...but do not kid me or others that these natures were the original natures of the dogs..

and to PROVE that OTHER BREEDS were used to make this belgian breed fierce just ASK ANY BREEDERS OF THESE DOGS in FRance about orgins !!! oh ja ! it is WIDELY KNOWN that OUTBREEDING was done to produce STRONGER JAW AND MORE AGGRESSIVE BELGIAN DOGS than the original dogs were !

and just LOOK at pictures on my LINKS page of my website to see the ORIGINAL SHEEPDOGS OF BELGIANS !!! they would be DISQUALIFIED in the showring today ! they look like ? BORDER COLLEYS ! in size ! as well as other tihings ! we humans justify ALL our changes to dogs made easily hey ! and then claim we are sticking to ORIGINAL BREED PURPOSES !!! lol !!!

the original belgian shepherds would not only be disqualified in the SHOW RING but the SO CALLED WORKING IPO RINGS ! of course !

i rest my case...developing sheepdogs or any dogs into USEFUL TO HUMAN DOGS like THERAPY is not MACHO enough for SPORT lovers hey ! well go persuad the MAJORITY of the FEARFUL OF BELGIANS PUBLIC IN FRANCE that IPO HANGING ON ARM DOGS are GOOD WORK DOGS hey !

oh deary me. i see original purpose yes in dogs and i see desirable current and future purpose in dogs, and pitbulls hey ? what happened to their original purpose ? now we have in my view officially acceptable pitbulls in the selection of belgian shepherds !!! who were of course cross bred to be stronger jawed so obviously not herding instinct dogs so much either.

<< "working dogs are better than show dogs" snobbery that exists in the working dog owners on this forum, and never will do, so we will have to agree to disagree and move on.
Like >>
i
this i find totally good point. and furthermore, the DEFINITION of what WORK is when talkign about AMATEURS not POLICE training dogs to bite and hang onto arms of humans for men and women wanting a dog to protect them is ludicrous. ludricous.

we dont need sheepdogs like hunderds of years ago. that is not to say that borders or any sheepdog origin dog is not a good dog and does not have qualities of the breed good for companionship most of all. let us STOP pretending DOGS WORK ! un less THERAPY dogs or BLIND people dogs ! they do NOT earn a living most of them from any of their sports or activities ! not any more ! and CERTAINLY do not put IPO for AMATEURS wiht OUTBRED sheepdogs made to be aggressive let us not mince words because AGGRESSION is needed to bite and jump on peoples arms ! let us NOT PRETEND THIS IS SHEEPDOG WORK !


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Oh, having seen what my dog did, I would say (though I could be wrong) he could have gone to farm work and probably loved it. He was an adult dog by then, if he'd seen sheep at all previously it would be only from a distance.

So, Spellweaver, take your adult show collies to a sheep farm and see how they do? If it's in them, they should do what my dog did I would've thought, unless he was exceptional, which of course I thought he was. 

I wouldn't bet against them tbh. You never know.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes.
> 
> Well that's your point of view and you are as entitled to your point of view as I am to mine. However, I don't suffer from the "working dogs are better than show dogs" snobbery that exists in the working dog owners on this forum, and never will do, so we will have to agree to disagree and move on.


I really don't believe it is snobbery at all. Nowhere in this thread has anyone said working dogs are better than show dogs per se. Working dogs are better at working and show dogs are better at showing. Surely that is logical to all.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Surely that is logical to all.


I would say so, or why would people in the know recommend the show version of a breed as a pet, rather than the working version?


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

>>working dogs are better at working>>

what work ?? WHAT WORK ? what dog earns a living or has an activity that is WORK ??? other than dog for the blind ??? 

sigh

the argument does not hold. the kind of REAL WORK DOGS ARE NEEDED FOR TODAY are ? and i mean the MAJORITY Of possible work for dogs ! not some past activity a minority of dogs actually really do ! for sport ! ??? well i dont think there is much of an argument for WORKING DOGS other than GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND THERAPY DOGS and sniffer dogs for drugs and hey a chichi in japan police force is being used for that it is not a particuarly BREED SPECIFIC or limiting thing that ...

the main WORK our dogs have is TO BE OUR COMPANIONS and not be a nuissance to others ! a minority have some sports for fun. and some are REAL WORK dogs like BLIND and THERAPY dogs.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> just logged on again with batery now at service station to reply to points on my post previously queried....
> 
> 1. i confirm that in France as i think i stated, all PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED DEFENSE OR ATTACK dogs of police or guard people have to wear muzzles by law when out in public not on working duties.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I am possibly not following your post correctly - but there are plenty of dogs who DO work for a living. We have working sheepdogs and every one of them works sheep every single day. My husband could not do his job without his faithful team of highly skilled border collies.

Or are you only discussing Malinois and IPO/Schutzhund?


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Vicki, I'm trying to be patient with you because I am not sure whether or not English is your first language - if it isn't, you speak English a zillion times better than I could ever hope to speak Swedish and I admire and praise you for that. However, you seem to continually post things that you say prove points you are trying to make, when in fact they don't. If this is because you don't fully understand the language, then fair enough. But if you do fully understand the language, then please stop twisting articles, you-tube clips and posts to fit your argument, and trying to say they prove your argument when in fact they don't.


English is not my first language and it's absolutely possible that my English isn't good enough to make myself understood and/or understand others. The reason I became a member here was to practice my English, which I know is not perfect.



Spellweaver said:


> So this is a comparison of show bred Groens and Tervs and a working Mal? I'm sorry, but this does not prove your point. It is merely a comparison between different types of BSD. For you to use this to prove your point, it would have to be a comparison of *show bred Groens, Tervs and Mals *against *working Groens, Tervs and Mals*, not show bred from some and working from others.





Spellweaver said:


> It's like watching clips of a bergie and a border collie and trying to draw comparisons. Again, for your argument to have any validity, you need to be able to compare clips of show Groens to working Groens and show Mals to working Mals.


It's not like comparing Bergies and Borders, because Groen, Terv and Mali are the same breed, not three different breeds. But I agree that it would be better to show a comparison between a show bred and working bred dog from the same variety of the breed (because even if they are the same breed, there are differences between them).

The problem is that there are almost no working bred Groens or Tervs and almost no show bred Malis. There's one kennel that breeds working Groens and most of the dogs they have bred have done the mental description, but I can't find any videos. There are a couple of kennels that breed show Malis, but most of their dogs haven't done the mental description and I can't find videos of those that have.

But if you want a comparison of show bred and working bred of the same breed, here are some videos of show bred and working bred German Shepherds.

Show bred German Shepherd:
Xoxie MH del1. - YouTube
Xoxie MH del2. - YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9exVxshTE80

Working line German Shepherd:
Molars Spexa - Mentalbeskrivning - YouTube


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> >>working dogs are better at working>>
> 
> what work ?? WHAT WORK ? what dog earns a living or has an activity that is WORK ??? other than dog for the blind ???
> 
> ...


Sorry, but the work that working gundogs do is very much alive and not a thing of the past. In fact, I'd say it is even more popular today. In the past it was the privilege of the gentry and wealthy. Not so now - you will find people from all backgrounds out. And in the UK, our field trials (competition) are done on shoot days and try to replicate a days shooting as near as possible.

The fact that many of the gundog breeds (particularly the retrievers) are a popular choice for other types of 'work' is down to the versatility and biddability of the breeds, but this was not their original function.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> >>working dogs are better at working>>
> 
> what work ?? WHAT WORK ? what dog earns a living or has an activity that is WORK ??? other than dog for the blind ???
> 
> ...


Did you see the photographs of working sheepdogs I put up earlier? These are dogs that work for a living. A shepherd's job would be impossible without these dogs.

Here is another working dog - a police dog! A police dog handler's job would be made rather difficult without a good working dog in the equation! Here is said highly trained working dog also taking part in a Regional Police Dog Trial.










I live on a farm that forms part of a large shooting estate. All the gamekeepers here own gundogs of all varieties - GWP, spaniels, Labradors. All these dogs are working dogs.

There are many different types of working dogs - not just guide and therapy dogs!


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

the definition of WORKING DOGS...


before i leave again...of course there are some sheepdogs left, a VERY SMALL NUMBER compared to several hundred years ago of course so ALL the SHEEPDOGS of those breeds existing today are NOT NEEDED for sheepwork 

I do not consider IPO Schutzhund activitites of amateurs doing a sport of having dogs jump on peoples arms to attack them as WORK no

this is a SPORT developêd by humans and they cross bred dogs to get stronger jaws so of course they are not really belgian shepherds 

off now

oh just saw some pics of alsations with POLICE...yes POLICE ! not amateurs teaching their dogs to attack humans for a sport !!! off now

but the point is again....the police dogs and sheep working dogs are the MINORITY of dogs that actually WORK for a living. training other dogs to do these activities is in the case of police type work danerous and unsuitable for dogs in the hands of the public. the selection for caractere done by police is strict, it is not as is the case of amateurs a case of just paying a dogclub to train the dog. many are rejected in the selection process of the police. just being an alsation or border colley does not make all dogs suitable...so why pretend those intended for other purposes should be taught things the minority do ? and certainly not the biting arm sport which as i repeat changed the nature and physique of belgian shepherds from the border colley type to different dogs to ORIGINS

can someone more MODERN and USEFUL show us a WORKING DOG FOR THE BLIND OR THERAPY pictures here to get us into the future hey ? all this macho is making me YAWN OFF ! i dont need a sports car to feel important or a dog that attacks others to order either !

ps before i go off...i read the opening post here saying someone found an IPO qualified dog lacking DRIVE ! lol ! probably because he was waiting as trained at some amateur club to attack to order !!! lol !!! my neighbours jack russel like my dogs does not wait for orders to attack if someone waves aggressively a stick at him or owner ! lol !!! now i dont want replies of EXPERTS telling me a dog needs to be in control of handler to attack as they train them etc etc i really dont want to go into that all i say is dogs attacking people comes naturally without expensive training or certificates to many dogs and i think the majority need help controlling this NATURAL INSTINCT OF ALL DOGS in public rather than training in how to use it. sigh. having a diploma in it proves nothing more than idiocy time wasting to me when visiting people to have dogs be nice to them who are alone in homes would be more useful to society and the dogs .


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Vicki said:


> English is not my first language and it's absolutely possible that my English isn't good enough to make myself understood and/or understand others. The reason I became a member here was to practice my English, which I know is not perfect.


Your English is excellent Vicki!


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> the definition of WORKING DOGS...
> 
> before i leave again...of course there are some sheepdogs left, a VERY SMALL NUMBER compared to several hundred years ago of course so ALL the SHEEPDOGS of those breeds existing today are NOT NEEDED for sheepwork
> 
> ...


Police dogs and sheepdogs may be in the minority when you consider just how many dogs there are in the UK (for example). I am privileged enough to have been able to spend much time around both.

One of the key factors in this discussion, for me at least, is that people who understand and care for the future of the working breed they choose to own understand that, while police and sheepdogs are in the minority, the breeds that make up the police and sheepdogs (GSD, Malinois and Border Collies respectively) still hold all the inherent traits, behaviours and drives to be able to perform such work. Therefore these owners, who cannot use their dogs for every day work such as police work or shepherding, channel their dogs enthusiasm, instinct and drive into a sport or activity (the dog doesn't know it is not work!) that keeps the working breed's brain engaged, active and stimulates the dog and therefore keeps him satisfied and mentally and physically healthy.

The working dog should not be diluted to serve purpose as a pet imo - and that is why, way back in this thread, I said that in this far from ideal world, it is probably better to have two varieties of working breeds, in order that those who want a pet/companion dog or a dog to show can own the breed they choose to without having to worry about strong instincts and drive in their dogs, that they would be unable to satisfy.

Also, just a quick note on the dogs that train in IPO - as far as I am aware, only dogs of impeccable temperament, steady nerve and with a sociable temperament will get anywhere in this sport. It is not a sport suited to dogs with weak nerve and a fearful disposition. All dogs have teeth and can bite, a sport such as IPO controls that bite and, it would therefore follow that these trained dogs are much safer to be around than a fearful, nervous dog who has no control over his bite. Just my thoughts.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elles said:


> Oh, having seen what my dog did, I would say (though I could be wrong) he could have gone to farm work and probably loved it. He was an adult dog by then, if he'd seen sheep at all previously it would be only from a distance.
> 
> So, Spellweaver, take your adult show collies to a sheep farm and see how they do? If it's in them, they should do what my dog did I would've thought, unless he was exceptional, which of course I thought he was.
> 
> I wouldn't bet against them tbh. You never know.


Good move not to bet that show border collies can't herd sheep - the fact that show border collies have passed herding tests would mean you would lose your money if you did.

Putting to one side the fact that I would not let my dogs harrass sheep like yours did  (ok I know you were young and that you wouldn''t do it now) - if I wanted to prove my border collies' herding ability I would let them take the herding test. But why should I? I don't need proof of their inherent abilities; I see the proof them every day. It's only the "show dogs can't possibly have working abilities" snobs on here that don't believe it and quite frankly, they are welcome to their own misguided opinions. It's no skin off my nose if they want to believe this nonsense. I have already said I have neither the time nor the money nor the inclination to send my dogs for herding tests just so that I can say, "I told you so" to the usual suspects on here.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Posting and dashing as I'm afraid I've got a dreaded lurgy and need to sleep, but for the person that pointed out that working dogs are in the minority, that is also partly because our modern lifestyle allows pet dogs to be kept, something that didn't happen in the past. And when you look at the quality of life some pet dogs have, I'm not entirely sure that it's a good thing. For some, the minute they can't afford their *beloved* pet, it goes into a rescue centre, or they try and cash in on it by breeding from it/them. 

There may be less working dogs in comparison to pets these days, but that's not all down to the demise of the working dog, more to do with a huge change in lifestyles.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Of course I didn't 'let' my dog do anything and he didn't harass any sheep. 

Yours may harass sheep if put into a similar situation I don't know, but don't assume mine did just because yours would. 

:devil::lol:

If he was still alive(he'd be famous and in the guinness book of records), I wouldn't use him to rescue sheep from drowning and flattening each other in a stream, but only because I'd be worried that the farmer might shoot him and I'd rather the sheep drowned than my dog was shot. 

Bloody stupid keeping sheep in a field with a bank to a river anyway if you ask me. :shocked:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elles said:


> I would say so, or why would people in the know recommend the show version of a breed as a pet, rather than the working version?


Through ignorance? 

In much the same way as some people say all show dogs are unhealthy? 

I know people with border collies from working lines who are so laid back they are horizontal, and people with border collies from show lines who are hyper. Only fools generalise.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Hmmm. I don't think people were saying all show dogs are placid and all working dogs are manic, I think they were saying you were more likely to find a suitable pet from show lines than working lines.

If you were doing your research, it might not be helpful going around a bunch of farms looking at puppies' parents to see which are quieter, more friendly and more placid and suitable as a pet, I'd agree you'd have more chance looking at show lines if you want to look at temperament, as temperament is supposedly bred for in show line dogs and not so much in working dogs, where working ability and stamina might be more important.

It's still a crap shoot though, I'd guess you'd just be hedging your bets?


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Through ignorance?
> 
> In much the same way as some people say all show dogs are unhealthy?
> 
> I know people with border collies from working lines who are so laid back they are horizontal, *and people with border collies from show lines who are hyper*. Only fools generalise.


And a hyper dog does not necessarily make a good working dog


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

lets not generalise ok

what percentage of dogs do any work herding police or anything else ? the minority by far of the numbers of dogs in those breeds said to be purposed for it

very big minority like ? off the top of my head i would say oh 20 percent ! the majority are pets

now not all borders are fit to herd as not all malinois are fit to be guard dogs for professionals

one cannot generalise about a breed to fit all the dogs in it but that does not make those that are not fit to herd or be police dogs not good dogs of that breed

and those of amateurs not police training as stated via private clubs their dogs to do attack work that is unnecessry unless a police person is stupîd and wrong and selction of those breeds doing such attack unecessary work meant wrong breeding took place changing the nature of the sheepdogs that the belgian shepherd once was historically

and for sure if the working dog enthusiasts had their way loads more high drive dogs would be in shelters as an obsessive nature is a nightmare for most modern lifestyles the sports some have time to do with dogs are not available to all to do

all dogs need activity mental and physical unless breeds bred to have short legs hardly breath when they walk to suit human needs

all dogs will chew things up if bored

there is no difference in that for so called working dogs or show dogs which seems to be yes an issue to differentiate dogs on here

i see no praise in creating dogs that were shepherds into biting attacking sport dogs to occupy them ! there are other things to do ! ball chasing even ! but hey that is not macho enough ???

i had a border for three weeks only once...a farm origin dog...it was a nightmare and many are in rescues due to their high drive needs and agitated states if unoccupied...that is cruel to dogs so yes they need activity it is a question of what activity ! and the excessive high drive dogs are not confined to borders or working dogs ! terriers all kinds of dogs have behaviour issues if bored ! 

the alsation was a good shepherd dog ! became a good police dog ! not the show dogs but that was more about incorrect standard due to ignoring health of a dog generally than selection not based on alsation bloodlines.

i cease, the therapy work dogs can do and other activities are more important that any obsession with so called breed specific work of past history and for sure the belgian breed as stated was outcrossed and selcted for the sport of amateurs not police as those dogs are the minority. the belgian shepherd original like the alsation would fail in modern shows and modern biting sports. humans have changed the definition and purpose of those breeds and imply the dogs owned by the majorit of those dog owners should pass tests for things no normal person wants from a dog today and certainly the eighty percent of dogs do not do as an activity.

ps before i bought my belgian, i went to look in shelter, there was an alsation and i thought oh yes but it was alone in a cage unapproachable ex guard dog of private person...no way did i want that raving foaming at mouth neurotic...and this is typical of dogs ending up due to private amateurs not police training them to be um what is the word working dogs ? no way jose and poor dogs


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Moobli said:


> Your English is excellent Vicki!


Thank you


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I think I lost the plot of the thread lol But I agree that working lines should not just be pets, I don't think it's fair on the dog if they are high drive, unless people are going to put them to work. Hence me loving the working line GSD's but not going for one, BUT in the same breath, I know lots of Rottweiler breeders who also show, that compete with their dogs also, and a fair amount of GSD breeders do the same, so I don't think it's fair to say that ALL show lines are not going to be able to work, ok so most show GSD's look like bags of crap imho, but they are still doing some work, even if it's a diluted form of "work"

One of the reason for this thread was to debate the "Show dogs are unfit and useless mentality of some", and what I find really weird if most of the people who are "vocal" about how unfit, unhealthy and not fit for function the show dogs are have been very very quiet on this thread.

I honestly do feel that for some people the show world will never be able to do right for doing wrong, and that no matter what is put in place to "better" some breeds that's it's never going to be good enough.

On a side bar, I'm a bit shocked how ignorant some people are about "Sports" dog. Christ and as a female who would work her dog if she could, I'm a bit concerned about the "macho" bit, ok not exactly a girlie girl but macho pffft come on... that's me buggered then Rott's and GSD how macho can you get.. Stupid comment....


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Vicky the reason you do not know of many working kennels of the other varietioes of BSD is because they are NOT artificially split in the way that the so called Working Mally crowd do - we are still producing the versatile dog that the breed was originally.

her are some of dogs of my own breeding

Queezle - working Search and rescue dog










Angel his sister -a therapy dog also has won 2cc's and 2 res CC's in the show ring










Kelly another litter sister - great family pet










Hawk -half brother 1 CC 1 res CC best puppy at Crufts










and their mum Bijou - Therapy dog extrodinaire !










..can I just add how great it is to hear the views of those outside of the UK - kudos to you for debating with such fluency in a different language :cornut:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> lets not generalise ok
> 
> what percentage of dogs do any work herding police or anything else ? the minority by far of the numbers of dogs in those breeds said to be purposed for it
> 
> ...


Feja, my Labrador did bite work as a youngster, and she still loves tracking to this day; she's a mainly show bred Labrador. She has a superb temperament, has been used to socialise other dogs and pups, yet I can't use her as a PAT dog as I don't have her vaccinated annually.

My other bitch didn't like working trials, and that's how I got started with the gundog stuff, although it utilises some of the same skills, basic obedience, good nose, control over a distance, she just did not want to know when it came to working trials training. The minute I switched training with her, it was as if it set off a little switch in her brain, she's not at all up to the drive and standard of a field trial dog, but even so, working with her gave me the desire to do more.

I will not have an easy time of it with her daughter, because she has very little biddability, but that's partly down to my choice in the sire as I didn't want to lose type and do plan to introduce more ability in the future, if I carry on breeding. With Rhuna, my flatcoated retriever who is dual purpose bred, the biddability is very much in there, along with marking and hunting an area, which can sometimes be taught but if it isn't natural then I have found personally that it really is more difficult, and you never get the same feeling you're working with what your dog was bred to do.

You can even see the difference between the two breeds, Rhuna will hunt an area head high until she catches the scent, as she is an air scenter, Labradors are ground scenters. If you value your breed as a whole, then those specifics are incredibly important; some people might wonder and say what's the difference if a dog holds it's head up or down to hunt, I'd tell them to go and watch, and then understand the difference. In the same way the spaniels were bred to work in a similar manner, but they each have their own breed specific traits when working, cockers work a tighter pattern than springers, and that's what is marked at field trials, not just the success at flushing, sitting steady, and retrieving, but the action of the dog overall and how it works. Because that, along with the difference in conformation, coat etc, is what makes that dog breed *that* when it comes to working breeds.

Otherwise we may as well just all own the generic medium sized outcrossed heinz57 dog that *some* think is what we should aim for in any case.


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## Vicki (Jul 28, 2009)

Moobli said:


> And a hyper dog does not necessarily make a good working dog


No, a hyper dog is usually a stressed dog. But it's often confused with drive, usually among people that do some kind of sport with their dog.

My dog is very laid back and indoors she's mostly curled up or upside down on the sofa or the bed:







There's no problem to work nights because even if she's has slept all night when I had to be awake she doesn't hesitate to go to bed and sleep another 5-6 hours when I get home.

But if I want to work with her she's not at all laid back:









In my experience, dogs that are sufficiently stimulated are laid back (when they don't have anything to do), while hyper dogs often are under stimulated or over stimulated.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> amateurs training their dogs to jump and hand onto sleeves of humans do not have to meet this law.
> 
> *That is the point I wanted to clarify as I happen to know many people who compete in Campagne, Monidoring, French Ring, IPO in France and they definitely do NOT muzzle their dogs in public.*
> 
> ...


BTW I am not macho at all, that is YOUR label, but then your prejudices are fully evident in your posts.

It is YOU that keeps ON and ON (along with Bijou) about ATTACK dogs and HANGING OFF AN ARM, not those of us who own Working Line Dogs of various breeds which compete in various sports a PART of which is protection.

We have dogs which are well balanced and also have to prove their ability in nosework and obedience and agility, yet you focus on one SECTION of the sport(s).

But the good news is, that YOU do not have to own ANY breed that you do not want to; neither do you have to train your dog to compete in any discipline that you do not want to.

I have no idea about dog bite stats in France but here in the UK I have not read ANY press release; seen any TV news item concerning ANY sports dog (and by that I mean one that competes in IPO/Working Trials/Mondioring etc) biting anyone they should not.

I have, however read MANY reports of dogs of ALL breeds biting people who have NOT been trained in these disciplines.

I have also seen the statistics of innocent members of the public that have been bitten by "true working dogs" ie POLICE dogs.

So statistically speaking Members of the Public are SAFER with IPO dogs than pet dogs or police dogs.

Weird eh?

Shows how the FACTS differ from perceptions and OPINIONS.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> humans have changed the definition and purpose of those breeds


But humans were the ones who also created breeds for specific jobs in the first place.

Genuine questions ... how useful were BSD as herding dogs in the past (really)? Are there any working (sheep herding) BSD out there now? Were the qualities for police/protection/guard work seen in the BSD (Malinois) from the breed's early history, like the GSD?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Bijou said:


> Groenendael and Tervueren are NOT the show bred varieties of BSD - pups I've bred have work as SAR and therapy dogs - they do agility, flyball, obedience and HWTM they also corect enough examples of their breed to win in the show ring - they remain the ORIGINAL versatile BSD as do most of the Malinois I know- it is only this small group of what THEY call working Malinois that are changing the temperament of this variety ( which is what the piece you've quoted from me is about )- their definition of work is restricted to IPO type of activities despite the fact that the BSD is capable of so much more - in fact so extreme do they want this new type of Malinois to be that they are crossing it with other breeds to increase their macho appeal.
> 
> It's complete nonsense to call ONLY these Malinois the 'working' BSD- I specialise in producing dogs that are suitable as Therapy dogs for kids with autism and currently have three dogs doing this work - explain how this is not JUST as valid a definition of working ability as all the stupid macho posturing that goes with ring sports ?


Lots of dogs of lots of breeds PARTICIPATE in activities, fewer actually COMPETE, especially at the highest level; there is a difference.

I could PARTICIPATE in Breed Showing, but if I never got placed with my dog, that is hardly an advertisement is it?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Show Border Collie Herding Test - The Kennel Club

Border Collie Herding Test - in detail - The Kennel Club

Only one run most years, not a great uptake considering and how many actually pass?

Not many. Only one the first year.

I also believe but may have this wrong (not understanding show classes) that only 5 collies were entered at Crufts under working dog or herding test dog!! 

The tests have been running since 2007 I believe, so not many show dog people seem interested. Good on those that do


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Crufts Results for Border Collies in the two "Working" classes

Dogs

Special Working Trial - Dog 
Entries: 3 Abs: 1 1st LITTLETHORN ROLLS ROYCE AT BROOKSBID CDEX UDEX (MRS J E LLOYD)

2nd SHELTYSHAM SO ESOTERIC CDEX, UDEX (MS D M WHITING)

3rd WOOLRAM LOTHARIO CDEX UDEX WDEX AWB (MRS H DONNELLY)

Special Show Border Collie Herding Test - Dog 
Entries: 2 Abs: 0 1st LITTLETHORN COLT AT TOBERMORAYJW/SBCHT (MRS R SPENCER)

2nd BRAINS¦N BEAUTY MY OH TU KAEN DU [ATC AQ00444DEU] (MRS GRAMMENZ)

Bitches

Special Show Border Collie Herding Test - Bitch 
Entries: 1 Abs: 0 1st LITTLETHORN QASHQAI (MR B W & MRS S A KILSBY)

Talking of collies and their suitability (or not) for Protection work, in 2011 a friend of mine's bitch was placed 3rd in the WT class with

WT CH LAETARE LEFT IN THE DARK AT SAMDAIS CDEX UDEX WDEX TDEX PDEX BEGEX


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Lots of dogs of lots of breeds PARTICIPATE in activities, fewer actually COMPETE, especially at the highest level; there is a difference.
> 
> I could PARTICIPATE in Breed Showing, but if I never got placed with my dog, that is hardly an advertisement is it?


An advertisement for what?

I know of a breedline of Goldens that compete at the highest level in Field Trials, they are brilliant and have been honed to perfection, but hardly any true gundog handler would want one, they are just too hot!!

Winning and competition does not always reflect the best dogs for the "jobs" they do


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> An advertisement for what?
> 
> I know of a breedline of Goldens that compete at the highest level in Field Trials, they are brilliant and have been honed to perfection, but hardly any true gundog handler would want one, they are just too hot!!
> 
> Winning and competition does not always reflect the best dogs for the "jobs" they do


Ah, TRUE gundog handlers obviously do not compete in Field Trials then? 

How funny.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Moobli said:


> And a hyper dog does not necessarily make a good working dog


I didn't say it did. If you actually follow the thread, the reply you are talking about was in response to Elles' post about dogs from working lines and show lines being suitable for *PET *dogs.

Please stop trying to make out I'm saying something I am not.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> lets not generalise ok


Like you have about folks who participate in SchH and other bite sports? 

Kind of off topic of the thread, but on topic for the derail, my friend has a rescued pit bull who has her BH, is working towards (or may already have) her SchH1, and is also a certified therapy dog and canine good citizen 

Putting biting on cue does not make a dangerous dog.
Nor does putting jumping on cue create a dog who runs around jumping things willy-nilly.
Nor does teaching a dog to herd create a dog that starts trying to herd eveything that moves.
Nor does teaching a dog to retrieve create a dog that starts grabbing anything he can get his mouth on to bring it back to you.
That's not how training works


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2013)

Moobli said:


> And a hyper dog does not necessarily make a good working dog


Nope...

This article may be of interest in the breeding part of the discussion.

Drive and brakes and steering | Suzanne Clothier


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> Show Border Collie Herding Test - The Kennel Club
> 
> Border Collie Herding Test - in detail - The Kennel Club
> 
> ...


The figures you quoted are out of date (they only go up to part-way through 2010) which was why I hadn't already quoted them even though they are the only figures avialable at the moment. In addition, they do not show how many entered and what the pass-fail rate is - only the ones that have passed.

Putting all that to one side, however, one of the reasons that there is not a great uptake is that most show people feel as I do - ie they observe their dogs' inherent breed instincts every day and don't feel the need to spend money and time to take a test just so they can say "I told you so!" to the "working dogs are much better than show dogs" snobs. Hell, unles they come on forums such as this one, they don't even encounter the snobs - they won't even know you exist!!

As for the Crufts entry figures - how do you know that there are not dogs in other classes that have also passed the herding test? (The answer is: you don't).


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Meezey said:


> One of the reason for this thread was to debate the "Show dogs are unfit and useless mentality of some", and what I find really weird if most of the people who are "vocal" about how unfit, unhealthy and not fit for function the show dogs are have been very very quiet on this thread.
> 
> I honestly do feel that for some people the show world will never be able to do right for doing wrong, and that no matter what is put in place to "better" some breeds that's it's never going to be good enough.


Well said!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> The figures you quoted are out of date (they only go up to part-way through 2010) which was why I hadn't already quoted them even though they are the only figures avialable at the moment. In addition, they do not show how many entered and what the pass-fail rate is - only the ones that have passed.
> 
> Putting all that to one side, however, one of the reasons that there is not a great uptake is that most show people feel as I do - ie they observe their dogs' inherent breed instincts every day and don't feel the need to spend money and time to take a test just so they can say "I told you so!" to the "working dogs are much better than show dogs" snobs. Hell, unles they come on forums such as this one, they don't even encounter the snobs - they won't even know you exist!!
> 
> As for the Crufts entry figures - how do you know that there are not dogs in other classes that have also passed the herding test? (The answer is: you don't).


That's a bit unecessarily harsh? Understanding that a show dog and working dog are different animals, and neither can necessarily compete at each other's sphere is not being a snob, it's being realistic. If that's the case I'm a show snob and a working dog snob, since I'm involved with both!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Meezey said:


> One of the reason for this thread was to debate the "Show dogs are unfit and useless mentality of some", and what I find really weird if most of the people who are "vocal" about how unfit, unhealthy and not fit for function the show dogs are have been very very quiet on this thread.
> 
> I honestly do feel that for some people the show world will never be able to do right for doing wrong, and that no matter what is put in place to "better" some breeds that's it's never going to be good enough.


That's not true for me, I'm very vocal about show and working bred dogs that aren't good examples. I was very vocal about the RBIS at Crufts this year, I don't know anyone who liked that dog except a few show Labrador people, but even many of those didn't feel that he was the second best dog out of 20,000.

I've also been told to get anywhere in the show ring with Zasa I'd have to put weight on her, which I will not do just for the sake of it. She's fit as a fiddle, a little ratbag as well, but I'm working on that bit. But I don't show my dogs because I just want to win, I show my dogs because I believe in a good fit working example of the breed, that's not overdone, nor too light or snipey. It's not what gets rewarded in the show ring, but then I could spit my dummy out (no pun intended) and not be involved at all, which is what happens for the most part on both sides and is why we have such a huge divide in many working gundog breeds. Everyone sits there saying 'I'm right, you're wrong' and no-one is willing to ever compromise and admit that perhaps their dog has looks over ability, or the working folks just couldn't give a hoot in any case as their dogs do what they were bred to do. If that carries on in the show/working world then they might as well be completely separate breeds, many of them already are pretty much.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's a bit unecessarily harsh? Understanding that a show dog and working dog are different animals, and neither can necessarily compete at each other's sphere is not being a snob, it's being realistic. If that's the case I'm a show snob and a working dog snob, since I'm involved with both!


No, not harsh, merely reflecting the things people have said on this thread and on other threads in the past. It *is* snobbery to refuse to acknowledge that show dogs have an inherent working ability - just as it would be snobbery for a show exhibitor to refuse to acknowledge that working dogs cannot be called labs, cockers etc just because in some cases they don't look like their show counterparts.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's not true for me, I'm very vocal about show and working bred dogs that aren't good examples. I was very vocal about the RBIS at Crufts this year, I don't know anyone who liked that dog except a few show Labrador people, but even many of those didn't feel that he was the second best dog out of 20,000.
> 
> I've also been told to get anywhere in the show ring with Zasa I'd have to put weight on her, which I will not do just for the sake of it. She's fit as a fiddle, a little ratbag as well, but I'm working on that bit. But I don't show my dogs because I just want to win, I show my dogs because I believe in a good fit working example of the breed, that's not overdone, nor too light or snipey. It's not what gets rewarded in the show ring, but then I could spit my dummy out (no pun intended) and not be involved at all, which is what happens for the most part on both sides and is why we have such a huge divide in many working gundog breeds. Everyone sits there saying 'I'm right, you're wrong' and no-one is willing to ever compromise and admit that perhaps their dog has looks over ability, or the working folks just couldn't give a hoot in any case as their dogs do what they were bred to do. If that carries on in the show/working world then they might as well be completely separate breeds, many of them already are pretty much.


I agree totally, and not just working and show breeds, I know that even in the show breeds people will only show under certain judges that like their "type" of show breed. This rate for many breeds there will be two show breeds and a working breed...  :frown2:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> No, not harsh, merely reflecting the things people have said on this thread and on other threads in the past. It *is* snobbery to refuse to acknowledge that show dogs have an inherent working ability - just as it would be snobbery for a show exhibitor to refuse to acknowledge that working dogs cannot be called labs, cockers etc just because in some cases they don't look like their show counterparts.


Well then I'm a snob, because in my experience, show bred Labradors and flatcoats do not have the inherent ability that I have seen in their working bred counter parts. My personal experience of show bred Labradors is that not only do they not have the same inherent ability, but in some isntances it's difficult to train them to work because traits such as a hard mouth and noisiness have crept in, not things that are considered by most breeding show Labradors. If you look at any post regarding flatcoats, you will no doubt see how giddy they are, where as in reality, although they are a slow maturing breed, a working bred flatcoat is very different to a show bred flatcoat.

So if it makes me a snob because I look at the whole picture and understand the working side and the show side, and accept the faults that both have, then so be it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I agree totally, and not just working and show breeds, I know that even in the show breeds people will only show under certain judges that like their "type" of show breed. This rate for many breeds there will be two show breeds and a working breed...  :frown2:


It goes on in both spheres unfortunately, if you get on the wrong side of a competition judge then you may struggle with your dog(s).

Rhuna's breeder got someone to take one of her dogs in the ring for her because she knew the judge wouldn't place a dog with her on the end of the lead. The dog got either 3rd or 4th with the *different* handler, sad really, it should be about the dogs but that gets forgotten.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Ah, TRUE gundog handlers obviously do not compete in Field Trials then?
> 
> How funny.


Off course they do......what's the matter with you, do you have to pick holes where there aren't any?

I was remarking on one line of Goldies that are hot. They are bred to be Field Trial dogs.

I knew a ESS field trial dog too that the owner would not work on a shoot because it would ruin it! The guy had his working dogs and his trialing dogs


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> Off course they do......what's the matter with you, do you have to pick holes where there aren't any?
> 
> I was remarking on one line of Goldies that are hot. They are bred to be Field Trial dogs.
> 
> I knew a ESS field trial dog too that the owner would not work on a shoot because it would ruin it! The guy had his working dogs and his trialing dogs


A lot of people who trial their dogs won't work them on shoots, it's almost a different world between working and competing with your gundog, which is worrying!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> The figures you quoted are out of date (they only go up to part-way through 2010) which was why I hadn't already quoted them even though they are the only figures avialable at the moment. In addition, they do not show how many entered and what the pass-fail rate is - only the ones that have passed.
> 
> Putting all that to one side, however, one of the reasons that there is not a great uptake is that most show people feel as I do - ie they observe their dogs' inherent breed instincts every day and don't feel the need to spend money and time to take a test just so they can say "I told you so!" to the "working dogs are much better than show dogs" snobs. Hell, unles they come on forums such as this one, they don't even encounter the snobs - they won't even know you exist!!
> 
> As for the Crufts entry figures - how do you know that there are not dogs in other classes that have also passed the herding test? (The answer is: you don't).


:lol::lol::lol:

You are funny.

I get so much entertainment from these threads

There are many good show people out there, some even on this forum. Pity you feel the need to detract from them by your insults


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Just thought I would add. In tollers the limit bitch winner at Crufts was also in the gamekeepers classes and is a working gundog, not really a show dog.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> You are funny.
> 
> ...




Please explain why you think the truth is funny? Rather than attacking, if you state why you think my post is funny - ie what you find to laugh at in what I've posted - then your posts would be a lot more meaningful instead of being mere digs at me.

Please explain why you think I detract from show people on the forum by saying that most border collie show people don't even know the snobs on this forum exist? Please explain why you even *think* I feel the need to detract from the show people on this forum? I've never heard such a load of twaddle.

I bet you can't explain and I bet that, as usual, you don't answer this post because you never do when I ask you to prove the insults you throw my way. You just ignore the posts because you don't have a reason for what you say, other than being nasty. Speaks volumes, does that.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> A lot of people who trial their dogs won't work them on shoots, it's almost a different world between working and competing with your gundog, which is worrying!!


Actually, to be pedantic, they do 'work' their trialling dogs on shoots as they need the experience, expecially at the top. You couldn't take a dog to a trial that has had no experience of a shoot. However, the difference is that they are very selective on which retrieves they will send them for and use it mainly as a training exercise so they have other non trialling dogs (or those that have already made the grade) in their team to do the a lot of the work.

Having said that, I know a lot of people who work their trialling dogs as much as any other.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> It is snobbery to refuse to acknowledge that show dogs have an inherent working ability


In my breed it's not snobbery, just a fact! 
There are show dogs that work, but they fall short and cannot compete with their working counterparts. Those that have started gundog work with a show bred dog invariably get a working dog for their next dog unless they have a particular liking for show and have no desire to go further than the basics as far as gundog work goes. In fact, I was talking to just one such owner last week who has said she has noticed the huge difference and the struggles she has, so her next dog will be working bred.

That's not to say workers are better dogs - they are simply better at working. My breed has a huge variety of types, probably due to the popularity. From field trial to show to pet. I'm not one who sits in the one 'type' camp and I think there are room for all the 'types'. I have my preference as I'm sure others do. I am also realistic to the limitations each type has. As long as you know your dog's limitations as well as it's attributes, where is the problem?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Actually, to be pedantic, they do 'work' their trialling dogs on shoots as they need the experience, expecially at the top. You couldn't take a dog to a trial that has had no experience of a shoot. However, the difference is that they are very selective on which retrieves they will send them for and use it mainly as a training exercise so they have other non trialling dogs (or those that have already made the grade) in their team to do the a lot of the work.
> 
> Having said that, I know a lot of people who work their trialling dogs as much as any other.


But the top people often have their own shoots that are geared exclusively to dog training. 
Both of the people that I am talking about had their own ground 

The Clumber people have their own shoot. My friend has worked/trained her dogs there several times.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

rona said:


> But the top people often have their own shoots that are geared exclusively to dog training.
> Both of the people that I am talking about had their own ground
> 
> The Clumber people have their own shoot. My friend has worked/trained her dogs there several times.


I agree - and others go on those training days (at a price that makes my eyes water  ), but many still do take their dogs out on normal working days too, to give them the experience. Usually as part of a team, they may just sit them up and only do one or two carefully chosen retrieves, and they may not go out every time, but they still need that experience especially at the top. There are so many people competing now, from all walks or life, and many of those don't have their own grounds and shoots (even if most wish they did  ), so taking them out to work with their normal team is gives them experience.

And then, there are those who will pick up with their dogs as normal and trial them too.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

As above. An extremely popular FTCH Lab picks up 3 times a week on a very hectic commercial shoot, in a team of four dogs that also includes two FTWs and a gung-ho cocker. That dog has qualified for the champs twice but is still earns his keep picking up.

There's no substitute for experience!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Actually, to be pedantic, they do 'work' their trialling dogs on shoots as they need the experience, expecially at the top. You couldn't take a dog to a trial that has had no experience of a shoot. However, the difference is that they are very selective on which retrieves they will send them for and use it mainly as a training exercise so they have other non trialling dogs (or those that have already made the grade) in their team to do the a lot of the work.
> 
> Having said that, I know a lot of people who work their trialling dogs as much as any other.





shamykebab said:


> As above. An extremely popular FTCH Lab picks up 3 times a week on a very hectic commercial shoot, in a team of four dogs that also includes two FTWs and a gung-ho cocker. That dog has qualified for the champs twice but is still earns his keep picking up.
> 
> There's no substitute for experience!


There may be no substitute for experience, but there are numerous people I've come across who do not take their trialling dogs out picking up, and if they do, they can sometimes make themselves unwelcome by treating it as a training day rather than working their dogs as they are meant to ie picking and choosing the retrieves for their dogs.

There is a firm belief amongst some competitors that trialling is (or is becoming) a separate *sport* from shooting, which is not how it should be, but it's the way it's going with some people.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

shamykebab said:


> As above. An extremely popular FTCH Lab picks up 3 times a week on a very hectic commercial shoot, in a team of four dogs that also includes two FTWs and a gung-ho cocker. That dog has qualified for the champs twice but is still earns his keep picking up.
> 
> There's no substitute for experience!


Is the "boss" or Gamekeeper of the shoot into field trials?

There's nothing more frustrating than working alongside someone who cares more about their dogs performance than a suffering wounded creature, or being in the beating line with a spaniel that's not allowed to break pattern even though they are holding the line back over a lightly covered piece of ground and birds are breaking out because of it.

Two things I've actually had experience of on Pheasant shoots. Admittedly the dogs were not high class trial dogs, but even so...........they were trial dogs and did get the odd award.

Then there were the two Welsh springer that were ace!!


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> There may be no substitute for experience, but there are numerous people I've come across who do not take their trialling dogs out picking up, and if they do, they can sometimes make themselves unwelcome by treating it as a training day rather than working their dogs as they are meant to ie picking and choosing the retrieves for their dogs.
> 
> There is a firm belief amongst some competitors that trialling is (or is becoming) a separate *sport* from shooting, which is not how it should be, but it's the way it's going with some people.


It seems that this could also be the way that border collies are going. The best dogs can work the hill and trial, but too many now are simply trial dogs and never get the experience of *proper* work.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

<<I have also seen the statistics of innocent members of the public that have been bitten by "true working dogs" ie POLICE dogs.

So statistically speaking Members of the Public are SAFER with IPO dogs than pet dogs or police dogs.>>

quotation...now made without the said statistics i note...the generalisation statement that shocks here is the bit saying the public is SAFER with amateur ipo trained dogs that those used and trained by the POLICE !!

i cannot believe i am seeing this statement !

i made the point amateurs meaning non professionals dogs trained in ipo biting sport do not have to meet law to wear muzzle in public which the profesisonal dogs have to in FRance !

the law in fr stating all dogs must be on leads in public places exists also

and living here in fr i have met people who have admitted that dogs trained for amateurs in the mordant sport became problems off leads to joggers as they wear similar clothing. i am not claiming to have the overall statistics, otherwise i would quote them, i just know the LAWS relevant and the law stating it is against the law to have dogs off leads in public places covers risks to joggers of being run after ! the law was not brought in for no reason !

just because a stranger met in a wood utters the first perception in his mind of my breed due to image of attack dogs rather than sheepdogs does not make him or others similar an ignoramus or idiot as suggested ! that is just saying anyone not having ones own opinion must be ignorant or idiot !

lol !

so maybe i by hasard just meet idiots ! lol ! that is possible ! i didnt find the man stupid i add, just an ordinary man, not of course educated in the minority proud to have attack dog skills of those not actually needing dogs to attack anyone as that is against the law also anywhere unless a police or professional. the stats about police dogs biting people made also indicate that if the highest trained professional dogs are sometimes not reliable then we should stop priding ourselves on having perfectly under control dogs at all times as not even the POLICE would make such an arrogant claim for a dog well trained.

i cease my perceived ignorant uneducated views on this now by just saying we have our views and all minorities with a strong view will accuse others of being just ignorant if they have another view based on speaking to other ignorant people lol !!!

the police dogs hey need more AMATEUR BITING SPORT dog experts maybe hey !!! hilarious ! all that professional training by professionals WITH A PURPOSE for having attack dogs and they get cases of bites hey !!! that to me maybe illogically supports my case that unless absolutely necessary for REAL WORK of attacking people dogs of the general and to me yes ignorant public amateurs do not need bite attack skills ! not that they are loose off leads by law to test their unprovoked attacks of course if complying with french law ! lol ! i do enjoy my comments i dont take offense at being considered ignrant, i am not like my breed of dog the belgian SENSITIVE for that at all and i train my dogs to DESENSITISE also not liking sensitive dogs or people ! lol ! i do admire gentle with people dogs useful in therapy or useful in anything however, and amateur attack dogs are not useful dogs to me as they are not allowed in reality under the law to bite and would be better training in useful to human activites.

and the point of this thread being i remind...should qualifications in certain SPORTS called WORK wrongly if the dog is not employed regularly earning its living doing that activity be part of the need to get a showdog qualification ? well call me PEDANTIC but unless a WORKING POLICE DOG or THERAPY WORKING DOG i fail to call biting qualifications for dogs work or a need for an assessment of it according to the breed standard...and yes i agree there are no more real SHEEPDOGS the term used for some breeds rather than maybe should be changed to ATTACK DOGS ? anymore for the majority of breeds anymore than there are dalmations runnign along cars or carriagesq for a living daily.

ps the MOTIVE given by those amateurs meaning the general public training their dogs to do bite attacks is they are FEARFUL and want GUARD DOGS i add. Now under the law in most places dog are not allowed to BITE even burglers i make the point. if they do get ready for the household insurance claim of recenlty informed cost to insurance company of 15 thousant GBP !

ok i edit to put the details of the law on this...if you have a SIGN sayin BEWARE OF THE DOG it helps save the dog being prosectued if you are absent and someone burgles. the dog alone in a house trained or not is not going to do anyting but his instinct. unless trained in IPO to wait for the order to attack lol !!! ecuse me i find that funny.

I must laugh adding my like many NORMAL NON BREED SPECIFIC dogs are quick to DEFEND and GUARD their cars homes owners UNTRAINED in hanging onto the arms with protective clothing of the biting sport ! lol ! that training is of no use to someone who comes up to my car window in the dark looking for sex with me in a layby as experienced, faced with the snarling untrained to aim for his sleeve dogs of mine particularly FEJA who does not like people play fighting at her in bars for fun she does not understand is play...as i answer any suggestions for sex to with MY DOG HAS ANSWERED FOR ME ! she would rip the face off anyone rather than try to get their arms ! thank god she has not been trained i say to that laughing off ! not that i allow her to bite anyone or i would end up with her put down of course ! even if in self defense of me like tbat ! under the LAW !


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2013)

LOL, yes FEJA JUODAS, clearly those amateur IPO dogs are the issue... 

[youtube_browser]dOPU5IoMTtc[/youtube_browser]​


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

May i please preceed this next long post with this statement, i really do appreciate the discussions here, some ref hunting or labrador and breeds i dont know about much are things i am learning about and i dont comment on them as i think i dont understand them much....but...and oh i dont mind at all i even ENJOY being BITTEN by comments that i or others maybe idiots for our views...call me insensitive or just liking a good argument or too much of a biting people type person but i am not offended by anything at all...and INSPIRED even having been challenged to quote STATS for things i said...yes i nearly did give some off the top of my head, like 200 000 bites by dogs per year in fRance but i hesitated as i am a numbers expert yes and hate to not CHECK things lol!!!! and to my horror found the latest bites per year in France is said officially to be 500 000 !!!

now here follows some more FOOD FOR THOUGHT and FACTS and EXPERT vIEWS as well as daring to add my comments of course lol!!! ENJOY ! not an order only if you wish to...as i reply in the USA to harassement to me by that word when giving me a coffee !!! i am not very nice really sometimes !

...........................
statistics and CANINE EXPERTS with EXPERIENCE views with explanations understandable by ordinary and expert people.

Of about 8 million dogs as pets in France only 3 PERCENT are REGISTERED PEDIGREES. so in the minority, the most POPULAR dog is the MONGREL.

PEDIGREE dog sales are currently on the increase by over 10 percent year on year, 200 000 about per year. SMALL dog breeds being on the increase.
DOG REFUGE DOGS are MASSIVELY on the increase, France has the HIGHEST NUMBER OF DOGS in percentage and Absolute numbers in refuges abandoned...about 100 000 year year are abandoned. About 50 percent are stimated to be PUT DOWN.

So the good news is ? PEDIGREES of the 3 PERCENT MINORITY of dogs in France are on a 10 PERCENT INCREASE and DOGS OF ALL BREEDS in REFUGES are on a GREATER INCREASE in percentage and absolute terms outperforming the numbers of pedigree increases easily !

Of the PEDIGREE BREEDS the popular ones are...German Shepherd 11 thousand per year, Golden Retriever 9 thousand, Malinois Belgian Shepherd variety 8 thousand, CAVALIER 7 thousand, LABRADORS 6 thousand. then all at about 6to 4 thousand per year YORKSHIRE TERRIER, ENGLISH SETTER, FRENCH BULLDOG, AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD, STAFFORDSHIRE BULLTERRIER, BRITTANY SPANIEL, CHICHUAHUA, ENGLISH COCKER SPANIEL, DACHSHUND, JACK RUSSEL.

The BELGIAN SHEPHERD TERVEUREN 2000 per year average and GROENENDAEL 500 per year average or LAEKENOIS Belgian Shepherd (the latter only being at 20 births recorded per year in fact as unfashionable in France even a rare breed everywhere i would say) are not in the top 20. Please do not get pedantic and ask if this is a mode, mean or general AVERAGE ! I am stats EXPERT but near enough to give a view is GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU i dare say smiling ! I know what specific AVERAGE i am giving here off the top of my head from recalling seeing numbers !

SO what conclusion may i DARE make based on FACTS AND FIGURES ? well of course i will say since PEDIGREE DOGS IN TOTAL Make up only 3 PERCENT of DOGS IN FRANCE, and BELGIAN SHEPHERDS in total only some 12 000 dogs per year we are talking MASSIVE MINORITY OF DOGS ! to be able to say with any GENERAL CONCLUSION THAT A BREED IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BITING HUMANS that is from an even MASSIVELY SMALLER MINORITY of BITING SPORT ENTHUSIASTS ...perceived as idiots yes with tatoos and macho attitudes in many peoples EXPERT view opinion in the DOG EXPERT WORLD i add not just ORDINARY FEARFUL PEOPLE who associate the word BELGIAN SHEPHERD with ATTACK DOG not SHEEPDOG or NICE DOG in their minds.

NOW HOW MANY QUALIFIED DOGS IN THERAPY ? WHAT BREEDS ? the public might find THOSE DOGS INTELLLIGENT USEFUL USING USEFUL SKILLS TO DOGS AND HUMANS DOGS HEY i dare suggest ???? well ??? where are the ADULATIONS of numbers of THOSE DOGS ?where is the FCI or other show dog standard setters including these qualifications for the NATURAL APTITUDE TESTS to be passed for showdogs to get show certificates ???

Do the biting sport amateurs think the instincts and natural abilities of SHEEPDOGS are ONLY SUITED TO BITING SPORT DIPLOMAS to qualify them as so called WORKING DOGS ? are not THERAPY dogs using SKILLS better for a GREATER NUMBER OF HUMANS ? LET US TALK NUMBERS OF HUMANS WHO BENEFIT FROM DOGS ACTIVITIES PLEASE THEN HEY ! because if as is the case BREED SELECTION AND PRIZE AWARDING is done on only OFFICIAL BITING SPORT QUALIFIED DOGS as is unfortunately the PUSH and TREND for my breed then YES it CHANGES THE NATURE Of the dogs ! and UNOFFICIALLY has ENOURAGED WRONGFUL OUTBREEDING WITH STRONGER JAWED dogs to get into the bloodlines of such dogs just to compete better in that sport !

Let us pass to CANINE EXPERTS rather than my UNEDUCATED views again hey ! but yes i DARE to say that when i see NO ENCOURAGEMENT of THERAPY QUALIFIED AND TRAINED DOGS for my or other breeds in favour of some UNALLOWED BY GENERAL PUBLIC use of BITING HUMANS FOR SPORT dogs it does make me think MACHO RULES OK ! and the future of the breed is in danger when the PUBLIC ORDINARY person stops even THINKING the word SHEEPDOG for a breed but ATTACK DOG !

500 000 reported bites by dogs per year in france. estimated several times higher unreported bites. Les morsures de chiens

Top bites of people dog breed LABRADOR and GERMAN SHEPHERD, 40 percent of bites by SHEEPDOG breeds in total.

YES SHEEPDOGS NIP ! can bite ! wow what a surprise ? part of their INHERENT SKILLS !!! lol !!! NOT AGGRESSING SHEEP was originally their also ORIGINAL PURPOSE may i dare remind however ! those that bit too hard were ELIMINATED from selection for SHEEPDOGS ! now we seem to have SELECTED what humans find amusing as a sport to increase their bite ! by putting BITING SPORT as a REQUISITE FOR SHOW DOG QUALIFICATIONS !!! hilarious ! but sad for dogs !

Do i dare draw a CONCLUSION FROM STATISTICS that LABRADORS being the dogs that BITE HUMANS the most in France per year are therefore the most DANGEROUS DOGS ? well no becaus with what little intelligence i have i dare think it is just because LABRADORS ARE THE GREATER NUMBER OF PEDIGREE DOGS as pets from other figures known in France ! and most trusted due to BREED REPUTATION around kids who sometimes make mistakes unsupervised with this yes highly intelligent breed of dog in my view as they seem the easiest breed to train for DIFFICULT BLIND DOG WORK for humans amoungst other skills they have ! and stupid as i am i do value intelligent dogs like that !

Now another FACT ! Some FCI countries like Switzerland allow only 2 APTITUDE QUALIFICATIONS called WORK for belgian shepherds, AGILITY and IPO BITING SPORT ! now may i point out that as for many things AGILITY is not a BREED SPECIFIC activity ! so where is the LOGIC is saying a Belgian Shepherd can be qualified by this WORK DIPLOMA if any dog can do it ? to me it is just humans wanting to make things seem scientific to try and have some activity test passed to justify giving a breed a show meets standard excellent certificate ! if you cant attend agility training with a dog you miss out on getting the diploma even if the dog is perfectly to standard ! and could like any dog do it !

Now dare i give another personal uneducated view, that once anything is not restricted to elitist breeds rather than open to all dogs it is easy to claim only those breeds are best at it ! that is logical statement. Dare i suggest if a WOLFDOG classed in PASTORAL GROUP FCI i add were allowed to do BITING SPORT it would EXCELL ! having many times greater jaw power ! but hey a JACK RUSSEL like most TERRIERS have NATURAL HOLD ON ABILITY too !!! not macho enough to get them into this sport ? not part of their NATURAL INSTINCTS ??? lol ! pull the other one !

if this is about obedience and sport all this hanging on arm stuff hey i do wonder what the ACCIDENTS IN PUBLIC STATISTICS would be if ALL dogs were encouraged to do it ??? uh oh ! maybe we would end up with faster CHANGES TO LAWS about dogs with muzzles logically !

Strewth, everyone who has some diploma for their dog will say ooh lala he is such a CUTIE ! great with the kids ! and for sure many are ! but many are NEVER TESTED LOOSE if complying with French law in public and those who have had yes had accidents ! and do we need to be experts to understand a dog taught jumping on arms of someone is a game to think he will always be under total safe control ??? oh lala...no one ever has RECALL slight even if occasional problems then hey ? !!! am SURE they passed that test well on the day ! but like ANY animal will NEVER be 100 percent dependable at all times or I am Peter Pan too !

Enfant tué par son chien : la mère dressait l'animal - Société - MYTF1News

child killed by BELGIAN SHEPHERD MALINOIS trained in MORDANT for defense. 
<<Certains éleveurs estiment que cette méthode rend docile les chiens, tandis que d'autres affirment que cela les rend agressifs.>> some breeders claim mordant reduces aggression others that it increases agression in dogs taught this SPORT.
Case common of BITING SPORT trained dogs ending up in rescues unable to be safe in public...case here a MALINOIS / GERMAN SHEPHERD dog..lunging at people in public on lead wearing muzzle suddenly even case...and this is not rare ..
Chien non sociabilisé, vaguement entrainé au mordant, la cata ... : Forum auFeminin

http://www.stvv.ch/merkblaetter/Ph-Bocion-Mordant.pdf

« One important result we obtained is that training for attacking behaviour seems to lead to a decrease in the biting threshold  those dogs that are trained to attack show even more attack behaviour than those dogs that have a bite history. This suggests that trainnig for this behaviour lowers the threshold to attack, also outside the training situations » 
Problématique des chiens «de défense» et des formations au mordant. Ph. Bocion, Méd.Vét., Comportementaliste. CH-1814 La Tour-de-Peilz. Septembre 2011

..............
Ecoute Ton Chien - Education Canine | L'agressivité du chien CANINE BEHAVIOUR EDUCATOR AND DOG EXPERT VIEW;
Pour finir, apprendre à un chien à mordre l'homme développe l'agressivité du chien et il n'est pas rare qu'il y ait par la suite des accidents à la maison. Je suis donc formellement contre cette pratique que j'estime abérrante et dangereuse.
In conclusion, after explaining alpha pack leaders only attack in natural dog behaviour and only SEIZE to control do not BITE hard unless intending to kill. To train dogs to bite goes against bite inhibition training that dogs need. By training dogs to attack humans as a game it is giving them a superior position they should not have towards humans. To teach a dog to bite humans increases aggression in dogs and it is not rare to have accidents at home following this.. I am therefore formally opposed to this dangerous practice.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> but hey a JACK RUSSEL like most TERRIERS have NATURAL HOLD ON ABILITY too !!! not macho enough to get them into this sport ? not part of their NATURAL INSTINCTS ???


I don't know anything about Belgian Shepherds or Schutzhund, so your post is pretty much over my head, however, talking about Jack Russels...

[youtube_browser]rTN5kTkdvME[/youtube_browser]

Claudia Romard & Mr. Murphy - YouTube


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> May i please preceed this next long post with this statement, i really do appreciate the discussions here, some ref hunting or labrador and breeds i dont know about much are things i am learning about and i dont comment on them as i think i dont understand them much....but...and oh i dont mind at all i even ENJOY being BITTEN by comments that i or others maybe idiots for our views...call me insensitive or just liking a good argument or too much of a biting people type person but i am not offended by anything at all...and INSPIRED even having been challenged to quote STATS for things i said...yes i nearly did give some off the top of my head, like 200 000 bites by dogs per year in fRance but i hesitated as i am a numbers expert yes and hate to not CHECK things lol!!!! and to my horror found the latest bites per year in France is said officially to be 500 000 !!!
> 
> now here follows some more FOOD FOR THOUGHT and FACTS and EXPERT vIEWS as well as daring to add my comments of course lol!!! ENJOY ! not an order only if you wish to...as i reply in the USA to harassement to me by that word when giving me a coffee !!! i am not very nice really sometimes !
> 
> ...


Why oh why oh do you keep just going on and on and on about protection work? We are not just talking about protection work? Correct me if I'm wrong someone, but can the BSD not do Traditional Sheepdog Trails? Or did I imagine that?

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/International Rules for Sheepdog Trials_Traditional style_EN.pdf


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I cannot be bothered to respond in detail suffice it to say that AIREDALE TERRIERS were the first police dogs in the UK, and they particpate in IPO undr FCI at the WORLDS.

In the UK ANY breed can participate in both IPO and Working Trials, so we have LABRADORS, WEIMARANERS, GWPs, BORDER COLLIES, Dobermanns, Rottweilers, BSD (Malinois), and others with protection qualifications.

What you do (_or do not do_) in France is irrelevant to us in the UK.

Have a look on Youtube for all the tattood handlers (_because having a tattoo = moron, criminal etc of course_) with JRT, Chihuahua and Border Terriers completing Protection in IPO.

FWIW I do not have any tattoos, nor is my head shaved, nor do I have any criminal convictions..........


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I cannot be bothered to respond in detail suffice it to say that AIREDALE TERRIERS were the first police dogs in the UK, and they particpate in IPO undr FCI at the WORLDS.
> 
> In the UK ANY breed can participate in both IPO and Working Trials, so we have LABRADORS, WEIMARANERS, GWPs, BORDER COLLIES, Dobermanns, Rottweilers, BSD (Malinois), and others with protection qualifications.
> 
> ...


Ohhh god missed that bit  I have lots of tattoo's does that mean I'm a criminal and I don't even know it, I mean sh*t how the hell have I been able to have a professional career for this long being a tattoo'd criminal moron.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

<<In the UK ANY breed can participate in both IPO and Working Trials, so we have LABRADORS, WEIMARANERS, GWPs, BORDER COLLIES, Dobermanns, Rottweilers, BSD (Malinois), and others with protection qualifications.

What you do (or do not do) in France is irrelevant to us in the UK.>>

response..
i believe it is an EXCELLENT thing that the UK allows also ANY DOG to compete in SHEEPHERDING competitions also this is different to the eu contient for sure also ! ! but this is not the question here, the thread question is NOT about UK rules but FCI rules ! read the thread title .?!!! lol !!! so it is not irrelevant if we are talking about FCI rules which include France and Switzerland for . The FCI country rules about qualifying as champ in dogshows for different breeds have a minefield of specific activities that qualify for exemptions for champion points to become a show champ...if a dog has some activity diploma it is exempt from getting about half the points dogs need otherwise in the BSD instance. each breed has its own list of acceptable activities that count as relevant to that breed.

are such qualifications in IPO eeded to be a champ in the UK then ? valid question to educate myself i add...because THAT is the main reason such sport is done on the continent to FCI rules ! if not the case then the numbers of dogs doing that must be very minor compared to FCI countries !

<<Ohhh god missed that bit I have lots of tattoo's does that mean I'm a criminal and I don't even know it, I mean sh*t how the hell have I been able to have a professional career for this long being a tattoo'd criminal moron.>>

LOL glad that amused you ! why i put it in ! generalised views of people making such statements about dog owners being a basis for judging their dogs is funny for sure and i had in mind a not to be mentioned by me breeder of not the rott breed saying sniffily well just LOOK at the owners ! all those earrings and tatoos ! no wonder the dogs are nuts ! lol !! perception is reality as yanks say in the sense people take views on dogs based on views of their owners !!!! hilarious !

now I dont see any comments on the views of experts translated into english ref the dangers of encouraging this biting sport...just to get a champ certificate rather than be a police dog of course...and the case of the child killed by a biting sport trained malinois no comments...so i make a comment in my mind on that based on reading the canine experts views provided...

it is not cooincidence bad luck or bad publicity to the ipo sport or malinois breed that a child was killed by such a dog...And that rare death by dogbite case is the worst case many of the public have the view of the malinois as a nasty dangerous dog due to its activites with amateurs...and accidents that happen and the number in rescues unredeemable that have been taught that activity...that is dangerous for people that are not the police since as also stated accidents with highly trained police dogs occur...

the experts explain that dogs nip and only bite strongly to kill out of normal practice so injuries of dog bites and nips are not death risks in most dogbite cases but very much so for dogs taught to bite strongly more strongly than just deterring or being annoyed at being stepped on

and yes i will not name the champ dogs of BSD breed IPO qualified that i have seen aggressive in shows i have them on video in fact aggressving a placid labrador and one kept play biting its proud to boast to me owner that it was trained in this ipo so could be a champ more easily quicker than general fci champ points need and one dog i met was not aggressive no but that makes 2 out of 3 for me !

all can as the experts in canine behaviour explain claim their dogs are nice placid dogs outside of playing at bite sports but in reality any dog can turn nasty and one taught to hang on in kill mode is far more likely to do serious injury as the child death proved. and just today a child has been killed by a pack of family dogs. no doubt the breeds will be focused on my comment on that is the same as here no dog is reliable no matter how family friendly or how highly trained to bite only in play no child is safe alone like that with dogs who kill their own owners if trhey interfere in dogfight or harm them certainly.

dogs on leads prevent more accidents of all such trained dogs.

DEATHS by biting dogs are very rare...injury is more normal...and it is NO COINCIDENCE that the rare death of that child was caused by a dog trained in biting strongly...the experts explain that dogs are dangerous to train in this as bite control is much more necessary for dogs generally...and accidents often hapen yes with such dogs...to answer a point made about that before...The fact that a MINORITY of dogs do this and are kept on leads by law prevent more accidents like this from happening. not many people but a small minority train their dogs as amateur biting dogs. more so in France than the UK i think due to the FCI RULE FOR CHAMP TITLE EXEMPTION PONTS ! in fact and hence the public fears and laws about dogs on leads in place.

ps dogpooh picking up laws do NOT exist nationally in France i smile adding ...irrelvant to the FCI SPORT RELEVANT theme here but just to say the UK have such laws and is not a dogpooh land as France with hot weather in...But French DO have laws and you will get huge yellings at if your dog is OFF LEAD due to much more dogs being known to BITE due to more obsessions with a larger than in uk minority of dogowners doing biting sport diplomas to get champ points easier in dogshows !

to end however my post on the relevant to the question of this thread again...the FCI have BREED SPECIFIC limited to certain activities diplomas to be acceptable to qualify as SHOWDOG CHAMP . the fact all breeds can do all activities in the UK is IRRELEVANT TO FCI CHAMPDOG REQUIREMENT RULES ! those replying all breeds take part in FCI sport competitons have miseed the point of this thread ! that is not the question ! the question here is SHOWDOG REQUIEMENTS ! the FCI rules to exempt champ points to be a SHOW CHAMP ! not competitions in the sport itself ! and i do add i looked and gave here the FCI STATISTICS of CHAMPIONS in both DOGSHOW world and SPORT world and ?? remember those ??? about 9000 showchamps and only 5 who were both sport and showdog champs in agility ! about 100 only total sport champs ! figures talk volumes ! so what the FCI rules about what breeds can take part in sport competitions are are not the issue or question here i repeat and seeing the vast minority small numbers of such sport champs it leads me to think well most do not go to that level for whatever reason....but back to the point...should diplomas in any sport be needed to exempt and contribute to a showdog champion title ? that is the question here ! and i say well LETS ASK IF THE sPORTS ARE RELEVANT or not to specific breeds as the FCI INTENTION IS !

and it is FCI rules this thread is about !

and my point relevant again is as for the BSD the qualification in AGILITY is one of not ALL activities allowed to qualify for exemptions to being a champ title, and agility is not a BREED SPECIFIC activity showing any specific breed skills unique to that breed i believe it is nonsense to insist on it therefore !


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2013)

Oh for crying out loud FEJA JUODAS, enough with the IPO hate already no?
Why don't you start your own thread on how useless a sport it is, this thread is being completely derailed and I was enjoying the previous conversation.

I don't know about the UK and EU, but here in the US there are idiots everywhere who train dogs stupidly, in all venues. You're so in love with herding, you should see some of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes there... There is good and bad in all of it. Intelligent folks are capable of making the distinction.

Bite sports don't teach dogs to bite, anymore than obedience training teaches a dog to sit. You'll notice that pretty much all dogs are very proficient at sitting without ever being taught. What training is - no matter whether you're training a dog in bite sports or obedience or retrieving or herding - what training is, is putting behaviors ON CUE. In other words the bite is now under stimulus control. IOW, the dog is now LESS likely to bite unless specifically cued to do so.

Nevermind, that all IPO dogs have to pass a stringent temperament and obedience test before even being allowed to continue on to the protection phase. 
Nevermind that the protection phase is only one third of the whole that is IPO. There is also a tracking phase and an obedience phase. 

But you don't understand all of that do you? You might want to look in to it and research more about training anyway, weren't you the one having trouble getting your dog to respond to a whistle and a clicker? Yeah, I think you might really benefit from some research, maybe read a book or two. It helps to be somewhat knowledgeable on a subject before you start condemning it... IME at least...


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> <<In the UK ANY breed can participate in both IPO and Working Trials, so we have LABRADORS, WEIMARANERS, GWPs, BORDER COLLIES, Dobermanns, Rottweilers, BSD (Malinois), and others with protection qualifications.
> 
> What you do (or do not do) in France is irrelevant to us in the UK.>>
> 
> ...


Neither IPO nor working trials have anything to do with Sheepherding.

I don't believe IPO has anything to do with the making of a show champion in the UK, which is I think what you are asking.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

maybe the last post was written before or at same time as my last reply...

i am replying to this thread quesiton...FCI RULES to pass tests in sport to be a showdog champ...is this good or bad is the question..And since as i repeat the fCI is BREED SPECIFIC and ACTIVITY SPECIFIC for titles of showdog champ titles yes IPO is very relevant as that and agility are the main activities and no OBEDIENCE DIPLOMAS strangely enough do NOT quqlify and that is actually a point contested and disliked by many breeders with showdogs !breed specific to the BSD i edit in !

so it is relevant to answer not according to what UK rules are but FCI ones ! to correct that bash at me for talking FCI not UK ! i can READ the title of this thread hey ! maybe some need to try harder ! in their own lingo ! 

i suggest reading my post might be better than suggesting i am taliking off the subject here as writing that only UK matters as was recently written is missing the point totally as i point out ! this thread is about FCI not UK rules !

ha ! thanks ! reply seen saying IPO is NOT needed as a test diploma to be a UK SHOWDOG CHAMP !!!

I AM DELIGHTED and pleased we are seeing the point of this thread and why i talk ipo therefore because yes it IS a requirement like AGILITY but NOT OBEDIENCE whihc is a very very sore point with BSD and other breeder dogs ! obedience not seen as a valid WORKING DOG TEST ? i agree it is not good this is the case ! but i dont start that one here breeders are fighting that on the continent yes ! 

good oh. uk is very different to FCI showdog rules then. i dont know UK showdog rules no but FCI yes !

ps. i add my bitch is INTERNATIONAL FCI SHOW CHAMPION ! and NATIONAL CHAMPION of CYRPUS additionlly. I did NOT do any SPORT diplomas i could not get into any dogclubs a condition needed to be allowed to compete on the FCI rules ...so i had to get double the champ points to qualify as champion than dogs who had diplomas in sport activites. that explains another maybe interesting to others to know point about FCI CHAMPION titles...there are 2 ways of getting the title...one route is getting 4 champ points in 3 different countries at least by different judges of course; the other easier if you belong to a dogclub sport thing is you need only 2 sometimes 1 champ point in a dogshow as the sport diploma exempts you needing more points.

my bitch cannot become champ of switzerland however because even though she has ouff 3 champ points in switzerland in dogshows the 4th one she might get is a waste of time as switzerland insists on either agility or ipo diploma to give champ title there. each FCI country has its own rules for that too .

ppss i narrowly missed my bitch qualifying for crufts ! yes ! i got the reserve champ point at a qualifying for crufts show in croatia zagreb...was chuffed as there were austrian champs there too in the dozen dogs of my breed...but unless under FCI rules the Champ point bitch is already an international champ the dog getting the reserve champ point does not get the champ point passed down. lol. narrowly missed it. there are rules about crufts qualifying shows on the continent.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Meezey said:


> So quick question.......... In Europe, most dogs have to have working/field/hunting etc test to be considered for BOB, many people I know in Rott's and GSD's now show their dogs in Europe ( GSD BOB in Crufts, being an example). Having been told a few days ago that Ch Elmo vom Hühnegrab Sieger VA1 SchH3 kkl1 Lbz, is not high drive or able to working makes me wonder, how those in the working circles feel about the trails the European dogs have to complete to be considered for BOB, is it just a "show thing meaning nothing" or is it something that helps preserve the drive and working ability of any of the breeds who were intended to do a days work, be it Hound, Terrier etc?
> 
> Is it something that should be brought in here, or is it something that those who have a "dislike" of the show world will blow off as meaning nothing, or could it be something that help "preserve" the ability and functions that a dogs was originally bred for?





FEJA JUODAS said:


> maybe the last post was written before or at same time as my last reply...
> 
> i am replying to this thread quesiton...FCI RULES to pass tests in sport to be a showdog champ...is this good or bad is the question..And since as i repeat the fCI is BREED SPECIFIC and ACTIVITY SPECIFIC for titles of showdog champ titles yes IPO is very relevant as that and agility are the main activities and no OBEDIENCE DIPLOMAS strangely enough do NOT quqlify and that is actually a point contested and disliked by many breeders with showdogs !breed specific to the BSD i edit in !
> 
> ...


If you read the OP's post, it's asking whether we should have something *similar* here in the UK


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> maybe the last post was written before or at same time as my last reply...
> 
> i am replying to this thread quesiton...FCI RULES to pass tests in sport to be a showdog champ...is this good or bad is the question..And since as i repeat the fCI is BREED SPECIFIC and ACTIVITY SPECIFIC for titles of showdog champ titles yes IPO is very relevant as that and agility are the main activities and no OBEDIENCE DIPLOMAS strangely enough do NOT quqlify and that is actually a point contested and disliked by many breeders with showdogs !breed specific to the BSD i edit in !
> 
> ...


Sorry my misunderstanding then, I thought you were asking whether IPO qualifications were required to make a show champ in the uk.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

oh no you answered the question about ipo diploma in uk::::good oh i said it is NOT needed to be a uk champ showdog ! great !

not daring to suggest i think my bitch could be one i n the uk i dont know the rules of uk at all ! but I DARED GO TO A CRUFTS QUALIFYING show with her and she got the RESERVE CHAMP POINT ! nearly mde it hey ! lol !


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm utterly lost?


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

???? i see copy of opening post...i see title of thread...

i corrected the opening post statement saying the title of BOB is not the issue with FCI rules but the CHAMPION TITLE regarding tests for sport activitires to get a title...

BOB is not a title it is not a champion point needed to become a champion these points are called CACIB CERTIFICATE APTITUDE CONFORMITE INTERNATIONALE DE BEAUTE

CACS are national champ points CERTIFICAT APTITUDE CONFORMITE AU STANDARD

so the issue of WHAT the FCI breed specific tests are is in question ...whether the UK wants to follow the FCI ? well that is the question in mind ? so all I replied to ever was what FCI rules were...and did nto understand why i was told recently that what anywhere but the UK did was irrelevant ! i was surprised and confused to see that comment when the issue is now clear following the reply that in the UK dogs do NOT need to pass sport tests to qualify to be showdog champs !

that is different to FCI countries for sure ! where BREED SPECIFIC sport diplomas are needed...for some national countries...and as i explained just above there are 2 ways of being an INTERNATIONAL CHAMPION ...one way is getting 4 champ points called CACIBS in different countries the other way is exemptions by diplomas in sports ! and those are BREED SPECIFIC

hope this helps clarify

ps if BOB best of breed is a UK title needed to be a champ then that explains the confusion in the opening post ! it is NOT anything to do with becoming a show champion in FCI rules i repeat again !

i dont know UK rules...in FCI countries there is ONE BITCH and ONE MALE DOG that can get a CACIB in a dogshow.

IF the judge considers the dogs up to it !

you can get BOB best of breed WITHOUT the CACIB CHAMP point ...being best of breed is not a title and dogs can get it that are not up to champion standard ... only a dog getting a CACIB gets point towards being a champ...

you can get BOB being just a junior dog for example ! one not able to be in the competing for the CACIB point class

hope this helps clarify

to add an interesting to me and SHEEPDOG owners point additionally i will also explain...

in SOME not ALL FCI countries to even be able to GO to a dogshow to become a champion the dog has to at age 1 year old or older depending on breed definition of being ADULT pass a CONFIRMATION test ! the dog does NOT for example in FRANCE get its DEFINITIVE PEDIGREE PAPERS until it passes that test ! a judge looks at the dog and says yes it is a belgian shepherd as described on the provisional papers gtiven when the pup is sold...and only then is the dog officially CONFIRMED as proper pedigree...this is because of frauds i understand so at least a judge gets to look at a dog claiming to be whatever...now we have DNA testing this test is irrelevant except of course dogs with only 1 testicle are disqualified and not allowed to be called proper pedigree dogs under current French rules of that kennel club...even if the DNA says they are ? lol ! lets not go into that one hey...France has NOT abolished the CONFIRMATION TEST yet or likely to even though DNA testing is available...it brings in ? MONEY to the kennel club ! as you have to pay to go to a dogshow to get the dog CONFIRMED PEDIGREE

now the point i make about SHEEPDOGS is that the BORDER COLLEY is the ONLY breed of dog in FRANCe that needs to pass a SHEEP HERDING APTITUDE TEST to even be CONFIRMED AS A PEDIGREE ! no other sheepdog needs this test. so borders are SPECIAL.

ppss not relevant i say before adding...some French dogshow rules state that DOGS WITH 1 TESTICLE are NOT EVEN ALLOWED IN THE HALLS even if registered as NON COMPETITING DOGS ! along with any identifed SICK LOOKING DOGS ! so that gave me a problem with my FALCON PEDIGREE BELGIAN DOG who is NOT shown of course in France and could be REFUSED ENTRY into even the halls even if i had paid for him to be there as a NON COMPETING DOG ! as if he were a sick dog that could INFECT or DISGRACE dogs generally.but his father and grandfather who are champs of France etc are allowed in ! the dogs that produced this abomination of a dog in the eyes of the purist breed worshiping perfect dogs world ! explain me that if anyone can ? no ok i am not asking a reply to that irrelevant point. since other irrelevant points have been made here i dare smiling add that one JUST FOR INFO ! in case anyone tries to come to big city TOULOUSE DOGSHOW with a 1 TESTICLE DOG be careful ! they can be REFUSED ENTRY even if paid for as non competiting !


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Is the "boss" or Gamekeeper of the shoot into field trials?
> 
> There's nothing more frustrating than working alongside someone who cares more about their dogs performance than a suffering wounded creature, or being in the beating line with a spaniel that's not allowed to break pattern even though they are holding the line back over a lightly covered piece of ground and birds are breaking out because of it.
> 
> ...


No, the keeper isn't into trialling. The estate runs for every single day of the season for very high paying clients amongst others. The main aim of the day for everyone is to pick the birds as quickly as possible - there's no picking and choosing .

Very few trialling people can afford to keep their competition dogs away from picking up, using expensive training days instead - that's the reserve of the privileged few. The real world is very different from what turns into folklore on internet fora.

As Rocco33 mentioned earlier, most competition people will have a work-horse or two on their team for the bulk of the work.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

FEJA JUODAS said:


> ???? i see copy of opening post...i see title of thread...
> 
> i corrected the opening post statement saying the title of BOB is not the issue with FCI rules but the CHAMPION TITLE regarding tests for sport activitires to get a title...
> 
> ...


I think it was a more open question Feja, not 'should we copy exactly what happens in Europe' but more, should we introduce *a* test to show, for relevant breeds, they still have the ability they were bred for.

To be quite honest, I'm very glad they don't get out a measuring stick in the UK and are not as rigid as in some European countries; we also allow dogs with incomplete dentition to compete in the show ring, however a dog must have two descended testicles, and I agree with the line they have drawn, as chryptorchidism is linked to a known health problem, where as being slightly too tall or short, or having a couple less or more teeth than the next dog, isn't linked to a health issue, and as long as a dog is a good example overall with a correct bite, for me that isn't an issue.


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## FEJA JUODAS (May 19, 2010)

now i am interested, i admit that my dogs purpose was not to be a show champ but useful dog first and foremost...for their own herd...and being refused even basic dog training at clubs locally and not finding herding training in France well...oh i was refused entry to general dog club due to them being full of problem dogs and not wishing to have any rules about picking up dogpooh, which no dogshow rules in France have either different to other countries ...to be part of any club you often need recommendation to it by their members and so if you are not part of an incrowd you get ignored or refused as in my case...i am not a breeder or person with friends in the dogworld for that...

pass that preliminary statement...i just went on the GB kennel club site searching for what the conditions to become a GB champ showdog are most of all...and cant find the list of any dogs needing specific work or sport tests passed to qualify as is the case for FCI show champ titles per breed...

now the point understood in the replies here is twofold..

1. in the UK i am thinking now that ALL breeds, pedigrees or not can take part in sports or work. whether herding or ipo. this i had thought the case before from reading...which is very different on the continent in FCI countries i repeat, to even be part of a private club to do herding or IPO activities, your dog not only has to be a pedigree, but also a particular breed, very limited breeds are allowed to do ipo and limited breeds also herding tests or training.

2. for SHOW champ titles, under FCI rules the int CH title, of which there are TWO i add, differentiate also on specific not ALL dog work or sport activities as to which qualify to meet a int ch title for a showdog. obediance title i repeat is not for example relevant for bsd sheepdogs. so it is yes a minefield as i wrote earlier in this thread, each country has its own rules in this respect and the GENERAL FCI champ title has its own rules PER BREED.

3. Each member country of the FCI has ITS OWN SPECIFIC conditions to be NATIONAL CHAMP showdog of that country. the example i gave was SWITZERLAND where SPORT or WORK in SPECIFIC LIMLITED agility or IPO activity is a requirement in addition to caracter social test...whihc is a harder test than the Fr one i add...and 4 CACS/CACIBS in dogshows. my bitch cannot be a swiss champ as i do not belong to a club so i cannot compete in any of those 2 activities to qualify according to their rules. TAKING PART in a competition of those activities is the specific need i did not read having a diploma in it i add...but it is catch22 as you are not ALLOWED to compete if yuou dont belong to a dogclub ! ITALY ch title needs 6 CACIBS some at special shows etc etc...

I was pleased to get a reply here clarifyin that no, an IPO or i think any sport or work test is NOT needed for belgian shepherd dogs to get show champ titles in the uk ! that clarifies for everyone the difference for my breed therefore also.

Belgian Shepherds in FCI champ title rules need...hip dysplasia free certification, caracter social test, aptitude instinct test for herding sheep or a gundog type test to test non reaction to gunshots...and 4 CACIBS at dogshows in different countries by at least 3 different countries and judges in a period of at least 1 year and 1 day minimus between the 1st CACIB and last one. once you have all those things, you can be an int champ showdog. There are 2 INT CH titles in the FCI general award of that title, because if dogs pass diplomas in some breed specific activities they are exempt having to have 4 CACIBS reduced in fact to HALF that number to be INT CH. EXPOSITION and BEAUTE are the 2 slightly different terms in the title regarding this.

so out of curiosity to complete my breed specific to BSD interest foremost of course i add ...not that i am disinterested in the other breeds ...it took me personally HOURS AND HOURS to find the FCI rules for my needs as many exhibitors experienced even got things wrong saying things like to be int ch you need to be national champ first...wrong...so i read and read on FCI etc website and had to ask them to GET IT RIGHT !

so i just sent this to the KC on their website...and copy it here hoping for those interested in helps explain things about FCI and showdog titles that many do not know or understand even experienced dogshow people as i found unfortunatly ! i add...FCI rules change and the changes of 2004 regarding int ch title were not updated in the for example Switzerland dogshow rules papers issued only last year...i wrote to switz about that to let them know i add...

My search just now on KC GB site was for a LIST of which breeds neeed sport or work certificates to having showdog champ titles !!! my search did not come up with a list but links to TRIALS FOR HUINTING dogs i add...maybe only hunting breeds need such titles to qualify for showdog champ titles ? i am curious..because as i said the MAIN REASON for doing AGILITY or IPO certificates in countries where those are required to get SHOWDOG TITLES is the point of this thread....that is why i was discussing not only IPO but also AGILITY as being irrelvant in my view...i said that as agility is open to ALL dogs pedigree or not under FCI rules and countries, it is hardly a BREED SPECIFIC qualification of skills so why make it a requirement to get a showdog title ?! yes that is what my point was...and my point about IPO is not any interest at all in the sport for any other reason that like agility it is one of LIMITED activites listed as also a qualifyer for showdog champs...and since i see in the UK unlike abroad ANY dog can do this activity as you lot here say well the arguement about agility and IPO are one and the same ! if not breed specific then the FCI and other countries requirement of those specifics is maybe irrelevant !

of course other poiints discussed in this thread are interesting, particularly to me the hunting dog work trials i know nothing about ...so i like reading them but going back to the FCI versus GB showchamp title theme then an understanding of the differences is relevant for sure...oh and as an aside...to reply to a bash at me for seeing a post of mine asking if there are any good quality whistles around for orders to my dogs i dont need telling that i would be better getting my dogs more obedient based on that question...that is not why i asked the question....but i made the point in my question there elsewhere that AT A BIG DISTANCE when i was out HERDING with my dogs a long way away YELLING orders was difficult ! i have had NO training in sheep herding ! yet i was faced not with animals in any enclosure easy to just circule around by dogs but OUT LOOSE IN WIDE OPEN FIELDS ! and untrained dogs ! and me with only my VOICE to give orders ! and seeing sheepdogs on videos on youtube people seem to use WHISTLES to send orders to dogs far away ! that is why i was asking on that point ! i am alone in the dark with dogs that i tried to control with cows with calves to protect and goats with massive horns that could have gored my dogs severely ! when the breeder of my dog in France saw photos of that last year she was ALARMED and sent me messge saying GET THOSe HUGE HORNS CUT FAST ! fearing my dogs would be injured...i cease the reply to this point as irerelvant to this theme but just reply to as i say a bash at me about needing to be better at obedience with my dogs ! and anyway to my and others dismay OBEDIENCE is NOT a qualification that counts for BSD SHEEPDOGS for relevant breed showchampt title of the second variety i repeat ! lol ! which yes i find incorrect so made that additional statement being debated again in the dogworld of Fr.

............

COPY OF KC GB email just sent by me...if anyone has the answer to the question thanks for letting me know...meaning WHICH BREEDS of sheepdogs need WHAT sport or work diplomas to get a SHOWDOG CHAMP title in particular....

.......
*QUESTIONS TO THE KC GB.*

<<The title of FCI International Champion will continue to be recognised and recorded as at present.

only champ title of home country will be recognsed and recorded.>>

I cut these two statements out of your page on overseas titles recognition..and add to inform you ..

there are 2 FCI Internation Champion types of titles not just one. My dog has one of these titles, CHAMP INT D EXPOSITION ...from getting 4 CACIB in different countries from different judges in the set time period. CH INT DE BEAUTE is the other title, that one for dogs getting sport diplomas instead of all the CACIBS needed for the CH EXPOSITION title. You state INTERNATIONAL CHAMPION title without this précision therefore maybe you dont know about the two titles or mean both titles are acceptable as both are INT CHAMP titles. but i am pedantic and careful to be correct to i ask the question.

so i take it that BOTH types of INT CH titles for showdogs are KN GB recognised ?

Additionally, my dog is CHAMP of CYPRUS having met the CYPRUS need to be judged to standard by several judges.

Cyprus is not the home country of my dog but i ask if this title would be recognised in GB ?

My reasons for asking are twofold..

1. i intend to bring my french dog to GB which is my official home to live.
so transfering her onto GB kc register is my intention.

2. I am trying to understand eligibility to attend dogshows in GB should i like to do so, so interested in knowing what status her INTERNATIONAL and NATIONAL CHAMP papers have. i am NOT an obsessive intending to be CH of loads of countries for my dog person lol ! having 11 CACS and 5 CACIBS is very adequate enough for me from judges from GB included all over europe in dogshows done ! she got the reserve CACIB and RCACS at a crufts qualifying show recently i add, before becoming int ch. just luck of the draw and day often hey as to whether one dog of equal obviously merti gets the point or not.

thanks if you could reply me !

...............

ps i do not additionally mention i intend to bring BOTH my dogs to GB...including FALCON a PEDIGREE BELGIAN SHEPHERD who s i mentioned is NOT SHOW DOG of coures not he has been CASTRATED to save him from high risk of TUMOURS or CANCERS high risk for dogs with undescended testicle....he is GREAT SHEEPDOG i add with evidence of that on videos even with my crap skills in dog handling ! with NO of course qualifications in that i could not get even into dogclub for any training of my dogs as i stated here for reasons stated ! FEJA passed her SOCIAL SKILLS caractere test needed to qualify for any show champ title yes WITHOUT ANY SCHOOLING other than my pathetic attemps of course ! but SHE DID PASS !

now FALCON is a PEDIGREE and NOT INTENDED for reproduction of course not he is additonlly HIGH RISK EPILEPSY due to finding his father and 11 other clos relatives have had epilepsy ! but i hope that he will not be banned from entereing the UK due to testicle issues as he is from even entering the HALL of a dogshow along with refused sick looking dogs even when recorded as an UNSHOWN dog in the paid for catalogue which is what dogs not competing have to do to be in the halls but as i said if even ENTERING a hall with a 1 testicle dog is considered in the same league as sick dogs an offense to other dogs then i need to know ! i am not discussing showing 1 testicle dogs here ! just entering a hall where the only refused dogs whether 1 testicle or not should be SICK DOGS ! the point being the BAN on him entereing some halls is not based on being sick just an offense to the dogworld as an UNSHOWN dog just BEING THERE ! there is a category for DOGS NOT BEING SHOWN in fr dogshows you pay a fee but dont have the dog judged...useful to not have to leave your dog in hot car outside although most use this category just to publicise the names of their dogs in the catalogue lol !!! as if anyone is going to look at his testicles not being a showdog presented for that !!!!! hilarious i find that !

ppss and not i did NOT cut the HUGE GOAT HORNS off the herd animals my dogs and i were around. no accidents happened. i was able to calm and control all the animals unused to dogs around them or having any training in how to give orders to my dogs not to bite them or chase them when not needed etc. not easy. that is however another subject not the point of this thread. and no i am NOT interested in the fact FEJA has her SHEEPHERDING APTITUDE basic diploma...needed to be int ch under FCI and many countries in the EU for showdog...it is far easier a test tn Fr han i belive in the uk...i recall reading HANDLER CONTROL of the dog is needed in the uk to pass such a test in fact i read a REAL COMPETITION OF HERDING test not just a let dogs loose to see if they run around sheep test ! ...in Fr...the dogs are put with sheep in a small enclosure and just have to show interest and run around them...Those that take no interest are disqualified i add.... there is NO test of the dog obeying any orders from owner or handler i add. i saw dogs that failed simply because they didnt chase sheep ! yet would be with training GREAT OBEDIENCE DOGS use for herding ! they were looking to their owners for guidance in fact !!! i found that super ! one young labrit dog when a very stressed sheep lay down..and we thought it was injured but the handler said no sheep do that if stressed or afraid...well the dog did NOT ATTACK the sheep lying down but to the amazement of onlookers tried to nudge it up ! that dog was disqualified due to losing interest maybe due to tiredness it was a very young dog...others that being TOO YOUNG to do the test in my view lose interest get tired and stop running around them...those were disqualified. and whether the poor stressed sheep needed all that when none of those dogs are going to do real herding is yet another point. FEJA got it. i did not as many do in Fr take her to SPECIAL TRAINING TO PASS HERDING INSTINCT TEST lesssons ! not having CONNECTIONS for that ! and it defeating the object of the test in fact as it is supposed to be a test of dogs FIRST ENCOUNTER with a herd to see if they have NATURAL NOT TAUGHT ABILITITES ! lol !!! highly amusing i find that. BUT FEJA PASSED ! intially seeing sheep in enclosure for a minute or so DID NOT CHASE THEM and i thought uh oh we are about to have a spectacular fail here but just carried on filming ! lol ! got shouted at by the breeder for that but hey i wasnt going to give her orders she would not understand it was supposed to test her NATURAL INSTINCT ! then the sheep moved out of the enclosure ! and FEJA launched into action !

ppss sigh i also add that FEJA could have FAILEd her sheepherding atptitude test yes, why ? because I TEACH MY DOGS TO NOT CHASE ANIMALS !!! i ORDER them to desist even chasing CATS and CERTAINLY LOOSE SHEEP OUT IN THE HILLS nothing to do with us ! that to me is SENSIBLE and SOD any pride is seeing my dogs charge off after a herd of sheep not belonging to them and saying as some say OOH WHAT GREAT HERDING INSTINCTS MY DOGS HAVE ! lol ! so my poor FEJA not being STUPID when she sees sheep in a closed enclosure does NOT HARRASS THEM NO ! and CERTAINLY leaves them alone if loose out in the open ! unless obvious that I WANT HER TO MOVE them : we travel a lot, i let my dogs loose everywhere possible so I NEED THAT CONTROL over them or many sheep etc would be dead or scattered all over switwerland france etc by now !!! lol !!!

MY DARLING FALCON ! to lift spirits ! the PEDIGREE BSD GROENENDAEL that is an ABOMINATION of the STANDARD OF HIS BREED ! NO WORKING OR EVEN CARACTER DIPLOMA ! NO EXPERT TRAINING ! AN EPILEPSY HIGH RISK 1 TESTICLE PRODUCE OF FRENCH AND MULTI CHAMPION SHOWDOGS AND ANCESTERS OF HIGH IPO QUALIFICATIONS maybe like many BSD secretly OUTCROSSED to icnrease JAW STRENTH for this !!!!

WITH HUGE HORNED GOATS ! CALM ! and a CREDIT TO HIS BREED ! or ANY dog ! a USEFUL dog even i DARE say !


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