# Lilac parents both carrying colourpoint



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

Am I right in believing kittens could be colourpoint ? 
TIA


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Yes that is correct


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

spotty cats said:


> Yes that is correct


Thankyou x


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes, on average 1 in 4 will be colour-point, 2 in 4 will be carriers and the final 1 in 4 will not. This is just on average, and carriers cannot be differentiated visually. If you are wanting to keep a carrier you will have to DNA test once they are a few weeks old.

And averages are just that! I've had a litter of 5 boys & 1 girl, and another of 5 boys. Someone, somewhere must have had the counterbalancing girl litters...


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> Yes, on average 1 in 4 will be colour-point, 2 in 4 will be carriers and the final 1 in 4 will not. This is just on average, and carriers cannot be differentiated visually. If you are wanting to keep a carrier you will have to DNA test once they are a few weeks old.
> 
> And averages are just that! I've had a litter of 5 boys & 1 girl, and another of 5 boys. Someone, somewhere must have had the counterbalancing girl litters...


Oh goodness me!!

my other lilac girl has had 2
Litters : one litter of 2 girls and 1 boy and the second litter was 3 girls and 2 boys how bizarre... I am hoping for a colour point kitten I just love them although not many people do unfortunately


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Holly BtoB said:


> Oh goodness me!!
> 
> my other lilac girl has had 2
> Litters : one litter of 2 girls and 1 boy and the second litter was 3 girls and 2 boys how bizarre... I am hoping for a colour point kitten I just love them although not many people do unfortunately


Ah you have some of the girl litters! And if you want a kitten of a particular sex, that multiples up - 1/4 * 1/2 = 1/8.


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> Ah you have some of the girl litters! And if you want a kitten of a particular sex, that multiples up - 1/4 * 1/2 = 1/8.


Sorry I'm corrected the second litter was 2 girls and 3 boys And the first litter was 2 girls and 1 boy !! X


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

Holly BtoB said:


> Sorry I'm corrected the second litter was 2 girls and 3 boys And the first litter was 2 girls and 1 boy !! X


In layman's terms.... my girl has more girls than boys?


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

It does even out over a number of litters to the 'pure' mathematical average. But most of us wouldn't be breeding enough litters from one girl to see it.

My black girl, carrying chocolate and dilute mated to a lilac stud had five blue kittens this year.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> It does even out over a number of litters to the 'pure' mathematical average. But most of us wouldn't be breeding enough litters from one girl to see it.
> 
> My black girl, carrying chocolate and dilute mated to a lilac stud had five blue kittens this year.


 But all chocolate carriers.


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> It does even out over a number of litters to the 'pure' mathematical average. But most of us wouldn't be breeding enough litters from one girl to see it.
> 
> My black girl, carrying chocolate and dilute mated to a lilac stud had five blue kittens this year.


yes you'd have to have a lot of litters!! Oh wow how fabulous with your girl . I'm intrigued to see if I get some colour points. Both mum and dad are lilac but their one of their parents each were colourpoint.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

There's another law - Sod's. Which means all will carry point or chocolate or whatever unless you need them not to and vice versa.

I have so rarely had exactly what I wanted/needed without some form of compromise. It's frustrating  

By the way, I'm speaking in general, not in relation to the op's post


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> There's another law - Sod's. Which means all will carry point or chocolate or whatever unless you need them not to and vice versa.
> 
> I have so rarely had exactly what I wanted/needed without some form of compromise. It's frustrating
> 
> By the way, I'm speaking in general, not in relation to the op's post


That's very true! Ok , I'm quite new to colours etc and I'm only just starting out (we all have to somewhere , right!?) there could be a possibility that my girl could have chocolate points?


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

Also whilst I’m here, my girl is a British shorthair. I’ve seen a few guys on here discuss colourpoints and that they’re not very “desirable” im shocked I love them. Although I love every cat and every colour / pattern going!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Holly BtoB said:


> That's very true! Ok , I'm quite new to colours etc and I'm only just starting out (we all have to somewhere , right!?) there could be a possibility that my girl could have chocolate points?


No. Lilac is dilute chocolate, dilute is recessive, so two dilutes can't have a dominant - shorthand a cat that's not dilute. OTOH two chocolates can have a lilac-point as long as both carry dilute.

You need to understand Mendelian Inheritance as the basis for understanding the genetics of cat coat colours & patterns:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance

The above link mentions Punnett Squares which are a very useful way of looking at that is going on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

Also as I mentioned above, if there is a 1 in 4 chance of a kitten inheriting one trait, and a 1 in 4 of another, then multiple 1/4 x 1/4 and you get 1/16 - 1 in 16. And if you are interested in a particular sex (which is 1 in 2), 1/16 x 1/2 = 1/32.

This is a good link though possibly OTT for you at present until you've got your head around Mendel & Punnett squares.
http://messybeast.com/cat-genetics-basics.htm


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> No. Lilac is dilute chocolate, dilute is recessive, so two dilutes can't have a dominant - shorthand a cat that's not dilute. OTOH two chocolates can have a lilac-point as long as both carry dilute.
> 
> You need to understand Mendelian Inheritance as the basis for understanding the genetics of cat coat colours & patterns:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance
> ...


Wow this is so interesting. You need a medal to remember it all! I'll get there slowly but surely!!! Wow minds blown! Thankyou


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Take it step by step. The Mendelian stuff, then Punnett squares, then the genes involved in your breeding. There are probably plenty of other genes you don't need to worry about.


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> Take it step by step. The Mendelian stuff, then Punnett squares, then the genes involved in your breeding. There are probably plenty of other genes you don't need to worry about.


Fab! Thankyou so much! Do you have any answers as to why the colourpoint seem to be not as "desirable"??


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Holly BtoB said:


> Fab! Thankyou so much! Do you have any answers as to why the colourpoint seem to be not as "desirable"??


None whatsoever


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Colourpointed in themselves are not seen as undesirable at all; their numbers aren't great, show wise, but they aren't considered a minority colour (or rather pattern)

What is seen as undesirable by many is having colourpointed cats in the pedigree of selfs as their presence is thought by many to adversely affect the eye colour of orange eyed cats.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> And averages are just that! I've had a litter of 5 boys & 1 girl, and another of 5 boys. Someone, somewhere must have had the counterbalancing girl litters...


Sexes are never equal though, many humans have all boys or all girls.

I've had lots more boys than girl kittens. 6 boys in one litter was the highest.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

It's also the male that determines the sex of the kittens, not the female. As always, it's the man's fault


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

Sorry to jump in... but I'm finding this interesting and wanted to ask a question about the colours of mine!

@OrientalSlave any idea on how my two and their siblings ended up the colours they are???

Dad is red/white bicolour
Mum is blue torti
Kittens are: black male (Kenco), chocolate/white bicolour male (Tetley), and two cream females

What were mum and dad carrying to make that mixed litter??


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> Sorry to jump in... but I'm finding this interesting and wanted to ask a question about the colours of mine!
> 
> @OrientalSlave any idea on how my two and their siblings ended up the colours they are???
> 
> ...


Dad is dominant (red in this case but also black)so he has given that gene to make the black but he also carries dilute (cream or blue).

Mum is tortie so she's given the red (or in this case cream because she's dilute) to make the creams. Both parents need to be or carry dilute to produce dilute, which is how we know what dad is carrying.

Both parents also need to carry the chocolate gene, which is recessive to black but a separate gene to dilute.


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> Dad is dominant (red in this case but also black)so he has given that gene to make the black but he also carries dilute (cream or blue).
> 
> Mum is tortie so she's given the red (or in this case cream because she's dilute) to make the creams. Both parents need to be or carry dilute to produce dilute, which is how we know what dad is carrying.
> 
> Both parents also need to carry the chocolate gene, which is recessive to black but a separate gene to dilute.


Thanks for that!

I feel like black and chocolate/white were not necessarily likely colours, or at least what the breeder was aiming for! I know she kept a cream girl and she let me have the two boys for quite cheap... although I know black cats do tend to get sold cheaper in general. But she had a black imperial grand champion she was very proud of (he was stunning!)


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

gskinner123 said:


> Colourpointed in themselves are not seen as undesirable at all; their numbers aren't great, show wise, but they aren't considered a minority colour (or rather pattern)
> 
> What is seen as undesirable by many is having colourpointed cats in the pedigree of selfs as their presence is thought by many to adversely affect the eye colour of orange eyed cats.


Thankyou for this. I personally love them! As i said before I love all cats regardless Thankyou so much for telling me this though.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Colourpointed in themselves are not seen as undesirable at all; their numbers aren't great, show wise, but they aren't considered a minority colour (or rather pattern)
> 
> What is seen as undesirable by many is having colourpointed cats in the pedigree of selfs as their presence is thought by many to adversely affect the eye colour of orange eyed cats.


In Orientals its rare to find one without siamese in the pedigree & eye colour is fine, but Siamese have much better eye colour then cp bsh


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> Thanks for that!
> 
> I feel like black and chocolate/white were not necessarily likely colours, or at least what the breeder was aiming for! I know she kept a cream girl and she let me have the two boys for quite cheap... although I know black cats do tend to get sold cheaper in general. But she had a black imperial grand champion she was very proud of (he was stunning!)


I don't think black cats are sold cheaper, certainly not Maine Coons. They are slightly harder to sell but shouldn't be a different price than any other colour.

Black was definitely a likely colour, as one cat, in this case the dad, was a dominant so black was more likely than cream or blue. I'd imagine chocolate was a bit of a surprise though, as it can be difficult to get


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> I don't think black cats are sold cheaper, certainly not Maine Coons. They are slightly harder to sell but shouldn't be a different price than any other colour.
> 
> Black was definitely a likely colour, as one cat, in this case the dad, was a dominant so black was more likely than cream or blue. I'd imagine chocolate was a bit of a surprise though, as it can be difficult to get


In my black cat appreciation thread sadly the experience of most people were black cats taking longer to home and having lower prices, although everyone was referring to moggies and rescue, so hopefully in the pedigree world they come with less stigma and difficulty to sell?

Looking at Tetley and Kenco's pedigree there is a fair amount of chocolate in their ancestry so maybe she was hoping for a chocolate? Unfortunately Tetley has very unsymmetrical markings so not the ideal! There is actually no black in their pedigree since great great great grandparents!


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> In Orientals its rare to find one without siamese in the pedigree & eye colour is fine, but Siamese have much better eye colour then cp bsh


Maybe the green of Ori's makes a difference compared to orange eye Brits?

I've only seen a handful of CP Brits over the years, they had worked on coat texture over eye colour - which was always very pale and grey.


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

Rufus15 said:


> Dad is dominant (red in this case but also black)so he has given that gene to make the black but he also carries dilute (cream or blue).
> 
> Mum is tortie so she's given the red (or in this case cream because she's dilute) to make the creams. Both parents need to be or carry dilute to produce dilute, which is how we know what dad is carrying.
> 
> Both parents also need to carry the chocolate gene, which is recessive to black but a separate gene to dilute.


I just found a photo of their sister and she isn't cream.... she is "fawn tortie spotter"!

What is the difference between fawn and cream? In her recent photo she looks darker than when I met her as a kitten which is when I assumed she was cream!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Maybe the green of Ori's makes a difference compared to orange eye Brits?
> 
> I've only seen a handful of CP Brits over the years, they had worked on coat texture over eye colour - which was always very pale and grey.


Maybe, maybe not. I heard the cats used to bring colourpoint to BSH had poor eye colour and it's persisted, but that might be a myth.


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

@Holly BtoB I haven't seen a BSH colourpoint before so I googled to find photos and came across this entry on a website, I do not know how accurate it is though! If it is accurate, maybe the extra genetic test makes it more unpopular to breed from a breeder perspective?

http://www.bombadillokittens.com/articles/colourpoint-british-shorthair


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> @Holly BtoB I haven't seen a BSH colourpoint before so I googled to find photos and came across this entry on a website, I do not know how accurate it is though! If it is accurate, maybe the extra genetic test makes it more unpopular to breed from a breeder perspective?
> 
> http://www.bombadillokittens.com/articles/colourpoint-british-shorthair


It's not on the list of tests suggested by Langford, and there is no need to test a kitten whose parents both tested negative, or are negative by inheritance. Note they say all their cats are negative...

Also if it's the problem they imply it is, all BSH with colourpoint anywhere in their pedigrees - even way, way back - should be tested to establish their status. This page feels to me like a breeder trying to say they are extra-wonderful & careful.


----------



## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> @Holly BtoB I haven't seen a BSH colourpoint before so I googled to find photos and came across this entry on a website, I do not know how accurate it is though! If it is accurate, maybe the extra genetic test makes it more unpopular to breed from a breeder perspective?
> 
> http://www.bombadillokittens.com/articles/colourpoint-british-shorthair


Meet Arthur


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

lea247 said:


> Meet Arthur
> 
> View attachment 423669


Ooooo so cute :Cat I've always thought my Tetley was a rare colour pattern (chocolate white bicolour) as I don't see many examples on breeders' pages, Instagram or by googling, but I think CP must be rarer!


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> maybe the extra genetic test makes it more unpopular to breed from a breeder perspective


PRA is an inexpensive test  a number of breeds test for it.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> In my black cat appreciation thread sadly the experience of most people were black cats taking longer to home and having lower prices, although everyone was referring to moggies and rescue, so hopefully in the pedigree world they come with less stigma and difficulty to sell?
> 
> Looking at Tetley and Kenco's pedigree there is a fair amount of chocolate in their ancestry so maybe she was hoping for a chocolate? Unfortunately Tetley has very unsymmetrical markings so not the ideal! There is actually no black in their pedigree since great great great grandparents!


I think black pedigrees are probably more popular than black moggies. I know that blacks are usually last to be reserved, as a general rule of thumb, but still sell and for the same price as their siblings. Black are needed to keep blue coats sound, too much blue to blue results in the colour not reaching to the roots, so a breeder may have a blue breeding programme, but will have at least one black to help the coat on, if that makes sense.



Tetley&Kenco said:


> I just found a photo of their sister and she isn't cream.... she is "fawn tortie spotter"!
> 
> What is the difference between fawn and cream? In her recent photo she looks darker than when I met her as a kitten which is when I assumed she was cream!


Fawn is black-based, cream is red-based so two different genes entirely. Cream requires the red gene and two dilute genes only, fawn requires two copies of the fawn gene, which is recessive of cinnamon, which is turn is recessive to black. I'm not entirely clear on inheritance, I did do it on PawPeds but as these colours aren't in my breed I'm not entirely familiar with them. @spotty cats is a more reliable source to ask  PS, I think you mean spotted, not spotter


----------



## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> but I think CP must be rarer!


Depends on the genetics involved I guess. Arthur was one of 5 and he had a cream colour point sibling.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> fawn requires two copies of the fawn gene, which is recessive of cinnamon


Fawn is dilute of cinnamon. Both need to be, or carry, cinnamon & dilute for fawn.

The shades vary between breeds, in Oci's fawn is pink toned.
I call my lavenders pink cats but fawn is pinker.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Fawn is black-based, cream is red-based so two different genes entirely. Cream requires the red gene and two dilute genes only, fawn requires two copies of the fawn gene, which is recessive of cinnamon, which is turn is recessive to black. I'm not entirely clear on inheritance, I did do it on PawPeds but as these colours aren't in my breed I'm not entirely familiar with them. @spotty cats is a more reliable source to ask  PS, I think you mean spotted, not spotter


There is no such thing as 'the fawn gene' any more than there is 'the blue gene'.

Fawn is dilute cinnamon, not a recessive of cinnamon. Cinnamon is recessive to chocolate which is recessive to black.

I think it's a stunning colour on self cats. I don't like it on tabbys as there isn't much contrast, and it gets very pale & wishy washy on colourpoints.

This is Basil, a fawn Oriental.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

And if @Holly BtoB wondered, I've seen cinnamon & fawn BSH. I preferred the fawn, very much because the orange eyes stand out against it. They rather blend into a cinnamon coat, which is well named as it's just about the same colour as a stick of cinnamon.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> In Orientals its rare to find one without siamese in the pedigree & eye colour is fine, but Siamese have much better eye colour then cp bsh


I don't think I have ever seen a BSH CP that I've looked at and thought "now that's really decent blue eye colour".

I am not convinced that the presence of CP in self lines makes much, if any, difference to orange eyes.

Most 'serious', dedicated self breeders are not keen at all on having CP in their breed lines and perhaps the truest thing that could be said is that many traditionally bred selfs would be selected in part on eye colour. Cats with a bit of a 'jumbled' pedigree - and they'll often include all three eye colours - most usually aren't being selected for anything in particular at all so you'd perhaps not expect to see consistently good eye colour of any of the three colours


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I don't think I have ever seen a BSH CP that I've looked at and thought "now that's really decent blue eye colour".
> 
> I am not convinced that the presence of CP in self lines makes much, if any, difference to orange eyes.
> 
> Most 'serious', dedicated self breeders are not keen at all on having CP in their breed lines and perhaps the truest thing that could be said is that many traditionally bred selfs would be selected in part on eye colour. Cats with a bit of a 'jumbled' pedigree - and they'll often include all three eye colours - most usually aren't being selected for anything in particular at all so you'd perhaps not expect to see consistently good eye colour of any of the three colours


I agree about CP in self lines, and I wonder how much of the breeding with CP has gone towards coat texture (imagine it was rather long & soft at first) forgetting eye colour? Certainly it seems bizarre to me that a few BSH colours should have green eyes and the rest of the non-CP cats should have orange!


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> Sorry to jump in... but I'm finding this interesting and wanted to ask a question about the colours of mine!
> @OrientalSlave any idea on how my two and their siblings ended up the colours they are???
> Dad is red/white bicolour
> Mum is blue torti
> ...





Tetley&Kenco said:


> I just found a photo of their sister and she isn't cream.... she is "fawn tortie spotter"!
> What is the difference between fawn and cream? In her recent photo she looks darker than when I met her as a kitten which is when I assumed she was cream!


To get a fawn from this mating, the sire has to be chocolate carrying cinnamon and the dam black carrying cinnamon. Since there is cream in the litter, the sire carries dilute as has already been stated and as the mother is blue she has two dilute genes so the dilute is not a problem.

Unless the red bicolour sire is a wrongly registered tabby the sister cannot be a spottie so I suspect it is more likely she is a funny colour cream because tabby markings nearly always show on red and cream cats even when they are not tabbies.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> There is no such thing as 'the fawn gene' any more than there is 'the blue gene'.
> Fawn is dilute cinnamon, not a recessive of cinnamon. Cinnamon is recessive to chocolate which is recessive to black.
> I think it's a stunning colour on self cats. I don't like it on tabbys as there isn't much contrast, and it gets very pale & wishy washy on colourpoints.
> This is Basil, a fawn Oriental.
> View attachment 423674


Although not really relevant to this thread, I thought perhaps people should be able to decide about wishy washy fawn points for themselves!


















Perhaps I just like wishy washy!


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

QOTN said:


> To get a fawn from this mating, the sire has to be chocolate carrying cinnamon and the dam black carrying cinnamon. Since there is cream in the litter, the sire carries dilute as has already been stated and as the mother is blue she has two dilute genes so the dilute is not a problem.
> 
> Unless the red bicolour sire is a wrongly registered tabby the sister cannot be a spottie so I suspect it is more likely she is a funny colour cream because tabby markings nearly always show on red and cream cats even when they are not tabbies.


The dad appears to have spots in his red, but is registered as red/white bicolour. I think both the sisters must be fawn spotted and not cream because they looked identical!

Oh and Tetley has spotted ghost markings in his chocolate, but only visible in some lights, they're very faint!


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> The dad appears to have spots in his red, but is registered as red/white bicolour. I think both the sisters must be fawn spotted and not cream because they looked identical!
> Oh and Tetley has spotted ghost markings in his chocolate, but only visible in some lights, they're very faint!


If the sire is registered with GCCF he will have had to have a DNA test to prove he was non-agouti if he had a tabby parent. I don't know if that is the case with all registering bodies but the agouti gene is dominant so one parent must be tabby to get a tabby offspring.

All cats have tabby patters and they are more likely to show in chocolate and cinnamon self colour cats although some self blacks also show ghosting.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Perhaps I just like wishy washy!


A pretty and delicate colour. Nice to see you posting again qotn


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

QOTN said:


> If the sire is registered with GCCF he will have had to have a DNA test to prove he was non-agouti if he had a tabby parent. I don't know if that is the case with all registering bodies but the agouti gene is dominant so one parent must be tabby to get a tabby offspring.
> 
> All cats have tabby patters and they are more likely to show in chocolate and cinnamon self colour cats although some self blacks also show ghosting.


He is GCCF registered and I have my boys' pedigrees back 5 generations and no tabby on it, although great great great grandparents are sketchy on the details


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I agree about CP in self lines, and I wonder how much of the breeding with CP has gone towards coat texture (imagine it was rather long & soft at first) forgetting eye colour? Certainly it seems bizarre to me that a few BSH colours should have green eyes and the rest of the non-CP cats should have orange!


So I may be so totally wrong in this so just tell me if I am :-D

Is it the case that in Siamese colour points, the blue eyes actually have no colour because they are albinos? And that the blue is created by the way colour hits the iris and the wavelength of blue being shorter than other colours?

And if so... And if BSH blue eyes aren't as blue, does that mean BSH aren't albinos and their eyes are actually blue in colour?

Intrigued!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

It's exactly the same gene in bsh & siamese, neither are albinos. I have no idea why the eye colour is so poor in cp bsh.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I agree about CP in self lines, and I wonder how much of the breeding with CP has gone towards coat texture (imagine it was rather long & soft at first) forgetting eye colour? Certainly it seems bizarre to me that a few BSH colours should have green eyes and the rest of the non-CP cats should have orange!


As a breed, being so diverse for colour/pattern, each with its own (partially) different SOP, breeders will tend to focus on the main "thing" for that breed...so yes, other elements can be overlooked


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> It's exactly the same gene in bsh & siamese, neither are albinos. I have no idea why the eye colour is so poor in cp bsh.


I can think of no genetic reason why BSH CP eye colour should not (be able to) rival the best blue of any other blue eyed breeds - it just never does and is sometimes so pale as to be a washed out, icy blue/grey.

The closest non BSH ancestor that introduced the point gene was of course Persian...and their pointed blue eye colour is never as intense as other blue eyed breeds either.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> I can think of no genetic reason why BSH CP eye colour should not (be able to) rival the best blue of any other blue eyed breeds - it just never does and is sometimes so pale as to be a washed out, icy blue/grey.
> 
> The closest non BSH ancestor that introduced the point gene was of course Persian...and their pointed blue eye colour is never as intense as other blue eyed breeds either.


Neither can I. However it might have got reintroduced with the cinnamon program back in the 1990s, which used osh. A great many of them carry cp.


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

With regards to the eye colour in CP cats the simple fact is it it's ignored in most breeds which don't come only in colourpoint ... the exception to this being Ragdolls who also often have poor eye colour, but that is because today's breeders don't read their SOP!!

Poor eye colour is down to breeding practices and sadly, even the Birman is starting to slide into the 'average at best' group when it comes to eye colour. Having said that, good quality deep blue colour is a nightmare to retain if the breed as a whole isn't consistent. Cats by nature want to have yellowy-green eyes and they'll revert at the drop of a hat. This is why breeders dislike having CPs or green- eyed cats in self pedigrees, or selfs in CP pedigrees etc. However my personal opinion is that it's due to laziness on the part of the breeders as eye colour can always be bred back to within just a couple of generations (sometimes you get lucky and it's never lost even in the first cross).


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I agree, Tigermoon. The only way to improve eye colour is to select for it constantly but I'm not sure the starting point (excuse the pun) in BSH CP's is good enough, such that you could be at it for years...and in the meantime have lost many or most even of the other qualities you need to meet the SOP 

I would say that of the CP breeders I know well, good eye colour is of course always welcome but near the bottom of list for selection criteria... there is so much else to try and get right and poor eye colour has almost become the acceptable norm. We do see this to an extent in orange and green eyed BSH too


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> I agree, Tigermoon. The only way to improve eye colour is to select for it constantly but I'm not sure the starting point (excuse the pun) in BSH CP's is good enough, such that you could be at it for years...and in the meantime have lost many or most even of the other qualities you need to meet the SOP


You can have it all within a very, very short time-span. In my personal experience, just 3 years, and that was starting from a completely different eye colour altogether! IMHO only a very poor breeder would lose the required elements of the SOP while trying to improve on another in an already established breed.

However breeders don't want to wait, they want it now. They are quite happy to let someone else do the legwork then jump on the bandwagon when its finished. This is also my personal experience!


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Psygon said:


> So I may be so totally wrong in this so just tell me if I am :-D
> Is it the case that in Siamese colour points, the blue eyes actually have no colour because they are albinos? And that the blue is created by the way colour hits the iris and the wavelength of blue being shorter than other colours?
> And if so... And if BSH blue eyes aren't as blue, does that mean BSH aren't albinos and their eyes are actually blue in colour?
> Intrigued!


You are correct that the Siamese coat pattern is one of the mutations in the albino alleles series. Full colour is the 'normal' then in order of dominance, Burmese colour restriction, Siamese colour restriction, then blue eyed recessive white and finally albino. This is why Siamese eyes glow red in the dark.

But as has already been mentioned, the colourpoints in other breeds are the same mutation introduced originally from the Siamese although sometimes by a circuitous route. The cinnamon British Shorthairs came from a cross between a BSH and an Oriental in, I think, 1992. As Oriental Slave has said the original mating that introduced the cinnamon gene into the Oriental population was with a Siamese but I cannot remember, exact pedigrees of the cross with BSH. I do not know when BSH colourpoints were first recognised.

As has also been said, as with most characteristics in pedigree cat breeds, the differences are governed by polygenes and to get the correct eye colour the appropriate polygenes must be present so an initial intention must be to mate to good eye colour. Unfortunately, that does not always mean they will assort as desired and most breeders have to compromise and set their own priorities.



Tetley&Kenco said:


> He is GCCF registered and I have my boys' pedigrees back 5 generations and no tabby on it, although great great great grandparents are sketchy on the details


This means the spots are ghosting in the cream. I wonder if the two girls could be lilac torties not fawn, since lilac is possible as your boy is chocolate. My fawn tortie looked lilac to me and actually still does but I tested her and she is fawn. I think her poor fawn colour came from the fact that her cream is also a bad colour.









She looks a better colour above because the light is good but this second pic shows the dubious shades!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I did find some of the very early crosses to introduce cinnamon, the one SIA o I can find in Pawpeds is APRI ELCHIRIDAH PLUTO, SIA o, born 03/10/1987, sire SAYONARA BLACK MAGICIAN, dam APRI CINNAMON FIZZ. I'm sure I found one elsewhere which was a JADEVYN OSH or SIA.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> I did find some of the very early crosses to introduce cinnamon, the one SIA o I can find in Pawpeds is APRI ELCHIRIDAH PLUTO, SIA o, born 03/10/1987, sire SAYONARA BLACK MAGICIAN, dam APRI CINNAMON FIZZ. I'm sure I found one elsewhere which was a JADEVYN OSH or SIA.


I have now looked up the first cross. The parents were Ch Boadicat Mr Toddy (40/3) and Rexlizian Doughnut (37k) Six babies born 3rd March 1992. ( 2 self lilac males, 1 self lilac female, 1 self chocolate male and 2 *chocolate point* males.) Breeder was Rita Ford (Bluespice.) She kept the self lilac girl and one of the pointed males and said 'Hopefully, in 1993/4 the first British type cinnamon/fawns will be born.'

Perhaps @gskinner123 can tell us if the colourpoints were already in the British breed at that point.

(Irrelevant but Sayonara Black Magician and Apri Cinnamon Fizz are in my foundation pedigrees!)


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

QOTN said:


> You are correct that the Siamese coat pattern is one of the mutations in the albino alleles series. Full colour is the 'normal' then in order of dominance, Burmese colour restriction, Siamese colour restriction, then blue eyed recessive white and finally albino. This is why Siamese eyes glow red in the dark.
> 
> But as has already been mentioned, the colourpoints in other breeds are the same mutation introduced originally from the Siamese although sometimes by a circuitous route. The cinnamon British Shorthairs came from a cross between a BSH and an Oriental in, I think, 1992. As Oriental Slave has said the original mating that introduced the cinnamon gene into the Oriental population was with a Siamese but I cannot remember, exact pedigrees of the cross with BSH. I do not know when BSH colourpoints were first recognised.
> 
> ...


They looked cream when I met them as babies, here are baby photos of the litter ages 12.5 weeks that I took.... and I clearly forgot the girls were bicolour! So actually that fawn adolescent the breeder showed a picture of isn't one of them so I don't know what colours these girls are registered as! I know she kept the girl with less white for breeding.


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I always find the background of breeds fascinating, particularly in relation to colour or pattern introduction.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I have now looked up the first cross. The parents were Ch Boadicat Mr Toddy (40/3) and Rexlizian Doughnut (37k) Six babies born 3rd March 1992. ( 2 self lilac males, 1 self lilac female, 1 self chocolate male and 2 *chocolate point* males.) Breeder was Rita Ford (Bluespice.) She kept the self lilac girl and one of the pointed males and said 'Hopefully, in 1993/4 the first British type cinnamon/fawns will be born.'
> 
> Perhaps @gskinner123 can tell us if the colourpoints were already in the British breed at that point.
> 
> (Irrelevant but Sayonara Black Magician and Apri Cinnamon Fizz are in my foundation pedigrees!)


Just found this on Pawpeds!

https://pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=903182&g=4&p=bri


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Just found this on Pawpeds!
> 
> https://pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=903182&g=4&p=bri


Not entirely certain why they class a 75% Persian 25% Siamese as a British. The vagaries of cat breeding!!


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Not entirely certain why they class a 75% Persian 25% Siamese as a British. The vagaries of cat breeding!!


It was a long time ago!


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> It was a long time ago!


I wonder why they did it that way though, why not just mate the Siamese directly to a British?


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> It's exactly the same gene in bsh & siamese, neither are albinos. I have no idea why the eye colour is so poor in cp bsh.


Yes, sorry - I didn't specifically mean they were albino, meant albino genes. It was late!



QOTN said:


> As has also been said, as with most characteristics in pedigree cat breeds, the differences are governed by polygenes and to get the correct eye colour the appropriate polygenes must be present so an initial intention must be to mate to good eye colour. Unfortunately, that does not always mean they will assort as desired and most breeders have to compromise and set their own priorities.


I guess what I don't fully understand though, is if in a colour pointed cat the blue eyes are blue because of the abcense of colour/pigment, when a colour point cat has bad eye colour does that mean that actually the cat has some eye colour / pigment that's showing through and making the blue less blue? And is that the polygenes doing that?

Or am I just totally misunderstanding what is making the blue eye blue.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

They have reduced pigment. An eye with no pigment is pink. Polygenes will affect the depth of colour as they do in all cats.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> I wonder why they did it that way though, why not just mate the Siamese directly to a British?


I think there are other matings where that is what was done.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

The Colourpointed British Shorthair cat club was founded in 1991 and the variety was well under way by then. Cinnamon and Fawn was added several years later but they have remained very much a minority amongst the other CP colours.

I bought a seal colourpointed BSH kitten for my daughter in the early mid nineties from one of the founder breeders. He had very good eye colour by comparison to most of our current day CP's...his coat, however, was not great


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Even were it to be permissible - and it never will be - mating a BSH to a Siamese to improve eye colour is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Tigermoon - I really don't share your confidence that such big improvement can be achieved in a few generations  Or rather I'm sure it is if, for example, one used a Siamese to improve blue eye colour in BSH. But I can honestly assure you that I would then spend 15 years regaining, with consistency, what I had lost


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Tigermoon - I really don't share your confidence that such big improvement can be achieved in a few generations


I have that confidence because I've actually done it, and got back eye colour along with retaining the required type and the desired coat colour in just three years (three generations)  I'm not alone in successfully doing this either.

Having said that, I have no idea why anyone would use Siamese to improve eye colour in British when more suitable breeds exist if that was the intended purpose for such an outcross to occur.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Just found this on Pawpeds!
> https://pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=903182&g=4&p=bri


Just a spelling mistake. In his list of litters, it is obvious he had one litter in this country before going to El Chiridah's. https://pawpeds.com/db/?a=o&id=502367&g=4&p=sia&o=ajgrep

I assume Rita Ford was the first in UK.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> Even were it to be permissible - and it never will be - mating a BSH to a Siamese to improve eye colour is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
> Tigermoon - I really don't share your confidence that such big improvement can be achieved in a few generations  Or rather I'm sure it is if, for example, one used a Siamese to improve blue eye colour in BSH. But I can honestly assure you that I would then spend 15 years regaining, with consistency, what I had lost


I remember Rita Ford's shock at that first litter of 6. They were the size and weight of BSH but the temperament of Orientals, climbing the curtains and generally typical otherwise. I don't know how long it took to achieve good British type but I would have thought it would be harder to get a good coat from Persians than Orientals and outcrosses to Persians are still relatively recent in BSH.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lots of cinnamon and a few fawns there.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> I remember Rita Ford's shock at that first litter of 6. They were the size and weight of BSH but the temperament of Orientals, climbing the curtains and generally typical otherwise. I don't know how long it took to achieve good British type but I would have thought it would be harder to get a good coat from Persians than Orientals and outcrosses to Persians are still relatively recent in BSH.


I saw some of the 1990s cats when I lived in Leeds and they were very foxy.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> A pretty and delicate colour.* Nice to see you posting again qotn*


Very.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> I have that confidence because I've actually done it, and got back eye colour along with retaining the required type and the desired coat colour in just three years (three generations)  I'm not alone in successfully doing this either.
> 
> Having said that, I have no idea why anyone would use Siamese to improve eye colour in British when more suitable breeds exist if that was the intended purpose for such an outcross to occur.


I have seen people, good breeders, strive to make a significant improvement in eye colour - any eye colour - within a few generations. In my and the shared experiences of others it is hard to achieve - to me, the key is consistency and maintaining it in subsequent generations.

One may be fortunate enough (I am talking about my own breed as that's my only experience) to get a kitten with much improved eye colour. But when your only available option for the next generation is poor eye colour then you don't have a lot of choice do you? Such is breeding; a few big strides forward with a bit of luck on your side and a step back next time


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I saw some of the 1990s cats when I lived in Leeds and they were very foxy.


Without wishing to be unkind - they had to start somewhere - they were dreadful for type and remained that way for a very long time indeed. Even now one can still see their ancestral influence in some cats of these colours


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> Lots of cinnamon and a few fawns there.


If you mean Pluto's offspring, it is interesting that apparently he only sired the one litter to other than Siamese and Oriental.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> If you mean Pluto's offspring, it is interesting that apparently he only sired the one litter to other than Siamese and Oriental.


I did.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

What's interesting about a shorthaired - BSH - breed is that a lot of breeders are very anti eliminating long hair carriers from the gene pool (there was discussion at BAC level when the BLH was recognised).

Again, I'm not convinced (lack of evidence) but it's felt that the presence of the longhair gene gives the BSH its coat qualities and without it, over many generations, the coat would become flat and sleek.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> What's interesting about a shorthaired - BSH - breed is that a lot of breeders are very anti eliminating long hair carriers from the gene pool (there was discussion at BAC level when the BLH was recognised).
> 
> Again, I'm not convinced (lack of evidence) but it's felt that the presence of the longhair gene gives the BSH its coat qualities and without it, over many generations, the coat would become flat and sleek.


I guess there may be some polygenes close enough to lh on the chromosome they tend to travel with it, but dna testing a number of cats with a fab coat might disprove the theory. How many would need a statistician which I'm not.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I very much hope that the BLH continues. I saw a silver tipped BLH yesterday, which was a dream to handle and had the wow factor.

I wonder are breeders put off the BLH because its type is much harder to see through the fur?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> I very much hope that the BLH continues. I saw a silver tipped BLH yesterday, which was a dream to handle and had the wow factor.
> 
> I wonder are breeders put off the BLH because its type is much harder to see through the fur?


I think the BLH will be very popular. One was best section 3 neuter at the Supreme. People who bemoan what the modern Persian is should like it, though the coat texture should be very different to the Persian.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> I think the BLH will be very popular. One was best section 3 neuter at the Supreme. People who bemoan what the modern Persian is should like it, though the coat texture should be very different to the Persian.


I would imagine the coat is more manageable that a Persian's floof


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> I would imagine the coat is more manageable that a Persian's floof


I imagine so though I'm not sure how variable it is at present. And I gather Persian coats vary, some needing more upkeep than others. Thankfully all osh need is hand grooming aka stroking. A bicolour might need feet washing so they are white, and paler entires might need their scrotum wiping if it's stained. Basils had a yellow stain from woodchip litter


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> I very much hope that the BLH continues. I saw a silver tipped BLH yesterday, which was a dream to handle and had the wow factor.
> 
> I wonder are breeders put off the BLH because its type is much harder to see through the fur?


I am not sure that their popularity as a pet will ever really take off and I do SO hope that breeders aim to ensure a manageable coat.

I think a few semi longhaired breeds have grown in popularity (apart from temperament and other factors that people choose on) because they are fairly natural looking breeds with coats that are relatively easy to care for. People are busy; they work increasingly long hours and many people don't want the commitment of a high maintenance coat.

Believe me...very, very many BLH have extremely high maintenance coats.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I am not sure that their popularity as a pet will ever really take off and I do SO hope that breeders aim to ensure a manageable coat.
> 
> I think a few semi longhaired breeds have grown in popularity (apart from temperament and other factors that people choose on) because they are fairly natural looking breeds with coats that are relatively easy to care for. People are busy; they work increasingly long hours and many people don't want the commitment of a high maintenance coat.
> 
> Believe me...very, very many BLH have extremely high maintenance coats.


What is it that's high maintenance, do they know easily?


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> They looked cream when I met them as babies, here are baby photos of the litter ages 12.5 weeks that I took.... and I clearly forgot the girls were bicolour! So actually that fawn adolescent the breeder showed a picture of isn't one of them so I don't know what colours these girls are registered as! I know she kept the girl with less white for breeding.


They look a lovely pale cream to me.


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

QOTN said:


> They look a lovely pale cream to me.


Yes I agree, complete opposite to their dark brothers!


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> What is it that's high maintenance, do they know easily?


I have owned two and bred a number over the years although under BSHv registration which, as I'm sure you know, is the same thing.

Many have all the qualities of a good BSH coat being incredibly thick/dense with lots of woolly undercoat in combination with a long silky top coat.

Blink, and the undercoat develops small matts that you cannot leave; it's the 'dry' woolly quality of the undercoat that is problematical.

Several of my kittens have gone to homes with an existing BLH. All three owners said the same - they had Persians many years ago but did not like how typy they had become and thought that a BLH would be similar to an old fashioned Persian but with a semi long hair, easier to groom coat. All three have to use professional groomers.

Not all are this difficult of course but very many are and I would personally like too see more candidness from some breeders when selling these kittens.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

gskinner123 said:


> I have owned two and bred a number over the years although under BSHv registration which, as I'm sure you know, is the same thing.
> 
> Many have all the qualities of a good BSH coat being incredibly thick/dense with lots of woolly undercoat in combination with a long silky top coat.
> 
> ...


Ah I'm with you now, thank you. It wasn't something I was aware of before, but it makes sense. Presumably they use groomers for clipping as well as combing?


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> People are busy; they work increasingly long hours and many people don't want the commitment of a high maintenance coat.
> 
> Believe me...very, very many BLH have extremely high maintenance coats.


Funnily enough I've spoken about this with several of my friends who breed BLH. All of them said that BLH coats were 'difficult'.

I agree with you that pet people don't want high maintenance coats. I've noticed it with the Persians (people ask if they really have to brush them every day) and it's been given as a reason why several of my Persian breeding friends have switched, either completely or mostly, to Exotics.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I only know a handful of BLH as most breeders have bred out the carriers, the coats are dreadful to maintain and are clipped most of the time to keep it more manageable.


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

spotty cats said:


> I only know a handful of BLH as most breeders have bred out the carriers, the coats are dreadful to maintain and are clipped most of the time to keep it more manageable.


I try, for the most part, to keep my head down nowadays re the BLH. Their fairly recent recognition by GCCF was acrimonious.

Every time I voiced an opinion I was accused of not "liking" them. So apart from the manner in which they were recognised (which I did disagree with)...yes, their coats can be an utter disaster for people


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> <snip>
> yes, their coats can be an utter disaster for people


Is this because many BLH don't have the correct coat? Of is the correct coat a problem?


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Is this because many BLH don't have the correct coat? Of is the correct coat a problem?


I don't know the answer to that. They are very new and I guess it would take time to develop the right coat, more consistently....

.....if ever. Due to the manner in which they were recognised, there is zero incentive to develop them as the new stand alone breed because 'dual purpose' breeding was allowed - ie one may register and show BSH and BLH from within the same litter. Many of us did not see how one could be doing the best for both breeds - one a long hair one a shorthair.

Under GCCF registration I can count dedicated BLH breeders on one hand.


----------



## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

My friend has Floofy a BLH. He is wonderful but yes his coat is high maintenance. He is 3 generations BSH with an EXO back 4 generations. He is a show cat and has done very well. I live his squishy face, he reminds me of old style Persians


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> There is no such thing as 'the fawn gene' any more than there is 'the blue gene'.
> 
> Fawn is dilute cinnamon, not a recessive of cinnamon. Cinnamon is recessive to chocolate which is recessive to black.
> 
> ...


Wow gorgeous !

UPDATE my girl has just given birth to 6 lilac babies.


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

Tetley&Kenco said:


> @Holly BtoB I haven't seen a BSH colourpoint before so I googled to find photos and came across this entry on a website, I do not know how accurate it is though! If it is accurate, maybe the extra genetic test makes it more unpopular to breed from a breeder perspective?
> 
> http://www.bombadillokittens.com/articles/colourpoint-british-shorthair


Oh wow very interesting read indeed Thankyou! X


----------



## Holly BtoB (Feb 7, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> And if @Holly BtoB wondered, I've seen cinnamon & fawn BSH. I preferred the fawn, very much because the orange eyes stand out against it. They rather blend into a cinnamon coat, which is well named as it's just about the same colour as a stick of cinnamon.


Yes the sire to my last litter was a fawn BSH. He was a gorgeous boy. I too prefer fawn over cinnamon for this reason


----------



## Tetley&Kenco (Aug 21, 2019)

Holly BtoB said:


> Wow gorgeous !
> 
> UPDATE my girl has just given birth to 6 lilac babies.


Congrats on the new arrivals! 6 is a lot!


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Holly BtoB said:


> Wow gorgeous !
> 
> UPDATE my girl has just given birth to 6 lilac babies.


Congratulations, I adore lilacs


----------



## El Chiridah (8 mo ago)

Ch.Apri Elchiridah Pluto was my Cinnamon point import bred by Sharon and Dave Walker. Any questions regarding introduction of the Cinnamon gene into the Persians and Burmese are welcomed.


----------



## El Chiridah (8 mo ago)

OrientalSlave said:


> Just found this on Pawpeds!
> The Australian Cattery mentioned belonged to Nory Broers of Mierlo.


----------



## El Chiridah (8 mo ago)

QOTN said:


> Just a spelling mistake. In his list of litters, it is obvious he had one litter in this country before going to El Chiridah's.
> I assume Rita Ford was the first in UK.


Pluto came to me as a kitten (4 months old). Hand delivered by his breeder Sharon & Dave Walker and his Sire's breeder Glenda Worthy (Sayonara).


----------

