# The Guardian Forced To Admit We're Doing Just Fine Thanks.



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

*Britain will be fastest growing G7 economy this year, says IMF*

Despite the referendum and the uncertainties of how Brexit will be implemented things are looking good.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

It's amazing how they can manipulate figures to get the answer they want.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

samuelsmiles said:


> *Britain will be fastest growing G7 economy this year, says IMF*
> 
> Despite the referendum and the uncertainties of how Brexit will be implemented things are looking good.


Now now don't you go being positive or trying to spread any positive news, its not allowed. Negativity is the order of the day for many it seems.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> It's amazing how they can manipulate figures to get the answer they want.


And that can always be said for both sides of the argument.
If you have a good read and divide it by half you probably nearly have the truth


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

We haven't left the EU yet...


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Now now don't you go being positive or trying to spread any positive news, its not allowed. Negativity is the order of the day for many it seems.


The newspapers would have you believe it's all because of Brexit when the UK hasn't even left yet though!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

There's some even more great news. We have a hint at what the Governments plan is for the Brexit negotiations


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Like 60bln hole right in the middle of budget?
*cheeky walks round muttering" keep smiling..keep smiling "


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm shocked the price of the Guardian is two quid , I thought it's low sales was due to the fact its so boring and causes narcolepsy but it must be the cost that put people off.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> The newspapers would have you believe it's all because of Brexit when the UK hasn't even left yet though!


Yes and conversely we have heard nothing but negative news and doom and gloom predictions ever since the referendum. As a country we seem to like to wallow in negativity instead of getting on with and making it work.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes and conversely we have heard nothing but negative news and doom and gloom predictions ever since the referendum. As a country we seem to like to wallow in negativity instead of getting on with and making it work.


Brexit will never work for me personally as it goes against everything I passionately believe in and nothing will make me change my mind on the matter.

The best solution for me personally is adapting to the Norway/Swiss arrangement. Not going to comment further as our views are well known and is something we have to agree to disagree on.

Having said that you are right though, how often do you see a good news story about the NHS for example? Funnily enough our local BBC Look North (NE&Cumbria) DID this evening and was the top news story! Didn't get a mention on the National News of course.


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

Norway? Follow EU rulings with none of the say/ no part in the decision making process.... Welcome to the EEA


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

@samuelsmiles The guardian hasn't been forced to admit anything Its reporting news as news - which is what all media outlets should be doing, rather than dressing up opinion & propaganda as news.

Did you actually read past the headline? And we haven't even left the EU yet.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> There's some even more great news. We have a hint at what the Governments plan is for the Brexit negotiations
> View attachment 291769


Heres a better close up of the leaked brexit plans lol


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Heres a better close up of the leaked brexit plans lol
> 
> View attachment 291782


That's better than the one the news kept repeating on a loop all day yesterday on TV


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> Brexit will never work for me personally as it goes against everything I passionately believe in and nothing will make me change my mind on the matter.
> 
> The best solution for me personally is adapting to the Norway/Swiss arrangement. Not going to comment further as our views are well known and is something we have to agree to disagree on.
> 
> Having said that you are right though, how often do you see a good news story about the NHS for example? Funnily enough our local BBC Look North (NE&Cumbria) DID this evening and was the top news story! Didn't get a mention on the National News of course.


I know I think its really sad that all we hear on the news most days is doom and gloom when there are so many people out there doing fantastic jobs, doing voluntary work, raising money for good causes and generally getting on with their lives. In the grand scheme of things politicians are pretty irrelevant dots on the landscape. I don't know why its so hard to find good news stories when there are plenty. A very good friend of mine a few years ago - quite an elderly man told me he got so down from watching the news and the weather forecasts so his wife banned them, no papers, no news and no weather. He said it worked wonders for him as he started each day bright and looking forward to what it would bring rather than waiting for the next doom story to hit or the next person to tell him it is going to pour with rain all day only for it to brighten up later on anyway. I try and remember his wise words.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I know I think its really sad that all we hear on the news most days is doom and gloom when there are so many people out there doing fantastic jobs, doing voluntary work, raising money for good causes and generally getting on with their lives. In the grand scheme of things politicians are pretty irrelevant dots on the landscape. I don't know why its so hard to find good news stories when there are plenty. A very good friend of mine a few years ago - quite an elderly man told me he got so down from watching the news and the weather forecasts so his wife banned them, no papers, no news and no weather. He said it worked wonders for him as he started each day bright and looking forward to what it would bring rather than waiting for the next doom story to hit or the next person to tell him it is going to pour with rain all day only for it to brighten up later on anyway. I try and remember his wise words.


I refuse to watch / listen to the news, weather forecast and have never read a paper as I don't want all that doom and gloom. Granted if I see something I think I should know about, or I see a nice story on the internet I read it, but other then that I keep away from that kinda thing.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

And you can avoid all that until it hits home.
It looks like our government would change the law which allow my company to function.
And all others offering the same services.
So we all would be jobless and on the dole soon.
We were told today though the were rumours for a while.

Autumn statement clearly announced changes to pension law. Money would be made on taking it from your pensions. Especially those who saved a lot hoping to invest it would be hit.
Better was to live on the dole while life and save nothing.

Thank you Brexit.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Better was to live on the dole while life and save nothing.


Oh yes, but aren't they going to reintroduce the workhouse?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm amazed at the number of ordinary individuals who suddenly became expert economists pre and post referendum. All this discussion about economic forecasts - ie crystal ball gazing. Are you better off now than you were six months ago and will you be better off in another six months than you are now? Doesn't make a blind bit off difference what the papers say either way if you aren't getting some benefit.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> I'm amazed at the number of ordinary individuals who suddenly became expert economists pre and post referendum. All this discussion about economic forecasts - ie crystal ball gazing. Are you better off now than you were six months ago and will you be better off in another six months than you are now? Doesn't make a blind bit off difference what the papers say either way if you aren't getting some benefit.


I am about to be made redundant due to changes brought by Brexit.
So guess...


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Have we left the EU yet? Surely it only matters about the shape of the economy in the case of for and against Brexit once we actually leave?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> I am about to be made redundant due to changes brought by Brexit.
> So guess...


We haven't left the EU yet so how can Brexit be the fault of the company you work for laying you off. This happens everyday people being laid off. From what you have said the company you are working for was considering these actions for a while so is nothing to do with what is currently going on. We aren't even in negotiations over Brexit at the moment so things are in the same way they were before the vote on the 23rd June 2016, the only thing that has changed is we have a new PM and the court case in the High Court, and America has elected Donald Trump as next president of the USA. Brexit hasn't happened yet so can't be blamed for anything.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> We haven't left the EU yet so how can Brexit be the fault of the company you work for laying you off. This happens everyday people being laid off. From what you have said the company you are working for was considering these actions for a while so is nothing to do with what is currently going on. We aren't even in negotiations over Brexit at the moment so things are in the same way they were before the vote on the 23rd June 2016, the only thing that has changed is we have a new PM and the court case in the High Court, and America has elected Donald Trump as next president of the USA. Brexit hasn't happened yet so can't be blamed for anything.


Autumn statement promises changes to pensions law. Therefore our financial services would not be possible. 
Already clients are backing off. This means much less work with new clients. And no more once new law introduced.
Under EU you have freedom of movement of capital.
The freedom of transfers of your savings in pension schemes would be limited. EU laws would not apply anymore.
If interested it is well explained in Finance section on MSN.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Autumn statement promises changes to pensions law. Therefore our financial services would not be possible.
> Already clients are backing off. This means much less work with new clients. And no more once new law introduced.
> Under EU you have freedom of movement of capital.
> The restrictions to be introduced are meant to end tax relief on pensions.
> If interested it is well explained in Finance section on MSN.


Which part of the autumn statement? I watched it live on telly and don't remember this being mentioned. MPs are asking for the triple lock on state pensions to be scrapped but if I remember the chancellor said he wasn't doing this. He did say they are planning to crack down and banning on cold callers trying to rip pensioners off which I agree with.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tax/news/autumn-statement-2016-will-better-worse/amp/


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Which part of the autumn statement? I watched it live on telly and don't remember this being mentioned. MPs are asking for the triple lock on state pensions to be scrapped but if I remember the chancellor said he wasn't doing this.


The Autumn Statement is much more than TV snippets. Our lawyers are sitting on it now but it does not look good .
You must be aware that even though Gibraltar is very good and reliable , well regulated jurisdiction, those restrictions and changes would cost many more jobs.
Not only mine. Already four of my friends are losing their jobs.
Companies are moving out of Gibraltar.
They want security and flexibility.
This is not just a rant.
My boss told us today.
We really worked hard putting everything together. Many extra unpaid hours. 
Hoping it will pay off and it was going well.
Good team getting along nicely.
I have children and animals to feed.
We all do.
Yes. Feeling a bit down.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> The Autumn Statement is much more than TV snippets. Our lawyers are sitting on it now but it does not look good .
> You must be aware that even though Gibraltar is very good and reliable , well regulated jurisdiction, those restrictions and changes would cost many more jobs.
> Not only mine. Already four of my friends are losing their jobs.
> Companies are moving out of Gibraltar.
> ...


This is nothing to do with Brexit though as Brexit hasn't happened. It sounds as if the company you work for is like alot of companies going under. But again this is nothing to do with Brexit as it hasn't happened yet, companies go bust everyday. The Chancellor said he is not removing the triple lock on state pensions and ISA savers can save up to £20,000 a year from April 2017 and the Government is planning to crack down/banning pension cold callers so where is the problem with pensions you keep mentioning? It may well be the company you are working for may be having problems being able to pay out pensions to those that are entitled to the companies pension scheme. The company you work for isn't owned by Sir Philip Green is it?

I feel you are looking for every excuse to blame Brexit but Brexit hasn't happened yet so blame can't be put there. You stated the company you work for was planning to do this anyway. They are either in financial trouble or on the verge of going bust, companies do this every single day in the UK and around the world. Or the company you work for is cost cutting have you ever thought that's what they may well be doing and getting rid of staff that aren't needed? So how is Brexit to be blamed for this when they where considering this before the vote and Brexit hasn't happened yet?

It's so easy to blame Brexit for the misfortunes a company is going through but Brexit simply hasn't happened yet we aren't even negotiating at the moment.

Lloyd's Bank laid staff off on a previously planned restructuring move recently but the press blamed this on Brexit .

Did you know that a survey was done recently by a newspaper asking those that voted to leave how they would vote if another Referendum was to take place. 90 odd percent said they have no regrets voting leave and would vote the same again. So we are leaving the EU after the negotiations take place and Brexit eventually happens you'll just have to get used to it.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> This is nothing to do with Brexit though as Brexit hasn't happened. It sounds as if the company you work for is like alot of companies going under. But again this is nothing to do with Brexit as it hasn't happened yet, companies go bust everyday. The Chancellor said he is not removing the triple lock on state pensions and ISA savers can save up to £20,000 a year from April 2017 and the Government is planning to crack down/banning pension cold callers so where is the problem with pensions you keep mentioning? It may well be the company you are working for may be having problems being able to pay out pensions to those that are entitled to the companies pension scheme. The company you work for isn't owned by Sir Philip Green is it?
> 
> I feel you are looking for every excuse to blame Brexit but Brexit hasn't happened yet so blame can't be put there. You stated the company you work for was planning to do this anyway. They are either in financial trouble or on the verge of going bust, companies do this every single day in the UK and around the world. Or the company you work for is cost cutting have you ever thought that's what they may well be doing and getting rid of staff that aren't needed? So how is Brexit to be blamed for this when they where considering this before the vote and Brexit hasn't happened yet?


Yes indeed but it has created a lot of uncertainty for the long term. Many people are extremely worried about what will actually happen when Brexit is complete, eg: Will single market access still apply or not.

It makes business sense to plan for the future. From that point of view, not my own, it makes more sense to move production to a country where access to the single market is not in jeopardy as it currently is in the UK.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Yes indeed but it has created a lot of uncertainty for the long term. Many people are extremely worried about what will actually happen when Brexit is complete, eg: Will single market access still apply or not.
> 
> It makes business sense to plan for the future. From that point of view, not my own, it makes more sense to move production to a country where access to the single market is not in jeopardy as it currently is in the UK.


Where is safe?
The Netherlands are voting for a new PM in March 2017 and the one that has most popularity is Geert Wilders (PVV Party), he is way ahead in the polls and favourite to win, he wants a Nexit Referendum and the majority of Dutch people are behind him with this. The French are voting after this and both parties that are facing off against each other are center right (Francois Fillon) and far right (Marine Le Penn) both want to crack down on Islam and immigration. The far right want a Frexit Referendum. In Germany a poll has been done and the over half of Germans want to leave the EU and the Far Right party in Germany have promised a Referendum for them to leave the EU. There won't be any EU left if everyone is wanting to leave, Brussels Club will collapse (The EU).


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> This is nothing to do with Brexit though as Brexit hasn't happened. It sounds as if the company you work for is like alot of companies going under. But again this is nothing to do with Brexit as it hasn't happened yet, companies go bust everyday. The Chancellor said he is not removing the triple lock on state pensions and ISA savers can save up to £20,000 a year from April 2017 and the Government is planning to crack down/banning pension cold callers so where is the problem with pensions you keep mentioning? It may well be the company you are working for may be having problems being able to pay out pensions to those that are entitled to the companies pension scheme. The company you work for isn't owned by Sir Philip Green is it?
> 
> I feel you are looking for every excuse to blame Brexit but Brexit hasn't happened yet so blame can't be put there. You stated the company you work for was planning to do this anyway. They are either in financial trouble or on the verge of going bust, companies do this every single day in the UK and around the world. Or the company you work for is cost cutting have you ever thought that's what they may well be doing and getting rid of staff that aren't needed? So how is Brexit to be blamed for this when they where considering this before the vote and Brexit hasn't happened yet?
> 
> ...


Think you deliberately try not to understand: If change of law means that we cannot carry on that is it.
Obviously we can operate till Brexit happens because until then we operate under EU law.
But clients wonder what after that?
We can only do what is legal in our jurisdiction and jurisdiction of our clients.
Planned legal changes would curtail freedom of movement of capital in this particular area.

Unless you know something our lawyers don't?

So all your comparisons to failing banks are irrelevant here.

Say: If we import potatoes from Britain and Britain introduces ban on export of potatoes then does not matter how well our trade was doing.
No more potatoes to sell.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Think you deliberately try not to understand: If change of law means that we cannot carry on that is it.
> Obviously we can operate till Brexit happens because until then we operate under EU law.
> But clients wonder what after that?
> We can only do what is legal in our jurisdiction and jurisdiction of our clients.
> ...


What changes in the law?
The pensions are protected?
No I am not being naive. The chancellor has said he isn't changing anything in the law around pensions.
Seriously alot of paranoia going on there.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> This is nothing to do with Brexit though as Brexit hasn't happened. It sounds as if the company you work for is like alot of companies going under. But again this is nothing to do with Brexit as it hasn't happened yet, companies go bust everyday. The Chancellor said he is not removing the triple lock on state pensions and ISA savers can save up to £20,000 a year from April 2017 and the Government is planning to crack down/banning pension cold callers so where is the problem with pensions you keep mentioning? It may well be the company you are working for may be having problems being able to pay out pensions to those that are entitled to the companies pension scheme. The company you work for isn't owned by Sir Philip Green is it?
> 
> I feel you are looking for every excuse to blame Brexit but Brexit hasn't happened yet so blame can't be put there. You stated the company you work for was planning to do this anyway. They are either in financial trouble or on the verge of going bust, companies do this every single day in the UK and around the world. Or the company you work for is cost cutting have you ever thought that's what they may well be doing and getting rid of staff that aren't needed? So how is Brexit to be blamed for this when they where considering this before the vote and Brexit hasn't happened yet?
> 
> ...


I guess this is about the proposed alignment of overseas pension tax treatment for UK tax residents and particularly that this might close the loopholes on transfers to qrops (many which are homed in Gibraltar). So, yes it would have consequences to some Gibraltar firms but only those involved in aggressive tax avoidance schemes for wealthy expats with cute accountants. It is a typically hamfisted move from another uneducated / inexperienced chancellor but it has absolutely nothing to do with brexit.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Satori said:


> I guess this is about the proposed alignment of overseas pension tax treatment for UK tax residents and particularly that this might close the loopholes on transfers to qrops (many which are homed in Gibraltar). So, yes it would have consequences to some Gibraltar firms but only those involved in aggressive tax avoidance schemes for wealthy expats with cute accountants. It is a typically hamfisted move from another uneducated / inexperienced chancellor but it has absolutely nothing to do with brexit.


Have I got this right then it's to do with clamping down on tax dodging firms abroad or firms helping wealthy people tax dodge abroad? Well everyone has to pay there taxes.


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

stockwellcat said:


> Have I got this right then it's to do with clamping down on tax dodging firms abroad or firms helping wealthy people tax dodge abroad? Well everyone has to pay there taxes.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Satori said:


> View attachment 291867












Guess who's coming after you?









About time too.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Where is safe?
> The Netherlands are voting for a new PM in March 2017 and the one that has most popularity is Geert Wilders (PVV Party), he is way ahead in the polls and favourite to win, he wants a Nexit Referendum and the majority of Dutch people are behind him with this. The French are voting after this and both parties that are facing off against each other are center right (Francois Fillon) and far right (Marine Le Penn) both want to crack down on Islam and immigration. The far right want a Frexit Referendum. In Germany a poll has been done and the over half of Germans want to leave the EU and the Far Right party in Germany have promised a Referendum for them to leave the EU. There won't be any EU left if everyone is wanting to leave, Brussels Club will collapse (The EU).


A lot can happen between now and then. If, heaven forbid, the far right do win in these countries there's no guarantee they would win such a referendum. Would the people there want hard borders with Belgium and other countries when they currently enjoy the freedom to travel there at present?

The thing is the UK as a whole did vote to leave which has created this uncertainty.

You mention the French people etc., as a whole. That's like saying everyone in the UK voted for Brexit and back UKIP. The right wing press will obviously suggest otherwise like they believe everyone wants Brexit and name call the 16+ million opponents who didn't.

I'm reasonably optimistic the far right, who may make significant gains will not take power in these countries.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

My glass in half full
Not half empty


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> *Would the people there want hard borders with Belgium and other countries when they currently enjoy the freedom to travel there at present?*


Probably. Yes. Reason. The recent migrant crisis in Europe and this is what the majority of what I have been reading is the reason for these parties becoming so popular in there countries and they don't share the same vision the EU has of being one happy utopia called the EU.

Dutchnews.nl isn't right wing it is a Dutch news paper for expats. Also googled Geert Wilders and checked out latest Dutch polls. If there was to be an election today the PVV Party would win the majority vote. They current ruling party is the VVD and is pretty out of touch with the Dutch people.

















https://mobile.twitter.com/geertwilderspvv?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Geert Wilders is double what Nigel Farage is and has alot of influence in Holland.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

The French elections has been all over TV.

The German poll was mentioned on the news this morning.

Own research to back up these claims as I know how much you hate me not providing this information.

Not any right wing press above.

RT News: https://www.rt.com/document/583d6365c36188f1198b4695/amp

Dutch News: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/11/geert-wilders-pvv-back-on-top-in-latest-poll-of-polls/


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

I think (I hope anyway) polls can be taken with a pinch of salt nowadays. 

I only hope so. It's ultimately up to the people of these countries to decide.....


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> I think (I hope anyway) polls can be taken with a pinch of salt nowadays.
> 
> I only hope so. It's ultimately up to the people of these countries to decide.....


British polls yes.
Not sure with Holland though.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

America got it wrong though!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> America got it wrong though!


If they have they'll have to wait 4 years to vote Trump out  but I think he's the right man for the job. It's called change. People are tired of main stream politics where they aren't being listened to, this applies to Holland, France and Germany as well  People want to be listened to and not ignored by the people they chose to run there country.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Satori said:


> I guess this is about the proposed alignment of overseas pension tax treatment for UK tax residents and particularly that this might close the loopholes on transfers to qrops (many which are homed in Gibraltar). So, yes it would have consequences to some Gibraltar firms but only those involved in aggressive tax avoidance schemes for wealthy expats with cute accountants. It is a typically hamfisted move from another uneducated / inexperienced chancellor but it has absolutely nothing to do with brexit.


Something to do with hole in the budget? Actually we do not work with high net at all. Very much ordinary people like me with modest provision.
Teachers, shop managers, soldiers..tinker taylor.

Obviously high net would go round it even if have to be domiciled out of UK.

Do you think that taking 55% tax from widows and orphans is justified ?
Or is it very aggressive HRMC preying on bereft?
Or leaving your savings for your family is aggressive tax avoidance?
Obviously saving rates in UK are so appealing...
It will affect Gibraltar , Channel Islands and many UK based companies too..
Quite a few pension products are under question.
By the way: If you talk high net and dodgy then you talk Caymans.

High net would use holdings and all kind.
Only the ordinary folks would be really hit.

Gibraltar actually takes taxes. And sends reports to HMRC , plus all the anti tax evasion procedures. 
It is still British soil.
Plus Spain keeps beady eye on our financial offers looking always for reasons to complain.

And you @Satori know that pretty well.

Want to hide your money from taxman then take it out of Europe...Dubai? and few others far far away...

Why taking your savings on which tax was paid in UK already when earned that money, and spending them as you want is aggressive tax avoidance?

That is very much propaganda and you are no Robin Hood.

Are you keeping your savings at 0.025 rate in UK till taxman takes 55% of it?


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2016)

stockwellcat said:


> If they have they'll have to wait 4 years to vote Trump out  but I think he's the right man for the job. It's called change. People are tired of main stream politics where they aren't being listened to, this applies to Holland, France and Germany as well  People want to be listened to and not ignored by the people they chose to run there country.


I agree that people don't feel listened to, and we need someone who is going to listen to ALL the people, but you can't possibly be serious about Trump being the one who is going to listen?! Have you even remotely been following the election here, his cabinet appointments, or his behavior since being elected?! Good grief!


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Personally speaking I don't like anything too right nor too left.

There was a man many years ago who was democratically elected who did make his country great again at the expense of minorities and went too far in invading other countries.

Then there was Stalin and the iron curtain.

Do people really want to go back to those days?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Personally speaking I don't like anything too right nor too left.
> 
> There was a man many years ago who was democratically elected who did make his country great again at the expense of minorities and went too far in invading other countries.
> 
> ...


Ditto.
Actually Stalin was worse. Killed mostly his own people.
Executed 30 mil Polish PoWs in Katyn and more in other places and accused Germans.
Even Hitler would not do that.
All is extremes end up in dictatorship and repressions against anyone who does not agree.

Fanatics are more dangerous than self serving muppets. More trigger happy.

But Trump is a muppet. Hope at least no TTIP...


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

stockwellcat said:


> We haven't left the EU yet so how can Brexit be the fault of the company you work for laying you off. This happens everyday people being laid off. From what you have said the company you are working for was considering these actions for a while so is nothing to do with what is currently going on. We aren't even in negotiations over Brexit at the moment so things are in the same way they were before the vote on the 23rd June 2016, the only thing that has changed is we have a new PM and the court case in the High Court, and America has elected Donald Trump as next president of the USA. Brexit hasn't happened yet so can't be blamed for anything.


I know of three large UK based companies that are making redundancies because of various reasons, not one of them is Brexit, though that is the reason they are telling the 'minions'. It gives a better image of the companies in question to blame 'the government' as opposed to highlighting any internal issues in the companies themselves. That's business for you ya tho!


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Some companies here move directly because of Brexit , some less directly being afraid that Spain would take over.
Or frontier closes. Or there would be so many disruptions, disputes and trouble that it is better to get out.
Financial services are very good, clean, low budget production but that also.make them so easy to.move.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Have I got this right then it's to do with clamping down on tax dodging firms abroad or firms helping wealthy people tax dodge abroad? Well everyone has to pay there taxes.


No. You got it wrong. Every client vetted. Every penny earned by client was taxed already. Everything reported to HMRC and double checked. Only documented funds from known sources which are UK registered.
Plus actually no high net ..
Just ordinary people.
It is British law and British territory.
Not Caymans.
I myself save every month small sum in certain fund ,how is that illegal?

And if want to leave it to my OH is that dodgy?
Aggressive tax avoidance?

People try to avoid double and triple taxation from greedy taxman exploiting their lack of knowledge.

Unless you think that living on benefits and then state pension is a virtue.

Then everyone who worked hard and has work pension is dodgy.

Some financial solutions allowed you to transfer your pensions to your beneficiaries with moderate tax, not 55% !

So basically Satori knows you cannot tell the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Most people confuse those two and propaganda exploits it.

Have you heard of ISA? Saved you on tax.
It is tax avoidance then. Offered in UK.
Also interesting what may happen to it..
Basically the hole of 60bln has to be covered so many tax reliefs would be gone.

It would be ironic twist of fate if it affected you too one day...


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stuaz said:


> I know of three large UK based companies that are making redundancies because of various reasons, not one of them is Brexit, though that is the reason they are telling the 'minions'. It gives a better image of the companies in question to blame 'the government' as opposed to highlighting any internal issues in the companies themselves. That's business for you ya tho!


OH's place is taking in orders hand over fist, far more than they have for years and they import a fair amount. A non essential, so people aren't struggling yet


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Good news and bad news , British gas and SEE are holding their prices until Spring but petrol will be going up in January due to Opec limiting the number of barrels produced to force up prices. Nothing to do with Brexit.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> Good news and bad news , British gas and SEE are holding their prices until Spring but petrol will be going up in January due to Opec limiting the number of barrels produced to force up prices. Nothing to do with Brexit.


Indeed, I'm strongly pro EU as you know.

Even I can't blame Brexit for Opec limiting barrels in order to force up prices!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

https://www.ft.com/content/7ceb876c-b58d-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

*
Farmers are warning of a labour crisis on the land after a sharp fall in the number of seasonal workers - overwhelmingly from the EU - willing to pick vegetables on Britain's farms. 
*
Oh dear.

I wonder how many farmers voted for brexit I'm sure theres no need to worry though, as all the brexiteers will step up to the plate & fill the jobs lol


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> If they have they'll have to wait 4 years to vote Trump out  but I think he's the right man for the job. It's called change. People are tired of main stream politics where they aren't being listened to, this applies to Holland, France and Germany as well  People want to be listened to and not ignored by the people they chose to run there country.


Its hard to believe someone thinks fascism is a change for the better.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> https://www.ft.com/content/7ceb876c-b58d-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d
> 
> *
> Farmers are warning of a labour crisis on the land after a sharp fall in the number of seasonal workers - overwhelmingly from the EU - willing to pick vegetables on Britain's farms.
> ...


Those jobs can be offered to those unemployed benefit seekers?

But the latest I farmers are demanding access to singel market. Oh..and free movement of workers.
Why did they vote for Brexit? Remind me...


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Those jobs can be offered to those unemployed benefit seekers?
> 
> But the latest I farmers are demanding access to singel market. Oh..and free movement of workers.
> Why did they vote for Brexit? Remind me...


That was part of the reason why people voted to leave the EU because there was a shortage of jobs, so yes it would be a good idea to offer the unemployed this work but at the National Living wage rate of pay.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> That was part of the reason why people voted to leave the EU because there was a shortage of jobs, so yes it would be a good idea to offer the unemployed this work but at the National Living wage rate of pay.


Actually, you are right. Many fell for the age old, "Bl**dy foreigners taking our jobs" point of view.

In doing so these people will most likely lose their right to do seasonal work within the EU, say in Spain or France for example when free movement ends.

I totally agree with your last sentence. If the unemployed are told they have to do this work they should be paid at least the National Living wage rate of pay.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> Good news and bad news , British gas and SEE are holding their prices until Spring but petrol will be going up in January due to Opec limiting the number of barrels produced to force up prices. Nothing to do with Brexit.


Except of course that the Leave vote pushed sterling 15% lower, so any increase in the dollar price of oil pushes our petrol price up by more than it otherwise would have done.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

If only there was a European organisation the UK could be part of that allowed free movement and use of the single market*. *
*:Hilarious







;,*







(by David Schneider)


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> If only there was a European organisation the UK could be part of that allowed free movement and use of the single market*.*
> *:Hilarious
> View attachment 291911
> ;,*
> ...


Regarding Boris, he corrected the press as he apparently didn't say this.

Regarding Davis I can see Theresa May slapping him down again.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding Boris, he corrected the press as he apparently didn't say this.
> 
> Regarding Davis I can see Theresa May slapping him down again.


You believe Boris?:Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Regarding Boris, he corrected the press as he apparently didn't say this.


After his top performance in impersonating Farage during the referendum, he said at the last minute he wanted to give amnesty to the illegal immigrants already in the UK!!!!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> You believe Boris?:Hilarious


Did I say I believed him in what I wrote?


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Did I say I believed him in what I wrote?


Yes.

I am very happy to do some fruit picking.This was my first ever employment ( illegal child labour)..but in those times no one cared and bunches of kids worked hard for sweeties...


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Arnie83 said:


> Except of course that the Leave vote pushed sterling 15% lower, so any increase in the dollar price of oil pushes our petrol price up by more than it otherwise would have done.


 The US isn't part of OPEC , though I expect they would put their prices up too. 
Rates change all the time so hopefully if things keep improving , it wont push it up too much.

http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/new...ound-euro-dollar-exchange-rate-forecasts.html


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Those jobs can be offered to those unemployed benefit seekers?
> 
> But the latest I farmers are demanding access to singel market. Oh..and free movement of workers.
> Why did they vote for Brexit? Remind me...


I think you will find that that is the NFU not the farmers..................Look at any farming site where the farmers themselves are putting an opinion and you will find that the vast majority are for a hard brexit. These headlines are more about big business which unfortunately the NFU has become 
http://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Re...utm_campaign=SocialMedia#.WEA3mhkhTnc.twitter


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

rona said:


> I think you will find that that is the NFU not the farmers..................Look at any farming site where the farmers themselves are putting an opinion and you will find that the vast majority are for a hard brexit. These headlines are more about big business which unfortunately the NFU has become
> http://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Re...utm_campaign=SocialMedia#.WEA3mhkhTnc.twitter


Those provide veg for Tesco shelves..
Of course..we can always import already picked and cleaned?
Lol.

Glad to know that when Gibraltar collapses I can go veg picking again...


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> The US isn't part of OPEC , though I expect they would put their prices up too.
> Rates change all the time so hopefully if things keep improving , it wont push it up too much.
> 
> http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/new...ound-euro-dollar-exchange-rate-forecasts.html


Very interesting how war in Syria gave Putin so much influence in Middle East.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Did I say I believed him in what I wrote?


Well we can always rely on you to staunchly defend the brexiteers lol. And incredible as it is to believe people will & do serve as apologists for morally bankrupt, serial liars like Johnson.

Anyway here's your proof he said it lol -











rona said:


> I think you will find that that is the NFU not the farmers..................Look at any farming site where the farmers themselves are putting an opinion and you will find that the vast majority are for a hard brexit. These headlines are more about big business which unfortunately the NFU has become
> http://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Re...utm_campaign=SocialMedia#.WEA3mhkhTnc.twitter


Farmers face ruin & they still want hard brexit?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/beating-brexit-bosses-fear-exodus-of-key-staff-f868dk5bf


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

So, desparation again to highlight good news based on a title.

1) We haven't left yet
2) We would be even better off within the EU.

"...Washington-based IMF said Britain would have a "soft landing" in 2016 with growth of 1.8%, it stuck to its view that the economy would eventually suffer from the shock EU referendum result..."
"...warned that the fall in sterling - which hit a 31 year low on Tuesday - would hit living standards..."
"...and said the fall in sterling would prompt inflation to rise from 0.7% this year to 2.5% in 2017..."

Now fine, life is going well at the moment. I think we have to thank May and the Bank of England for not causing an immediate collapse and attempting to cushion any impact. This despite protestations from many Brexiter's who wanted everything done immediately. Time will tell the result. Haven't seen anything yet but empty promises and wishful thinking from those who voted to leave.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

kimthecat said:


> The US isn't part of OPEC , though I expect they would put their prices up too.
> Rates change all the time so hopefully if things keep improving , it wont push it up too much.
> 
> http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/new...ound-euro-dollar-exchange-rate-forecasts.html


No it isn't, but oil is traded internationally and OPEC cutting supply will increase the price, and that is set in dollars ...

The pound is up to c. $1.26 at the moment, but it's still a way below the $1.48 it was in June.

On the plus side, since tax is such a big part of the price, a 15% drop in sterling doesn't equate to a 15% increase in petrol prices at the pumps. But there's still a Brexit (vote) effect.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Changes in pension laws only mean that taxman wants more of your pension ( you dodgy tax avoider you want your pension for yourself? How selfish! You saved part of your salary for top up of state one? Hahaha!!!How greedy! Off with your head!)
Nothing to do with 60bln hole created by Brexit...


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Changes in pension laws only mean that taxman wants more of your pension ( you dodgy tax avoider you want your pension for yourself? How selfish! You saved part of your salary for top up of state one? Hahaha!!!How greedy! Off with your head!)
> Nothing to do with 60bln hole *created by Brexit...*


There you go again blaming Brexit. We haven't left the EU yet. Brexit hasn't happened yet.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> There you go again blaming Brexit. We haven't left the EU yet. Brexit hasn't happened yet.


Now, come on - _that_ line of argument makes about as much sense as saying you can't blame Christmas for all the Santa's Grottos, decorated trees, Nativity Plays and adverts featuring festive themes, because Christmas hasn't happened yet...


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

It isn't an argument it's a fact. We haven't left the EU yet period. If we have you tell me when we left? It's quite a solid point.

*We have only had a vote to leave the EU*, we have not had any negotiations with the EU about leaving as they won't let us until article 50 is triggered. Plus the remainers (yes I am not name calling) keep trying to sabotage this from happening so the triggering of article 50 keeps getting delayed. TM wants to trigger it in March 2017 but it may take longer than this if the Supreme Court over rule the Government and back the remainers next week, this means the Government will ask for the European Courts of Justice to intervene which could delay things further by 4 to 8 months.

*Brexit legal challenge: European Court of Justice has 'ultimate authority' on Article 50, British member says.*

*https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-legal-challenge-supreme-court-high-court-european-court-of-justice-ultimate-authority-ruling-a7446716.html?amp?*

*http://news.sky.com/story/european-court-of-justice-has-ultimate-authority-on-article-50-10677193*

So laugh away if you wish remainers but the ultimate decision maybe left to the ECJ and the feelings the EU leaders have towards the UK at the moment it may well be that article 50 is triggered without a vote if the case goes to the ECJ.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> It isn't an argument it's a fact. We haven't left the EU yet period. If we have you tell me when we left? It's quite a solid point.


You are correct. We have not left the EU yet, or even started to.

It would, however, be false logic to imply that mean that just because Brexit has not happened, it's purported imminence hasn't had a significant effect on anything.

Much the same as, despite the fact Christmas hasn't happened yet, it would be foolish to deny there is now a socking great fir tree covered in baubles and lights in Reception at work.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> It isn't an argument it's a fact. We haven't left the EU yet period. If we have you tell me when we left? It's quite a solid point.
> 
> *We have only had a vote to leave the EU*, we have not had any negotiations with the EU about leaving as they won't let us until article 50 is triggered. Plus the remainers (yes I am not name calling) keep trying to sabotage this from happening so the triggering of article 50 keeps getting delayed. TM wants to trigger it in March 2017 but it may take longer than this if the Supreme Court over rule the Government and back the remainers next week, this means the Government will ask for the European Courts of Justice to intervene which could delay things further by 4 to 8 months.
> 
> ...


Funny how the EU is blamed for the lack of "action" by certain newspapers. The UK Government via a very poorly conceived referendum chose to leave, they're not being expelled from the EU. The way they're behaving, especially BJ I'm surprised they haven't been....


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> There you go again blaming Brexit. We haven't left the EU yet. Brexit hasn't happened yet.


But budget is planned now. Do you actually think Autumn Statement was not affected by Brexit?

Tell me that falling pound has nothing to do with Brexut, because it have not happened yet..
How the black hole of 60 bln happened?
Can I have some of what you are drinking?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> But budget is planned now. Do you actually think Autumn Statement was not affected by Brexit?
> 
> Tell me that falling pound has nothing to do with Brexut, because it have not happened yet..
> How the black hole of 60 bln happened?
> *Can I have some of what you are drinking?*


Ooh my tipple tonight is:








I have just opened my first can so wasn't on anything before hand  You're welcome to join me with a drink


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Ooh my tipple tonight is:
> View attachment 292035
> 
> I have just opened my first can so wasn't on anything before hand  You're welcome to join me with a drink


That is just fine for a chaser...
But as it is coming my way...I am not to say no...


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Yet more great brexit news. Hope nobody gets sick.
*
Nurses are leaving the NHS "because of brexit*". Just like with doctors & researchers. We were warned.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nurses-leaving-nhs-because-of-brexit-f0xkdgb7x
*
Industry warns of Brexit uncertainty for thousands of medicines*
http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-pharmaceuticals-idUKKBN13P1NJ

*Brexit threatens to bust our NHS. Here's a referenced summary of how Brexit threatens our NHS and healthcare*:

http://healthierin.eu/factsheet/


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

*Four reasons why banks won't leave the City of London after Brexit *

This is very good news, and makes much sense.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

samuelsmiles said:


> *Four reasons why banks won't leave the City of London after Brexit *
> 
> This is very good news, and makes much sense.











They just scale down UK.


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Blimey, that was a quick response with negativity, misery and despondency. Ok, you keep looking for and posting the bad news and I'll keep looking for the good news.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Guess it's a matter of personal opinion as to what one refers to what's good news or not. I'm sure some would welcome the demise of the NHS, after all you hear nothing but bad things about it in certain newspapers. The NHS will never be safe under the Tories with no help from Brexit that will only accelerate its eventual demise......


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Yet more great brexit news. Hope nobody gets sick.
> *
> Nurses are leaving the NHS "because of brexit*". Just like with doctors & researchers. We were warned.
> 
> ...


My guess would be that there are not enough nurses in the NHS because we don't pay them enough. Simples.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> Blimey, that was a quick response with negativity, misery and despondency. Ok, you keep looking for and posting the bad news and I'll keep looking for the good news.


Like me, I take it your glass in half full


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Satori said:


> My guess would be that there are not enough nurses in the NHS because we don't pay them enough. Simples.


Actually I think it's more like we haven't invested in training them, but apart from that the amount that agency nurses get paid I understand is considerably more then those we have trained.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

samuelsmiles said:


> *Four reasons why banks won't leave the City of London after Brexit *
> 
> This is very good news, and makes much sense.


There's a saying about when people have to say "i am not XXXX". Quite apt here.

We already have news that city is looking for backroom deals with the Government. Simple fact is, out of the EU they cannot do certain types of business. That means some assets will move to allow them to do so. This means job losses. Argument 1 falls apart if another center is chosen, Frankfurt in Germany for example already has a large financial sector. Cost, many companies already have investments in other countries and since Brexit many companies have invested more to provide additional options. Culture,go to many countries in the EU and speak English, you will get spoken back to in English. Especially in places with large foreign investments. That's not forgetting places like Dublin, also competing for potential business where the language is English. Personally I would find it harder to understand people and be understood in Glasgow than parts of Frankfurt.

Financial Sector will likely stay. They'll demand concessions from the Government who will not be able to refuse. This will restrict any governmental negotiating position dramatically.

Interesting to note how few actual firms in the financial industry are british. Most who were originally british are now no longer.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

samuelsmiles said:


> [URL='http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...t-leave-the-city-of-london-after-brexitQUOTE]


Is that actually news or typical pro Brexit propaganda one would expect to read in the Telegraph?


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

samuelsmiles said:


> Blimey, that was a quick response with negativity, misery and despondency. Ok, you keep looking for and posting the bad news and I'll keep looking for the good news.


That was Reuters. Not me. Write them a letter of complaint.

Try to keep it positive.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So, desparation again to highlight good news based on a title.
> 
> 1) We haven't left yet
> 2) We would be even better off within the EU.
> ...


Even if I had been told the lights would go out, water would freeze over and the world would stop spinning I would still have voted out! If they decided to run the referendum again I'd vote out again. To be told over and over again that we casted votes based on lies we were told is actually quiet insulting.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

DT said:


> Even if I had been told the lights would go out, water would freeze over and the world would stop spinning I would still have voted out! If they decided to run the referendum again I'd vote out again. To be told over and over again that we casted votes based on lies we were told is actually quiet insulting.


No one likes to feel stupid.
True.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DT said:


> Even if I had been told the lights would go out, water would freeze over and the world would stop spinning I would still have voted out! If they decided to run the referendum again I'd vote out again. To be told over and over again that we casted votes based on lies we were told is actually quiet insulting.





cheekyscrip said:


> No one likes to feel stupid.
> True.


Lucky I don't then! As for the remainers,..."....


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

DT said:


> Even if I had been told the lights would go out, water would freeze over and the world would stop spinning I would still have voted out! If they decided to run the referendum again I'd vote out again. To be told over and over again that we casted votes based on lies we were told is actually quiet insulting.


You missed the referendum threads I believe. Unfortunately those of us who voted to leave are viewed by a lot of the remain voters as brain washed sheep who were seduced by the red bus promising extra money for the NHS or by other false promises whereas the remain politicians were all entirely honest and trustworthy. Oh apart from the Tory ones who apparently were to be believed about the effects of Brexit but not about anything else. Welcome to the club. Baah Baah.


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

DT said:


> Actually I think it's more like we haven't invested in training them, but apart from that the amount that agency nurses get paid I understand is considerably more then those we have trained.


Isn't it a catch 22 though? We don't pay enough to attract sufficient people to the profession (or pursue pertinent education and training) on normal salaries so the shortage is made up with agency staff (who are sometimes underpaid nurses moonlighting), and the total cost of staff would be enough to recruit a full workforce if, so-called, management could just pay competitively in the first place. I have never seen anything like this in the private sector where a shortage of skilled staff doesn't lead to an increase in compensation. It's just bizarre. I'd scrap the whole system and zero-base it.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

DT said:


> Lucky I don't then! As for the remainers,..."....


I rather be stupid and Britain would be just as on the buses...than be right and it be poorer than before Brexit...
It is nicer to look silly and be rich than be right and poor...
I have been both and know the difference!


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Satori said:


> Isn't it a catch 22 though? We don't pay enough to attract sufficient people to the profession (or pursue pertinent education and training) on normal salaries so the shortage is made up with agency staff (who are sometimes underpaid nurses moonlighting), and the total cost of staff would be enough to recruit a full workforce if, so-called, management could just pay competitively in the first place. I have never seen anything like this in the private sector where a shortage of skilled staff doesn't lead to an increase in compensation. It's just bizarre. I'd scrap the whole system and zero-base it.


Who saves pays twice...


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Who saves pays twice...


A stitch in time saves nine.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

DT said:


> Even if I had been told the lights would go out, water would freeze over and the world would stop spinning I would still have voted out! If they decided to run the referendum again I'd vote out again. To be told over and over again that we casted votes based on lies we were told is actually quiet insulting.


You personally may not have cast your vote based on a lie, but _some _did. Some genuinely believed that we actually send the EU the amounts emblazoned on the side of a certain bus, even if they didn't believe that the _whole _amount would go to the NHS instead.

Both sides lied through their teeth throughout the whole campain, and though you may have done your research, many will just have gone with the headlines from the populist press (which, given that Mr Murdoch desires the UK to exit the EU as that way he has a far greater influence and control over UK politics, were mainly directed one way). So many people did cast votes for reasons that were at least partly based on lies, if not totally. Some of whom would have voted a different way had their understanding been different.

I'm also pretty sure that people who voted remain are also sick of being told over and over again that they should 'suck it up' and 'stop complaining' when they voice any genuine concerns they have. It's one thing for the leave camp to say we all need to pull together, but far too frequently this is said in ways that actually mean 'shut up, we won, you don't get a say any more, do as we tell you and stay silent' etc.

Of course, we do need to work together to make it work (and also to beat the Powers That Be who are using all the division to their advantage, but that's another matter). But that means some give and take on both sides, including both laying off the insults and accepting that the the other side has some valid viewpoints too...


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> My guess would be that there are not enough nurses in the NHS because we don't pay them enough. Simples.


Yes I'm sure that's one of the reasons the NHS was already experiencing a nursing shortage, but brexit has made it much worse. The NHS is under serious pressure as the government deliberately starves it of funds to privatise it - & now brexit is seriously affecting our NHS in many areas. And we haven't even left yet. It will only fall apart quicker - & that's exactly what experts said would happen.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jesthar said:


> You personally may not have cast your vote based on a lie, but _some _did. Some genuinely believed that we actually send the EU the amounts emblazoned on the side of a certain bus, even if they didn't believe that the _whole _amount would go to the NHS instead.
> 
> *Both sides lied through their teeth throughout the whole campain*, and though you may have done your research, many will just have gone with the headlines from the populist press (which, given that Mr Murdoch desires the UK to exit the EU as that way he has a far greater influence and control over UK politics, were mainly directed one way). So many people did cast votes for reasons that were at least partly based on lies, if not totally. Some of whom would have voted a different way had their understanding been different.
> 
> ...


One thing I disagree with in your post. The progressives in the remain side, didn't lie. They ran a separate campaign to the right wing parties, based on hope & facts not fearmongering & lies.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Leave or Remain, does anyone disagree with this?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

What is annoying me at the moment is those that voted leave during the Referendum are being silenced and aren't allowed to hold marches like the remainers did. The reason why this has happened is because the organisers of such marches have been told to cancel them because of fears of far right parties hijacking the marches. A gathering of over 1,000 leave supporters was meant to take place this coming week outside the supreme court but instead the remainers are allowed to gather as many as they want to back there cause and then laugh and mock the Leavers when a few hundred people are at the sidelines with leave flags and dog us saying that people must me getting cold feet. This isn't the case, we aren't allowed to have mass gatherings like you did because the far right might hijack our demonstrations and marches.

It is us the leave supporters that are being silenced not you the remainers.

I want it on record if there was another Referendum I would vote exactly the same way and that is to leave, I have no regrets voting this way. I was not influenced by any media rubbish or big red buses during the referendum campaign I voted in what I believed in for my reasons.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> What is annoying me at the moment is those that voted leave during the Referendum are being silenced and aren't allowed to hold marches like the remainers did. The reason why this has happened is because the organisers of such marches have been told to cancel them because of fears of far right parties hijacking the marches. A gathering of over 1,000 leave supporters was meant to take place this coming week outside the supreme court but instead the remainers are allowed to gather as many as they want to back there cause and then laugh and mock the Leavers when a few hundred people are at the sidelines with leave flags and dog us saying that people must me getting cold feet. This isn't the case, we aren't allowed to have mass gatherings like you did because the far right might hijack our demonstrations and marches.
> 
> It is us the leave supporters that are being silenced not you the remainers.
> 
> I want it on record if there was another Referendum I would vote exactly the same way and that is to leave, I have no regrets voting this way.


Well hardly remainers fault that far right groups are attracted to your demos lol


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Well hardly remainers fault that far right groups are attracted to your demos lol


You had your demos as remainers it should only be fair we are allowed ours. It's like we are being silenced.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> You had your demos as remainers it should only be fair we are allowed ours. It's like we are being silenced.


But we don't attract far right extremists

Its a case of this I'm afraid lol - Nigel Farage's march on the Supreme Court has been cancelled amid fears it could attract the sort of people who agree with Nigel Farage.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> You had your demos as remainers it should only be fair we are allowed ours. It's like we are being silenced.


Silenced? You got what you wanted. If you voted leave what the hell have you got to protest about?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

havoc said:


> Silenced? You got what you wanted. If you voted leave what the hell have you got to protest about?


Maybe they want to march in protest against the remainers being able to March against the result in the first place.
I'm all for marching me, our ladies hockey team lost 4 3 Saturday morning think I'll arrange a march against that result as we were favorites to win so summat must have gone wrong,  
Besides allowing marches gets all the great unwashed outta their beds onto the streets for some fresh air, can't be bad that, view it as a form of exercise


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

DT said:


> Besides allowing marches gets all the great unwashed outta their beds onto the streets for some fresh air, can't be bad that, view it as a form of exercise


Ah - I get it now. It's the great unwashed's equivalent of golf


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Maybe they want to march in protest against the remainers being able to March against the result in the first place.
> I'm all for marching me, our ladies hockey team lost 4 3 Saturday morning think I'll arrange a march against that result as we were favorites to win so summat must have gone wrong,
> Besides allowing marches gets all the great unwashed outta their beds onto the streets for some fresh air, can't be bad that, view it as a form of exercise


No we should be allowed a march/protest to show strength:
1) to those that think we are now going to lie down and allow the remainers to sabotage Brexit by putting everything they can in the way from the inevitable from happening, especially now that Liberal Democrats are now trying to sabotage Brexit all together by trying to deny the will of the peoples decision.
2) to make sure that TM and her Government are not going to back track on there word about triggering article 50.
3) to show that us leave voters are still here.

I am not saying speed up Brexit but I am saying at least give us some reassurance it is going to happen and the Government won't get cold feet in triggering article 50.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> One thing I disagree with in your post. The progressives in the remain side, didn't lie. They ran a separate campaign to the right wing parties, based on hope & facts not fearmongering & lies.


Much of the remain campaign however did focus on what would happen if the UK voted leave in a very negative fashion towards the EU. Basically people were told it was the lesser of two evils voting to remain. Jeremy Corbyn's campaign to remain could hardly be called enthusiastic either.

Not once did I hear about the benefits of being in the EU, freedom of movement to live and work and retire within the EU. The fact there's been no wars between other countries within the block for over 60 years and former dictatorships remaining democracies including former "Iron Curtain" countries and Spain. Just some examples.

Had this been done I certainly didn't see evidence of it.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> especially now that Liberal Democrats are now trying to sabotage Brexit all together by trying to deny the will of the peoples decision.


Not forgetting the will of the people in Scotland, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland who voted to remain!

It's a very disunited kingdom!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> Much of the remain campaign however did focus on what would happen if the UK voted leave in a very negative fashion towards the EU. Basically people were told it was the lesser of two evils voting to remain.
> 
> Not once did I hear about the benefits of being in the EU, freedom of movement to live and work and retire within the EU. The fact there's been no wars between other countries within the block for over 60 years and former dictatorships remaining democracies including former "Iron Curtain" countries and Spain. Just some examples.
> 
> Had this been done I certainly didn't see evidence of it.


I think the EU are more concerned with what is happening within the Schengen area countries as Austria has gone to the polls today (a far right party is one of the parties that could possibly win) and Italy are voting on there constitution trying to minimise one of the Governmental houses so they can put laws and decisions through quicker (if the opposition wins then there will be financial worries across the EU let alone Italy. Italy may end up in Greece's situation a few years back). Plus next year there are numerous country elections like in March 2017 Netherlands (Geert Wilders PVV Party is favourite to win as he has most support) vote on a new Prime Minister, in April/May 2017 France vote for a new President (Marine Le Penn is one of the favourites to win) and then in October 2017 Germany elect a new Chancellor. All these countries have far right groups that will possibly win as they have most support in these countries and this could cause the downfall of the EU or shrink the EU considerably. Why you ask? Well because these far right leaders want a Referendum to leave the EU, no one is saying they may win there Referendum but why do you think they have alot of support from there countries people? That's right. They have been offered a Referendum to leave the EU.

I did not say I support any right or far right groups or stand up for any of there causes I am just highlighting the reality of what might happen in the near future.

This is the stark reality of what is going on in the EU at the moment. The only reason why the UK stands out is because we are the first to act on what we said we was going to do and that was have a Referendum. Other countries around the EU have been wanting a Referendum to leave since 2002 and now look up to the UK because we had a Referendum to do such.

Peoples worries making them to vote leave in a Referendum on the EU in Europe are:
1) *Financial problems* in Europe from the European Bank.
2) *Migrant Crisis*.
3) *Security*, after numerous terrorist attacks in France and Belgium and incidents in Germany - it's obvious that people can walk into any country in Europe's Schengen area unchecked and do what they want and then disappear.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

KittenKong said:


> Not forgetting the will of the people in Scotland, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland who voted to remain!
> 
> *It's a very disunited kingdom*!


I think that was summed up very well by the Labour shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer on the Andrew Marr show this morning. He talked about how the Tories and UKIP are concentrating on/appealing to the 52% who voted leave and ignoring the other 48% whereas the Lib dems who recently won the by-election in Richmond Park concentrated on the 48% and ignored the 52%. He said someone has to figure out a way to work with both and bring us all back together again and that party are Labour although they lost their deposit achieving less than 2000 votes. Good luck with trying to unite the country if this forum is anything to go by


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> No we should be allowed a march/protest to show strength:
> 1) to those that think we are now going to lie down and allow the remainers to sabotage Brexit by putting everything they can in the way from the inevitable from happening, especially now that Liberal Democrats are now trying to sabotage Brexit all together by trying to deny the will of the peoples decision.
> 2) to make sure that TM and her Government are not going to back track on there word about triggering article 50.
> 3) to show that us leave voters are still here.
> ...


Dunno why you quoted me? We are both singing from the same sheet!
Translation: there should be no need for the leavers wanting to march !
As the remainers should not be allowed to march in the first place!
But if the remainers are allowed to march as they have been!
Then the leavers should be able to march against them marching in the first place!
There is only every going to be one winner here! Well maybe two,
The cobbler and the shoe shop


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think that was summed up very well by the Labour shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer on the Andrew Marr show this morning. He talked about how the Tories and UKIP are concentrating on/appealing to the 52% who voted leave and ignoring the other 48% whereas the Lib dems who recently won the by-election in Richmond Park concentrated on the 48% and ignored the 52%. He said someone has to figure out a way to work with both and bring us all back together again and that party are Labour although they lost their deposit achieving less than 2000 votes. Good luck with trying to unite the country if this forum is anything to go by


Well Diana abbots doing a damd good job of putting the final nail in the coffin of labour as we speak,


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Not forgetting the will of the people in Scotland, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland who voted to remain!
> 
> It's a very disunited kingdom!


Didn't manage a majority though did they?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Hey! Look on the bright side! 21 days from now the big man himself will have been and gone


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Hey! Look on the bright side! 21 days from now the big man himself will have been and gone


Yep and when he comes looking shifty like this:








He may well be gone.... With the contents of your house


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

stockwellcat said:


> No we should be allowed a march/protest to show strength:
> 1) to those that think we are now going to lie down and allow the remainers to sabotage Brexit by putting everything they can in the way from the inevitable from happening, especially now that Liberal Democrats are now trying to sabotage Brexit all together by trying to deny the will of the peoples decision.
> 2) to make sure that TM and her Government are not going to back track on there word about triggering article 50.
> 3) to show that us leave voters are still here.


Those are your reasons for wanting to demonstrate and fair enough, if that is what you believe in, but the reason you should be allowed to protest is because it your right to protest (or should be), exactly as it is with everyone else.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Much of the remain campaign however did focus on what would happen if the UK voted leave in a very negative fashion towards the EU. Basically people were told it was the lesser of two evils voting to remain. Jeremy Corbyn's campaign to remain could hardly be called enthusiastic either.
> 
> Not once did I hear about the benefits of being in the EU, freedom of movement to live and work and retire within the EU. The fact there's been no wars between other countries within the block for over 60 years and former dictatorships remaining democracies including former "Iron Curtain" countries and Spain. Just some examples.
> 
> Had this been done I certainly didn't see evidence of it.


But is that the fault of the msm? UK media bias meant progressive arguments to stay in the EU were pretty much absent from the debate. Take a look at this analysis of the debate @KittenKong.

_http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ring-eu-referendum-campaign-not-way-you-think
The main evening bulletins on Channel 5 (5pm), Channel 4 (7pm), the BBC, ITV, and Sky News (10pm) were analysed. The findings showed that, while Remain and Brexit voices were balanced, a huge __71.2%__ of political sources were from the Conservative Party, compared to just 18.4% from Labour

_


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> the Tories and UKIP are concentrating on/appealing to the 52% who voted leave


It was around 37% of those entitled to vote who voted to leave - not 52%.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> It was around 37% of those entitled to vote who voted to leave - not 52%.


Best tell that to the Labour shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer then as it was him I was quoting


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm pretty sure he's aware just as other politicians with careers to consider are aware of those who didn't vote and how they may vote in an election.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> But is that the fault of the msm? UK media bias meant progressive arguments to stay in the EU were pretty much absent from the debate. Take a look at this analysis of the debate @KittenKong.
> 
> _http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...ring-eu-referendum-campaign-not-way-you-think
> The main evening bulletins on Channel 5 (5pm), Channel 4 (7pm), the BBC, ITV, and Sky News (10pm) were analysed. The findings showed that, while Remain and Brexit voices were balanced, a huge __71.2%__ of political sources were from the Conservative Party, compared to just 18.4% from Labour
> ...


You're absolutely right. I was referring mainly to what the general public saw during the referendum campaign. The vast majority get their news from the BBC or ITN, not forgetting MSN and the press.

The Remain campaign as seen by the majority was a negative, "lesser of two evils" attitude.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

havoc said:


> I'm pretty sure he's aware just as other politicians with careers to consider are aware of those who didn't vote and how they may vote in an election.


Surely you are not suggesting that the former DPP and international human rights lawyer is being less than honest?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

DT said:


> Hey! Look on the bright side! 21 days from now the big man himself will have been and gone


You kidding me right? Far right?
Illegal immigrants crossing illegally at night smuggling in about one million untaxed foreign smart phones? Plus pile of other foreign goods?

It is time this job went into British hands . Santa Nigel?

With British made in Britain from British ingredients goods ( woolly mittens and socks everyone?).

Anyhow isn't Christmas all about some Jewish baby in small village somewhere in Middle East and not our business altogether ...

Time to come back to our Druids and mistletoe.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> You kidding me right? Far right?
> Illegal immigrants crossing illegally at night smuggling in about one million untaxed foreign smart phones? Plus pile of other foreign goods?


Well done for paying attention. Your learning 

Just so you have something to read whilst your drinking your wine under the mistletoe (the polls have just closed in Austria and Europe may have its first Far Right leader (Norbert Hofer) since the second world war.

Watch this space for an update when the results are announced): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...orbert-hofer-cusp-becoming-europes-first-far/

Update 16:33:
Norbert Hofer has conceded to Independent Candidate Alexander Van der Bellen his opposition, this is the news that has just come in from Austria so the Far Right has conceded. I hear a loud gasp of breath in Europe tonight.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Surely you are not suggesting that the former DPP and international human rights lawyer is being less than honest?


The figures aren't disputed by anyone. Not everyone entitled to vote votes in any election. 52% of the votes cast in the referendum were for leaving but that doesn't necessarily mean 52% of the population want to leave. Of the total possible votes 37% voted leave. We have no idea how those who didn't vote would have voted but they will have a view by the time of the next election and may well be spurred into voting then.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> *We have no idea how those who didn't vote would have voted but they will have a view by the time of the next election and may well be spurred into voting then*.


Those that didn't vote chose to not have a say or where not eligible for whatever reason. You missed out the idiots that chose to put an x in both boxes on the ballot sheet and voted leave as a joke (they then said they wanted to change there minds the day after the referendum) because they thought leave wouldn't win, that is tough luck on there behalf as the ballot sheet was very clear and said to only put an x in one box at the referendum. I'll quite happily put the stats up from the electoral commission if you want me to. People should have took the Referendum in the UK seriously, I did. Now the UKs fate is in the deal we get with the EU when we leave the EU.

Leave won so it's now time to work together to get the best deal as possible instead of remainers being sore losers about it. We are leaving and that is that.

The results speak for themselves check for yourself: http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

This link shows the amount of rejected votes if you scroll down the page http://www.electoralcommission.org....eferendum/eu-referendum-result-visualisations


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Update 16:33:
> Norbert Hofer has conceded to Independent Candidate Alexander Van der Bellen his opposition, this is the news that has just come in from Austria so the Far Right has conceded. I hear a loud gasp of breath in Europe tonight.


That is very good news!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> That is very good news!


I agree.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Those that didn't vote chose to not have a say or where not eligible for whatever reason. You missed out the idiots that chose to put an x in both boxes on the ballot sheet and voted leave as a joke (they then said they wanted to change there minds the day after the referendum) because they thought leave wouldn't win, that is tough luck on there behalf as the ballot sheet was very clear and said to only put an x in one box at the referendum. I'll quite happily put the stats up from the electoral commission if you want me to. People should have took the Referendum in the UK seriously, I did. Now the UKs fate is in the deal we get with the EU when we leave the EU.
> 
> Leave won so it's now time to work together to get the best deal as possible instead of remainers being sore losers about it. We are leaving and that is that.
> 
> The results speak for themselves check for yourself: http://www.electoralcommission.org....u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information


But....BJ wants freedom of movement..Davies wants single market..

Farmers want veg pickers and NHS needs nurses. .
Plus all want the bearded fat guy from Finland...
And it is not @Zaros this time...


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Leave won


They absolutely did on that day in that referendum. Nobody is questioning that 52% of those who voted wanted to leave. The figures are roughly the same as often elect a government - the winning side rarely actually have a true majority of the available electorate. Nobody then suggests that those elected MPs who do get in but on the losing side should 'pull together' and back all the policies of the winning side without question.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

KittenKong said:


> That is very good news!


It's not quite over in Europe tonight, we still have the results to come from Italy's Referendum regarding there constitution. If they vote no it could plunge Italy into political turmoil which will then affect the rest of Europe. They will be in the position Greece was a few years back.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> No we should be allowed a march/protest to show strength:
> 1) to those that think we are now going to lie down and allow the remainers to sabotage Brexit by putting everything they can in the way from the inevitable from happening, *especially now that Liberal Democrats are now trying to sabotage Brexit all together by trying to deny the will of the peoples decision.*
> 2) to make sure that TM and her Government are not going to back track on there word about triggering article 50.
> 3) to show that us leave voters are still here.
> ...


In what way are they doing this?

The official position is that A50 should be triggered, but that there should be a referendum on the eventual terms to Leave the EU, which is eminently sensible, so that the people who voted for us to leave can confirm that what the government have negotiated is what they want. The will of the people must surely be so respected.

And one new MP recently won an election where she ran on a pledge to vote against A50. The will of the people was evidently that she should do exactly that.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Meanwhile I am lost where to stick that: The Banana Thread or Brexit MP died funny thread?
Or here?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> In what way are they doing this?
> 
> The official position is that A50 should be triggered, but that there should be a referendum on the eventual terms to Leave the EU, which is eminently sensible, so that the people who voted for us to leave can confirm that what the government have negotiated is what they want. The will of the people must surely be so respected.
> 
> And one new MP recently won an election where she ran on a pledge to vote against A50. The will of the people was evidently that she should do exactly that.


One Referendum was enough thanks.

Don't want another one.

We won't get a say on the final terms of Brexit, that is down to the EU if you actually read Article 50. The UK won't get a say as it will be done behind closed doors in Brussels and representatives of the UK won't be there.



> 4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing *the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.*


http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> One Referendum was enough thanks.
> 
> Don't want another one.


Why not? Are you worried that people may vote the way you don't want once they have the full facts in front of them? I have no idea if they would or wouldn't but surely they're entitled to have a say once the terms are thrashed out and people know how it will affect them.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> Why not? Are you worried that people may vote the way you don't want once they have the full facts in front of them? I have no idea if they would or wouldn't but surely they're entitled to have a say once the terms are thrashed out and people know how it will affect them.


Not really no. A survey was done recently in a newspaper on those that voted leave in the Referendum and 90 odd percent said they would vote exactly the same way that being leave.

But the remainers would still moan even if they lost a second Referendum which isn't going to happen anytime soon.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> Not really no. A survey was done recently on those that voted leave in the Referendum and 90 odd percent said they would vote exactly the same way that being leave.


So why not test that - plus all those who spoiled papers, those who didn't vote at all and those who voted remain but may change their minds once the detail is in place? Why fear the result if the detail is going to be as wonderful for us all as was suggested?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> So why not test that - plus all those who spoiled papers, those who didn't vote at all and those who voted remain but may change their minds once the detail is in place? Why fear the result if the detail is going to be as wonderful for us all as was suggested?


Because it's classed as vote rigging and the EU have accepted we are leaving and are awaiting us to trigger article 50. They warned us that this was to be accepted whatever the outcome. You can't keep having Referendums because you don't like the original vote results.

I am not fearing anything as the results would virtually be the same.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> You can't keep having Referendums because you don't like the original vote results.


Why do we keep having general elections then? Why do we allow democratic process to disrupt the running of the country?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

havoc said:


> Why do we keep having general elections then? Why do we allow democratic process to disrupt the running of the country?


You was warned by DC that this was a once in a life time referendum and there would be no second Referendums TM has said the same thing and the EU have said that whatever the outcome it would be accepted. Which part of that don't you understand?

Referendums are different than general elections. I am sorry you are feeling annoyed your country folk voted to leave by a slim majority. But no boundaries where put on the referendum eg there wouldn't be any super majority etc.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

You forget - like you my family remain EU citizens  We have choice and I don't see a problem with ensuring that choice for everyone. I have no great issue one way or another which way a vote based on the facts and the details would go. I simply believe in democracy and open government.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> You was warned by DC that this was a once in a life time referendum and there would be no second Referendums TM has said the same thing and the EU have said that whatever the outcome it would be accepted. Which part of that don't you understand?.


Perhaps, as it not surprisingly turned out they had no idea in how to exercise Brexit if the leave vote won. I find that incredible if they were complacent and thought remain would win anyway. I knew from the moment the referendum was announced leave would win, I actually thought the majority would be larger than it was in view of the constant negative comments about the EU in the media.

I'm certainly not suggesting another referendum on similar terms. It's too late to reverse the damaged relationship between the EU and the UK. The UK itself is split on the issue too of course.

I think damage limitation is needed now, not that can be expected from Johnson and co.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> But....BJ wants freedom of movement..Davies wants single market..
> Farmers want veg pickers and NHS needs nurses. .
> *Plus all want the bearded fat guy from Finland...
> And it is not @Zaros this time..*.


Of course it's not me.:Wideyed

How could it be?

I mean, I'm not fat, I don't have a beard and I'm certainly not very jolly.

I don't like the colour Red, hate the smell of Advocaat, its texture is like having a gobful of someone else's snot, and think that Snowballs are just for old folk who can't hold their alcohol or bladders during the old Queen's boring Christmas day speech to a terminally divided nation.
I dislike Elves, fake plastic Christmas trees, cheap baubles, twinkling fairy lights, snow in an aerosol can and detest the smell of Reindeer. 
Particularly those specimens suffering from acrophobia which, incidentally, have an unfortunate habit of sh1tting on your head as they fly over your house. Thank phuq Christmas is only one day in the year.
.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Of course it's not me.:Wideyed
> 
> How could it be?
> 
> ...


Christmas..bah humbug!

Bet MrsZee is a fan though...


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Christmas..bah humbug!
> 
> Bet MrsZee is a fan though...


..


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> Bet MrsZee is a fan though...


Whatever gave you that impression.

She is neither paper nor electric.:Watching


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> Not really no. A survey was done recently in a newspaper on those that voted leave in the Referendum and 90 odd percent said they would vote exactly the same way that being leave.


So with 10% voters changing their vote, as well as those who didn't vote, especially those now eligible who were not previously, what would the result be? I don't remember the margin being over 10%. Hardly a convincing argument you have there is it.



stockwellcat said:


> You was warned by DC that this was a once in a life time referendum and there would be no second Referendums


Shame Farage didn't agree. In fact parliament didn't either. Since when does the PM do things without being backed up by parliament? Once again, BJ promised 350million would go to the NHS. Is that reality?



> Referendums are different than general elections.


You are right, glad you acknowlege the fact, they are an opinion poll to influence, not dictate policy.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Oh dear.
That isn't a good end to today.

*Italian PM Renzi suffers heavy defeat in key referendum - projection.*

Italian PM Matteo Renzi has suffered a heavy defeat in a key referendum on constitutional reform, according to a projection.

The projection by the Piepoli Institute/IPR for state broadcaster RAI estimated 57-61% will vote "No", compared to 39-43% for "Yes".

The projection points to an even wider margin of defeat for Mr Renzi than was suggested by three exit polls released immediately after polls closed.

Mr Renzi had staked his future on a "Yes" vote, vowing to resign if voters rejected his plans to reduce the role of the country's Senate and take back powers from regional authorities.










He is due to address the nation at around midnight local time (11pm UK time).

Opposition parties were quick to call for Mr Renzi to go.



> If Mr Renzi resigns, it could plunge Italy into political turmoil and cause economic instability in the struggling eurozone country.
> 
> The result, if confirmed, would also be another blow to the European Union, which is struggling to overcome a number of crises and was keen for Mr Renzi to continue his reform drive.
> 
> Turbulence on the markets also looks inevitable.


http://news.sky.com/story/italian-p...-defeat-in-key-referendum-projection-10683879

Like Cameron PM Matteo Renzi was a gambler and of course thought he couldn't lose and did. A snap election may well be on the horizon in Italy as Mr Matteo Renzi staked his job as PM on this Referendum.

He is about to address Italy in 5 minutes time 11pm UK time.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

havoc said:


> You forget - like you my family remain EU citizens  We have choice and I don't see a problem with ensuring that choice for everyone. I have no great issue one way or another which way a vote based on the facts and the details would go. I simply believe in democracy and open government.


Don't recall us having the true facts the last time we voted either as it happens. Hopefully someone can remind me what we were asked to vote for then as I was not really interested at that time, think I was in my early twenties then, but let me try and recall

Seem To think we were asked to vote whether we wanted to remain in the eu or leave the eu
But hang on when did we join the eu. Thought it was the common that we joined.
Perhaps someone can be more precise on this one.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Don't recall us having the true facts the last time we voted either as it happens. Hopefully someone can remind me what we were asked to vote for then as I was not really interested at that time, think I was in my early twenties then, but let me try and recall
> 
> Seem To think we were asked to vote whether we wanted to remain in the eu or leave the eu
> But hang on when did we join the eu. Thought it was the common that we joined.
> Perhaps someone can be more precise on this one.


It was the common market we joined I seemed to have missed the referendum for us to join the EU. 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-3658942/Britain-joins-EU-1973.html

But the UK voted to join the EEC or common market in 1973. I can't find an article as to when we signed up to the EU.

This paper has a timeline on it but I still can't see when the UK signed up to the EU. Was it a back door job?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...britains-eu-membership-in-guardian-reporting?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat said:


> It was the common market we joined I seemed to have missed the referendum for us to join the EU. Oh here it is:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-3658942/Britain-joins-EU-1973.html
> 
> But the UK voted to join the EEA or common market in 1973. I can't find an article as to when we signed up to the EU.


I remember when in my early teens we joined the common market, we had butter and cheese mountains. Can't really remember beyond that.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Ah I found this:

When did we join the EU?

No referendum was held when Britain agreed to an accession treaty on 22 January 1972 together with the EEC states, Denmark, and Ireland, or when the European Communities Act 1972 went through the legislative process. Britain joined the European Economic Community on *1 January 1973*, along with Denmark and Ireland.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

This might cause a problem for the Government at the supreme court hearing It's called the 30 Year Rule

The question of sovereignty was discussed in an internal document of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO 30/1048) before the European Communities Act 1972, but was not available to the public until January 2002 under the Thirty-year rule. Among "Areas of policy" listed "in which parliamentary freedom to legislate will be affected by entry into the European Communities" were: Customs duties, Agriculture, Free movement of labour, services and capital, Transport, and Social Security for migrant workers. The document concluded (paragraph 26) that it was advisable to put the considerations of influence and power before those of formal sovereignty.[20]

Attached is the Governments response to the 30 year rule dated February 2010. I am unsure if there has been any amendments.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stockwellcat said:


> Ah I found this:
> 
> When did we join the EU?
> 
> No referendum was held when Britain agreed to an accession treaty on 22 January 1972 together with the EEC states, Denmark, and Ireland, or when the European Communities Act 1972 went through the legislative process. Britain joined the European Economic Community on *1 January 1973*, along with Denmark and Ireland.


Think it was on the cards much longer than that though I'm not sure if it was the Tory government of the late '50s who started the ball rolling? The French president Charles De Gaulle vetoed the UK joining the Common Market in the '60s.

I stand open to correction if any of this is wrong.

In 1967 Adge Cutler and The Wulzels wrote and performed the song, "When the Common Market Comes to Stanton Dew" so the UK were going to join sooner or later.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat said:


> One Referendum was enough thanks.
> 
> Don't want another one.
> 
> ...


Even if things really go **** up you still wouldn't want another referendum? Surely you wouldn't cut your nose off to spite your face, would you


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

The UK won't get a say in the final deal so how can we have a neverrendum on it. Read Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if you don't believe me:
 
*Article 50*

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the *withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
*
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat said:


> The UK won't get a say in the final deal so how can we have a neverrendum on it. Read Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty if you don't believe me:
> 
> *Article 50*
> 
> ...


Sorry, but you're reading this wrong.

The European Council and the Council have talks among themselves in order to determine the EU's approach to the negotiations with the withdrawing member. The UK won't have a seat in those discussions. The negotiations that follow, between the EU and the UK, are then undertaken over a two year period. The EU cannot impose anything in those negotiations.

The referendum that the LibDems are calling for is on the outcome of those negotiations, so that the British voters can approve or reject the deal. There is no call to rerun the In / Out vote.

It's the sort of Out that's important.

We could Leave the EU, retain free movement, stay members of the single market and the customs union, pay for the privilege, not get a refund and lose EU funding, have to abide by the rules made in Brussels and recognise the supremacy of the ECJ. We wouldn't have any MEPs or any say in any of the market rules, but we would have Left the EU and thereby satisfied the demands of the binary referendum. So would that suit you,or would you like a chance to vote on it?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Are we doing just fine?
This is not Daily Fail.
I















And I much rather it was not going this way because I am being dragged along.

I do not want to insult anyone but damaging economy of own country under false pretenses of " freeing it" and " Making it great again" by taking it out of the biggest trading bloc ..
That cannot be called wise.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I ask you to read this:


Pound to Euro exchange rate latest quote (7-12-16): 1.1777
Pound to Dollar exchange rate: 1.2630
Pound to Australian Dollar exchange rate: 1.6970
*GBP is under pressure in mid-week trade amidst a sharp rally in global stock markets helps push UK bonds higher. *
Pound Sterling is the worst-performing currency in the G10 complex in mid-week trade while the US Dollar is the best performer.

*A mere 24 hours earlier and it was Sterling that was the best performer

The catalyst for the turnaround appears to be the strong performance in European and global stock markets at present which have reacted to news that a potential rescue package for the Italian banking sector is on the cards.*

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/5862-gbp-to-eur-and-usd-davis-hammond/

Currencies go up and down every day of the week. Just 24 hours ago the £ pound was the best performer. There is a reason behind the fluctuations see above. So I can't really see your point as it has nothing to do with the Brexit vote but more to do with Italy? The UK won't be involved in any rescue package/bailout for Italy's banks that's why the pound slumped and tomorrow to pound could be the top performer again.

I am very happy for voting the way I did yes and I feel I was being very wise in doing so.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Very wise indeed.
So was Liam Fox.
Very interesting read. Pity cannot post links...but easy to find I am sure...


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Sorry


cheekyscrip said:


> Very wise indeed.
> So was Liam Fox.
> Very interesting read. Pity cannot post links...but easy to find I am sure...
> View attachment 292783


The Markets look good at 16:50 (GMT)








This is what I am interested in.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Pity you not interested what will happen to British steel industry, fishing industry, financial services and so on...







fragments of the same..

Possibilities of trade disputes are endless...

Meanwhile future not only for Gibraltar but also for Channel Islands regarding financial services looks gloom.

Lots of jobs would go to Malta.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Pity you not interested what will happen to British steel industry, fishing industry, financial services and so on...
> View attachment 292807
> fragments of the same..
> 
> ...


Here's the latest news on Port Talbot

*Tata unveils plans to secure the future for thousands of steel jobs*

News just broke within the last 30 minutes.

http://news.sky.com/story/tata-unve...e-future-for-thousands-of-steel-jobs-10686793


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Really? I was listening to this being discussed on the radio early this morning. The reason it may be a viable prospect is the weak pound isn't it?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

havoc said:


> Really? I was listening to this being discussed on the radio early this morning. The reason it may be a viable prospect is the weak pound isn't it?


I got the impression from a Tata guy on the news that it was because of some agreement between unions and management but it still has to be put to the workers


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> Very wise indeed.
> So was Liam Fox.
> Very interesting read. Pity cannot post links...but easy to find I am sure...
> View attachment 292783


(The link is here Cheeky - https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ns-brexit-trickier-than-we-thought?CMP=twt_gu )

Worrying


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Eczema sufferers should worry*
If you want to sell pharmaceuticals in Europe, they have to have been cleared by European regulators. While we're in the EU, that's the case for the UK too. But what happens after we leave? Will a British regulator take up the slack? A fast, hard Brexit of the type being demanded by some Tory MPs would leave a window between leaving the EU and setting up our own regulators. During that period, drug firms wouldn't be able to get their products authorised for the UK market, so, for a while, there would be no new eczema creams, asthma inhalers or any other new treatments available to British patients.

*The government is pretending bad news doesn't exist*
Directors of trade bodies - many of them facing economic and regulatory disaster - went in to brief David Davis when he was made Brexit secretary. But before they got to his office they were taken to one side by civil servants and advised to go in saying Brexit was full of "opportunities". Anyone who didn't tended to be asked to leave after five minutes.

*Liam Fox would break the law if he did his job*
After he took the role of international trade secretary, Fox boasted that he would have "about a dozen free trade deals outside the EU" ready for when Britain left. But it is illegal for Britain, as an EU member state, to negotiate bilateral trade deals. Fox later quietly backtracked on his promise. No one knows what he's doing with his time at the moment.

*Theresa May's promises on food labelling are straight outta Pyongyang *
In a speech at the Conservative party conference, May promised that Britain would now control how it labels food. But these rules have nothing to do with the EU. They come from a general code at the World Trade Organisation (WTO). For May to deliver on this promise, she would have to adopt the North Korean model of total isolation. She either didn't know what she was saying was nonsense, or didn't care.

*What's good for the burger lover isn't good for the beef farmer …*
A bilateral trade deal with the US would see cheaper burgers in the UK. The Americans have lower animal-welfare standards, use growth hormones in their meat and have larger farms. This won't be good news for British farmers, who will also be facing sky-high export tariffs and a possible end to subsidies. And it won't be good news for animal rights campaigners. But burger lovers might be pleased.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rona said:


> I got the impression from a Tata guy on the news that it was because of some agreement between unions and management but it still has to be put to the workers


Guy on radio 4 yesterday morning was pointing out that the reason it's worthwhile again to Tata is because the steel will now be cheap to foreign buyers because of the weak pound. He did say they'll have to pay more for imported stuff but seemed to think this would be more than offset. I do remember all the talk about cheap foreign steel being the problem in the first place so British steel now being competitive because of a weak pound does have a certain logic. Does rather imply that those in the know don't expect a strong pound anytime soon.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Is t there a problem with tTa regarding pensions?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

DT said:


> Is t there a problem with tTa regarding pensions?


Think that could be the negotiations with unions and workforce.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

havoc said:


> Think that could be the negotiations with unions and workforce.


Oh yes. That's right, they are having discussions,
Please forgive me, have a early morning and my old brain is tired,
But now, can someone pleAse remind me why the government was unable to help keep the steelworks, didn't that have something to do with the EU? Or German sweet? Dunno but somethings ringing bells


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

DT said:


> Oh yes. That's right, they are having discussions,
> Please forgive me, have a early morning and my old brain is tired,
> But now, can someone pleAse remind me why the government was unable to help keep the steelworks, didn't that have something to do with the EU? Or German sweet? Dunno but somethings ringing bells


China?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)




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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> China?


Was it cheap Chinese steel everyone was buying because British steel was too expensive? Think you could be right.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> Was it cheap Chinese steel everyone was buying because British steel was too expensive? Think you could be right.


From the same paper Noushka and I quoted earlier:









So the best safeguard for British steel was to stay in EU?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> China?


It will be cheaper to get steal from Tata instead of China. We won't have to import it 

UK steal not Chinese thank you.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Funnily enough a Brexit supporting local was interviewed on our local news programme with the belief old industries like coalmining will return once Brexit happens!

Think he's going to be disappointed!


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## SpringDance (Mar 18, 2016)

stockwellcat said:


> It will be cheaper to get steal from Tata instead of China. We won't have to import it
> 
> UK steal not Chinese thank you.


The British steel is much higher quality... which means more expensive, even without importing, it's more expensive


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Tata is Indian,. Think we should have all the Enfield bullet back here myself, it's my favorite bike


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

SpringDance said:


> The British steel is much higher quality... which means more expensive, even without importing, it's more expensive


And labour is a bit more expensive too..


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Tata is Indian,. Think we should have all the Enfield bullet back here myself, it's my favorite bike


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> And labour is a bit more expensive too..


How dear you suggest Jeremy corbyn is expensive! But guess you are probably right ,


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> So the best safeguard for British steel was to stay in EU?


Other EU countries also have a steel industry and not necessarily owned by foreign companies. It is in their interest to preserve their home industry as much as possible. Working together means having a better negotiating position. Common sense really. More clout if you have more potential customers, you can dictate terms rather than having India for example say, you can have a trade deal if you open up immigration.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Other EU countries also have a steel industry and not necessarily owned by foreign companies. It is in their interest to preserve their home industry as much as possible. Working together means having a better negotiating position. Common sense really. More clout if you have more potential customers, you can dictate terms rather than having India for example say, you can have a trade deal if you open up immigration.


Exactly. Meant that.lol.
EU protects EU steel. So ours too.
But not for long.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Unfortunately, because its firewalled, I'm unable to read all this article in the Times by Matthew Parris. Apparently it is really good for anyone who can. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/you-turn-if-you-want-to-im-still-a-remainer-0wndnj35v

This has been copied out of the comments section.


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