# Complicated integration with human!



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Folks have probably noticed already I'm a bit prone to waffling, but this is a complicated problem so please bear with me. The answer may not be so obvious when you get to grips with Molly!

Background:
Bobby, 9 year old retired stud Ragdoll, came to me in February last year. I did everything right and he bonded with me very quickly, even using me as a safe base for exploring and although I have a job to keep him off my lap for 5 minutes he doesn't go to anyone, not even my mum when she regularly looks after him if I am away for a couple of days. Within a few weeks I realised he missed and needed feline company, so after one failure with my neighbour's cat Tabby, the delightful 6 year old Molly came to live with us at the end of May. 

Molly is extremely people-timid due a bad kittenhood up to 9 months old when the girl I got her from rescued her. She has always been too scared to go outside so is an indoor cat by choice. I was told she will hide when visitors come and emerge when she is ready, and once she knows them she will come out, but she will never stop hiding when the doorbell goes. This much I believe!

The day Molly came she was 2 hours late arriving because of a battle over going in the carrier. When she arrived we let her out in the bedroom where I had food, water and litter ready. She shot under the bed so fast I didn't even see what colour she was. Due to her fear of the carrier I removed it but put her blanket under the bed for comforting familiar scent. The carrier went into the living room for Bobby to get familiar with her scent and he immediately settled in it. 

Here's the first bit I know is going to be controversial - I did not close the bedroom door, so I better explain why. Bobby cannot fit under the bed, so he could not intrude on her safe place. Both Molly and Bobby are social cats who want to make friends with any other cat they meet. And I was there to monitor Bobby to make sure he didn't hassle Molly, which he didn't, at all. If there had been any sign of stress on either side I would have closed the door immediately. 

For 5 days Molly stayed there, she came out to use the litter at night when I was asleep and I put her food under the bed with her, because of her extreme shyness, and she ate normally. 

One setback was my boyfriend who has since been sacked (partly because of this) who despite my instructions kept going to "see if she was all right" over the first 2 days, I was glad when he went home!

On day 6 I had to go out for the day. I carefully judged the situation and Bobby's ability to woo just about any cat (there was one queen who only ever let him mate her, no other cat) and decided to leave the door open. When I came back it was clear Molly had been out exploring and the pair had become friends with me out of the way. She then gradually began to come out to explore, usually with Bobby making encouraging noises and staying near her, then going to sit near the bed whenever she went back under it. I consulted the breeder who had him and knew him well, and this is exactly what we expected from him. Bobby brought her out, the opposite of the text book way it should happen, but in Molly's specific case that's what it had to be.

It's been nearly 8 months now and in December I got my first slow-blink. That's how slow it is with her. Again, the correct way doesn't work for her, letting her approach me and me responding is not going to work - it's a two-way conversation that goes like this:

Me: I have to walk past you now so I'm going to say a few words so I don't make you jump
Molly: Oh hello what's this, what are you doing?
Me: It's ok I am friendly I'm not staring at you 
Molly: Ok I can relax a little
Me: Sniff my hand if you like (she is such a sniffer!)
Molly: Yes that's ok I'm happy with that
Me: May I stroke you just a little?
Molly: Not sure ... 
Me: That's all right I'll walk away
Then I come back from wherever I went
Me: Is it ok now?
Molly: Yes I think so

Now this is where it gets delicate. If Molly jumps down to the floor, tail up and waving, this is an invitation to carry on the conversation, but it won't look like it until you know her quite well. I get down onto the floor. She walks past me one way then the other, I give her one slow stroke as she goes past, she turns, hesitates, comes back, walks away ... then she drops her front end down, bum in the air towards me, and I have to put one arm down one side of her to scratch her neck, chin, cheek, ear etc. 

At this point Molly is in raptures. She definitely loves the contact, but as you see from the build-up conversation she is afraid of it. Several times she will repeat the get up walk away and come back, but every time she does settle for a few minutes, she is very enthusiastic. 

She does sometimes initiate the conversation by sitting in the middle of the floor staring at me and squeaking, but when she initiates it the conversation takes much longer, but the result is always the same - lots of purring and love but the fear is still there. Sometimes I distract her with play if she is really struggling so that I am interacting with her but there is less pressure for her. 

Molly is a very intelligent girl and needs extremely gentle handling. Example - she scratched on the sofa, I said gently No Molly we don't do that here and stroked her paw and she stopped. A few days later she did it again and I did exactly the same. She has never done it again. Another example - I have never told her to get off the table when there is food on it, just a week of rewarding her when she is on the floor or on her cat tree but not when she's on the table, and she understands. They are allowed on the table as long as there is no food on it.

She is only afraid of people, nothing else. She bolts if I walk in wearing my shoes or carrying anything. She has now stopped bolting if I only have a small thing in my hand and can sometimes stay put if I take the bin out as long as I don't look at her, hold the bag away from her and talk softly to her. 

Hopefully that sets the scene for just how capable she is and how utterly traumatised, as she was very well treated for the last 5 years and all this has stayed with her from the first 9 months of her life. 

The pair of them are very good friends, he has tried to lick her head but she slapped him so they won't curl up together but there has never been a spit, growl or hiss from either of them. She sometimes pounces on him which he didn't like at first but now she has calmed it down and he has come to accept it and I'm happy that it's rough play. Of course it does also serve to keep the pecking orders clear between them but each is top cat in different situations, there is no bullying or fighting it's all perfectly normal.

So other than hoping she will eventually relax more, I best get to the actual issue!

Because building a relationship with Molly is so slow and takes so much work and patience from me, Bobby can get a little possessive. He will walk between us or make his presence felt by being near me, and then she withdraws - hence she won't sleep on the bed for example. In fairness, so can Molly (strangely enough) in that either one can grouch if they feel the other has too much of my attention, but as stated this is not aggressive, just a momentary irritation. 

Thankfully Bobby sleeps more so I can sit with Molly for half an hour while he sleeps, which I have started doing even if she isn't bothered about me, so that I am not always pawing at her whenever I am near her, hopefully this will build trust too.

So bearing in mind how deli-cat this all is, three questions - 

1. Is there any more I can do to help Molly gain confidence in herself?

2. Is there any more I can do to build my relationship with Molly?

and
3. Is there anything I can do better to eliminate any possible jealousy or possessiveness between Molly and Bobby? 

Is there anything there I am doing badly wrong, other than the two things I know and have hopefully explained? 

Sorry for such a long essay but I don't feel I would be asking the right question if all that background wasn't there!


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## Aeschylus (Sep 19, 2013)

Well, from what you say they're both lovely cats and they get on very well, so that's really good.

Have you tried playing with both of them together, maybe with a Da Bird toy or something similar? I think it might give them a chance to interact with each other and with you at the same time.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you yes I know I'm very lucky with them both.

I did start playing with them together but Molly tends to step back from the game because Bobby is big and gets excited, so she withdraws. We do still play but I would love to find a way to have them both involved together in the game ... any ideas? That would really help all 3 of us bond!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Thank you for giving us so much detail ForeverHome, it is very useful:thumbup1:

It sounds as though you have put in a lot of work with Molly, and it is paying dividends. I am completely in agreement with you about the slow, patient method, and being guided by what the cat is indicating she/he wants/needs.

If I may answer Question 3 (regarding jealousy/possessiveness). 
Cat society is not egalitarian I am afraid, and it is not advisable for humans to try and make it so, as it would confuse the cats and could even cause them to feel anxious and insecure.

In cat society it is accepted etiquette there is usually a dominant cat in a multi cat household. It could be an *alpha female* or an *alpha male*. 
In your household it seems clear Bobby is the dominant cat, and therefore he has the top cat position. Molly has seen this, and accepted it without any resentment. This is shown for example by the fact she has made no attempt to sleep on your bed, as she understands that spot has been reserved by Bobby. This may never change, no matter how well he and Molly get on, and it should be respected.

Your role should be to acknowledge the fact Bobby is the dominant cat by treating him accordingly. This will be reassuring for both Bobby and Molly, as it will reinforce how things really are between them, and as a result there will be less jealousy from either cat when it comes to how much attention they get from you.

Of course it does not mean ignoring Molly, far from it, but e.g. making sure you greet Bobby first when you come in, making a fuss of him first, putting his feeding bowl down first, and playing with him first. Once he knows he will always come first in this way, he will not mind when you want to play with Molly, stroke her or even have her on your lap.

Many cats do not like sharing the same period of playtime with their human companion(s) and as it seems your two fall into this category it is doubtful you will ever change them. I would not even try tbh, as again this behaviour is an example of Molly giving way to Bobby as the dominant cat. Or perhaps Bobby giving way out of politeness.

I see this kind of *giving way* behaviour with regard to playtime constantly with my 2 adult boys, and even with my two 8 mth old female kittens. One will give way to the other, in play with me or my OH. The cat or kitten who is giving way will often wander out of the room, not even stay and watch the play session. To us it looks as though one cat is being 'left out' but we are anthropomorphising and imposing our own values on them if we let ourselves think that way. 

As long as we ensure all our cats get the attention they need. "Need" being the operative word, as it is a very individualistic requirement, some cats needing more attention than others, for reasons explained above, plus factors such as some cats are by nature more gregarious, and others are more reserved).

It sounds to me as though you are doing all the right things to build your relationship with Molly and I would carry on as you are. . As she has had an abusive or neglectful history as a kitten it may be that she will always be rather nervous and mistrustful with people. I am saying this simply so you do not in any way feel you have failed if she does not in time become a very self confident cat. But I am sure her confidence will improve a great deal with such an understanding and patient companion as yourself.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Wise words from Chillminx 
Sounds like your cats are doing great and you have invested a lot of time, effort and love which is fab to hear


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you Chillminx, what you say all makes sense and feels reassuring. I am not sure Molly is getting as much as she needs though. She often instigates play then Bobby takes over, but I take your point about anthropomorphising. She does also wait for Bobby to be asleep around midday after Bobby has had his morning sleep on my lap to call me for attention, so that makes sense too. Where I sit to work is in his zone where she comes to 'visit' me but she only accepts stroking in her zone. 

I've also noticed they have quite distinct territory zones, they do go into each other's but it's clear which is Molly's small area. It's the part of the flat I walk through the most. He has claimed the areas where I sit still. I've always felt the only part they are struggling to negotiate is me, and now I can see how that is reflected in territory! Also, though they share litter trays, she always buries and he doesn't. Feeding is interesting too, the two bowls must go down at exactly the same time and with him on the left and her on the right, or neither of them will eat.

I will pay more attention to greeting etc because he used to always greet me at the door whereas for some reason he has become lazy and stays in his bed now, so she is the one I get to first when I come in. From what you say that could account for why he is asserting himself more. I need to do some more observation and adjustment there for sure. Without me there is no issue at all so it's got to be about me and up to me to sort it out. 

Thank you for your detailed reply that feels very helpful. Yes I do accept Molly will probably never become confident but I just hope for her sake she can be as relaxed and happy as she can be.

Added:
Bobby is very tender and encouraging with Molly. If she gets a fright (like when she pulled the airer down over herself in the bath!) he sits with her then goes with her to face the dangerous place again. Also when she went to the vet for her jabs I have never seen a cat in such distress as Bobby was, to the extent that I thought I should take him along for the ride. And when we got back he was half in the carrier with her before she could get out, making sure she was ok. But of course you're right he is just a caring top cat!

Playtime does challenge Molly I think because although she withdraws while we're playing she often pounces on Bobby afterwards inviting him to play with her, a little roughly maybe, so perhaps there is a bit of a challenge to his dominance in that play. It's the first time I've been in this situation and I really do want to get this right for them both.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Yes, that's it. They have it sorted and I have been upsetting the balance. 

Thank you so much, Chillminx!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Oh dear, we have one very upset household this morning!

Bobby has had his 3 hours on my lap when I had to move him. On the way to the bathroom I had my usual conversation with Molly, who said no thank you I don't want to be touched. That would have been her first greeting of the day from me and Bobby has made sure he is between Molly and me ever since, for 2 hours, no matter where I go. 

Bobby won't let me touch him. Molly won't let me touch her. Bobby won't let me near Molly. And Molly won't let Bobby near her. I'm going to take advantage of this to get on with some housework.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

*sigh* wouldn't it be simple if we could sit them down & let them know there's enough love & attention to go around!

I'm the problem here too  (well, one of them!)

Mia & Archie are now totally separated and things are a lot better - both seem happier  Archie is eating & putting weight & Mia's aggression has stopped 

BUT it's no way ideal and TBH it can be a total PITA sometimes trying to remember who's in / who's out and get her back in so he can come out (or vise versa)

And yet ..... before the massive fights (which were over me / my bedroom), the pair of them survived without incident both being shut in the house 24/7 (Archie was at this point going out all day) for 2 weeks when I was in hospital

Conclusion - as I wasn't here, there wasn't anything to fight about 


Things have gone downhill between them now and after the huge fights that happened - after new cats moved in next door which drove Mia to distraction as she hates other cats - they absolutely loathe each other and I can't see them ever being able to be in the same part of the house together .... BUT it was basically me that started the problems 


Good luck (from another waffler!)


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you so much Lilylass I actually breathed a sigh of relief reading your post and I do hope eventually yours can be friends again. But I'm glad to know I'm not being completely silly thinking the stress is over me, it sounds so arrogant! 

When I spoke to the rescue centre who arranged Molly's home to home placement with me, I explained in great detail about it being a small flat so tolerance was not going to be good enough. They were very understanding and agreed the new arrival had to be right. I suppose we're always going to get setbacks. 

Chillminx I reread your reply and I missed the bit about playtime. At the beginning they did share playtime beautifully, then Molly began to withdraw, but about the same time she began to pounce on him which was a shock to Bobby. He has got used to it now and wriggles free and chases her, but she has also become more gentle when she pounces. I took all this as positive, as they communicate better. 

I wondered if maybe Molly is beginning to challenge Bobby as she becomes more confident and if my encouragement and time with her has contributed to that? Making him insecure and less tolerant to her spending time with me?

If I had to separate them that would be an absolute disaster because her safe place is under the bed and he is used to sleeping on the bed, so I think it would cause more stress than it would solve.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Well day one has not been a success. Bobby is glued to my lap and Molly won't speak to me and even left it an hour and a half later than usual to ask for her food. She will not slow-blink me back at all and it took me 6 months to get that with her. 

Right now I feel as though I've undone 7 months of hard work just by letting Bobby be top cat for a day. 

Is it normal for them to be this upset by one subtle change in me?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

ohhhh (((hugs))) put it down to a bad day - and when you get up tomorrow it will be a new one with a fresh start.

Does Bobby always "get you" first? I'm just wondering if you can try to have a chat with Molly before he nabs you so that she's not feeling left out?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you Lilylass, yes before Molly arrived I always encouraged him to greet me at the door and he was always on my bed in the morning. This carried on because of Molly being so timid and not going on the bed so he was always there first. Lately he has got lazy and stays in his basket so Molly is the first I come to when I come in or get up. Incidentally her not going on the bed or the sofa I am sure is because she wasn't allowed to at her old house. 

So in a way if he doesn't like me greeting Molly first it's actually his own fault! But the human still has to be the one to deal with it *sigh* and I was taking Chillminx's advice to respect their hierarchy. I did already know this in my head but was not really doing it because of trying to work with Molly.

She was never socialised at that crucial early age so I know she will always be a little bit special but this situation really is challenging. If it was just her without Bobby it would be a challenge I can understand, but this 3-way dynamics is new territory to me and I so want to get it right for both their sakes.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

mmmmm totally agree you don't want to upset their hierarchy so maybe not such a good idea  (sorry) 

She actually is almost the exact opposite of Mia - who wasn't socialised with other cats at the crucial stage & that's part of her problem with them 

Any hope of her integrating with other felines was finished off when she got stuck in the middle of a fight between Archie & his arch rival and got absolutely hammered  - she's hated ... strike that - has been terrified of all cats (understandably) since then

will have a think and see if I can come up with any suggestions - I do think play may be the way forward so will try to think of games that they could both do with you without it getting too out of hand!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Poor Mia I understand why the total separation now, and admire your tenacity in not doing what many would do and giving up and rehoming one of them. 

Funnily enough I was just away playing with them. They share a favourite toy which is a rod, string and feathers, and I've already repaired it many times. They play with it differently, so I have a lot of control depending what I do with it. I feel that was a very constructive quarter of an hour. It reminded me of something I've overlooked. Bobby is the perfect gentleman and he does sit back sometimes until either he gets a burst of energy or I invite him back in. They also communicate, like lions, so they rarely go for it both at once (looks, ear position, watching each other). So yes I can respect the hierarchy there. 

Thank you for your support and encouragement today Lilylass x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

FH, sorry to hear things have not gone too well today, and plans need to be re-evaluated.

It sounds like what has happened is that Bobby has been feeling much more secure today, due to his position as Top Cat being reinforced by you. Having re-established his top position he has decided he doesn't want Molly to get a look in at all. So Bobby is better off and Molly is worse off.

It is going to be a case of needing to be a bit clever, even devious in how you manage the relationship with Bobby, so he _thinks_ he is in charge, but actually you are. I have to do this my alpha male, correct that - I had  to do it a lot when he and his brother first came to live with me 2 yrs ago, but as time has gone on it has become less necessary, as he is so much more confident of his status these days. This is the position I hope you can get to with Bobby.

So, when Bobby is around he gets your attention first, etc. If he is not around (e.g. he's asleep, or in another room), then leave him be and immediately go to Molly and interact with her. But if Bobby enters the room greet him, give him your attention for a couple of minutes, perhaps give him a few treats, and then switch your attention back to Molly.

This way the message you give Bobby is that he gets your immediate respect/attention as the dominant cat, but he doesn't always get your complete attention to the exclusion of all else.

Bobby having 3 hrs on your lap is lovely, but perhaps it's giving him the impression you are there for him to monopolise.

I certainly don't think you should do anything to undermine the work you have put in with Molly. In order to maintain the progress, or not lose any ground with her, it may be you will have to slow down with regard to acknowledging Bobby as Top Cat. My thoughts initially were that if you could stabilise Bobby's world for him by acknowledging the hierarchy, it might have direct benefits for Molly, as she would know better too where she stood.

But it does sound, as you say, that Molly may be starting to challenge Bobby's dominance. Perhaps Bobby will decide to accept giving way to her a bit, perhaps he won't. It is something they are going to have to work out between them, over time. Perhaps one example of him giving way to Molly, is he no longer runs to greet you when you come home, and has happily given up that role to Molly. All to the good, if so.

Hopefully Molly won't decide at some point, when she is much more confident, to stage a complete takeover bid for dominance, as I can't see that going down well with Bobby.

It is a complex situation - you're on the spot to note all the subtle nuances of behaviour between the cats and you, and between the cats themselves, so you have a feeling for what is going on. These things are never black & white, so my comments can only be fairly general remarks based on your description of the dynamics

As general rule, I would always advise acknowledging the hierarchy the cats have chosen amongst themselves in a multi cat household, but I do also feel one may have to use some wiles and deviousness to get the best out of everyone! 

EDIT: just read your post about the playtime session with the fishing rod toy. Sounds as though it went well !


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> Poor Mia I understand why the total separation now, and admire your tenacity in not doing what many would do and giving up and rehoming one of them.


Ahhhhhhh - long post coming (sorry)

I did actually try to rehome Mia thinking it was best for both of them (this was after them having 3 really, really bad fights in less than a month - this was brought on by new neighbours moving in who unfortunately have cats. Every time she saw them (either outside or along the fence between our gardens) she went ballistic.

Up to then, they'd had a cycle of fight, separate, reintroduce, tolerate, get on, tolerate, fight, bad fight with a full circle lasting around a year & being "copeable" with IYKWIM

Archie wasn't eating (he stops when he's stressed & is very skinny at the best of times) and had lost 2kg he didn't have to lose - he wouldn't come upstairs even though she was in the spare room.

She was in the spare room and I just couldn't see a workable way forward that would be fair to either of them - the "final straw" really was that she'd also started to attack Maisie (which had never happened before)

She went to seemingly the perfect home - one of my friends who I've known since primary school who lives in a flat (she hadn't been out for months by this point) and all seemed fine

After about a fortnight Archie started to come out his shell, started eating again & coming upstairs to bed  - he also started going out in the morning (which he's always done) BUT came back in before I went to work (which he's not done for years) and I came to realise he's obviously been trying to stay out her way - boy did I feel guilty  He became the "old" Archie, playful & cuddly

Unfortunately after a few weeks, things went downhill in Mia's new home, she started attacking them too & eventually weeing / pooping everywhere (which she'd never done here no matter how upset she was) - eventually we decided she'd have to come home

Oh boy was that mixed emotions - apart from her *issues* Mia really is the most affectionate cat I have ever known. She loves cuddles, being picked up, carried around - is always on your lap etc so I'd missed her terribly as you can imagine BUT I was so worried about how Archie would react with her being back as he was so happy again

When I went to collect her, I discovered a cat in the garden of the flats and obviously she'd been able to see it, which explained everything

So - the decision was made that if she came home, it would have to be total separation, I just couldn't go back to the fighting as it was horrific and they'd really started to hurt each other - and poor maisie was terrified too

Did warn you .... Sorry 



ForeverHome said:


> Funnily enough I was just away playing with them. They share a favourite toy which is a rod, string and feathers, and I've already repaired it many times. They play with it differently, so I have a lot of control depending what I do with it. I feel that was a very constructive quarter of an hour. It reminded me of something I've overlooked. Bobby is the perfect gentleman and he does sit back sometimes until either he gets a burst of energy or I invite him back in. They also communicate, like lions, so they rarely go for it both at once (looks, ear position, watching each other). So yes I can respect the hierarchy there.


That sounds much more positive 

If you can try to have a little play with that both of them every day, I'm sure that will help loads 



ForeverHome said:


> Thank you for your support and encouragement today Lilylass x


 Your very welcome & anytime 

(if you can put up with my waffles too!)


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Sorry I knew it was complicated but I don't think I really got just how until I started to try and explain it. But this is great because it's also getting me looking at it and thinking differently. I always thought I was letting them sort out their own hierarchy but not allowing Bobby to get between me and Molly. 

Chillminx - No I don't think it needs reevaluating, I think your first advice was spot on, I just applied it wrong. Molly will have felt insecure that I didn't go out of my way to her, as that is what I've always done. Hence not wanting to know me all day! Now we've played, she is much more herself and is asking me to go play some more. Because they adapt to us as much as we adapt to them!

I should have clarified that Bobby spends long periods on my lap purrely (I'll leave that typo in) because I work from home and he can curl up there while I work. He has been more clingy lately but I see why now. The same reason he's had less cuddles and both have had less playtime since Christmas is because I have not been right because we tragically lost my little brother. But I can easily put him in his basket and he will stay there till next time he wakes up and wants a cuddle, so I can solve that one. You're right I do cross my legs for too long sometimes!

It's only been 7 months, Molly's confidence is growing which alters her relationship with Bobby and with me, maybe it's still early days between them and between us considering her background ... but that's also why I don't want the early days to start wrong. Bobby is a caring gentleman but I guess not at the expense of me, he does give way to her in many other situations. And Molly's attachment to him is growing too, she wouldn't eat this afternoon until he came to eat with her. Would she make a takeover bid? Possible, but I think Bobby would not give in over me. He actually looks to me for permission, reassurance and safety - that is unusual for a cat.

No, I really think your advice is spot on and I have to find by trial and error how to apply it just right and it will work. I have also switched them from 2 meals a day plus a little dry to 3 smaller meals a day and a lot less dry but more meat chews - that will reduce Molly's energy spent on trying to get fed an hour early, so that I am listening to her needs more, and I think that will help. 

Thank you, it is so hard to give such sound advice remotely and I truly appreciate all the time and effort you are putting in to help us x

Lilylass - I think you merit a reply all to yourself ...


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Lilylass what an awful situation for all of you! Puts our problems into perspective a bit. I wish I had something to suggest but you really are doing so well out of such a difficult situation. Only one thing, sorry I didn't get who Maisie is?

But if Mia is so traumatised she hurts people in her frustration just because there are cats outside her home, she needs such a level of care and understanding that has to be with a special person. Thank goodness at least she has that. 

One question about Mia and Archie sharing you - how do you split your time between them and whose territory are you in most of the time when you're not actively spending time with one of them?

Yeah I love waffles, haven't had them for years but now I'm hungry lol

I have normally played with them every day, especially before I feed them (not in the morning as they are just too desperate for breakfast!) and before bed ... but as above I've let that slip these past 3 weeks.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Maisie is my black lab - not sure if you've got signatures visible but she's in the top left pic if you do

I got both Archie & Mia when they were far too young (stories for another day) she weighed 360g she arrived at around 4 weeks - he was about the same age & both were hand reared which may explain some of their issues

Mia has the spare room & Archie spends the vast majority of time in my room - both go everywhere else

Archie generally has the run of the house but is always in my room during the day as I sadly can't trust her not to attack Maisie yet & that wouldn't be fair

Archie tends to go out for about 1/2 hour when I get home & then goes up to my room & really never moves from there again he's never spent time downstairs as the lounge was always her room & where she was when they were separated before - so that's when mia gets out

Some days she doesn't come out at all & others only a short time - she is getting better & more confident

Just to add an extra *oddity* she will lie in a bed where Archie has slept so isn't bothered by his smell - but I think that may be more a dominance thing (she will also wee in is littrr tray given a chance!)

Its been really hard as I have patio doors in the lounge so really worried she'd see next doors cats & freak again BUT Chillminx suggested some fab stuff you can stick to the glass so you can't see through it & that's made a huge difference - esp to my nerves!

I guess my time is divided pretty fairly- Archie does sleep with me so I guess he has the most time actually with me but & I do go into her room to play with her as well as let her out so she might have more quality time iykwim 

Its a lot easier now she can come into the lounge at night as I was really struggling to spend time separately with both her & Maisie before

Not ideal but all 3 seem happy, I've discussed it with my vet & she's happy so we'll continue as is and see what happens


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

AH ok I'm with you now, yes I see Maisie. Well if all seem happy enough then you really have done an amazing job with an extremely trying situation!

I don't know about Mia lying on Archie's blanket, Bobby did that in the first week Molly was here under the bed, he adopted her carrier and still uses it now as a bed (I've removed the back so it's a wicker tunnel) but there didn't seem to be any dominance issue. I was worried when he used her tray but she uses his just as comfortably and now they are the main tray and the secondary tray. What I have seen in the last couple of weeks is that she buries and he doesn't - now that is definitely a top cat action, but simply using the tray I wouldn't read too much into. It's still scent mixing which could also be positive? If anything I'd say Bobby's dominance is more protective than defensive, if that makes sense. Don't know if that distinction rings any bells for you wiith your two?

Does your vet practice have a proper animal psychologist? Or have you gone down that route already?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Thx FH behaviourist is on the think list but have put off as she's calmed down - I'd really have to let her see another cat for them to see how bad she is & for obvious reasons don't want to do that household is quite calm atm

Wishing you a better day with bobby & molly


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you, there is a definite shift but it's too early to say if it's a good one or not.

Hope your household stays calm and dare I say it eventually comes to harmony once more. It may seem overambitious but never lose hope.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Ok today's update, and then I really must stop spamming up the forum so much and get some work done for a few days!

It's been a very strange night and day. When I went to bed Molly cried and called. I called to her but she stayed put and kept calling. I have learned that she is calling Bobby, not me, and eventually with my encouragement he went to her and she was quiet. I've no idea of they played because I sleep through it!

Molly woke me as usual but at 6.30 not the usual 8.30 and would not let up. To Bobby's disgust I got up and fed them and went back to bed - well Madam did not like this because normally once she has food in her bowl I am up! But I turned over and went back to sleep. 

Bobby got his usual cuddles while I have my coffee, then went to sleep in his basket at my feet. So he feels more secure and back to normal. A bit later I went to Molly and yes she wanted affection - I am going to have to video this because it really is quite unique. 

This evening Bobby is on and off my lap as normal and Molly is back in her chair, where she hasn't been much because she's been on the small cat tree glued to the heater for a month. So with me both cats are very much back to normal. With each other there hasn't been much interaction today so quiet but not particularly tense, Bobby did less lying down in positions that blocked Molly from me. More work to do but at least back to where we were before I upset things yesterday.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I've started to video playtime with one hand on my phone and the other on the toy, to get a better picture of what's going on between the two of them when I play it back. I have to say I'm surprised at the result. No entertainment value it's not going to go viral, but looking at the relationship between the two of them I think it's quite revealing.

Bobby & Molly share playtime with me - YouTube


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

FH - it is very impressive the 2 of them will share playtime with you:thumbsup:
OK so Bobby is the main player, but Molly is interested all along and sits nearby watching, absorbed in the game and ready to join in. Then at the end of your clip she can't resist any longer and makes a dart for the string at the same time as Bobby does.  So sweet! 

To me it looks as though they are getting on well and have formed a bond. Lovely to see! Even my two 4 yr old boys (siblings) don't share their playtime with me like your two do. One brother plays with me and the other one walks off out of the room. 
My 2 girls (sisters, who are very close and affectionate with each other) do sometimes share playtime with me, but they are only littl'uns at 8 mths old, so whether this will last as they grow up I don't know.....


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you Chillminx, that is hugely reassuring. It is rare they both go at once so I was lucky to catch that, usually they take turns. Normal pattern is one will dominate at first then either tire and step back or the other will muscle in and take over. They are ever so good together. 

Really the only issue is over me. I am making a lot more effort, it's heavy on my time at the moment, but focusing on playtime seems to be more productive than trying to get the affection balance right with each one. Does that make sense in cat psychology? I did read somewhere that as part of the introduction process it can help to give them catnip together and to play with both at the same time, and over the last couple of days the play certainly does seem to be helping the other issues fall into place a bit.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

'Play' is an excellent way of getting cats to bond with each other, as well as confirming their bond with you.  I agree it can be time consuming 

I do feed treats to each cat at the same time, e.g. Dreamies or Thrive dry snacks, which I place on the floor near them for them to come and take. 

You may be OK giving them cat nip, but I tend not to risk it during introductions as some cats get hyper and skittish on the smallest amount of catnip. If
either of yours were to get skittish there could be an over-reaction (e.g. swiping or hissing) whilst sharing playtime, and this could result in a misunderstanding between the two of them.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Oddly enough CM it's not during play that any fisticuffs ever occur. If it's any rougher than play, it's Molly, and it's almost invariably when Bobby has been hogging the toy too much or hogging me too much. Then it's a deliberate walk over and slap him. 

The specific worry I had which prompted me to ask for help is that she started, when Bobby was lying there chilling out, coming over, sniffing him, then she would wrap her paws round his neck and bite at his neck. Bobby was very shocked by this behaviour and I didn't like the way it could develop so I kept a close eye on things. 

After a few weeks I realised two things - first, she just has a rougher way of playing than he is used to. Second, she was toning it down a bit, and thirdly, he was learning that she didn't mean it aggressively. So they have made great steps towards meeting each other half way. But it was the fact it always seemed to start over the issue of me that made it so important for me to make any changes I needed to, and quickly!

Bobby was the one she bonded with immediately, he is the one getting jealous now that Molly and I are building our own bond, so he is more possessive over me, so now Molly can get jealous when he wins too much of me. Hope this makes sense 

eta - Molly has been known to hiss at me to let me know where the boundaries are but I've never heard her hiss or growl at Bobby. Tbh within a month of her joining us I would class the pair as inseparable.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> > within a month of her joining us I would class the pair as inseparable.
> 
> 
> Not something I have ever experienced first-hand, when introducing/integrating cats. It must be wonderful to see Would love to see more little video clips of the two of them sometime.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

chillminx said:


> ForeverHome said:
> 
> 
> > Not something I have ever experienced first-hand, when introducing/integrating cats. It must be wonderful to see Would love to see more little video clips of the two of them sometime.
> ...


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Aren't cats complicated 

I start to understand a little more about them (ie having figured out that Mia's not really a nasty horrible cat who attacks anything in sight, she's just scared of everything and lashes out first) but have no real idea of the depths of how their minds work!

Glad things are settling down - I think the relationship between the 2 of them is lovely and so pleased you're being allowed to share play time


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> > as a show and stud cat he must have seen a lot of his friends go into a carrier and never come back.
> 
> 
> I had 'forgotten' until your comment reminded me that Bobby had been a stud cat. Perhaps this is one reason why he accepted Molly so well from the start. As a stud cat he would have been used to new female cats often being put into his pen with him. And each female may have spent several days with him at a time, as is often the way. I would not be surprised if he missed them when they left.
> ...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It does very much change their behaviour when they've been kept entire, or so I'm finding with my lad. He regularly checks up on all my girlies, and if I take one away to the vet or to a show without him, he always keeps a very close eye on her when she gets back, even grumpy grannycat who will beat the snot out of him for his efforts (she doesn't take kindly to having her body space invaded). If one of the girls is uneasy at a show, he will go in with her (if I let him) and cuddle until she settles. He has never lashed out at another cat even when he's been whallopped soundly himself, and I've seen him just sit there and take it from a girl half his size who he could have squashed with a paw, then go back and give her a cuddle five minutes later when I dropped a baking tray and scared her.

Studs, when chosen rightly, should all exhibit a similar temperament, and if your Bobby is who I think he is, then those breeders would have chosen for exactly that reason.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Lilylass - personally I couldn't care less about their breeding and pedigrees, I am totally fascinated with their psychology and in awe of how adaptable, intelligent and truly amazing these little creatures really are. B&M are teaching me so much more, I don't have a telly, my life at home is through this screen and the endless entertainment and surprises & challenges these delightful companions offer me.

Chillminx - very interesting and might explain my old Henry's sensitivity as he was 'done' at 4 years old having decided he was moving in with us and little Sarah to look after her in her old age. Indeed I am told there was one queen who never let another male touch her but Bobby. 

Aw your boy sounds utterly charming!

We did research this match very carefully, bearing in mind I had no intention of having two but quickly realised Bobby needed the company. First we tried my neighbour's cat who was up for rehome but she was never keen on him. I then contacted a rescue place locally, explained the situation in full and they were ... outstanding, brilliant, understanding, just fantastic. They understood that in such a small space tolerating each other would not do, and it was a miracle Molly just came up. I also spoke at length with the lady I got Bobby from, so I had loads of help and support with finding the right companion. That and careful observation was how I decided not to separate them at the start, and with Bobby's guidance Molly was able to come out of her shell to face the scary new human so much more quickly. This is how I found this forum - loads and loads of research on introducing cats. Molly also had a past of wanting to make friends which the rescue told me is unusual in girls.

Carly - thank you, also reassuring and good to know he's not the only one, if that makes sense. I'm told breeder circles are small but I'm still chuffed to bits that he might be famous!

I can't undo the damage caused to Molly when she was a kitten but it's so important to me (sorry I'm waffling on again) to give her everything possible to trust, relax and be happy for the rest of her life. Bobby too of course but he has had such a different start in life.

Molly has taken a step closer in trusting me these last 2 days so I hope to get a video clip maybe tomorrow.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> Lilylass - personally I couldn't care less about their breeding and pedigrees, I am totally fascinated with their psychology and in awe of how adaptable, intelligent and truly amazing these little creatures really are. B&M are teaching me so much more, I don't have a telly, my life at home is through this screen and the endless entertainment and surprises & challenges these delightful companions offer me.





ForeverHome said:


> I'm told breeder circles are small but I'm still chuffed to bits that he might be famous!


It's funny as Maisie was a show, then breeding dog - her pedigree is excellent and her breeder is very well respected in showing circles and has great success

I actually contacted her asking if she ever rehomed adults and she said "4 in over 40 years" and I thought "oh well, that's the end of that" but we chatted over email for several weeks and then several phone calls when she said she might have a dog she'd think of rehoming BUT she still had to have her last litter - which could take anything up to a year (if she didn't take her next season)

She usually keeps her dogs when retired but she had several older dogs and several younger ones still to have litters from & she said sometimes there's the odd one that you just know will do better in a family environment being a pampered pet 

Anyway ..... I treked all the way to hers (other side of Scotland & hours away on horrid roads!) and ..... went into the living room where there were 2 puppy pens and Maisie (the other mum was outside having a quick break)

Maisie jumped on the sofa beside me, tucked her head / chin into the gap of my neck between my shoulder / chin and just gazed at me .... and that was that - she made the choice, not me OR her breeder! 

I did meet the dog I'd originally gone to see who was also lovely (and I'd also have in a shot) but it'd already been decided really!

It was the longest 6 weeks waiting for the pups to go to their new homes & sure I was just as excited as any of their new owners!

I do like reading how her off-spring are getting on at both shows and in other things - one of her girls is a Cadaver dog  - it's also a small world

*ETA* have you googled Bobby - you can find quite a lot about their past (if they've been shown etc) online


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Oh what a beautiful story, it was so obviously her decision, how gorgeous. Isn't it unusual for breeders to keep their retired dogs? I'd imagine they would end up with dozens!!

First I ever heard of cadaver dogs was when Maddy McCann went missing, what an amazing job to have to do. Must be really tough on their handlers. I would never have thought they would recruit like that from breeders but then that's how little I know. I'm afraid I've always been less than keen on the breeding side of things and now I see have in my face the difference between a pedigree cat 10 generations of being bred for specific traits compared with a common moggy I am quite shocked. For example, Bobby when he washes his ruff, his fur is so long he struggles to get the end of it off his tongue. I find that hard, because what I value in cats is different to what a breeder values. I am not criticising, it's just a different way of looking at things! With dogs it's so different, most breeds are there to serve different purposes. 

Google on Bobby currently brings up an advert for one of his daughters for sale, nothing else. I have GCCF online and he is on Pawpeds or whatever it's called so I do have a fair bit, nothing about his show career though. But to me he's just a cat ... with a heck of a lot of fur! 

So how old is Maisie and how long has she been with you?


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

I think we were all very lucky that the litter with Maisie at the time was her last one or there may have been a problem!

I do sometimes wonder if her breeder secretly hoped Maisie & I would 'click' ..... she still has the other dog and is, I believe, still showing her

Maisie apparently went off showing when she was about 2 so was retired from that and became a breeding dog

I think it depends on the breeder, many do keep their retired dogs but, as you say it can get out of hand! I know Maisie's breeder had roughly 3 'oldies', 4 either retired / about to retire breeding girls (incl Maisie), 2 or 3 that had had 1 litter but still to have more & a few youngsters still to have their first litter and a couple of pups to bring on 

They are all very well cared for & loved but, as she herself admits, by the time you've got travelling to shows, sorting out matings, looking after pregnant ones / pups when they're born, finding suitable homes etc etc, the older retired ones are really left to their own devices most of the time with a big walk once a day

She said Maisie was never really part of the pack IYKWIM, she always craved human attention much more than other canine company - and that's still true now. 

She was a bit 'lost' is the only way I can describe it when she came - she'd never been a pet and really didn't know what she was supposed to do

She went through full puppyhood & all the usual adolescent stuff like mouthing that they do ..... very odd to see in a 5.5 year old dog! but I'm so glad she's now had the change to do it! 

We did go through a tough stage - there was times when I thought 'omg what have I done' as she chased the cats  (despite being told she was fine with them - I think the cats there were wiley outside cats who put the dogs in their place very quickly!) and I couldn't let her off lead for months as she chased pretty much anything in sight 

She's fab now  she will still chase things but I know the signs & can avoid places where I can't see what's coming (beaches are great - dense woods are terrible!) 

I've had her coming up 2 years now  I can't believe it's that long already!

I can find quite a lot of info on her online by googling her kennel name which is quite nice

Re the cadavar dog thing, it's funny as I'd gone to meet up with her breeder last summer at a show - taking Maisie so she could see she was OK! - and she was saying one of the police forces were coming to see if there were any of the older dogs that might be good drugs dogs - I always thought they took them really young too!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Sorry Lilylass I was trying to get some work done yesterday only to have the day hijacked by a sick ex and his lumpy cat. 

So much of your story with Maisie resonates here - for example Bobby had no idea what to do the first time I got toys out for him. Then he discovered the joys of play with people and having a lap pretty much on demand. I thought mostly he was just getting used to me but when his previous human came to visit she said it was wonderful to see a whole new Bobby. 

It would be different for a pet to adjust to kennel life, they might think they've been abandoned, but I know exactly what you mean by her dogs being well cared for and loved but just not given the outpouring of love they get as a pet. I believe they don't need it or crave it, but if they get it they love it and would be miserable if it was given then taken away. 

My old cat Misha was always a town cat and perfectly happy, till aged 12 she went to the moors of the Dark Peak for 2 months. When we went back to town, she was depressed for quite a while and I felt so cruel. 

I had to smile when you said about chasing everything that moves. It must have been such a joy for her to be with you and become a pet with all that attention she couldn't contain herself!

A little update on Molly - the last couple of days she has been much more affectionate and I've also remembered something I did already know but had forgotten. It's not the food she wakes me up for. She wants me to be up and about, so even if she is at the other end of the room dozing against the heater with her back to me, she still values my company. Video clip to come of how she asks me for affection and struggles to overcome her fear of affection.

It's a reminder that we must accept love as it's offered to us, not set conditions and measurements of how we expect to be given love.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It saddens me to hear of cases like this. When I took on my first breeding girl, she didn't know what toys were either, and it took me six months to show her how to play iwth a human, never mind on her own.

There is no reason why cats from a breeding household shouldn't know what toys are. My own regularly charge around after/with/on the end of all manner of toys. In fact, someone said to me the other day that my cats have more toys than their children! My stud run, even though it's only used in daylight hours by request (he literally asks to go out, then shouts at me if I don't let him) is festooned with hanging things, feathers, balls, climbing posts, things to carry, things to throw, things to chase and things to kill. That's the way it should be, whether an animal is breeding or not. Pets first and foremost, breeding cats second.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Carly, I remember the time (over 20 yrs ago) when I was doing my research into the BSH breed, and visiting breeders to have a look at their cats. 

I recall clearly at several reputable breeders premises seeing various gorgeous stud cats on their own in pens with not a toy in sight, just bare floor, with bed, water and a couple of shelves to sit on. 

I was told by the breeders these cats never went into the house. When I asked how much human company they got, I was told the breeder spent 'a bit of time' with them every evening. It didn't sound like much and I found it very sad seeing these beautiful cats living such a restricted life. It seemed so exploitative. 

The view of the breeders seemed to be that the studs are so busy with their 'love lives' they are not interested in anything else. I am sure this is not true!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

When Ben (RIP xx) came to me (unplanned) the first thing I did the next day was go to the local pet shop to get a few bits & pieces to tide me over until I could get everything he needed

Of course, toys were in amongst the stuff I got and took them home and - he had absolutely NO idea what they were for 

The sad part is that this was a dog that came from a family home where there was one other dog and 2 cats - and kids 

What family - especially one with kids - has a dog and no toys for them to play with together - and obviously never had?

I just don't get that 

Very pleased to say that it didn't take him long to learn what they were for either & he loved his toys  


There were toys where Maisie came from  - but as her breeder said, 'it'll be lovely for her to have her own toys'. She really does love playing with them & will always hunt for 'toy of the day' in the mornings. I am often abandoned at the bottom of the stairs waiting while she runs around leaving one after another until she's found THE one she wants before she'll come and say good morning!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

chillminx said:


> I recall clearly at several reputable breeders premises seeing various gorgeous stud cats on their own in pens with not a toy in sight, just bare floor, with bed, water and a couple of shelves to sit on.


That is so sad



carly87 said:


> There is no reason why cats from a breeding household shouldn't know what toys are. My own regularly charge around after/with/on the end of all manner of toys. In fact, someone said to me the other day that my cats have more toys than their children! My stud run, even though it's only used in daylight hours by request (he literally asks to go out, then shouts at me if I don't let him) is festooned with hanging things, feathers, balls, climbing posts, things to carry, things to throw, things to chase and things to kill. That's the way it should be, whether an animal is breeding or not. Pets first and foremost, breeding cats second.


That's the way it should be  and I know that when I'm in a position to get my next cat that the breeder I choose will be someone like you Carly who provides an enriched environment and loves their cats like pets as that's the way it should be


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

CM, I've seen that all too often myself, and it saddens me too. Ok, some boys are dirty, and they can't be given certain toys because they'll wee or poo on them, but it doesn't prevent you giving things that can be disinfected like ping pong balls, bottle caps, straws, boinks, pet springs... the list goes on.

LL, I insist that all of mine have an enriched environment, and allow them to shape it as much as they're able by telling me what they want. I'd rather my lad stayed indoors in the warm, but he'd rather go out, and makes it clear when he wants to go out and clear when he wants to come back in. So we compromised. he goes out, and i bought him a heater. So he can now go out and still be in the warm!

My girls on the other hand, tell me in no uncertain terms that they don't want to be out there at all in the winter, thank you very much. Stinky boys might be stupid enough to go, but they certainly aren't!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

I can vouch for Carly's enriched environment, both my girls have had the luxury of an overnight stay in the stud run (show trip), and keep asking me when they are going on holiday again! *grin* Can't move in either run or house without tripping over toys, it's cat heaven!

I blame her for all the new toys which are taking over my place, the disease is catching!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

your girls were horrendously deprived. They didn't even have a Tigga Tower or anything! I'm sorry, but that level of neglect is almost cruelty. What was i supposed to do but help rectify it!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Accepted, but when are you going to stop helping rectify it? When I can no longer find any of the floors in my rooms for toys? *grin*


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Bobby's first and favourite toy was the loose-woven nylon cord I cut from an old bag. He learned to chase it and was soon pouncing and flailing around after it. But the biggest fun came by chance when I dropped it over his tail. He would spin madly to catch it and when it eventually fell off he would bring it back, drop it at my feet and give me that seductive Wmaow to do it again.

He did play by himself no problem and still has loads of toys, but ever since Molly's been around they both much prefer the wand with a simple piece of elastic and as per video above prefer to play with two - and of course the two of them together! Molly has no idea what to do with a toy on her own, despite Bobby showing her. But then, she is scarred from her kittenhood in all kinds of ways. I took off my fleece tonight and she bolted. I put the fleece on the floor and called her back, encouraged her to sniff it and she was ok then, but this happens a lot. A while ago something scared her under the sofa so I turned it on its back, we both inspected it, I sprayed it with catnip then put it back down - took a whole evening, but that's what it takes to nip the fear cycle in the bud and help her develop confidence for herself. 

Carly this sounds wonderful and if I was ever in the market for a kitten I'd certainly come and look ...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

your patience with her is really lovely. This is exactly what i did with my first girl that I got, who was frightened of her own shadow. When she'd find something scary like, oh I dunno, me putting a bag on the floor, we'd both go and tackle the monster together until it was banished. That builds a very strong bond between human and cat. Now, my little girl is happy to go to shows, roll around, lie upside down and scream at passers-by to come talk to her, flop around on the judge's table, and generally be a total tart for a bit of attention. It's lovely to see!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

But first the cat has to see you as a point of reference possibly worth trusting, or you could never start. That's an amazing result Carly, all I aim for is that Molly should never be scared in her own home. What you say is very encouraging. I love your two-way conversations  

No headboard scratching this morning. I put the scratching post in front of it. So I was woken by a heavy pounce on the bed instead. Purr-fect, big praise. Prevent unwanted behaviour gently by seeing what the cat wants by doing it and offering an alternative. I hate saying no. She actually wants me to be up, and food isn't the reason.

Thinks I may have hit on a better idea for the morning - instead of Bobby cuddles with my coffee, today we had playtime with them both. Then cuddles and PF with second coffee. molly is sitting nearby looking out of the window instead of curling up on her bed. I have a good feeling about this. I have two contented cats instead of one smug and one accepting. Play session ended when they both tired, with a Webbox stick.

So can we all book into your cat hotel or is it cats only??


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Heehee, you can sleep in the stud run if you like... If Tango knew there was someone out there though, he'd yell and yell and complain until i took him out so that he could jump all over your head and wake you up!

When we stay in hotel rooms for shows, I compare him to a kid at a theme park. He loves zooming around all over the place, doing laps and wall of death, and it's all the better if you're asleep in the bed on his route. He loves nothing better than to do a massive belly flop right onto your face, pretend he's going to savage you, then roll off, tummy up, do the loudest purr he can manage right down your ear, then squeak at you until you give him a love... If you can handle that, then you can book in any time!


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Sounds like heaven! I'd love a cat as a purring pillow ...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

You wouldn't at three in the morning when the purring pillow sticks his paw in your mouth to wake you up.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm an expert at sleeping through cats. All the doors are open in my flat and I get up in the morning to the scratching barrel on its side and fur everywhere, things slid off the table, coffee table knocked over, I'm wondering if they have all the neighbours round for parties! Maybe they slip me some tablets to knock me out?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Playtime again, this time Molly dominates.





Still haven't got Molly's asking for affection, because when she does it I go to her and forget to tape it!


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