# 2nd litter size question



## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

Hi 
First of all I'm not a breeder, but accidents do happen. Anyway I have a small Siamese female who had her first litter about 5 years ago, she would have been about 1.5 to 2 years old when she had the kittens. She had 4 kittens.

Well due to my softheart in allowing an unfixed homeless male into the home and a busy vet, Daisy ended up pregnant. This morning she gave birth to 2 kittens. 

I'm really surprised because I always heard that 2nd litters were bigger then first litters. The question is how normal is it for her to have a smaller litter, should I be concerned or is there anything I should be watching for.

Daisy is a petite Siamese and the father is a white Turkish Angora


Just to answer any other questions as to what might seem irresponsible on my part:
Daisy's mate for her first litter was fixed afterwards and still lives with us. Hubby refused to fix Daisy cause she is his special little girl and he saw what another female cat (plus the dogs) went through getting spayed and he refuses to put his little girl through that. 

Snowy (the father of today's kittens) was brought to our door by our flat manager because his owners were getting rid of him, and if he didn't find a home he'd be put into the street (not a nice place here (Egypt) especially for a turkish angora with no street sense) so we thought we had a home for the cat, but those people only kept him for 2 months before returning him to us The timing just happened to be when Daisy went into heat. Not sure how he was so quick in getting her pregnant considering we were keeping them separate, but best laid plans ....... Snowy is now fixed


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

It is wrong on so many levels to allow a 7 year old female cat to remain unsprayed, let alone get pregnant. Sorry but just my opinion


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I think with cats it often depends how many matings take place (with either the same or different males).

Cats ovulate each time they are mated, so if there were a number of matings for her first pregnancy she had more chance of becoming pregnant. You said that you were surprised that this little Casanova managed to get to her at all - so maybe there was one quickie and this resulted in the two kittens. Also - your cat is getting a bit old to have babies - her fertility will be declining anyway. And it is not unusual to have only a single kitten in a litter - I've known this happen a few times, so if she seems well and healthy I wouldn't worry about her - but it would be much better for her health if she was spayed - to be constantly calling but unable to mate is very damaging to a queen cat, physically and psychologically - yes, cats can become depressed.

I appreciate that you are worried that she will have a bad reaction to her surgery, but honestly - in the long run she will be safer and healthier, and has a better chance of a long and comfortable life.

Your kittens must be very pretty. What are you going to do with them? Are you keeping them? Are they both girls, or one of each?

And - do you have any pictures?


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

its not clear why you didn't spay her after the first litter?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Wiz201 said:


> its not clear why you didn't spay her after the first litter?


OP's husband was worried that she'd have a bad operation experience


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

Google a disease called pyometra. It's common in unspayed females, especially those over 5 years old. It's a much bigger risk than a routine spaying operation.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

Wiz201 said:


> its not clear why you didn't spay her after the first litter?


Did you miss the sentence that says Hubby refuses to agree to it?

You know I hesitated posting the question here cause I figured the criticism & judgement would come which is why I added the explanation. I think it's really sad that people can't ask a question without having to defend themselves and decisions.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Sorry I don't agree with what you are doing but she isn't my girl so will give advise anyway.

My queen always has one kitten born, don't know why and doesn't matter how many matings she has, its always one kitten.

I haven't reached the age of your girl as I always spay my girls at 4yrs or younger but I have heard if girls are 5yrs plus (another breeder I know still breeds her queen at 7yrs old), then litters are smaller, again I don't know why.

you must be very lucky your girl hasn't had any health problems as yet because my girl had pyometra after failing to get pregnant but again each girl is different.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

lostbear said:


> And it is not unusual to have only a single kitten in a litter - I've known this happen a few times, so if she seems well and healthy I wouldn't worry about her - but it would be much better for her health if she was spayed - to be constantly calling but unable to mate is very damaging to a queen cat, physically and psychologically - yes, cats can become depressed.
> 
> Your kittens must be very pretty. What are you going to do with them? Are you keeping them? Are they both girls, or one of each?
> 
> And - do you have any pictures?


Thank you for your helpful answer, I feel less concerned now.

Daisy actually does get to mate, as Tootous (the fixed male) does mate with her when she goes into heat.

When they spay/neuter cats/dogs here, it's done a little differently somehow and the animals still perform, but no pregnancies. My female spayed dogs and the female spayed cat still go into heat. 
There is a whole cultural issue here with spaying/neutering that I have to combat, plus hubby acted as the Vets assistant when the operations were done for the other pets.

Since the kittens were just born this morning,I don't have pictures nor tried to touch them as I don't want to disturb them too much. So far they look like small pure white mice


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Zhari said:


> Did you miss the sentence that says Hubby refuses to agree to it?
> 
> You know I hesitated posting the question here cause I figured the criticism & judgement would come which is why I added the explanation. I think it's really sad that people can't ask a question without having to defend themselves and decisions.


Less of an operation risk than having a potential emergency getting a kitten out and having pyometra.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

Jansheff said:


> Google a disease called pyometra. It's common in unspayed females, especially those over 5 years old. It's a much bigger risk than a routine spaying operation.


Considering that the other pets I've had spayed here still go into heat, I'm not sure that I'd be able to avoid pyometra anyway. 

Considering all the horror vet stories I've heard about in Egypt, if I related them to you all, I'm sure you'd be much more understanding why I'm just happy that there were no complications and I've managed to remain pretty much puppy and kitten free. Our Vet is actually very good.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Zhari said:


> Considering that the other pets I've had spayed here still go into heat, I'm not sure that I'd be able to avoid pyometra anyway.
> 
> Considering all the horror vet stories I've heard about in Egypt, if I related them to you all, I'm sure you'd be much more understanding why I'm just happy that there were no complications and I've managed to remain pretty much puppy and kitten free. Our Vet is actually very good.


How can they go into heat? Our vets here remove the ovaries and the uterus in female dogs and cats.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Both of my daughters have travelled/worked extensively in the Middle East; both have now been settled in the Middle East for some years; they own cats and both occasionally look after friends' cats. All of those cats, bar none, were spayed/neutered in the usual way.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Zhari said:


> Did you miss the sentence that says Hubby refuses to agree to it?
> 
> You know I hesitated posting the question here cause I figured the criticism & judgement would come which is why I added the explanation. I think it's really sad that people can't ask a question without having to defend themselves and decisions.


Tell your hubby hes risking *his special girls life* for one leaving a cat to call for all those year she is at high risk of pyometra.

Secondly giving birth so late in life could have killed her most breeders spay their queen at 4 year old..tell him this.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Considering that the other pets I've had spayed here still go into heat, I'm not sure that I'd be able to avoid pyometra anyway


Perhaps you could elaborate. No uterus = no pyo as far as I'm aware but as always I'm interested in anything new.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Daisy is a petite Siamese


She will be undersized because she wasn't spayed. She's had 5 years of her body being subject to hormonal upheaval for no good reason.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Breeding a small cat is asking for trouble,poor cat.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm not sure of the scientific reason why, but I would guess that smaller litters for older Mum's is just natures way 
You say your vet is very good, however I would disagree if he is unable to perform the simplest of spay operations properly. I have never heard of a female cat continuing to go into heat once spayed


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

havoc said:


> She will be undersized because she wasn't spayed. She's had 5 years of her body being subject to hormonal upheaval for no good reason.


I'm not sure about that cause the majority of cats in Egypt aren't spayed and they seem to reach a decent size. The cats I do know of who are spayed here see to get heavier looking, but not any taller.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

havoc said:


> Perhaps you could elaborate. No uterus = no pyo as far as I'm aware but as always I'm interested in anything new.


I don't quite understand why they still go into heat or why the neutered male still performs, I did ask the Vet and he assured me he had taken everything, however I still have spayed female dog and spayed female cat who continue to go into heat. It could be the Vets fault, and I did do some research on the issue and found that in some cases it does happen.

My only option would be to have exploratory surgery done to find the problems but that could end up with just as bad of results as them getting ill and I'm just not willing to risk that.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Both of my daughters have travelled/worked extensively in the Middle East; both have now been settled in the Middle East for some years; they own cats and both occasionally look after friends' cats. All of those cats, bar none, were spayed/neutered in the usual way.


Do they live in Egypt? Can they give you the name of the Vet or hospital they used?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Zhari said:


> Do they live in Egypt? Can they give you the name of the Vet or hospital they used?


No, both settled in Israel but my eldest daughter did some volunteer work for ESMA whilst in Egypt. I'm sure if you give them a call they will be able to give you contact details for vets who spay/neuter in the "usual" fashion.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Zhari said:


> I don't quite understand why they still go into heat or why the neutered male still performs, I did ask the Vet and he assured me he had taken everything, however I still have spayed female dog and spayed female cat who continue to go into heat. It could be the Vets fault, and I did do some research on the issue and found that in some cases it does happen.
> 
> My only option would be to have exploratory surgery done to find the problems but that could end up with just as bad of results as them getting ill and I'm just not willing to risk that.


Only thing i can think of is when some tissue is left behind the cat still gets some hormone but this shouldnt last long.

Its normal for neutered male to still mate,different for the girl though as she has to be willing and only a calling girl is usually willing.I had a pregnant girl once mind she was willing to mate..its the hormones


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Perhaps you could elaborate. No uterus = no pyo as far as I'm aware but as always I'm interested in anything new.
> 
> I don't quite understand why they still go into heat or why the neutered male still performs


Still not getting it I'm afraid - how can a cat without a uterus suffer from pyometra?



> Only thing i can think of is when some tissue is left behind the cat still gets some hormone but this shouldnt last long


This can happen - still don't see any connection with pyo.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Out of interest, what is your plan if your cat(s) ever need serious treatment? If you don't have a vet who can perform a simple, planned, routine procedure safely then you don't have one who could be trusted for an emergency. That's a scary position to be in.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> I'm not sure of the scientific reason why, but I would guess that smaller litters for older Mum's is just natures way
> You say your vet is very good, however I would disagree if he is unable to perform the simplest of spay operations properly. I have never heard of a female cat continuing to go into heat once spayed


Well the small litter is a blessing 

Apparently it isn't totally unheard of for cats to continue going into heat after spaying. The link below gives some more information on the why.

Female Cat in Heat - signs, symptoms and behavioral changes of feline estrus.

The Vet is good as all animals he operated on lived, healed properly, and there were no kittens or puppies from the spayed animals. Trust me, from stories I've heard, I'm happy.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Zhari....is your OH a trained vet nurse?
if not, then I am not surprised he was 'traumatised' by assisting in the neutering of your other vets, and reluctant to put his special kitty through an operation.
I am very very much in favour of neutering....but when it has come to the day of the operation for each of my cats (and even my fosters! ) I have been a gibbering wreck wishing I could somehow pull out and stop them having to go under the knife. And that reaction is just from having to drop them off for the vet to do the job!
If I then had to witness the whole thing I think I would be terrified, even though I know really that it is a pretty routine and safe procedure when carried out by a competent vet.
Maybe _you_ could do some local research and think of taking the female cat to another good vet, without you OH having to actually assist in the surgery!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Paddypaws said:


> Zhari....is your OH a trained vet nurse?
> if not, then I am not surprised he was 'traumatised' by assisting in the neutering of your other vets, and reluctant to put his special kitty through an operation.
> *I am very very much in favour of neutering....but when it has come to the day of the operation for each of my cats (and even my fosters! ) I have been a gibbering wreck wishing I could somehow pull out and stop them having to go under the knife. And that reaction is just from having to drop them off for the vet to do the job!*
> If I then had to witness the whole thing I think I would be terrified, even though I know really that it is a pretty routine and safe procedure when carried out by a competent vet.
> Maybe _you_ could do some local research and think of taking the female cat to another good vet, without you OH having to actually assist in the surgery!


I have to admit I'm the same! All of my dogs and cats are neutered, and every single time I worry myself sick - just because I know that every single operation that requires a general anaesthetic carries a risk, no matter how 'routine' they are, how healthy the animal is, and how competent the vet. No-one can ever predict if an animal (or person) will have a completely unexpected reaction. It's part of life.

But - I know that neutering is better and kinder in the long run, and so I do it.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

havoc said:


> Out of interest, what is your plan if your cat(s) ever need serious treatment? If you don't have a vet who can perform a simple, planned, routine procedure safely then you don't have one who could be trusted for an emergency. That's a scary position to be in.


About the same as for me if I ever need serious treatment. Take them to the Doctor and pray for the best. And speaking of scary positions to be in, have you been watching the news ????? You know I could leave Egypt but that would mean turning my dogs and cats out into the street so I refuse to do that, so give me a bit of a break on not spaying Daisy.

If the future for her holds an illness, I will be sorry, but frankly my decision to take her in when her last expat family deserted her, did save her life and gave her a much better life in spite of my obvious uncaring attitude about getting her spayed.

Sometimes looking at the bigger picture is necessary to live with the flaws in the painting.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Litter size usually decreases in older females, plus if she is only mated once or twice a smaller litter tends to result. And even if the male had been fixed immediately he could have got the female pregnant if she called almost straight away, which she might well have due to his being in the house.

Reasons to spay:

avoid pyometra, a potentially fatal infection of the uterus
reduce the risk of breast cancer. Each call increases it slightly.
avoid the risks of a pregnancy with a complicated delivery where a c-section is needed
avoid the risks of getting a sexually transmitted disease

There are more, these are the most important ones. You have a few weeks to try to convince your husband that being unspayed is a far bigger risk for her than spaying, and of course to find a good vet. If you are in or near Luxor contact ACE who hopefully will be able to point you at a good vet. I can't imagine there isn't a single vet in Cairo, Alexandria, Giza or any of the other large cities & towns who is incapable of a trauma-free spaying.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zhari said:


> *Did you miss the sentence that says Hubby refuses to agree to it?
> 
> You know I hesitated posting the question here cause I figured the criticism & judgement would come which is why I added the explanation.* I think it's really sad that people can't ask a question without having to defend themselves and decisions.


Zhari - please don't be oversensitive. It's very easy to miss parts of a detailed post, and it was a genuinely meant query. Here in the UK we have a different attitude to the neutering of pets, and often people become very protective of the animals, just because there are so many unethical people here who allow their pets to breed indiscriminately, or who breed them carelessly just to cash in on the kittens/puppies.

It's obvious that you aren't one of these people and that you love your cats very much and are trying to do your best for them. This was an unfortunate accidental pregnancy: you seem to be lucky with a healthy mother cat and two healthy kittens - that shows that she was well-cared for during her pregnancy and I'm sure that people appreciate that. I hope that your little girl and her babies do very well.

I notice that you've had daddy cat neutered now, which is excellent - but have you wondered what might happen if a stray tomcat managed to get into your home, or (God forbid) your little girl ever got out? She would be at serious risk.

The decision is yours, obviously - only you know what you can cope with regarding your cat and any risks she might be in during surgery. Whatever you decide, I wish you and your pets well. (And I'd still love to see a picture when your kittens are older).


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

Paddypaws said:


> Zhari....is your OH a trained vet nurse?
> if not, then I am not surprised he was 'traumatised' by assisting in the neutering of your other vets, and reluctant to put his special kitty through an operation.
> I am very very much in favour of neutering....but when it has come to the day of the operation for each of my cats (and even my fosters! ) I have been a gibbering wreck wishing I could somehow pull out and stop them having to go under the knife. And that reaction is just from having to drop them off for the vet to do the job!
> If I then had to witness the whole thing I think I would be terrified, even though I know really that it is a pretty routine and safe procedure when carried out by a competent vet.
> Maybe _you_ could do some local research and think of taking the female cat to another good vet, without you OH having to actually assist in the surgery!


Oh thank you for that bit of understanding, I'm feeling rather defensive now and regretting even posting the question.

There are hospitals here that you can take your pet too, but I've heard mixed stories on quality and care and results. So although it's not perfect, the Vet we use has a good reputation and as I've stated, our animals did well with the actual surgery, and other friends we've recommended him too have been very happy with his skills compared to other Vets they've tried.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Re: the 'coming into heat after neutering' queries - I have heard that if all of the uterine tissue isn't removed from a female animal - dog, cat, whatever - that she will still have a tendency to undergo hormonal changes hat periodically make her keen to mate and attractive to males.

I don't know how true this is. Perhsps vets in other countries feel that it is best for the animal's health not to take all of this tissue away, in the same way as if a woman needs an early hysterectomy, doctors will try to leave the ovaries as it prevents/reduces the risk of osteoporosis and other illnesses (and also stops her from growing a beard and losing breast tissue, to put it crudely). If they can't do this, then women need hormone therapy.

Perhaps there is a school of thought that believes it is equally important to do this for female animals that are neutered.

I don't know, as I said - I'm just speculating here.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Zhari - please don't be oversensitive. It's very easy to miss parts of a detailed post, and it was a genuinely meant query. Here in the UK we have a different attitude to the neutering of pets, and often people become very protective of the animals, just because there are so many unethical people here who allow their pets to breed indiscriminately, or who breed them carelessly just to cash in on the kittens/puppies.
> 
> It's obvious that you aren't one of these people and that you love your cats very much and are trying to do your best for them. This was an unfortunate accidental pregnancy: you seem to be lucky with a healthy mother cat and two healthy kittens - that shows that she was well-cared for during her pregnancy and I'm sure that people appreciate that. I hope that your little girl and her babies do very well.
> 
> ...


Thank you, you are probably right, I am a bit sensitive, likely because in reality I believe in spaying and neutering, so I feel guilty that Daisy isn't done. But honestly, I did have to bridge culture, some religious arguments against it for the other pets, and of course the medical care worries. And with Daisy, I just wasn't able to convince him.

Fortunately Daisy isn't the running outside type, and between Tootous and the dogs, other tomcats know to stay away. Likely why she stayed barren for the last 5 years  Inshallah either hubby will change his mind or we'll be able to protect her. It was really our fault for allowing Snowy in.

On a happier note, I already have 5 homes for 2 kittens  Mother and babies are doing fine.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zhari said:


> Thank you, you are probably right, I am a bit sensitive, likely because in reality I believe in spaying and neutering, so I feel guilty that Daisy isn't done. But honestly, I did have to bridge culture, some religious arguments against it for the other pets, and of course the medical care worries. And with Daisy, I just wasn't able to convince him.
> Appreciated - sometimes people are quick off the mark. They don't mean to be unkind, they just worry about the animals.
> 
> Fortunately Daisy isn't the running outside type, and between Tootous and the dogs, other tomcats know to stay away. Likely why she stayed barren for the last 5 years  Inshallah either hubby will change his mind or we'll be able to protect her.* It was really our fault for allowing Snowy in. *
> ...


Never apologise for doing a good deed.


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## Zhari (Dec 27, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> No, both settled in Israel but my eldest daughter did some volunteer work for ESMA whilst in Egypt. I'm sure if you give them a call they will be able to give you contact details for vets who spay/neuter in the "usual" fashion.


ESMA doesn't have any Vet recommendations for where I live and Cairo is a LONG way away  But thanks 

Vet care could be different in Israel, depending on if a lot of Israelis commonly have pets whom they spay/neuter.

Since your daughter has been in both countries, I'd be interested in her opinion of animal care, if it's different in Egypt and Israel.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lostbear said:


> Re: the 'coming into heat after neutering' queries - I have heard that if all of the uterine tissue isn't removed from a female animal - dog, cat, whatever - that she will still have a tendency to undergo hormonal changes hat periodically make her keen to mate and attractive to males.
> 
> I don't know how true this is. Perhsps vets in other countries feel that it is best for the animal's health not to take all of this tissue away, in the same way as if a woman needs an early hysterectomy, doctors will try to leave the ovaries as it prevents/reduces the risk of osteoporosis and other illnesses (and also stops her from growing a beard and losing breast tissue, to put it crudely). If they can't do this, then women need hormone therapy.
> 
> ...


i myself had a girl *act* like in call after she was spayed,its stopped happening now though.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Zhari said:


> ESMA doesn't have any Vet recommendations for <snip>


So where in Egypt are you? Presumable somewhere south of Cairo as it's a long thin country.

PS ESMA seem to do similar work in Giza to ACE in Luxor.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Perhaps they are just tying the tubes of females and vasectomising boys rather than traditional neuters.

I've had girls have litters of 6, 1, 5. And know older girls (older than 5) having litters of 10. Single or a few matings can also produce normal sized litters or 6 kittens. Lots of variables.

Small litters of 1 or 2 kittens never work for my girls, they come into heat a few days later and that's it. So kittens are moved to another girl to raise.



we love bsh's said:


> i myself had a girl *act* like in call after she was spayed,its stopped happening now though.


Doesn't seem uncommon for retired to girls to have one last hurrah, confuses a lot of breeders :lol:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

There will be some tissue left.

As for the rest of it, people here are often reluctant to accept that things in many parts of the world are very very different to the way they are in the West.

Seven is not too old. I am mystified about the fact that your cat has avoided pyo all these years but don't worry about that now. However obviously you do need to consider the future.

Liz


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