# To those who are considering having "just one litter"



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Here's my story. I want you to remember this when you consider allowing Fluffy to have just one litter to settle her down.

9 weeks ago, my female Persian was mated with a male of the same breed. This was a planned mating, so both cats were health tested, and clear of all associated diseases The mating was performed in a controlled environment which was just as well for both cats as she was very frightened, and subsequently quite stroppy afterwards. This control avoided injury to the cats. Please note that Fluffy will be bitten hard by the tom on mating. His little man bits are barbed, so it goes in Ok, but on the way out, it will literally tear her inside. This causes her to attempt to do serious injury to the boy due to the pain.

The pregnancy progressed as planned. The female began to get bigger. I was well organised. I had my kittening kit ready. I'd bought in sterilisers just on the off chance that one kitten might need a little supplementary syringe feeding, just to keep it in line with its siblings. I had booked some time off work so that I could help mum look after her kittens while she was getting used to being a mother. I'd ordered in the last minute things for supporting weak kittens which were due to arrive by day 61 of the pregnancy, in loads of time for day 65, even day 63 if she went early. As I say, it was a planned mating.

Cats normally birth their kittens on day 65 post mating. If kittens are born before day 59, they are normally guaranteed not to survive. On day 60, I headed off to work as normal, only to receive a frantic phone call from home, from my vets and from my experienced vet nurse friend. Unfortunately, my girl had commenced labour on day 60.

As she was a first time mum, just as Fluffy will be, she was confused and terrified during the birth. She did not bite umbilical chords or break the sacks the kittens came in. She ran away and tried to hide from the pain. It took two people to deliver each kitten, andmany were born breach, i.e legs first. This is very painful for mum. One person had to guide the kittens out, and the other had to scruff the female and physically hold her in place to prevent her bolting. Throughout, the cat screamed, cried, spat, pleaded to be let go.

My girl had 9 kittens. All were born alive and all were extremely premature. 5 of those 9 died in the hands of people desperately trying to resussitate them and improve the quality of the shallow, gasping breaths. Kittens were rubbed for up to 40 minutes as those helping could not bear to give up. Their deaths were not peaceful.

Mum then stopped contracting, but we could still feel something in there. There followed an urgent call to the vet, then an injection of calcium, and two much more painful injections of Oxytosin to try and get contractions going again. Nothing came out, and we were unsure whether the lump was uterus or another kitten. After all she'd been through, she had to endure the vet feeling inside for a kitten (also very painful), then had to go off to the surgery for scans and the possibility of a C section on top of everything else. Luckily, we were just feeling uterus.

4 out of the 9 kittens were viable, but those were very weak. There followed a night and a day of attempting, and failing, to encourage kittens to latch onto mum and suckle from her. I got 20 minutes sleep the first night. Mum, still confused, anxious and upset, would throw her whole body down on the kittens whenever they made a noise, in a misguided attempt to protect and hush them. This resulted in no deaths only because I sat up with her all night, then had friends come and watch her long enough for me to pop out for a loo break.

One of the smallest kittens went rapidly down hill this morning, and had to be taken to the vets mainly for mercy's sake. He screamed solidly for 4 hours, with every breath a scream. I took him to help him sleep peacefully, but the vet managed to keep him going and make him comfortable again. One of his smaller brothers is so weak that he can't suck from a syringe properly. Kittens of this breed should have a birth weight of around 100G each. My smallest is 47 grams, and the biggest 57.

In the last 3 days, I have had 5 kittens die. I have had to watch as another two fight hard for life but continue to lose the battle. I have had to witness a calm, placid cat screaming and crying with pain, then have had to hold her still to give the babies a chance at suckling. All are too weak to latch, so I am now hand feeding 4 kittens, all of whom are slow to drink. I have had time to eat 1 half portion of chips, 1 burger and 1 packet of crisps since Thursday lunch time. I have spent 7 hours in the company of a vet trying to sort mum out and save kittens. I don't know how much money I have spent with said vet as I have been afraid to ask. I have slept exactly 45 minutes since Thursday. I haven't had time to shower or change my clothes. And yet, I am still expected to be there on the hour every two hours, night or day, to bottle feed these little premmies who now depend entirely on me. I am so tired, upset and stressed that I have developed a horrendous case of stress gastroenteritis which is also draining me, so even if I wanted to eat more, I couldn't.

When you think how lovely a little Fluffy litter would be, how nice it will be to let her be a mother, please spare a thought for my girl, and ask yourself if you want her to go through losing 5 babies and struggling to cope with the rest. Ask yourself if you could take the month off work that I will now have to take to accommodate the hand feeding. Could you fit 2 hourly feeds around your home schedule? Or would you have to sit back and watch as the rest of them die too? Please, folks, think about it all before you so casually open your back door.

For those who are interested, I will update as and when, but as said, I will not be on here often for obvious reasons. Please keep fingers crossed for these tinies who are still way too small to be outside their mummy.

I will continue to add to this post as things progress so that first time users to the forum can understand the full saga without trauling through the thread.

10th August: We lost Mr Squeaky this morning. He was the smallest of the bunch, weighing in at only 47G at birth. He was the one who screamed for 4 hrs solid yesterday, the one that fought hard at the vets to keep going. He went between the 5 and 7 AM feeds this morning with a full tummy, warm and cuddled with his brothers and a little toy dog (mum wasn't with them).

Another baby looks slow this morning, the next smallest in the litter. I really hope 3 don't become 2.

Now two of the kittens have developed lumps in their tummies, and the smallest one isn't feeding so well. The vet thinks it's constipation. I'm not so sure as they pooed well this morning. Yet again, it's a case of wait and see.

11th August: Little tiny's lumpy belly has gone down after a night of 2 hourly feeds, massage, stimulation, diluted formula and a change of milk. His brother's has gone up, but now that we know it's collick and a little constipation due to immature digestive systems and full strength formula, we will hopefully be able to sort it out.

It's tempting to take a picture of mum and babies to let people see how bad it is. Babies are tiny and scrawny. Mum is filthy after the post-partum bleeding etc. She's not emotionally or physically ready for the bath, nor can I bath her as the kittens find her by smell. Her front end is caked in NutriPlus gel which sets like tar in the furr, as this is mostly all she wants to eat at the moment. She is a mess, but again, I have to balance what's best for her and the kittens against my own wants.

The previously healthy and problem free kitten is now refusing to feed today, so it looks like there'll be fun and games ahead with him too.

The kittens now all have diarrhoea. Wonderful. So now we risk dehydration and poor weight gains all over again. This really isn't for the faint-hearted...

12th August: So, the babies are officially 0 days old today! This should have been their birth day, so I can now expect them to begin to develop at the normal rate and get closer to functioning as normal kittens do! They are still incredibly small, with the largest at 74G and the smallest at 67G, not even close to normal birth weights. In 5 days, where they should have gained 50G as normal kittens would, the maximum weight gain of all of them has been 20G, not even half of what it should be.

The two hourly feeds continue, and the diarrhoea is just beginning to subside. However, the tiniest kitten is hypothermic this morning after mum messed up. Being an attentive mum, she cleaned them all over, nice and thoroughly... Then she left them. Even though they are on a heatpad constantly, and Vetbed for warmth, the heatpad is designed to never get above body temperature, so it won't scald them. Unfortunately, this is not enough to keep a sopping wet tiny kitten warm enough. We now have a second heat pad in the bed with them and lots of padding on top to hold the heat in. Mum, who is still keen to lick and lick, has been banned from them for a few hours to allow them to warm up. She's upset and the little one is needing glucose at 10 minute intervals to ensure he keeps his strength. You can't feed them when they are chilled as the digestive system stops functioning and regurgitation and aspiration of any milk into the lungs is a very real possibility. So instead, he gets a drop of glucose on his gums every 10 minutes until he's warm again. It's going to be another long day.

Tiniest kitten is now at the vets with dehydration. He was limp and barely responsive when I took him in, so the outcome's unlikely to be good. I don't know how much more of this I can take without cracking. This is soul destroying.

Little tiny kitten is now gone, and I'm completely in bits. They warmed him, hydrated him, gave him fluids under the skin, fed him, and still he died. I feel like everything I do for these kittens is wrong somehow, and that surely there must be something else I can do.

It hurts terribly to continue to write these updates, but I hope and pray that it will save even one other person from going through this hell. I don't know if I will ever have the nerve to breed again after this. I feel so helpless and inadequate to the task before me.

The only silver lining is that Gabby is not grieving, well, not yet anyway.

It turns out that the kittens most likely died from an infection, a completely opportunistic bug which is prevalent everywhere and only takes advantage when a cat is in a weakened state. The vet was able to determine this after "examining" (I don't want to think about it), the most recently dead baby. As these babies got no colostrum through not latching on when born, they have no immune systems to help fight infection. I am beside myself. I am a clean freak. My hygiene, especially when it comes to kittens, is top notch. They always have new or boil washed bedding that has been stored in fully sealed boxes or bags after washing. I use surgical scrub on my hands before and after I touch them. They are kept in isolation from all other cats other than mum (and in this case, the girl I was trying to give them to when mum didn't seem too interested). All of the feeding utensils are kept immersed in sterilising solution before and after use. Milk is never warmed unnecessarily. Only the stuff to be fed is warmed, to avoid bacterial growth in the rest. And still, it wasn't enough. I am so angry and mad that they died because of a stupid little bug, because of something that wasn't picked up. And yes, I know it's not possible to pre-empt everything and predict the bacteria will get a hold, but it doesn't stop me being mad and feeling guilty and, well, all of it.

The worst news is that one of the remaining two kittens is showing minor signs that he has the infection too. They're now being given antibiotics, and although he was slow yesterday, the vet nurse who took them for care overnight tells me he's gaining weight. I'm too frightened to have them back as I feel I must be doing something wrong, so she's keeping them through the day for me too. But tonight, I have to have them, and I'm terrified.

14 August: Well, I was too frightened to have them back, and the vet nurse agrees that there is something putting them off when they're with me. Neither of us know what as she's watched what I'm doing and says it's no difference to what she's doing, but still, they don't feed. So she has agreed to have them until weaning.

I feel happy about this, but like a complete failure at the same time. I ache for Gabby who is now asking me where her kittens are. We had a small child in today, and every time someone said "baby" she started to cry, as I always ask my girls "shall we check on your babies?" when it's time for them to go back to the nest after being out.

I feel guilty for giving up and giving my babies to someone else, and even more guilty because I'm happy they're not here and are somewhere else with someone who knows what she's doing. I feel guilty for Gabby who doesn't understand what's happened to her kittens, and who goes through phases of not caring, then phases of asking and asking me to let her see them. I feel like such a horrid person because I'm trying to trick her into thinking they're still here. I have a very, very close bond with my cats, and when they specifically ask for something, I do my best to accommodate it. So she's really confused and sad and upset that I'm not listening to what she's asking me for, and giving in so she can cuddle her kittens.

Smallest kitten doesn't look good today. I've said that before haven't I? And the biggest one is showing signs that he's got the infection too. I'm wrung out. My emotions are all mixed up. I miss them dreadfully, and cry because they're not here, then cry because I dread the time when they have to come back and I'm responsible for them again, then cry some more because I want them back. I'm such a mess right now.

And what's worse is that Apache is looking a little thick around the middle. I'm fiercely hoping that it's only food belly, but I have a really horrid suspicion. I don't think I can go through this all again.

15 August: Devastated all over again. We now only have 1 kitten left. The 3rd one went an hour ago, in between the time it took the nurse to feed him at home and take him to work. He was sluggish, yes, but feeding Ok, so she hoped he'd just carry on and pull through. I can't believe we got him to 8 days before he went. This is now beyond horrendous.

16th August: The last kitten has gone this morning. He went the same way as the others. Fine one minute, gone within no more than a few hours. I can't even put words to how I'm feeling right now. I've just taken down my steriliser and set my syringes to dry, and my heart is aching because I know I won't need them again. I can't face taking down the kitten pen yet, and am afraid that, once gone, Gabby will realise her babies aren't coming back. I can't deal with her grieving on top of mine at the minute.

This has been 10 days of absolute hell. I would not recommend this to anyone.


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## Buttons1 (Sep 2, 2013)

Blimey, I can start breathing again now I've finished reading that. Realised at the end I was holding my breath is was so stressful.

Sending lots of love to you, your poor mum cat and her kittens xx


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

So sorry for what's happening with your girl and her babies.

I was thinking about this the other day actually, (my girl is spayed) but I was fussing her and thinking how cute her babies would be if she could have them, but then the more I thought about it the more I realised how scary it would be and what could happen to her, it could change her temperament wise, then how scary it would be worrying that something could go wrong, I wouldn't of been able to put her through it, I don't know how anyone can. 

I feel for everyone who breeds their purebred cats with all the health testing (im assuming cats are health tested for some things) and finding a good stud etc it must be scary and worrying and I definitely cant understand why anyone would let there moggies get pregnant rather than spaying


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

I was thinking about them earlier Carly and hoping they were getting on ok

Keeping my fingers crossed for the wee ones


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

So sorry to hear this Carly. With regards to the ones too little for the syringe, I have fed newborns better with a pipette or dropper. Hugs xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh, they're not too little for it. The suck just isn't so good. They're spending the night with a vet nurse who will tube them if needed, as I haven't the confidence after my last tubing experience. They're just too prem unfortunately.


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## Chillicat (Jan 14, 2012)

My fingers are crossed for you, your cat and the kittens.
That was a traumatic read so can only imagine what you have and will be going through.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Saying a little prayer that the little ones pull through.... I know you will do everything that is humanly possible but I know you have a long difficult journey ahead of you.

Your story is very frightening and a powerful reminder to everyone about what can go wrong.... Will be thinking of you and your babes x


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

Oh Carly I don't know what to say ......... how heart breaking for you and everyone involved.

Will keep everything crossed for the remaining little ones. Give Gabby a gentle kiss from us xx


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

I was almost in tears by the end of that post. How anyone can just casually open their back door and leave their little girl to the mercy of the local toms is beyond me.

This post is a very powerful reminder of what can and does go wrong. My Bree was only a year old when I got her out of rescue, where she'd already been for several months because her previous owner had allowed her to get pregnant at a very young age. All of the kittens were stillborn, probably because Bree was far too tiny to sustain to have a viable pregnancy. She later took ill and it was discovered that there was still a dead kitten inside her. And then the owner who had so casually allowed her to get pregnant dumped her and Jaime in rescue because she was moving. 

If you want a little bundle of fluff, there are plenty in rescues who need good homes. "Just one litter" just ain't worth it folks.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

RIP Tiny babies.

Carly if you need me I am happy to help you but cant do tomorrow.


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

If only everyone with animals could read that, the shocking reality of when things do go wrong, and it happens much more often than they realise 
Fingers and paws crossed that you and your little ones get through this tough time.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry things have turned out this way  RIP little ones and hoping the rest pull through xxx


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

So sorry for you and your poor cat, how is she now? it must have been very traumatic for her, hope the surviving babies come through


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## Bluefluffybirmans (Jun 9, 2014)

How awful, hope the little ones pull through x


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Awful Carly, fingers crossed for the little ones


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Carly, how awful for you. I'm so very sorry what a tragic situation. 

I'm a human prem baby nurse, the babies in my care come out so tiny but such fighters! Always astounds me that. 


I've everything crossed for these little guys xx


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

Paws and fingers crossed for your babies.


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh Carly, I'm so sorry for what you are going through 

RIP little ones xx


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

Heartbreaking 

I myself have stupidly & ignorantly though it'd be 'sweet' and so 'fun' to have a litter of kittens without thinking of what the cat goes through and all the time and love you have to put into it - at the time I was only 15 so very naive but if I'd read this then it'd have taught me a lot. Lucky we never have let our cats breed but this is a sad post


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## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

Oh Carly I am so sorry your little ones faded. I am sending positive vibes for the other babies and big hugs for you. You must be exhausted 

Viv xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

We lost Mr Squeaky this morning. He was the smallest of the bunch, weighing in at only 47G at birth. He was the one who screamed for 4 hrs solid yesterday, the one that fought hard at the vets to keep going. He went between the 5 and 7 AM feeds this morning with a fully tummy, warm and cuddled with his brothers and a little toy dog (mum wasn't with them).

Another baby looks slow this morning, the next smallest in the litter. I really hope 3 don't become 2.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh no Carly, I am so very very sorry a wee one has lost his fight 

You must be absolutely exhausted, both physically and mentally


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Oh Carly   I'm so so sorry  

Thinking of you, sending lots and lots of positive vibes for the 3 little ones and big hugs for you xxx


RIP little ones, run free at the bridge and look after each other xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm so exhausted I feel numb. I still can't eat properly, and am running to check them every few minutes just to make sure they're still all right. The vet nurse kept them to give critical care to the tinies last night to try and keep them going, but I still couldn't rest as I would start awake every 2 hours thinking I was late for a feed. It's awful.


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## Polly G (Apr 30, 2013)

Oh Carly you are obviously going through hell at the moment. I hope that the other babies will get stronger and also that mum is recovering from her ordeal.

Try to take care of yourself too x


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm sorry this has happened.  Kudos to you for doing what you are doing, and for sharing your experience so that people will be persuaded to spay rather than have 'just one litter' from their girls.

You need to get someone to take on feeding duty for a few feeds so you can get some rest. If I was closer I'd offer. 

Good luck with the rest, I hope they rally xxx


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

Sorry to hear this, hope the other two babies pull through xx


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

How is Gabby doing this morning, has she calmed down yet?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I am very sorry to read this. Thankyou for sharing it - it is an important story to tell. 

I hope that your little family pull through and you can get some joy (and rest) soon.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

sorry to hear this, I hope the others do ok x


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## stargren (Jul 24, 2014)

How sad for your cat to have to go through this pain and loss.This is why i had my cats done !


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Keeping everything crossed for you, mum and the little ones carly


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

OR, ever since Mr Squeaky has gone, she's much more settled with them. She's not trying to lie on them now, and is actively asking to go back into the nest where she wasn't before. She will lie peacefully with them all snuggled in by her tummy and let them keep warm while they sleep. She's cleaning them nicely and being a really good mum. Her milk is going though, and babies aren't even trying to latch on any more, so it's hand feeding all the way.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

carly87 said:


> OR, ever since Mr Squeaky has gone, she's much more settled with them. She's not trying to lie on them now, and is actively asking to go back into the nest where she wasn't before. She will lie peacefully with them all snuggled in by her tummy and let them keep warm while they sleep. She's cleaning them nicely and being a really good mum. Her milk is going though, and babies aren't even trying to latch on any more, so it's hand feeding all the way.


Poor Gabby, it's been so traumatic for her..... Glad to hear she is settling down with them but if they're not strong enough to latch on I guess there is nothing else you can do apart from hand feed, at least they have her for warmth and comfort


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

Sleep tight Mr Squeaky.


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## Sophiebee (Jul 9, 2013)

I had a few tears reading this, im sorry you and your babies are going through this carly, but its a powerful story to share and if even one person will spay their cat through reading it then thats something. Lots of good vibes for gabby and her babies from here.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Sorry to hear you are having such a tough time Carly. A very important message for people out there - thank you for sharing xx


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Very upsetting Carly to read about all that you, your cat and the kittens are going through at present.  Absolute nightmare, and enormously stressful and tiring for you. 

I agree with Shoshannah, you need someone to step in and help do some of the feeds, so you can get some rest. You will be no good to any of the kits if you collapse with exhaustion hun. Could you pay one of the vet nurses perhaps to do a home visit for an hour or so at some point each day? 

Thinking of you.


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

Sorry things have gone so badly wrong this time. Fingers crossed for the remaining babies and their mum. RIP for the lost babies x


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

CM, the vet nurse has offered to have them overnight until Wednesday, and as I was able to fool Gabby last night into thinking they were still here by popping a towel over the bed (I cuddle the babies up with a towel and an extra heat pad when mum isn't there as they chill so quickly). She thought her babies were just snuggling, so I'm going to take the nurse up on her offer.

Now two of the kittens have developed lumps in their tummies, and the smallest one isn't feeding so well. The vet thinks it's constipation. I'm not so sure as they pooed well this morning. Yet again, it's a case of wait and see.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Glad the vet nurse is taking the kits for a while. Many positive thoughts to you all hun. Waiting to hear good news.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

O Carly, I am so sorry for you and poor Gabby....
I followed all of this on Facebook, and I cannot begin to imagine how wasted and devastated you must be.

Big hugs to you, Gabby and the little ones, and having all fingers and paws crossed things will get better from here on.


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## mudgekin (Apr 21, 2014)

I was in tears by the end of that for you and your poor cat. I hope anyone who thinks it us all sweet and fluffy to have their girls have a litter reads that. It is heartbreaking.
Fingers crossed for you all.

Sleep tight babies, know you were loved.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

Oh Carly, this is such an incredible description and if this doesn't encourage spaying your cat nothing will. People see a picture of a mum and kits and think it's lovely and so simple. I am really sorry it's being such a traumatic and heartbreaking experience. I would never want to put a cat through pregnancy whether it was a good outcome or not. I wonder if the lumps on the kittens are hernias? I hope things improve and the remaining kittens and Mum will be OK and you too. RIP little kits.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Oh Carly, my heart goes out to you. I wept as I read the thread, and it brought back painful memories of difficult births and kitten losses that I have been through.

You were so looking forward to this litter and you must be feeling like its all turned to ashes. I wish I was closer to you or I'd pop round to help feed and give you a break.

My fingers are tightly crossed for the surviving three x


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

This is harrowing to read and I hope that your remaining 3 kittens pulls through! RIP little ones x


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you all for your well wishes. TM, I'd waited well over 2 years for this litter, and it was going to be the culmination of 5 years' work... Now I will have no keepers as we only have boys left, well, we have at the minute anyway. I'm just grateful I've got anything at all though.

Little tiny's lumpy belly has gone down after a night of 2 hourly feeds, massage, stimulation, diluted formula and a change of milk. His brother's has gone up, but now that we know it's collick and a little constipation due to immature digestive systems and full strength formula, we will hopefully be able to sort it out.

It's tempting to take a picture of mum and babies to let people see how bad it is. Babies are tiny and scrawny. Mum is filthy after the post-partum bleeding etc. She's not emotionally or physically ready for the bath, nor can I bath her as the kittens find her by smell. Her front end is caked in NutriPlus gel which sets like tar in the furr, as this is mostly all she wants to eat at the moment. She is a mess, but again, I have to balance what's best for her and the kittens against my own wants.

The previously healthy and problem free kitten is now refusing to feed today, so it looks like there'll be fun and games ahead with him too.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm really sorry this is happening to you, Carly, it must be exhausting and so very disappointing after such a long wait. You won't want to think about this now I am sure but you can try again, the fact that she had nine this time doesn't mean she will next time, and second births are usually easier, and if she goes to term all should be well.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh, I will try her again Liz, but it doesn't bare thinking about right now.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

i think you are so brave and selfless to write your post Carly i hope people take on board it's not allways happy tails and fluffy stories  , 

best wishes for mum and babies and you too girl keep your strength up xxx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

The kittens now all have diarrhoea. Wonderful. So now we risk dehydration and poor weight gains all over again. This really isn't for the faint-hearted...


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Everytime I check in it's with my heart in my mouth... This really has upset me so much.... Come on little ones, keep fighting x


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

fingers crossed for these little ones , they are in the best hands , so precious xx


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Everything crossed for your little ones Carly. It is so sad when things go so wrong especially when you have done everything right


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

What an absolutely heartbreaking saga. I do hope the remaining little ones make it. 

I think for all the heartache and pain, it would be a little worth it if someone reads this and decides not to let their cat breed. One important thing worth pointing out is that not all cats instantly make good mothers. Poor Gabby is a sweet affectionate laid back cat, but somehow, she just didn't get it right away. So, the nicest cat in the world might not make the best mum and they're not all longing to be mothers. 

Best of luck to you with your little brood and I hope you're able to get some rest and food in you soon. Remember you're no good to them if you collapse from exhaustion.


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

Oh my.. i'm actually sat in tears!! I've got everything crossed for your cat and kittens, I will be keeping watch for updates.

Thank you so much for sharing!! XXX


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

Fingers and paws crossed here for the little ones, they've had such a tough break in their short little lives xxx


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Still got everything crossed for these little ones Carly xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

So, the babies are officially 0 days old today! This should have been their birth day, so I can now expect them to begin to develop at the normal rate and get closer to functioning as normal kittens do! They are still incredibly small, with the largest at 74G and the smallest at 67G, not even close to normal birth weights. In 5 days, where they should have gained 50G as normal kittens would, the maximum weight gain of all of them has been 20G, not even half of what it should be.

The two hourly feeds continue, and the diarrhoea is just beginning to subside. However, the tiniest kitten is hypothermic this morning after mum messed up. Being an attentive mum, she cleaned them all over, nice and thoroughly... Then she left them. Even though they are on a heatpad constantly, and Vetbed for warmth, the heatpad is designed to never get above body temperature, so it won't scald them. Unfortunately, this is not enough to keep a sopping wet tiny kitten warm enough. We now have a second heat pad in the bed with them and lots of padding on top to hold the heat in. Mum, who is still keen to lick and lick, has been banned from them for a few hours to allow them to warm up. She's upset and the little one is needing glucose at 10 minute intervals to ensure he keeps his strength. You can't feed them when they are chilled as the digestive system stops functioning and regurgitation and aspiration of any milk into the lungs is a very real possibility. So instead, he gets a drop of glucose on his gums every 10 minutes until he's warm again. It's going to be another long day.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Carly, you are a trooper. I have no idea what it is like for you as a breeder but I do empathise with you and Gabby as a new mother. The first 5 days of me and my baby girl's life involved waking her (she never woke to feed!) every two hours and then me and midwives desperately trying to get colostrum into feeding syringes to feed her as she wouldn't latch on - the sleep deprivation resulted in me having hallucinations and extreme stress and confusion. She's currently wiggling, cooing and smiling at a dragon fly toy, all fine at 8 weeks.

What I can assure you is you will get through this whichever way the path takes you. Keep going and don't be afraid to ask or accept help. Gabby seemed like one chilled lady when I met her so I'm sure she will recover quickly. 

Is there anything you need for you, Gabby or kits quickly? PM me if I can help with anything. Xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you so much for your offer of help, but the emergency stuff we have in. I'm really just struggling.

Tiniest kitten is now at the vets with dehydration. He was limp and barely responsive when I took him in, so the outcome's unlikely to be good. I don't know how much more of this I can take without cracking. This is soul destroying.


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

Sorry to hear there's more bad news, fingers crossed the little man pulls through xxx


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

best wishes for the wee man Carly xxx


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I would second everything Carly has said. Having a litter can be totally traumatic and so many things can go wrong. This morning one of my own girls has given birth at 58 days  She showed no signs of having a premature birth and up until now everything has been perfectly normal and calm. But now has 6 tiny kittens fighting for survival. At the moment they are doing ok and have at least latched on but know it is a waiting and watch hour by hour with fingers crossed. As Carly said the strain is unbelievable and mentally is exhausting. xx

I really hope Carly that your babies pull through, its so sad and wishing you all the best x


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

So so sorry to be reading this terribly sad thread Carly. Soul destroying indeed. Really praying the little ones left can pull through. xx


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

I dread reading this thread 

Nothing I say will make this any easier, I just know how you must be struggling, and the pain you must be feeling. My heart really does go out to you.

I'm praying that the little ones left can fight and pull through. 

Stay strong xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Little tiny kitten is now gone, and I'm completely in bits. They warmed him, hydrated him, gave him fluids under the skin, fed him, and still he died. I feel like everything I do for these kittens is wrong somehow, and that surely there must be something else I can do.

It hurts terribly to continue to write these updates, but I hope and pray that it will save even one other person from going through this hell. I don't know if I will ever have the nerve to breed again after this. I feel so helpless and inadequate to the task before me.

The only silver lining is that Gabby is not grieving, well, not yet anyway.


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

so so sorry Carly , you are doing everything you possibly can , rest in peace little one to fragile for this world, you are so brave Carly , we cherish every minute with our loved ones life can be so very cruel, my heart breaks for you, Gabby will help you through this awful time xxx


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

Keeping my fingers crossed that things will start to get better.So sorry you lost so many kittens


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Little tiny kitten is now gone, and I'm completely in bits. They warmed him, hydrated him, gave him fluids under the skin, fed him, and still he died. I feel like everything I do for these kittens is wrong somehow, and that surely there must be something else I can do.
> 
> It hurts terribly to continue to write these updates, but I hope and pray that it will save even one other person from going through this hell. I don't know if I will ever have the nerve to breed again after this. I feel so helpless and inadequate to the task before me.
> 
> The only silver lining is that Gabby is not grieving, well, not yet anyway.


Oh Carly I'm so sorry.

I'm sure you are doing everything you possibly can, you have saved babies before so if anyone stood a chance of helping them, then it was you. These babies were just too small to survive.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Carly, I know how much it hurts, that feeling of no matter what you do it isn't enough but you have done everything possible for these tiny lives, nothing you have done was wrong. My heart goes out to you. Make no decisions while you are hurting, grieve for your lost ones and take time to recover. I hope that the two remaining little ones will thrive and that Gabby will be loving mum to them but not all of our hopes or wishes come true and if these do not, then I wish you the strength to carry on.
My thoughts are with you. Hugs xx


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

Rest in peace little one.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Carly you are doing nothing wrong, you are an excellent breeder always there with your support and advice.Remember I told you I thought you'd be breeding for 25 years! 

These little ones were just too tiny. I have everything crossed for the remaining babies. Come on boys xx


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Little tiny kitten is now gone, and I'm completely in bits. They warmed him, hydrated him, gave him fluids under the skin, fed him, and still he died. I feel like everything I do for these kittens is wrong somehow, and that surely there must be something else I can do.
> 
> It hurts terribly to continue to write these updates, but I hope and pray that it will save even one other person from going through this hell. I don't know if I will ever have the nerve to breed again after this. I feel so helpless and inadequate to the task before me.
> 
> The only silver lining is that Gabby is not grieving, well, not yet anyway.


Oh, Carly - it's not your fault. It's honestly _not_. Sometimes all the preparation and all the care in the world isn't enough, and even though we have to accept the pain, we also, in time, have to come to accept that there is no blame.

And that's the hardest thing of all, as our wounded soul screams out that there must be something, someone that is responsible for all this heartache. That somehow, impossibly, tragedy could have been prevented - even though our head tells us that isn't the case. And so we are tempted to turn the bitter knife of blame on ourselves, even though there is no cause, and it is a powerful temptation indeed. But is is also a lie, a massive lie...

*hugs*


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

So sorry to hear the tiny kitten has gone to the bridge, desperately hoping, as I'm sure we all are, that the others pull through xxx


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Oh Carly, my heart goes out to you, it truly does. You've done no wrong, I'm no breeder but know you are doing right, please don't blame yourself. 

Sending you bigs hugs and thinking of you xxx


RIP little angel xx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

What you've done is give these babies a chance they wouldn't have had without you. It hurts like hell when it doesn't work I know. There isn't a thing any of us can say which will take that hurt away and stop you questioning yourself, that's the way us breeders are and nothing can change it. Something like this rocks you to the core and shreds your confidence. 

You aren't doing anything wrong and there isn't a single soul on here who isn't behind you every step of the way.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

So very very sorry Carly :-( thinking of you xxx


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

My heart truly goes out to you. It's the worst feeling in the world , no-one can know your pain and stress until it has happened to them 

I lost two one still born and one we had to have put to sleep at a day old .. It broke my heart and the extra stress of a big litter with very low weights I was living in a different world, I cried I Screamed .. Everyday I dreaded going into see them deep breath were taken at the door .. 

Lucky for us they gained weight gramm by gramm , my hard work and mums affection we pull through But I couldn't have done it without the support of my breeder friend and my Hubby I was a mess .. 

We now have 6 kittens over a 1kg at 9 weeks. But I still worry about them ... My little miracles they will always have a very special place in my heart 

Sending healing vibes and strength your way Carly and for those of you who thinks its a bed of roses think again


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## QueenMoo (Aug 3, 2014)

So so sorry Carly 
rest in peace little one


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## Quboid (Sep 3, 2012)

This is very difficult to read and you have my utmost sympathy. Feeling helpless is surely natural but strength is to still keep trying and you are obviously have been and are still doing your best to give these kittens and their mother every chance; it just wasn't to be.

x


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

So sorry xxxx 

Desperately hoping for the remaining babies.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It turns out that the kittens most likely died from an infection, a completely opportunistic bug which is prevalent everywhere and only takes advantage when a cat is in a weakened state. The vet was able to determine this after "examining" (I don't want to think about it), the most recently dead baby. As these babies got no colostrum through not latching on when born, they have no immune systems to help fight infection. I am beside myself. I am a clean freak. My hygiene, especially when it comes to kittens, is top notch. They always have new or boil washed bedding that has been stored in fully sealed boxes or bags after washing. I use surgical scrub on my hands before and after I touch them. They are kept in isolation from all other cats other than mum (and in this case, the girl I was trying to give them to when mum didn't seem too interested). All of the feeding utensils are kept immersed in sterilising solution before and after use. Milk is never warmed unnecessarily. Only the stuff to be fed is warmed, to avoid bacterial growth in the rest. And still, it wasn't enough. I am so angry and mad that they died because of a stupid little bug, because of something that wasn't picked up. And yes, I know it's not possible to pre-empt everything and predict the bacteria will get a hold, but it doesn't stop me being mad and feeling guilty and, well, all of it.

The worst news is that one of the remaining two kittens is showing minor signs that he has the infection too. They're now being given antibiotics, and although he was slow yesterday, the vet nurse who took them for care overnight tells me he's gaining weight. I'm too frightened to have them back as I feel I must be doing something wrong, so she's keeping them through the day for me too. But tonight, I have to have them, and I'm terrified.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Carly I really really feel for you- as someone who suffers with anxiety i understand your terror - you know it is not your fault and you know you can do as good a job if not better than the vet nurse but regardless your head cannot listen to logic or reason . When I am frightened by the prospect of something I remember a line from a book - fear cuts deeper than the sword - it helps me remember how debilitating fear can be. Be kind to yourself you have been through a huge ordeal, is there as anyone nearby who can support you tonight?


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

No matter how clean you are, unless you live in a bubble, bacteria will get in. You can't blame yourself. Bacteria exist for a reason, and cats have large litters for a reason. Even with the best of intentions and practices, bad things sometimes happen and it's not at all your fault. It's heartbreaking I know, but you've done absolutely everything to prevent this. Unfortunately, they just came too early to be safe from the perils of everyday life. I hope the two remaining kittens survive, but at least Gabby is doing well. And her next litter will hopefully wait until it's fully baked to arrive.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sadly not. It's me on my lonesome. I just hope they continue to gain weight.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Wish I wasn't so far away  when I was single parent with small baby with terrible gastroenteritis I used the radio talk shows at night just to keep my mind occupied-doesn't help much I know


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

My heart goes out to you Carly - so very sorry xx


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

So sorry to hear this. Am thinking of you. It is so hard when something goes wrong and we all look for answers and blame ourselves. But sometimes there is just nothing else we can do


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

So very sad and sorry to read this thread but I hugely admire the courage and strength you've had to write it. 

To whoever monitors the forum pages - please can this be a sticky (is that the correct terminology?) - so that perhaps some good can come from such a harrowing experience?

I really do hope Mum recovers quickly and completely from the trauma.

And of course I pray that the kittens left make it and can grow into healthy, strong cats

Thinking of you Carly - I hold you in the highest esteem.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

How you doing Carly? How's Gabby and the babies? 

I hope all is ok, you are still in my thoughts xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

We still have 2, but I'm now convinced I'm the problem. They feed and toilet well with the vet nurse, and gain weight nicely. When they come back to me, they're sluggish, don't want a feed and hardly toilet. I don't know what I'm doing wrong and I'm now terrified that it's me who's killing them. I don't know what to do as vet nurse says I'm doing everything right, but it's more than coincidence now.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Could they be picking up on your exhaustion and stress Carly? The vet nurse is probably naturally more relaxed......they are your babes so understandably mean everything to you!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

So pleased to hear that your two little ones are still with us. I am sure you are doing nothing wrong, even the vet nurse is happy that you aren't doing anything wrong - you have just lost confidence in yourself and the loss of your other tinies was not your fault.


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

carly87 said:


> We still have 2, but I'm now convinced I'm the problem. They feed and toilet well with the vet nurse, and gain weight nicely. When they come back to me, they're sluggish, don't want a feed and hardly toilet. I don't know what I'm doing wrong and I'm now terrified that it's me who's killing them. I don't know what to do as vet nurse says I'm doing everything right, but it's more than coincidence now.


Carly how many kittens have you raised? You know exactly what to do, and I'm 100% certain you aren't doing anything wrong! You certainly are not killing them!

I think the fact that you have lost so many has pushed you to breaking point and you are not thinking straight, but please for your own sanity, stop blaming yourself.

Think back to Apache, you KNOW what you are doing. I know it's hard, you have been through your worst nightmare, but take a step back and do the job you are so very good at.

I know you can do this xx


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Carly, I wonder what the nurse is comparing them with (they only have to look after them for a day/night) - perhaps they are actually just the same at the vets as they are with you at home and it's the fact that you are more aware off their needs and behaviour that you worry.

From what I've heard they are in the best hands possible.


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## mudgekin (Apr 21, 2014)

Carly, you are not killing your kittens, you are raising them better than anyone could. you are exhausted and god only knows how stressed you are. Through all this, your strength and love shine through


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Carly, of course you are not the problem and you are not killing them. Please don't think thoughts like this, the only thing you are guilty of is doing the right thing and, loving and caring for these babies. 

I'm so pleased to hear your 2 babies are still with us. 

Take care of yourself too Carly xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Well, I was too frightened to have them back, and the vet nurse agrees that there is something putting them off when they're with me. Neither of us know what as she's watched what I'm doing and says it's no difference to what she's doing, but still, they don't feed. So she has agreed to have them until weaning.

I feel happy about this, but like a complete failure at the same time. I ache for Gabby who is now asking me where her kittens are. We had a small child in today, and every time someone said "baby" she started to cry, as I always ask my girls "shall we check on your babies?" when it's time for them to go back to the nest after being out.

I feel guilty for giving up and giving my babies to someone else, and even more guilty because I'm happy they're not here and are somewhere else with someone who knows what she's doing. I feel guilty for Gabby who doesn't understand what's happened to her kittens, and who goes through phases of not caring, then phases of asking and asking me to let her see them. I feel like such a horrid person because I'm trying to trick her into thinking they're still here. I have a very, very close bond with my cats, and when they specifically ask for something, I do my best to accommodate it. So she's really confused and sad and upset that I'm not listening to what she's asking me for, and giving in so she can cuddle her kittens.

Smallest kitten doesn't look good today. I've said that before haven't I? And the biggest one is showing signs that he's got the infection too. I'm wrung out. My emotions are all mixed up. I miss them dreadfully, and cry because they're not here, then cry because I dread the time when they have to come back and I'm responsible for them again, then cry some more because I want them back. I'm such a mess right now.

And what's worse is that Apache is looking a little thick around the middle. I'm fiercely hoping that it's only food belly, but I have a really horrid suspicion. I don't think I can go through this all again.


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

Carly you are not a failure, please stop punishing yourself.

A break from them might do you some good, you have been through so much you probably have nothing left to give at the moment. Please don't feel guilty about that.

Gabby will be fine, she has you.

As for Apache, if it's what you think, then you will cope. You are stronger than you think young lady!!

((Big Hugs)) and a big kiss from your little Man xx


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

You are NOT a failure. Whatever the reason at least they seem to be doing better and that's what's most important. At least you now have the time you need to look after Apache and Gabby. Please stay strong. Look after yourself and you will be in a better place to look after your babies and the wee ones when they do come back.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Oh Carly, what a heartbreaking post... Don't let it break you lovely, you will come through this xx


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Oh Carly, you will get through this and so will these babies!! You are doing nothing wrong accept perhaps them picking up on your stress as the others have said. 

To be honest I think that Apache expecting too is the best thing to happen, as you can get right back on that horse! You are an amazing breeder and none of this is your fault xx


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

So sorry, really do not know what to say to make you feel better, that others haven't already said. 

Big hugs. xxx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Devastated all over again. We now only have 1 kitten left. The 3rd one went an hour ago, in between the time it took the nurse to feed him at home and take him to work. He was sluggish, yes, but feeding Ok, so she hoped he'd just carry on and pull through. I can't believe we got him to 8 days before he went. This is now beyond horrendous.


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

So sorry to hear this, sleep tight little boy x


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## Polly G (Apr 30, 2013)

Oh Carly this is heartbreaking. Please don't beat yourself up, you have done your very best, as you always do, some things we just can't change. Please take care of yourself, there are loads of cats and kittens out there who will need your help xx


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## Alisonfoy (Mar 20, 2013)

Oh Carly, I am so sorry. I have just read the 1st post in the thread and my heart goes out to you.

Before she came to live with me, Bluebell had a litter of kittens (apparently she escaped and mated with a local Tom) and every single one of them died, one after another. She too had to have an emergency c-section.

You and your beloved puss will get through this, and if fate is finally prepared to be kind, so will the last kitten. If not, you have done everything you can. Life can be very cruel at times.

Sending a big hug too, as you must be completely exhausted.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Carly, you need to take on board that there was very little chance of these kittens pulling through in the first place. It doesn't mean you or anyone has done something wrong at all. It means you've done everything right by trying your best and you couldn't overcome the inevitable.


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

I am a big believer in fate, sometimes what will be will be, no matter how hard you try to make things otherwise. You done everything you could, and more, for those babies, you have nothing to feel guilty about. Everything happens for a reason, although that remains unclear to you, no amount of intervention will make a difference sometimes, it just wasn't meant to be, you did an amazing job though, never forget that. 
With your love a Gabby will be fine, and if Apache is pregnant she needs you to be strong for her because she'll pick up on how you are feeling. 
It isn't your fault, it's completely beyond your control, baby is snuggled with his siblings at Rainbow Bridge now, he's happy. 
Not forgetting huge respect to the vet nurse, what an amazing thing she's done in helping out with these babies. 
Chin up, you'll get through this xxx


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

Alisonfoy said:


> Before she came to live with me, Bluebell had a litter of kittens (apparently she escaped and mated with a local Tom) and every single one of them died, one after another. She too had to have an emergency c-section.


One of my breeders girls had a c-section with her first litter a couple of months ago, they all died too and Mum spent 2 days on a drip at the vets. Truly heartbreaking, but sometimes these things happen.


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## mudgekin (Apr 21, 2014)

You have done everything humanly and superhumanly possible to give extremely prem babies the chance of life. Sometimes they are just meant to go to the bridge as babies.

Please don't torture yourself any more than you have. You gave these wee mites more of a chance that most could have. It doesn't reflect on you as a breeder. 

Think how many human babies are born extremely early and despite all the high tech medicine available and all the nurses and doctors looking after them they still don't make it. Your babies have only had you and if love and prayers could have pulled them through they would still be here. 

Carly, hard and heartbreaking as it is, it was just their time to leave. You couldn't have done more.

(((Hugs)))


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

In time, I know that I will see that I did everything possible. But "what if" and "should have" are powerful things, and they keep circling around and around in my head. I can't stop thinking of the little one still at the vets and I'm worried sick. I feel so sad for him as he's now on his own with no mum and no sibs, with nothing but his stuffed dog to cuddle up to for comfort. I know it has to be that way as mum can't go home with the nurse, nor into the practise every day, but it's still sad. I will stop beating myself up eventually, but that will take time I'm sure.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I will stop beating myself up eventually, but that will take time I'm sure


A long time and I'm not sure you ever stop blaming yourself completely. I don't think the outcome would have been any different for all the 'what ifs' and 'should haves' though. If we should castigate ourselves for anything in these situations it's for daring to hope and yet without that we wouldn't bother to try.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Very wise words, Havoc, and I do think it's the ability to see this through and through which will define whether someone can go on breeding after an experience like this. I'm not sure which camp I fall into yet.


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

Thinking of you, Gabby and the little one xxx


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

Words just aren't enough ....

Thinking of you Carly, and giving Manny an extra cuddle tonight. Just remember he is here because of you xx


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

The last kitten has gone this morning. He went the same way as the others. Fine one minute, gone within no more than a few hours. I can't even put words to how I'm feeling right now. I've just taken down my steriliser and set my syringes to dry, and my heart is aching because I know I won't need them again. I can't face taking down the kitten pen yet, and am afraid that, once gone, Gabby will realise her babies aren't coming back. I can't deal with her grieving on top of mine at the minute.

This has been 10 days of absolute hell. I would not recommend this to anyone.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

RIP Little Babies.

Hugs to you Carly.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh no Carly 

I am so very, very sorry 

RIP little babies, reunited and all together again, just wish you'd stayed in your mama a bit longer xx 

Take care of yourself Carly


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

So sorry, life can be so cruel. X


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

Thinking of you Carly - so very sorry xx


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## oliviarussian (Sep 2, 2010)

Rest in peace little ones, it's a cruel, cruel world x


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

So sorry Carly. RIP little ones. Now playing happily at the bridge together.

Big Hugs to you. xxx


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## RubyFelicity (Aug 26, 2013)

Carly i'm so sorry.


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

So sorry Carly


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## Lovehatetragedy (Jul 8, 2010)

My most recent rescue came to me 2 weeks before birth and I was petrified for her as I had no idea who the father is, the condition of the kittens and whether it was inbreeding  

I'm so sorry for your losses, its such a shame xx


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## mudgekin (Apr 21, 2014)

Carly, no words can express how much I am sure that we all feel for you. Now is the time that you must look after yourself after this truly hellish time. Take time and regroup your emotions.

We are all thinking and saying whatever prayers we believe in for you.

Sleep tight babies, born too soon, the world is a better place for having felt your presence


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## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

Very sorry to read this, poor babies just weren't meant for this world, you and Gabby please take care of yourselves now Carly xxx


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## slartibartfast (Dec 28, 2013)

I'm so sorry, my heart goes out to you.
RIP sweet babies, too fragile for this cruel world.
Thinking about you and Gabby.


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## Aubrie30 (Aug 10, 2014)

So sorry Carly. Please look after yourself, I'm keeping you and Gabby in my thoughts.


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## Alisonfoy (Mar 20, 2013)

I am so sorry Carly. Life can be utter heartless. You did everything you could to help the kittens and must be completely exhausted - both physically and mentally. Please focus on regaining your equilibrium and getting Gabby back to health. Sending you cyberhugs x


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

I just read this post. Really sorry for your loss Carly, what a sad period for you. You have really worked and worried very much.


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

RIP little babies, they're all together now, try and take comfort from that. Big hugs to you and Gabby xxx


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

A heartfelt very very sorry Carly - run free at the bridge little ones


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Carly, thank you for your bravery in telling this story.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Tragic news, I'm so very sorry.

Hugs for you and gabby , you'll get though this xx


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## Bluefluffybirmans (Jun 9, 2014)

So sorry, rest in peace little ones x


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you all for your messages of support. I'll write more when I'm able to. Just trying to steel myself now to put away all my kitten bits and bobs. It really hurts.


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## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

So sad to read this Carly - my heart goes out to you and the pain you're feeling.

RIP little ones.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

So sorry Carly


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm not sure if this will be of any reassurance to you, but the thought occurred to me and I thought if it could help, then I should post. I was thinking about human babies who are born very premature. Their chances of survival are tenuous and they are always confined to the neo-natal unit until they are able to go home. My former neighbour's oldest daughter was 2 month premature and I believe they kept her in for nearly 2 months. The parents were required to wear sterile clothing and couldn't even touch her directly in the beginning because of the fear of infection.

So, I'm thinking it's nothing short of a miracle when kittens, born at home, kept at home, not in completely sterile environments, survive. When you are questioning your own abilities and efforts at cleanliness, remember that your home can never hope to be as sterile, and for pets, unfortunately, they don't have neo-natal units. This shouldn't put you off breeding--after all, Jenny1966's Manny is one gorgeous product of your efforts. But maybe it will help put things in perspective that nature will do what nature does, and you did all you could given the hand you were dealt this litter.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm so so sorry Carly xxxx

RIP little ones xx


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

So sorry for your loss Carly. You did everything possible for them x RIP little ones x


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Oh Carly, I am so very sorry. It is inevitable that you will put blame upon yourself but in time you will come to realise that you could have done no more and gave everything you could. 

Grieve now and allow yourself to slowly take stock. ((Hugs))


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I know I need to grieve fully, but I can't yet. One of my others needs major eye surgery tomorrow, and I need to hold it together until that's over and done with. Then I can fall apart and howl for a few days. I need to do it to heal, I know I do, but I just can't yet. And I want to go through the horrendous task fo taking down the kitten pen, washing bedding etc before I completely lose it.

Danny, I've been thinking this myself over the last few days. I've seen those tiny babies, I've worked with them, so I know what a miracle it is when they pull through, and knew exactly the extent of the uphill battle I was fighting. It just doesn't make it any easier to accept, that's all.


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## tinymidgekin (Nov 12, 2010)

Oh Carly I am so sorry. You did all you could and they had all your love even for the short time they were with you.


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## Mum to Missy (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm so sorry Carly (((hugs)))

Hope all goes well for the one with eye surgery.

RIP little ones xx


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

Nothing I say can make it better, we are thinking of you xx


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## Jellypi3 (Jan 3, 2014)

RIP little ones - so sorry for your losses Carly x


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## Azriel391 (Mar 19, 2013)

So sorry Carly, run free little ones xxx Thinking of you and Gabby x


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## smiler84 (Feb 4, 2012)

such a sad thread to read, but thankyou for sharing this horrible time with us - if it makes even one person reconsider breeding their cat then a little bit of good can come from such a terrible ordeal.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

carly87 said:


> I know I need to grieve fully, but I can't yet. One of my others needs major eye surgery tomorrow, and I need to hold it together until that's over and done with. Then I can fall apart and howl for a few days. I need to do it to heal, I know I do, but I just can't yet. And I want to go through the horrendous task fo taking down the kitten pen, washing bedding etc before I completely lose it.
> 
> Danny, I've been thinking this myself over the last few days. I've seen those tiny babies, I've worked with them, so I know what a miracle it is when they pull through, and knew exactly the extent of the uphill battle I was fighting. It just doesn't make it any easier to accept, that's all.


I figured as much, but it's hard even from an ocean away to read someone's pain and feel their helplessness and know they're beating themselves up for something they really could not have handled any better. I thought if there was any way to help you bring some perspective and allow you to grieve with less guilt it was worth mentioning.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Oh Carly, I so feared it would come to this....
I had exactly the same thoughts: such a big litter, so premature, so utterly tiny, you were fighting a losing battle from the start. Whatever you did, however much love, care and effort you put into it, short of performing a miracle, you really never stood a chance of pulling them through. Which I know you were fully aware of, but you simply had to try, give it everything you got - and more.....

These babies were born in the best possible home, for they could not have received that immeasurable amount of love and care from anyone else. You took intensive care to a whole new level, on the off-chance of saving at least one or two of them.

After the loss of the third or fourth kitten I stopped reading. I got a bad cold and some intestinal virus, so I spent a few days in bed and have hardly been on the computer for at least 4 or 5 days. So when I came back to this thread and realized you had lost all of them, my heart broke for you.

I am so utterly devastated at your loss, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must be like for you. Poor little babies....

But they came to you for a reason....
These babies were never meant to live, they were little angels, already at the Bridge, kittens of some dumped pregnant moggy who were born and died without ever knowing love, and with no human to wait for and come and greet when the time comes.

Some poor little rejected kittens were given a second chance, to return for a short spell on earth, in a loving home, with the most loving, caring slave in the world, so they would know what love means, before they were called back to the Bridge, where they will now have the most loving slave of all to wait for.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I am very, very sorry to hear this heartbreaking news Carly. A terrible loss - I am so sad for you hun, and I understand how numb with shock and exhaustion you must feel.

Thinking of you with great sympathy. 

RIP little babies.


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm so sorry to read this news. This is heartbreaking for you Carly, I know. You've had no choice but to go through this nightmare hoping to save all the little ones but it wasn't to be. I hope Gabby will improve and be OK and that your other puss's eye operation goes well. Take care. RIP little ones.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

so sorry that you lost them all sweet. Been reading your updates everyday hoping for a bit of good news. Please do not give up hope. We are great believers ib fate and a can honestly say that your babies crossing the bridge is for a reason far more unfathomable than we can comprehend. Big hugs to you lovely xxx


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

big big hugs Carly xxx

best wishes for your cats eye operation and kisses for Gabby xx


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Hope you and Gabby are feeling a bit better Carly. Big hugs and purrs xxxx


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm very sorry Carly

Hugs xx


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## Gwen9244 (Nov 10, 2012)

I have just read through this totally and utterly heart breaking post. You did everything you could for those poor babies and you should never question if you could have done anything more for them - it wasnt possible! Your poor girl had such a large litter so early.

RIP gorgeous little fur babies. Play hard at the bridge in the sunshine.

P.S. I think this should be made a sticky.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you all for your support

Gabby is still going through her grieving process and is a nightmare to live with at the moment. She's taken a complete and utter dislike to one of the girls. And the feeling's mutual. It's a bit fun in this house at the moment...


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## Lilo&stitch (Nov 10, 2015)

carly87 said:


> Here's my story. I want you to remember this when you consider allowing Fluffy to have just one litter to settle her down.
> 
> 9 weeks ago, my female Persian was mated with a male of the same breed. This was a planned mating, so both cats were health tested, and clear of all associated diseases The mating was performed in a controlled environment which was just as well for both cats as she was very frightened, and subsequently quite stroppy afterwards. This control avoided injury to the cats. Please note that Fluffy will be bitten hard by the tom on mating. His little man bits are barbed, so it goes in Ok, but on the way out, it will literally tear her inside. This causes her to attempt to do serious injury to the boy due to the pain.
> 
> ...


My mother is pregnant with her 2nd litter i am crying my eyes out! with her first litter she had 5 the first 3 were fine but the last two she had the first was tiny compared to the other 3 and the 5th one was born not breathing i tried everything! But she wouldnt breath after 45 mins of trying and the other girl didnt make it through the night!


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## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

This is so sad Carly, I'm so sorry. I read your post moments before going to bed last night and I couldn't stop thinking about it all night.

I'm a relatively new member of this forum but even in the short time I've been around I've seen some chat about these "accidental" litters... I only hope some of those people take a moment to read what you went through even with all your experience and doing everything right xxx


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lilo&stitch said:


> My mother is pregnant with her 2nd litter i am crying my eyes out! with her first litter she had 5 the first 3 were fine but the last two she had the first was tiny compared to the other 3 and the 5th one was born not breathing i tried everything! But she wouldnt breath after 45 mins of trying and the other girl didnt make it through the night!


Unless she is a registered pedigree female I sincerely hope you get her spayed as soon as your vet will do so. Until then she needs keeping in as she can get pregnant again while she is feeding her kittens.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

What an unpleasant shock it was to unexpectedly see this old thread resurrected. Had to go and give Zipy a long, long cuddle after reading this as it's all still so fresh. And to have it brought up again by someone who sounds like they're breeding a moggy is just too much. Read this, think about it, then have her spayed.


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## Burmesemum (Mar 7, 2015)

Thought the same thing when I realised the date of post.

Quite thoughtless and tactless.


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

carly87 said:


> What an unpleasant shock it was to unexpectedly see this old thread resurrected. Had to go and give Zipy a long, long cuddle after reading this as it's all still so fresh. And to have it brought up again by someone who sounds like they're breeding a moggy is just too much. Read this, think about it, then have her spayed.


Awww Carly I am so sorry you have had to relive the awful time you had last year. I'm sure it still hurts but hopefully your post above is a reminder to some who irresponsibly breed their moggies let it be a warning to them....don't do it! Love and hugs Carly xxx


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## Bilai (Jun 3, 2015)

I'm so sorry as well Carly. And sorry also for being sucked into adding to this thread without realising it had been resurrected x


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## TheRamosOnline (Oct 19, 2015)

Blimey, that sounds traumatizing.
I had been considering letting Amy have a litter once she's a few years old, but after reading that I think I'm going to go through with neutering her.

Hope things have settled down since the ordeal.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

TheRamosOnline said:


> Blimey, that sounds traumatizing.
> I had been considering letting Amy* have a litter once she's a few years old*, but after reading that I think I'm going to go through with neutering her.
> 
> Hope things have settled down since the ordeal.


I believe Amy is a black domestic shorthair. If she *was* a pedigree registered active with something to offer the breed, then except for very slow-maturing breeds the idea time for a first litter to be delivered is usually when the cat is up to 2 years old. She is full-grown or almost so, she's had her first set of boosters before going to stud, and she has probably matured mentally to a degree.

Glad you have decided against letting her have a litter, she really should be neutered as soon as your get will. Cats allowed to keep calling are at risk of pyometra (infection of the uterus) and each call slightly increases the chances of breast cancer. Also cats that go out to choose their own mate are at risk of catching FeLV and FIV, plus cats looking for a mate are not as alert to danger as they normally are so all the risks of an outdoor life are greater.

If you want to experience looking after a cat & kittens, fostering might provide that for you.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

TheRamos, really glad it's made you think twice. It's really, really, really not a good idea unless you have a damn good reason to do it, mine with this girl being that our breed needed, in my opinion, a new injection of genetics, and she was from lines never before bred in the Uk.

Despite having all the love and attention any cat could ask for, she grieved for about 6 months solid, lost loads of condition, then started calling like mad. She hated my girl that had tried to help with kittens. We reluctantly mated her again under very, very controlled circumstances, under which most girls would probably not even get pregnant (we severely tried to minimise the chances of her having another big litter).

Despite all of our efforts, she had another big litter for a Persian, 6 babies, and although they all survived, she became so obsessed with making sure that the same thing didn't happen again that she developed a bone deep hatred of every other cat in the house, even attacking the kittens if she thought they were doing something dangerous to wards the end of their stay with us. No matter what we tried, she couldn't re-integrate back into the household. Even neutering didn't help. The only thing that did was rehoming her with some of her favourite kittens, away from the house she associated with so much trauma. As soon as we did, she turned into her old self again.

So unless you want to risk everything I have, go through the same heartache and then end up losing your girl anyway, don't do it. Just don't.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

carly87 said:


> TheRamos, really glad it's made you think twice. It's really, really, really not a good idea unless you have a damn good reason to do it, mine with this girl being that our breed needed, in my opinion, a new injection of genetics, and she was from lines never before bred in the Uk.
> 
> Despite having all the love and attention any cat could ask for, she grieved for about 6 months solid, lost loads of condition, then started calling like mad. She hated my girl that had tried to help with kittens. We reluctantly mated her again under very, very controlled circumstances, under which most girls would probably not even get pregnant (we severely tried to minimise the chances of her having another big litter).
> 
> ...


Hi Carly, heart-breaking to read this thread now as I was not around when it was originally posted.
I am really surprised by your latest reply, please can I ask why you tried again after such a traumatic first pregnancy and devastating outcome? I'm not being negative in any way, just really intrigued as to what encouraged you do try it all again?


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## TheRamosOnline (Oct 19, 2015)

carly87 said:


> TheRamos, really glad it's made you think twice. It's really, really, really not a good idea unless you have a damn good reason to do it, mine with this girl being that our breed needed, in my opinion, a new injection of genetics, and she was from lines never before bred in the Uk.
> 
> Despite having all the love and attention any cat could ask for, she grieved for about 6 months solid, lost loads of condition, then started calling like mad. She hated my girl that had tried to help with kittens. We reluctantly mated her again under very, very controlled circumstances, under which most girls would probably not even get pregnant (we severely tried to minimise the chances of her having another big litter).
> 
> ...


It's such a shame that you had to rehome her in the end 
I am curious as to why you tried a second time, though. Was it to try and end her grieving by giving her a new litter to care for?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

TheRamosOnline said:


> It's such a shame that you had to rehome her in the end
> I am curious as to why you tried a second time, though. Was it to try and end her grieving by giving her a new litter to care for?


Carly87 wrote:
_"this girl being that our breed needed, in my opinion, a new injection of genetics, and she was from lines never before bred in the Uk."_

She had a huge amount to offer the breed as she is an outcross to just about all UK-bred cats.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Exactly what OS said. Being entrusted with a cat with such bloodlines is a big responsibility in more ways than one. However, as TheRamos said, it was also in an attempt to try and end not only her grieving, but mine as well. I wanted desperately to keep her, and knew that I had to do my best by the breed as well, so I thought by giving her another litter, she could let go of the heartache from the first one and focus all her attention on the second. She did this and was happy again whilst pregnant, but had some deep seeded insecurities that we just couldn't shake.

Unfortunately, when you breed, you sign up to heartache, and that includes going through things a second time that you wouldn't otherwise. Genetics are really important in pedigree breeds, and there were literally no others of this bloodline in the Uk, with mum and dad being out of the breeding pool, 2 sibs neutered and the only other entire of the litter not working yet. So it was either breed or lose the line, and as there was no genetic issue with kittens last time (they died because they were too young to be born, not because of health issues), there was no reason not to try again.

I also hoped that when she had kittens, she would relax a bit and we could reintegrate her with my other cats and avoid a rehome, but sadly this was not to be. She was only really happy when pregnant, and I will never back to back breed for a reason like this. I was also worried that she was clearly going to continue having massive litters no matter what I did in terms of minimising this risk. So I kept a baby and spayed mum as I now had the important genetic material we needed for the breed, and Gabby could have her happiness into the bargain.

Does that explain it?


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## Lilo&stitch (Nov 10, 2015)

I'm 


OrientalSlave said:


> Unless she is a registered pedigree female I sincerely hope you get her spayed as soon as your vet will do so. Until then she needs keeping in as she can get pregnant again while she is feeding her kittens.


getting her done as soon as i can!! babies arnt moving much today should i be worried?


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> If you want to experience looking after a cat & kittens, fostering might provide that for you.


This is what I did, although I didn't really have any particular desire to raise a littler. But doing it that way means you're helping with the over-population of moggies issue, rather than adding to it


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

This thread has just popped up on a completely random google search for me! Really wish I hadn't gone back and re-read it. We have recently had a loss in our family. Reading this on top of it really wasn't one of my smarter ideas. All these years on, I still grieve for those tiny babies, still break out in a cold sweat at the thought of new kittens, where before it used to just be pure joy, and turn into a complete wreck now until they are about 4 weeks old. I've only had the guts to have 2 litters since then, another with Gabby and 1 with her baby. Thankfully all have been straightforward births, but I don't think I'll ever look at breeding the same way again.


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## vivien (Jul 20, 2009)

Hugs Carly. It is normal to still feel grief. I still feel grief for cats that I lost 30 odd years ago. Maybe longer. It show what a good breeder you are and that you care for your cats. 

Viv xx


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## jinny cole (Aug 7, 2018)

carly87 said:


> Here's my story. I want you to remember this when you consider allowing Fluffy to have just one litter to settle her down.
> You poor poor lady. I do understand and have not had it nearly as bad and am exhausted after 2 days. First pregnancy, 20 hours of second phase (Ithought contractions!) breach was eventually evident and I tried unsuccessfully to get the dead kitten out but its head was stuck. So rushed to the vet. She was immediately operated on, spayed and had 4 (so far) healthy kittens... so I have them back at home and they seem strong, sucklying etc. Water pipetted to mum. My main advice to anyone from my experience is that if I had had a scan, I would have seen the first kitten was very large a in breach position and could have gone straight into a Cesarean. It was bad enough for me seeing and not understanding let alone for my lovely Mysty. Breaches seem to happen most often with maiden births. She was 62 days but the kittens are large - prawns, purrform meat and science plan for kittens!!. I have seen one utube film with a successful breach but the cat was obviously not a maiden and the kitten was nowhere near as large as ours. Good luck and my sincere sympathies.
> 9 weeks ago, my female Persian was mated with a male of the same breed. This was a planned mating, so both cats were health tested, and clear of all associated diseases The mating was performed in a controlled environment which was just as well for both cats as she was very frightened, and subsequently quite stroppy afterwards. This control avoided injury to the cats. Please note that Fluffy will be bitten hard by the tom on mating. His little man bits are barbed, so it goes in Ok, but on the way out, it will literally tear her inside. This causes her to attempt to do serious injury to the boy due to the pain.
> 
> ...


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## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Zombie thread!


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