# Possible aggression from 12 week old puppy, please help!



## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

We recently brought home an 8 week old Dogue de Bordeaux puppy after losing our Lab to Lymphoma. We also have an 18month old son and 4year old daughter. We were aware there may possibly be a few more "dominant" tendencies with this breed and it was advisable to socialize him as much as possible (as we would look to do with any breed anyway) 

Cooper has settled in well, although has been nipping alot which i accept is normal puppy behavior but we've been trying to reduce it by yelping, folding arms and ignoring him, and putting him other side of the stair gate to time out.

However he's been growling alot whilst nipping, and also if he thinks you may remove him from the room he sometimes growls aswell, which is hard to tell if its "play" growling or P**s off or im going to bite growling 

He just had a bath and was sat on the sofa next to my girlfriend (he was in a "playful""growly" mood), my daughter who should have been in bed run downstairs into the living room with us and Cooper growled at her and jumped off the sofa to chew/nip her.

I hope it doesn't sound like i'm over reacting, im aware puppies bite although we are trying to reduce this, but the growling worries me a little, its not much of a problem now but i dont want him carrying on like that at 50+kg and hopefully if its something that can be stopped i assume its easier to deal with now whilst he's learning, thanks


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

DDB talk, like Rotties and SBTs so be careful you are not confusing the two. However I would suggest that you get your pup off the sofa, unless of course you inted on providing him with one that is solely his?

This is because there will not be ROOM for anyone else than him on the sofa.

Your dog is a dog, not another child.

Have you prepared a set of house rules that you have all agreed to and which are published on teh fridge etc?

If not, I would suggest you do so now.

The liberties you can get away with with a labrador are not those you can take with a DDB


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## troublestrouble (Oct 19, 2011)

i dont think you are over reacting and i think its good you are thinking about this now. he needs to get out with some other doggies and be told off a bit and put in his place, hes got too big for his boots and hes going to have big boots one day 

i've only ever met Bordeaux's who are very cuddly affectionate dogs and i hope someone on here has some more practical examples for you but doing a lot of training with him will help him to learn that you and your family are the boss and that you are fun, lots of sitting and waiting for things, my german shepherds love this and i think it has helped them to really know that i the mummy even though they sleep on our bed and sit on our sofa and are cuddled ALLLLL the time. my partner also likes to play 'fighting' games with them where the aim is for him to get them on their backs and their aim is to not. some people will say this is a really bad idea (and mine are girls which might make a difference) but Trouble especially is very pleased to play these games and has not problems when she ends up on her back, she gets a cuddle out of it at the end too 

good luck though, it's good to see someone being conscious of the size their dogs WILL get and the implications small things on a large dog might have


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for replies, we've tried to socialise him as much as we can, my daughter had a birthday party when he was 10weeks old, we had it at our house and cooper was in our busy house and was settled and even fell asleep on busy kitchen floor. We took him to families house for a couple of hours and he played with their jack Russell. I've also taken him to work and he's behaved well. We don't leave him with kids but when supervised he can be good with them but normally ends up trying to play fight with them as he does my and my gf. His booster was late (11/12 weeks) so he's only just been allowed for walks so this may help. He's a bit dubious on his walks so far and has to be led by a treat, yesterday some kids were playing football outside and he tried to hide by my car but the kids stopped playing when they saw him and ran over to fuss him and his tail wagged and he seemed to be happy to greet them. Our lab never growled at me or my kids but I acceapt it's not only a different dog but a different breed. I know what you mean about the "talking" he does growl when play fighting which doesn't seem very aggressive although he does get carried away and his nose wrinkles a bit more (like snarling) at which point he is put out of the room, he then normally whimpers to come back in and normally calms down for a while. A list of rules seems a good idea, our little boy is a bit of a caveman and cant say much yet, he also retaliates to being nipped by cooper and they playfight which I try to discourage but unfortunately this means cooper and my son have to be separated more than I would like


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> We recently brought home an 8 week old Dogue de Bordeaux puppy after losing our Lab to Lymphoma. We also have an 18month old son and 4year old daughter. We were aware there may possibly be a few more "dominant" tendencies with this breed and it was advisable to socialize him as much as possible (as we would look to do with any breed anyway)
> 
> Cooper has settled in well, although has been nipping alot which i accept is normal puppy behavior but we've been trying to reduce it by yelping, folding arms and ignoring him, and putting him other side of the stair gate to time out.
> 
> ...


Have you tried speaking to your breeder? A decent breeder should be happy to give you on going advice and support no matter what and throughout the dogs life, so any worries etc. Maybe contact her.

Second suggestion DDB Welfare, although Welfare is also breed Rescue, they will offer help support and advice or answer any questions about the breed. its run by people who have usually owned them for years and know the breed inside out and are happy to help. Why not give them a ring, honestly Ive found over the years that Welfare and someone knowledgeable and does it purely for the breed they love, are usually great and happy to help Here is a link with contact details ad have a look through the website too there is often general traning help and advice thats breed specific too
Contact Us


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Thanks for replies, we've tried to socialise him as much as we can, my daughter had a birthday party when he was 10weeks old, we had it at our house and cooper was in our busy house and was settled and even fell asleep on busy kitchen floor. We took him to families house for a couple of hours and he played with their jack Russell. I've also taken him to work and he's behaved well. We don't leave him with kids but when supervised he can be good with them but normally ends up trying to play fight with them as he does my and my gf. His booster was late (11/12 weeks) so he's only just been allowed for walks so this may help. He's a bit dubious on his walks so far and has to be led by a treat, yesterday some kids were playing football outside and he tried to hide by my car but the kids stopped playing when they saw him and ran over to fuss him and his tail wagged and he seemed to be happy to greet them. Our lab never growled at me or my kids but I acceapt it's not only a different dog but a different breed. I know what you mean about the "talking" he does growl when play fighting which doesn't seem very aggressive although he does get carried away and his nose wrinkles a bit more (like snarling) at which point he is put out of the room, he then normally whimpers to come back in and normally calms down for a while. A list of rules seems a good idea, our little boy is a bit of a caveman and cant say much yet, he also retaliates to being nipped by cooper and they playfight which I try to discourage but unfortunately this means cooper and my son have to be separated more than I would like


I know its hard but letting the kids roughouse and playfight is not always a good idea especially on the floor at the dogs level. Puppies in the litter jump on each other bite and growl in play, he could be treating the kids especially as litter mates, the wilder the play its just going to hype him up more and be rough with them.

You really need to make him start to work for stuff, he gets treats and attention for listening and doing as you ask ONLY. You should be able to achieve this by doing formal training with him, even 2 or 3 10/15 minute sessions a day. Vital one to learn is obviously a sit but a sit wait is great, it can improve his impulse control and learn him to focus. Teach the Sit, when he has that realiable then instead of immediate treating as in a sit when the bum hits the deck, start saying wait and then give the treat. Then build up the time between the wait and him getting the treat longer and longer, so he has to control his impulses.

Practisse getting him to come to command as well, using a treat to lure as you say the come at first if need be, then you have a way to move him about and getting him to go to other rooms without any hastle.

Behaviour you dont want he doesnt get anything treats attention nada. Stuff you do want he gets praise and attention, you need to be consistent though every one needs to make him work for stuff. You can even assisted get the kids to train him, so he is taught he has to sit and do as they ask too, for them. You should find the kids will get a kick out of it too. Get him to play structured games, with a ball and encourage retrival instead of the wild roughouse stuff.


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

I dont have experience with DDB's but I just wanted to give you a little support. My GSD was very mouthy as a pup to the point of broken skin and scratches. She also growled, snarled and pounced while chewing on your limbs. 
I was a little worried, I'd never had a pup that was so loud and persistant with their biting but it did stop by about 6 months old like my breeder had said. 
We constantly redirected with a toy and praised when she was quiet and gentle and it eventually faded away. 
Its in our nature to be wary of a growling dog but some puppies are more land shark then others and it does get better


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Think I will give them a call to be on the safe side. We have been doing about 15 mins an eve training (any longer he wonders off to sleep) he's learnt to come, sit, and lay, I'm also teaching him stay at the moment and obviously all these commands will be ongoing as if you don't have a "decent" treat or he is not in the mood he won't listen so will keep repeating the training. I'm hoping he will grow out of it but it worried me a little as he does get grouchy. I noticed even at 8 weeks he got under our bed, I led down to get him out and he took a aggressive stance and snarled at me, he's always been grumpy, want to get it sorted though


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Think I will give them a call to be on the safe side. We have been doing about 15 mins an eve training (any longer he wonders off to sleep) he's learnt to come, sit, and lay, I'm also teaching him stay at the moment and obviously all these commands will be ongoing as if you don't have a "decent" treat or he is not in the mood he won't listen so will keep repeating the training. I'm hoping he will grow out of it but it worried me a little as he does get grouchy. I noticed even at 8 weeks he got under our bed, I led down to get him out and he took a aggressive stance and snarled at me, he's always been grumpy, want to get it sorted though


I would have a chat to them, honestly you cant beat a breed specialist, whats usually good with welfare too, is because its welfare they have usually had every problem behaviour wise known to man either because of rescues coming in, or personal experience with the breed. A lot of it is probably over zealous, hyper over the top behaviour. There are a couple of things you have said though about him being hesitant and unsure on his walks, I know he hasnt been going out long, but if he is a slightly nervous, uncertain pup or continues to be, stressy dogs can be a little bit more reactive to things. Could be because it is early days. I notice you said too that he was a bit later going out and socialising, that could have an impact too. They do have fear periods as well, with a fear period, its usually an outgoing brave pup, suddenly becomes uncertain and even fearful of sights sounds and situations again, and it tends to be a phase and the phase handled correctly they soon pass through it and get back on track. A fear period is different though to a dog who is unsure from the beginning and continues to be all the time.

Did you see him with the litter and mum? You can sometimes tell a lot or get an inkling how they react within the litter, You can get the ones that trample over the others and push their way forwards and couldnt care who they trample in the process, ie pushy little devils, you then get the sort of middle for diddle outgoing but laid back to a certain extent, and then you can get outsiders ones that hang back or separate from the litter, these tend to be not so outgoing. Obviously there is ones sort of inbetween these but just to give you an idea of sort of extremes.

Dont know a lot about DDB but I should imagine that, they would need early socialisation and early training and kind yet firm but fair handling to get the best out of them. Bit like the Malamute really, and if you do lapse I should think they could be a bit of a handful not necessarilly in a nasty aggressive way, just a rule the roost way for want of a better description.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I would have a chat to them, honestly you cant beat a breed specialist, whats usually good with welfare too, is because its welfare they have usually had every problem behaviour wise known to man either because of rescues coming in, or personal experience with the breed. A lot of it is probably over zealous, hyper over the top behaviour. There are a couple of things you have said though about him being hesitant and unsure on his walks, I know he hasnt been going out long, but if he is a slightly nervous, uncertain pup or continues to be, stressy dogs can be a little bit more reactive to things. Could be because it is early days. I notice you said too that he was a bit later going out and socialising, that could have an impact too. They do have fear periods as well, with a fear period, its usually an outgoing brave pup, suddenly becomes uncertain and even fearful of sights sounds and situations again, and it tends to be a phase and the phase handled correctly they soon pass through it and get back on track. A fear period is different though to a dog who is unsure from the beginning and continues to be all the time.
> 
> Did you see him with the litter and mum? You can sometimes tell a lot or get an inkling how they react within the litter, You can get the ones that trample over the others and push their way forwards and couldnt care who they trample in the process, ie pushy little devils, you then get the sort of middle for diddle outgoing but laid back to a certain extent, and then you can get outsiders ones that hang back or separate from the litter, these tend to be not so outgoing. Obviously there is ones sort of inbetween these but just to give you an idea of sort of extremes.
> 
> Dont know a lot about DDB but I should imagine that, they would need early socialisation and early training and kind yet firm but fair handling to get the best out of them. Bit like the Malamute really, and if you do lapse I should think they could be a bit of a handful not necessarilly in a nasty aggressive way, just a rule the roost way for want of a better description.


He cowers a little when being walked and a car drives past, he sometimes just stops, we bumped into a lady with a beagle today and they said hello to each other and were well behaved. when he stops i try to lure him with treats but sometimes he's determined and digs in, what would be the correct thing to do if the treats don't work? i drag him a little and sometimes he starts to walk again, other times it doesn't work, i had to carry him a little today.

The litter were all very chilled out when we viewed them, the parents were more active than the pups, they all sat and stared.

Going to contact DDB welfare like you said for some advice.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> He cowers a little when being walked and a car drives past, he sometimes just stops, we bumped into a lady with a beagle today and they said hello to each other and were well behaved. when he stops i try to lure him with treats but sometimes he's determined and digs in, what would be the correct thing to do if the treats don't work? i drag him a little and sometimes he starts to walk again, other times it doesn't work, i had to carry him a little today.
> 
> The litter were all very chilled out when we viewed them, the parents were more active than the pups, they all sat and stared.
> 
> Going to contact DDB welfare like you said for some advice.


Sometimes when pups first go out it becomes very overwhelming for them at first as they get a sensory overload. Its always hard on here because you cant see them, but it does sound that he may be very uncertain to maybe the point of being fearful. If he is then dragging him and making him face it before he is ready likely wont be the best thing. Try to give him the time to weigh things up and then jolly him along to move forward under his own steam if you can. When you leave home are you immediately on a busy street with a lot of traffic? If so whats he like in the car, any chance you can take him somewhere quieter like a park or field where he is going to see other dogs and people? Then when he has had a few trips and got more confident or seems to have, then giv e him a few short bursts of a quiet side rd where he is going to get encounter a car or two, and then when he seems more confident a busier road, etc etc. Building him up and introducing to stuff gradually and a bit at a time.

When you said the pups just all sat and looked at you, didnt any of them want to investigate you and show any curiosity and approach? I find it a little odd if they just all sat still and just looked at you I must admit. 
Do you know if they were born and raised in the house or outside in a kennel.
Sounds like he is Ok and inquisitive with dogs from what you said, whats he like with people? Does he show interest and open curiosity and want to sniff and check them out? Or does he hang back and look wary?


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

We live in a cul de sac in a fairly quiet area, a few cars max will drive past on the route we take, may take him elsewhere over weekend. When people approach him he's very exciteable, he will go to them and wag his tail. In the car he's very calm, he sits fairly still. The pups were in kennels when we viewed them, the adults were all in kennels, they had stable doors so we watched over the door they all sat and looked at us, my gf said as we walked in he got up in good time and approached us. I've e mailed ddb welfare for advice aswell. He's got the hump at the moment because he's been kicked off the sofa, I will say he's behaved fairly well today although my gf was playing with him, she stopped as she was distracted by tv and he nipped her and drew blood, seemed to try to get her attention again?!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> We live in a cul de sac in a fairly quiet area, a few cars max will drive past on the route we take, may take him elsewhere over weekend. When people approach him he's very exciteable, he will go to them and wag his tail. In the car he's very calm, he sits fairly still. The pups were in kennels when we viewed them, the adults were all in kennels, they had stable doors so we watched over the door they all sat and looked at us, my gf said as we walked in he got up in good time and approached us. I've e mailed ddb welfare for advice aswell. He's got the hump at the moment because he's been kicked off the sofa, I will say he's behaved fairly well today although my gf was playing with him, she stopped as she was distracted by tv and he nipped her and drew blood, seemed to try to get her attention again?!


They do often jump up and mouth and nip for attention, you have to be really careful you dont give any, even telling them off making eye contact and things is still a form of acknowledging them. Anything that gets a result in the form of some kind of reward, they will repeat it, it becomes a learned behaviour but one you dont want.

Anything he wants make him come to you for and do a sit or a down first and if you can get him to pause by saying wait first when giving a treat even better.

One good thing to teach him is to start playing with him with a toy, if he plays calmly and just gently mouths the toy while you are playing, thats OK continue, if he starts to get really rough, hyper and especially if teeth touch skin then cease the game completely. Ignore him, and dont engage him until he is calm and stayed that way for a bit. Then you can resume the game. He plays nicely and keeps teeth to himself ie the toy, game continues, too wild or teeth touch you again stop. That should help as its teaching him controlled play and whats acceptable to mouth and whats not.

All these exercises certainly wont do any harm while you are waiting to hear,
they should help you with control, and he should start to learn how to control himself a bit too, and what is acceptible and whats not.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> We live in a cul de sac in a fairly quiet area, a few cars max will drive past on the route we take, may take him elsewhere over weekend. When people approach him he's very exciteable, he will go to them and wag his tail. In the car he's very calm, he sits fairly still. The pups were in kennels when we viewed them, the adults were all in kennels, they had stable doors so we watched over the door they all sat and looked at us, my gf said as we walked in he got up in good time and approached us. I've e mailed ddb welfare for advice aswell. He's got the hump at the moment because he's been kicked off the sofa, I will say he's behaved fairly well today although my gf was playing with him, she stopped as she was distracted by tv and he nipped her and drew blood, seemed to try to get her attention again?!


Forgot about the going out too, Just carry on taking him out maybe somewhere different the weekend as you say, and continue to give him short regular walks exposing him gradually to more things slowly and on a regular basis. Try to keep a steady balance. Too much too soon can do harm, he needs to encounter and learn about things but not way and above what he can cope with or too much in one go. If he gets too much too soon and above his threashold to cope they can really start to go freaky, and some can even get phobic, then believe me thats not fun and tons more work especially if things like fear aggression comes with it. Ive been there done that and got the t-shirt with a nervous fear agressive dog, not fun.
So slow and steady a little bit of new stuff at a time adding things as he gets confidence and copes. If he stops pause just stand or sit, and let him look and weigh things up, then try to encourage him to go forward, with calm gentle words to encourage him and try the treats, good ones are usually cheese, chicken hot dogs, sausages and liver based stuff. If he wont take treats or food anytime that too can be a sign he is stressed or freaked or uncertain, a fearful dog wont take treats. Look at his body language too, if his tails tucked, ears flat and generally doesnt look happy and rooted to the spot be guided by what he is telling you.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

He came to a new years party with us last night, he walked to and from and was well behaved and spent the night playing with a JRT as well as cuddling lots of random people!. We've found he's happier to walk with the whole household, otherwise he lags and keeps staring back at our house, he honestly doesn't seem too fussed about walks, he would prefer to chill in the house. His nipping is slowly becoming less, but its still a bit of a problem. I walked him yesterday and somebody was walking a dog quite a distance behind, cooper knew this and dug in until they caught up and then approached the other dog and his owner tail wagging again, he doesn't seem shy of people or dogs. Hes off the sofa now but will growl if he tries to get up but is put back on the floor.

Ive contacted DDB welfare, she has mailed me back for my phone number so am expecting a call, will let you know!

Oh and Happy new year!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> He came to a new years party with us last night, he walked to and from and was well behaved and spent the night playing with a JRT as well as cuddling lots of random people!. We've found he's happier to walk with the whole household, otherwise he lags and keeps staring back at our house, he honestly doesn't seem too fussed about walks, he would prefer to chill in the house. His nipping is slowly becoming less, but its still a bit of a problem. I walked him yesterday and somebody was walking a dog quite a distance behind, cooper knew this and dug in until they caught up and then approached the other dog and his owner tail wagging again, he doesn't seem shy of people or dogs. Hes off the sofa now but will growl if he tries to get up but is put back on the floor.
> 
> Ive contacted DDB welfare, she has mailed me back for my phone number so am expecting a call, will let you know!
> 
> Oh and Happy new year!


It might have been the earlier first proper outings, they can get over whelmed by it all and get sensory over load and get a little freaked at first.
If his gaining confidence with more and more outings it does sound more likely thats all it was. Just be lead by his confidence and as he is Ok then introduce him to more and more new things and challenges. I only suggested taking a step back and doing it slowly just in case it turned out he was a bit of a nervous type and it was all going a bit too fast to cope with for him.

Glad you are seeing a difference, just be consistent, some are more determined and stubborn little devils but keep doing the training and it usually pays off.

Happy new year to you and your too.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Walked him today on my own in the drizzle, he was hard work 1st half and had to carry him a bit and lure him with ham!, the 2nd half he walked by my side and I kept praising him, he stops if he hears somebody or cars, suppose he's getting used to things.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

i have 2 bullmastiffs and 4 douge de bordeauxs 2 of the ddbs are puppies ages 5 months and sisters from the same litter the other 2 or male ddb that we rehomed recently 
ddbs can be vocal (ours tend to be all mouth no action with our bigger two but they do sound awful when they have a bit of a rucus) but all our dogs get on amazingly well 

from when our puppies were 8 weeks and 10 weeks we took them every where carrying them at first so that they got used to all the noise and hustle and bustle of every day life We would walk with them at there pace for 5 mins then sit down for 10 -15 mins or so and let them get use to everything 

On the weekends we would take them to the shopping center where we live there are lots of different noises, traffic, brass bands,(cos of xmas
) and loads of people and would just sit on a bench with them for 15 mins or so letting them get use to everything and sniffing around and people comming up to them and saying hello to them we would give them lots treats so that they associated this with nice things 
We have also taken them to the local markets which is great as its really busy and again they get use to all the loud noise from the marketsellers 

We did this every week from when we had them and still do it now only now we take them to pubs on the waterfront ( so we can have a beer ) where they sit and get used to the boats and noise and stuff 
What im trying to say is you dont have to walk them everywhere to train them initially and to get them use to every day life and get more confident if you have a shopping area which is busy then drive there and take the pup with you and just sit there for 20mins or so letting him get use to the buses and traffic and hustle and bustle You will get loads of people coming up to you asking you about the pup and its really really nice, you realize what a stunning dog you have 

Our pups are now 5 months old this has really really paid off 100 percent - They are very very well behaved puppies when we take them out and we often get comments on how calm and well behaved they are when we take them out and its a real pleasure to take them to places 

With ours though as we have so many we do have to be in charge otherwise they would run the house 
we dont let them on the sofas - how do we get a 80k dog of the sofa when they dont want to so we have a couple of quilts that they lay on when they are in the lounge 
But you do need to be firm with them otherwise they will rule the house and you as well which you dont want when they are 80++kg 
he probably didnt mean to draw blood they just dont know there own strength and they do have those awful needle teeth 
do you have a crate where you can get him to settle when you dont want him to play ect 


at the moment im trying to watch eastenders but with six dogs snoring and snorting its a hard job


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

just wanted to add we havnt had a problem with them nipping but they did go through a period of playfighting with each other and our youngest bullmastiff was there official babysitter as well sounded terrible but it sounds far worse than it was 
his starting and stopping is just him getting use to everything he is so young and everthing is new to him just perserve and keep strong

Hooker is our 1 year old ddb and we bought him 6 weeks ago age 11 months and he had never ever been on a lead before as his owners lived on a farm so excercised him off lead on their land. 
We couldnt even get him to walk up the car ramp to get him in our truck he just sat down and refused to move like a stroppy teenager So dh and i had to lift him in there and lift him out 
it was hysterical the first day we took him out it was like a terrified 8 week old puppy who was 8 bloodystone and didnt want to do bugger all 
DH almost had to carry him back from the first walk, and thought that Hooker was going to pass out on him with fear, but each day we took him out 3 times for 10 mins each time and within a week he had improved 100 percent on the lead We live in the city so busy main rds and lots of traffic is something our dogs have to get use to So we took him to busy main rds with loads of traffic and continued to give him lots of treats when crossing the rds so that he associates the noise and the traffic with treats and nothing to fear 
We then started to take him out on the 3rd day with our other ddb Shabba who is 2and a half and is firebomb proof with regard to taking him out so that Hooker could see that there wasnt a problem with walks on the lead

Now 6 weeks on we can now take him out with all our other dogs with no major problems to the pubs and the markets ect He is still a bit jumpy and when he sees a big open space he dose tend to try and go awol _ ( memories of when he was an off lead dog i guess_) but he is totally different to the dog we got about 6 weeks ago

Feel free to pm me or email me if you want to chat as have been through the ddb puppy stage recently and got through it ok


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Walked him today on my own in the drizzle, he was hard work 1st half and had to carry him a bit and lure him with ham!, the 2nd half he walked by my side and I kept praising him, he stops if he hears somebody or cars, suppose he's getting used to things.


Sounded better from your previous post, now you have said this in the later post he does still sound unsure. Anyone you know friends or family or neighbours you speak too nearby with dogs? Got to be a really stable confident dog though, but if you know of someone and such a dog, might be an idea to do accompnaied walks to get him going and be more relaxed.

Dont use a dog whos a shrinking violet and scared of things or unconfident though, he will just feed off it and it will make him worse.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for all that. He seems to want to go back to the house when we leave, but if everybody goes on the walk he's fine and happy to walk from house. My gf took him on the pushchair to playschool etc at 8 weeks. If you take his collar to remove him from sofa/living room if biting, he sometimes growls and attempts to bite, this worries me. We don't have a cage, we put him other side of stairgate in his bed, he then normally sulks, or whines.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

redginald said:


> Thanks for all that. He seems to want to go back to the house when we leave, but if everybody goes on the walk he's fine and happy to walk from house. My gf took him on the pushchair to playschool etc at 8 weeks. If you take his collar to remove him from sofa/living room if biting, he sometimes growls and attempts to bite, this worries me. We don't have a cage, we put him other side of stairgate in his bed, he then normally sulks, or whines.


If he growls at being dragged off why drag him? Surely it's easier to just encourage him down on his own... Ie train him and reward him for doing so. Plus this will make it easier when he's bigger!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Been playing with him this morning, he's in the living room with me and the kids, if my boy lies on the floor (normally having a tantrum) cooper sometimes tries to stand over him ?!, he's been in a playful mood, nipping at us all, I encouraged him to play with a cuddly toy which he did, he also bit me through my t shirt and drew blood, I told him to get out, at which point he attempts to hide, I picked him up to put him out and he snarled and snapped.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Been playing with him this morning, he's in the living room with me and the kids, if my boy lies on the floor (normally having a tantrum) cooper sometimes tries to stand over him ?!, he's been in a playful mood, nipping at us all, I encouraged him to play with a cuddly toy which he did, he also bit me through my t shirt and drew blood, I told him to get out, at which point he attempts to hide, I picked him up to put him out and he snarled and snapped.


Whats he like when you get the lead out to go for a walk, does he come and happily have the lead on and pleased and excited at the prospect or does he tried to avoid and run off? I know you said he doesnt want to leave the house, trys to go/run back home if he can, seems unsure, uncertain and even fearful of cars and certain things outside. Although seems in the main to be good with dogs and people mostly you meet.

I notice you said today he tried to hide when you told him out and then when you tried to move him physically he snapped and snarled. Like I said before its damn fraustrating on here because you cant see things.

Without going all over the posts to check, am I right in thinking that they were all in a stable type kennel outside when you saw them, and this is the breeder who had more then one litter? As you mentioned its a stable, Im assuming he came from quite a rural area and it was situated away from roads and traffic? If I remember rightly too you said that at first they all just sat there are looked at you when you approached? Im just beginning to wonder how much human contact and handling he did have up to the time you have got him. It doesnt sound like he was reared in the house or had possibly little time there. If he was in quiet surroudings up until you got him that would explain quite a bit, plunged suddenly into things in an urban area it would be a culture shock even though you started as soon as you got him.
Left in a kennel with littermates, and mum too for the correct amount of time would likely explain why his doggie socialisation is good or seems to be.
If he has had insufficient early handling and human interaction though it may explain a lot. If he was one of the more reserved pups in the litter too not the most out going or brave it may account why it would have more of an impact on his behaviour then a gung Ho take everything in its stried pup.

I may as they say be barking up the wrong tree im only going by things you have said, some of the behaviour will be just usual puppy behaviour and he just needs to be taught what is acceptable and what isnt. Im really beginning to wonder though, if a lot of this behaviour is because he is a stressy nervous pup and the snapping is being caused by it. If it is the case he is going to need careful habituation and socialisation and gentle but fair firm handling as I first thought. Make sure you make notes to discuss with the DDB lady when you speak to her including the rearing or as it appeared to be prior to when you got him. Depending on what you discuss and what she says it may even be an idea to ask if there are any really experienced DDB people fairly locally to you who might meet up and assess him and give you some hands on instruction. You may find there are some welfare volunteers local who would be happy too. Other then that its maybe a behaviourist and I know after Redds expensive chemo and just after christmas you may not be in a position to hire one or not at the moment.

As said though I could be entirely wrong. There are similarities though possibly to Coopers background/ behaviour to Kobis, thats why I asked the questions I did.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

redginald said:


> Been playing with him this morning, he's in the living room with me and the kids, if my boy lies on the floor (normally having a tantrum) cooper sometimes tries to stand over him ?!, he's been in a playful mood, nipping at us all, I encouraged him to play with a cuddly toy which he did, he also bit me through my t shirt and drew blood, I told him to get out, at which point he attempts to hide, I picked him up to put him out and he snarled and snapped.


Could you maybe try using a slip lead to put him out - then you don't need to grab him when he is already excitable / afraid and feeling defensive? Or leave a short, light houseline on his collar to again lead him out without having to grab him?


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

He was in stables, they lived in the sticks aswell, hes always seemed really good around people and other dogs though. When we get the lead he's not particularly excited, he doesn't seem particularly happy about it, his eyes dont light up like redds did. last night i took him down my road again, he just dug in and wanted to stay by the house, then a family came out of their house further down and he took interest and approached them and their small dog, the man then walked ahead with his dog and cooper was more keen to follow,sometimes he gets a bit of a flow and keeps walking nicely and i praise him as he does, but occassionly just freezes, normally if he hears somebody leaving their house etc, or a car he won't move until he's checked it out, sometimes he just freezes apparently for no reason.

We could try leaving the lead on him in house, sometimes he's really good, he can sit nicely and gently with either of my kids, other times he will run at them (kind of playfully) but nip a bit too much, if they lay on the floor he will jump on them and nip, i then have no choice but to tell him no and drag him off, im fair i dont throw him or anything cruel, i just grab him firmly and lead him out, but he will growl, and bite the air and snap. To be honest i dont want to have to pussy foot about him, a dog in my house should accept being lead by its owner away if its misbehaving without trying to bite the owner, i accept he may not like being taken by the collar, but ultimately if i have to grab my dog i should be able to without being bitten!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

redginald said:


> He was in stables, they lived in the sticks aswell, hes always seemed really good around people and other dogs though. When we get the lead he's not particularly excited, he doesn't seem particularly happy about it, his eyes dont light up like redds did. last night i took him down my road again, he just dug in and wanted to stay by the house, then a family came out of their house further down and he took interest and approached them and their small dog, the man then walked ahead with his dog and cooper was more keen to follow,sometimes he gets a bit of a flow and keeps walking nicely and i praise him as he does, but occassionly just freezes, normally if he hears somebody leaving their house etc, or a car he won't move until he's checked it out, sometimes he just freezes apparently for no reason.
> 
> We could try leaving the lead on him in house, sometimes he's really good, he can sit nicely and gently with either of my kids, other times he will run at them (kind of playfully) but nip a bit too much, if they lay on the floor he will jump on them and nip, i then have no choice but to tell him no and drag him off, im fair i dont throw him or anything cruel, i just grab him firmly and lead him out, but he will growl, and bite the air and snap. To be honest i dont want to have to pussy foot about him, a dog in my house should accept being lead by its owner away if its misbehaving without trying to bite the owner, i accept he may not like being taken by the collar, but ultimately if i have to grab my dog i should be able to without being bitten!


I understand what you are saying; but if he was mine I think that I would use a lead until he has been taught that being held and moved by his collar is not a bad thing. It sounds a little bit to me (bearing in mind my limited experience) that he is over his threshold of excitability and just reacts defensively. I would be worried that he will stop growling and air snapping and going straight for a bite if he thinks that his "I'm not comfortable" signals are being ignored if that's what they are - hard to know from posts!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> He was in stables, they lived in the sticks aswell, hes always seemed really good around people and other dogs though. When we get the lead he's not particularly excited, he doesn't seem particularly happy about it, his eyes dont light up like redds did. last night i took him down my road again, he just dug in and wanted to stay by the house, then a family came out of their house further down and he took interest and approached them and their small dog, the man then walked ahead with his dog and cooper was more keen to follow,sometimes he gets a bit of a flow and keeps walking nicely and i praise him as he does, but occassionly just freezes, normally if he hears somebody leaving their house etc, or a car he won't move until he's checked it out, sometimes he just freezes apparently for no reason.
> 
> We could try leaving the lead on him in house, sometimes he's really good, he can sit nicely and gently with either of my kids, other times he will run at them (kind of playfully) but nip a bit too much, if they lay on the floor he will jump on them and nip, i then have no choice but to tell him no and drag him off, im fair i dont throw him or anything cruel, i just grab him firmly and lead him out, but he will growl, and bite the air and snap. To be honest i dont want to have to pussy foot about him, a dog in my house should accept being lead by its owner away if its misbehaving without trying to bite the owner, i accept he may not like being taken by the collar, but ultimately if i have to grab my dog i should be able to without being bitten!


I understand what you are saying and I can see where the thinking comes from. There is a difference though in a pup who is just being a pushy over the top full on pain in the Butt, who is a bit full of himself, and needs boundaries and training put in place to let him know he has to do as his told, and unacceptable behaviour wont be tolerated and a fearful nervous pup/dog
that will snap and nip and even ultimately bite out of fear agression or re-directed fear aggresion. Yes they both need training and boundaries put in place, but done in the wrong way, you cannot get away with methods on a fearful unconfident pup that you can get away with on a fearful nervous or stressy pup. Thats what I was trying to say in earlier posts about, firm fair but gentler handling. Its a much finer balance to train a stressy nervous pup then a brave out going pup or it can be. I cant tell sitting here if that is the problem 100% but there seems hell a lot in his behaviour and background to over rule the possibility that some of it is out of stress, uncertainty or fear based. One thing though, he deffinately needs assessing and the problems whatever the cause start to be worked on sooner rather then later, while he is still of an age and size to do it easier.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

I've just got back from walking cooper with my kids, we took him to a local lake in the car, with the kids there he seems happier to walk along side us. He stopped a few times but it was a big walk, he met alot of dog walkers and bigger dogs and he was really well behaved. It was really muddy so I gave him a bath, he was calm in the bath, when it came to towel drying him he growled and snapped . It's probably Been a full on afternoon for him, my point is I dont expect to be bitten, as an adult he's going to have the odd day that may stress him a little, he shouldn't be snapping at anybody though. It's strange, we were spoiled with redd, in his 7 yrs I never saw any form of aggression from him, not once, if he was snapped at by dogs he would just walk away. I didn't buy a ddb as a status dog, I've always loved big dogs, most the research we put in suggested they were great with kids, high stimulus threshhold, calm, gentle can be defensive of family. This boy seems to have a temper


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

redginald said:


> I've just got back from walking cooper with my kids, we took him to a local lake in the car, with the kids there he seems happier to walk along side us. He stopped a few times but it was a big walk, he met alot of dog walkers and bigger dogs and he was really well behaved. It was really muddy so I gave him a bath, he was calm in the bath, when it came to towel drying him he growled and snapped . It's probably Been a full on afternoon for him, my point is I dont expect to be bitten, as an adult he's going to have the odd day that may stress him a little, he shouldn't be snapping at anybody though. It's strange, we were spoiled with redd, in his 7 yrs I never saw any form of aggression from him, not once, if he was snapped at by dogs he would just walk away. I didn't buy a ddb as a status dog, I've always loved big dogs, most the research we put in suggested they were great with kids, high stimulus threshhold, calm, gentle can be defensive of family. This boy seems to have a temper


Sounds like uncertainty rather than a temper is some respects to me. Kilo can be similar to Cooper it seems and certain things still freak him out; for example when I got his running harness delivered he backed off and air snapped if it went anywhere near him - from sheer uncertainty, he is not the sort of dog that can be pushed as he is very sensitive. It took 5 days of desensitisation until he would let me put the harness on without any uncertainty on his part. I COULD have forced the issue and got it on that first time I think - but why rush these things? He loves the harness going on now - whines and shoves his head through to get going.

I don't expect to get bitten either at all and I have had a few issues when he was younger with impulse control manifesting in jumping and mouthing and the odd occasion such as with his harness; I just go the long way round with things and help him gain confidence. He came from a good breeder who began his socialisation and I have dedicated part of every single day I have had him to socialisation (still do now) yet still he can be very unsure of certain things.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

To me, this dog sounds uncertain and anxious. You really have to stop being physical with him. You are not 'pussy footing' around him, this view comes from the typical macho bullshit we hear about training dogs from years ago and it just is not helpful. Sorry to be harsh, but you can't expect to have a good relationship with a dog if the dog is trying to communicate his anxieties to you, and they are not be listened to. 

Dogs do not have the ability to self-reflect and understand why you are removing them from the room or grabbing their collar, aggressive behaviour always has a genuine reason. This means that the more he tells you you are being threatening to him, and you carry on getting in his face, he is just learning that you are untrustworthy, unpredictable and dangerous and is, as a consequence, more likely to escalate his warnings to you. This is not 'dominance' or 'over-confidence'- animals do not act this way when they are over-confident!

You need to get him used to handling in a positive manner and build up his socialisation and impulse control. I seriously recommend getting a qualified, certified behaviourist in to help you and read up on positive behaviour modification methods, such as those that use clicker training. 

I would write more, but don't have the time currently. However, I can give you some helpful videos next time I'm here. :biggrin:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> I've just got back from walking cooper with my kids, we took him to a local lake in the car, with the kids there he seems happier to walk along side us. He stopped a few times but it was a big walk, he met alot of dog walkers and bigger dogs and he was really well behaved. It was really muddy so I gave him a bath, he was calm in the bath, when it came to towel drying him he growled and snapped . It's probably Been a full on afternoon for him, my point is I dont expect to be bitten, as an adult he's going to have the odd day that may stress him a little, he shouldn't be snapping at anybody though. It's strange, we were spoiled with redd, in his 7 yrs I never saw any form of aggression from him, not once, if he was snapped at by dogs he would just walk away. I didn't buy a ddb as a status dog, I've always loved big dogs, most the research we put in suggested they were great with kids, high stimulus threshhold, calm, gentle can be defensive of family. This boy seems to have a temper


TBH Im not altogether surprised you had a better walk today, even if you didnt have the kids I have a feeling he would have still walked better and been calmer on the whole, because it isnt such a challenging environment with so many scary things.

I would still love to know how much human handling he had up until you got him? I still think that could be a factor too.

The thing is with problem behaviour in dogs its not what the actual behaviour is and the individual responses/incidents you often need to look beyond what has happened at that exact time. All dogs humans whatever have threshold.
For some they can take a lot before they become reactive or get stressed.
Others it takes less.

If you think of stress as a scale of 1 to 10. One being calm. Up to No. 5 he may be able to cope, not entirely relaxed and happy with situations but he copes and carries on he is within his threshold to cope at the moment.
He goes out a car comes past, he reacts look scared like he does, goes up to a 3 on the stress scale but OK. Something else happens, he is already at 3, this now sends him up to 4. something else he is now a 5, he has hit threshold. Just about managing. They something happens and send him that bit more then he gets reactive.

You said he can be calm and really good, and you will likely find he will listen more and do his training etc etc. That maybe times he hasnt gone out and is within threshold. He will be going through critical phases of developement mentally now too, and fear periods can occur, that might not be helping the situation.

Trained and handled the right way now, the problems can be alleviated, Trained and Handled in the wrong way the problems can be exacerbated and made worse. At the crux of it all is assessment, once you know for certain if he is stressful dog or is at the moment and that is part/some of the behaviour its easier to sort. Some like I said is likely normal puppy over excited nippy behaviour at times too, I dont dout it.

Redd was probably a completely Bomb proof dog naturally, Labs are known for being laid back and soft in the main any way. With a large guarding breed they are likely to be a challenge more training wise etc. Ive had a samoyed, Siberians and Malamutes, and they are different and vary.

I agree he shouldnt be snapping at everyone, the problem is finding out why he is snapping, and how to go about the training in the right method so it doesnt happen or continue.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

What would be the best way to deal with something like the towel situation?, I'll be honest he growls when playing sometimes so may be reading him wrong, but sometimes you do feel he is trying to warn you. I carried on drying him on the thinking he will see there is nothing to be scared of, and I'm not scared of him. I thought if I backed off when he growled I may be telling him you growl Im scared, reinforcing that if he growls I will back off and he will get his own way?! I'm not cruel or particulary physical with him, we do rewards based training with him and have started making him work for stuff like suggested. I make him sit and stay before he is fed, alot of the time he's good as gold, but if he nips the kids hard that's it, I firmly tell him no and call him, If he continues he gets removed immidietly from the room, at which point he makes it clear he doesn't want to be removed. He doesn't appear particularly anxious, he's normally around us, and can normally be found chilling laying on his back?!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

redginald said:


> What would be the best way to deal with something like the towel situation?, I'll be honest he growls when playing sometimes so may be reading him wrong, but sometimes you do feel he is trying to warn you. I carried on drying him on the thinking he will see there is nothing to be scared of, and I'm not scared of him. I thought if I backed off when he growled I may be telling him you growl Im scared, reinforcing that if he growls I will back off and he will get his own way?! I'm not cruel or particulary physical with him, we do rewards based training with him and have started making him work for stuff like suggested. I make him sit and stay before he is fed, alot of the time he's good as gold, but if he nips the kids hard that's it, I firmly tell him no and call him, If he continues he gets removed immidietly from the room, at which point he makes it clear he doesn't want to be removed. He doesn't appear particularly anxious, he's normally around us, and can normally be found chilling laying on his back?!


Kilo used to hate the towel. I dealt with it how I deal with everything...slowly, calmly and with food! Cooper does sound a similar character in some respects - Kilo's current nemesis is the tape measure . He is very calm and chilled around the house but very sensitive to environmental changes or new 'things' at times.

I used to show him the towel - treat. Let him come to the towel - treat. Touch the towel - treat. Touch one of his paws with the towel - treat.

You get the picture....takes a few days of very short sessions until the towel becomes a good thing and you can towel all over with no objections. Kilo loves getting dried now and leans on me to do it whereas he used to snatch his paws away, run from it or snap at the towel.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

Ive just skimmed through this thread, but have seen enough alluding to these are big dogs you have to show em whos boss attitude that I feel the need to comment.

redginald, I think you need to reflect for a moment how you want to relate to your dog for the rest of his life. I have giant breed dogs, I work with giant breed rescue. If you view every conflict with your dog as a battle of wills that must be won, however gently, you set up the relationship with your dog as one of confrontation rather than cooperation. Also know that when your DDB hits his teenage phase, you will effectively set yourself up for a lot of head butting. Its no coincidence that so many slow to mature giant breeds end up in rescue around 10month to 2 years.

If on the other hand you set your relationship up with your dog to be one of cooperation (instead of confrontation) you will have a willing partner for life.

Every time you find yourself in a conflict situation with your dog, think of how you can de-escalate the situation rather than win. 

So take the towel incident. Dog growls, you think if I stop he will get away with growling. Dog is thinking I told him nicely (by growling) that Im not comfortable, but he didnt listen so I had to snap so he would understand I dont like it." 
What if instead you stop toweling him when he growls (acknowledge that you heard him expressing his discomfort). Get a reward of some sort (small pieces of cheese maybe) and hold it in such a way that he has to nibble and lick it out of your fingers. As hes nibbling, gently dry him off. Help him make a positive association with being dried off, with being handled in general. No, you will not have to give him treats forever to be toweled, youre simply switching gears in his brain so that he doesnt see the toweling as something scary and unsetting. You still get the dog dried off, AND you dont silence his early warning system. Especially with kids in the house I would hate to have a dog who doesnt growl and just bites instead!

Theres a lot more, but I think instead I will just suggest two very wonderful books - Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier, and The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. They will give you great insight in to how dogs really think and how we can best form a willing partnership with them.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Theres a lot more, but I think instead I will just suggest two very wonderful books - Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier, and The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. They will give you great insight in to how dogs really think and how we can best form a willing partnership with them.


I love those books and am clearly not a trainer or particularly knowledgeable at all, but also really rate 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson for an 'insight' into behaviour.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

im not hugely knowlegable about dog training or what goes on in there heads  - my husband dose all the training in our house with the dogs but what i have learnt is when there is an incident that your not happy with you want to look at the whole thing and not just the incident as it is

When our two male ddb were having a few problems With the elder dog bullying the younger newer dog. We narrowed it down to Shabba the older more dominent dog disliking DH petting and paying attention to the younger newer male dog he wasnt bothered about the other dog untill dh would pet him, so we ensured that every time we petted Hooker, Shabba had a even bigger fuss made of him, gave him treats to be postive 
lots of people would have said get rid of one or rehome one of them but that wasnt an option as far as we were concerned 
Also they were both entire males ( getting them castrated has calmed them both down) and we walked them loads together to make it postive

So if he is nipping when playing with the kids or playing with you,then this is what i would see as the key element - what i mean is the playing over exciting him to much so he snaps and growls with excitement ive had the odd mistaken nip from my puppies when they were playing

but ddbs are quite timid and easily startled ( well mine are) which makes them excellent guard dogs but it can easily lead to aggression quickly as well

how a old are your kids, are they annoying him and taking it to far and then when they want to stop playing, Copper is over excited and cant calm down straight away he is still in full on mode

what i mean is maybe Copper see the kids as equal to him and the kids energy will run out quicker than Coopers will 
With our puppies we let our bullmastiff play with them to wear them out when we first had them there was no way we could keep them occupied the way they wanted to play and we had two of them _( we called them the f....kies rather than the puppies cos they were so naughty sometimes when playing ) _

it may be that Cooper sees them as another playfull puppy our puppies are quite rough with each other and the noise they can make is loud and aggressive but they are not being aggressive just playing with each other and mouthing each other

with the towel i would place treats on it and get him to eat the treats or one of his toys so that he see the towel as something postive and not to be scared off 
also with dogs any dogs not every day will be perfect if you walk them 7 days a week you might find that 4 are great 2 are ok and 1 is damm right awfull but the more you do it the better it becomes for both of you

With regards to reading the body language when our are scared or feeling annoyed with each other - you can see it in their body really clearly - they go really stiff and there tails go right up - imagine a cobra getting ready to strike that what our go like if they feel threatened or scared


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Cheers all!, I'm kind of getting what people are saying, would I be right in saying what I've just done is the right idea?, cooper was trying to get on the sofa, rather than drag him off it saying off, I lured him off with a treat whilst saying off, I also redirected him to his bed. It took a few attempts but he's asleep in his bed now I also just walked him down the street again, it took about 15 mins of luring him to get him about 20 metres from the house, then he insisted on trying to walk home. Eventually I had to pick him up and walk him 20 metres and put him down, he was then fine. Then we get to an alley and he freezes there alot, I carried him through it, he then walked brilliantly to heel the rest of the way (70% of the walk) ?! Think it's just going to be repitition. As for clicker training we started using one to reinforce good behaviour aswell as treats, it seemed to work but we gave up on it as kept finding we would find ourselves in a situation where he needed praise but didn't have clicker to hand, we decided to stop to prevent confusion.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> What would be the best way to deal with something like the towel situation?, I'll be honest he growls when playing sometimes so may be reading him wrong, but sometimes you do feel he is trying to warn you. I carried on drying him on the thinking he will see there is nothing to be scared of, and I'm not scared of him. I thought if I backed off when he growled I may be telling him you growl Im scared, reinforcing that if he growls I will back off and he will get his own way?! I'm not cruel or particulary physical with him, we do rewards based training with him and have started making him work for stuff like suggested. I make him sit and stay before he is fed, alot of the time he's good as gold, but if he nips the kids hard that's it, I firmly tell him no and call him, If he continues he gets removed immidietly from the room, at which point he makes it clear he doesn't want to be removed. He doesn't appear particularly anxious, he's normally around us, and can normally be found chilling laying on his back?!


Again I can see your thought that if he growls and you back off then it has worked. Growling though is also away of telling you he is uncomfortable,
you could ignore it and carry on, trouble is it may then drive the dog to something more to make himself heard. that is how people mostly get bitten. Ignore dogs body language, then the growl, so the dog then can go to bite. 
Ignored enough, or punished for it next time the dog might not even bother, and just bite. Its often how accidents happen.

Deffinately carry on with the reward based training and dont forget to praise him and tell him he is a good boy when he is being calm and doing the stuff you want. If he is laying on the floor with a toy or chew praise him then.
Behaviour you dont want like the jumping up, getting hyper and biting too hard, ignore it give him nothing. Done consistently and every time, he will soon cotton on, being calm and doing as asked is a lot more rewarding.

Ideally he needs to start being handled every day and even brushing him with a soft brush and stroking him with a towel is good. Best time is when he is relaxed and calm not hyped up. Use the treats and praise when he is calm.
Kobi hated grooming, I initially got round it by giving him a stuffed Kong. Gradually I found I could groom him for longer and longer before I had to use the Kong or treats. I used to use the treats as a lure. Have them in one had and groom with the other or tbh once he got a kong with a really good filling he couldnt care less what I was doing to him Just start with very gentle soft smooth strokes with the brush or towel. Actually if you used really brisk rubs today and waved the towel a bit in the process he could well have seen it as a game and some of it may have been over excitement and got him hyper too.

The ideally the idea is to make him want to work and please you.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Beginning to see what you mean, it's simple really isn't it, sometimes feels like you are going against your instincts though. I put him on a lead to toilet in the garden and he has no problems (somebody suggested the lead in the garden) his toilet training is getting better, he still goes in the house now and again but I think that's me not reading the signs more than anything else. When I'm walking him if he walks beside me I keep saying good boy and treating him. When using a clicker would you click every few secs whilst walking? When he does walk he's good, he walks beside me, redd pulled me all the way!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

This is going to be a long post, but hopefully it's helpful! These are my own thoughts on the matter, I could be wrong. What would be really helpful is if you could post a couple of videos of him doing the behaviours. 



redginald said:


> What would be the best way to deal with something like the towel situation?, I'll be honest he growls when playing sometimes so may be reading him wrong, but sometimes you do feel he is trying to warn you. I carried on drying him on the thinking he will see there is nothing to be scared of, and I'm not scared of him. I thought if I backed off when he growled I may be telling him you growl Im scared, reinforcing that if he growls I will back off and he will get his own way?! I'm not cruel or particulary physical with him, we do rewards based training with him and have started making him work for stuff like suggested. I make him sit and stay before he is fed, alot of the time he's good as gold, but if he nips the kids hard that's it, I firmly tell him no and call him, If he continues he gets removed immidietly from the room, at which point he makes it clear he doesn't want to be removed. He doesn't appear particularly anxious, he's normally around us, and can normally be found chilling laying on his back?!


_Towel situation _
- As Ouesi posted above, you need to teach Cooper that having this strange object rubbed on his body is a sign of good things. So, rewarding him with food as soon as he pays any attention to the towel or as soon as you put it on his body, and taking it off his body (or moving it away) as soon as you've fed him, will teach him that the towel = positive things. Dogs learn via association (maybe not everything is learnt this way, but for your purposes, it is the most important!) so if a stimulus (whether person, another dog, a smell, a sound etc) appears, that stimulus is associated with its consequences. If that consequence is food or a toy or praise (note, food and toys are the most interesting and reinforcing to a dog generally) then the dog is going to enjoy the presence of that stimulus a lot more. Check out this video for something similar:
Dog Aggressive for Toenail Trim | drsophiayin.com - YouTube

_If he growls, is he getting his own way?_
- Technically, yes! When he growls, that growling is getting rewarded by the pure fact that the scary, unnerving, or anxiety-inducing experience (e.g. the towel) has been removed. So he learns that when a towel is moving towards him, or is placed on him, and he wants it away because he feels uncomfortable, growling will make it go away. However (and this is a big however!), you need to see the bigger picture. His underlying emotion is anxiety or fear, and so you need to work to change that emotional response (known as a Conditioned Emotional Response or CER) that is underlying the behaviour you see (growling). By punishing him (e.g. taking him out the room) he is not learning that toweling is a good experience, but it will be rewarding him as he most probably wants to be away from the towel at this time. However, if you punish him by taking him out the room by his collar, holding his collar will most probably heighten his stress levels and make him react to more easily, e.g. by snapping at you, or even trying to bite you, when you grab his collar. He doesn't know why you are doing this, only knows he is scared and anxious, and you are manhandling him.



redginald said:


> Cheers all!, I'm kind of getting what people are saying, would I be right in saying what I've just done is the right idea?, cooper was trying to get on the sofa, rather than drag him off it saying off, I lured him off with a treat whilst saying off, I also redirected him to his bed. It took a few attempts but he's asleep in his bed now I also just walked him down the street again, it took about 15 mins of luring him to get him about 20 metres from the house, then he insisted on trying to walk home. Eventually I had to pick him up and walk him 20 metres and put him down, he was then fine. Then we get to an alley and he freezes there alot, I carried him through it, he then walked brilliantly to heel the rest of the way (70% of the walk) ?! Think it's just going to be repitition. As for clicker training we started using one to reinforce good behaviour aswell as treats, it seemed to work but we gave up on it as kept finding we would find ourselves in a situation where he needed praise but didn't have clicker to hand, we decided to stop to prevent confusion.


_Getting him off the couch_
- Well done! This is exactly the type of approach you need. By teaching him an 'Off' command you are going to to be teaching him what you want him to do, rather than purely just what you don't want him to do. What's more, because he is being trained with rewards, he is going to enjoy following your behaviour cues, and will be more likely to do them in the future if they are beneficial for him too. You can do little sessions each day with him for 5-10 mins, having some of his daily meal food or something nicer, and getting him to jump on the couch (by encouraging him) and then lure him off with a treat and reward him when he does so. Repeat this a number of times until he begins to follow your hand off the couch without food in your hand, but then you reward him immediately with food when he gets off (you just aren't luring him with food now). Then, simply begin to say the command 'Off' when he's on the couch, immediately do the hand signal of getting off the couch (e.g. pointing to the floor) and reward immediately with food (a number of pieces) when he does so. Now he learns that it is much more rewarding to be off the couch than on it. Be sure to play games and variably reward whenever he's on the floor too, to teach him how much you like him being on the floor!

_Stopping whilst walking_
-This does sound like some anxiety, but a video of him doing it would be great. Luring him is okay, but be careful not to begin bribing him where he only moves for food. Luring him implies teaching a behaviour by getting him to follow food, but gradually phasing out the food from your hand and only rewarding once the behaviour is done. I would begin by walking around the house with a lead on and rewarding him with the lead attached and whenever he's walking by your side. Progress to the garden, then the driveway, then the street, then down the street etc. Build focus by rewarding him for ANY eye contact with you whilst on lead. You can use a toy, like a tug toy, too for a huge reward!

_Clicker training_
- I think clicker training would have a lot to offer you with for your dog's problems. You do not need to always have a clicker on you, the most important thing is to make sure you always reward with food after you click. Food will always be food and thus will always be rewarding to your dog, if he likes it, so you don't need to worry if you don't have the clicker on you. However, clicker training will help in teaching new behaviours or working on current behavioural issues massively. Here are some videos to help you:

Teaching "Off" - YouTube (teaching 'Off' with clicker)

Dog training: Mat, Drop on Recall + Heel (higherquality) - YouTube (teaching 'Go To Mat' similar to 'Bed' which you can use to when he gets over-excited. But don't use it as a punishment, use it as a distraction and reward him when he does so!)

How to train your dog to relax for nail clipping - YouTube (this is on nail clipping, but imagine you are using a towel!)

Stop puppies biting- clicker dog training - YouTube (stopping puppy mouthing. If you do a few sessions each day of these kind of exercises, you can stop puppy mouthing, particularly if you do stupid, exciting things around them and they get rewarded for not getting over excited)

There's loads more, but hopefully this has been helpful!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

redginald said:


> ...we've tried to socialise him as much as we can, [we] had a *birthday party* when he was 10-WO...
> at our house, & Cooper was in our busy house & was settled... even fell asleep on busy kitchen floor.


i wouldn't call that 'socializing',  i'd have probably called it 'flooding'.

just bringing in hordes of people, whether adults or kids, is not 'socializing'. 
it has to be a CONTROLLED, happy experience. 


redginald said:


> I've also taken him to work and he's behaved well.
> We don't leave him with kids... when supervised he can be good with them
> but *normally [he tries] to play-fight with them as he does [with] me & my GF.*


i'd stop all play-fighting - ALL of it; no grabby stuff, no wrestling, no ear or neck grabs, no rumpling the neck, 
no play-slaps on his neck or face or side or rump... ZERO.

play-fighting ELICITS bites & mouthing; IOW, it triggers grabby, bitey behavior. 
so don't do that - At all. If the play-fighting or wrestling continue, DON'T BLAME THE PUPPY.

if guests attempt to play-fight, wrestle, play grabby games, etc, i'd REMOVE THE PUPPY.

this pup doesn't need to be confused by deliberate triggering of his natural puppy-mouthing. 
he needs to learn solid bite-inhibition.

i'd also suggest the 2 FREE books found on DogStar Daily website - Look under *'free downloads'*. 
they include many excellent training & socialization tips, & are especially good for teaching a soft-mouth.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Cheers for the info, been watching the vids and they are helpful will watch them again I started teaching him "off" by luring him from sofa or our bed with a treat saying off and then treating him when on the floor, will get the clicker back out and follow some of these tips aswell. He's already learned sit,down,come and stay although not 100% but getting there. In regards to the party we were having it either way, i felt it was better he was present rather than shut away, Redd our lab would have been kept away or taken to another house for a party as a pup, i feel this lead to him being over exciteable in these situations as an adult. Cooper could have had his own space during the party but he chose to mingle and seemed very relaxed.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

HI 

Didnt realise from your post your just up the rd from me Im in bristol really close to the train station temple meads as well, 
So if your ever want to take Cooper out for a walk with a few or even one of ours do let me know 
i could make it to somewhere halfway as well like chippenham or somewhere else in between swindon/bristol most weekends i am away though next week for a few weeks but the offer is there for when i come back if you want it 

i have two female sister douge de bordeaux puppies age 5 months called Spooks and Narca and 2 male douge de bordeaux called Shabba and Hooker who are 2and a half and 1 years old and two bullmastiffs called gem and chullo who are 16 months and 8 years old 
They are all very very well behaved dogs with no behaviour problems with other dogs 

although the puppies have been renamed th f....kies by my teenage son and his friends cos they ripped his trainer ups a few months back 
but he shouldnt leave them lying around 
or should you ever get to Bristol with cooper drop me a pm before you head down


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

HI 

Didnt realise from your post your just up the rd from me Im in bristol really close to the train station temple meads as well, 
So if your ever want to take Cooper out for a walk with a few or even one of ours do let me know 
i could make it to somewhere halfway as well like chippenham or somewhere else in between swindon/bristol most weekends i am away though next week for a few weeks but the offer is there for when i come back if you want it 

i have two female sister douge de bordeaux puppies age 5 months called Spooks and Narca and 2 male douge de bordeaux called Shabba and Hooker who are 2and a half and 1 years old and two bullmastiffs called gem and chullo who are 16 months and 8 years old 
They are all very very well behaved dogs with no behaviour problems with other dogs 

although the puppies have been renamed th f....kies by my teenage son and his friends cos they ripped his trainer ups a few months back 
but he shouldnt leave them lying around 
or should you ever get to Bristol with cooper drop me a pm to get my mobile before you head down


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Not far at all, if I'm around your neck of the woods may let you know in advance! My gf done the playschool walk with him today and he was apparently very good. It seems if the kids are with him he's more keen to just walk rather than hang around or dig in?! Going to go through a few of the routines this eve and see how it goes!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Walked cooper last night, he was very difficult 1st 1/4 of the walk again, I ended up carrying him to bottom of 1st road then he walked on his own. When he walks he is very good, walks beside me mostly and seems to sniff about occasionally. I click him and say good boy regulary when he's walking correctly, my problem is I want to teach him to walk to heel, he sort of naturally does, but I can't get his attention whilst he's walking, I had a squeaky toy and food but he just walks (nicely however) but to teach a dog to heel I'm aware you basically hold his attention whilst walking. Would you worry about it yet? Should I keep walking him as it is hoping he gradually becomes more relaxed and easier to train? I know he doesn't pull much now but in back of my mind it could be that he's small and my strides are long and as he gets bigger I'm going to be dragged along by a dog weighing the same as me


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> Walked cooper last night, he was very difficult 1st 1/4 of the walk again, I ended up carrying him to bottom of 1st road then he walked on his own. When he walks he is very good, walks beside me mostly and seems to sniff about occasionally. I click him and say good boy regulary when he's walking correctly, my problem is I want to teach him to walk to heel, he sort of naturally does, but I can't get his attention whilst he's walking, I had a squeaky toy and food but he just walks (nicely however) but to teach a dog to heel I'm aware you basically hold his attention whilst walking. Would you worry about it yet? Should I keep walking him as it is hoping he gradually becomes more relaxed and easier to train? I know he doesn't pull much now but in back of my mind it could be that he's small and my strides are long and as he gets bigger I'm going to be dragged along by a dog weighing the same as me


To be honest Kobi Malamute walked really good right from a pup never pulled and to this day never has. If he is walking well on a loose lead naturally then really doesnt sound there is that much to teach at the moment. As long as he is walking well for whatever reason, just praise and treat if/when he will take it to reinforce that its the behaviour you want. If later he does start to walk not quite so nicely then the minute he lapses then correct it if need be.
As they say if it aint broke dont try and fix it Or thats my opinion anyway for what its worth


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

That's good, he won't take treats but I click and praise, on the last stretch he sometimes pulls so I stop everytime and won't walk until lead is slack will go with this for now


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

redginald said:


> That's good, he won't take treats but I click and praise, on the last stretch he sometimes pulls so I stop everytime and won't walk until lead is slack will go with this for now


If he is walking good mostly and the minute he doesnt you have it sussed what stops him (ie the stopping and not walkin on until he stops pulling and walks nic ely) I would say its doing the job!!


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Just spoke to ddb welfare lady, she was helpful. She basically said it's doesn't sound like aggression, and to take control and stop him whilst he's biting, she did say leading him out by collar won't help I have to be firmer with this breed. She said the freezing on walks is fairly normal, it's how I would act if I was dropped on mars. She said it's important to socialise him and always walk him on lead, mainly because he may not pick a fight bought he will surely finish it. It's safer on lead, if he's ever in a serious fight it will be him that's punished.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

redginald said:


> ...spoke to Dogue-welfare lady, she was helpful.
> ...basically said it doesn't sound like aggro, and [that i should] *take control & stop him whilst he's biting*...


WHOA -  what does that phrase in BOLD-type mean?

just HOW are U spozed to 'stop him whilst he's biting'...? 


redginald said:


> ...she [claimed] leading him out [of the area] by his collar won't help, [that] I have to be firmer with a DDB.


bullcr*p, IMO; claiming _*'U have to be firmer with ____ [breed of choice]'*_ is absolutely untrue.

FIRMER usually is politically-correct labeling for forceful, aversive, punitive, harsh, etc. 
it won't help; in fact, _*firmer*_ usually has bad side-effects, which can neither be predicted 
nor prevented; they aren't immediate, but become apparent over days, weeks or months later.

OTOH, a *TIME-OUT* is a perfectly acceptable consequence for painful bites by a pup, 
& time-out WON'T cause bad behavioral-fallout that aversives [smack, grab muzzle / hold jaws shut, 
flick nose painfully with a snapped-finger, etc] can result in.

i would only change LEADING BY THE COLLAR - i wouldn't do that, as it makes reaching for his collar 
the prelude to a bad-thing; i'd have him drag his leash & use the leash, OR i'd have a hang-tab on his collar, 
which can be a 2-ft long hunk of bike-cable - or a super-short traffic-style lead, or a piece of sash-cord, 
anything light & durable will work.

Pick up the hang-tab / dragging leash & use IT, not his collar, to escort him to his time-out area. 
His crate can be used for time-outs, WHICH ARE VERY SHORT - a minute is usually too long, 
30-seconds of time-out is plenty, then he's *released for another opp to sin again - * the rapid release 
& equally-rapid next offense teach him the connection, _"I bite? 
I go into solitary."_ if he's in time-out for 60-secs & begins to fuss, he'll have entirely forgotten 
WHAT caused the time-out; he's only frustrated by being confined.

Immediate, SHORT time-outs [with immediate-opps to sin again] give him the info to understand WHAT 
triggers a time-out: his own bites = time-out, & when he doesn't bite, or if he only mouths gently 
& appropriately, he STAYS out with everyone else; games, fun, & social-companionship continue. :001_smile:



redginald said:


> She said it's important to socialise him & always walk him on lead, mainly because he may not pick a fight
> [but] he'll surely finish [one]. It's safer [if he's leashed], [as] *if he's ever in a serious fight,
> it will be him that's punished.*


huh?... 
what does _*'He'll be the one punished'*_ mean?

Who will punish him? 
the other dog?  i don't understand. Please explain?


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Cheers for the info, I was a little dubious myself of the "firm" handling, I've not carried anything like that out. I will say he is very stubborn and will only participate in training if he's in the mood no matter what treats are on offer, this makes things difficult. As for the punishment statement, this basically meant if my dogue and another dog are involved in a serious fight regardless of who instigated it in her experience the larger dog is always the one that is pts


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

i wonder how that stands though if you dog is on a lead and another dog is off lead and comes up to your dog and your dog attacks it 
who is in the wrong you cos your dog attack the dog ( whos not on a lead) or the person whos dog is off lead


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

charlearose said:


> ...if [your] dog is [leashed] & another dog is off-lead & [approaches] your dog,
> [& Ur leashed-dog] attacks [the other dog],
> who is in the wrong?
> 
> ...


any dog who is OFF-leash can flee from a dog who is leashed - 
& generally, the dog who's off-leash can read the intentions or emotions of the leashed dog sufficiently 
that s/he won't get within biting distance if s/he feels unwelcome or threatened.

that means there's rarely a sustained ATTACK - there might be a snap, a snark, or a single bite, 
but the dog who's off-leash CAN WALK [or run] AWAY; the leashed dog can't - they're constrained 
by the leash & their handler's control.


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## charlearose (Sep 18, 2011)

ah thanks for that just wondered as ours are always kept on the lead

my dogs shabba chullo spooks and narca

View attachment 81938


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Try this with Cooper 
Nothing in Life is Free
It's what we have used with the Mals, they too are a stubbourn breed and need firm handling, especially when young. These guys rarely get anything without doing something for it, even being let out to pee they have to sit first. They have to make eye contact when I have their food bowl and again once I have put it on the floor and they don't attempt to touch it until they're told. It's lovely to see a dog that respects you and Cooper needs to realise he gets nothing for free.


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## redginald (Aug 18, 2011)

Sounds a good plan, we already make him sit and stay when putting his food down, will apply it to more things aswell


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