# Good Non-Prescription food for struvite crystals



## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

Hi,
Im looking for a good food alternative to perscription food. my vet wants me to feed kitty hills cd for the rest of his life but I dont like the ingredients and although i believe its good for a while I dont think he should eat it for the rest of his life.
I'm looking for a Grain Free High Quality Food(no fish flavour).
Anyone here has experience and recommendations to this topic?


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## mezzer (Oct 6, 2009)

Porta 21 Feline Sensible...it's grain free and I believe around 49% protein content...you can find it on Zooplus website


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## ibbica (Aug 9, 2010)

ge_ch said:


> Hi,
> Im looking for a good food alternative to perscription food. my vet wants me to feed kitty hills cd for the rest of his life but I dont like the ingredients and although i believe its good for a while I dont think he should eat it for the rest of his life.
> I'm looking for a Grain Free High Quality Food(no fish flavour).
> Anyone here has experience and recommendations to this topic?


Kibble or wet? I wouldn't suggest dry food at all for a cat with urinary tract problems... wet's much safer, as it ensures they get enough moisture.

Have you checked the "A-Z" lists at the top of this forum? Includes TONS of great information, as well as a 'bottom line' for each food (if you don't want to get bogged down by the details) 

We feed our kitties a rotation... all grain-free except the Grau:

Cans: Animonda Carny, Bozita, Grau (contains a small amount of rice), and Smilla

Kibble (avoid or feed only sparingly to cats with UT problems): Acana, Applaws, Orijen, and Porta 21 Feline Finest Sensible


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

thank you both for the info and suggestions
the vets here are useless, not helpfull at all, he told me to feed the hills cd dry and everything will be fine. kitty had crystals 3times in 6years. I'm convinced it has something to do with stress and changes in the enviroment because he was fine for 3 years inbetween eating non-prescription food.
I researched the internet and found lots of good suggestions:
grain free, high meat content, no fish flavors, mostly or completely wet. I also stopped free feeding and got good clumping litter to keep an eye on how often and how much he pees.
I already replaced half of his daily meal with orijen(morning and afternoon) with some water added to it and he gets hills cd wet in the evening.
I had planned of slowly replacing the hills wet with applaws wet (he's getting it once a week at the moment) but after reading in this forum that its only a compementary food, I would prefer to switch to another brand.
I think I will try Bozita and Porta 21.
Does anyone know what to look for in the analysis? What's important to avoid crystals and keep the urin ph level up?
Is it the ash and magnesium level that should be low?


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

This might help 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/111155-sensible-question-hobbs-food.html


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Not sure whether you saw this: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/129541-need-advice-canned-food.html

At the end of the day, those prescription foods work for both types of crystals. You can do it without recourse to those foods but you are taking on quite a responsibility as crystals in male cats in particular can be life-threatening as Dally Banjo can attest to.

As far as I am aware, the current thinking has shifted from magnesium as something to control. Instead attention has shifted to the ph content of the urine. As I say in the other thread, there are supplements available for cats who don't eat those prescription foods, so talk to your vet about those. The will make the urine more acidic.

IMO, if you go down that route your best advised to get some ph strips so that you can test the urine because the one thing you don't want is to go the other way and end up with oxalate stones.

I have said this in the other post to you, I wouldn't be too worried about the mineral content of the wet food at this point but I would be more careful with the mineral content in the dry food as this is still the mainstay of your cats' diet. Orijen is comparatively high in calcium, phosphorus etc. Overall, their food contains 8% ash and the kibble ph is 5.

As I said, I would be inclined to move to another food regardless.

NB: Ash is the mineral content of the food if the food were incinerated. So, that includes the calcium, phosphorus, magnesium etc.


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

ge_ch said:


> Hi,
> Im looking for a good food alternative to perscription food. my vet wants me to feed kitty hills cd for the rest of his life but I dont like the ingredients and although i believe its good for a while I dont think he should eat it for the rest of his life.
> I'm looking for a Grain Free High Quality Food(no fish flavour).
> Anyone here has experience and recommendations to this topic?


Our cat pebbles has the same problem. Was put on hills s/d first then moved over to hills c/d long term. However after 2-3 years of this I'm not sure if this is best for her anymore. Plus we have 2 other (badly behaved) cats and deparate feeding is a nightmare, so they all get fed the same.. hlls c/d.

After reading through this thread and a few other sites I'm now considering:

- Porta 21 Feline Finest Sensible (dry food, grain free) for general feeding. Will put this into their food bowl that is left out during the day for them to help themselves.

- Hills C/d 85g wet food pouches, for Pebbles once a day in addition to the dry food.

- Hi Life wet food pouches (60% meat) for Smurf and Cocat once a day in addition to dry food.

We have one of the water fountain drinking bowls next to their food which we find they drink from quite a lot, so I don't think water intake is too much of an issue.

Is this a good/bad idea? is this something you'd consider _ge_ch_?


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

thank you,i read through all the other posts.
last time kitty was blocked I went to all the vets in the area but they all say the same: just keep feeding prescription dry food. When I asked about feeding wet, or feeding high quality other food and add supplement to prevent crystals, they all just looked at me weird. I'm not sure is it a lack of knowledge, lazyness or just pure money making but none of them is helpful. one vet even laughed when I told him I got a water fountain to encourage kitty drinking enough water. it's just so frustrating.
another problem I had with the hills is that it made kitty put on a lot of weight even though he didnt even got the full recommended amount. it didnt really satisfy his hunger because he kept begging for more all day. I know that other people have the same experience.

re orijen: this is on their website
Q: URINARY HEALTH - Does ORIJEN promote urinary health?

Yes. Due to the high meat content and low magnesium content, ORIJEN is naturally acidic and helps promote a healthy bladder.

ORIJEN foods have a pH of about 5.5, which is naturally mildly acidic and well suited to the maintenance of healthy bladder function in both cats and dogs.

I also read that orijen is high in natural GLUCOSAMINE/CHONDROITIN, which helps strengthen the bladderwalls. 

this whole food thing is so confusing


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

PeteJC21 said:


> Our cat pebbles has the same problem. Was put on hills s/d first then moved over to hills c/d long term. However after 2-3 years of this I'm not sure if this is best for her anymore. Plus we have 2 other (badly behaved) cats and deparate feeding is a nightmare, so they all get fed the same.. hlls c/d.
> 
> After reading through this thread and a few other sites I'm now considering:
> 
> ...


pete:
the vet said its no problem to feed healthy cats the cd. As I said it the other post it made them both put on loads of weight and they never seemed as healthy, happy and active as on the orijen.
I have the two cats and a dog and feed them all in separate rooms. took a while to get used to it but all of them know the routine now and go to their bowls as soon as I take out the food. It takes me less time than before because I dont have to separate them and there is no stealing food from the others.You should give it a try.
I bought a waterfountain after the last blockage but since I add water to his meal he doesnt drink much extra water. He was never fond of waterbowls anyway, LOVES drinking from the tap. I still leave out waterbowls in nearly every room.
have a look at this website,its very interesting Good Food For Cat With Struvite Crystals?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

PeteJC21 said:


> Our cat pebbles has the same problem. Was put on hills s/d first then moved over to hills c/d long term. However after 2-3 years of this I'm not sure if this is best for her anymore. Plus we have 2 other (badly behaved) cats and deparate feeding is a nightmare, so they all get fed the same.. hlls c/d.
> 
> After reading through this thread and a few other sites I'm now considering:
> 
> ...


Ok, speaking bluntly, not something I would consider. Particularly the move on to Porta 21 Sensible, which is a great food in any other circumstance but not yours I'm afraid as it sounds as though it would be the mainstay of your cats' diet.

It may be grain-free but here it is why it isn't really suited for a cat with a known FLUTD history

Hills C/D mineral content (DMA): Calcium 0.76%, Phosphorus: 0.65%, Magnesium 0.06. Not sure about the ph of the kibble but should be around the 5 mark

Porta 21 Sensible: Calcium 2,4% , Phosphorus 1,47%, Magnesium 0,11%. You would be advised to email the manufacturers for the kibble ph (knowing this, however, will not get rid of the need to keep testing your cat's urine). So easily twice or three times as much in terms of a mineral load than the prescription diet.

Also, don't be fooled by the amount they drink. Your cats' diet seems to be dry-heavy, so cats need to drink more than they would ordinarily drink. Check out this link, which shows you how much cats would take in through wet food, dry food, drinking and their urine concentration. http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/110411-dry-wet-cat-food-moisture-content.html

The thinking is that cats with FLUTD should drink MORE than cats even on a wet diet to keep the bladder flushed out to prevent crystals from forming.



ge_ch said:


> thank you,i read through all the other posts.
> last time kitty was blocked I went to all the vets in the area but they all say the same: just keep feeding prescription dry food. When I asked about feeding wet, or feeding high quality other food and add supplement to prevent crystals, they all just looked at me weird. I'm not sure is it a lack of knowledge, lazyness or just pure money making but none of them is helpful. one vet even laughed when I told him I got a water fountain to encourage kitty drinking enough water. it's just so frustrating.
> another problem I had with the hills is that it made kitty put on a lot of weight even though he didnt even got the full recommended amount. it didnt really satisfy his hunger because he kept begging for more all day. I know that other people have the same experience.
> 
> ...


I would email Bern pet food or champion food to find out how much glucosamine the food contains. Tried to find that info but they don't list it in mg. Personally, I wouldn't rely on a diet (wet or dry) to satisfy the increased need for glucosamine in your circumstance. There are products, such as cystaid there that can safely be added to the food.

Ge_gh, I take it you have tried all the vets in your area? Are there any holistic vets nearby? The thing is, yes you can move away from prescription diets and do it differently but you really should have the support of vets to help you with this.

Ideally you would like to find someone who is cued up about urine acidifiers, dosages, home testing and who is willing to support you through this and who isn't going to turn around and tell you "I told you so" IF your cat has another episode.

Have you considered feeding raw food? Provides a naturally acid urine, tends to be satisfying for cats (provided you do it properly and in a balanced manner).


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> Ok, speaking bluntly, not something I would consider. Particularly the move on to Porta 21 Sensible, which is a great food in any other circumstance but not yours I'm afraid as it sounds as though it would be the mainstay of your cats' diet.
> 
> It may be grain-free but here it is why it isn't really suited for a cat with a known FLUTD history
> 
> ...



Ok, I won't be doing the Porta 21 then  _Ge_ch_ you say you're going to go with the Orijen instead of the hills c/d? I think I will do that too then, and keep in the hills wet c/d and the hi life for the 2 that arent a poorly pain in the ar$e! 

What exactly is in the hills c/d that makes it good for FLUTD/struvite crystals anyway?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

PeteJC21 and Ge_ch, a question to you both. Why are you both so keen on continuing to feed dry food for your FLUTD cats in the first place? 

Instead of changing to another dry food that isn't a prescription urinary one, why not change your cats to completely wet food? Cats with known urinary issues need to have moisture. As my link in the previous post demonstrates, even when cats who are fed dry food drink, they don't consume as much moistures as a wet fed cat and the urine concentration differs. 

In addition to feeding a just wet diet, I would then also add more water to the food that my FLUTD cats is eating.

Again, compared to the prescription diets, Orijen contains nearly twice as many minerals. What does the Hills C/D contain? Well, apart from hardly containing any meat (the dry) it works in two ways: It has a low mineral load and makes the urine slightly acidic (but not too acidic so that you - or rather the cat- end up with oxalate stones), both of which help prevent further crystals from forming. Cynics also say that such urinary food contains more sodium (salt) to get cats to drink more but in terms of the DMA sodium, orijen actually contains more.


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> PeteJC21 and Ge_ch, a question to you both. Why are you both so keen on continuing to feed dry food for your FLUTD cats in the first place?
> 
> Instead of changing to another dry food that isn't a prescription urinary one, why not change your cats to completely wet food? Cats with known urinary issues need to have moisture. As my link in the previous post demonstrates, even when cats who are fed dry food drink, they don't consume as much moistures as a wet fed cat and the urine concentration differs.
> 
> ...


I guess theres a few reasons why. I work very odd hours and dry food is the most convenient to ensure they are always fed as I can leave a bowl out all the time for them. Wet food I can leave a bowl out but not sure how long it lasts before it _a)_ gets gobbled up by just one of them (especially Pebbles as she's a greedy guts) and _b)_ before it starts going 'off' (if it does?). I'd be more than happy to take them off dry food, they prefer the wet stuff anyway, its just finding something that _a)_ works for Pebbles' condition, _b)_ is a practical feeding solution for greedy bone idle greedy cats!  and _c)_ ideally one that won't break the bank (I looked at just hills c/d canned, but think I worked out it'll treble the current food bill!).

If i switch them to just wet food then what one would you recommend? I was looking at the Animonda Carny Meat saucer 400g cans... you mention here that it has a balanced ca/ph ratio? It also says Ash content is 1.4%

Would you recommend putting a large bowl of _<insert suitable wet food here> _out in the morning for them all to share and then again in the evening? And add a little water?


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## ibbica (Aug 9, 2010)

PeteJC21 said:


> I guess theres a few reasons why. I work very odd hours and dry food is the most convenient to ensure they are always fed as I can leave a bowl out all the time for them. Wet food I can leave a bowl out but not sure how long it lasts before it _a)_ gets gobbled up by just one of them (especially Pebbles as she's a greedy guts) and _b)_ before it starts going 'off' (if it does?). I'd be more than happy to take them off dry food, they prefer the wet stuff anyway, its just finding something that _a)_ works for Pebbles' condition, _b)_ is a practical feeding solution for greedy bone idle greedy cats!  and _c)_ ideally one that won't break the bank (I looked at just hills c/d canned, but think I worked out it'll treble the current food bill!).


You could add hills c/d dry if you really must leave out dry food during the day; honestly, that would be your safest bet for a kibble option.

If Pebbles is pigging out now, you might actually find it easier to control her weight on wet  They're less likely to overeat wet than dry, in general; the moisture in the wet limits how much they can stuff into their tums, and some cats nibble on kibble because the texture is addictive, not because they're really hungry... Still, keep an eye on everyone's weights, to make sure that no-one is actually going hungry or gaining weight.

The most conservative recommendation I've seen is to pack up wet food after 30 minutes. I think that's a little extreme myself... I wouldn't leave it out for longer than 4h before throwing it away (or 2.5 hours if the house is above 25ºC). I figure if we can eat deviled eggs that have been sitting for a couple hours at room temperature at a cocktail party and not get sick, processed cat food should be fine for at least that long  Of course, anyone with an immunocompromised cat would need to be considerably more cautious.

Are there two times of day when you're consistently home (within, say, an hour in either direction)? Or maybe pick mealtimes that are _usually_ available to you, and on those days when you can't make it then put out c/d kibble for them?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

ibbica said:


> You could add hills c/d dry if you really must leave out dry food during the day; honestly, that would be your safest bet for a kibble option.
> 
> If Pebbles is pigging out now, you might actually find it easier to control her weight on wet  They're less likely to overeat wet than dry, in general; the moisture in the wet limits how much they can stuff into their tums, and some cats nibble on kibble because the texture is addictive, not because they're really hungry... Still, keep an eye on everyone's weights, to make sure that no-one is actually going hungry or gaining weight.
> 
> ...


^ This is excellent advice that I would follow myself in a heartbeat  The only thing I would add to this is to add more water to the food that your FLUTD cat is getting perhaps.



PeteJC21 said:


> If i switch them to just wet food then what one would you recommend? I was looking at the Animonda Carny Meat saucer 400g cans... you mention here that it has a balanced ca/ph ratio? It also says Ash content is 1.4%


Animonda Carny isn't a bad wet food but don't forget that you cannot compare wet and dry food without first taking into account the amount of moisture the former contains.

So, the actual ash content of Animonda Carney is 6.66% as a DMA. I would email them to see whether they will send you the magnesium levels as well as the ph of their food.

There is also Grau, which contains some grain. I would email them and find out whether they know the ph of their food.

Both are dense pates, not sure whether your cats will eat those.

And get the ph strips so that you can keep tabs on your boy's urine ph yourself


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

6.66% as a DMA? 

Yes I will try and find out the magnesium and ph levels (as well as levels of other minerals). 

My wife is always around in the mornings, but not always in the evenings as she often goes to college, nail appts etc straight after work. But nice idea ibbica... perhaps wet food for breakfast as we'll always be there then putting the dry c/d down for the rest of the day/evening?

And I wouldn't worry about Pebbles & the other 2 being fussy about the type of wet food... if its edible then it'll get sucked into the black holes that their mouths are.


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## ibbica (Aug 9, 2010)

PeteJC21 said:


> My wife is always around in the mornings, but not always in the evenings as she often goes to college, nail appts etc straight after work. But nice idea ibbica... perhaps wet food for breakfast as we'll always be there then putting the dry c/d down for the rest of the day/evening?


Sounds like a decent plan to me  We do something similar in the evenings, wet food for dinner and then kibble put down just before our bedtime. I prefer ours to eat more wet than dry anyway, so we let them eat as much wet as they want, and then measure out the kibble they get each day (we usually give 1/3-1/2 of the RDI for whichever brand they're given that day). Your mileage may vary, of course 

In your case, I'd also follow Hobbs' suggestion to add a bit of extra water to the FLUTD kitty's wet too, it will only help her!


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

ibbica said:


> Sounds like a decent plan to me  We do something similar in the evenings, wet food for dinner and then kibble put down just before our bedtime. I prefer ours to eat more wet than dry anyway, so we let them eat as much wet as they want, and then measure out the kibble they get each day (we usually give 1/3-1/2 of the RDI for whichever brand they're given that day). Your mileage may vary, of course
> 
> In your case, I'd also follow Hobbs' suggestion to add a bit of extra water to the FLUTD kitty's wet too, it will only help her!


Yes will certainly add some extra water. How much are we looking at adding? 4-5 table spoons per 400g can? I'll also add a little cod liver oil too as one of them has a bit of dry skin.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2011)

I add about 2-3 desert spoons of water to a 100g pouch of wet food, I just slosh a bit on and mix it in.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

PeteJC21 said:


> Yes will certainly add some extra water. How much are we looking at adding? 4-5 table spoons per 400g can? I'll also add a little cod liver oil too as one of them has a bit of dry skin.


Please don't add cod liver oil - this contains Vitamin A, which is fat soluble, which means that any excess gets stored in the body.

Tell you what is great for dry skin - get salmon oil (from the body, not the liver) or get some evening primrose oil. Both of these are full of essential fatty acids that will do wonders for your cats' skin and coat.


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> Ge_gh, I take it you have tried all the vets in your area? Are there any holistic vets nearby? The thing is, yes you can move away from prescription diets and do it differently but you really should have the support of vets to help you with this.
> 
> Ideally you would like to find someone who is cued up about urine acidifiers, dosages, home testing and who is willing to support you through this and who isn't going to turn around and tell you "I told you so" IF your cat has another episode.
> 
> Have you considered feeding raw food? Provides a naturally acid urine, tends to be satisfying for cats (provided you do it properly and in a balanced manner).


yes i was talking to every vet in the area i could find, even 2 that were an hour drive away.
they all said they wouldnt recommend experimenting with other foods or acidifiers because it would be hard to get the dosage right. they looked at me weird when i asked about home testing, couldnt even tell me where i could get testing strips. they said i was exagerating and should just keep feeding the cd.
(it really annoys me that every wet keeps telling me that all hills products are the best things you can give your cats and dogs.i had so many arguments with them about fillers and cheap byproducts!)
the last time kittys problem flared up i noticed he was using the littertray too often and the amounts were getting smaller.also too much grooming going on. brought him to vet,but all he did was check the bladdersize(press around tummy) and told me he wasnt blocked, gave him antibiotics and charged me around 40euros. i knew already he wasnt blocked but something wasnt right! he wouldnt do any tests to find out if it was an infection or the start of crystals blocking him. a week later i had to rush him back to emergency at the weekend because he was completely blocked. they had to keep him for nearly a week and i got a lovely bill. looking back i know for sure now that my instincts were better than their service and it must have been the beginning of the crystals blocking him.
unfortunately the other vet in town is even worse. thats the reason im trying to get answers here. i dont know what your background is hobbs but you seem to know more than any vet i ever met.

re rawfeeding: i work all different shifts and sometimes have to rely on my sister and neighbor to feed them so it would be too complicated

pete: ever since i replaced the cd dry with the orijen my cats stopped begging for food and lost weight. correct me if im wrong but it seems that the high meatcontent, low carb and no fillers of the food satisfies them more than the cd dry. 
and believe me they were begging all day, scratching on doors and furniture but still putting on more and more weight . when i asked the vet about it i was told its just because they like the food and there is nothing to worry about:frown: while doing some research on the internet i read that other people had the same experience


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> ^
> 
> And get the ph strips so that you can keep tabs on your boy's urine ph yourself


where do you get those? pharmacy?
sorry i might sound stupid but how do you get the urin sample? one vet told me they have special beads as litter that doesnt absorb moisture, they collect the urine and wash the beads and littertray after. im sure there is another way


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

hobbs2004 said:


> ^
> 
> And get the ph strips so that you can keep tabs on your boy's urine ph yourself


where do you get those? pharmacy?
sorry i might sound stupid but how do you get the urin sample? one vet told me they have special beads as litter that doesnt absorb moisture, they collect the urine and wash the beads and littertray after. im sure there is another way


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

You can get those strips from any chemist, amazon etc. And yes, you can use that special litter to make it easier to collect the wee if you aren't there to shove a strip in the flow when your urinary cat is weeing  I guess it will be a logistical challenge to make sure that you collect only the wee from the FLUTD cat when using the special litter. It is never easy

But back to basics as this has veered here and there. Just pretend I am dumb D) and talk me through your thinking as I will talk you through my thinking and questions below

- it has been a while since he had an incident, right?
- when he had the blockage, was that due to just the crystals or was it something called a urethral plug 
- he has been on the hills c/d for a while. Have his urine and his crystals been at all monitored during this time?

- you would like to feed him something else because he has put on weight and has been hungry. 
- you changed him to orijen with a little wet (Applaws) once a week or so.

- have his urine and crystals been checked at all since you put him on the new diet?

Now, here is the issue I have. Blockages in male cats are not only very unpleasant for the cat but also life-threatening. It is said that those who have had any form of FLUTD are more likely to have another bout in the future. Mustn't be but it is more likely.

The hills c/d, while not a great food in terms of the ingredients, can help prevent crystals but helping them dissolves (more acidic urine ph) as well as prevent them forming due to its low mineral load. This food doesn't work for every cat but sounds as though it has worked for yours. In which case you could view this food not simply as "food" but as "prophylactic medicine" to HELP prevent future episodes.

If it were me and I had a cat with a known history of blockages and I wanted to feed dry food, this is the food I would be feeding. I certainly wouldn't change the food to something that has a significantly higher mineral load even if the ingredients looked better and even if my cat had not had another bout in a while. Apparently unpredictable things those FLUTD things.

However, the crux of the matter is that I probably wouldn't feed another dry food (apart from the urinary special food). I would be feeding wet food instead. And as we have said throughout this thread, I would lace the wet with more water just as an additional aid to keep it all flushed out.

Hills do a wet version of c/d but as you know it is expensive. I have to hold my hand up and say that it isn't something that I have explored in any great detail so I don't know whether those foods that have a high meat content (such as Animonda, Grau, etc etc) also have a higher mineral content compared with foods that have a lower meat content (say because they are in jelly or broth etc). Or there might not be a difference at all!

If you are interested in doing that then don't forget that you need to take the moisture content of wet food out of the equation to be able to compare different foods (different wet brands to each other as well as dry to wet foods).

However, here is what I think I would do in your situation

1) I would go to the vet i trust the most (I know you are not spoiled for choice) and get them to do a urine analysis to see where I am at.

2) I would ditch the orijen for my FLUTD cat and put him back on the c/d while I am still feeding dry

3) I would aim to move my cats over to a wet heavy diet (perhaps starting off with the hills c/d wet diet or perhaps the RC or Eukaneba varieties) and do some probing into mineral levels, food ph levels, etc etc of "normal" commercial wet foods. I would also lace the food of my FLUTD cat with more water.

4) I would buy a water fountain if I didn't have one already

5) I would get those ph strips and periodically test the urine

6) If i thought it was stress related, then I would also consider Feliway as a first step to help reduce it.

7) I would keep the vet in the loop, do periodic tests and would hope to garner support from them (I know, again you aren't spoiled in that respect).

Not sure whether you have seen this but these guys always give great advice: Feline lower urinary tract disease (FLUTD)

Come to think of it, there must be a yahoo group/forum out there specifically about FLUTD cats. 

Phew, sorry for the long post and I hope it makes sense


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

You can get those strips from any chemist, amazon etc. And yes, you can use that special litter to make it easier to collect the wee if you aren't there to shove a strip in the flow when your urinary cat is weeing  I guess it will be a logistical challenge to make sure that you collect only the wee from the FLUTD cat when using the special litter. It is never easy

THANK YOU HOBBS, REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR ADVISE.
I WOULD NEED TO GET THOSE BEADS BECAUSE SINCE THE LAST TIME HE WAS BLOCKED HE PEES WHILE STANDING AND I HAD TO GET A COVERED LITTER BOX. I WOULDNT BE ABLE TO HOLD THE STRIPS IN THE FLOW  

But back to basics as this has veered here and there. Just pretend I am dumb D) and talk me through your thinking as I will talk you through my thinking and questions below

- it has been a while since he had an incident, right? FIRST TIME WAS IN 2006, SECOND IN 2007 AND LAST TIME A FEW MONTHS AGO(WE FIGURED IT WAS EVERY TIME WE GOT A SECOND CAT, MOVED HOUSE AND GOT A DOG. HE IS A VERY ATTACHED CAT WITH A GREAT PERSONALITY SO I THINK THESE THINGS JUST UPSET HIM)

- when he had the blockage, was that due to just the crystals or was it something called a urethral plug
SECOND AND LAST TIME I WAS TOLD HE WAS BLOCKED. HE GOT HIS BLADDER FLUSHED AND WAS PUT ON THE DRIP. THE SECOND TIME IT HAPPENED WE THOUGHT WE WOULD LOOSE HIM. THE VET SENT HIM HOME SAYING HE WAS FINE(AFTER DOING XRAYS AND ULTRASOUND) BUT THE SAME NIGHT HE GOT COMPLETELY BLOCKED AND WE DIDNT THINK HE WOULD MAKE THE NIGHT. I WAS SO MAD ABOUT THEIR ERROR, THEY NEARLY KILLED HIM.OF COURSE I GOT A NICE BILL AT THE END 

- he has been on the hills c/d for a while. Have his urine and his crystals been at all monitored during this time?

NO, WHEN I ASKED I WAS TOLD ITS UNNESESSARY. 

- you would like to feed him something else because he has put on weight and has been hungry. 
YES AND BECAUSE IT HAS CRAP INGREDIENTS, WOULD PREFER TO GIVE HIM GOOD FOOD AND MAYBE ACIDIFYING SUPPLEMENT BUT I WOULDNT HAVE THE SUPPORT OF A PROFESSIONAL FOR THIS

- you changed him to orijen with a little wet (Applaws) once a week or so.
HALF A DAILY PORTION ORIJEN SPREAD OUT IN TWO MEALS AND WITH ADDED WATER AND CD WET WITH ADDED WATER IN THE EVENINGS(ONCE A WEEK REPLACED BY APPLAWS. WAS HOPING TO REPLACE THE CD ALLTOGETHER BUT THAT IS OUT OF QUESTION NOW)
RAGING, I REALLY THOUGHT I DID A GOOD THING WITH GETTING HIM THE ORIJEN. IT HAS SUCH A GOOD REPUTATION.

- have his urine and crystals been checked at all since you put him on the new diet?
NO. IM PARANOID ABOUT OBSERVING HIM THOUGH(I KNOW ALL THE SIGNS BY NOW). I KNOW IT WOULD BE BETTER TO GET IT CHECKED

Now, here is the issue I have. Blockages in male cats are not only very unpleasant for the cat but also life-threatening. It is said that those who have had any form of FLUTD are more likely to have another bout in the future. Mustn't be but it is more likely. 
YES, KITTY IS A GOOD EXAMPLE UNFORTUNATELLY

The hills c/d, while not a great food in terms of the ingredients, can help prevent crystals but helping them dissolves (more acidic urine ph) as well as prevent them forming due to its low mineral load. This food doesn't work for every cat but sounds as though it has worked for yours. In which case you could view this food not simply as "food" but as "prophylactic medicine" to HELP prevent future episodes.

If it were me and I had a cat with a known history of blockages and I wanted to feed dry food, this is the food I would be feeding. I certainly wouldn't change the food to something that has a significantly higher mineral load even if the ingredients looked better and even if my cat had not had another bout in a while. Apparently unpredictable things those FLUTD things.

However, the crux of the matter is that I probably wouldn't feed another dry food (apart from the urinary special food). I would be feeding wet food instead. And as we have said throughout this thread, I would lace the wet with more water just as an additional aid to keep it all flushed out. 
THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT IDEA AND YES I ADD WATER ALREADY.
THE VET DISMISSED MY SUGGESTION TO FEED WET, THEY DONT EVEN STOCK IT BUT WOULD ORDER IT IN FOR ME. ISNT IT AMAZING HOW THEY ARE PUSHING ALL THE DRY FOOD!
I GET MY CD WET FROM HERE:
Urinary Products For Cats : MedicAnimal.com
ITS A LOT CHEAPER, THEY ALWAYS DO SOME OFFERS ON FOOD AND DELIVERY IS REALLY FAST.CAN HIGHLY RECOMMEND

Hills do a wet version of c/d but as you know it is expensive. I have to hold my hand up and say that it isn't something that I have explored in any great detail so I don't know whether those foods that have a high meat content (such as Animonda, Grau, etc etc) also have a higher mineral content compared with foods that have a lower meat content (say because they are in jelly or broth etc). Or there might not be a difference at all!

If you are interested in doing that then don't forget that you need to take the moisture content of wet food out of the equation to be able to compare different foods (different wet brands to each other as well as dry to wet foods). 
I HAVE A BOX OF CD WET HERE BESIDE ME:
INGREDIENTS:
MEAT AND ANIMAL DERIVATIVES (MIN.CHICKEN 16%),CEREALS, VEGETABLE PROTEIN EXTRACTS, MINERALS, DERIVATIVES OF VEGETABLE ORIGIN, OILS AND FATS, VARIOUS SUGARS. URINE ACIDIFYING SUBSTANCEL-METHONINE 0.8G/KG
AVERAGE ANALYSIS: PROTEIN 8.2%, FAT 4.6%, FIBRE 0.4% ASH 1.8%, MOISTURE 79.3%, CALCIUM 0.13%, PHOSPHORUS 0.12%, SODIUM 0.06%, POTASSIUM 0.19%, CHLORIDES 0.24%, SULPHUR 0.14%, MAGNESIUM 0.011%

However, here is what I think I would do in your situation

1) I would go to the vet i trust the most (I know you are not spoiled for choice) and get them to do a urine analysis to see where I am at.
ILL GIVE IT ANOTHER TRY!

2) I would ditch the orijen for my FLUTD cat and put him back on the c/d while I am still feeding dry
OK

3) I would aim to move my cats over to a wet heavy diet (perhaps starting off with the hills c/d wet diet or perhaps the RC or Eukaneba varieties) and do some probing into mineral levels, food ph levels, etc etc of "normal" commercial wet foods. I would also lace the food of my FLUTD cat with more water.

4) I would buy a water fountain if I didn't have one already
GOT ONE LAST YEAR. THE VET JUST LAUGHED WHEN I TOLD HIM

5) I would get those ph strips and periodically test the urine
WILL DO

6) If i thought it was stress related, then I would also consider Feliway as a first step to help reduce it.
HAVE THOSE FOR THE LAST 3MONTHS, DIDNT NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE BUT MAYBE THATS A GOOD SIGN?

7) I would keep the vet in the loop, do periodic tests and would hope to garner support from them (I know, again you aren't spoiled in that respect).

Not sure whether you have seen this but these guys always give great advice: Feline lower urinary tract disease (FLUTD)

Come to think of it, there must be a yahoo group/forum out there specifically about FLUTD cats. 
THATS A USEFULL ONE I FOUND, INTERESTING REPORTS ON THERE ABOUT WELLNESS FOOD:
Good Food For Cat With Struvite Crystals?

Phew, sorry for the long post and I hope it makes sense 
SORRY ABOUT MY LONG POST TOO
YOU ARE VERY HELPFULL AND I WILL LOOK INTO ALL THESE THINGS YOU RECOMMENDED. THANKS AGAIN


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

ge_ch said:


> where do you get those? pharmacy?
> sorry i might sound stupid but how do you get the urin sample? one vet told me they have special beads as litter that doesnt absorb moisture, they collect the urine and wash the beads and littertray after. im sure there is another way


I got some off ebay, only a couple of quid for a pack. We get the c/d (wet and dry) from Pet-supermarket.co.uk, although Medicanimal are slightly cheaper I use a discount code with Pet supermarket that always gives me 5% off (PUPPY10) plus they do free delivery.

We're going to keep pebbles on the c/d for now too, a bit of info on the dry stuff here (nutrition and indgredients)... Products - Prescription Diet not sure if all thats written on the packets?

Can't find any info regarding the 156g tins of wet food, but we have some at home and I just looked at one (add this to your wet food sticky if you want Hobbs?):

Hills c/d 156g cans wet food (mince variety)
*Ingredients:*
_Meat & animal derivatives (min. chicken 5%), cereals, derivatives of vegetable origin, oils and fats, fish and derivatives of fish, vegetable protein extracts, minerals, yeasts, various sugars, L-cysteine hydrochloride, eggs and egg derivatives, Urine acidifying substance: DL-methionine 1.25 g/kg_
_
(does that mean the its only 5% meat? or that 5% of the meat is chicken?)_
*
Analysis:*
protein 10.9%, fat 5.2%, fibre 0.5%, ash 1.7%, moisture 75.1%, calcium 0.18%, phosphorus 0.17%, sodium 0.08%, potassium 0.20%, chlorides 0.21%, sulphur 0.25%, magnesium 0.013%

*Per kg:* vitamin D3 400iu, Vitamin E 150mg

*Feeding instructions:* 
Recommended length of time for use: _up to 6 months._ Keep fresh water available at all times. For 5kg cat 1.5 - 2 cans per day (234g - 312g)

*Cost:*
£1.28/100gs (12 x 156g pack £23.90 exc delivery on zooplus.co.uk

Looks to me like its full of [email protected] like the dry stuff. I dont get why someone cant make a decent wet or dry food with healthy ingredients, low magnesium and with the DL-methionine for urine acidifying. That said, pebbles does go a bit mental for the wet c/d, as soon as I pull the can ring pull and open it up in the kitchen theres a thumping noise all the way down the stairs, a mad dash to the kitchen and some acrobatics on 2 hind legs! :scared:

I'm going to try and speak with someone at Hills, ask them if they've ever considered a healthier option for FLUTD cats.


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## ge_ch (Feb 10, 2011)

I just received a new delivery of the hills cd vet pouches and noticed the different packaging so I started comparing to the one I had already. It seems that they made a few changes to their recipe:

Here is the old list of Ingredients:
MEAT AND ANIMAL DERIVATIVES (MIN.CHICKEN 16%),CEREALS, VEGETABLE PROTEIN EXTRACTS, MINERALS, DERIVATIVES OF VEGETABLE ORIGIN, OILS AND FATS, VARIOUS SUGARS. URINE ACIDIFYING SUBSTANCEL-METHONINE 0.8G/KG
AVERAGE ANALYSIS: PROTEIN 8.2%, FAT 4.6%, FIBRE 0.4% ASH 1.8%, MOISTURE 79.3%, CALCIUM 0.13%, PHOSPHORUS 0.12%, SODIUM 0.06%, POTASSIUM 0.19%, CHLORIDES 0.24%, SULPHUR 0.14%, MAGNESIUM 0.011%
per kg: vitamin D3 270 IU, vitamin E 115mg, coloured with EC additives.

And here is the new cd multicare feline with chicken(23%)
Ingredients:
Meat and animal derivatives, cereals, derivatives of vegetable origin, vegetable protein extracts, fish and fish derivatives, various sugars, eggs and egg derivatives, minerals, oils and fats, yeast. urine acidifying substance DL-methionine 1.7kg/kg
Analytical constituents: crude protein 9.1%, crude oils&fats 4.2%, crude ash 1.3%, moisture 78.4%, calcium 0.14%, phosphorus 0.14%, sodium 0.08%, potassium 0.17%, chlorides 0.19%, sulphur 0.19%, magnesium 0.012%
per kg:vitamin E 160mg, Beta-carotene 0.5mg, taurine 745mg
Additives per kg: E671(vitamin D3)225 IU, E1(iron) 14.6mg, E2(iodine) 0.2mg, E4(copper) 2.4mg, E5(manganese) 3.2mg, E6(zinc) 37.5mg. coloured with caramel.

This is from the hills website:
with Chicken (minimum 16%): Chicken, lamb liver, beef, wheat flour, lamb, rice starch, soy protein, digest, wheat fibre, protein powder, potassium chloride, calcium chloride, glucose, vegetable oil, potassium citrate, taurine, DL-methionine, fish oil, calcium carbonate, vitamins, trace elements and EC permitted colouring agents

So here we are: 3 different cd wet pouches!

Also noticed that my old pack was made in Australia, the new one made in the EU.
I find strange how they added fish to the new recipe(my guess is that its for flavour), I read on lots of websites not to feed fish flavoured food to FLUTD cats.

At least they increased the meat content:thumbup:

pete:i never got a vet or petfood rep to admit that these foods are full of crap. every time i questioned them i was told too much meat/protein is not good and cereals are needed
would you consider feeding pouches instead of the cans? looking at the ingredients it seems to be a better choice. 
kitty likes all the cd, esp. LOVES the dry ocean fish, cant get enough of it. he hates the sd tin though, refused to eat any for 3days. 
i find in general that cats and dogs prefer eating crap to good quality food. they probably taste better. suppose its the same with us, healthy food just never tastes as good as a burger or chocolate


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

Yes, I'm going to switch to pouches when i order next as it does look better with the extra meat content.

Pebbles went in for her blood samples to be taken (shes lost weight recently and had upset stomach), while there i did ask the vet about hills c/d and alternatives, he just recommended we stick with it too, either that or the royal canin.

Anyway got her results back, not only is she a FLUTD cat but shes now been diagnosed with hyperthyroidism (quite common in older cats). In addition to her special FLUTD diet she is now on tablets for the rest of her life!

But yes, we're switching to the wet pouches which she'll have 1 for breakfast along with her tablet, then c/d dry for the rest of the day. She loves the c/d tines though, hopefully she'll love the pouches too.


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