# breeding wrong blood groups



## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

is there a risk if you put Ab queen to b stud i thought there was a small risk.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes!!!!

There is a risk if a kitten's blood group is different to mum's blood group. 

Ab mum to b stud will have kittens that are either Ab or b. The b kittens will be at risk from fading kitten syndrome if they suckle from mum for the first two days.

Best way to think about it is that AA queens can go to any stud. bb queens can only go to bb studs. Ab queens can only go to AA studs.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

That is what i thought im glad i was right it means iv learnt something lol.Why is it then that a breeder i have come across is doing such a thing and breeding the Ab queen and b stud, this seems wrong to me and not fair on mother nor kittens


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Some people take the risk and then hand feed kittens for the first day or two as it is the colostrum that has the antibodies that attack the blood cells. Others think that b kittens to an A mum are okay or at virtually no risk but they are at a risk.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I think it was messy who did a fab post a while back about blood groups, maybe a idea to re-post it?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

There are 3 blood groups but 4 possible combinations when it comes to mating decisions for breeds affected by blood groups. There are:


AB
AA
Ab
bb

AB is a blood group on its own & not a whole lot is know about this group when it comes to matings as it is uncommon.

AA is a "pure" A group and bb is a "pure" B group whilst "Ab" is an A group carrying the b group - confusing because written down it looks like AB.

ANY MATING that has a risk of kittens being of a different blood group to mum is potentially lethal.

Please refer to this guidance:

Dr. Addie - Feline Blood Groups

Mum Ab should be mated to an AA only
Mum AA can be mated to any
Mum bb should be mated to bb only


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_wow thats alot to take in, or maybe its because im not a breeder, is it only BSH that this applies to, or is it with any other breeds._


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

colliemerles said:


> _wow thats alot to take in, or maybe its because im not a breeder, is it only BSH that this applies to, or is it with any other breeds._


There are a few breeds. Birmans, BSH, Rexes and others that I am probably not aware of.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

well this particular breeder had 4 kittens and 1 died so im betting that thats the reason it died.I dont think its a risk worth taking. She obviously does


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> There are a few breeds. Birmans, BSH, Rexes and others that I am probably not aware of.


Persians too...


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Makes sense as that will be where Birmans got it.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> well this particular breeder had 4 kittens and 1 died so im betting that thats the reason it died.I dont think its a risk worth taking. She obviously does


It's possible. Usually kittens affected by kitten fading syndrome, 'at best' lose part of their tail and 'at worst' die in the first few days.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> It's possible. Usually kittens affected by kitten fading syndrome, 'at best' lose part of their tail and 'at worst' die in the first few days.


Iv been having a conversation with a different woman who is trying to sell some Ab blood kittens,i have told her that i can not buy one from her as they are the wrong blood group for me as my male will be a b blood.She was saying to me i will av no problems with these 2 blood groups i was saying i will av problems and there is a risk.She wouldnt have none of it tho.ill leave her to think that:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> Makes sense as that will be where Birmans got it.


where birmans got what?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> Iv been having a conversation with a different woman who is trying to sell some Ab blood kittens,i have told her that i can not buy one from her as they are the wrong blood group for me as my male will be a b blood.She was saying to me i will av no problems with these 2 blood groups i was saying i will av problems and there is a risk.She wouldnt have none of it tho.ill leave her to think that:


Some breeders are set in their ways, sadly.... Why bother testing their blood groups if they are going to ignore the risks? :



we love bsh's said:


> where birmans got what?


B type blood groups. Most breeds have A type only.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

ah i see what you mean and yeah what is the point in testing if she is going to ignore the risks.Even talked to a 3rd breeder why told me she doesnt bother to blood group test her cats she said 'there are more important things to worry about' i cant believe it myself.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I've been studying this in more detail since last year's litter and here is the situation:

Group A has a dominant inheritance over Group B. 

Group B cats have very effective antibodies against the red corpuscles of Group A, so when a B queen is mated to an A stud, the litter will be group A - they will be born healthy but when they take and ingest the first milk (colostrum) and therefore the antibodies of their mother, this will destroy their red corpuscles, which leads to death.

Group B males can be bred to Group A and B females, without exception.

Group A males can only be mated to Group A females.

Group B females can only be mated to Group B males.

Group A females can be mated, without exception to Group A and B males.

The problem happens when Group B queen is mated to a Group A stud, you don't want Group A kittens to be born to a Group B mother!

My girls are Group Ab and i am using both A and B studs without issues.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I completely disagree, Alison. There is a risk for B group kittens to a A group mum.

Dr. Addie - Feline Blood Groups



> Queens with blood group A have less anti-type B antibody than blood group B queens have anti-group A antibody, so the type B kittens of this mating might survive. However, if the mating is repeated, the queen will build up anti-B antibody and eventually one fourth of her kittens could die of neonatal isoerythrolysis.


I think a lot of breeders are chancing Ab to B group studs. Kittens should not have a different blood group to mum.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I haven't heard of anyone losing any kittens after this mating, have you?

I know of several breeders who abide by the rules i posted above and have never had problems.

There is always going to be variations of rules but i stand by what i've said.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

As outlined in the above [and extensive] article on the topic of blood groups in cat breeding - the more a A type dam has B type kittens the more the antibodies build up....

Hell of a risk to play anyway - we're talking about lives if not abnormalities of kittens.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I have seen the tables by dr addie,it states that 50% of the litter born to Ab queen and b stud wil be at risk but it is only a small risk due to the fact A blood groups have less anti b anti bodies. As where a blood group b queen has more anti A antibodies. So it is *fact* that there is risk and the reason people are not loosing many is to do with firstly the above and secondly *luck*


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm a part of the breeding council in the Nordic Rex Club Association and we've just recently gone through the litterature AND contacted the world leading expert on feline blood groups, Dr. Giger, in order to disentangle the confusion Dr. Addie is causing with her desinformation about feline blood groups.

We contacted Dr. Giger, Dr. Niini at Genoscope (Dr. Niini do research on feline blood groups and the lab performs both feline DNA typing and blood serum typing) and Dr. Addie. Dr. Giger and Dr. Niini confirmed what we had found in the litterature: problems only occur when you breed a B-female with an A- or AB-male. We asked Dr. Addie for sources on her claims that problems occur no matter what "mismatches" you do but she never answered.

Our conclusion, based on veterinary litterature, the statements from Dr. Giger and Dr. Niini in combination with loads of practical experience is that problems only occur when breeding B-females with non-B-males.

I've personally had several litters with A/b-mother and a b-father and I've never had any problems. It's overall extremely common with such combinations here in Sweden and no... we don't have any problems with neonatal isoerytholysis in those litters.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

thats very interesting thankyou for your input


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

So to summarise, Dr Addie believes there is an issue but because you can't contact this person to verify what sort of issue [ie what evidence] we are assuming it isn't a problem as a handful of other vets have not found evidence?

I am going to stick to my original understanding as that sounds in no way definitive. Though as I only have an A type not carrying B then this is irrelevant to me for the time being.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Dr Giger is an internationally reknowned expert on the subject, certainly not usually referred to as one of a 'handful of vets'.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Its alot to take in, but I go by messys table that she put in the first or second page here, I wouldnt want to risk or chance anything when it comes to babies


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

havoc said:


> Dr Giger is an internationally reknowned expert on the subject, certainly not usually referred to as one of a 'handful of vets'.


I didn't mean it to sound contemptuous.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This, from the FAB website sums up the situation simply in one sentence:-



> Blood group B cats all have naturally occurring anti-A antibodies in their blood that are present in high levels from a few months of age and which can cause destruction of type A red blood cells.


It isn't at odds with Cerridwen's comment that


> problems only occur when breeding B-females with non-B-males


The FAB cite Dr Giger, Diane Addie and Danielle Gunn-Moore as their advisors on this topic.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> So to summarise, Dr Addie believes there is an issue but because you can't contact this person to verify what sort of issue [ie what evidence] we are assuming it isn't a problem as a handful of other vets have not found evidence?
> 
> I am going to stick to my original understanding as that sounds in no way definitive. Though as I only have an A type not carrying B then this is irrelevant to me for the time being.


Not "can't contact", we did. She just never answered. The address was correct and the e-mail was sent twice so it seems unlikely that the e-mail never reached her. Dr. Addie is not specialized on anything that has something to do with feline blood types. Dr. Giger and Dr. Niini are. They are not just any handful of vets, Dr. Giger is *the* expert on feline blood types (hematology and transfusion medicine) and Dr. Niini works with this every day, also doing research. Dr. Niini holds the patent for the DNA blood typing test together with other veterinarians such as Leslie Lyons and Niels Pedersen.

Their words weigh a lot heavier than Dr. Addies who cannot even present scientific studies that supports her hypothese (the sources she presents on her website do not support her hypothese).

I've tripled checked this since I've had several A/b females and of course I made sure it was fine to breed them with b studs before I did.

You should of course not do anything you're not comfortable with but it's very sad that Dr. Addie spreads misleading information about this. I've spent hours talking to concerned cat breeders who've been very distressed when they've found Dr. Addies website and found information that completely contradicts everything they've learned about feline blood type incompatability.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I've spent hours talking to concerned cat breeders who've been very distressed when they've found Dr. Addies website and found information that completely contradicts everything they've learned about feline blood type incompatability


It isn't the only thing she's failed to back up with hard evidence when questioned directly. A great shame as her work in the diagnosing of FIP has helped save many cats from being pts unnecessarily and should be enough of a legacy.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Okay if this is all true and these vets are the source for FAB then why, for blood group advice, does the FAB site say:



> About one third of blood group A cats have some naturally occurring anti-B antibodies in their blood which will cause destruction of type B red blood cells. In most cases the anti-B antibodies are present in low numbers, enough to cause serious transfusion reactions, but not enough to cause neonatal isoerythrolysis


Feline Blood Groups

It seems that there is still a risk for B type kittens to an A type mum.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I must admit this sounds highly convincing to me,with the way things are unfolding it looks like a few things are gonna have to be re wrote in the near future.Im looking forward to hearing more on the subject.


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I still stand by what i said


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> Okay if this is all true and these vets are the source for FAB then why, for blood group advice, does the FAB site say:
> 
> Feline Blood Groups
> 
> It seems that there is still a risk for B type kittens to an A type mum.


OK, quoting your quote.



> About one third of blood group A cats have some naturally occurring anti-B antibodies in their blood which will cause destruction of type B red blood cells. In most cases the anti-B antibodies are present in low numbers, enough to cause serious transfusion reactions, but *not enough to cause neonatal isoerythrolysis*


Just like I've claimed. No problems having b-kittens from an A- or AB-mother.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

But it is claiming that there ARE problems, isn't it? It might not be neonatal isoerythrolysis but it says there can be problems with this particular mating.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

so what blood groups are 'safe' and 'not 'safe' to mate together in british?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

I would think....... to be absolutely sure and safe.... only mate ur A queen with an A stud and same for a B queen and stud! if everyone were to do this then there wouldnt be any A carrying B kittens


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> But it is claiming that there ARE problems, isn't it? It might not be neonatal isoerythrolysis but it says there can be problems with this particular mating.


It says that the low antibodies can cause red blood cell destruction if you do a blood transfusion, but that's something completely different than drinking colostrum. It's a huge difference between having wrong antibodies injected directly into your blood stream and drinking colostrum with a small amount of antbodies.

Transfusion problems do not mean problems with b-kittens from an A-mother.

Two very different things.

*Taylorbaby:* No matter what breed we're talking about all combinations except from b-queen to A- or AB-male are safe.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Shayden said:


> I would think....... to be absolutely sure and safe.... only mate ur A queen with an A stud and same for a B queen and stud! if everyone were to do this then there wouldnt be any A carrying B kittens


You would however throw away perfectly safe combinations by following this rule. In some populations it may even be detrimental for the genetic diversity and therefor in the long run for the health. You would probably also in the long rund end up dividing breeds into two different types if you'd consistently never mix blood groups.

There are no scientifically based reasons to be that restrictive.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> so what blood groups are 'safe' and 'not 'safe' to mate together in british?


Well this thread has proved you're going to get differing and conflicting answers.

A general comment, not confined to this subject. There is so much now on the internet. Much of it is cut and paste reproduction of the same information and some of it has been reworked or reworded by amateur authors. Mistakes or misconceptions can be reproduced and added to very official or academic looking websites, it's how a fair few urban myths about cat care have blossomed in recent years. None of it is deliberately malicious but simple rewording can change a meaning completely and then a misleading comment is taken up as hard fact. Be it the colours you can expect from a given mating or something as important as blood groups, at least you'll be able to spot when something doesn't look right if you put a little time into learning the basics.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Cerridwen said:


> You would however throw away perfectly safe combinations by following this rule. In some populations it may even be detrimental for the genetic diversity and therefor in the long run for the health. You would probably also in the long rund end up dividing breeds into two different types if you'd consistently never mix blood groups.
> 
> There are no scientifically based reasons to be that restrictive.


It would still be possible to be genetically diverse and be cautious at the same time if you mate Ab back to A only as AA can go to any stud after all.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> It would still be possible to be genetically diverse and be cautious at the same time if you mate Ab back to A only as AA can go to any stud after all.


You would however reduce your possibilites quite a lot (at least in the breeds with a high frequency b-cats), for no good reason at all. I breed Devon Rex which is what you might call a medium large breed (in numbers). In Sweden appr. 400 kittens are born each year. We have about 120 active queens and maybe 40 active studs at any given time. This is just about what you need in order to keep a breed enough genetically diverse for it to be healthy... but, if you would impose breeding restrictions because of blood types you would loose many possible combinations and you will end up with an unnecessary loss of genes. Had I followed that rule I would have lost the possibility to use three wonderful studs. I would probably have had to buy or borrow a stud with less unique pedigrees.

The theoretical number of combinations and the practical possibilites are different things. The theoretical is the optimal number of combinations but we breeders have certain criterions when we choose breeding pairs. You have the health issue (i. e. demands on tests), you have the inbreeding coefficient, on specific look or type, maybe you have demands on colour and patterns etc. Adding another factor that restricts the possibilities when it's really not necessary is not making yourself or the breed a favour.

But like I wrote earlier, no one should do anything they don't feel comfortable with but I do think it's sad that misleading information is spread and that we force ourselves to make breeding more difficult than we have to (it's difficult enough as it is). In the end it might end up kicking ourselves in our bottoms.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Sadly, it puts doubt in your mind and I'm of the opinion of being cautious over this especially as a new breeder. Do wish there was more funding/research in cat breeding that was more publicly available and reassuring. Most things seem to be chinese whispers and then who do you believe...


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

fair point! but with that being the case then if you were to mix knowing it may cause an issue then it is important to either blood type the kittens (with something similar to a snap test done at birth with the umbilical cord blood) or keep them from suckling for the first 18/24 hrs 

I would rather this than risk loosing a kitten!... would you chance it if it were your child?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Cerridwen said:


> You would however reduce your possibilites quite a lot (at least in the breeds with a high frequency b-cats), for no good reason at all. I breed Devon Rex which is what you might call a medium large breed (in numbers). In Sweden appr. 400 kittens are born each year. We have about 120 active queens and maybe 40 active studs at any given time. This is just about what you need in order to keep a breed enough genetically diverse for it to be healthy... but, if you would impose breeding restrictions because of blood types you would loose many possible combinations and you will end up with an unnecessary loss of genes. Had I followed that rule I would have lost the possibility to use three wonderful studs. I would probably have had to buy or borrow a stud with less unique pedigrees.
> 
> The theoretical number of combinations and the practical possibilites are different things. The theoretical is the optimal number of combinations but we breeders have certain criterions when we choose breeding pairs. You have the health issue (i. e. demands on tests), you have the inbreeding coefficient, on specific look or type, maybe you have demands on colour and patterns etc. Adding another factor that restricts the possibilities when it's really not necessary is not making yourself or the breed a favour.
> 
> But like I wrote earlier, no one should do anything they don't feel comfortable with but I do think it's sad that misleading information is spread and that we force ourselves to make breeding more difficult than we have to (it's difficult enough as it is). In the end it might end up kicking ourselves in our bottoms.


im really quite glad you came along with your very usefull info,every point your making is spot on


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> Sadly, it puts doubt in your mind and I'm of the opinion of being cautious over this especially as a new breeder. Do wish there was more funding/research in cat breeding that was more publicly available and reassuring. Most things seem to be chinese whispers and then who do you believe...


There's actuarally a fair share of scientific research being done on feline blood types. It's a very well explored field in feline medicine. The only one that puts doubt in breeders minds is Dr. Addie and she doesn't have the scienfitic research to back up her claims.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Shayden said:


> fair point! but with that being the case then if you were to mix knowing it may cause an issue then it is important to either blood type the kittens (with something similar to a snap test done at birth with the umbilical cord blood) or keep them from suckling for the first 18/24 hrs
> 
> I would rather this than risk loosing a kitten!... would you chance it if it were your child?


I'm not taking chances. I read the scientific research and listen to the experts. No matter if we're talking kittens or children.

I've been mixing blood groups from the start (for 10 years now) without any problems. I've been breeding A/b-females with both b- and A/b-males. No handfeeding, no problems. Just like the science says. I would not have done it if I hadn't been certain of it being safe.

You see risks. I see no risks, based on science. I'm a science nerd.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Cerridwen said:


> There's actuarally a fair share of scientific research being done on feline blood types. It's a very well explored field in feline medicine. The only one that puts doubt in breeders minds is Dr. Addie and she doesn't have the scienfitic research to back up her claims.


I disagree about it being the only one. I have read the messybeasts article, Dr Addie's article and the FAB article. Not one of them allude, in my eyes, to Ab with b kittens being safe - FAB seem to skirt over this. That's _three _articles I have read on blood grouping.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> I disagree about it being the only one. I have read the messybeasts article, Dr Addie's article and the FAB article. Not one of them allude, in my eyes, to Ab with b kittens being safe - FAB seem to skirt over this. That's _three _articles I have read on blood grouping.


1. Once again, Dr. Addie do not back up her statement with any science.

2. The FAB article clearly states that there are no issues with b-kittens nursing A-queens. Blood transfusion and nursing are VERY different.

3. It's perfectly possible that misleading information is reproduced and spread on the internet, finding itself into many different articles. It doesn't make the information true. Always go back to the source, to the science and there is no science that shows that b-kittens are harmed by the colostrum from an A-queen (and the science has been done).


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

havoc said:


> Well this thread has proved you're going to get differing and conflicting answers.


lol I know! Ive always followed that chart, Ive actually heard of bengals being bred to british that have all died at the birth aswell, and was told it was due to blood grouping issues, this was a while ago so my mind is fuzzy on it :blink:

Ive always stuck to that rule, but now people are coming up with other things, its very confusing :blink:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Wheres all your lovely people gone?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Haven't read all of this interesting thread, bit late now, but wll do tomorrow. My understanding of certain matings re blood group incompatibility is VERY different to my experience of it.

My 'understanding' is what I read on on-line via what I generally consider to be highly reliable sources; Diane Addie's web site being one of them.

My 'experience' tells a completely different story. I don't really like quoting "long experience" of something because, as we all know, just because you've been at something for a long time doesn't necessarily mean that you've gained an awful lot of insight. But I can only relate my own experience which, I have add, exactly reflects that of breeder/friends.

In close to thirty years of breeding, I have owned four studs all of whom, by coincidence, were blood group A. Over that time I have mated innumerable blood group b queens to them and have NEVER lost a kitten with blood group incompatibility.

Based on that, whatever the credentials of the experts who might claim otherwise, I won't be doing anything different in a hurry!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I knew I should have left adding to this thread until I'd had a good night's sleep  

The penultimate para should have read the other way around on the blood groups.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> I knew I should have left adding to this thread until I'd had a good night's sleep
> 
> The penultimate para should have read the other way around on the blood groups.


LOL I did the same the other night...


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## saz6399 (Mar 4, 2016)

gskinner123 said:


> Haven't read all of this interesting thread, bit late now, but wll do tomorrow. My understanding of certain matings re blood group incompatibility is VERY different to my experience of it.
> 
> My 'understanding' is what I read on on-line via what I generally consider to be highly reliable sources; Diane Addie's web site being one of them.
> 
> ...


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