# Cross-breeding



## flev (Mar 6, 2011)

OK, so this thread got me thinking...

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/286337-brick-wall-bang-head-hard.html

I get that most of the people on here who are breeders are doing so in order to further particular breeds. But I assume that at some point way back in the dim and distant past, at least some of the breeds we have today came about because of cross-breeding between two other breeds.

So, what I'm wondering is if there are any situations where deliberate cross-breeding (not an 'oops' litter) is ethical? And why or why not?

Please note, I have no intention of ever breeding, and am not trying to start an argument - I am genuinely curious and would be interested to know your views.

Thanks,

Jacqui


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

flev said:


> OK, so this thread got me thinking...
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-chat/286337-brick-wall-bang-head-hard.html
> 
> ...


I know that persians were at one time crossed with british to give a bigger gene pool to the breed i think it was also done to put some shape into them but no0t 100% on that part.

This is why you some times get a british longhair crop up.

I believe the snow shoe was created from a siamese and an american shorthair.

Ill be shot for this bit but im not totally against moggy litters if its done ethically.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Not that long ago really 

The tonkinese for example result of crossing burmese and Siamese.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Ocicats are another example of a hybrid breed and there are a fair number of others. Some breeds are even the result of 'oops' litters with a moggy parent. The whole point of any particular 'breed' is that particular (unique) traits are seen and singled out to be bred on. When these particular traits are breeding true from generation to generation you've got another breed. It's a bit more regulated than that to get a breed recognised. Think the GCCF requires 15 breeders to be working on a new breed and registering the offspring.

Adding - I guess the answer to the moral issue is whether someone is truly working towards a stated aim or just randomly crossing anything they have with anything else around. The former is hard work,hard on the pocket and a labour of love. The latter .................... isn't.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> Ocicats are another example of a hybrid breed and there are a fair number of others. Some breeds are even the result of 'oops' litters with a moggy parent. The whole point of any particular 'breed' is that particular (unique) traits are seen and singled out to be bred on. When these particular traits are breeding true from generation to generation you've got another breed. It's a bit more regulated than that to get a breed recognised. *Think the GCCF requires 15 breeders to be working on a new breed and registering the offspring.*
> 
> Adding - I guess the answer to the moral issue is whether someone is truly working towards a stated aim or just randomly crossing anything they have with anything else around. The former is hard work,hard on the pocket and a labour of love. The latter .................... isn't.


Interesting that havoc is that the same in regards to new colour/pattrens ie cp & white in the bsh.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

I had one of the first Burmillas (25 years ago) result of Burmese and Chinchilla
Persian - beautiful cat!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

rose said:


> I had one of the first Burmillas (25 years ago) result of Burmese and Chinchilla
> Persian - beautiful cat!


Piccys


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes there are in many breeds that currently are able to outcross.

In my breed, for example, the Birman they are permitted crossing breeds as an "outcross" to colourpoint Persians of specific colours. This is done in an attempt to widen the gene pool.

If I go back far enough on my Birmans' pedigrees I can find moggies, Siamese & Persians from breeding practices in the 40s to the 70s.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Well i have a interesting question;

Say i bred my stud to a moggy to widen the gene pool '' how do you get GCCF to exept they are pedigrees??

I assume they would go on a reference register but how on earth would you explain that to gccf.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> Piccys


Will try and dig some out and scan them, wont be until next week (when Im back at work!) It was a lady in Letcombe Regis Oxfordshire who was establishing the breed. Mine was a peachy colour, the aim was a short silver white ticked coat!! Lovely nature - such a long time ago !


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

we love bsh's said:


> Well i have a interesting question;
> 
> Say i bred my stud to a moggy to widen the gene pool '' how do you get GCCF to exept they are pedigrees??
> 
> I assume they would go on a reference register but how on earth would you explain that to gccf.


It depends on the breeding policy for the breed in question. If all the breeders or enough breeders want to use a moggy then they approach the BAC (breed advisory committee) who would vote on the matter & raise it at a GCCF council for voting across the board. At least that is my understanding.

I believe there is a breed that accepts moggies (is it Burmese???) as the gene pool is so tiny.

I believe once the breed/moggie is accept as part of an outcrossing practice then they would have to go through several generations before they can be shown.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

messyhearts said:


> It depends on the breeding policy for the breed in question. If all the breeders or enough breeders want to use a moggy then they approach the BAC (breed advisory committee) who would vote on the matter & raise it at a GCCF council for voting across the board. At least that is my understanding.
> 
> I believe there is a breed that accepts moggies (is it Burmese???) as the gene pool is so tiny.
> 
> I believe once the breed/moggie is accept as part of an outcrossing practice then they would have to go through several generations before they can be shown.


Right that makes sense thankyou MH.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

messyhearts said:


> <snip>
> I believe there is a breed that accepts moggies (is it Burmese???) as the gene pool is so tiny.
> <snip>


Not Burmese.

With the GCCF Devon Cornish Rex used to allow non-pedigrees a while back, the Australian Mist does so long as they are the right colour - Blue and Brown Spotted Tabby or Blue and Brown Classic Tabby - and tested to make sure they don't carry longhair.

Other registries may have different rules.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

As far as I'm aware, you could use a moggy wherever you wanted, but the pcat must then be bred to only the chosen breed. in 5 generations, when your cat's pedigree shows only the chosen breed, then you are able to show them with GCCF. Please correct me if wrong!


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## flev (Mar 6, 2011)

Thanks guys, this is fascinating. I'd never thought much about the process, ethnics etc of breeding cats (or any other animals) until I came onto this site. It does make sense that the traits of two breeds can be combined to form a 'new' breed, but I had no idea that some of the breeds like the Tonkinese and Showshoe were relatively recent. 

Presumably if a new breed is created, people would have to outbreed for a while in order to get enough cats to start a decent line? I mean, not to end up breeding brothers and sisters? In that situation, would you breed one of your 'new' breed to one of the original breeds, or keep cross-breeding the original two breeds to produce several of the new breed?


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I guess it would depend on the aim is - I would assume, if we are talking ethically, then there is an aim to make a breed that meets a set criteria. So you would want a broad base of 1st generations & then be able to use those to form the basis of a breeding programme. 



carly87 said:


> As far as I'm aware, you could use a moggy wherever you wanted, but the pcat must then be bred to only the chosen breed. in 5 generations, when your cat's pedigree shows only the chosen breed, then you are able to show them with GCCF. Please correct me if wrong!


I wasn't sure about this as I had thought it wasn't permitted if it hadn't been approved for a breed. Not 100% by any means though!


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> Yes there are in many breeds that currently are able to outcross.
> 
> In my breed, for example, the Birman they are permitted crossing breeds as an "outcross" to colourpoint Persians of specific colours. This is done in an attempt to widen the gene pool.
> 
> If I go back far enough on my Birmans' pedigrees I can find moggies, Siamese & Persians from breeding practices in the 40s to the 70s.


My birman came from Purindoors who does an out cross programme. I assume my boy has persian in him as his fur is so much thicker than the birman I had 35 years ago, I rarely brushed that one, my Gino needs constant grooming :rolleyes5:

The beautiful boy in my pic is a siamese x devon rex, gorgeous lad!


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

rose said:


> My birman came from Purindoors who does an out cross programme. I assume my boy has persian in him as his fur is so much thicker than the birman I had 35 years ago, I rarely brushed that one, my Gino needs constant grooming :rolleyes5:
> 
> The beautiful boy in my pic is a siamese x devon rex, gorgeous lad!


His colour could have an impact too as the red lines are "more persian-y" as that's how the colour was introduced. Or he could be part of an outcross programme.


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> His colour could have an impact too as the red lines are "more persian-y" as that's how the colour was introduced. Or he could be part of an outcross programme.


Now you tell me!!!!


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Well i have a interesting question;
> 
> Say i bred my stud to a moggy to widen the gene pool '' how do you get GCCF to exept they are pedigrees??
> 
> I assume they would go on a reference register but how on earth would you explain that to gccf.


my moggy ,mika would like to be bred with one of ur females for this experiment, his crown jewels are going on the 24th of this month... i will cancel the appointment if u take up the offer 
he would make an excellent father


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

rose said:


> Now you tell me!!!!


Aww hes pointed :001_wub:


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

Yes great big red point boy!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Sphynx are one breed outcrossed to Moggies here, Munchkins are another that side of the pedigree would just read 'unknown'

My breed, Ocicats are still allowed to outcross to Abyssinians. The first generation is ticked, the second will have spots. In my association they cannot be shown until 4th generation from the Aby. I have one 'F4' girl, my mentor ran an outcross program with several lines - permission is required to outcross over here and kept progeny must be presented to judges to ensure programs are kept on track.

Ocicats were actually an oops (in the early 60's), the Siamese and Aby were deliberately crossed but the spotted result was not what they were trying for at all.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Say i bred my stud to a moggy to widen the gene pool '' how do you get GCCF to exept they are pedigrees??
> I assume they would go on a reference register but how on earth would you explain that to gccf.


No explanation necessary as they'd be registered 'no recognised breed' They wouldn't be pedigree cats.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> As far as I'm aware, you could use a moggy wherever you wanted, but the pcat must then be bred to only the chosen breed. in 5 generations, when your cat's pedigree shows only the chosen breed, then you are able to show them with GCCF. Please correct me if wrong!


Think it would take longer - until the moggie is out of sight they will all be on the reference register, then you can start registering on the next level up and so on.

And breeding to any old moggie is a great way to introduce undesirable genes because of it's unknown background - as anything other than an 'oops' it should be carefully choosen for what it will bring to the breed, and gene tested as well for all sorts of things including PKD and PRA.

It would be so easy, for example, to accidentally introduce longhair that way...


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

In my organisation (FiFe), you can only cross breed after you receive approval from the organisation and only SOME cross breeds are allowed (for eg. BSH and Exotic Shorthair). The parent cats still have to go for tests and all that so it isn't just about every idiot saying "ho, I have a Ragdoll and a Burmilla, they will have such cute babies!".


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> it isn't just about every idiot saying "ho, I have a Ragdoll and a Burmilla, they will have such cute babies!"


It isn't in the GCCF either. Random crosses would be registered as 'no recognised breed'.


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

Scottish Folds are bred to British Shorthairs. It's actually the recommended mating, preferred over Fold x Straight as kittens can be mistakenly registered as straights instead of folds.

I can find Persians, Exotics, Russian Blues, Siamese and moggies from my British Shorthairs' pedigrees. My British Longhair queen was imported from Germany, and she has Selkirk Rex in her lines which is why I can't show her in TICA (her kittens are however 'pure enough' to be shown). I'm not very proud of it, but due to her new/rare colour (black silver shaded point) I had to choose between very high (too high IMO) inbreeding or an outcross which is not accepted in the registries I'm most familiar with. It was accepted outcross in Germany though. I do not like it, but think it's a lesser evil than too inbred cat.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

i have an active BSH with a Persian Sire, this has been purposely done and i requested her on the active and she is (in build) my most typey BSH queen and i am sooo looking forward to her first litter. I think outrosses still have their place in the pedigree world. But Raggamese mmmmmm think someone has taken the designer breeds in the dog world and gone aaahhh that'll cover my bum...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lucy1012 said:


> i have an active BSH with a Persian Sire, this has been purposely done and i requested her on the active and she is (in build) my most typey BSH queen and i am sooo looking forward to her first litter. I think outrosses still have their place in the pedigree world. But Raggamese mmmmmm think someone has taken the designer breeds in the dog world and gone aaahhh that'll cover my bum...


What kind of BSH are you hoping to breed? Just curious, I had no idea Persians were an allowable outcross, thought the dispensation for people breeding tipped & golden tipped expired in Oct 2009.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Persians and exotics are allowable outcrosses for the BSH. I looked at a lot of litters last year searching for this girl, but i feel that in general they are becoming too fine in face and body and have big lug holes. Sorrel IMO is a good medium size cat, stocky in body on short legs just how i like my British. Her face is too persian as you can imagine, but i am hoping to inject some size and coat quality into my line. I have no idea if it will work or what i am doing really and if i am completely honest i would like to have a dabble with British Longhairs.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Is this outcross with GCCF?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

yes she is GCCF registered but i will be dual registering her with TICA, when I get round to being able not to cry when i part with all the money needed for the certified pedigrees etc, I have 4 to do.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

flev said:


> Thanks guys, this is fascinating. I'd never thought much about the process, ethnics etc of breeding cats (or any other animals) until I came onto this site. It does make sense that the traits of two breeds can be combined to form a 'new' breed, but I had no idea that some of the breeds like the Tonkinese and Showshoe were relatively recent.
> 
> Presumably if a new breed is created, people would have to outbreed for a while in order to get enough cats to start a decent line? I mean, not to end up breeding brothers and sisters? In that situation, would you breed one of your 'new' breed to one of the original breeds, or keep cross-breeding the original two breeds to produce several of the new breed?


Actuarially many breeds have produced spontaneously due to specific geographic conditions. Meaning they are not created by crossbreedin existing breeds, rather preserved as breeds. The European Shorthair is the old common domestic shorthair from Scandinavia. Breeders simply gathered domestics and started to breed them in order to preserve this type of cat. They still get domestics registred as European Shorthairs. It the same for the Maine Coon, Norwegian Forest Cat, Korat, Sokoke, Siberian Cat and probably some other breed I've forgotten.

But yes, if you do create a breed by crossbreeding you'll need to do quite some outcrossing in order not to get problems with inbreeding. The original breeds are usually preferred.

I breed Devon Rexes and have outcrossed with British Shorthair. It's quite an interesting way to breed.


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