# Arn't check chains and slip leads the same as a choke chain?



## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

Would you say this is true?

If they are not please explain why.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

Can open. Worms everywhere.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat...-between-slip-leads-collars-choke-chains.html


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I use rolled leather slip leads, and one rope one for my dogs (haven't got round to buying another leather one yet) - and yes, they have the same action as a check chain but are obviously made from different materials. 

If people ask me what to buy for their pups, I usually say a flat collar and lead to clip on to it, simply because many would put a dog on a slip lead and not realise you need to train them not to pull, so they're not choking themselves. The reason I like them is they're quick to take on and off, my dogs pretty much walk into the loop when I ask them to, and sit nicely when they're taken off (except Zasa who is a work in progress). They are then free of anything that would snag when I'm training them. They do have collars if I take them anywhere I feel they need to wear one


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

Slip leads tend to have a rubber bung to stop them from tightening them all the way up.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Simply put yes i believe so. Especially if used in ignorance.
Eta if you mean semi checks as well they are slightly different.


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## HLT93 (Aug 14, 2013)

I suppose they are, however i would not use slip lead on a dog which pulls so therefore it never really tightens on my dogs. I only use them when going from house to car, or when round someones house and need a method of restraint as slip leads are easy and effective. 

But i would not use them on a dog which pulls, but with a choke chain people tend to use them because there dog pulls.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Wilmer said:


> Slip leads tend to have a rubber bung to stop them from tightening them all the way up.


It's the other way round, the 'stop' stops the lead from slackening too far. None of my leads have a stop on them, and if Zasa is pulling too much, she gets the lead looped over her muzzle to stop her, it's a short term solution and not something I would recommend using all the time, but when you're walking four dogs it's impossible to instill good heel work with the one that is least trained - granted, she copies the others to some extent, but will wander backwards and forwards and from side to side. Any heelwork training is done separately, it will eventually click, her mother was the same!!

Indie's the easiest, unless I'm near a road or in a built up area she just walks off lead behind me. With a lead on you wouldn't know she was there!!


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> i would not use slip lead on a dog which pulls so therefore it never really tightens on my dogs


I think there is an arbitary myth surrounding the 'tightening' theory, probably due to 'choke' chains being called by that name. Non of them mentioned actually tighten around the dogs throat & affect breathing, if thats what people mean. Non of them are much different to a flat buckle on the dogs neck/throat, the dog is at one side or other of the owner & if its pulling it is forward of owner but also with right side or left side bias. Whichever collar is on the pulling dog it is pulled forwards, with a right or left bias & has a gap where the lead is attached. Choke chains or flat buckles both put the greatest amount of pressure on the specific area of the neck which is physically responsible for the pulling motion, non of the collars actually tighten all the way around the neck, any 'choking' phenomina is simply on that specific pressure point.
.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Slip leads are generally used so you can get the lead on and off quickly without having to fiddle with clips. Also if used without a collar there is nothing to get caught in bushes etc... they are usually used for working dogs for the above reasons. I love slip leads. I wouldn't use one on a puppy until it's learned to walk nicely though.


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

SleepyBones said:


> I think there is an arbitary myth surrounding the 'tightening' theory, probably due to 'choke' chains being called by that name. Non of them mentioned actually tighten around the dogs throat & affect breathing, if thats what people mean. Non of them are much different to a flat buckle on the dogs neck/throat, the dog is at one side or other of the owner & if its pulling it is forward of owner but also with right side or left side bias. Whichever collar is on the pulling dog it is pulled forwards, with a right or left bias & has a gap where the lead is attached. Choke chains or flat buckles both put the greatest amount of pressure on the specific area of the neck which is physically responsible for the pulling motion, non of the collars actually tighten all the way around the neck, any 'choking' phenomina is simply on that specific pressure point.
> .


Seems pretty obvious to me that if you have a loop and pull it's going to tighten and therefore choke the dog.Put one round your own neck and get someone to pull and then tell me it's not actually tightening all the way round and merely a pressure point!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> but when you're walking four dogs it's impossible to instill good heel work with the one that is least trained - granted, she copies the others to some extent, but will wander backwards and forwards and from side to side. Any heelwork training is done separately, it will eventually click,


Hey! I could of written this! Very frustrating to be walking along with 3 polite dogs pottering along behind/beside you and one pinging around like a hyperactive bunny isnt it??:lol:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

polishrose said:


> Seems pretty obvious to me that if you have a loop and pull it's going to tighten and therefore choke the dog.Put one round your own neck and get someone to pull and then tell me it's not actually tightening all the way round and merely a pressure point!!


I tried this (on my arm though rather than my neck) and found that while it did tighten all the way round the point of the most discomfort was at the place where the ring was in contact with my arm. Whether pulling consistently or giving a short jerk and release.

But no, when I've used them on my dogs and they've pulled the chain has been tight the whole way round, no gap left where the leash attaches like there is with a dog pulling on a flat collar.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm not sure I really want to go here but I've trained dogs before, using a choke chain. I'm old enough to have trained dogs in the days when that was the way it was done.

If you use a broad chain NOT a narrow one and put it on correctly it doesn't hurt. The top of the loop MUST be the section of chain going directly to the lead clip. If you put a broad chain on your own wrist correctly and jerk it tight, it self-releases and it doesn't hurt at all, try it. Put it on upside down and it stays tight and it does hurt. Try it.

To train a dog to heel the dog is NEVER, EVER allowed to pull. The instant a dog moves forward the command "heel" is given and if the dog does not correct itself the chain is snapped tight and released. The dog will hesitate which puts him in the right place and he is PRAISED instantly.

Done correctly there is nothing cruel about it. Doing it correctly is quite skillful. The dog is never allowed to tighten the chain, the handler does.

I don't use one at all, now. There are other ways of doing things and I wouldn't want someone - who has no idea how to do it - to copy me. They are cruel used incorrectly.

I used to slip a chain over Rex's neck when he worked off-lead because it so easy to put on. The instructor wanted something on his neck and that's faster than using buckles. Leasedforlife made the VERY valid point that Rex may have made bad associations with chains because he used to be chained at the farm in his previous life and may have had dogs come onto "his" territory while he was chained. I binned the chain and have never used one since.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ozrex said:


> If you use a broad chain NOT a narrow one and put it on correctly it doesn't hurt. The top of the loop MUST be the section of chain going directly to the lead clip. If you put a broad chain on your own wrist correctly and jerk it tight, it self-releases and it doesn't hurt at all, try it. Put it on upside down and it stays tight and it does hurt. Try it.


I disagree. I found it painful and my dogs often screeched when checked suggesting they also found it painful.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

As has been said Slipleads have traditional been used to _slip_on to a gundog in the field where leaving a collar on in deep cover could present a risk of the dog becoming snagged and leaded to injury.

Choke chains were the training tool of choice for many years and were checked to as a punishment to correct the dog

The below is an article by Paddy Driscoll about the use of choke chains

Links - Teamwork Training - Dog Training and Behaviour Services in Lincolnshire, South London and Surrey


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Any kind of lead and collar is simply a tool. And like any tool, in the correct hands and used correctly it will serve a purpose.

You can use any collar incorrectly (even a flat collar can be buckled too tight). The same also applies to leads.

The problem is not with the tools themselves, but that some owners fail to learn how to use them properly. Someone might suggest using a choke chain to control a pulling dog, but it becomes a very cruel tool if the owner does not know how to use it.

People should not be criticised for the tools they choose to use - unless they are using them incorrectly and causing discomfort to the dog.


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## polishrose (Oct 26, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I tried this (on my arm though rather than my neck) and found that while it did tighten all the way round the point of the most discomfort was at the place where the ring was in contact with my arm. Whether pulling consistently or giving a short jerk and release.
> 
> But no, when I've used them on my dogs and they've pulled the chain has been tight the whole way round, no gap left where the leash attaches like there is with a dog pulling on a flat collar.


Try it on your neck-it's like being strangled if you pull -I did once and never used the chain again and I was taught how to use it correctly in the first place.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

polishrose said:


> Try it on your neck-it's like being strangled if you pull -I did once and never used the chain again and I was taught how to use it correctly in the first place.


The one I have isn't big enough to go over my head and I don't fancy trying on choke chains in the pet shop :lol: Bad enough having a tie too tight though, no way I want a noose tightening around my neck 

I used to use the choke chain as an extra security measure with Rupert when on the head collar, it wasn't used to correct him. If in a panic he could easily slip the halti and even a half check. I don't recall the choke chain ever coming into play but it made me feel safer to have something on him that could not be slipped out of.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I disagree. I found it painful and my dogs often screeched when checked suggesting they also found it painful.


If your dogs screeched when checked, I suggest it was used inappropriately.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ozrex said:


> If you use a broad chain NOT a narrow one and put it on correctly it doesn't hurt. The top of the loop MUST be the section of chain going directly to the lead clip. If you put a broad chain on your own wrist correctly and jerk it tight, it self-releases and it doesn't hurt at all, try it. Put it on upside down and it stays tight and it does hurt. Try it.
> 
> *If it does not hurt then why use one rather than a flat collar?
> 
> ...


Having a choke chain on a dog when it is off lead is also potentially very dangerous as of course a dog can hang himself or another dog can put their toe or tooth through the chain.

I use a choke chain when tracking my dog as per IPO regulations, but I use it on the dead link so it acts the same way as any flat collar.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm just going to quote the post that I made the last time this subject came up:



L/C said:


> It isn't - that isn't possible. For the pressure to be spread equally around the neck force would have to be applied from multiple places. The only way it can spread pressure across the whole neck is if it is continually tightening - like a noose.
> 
> I have no problem with slip leads used in a reasonable manner - I use one myself when training. I do have a problem with them being used as a training tool (a la the OP) and with the laws of physics being misrepresented.
> 
> ...


And the addition of another study for anyone interested:

Back problems - Back Study Anders Hallgreen

There's also an oft quoted study done in Germany in the 90s which studied 100 dogs - 50 with prong collars and 50 with choke chains. The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed. Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma. Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.

But there is no online source for this article except for it having been quoted in a seminar - so take it with that in mind, I have no idea if it is actually verifiable or not.


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## Tillymint (Nov 2, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's the other way round, the 'stop' stops the lead from slackening too far. None of my leads have a stop on them, and if Zasa is pulling too much, she gets the lead looped over her muzzle to stop her, it's a short term solution and not something I would recommend using all the time, but when you're walking four dogs it's impossible to instill good heel work with the one that is least trained - granted, she copies the others to some extent, but will wander backwards and forwards and from side to side. Any heelwork training is done separately, it will eventually click, her mother was the same!!
> 
> Indie's the easiest, unless I'm near a road or in a built up area she just walks off lead behind me. With a lead on you wouldn't know she was there!!


I know I first too though that the stopper on slip leads stopped them getting too tight but then realised it was the other way around! I make my own for Tilly but purposely make them so the stopper prevents it going tighter than her neck size - I use it as a quick way of getting her onlead if needed. I find them really handy, also good for if you ever find a lost dog. I take mine with me as a spare all the time.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> It isn't - that isn't possible. For the pressure to be spread equally around the neck force would have to be applied from multiple places. The only way it can spread pressure across the whole neck is if it is continually tightening - like a noose.


Yes, better explained than my post. It needs to be remembered that in the days of hanging the rope was knotted in a certain way & placed on the side of the neck, the objective in cases of hanging was to break the neck, not suffocate the person.
.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

SleepyBones said:


> It needs to be remembered that in the days of hanging the rope was knotted in a certain way & placed on the side of the neck, the objective in cases of hanging was to break the neck, not suffocate the person.
> .


The objective of hanging a person was for the person to die. You don't necessarily die of a broken neck. Hanged people died of a lack of blood flow to the brain because the carotid artery and jugular vein were blocked by the pressure of the rope. Or the fall caused the trachea to break and prevent breathing.

Dogs have very similar anatomy and the same important structures in their necks that humans do. Saying that a tightening device around these essential (and delicate) structures is not potentially dangerous is simply not true. Dogs can and do suffer injuries - both acute and chronic because of collars of all kinds.

No training device is without risk. I think it behooves all dog owners to examine each tool with accurate information, and assess it's risk/reward potential based on the handler's skill set and the dog's temperament, behavior, structure, etc.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

dandogman said:


> If your dogs screeched when checked, I suggest it was used inappropriately.


Ah yes, that old chestnut  I was taught how to use a check chain properly, it is still a physical punishment however you want to look at it and can still cause discomfort and even pain. There would be no benefit to using one as a training tool if it didn't, might as well simply give the jerk on a flat collar.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah yes, that old chestnut  I was taught how to use a check chain properly, it is still a physical punishment however you want to look at it and can still cause discomfort and even pain. There would be no benefit to using one as a training tool if it didn't, might as well simply give the jerk on a flat collar.


I personally don't use a check chain (I see them on dogs all the time, seldom being used appropriately). I still think to cause your dog (I assume Labrador - breed with strong necks) to screech, the check must have been a pretty hefty yank.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I don't like choke/check chains. Cian has a slip lead for the ring, he wears a flat collar and lead going to the show the only time the slip lead goes on is before he goes in the ring, and comes off as soon as he's out. There is also a small slip lead as an emergency lead hung in the house as Cian doesn't wear a collar.

Any collar can be abused, and they can all do as much damage as a choke/check chain.

I work Army Dogs at the time we were taught to check using a flat collar, and trust me, checking a dog on a flat collar can also make them screech  I did it once and refused to again  and these were GSD and Rotts 

So you can abuse and cause damage with all tools, head collars, harnesses choke/check chains....


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I carry slip leads with my everywhere because of straying dogs and such but they are very handy for on and off. Generally i'd not use one until the dog was trained to be on leash and not pulling like crazy & choking themselves.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ozrex said:


> I'm not sure I really want to go here but I've trained dogs before, using a choke chain. I'm old enough to have trained dogs in the days when that was the way it was done.
> 
> If you use a broad chain NOT a narrow one and put it on correctly it doesn't hurt. The top of the loop MUST be the section of chain going directly to the lead clip. If you put a broad chain on your own wrist correctly and jerk it tight, it self-releases and it doesn't hurt at all, try it. Put it on upside down and it stays tight and it does hurt. Try it.
> 
> ...


Well said. When I first took classes over 40 years ago I always demonstrated the proper use of a check chain on my wrist and got handlers to do the same. It is silly to suggest that you try it on your neck, a human neck is not protected as a dogs one is.



Sarah1983 said:


> Ah yes, that old chestnut  I was taught how to use a check chain properly, it is still a physical punishment however you want to look at it and can still cause discomfort and even pain. There would be no benefit to using one as a training tool if it didn't, might as well simply give the jerk on a flat collar.


If you check a dog with a check or half check then you are putting an even pressure all the way round the dog's neck. If you gave the same check with a flat collar you are going to be putting all the pressure over a very small area of the neck.

I would disagree that it is a physical punishment. It is not a punishment to tell someone they are doing wrong. The merest tweak is enough to remind a sensitive dog, it only becomes a jerk with a dog that is totally unfocused and as the first thing your dog should learn is to watch you then something has gone wrong with your training if you having to really jerk on it.

The OP title actually says 'aren't check chains and slip leads the same as a choke chain.

Of course the answer is that a a check chain and a choke chain are the same things by a different name. And a slip lead without the stop on will work in the same way.
When I did obedience I trained with a rope slip lead and they were sold without a stop at all the obedience shows.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> W
> 
> I would disagree that it is a physical punishment. It is not a punishment to tell someone they are doing wrong. The merest tweak is enough to remind a sensitive dog, it only becomes a jerk with a dog that is totally unfocused and as the first thing your dog should learn is to watch you then something has gone wrong with your training if you having to really jerk on it.


It IS a physical punishment anything that cause a dog to stop doing something through FEAR OF PAIN is a physical punishment....

"Physical punishment is any form of penalty in a judicial, educational or domestic setting that takes a physical form, by the infliction on the offender of pain, injury, discomfort or humiliation"

Why not teach "watch me" if your dog becomes unfocused?? :mad2:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> It IS a physical punishment anything that cause a dog to stop doing something through FEAR OF PAIN is a physical punishment....
> 
> "Physical punishment is any form of penalty in a judicial, educational or domestic setting that takes a physical form, by the infliction on the offender of pain, injury, discomfort or humiliation"
> 
> *Why not teach "watch me" if your dog becomes unfocused?? :mad2:*


*
*

Is that not what I said :mad2:

I would not agree with you that correction is the same as punishment. And by your definition then if a person/child does something they should not and they are asked not to do it and are upset at being asked they have been punished! Equally your dog is about to pick a dropped titbit off the floor and you say no and dog backs off with its ears back then you have punished it.
Or are you one of these people that truly believe no living being should ever be told not to do something - which is why there are so many out of control children around.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

It was what was always done; It was how we were taught; They must be ok because are on sale - none of these sentences make them right :mad2:

But right or wrong they are most definitely physical corrective devices. 

They may not be punitive, that depends entirely on the dog, but they are definitely physical. Some dogs would find them punishing in which case they are cruel, some dogs would barely notice in which case they are pointless.

We live in a world where people are encouraged to move away from physical corrections. It is illegal to physically correct a child so why the hell should it be any different for a dog. You arent allowed to clip your employee round the ear and drag them off for a good rollocking so why the hell would you do the same to a dog. Mans best friend my ar$e


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

dandogman said:


> I personally don't use a check chain (I see them on dogs all the time, seldom being used appropriately). I still think to cause your dog (I assume Labrador - breed with strong necks) to screech, the check must have been a pretty hefty yank.


You assume wrong, Spen is my first Lab and I stopped using those methods over 10 years ago now. I really don't think breed or strength of neck matters, Spen screeches like he's being murdered if he's slightly hurt, he's not very stoic and I have a feeling he'd yelp at being checked on a choke chain. My Rottie mix was the same and regularly yelped at the slightest check of the chain. My collie on the other hand barely seemed to notice a correction.

For what it's worth, I have no issue with giving a dog the information that it is doing something wrong, I just don't agree with giving them that information in a way that causes pain or fear.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> You assume wrong, Spen is my first Lab and I stopped using those methods over 10 years ago now. I really don't think breed or strength of neck matters, Spen screeches like he's being murdered if he's slightly hurt, he's not very stoic and I have a feeling he'd yelp at being checked on a choke chain. My Rottie mix was the same and regularly yelped at the slightest check of the chain. My collie on the other hand barely seemed to notice a correction.
> 
> For what it's worth, I have no issue with giving a dog the information that it is doing something wrong, I just don't agree with giving them that information in a way that causes pain or fear.


Just for the record, I don't use a check chain, I use a slip lead for Pippa when training as that is what gundogs wear - it helps to have a different style lead for work and play as it were. I like to use positive reinforcement where I can, but am open when it comes to others methods. If a dog screams when a chain is used, then it's not the correct tool for the dog in my opinion.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Well said. When I first took classes over 40 years ago I always demonstrated the proper use of a check chain on my wrist and got handlers to do the same. It is silly to suggest that you try it on your neck, a human neck is not protected as a dogs one is.
> 
> *It is silly to suggest that a dog's neck is protected; protected by what exactly? *
> 
> ...


Do tell, what level of obedience did you reach, did you make up any Obediene Champions?


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

Its interesting to see everyones views on the subject as a new dog owner having just owned dogs for 2 years I am keen to learn about appropriate leads for the right owner and dog.

I would use them if I thought they would benefit my dog but I would only put a sliplead on a dog that did not pull to take them from A B quickly.

I have used a gencon and would recomend they are very similar and DO work in teaching pully and strong dogs how to walk nicely it took 6 months but my dog is now a lot better thanks to the gencon she still pulls if mum comes but I think that will all ways be the case when I'm on my own she is very obediant. Their usefull for getting the dog into a building it doesn't want to go in like th vets.

If I use any other leads to go to the vets with my dog she panics the second she gets to the door but if I put the gencon she goes in without any fuss at all the panic is taken away from her.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Its interesting to see everyones views on the subject as a new dog owner having just owned dogs for 2 years I am keen to learn about appropriate leads for the right owner and dog.
> 
> I would use them if I thought they would benefit my dog but I would only put a sliplead on a dog that did not pull to take them from A B quickly.
> 
> ...


Is it?

Has her emotional state changed and if so how and why?

Or, are you merely able to force her to do something that she would not do otherwise.

As your dog is so small, why not pick her up?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Do tell, what level of obedience did you reach, did you make up any Obediene Champions?


No I didnt, I was not dedicated enough though I had friends that did. I only worked mine up to and including B.

Of course a dogs neck is more protected than a humans. If you chained a human up and the roared around pulling and leaping they would have a very damaged neck and probably die - many dogs do that all their lives with no ill effects.

No, it is not tosh. It is obvious that if you pull something that tightens evenly it puts an even pressure on the neck. If you have something that is not tight it only pulls on the side that is pulled against.
(I thought that would be obvious to anyone)

Cant be bothered to respond to the rest of your replies as I have to go out now.


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## HLT93 (Aug 14, 2013)

Prowl said:


> Its interesting to see everyones views on the subject as a new dog owner having just owned dogs for 2 years I am keen to learn about appropriate leads for the right owner and dog.
> 
> I would use them if I thought they would benefit my dog but I would only put a sliplead on a dog that did not pull to take them from A B quickly.
> 
> ...


I agree, i use gencons on my dogs and give great control and now my dogs are alot better at walking on lead.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> No I didnt, I was not dedicated enough though I had friends that did. I only worked mine up to and including B.
> 
> Of course a dogs neck is more protected than a humans. If you chained a human up and the roared around pulling and leaping they would have a very damaged neck and probably die - many dogs do that all their lives with no ill effects.
> 
> ...


You cannot be bothered because science does not support your findings I am afraid.

Many dogs DO have very damaged necks and have collapsed trachea, laryngeal paralysis or worse.

I should go out if I were you and buy some logic, some common sense and visit a forensic lab and ask for injuries due to nooses, who knows, you might actually learn something.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Slip chain, choke chains and check chains are all the same to me. 


I could imagine a choke chain of whatever you want to call them, could cause a dog that's has a build like Chester.. quite a lot of damage 

Imagine putting a choke chain and using it incorrectly ( if there is actually a correct way to use one ) on an Italian greyhound or a small whippet


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Is it?
> 
> Has her emotional state changed and if so how and why?
> 
> ...


At over 14KG she isn't that small. 
Your still forcing your dog if you have to pick them up to go in.

The gencon takes the panic out of her I have never yanked or forced her in she went in on her own on the gencon but would not on a normal lead.

she also settled in the vets a lot quicker going in on the gencon then if she had on a normal leash. If she kept pulling on the lead I would not use it. Their is no force in a gencon if its used correctly and its been introduced propperly.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I have used this blog several times for information relating to head collars and harnesses:

Dog Blog: Head-collars

The gencon (which I think is mentioned above) seems to be one of the type of head collar devices that tightens around the muzzle. I personally wouldn't use one, or any similar that clamps around the muzzle.


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## loukodi (Oct 27, 2010)

A slip lead has been a life saver for me at times. Working in the kennels lots of dogs were brought in for assessment and rehoming, the last thing im going to do is try and snap a normal lead onto its collar (if it even has one) while its corned and frightened in a kennel with the potential to be aggressive. It could easily slip its collar then I would have a loose, frightened potentially aggressive dog on my hands. A slip gave so much more control to me as the handler and allows the dog to stay a nice distance away from me until I can gain some trust. 

A check chain is often used as a collar not as a training aid.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have used this blog several times for information relating to head collars and harnesses:
> 
> Dog Blog: Head-collars
> 
> The gencon (which I think is mentioned above) seems to be one of the type of head collar devices that tightens around the muzzle. I personally wouldn't use one, or any similar that clamps around the muzzle.


If they are introduced propperly they are good for the owner and a dog even a plain collar on a dog that pulls can be dangerous it still strangles the dog it just doesn't tighten.

When I used a gencon my dog adjusted to it very quickly we both enjoyed our walks again she did not pull at all. Their is no yanking involved neither should their be on a normal lead as this creates pulling.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Of course a dogs neck is more protected than a humans. If you chained a human up and the roared around pulling and leaping they would have a very damaged neck and probably die - many dogs do that all their lives with no ill effects. Utter TOSH


I am so worried that people like yourself have given advise and still give advise about dog training.. Times change things move on scientific research has proven a lot of "old" school punishment damages dogs, you can dress it up any way you want, it's physical punishment, and it's not needed, I think personally that a trainer who resorts to physical punishment shows HUGE lack of knowledge and skills...

Dr. Julie Kaufman, specializing in animal chiropractic, (Animal Holistic Care Specialists: Keeping it Natural! | Animal Holistic Care Specialists, it's only natural, all natural all the time, Natural veterinary, dog, cat, exotic, veterinary, Horse, animal, chiropractic, horse chiropractic, vet, natural vet) has treated dogs with "KNOWN" [her emphasis] injuries directly caused from a choke-chain; from a sudden jerk or pull from the leash/chain/rope; or from being tied outside. A collar puts pressure on the neck in what, too often, results in injuries to the dog. Dr. Kaufman explains, "One dog was completely paralyzed in both front legs following a jerk on the collar. She had several discs blown as a result and eventually regained movement after weeks of chiropractic and acupuncture [treatments]. In fact, neck injuries from collars are so common that we see new cases every few weeks."
Dr. Kaufman often uses a model dog skeleton to illustrate how pulling will affect the joint segments. This helps dog owners visualize how a small tug can easily injure or even slightly dislocate a segment of the spine. She adds, "Since research indicates that it only takes the weight of a dime to depress a nerve's function by 50%, it's understandable how a tug on a narrow collar could cause major pressure and trauma to a small area of the neck. If you catch the neck at a critical angle, you could blow a disc, cause nerve or muscle injury or worse."

Pulling On Lead Damage - Canine Matters

However, one of the clearest correlation's in the whole study was between cervical (neck) damages and 'jerk and pull'. 91% of the dogs who had neck injuries had also been exposed to jerking and pulling on the lead by the owner or had been allowed to pull hard on the leash for long periods of time.
Authors note: - A very low percentage of the dogs that had no cervical injuries had been exposed to jerking or allowed to pull for long periods.

"Check chains may have been the preferred training tool 30/40 years ago but we didn't know much, if anything, about operant conditioning then. We know better now. There is evidence of physical harm. The literature and the expertise is out there on kinder, more effective techniques so there is no excuse for using outdated and damaging methods. Using a check chain may tell the dog something about what isn't wanted, but little about what is. It focuses on very damaging aspects of the training equation (punishment or negative reinforcement), and the part that does the most damage. Criticising the dog's efforts; using discomfort and maybe pain in an attempt to force compliance from our dogs is just not acceptable. As a training tool the check chain is crude, outdated and unnecessary."


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Prowl said:


> If they are introduced propperly they are good for the owner and a dog even a plain collar on a dog that pulls can be dangerous it still strangles the dog it just doesn't tighten.
> 
> When I used a gencon my dog adjusted to it very quickly we both enjoyed our walks again she did not pull at all. Their is no yanking involved neither should their be on a normal lead as this creates pulling.


Whilst that may be true, if your dog did pull the headcollar would put pressure around the muzzle, which, done consistently is painful. So basically, your dog has learned not to pull because it will be painful.

There are a couple of head collars listed that don't work in this way, but offer good control.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

As a novice dog owner in my opinion my best course of action is to not use neck control at all ( and have you seen the size of my dogs neck  ). Granted I'm not going to win any obedience competitions but I can walk to the field or down the road in a mostly controlled manner. Everyone agrees that all these tools can be made to work in the right hands ( eg. a slip lead is ok for a working dog who doesn't pull anyway ) but the key question is what percentage of hands are the right hands ? I know lots of pet owners but only one who works their dog. Most likely my hands are the wrong hands for all of these tools because I'm just an average Joe pet owner.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> As a novice dog owner in my opinion my best course of action is to not use neck control at all ( and have you seen the size of my dogs neck  ). Granted I'm not going to win any obedience competitions but I can walk to the field or down the road in a mostly controlled manner. Everyone agrees that all these tools can be made to work in the right hands ( eg. *a slip lead is ok for a working dog who doesn't pull anyway* ) but the key question is what percentage of hands are the right hands ? I know lots of pet owners but only one who works their dog. Most likely my hands are the wrong hands for all of these tools because I'm just an average Joe pet owner.


But they're not born that way, it does involve a little bit of training 

Joking aside, I find my dogs walk better off lead better, once trained there's not much difference, but when in training, putting anything onto them gives them something to pull into.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Prowl said:


> If they are introduced propperly they are good for the owner and a dog even a plain collar on a dog that pulls can be dangerous it still strangles the dog it just doesn't tighten.
> 
> When I used a gencon my dog adjusted to it very quickly we both enjoyed our walks again she did not pull at all. Their is no yanking involved neither should their be on a normal lead as this creates pulling.


But a head collar is not the right tool for all dogs. Some dogs find them extremely aversive no matter how much "kinder" they're supposed to be than other tools. I know many dogs who wear prongs and choke chains and I've yet to see one who is distressed simply by having the collar on yet I've seen many dogs shut down and unhappy just because they have a head collar on. It is the dog who decides what is aversive and what is rewarding, not the human. Just because something makes it easier for the human doesn't necessarily mean it's nicer or easier for the dog.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But they're not born that way, it does involve a little bit of training


I realize that. I assume it's either done to comply with the law or as an emergency measure and not used to control the dog.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Joking aside, I find my dogs walk better off lead better, once trained there's not much difference, but when in training, putting anything onto them gives them something to pull into.


Right.. which is why I use a harness.. because I believe it's the tool I can do least damage with.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diefenbaker said:


> I realize that. I assume it's either done to comply with the law or as an emergency measure and not used to control the dog.


I think it's just a traditional lead, which still works for the purpose today, ie it slips on and off easily. Those who work their dogs for the most part do not like seeing collars on their dogs, as there is the possibility of them getting snagged up, which can, if they're in water, be fatal.


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## Mad4Collies (Jun 19, 2013)

McKenzie said:


> *Can open. Worms everywhere.
> *
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat...-between-slip-leads-collars-choke-chains.html


You must be psychic! :sosp:


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

If a dog pulls on its lead it is effectively strangling itself for pleasure 

Because he gets were he wants to go quicker and most owners are only too willing to allow thier dogs to do this.

If you use a slip to get from A-B you are still forcing your dog to get somewher as you are with any lead!!


A gencon just achieves what you want more easily if you use it propperly their is very little force or strangling involved actually their is no more throttling involved then in a normal lead.

I certainly would not use a lead I thought was causing any harm to my dog.

Gencons should never be yanked or pulled if you do you hurt your dog just as you would with a normal lead.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Prowl said:


> If a dog pulls on its lead it is effectively strangling itself for pleasure
> 
> Because he gets were he wants to go quicker and most owners are only too willing to allow thier dogs to do this.
> 
> ...


You're missing the point, the only reason your dog doesn't pull, is because pulling hurts. I completely agree, pulling against a collar and lead can and most likely will hurt. Pulling against a head collar that tightens around their muzzle also hurts. That's just not how I want to train my dogs, I prefer more positive methods.

I do think a lot of people buy them without being aware of how they really work. The blurb mentions *pressure* usually, but if you put pressure in the same place constantly, that is simply painful. Gencons shouldn't be worn, let alone yanked or pulled, there are better alternatives that do not tighten and cause pressure/pain


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> I think there is an arbitary myth surrounding the 'tightening' theory, probably due to 'choke' chains being called by that name. Non of them mentioned actually tighten around the dogs throat & affect breathing, if thats what people mean. Non of them are much different to a flat buckle on the dogs neck/throat, the dog is at one side or other of the owner & if its pulling it is forward of owner but also with right side or left side bias. Whichever collar is on the pulling dog it is pulled forwards, with a right or left bias & has a gap where the lead is attached. Choke chains or flat buckles both put the greatest amount of pressure on the specific area of the neck which is physically responsible for the pulling motion, non of the collars actually tighten all the way around the neck, any 'choking' phenomina is simply on that specific pressure point.
> .


Canine physiotherapists would tell you that is not true


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Prowl said:


> If a dog pulls on its lead it is effectively strangling itself for pleasure
> 
> Because he gets were he wants to go quicker and most owners are only too willing to allow thier dogs to do this.
> 
> ...


But it's tightens round their muzzle and the FEAR of discomfort stops them from pulling.. Like all the collars and leads, head collars are a method of restraining your dog, involving the head or neck, don't kid yourself that it's any fairer or nicer for the dog than any other method... It's a tool made to stop a dog doing something the fact you have to desensitize a dog to a head collar show's it's not a pleasant experience for them, doesn't matter if you don't pull or yank if your dog lunges it can do serious damage to it's neck and spine, the same as all the other types of collars.......

I prefer to train my dog to heel and walk as often as possible without a lead


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> You cannot be bothered because science does not support your findings I am afraid.
> 
> Many dogs DO have very damaged necks and have collapsed trachea, laryngeal paralysis or worse.
> 
> I should go out if I were you and buy some logic, some common sense and visit a forensic lab and ask for injuries due to nooses, who knows, you might actually learn something.


You really are a very rude person. It is not really worth replying to you when you are in this mood.

I did not reply to you in full because the phone rang when I had partially replied and I had to go out. Do you understand that or do you want to say stupid things again.

I am now not going to reply because it is pointless to speak to someone who does not listen to what I say and is so rude. And not just to me - you really do lack people skills.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I am so worried that people like yourself have given advise and still give advise about dog training.. Times change things move on scientific research has proven a lot of "old" school punishment damages dogs, you can dress it up any way you want, it's physical punishment, and it's not needed, I think personally that a trainer who resorts to physical punishment shows HUGE lack of knowledge and skills...
> 
> ]


Erm, where have I said that I use check chains or advise that others do. Like every dog trainer I used to - that was normal. I have not used check chains on any of my dogs for probably 35 years so actually I am quite advanced as most people still did then. I encouraged others to use half checks and kept a stock of half checks for people coming to my classes. When I was a trainer at a dog club I used check chains as did all the trainers and I showed the correct use of them.
I no longer take classes, I had to stop years ago because of back problems.

It does not alter the fact that I still think a correctly used check chain is a useful tool. Problem is that very few are used correctly.

Surely anyone can see that a tweak (and that is all it should be) or even a jerk on a check chain causes it to tighten all the way round the neck so that there is an even pressure whereas a tweak (or jerk) on a plain collar causes the collar to tighten in a small area, leaving no pressure on the rest of the neck. If a dog is pulling ahead on a plain collar it is getting the full force on its windpipe. Though it should never pull on a check chain it does distribute the force evenly round the neck. That is fact whether or not you think the check chain should be used in the first place.

And NO - I am still not suggesting that check chains SHOULD be used - but they used to be used and that is how they worked. There are now vast arrays of headcollars and harnesses which should make it easier for owners to get their dogs walking well on the lead and as each dog is different and each owner has a different level of skill they can choose for themselves what they feel suits their partnership. I have no idea if that is a good or a bad thing but training and discipline seems to have been taken over by gadgets and that is the world we live in now.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> [/SIZE][/B]
> 
> Is that not what I said :mad2:
> 
> ...


I missed this I really do wish people would stop equating children and human habits to dogs...............there is no comparison.... NONE!!!

I do not believe you have to PHYSICALLY punish a dog. Scruffing which you admit too, jerking/"tweaking" a check chain ( baring in mind what's gone on before this to make your dog wary of the chain) is out dated. I will use tone of voice yes, mostly I use reward based training but I don't need to physically correct or punish my dog...........


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> No I didnt, I was not dedicated enough though I had friends that did. I only worked mine up to and including B.
> 
> Of course a dogs neck is more protected than a humans. If you chained a human up and the roared around pulling and leaping they would have a very damaged neck and probably die - many dogs do that all their lives with no ill effects.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but that is not true. A lot of dogs go undiagnosed and the vet treats an injury at the other end of the body which has been over used as the dog has over compensated for a neck injury.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> It does not alter the fact that I still think a correctly used check chain is a useful tool. Problem is that very few are used correctly.


So explain how it's correctly used and how it's useful...

Explain how the dog reacts and is conditioned to this "tweak"?

You ignored all the research in to the damage that choke/check chains cause, even though you state they don't cause much.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I missed this I really do wish people would stop equating children and human habits to dogs...............there is no comparison.... NONE!!!
> 
> I do not believe you have to PHYSICALLY punish a dog. Scruffing which you admit too, jerking/"tweaking" a check chain ( baring in mind what's gone on before this to make your dog wary of the chain) is out dated. I will use tone of voice yes, mostly I use reward based training but I don't need to physically correct or punish my dog...........


CAN YOU READ. I have just told you I have not used a check chain on any of my dogs for 35 years. What are you talking about - what has gone on to make my dog wary of the chain, you have completely lost me now.

I think your problem is that you make assumptions. Use of check chains, scruffing, dominance theory etc etc are still used by VERY main trainers and pet owners. I see them used all the time - I do not use a check chain. I would only scruff in an extreme case and I have never liked or agreed with the rigid dominance theory thingy which actually appeared as a new thing after I had started training dogs. All the stuff about feeding your dog after you have eaten and junk like that. 
If I dare to compare with children again though, these things will come and go and it may well back be in fashion in 20 years time.
The best way is the way that works for you and your dog not what you read in a book and not what someone else does. And what works with one dog quite likely will not work with another dog.


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## Debbierobb109 (Mar 23, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Erm, where have I said that I use check chains or advise that others do. Like every dog trainer I used to - that was normal. I have not used check chains on any of my dogs for probably 35 years so actually I am quite advanced as most people still did then. I encouraged others to use half checks and kept a stock of half checks for people coming to my classes. When I was a trainer at a dog club I used check chains as did all the trainers and I showed the correct use of them.
> I no longer take classes, I had to stop years ago because of back problems.
> 
> It does not alter the fact that I still think a correctly used check chain is a useful tool. Problem is that very few are used correctly.
> ...


choke chains are vicious un-necessary torture contraptions IMO 
there is no need what so ever to use one, to even suggest that one used "correctly" is a good tool is ridiculous! and to say that you have tried one on your arm means jack sh*t ...its not our neck and you have no idea what so ever what a choker would do internally to a dog or even feel like for it.....could you imagine wearing one on your neck? id certainly not like to thats for sure! whether its being "tweaked" or not they just should not be used full stop, there are so many better training aids out there and in this day and age the choke chain should be banned! they are barbaric....and as for your previous statement of only scuffing in an extreme situation....are you for real???? why would you even do that? in what possible scenario would you need to physically abuse a dog like that? NO-BODY needs to physical punish a dog, it only relieves your own frustration and does the dog even more harm in the long run


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Debbierobb109 said:


> choke chains are vicious un-necessary torture contraptions IMO
> there is no need what so ever to use one, to even suggest that one used "correctly" is a good tool is ridiculous! and to say that you have tried one on your arm means jack sh*t ...its not our neck and you have no idea what so ever what a choker would do internally to a dog or even feel like for it.....could you imagine wearing one on your neck? id certainly not like to thats for sure! whether its being "tweaked" or not they just should not be used full stop, there are so many better training aids out there and in this day and age the choke chain should be banned! they are barbaric....and as for your previous statement of only scuffing in an extreme situation....are you for real???? why would you even do that? in what possible scenario would you need to physically abuse a dog like that? NO-BODY needs to physical punish a dog, it only relieves your own frustration and does the dog even more harm in the long run


But all that is nothing to my dogs. In between yanking them around on choke chains and scruffing them I tie them up with barbed wire collars for hours in the boiling sun with no food or water. I kick them regularly. They have to sleep outside in the snow. They are beaten at least 8 times a day and I can hardly rest for hearing their frightened screams all the time. :frown2:


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2013)

These conversations about tools, and what is okay, and what isn't, make me think of one of my favorite Suzanne Clothier quotes that applies to really any training equipment:


> A lot of so called "training" equipment is actually "restraining" equipment, and allows the handler to physically hang on to and direct the dog. My goal as an instructor is to develop the connection so that the lead/collar simply becomes a safety device, a backup net if you will for any mistakes that may be made (especially in places where there's no room for a mistake to be made safely), a nod to local leash laws, and sometimes, a way to deliver soft signals of guidance. Training is not about the equipment - it's about the connection, the relationship, the cooperation.


You can't force a dog in to cooperation. You can force compliance, yes, but you can't force cooperation.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> there are so many better training aids out there and in this day


Such as haltie types, which seem to be in common use in this day & age at least we can point to a study on those.

The research below has shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head cages are different. Once the cage is locked with the dogs head inside all dogs in the study show, physical discomfort at some degree, severe anxiety, maybe stress reactions, to all the head cage traps.

Below are the head cages used in this study, Gentle Leader, Haltie, Snoot Loop, & Response.
Study findings below:

Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars​
"The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart.

Group 1
included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.

Group 2 
included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground. 
No statistical difference was observed between dogs' reactions to the head collar types.

Based on this study, there does not appear to be an increased acceptance of one head collar type over another.
There were no long term follow ups so long term consequences are unknown."

Ref: 
Comparison of dogs' reactions to four different head collars, Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61
L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb

Halleluiah!​


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> Such as haltie types, which seem to be in common use in this day & age at least we can point to a study on those.
> 
> The research below has shown there is no evidence to support the notion dogs reactions to different halter head cages are different. Once the cage is locked with the dogs head inside all dogs in the study show, physical discomfort at some degree, severe anxiety, maybe stress reactions, to all the head cage traps.
> 
> ...


ROFLMAO...some scientists put head collars on some dogs without first conditioning them to them first.....and a scientific breakthrough!.....the dogs didn't like it  ...........lol this tells us nothing at all about head collars.....when I first put a flat collar on my dogs as pups they pawed at them.....hallelujah!

I hope these guys aren't expecting a Nobel prize!!!


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## nickmcmechan (Aug 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> These conversations about tools, and what is okay, and what isn't, make me think of one of my favorite Suzanne Clothier quotes that applies to really any training equipment:
> 
> You can't force a dog in to cooperation. You can force compliance, yes, but you can't force cooperation.


Excellent


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> These conversations about tools, and what is okay, and what isn't, make me think of one of my favorite Suzanne Clothier quotes that applies to really any training equipment:
> 
> You can't force a dog in to cooperation. You can force compliance, yes, but you can't force cooperation.


That is very true - but because most people do not have either the skills or the desire to spend the time training their dog and because pet dogs have to comply to our rules to live as members of our society then all this training equipment has appeared on the scene. Not ideal but better than most dogs being totally out of control.

The headcollar study is interesting but as some have said it is rather silly. I have no idea what happens with headcollars on dogs. I wonder if some of them touch a point that releases endorphins because a lot of dogs instantly go very very subdued when they have one on - unless they are objecting to them and getting wound up trying to remove them in which case the adrenalin would be overtaking the endorphins.

I reluctantly use one on Toffee when she is behind the carriage because she gets her front half underneath and tries to choke herself on her collar. She goes really quiet as soon as it goes on and creeps around behind me - she has never tried to get it off. I know another dog who had one put on when he got very hyper in the house and he would slink off to his bed instantly.
I did use it for a while when I took her anywhere there was likely to be people or dogs as she was such an idiot and it made her perfectly behaved. It doesnt train her but it does acclimatise her to behaving - if that makes sense. She wore it to our County Show last weekend and she did not put a foot wrong and was a pleasure to have with us whereas without it she would not have been able to come.

So I do think they have their place and if they work on your dog they take a lot of stress out of both you and the dog - but they are not really a training aid as such like a check chain is.


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## Jem121 (May 6, 2012)

My dogs have half check collars on.
But I dont actually ever clip a lead to them, they have slip leads when going to and from the car or for a run up the field. 
And when going for a long walk around the roads I use their harnesses. < does anyone else use a harness still I never see many dogs around with them on anymore normally just a collar and lead.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Jem121 said:


> My dogs have half check collars on.
> But I dont actually ever clip a lead to them, they have slip leads when going to and from the car or for a run up the field.
> And when going for a long walk around the roads I use their harnesses. < does anyone else use a harness still I never see many dogs around with them on anymore normally just a collar and lead.


I use a harness, they're quite popular round my way


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2013)

I sometimes use a harness, and see quite a few other people using them (particularly on small dogs). I see almost no half checks. I see a reasonable amount of full check (choke) chains. I see no slip leads used amongst the general public but almost everyone I see at my agility club and at shows (except me!) seems to use a slip lead.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Jem121 said:


> My dogs have half check collars on.
> But I dont actually ever clip a lead to them, they have slip leads when going to and from the car or for a run up the field.
> And when going for a long walk around the roads I use their harnesses. < does anyone else use a harness still I never see many dogs around with them on anymore normally just a collar and lead.


I am actually pleasantly surprised nearly everyday as I spot dogs I regularly see sporting new harnesses 

Less pleasantly and sadly not surprised with the amount of dogs walked very badly on head collars, oh they dont pull but they look down right miserable and squished down into obedience a lot of the time. Not all some are used correctly but so many have clearly just been bought and shoved on, even one on a long line the other day with a very bouncy young lab .

I always walked the old boy on a harness, that was more so I could hold him, he could be a strong bugger when he wanted and nearly had me over in a collar, I started out with Ninja on a collar as I figured I didn't have that issue this time round and thats just 'whats done' but have educated myself enough to realise how dangerous any neck restraint can be.


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## Jem121 (May 6, 2012)

I just never seem to see many people with harnesses on there dogs apart from a woman who has a white staff and he has a green harness lol. 
I have small dogs so pulling has never really been a problem. Out of choice I will always pick a harness over collar/choke chain. But when just popping up the field (literally 2minute walk from my house) a slip lead is so much easier to slip on and off as apposed to faffing around with harnesses


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Jem121 said:


> I just never seem to see many people with harnesses on there dogs apart from a woman who has a white staff and he has a green harness lol.
> I have small dogs so pulling has never really been a problem. Out of choice I will always pick a harness over collar/choke chain. But when just popping up the field (literally 2minute walk from my house) a slip lead is so much easier to slip on and off as apposed to faffing around with harnesses


I have a small dog and pulling really was a problem, since realised it was more to do with stress and nerves, but still much happier having her in a harness.

Someone round here must be advocating them, apart from me lol, I even saw the local dominance expert using one the other day on a lab he walks, very badly fitted but still my jaw nearly hit the floor.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2013)

Blitz said:


> That is very true - but because most people do not have either the skills or the desire to spend the time training their dog and because pet dogs have to comply to our rules to live as members of our society then all this training equipment has appeared on the scene. Not ideal but better than most dogs being totally out of control.


All the more reason to hand your average pet owner a gentle, more idiot-proof training tool. If the person is not going to put in the effort to train their dog, they're not going to put in the effort to learn how to use a tool humanely, or even research potential dangers of that tool. Hand these owners a body harness, they can do the least damage with those. Even if it's a poor fit, they're probably not going to even walk the dog enough for it to be a problem.

Here in the US we have trade-in programs at dog events where you can trade in your choke chain or prong collar for a body harness and a short lesson on how to teach a LLW. Love 'em.



Blitz said:


> I have no idea what happens with headcollars on dogs. I wonder if some of them touch a point that releases endorphins because *a lot of dogs instantly go very very subdued when they have one on* - unless they are objecting to them and getting wound up trying to remove them in which case the adrenalin would be overtaking the endorphins.


I think that subdued dog you see is not so much subdued but not wanting to move to make this weird thing hurt or pull or IDK... I liken it to a twitch on a horse. Obviously it hurts, but they kind of freeze and let you do anything to them. I don't think the "calm" you see on a head harnessed dog is calm at all - if you look at their eyes especially, that's not what I'm seeing at all.



Blitz said:


> I reluctantly use one on Toffee when she is behind the carriage because she gets her front half underneath and tries to choke herself on her collar. She goes really quiet as soon as it goes on and creeps around behind me - she has never tried to get it off. I know another dog who had one put on when he got very hyper in the house and he would slink off to his bed instantly.
> I did use it for a while when I took her anywhere there was likely to be people or dogs as she was such an idiot and it made her perfectly behaved. It doesnt train her but it does acclimatise her to behaving - if that makes sense. She wore it to our County Show last weekend and she did not put a foot wrong and was a pleasure to have with us whereas without it she would not have been able to come.
> 
> So I do think they have their place and if they work on your dog they take a lot of stress out of both you and the dog - but they are not really a training aid as such like a check chain is.


Gosh I'm sorry, but the behavior you describe of a dog slinking off to their bed or your Toffee going quiet and creeping behind you sounds really sad. I think that's a misconception about "well behaved" dogs. "Well behaved" does not mean total lack of behavior. Total lack of behavior signals something is very wrong and the dog is shutting down. I totally get why people find that sort of thing desirable, but I also think it is very sad for the dog, and frankly for the person too, to not be able to enjoy their dog unless the dog loses the spark out of their eye.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I think that subdued dog you see is not so much subdued but not wanting to move to make this weird thing hurt or pull or IDK... I liken it to a twitch on a horse. Obviously it hurts, but they kind of freeze and let you do anything to them. I don't think the "calm" you see on a head harnessed dog is calm at all - if you look at their eyes especially, that's not what I'm seeing at all.
> 
> Gosh I'm sorry, but the behavior you describe of a dog slinking off to their bed or your Toffee going quiet and creeping behind you sounds really sad. I think that's a misconception about "well behaved" dogs. "Well behaved" does not mean total lack of behavior. Total lack of behavior signals something is very wrong and the dog is shutting down. I totally get why people find that sort of thing desirable, but I also think it is very sad for the dog, and frankly for the person too, to not be able to enjoy their dog unless the dog loses the spark out of their eye.


NO, that is not how a twitch on a horse works. The effect of it releases endorphins so the horse is 'sedated'. If the horse fights it the adrenalin wins and there is no effect but on horses it works with it is a very safe and kind way to get essential jobs done to a horse that would otherwise be difficult or dangerous.

I do not know if this is how a headcollar on a dog works but I see very much the same effect.
And of course I do not think that Toffee is being well behaved because she slinks around behind me. Once we get going she is full of herself again by the way. If I left her on a collar or even a harness she would be doing herself damage so there is little choice. It is that or leave her at home and I know which she would prefer!
I only used one example of another dog but I have seen many with the same effect. You could be right and they are 'shutting down' or I could be right and it is release of endorphins or we could both be wrong and it is something else altogether. It is interesting anyway and one reason why I am not keen on headcollars being used as widely as they are.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

A slip lead would be helpful for marnie when she is going on offlead- nice and quick?

are they ok. for puppies/small dogs or do they damage the neck?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Indiandpuppy said:


> A slip lead would be helpful for marnie when she is going on offlead- nice and quick?
> 
> are they ok. for puppies/small dogs or do they damage the neck?


Nice and quick, on and off in seconds. I wouldn't use one on a dog/puppy until it has learned not to walk to heel though.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Slip leads are meant only for use on a trained dog. They are excellent for popping on and off quickly. 
However. they are really useful for Rescues and handshy dogs as well, as you can catch or control the dog without losing fingers (use the loop as a lassoo). 
It`s a tool - we have lots of them, and should use the appropriate one to each scenario.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2013)

Blitz said:


> NO, that is not how a twitch on a horse works. The effect of it releases endorphins so the horse is 'sedated'.


You're missing the part that causes the endorphins to be released - PAIN. The horse releases endorphins because it hurts. If it were such a pleasant experience, why do so many horses who are experienced with being twitched object the minute they see the twitch come out, or the minute they catch on to you trying to grab their lip?

And yes, I agree that often head halters seem to have a similar effect. Which frankly, is not something I find at all desirable in any animal I'm working with. I don't like to see the animal appear "sedated". I want them to be fully on and willingly cooperative. Anything else is just a quick fix that won't last.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2013)

Blitz said:


> NO, that is not how a twitch on a horse works. The effect of it releases endorphins so the horse is 'sedated'. If the horse fights it the adrenalin wins and there is no effect but on horses it works with it is a very safe and kind way to get essential jobs done to a horse that would otherwise be difficult or dangerous.
> 
> I do not know if this is how a headcollar on a dog works but I see very much the same effect.
> And of course I do not think that Toffee is being well behaved because she slinks around behind me. Once we get going she is full of herself again by the way. If I left her on a collar or even a harness she would be doing herself damage so there is little choice. It is that or leave her at home and I know which she would prefer!
> I only used one example of another dog but I have seen many with the same effect. You could be right and they are 'shutting down' or I could be right and it is release of endorphins or we could both be wrong and it is something else altogether. It is interesting anyway and one reason why I am not keen on headcollars being used as widely as they are.


Slinking should not be a desiarable behaviour it shows the dog is frightened of you and doesn't mean the dog is well behaved.


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