# People opinions on CM?



## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

...a well known dog 'trainer' with a well known TV show?

Just wondered what people here though about his methods. My OH has been watching religiously and putting some of the techniques to practice, which some are pretty good and work but others dont, Im of the opinion that at 3 months Wesley is too young to get the point.

Sorry if this a forum sore point. 
Everyone welcome to enlighten me


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Personally I don't like him or any idea of dominance training.

My dad keeps telling I need to use it on Sophie cause sometimes shell growl when you pick her so I just leave her alone but apparently I need to dominate her 

Told my dad if he ever ever laid a finger on he would never walk right again.


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I have never laid a hand on any of my dogs as punishment, I've never needed to, but I do feel that there's a lot of nonsense written about 'Dominance training'
Any training requires you imposing your will over the dog, whether you chose to use force or patience is the question. At the end of the day it's still a form of dominance, allbeit in my case, a benign dominance, but my dogs are still aware who's boss in our relationship.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Claire Bear said:


> ...a well known dog 'trainer' with a well known TV show?
> 
> Just wondered what people here though about his methods. My OH has been watching religiously and putting some of the techniques to practice, which some are pretty good and work but others dont, Im of the opinion that at 3 months Wesley is too young to get the point.
> 
> ...


If you do a search on this forum for him, you will soon find out what most people's opinions are.

Just to make it briefer, though: He knows nothing about dogs. He tries to treat them all the same, with no allowance for their breed traits, he is a bully, he gets their body language all wrong. He thinks a dog is "calm submissive" when it is in fact shut down with fear.

Apart from the outdated dominance rubbish that he spouts, I have come across many a trainer who believe this pack leader stuff, but still manage to understand dogs and not treat them that way.

Have a search on You Tube - you may find some enlightening videos, if they haven't taken them all off.

He thinks it is perfectly ok to drag and 11 month old growing St Bernard up a flight of slippery stairs, doesn't bother to notice that a growing giant breed should never be climbing stairs. He thinks if he puts a dog's tail up into the "happy" position, by hooking something on it to keep it up, that will make the dog happy.

If you did half the things he does in the street, someone would be calling the police and having you charged with dog abuse.

He frequently gets bitten by winding up the dog to a point where it is so scared, its only defence is to bite.

He is an idiot, quite frankly, and a danger to all dogs everywhere with his massive viewing. He has already been banned in a few countries, so I believe, and there was a petition to National Geographic to get his show off the tv, but I don't know what came of it.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

His `method` is a mix of made up `techniques` and cribs from better trainers. So why not just use the better trainers to start with? 
Buy The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. It is written by someone who is qualified and respected by the whole profession. 
CM is not.

If your OH really needs proof, go to the following websites -

BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home

The Happiest Dog: It's About time! Cesar Millan is WRONG!

Veterinary Behaviorists Take a Stand Against Cesar Millan

Cesar Millan: The Dog Whisperer? continuation page

I could of course post the footage of him abusing dogs, but tbh the edited show will make it appear that he is a saint so there`s no point. 
Ask your OH to watch with the sound off. Watch the dogs. Watch their distress and confusion. Then ask him to read the opinions of the Trainers, vets, and owners who have to deal with the fallout. 
There is a reason his shows have `DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME` writ large on them. It is because it no more teaches you to train your dog than Casualty qualifies you to do surgery.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I'm one of the few on here that thinks the guy is great.And i don't mind admitting it.*


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

The man's a fool and I would urge your OH to stop whatever he's doing now.

We do not need to dominate, over-power or 'show dogs who is boss'. They are just many manly words that come from a severe lack of knowledge and understanding.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> The man's a fool and I would urge your OH to stop whatever he's doing now.
> 
> We do not need to dominate, over-power or 'show dogs who is boss'. They are just many manly words that come from a severe lack of knowledge and understanding.
> 
> Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan


All this overpowering and showing dogs who is boss is why he keeps getting bitten. No true dog behaviourist or trainer will ever get bitten, because they know a dog's body language and know when to back off and give the animal some space.

But he does it on purpose because it is dramatic, and everybody who knows no better says: oh, he is so great, he doesn't care if he gets bitten. Isn't he brave?

He wouldn't get bitten at all if he knew what he was doing.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> All this overpowering and showing dogs who is boss is why he keeps getting bitten. No true dog behaviourist or trainer will ever get bitten, because they know a dog's body language and know when to back off and give the animal some space.
> 
> But he does it on purpose because it is dramatic, and everybody who knows no better says: oh, he is so great, he doesn't care if he gets bitten. Isn't he brave?
> 
> He wouldn't get bitten at all if he knew what he was doing.


Yes, his knowledge is...well, something else.

However, it's impossible for anyone to read dogs perfectly, IMO. An experienced behaviourist will most likely have been 'bitten' before at some point. But to put it into perspective, Dr Ian Dunbar has been bitten twice in a long career working with many dangerous dogs.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Same with anything in life really, some will like him some wont. Some dogs may respond to his methods some wont.
It is all about finding what works for you and your dog- this may mean a mixture of many different techniques, as one trainers "whole package" may not work, but snippets from several trainers may.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Same with anything in life really, some will like him some wont. Some dogs may respond to his methods some wont.
> It is all about finding what works for you and your dog- this may mean a mixture of many different techniques, as one trainers "whole package" may not work, but snippets from several trainers may.


Agreed. But we are not talking about a trainer, we are talking about a tv star who has found something he can bully and get paid a fortune for.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

I IS VERY VERY SCARED!

gone into hiding!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Agreed. But we are not talking about a trainer, we are talking about a tv star who has found something he can bully and get paid a fortune for.


I guess the problem is we do not "know" the people who's dog's he has worked with, and so can not get a first hand response from them, all we see is a TV show,- which is a shame, as you never get the whole picture, and it is frightening to think people are attempting to use his methods based solely on what they see on TV, I have not read any of his books.

I know many people who have paid fortunes for behaviourists/ dog whisperers whose methods are odd at best and simply do not work at worst.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Agreed. But we are not talking about a trainer, we are talking about a tv star who has found something he can bully and get paid a fortune for.


Don't you mean a man who would be better suited working for colgateor untrabrite


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Milan often goes to great lengths to point out that he is not a dog trainer, he rehabilitates dogs and trains people. And there is the rub, he trains people. The same can be said of Victoria Stillwell who's programme is at a very different end of the scale to his, but the one thing they have in common is that they both deal with a lot of dogs with extreme behaviours that have been caused exclusively and entirely by ignorant owners who don't have a clue what they are doing.

Fortunately, that is where the similarities end, and the two programmes are a good example of the two very different schools of thought in the dog training world. On one hand you have 'traditional' training that says that a dog is subservient to humans and must obey the commands given to it without question. This is often achieved through force, which results in fear and therefore (theoretically) compliance.

On the other hand there is a more modern approach, based upon proven scientific principles, that says that dogs are able to choose the right behaviour IF they are taught how. This is done by reinforcing the right choice with a reward, if the behaviour is reinforced enough it can then be made to happen on cue. Behaviours that are rewarded are more likely to be repeated while behaviours that elicit no response are likely to not be repeated.

What Milan does is very cleverly take a mix of the two to get results that seem miraculous to the guy in the street, but are in fact quite simple. The problem is that his explanation for these results is just downright, plain and simple wrong. He constantly talks about being calm-submissive, you can't work with a dog unless you are calm-submissive, but what is calm-submissive? If you are jumping/running/shouting at your dog what do you expect your dog to do? If you sit there calmly with them what do you think they will do then? This has sweet fa to do with exuding calm-submissive energy, it has to do with dogs inbuilt ability to read and react to body language, nothing more. He insists that if you let your dog go through the door before you then they will assume that they are the leader and so will pull you from pillar to post and expect you to follow, or could it be that a pulling dog is a pulling dog, whether they are out on a walk or going through the door? Waiting for the dog to calm so that you can go through the door first doesn't mean that you have demonstrated that you are the leader and that the dog must follow you, it just means that the dog has calmed down.

If you want to understand how dogs think then do read something like Culture Clash, if you know how they think then you can start to teach them things in a way that they can learn and understand. If you want to watch some gorgeous dogs and see what a mess some stupid people have made of them watch DW. This is a TV show designed to get ratings through controversy, treat it as such.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> unless you are calm-submissive


Not getting into this, but just a quick point.  The owners are supposed to be calm assertive, it's the dogs who are supposed to be calm submissive.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Elles said:


> Not getting into this, but just a quick point.  The owners are supposed to be calm assertive, it's the dogs who are supposed to be calm submissive.


Yes. I don't know about calm, but these owners are certainly the worst sort of submissive to sit there and let him do those things to their dogs. He would get a good swift kick up the jacksy from me.

We all know that some people are hopeless with dogs, but if they call in someone as expensive as CM, they should at least expect some knowledge to be forthcoming.

He forced the growing St Bernard up a slippery flight of stairs for no better reason than that the owners wanted the dog in the bedroom with them. Anybody who knows anything about dogs would have told them that the dog would damage its joints and not to be so damned selfish.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Well, I have been training people and dogs for over 30 years, I've never used harsh methods, it's always been reward based training for me and my customers, and in all of these years, I've been bitten twice. Once was a yellow Labrador who had recently been rescued and took me totally by surprise, and the other a white GSD who again, took time out from poo-ing, to come over and have a go! On both occasions, these dogs went from calm to anxious in a matter of seconds. I learned lessons from both of these dogs, I learned to watch their body language (although the white GSD did take us all by surprise as he was busy doing something else!).

I did watch CM, and squirmed at some of his techniques, but as it's already been said, he's not a trainer as such, he doesn't teach people how to put their dogs into sits/downs etc. What he has done though is make people exercise their dogs more, he's brought that message home to more than one family. Equally, I've seen Victoria Stillwell turn her back repeatedly while a large dog "humped" her. The woman was exhausted - and guess what, the dog still followed her around and around and around almost knocking her off balance and tried getting a grip wherever he could. I would not have allowed that to happen, that dog would have got short sharp shrift from me *(not physical)* but that dog would have learned that that behaviour will not be tolerated.

There is a balance I agree, CMs methods are wrong, but, I don't agree with Victoria Sitwell's either; the more people that take their dogs training, the less dogs that will grow up without boundaries, the happier everyone will be.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

8tansox said:


> Well, I have been training people and dogs for over 30 years, I've never used harsh methods, it's always been reward based training for me and my customers, and in all of these years, I've been bitten twice. Once was a yellow Labrador who had recently been rescued and took me totally by surprise, and the other a white GSD who again, took time out from poo-ing, to come over and have a go! On both occasions, these dogs went from calm to anxious in a matter of seconds. I learned lessons from both of these dogs, I learned to watch their body language (although the white GSD did take us all by surprise as he was busy doing something else!).
> 
> I did watch CM, and squirmed at some of his techniques, but as it's already been said, he's not a trainer as such, he doesn't teach people how to put their dogs into sits/downs etc. What he has done though is make people exercise their dogs more, he's brought that message home to more than one family. Equally, I've seen Victoria Stillwell turn her back repeatedly while a large dog "humped" her. The woman was exhausted - and guess what, the dog still followed her around and around and around almost knocking her off balance and tried getting a grip wherever he could. I would not have allowed that to happen, that dog would have got short sharp shrift from me *(not physical)* but that dog would have learned that that behaviour will not be tolerated.
> 
> There is a balance I agree, CMs methods are wrong, but, I don't agree with Victoria Sitwell's either; the more people that take their dogs training, the less dogs that will grow up without boundaries, the happier everyone will be.


I wouldn't turn my back on a dog that was trying to hump me, either, especially one as big as mine. In fact when Ferdie was going through his "hump everything that moves" stage, I used to tell people not to turn their back on him, as that was pure encouragement as far as he was concerned! It would not be my way to stop a dog from jumping up, either, but I like VS's methods generally, and she does take the time to teach the owners how to do the things she is doing, not just do them herself to show off.

She has brought the idea of positive training to the general public, and if anyone gets her methods wrong, they are not hurting anyone. The dog will not suffer and she does not need a disclaimer at the beginning of her show.

The trouble with everybody taking their dogs to training is that there are too many pack leader enthusiasts running classes, so we go round in circles.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Victoria Stillwell scares me, it's the way she dresses. People tuning in could easily think she's the erm.. dominant, assertive trainer and CM with his flashing teeth is a car salesman.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Elles said:


> Not getting into this, but just a quick point.  The owners are supposed to be calm assertive, it's the dogs who are supposed to be calm submissive.


Can you explain this statement? Do you know what it means? And more specifically, how does it apply to a dog?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Can you explain this statement? Do you know what it means? And more specifically, how does it apply to a dog?


I just thought that the discussion needs to be clear that CM says that he wants his owners to be 'assertive' not 'submissive'.

If he wanted people to be submissive he wouldn't be alpha rolling dogs etc. and doing his pack dominance type of thing, he'd be alpha rolling owners and getting their dogs to jump on them instead I expect. 

I'm not into the pack leader, dominance type of theories. My pup agrees with the cheese and raggy toy theories, so that's what I'm going for.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Elles said:


> I just thought that the discussion needs to be clear that CM says that he wants his owners to be 'assertive' not 'submissive'.
> 
> If he wanted people to be submissive he wouldn't be alpha rolling dogs etc. and doing his pack dominance type of thing, he'd be alpha rolling owners and getting their dogs to jump on them instead I expect.
> 
> I'm not into the pack leader, dominance type of theories. My pup agrees with the cheese and raggy toy theories, so that's what I'm going for.


This is the whole problem with CM, he uses terms like dominance and submissive to explain behaviours and situations that they have nothing whatsoever to do with. This leads people to the wrong conclusions and ends up causing more problems than it solves.

I am glad that you understand what he says and can see it for what it is, but the fact is that many people do not and despite constant warnings not to try his methods at home, that is exactly what they do and at the end of the day, it is the dogs that suffer.

Anyone that does buy into the whole pack leader/dominance theory should ask themselves what would happen if they did allow their dogs to sleep on the bed or go through a door before them. Do they honestly believe that dogs are capable of making a concious effort to dominate and control them? And if they could, why would they want to?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Elles said:


> I just thought that the discussion needs to be clear that CM says that he wants his owners to be 'assertive' not 'submissive'.
> 
> If he wanted people to be submissive he wouldn't be alpha rolling dogs etc. and doing his pack dominance type of thing, *he'd be alpha rolling owners *and getting their dogs to jump on them instead I expect.
> 
> I'm not into the pack leader, dominance type of theories. My pup agrees with the cheese and raggy toy theories, so that's what I'm going for.


Sounds like a good idea to me!



Jasper's Bloke said:


> This is the whole problem with CM, he uses terms like dominance and submissive to explain behaviours and situations that they have nothing whatsoever to do with. This leads people to the wrong conclusions and ends up causing more problems than it solves.
> 
> I am glad that you understand what he says and can see it for what it is, but the fact is that many people do not and despite constant warnings not to try his methods at home, that is exactly what they do and at the end of the day, it is the dogs that suffer.
> 
> Anyone that does buy into the whole pack leader/dominance theory should ask themselves what would happen if they did allow their dogs to sleep on the bed or go through a door before them. Do they honestly believe that dogs are capable of making a concious effort to dominate and control them? And if they could, why would they want to?


My dogs have slept on the bed, get up on the sofa, go through doors first when it suits me, as I can't get us all out at the same time, and I see that whilst they are blotto on the floor, they are dreaming about what they can do next to take over the world!

What a load of rubbish this stuff is. I cannot understand any sensible person not seeing that, but they just accept it. Bizarre!


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

Jasper's Bloke said:


> Milan often goes to great lengths to point out that he is not a dog trainer, he rehabilitates dogs and trains people.


I would agree that Millan is not a trainer, but only because he is so incompetent that he really can't train dogs. He is certainly not a 'rehabilitator" which by necessity requires training the dog. And his approach to emotional problems is not work on the emotional impetus but merely use punishment to suppress the behavior.

I guess Millan does train people, whoever he trains them to use force to manage their dogs. His distinction of "I train people" is also rather cynical since all dog trainers really train the people as much (if not more) than the dogs.

And as far as his explanations go, they almost in all cases wrong and pure drivel. They run the gamut from the demonstrably false to the egotistically anthropocentric to the unfalsifiably mystical.


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> What a load of rubbish this stuff is. I cannot understand any sensible person not seeing that, but they just accept it. Bizarre!


Lol, whenever I watch CM or some other 'trainer' going on about dominance in dogs I can't help thinking of Pinky and the Brain, who, for those that do not know (and why not?) are two cartoon laboratory mice with an unhealthy preoccupation with world domination.



> Pinky: Gee, Brain, what do you want to do tonight?
> Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world!





> Brain: We must prepare for tomorrow night.
> Pinky: Why? What are we going to do tomorrow night?
> Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky - try to take over the world!


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

My dog doesn't sleep on my bed. I would have to bathe her more often or wash my quilts a lot more and I'm too lazy. Plus at my age I can get a bit hot and she wouldn't like being cooked. 

I don't let her go out of the front door ahead of me, because my driveway has no gate or fence and then goes straight onto the road. Making sure she always waits for permission and follows me, makes it less likely she'll run out ahead of me into the road if one day I'm not paying attention, or someone doesn't shut the door properly I think. Not impossible, but less likely, hopefully. 

So there are reasons for it that have nothing to do with dominance theories.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Elles said:


> My dog doesn't sleep on my bed. I would have to bathe her more often or wash my quilts a lot more and I'm too lazy. Plus at my age I can get a bit hot and she wouldn't like being cooked.
> 
> I don't let her go out of the front door ahead of me, because my driveway has no gate or fence and then goes straight onto the road. Making sure she always waits for permission and follows me, makes it less likely she'll run out ahead of me into the road if one day I'm not paying attention, or someone doesn't shut the door properly I think. Not impossible, but less likely, hopefully.
> 
> So there are reasons for it that have nothing to do with dominance theories.


I made sure I always went out first for that very reason - you never know what's out there. Now, sometimes I would like them to go first because it would be easier to get us all out, but they won't! I doubt it is because they know I am the pack leader, though. They say: It's scary out there - you go first mum and make sure it's safe for us!


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## Claire Bear (Jul 19, 2011)

Corinthian said:


> And as far as his explanations go, they almost in all cases wrong and pure drivel. They run the gamut from the demonstrably false to the egotistically anthropocentric to the unfalsifiably mystical.


Your Words, I don't understand your Words! Translate?


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

Corinthian said:


> And as far as his explanations go, they almost in all cases wrong and pure drivel. They run the gamut from the demonstrably false to the egotistically anthropocentric to the unfalsifiably mystical.


Well, at least I know now who I'm voting for in the petform 'Politician'award.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Just watched a recording of CM resolving what he calls a "red zone aggressive" pit bull - and god it was frightening, most people would have had it PTS. 

Not the dogs fault - lack of socialisation and abuse before being taken on by the current owners.

But as I watched it I did wonder what on earth R+ people would have done with this case.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Just watched a recording of CM resolving what he calls a "red zone aggressive" pit bull - and god it was frightening, most people would have had it PTS.
> 
> Not the dogs fault - lack of socialisation and abuse before being taken on by the current owners.
> 
> But as I watched it I did wonder what on earth R+ people would have done with this case.


On CM's shows, a big deal is made about having the dog react then correcting them for the behaviour. But who in their right mind would think this is a good idea?

If someone was afraid of flying, would you stick them up in a plane, wait for them to have a panic attack, then punish them for it?

An aggressive dog has thresholds, and as long as you recognise where they are, you can work on keeping the dog under them. This way they are much easier to work with and can actually learn something and maintain attention. However, it is nowhere near as dramatic to watch


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## DogTrainer01 (Apr 13, 2011)

Saw this on another forum a little while ago, don't know if its been posted here before?
DW Provoking the Dog - YouTube

I personally cannot stand the man.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Although it has been shown before, I think it is worth re-posting.

CM is first and foremost a showman. He clearly has a Messaiah complex as he believes he is the saviour of all dogs--particularly what he likes to call "red-zone" dogs (sounds dramatic, doesn't it?).

I must give credit where it is due, though. He has an outstanding ability to make money from the dog world. Possibly he is unsurpassed in this, in the world. Pity about the dogs, though.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ...these owners are certainly the worst sort of submissive,
> to sit there & let him do those things to their dogs.


*definitely* a valid point. I don't let my vet, relatives, or neighbors manhandle my dog - 
why would i let a virtual stranger do so with impunity? 


newfiesmum said:


> He'd get a good swift kick up the jacksy from me.


possibly not a 'nice' sentiment, but i can empathize with it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ...sometimes I'd like them to go first because it'd be easier to get us all out,
> but they won't! I doubt it's because they know I am the pack leader, though.
> They say: *"It's scary out there - you go first, mum, & make sure it's safe for us!"*


:lol: i've had clients' dogs so scared of the Big-Bad World, i swear they'd shove their humans out with both forepaws, 
slam & bolt the door, if they could - even if they knew there were bad people with guns at the ready, *waiting* 
out there! H***, especially if they knew there were bad-guys out there, they'd sacrifice their humans 
in a heartbeat. :smilewinkgrin:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ...we are talking about a tv-star who has found something he can... get paid a fortune for.


CM/DW is currently valued [without the non-profit foundation] at approx 100-million.

i'm not grudging him the coin, simply stating a fact - quoted from today, said on 'CBS Sunday morning', 
around 10-AM, by Lesley Stahl. Here's a transcript - 
The Dog Whisperer is really the People Whisperer - CBS News


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Corinthian
> 
> And as far as his explanations go, they almost in all cases wrong and pure drivel.
> They run the gamut, from the demonstrably false to the egotistically anthropocentric
> to the unfalsifiably mystical.





Claire Bear said:


> Your Words, I don't understand your Words! Translate?


i shall essay this - tho i'm not Cory. 

'his explanations are nearly all wrong & nonsense; they vary from wrong & we can prove it, 
to self-promoting & human-centered, to stuff that can't proven true or false but it sounds impressive.'

how'd i do, Cory?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Irish Setter Gal
> 
> Just watched a recording of CM resolving what he calls a "red zone aggressive" pit bull -
> and god it was frightening, most people would have had it PTS. Not the dogs fault - lack of socialisation
> ...


loads of reward-based trainers actually specialize in the scary-aggro dogs. :001_smile: 
amazingly, they don't use prongs, chokes, or other nassty collars or tools; they don't poke, Tssst!, roll, 
pin, 'tap' with a toe in the dog's loin or rump; they don't confront, flood, or provoke; nor do they escalate.

generally, they use DS/CC & habituation to change the dog's emotional response to their trigger. 
the idea is to make the trigger at the very least tolerable, but at best make it actually a Good Thing - 
no longer alarming, arousing or angering, but unthreatening, ho-hum boring, or downright happy. 


Rottiefan said:


> On CM's shows, a big deal is made about having the dog react, then [correct] them for [their reaction]...
> But who in their right mind would think this is a good idea? If someone's afraid of flying, would you stick'em...
> in a plane, wait for them to... panic..., then punish them for it?
> 
> ...


absolutely. :thumbsup:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

From the transcript:



> Cesar Millan-
> 
> "When I die, I want to come [back] as a dog in America," Millan said. "You get to have your bed with your name on, your house with your name on. If the person die, you get to have money, you know - it's just amazing to be a dog in America."


So, this is from the end of the interview. He just spent the majority of the interview talking about how badly dogs are treated in America, saying they are spoilt and thus develop behaviour problems, which he needs to fix. So then he finishes on saying that it is amazing to be a dog in America? 

The man is a fool! :cursing:

A dog can walking in front of me anytime- if they are on a loose lead, I don't care where they are. Mountains out of mystical molehills...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> From the transcript:
> 
> So, this is from the end of the interview. He just spent the majority of the interview talking about how badly dogs are treated in America, saying they are spoilt and thus develop behaviour problems, which he needs to fix. So then he finishes on saying that it is amazing to be a dog in America?
> 
> ...


I hope if he does come back as a dog, it will be one whose owners are daft enough to pay a "trainer" just like him. In fact I think that is probably what is meant by poetic justice.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I hope if he does come back as a dog, it will be [as a dog] whose owners are daft enough
> to pay a "trainer" just like him. In fact, I think that is probably what is meant by poetic justice.


it's a wicked thought... *but - * wouldn't it serve him right if his grandson served him, reincarnated as a dog, 
in the same way that he treated the dogs in Episodes 1 thru 10 of Season One?  hoo-eee!... 
man, would he repent quickly! :smilewinkgrin:


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

CM - like him or not, he's reached an audience that is now aware that there are such things as dog behaviourists and dog trainers out there, whether they stick and follow slavishly his methods or not is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. What he has done in terms of highlighting that there can be a solution to what some trainers deem to be untrainable dogs can only be for the good of dog trainers, whatever their style, or whoever they may be.

It is ,however, unfortunate that he is the butt of a lot of the peoples righteous approach to what is or isn't the best/correct way to train dogs. Dog training has come a long way in recent years, just hark back to the Barbera Woodhouse days when she was the *only* UK tv presentation of how to train a dog - in fact she did good in that she challenged peoples opinions in that dogs *did* need training in the first place [can't argue with that] just her approach is miles from modern styles - but this is not to say that some trainers still take the same tack as her. What CM and *'others'* and I mean this to include the limited TV trainers seen in most peoples homes via the medium of tv, is show there are different ways to tackle problems - there is yet to be a tv programme on the a-z of dog training - behaviour solution is *the* entertainment zeitgeist of today, and tv is the medium of the majority - so please don't criticise people for watching tv and maybe learning that there is more to dog training than doing what 'Uncle Fred' does with his dogs.

Oh, and in the episode I referred to earlier, CM did not kick/hit/pin/abuse the dog in any way shape or form, the excitement generated by the owners presence is what triggered the dogs aggressive response to other dogs. CM showed the owners that to control this dogs behaviour they had to learn to recognise the raised excitement levels of the dog and then know how to bring about a return to calm (he showed them all this) - calm is what this dog needed to stay sane and out of the death chamber. Distraction and acclimatisation with rewards would *most definately* not have worked, which is why I posed the after thought in the first place.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> ...in the episode I referred to earlier, CM did not kick/hit/pin/abuse the dog in any way,
> shape, or form...


do U have a link? 
if not, we cannot give an informed opinion of the handling as shown.


Irish Setter Gal said:


> bold added -
> 
> *the excitement generated by the owner's presence... triggered the dog's aggro response to other dogs*.


just how do i handle my dog if, as the owner, i am not supposed to be around the dog?

if MY PRESENCE causes MY DOG to react aggressively, then the aggro should not occur if anyone else 
handles the dog; IOW if a pet-sitter, dog-walker, vet-tech, or other pet-pro handled the dog in the presence 
of other dogs, the dog should remain easygoing & relaxed. Was this shown on camera? 


Irish Setter Gal said:


> CM showed the owners that to control this dog... they had to learn to recognise the raised excitement...
> of the dog and then know how to bring about a return to calm (he showed them all this) -
> calm is what this dog needed to stay sane & out of the death chamber. Distraction & acclimatisation with rewards
> would *most definitely* not have worked, which is why I posed the after thought in the first place.


i've seen DS/CC work with dogs who had a past-history of multiple bites or fights. 
i very-much doubt that it would have been useless in this case - but SEEING the dog & the handling 
of the dog, would be very helpful. :001_smile: Any link?


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> CM - like him or not, he's reached an audience that is now aware that there are such things as dog behaviourists and dog trainers out there, whether they stick and follow slavishly his methods or not is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. What he has done in terms of highlighting that there can be a solution to what some trainers deem to be untrainable dogs can only be for the good of dog trainers, whatever their style, or whoever they may be.
> 
> It is ,however, unfortunate that he is the butt of a lot of the peoples righteous approach to what is or isn't the best/correct way to train dogs. Dog training has come a long way in recent years, just hark back to the Barbera Woodhouse days when she was the *only* UK tv presentation of how to train a dog - in fact she did good in that she challenged peoples opinions in that dogs *did* need training in the first place [can't argue with that] just her approach is miles from modern styles - but this is not to say that some trainers still take the same tack as her. What CM and *'others'* and I mean this to include the limited TV trainers seen in most peoples homes via the medium of tv, is show there are different ways to tackle problems - there is yet to be a tv programme on the a-z of dog training - behaviour solution is *the* entertainment zeitgeist of today, and tv is the medium of the majority - so please don't criticise people for watching tv and maybe learning that there is more to dog training than doing what 'Uncle Fred' does with his dogs.
> 
> Oh, and in the episode I referred to earlier, CM did not kick/hit/pin/abuse the dog in any way shape or form, the excitement generated by the owners presence is what triggered the dogs aggressive response to other dogs. CM showed the owners that to control this dogs behaviour they had to learn to recognise the raised excitement levels of the dog and then know how to bring about a return to calm (he showed them all this) - calm is what this dog needed to stay sane and out of the death chamber. Distraction and acclimatisation with rewards would *most definately* not have worked, which is why I posed the after thought in the first place.


So are you saying that as long as people learn how to train their dogs it doesn't matter how they do it? If they watch some of Milan's techniques and try them out at home with no knowledge of what they are doing, that is better than doing nothing?

Sorry, but I don't buy into the whole 'red zone' thing where there is a choice between some form of harsh corrective training or putting the dog to sleep. There is always another option and a great many dogs have been rehabilitated through positive methods and gone on to lead long and happy lives.

If the choice was yours, what would you do. If you had a terminal disease and were told that the only cure was to allow yourself to be subjected to regular courses of torture, would you do it?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> CM - like him or not, he's reached an audience that is now aware that there are such things as dog behaviourists and dog trainers out there, whether they stick and follow slavishly his methods or not is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. What he has done in terms of highlighting that there can be a solution to what some trainers deem to be untrainable dogs can only be for the good of dog trainers, whatever their style, or whoever they may be.
> 
> It is ,however, unfortunate that he is the butt of a lot of the peoples righteous approach to what is or isn't the best/correct way to train dogs. Dog training has come a long way in recent years, just hark back to the Barbera Woodhouse days when she was the *only* UK tv presentation of how to train a dog - in fact she did good in that she challenged peoples opinions in that dogs *did* need training in the first place [can't argue with that] just her approach is miles from modern styles - but this is not to say that some trainers still take the same tack as her. What CM and *'others'* and I mean this to include the limited TV trainers seen in most peoples homes via the medium of tv, is show there are different ways to tackle problems - there is yet to be a tv programme on the a-z of dog training - behaviour solution is *the* entertainment zeitgeist of today, and tv is the medium of the majority - so please don't criticise people for watching tv and maybe learning that there is more to dog training than doing what 'Uncle Fred' does with his dogs.
> 
> Oh, and in the episode I referred to earlier, CM did not kick/hit/pin/abuse the dog in any way shape or form, *the excitement generated by the owners presence is what triggered the dogs aggressive response to other dogs*. CM showed the owners that to control this dogs behaviour they had to learn to recognise the raised excitement levels of the dog and then know how to bring about a return to calm (he showed them all this) - calm is what this dog needed to stay sane and out of the death chamber. Distraction and acclimatisation with rewards would *most definately* not have worked, which is why I posed the after thought in the first place.


That was his explanation was it? I have no idea what happened because I refuse to watch the sadist, but the only way you can say that was the cause is if CM said so. Since he knows sweet FA about dogs, forgive me if I don't believe him.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I went to dog training classes for a short time years ago. Yanking the dogs around with choke chains was the norm. You were expected to buy a choke chain. One old guy who competed to the highest level with his dog (obedience) carried a lump of wood. If his collie didn't do as he was told immediately, the guy would whack him over the head with the wood, or throw it at him. The dog was then expected to fetch the lump of wood that had just been thrown at his face. The dog's heelwork was accurately cowering.

I complained, but the trainers said that he was successful competing, wasn't expected to change and it was just old style training.

Most people these days would complain about the general training ideas of the club, which were pretty similar to Barbara Woodhouse, let alone the old guy whacking his dog about. Treats were considered spoiling the dogs, so none of them would ever get treats.

CM has nothing on these folk. These dogs were not aggressive or even 'misbehaving' it was considered normal training. I didn't hear about clicker training, or positive training until many years later.

It's why I don't like to get into a discussion about CM. He's drawn his conclusions, found what works for him and been lucky enough to get a tv show that has earned him millions. I don't think he's a sadist. He may be behind the times, many may not agree with him, his theories may have been disproved, but he's not alone with them. Recently he has started to recommend clicker trainers to people and he has been bringing in treats and cheese in some of his programmes and he does stress the importance of exercise.

There is now VS on the other end of the scale. Personally I find her boring. She seems to me to take the dogs to whatever is upsetting them and shovel treats down their throats to distract them. Booooring.  I'm probably completely wrong about her, but that was the impression I got from the few of her programmes I watched. 

What about the folk on these programmes? 'My dog has been distressed for the past 6 years, help me Caesar.' What about the past 6 years?? Are you only bothered about your dog if it gets you on the tv?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

PS: I am talking about 30+ years ago, I didn't even have a lead for my dog, let alone a choke chain, he was born obedient. 

I think it's good to disprove CM's theories and point out alternatives, I just think that what he does wouldn't have been that unusual and not that long ago, so I don't believe he's a sadist or that it needs particularly to get personal. He's just the public face of pack leader/dominance theories imo.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I think much of the problem with all trainers/behaviourists is the language used. I mean to me "red zone" is used to describe a dog who is very much "above threshold" but actually they mean pretty similar things no? Its a state where by very little can be done to distract the dog from whatever stimulus is causing them to be in this state, but "red zone" sounds MUCH worse than "above threshold".


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## Starfish (Jul 26, 2011)

Is it wrong to have a bit of a girl crush on Victoria Stillwell? I might train Jenson to be naughty so she can come and sort us out


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## Jasper's Bloke (Oct 30, 2009)

Starfish said:


> Is it wrong to have a bit of a girl crush on Victoria Stillwell? I might train Jenson to be naughty so she can come and sort us out


Yes, very wrong and in so many ways. But, as long as it makes you happy and I can watch, what harm can it do?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Oo-er Missus.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Elles said:


> I went to dog training classes for a short time years ago. Yanking the dogs around with choke chains was the norm. You were expected to buy a choke chain. One old guy who competed to the highest level with his dog (obedience) carried a lump of wood. If his collie didn't do as he was told immediately, the guy would whack him over the head with the wood, or throw it at him. The dog was then expected to fetch the lump of wood that had just been thrown at his face. The dog's heelwork was accurately cowering.
> 
> I complained, but the trainers said that he was successful competing, wasn't expected to change and it was just old style training.
> 
> ...


Yes, it works for him all right - but what about the dogs? Many trainers and behaviourists will tell you how they have had to work months to get a dog over a session of either him or style of "training".

That is the difference between him and VS - her shows can be boring, because there is no drama. That is why he is so popular, because it is dramatic, whilst she takes ages to achieve a lasting result and it isn't nearly so exciting.

He brings treats sometimes, but he doesn't know what to do with them. He waits till the dog is over threshold then declares that treats don't work.

Old style training is old style training, but I never saw anyone back then who hung a dog up by its lead till it nearly passed out. I never saw anyone think that submissive gestures were excitement either.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Cesar Millan is changing. I saw a clip the other day of him desensitising with food a dog to the sound of a hoover! However, he said if this dog was a strong-minded, offensively aggressive dog (he didn't use those words...) this would be the wrong approach and he would need to make that kind of dog submit. So, he is changing, but is very much still making dangerous statements that have, and will continue to, get people into trouble. 

I just find it incredibly cheap that we have at our hands nowadays training methods that are very safe and easy to implement, but yet he still has a TV show. It's pure entertainment. If it was on bears, it wouldn't be so bad. Not everyone has a bear they can encounter day-in day-out. 

But people interact with dogs on a daily basis all around the world, and those who follow Cesar, may cause accidents and unreasonable amounts of stress and displeasure on behalf of those dogs. 

To train a dog, we always need some tool- clicker, treats, metal collar, e-collar, slip lead, lump of wood, our own hands to make physical contact. 

Using food and toys, and other rewards, is not as simple as 'stuffing food down the dog's neck'. A dog works for their reward, behaviours are taught and solidified, and the dog becomes motivated to perform more human-acceptable behaviours. If you use aversive training styles because food is not manly enough for you, then the dog is only doing a behaviour because they get to avoid those aversives. I know which methods I want to use!

Rewards can and are used to train the most difficult of cases all around the world. I don't care how 'scary' a dog looks; the reason it looks so scary is because it has been provoked to react. There will be a time where it can tolerate whatever is scaring it, and this is where rewards based methods come into their own. Cesar continually waits for a behaviour to occur, corrects the behaviour in order to bring the dog back to calm, but the dog does not learn anything more than to suppress the behaviour. They are still feeling those underlying emotions.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

To the OP I like a lot of what CM stands for. 

I don't like harsh methods. But I do believe that a dog needs leadership. 

Not all dogs will respond to the same methods. You need to be open minded and flexible. 

I think it's ridiculous that people say that he doesn't care about dogs or it's all about money. Clearly that's not true. 

He is the only person known that can successfully manage such a large pack of dogs. Many of them strong breeds. 

Although many will say he personally beats them into submission...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> To the OP I like a lot of what CM stands for.
> 
> I don't like harsh methods. But I do believe that a dog needs leadership.
> 
> ...


Clearly? It is not clear to me. I have seen on Its Me or the Dog, her introducing a husky owner to a woman with forty huskies, which she managed very well, working them for what they were bred for - sledding.

Just because he is the only person who gets himself on tv managing a large pack of dogs, does not mean he is the only one who can. Besides, we have only the producer's word for it that he manages those dogs. A two minute clip at the beginning of the show mean sweet FA.

I see a lady when I am out walking my dogs with at least fifteen border collies, all off lead, all waiting in the van for her to tell them when to come out, all following her or running alongside, all coming back when they are called. Only one or two have leads on. I wonder how he would manage with his large pack of dogs were they off lead and he was not on his roller skates.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Cesar Millan is changing. I saw a clip the other day, [he was] desensitising a dog to the sound
> of a hoover [using food]!


i won't believe it till i see it. :lol:

did he have the dog over-threshold & unable to eat? 
frantic, slavering, lunging frustratedly, distracted? or was the dog really engaged & truly operant?


Rottiefan said:


> Using food & toys, & other rewards, is not as simple as 'stuffing food down the dog's neck'.
> A dog works for their reward, behaviours are taught & solidified, and the dog becomes motivated
> to perform more human-acceptable behaviours. If you use aversive training styles because food
> is not manly enough for you, then the dog [does] a behaviour... to avoid those aversives.
> ...


i've seen truly dangerous dogs [to others] changed greatly using rewards; i've also seen terrified dogs 
[dangers to themselves] also greatly changed by rewards; they become less stressed, more confident, happier.

'correcting after the fact' truly irks me; in emergencies this may be needful, but to use it in training? 
*even when U call that training, "rehab"?* [if it's meant to change behavior it's training, of one sort 
or another: it's teaching from the ground up, or B-Mod to re-teach a habitual response to a preferable one]. 
the behavior ALREADY happened; we can't erase it. Good handling makes unwanted behavior dam*-near 
impossible; paying attention to the dog we're handling also lets us anticipate a reaction we don't expect, 
even if only by a few seconds. If we don't know the dog well, we should be much-more alert to any sign 
that something untoward is about to happen. *if the dog has a known trigger, it is unethical & IMO 
absolutely unacceptable to 'let the dog' be flooded, go over-threshold, react, & THEN TO PUNISH THE DOG.

the handler does not 'let' the dog go over-threshold; s/he SETS UP THE DOG TO FAIL. that's appalling. 
to further outrage any sense of justice by blaming the dog is truly grotesque. * 
when i see anyone do that to a dog in real-life, i have to get a firm grip on myself, because my impulse 
is to grab their collar at the nape & shake that handler till their teeth rattle, while verbally telling her or him 
just how despicable, low-life, disgusting, ignorant & sickening i find their behavior toward that dog... 
who is innocent of anything but a bad-habit, & does NOT need some slimeball putting her/him in a situation 
that predictably brings out that habitual response. :incazzato: KNOWN TRIGGERS are not to be pulled, 
any more than we'd pull the trigger on a loaded gun 'just because'.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i won't believe it till i see it. :lol:
> 
> did he have the dog over-threshold & unable to eat?
> frantic, slavering, lunging frustratedly, distracted? or was the dog really engaged & truly operant?


I found it again: Dog Whisperer Exclusive: Training a Fearful Dog - Woman&#39;s Day Magazine - YouTube

Not the best case. Didn't really see how the dog reacted before hand (other than trying to avoid it at the very beginning) and there is a lot of silly-psychobabble from Millan throughout, attempting to justify his choice to use treats to be everything other than trying to show that good things happen when the vacuum is on.

To be honest, a dog that close to the vacuum whilst its on who can still eat happily does not have a severe case of fear, IMO. It's just a little anxious. But, even still, there you have it


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> if the dog has a known trigger, it is unethical & IMO
> absolutely unacceptable to 'let the dog' be flooded, go over-threshold, react, & THEN TO PUNISH THE DOG.


Don't you think though that Victoria does that sometimes too? In the case of the dog with the kids on the slide for example. She took the dog to the kids with the slide, then tried to block it and pulled on its collar when it tried to go to them, all the time trying to shovel treats down its throat.

Sorry, but that's what it looked like to me, flooding and punishing. 

Of course the dog was in a completely unsuitable home, with a family who didn't even like him, but as a tv programme competing with CM it just looked like VS tries a few treats and maybe a halti, which doesn't work and then sends the dog away for rehoming. It didn't give a good impression and I must admit, after seeing that episode and a couple more where VS was either being jumped on, or even humped by untrained dogs, I gave up watching.

I don't think the programme gives a good account of positive training methods tbh., but that's tv for you. All about ratings and adverts, so really it should be taken for what it is. 

Do you think people would watch happy, friendly dogs who don't have problems being trained in a friendly way? I do, especially if they're puppies. Bring on the puppies. :001_tt1:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't like the way VS perpetuates the myth of hierarchy by insisting that the dog should be "at the bottom of the pack". I have also seen her advise outdated and discredited "rank reduction" practices--though I must admit that she doesn't seem to do this so often now.

IMHO at the end of the day (can you use 2 cliches together?) both CM and VS are televison personalities and not professional dog trainers: in fact VS* was an actress long before she branched into dog training.

She is, however, a much more benign influence on the dog owning public than that awful man, CM.

Edit: I have just read that VS is a member of the US Association of Pet Dog Trainers which really surprises me. How can she be a member of this reputable organisation yet promote rank reduction?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I don't like the way VS perpetuates the myth of hierarchy by insisting that the dog should be "at the bottom of the pack". I have also seen her advise outdated and discredited "rank reduction" practices--though I must admit that she doesn't seem to do this so often now.
> 
> IMHO at the end of the day (can you use 2 cliches together?) both CM and VS are televison personalities and not professional dog trainers: in fact VS was an actress long before she branched into dog training.
> 
> She is, however, a much more benign influence on the dog owning public than that awful man, CM.


Those programmes are at least 8 or 9 years old. In the US series it is completely different. In fact, ridicules the idea of being a pack leader. But even back then when she was spouting about dogs being part of your pack, her rank reducing methods were simply an eat first, don't let the dog do as he likes by blocking him or ignoring him.

I think it is very sad that the general dog owning public is relying on an actress and a grooming parlour sweeper upper for their information, when there are highly trained, proper behaviourists out there.

But they don't make for good drama.

To Elles: VS will get a dog close to his object of fear, but she will also do it gradually from a distance. I don't call that flooding, nor to I call giving him treats punishment.

Neither of these people are trainers, but at VS methods do no harm.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> To Elles: VS will get a dog close to his object of fear, but she will also do it gradually from a distance. I don't call that flooding, nor to I call giving him treats punishment.


It was probably an old programme too. I didn't mean the treat giving, I meant the pulling on his neck as being the punishment. She took him close enough that he was not easy to distract and was trying desperately to get to the slide, so had to be pulled around by his neck. To me this is flooding and punishment, though a lesser version than seen in the other programme. 



> I think it is very sad that the general dog owning public is relying on an actress and a grooming parlour sweeper upper for their information, when there are highly trained, proper behaviourists out there.


Wow, I had no idea. I thought she was a behaviourist following positive training methods, but not doing very well. I didn't know she was an actress. 

Well, I rest my case. Bring on the real trainer with the happy puppies.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Elles said:


> It was probably an old programme too. I didn't mean the treat giving, I meant the pulling on his neck as being the punishment. She took him close enough that he was not easy to distract and was trying desperately to get to the slide, so had to be pulled around by his neck. To me this is flooding and punishment, though a lesser version than seen in the other programme.
> 
> Wow, I had no idea. I thought she was a behaviourist following positive training methods, but not doing very well. I didn't know she was an actress.
> 
> Well, I rest my case. Bring on the real trainer with the happy puppies.


From what I read she was an actress who used to do dog walking in between very sparse roles, and discovered that most of the dogs she walked needed some training, so she started reading up on it. I believe she has advisors behind the scenes who actually tell her the best approach and how to go about things.

I am sure she has learned a lot over the years, but she is no way qualified or anything.

CM on the other hand, was sweeping up fur in a grooming parlour in Los Angeles and they would call on him to pin down the aggressive dogs, which he is obviously still doing.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Claire Bear said:


> Just wondered what people here though about his methods.


I'll keep it short and sweet.

Not a lot. :wink:


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Those programmes are at least 8 or 9 years old. In the US series it is completely different. In fact, ridicules the idea of being a pack leader. But even back then when she was spouting about dogs being part of your pack, her rank reducing methods were simply an eat first, don't let the dog do as he likes by blocking him or ignoring him.


I think that is an important difference between CM and VS. She was iffy at the beginning but she recognized her limitations and worked with real experts to educate herself and improve her knowledge and understanding of dogs.

Millan, 10 years after he started his compound and7 years into the show, and he is still spouting the same garbage. The man hasn't learned anything and doesn't seem interested in learning.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Corinthian said:


> I think that is an important difference between CM and VS. She was iffy at the beginning but she recognized her limitations and worked with real experts to educate herself and improve her knowledge and understanding of dogs.
> 
> Millan, 10 years after he started his compound and7 years into the show, and he is still spouting the same garbage. The man hasn't learned anything and doesn't seem interested in learning.


People who think they know it all are never interested in learning.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> ...Vic Stilwell is a member of the USA [branch of the] APDT which really surprises me.
> *How can she be a member of this reputable organisation, yet promote* rank reduction?


i'm not sure what Vic suggested that U are labeling 'rank-reduction', but i want to SPECIFICALLY address *the APDT 
of the United States: this organization does NOT limit tools, methods, or any tactics, except by stating 
that they "support dog-friendly methods" [which they define] -  the USA-apdt does NOT assess members, 
while the APDT-uk & APDT-Ireland both assess every applicant; the APDT-uk & the APDT-Ireland both have tools 
which they ban, & tactics or methods that are listed as unacceptable. *

the USA-apdt accepts anyone who applies & pays the fee; they have 3 levels of membership, PRO for those who've 
sat the written exam for certification thru the CCPDT; FULL for voting members who have not sat the test; 
ASSOC for members who are pet-owners, groomers, students, apprentices, etc. 
*unless U are arrested & convicted of cruelty or neglect, being removed or denied membership is very rare. 
i know of only one member who was ousted for tools or techniques considered unacceptable, 
he was the Florida trainer who publicly advertised & demonstrated helicoptering on his own dog, 
who had done nothing deserving of any punishment whatever.

prong-collars, choke-chains, nylon slip-collars, & other aversive tools are all ignored; they are not PROMOTED, 
but neither are they BANNED. ditto with flooding, pinning, Alpha-rolls, physical punishment, corrections 
of all sorts, provoking aggro reactions, etc; NONE are forbidden - they just are not 'promoted'. *

this lack of direction in the USA-apdt has become exceedingly divisive, & many punitive trainers or those using 
highly-aversive methods have flocked to join, *NOT* to be educated or change to more reward-based methods 
or tools, but simply for the networking opportunities & to put the logo on their website or their business window.

________________________________________________________

comparing a *USA-apdt member* --- who may be 
- highly-punitive & entirely ignorant of any learning theory, 
- 'balanced' & sat the CPDT-exam but uses aversives heavily anyway, 
- well-versed in learning theory but has not taken the $300 test, 
- highly-biased toward rewards & uses the very minimum of corrections...

to a *UK-apdt member*, who MUST be 
- conversant with learning theory & able to apply it; 
- able to use management to prevent or minimize UNdesired behaviors;
- able to use rewards to elicit & reinforce desired behaviors...

is an apples to oranges comparison; the 2 are irreconcilably different. 
i would love to see the USA-apdt tighten their requirements for full membership. 
i'd also prefer an outright ban on some tools & techniques; i think it's appalling that some members 
have learned nothing & changed nothing during their tenure, & have no intention of changing 
from primarily-aversive tools to a more reward-based method. :thumbdown:

jerking, poking, choking, & etc are outdated, ineffective, & IMO poor practice. 
that they not only persist within a supposed 'professional organization' but that the Admin turns a blind eye 
& that new members who actively promote aversive tools are welcomed with open-arms seems grotesque. 
but there it is. :nonod:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Wow! I didn't know that, LfL!

As far as "rank reduction" is concerned I have seen her in a few programmes, making the owners "eat" out of the dogs bowl, in front of the dog. I have not seen her do this lately.

I had no idea she had professionals advise her, but I have no truck with that--at least then you would expect her advice would be up to date.


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