# Jumping up at/chasing joggers and bikers



## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

Hello all, me again...

I'm having a new problem with my 13 month old Weim bitch; joggers and bikers. Back in April, she unfortunately knocked a female jogger over by jumping up at her. I was NOT walking her at this time, another family member was, so I don't know the specifics of what happened back then...just that she jumped up at someone and knocked them over (they were ok with it, thank goodness). Anyway, ever since I have been very cautious with her around joggers. Today I saw one coming and called her back. I held onto her harness, only for her to come behind me as the joggger ran past and once again she jumped up. She didn't make contact this time though. Obviously, I have to nip this in the bud. She hasn't had a chance to jump up again until now as I have been able to call her back and/or distract her, but today proved that she will gladly do it again. 

I am always on edge when walking her, namely because I'm constantly on the look out for bikers and joggers. 

Any tips? she is generally very responsive, but walks are becoming a bit of a stressful event. She means well but is so bouncy and hyper, obviously not everyone appreciates her enthusiam. I should add that provided people are not running, she generally just trots past and ignores them.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Is there a running club near you or a popular place for runners?

The whole tension of holding on to her, getting all worked up and being able to watch the runner come in from a distance only serves to wind the internal spring right up in your dog.

If you can do some training near a running club or near where runners regulalry go then you can desensitise her to the movements of joggers. Get to the spot after 30mins of walking, running around and playing so any excited energy is taken out of her to an extent and find yourself a position where YOU feel comfortable but the runners are in view. With your dog on a lead and facing you with the runners on your left or right do some basic obedience such as sit, lie down, stay - lead length etc and plenty of treats and what not as reward for not focussing on the runners.
After about 15-20mins change positions so that the runners are behind you and the dog can watch them run passed if it wants but the object is to get the attention on you again.

Next session do the same but decrease the distance between you and the place where the runners go passed by a yard or so. Start of with the runners on one side and then switch so they are running behind you and in front of the dog. Decrease the distance the next session and the next and the next until you can be at the edge of the track or path and the dog will still pay attention to you.

If the only pace you have access to is a park and the runers come in dribs and drabs then don;t wait for the runners to come into view until you do the trainign as the dog may have already started focussing on them. Start and keep training until you want to finish and then leave the park witht he dog always on a lead. That way runners (and even bikes if it is a park) slowly become background noise to the dog and aren't really that interesting anyway.

Another possible thing to do is to go running with your dog yourself if you are able so the dog learns that all that happens really is running in a straight line. Whoopydoo!! NOt as much fun as playing fetch or getting fed treats is it?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Can you get a "stooge" jogger and teach her a "leave" command maybe.

I usuallu call oscar back make him sit and stay and then treat and release but to be fair he has never chased its just where i live in Cambridge the bikes are so fast down the river i do it for his own safety :scared:


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Is there a running club near you or a popular place for runners?
> 
> The whole tension of holding on to her, getting all worked up and being able to watch the runner come in from a distance only serves to wind the internal spring right up in your dog.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this, wonderful advice and I'm going to try and work on it. I think you are right in that I need to bite the bullet and take her to areas where there is more people traffic. Because of her...um...'issues', I tend to walk her in quiet places at quiet times, but realise that this is hinding and not helping us.

It is a shame because she is generally good and so responsive in most other aspects when outdoors. I just hope we will be able to knock with jogger/biker problem on the head. Weim's certainly keep you on your toes.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

can I ask what her 'issues' are?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Actually, I am going to suggest the complete opposite - for now!

A dog that is motivated to chase, every time it chases is getting a humumgous boost of feel-good brain chemicals. The more they chase, the more it feels good. Then, the more they seek that boost - just like a drug addict.

When trying to work with dogs that chase and doing the 'exposing' thing you are fighting some very very strong brain chemicals there, and if the dog so much as gets a brief burst of adrenaline by looking at a jogger, even if they don't chase, you're already trying to compete with something much stronger than you.

Much better is to keep the dog away from ANYTHING that triggers him for a long time, at least a few weeks if not months and in the meantime train some commands that get the dog looking at you instead, focussing on you, so you have a powerful interruptor that can be used later. This is the key to solving it - _a powerful interruptor that is stronger than the initial impulse and the feelgood fix._

David Ryan's article here: (and especially his book!) is excellent:
"Stop!" How to control predatory chasing in dogs

Like it or not, your dog's reaction to joggers and bikes IS predatory... .and IS addictive.

If you work hard away from the triggers to achieve a strong interruptor, then you can start slowly re-introducing the stimulus, from afar at first, slowly working towards what you want and need.

I have tried the training as described before - going to places like that and trying to accustom the dog to seeing jogges, bikes, skateboards etc but it didn;t work and for a long time I was nonplussed. Then I got David Ryan's book and it made a lot of sense, but still did not work for my dog.

Bear in mind, my dog chased and bit the clothing of a child cycling along the pavement a year ago and we were hauled into the police station under DDA Sec 3.... how scary was that????? BUT if you don't approach *your* dog's chase instinct, and he nips a jogger - that could be *you*.

So.... for a long time I was afraid to take him out as there are skateboards & bikes right outside our front door daily.

Keeping him away from them was a good thing. It weakened his addiction. I found other ways of getting his attention (Control Unleashed - Look at That game) and we have just gone back out there into the big wide world and things are a LOT better, not perfect yet but I do have a great interruptor.

I also read up LOTS on dog body language (Calming Signals - Turid Rugaas) so I could accurately spot the very moment my dog was going into stress mode or chase mode, and pre-empt it.


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## Daggre (May 2, 2010)

My first tip would be- you have to relax for this to work! Does your dog normally jump? I understand she ignores people walking- but in the house? Or only at joggers/bikes? 

If jumping is a normal behaviour it needs to be stopped, I'm very anti jump, because it isso preventable, totally unfair on others, and could cause serious damage. Ewven if the dog is tiny that could be a pair ofnice trousers ruined :/

Anyway, I'd ask her to sit, get out a really special treat should you see a jogger/biker, and say sit. if she sits whilst theyrun past, praise and treat. You may want a friend to do the acting so that if she doens't do it first off you can keep going until she understands.

Once she readily sits when you see the joggers, I would then just carry on, instead ofasking for the sit...praise if she walks calmly, if she gets excited, once again ask for the sit. She should pick up that she just needs to remain calm.

Don't get stressed though, if you see somebody coming, shut your eyes and count to three or something, it gives you time to think without exciting the dog.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Daggre said:


> Anyway, I'd ask her to sit, get out a really special treat should you see a jogger/biker, and say sit. if she sits whilst theyrun past, praise and treat. You may want a friend to do the acting so that if she doens't do it first off you can keep going until she understands.
> 
> Once she readily sits when you see the joggers, I would then just carry on, instead ofasking for the sit...praise if she walks calmly, if she gets excited, once again ask for the sit. She should pick up that she just needs to remain calm.


Take it from me, that does not always work. Above I have outlined how to approach it from the base level.... If I had read my post above written by someone else a couple of years ago, I would not have been in the police station. I approached it just as you suggested, but in fact seeing the chase-objects whizzing around all over the place heightened his anxiety and frustration levels, which did nothing to help when one came whizzing past on an off-moment (kid on bike on pavement) which landed us in deeeeeeep deeeeep trouble.

Hence my alternative approach now... which IS working.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

\


MerlinsMum said:


> Actually, I am going to suggest the complete opposite - for now!
> 
> A dog that is motivated to chase, every time it chases is getting a humumgous boost of feel-good brain chemicals. The more they chase, the more it feels good. Then, the more they seek that boost - just like a drug addict.
> 
> ...


Interesting, thank you. What interupptor do you use? and what happened with the police if you don't mind me asking?


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

nfp20 said:


> can I ask what her 'issues' are?


Pulling on the lead, chasing cats, biting the cats (playfully - but of course the cats don't like it), barking, jumping up in exitement, being rough in play with other dogs, stealing food, mouthing sometimes, and of course the jumping at and chasing joggers/bikers.

Blimey, I make her sound awful, but she is a lovely really.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

WeimyLady said:


> Interesting, thank you. What interupptor do you use? and what happened with the police if you don't mind me asking?


OK with the police, the child whose jeans were torn went home told his dad but not before seeing where I went - I was on my way to a friends house. Pilce did door to door asking who had an "alsatian" locally and someone said ... Me (although his is no more an alsatian than he is a poodle). I was called into give statement in the cop shop and charged and warned under DDA sec3 "out of control dog in public place". Was read my rights, advised to get a solicitor.

I was able to give a coherent statement how the child was cycling fast along a narrow pavement, came up from behind, startled me and the dog with less than a foot of space between us, I felt him lunge but did not see him bite anything (true). For all I knew the kid might have run over his tail. End of the day, kid should not have been cycling on pavement and should have shown consideration to other pavement users.

Took a few weeks for reply, said they were dropping the charges but might take it up again if any witnesses came forward or if dog was reported again for anything similar.... = Black Mark!

My interruptor has had to be worked on for a long time - there is no quick fix. He has been clickertrained from a small puppy, and eventually I found the Look At That game from Control Unleashed, which encourages the dog (if first calm) to look at any potential triggers, then is clicked & rewarded for looking - the click is enough to interrupt. It needs learning and groundwork.... but it does work if you have a clicker trained dog. I can now tell him to _look_ at skateboards, then clicked for that and his head whips right round for his treat now.... whereas before he would get tense and ready to chase. Before, the mere sight of a skateboard, even being carried by someone, made him start barking and lunging. We have a way to go, but so far it is great.

Edited to add: *He was on lead at the time this happened.*
It has made me aware how anything like this could land a decent dog owner in trouble.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2010)

The chasing joggers/bikers is an easy one! My youngster decided she wanted to be a type chaser as around four/five months of age! she would bark like mad and run backwards and forwards on the lead trying to grab them. We were at the coast at the time - Outskirts of Chapel St leonards as it happens where there are lots of narrow but busy lanes so this practise could have been potentially dangerous.

You say your girl is food orinated, dogs that are driven by food are 'easier' then most.

If you can go to an area where there are bikes or jogger, maybe a park! When you see a jogger coming towards you make her sit and hold a tip bit in front of her nose, don't let her have it, but hold it firmly, her attention will be drawn to the treat and she will be trying to get it out of you hand, As the jogger approachesI say leave, leave, leave and at the same time gently release the treat so that she can get some of it but not all of it, when the jogger has passed praise her! Took me about two days to cure her entirely of chasing tyres.

Don't know if this is the right way but it certainly worked for us.
DT


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Two of mine were chasers. Dillon wanted to play but kes, due to his late start in the outside world, meant the real thing with aggressive barking and a right carry on. The triggers were joggers, cyclists, horses and even holders for some bizarre reason.
Any way the moors where I regularly go are right next to a golf club, there are cycle tracks, bridlepaths, loads of joggers and everything else that holds excitement like paraglyders and kite fliers. The local running club starts next to the moors too which was another bonus.
Every night and weekend I spent on that moors training the dogs starting a distance away and working closer to the action and I now have three (gained another) dogs who totally trustworthy around any of the above. I went running and cycling with them which may have helped but over my dead body will I have a round of golf 

There is no reason to not explore any method of training as long as you are comfortable doing it and have confidence that you will succeed


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Why is jumping at the jogger, being regarded by some the same as "Predeatory Chasing Behaviour" in this thread?

As a dog lover who ran a lot as a young man late 70's early 80's, I was on the other side of this many times; mostly I'd only really get worried when Dog Owners had 2 out of control dogs, one who'ld chase behind, the other sent off to head me off. It is not fun, being hunted by excited dogs barking away. At time, most dog owners I am afraid, would actually shout at me, when I stopped and turned to face the chasing dog and then shout "No! Get away!" in a non prey-like manner, after the dog showed intent on getting in close. Every time I'd be shouted at, and would then have to demand that the owner recalled their dogs and got them under control; with the poor dogs highly excited and confused by an apparently aggressive encounter. Very unpleasant. I'm afraid Runners, do not want to spend 5-10 minutes pretending to be a tree, due to out of control dogs, the whole endurance training depends on sustained effort so this recovery period wrecks the whole point of the run.

That said. As a regular runner and dog walker, it was obvious to me that approaching a dog at speed, might cause an incident, so simply I would try to give the dog some space and be less exciting whilst approaching and passing. Last thing I wanted was a leg injury, to spoil my season.

Could you move the dog away to side, have it sit and calm it, so all the drama surrounding occasional joggers/cyclists is minimised? Then try to reward the dog, as suggested by previous and being closer to the action, so these passers by are perceived as a good thing.



WeimyLady said:


> Pulling on the lead, chasing cats, biting the cats (playfully - but of course the cats don't like it), barking, jumping up in exitement, being rough in play with other dogs, stealing food, mouthing sometimes, and of course the jumping at and chasing joggers/bikers


This sounds like about 90% of the dogs that are featured on the TV progs. It shouldn't be too hard to find which of the usual solutions work.

Taking a Border Collie pup out to park, I am scanning around constantly for Joggers & Cyclists, as unfortunately a cute pup tends to get rewarded with a jogger stopping and making a fuss. It naturally associates running people with play so is drawn to them and yes some could kick in the prey-drive. I am trying to nip it in the bud, but be relaxed about it and treat passing "joggers & cyclists" as boring.

Feeling tense about it, and holding lead tight probably winds the dog up, relaxing and being fun with yr dog, whilst you're calming it might be better, whilst still having the control of the attached leash.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Why is jumping at the jogger, being regarded by some the same as "Predatory Chasing Behaviour" in this thread?


Because it is. Do you have another explanation?
BC's and other breeds that chase, react to movement and the lightning instinct is to chase then to jump up (at the sheep's neck or the cow's side) to turn it and move it.

I did not fully understand my dog's probem with skateboards until I once met a man in the park with his daughter on a skateboard. My dog was muzzled and on a longline at the time (coincidentally we were doing some work around the skateboard park to desensitise him, which wasn't working).

Dog barked, chased, father told daughter to get off skateboard then pushed it with his foot. Dog chased skateboard and started nipping its 'heels' [wheels]. What more proof is there that this chasing behaviour is prey-driven?

A Border Collie's instinct to chase is the prey chasing instinct. It has been modified though, to not include the eventual kill, but they will still chase and nip to 'turn' and control their 'prey' - whether sheep, cow, skateboard or jogger.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

In the example of your dog with skateboard you clearly have both chasing, and the prey drive engaged.

Surely dogs "Jump Up" for other reasons without chase or prey drive being engaged. Some dogs would react as I ran past, but without pulling to chase. 

Would you call that Predatory Chase behaviour to, despite no chasing?

From my point of view, it was pretty obvious when the dogs were in "hunting" mode, even if their doting owners were oblivioius to it.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Possible simple technique to try for this, shown on TV show by Victoria Stillwell.

The arousal of dog on approach was limitted by simply turning back, then turning once more to go in original direction, so that the dog passes as it would have done, but only has a few seconds to take in it's "target" and not long enough to wind itself up.

When it stays calm, it was rewarded, and very soon this positive technique had improved both handler confidence and the dog's behaviour, so both became calmer and less stressed.


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