# Is this cat being overbred? How many litters for one queen?



## RaggieRags (Jan 31, 2019)

Hello,

I have posted on this site before, general queries about breeding etc. I have kept ragdolls for many years (I am not a breeder, but I might look to buy active ragdolls in the future as they are my favourite breed). I am in contact with a few breeders now and own 3 neutered ragdolls currently. 

I am wondering, how many litters is generally recommended per queen? I have been looking at some active ragdolls for sale, and the queens seem to be 5-6 litters before being spayed. Is this correct information or should I be concerned that the queens in question are being overbred? It seems a lot to me, but the GCCF breeder in question says that this is the norm for a queen over a few years. I wouldn't want to support a breeder if this is the case, and I would rather find someone ethical if I am considering buying active kittens to breed.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

It very much depends on the girl. Some girls can only manage two or three litters, retiring at 3-4. Some girls can keep going, although I would never mate a girl older than 6 personally. Some breeds do better continuing a little longer if they're slow to mature, whereas other breeds that are quick to mature can be retired earlier. A girl should have no more than 3 litters in 2 years, ideally it should be one litter per year, but again depends on how they call and kitten.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm not sure how one litter a year ever became the ideal for newer breeders, it's completely unrealistic and can be dangerous.
Cats are made to be bred or neutered.

So long as the breeder isn't breaking their associations rules on frequency and overall litters.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

If you chip with suprelorin or inject with depo, you can safely prevent oestrus


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> If you chip with suprelorin or inject with depo, you can safely prevent oestrus


There are many cats who've never been able to breed again after such products were used, it is a risk that needs careful consideration.

Melatonin is safer, and lasts a shorter amount of time but again, it's not for everyone.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

You also need to consider breed variation as well, as some are much more frequent callers than others. Comparing an oriental and a Persian would be ridiculous for example.


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## RaggieRags (Jan 31, 2019)

I have a lot to learn, thank you!

I just assumed that 3 or 4 litters per cat would be the maximum, but it seems like 5 or 6 per cat is completely fine and normal as long as the queen is healthy and a good age?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

RaggieRags said:


> I have a lot to learn, thank you!
> 
> I just assumed that 3 or 4 litters per cat would be the maximum, but it seems like 5 or 6 per cat is completely fine and normal as long as the queen is healthy and a good age?


Provided she copes with it, 5-6 is fine.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If you are considering buying an active kitten to breed there is a lot more than how many litters the mother has had. Personally among other things I'd suggest a kitten from an older girl who has a good breeding record - she has got pregnant easily, stayed pregnant, not had problems delivering, and been a good mother. There are no guarantees, but a kitten from a cat which has struggled with all the above doesn't strike me as the right first girl. She also needs to be from someone you can be friends with, and who is willing to keep answering your questions maybe for years (there is always something new), and who isn't offended if you ask other people as well. I'd also advise against buying from a gossip. This is all alongside the girl's pedigree, availability of suitable studs where you are, and if you can find a vet who will neuter your kittens before they leave. This is the only way to be 100% sure none of your kittens ever end up in BYB breeding situations.

I would also strongly suggest you do some showing before breeding, and if you've not done it, fostering cats with kittens will give you a feel for that that involves.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I once knew a breeder who kittened one of her girls until she was 11, and another until she was 9... Not something I would personally do, but her cats were the picture of health, were well rested in between litters, and shelled them like peas with very little reduction in body condition afterwards.

Then you have the other extreme who say that if your girl doesn't give you a keeper kitten within 2 litters, she's no good for breeding and should be spayed and moved on.

Then others who say that as soon as you get your keeper kitten, mum is immediately spayed and the kitten is bred from, even if this is in the first litter, or the very last.

Each have their fall backs.

In the first, the queen could have age related complications which are not seen until too late. She could develop mammary cancer through cycling for so many years unsprayed.

In the second and third, what if you are settling for second best? What if, in their next litter, or with a different stud, they would have produced an even more stunning cat? What if that keeper kitten can't be bred from and thus you lose your whole line? Or what if there was a health problem affecting the line such as HCM that you would have picked up had mum stayed with you?

In short, it's different strokes for different folks, and whatever works for you and the cats is the answer, as long as the cats are well treated and adequately cared for throughout.


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

Sorry to butt in (again) 

The "3 litters in 2 years" thing - is that an actual rule? I couldn't find it anywhere in writing (and I was looking!).

The only thing I ever found was under GCCF Welfare section where they say that they can spot overbreeding / when litters are too close to one another, but from what I've heard they'd still register anyway.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

lenanowa said:


> Sorry to butt in (again)
> 
> The "3 litters in 2 years" thing - is that an actual rule? I couldn't find it anywhere in writing (and I was looking!).
> 
> The only thing I ever found was under GCCF Welfare section where they say that they can spot overbreeding / when litters are too close to one another, but from what I've heard they'd still register anyway.


In GCCF it's a recommendation, in FIFe it's a rule. TICA don't care.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I wouldn't say TICA don't care, they do have a guideline but also expect breeders to use their own best judgement.



lenanowa said:


> The only thing I ever found was under GCCF Welfare section where they say that they can spot overbreeding / when litters are too close to one another


Again this is subjective, you may mate a girl quicker who's had a singleton or small litter she didn't raise and has been calling constantly since 2 days after birthing. 
Or do a back to back litter for another reason before giving a break the next time


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

@spotty cats I suspect they'd look at it differently if it was a rare occurrence and good reasoning behind it, vs someone who just breeds uncontrollably. Whether they'd actually do anything about it or investigate, I don't know. It might be just wishful thinking.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

If it's not a rule, I doubt anything could be done.


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