# Deal ,or no Deal



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Place your bets now


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

What are you talking about?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

Ball's in their court.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

We are not playing a ball game


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

Satori said:


> Ball's in their court.


Now I get it. I thought she might have been talking about the TV show!


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

No deal and let's just leave.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> We are not playing a ball game


Might just as well be


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jonescat said:


> We are not playing a ball game


Anyone for tennis ?


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

kimthecat said:


> Anyone for tennis ?


Do I get to see Maria Sharapova?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I believe the ultra hard right wingers are going to drag us over that cliff with no deal.

Here's how we've found ourselves in this sorry state - explained clearly & concisely by Mike Galsworthy.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I believe the ultra hard right wingers are going to drag us over that cliff with no deal.
> 
> Here's how we've found ourselves in this sorry state - explained clearly & concisely by Mike Galsworthy.


Ive always fancied bungee jumping perhaps its time I stocked up on elastic :Bookworm


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Who's the host, Noel Edmonds or that badly dressed up sack of sh1t, Boris 'Blobby' Johnson?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Place your bets now


Do you know what the odds are at the bookies at all?

Would be interesting to know the odds for crashing out with no deal are and for getting a deal are.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

They will all frighten themselves soon and cobble some sort of hurried deal together


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Probably a deal now that Mrs May has found her backbone and started plans for no deal. This will come as a bit of a wake up call to Mr Juncker and his cronies who have so far shown no desire to negotiate, no doubt under some disillusion they held all the cards.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Do you know what the odds are at the bookies at all?
> 
> Would be interesting to know the odds for crashing out with no deal are and for getting a deal are.


Not seen any odds mate, that said of we walk I to a bookies today and ask to place a bet on a,hard brexit I guess they would take it.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Probably a deal now that Mrs May has found her backbone and started plans for no deal. This will come as a bit of a wake up call to Mr Juncker and his cronies who have so far shown no desire to negotiate, no doubt under some disillusion they held all the cards.





rona said:


> They will all frighten themselves soon and cobble some sort of hurried deal together


I think you are probably right.
Its all about who can puff their chest out the most isn't it just.

As you say rona TM may have found her spine, personally I think she should have put the ball in their court after this little speech

consequences of leaving the single market and it hasn't been explained to the British people. We intend to teach people… what leaving the single market means,"

- Michel Barnier, EU Brexit negotiator

If that isnt a threat I don't know what is


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

The EU are so terrified of other countries (of the ones that pay money in that is) that they will make our leaving as hard and as expensive as possible


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Maybe they should all listen to this interesting speech made by a German MEP.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Honeys mum said:


> Maybe they should all listen to this interesting speech made by a German MEP.


Shame he's not british he would make a cracking pm


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> Ive always fancied bungee jumping perhaps its time I stocked up on elastic :Bookworm


:Hilarious



Zaros said:


> Who's the host, Noel Edmonds or that badly dressed up sack of sh1t, Boris 'Blobby' Johnson?


:Hilarious


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> They will all frighten themselves soon and cobble some sort of hurried deal together


They don't have any plan to keep us in the EU. The hard right want us out. Its going to be a disaster on every level - except for the 'disaster capitalists' of course.

Just take our NHS - according to academics Brexit will be 'potentially catastrophic'. Have you not seen the new study by the Lancet? https://www.theguardian.com/politic...y-form-poses-major-risks-to-nhs-academics-say


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

I doubt that Big Business will let them get away with no deal. They stand to lose too much that way.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

The lastest thoughts on brexit deal from the Taxi Driver videos.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

They have 27 balls....

The winners are Russia, China, Far East....
USA....
While UK and EU are trying to undercut each other.
Remember though UK started that deadly game. .

Just coming from business meeting...
Worrying....
International banks do not like Brexit too much....No deal they say and take business elsewhere in EU.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> International banks do not like Brexit too much....No deal they say and take business elsewhere in EU.


I thought you told us they were going to do that anyway?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

rona said:


> I thought you told us they were going to do that anyway?


If we stayed in single market then there would be no need?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> If we stayed in single market then there would be no need?


Too late for hoping we will stay in the single market as TM, DD and PH have made it clear we are leaving the single market.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

stockwellcat. said:


> Do you know what the odds are at the bookies at all?


I wish I'd put money on Brexit; I was set to but everyone talked me out of it!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I wish I'd put money on Brexit; I was set to but everyone talked me out of it!


What were the odds?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

You've gotta laugh or you'd cry:Hilarious


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Looks like we're going to lose a lot more than our NHS. And for what gain??

*Sam Coates Times*‏Verified [email protected]*SamCoatesTimes* 8h8 hours ago


Treasury believes no deal cd mean £60bn drop in tax revenue a year = austerity on massive scale.
Do "no deal" supporters hv their own figure


*Jeremy Cliffe*‏Verified [email protected]*JeremyCliffe* 2h2 hours ago


Jeremy Cliffe Retweeted Sam Coates Times

In context: a "no deal" Brexit could cost the state more than the schools, policing, fire service and counter-terrorism budgets combined.

No wonder this rotten government are refusing to publish the impact studies!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Where did the EU thread go? Been away for two weeks and it's vanished, I use it to check that PF is running on the same political rails as always.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

There will be a deal of some sort.

If there is not, what happens on Brexit day on the Ireland / N Ireland border? What happens to UK citizens living in the EU and EU citizens in the UK?

May's government must have answers to those questions, and plenty of others, before they can conclude that 'walking away' is even possible, let alone responsible.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> There will be a deal of some sort.
> 
> If there is not, what happens on Brexit day on the Ireland / N Ireland border? What happens to UK citizens living in the EU and EU citizens in the UK?
> 
> May's government must have answers to those questions, and plenty of others, before they can conclude that 'walking away' is even possible, let alone responsible.


I don't think there will Arnie, the hard right are running this show & they intend to drag us all over the cliff. Disaster capitalism strikes again.

Look at this thread by Steve Peers.

1 Let's talk about the dishonest and hypocritical campaign for "no deal" Brexit - starting with this grotesque lie.











2 The UK doesn't trade with the non-EU world on WTO terms. First of all, the EU has a number of free trade agreements. Map from WTO site.











3 Here's those deals in list form. Info from the WTO site here: http://rtais.wto.org/UI/PublicMaintainRTAHome.aspx…











4 Where the EU doesn't have an FTA it has other trade deals in force, as @*OliverNorgrove* discussed here:
5 One example: some EU trade deals protect the trade name of a major Scottish export, such as this deal with Canada before the new FTA.










 6 Link to that EU/Canada treaty on wine and spirits here: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2004.035.01.0003.01.ENG…


7 Then there's the sheer hypocrisy of the "WTO only" argument. Remember "The EU won't let us do trade deals with the rest of the world"?

8 This argument presupposes that FTAs are a great thing. So how can its advocates also claim we need no FTA with our largest trade partner?
9 Remember "the EU is a protectionist racket?". An exaggerated claim. But the people who make it also say we shouldn't have an FTA with EU?

10 Why shouldn't we aim to reduce those trade barriers as far as possible by signing an FTA with - I repeat - our biggest trading partner?

11 Is there a democratic mandate for "no deal"? Hell no. Here's what Vote Leave promised: staying part of a European free trade zone.











12 Link to Vote leave site here http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
13 Remember "people knew they were voting to leave the single market". Maybe. But they were sure as hell told they'd have free trade with EU

14 Imagine you're a factory worker in the North of England or the Midlands, attracted by Leave arguments but worried about your job.

15 The Leave side reassures you the EU signs lots of FTAs. True, although FTAs aren't the same as single market participation.


16 But now your vote is interpreted as a vote for no FTA at all. If WTO terms are so great, why'd they promise an FTA to referendum voters?
17 Don't blame Leave voters, blame Leave liars. The sight of *Rees-Mogg, IDS* etc treating working class voters with contempt makes me seethe.
18 I'm the son of a factory worker. Most of my family have been laid off at some point. *Rees-Mogg* will never know or care what that's like

19 What about "economic forecasts get it wrong" and "the forecasters are biased"? Let's turn those arguments around, shall we?


20 Mervyn King, hard Brexit pinup, admits screwing up over the financial crisis, causing God knows how much damage: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-admits-BoE-failed-over-financial-crisis.html
21 Patrick Minford, WTO only dude, backed the poll tax and wrongly forecast the minimum wage would cost many jobs: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2002/mar/28/politics.economicpolicy

22 What's that phrase again? It's on the tip of my tongue.
 Oh yes. "Wrong then - and wrong now"
23 What about forecaster bias? Here's the Legatum Institute, the WTO only fans with their tentacles throughout govt: http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86556…


24 *Their specialty* - *"disaster capitalism*", *including health care*. What could possibly attract them to damaging the UK economy?












25 I don't like Brexit, but I engage constructively for the sake of damage control. But "no deal" nonsense is another kettle of fish

26 If anyone tells me to "get behind no deal Brexit", my answer is, inspired by May's conference speech: 
uck off and die

*ends


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Looks like we're going to lose a lot more than our NHS. And for what gain??
> 
> *Sam Coates Times*‏Verified [email protected]*SamCoatesTimes* 8h8 hours ago
> 
> ...


Did you read what Roger Bootle said on a hard brexit noush?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

DT said:


> Did you read what Roger Bootle said on a hard brexit noush?


You seem to forget the remainers don't read about a positive Brexit. Why would they it would skew their blinkered view.

Add to that the EU actually agreeing it's time to accelerate negotiations and it's all looking positive at the moment.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Add to that the EU actually agreeing it's time to accelerate negotiations and it's all looking positive at the moment.


So have they actually agreed anything yet, you know like the exit bill, citizen rights or the NI border. You know the three things which are only the start. They can accelerate negotiations but that isn't the same as accelerating progress is it.

Remainers don't read about a positive Brexit as leavers cannot provide any factual reasoning showing it is.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> Did you read what Roger Bootle said on a hard brexit noush?


I've seen enough lol. And his euro myths were firmly debunked. What he says is just a rehash of Minfords discredited nonsense. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/...tent-with-basic-facts-of-international-trade/ Bootle is in a tiny minority of economists Sue - he's completely at odds with the vast majority.
He was even forced to disown comments of his own consultancy team who warned brexit could trigger a full scale capital flight from the UK.

Is our NHS really worth the sacrificing for brexit?

As Professor Brian Cox says - we can't afford brexit Sue.

*







Brian Cox*‏Verified [email protected]*ProfBrianCox*


_Buried away on business pages of Telegraph, but if accurate it seems to say we can't afford brexit, _

_and great damage has already been don_e.
The @*Telegraph* on the £490bn hole in Britain's finances.
Nearly HALF A TRILLION POUNDS. If this is anything like as bad as it looks,
it's catastrophic for #*Brexit*


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> So have they actually agreed anything yet, you know like the exit bill, citizen rights or the NI border. You know the three things which are only the start. They can accelerate negotiations but that isn't the same as accelerating progress is it.
> 
> Remainers don't read about a positive Brexit as leavers cannot provide any factual reasoning showing it is.


Pretty sure nothing has been agreed yet, never said it had. Why have you heard different?

I think I'll step out of this as anything positive or pro-Brexit is just dismissed with a childish "lol" or similar. You believe your "experts" and just ignore the pro Brexit and you'll be so better informed that way. I'll listen to both and continue to be pro Brexit until someone can show how the EU is changing for the better rather than wishing to impose tighter controls on its members.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> You believe your "experts" and just ignore the pro Brexit and you'll be so better informed that way.


Strange, those against brexit frequently show and provide links etc to experts who explain why the minority of pro brexit experts are wrong, providing both information and explanations. Different to simply ignoring what you do not like. Then again Brexit and factual information seem to be mutually exclusive.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> Pretty sure nothing has been agreed yet, never said it had. Why have you heard different?
> 
> I think I'll step out of this as anything positive or pro-Brexit is just dismissed with a childish "lol" or similar. You believe your "experts" and just ignore the pro Brexit and you'll be so better informed that way. I'll listen to both and continue to be pro Brexit until someone can show how the EU is changing for the better rather than wishing to impose tighter controls on its members.


Even major architect of Vote Leave, Dominic Cummings, admits now its a disaster.

As does Vote Leave staffer Oliver Norgrove: _So the Treasury is supposedly planning for a no deal Brexit. As a Leaver, this is terrifying. The WTO option is, bluntly, suicide_

However Dr Pepper...


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> Did you read what Roger Bootle said on a hard brexit noush?





Dr Pepper said:


> You seem to forget the remainers don't read about a positive Brexit. Why would they it would skew their blinkered view.


I know it wasn't addressed to me, but I took the generalisation about what remainers do as an invitation to comment. So yes, I have read what Bootle said recently, in the same way that I sometimes read what climate change deniers say from time to time, despite being in an infinitesimal minority amongst other informed commentators. My quotes are via the Express.

"The overwhelming bulk of UK/EU trade would continue post-exit, even without a deal."​
Yes, it would. It would cost more, but it would continue. It would lessen, because of course increasing price leads to decreasing demand.

Mr Bootle said once Britain is outside the bloc, we would be able to control our own trade policy "with the objective of moving towards free trade, which would cause the price of our imports to fall, especially for food".​
Yes we would. But 'the objective of moving towards free trade' is not exactly a reassuring prediction. Political and economic 'objectives' are not always met, 'moving towards' doesn't equate to reaching, and 'free trade' is very rarely free trade.

The price of imports would only fall if the 'free trade' agreement allowed them to do so, which is by no means certain. When imports are cheaper and trade is free, we substitute our purchase of home produced goods in favour of the cheaper imports. So home industries suffer, and, under completely free trade, fail altogether. And that's why free trade deals are rarely free, because governments want to protect jobs. Or votes.

Mr Bootle said securing a free trade agreement with the EU was never the aim of Brexit.​
Really? Okay. First I've heard of that. I thought we were looking for 'the best deal possible'.

"The EU is appallingly bad at doing trade deals - it has 28 member countries which all have to agree trade deals".​
'Appallingly bad' is an objective assessment, but I wouldn't argue that it would be easier for 1-1 deals than 1-28.

However, the main point is that the EU, and therefore the UK, currently has c. 50 'free trade deals'. *When we leave, we will have none.* We may replace them with something as good, though economic common sense suggests otherwise, but it will take time.

How Bootle thinks that increasing trading costs with our main trading partner, and with at least 50 other nations _*overnight*_ will not be immediately bad for the country, I have absolutely no idea. Perhaps you can point me at his explanation?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I don't think there will Arnie, the hard right are running this show & they intend to drag us all over the cliff. Disaster capitalism strikes again.


Perhaps I should have said a _partial_ deal of some sort. I really don't believe that even this government would sacrifice the progress made in Ireland in the past 20 years on the altar of Brexiteer europhobia.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Just get on with it and have done!!!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Just get on with it and have done!!!!


We wish hutch, we wish!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Just get on with it and have done!!!!


Have to wonder why we don't. Have to wonder why our government is continuing with the process and the negotiations. If it would all be so wonderful just telling the EU to p*ss off why aren't we doing just that.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

havoc said:


> Have to wonder why we don't. Have to wonder why our government is continuing with the process and the negotiations. If it would all be so wonderful just telling the EU to p*ss off *why aren't we doing just that*.


Because a lot of people would suffer?

Not the sort of thing this government normally worries about, but maybe just this once ...


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Because a lot of people would suffer?

Come on @Arnie83 you can't believe that? :Hilarious

Because specific people's bank accounts will suffer maybe.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> Because specific people's bank accounts will suffer maybe.


I like specifics - so who exactly and why?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> I like specifics - so who exactly and why?


I don't know. I have no idea why they're delaying Brexit. 

I just guess it's a couple of buddies who have something to do with the Eu and don't want to leave, rather than because they think poor people will suffer. Especially as there's no proof they will. 

Anyway I had enough last time. So, I'm out. :Stop


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> I don't know. I have no idea why they're delaying Brexit.


Neither do I considering it will all be so wonderful once it happens. What government would delay all those immediate benefits to our country - and why?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> I don't know. I have no idea why they're delaying Brexit.
> 
> I just guess it's a couple of buddies who have something to do with the Eu and don't want to leave, rather than because they think poor people will suffer. *Especially as there's no proof they will*.
> 
> Anyway I had enough last time. So, I'm out. :Stop


Can you detail any possible scenario at all where they won't?

I don't ask for proof, just any, even half-reasonable, chain of events whereby we leave the EU without a deal, and those who are already poor, maybe on frozen benefits, will not suffer?

Same question to anyone.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> Because a lot of people would suffer?
> 
> Come on @Arnie83 you can't believe that? :Hilarious


So tell me Elles what impact implementing a hard border overnight would have on the Ireland/NI border? Let's not concentrate solely on economics but also in terms of the little thing called the good friday agreement. Tell me what leaving would do to those EU citizens in the UK with no rights? You could also think about all those little things like euratom, open skies, etc etc. What is the impact of simply dropping them? Impact of dropping not just the single market but also trade throughout the world using EU trade agreements. Then there's the fact we don't have the infrastructure to cope with the necessary customs procedures required at a hard border. Testing products.. what's that? What impact would delays for imports/exports have?

Come on @Elles, you can do better than that.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Have you all become Tories when I wasn’t looking? I thought this government never did anything for the good of the people? I was just trying to help.

:Stop


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> I thought this government never did anything for the good of the people?


Should read "I thought politicians never did anything for the good of the people they represent"  It's not party specific unfortunately.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Elles said:


> I thought this government never did anything for the good of the people?


They don't much so why care whether they get a deal or not. Once we're out they can change everything anyway, do away with employment law/workers rights etc. which would be very advantageous to those at the top. Guess there must be some reason they're still bothering with negotiations. Maybe splendid isolation ain't such a good thing after all.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Is the paint dry yet please?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

DT said:


> Is the paint dry yet please?


Are the negotiations finished and we're out?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> Perhaps I should have said a _partial_ deal of some sort. I really don't believe that even this government would sacrifice the progress made in Ireland in the past 20 years on the altar of Brexiteer europhobia.


I wish I shared your faith Arnie. It seems to me the hard right are in control & are pushing for no deal and the 'disaster capitalists' are waiting in the wings to cash in on our misfortune.

Have look into those behind the Legatum Institute. http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86556


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Yep!

*Marcus Chown*‏@*marcuschown*  Oct 16

_
Had the Conservative Party been working for an enemy power it could not have damaged the interests of the UK & its people more effectively._


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Another consequence of brexit is the spike in hate crimes. No longer are we the tolerant society we once were. Brexit is making us insular - and poor.
_
Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports since Brexit vote, we know racism has rocketed too_.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/1...ium=Twittermob&Twittermob&utm_campaign=PNMOBT


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Another consequence of brexit is the spike in hate crimes. No longer are we the tolerant society we once were. Brexit is making us insular - and poor.
> _
> Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports since Brexit vote, we know racism has rocketed too_.
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/1...ium=Twittermob&Twittermob&utm_campaign=PNMOBT


I don't think this is true. Yes there might have been a spike in hate crimes, but there has always been hate crimes in the UK like anywhere else around the world. The subject in the UK has been highlighted more because of the referendum results by the media, Brexit cannot be blamed as it hasn't happened yet. We haven't left the EU yet.

Hate crime was on the increase in the UK well before the referendum took place. I know people who have been targeted because of their sexuality not because of Brexit or the referendum. So I cannot see the link this has to Brexit or the referendum.

Society hasn't changed as we are still an open and tolerant society.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Another consequence of brexit is the spike in hate crimes. No longer are we the tolerant society we once were. Brexit is making us insular - and poor.
> _
> Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports since Brexit vote, we know racism has rocketed too_.
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/1...ium=Twittermob&Twittermob&utm_campaign=PNMOBT


LOL


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> _Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports since Brexit vote, we know racism has rocketed too_.
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/1...ium=Twittermob&Twittermob&utm_campaign=PNMOBT


Can I just point something out.
This has no relevance to Brexit what so ever. The problem we have in the UK is children are not taught about being gay and coming out, sex education etc. There is still alot of prejudism in the UK to people in the LGBTQ community and still alot of homophobic people around. Homophobic attacks have been on the increase in the UK for along time.

I know people in the LGBTQ comminuity that have been attacked because they are who they are and not once have the attackers claimed it is because of Brexit they are attacking them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think this is true. Yes there might have been a spike in hate crimes, but there has always been hate crimes in the UK like anywhere else around the world.


Yesterday the reported figures quoted a 29% increase nationwide.



stockwellcat. said:


> Homophobic attacks have been on the increase in the UK for along time.


Whereas you may not view them as directly related I believe there is some connection. The sort of thugs who carry out these attacks tend to just 'hate' everyone and everything different be it by race or sexual orientation. The Brexit vote gave them a certain authority - in their heads.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> Society hasn't changed as we are still an open and tolerant society.





stockwellcat. said:


> Can I just point something out, I know people in the LGBTQ comminuity that have been attacked because they are who they are.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't think this is true.


Let's see throughout history.. rise in nationalism and scapegoating.. rise in violence. Not related at all obviously. Nothing to do with brexit even though rise can be traced to the referendum and campaign to leave. Yes hate crime has always been a problem however many people feel they are now supported rather than condemned for their actions.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Let's see throughout history.. rise in nationalism and scapegoating.. rise in violence. Not related at all obviously. Nothing to do with brexit even though rise can be traced to the referendum and campaign to leave. Yes hate crime has always been a problem however many people feel they are now supported rather than condemned for their actions.


You would be able to trace back years before the referendum was even thought of and see there has been significant rises in racial and homophobic attacks and year on year have increased. Again Brexit in my opinion is not the cause of this because it hasn't happened yet.

We could also highlight that in Germany and other European countries there has been a rise in attacks since Merkal invited all the migrants to swamp Europe with no ID or identity papers.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Again Brexit in my opinion is not the cause of this because it hasn't happened yet.


It was the result of the referendum, not the actual exit, which emboldened the mindless thugs. There is little point attempting to use reason and logic about us not having left yet - they are not capable of such higher brain function.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> We could also highlight that in Germany and other European countries there has been a rise in attacks since Merkal invited all the migrants to swamp Europe with no ID or identity papers.


Of course, same reasons.. rise of nationalism and popularism blaming minorities has led to an increase in hate crimes supported by politicians who push that agenda for their own purposes. Blame people for problems even if not based on reality and of course some will use it as justification.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> We could also highlight that in Germany and other European countries there has been a rise in attacks since *Merkal invited all the migrants to swamp Europe *with no ID or identity papers.


2016 refugee migrants in Europe = c. 1,000,000

Population of the EU = c. 525,000,000

Swamped?

I suspect that in some places less estimable than PF threads, such language might add to the upward pressure on the very instances under current discussion.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

stockwellcat. said:


> You would be able to trace back years before the referendum was even thought of and see there has been significant rises in racial and homophobic attacks and year on year have increased.


Perhaps as the country becomes more tolerant, people subjected to these attacks feel safer in coming forward so it is just a rise in the reporting of the attacks.

As Noush actually put it - "_Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports"._


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> You would be able to trace back years before the referendum was even thought of and see there has been significant rises in racial and homophobic attacks and year on year have increased. Again Brexit in my opinion is not the cause of this because it hasn't happened yet.
> 
> We could also highlight that in Germany and other European countries there has been a rise in attacks since Merkal invited all the migrants to swamp Europe with no ID or identity papers.





MilleD said:


> Perhaps as the country becomes more tolerant, people subjected to these attacks feel safer in coming forward so it is just a rise in the reporting of the attacks.
> 
> As Noush actually put it - "_Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports"._


No it appears to be due to brexit. Some of us tried to highlight this would be a danger if leave won prior to the vote. And this is the reason why as stated in this article - _The pro-Brexit, xenophobic narrative from some campaigners, and the vote result, helped galvanise and legitimise prejudiced beliefs, mobilising an otherwise silent minority to take to the streets._" Professor Williams said.

From the same article. http://socialdatalab.net/professor-...ated-hate-crime-findings-on-bbc-ones-panorama

BBC One's Panorama programme 'Hate on the Streets' takes a hard look at the rising tide of hate since the referendum on the UK's future in the EU. Producers made contact with the Social Data Science Lab to get expert opinion on the statistical trends on hate crime both on and offline. Home Office and social media data being analysed as part of the Lab's ESRC New and Emerging Forms of Data (NEFD) Policy Demonstrator Grant formed the empirical evidence for the programme.

On the focus of the programme, Professor Matt Williams said* "Official police recorded crime figures show a clear rise in hate offences around the time of the referendum. While increased reporting and better recording practices may be partly accountable, they are unlikely to be solely responsible for the highest recorded spike in hate crime since records began*.

If you haven't seen this clip from Hate on Streets prepare to be sickened. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-41584532/the-truth-about-hate-crime-and-brexit? utm_content=buffer79fbe&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> No it appears to be due to brexit. Some of us tried to highlight this would be a danger if leave won prior to the vote. And this is the reason why as stated in this article - _The pro-Brexit, xenophobic narrative from some campaigners, and the vote result, helped galvanise and legitimise prejudiced beliefs, mobilising an otherwise silent minority to take to the streets._" Professor Williams said.
> 
> From the same article. http://socialdatalab.net/professor-...ated-hate-crime-findings-on-bbc-ones-panorama
> 
> ...


Huh. Experts 

Who needs 'em.


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Another consequence of brexit is the spike in hate crimes. No longer are we the tolerant society we once were. Brexit is making us insular - and poor.
> _
> Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports since Brexit vote, we know racism has rocketed too_.
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/1...ium=Twittermob&Twittermob&utm_campaign=PNMOBT


So the data shows the breakdown of the reason behind the crime but it does not show the type of person behind the crimes itself.

There is nothing to suggest for example that everyone who committed the crimes voted to leave the EU. Nothing to suggest that there are more hate crimes towards race by members of any religious group. There are no figures to show how many hate crimes were committed by heterosexual people across all categories as apposed to how many were committed by LGBTQ (what's the Q part) folk. Are there more people of a certain ethnicity having an aversion to disabled people for example?

It's OK saying it has risen but the key facts in all of this is why, doesn't mean it's because of the whole leaving thing, that could just be a coincidence or that they have been specifically looking out for such things.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

hutch6 said:


> There are no figures LGBTQ (*what's the Q part*) folk.


LGBTQI = Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning and Intersex

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/LGBTQI


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

The murder rate in America since Friends was no longer being broadcast has decreased. It seems Friends was a great source of anger and resentment for people in America. Doesn't surprise me though as I couldn't stand it.

Friends ran from September 22, 1994, to May 6, 2004,

rate for murder and nonnegligent manslaughter per 100,000 people in the United States.

Year & Homicide 
rate

1994 9.0 
1995 8.2 
1996 7.4 
1997 6.8 
1998 6.3 
1999 5.7 
2000 5.5 
2001 5.6 
2002 5.6 
2003 5.7 
2004 5.5

KEEP FRIENDS OFF OUR SCREENS AND OUR STREETS WILL BE SAFE!!!

Edit: sorry, posted the wrong years


----------



## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> LGBTQI = Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Questioning and Intersex
> 
> http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/LGBTQI


Hang on I asked about a Q and you've just thrown two Qs and an I into the picture with no word of warning!!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

hutch6 said:


> Hang on I asked about a Q and you've just thrown two Qs and an I into the picture with no word of warning!!


Thats the dictionary definition.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> *No it appears to be due to brexit.*


Referendum. Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Anyway.

It may well be coincidence that hate crime has gone up as hate crime has been rising year on year in every country across the world not just the UK. Yes there may well be a spike at the moment but I believe it may well be due to the fact more people are reporting hate crimes than before when people didn't bother reporting such crimes as opposed to the referendum result. No I do not think the spike is related to Brexit at all.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

stockwellcat. said:


> Referendum. Brexit hasn't happened yet.
> 
> Anyway.
> 
> It may well be coincidence that hate crime has gone up as hate crime has been rising year on year in every country across the world not just the UK. Yes there may well be a spike at the moment but I believe it may well be due to the fact more people are reporting hate crimes than before when people didn't bother reporting such crimes as opposed to the referendum result. No I do not think the spike is related to Brexit at all.


Unless the attacks are by the remainers because they are annoyed about the result?

Sorry, I hate to stoop to that level but the things being blamed on 'Brexit' with no proof are a bit much.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Referendum. Brexit hasn't happened yet.


The rise is a direct result of leave campaign, the same campaign pushing people's fears so they voted for Brexit. The two, referendum and brexit are connected. Semantics don't change that basic fact.



MilleD said:


> Unless the attacks are by the remainers because they are annoyed about the result?
> 
> Sorry, I hate to stoop to that level but the things being blamed on 'Brexit' with no proof are a bit much.


So you don't see any correlation between a campaign scapegoating immigrants as the cause of all problems in the UK to a rise in hate crime against those same people at the exact same time.

In truth, it's not brexit.. it's popularism. It's just brexit is the UK's expression of popularism.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> The rise is a direct result of leave campaign, the same campaign pushing people's fears so they voted for Brexit. The two, referendum and brexit are connected. Semantics don't change that basic fact.


Sorry but I am not getting into a row over terminology.

My view on this is more people are coming forward than before so IMO it is not connected to what remainers believe. Before people never went to the police especially LGBT hate attacks as the police didn't take it seriously or just gave people a crime reference number.

The rise in statistics is because people are now coming forward and reporting hate crimes. I reckon the amount of hate crime is about the same with a slight rise but more people are coming forward and reporting these crimes instead of not bothering.

I have voiced my opinion and will leave it there.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Goblin said:


> The rise is a direct result of leave campaign, the same campaign pushing people's fears so they voted for Brexit. The two, referendum and brexit are connected. Semantics don't change that basic fact.
> 
> So you don't see any correlation between a campaign scapegoating* immigrants* as the cause of all problems in the UK to a rise in hate crime against those same people at the exact same time.
> 
> In truth, it's not brexit.. it's popularism. It's just brexit is the UK's expression of popularism.


And what has that got to do with gay people exactly?

Are immigrants gay now?


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

A campaign that focuses on 'the other', be it in the form of Polish migrants, 75 million Turks about to join the EU or a long line of refugees on a UKIP poster, encourages people to 'Take Back Control' of the UK borders. The campaign secures victory in the referendum and immediately the number of hate crimes targeting the very same groups rockets.

It seems to me to stretch common sense way beyond breaking point to suggest that the two are not connected but are instead the result of more people reporting them.

*Hate crimes soared by 41% after Brexit vote, official figures reveal*
Home Office figures appear to correlate with previous reports of a rise in post-Brexit hate crime

There was a sharp increase in the number of racially or religiously aggravated crimes recorded by police in England and Wales following the EU referendum.
Data from 31 police forces showed that 1,546 racially or religiously aggravated offences were recorded in the two weeks up to and including the day of the referendum on June 23. But in the fortnight immediately after the poll, the number climbed by almost half to 2,241.​
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ncrease-police-figures-official-a7358866.html


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Arnie83 said:


> A campaign that focuses on 'the other', be it in the form of Polish migrants, 75 million Turks about to join the EU or a long line of refugees on a UKIP poster, encourages people to 'Take Back Control' of the UK borders. The campaign secures victory in the referendum and immediately the number of hate crimes targeting the very same groups rockets.
> 
> It seems to me to stretch common sense way beyond breaking point to suggest that the two are not connected but are instead the result of more people reporting them.
> 
> ...


But the discussion was about the increase in homophobic attacks.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MilleD said:


> But the discussion was about the increase in homophobic attacks.


Top of this page ...



stockwellcat. said:


> It may well be coincidence that *hate crime *has gone up as *hate crime* has been rising year on year in every country across the world not just the UK. Yes there may well be a spike at the moment but I believe it may well be due to the fact more people are reporting *hate crimes* than before when people didn't bother reporting such crimes as opposed to the referendum result. No I do not think the spike is related to Brexit at all.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Arnie83 said:


> Top of this page ...
> 
> ​


And where the discussion actually started.



noushka05 said:


> Another consequence of brexit is the spike in hate crimes. No longer are we the tolerant society we once were. Brexit is making us insular - and poor.
> _
> Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports since Brexit vote, we know racism has rocketed too_.
> 
> http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/1...ium=Twittermob&Twittermob&utm_campaign=PNMOBT


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> Huh. Experts
> 
> Who needs 'em.


I'm sick to death of their project fear & fake news, aren't you? lol


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> *I'm sick to death of their project fear *& fake news, aren't you? lol


Yes I am.
Remainers are doing a very good job with project fear started by David Cameron and George Osborne in 2016.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

More project fear.

 *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 22h22 hours ago


_Recognition at last of havoc #*Brexit* & _
_Withdrawal Bill are set to wreak on _
_environmental laws, & of our amendments_


*UK withdrawal bill 'rips the heart out of environmental law', say campaigners *
New bill omits key 'precautionary' principle requiring developers and industry to prove actions will not harm wildlife or habitats as well as 'polluter pays' protections


https://www.theguardian.com/environ...onmental-law-say-campaigners?CMP=share_btn_tw


----------



## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> More project fear.
> 
> *Caroline Lucas*‏Verified [email protected]*CarolineLucas* 22h22 hours ago
> 
> ...


For anyone who can't be bothered reading the link (perhaps justifiably put off by any implied endorsement from that Lucas woman) the summary is at the end.....

*"The decision to leave the European Union creates new opportunities for a green Brexit and to enhance our environmental standards. We now have the chance to deliver higher standards of animal welfare and reform how we manage our land, rivers and seas."

*


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> For anyone who can't be bothered reading the link (perhaps justifiably put off by any implied endorsement from that Lucas woman) the summary is at the end.....
> 
> *"The decision to leave the European Union creates new opportunities for a green Brexit and to enhance our environmental standards. We now have the chance to deliver higher standards of animal welfare and reform how we manage our land, rivers and seas."
> 
> *


With the Tories and their business backers in charge, and using Henry VIII secondary legislation, what could possibly go wrong?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Satori said:


> For anyone who can't be bothered reading the link (perhaps justifiably put off by any implied endorsement from that Lucas woman) the summary is at the end.....
> 
> *"The decision to leave the European Union creates new opportunities for a green Brexit and to enhance our environmental standards. We now have the chance to deliver higher standards of animal welfare and reform how we manage our land, rivers and seas."
> 
> *


A DEFRA spokesman said that. If you'd been following the badger cull or the hen harrier persecution by grouse moors debate, you'd be aware DEFRA are no longer fit for purpose. They are facilitating ecocide.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Satori said:


> For anyone who can't be bothered reading the link (perhaps justifiably put off by any implied endorsement from that Lucas woman) the summary is at the end.....
> 
> *"The decision to leave the European Union creates new opportunities for a green Brexit and to enhance our environmental standards. We now have the chance to deliver higher standards of animal welfare and reform how we manage our land, rivers and seas."
> 
> *


Yes but that crucial paragraph you highlighted in bold has been deliberately left out of the copy and paste job @noushka05 done because it couldn't be scaremongering if she put it in. Plus it's a positive thing as well, remainers don't like positive aspects of Brexit.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I wish TM would stop wasting tax payers money. She is off to Brussel's again today, she was only there a couple of days ago. She could have discussed what she was going to discuss today a couple of days ago: http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-makes-offer-to-eu-citizens-ahead-of-crunch-summit-11087427


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Yes but that crucial paragraph you highlighted in bold has been deliberately left out of the copy and paste job @noushka05 done @Satori because it couldn't be scaremongering if she put it in. Plus it's a positive thing as well, remainers don't like positive aspects of Brexit.


The government has removed the 'precautionary principle' and 'polluters pay' SWC. Do you not realise what this means?

Do you really trust the tories? Think about it.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Britain has lost £490 billion.

40 years of EU membership costs gone in the first 16 months. But its labour we can't trust with the economy:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Britain has lost £490 billion.
> 
> 40 years of EU membership costs gone in the first 16 months. But its labour we can't trust with the economy:Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> '*polluters pay*'. Do you not realise what this means?


Well that's a good thing if polluters have to pay, isn't it (because they aren't currently)?  Look at the state of our rivers and beaches because of plastic polluters, microbeads killing our fish and marine wildlife.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well that's a good thing if polluters have to pay, isn't it because they aren't currently?  Look at the state of our rivers and beaches because of plastic polluters.


Well I'm glad you've admitted that's a good thing SWC, because that's what the tories are getting rid of............................................................................................

*New bill omits key 'precautionary' principle requiring developers and industry to prove actions will not harm wildlife or habitats as well as 'polluter pays' protections*


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Well I'm glad you've admitted that's a good thing SWC, because that's what the tories are getting rid of............................................................................................
> 
> *New bill omits key 'precautionary' principle requiring developers and industry to prove actions will not harm wildlife or habitats as well as 'polluter pays' protections*


Nobody is doing anything about the plastic pollution @noushka05. Sky News is leading a campaign about this and it's disgusting the amount of plastic in our waters.

We'll be out of the EU so can set an example by cleaning up our water's and clean up our air. I did hear they are planning to introduce electric only cars and getting rid of petrol or diesel cars soon (by 2040). Tories are planning to do this as part of their plan to clean up the environment @noushka05.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> I did hear they are planning to introduce electric only cars and getting rid of petrol or diesel cars soon. Tories are planning to do this as part of their plan to clean up the environment @noushka05.


And of course the oil companies are going to go quietly over this one. Such a huge income and profit under threat.

Not bloody likely. :Stop

There'll be nowt to go to war over either.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> And of course the oil companies are going to go quietly over this one. Such a huge income and profit under threat.
> 
> Not bloody likely. :Stop
> 
> There'll be nowt to go to war over either.


We may well have drained this planet of this resource by then. But if not more oil to use for heating to keep us warm at home.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> Britain has lost £490 billion.
> 
> 40 years of EU membership costs gone in the first 16 months. But its labour we can't trust with the economy:Hilarious


Um, are you saying that's to do with Brexit too? Because it also isn't.

The investment flows possibly are, but not the £490bn, that's a revaluation of assets and would have happened anyway. But why let that ruin a good story eh?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> We may well have drained this planet of this resource by then. But if not more oil to use for heating to keep us warm at home.


Oil reserves will not be exhausted in our lifetime and nor will the internal combustion engine disappear within that same time period. Engineers/manufacturers are continuing to refine the engine in an all out effort to improve its efficiency.
The biggest challenge for the entire industry will be the fight to reduce carbon dioxide emissions to an absolute acceptable minimum.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Nobody is doing anything about the plastic pollution @noushka05. Sky News is leading a campaign about this and it's disgusting the amount of plastic in our waters.
> 
> We'll be out of the EU so can set an example by cleaning up our water's and clean up our air. I did hear they are planning to introduce electric only cars and getting rid of petrol or diesel cars soon (by 2040). Tories are planning to do this as part of their plan to clean up the environment @noushka05.


Good grief SWC.

The very reason the hard right want us out of the EU is because EU directives protect us & our environment from vested interests they protect us from our own government! And my real concern for the environment was the main reason I voted remain. Of course you dismissed my posts about it as 'project fear' back then.

Please try to look objectively at what the tories are doing - they are getting rid of the 'precautionary principle' & polluter pays. Why do you think that is?














MilleD said:


> Um, are you saying that's to do with Brexit too? Because it also isn't.
> 
> The investment flows possibly are, but not the £490bn, that's a revaluation of assets and would have happened anyway. But why let that ruin a good story eh?


I'm saying half a trillion pounds has 'gone missing'. I'm saying the tories are fiscally incompetent and I'm saying how on earth are we supposed afford brexit now?


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Theresa May is in Brussels today, and the government has made this announcement this morning.

*PM's open letter to EU citizens in the UK *

"_When we started this process, some accused us of treating EU nationals as bargaining chips. Nothing could have been further from the truth. EU citizens who have made their lives in the UK have made a huge contribution to our country. And we want them and their families to stay. I couldn't be clearer: EU citizens living lawfully in the UK today will be able to stay.

_
_But this agreement will not only provide certainty about residence, but also healthcare, pensions and other benefits. It will mean that EU citizens who have paid into the UK system - and UK nationals into the system of an EU27 country - can benefit from what they've put in. It will enable families who have built their lives together in the EU and UK to stay together. And it will provide guarantees that the rights of those UK nationals currently living in the EU, and EU citizens currently living in the UK, will not diverge over time."_


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

samuelsmiles said:


> Theresa May is in Brussels today, and the government has made this announcement this morning.
> 
> *PM's open letter to EU citizens in the UK *
> 
> ...


She's such a shameless liar, isn't she?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Waste all this time and effort on brexit for zero reward whilst the NHS crumbles. Shocking.

*While all eyes look to Brexit, our NHS is about to collapse*

https://amp.theguardian.com/comment...-collapse-nurses-leave-flu-epidemic-hospitals


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

You know what I reckon?


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

samuelsmiles said:


> Theresa May is in Brussels today, and the government has made this announcement this morning.
> 
> *PM's open letter to EU citizens in the UK *
> 
> ...


That's very carefully worded isn't it.

How much easier to say "Your current benefits and rights are guaranteed to continue for as long as you want to live here."

But, of course, they're not.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> I'm saying half a trillion pounds has 'gone missing'. I'm saying the tories are fiscally incompetent and I'm saying how on earth are we supposed afford brexit now?


So absolutely nothing to do with any previous government? Assets that have probably been held for years?

I can understand how this revaluation could _affect_ Brexit, but it's not an _effect_ of Brexit.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Wonder if austria will be singing


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Wonder if UK will be singing


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

It's now being reported that Angela Merkel is optimistic that trade talks can begin in December. That'd be good.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> Wonder if UK will be singing


Doubt it! A dime would be of no use


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> Doubt it! A dime would be of no use


Ooh I dunno; probably worth a couple of quid come April 2019!


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

samuelsmiles said:


> It's now being reported that Angela Merkel is optimistic that trade talks can begin in December. That'd be good.


Amazing how things change when Mrs May starts putting a plan together for no-deal. True colours coming out now as to who was holding up negotiations.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

*EU leaders play down Brexit talks progress after Theresa May's plea for 'urgency'*

EU leaders have welcomed Theresa May's latest offer to free up Brexit negotiations but talked down chances of them moving on to the crucial trade stage.

Angela Merkel arrived at a summit of the 28 countries in Brussels, praising the "encouraging" progress.

Mrs May trailed her journey there with news she would make it easier for the three million EU citizens living in Britain to remain here after March 2019.

But EU leaders are expected to vote down a motion confirming "sufficient progress" has been made since Article 50 was triggered.

That would mean Brexit Secretary David Davis is powerless to begin negotiations on the UK's future relationship with the EU, including on trade.

Mr Davis gave an interview to European media on the eve of the summit trying to exert his own leverage, calling for the EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier to be given "more leeway in his mandate".

But French President Emmanuel Macron downplayed the idea, telling reporters as he arrived in Brussels that the EU27 was "united" behind Mr Barnier.

The Maltese Prime Minister, Joseph Muscat, also went on the defensive.

He told Sky News it was "pretty clear" EU leaders would vote down the "sufficient progress" motion.

He did say a statement would be passed in the "spirit" of progress and added: "The wording will be encouraging."

Mrs May remained defiant at the summit, hailing the "concrete progress made so far" and stressing "urgency" of agreeing deals on things like citizens' rights.

She added the UK would play a full role in dealing with the shared challenges of counter-terrorism, migration and defence.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has *also been in Brussels*, flanked by a delegation of shadow ministers, and held several meetings with top level EU officials.

Shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer told Sky News it was *only "responsible" for the Opposition to be meeting with Mr Barnier* "to make sure that we fully understand the seriousness of the situation".

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-leader...-after-theresa-mays-plea-for-urgency-11088351

So I stick with my original answer on this thread "No deal and let's just leave".


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

[QUOTE="stockwellcat., post: 1065005632,
So I stick with my original answer on this thread "No deal and let's just leave".[/QUOTE]
Illr go along with that:Bawling


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Personally I don't want to deal!
I hope we do walk away!
Who on earth would want to deal with 26 other countries that wished them harm?


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

DT said:


> Personally I don't want to deal!
> I hope we do walk away!
> Who on earth would want to deal with 26 other countries that wished them harm?


Ahhhh I agree, but now who's in the driving seat?


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> We'll be out of the EU so can set an example by cleaning up our water's and clean up our air. I did hear they are planning to introduce electric only cars and getting rid of petrol or diesel cars soon (by 2040). Tories are planning to do this as part of their plan to clean up the environment @noushka05.


You are right.. Gove made loads of promises when he became environment minister. Now the question is how many of his words match actions. What is he proposing to do about the infrastructure to support electric cars or is he going to leave it for future governments to sort out? Easy to promise the future when you are not going to be responsible for delivering it. What about the fact of air pollution which is already over EU limits is going to be made worse with the introduction of a new heathrow runway? Of course this is also the government which was attempting to block the banning of neocides within the EU. Actions are more credible than words. Current government excels at words rather than action.



samuelsmiles said:


> It's now being reported that Angela Merkel is optimistic that trade talks can begin in December. That'd be good.


Reported by who? There's been talk of a leaked plan for trade but that was on the cards regardless. The EU seems to plan for things ahead of time rather than scrambling around at the last minute. Where's the UK plan I wonder. Germany still insists on the order of doing things agreed at the start of the negotiations. Then of course it's not simply germany calling the shots despite the media attempting to give that impression as "they are the enemy and the EU is the puppet", a falsehood. Once again media is trying to scramble to convince the public more progress has been made than reality. UK needs to sort out the bill, citizen rights and NI border. Other governments etc will not be persuaded by meaningless words which sound good but mean little. They are politicians too.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Personally I don't want to deal!
> I hope we do walk away!
> Who on earth would want to deal with 26 other countries that wished them harm?


Well they don't want to negotiate. So yes we should walk away.

Waste of tax payers money TM going to Brussels today let alone Labour MP's going as well (who where wasting their time and money anyway).


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well they don't want to negotiate. So yes we should walk away.
> 
> Waste of tax payers money TM going to Brussels today let alone Labour MP's going as well (who where wasting their time and money anyway).
> 
> Can we hold a protest outside Downing Street about the Government wasting our tax money?


Well if we got on with the job and stopped messing around, the other 27 might starting taking us seriously.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> Well if we got on with the job and stopped messing around, the other 27 might starting taking us seriously.


What! And teach us a lesson? 
No thanks, no deal


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> Well if we got on with the job and stopped messing around, the other 27 might starting taking us seriously.


I agree. We should have walked away from the negotiations already instead of wasting money trying to negotiate anything the EU aren't prepared to negotiate on themselves.

We have wasted alot of money trying to negotiate with a brick wall. Money that could have been spent striking deals with other countries outside of the EU and in this country.

The only time the EU will take the UK seriously is when the UK walks away from the negotiations. This is when they realise we are serious when we have left.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Personally I don't want to deal!
> I hope we do walk away!
> Who on earth would want to deal with 26 other countries that wished them harm?





Dr Pepper said:


> Ahhhh I agree, but now who's in the driving seat?





stockwellcat. said:


> I agree. We should have walked away from the negotiations already instead of wasting money trying to negotiate anything the EU aren't prepared to negotiate on themselves.


Yet none of you are prepared or able to start to list the repurcussions of doing so and what it would actually mean.


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## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)

Actually, I think Angela Merkel is secretly envious of our Brexit. She has admitted on more than one occasion that her 'open door policy' has been a disaster. If only Barnier and Juncker could just step aside.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> I agree. We should have walked away from the negotiations already instead of wasting money trying to negotiate anything the EU aren't prepared to negotiate on themselves.
> 
> We have wasted alot of money trying to negotiate with a brick wall. Money that could have been spent striking deals with other countries outside of the EU and in this country.
> 
> The only time the EU will take the UK seriously is when the UK walks away from the negotiations. This is when they realise we are serious when we have left.


It's us that has no idea of what we want or how to go about it. We wanted to leave so why should the EU bend over backwards to sort things out, it's a problem of our own governments making.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Yet none of you are prepared or able to start to list the repurcussions of doing so and what it would actually mean.


So your answer is to continue these fruitless negotiations the EU aren't prepared themselves to negotiate on. No we should leave.

We wouldn't be paying lawyers or wasting money negotiating with the EU who aren't prepared to negitiate themselves. We could use this money in the UK and striking deals with other countries outside of the EU.

Why waste your time negotiating with a brick wall?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

*No agreement at EU summit on citizens' rights despite reassurances from Theresa May*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/19/no-agreement-eu-summit-citizens-rights-despite-reassurances/amp/

*We'll vote down Brexit deal that strips any rights from EU citizens, say MEPs*
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...ights-from-eu-citizens-say-meps-a3662776.html

This is what we are negotiating with (a brick wall):


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> So your answer is to continue these fruitless negotiations the EU aren't prepared themselves to negotiate on. No we should leave.


Yet you fail to provide details of what this would actually mean. Not only are you proud to state you voted for leaving when you don't seem to have any idea of the implications you now want to compound that by calling to leave the EU without minimising the damage caused. All because the EU are sticking to what they said from the start and which you voted for.

Edit: Even more the case considering the UK government can't even sort it's great repeal bill out.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> *We want to leave *so why should the EU bend over backwards to sort things out, it's a problem of our own governments making.


So why should we negotiate then. You said above. We want to leave. The EU aren't helping in the negotiation and are blocking any attempts the UK makes to negotiate with them. That isn't negotiating by the way the EU are doing. Negotiations go both ways with a bit of given and take both ways. The EU is pushing the UK to a no deal on the 29th March 2019 and if this happens it won't be the UK's fault the EU cut their nose off to spite their face (so to speek). The UK negotiators are complaining because they have run out of things to negotiate about, which translates that the EU aren't interested in negotiating.

So what's the point of negotiating with a brick wall when it won't listen or negotiate back?

How negotiations work: Leaving Party says they want to leave Remaining Parties say ok but we need to negotiate this and this and this. Leaving party says ok. Negotiations begin both sides enter into conversation with each other about how this will work etc. When either party disagrees it is negotiated further until both parties agree and make an agreement.

UK-EU negotiations go something like this UK says they are going to leave the EU goes well we want this, this and this sorting first and money. UK tries to negotiate on these issues EU goes :Headphone because they are not interested. The EU have no interest what-so-ever in holding a proper negotiation. So they are the brick wall. Walking away will remove this headache, we will be unshackled from the EU and it's laws and free to trade with whom we wish to trade with. The EU lose an important trading partner because of their refusal to negotiate with the UK forcing the UK into a hard Brexit from the EU's own doing.

Negotiators have said to the media they have run out of things to negotiate because the EU are not recipricating by negotiating back. If the EU do not want to negotiate with us, let us go, why wait until 2019? Oh I think I am about to explain why, by drawing the negotiations out the UK is hemorrhaging money on talks the EU do not want to have and legal advice etc to get a no deal, when we could already be out by walking away from the negotiations.

That is why a hard brexit is favourable. Why talk to someone who doesn't want to listen, that someone being the EU?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> So why should we negotiate then.


You negotiate acknowledging some things are fixed, others are not. The one holding the cards can have more "fixed" lines than the ones who have less or none. Gove lied when he said the UK held the cards (what a shock considering he lied all through the leave campaign). Comes as no or little surprise for many as this was obvious from the start. Germany does not run the EU and dictate everything so the idea that as the UK buys german cars we hold the cards is nonsense. Keeping the EU is more important than the UK market to Germany. This is what you voted for and it will not simply stop here. We can expect not to hold the all the cards in many other interactions in the future.. trade agreements attempting to replace EU ones being one. Instead of the EU holding the cards, the UK will negotiate from a weaker position.

You still avoid totally the impact of your "hard brexit" and what it would actually mean. To actually call for it you should understand what it would mean in the first place. This is after all what you and others voted for isn't it. Leaving the EU.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MilleD said:


> So absolutely nothing to do with any previous government? Assets that have probably been held for years?
> 
> I can understand how this revaluation could _affect_ Brexit, but it's not an _effect_ of Brexit.


The tories have been in power for 7 years & we now have a basket case economy, that is despite them punishing us with their austerity & selling off our cash generating assets. Where has all that money gone? Blaming previous governments is getting ridiculous. So can you please supply references showing why previous governments share responsibility for the lost billions?

Here are my references.
Video on this one - http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/britain-is-490-billion-poorer-than-we-thought/

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...490-billion-poorer-thought-ons-reveals/16/10/
Shock figures released by the Office of National Statistics (ONS) show that Britain is £490 billion poorer than was thought. Britain's stock of wealth has fallen from a surplus of of £469 billion to a net deficit of £22 billion.

The UK has totally lost its reserve of foreign assets, and is actually in a much more vulnerable deficit, losing any safety margin just Theresa May's government is attempting a breakthrough in a crucial stage of Brexit negotiations.

This massive write-down of the UK's assets has left markets stunned across the world, and is majorly embarrassing for the UK government at a precarious time for the country. Foreign direct investment into the UK at the same time has also fallen from a £120 billion surplus in the first half of 2016 to a £25 billion deficit for the first half of this year

Major questions will be raised about how the stewardship of the economy, how the government has been measuring the UK's national income so inaccurately, and how Britain's safety net has been allowed to disappear in such a major way.

The Daily Telegraph report that global banks have been left stunned by the revised ONS figures dropping almost half a trillion off the UK's assets.

"The outflows from the UK began in mid-August," Simon Derrick, strategist at The Bank Of New York Mellon, the world's biggest custodial institution, looking after £23 trillion. He added: "The big buyers are disappearing".

"It is time to reappraise where the UK is," reacted Richard Murphy of Tax Research UK. "It's not pretty, at all. The need for a Brexit deal is overwhelming. But who knows if it is on the cards

And then, start asking questions. Perhaps the most compelling is of the sectoral balances, because if the foreign sector is not supplying the support it was then the obvious question is who is substituting for them? This, right now, might be the biggest question of all. The foreign sector has been UK savers. If it isn't any more and the government position is correctly stated, what is happening in the UK domestic market? That's not clear."

The colossal sum that's gone AWOL is the equivalent of 40 years of EU contributions and could leave the pound plummeting a further 20%. The drop in investment will be linked to the shambolic nature of current Brexit negotiations. And questions will be asked about the amount of debt floating around the UK domesticaly.

Three million Brits are in persistent debt, paying around £2.50 for every £1 borrowed. The Labour Party wants this capped at £1 or 100% of the borrowed amount.

If we are on the brink of another debt crisis, it is now the Labour party attacking the Conservatives on economic mismanagement, rather than the other way round. And with the pound plunging nearly every time Theresa May delivers an important speech and the UK's debt rating downgraded to its lowest level in history, Labour have plenty of ammunition right now.

*After three elections, the Conservative Party can no longer blame the Labour Party for the global banking crisis of 2008, for the state of the UK economy, an ever weaker Brexit negotiating position and a globally discredited, bankrupt policy of austerity.*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> You know what I reckon?


We're supposed to be better off for leaving, not 'surviving' :Hilarious

_*Dad, I miss the way things were before brexit.*

_

_










_


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is excellent by the Greens Molly Scott Cato -

*Brexit poses an 'extreme risk' to Britain's food security. 
Don't ignore the warnings
*
As food security begins to decline across the world,
Britain is entering dangerous territory in trying to leave the single market

*Global food security - its availability, affordability, quality and safety - is beginning to slip for the first time in half a decade. Britain, being far from self sufficient in its food production, is taking a massive risk in quitting the safety of the single market.*

In response to concerns about the impact of a no-deal Brexit on food prices and the UK's food security, Brexiteer Chris Grayling suggested recently that British farmers will just have to grow more food.

Alongside this 'Dig For Victory' bravado was the suggestion that we should also increase imports from across the world: two diametrically opposed food and farming policies in one breath.

Such 'solutions' come easily if you've never had to think deeply about where food comes from; if all it has ever meant is a stroll to the nearest supermarket.

*This year's Global Food Security Index by the Economist Intelligence Unit 
dispels such cavalier attitudes to food in Britain post-Brexit and warms that 
leaving the EU poses an extreme risk to the UK's food security.
*
The report forecasts that personal incomes will fall by 6% through 2018 while a weaker pound is pushing up import costs; a double whammy, especially since the UK is becoming increasingly reliant on foreign food imports.

The Global Food Security Index follows even grimmer warnings earlier this year when a report by food policy experts warned that under either a hard or soft Brexit scenario, the UK faces serious challenges on food security.

The authors warn of dwindling supplies and erratic prices. They say that ministers and the public have become complacent after decades of consistent food supplies and stable prices for the UK; something greatly helped by our membership of the EU.

*The report goes as far as to suggest the scale of the 
challenge is "unprecedented for an advanced
economy outside of wartime".
*
The UK produced only 60% of the food it consumed in 2016 and plans to leave the EU at a time when there is greater reliance on imported food than at any time in the past five decades. About one quarter of the country's food is imported from the EU.

Just this week the chairman of Sainsbury's said UK consumers face a hefty hike in food prices if Britain leaves the EU without a trade deal. He warned the UK faces an average tariff of 22% on imported foodstuffs if Britain ends up trading with the EU under WTO rules.

As MEP for the South West I can assure Chris Grayling that it will not be so easy for UK farmers to step into the breach

*For one thing, UK farmers have no idea whether they'll receive any 
state support once we leave the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) which, 
for all its shortcomings, has underpinned our farming sector for 40 years.
*
Nor do our farmers have any idea about what tariff regimes we may face and, hence, what they might produce that would actually be profitable. Given such uncertainty, they are likely to be producing less not more.

My concerns for farming and the fact I represent a largely rural constituency has led me to investigate whether there can be a silver lining in the largely dark Brexit skies.

I commissioned two reports to explore the opportunities for the UK to move towards an ecologically sustainable farming system post-Brexit. Both reports looked at how we could relocalise food production, encourage biodiversity, improve animal welfare and boost rural economies

*Both reports agreed that post-CAP, investment must be retargeted towards 
rewarding farmers not landowners and focused on providing funding for advice, 
training and farmer-led research and innovation*.

If all this sounds familiar, perhaps it's because much of this was echoed in Michael Gove's speech to Tory Party conference. He has pledged a 'Green Brexit', which will focus on "enhancing the environment" and "supporting innovation".

He also vowed to stop the handouts to rich landowners and introduce a new system of funding for farmers post-Brexit. So are Gove and Greens now speaking with one voice on a future vision for farming?

Sadly not, and Gove's speech had more to do with attacking the EU than offering anything visionary or indeed concrete for UK farmers.

The Government _has_ promised to match the £3 billion that farmers currently receive in support from CAP, but only until 2022, so beyond that all is uncertainty. Warm words won't transform farming or provide food security.

And Gove, like his colleague Chris Grayling, is one of the Brexiteers content to walk away from the EU without a deal.

*Such a cliff edge scenario would be disastrous for UK agriculture since 70% of the
country's food and agricultural exports go to EU countries. Data shows that those
favouring Brexit were largely the poorer and those with
a more tenuous attachment to the labour market.
*
Lured by the false promises of a stronger nation and more power for themselves and their country they were convinced they had nothing to lose.

*But warnings about the risks to our country's food supply give a clear sense of how wrong they are. We may see a transition from foodbank Britain to hungry Britain following a bungled exit from the EU.*

*Molly Scott Cato MEP is Green Party speaker on economics and on Brexit. She tweets here.
*
https://leftfootforward.org/2017/10...y-to-feed-ourselves-dont-ignore-the-warnings/


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> *But warnings about the risks to our country's food supply give a clear sense of how wrong they are. We may see a transition from foodbank Britain to hungry Britain following a bungled exit from the EU.*


We will still be trading with the EU the day after we leave you know. We default on to WTO rules so the difference will be is that we will be paying tarriffs to import food. We will also have our own crops to our selves eg potatoes, apples, bananas etc etc (these where an example). The UK could survive for sometime self sustaining itself but that wouldn't happen as I said above we'd still be trading withe the EU when we leave on WTO. Even Goblin mentioned the UK has some of its own WTO agreements in a previous thread, so the UK Government are fully aware how WTO works as we trade with the USA and Australia under WTO rules, oh and coincidently so does the EU. This myth that there will suddenly be no food or other items available after Brexit is balony and nothing more than scaremongering.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> We will also have our own crops to our selves eg potatoes, apples, bananas etc etc (these where an example). The UK could survive for sometime self sustaining itself


Can you link to where we grow Bananas?  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8390099.stm


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

The sooner the UK leaves the EU the better.

Benefits of leaving the EU:

No longer paying Lawyers for advice on Brexit.
No longer pay the EU fees for the Brexit process.
No longer wasting money going backwards and forwards to the EU to speak to the Brick Wall (EU).
We don't have to pay anything else to the EU.
We leave and it is done and dusted. We voted to do this after all, leave that is.

We will still trade with the EU under WTO like we do with other countries.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

DT said:


> stockwellcat. said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I don't want to deal!
> ...


Totally agree with both of you on that.
They have no intention of doing a deal with us, it's time to stop wasting time and the tax payers money and walk away.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> Can you link to where we grow Bananas?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8390099.stm


:Hilarious:Hilarious
Thought I'd put a bit of cheer on here with a mistake like that and see if anyone notices


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> We will still be trading with the EU the day after we leave you know. We default on to WTO rules so the difference will be is that we will be paying tarriffs to import food. We will also have our own crops to our selves eg potatoes, apples, bananas etc etc (these where an example). The UK could survive for sometime self sustaining itself but that wouldn't happen as I said above we'd still be trading withe the EU when we leave on WTO. Even Goblin mentioned the UK has some of its own WTO agreements in a previous thread, so the UK Government are fully aware how WTO works as we trade with the USA and Australia under WTO rules, oh and coincidently so does the EU. This myth that there will suddenly be no food or other items available after Brexit is balony and nothing more than scaremongering.


Here you show a basic misunderstanding of WTO rules. WTO is far more than simply tariffs. You can also include customs, testing, more red tape even penalising financial support from the government. You fail to acknowledge that the UK imports a vast majority of food. This food cannot simply be replaced with home grown produce, especially if we simply "leave" without first having done some work beforehand.

Wow.. we don't pay Lawyers, EU fees and anything else to the EU. Shame we pay far more due to things we lose. Essential infrastructure alone, not that it would be in place on leaving.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

There's a great article on page 16 of the Telegraph today with the headline: *We Have Nothing To Fear From WTO Rules *written by the economist Liam Halligan.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Here you show a basic misunderstanding of WTO rules. WTO is far more than simply tariffs. You can also include customs, testing, more red tape even penalising financial support from the government. You fail to acknowledge that the UK imports a vast majority of food. This food cannot simply be replaced with home grown produce.
> 
> Wow.. we don't pay Lawyers, EU fees and anything else to the EU. Shame we pay far more due to things we lose. Essential infrastructure alone, not that it would be in place on leaving.


Wow you show a great misunderstanding of WTO as well. The UK has a trade deficit with the EU and Liam Halligan economist says the UK would be better trading with the EU under WTO. We would be able to trade with 1% to 3% surcharge which means the UK would be making money using WTO. Remember we have a deficit on imports and exports in the UK from the EU. Read the article on Page 16 of the Telegraph if you dare.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Wow.. we don't pay Lawyers, EU fees and anything else to the EU. Shame we pay far more due to things we lose. Essential infrastructure alone, not that it would be in place on leaving.


Duh. We are paying for lawyers in the UK for advice on Brexit behind the scenes, negotiators etc.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Try again stockwellcat. WTO is more than simply tariffs. Of course having read his articles before he fails to recognise that many countries we trade with, we trade under EU trade advantages which we lose on leaving. Oops.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Duh. We are paying for lawyers in the UK for advice on Brexit behind the scenes, negotiators etc.


I was pointed out that suddenly removing them means we gain money is stupid. Then again we will still need lawyers and experts for decades to come to handle the brexit fallout, not necessarily with the EU as we scramble to achieve anything.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Still in my opinion a *No Deal* is more likely going to happen than a Deal because the EU are guiding the UK into a No Deal scenario with their Brick Wall stance and refusing to negotiate properly with the UK.

I hope the No Deal scenario happens before 29th March 2019 so we save money we are currently wasting trying to negotiate with the Brick Wall?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well they don't want to negotiate. So yes we should walk away.
> 
> Waste of tax payers money TM going to Brussels today let alone Labour MP's going as well (who where wasting their time and money anyway).


Ahh they are actually negotiating though, and doing very well too. The EU strategy is obviously to delay and drag out the talks for as long as possible so that we hit a brick wall close to the end of two years. I would do exactly to the same in their shoes, especially since we have no effective government in the UK any more. This was always going to be their approach.

What I don't understand is why the UK government is playing into their hands. Our approach has been ludicrous. I don't know if Theresa May is an idiot or just pretending and has a rabbit in the hat somewhere or if this is just because her party won't back any decisive movement. Either way we are the one legged man at an arse kicking competition at the moment and we are losing badly.

My guess is that we will have a last minute deal and that it will be a terrible deal, something close to effectively staying in the EU but on much worse terms than we have today. It didn't have to be this way if we had grown-ups in charge.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Still in my opinion a *No Deal* is more likely going to happen than a Deal because the EU are guiding the UK into a No Deal scenario with their Brick Wall stance and refusing to negotiate properly with the UK.


So the EU should simply cave in. Negotiations are like a game of poker, in this case though where both players know the other person's hand. Knowing that, why should they? Would you?

May has never had a real mandate for leaving. The actual word "leave" has never been defined. When she attempted to define it it resulted in a hung parliament and even cabinet ministers cannot agree on a definition. The government has promised to deliver the undeliverable whereas the strategy should have been to promise to deliver a minimum and deliver more. Of course people like Boris haven't really helped with that side of things.

The actual changes needed for leaving are only at the early planning stages. How much has been done on the following for example:

Replacements for EU regulators, euratom etc

Hiring additional civil servants for additional red tape
New facilities at ports.. ah wait.. M20 or is it M26 (cannot remember) becomes a lorry park.

New IT systems to address changes in how trade is handled (wonder how long that will take before it's working)
That's just the tip of the iceberg and you're saying just leave. At the very least we need to stay in the EU until some of these are in place rather than blindly jumping off a cliff.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> Personally I don't want to deal!
> I hope we do walk away!





Dr Pepper said:


> Ahhhh I agree





stockwellcat. said:


> Well they don't want to negotiate. So yes we should walk away.
> 
> Waste of tax payers money TM going to Brussels today let alone Labour MP's going as well (who where wasting their time and money anyway).





Honeys mum said:


> Totally agree with both of you on that.
> They have no intention of doing a deal with us, it's time to stop wasting time and the tax payers money and walk away.


So we walk away with no deal.

A hard border goes up the next day between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Okay with you?

Gridlock on the M20 and massive queues in Dover as customs checks and border controls are introduced overnight. What do you do as it keeps growing longer and longer, hour by hour, day by day, and the perishables begin to rot?

Are the 3 million EU citizens currently living in the UK suddenly illegal immigrants? What about the 1 million UK citizens in the EU?



stockwellcat. said:


> We will still be trading with the EU the day after we leave you know. We default on to WTO rules so the difference will be is that we will be paying tarriffs to import food. We will also have our own crops to our selves eg potatoes, apples, bananas etc etc (these where an example). The UK could survive for sometime self sustaining itself but that wouldn't happen as I said above we'd still be trading withe the EU when we leave on WTO. Even Goblin mentioned the UK has some of its own WTO agreements in a previous thread, so the UK Government are fully aware how WTO works as we trade with the USA and Australia under WTO rules, oh and coincidently so does the EU. *This myth that there will suddenly be no food or other items available after Brexit is balony and nothing more than scaremongering.*


Please quote any post, or linked article where anyone has suggest that this will happen? Just one.

I would suggest that making up scenarios and then rubbishing what you've made up is not a sound basis for constructive discussion.



stockwellcat. said:


> The sooner the UK leaves the EU the better.
> 
> Benefits of leaving the EU:
> 
> ...


You are concerned with the thousands of pounds we are paying lawyers and airlines, and yet advocate an action that will cost British business, and the exchequer, billions. This doesn't seem irrational to you?


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

She should stand up and tell them " we are leaving NOW
We won't be bullied or held to ransom by the self seeking con men of the EU, WE won't be coerced into giving them our money to leave just so they can punish us for having mind of our own."

Them walk away and let them stew in their own juice, We can and will be better off without them


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> She should stand up and tell them " we are leaving NOW
> We won't be bullied or held to ransom by the self seeking con men of the EU, WE won't be coerced into giving them our money to leave just so they can punish us for having mind of our own."
> 
> Them walk away and let them stew in their own juice, We can and will be better off without them


They're not bullying us & holding us hostage. Where do you get your information from Bisbow?

How will we be better off without them? Our NHS wont, our environment wont, our food & safety standards wont. How can we ever have better trade deals than we have now? Hoping, wishing & believing can't really make things better.

Our economy is tanking now because of brexit & this inept government & we haven't even left yet. We're going to be the dirty man of Europe once again - as well as the poor man.

This is the reality of a no deal Bisbow. This is not project fear - this is *reality*.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> They're not bullying us & holding us hostage. Where do you get your information from Bisbow?
> 
> How will we be better off without them? Our NHS wont, our environment wont, our food & safety standards wont. How can we ever have better trade deals than we have now? Hoping, wishing & believing can't really make things better.
> 
> ...


Any one with half an ounce of common sense can see we are being bullied and held to ransom
But you are so enamoured by your experts you can't see beyond the end of your nose

Every suggestion by us is shot down in flames by someone who wants the power to own us body and soul. Wants us to be the puppets at the end of their string


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well Merkel has told the press that trade talks are going to be more complicated that first phase talks:

*Brexit trade talks will be more complicated than first phase, says Merkel*
http://amp.theguardian.com/politics...re-complicated-than-first-phase-angela-merkel

So those looking to Merkel to rescuing the Brexit talks might be very disappointed reading this. Again I can see the UK just walking out of the negotiations with the EU and a No Deal happening.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> Any one with half an ounce of common sense can see we are being bullied and held to ransom
> But you are so enamoured by your experts you can't see beyond the end of your nose
> 
> Every suggestion by us is shot down in flames by someone who wants the power to own us body and soul. Wants us to be the puppets at the end of their string


The government don't have any sort plan - but its the EUs fault. OK.

I have looked at plenty of evidence Bisbow. I have looked at the state our economy is in now since the vote. I have listened to tory MPs who can't wait to have a bonfire with EU regulations which protect us & our environment. Have you done the same? If not, how can you possibly make an informed opinion if you don't look at the evidence from all sides?

Even Vote Leaves Oliver Norgrove & Dominic Cummings are honest enough to admit brexit is turning into a catastrophe.

Oliver Norgrove yesterday: _ I*f you're a commentator, agency, politician or journalist and you're publicly talking up a no deal Brexit you should be ashamed of yourself*_


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Even Vote Leaves Oliver Norgrove & Dominic Cummings are honest enough to admit brexit is turning into a catastrophe.
> 
> It is only turning into a catastrophe because that is what the EU want
> They want us down on our knees begging for forgiveness for being able to think for ourselves


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

In your opinion @Bisbow. But lets just say you are indeed right. Should we cut our nose off to spite our face then? Because no deal means we will be much poorer, our NHS gone forever. Our environment trashed. Our health & safety standards ripped up. For what gain? Thats what I want to know. I havent seen anyone anywhere give one tangible benefit for leaving. Just 'hopes' & 'beliefs' which mean sod all in reality.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> In your opinion @Bisbow. But lets just say you are indeed right. Should we cut our nose off to spite our face then? Because no deal means we will be much poorer, our NHS gone forever. Our environment trashed. Our health & safety standards ripped up. For what gain? Thats what I want to know. I havent seen anyone anywhere give one tangible benefit for leaving. Just 'hopes' & 'beliefs' which mean sod all in reality.


Do you have any proof we will be poorer forever? Not what your precious economists are saying or people you follow on twitter, facebook, instagram, snap chat etc say to scare people, I mean actual proof.

Why would our environment be affected because we have left the EU? It will be no different than it is at the moment or it could as I tried pointing out yesterday get better, we will still be signed up to the Paris agreement as well.

How will our health and safety change as well? From what I understand from day one of Brexit in whatever form nothing will change straight away.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

The youth are going to be disproportionately affected by this but many weren't old enough to vote who could now. The consequences of brexit will affect their futures the most. So sad. New report finds young people are 'bemused, angry & blaming older generations for brexit' 



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4cwxGLbY8aLd05uSllGWW5kUDA/view


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> The youth are going to be disproportionately affected by this but many weren't old enough to vote who could now. The consequences of brexit will affect their futures the most. So sad. New report finds young people are 'bemused, angry & blaming older generations for brexit'.


Here we go again. Same stuff that was in the closed thread.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> In your opinion @Bisbow. Just 'hopes' & 'beliefs' which mean sod all in reality.


If it wasn't for "hopes and beliefs" we would still be living in caves. You and a few others do seem very frightened of the unknown. Luckily throughout history there have been very many people with vision, hopes and believes who embraced the unknown.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> If it wasn't for "hopes and beliefs" we would still be living in caves. You and a few others do seem very frightened of the unknown. Luckily throughout history there have been very many people with vision, hopes and believes who embraced the unknown.


Its not the unknown though lol, theres a mountain range of evidence to show a no deal brexit will be a disaster. You just choose to be wilfully blind to it.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> Its not the unknown though lol, theres a mountain range of evidence to show a no deal brexit will be a disaster. You just choose to be wilfully blind to it.


.

Of course it's unknown as we don't know yet know what deals may or may not be done. Your mountain of evidence is just speculation at this point.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Bisbow said:


> Any one with half an ounce of common sense can see we are being bullied and held to ransom


Erm no.. they are saying hold to your previous commitments. They are saying provide plans which are realistic. They are saying about time you talk to us rather than to the UK public trying to con them.



> Every suggestion by us is shot down in flames by someone who wants the power to own us body and soul. Wants us to be the puppets at the end of their string


What things like we want a soft border even though that's impossible according to EU law. You mean protecting the rights of EU citizens in the UK. You mean looking after the interests of the people they are responsible for. Wow.. who would guess that is what they would do. Would be good if the UK government would do that only that would mean not leaving wouldn't it.



stockwellcat. said:


> Well Merkel has told the press that trade talks are going to be more complicated that first phase talks


That comes as a surprise? There's a reason a lot of trade deals take years as has been said from before the referendum. You ignored that as you had enough of experts. Leave and all these trade deals will suddenly be available and completed you indicated.








Bisbow said:


> It is only turning into a catastrophe because that is what the EU want


No it was only ever going to turn into a disaster. People were warned before they voted. It was dismissed as project fear. However it is worse than it could potentially have been due to mistakes partly driven by the need for "haste" and red lines drawn to satisfy a vocal minority.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Its not the unknown though lol, theres a *mountain range of evidence* to show a no deal brexit will be a disaster. You just choose to be wilfully blind to it.


Speculation and theory you mean.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> you had enough of *experts*. ​


​Theorists and speculators you mean.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> .
> 
> Of course it's unknown as we don't know yet know what deals may or may not be done. Your mountain of evidence is just speculation at this point.


No its not speculation. We know the government intend to rip the heart out of environmental protections. We know leaving is going to cost us much more than we pay to be in it. We know our already crumbling NHS will collapse. We know our economy is tanking even before we've left. These things are not 'fake news'.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> No its not speculation. We know the government intend to rip the heart out of environmental protections. We know leaving is going to cost us much more than we pay to be in it. We know our already crumbling NHS will collapse. We know our economy is tanking even before we've left. These things are not 'fake news'.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> The youth are going to be disproportionately affected by this but many weren't old enough to vote who could now. The consequences of brexit will affect their futures the most. So sad. New report finds young people are 'bemused, angry & blaming older generations for brexit'
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4cwxGLbY8aLd05uSllGWW5kUDA/view


Not all the young are spineless individuals you loke to think they are It is the negative articles you love to show us

My two grandchildren where brought up to stand on their own two feet and not rely on the EU to hand out goodies on a plate
They are using their own brains and doing very well thank you and making a success of their lives and the opportunities ahead of them
n


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well some good news at last:

*EU 'green-lights' Brexit trade talk preparations*

The EU has given the "green light" to preparations for the second phase of Brexit talks, dealing with trade.

European Council president Donald Tusk announced on Twitter from a summit in Brussels: "Brexit conclusions adopted. Leaders green-light internal EU27 preparations for 2nd phase."

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-green-lights-brexit-trade-talk-preparations-11089426

*EU agrees to begin preparing for Brexit trade talks*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-27-brexit-trade-talks-theresa-may-brussels-donald-tusk-a8010746.html?amp

*Brexit: EU leaders pave way for future trade talks*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-41684111


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The 3 million Eu citizens living in the uk have been told they are welcome and can stay whether there's a deal or not.

The NHS (and small farmers) would be better off if everyone took more care of themselves and the NHS wasn't treating the self harming majority. The NHS has gone down the list of my priorities. People need to stop playing into the hands of of big agribusiness and look after themselves more, so the nhs can look after those who really need it instead and the staff pay can be prioritised. Sorry.

"I think we've been through a period where too many people have been given to understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation." Maggie T

She was right then and she'd be right now. Eu or no Eu, we don't need the Eu to save the NHS and we don't need the Eu to save our environment. We need us. If we don't care enough, then it's our own fault, no one else's.

High tariffs on dairy, lamb and beef? I thought you'd be pleased @noushka05. Though I suppose if people still don't cut down, it will just mean more factory farming locally, to meet demand.

China is improving on environmental issues. The environment is a priority to China. Obviously we don't want to emulate Xi and China, any more than we want to emulate Trump and the US. We need to find our own ground.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Darn it. :Eggonface :Stop


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Theorists and speculators you mean.


To you have the same dismissive opinion of the scientists who warn about man-made climate change?


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well some good news at last:
> 
> *EU 'green-lights' Brexit trade talk preparations*
> 
> ...


Good news? But you have repeatedly told us there is no point in negotiating and that we should just walk away.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> Good news? But you have repeatedly told us there is no point in negotiating and that we should just walk away.


Well the EU are only preparing for the next phase but are still being pretty dismissive about phase one saying very little progress has been made. We could still end up with no deal.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> scientists who warn about man-made climate change?


Not associated with this thread.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sorry I missed these.



stockwellcat. said:


> Do you have any proof we will be poorer forever? Not what your precious economists are saying or people you follow on twitter, facebook, instagram, snap chat etc say to scare people, I mean actual proof.
> 
> Why would our environment be affected because we have left the EU? It will be no different than it is at the moment or it could as I tried pointing out yesterday get better, we will still be signed up to the Paris agreement as well.
> 
> How will our health and safety change as well? From what I understand from day one of Brexit in whatever form nothing will change straight away.


Brexit has already made us poorer. Isnt the onus is on you to prove we wont be poorer forever? 99% of leading economists have stated brexit will make us poorer - do we believe them or the 1%?

We've already discussed this - remember when we talked about precautionary principle & polluter pays our government are getting rid of? The tories are in breach of the climate change act SWC! We rely on EU Drs & Nurses, euratom. Brexit will be catastrophic for our NHS.













stockwellcat. said:


> Here we go again. Same stuff that was in the closed thread.


That is a brand new study. I don't see why posting something like that get a thread closed.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> We've already discussed this


So why keep going around in circles about stuff that has already been discussed on the closed thread?

Moving on now..


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Donald Tusk says reports of deadlock on Brexit have been exaggerated and there has been progress on a deal and hopes we will be in phase 2 in December 2017.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Not associated with this thread.


I'll take that as a 'no'.

If one respects scientific analysis and predictions by experts, I think one should really do so whether or not it is providing the answer one wants.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Donald Tusk says reports of deadlock on Brexit have been exaggerated and there has been progress on a deal and hopes we will be in phase 2 in December 2017.


Which should have been months ago. Does that mean you are changing your mind again against no deal?


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> That is a brand new study. I don't see why posting something like that get a thread closed.


No but we can but hope so we are forced not to discuss bloody Brexit. I know I should have the willpower to ignore the thread but I don't


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well the EU are only preparing for the next phase but are still being pretty dismissive about phase one saying very little progress has been made. We could still end up with no deal.


We could indeed end up with no deal. We most certainly will if we walk away from the negotiations right now, as you and others have been recommending in the posts above.

It is instructive that when I ask what actions you would take the day after we leave on the Irish Border, the huge delays on the south coast, and on the status of citizens, there is no response whatsoever from the thread's leading proponents of 'No Deal'.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Which should have been months ago. Does that mean you are changing your mind again against no deal?


From what has been said it is the British Press that have greatly exaggerated the deadlock.

There isn't very much time left to negotiate a trade deal as the EU want this finished by the Autumn of next year so the leaders can go back to their respective countries to agree or disagree on this.

Let's see what's offered because we still can walk away. But I will keep an open mind for now as to what the deal will be.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> We could indeed end up with no deal. We most certainly will if we walk away from the negotiations right now, as you and others have been recommending in the posts above.
> 
> It is instructive that when I ask what actions you would take the day after we leave on the Irish Border, the huge delays on the south coast, and on the status of citizens, there is no response whatsoever from the thread's leading proponents of 'No Deal'.


Regarding the Irish Border from what has been said over the last few days the Irish PM is preparing for a hard border as it is most likely inevitable (I have been reading the Irish Times). Status of citizen's rights didn't TM answer this yesterday? We are close to an agreement on this and EU citizen's are welcome to stay after Brexit. Let's see what the deal is on this TM said yesterday from what I remember hearing.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> From what has been said it is the British Press that have greatly exaggerated the deadlock.


Only way they can push the EU is a nasty bully. Harms the leave campaign if they do not. Then again nobody from the leave side is influenced by media as they've constantly stated before.



> There isn't very much time left to negotiate a trade deal as the EU want this finished by the Autumn of next year so the leaders can go back to their respective countries to agree or disagree on this.


Remember the trade deal and leave negotiations are not connected other than in the UK mindset. Legally they are separate and even require different acceptance procedures within the EU.



> Let's see what's offered because we still can walk away. But I will keep an open mind for now as to what the deal will be.


Well you will not get a say will you.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding the Irish Border from what has been said over the last few days the Irish PM is preparing for a hard border as it is most likely inevitable (I have been reading the Irish Times). Status of citizen's rights didn't TM answer this yesterday? We are close to an agreement on this and EU citizen's are welcome to stay after Brexit. Let's see what the deal is on this TM said yesterday from what I remember hearing.


My question was what you would do should we follow your advice and walk away, now, with no deal.

Under your scenario, there would be a hard border (which the Council and May reaffirmed today would not happen, unless there is no deal); and however close we might be to agreement on citizens' rights, we would not reach agreement because we are walking away with no deal.

My point was that No Deal would be stupid and practically impossible. So it's a good thing that May & co are not following the ill-thought-out advice of right wing Tories, anti-EU press and some people in this thread.

I think the point has now been made though, so I will drop it and thank you, at least, for responding.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> thank you, at least, for responding.


You're welcome


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

A pessimist will always fear the worst -


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> A pessimist will always fear the worst -


And an optimist will remain optimistic


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> And an optimist will remain optimistic


A bit like you n me


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

What is this, dictionary corner?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

And for some the glass is half empty whilst for others it’s half full. My glass is always empty because instead of worrying if it’s half full or half empty I got on and drank it.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Well this time next year we will all know if there is or isn't a deal as October 2018 is the EU's deadline to end the negotiations.

Remaining optimistic. On the 29th March 2019 (5 months after the EU's deadline to end the negotiations) we'll be out of the EU with or without a deal or transitional deal. 

It will be an interesting 12 months ahead.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> A pessimist will always fear the worst -


Well give me something concrete to be optimistic about. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese lol 
Cos I aint seeing anything besides hope & belief


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Still nothing actually factual to show any advantages to leaving. The glass is half full now means it's bad but not that bad rather than it's advantageous to the UK.


----------



## Guest (Oct 20, 2017)

And news from an EU country: Yesterday's article summarizing the negotiations from our side:

1) for EU brexit is just one of the many topics, for Brits a matter of life and death
2) We are all very unanimous about what we want and what are our terms
3) EU citizens rights are not negotiable, money is = trade deals are
4) There has been some progress, but not much (= Britain agreed it must respect it´s commitments)
5) Britain has no idea what it wants, there are so many different opinions and goals, that it is difficult to even discuss "British goals (= May + some others want soft brexit as that is less damaging for the economy, but hard liners like Boris want a hard brexit)
6) It will take a very long time for Britain to negotiate individual deals to replace EU deals. And it will have much less negotiation power than EU. WTO will not be much of a deal.
7) May has big problems, as in UK she needs to show she doesn´t make any concessions for hard liners, as her position is so weak but if she doesn´t, no deal will damage Britain seriously.
8) Just about only thing you can use as a bargaining tool is money. And that naturally is the opposite the British people were "promised". Falsefully, of course, but still promised.

Reading your posts I think facing the ugly truth is something many try to avoid. Pity, as now is the time to try to make best out of brexit, and soon EU will just move on. EU27 has already lots of other issues in agenda and brexit will not be our priority.

And how we see brexit and Britain now? Personally I think Britain used to be a cool, global nation, but now it became so much smaller, and instead of being global it became a bit like Trump´s America. What a shame.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MrsZee said:


> And news from an EU country: Yesterday's article summarizing the negotiations from our side:
> 
> 1) for EU brexit is just one of the many topics, for Brits a matter of life and death
> 2) We are all very unanimous about what we want and what are our terms
> ...


Thank you for that. Very interesting and not at all surprising.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Still nothing actually factual to show any advantages to leaving. The glass is half full now means it's bad but not that bad rather than it's advantageous to the UK.


We Take Back Control of whatever's left.

Whatever the price, it's worth it according to the minority in charge.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Heard that the EU are going to cap subsidises when we leave!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rona said:


> Heard that the EU are going to cap subsidises when we leave!


They'll have to as their income will be substantially reduced.


----------



## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> They'll have to as their income will be substantially reduced.


Maybe if this is true.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Honeys mum said:


> Maybe if this is true.


I don't believe either will collapse (well the eu might if others follow the UK). But it's unquestionable that the EU will have less money and need to tighten their belts or increase subs'.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> Heard that the EU are going to cap subsidises when we leave!


Why shouldn't they considering the UK was at the forefront of a small group in 2014 preventing it? Interestingly the EU rules allow member states to substantially cut CAP "basic payments" to large landowners by applying a ceiling. Nine countries do so according to the EU commission, including Britain which applies an upper limit in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It does not do so in England.

Sorry to dissapoint Dr Pepper and Honey's Mum, nothing to do with UK money although I know you are desparately trying to come up with things. They wanted to do so but UK stopped them, now UK is leaving they can. So much for the idea that the UK had no influence within the EU.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Why shouldn't they considering the UK was at the forefront of a small group in 2014 preventing it? Interestingly the EU rules allow member states to substantially cut CAP "basic payments" to large landowners by applying a ceiling. Nine countries do so according to the EU commission, including Britain which applies an upper limit in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It does not do so in England.
> 
> Sorry to dissapoint Dr Pepper and Honey's Mum, nothing to do with UK money although I know you are desparately trying to come up with things. They wanted to do so but UK stopped them, now UK is leaving they can. So much for the idea that the UK had no influence within the EU.


Nope, I'm not desperately trying to come up with anything, I don't need to. You on the other hand desperately try to convince yourself your own circumstances won't change post Brexit (which the uk support and have many times said they want expats rights to remain). The long and short of it is the eu have less money post Brexit, they either need to raise more from their members or make cut backs. It's not hard to understand.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> You on the other hand desperately try to convince yourself your own circumstances won't change post Brexit (which the uk support and have many times said they want expats rights to remain).


You really need to check things like long term residency in the EU. Not dependent on the UK being in the EU and will not change simply due to government whim.



> The long and short of it is the eu have less money post Brexit, they either need to raise more from their members or make cut backs. It's not hard to understand.


Sure they will after 2020 when they discuss the next monetary round. Before then May now agrees that the UK will hold to it's previous commitments.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> They'll have to as their income will be substantially reduced.


I don't think the French will be happy.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

rona said:


> I don't think the French will be happy.


They never are, no doubt they'll block the ports and Euro tunnel again.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> They never are,* no doubt they'll block the ports and Euro tunnel again.*


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> I don't think the French will be happy.


Are the french ever happy?


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Honeys mum said:


> Maybe if this is true.


Fortunately an unsubstantiated opinion doesn't gain any credence when it's got capital letters and a picture behind it.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

The choices for the EU are, indeed, to increase 'subs' and / or to decrease spending.

But a few figures for perspective ...

Total EU budget in 2017 is €157 bn (c. £142 bn)

(Total UK public spending in 2016 was £772 bn)

Our contribution to the EU (after the rebate) was £13 bn (1.7% of budget)

The EU spent £4.5 bn in the UK in 2016.

When we leave, the net loss to the EU, (based on those figures, which can go up and down a bit) was £8.5bn

Although the figures are significant, representing c.6% of their budget, they will probably not cause the collapse of the EU.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> The choices for the EU are, indeed, to increase 'subs' and / or to decrease spending.
> 
> But a few figures for perspective ...
> 
> ...


Guess they didn't expect the titanic to sink either.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> The choices for the EU are, indeed, to increase 'subs' and / or to decrease spending.
> 
> But a few figures for perspective ...
> 
> ...


So we only owe the EU £8.5bn which is a far cry from the €100bn the EU are asking. Makes TM's offer of £20bn generious. The reason why I have come to this conclusion is this, we are paying into thr EU's pot until 2020 as we are committed to until their next budget. If their net loss for us leaving is £8.5bn it is only fair we make this one off payment. We are not committed to pay into their budget after 2020 at the moment as no transitional deal has been agreed. So they still get money from us in 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 into their budget and if we get a transitional deal 2021 and 2022. Why should we pay €100bn up front when we can pay like we have been doing eg year on year until we leave?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Guess they didn't expect the titanic to sink either.


There's so many things wrong with that statement @DT.

Titanic was built in Belfast (Harland and Wolff shipyard, on Queen's Island, Belfast, Ireland) and set sail from Southampton on 10th April 1912 and sank on 15th April 1912, well before the first (1914 to 1918) and second world wars (1939 to 1945) where even dreamt of and long before the person who dreamt up the idea of the EC (Now the EU) scratched his head and put the idea down on paper. So I don't see what the significance is with the EU and the titanic sinking.

Sorry if I missed the joke.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> There's so many things wrong with that statement @DT.
> 
> Titanic was built in Belfast (Harland and Wolff shipyard, on Queen's Island, Belfast, Ireland) and set sail from Southampton on 10th April 1912 and sank on 15th April 1912, well before the first (1914 to 1918) and second world wars (1939 to 1945) where even dreamt of and long before the EU was even thought of. So I don't see what the significance is with the EU and the titanic sinking.
> 
> Sorry if I missed the joke.


Read fully what I quoted infact dont waste your time just read the last sentence


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Read fully what I quoted infact dont waste your time just read the last sentence


To early for me.
I'll sign off and come back later when I am a bit more awake.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> To early for me.
> I'll sign off and come back later when I am a bit more awake.


Duh! Lightweight
Here ya,go, ill made it easy for you!

The final sentence ￼of what I quoted I

Although the figures are significant, representing c.6% of their budget, they will probably not cause the collapse of theEU.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> So we only owe the EU £8.5bn which is a far cry from the €100bn the EU are asking. Makes TM's offer of £20bn generious. The reason why I have come to this conclusion is this, we are paying into thr EU's pot until 2020 as we are committed to until their next budget. If their net loss for us leaving is £8.5bn it is only fair we make this one off payment. We are not committed to pay into their budget after 2020 at the moment as no transitional deal has been agreed. So they still get money from us in 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 into their budget and if we get a transitional deal 2021 and 2022. Why should we pay €100bn up front when we can pay like we have been doing eg year on year until we leave?


Not that simple is it as people would know if they did some research rather than listen to media.

In 2013, the UK agreed to the EU's seven year budget plan, the 2014-20 Multiannual Financial Framework (MFF) so commited to spend a certain amount. Then there's the pension issue. Other commitments including the fact that Ireland received a financial assistance loan from the EU, which is expected to be repaid by 2042. This loan, and all other EU financial assistance loans are fully matched by EU borrowing. Does the UK have a share in that a liability? Wait.. does that mean the UK gets money back after the loan is paid off in 2040? That's just some of the examples.

Brexit bill can be seen as another example showing the simple fact that leaving is complicated and needs detailed planning rather gut feelings driving things. Details and facts are required.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Not that simple is it as people would know if they did some research rather than listen to media.
> 
> In 2013, the UK agreed to the EU's seven year budget plan, the 2014-20 Multiannual Financial Framework (MFF) so commited to spend a certain amount. Then there's the pension issue. Other commitments including the fact that Ireland received a financial assistance loan from the EU, which is expected to be repaid by 2042. This loan, and all other EU financial assistance loans are fully matched by EU borrowing. Does the UK have a share in that a liability? Wait.. does that mean the UK gets money back after the loan is paid off in 2040? That's just some of the examples.
> 
> Brexit bill can be seen as another example showing the simple fact that leaving is complicated and needs detailed planning rather gut feelings driving things. Details and facts are required.


That's why the bill is being examined line for line by our negotiators in the UK.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Not that simple is it as people would know if they did some research rather than listen to media.
> 
> In 2013, the UK agreed to the EU's seven year budget plan, the 2014-20 Multiannual Financial Framework (MFF) so commited to spend a certain amount. Then there's the pension issue. Other commitments including the fact that Ireland received a financial assistance loan from the EU, which is expected to be repaid by 2042. This loan, and all other EU financial assistance loans are fully matched by EU borrowing. Does the UK have a share in that a liability? Wait.. does that mean the UK gets money back after the loan is paid off in 2040? That's just some of the examples.
> 
> Brexit bill can be seen as another example showing the simple fact that leaving is complicated and needs detailed planning rather gut feelings driving things. Details and facts are required.


The Ireland loan is nothing to do with the UK as Northern Ireland is in the UK so didn't receive this loan, Ireland (The Republic) did. We contributed to the Loan given and from my understanding of loans this is paid in advance so nothing else is owed.

Money is owed to the UK as well you know from UK assets the EU have and use which are owned by the UK which needs to be paid by the EU.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Still an awful lot of money, approx £165 million per week, to be a member of a club that the majority don't want to be a member of


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> The Ireland loan is nothing to do with the UK as Northern Ireland is in the UK so didn't receive this loan, Ireland (The Republic) did. We contributed to the Loan given and from my understanding of loans this is paid in advance so nothing else is owed.


No, it's not paid in advance. EU "borrowed" with the UK commiting to actually be partly responsible for it. The fact it's not NI is not any part related.



> Money is owed to the UK as well you know from UK assets the EU have and use which are owned by the UK which needs to be paid by the EU.


So which parts are they then? When you join a golf club and pay membership, even when on the main comittee, if you leave you do not own part of the clubhouse.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> No, it's not paid in advance. EU "borrowed" with the UK commiting to actually be partly responsible for it. The fact it's not NI is not any part related.


Well that's a strange loan then because when you or I signup for a loan we read the terms sign the paper work and the loan is then given to you in cash to pay back in accordance to the terms. Never heard of a loan paid out differently to this way.

Let the UK negotiators sort it out as they are the ones who are going through the bill line by line.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

rona said:


> Still an awful lot of money, approx £165 million per week, to be a member of a club that the majority don't want to be a member of


What proof do you have of that majority? A referendum which was based on lies which shows only 37% of the population want to leave? Not a majority.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> So which parts are they then? When you join a golf club and pay membership, even when on the main comittee, if you leave you do not own part of the clubhouse.


Well the Government have hinted previously the EU owe the UK money for ehat I said. I am not getting into a slanging match over this.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Let the UK negotiators sort it out as they are the ones who are going through the bill line by line.


I agree but why shout out how unfair it all is when you do not even comprehend any of the details involved?



stockwellcat. said:


> Well the Government have hinted previously the EU owe the UK money for ehat I said. I am not getting into a slanging match over this.


In case you missed this.. The government, especially those pushing for leaving, lie a lot.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> I agree but why shout out how unfair it all is when you do not even comprehend any of the details involved?


But you can't either.
Unless they release what the real down of the bill is to the public there's no point is there.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> But you can't either.
> Unless they release what the real down of the bill is to the public there's no point is there.


I haven't. I've stated I believe things like the citizen rights should have been a slam dunk which, in my opinion they should have been. Both EU and UK should want to protect the rights of people contributing to the countries they are in. They should not be treated differently and should have their rights protected long term. Negotiations with a common goal should be the easiest.

Ireland.. well soft border was asking a lot wasn't it considering it's an international border to the Schengen Area. We'll still have to wait but by EU law it requires a hard border. UK government hasn't provided details to the public on how to achieve a soft border, only propaganda pretending it would all magically work and the EU were unreasonable not to accept it.

Brexit bill.. always going to be a tough one but nowhere near enough information being provided. Doubt details of any real settlement will be fully provided either.

I'm not stating government needs to abandon negotiations with "no deal" despite not seeming to know what "no deal" actually means and the damage it would do to the country.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> I haven't. I've stated I believe things like the citizen rights should have been a slam dunk which they should have been. Both EU and UK should want to protect the rights of people contributing to the countries they are in. They should not be treated differently and should have their rights protected.


I think both TM and Tusk have said they are close to agreeing on the Citizen's rights aspect of the negotiations. TM also said EU Citizen's living in the UK are welcome to stay after we lesve thr EU (the EU have not said the same yet though on UK citizen's living in the EU). Hopefully the next round of negotiations will see some movement on this issue in the way of an agreement on Citizen's rights. They must be close to finalising phase one as the EU said they aim to move onto phase 2 (trade talks) in December. Some issues like the financial aspect may well take longer to negotiate than originally anticipated.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> What proof do you have of that majority? A referendum which was based on lies which shows only 37% of the population want to leave? Not a majority.


But of those who could be 'bothered to vote 51.9% voted to leave whilst 48.1% voted to remain. And when I last looked it wasn't compulsory that people have to vote so you can manipulate the figures however you like the leave voters were the majority.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> No, it's not paid in advance. EU "borrowed" with the UK commiting to actually be partly responsible for it. The fact it's not NI is not any part related.
> 
> So which parts are they then? When you join a golf club and pay membership, even when on the main comittee, if you leave you do not own part of the clubhouse.


Very good analogy.

Also when you leave a golf club you are not expected to pay a random and extortionate fee to leave, just your subs for the remainder of your memberships. You also certainly wouhldn't be bound by their rules if a few of their members also played on your private course.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> I haven't. I've stated I believe things like the citizen rights should have been a slam dunk which, in my opinion they should have been. Both EU and UK should want to protect the rights of people contributing to the countries they are in. They should not be treated differently and should have their rights protected long term. Negotiations with a common goal should be the easiest.
> 
> Ireland.. well soft border was asking a lot wasn't it considering it's an international border to the Schengen Area. We'll still have to wait but by EU law it requires a hard border. UK government hasn't provided details to the public on how to achieve a soft border, only propaganda pretending it would all magically work and the EU were unreasonable not to accept it.
> 
> ...


Regarding the Irish border, from what has been said in the Irish press the PM in the Republic has mentioned they are preparing for a hard border and stated there would have to be 22 or 23 check points along the border line with Northern Ireland. This was mentioned in the last couple of weeks and the PM in the Republic seems resigned to the fact there may well be a hard border unless the Island of Ireland unites. But there has also been talk in Brussel's of giving Northern Ireland special consessions so they remain in the single market etc which would bend the EU's laws and rules. So again conflicting information is being sounded out in this.

We'll have to just wait and see what happens.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> I think both TM and Tusk have said they are close to agreeing on the Citizen's rights aspect of the negotiations. TM also said EU Citizen's living in the UK are welcome to stay after Brexit (the EU have not said the same yet though on UK citizen's living in the EU).


You see TM lost the opportunity months ago. No the EU hasn't said it, it's been individual countries who have stated UK citizens are welcome. Merkel certainly has. In fact in the UK while TM was pushing EU citizens are bargaining chips in the negotiations, Nicola Sturgeon was saying that EU citizens were appreciated and welcome in Scotland.



> They must be close to finalising phase one as the EU said they aim to move onto phase 2 (trade talks) in December. Some issues like the financial aspect may well take longer to negotiate than originally anticipated.


Wouldn't bet on phase 2 in December.. wait and see. No idea how much is to pressure May into giving up more for example, dangling carrot in "front". Can imagine the cartoon instead of carrot on a stick with a donkey have "trade talks" plaquard with a stick and TM being led. No idea of accuracy of that assumption but talking about politicians on both the UK and EU side.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Also when you leave a golf club you are not expected to pay a random and extortionate fee to leave, just your subs for the remainder of your memberships.


But it's not random, it a contract you signed commiting money to pay.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> But of those who could be 'bothered to vote 51.9% voted to leave whilst 48.1% voted to remain. And when I last looked it wasn't compulsory that people have to vote so you can manipulate the figures however you like the leave voters were the majority.


Other polls have shown the opposite. Referendum was non-binding so simply another poll.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Very good analogy.
> 
> Also when you leave a golf club you are not expected to pay a random and extortionate fee to leave, just your subs for the remainder of your memberships. You also certainly wouhldn't be bound by their rules if a few of their members also played on your private course.


Duh! well what do you expect we always knew it was the corrupt club that made up the rules as it went a long


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Other polls have shown the opposite. Referendum was non-binding so simply another poll.


But the electoral website is factually correct so why look at polls. 51.9% (seventeen million four hundred and ten thousand and seven hundred and forty two people voted leave) voted leave so where did 37% come from.

The final national totals for the EU referendum were:

Remain - 16,141,241 (48.1%)
Leave - 17,410,742 (51.9%)
Total Electorate: 46,500,001

Turnout: 72.2%

Rejected Ballots: 25,359

https://www.electoralcommission.org...u-referendum/electorate-and-count-information

I still cannot see 37% above in those facts @Goblin.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Other polls have shown the opposite.


It is not polls we are interested in. Its the results


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> But the electoral website is factually correct so why look at polls. 51.9% voted leave so where did 37% come from.
> 
> The final national totals for the EU referendum were:
> 
> ...


Harldy the majority of the population is it. You need me to find an opinion poll which shows the opposite result?



DT said:


> It is not polls we are interested in. Its the results


Well I hope the damage the UK is currently suffering from interests you. It certainly doesn't everyone.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Harldy the majority of the population is it. You need me to find an opinion poll which shows the opposite result?


Cricky we are still on this from the other thread. We are leaving the EU matey. What do you think the negotiations are about?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Polls are usually the domain of the offended.
I don't need a poll, the result of the referendum was the result of the people voting, and more felt that an out vote was important enough to get off their arses to have their say. 
Those that didn't vote have no right to start bleating now, much like we are always told in General elections, if you've not voted you have no right to moan at what you get


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

rona said:


> Polls are usually the domain of the offended.
> I don't need a poll, the result of the referendum was the result of the people voting, and more felt that an out vote was important enough to get off their arses to have their say.
> Those that didn't vote have no right to start bleating now, much like we are always told in General elections, if you've not voted you have no right to moan at what you get


And those that spoiled their ballot sheets have no right to moan either.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

[QUOTE="Goblin, post: 1065007498, member: 1280644"

Well I hope the damage the UK is currently suffering from interests you. It certainly doesn't everyone.[/QUOTE]

. What an odd thing to say!
Did it never occur to you that those of us who voted leave did so because we believed that eventually the UK would become a much better place out of the EU.
we have been bombarded with facts and figures by so-called experts as to why we have voted wrong on why we should reverse the referendum. the truth of the matter is we won't know for a few years yet what the outcome will be FACT and that is the only one I'm interested in.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> But it's not random, it a contract you signed commiting money to pay.


Oh ok, so it's definitely a hundred billion we owe then? Wasn't that just a random number they dreamt up?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> Duh! well what do you expect we always knew it was the corrupt club that made up the rules as it went a long


Corrupt?

Would you like me to re-post the facts on that, or have you discovered new evidence to back up the accusation?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> But it's not random, it a contract you signed commiting money to pay.


I think the €100bn was plucked out of the air by the EU. Our Government have a duty to the UK tax payers to scrutinise this bill line for line and get it reduced. This is why Corbyn cannot be trusted as he would have just accepted the bill and anything else the EU would have offered or charged.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Did it never occur to you that those of us who voted leave did so because we believed that eventually the UK would become a much better place out of the EU..


Yet have been unwilling or unable to provide any real advantages to leaving based on facts and reality. You aren't able to explain how the UK will become a much better place out of the EU. The UK is already being affected by negatives and we haven't left yet. So called project fear is being shown to be the reality.



Dr Pepper said:


> Oh ok, so it's definitely a hundred billion we owe then? Wasn't that just a random number they dreamt up?


I've no idea. As far as I am aware neither party in the negotiations has listed the details. Rather than simply dismiss the idea however I previously agreed the UK needs to go through what is being asked for line by line. It's also interesting that media isn't asking if we get any of that money back at a later date which as I understand it, may be the case. Another interesting detail is that the bill would not be anywhere near as much if the pound wasn't so weak.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> I think the €100bn was plucked out of the air by the EU. Our Government have a duty to the UK tax payers to scrutinise this bill line for line and get it reduced. This is why Corbyn cannot be trusted as he would have just accepted the bill and anything else the EU would have offered or charged.


I doubt it was plucked out the air but there would be "optional" items in my opinion. That's what any sensible person would do when preparing for negotiations. Bid high and expect to be negotiated down rather than start low.

Edit: The financial times did some calculations which brought an upfront gross settlement demand to approximately €91bn-€113bn. Over a period of a decade or more, this would be reduced in net terms to roughly €55bn-€75bn as Britain received its share of EU spending and repaid EU loans. (Money paid back).

A group called the Bruegel think-tank estimates that Britain would make an upfront payment of €82bn-€109bn, which would net out to €42bn-€65bn over the long term.

So not simply the EU pulling numbers out of thin air.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Oh ok, so it's definitely a hundred billion we owe then? Wasn't that just a random number they dreamt up?


The €100 bn was a figure mentioned only in the FT. The EU have not quoted any such figure.

As @Goblin explained earlier, it includes monies promised (and already allocated), long-term liabilities such as pension payments to UK nationals employed by the EU, and a considerable amount tied up in loans for which we only become liable if the recipients default on their repayments.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The country would pay those liabilities whether we stay in or not surely.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> The country would pay those liabilities whether we stay in or not surely.


All money we would spend if we stayed in the EU. How much part of the "normal" payment I have no idea. Loans, liabilities normally would only be due if a recipient defaulted. However can you imagine the result if the EU suddenly called for the UK to pay in a few years if someone did default? Contractually the UK is not a part of the deal as a separate entity so UK could argue after leaving it didn't have to.

Let's put this into perspective.. The UK government once estimated that the single market brings in between GBP 31 billion and GBP 92 billion a year into the UK economy - or between 5 and 15 times the UK net contribution to the EU budget. So tell me is potential access to the single market worth actually negotiating and paying the bill or is it more important to dig heels in and cater for people running on media hype and anti-EU sentiment rather than the facts?


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

ThIs thread has become that thread.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Satori said:


> ThIs thread has become that thread.


Have to say it took longer than I thought it might though!


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Satori said:


> ThIs thread has become that thread.


I think rehashing arguments about the reasons people voted the way they did, or the validity of the result etc are a waste of finger flexing.

But the forward looking discussion is a valid and very important topic.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Satori said:


> ThIs thread has become that thread.


I wonder why


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> I wonder why


Maybe as people cannot validate reasons for leaving and damaging the country 

Similar reasoning to the deal/no deal argument. Those calling for no deal are unable to say why that would be a good idea and show lack of understanding of what it would mean and the damage it would cause.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Similar reasoning to the deal/no deal argument. Those calling for no deal are unable to say why that would be a good idea and show lack of understanding of what it would mean and the damage it would cause.


I told you my reasons but yet again you chose to ignore my reasons like in the last thread. There is no one answer why people would say no deal as everyone's opinion is different. Whilst on this subject every economists reasons are also different. It's like you are seeking one definitive answer when there isn't one single answer.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> And news from an EU country: Yesterday's article summarizing the negotiations from our side:
> 
> 1) for EU brexit is just one of the many topics, for Brits a matter of life and death
> 2) We are all very unanimous about what we want and what are our terms
> ...


Thank you for sharing this Mrs Zee xx As Arnie says, its really interesting though not at all surprising.

The tories are trying to keep us in the dark - they refuse to release the 50+ impact studies they had done. If everything was going to be fine & dandy - why would that be?

.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> Guess they didn't expect the titanic to sink either.


Brexiters logic. (sorry I couldn't resist)


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Brexiters logic. (sorry I couldn't resist)


What would you do @noushka05?
No life boats left. 
Jump and freeze to death or stay on board and drown?


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Maybe as people cannot validate reasons for leaving and damaging the country
> 
> Similar reasoning to the deal/no deal argument. Those calling for no deal are unable to say why that would be a good idea and show lack of understanding of what it would mean and the damage it would cause.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


>


This may as well be the only response from now on, none of them are interested in other opinions or even links and "facts" (as much as their facts) just spouting


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

rona said:


> none of them are interested in other opinions


Nice.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> What would you do @noushka05?
> No life boats left.
> Jump and freeze to death or stay on board and drown?


If I may butt in ...

I'd mend the hole.

Kobayashi maru.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If the Tories want to block a ban that the Eu wants, they would have done it in the Eu, which would be worse. Farmers and individuals don’t have to use them, just because they aren’t banned. People and corporations need to take responsibility for their own actions, not blame government for everything.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Even Theresa May has finally admitted brexit is in trouble.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...u-council-juncker-merkel-macron-a8009971.html


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> If I may butt in ...
> 
> I'd mend the hole.
> 
> Kobayashi maru.


You wouldn't realistically have time the ship is about to sink that picture @noudhka05 published is the final moments of the Titanic sinking.

If you are referring to the EU, I am not bothering trying to explain as it is a waste of time as you aren't interested what leavers have to say, @Goblin has made that very clear by ignoring everything everyone says by repetitively repeating his same questions over and over again.  Everyone has a different opinion and different reason why they voted the way they did etc there is no one single answer. Even economists are disagreeing with one another.

So if you want am answer remainers accept what you have been told.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> This may as well be the only response from now on, none of them are interested in other opinions or even links and "facts" (as much as their facts) just spouting


I'm only interested in evidence. I know the consensual position of experts across board - so I'm personally not interested in the opinion of a tiny minority of experts who say we'll be better off leaving the EU.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Please watch this interview with the former head of the WTO that James O'Brien is talking about: "Being on WTO rules will be worse"
*
What Would A No-Deal Brexit Would Look Like? We Asked A Former WTO Chief*

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/the-news-explained/former-wto-chief-explains-no-deal-brexit/

A group of Conservative MPs are urging Theresa May to walk away from talks with the European Union and leave without a deal. But what would that look like?

*What would being on WTO rules actually mean?*

If you look at the way people trade, you have basically two options. The WTO option is the one-size-fits-all option, a multi-lateral trade regime which almost all countries on the planet have accepted. It's about tariffs

With no trade deal, Britain would trade with the rest of the world on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules.

We asked *Pascal Lamy*, the Former General Director of the WTO what that would mean

*What would being on WTO rules actually mean?*

If you look at the way people trade, you have basically two options. The WTO option is the one-size-fits-all option, a multi-lateral trade regime which almost all countries on the planet have accepted. It's about tariffs

Then, more open than the WTO is a bilateral agreement, like the EU with Japan or India or Canada.

And then you have a special open plus plus plus system, which is the EU internal market.

So level playing field WTO, more open bilateral, even more open EU regime. The UK is exiting the EU, so it's a choice between the WTO or a better-than-WTO regime.

For example, on WTO rules, there is a 10% tariff on cars. You can have a bi-lateral agreement where you have a 0% tariff, which would obviously be better. That would be true for cheese, for lamb, for whisky, for anything.

*What would happen if the UK goes on WTO rules?*

The WTO rules are definitely second-best, or to be precise, the second-worst.

Going on to WTO rules is not the end of the world, but more costly trade, meaning less jobs

*How many countries use WTO rules?*

WTO rules are used by everybody. The WTO has 150 members but is not a uniform system, so some countries have agreed deals to have different tariffs. But it is the system that exists and the system we can rely on.

It is not as good as the UK's current system. It's not the end of the world, but it just makes life more complex

*How do you foresee Britain's trading prospects post-Brexit?*

The UK will have to renegotiate the deals which they already have with 60-80 countries which are better than the WTO regime - these are the bi-lateral deals the EU has with these countries.

This, of course, will take time.

And it's not certain that the UK will get the same deal that the EU has with these countries.

If I'm Japan, my bi-lateral agreement with the EU is for trade with a 500million consumer market. If I negotiate with the UK, a 65million consumer market, I'm not going to pay the same price.

So the capacity to negotiate as a single country, the deal will be not as good as the EU deal.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> *I'm only interested in evidence.* I know the consensual position of experts across board - so I'm personally not interested in the opinion of a tiny minority of experts who say we'll be better off leaving the EU.


The evidence and facts currently are:

we voted as a whole in the UK to leave the EU,
the Government agreed to up hold the referendum result and trigger article 50,
we are negotiating to leave the EU and will be leaving the EU on or before the 29th March 2019 with or without some kind of deal.
What other facts and evidence do you want?


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> I'm only interested in evidence. I know the consensual position of experts across board - so I'm personally not interested in the opinion of a tiny minority of experts who say we'll be better off leaving the EU.


Of course you are not interested in the "experts" that agree with leavers
You are only interested in the scare mongering "experts" that have you and others right under their thumbs to agree with what they say

Put all the rubbish you want on here but you will never achieve your goal


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> You wouldn't realistically have time the ship is about to sink that picture @noudhka05 published is the final moments of the Titanic sinking.
> 
> If you are referring to the EU, I am not bothering trying to explain as it is a waste of time as you aren't interested what leavers have to say, @Goblin has made that very clear by ignoring everything everyone says by repetitively repeating his same questions over and over again.  Everyone has a different opinion and different reason why they voted the way they did etc there is no one single answer. Even economists are disagreeing with one another.
> 
> So if you want am answer remainers accept what you have been told.


Talking about repeating themselves here's a interesting fact.

@Goblin has stated "it was only an opinion poll" 48 times 

What troubles me more is I did a search to find that out


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Talking about repeating themselves here's a interesting fact.
> 
> @Goblin has stated "it was only an opinion poll" 48 times
> 
> What troubles me more is I did a search to find that out


I knew he had asked the same questions alot, but saying the referendum was an opinion poll 48 times . Doesn't that roughly equal the percentage of people that voted remain on referendum day?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Yet another leave voter sees the light.

Thread.

No love for the EU Institutions, but Leavers like me need to accept #*Brexit* isn't going well and has potential for catastrophe.
*1,134* Retweets *2,111* Likes

It'll be alright on the night' won't wash. Entire sectors and millions of livelihoods are at stake.

No one who loses their job will give a monkeys about the ECJ and the budget. This is obvious but apparently escapes some Leavers.

Unless there's a dramatic change of course - EEA/SM/CU/Euratom, no one with a grasp of reality can continue to support Leave

Anyone who wants something in politics 'at any cost' may as well just join the Taliban. Too many Leavers are sounding like that.

So I'm out. I cannot support destroying an economy we've spent 40 years building


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> you aren't interested what leavers have to say


Nice


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Pascal Lamy summary of what brexit talks are all about.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Bisbow said:


> Of course you are not interested in the "experts" that agree with leavers
> You are only interested in the scare mongering "experts" that have you and others right under their thumbs to agree with what they say
> 
> Put all the rubbish you want on here but you will never achieve your goal


Why are your experts always right, and those Noush' chooses to believe, scaremongers and always wrong? 

Genuine question, by the way, I'm not simply sh1t stirring.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Why are your experts always right, and those Noush' chooses to believe, scaremongers and always wrong?
> 
> Genuine question, by the way, I'm not simply sh1t stirring.


I am not saying they are always right often they are wrong
But Noush thinks hers are and have been proved wrong more than once but she will not admit it


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> I told you my reasons but yet again you chose to ignore my reasons like in the last thread. There is no one answer why people would say no deal as everyone's opinion is different. Whilst on this subject every economists reasons are also different. It's like you are seeking one definitive answer when there isn't one single answer.


You did several times. You repeated the lies of the leave campaign (not that they infuenced you at all) and evidence was provided showing it false. You chose not to actually support your reasoning based on facts.



stockwellcat. said:


> The evidence and facts currently are:
> 
> we voted as a whole in the UK to leave the EU,
> the Government agreed to up hold the referendum result and trigger article 50,
> ...


Ah so, we won a non-binding referendum.. Government doesn't care about damaging the country and it's population. That's the evidence as to advantages of leaving. Great going. Only one person has provided any possible advantage and that was on a single issue on animal welfare despite the fact the majority of animal welfare groups want to stay in the EU.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> I am not saying they are always right often they are wrong
> But Noush thinks hers are and have been proved wrong more than once but she will not admit it


Please provide evidence that my experts have been proved wrong more that once? I always admit when I'm wrong.

Our economy is tanking, inflation rising. Environmental protections are being stripped back. Our NHS is suffering directly due to brexit. The experts I trusted were bang on. And things will get so much worse if we're dragged out.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Please provide evidence that my experts have been proved wrong more that once? I always admit when I'm wrong.
> 
> Our economy is tanking, inflation rising. Environmental protections are being stripped back. Our NHS is suffering directly due to brexit. The experts I trusted were bang on. And things will get so much worse if we're dragged out.


I think I'd have to hear a definition of 'tanking' before I gave that one a 'like'!


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> *Ah so, we won a non-binding referendum*..


@Dr Pepper 49 times now


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> You did several times. You repeated the lies of the leave campaign (not that they infuenced you at all) and evidence was provided showing it false. You chose not to actually support your reasoning based on facts.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> @Dr Pepper 49 times now


Ohhh, "non binding referendum" 71 times, honestly thought "opinion poll" would have won.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Ohhh, "non binding referendum" 71 times, honestly thought "opinion poll" would have won.


:Hilarious


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Well when it's factual... Maybe when you can explain using facts why no deal you were pushing for is a good deal you can repeat it


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Even economists are disagreeing with one another.


I think the vast majority on the leave side of the discussion (a minority) are agreeing that brexit they envisaged is not the brexit happening.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Goblin said:


> I think the vast majority on the leave side of the discussion (a minority) are agreeing that brexit they envisaged is not the brexit happening.


Really.
Oh.
How did you come to that assumption?

Before you start.

Tell me why those economists on the leave are wrong and those on the remain side are right? What makes you think this? They are economists and according to remainers are very factual and cannot lie and are always right.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Well when it's factual... Maybe when you can explain using facts why no deal you were pushing for is a good deal you can repeat it


What are you on about


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Please provide evidence that my experts have been proved wrong more that once? I always admit when I'm wrong.
> 
> Our economy is tanking, inflation rising. Environmental protections are being stripped back. Our NHS is suffering directly due to brexit. The experts I trusted were bang on. And things will get so much worse if we're dragged out.


If you think I am trolling all through your threads and rubbish again you can think again. I don't have that amount of time to spare
You know as well as I do not all your experts are infallible

I thought you were out of this thread anyway or have you finally run out of negatives


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> I think I'd have to hear a definition of 'tanking' before I gave that one a 'like'!


OK. Anything for a like

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...-an-economy-sacrificed-at-the-altar-of-brexit


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> If you think I am trolling all through your threads and rubbish again you can think again. I don't have that amount of time to spare
> You know as well as I do not all your experts are infallible
> 
> I thought you were out of this thread anyway or have you finally run out of negatives


How convenient...................


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Who could blame them.
*
Share of European Union staff leaving NHS rises following Brexit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41556997*


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Something tells me that the divisions caused in the UK by this Brexit thing are going to take a very long time to heal.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Something tells me that the divisions caused in the UK by this Brexit thing are going to take a very long time to heal.


Na, venture out into the real world and you won't find much, if any, division at all.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> Something tells me that the divisions caused in the UK by this Brexit thing are going to take a very long time to heal.


In the real world people are just getting on with life. Personally I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary, no divisions etc.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

[QUOTE="stockwellcat., post: 1065007760, member: 1461195"*]In the real world people are just getting on with life.* Personally I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary, no divisions etc.[/QUOTE]

May be, but we don't have to like the future problems that's are going to affect our lives.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

(Quote removed by LinznMilly)

Its not very nice to be accused of something Bisbow. I knew you couldn't back it up with proof - hence the sarcasm. 

You don't have to look hard to find negatives to brexit, if you could look objectively you too would see that.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> Something tells me that the divisions caused in the UK by this Brexit thing are going to take a very long time to heal.


I think they're going to get worse. I don't think the younger generation will ever forgive the older generation tbh.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Na, venture out into the real world and you won't find much, if any, division at all.





stockwellcat. said:


> In the real world people are just getting on with life. Personally I have not noticed anything out of the ordinary, no divisions etc.


Do you discuss Brexit with people in the real world? Or is it something of a taboo subject?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I think they're going to get worse. I don't think the younger generation will ever forgive the older generation tbh.


Well going off how long people live on the male side of my family I am going to enjoy at least 25 years of the UK being out of the EU before I kick the bucket.

The youngsters won't know what it was like being in the EU as it will be a distant memory by then or they would have grown up in the post EU period when the UK is standing on it's own. The EU might not be around then. Free movement on the continenent may end. Who knows what the future will look like.

I don't see what there is to forgive.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Bisbow said:


> I am not saying they are always right often they are wrong
> But Noush thinks hers are and have been proved wrong more than once but she will not admit it


So, if all the experts have been proven to be wrong, why listen to any of them.

However, aren't we supposed to sit up and take notice, even if what they have to tell us is unfavourable to our ideals, and not just those who appeal to our utopian senses and way of life?

I would rather the experts be brutally honest with me and tell me the truth, perhaps something I didn't want to hear, than have them tell me lies and mislead me into great disillusionment.

The earth is round, (we've seen it from space) yet some would have us believe it's completely flat. 
They would also have us believe it's only 2000 years old, despite geology telling us it's much, much older, and climate change is happening before our very eyes. We would, of course, see it for ourselves if we did but look, yet there are those amongst us who would readily dismiss the facts as utter nonsense and so many turn to look the other way.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> Do you discuss Brexit with people in the real world? Or is it something of a taboo subject?


Certainly not taboo  Just if it is mentioned it's a rather short and cursory conversation. It's just not a biggie, most people (and it really is most) have accepted it's happening and getting on with their business and letting the government get on with theirs.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Well going off how long people live on the male side of my family I am going to enjoy at least 25 years of the UK being out of the EU before I kick the bucket.
> 
> The youngsters won't know what it was like being in the EU as it will be a distant memory by then or they would have grown up in the post EU period when the UK is standing on it's own. The EU might not be around then. Who knows what the future will look like.


Many will remember all the benefits the EU gave us. They won't forget.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Right I have a serious question.

Remainers how come whenever I post something or other leave supporters post something you fire back almost instantly either with loads of youtube clips or trash off the newspapers and so called experts? 

Do your Iphones, Android phones, Laptops, ipads or computers come preloaded with this stuff? If it does I'd be taking it back from the shop I purchased it from demanding a refund :Hilarious


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Many will remember all the benefits the EU gave us. They won't forget.


Regarding forgiveness @noushka05 those that voted not to join the EC forgave those that took the UK into the EC. It will happen whem they see what it is like to be outside of the EU. Time is a good healer.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Right I have a serious question.
> 
> Remainers how come whenever I post something or other leave supporters post something you fire back almost instantly either with loads of youtube clips or trash off the newspapers and so called experts?
> 
> Do your Iphones, Android phones, Laptops, ipads or computers come preloaded with this stuff? If it does I'd be taking it back from the shop I purchased it from demanding a refund :Hilarious


It is odd how they always seem to have all these things to hand. Frankly I can't be bothered to search out other people's opinions to reinforce my own. I know what I think and why I think it and that's good enough for little ol' me. To be honest I stopped looking into the pro's and con's of Brexit in June 2016.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Regarding forgiveness @noushka05 those that voted not to join the EC forgave those that took the UK into the EC. It will happen whem they see what it is like to be outside of the EU. Time is a good healer.


Before membership we were the poor man of Western Europe - joining gave us prosperity & opened doors. We are regressing to whence we came. Many young people don't want an insular uk - they embrace the European Union. Please listen to the video - it might give you a better insight into how many young people are feeling.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> *It is odd how they always seem to have all these things to hand.* Frankly I can't be bothered so search out other people's opinions to reinforce my own. I know what I think and why I think it and that's good enough for little ol' me. To be honest I stopped looking into the pro's and con's of Brexit in June 2016.


It's making me wonder if there is a bot at play here on pf disguished as users with how quickly the responses come back with all these youtube, newspaper articles and what so called experts are saying. It does seem very odd.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Its not very nice to be accused of something Bisbow. I knew you couldn't back it up with proof - hence the sarcasm.
> 
> You don't have to look hard to find negatives to brexit, if you could look objectively you too would see that.


No, it is not very nice being accused of something as we leavers very well know after all that we have been accused of, or is it only remainers are allowed to cast accusations

How on earth did we manage
to survive before the EU, it must be a miracle


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Before membership we were the poor man of Western Europe - joining gave us prosperity & opened doors. We are regressing to whence we came. Many young people don't want an insular uk - they embrace the European Union. Please listen to the video - it might give you a better insight into how many young people are feeling.


Before the EC @noushka05 the world had 2 world wars, the continenent was in turmoil, there was civil wars in several countries on the continenent, the world was on the brink of a 3rd world war, Europe as we know it today was in chaos, they where rebuilding the continenent and had no money and the countries alot poorer than the UK. To say the UK was worse off or poorer I think is a bit wrong as everyone was around the world.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> Right I have a serious question.
> 
> Remainers, do your Iphones, Android phones, Laptops, ipads or computers come preloaded with this stuff? If it does I'd be taking it back from the shop I purchased it from demanding a refund :Hilarious


Mine came with a 8Ull5hit alert application. It has proven very reliable too.:Smuggrin

Yours

An 'unvoter'


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

EU
Extremely useless


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> No, it is not very nice being accused of something as we leavers very well know after all that we have been accused of, or is it only remainers are allowed to cast accusations
> 
> How on earth did we manage
> to survive before the EU, it must be a miracle


You are making it personal, not me Bisbow.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Satori said:


> ThIs thread has become that thread.


Are you suggesting that thread has become this thread


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Before the EC @noushka05 the world had 2 world wars, the continenent was in turmoil, there was civil wars in several countries on the continenent, the world was on the brink of a 3rd world war, Europe as we know it today was in chaos, they where rebuilding the continenent and had no money and the countries alot poorer than the UK. To say the UK was worse off or poorer I think is a bit wrong as everyone was around the world.


Its the truth - we were the poor man of Europe & we will be again, thanks to brexit. We were also known as the 'dirty man of Europe'. And we'll hold that title again soon too.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> You are making it personal, not me Bisbow.


No more personal than you have, equal measures I think


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> No more personal than you have, equal measures I think


I have been posting evidence, I haven't once attacked you personally. My posts are there for all to see - as are yours.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Before the EC the world had 2 world wars, the continenent was in turmoil, there was civil wars in several countries on the continenent, the world was on the brink of a 3rd world war, Europe as we know it today was in chaos, they where rebuilding the continenent and had no money and the countries alot poorer than the UK. To say the UK was worse off or poorer I think is a bit wrong as everyone was around the world.


An eloquent reminder of the how much better the EU has made things. Thank you.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Its the truth - we were the poor man of Europe & we will be again, thanks to brexit. We were also known as the 'dirty man of Europe'. And we'll hold that title again soon too.


Your graph is very deceptive as it misses out when Labour was in power in the 1990's and the stock market crash and the banking crash.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> An eloquent reminder of the how much better the EU has made things. Thank you.


The EU didn't exist until the 1990's. You mean the United Nations (UN). You're getting confused. The UN has stopped anymore wars on the continenent not the EU.

1. The United Nations is an intergovernmental organization tasked to promote international co-operation and to create and maintain international order.

2. The European Union is a political and economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

IMPORTANT THREAD >

1/ So what did the 27 EU leaders say about Brexit in their summit room? And what does it mean for talks?


2/ Once summit conclusions were agreed (90 secs) the main question was Theresa May, her weakness and whether she deserved help

3/ The notetakers were sent out. This was as sensitive as a summit gets - a leader's life-expectancy and what follows if they're toppled

4/ It was arguably one of the most interesting political debates on Brexit among the 27 since the referendum

5/ Three or four leaders advocated lending May a helping hand - or at least not pushing her to breaking point

6/ To them she was the best prime minister on offer (cf Boris) and the best hope of a smooth and orderly Brexit

7/ Others were reluctant to be drawn into the vortex of Westminster. The days of EU being used to resolve Tory party wars were over


8/ Angela Merkel of Germany was among those supporting a more cautious approach and the divorce-first sequence to negotiations

9/ The chancellor also questioned how we would know something had *changed* on Brexit day if there was a standstill transition
10/ Michel Barnier ended the discussion by raising the option (again) of using transition talks to help close a divorce deal

11/ But as chief negotiator he stressed he was in the hands of the leaders


12/ And the consensus still appeared for a clearly phased approach. May had not yet done enough.

13/ That suggests it is for the UK to move next on a financial settlement. The talk is of another E30bn or so. That will be painful

14/ But the more positive EU tone suggests they are ready to help May in the final stretch of a deal, if she moves first


15/ How would that work? There are three main options.

16/ One is for divorce talks to continue in parallel with the EU's prep work on transition/trade. By Dec, the two sides could jump at once
17/ Option2 is a conditional offer: UK will pay RAL (30bn) but tie details to transition terms. That might open transition talks before Dec


18/ Option three is the hard way: forcing a crisis in November, then trying to patch it up. High risk.

19/ We're entering a crucial few weeks in the Brexit story. But we've not even reached the hard part: the future relationship.
20/ Just think of the UK cabinet discussion when sufficient progress is made and the EU say: congrats! Now what do you want


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

[QUOTE


noushka05 said:


> I have been posting evidence, I haven't once attacked you personally. My posts are there for all to see - as are yours.


You have, me and every other leave voter, you have attacked us all and that includes me, or did you kindly leave me out


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sorry noush me little friend, but I'm laffing that much now I think my toes fell off, honestly, love you loads but dunno where you are digging it up from
 Omg, omg, you never! You stole my morphine didn't ya:Couchpotato


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Bisbow said:


> [QUOTE
> 
> You have, me and every other leave voter, you have attacked us all and that includes me, or did you kindly leave me out


Think what we need to do it keep it on this thread, be as mean as we like here but don't take it elsewhere,
And noush is a lover not a hater xx


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> Your graph is very deceptive as it misses out when Labour was in power in the 1990's and the stock market crash and the banking crash.


My mistake - we were known as the 'sick man of europe'.
https://www.economist.com/blogs/but...n/AP/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatch


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> My mistake - we were known as the 'sick man of europe'.
> https://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/07/1970s-show?cid1=cust/ddnew/n/n/n/20170719n/owned/n/n/nwl/n/n/AP/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatch


I hate to think what they call Greece then? Two massive bale outs from the EU. The UK has had no bail outs from the EU.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> My mistake - we were known as the 'sick man of europe'.
> https://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/07/1970s-show?cid1=cust/ddnew/n/n/n/20170719n/owned/n/n/nwl/n/n/AP/Daily_Dispatch/email&etear=dailydispatch


Sick as in poorly or sick as in deranged


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> I hate to think what they call Greece then? Two massive bale outs from the EU. The UK has had no bail outs from the EU.


I actually feel sorry for the Greeks, such lovely people, but seriously what do the have apart from the sunshine and olive oil


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DT said:


> Sorry noush me little friend, but I'm laffing that much now I think my toes fell off, honestly, love you loads but dunno where you are digging it up from
> Omg, omg, you never! You stole my morphine didn't ya:Couchpotato


:Hilarious you nutter

I could do with a shot of morphine thats for sure


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> I actually feel sorry for the Greeks, such lovely people, but seriously what do the have apart from the sunshine and olive oil


Lots of migrants.

I feel sorry for the Greeks to.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> We were also known as the 'dirty man of Europe'. And we'll hold that title again soon too.


I'm glad you raised this one up, Noush', it's been something I've wanted to bring up for ages but never found the right opportunity.

However, I believe the ottoman empire was once known as the 'sick man' of Europe. That title will no doubt be handed on to the UK once the thieving Tories flog off the NHS.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Lots of migrants.
> 
> I feel sorry for the Greeks to.


All wanting to leave!


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> The EU didn't exist until the 1990's. You mean the United Nations (UN). You're getting confused. The UN has stopped anymore wars on the continenent not the EU.
> 
> 1. The United Nations is an intergovernmental organization tasked to promote international co-operation and to create and maintain international order.
> 
> 2. The European Union is a political and economic union of 28 member states that are located primarily in Europe.


I won't post any links or anything, but I assure you I am not confused.

But I find it peculiar that only people in the UK think that the EU, and its forerunners, have not been a considerable influence for peace over the last 60 years or so.

Hence its Nobel Peace prize in 2012.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Lots of migrants.
> 
> I feel sorry for the Greeks to.


Which brings me back to when it all stArted, 
The harrowing picture of the poor little boy washed up on the beach in Greece, seemingly a victim from one of the many boats making that hazardous journey fleeing persecution and war. Remember those images and how the press portrayed them? Hard to forget, it was the turning point wasn't it.
But then we get the truth, the father was already safe and secure he was nothing short of a people smuggler. He was responsible for that little boy's death, what happened to him by the way?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> I won't post any links or anything, but I assure you I am not confused.
> 
> But I find it peculiar that only people in the UK think that the EU, and its forerunners, have not been a considerable influence for peace over the last 60 years or so.
> 
> Hence its Nobel Peace prize in 2012.


is t Merkal down for one too?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

DT said:


> Which brings me back to when it all stArted,
> The harrowing picture of the poor little boy washed up on the beach in Greece, seemingly a victim from one of the many boats making that hazardous journey fleeing persecution and war. Remember those images and how the press portrayed them? Hard to forget, it was the turning point wasn't it.
> But then we get the truth, the father was already safe and secure he was nothing short of a people smuggler. He was responsible for that little boy's death, what happened to him by the way?


That was really sad. I remember the little dead boy in the rescuers arms 

I don't know what happened to the smuggler, but they are still attempting to come over to Greece, Spain and Italy today.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> I hate to think what they call Greece then? Two massive bale outs from the EU. The UK has had no bail outs from the EU.


The UK, when it was the sick man of Europe, was bailed out by the IMF in 1976. The 'EU' - the EEC back then, I think, had no centralised funds at the time.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> That was really sad. I remember the little dead boy in the rescuers arms
> 
> I don't know what happened to the smuggler, but they are still attempting to come over to Greece, Spain and Italy today.


But that was my point, he wasn't on his way here, that little boy had been safe in Greece for two years, it was the way the gutter trash twisted that harrowing picture


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> is t Merkal down for one too?


I don't know. I don't think the Nobel committee make the candidates' names public; only the winners.

But I think the correct spelling is 'Merkel'.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

DT said:


> Think what we need to do it keep it on this thread, be as mean as we like here but don't take it elsewhere,
> And noush is a lover not a hater xx


I have nothing against noush as a person, She seems compassionate about her family and animals, I just disagree with some of her ideas and the fact she seems to think all leavers are deranged in some way
That I dislike


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

In all honesty I give up.

We are leaving the EU and that is all I care about, we can debate if's, but's and maybe's until kingdom come but I stopped worrying way back. I look forward to the future not the past. The UK will not be in the EU soon and that to me is an achievement and we will succeed outside of the EU with or without a deal with the EU preferably in my opinion without a deal so we aren't tied one way or the other to the EU.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Isn’t trade going global whether we like it or not? I saw an ad on tv last night for a website where I can buy a new pair of prescription specs, with scratch and glare resistant lenses for £6. We sell our products all over the world through the www. What do I need closed trade deals within the Eu for?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Elles said:


> Isn't trade going global whether we like it or not? I saw an ad on tv last night for a website where I can buy a new pair of prescription specs, with scratch and glare resistant lenses for £6. We sell our products all over the world through the www. What do I need closed trade deals within the Eu for?


The internet is a useful place for global trade.


----------



## Guest (Oct 21, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Lots of migrants. I feel sorry for the Greeks to.





DT said:


> All wanting to leave!


Well, sorry to disagree with you both but the Greek economy has improved and is growing faster than UK´s. The fact that EU poured money to save them is something all serious politicians are pretty grateful, even when it meant that people did suffer. But the country didn´t collapse, as it would have done without EU.

The news is just much better now for Greek, but naturally it will take a long time to get the economy working. But the worst is over. (and if some one doesn´t believe me, here is a link. ) And looks like the immigrants was not the "main topic" in Greece, like you suggested. Why was that By the way?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/24/alexis-tsipras-the-worst-is-clearly-behind-us


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Bisbow said:


> [QUOTE
> 
> You have, me and every other leave voter, you have attacked us all and that includes me, or did you kindly leave me out


I haven't attacked anyone personally, but I can't help it that you have taken my posts personally. All I have been doing is posting information and sometimes giving an opinion based on it. You have targeted me personally.



stockwellcat. said:


> I hate to think what they call Greece then? Two massive bale outs from the EU. The UK has had no bail outs from the EU.


*Even Greece's economy is now growing faster than the UK*

http://uk.businessinsider.com/greek...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


DT said:


> Sick as in poorly or sick as in deranged


Both I expect



Zaros said:


> I'm glad you raised this one up, Noush', it's been something I've wanted to bring up for ages but never found the right opportunity.
> 
> However, I believe the ottoman empire was once known as the 'sick man' of Europe. That title will no doubt be handed on to the UK once the thieving Tories flog off the NHS.


It certainly will - and sooner than many realise. The tories have ripped the heart out of it. Our NHS is in its death throes now - its on the verge of collapse.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Arnie83 said:


> The UK, when it was the sick man of Europe, was bailed out by the IMF in 1976. The 'EU' - the EEC back then, I think, had no centralised funds at the time.


That was the EC not the EU but we paid that off, if it is true. The EU did not exist until 1990's.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> The tories have ripped the heart out of it. Our NHS is in its death throes now - its on the verge of collapse.


It would appear the Tories are not content with just tearing the NHS apart, they've targeted the entire bloody country. It's not the first time they've done it either.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> I haven't attacked anyone personally, but I can't help it that you have taken my posts personally. All I have been doing is posting information and sometimes giving an opinion based on it. *You have targeted me personally.*.


And to the outsider looking in, Noush', I'm afraid that's exactly what it looks like.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I haven't attacked anyone personally, but I can't help it that you have taken my posts personally. All I have been doing is posting information and sometimes giving an opinion based on it. You have targeted me personally.
> 
> *Even Greece's economy is now growing faster than the UK*
> 
> ...


But didn't we clarify noush on my toe thread that the rot had set in well before the tories we elected? My A&E certainly- and didn't someone post a,link that there were 32,000 less hospital beds under Labour?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Bisbow said:


> I have nothing against noush as a person, She seems compassionate about her family and animals, I just disagree with some of her ideas and the fact she seems to think all leavers are deranged in some way
> That I dislike


Well I guess she's basing everyone on me she knows I am


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> That was the EC not the EU but we paid that off, if it is true. The EU did not exist until 1990's.


Yes; that's why I said "the EEC back then".

And what do you mean "if it is true"!?!

For heaven's sake, if you don't believe what I write on here, LOOK IT UP!


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Really.
> Oh.
> How did you come to that assumption?
> 
> ...


Well you can start with 80% vs 20% of economists are against leaving. What do the 20% know which the 80% do not. You can start with economists who support brexit saying it's not going the way it needs to in interviews. I can start by pointing out the flaws and the missing information in the economist links you provide in an attempt to support leaving.



Dr Pepper said:


> What are you on about





stockwellcat. said:


> It's making me wonder if there is a bot at play here on pf disguished as users with how quickly the responses come back with all these youtube, newspaper articles and what so called experts are saying. It does seem very odd.


I find it interesting that when people don't have arguments about the topic they revert to the people posting information.



Arnie83 said:


> Something tells me that the divisions caused in the UK by this Brexit thing are going to take a very long time to heal.


It's not simply people who voted leave or remain. It's more the prejudices it has strengthened which are a danger.



Elles said:


> Isn't trade going global whether we like it or not? I saw an ad on tv last night for a website where I can buy a new pair of prescription specs, with scratch and glare resistant lenses for £6. We sell our products all over the world through the www. What do I need closed trade deals within the Eu for?


Did you read http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128 as an introduction from leave supporters? Have you considered the impact things like Bombadier to the UK car industry for example?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Look the attacks from remainers simply go over my head. I am not and do not have to defend myself for voting leave. Have a problem with that, well tough because I do not have to explain myself to you. The world is a big place and doesn't end or start with the EU.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Nope. The Uk car industry barely belongs to the uk and globally the car industry is changing.

People have always moaned about steel, motor and coal industry in the uk. While in Bulgaria they got with the times and went IT in Budapest instead.

I care not one jot about how the animal produce industry will be affected. Badly, if anything, I hope.

We have to comply to Australian standards on any of our products sold to Australia. Brit and Eu isn’t good enough. There are a number of standards for various parts of the world, that meant we had to send off product for testing, comply to rules and send out paperwork to prove it. Hey ho.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

80% of economists trained with the same school. More than 80% of farriers in the uk put metal shoes on horses. It doesn’t make them right.


----------



## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> I haven't attacked anyone personally, but I can't help it that you have taken my posts personally. All I have been doing is posting information and sometimes giving an opinion based on it. You have targeted me personally.
> 
> 
> > If you attack one outer you attack us all and we have all been given some nasty names so I feel you have had a go at me
> > Sorry but that it is how I see it


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

]



Zaros said:


> It would appear the Tories are not content with just tearing the NHS apart, they've targeted the entire bloody country. It's not the first time they've done it either.


They are nothing more than greedy carpet baggers. Divide & rule is how they get in power. They turned the whole country against our mining communities. Now junior doctors are the new 'militants'. I know first hand how they operate. Now the entire UK is in chaos. They are toxic.



DT said:


> But didn't we clarify noush on my toe thread that the rot had set in well before the tories we elected? My A&E certainly- and didn't someone post a,link that there were 32,000 less hospital beds under Labour?


I haven't seen that lol (I'll have to check that thread out again). The tories have cut the beds Sue. Our NHS was in surplus under labour, its in massive deficit now. The tories massive cuts, their underfunding & ramped up privatisation are the reason it will collapse soon.

*NHS waits for cancer care, A&E and ops worsen across UK*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41656667

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statisti...vailability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> 80% of economists trained with the same school. More than 80% of farriers in the uk put metal shoes on horses. It doesn't make them right.


But they were right. Just look at the state of our economy.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Maybe people should stop lounging about smoking a cigarette and taking glugs from a bottle of beer, waiting for their pizza, coke and ice cream to be delivered, having spent all day sitting at a computer or tv screen if they want to save the nhs.  Money will not save it. There’ll never be enough.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> But they were right. Just look at the state of our economy.


My economy's fine and I just paid my tax bill.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Maybe people should stop lounging about smoking a cigarette and taking glugs from a bottle of beer, waiting for their pizza, coke and ice cream to be delivered, having spent all day sitting at a computer or tv screen if they want to save the nhs.  Money will not save it. There'll never be enough.


They are not overspending on it - they are deliberately underfunding it. This is the standard technique for privatisation.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> ]
> 
> They are nothing more than greedy carpet baggers. Divide & rule is how they get in power. They turned the whole country against our mining communities. Now junior doctors are the new 'militants'. I know first hand how they operate. Now the entire UK is in chaos. They are toxic.
> 
> ...


But if the Labour party was in power the deficit would be bigger IMO. So it's better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Of course Corbyn has said he would spend, spend, spend but he failed to explain where the money would come from and how much the tax payer would have to pay. Currently we get a tax free allowance with the Conservatives with the previous labour government this was much lower. So would labour do a better job than the conservatives? Corbyn would accept any deal the EU are prepared to offer without scrutiny.

The NHS was being contracted out to private firms under the previous labour government so what would be different?

One thing that has interested me is Cancer Care and treatment I wish the UK would catch up with cancer care (and other medications for other life threatening illnesses) and treatment with America and other countries as we are quite behind and I don't honestly know if this is due to EU red tap or UK red tap? Statistically I don't know if Cancer has got worse over the decades because I have noticed a trend in my family (doing family research) and from 2017 to the 1920's family member's where dying from cancer.

Hopefully leaving the EU we can advance our NHS and medical treatments?

You can blame the Conservatives for the decline in the NHS but Labour was just as bad under previous Governments. So the answer isn't as clear as day (so to speak). The Conservatives have definitely spent more on the NHS than Labour did and improved the hospitals.

What is going on with the NHS won't be affected by us leaving the EU, Doctors and Nurses would be drafted in from other countries outside of the EU like some hospitals are already doing.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> In all honesty I give up.
> 
> We are leaving the EU and that is all I care about, we can debate if's, but's and maybe's until kingdom come but I stopped worrying way back. I look forward to the future not the past. The UK will not be in the EU soon and that to me is an achievement and we will succeed outside of the EU with or without a deal with the EU preferably in my opinion without a deal so we aren't tied one way or the other to the EU.


Yes unfortunately we are leaving I accept that, I'd just like to know where our bl**dy government are trying to take us.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/healthcare_spending


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> Yes unfortunately we are leaving I accept that, I'd just like to know where our bl**dy government are trying to take us.


IMO we should just leave. I am not sure what TM is trying to achieve by trying to strike a deal.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Elles said:


> https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/healthcare_spending


Interesting...








_Chart 2.41: Health Care Spending in 20th Century_

Notice the dip around the 1990's (when Labour was in power) and the steady increase in the 2000's (when Conservatives took over).


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Yes unfortunately we are leaving I accept that, I'd just like to know where our bl**dy government are trying to take us.


To hell but not back, HP. You'll have to find your own way home, because they only have a one way ticket for you, chuck.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

We can blame the government on the state of the nhs when we stop wasting it. It must be incredibly frustrating spending half your weekend clearing up sick from drunks and stitching up wounds from fights. It can’t be what healthcare workers did their degree for. Even worse, in future they’ll have to pay for the degree that gets them a job clearing up vomit etc.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> We can blame the Conservatives for the decline in the NHS but Labour was just as bad under previous Governments. So the answer isn't as clear as day (so to speak).


Well it should be.

If the Tories were just as bad as labour, shouldn't they be doing better having learned from their earlier mistakes, or are you just excusing their consistently poor performance?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Well it should be.
> 
> If the Tories were just as bad as labour, shouldn't they be doing better having learned from their earlier mistakes, or are you just excusing their consistently poor performance?


The Tories have spent more than the Labour party have ever spent on the NHS and improved the hospitals. Labour would spend money on the NHS but where is that money coming from?

Leaving the EU will not affect this. This is an internal politics problem not EU an politics problem but for some reason @noushka05 thinks it is linked to the UK leaving the EU. Regarding staffing problems some hospitals in the UK have recruited from outside of the EU to make up for staffing loss from EU Doctors and Nurses leaving.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> We can blame the government on the state of the nhs when we stop wasting it. It must be incredibly frustrating spending half your weekend clearing up sick from drunks and stitching up wounds from fights. It can't be what healthcare workers did their degree for. Even worse, in future they'll have to pay for the degree that gets them a job clearing up vomit etc.


We can blame the government because IT IS the government Elles. People have always abused our NHS, but it was still one of the most cost effective health services and one of the best.

*Tories blow "unacceptable" £21million on consultants to draw up plans for cuts to the NHS*
Medics said spending uncovered by magazine Pulse was "difficult to justify" when money was being removed from frontline service

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tories-blow-unacceptable-21million-consultants-11078341


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> The Tories have spent more than the Labour party have ever spent on the NHS and improved the hospitals. Labour would spend money on the NHS but where is that money coming from?
> 
> Leaving the EU will not affect this. This is an internal politics problem not EU an politics problem but for some reason @noushka05 thinks it is linked to the UK leaving the EU. Regarding staffing problems some hospitals in the UK have recruited from outside of the EU to make up for staffing loss from EU Doctors and Nurses leaving.


Go on then, lets see you back this up with evidence.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Go on then, lets see you back this up with evidence.


I don't need to. You posted the daily mirror above. Hardly evidence.

See posts #377 and #379 and try reading the link.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't need to. You posted the daily mirror above. Hardly evidence.


The source wouldn't matter because its all 'fake news' if its not what you want to hear. Have a read at the NHA Party website. They are NHS professionals fighting to save our NHS. http://nhap.org/the-naylor-report-t...ildren-are-being-robbed-of-their-inheritance/


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> The source wouldn't matter because its all 'fake news' if its not what you want to hear. Have a read at the NHA Party website. They are NHS professionals fighting to save our NHS. http://nhap.org/the-naylor-report-t...ildren-are-being-robbed-of-their-inheritance/


I can't be bothered anymore to be honest. Itbisn't associated with leaving the EU.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> I don't need to. You posted the daily mirror above. Hardly evidence.
> 
> See posts #377 and #379 and try reading the link.


I don't know how to find them. I'm sure even you must trust the Lancet as a reliable source?

. Heres what they say about brexit. http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(17)31926-8.pdf


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

India and the Philippines for doctors and nursing staff. The percentage of none Eu health workers in the nhs is far higher than Eu workers. Though of course the majority are brits. It was in the Guardian.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> I don't know how to find them. I'm sure even you must trust the Lancet as a reliable source?
> 
> . Heres what they say about brexit. http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(17)31926-8.pdf


The link to nhap.org the link you put up belongs to an American company/organisation (http://nhap.org/the-naylor-report-t...ildren-are-being-robbed-of-their-inheritance/)








So whats that got to do with the NHS. I am confused. Why are they trying to save the NHS?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> India and the Philippines for doctors and nursing staff. The percentage of none Eu health workers in the nhs is far higher than Eu workers. Though of course the majority are brits. It was in the Guardian.


Brexit will be a catastrophe for our NHS. And when its gone, the tories will just say, well its not our fault its yours, because brexit was 'the will of the people'. I can see it now.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> The link to nhap.org the link you put up belongs to an American company/organisation (http://nhap.org/the-naylor-report-t...ildren-are-being-robbed-of-their-inheritance/)
> View attachment 330041
> 
> So whats that got to do with the NHS. I am confused. Why are they trying to save the NHS?


OMG. I had a pet forum, the domain that belonged to was American lol - it was cheaper.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Brexit will be a catastrophe for our NHS. And when its gone, the tories will just say, well its not our fault its yours, because brexit was 'the will of the people'. I can see it now.


No they won't.

How do you know this?

Do you have a time machine and have seen into the future?


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> OMG. I had a pet forum, the domain that belonged to was American lol - it was cheaper.


The people administering the website eg website owners are American not related to the NHS. I have various websites hosted in the US but I (me) administer and control the website content on them.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> No they won't.
> 
> How do you know this?
> 
> Do you have a time machine and have seen into the future?


Because I know how they operate. When the consequences of brexit are clear, they will push the blame elsewhere. Its what they always do.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> Interesting...
> View attachment 330040
> 
> _Chart 2.41: Health Care Spending in 20th Century_
> ...


Labour came to power in 1997. The dip you refer to coincides with the recession of 1991-2 under John Major. He was a Tory.

The steady increase in the 2000's that you refer to occurred while Labour were in power. The Tories (initially with the LibDems) took over in 2010, when the graph reaches its peak and starts to fall.

Right under the graph on the link it says:

In the 2000s healthcare expenditures increased massively, from 5.1 percent GDP in 2000 to a peak of 7.65 percent GDP in 2010. Since 2010 [when the Tories came to power] healthcare expenditures have declined, down to 7.1 percent GDP by 2020.​


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> The people administering the website eg website owners are American not related to the NHS.


So? My website was owned by Americans.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Because I know how they operate. When the consequences of brexit are clear, they will push the blame elsewhere. Its what they always do.


Ok if you say so (see I cannot be bothered having a pointless debate).


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Anyway this thread is becoming like the old one.

Lalalala









I will leave you to it @noushka05 and @Arnie83

To be frank I am not interested.










We have already discussed these topics so there's no point going over old ground to avhieve the same answers.

Thank you for your entertainment.

Brexit...









See you when it has happened.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don’t think the WHO is in the good books at the minute, what with Mugabe. What were they thinking. 

By the time everyone who can has left the uk and anyone still here has starved to death, we won’t need the nhs. 

If you read further, the dip in the nhs from 7.65 to 7.1 was going to happen under any government. Labour had already said that due to global effects on the economy it wasn’t sustainable. It was neither the fault of the conservatives, or Brexit.

It’s those statistics and correlation/causation thing again. However, even at 7.1 in 2020 it’s not exactly running it down and spending nothing. What would be more important to assess tbh, would be where the money is actually going imo. Is it going on public spending within the nhs, or private contractors outside of it and how much.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Well it should be.
> 
> If the Tories were just as bad as labour, shouldn't they be doing better having learned from their earlier mistakes, or are you just excusing their consistently poor performance?


I've noticed a lot of people just engage in whataboutery and it lets the tories off the hook. They don't want the current government holding to account, but when our NHS is gone forever maybe then they'll wish they fought tooth & nail to save it.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> I don't think the WHO is in the good books at the minute, what with Mugabe. What were they thinking.
> 
> By the time everyone who can has left the uk and anyone still here has starved to death, we won't need the nhs.
> 
> ...


I trust the Lancet study Elles lol


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I trust the Lancet study Elles lol


You don't think they might be just a teensy bit biased?

To be fair, I didn't look at it, but my post is saying 'I don't know, but trust no one', if you read between the lines lol.

I don't trust any government, or take anything any governing body says at face value.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> You don't think they might be just a teensy bit biased?
> 
> To be fair, I didn't look at it, but my post is saying 'I don't know, but trust no one', if you read between the lines lol.
> 
> I don't trust any government, or take anything any governing body says at face value.


No I don't, but I know you are (I'm talking about the lancet study to clarify)


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Just spotted this by the French Ambassador to the USA.


*Gérard Araud*‏Verified [email protected]*GerardAraud* Oct 20

_Maybe I am too cartesian but leaving the largest free trade area in the world and 53 free trade agreements on behalf of free trade is weird_


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> No I don't, but I know you are




That's where you're wrong. Read my post again. It says it doesn't matter how much money any government say they're spending on the nhs, or how much they technically are, if it's all going into private companies and expensive equipment to make it more attractive to future American investors, it's irrelevant who's spending the most. I don't actually know if that's what is happening, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised. If that's biased, I don't know what open minded is.

Open minded, but not so much our brains fall out of course.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Just spotted this by the French Ambassador to the USA.
> 
> 
> *Gérard Araud*‏Verified [email protected]*GerardAraud* Oct 20
> ...


The largest closed shop he means.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> That's where you're wrong. Read my post again. It says it doesn't matter how much money any government say they're spending on the nhs, or how much they technically are, if it's all going into private companies and expensive equipment to make it more attractive to future American investors, it's irrelevant who's spending the most. I don't actually know if that's what is happening, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised. If that's biased, I don't know what open minded is.
> 
> Open minded, but not so much our brains fall out of course.


Sorry I think we got crossed wires, I was talking about the lancet study, I thought you were too. (my fault for scanning posts)


Elles said:


> The largest closed shop he means.


In your opinion lol


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Sorry I think we got crossed wires, I was talking about the lancet study, I thought you were too. (my fault for scanning posts)
> 
> In your opinion lol


Ah ok. My son just popped in to say he's off to Cyprus tomorrow. £50 total to fly from Exeter. If I didn't have Elles and Aria to think of, I'd go too, that's a real bargain.  Distracted me a bit.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Ah ok. My son just popped in to say he's off to Cyprus tomorrow. £50 total to fly from Exeter. If I didn't have Elles and Aria to think of, I'd go too, that's a real bargain.  Distracted me a bit.


Blimey that is a bargain:Jawdrop No wonder you were distracted lol


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*May pleads with EU leaders for a deal she can defend to UK public*.

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-urges-brexit-deal-she-can-defend-to-british-public-11089067

*A C Grayling*‏Verified [email protected]*acgrayling* Oct 20

_Extraordinary. May begging EU partners to 
help her sell the unsellable to tank our country. 
We're living in a lunatic asylum
_

.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

‘Pleads with Eu leaders” 

“Begging..” 

Talk about manipulating.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> ]
> 
> They are nothing more than greedy carpet baggers. Divide & rule is how they get in power. They turned the whole country against our mining communities. Now junior doctors are the new 'militants'. I know first hand how they operate. Now the entire UK is in chaos. They are toxic.
> 
> ...


You sure that Chart aint upside-down noush :Bawling


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Admissions have increased by 56% in 10 years, but average length of stay has reduced from 6.6 days to 4.8 days. Things like keyhole surgery, better anaesthetics and shorter maternity stays, basically some procedures are quicker and need less recovery time than they did before, has had some impact. 

It seems we need better social care, care in the community and hospice care so that elderly and terminal patients can receive the care they need in a better environment than a hospital bed. So called bed blocking, which has nothing to do with the poor patient who would like nothing better than to leave hospital, but have no alternative atm. 

Still little to nothing to do with deal or no deal though I think.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

DT said:


> You sure that Chart aint upside-down noush :Bawling


There ya go, another real life LOL from me, thank you


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

DT said:


> You sure that Chart aint upside-down noush :Bawling


Who gives a toss I've still got the giggles from @DT post


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

(Quote removed by LinznMilly)
I thought we weren't allowed to repeat stuff or discuss stuff from closed threads. PF's rules must have changed :Muted 

Any way back to having a fun filled evening.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> I've noticed a lot of people just engage in whataboutery and it lets the tories off the hook. They don't want the current government holding to account, but when our NHS is gone forever maybe then they'll wish they fought tooth & nail to save it.


Na, so so wrong. Nobody is letting the Tories off the hook, in fact we voted them back in to get on with the job. So let them do that, after all the voting public didn't trust Labour.


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Closing this to go through...
:Locktopic


----------



## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> (Quote removed by LinznMilly)
> I thought we weren't allowed to repeat stuff or discuss stuff from closed threads. PF's rules must have changed :Muted
> 
> Any way back to having a fun filled evening.


Nope, rules haven't changed, but I do have a life outside of PF. 

I'm going to reopen this, but please try to keep it civil.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> The largest closed shop he means.


With those 53 free trade agreements around the world, more being negotiated with the likes of Australia and Japan, and with 28 (soon to be 27) members with others lining up to join, what, would you say, makes it a 'closed shop'?


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> , but I do have a life outside of PF.
> 
> l.


Thats terrible it shouldn't be allowed, think someone needs to have a word with the gaffer they need to put a stop to that


----------



## Guest (Oct 22, 2017)

stockwellcat. said:


> Anyway this thread is becoming like the old one.
> 
> Lalalala
> 
> ...


Thanks for this, now I know why it has been so hard to pass on any information about the real consequences of Brexit to many leavers on this thread too. @noushka05 and @Arnie83 how can you get the message through, if some just aren´t interested.

Originally posted by stockwellcat.









The only way you get them interested is when it is too late. For example, when they are waiting to see a doctor and that is all they will get, a picture of a doctor in a brochure, or a link to an online doctor, who works in India. Or when you face the medical bill, which is in thousands to to get an operation. An example of US/ corporate prices: it was cheaper for an American couple to give birth in Finland, pay the price for a private patient, pay for the rented apartment and pay for the flights than pay for it in America.

And naturally all this "quality" care costs tax payers much more than NHS. Naturally. No wonder big corporations have wet dreams with Brexit and will do anything to get their hands on NHS.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> Still little to nothing to do with deal or no deal though I think.


When talking about the following will these be remembered?





Brexit = less money for the government so NHS likely to have less instead of that 350million a week. No deal = even less money than simply leaving.

No deal also means problems in other areas. Euratom for example:. There's also other bodies such as medical drug authorisation. Research is another area which is being hit by brexit.

I've seen beds being talked about. Consider the UK was one of the "richest" countries in the EU. This table shows the availble number of "curative" beds per 100K people:










It's not simply people need to look after themselves. This chart shows something deeper is a problem.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Thanks for this, now I know why it has been so hard to pass on any information about the real consequences of Brexit to many leavers on this thread too. @noushka05 and @Arnie83 how can you get the message through, if some just aren´t interested.


We got the message but remainers go around and around in circles. Personally I am no longer interested. There is only so much people can take you know before they switch off.

We all ready have GP's on apps (advertised at Pharmacies), but I personally not had the need to use this app as I can get an NHS GP's appointment the same day if I need to. Plus I can be seen at NHS hospital the same day if I need to. NHS services have improved in my area.

But honestly I give up on Brexit because remainers choose to ignore leavers and our comments. So what's the point trying to engage in conversation when you don't want to know.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

stockwellcat. said:


> We got the message but *remainers go around and around in circles.* Personally I am no longer interested. There is only so much people can take you know before they switch off.


I think you have been doing the same, I know we are leaving not my choice that's what is happening. I don't like it been pushed down my throat the way the leaves have been acting in such a nasty way. You have won so please stop been so nasty.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> I think you have been doing the same, I know we are leaving not my choice that's what is happening. I don't like it been pushed down my throat the way the leaves have been acting in such a nasty way. You have won so please stop been so nasty.


Don't worry, you won't hear a peep from me from now on. I have better things to do with my life than having to defend myself online because of the way I voted last year.

Remainers have been just as nasty btw.

Anyway, I am now moving on from this.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> But honestly I give up on Brexit because remainers choose to ignore leavers and our comments. So what's the point trying to engage in conversation when you don't want to know.


The difference is people who don't agree do not ignore your comments. They provide evidence that you are wrong and that leaving, especially with no deal out of a fit of pique is only going to be worse for the UK.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Happy Paws said:


> I think you have been doing the same, I know we are leaving not my choice that's what is happening. I don't like it been pushed down my throat the way the leaves have been acting in such a nasty way. You have won so please stop been so nasty.


Thing is happy paws I think its,difficult sometimes on a forum, honestly do believe that in real life that when people disagree on an issue they then move on.
Very different here, both sides are banging their heads against the wall and going round and round in circles. Key is take anything said with a pinch of salt and nothing personally ,xx.


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

stockwellcat. said:


> Don't worry, you won't hear a peep from me from now on. I have better things to do with my life than having to defend myself online because of the way I voted last year.
> 
> Remainers have been just as nasty btw.
> 
> Anyway, I am now moving on from this.


Oh you cant do that, we have,a few more laps,to complete yet


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> The difference is people who don't agree do not ignore your comments. They provide evidence that you are wrong and that leaving, especially with no deal out of a fit of pique is only going to be worse for the UK.


Evidence? How is it evidence when it hasn't happened, speculation more like
Sorry that should say belief


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

stockwellcat. said:


> But honestly I give up on Brexit because remainers choose to ignore leavers and our comments. So what's the point trying to engage in conversation when you don't want to know.


Apologies if I have done that.

If you would like to list those comments of yours that I have ignored, I will do my best to answer each one.

Edit: Actually that might take a while: let's just make it the most important 3 comments of yours that I have ignored, and I will answer those.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Evidence? How is it evidence when it hasn't happened, speculation more like
> Sorry that should say belief


So we don't know that the EU has 40+ trade deals with the rest of the world then which the UK will lose access to? There is plenty of evidence as to what will happen you ignore which is not speculation.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> The difference is people who don't agree do not ignore your comments. They provide evidence that you are wrong and that leaving, especially with no deal out of a fit of pique is only going to be worse for the UK.


To be fair when you've said exactly the same thing seventy one times you should expect to be ignored.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> Thanks for this, now I know why it has been so hard to pass on any information about the real consequences of Brexit to many leavers on this thread too. @noushka05 and @Arnie83 how can you get the message through, if some just aren´t interested.
> 
> Originally posted by stockwellcat.
> 
> ...


If people could just look objectively it would be blatantly obvious to them too brexit is going to be a catastrophe . But no matter how much evidence is provided many are impervious to logic & reason. Its the same with change deniers - they are wilfully blind.

We warned this would happen. Brexit means the end of the NHS. Americas corporate vultures have been circling our NHS for years - the tories will hand it to them on a plate. 
*
May suggests NHS could be part of huge US trade deal.*

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hs-us-trade-deal-brexit-torture-a7548156.html



Dr Pepper said:


> Na, so so wrong. Nobody is letting the Tories off the hook, in fact we voted them back in to get on with the job. So let them do that, after all the voting public didn't trust Labour.


Voted the tories back in to get on with the job? Stop it Dr Pepper! my sides are aching:Hilarious

The tories are so incompetent they didn't even know the difference between the single market and the customs union prior to negotiations. What a bunch of charlatans they are.

I mean, really?

*Keir Starmer*‏Verified [email protected]*Keir_Starmer* Oct 20

_
In Parliament David Davis described 'no deal' as a negotiating tactic; thus destroying it as a negotiating tactic. 
_


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

noushka05 said:


> If people could just look objectively it would be blatantly obvious to them too brexit is going to be a catastrophe . But no matter how much evidence is provided many are impervious to logic & reason. Its the same with change deniers - they are wilfully blind.
> 
> We warned this would happen. Brexit means the end of the NHS. Americas corporate vultures have been circling our NHS for years - the tories will hand it to them on a plate.
> *
> ...


What's so funny? I've just checked and the conservatives are definitely in government and Brexit is being negotiated.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Goblin said:


> When talking about the following will these be remembered?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you know Vote Leave website has been deleted Goblin?
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/developer-rebuilds-wiped-vote-leave-website

/










And Vote Leaves Dominic Cummings deleted his twitter account calling Article 50 an 'historic unforgivable blunder'!









https://jonworth.eu/dominic-cummings-odysseanproject-deletes-twitter-account-piecing-back-together/


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Pepper said:


> What's so funny? I've just checked and the conservatives are definitely in government and Brexit is being negotiated.


They don't have anything to negotiate with Dr Pepper! Its all about damage limitation.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

What has any of this got to do with deal, or no deal? The videos I presume are from before the referendum, I wouldn’t remember because I’ve never seen them. The Eu is doing nothing about the USA and the nhs, whether we leave, remain, deal, or no deal. The graph unfortunately I can’t read and only goes up 2014. I didn’t realise so many countries had free beds in hospitals and national health services to rival our own. Makes you wonder where all the health tourists come from. If a website has gone, it’s probably because it’s no longer relevant and worth maintaining.

None of it has to do with the topic, which asked us to bet on whether there’d be a deal or not, not rehash old ground.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> What has any of this got to do with deal, or no deal? The videos I presume are from before the referendum, I wouldn't remember because I've never seen them.


Strange how so many people never saw any of the media but the same lies are repeated isn't it. Nobody saw any of the leave campaign or media, didn't you know.



> None of it has to do with the topic, which asked us to bet on whether there'd be a deal or not, not rehash old ground.


So UK being worse off, not getting the billions spent on the NHS isn't relevent. The fact no deal will impact UK finances, including what is available for the NHS isn't applicable. The fact that access to medication etc will be negatively affected isn't relevent. The fact that staffing levels will be affected is not relevent. What do you class as relevent when it comes to the NHS?


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Brexit means poorer Britain.
Poorer people will be discontented and prone to follow any radical populist, who is in opposition to current government.

That would be interesting of it did not mean Gibraltar being handed to Spain to as a part of " damage limitations".

Tories are bound to lose next election and then even DUP will not save them.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Interesting bit about Germany:


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

The Institute of Directors, the Confederation of British Industry, the British Chambers of Commerce, the Federation of Small Businesses, and the EEF (the manufacturers' organisation) are calling for an urgent deal on the transition period matching current trading arrangements as closely as possible. Without it, their planning will have consequences for jobs and investment in the UK.

Difficult to dismiss as either scaremongering or safely ignored, since these are the people who are going to make the decisions and move those jobs and investment.

'No deal' seems only to be supported by those whose agenda doesn't feature the short or medium term economic prosperity of the country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41716284


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Those who represent & specialise in disaster capitalism are the ones pushing for no deal. The very hard right.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Those who represent & specialise in disaster capitalism are the ones pushing for no deal. The very hard right.


And those for whom the 'sovereignty' of the tribe is more important than the prosperity of its people.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> And those for whom the 'sovereignty' of the tribe is more important than the prosperity of its people.


This is how my example gets your example to vote against their own best interests - by whipping up nationalism.

'taking our country back'


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> This is how my example gets your example to vote against their own best interests - by whipping up nationalism.
> *'taking our country back' *


Into the middle ages, where the vast majority of the people were dirt poor, and life expectancy was approximately 30 years because, as we all know, there was no NHS back then either.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The NHS needs a complete overhaul and to concentrate on preventative health care first and foremost, instead of supporting the agribusiness and big pharma that is killing us. It’s a big subject all by itself and I certainly don’t have all the solutions.

Deal or no deal is irrelevant.

Why would I have looked at the media for information on Brexit when I hardly ever look at it and had already decided what I had to do come referendum day. As I said before my vote was more to do with ‘us’ than anything the Eu does.

Use the nationalism to move people away from American corporates and towards buying locally.

Again the op asked us whether or not we think we’re heading for a no deal scenario, at the moment I think it unlikely, though of course I don’t know any more than anyone else.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Why does every political thread turn into a thinly veiled Brexit thread?

I meant to post this in the Spanish thread, which is also turning into an attack on the Leave decision.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

According to a gentleman from Leave Means Leave on the Daily Politics just now, No Deal is no longer to be known as No Deal; it is now Different Deal. They're trying to make out, contrary to all other opinions, that a sudden change to WTO rules across the board - i.e. No Deal - is no problem whatsoever, it's just Different.

In the same way, I think, that discovering while 20,000 feet up in mid-air that your parachute is not going to open doesn't mean you have No Chance, just that hitting the ground at terminal velocity gives you a Different Chance.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Into the middle ages, where the vast majority of the people were dirt poor, and life expectancy was approximately 30 years because, as we all know, there was no NHS back then either.


That's where we're heading, to a time when there was no health care except for those who could afford it. When there was no welfare state for those who fell on hard times. Already people are dying because of the tories austerity con.



Elles said:


> The NHS needs a complete overhaul and to concentrate on preventative health care first and foremost, instead of supporting the agribusiness and big pharma that is killing us. It's a big subject all by itself and I certainly don't have all the solutions.
> 
> Deal or no deal is irrelevant.
> 
> ...


My lovely Mum didn't smoke or drink, she wasn't overweight, she ate healthily - but for many years she suffered from serious health problems & needed medical care. No expense was spared trying to save her life from the serious heart conditions she had. She had her mitral & aortic valves replaced, she had an aortic aneurysm repaired. She suffered a cardiac arrest after her heart surgery so she had another operation to fit her with a defibrillator. She was in hospital for 6 weeks on that occasion. All this was on the NHS. If my dear Mum was alive today I honestly don't know how I would cope with the stress of knowing what the tories are doing to our heath service & knowing brexit will likely finish it off forever. I was terrified for her even when I knew she was getting the best care and treatment. I think I would have a breakdown now. My point is Elles, you can have the healthiest diet going but still end up suffering from a serious medical condition and find yourself needing treatment. Or you could get injured. No one knows whats around the corner for them or their loved ones. Millions of us depend upon our NHS, it is precious - so I will fight tooth and nail to save it and never let this government off the hook.

'No deal' is very relevant to our NHS. It will be catastrophic.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

So no one should bother then? The point is, if we all bothered the nhs wouldn’t be struggling to find the resources to treat people like your mum. Agribusiness and big pharma wouldn’t be quite so big and people wouldn’t be taking drugs to treat the side effects of drugs they’re given to treat the side effects of treatment for something that could have been totally avoided. If no deal will be catastrophic, we need a contingency plan.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Elles said:


> So no one should bother then? The point is, if we all bothered the nhs wouldn't be struggling to find the resources to treat people like your mum. Agribusiness and big pharma wouldn't be quite so big and people wouldn't be taking drugs to treat the side effects of drugs they're given to treat the side effects of treatment for something that could have been totally avoided. If no deal will be catastrophic, we need a contingency plan.


Nobody is saying we shouldn't bother. But even if everyone suddenly switched all their habits overnight (which, of course, is not going to happen) to whatever you currently think is idea, that's not going to make a significant difference for some time. And even if/when it did, it wouldn't change the fact that the largest proportion of NHS costs goes on treating conditions associated with old age, and with the best will in the world a healthier lifestyle isn't going to cure getting old and the majority of health conditions associated with a body that is wearing out as it reaches the end of it's life span.

But unless you are going to suggest the government should totally ban smoking, alcohol, sweets, snacks, all ready meals and pre-packaged food deemed 'unhealthy' etc., plus maybe enforce daily and weekly exercise targets, perhaps even bring back rationing so only the rich can afford to eat unhealthily, then the 'IF' in 'if we all bothered' is moot. (And, lets face it, given where large chunks of tax revenue come from, they're not going to do any of that.) Contingency plans are great, but they have to be feasible, and anything that depends on tens of milliions of people freely deciding to change their lifestyle drastically more or less overnight isn't going to happen unless it is forced. And no govenrment is going to implement anything like that unless they really don't want to get elected ever again.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> So no one should bother then? The point is, if we all bothered the nhs wouldn't be struggling to find the resources to treat people like your mum. Agribusiness and big pharma wouldn't be quite so big and people wouldn't be taking drugs to treat the side effects of drugs they're given to treat the side effects of treatment for something that could have been totally avoided. If no deal will be catastrophic, we need a contingency plan.


I didn't say that. The NHS was the most cost effective, efficient heath service - its being deliberately starved of funding and forced to make 'efficiency savings' because the tories are privatising it. The tories haven't increased spending on our NHS. As a % of GDP it's reduced year on year since 2010.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Labour said they would also have to reduce spending on the nhs. Due to various global issues, labour themselves said the increased spending wasn’t sustainable.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> Labour said they would also have to reduce spending on the nhs. Due to various global issues, labour themselves said the increased spending wasn't sustainable.


Can you provide references please Elles? Are we talking about New labour or labour under Corbyn's leadership?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I agree, sadly.
_
Extraordinary piece from Revd Graeme Richardson in the Church Times _https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2017/20-october/comment/opinion/the-human-cost-of-brexit-uncertainty…









(via twitter)


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> I agree, sadly.
> _
> Extraordinary piece from Revd Graeme Richardson in the Church Times _https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2017/20-october/comment/opinion/the-human-cost-of-brexit-uncertainty…
> 
> ...


That's very much what I feel. Even if Brexit doesn't happen for whatever reason, the fact that 52% of voters wanted to raise the drawbridge and return to the past has made this country one with which I feel little affinity. Liberal, progressive, and global it isn't.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> That's very much what I feel. Even if Brexit doesn't happen for whatever reason, the fact that 52% of voters wanted to raise the drawbridge and return to the past has made this country one with which I feel little affinity. Liberal, progressive, and global it isn't.


Actually we'll have the opportunity to be far more liberal, progressive and global. It's a bit like in business being a franchise with all the constraints that entails but with certain securities, or going it alone with the freedom to grow and expanded unhindered.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I think we’ve been through all this before. It’s quite simply untrue that 52% of the uk want to return to the past and kick out European people. But we’ve already had this discussion and the assumption just keeps on being posted, so it’s pointless continuing to try to debate it.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

New Labour, the one who increased spending and nhs staff morale, said that they would have to reduce spending due to global problems. As it was New Labour not Corbyn, there’s little point in me looking for references.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Actually we'll have the opportunity to be far more liberal, progressive and global. It's a bit like in business being a franchise with all the constraints that entails but with certain securities, or going it alone with the freedom to grow and expanded unhindered.


I'm aware that this risks bringing us dangerously close to a rehash of voting reasons, but the research suggested the top aims were taking back control of 'laws' and reducing immigration. I don't think many were motivated by the unlikely chance of global trade liberalisation.


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> I think we've been through all this before. It's quite simply untrue that 52% of the uk want to return to the past and *kick out European people*. But we've already had this discussion and the assumption just keeps on being posted, so it's pointless continuing to try to debate it.


I didn't suggest that anyone wanted to do that. I mentioned above the main reasons given in the post-referendum research by Lord Ashcroft, which refer to the reinstatement of a previous situation - i.e. the past - and the restriction on inward migration.


----------



## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> I'm aware that this risks bringing us dangerously close to a rehash of voting reasons, but the research suggested the top aims were taking back control of 'laws' and reducing immigration. I don't think many were motivated by the unlikely chance of global trade liberalisation.


I wasn't on about why people voted at all, and I don't think your post was either. I was just pointing out the error in your post that we would be more restricted when the opposite is true. If people voted leave for this reason all well and good, but either way it's just an added bonus that a deal or no deal (back on topic!) won't change.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elles said:


> New Labour, the one who increased spending and nhs staff morale, said that they would have to reduce spending due to global problems. As it was New Labour not Corbyn, there's little point in me looking for references.


Thank you. Labour has now rejected neoliberalism (Thatcherism) , the obsession with marketisation & privatisation is finally over, thank god!. As bad as new labour were what they did doesn't come close to the damage the tories are inflicting on our health service.

From one of the smartest people on the planet.

*Stephen Hawking blames Tory politicians for damaging NHS
*
Physicist criticises ministers over funding cuts, privatisation and pay caps before address revealing his reliance on health service

https://www.theguardian.com/science...politicians-for-damaging-nhs?CMP=share_btn_tw

Stephen Hawking has accused ministers of damaging the NHS, blaming the Conservatives in a passionate and sustained attack for slashing funding, weakening the health service though privatisation, demoralising staff by curbing pay and cutting social care support.

The renowned 75-year-old physicist was speaking to promote an address he will give on Saturday outlining how he owes his long life and achievements to the NHS care he received, and setting out his fears for a service he believes is being turned into "a US-style insurance system

The author of A Brief History of Time did not name any minister or political party in his general complaint, but he blamed a raft of policies pursued since 2010 by the coalition and then the Conservatives for enfeebling the NHS and leaving it unable to cope with the demands being placed on it.

"The crisis in the NHS has been caused by political decisions," he said. "The political decisions include underfunding and cuts, privatising services, the public sector pay cap, the new contract imposed on the junior doctors and removal of the student nurses' bursary.

"Failures in the system of privatised social care for disabled and elderly people has also placed additional burden on the NHS."

His speech at the Royal Society of Medicine will single out Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, who claimed that 11,000 patients a year died because of understaffing of hospitals at weekends. Hawking will say that four of the eight studies cited by Hunt were not peer reviewed and that he ignored 13 papers which contradicted his statements.

"Speaking as a scientist, cherry picking evidence is unacceptable," he will say. "When public figures abuse scientific argument, citing some studies but suppressing others, to justify policies that they want to implement for other reasons, it debases scientific culture.

"One consequence of this sort of behaviour is that it leads ordinary people not to trust science, at a time when scientific research and progress are more important than ever, given the challenges we face as a human race."

Criticising NHS privatisation, Hawking will say that the £2.9bn spent every year by hospitals in England on temporary personnel to alleviate chronic understaffing has enriched private employment firms while denying the NHS vital funding

"The huge increase in the use of private agency staff, for example, inevitably means that money is extracted from the system as profit for the agency, and increases costs for the whole country."

Hawking will says he fears that private firms have gained such a large role in treating NHS patients they are now undermining its founding principles and opening the door to the Americanisation of care.

"We must prevent the establishment of a two-tier service, with the best medicine for the wealthy and an inferior service for the rest. International comparisons indicate that the most efficient way to provide good healthcare is for services to be publicly funded and publicly run.

"We see that the direction in the UK is towards a US-style insurance system, run by the private companies, and that is because the balance of power right now is
with the private companies."

Politicians need to defend the NHS and the public be encouraged to take a stand, he will say.

He rejects claims that the spiralling costs of treating an ageing and growing population, coupled with tight government finances, mean the NHS, which will receive £149.2bn of public funding across the UK this year, has become too expensive to continue in its present form. That idea has sparked inquiries by select committees of both houses of parliament, thinktanks and medical bodies.

"*When politicians and private healthcare industry lobbyists claim that we cannot afford the NHS, this is the exact inversion of the truth. We cannot afford not to have the NHS",* he will declare

Prof Sir Simon Wessely, the RSM's president, said: "Prof Stephen Hawking's reputation goes before him, so when a man of his extraordinary intellect but also with his equally extraordinary experience of illness, talks about the NHS and its values, we must all pay close attention


----------



## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> I wasn't on about why people voted at all, and I don't think your post was either. I was just pointing out the error in your post that we would be more restricted when the opposite is true. If people voted leave for this reason all well and good, but either way it's just an added bonus that a deal or no deal (back on topic!) won't change.


From a purely personal point of view it was people's voting reasons that put me off Britain. But I've already explained why in the closed thread so I won't repeat it here.

I think that for our trade to be less restricted post-Brexit, though possible, a number of unlikely criteria will have to be met. The very first being a surprisingly good Deal.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

“52% didn’t care about their future, or just wanted them out”. I think that is what’s being said, an untruth being repeated.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> From a purely personal point of view it was people's voting reasons that put me off Britain. But I've already explained why in the closed thread so I won't repeat it here.
> 
> I think that for our trade to be less restricted post-Brexit, though possible, a number of unlikely criteria will have to be met. The very first being a surprisingly good Deal.


See your thinking to much about the EU. We'll still trade with them deal or not. Forget the EU and see the bigger picture.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> See your thinking to much about the EU. We'll still trade with them deal or not. Forget the EU and see the bigger picture.


What the 50 other trade deals around the world we lose and the rest of the world who we traded with anyway.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> "52% didn't care about their future, or just wanted them out". I think that is what's being said, an untruth being repeated.


Sorry, I thought you were referring to one of my posts. I haven't seen that post anywhere.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> What the 50 other trade deals around the world we lose and the rest of the world who we traded with anyway.


Exactly that 

And obviously all the other benefits of not being a franchise.

Think about the UK as a business (which it is) and you may see the potential.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> Sorry, I thought you were referring to one of my posts. I haven't seen that post anywhere.


Read your post number 457?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> See your thinking to much about the EU. We'll still trade with them deal or not. Forget the EU and see the bigger picture.


It's jolly nice of you to point out what errors I'm making, but you really needn't.

Of course we will trade with the EU, but it will be more expensive than it is now. How much more expensive matters quite a lot because we have to replace that trade with more profitable trade elsewhere in order to maintain our current levels of government tax receipts and therefore public spending.

The 50-odd free trade deals we enjoy through the EU will have to remain as profitable as they are now if we are not to lose yet more money for the government to spend. Each of the 50-odd other countries will want to take advantage of the chance to renegotiate those trade deals to try to improve their own prosperity, and, given that we are five times smaller than the EU with which they originally agreed the deals, they stand a good chance of doing so. So we are not going to replace the lost EU trade / profit from those 50.

We will have to try to improve the trading relationship with countries outside those 50 + 27 to make up the difference, and then, hopefully to profit even more. Countries such as the USA - which is currently looking more protectionist than at any recent time - and China, who are not very well known for their philanthropic attitude to overseas trade (ref: the steel industry), or India, who already want looser immigration rules as part of any trade deal (not something beloved of the Tories or Leave voters). Or we could turn to Australia and New Zealand, with a combined population of less than 30 million, v. the EU's 450 m.

Hence, the deal with the EU needs to be as good as possible, thus minimising the losses that we have to make up elsewhere, and also minimising the loss to the exchequer which will feed directly into public spending on stuff like welfare and the NHS.

If that picture isn't big, or accurate, enough, then feel free to point out the errors.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> "52% didn't care about their future, or just wanted them out". I think that is what's being said, an untruth being repeated.


Your interpretation of my post is wrong. I'm not even sure who 'their' or 'them' is referring to.

The main reasons for the 52% voting the way they did concerned returning powers to the UK (= a return to a past situation) and reducing immigration (= pulling up the drawbridge, in my parlance, and nothing to do with throwing anyone out)

I simply conclude that those 52% don't want to be an open and active part of something larger than their own country except by way of the sort of cross-border trade that has existed since neolithic times.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Arnie83 said:


> It's jolly nice of you to point out what errors I'm making, but you really needn't.
> 
> Of course we will trade with the EU, but it will be more expensive than it is now. How much more expensive matters quite a lot because we have to replace that trade with more profitable trade elsewhere in order to maintain our current levels of government tax receipts and therefore public spending.
> 
> ...


Na, think longer term. You are thinking March 2019 and not much beyond. Bigger picture, maybe you just can't see it.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> Your interpretation of my post is wrong. I'm not even sure who 'their' or 'them' is referring to.
> 
> The main reasons for the 52% voting the way they did concerned returning powers to the UK (= a return to a past situation) and reducing immigration (= pulling up the drawbridge, in my parlance, and nothing to do with throwing anyone out)
> 
> I simply conclude that those 52% don't want to be an open and active part of something larger than their own country except by way of the sort of cross-border trade that has existed since neolithic times.


I'm totally lost. Noushka posted a twitter feed that said Eu nationals here feel sadness, because 52% of voters in the uk either don't care, or want them out. You said you feel the same way. So what do you feel the same way as? You quoted the post and responded to it, yet didn't know what it said?

Can you see why I'd be confused when I then disagreed and you said no one was saying they want Eu nationals to leave, when you directly quoted a post that said they did? 

Is there any point in having a discussion with someone who has drawn their own conclusions about other people's motives and closed the door? I don't think so really.

That's me done. I'm out.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

A few people on both sides of the debate are declaring themselves out.

Does anyone want the thread closed/remain open? (delete as appropriate).


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

LinznMilly said:


> A few people on both sides of the debate are declaring themselves out.
> 
> Does anyone want the thread closed/remain open? (delete as appropriate).


Pretty sure @stockwellcat. will be back 

No need to close it, it will die and fall off the radar if that's what contributors want.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> A few people on both sides of the debate are declaring themselves out.
> 
> Does anyone want the thread closed/remain open? (delete as appropriate).


Best to leave it open, there are plenty who do want to discuss even if some are bowing out. And there will be plenty to be discussed as things unfold.

Besides, so far 'I'm out' declarations haven't usually lasted that long...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Exactly that
> 
> And obviously all the other benefits of not being a franchise.
> 
> Think about the UK as a business (which it is) and you may see the potential.


How is losing beneficial advantages when we trade anyway with whoever we want a benefit, especially in the short term? If you think of business, advantages are normally retained rather than discarded for wishful thinking not based on anything solid.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/...the-value-of-the-eu-single-market-for-the-uk/

Of course we can do our own trade deals which will be worse than the EU's simply as our cards at the negotiating table will be far weaker. There's a reason so many countries are forming and attempting to replicate the single market. It benefits the member countries.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

_Why is the Government refusing to publish its studies on the impact of Brexit?

Let's look at the possible answers

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2017/10/21/government-keeping-us-dark-brexit-quite-right/

















_


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Elles said:


> I'm totally lost. Noushka posted a twitter feed that said Eu nationals here feel sadness, because 52% of voters in the uk either don't care, or want them out. You said you feel the same way. So what do you feel the same way as? You quoted the post and responded to it, yet didn't know what it said?
> 
> Can you see why I'd be confused when I then disagreed and you said no one was saying they want Eu nationals to leave, when you directly quoted a post that said they did?
> 
> ...


Ah, I see, and yes my post was certainly open to that misinterpretation because I wasn't specific enough. Apologies.

What I meant was that, like the person quoted, I don't feel as at home in this country as I did before the vote. To me, it revealed that the majority did not want an openness that I valued. It represented a rejection of our closer association with a wider community, which I believe to be the future not only of Europe, but of humanity.

I was disappointed that the majority of British people wanted to reinforce the arbitrary boundaries between us rather than further blur them. I had believed that it was only a minority who felt that way, and that the majority of Britons were as outwardly liberal in their views as myself. I was clearly wrong, and that makes me sad.

Worse, I am now told to 'get behind' the result, with people citing as the reason the very nationalism with which I fundamentally disagree.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Dr Pepper said:


> Na, think longer term. You are thinking March 2019 and not much beyond. Bigger picture, maybe you just can't see it.


I certainly can't see the picture more than, say, a decade ahead, because it is way too blurry. It is entirely possible that events will mean the UK is economically better off than we would have been had we remained in the EU. It is entirely possible that the UK will be considerably worse off. Either way we will survive; no doubt about that. And by the time we reach that far any argument as to the propriety of leaving will be pretty much unprovable one way or the other. The future will be what it is, with no alternative reality against which to measure it.

In the short to medium term, though - up to February 2029, let's say - everything points only one way. While some certainly disagree, that is the conclusion / prediction of the vast majority of commentators who have a clear and unbiased understanding of the contributory factors. The naysayers who envisage sunny uplands and a great Britain bestriding the commercial world, sails filled by the Free Trade winds are basing their predictions on little more than faith.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

LinznMilly said:


> A few people on both sides of the debate are declaring themselves out.
> 
> Does anyone want the thread closed/remain open? (delete as appropriate).


I don't see that there is a need to close it so long as people's comments focus on the message rather than the messenger.

We would all do well to remember that different interpretations are usually opinions to be discussed, rather than errors to be corrected.

(Except when actual facts are involved of course! )


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Arnie83 said:


> I don't see that there is a need to close it so long as people's comments focus on the message rather than the messenger.
> 
> We would all do well to remember that different interpretations are usually opinions to be discussed, rather than errors to be corrected.
> 
> (Except when actual facts are involved of course! )


You have always been polite and courteous Arnie, . A Quality to be admired, respect to you


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> You have always been polite and courteous Arnie, . A Quality to be admired, respect to you


Thank you.

(You should see all the drafts I delete and rewrite! )


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

The views of Sir Ivan Rodgers,former British envoy to the EU.

The U.K. shouldn't expect the European Union to give it the same access to markets after Brexit as it gets now and some of its proposals are seen by the other side as "fantasy," according to Ivan Rogers, Britain's former envoy to the bloc.

The EU believes "there's a radical difference between a free-trade agreement and being inside the single market and customs union," Rogers told Parliament's Treasury Committee in London. "We cannot expect simple continuity whether it's in energy or telecoms or financial services."

Rogers, who left the U.K.'s civil service earlier this year after criticizing the government's approach to the divorce, said there was frustration on the EU side that Britain had not set out how it envisaged its future relationship.

While officials expect it to be similar to the free-trade arrangement the bloc has with Canada, Prime Minister Theresa May has said that deal isn't ambitious enough.

*"The jargon in Brussels is Canada or Canada dry, the jargon in London is Canada plus plus plus," Rogers said. "If you talk to people I know well in Brussels and other capitals about Canada plus plus plus, they regard this as British fantasy land and they say that's not on offer."*​
If he's right - and presumably he has a better idea than most - it could suggest problems reaching the sort of deal the May wants. Whether that would result in No Deal (whatever that is) remains to be seen.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

The uk economy figures
Views?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Can I just say that I am watching the news and they haven't got a ******** clue. Honestly it's like a sitcom.... Carry On Exiting...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Robert Peston*‏Verified [email protected]*Peston* 16h16 hours ago

_Ivan Rogers savages May and Davies for triggering Article 50 without prior agreement from EU 
that future trade deal would be negotiated at same time as Brexit terms. 
It was obvious he says EU would "screw us" if we did not do that._

Read this and weep.
_


















_


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

One of the most iconic British figures BBC reporter John Simpson.

A lot of us are feeling like this.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Nothing sinister at all about this.:Watching

Staunch brexiteer and tory whip sends this letter to every university.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...demands-list-brexit-chris-heaton-harris#img-2


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Nothing sinister at all about this.:Watching
> 
> Staunch brexiteer and tory whip sends this letter to every university.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/educati...demands-list-brexit-chris-heaton-harris#img-2


The front page of the Mail is complaining about "Remainer Universities" giving a dozen examples of how university lecturers were pro-EU before the referendum and - shock, horror - still are! Democracy apparently demands that they change their mind and get behind the collective country.

In evidence of how shocking this leftie bias is they show proof that up to 90% of academia supported Remain.

They don't seem to delve very deeply into why his might be.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> The uk economy figures
> Views?


Behind them are way too many contributing factors to allow for anything but a much caveated conclusion.

Personally I'm a little concerned about the rising levels of credit that are supporting spending in light of falling real wages. If interest rates do rise soon, as is expected, there are many who will start to feel the pinch.

To bring Brexit into it, this would not be a time when I would be confident about stretching the household budget because, whatever the actual future, there are currently more storm clouds than big blue patches on the horizon.

As far as the Brexit effect on the economy, it would be easy to suggest that the growth figure of 0.4% would be higher had the vote gone the other way, but much harder to prove to someone whose inclination was to believe differently.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Nothing sinister at all about this.:Watching
> 
> Staunch brexiteer and tory whip sends this letter to every university.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/educati...demands-list-brexit-chris-heaton-harris#img-2


Sinister indeed.

So, now the Tories are more convinced than ever that they might have finally run the country aground, they now want to try and shut the experts up.

I wonder how many more Harrowdown hills we might read about in the newspapers?

_'Don't walk the plank like I did
You will be dispensed with
When you've become
Inconvenient
Up on harrowdown hill'_


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> The front page of the Mail is complaining about "Remainer Universities" giving a dozen examples of how university lecturers were pro-EU before the referendum and - shock, horror - still are! Democracy apparently demands that they change their mind and get behind the collective country.
> 
> In evidence of how shocking this leftie bias is they show proof that up to 90% of academia supported Remain.
> 
> They don't seem to delve very deeply into why his might be.





Zaros said:


> Sinister indeed.
> 
> So, now the Tories are more convinced than ever that they might have finally run the country aground, they now want to try and shut the experts up.
> 
> ...


Authoritarianism: when facts prove you wrong, suppress the facts. We're on a very slippery slope indeed.

Have either of you seen some of the responses to said Tory's letter? Lord Bucketheads is brilliant:Hilarious

*Ben Whitham*‏@*DrBenWhitham* Oct 24

_
Of course you can access my recorded lectures @*chhcalling*. Just enrol and pay the £9,000 per year your party deems fair, like everyone else_.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

The witch hunt begins. First they target the judiciary now academics. Echo's of the past? Britain, Spain, America... one goose-step away from fascism.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Have you - or do you know anyone who has - experienced pro-Brexit bias when listening to Tory politicians?

Has anyone told you how easy it was going to be? How the negotiations would be the 'simplest in history'? How the EU would 'cave' when they saw we were serious about leaving? How a trade deal with that nice Mr Trump would usher in an age of prosperity? How the UK's 'no-ECJ' red line is the will of the people, while the EU's 'leaving means losing member benefits' red line is vindictive punishment? How the BBC, the judiciary, academia and any Remainer who dares to doubt the wisdom of Brexit is being tantamount to traitorous?

Write to DailyMail.con.uk and tell them not to be so bloody stupid.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> The witch hunt begins. First they target the judiciary now academics. Echo's of the past? Britain, Spain, America... one goose-step away from fascism.


They'll be hunting folks down who submit anti-government posts on the net next, Noush'

You could very easily be next.

I'll see you when you get here.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> Have you - or do you know anyone who has - experienced pro-Brexit bias when listening to Tory politicians?
> 
> Has anyone told you how easy it was going to be? How the negotiations would be the 'simplest in history'? How the EU would 'cave' when they saw we were serious about leaving? How a trade deal with that nice Mr Trump would usher in an age of prosperity? How the UK's 'no-ECJ' red line is the will of the people, while the EU's 'leaving means losing member benefits' red line is vindictive punishment? How the BBC, the judiciary, academia and any Remainer who dares to doubt the wisdom of Brexit is being tantamount to traitorous?
> 
> *Write to DailyMail.con.uk and tell them not to be so bloody stupid*.


Seems the Daily Mail 'inform on your lecturer email' is getting hijacked 







































































Zaros said:


> They'll be hunting folks down who submit anti-government posts on the net next, Noush'
> 
> You could very easily be next.
> 
> I'll see you when you get here.


Hahahaa I've had it haven't I.

I best get my bags packed asap lol


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Seems the Daily Mail 'inform on your lecturer email' is getting hijacked


Love them all. I might pen one myself!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Arnie83 said:


> Love them all. I might pen one myself!


I think you should :Writing lol


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)




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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

DT said:


> The uk economy figures
> Views?


As a addendum to my earlier answer ...

*"Retail sector sees significant drop in activity"*
http://www.cbi.org.uk/news/retail-sector-sees-significant-drop-in-activity/

This news out today suggests that things are slowing down as inflation begins to bite. They are more recent figures than the GDP ones which tend to have a bit of a lag. Could only be a blip, of course, but it's in line with what might be expected.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Hahahaa I've had it haven't I.
> 
> I best get my bags packed asap lol


I'm told Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are quite happy to give shelter to all British asylum seekers.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I don't profess to know every single academic at the University of Cambridge but working part time for them and being very aware of how this affects students and research, that the Vice Chancellor issued a statement to say openly that the University was against leaving the EU, and that Cambridge as a city voted by 72% to remain then I would say it doesn't take a genius to work out what view they would take if Brexit was on the agenda. For GCSE and A Level students it won't be on the curriculum for another 3 years at the least as the exam boards have only just updated their curriculum offerings for publishers to bid against this June.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I don't profess to know every single academic at the University of Cambridge but working part time for them and being very aware of how this affects students and research, that the Vice Chancellor issued a statement to say openly that the University was against leaving the EU, and that Cambridge as a city voted by 72% to remain then I would say it doesn't take a genius to work out what view they would take if Brexit was on the agenda. For GCSE and A Level students it won't be on the curriculum for another 3 years at the least as the exam boards have only just updated their curriculum offerings for publishers to bid against this June.


Do you think research grants, and therefore university staff and students will be adversely affected by Brexit, or will the government maintain their level of funding?


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Zaros said:


> I'm told Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are quite happy to give shelter to all British asylum seekers.


I'm thinking of trying the Netherlands. If only they were somewhere warmer.

I've got it; St Maarten!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Arnie83 said:


> Do you think research grants, and therefore university staff and students will be adversely affected by Brexit, or will the government maintain their level of funding?


The university predicted as such at the time but I guess that will only become apparent when some sort of negotiation has been reached - a large part of how I voted was swayed by academics over politicians of any party  . I occasionally teach at the other university here and the applications have gone down significantly from the EU because of uncertainty and this is incredibly sad, it's a great place for medicine, nursing and law education.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> I'm told Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are quite happy to give shelter to all British asylum seekers.


LOL Yeah I can imagine. They're paying us back for being so welcoming towards them after we helped destroy their countries:Meh


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Some info here @MollySmith @Arnie83 on the considerable impact of international students on the UK economy & regional jobs. I don't think a lot of brexiters realise this.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> LOL Yeah I can imagine. They're paying us back for being so welcoming towards them after we helped destroy their countries:Meh


Arnie83 considered St Maarten as his preferred destination but, to be honest, it's only a small place and I can easily see an age old problem of 'immigrants' rearing it's ugly head again. I'd hate to be regarded as one of those Brits coming over to steal their jobs, their women, their cars, and generally taking over the place.
I've also seen a problem with getting into Iraq and those other countries I mentioned. Hospitality stretches only so far......
So, just recently, I've been practicing the art of hanging from the underside of a truck's trailer. Not quite perfected it yet.....
The muscles in my arms tend to ache and burn after tens of kilometres, and I have yet to overcome my fear of staring down six rapidly rotating floatation tyres. Should I lose my grip and slip beneath them, I doubt they'd show me much mercy.
Anyways, it's well below zero and we have snow on the roads right at this moment, with more to come.
This iceman does not cometh. In fact, he goeth nowhere at all.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Arnie83 considered St Maarten as his preferred destination but, to be honest, it's only a small place and I can easily see an age old problem of 'immigrants' rearing it's ugly head again. I'd hate to be regarded as one of those Brits coming over to steal their jobs, their women, their cars, and generally taking over the place.
> I've also seen a problem with getting into Iraq and those other countries I mentioned. Hospitality stretches only so far......
> So, just recently, I've been practicing the art of hanging from the underside of a truck's trailer. Not quite perfected it yet.....
> The muscles in my arms tend to ache and burn after tens of kilometres, and I have yet to overcome my fear of staring down six rapidly rotating floatation tyres. Should I lose my grip and slip beneath them, I doubt they'd show me much mercy.
> ...


You brought to mind that great Frankie Boyle Article, Zaros x


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Shocking surge in homophobic hate crime reports since Brexit vote,


Well, I heard that we Brexit voters were white, working class, (possibly) geriatric and definitely poorly educated. Homophobic is a new one. (Makes mental note to add to list. Mental note necessarily made extremely slowly as a result of very poor university education).


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> You brought to mind that great Frankie Boyle Article, Zaros x


It makes you wonder how so many are so easily lulled by media and political lies or sedated by their TVs? But then conclude, it must be that, I'm alright 'Union' Jack attitude.

But it's only alright for now, for those who want to believe it is.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Calvine said:


> Well, I heard that we Brexit voters were white, working class, (possibly) geriatric and definitely poorly educated. Homophobic is a new one. (Makes mental note to add to list. Mental note necessarily made extremely slowly as a result of very poor university education).


Don't shoot the messenger, Calvine. We know hate crimes have soared since brexit (as was predicted). This article is specifically about the rise in homophobic crime since the result - http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/1...ium=Twittermob&Twittermob&utm_campaign=PNMOBT



Zaros said:


> It makes you wonder how so many are so easily lulled by media and political lies or sedated by their TVs? But then conclude, it must be that, I'm alright 'Union' Jack attitude.
> 
> *But it's only alright for now, for those who want to believe it is*.


There's going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people on the not to distant horizon.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Some info here @MollySmith @Arnie83 on the considerable impact of international students on the UK economy & regional jobs. I don't think a lot of brexiters realise this.


Interesting. Mind you, if 437,000 overseas students spent £5.4 bn off-campus in a year, at a rate of over £1000 per month each, then all I can say is that they don't make students like they used to!

I remember drawing my spending money out of the bank, being asked by the cashier how I wanted the money, and replying "Two fives, please."


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Calvine said:


> Well, I heard that we Brexit voters were white, working class, (possibly) geriatric and definitely poorly educated. Homophobic is a new one. (Makes mental note to add to list. Mental note necessarily made extremely slowly as a result of very poor university education).


One thing I've never quite understood is why some Leave voters assume that there is an implication of personal culpability in any report like this.

The increase is homophobic hate crimes is simply a documented, stand-alone fact. That's it.

There may be a one-way correlation between the tiny number of people who commit these crimes and the way they voted, but it certainly isn't a two way correlation and no-one has ever suggested that it is. Why would you, or anyone, assume otherwise?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> We know hate crimes have soared since brexit (as was predicted).


Hate crimes? Hatred for what and for whom?



Arnie83 said:


> The increase is homophobic hate crimes is simply a documented, stand-alone fact. That's it.


So why is Brexit even mentioned in the same sentence? Maybe obesity has increased since June 2016? I'm sure it likely has, but I would not expect to read 'Brexit' and 'obesity' in the same sentence. Maybe benefit fraud has increased since June 2016; shall we blame Brexit for that too? Animal abuse too? Let's just blame it for everything and keep the remainers happy?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> There's going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people on the not to distant horizon.


I bet you can't wait to say: 'I told you so'.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Read the article, not the headline.


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Calvine said:


> So why is Brexit even mentioned in the same sentence? Maybe obesity has increased since June 2016? I'm sure it likely has, but I would not expect to read 'Brexit' and 'obesity' in the same sentence. Maybe benefit fraud has increased since June 2016; shall we blame Brexit for that too? Let's just blame it for everything and keep the remainers happy?


Because in part, and for some, (lest you think I am referring to you), the Brexit vote was about rejection of the 'other', of those whom some people did not see as a welcome, or even an acceptable part of the society in which they want to live.

For an even fewer number of people the victory of the leave campaign was an affirmation of the way they thought. They were suddenly, in their minds, in the majority, their view was endorsed, approved, their prejudices empowered. Hate crimes against immigrants increased.

Homophobia falls very much into the same category of identifying a group as the 'other' - as we have seen repeatedly throughout history - and this perceived affirmation that their views regarding the 'other' was somehow approved gave them, in their own minds, a green light to act out their own peculiar prejudice. An increase in homophobic hate crimes was the unsurprising result.

It isn't rocket science, and it most certainly is not an attack or an implication against the absolutely vast majority of leave voters who would have no such prejudice and would never contemplate any such activity, either regarding immigrants or homosexuals.


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

[QUOTE="Arnie83, post: 1065012848, member: 1420416

It isn't rocket science, and it most certainly is not an attack or an implication against the absolutely vast majority of leave voters who would have no such prejudice and would never contemplate any such activity, either regarding immigrants or homosexuals.[/QUOTE]

Why then have we leavers been called racist, homophobic, mindless and other not so nice names on any Brexic thread on this forum by many remainers
I, and other leavers posting on here are not any of those things and just want what we consider the best for our country and families


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

Bisbow said:


> Why then have we leavers been called racist, homophobic, mindless and other not so nice names on any Brexic thread on this forum by many remainers
> I, and other leavers posting on here are not any of those things and just want what we consider the best for our country and families


I haven't seen those posts, but if anyone has called all leavers racists, homophobes, mindless etc, then that poster is an idiot.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Bisbow said:


> Why then have we leavers been called racist, homophobic, mindless and other not so nice names on any Brexic thread on this forum by many remainers
> I, and other leavers posting on here are not any of those things and just want what we consider the best for our country and families


It's been pointed out that the leave campaign was based on nationalism including those things. That is simply the truth. It's also true that this direction was accepted and applauded by many of those voting leave. I have seen very little condemnation, if any, of the scapegoating of minorities. Instead all I have seen is "I am not...." and "how dare you call me".


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Arnie83 said:


> it most certainly is not an attack or an implication against the absolutely vast majority of leave voters


So why mention Brexit and homophobia in the same breath; that's the bit I don't understand. The title of the thread is (supposedly) 'Deal or No Deal', so I'm not sure why Noushka has to bring in homophobia which has nothing to do with any deal. Not surprised @stockwellcat. has bolted. There's no logic to this thread when people can come out with any old crap.



noushka05 said:


> one goose-step away from fascism.


 And this doesn't encourage me to hang around; I actually find it quite offensive (as well as ridiculous).


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## Arnie83 (Dec 6, 2014)

More in keeping with a deal / no deal thread, Boris has promised the EU citizens' rights in the UK will be protected, which is more than May has said.

In a speech to the Belvedere Forum on Polish-UK relations, a video from which was posted on the Polish Embassy twitter, he said

"And I have only one message for you all tonight: you are loved, you are welcome, your rights will be protected whatever happens. Yes. You are recording this? Your rights will be protected whatever happens."​
Given that EU citizens have more rights in the UK than do British citizens it will be interesting to see what the current Prime Minister says about the promise from her would-be successor.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Calvine said:


> Hate crimes? Hatred for what and for whom?
> 
> So why is Brexit even mentioned in the same sentence? Maybe obesity has increased since June 2016? I'm sure it likely has, but I would not expect to read 'Brexit' and 'obesity' in the same sentence. Maybe benefit fraud has increased since June 2016; shall we blame Brexit for that too? Animal abuse too? Let's just blame it for everything and keep the remainers happy?


Hatred for minorities. Official Home Office figures showed there was a 29% increase in hate crimes after the vote . The impact of the vote on race hate was foreseeable in light of the campaign rhetoric - see this article from June last year - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/schona-jolly/eu-referendum_b_10615024.html?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

Hatemongers like Farage, Johnson and the rest of the Vote Leave campaign have much to answer for.



Calvine said:


> I bet you can't wait to say: 'I told you so'.


You have got to be joking. The consequences of brexit won't just affect the people who voted for it you know? - it will affect me, my loved ones and things I care about. I'm certainly not enjoying seeing it all unravel.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Closed for Moderation....

:Locktopic


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