# Do you allow your dog(s) to catch rabbits?



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

As per title really - do you allow your dog(s) to catch rabbits?

My friend called round with her dog today and this evening we went out for a walk with them and three of mine.

Not too long into the walk, Alfie went off after a rabbit and my friend starting screaming at me to look what he has doing, get him back etc. I must admit I was quite taken back by her reaction and was a little too stunned to do anything! So Alfie caught the rabbit, and brought it back to me.

My friend again, promptly starting screaming about how I could allow him to do that, how awful it was, etc etc.

Now - Alfie very regularly catches rabbits. He will recall mid-chase if asked, and is very efficient - the rabbits are dead in an instant. Harvey and Blue will also, albeit less often, catch rabbits - they too will recall whilst chasing, and kill the rabbits very quickly. They are only able to catch the myxy rabbits however - Alfie is the only one fast enough to catch the healthy ones.

This is all done either on my land, or on land where we have permission - the fields surrounding my house are owned by the farmer down the road, we've lived here for years, and known him years too - and he's said it's doing him a favour.

The dogs eat all the rabbits they catch, its staple part of their diet. 

Once back at home, my friend remained quite upset by the whole thing - I know it's not something particularly pleasant to see if you aren't used to it, and I did feel a bit bad 

But I was just wondering what the general view on this was amongst dog folk - do you allow your dog(s) to catch rabbits?


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

I havent been in that position, in fact quite coincidentally rolo actually found and sniffed a dead one this afternoon, but only because his tennis ball landed on it.

He recalled and we didnt let him back near it as there were a few flies around. I am not sure i want mine to start chasing and killing rabbits cos i dont want the possibility that they may run off in chase, but it sounds like in your case it isnt a problem and although i think if i was seeing it for the first time i would find it quite hard, i would respect that for them and you it was okay.

Just hope mine dont get in the habit of it!


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## Mophie (Sep 20, 2011)

Personally I don't - however we have no land around us where it would be allowed and Donnie lollops so they always hear him. However my parents taken their cairn cross out most weekends and he and a friends JRT regularly catch rabbits. If its their natural instinct and you have agreement then I have no issue with it at all.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't but that's only because I think it would make their prey drive worse. If I could control it & recall them mid chase (as you can) then I wouldn't have a problem with it at all tbh.

Roxy caught & klilled a red legged partridge that made the mistake of coming in to our garden - my OH was chuffed to bits as he had it for tea


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I definitely would if I thought they'd come back afterwards. It's a quick kill, just a shake and the neck is broken and it wouldn't be just for sport as the dogs would eat it. I don't agree with hunting for sport but for food I have no problems and lets face it there are far too many rabbits anyway.

Anyone who thinks this is a cruel way to die should take a look at abattoirs, now they are gruesome.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

No, it's against the law, and if you were caught, you could be prosecuted. You can flush ground game, but you must be prepared to shoot it, so your dogs have to be steady to flush.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

If it was on my own land or had permission like you have, then yes I would let my dog catch rabbits. HOWEVER I would like to see how the rabbit is caught and how he kills it, if he shakes it and shakes it and shakes it I wouldn't let him. But if it's a nice quick kill then I don't see a problem with it, if the rabbit looks healthy I'll let him eat it.


It's not against the law on your own land.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, it's against the law, and if you were caught, you could be prosecuted. You can flush ground game, but you must be prepared to shoot it, so your dogs have to be steady to flush.


''Hunting rats and rabbits - These can be hunted on your own land, or (with the permission of the occupier or owner) on other land''

Taken from Hunting with dogs : Directgov - Environment and greener living


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> No, it's against the law, and if you were caught, you could be prosecuted.


It's not against the law to hunt rabbits with at most 2 dogs and with permission from the landowner. You don't have to shoot the rabbits. Rats and Rabbits have their own separate law.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Maya can only catch Myxy ones so yes I do.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Tummel loves to chase them...he's never caught one yet and the one time he met a myxi rabbit he ignored it  I have permission for him to catch them if he can as theres millions of them in that bit of land but as i said he can't catch them and once he gets tired he just lies down and watches them  I doubt he'd know what to do if he did corner one as he's just a big softy but he does love eating them


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Lexi has very little prey drive and Bosleys prey drive is a little out of control...so I don't allow him to because he looses all concentration on me and will not recall.
However I don't mind the idea of it.....i just don't think it is right for my dogs from a "having control" perspective.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, it's against the law, and if you were caught, you could be prosecuted. You can flush ground game, but you must be prepared to shoot it, so your dogs have to be steady to flush.


Its not against the law to hunt rabbits, they and rats are the only animal that CAN be leagally hunted with dogs as long as you have permission from the land owner.

I don't let mine catch rabbits but then we don't have rabbits in the middle of the town but I have been out with my friends lurchers and whippets on her permission.

My Button did catch a rat in the garden the other week though and killed that.:thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SixStar said:


> ''Hunting rats and rabbits - These can be hunted on your own land, or (with the permission of the occupier or owner) on other land''
> 
> Taken from Hunting with dogs : Directgov - Environment and greener living


Do you have permission then?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

If there were any rabbits round here and the boys were quick enough and not so clumsy then yes definitely i would let them and would take it home for them to eat aswell


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

I allow Piper to chase but only because I know she won't catch them. The one time she did (was a baby, put her head in the bush and came out with it) she brought it to me and dropped it at my feet and it ran off. She did come across a myxy rabbit once, sniffed and walked off. If it doesnt run, she's not interested.

I wouldn't have an issue if the kill was clean and she ate it, but i haven't seen that yet either!


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Do you have permission then?


Yes, as I said in my opening post - it's either done on my own land, or on land where I have written permission from the owner.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Also please note:

_Under the Hunting Act 2004, it is illegal to hunt wild mammals with a dog in England and Wales (there are some exceptions to this). 'Hunting' includes using one or more dogs to chase a wild mammal with the intention of catching or killing it._

You may walk along a path and not have the intention of killing or catching a wild animal, but how do you prove your dog was under control? Simple answer is you don't, and for those with pet dogs, can you ensure a clean kill? Could you kill yourself if your dogs didn't??


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, it's against the law, and if you were caught, you could be prosecuted. You can flush ground game, but you must be prepared to shoot it, so your dogs have to be steady to flush.


Not with rabbits and rats I think you will find.


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## kaz25 (Aug 9, 2011)

Benny has only ever picked up a baby rabbit that hopped out the grass and sat next to him  he did however put it back down when it moved and squeeled. The poor thing was still sat in the same place when we were up the other side of the hill - probably died from shock! He does seem to chase myxi rabbits though - the others all manage to get away from him. I've always been wary of him with myxis though as not sure if they can harm him because they are diseased??


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## kat&molly (Mar 2, 2011)

If I was in your position then yes I probably would allow it.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't let mine chase anything. They will recall if I shout them, but if I started letting them run after rabbits, I'd be too scared they would run rather than recall if a deer ran out again.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SixStar said:


> Yes, as I said in my opening post - it's either done on my own land, or on land where I have written permission from the owner.


So you would shoot them?

Because if not, you're breaking the law:

Exemptions in the Hunting Act allow the following activities to take place in limited circumstances: stalking and flushing out; use of a dog below ground, in the course of stalking and flushing out, to protect birds being kept or preserved for shooting; hunting rats and rabbits; retrieval of hares which have been shot; falconry; recapture of wild mammals; and research and observation.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Also please note:
> 
> _Under the Hunting Act 2004, it is illegal to hunt wild mammals with a dog in England and Wales (there are some exceptions to this). 'Hunting' includes using one or more dogs to chase a wild mammal with the intention of catching or killing it._
> 
> You may walk along a path and not have the intention of killing or catching a wild animal, but how do you prove your dog was under control? Simple answer is you don't, and for those with pet dogs, can you ensure a clean kill? Could you kill yourself if your dogs didn't??


But if your dog was just chasing you wouldn't be setting out to hunt.
You could be accused of have a dog out of control but not of any offense under the hunting act


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Do you have permission then?


Says so in the first post and tbh as long as you aren't worrying game or stock then I think most farmers would be glad of it, though obviously it's polite to ask.

I'd rather mine had a bunny than a supermarket chicken for dinner because I know the former has had the best life and the least stressful death, no matter how the chicken was raised. I wouldn't let them chase just for sport and only on a friends land.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So you would shoot them?
> 
> Because if not, you're breaking the law:
> 
> Exemptions in the Hunting Act *allow* the following activities to take place in limited circumstances: stalking and flushing out; use of a dog below ground, in the course of stalking and flushing out, to protect birds being kept or preserved for shooting; *hunting rats and rabbits*; retrieval of hares which have been shot; falconry; recapture of wild mammals; and research and observation.


Please read this - Hunting with dogs : Directgov - Environment and greener living

Hunting rats and rabbits is legal on your own land, or on land where you have permission - as it says in your own link


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Millies bum is to big lol She couldnt catch anything.

IF she smells something and tries to chase then we use it as a chance to practise recall whilst she is distracted :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Doesn't matter I'm afraid, if you were walking and suddenly noticed you were in a field of sheep, is it your fault or the sheeps fault that your recall isn't good enough?


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

My friend used to know someone whose whippet killed a muntjack deer in front of a farmer. The person was walking along a path with his dogs walking off lead but by his side when the deer jumped out of the hedge in front of the dog. The whippet killed it instantly. The farmer just said he had seen the man walking down the path and it was obvious he wasn't working them and it was an accident.

It is up to them to prove you were hunting intentionally and they need substancial evidence for a prosecution to be carried out. How do you think the hunts get away with the dogs going after a fox when they are drag hunting?


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I have a freezer full of rabbits that were caught by one of my dogs, they were all caught on my land, and yes, sometimes I allow him to eat his catch there and then. They are killed instantly, and he can catch 3-4 a day - consequently the freezer's almost full!

I can call them back from a chase, but I don't. I do not however allow my dogs to chase anything when they are out on their walk.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SixStar said:


> Please read this - Hunting with dogs : Directgov - Environment and greener living
> 
> Hunting rats and rabbits is legal on your own land, or on land where you have permission - as it says in your own link


I think you need to take a re-peek at the law to make sure you're in compliance, not a criticism, but the law is there for a reason, to ensure animals are not chased and suffer. After all, why was fox hunting banned?

The law states:

Exemptions in the Hunting Act allow the following activities to take place in limited circumstances: stalking and flushing out; use of a dog below ground, in the course of stalking and flushing out, to protect birds being kept or preserved for shooting; hunting rats and rabbits; retrieval of hares which have been shot; falconry; recapture of wild mammals; and research and observation.

Now as far as I'm aware, hunting of rabbits is not done by someone walking their dog who happens upon a rabbit, it's done by people who set out purse nets and use their dogs to flush the game. Why? Because they make bl**dy good meal, hunting and killing game for no reason is just pointless to me, and irresponsible. Sorry if that sounds harsh.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think you need to take a re-peek at the law to make sure you're in compliance, not a criticism, but the law is there for a reason, to ensure animals are not chased and suffer. After all, why was fox hunting banned?
> 
> The law states:
> 
> ...


Oh yes I quite agree, hunting and killing for no reason is irresponsible - the rabbits don't go to waste - they're eaten, after being killed quickly and efficiently. As I've said a couple of times, this is on my own land, or on land where I have permission from the landowner, which makes it perfectly legal.

I can recall my dogs mid-chase, and I don't allow them to catch everytime - we certainly don't 'set out' to do it, nor do they do it everyday. No nets are set or anything like that! If the dogs see a rabbit, they'll often chase it - if it's somewhere legal (my land or the land I have permission for), I let them catch it if they can.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Now as far as I'm aware, hunting of rabbits is not done by someone walking their dog who happens upon a rabbit, it's done by people who set out purse nets and use their dogs to flush the game. Why? Because they make bl**dy good meal, hunting and killing game for no reason is just pointless to me, and irresponsible. Sorry if that sounds harsh.


I do agree although I must what about myxy rabbits? (don't belive you can eat them and don't fancy trying either :lol: ) The only ones Maya can catch pretty much either run towards her, in circles or don't run at all.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm fine with Ziggy catching and killing (and eating) rabbits - we lived on a farm (as the farmer's tenant) and the rabbit population was way too high, the farmer was losing a lot of grass to them. He was glad to have her kill some. We've moved away now and Zig is too old and slow these days.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

My parents have rabbit proof fencing around their property (around 3 acres) but somehow the b*ggas get in, so they do allow their Border Terrier to catch and kill rabbits within the boundary of their property. Not sure what they do with the rabbits that she kills, whether she eats them or not but I really don't see the problem with controlling the numbers in a specific area.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> I do agree although I must what about myxy rabbits? (don't belive you can eat them and don't fancy trying either :lol: ) The only ones Maya can catch pretty much either run towards her, in circles or don't run at all.


Myxy doesn't affect humans, only rabbits 

Right, as I read it, the hunting act is for the good of the animal, it is not for a dog walker who happens upon *whatever* and decides to allow their dog to chase it and kill it. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but no, that's not hunting for me, you don't take into account the local population (necessarily) and it's just a jolly for your dog. Not good enough.

Reason why I'm particularly peeved tonight, the OH has come back after sweeping up on a grouse moor, and has two leverets some feckin idiots decided to train their dogs on, poor things are ragged to death, literally. So PLEASE do not let your dogs chase after game, it isn't a chuffin game it is life and death, and unless you are prepared to face the sharp end of nature leave well alone!!!


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think you need to take a re-peek at the law to make sure you're in compliance, not a criticism, but the law is there for a reason, to ensure animals are not chased and suffer. After all, why was fox hunting banned?
> 
> The law states:
> 
> ...


I disagree. As the law stands it is perfectly legal to hunt rats and rabbits with dogs with permission. The op has already stated that the rabbits caught are eaten so they don't go to waste. I've seen bunnies suffer immensely from gunshot wounds so it's far from perfect (out with a farmer friend - I don't shoot). When my dogs bring home a rabbit (that they've chased for 30 secs and killed instantly) for themselves that saves me going to the shop to buy a chicken that ultamately spent its last moments being fasted, rounded up by strange men, picked up by the legs and shoved in a tiny crate, driven miles to the abattoir and strung up by the legs again to have it's throat cut - not sure that's less stressful. As a member of BASC, i'm sure you're aware of the factory farming, wastage, woundings and illegal wildlife control that occurs in the game industry and to me that dwarfs any welfare issues involved in hunting rabbits with dogs.


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## Zoej82 (Apr 19, 2011)

personally i'm VERY glad Ripley doesn't actually seem interested in catching rabbits..i thought she would be but she purely likes to chase them.

She's been out on walks with a little Border Terrier who catches rabbits and she's just not interested.

I don't like dogs catching rabbits. but it is especially in terriers for example in their instinct

If Ripley did like catching Rabbits i'd personally walk her where i knew there were no rabbits. she's more interested in catching waterfowl. so she has regular baths lol and is luckily never quick enough to catch any birds.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I am not disagreeing with it, I'm very much pro hunting and shooting (please read my siggy) but when fox hunting has been banned because it is deemed cruel to subject an animal to the chase, why is it acceptable to allow a pet dog to chase and kill a wild rabbit?


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

bruno caught a chicken once,yes a chicken...long story......once caught he stood there sniffing it,no harm to the chicken


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

kaz25 said:


> I've always been wary of him with myxis though as not sure if they can harm him because they are diseased??





SpringerHusky said:


> I do agree although I must what about myxy rabbits? (don't belive you can eat them and don't fancy trying either :lol: ) The only ones Maya can catch pretty much either run towards her, in circles or don't run at all.


Myxy is not transferable to dogs or people.

I allow big dog to hunt at the yard (76 acres and yes, permission from my yard owner, forceful encouragement, in fact). He has done in the woods but will recall. The babies don't really hunt, don't think they know what to do. 

Ethically, I think it's fine for dogs to chase and kill bunnies, even if they don't then eat them. We are overrun at the yard and it's frankly dangerous for the horses to be hoonning round and get a foot stuck in a bl**dy rabbit hole.


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## AmberNero (Jun 6, 2010)

Don't have an issue with other people doing it for food, but not for sport. If mine were interested I still wouldn't let them chase because of the risk of injury as well as the fact that I'm a rubbish cook and wouldn't know how to skin a rabbit!


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

We dont let grizz catch rabbits however he is a bit bumbly with his run and i dont know if he is that fast! he once chased one and it stopped and froze it was so cute bunny and grizz just stood nose to nose - bunny then hopped away.
I would never let him catch a rabbit if he was able to hubby however is the opposite and would let him but its very rarely he sees and chases quick enough to get anywhere!!


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am not disagreeing with it, I'm very much pro hunting and shooting (please read my siggy) but when fox hunting has been banned because it is deemed cruel to subject an animal to the chase, why is it acceptable to allow a pet dog to chase and kill a wild rabbit?


As far as I know, hounds chase foxes for long periods, and then a pack absolutely tear them to shreds.

I can only speak for my dogs - but they chase a rabbit for about 30 seconds, and kill extremely quickly and IMO, humanely - there is never even any blood. It's not for fun, it's not for sport, nothing goes to waste - they eat everything.

I would never in a million years allow the chasing of foxes, deers, sheep etc. If I so much as see them thinking about giving chase to any of those, theyre recalled and kept to heel until safe to be released again.

In some situations it may be wrong - I don't like the thought of dogs chasing rabbits merely for fun, or catching them and shaking them about, injuring them but not killing, or taking a long time to kill them, or leave them once killed.

But in my situation, like I said, my dogs catch and kill very quickly and efficiently, on perfectly legal grounds, and waste none of their catch - and I see absolutely no problem with that at all


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

cinammontoast said:


> Myxy is not transferable to dogs or people.
> 
> I allow big dog to hunt at the yard (76 acres and yes, permission from my yard owner, forceful encouragement, in fact). He has done in the woods but will recall. The babies don't really hunt, don't think they know what to do.
> 
> Ethically, I thinkits fine for dogs to chase and kill bunnies, even if they don't then eat them. We are overrun at the yard and it's frankly dangerous for the horses to be hoonning round and get a foot stuck in a bl**dy rabbit hole.


So why not foxes?

as a proviso, I don't know whether you're pro or anti fox hunting, but if it's ok to hunt bunnies with dogs, why not foxes?

And btw, I'm neither for nor against, before anyone makes that assumption, but I find it unbelievable that it's ok to hunt one species with dogs and not another. Take for instance the leverets the OH had to bury tonight, battered and feckin bruised by inept dogs not used to hunting, obviously picked up and used for bait, fabulous. And just as great, let's get all pet dogs hunting game because they know what to do, right? No the do not, and please do not think they do!!!

Sorry to the OP but your dogs may know, others don't, and that's what worries me!!


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So why not foxes?
> 
> as a proviso, I don't know whether you're pro or anti fox hunting, but if it's ok to hunt bunnies with dogs, why not foxes?
> 
> ...


would you eat a fox?


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I wouldnt encourage my lot to chase and kill rabbits. None of them are that good on recall I could get them to break off mid chase, esp Hannah hound dog!
Also mine are all small enough to get down a rabbit hole and stupid enough to get stuck there, besides which there would be a good chance the rabbit would outweigh them and duff them up!:scared:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

skyblue said:


> would you eat a fox?


Does your dog know the difference?


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

The rabbits would be more likely to chase my dog....either that or they'd invite him in as one of their own 

With my past dogs that would have been more that way inclined- no I didn't.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SixStar said:


> As far as I know, hounds chase foxes for long periods, and then a pack absolutely tear them to shreds.
> 
> I can only speak for my dogs - but they chase a rabbit for about 30 seconds, and kill extremely quickly and IMO, humanely - there is never even any blood. It's not for fun, it's not for sport, nothing goes to waste - they eat everything.
> 
> ...


So it's ok to chase bunnies, but not deer, foxes or anything else the media cons you into thinking suffers more than bunnies?

I'm sorry, but really, dogs are carnivores, they chase for the kill and the same fear is felt by any animal, if it's felt, so why is it acceptable just because it's a bunny?

PS check those guidelines because if your dogs do not despatch said bunny you do need to be able to kill cleanly either by hand or shooting, and please do, a long drawn out death is not deserved by anything really ....


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am not disagreeing with it, I'm very much pro hunting and shooting (please read my siggy) but when fox hunting has been banned because it is deemed cruel to subject an animal to the chase, why is it acceptable to allow a pet dog to chase and kill a wild rabbit?


I did read it which is why I thought your response was strange. I'm against hunting foxes with hounds (i'm also pretty against alot of gamebird shoots  - I think hunting for sport or hunting released animals is disgusting personally) because to me it's a totally different game to chase a wild canid for miles across country almost purely for sport than it is to chase a small prey animal for the pot or for the dog for less a minute. Most landowners want rid of rabbits and they are likely to meet a similarly sticky end anyway. They are also a non native pest species so their population isn't of concern - that's why mixy was introduced. Doesn't matter if it's a pet dog as long as the owner has permission and knows what they're doing. I also don't really see the point of throwing the book at someone because their dog accidently caught one - the other week I had a hare literally RUN INTO my bedlington while he was on a lead, it had no chance and there was nothing I could do. If you want to highlight welfare issues then you are better off looking at livestock farming than at the few bunnies caught by dogs.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

cinammontoast said:


> Myxy is not transferable to dogs or people.
> 
> I allow big dog to hunt at the yard (76 acres and yes, permission from my yard owner, forceful encouragement, in fact). He has done in the woods but will recall. The babies don't really hunt, don't think they know what to do.
> 
> Ethically, I think it's fine for dogs to chase and kill bunnies, even if they don't then eat them. We are overrun at the yard and it's frankly dangerous for the horses to be hoonning round and get a foot stuck in a bl**dy rabbit hole.


My friend took me to one farm were she has permission to hunt. We walked across a field that was infested with rabbit burrows. She told me the farmer could no longer use the land. If he took a tractor on it it would sink and he couldn't use it for grazing as there was so many holes in it. You could feel the land sinking as you walked over it. Unfortunately there is only so much she can do in clearing this land as some of the damage had been caused by hares. She has to be able to call her dogs off a chase if they should start to chase a hare.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cats were a non-native species introduced before bunnies, so perhaps it's ok then if we hunt cats?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So it's ok to chase bunnies, but not deer, foxes or anything else the media cons you into thinking suffers more than bunnies?
> 
> I'm sorry, but really, dogs are carnivores, they chase for the kill and the same fear is felt by any animal, if it's felt, so why is it acceptable just because it's a bunny?
> 
> PS check those guidelines because if your dogs do not despatch said bunny you do need to be able to kill cleanly either by hand or shooting, and please do, a long drawn out death is not deserved by anything really ....


For starters, because hunting rabbits is legal on the land I use - hunting foxes, deer or hare isn't, and I don't want to break the law, so obviously I wouldn't allow that.

I'm confident my dogs can quickly and cleanly kill a rabbit - if they couldn't I wouldn't allow it (although I can do it by hand myself if required). The rabbits die quickly and more humanely than any meat shot or killed by an abattoir.

Again, I can only speak for myself and my dogs. We know what we are doing  were well within the law, and they kill efficiently and quickly, and *if* for whatever reason, one time they didnt finish the job, I quickly can.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> I did read it which is why I thought your response was strange. I'm against hunting foxes with hounds (i'm also pretty against alot of gamebird shoots  - I think hunting for sport or hunting released animals is disgusting personally) because to me it's a totally different game to chase a wild canid for miles across country almost purely for sport than it is to chase a small prey animal for the pot or for the dog for less a minute. Most landowners want rid of rabbits and they are likely to meet a similarly sticky end anyway. They are also a non native pest species so their population isn't of concern - that's why mixy was introduced. Doesn't matter if it's a pet dog as long as the owner has permission and knows what they're doing. I also don't really see the point of throwing the book at someone because their dog accidently caught one - the other week I had a hare literally RUN INTO my bedlington while he was on a lead, it had no chance and there was nothing I could do. If you want to highlight welfare issues then you are better off looking at livestock farming than at the few bunnies caught by dogs.


Ok, I'm sorry, but your answer reads as though what the heck, if it suffers it suffers, and by crikey (love that term) that is bl**dy well against anything hunting and shooting I stand for. So it don't wash with me, sorry, whether it's a rabbit, fox or rat, it all feels the same if you hunt them do the decency to hunt correctly and DO NOT let them suffer!!


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Cats were a non-native species introduced before bunnies, so perhaps it's ok then if we hunt cats?


I don't really like cats and they cause a hell of alot of damage to wildlife but they are peoples pets and there is no reason at all to be hunting them with dogs


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

So hunting rabbits, a secondary species to the introduction of cats, is ok then, we can kill them with our pet dogs?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2011)

Millie would chase them quite successfully... Buster on the other hand would cower from them and whine if a rabbit ran past him :lol:

dead rabbits however if they don't have legs or a head Buster thinks its fair game  my boy is a wimp


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Can i ask a stupid question, for those that do let their dogs hunt rabbits, those with little dogs, do they ever try and go down the rabbit burrows?
This is one thing that concerns me with Bos him disappearing off into rabbit holes.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can i ask a stupid question, for those that do let their dogs hunt rabbits, those with little dogs, do they ever try and go down the rabbit burrows?
> This is one thing that concerns me with Bos him disappearing off into rabbit holes.


No, my Westie doesn't. He's never even tried it, if the bunnies go down, he gives up. I wouldn't allow it either.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can i ask a stupid question, for those that do let their dogs hunt rabbits, those with little dogs, do they ever try and go down the rabbit burrows?
> This is one thing that concerns me with Bos him disappearing off into rabbit holes.


One reason I'm so perturbed by the OP, however, will try and respond. When given a permission to hunt rabbits, most people will have a look to see where to set purse nets, and will work with a team of ferrets and whippets or lurchers. Terriers are more rat work as I understand it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> Can i ask a stupid question, for those that do let their dogs hunt rabbits, those with little dogs, do they ever try and go down the rabbit burrows?
> This is one thing that concerns me with Bos him disappearing off into rabbit holes.


Now that is a worry.
While most dogs wouldn't get down a rabbit burrow, small ones could get into a fox earth or god forbid a Badger sett. They would then be breaking the law!!!


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, I'm sorry, but your answer reads as though what the heck, if it suffers it suffers, and by crikey (love that term) that is bl**dy well against anything hunting and shooting I stand for. So it don't wash with me, sorry, whether it's a rabbit, fox or rat, it all feels the same if you hunt them do the decency to hunt correctly and DO NOT let them suffer!!


Sorry, I have no idea where you got any that from in my post. Most we kill things suffer to a degree when they die (sorry to keep bringing it up but have you ever followed a chicken from farm to slaughter? because it's not pretty) but there is a degree of suffering we accept. I'm actually a dietary vegan - I don't eat any animal products at all, mostly because I don't think the livestock industry could ever live up to my utopian standards- that's how much I care about suffering, so if you think otherwise you are pretty damn mistaken 

Unfortunately my dogs are carnivores and therefore they eat meat. I know how to work dogs on rabbits, i've been out since I was 4 with my grandad. I also care immensely about their suffering and I believe their suffering is minimal.

If you told me you told me you planned to chase a rabbit for 5 hours across country with a pack of hounds and horses - I would be disgusted. If you told me that you were going to rear 3000 rabbits in a shed, release them into a habitat that can't support them, kill of all the native predators, shoot them all and bury them in a pit - I would be disgusted. If you put 3000 rabbits in a shed, left them to walk around in their of feaces for weeks, fattened them so fast that their joints gave in and then slaughtered them in a less than humane way - I would be disgusted. If you told me you were going out with a dog to kill 3 rabbits that have lived all their lives outdoors with no restrictions on their welfare and the whole chase and kill took 30 seconds - I would say there are worse things


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> One reason I'm so perturbed by the OP, however, will try and respond. When given a permission to hunt rabbits, most people will have a look to see where to set purse nets, and will work with a team of ferrets and whippets or lurchers. Terriers are more rat work as I understand it.


Sorry, why are you uneasy with my actions? 

My dogs - mainly my Westie - legally and very humanely catch rabbits. He's very fit and agile and able to catch them, and kills effectively as I've stated numerous times.

I'm concerned you're thinking that I am someone that doesn't know what I am doing, and letting my dogs do as they want. Please understand this is not the case - I have lived in the countryside my whole life, out of shoots every weekend with my father from as young as I can remember. I'm now nearly 60 years old - and have been doing this many, many years. Responsibly and sensibly, and always legally and humanely.

Two of mine will only catch myxy rabbits (doing them a favour really) - only one is able to catch healthy ones. Two of my dogs aren't allowed whatsoever - they couldn't do the job efficiently, and I couldn't recall them mid-chase, so obviously theyre just simply not allowed.

I am not someone willy nilly going out and letting my dogs run amok, catching what they want. We do things the right way, we know what we are doing, and I have control of my dogs at all times.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> chase a rabbit for 5 hours across country with a pack of hounds and horses


I don't know many horses and rabbits who could run across country for 5 hours.  Well, I don't know any. I think I know a dog who could though... *looks at elles*, but she's not allowed to.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So why not foxes?
> 
> as a proviso, I don't know whether you're pro or anti fox hunting, but if it's ok to hunt bunnies with dogs, why not foxes?


Doesn't matter what my stance on foxes is, we have very few at the yard. What winds me up is the thought of my horse breaking a leg and having to be PTS because of the over population of rabbits. I would love a proper cull but the yard owner's aim is decidedly iffy. We're hoping to get in a falconer for the pigeons that freak out the horses in the indoor arena: I'd rather not be thrown because of their dive bombing. I have no idea if that's legal?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> Sorry, I have no idea where you got any that from in my post. Most we kill things suffer to a degree when they die (sorry to keep bringing it up but have you ever followed a chicken from farm to slaughter? because it's not pretty) but there is a degree of suffering we accept. I'm actually a dietary vegan - I don't eat any animal products at all, mostly because I don't think the livestock industry could ever live up to my utopian standards- that's how much I care about suffering, so if you think otherwise you are pretty damn mistaken
> 
> Unfortunately my dogs are carnivores and therefore they eat meat. I know how to work dogs on rabbits, i've been out since I was 4 with my grandad. I also care immensely about their suffering and I believe their suffering is minimal.
> 
> If you told me you told me you planned to chase a rabbit for 5 hours across country with a pack of hounds and horses - I would be disgusted. If you told me that you were going to rear 3000 rabbits in a shed, release them into a habitat that can't support them, kill of all the native predators, shoot them all and bury them in a pit - I would be disgusted. If you put 3000 rabbits in a shed, left them to walk around in their of feaces for weeks, fattened them so fast that their joints gave in and then slaughtered them in a less than humane way - I would be disgusted. If you told me you were going out with a dog to kill 3 rabbits that have lived all their lives outdoors with no restrictions on their welfare and the whole chase and kill took 30 seconds - I would say there are worse things


Ok explain to me the difference, how does one prey item expect to be hunted for a long period of time, as opposed to another?



SixStar said:


> Sorry, why are you uneasy with my actions?
> 
> My dogs - mainly my Westie - legally and very humanely catch rabbits. He's very fit and agile and able to catch them, and kills effectively as I've stated numerous times.
> 
> ...


I think I'm right in saying, and am still checking with friends, but you are ok to flush game, but to despatch game, if you are hunting with dogs you have to shoot the flushed game before the dogs get to them.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So hunting rabbits, a secondary species to the introduction of cats, is ok then, we can kill them with our pet dogs?


I my opinion yes, because there is a reason to and the alternative (shooting) isn't much, if at all better. There's a video on youtube of the raveningham hare shoot that shows this quite well. A rabbit shot on it's back end will only die when you get over to it to break its neck, do you not think it suffers in that time?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> I my opinion yes, because there is a reason to and the alternative (shooting) isn't much, if at all better. There's a video on youtube of the raveningham hare shoot that shows this quite well. A rabbit shot on it's back end will only die when you get over to it to break its neck, do you not think it suffers in that time?


Shows the ignorance inherant in the system!! B*****llocks, to be quite frank, any suffering of any animal is not what anyone shooting or hunting is about, the fact that you are prepared to accept that level of suffering speaks volumes. And for your information most people I know don't shoot hares for that reason, and guess where the best and healthiest population of hares were, that's right, on hare coursing grounds, but then folk never understood that either, most people think it's about killing the hares when it ain't at all!!!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think I'm right in saying, and am still checking with friends, but you are ok to flush game, but to despatch game, if you are hunting with dogs you have to shoot the flushed game before the dogs get to them.


But you have already mentioned ferreting with long dogs.
What's the difference?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> But you have already mentioned ferreting with long dogs.
> What's the difference?


Between setting up to catch and kill, or just allow a pet dog to pursue and possibly kill? surely you can see that difference?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Just to throw a complication into the mix...

What about grey squirrels?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think I'm right in saying, and am still checking with friends, but you are ok to flush game, but to despatch game, if you are hunting with dogs you have to shoot the flushed game before the dogs get to them.


I shall triple check this then too, just to make sure, thank you  Obviously if this is the case, we shall stop immediately - don't think I should be trusted with a gun!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Between setting up to catch and kill, or just allow a pet dog to pursue and possibly kill? surely you can see that difference?


If that's legal then other forms of dog on rabbit would be 
But all here have said they are experienced country people. That includes me. I don't understand why you think you know better?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SixStar said:


> I shall triple check this then too, just to make sure, thank you  Obviously if this is the case, we shall stop immediately - don't think I should be trusted with a gun!


Please do, and err on the side of caution, because the law in this instance is an ass, and often comes down on the hard side of the fence!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> If that's legal then other forms of dog on rabbit would be
> But all here have said they are experienced country people. That includes me. I don't understand why you think you know better?


Obviously because I've said so, oh no, wait I haven't, what a bummer!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry, but I feel my ignore list growing, I've found it ever so useful of late and I just feel this may be one reason to expand it, tata for now!


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok explain to me the difference, how does one prey item expect to be hunted for a long period of time, as opposed to another?


It doesn't but after 5 hours the fox thats been hounded and chased for that period of time is going to be under far more stress both mentally and physically than the rabbit that has been run for 30 seconds. Its the differnce between a drawn out sport and a quick dispatch for the table or pest control. Would you prefer the animal that produced your beef to have been through a slaughter house than a bull fight? Because that's a similar differnce in terms of animal welfare and human intention.



> I think I'm right in saying, and am still checking with friends, but you are ok to flush game, but to despatch game, if you are hunting with dogs you have to shoot the flushed game before the dogs get to them.


If it's rats or rabbits then it's legal with two dogs for them to make the kill. Most rats are flushed with smoke for terrier work.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> Exemptions in the Hunting Act allow the following activities to take place in limited circumstances:
> 
> stalking and flushing out;
> 
> ...


From your quote. It does say 'hunting rats and rabbits' as a separate issue and does not mention them having to be flushed out or shot. You may find it set out more clearly in this link. 

Hunting Act 2004


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, but I feel my ignore list growing, I've found it ever so useful of late and I just feel this may be one reason to expand it, tata for now!


What a shame it's had to go like this. Wasn't my intentions to offend or upset anybody.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> It doesn't but after 5 hours the fox thats been hounded and chased for that period of time is going to be under far more stress both mentally and physically than the rabbit that has been run for 30 seconds. Its the differnce between a drawn out sport and a quick dispatch for the table or pest control. Would you prefer the animal that produced your beef to have been through a slaughter house than a bull fight? Because that's a similar differnce in terms of animal welfare and human intention.
> 
> If it's rats or rabbits then it's legal with two dogs for them to make the kill. Most rats are flushed with smoke for terrier work.


Sorry hen, but I ain't willing to comment further, you're on about someone who from all account thinks it's great fun to let their dogs run after and kill rabbits, that's what they're bred for right? So what is the difference between ten, twenty minutes, one hour, two hours, oh that's right,forgot foxes had darned digital watches and bunnies didn't?? Silly me 



Elles said:


> From your quote. It does say 'hunting rats and rabbits' as a separate issue and does not mention them having to be flushed out or shot. You may find it set out more clearly in this link.
> 
> Hunting Act 2004


Read it right, if you are hunting with dogs, the law basically states you need to be prepared to despatch game, so if you are hunting with dogs, you are shooting over them with the appropriate live ammunition.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I may be wrong, but surely there is less chance of a quick death for the rabbit if it is shot? It must be bl**dy difficult to get a clean shot from a long distance of something so low to the ground, and moving so fast... surely a dog can despatch the rabbit more efficiently?


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> you're on about someone who from all account thinks it's great fun to let their dogs run after and kill rabbits,
> .


Er, was this in regards to me? If so, I give up!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

bearcub said:


> I may be wrong, but surely there is less chance of a quick death for the rabbit if it is shot? It must be bl**dy difficult to get a clean shot from a long distance of something so low to the ground, and moving so fast... surely a dog can despatch the rabbit more efficiently?


Depends on the shot and the dogs, this is one reason this thread has got me bleedin fuming. My OH works his dogs, shoots over them regularly, if a rabbit gets up it is chuffin shot and if it ain't dead dealt with within seconds. It is not subjected to a chase and death by inexperienced dog, pee's me off no end that people are prepared to accept this as a natural behaviour, and yet pack hunting aint'!!


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Shows the ignorance inherant in the system!! B*****llocks, to be quite frank, any suffering of any animal is not what anyone shooting or hunting is about, the fact that you are prepared to accept that level of suffering speaks volumes.


Am I writing something differnt to what your reading because I've never said I accept a high level of suffering. But I genuinely believe that when a person sets out to kill an animal, especially a wild one, then there will most likely be suffering at some point.

You can be the best shot in the world, but the only guaranteed instant kill is a head shot and you are not always going to get that. You are a member of an organisation that supports shooting birds out of the sky - if anyone argues that most birds on a shoot are killed instantly then they are a liar. Many birds will only die when the dog finds them and brings them back, some will never be found and may take hours to die.

Accepting that some shot animals suffer is living in the real world - i'm not saying it's not sad.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Foxhunting was never about bloodthirsty yahoos killing stuff tbh. It was about seeing the skill of the hounds at work, despatching what were considered pests, usually at a farmer's request. Horses were necessary, can't keep up with the hounds otherwise and many people joined just for the ride. 

There was an out-dated tradition around it, that made it more complex, but in it's simplest form, it was about using hounds (and the terriers) to do what came naturally to them and serve a purpose.

Nowadays foxes are flushed out and shot, or running around people's backyards spreading mange, but such is life. People can still ride out on drag hunts. Though I wouldn't, drag hunting is too fast and furious for me, I preferred the standing around waiting for the hounds to find something, rather than be given something to follow. 

No, I personally would prevent my dog from chasing or killing rabbits, though we do see many on our walks dashing for the safety of the hedge, Elles isn't really interested in them and I'm quite pleased about that.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> Am I writing something differnt to what your reading because I've never said I accept a high level of suffering. But I genuinely believe that when a person sets out to kill an animal, especially a wild one, then there will most likely be suffering at some point.
> 
> You can be the best shot in the world, but the only guaranteed instant kill is a head shot and you are not always going to get that. You are a member of an organisation that supports shooting birds out of the sky - if anyone argues that most birds on a shoot are killed instantly then they are a liar. Many birds will only die when the dog finds them and brings them back, some will never be found and may take hours to die.
> 
> Accepting that some shot animals suffer is living in the real world - i'm not saying it's not sad.


No I'm not, a member of anything thank you, yet another presumption, I may promote beliefs, does not make me a member!!


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Depends on the shot and the dogs, this is one reason this thread has got me bleedin fuming. My OH works his dogs, shoots over them regularly, if a rabbit gets up it is chuffin shot and if it ain't dead dealt with within seconds. It is not subjected to a chase and death by inexperienced dog, pee's me off no end that people are prepared to accept this as a natural behaviour, and yet pack hunting aint'!!


My dogs are NOT inexperienced. They are very experienced - the Westie is nearly 9, and worked all his life. It's extremely insulting to keep repeatedly saying I do not know what I am doing, that I am inexperienced and let my dogs kill for the fun of it. They may not be working dogs in the true sense of the word - they're my pets first and foremost, but one, the Westie, is capable of working, and working well.

I am fed up of this thread now and wish I hadn't flippin' started it.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And for your information most people I know don't shoot hares for that reason, and guess where the best and healthiest population of hares were, that's right, on hare coursing grounds, but then folk never understood that either, most people think it's about killing the hares when it ain't at all!!!


 You are against a dog catching a bunny but have just defended hare coursing - i'm so confused by you. Coursing may not be about killing the hares but they certainly suffer just as much as a rabbit does when chased by a dog. I didn't metion the video because they were shooting them for a reason, I mentioned it to show shooting ain't suffering free either.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Doesn't matter I'm afraid, if you were walking and suddenly noticed you were in a field of sheep, is it your fault or the sheeps fault that your recall isn't good enough?


Suddenly you appeared in a field of sheep !

A Dr Who moment I'm sure.

Crack another can of Special Brew and get back to Bristol University baiting.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> suddenly noticed you were in a field of sheep,


Oh it happens. Quite often on Dartmoor I'll walk over the brow of the hill to realise I'm within spitting distance of a flock of sheep. No tardis required.


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## Zoej82 (Apr 19, 2011)

My mother in law was walking with some friends and a guy she barely tolerates they walked near an entrance to a rabbit hole and saw a baby rabbit curled up asleep. The guy purposely told his dog to get it to upset my mother law!!!!!! disgusting his dog ended up tearing it to shreds while my mother in law walked on very very angry and upset


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> You are against a dog catching a bunny but have just defended hare coursing - i'm so confused by you. Coursing may not be about killing the hares but they certainly suffer just as much as a rabbit does when chased by a dog. I didn't metion the video because they were shooting them for a reason, I mentioned it to show shooting ain't suffering free either.


Then you obviously don't actually understand coursing, nor what it's about. Coursing is not about catching quarry, it's about judging dogs against quarry, and I think you'll find if you look are hare populations against demographics, hare courisng areas fare very well, why? Because they chufffin need hares to prove their dogs, ain't rocket science.



Zoej82 said:


> My mother in law was walking with some friends and a guy she barely tolerates they walked near an entrance to a rabbit hole and saw a baby rabbit curled up asleep. The guy purposely told his dog to get it to upset my mother law!!!!!! disgusting his dog ended up tearing it to shreds while my mother in law walked on very very angry and upset


Exactly the sort of people who need to be given the same treatment they give to wildlife!!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Zoej82 said:


> My mother in law was walking with some friends and a guy she barely tolerates they walked near an entrance to a rabbit hole and saw a baby rabbit curled up asleep. The guy purposely told his dog to get it to upset my mother law!!!!!! disgusting his dog ended up tearing it to shreds while my mother in law walked on very very angry and upset


I can't imagine that a baby rabbit would be asleep outside the entrance to a warren. It might have already been dead I'm afraid.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry hen, but I ain't willing to comment further, you're on about someone who from all account thinks it's great fun to let their dogs run after and kill rabbits, that's what they're bred for right? So what is the difference between ten, twenty minutes, one hour, two hours, oh that's right,forgot foxes had darned digital watches and bunnies didn't?? Silly me


The length of the chase matters to the degree of suffering that occurs, it's simple logic. If you went through something physically and mentally distressing for 30 seconds you would suffer less than if you went through it for an hour. There isn't really a species distinction here though you could argue that foxes, being a predator are not really "designed" to be chased whereas rabbits being a prey animal spend much of there lives being hunted by something - thats not really a massive part of the argument for me though.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> The length of the chase matters to the degree of suffering that occurs, it's simple logic. If you went through something physically and mentally distressing for 30 seconds you would suffer less than if you went through it for an hour. There isn't really a species distinction here though you could argue that foxes, being a predator are not really "designed" to be chased whereas rabbits being a prey animal spend much of there lives being hunted by something - thats not really a massive part of the argument for me though.


So the fact that foxes have been observed predating whilst on the chase, or even coursed hares not behaving naturally, and easily caught, oops no, that don't fit into the demographics. So, foxes suffer? Bunnies suffer?? Foxes predate on bunnies, so who suffers most?


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## Zoej82 (Apr 19, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I can't imagine that a baby rabbit would be asleep outside the entrance to a warren. It might have already been dead I'm afraid.


No the the squeals demonstrated otherwise!!!

God I'm going to dream of watership down now!!!


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Elles said:


> Foxhunting was never about bloodthirsty yahoos killing stuff tbh. It was about seeing the skill of the hounds at work, despatching what were considered pests, usually at a farmer's request. Horses were necessary, can't keep up with the hounds otherwise and many people joined just for the ride.
> 
> There was an out-dated tradition around it, that made it more complex, but in it's simplest form, it was about using hounds (and the terriers) to do what came naturally to them and serve a purpose.


Oh I completely understand this and would never call someone who foxhunts a "bloodthirsty yahoo"  . I was torn on foxhunting for a long time and I have friends that hunt - I love watching dogs work, I love hounds and I love a good jolly around the country on a horse as much as anyone. But at the end of the day it is a sport at the expense of the foxes welfare, even if the enjoyment comes from the thrill of the chase and the hound work rather than the kill. It started off as a sport when people ran out of boar and wolves and has continued as one. There are easier, cheaper, quicker and more effecient ways to kill a pest fox so although alot of fox hunting folk may believe it's pest control, i'm not convinced it truely is.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> Oh I completely understand this and would never call someone who foxhunts a "bloodthirsty yahoo"  . I was torn on foxhunting for a long time and I have friends that hunt - I love watching dogs work, I love hounds and I love a good jolly around the country on a horse as much as anyone. But at the end of the day it is a sport at the expense of the foxes welfare, even if the enjoyment comes from the thrill of the chase and the hound work rather than the kill. It started off as a sport when people ran out of boar and wolves and has continued as one. There are easier, cheaper, quicker and more effecient ways to kill a pest fox so although alot of fox hunting folk may believe it's pest control, i'm not convinced it truely is.


But it's still ok for a pet dog to kill a bunny


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Then you obviously don't actually understand coursing, nor what it's about. Coursing is not about catching quarry, it's about judging dogs against quarry, and I think you'll find if you look are hare populations against demographics, hare courisng areas fare very well, why? Because they chufffin need hares to prove their dogs, ain't rocket science.


You really do need to start reading my posts before you comment - if there are bits you don't understand i'm happy to clarify. What part of "Coursing may not be about killing the hares" did you not understand? I know coursing is not about killing. The chase causes suffering and hares DO get caught during coursing - do they not matter? I'm not 100% against coursing if any killed hare are made use of. I was just baffled as to how you can support chasing hare with dogs but not rabbits 

There are ways to conserve hares without coursing so it doesn't really matter if coursing conserves them or not.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But it's still ok for a pet dog to kill a bunny


I believe so yes as long as said bunny is put to good use and have repeatedly explained why I think this. Why on earth does it matter that its a 'pet' dog?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> is a sport at the expense of the foxes welfare


Well it's banned now so not much point in worrying about it. 

I'd have preferred if the post had said "at the expense of a fox." then I could understand your point and feelings on it and many people would agree with you.

Welfare of the fox population generally would be subject to survey and research and provable either way, not a subject of opinion or emotional standpoints I think.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Elles said:


> Well it's banned now so not much point in worrying about it.
> 
> I'd have preferred if the post had said "at the expense of a fox." then I could understand your point and feelings on it and many people would agree with you.
> 
> Welfare of the fox population generally would be subject to survey and research and provable either way, not a subject of opinion or emotional standpoints I think.


I agree there are arguments either way and people are never going to see eye to eye. I think the ban was political and there is bigger worries for the government to spend time on. But for me there are more humane ways to control foxes (even with dogs) and that's all it boils down to for me


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

cinammontoast said:


> Doesn't matter what my stance on foxes is, we have very few at the yard. What winds me up is the thought of my horse breaking a leg and having to be PTS because of the over population of rabbits. I would love a proper cull but the yard owner's aim is decidedly iffy. We're hoping to get in a falconer for the pigeons that freak out the horses in the indoor arena: I'd rather not be thrown because of their dive bombing. I have no idea if that's legal?


If you want them to actually catch pigeons rather than just move them on you'll have a job finding anyone that will fly falcons or hawks at them.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

hawksport said:


> If you want them to actually catch pigeons rather than just move them on you'll have a job finding anyone that will fly falcons or hawks at them.


Just out of interest, is this because the pigeons can potentially harm the falcons?


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## hope (May 25, 2011)

havent seen any when we have been walking not sure if they would or wouldent try to chase one realy


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

bearcub said:


> Just out of interest, is this because the pigeons can potentially harm the falcons?


There are two ways to hunt with a falcon. For game birds you would wait for your dog to come on point and hold the point while you release the falcon to climb. Then you would send the dog in to flush and the falcon will stoop at the quarry and either make a kill or the quarry will reach cover fairly quickly. The other is direct pursuit at corvids and gulls. They will usually use any cover or water in the case of gulls to dodge a falcon and so not go too far. Pigeons will usually just fly in a straight line and try to out fly a falcon or hawk. They go a long way very quickly and you end up spending most of the day tracking them down.
Most of the pigeon clearance in towns and football grounds is done with Harris hawks that have little chance of catching pigeons. They just make them feel uncomfortable enough to move them on for a while


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Either will do: they are a ruddy trauma.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I have to admit we do but in our surroundings it's one of those unavoidable situations.
For her size Zara is very good at rooting out the occasional Rabbit. Once she is hot on their trail the outcome is often inevitable. 
Oscar doesn't much care for the chase but is naturally interested in what Zara often returns with.


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## Spud the Bull Terrier (Jun 19, 2011)

in reply to the OPS question, I don't let Spud hunt rabbits but only because I don&#8217;t let him off the lead, and that&#8217;s because his recall is a bit iffy and he would not distinguish between rabbits, cats, sheep, cows, horses, bicycles, cars, trains, tractors, busses, crows pigeons. They are all fair game to him. 

I have let him finnish off a few that Ive come across with myxi, which I view as the human thing to do. 

As to the wider question of whether it&#8217;s right to hunt rabbits with dogs. In my view so long as they are being put to good use (being eaten) then it&#8217;s a human way of killing a rabbit and helps keep the rabbit population at a manageable level.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

My thoughts..... can't help but think that people who allow their pet dog to chase round the countryside after rabbits are irresponsible. To me it is often a lack of any recall that has kick-started this 'chase instinct' in their dog. After that they have no control and their dog is completely deaf to any commands. I have known of dogs that have progressed from rabbit to deer, and seen some absolutely horrific injuries sustained to deer by dogs, because people have allowed their dog to just disappear and chase what it likes. Lets be honest a dog which now has such an ingrained chase instinct does not distinguish between rabbit, hare, deer, otter (have known a dog round here take one on)and even lambs and sheep etc or whatever.

It is incredibly irresponsible because everytime you let your dog f*ck off there is no telling whose land he/she may end up on; what animals he/she may catch; whose livestock may be in danger; and also what accidents he/she may cause - thinking road accidents here, again I know of plenty of dogs that have been killed on roads by being allowed to 'chase'.

My preferred way to kill rabbits is by a sharp shooter, at night, on land which you own or have written permission to shoot on. It is quick, efficient and humane.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Also please note:
> 
> _Under the Hunting Act 2004, it is illegal to hunt wild mammals with a dog in England and Wales (there are some exceptions to this). 'Hunting' includes using one or more dogs to chase a wild mammal with the intention of catching or killing it.[/_


_

At the risk of sounding daft since when have DOGS been able to read the Hunting Act also maybe the bunnies should be told that during certain hours they best stay in there warm burrows , on our way back from the show yesterday we nearly run a bunny over and if we had yes he would have been in the back and dogs would be having bunny for there dinner today_


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

leoti said:


> At the risk of sounding daft since when have DOGS been able to read the Hunting Act


Never, however fortunately we can read and it is up to us to be responsible dog owners and ensure we train our dogs appropriately.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

agnes2003 said:


> Never, however fortunately we can read and it is up to us to be responsible dog owners and ensure we train our dogs appropriately.


Just so you are aware i do train my dogs properly and all have excellent recalls and when told to leave will do so , i was just making the point that sometimes when ur out and about and the dog goes out of sight and the odd bunny will pop up and a dog will chase it , some dogs have a natural instinct to hunt this we can not take away from them


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> My thoughts.....people who allow their pet dog to chase round the countryside after rabbits are irresponsible. To me it is often a lack of any recall that has kick-started this 'chase instinct' in their dog. After that they have no control and their dog is completely deaf to any commands. I have known of dogs that have progressed from rabbit to deer, and seen some absolutely horrific injuries sustained to deer by dogs, because people have allowed their dog to just disappear and chase what it likes. Lets be honest a dog which now has such an ingrained chase instinct does not distinguish between rabbit, hare, deer, otter (have known a dog round here take one on)and even lambs and sheep etc or whatever.
> 
> It is incredibly irresponsible because everytime you let your dog f*ck off there is no telling whose land he/she may end up on; what animals he/she may catch; whose livestock may be in danger; and also what accidents he/she may cause - thinking road accidents here, again I know of plenty of dogs that have been killed on roads by being allowed to 'chase'.



What absolute rot! Do you realise I haven't heard you say anything that I haven't already seen fall out of a Horse's 4R53 first?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

agnes2003 said:


> My thoughts..... can't help but think that people who allow their pet dog to chase round the countryside after rabbits are irresponsible. To me it is often a lack of any recall that has kick-started this 'chase instinct' in their dog. After that they have no control and their dog is completely deaf to any commands. I have known of dogs that have progressed from rabbit to deer, and seen some absolutely horrific injuries sustained to deer by dogs, because people have allowed their dog to just disappear and chase what it likes. Lets be honest a dog which now has such an ingrained chase instinct does not distinguish between rabbit, hare, deer, otter (have known a dog round here take one on)and even lambs and sheep etc or whatever.
> 
> It is incredibly irresponsible because everytime you let your dog f*ck off there is no telling whose land he/she may end up on; what animals he/she may catch; whose livestock may be in danger; and also what accidents he/she may cause - thinking road accidents here, again I know of plenty of dogs that have been killed on roads by being allowed to 'chase'.
> 
> My preferred way to kill rabbits is by a sharp shooter, at night, on land which you own or have written permission to shoot on. It is quick, efficient and humane.


You forgot to mention that if you dog is out of control on private land and your dog worries and injures the farmer (landowner) is well within his rights to shoot your dog! And should this happen (and I know of several including two weimys in 2008) the landowner is obliged to shoot to kill NOT to scare off! And they do!


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Leoti, I wasn't referring to anyone here or inparticular in my post above. It is based on my own first hand experiences of living in rural england all my life ;-)



Zaros said:


> What absolute rot! Do you realise I haven't heard you say anything that I haven't already seen fall out of a Horse's 4R53 first?[/SIZE][/FONT]


Would be interested to know which bits you disagree with and why.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> My thoughts..... can't help but think that people who allow their pet dog to chase round the countryside after rabbits are irresponsible. To me it is often a lack of any recall that has kick-started this 'chase instinct' in their dog. After that they have no control and their dog is completely deaf to any commands. I have known of dogs that have progressed from rabbit to deer, and seen some absolutely horrific injuries sustained to deer by dogs, because people have allowed their dog to just disappear and chase what it likes. Lets be honest a dog which now has such an ingrained chase instinct does not distinguish between rabbit, hare, deer, otter (have known a dog round here take one on)and even lambs and sheep etc or whatever.
> 
> It is incredibly irresponsible because everytime you let your dog f*ck off there is no telling whose land he/she may end up on; what animals he/she may catch; whose livestock may be in danger; and also what accidents he/she may cause - thinking road accidents here, again I know of plenty of dogs that have been killed on roads by being allowed to 'chase'.
> 
> My preferred way to kill rabbits is by a sharp shooter, at night, on land which you own or have written permission to shoot on. It is quick, efficient and humane.


Baack when I had lurchers they worked rabbit, hare and fox often in fields with sheep and never even looked at them


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

> My thoughts.....people who allow their pet dog to chase round the countryside after rabbits are irresponsible...


Indeed he might trip and fall. :scared:

Why do people want a real live dog if they don't like shedding fur, spending time walking and training, giving proper food, finding stuff for the dog to do rather than just sit quietly on a rug and not to do what comes naturally and chase after things and sometimes catch them and bark.

Better of with one of these....


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> Would be interested to know which bits you disagree with and why.


All of it! You simply made wild assumptions about folks who allow their Dogs to chase Rabbits!

However, with consideration to your claim that a Dog which is allowed to chase Rabbits progresses onto Sheep, Cows, Planes, Trains and Automobiles, then, particularly with regard to the enclosed case, you could well be correct in your thinking processes!



Although to be fair to the Dog, the Reindeer was asking for it!


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## Superash (Aug 23, 2011)

I have a jack Russell who shows no interest whatsoever in rabbits . Just a thought !


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> Indeed he might trip and fall. :scared:
> 
> Why do people want a real live dog if they don't like shedding fur, spending time walking and training, giving proper food, finding stuff for the dog to do rather than just sit quietly on a rug and not to do what comes naturally and chase after things and sometimes catch them and bark.
> 
> Better of with one of these....


There is a HUGE difference to me between a well trained working dog and a pet dog out of control ;-).

I own four working labs and two working staffies. The labs compete in gundog competitions & pick up during the Season; the staffies are involved in my gamekeeping duties in holding the pheasants on the land (dogging in). They have been trained to calmly find and flush birds in a given distance from me but NOT chase. They are a huge help to me in my work and thankfully not a problem to anyone else. They all stay close to me, as they have been trained and it has taken a good deal of effort. I have seen so much wildlife and livestock and pets even mauled and maimed by out of control dogs, I can't tell you. If your dog manages to ID rabbits only; despatches them instantly and manages to stay away from private land and traffic etc, then good luck to you ;-) *

*ps. again, not referring to anyone in particular here


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

agnes2003 said:


> There is a HUGE difference to me between a well trained working dog and a pet dog out of control ;-).


A very good point! I have seen well trained dogs sat in the back of vehicles (tailgate open) and the dogs who not even dare to get out unless told let alone chase! besides - they would no be allowed to run amok apart from the handler being made to look a laughing stock it could be extremely dangerous for the dogs


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

So 13 pages in and we have learned:

Fox hunting is a long drawn out process that is cruel. It was for pest control and not for Hoorah Henry's to have a good day out with their nags after a good soaking of the deep clarets.

Hare Coursing is perfectly acceptable because you are judging how the dog runs. Putting a live animal through stress just so you can see how a dogs runs is OK in people's books. If a dog does manage to get hold of a hare but it has never had a live hare in it's chops before, how can it learn to make a quick kill or does it wait of rit's competitor to come along and help with the disemboweling?

Rabbit hunting with dogs is not right. Despite a rabbit looking like a hare and even using the same breed of dogs used for hare coursing or sepcifically for pest control, this is not allowed. God forbid a large group of people should gather around a field, money exchange hands, rabbits be flushed into the field and the dogs set on to them whilst the surrounding people cheer for their champion   Whatever will the neighbour's think?

I am absolutely confused to buggery about the differences of an organise event of hare coursing and setting trained dogs onto rabbits for the purpose of pest control and how the former is less barbaric then the latter?

DEFRA has even come out and stated in black and white that hunting rats and rabbits with dogs is a relatively humane way of pest control and here it is in Janet and John to state that it is legal to hunt rabbits as long as it's your land or you have permission from the land owner:

It is not an offence to hunt rabbits with dogs provided the hunt is carried out
on land which belongs to the hunter or on which he has permission to hunt
i.e. from the occupier of the land or the owner of the land if it is unoccupied.

Speaking of pests, the Pest Act makes interesting reading from an alternative view of things:

_Under Section 1 of the Pest Act 1954 the whole of England and Wales except
the City of London and the Isles of Scilly has been declared a rabbit clearance
area. This means all occupiers of land in the clearance areas have a
continuing obligation to kill or take any wild rabbit on their land unless they
can prove it is not practical to do so. If this is the case then occupiers have a duty to prevent the rabbits from causing damage elsewhere i.e. by installing
rabbit-proof fencing._

If it's a rabbit and it's on your land you have a duty of care to kill it. Nowhere is a rabbit safety zone so they are fair game for any method of killing as long as your morals can take the method chosen and you can sleep at night.
If the Secretary of State says you have to kill them or get rid of them and you fail to do so you can even face prosecution.

On top of all this the 40million (approx) little cotton tailed grunts cost the UK economy an estimated £260M per year through damages to crops, businesses and infrastructure.

Shooting something isn't really a fair game. A bullet will outrun any living creature regardless of age or health so shootin grabbits and hares can hardly be labelled as "an effective way to manage a healthy population and provide a humane kill". What if you clip the animal or don't kill it immediately as it goes behind cover and you have to walk or run over to it? Can you get to it in under the 30secs it takes for a dog to make the kill as stated? 
At least a healthy rabbit has a chance to outrun a dog and get to cover and they get a decent head start so it's a lot more fair than pointing a crosshair at it.

I am neither for nor against. It has gone on for a lot more years than I have been alive and it will continue way past I leave this planet, it's idividual choice and if you do it legally then people can't say squat.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

What I find most annoying about this dog catching rabbit thing is that the pompous old gits who like to chase, exhaust, terrorise and then let a pack of dogs rip to shreds a fox are* still doing it* even though it is illegal and here we are disputing whether it's right for our pets to chase and kill the occasional rabbit of which would probably only be one or two in the dogs lifetime! As the thread by dogless showed the other day, these kind of above the law people are blatantly breaking the law and couldn't give a sh*t! These are the kind of people that make me sick, people who think that just because they want to do it, they should be allowed to regardless of the law - part of their heritage b*llocks! 

My lovely old Staff once caught a rabbit, he grabbed it by the neck, shock it twice and dropped it and apart from death throws it didn't move and died instantly.

Marty caught a ringed dove in the garden which died almost as soon as he caught it and ate it and Flynn ate a wood pigeon that recently flew into the patio door breaking it's neck. Not often they get food that's so fresh it's still warm.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

All my boys are workers so yes i allow them to catch rabbits as it is their jobs.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So hunting rabbits, a secondary species to the introduction of cats, is ok then, we can kill them with our pet dogs?


I think SLs posts have got more and more bizarre!

Rabbits are pests and if we want our dogs to kill them why shouldnt they if it is done in a controlled way. My old dogs would take nests of baby rabbits and dispose of them. The current dogs are not under control enough to allow them to run after rabbits but they do get young ones sometimes and Candy is also an ace ratter.

As for hare coursing, I have never been involved with it but it must put the hares under far more stress even if they live at the end of it. Life or death is not the question here is it, it is the suffering from being chased. I thought hare coursing had been illegal for a long time anyway.

Fox hunting - well I am pro fox hunting and I know a lot of hunts find a way round the law and still legally kill the foxes. It is a good way of culling as the foxes that cause damage are often the weaker ones that will get caught and the healthy, stronger foxes who will live on rabbits etc and be doing good will escape being killed. Shooting is indiscriminate and often leaves an injured animal to die a lingering death.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

You can cull animals in a more humane way than with dogs chasing and ripping them apart  prefer shooting myself, but then where's the fun in just shooting them dead when you can chase the sh*t out of them first?

I would think the badger cull which is about to go ahead will not be done with dogs, thus proving fox hunting is not about culling at all but about so called sport for fun! 

Another thread maybe!


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## sarelis (Aug 29, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, it's against the law, and if you were caught, you could be prosecuted. You can flush ground game, but you must be prepared to shoot it, so your dogs have to be steady to flush.


It is perfectly legal to hunt rabbits & rats with dogs in the UK provided it's on your own land or you have permission. I take Lu hunting fairly regularly, our paddocks are ruined by rabbits


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Malmum said:


> You can cull animals in a more humane way than with dogs chasing and ripping them apart  prefer shooting myself, but then where's the fun in just shooting them dead when you can chase the sh*t out of them first?
> 
> I would think the badger cull which is about to go ahead will not be done with dogs, thus proving fox hunting is not about culling at all but about so called sport for fun!
> 
> Another thread maybe!


 I could look through my hawking diaries and tell you how many rabbits we have caught with lead shot in them


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Malmum said:


> You can cull animals in a more humane way than with dogs chasing and ripping them apart  prefer shooting myself, but then where's the fun in just shooting them dead when you can chase the sh*t out of them first?
> 
> I would think the badger cull which is about to go ahead will not be done with dogs, thus proving fox hunting is not about culling at all but about so called sport for fun!
> 
> Another thread maybe!


No they are going to be using cage traps which means a wild animal will be terrified and trapped for up to 12 hours before being dispatched.
Can you imagine the sheer terror that animal will go through, and this multiplied a thousand or more times


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I would think the badger cull which is about to go ahead will not be done with dogs, thus proving fox hunting is not about culling at all but about so called sport for fun!


Wales have prevented this.

It will apparently save something like 6% of cows if 70% of badgers are culled. Hmm. So worth it.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

SixStar said:


> As per title really - do you allow your dog(s) to catch rabbits?
> 
> My friend called round with her dog today and this evening we went out for a walk with them and three of mine.
> 
> ...


On an arable farm. rabbits can do an enormous amount of damage to crops,so I can sympathise with the farmer. But is it ethical? I don't let mine chase rabbits.prefering to shoot them and have the dog go fetch them. if the rabbit is used for food then i guess it.s okay. but if it is just for fun, then no. Wildlife have rights tooooooooooooo


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JennyClifford said:


> No they are going to be using cage traps which means a wild animal will be terrified and trapped for up to 12 hours before being dispatched.
> Can you imagine the sheer terror that animal will go through, and this multiplied a thousand or more times


And so letting your pet dog maul a rabbit to death is better?

Geez, I knew there was a reason I was ignoring this thread, have checked, it is illegal, end of. Please do not allow your dogs to chase wildlife and kill it, no matter how natural you feel it is.

There are two things gundogs are trained to do, recall, and steadiness, everything else is built around that. What's steadiness? Not bl**dy chasing and killing stuff basically!!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> have checked, it is illegal, end of.


What is illegal?

Hunting rabbits and rats on land that you own or have written permission from the land owner with an agreed reward isn't as long as ONE handler is NOT in charge of more than TWO dogs. That is the law. It states it on the BASC site too in plain written English for everyone and anyone to see. 
Lots of rabbit recipes on there too as well. Yum yum 

See point 4 on here:

BASC statement on the Hunting Act

It is exempt therefore the law of huinting with dogs does not apply as long as you own the land or have the land owner's permission.

On the same site is the enforceable code of practice that exempts gamekeepers from the hunting act to use dogs underground to flush foxes from their dens so they can be shot if they pose a risk to birds that are going to be used for shooting.
So what the heck is all that about? 
Send in a dog to flush out a fox to be shot in case it takes a few birds that are scheduled to be shot anyway. Seems like a lot of killing and unessecary risk to a dog for the sake being able to blast another animal to kingdom come. What happens if the dog inuures the fox underground and it is too lame to get out or vice versa? What happens then? Don't tell me, send in another dog? Dig it up? Gas it? Apply for the use of explosives to collapse the den? 
How do these guys go about training their dogs in order to ensure that when they come face to face with a fox and it's a case of the fox isn't going out without a fight, that the dogs make a swift kill and don't maul the fox to death? Do they get it right straight from birth? Does every single dog used know and use the Spok grip of death on the fox or do they make the odd mess of the fox here and there, the fox stops fighting, the dog leaves the den and the guys who are hunting with the dog leave the den thinking the fox is dead but don't reaslise that the dog has broken two of its legs and left it to starve to death over a week or two or bleed to death over a few painful hours? Does the dog know that if it comes across a vixen in a live den to go finish off the cubs or does it just kill the vixen or maim it as stated above and leave it unable to feed it's young so they starve to death in a nice swift way too? What happens if the dog comes out all torn up and has to be put to sleep due to it's injuries? Do they go get another dog, dig up the fox, gas it, blow it up or just leave it be as it was a fair fight and it won?

EDIT: Found the answer to orphaned cubs on the Code of Practice:

Despatch of orphaned cubs
6. The law does not allow a terrier to be used underground to despatch orphaned cubs.

Seems that if the vixen bolts (not likley if she has cubs to defend but anyway) and get's shot then the cubs are left to starve to death. Nice work BASC, nice work. No suffering for any wild animal?

On top of this BASC are promoting taking out a natural predator for rabbits in the area allowing their populations to increase unchecked. Sure you can shoot a few rabbits here and there but are you really going to dent the population? Certainly not if you are taking out one of their predators so that shooters can go blast fancy chickens out of the sky for something constructive to do.
Sounds like BASC have it all under control though folks so if you let your dogs chase rabbits depite it being your land or having permission from the land owner to do so please think badly of yourselves, naughty naughty folk making a mess of the countryside and doing bad things.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Legalities aside, I can see SL's point.

If you look at it from the rabbit's or fox's point of view, it's being chased by dogs in order to be killed. Fox nor rabbit would be particularly happy about it if it knew that's what was happening.

I agree with her on that, if you think it's okay for a couple of pet dogs to chase and kill a rabbit, it should also be okay for a pack of hounds to chase and kill a fox.

I have problems with how meat animals are raised and slaughtered, so I don't eat them and haven't for many years.

I don't have a problem with a dog chasing and quickly despatching an animal out in the wild, though. I wouldn't let my dog hunt rabbits, as she's a pet, not a trained worker, I wouldn't be sure she'd despatch it quickly once she caught it and my daughter has pet rabbits I don't want her chasing and killing. 

The young working dogs usually learn from being run with older, experienced dogs. It's what cubbing was for. Training young hounds, not killing baby foxes. 

I quite understand why many people found fox-hunting distasteful and wanted it banned though. I don't think that a good enough reason is that someone thinks the type of person doing it is a 'pompous old git' and should be banned from breathing, but rather based on animal welfare issues. 



> It's a quick kill, just a shake and the neck is broken


Same with the hounds and fox-hunting tbh.


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

So in order to comply with the law you have to ensure:

1. your dog only chases and kills rabbits on your own land or land which you have WRITTEN permission

2. your dog can tell the difference between a rabbit and a hare - see pic below - because a dog killing a hare is ILLEGAL under any circumstances even on private land and if prosecuted you and the land owner are liable for a fine of £5000 in a magistartes court and on some occasions the relinquish of your dog:









3. you have enough control of your dog: 
a) to ensure it stays within the boundaries of your own land or land you have written permission to use, otherwise you are guilty of trespassing and potentially illegally hunting rabbits
and
b) to be able to call it off other wildlife such as hares, foxes and deer should it decide to give chase

If your dog is trained to kill rabbits and you have good control over it; it stays on the land you own/have written permission to use; and despatches the rabbit quickly, then as I've said previously, fair cop to you. Sorry to me anything else is just irresponsible and a few of us will probably have to agree to disagree on that ;-)

I too don't like to kill animals just for the fun of it. I like to see them put to good use after. The rabbits lamped at night are killed instantly, they are gutted onsite by my own hands. They're then taken home and I skin them in seconds and clean them out. In the freezer they go for dinner another time or occasionally in the dogs bowls. The fur I then tan and make into dog retrieving dummies at a later date etc. That to me is respecting your quarry in everyway ;-)


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> So in order to comply with the law you have to ensure:
> 
> 1. your dog only chases and kills rabbits on your own land or land which you have WRITTEN permission
> 
> ...


We're ok then :thumbup:


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Malmum said:


> You can cull animals in a more humane way than with dogs chasing and ripping them apart  prefer shooting myself, but then where's the fun in just shooting them dead when you can chase the sh*t out of them first?
> 
> I would think the badger cull which is about to go ahead will not be done with dogs, thus proving fox hunting is not about culling at all but about so called sport for fun!
> 
> Another thread maybe!


IMO the rabbits dont stand a chance with a man hiding in the bushes shooting them down, at least with a dog and rabbit it gives it a chance of surviving, and therfore you cull the unhealthy/unfit rabbits (usually with Myxy) and leave the healthy ones to reproduce for the next year.

Most works is at a certain time of year and people who work there dogs have to abide by strict rules of when to hunt and when not - for example during mating season and when the kits are born.

My boys do kill rabbits but they dont "savage" it to death, its one quick shake and its gone. If your dog doesnt have the ability to cause a quick death then your dog shouldnt be worked.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

agnes2003 said:


> ...manages to stay away from private land and traffic etc.


If it's on our land, my dog has my permission to catch and eat it, cows and pigs excluded. :001_cool:

Not much traffic on the only single track road, we all know each others dogs around here.

As for hares vs rabbits I'll remind them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And so letting your pet dog maul a rabbit to death is better?
> 
> Geez, I knew there was a reason I was ignoring this thread, have checked, it is illegal, end of. Please do not allow your dogs to chase wildlife and kill it, no matter how natural you feel it is.
> 
> There are two things gundogs are trained to do, recall, and steadiness, everything else is built around that. What's steadiness? Not bl**dy chasing and killing stuff basically!!


It is not.
My dog was trained as a gundog thank you


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

We have miles of countryside on our front which is full of rabbits. Most of the dogs we have or look after love chasing them and hunting them, it's like a natural instinct. They often catch them also and it's extremely good exercise due to the vast openness of endless countryside and the distances they can be chasing a rabbit. 

They also don't hunt other wildlife and instantly kill the rabbit if caught with mouth round it's neck, and stop straight away with the right whistle command.

The dogs love it and it's something they really enjoy doing, it's also really good exercise for them. For me it's good to let the dogs be free in the countryside to do as they please, as long as it's legal and it's not harming anyone. 

Some of the field's the farmer owns also and usually shoot's the rabbits for pest control so he fully welcomes dogs hunting them, and the other land owners give permission for people to hunt rabbits. (Often get people shooting them they even shoot hares)

Some of the dogs don't really hunt though and stay close by while the others go of.


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## slakey (May 9, 2009)

Zeus and Milo have never seen a rabbit, even though there's a farmer and loads of land at the top of our road...

Not quite sure what they'd do...

Zeus would probably go for it and Milo would follow, but Zeus being the big softy he is would kiss it.

We've had injured birds in our back garden before and Zeus has picked them up in his mouth and brought them to us, but that's about it :/


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

I have no idea why fox hunting is being compared to rabbits being hunted?

It is completely different as rabbit hunting is pest control and a food source. Fox hunting is pest control and a trophy.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

In answer to the original question, if I was in the OPs position, i.e. had dogs that could kill fast and with experience, had a strong re-call, I was willing to finish what the dog started if required etc, then yep, I'd let them kill rabbits *for food*. I'm a meat eater; my dog is a meat eater, so animals die to feed us. It's not the most pleasant thought in the world, but thats nature for you.

As for foxes, it is different because A. it's illegal and B. I don't eat fox. Simple as that for me.


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

........................................................


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You are looking at it from the human point of view. You and your dog eat rabbit, hence you should be able to kill them. You don't eat fox, hence you shouldn't be able to kill them. Do you think the rabbit thinks it's okay, because he's killed for food, or the fox think it's not okay because he's not the dogs' dinner?

For me the whole issue is a humanitarian issue and should be based on what is actually better for the wildlife and balance of nature involved, not on whether people eat them or not. 

Seems that's just me though.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jomox said:


> You make good points.
> 
> Also allot of people screaming about how bad and awful it is for the poor rabbits will happily eat meat such as beef, pig etc. These animals go through far worse in the slaughter house.
> 
> It's just nature really as mentioned above, as long as you using the meat for food.


A good proportion of farm animals go through far worse in their short lives than most rabbits caught by an experienced dog 

I do think comparing amounts of suffering is a very precarious road to go though.
Suffering is suffering no matter how severe or for how long.
I try only to let my dog catch and retrieve sick or injured creatures


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I had a GSD who would despatch myxi`d rabbits swiftly and cleanly - she snapped their necks in one move. I think that`s an easy death compared to the alternative. 
One of my gundogs whould occasionally appear from deep cover with a dead rabbit. There was never a mark on it so I assume the same method applied. 
If it`s clean quick death, it`s no more or less than a fox would do after all. 
My current dogs don`t hunt because their prey drive is focussed on toys. In fact I have seen rabbits lollop past them.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Elles said:


> For me the whole issue is a humanitarian issue and should be based on what is actually better for the wildlife and balance of nature involved, not on whether people eat them or not.
> 
> Seems that's just me though.


Balance of nature? Balance of nature?!?!

Rabbits are THE most destructive alien species introduced purely as a food source that got loose. Do you think that they are taking huge amounts of naturally available food away from native species or they are just eating the grass? They wreck crops that you and I along with other animals depend on, ruin land hence why they are considered pests and will happily destroy your property if given the opportunity.

Have a search on the web and see what effect they have had on the Autralian outback since some dimit took some to AGAIN use as a food source and they got loose, again 

If your livelyhood was directly impacted by the effect they have on things I am sure you would be the first to unclip your dog given the opportunity.

Have a look how many kittens one doe can have in a season and then how many all of the females from the litters can have kittens in the same year and then all of the females from that litter and so on. Myxomatosis was welcomed in the UK as a possible answer and considering how contageous it is it had little or no effect on the population and now they are even evolving a natural defense to it. When it no longer results in the death of rabbits then maybe you might realise just how out of balance they make nature if you are unaware of it already.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> I do think comparing amounts of suffering is a very precarious road to go though.


I agree.

I wish the guys who got fox-hunting banned would now turn their attention towards puppy mills, but they don't seem to be that interested, even though the animals involved in them suffer for years. 

I'd love to see them protesting outside puppy mills, tying themselves to trees and waving banners at the owners every time they tried to go shopping.

Don't suppose it'll happen though.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Balance of nature? Balance of nature?!?!
> 
> Rabbits are THE most destructive alien species introduced purely as a food source that got loose. Do you think that they are taking huge amounts of naturally available food away from native species or they are just eating the grass? They wreck crops that you and I along with other animals depend on, ruin land hence why they are considered pests and will happily destroy your property if given the opportunity.
> 
> ...


Oh dear Hutch 
We read that post in a completely different way. I thought that's what was meant, that nature should be balanced 
I do think I read it wrong and you right


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Elles said:


> I agree.
> 
> I wish the guys who got fox-hunting banned would now turn their attention towards puppy mills, but they don't seem to be that interested, even though the animals involved in them suffer for years.
> 
> ...


Even the Animal Rights Idiots don't get involved with these so I doubt a politician will give a stuff. Too much legislation, resource for enforcement and time consumed during more "important times" to give a hoot about puppy farms.

Maybe, just maybe if someone did a programme like Hugh Fearnley-Whitingstall did about battery hens where they actually managed to get legislation passed through the EU regarding chicken welfare and raised a huge awarenes s fo the plights of battery farming hens then perhaps the same may happen for battery farmed dogs.

The problem with the TV programmes that have been made of puppy farms have all been filmed undercover and you can't get the whole nitty gritty details of exactly what goes on and they are usually hidden under some unrelated programme title or aired late at night on an obscure channel.

Write to the Beeb, Twitter some TV presenters and get some backing behind it or write to local papers. Education is the only way forward with this I feel and the education has to come from those that care as it will have to be a free service without government backing. As long as you get in touch with celebs that are passionate about dogs then I am sure they would join you and take it on.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

> thought that's what was meant, that nature should be balanced


Yep. That's exactly what I meant. These things should be settled on humanitarian grounds and what is best for wildlife and balance of nature, not on whether we eat them or not. 

If rabbits were a rare species, that people ate them wouldn't come into it, nor should it in my opinion.

They aren't rare, they are a pest and I'd much rather see them despatched by dogs than by biological warfare. We don't eat rats either (well most people don't) and don't forget rats are also exempt from hunting laws.

I am a vegetarian on humanitarian grounds and have been most of my rather longer than I care to admit, life. Yet I am not anti fox-hunting, or anti rabbit hunting. I don't think people should let their untrained pet dogs chase rabbits and try to kill them, but that's a separate issue, relating more to the training of the dogs than the suffering of the rabbits, though by that I mean more than, not excluding. IN MY OPINION. lol

Hope this clarifies it a bit.


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Elles said:


> You are looking at it from the human point of view. You and your dog eat rabbit, hence you should be able to kill them. You don't eat fox, hence you shouldn't be able to kill them. Do you think the rabbit thinks it's okay, because he's killed for food, or the fox think it's not okay because he's not the dogs' dinner?
> 
> For me the whole issue is a humanitarian issue and should be based on what is actually better for the wildlife and balance of nature involved, not on whether people eat them or not.
> 
> Seems that's just me though.


Sorry but you're the one looking at it from the human point of view! Do you think a lion feels bad after she kills a buffalo? Of course not, thats' a human emotion. And I don't believe rabbits do think it is or isn't ok because they don't have the same level of thought process as we do. IT IS NATURE, like it or not. I eat rabbit yes, and if I get it from a supermarket where someone else has killed it, or if I let my dog catch and kill it, both result in a dead rabbit. At least if I had a dog like the OPs, I'd know the rabbit didn't suffer more than it had to.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Elles said:


> Yep. That's exactly what I meant. These things should be settled on humanitarian grounds and what is best for wildlife and balance of nature, not on whether we eat them or not.
> 
> If rabbits were a rare species, that people ate them wouldn't come into it, nor should it in my opinion.
> 
> ...


Wooops. Sorry  Got wrong end of the rabbit, sorry I meant stick


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## Angels_Sin (Dec 16, 2008)

Elles - reading your other comments I think I may have misunderstood your point a little. I agree that if rabbits were endangered, no one should be eating them and the fact that they might taste nice is not relevant.

I'm actually huge on animal rights and hate to see an animal suffer but I think it's more ethical to be able to hunt for your own food. I live in London so obviously couldn&#8217;t do that even if I wanted to!! But I hate how we mass farm animals, the bad quality of life, and the way they are often killed. Not only that but the huge amount of waste because of supermarkets. If we all only killed what we ate, wouldn't that be kinder? It&#8217;s an idealist idea that could never happen, but that&#8217;s the reason as to why I am ok with killing the odd rabbit for food.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Wooops. Sorry  Got wrong end of the rabbit, sorry I meant stick


Nah nah nah nah nah :001_tt2::lol:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Elles said:


> Yep. That's exactly what I meant. These things should be settled on humanitarian grounds and what is best for wildlife and balance of nature, not on whether we eat them or not.
> 
> If rabbits were a rare species, that people ate them wouldn't come into it, nor should it in my opinion.
> 
> ...


   :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I'm so pleased, just shows how easy it is to misinterpret the written word


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

JennyClifford said:


> Nah nah nah nah nah :001_tt2::lol:


It's not a competition!! it's about the welfare of animals not one-upmanship


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

luckily i havent been in that position yet but when i am i will not be allowing my dog to chase and kill any animal, im a huge animal lover and vege and although i know it is a very natural thing for a dog i just couldnt bare to see it. and as a guinea pig owner i dont want her to see small animals as prey

i would find it very very upsetting to see so i can understand how your friend felt  but the fact your dogs do eat the rabbit makes it seem alright, it is the natural way after all and its not like the dog just killed a rabbit and left it which would imo be a waste of a life, they ate it which i then see as a part of the natural food chain. still wouldnt like to see it though.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

wow this thread got long 

As i said at the beginning, Tummel chases rabbits(he will recall from chasing) but he's too clumsy to catch one and even if he did he wouldn't kill it.

Rabbits need to be controlled and i think using trained dogs(aka dogs that know how to kill quickly) is one of the most natural ways to do it. My OH shoots rabbits for Tummel(he adores rabbit, as does my OH and i also enjoy it) in an area where there is literally thousands of them destroying 2 neighbouring farms, the farmers are almost constantly phoning my OH's shooting buddy and asking him to get a group out shooting and even though they go out at least once a week(the shooting buddy is usually there 3/4 times a week) they've still not made a dint in the population.

My OH is an avid hunter but he refuses to kill hares, they need to be protected and he feels shooting them is wrong even if they are tasty.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Not really read the last few pages, but since cats predate rabbits as an alien species, and they are prime animals to hunt, well, they're just an over burden on the population of wildlife, how do people feel about dogs catching and eating cats, provided we can train the difference between wild/feral and domestic?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Dunno really, how do you feel about hunters shooting cats? 

If they were a problem, I'd rather they were lured, tranq'd and humanely destroyed by a vet or similar trained person, as cats can do a fair bit of damage to a dog. It wouldn't be that easy for a dog to get a quick, clean kill, plus cat isn't usually a dog's dinner, so people would object strongly I expect.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elles said:


> Dunno really, how do you feel about hunters shooting cats?
> 
> If they were a problem, I'd rather they were lured, tranq'd and humanely destroyed by a vet or similar trained person, as cats can do a fair bit of damage to a dog. It wouldn't be that easy for a dog to get a quick, clean kill, plus cat isn't usually a dog's dinner, so people would object strongly I expect.


But when is a rabbit a usual dinner for a kibble fed dog?

My point in posting is, both are alien species, both can provide adequate sustenance for the diet of a dog used to raw feeding, but I betcha one is more acceptable than the other


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## Sarahnya (Oct 27, 2008)

If mine were to catch one I'd simply prepare it for thier tea. 
I think your friend is being a bit daft, I'd say a kill like that was actually far kinder than some of our intensive farming methods.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not really read the last few pages, but since cats predate rabbits as an alien species, and they are prime animals to hunt, well, they're just an over burden on the population of wildlife, how do people feel about dogs catching and eating cats, provided we can train the difference between wild/feral and domestic?


I dont see how you can possibly compare the two. For one thing the majority of cats are pets and the majority of cat owners would be rather upset if their cat was killed!
Also cats just do not die the same way. My dogs have caught cats before (we often have feral cats on the farm) and they treat them like rabbits but the darn things do not die, they fight back and inflict damage on the dogs! One of my dogs got a 12 week kitten once and did all the rabbit killing things she knew but though the kitten was not very happy and was unconscious for a bit it recovered within minutes and had no injuries at all. Turned out to be a tame one too, poor little thing.

Incidentally all our rabbits were wiped out with myxy a couple of years ago. What a horrible disease that is and I was very grateful if the dogs got one and put it out of its misery. They are starting to come back now so some friends are going to bring in their ferrets (and shock horror, their dog) and hopefully get rid of at least most of them.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

If i had my own land wouldnt have problem with it


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I personally won't even give them rabbit as part of their raw, as I have rabbits of my own & I do worry they'd get a taste for them & would start to bother them, as they currently ignore them (the girls) or want to play (Bob)


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> I personally won't even give them rabbit as part of their raw, as I have rabbits of my own & I do worry they'd get a taste for them & would start to bother them, as they currently ignore them (the girls) or want to play (Bob)


I dont think there is any way they would know that your pet rabbits would taste like the meat in their dish. When I was a kid we had a cat that constantly hunted and killed and ate rabbits so he knew where his meat came from! But he and the pet rabbit were best friends and the cat used to jump in the rabbit run and one day we caught the two of them walking down the road side by side


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I personally won't even give them rabbit as part of their raw, as I have rabbits of my own & I do worry they'd get a taste for them & would start to bother them, as they currently ignore them (the girls) or want to play (Bob)


A lovely couple that have two rotties of my breeding also breed rabbits and guinea pigs, the dogs enjoy chasing rabbits and killing them and eating them on their own land but they both know the rabbits in the house are part of the family and mix with them just fine.

And no comments about the dogs killing rabbits please - nowt to do with me, I dont own the dogs, lol!!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> I personally won't even give them rabbit as part of their raw, as I have rabbits of my own & I do worry they'd get a taste for them & would start to bother them, as they currently ignore them (the girls) or want to play (Bob)


Don't know if I've already commented on here or not - but anyway:

I've used these photos before but I disagree with your statement, whilst it is true that dogs are all different. Pet rabbits smell different to wild rabbits and I have proof that mine at least do not see the rabbits as food even though they chase (but can't catch) and eat wild rabbit:


















These were taken the same day he'd had rabbit as a meal (I needed to groom Bambi and it's too much of a risk to do so outside - dogs may not be able to get out but the rabbits sure would!)

I have 7 rabbits and all my dogs have eaten wild rabbit, yet not one of them has bothered with the pets, we have to keep an eye on my bitch as I have seen the terrier creep out a little - as in the chase, but she's never injured or hurt any of my rabbits.

Some bloody gundog aint he :lol:


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

As beagles have been bred for centuries by man to catch rabbit there isnt a lot I can do about it. I am not going to walk them on the lead. If they do catch one which is usually when it has run to ground it is usually despatched quickly. Most of the time the rabbit goes underground and emerges some way away through the back door, the beagle thinks its still underground as it hunts by scent not sight. I was walking along the river past the cricket ground when they took chase, the rabbit disaappeared under the pavillion, the groundsman came with a shovel to help by digging the hole out and allow the beagles to catch the rabbit as it was destroying the pitch.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

No, i don't.

My dogs are not workers, they are companion animals. Between them they have caught 2 mixy rabbits, and despite having powerful jaws (SBT's) and shaking the poor things repeatedly, the buns did not die quickly, and instead had a long lingering deaths, gasping for breath because they had crushed chest cavities. By the time i had gained control over them and actually prized the rabbits from Oscars jaws, they have been dead, but it was quite obvious that they were alive for a substantial amount of time.

Accidents do happen, and in the case of diseased rabbits its not always easy to stop your dog when they literally trip over a sickly bun. However, i have never encouraged it, and have taken measures to minimise the risk to wildlife. Mainly by making sure we make enough noise so they know we are about. That said, they never showed much interest unless the rabbit was right in front of them. Deer on the other hand.....

Thankfully Alfie has almost no prey drive, and pays little attention to rabbits, and Oz can't run more than about 10 metres before he falls over. 
We did come across a mixy rabbit earlier this week, and all Alf wanted to do was sniff and mother it.

In regards to pet rabbits. I have 2 free range ones, and always have had rabbits along side my dogs, and ive never had an issue. I don't think dogs associate the two types tbh, and i imagine its mainly the movement and bolting of the wild rabbits that gets the dogs chase instinct to kick in.


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