# Do you smack your dog?????



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

Do you smack your dog ??? 
I got to admit i dont smack mine but do give the boys a jab in the neck if i see them eating my favourit bay-tree Witch makes little or no diffrence as being bull terriers they got skin like an rhino 
I saw a guy in a park once crack his little dog with its lead  was i right for giving him a good telling off !??


----------



## Magik (Jan 30, 2008)

I dont smack my dog but I tap him using the tips of my fingers. I read about this technique. It is used to control dogs with a pack mentality... it doesn't hurt the dog.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

I give mine a slap across their rump if they play up Nothing major tho..Its deffo nothing major to them but they know when i do that they have been naughty and do as their told.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

i also tap our dog but would never hit so is so big it dont bother her anyway.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

9 outta 10 times the look i give em and me pointing is enough to make em scarpa lol.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

i find ours hates shouting, if ya shout too loud she s**ts herself but its more effective than tapping which she usually ignore, i dont like shouting at her but sometime when she is being a pain in the arse pinching the socks of the kids and running off she deserves it!


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

claire said:


> i find ours hates shouting, if ya shout too loud she s**ts herself but its more effective than tapping which she usually ignore, i dont like shouting at her but sometime when she is being a pain in the arse pinching the socks of the kids and running off she deserves it!


Hehehe, I know the feeling. i have knickers nickers. lol


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> Hehehe, I know the feeling. i have knickers nickers. lol


i like the face they pull when they have pinched something and get told off its just like a naughty childs ya cant stay mad


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

claire said:


> i like the face they pull when they have pinched something and get told off its just like a naughty childs ya cant stay mad


LOL i knowww, My solid brindle ebt ate my thong once when she was pregnant, I did'nt know this till she puked em up in the garden all intacked aswell  
My son came out with the usawal comment which was ..i'm suprised she did'nt snuff it scoffing them  cheeky git.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> LOL i knowww, My solid brindle ebt ate my thong once when she was pregnant, I did'nt know this till she puked em up in the garden all intacked aswell
> My son came out with the usawal comment which was ..i'm suprised she did'nt snuff it scoffing them  cheeky git.


lol....im a little bit luckier cos cassie only pinches sock!


----------



## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

Ive only got to open my mouth if mine have done something wrong. This usually sends them running but I admit ive slapped their bums a couple of times, not hard enough to scare them though.
Ive found that both my breeds are quite sensitive so a telling off is normally enough.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

bullbreeds said:


> Ive only got to open my mouth if mine have done something wrong. This usually sends them running but I admit ive slapped their bums a couple of times, not hard enough to scare them though.
> Ive found that both my breeds are quite sensitive so a telling off is normally enough.


 same goes with mine !


----------



## lizd4688 (Jan 10, 2008)

... normally telling them off does the trick. they just look at me and put their heads down...lol
you can tell when they do something wrong.
they have guilt written all over their faces.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

lizd4688 said:


> ... normally telling them off does the trick. they just look at me and put their heads down...lol
> you can tell when they do something wrong.
> they have guilt written all over their faces.


i love that look! i say to cassie 'yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyoooooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuu bad girl' and she is off all sulky


----------



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Anyone that is misguided enough to physically abuse their dog, is asking for trouble. Dogs do NOT think as we do and the sooner people learn to understand this the better.

A dogs initial reaction to being hurt is to attack. I thought the bad old days of Barbara Woodhouse, and rubbing dogs noses in their poo had gone!

Reward based training, while ignoring unwanted behaviour is essential to good dog ownership. If I witnessed anyone hitting their dog I would reach for the phone and dial the RSPCA without hesitation.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Anyone that is misguided enough to physically abuse their dog, is asking for trouble. Dogs do NOT think as we do and the sooner people learn to understand this the better.
> 
> A dogs initial reaction to being hurt is to attack. I thought the bad old days of Barbara Woodhouse, and rubbing dogs noses in their poo had gone!
> 
> Reward based training, while ignoring unwanted behaviour is essential to good dog ownership. If I witnessed anyone hitting their dog I would reach for the phone and dial the RSPCA without hesitation.


but ceasar millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!?? Even in his book he is qwick to point out that when young thats the first thing there mother would do !


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

garryd said:


> but ceasar millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!?? Even in his book he is qwick to point out that when young thats the first thing there mother would do !


Iv'e been told the same that thats what the mother does.


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

garryd said:


> but ceasar millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!?? Even in his book he is qwick to point out that when young thats the first thing there mother would do !


me too!...............


----------



## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

Nina Cole said:


> Anyone that is misguided enough to physically abuse their dog, is asking for trouble. Dogs do NOT think as we do and the sooner people learn to understand this the better.
> 
> A dogs initial reaction to being hurt is to attack. I thought the bad old days of Barbara Woodhouse, and rubbing dogs noses in their poo had gone!
> 
> Reward based training, while ignoring unwanted behaviour is essential to good dog ownership. If I witnessed anyone hitting their dog I would reach for the phone and dial the RSPCA without hesitation.


EXACTLY what I was about to say!


----------



## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

garryd said:


> but ceasar millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!?? Even in his book he is qwick to point out that when young thats the first thing there mother would do !


Do you believe everything you see on the TV?


----------



## lizd4688 (Jan 10, 2008)

i have seen the mum give her pup a jab to behave.....it does the trick....but the sulky face is so funny


----------



## Vixie (Nov 17, 2007)

Dawny said:


> Do you believe everything you see on the TV?


no but there is a difference between a little nudgeand a beating and what is being said is a bit of a nudge in the dogs side, not hitting it, which I would never do or condone anyone doing


----------



## englishrose943 (Feb 7, 2008)

Eolabeo said:


> 9 outta 10 times the look i give em and me pointing is enough to make em scarpa lol.


cani ask you a question whos that pic off on ur replies?


----------



## Leanne1989 (Nov 11, 2007)

i never hit mine but agree with millian that a jab in the back of the neck is sometimes needed. My bitches tell ther puppies off if they mis behave and i belive that dogs need boundries....saying that mine get away with murder!! LIttle sods there just too cute
My mastiffs need far less correcting than my chi's!!


----------



## Guest (Feb 21, 2008)

lizd4688 said:


> i have seen the mum give her pup a jab to behave.....it does the trick....but the sulky face is so funny


i always thought a quick jab was only natural


----------



## maria. (Feb 16, 2008)

Oh no i could neva smack mine! altho i have to admit i did quite firmly tap ollie hard on the nose once frightened him shitless poor babe, i felt soo guilty afterwards tho. reason i tapped him was coz i caught him munchin on a packet of tablets that my dad dropped on the floor frightened the life outta me. luckily he didnt eat them i caught him in time, and my dad had a right bollockin 2


----------



## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Nina Cole said:


> Anyone that is misguided enough to physically abuse their dog, is asking for trouble. Dogs do NOT think as we do and the sooner people learn to understand this the better.
> 
> A dogs initial reaction to being hurt is to attack. I thought the bad old days of Barbara Woodhouse, and rubbing dogs noses in their poo had gone!
> 
> Reward based training, while ignoring unwanted behaviour is essential to good dog ownership. If I witnessed anyone hitting their dog I would reach for the phone and dial the RSPCA without hesitation.


I'm sorry Nina in my opinion your view on this issue is drivel. You may think your a behaviour adviser and know best but that isn't the case. All the dogs I ever had have been tapped, and on rare occasions, smacked. They learn we move on. I have never had a reaction or attack off a dog I tapped/smacked.

Dogs need to know whos leader of the pack, never hurts to reaffirm the leader.


----------



## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Won't be long before people start saying being firm with your dog (such as shouting NO) is considered emotional abuse by some softly softly liberal do gooder.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

As i said, i have slapped my dogs on the rump, And what i mean by slap is a light tap, mine have never shown aggression when i do this but they have shown my light slaps work by doing as they are told.

again i hav'nt always got to do this light slap, My look or point ( i point because i have 2 deaf dogs) also work.

By the way...Good morning all


----------



## Angel (Jan 3, 2008)

No i dont smack my dog, i just have to say a firm NO and thats enough for her..


----------



## bordercolliepup (Jan 9, 2008)

Now before I begin , I don't judge noone and I'm not going to start a debate,

I have never smacked my dog , she knows if she has done something wrong , she bows her head and her eyes look up at me , as to say I 'm sorry mum, I have shouted at her . I have heard that smacking a dog can bring the worst out of him , Animal care also taught us not to hit a dog,

I do know my father in law hits his dog , and I have told him of it as its a little on the hard side , the only problem is the dog knows if its done wrong and if you go near him when hes been naughty he will pee himself , I have told the FIN that the dog is going to be a very scared dog and I don't want him to be a troubled dog , but then Its none of my buisness its his dog after all .

Not saying all dogs are like this and as I said I'm not judging anyone its totally up to you how you tell your dog off so no long debates over this LOL.
Dogs do need to know who's boss or else your have trouble on your hands .


----------



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

Gary, I have NEVER witnessed Cesar Milan abusing a dog and I find him compulsive viewing.

If you watch a pack of wolves feeding, there will be much growling and baring of teeth, but it rarely results in a pack member being attacked. Of course they are always exceptions!

A mother wolf/dog will often pin their puppy down by way of chastisement, and an omega wolf will always lower their body as an act of submission.

I wrongly assumed we were talking about physical abuse!


----------



## bullbreeds (Jan 14, 2008)

I too have seen Cesar Milan use this method and I hardly think it constitutes abuse! It wouldnt be broadcasted if that were the case.


----------



## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dog are very simple creatures, however each dog is different and what works for one doesn't for another. dogs should be trained first and formost to understand what you expect from them, every owner has different expectations. So say I had a pup, it would be trained with clicker and food to lie down on command, so it really understands what down means, once the food is removed you will go through a stage of resistance where the dog says if you aren't feeding me, i aren't doing it, at which point i would push it over. You only need to do it two or three times, the dog says got you. Some of you may think this is hard, but it means we have a strongly trained down that can be used in any situation, dog heading towards something that may cause it harm, down it and the situation is over.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

Dawny said:


> Do you believe everything you see on the TV?


Well hes a world renowned dog trainer ,so yeah  i have also read his book ! Maybe you should !


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> Gary, I have NEVER witnessed Cesar Milan abusing a dog and I find him compulsive viewing.
> 
> If you watch a pack of wolves feeding, there will be much growling and baring of teeth, but it rarely results in a pack member being attacked. Of course they are always exceptions!
> 
> ...


No thats cool i wasnt picking the bones outa what you said ether ! he does jab to the neck of a dog as a deterant! i allso have seen him many times grab a dog and pin it down !
If most on here saw a man in a park behave like that ,they would go and report him lol


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

Never would I hit a dog ever,all it teaches is them to be hand shy and fear.

I will raise my voice and that is enough.A dog should do things for it's owner because it wants to please not out of fear.

We will have people saying the E-Collars are fine next,when infact they are cruel.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Never would I hit a dog ever,all it teaches is them to be hand shy and fear.
> 
> I will raise my voice and that is enough.A dog should do things for it's owner because it wants to please not out of fear.
> 
> We will have people saying the E-Collars are fine next,when infact they are cruel.


but ceasar millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!?? Even in his book he is qwick to point out that when young thats the first thing there mother would do !
So you dont agree with ceaser millan then sallyanne !??? you should read his book its realy good!


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

garryd said:


> but ceasar millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!?? Even in his book he is qwick to point out that when young thats the first thing there mother would do !
> So you dont agree with ceaser millan then sallyanne !??? you should read his book its realy good!


Maybe he does,I like the reward good behaviour,ignore bad theory,it's worked well for my dogs.

I take it your a fan of his Garry,I've seen him on occasions not something I'd make an effort to watch though.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Maybe he does,I like the reward good behaviour,ignore bad theory,it's worked well for my dogs.
> 
> I take it your a fan of his Garry,I've seen him on occasions not something I'd make an effort to watch though.


they recon hes on of the greatest dog trainer ever!?? Yeah i do watch his show,but is book is awsome


----------



## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

Cesar Milan is pretty amazing.
Please can we stop this ridiculous notion that a jab/slap on the rump is abuse.
Causing lasting physical pain, brusing, punching, kicking that is abuse.

I know it's completely different but it's just a thought for you guys to think about :

In the old days children were disciplined wth a smack on teh bottom, twist of the ear etc, and it kept them in line.

Today it is just about illegal to discipline a child physically, but look what has happened to respect and authority, take a look at the youth of today.


----------



## PatioDogDoors (Nov 27, 2007)

that's right we must not hurt our pet. what they need is care.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

colacooler said:


> Cesar Milan is pretty amazing.
> Please can we stop this ridiculous notion that a jab/slap on the rump is abuse.
> Causing lasting physical pain, brusing, punching, kicking that is abuse.
> 
> ...


Very nicely said.
Again the obvious few have made a very rare jab/slap which is nothing out to be a kick punch beat abuse thing.

My dogs are VERY happy dogs and very convident, The worst mine have copped is a slap on the rear end ( not a ******* beating) And thats only if they do something very bad which is'nt often.
so stop trying to make something sound worse then what it is..my god.


----------



## colacooler (Nov 19, 2007)

At least someone agreed with me!
Thanks Elo, yes it's very rare it happens, if it happened all the time - it would be proof that it didn't work in the first place!


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

Thats right  I bet half of these on here that have said they don't do that to their dogs have at one point given them a little telling off jab.
Anyways as i said, My dogs are very happy dogs and thats all that matters to me


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

colacooler said:


> At least someone agreed with me!
> Thanks Elo, yes it's very rare it happens, if it happened all the time - it would be proof that it didn't work in the first place!


For the record i agree with yas!


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

garryd said:


> For the record i agree with yas!


Cheers gaz.

Again you ask a simple question, We answer, Again a few make something out to be far worse then what it is....fook living next door to them thats all i can say.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

colacooler said:


> Cesar Milan is pretty amazing.
> Please can we stop this ridiculous notion that a jab/slap on the rump is abuse.
> Causing lasting physical pain, brusing, punching, kicking that is abuse.
> 
> ...


i also agree with this. this is what is wrong today people are trying to stop you making a child/dog aware that bad actions have consequences! thats why the worlds in the state it is!


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

For the record I have never hit slapped or whatever else,either my dogs or children.
Nor would I,you don't have to use physical force to disapline either a dog or children! It's not necessary.

If you slap a child you are giving the message that any form of Violence is acceptable,when infact it's not.

Violence Breeds Violence,perhaps thats why the world is in the state it's in!


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> For the record I have never hit slapped or whatever else,either my dogs or children.
> Nor would I,you don't have to use physical force to disapline either a dog or children! It's not necessary.
> 
> If you slap a child you are giving the message that any form of Violence is acceptable,when infact it's not.
> ...


i don't believe thats all ways the case though Sallyanne , we ain't supposed to hit are kids anymore but look at the state the country's in !
Back when we were aloud to discipline our kids ,they were much more well behaved and not going around making nascences of themselves outside of shops etc ,getting drunk ,being cheeky to adults etc etc 
In my opinion ,its because of this easyer attitude on discipline by parents as to why their running us wild and the country's in the state its in with these un ruley teenagers !


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

If they were any sort of decent parents they would know exactly where and what there childen were doing.

I have 3 kids,16yrs,12ys and 11 yrs,my 16 yr and my 11 yr old are both special needs are better behaved than some kids of there ages,because I'm firm with them but fair.
My eldest boy is 16yrs,never have I hit or slapped him,no he's not perfect but he is not allowed to be unruly,I know where he is and what he's doing,it's part of been a responsible mother.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> If they were any sort of decent parents they would know exactly where and what there childen were doing.
> 
> I have 3 kids,16yrs,12ys and 11 yrs,my 16 yr and my 11 yr old are both special needs are better behaved than some kids of there ages,because I'm firm with them but fair.
> My eldest boy is 16yrs,never have I hit or slapped him,no he's not perfect but he is not allowed to be unruly,I know where he is and what he's doing,it's part of been a responsible mother.


yeah and that has worked for your shildren but its not the same for all. i am the first to admit that i was a bad child and if it wasnt for my mothers way of controling ( a good slap for cheek) me i would have been worse! and they way she dealt with it won me round i have 2 children now a decent job a good partner who works who was also diciplined same as me, were buying our own house so not all bad really! god knows where id be if i wasnt diciplined this way


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

claire said:


> yeah and that has worked for your shildren but its not the same for all. i am the first to admit that i was a bad child and if it wasnt for my mothers way of controling ( a good slap for cheek) me i would have been worse! and they way she dealt with it won me round i have 2 children now a decent job a good partner who works who was also diciplined same as me, were buying our own house so not all bad really! god knows where id be if i wasnt diciplined this way


That just where i was coming from!


----------



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

PLEASE do not see dogs and children in the same light. They are WORLDS apart. Chastising a dog cannot be likened to chastising a child. One is human, the other canine.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

anymore 4 anymore


----------



## totalzoo (Feb 20, 2008)

yup. but it depends on the dog and the situation. 

Perky-yes, why? becase she LOVES it, weird dog hates it when dont get rough with her lol. 

Ripley-never. why? it would cross the line with his temperment and make him aggressive. 

Electra-never. why? she is too soft

Happy-rarely. why? she is a BC and sometimes she gets so caught up in her drive that she will injure my other pets, I slap her if I need to snap her out of it. 

Misty-quite often actually lol. why? she is stubborn, often a smack upside the head is the only thing that gets her attention and makes her go "oh right! you exist!"

Rusty-absolutly. why? he is nasty and needs to be kept in check, I have often been critisized for some if the things I have done with that dog, but frankly I tried every last postive methode with him, I tried mild corrections etc.. and it only got worse, to the point that he needed to be muzzled and leashed at ALL times because he walked around randomly attacking the other dogs(and I do mean random, he would actually wake up in the middle of the night wander over to a sleeping dog and just start attacking), for months my cone collar was forever in use, with legs,and faces being ripped open, eyes and ears being punctured and torn etc.. I finally got fed up with the nicitys, and he has been an angel ever since, in fact he is now inseperable from the dog he used to attack the most. and Rusty still adores me lol


----------



## dogsdinner (Nov 6, 2007)

Yes, if needs be but thats not often. Hardly ever really, last resort stuff.


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2008)

totalzoo said:


> yup. but it depends on the dog and the situation.
> 
> Perky-yes, why? becase she LOVES it, weird dog hates it when dont get rough with her lol.
> 
> ...


God hate to think what this guy thinks its ok to do to kids


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2008)

Nina Cole said:


> PLEASE do not see dogs and children in the same light. They are WORLDS apart. Chastising a dog cannot be likened to chastising a child. One is human, the other canine.


Of course they are,but I see no need to hit, slap, or whatever else to either a dog or a child.To me these sort of people are looking for a quick fix solution,it's the same with E-Collars,they are cruel and totally un-necessary another quick fix solution instead of putting extra time into positive training methods.

Dogs don't and can't think like humans do,so for example on your return home you find a mess of shredded stuff,papers,chewed up stuff etc,you hit the dog for destructive behaviour,the dog associates your displeasure with returning home not the mess it's made.

Most of the time it's not the dogs fault its ours for not supervising them closely enough.


----------



## Nina (Nov 2, 2007)

My sentiments exactly GaryG. As far as I am aware, it is an offence to use corporal punishment on a dog.

I think any decent human being would report cruelty in any form.


----------



## Nigel (Feb 24, 2008)

I've never hit or slapped either of our dogs, never had to. They've had a good firm telling off before now but never done anything so bad to get that angry with them, even when they were puppies they where well behaved. Been quite lucky with them really


----------



## tracyi (Jan 8, 2008)

I give my german shepherd a smack on the muscle on his back leg, if I didn't keep him under control he would be dominant to me and everyone else around, that ain't happening!
The jab on the neck never worked for him, shouting makes him excited, and ignoring bad behaviour makes him do even more bad behaviour.
This is the only thing he takes notice of, and when I get another dog I will discipline them in the way that works for them, all dogs are different.
I think if I seen an owner of a large dog giving them a jab when they need it I would be quite relieved, there is too many owners who don't give a damn about their dogs behaviour!


----------



## tracyi (Jan 8, 2008)

I don't smack my kids though. Although some could be done with a good wallop


----------



## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

Usually Milo just gets a finger in the face and told he's naughty and that's enough to send him off in a sulk. I don't have a anything against giving a smack on the bum though.


----------



## Kerrisgirl (Feb 27, 2008)

Very rarely with one of them .
Our little lab x i never have to do anything except raise my voice a little and she bloody well knows,but she is 5 and very experienced.
The other one is a male only 11 months and still a handful.
Sometimes he would get a very light slap on the rump if he is going mental.
I dont actually consider that wrong though,it doesn't hurt him and it does focus him on what i'm saying.
I would never stand by and see a dog being beaten and indeed have rang our local spca when i witnessed a neighbour doing so.


----------



## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

colacooler said:


> Cesar Milan is pretty amazing.
> Please can we stop this ridiculous notion that a jab/slap on the rump is abuse.
> Causing lasting physical pain, brusing, punching, kicking that is abuse.
> 
> ...


It is not abuse. It just doesn't work. Dogs are not children. Dogs are far from human and respond in completely different ways.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2008)

Dawny said:


> It is not abuse. It just doesn't work. Dogs are not children. Dogs are far from human and respond in completely different ways.


So you think ceasr millans way just doesent work then The best dog trainer in the world is just talking SH*T on that TV show of his


----------



## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

lizd4688 said:


> i have seen the mum give her pup a jab to behave.....it does the trick....but the sulky face is so funny


Does your hand look like a bitch's mouth? No.
Do you have the same connection with your dog as your dog had with its mother? No.
Do puppies think the same as adult dogs? No.


----------



## Dawny (Nov 26, 2007)

I have watched the dog whisperer many times and I have to switch it off because it makes me so angry. He does not abuse but his methods are ridiculous. Every dog I have seen on that show is scared witless. I don't believe in any punishment methods and all the Animal Behaviourists I'm aware of have the same view.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2008)

Dawny said:


> Does your hand look like a bitch's mouth? No.
> Do you have the same connection with your dog as your dog had with its mother? No.
> Do puppies think the same as adult dogs? No.


So i say it again Dawny ,if you think this ,then you must think that Cesar Milan and his TV show The Dog Whisperer, don't know what hes talking about with this method! even though he is world renowned as the world best dog trainer !


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2008)

garryd said:


> So i say it again Dawny ,if you think this ,then you must think that Cesar Milan and his TV show The Dog Whisperer, don't know what hes talking about with this method! even though he is world renowned as the world best dog trainer !


I wonder how much he gets paid,surely that has more to do with it


----------



## jacks4me (Sep 8, 2008)

I dont smack my three,however we are on a farm and have horses,cows chooks-you name it.I have taught my dogs to be in the bottom of the pack yet if they play up I use empty threats.I say do you want a smack-immediately they come and give me a cuddle-hilarious.I would never smack-they dont need it,they are like my kids.I also roll up a newspaper-another empty threat, and they come and cuddle-id never use it.They are my babies and are very well behaved but im not biased.Ha ha


----------



## jacks4me (Sep 8, 2008)

****** said:


> but ceasar millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!?? Even in his book he is qwick to point out that when young thats the first thing there mother would do !


yeah-and have you noticed the bite scars all over his hands and arms?hes way too harsh.there are better methods than his bullying and aggressiveness,without being bitten by your dog or them ending up turning on you from abuse.Its funny the way he talks about his energy-well what a contradiction..no wonder the dogs obey(well after a lot of editing)they are sh**t scared of him..just watch their calming signals..people are so naive


----------



## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

No, I don't smack Oscar and I doubt I ever will. I use tones of my voice to convey my feelings. A simple stern "Oscar NO" works for me and I walk away from him. I want him to know that if he does something unacceptable, he won't get showered with attention but I don't want him to be afraid of me.


----------



## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Mine keeps pinching the toilet rolls.


----------



## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

i never smack dont think it gets you anyware, firm voice and bed if she is really bad.


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

Shila has only ever been smacked once and that was for biting me, my voice and pointing is enough for her, Isis is a different matter as she was abused so her telling off is me saying "erm excuse me " and she knows i know it sounds odd but she does know 
Can i just add shila didn't get a beating but her smack was across her nose and she bit me because she didn't want me on the trampoline


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

Jem85 said:


> Shila has only ever been smacked once and that was for biting me, my voice and pointing is enough for her, Isis is a different matter as she was abused so her telling off is me saying "erm excuse me " and she knows i know it sounds odd but she does know
> Can i just add shila didn't get a beating but her smack was across her nose and she bit me because she didn't want me on the trampoline


haha thats exactly wat i say to my dogs...the *erm* excuse me*....they look and put their head down low as if their in big trouble, then they run to their beds lol and look lol.

2 mins later, their back out again like nothings hapened


----------



## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

Both mine know what the word "naughty" means so all I have to say is "you naughty girl/boy" and they know I'm not happy, they both sheepishly wag their tails at me and creep round me as though to say sooorrry mum  

Have I ever hit them? No Way!!!!! 

They hate being ignored more than anything so find that much more effective than being physical


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

i personally dont think that a tap on the nose,or a slight jab shown by cesar milan has ever hurt any dog.if done gently and at the right moment its the shock or surprise that will stop the dog in its tracks,and not the force thats applied.i personally wouldnt hurt any animal,but they need to know when there actions are unacceptable and a tap often does the trick.im not talking about older dogs,as they should already have been taught and trained at an earlier age.in my opinion there are to many namby pamby do gooders who let there pets get away with unsocial behavior,the same people can be seen out with their kids(DONT DO THAT,STOPPIT,DONT DO THAT,DONT DO THAT,and so on)they have absolutely no respect for there parents,and can get away with murder,and often grow up to do exactly that.its a pity cesar milan doesnt deal with kids as well.soneone mentioned a rolled up newspaper (i have no problem with that)but it stands to reason for a dog to know what a rolled up newspaper means,it must have been tapped with it at least once in its life,and it has obviously done the trick.like people some animals are more strong willed than others,some need a stronger reprimand than others,and if a tap on the nose,a slight jab,or a rolled up newspaper leads to a better life for the animal,its owner and other people,then so be it.


----------



## jeanie (Nov 11, 2007)

I dont slap my dogs but i use voice and a point, they know when they are doing wrong, i use stop and it usually works they go off and do something else, mind you sometimes i get mad but manage to keep it inside  i never hit my kids either but they were checked in other ways .


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

we all have our own point of view,but the same website says its okay to squirt a dog with cold water.whats tha difference?


----------



## Georges Mum (Aug 12, 2008)

I don't slap mine. The voice is usually enough. If i ever have to really reprimand them i pull them once by the collar into a sit and make them look at me and pay attention but this is really rare. if never!


----------



## poochimama (Apr 24, 2008)

NO WAY!! a sharp NO or a pointed finger but never smack my dogs


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

a tap has escalated into a slap,i think there is a difference.


----------



## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

I've never tapped/slapped Toffee ... a firm tone of voice has always been enough

but with him trying it on constantly lately, I believe he thinks his name has changed to 'Oy behave'


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm surprised how many people are shocked by this question. I don't smack my dogs as a punishment but they get a good slapping and ragging around when we're playing, they enjoy it.


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

Mese said:


> I've never tapped/slapped Toffee ... a firm tone of voice has always been enough
> 
> but with him trying it on constantly lately, I believe he thinks his name has changed to 'Oy behave'


lol........


----------



## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Toff loves it when my OH plays with him cos Steve is rougher with him , playing wise , than I am


----------



## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I don't smack/hit, I do give them the odd tap if they are doing wrong. Not enough to hurt them, just enough to give them a bit of a fright and stop what they are doing.

Breagha also loves a game we call 'Bum Smacks' where she stands there and we we smack her bottom gently, she loves it, and when we stop, she comes and puts her bottom in our face!


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> I'm surprised how many people are shocked by this question. I don't smack my dogs as a punishment but they get a good slapping and ragging around when we're playing, they enjoy it.





Mese said:


> Toff loves it when my OH plays with him cos Steve is rougher with him , playing wise , than I am


this is all related to the dogooder society we live in,any so called dog expert will tell you this is wrong.it will read to aggression etc,dont play rough ,dont use tugger toys etc.
the worlds gone mad


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

dogpositivetraining said:


> If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, then the difference is:
> 
> A squirt of water from a child's toy water pistol is not punishment. I only ever use this method when teaching a puppy what is right and wrong with regards to what is not okay to chew and what is.
> 
> ...


thanks for the answer,but i can see absolutely no difference to tapping the puppy to shock and not to hurt,than squirting it ,i would consider that cruel.
no rudeness intended. just my opinion.


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

What would smacking a dog achieve? Sorry for sounding thick but I dont see why anyone would smack a dog except to hurt the dog.

I can understand rough and tumble and maybe a friendly tap but smacking a dog is as bad as smacking a child imo.


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> What would smacking a dog achieve? Sorry for sounding thick but I dont see why anyone would smack a dog except to hurt the dog.
> 
> I can understand rough and tumble and maybe a friendly tap but smacking a dog is as bad as smacking a child imo.


(i would never SMACK a dog):


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

rocky said:


> this is all related to the dogooder society we live in,any so called dog expert will tell you this is wrong.it will read to aggression etc,dont play rough ,dont use tugger toys etc.
> the worlds gone mad


Don't get me started on that subject.


----------



## Sophiex (Jul 27, 2008)

dogpositivetraining said:


> Strictly in relation to chewing: the problem with tapping a puppy to dissuade inappropriate chewing is that if you physically tap then your puppy knows the tap came from you, therefore the correction came from you.
> 
> What you want is for your puppy to think the correction came from the object or the intent to chew something inappropriate. This is best achieved by using something that is not connected to you the human.
> 
> ...


That was very interesting to read and makes a lot of sense.


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> Don't get me started on that subject.


Oh Alan, get started you know u wanna. Besides a good healthy debate is just what I need.


----------



## Guest (Sep 8, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Oh Alan, get started you know u wanna. Besides a good healthy debate is just what I need.


You'll have to start a new thread about play fighting then, I wouldn't want to go off topic!


----------



## kevin (Aug 1, 2008)

I've never used the method of smacking nor tapping any of my dogs, mainly because I feel it's unfair. I believe hitting your dog is likely to cause it to be aggressive due to fear of others.

Also I look at it in the way that how would we like it if we were dogs and was hit by something 10 times the size? I know for a fact I wouldn't like it at all.

I use a bottle with tiny stones in filled about quarter full then if the dogs do anything wrong I give it a hard shake or just by shouting the dogs name fairly loud to make them jump.

If I ever witnessed someone hitting a dog I wouldn't think twice about reporting them.


----------



## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

All my dogs are quite sensitive so I would not slap them other than in play. I clap my hands and then they look at me and I tell em No or call them to settle....Jill


----------



## Guest (Sep 9, 2008)

So what would u do if ur dog bit u then? 
What would your actions be? x


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

kevin said:


> I've never used the method of smacking nor tapping any of my dogs, mainly because I feel it's unfair. I believe hitting your dog is likely to cause it to be aggressive due to fear of others.
> 
> Also I look at it in the way that how would we like it if we were dogs and was hit by something 10 times the size? I know for a fact I wouldn't like it at all.
> 
> ...


If I ever witnessed someone using a rattle bottle I wouldn't think twice about telling them what I thought of them.  Might not make physical contact, but is pretty much as cruel as hitting a dog IMO, especially considering it is used a lot of already frightened dogs.

No, I do not hit/smack/tap or slap my dogs. The ONLY thing I can see that smacking does is to make the person doing the hitting feel better. It isn't constructuive and there is no need for it.

I don't smack my children, who speak the same language as me and have a sense of rigth and wrong, so why woudl I hit a dog, who does not?


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

i dont smack my dogs ... the leave command seems to work in this house pretty well   (im really surprised that it does work lol )

But...if they play rough or are over excited and by accident snap at my hand i do give a shout from me (mostly because i get scared myself) and they look so surprised at me when i do that.

I think most of people might have a point in life where they not far away from crossing the line and maybe smack the dog as the dog might push and push and cross the line but the thing is... u have to use ur brain and stay calm and controlled.

The saddest thing is if u raise ur hand and the dog goes into a scared position...thats where u should overthink if owning a dog is the right thing for u.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I would say never say never when it comes to smacking. To say you would never under any circumstance smack your dog would mean either you have a limited imagination or your dog is actually an android! Sorry if that sounds a bit b%$chy but Im a born pessimist and can imagine the worst. You should never hit a dog but if an incident occured where you, your dog or others were being put in danger and all other efforts to control your dog had failed then smack away! (I once beat a large boxer with a metal end of a lead. It had run out from someone's garden whilst I was walking my dog and leapt straight for me in attack mode.What if I'd been a small child?)
Having said that I tend to just say AH AH! to interrupt Adam then try to replace the bad behaviour with good. Although one of my cats I smack quite often coz he really enjoys it, freaky little pervert!!


----------



## Sgurr (Aug 24, 2008)

No, I do not smack my dogs.
But I make the distinction between using force to defend yourself or protect others and if hitting a dog with a crook (shepherd's walking stick) stops it from biting me, then I would do it. Similarly if a dog was attacking one of my sheep.

Sgurr


----------



## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

I would never condone any sort of postive punishment to a behaviour wether its a smack, squirt of water or a loud noise. However there is a difference between smacking and actually hurting a dog. When i think of smackingit is just a tap. my dogs will get one on the bum if i catch them with their head in the bin or other such behaviours and i want to suprise them. it doest hurt them and i use less force then i do when play fighting. i know you may think im punishing my dog but im not really angry at them, i dont mind them in the bin, its purely a game of iv caught you, and they no that


----------



## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

No, there is no need the tone of my voice, body language and positive treat based training is all I have used and we've done okay.

Sue


----------



## Guest (Sep 10, 2008)

I understand the benefits of behaviour modification by use of positive reinforcement and all I can say is lucky you if this alone works for your dog. We have tried this and persisted but it is just not working enough and so now if I see any really bad behaviour I give him a tap on his bum. My oh's dad has kept and bred dogs for over 50 yrs and it has never done any of them any harm.

Im talking about a light smack on the butt just as he's doing the naughty behaviour (after a warning - a loud "no" with a pointed finger). I do not under any circumstances condone smacking after the behaviour eg. if you come home to find your dog has chewed something while you were out. This will not teach the dog anything at all as they will not assc the two things.

I once witnessed a man walking by a busy road with a springer kept off lead. the dog left his side and ran into the road ahead of him. When the guy finally caught him he grabbed him hold and whacked him so hard with the chain lead... it was awful. So I can see how people could take the smacking thing way too far but for us it is working ok and its a pretty rare occurence anyway.

Its people like that I feel that the RSPCA need to be looking for, not people like us! As soon as zach shows the correct behaviour I reward him with a treat or a game, hes right as rain. its more of a snap-him-outta-it kinda thing. plus hes a large breed with a lot of meat on his behind, dunno if i could tap a smaller more delicate breed...


----------



## Guest (Sep 10, 2008)

also, i love cesar millans show and i have had a quick look at his book. i think hes brilliant with dogs and his success shows he knows what hes doing... but i think ppl need to read the "never attempt any of the techniques seen on this show" at the start of the prog. it makes an interesting watch, but remember you only see 15 mins of his work per dog... probably not a fraction of what he does so i wouldnt really feel comfortable tryin to replicate his methods...


----------



## Guest (Sep 10, 2008)

cassie01 said:


> I would never condone any sort of postive punishment to a behaviour wether its a smack, squirt of water or a loud noise. However there is a difference between smacking and actually hurting a dog. When i think of smackingit is just a tap. my dogs will get one on the bum if i catch them with their head in the bin or other such behaviours and i want to suprise them. it doest hurt them and i use less force then i do when play fighting. i know you may think im punishing my dog but im not really angry at them, i dont mind them in the bin, its purely a game of iv caught you, and they no that


If someone smacked me cause they found me with my head in the fridge (again) i wouldn't find it very funny nor would I find it to be a game.

Why do u need to smack your dog. My pup is 13 weeks old and she already knows NO and responds - no further disciplinary treatment is needed.

Would you smack a child as a game?


----------



## jackson (May 22, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> I understand the benefits of behaviour modification by use of positive reinforcement and all I can say is lucky you if this alone works for your dog. We have tried this and persisted but it is just not working enough and so now if I see any really bad behaviour I give him a tap on his bum. My oh's dad has kept and bred dogs for over 50 yrs and it has never done any of them any harm.
> 
> Im talking about a light smack on the butt just as he's doing the naughty behaviour (after a warning - a loud "no" with a pointed finger). I do not under any circumstances condone smacking after the behaviour eg. if you come home to find your dog has chewed something while you were out. This will not teach the dog anything at all as they will not assc the two things.
> 
> ...


There is nothing lucky about having a well trained dog, trained only using positive methods, aside from the odd 'no'. it is down to hard, hard work.

All that smacking your dog will teach it is that if it does a certain thing, you will hit it. So it will avoid doing it. I would prefer my dogs to do waht i want for other reasons, personally.

I have trained all my girls without ever resorting to hitting them, and that includes a working gun dog, who is always far better behaved in the field than the dogs who get hit/beaten/shocked with collars.

I am not even going to get started on CM.


----------



## Guest (Sep 11, 2008)

my dog is a happy healthy very much loved dog who learns pretty much through positive reinforcement but now and then when he is really naughty and isnt gettin the message gets a little tap on his behind which shows him what hes doing at that precise time is the undesired behaviour. he gets a lot of praise and games for the other 99.9 % of the time. thats all im saying on this


----------



## cassie01 (Jul 11, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> If someone smacked me cause they found me with my head in the fridge (again) i wouldn't find it very funny nor would I find it to be a game.
> 
> Why do u need to smack your dog. My pup is 13 weeks old and she already knows NO and responds - no further disciplinary treatment is needed.
> 
> Would you smack a child as a game?


i didnt say i smaked them hard, i would never hurt my dogs, im sorry if the way i worded it made it sound that way. its not a proper smack in the way others would think of it but its just what we call it, it is a very light tap nothing more. its lighter then when we playfight. you knopw when you tap your nose when somethings a secret, its more like that. im not a monster and i would never hurt my dogs. it doesnt even startle them as they more then likely no im there, they understand no if they have their head somewhere they are not but sometimes they do get a tap, as in "ive caught you" its the same thing. there is no problem with it at all.


----------



## Le Loup (May 23, 2008)

Must admit i give Mack a slap across his backside when he does something really naughty. I know he doesn't feel it coz 5 mins later he'll do the naughty thing again *meh face* plus he shows you when he's hurt lol, he's a right wuss. 

My other dog Rosie never really does many naughty things but if she does usually just the fact she's been caught is bad enough to her lol. When she was a pup and she did something (like stealing the chicken off the work top :O ) I'd tap her nose. It doesn't hurt but the shock of you actually "hitting" them is enough for them to realise it was a bad thing. like tapping a kid on the hand when they do something naughty lol.

Just like wolves in the wild teach their pups that if they do something they aren't meant to they get a gentle nip  but obviously i wouldn't go around biting my dogs haha.

I have shouted at someone for belting their dog with the metal end of a lead once because that is going way too far and also the poor dog did nothing wrong but make an intrest in my dogs.


----------



## Guest (Sep 14, 2008)

Le Loup said:


> Must admit i give Mack a slap across his backside when he does something really naughty. I know he doesn't feel it coz 5 mins later he'll do the naughty thing again


 If he doesn't feel it and it doesn't have any affect on his behaviour, why do it at all?


----------



## dogz lover (Sep 26, 2009)

I would never smack any animal it is not necessary and will only teach an animal that you cannot be trusted, it will make them hand shy, I use my hands to praise and stroke my dogs. You need to train dogs and teach them good manners, socialise them really well, clicker training is effective


----------



## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

I give Tiger a tap on the nose when he misbehaves around Ruby (like showing his teeth at her or having a go at her for food) but this is purely because Ruby is Blind and I don't want her being startled by shouting as she won't understand that it isn't her being told off. Either that or I will just push him away. I'd rather not use verbal correction because i'd be worried that Ruby would think she was being punished for no reason.


----------



## BlueDay (Aug 12, 2009)

I will tap Buddy lightly when I want to catch his attention and make him focus on me. Thats as far as it goes. 

I dont believe in hitting animals.


----------



## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I never smack my dog, or any animal for that fact.


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Dogs do not smack each other so why do we assume they understand our type of violence? No I do not smack mine. They get reprimanded if neccessary by use of a growly voice . (hurts me more than it does them!)


----------



## Debbiehut (Sep 14, 2009)

No id never smack, or shout at anyone or any animal.


----------



## Guest (Sep 27, 2009)

no i do not and never would!


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

No, but I do use stern words when necessary, I don't think hitting is good for either beast nor man


----------



## madferrit* (Sep 17, 2009)

great discussion! I dont "smack" my dog, she's only 9 weeks so i wouldnt anyway but i have no problem with using the distraction method of a slight tap (as Cesar does) if needed to break her attention but right now im using the clicker method and it seems to be working really well - most of the time!!!
I know its off topic but i never realised some people found Cesar Milans methods upsetting, i really was amazed with his methods and his love of a dog being a dog but i suppose we cant all agree on everything can we?


----------



## welshdoglover (Aug 31, 2009)

When Cesar flashes his purple pants on TV, it's the dogs bo!!ox :001_tt2:

Yes, I fancy him! :smilewinkgrin:

Guess what, my OH is going to find a pair of sexy purple pants in his stocking this christmas! 

Knowing how dippy he is about dogs he won't pick up the hint ut:


----------



## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

colacooler said:


> I'm sorry Nina in my opinion your view on this issue is drivel. You may think your a behaviour adviser and know best but that isn't the case. All the dogs I ever had have been tapped, and on rare occasions, smacked. They learn we move on. I have never had a reaction or attack off a dog I tapped/smacked.
> 
> Dogs need to know whos leader of the pack, never hurts to reaffirm the leader.


completly agree..my dog tried the ignore the bad reward the good...got me as far as 3 of my fav shoes wrekd 4 of my daughters shoes wrekd twice my cable on the hoover was bitten through...on that last time i had enuf and she did get a smak not hard but from hen on shes learned and if she does something she quite clearly knows she shouldnt yes she will get a tellin off!! toddlers dont know the diffrence rom right and rong, not properly anyway but there are boundaries!!!!


----------



## madferrit* (Sep 17, 2009)

welshdoglover said:


> When Cesar flashes his purple pants on TV, it's the dogs bo!!ox :001_tt2:
> 
> Yes, I fancy him! :smilewinkgrin:
> 
> ...


LMAO!!! hope your OH has a dazzling smile too or he wont look right


----------



## madferrit* (Sep 17, 2009)

ha ha look at this i'm a thread killer lol.................


----------



## Lilac12 (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't know what anyone else is on about but if a dog needs discipline you should give it some physical contact. 
I can understand why people are afraid to hurt their dogs but imagine if it chewed up your favourite pair of shoes or soiled your bed covers, you would want to give some discipline. :thumbup:


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

Nope! I've even been known to cry (WHEN SOBER!) if I stand on a spider and hurt him 

Em
xx


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Lilac12 said:


> I don't know what anyone else is on about but if a dog needs discipline you should give it some physical contact.
> I can understand why people are afraid to hurt their dogs but imagine if it chewed up your favourite pair of shoes or soiled your bed covers, you would want to give some discipline. :thumbup:


What?! We _should_ be 'afraid' of hurting any other living thing :scared:

If *you* leave *your* favourite shoes within reach of a dog that *you* have not sufficiently chew toy trained then perhaps you should discipline yourself. Take some responsibility - we are the primates with big brains.

Why do we presume that discipline must hurt, cause distress and be aversive? What is wrong with society? Have we not evolved at all? 
I am not shocked by this sort of response at all - I come across it everyday. But I cannot ignore it - so worrying, depressing and just sad to me 

Why oh why did i look in on a thread that has been resurected after 3 years  Just goes to show not much changes.

Apologies for the rant


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Lilac12 said:


> I don't know what anyone else is on about but if a dog needs discipline you should give it some physical contact.
> I can understand why people are afraid to hurt their dogs but imagine if it *chewed up your favourite pair of shoes or soiled your bed covers*, you would want to give some discipline. :thumbup:


That's YOUR fault, not your dog's, you shouldn't leave your shoes where your dog can get them. Your dog doesn't understand the difference between your Jimmy Choos & their favourite chew toy


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> That's YOUR fault, not your dog's, you shouldn't leave your shoes where your dog can get them. Your dog doesn't understand the difference between your Jimmy Choos & their favourite chew toy


Bumby ate a pair of Gucci boots when I first had him :lol: if a human had chosen to destroy them I'd have been gutted...but as you say, I'd left them out (and he did look guilty)

Em
xx


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Eroswoof said:


> Bumby ate a pair of Gucci boots when I first had him :lol: if a human had chosen to destroy them I'd have been gutted...but as you say, I'd left them out (and he did look guilty)
> 
> Em
> xx


Our old dog chewed a lovely 'pattern' around the tops of my 2-day-old Dr Martens years ago, they looked very silly but I still wore them


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

OMG!!! What a depressing thread! I can't believe that there are supposed "dog lovers" out there who would even _contemplate _smacking a dog - and don't even start on the "leader of the pack" nonsense 

Don't you know anything about dogs???

I thought, by the title that this thread would have been humerous. I didn't think for one minute it was a serious question.

I may have to go and slit my wrists.


----------



## Guest (Feb 22, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Our old dog chewed a lovely 'pattern' around the tops of my 2-day-old Dr Martens years ago, they looked very silly but I still wore them


Lol I've still got mine in the hope science will one day be able to save them  

Em
xx


----------



## SophieCyde (Oct 24, 2010)

I have tapped murphy before , and even then I've felt guilty about it after. I would only do it though if he was putting his life in danger and thats because I'm so scared for him that it happens:eek6:


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

No I never smack my dogs but I do shout (OI!!!) at the top of my voice sometimes, particularly if they're about to case the cat.


----------



## billie jo (Feb 17, 2011)

The other day in work, Sammy, my biggest Mali did something - can't even remember what - but I raised my voice at him. The fear that crossed this dogs eyes was just awful to see. At that point I realised I had his lead in my hands. Sam has been trained to defend his handler at all costs. Someone, somewhere who has handled him (He's an ex Belguim police dog), it was clear to see, had beaten him with a lead! I felt physicaly sick! I wrapped my arms around him and told him that no one would ever do that to him again - I hope he understood me. Violence in my opinion breeds violence. When I took Sammy on people thought it would never work, that I wouldn't be able to do anything with this brave dog, with a heart of a lion - do you know what? Those same people are now shaking their heads and muttering that Sam is not the same dog that they knew from before - and they are right! Sam is at last happy! 

And one last thing guys - please don't leave your underwear or socks etc., where your dog can find them - ex laps (opening your dog up to remove foreign objects) are serious operations. Your dog could lose its life. 

Kaz


----------



## Leah84 (Jun 22, 2009)

Lilac12 said:


> I don't know what anyone else is on about but if a dog needs discipline you should give it some physical contact.
> I can understand why people are afraid to hurt their dogs but imagine if it chewed up your favourite pair of shoes or soiled your bed covers, you would want to give some discipline. :thumbup:


is it just me or does this post absolutely STINK of troll?? seems someone has registered in order to pull up an old thread and cause a stir....how sad


----------



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

billie jo said:


> And one last thing guys - please don't leave your underwear or socks etc., where your dog can find them - ex laps (opening your dog up to remove foreign objects) are serious operations. Your dog could lose its life.
> 
> Kaz


Ooow tell me about it. All of the Mals have eaten the odd toy or sock, just last week Flynn vomited up a small cloth ball of our pups and we thought we collected everything up. No ops though - thank the Lord and no lost dogs but it's so scarey that as soon as they find something it goes down their throat. Second biggest killer in Mals that is - extra vigillant now we have a pup again.

Glad Sam has a lovely new owner - must be so satisfying for you to see him trust again.


----------



## AristoDogz (Feb 18, 2011)

I bare my teeth or growl at my dogs if they are doing something they shouldn't..My friends and customers all think it's hillarious, but this seems to work. It doesn't work when they start barking, when they are over excited...(the dogs not my friends ) To stop the dogs barking I just have to show them the water pistol and they quieten down  x


----------



## jackano1 (Oct 18, 2010)

I dont smack my dogs.

I just alter the tone of my voice and give them a look that usually does the trick.

Janex


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> To stop the dogs barking I just have to show them the water pistol and they quieten down x


They are clearly terrified of having a jet of water sprayed on their face, then.

You advocate bullying as a form of training? How clever. How sad :crying:

_why am I bothering?_


----------



## AristoDogz (Feb 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> They are clearly terrified of having a jet of water sprayed on their face, then.
> 
> You advocate bullying as a form of training? How clever. How sad :crying:
> 
> _why am I bothering?_


Actually it is not bullying and I very much resent that statement from you!

You do not know my dogs and so you assume that they are terrified!

Well they are not!!!....MY DOGS ARE VERY WELL LOVED AND CARED FOR AND I WOULD NEVER SMACK OR SCARE MY DOGS!!!

They are not terrified if I show them a water pistol..we actually have fun in the garden with water from hoses and water pistols...for some reason they stop barking when the water pistol comes out..it is nothing to be scared of for them.

Why am I bothering???? your tone is offensive!!


----------



## sas2506 (Feb 22, 2011)

I do, when hes done something that he knows he should not do. Before you all jump down my throat and tell me I am a bad person, read on, please.

For example, today Chip tried to take the ball off our other dog, Bailey. First time I told him no, sternly, took it off him and gave it back to Bay. About an hour later, he tried it again. This time he was told no sternly by both me and my partner, and then got no attention for a couple of minutes. About half an hour later he tried it again (All of these times he has his own ball, but wants Baileys as well!!) and was tapped on the nose and shouted at for it. Literally minutes later he wanders back in with the same ball, looking sheepish before we had even said a word or moved. This prompted a smack on the side and a sending to his bed. Since then this evening, he hasn't done it again, and its been a couple of hours now. 

Yes, I love my dogs, and yes there are ways to train a dog that dont require physical contact. But I have a strong minded Staff pup, who doesn't listen - now, dont tell me its beacuse I have trained him wrong, we have had him less than 6 weeks and hes around 1 already. 

Long term this approach would not be one I choose to use, but for short term things such as learning that he cannot steal another dogs toy while they are playing with them, it works - especially when he knows he has done wrong and continues to carry on with the same behaviour.

EDIT - I would also like to make it clear this is not a common occurance, and I dont smack (its such a strong word!!) my dog(s) on a regular basis. They get a tap if they know they have done something wrong and continued to do it, to discourage it in the future.


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I confess that when my Dallie stole the roast chicken from off the side,( 6 guests for lunch including DD new bf),, while I was standing right there he did get a whack on his rump, he had no intention of obeying my command "drop" no matter how loud I shrieked ... My reprimand had absolutley no effect, he just stared at me licking his lips..Clearly he believes in Finders Keepers!!

But normally NO! A growl and a stare usually surfices. The same tone of voice and stare works for kids and dogs. Has been known to work on OH too


----------



## emmaluggs (Jan 16, 2011)

Do you honestly believe that Chip knew you smacked him because it wasn't his ball? I'm actually a bit flabagasted!


----------



## sas2506 (Feb 22, 2011)

yes, i believe he does. he was told repeatedly that it wasn't his, and this was demonstrated by the repeated removal of the ball itself - and by him watching me give it back to Bailey and replacing the one he took with his own ball. Its not even like the balls were of the same material or colour.

Also, I think its down to individuals as to how they choose to train their dogs - I was not hitting him to hurt him, or cause him damage or pain, just to get a point across to him and instill some disipline. I dont realistically think that I could cause him any sort of lasting pain without feeling forever guilty, but its to get a point across - shouting does nothing for him but excite him more and make him more likely to play up, same with using a deeper voice. 

I dont like the word smack as its rather harsh for the action that some people use it to portray. Its like the argument for smacking children as well - I dont believe its a good thing, but sometimes its necessary. No, I am not proud that I hit my dog, but I deemed it a necessary measure and was not meant to cause pain or suffering, and with a thread such as this with everyone saying no, I felt that I should stand up and admit that I am not perfect. I reckon that most people have done something more than the lightest of taps at some point in the traning of their dogs, even if they wont admit it out loud. 

There is also the rewarding of good behaviour to consider. We should all reward good behaviour but what about the bad? If we do not acknowledge that it is bad behaviour and separate it from the normal or average behaviour, how is he to know that it is a "bad" behaviour? Yes, sometimes people can overstep the line, but I know my dog, and how he responds to things.


----------



## emmaluggs (Jan 16, 2011)

Because the dog isn't bad he just fancied playing with another a ball!


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Why is lifting your hand seen as the answer to so much for some people


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

From a personal pov, it is not acceptable to do to a child, dog, horse whatever, what would be considered illegal assault if done to another adult.

From a scientific and analytical point of view, aversives that are strongly associated with the teacher (ie. they are obviously delivering them) are likely to be the least effective in the long term from a learning aspect.

If the aversive you use must be delivered with a 'stern', loud, raised etc. voice than it is unlikely to be anything other than intimidation, fright, shock effect on the student that is causing them to stop what they are doing.
Due to the difficulty with delivering and using aversives it probably does nothing other than interrupt behaviour which in the long term is detrimental to teaching.

If you have to threaten with a raised hand, intimidating body language, or a tool than it is in this context that this appears to work - dogs are amazing discriminators.

The use of aversives is a mine field and we believe we are better at using them then we actually are.

If you ahve to repeat the use of aversives - it ain't working, try something else like thorough management and teaching the dog the behaviour you want to see, rather than the potentially millions of behaviours you don't want.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

garryd said:


> I... do give the boys a jab in the neck if i see them eating my favourite bay-tree
> Which makes little or no difference, as being bull terriers they got skin like a rhino


hey, Garry!  i'd suggest that a decorative fence or just a good simple trunk-wrap or another protective device 
would be much more effective, they will just chew the tree when U aren't paying attention, and the damage
once done, is not erasable.  4 posts 1/3 out from the trunk to the drip-line, with sturdy wove-wire 
around them, should do the job for under $20, easy.

the problem with poking the dogs is not _*pain,*_ so much as what they learn: to *expect* that hands 
are bad news coming at them - they will duck, snap at people, flinch, be difficult at the vet's, etc.

dogs also have quite delicate skin - it does not callous, nor tan - it is as tender as a baby's bum. 
and it's the *nervous system* that decides how tolerant they are of pain, and how they cope... 
not their skin, but their nerves for sensing pain & pressure, their sensitivity to sound, startle, etc.


garryd said:


> I saw a guy in a park once crack his little dog with its lead
> was i right for giving him a good telling off !??


_CLICK... Yes! :thumbup: good on ya! _


----------



## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

No I dont and didn't smack my dog and never will my nephew smacks his dogs even though they didn't do anything I think he should be smacked when doing nothing to see how much he feels about it


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lizd4688 said:


> you can tell when they do something wrong. they have guilt written all over their faces.


those famous [or infamous :lol: ] guilty looks actually mean a dog who has been taught that _U plus X = trouble_ -
they are trying to defuse the expected display of anger, or the anticipated punishment.

dogs who learn that _X means angry human_ try very hard to soften that expected anger - 
and the body language is all the signals they would make to another dog, to signal no threat, appease, 
solicit attention, defer, and so on.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

garryd said:


> but [Cesar] millan on the tv show swears by jabbing to the back of the neck as a consequence!??
> Even in his book he is [quick] to point out that when young, that's the first thing [their] mother would do !


Q - have U actually _*seen*_ any dog-mom BITE A PUP's NECK? 
i have seen bitches air-snap, growl, give a hard stare, snap at a muzzle, yes - but NEVER have i seen 
any dam in my whole life, pinch a pup's neck with her teeth to punish her or him; never.

Cesar has a 9th-grade education from a rural Mexico school - born in 1969, i think he was out of a country school 
by 1984; what sort of schooling would a rural school give, at that time, in that place? 
he did not go to a vocational school that offered animal science - he came to the USA as an illegal teen, 
and worked odd jobs, one of which was sweeping out a groomer's shop run by 2 women. THEY discovered that 
he was stronger than they were, and could _*force*_ struggling dogs to *submit* to grooming - 
but that is not 'training', it is crisis management only; the next time the dog comes in, chances are excellent 
they will struggle even harder.  also, for some strange reason, _*Cesar does not mind being bitten - *_ 
bear that in mind when U imitate him, cuz most of us normal folks don't want to be bitten. :lol:

teaching a dog to cheerfully co-operate is so much easier, & so much more effective 
than simply pushing, pulling, shoving, forcing - that is stressful -- the other is safer, 
more humane, and long-lasting.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lizd4688 said:


> i have seen the mum give her pup a jab to behave... it does the trick...


really? :huh: *U've seen this, with Ur own eyes?* do us a favor, and get it on video. [I want to see it too.]

Q: when mom-dog 'jabs' her pup - 
does she use her index finger to jab, or pinch the pup's ear with her thumb & forefinger? :lol:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

colacooler said:


> Dogs need to know whos leader of the pack, never hurts to reaffirm the leader.


:lol: good one...  tell another whopper!


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2011)

Do I smack my dogs??
Simple answer: NEVER


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

colacooler said:


> Won't be long before people start saying being firm with your dog (such as shouting NO)
> is considered emotional abuse by some softly softly liberal do gooder.


:001_tt2: gee... how did i train dogs without shouting, *"No!"*, or hitting or jabbing? 
i have missed so much - can U teach me?...


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

bullbreeds said:


> I too have seen Cesar Milan use this... I hardly think it constitutes abuse!
> It wouldnt be [broadcast] if that were the case.


um - many, many vets have a different opinion, as does the American Humane Assoc. 
in Sept 2006, the AHA spoke for many dog-professionals when they condemned _the Dog Whisperer_ 
as inhumane, old-fashioned, needlessly harsh, confrontational, and misleading to the watching general-public. 
:huh: the original press-release can be found, cached, on the Web.

the Dawg-Wrassler still does not have the AHA seal of approval - they are the organization which 
oversees any performing venue for humane standards vis-a-vis kids or animals on the stage: 
plays, films, commercials, live performances, they monitor & rate them all.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

garryd said:


> they [reckon he's one] of the greatest dog [trainers,] ever!??


who does? :huh: the AVMA, AVSAB, & AHA in the United States think he has been a terrible backward influence. 
Dr Nick Dodman is the head of the behavioral-dept of a vet-college in a major university - 
he said point-blank that, _"Cesar Millan has set dog-training back 20 years."_

pet-owners think he's 'great'  - dog-professionals do not. 
see the UK-website, Welfare in Dog-Training, for more info - Google will bring it up. 


garryd said:


> Yeah, i do watch his show, but [his] book is [awesome]


which book? i read _Cesar's Way_ - i have read large portions of the most-recent, _Cesar's Rules_, 
but i refuse to buy a copy; i'll wait till the library gets it, and then i'll suggest they purchase a better book - 
by an author with credentials that include behavior-science. :thumbup1: 
i read about two-thirds of it, all of the 'guest trainers' - Ian Dunbar, Bailey, the Hollywood trainer, & so on.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

garryd said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> ...Cesar Milan and his TV show The Dog Whisperer, [doesn't] know what [he's] talking about...
> even though he is world renowned as *the [world's] best dog trainer*!


he may be very well-known, but 'best' is quite a different thing - and Cesar himself repeatedly says, 
_"I am not a dog-trainer..."_ - and i for one, am happy to agree with him. 

Cesar has an agent, handlers to advise him, lawyers on retainer, the National Geographic media machine 
to promote him, full page ads in magazines, a half-dozen websites, a Tv-program, books, DVDs, 
a multimillion dollar income from branded merchandise including food... 
he can be described as famous, infamous, heavily subsidized, media saturation, or any number of other 
terms than 'best' - personally, i can name dozens of trainers off the top of my head who are not as famous, 
but IMO they are *better trainers* than he.

here in no particular order are a few - 
Tamar Geller 
Jean Donaldson 
Ian Dunbar
Karen Pryor 
Diane Garrod 
Trisha McConnell 
Ken McCort 
Emily Larlham AKA 'kikopup' on YouTube 
Pat Miller 
Eric Goebelbecker 
Marilyn Lazarus


----------



## billie jo (Feb 17, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> really? :huh: *U've seen this, with Ur own eyes?* do us a favor, and get it on video. [I want to see it too.]
> 
> Q: when mom-dog 'jabs' her pup -
> does she use her index finger to jab, or pinch the pup's ear with her thumb & forefinger? :lol:


Nothing to do with the thread really - but the dog in the photo - can I have my dog back please! Blimey - absolute image of one of mine!

Going back to the thread tho - whilst I do not believe in hitting a dog - you do have to assert yourself as pack leader in other ways, or you'll have a whole bunch of problems on your hands - as well as a confused dog.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Lilac12 said:


> ...if a dog needs discipline you should give it some physical contact.
> I... understand... people are afraid to hurt their dogs, but imagine if [s/he] chewed up your favourite pair
> of shoes or soiled your bed covers, you would want to give some discipline. :thumbup:


errmmm... _want to give some discipline'_ or rather, _*"want to vent some spleen!" :incazzato:* ??_

i would bet that it's venting spleen that is the attractive part - we are angry, & shouting & smacking release that. 
:huh: but that is not *teaching* a better or preferred behavior, or *preventing* the behavior 
by _*proper management*_ - put shoes away, close the bedroom door, hang up the jacket, 
put gloves in pockets, *GIVE the dog proper chew-toys to keep their teeth busy... *


----------



## Jonesey (Dec 30, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> errmmm... _want to give some discipline'_ or rather, _*"want to vent some spleen!" :incazzato:* ??_
> 
> i would bet that it's venting spleen that is the attractive part - we are angry, & shouting & smacking release that.
> :huh: but that is not *teaching* a better or preferred behavior, or *preventing* the behavior
> ...


I couldn't agree more. Really the only time I've wanted to smack anyone, the dog, the children, people on the street etc. is when they've pissed me off. I can't fathom hitting anyone when I'm not angry. Perhaps that's a conditioned response (my parents spanked - Hard) or perhaps it's in all of us, I don't know.

Really if you leave a toddler in front of the tv with a bowl of smarties while you go to the bathroom for a pee what do you think they're going to do? Wait patiently for you to come back? And the smartest grown up dog is like a three year old.

My son went to put on his high top runners before school this morning (he's refused to wear boots this winter) and Biscuit had chewed a piece off of one. He was really sad about the shoes, but he didn't suggest we go smack her for doing it. He knew he'd left them out.


----------



## Stephen&Dogs (Dec 11, 2010)

AristoDogz said:


> Actually it is not bullying and I very much resent that statement from you!
> 
> You do not know my dogs and so you assume that they are terrified!
> 
> ...


 What do you think your dog feels when you bring out the water pistol? Do you think they are happy? Happy that you brought it out sounds like they are more scared of it.


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> errmmm... _want to give some discipline'_ or rather, _*"want to vent some spleen!" :incazzato:* ??_
> 
> i would bet that it's venting spleen that is the attractive part - we are angry, & shouting & smacking release that.
> :huh: but that is not *teaching* a better or preferred behavior, or *preventing* the behavior
> ...


Good post, when ever someone strikes (or however you wish to dress it up) something or someone it's more about their gratification than gaining anything positive from the act


----------



## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm gonna be honest. I have, once, over a year ago. NOt at all proud of it. And because I was fuming (and it was my fault anyway).

I obviously have every intention to never do it again, but we are people (at least I am) and I can't with 100% certainty say it will never ever happen. I can say that I will try as much as I can to never do it again!

But as far as I am concerned, a one of event that is not habit or the intentional chosen method of training will not damage or destroy a dog. Bella is the world's most confident happy dog. Is perfect with adults, kids, the vet... and despite being under 7kg she will happily play with boxers, labradors, samoyeds at the dog park because she is _that_ secure. I take no credit for her feeling safe and secure. I only rescued her at 4 months from terrible circumstances...by which time I am sure a huge amount of damage had already been done. I can only take credit for Bella knowing she has a safe home now, she has endless love, consistency, lots of great walks, play time, lots of comfy places to sleep, good food, and health care. The fact that I smacked her once - aaages ago - I believe has not made _any _difference in the dog Bella is today.

I am not advicating smacking by _any_ means, but I also cannot support those that say that if u have ever smacked your dog, even as a one-off, you have caused damage.


----------



## Lilac12 (Feb 22, 2011)

Leah84 said:


> is it just me or does this post absolutely STINK of troll?? seems someone has registered in order to pull up an old thread and cause a stir....how sad


Ok... But Jeesus I was just stating my point.
Why are all you so worried about the whole thing. I only give him a light tap on the nose if he has done something really naughty and before anyone else calls me a troll I must just report it!!!:arf:

How sad!!! Lol


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I am frankly horrified and disgusted by some of the attitudes on this thread - I will do my best to remain polite and informative, but I am undeniably angered by some comments.



> I don't know what anyone else is on about but if a dog needs discipline you should give it some physical contact.
> I can understand why people are afraid to hurt their dogs but imagine if it chewed up your favourite pair of shoes or soiled your bed covers, you would want to give some discipline.


This attitude I find particularly repulsive - the suggestion here is not simply that smacking is necessary or even effective - but because owners get violent when they are angry. There are few worse reasons to assault a dog, or anyone else for that matter. Should I come home and kick my cat because I had a bad day at the office? This isn't about training - its nothing more than "venting your spleen" as Terry (LFL) so accurately puts it.

Sas2506:



> I do, when hes done something that he knows he should not do


Does your dog have the same brain powers as an adult human? Does he actually speak English? Understand all human body language? Understand the complexities of human ideals, opinions, the concept of right and wrong?
No - because he is a DOG!



> For example, today Chip tried to take the ball off our other dog, Bailey. First time I told him no, sternly, took it off him and gave it back to Bay. About an hour later, he tried it again. This time he was told no sternly by both me and my partner, and then got no attention for a couple of minutes. About half an hour later he tried it again (All of these times he has his own ball, but wants Baileys as well!!) and was tapped on the nose and shouted at for it. Literally minutes later he wanders back in with the same ball, looking sheepish before we had even said a word or moved. This prompted a smack on the side and a sending to his bed.


1) I have no idea why a dog playing with a ball should warrent any form of punishment. He's a dog - its a ball, and in dog-law, possession is 10 10ths of the law. I see no reason for owner involvement here at all.

2) As the behaviour was repeated it is clear that trying to change his behaviour using punishment failed. So, like many people, you resorted to increasing the punishment. What if a smack doesn't work next time? Hit him with his lead instead? Beat him?

3) What could the dog have learned here? Not to take a ball from another dog - highly unlikely. What he may have learned is that approaching hands are bad and dangerous. That his owners are unpredictable and violent. That playing with balls is dangerous? Or perhaps that ball play is only dangerous if owners are present.

4) Before diving in with the punishment, for something you claim the dog "knows was wrong", I am curious - did you do any prior training to teach the dog "acceptable" ball play? Have your taught either the "drop" or "leave" command? Or did you simply push your own human concepts onto the dog and assault him because he should somehow magically know what you want and what you are saying?



> Its like the argument for smacking children as well - I dont believe its a good thing, but sometimes its necessary. No, I am not proud that I hit my dog, but I deemed it a necessary measure and was not meant to cause pain or suffering


The word "necessary" has come up twice here... why? Phsycial violence is NOT a necessary part of training. It is very possible, and certainly preferable, to train any animal - dog, human or other - without ever resporting to violence.
Some people use physical violence because they genuinely don't know any better. Some can't be bothered with the alternatives. Some just like doing it. But regardless of why people do it - it being "necessary" is simply not true.

And if smacking is not meant to cause pain or suffering, exactly what IS the point? Physical human contact should be (and usually is) a good thing - hell it is often used as a reward. What makes a smack a punisher rather than a reward or even a neutral occurence? Because it hurts. It causes pain or discomfort (depending on intensity), and IF it works, this is because the dog behaves out of fear of further punishment. Simple.



> There is also the rewarding of good behaviour to consider. We should all reward good behaviour but what about the bad? If we do not acknowledge that it is bad behaviour and separate it from the normal or average behaviour, how is he to know that it is a "bad" behaviour?


It's not quite that simple.

You not only reward good behaviour - you teach good behaviour. You need to show the dog how to behave, not simply punish him for getting it wrong.

As for the bad behaviour - for one thing, dogs don't do good or bad. They behave like dogs - no morals, no human concepts of right and wrong. A dog behaves as he does because he is a dog.

Of course, there are behaviours we do not want our dogs to perform - but punishment is not the only answer, not even the best answer. 
Management to prevent unwanted behaviour, teaching and rewarding good behaviours, specifically teaching alternatives behaviours which in themselves prevent the bad behaviour, using non-aversive interuptors, and of course removal of reward / negative punishment are all perfectly good techniques. There is simply no need to start smacking dogs around in the name of training.

This brings me to the common preconception that "rewarded behaviours are repeated, punished behaviours are not". Actually, rewarded behaviours are repeated, un-rewarded behaviours are not. If a behaviour is not rewarding to the dog in some way he will stop doing it - no need to punish at all, simply remove the reward.

Lastly, violence is risky business, for varous reasons.

1) By its nature it can pose a physical risk of injury. This is particularly true when - as normally occurs - the effects where off and the intensity of punishment is increased.

2) The use of aversives, particularly physical violence has a very high risk of behavioural fall-out. It can lead to aviodance behaviours, learned helplessness, urination, and of course - aggression.

3) Aversives, particularly physical ones, cause stress. Chronic (long term) stress not only poses a welfare issue, it reduces the animals learning ability and memory formation (making training harder), and over time can pose a heath threat as the body's stress ersponse system is only meant to be a short term thing.

4) Punishment may be effective only specifically, or over-generalised. For example, the dog smacked for "stealing" the ball may well learn simply to avoid balls because balls = pain. Or he may learn only to avoid stealing balls when his owners are present, but will continue to do so when they are not looking. Either way - not a very good outcome.

All in all, not only is smacking / violence completely unnecessary in training, it is also high-risk, often ineffective, often counter-productive, and potentially harmful to both dog and owner.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

As a matter of fact, yes I do! I also kick the [email protected]@k out of the kids when I can't hear the TV and force the wife into submission every friday night when she refuses my conjugal rights. I accept that this behaviour does not make me a very nice person but at least I always get what I want!


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Lilac - you have to admit it seems a bit odd... You turn up on the forum as a newbie, find a thread that had previously dried up almost a year and a half ago, and one of your first posts is to re-start the thread in order to justify, even encourage, hitting dogs? What did you expect people to think?

Your original post did nothing to suggest you


> only give him a light tap on the nose if he has done something really naughty


What you did imply was that it is perfectly acceptable - even recommended - to hit a dog because you are angry.

Now THAT is something I find sad.


----------



## lizzyboo (Apr 7, 2010)

i only need to say to radley 'what have you done' and he pulls his 'sorry mum' face at me..... sometimes i dont even open my mouth, like yesterday when he jumped up and took the socks out of the wash basket... as soon as he saw me looking he was all apologetic.......... i love my pogus and couldnt raise my hand to him ever!


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizzyboo said:


> i only need to say to radley 'what have you done' and he pulls his 'sorry mum' face at me..... sometimes i dont even open my mouth, like yesterday when he jumped up and took the socks out of the wash basket... as soon as he saw me looking he was all apologetic.......... i love my pogus and couldnt raise my hand to him ever!


Sounds as if you have a good level of communication going on there :thumbup:

No need for violence towards those we love.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lilac12 said:


> I don't know what anyone else is on about but if a dog needs discipline you should give it some physical contact.
> I can understand why people are afraid to hurt their dogs but imagine if it chewed up your favourite pair of shoes or soiled your bed covers, you would want to give some discipline. :thumbup:


If the dog chewed up your favourite shoes, it is your fault for leaving them where the dog can get them. If he soils your bedcovers, don't let him in the bedroom. After this "discipline" is he supposed to recognise the difference between stuff he can chew and soil and stuff he can't?


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nellybelly said:


> I'm gonna be honest. I have, once, over a year ago. NOt at all proud of it. And because I was fuming (and it was my fault anyway).
> 
> I obviously have every intention to never do it again, but we are people (at least I am) and I can't with 100% certainty say it will never ever happen. I can say that I will try as much as I can to never do it again!
> 
> ...


Agree! When Ferdie was only four months old and we hadn't had him long, he suddenly leapt on the sofa and bit my face, hard. Bearing in mind just how big a newfie is at that age, and being as he left my face bleeding, I did lash out and he did get a very hard smack on the nose. I have never smacked him since and yes, it was done in anger cos it bloody well hurt, and not only did he never bite me again, but he is the dopiest, friendliest dog on God's earth and hands coming toward him mean "someone is going to make a fuss of me and I shall shove my head under their hand to make it easier."


----------



## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

I will open this post with honesty, I have and do use aversion techniques on my dog and have hit him (however I do feel guilty after I do as I know as a more intelligent species (questionable) I could have done something different) but very rarely. I do not hit him because Im angry or frustrated, I just react. I also say ah or hey and also tap him to get his attention away from something he may be about to do he shouldnt.

I know these techniques arent the most up to date methods, some on her would suggest they are prehistoric however I am trying to change over to PR. I do most things PR now and always have treats on me for this reason. These are things I have learnt from being on this forum and reading more about dog and their behaviour.

The reason I still use aversions (even if just occasionally) is because this is how I was taught to train/teach dogs by my parents and when they were doing it was the accepted technique. Those reacting most furiously to anyone who dare admit to touching their dogs in a negative way have probably fully converted to PR and good on you; it will just take others longer. What will not convince people to change is by berating them for admitting it; this will just make people more defensive of their ways and convince them further that what they are doing is right. Informing and encouraging people of better more efficient practises may however help. The other thing to consider is that it was trainers of old that used to teach these methods, the experts told people about aversions, now they are telling people not to, it confuses people and will take time for people to realise that actually the same if not better results can be achieved without using aversions.

Just think once apon a time doctors told people it was good to smoke, it has taken a long time for people to realise this isnt the case. Also if you tell a smoker outright that they shouldnt smoke it will kill them etc most of the time they will just get defensive and it will reinforce their love of smoking. Sorry for the tedious analogy. Another analogy being children, people now that children respond better to PR, time out etc but it takes people time to unlearn what they have been doing for so long.

What I am trying to say is it was dog trainers who taught people about aversions now it is the same people who are preaching PR, most people will come round to it but it takes time. It takes a lot more time for a human to unlearn a learned behaviour than a dog!


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Staffx - thanks for a great post.

I have no problem with people admitting to smacking their dogs in the past, as Newfiesmum and Nellybelly have. I'm the same - I did smack my first dog on occassion - a combination of being told by "experienced" adult dog owners that this was the done thing, and anger.

But like many people on here - I learned better. I count myself lucky no harm was done and I still feel guilty about it. For many years now I have been totally against the use of physical corrections, and indeed any aversives. 

I also appreciate that changing a lifetime of habits is not always easy - especially if you react on impulse, the same way you always have.

I can applaud you on being prepared to admit to using aversives, more so on saying you are switching to PR. You have learned something - you have researched, updated your methods, and are making an effort. To me, that is what matters.

Defending and recommending violence however is something I can not condone.


----------



## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

I had 2 dogs ,from puppies-sadly 1 of them died 3 weeks ago.


The 1st time we left them alone-for about half an hour-they had ripped part of the new carpet, grabbed a plant from its pot ,leaving a big mess of soil etc and were sitting waiting for us to come back-1 of them had the plant sideways on in his mouth like a bone.

We didnt smack them-would that have taught them that what they had done was wrong?.No,what they would have learnt is - these human things who we live with can raise their hand to hurt us and we dont know why-perhaps they are just grumpy!

Would they think-we wont do that again because WE NOW UNDERSTAND its wrong?Shouldnt think so-they are DOGS.

Giving a dog a smack makes some people feel better because they think-"I showed him who is boss-Im the leader of the pack,not him" 

If your dog rips up your new,very expensive pair of boots,handbag or anything else
is a smack going to teach him that those things were valuable -or just that his owner was so stupid that he/she couldnt put them somewhere out of his reach?

And as for Cesar Milan being venerated as Gods gift to the world of dog training-have you seen the videos of him in action?-some of what Ive seen isnt training ,its abuse
.Many of the dogs who are featured are deliberately wound up before the show ,9 watch the video showing this)so that they will exhibit the problems that Cesar is going to "miraculously" cure.

He offers a "quick fix",which many owners readily seize as they cant be bothered to put in the time to use positive methods.

The change in the dogs behaviour is seen as a tribute to Cesars expertise-often after the dog has been taken off camera with Cesar,so he can work his "magic"-
Then off go the owners,(electronic collar and its remote control in their hand) closely followed by their "transformed "dog ,who can have a quick"zap" in future ,to keep him "transformed".
How gullible can some people be..Perhaps its the pearly white teeth and the smarmy way he talks!

Didnt intend mentioning my favourite dog trainer-NOT,only did it because other have mentioned him and his methods.
Ill finish now as talking about him makes me feel like I need a lie down in a dark room!!!!!!!
from Maureen-not a trainer ,just someone who would rather not abuse an animal to make it behave


----------



## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

Colette said:


> Defending and recommending violence however is something I can not condone.


I hope you don't think I am defending (although maybe inadvertently I may be doing this) or certainly not recommending violence/hitting/smacking. I was just trying to put the point across that it takes people time to change and people should be encourage whenever possible and not struck down for doing something that in the past is right.

I always think people are more likely to change when good reasoned arguments are given and when people aren't backed into a corner.

If that comment wasn't aimed at me please disregard this post!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lulus mum said:


> I had 2 dogs ,from puppies-sadly 1 of them died 3 weeks ago.
> 
> The 1st time we left them alone-for about half an hour-they had ripped part of the new carpet, grabbed a plant from its pot ,leaving a big mess of soil etc and were sitting waiting for us to come back-1 of them had the plant sideways on in his mouth like a bone.
> 
> ...


Watching him makes me want to throw something at the tv screen 

When I was living in the bungalow, the wardrobe door got broken and wouldn't close properly. I came home to find my £150 only pair of best shoes in shreds. Did I rant at Ferdie, did I wave them in his face and clout him. No, I thought, I am a silly cow for not closing the bedroom door!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> When I was living in the bungalow, the wardrobe door got broken and wouldn't close properly. I came home to find
> my £150 only pair of best shoes in shreds. Did I rant at Ferdie, did I wave them in his face and clout him.
> No, I thought, I am a silly cow for not closing the bedroom door!


 gosh, don't ya just hate that?  few things R worse than feeling like a silly cow.

of course, U could always sell Ferdie & buy new shoes?...  just a thought.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> gosh, don't ya just hate that?  few things R worse than feeling like a silly cow.
> 
> of course, U could always sell Ferdie & buy new shoes?...  just a thought.


Well, since high heels are absolutely useless for walking the dog, I don't think I would need them any more! Sell Ferdie indeed! Rather go around in my bare feet.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ...since high heels are absolutely useless for walking the dog, I don't think I would need them any more!
> Sell Ferdie indeed! Rather go around in my bare feet.


i'll be looking for a barefoot woman with a big, shy doofus...  i'm the tall woman with the broad-brimmed hat.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Good post, when ever someone strikes (or however you wish to dress it up) something or someone,
> it's more about their gratification than gaining anything positive from the act


thank U very kindly for the appreciation  and yes, sadly, when folks yell, hit, etc, they are usually getting 
something from it - relief from stress, attention, a sense of control [even if it's false], or something similar.


----------



## sas2506 (Feb 22, 2011)

After posting in here a couple of days back, I have really thought about how I act around my dog. With reflection I can see that sometimes things get out of control and that my dog may not fully understand, I have decided to change some of the behaviours we show towards our dog. This does not mean that I will never hit my dog again, because I cannot promise that as it depends on situation (ie, if my dog was to fight with another dog, I would separate them) but I will have to think long and hard about the situation before I react.


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Staffx said:


> I will open this post with honesty, I have and do use aversion techniques on my dog and have hit him (however I do feel guilty after I do as I know as a more intelligent species (questionable) I could have done something different) but very rarely. I do not hit him because Im angry or frustrated, I just react. I also say ah or hey and also tap him to get his attention away from something he may be about to do he shouldnt.
> 
> I know these techniques arent the most up to date methods, some on her would suggest they are prehistoric however I am trying to change over to PR. I do most things PR now and always have treats on me for this reason. These are things I have learnt from being on this forum and reading more about dog and their behaviour.
> 
> ...


First off can I say great post and wonderful sentiment behind it. It takes time to cross over and move away from aversive training techniques. It also takes time to re-train oneself away from techniques, ideas, attitudes that one has been brought up with.

Second of all can I recommend a couple of books to help you to make the change: Pat Millers classic The power of Positive Dog Training and Gail Fisher's The Thinking Dog, crossover to clicker training.

It is not to sound preachy but most of us long timers started with traditional methods and as they say, once you cross over you never cross back.

Positive based teaching is not new or magic - but when implemented correctly and with understanding of the fundementals it is the most effective and efficient way to change behaviour and teach desirable alternatives to unwanted behaviours.

Best of luck on your journey - your dogs will thank you


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

,


> just someone who would rather not abuse an animal to make it behave


what a brilliant phrase, maureen :thumbup:


----------



## AristoDogz (Feb 18, 2011)

Stephen&Dogs said:


> What do you think your dog feels when you bring out the water pistol? Do you think they are happy? Happy that you brought it out sounds like they are more scared of it.


When the water pistol comes out they think it is time to play...as I wrote in my last...we have fun with water from hoses and water pistols in the garden in summer time..they love to try and catch the water in their mouths, like many dogs do (theyre Spaniels and typical of Spaniels love getting wet & mucky)....I haven't said that they run away in fear..because they don't!....what they do is stop the barking...it breaks the concentrated excitement from what they were originally barking at (which quite obviously will stop the barking) ...and they think it's play time..It is water that comes out of the gun..not bullets!!!!
Anybody would think I run around the garden terrorising them with a machine gun!!
Perhaps if I had said I beat the dogs into submission to stop them barking I would have caused less scandal?
I growl and bear my teeth at the dogs if they are doing something wrong..that's agressive isn't it..that causes fear?...that's what dogs understand!
Jeeez it's amazing the assumptions that are made on here, when so little of the facts are known..seems there are quite a lot of people on here that know nothing about quite a lot!
I do take it quite to heart when it is suggested to me that I frighten my dogs and use bully tactics on them...anyone that knows me and my dogs, know that they are the most loved and cherished dogs ever..they are my children, they are my life and I would quite happily die protecting these girls....so, If my tone comes over as somewhat aggressive from this thread, I am sure you can understand why, if you are indeed a "dog lover" yourself?


----------



## Lilac12 (Feb 22, 2011)

I am very sorry if i seemed sad at the start. I myself don't hit my dog, i would never dream of doing it. If my dog is naughty and i catch him doing something, i use cesar's 3 fingered trick to tell him that the thing he is doing is bad.:001_cool:


----------



## Lilac12 (Feb 22, 2011)

Zaros said:


> As a matter of fact, yes I do! I also kick the [email protected]@k out of the kids when I can't hear the TV and force the wife into submission every friday night when she refuses my conjugal rights. I accept that this behaviour does not make me a very nice person but at least I always get what I want!


Oh my god!!! Poor thing. I feel sorry for your dog!


----------



## Lilac12 (Feb 22, 2011)

Le Loup said:


> Must admit i give Mack a slap across his backside when he does something really naughty. I know he doesn't feel it coz 5 mins later he'll do the naughty thing again *meh face* plus he shows you when he's hurt lol, he's a right wuss.
> 
> My other dog Rosie never really does many naughty things but if she does usually just the fact she's been caught is bad enough to her lol. When she was a pup and she did something (like stealing the chicken off the work top :O ) I'd tap her nose. It doesn't hurt but the shock of you actually "hitting" them is enough for them to realise it was a bad thing. like tapping a kid on the hand when they do something naughty lol.


How could you do that to a dog. People also don't normally tap their children on their hand if they have been naughty!!!:


----------



## Lilac12 (Feb 22, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I once beat a large boxer with a metal end of a lead. It had run out from someone's garden whilst I was walking my dog and leapt straight for me in attack mode.What if I'd been a small child?)
> Having said that I tend to just say AH AH! to interrupt Adam then try to replace the bad behaviour with good. Although one of my cats I smack quite often coz he really enjoys it, freaky little pervert!![/QUOTE/)
> 
> How do you know the dog was in attack mode, i can imagine after you hitting it with the metal end of a lead it would be scared for life!!!
> Poor thing... Meanie


----------



## Lilac12 (Feb 22, 2011)

Eroswoof said:


> Bumby ate a pair of Gucci boots when I first had him :lol: if a human had chosen to destroy them I'd have been gutted...but as you say, I'd left them out (and he did look guilty)
> 
> Em
> xx


I myself don't leave my shoes out i was just using an example in my reply


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Staffx:

No, I wasn't meaning you at all; there was nothing in your post which suggested that you were trying to defend or encourage smacking.

I pretty much agree with everything you said - including that people need to be taught why smacking is no longer acceptable, and what the preferred alternatives are, and given time to change,rather than simply criticising. Hence my my previous post went inot quite so much detail.

I will be honest, I was referring mainly to Lilac12; who re-ignited this thread with the outright statement that if a dog makes you angry you "*should*" (her exact word) use physical punishment. 
No justification for such a statement, no questions asked about the alternatives or why people disapprove, just a blanket "whallop him" attitude.

Of course, there have been others on this thread (all those years ago) who I also got riled by - but in this instance it was Lilac12 I was thinking of because she is the most recent, and indeed the one that dredged this thread back up.

Lilac - I'm not sure I understand you.

Your first post stated that you should use physical punishment in anger, and now you are jumping over people for saying they have done just that - even Zaros who was clearly taking the mick (I assume he doesn't actually abuse his wife and kids either).

You also claim you do not hit your dog, and "would never dream of doing it". Yet you stated in your second post that you smack him on the nose. And you do the CM pokey thing too - Personally, I'm not entirely sure how a sharp finger jab is better than an open-handed smack anyway.

I'm all for people learning and converting to positive reinforcement methods - but your change seems just a little too quick. If I have misunderstood the situation please feel free to explain, at the moment I'm just confused.


----------



## Staffx (Jan 12, 2011)

Colette said:


> Staffx:
> 
> No, I wasn't meaning you at all; there was nothing in your post which suggested that you were trying to defend or encourage smacking.
> 
> ...


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colette said:


> Staffx:
> 
> No, I wasn't meaning you at all; there was nothing in your post which suggested that you were trying to defend or encourage smacking.
> 
> ...


You are not alone! Is the sudden change perhaps because no one agreed with her, or has she dug up this very old thread just to wind everybody up. Seems to be a new game just lately.



Zaros said:


> As a matter of fact, yes I do! I also kick the [email protected]@k out of the kids when I can't hear the TV and force the wife into submission every friday night when she refuses my conjugal rights. I accept that this behaviour does not make me a very nice person but at least I always get what I want!


Zaros was definitely being sarcastic, and I do not understand why that was not obvious to anyone reading.


----------

