# advice on the heart/eye test for my King Charles



## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

Hi, i have two stunning King Charles girls who are my world and i love them to bits. I would like to breed from them both, they are still young and wont be ready for another year, i have no experience breeding dogs but i have shown and breed Persians for 10 years and always had the health checks done, although i have given up now, i know that breeding/showing dogs is a whole different ball game.

I picked them very carefully and they are stunning examples, one stunning Ruby and one Blehnim with the desirable spot on her head, they are KC registered with no endorsments etc..

The reason i am writeing this is that i would like some more information about the Heart and eye test that i want doing for both my girls before they are bred.

I have asked my vet but they was'nt really helpful, i don't think they have done it before, and i would like to go back with a bit more authortity.

What is involved in the test? Can your local vets do it? Is it a one off thing or is it done yearly? Do you or should you get a certificate that you can then register these health checks with the KC or prove that they have been done?

Any info on this would be much welcome.

Many thanks!!! Lola


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

Sorry - but do you mean Cavalier King Charles or King Charles Spaniels?

Whichever breed, your best bet is to look at the recommendations of the relevant breed clubs and the Kennel Club to see what should be done and how to go about it. Usually the breed clubs are stricter! If you got your girls from knowledgeable breeders, can they not help? 

Are you planning to show your girls?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

Are you a member of the breed club?
The tests are so much cheaper
Your vet can not do these tests but they can put you in touch with the right people.
Have your dogs won shows ect how can you say they are a nice example also you will need the mri scan done but they like the dogs be over 2 and half before they do it.

Heart testing has to be done every year 
Eye tests at 12 months
MRI Scans at 2.5


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

They are the Cavalier King Charles, your right i am in the process of joining the Cavalier club so i will probably get better advice from them, although thanks for the advice anyway.

No i have'nt shown my girls, strange question but you don't have to show to know you have dogs of a good breed standard. Good bloodlines, good parents and a good knowlage of the breed, help and guidence from the KC breed standard enable any good breeder/enthusiast to know if they have got a breed\show standard bitch or not,. other wise if you can't recognise a good'n from a bad'n in your breed you shouldn't be breeding!!

Any way thanks for the advice


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

jaradethan said:


> They are the Cavalier King Charles, your right i am in the process of joining the Cavalier club so i will probably get better advice from them, although thanks for the advice anyway.
> 
> No i have'nt shown my girls, strange question but you don't have to show to know you have dogs of a good breed standard. Good bloodlines, good parents and a good knowlage of the breed, help and guidence from the KC breed standard enable any good breeder/enthusiast to know if they have got a breed\show standard bitch or not,. other wise if you can't recognise a good'n from a bad'n in your breed you shouldn't be breeding!!
> 
> Any way thanks for the advice


Thought this might interest you
I dont show my cavs either

I will be there im taking one of my dogs

Health Clinic

Bagworth Community Centre
Station Road
Bagworth LE67 1BH
DIRECTIONS: Leave M1 at Junction 22. Take the A511 towards Coalville, at the second roundabout take the first exit, B585. At the next roundabout take the first exit and continue to a T Junction. Turn left towards Bagworth, continue through Bagworth for approx 1 mile, the venue is on the left. There will be a Club sign outside the venue.
Map

Saturday 26th September 2009
Commencing 10:00 am

FREE Heart Testing by Cardiologist: Simon Swift

Eye Testing: Mr P McPherson
(Last drops for eyes at 3 pm)
Don't forget your KC Registration Certificate if you require KC/BVA certificate

Dog Photographer Mr John Jackson
(Our Dogs)
(Available to take your Year Book photos - very reasonable prices)

Microchipping by Annette Jones
(£10 per dog)

Light Refreshments will be available
RAFFLE - M & S Voucher - donated by Jeanne Boyd

ALL Cavaliers Welcome

Full details from Sylvia Lymer
Tel 01530 831929 or Mobile 07704 725460


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks for that, is this done every year or is it a one off special?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

jaradethan said:


> Thanks for that, is this done every year or is it a one off special?


They do a few a year in different locations.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

jaradethan said:


> They are the Cavalier King Charles, your right i am in the process of joining the Cavalier club so i will probably get better advice from them, although thanks for the advice anyway.
> 
> No i have'nt shown my girls, strange question but you don't have to show to know you have dogs of a good breed standard. Good bloodlines, good parents and a good knowlage of the breed, help and guidence from the KC breed standard enable any good breeder/enthusiast to know if they have got a breed\show standard bitch or not,. other wise if you can't recognise a good'n from a bad'n in your breed you shouldn't be breeding!!
> 
> Any way thanks for the advice


But how does she contribute to the breed? If she's shown, she would have showing titles and would produce good show dogs, if she does agility, she would have agility titles and would produce good agility dogs. Why are you breeding? IMO, all stud dogs and brood bitches should have either a showing title or a sport title (such as agility, flyball, field trial etc).


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> But how does she contribute to the breed? If she's shown, she would have showing titles and would produce good show dogs, if she does agility, she would have agility titles and would produce good agility dogs. Why are you breeding? IMO, all stud dogs and brood bitches should have either a showing title or a sport title (such as agility, flyball, field trial etc).


what showing titles????. you dont necessarrily have to own a champ to have a good specimen of a particular breed.Not all champs produce good offspring i've known some mediocre stock produce outstanding stock , not just in my breed..


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dexter said:


> what showing titles????. you dont necessarrily have to own a champ to have a good specimen of a particular breed.Not all champs produce good offspring i've known some mediocre stock produce outstanding stock , not just in my breed..


Because then you are contributing something to the breed. It's like using dogs that are not health tested, why use dogs that do not have anything to stand for? They are nothing special, just another dog. If it's won shows, then it is something special and should be used for breeding.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

"She" has a name thank you very much!!!!!:cursing:

I am asking a question about health checks, im not asking for you to give an opinion on the reasons why i want to breed, and i don't have to justify myself to you, its never enough for some people that some newbie breeders have a genuine interest and love for a breed and want to do it the right way, .
Its people like you that cause people to "back yard breed" as all you do is pull people down that are trying to do it the right way rather than offering a helping hand and constructive advice, every one even top cruft show winners started somewhere.

I know some people on these forums are just there to pick a fight and to pull people down, NOT INTERESTED!!!!!

And lets be realistic, If every breeder just bred to show and to produce agility dogs how would people be able to enjoy a breed just as a pet, not every one buys a dog to show or are able to do agility they just want a pet and if good breeders are able to produce healthy breed standard pups through the right channels then why not!!!!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

jaradethan said:


> "She" has a name thank you very much!!!!!:cursing:
> 
> I am asking a question about health checks, im not asking for you to give an opinion on the reasons why i want to breed, and i don't have to justify myself to you, its never enough for some people that some newbie breeders have a genuine interest and love for a breed and want to do it the right way.
> Its people like you that cause people to "back yard breed" as all you do is pull people down that are trying to do it the right way rather than offering a helping hand and constructive advice, every one even top cruft show winners started somewhere.
> ...


you don't even know me so don't start picking a fight with me. SHE was referring to your dog, actually. But you should have a real reason to breed, otherwise you are just contributing to the huge number of dogs in rescue centres. If the dog was a real example of the breed (winning titles), then it may be a reason to breed, but just breeding because you want to, is an awful reason to breed.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

jaradethan said:


> "She" has a name thank you very much!!!!!:cursing:
> 
> I am asking a question about health checks, im not asking for you to give an opinion on the reasons why i want to breed, and i don't have to justify myself to you, its never enough for some people that some newbie breeders have a genuine interest and love for a breed and want to do it the right way.
> Its people like you that cause people to "back yard breed" as all you do is pull people down that are trying to do it the right way rather than offering a helping hand and constructive advice, every one even top cruft show winners started somewhere.
> ...


I think its fantastic that you are thinking of breeding and trying do things the right way as there are so many bad cavs around.

Your dogs do not have be in the ring to be a nice breed standard 2 pups from my last litter have gone to show homes

I will try my best help you please dont be put off asking any questions you need to


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> you don't even know me so don't start picking a fight with me. SHE was referring to your dog, actually. But you should have a real reason to breed, otherwise you are just contributing to the huge number of dogs in rescue centres. If the dog was a real example of the breed (winning titles), then it may be a reason to breed, but just breeding because you want to, is an awful reason to breed.


the lady was asking about health tests . why prejudge her?

you DO NOT have to win titles to produce great offspring .


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> I think its fantastic that you are thinking of breeding and trying do things the right way as there are so many bad cavs around.


why is it fantastic that she wants to breed cavs, which are one of the most popular breeds of dogs around? they are hardly rare, have nothing to show themselves for, and there are plenty of dogs in rescues.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dexter said:


> why prejudge her?


because you shouldn't just breed, because you want to, you should breed for a very good reason. why are you encouraging her to breed?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Because then you are contributing something to the breed. It's like using dogs that are not health tested, why use dogs that do not have anything to stand for? They are nothing special, just another dog. If it's won shows, then it is something special and should be used for breeding.[/QUOTE
> 
> sorry?? not sure what you're on about. nothing to stand for??????, nothing special?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> you don't even know me so don't start picking a fight with me. SHE was referring to your dog, actually. But you should have a real reason to breed, otherwise you are just contributing to the huge number of dogs in rescue centres. If the dog was a real example of the breed (winning titles), then it may be a reason to breed, but just breeding because you want to, is an awful reason to breed.


Im sorry but i disagree

Health and temprement and quality come first with me not how many shows they have won.

I have owned cavs for years i know a nice breed standard when i see one and if my dogs are poor quality because i dont show how come i have a waiting list :001_tt2:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> because you shouldn't just breed, because you want to, you should breed for a very good reason. why are you encouraging her to breed?


am i??? who says so?? the lady was asking sensible questions about breeding and health tests and 
is entitled to constructive answers IMO.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> why is it fantastic that she wants to breed cavs, which are one of the most popular breeds of dogs around? they are hardly rare, have nothing to show themselves for, and there are plenty of dogs in rescues.


year and how many off them are churned about by PF and BYB

I think as long the dogs are breed standard and have clear health tests i dont see the problem

why you been so negative?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> Im sorry but i disagree
> 
> Health and temprement and quality come first with me not how many shows they have won.
> 
> I have owned cavs for years i know a nice breed standard when i see one and if my dogs are poor quality because i dont show how come i have a waiting list :001_tt2:


why are you breeding when there are thousands of dogs in rescue centres? even if it's good quality, it's still just a dog. the dogs need to prove themselves either in the show ring or the working environment (agility etc), otherwise it's just a dog.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> year and how many off them are churned about by PF and BYB
> 
> I think as long the dogs are breed standard and have clear health tests i dont see the problem
> 
> why you been so negative?


because you should only breed from exceptional dogs, ie ones that have done well in the showring or working environment. show dogs make good pets, why breed just for pets, you should breed for a better purpose?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

*All* owners think their dog is wonderful and a fantastic specimen, even those from rescue or are mongrels. Showing or working competitions or trials or even races do tend to weed out the wheat from the chaff.
Everyone knows or speaks about this fantastic dog that has come from mediocre stock, but are then surprised when that dog doesn't breed on. I wonder why? something to do with its mediocre parents perhaps?

I agree that in these days of horrendous numbers of dogs being put down, rehomed and passed from pillar to post due to "poor ownership" skills in the main, then you need a very, very good reason to breed any dog.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> because you should only breed from exceptional dogs, ie ones that have done well in the showring or working environment. show dogs make good pets, why breed just for pets, you should breed for a better purpose?


and what purpose is that???


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> why are you breeding when there are thousands of dogs in rescue centres? even if it's good quality, it's still just a dog. the dogs need to prove themselves either in the show ring or the working environment (agility etc), otherwise it's just a dog.


Im not going explain my reasons to breeding to youut:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

jaradethan said:


> .
> 
> The reason i am writeing this is that i would like some more information about the Heart and eye test that i want doing for both my girls before they are bred.
> 
> ...


this was the OPs original question!!!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> *All* owners think their dog is wonderful and a fantastic specimen, even those from rescue or are mongrels. Showing or working competitions or trials or even races do tend to weed out the wheat from the chaff.
> Everyone knows or speaks about this fantastic dog that has come from mediocre stock, but are then surprised when that dog doesn't breed on. I wonder why? something to do with its mediocre parents perhaps?
> 
> I agree that in these days of horrendous numbers of dogs being put down, rehomed and passed from pillar to post due to "poor ownership" skills in the main, then you need a very, very good reason to breed any dog.


Agree!!!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> Im not going explain my reasons to breeding to youut:


because you have something to hide and you don't want to say it on a forum.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dexter said:


> and what purpose is that???


showring and working environment. how many times have i said that in this thread?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Agree!!!


I think you are crazy ut:

Lots of people that show dont even bother health test and i know that for a fact!!!
So i bet thats ok just because her dog got placedut:


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> showring and working environment. how many times have i said that in this thread?


and what do you know about showing ??? and why only breed for a better purpose? i asked what you meant by that .


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> I think you are crazy ut:
> 
> Lots of people that show dont even bother health test and i know that for a fact!!!
> So i bet thats ok just because her dog got placedut:


that's wrong, all breeding dogs should be health tested AND shown/worked.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> because you have something to hide and you don't want to say it on a forum.


year ok 
im sorry but i think you are just trying start a argument and yes i will help and advice the lady that made this thread:001_tt2:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dexter said:


> and what do you know about showing ??? and why only breed for a better purpose? i asked what you meant by that .


because there are too many dogs out there without a home to not breed for a better purpose. why do you think it's ok to breed for a lesser purpose?

my dog was never good at showing, but his sire is a famous show dog. :001_tt2:


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> that's wrong, all breeding dogs should be health tested AND shown/worked.


my last litter only 2 went to show homes the rest went to be family pets so whats wrong with that.
health comes first with me and my dogs have all been looked at by breeders(that do show) before i think off a litter.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

Thanks very much for all the help, obviously someone has a problem and needs to get out more, but i am tought skinned, don't forget i have shown and bred sucessfuly my Persians for many years with many a champion under my belt and know that some people just can't accept that some people have a genuine love for a breed and want to produce good quality pets as well as show dogs.

And dont be fooled by "breeders that show" there are some really good breeders out there but just because they show is not going to guarentee good pups/kittens, i have seen cats reach champion who are a very poor example and obviously the judges have been paid off, in one of the shows i went to my cat came second to another persian with very weak eye colour and should never have got first place, and im sure some of this will go on at dog shows too.

Putting a champion to a Champion DOES NOT garentee show quality pups....


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> because there are too many dogs out there without a home to not breed for a better purpose. why do you think it's ok to breed for a lesser purpose?
> 
> my dog was never good at showing, but his sire is a famous show dog. :001_tt2:


You can put 2 top show dogs together and still produce poor quality pups

My stud i used last time is a show dog:001_tt2:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I was never a great proponent of the show ring or of competitions but I have changed my opinion recently.

When as I have already said there are a huge number of dogs being put down every day, many who would have make fantastic friendly pets, then the reason to breed "just for pets", doesn't make a lot of sense.

The "puppy" culture means that everyone wants a puppy, but every day we also have posts about people not coping at all and at their wits end or at the end of their tether with normal puppy behaviour, chewing, weeing, biting, toilet training problems, recall etc.
Many of these would have been far better of with an older friendly pooch who they could have got quite easily from rescue or even the freeads who would have suited their circumstances a lot better.
Some of those puppies will end up in rescue, pts, multiple homes, despite the breeders "guarantee for life" as the owner will never contact the original breeder.
There needs to be some stage where decent people need to say enough is enough and take on board just what is happening to dogs at the moment and not breed their dogs just because they have an urge to. Showing and other competition can be looked on as being a filter I feel.
There needs to be a very good reason for breeding, otherwise they just join the legions of "pet puppies" and take their chances in these very unstable times for the canine species.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

jaradethan said:


> Thanks very much for all the help, obviously someone has a problem and needs to get out more, but i am tought skinned, don't forget i have shown and bred sucessfuly my Persians for many years with many a champion under my belt and know that some people just can't accept that some people have a genuine love for a breed and want to produce good quality pets as well as show dogs.
> 
> And dont be fooled by "breeders that show" there are some really good breeders out there but just because they show is not going to guarentee good pups/kittens, i have seen cats reach champion who are a very poor example and obviously the judges have been paid off, in one of the shows i went to my cat came second to another persian with very weak eye colour and should never have got first place, and im sure some of this will go on at dog shows too.
> 
> Putting a champion to a Champion DOES NOT garentee show quality pups....


I hope you stay on the forum and get all the help you need as there are some lovely members on here

I have learnt to let things go over my head on here!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

I take your point and understand where your coming from.

But this issue will never be solved, people choose, or should choose a breed to suit there life style and that's what breeders of pedigree dogs offer, alot of rescue dogs back grounds are not know and because of this I would never get a rescue dog due to me having children but that's just me, and doesn't stop me supporting my local animal sanctuary.

You can't blame breeders for the problems in rescues that's down to irresponsible owners.. End of.

I think that if you had to have a license to own a dog, any dog, then people would think twice about taking on a dog and there wouldn't be many in rescue.

Thanks very much for the support Cav!! I really do apreciate it!!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

jaradethan said:


> I take your point and understand where your coming from.
> 
> But this issue will never be solved, people choose, or should choose a breed to suit there life style and that's what breeders of pedigree dogs offer, alot of rescue dogs back grounds are not know and because of this I would never get a rescue dog due to me having children but that's just me, and doesn't stop me supporting my local animal sanctuary.
> 
> ...


yes, but you are still breeding from unproven stock. What is your reason to breed? Even if it's just for pets, then the dog and bitch should have been shown.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> yes, but you are still breeding from unproven stock. What is your reason to breed? Even if it's just for pets, then the dog and bitch should have been shown.


Maybe if you asked the lady questions nicely they may answer you


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> Maybe if you asked the lady questions nicely they may answer you


it's either she does not have a reason to breed, or she's ashamed to say the reason to breed.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases

Is an excellent resource regarding the issues that CKCS have in the breed. It is US based but the problems are the same.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> it's either she does not have a reason to breed, or she's ashamed to say the reason to breed.


Seven pets im not sure what your problem is the lady as made a post regarding health tests and all you have done is have a pop at her there are so many posts about breeding dogs with no health tests done and ive never seen you once post on them.
Why as this got you so wound up


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

why does a dog have to be shown before its bred from?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> because there are too many dogs out there without a home to not breed for a better purpose. why do you think it's ok to breed for a lesser purpose?
> 
> my dog was never good at showing, but his sire is a famous show dog. :001_tt2:


where did i say its ok to breed for a lesser purpose??
maybe time to start preaching to byb's


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

cav said:


> Seven pets im not sure what your problem is the lady as made a post regarding health tests and all you have done is have a pop at her there are so many posts about breeding dogs with no health tests done and ive never seen you once post on them.
> Why as this got you so wound up


those threads are usually about dogs that have already been bred, i'm trying to stop the breeding occurring now before any breeding takes place.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dexter said:


> where did i say its ok to breed for a lesser purpose??


when you asked me why they should breed for a better purpose, meaning you think that breeding for a lesser purpose is fine.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

dexter said:


> why does a dog have to be shown before its bred from?


so it's proven. god!!!! in horses, you would only breed from proven stock, same with cows, sheep etc. in dogs, it's seen as ok to breed any tom, dick and harry as long as they are health tested.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Anyone for Agility ?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

so does that mean we can only all buy show dogs


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

james1 said:


> Anyone for Agility ?


I think i need a large vodka!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

I think i will join you LOL!!

The reason i haven't answered your question directly about why i want to breed is that i dont see the point, whatever i say for my reason you will have a pop at me, you obviously have a problem with breeders, even good genuine breeders and i don't think that what ever i say will please you.

The most important thing is the health of my dogs and future pups. 

They don't have to have a title to acheve this, what good is it to a puppy to be from champion parents if it is not healthy because of over breeding or been kept in cages, not had health checks etc..just because it has titles in its pedigree does not guarentee it will have been love and looked after as much as some one who breeds because they care and not just to gain titles.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

showing is not a necessarity to be able to produce quality pups....

.... to be proven in the show ring? Hmmm... We all know the dog is secondary to the person holding the lead in the showring, so whats there to prove really? lol 

I would say though that if ur new to a breed u should have someone knowledgeable having a look at ur dogs to make sure its a good example of the breed....


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> But how does she contribute to the breed? If she's shown, she would have showing titles and would produce good show dogs, if she does agility, she would have agility titles and would produce good agility dogs. Why are you breeding? IMO, *all stud dogs and brood bitches should have either a showing title or a sport title (such as agility, flyball, field trial etc)*.


doubt it....my dog came from a non show or trial parents so where u get all stud dogs and brood bitches should have....well no completly disagree!!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Dexter said:


> why does a dog have to be shown before its bred from?


I think you are missing the point. The point is that no dog needs to do anything before it is bred at the moment. Irresponsible people are breeding willy nilly all around the country, we will not stop that but decent people who are intelligent and responsible need to consider carefully what they are doing.

The point that Seven Pets is making is that in this country there are dogs aplenty, there are dogs being put down daily and most of them are healthy and would make great pets given half a chance.
If someone wants to breed then in order to justify a person adding to the dog problem then that dog needs to have something special going for it. It needs to have good breed characteristics or good working characteristics in order to be "special".
Now many, many pet dogs have nice things about them but it doesn't make them great examples of the breed, it makes them nice pets but as I have said those being put down daily are "nice pets".

It is all very well someone saying they are "stunning" dogs but most dogs are stunning to their owner. The show ring or a working environment will sort out those who are actually "stunning" from those who are just "ordinary". 
I am not saying every dog needs to win Crufts but if it goes to a few shows and judges point out fairly major faults and it comes last every time then perhaps the breeding plans need altered. Health is great but there is more to breeding "special" dogs than just health and temperament as those being put down daily have both often in abundance.
In this world at the moment, where there are huge numbers of "ordinary" dogs languishing in rescue, then in order to justify responsible breeding then I feel you need to be producing something special, or perhaps don't bother at all.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> yes, but you are still breeding from unproven stock. What is your reason to breed? Even if it's just for pets, then the dog and bitch should have been shown.


this is...to be honest...the biggest load of rubbish i have ever heard...why do the sire and dam need to be proven show or agility iv saw some awfull looking dogs come from champion parents so i am baffeled and confused at why u think champ lines r needed???


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I think you are missing the point. The point is that no dog needs to do anything before it is bred at the moment. Irresponsible people are breeding willy nilly all around the country, we will not stop that but decent people who are intelligent and responsible need to consider carefully what they are doing.
> 
> The point that Seven Pets is making is that in this country there are dogs aplenty, there are dogs being put down daily and most of them are healthy and would make great pets given half a chance.
> If someone wants to breed then in order to justify a person adding to the dog problem then that dog needs to have something special going for it. It needs to have good breed characteristics or good working characteristics in order to be "special".
> ...


yes and i agree with you but the lady asked for advice and they were jumped on because they dont show.
I think most good breeders have a waiting list and always take there pups or dogs back at any time.
I keep in touch with all my dogs they would never end up in rescue


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

cav said:


> I think most good breeders have a waiting list and always take there pups or dogs back at any time.
> I keep in touch with all my dogs they would never end up in rescue


If a breeder, for instance breeds Staffie crosses, and homes her dogs to good homes and none ever end up in rescue, is she adding to the Staffie cross problem in rescue or not?


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

look OP im glad u are getting health tests done!!! and i hope all goes well!! dont take any notice of anyone else! they r lookin for any reason to cause an argument! goodluk! xx


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> If a breeder, for instance breeds Staffie crosses, and homes her dogs to good homes and none ever end up in rescue, is she adding to the Staffie cross problem in rescue or not?


I dont think you should breed a cross you should breed to improve your breed not chuck 2 dogs together.
I would say yes you are adding to the rescue problem because there would be no reason to breed them.
My st bernard was kind off a rescue i would never breed her.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i 've never heard so much rubbish LMAO..... i'll pass on the agility bit , too old for leaping about, i'll stick to showing my dogs that way i can breed from them if i so wished LMAO........... 

pass that vodie before i loose the plot


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

Oh you have a St Bernard, i have a very soft spot for them, we used to have one too but we sadly lost him to old age 6 years ago, fantastic dogs if you can stand the snot and saliva (that is really glue in disguise) up your walls, legs etc..love them to bits..


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## shihtzumum (Sep 2, 2009)

Well i`ve never read a thread that as gone so far of topic as this one.

i own four breeding bitches who were all bred as pet first, some have some great champions in their lines.
i will not be showing any of my girls as its just not my cup of tea, so are my girls just mediocer dogs :idea:
i studied my desired breed long before i got my first one, i had already resuced a staffy bitch when my children were little, and had then found myself at home due to ill health, luckily my hubby has a good career and can suport us so i can be at home with my dogs, my girls are what you might call "just pets" but not me they are part of my family, my best friends, my companions and my life, haveing them has helpped me through my illness.
After deciding to breed i researched as much as i can, i talked to other breeders and show people, i got myself some good mentors and attended many whelpings..
All the correct testing was done and we are now a year and half later expecting our first litter of shih tzu`s any day now. i am breeding because i can and for the love of my breed, my girls and their studs are breed standard and tested, i hope to provide owners with healthy well bred "pets first" any that go on to be shown or compete in agility will be a bonus.

Now back to the thread is`nt it better that people come on here and ask questions and gain as much info as they can before breeding, i hate it when first time breeders get shot own in flames before they even start, and then get blamed for the rescue dogs, how many well bred pedigree dogs do you see in rescues ?
Hope this thread doesn`t stop the o/p asking future questions


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> because you have something to hide and you don't want to say it on a forum.


Why would you say that about someone who clearly know's what they're talking about. Have you ever been a breeder? from what your spouting i don't think so!. Best leave these thread's too people who know what they're talking about!. I'm not going too offer any advice because like you i know chuff all about breedingut:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think you are missing the point. The point is that no dog needs to do anything before it is bred at the moment. Irresponsible people are breeding willy nilly all around the country, we will not stop that but decent people who are intelligent and responsible need to consider carefully what they are doing.
> 
> The point that Seven Pets is making is that in this country there are dogs aplenty, there are dogs being put down daily and most of them are healthy and would make great pets given half a chance.
> If someone wants to breed then in order to justify a person adding to the dog problem then that dog needs to have something special going for it. It needs to have good breed characteristics or good working characteristics in order to be "special".
> ...


she's saying all the right things, and is putting it much better than I ever could. I can't believe the people who I thought were good in this forum are actively encouraging breeding from unproven stock. I really can't believe it. The world's gone crazy.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> why are you breeding when there are thousands of dogs in rescue centres? even if it's good quality, it's still just a dog. the dogs need to prove themselves either in the show ring or the working environment (agility etc), otherwise it's just a dog.


And if there shown and worked there not just a dog!? shown, worked, pets there ALL still JUST DOGS! yes we show but ours are our pets before anything! I cant belive the dis-respect some true breeders are being shown!  !!! and i for one know cav has pup lists as long as her arm before breeding! so is not helping add to the thousands in the rescue!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> And if there shown and worked there not just a dog!? shown, worked, pets there ALL still JUST DOGS! yes we show but ours are our pets before anything! I cant belive the dis-respect some true breeders are being shown!  !!! and i for one know cav has pup lists as long as her arm before breeding! so is not helping add to the thousands in the rescue!


but people are breeding because they want to, or because they can. Who thinks about the dogs here, and the thousands in rescues? A dog has to be special to be allowed to be bred from.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Sadly there will always be dogs in rescue until rescues relax on there rules and regulations this will still be a problem. 

Why stop a person who is trying to get all the info now and getting health tests done? to be honest i dont think ive ever seen a cav in rescue here, I see plenty of ex breeders on manytears from the puppy farms-they are the people who need to be stopped from breeding they dont give two hoots about health tests e.t.c and are breeding poor puppies most of the time 

Ive never heard of them needing to be shown to breed e.t.c Im sure not everyone on here whos had a litter has shown thier dog?!


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

I think the point here is that as a breeder you should be aiming to breed the best that you can - this should be across the spectrum to include health, temperament, construction and type - to do this realistically you must have a yardstick that can compare the dogs you are producing against others of the same breed - after all we all believe that the dogs we breed are wonderful specimens of their breed but in reality it is only when we directly compare them with others that we can truly see how they measure up.

The words in a breed standard can be fairly open to interpretation - it is difficult to see how closely your dogs conform to their breed standard without comapring them with the very best of their breed.

for example in the breed standard for my own breed is the requirement for a square construction:





it is only by comparing the first pup against the second that I can judge how well I have achieved this in my breeding programme

Thats why showing or some other kind of outside asessment is so important !


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but people are breeding because they want to, or because they can. Who thinks about the dogs here, and the thousands in rescues? A dog has to be special to be allowed to be bred from.


do show people not breed because of the same reasons? 

A dog is special as a dog (That includes breed standard, health, temperament) and NOT because it has a rosette hanging in the room.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but people are breeding because they want to, or because they can. Who thinks about the dogs here, and the thousands in rescues? A dog has to be special to be allowed to be bred from.


I agree a dog has to be a nice dog to be breed from! BUT showing or working your dog does NOT mean its nice enough to breed from! just like it doesnt mean a dog that is only a pet wont do well in the ring if it ever entered! 
Some pet breeders can breed just the same as some one that shows or works there dogs the only differece is the pups go to pet homes!! some infact most of ours go to pet homes and we show!  you never know at a young age if a pup is good enough for the ring!! you have to wait atleast 6months and things can still go wrong! Just because two dogs are shown DOES not mean there going to produce excellent off spring! yes you aim for it but thats not always the way! same as pet breeders aim for nice qualitly pups! yes thats not always the way! just because you dont have your dog to show or work does not mean it is a poor example of the breed!!!


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree with Bijou.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Bijou said:


> Thats why showing or some other kind of outside asessment is so important !


right, so u dont need to show...an outside assessment is just as good if not better....


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## Molly's Mum (May 22, 2009)

jaradethan said:


> Hi, i have two stunning King Charles girls who are my world and i love them to bits. I would like to breed from them both, they are still young and wont be ready for another year, i have no experience breeding dogs but i have shown and breed Persians for 10 years and always had the health checks done, although i have given up now, i know that breeding/showing dogs is a whole different ball game.
> 
> I picked them very carefully and they are stunning examples, one stunning Ruby and one Blehnim with the desirable spot on her head, they are KC registered with no endorsments etc..
> 
> ...


Hi and a very warm welcome; sorry you've had a rough ride today from some :cursing::cursing:

It's great to hear you are researching the Health testing for you dogs; it makes a refreshing change.

Cav will help you out loads, she's a great breeder and a lovely lady too .

I hope you get all the information & advice you need, please don't be put off by people just out to cause trouble.

MM


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

jaradethan said:


> "She" has a name thank you very much!!!!!:cursing:
> 
> I am asking a question about health checks, im not asking for you to give an opinion on the reasons why i want to breed, and i don't have to justify myself to you, its never enough for some people that some newbie breeders have a genuine interest and love for a breed and want to do it the right way, .
> Its people like you that cause people to "back yard breed" as all you do is pull people down that are trying to do it the right way rather than offering a helping hand and constructive advice, every one even top cruft show winners started somewhere.
> ...


I agree not everyone wants a dog to put in he show ring or send out into the fields to work, we were very carefull when getting our springers, health tested, excellent field trial champs down the line, ok some people say why? my answer is we were trying to ensure we got a healthy dog (only one we had didnt work that way despite all the health tests) a dog with the working background have a natural ability/desire to learn/ be trained.
I.M.O its the dogs that are not health tested etc, that end up mostly in rescue or p.t.s.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

Makes me laugh (not that it should) people come on here and want to do everything right! people support them because there trying to do there best for there bitch and any pups that will be born to her!and all they get is others bad mouthing there breeding etichs for trying to help! Yet when me and other members jump down peoples back for not health testing ect..we get in trouble! I would like to see you all try this on a member that doesnt even care about health tests let alone anything else! why discourage some one from doing it correctly! this forum does make me laugh!!! well some of the members sure do.


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

I don't know anything about breeding, I just wanted to say that I think it is good that someone has joined to ask about health tests and research before having a litter. Please don't be put off by the few that are critising you, I have never seen them on any other thread picking fault with people that plan to breed untested dogs, so they must be having an off day!! 

Good luck with your girls, and you will find some very helpful, knowlegable breeders on here!


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

I think that by "proving" one's dogs at work or in show, you are increasing the chances that the potential puppies will inheirit mom/dad's good looks or working ability. This is EXTEMELY important in some breeds. Everyone saw that Pedigree Dogs Exposed documetary/crapumentary and that Peke had a "cosmetic" surgery to fix his pallate, this was genetic, yet that dog went on to win Crufts and SIRE god knows how many dogs. This just goes prove that not all showdogs are the best of the best.

There are some breeds out there that are fairly sturdy, you could probably get away with not working or showing if you have delved into the pedigrees and studied the ink off the pages. The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel is NOT one of them. The Cavalier is so poorly as a breed, heart and eyes aren't the only things you should be looking at.

Until you can prove the lack of most of the 75+ diseases listed on the cavalier health website, you shouldn't be breeding. This means extensive research into the pedigrees.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Health & Genetic Diseases



> Here are the TOP TEN Worst Excuses which breeders of the Cavalier King Charles spaniel have actually used to explain why they do not health test their Cavalier breeding stock. The excuses are listed in reverse order, from the least offensive to the most outrageous. And, be sure to check out the ultimate breeder's excuse at the bottom of this page.
> 
> #10. I refuse to have my Cavaliers anesthetized to have their hips x-rayed! Veterinarians and veterinary assistants who are competent with radiography equipment can x-ray the hips of unanesthetized Cavalier King Charles spaniels without any problems, for Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) evaluations.
> 
> ...


Cavalier Breeders' Worst Excuses

I would recommend memorizing that website entirely before considering breeding. If you're going to be producing puppies, you need to be an EXPERT on the breed, this includes the health, conformation and working ability of the breed so you can answer any questions your puppy buyers will have.

I'm not saying that you absolutely MUST show or work your dogs, but generally the people who do show, work, volunteer in rescue etc appear more trustworthy, as they have invested a lot of time and effort in proving their breed, proving their knowledge in the breed.

Producng the best quality puppies will allow those pups the BEST chance at a happy and healthy long life. By skipping over conformation/work or not going for FULL health testing or using a dog with a less than stellar temperament, you're not giving the puppies you're producing the very best chance at life.

Good Luck with your girls, but please do a bit more research as to what tests need doing.

Eyes...CERF/PRA, PENHIP/OFA (Hip dysplasia/patellar luxation), Echo/Holter (heart diseases), Full Thyroid Panels...That's a STARK bare minimum straight off the top of my head.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> that's wrong, all breeding dogs should be health tested AND shown/worked.


Ime not arguing but just curious what you think to dog owners like myself that buy in my case springers that have health tests and are from generations of field trial champs with no intentions of working them they are family pets as not everyone wants to show or work their dogs.


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## brackensmom (Jun 15, 2009)

Molly's Mum said:


> Hi and a very warm welcome; sorry you've had a rough ride today from some :cursing::cursing:
> 
> It's great to hear you are researching the Health testing for you dogs; it makes a refreshing change.
> 
> ...


h

Well said Molly, 
Welcome Lola and good luck with the health tests.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

ah but the whole point of the show scene is that you get to compare your breeding with LOTS of others not just one persons assessment but many many opinions by different judges throughout the year- you can also see what certain lines are likely to produce so can have a much clearer idea of what to use to improve the weaknesses in your own line - you get to know what dogs are producing shy temperaments, or upright shoulders or not enough bone etc etc ...you can also see what dogs from other countries are producing thus opening up your potential gene pool - in short you are far better informed when it comes to planning your next litter - 

after all some health tests work in the same way -for example it is only by comparing your dogs hip scores with others of the same breed that enables you to say that it is good ( each breed will have an average to compare your result by) a good result for a Mastiff for example would be pretty poor for a BSD !- information is VITAL when breeding -simply saying " my dog is a stunning example of the breed" is meaningless unless you have some way of measuring it against others of the same breed.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ime not arguing but just curious what you think to dog owners like myself that buy in my case springers that have health tests and are from generations of field trial champs with no intentions of working them they are family pets as not everyone wants to show or work their dogs.


and you breed them? then I don't agree with it. You should do something, such a show, agility, flyball etc. even though they are family pets, they are not proven.

this only seems to be in the dog world. farm animals have to be proven before they are bred so that good stock are bred to go into the next generation. why are dogs seen as lower than this?


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

How many more times dogs do not have to be shown or worked to be proven! gosh!!
So many dogs that hold championship titles in the show world are poor examples of the breed imo and there is much better out there that could have been placed! (some even at home because there JUST pets)! but hey lets breed them because of the stuff written on a piece of paper! and the amount of rossets ut:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> How many more times dogs do not have to be shown or worked to be proven! gosh!!


why do i have to agree with you? i have my views, which are obviously different to yours, put up with it.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Bijou said:


> after all some health tests work in the same way -for example it is only by comparing your dogs hip scores with others of the same breed that enables you to say that it is good ( each breed will have an average to compare your result by) a good result for a Mastiff for example would be pretty poor for a BSD !- information is VITAL when breeding -simply saying " my dog is a stunning example of the breed" is meaningless unless you have some way of measuring it against others of the same breed.


u dont need to attend shows to figure out the average breed score 

U still dont have to put ur dog into the showring to compare it to other dogs....


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> and you breed them? then I don't agree with it. You should do something, such a show, agility, flyball etc. even though they are family pets, they are not proven.
> 
> this only seems to be in the dog world. farm animals have to be proven before they are bred so that good stock are bred to go into the next generation. why are dogs seen as lower than this?


 You mention about farm animals. I don't know anything about breeding them either, but from what you say, every sheep and cow I see round here that is pregnant has been shown??? I think in an ideal world, yes, but not in the real world! I think health testing and researching your breed is deffinatly good! And don't forget, not every dog likes showing. So you think it would be fair to drag it round a show ring, just so it can be bred from?!!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> why do i have to agree with you? i have my views, which are obviously different to yours, put up with it.


its complete rubbish! we have a little dog here thats mum and dad did well in the ring! she is the WORST example of the breed i have EVER seen! but she should be perfect right because her mum and dad was shown?

we also have a little girl here that is am amazing example of the breed imo! guess where we got her! yep a pet breeder! she and pups have done well in the ring! but thats not right no? of course not because her parents werent shown! deary dear..

we also have what we belive a stunning male here (also been said to us by many breeders) that we will later down the line put to one of our females! he has not been shown because he HATES it!! shot me now for we have sinned.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

charlie9009 said:


> You mention about farm animals. I don't know anything about breeding them either, but from what you say, every sheep and cow I see round here that is pregnant has been shown??? I think in an ideal world, yes, but not in the real world! I think health testing and researching your breed is deffinatly good! And don't forget, not every dog likes showing. So you think it would be fair to drag it round a show ring, just so it can be bred from?!!


Cows and sheep are shown yes. A farmer will not use a bull/ram that is not proven.

If the dog doesn't like showing, you can always try the other dog sports (flyball, agility etc).


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> its complete rubbish! we have a little dog here thats mum and dad did well in the ring! she is the WORST example of the breed i have EVER seen! but she should be perfect right because her mum and dad was shown?
> 
> we also have a little girl here that is am amazing example of the breed imo! guess where we got her! yep a pet breeder! she and pups have done well in the ring! but thats not right no? of course not because her parents werent shown! deary dear.


i hope you aren't going to breed from the first one. Not all pups from show litters are good, as has been said by others.

so you bred a dog that was from unproven parents? oh dear


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i hope you aren't going to breed from the first one. Not all pups from show litters are good, as has been said by others.
> 
> so you bred a dog that was from unproven parents? oh dear


what you think we are stupied! course we wont breed the first one SHE IS A POOR EXAMPLE OF THE BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE RESCUED HER!!!!!!!

Yeah we did as she is a wonderful example of her breed! and all pups went on to qualife for crufts! you really think breeding is just about the showing title! me thinks you have a lot to learn about the show and breeding world.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The OP is a person who has shown Persian cats previously. She by her own admission is new to dog breeding, is it totally outrageous to suggest that she perhaps show her "stunning" dogs to get some sort of assessment as to their quality before breeding them?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I really can not be bothered to argue any more. if the OP wants to breed yet more pups into the world, then be my guest. I have my views, you all have yours, lets just leave it at that.

i'd say listen to lauren001, she's the one talking the real sense on this thread.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> and you breed them? then I don't agree with it. You should do something, such a show, agility, flyball etc. even though they are family pets, they are not proven.
> 
> this only seems to be in the dog world. farm animals have to be proven before they are bred so that good stock are bred to go into the next generation. why are dogs seen as lower than this?


No i dont breed them, neither work them, but as far as they are concerned they do work the only thing missing is the gun they will work in their own right if they are exercised in woods fields, off lead. they are well adjusted happy dogs why should they need to be proved i dont understand. I f i was to breed with them which i dont want to, the pups would be able to go as family pets or to working owners so are you saying they wouldnt because they arnt proven. Forgive me if i have totaly misunderstood.

Someone i know has 4 working springers 1 is not k.c registered whatever the reason i dont know another he works cost him a thousand pounds fantatic background, the works and he has openly said the un registered one with not so good a backgroung or unproven if thats what you mean is the best out on the fiels/shoot by far.


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## charlie9009 (Nov 24, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> Cows and sheep are shown yes. A farmer will not use a bull/ram that is not proven.


 I know cows and sheep are shown, but not every female cow and sheep that I see pregnant around here! So as long as OP uses a stud that has been shown, you wouldn't have a problem???!!


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> The OP is a person who has shown Persian cats previously. She by her own admission is new to dog breeding, is it totally outrageous to suggest that she perhaps show her "stunning" dogs to get some sort of assessment as to their quality before breeding them?


NO one said it was! what is wrong is people making silly statements about how only dogs that are shown or worked should be bred from! if people in our bred only breed from dogs that had champion titles in the ring i tell you now there would only be two breeders breeding! we all know the show world is hardly EVER judged on the dogs itself but the person who owns/breed the dog.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i'd say listen to lauren001, she's the one talking the real sense on this thread.


and thats just your views! there is plenty of people that would disagree theres lots of people on here talking sense! shame you dont feel the need to come on the breeding threads when its people breeding from non-health tested parents..


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> shame you dont feel the need to come on the breeding threads when its people breeding from non-health tested parents..


i don't actually see these threads, maybe i just miss them, but i'll certainly give my two cent when i do see one.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> i don't actually see these threads, maybe i just miss them, but i'll certainly give my two cent when i do see one.


what !!!! are you serious!! nooo!! theres more threads on that than anything else!   cant belive you missed um.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> what !!!! are you serious!! nooo!! theres more threads on that than anything else!   cant belive you missed um.


seriously i don't see them.


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## shihtzumum (Sep 2, 2009)

jaradethan said:


> Hi, i have two stunning King Charles girls who are my world and i love them to bits. I would like to breed from them both, they are still young and wont be ready for another year, i have no experience breeding dogs but i have shown and breed Persians for 10 years and always had the health checks done, although i have given up now, i know that breeding/showing dogs is a whole different ball game.
> 
> I picked them very carefully and they are stunning examples, one stunning Ruby and one Blehnim with the desirable spot on her head, they are KC registered with no endorsments etc..
> 
> ...


This thread is completly off topic, lets go back and remember the original question, we should be able to help new breeders, and if you don`t agree then leave it at that, don`t turn someone elses thread into a slanging match.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

well said!!!


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## Ladywiccana (Feb 24, 2008)

*This thread will now be closed!*


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