# Views on early neutering and spaying



## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi everyone,
I was just wondering what other breeders do in regards to neuting & spaying pet kittens before they leave home at 13-14 weeks.
I will be planing my 1st litter soon, and have thought this one over very carefully. 
Some breeders i have spoke to say they use contracts to neuter at say 6 months and have never had any problams.
But what are you ment to do if someone doesn't.:nonod:
I guess i'm just worried about the operation on them being so small.
Or the though of someone using one of my kittens for a byb.:nonod:
So would be intrested in other views.....:smile:


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I am certainly hoping to do so - and Taylorbaby on here def does it - have a look at the why you should spay / neuter thread at the top of this section she shows pics of hers only an hour or so after the op and it always seems to go well.


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi Spid,
I had another look, yes they do need to be neutered/spayed. Just a bit scared of them being so young... 13-14 weeks
But most of they do seem to get over it quicker at that age. its just the few that dont that worries me.....


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

We now early neuter - have had my last five litters done at 14 weeks and then held onto them an extra week for the boys and 10 days for the girls just to ensure they were all A-OK. Initially I was against early neuter but I have to say I have been amazed at the kittens recovery time (more so than at say six months!). But you should speak to your vet at length and do your research. It did take us a while to make the decision, after speaking to our vet on numerous occasions and also other breeders who had/were doing it.

Our vet is from NZ where early neutering is the norm there and he can't quite understand the reluctance of UK vets to do it. He goes on the size of the kitten rather than it's age. We haven't had any problems with any of the kittens we have had done to date.


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

I think as long as your Vet is confident in early neutering there should only be the same worry you always have over any animal having an op. The earliest my Vet will do is 2kg in weight, but the boys I have had done then recovered brilliantly. 

It may sound harsh, but the very small risk of a problem is always there, I personally would rather take the risk myself than let the kitten go to their new home and learn of a possible loss at 6 months say, when they are much loved both by you and the new family. At least you know the kitten well, also you can compare the recovery with that of the litter siblings and are likely to have a better, more mutually respectful relationship with the Vet than a new owner might have, so could alert them to any worries you might have about the kitten's recovery. Not that my Vet will early neuter anyway mind you.


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi, Thank you for your replies, i will have a ring round some local vets to see who does it, i don't think my vets do, but i'll be there soon getting a boster done so i will ask about it then.
Thanks


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

I dont know much about this subject but personally I would rather wait until the kitten is 6 months old. Seems wrong to neuter a baby animal before it is fully grown. I also wonder what effect early neutering has on the animals bones. Early menopause/hysterectomy in a human female results in bone thinning without HRT.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Surely neutering at six months would count as an early menopause then and as far as I'm aware nobody has been putting spayed female cats on HRT. It's simply been common practice in the UK to neuter at six months and this is now entrenched in peoples minds as 'right'.


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## izzyc (Dec 18, 2011)

I'm not a breeder but I've been involved in rescue. I'm strongly in favour of early neutering/spaying, provided the vet is happy the kitten will come through the anaesthetic ok. In the case of feral kittens who are in a trap/neuter/release programme some people will do it as early as 8 weeks if that's when they catch the kitten since they may not get another chance to trap it!

There is always a risk with an animal going through an operation and I do understand why some people don't want to get their cats done. I believe however that since kittens heal so fast at that age, it's the right thing to do if the vet is happy.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

rose said:


> I dont know much about this subject but personally I would rather wait until the kitten is 6 months old. Seems wrong to neuter a baby animal before it is fully grown. I also wonder what effect early neutering has on the animals bones. Early menopause/hysterectomy in a human female results in bone thinning without HRT.


A cat isn't fully grown at 6 months though - and some of the larger breeds aren't fully grown until 4 years old - if you waited till then the incidence of 'unexpected pregnancy', Pyo's, mammary cancer etc would be exponential. There are many studies done to show that early neutering doesn't affect them adversely (and neutering at 6 months is also early really too)


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Bellini's breeder had him spayed at approximately 4 months old.

It is a tough decision for breeders choosing the right owner who will do right by the kitten and not see it as a way to earn a bit of cash.


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## K337 (May 20, 2011)

I'm from Aus so it surprised me to learn my kittens were coming home entire, especially as they were males . I certainly would prefer to have any kitten join me as already neutered, even if this means another week or month at the breeders and an increase in price. If I was a breeder then I'd be scouting around for a vet with lots of experience in neutering small kittens and having it done before they go to their new homes.


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

We have early neutered our kittens ever since we have been breeding, it is a myth that early neutering stunts growth, all our kittens are the same size as any other breeders kittensWe have never had problems with early neutered kittens and they bounce back so quickly, we early neuter at 14 weeks and they go to their new home at 15-16 weeks


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## notsure (Sep 2, 2011)

As another from Australia, where it has been common practice for years, I'm all for it especially for kittens being rehomed from rescue centres (when I first joined these forums I was surprised to learn rescues in the UK didn't do it).

Whenever I look at the pics of newborn kittens in the breeding section - I find myself going "awww wouldn't it be nice..." ofc at that point the fact that I've also read all the stories by breeders on here that explain all the time, money, emotion & sheer hard work that goes into a successful breeding program brings me back to reality.

Most of the general public however don't have that reality check - most of them just see the kittens without everything else involved and think why not (and then there's the old wives tale of letting them have 1 litter first etc etc). 

Even those that do, (or should) know better can run into circumstances that mean they delay getting it done and are then at risk of "accidents". 

I'll hold my hand up and say I was one of those (the delay not the accident). I had originally wanted my two boys done asap, however the vet wouldn't do them until 5 months - which meant they were due in mid Dec, as we were meant to be going away for christmas, I decided to put it off a month to mid-Jan. Then circumstances meant that we couldn't afford to get them done in Jan (and yes other things were sacrificed first), and so they weren't done until this week at 7 & 7.5 months. 

In the current ecconomic climate people are having to save money where they can, and while it is a false ecconomy, someone putting off neutering is easy to understand (remember we're talking about the general public here not informed owners who fully understand the risks).

In the end though every breeder needs to research and decide for themselves if it's something they are willing to do or not.


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks for your views :001_smile:
I will be talking to my vet soon.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

if you take a look through here I did a few posts on this and the neutering thread above 

There is no reason to leave it to 6 months, ask the vet 'why' this is, I bet you that they cant give you a answer! Its nothing to do with size - less drugs are used on the kittens so the recovery is quicker, doesnt stunt growth, neutered cats are bigger... Nothing to do with maturity - Cats dont mature fully until 2 even later in some stages...

So its a very odd number to pick 6 months? why 6?? its only the sex hormones you are taking away, the spraying/fighting/calling/screaming/roaming/crapping in your house... to me its a good thing! Girls can get it even worse, they can actually die from pyometra if not neutered.

We neuter our kittens before they go now, at first I didnt beleive in it! thought 'oh I cant do that!' The stress of waiting for neutering proof to come through, I keep in contact with everyone and unpdate them about it, then the phonecalls of 'oh do you mind if I mate him once in a few months to my mates cat?' ERM NO!! 'Oh she would make a great mum...' NO!

So it got me to question why I was being to naive and stupid! Then I found out that its normal for most breeders to neuter before they leave! And the UK are, well, just backwards!

So I asked about and researched, was recomended to a AMAZING vet, has been EN for 30years, ALL over the world japan/aus/usa, gives talk to other vets about EN, and he is lovely, I was so happy, so my first 3 babies went in...and that was it! they recovered BEFORE I got them home, I set up a crate so I could sleep by them, popped mum in with them & the babies...woke up to find them all playing on me! Poor mum left in the crate lol! theres me thinking they would need recovery time! It just amazed me, but less drugs are used, the operations themself take LESS! then 10mins!

It is truly amazing, and I find that I am less stressed! and I know that everyone genuinly wants a pet, also all the new pet owners have been so greatful that I take the pressure off of them, they dont need to book time off work, the stress of taking the kitten to the vets, picking them up, a week or more with a collar, the cost etc I do it all, they just bring the love lol! 

again here are the pictures of one of my kittens, its been 2weeks since the op now and you cant see anything! then 2 kittens done at months, obviously the scar is alot bigger and it took them alot longer to recover and they needed a collar, then one pulled out her stiches, oh my vet uses disovable stiches and only does flank spay, always have flank!


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Hi, great post and pictures!!!!
Thanks
Can i ask why always flank spay? Is this better than mid line?
If so why?
I called my vet they said "we only neter from 6 months" and was told i need to speak to the vet for more info.
So looks like i'll have to phone around to find another vet.
What age were your little ones netered at? 14 weeks?
I am def swaying to netering before they leave.
Mine are colour point persians, the reason i ask about mid line as the coat can grow back darker.
Thanks agian


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Flank spay is the norm in the UK. The only thing that is cut to gain access is the cat's skin - the muscle layers are simply parted and spring back afterwards. My own vet used sub-cutaneous dissolving stitches on my girl, though they did want her back 10 days later just to check all was well. The incision was about 1/2 inch long!

A mid-line means cutting the linea alba as well as the skin, so there is a little more healing required.

My own girl wasn't spayed until she was 9 months old. She was very small for her age when I got her, and was still rather small at 6 months. The two boys were both neutered, she couldn't get out, and when eventually she had a call I took her along the next week. She bounced out of the carrier when I got her home, did the wall of death with her brother, ate a hearty supper, did some more running around and then slept all night.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> when I first joined these forums I was surprised to learn rescues in the UK didn't do it


Many do. What's more they use the same vets that the rest of us do - the self same vets will neuter from 8 weeks for rescues but refuse to touch a private client's cat until 6 months. My own vet is a prime example of this double standard.


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

my last two wegies were done by their breeder at 11 weeks - in between their vaccs and they are now 5 1/2 months and are fine. at least i dont have to worry about stressing them out


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

nice to see breeders are doing that now it started with the rescues i would love it my vets wont though really annoying


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lisa306 said:


> Hi, great post and pictures!!!!
> Thanks
> Can i ask why always flank spay? Is this better than mid line?
> If so why?
> ...


flank is quicker less invasive, midline, Ive only ever seen and had problems with, the flank incsion on my kittens in 1MM !! If you ask most breeders and pet owners then they would op for flank 



OrientalSlave said:


> Flank spay is the norm in the UK. The only thing that is cut to gain access is the cat's skin - the muscle layers are simply parted and spring back afterwards. My own vet used sub-cutaneous dissolving stitches on my girl, though they did want her back 10 days later just to check all was well. The incision was about 1/2 inch long!
> 
> A mid-line means cutting the linea alba as well as the skin, so there is a little more healing required.
> 
> My own girl wasn't spayed until she was 9 months old. She was very small for her age when I got her, and was still rather small at 6 months. The two boys were both neutered, she couldn't get out, and when eventually she had a call I took her along the next week. She bounced out of the carrier when I got her home, did the wall of death with her brother, ate a hearty supper, did some more running around and then slept all night.


no need to wait, we are neutering kittens remember  so she still could have been done 



havoc said:


> Many do. What's more they use the same vets that the rest of us do - the self same vets will neuter from 8 weeks for rescues but refuse to touch a private client's cat until 6 months. My own vet is a prime example of this double standard.


that is crazy!!!!! Have you asked him why?? 



jenny armour said:


> my last two wegies were done by their breeder at 11 weeks - in between their vaccs and they are now 5 1/2 months and are fine. at least i dont have to worry about stressing them out


Thats the way I do mine to! They dont even get stressed, amazing! :laugh:



raggie doll said:


> nice to see breeders are doing that now it started with the rescues i would love it my vets wont though really annoying


breeders have been doing it for many many years, just few and far between though, I dont know any breeders, well, maybe a few who dont neuter before they go, everyone else I know, does!  You could always travel/look for another vet? Took us ages to find our vet he was recomended to us by pet & breeders for EN, we was recomended to another but the travel would be about 60-90 there then anything up to 3hours back due to traffic, that wouldnt be fair on the kits, this vet is a straight 15min journey!


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Been phoning around some vets, none of the ones i called do early neutering.
They are saying 6 months 1 said 5.
Now i've found this page from the cats Proeiction, put in your posed code and it finds local early neuter vets.
Find an Early Neutering Vet
Most near me say 4 months, but it is very true that they neuter feral kittens earlyer, can't understand this, its as if they would take the risk on them but not owned cats. 
I found one vets, not too far from me that neuters at 12 weeks, so i will be making an appointment soon to talk to the vet in more detail.
The more vets that say 6 months, makes me think, why? is the risk higher, if NOT then why do more vets not neuter early!!!


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry if it sounds like i'm moaning and going on, but its just that i want to make the right decision.....


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> flank is quicker less invasive, midline, Ive only ever seen and had problems with, the flank incsion on my kittens in 1MM !! If you ask most breeders and pet owners then they would op for flank
> 
> no need to wait, we are neutering kittens remember  so she still could have been done
> 
> ...


thats good then i have a few friends who have vets that do it by weight but mine are useless i wanted all mine done early and they wouldn't but i find that london is terrible for early neutering i have been to 6 different vets in the past 5 years and all seem to be money orientated, but glad to see more breeders are neutering early


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

lisa306 said:


> been phoning around some vets, none of the ones i called do early neutering.
> They are saying 6 months 1 said 5.
> Now i've found this page from the cats proeiction, put in your posed code and it finds local early neuter vets.
> find an early neutering vet
> ...


i think you have hit the nail on the head. A vet will take more chances on ferrals, if it doesnt work, well there are plenty out there.
Just to change the subject for a mom, my friend rescued a stray that was living in her garden and took him to the emergency vet because he had upper respiratory. The vet said to her why are you bothering with him, he is only a stray.
So yes thats makes sense why vets will take that chance.
I also think that alot of vets still dont look on cats especially moggies as domestic pets like they do dogs.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Now i've found this page from the cats Proeiction, put in your posed code and it finds local early neuter vets.


Hmmm. My own vet is on there claiming (as they all seem to) that they neuter from 4 months and yet I know they do so much younger for the CPL and won't touch a privately owned cat under 6 months.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Many do. What's more they use the same vets that the rest of us do - the self same vets will neuter from 8 weeks for rescues but refuse to touch a private client's cat until 6 months. My own vet is a prime example of this double standard.
> that is crazy!!!!! Have you asked him why??


Only every time I take a litter of kittens in for vaccinations. Their argument is that because I breed pedigree kittens I make sure they go to homes with responsible owners so they will be neutered eventually. Obviously this is my aim but it wouldn't be my primary reason for early neutering anyway. I honestly believe that the stress is less and recovery time shorter for a litter still together in their birth home.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lisa306 said:


> Been phoning around some vets, none of the ones i called do early neutering.
> They are saying 6 months 1 said 5.
> Now i've found this page from the cats Proeiction, put in your posed code and it finds local early neuter vets.
> Find an Early Neutering Vet
> ...


lol your moving to all of our way of thinking now lol! 12weeks is still good, they recover so quick, then that depends on when your vacs are done, to when they can leave, we do ours kinda inbetween, so it doesnt clash and they still get time to settle, but they are so outgoing and confident that they dont even need the extra time!



havoc said:


> Only every time I take a litter of kittens in for vaccinations. Their argument is that because I breed pedigree kittens I make sure they go to homes with responsible owners so they will be neutered eventually. Obviously this is my aim but it wouldn't be my primary reason for early neutering anyway. I honestly believe that the stress is less and recovery time shorter for a litter still together in their birth home.


that is just silly! and that doesnt mean that they Would be neutered eventually either, as much as you trust someone having your kittens, some people Do have other motives, I have now had over 60 people want to use my stud, most moggies, but some of them have been register cats on NON active NOT for breeding, this includes: ragdolls/siamese/maine coons/birman
I try to push people further for breeder information, but when I get to that point they stop talking to me, I did get info of one breeder and contacted her to let her know, as the lady said to me 'well if you wont accept me ill let her outside by accident then' 

I Always stay in touch with people send them updates on when neutering is to be done, But some breeders arent like that, a few breeders Ive seen dont do any updates and dont even cotnact people when the neutering proof doesnt come at 6 months of age!  I would and could not let it go that far, but some I dont think care enough, so people dont bother then start to think about breeding.

I also had one email from someone wanting a kitten, her name rang a bell so I googled her email...she was a back yard breeder living near me and selling 'pedigrees' which were crosses, and she wanted a boy & girl from me' was nice as pie in the emails saying they were only as pets, she had other pedigrees that she lets outside etc, so Id rather neuter mine, that way I Know the new owner is a lovely pet owner, and I do take the stress from them, and hopefully can lower the population somewhat by doing this.

My vet said 'we need more vets like you, but you arent the ones we want to stop breeding, its the BYB and other owners who let their cats out to get pregnant, we need to get Them to neuter. but how do we do it?' I said I didnt have the answer


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> lol your moving to all of our way of thinking now lol! 12weeks is still good, they recover so quick, then that depends on when your vacs are done, to when they can leave, we do ours kinda inbetween, so it doesnt clash and they still get time to settle, but they are so outgoing and confident that they dont even need the extra time.
> 
> Yes i am!! lol
> As you said it takes the stress out of waiting for neutering proof, chasing people, that may have moved or don't bother to get back to you.
> ...


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm a slave and not a breeder  I'm very much for early neutering and spaying. I adopted my kitten from a rescue, he was neutered before he came home to me at 11 weeks old. If he hadn't already been neutered I would have looked for a vet that would have done it early  

I know that my own vet doesn't neuter/spay early as when I registered Seb and went for his check up and second vaccs they were shocked that he's been done at such an early age, they said it should be done around 6 months old.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lisa306 said:


> Taylorbaby said:
> 
> 
> > lol your moving to all of our way of thinking now lol! 12weeks is still good, they recover so quick, then that depends on when your vacs are done, to when they can leave, we do ours kinda inbetween, so it doesnt clash and they still get time to settle, but they are so outgoing and confident that they dont even need the extra time.
> ...


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## Danielle F (Apr 20, 2011)

If I ever have anymore cats (which is very very probable) I will definitely have them neutered/spayed as early as possible.

My boy was neutered at 6 months and although he recovered fairly quickly, my girl who was spayed at 2 years old took a long time to recover. It was horrible seeing her so uncomfortable and unhappy and I could never see one of my animals go through it again.


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## izzyc (Dec 18, 2011)

lisa306 said:


> I found one vets, not too far from me that neuters at 12 weeks, so i will be making an appointment soon to talk to the vet in more detail.
> The more vets that say 6 months, makes me think, why? is the risk higher, if NOT then why do more vets not neuter early!!!


The risk is from the anaesthetic - the younger a kitten is, the less it weighs and so the less anaesthetic it needs. Anaesthesia slows down respiration, so if a kitten recieves too much it may cause breathing to slow down to the point that the kitten does not have enough oxygen. There can also be a danger from hypothermia.

However... Vets are better now at giving the correct amount of anaesthetic and are vigilant about watching the kitten's breathing since it is a known risk.

So is there a risk when a younger kitten is aneaesthetised? Yes. But veterinary science is moving on all the time and the risk is being minimised as much as possible.

One of my cats is now 8 months old; she was spayed at 4 months. I am much less worried about young kittens being spayed/neutered early than I am about irresponsible owners failing to neuter/spay later on.

As I said my views come from my involvement in rescue, so I am pretty opinionated about it!!


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## Lunaowen (Jan 8, 2012)

Hi I need some advice. 
I have a kitten who is definately being neuteured. Can you please tell me the youngest they can get pregnant at in other words what is age they have first season? She comes outside with me at moment and when I can keep an eye on her but I still get bit anxious if I can't see her.
Vet said youngest they will do her is 5 Months. 
Want to do it at best age for her so not in to much pain etc as I am dreading it.
Also how long would you reccomend I am at home with her is it the longer the better. Trying to plan best time.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

She can get pregnant at 5 months. It usually causes very little pain - my female bolted out of her carrier for a quick round of the wall of death and a hearty meal when I brought her home. She had a tiny incision about 1/2 inch long. And she should be over it by the next day. The vet will tell you what time the day before is the latest you can feed her - usually 10pm. You take up all food and water at that time. You take her along early - maybe 8am - they do these operations early, you collect her late afternoon. Timings vary a bit, you have to get the times to stave from, deliver and collect from your vet but that's usually how it goes.

She can get pregnant at or even before 5 months, and the lengthening days often bring cats into call, but the vet will happily spay her anyway in the early stages.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

On average cats come into season at 9 months-ish - a lot after that and some before. It is quite unusual for a 4 or 5 months old to come into call and therefore get pregnant. If you are worried don't take her outside until she has been spayed, you will know when she is in call - as she will miaow loudly,stick her bum in the air and flirt with inanimate objects. If she does this definitely keep her inside. Occasionally cats have silent calls so still be watchful.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> She can get pregnant at or even before 5 months, and the lengthening days often bring cats into call, but the vet will happily spay her anyway in the early stages


It's hardly a perfect solution though is it? There's something a bit off to me about a vet refusing to neuter at 4-5 months but then 'happily' undertaking a more risky procedure a month later because of an avoidable pregnancy. I really can't understand their thinking.


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## Ingrid25 (Oct 1, 2011)

we live is aus, and leo was netured at 11 weeks, all fine- i even got him 2 days later, fully recovered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i think early neutering is best- because you seriously dont know if they say 'yes we will spay/neauter him/her' but they dont and byb with them without u knowing


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Lunaowen said:


> Hi I need some advice.
> I have a kitten who is definately being neuteured. Can you please tell me the youngest they can get pregnant at in other words what is age they have first season? She comes outside with me at moment and when I can keep an eye on her but I still get bit anxious if I can't see her.
> Vet said youngest they will do her is 5 Months.
> Want to do it at best age for her so not in to much pain etc as I am dreading it.
> Also how long would you reccomend I am at home with her is it the longer the better. Trying to plan best time.


she can become pregnant now, its actually not that un-common for themt o call earlier, but I think most are normally neutered by then so we dont know, but my vet was neutering pregnant 4 month old kittens in japan, hence why he is SO passionate about early neutering.

And I certainly wouldnt let her outside with you or not, you blink of a eye and shes over the fence, happens all the time, wont be the first or last. she can be neutered now, read the neutering thread above, the earlier its done the quicker the recovery, a 1mm incision and back up again playing the same day


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Taylorbaby said:


> <snip>
> a 1mm incision
> <snip>


Wow - the smallest keyhole in surgery!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> Wow - the smallest keyhole in surgery!


I dont understand what you mean, read my thread in the neutering thread with pictures, of the 1MM incision


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

1mm is about the diameter of a darning needle.

1cm is just under 1/2 inch - the width of a woman's thumb or thereabouts.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Thanks for the length lesson, but its not needed  I know what half a inch is, as the kittens incision isnt ahalf a inch, Ive spoke to the vet doing it and seen what they do it with, and had many kittens have it done now and seen it for myself  just look at the pictures, the 6 month old had half inch incssions, my babies have literally none at 10 weeks


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I spent ages and couldn't find the photos. Can you post them again please?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

OrientalSlave said:


> I spent ages and couldn't find the photos. Can you post them again please?


they are in the neutering sticky on here 

and my mistake, just checked my paperwork its Half 1*CM* which = 5MM for the 10week olds, ill update it now


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> just checked my paperwork its 1CM which = 5MM


Isn't 1cm made up of 10mm?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Isn't 1cm made up of 10mm?


Oh, I'm laughing! It's just as well there are no men in on this size discussion or we'd be more confused than we are already.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

sorry missed out the *half* 1CM = 5mm

ill get it right in a minute!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

So how do the rest of you balance the cost of neutering against the kitten price and still remain competative? I know what I do, but am interested in the way the rest of you manage it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> So how do the rest of you balance the cost of neutering against the kitten price and still remain competative?


Having seen a post recently where someone quoted the cost of a spay at £145 there's no way I could afford to do it at that price. At more normal costs it would mean adding about £50 onto the price of a kitten and that would simply put my price at the top end of what is being charged for my breed anyway. I think the main point is that I've never attempted to make money out of my hobby - it wouldn't be a hobby then it would be a business and that isn't my aim. It costs me money to be a good breeder and I expect it to do so.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Oh, I wasn't contesting that at all. I'm interested purely for academic reasons. after all, if you don't sell kittens, you can't continue to breed, so you've got to remain at least competitive enough to find kittens new homes.

I fully expect breeding to cost money. Just as well really, as it's not uncommon to run at a horrendous loss! For new breeders though, factoring in an extra £50 per kitten if they can't manage to make that back in the price of the kitten sale is quite a consideration. Even on a modest sized litter that's into the hundreds.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It depends on what your breed fetches. Assuming the average £400 which I currently charge, I wouldn't be out of line with the top end by charging £450 or £475. To be perfectly honest, for my buyers the price probably isn't the main consideration. I'm lucky in that most come to me on recommendation so as long as I wasn't charging outrageously more than other breeders it wouldn't be an important factor.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Even on a modest sized litter that's into the hundreds


Yes it is but then so are vaccinations so you need money in the bank to breed and imagine a c-section from which you get no surviving kittens. I know it sounds dramatic but anyone considering breeding should be prepared (and able) to lose around a thousand pounds. Luckily it doesn't often happen but it can. The stories on here about people fighting to get back deposits show exactly what happens when breeders can't really afford all the expenses up front and use deposits to fund vaccinations or other costs then something goes wrong. It's a story I hear all too often.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

havoc said:


> Yes it is but then so are vaccinations so you need money in the bank to breed and imagine a c-section from which you get no surviving kittens. I know it sounds dramatic but anyone considering breeding should be prepared (and able) to lose around a thousand pounds. Luckily it doesn't often happen but it can. The stories on here about people fighting to get back deposits show exactly what happens when breeders can't really afford all the expenses up front and use deposits to fund vaccinations or other costs then something goes wrong. It's a story I hear all too often.


Absolutely right. I think a lot of folks who don't breed think that it's a good money spinner as pedigrees are expensive on the face of it, and I think a few new breeders don't really think past the costs of buying their first breeding queen and are certain that the kitten sales will cover the costs of raising, caring for and feeding a litter. And they're right, but only if you have a big litter and no health problems with mum or babies, and don't we all wish we could have more of those types of kittenings!

£1000 is a fair estimate. I put that aside for every litter I plan, and if I have any left by the end of it, I'm happy. Just as well if my first litter's anything to go by.


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## Lunaowen (Jan 8, 2012)

Thank you for all the advice. Will speak to vet and get a date sorted to get Luna spayed. She does come out with me but will only stay in our garden which is very secure and If I am out the front she does sit with me on the step but she is scared of any noises so won't go any further.
I am hoping she stays that way even after being Spayed but i'm sure she will start venturing out one day. Think I will always stick to only letting her out when we are around unlike the cat we had years ago who used to stay out all day and only come in of an evening.
Thanks again to everyone


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I would most definitely prefer to get an already neutered/spayed kitten.


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## lisa306 (Oct 3, 2010)

Thanks for everyones replys...
After careful consideration, I have decided none of my kittens will leave me without being neutered/spayed, unless on active reg to selected homes.
I did have a strange call from someone wanting a kitten (not that i have any)
Asking how much they would be, when i said a price and that would include neutering vac's ect they said 
"but i don't want it neutered"
"Why does it have to be neutered?"
I must admit i was taken by surprise and didn't quite know what to say.

I have my 1st kittens due on the 17th april


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

As a pet owner I would much rather my cats be spayed/neutered before they came home with me so I wouldnt have to go through the worry myself..

I would expect to pay the price of a kitten pre "done" plus the cost of the operation...I suppose the longer the kitten stays with the breeder the more you pay but providing it wasnt insane and was roughly the amount I would spend anyway then I would be happy.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lisa306 said:


> Thanks for everyones replys...
> After careful consideration, I have decided none of my kittens will leave me without being neutered/spayed, unless on active reg to selected homes.
> I did have a strange call from someone wanting a kitten (not that i have any)
> Asking how much they would be, when i said a price and that would include neutering vac's ect they said
> ...


lol I had the same email last year, 'I want a girl cat ONLY and dont want to neuter it, but dont want to breed it either...' hmmm really!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

What you say is that it gets neutered so that it doesn't contract pyo, doesn't yowl, doesn't spray, doesn't get aggressive etc. Next time someone asks this, ask yourself why you're having them neutered hunn, and then give them those reasons.


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