# HELP poss pts :-(



## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

I have previously posted about our increasingly aggressive (but beloved). We very reluctantly arranged to have Oscar rehomed with a family members friend because of various serious aggression incidents with myself and OH. We also have a toddler in the house. This was not before a horrendous incident on fri night where he went for both of us and we had to take our little boy out of the house, leave our house wide open all night (could have been SOO much worse!). Yesterday he went to the family members house to allow gradual introduction to his wife and son. Today his new owner went round, oscar was great and they decide to just put oscar in his van to take to the new home. I would have catergorically advised against this as we have had car aggression with him before. As soon as he went in the van no one could get near, he was trying to attack anyone who went near (the level of aggression is incredible). My OH had to drive over (30 mins) and there was a 1.5 hour stand off before he eventually went in the house. Needless to say its kind of put the new owner off and its made us wonder if they would be able to manage him at all, it almost seems irresponsible for us to allow it to happen although they are willing to take him. The family member has been locked out of his kitchen all day because Oscar is going for him and not getting over his red mist. There is now talk of having him PTS and evben calling the vet out if we are unable to calm him. If he was a human I swear it would be a mental illness such as schizophrenia. Please, what would you do? Could he ever be rehomed? I just dont think its fair to sign him off. Im in turmoil xx


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I have previously posted about our increasingly aggressive (but beloved). We very reluctantly arranged to have Oscar rehomed with a family members friend because of various serious aggression incidents with myself and OH. We also have a toddler in the house. This was not before a horrendous incident on fri night where he went for both of us and we had to take our little boy out of the house, leave our house wide open all night (could have been SOO much worse!). Yesterday he went to the family members house to allow gradual introduction to his wife and son. Today his new owner went round, oscar was great and they decide to just put oscar in his van to take to the new home. I would have catergorically advised against this as we have had car aggression with him before. As soon as he went in the van no one could get near, he was trying to attack anyone who went near (the level of aggression is incredible). My OH had to drive over (30 mins) and there was a 1.5 hour stand off before he eventually went in the house. Needless to say its kind of put the new owner off and its made us wonder if they would be able to manage him at all, it almost seems irresponsible for us to allow it to happen although they are willing to take him. The family member has been locked out of his kitchen all day because Oscar is going for him and not getting over his red mist. There is now talk of having him PTS and evben calling the vet out if we are unable to calm him. If he was a human I swear it would be a mental illness such as schizophrenia. Please, what would you do? Could he ever be rehomed? I just dont think its fair to sign him off. Im in turmoil xx


What breed is oscar?


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

It sounds to me like he needs to be rehomed with an extremely experienced owner who has dealt with dogs that have serious behaviour issues before. He shouldn't be rehomed with anyone less. Maybe you should contact a rescue and see what they say. However if he is dangerous, then i'd be a little concerned about the safety of anyone who'll be getting involved.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Has he been checked by a vet to rule out injury etc?


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

I'd take him to the vet and get a full range of blood work done. Have them check everything. This might help shed light if he has something medically wrong. The way you describe his eyes glazing over sounds like possible Cocker Rage. I've only ever seen two cases of this in my lifetime and it is like their eyes glaze over. I would contact Cocker Spaniel Rescue and speak to them. He needs to go to a home where the people are experienced in dealing with cases like this.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

From the limited information I have available to me - it sounds like very serious aggression issues - I personally would not feel comfortable rehoming him and risk someone else being attacked.
He sounds like an extremely stressed dog - personally I think I would have to make the difficult decision to PTS.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

I would contact a rescue immediately. This situation is not safe for the people involved or the dog.

He needs to handled and dealt with by experienced dog handlers who know what they are doing and can reduce stress to him. They will know what methods to use, they know about body language and will know how to deal with this. 

They will asses him at rescue and then decide what is best. They will look at his assesment carefully and decide whether to try and correct his behaviour or whether pts is the best option. They will also get him examined by a vet to see if there are any medical issues.

You can not deal with a dog which is displaying this behaviour, you will make it 10x worse unfortunately without even realising. He is most likely extremely stressed and needs something done. Do not deal with him yourself, you will get hurt or he will end up hurt, experienced handlers is needed. 

What breed/age is he? 

Please contact a rescue ASAP, i can garantee one will take him in and asses him.


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## theothersparticus (Jan 8, 2012)

In your last post you had booked him to see the vet, did they say anything and could they suggest any reason for the behaviour?


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Well... you could have him go to a rescue and they asses him and there is still the posibility that they deem him unhomable and then he is pts in strange surroundings with no one he knows.

Or you take him to the vet for the full works to rule out any health problems and speak to a behaviourist.

Personally I think rehoming him was a bit dangerous and irresponsible especially after him going for you and your OH - you are just passing on a problem.

If you do not want him in the house for the sake of your child then let someone who knows what they are doing deal with him ie a breed rescue.

But you have to ask yourself this question..... how many people would want to rehome a dog with aggression problems, when there are hundreds and hundreds of other dogs out there to adopt without serious problems?


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> What breed is oscar?


Cocker Spaniel


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

what a horrible sutuation to be in ...do have a read on this link

http://www.btneuro.org/?page_id=60


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Has he been checked by a vet to rule out injury etc?


Yes he has, the vet said there was no apparent thyroid issue or anything else. Simply recommended us to a behaviourist which is the road we were going down before it escalated. We have had behaviourists before which didnt really have any effect


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Fleur said:


> From the limited information I have available to me - it sounds like very serious aggression issues - I personally would not feel comfortable rehoming him and risk someone else being attacked.
> He sounds like an extremely stressed dog - personally I think I would have to make the difficult decision to PTS.


i would be that same, as hard as it is


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Fleur said:


> From the limited information I have available to me - it sounds like very serious aggression issues - I personally would not feel comfortable rehoming him and risk someone else being attacked.
> He sounds like an extremely stressed dog - personally I think I would have to make the difficult decision to PTS.


I never thought i would agree with you but right now I cant see any other option. I would say it was cocker rage but the 'red mist' is prolonged. Its been 9 hours now and we have just had a call to say he is exactly the same. I have visions of having to call the vet in the morn to have him sedated... :,-(


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

carlycl said:


> We have had behaviourists before which didnt really have any effect


If a behaviourist, someone who has studied to deal with this sort of thing, can't help.... what made you think someone else could? 

you obviously love this dog but you have to think about the safety of others too... I mean what if you gave him to someone and he badly injured them... if that happened to me I would never stop feeling guilty about it.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> Please contact a rescue ASAP, i can garantee one will take him in and asses him.


Our rescue would probably not take him - If he is that bad that you have had to leave the house and other such incidents as you describe ... the reasons are

a) he would be very hard to rehome and would probably spend an awful long time in kennels which he may find stressful and not find a home - is that what you would want for your dog?
b) it would be a huge responsiblity to rehome him safely and to someone with the right experience and ensuring no one else is put at risk, homes for aggressive dogs are not very easy to come by.

If he is that unmanagable and aggressive it would not be fair to pass the problem onto a rescue - although you know yourself whether you think would be safe to rehome. Then speak to a properly qualified behaviorist and if all else failed would have to reach the tragic conclusion that he may be happier PTS if there are no other options for him.

Its not that we don't help dogs in need but we also have to think what is safe to our prospective homes, how much rehab would could be done and most important what is best for the dogs - if he had to be PTS better with his loving family around him.

Obviously its hard to advise on such stuff over the net and you know your dog and may have checked out these routes, but def would think vets and behaviourist... at least then you will have known tried as much as you could.

My advise would be to check out anything medically related,


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> I would contact a rescue immediately. This situation is not safe for the people involved or the dog.
> 
> He needs to handled and dealt with by experienced dog handlers who know what they are doing and can reduce stress to him. They will know what methods to use, they know about body language and will know how to deal with this.
> 
> ...


He is 4 years and a cocker spaniel. I will have to make a few calls in the morn, I just dont know how we can get him in the car and to the rescue without someone getting hurt


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## springerpete (Jun 24, 2010)

I love my dogs, but if any one of them showed the level of aggresion you describe I'd have no choice but to have it pts. I just couldn't live with the thought that a dog of mine might hurt someone.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

carlycl said:


> I never thought i would agree with you but right now I cant see any other option. I would say it was cocker rage but the 'red mist' is prolonged. Its been 9 hours now and we have just had a call to say he is exactly the same. I have visions of having to call the vet in the morn to have him sedated... :,-(


the poor boy...I feel for you but, i so feel for him , he must be so so stressed to behave this way , tbh.. it cannot continue, sometimes its hard to be cruel to be kind xx.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

My friends Female Show Cocker was diagnosed with Rage Syndrome at approx 4 years old.
She would get a glazed look in her eyes and would just 'go' for someone without any apparent provication 
The Vet recommended PTS - she would come out of her rages looking confused, panting and extremely stressed.
She was a danger to my friend who she doted on normally - it was such a hard decision, but it was for the best.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I never thought i would agree with you but right now I cant see any other option. I would say it was cocker rage but the 'red mist' is prolonged. Its been 9 hours now and we have just had a call to say he is exactly the same. I have visions of having to call the vet in the morn to have him sedated... :,-(


It was very silly to pass him on to someone else, he needs experienced handling and assessing, that it was rescues do on a day to day basis. Im sorry but you can not leave a dog in this situation expecting it to go away, either call the vet or a rescue because its not fair on the dog.

My rescue would 100% take him, they would asses and then look at the options. We have never not been able to get near a dog, there is always a way with certain methods, tools, but you need someone experienced to deal with this now or someone will get hurt.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I never thought i would agree with you but right now I cant see any other option. I would say it was cocker rage but the 'red mist' is prolonged. Its been 9 hours now and we have just had a call to say he is exactly the same. I have visions of having to call the vet in the morn to have him sedated... :,-(


Are you in the UK? If so where?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> He is 4 years and a cocker spaniel. I will have to make a few calls in the morn, I just dont know how we can get him in the car and to the rescue without someone getting hurt


The rescue will more than likely come to you, they will be able to take him as they have various methods and tools to deal with these situations.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

What do you think will happen to him at a rescue? Is it fair to pass on a dog with this level of aggression to them - if you can't even get in a room in the house or the car, do you think seriously he should be rehomed, if you are questioning on how you could even get him there?

It sounds a heartbreaking scenario all round but do you think he is happy and there is a fix out there?

Sorry hadn't realised in earlier posts that had seen vet etc, and don't know the full history.


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

springerpete said:


> I love my dogs, but if any one of them showed the level of aggresion you describe I'd have no choice but to have it pts. I just couldn't live with the thought that a dog of mine might hurt someone.


I have to say I agree really.. I couldn't imagine making the decision to have a dog that you love pts, but there is something clearly wrong. I think you should contact some rescues and see what they say. They might recomend a second opinion from another vet. However if there is no medical problem, then this is a really serious issue and you have a dangerous dog. As much as you love him, you need to consider the safety of others.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> What do you think will happen to him at a rescue? Is it fair to pass on a dog with this level of aggression to them - if you can't even get in a room in the house or the car, do you think seriously he should be rehomed, if you are questioning on how you could even get him there?
> 
> It sounds a heartbreaking scenario all round but do you think he is happy and there is a fix out there?
> 
> Sorry hadn't realised in earlier posts that had seen vet etc, and don't know the full history.


Every dog deserves a chance. He deserves a chance with people who are qualified, experienced and able to handle him.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

carlycl said:


> I have previously posted about our increasingly aggressive (but beloved). We very reluctantly arranged to have Oscar rehomed with a family members friend because of various serious aggression incidents with myself and OH. We also have a toddler in the house. This was not before a horrendous incident on fri night where he went for both of us and we had to take our little boy out of the house, leave our house wide open all night (could have been SOO much worse!). Yesterday he went to the family members house to allow gradual introduction to his wife and son. Today his new owner went round, oscar was great and they decide to just put oscar in his van to take to the new home. I would have catergorically advised against this as we have had car aggression with him before. As soon as he went in the van no one could get near, he was trying to attack anyone who went near (the level of aggression is incredible). My OH had to drive over (30 mins) and there was a 1.5 hour stand off before he eventually went in the house. Needless to say its kind of put the new owner off and its made us wonder if they would be able to manage him at all, it almost seems irresponsible for us to allow it to happen although they are willing to take him. The family member has been locked out of his kitchen all day because Oscar is going for him and not getting over his red mist. There is now talk of having him PTS and evben calling the vet out if we are unable to calm him. If he was a human I swear it would be a mental illness such as schizophrenia. Please, what would you do? Could he ever be rehomed? I just dont think its fair to sign him off. Im in turmoil xx


What on earth were you thinking of passing him on to someone else. I don't know the history, but if he had reached the stage where you had to leave the house it was highly irresponsible to rehome him with someone else.
He is obviously seriously disturbed and not a happy dog. The kindest thing and the responsible thing would be to pts. But this is YOUR responsibility and you should not be passing it off to someone else.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> What do you think will happen to him at a rescue? Is it fair to pass on a dog with this level of aggression to them - if you can't even get in a room in the house or the car, do you think seriously he should be rehomed, if you are questioning on how you could even get him there?
> 
> It sounds a heartbreaking scenario all round but do you think he is happy and there is a fix out there?
> 
> Sorry hadn't realised in earlier posts that had seen vet etc, and don't know the full history.


There are people at rescues who deal with situations like this on a daily basis. They are experienced and qualified to handle dangerous dogs. Most will also come and collect the dogs.

They may not rehome but can assess his behaviour and have another vets opinion. Then decide if it can be corrected, if so what home will be suitable etc.

It could turn out to stem from a very simple reason but needing experience and rehabilitation.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Are you in the UK? If so where?[/QUOTE
> 
> I am based in Middlesbough but Oscar is currently in Sunderland. Maybe I havent gone about things the right way, but I think Oscars worst nightmare would be stuck in a cage every night. I absolutely adore this dog, it has broken my heart and tbh we have risked our safety persevering in trying to rehabillitate him to no avail. 99% of the time he is perfect, he gets walked twice a day and is very much part of the family. I really do appreciate everyones input, thankyou C x


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> Every dog deserves a chance. He deserves a chance with people who are qualified, experienced and able to handle him.


Every dog deserves a chance but there would be very few homes out there who would be experienced enough to take this dog on - if he is that aggressive his own family cannot stay in the house with him, sometimes PTS is the kinder options - also I don't think many rescues would take him on - we would not rehome a dog that aggressive...

We get dogs through the rescue that have had similar problems and the owners haven't done the right thing and slung them out, we have spend alot on diagnostic vets fees, dog has spend months in kennels and sometimes someone gets bitten badly and dog ends up PTS anyway....

Afraid agree with Rocco


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> SpringerLex said:
> 
> 
> > Are you in the UK? If so where?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Every dog deserves a chance. He deserves a chance with people who are qualified, experienced and able to handle him.


TBH so many people talk about passing him to someone who specialises in aggressive dogs but in reality who would take him? In a dream world, one of theses 'specialists' would rehome him, work with him and reap the rewards but I just dont know if that is possible


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> SpringerLex said:
> 
> 
> > Are you in the UK? If so where?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> carlycl said:
> 
> 
> > If hes perfect 99% of the time im pretty sure something can be done, medically or behavioural. Contact a rescue and they will help you, honestly they will, people are trained to deal with dogs like this for their job.
> ...


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> Every dog deserves a chance but there would be very few homes out there who would be experienced enough to take this dog on - if he is that aggressive his own family cannot stay in the house with him, sometimes PTS is the kinder options - also I don't think many rescues would take him on - we would not rehome a dog that aggressive...
> 
> We get dogs through the rescue that have had similar problems and the owners haven't done the right thing and slung them out, we have spend alot on diagnostic vets fees, dog has spend months in kennels and sometimes someone gets bitten badly and dog ends up PTS anyway....
> 
> Afraid agree with Rocco


The dog may not be in the right home, some dogs need certain homes with people who know about behaviour, and can work on the problem. Also it can be a simple reason he is reacting like this. No dog should be pts without a proper assesment as normally its down to the wrong home and a simple reason whether medically or behaviour.

Of course his family wont want to stay in the house, they are not experienced in dealing with aggressive dogs? and the dog knows this, therefore likely taking advantage. Most good rescues dont keep dogs in kennels for months, if they cant be rehomed they get pts as this is fairer than the dog laying in a kennel.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Rage Syndrome is very often mis-diagnosed and is often not fully understood by vets. Sometimes the label is wrongly applied to explain extreme aggression. It is however, a very real condition and is dangerous and untreatable. Whether this dog has rage syndrome, I don't know, but it is a good possibility from what has been said by the OP. 
In any event, with this level of aggression, the dog should not be rehomed, unless to a breed specific rescue.
IMO there are only 2 options here. Assessment by a breed specific rescue, (who may well then PTS), or the owner takes the responsibility to PTS. 
The poor dog cannot continue to be a danger, and should not be passed on to anyone else.
Sorry but that is my opinion. I do believe that all dogs deserve a chance, but not all dogs can be saved.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> carlycl said:
> 
> 
> > If hes perfect 99% of the time im pretty sure something can be done, medically or behavioural. Contact a rescue and they will help you, honestly they will, people are trained to deal with dogs like this for their job.
> ...


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> TBH so many people talk about passing him to someone who specialises in aggressive dogs but in reality who would take him? In a dream world, one of theses 'specialists' would rehome him, work with him and reap the rewards but I just dont know if that is possible


You dont know untill you contact them. People do know what they are doing, they dont just pass dogs on in rescue, they have guidelines.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> carlycl said:
> 
> 
> > Twice a day? For a Cocker Spaniel? This isn't enough. My Springers are walked four and five times a day. We're out running around, playing ball. He needs mental stimulation. He is a working dog, he needs to be stimulated or else they go stir crazy. Fair enough, you didn't handle the situation in the best way, but now is your chance to do what is right for him. Contact a rescue and ask them to come and collect him. If I were close I'd come and get him. But I'm in Scotland. There are people out there who can help.
> ...


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Unless a specialist rescue is willing to take him on then I would PTS.

If one of my dogs became this aggressive there is no way I would ever pass them onto another home. It's like handing someone a ticking time bomb and sitting back waiting for it to go off. I wouldn't hand off one of mine to a rescue if they were as aggressive as you say Oscar is. I just wouldn't take the risk with other people's safety.

I think you need to go and get Oscar back and take him to the vet to be sedated immediately. Once this done if you can't get a specialised rescue then the only safe option is to have him put to sleep. He can't be having a happy life with this aggression issue.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> hayleyth said:
> 
> 
> > I've been involved with quite a few rescues over the years and I don't know one that would take on a dog displaying this behaviour.
> ...


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Its a horribe situation but also got to think of your boy... he may be in pain or I don't know what... you have to think about whats best for him and who you would be sending him to rescue for -and whats best for him.

Its hard as well have had dogs in that have been really aggressive in kennels could not get near them but as soon as open the door they were fine...

What tests did the vets do and and what did the behaviourst think was the cause of the behaviour?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> SpringerLex said:
> 
> 
> > He gets lots of mental stimulation. He is very obedient in many respects and we do lots of exercises / activity with him. Even when he isnt walking, myself and son would play with him in the garden. We have tried a couple of rescues and they wont take him. The dogs trust said pts may be the best option (i know many people dont rate DT :-(
> ...


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Where is your rescue Hayley is that an option?

I rate the DT, I have always had good experiences with them.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> carlycl said:
> 
> 
> > You say you cant get near him but then say hes fine 99% of the time ? and let your son play in the garden with him and walk him etc? And you really dont think a rescue can deal with him...
> ...


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> hayleyth said:
> 
> 
> > well......could you not talk to your rescue and offer help?
> ...


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Off topic - But there seems to be a error with the quoting of people in this thread. It is most confusing.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Attack Mode said:


> Off topic - But there seems to be a error with the quoting of people in this thread. It is most confusing.


it is ...lol.. just ignore the name...lol..


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Off topic - But there seems to be a error with the quoting of people in this thread. It is most confusing.


I know, im confused!


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> paddyjulie said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, if the OP is agreeing to rescue. But tbh i am slightly confused with the story.
> ...


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I have interpreted it that when he is OK he is OK, but has moments when he goes into aggressive /rage for want of a better word then you cannot get near him - and between times he is lovely but the aggressive incidencts are getting worse/more frequent/ lasting longer?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> hayleyth said:
> 
> 
> > Why?
> ...


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

How weird. Quoting me worked correctly, but quoting others didn't.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> carlycl said:
> 
> 
> > You say you cant get near him but then say hes fine 99% of the time ? and let your son play in the garden with him and walk him etc? And you really dont think a rescue can deal with him...
> ...


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

carlycl said:


> hayleyth said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, we cant get near him. He has fits of anger, some seemingly unprovoked. Tomorrow he may be fine. The problem has escalated severly in the last 2 weeks, in that time my son hasnt been put at risk. I didnt say a rescue couldnt deal with him, I dont know if they could. I havent been in this situation before and dont know enough about rescue centres. I know he isnt in the right home now. We have tried, weve spent hundreds of pounds with behaviourists, vets etc and have also been very regimental with the advice we were given. I came to this forum for help, in a very distressing time. Yes agreed I may not have managed things right, but I have never been in this situation, I am not an expert and nor did I expect to have a dog that I absolutely adore but yet has bitten me and pretty much not allowed us to have anyone other than family into our home. The advice on here is very conflicting. Right now Im in a very desperate state and I will phone rescues in the morning to save my beautiful boy. Please dont call me irresponsible, I am trying to do right by everyone concerned including Oscar
> ...


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> paddyjulie said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, if the OP is agreeing to rescue. But tbh i am slightly confused with the story.
> ...


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> I have interpreted it that when he is OK he is OK, but has moments when he goes into aggressive /rage for want of a better word then you cannot get near him - and between times he is lovely but the aggressive incidencts are getting worse/more frequent/ lasting longer?


This is a perfect summary


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't think you irresponsible, just someone who is at their wits end with knowing what to do to help their beloved dog.

You will get conflicting advise on such an issue as we will all come at it from different aspects and experiences - at the end of the day it may give you a new angle on the situation, some opinions you will agree with some not, but with such a serios decision as this the decision needs to be made by you.

Has the vet seen him (or perhaps /you could take a video if you can to send to Hayley / your behaviourous if its safe -can then see him in action dunno if would help.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> hayleyth said:
> 
> 
> > May I ask what you are confused with? I do appreciate your input
> ...


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

paddyjulie said:


> carlycl said:
> 
> 
> > can i just give you a hug xxxxx
> ...


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> hayleyth said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, we cant get near him. He has fits of anger, some seemingly unprovoked. Tomorrow he may be fine. The problem has escalated severly in the last 2 weeks, in that time my son hasnt been put at risk. I didnt say a rescue couldnt deal with him, I dont know if they could. I havent been in this situation before and dont know enough about rescue centres. I know he isnt in the right home now. We have tried, weve spent hundreds of pounds with behaviourists, vets etc and have also been very regimental with the advice we were given. I came to this forum for help, in a very distressing time. Yes agreed I may not have managed things right, but I have never been in this situation, I am not an expert and nor did I expect to have a dog that I absolutely adore but yet has bitten me and pretty much not allowed us to have anyone other than family into our home. The advice on here is very conflicting. Right now Im in a very desperate state and I will phone rescues in the morning to save my beautiful boy. Please dont call me irresponsible, I am trying to do right by everyone concerned including Oscar
> ...


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

carlycl said:


> paddyjulie said:
> 
> 
> > Id give you one back but I may break down. I have tears in my eyes and mascara down to my chin ...
> ...


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I have experience with an aggressive dog but i would never pass him on to anyone else, yes he may not be aggressive to us but is to everyone else. I would seriously consider talking to hayleyth (sp) and see if she can help you and pupster out. 

If you have had a full check up at the vets then personally i think your choices are either rehome to a rescue with much more experienced people or PTS as hard as that is.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

OP ring rescues near you tomorrow and see if they can help. If not PM me and will help you, but you are quite far away so let me know x


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> carlycl said:
> 
> 
> > With all due respect you have been irresponsible. You have passed him onto another family and put them in danger. You stated in your first post to the forum that he had possession/aggression issues when he was a pup but you thought he would grow out of it. This should have been nipped in the bud from day one. You should never tolerate your dog being aggressive or possessive. This is why research should be done before getting a dog, particularly a working breed like a Cocker Spaniel. Yes he is a show type, but they are essentially cut from the same cloth. I have two show springers and they need a tonne of walking/working and stimulation. He should have been correctly socialised and trained as a pup. I am sorry to sound so harsh but now there is a question as to whether this poor animal will be PTS because it has not been taught any different and that really makes my blood boil.
> ...


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> OP ring rescues near you tomorrow and see if they can help. If not PM me and will help you, but you are quite far away so let me know x


Thanks Hayley, where are you? If I felt Oscar was going where he would get the help and a nice rescue centre I would travel. I will do anything for him x


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Thanks Hayley, where are you? If I felt Oscar was going where he would get the help and a nice rescue centre I would travel. I will do anything for him x


East anglia? Where abouts are you? Let me know if you can not get him into a rescue near you. I will ask my collegues if they know rescue near you what would take him. Must go soon as have work early in morn! Message me asap tomorrow if no luck. X


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> East anglia? Where abouts are you? Let me know if you can not get him into a rescue near you. I will ask my collegues if they know rescue near you what would take him. Must go soon as have work early in morn! Message me asap tomorrow if no luck. X


I will. The issue we are going to have is getting him in the car, so hopefully a rescue will come and help us. Thanks so much.

Ps Im near Middlesbrough, a rescue near Newcastle would be fine as he is currently in Sunderland


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

With all due respect, there are plenty of people with 'working dogs' that dont actually work them, but take them for good long walks twice a day. TBH, I think they have better loving lives than working dogs that are kept without much human contact other than when working.

I dont think there is much to gain in bashing the OP for what you think she may not have done right. She is clearly distressed and heartbroken, and in need of support in the difficult decision she has to make.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I will. The issue we are going to have is getting him in the car, so hopefully a rescue will come and help us. Thanks so much.
> 
> Ps Im near Middlesbrough, a rescue near Newcastle would be fine as he is currently in Sunderland


Ok i will ask around for you! Ring as many as you can find, im sure there will be one near you, and im sure they'll collect. Will speak tomorrow. X


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> With all due respect, there are plenty of people with 'working dogs' that dont actually work them, but take them for good long walks twice a day. TBH, I think they have better loving lives than working dogs that are kept without much human contact other than when working.
> 
> I dont think there is much to gain in bashing the OP for what you think she may not have done right. She is clearly distressed and heartbroken, and in need of support in the difficult decision she has to make.


I don't see anyone bashing the OP, just people trying to get the full story and give constructive criticism :confused1:


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Ok i will ask around for you! Ring as many as you can find, im sure there will be one near you, and im sure they'll collect. Will speak tomorrow. X


Thanks Hayley. My email is [email protected] if you have any joy, it would be hugely appreciated. I want anything other than my gorgeous boy being pts x


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

TBH ill take a bashing if it means I get the advice I need for my pooch. You couldnt make me feel and worse than I do :-(


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Thanks Hayley. My email is [email protected] if you have any joy, it would be hugely appreciated. I want anything other than my gorgeous boy being pts x


Ok great. When you ring make sure you explain everything, give as much detail as possible. He will definately benefit from an assesment and a experienced handler in aggressive/dangerous dogs. X


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

carlycl said:


> TBH ill take a bashing if it means I get the advice I need for my pooch. You couldnt make me feel and worse than I do :-(


'bashing' won't help though will it, people need the full story to help, but we all make mistakes, we learn and move on from them


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Did the vet tell you what the results were, they often class low normal as "normal" and in a young dog its not. If it was truly normal then other thing I would be thinking of is that he has some sort of neurological problem. One theory with cocker rage because they dont know the real cause is that it is a form of epilepsy or seizure, there is a type of partial seizure that only effects one part of the brain and that the part that deals with behaviour its known as a psycomotor seizure or behavioral seizure in fact, so feasible there is a link as they think.

A complex partial seizure will originate in the area of the brain that controls behavior and is sometimes called a psychomotor seizure. During this type of seizure, a dogs consciousness is altered and he may exhibit bizarre behavior such as unprovoked aggression or extreme irrational fear.

Complex Partial Seizures (a.k.a. Psychomotor or Behavioral Seizures) are associated with bizarre or complex behaviors that are repeated during each seizure. People with complex partial seizures experience distortions of thought, perception or emotion (usually fear), sometimes with unusual visual, olfactory, auditory and gustatory sensations. If dogs experience the same things, it may explain the lip-smacking, chewing, fly biting, aggression, vocalization, hysterical running, cowering or hiding, in otherwise normal animals. Vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal distress, salivation, blindness, unusual thirst or appetite, and flank biting are other signs. There is an obvious lack of awareness though usually not lack of consciousness. Abnormal behaviors may last minutes or hours and can be followed by a generalized seizure."
PSYCHOMOTOR SEIZURES

It could also be even a brain lesion or some kind of tumour that too can effect behaviour as can, problems with the liver due to toxin build ups, porto systemic shunt even.

You are then looking at neurological exams, liver bile acid tests and brain scans though, and you still have the problems the way he is of getting all the medical things done.

His behaviour though is excessive and extreme, and even though I usually say seek the help of breed rescues in all honesty I think your chances with this extreme unpredictable behaviour may be slim at best that someone may take him tbh.

Something is very wrong with this dog by the sounds of it and medical I think is the most likely explanation. Most dogs that are agressive tend to at least have triggers and the behaviour can be dealt with in one shape or form.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Im sorry to say that I would be having him pts  
Even if you found a rescue that would take him, if they cant get in the kitchen, how are they going to be able to wait for them to collect him. I would also feel that even though the rescue placed him in a home, that it would be my fault if someone got hurt for allowing him to have that chance.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> With all due respect, there are plenty of people with 'working dogs' that dont actually work them, but take them for good long walks twice a day. TBH, I think they have better loving lives than working dogs that are kept without much human contact other than when working.
> 
> I dont think there is much to gain in bashing the OP for what you think she may not have done right. She is clearly distressed and heartbroken, and in need of support in the difficult decision she has to make.


Well as someone who has six springer spaniels and does not shoot. I would say I am qualified to comment on how much exercise these types of dogs need. Two walks a day is not enough as far as I am concerned. I would be in a mental institution if I did that with mine as they would be climbing the walls. These dogs are bred to go all day working and when in a pet home they need as much exercise as they can get.

I do agility, I train my dogs in obedience myself and I am out constantly doing different activities with my dogs and there are some nights when they still want more. I am bashing the OP. I told them exactly what I thought. You cannot sugar coat a situation like this. The dog has been handed to another family and thank God has not injured anyone. This situation could have turned out a lot worse. I will say well done to the OP for asking for help and now it appears they are going to contact rescues so now everything should be focused on getting this dog the help it needs.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Well as someone who has six springer spaniels and does not shoot. I would say I am qualified to comment on how much exercise these types of dogs need. Two walks a day is not enough as far as I am concerned. I would be in a mental institution if I did that with mine as they would be climbing the walls. These dogs are bred to go all day working and when in a pet home they need as much exercise as they can get.
> 
> I do agility, I train my dogs in obedience myself and I am out constantly doing different activities with my dogs and there are some nights when they still want more. I am bashing the OP. I told them exactly what I thought. You cannot sugar coat a situation like this. The dog has been handed to another family and thank God has not injured anyone. This situation could have turned out a lot worse. I will say well done to the OP for asking for help and now it appears they are going to contact rescues so now everything should be focused on getting this dog the help it needs.


Agree, dogs from working lines do need more exercise. My show mab doesnt need near as much exercise as my working lab.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

pogo said:


> 'bashing' won't help though will it, people need the full story to help, but we all make mistakes, we learn and move on from them


We all make mistakes. I made a mistake with a collie I took on. She needed one to one attention and I couldn't give her that. But I found her a fantastic home and we go out walks together so she still sees her pack. It's hard...but honestly it is what is best for the dog.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> We all make mistakes. I made a mistake with a collie I took on. She needed one to one attention and I couldn't give her that. But I found her a fantastic home and we go out walks together so she still sees her pack. It's hard...but honestly it is what is best for the dog.


Thats what Im trying to do, whats best for him. Ive only ever had his best interests at heart and giving him 2 good walks a day I could only assume thats what most people with Cockers do. Unfortunately we both work (me only part time) so more than two walks a day would be difficult. Surely those who walk their dogs 3/4/5 times per day must not work?


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Agree, dogs from working lines do need more exercise. My show mab doesnt need near as much exercise as my working lab.


Swap you the show lab for my two show springers? Lol. They are both nuts...never stop when they are out and when they are in the house it's a snuggle contest to see who can get on Mums lap first. Usually ends up with me flat on my back with two Springers sitting on me looking very pleased with themselves. Lol. But when they go into undergrowth...oh god...the sticky willies and branches that I have to sit and pick out of their ears? I could save a rain forest with it!!


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Thats what Im trying to do, whats best for him. Ive only ever had his best interests at heart and giving him 2 good walks a day I could only assume thats what most people with Cockers do. Unfortunately we both work (me only part time) so more than two walks a day would be difficult. Surely those who walk their dogs 3/4/5 times per day must not work?


My labs get walked 3 times a day, GSD 2 sometimes 3, huskies about 1 sometimes 2. Huskies are out all day normally so they dont need alot of exercise. But they also all do hydro. Its hard but you have to adjust schedule and stuff. My labs would go mad if they didnt get there 3 walks off lead.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Well as someone who has six springer spaniels and does not shoot. I would say I am qualified to comment on how much exercise these types of dogs need. Two walks a day is not enough as far as I am concerned. I would be in a mental institution if I did that with mine as they would be climbing the walls. These dogs are bred to go all day working and when in a pet home they need as much exercise as they can get.
> 
> I do agility, I train my dogs in obedience myself and I am out constantly doing different activities with my dogs and there are some nights when they still want more. I am bashing the OP. I told them exactly what I thought. You cannot sugar coat a situation like this. The dog has been handed to another family and thank God has not injured anyone. This situation could have turned out a lot worse. I will say well done to the OP for asking for help and now it appears they are going to contact rescues so now everything should be focused on getting this dog the help it needs.


Maybe they need a lot of exercise, but Im sure that if you did a poll on all the spaniel owners, there wont be many that give the excercise youre giving. Im sure they do need more, but many just dont get it, nor do they turn as aggressive as the OP's dog due to lack of exercise. I therefore dont think this is a direct link to the cause dog's behaviour as there are many possibilities.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Ok yeah maybe he should have been walked more but he certainly hasnt been left everyday without any stimulation. Even when we werent walking him we were often doing activities/obedience and playing 'sniffer dog' (as the title describes!) all over the house. They werent short walks either my OH always measured the distance and they were generally 3 miles+


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Thats what Im trying to do, whats best for him. Ive only ever had his best interests at heart and giving him 2 good walks a day I could only assume thats what most people with Cockers do. Unfortunately we both work (me only part time) so more than two walks a day would be difficult. Surely those who walk their dogs 3/4/5 times per day must not work?


My dogs are walked in the morning for an hour or two, then at lunch time for another hour. Out again at about 4. We have agility on a Thursday so we stop off at an estate near the livery to run around before agility so the ones not taking part get some running around. Then I'll stop off at the estate on the way home from agility for another hour or so. When I was working they came to work with me.

I've been off work ill for a long while now. However, if it had not been for my dogs. The honest to Gods truth is I would not be here. Those dogs have kept me sane and I spend all my time with them. But that is my own personal choice. I know people who work and have high


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Thats what Im trying to do, whats best for him. Ive only ever had his best interests at heart and giving him 2 good walks a day I could only assume thats what most people with Cockers do. Unfortunately we both work (me only part time) so more than two walks a day would be difficult. Surely those who walk their dogs 3/4/5 times per day must not work?


My dogs are walked in the morning for an hour or two, then at lunch time for another hour. Out again at about 4. We have agility on a Thursday so we stop off at an estate near the livery to run around before agility so the ones not taking part get some running around. Then I'll stop off at the estate on the way home from agility for another hour or so. When I was working they came to work with me.

I've been off work ill for a long while now. However, if it had not been for my dogs. The honest to Gods truth is I would not be here. Those dogs have kept me sane and I spend all my time with them. But that is my own personal choice. I know people who work and have high exercise breeds and they sacrifice a lot to make sure their dogs get the exercise they need.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

I have a working springer. She does not get walked 4/5 times daily. Twice and sometimes only once. She is a very high energy working dog. The more exercise she gets, the more she needs. What these dogs need is brain work as well as exercise. It's wrong to say 2 walks a day is not enough. It may not be enough for some, it may be too much for others. They all have individual needs.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

lucylastic said:


> I have a working springer. She does not get walked 4/5 times daily. Twice and sometimes only once. She is a very high energy working dog. The more exercise she gets, the more she needs. What these dogs need is brain work as well as exercise. It's wrong to say 2 walks a day is not enough. It may not be enough for some, it may be too much for others. They all have individual needs.


Well I have six and they NEED more than two walks a day. Plus all the brain work they can get.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> My dogs are walked in the morning for an hour or two, then at lunch time for another hour. Out again at about 4. We have agility on a Thursday so we stop off at an estate near the livery to run around before agility so the ones not taking part get some running around. Then I'll stop off at the estate on the way home from agility for another hour or so. When I was working they came to work with me.
> 
> I've been off work ill for a long while now. However, if it had not been for my dogs. The honest to Gods truth is I would not be here. Those dogs have kept me sane and I spend all my time with them. But that is my own personal choice. I know people who work and have high exercise breeds and they sacrifice a lot to make sure their dogs get the exercise they need.


I completely respect you for the dedication you have to your dogs, they are very lucky. I would expect that you are an exception in this though, not many people could manage that, especially if off with ill health. They would also not have the option to take their pooches to work. We have done what we could manage, and having a toddler too its been a juggling act but one that we have loved because we adore our dog and I just wish we could continue. I honestly dont think Oscars behavioural issues are a reflection of this, we may have done things wrong at points but we have kept as informed as possible to try and make him a well rounded dog. I genuinely think this is something deep rooted, something neurological, which is what makes him completely unmanageable when he flips. If we could calm / manage him when he became aggressive we may have stood a chance in turning things around


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I completely respect you for the dedication you have to your dogs, they are very lucky. I would expect that you are an exception in this though, not many people could manage that, especially if off with ill health. They would also not have the option to take their pooches to work. We have done what we could manage, and having a toddler too its been a juggling act but one that we have loved because we adore our dog and I just wish we could continue. I honestly dont think Oscars behavioural issues are a reflection of this, we may have done things wrong at points but we have kept as informed as possible to try and make him a well rounded dog. I genuinely think this is something deep rooted, something neurological, which is what makes him completely unmanageable when he flips. If we could calm / manage him when he became aggressive we may have stood a chance in turning things around


You have done the right thing by talking to us on here. There are people here who have dealt with aggressive dogs and have advised you. You knew something needed to be done and didn't ignore it and that is amazing of you. Your dog is part of your family and you love him. There's no argument of that. The decision you have made is a very very hard one and not one made lightly. But you have done it for the safety of your family. Whatever happens, whether a rescue is able to help him or god forbid he does have to be pts. You DID do the right thing for him. Either way he will get the help he needs xx


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> The rescue will more than likely come to you, they will be able to take him as they have various methods and tools to deal with these situations.





hayleyth said:


> My rescue would 100% take him, they would asses and then look at the options. We have never not been able to get near a dog, there is always a way with certain methods, tools, but you need someone experienced to deal with this now or someone will get hurt.





hayleyth said:


> East anglia? Where abouts are you? Let me know if you can not get him into a rescue near you. I will ask my collegues if they know rescue near you what would take him. Must go soon as have work early in morn! Message me asap tomorrow if no luck. X





hayleyth said:


> Ok i will ask around for you! Ring as many as you can find, im sure there will be one near you, and im sure they'll collect. Will speak tomorrow. X


i think it`s really unfair asking the OP to do this , most rescues are already overflowing with dogs and most have waiting lists , it`s unrealistic asking the OP to put themselves in a position where they could still have this dog in a week or a months time - he needs sorting NOW and the only thing i can advise is to pts for everyones safety.
you`ve gone from saying your rescue would 100% take him , to ring round. they either can or can`t take him , if they can you need to discuss with the OP how long they are possibly going to have to wait before there is space for him.



carlycl said:


> The problem has escalated severly in the last 2 weeks, in that time my son hasnt been put at risk. I didnt say a rescue couldnt deal with him, I dont know if they could. I havent been in this situation before and dont know enough about rescue centres. I know he isnt in the right home now. We have tried, weve spent hundreds of pounds with behaviourists, vets etc and have also been very regimental with the advice we were given.


i think in light of the situation you have done everything you possibly can , getting veterinary advice and seeking help from behaviourists it`s fair to state sometimes rescues get it wrong , could you ever live not knowing what has happened to him , or where he`s ended up knowing the kind of dog you have on your hands right now ? 
i know i couldn`t. i think deep down you know what needs to be done.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> You have done the right thing by talking to us on here. There are people here who have dealt with aggressive dogs and have advised you. You knew something needed to be done and didn't ignore it and that is amazing of you. Your dog is part of your family and you love him. There's no argument of that. The decision you have made is a very very hard one and not one made lightly. But you have done it for the safety of your family. Whatever happens, whether a rescue is able to help him or god forbid he does have to be pts. You DID do the right thing for him. Either way he will get the help he needs xx


Thankyou. Im quite emotional and youve made me blub AGAIN with that. I have honestly never felt like this, I have dealt with bereavements in my family better than this. That dog was my world and my heart is broken into bits. Im frantically trying to get rescue numbers for in the morning to give him a chance, although the thought of him sat in miserable kennels makes my stomach turn. x


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## andrea84 (Aug 16, 2012)

hi, i have just read threw all comments and quotes about your problem and i think your so brave for putting it on here ,i really dont know what i would do in your situation.
did you manage to get your boy into a rescue or get help??? i hope so


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

andrea84 said:


> hi, i have just read threw all comments and quotes about your problem and i think your so brave for putting it on here ,i really dont know what i would do in your situation.
> did you manage to get your boy into a rescue or get help??? i hope so


Thankyou. I am brave because Im desperate for guidance, this is all new to me and Im trying to do the best thing for my gorgeous boy. I havent had the opportunity to sort a rescue as yet, I am going to call round in the morning. We did try the dogs trust but they wont take him. Unfortunately I seem to live in a part of the uk where there arent many aggreessive accepting rescues so I may need to travel. As it stands our original rehome wants to take him but Im not going to allow it. He needs professional help and I dont want to put anyone in a vunerable position with him x


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

Have you contacted his breeder?


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I think it is terribly unfair to give the poor woman false hope . I cannot see a rescue taking him in at all.


Op it is obvious that you love your dog and you have gone to every effort with regards to vets and behaviourists. Now pay your boy the last kindness and be with him for his final moments .


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Have you contacted his breeder?


No. The bitch (mother) owner, it was a one off for them and I doubt very much they would do anything. The father was a stud dog and the family clearly had more dogs than they could cope with when we went round after we had seen Oscar. I will call them too in the morning though..desperate times


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

First of all OP I am so sorry that you are in this situation.

If it were me, I would not be having him PTS. I would take him back and buy a kennel and run for him to live in for the the immediate future to make sure he is not a threat to people, but equally is also safe himself.

Once he is back in your care I would return to the vets for much more intrusive examinations/ tests to rule out any underlying medical conditions. If it does turn out to be something medical at least you have the knowledge in order to make an informed decision; can the condition be managed with medication, is it kinder to PTS, etc. After that, he will certainly need a *good* behaviourist to help him overcome these issues. You may have to use 2-3 or more behaviourists before you find one that is actually good at what they do, but please persevere. If your dog is insured then this should be covered, so you will only have to pay the excess on the policy.

I have seen aggressive dogs be rehabilitated and go on to lead normal, happy lives. It is possible, I'm not saying it will be easy but from your posts it seems you're willing to fight for your boy and put the effort in. Good luck and please keep in touch with the forum; it's a fabulous network of people who can and will help x


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

Grace_Lily said:


> First of all OP I am so sorry that you are in this situation.
> 
> If it were me, I would not be having him PTS. I would take him back and buy a kennel and run for him to live in for the the immediate future to make sure he is not a threat to people, but equally is also safe himself.
> 
> ...


Another suggestion is to go to your vets and see if there an animal hospital near you. I know at Glasgow University Small Animal Hospital, there is a resident behaviourist and she is fantastic. Although I think this could be a bit of a trek. See if there is a facility similar that you can be referred to. I am trying to find an animal hospital near you that you could go to.

I agree with what Grace_Lily but I know that a lot of insurers don't insure behavioural problems so double check your policy.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Grace_Lily said:


> First of all OP I am so sorry that you are in this situation.
> 
> If it were me, I would not be having him PTS. I would take him back and buy a kennel and run for him to live in for the the immediate future to make sure he is not a threat to people, but equally is also safe himself.
> 
> ...


This is not an option for us. Oscar can not be locked out of the house, he barks constantly and bites / scratches until he is back in. We have tried putting him outside in a gated section of our garden when we have had visitors. He chewed through the fence and proceeded to scratch at the door until he was back in, I couldnt put him through that distress. Because of the degree of escalation, I cant bring him back here with my 2.5 yr old I couldnt forgive myself if something happened. I want to fight but it has to involve a rehome because we have tried for 2 years to improve his behaviour and as I said, its worse than ever now. He bit me quite badly on my hand a year ago, which I put down to him being poorly as there was no apparent reason. Realistically, I should of looked to rehome him then. I would love for what you are advising to be an option to us, but I just cant bring him back here now, we have become prisoners in our own home and despite me trying not to be, I am nervous with him. If it was just the two of us, I would keep trying but I cant risk my toddler, he has to be priority in this. Really appreciate your input thankyou x


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> This is not an option for us. Oscar can not be locked out of the house, he barks constantly and bites / scratches until he is back in. We have tried putting him outside in a gated section of our garden when we have had visitors. He chewed through the fence and proceeded to scratch at the door until he was back in, I couldnt put him through that distress. Because of the degree of escalation, I cant bring him back here with my 2.5 yr old I couldnt forgive myself if something happened. I want to fight but it has to involve a rehome because we have tried for 2 years to improve his behaviour and as I said, its worse than ever now. He bit me quite badly on my hand a year ago, which I put down to him being poorly as there was no apparent reason. Realistically, I should of looked to rehome him then. I would love for what you are advising to be an option to us, but I just cant bring him back here now, we have become prisoners in our own home and despite me trying not to be, I am nervous with him. If it was just the two of us, I would keep trying but I cant risk my toddler, he has to be priority in this. Really appreciate your input thankyou x


I may have missed it somewhere throughout the thread. Has he always had this degree of aggression? Or is this level of aggression new?


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> This is not an option for us. Oscar can not be locked out of the house, he barks constantly and bites / scratches until he is back in. We have tried putting him outside in a gated section of our garden when we have had visitors. He chewed through the fence and proceeded to scratch at the door until he was back in, I couldnt put him through that distress. Because of the degree of escalation, I cant bring him back here with my 2.5 yr old I couldnt forgive myself if something happened. I want to fight but it has to involve a rehome because we have tried for 2 years to improve his behaviour and as I said, its worse than ever now. He bit me quite badly on my hand a year ago, which I put down to him being poorly as there was no apparent reason. Realistically, I should of looked to rehome him then. I would love for what you are advising to be an option to us, but I just cant bring him back here now, we have become prisoners in our own home and despite me trying not to be, I am nervous with him. If it was just the two of us, I would keep trying but I cant risk my toddler, he has to be priority in this. Really appreciate your input thankyou x


OP i can see your really desperate but PLEASE put yourself in someone elses shoes IF you manage to find rescue to take him [which is highly unlikely once you have explained everything in detail - your going to have to be really honest] how could you live with yourself knowing this dog would have the possibility of putting another family / person through all you are enduring now ? you cannot risk these things happening to someone else , the dog sounds like a liability and whilst i can appreciate you would like someone to step forward to save him , imagine how you would feel IF he was given another chance and managed to bite someone else eg, an elderly person or a child quite badly ?
if he`s not suitable for your environment and you can say hand on your heart you have done everything you possibly can and have exhausted every avenue with him , the kindest thing you can do for him is to pts. if you don`t do it the likelyhood is a rescue will take him and do this anyway if they assess and deem him totally unsuitable to rehome , could you stand that knowing that possibly in his last moments your dog was surrounded by people he DIDNT know ?


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> I may have missed it somewhere throughout the thread. Has he always had this degree of aggression? Or is this level of aggression new?


We have had, over the years quite a few bouts of aggression. It was usually through being territorial ie strangers coming in, moving him from a sofa and a couple of times through possesion of a bone/treat. We also had a couple of horrendous incidents getting him in the car, where he would go in and almost guard the car. You couldnt get anywhere near. This did improve slightly with the behaviourist but thats exactly whats happened today, and he doesnt seem to be able to snap out of it. Previously when he kicked off as soon as he got back in the house he was fine! He used to also act aggressively but then shortly after be really submissive, lying down or lifing his paw after the incident but not anymore. The first incident 2 weeks ago was over nothing with my OH. What was scary is he went right up to his face then jumped on the sofa next to him, thats when i said to my OH you need to walk away but he still went for him. Then a couple of days later, we have a baby gate on the stairs where he comes and greets us every morning after going out for a wee. As I do every morning, I went to give him a stroke and he completely flipped his lid, thankfully I got my arm out of the way. He ran downstirs in his bed in the kitchen (behind another gate) but everytime we walked past he would lunge at us and there was no calming him down. It is pure 'red mist'. I know this sounds incredibly like 'rage' and if you saw his eyes, they kind of get a green sheen on them its quite scary. Sorry for the rambling on xx


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

diablo said:


> OP i can see your really desperate but PLEASE put yourself in someone elses shoes IF you manage to find rescue to take him [which is highly unlikely once you have explained everything in detail - your going to have to be really honest] how could you live with yourself knowing this dog would have the possibility of putting another family / person through all you are enduring now ? you cannot risk these things happening to someone else , the dog sounds like a liability and whilst i can appreciate you would like someone to step forward to save him , imagine how you would feel IF he was given another chance and managed to bite someone else eg, an elderly person or a child quite badly ?
> if he`s not suitable for your environment and you can say hand on your heart you have done everything you possibly can and have exhausted every avenue with him , the kindest thing you can do for him is to pts. if you don`t do it the likelyhood is a rescue will take him and do this anyway if they assess and deem him totally unsuitable to rehome , could you stand that knowing that possibly in his last moments your dog was surrounded by people he DIDNT know ?


I know and before coming on this forum that is exactly what I was thinking but look at all the different advice i have been given. My OH says exactly what you do. Its me thats now pushing for the rescue centre. I just dont know what is for the best. Ultimately, I think he could be managed with the righ person but its whether that option is available. We simply cant take the risk with a toddler, wouldnt you agree? x


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I know and before coming on this forum that is exactly what I was thinking but look at all the different advice i have been given. My OH says exactly what you do. Its me thats now pushing for the rescue centre. I just dont know what is for the best. Ultimately, I think he could be managed with the righ person but its whether that option is available. We simply cant take the risk with a toddler, wouldnt you agree? x


you can`t really take the risk with anyone , it`s unfair. 
even the right person is going to struggle with him going by your posts and at the end of the day no one can actually make any guarantee`s or promises that he will no longer behave this way with the right person it could just escalate the problems and turn his insecurities into a real big problem for someone else , it`s a big ask and a big risk and i do think some have maybe given you false hope. i`ve fostered in the past for a few rescue`s and i`ve never ever known any of them take the risk with a dog that is a confirmed biter.
if i were in your position with a dog that behaved like this i`m afraid he would have been gone days if not weeks ago , i wouldn`t pass this kind of problem on it`s asking a great deal for someone to be responsible for a dog exhibiting the kind of behaviours your describing.
there are dogs in rescue that have done nothing wrong , perfectly lovely dogs that would fit well into a family environment that cannot find homes , imagine how long your boy is going to be waiting in kennels for the `right` kind of home to come along , because believe me there are going to be very few when perfectly amiable dogs are waiting that no one is interested in.
it`s wrong for folks to say he would be fostered out too , many , many foster carers have multiple animals they would need to consider first and many do have young children so unfortunately he would be in kennels and i suspect he would be waiting a very long time it would be really cruel to do that to a dog 
i don`t think there is a person on here that likes hearing of a dog that should be pts , or folks advising someone to pts their dogs but going by everything you have described i think you are quite justified and shouldn`t be made to feel guilty for what IS the right thing to do.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

diablo said:


> you can`t really take the risk with anyone , it`s unfair.
> even the right person is going to struggle with him going by your posts and at the end of the day no one can actually make any guarantee`s or promises that he will no longer behave this way with the right person it could just escalate the problems and turn his insecurities into a real big problem for someone else , it`s a big ask and a big risk and i do think some have maybe given you false hope. i`ve fostered in the past for a few rescue`s and i`ve never ever known any of them take the risk with a dog that is a confirmed biter.
> if i were in your position with a dog that behaved like this i`m afraid he would have been gone days if not weeks ago , i wouldn`t pass this kind of problem on it`s asking a great deal for someone to be responsible for a dog exhibiting the kind of behaviours your describing.
> there are dogs in rescue that have done nothing wrong , perfectly lovely dogs that would fit well into a family environment that cannot find homes , imagine how long your boy is going to be waiting in kennels for the `right` kind of home to come along , because believe me there are going to be very few when perfectly amiable dogs are waiting that no one is interested in.
> ...


Everything you said makes perfect sense. I keep thinking to myself am I blowing it out of proportion but it really is that bad. I have been reading much more into rage tonight, if it really does exist its very like what Oscar suffers. The other thing is that knowing Oscar, he would not like kennels, he has always been house sat when we have been away (and bitten my brother too which he only just told us). I really think he would be distressed to be left in a cage type environment, he hated his crate as a puppy. Im supposed to be at work tomorrow, sleep is the last thing on my mind! x


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> We have had, over the years quite a few bouts of aggression. It was usually through being territorial ie strangers coming in, moving him from a sofa and a couple of times through possesion of a bone/treat. We also had a couple of horrendous incidents getting him in the car, where he would go in and almost guard the car. You couldnt get anywhere near. This did improve slightly with the behaviourist but thats exactly whats happened today, and he doesnt seem to be able to snap out of it. Previously when he kicked off as soon as he got back in the house he was fine! He used to also act aggressively but then shortly after be really submissive, lying down or lifing his paw after the incident but not anymore. The first incident 2 weeks ago was over nothing with my OH. What was scary is he went right up to his face then jumped on the sofa next to him, thats when i said to my OH you need to walk away but he still went for him. Then a couple of days later, we have a baby gate on the stairs where he comes and greets us every morning after going out for a wee. As I do every morning, I went to give him a stroke and he completely flipped his lid, thankfully I got my arm out of the way. He ran downstirs in his bed in the kitchen (behind another gate) but everytime we walked past he would lunge at us and there was no calming him down. It is pure 'red mist'. I know this sounds incredibly like 'rage' and if you saw his eyes, they kind of get a green sheen on them its quite scary. Sorry for the rambling on xx


The majority of the incidents sounds like a really bad case of him being possessive and territorial...but then there are the two incidents with yourself and your OH. When he was in his bed and lunging at you, that sounds like him guarding his territory, ergo his bed.

I would still give the rescues a go. They will assess him with everything they have and they WILL NOT rehome him if he is not suitable. If I was close enough I would come and get him, but Sunderland is a bit too far from me.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Everything you said makes perfect sense. I keep thinking to myself am I blowing it out of proportion but it really is that bad. I have been reading much more into rage tonight, if it really does exist its very like what Oscar suffers. The other thing is that knowing Oscar, he would not like kennels, he has always been house sat when we have been away (and bitten my brother too which he only just told us). I really think he would be distressed to be left in a cage type environment, he hated his crate as a puppy. Im supposed to be at work tomorrow, sleep is the last thing on my mind! x


i feel for you , i really do 
i know it`s a really hard thing to accept right now and i cannot imagine the pain you feel , it would be tearing me apart inside 
i do know though , i would make the right decision however hard it were because i just couldn`t put another person through this - this is what you have to keep focused on.
i do really understand and i do know it will leave a bitter afterthought with some but i honestly don`t see what else you can do when you have exhausted every other avenue with seeing vets and behaviourists.
it`s very , very clear to me you love your dog and want what is best for him but the thing is IF you do manage to find a rescue place that will take him once he`s gone that`s it , you won`t receive updates and you won`t know what is happening with him those are usually the blanket rules with almost every single rescue once you`ve relinquished a dog to them and i think the not knowing is going to be a whole lot worse than knowing that you did the right thing in the end for everyone concerned. i know these words are not very comforting right now and i certainly wouldn`t want to be in your position but i do understand that right now it`s very easy for others to say ``save the dog`` but at the end of the day they aren`t in your position and can`t fully appreciate how frightening these episodes are for you and your family and everyone else concerned ((((big hugs)))) xxx


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

diablo said:


> OP i can see your really desperate but PLEASE put yourself in someone elses shoes IF you manage to find rescue to take him [which is highly unlikely once you have explained everything in detail - your going to have to be really honest] how could you live with yourself knowing this dog would have the possibility of putting another family / person through all you are enduring now ? you cannot risk these things happening to someone else , the dog sounds like a liability and whilst i can appreciate you would like someone to step forward to save him , imagine how you would feel IF he was given another chance and managed to bite someone else eg, an elderly person or a child quite badly ?
> if he`s not suitable for your environment and you can say hand on your heart you have done everything you possibly can and have exhausted every avenue with him , the kindest thing you can do for him is to pts. if you don`t do it the likelyhood is a rescue will take him and do this anyway if they assess and deem him totally unsuitable to rehome , could you stand that knowing that possibly in his last moments your dog was surrounded by people he DIDNT know ?


That's a hell of a guilt trip. There are rescues out there who will take this dog and they will help them with everything they have in their heart and soul. This dog deserves every chance that someone can give him and for you to say just put him to sleep...wow. Rescues have people who can read dogs body language. There could be a tiny minute thing the OP is missing (OP. Please do not think I am saying your stupid. I am not) but there could be something that is making him do this and they are missing it because they do not know what they are looking for. There is also his own body language...a tiny little movement and you know that he is going to attack. But you need to know what to look for.

No decent rescue will automatically rehome him if he is aggressive. They will do everything they can for him. My God I am so flipping angry right now about someone trying to guilt trip the OP...:mad2:


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> That's a hell of a guilt trip. There are rescues out there who will take this dog and they will help them with everything they have in their heart and soul. This dog deserves every chance that someone can give him and for you to say just put him to sleep...wow. Rescues have people who can read dogs body language. There could be a tiny minute thing the OP is missing (OP. Please do not think I am saying your stupid. I am not) but there could be something that is making him do this and they are missing it because they do not know what they are looking for. There is also his own body language...a tiny little movement and you know that he is going to attack. But you need to know what to look for.
> 
> No decent rescue will automatically rehome him if he is aggressive. They will do everything they can for him. My God I am so flipping angry right now about someone trying to guilt trip the OP...:mad2:


you`ll have to flip , i`m a realist and it`s clear the OP is struggling with their dog with all the dogs waiting in rescue right now how long realistically will the OP have to wait before space can be made for him ??
OP has stated she can`t have him back home because she will not risk her toddler , i completely UNDERSTAND that so who else should she risk before space can be made ?
i don`t know of any rescue that will take a CONFIRMED biter and its wrong to give the OP a false sense of security , this is an internet forum , we aren`t in her position we don`t know the risks but if things are really that bad that it took hour and half to get the dog out of a car because he was so aggressive plus numerous other incidents i don`t think anyone on here is actually qualified enough to state ``save the dog``


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

diablo said:


> you`ll have to flip , i`m a realist and it`s clear the OP is struggling with their dog with all the dogs waiting in rescue right now how long realistically will the OP have to wait before space can be made for him ??
> OP has stated she can`t have him back home because she will not risk her toddler , i completely UNDERSTAND that so who else should she risk before space can be made ?
> i don`t know of any rescue that will take a CONFIRMED biter and its wrong to give the OP a false sense of security , this is an internet forum , we aren`t in her position we don`t know the risks but if things are really that bad that it took hour and half to get the dog out of a car because he was so aggressive plus numerous other incidents i don`t think anyone on here is actually qualified enough to state ``save the dog``


Haleyth is going to check with her rescue. So let's give the dog a chance before we hand him a death sentence eh? Roll your eyes at me all you want. At least we can try everything possible.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Haleyth is going to check with her rescue. So let's give the dog a chance before we hand him a death sentence eh? Roll your eyes at me all you want. At least we can try everything possible.


the dog has bitten people badly not once but numerous times , how many chances should a dog have????
hayleyth went from saying her rescue would definitely 100% take him to then saying ``ring round`` 
i don`t know many folks who would honestly give a dog chance after chance to continue biting people and after reading all the information given by the OP , OP should be given practical and SAFE advice concerning a dog that sounds really dangerous to everyone it has come into contact with not guilt tripped into saving a dog that is too DANGEROUS to take home with her toddler and risking the safety of other people she knows and is close to until rescue space can become available


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

diablo said:


> the dog has bitten people badly not once but numerous times , how many chances should a dog have????
> hayleyth went from saying her rescue would definitely 100% take him to then saying ``ring round``
> i don`t know many folks who would honestly give a dog chance after chance to continue biting people and after reading all the information given by the OP , OP should be given practical and SAFE advice concerning a dog that sounds really dangerous to everyone it has come into contact with not guilt tripped into saving a dog that is too DANGEROUS to take home with her toddler and risking the safety of other people she knows and is close to until rescue space can become available


Yes and the dog has gone from being unable to be round a toddler to being ok 99% of the time to the little child being able to play with him. His behaviour sounds like territorial and possessive behaviour. There are two instances where he has attacked apparently unprovoked. So we don't exactly know what is going on. But people on the thread have also stated that the dog should be assessed properly. I believe a veterinary behaviourist should assess this dog and go from there. I have also stated that I would take this dog if I were closer.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Yes and the dog has gone from being unable to be round a toddler to being ok 99% of the time to the little child being able to play with him. His behaviour sounds like territorial and possessive behaviour. There are two instances where he has attacked apparently unprovoked. So we don't exactly know what is going on. But people on the thread have also stated that the dog should be assessed properly. I believe a veterinary behaviourist should assess this dog and go from there. I have also stated that I would take this dog if I were closer.


no read back a little OP is too SCARED to take the dog back home that says a lot to me , dog and toddler are not in the same household , speaks volumes.



carlycl said:


> *I just cant bring him back here now, we have become prisoners in our own home and despite me trying not to be, I am nervous with him. If it was just the two of us, I would keep trying but I cant risk my toddler*


shes too FRIGHTENED to bring the dog back home , i honestly cannot believe so many people seem to think they can help , they aren`t there , can`t see whats going on , there is absolutely no way i would risk this dog with anyone or any kind of rescue back up and to suggest otherwise is complete and utter madness OP has had vet checks , had tests run , sought the help of numerous behaviorists , exhausted everything in vain to keep the dog , i honestly don`t see what else she can do when she`s already done more than most folk would have done after the second time this dog decided to attack someone.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Yes and the dog has gone from being unable to be round a toddler to being ok 99% of the time to the little child being able to play with him. His behaviour sounds like territorial and possessive behaviour. There are two instances where he has attacked apparently unprovoked. So we don't exactly know what is going on. But people on the thread have also stated that the dog should be assessed properly. I believe a veterinary behaviourist should assess this dog and go from there. I have also stated that I would take this dog if I were closer.


I wish you were although i dont know how he would be with6 other dogs! Im torn, i cant bare the pain x


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

diablo said:


> no read back a little OP is too SCARED to take the dog back home that says a lot to me , dog and toddler are not in the same household , speaks volumes.
> 
> shes too FRIGHTENED to bring the dog back home , i honestly cannot believe so many people seem to think they can help , they aren`t there , can`t see whats going on , there is absolutely no way i would risk this dog with anyone or any kind of rescue back up and to suggest otherwise is complete and utter madness OP has had vet checks , had tests run , sought the help of numerous behaviorists , exhausted everything in vain to keep the dog , i honestly don`t see what else she can do when she`s already done more than most folk would have done after the second time this dog decided to attack someone.


Massive difference between a behaviourist who thinks they can do the job. To a VETERINARY QUALIFIED BEHAVIOURIST. Trust me, massive difference. You have already decided this dogs fate so it's a mute point even trying to reason with you.

Carlycl...please go and get some sleep hon. You need to rest. I know it will be hard but you need to lay down and try to get some sleep xx


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Massive difference between a behaviourist who thinks they can do the job. To a VETERINARY QUALIFIED BEHAVIOURIST. Trust me, massive difference. You have already decided this dogs fate so it's a mute point even trying to reason with you.
> 
> Carlycl...please go and get some sleep hon. You need to rest. I know it will be hard but you need to lay down and try to get some sleep xx


yes , the dog should be pts because it IS the right and responsible thing to do , how do you know they weren`t VETERINARY QUALIFIED BEHAVIOURISTS were you there ???
a dog that bites repeatedly again and again and again shouldn`t be given any kind of chance and i`m absolutely horrified that people think that is okay.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

diablo said:


> yes , the dog should be pts because it IS the right and responsible thing to do , how do you know they weren`t VETERINARY QUALIFIED BEHAVIOURISTS were you there ???
> a dog that bites repeatedly again and again and again shouldn`t be given any kind of chance and i`m absolutely horrified that people think that is okay.


I'm done arguing with you. You've sentenced this dog and I really don't want to hear anymore about it. The OP needs support. Not people arguing.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> I'm done arguing with you. You've sentenced this dog and I really don't want to hear anymore about it. The OP needs support. Not people arguing.


yes she needs support in doing the RIGHT and justified thing , not guilt tripped into saving a dog that has been given chance , after chance after chance after seeking EXPERT advice on more than one occasion.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I wish you were although i dont know how he would be with6 other dogs! Im torn, i cant bare the pain x


My lot would run rings round him. Honestly when they are out they never stop.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> My lot would run rings round him. Honestly when they are out they never stop.


I cant sleep. Im sorry to put my problems on here, been crying for hours :-(. I miss my boy so much x


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I cant sleep. Im sorry to put my problems on here, been crying for hours :-(. I miss my boy so much x


carlycl i have just lifted this from cocker spaniel club of Great Britain rescue guide in it they state ;



> On contacting an Area Representative, full details of the present owner will be taken including name, address and telephone number. All relevant information about the Cocker Spaniel to be re-homed will be requested, i.e. age, colour, sex, fully inoculated, neutered/spayed, microchipped, temperament, obedience, sociable with people or other dogs, any health issues and the reason for re-homing. It is important that the Area Representative receives honest and full details about the Cocker Spaniel to be put up for adoption.
> *If your dog shows signs of aggression or defensive over something to the point of snapping or biting,** you must realise that you are putting other people at risk and indeed yourself if there is a legal problem.* *The Cocker Spaniel Club Re-homing and Rescue Scheme cannot accept the rehoming of a dog which has bitten anyone or showing signs of aggressive or untypical temperament.* If deemed necessary, the decision of euthanasia of any rehomed/rescued Cocker Spaniel must be made by a Veterinary Surgeon in conjunction with the Area Representative and Regional Co-Ordinator. As hard as it is to face, putting a potentially dangerous biting dog to sleep is often the only safe and responsible option to take.


http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/cscrinformation.pdf

before ringing around rescues to take him in this morning i would ring trevor cooper for some legal advice because reading that stance from the breed clubs advice it may not be okay legally to relinquish him to rescue when you have been in the situation where he has bitten on numerous occasions.

Doglaw - SPECIALIST ADVICE ON DOG LAW


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## Annabel12 (Jun 6, 2012)

OP I really feel for you. 

I have read through all the thread and feel it is v unlikely that a rescue will take him.. As others have said it sounds like cocker rage. When you saw the vet what did they say/suggest? What was their opinion of the situation?

Unfortunately I feel for Oscar that pts may be the best thing for him and for other people.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

carlycl said:


> I have previously posted about our increasingly aggressive (but beloved). We very reluctantly arranged to have Oscar rehomed with a family members friend because of various serious aggression incidents with myself and OH. We also have a toddler in the house. This was not before a horrendous incident on fri night where he went for both of us and we had to take our little boy out of the house, leave our house wide open all night (could have been SOO much worse!). Yesterday he went to the family members house to allow gradual introduction to his wife and son. Today his new owner went round, oscar was great and they decide to just put oscar in his van to take to the new home. I would have catergorically advised against this as we have had car aggression with him before. As soon as he went in the van no one could get near, he was trying to attack anyone who went near (the level of aggression is incredible). My OH had to drive over (30 mins) and there was a 1.5 hour stand off before he eventually went in the house. Needless to say its kind of put the new owner off and its made us wonder if they would be able to manage him at all, it almost seems irresponsible for us to allow it to happen although they are willing to take him. The family member has been locked out of his kitchen all day because Oscar is going for him and not getting over his red mist. There is now talk of having him PTS and evben calling the vet out if we are unable to calm him. If he was a human I swear it would be a mental illness such as schizophrenia. Please, what would you do? Could he ever be rehomed? I just dont think its fair to sign him off. Im in turmoil xx


You had to take your child and leave your home overnight because of the DOG? I will do anything for my dogs, but come on................who is more important, the dog or your child? Nothing has changed since last time you came on and were warned that your child was in danger, but still it goes on.

You cannot rehome this dog. I can imagine how upsetting it is; I love my dogs dearly and would never want to part with them, but think of it like an incurable illness. If your dog had some horrible disease and was suffering, you would not hesitate to put him out of his misery. This is no different. This dog is ill, very ill, and he must be really, really miserable and uncomfortable. Yet you want to rehome him.

I don't want to sound harsh, but that is the bottom line. He is ill, he is suffering, what will you do about it?


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

OP realistically you could get a 2nd opinion from another vet and speak to the CS rescue but as most have said unless a medical or behaviour reason is found the dog will not be taken by anyone as it is too big of a risk, you said youself he wouldnt want to be locked up all day but this would probably be the only result if you want to keep him. You cannot and should not risk your child because you want your dog to be part of the family, it will end very badly.

I know it is soul destroying making such decisions, but no one can tell you what course of action to take xx


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## Painted Lady (Aug 8, 2012)

I can't imagine the pain you must be feeling right now, all the conflicting advice and opinions must be making your head spin. 

I too have a toddler, and like you, absolutely would not have a confirmed biter/aggressive dog in my home. My job as a mother trumps my job as a dog owner. However, I would have the vet run every test they could think of to ensure that there was no underlying illness that could be causing the aggression and ultimately be fixable. If nothing was found, then I would pts. 

Would it be at all possible to get a muzzle onto him so he could have a vet trip or a vet call out? 

My best friend was in a similar position last year, her beautiful malamute started guarding resources and she couldn't get him to stop despite hiring a behaviourist from the vet centre. Next he began guarding rooms. Then the house. Whilst in the garden he killed a cat. Then whilst walking he lunged for and got a small dog. The dog had to be pts. All the while she was making excuses and sticking with the behaviourist. Next he started growing at her 6 yr old, she blamed the child, saying he must have inadvertently done something to set him off. When he air snapped at the boy, who was just sitting watching tv, she decided to ring rescues and breed specific rescues, they refused to help saying an aggressive dog needed to be pts. She refused and decided to just keep them apart using gates. He knocked over the gates one day and bit her son. Even then she didn't pts she passed him off to another of our friends. A friend with cats despite knowing his prey drive was uncontrolable. He killed the cats. He was finally pts when no one else was willing to take a risk on him, though she was willing for anyone to have him and even asked me despite knowing I have two children and two cats. 

Sometimes the risk is just too large, and they need to be pts unless you get the right help right at the beginning when the behaviours first start manifesting. I'm not telling you the story to convince you to pts, but to make you aware of what can happen. Only you know deep down whether his behaviour is likely to escalate or whether he could be rehabilitated. Perhaps in the right home, with the right owner, he'd be okay. It's wether you can find that owner and that home. I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you find the right conclusion.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

There's an outcry over the number of perfectly happy, friendly dogs being pts for lack of homes.

So - dogs are put to sleep every single day. Could we at least try to make sure it's the right ones?

I took on a dog from a private rehome, a terrier, it had some 'snapping at feet' problems I was told, but it went from trying to attack strange dogs and strange people, to taking a CHUNK out of my dad's leg when he came into my house - he wouldn't let him into my living room where I was on the phone at all, then he started attacking my other dog.

I'm really sorry, but with so many lovely dogs needing homes there isn't time or space for aggressive dogs to take up a rescue space.

And yes, wow, I'm hard hearted. When you have an emotional connection to a dog it's the hardest thing in the world, but seeing dog after dog after dog pts for no reason other than no home, I'm afraid having a seriously aggressive dog pts is a no brainer, surely?


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Dog behaviour is very situation specific. Anyone in Rescue will tell you that the behaviour of a dog in kennels / foster / different homes is markedly different. 
The OP needs to seek professional advice from someone with qualifications and experience, not internet pundits who have never observed the dog and don`t know the situation at first hand. 

Aggression is not a problem to be dealt with by well meaning people who lack first hand knowledge and proven experience.

eta: IME most trainers and behaviourists are inexperienced with aggressive dogs. Because of insurance and class management issues they will exclude aggressive dogs. (Or suggest they are PTS) 
There are a few excellent people who specialise in the management and retraining of such dogs - so I suggest you research a little.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Put the dog to sleep. It's had every chance. Perhaps it has some neurological problem but whatever it is, the dog is dangerous.

Your first duty is to your child. You can't keep your child safe with that dog. If you re-home it HAS to be to someone who can manage a dog that will bite people. How many such people ARE there? I don't see anyone here putting a hand up and there are some brilliant dog people here. 

If you get superlative help for the dog where will the dog live while the work was done? 

Credit to you for trying but now apply common sense. You can't live with the dog as it is; it's not safe for others to try; no-one (who could manage a dangerous dog) is volunteering to take it. You tried! Give up. Go for safety. The dog could cause shocking injuries to a child/old person.

I've got a dog that is not safe around other dogs. He's a management issue every day of his life. We manage. If he was as dangerous to people as he is to dogs I'd wouldn't hesitate to put him to sleep. Clever as I think I am, I make mistakes. A mistake that led to my dog biting the way your dog has bitten. NO!


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

We have just had the call to say oscar has calmed down, family member can now access his kitchen. We have also officially been told the rehome is off because of the severity of what he saw yesterday. I wouldnt have allowed it anyway, we were told they were experienced dog owners but just not for Oscar and his issues. It is all very well saying more vets, behaviourists etc (as some are) but right now he is a timebomb. I cant leave him much longer at family members house, its not fair he is under threat in his own home likewise he cant come here. Today a decision has go to be made, I cant see rescues taking him and would it be fair to?? He would HATE being confined to a kennel which by the sounds of things if he isnt rehomed could be months, i dont know if i can do it to him. I wish it wasnt me in this situation, it is a living nightmare. Im totally pissed off with the vet, the behaviourist because Im basically being told they have failed oscar. I CANT possibly feel more guilty than i already do despite the general concensus being that something has snapped in his mind, it must have done. Im sure every person on this forum who saw what happened yesterday for nearly 2 hours would change their mind about helping Oscar. Ive had 2 hours sleep and I cant think straight, with a toddler, supposedly going to work yet still agonising over what to do and how to do it. I dont drink but right now, I could drink myself into oblivion. 

Thanks all for your input, I know im getting conflicting info but at least we will make an informed choice. C x


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Dogs Trust are supposed to never put a healthy dog down and have a place called the sanctuary for dogs to run free if they can not live with people. Sorry that you are having to go through this.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Jobeth said:


> Dogs Trust are supposed to never put a healthy dog down and have a place called the sanctuary for dogs to run free if they can not live with people. Sorry that you are having to go through this.


My OH went to see them sat down with someone and they said they wouldnt be able to rehome him and basically advised to pts, this is before the problems escalated in the last few days. So the 'never put a healthy dog to sleep' is BS. He might not be healthy but they dont know that..


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jobeth said:


> Dogs Trust are supposed to never put a healthy dog down and have a place called the sanctuary for dogs to run free if they can not live with people. Sorry that you are having to go through this.


That is a con. They would not take my friend's cocker because he did not like and had bitten a child, though he was fine with adults. I think that is a con to get more donations. Perhaps they mean they won't put a dog down if they cannot find him a home.

Victoria Stilwell once had a cocker with rage syndrome on her show - it caused her to lose a lot of popularity, so I am told, because she advised putting him down but so did their vet. The dog would be fine, she worked with him, got him really good, then he suddenly raced down the garden and sank his teeth into the family's little girl. She wasn't even running. He kept doing things like this; the vet diagnosed rage syndrome and as I said - it is an illness, like any other.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

carlycl said:


> My OH went to see them sat down with someone and they said they wouldnt be able to rehome him and basically advised to pts, this is before the problems escalated in the last few days. So the 'never put a healthy dog to sleep' is BS. He might not be healthy but they dont know that..


Aggression is classed as mental health illness.

I really do think you will struggle to find a rescue who can help, and if you do what life will your dog have?

Its obviously very stressed. Having been through something similar i know how hard it is but its not about you but whats best for the dog. There are worse things for it than to be PTS.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

SpringerLex said:


> That's a hell of a guilt trip. There are rescues out there who will take this dog and they will help them with everything they have in their heart and soul. This dog deserves every chance that someone can give him and for you to say just put him to sleep...wow. Rescues have people who can read dogs body language. There could be a tiny minute thing the OP is missing (OP. Please do not think I am saying your stupid. I am not) but there could be something that is making him do this and they are missing it because they do not know what they are looking for. There is also his own body language...a tiny little movement and you know that he is going to attack. But you need to know what to look for.
> 
> *I think you are clutching at straws and being grossly unfair to the OP.*
> 
> No decent rescue will automatically rehome him if he is aggressive. They will do everything they can for him. My God I am so flipping angry right now about someone trying to guilt trip the OP...:mad2:


And I feel so flipping angry that the OP, who is already going through so much distress, is being given false hope and advised to act in an irresponsible way. The OP has already tried rescues who have refused to take him. If Hayleyths rescue will take him then thats great  although she is now saying she will have to ask around?
Rescues also vary considerably in their knowledge and care and rehoming policy. There are rescues and rescues! It is too much of a risk with this dog to go to a rescue, but in their desperation, the OP may will not realise.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Its me thats now pushing for the rescue centre. I just dont know what is for the best. Ultimately, I think he could be managed with the righ person but its whether that option is available. We simply cant take the risk with a toddler, wouldnt you agree? X


No, you can't take the risk, but you cannot expect anyone else to take the risk either. The fact that experienced dog owners have refused to take him having seen how he reacted as he did when going to his new home should tell you something. It is not fair and responsible to rehome him.



carlycl said:


> My OH went to see them sat down with someone and they said they wouldnt be able to rehome him and basically advised to pts, this is before the problems escalated in the last few days. So the 'never put a healthy dog to sleep' is BS. He might not be healthy but they dont know that..


Carly I feel for you, I really do, but can you not see that he is NOT healthy? He may be in body, but not in mind. The reality is that he is not a happy dog. It is tough, but you love this dog, please do the kind thing for him.

It may seem unfair, but rescues cannot and will not take on such a dog. If Hayleyth's rescue will, then great, but look at how taking him to a new home set him off. Do you really want him to keep going through these episodes just so he can stay alive? Not only are they dangerous for others even if you keep your own family safe, but how distressing do you think they are for him? Give him his peace and dignity. Show him how much you love him and allow him peace instead of him keep going through these episodes.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

diablo said:


> i think it`s really unfair asking the OP to do this , most rescues are already overflowing with dogs and most have waiting lists , it`s unrealistic asking the OP to put themselves in a position where they could still have this dog in a week or a months time - he needs sorting NOW and the only thing i can advise is to pts for everyones safety.
> you`ve gone from saying your rescue would 100% take him , to ring round. they either can or can`t take him , if they can you need to discuss with the OP how long they are possibly going to have to wait before there is space for him.
> 
> i think in light of the situation you have done everything you possibly can , getting veterinary advice and seeking help from behaviourists it`s fair to state sometimes rescues get it wrong , could you ever live not knowing what has happened to him , or where he`s ended up knowing the kind of dog you have on your hands right now ?
> i know i couldn`t. i think deep down you know what needs to be done.


No, my rescue could take him but it makes sense for the op to ring round resues near her as they are closer. Thats common sense actually, im sure they would prefer to take few miles away than hundreds. And pts i dont think is necessary atm, thats an easy option, an assesment by a trained behaviourist in DA is needed first and to be dealt with by experienced people. They dont rehome to anyone you know with a dog like this? So it would go to an exp home.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

carlycl said:


> We have just had the call to say oscar has calmed down, family member can now access his kitchen. We have also officially been told the rehome is off because of the severity of what he saw yesterday. I wouldnt have allowed it anyway, we were told they were experienced dog owners but just not for Oscar and his issues. It is all very well saying more vets, behaviourists etc (as some are) but right now he is a timebomb. I cant leave him much longer at family members house, its not fair he is under threat in his own home likewise he cant come here. Today a decision has go to be made, I cant see rescues taking him and would it be fair to?? He would HATE being confined to a kennel which by the sounds of things if he isnt rehomed could be months, i dont know if i can do it to him. I wish it wasnt me in this situation, it is a living nightmare. Im totally pissed off with the vet, the behaviourist because Im basically being told they have failed oscar.


Please ignore those who say you or your vet/behaviourist has failed Oscar - if it is rage syndrome there is nothing that would have changed anything.



> I CANT possibly feel more guilty than i already do despite the general concensus being that something has snapped in his mind, it must have done. Im sure every person on this forum who saw what happened yesterday for nearly 2 hours would change their mind about helping Oscar. Ive had 2 hours sleep and I cant think straight, with a toddler, supposedly going to work yet still agonising over what to do and how to do it. I dont drink but right now, I could drink myself into oblivion.
> 
> Thanks all for your input, I know im getting conflicting info but at least we will make an informed choice. C x


I really feel for you. It must be awful being given hope but realistically it is dangerous. None of us like it to come to this, but your dog deserves peace too, not being put through what will be so distressing for him too.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

Jobeth said:


> Dogs Trust are supposed to never put a healthy dog down and have a place called the sanctuary for dogs to run free if they can not live with people. Sorry that you are having to go through this.


I dont agree with dogs trust, never putting a healthy dog down isnt fair if its never going to get rehomed, its distressing for the dog and very unfair.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> No, my rescue could take him but it makes sense for the op to ring round resues near her as they are closer. Thats common sense actually, im sure they would prefer to take few miles away than hundreds. And pts i dont think is necessary atm, thats an easy option, an assesment by a trained behaviourist in DA is needed first and to be dealt with by experienced people. They dont rehome to anyone you know with a dog like this? So it would go to an exp home.


Hayleyth - which rescue do you work for?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> No, you cant take the risk, but you cannot expect anyone else to take the risk either. The fact that experienced dog owners have refused to take him having seen how he reacted as he did when going to his new home should tell you something. It is not fair and responsible to rehome him.
> 
> Carly I feel for you, I really do, but can you not see that he is NOT healthy. He may be in body, but no in mind. The reality is that he is not a happy dog. It is tough, but you love this dog, please do the kind thing for him.
> 
> It may seem unfair, but rescues cannot and will not take on such a dog. If Hayleyth's rescue will, then great, but look at how taking him to a new how set him off. Do you really want him to keep going through these episodes just so he can stay alive? Not only are they dangerous for others even if you keep your own family safe, but how distressing do you think they are for him? Give him his peace and dignity. *Show him how much you love him and allow him peace instead of him keep going through these episodes*.


Exactly what I have been trying to say. The dog is ill, he is suffering. I haven't seen the dog any more than anyone else has, but from OP's description this dog is mentally ill which is no different from any other illness.



hayleyth said:


> No, my rescue could take him but it makes sense for the op to ring round resues near her as they are closer. Thats common sense actually, im sure they would prefer to take few miles away than hundreds. And pts i dont think is necessary atm, thats an easy option, an assesment by a trained behaviourist in DA is needed first and to be dealt with by experienced people. They dont rehome to anyone you know with a dog like this? So it would go to an exp home.


Put to sleep is an easy option? That's what you think, is it? Coming from the person who told another anxious dog owner: It's a new home, so what? I suppose there is not much more to be expected.

Putting your beloved pet to sleep is NEVER an easy option, it is the last resort and for the dog's benefit, no one else's. If it is not, then that person should not have a dog.

I have lifted 8 stone of golden retriever to his feet every morning for three weeks, rather than have him pts with his crippled legs. I have sat up and nursed my three year old arthritic dog, spent a fortune on medicines, massaged his legs, done everything rather than take that final step when he was only going to get worse.

Everyone here will tell you the same - pts is a last resort but I believe that the OP has come to that last resort with this dog. It is not a punishment for his aggression; he can't help his aggression, any more than he could help having fits if he was epileptic.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

It is very difficult to give advice on this situation over a forum, because we dont know the actual situation and do not know the dog.

There are a lot of factors that could influence a situation which we do not know about. I would never ever put my dog to sleep unless i had a proper assesment by a expert in dangerous dog behaviour and handling. And having a proper examination by a vet. If my dog had mauled someone then depending on the reasons yes i would pts. Personally i feel something in this situation is different by as said i do not know the dog, havent seen it in these rages and dont know the owner, and the situation at the point of this rage. 

I feel that being pts yet would be an easy option as this dog needs a proper assesment done. If its great 99% of the time then i do think it can be sorted, that is a extremely high percentage where hes always great. 

OP i hope your ringing round some rescues, it would be good if you could get one near you as it saves a big journey for a dog who has car issues and you would be nearer to him. If not mine could take him but as i said you are very far to bring a dog with car issues. Let me know asap, hope your ok this morning and the dog.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

hayleyth said:


> I dont agree with dogs trust, never putting a healthy dog down isnt fair if its never going to get rehomed, its distressing for the dog and very unfair.


If the dog is going to spend the rest of his days running and playing with other dogs, getting good food and attention from the staff in a parkland environment, as they advertise, they are very lucky and can be just as happy.

One minute you are saying it is all wrong to pts a poor, sick dog with rage syndrome, who will get no physical contact because everyone's scared to get near him, and the next you are saying all those healthy dogs should be pts because they live outside in kennels and never find a pet home. You had better tell that to a lot of the top show breeders, because that is how their dogs live, though being well cared for.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Exactly what I have been trying to say. The dog is ill, he is suffering. I haven't seen the dog any more than anyone else has, but from OP's description this dog is mentally ill which is no different from any other illness.
> 
> Put to sleep is an easy option? That's what you think, is it? Coming from the person who told another anxious dog owner: It's a new home, so what? I suppose there is not much more to be expected.
> 
> ...


Pts is a quite an easy option when a dog is great 99% of the time? there are so many dogs who are wrongly diagnosed with problems because the owner hasnt taken it to the right place and hasnt allowed it to be rehabilitated.

Your situation is alot different, if i had a dog who was going to go downhill health wise and was suffering yes i would pts, as that is suffering for a dog, it should be able to walk around etc to have a quality of life. This is different, there is no evidence yet to say its a medical issue, or behaviour, we dont know the dog and it does need a proper assesment IMO.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

hayleyth said:


> It is very difficult to give advice on this situation over a forum, because we dont know the actual situation and do not know the dog.
> 
> There are a lot of factors that could influence a situation which we do not know about. I would never ever put my dog to sleep unless i had a proper assesment by a expert in dangerous dog behaviour and handling. And having a proper examination by a vet. If my dog had mauled someone then depending on the reasons yes i would pts. Personally i feel something in this situation is different by as said i do not know the dog, havent seen it in these rages and dont know the owner, and the situation at the point of this rage.
> 
> ...


A dog this ill would only need 1% of his time to kill a toddler.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> It is very difficult to give advice on this situation over a forum, because we dont know the actual situation and do not know the dog.
> 
> There are a lot of factors that could influence a situation which we do not know about. I would never ever put my dog to sleep unless i had a proper assesment by a expert in dangerous dog behaviour and handling. And having a proper examination by a vet. If my dog had mauled someone then depending on the reasons yes i would pts. Personally i feel something in this situation is different by as said i do not know the dog, havent seen it in these rages and dont know the owner, and the situation at the point of this rage.
> 
> ...


Which rescue is this? If they would take on such a dog it would be great to hear who they are. They would obviously be a reputable one so would not harm promoting them on here either.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> If the dog is going to spend the rest of his days running and playing with other dogs, getting good food and attention from the staff in a parkland environment, as they advertise, they are very lucky and can be just as happy.
> 
> One minute you are saying it is all wrong to pts a poor, sick dog with rage syndrome, who will get no physical contact because everyone's scared to get near him, and the next you are saying all those healthy dogs should be pts because they live outside in kennels and never find a pet home. You had better tell that to a lot of the top show breeders, because that is how their dogs live, though being well cared for.


How do you know it has rage syndrome? we dont even know the dog and the OP isnt even sure what it is.

The dogs trust is not like that, a lot sit in kennels for months/years waiting for a home.

And where the dog is atm it wont get any contact because they are not experienced and the problem is not being sorted.

My huskies live outside actually so no.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

OP this is all im saying on the matter as i think the dog is in the wrong home and needs help. And also i dont know the dog or you or the situation so there could be a million things wrong.

In your heart you know whats right for your dog, everyone has their opinion on when pts is the best thing. IMO i wouldnt but thats me and i have different experiences from you. 

Let me know when you've decided.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> How do you know it has rage syndrome? we dont even know the dog and the OP isnt even sure what it is.
> 
> The dogs trust is not like that, a lot sit in kennels for months/years waiting for a home.
> 
> ...


Right now Oscar is behaving fine, as normal. The situation involves lots of eggshells though. I dont have many rescues near me its very limited, especially that will take aggressive dogs


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Which rescue is this? If they would take on such a dog it would be great to hear who they are. They would obviously be a reputable one so would not harm promoting them on here either.


On the possibilty that Hayleyth has me on ignore can someone else please ask this question that she has ignored? If someone is giving out 'professional' advice it is reasonable in such a serious situation, it is reasonable to ask what rescue. In addition, it really would be a big plus of the rescue if they do this and may benefit many other dogs, cos I don't know any other rescue that would take on a dog like this.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

So many experts on a dog they have never seen.......
Please OP - find a professional who will give you an objective and informed opinion. 
If it`s pts, fine. You have done your best. 

I have a foster dog who was taken to the vet 2 weeks ago to be pts because of people and dog aggression. I can honestly say he has not shown aggression with me, or when out. 
I have seen signs that he could when confronted by someone. Therefore he is being given a chance
I have a seriously people aggressive dog who I have retrained and who is now trustworthy. 
I have pts a dog I couldn`t trust. 
That is where I`m coming from. 
All these decisions were made with professional help.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> On the possibilty that Hayleyth has me on ignore can someone else please ask this question that she has ignored? If someone is giving out 'professional' advice it is reasonable in such a serious situation, it is reasonable to ask what rescue. In addition, it really would be a big plus of the rescue if they do this and may benefit many other dogs, cos I don't know any other rescue that would take on a dog like this.


I know two dog trainers who would assess such a dog and give a knowledgeable opinion on their future. 
Would that not be the correct route to go down?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Right now Oscar is behaving fine, as normal. The situation involves lots of eggshells though. I dont have many rescues near me its very limited, especially that will take aggressive dogs


Have emailed you detaills, so what do you think your going to do?

Every has boundaries that they work to, so like if they growled at a child the dog would be pts, at a vets i worked at a dog bit the owners finger but to her that was enough and the dog was pts.

I respect your situation and feelings, at the end of the day you know what is best for your dog as we dont know the full situation or the dog.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I know two dog trainers who would assess such a dog and give a knowledgeable opinion on their future.
> Would that not be the correct route to go down?


A behaviourist yes, a trainer no. I believe the vet has already seen Oscar and a behaviourist. The difficulty is seeing the dog when he has one of these episodes as they appear unpredictable, but becoming more frequent. And where the dog is going to stay until such assessments are done.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Which rescue is this? If they would take on such a dog it would be great to hear who they are. They would obviously be a reputable one so would not harm promoting them on here either.


I have emailed the OP the details, reason i am not "promoting" is because we are extremely busy and full. Im sure they do not want calls from more people you say could benefit. We deal with induvidual cases, this case yes if they OP can not find one near, normally we dont take dogs from too far a field unless they serioulsy cant find a rescue.

Also normally the person would need to call the rescue themselves, but i have put in a special request for this dog if needed.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

I have just called the cocker spaniel resue coordinator for the country and she said she would 100% advise to pts. Said as he has that level of aggression he couldnt be rehomed and it wasnt fair to put him through it, she was really sympathetic and spoke a lot of sense. Hayley what is your rescue centre called? Now my little boy is wondering around the house looking for Oscar, calling him and asking if he is on his holidays. They were like best friends before all this kicked off :-(


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

hayleyth said:


> I have emailed the OP the details, reason i am not "promoting" is because we are extremely busy and full. Im sure they do not want calls from more people you say could benefit. We deal with induvidual cases, this case yes if they OP can not find one near, normally we dont take dogs from too far a field unless they serioulsy cant find a rescue.
> 
> Also normally the person would need to call the rescue themselves, but i have put in a special request for this dog if needed.


All rescues are busy and full but has never stopped anyone posting details on here. Sorry, but if you are giving 'professional' advice in such a serious capacity on an open forum, then I think it absolutely right that the rescue details are given. Extreme, and I'm not for one minute suggesting it is, but for all any reader knows, it _could_ be a puppy farm looking for a new stud dog!

And IF they will take on this dog - cos I don't know a rescue that would, it would make them fairly unique so a really valuable asset. The fact they are full and busy is no reason not to give their details.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I have just called the cocker spaniel resue coordinator for the country and she said she would 100% advise to pts. Said as he has that level of aggression he couldnt be rehomed and it wasnt fair to put him through it, she was really sympathetic and spoke a lot of sense. Hayley what is your rescue centre called? Now my little boy is wondering around the house looking for Oscar, calling him and asking if he is on his holidays. They were like best friends before all this kicked off :-(


Have emailed you details and numbers etc.

How old is he btw? Tbh im in still minds, the difficult thing is ive never seen this dog, never seen him when aggressive, its very difficult to give advise becauase only you know what is right.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Thanks Hayley, really appreciate what you are doing. I know you want to give him I chance and so do I. I havent got an email from you?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> All rescues are busy and full but has never stopped anyone posting details on here. Sorry, but if you are giving 'professional' advice in such a serious capacity on an open forum, then I think it absolutely right that the rescue details are given. Extreme, and I'm not for one minute suggesting it is, but for all any reader knows, it _could_ be a puppy farm looking for a new stud dog!
> 
> And IF they will take on this dog - cos I don't know a rescue that would, it would make them fairly unique so a really valuable asset. The fact they are full and busy is no reason not to give their details.


I am passing on details to the OP, why would posting details be an asset? getting possibly more dogs in? or are people planning on rehoming? getting more dogs in is not a good thing but will take on dogs which are in urgent need.

Plus the person would see the place so no its not a puppy farm etc.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Have emailed you detaills, so what do you think your going to do?
> 
> Every has boundaries that they work to, so like if they growled at a child the dog would be pts, at a vets i worked at a dog bit the owners finger but to her that was enough and the dog was pts.
> 
> I respect your situation and feelings, at the end of the day you know what is best for your dog as we dont know the full situation or the dog.


i don`t really care what your stance is and what you happen to believe a dog that displays this kind of aggression again and again and again should NOT be given chance after chance after chance to continue doing what the dog is doing the situation is very clear , carly CANNOT take the dog back home for fear of her toddler , she cannot leave him where he is either , carly does know what she needs to do and there is NO reason to guilt trip her into keeping this dog alive a day longer than he needs to be.
carly loves her dog that is very clear but this situation where people are at risk cannot continue for everyones sake!!!!


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Thanks Hayley, really appreciate what you are doing. I know you want to give him I chance and so do I. I havent got an email from you?


Sorry its re-sending slowly, address was wrong! You are the only person who really knows this dog and can make a decision. I made the decision the other day at work to put a dog to sleep, he was a staffie and was serious food aggressive, would lunge at your throat.. extreme aggression and had already attacked 3 people.He wasnt good at any point, was aggressive constantly but would be serious with food.

I also pts my greyhound because he was aggressive, would of had to wear a muzzle in and out tbh. Possibly could have been sorted but she was an old girl and for me her time had come, i knew what was right for her because she was my dog. You know your dog, you know whats right.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

carlycl said:


> I have just called the cocker spaniel resue coordinator for the country and she said she would 100% advise to pts. Said as he has that level of aggression he couldnt be rehomed and it wasnt fair to put him through it, she was really sympathetic and spoke a lot of sense. Hayley what is your rescue centre called? Now my little boy is wondering around the house looking for Oscar, calling him and asking if he is on his holidays. They were like best friends before all this kicked off :-(


She said she was sending you details, presumably by private message so have a look in your folder if you are not getting an email. It is never a good idea to post your private email address on a private forum.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> I am passing on details to the OP, why would posting details be an asset? getting possibly more dogs in? or are people planning on rehoming? getting more dogs in is not a good thing but will take on dogs which are in urgent need.
> 
> Plus the person would see the place so no its not a puppy farm etc.


are you for real ??? 
posting details on the rescue you happen to work for would aid people a GREAT deal if you take in confirmed biters , can you not see that ????


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> It is very difficult to give advice on this situation over a forum, because we dont know the actual situation and do not know the dog.
> 
> There are a lot of factors that could influence a situation which we do not know about. I would never ever put my dog to sleep unless i had a proper assesment by a expert in dangerous dog behaviour and handling. And having a proper examination by a vet. If my dog had mauled someone then depending on the reasons yes i would pts. Personally i feel something in this situation is different by as said i do not know the dog, havent seen it in these rages and dont know the owner, and the situation at the point of this rage.
> 
> ...


I have been following this thread since yesterday evening and feel I have to say something....haleyth! have you totally missed the point! the OP has stated the dog was ok 99%...BUT she is, and rightly so, not willing to put her child at risk for the 1% it maybe ok, and she is now scared of him and can never take him back!!....PLEASE stop giving this poor woman false hope!! Have you not read the post someone put on about what the breed rescue states?....
My heart truly goes out to the OP, and I will confess she has done more than enough to help her dog.... I am speaking from experience of owning a cocker many many years ago who I so adored, she started with aggressive tendencies too, even bit my daughter, I was mortified...I took her to the vet for all tests to be done, he just looked me in the eye and said, I can do all the tests you like but this dog will never be able to be helped, I will put her down now if you want!! well, you can imagine the shock of hearing this when all I thought it he was going to say "it's just because she due to come into season, so just do..." he said there is a gene in "some" cockers that cause schizophrenia, (his word he used?) I walked out of that vets YES with my beloved dog, no way was I going to put her to sleep.... I made every excuse under the sun why my dog was like she was, in my head she was perfectly healthy and not mad!....and then eventually after 2yrs of hell trying to help my dog I MADE THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE....I re homed her, yes, to a family with no children, and they knew her history! but within a few weeks I learnt she had to be pts....I felt SO guilty in that I prolonged my poor dogs misery, I should have taken the vets advice at that time....PLEASE PLEASE don't think I'm saying this to make you feel bad OP, because you have done EVERYTHING possible! I'm just speaking of my experience with my beloved cocker and we all have to face the fact that some have this mental illness and cant be helped, so we have to be brave and do whats best for the dog.

My heart and thoughts are with you at this distressing time BIG (((HUGS))) to you xx


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

diablo said:


> i don`t really care what your stance is and what you happen to believe a dog that displays this kind of aggression again and again and again should NOT be given chance after chance after chance to continue doing what the dog is doing the situation is very clear , carly CANNOT take the dog back home for fear of her toddler , she cannot leave him where he is either , carly does know what she needs to do and there is NO reason to guilt trip her into keeping this dog alive a day longer than he needs to be.
> carly loves her dog that is very clear but this situation where people are at risk cannot continue for everyones sake!!!!


If she knew the right thing she would have already done it, she came on this forum for help and advice? if she felt seriously guilt tripped she would leave and not talk to us? Its her dog she knows what is best.

Everyone has different boundaries of when they would put a dog to sleep, mine maybe different, maybe if i saw the dog it would be different as i may not be getting all information. But you come on a forum then you are going to get slightly guilt tripped by not dealing with it sooner and passing it to someone else who is not experienced.

She will do what she feels is right for HER dog and the situation which tbh we know little about as this is a forum over the internet..


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Hayleyth, which rescue in East Anglia do you work for if you don't mind me asking? I live in East Anglia too so was just curious, you can PM me if you like


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

No offence but we had someone who took a dog on from another poster here with agression issues and it transpired she was hoping to use him as a stud to breed Malamute/Sibe crosses so people here are wary of anyone who wants to give advice or take on a high level dog like this.

You claim you work for a rescue but give NO details on it, what are you hiding, is it a reg charity, what breeds do you take in?
We can all claim to be rescue groups and behaviourists on the interent, its not hard.

I also have to agree, 1% is too much.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> If she knew the right thing she would have already done it, she came on this forum for help and advice? if she felt seriously guilt tripped she would leave and not talk to us? Its her dog she knows what is best.
> 
> Everyone has different boundaries of when they would put a dog to sleep, mine maybe different, maybe if i saw the dog it would be different as i may not be getting all information. But you come on a forum then you are going to get slightly guilt tripped by not dealing with it sooner and passing it to someone else who is not experienced.
> 
> She will do what she feels is right for HER dog and the situation which tbh we know little about as this is a forum over the internet..


carly does know what she needs to do , she`s posted saying so and i think all this guilt tripping to get this dog handed into `whatever` rescue will take him should stop and stop right now!
you`ve already admitted so here that you don`t really take in confirmed biters , instead just really prolonging dogs suffering and agony.



hayleyth said:


> I made the decision the other day at work to put a dog to sleep, *he was a staffie and was serious food aggressive, would lunge at your throat.. extreme aggression and had already attacked 3 people.He wasnt good at any point, was aggressive constantly but would be serious with food.*


if you couldn`t sort out a dog with serious food aggression your NOT going to sort out a dog that flips and takes hour and half to get out of a car that is constantly biting people when he has these episodes!!!! serious reality check needed


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

hayleyth said:


> If she knew the right thing she would have already done it, she came on this forum for help and advice? if she felt seriously guilt tripped she would leave and not talk to us? Its her dog she knows what is best.
> 
> Everyone has different boundaries of when they would put a dog to sleep, mine maybe different, maybe if i saw the dog it would be different as i may not be getting all information. But you come on a forum then you are going to get slightly guilt tripped by not dealing with it sooner and passing it to someone else who is not experienced.
> 
> She will do what she feels is right for HER dog and the situation which tbh we know little about as this is a forum over the internet..


Lots of people with a seriously ill dog will come here for help and advice, but what they really want is to be told that there is nothing more that can be done. They need the support of other dog lovers. Everyone, I think, has told OP the best thing for this dog, except you. You are just giving her false hope.

I had a mongrel who hated children, except mine, though he didn't like my son much. That situation could be easily managed in our household because there was space and we never let any other children near him.

This is different altogether. It is beyond being managed.


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

diablo said:


> carly does know what she needs to do , she`s posted saying so and i think all this guilt tripping to get this dog handed into `whatever` rescue will take him should stop and stop right now!
> you`ve already admitted so here that you don`t really take in confirmed biters , instead just really prolonging dogs suffering and agony.
> 
> if you couldn`t sort out a dog with serious food aggression your NOT going to sort out a dog that flips and takes hour and half to get out of a car that is constantly biting people when he has these episodes!!!! serious reality check needed


All cases are slightly different? A dog persistently lunging at your throat is different from this. A tbh we dont even know exactly what the dog does? No serious reality check not needed...  I have work now so OP contact me with what you are planning to do.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

I agree with hayleyth, all avenues *must* be explored before any decision is made. The dog must be assessed in person by a qualified professional, and not sentenced to "death by forum".

However, with this case there is a sense of urgency. The OP can not take it back due to the risk with having a toddler. Nor can it stay it its current home, as the new owners have expressed the danger posed.

So a decision needs to be made in the next 24hrs ideally. The sooner the better.

So hayleyth, how soon could you pick up the dog if the OP takes up your offer?


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## hayleyth (May 9, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> I agree with hayleyth, all avenues *must* be explored before any decision is made. The dog must be assessed in person by a qualified professional, and not sentenced to "death by forum".
> 
> However, with this case there is a sense of urgency. The OP can not take it back due to the risk with having a toddler. Nor can it stay it its current home, as the new owners have expressed the danger posed.
> 
> ...


Sorry this comment is rushed as got to get back to work. Its not me who would pick this dog up, that is not my job. I need to consult my manager when at work about this situation more. Sorry will reply later!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Attack Mode said:


> I agree with hayleyth, all avenues *must* be explored before any decision is made. *The dog must be assessed in person by a qualified professional, and not sentenced to "death by forum*".
> 
> However, with this case there is a sense of urgency. The OP can not take it back due to the risk with having a toddler. Nor can it stay it its current home, as the new owners have expressed the danger posed.
> 
> ...


I thought he already had been assessed, by the vet and a vet behaviourist. It is hardly fair to call this "death by forum" when OP was advised to get these two professionals involved at the beginning and as far as I can tell, that has been done.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I thought he already had been assessed, by the vet and a vet behaviourist. It is hardly fair to call this "death by forum" when OP was advised to get these two professionals involved at the beginning and as far as I can tell, that has been done.


And also already tried a number of rescues who have refused to take him on and said he should be pts.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Some time ago I knew of a horse that had become very dangerous to ride. The poor thing thrashed around it's stable injuring itself and when ridden would either stand up on it's back legs and throw itself over backwards, or bolt in terror. I saw that horse change owners 3 times, and each new owner thought they could "sort it out" but failed and sold it on. It wasn't the horses fault. No doubt humans had made it that way. It was miserable and stressed beyond belief. I tried to buy that horse just so I could have it PTS and save it from a life of being passed around and subjected to who knows what methods.
I know that this has nowt to do with dogs, but the point of this story is that there is only one way to ensure a safe future for this dog, and that is PTS. If for any reason my dog showed aggression to that level, I would never rehome her to anyone. I would need to KNOW that she was safe and never passed on to anyone else.
There is no doubt that the OP loves her dog dearly. Truly loving an animal means you must always act in their best interest, no matter how painful.
To the OP, there have been lots of suggestions of "guilt tripping" I am not trying to make you feel guilty. Quite the opposite. People here understand and sympathise. No one thinks ill of you in any way. I think you already know the right thing to do. XXXXX


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

hayleyth said:


> Sorry this comment is rushed as got to get back to work. Its not me who would pick this dog up, that is not my job. I need to consult my manager when at work about this situation more. Sorry will reply later!


So you have been saying "we can take him", "we could collect", and so on when you are unsure if you can? Instead it is down to your manager making a decision?

While those decisions are made, there is a dog in limbo. It's current home can not keep him, nor can the OP take him back.

So as it stands your rescue (dependent on your managers decision) is the last chance for this dog. The OP has contacted rescues closer to home, but all have advised her to PTS. So any chance of a more local avenue has been extinguished.

If you want to give the dog that chance, it needs to happen pretty damn quick.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

From what I can gather - poor Oscar has been assesed by a behaviourist and his vets.
Some rescues have already been approached and have advised they cannot take him.

This is a dog who is mentally unhealthy - be it due to rage syndrome or behavioural problems - at this stage I don't think it matters.

He can't go back home due to the extreme risk to the toddler - he can't stay where he is due to aggressively guarding the kitchen and keeping the home owners out of it all day 

Personally I wouldn't want this poor little dog to go through any more stress - even the stress of transporting him sounds horrendous to me.

If he was mine - I think I would be taking the heart breaking decision to have him PTS.
I couldn't live with myself if I found out he went on to attack someone, or that he would be spending weeks/months in kennels.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

The heartbreaking aspect of this thread is the false hope being offered here with the implication that the OP has failed the dog in some way by 'allowing' this behaviour to develop.

All dogs should be given a chance *up to a point*. As much as it is awful to even think about if I had to flee my house in fear, risked my limbs for every car journey and put anyone who came near us at risk I am afraid that my dog would be PTS - the OP's dog is clearly a very unhappy, stressed animal.

A friend of mine had her GSD PTS after he badly attacked one of her children (following both vet and behaviourist assessment). She had also attempted to place him in rescue who wouldn't take a confirmed biter who had caused a child to require hospital treatment. For those of you who think that PTS is the easy option I can assure you that it wasn't for her - the dog had belonged to her husband who had died young and very quickly from a brain tumour and had been his pride and joy. I fully supported her in her decision.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dogless said:


> The heartbreaking aspect of this thread is the false hope being offered here with the implication that the OP has failed the dog in some way by 'allowing' this behaviour to develop.
> 
> All dogs should be given a chance *up to a point*. As much as it is awful to even think about if I had to flee my house in fear, risked my limbs for every car journey and put anyone who came near us at risk I am afraid that my dog would be PTS - the OP's dog is clearly a very unhappy, stressed animal.
> 
> A friend of mine had her GSD PTS after he badly attacked one of her children (following both vet and behaviourist assessment). She had also attempted to place him in rescue who wouldn't take a confirmed biter who had caused a child to require hospital treatment. For those of you who think that PTS is the easy option I can assure you that it wasn't for her - the dog had belonged to her husband who had died young and very quickly from a brain tumour and had been his pride and joy. I fully supported her in her decision.


An almost identitical scenario with my friend's cocker. She always muzzled him when a child came round or when out, but this day daughter brought baby unexpectedly, she went to get his muzzle by which time he had badly bitten the baby and she had to go to hospital. She was heartbroken and tried every rescue, but they would not take him despite his being fine with adults.

This dog has shown serious aggression to lots of people, not just one class of person who could be kept away like I did with our mongrel.


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## toryb (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh gosh how devistating :frown: Having read the whole thread and not replying becuase I didnt know what to say I honistly think I would PTS in this situation...I have 3 young children and couldnt ever take a risk of keeping him and wouldnt want to rehome him for him to spend his life stuck in a kennel/attacking someone else and ending up being PTS by a stranger anyway...how sad 

((hugs)).


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

lucylastic said:


> Some time ago I knew of a horse that had become very dangerous to ride. The poor thing thrashed around it's stable injuring itself and when ridden would either stand up on it's back legs and throw itself over backwards, or bolt in terror. I saw that horse change owners 3 times, and each new owner thought they could "sort it out" but failed and sold it on. It wasn't the horses fault. No doubt humans had made it that way. It was miserable and stressed beyond belief. I tried to buy that horse just so I could have it PTS and save it from a life of being passed around and subjected to who knows what methods.
> I know that this has nowt to do with dogs, but the point of this story is that there is only one way to ensure a safe future for this dog, and that is PTS. If for any reason my dog showed aggression to that level, I would never rehome her to anyone. I would need to KNOW that she was safe and never passed on to anyone else.
> There is no doubt that the OP loves her dog dearly. Truly loving an animal means you must always act in their best interest, no matter how painful.
> To the OP, there have been lots of suggestions of "guilt tripping" I am not trying to make you feel guilty. Quite the opposite. People here understand and sympathise. No one thinks ill of you in any way. I think you already know the right thing to do. XXXXX


VERY WELL SAID! :thumbup:


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## JustmeGemmy (Jun 30, 2011)

We have a rescue near us who have taken on aggressive dogs. In fact, one of the guys who owns the rescue took on a VERY aggressive Greyhound - the dog has to wear a muzzle inside & outside of the house. 99% of the time, this dog is great, but it's that uncertainty of the 1% & when it might hit. So some people really do take on aggressive dogs. 

This might be a stupid question, but has anyone actually tried muzzling the dog?

The Greyhound I mentioned above has a lovely life now & is part of a big pack of dogs (all either owned or fostered by this lovely guy). Despite being muzzled, the Greyhound is very happy. 

I'm honestly not sure what I would do if it were me in this situation. I don't think I could even imagine having to have a dog PTS, so I really don't feel as though I can comment on that. I know it must be heartbreaking for the OP  

I take it the dog is still at the friend/family member's house? Maybe a muzzle wouldn't be a bad idea until you've made your decision? At least that way, you know everyone is safe!


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

OP, while hayleyth finds out if her rescue can take the dog etc, what are the plans for the dog?

Say hayleyth's rescue can not take it/collect until the end of the week for example. Where will it live until then? Are you happy to take it in? Is the family member willing to lose their kitchen for a few days?

The new owners have already expressed a desire to withdraw from the arrangement. So how soon are we talking before they decide that it needs to be removed from their house? Can they cope until tonight? Tomorrow? Wednesday? 

If forced to collect him from theirs, how long can you run the risk of something happening? Tonight? Tomorrow? Wednesday?..............

I hope hayleyth has given you a phone number. As it stands she (or rather her rescue) is your only possible chance except PTS. This is something that needs to be sorted over the phone, and not dragged out by e-mails or private messages.

As already said, the clock is ticking whether he is given a rescue space or PTS. A decision needs to be made asap for the safety of everyone.


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Im new here and dont want to be seen as interfering... 

However, i am an accessor at a rescue shelter, so when dogs come in I am in charge of accessing their behaviour and then decide what can be done an make up a action plan. 

Our rescue would advise on this dog being pts, it is not safe for members of the public or the dog. It would most certainly not get re -homed as there are many dogs needing home at this moment in time. 

Certain levels of aggression are acceptable in rescue, but others are not. But also this dog should not have been passed on, its your dog and you should sort it, not someone else. 

This dog does not need any more stress, get the vet to come out and have it pts, will be nice and peaceful for the dog. This is the best best option.

Feel for you, i really do. Hugs!!!!! 

Sorry if i sound harsh? :S


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

IMO I don't believe the Behaviourist or your vet have failed you or your dog
If it is cocker rage syndrome which is both very real and very tragic being incurable/untreatable then there is nothing else they could have done. 
Even if it is another neurological condition I still dont think they have failed you.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> OP, while hayleyth finds out if her rescue can take the dog etc, what are the plans for the dog?
> 
> Say hayleyth's rescue can not take it/collect until the end of the week for example. Where will it live until then? Are you happy to take it in? Is the family member willing to lose their kitchen for a few days?
> 
> ...


it`s highly irresponsible and unrealistic that this poor dog should be passed on to anyone , rescue or otherwise.
there are alarm bells ringing throughout this thread and thats neither here nor there , any dog that displays the kind of aggression that has been explained here does not deserve any chances when the dog has clearly already had enough of those.
i`m afraid it`s time to be honest , stop skirting around the issue this dog needs to be put to sleep and put to sleep today to end his misery and suffering the OP needs to act responsibly in regards to keeping others safe and not just members of her own family.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Fleur said:


> From the limited information I have available to me - it sounds like very serious aggression issues - I personally would not feel comfortable rehoming him and risk someone else being attacked.
> He sounds like an extremely stressed dog - personally I think I would have to make the difficult decision to PTS.


I agree, poor do but its got to be done in that situation.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

I know it is the right thing to do. In desperation I signed up to a breed specific forum and its quite incredible the response I am getting not to put him down. There is a behaviourist that is highly recommended but as I said to them, where will we do it (if of course there is a chance of rehabillitation)? Right now he doesnt have a home (even saying that breaks my heart). People saying put him behind a gate etc - still risking little fingers! Right now Oscar is fine, not confined to the kitchen but the way he has been it could go anytime. I phoned a great guy from Cocker and English Spaniel Rescue he said I had one option really ...


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

i also really feel the need to point out.

with dog laws constantly changing with the OP knowing the behaviour of her dog it`s fair to point out and state there could infact be legal ramifications for her regarding passing on a dog that is knowingly behaving like this , i really don`t care what a rescue state , what they preach or what they say the can do when more than most won`t take in confirmed biters.
i suppose what i am trying to say IS folks always LOVE a scape goat and i think the OP needs to be really careful regarding their next move if deciding to give this dog another chance with someone else.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> A behaviourist yes, a trainer no. I believe the vet has already seen Oscar and a behaviourist. The difficulty is seeing the dog when he has one of these episodes as they appear unpredictable, but becoming more frequent. And where the dog is going to stay until such assessments are done.


What did the behaviourist recommend? What was the diagnosis from the vet? (just out of interest)


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

So sorry for you Carlycl, and for your dog.

You have been put put in a horrendous position, but have clearly been doing all you could to try and help your dog. But if the specialists - vets and behaviour can't help - then you really must not blame yourself, when you have sough help and followed their advice rigidly.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and yes, maybe you should not have passed your dog on to a new home - but what if something at yours had been the trigger, and he had gone back to being the lovely dog he can be?........ I can't blame you for trying, but now you know the outcome, you need to move forward. They obviously thought they could help.

People shouldn't be so unkind,blaming you like that. no one knows, until they are in a situation, how they will act.

That's in the past now. Moving forward, I am thinking, who actuially owns the dog now - yourselves or the new owners? Ie, who decides what is to happen next?

You clearly can't take him back as he is - it would be dangerous for your 2 year old, and not fair on the dog or yourselves. You would be so tense, which would add to the situation.

I am wondering whether sedative in food would help with the moving of him?

I am also wondering at what age he began acting like this- was it after the arrival of the babe? or a move of house or other change? or when he reached adolescence? It sounds like it is escalating. 

Re what to do next?

I honestly think you know already, but that has to be your decision and yours only - not a decision that you are pressured in to. Making the decision to have a pet and friend PTS is one of the hardest things we sometimes have to do - but if the time is right - for whatever the reason - it is the kindest and best thing you can do too.

Your dog is clearly not happy, and the "rages" for want of a better word, are clearly very prolonged. If he is good natured one minute, then switches, I would say - what are the patterns, what are the triggers if any? 

But I am sure you have gone through that already, haven't you.

If this breed is prone to similar behaviours, and you still want to talk to experts (of which I am definitely not one, as I have only been lucky enough to have one dog in my life), before you make that final decision, I would say - talk to a cocker specialist (is there a specific rescue who may have seen similar behaviours?).

If the flip to agression happens totally randomly, rather than linked to place, touch, food, then I might think extreme pain -or problems with eyesight? - or neorological problems (tumour? seizure?).

Sadly our Our local rescue would I am sure put him to sleep, as a dog that can be fine much of the time, then flips unpredictabley, could never be guaranteed as having been rehabilitated. And they don't take that decision lightly.

So, when you have done all you can, spoken with experts in this field, explored possible medical issues, if in your heart you know what has to happen next, don't blame youself. You are not only being a responsible parent and owner, you are thinking about Oscar's well being too. 

Personally? I would sadly find a way to get him to the vets asap, sedated if possible for everyones safety and to minimise his distress, and have him PTS, Thsi is last loving act that an owner can do for a much loved pet, and is nothing to be ashamed of .


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

carlycl said:


> I know it is the right thing to do. In desperation I signed up to a breed specific forum and its quite incredible the response I am getting not to put him down. There is a behaviourist that is highly recommended but as I said to them, where will we do it (if of course there is a chance of rehabillitation)? Right now he doesnt have a home (even saying that breaks my heart). People saying put him behind a gate etc - still risking little fingers! Right now Oscar is fine, not confined to the kitchen but the way he has been it could go anytime. I phoned a great guy from Cocker and English Spaniel Rescue he said I had one option really ...


My heart truely goes out to you 
I am sat here trying to imagine myself in your position, whilst praying I'm never put in it.
Like you say where does Oscar go whilst a new behaviourist assesses him 
I think you need to take the advice of the Cocker and Springer Rescue - of anyone they know the realities.
The saftey of your human family are to important - remember Oscar as he was.
As I said earlier my friend had to PTS her show Cocker - you never new how she was going to be, she was fine 95% + of the time but the 1-5% of the time she was in a 'rage' was terrifying for all involved including the poor dog


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

diablo said:


> it`s highly irresponsible and unrealistic that this poor dog should be passed on to anyone , rescue or otherwise.
> there are alarm bells ringing throughout this thread and thats neither here nor there , any dog that displays the kind of aggression that has been explained here does not deserve any chances when the dog has clearly already had enough of those.
> i`m afraid it`s time to be honest , stop skirting around the issue this dog needs to be put to sleep and put to sleep today to end his misery and suffering the OP needs to act responsibly in regards to keeping others safe and not just members of her own family.


I am simply highlighting the dog has been given one chance of obtaining a rescue space. Though as it now stands, it is a little unclear if hayleyth should of given this impression prior to speaking to her manager.

Surely this avenue should be explored beforehand. As the chance of a rescue space is the one only avenue not already explored fully.

However if this rescue space is to be given, at the risk of repeating myself again. - It needs to happen real soon before another incident happens.

The rescue that hayleyth works for also needs to ensure they are aware on the legal side of rehoming aggressive dogs with history of attacking humans.

Same goes for the OP, don't give him to anyone without giving the FULL picture on his behaviour.

Not that it is illegal to rehome an aggressive dog, unless it is a banned "type".


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I thought he already had been assessed, by the vet and a vet behaviourist. It is hardly fair to call this "death by forum" when OP was advised to get these two professionals involved at the beginning and as far as I can tell, that has been done.


This is what I want to know. Was the behaviourist who worked with this dog a vet who deals with behaviour issues. Glasgow Uni Small Animal Hospital has a Behaviourist and they go down all avenues, blood work and I am pretty sure an MRI would be done to rule out brain tumour and such the like. I would also think that if the behaviourist was also a vet and they couldn't sort the issues then they would have recommended PTS.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> My OH went to see them sat down with someone and they said they wouldnt be able to rehome him and basically advised to pts, this is before the problems escalated in the last few days. So the 'never put a healthy dog to sleep' is BS. He might not be healthy but they dont know that..


It does annoy me when people say things like that..

The Dogs Trust is not a dumping ground for every dog with behavioural or medical issues that the owner can't keep - they have limited space even as a large rescue and would imagine their place where such dogs go cannot have an open door policy to say yes to every single person who rings up asking for a space. I know they are innundated each day with requests to take dogs.... and that once a dog is in there care this may be the case, but they surely can't be expected to take in every single dog that needs a special set up just like that each time they are asked?

Whenever things like this are posted there is always people who say can be rehomed and assessed but very few people who are actually willing to do this, it should be done by 'them'. If someone can do it, they are someone you don't know off the interent, and they haven't seen the dog so would proceed with great caution and check out any offers thoroughly - and they should to you as well re Oscar. Would be cautious of any offers to help from anyone who does not ask you lots of questions etc and can convince you of their experience and set up etc. If it failed again then what?

Not aimed at anyone at all btw of the offers for help; just urging caution to make sure any offers are from the right places.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Keep on topic please and lets not have any personal attacks on other members thanks.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I know it is the right thing to do. In desperation I signed up to a breed specific forum and its quite incredible the response I am getting not to put him down. There is a behaviourist that is highly recommended but as I said to them, where will we do it (if of course there is a chance of rehabillitation)? Right now he doesnt have a home (even saying that breaks my heart). People saying put him behind a gate etc - still risking little fingers! Right now Oscar is fine, not confined to the kitchen but the way he has been it could go anytime. I phoned a great guy from Cocker and English Spaniel Rescue he said I had one option really ...





Attack Mode said:


> I am simply highlighting the dog has been given one chance of obtaining a rescue space. Though as it now stands, it is a little unclear if hayleyth should of given this impression prior to speaking to her manager.
> 
> Surely this avenue should be explored beforehand. As the chance of a rescue space is the one only avenue not already explored fully.
> 
> ...


i`ve read elsewhere carly is posting there is slightly more info across there and carly has admitted the dog and the toddler CANNOT be in the same home as the toddler risks loosing his HANDS through a gate!!!!
of course they are all saying ``don`t pts`` the dog because they admit they are SO devoted to cocker spaniels yet cocker spaniel breed clubs stance is perfectly clear - they WILL NOT agree to take in aggressive cocker spaniels.
so if a breed rescue will not take him that KNOW the breed well , what chance is there left for him???
carly says her vet is highly respected in his field across the other place and has served her well and done every test imaginable which have all come back clear.
there could be legal ramifications for carly IF a rescue were to state she weren`t honest about this dogs true nature should he be given chance to attack again even though he`s a legal breed , the cocker breed club DO advise this it`s all on their website.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

diablo said:


> i`ve read elsewhere carly is posting there is slightly more info across there and carly has admitted the dog and the toddler CANNOT be in the same home as the toddler risks loosing his HANDS through a gate!!!!
> of course they are all saying ``don`t pts`` the dog because they admit they are SO devoted to cocker spaniels yet cocker spaniel breed clubs stance is perfectly clear - they WILL NOT agree to take in aggressive cocker spaniels.
> so if a breed rescue will not take him that KNOW the breed well , what chance is there left for him???
> carly says her vet is highly respected in his field across the other place and has served her well and done every test imaginable which have all come back clear.
> there could be legal ramifications for carly *IF a rescue were to state she weren`t honest about this dogs true nature* should he be given chance to attack again even though he`s a legal breed , the cocker breed club DO advise this it`s all on their website.


That is what I said. The full picture needs to be given.

Are you saying that the OP has posted elsewhere that gives more details on the dogs behaviour?

As in the posts here do not give the full impression of how bad the dog is etc?


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> That is what I said. The full picture needs to be given.
> 
> Are you saying that the OP has posted elsewhere that gives more details on the dogs behaviour?
> 
> As in the posts here do not give the full impression of how bad the dog is etc?


there is slightly more information yes and its perfectly clear to an outsider looking in this dog IS NOT a safe dog.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> My OH went to see them sat down with someone and they said they wouldnt be able to rehome him and basically advised to pts, this is before the problems escalated in the last few days. So the 'never put a healthy dog to sleep' is BS. He might not be healthy but they dont know that..


It does annoy me when people say things like that..

The Dogs Trust is not a dumping ground for every dog with behavioural or medical issues that the owner can't keep - they have limited space even as a large rescue and would imagine their place where such dogs go cannot have an open door policy to say yes to every single person who rings up asking for a space. I know they are innundated each day with requests to take dogs.... and that once a dog is in there care this may be the case, but they surely can't be expected to take in every single dog that needs a special set up just like that each time they are asked?

Whenever things like this are posted there is always people who say can be rehomed and assessed but very few people who are actually willing to do this, it should be done by 'them'. If someone can do it, they are someone you don't know off the interent, and they haven't seen the dog so would proceed with great caution and check out any offers thoroughly - and they should to you as well re Oscar. Would be cautious of any offers to help from anyone who does not ask you lots of questions etc and can convince you of their experience and set up etc. If it failed again then what?

Not aimed at anyone at all btw of the offers for help; just urging caution to make sure any offers are from the right places.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

I think this thread is incredibly sad 

By the sounds of it the dog is extremely stressed - He is not able to be around the family and not safe to be in their home. No one can even get near him 

The owner has had professionals in and has tried the rehoming option - Whether rightly or wrongly.

There have been a few threads on PF in the past where people jump in with the 'save the dog' opinion which I think sometimes can be slightly ignorant. There are most likely very very few qualified people who are able to actually help this dog.

My opinion is that given the rescue situation in this country do we want a dog with severe issues - who may not ever be able to live within a home environment using up resources / time / money of a charity where X amount of 'healthy' dogs could have used that time / money / resorce in order to go onto new homes?

Its not a pretty picture but I do sometimes feel that in order to put the dog first then the nicest thing to do is to realease the dog from this stressful life.

To me it says it all that the breed clubs wont take in aggressive cockers.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

This is so sad and OP, my heart really does go out to you  Your love and devotion to Oscar is clear to see and this must be so very difficult for you 

It sounds to me like Oscar is a very unhappy and stressed dog and if he were mine I would be letting him go right now and releasing him from the hell he must be living through. I would go with him and say goodbye and let him go 

All the best to you x


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Would that be a rescue that rehomes, or a "sancturary" type that will keep him for life?

I cannot think that poor Oscar could possibly be rehomed to anyone, however exerienced, if he continues with these lengthy agressive rages, unless the underlying cause could be identified and treated. And if that were possible, I am sure his owner would have already done all that needed to be done, and wouldn't be seeking desperate help now.

She already knows he wouldn't cope in a pen situation, so would that not be more cruel than having him PTS. She, after all, knows Oscar so well, the good and the bad. it is clear that she loves him, and won't make the ultimate decision lightly, but and as soon as she signs him over, she loses all rights to his future.

I know very little, but I am thinking that, after the vets, the cocker rescue would give the best advice, as they are breed aware.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

diablo said:


> i`ve read elsewhere carly is posting there is slightly more info across there and carly has admitted the dog and the toddler CANNOT be in the same home as the toddler risks loosing his HANDS through a gate!!!!
> of course they are all saying ``don`t pts`` the dog because they admit they are SO devoted to cocker spaniels yet cocker spaniel breed clubs stance is perfectly clear - they WILL NOT agree to take in aggressive cocker spaniels.
> so if a breed rescue will not take him that KNOW the breed well , what chance is there left for him???
> carly says her vet is highly respected in his field across the other place and has served her well and done every test imaginable which have all come back clear.
> there could be legal ramifications for carly IF a rescue were to state she weren`t honest about this dogs true nature should he be given chance to attack again even though he`s a legal breed , the cocker breed club DO advise this it`s all on their website.


And I'm horrified to read that someone has suggested that because rescue won't accept him she has only two options, one of which is privately rehoming him  :mad2:


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

I just need to say Im sorry. The last thing I wanted was to start people bickering on here. I came here for advice from people who know dogs, had experiences and can help to do whats right.

PLEASE do not argue. You have all helped me in different ways and I am grateful to you all.

I posted on another forum, breed specific for the same reason, im at my wits end. 

It is a fact that many people say 'there are people who he can be rehomed with etc' but in reality that isnt the case.

Ive rang rescues, spoke to specialists and there seems to be one conclusion only.

Like I have said before, Im pretty sure Oscar has neurological illness.

Once again, thanks so much and please keep this sore subject without arguments

C x


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

carlycl said:


> Yes he has, the vet said there was no apparent thyroid issue or anything else. Simply recommended us to a behaviourist which is the road we were going down before it escalated. We have had behaviourists before which didnt really have any effect


I'm just wondering, did Oscar have a full thyroid panel done (blood tests) to rule out problems with the thyroid, or was the diagnosis made by observing him/looking for outward symptoms?


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

diablo said:


> there is slightly more information yes and its perfectly clear to an outsider looking in this dog IS NOT a safe dog.


I have made it very clear that he is not a safe dog. As I said he has attacked us both, my brother and relative. The information is pretty much the same. The reason I spoke about a gate was hyperthetical as someone suggested taking Oscar back and putting him behind a gate!!! Thats when I said how can I risk little fingers.

Please dont think im not giving you the full story, if i wrote the full story down it would be pages and pages.

Im giving you the worst instances that we have dealt with


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Snuggles said:


> I'm just wondering, did Oscar have a full thyroid panel done (blood tests) to rule out problems with the thyroid, or was the diagnosis made by observing him/looking for outward symptoms?


Yes thats right, the bloods werent done but he was adamant it wasnt a thyroid issue


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> And I'm horrified to read that someone has suggested that because rescue won't accept him she has only two options, one of which is privately rehoming him  :mad2:


i did read that  a lot of the posts made painful reading to someone who thinks most of the time with a clear and level head , horrified don`t come close to explaining what i read across there.
this dog cannot be privately rehomed , the risks ARE too great , carly cannot risk taking him back herself and it`s really unfair to expect someone else to do the same whether they have children or not.
it`s clear this dog is a liability with everyone he comes into contact with , to pass him on is irresponsible and asking or expecting rescue to take him IS a really big ask when so little is known about the folks professing they can help , it`s all pie in the sky and very easy to say to someone when they are not in this position themselves.
it`s all very sad but the right thing needs to be done here for all involved , including the dog.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> My OH went to see them sat down with someone and they said they wouldnt be able to rehome him and basically advised to pts, this is before the problems escalated in the last few days. So the 'never put a healthy dog to sleep' is BS. He might not be healthy but they dont know that..


It does annoy me when people say things like that..

The Dogs Trust is not a dumping ground for every dog with behavioural or medical issues that the owner can't keep - they have limited space even as a large rescue and would imagine their place where such dogs go cannot have an open door policy to say yes to every single person who rings up asking for a space. I know they are innundated each day with requests to take dogs.... and that once a dog is in there care this may be the case, but they surely can't be expected to take in every single dog that needs a special set up just like that each time they are asked?

Whenever things like this are posted there is always people who say can be rehomed and assessed but very few people who are actually willing to do this, it should be done by 'them'. If someone can do it, they are someone you don't know off the interent, and they haven't seen the dog so would proceed with great caution and check out any offers thoroughly - and they should to you as well re Oscar. Would be cautious of any offers to help from anyone who does not ask you lots of questions etc and can convince you of their experience and set up etc. If it failed again then what?

Not aimed at anyone at all btw of the offers for help; just urging caution to make sure any offers are from the right places.

The big question also is what is best for him; if he is suffering with potential neurological illness, then in addition to if he can safely be rehomed, for whose sake is he being rehomed?


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I have made it very clear that he is not a safe dog. As I said he has attacked us both, my brother and relative. The information is pretty much the same. The reason I spoke about a gate was hyperthetical as someone suggested taking Oscar back and putting him behind a gate!!! Thats when I said how can I risk little fingers.
> 
> Please dont think im not giving you the full story, if i wrote the full story down it would be pages and pages.
> 
> Im giving you the worst instances that we have dealt with


carly it is very clear to me he is not a safe dog , you`ve done all the explaining you need to do as far as i am concerned and i am disgusted with what has been advised on the other place - people really cannot begin to appreciate the position you are in right now , they aren`t there minute by minute and cannot see what is happening , it is clear you are terrified for your safety and that of your toddler but you do need to ask yourself can you inflict this on anyone else ???? and in all honesty going by your posts i don`t think you can.
you`ve already had your answer regarding breed rescues stance on this over the telephone that was without me posting the information i did.
you can`t take your dog back , the people that were willing to offer your dog have backed out , now he don`t have a home , you admit this.

so what are you proposing to do with your dog that has displayed time after time aggression issues , bitten people numerous times and by your own admission is a dangerous dog to everyone he comes into contact with???

realistically , you cannot pass this problem on to anyone , he is your dog and ultimately your responsibility.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> It does annoy me when people say things like that..
> 
> The Dogs Trust is not a dumping ground for every dog with behavioural or medical issues that the owner can't keep - they have limited space even as a large rescue and would imagine their place where such dogs go cannot have an open door policy to say yes to every single person who rings up asking for a space. I know they are innundated each day with requests to take dogs.... and that once a dog is in there care this may be the case, but they surely can't be expected to take in every single dog that needs a special set up just like that each time they are asked?
> 
> ...


What's going on here? This has been posted at least 3 times in this thread.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Sorry everyone seem to have posted the same thing three times had some t'internet problems at work. My internet kept freezing adn it looked like hadn't posted as crashed out, so clicked post several times !! problem sorted now.

Our rescue will take in dogs who have shown signs of aggression but ometimes you get fed up of picking up the pieces of poor dogs whose owners have not done the right thing, spend money on vets or behaviourists and people get bitten some badly. not saying its the case here but rescues know from experience that PTS is by far not the worst thing that can heppen in some situations and can be best for the dog.

Does the behaviourioust know that the behaivour has escalated dramatically is it worth talking to them to see what they say? Do you value their opinions i.e. there is a huge wealth of knowledge and exprience out there from behaviourists and the advise they give - and also have you spoken to your vet as well?


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> It does annoy me when people say things like that..
> 
> The Dogs Trust is not a dumping ground for every dog with behavioural or medical issues that the owner can't keep - they have limited space even as a large rescue and would imagine their place where such dogs go cannot have an open door policy to say yes to every single person who rings up asking for a space. I know they are innundated each day with requests to take dogs.... and that once a dog is in there care this may be the case, but they surely can't be expected to take in every single dog that needs a special set up just like that each time they are asked?
> 
> ...


Thats why I know deep down its best for everone and most of all Oscar. He doesnt know whether he is coming or going after he has settled from an attack. I thoroughly agree with your comments and thats why ultimately I dont feel I can put him in rescue, it would break him even more. If a rehome had come up I wouldnt have taken it lightly and would want to know much more about the circumstances etc.I think what happened on Sat was a perfect example of someone 'thinking' they can take him on but I would say 99.9% of people wouldn cope and I couldnt put them at risk. He is my responsibility and I dont think that feeling will ever go away until I know he is at peace. Rambling again sorry x


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JustmeGemmy said:


> We have a rescue near us who have taken on aggressive dogs. In fact, one of the guys who owns the rescue took on a VERY aggressive Greyhound - the dog has to wear a muzzle inside & outside of the house. 99% of the time, this dog is great, but it's that uncertainty of the 1% & when it might hit. So some people really do take on aggressive dogs.
> 
> This might be a stupid question, but has anyone actually tried muzzling the dog?
> 
> ...


Perhaps it might help if you gave this man a ring to see if he can help. I think it unlikely that anyone will take a dog who is unpredictably aggressive in all situations; rather different to one who is aggressive in specific situations or with specific people.



rocco33 said:


> And I'm horrified to read that someone has suggested that because rescue won't accept him she has only two options, one of which is privately rehoming him  :mad2:


You are joking, of course! I've never heard anything so irresponsible in my life. Actually, if the OP were to advertise Oscar and state all his problems, he would end up as a bait dog; those scum would probably think him ideal.



carlycl said:


> I just need to say Im sorry. The last thing I wanted was to start people bickering on here. I came here for advice from people who know dogs, had experiences and can help to do whats right.
> 
> PLEASE do not argue. You have all helped me in different ways and I am grateful to you all.
> 
> ...


Please don't apologise. Any emotive subject posted on this forum is going to end up in a row, and personally I think this thread has remained quite civilised.

You know what needs to be done, and don't think it is for your sake, it isn't; it is for Oscar's sake.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Perhaps it might help if you gave this man a ring to see if he can help. I think it unlikely that anyone will take a dog who is unpredictably aggressive in all situations; rather different to one who is aggressive in specific situations or with specific people.
> 
> You are joking, of course! I've never heard anything so irresponsible in my life. Actually, if the OP were to advertise Oscar and state all his problems, he would end up as a bait dog; those scum would probably think him ideal.
> 
> ...


Thankyou for taking the time to share your thoughts. I know you are right although my heart aches x

Im new to forums as you can probably tell


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Carlycl

Whatever you decide, it will be in the best interests of Oscar, of that I am convinced. 

Come on guys - it's fine to have differing opinions but we should express them in the right way. Carly's here for help. It would be lovely to be able to wave a magic wand, but life's not like that. We should be supportive on here.

Carly - my thoughts are with you.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Carly, I may have missed a couple of posts while out, but may I ask where Oscar is at moment? I feel you are reaching that time where you know in your heart what needs to be done, so I only want to suggest to please dont prolong yours and Oscars agony, you see, you have an opportunity to be with your boy at the time, I know this feels horrendous to you at moment, but in time when all the pain of this has eased you can be at one with yourself in knowing you did everything possible for him, youve never let him down and given up, and to me the most important is, you were with him to the end.... I don't have that comfort with my boy who I lost in April (I know totally different circumstances) I was on my way to be with him at the vets, he had been kept in over night, he took a real turn for worse and they couldnt wait the 20 mins for me to get there, he couldnt breath because of Pneumonia, I wasnt able to be with him, and this thought will haunt me for rest of my days, ...
I'm only telling you all this to maybe save more heartache for you in the future

Youve been in my thoughts and heart since reading of your heartache....


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

diablo said:


> carly it is very clear to me he is not a safe dog , you`ve done all the explaining you need to do as far as i am concerned and i am disgusted with what has been advised on the other place - people really cannot begin to appreciate the position you are in right now , they aren`t there minute by minute and cannot see what is happening , it is clear you are terrified for your safety and that of your toddler but you do need to ask yourself can you inflict this on anyone else ???? and in all honesty going by your posts i don`t think you can.
> you`ve already had your answer regarding breed rescues stance on this over the telephone that was without me posting the information i did.
> you can`t take your dog back , the people that were willing to offer your dog have backed out , now he don`t have a home , you admit this.
> 
> ...


I know he is my responsibility, I just came on here for guidance. I have never been in this situation nor have I known anyone who has so please dont think id pass him on to anyone now we know how deep rooted this has become. I feel like in the last 2 weeks I dont know my Oscar anymore, my ability to read his body language is much less than before which means I cant manage him anymore. If you apporoached him in the street he would be ok, if you approached him near my house it would be a different story. I wouldnt say its everyone he comes into contact with but the unpredictability means we have only one option. Thankyou for taking the time to share your opinion, it really is valued C x


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

MyMillie said:


> Carly, I may have missed a couple of posts while out, but may I ask where Oscar is at moment? I feel you are reaching that time where you know in your heart what needs to be done, so I only want to suggest to please dont prolong yours and Oscars agony, you see, you have an opportunity to be with your boy at the time, I know this feels horrendous to you at moment, but in time when all the pain of this has eased you can be at one with yourself in knowing you did everything possible for him, youve never let him down and given up, and to me the most important is, you were with him to the end.... I don't have that comfort with my boy who I lost in April (I know totally different circumstances) I was on my way to be with him at the vets, he had been kept in over night, he took a real turn for worse and they couldnt wait the 20 mins for me to get there, he couldnt breath because of Pneumonia, I wasnt able to be with him, and this thought will haunt me for rest of my days, ...
> I'm only telling you all this to maybe save more heartache for you in the future
> 
> Youve been in my thoughts and heart since reading of your heartache....


Only reading your post Im in tears, sobbing again. That thought is one I just cant handle, the fact he will be taken from us, his life gone. We have contacted a vet near Sunderland where he is, the ball is rolling...

I am honestly concerned for my own welfare right now, I just cant get myself together. I absolutely adore that dog x


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

carlycl said:


> I know he is my responsibility, I just came on here for guidance. I have never been in this situation nor have I known anyone who has so please dont think id pass him on to anyone now we know how deep rooted this has become. I feel like in the last 2 weeks I dont know my Oscar anymore, my ability to read his body language is much less than before which means I cant manage him anymore. If you apporoached him in the street he would be ok, if you approached him near my house it would be a different story. I wouldnt say its everyone he comes into contact with but the unpredictability means we have only one option. Thankyou for taking the time to share your opinion, it really is valued C x


It will be easier if you can think of it as an illness which is getting worse with no cure, a bit like cancer getting more painful by the day. Because that is what it is, an illness, and I think you are making yourself feel worse because you are having trouble grasping that fact.

I wish you all the luck in the world and hope this experience hasn't put you off having a dog in the future; you are obviously a caring owner.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> It will be easier if you can think of it as an illness which is getting worse with no cure, a bit like cancer getting more painful by the day. Because that is what it is, an illness, and I think you are making yourself feel worse because you are having trouble grasping that fact.
> 
> I wish you all the luck in the world and hope this experience hasn't put you off having a dog in the future; you are obviously a caring owner.


I know that is how im trying to think of it, i dont want him suffering at all. I couldnt ever have another dog because i couldnt risk going through this pain anymore, i simply cant hack it. I adore animals, I have lots of pets that I care for all of the time and are a huge part of my life. But this grief I cant take, maybe it is because I love them so much, especially my gorgeous boy x


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Only reading your post Im in tears, sobbing again. That thought is one I just cant handle, the fact he will be taken from us, his life gone. We have contacted a vet near Sunderland where he is, the ball is rolling...
> 
> I am honestly concerned for my own welfare right now, I just cant get myself together. I absolutely adore that dog x


Carly I really feel for you. I think you know which way you need to go. I think you are just torturing yourself waiting around. Your dog is very sick in mind and you need to release him from all the stress he is suffering imo. If I were you I would hold him and let him go to sleep knowing he is very much loved...which he clearly is. It is going to be a very sad and difficult time for you. Take care x


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I know he is my responsibility, I just came on here for guidance. I have never been in this situation nor have I known anyone who has so please dont think id pass him on to anyone now we know how deep rooted this has become. I feel like in the last 2 weeks I dont know my Oscar anymore, my ability to read his body language is much less than before which means I cant manage him anymore. If you apporoached him in the street he would be ok, if you approached him near my house it would be a different story. I wouldnt say its everyone he comes into contact with but the unpredictability means we have only one option. Thankyou for taking the time to share your opinion, it really is valued C x


carly i do want you to know NON of this is your fault in any way shape or form as animal lovers we take dogs into our home , show them love and affection and treat them as a big part of our family at the end of the day he is a dog and there will always be a certain amount of behaviour from them at times we don`t expect but in no way in any shape or form should you subject yourself and your family to this kind of behaviour , it isn`t right and it`s certainly not fair on you for others to suggest otherwise and lead you up the garden path i think you`ve done more than enough in these circumstances , you`ve done more than what most would have done after the first time he attacked , you`ve persevered until you yourself can take no more and hit breaking point where something HAS to give.
it is very clear to me you love Oscar and want what is best for him and honestly i don`t take advising people to put their dogs to sleep lightly but it is the best thing for you , your family and everyone else involved in oscars care and wellbeing , rescue or private rehomes should never be an option for dogs displaying signs like this and it`s totally wrong and disgusting you`ve been made to feel so torn in this way with what i feel was totally wrong and dangerous advice from some.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Only reading your post Im in tears, sobbing again. That thought is one I just cant handle, the fact he will be taken from us, his life gone. We have contacted a vet near Sunderland where he is, the ball is rolling...
> 
> I am honestly concerned for my own welfare right now, I just cant get myself together. I absolutely adore that dog x


Oh God!! I'm so sorry Carly, I truly didnt intend to make you distraught, life so dam cruel sometimes!! wished I could take away your pain, sadly, I can't 
why didnt I keep my big mouth shut till you told me where he was!!! is there no way you could go there? but I have to say again, you have gone the extra mile for your boy already, youve done so much...........


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I know that is how im trying to think of it, i dont want him suffering at all. I couldnt ever have another dog because i couldnt risk going through this pain anymore, i simply cant hack it. I adore animals, I have lots of pets that I care for all of the time and are a huge part of my life. But this grief I cant take, maybe it is because I love them so much, especially my gorgeous boy x


It's clear that you love him hon. Massive hugs. It's not easy to go through what you have xx


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## BullyMolly (Sep 26, 2011)

I have been reading this thread in between doing house hold chores and haven't posted until now as didn't really know what to suggest  
I want to say first of all is me and my OH are sending you hugs. I cant even begin to imagine what you are feeling. You did what you thought best at the time, and we all do things that turn out to be wrong. But on the flip side, it was still right to remove him from your child. 
I think that trying to re-home will make things worse for Oscar, and you will always be worried about him and if you did the right thing. You clearly love him and want whats best for him. And the best thing would be for no more suffering. 
Don't be hard on yourself, you have obviously agonised about this for some time. Thinking of you all


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

My Millie please dont feel bad, its whirling round my sore head anyway. I'm very emotional right now and just the fact that you have all been so kind to me has set me blubbing. Normally Im quite hard faced tbh but where beloved doggy is concerned Im a wreck. You really are all so kind. Christ ive gotta go to work later, think i better leave the mascara off! x


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

You are very brave to make the descision you have, I have nothing but respect for you. It takes a special kind of owner to face up to their responsibilities, even when it hurts.

I also want to say thank you on Oscars behalf. I'm sure he would rather have his caring family around him when the time comes, over a stranger to him.

newfiesmum is right- It is an illness, you are releasing him from his demons, his own mental torture. It is a selfless act on your behalf. 

Wishing you the strength to get through this. (hugs)


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

carlycl said:


> My Millie please dont feel bad, its whirling round my sore head anyway. I'm very emotional right now and just the fact that you have all been so kind to me has set me blubbing. Normally Im quite hard faced tbh but where beloved doggy is concerned Im a wreck. You really are all so kind. Christ ive gotta go to work later, think i better leave the mascara off! x


Bless you Carly, and thank you for not being cross with me, I do worry sometimes if I make things worse with the "written word" some things come out wrong and at wrong times .....


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

MyMillie said:


> Bless you Carly, and thank you for not being cross with me, I do worry sometimes if I make things worse with the "written word" some things come out wrong and at wrong times .....


Im not cross I truly appreciate you being so kind to me. My OH doesnt think I should be there for his last moments Im such a mess. Ive been awake literally all night and crying for hours on end. Im trying to pull myself together but the pain is incredible, I havent had much loss in my life and I obviously dont cope well xx


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Making the choice to put a dog to sleep is one of the hardest things to do (I made the same choice a few weeks ago though bad health not aggression) but in some cases it's the best thing for the dog and the owners, this is one of those cases.

I say better for the dog and the owners because no owner wants to end up with someone else's injury or possibly death on their hands should the dog attack a child or another person. 

The dog obviously has issues and is not happy during these incidents. It really is the best thing all round. No matter how hard it is.

I send my love and hugs, you are a very brave person and I give you kudos for being a responsible owner.xxxx


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MyMillie said:


> Oh God!! I'm so sorry Carly, I truly didnt intend to make you distraught, life so dam cruel sometimes!! wished I could take away your pain, sadly, I can't
> why didnt I keep my big mouth shut till you told me where he was!!! is there no way you could go there? but I have to say again, you have gone the extra mile for your boy already, youve done so much...........


I am not sure that being there would be a good thing; not everyone can cope with that at all, it is a memory that never leaves them. I held my beloved cat in my arms as she drifted off and it is not a memory I have ever been able to get rid of, despite all the lovely ones of such a loving and affectionate girl.



carlycl said:


> Im not cross I truly appreciate you being so kind to me. My OH doesnt think I should be there for his last moments Im such a mess. Ive been awake literally all night and crying for hours on end. Im trying to pull myself together but the pain is incredible, I havent had much loss in my life and I obviously dont cope well xx


Most of us on this forum know exactly how you feel; at some time or other most of us have had to make the decision to end our pet's suffering and we have all agonised over the possibility that things could get better. And we all know how it feels to lose a dog we love so very much.

My Joshua has been gone for almost a year now, and I still can't bear to open the draw where his ashes are kept nor look at a photograph of him. He died a natural death, but he was only three. You may never get over the loss of Oscar, but you can at least remember him how he was before this bitter illness came along and changed him into something else.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Been looking at this thread on my phone but haven't put anything up. I just wanted to say carlycl I think you're really brave and have put your dogs needs and welfare first.

Like others on here it is so clear through your replies you love your dog and have done EVERYTHING in your power to help him whilst being a mum, holding down a job and coping with the stress between you and your OH it caused.

Some people give away their dogs at the drop of a hat and don't give a damn for them, they toss them aside for stupid reasons and sentence them to a life of misery one way or anohter.

I truly take my hat off to you and reading this thread put tears in my eyes, I have nothing but respect for you for giving Oscar your all and everything.

If I could give you a hug, I would! 

You're a brave lady doing a very kind thing.

Thinking of you, your family and Oscar.

Candice

xxx


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Im not cross I truly appreciate you being so kind to me. My OH doesnt think I should be there for his last moments Im such a mess. Ive been awake literally all night and crying for hours on end. Im trying to pull myself together but the pain is incredible, I havent had much loss in my life and I obviously dont cope well xx


I think your OH could be right about this Carly, after all, he knows you and the terrible state your in and can see it would do you no good, you see, we all view things like this awful dilema differently and I see no wrong whatsoever in those that stay with them and those who truly couldnt bare it, at the end of the day you have to do what is best for you, and I think my babbling post was just to point out if you wanted to be with him to make sure it was organised for you to be able too, I'm certain the ones on here will truly understand respect your wishes on this xx


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## Angie2011 (Feb 2, 2011)

Just HUGS hun! x x


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Hugs are gratefully accepted right now. cant believe this situation, it is my absolute worst nightmare. x


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Hugs are gratefully accepted right now. cant believe this situation, it is my absolute worst nightmare. x


Massive hugs honey xx


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

If you can't be there will your friends be OK with him to enure he goes on his way to peace with someone he knows?

When my boy had to be put to sleep (brain tumour) was awful, but to see the expression soften on his face when he was at peace made me realise how much he had changed and started to suffer.. keeping him alive would have been for me only and although it was the hardest thing, I have no doubts it was the right thing for him and wouldnt have done anything differently.

I really feel for you x


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## Bellaboo1 (Aug 10, 2011)

I have been in a similar situation to you, just wanted to send you hugs and say i am thinking of you x


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## andrea84 (Aug 16, 2012)

((( hugs carly))) x


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> If you can't be there will your friends be OK with him to enure he goes on his way to peace with someone he knows?
> 
> When my boy had to be put to sleep (brain tumour) was awful, but to see the expression soften on his face when he was at peace made me realise how much he had changed and started to suffer.. keeping him alive would have been for me only and although it was the hardest thing, I have no doubts it was the right thing for him and wouldnt have done anything differently.
> 
> I really feel for you x


My OH will be there he is tougher than me. I dont know if i can, i want to but i just dont think ill cope. Im such a mess


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Carly, 

Don't worry if you feel you can't be with Oscar at the end. Some people need to be there, but not everyone can go through that, and you are in a very emotional place right now. If you get too upset, it would make it worse for him, so don't feel guilty. The vet and assistant will look after him very well for you. Do what is right for you. 

You have done everything in your power, and clearly love Oscar very much. Losing a much loved dog, in whatever way, is the hard part of living with one. It's far too early for you to think about having another - none could replace Oscar, but equally, don't write off having another friend at some time in the future.

We are all sending you vibes.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

God talk about throw a spanner in the works. My sis has just rang me who now lives in Greece, she loves Oscar. Her ex bf always got on great with Oscar so she phoned him. He wants to take him. He lives alone and knows the issues, now what? Am I silly for even contemplating it, Im just desperate for him x


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

carlycl said:


> God talk about throw a spanner in the works. My sis has just rang me who now lives in Greece, she loves Oscar. Her ex bf always got on great with Oscar so she phoned him. He wants to take him. He lives alone and knows the issues, now what? Am I silly for even contemplating it, Im just desperate for him x


Dont want to sound harsh but dont even think about it. The problem will be passed on again and someone will get hurt.

Also the dog is most likely very stressed by all of this, the best thing for him is to be pts.

The only other option is to seek help from abother behaviourist, or vet. Plus is this person experienced in body language and aggression? If not then i can assure you they will end up with the same problem you had with him. It would be very dangerous for you to pass him on. I know its hard but its best for him and the public.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

This is the last thing you need. It must feel like a lifeline, but what is your instinct on this? I think you know.

Has he ever seen Oscar when he is in bad place? how would Oscar cope with any quarantine? Is he likely to have partner/kids in future? Oscar is only a young dog.

If you told him the whole of it, he may well change his mind, and it would just prolong everything for you all.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

carlycl said:


> God talk about throw a spanner in the works. My sis has just rang me who now lives in Greece, she loves Oscar. Her ex bf always got on great with Oscar so she phoned him. He wants to take him. He lives alone and knows the issues, now what? Am I silly for even contemplating it, Im just desperate for him x


You poor thing! I can imagine how tempted you must feel, but telling someone about the specific problems and having them understood are different things. I think as said, the dog is already stressed. Your sister has tried to help and just made things worse.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Would not even consider it (although I know you would want to) unless he had seen him when he was in full aggressive mode; again could be another case of thinking they are helping but when an incident happens it could be way more than they were expecting and again could be back to square one or someone gets hurt. Doe he want a dog that is that aggressive no one can get in a room with them for hours?

He may not know what to expect if not seen him; I bet we all have different impressions in our minds here of what he is like that would probably differ if we saw him...

If he is kept alive with someone else I would also only consider it if there was a 'cure' in mind, if he could be fixed.. keeping him like this may be causing him stress or pain, and would just make you feel better maybe not him.

Have you spoken to your vet and behaivourist who know him?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have not read all the replies but in my opinion you have no choice but to pts. I think you have already been rather irresponsible but you MUST be responsible now and go straight to the vets with him and end his misery before he injures someone.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

i really feel for you..your head must be all over the place..

Regarding the offer...what would happen to oscar if the new owner couldn't handle his aggression?

would he be returned back to you and then you have to re-live this nightmare all over again...it wouldn't be fair on you or him ..


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carly i know you really , really want to throw oscar a lifeline but personally i wouldn`t even entertain the idea. all this passing him from one person to the next is just going to make whatever insecurities he has much worse.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Just disregard my last post, I know its ridiculous. I havent even read your relies yet, its just not an option x


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I have not read all the replies but in my opinion you have no choice but to pts. I think you have already been rather irresponsible but you MUST be responsible now and go straight to the vets with him and end his misery before he injures someone.


Hi Blitz, please know when I say this I really dont want to appear rude, but I have learnt a great deal for myself from this thread to realise not to comment until I had read all the replies, you see, it has been said many many times in the beginning that Carly was "irresponsible" but she is not, what she is, is a caring loving owner who has gone to hell and back to try and sort things out for her boy,
just my thoughts on this thats all, no ill will intended


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Don't even think about your BiL to be honest. How would Oscar cope in quarantine? I can't see the staff there letting him out to roam round Greece.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

MyMillie said:


> Hi Blitz, please know when I say this I really dont want to appear rude, but I have learnt a great deal for myself from this thread to realise not to comment until I had read all the replies, you see, it has been said many many times in the beginning that Carly was "irresponsible" but she is not, what she is, is a caring loving owner who has gone to hell and back to try and sort things out for her boy,
> just my thoughts on this thats all, no ill will intended


Fair enough, but this is the second thread where she has repeatedly been told to have the dog put to sleep. I read through the first one but could not face reading the same thing over and over again here.
I do feel very strongly that things went far enough a long time ago and there is going to be a serious accident if the dog is left to live any longer.
I know it is a difficult decision to carry out but it should not be a difficult one to make.
It would be considered cruel to keep a dog with life threatening or painful injuries that could not be cured - this dog has mental problems which must be distressing to it so the decision has to be made.


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## beris (Aug 30, 2010)

Having just re-read your post from 8th august, and read this thread, as sad as it is I don't think you have an option but to PTS if you are going to be fair to your dog, yourself and other people.


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

It is a tough decision for any owner to make but think of the amount of friendly dogs in rescue and then think how long Oscar could potentially sit in kennels awaiting someone coming along prepared to take a risk on being bitten, attacked or even walking with him and have him attack a child or something?! Really would anyone knowing his history happily choose him over a happy sociable rescue dog???? And are you prepared to lie to get him into rescue and then have them unknowingly rehome a nasty unpredictable dog??!! I know I couldn't live with myself if I were to do that.

Sadly I agree that the right decision for this dog is humane euthanasia!


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2012)

carly if you cannot face having oscar put to sleep yourself i`m more than willing to drive over and get this done for you at a vets local to where you are , i can`t and won`t offer him space because it`s simply not practical with a dog that has displayed so many aggressive tendencies and bitten so many people. if you need help with making this step just drop me a PM but i seriously cannot and will not advise you to pass him on again because it isn`t the right thing to do to oscar and it isn`t fair you are tormenting yourself like this


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Sorry i am all confused, has Oscar seen a vet for tests and has a behaviourist checked him out yet....Sorry to drag things back from probably pages ago


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Now i've read more of the story, I'd personally say that if you can't deal with Oscar between you and the OH, with him being assessed by a behaviourist, then I'd give him the last decent thing and take him to be PTS yourself so he doesn't have to go through that with a stranger. 

Rehoming isn't an option, the stress of it will no doubt make his behaviour/mental state worse and he could really hurt someone.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Fair enough, but this is the second thread where she has repeatedly been told to have the dog put to sleep. I read through the first one but could not face reading the same thing over and over again here.
> I do feel very strongly that things went far enough a long time ago and there is going to be a serious accident if the dog is left to live any longer.
> I know it is a difficult decision to carry out but it should not be a difficult one to make.
> It would be considered cruel to keep a dog with life threatening or painful injuries that could not be cured - this dog has mental problems which must be distressing to it so the decision has to be made.


 I see, and understand what your saying now, this is a difficult one isnt it, some people find it extremely difficult beyond the norm to let go and poor carly is such one, but I really do feel she will get there and I pray this will be soon


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

pogo said:


> Now i've read more of the story, I'd personally say that if you can't deal with Oscar between you and the OH, with him being assessed by a behaviourist, then I'd give him the last decent thing and take him to be PTS yourself so he doesn't have to go through that with a stranger.
> 
> Rehoming isn't an option, the stress of it will no doubt make his behaviour/mental state worse and he could really hurt someone.


I agree. I think that Oscar should be with his family at his last moments and not a stranger. That would stress him out even more and wouldn't be fair to him xx


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

I wanted to add my hugs and support. I know this is the hardest thing you will ever have to do and the others are right, this is an illness, he's not getting better he's getting worse and you are doing the kindest thing by ending his suffering.

I had to end my boys suffering when he started to be very aggressive with me, my daughter and my grandaughter because he no longer knew who we were due to doggy dementia. It was the worst thing I ever had to do, I felt like I had murdered my best friend. Looking back at it now I know I did the right thing because that wasn't who he was, he adored kids his whole life and he must have been suffering to be have like he did. Same as Oscar is suffering now.

Hang on it there, it will get worse before it gets better, but it will get better I promise xx


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

If you have decided to have him PTS, how soon can you get it done? And where can he stay until the time arrives?


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Hugs and the strength to see this through before you make yourself ill.

If your OH can go with him to vets, that is great, but it is time to stop torturing youself, if you know in your heart what must be done.


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

I wasnt going to comment on this thread as everything I would have advised has already been said over and over

But I just had to add my sympathies for you going through this awful situation. I know it hasnt been an easy decision for you , letting a loved dog go never can be , but I believe you have made the right choice for poor Oscar and your family

Try to remember your boy as the loving family pet he used to be , not as he was after his illness manifested itself

((((Hugs))))


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## Qow (Jun 26, 2012)

I completely agree with everyone saying pts is the ONLY option.

You have given Oscar a very happy life, so have no need to feel guilty. You have done the right thing in seeking medical and behavioural help for his aggression.

You love him dearly. The kindest thing you can do is allow him to go to sleep without further stress. If this was a serious physical illness you wouldn't put him through any further distress. Why not apply this same compassion for an illness affecting his brain? He is getting worse and sounds highly stressed by the attempted rehoming. Moving him to another country would be cruel.

You will be devasated just now, but in the long term you will know that you did the right thing. You will also count yourself lucky that your son hasn't been hurt, nor any other child. You'd feel much more guilty if this were to happen - a child could be scarred for life.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Don't even think about your BiL to be honest. How would Oscar cope in quarantine? I can't see the staff there letting him out to roam round Greece.


The sister lives in Greece - the ex-boyfriend who has offered to take the dog lives here in the UK. I don't think anyone would be daft enough to send him on a long journey overseas, when he gets aggressive on a short car ride.



sketch said:


> Sorry i am all confused, has Oscar seen a vet for tests and has a behaviourist checked him out yet....Sorry to drag things back from probably pages ago


Yes, he has.


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Thanks Newfiesmum, I must have missed the post, cheers hunny xxx


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

She said earlier that the vet wouldn't do a thyroid blood test.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

It's an awful decision to have to make but I think you already knew what had to be done.
I'm in tears while I'm typing this coz I can imagine how you must be feeling so all I can do is just send the biggest((((( hugs ))))). 
Just remember the good times you shared, try and forget the rest. Remember that he was ill and not a bad dog.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

i know its hard taking Oscar but when i took Marley to be PTS I held him and he was so peaceful, all the stress and worry and everything had gone and he was how i really knew him. it helped me accept what i did was the best for him.


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## lola57 (Jul 23, 2012)

really sorry to say this but i dont think your dog is rehomeable,even if you home him with experienced people you have to assume they have visitors/family etc also out walking??if he has rage syndrome there is rarely a warning,just wondering if your vet has confirmed it ? i have known several cockers with this condition but attacks usually only last minutes not sustained as you describe.sadly the fact is if you dont feel safe with him its unlikely that someone who doesnt love him like you do would feel any safer,i hate to say it but if you cant find the cause&cure the kindest thing you can do for him is take him home love him,hold him in your arms while the vet does the only kind thing he can do..heartbreaking but i dont think he will have a good future (


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## GermanShepardOwner (Aug 20, 2012)

Still reading through this thread! What happened to the person who could take it to a rescue or something? Even though this is a bad idea and i cant believe a rescue would take this dog but just wondering what happened? 

As i said in previous post, PTS is the bets option for this dog. Its a big risk having a dog like this, and experience is needed really if you are going to try.


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## sazzle (Sep 10, 2011)

I have just read though all this, what a terrible thing to happen to your family and your beloved dog. I do honestly think you have made the correct decision though. (and I feel really bad for saying that because I know how bad you are feeling.)

Any decent person would be in utter turmoil if they had to make the same decision as you have, I know I would. I have been in turmoil reading this.

Just wanted to send some (((hugs))) and if I could say anything to help to make you feel any better I would.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Rehoming is absolutely not an option here. This dog isn't right, he isn't well and IMO will never improve.

Not all dogs can be saved and not all dogs should be. You have done everything you can. Let him go to the bridge, free of his demons.

Hold him in your arms when he takes his last journey. It will break your heart, I know, i've been there, but it's the right thing to do for you all. He is ill - you cannot cure him. Let him go. 

I know how hard this is, I know what it's like to search endlessly for reasons for what has happened and try and find another solution. I know that you are devastated and my heart breaks for you but I know you'll do the right thing.

Thinking of you - feel free to PM me if you need to talk or vent. My thoughts are with you xxxxxx


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

i'm so sorry for the situation that you have found yourself in. it's so hard sometimes to make the right decision when your head and heart are pulling you in two totally different directions.

i'm curious to why the vet didn't do blood tests for thryoid. how can they rule it out if they haven't done the test  from what other people have said on a dobe forum, this can cause major behavourial problems.

(((big hugs))) for whatever decison you come/came to.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Im overwhelmed by the response from you lovely people. He is still at our relatives house, he is booked in at the vets tomorrow and has sedatives. A second vet tonight has said its the only option. Im literally breaking my heart, I cant bring myself to go. My Oh will be with him but he is strong compared to me. I really am not coping with this, its beyond words the hurt I feel for my gorgeous boy.
I got in form work tonight and it was just horrible when I didnt have my excited Oscar to greet me, since then Im inconsolable x


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Im overwhelmed by the response from you lovely people. He is still at our relatives house, he is booked in at the vets tomorrow and has sedatives. A second vet tonight has said its the only option. Im literally breaking my heart, I cant bring myself to go. My Oh will be with him but he is strong compared to me. I really am not coping with this, its beyond words the hurt I feel for my gorgeous boy.
> I got in form work tonight and it was just horrible when I didnt have my excited Oscar to greet me, since then Im inconsolable x


Hey Hon. He has sedatives so he will be a lot calmer. You are doing what is best for him and that's the best thing you can do. I know it's hard, making this choice is. It will take time and you will miss him terribly. But as time goes on you will feel better and you will remember the good times with Oscar and you can be sure in the knowledge that you loved him with all your heart and soul and did what was best for him in the end.

Honestly, he could not have asked for a better owner than you. You love this dog and that is so obvious. He is so lucky to have you xx


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

carlycl said:


> Im overwhelmed by the response from you lovely people. He is still at our relatives house, he is booked in at the vets tomorrow and has sedatives. A second vet tonight has said its the only option. Im literally breaking my heart, I cant bring myself to go. My Oh will be with him but he is strong compared to me. I really am not coping with this, its beyond words the hurt I feel for my gorgeous boy.
> I got in form work tonight and it was just horrible when I didnt have my excited Oscar to greet me, since then Im inconsolable x


i couldn't add anything to this thread as i would have been repeating everyone else. I'm so sorry it's come to this but your doing what is best for him and as an loving owner that's what matters. Of course your going to be upset, remember the good times and don't focus on the bad. Your doing right for Oscar it's so sad it's had to end like this. Thinking of you.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Useful links:

Blue Cross - Pet Bereavement Support Service

Blue Cross - Download our literature

From guides on how to prepare yourself to say goodbye to support after the event.


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Thankyou, I will read through it tomorrow. I cant stop looking through pics of him, we have hundreds he is absolutely beautiful, it makes me realise how things have changed so much x


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

carlycl said:


> Thankyou, I will read through it tomorrow. I cant stop looking through pics of him, we have hundreds he is absolutely beautiful, it makes me realise how things have changed so much x


Be strong Carly. We are all thinking of you.

(((((((hugs)))))))


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

Our lovely boy


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

He is a beautiful boy.

Keep him close to your heart and remember well the great days you gave to him.

CC


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Thinking of you. Post as many pics as you want. And do remember that poor Oscar has an incurable illness. None of this is your fault.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

Just feel I need to send you
(((((hugs)))))

I agree with lucylastic, post as many pics as you need to. 

Maybe writing something in the Rainbow Bridge thread when you feel up to it might help too. It helped me when my daughters dog had to be pts.
And please remember that it's not your fault, it's not Oscars fault, he was ill and you did everything you could to help him.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2012)

i`m so sorry carly 
you are doing the best thing for all involved , including oscar.
you take comfort in the fact you`ve given a lovely secure home to your boy where he was smothered with kindness and love , he was very lucky to have you looking after him , thank you for doing all that you did for him.
i hope you decide to stay around carly and gather support from those of us that totally 100% support you in your decision and just remember however hard it`s been for you and your family it is the kindest thing and most unselfish thing you did for him ((((hugs)))) will be thinking of all of you tomorrow. take care carly and keep your chin up hon xxxxx


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

You did the right thing. In fact, you did the only thing you could do.

There is something badly wrong with that poor dog and now he'll be free from it and at peace.

Hugs from me too.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

You were the first thing I thought about when I woke this morning and had to come straight on here to send you so much love and hugs today, I know you don't know any of us personally but please "feel" and take in all the loving energies on here who are with you and feeling your pain with you, and we so very much want to comfort you today, please let your OH know I'm thinking of him too, give each other lots of hugs and know we are hugging you both too

xxx


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## Lola71 (Feb 23, 2011)

Just wanted to say that i will be thinking of you all today x


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## carlycl (Aug 9, 2012)

I just cant stand the thought of him not being here. I cannot pull myself together, he is my world. The pain i feel is indescribible :-(


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## LahLahsDogs (Jul 4, 2012)

carlycl said:


> I just cant stand the thought of him not being here. I cannot pull myself together, he is my world. The pain i feel is indescribible :-(


This must be incredibly tough for you. Honestly I have no idea what to say now, i'm not sure if there is anything to say that will make you feel any better. I hope you'll be ok. Try and take it easy, it's a big thing to deal with and you mustn't over stress yourself. You've done the right thing for Oscar, as hard as that is, it's for the best. Sending you lots of love xx


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## andrea84 (Aug 16, 2012)

my thoughts are with you today and your OH,be strong ,i know from experiance this isnt easy and your hearts breaking.i too got up this morning and came straight on here to see if you were ok.
here are some more ((( hugs))) 
maybe look up the links attackmode sent when u feel up to it ,im sure they will help a lot xxx


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Thoughts are with you and your OH today. Sorry you have had to make this decision but I think its the right one for everyone x x x


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Thinking of you xxx


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Thinking of you today.

You ARE doing then right thing - and feel no guilt about not being there at the end. You have fought and fought and fought for him, but now you are doing the best thing possible for him. He is mentally very unwell, so you have no choice.

In time, your lovely photos will be a comfort to you, but for now, you just have to focus on taking baby steps, one at a time, to get through. This will gradullay ease, and one day you will be able to remember the happy bits and smile - but don't be frightened to seek advice - losing a pet is no different from losing a human member of the family. 

When you are ready, do share him with us.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Thinking of you all today
X


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## MeganRose (Apr 13, 2008)

Read through this thread and I can't say anything that everyone else hasn't said. I really feel for you, this must be a horrible situation for you to be in. -hugs-


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## Komfy K9 (Jun 25, 2012)

I should have mentioned I offer free bereavement help. (qualified) CIDBT

contact me if you wanto.


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## Grace_Lily (Nov 28, 2010)

Haven't read the whole thread but carly have you been in touch with Mark as recommended on the other forum? Have you gotten a secondary veterinary opinion as you said you may? 

The post regarding the dog named Alfie is very concerning to me. Have you set your mind on having Oscar put to sleep or would you still consider relinquishing him to a rescue or person who is aware of his issues? 

Is there any update from the lady on here who said her rescue could take him?


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## jayne5364 (Oct 21, 2009)

I've been reading this thread for days, it's hard to find the right words 
Carly, I just wanted to send you hugs and a little comfort. I feel this is the right thing for Oscar, no matter how hard. Take comfort that he will be at rest, peaceful.
I can't believe people still advocate pinning a dog these days, especialy one like this dog ffs. I saw first hand a few weeks ago how this is done. It upset me so much seeing it happen. I gave the woman a major tongue lashing. Turns out she had paid a lot of money to a trainer being taught how to abuse her poor dog. Shame on you. 
Other than those wanting to comfort Carly at this sad time I think others should back off now and let her grieve, with as much support as we can give xx


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

People should read back before commenting. A second vet has confirmed that PTS is the only option - or do people who have read back and still trying to suggest other options know better than the vets and behaviourists who have met him?

Why should he be passed onto a rescue to become their long term problem and destined to live his life out in a kennel away from his family? Thats if a rescue would take a dog with such a bite history - they have to be realistic too on who they could rehome too and what is fair on the dog himself - and being PTS with family around is not such a bad thing for such a troubled dog.

Other behaviourists could be an option but where is he meant to live whilst this happens - he can't go home, he can't stay where he is.


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## Diesel the Crazy Dal (Jun 11, 2012)

I have, like others been reading this and really dont have anything of any value to add. You must be heartbroken and going through hell right now. I have had a family dog that was pts because of years of aggression and its awful, i feel for you but rest assured you have made the only decision you really can in this situation.

my thoughts are with you


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Just after a very quick glance I've seen a lot of hostility on this thread that is totally uncalled for. I am closing it now to read through.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I am appalled at some of the posts I have removed from this thread! My apologies to those of you whose posts were deleted because they were in reply to others that were totally uncalled for or were taken out to maintain continuity.
After reading through all of this I am going to leave it closed as I can see no point in any further debate.
Carlycl - I am truly sorry about your beloved Oscar


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