# Westie snapping - not just when collar touched



## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

My last topic was regarding our westie snapping when held by the collar or touched over the head.

I would like to have some advice about snapping in general.

Tonight, we took him for a walk and he got the lead tangled under his leg. I went to lift his paw up to get it right, and he snapped at me and tried to bite me.

He bites/snaps when I take his harness off.

He does these little air snaps too. 

He often jumps up at the footstool to get the magazines off of it. If we go to move them, he'll snap.


Is this just a puppy thing or is it something that needs to be sorted now to prevent adult aggression?


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## Paula C (Mar 25, 2008)

my 8 month old pup is still quite nippy. I tell her no everytime but shes like a cat after anything that moves. The cord of a dressing gown, the tea towel when u wash up and when she's walking on the lead shes always jumping up and biting the other dogs lead so I just stop and tell her no and stand still till she stops doin it but she must have the memory of a flea cos 5 mins later shes doin it again


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

LOL, proving me right aren't you 

This was answered in the other thread im sure


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

HandsOnPaws said:


> This was answered in the other thread im sure


That's exactly what I thought!


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

You'll get sick of this pretty quick i can tell you


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

lol - Handonpaws this wasn't covered in the other thread, I checked, just in case I got reponses such as yours. No disrespect, but don't you have anything better to do with your time?


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

Ok so you missed this

The Bite Stops Here

We have always worked on ignore the bad behaviour or use distraction tactics and praise and reward good behaviour.

We stopped all the treats apart from cheese and chicken and swapped her from puppy food to adult,spent alot more time one to one training.We used distraction methods when she was doing something she wasn't supposed to be doing.

I was pulling my hair out with her she was so naughty,but the one to one paid off and a few months later she was alot better.

I would suggest not grabbing him by his collar as you may be hurting him and he maybe snapping as a result.When you move him make him sit and reward with praise and a treat - so it's positive reinforcement.
Same with the hedge show him a treat and call him praise and reward,after a while don't give a treat all the time,make it random.You could also use a training line when he's out side so he can't get under the hedge.

Terriers can be fiesty and very stubborn.
Hope this helps,remember patience and time,it won't happen overnight.

And yes i do have better things to do but if you insist on not listening and keep asking the same questions (or different Qs that have the same answer  ) then i will keep posting because im concerned for this puppy and i think what is best for your dog (remembering that the dogs needs come first over your own) that he should be rehomed. MHO


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

It was all covered in the other thread, just to make sure I've been back and re-read it. Bite inhibition, handshyness it's all there. All you've done in posting this thread is give more examples of the same problem.



B17_Fan said:


> Our Dogs behaviour is improving all the time


What happened to that then? The problem seems to be getting worse from the OP? I think the best advice you had was your own:



B17_Fan said:


> There is no such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners. If the owner isn't sure how to behave with their dog, then that dog will subsequently not know how to behave with its owner.


It's about time you take the advice given and get this problem sorted out rather than keep posting the same old question time after time and ignoring all the advice given. The poor dog is suffering and no one is to blame but yourself.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

> And yes i do have better things to do but if you insist on not listening and keep asking the same questions (or different Qs that have the same answer ) then i will keep posting because im concerned for this puppy and i think what is best for your dog (remembering that the dogs needs come first over your own) that he should be rehomed. MHO


You really don't know anything about how ollie behaves. There is no way he needs to be rehomed. I am not some rough person who doesn't give a damn. I love ollie so much! The snapping is the ONLY issue we have with him.

I love dogs and have grown up with them. I don't want to have to keep explaining myself to you.

I am very dedicated to ollie. Walk him everyday, brush him everyday, play with him everyday and train him everday.

We are going to a course with him which starts in a couple of weeks. And we are having a home visit by the behaviourist to assess him.

I hardly think I would be going to the trouble of arranging this if I just thought "I can't be bothered to turn his behaviour around, I'll just give him up"

He can be loving and very affectionate so there is hope that we can curb his snapping tendancies.

Whilst we wait for the course to start, I thought I would just mention that he does snap in other situations. I think it shows how keen and desperate I am to get as much advice as possible, to help him as much as possible.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

Don't feel sorry for him ajshep. It makes me so annoyed when everyone says things like I am failing the dog, he needs to be rehomed, he's suffering.

I wish I had never ever visited any forum online. I am a very private person and like to keep my life private. 

Like I have said before, If people knew what me and my family and my life was like, then they wouldn't judge me by the small percentage of messages I have written on here. 

I am a gentle, kind, shy, loving person. Getting victimised for helping my puppy.


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2008)

Have you been in touch with his breeder for advice?


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

No we haven't.

He came from someone who bred their pet westies. He was apparently one of 6 puppies. He was the last one left. 


He's a very confident chap. 

I was thinking of not writing anymore posts on here regarding his snapping, because from now on I think we'll wait for the behaviourist to assess him.

He is not an aggressive pup, far far from it. He has never shown his teeth. He is a very lovey boy. I wish the people on these forums could understand that.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> No we haven't.
> 
> He came from someone who bred their pet westies. He was apparently one of 6 puppies. He was the last one left.
> 
> ...


Hi People on here have given you good advice and links to help you with your pup. Have you started trying out the advice as I feel you have not but are just asking the same thing over and over. 
The advice given covers this thread of yours as well as last one


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

I have listened to the advice.

If someone gave me the right advice that will work then I wouldn't have to keep asking.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

It's not a quick fix solution.
You will get there with him it's going to take time,patience and consistancy.

This is the trouble with "Pet Breeder's" they don't seem to be able to offer any advice or support once pups have left.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

It is going to take time. But it will be so worth it in the end. 

I still stand by my statement when I said he is improving all the time. His toilet training is much much better. He is dry through the night. He does very well with his commands. 

He's getting there bless him. And we'll get there together.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

I think there is one thing really being forgotton here this is a PUPPY who is still very young, it may be something he is doing just doing to test you. Puppies can be extremely cheeky little things & at times do things like this to simply test their owners boundaries. Please, however you choose to deal with this, don't smack him or scruff him around the neck & shake him, I know many breeders advocate this practice as it is simply how the Dam sorts the puppy out when they are misbehaving. 
He is still a very young it is going to be no quick fix unfortunatley, I'm going to suggest something that maybe others & yourself will not like which is place him in an experienced West Highland Terrier home because perhaps as owners you are totally wrong for this poor puppy.
I'm not saying you are bad owners before it gets completely blown out of proportion, just sadly sounds like you are the wrong people for this pup.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

If you follow the advice given (especially in 'the bite stops here') consistently, then it WILL work. The only reason it won't work is down to you, or something you are or are not doing.

*If a dog continues to exhibit an unwanted behaviour it is because someone or something in it's environment is re-inforcing it. *

If you are considering the need for a behaviourist at such a young age, something is going really very wrong. I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear. Why haven't you already taken the puppy to classes? I suggest you do so quickly and ensure they are classes that use reward based training.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

Nicci said:


> He is still a very young it is going to be no quick fix unfortunatley, I'm going to suggest something that maybe others & yourself will not like which is place him in an experienced West Highland Terrier home because perhaps as owners you are totally wrong for this poor puppy.
> I'm not saying you are bad owners before it gets completely blown out of proportion, just sadly sounds like you are the wrong people for this pup.


That thought had also crossed my mind too Nicci.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

Sal, I know what it is like moving from one breed that is totally calm then deciding to go with something that is completely different the transition from moving from 'British' Bulldogs then deciding to go with American Bulldogs & Olde Tymes was quite a shock for us & at times found ourselves litterally pulling our hair out and wondering the exact same things ourselves. 

Almost seven years on (How time flies!) I've learned to appreciate the dogs, however naughty they are. 

I can see the OP is desperate for their puppy to stop but I think they are forgetting that he is just a puppy it is behaviour that he may not carry on into his adult life - obviously I don't know all the circumstances but if they wish to keep him all it is going to take is patience and time sadly I can't help feeling they are at the end of their tether going by some of the content that is written in their posts and in instances such as these, you always have to think of the dog - be totally selfless and the best advice that I can give them right now is passing him on to someone with more experience of the breed.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

The reason we first got a westie, is because we saw one outside a shop and it was so freindly. My friend used to have one which was really nice.

We went to 1 puppy class which was very badly run. There were 12 pups to one trainer, which is bad in my opinion. The new class is going to be 6 pups and 2 trainers.

We explained his snapping to the behaviourist, who said it is bad for a pup at 18 weeks. She said that we aren't going to want to end up with a 2 year old which is snappy.

I know he is very young, but you have got to train when they are this age. It is their formative age.

If we don't get the snapping sorted now, then it will be very much harder to stop an adult dog behaving this way. 

I am not going to accept the snapping any longer. It is totally unacceptable behaviour. It's got to be black and white. eg, licking my hand is ok, but biting is not.

No grey areas.

I wish you guys could truly see what ollie is like. He can be a dream sometimes. He is not a mad terrier. He is not jumping up all the time and ripping the house to shreds. He is a great little boy full of cheekiness. I wouldn't be without him now.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

I'm sorry I don't agree, my DDB puppy was extremely snappy as a puppy right up until she was almost 6 months old I wouldn't have dreamt about getting a behaviourist in at such a young age (normal puppy behaviour in my opinion) I would say she was still very much finding her feet at that age as to regards still getting to know us as her family & having to adjust to getting used to living in a multi dog household. 

It IS behaviour she HAS NOT continued to express into her adult life, I would tend to lean towards thinking you don't seem to have an awful lot of patience with him whatsoever - probably WHY he's doing it in the first place.

And by lord if that isn't a behaviourist after your money, I don't know what is


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> The reason we first got a westie, is because we saw one outside a shop and it was so freindly. My friend used to have one which was really nice.
> 
> We went to 1 puppy class which was very badly run. There were 12 pups to one trainer, which is bad in my opinion. The new class is going to be 6 pups and 2 trainers.
> 
> ...


First mistake you made was buying because you saw a friendly one outside a shop.Alot depends on how they are bred to,i.e from parents with rock solid temperaments.
Second mistake and by the sounds of it you did not research the breed properly,speaking to Breeders with a wealth of experience and years in the breed,who would only be happy to offer lots of support, and advice.

It's never black and white with dogs ever.

Just out of curosity is your puppy registered with the KC or have a pedigree?


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

there is some useful advice in here but i think some of the posts a a little harsh.
I know its only opinions but they can upset people.
and this person is asking for help and people are being rude.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

I've always spoke as I find which okay doesn't give me an awful lot of brownie points - this is pretty much the same post as the other telling me & possibly any others that won't say it that the OP is asking for an overnight miracle - afraid things don't work like that.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

At last!

Thankyou Fade to grey.

Most of the people in the old forum i was joined to were very much like some of the posts I have recieved. Sort of harsh in their wording. Not very diplomatic.



> by the sounds of it you did not research the breed properly


We spent a month talking about what breed we should get every single day! We were very undecided at which breed we should get. When we went to view our westie, we saw the mother and she was very nice. Very calm. There was no reason whatsever to not buy our little boy. We actually have a westie book telling us all about the breed and the temperament etc.



> I would tend to lean towards thinking you don't seem to have an awful lot of patience with him whatsoever


If I had more anymore patience with him, I would be _more _than a saint by now!



> It's never black and white with dogs ever


Oh yes it can be. In regards with rules of the house. The dog needs to know where it stands in the hierarchy of the pack. NO GREY AREAS.

I would love to know what you guys honestly think my puppy is like. Tell me what you think he gets up to in a day. See if you really know my pup at all. From all the replies I have had - including a very harsh "you should rehome him" - it sounds to me like you guys have no idea at all.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

Not looking for an overnight solution. Think I'm after more tailored advice. Which I am not going to get here.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

We can only go on what YOU say your puppy is like - I have no opinion on what I THINK he is like, I don't have to live with him. 

Edited to say - How can we as posters repair what possible damage you have done to your own puppy admitting that you have scruffed him round the neck - I wouldn't say rehoming him was harsh - Just the right thing for your puppy (yes, a puppy) that you cannot seem to cope with. I stand by my views. But, whatever you decide to do - good luck with him.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

I have never ever shaken him. But thanks nicci for wishing me good luck.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> I have never ever shaken him. But thanks nicci for wishing me good luck.


I realised that - which I have now edited my fingers work faster than my brain 

I have no advice as such just give him some time & lots of patience and reward based treat training - like I said in a previous post I think he's just being pretty normal, although I have no experience myself of owning Westies I have known folk that have owned them, or do own them I grew up with one called Hetty she belonged to my uncle Cecil, used to love walking her she was lovely!


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

A month  Is that all?
People take months even years researching possible breeds that would suit them.
How many Breeders did you get in touch with?
Books are ok, god knows I have loads of them but they can never prepare you for what is actually like,people who own the breed and have done for years will tell you what there like to live with.

Is your puppy registered or have a pedigree?


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

she sounds lovely Nicci.

We took a month to decide whether to get a dog or not. whether to get another spaniel. 

It shouldn't have to take years to decide.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> she sounds lovely Nicci.
> 
> We took a month to decide whether to get a dog or not. whether to get another spaniel.
> 
> It shouldn't have to take years to decide.


I don't think it's about deciding, it's about researching a breed properly,what breed traits they have,suitability for an individuals situation,living acommadation,talking to people who own the breed your interested in,finding a good breeder etc......

Will you please answer my question is your pup registered?


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

The pup has a registered affix, registered breeder of Springers and working gundogs. Advertised on epupz


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

I really think it may be worth that the OP gave the the breeders a call for some much needed advice given their background of breeding Spaniels & working Gundogs. 

Just because a puppy has been advertised for sale via e-pupz doesn't necessarily mean they are unethical or bad breeders. Not where I would advertise mind, but I suppose many people do.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> I have listened to the advice.


You've listened but have you actually implemented any of it?



B17_Fan said:


> If someone gave me the right advice that will work then I wouldn't have to keep asking.


What makes you think any of the advice given is wrong? I think you've recieved some very good advice and the only problem is that you haven't tried it or expect it to work overnight.



B17_Fan said:


> Most of the people in the old forum i was joined to were very much like some of the posts I have recieved. Sort of harsh in their wording. Not very diplomatic.


Peoples patience is wearing thin and can you blame them? You've been given advice and refuse to even try it from what I can work out. What's the point in anyone giving you advice if you aren't going to try it?



B17_Fan said:


> I would love to know what you guys honestly think my puppy is like. Tell me what you think he gets up to in a day. See if you really know my pup at all. From all the replies I have had - including a very harsh "you should rehome him" - it sounds to me like you guys have no idea at all.


I don't think anyone has judged the poor pup. Numerous people have said it sounds like he's just being a puppy and you need to curb this behaviour, just as everyone had to do with their own dogs when they were puppies.

Like Jackson said if you are considering a behaviourist at 18 weeks you've gone very wrong and I agree with Nicci the puppy would probably be best of being re-homed. Sorry if you feel that is harsh but I'm afraid I'm more concerned about the pup than your feelings.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

Nicci said:


> I really think it may be worth that the OP gave the the breeders a call for some much needed advice given their background of breeding Spaniels & working Gundogs.
> 
> Just because a puppy has been advertised for sale via e-pupz doesn't necessarily mean they are unethical or bad breeders. Not where I would advertise mind, but I suppose many people do.


That's why I asked if he was registered, and was wondering about how the puppy is bred and see what dogs are behind the puppy, and if any have issues.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

I don't know whether anyone actually works their Westies anymore, I believe not - does anyone have any idea? Would it be possible this dog has come from working stock?

Sorry, I don't have a clue, my knowledge of Westies is not very good the only ones I have known in my lifetime have been sold as companion animals.


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## HandsOnPaws (Apr 18, 2008)

The Sire's name is a working labrador male and the dam's name is also on springer pups advertised on the net, somehow i don't think the 'breeder' will give a fig!


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

to me it sounds like everyone is trying to scare new people off of getting a dog. everyone makes mistakes with their first dog. like with children.

it's a shame the harsh rude and mean people out weight the lovely people on here now.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

> Like Jackson said if you are considering a behaviourist at 18 weeks you've gone very wrong and I agree with Nicci the puppy would probably be best of being re-homed. Sorry if you feel that is harsh but I'm afraid I'm more concerned about the pup than your feelings


I am no expert in puppy training. I doubt anyone is when they first get a puppy. At least I recognise that there is an issue which needs sorting out. It is absolute nonsense that my puppy needs to be rehomed. He has a bond with us and we have a bond with him. It would be too traumatic for all concerned. It would break my heart to see him go.It is unthinkable. He belongs here where he is loved. I can't believe anyone has suggested this to be honest. Show's how much commitment they think a person who is having problems should have. "oh my dog has problems, I think i'll rehome him and pass his problems onto someone else." words fail me. 

Ta fade to grey. This is certainly true


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> Show's how much commitment they think a person who is having problems should have. "oh my dog has problems, I think i'll rehome him and pass his problems onto someone else." words fail me.


We had never had a puppy before until 11 weeks ago. We got two pups a few days apart and we've managed just fine. I would never rehome by pups because of ANY problem, I would sort the problem out. If I had a problem I didn't know the answer to I'd ask for advice on here and implement that advice not dismiss it and ask again and again.

Members on here such as, but not limited to; Jackson, HandsOnPaws, Tashi and Sallyanne I would take their advice without hesitation, they KNOW exactly what they are talking about.

The fact that you have been given good solid advice and dismissed it completely is what worries me. If you are inexperienced and are struggling fine, but to blatently rubbish knowledgable peoples advice and then ask and ask again is rediculous. As well as the trivial errors you have already made, that is why I personally feel the pup would be better off elsewhere.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

If anyone has had experience with terriers, they'll know that the softly softly approach doesn't always work. You have to be very firm with them and take no rubbish from them.

I have read the advice and certainly not dismissed it. If anyone would like to actually go back to the original question on this post, then they'll see that i am asking about WHY puppies snap at things other than human hands.

These forums I have been on are not my only source of advice. I have plenty of books and one of my family works with army dogs.

If anyone thinks I am just going to take this criticism then they are mistaken. 

Ollie isn't going anywhere. He is part of our family. I think I've probably painted the wrong picture of how our little chap behaves. I'm lost for words as to how to get my point across now. 

We're all strangers and I am asking strangers for advice when they don't know the first thing about me. 

I SO regret ever coming here!


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I have read this thread and I wished I had been a member of a forum 3 years ago.

This is all good sound advice, I had to search the internet for possible solutions. I panicked when I read about puppies biting/nipping and mouthing could mean it will become an aggressive dog.

My dog Duke turned on me twice as a puppy. He couldn't play without biting or nipping. I dreaded him waking up.

It took that long to get him out of it, I didn't think I was ever going to do it and started to resign myself to the fact that he was always going to mouth, cannot honestly remember how long.

The best solution was to isolate him only for a couple of minutes any longer and he forgot why he'd been isolated and the game started all over again.

Never had him to a behaviourist, he started to improve as formal training started. Like sit just before his teeth sank in.

Even today he will mouth if he get over excited but there are no teeth marks or blood anymore. Thinking about it I can't remember the last time he did mouth me or anyone.

What I am trying to say is that puppies explore with their mouths they get over zealous sometimes the older the puppy becomes the stronger his jaw. Yes they also feel their feet and growl, snap and bite. I used to offer Duke toys instead of my fingers or hand.

Sue


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## Fade to Grey (Nov 10, 2007)

don't leave because of a few people, there are some wonderful people on here.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

I won't leave. Not when there _are_ people who are supportive of me on here


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> If anyone has had experience with terriers, they'll know that the softly softly approach doesn't always work. You have to be very firm with them and take no rubbish from them.


What exactly do you mean by firm?


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> If anyone has had experience with terriers, they'll know that the softly softly approach doesn't always work. You have to be very firm with them and take no rubbish from them.


It's not just terriers that can be like this - I have breeds that have tested me until I have reached my wits end - We used to grab hold of our American Bulldogs collar when she got over excited as a youngster and softly but firmly lead her to her basket/dog bed and close the safety gate behind us keeping her out of the front room until she calmed herself down a little, she could still see us, btw was just refused contact until she had calmed down - our DDB puppy had the very same treatment - if they moved we'd lead them back to their beds and say 'STAY' quite firmly but not shouting at them, they soon got fed up and quickly learned that over excitment meant having to spend some time away from us for half an hour. Plus they learnt they could go to their beds when they needed some time out from us & the kids too.



> If anyone would like to actually go back to the original question on this post, then they'll see that i am asking about WHY puppies snap at things other than human hands.


I have gone back to the first post you made.
Puppies snap at things for all sorts of reasons, when you stated he's jumping up for magazines on your footstool, this simpy implies to me he's exhibiting normal playful puppy behaviour, it's something he is certainly not doing to defy you.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

OK. I'll tell you a story about one of my puppy buyers. It may or may not help you.

Very lovely woman rang me when one o four pups (previously all booked) becamse re-available. She had older teenage children, was at home all day, and now her youngest son was off to college, she felt she had time for another dog. They had previously had one dog, a GSD, from puppy to when she died at 17.

Lady came to visit and I loved her. She had bought all sorts of dog books already, had really looked into things, knew what questions to ask me etc etc. I took a deposit and she then started to visit me, Mum and pups 2-3 times per week, sometimes more, even when the pups were still too yooung for me to allow visitors in the room with them. I held the pup up to the window for her to see. She had pup booke din for training by the time she was 3 weeks old, so she could start as soon as clear of her second vacc. They were lovely, lovely people and I have to admit, I liked them most out of all my puppy buyers.

They took their pup at 8 weeks, rang me to let me know how she was, brought her to visit etc. Then at 4 months I got an email from them saying that pup was attacking them, and what should they do? I rang them immediately and after a chat said it sounded like play biting that had got out of hand to me. They insisted it was a 'frenzied attack' so I went to visit next day and see the behaviour for myself. It was play biting that was _really_ out of hand, and sadly also reinforced as they had done all the wrong things to try an dget her to stop it, like shouting 'no' pushing her off, the husband even resorted to pinning her down once, which upset both owners immensly.

Anyway, I offered to take the pup back if they wanted me to, which they didn't, so I explained how to deal with it. They listened to the advice and tried their hardest, but the behaviour persisted. Then pup came to stay with me for a week, and although she attempted the behaviour a couple of times in the first day or so, then nothing. When she went home again, the behaviour didn't show itself for some time, then surfaced. However, they were able to deal with it and puppy is now 7 months old and the behaviour has pretty much stopped.

The reason I am telling you this is that an intelligent, sensible couple who were prepared to listen to the correct advice given (all the time whilst attending training classes aswell) still found it very, very hard to correct the problem. To the point the lady concerned was in tears, feeling she was ruining her puppy, and I wished they'd give her back to me at times. However, they have turned out to be the wonderful home I had imagined. 

If it was hard for them, I wonder how hard you might find it, as you don't seem prepared to listen to the advice being given. You have a real problem with your pup. Those who are giving you advice do not have problems with their dogs/puppies, and that is for a reason, so why do you constantly shun the advice because it is not what you want to hear?


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

By firm, I mean show them who's boss. For example, I was told in the last forum that I shouldn't get hold of my dog by his collar to drag him out from under a hedge say, but to get a toy or treat to distact him. This never worked with him and I have since read that you have GOT to get them used to this, because it might have to be done in an emergency one day. It could save their life.

I hope you don't think that I mean firm as in physical reprimanding. It means that if I want to stroke my dog and they are growling or snapping, then I am NOT going to stop and let him get his own way. I'll do it on my terms, not his.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

Dear oh dear,I can see this ending in one of two ways


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

I am not shunning advice. I HAVE read the advice given. I have done sooooooo much to help the wee fellow. 

This is all turning into too much of an argument if you ask me. No one needs to keep replying anymore because I can handle this. I am filled to the brim with so many conflicting pieces of advice.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

ajshep1984 said:


> What exactly do you mean by firm?


I wondered that aswell.

B17 Fan, you need to understand how a dog's mind works a bit more. Even with breed differences, they are all pretty much the same.

Dogs are not stubborn, or difficult, but they are selfish. They want to know what is in it for them. For example. My oldest girl is pretty much perfectly trained. She understands and follows all the basic commands pretty much instantly. However, if I am laying on the sofa watching TV, she'll often come and sit in front of me, blocking my view. I'll ask her to 'down' and she _never _ will on the first ask. Very often not on the second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth attempt, or maybe not at all. My husband says (affectinately!) that she is a stubborn cow. I can see why it appears that is the case. However, the reason she doesn't 'down' when I ask her in that circumstance is simple. She knows the chance of her getting a treat for the 'down' in that instance is absolutely zero. She simply isn't motivated to do it. It would be easy to train her otherwise, but it just doesn't bother me enough.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> I hope you don't think that I mean firm as in physical reprimanding. It means that if I want to stroke my dog and they are growling or snapping, then I am NOT going to stop and let him get his own way. I'll do it on my terms, not his.


That's why I asked because I didn't want to jump to conclusions. The advice that has been given is very good advice, could you not at least try it before saying it is wrong?

What have you actually tried to curb this behaviour?

I think all dogs need to be treated firm but fair, that doesn't mean that they can't be treated this way positively though.


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

> Dear oh dear,I can see this ending in one of two ways


What do you mean?


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> I am not shunning advice. I HAVE read the advice given. I have done sooooooo much to help the wee fellow.
> 
> This is all turning into too much of an argument if you ask me. No one needs to keep replying anymore because I can handle this. I am filled to the brim with so many conflicting pieces of advice.


I don't understand what conflicting advice you have been given?

People are trying to help you! I am sure you have the best intentions, but you have completely the wrong approach.

If a dog is barking, snapping and growling when you do something, continuing to do it is asking to be bitten. Luckily for you, a Westie is unlikely to do too much damage, a bigger dog could be a totally different story. Growiling is the dogs way of saying 'i don't like that'. You do not need to be firm with him, yuo need to try and decide why he doesn't like it, and find a way to make him like it (usually by reinforcing the action with a reward, such as food).


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> What do you mean?


Well one outcome is the dog mauls someone because it knows no better.....


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

To try and curb his behaviour we have tried the shake bottle or water squirt which didn't work as it wound him up further, so that went out the window.

We tried putting him out the room to wait til he calms down. This is still quite effective.

We try and redirect his attention onto toys if he bites us, but this doesn't always work.

We try to ignore him if he snaps at us or growls. 

We ignore his barking, but sometimes he barks for so long that you just can't help but tell him to be quiet.

saying "ow" when being bitten doesn't work. It makes him more excited.


It is refreshing for someone to ask actually what steps we have taken. Rather than just accuse me of not taking heed.

I'll try think of more things that we do with him. It's late and my brains turning a bit mushy! lol


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> I'll try think of more things that we do with him. It's late and my brains turning a bit mushy! lol


How long have you tried these things for? None of them will work overnight and may take weeks, even months depending on the dog in question. It took us a few days to stop Trinny puppy biting but over a month to stop Jayjay doing it. You have to be patient and whichever you felt was the best method stick with it until it pays off. Changing the method of training will just confuse the pup!


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

> Changing the method of training will just confuse the pup!


True. But it takes time to find a method that works.

By the way, we have been asking for advice since ollie was 9 weeks old, so we have spent time trying different things.


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## jackson (May 22, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> To try and curb his behaviour we have tried the shake bottle or water squirt which didn't work as it wound him up further, so that went out the window.
> 
> We tried putting him out the room to wait til he calms down. This is still quite effective.
> 
> ...


Ok. He's only very young, and I think you are simply trying too many things and not being consistent enough.

I would suggest _never_ using a rattle bottle or squirting water. Both are negative reinforcement, and your timing needs to be absolutely spot on. It also has the potential to make problems worse very quickly.

I would try the yelping and if yelping twice (be very high pitched and sound like a pup) doesn't work, then stand up and ignore him, if that doesn't work, leave the room. Wait outside for 10 seconds then come back in. Do not speak or say anything else. Make sure if he does stop biting when you yelp you say 'good boy' and play with him. You need to do this, and _only_ this every time he bites. Every single time. 100% consistentcy.

DO ignore the barking, every single time you eventually tell him to be quiet, especially if it is longer all the time, you are just training him that he needs to bark for _ages_ to get your attention.

Also, bear in mind extinction bursts. If your dog is doing something that previously got him attention (biting or barking) when the behaviour stops getting him the attention, he is going to try even harder to get attention.

This explains it quite well:

Nothing in Life is Free


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> What do you mean?





B17_Fan said:


> True. But it takes time to find a method that works.
> 
> By the way, we have been asking for advice since ollie was 9 weeks old, so we have spent time trying different things.


As the other's have said it will only confuse your pup by trying different things,how long have you tried these things for before switching to another method?

We stuck to one method only it took a good few months but it paid off,you won't see results overnight it may take a good few months.

What I mean't was because this puppy is getting confused and your not sticking to one method you will have a puppy that you can't do anything with,totally out of control,with behaviour issues that later on may need rehoming,or a dog that bites a person or child due to not training correctly.

Tyler was a nightmare for biting,feet,hands,you name it,we replaced our hands feet etc with toys if he carried on,we stood up and totally ignored him,till he'd calmed down,the link Jackson posted is good.
Don't forget your puppy will also be teething and will need something to chew on.Kongs frozen are good.
Jackson's post above is also good advice again so is the link.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> As the other's have said it will only confuse your pup by trying different things,how long have you tried these things for before switching to another method?
> 
> We stuck to one method only it took a good few months but it paid off,you won't see results overnight it may take a good few months.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you, Duke was the same as Tyler and I handled him in much the same way as you did.

I tried to read Duke as there are times when a puppy will want to rest or have his own space that too has to be respected.

When Duke turned on me as a puppy I was lifting him from an area he shouldn't have been, to one that was okay and safe. He had other ideas.

This afternoon hubby got Duke over excited big time who got a telling off - hubby big time because I had to calm Duke down. SBT are hyper so it doesn't take much for things to get out of hand the rougher you play the rougher they become.

Sue


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

> SBT are hyper so it doesn't take much for things to get out of hand the rougher you play the rougher they become.


I think this is quite true for the terrier temperament. Our westie gets hyper even by just playing ball with him.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

B17_Fan said:


> I think this is quite true for the terrier temperament. Our westie gets hyper even by just playing ball with him.


 and once he gets over excited, starts nipping etc., stop the game. There is no time scale anyone can give you as to when your puppy will grow out of this stage. Some puppies are very quick to learn others choose to be a bit more defiant. You need to be consistant.

My dog can still get carried away at 3 years old. My point was that the rules I set when he was a puppy I still implement today if necessary.

I think terriers are the teenage rebels of the canines, like teenages you have to be one step ahead of the game. 

Sue


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## B17_Fan (Apr 30, 2008)

Thankyou Sue. I am not expecting him to totally grow out of it. Just to calm down a little


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