# New and wanted to say hi



## pippa234

Hi, I posted this in the introductions section, but a little unsure where I may get the best advice! So posting it again here in the hope someone will give me some advice and guidence please!

I have three cats, 1 male black and white Norwegian Forest cat, he is now 9 years old 1 rescue black short hair (female) cat who is now 10 years old and a maine coon female, she is 3 and I took her in from a friend who had just split with her husband. She had two others who went to the local rescue feline welfare centre and I feel so bad I couldn't take them also :-(
My other two cats just stayed away from her, and I now realise why, she is very definitely pregnant, although I was told she had been neutered. I have an appointment to take her to the vets next week, on Thursday, but believe this last week her getting quite big I wont be able to have her neutered now as it is too late.?? How can I help her, she is very affectionate which is reassuring as she clearly trusts me. I've never had a pregnant cat before


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## gloworm*mushroom

How strange. Have you asked your friend why she lied about her being neutered :S

Take her to the vet anyway, they can indeed spay during pregnancy depending on how long she is gone, and they will be able to advise you on that.

If she is to have the kittens she needs to have a safe area away from your other cats to have her kittens and keep them away form your other cats for around 6-8 weeks. She will need to be on a high quality diet from now on to make sure she is getting ample nutrition. You will also need scales to weigh everyday.


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## pippa234

Hi thank you, I did indeed speak to her about it, but as she also used me as an excuse while having an affair I realise now she isn't the best person to trust, she said she hasn't had kittens before, but she did give me her pedigree papers, but they are just a form filled out not like the ones I got with my old boy the Norwegian Forest cat! 
All of that not important really, I honestly think she may be ready to have the kittens, and I'm happy to take the time to look after them and find them homes but just a bit shocked at having such a big burden, I dont even have children so cant even empathize! She is a beautiful cat though and so affectionate so I'm hoping I can have her neutered if it's not too late.


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Hi thank you, I did indeed speak to her about it, but as she also used me as an excuse while having an affair I realise now she isn't the best person to trust, she said she hasn't had kittens before, but she did give me her pedigree papers, but they are just a form filled out not like the ones I got with my old boy the Norwegian Forest cat!
> All of that not important really, I honestly think she may be ready to have the kittens, and I'm happy to take the time to look after them and find them homes but just a bit shocked at having such a big burden, I dont even have children so cant even empathize! She is a beautiful cat though and so affectionate so I'm hoping I can have her neutered if it's not too late.


Its really amazing what people will lie about! If theres one thing ive learned in the past week, it is that!

Your vet will be able to tell you more accurately. Is there any chance you can get her seen sooner? Whether she can be spayed, or she is close to having them, she needs to be seen quite soon I would say


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## pippa234

I think they must be close to being born simply as it's taken her a while to get to trust me but she has started sleeping on my bed and yesterday she jumped on my lap for over 2 hours and i felt this big tummy, and i definitely felt kicking in her tummy, i havent got close to her before like that and she is so fluffy i assumed like boy she was just 'big' as he is a monster! I'm working all week this week and my job wont let me take time off to get her to the vets before thursday, but i will ask to take holiday if i have to if she is too late and i need to be with her. I have only had her about 3 weeks but to be honest the first two weeks my friend said just to look after her for her..


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> I think they must be close to being born simply as it's taken her a while to get to trust me but she has started sleeping on my bed and yesterday she jumped on my lap for over 2 hours and i felt this big tummy, and i definitely felt kicking in her tummy, i havent got close to her before like that and she is so fluffy i assumed like boy she was just 'big' as he is a monster! I'm working all week this week and my job wont let me take time off to get her to the vets before thursday, but i will ask to take holiday if i have to if she is too late and i need to be with her. I have only had her about 3 weeks but to be honest the first two weeks my friend said just to look after her for her..


if you can feel them it is probably too late. I would definitely be looking to take some time off as you really need to be there for her during the birth (which will be at the most inconvenient time possible for you!) and for a few weeks afterwards.

One thing I will say, do not mention the kittens to your friend. Those who rehome cats tend to want kittens when they are mentioned.


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## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> if you can feel them it is probably too late. I would definitely be looking to take some time off as you really need to be there for her during the birth (which will be at the most inconvenient time possible for you!) and for a few weeks afterwards.
> 
> One thing I will say, do not mention the kittens to your friend. Those who rehome cats tend to want kittens when they are mentioned.


I am so annoyed with her to be honest, but that's another story, the cat is my main concern at the moment. You say if I can feel them moving? I do, they are definitely, on my lap which i count as 1 and where i lay my hand on the top of her tummy i count as two, this is what made me realise she just isnt a big cat like my boy (he has been brilliant though, softy that he is)! Is she likely to be close, as I have to be up for work at 6am everyday and not back until 6pm :-/


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## gloworm*mushroom

Im no expert but I believe you can feel them at around 7 weeks, so thats quite far along, but by all means speak to your vet.

Honestly, I would really try and get her to a vet. Is there anyone who could take her for you? Do you live close enough to work to take her in your dinner hour? Or manage to get a flyer and leave early?


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## pippa234

Ok, thank you for your advice, yes i will try and get some time off tomorrow then and see if i can re-book with my vet. Thank you!


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## pippa234

Hi again, thank you for the advice to take her to the vets, I managed to pull a sicky this morning and got her to the vets, she is anything from now to a week away, I am going to take the rest of the week off and have been told to take her back next Monday if she hasn't had them by then.. have got plenty of food for her from the vets and got a lot of advice and an emergency number should I need it.

I've managed to get a couple of boxes and filled them with an old pillow each and a couple of towels, she seems to like one but not the other and I've been told to keep her seperated from my other cats. I've had a look on you tube at a couple of cats in labour (eww) lol but glad I did as I have a better idea what to expect. Read through so much on this forum (thank you) and really learnt a lot.

She has a beautiful personality and luckily seems to trust me, sitting next to me as close as she can get right now!

I will update if theres any news or questions if thats ok?
Thank you again for your help.


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## pippa234

Just a quick question if anyone can help? She has literally had me up all night and not let me leave her side all day, meowing and following me constantly, she has gone in one of her boxes but is in and out of it until i sit by her and she is purring as soon as I do non stop! 
However, she doesn't seem to be contracting or showing any signs of being in actual labour so is this normal for sometime before labour begins?


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## lizward

Yes, you may well have kittens very soon. Try not to worry, statistically most cat births are perfectly straightforward.

Liz


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## spid

oooo exciting


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## pippa234

..quick reply, she jumped on my bed about half an hour ago, has been contracting? doing three short pushes about every 10/5 minutes, nothing happening yet and bless her she held on to my arm stroking her chin and used one of her back legs to push on my other hand.. she's purring and laying on her back, very very laid back!


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## Pippin

Have no advice I'm afraid but just wanted to say what a lovely person you are taking on this cat and now the kittens and taking such good care of her and doing all the research you can. Your friend (if she is still that) is very lucky to have you. Well done and keep us updated


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## Pippin

Crossed post. How exciting; good luck :thumbup:


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## pippa234

No movement yet, she's still very laid back and doing the contracting/little pushes every 5/10 minutes, her rear end is quite messy but definitely no kitten appearing so far


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## pippa234

Still nothing, now she seems to have stopped, not contracting or pushing in the last half an hour :001_huh:


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Still nothing, now she seems to have stopped, not contracting or pushing in the last half an hour :001_huh:


Hopefully someone will come along to help you, my experience ends at very newly born kits I am afraid.


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## pippa234

Still nothing, she's purring and just laying on her back, so for just over an hour she was contracting and straining, she has definitely has had a show, but it's all stopped now. She isn't distressed in any way, but I'm caught at the ridiclous time of night now that should this persist it's emergency number! Anyone that can advise me at what point this is not normal would be appreciated  Oh I really did land a beauty didn't i?!! she loves me already though so definitely worth it!


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Still nothing, she's purring and just laying on her back, so for just over an hour she was contracting and straining, she has definitely has had a show, but it's all stopped now. She isn't distressed in any way, but I'm caught at the ridiclous time of night now that should this persist it's emergency number! Anyone that can advise me at what point this is not normal would be appreciated  Oh I really did land a beauty didn't i?!! she loves me already though so definitely worth it!


I did tell you she'd choose an inconvenient time! I am sure vets whisper to them not to have kittens during normal opening hours!


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## Sadie SU

I think I'd probably phone the vet for advice, if I were you. Can you get the cat to the surgery if they want to see her?


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## pippa234

Sadie SU said:


> I think I'd probably phone the vet for advice, if I were you. Can you get the cat to the surgery if they want to see her?


She isn't distressed just gave them a quick ring and he said she could well wait another 3 hours before starting again, not to worry if she isn't in distress and to call him if she hasn't... lol We just know the way this is going!! :frown2:


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## Sadie SU

I'm glad you called, it'll have put your mind at rest - and now you have a target to work to, if things don't progress. I'm sure she'll be fine...... :thumbup1:


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> She isn't distressed just gave them a quick ring and he said she could well wait another 3 hours before starting again, not to worry if she isn't in distress and to call him if she hasn't... lol We just know the way this is going!! :frown2:


Surely you don't need sleep??


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## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Surely you don't need sleep??


Im not liking you for that comment lol


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## alisondalziel

Hiya 

Just joined in here. 

Good for you for looking after her! :thumbup:

Sounds like you're in for a long night. Get the coffee on and try and enjoy as much as possible. It really is amazing to witness a birth 

There will be someone here pretty much all night if you need any help at all, just shout.

p.s.
welcome to the forum!!


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## pippa234

alisondalziel said:


> Hiya
> 
> Just joined in here.
> 
> Good for you for looking after her! :thumbup:
> 
> Sounds like you're in for a long night. Get the coffee on and try and enjoy as much as possible. It really is amazing to witness a birth
> 
> There will be someone here pretty much all night if you need any help at all, just shout.
> 
> p.s.
> welcome to the forum!!


Thankyou, I've got myself in bed, albeit it in my trackies lol, she's got herself back in her favourite box and is sleeping, I'm not sure what she is doing but the vet didn't seem concerned at all, she did make herself quite messy with the 'show' (she is white) and I was really convinced I'd have seen a kitten by now after the straining!


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## feathered bird lover

just joined in. 
wow kittens. 
don't like the sound of your 'friend' for telliong you weee fibs. 
anyway, hope all goes well. please let us know the outcome.
good luck and i hope your night's not too waring on you or the poor wee cat.


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## alisondalziel

If she has had the 'show', you are looking at birth within 24 hours.

There are different stages of labour. Normally all goes well. 

When her breathing quickens and you can visibly see and feel her sides contracting, birth is near. You will see her pushing and soon after, the first sack will be visible. This should be born within around 15 minutes, any longer and she may need veterinary attention. Have a watch or clock, plus pen and paper and write down times so you know accurately what's happening. 

Write down the time when each kitten is born, and watch out for one placenta for each kitten.

Are you excited?


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## pippa234

alisondalziel said:


> If she has had the 'show', you are looking at birth within 24 hours.
> 
> There are different stages of labour. Normally all goes well.
> 
> When her breathing quickens and you can visibly see and feel her sides contracting, birth is near. You will see her pushing and soon after, the first sack will be visible. This should be born within around 15 minutes, any longer and she may need veterinary attention. Have a watch or clock, plus pen and paper and write down times so you know accurately what's happening.
> 
> Write down the time when each kitten is born, and watch out for one placenta for each kitten.
> 
> Are you excited?


Am I excited?  YESSSSSS!!! I've taken the week off work and not slept hardly but really it will be amazing, I just pray she is going to be ok. xx Do you think the straining may have been part of the show?

She really is the most affectionate little girl, I'm amazed at how much she trusts me! She is completely white and so pretty too, I'm sure the kittens will be adorable, oh my I am going to have my hands full!!


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## alisondalziel

Can you describe the straining? What was her body position when this was happening? Straining is seen in the final stages of labour when the kittens are born. She would have been visibly contracting and pushing. Sometimes they wheeze or cry a little too.

What is she doing now and how is her breathing?

Her behaviour will visibly change when it's time. 

Hopefully you will see some action soon. When did you first see the show?


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## pippa234

She got on my bed and laid on her side and her stomach was very tight, she pushed her back legs out straight and her stomach visibly pushed in and out 3 times, she made the slighest meow a couple of times but not every time she did this, this went on for about an hour with her laying in different positions, on her side and on her back, throughout she was purring.

Sorry, forgot to add, she has got in her box and is curled up sleeping now, she did go to the cat litter a couple of times but had the tiniest of drips. Her breating is much slower than earlier.


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## Lushgirl84

Sounds like shes starting good luck.


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## alisondalziel

Does sound like labour.

Keep an eye on her tonight for sure.

If you get to 24 hours from when you 1st saw the show without a kitten being born or active labour, i would call the vet and say what's happened. 

I would normally say it's braxton hicks but not after the show really.

Bless her purring! My girl purred through most of it too wee soul. 

All the best for tonight. Hopefully all will go well...xx


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## pippa234

Thankyou so much for all your help, I hope I will be able to update with good news soon  xx


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## lizward

Active labour can certainly last three hours before the first kitten is delivered, but I would certainly expect there to have been a kitten born by now. However if the kitten was stuck you would have seen hard straining and a very distressed cat. It could be that labour has simply stopped in which case oxytocin might start it off again, or you might end up with a caesarean. I hope not. Good luck.

Liz


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## alisondalziel

Morning love, was thinking about you and your cat last night, what's the news this morning?


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## Sadie SU

Hope it's all going well, and that you've not been back to update the thread because you're too busy looking after a litter of healthy kittens and a contented momma cat..... :goodvibes:


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## Misi

OMG How exciting is this???? I hope we'll have an announcement soon


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## alisondalziel

Not sure why but something is telling me they aren't born yet.

Fingers crossed all is well but it is unusual to have straining without kittens being produced then stopping like that. 

That happened to me with my first child and i had to be given Oxytocin...


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## pippa234

No news i'm afrad, she slept all night and was next to me on my bed, I'm takng her to the vets in an hour to get her checked, thankyou for all your messages. x


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## MoggyBaby

Just picked up on this thread and am now waiting with bated breath for the next post........ Really hoping that everything is well with the little mommy. 

Your friend is no friend hun and it sounds to me like you're better off with her. Certainly the pusskins is.

Well done for your commitment to this little girl and we look forward to seeing lots of pics once everything has settled down.


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## gloworm*mushroom

Good luck at the vets, hope all is well!


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## welshjet

Ooh, i tend to stay out of the breeding section but just saw your post. Well done you, dont know abou your friend, but your certainly an angel to your four pawed friend

Hope all going well

Clare x


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## pippa234

Sorry I haven't been back to update today, Tinker is fine she has been staying at the nice vets  all day to be monitered, she is not in any distress so they have decided to leave her to start her labour up again herself, they said she should within the next 24 hours but obviously may need a c section if she becomes distressed. (my quote was £490 plus £50 for the anaesthetic and £50 for aftercare) 

Please all cross your fingers, legs,toes and everything else she delivers naturally. xx


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Sorry I haven't been back to update today, Tinker is fine she has been staying at the nice vets  all day to be monitered, she is not in any distress so they have decided to leave her to start her labour up again herself, they said she should within the next 24 hours but obviously may need a c section if she becomes distressed. (my quote was £490 plus £50 for the anaesthetic and £50 for aftercare)
> 
> Please all cross your fingers, legs,toes and everything else she delivers naturally. xx


I hope everything goes smoothly...


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## pippa234

Thank you for all your lovely messages today, I am a little more clued up thanks to the vet today, he explained that cats are more than capable of stopping their labour and re-starting it again, she really is very relaxed now and wasn't stressed with any of the poking or prodding either  He really stressed that if she wasn't distressed then I shouldn't worry, but the second she is to call him.. and he reassured me so much by keeping her for the day to monitor her.

I've become ridiculously attached to her and even shed a tear or two in the vets prior to her being seen at the thought of something being wrong 
I haven't had any further contact with her owner/my ex-friend and am quite relieved she hasn't been intouch too 

Tinker is sleeping in her box again now, in my bedroom, which I have been in almost 24/7 these last few days! I will try and post some pictures when the little lady has her babies. xx


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## gloworm*mushroom

They can stop it if they feel threatened or unsafe, but honestly I can't see why she would have done that in the situation you described.

but yeah hopefully soon there will be some movement, she's been going a long time now!


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## Pippin

Glad you have a nice vet that has put your mind at rest a bit  Wishing you and your special girl lots and lots of luck and everything crossed for having a natural easy delivery with her babies and that everything goes well. Keep us updated


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## pippa234

I'm sure she felt safe but there may have been the issue with my other cats that possibly may have been the reason? as every time I stood up to go out of the bedroom she would meow and try to follow me, and although I've been keeping the other cats seperate they are in the house and need my attention. It's the only reason I can think of, as she doesn't really know them yet having only been here a few weeks.

I can't thank you all enough for the support you are giving me, it really is such a lovely forum. xx


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## gloworm*mushroom

It may have been the other cats. Is there any way to have a 'room' between her and the other cats, like having the hall as a cat fee space? (hard to describe without knowing your layout!)


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## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> It may have been the other cats. Is there any way to have a 'room' between her and the other cats, like having the hall as a cat fee space? (hard to describe without knowing your layout!)


No, this is why I'm thinking it may have been the other cats, my bedroom is out of bounds to them, but they often sleep on the landing outside my door, they meow if they are hungry or want to go out, but as i've been virtually in my room 24/7 they have been outside my room letting me know when they want to go out etc but they do have the run of the whole house, which all of downstairs is completely open plan up to the landing which has my room to the top of the stairs and another opposite and a bathroom. 
What I've been doing is keeping them out and Tinker in, if that makes sense?


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## alisondalziel

Just caught up again. Good to hear she's been seen and you can relax a little.

That sounds about right for c-section really. It's a lot of money, vets are never cheap!!

How is she now? My fingers are really crossed for you this evening!! Spot of curry for her i think lol!! (joking) 

How are you bearing up? x


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## welshjet

Keeping fingers and paws crossed that all goes well and naturally for you 

Clare xxx


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## pippa234

alisondalziel said:


> Just caught up again. Good to hear she's been seen and you can relax a little.
> 
> That sounds about right for c-section really. It's a lot of money, vets are never cheap!!
> 
> How is she now? My fingers are really crossed for you this evening!! Spot of curry for her i think lol!! (joking)
> 
> How are you bearing up? x


Thanks hun, so lovely of you to care, I'm ok, stuck in my bedroom yet again, she is fast asleep in her 'big box' this is the one she didn't want to know at first, I get the occasional 'meow' and she wants me to rub her belly, I've never done this sort of thing before my other cats are both 'done' male and femail but just not attention seeking like her!!
Cancelled my date even for her tonight with my toyboy so she must be worth it.. :001_huh:
It was a very simple fact from my vet, if she isn't distressed .. leave her.. it's very very rare that a cat can't cope on her own!
So that is what I am trying to do, I guess some things just aren't 'text book' xx


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## alisondalziel

She sounds peaceful (and blissfully aware of what she's putting you through) 

Oooooh toyboy lol!! Sounds exciting. Sometimes think i could use an OH upgrade haha. Did i just say that! 

What the vet said is true and yes that is often the case but there are situations where they need help. In the wild mothers who have problems in childbirth don't make it...

I feel that instinct often guides us. If you feel things are ok, they probably are and vice versa. If she is calm and content you are probably best just to wait. 

Can you still see and feel the kittens moving around?


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## pippa234

alisondalziel said:


> She sounds peaceful (and blissfully aware of what she's putting you through)
> 
> Oooooh toyboy lol!! Sounds exciting. Sometimes think i could use an OH upgrade haha. Did i just say that!
> 
> What the vet said is true and yes that is often the case but there are situations where they need help. In the wild mothers who have problems in childbirth don't make it...
> 
> I feel that instinct often guides us. If you feel things are ok, they probably are and vice versa. If she is calm and content you are probably best just to wait.
> 
> Can you still see and feel the kittens moving around?


Yes, felt the two I could before but slight movement and not sure if only one moved, but the vet had a really good feel and listen and said there was no cause for concern with them, I stupidly asked how many there were but he laughed and said without a scan he couldn't tell 
Cute vet too.. oh sorry, i guess i'm just feeling all hormonal lol
And yes date with my toyboy a whole 8 years younger lol shame on me  now he is really cute! lol He did actually say 'aww poor kitty' when I told him my excuse, but I know who is more important right now!


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## missye87

I hope everything goes smoothly for your girl, it's a great thing that you have taken her on as no doubt she will have a better chance with you, having sought information about child birth and doing as much reading up as possible, rather than somebody who, by the sounds of it, would have just left her to it and hoped for the best. xxx


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## honeysmummy

Hi, 

Just read through thread and wanted to say i think both and you and Tinker are doing great. I think you are fantastic for taking all of this in your stride and agree with comments about your ex friend !!!

Keeping everything crossed for you and your fur baby

Kelly xx


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## pippa234

honeysmummy said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just read through thread and wanted to say i think both and you and Tinker are doing great. I think you are fantastic for taking all of this in your stride and agree with comments about your ex friend !!!
> 
> Keeping everything crossed for you and your fur baby
> 
> Kelly xx


Thank you everyone again, I've slightly re-named her to Tinks, she responds to that and I'm happy because it's our identity between us.. she is very subdued and still isn't drinking or eating .. nor have I come to think of it!!! oh what have I got myself into!! Just cant wait to show you pictures, she is adorable!! xxx


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## pippa234

First kitty coming cant stay xx all good so far


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## Misi

Ohhhhhh!!!!! I hope all goes well. Have a fantastic night and I'll see you in the morning!!! Hugs to all


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## pippa234

legs out and isnt budging, been bout half an hour, do i intervene now? help..


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## pippa234

anyone?? pull down between the legs i was told? is this ok?


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> anyone?? pull down between the legs i was told? is this ok?


Oh please ring the vets! I honestly dont know about pulling it out, hopefully someone will be along who has more experience, but half an hour is an awful long time for it to be stuck


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## lizward

pippa234 said:


> legs out and isnt budging, been bout half an hour, do i intervene now? help..


Answering quickly - am assuming you mean kitten stuck halfway out. Have you KY jelly? If so, smear it liberally all around the area. Get a towel or something and pull gently but only as the queen strains.

Hate to tell you but the chances are very high this one will be dead I'm afraid, dead kittens are much harder to give birth to than live ones. First litter, first kitten and legs first is not a good combination 

Liz


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## Lushgirl84

oh golly gosh, doesnt sound too good im affraid, half hour is way too long for the kitten to be stuck.


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## pippa234

Just quickly replying as left this open on lappy, yes im afraid first kitty hasnt been able to be revived ive tried but was just so limp when it came out, ive rung my vet on his mobile  and he told me to just keep massaging it
second has just come and suckling right now and both me and tinks are taking a rest xx please excuse spelling both my laptop and me are very tired!!! xx we have one pure white kitty  xx


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## pippa234

My last update for tonight, she seems totally rested now and looks so in heaven, i tried with the first kitten but it just is so limp  
Little armani, yes, it's already got a name lol is suckling away, (armani because I could have had a pair of armani glasses for what this cat has cost me so far lol.. the next one if there is one is either jimmy or choo lol)! xxxx


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## lizward

Well I hope the second one thrives, let us know if there are any more.

Liz


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## MoggyBaby

Pippa - you deserve a big gold star for what you have done for Tinks. Well done to both of you. So sorry to hear that kitten # 1 didn't make it...  but have got everything crossed for wee Armani. So far, this one sounds as though it has got it all sussed.....

Please keep us updated - after you've had some sleep of course - and piccies when mummy & baby are all settled.

Now here's that gold star.....








PS: Big :thumbup: on the Toyboy hun, a girl after me own heart.


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## alisondalziel

Wish i'd stayed on a bit longer last night! :mad2:

How's things now?


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## missye87

How are they getting on? x


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## Pippin

Sorry I missed this last night.

Hope kitty no2 is ok and the rest if there are anymore. You tried your best with the first baby, hope you are ok? Hope Mum is ok too


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## Misi

So, any more news???


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## carlisfluffybundles

Hi whatv a lovely lady you are. so sorry about kitten one, hope mum and baby are doing well x


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## welshjet

Hiya, we've not heard from you for a while, hope all ok

Clare x


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## pippa234

So sorry everyone, my laptop blitzed on me and havent been able to get online.

Sad news, only Armani survived. number 3 and 4 were both stillborn, by the time it came to number 4 i had her at the vets who had been on the phone with me as she was going for so long and had given up. She had an xray and they gave her oxytocin for the 4th kitty, but alas stillborn. Ive taken just a couple of pictures which Im going to text to a kind member on here who offered to post them for me. Mum hasn't bonded well with Armani although I have managed to get her to latch but she wont clean her/him so Ive got some kittymilk and feeding bottle from the vets and am sort of doing half and half.
Not sure how much sense ive made but wanted to get as much info as possible to you while I have use of pc. x


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## alisondalziel

I'm so so sorry about the little ones who didn't make it, what a shame.

You did all you could, don't think anything other than that. Sometimes nature doesn't seem fair, but there is always a reason for everything too.

Here are the photos of mum and baby. I think everyone will agree that they are gorgeous.

All the very best and let's all keep our fingers crossed that baby thrives!!


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## missmoomoo

have just read through all this thread.... RIP the little ones who didn't make it. Thanks for the update and what lovely photo's :001_tt1: beautiful looking mum and baby looks like they will follow suit also. Good luck and keep us up to date when you can


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## Guest

You did such a good job hun *hugs* R.I.P little ones


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## pippa234

Thankyou so much all of you, mum isnt a great mum at all and wont lick Armani at all, Ive had some great help from alison who was kind enough to post the pics for me, so now i'm cleaning bottom too :-(
She allows her to latch but isn't really interested so have to prepare myself there may be a reason why, I have a hot water bottle filled with warm water and covered in fur that i have placed under the towels as kitty isnt being snuggled by mum and im trying to keep her warm, Im really not very good at any of this and pretty scared Im going to fail Armani. God I hope not :-(


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## missmoomoo

although I haven't bred cats, I have bred dogs and a singleton at that. Do you have a wheat bag at all the microwave sort as they can snuggle in to that, or I have even resorted to putting a baby down my top  when we had a power cut and the heat lamp or pad wasn't working. just keep trying to get mum to stay with the baby (don't know how easy this is with a cat) but she doesn't look too disturbed in the pics. Maybe she is just overwhelmed by the whole experience having moved with you, and then given birth etc she may take a few days to settle down. I'm sure you won't fail either of them. Just keep going you are doing a fab job so far


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## MoggyBaby

So sorry to hear about the babies who didn't come through - that must have been so heartbreaking to deal with.... 

However, well done for getting this far with Armani - every day is a victory and he will grow stronger with each one that passes. 

Mummy is absolutely GORGEOUS (but I am biased towards white cats  ) and that is a little baby that you just wanna snuggle into. 

Please keep us updated (the best you can with a temperamental PC!) and I can't WAIT to see more pics. 

(((hugs))) to keep you going and give you strength for the days you feel you are peddling backwards.


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## missye87

Fingers and paws crossed that mommy and Armani do well  xxx


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## welshjet

Hiya, so sorry to hear what happened with the kits, as some one said earlier, nature knows xxx

We are all keeping fingers and paws crossed for armani and also hoping that mums now starting to help a bit for you xxx

And oh boy isnt mum gorgeous no wonder she capivated you xxxx

Concentrate on you, mum and baby kit, just keep us posted as and when you can

clare xxx


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## pippa234

welshjet said:


> Hiya, so sorry to hear what happened with the kits, as some one said earlier, nature knows xxx
> 
> We are all keeping fingers and paws crossed for armani and also hoping that mums now starting to help a bit for you xxx
> 
> And oh boy isnt mum gorgeous no wonder she capivated you xxxx
> 
> Concentrate on you, mum and baby kit, just keep us posted as and when you can
> 
> clare xxx


Thank you so much, it hit me harder than I realised helping deliver the kitties, mum didnt eat the placenta or break the cord on any of the ones born at home, and my sterile scissors and dental floss bought 'incase of emergency' suddenly became a big part of it all. I can't tell you how heartbreaking it was when the 3rd kitty came and I just couldn't get it to breathe and how worrying it was to watch Tinks struggling for so long to push and contract, it was a relief in the end for the vets to take her and do the x-ray and help her with the 4th, and in a way reassuring that with the 4th not surviving it wasn't my fault?? if that makes sense?? 
The vet said Maine coons are notoriously bad mothers also, i dont know if that's true, or was just said to make me feel better, but it worked, and also the vet said she is very humanized and aged her at about 5 years and not 3 ?? 
Anyway, Armani is now attracting a little more of mums attention, and is now being cleaned, I snook her in Tinks tail when she was grooming it and suddenly she was licking Armani too! She has been doing it whenever I lift Armani up and offer her to her when she is grooming, I know it's not ideal, but it's working so far!
I fed her less last night through the night also as mum seemed to be going back in the box when she got hungry, so I'm hoping the bond is coming..
She is indeed the most gorgeous cat and seems to really have won my heart, and it looks like I may have another little addition to the family now as I honestly cant see myself parting with Armani  xx


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## chrissy1982

wow what a amazing hert breaking story i have just read it all and am crying my cat is due any day now i to have sat for hrs watching utube cat birth vidios my cat pregancy wasnt planed the little mo disapeared for 5 days i havent had them long so havent been done yet but she will do as soon as kits all homes imvery excited and feel her tummy all the time i love feeling the babys move and seeing them shes also my shadow follows me everywear 

goodluck xxx


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## honeysmummy

Hi hun,

Its been a crazy few days and i lost track of your thread..so sorry..just found it again.

First of all, biggest hug to you, Tinks and Armani. 
Run free at the bridge little kittens and chase the butterflies 

I really feel for you and it must of been heartbreaking, however your care and love for Tinks has got her so far.....by the way...she is stunning..a real beauty.

Your friends loss is certaintly your gain...and now you have Armani !!!
Something tells me you will not be letting go of her either 

Hoping everyday they bond more and more and Armani gets stronger and stronger

Keep us posted

Love Kelly xx


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## pippa234

honeysmummy said:


> Hi hun,
> 
> Its been a crazy few days and i lost track of your thread..so sorry..just found it again.
> 
> First of all, biggest hug to you, Tinks and Armani.
> Run free at the bridge little kittens and chase the butterflies
> 
> I really feel for you and it must of been heartbreaking, however your care and love for Tinks has got her so far.....by the way...she is stunning..a real beauty.
> 
> Your friends loss is certaintly your gain...and now you have Armani !!!
> Something tells me you will not be letting go of her either
> 
> Hoping everyday they bond more and more and Armani gets stronger and stronger
> 
> Keep us posted
> 
> Love Kelly xx


Thank you so much, Tinks is stunning, but also more so in her personality, indeed she is humanized as she cant stop snuggling me and I wish she would snuggle Armani, I'm constantly having to bring Armani to her on my lap!!!
I just saw my 'friends' other two cats on the website for our local feline welare, It hurts me so much I couldn't take them but they were mother and daughter and needed to stay together, yet here I am with possibly 4 cats anyway! 
Well, very likely .. very very likely indeed!
My other two have been great, the oldest my shorthaired black one keeps trying to nosey but Tinks has already made her mark, the big fat black and white garfield (norwegian forest cat) but so like Garfield it's untrue just lays on his back on my sofa and I dont think he knows anything is going on lol
I will get a lead and try and get some pics up soon, until then I cant show you, I was just so greatful Alison helped me out with the pics of Tinks and Armani. (thankyou Alison)x

Well I'm on my second week off work..and do my work think I'm mad.. erm yes lol 
Thank you so much everyone for all your support, I just hope and pray that Armani my little unique kitty ;-) is a survivor xx


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## gloworm*mushroom

Can you PM me a link to your friends cats in the home Pippa?


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## alisondalziel

Here's the photo Pippa sent me today 

Armani is looking so cute!!! :001_wub:


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## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Can you PM me a link to your friends cats in the home Pippa?


Hi hun I will try and find it again, it's a random thing they do on a local website, so i will try x

Updated **Done, looks they they have found a home though so all good, I hope x


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## pippa234

alisondalziel said:


> Here's the photo Pippa sent me today
> 
> Armani is looking so cute!!! :001_wub:


Thank you so so much for the trouble you have gone to for me and Tinks and Armani xx


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## honeysmummy

They look so beautiful 
Maybe Tinks is taking a little longer to bond with Armani because of the trauma of her labour. Its brilliant she is so close to you..i am sure the three of you will pull through together 

Big hugs to your other cats for being so good...they say cats sense things 

Thanks Alison for helping with the piccies... my heart melts when i look at them

Keep up the good work...will be thinking of you all

Love Kelly xx


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## Misi

This story has been absolutely captivating. They are such a beautiful pair and you have just been amazing.


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## welshjet

Aww beautiful

I didnt realise tinks was an mc - be warned there are loads of mc owners on the forum and they will love her!

All in this house keeping fingers and paws crossed for you, tinks and the gorgeous armarni xxx


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## pippa234

welshjet said:


> Aww beautiful
> 
> I didnt realise tinks was an mc - be warned there are loads of mc owners on the forum and they will love her!
> 
> All in this house keeping fingers and paws crossed for you, tinks and the gorgeous armarni xxx


Haha, she is a beauty, thank you! :smilewinkgrin:
I doubt they would love the vet bill I have just had to deal with though lol!!

She has an almost 'dog like' quality about her, very unusual, but so affectionate, I'm very proud to be her guardian now ;-)


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## missye87

You can count yourself in the MC clan now  
Little Armani looks so adorable, and it does look like they may be bonding a bit better! Or is it just my wishful thinking?  xxx


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## MoggyBaby

welshjet said:


> Aww beautiful
> 
> I didnt realise tinks was an mc - be warned there are loads of mc owners on the forum and they will love her!
> 
> All in this house keeping fingers and paws crossed for you, tinks and the gorgeous armarni xxx


And some of us who don't have an MC but would dearly love to have one love her too!!!!

My dream cat - A WHITE MC!!!!!!! :001_tt1: :001_tt1: :001_tt1:

(but only because DB won't let me have the Luscious Louie who is really, REALLY my dream cat..... :cursing: )   

Mummy and baby are beautiful Pippa and both are a credit to your dedication - had they not come to you, goodness only knows how different the outcome might have been....


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## Misi

MoggyBaby said:


> And some of us who don't have an MC but would dearly love to have one love her too!!!!
> 
> My dream cat - A WHITE MC!!!!!!! :001_tt1: :001_tt1: :001_tt1:
> 
> (but only because DB won't let me have the Luscious Louie who is really, REALLY my dream cat..... :cursing: )
> 
> Mummy and baby are beautiful Pippa and both are a credit to your dedication - had they not come to you, goodness only knows how different the outcome might have been....


There's a breeder down in Rome who has the most fantastic white Maine Coons I've ever seen. We went to a show not too far from us to see them, they are so stunning. They did really well at the show, unsurprisingly! Here's their website: Clabacoons Maine Coon Cattery - Rome


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## pippa234

Thank you all once again for your lovely comments. x
Was up through the night with them, mum just didnt want to sleep in the box with Armani, so had to keep getting her and putting her in when she was due a feed, it's like I dont even have an alarm now to wake me I'm just sleeping with one eye open I reckon!!
I can't believe I've heard Armani purr, and really purr several times today, I didnt know or believe they could at such a young age, it's the tiniest little tractor noise, and so so so cute!
Managed to weigh her today and she is 108 she is definitely a little bigger than she was and she was the smallest of the three born at home, so from now I will keep checking on her. Can anyone tell me how much she should be putting on each day?
I keep calling her a 'she' but I still dont really know if she is or he is a he or a she!!


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Thank you all once again for your lovely comments. x
> Was up through the night with them, mum just didnt want to sleep in the box with Armani, so had to keep getting her and putting her in when she was due a feed, it's like I dont even have an alarm now to wake me I'm just sleeping with one eye open I reckon!!
> I can't believe I've heard Armani purr, and really purr several times today, I didnt know or believe they could at such a young age, it's the tiniest little tractor noise, and so so so cute!
> Managed to weigh her today and she is 108 she is definitely a little bigger than she was and she was the smallest of the three born at home, so from now I will keep checking on her. Can anyone tell me how much she should be putting on each day?
> I keep calling her a 'she' but I still dont really know if she is or he is a he or a she!!


Really you want at least 10g a day.

Are you topping her up with kitten replacement? I would be doing that as she still seems quite small and mum doesnt seem overly keen on feeding so she may not be getting enough from mum. How much did she weigh when she was born? 108g at 6 days is a bit worrying and I would be getting some kitten milk replacement.


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## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Really you want at least 10g a day.
> 
> Are you topping her up with kitten replacement? I would be doing that as she still seems quite small and mum doesnt seem overly keen on feeding so she may not be getting enough from mum. How much did she weigh when she was born? 108g at 6 days is a bit worrying and I would be getting some kitten milk replacement.


Yes i've been giving her what the vet gave me in a little syringe with a tiny rubber bit on the end inbetween her mum feeding her, or when she doesnt. I have to admit i dont like doing it i really am scared of choking her but I give her 1ml at a time every 2 hours IF mum hasnt fed her. :huh: I have no idea what she weighed when she was born, the whole labour went on for so long and then the next day at the vets i just hadnt got out after that or dare leave her to get some scales


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## gloworm*mushroom

I would say a GOOD average birth weigh is around 100g (most are born a bit more than that) and then 10g a day, so honestly I would want her to be about 200g ish at a week old.

Can you get the vet to show you how to syringe feed? I understand the fear of choking her but I really do think she needs this top up, and probably a bit more than shes getting based on her current weight. Hopefully someone a bit more versed in handrearing can help you on the amounts you can top her up with.


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## pippa234

Hi, I was shown and have managed ok to do it, but i say it's just a fear at the back of my mind, I am going off what the vet said to give her and how and when he said to give her, trying as he said 'not to take over or alienate mum completely'.
I may give the vet a ring and see if i can get her up there tomorrow if you really think she doenst weigh enough x


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Hi, I was shown and have managed ok to do it, but i say it's just a fear at the back of my mind, I am going off what the vet said to give her and how and when he said to give her, trying as he said 'not to take over or alienate mum completely'.
> I may give the vet a ring and see if i can get her up there tomorrow if you really think she doenst weigh enough x


Its hard to say without knowing her birth weight, but I am assuming she was more than 60g at birth as 80g would be 'small' and without knowing shes put on 10g a day (and it seeming unlikely) she does seem small.


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## pippa234

Just managed to get hold of my vet who had to check they weighed armani and they did on friday and she/he weighed 78 grams, he said to keep doing what i am as armani is gaining weight which is the most important thing, to up the amount I give armani to hourly if mum hasnt fed her, other than that I had to bare in mind that the other three were stillborn and there could be something genetically wrong, all the other kittens had some 'fluid' on there heads apparently, which i did get told on friday, and he said the fourth was very 'squashed' but i never saw the fourth kitty.


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Just managed to get hold of my vet who had to check they weighed armani and they did on friday and she/he weighed 78 grams, he said to keep doing what i am as armani is gaining weight which is the most important thing, to up the amount I give armani to hourly if mum hasnt fed her, other than that I had to bare in mind that the other three were stillborn and there could be something genetically wrong, all the other kittens had some 'fluid' on there heads apparently, which i did get told on friday, and he said the fourth was very 'squashed' but i never saw the fourth kitty.


 Did your friend know who the father was of her kittens? Was it one of the other cats she rehomed? 3 stillborns does seem quite a lot for one litter, I know it wasnt the most straightforward of births but it seems a high percentage


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## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Did your friend know who the father was of her kittens? Was it one of the other cats she rehomed? 3 stillborns does seem quite a lot for one litter, I know it wasnt the most straightforward of births but it seems a high percentage


Apparently she didn't know she was pregnant when she gave her to me, the vet mentioned that Tinks is probably a five year old cat (how do they know)?!
Haven't been intouch with her since about a month ago now.

Having read up on the things I have since all this has come about I guess it could be a host of reasons, she could have gone over 9 weeks, they could have been early, the stress of what she's been through or just gentically not a cat that can have kittens, I'm not going over and over too much in my mind, it was devestating the 3rd kitty being stillborn after the first and then the joy with armani being ok, I cried, really cried, and that's when I knew I couldn't let her go through it again without help and got her to the vets who had been on the phone to me through the night at 6 am, they had to x-ray to see where the other kitten/s were and open early to do that for me/her.

It seemed forever waiting to know if the x-ray meant she needed a c section or the kitten was able to be delivered naturally, and when they came and told me the kitten was very far back but they could give her an injection it was easily half an hour before they told me kitty was stillborn.

Like i said earlier, it was in a horrible way reassuiring to have the experts there to say there was something wrong with the kittens, and not anything I did, because up until then believe me, I blamed myself so much.

Sorry for that little blurt of everything, but this has really been stressful and i really am doing my best for tinks and armani.


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## gloworm*mushroom

Make sure you weigh her at the same time each day (to account for poos and meal etc) and she should keep gaining, the more the better. 

I remember you saying her age didnt tie in with that your friend said. I dont know how vets age cats, I assume they look at teeth? Its a total minefield and I hope Armani keeps thriving but she really must gain weight everyday. If she doesnt then I would get her to the vets. I'm not surprised poor mum is not bothered with her after everything she has been through


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## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Make sure you weigh her at the same time each day (to account for poos and meal etc) and she should keep gaining, the more the better.
> 
> I remember you saying her age didnt tie in with that your friend said. I dont know how vets age cats, I assume they look at teeth? Its a total minefield and I hope Armani keeps thriving but she really must gain weight everyday. If she doesnt then I would get her to the vets. I'm not surprised poor mum is not bothered with her after everything she has been through


I will and thank you, I have said i will take her/them tomorrow anyway, the vet said she is gaining weight if she is 108 now, so I can only keep doing what I've been told and that is what I will do. x

Mum is bothered, just not much, at least she hasn't totally rejected Armani, the vet seems to think the less i interfere the more the bond will come,so as you can see i'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!x


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## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> I will and thank you, I have said i will take her/them tomorrow anyway, the vet said she is gaining weight if she is 108 now, so I can only keep doing what I've been told and that is what I will do. x
> 
> *Mum is bothered, just not much, at least she hasn't totally rejected Armani, the vet seems to think the less i interfere the more the bond will come,so as you can see i'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!x*


In a way I agree but, if she isnt getting enough from mum she really does need the 'interference' in a way. Yes it may harm the bond but, she really does need to be packing on a little bit more weight than she is. 78g is a low birth weight to start, and 30g in 6 days is very low gain


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## Aurelia

Hi Pippa.

I haven't read the whole thread just this last page which I think I'm glad about. It sounds like you've all been through the mill big time  So sorry to hear you lost some of the kittens.

Hun, barely a 5g a day gain is really poor  You must now weigh Armani every single day, in fact I think every 12 hours from now. I have an awful feeling that he might of gained to begin with, but might now be losing. What makes me think this is how you describe the mum cat dealing with her kitten now.

What brand milk has the vet given you? The best one out there is Cimicat I believe. I understand you feel between a rock and a hard place but if it does turn out he is losing weight now you might have to completely take over. He might even need tube feeding to have a chance now. So please keep that vet appointment tomorrow, and ask if it would give him a better chance if you try tube feeding, they might show you how or it might be better for him (and possibly take mum too) to be cared for at the vets by the vets nurses who've had practice with doing it.

 From what you said about the other kittens having fluid around their skulls and one sounding deformed ... I would prepare yourself for the worst hun.

I'll keep everything crossed that he pulls through and turns a corner. I'll be willing him to thrive. xx


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## Lumboo

What a tough ride this has been. Poor Tinks and Armani; both sound like little fighters though so I am sure everything will be OK in the end.

Pippa do you have anyone to help you in this - apart from the Vet? You must be under a lot of stress but I just wanted to say I think you are doing fantastically well. You never even signed up for this, and are left battling emotionally due to someone else's neglect. That must make things even harder.

The main thing that really shows in your posts is how much you care and will continue to care for both of them. I hope Armani (great name!) gains weight steadily. It reminds me of my son, who lost 20% of his birth weight and everyone got worried. However, once he started bulking up there was no stopping him and he was called "Guzzleguts" at 5 months old.

I hope Armani follows the same pattern of steady weight gain and then a massive surge that puts him/her completely back on track!

Keep us updated. x

PS. Is your "friend" going to assist you in any of the Vets fees?


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## pippa234

Lumboo said:


> What a tough ride this has been. Poor Tinks and Armani; both sound like little fighters though so I am sure everything will be OK in the end.
> 
> Pippa do you have anyone to help you in this - apart from the Vet? You must be under a lot of stress but I just wanted to say I think you are doing fantastically well. You never even signed up for this, and are left battling emotionally due to someone else's neglect. That must make things even harder.
> 
> The main thing that really shows in your posts is how much you care and will continue to care for both of them. I hope Armani (great name!) gains weight steadily. It reminds me of my son, who lost 20% of his birth weight and everyone got worried. However, once he started bulking up there was no stopping him and he was called "Guzzleguts" at 5 months old.
> 
> I hope Armani follows the same pattern of steady weight gain and then a massive surge that puts him/her completely back on track!
> 
> Keep us updated. x
> 
> PS. Is your "friend" going to assist you in any of the Vets fees?


Thankyou so so much for such a supportive and positive post, no my friend has nothing to do with me she went off with a guy she had been having an affair with, left her hubby and 3 kids and 3 cats, asked me to 'look after' tinks for a while asked me if id have the other two but i said i couldnt take on anymore as they had to be kept together.
No help financially and it's been ridiculous the amount i've spent but I just have, because you do, don't you? I actually used my rent money, but I will deal with that at the end of the month, like you do.

Tinks is amazing and she has really adopted me to be honest, my other two are so patient and just adorable to have accepted her and now Armani, and thank you for the compliment about the name, I'm not sure why it popped into my head, but in lots of ways it suits her/him, it's exclusive, designer, classy, and wanted.. I can't tell you how very very scared i am of losing her, I AM doing my best, honestly. x


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## Lumboo

pippa234 said:


> Thankyou so so much for such a supportive and positive post, no my friend has nothing to do with me she went off with a guy she had been having an affair with, left her hubby and 3 kids and 3 cats, asked me to 'look after' tinks for a while asked me if id have the other two but i said i couldnt take on anymore as they had to be kept together.
> No help financially and it's been ridiculous the amount i've spent but I just have, because you do, don't you? I actually used my rent money, but I will deal with that at the end of the month, like you do.
> 
> Tinks is amazing and she has really adopted me to be honest, my other two are so patient and just adorable to have accepted her and now Armani, and thank you for the compliment about the name, I'm not sure why it popped into my head, but in lots of ways it suits her/him, it's exclusive, designer, classy, and wanted.. I can't tell you how very very scared i am of losing her, I AM doing my best, honestly. x


Aw Sweetie, I don't think anyone reading your posts would think you were not doing your best. Even the most experienced breeder cannot reverse what nature intends. I was glad that your vet was able to reassure you that the kittens died due to natural causes, and most likely in the womb, rather than anything you did/didn't do, although obviously I was very sad to hear that 3 of them didn't make it.

Do you think perhaps Tinks is not responsive to Armani as she senses something is wrong with her/him? Not sure if cats act this way but just a thought.

How have they been this evening? Any progress in regards to feeding? Have you weighed Armani again? Hope you are able to get some rest this evening. Your vet sounds really supportive too, which is a great help.

Try not to worry. I understand how scared you must be feeling being in charge of such a little, but very much loved kitten. You are doing all the right things, and that is as much as you can do right now.

Oh, and when you take them to the vets tomorrow can you try and find out if Armani is a boy or a girl. It is a cool name as it suits either gender, but it would be nice not to have to keep saying him/her. 

Sending positive hugs your way x


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## pippa234

Just spent ages watching Tinks and Armani, and thought maybe i should cut Tinks fur, Armani struggles to find a teat on Tinks her fur is so long, so have just cut all her fur round 6 of her teats, Armani was purring and feeding and Tinks was purring, I was very gentle and hopefully this will make things a little less difficult for Armani now. Just gave her a feed myself and she was very hungry so actually gave her 2ml. She wanted more but put her back on mum and have left them together for a little while.


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## gloworm*mushroom

Cats can reject those they feel are 'not well' but they can reject for many may reasons and her labour does seem to be very traumatic, I think id be a bit miffed after that too!

Definitely weigh every 12 hours as Aurelia suggested to make sure there are consistent gains, as I didnt even THINK about that Armani may have gained and lost  This is why daily weigh ins are of paramount importance, you really need to make sure these young uns keep putting the weight on. Hopefully she is gaining, and the gains can be increased to more in line with healthy gains.

If she stays the same tomorrow, or loses weight, she really needs to go back to the vets for a new 'plan of action'


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## pippa234

Lumboo said:


> Aw Sweetie, I don't think anyone reading your posts would think you were not doing your best. Even the most experienced breeder cannot reverse what nature intends. I was glad that your vet was able to reassure you that the kittens died due to natural causes, and most likely in the womb, rather than anything you did/didn't do, although obviously I was very sad to hear that 3 of them didn't make it.
> 
> Do you think perhaps Tinks is not responsive to Armani as she senses something is wrong with her/him? Not sure if cats act this way but just a thought.
> 
> How have they been this evening? Any progress in regards to feeding? Have you weighed Armani again? Hope you are able to get some rest this evening. Your vet sounds really supportive too, which is a great help.
> 
> Try not to worry. I understand how scared you must be feeling being in charge of such a little, but very much loved kitten. You are doing all the right things, and that is as much as you can do right now.
> 
> Oh, and when you take them to the vets tomorrow can you try and find out if Armani is a boy or a girl. It is a cool name as it suits either gender, but it would be nice not to have to keep saying him/her.
> 
> Sending positive hugs your way x


Love your caring and supportive posts, thankyou so much. Armani was a sexless name I chose, for all the reasons I said and that included! I did have names for all of them, but seems sad to say them now, but they were all very sweet and sexless cute names. x I'm soppy like that :huh:
I'm pretty sure she is a he to be honest, but yes will ask tomorrow ;-)


----------



## pippa234

Aurelia said:


> Hi Pippa.
> 
> I haven't read the whole thread just this last page which I think I'm glad about. It sounds like you've all been through the mill big time  So sorry to hear you lost some of the kittens.
> 
> Hun, barely a 5g a day gain is really poor  You must now weigh Armani every single day, in fact I think every 12 hours from now. I have an awful feeling that he might of gained to begin with, but might now be losing. What makes me think this is how you describe the mum cat dealing with her kitten now.
> 
> What brand milk has the vet given you? The best one out there is Cimicat I believe. I understand you feel between a rock and a hard place but if it does turn out he is losing weight now you might have to completely take over. He might even need tube feeding to have a chance now. So please keep that vet appointment tomorrow, and ask if it would give him a better chance if you try tube feeding, they might show you how or it might be better for him (and possibly take mum too) to be cared for at the vets by the vets nurses who've had practice with doing it.
> 
> From what you said about the other kittens having fluid around their skulls and one sounding deformed ... I would prepare yourself for the worst hun.
> 
> I'll keep everything crossed that he pulls through and turns a corner. I'll be willing him to thrive. xx


Missed your post hun, you seem with me on this, thank you, the milk i have is 'beaphar' kitty milk, which is 6 of the flat teaspons it came with to 50ml of water, I was told 1ml via syringe evry 2 hours if mum hadnt fed but now been upped to every hour, Armani seems fine, active, vocal, purring, (amazing to hear and brought my smile back)! but tiny tiny tiny :-( As said just now i cut all tinks fur round her 6 nipples, the top two has short hair there, it may help? I don't know, but believe me, I am not giving up x


----------



## Aurelia

Have you now weighed Armani? Write the weight down and check again in 12 hours hun.


----------



## pippa234

Aurelia said:


> Have you now weighed Armani? Write the weight down and check again in 12 hours hun.


No I daren't disturb Armani as was suckling on mum, mum left her and i gave her 2ml's and she guzzled, then went back when i got tinks and put her in her box, eventually she decided on the lil one teat she likes after sniffing around them all, bottom two on tinks are very very hot and Armani wont go near them so another thing for tomorrow :-(
8 to choose from and only seems one she likes but almost under mums arm so not the easy one and doesn't seem to have any fullness to it??


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Honestly I would weigh her really quick once she is done feeding them put her back with mum.


----------



## Aurelia

Oh dear. Hun if she has mastitis brewing ... Please call your out of hours vet for advice. SHe's not gaining enough already or has possibly lost some. Mastitis will only make things worse for both. The little one really really needs weighing. The best way is to bring the scales to the kittening box and put it down level with mum, they quickly weigh the kitten and place her/him back. It takes just a few seconds. and provided you do it near mum she shouldn't mind, so long as she can see baby the whole time and they are close.

You need to know if the little one is losing weight, they go down hill so quickly hun. I can't stress that enough.


----------



## pippa234

Aurelia said:


> Oh dear. Hun if she has mastitis brewing ... Please call your out of hours vet for advice. SHe's not gaining enough already or has possibly lost some. Mastitis will only make things worse for both. The little one really really needs weighing. The best way is to bring the scales to the kittening box and put it down level with mum, they quickly weigh the kitten and place her/him back. It takes just a few seconds. and provided you do it near mum she shouldn't mind, so long as she can see baby the whole time and they are close.
> 
> You need to know if the little one is losing weight, they go down hill so quickly hun. I can't stress that enough.


ok give me a min x


----------



## pippa234

Not much but 113g x


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Not much but 113g x


Up is the right direction, what time was she weighed at 108g?


----------



## pippa234

Mum wasn't in the box, I'm shattered to be honest xx will keep feeding Armani through the night x


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Up is the right direction, what time was she weighed at 108g?


no i weighed her and posted at whatever time it was you said, dont ask me i have no idea of time at the mo! the vet weighed her friday, but he told me the weight when i rang earlier x


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> no i weighed her and posted at whatever time it was you said, dont ask me i have no idea of time at the mo! the vet weighed her friday, but he told me the weight when i rang earlier x


So she was weighed at 108g at around 5pm, and now she is 113g?


----------



## Aurelia

Aye, but she/he had just been fed. Are you toileting the little one Pippa? Or is mum?

Did you call the vet hun? Cause if she is developing Mastitis the quicker it's treated he better (and cheaper).


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Aurelia said:


> Aye, but she/he had just been fed. Are you toileting the little one Pippa? Or is mum?
> 
> Did you call the vet hun? Cause if she is developing Mastitis the quicker it's treated he better (and cheaper).


Cos I know naff all Aurelia, what are the signs of mastitis?


----------



## Aurelia

Well Pippa mentioned her back nips felt hot  That could be the start of it and it's the last thing both of them need  There might possibly be a chance of stopping it developing further if it's acted on quickly. I'm not 100% sure on that though which is why I suggest calling the vet (which should be free to do btw Pippa).


----------



## honeysmummy

Hi hun,

It's great that you are getting quick advice on the feeding by Aurelia and GM
I am willing with all my heart that Armani gets stronger and stronger by the hour. You are doing all that is humanely possible but it's ok to let the vet take over if they have to. You must be exhausted, but you are giving them 100% love and care. Hope you have someone popping around to keep your chin up

Will log on in the morning to see how you are all doing

Keep fighting little one

Kelly xx


----------



## pippa234

Thanks all, going to log off now, am knackered and so is my hitting the correct keys, tinks had a bit of a paddy when i got into bed, the box is beside me and she decided she wanted to get IN THE BED  and started nesting almost is only the way I can describe it, i 'spoke' to her and reassured her and put her back with Armani, she was wagging her tail and jumped back out, i persisted and she has settled with her now, another long night for me I guess. xx night all xx


----------



## pippa234

Aurelia said:


> Aye, but she/he had just been fed. Are you toileting the little one Pippa? Or is mum?
> 
> Did you call the vet hun? Cause if she is developing Mastitis the quicker it's treated he better (and cheaper).


Missed this post, sorry, mum is toileting now after Alison told me i needed to do it, i started and then found a way for mum to take over by putting armani in her tail when she was grooming herself, so from then she has been doing it, however only when i lift armani and literally offer her to her now, she has no instinct to do it


----------



## Aurelia

She's actually licking her bottom to stimulate her? Just checking because I thought what you put earlier was describing her cleaning her in general, not her actual bottom if that makes sense.

Did you call the vets? Honestly it should be free and they are usually up already ...


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> So she was weighed at 108g at around 5pm, and now she is 113g?


Last post before sleeps, yes, i think that must be correct, sorry, im just so tired xx


----------



## pippa234

Aurelia said:


> She's actually licking her bottom to stimulate her? Just checking because I thought what you put earlier was describing her cleaning her in general, not her actual bottom if that makes sense.
> 
> Did you call the vets? Honestly it should be free and they are usually up already ...


Argh im so tired, lol, yes, armani actually did a poo and has wee weed a good few times in my palm while tinks has licked to get her to do it..
Yes called the vets earlier and going tomorrow and doubt its free :-( as just a visit is £26 hmy: without any thing else :crying: my bill so far is over £200 :crying:


----------



## Aurelia

Most vets do not charge for a phone call hun, in fact I don't think I have ever heard of one charging you for ringing their emergency line. Taking them in after yes, but not for the actual call.

I'm sorry it's becoming so expensive, but it's unavoidable hun


----------



## Misi

Am I the only one who wells up reading Pippa's posts? Pippa, you must be beyond exhausted, yet you battle on. Everyone is willing little Armani on and hoping mum will come around a bit more. I hope you can have a chat to the vet today to make sure all's going in the right direction. You're amazing Pippa. Big hugs from us all here


----------



## MoggyBaby

Hey Pippa, just another post of support for you to keep you going. You are doing SO well and it must be so difficult. Good luck at the vets today and let us know how it goes.

We are all here for you whenever you need us - even if it just to let out a big scream........... 

Big (((((((HUGS))))))) to all three of you.


----------



## Dally Banjo

Heaps & heaps of positive vibes from us to  x


----------



## Jenny1966

Cant help with any practical advice, but wanted you to know I think you are doing a fantastic job ...... way beyond what a lot of people would do 


Me and Molly will keep everything crossed for little Armani, and a (((big hug))) for you xx


----------



## MoggyBaby

Hi Pippa, just had a wee thought (it's all my brain can handle at any one time....) - can you say where you are located. Not exact details but a rough area guide. I'm just thinking that there might be some PF member(s) not too far away who could give you some help and ease a bit of the pressure on you. From your posts, it sounds like you are having to cope with all of this on your own...... 

If you're anywhere near me, I'll be happy to pop round and help out - if only to keep an eye on mum & baby whilst you get some sleep for an hour or two....


----------



## Misi

MoggyBaby said:


> Hi Pippa, just had a wee thought (it's all my brain can handle at any one time....) - can you say where you are located. Not exact details but a rough area guide. I'm just thinking that there might be some PF member(s) not too far away who could give you some help and ease a bit of the pressure on you. From your posts, it sounds like you are having to cope with all of this on your own......
> 
> If you're anywhere near me, I'll be happy to pop round and help out - if only to keep an eye on mum & baby whilst you get some sleep for an hour or two....


I was wondering the same thing. Obviously, being in Italy, that puts me out of the picture, sadly, but there must be someone who can help out.


----------



## alisondalziel

Hi Pippa,

Hope you got some sleep last night.

It may seem awful just now but if and when Armani grows up it will all be over and you can congratulate yourself on the amazing job you have done.

I would use Cimicat milk, i found it great stuff.

I personally wouldn't overly worry about the mother/baby bond. The life of a kitten is at stake and you must do what you need to do to preserve life. The mother & baby bond is a bonus i feel at this critical stage. You can try to hand feed beside mum, and encourage them to be together etc, but you cannot force what nature intends. 

Something else i love are nutri-drops. I used them for my last litter and found them a useful source of energy.

Looking forward to hearing what happened at the vets, good luck love x


----------



## pippa234

Mum and Armani (a he) are fine, vet just took a quick look at both of them and weighed Armani and he is gaining so that's good. I was so tired last night so sorry about my posts x


----------



## pippa234

Ok I know it's still not ideal but Armani weighs in at 122g now, im not sure i did it correctly last night and weighed with some tissue underneath and didn't minus the weight of that, anyway, feeding off mum and the bottle i got today nicely and being quite active too, he has quite strong legs and scrambles about quite quickly and quite a loud meow!! will try and get some nutri drops and the other milk tomorrow if I can. Thank you for the kind posts and thank you Alison for the tips x


----------



## Aurelia

pippa234 said:


> Mum and Armani (a he) are fine, vet just took a quick look at both of them and weighed Armani and he is gaining so that's good. I was so tired last night so sorry about my posts x


That's great news! Did he check her nipples and what not?

Lets hope he begins to thrive now, and becomes nice little rolly polly


----------



## pippa234

Aurelia said:


> That's great news! Did he check her nipples and what not?
> 
> Lets hope he begins to thrive now, and becomes nice little rolly polly


Yes nipples checked etc, no mastitis thankfully x

Have re-aranged the sleeping as Tinks leaves Armani so much and gets on my bed, so got a spare quilt and made a mini bed (folded it in four) on the floor with pillows around it to enclose it, it seems to have encouraged her to lay with Armani more today, mum definitely is lazy!!


----------



## catlove844

your girl has very long hair can you shave it? kitten sometimes cant find it through thur hair and suckle hair which can make them ill and it gets all matted, any gain is good, but you may have to top up, if she only has one kitten, then milk may not come out alot x how much is he gaining now? is mum on a good diet? x


----------



## pippa234

pippa234 said:


> Ok I know it's still not ideal but Armani weighs in at 122g now, im not sure i did it correctly last night and weighed with some tissue underneath and didn't minus the weight of that, anyway, feeding off mum and the bottle i got today nicely and being quite active too, he has quite strong legs and scrambles about quite quickly and quite a loud meow!! will try and get some nutri drops and the other milk tomorrow if I can. Thank you for the kind posts and thank you Alison for the tips x





pippa234 said:


> Just spent ages watching Tinks and Armani, and thought maybe i should cut Tinks fur, Armani struggles to find a teat on Tinks her fur is so long, so have just cut all her fur round 6 of her teats, Armani was purring and feeding and Tinks was purring, I was very gentle and hopefully this will make things a little less difficult for Armani now. Just gave her a feed myself and she was very hungry so actually gave her 2ml. She wanted more but put her back on mum and have left them together for a little while.





catlove844 said:


> your girl has very long hair can you shave it? kitten sometimes cant find it through thur hair and suckle hair which can make them ill and it gets all matted, any gain is good, but you may have to top up, if she only has one kitten, then milk may not come out alot x how much is he gaining now? is mum on a good diet? x


Yes mum has a good diet, the other things you mention have already been discussed


----------



## Lumboo

I am SO pleased that everything is going back on track. Slow steps but really positive news. Glad your Vet has given reassurance about the mastitis too (almost had it myself when I had my son, not nice!)

Why do I get the feeling Armani will end up being a little indulgent fatty, probably in a designer collar and bedding? (next month's rent?) :wink:

How are you feeling now? Did you get any proper sleep?

Keep us posted about how he is doing (so nice knowing he/she is a definite "he")
Tinks sounds like she was just exhausted by labour. Did the Vet say Armani is checking out OK as well, or is that still too early to tell. 

Huge hugs to you, surrogate human mummy Xx


----------



## mamf

I have just seen thus thread OP you're a star! My heart has been in my throat reading this, you have all our positive vibes from norwich! (we're a beefy lot in this house too so they're big vibes  ) 

You have done a wonderful thing and i hope lil armani continues to grow..X


----------



## pippa234

Armani and Mum are doing much better together it seems since i moved out of the box onto their make shift bed, feeds went really well last night and Mum stayed with Armani for quite a long time last night  
Weighed in this morning at about 9am at 139g which I had to keep doing because I couldn't believe it! (scales went to 141- tissue weighs 2 g and when i saw the 4 i nearly had kittens myself lol)


----------



## lizward

This is sounding much better, well done you!

Liz


----------



## MoggyBaby

*WELL DONE TINKS, ARMANI AND PIPPA!!!!!!! *

139g???? Way to go Armani. :thumbup:

It is great to start hearing this good news - you must also be feeling so relieved. And how wonderful that Tinks is now starting to get the gist of what she needs to do. Maybe her terrible experience just took it out of her more than we have all given her credit for and it has taken her this time to get over it. 

I am so delighted to read that your new little family is doing so well after such a difficult start.


----------



## alisondalziel

Todays piccies!!

He is a gorgeous kitten, i personally can't wait to see him with his eyes open


----------



## MooKatMoon

Hi Pippa,
i have just read all the way through this thread, what a fantastic job you have done and are doing.

well done you, reading this has bought a tear to my eye and a smile to my face.

i hope all is well with tinks and Armani.

i send you hugs and love.


----------



## pippa234

alisondalziel said:


> Todays piccies!!
> 
> He is a gorgeous kitten, i personally can't wait to see him with his eyes open


Thank you Alison, it is so kind of you to post the piccies for me 

He is adorable isn't he 

I honestly seriously can't imagine ever parting with him or letting Mum part with him


----------



## alisondalziel

I think in a case like this i would defo keep the little one.


----------



## honeysmummy

Hi hun, sorry work has been manic the last few days..just logged on in work.
So happy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Armani and Tinks and you, have captured our hearts and i am over the moon that little one is getting stonger by the day.

You must be exhausted but very proud....i know armani has a long way to go but it seems like your baby is heading in the right direction 

I think you were meant to have Tinks !!! She now has someone who will look after her and give her the love she deserves.

Would be handy if some PF members could pop by.

Keeping everything crossed for all three of you

Lots of love and hugs

Kelly xxx


----------



## welshjet

Hiya, that pic of armarni on the scales id fab and fingers and paws crossed hes going the right way. Well done Tinks and definately well done you. You should be ever so proud of yourself, we are

Clare x


----------



## welshjet

Hiya, that pic of armarni on the scales id fab and fingers and paws crossed hes going the right way. Well done Tinks and definately well done you. You should be ever so proud of yourself, - i am x

Clare x


----------



## MoggyBaby

welshjet said:


> Hiya, that pic of armarni on the scales id fab and fingers and paws crossed hes going the right way. Well done Tinks and definately well done you. You should be ever so proud of yourself, we are
> 
> Clare x





welshjet said:


> Hiya, that pic of armarni on the scales id fab and fingers and paws crossed hes going the right way. Well done Tinks and definately well done you. You should be ever so proud of yourself, - i am x
> 
> Clare x


Ok, now either Welshjet is drunk or I am!!!! I am _DEFINITELY_ seeing double here so which is it??????


----------



## pippa234

MoggyBaby said:


> Ok, now either Welshjet is drunk or I am!!!! I am _DEFINITELY_ seeing double here so which is it??????


Lol, I'm quite pleased with the double post, makes me feel with all my lack of sleep all my terrible spelling and mixed up words I've been posting are catching on hehe  

Armani and Mum have been great all day, the new bed and getting him onto the two teats that were full of milk seems to have been what they needed, Mums been with Armani all day, cleaning, sleeping, feeding and even waking him up to clean and feed him. 
What a difference a day makes


----------



## mamf

this thread is the best thread..  so glad Tink is feeling better too x


----------



## missye87

MoggyBaby said:


> Ok, now either Welshjet is drunk or I am!!!! I am _DEFINITELY_ seeing double here so which is it??????


Well wouldn't put it past you eh :smilewinkgrin:


----------



## pippa234

Well I have just weighed Armani again, can this be for real? He seems to have got the hang of Mum now and I think that maybe I can stop supplementing her now, but seriously I have just weighed him in at 153g !! hmy:

Now please tell me this is ok?? 

Mum is getting really fanatic about getting him to wee and poo now, she seems to have kicked in her maternal instincts so much so that I'm actually able to come downstairs and leave them today and just go up to check on them and she is staying with him!!

It just seems too good to be true!!


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Up is better. Do weigh him at the same time everyday though to account for fluctuations in feeding/pooing etc. What was he at 7.30 yesterday?

Dont stop supplementing in my opinion until he catches up, as yes he is doing well now but he is still very underweight for his age  But he seems to be doing fab.


----------



## pippa234

I'm weighing him now roughly 12 hourly, I weighed him at about 9 this morning so will try again at 9 tonight, yesterday it was about 5 pm I think??! I actually will start writing it down, I've really just been posting on here as my diary though, I've been so sleep deprived nothing is getting done properly apart from tending to the cats and kitten 

Anyone good at ironing?? :huh:

Ok, it was about 8pm yesterday he weighed 122g


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

He seems to be doing pretty well. Hopefully he can keep it up. Dont be alarmed at too big a rises, 10g is like the minimum you want really, so anything above is good


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> He seems to be doing pretty well. Hopefully he can keep it up. Dont be alarmed at too big a rises, 10g is like the minimum you want really, so anything above is good


Ok great, thank you, I had a mini panic that he was putting on too much! But I guess with me supplementing and upping it the last 24 ++ hours has made the difference along with Mum tending to him more as well. x

Honestly, I don't know what I would have done or how I would have coped without everyones support on here, so so *grateful to you all*. THANKYOU!!

Isn't it strange though that people that dont have cats/pets just don't 'get' how much 'we care' and almost seem to have rolled their eyes at me taking time off work, cancelling dates, cancelling dentist appointments all 'because of a kitten' :smilewinkgrin:


----------



## pippa234

Armani weighed in this morning at ... 168g!!!!

Tinks stayed with him all through the night and there is definitely a massive improvement from her now, it's lovely


----------



## Dally Banjo

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: Brilliant news  x


----------



## Lumboo

Woo Hoo - Go Armani!

Well done Tinks and Pippa - keep up the fantastic work.

Ah, if I had a penny for each time I had had people roll their eyes at comments about kids or kits I would be a millionaire. Nope, you are right, no one understands the stress nor the immense pride you get at watching someone you have nurtured flourish before your eyes.

Don't worry though - we understand and we share your joy


----------



## MooKatMoon

Pippa what a fantastic job you have done.


well done you Tinks and Armani.


nice to hear they are all doing so well.


----------



## pippa234

Just done a 9pm weigh in and 182g so hopefully he really is on the up 

I even managed to nip out for an hour earlier for a quick drink with my toy boy I stood up when Tinks was stressed pre-labour lol and I was glad to know he has a heart too and understood


----------



## MoggyBaby

What great updates Pippa!!! It sounds as though everything has come together and all your hard work is now reaping the rewards - A happy mommy and a satisfied kitten..... The best reward a person can have!!!!!

To repeat my previous posts - *WELL DONE YOU* for sticking with it and getting this great result. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## harrys_mum

so pleased for the little one, please keep photos coming.
michellex


----------



## pippa234

harrys_mum said:


> so pleased for the little one, please keep photos coming.
> michellex


I will do, I'm reliant on Alison at the mo as I dont have a lead to transfer them from my phone, so trying my best not to put her out too much 

Weigh in at 9am 191g 
Armani is getting very adventurous and Mum has to reign him in, now he has a little more space he is all over their bed and it's quite funny watching him and mum meowing at him


----------



## alisondalziel

Not at all hun, i don't mind one bit 

I'm always happy to see the photos, they're gorgeous and i'm happy to be part of this wonderful story.


----------



## pippa234

alisondalziel said:


> Not at all hun, i don't mind one bit
> 
> I'm always happy to see the photos, they're gorgeous and i'm happy to be part of this wonderful story.


You've been amazing Ali thankyou so much will send you some tomorrow xxx

Shame on me i sneaked out tonight with my fella and had a few drinks  sorry but just felt it was time i did, and guess what.. Armani has one eye open when I came back!!! love my baby cant believe I missed it but mum has taken over now and it's time for me to relax.. a little anyway  
Canrt wait for the weigh in tomorrow morning  xx


----------



## pippa234

Armani weighed in at 205g  this morning, the second eye is opening now  
and he is looking very cute!


----------



## missye87

pippa234 said:


> Armani weighed in at 205g  this morning, the second eye is opening now
> and he is looking very cute!


Picture proof please


----------



## pippa234

missye87 said:


> Picture proof please


Haha, I've sent a couple to Alison so I'm sure when she has time she will post them up for me  x


----------



## alisondalziel

Here we are!!

He is so sweet an already looks bigger, great news


----------



## missye87

Gosh I'm supposed to be at work but I'm left at my desk dribbling over cute babycat pics!  He is such an adorable little boy :001_tt1:


----------



## MoggyBaby

Oh my goodness!!!! What a gorgeous, gorgeous little smunchkin!!!! :001_tt1: :001_tt1:

How is it _POSSIBLE_ that he can be even more cute and yummy than he was last week????????

I applaud you Pippa on being able to give him to his mummy sometimes coz I would just want to snuggle him 24/7!!!!!

He is ADORABLE!!!!!! :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:


----------



## harrys_mum

oh my, what a little sweetheart.
can we have updated pics every week,
makes my day,
michelle x


----------



## pippa234

Ok I've got a lead now to transfer pictures.. but how do I post them? lol even brunettes have blonde moments!!


----------



## Lumboo

Well, he certainly looks designer quality to me  - what an adorable little ball of fluff.

Oh Pippa, you must feel a swell of pride every time you see the scales going up or Tinks acting Mumsy. What a roller-coaster couple of weeks for you, but the results are SO worth it.

I was also pleased to hear that your Toyboy was so understanding about the cancelled date. A big PF round of applause in is order for a non-member to actually "get" the reasons for your concern/attention :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Misi

He's totally adorable :001_tt1:


----------



## pippa234

Some more pics


----------



## Dally Banjo

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww:001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub: he's one special little paws


----------



## Jenny1966

:001_wub: awwww what a little sweetheart. He is absolutely adorable!!!


----------



## pippa234

Thankyou!!  He is just too cute for words! 

9pm weigh in, still going well 218g!!!


----------



## Lumboo

Bloody cute photos, (so jealous) and well done for being able to upload them yourself


----------



## pippa234

Lumboo said:


> Bloody cute photos, (so jealous) and well done for being able to upload them yourself


Oh my! Please don't be jealous, Armani wouldn't be here I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for the help of all the PF members that rallied round with advice for me. xx Armani is here because of PF, and I will share him with you all as often as I can x

The financial loss has drained me to be honest, I'm on unpaid leave this week, but, que ce ra, and yes, I had a clever moment and figured out the upload..even if it did take me HOURS!!!! lol


----------



## missye87

Yay for the fantastic weight gains! And super yay for the pictures of the cutest little chubby sausage!


----------



## Lumboo

pippa234 said:


> Oh my! Please don't be jealous, Armani wouldn't be here I'm pretty sure if it wasn't for the help of all the PF members that rallied round with advice for me. xx Armani is here because of PF, and I will share him with you all as often as I can x
> 
> The financial loss has drained me to be honest, I'm on unpaid leave this week, but, que ce ra, and yes, I had a clever moment and figured out the upload..even if it did take me HOURS!!!! lol


Well now you know how to do it there is no excuse not to show us Armani growing...and Tinks of course.

I can well imagine how much this has cost you with all the vet call outs, not to mention unpaid leave. I really wish I was in a position to help, as I think you have taken this responsibility brilliantly x

Incidentally I think your whole thread should be marked as a warning for anyone who thinks allowing their Queen to 'have one litter before spaying' is OK to do, as it is cute/nature's way'. People should understand that this is the emotional, financial and time burden they should prepare themselves for if things go wrong. Sometimes I just don't think people get it.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

You really are a fabulous example of someone who has given up everything necessary to ensure the safety of your cat and kitten, time, finance, etc.

So many people would not do half of what you have done, with their own cat they deliberately bred!


----------



## Misi

Lumboo said:


> Well now you know how to do it there is no excuse not to show us Armani growing...and Tinks of course.
> 
> I can well imagine how much this has cost you with all the vet call outs, not to mention unpaid leave. I really wish I was in a position to help, as I think you have taken this responsibility brilliantly x
> 
> Incidentally I think your whole thread should be marked as a warning for anyone who thinks allowing their Queen to 'have one litter before spaying' is OK to do, as it is cute/nature's way'. People should understand that this is the emotional, financial and time burden they should prepare themselves for if things go wrong. Sometimes I just don't think people get it.


My thoughts exactly, the other day


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

Wow have just read this whole post from start to finish for the first time. What a rollercoaster you have been on. I am so glad Armarni is gaining weight now and Tinks is being maternal!! 

It has taken me almost 2 hours to read the whole thread (what with breaking up too rough play fights with my 12 week old kitten and three 6 week old foster kittens and letting my dog in and out of garden) and I almost couldnt read any more but can I just say a massive WELL DONE to you pippa but also all the other PF members who helped out!!

I will just say that in my experience of handrearing kittens they all tend to go off food for a day or so here and there esp around 3 weeks of age when they begin to teethe and so if he on one day doesnt gain as much weight or stays pretty much the same not to be too worried as long as he starts gaining the next day and not loosing!

It sounds like you are going to have a lovely kitten reaking havoc in your house in the coming weeks until he is fully grown so have fun!! I have recently become a failed fosterer and given in to keeping Uggers, one of my hand rears  they do tend to grab hold of your hearts!!!

Good Luck for the coming weeks and I am so very glad this seems to be a happy ending xxxxxxx


----------



## welshjet

He is beautiful and of course mum is xxx


----------



## pippa234

Am worried today  Armani hasn't put any weight on overnight, and he doesn't want to feed much, I was up through the night with him but is squeeling and pulling his head away when i try to syringe feed him  he is going to mum, and she does have milk but not latching on for more than a minute or two, I am trying to get him to take some milk and just dropping it onto his tongue but like i say he is squeeling and shaking his head so much he just isn't hardly getting any. The vets said just try and keep feeding him which of course i am.


----------



## Dally Banjo

Hope its just a blip poor little paws, you've all been through so much, everything still crossed here for him x


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

How old is he now?

if u put your finger in his mouth can u feel his teeth 'budding' if you can it could just be he is uncomfortable with his teeth. I said before that they can often go off food for a day or so when they begin to teethe. Hope he picks up soon xxxxx


----------



## lizward

This does not sound good, I'm afraid - not the failure to put on weight overnight, at this stage that is entirely possible, but the not wanting to suckle is worrying. If he has lost weight tomorrow you are going to need to beg the vet to prescribe antibiotics which will be worth a try. 

Liz


----------



## pippa234

Kittenfostermummy said:


> How old is he now?
> 
> if u put your finger in his mouth can u feel his teeth 'budding' if you can it could just be he is uncomfortable with his teeth. I said before that they can often go off food for a day or so when they begin to teethe. Hope he picks up soon xxxxx


He is 11 days, haven't felt for teeth, but i hope that's all it is 



lizward said:


> This does not sound good, I'm afraid - not the failure to put on weight overnight, at this stage that is entirely possible, but the not wanting to suckle is worrying. If he has lost weight tomorrow you are going to need to beg the vet to prescribe antibiotics which will be worth a try.
> 
> Liz


Ok, will get him there tomorrow if this carries on x


----------



## alisondalziel

Scrummy yummy photos to say the least!!

They are both stunning and i'm so happy this is turning out well for you.

He is going to be gorgeous when he grows up, hope you continue to post and share his growing up 

Edited to add: I hope that this is nothing bad and that he continues to improve and gain weight. You have done so much for him, it would be such a shame to lose him now. Everything crossed for you x


----------



## MoggyBaby

Sorry to hear that the wee fella is not for eating today - I'm just wondering if this might be anything to do with it being hotter today. Don't know your location but here in Staffs it is hot, close and getting muggy. Is your bedroom quite warm or is it cool?

I have never dealt with kittens this young before but could any breeders advise if the hot weather could affect him like this?????


----------



## harrys_mum

he is such an adorable little kitty, lets hope its just a blip the feeding.
michelle x


----------



## pippa234

I'm really feeling uneasy, Armani just seems to be sleeping a lot now, and i dont know if im just paranoid but im sure his breathing is a lot faster than it was. I just feel sick at the thought me and mum may lose him.


----------



## Jenny1966

pippa234 said:


> I'm really feeling uneasy, Armani just seems to be sleeping a lot now, and i dont know if im just paranoid but im sure his breathing is a lot faster than it was. I just feel sick at the thought me and mum may lose him.


You sound really worried, so phone the vet again and explain how worried you are, be insistant on wanting Armani to be looked at. Fingers crossed he is ok xx As Moggybaby said, it could just be that it is sooooo warm today, he really doesn't feel like doing anything.


----------



## Guest

pippa234 said:


> I'm really feeling uneasy, Armani just seems to be sleeping a lot now, and i dont know if im just paranoid but im sure his breathing is a lot faster than it was. I just feel sick at the thought me and mum may lose him.


I'd call the vet again now hun x


----------



## MoggyBaby

pippa234 said:


> I'm really feeling uneasy, Armani just seems to be sleeping a lot now, and i dont know if im just paranoid but im sure his breathing is a lot faster than it was. I just feel sick at the thought me and mum may lose him.


I'm with the others here hun - call the vet!!!!

You've gone through too much to take any risks now.

Good luck.

((((hugs))))


----------



## missye87

Poor babypaws, I hope it is just the heat and that he might be feeling better in the evening when it cools down!


----------



## mamf

Hope armani is doing better, also hope you're holding up ok xx


----------



## celicababe1986

Just through this whole thread! what an emotional read! :crying:

Just want to say op you are a star, and all those who have helped are stars too :w00t:

fingers crossed little armani starts feeding again soon and its nothing serious!


----------



## Jansheff

Sorry to hear he's not doing well at the moment. I really hope he's OK and gets over this soon.


----------



## pippa234

Just got back from the vets, she said he eemed ok and couldn't make up her mind if she should give him antibiotics or not, temperature ok etc etc but going off what i said she said rather than upset his 'guts' with antibiotics at the mo to take him back tomorrow if he is no better.


----------



## harrys_mum

at least the vet can keep your mind at rest, its probably just the heat, i think we are all feeling it. im looking after my sisters kids hamsters, and they are struggling with the heat at the moment. 
good luck,
michelle x


----------



## Jansheff

Glad to hear it seems to be nothing serious. I just can't imagine how scary it must be looking after one that young and small, if they start ailing.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Keep weighing him to ensure that he is maintaining weight/making small gains. If he starts to lose weight that is a worry.


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Keep weighing him to ensure that he is maintaining weight/making small gains. If he starts to lose weight that is a worry.


Still at 218g and just point blank refuses milk, he is squeeling and pulling away it's virtually impossible to get anything down him, I really dont like this at all


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Still at 218g and just point blank refuses milk, he is squeeling and pulling away it's virtually impossible to get anything down him, I really dont like this at all


All you can do is carry on with what you are doing it has worked so far. maybe later today when its a bit cooler he will want to eat something.

Is he not even trying to feed from mum?


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> All you can do is carry on with what you are doing it has worked so far. maybe later today when its a bit cooler he will want to eat something.
> 
> Is he not even trying to feed from mum?


No, he is taking a couple of sucks when i put him on a teat now and then turning away, he is very vocal though and being quite strong in getting away that is why the vet said she was loathed to give him antibiotics if its just a blip.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Dear me, first mum rejecting now kitten rejecting! You are really going through the ringer  Just keep trying with him...


----------



## Guest

Poor little guy  Keep your chin up hun x


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Dear me, first mum rejecting now kitten rejecting! You are really going through the ringer  Just keep trying with him...


Honestly, I'm virtually holding back the tears all the time but they keep rolling down my face, im finding it so hard and its stressing me so much to know what to do for the best, he just doesn't want to know


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

pippa234 said:


> Honestly, I'm virtually holding back the tears all the time but they keep rolling down my face, im finding it so hard and its stressing me so much to know what to do for the best, he just doesn't want to know


Just think he is lucky to find you. Most would have let 'nature take its course' and he wouldnt even be here.

Have you managed to get more time off work?


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Just think he is lucky to find you. Most would have let 'nature take its course' and he wouldnt even be here.
> 
> Have you managed to get more time off work?


Im on unpaid leave this week hun, my rent is due at the weekend and im now £300 short, im trying not to think about it but i suppose it isnt helping with the stress 
To be honest ive just been putting it in the back of my mind, Tinks and Armani have been my priorities. 
The only thing that's stopping me from thinking the worst is that he is so fiesty, and while he has the energy to get like that im hoping that it means he is just having a blip. x


----------



## Jenny1966

My heart really does go out to you, you have done a fantastic job up to now, and I'm sure you will continue to do so! You are probably very tired, it has been a very long few days for you.

I know it's hard but try and stay positive, all the time Armani is so feisty that's surely a good sign 

There is always someone on here to talk too, dont forget that xx


----------



## Lumboo

Just read the updates Pippa - what is our little PF tyke up to now eh? Hasn't he given everyone enough anxiety already?

Just so you know, my cats have been lazing out fully stretched today and didn't wolf their food down at all. Even when I took them into the garden they hardly moved. I think the heat is just wearing them all out.

Hopefully he will make up for his lack of appetite tomorrow and gain double the weight to make up for it.
I am really glad you took him to the vet though (although I think we all know by now, you would do anything for this kitten and his Mum) I do think the Vet is right thoguh, as it sounds like a blip, and AB's would upset his balance more unless it was really required.

Really wishing I could do more to help you though x


----------



## Misi

Lumboo said:


> Just read the updates Pippa - what is our little PF tyke up to now eh? Hasn't he given everyone enough anxiety already?
> 
> Just so you know, my cats have been lazing out fully stretched today and didn't wolf their food down at all. Even when I took them into the garden they hardly moved. I think the heat is just wearing them all out.
> 
> Hopefully he will make up for his lack of appetite tomorrow and gain double the weight to make up for it.
> I am really glad you took him to the vet though (although I think we all know by now, you would do anything for this kitten and his Mum) I do think the Vet is right thoguh, as it sounds like a blip, and AB's would upset his balance more unless it was really required.
> Really wishing I could do more to help you though x


I've been reading how hot it is in the UK. It's also got a lot hotter here over the last few days. Simba the vacuum cleaner has been eating much less and hasn't really been interested in eating until the evening. Princess "4 square meals a day" Misi is down to 3 small ones and her previous cheery nature has turned into grumpy-draws. They're also somewhat used to the heat. They are both adults, so it doesn't matter if they don't eat for a day and of course it's more serious for a kit, but he must be feeling the heat more, being so small. Hang in there Pippa, tomorrow is another day.


----------



## honeysmummy

Hi hun..just caught up with the thread.....just want to give you the biggest cuddle. The last few weeks must have been draning for you. You have put your whole heart into looking after Tinks and Armani. Animals know the people who care for them...they realise..i am sure of that.

They love you just as much as you love them.
Praying Armani is just going through a blip and will be back on track pronto !!!

Thinking of all three of you

Kelly xxx


----------



## honeysmummy

Hi, just thought...could you give him milk in a medicine syringe and literally shoot the milk into his mouth...i do this with mine with water if they have been ill and i am worried about them not drinking enough water and getting dehydrated.

I am no expert when it comes to kittens so young and this may not be a good idea, so hopefully someone with more experience will be along to say...good idea/bad idea 

Just feel so desperate for you 

Kelly xx


----------



## missmoomoo

i don't think this would be a good idea shooting it in, it's risky enough bottle feeding as they can aspirate and end up with chest infections (in puppys anyway asume it would be the same for kittens) which essentialy can kill them. I think pippa has been trying to drip milk in from a syringe but he is very wriggly etc so hasn't suceeded yet.


----------



## pippa234

honeysmummy said:


> Hi, just thought...could you give him milk in a medicine syringe and literally shoot the milk into his mouth...i do this with mine with water if they have been ill and i am worried about them not drinking enough water and getting dehydrated.
> 
> I am no expert when it comes to kittens so young and this may not be a good idea, so hopefully someone with more experience will be along to say...good idea/bad idea
> 
> Just feel so desperate for you
> 
> Kelly xx





missmoomoo said:


> i don't think this would be a good idea shooting it in, it's risky enough bottle feeding as they can aspirate and end up with chest infections (in puppys anyway asume it would be the same for kittens) which essentialy can kill them. I think pippa has been trying to drip milk in from a syringe but he is very wriggly etc so hasn't suceeded yet.


Thankyou hun, missmoo is correct though, I cant shoot it in hun he is too little and was warned about that and shown how to syringe feed him when he was at the vets last week, i drop it on his tongue slightly from the side, he takes it normally really well, just gently, but resisting at the moment..big time. 
However managed to get him on mum for about 3 minutes an hour ago, keep trying, even mum is getting distressed now though and isnt leaving him, he isn't lethargic though, still wriggling and squeeling when i try and feed him, he is breathing quite heavily and sleeping a lot but not lethargic when he is woken, so it's probably just a blip, well im hoping and praying it is xx


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

I will just say try not to get too stressed when trying to feed him etc (easier said then done I know!!) as they seem to sense the stress and deffo wont feed then. I am saying this from personal experience the more I worry the less they eat the more I worry its like catch 22 but you have to try and stay relaxed and calm and they more than likely to take it from you then. Latching on for three mins is good  can u squeeze gently tinks' teats to check she is still producing milk?? Just a thought but she may have dried up for some reason (rare but can happen) and that could be why he a little stressed. 

Keep going tho hun you doing really well fingers and paws crossed for you and armarni xxxxxx


----------



## pippa234

Just caught up with everyones messages, thank you all so much for all your support, I know it doesn't seem like much, but you are all really helping me in more ways than you realise. xx Thank you xx


----------



## pippa234

Kittenfostermummy said:


> I will just say try not to get too stressed when trying to feed him etc (easier said then done I know!!) as they seem to sense the stress and deffo wont feed then. I am saying this from personal experience the more I worry the less they eat the more I worry its like catch 22 but you have to try and stay relaxed and calm and they more than likely to take it from you then. Latching on for three mins is good  can u squeeze gently tinks' teats to check she is still producing milk?? Just a thought but she may have dried up for some reason (rare but can happen) and that could be why he a little stressed.
> 
> Keep going tho hun you doing really well fingers and paws crossed for you and armarni xxxxxx


Thank you so much, yes she is definitely still producing milk, on squeezing, she isn't heavy with it on any of her teats at all but there is definitely milk there, and he has a favourite that he goes to, he is just squirming and complaining, but thank you for letting me know 3 minutes is good, and i've actually left them upstairs for the last half an hour or so as it was just getting to me so much so hopefully that will do us all good, he seems to smell me straight away now and know my smell and mums, maybe it's that?? I just wish I had someone who had more experience than me here to help me know what to do. x


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

Where abouts are you pippa? As said before in post if one of us PF peeps were close maybe we could come and give u a hand?
Dont mean for u to post ur address just general area?


----------



## pippa234

Kittenfostermummy said:


> Where abouts are you pippa? As said before in post if one of us PF peeps were close maybe we could come and give u a hand?
> Dont mean for u to post ur address just general area?


I will pm you, but unfortunately i know im not local xx


----------



## MoggyBaby

pippa234 said:


> I will pm you, but unfortunately i know im not local xx


Hi Sweets, please give us a 'general' location of where you are (Yorkshire / Staffordshire/ Ayrshire...... etc). There are so many people on this forum and I know that many would be prepared to travel a bit of distance if it would help you out. This is not just a 'cyber' forum - it can be very hands on too when the hands are required. 

Please let us try to help you - you've already done so much and we just want to give you that bit of extra support that you need now.


----------



## Jansheff

How is the little fella doing today?


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

How is Armarni doing today??? Hope he is still fighting!!!! hugs and thinking of you xxxxxxxx


----------



## pippa234

Hi, his weight has dropped to 216g, he is still getting a minute on mum now and again before dropping off, still refusing the cimicat so need to get hold of the royal canin i think and give that a try, cant get it anywhere here so need to order online and hope it comes in time.


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

what is your vets opinion on the weight loss?


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> what is your vets opinion on the weight loss?


Just to keep doing what im doing and if theres anymore tomorrow to take him back and they will take another look if theres anything they can do.


----------



## lizward

Really sorry to say this, and I very much hope I am wrong, but I have seen this happen, when kittens are terribly underweight due to lack of Mum's milk and it isn't picked up in time, they seem to go on OK for a week or even two, but they don't really put on much weight, only a small amount and then start losing it again, and they don't take much milk and never really seem to suck properly. Then they start refusing to take milk and even though they are very very active - more so than their normal weight siblings, presumably because they are desperately searching for food even though they won't take it - they reach the stage where they suddenly go downhill and die (I had one go from very active, out of the nest walking around, to dead, in 15 hours). I have seen this happen with two litters and the common factor in both cases was lack of mother's milk which was not picked up in time. I do hope I am wrong but do be prepared because this sounds horribly familiar.

Liz


----------



## missmoomoo

is his breathing raspy at all? I would ask the vet to see him, has he been checked for cleft palate etc? I don't know what else as I am not a kitten person  Hope he pulls through.... X


----------



## MoggyBaby

Hi Pippa, just a wee post to say that you are all in my thoughts right now and I really, really hope that Armani gets back to suckling very soon.

Sending you all the biggest of hugs and positive vibes hun. 

xxx


----------



## pippa234

missmoomoo said:


> is his breathing raspy at all? I would ask the vet to see him, has he been checked for cleft palate etc? I don't know what else as I am not a kitten person  Hope he pulls through.... X


The vet listened to his breathing yesterday and said it sounded fine, although he does seem to be breathing fast and his chest is moving very obviously, my heart is just breaking watching him and i feel helpless. thankyou for your help everyone, im just finding this a bit too much now as im following all the advice and seeking help from the vets constantly but just dont seem to be getting anywhere, and the post above yours missimoo has just set me off, i think im just going to update if only i have good news cos this is breaking my heart. xx


----------



## Jenny1966

(((big hugs))) you are doing your very best for Armani, don't forget that xx


----------



## dagny0823

Oh dear, this is heartbreaking.

Is there anyone with the Royal Canin stuff she's talking about who could get it to her today? If I was in the UK I'd do it for you. I think waiting for shipping could really be too long and if there's something he needs, he needs it now. 

Pippa, I think everyone here is willing to drive to you--they don't have to live in your town or up the block. Let them help you. You don't have to do this alone.:crying:


----------



## Misi

lizward said:


> Really sorry to say this, and I very much hope I am wrong, but I have seen this happen, when kittens are terribly underweight due to lack of Mum's milk and it isn't picked up in time, they seem to go on OK for a week or even two, but they don't really put on much weight, only a small amount and then start losing it again, and they don't take much milk and never really seem to suck properly. Then they start refusing to take milk and even though they are very very active - more so than their normal weight siblings, presumably because they are desperately searching for food even though they won't take it - they reach the stage where they suddenly go downhill and die (I had one go from very active, out of the nest walking around, to dead, in 15 hours). I have seen this happen with two litters and the common factor in both cases was lack of mother's milk which was not picked up in time. I do hope I am wrong but do be prepared because this sounds horribly familiar.
> Liz


Okay, so is there anything that can be done in this case? Vet? Force-feeding??? Although I know you're trying to present worst-case scenario, I think it's the last thing Pippa needs. If he is a fading kitten, what is the next step, if any?


----------



## Misi

pippa234 said:


> The vet listened to his breathing yesterday and said it sounded fine, although he does seem to be breathing fast and his chest is moving very obviously, my heart is just breaking watching him and i feel helpless. thankyou for your help everyone, im just finding this a bit too much now as im following all the advice and seeking help from the vets constantly but just dont seem to be getting anywhere, and the post above yours missimoo has just set me off, i think im just going to update if only i have good news cos this is breaking my heart. xx


Hang in there, Pippa. You must post everything so we can help you. I think you need to get a bit tough with the vet though.


----------



## harrys_mum

stay with us, we are all behind you and baby, 
we are willing him to get strong, and hope its just the awful heat,
michelle x


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Not my area of expertise at all, but how useful would a drip be in these circumstances?


----------



## missmoomoo

subcutaneous fluids would be beneficial in a pup in these circumstances, they dehydrate ever so quickly!! this would at least keep the baby hydrated. I don't really know about fading kitten? But there is such a thing in pups and there is something that can be done, not sure if it would work on a kitten though  If you need it posting at all Pippa let me know and I will get it up for you. My heart goes out to you it really does and if there is anything we can do to help then just ask... XXX


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Not my area of expertise at all, but how useful would a drip be in these circumstances?


can't put a drip in a tiny kitten but as missmoomoo states you can hydrate kittens thro sub cut fluid injection. Tube feeding is what I would be trying to get vet to show me now as it is the kittens best chance if he not suckling at all.

Hugs pippa hang in there hun xxxxxxx


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Kittenfostermummy said:


> can't put a drip in a tiny kitten but as missmoomoo states you can hydrate kittens thro sub cut fluid injection. Tube feeding is what I would be trying to get vet to show me now as it is the kittens best chance if he not suckling at all.
> 
> Hugs pippa hang in there hun xxxxxxx


Ah yes I think I meant the tube feeding, I think someone (possibly yourself) mentioned that earlier in the thread. 
I hope I am wrong but the vet seems a bit 'itll be ok' about things too much


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

Yeah but sometimes too much intervention can prove counterproductive. 

The only think that I think is maybe take baby off mum and try feeding himself every 20mins yourself. This way if he just takes a little it will still add up to more than he getting from mum. Obviously still put him back with her to keep him warm etc. It will be hard to feed him that much in that it will be hard work but it will be worth it in the end. Big hugs hun xxxxx


----------



## lizward

Misi said:


> Okay, so is there anything that can be done in this case? Vet? Force-feeding??? Although I know you're trying to present worst-case scenario, I think it's the last thing Pippa needs. If he is a fading kitten, what is the next step, if any?


The only thing I can think of that might be worth a try, if lack of food is the only problem (alas that is a big if) is tube feeding. Unfortunately many vets are very reluctant indeed to show you how to do it - in 19 years of breeding I have never learned. There are instructions online and apparently it is very difficult to get it wrong, so it would be worth a try. The problem is that you don't know what underlying issues the kitten might have.

I really really hope he makes it, the owner's heartbreak is clear and she has put such a huge amount into this.

Liz


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

Kittenfostermummy said:


> Yeah but sometimes too much intervention can prove counterproductive.
> 
> The only think that I think is maybe take baby off mum and try feeding himself every 20mins yourself. This way if he just takes a little it will still add up to more than he getting from mum. Obviously still put him back with her to keep him warm etc. It will be hard to feed him that much in that it will be hard work but it will be worth it in the end. Big hugs hun xxxxx


Excuse the terrible grammer and spelling I was half asleep and getting attacked by my kittens


----------



## Aurelia

I said a while back that it would be a good idea to ask the vet to show Pippa how to tube feed, or indeed if she wasn't confident enough to do so, maybe leave little Armani at the vets for a day or two for them to do it. Maybe even take mum cat too, so they can continue the bond.

For any sick kitten, weight loss will only deplete their strength to fight off other things. So less food = less strength = weaker kitten.

It's worth a try  But I would also still prepare yourself for the worse baring in mind the fate/condition of the other kittens.


----------



## missye87

Come on little Armani, sending out lots and lots of vibes from myself, Storm and Benji. Some extra strength ones from big ol' Stormas he is a big strong MC, you will also grow to be that big litle one, promise! xxx


----------



## honeysmummy

Can the powers of be upstairs pls give poor Pippa and her babies a break !!! :crying:

Hun, you are doing everything possible for Armani and you are stronger than you realise 

Sorry about my crap suggestion yesterday of the milk syringe 
This is something completely off subject, but it may make things clearer in your very tired and stressed head...My cousin gave birth to a gorgeous baby boy 5 yrs ago , his name was Liam and he was born at 24 wks old and weighed 1lb 12 ozs.

He had many problems due to him being born so early, breathing, feeding, internal problems etc. My cousin stayed with him every minute and he was a little fighter, breaking all the odds of surviving past his birth. After 2 weeks he got very weak and he couldnt fight anymore even with his big heart !!
He passed away peacefully after 15 days and he is our little angel now. We eventually began to accept that his body had given up, because if by a small miracle he survived, his life would be blighted with illness and pain.
I have also heard of babies surviving, being born weighing alot less and continue to grow up fit and healthy. It must be so hard to wait for a change in his condition.

Pippa you are doing everything in your power to give little Armani the best possible life...but unfortunately this decision will be taken out of your hands at some point by nature.

I am hoping with all my heart that Armani's present state is a blip and he will start to turn a corner. Whatever happens, just carry on loving him and know that we are all behind the three of you and sending you all the best wishes and hugs in the world 

Kelly xx


----------



## pippa234

Thank you everyone for all your messages of support, I really appreciate them. x 
I'm posting because Armani has gained a tiny bit at 9pm weigh in, 223g so I just wanted to let you allknow he hasn't lost anymore, I have been following kittenfostermummy's advice and attempting 20minutes of tiny drops on the tongue, he squeels and shrugs away so much I dont know if he is getting any, then ive been putting him straight on mum and he has been taking a couple of sucks and I'll keep it up through the night and see how it goes.

thank you again everyone x


----------



## Jenny1966

Keep up the good work xx


----------



## honeysmummy

pippa234 said:


> Thank you everyone for all your messages of support, I really appreciate them. x
> I'm posting because Armani has gained a tiny bit at 9pm weigh in, 223g so I just wanted to let you allknow he hasn't lost anymore, I have been following kittenfostermummy's advice and attempting 20minutes of tiny drops on the tongue, he squeels and shrugs away so much I dont know if he is getting any, then ive been putting him straight on mum and he has been taking a couple of sucks and I'll keep it up through the night and see how it goes.
> 
> thank you again everyone x


Thats brilliant news hun.....come on Armani...we want to see you big and strong

Kelly xxx


----------



## MoggyBaby

pippa234 said:


> Thank you everyone for all your messages of support, I really appreciate them. x
> I'm posting because Armani has gained a tiny bit at 9pm weigh in, 223g so I just wanted to let you allknow he hasn't lost anymore, I have been following kittenfostermummy's advice and attempting 20minutes of tiny drops on the tongue, he squeels and shrugs away so much I dont know if he is getting any, then ive been putting him straight on mum and he has been taking a couple of sucks and I'll keep it up through the night and see how it goes.
> 
> thank you again everyone x


Oh what wonderful news - this was the very, very first place I came to when I logged on this morning to see how things were going. This has REALLY cheered me up and I am delighted that our little fighter continues to give it his all.

To keep repeating myself, and re-itterating everyone's sentiments, you are so wonderful Pippa for what you are doing for these two furbabies. It must be difficult for both Mum & baby and you have been a total star for all the effort you are are making.

But please, do let us try to help you out. You must be absolutely exhausted by now, so please let some of us try to give you proper hands-on support. The more tired you become the harder this is all going to be babes - please tell us your general location........

Big hugs for you all to keep you going. 

xxx


----------



## Misi

What Moggybaby said :thumbup1:


----------



## pippa234

So far so good 227g this morning, this morning he had a good ten minutes suckling on mum  at about 5am so i actually stopped doing the every 20 minutes and slept until 7.30, put him straight on mum and he did the same  and i've been doing the every 20 minutes since then, he seems to still hate me syringe feeding and the squeels and head pulling away are hard work, i really dont know how much he gets if any!


----------



## Jenny1966

awww great news Pippa 

Maybe it was just the really hot weather! Keep doing what you are doing, because it seems to be working


----------



## Jansheff

Sounds like he's interesting in feeding again, please God. You're doing SOOO well and trying so hard for this baby. I'm flying to Turkey this afternoon, but I'm going to have to find some way of logging on and finding out how he's doing. 

Really hope he's turned the corner now.


----------



## Misi

Phew! I'm going into town for a gelato with my friend. I can go with a lighter heart now!


----------



## Dally Banjo

Great news  I wonder if there is some sort of soft end you can get to go on the syringe? that mught be better for him


----------



## pippa234

Dally Banjo said:


> Great news  I wonder if there is some sort of soft end you can get to go on the syringe? that mught be better for him


Hiya, believe it or not I have an end to it, little rubber thing, ive tried it with and without, it's easier to do with though, it could just be the cimicat he doesnt like but hopefully the royal canin milk will come today so we shall see.

He is definitely more active on mum suckling today, although i think mums getting a bit fed up of it!


----------



## Dally Banjo

pippa234 said:


> Hiya, believe it or not I have an end to it, little rubber thing, ive tried it with and without, it's easier to do with though, it could just be the cimicat he doesnt like but hopefully the royal canin milk will come today so we shall see.
> 
> He is definitely more active on mum suckling today, although i think mums getting a bit fed up of it!


Oh dear I hope mum does'nt start acting up, typical is'nt it just get one sorted  spots crossed he like's the RC & it arrives soon  x


----------



## MoggyBaby

pippa234 said:


> So far so good 227g this morning, this morning he had a good ten minutes suckling on mum  at about 5am so i actually stopped doing the every 20 minutes and slept until 7.30, put him straight on mum and he did the same  and i've been doing the every 20 minutes since then, he seems to still hate me syringe feeding and the squeels and head pulling away are hard work, i really dont know how much he gets if any!


Sorry, can't type, we're all too busy dancing for joy at this great news....


----------



## lizward

This is sounding better, I am glad. If he is gaining weight it may be that you will be able to stop feeding him soon and have a well earned rest. How old is he now? 

Oddly enough I have had this recently, hand feeding three kittens who were painfully tiny and they weren't taking the milk very well at all. Suddenly since yesterday all are gaining weight, all seem to be getting milk from Mum and all have rounded tummies. They are still horribly underweight (their brother who has been getting all the milk from Mum weighs almost three times as much as the smallest and more than twice as much as the second biggest) but I now have some hope for them.

Liz


----------



## Lumboo

Excellent news  
(Can you please stop worrying us now Armani! )

I wonder if it was the heat. My two are almost 6 months and ate properly for the first time in two days this morning as it was cooler.


----------



## missye87

Even my NOMNOM monsters were off their food yesterday and they are real piggies, they both started gobbling food during the night though as it got cooler so I'm hoping it was only the heat.

Baby cuddles and belly tickles for baby Armani xxx


----------



## pippa234

Just a few pictures from today x


----------



## Jenny1966

:001_wub: He is the cutest little thing!


Love the second pic


----------



## MoggyBaby

He's is JUST so adorable......... :001_tt1: :001_tt1:

I'm with Jenny, that second pic is goigeous. 

You do realise that Armani is now officially the Forum Cat, we're just allowing you to have custody of him!!!!


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

So glad things are looking up come on Armarni!!!!


----------



## claire & the gang

I just read through this whole thread as not been on much with one thing & another, talk about a rollercoaster ride.

You have done such a good job with Armani & his mum.
Those pictures are absolutely gorgeous especially the second one. Hopefully the ride will be smoother for you now & you will get to enjoy the product of your hard work....it seems clear that neither of them would have likely made it without you. Tinks is one lucky cat:wink:


----------



## harrys_mum

sooooo glad things are looking up for armani, he is just the cutest thing youve every seen, something very special being the one left, and mum looks so proud of him bless her. well done you, i repeat what someone said it the first thing i look at everyday to see how hes getting on,
please keep the pics coming. makes my day and its helping me through a tough time. thanks.
if i lived near you i would be straight round.
michelle x


----------



## missmoomoo

what gorgeous pics...Mum and Armani ar beautiful.  Keep up the good work Pippa!! XX


----------



## missye87

How comes certain babies have such an effect on you? You post pics of Armani and I'm reduced to a baby-voice talking drivelling idiot?! How cute is he??? I just want to cuddle him!!:001_tt1:


----------



## pippa234

missye87 said:


> How comes certain babies have such an effect on you? You post pics of Armani and I'm reduced to a baby-voice talking drivelling idiot?! How cute is he??? I just want to cuddle him!!:001_tt1:


He melts me every minute I'm looking at him, and he is actually quite a little purrer that loves having his behind the ears gently rubbed, developing little bits of personality aside from his, 'yelp yelp dont feed me', he also quite likes laying on his back all legs in the air, very undignified and not the best position for me to look over and see him in! 

Anyway, thanks again everyone for your lovely messages and little steps I know but the 9pm weigh in was 231g still very very reluctant to feed but managed to get a few good ones on mum (just no where near enough though) and just had another squeeling session with the cimicat as the royal canin hasnt turned up yet. I'm going to carry on with every 20 minutes again tonight and try and catch a couple of hours sleep if he seems to get a good feed from mum. xx


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

231g you mean yep?


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> 231g you mean yep?


Oops well spotted Yes  will edit!


----------



## honeysmummy

Oh Pippa...they are both absolutely stunning !!!!!!!!!!!
My heart has just melted :001_tt1: :001_tt1:

It has made my night to read how little Armani is feeding better 
You are a superstar Pippa and hopefully soon you will be looking back at these early days and shaking your head in disbelief as Armani becomes a little chunky monkey and is running rings around you and Tinks 

Hope you get some rest hun...big hugs to the three of you 

Kelly xxx


----------



## pippa234

honeysmummy said:


> Oh Pippa...they are both absolutely stunning !!!!!!!!!!!
> My heart has just melted :001_tt1: :001_tt1:
> 
> It has made my night to read how little Armani is feeding better
> You are a superstar Pippa and hopefully soon you will be looking back at these early days and shaking your head in disbelief as Armani becomes a little chunky monkey and is running rings around you and Tinks
> 
> Hope you get some rest hun...big hugs to the three of you
> 
> Kelly xxx


Thank you so much, I really really hope and pray that and he is so welcome to run rings round me anytime 
Had a frustrating last few hours as couldn't get him to take from mum or my attempts but he just had a whole ten minutes on mum  so having a little break now.

I hope you all realise how supportive you have been to me and how it has helped me knowing that you have all been behind me..willing Armani on xx


----------



## pippa234

Didn't want to neglect Tinks and she is on my bed so took a pic thought you may like 









Long nights


----------



## MoggyBaby

pippa234 said:


> Didn't want to neglect Tinks and she is on my bed so took a pic thought you may like
> 
> View attachment 70929
> 
> 
> Long nights


Oh Pippa......... :001_tt1: :001_tt1: :001_tt1:

Now we know why Armani is such a handsome little man - his Mommy is ABSOLUTELY STUNNING!!!!!!!! :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:


----------



## pippa234

9am weigh in 236g 
I know it's not great, but it's up


----------



## MoggyBaby

pippa234 said:


> 9am weigh in 236g
> I know it's not great, but it's up


I'd say 5g in 12hrs is not too shoddy hun (working on the assumption that you had just weighed him at 9 pm'ish last night when you posted the 231g weight up......). If he can do the same again in the next 12hrs then he'll be hitting the recommended 10g a day requirement. Which can only be a good thing...... 

Stop being so hard on yourself.... You're doing a truly fantastic job with him.


----------



## missye87

pippa234 said:


> He melts me every minute I'm looking at him, and he is actually quite a little purrer that loves having his behind the ears gently rubbed, developing little bits of personality aside from his, 'yelp yelp dont feed me', he also quite likes laying on his back all legs in the air, very undignified and not the best position for me to look over and see him in!
> 
> Anyway, thanks again everyone for your lovely messages and little steps I know but the 9pm weigh in was 231g still very very reluctant to feed but managed to get a few good ones on mum (just no where near enough though) and just had another squeeling session with the cimicat as the royal canin hasnt turned up yet. I'm going to carry on with every 20 minutes again tonight and try and catch a couple of hours sleep if he seems to get a good feed from mum. xx


Benji lays on his back regularly, I reckon it's a MC thing


----------



## MoggyBaby

PS: Just clocked your new avitar hun......... Nice one!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Jenny1966

:thumbup: going in the right direction! Well done Armani, Tinks and Pippa!!


----------



## Misi

Up is up!! They're white and fluffy, like Simba! Simba also lies on his back a lot


----------



## harrys_mum

tinks is an absolute stunner, i adore fluffy cats, and thats why i fell for her in the first place and her lovely little baby. keep doing well, cant wait to see pics every week. give both a big kiss from me,
michelle x


----------



## pippa234

Just chillin ...


----------



## Jenny1966

awwwww how adorable :001_wub:


Armani looks like he cant be bothered today


----------



## MoggyBaby

*GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!*

There are no other words for him!!!!! :001_tt1: :001_tt1: :001_tt1:


----------



## Misi

They are such a special pair. Pippa, I swear, you've got to write a book about all this. You should have serialised it in the paper, then got a book deal, world tour... And we'll all say, "We know, cos we were there!!"


----------



## pippa234

Misi said:


> They are such a special pair. Pippa, I swear, you've got to write a book about all this. You should have serialised it in the paper, then got a book deal, world tour... And we'll all say, "We know, cos we were there!!"


Lol, would you believe I really am a very 'private' person and like to keep myself to myself lol, it's been an amazing couple of weeks realising with a little bit of 'Im new and wanted to say hi' just what fantastic people you all are who have given me so much support and ressurance day after day.

Thank you, I'm hoping and praying as I know everyone is that Armani thrives, he is such a special little kitten that I can barely take my eyes off. xx


----------



## missye87

Ooooh he is such a chubby little sausage!  he definitely does the Benji-sprawl flat out on his back, probably attention seeking behaviour as Benji likes to look cute and hope for belly rubs


----------



## Misi

pippa234 said:


> Lol, would you believe I really am a very 'private' person and like to keep myself to myself lol, it's been an amazing couple of weeks realising with a little bit of 'Im new and wanted to say hi' just what fantastic people you all are who have given me so much support and ressurance day after day.
> 
> Thank you, I'm hoping and praying as I know everyone is that Armani thrives, he is such a special little kitten that I can barely take my eyes off. xx


Yes, you come over like that, and very serene and together and capable. Perhaps you see yourself like a swan, all serene above, legs kicking like billy-o beneath  I think that's what makes this journey so appealing for the rest of us to follow. Of course, 2 breathtakingly gorgeous kits might just have something to do with it as well. We're all holding our breath and I know I'm not the only one who rushes to see what's happening with Armani before they've even had their breakfast! I'm an hour ahead of UK time so have to wait a bit longer!


----------



## harrys_mum

bless his little cotton socks, can i please have him,
adorable doesnt cover it, love the pink bits.
michelle x


----------



## lizward

I don't think she's going to be giving him away somehow 

Liz


----------



## Misi

harrys_mum said:


> bless his little cotton socks, can i please have him,
> adorable doesnt cover it, love the pink bits.
> michelle x


Get in line, sister!:smilewinkgrin:


----------



## mamf

Im so glad he is doing well! He is beautiful.. And so is his story


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

Hey Pippa, Tinks and Armarni, I am so glad to hear Armarni is still putting on weight and you are doing fab!!! I don't even think I would of coped as well as you have been doing if a similar thing had happened to me with my hand rears and I have hands on support from the RSPCA as I hand rear for them!! 

Lets hope this little baby keeps putting on weight and going from strength to strength!!! 

p.s I am loving the new pics of both mum and baby they both look so happy and content!! WELL DONE YOU!!!!!!!


----------



## CatLoverLisa

Hi Pippa

I just spent the last half an hour reading through this thread - so emotional and what a rollercoaster ride! So so *so* pleased that things are looking up for little Armani and mum. Let's hope this story has no more twists and turns, just a happy ending. Can't wait to see more pics and watch him grow! 

Also, just to echo what everyone else has said to you - I think you are amazing and a real inspiration. The way that you have looked after Tinks and Armani, even when this situation was more a less just dumped on you, is absolutely incredible. You should look at mum and kitten and feel extremely proud. Keep up the good work.


----------



## MooKatMoon

Hi Pippa i have not dared come in here for a few days, but i am so pleased i did tonight, Armani is a beautiful furbaby and Tinks is very beautiful too. I hope now that it has cooled off a bit Armani is feeling a lot better and eating well.
Once again i would like to say well done you.


----------



## honeysmummy

Hi Pippa...Armani is getting more gorgeous by the day !!!
Tinks is a real beauty as well...you can tell you are such a proud mummy.

Hoping it will start to get easier for the three of you.

Sending big hugs as always

Kelly xx


----------



## pippa234

Kittenfostermummy said:


> Hey Pippa, Tinks and Armarni, I am so glad to hear Armarni is still putting on weight and you are doing fab!!! I don't even think I would of coped as well as you have been doing if a similar thing had happened to me with my hand rears and I have hands on support from the RSPCA as I hand rear for them!!
> 
> Lets hope this little baby keeps putting on weight and going from strength to strength!!!
> 
> p.s I am loving the new pics of both mum and baby they both look so happy and content!! WELL DONE YOU!!!!!!!


Thank you hun, to be honest it was your messages that gave me the advice that has kept him going in my opinion, hard work though damn you woman lol, yet the every 20 mins of feeding has finally somehow got him up to *246g* at 9pm weigh in  I was sooooooo happy!!! Thank you xx

Sorry I am so late to update, my laptop is dying on me again, only have half a screen and that is only when i hold down the top half  oh well, it'll have to wait  xx


----------



## pippa234

Misi said:


> Get in line, sister!:smilewinkgrin:


This little fella is going nowhere .. he is everyones to share i'm just not letting go, I think you all know me well enough by now lol  x


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

pippa234 said:


> Thank you hun, to be honest it was your messages that gave me the advice that has kept him going in my opinion, hard work though damn you woman lol, yet the every 20 mins of feeding has finally somehow got him up to *246g* at 9pm weigh in  I was sooooooo happy!!! Thank you xx
> 
> Sorry I am so late to update, my laptop is dying on me again, only have half a screen and that is only when i hold down the top half  oh well, it'll have to wait  xx


Im glad it seems to be working hun and wow thats alot better 246gms YAY!!!!!! come on armarni you can do it!!!

Has the royal canin turned up yet??

It is always at the worst possible times that things go wrong like lappy dieing etc grrrrrrrr hope it doesnt die totally we need updates!!! lol


----------



## pippa234

Kittenfostermummy said:


> Im glad it seems to be working hun and wow thats alot better 246gms YAY!!!!!! come on armarni you can do it!!!
> 
> Has the royal canin turned up yet??
> 
> It is always at the worst possible times that things go wrong like lappy dieing etc grrrrrrrr hope it doesnt die totally we need updates!!! lol


Laptop's driving me mad arghh..
quick update it's difficult typing whilst holding the screen with the other hand lol
Milk hasn't come yet, always takes ages for anything to be delivered here but mum is still managing to being subjected to frequent feeds, so hopefully we can get by tomorrow and should be here Monday x

256g  a little early 9pm weigh in as i have a 'friend' :wink: coming round shortly.. how i'm managing to hang onto my toyboy whilst standing him up for the sake of Armani i will never know, lol but luckily he got the message who comes first and to take it or leave it  xx


----------



## missye87

pippa234 said:


> Laptop's driving me mad arghh..
> quick update it's difficult typing whilst holding the screen with the other hand lol
> Milk hasn't come yet, always takes ages for anything to be delivered here but mum is still managing to being subjected to frequent feeds, so hopefully we can get by tomorrow and should be here Monday x
> 
> 256g  a little early 9pm weigh in as i have a 'friend' :wink: coming round shortly.. how i'm managing to hang onto my toyboy whilst standing him up for the sake of Armani i will never know, lol but luckily he got the message who comes first and to take it or leave it  xx


Whoop whoop! His weight gains are making my day!  VERY happy!


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

Yay up again wooo hooooo!!!!! Bet you so proud!!! enjoy urself tonight hun and he sounds like a right keeper!!!!!!


----------



## honeysmummy

Keep piling it on Armani, you precious little bundle of fluff !!
Three hugs coming your way as always 

Kelly xxxx


----------



## pippa234

honeysmummy said:


> Keep piling it on Armani, you precious little bundle of fluff !!
> Three hugs coming your way as always
> 
> Kelly xxxx


Thank you hun, Armani isn't doing as well as I want him to, I keep wishing he'd have a little spurt but I know it's good he is putting on, boyfriend has gone and I'm back to holding my laptop together to let you all know he is ok x

Really wish I felt happier about his breathing, it niggles at me, it's so fast and his chest moves so quickly, he must do 80/90 breaths in a minute.

The vet said she couldnt hear anything untoward but you know those niggles you get when it just doesn't seem right??

I don't know if it's because i dont have any other kittens to compare him to, but anyone that has new kittens could you please take at look at them now not as a group, but just one of them and tell me how their breathing is and how much does there chest move??

Pippa x


----------



## gloworm*mushroom

Is he asleep or active at the moment. Just form some very brief googing I have answers from 'vets' at 20-40 breaths per minute whilst sleeping, but as I said that is just from what is written on line.


----------



## Kittenfostermummy

I must admit that many breaths does sound excessive could he be too hot and therefore panting??


----------



## pippa234

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Is he asleep or active at the moment. Just form some very brief googing I have answers from 'vets' at 20-40 breaths per minute whilst sleeping, but as I said that is just from what is written on line.


That's his normal breathing but ott in my opinion 
And im not an expert hence why im asking for opinions, just have the feeling its odd and too fast, was the same when i took him to the vets the other day, she listened to his chest and breathing, blase or whatever but she didnt find a reason to do anything.. like she said 'didnt want to fill his gut with antibiotics if he didnt need them' and as he lost no more weight and actually put little bits on i'm holding back as they said no need to bring him in again etc etc unless he does ..am i getting paranoid or is this wrong??


----------



## pippa234

Kittenfostermummy said:


> I must admit that many breaths does sound excessive could he be too hot and therefore panting??


He isnt panting ever, has a huge space with snuggly bits to go to, so no way he gets hot, it's normal breathing at normal rate for him, i had no idea it was as fast as it was until i conted the breaths, his chest is just getting so much more obvious now as he gets bigger , vets monday isnt it??


----------



## Jansheff

I said I.d have to find someway of logging on from Turkey and here I am using a kindle. Very slow going!

But glad to see th little one is putting on some weight and hope that this breathing thing turns out to be nothing to worry about.


----------



## honeysmummy

pippa234 said:


> Thank you hun, Armani isn't doing as well as I want him to, I keep wishing he'd have a little spurt but I know it's good he is putting on, boyfriend has gone and I'm back to holding my laptop together to let you all know he is ok x
> 
> Really wish I felt happier about his breathing, it niggles at me, it's so fast and his chest moves so quickly, he must do 80/90 breaths in a minute.
> 
> The vet said she couldnt hear anything untoward but you know those niggles you get when it just doesn't seem right??
> 
> I don't know if it's because i dont have any other kittens to compare him to, but anyone that has new kittens could you please take at look at them now not as a group, but just one of them and tell me how their breathing is and how much does there chest move??
> 
> Pippa x


Hi hun, I dont really know about the breathing rate, but i have to admit my two freak me out sometimes when they are sleeping and i watch them and they are breathing so fast !!!

If at all worried, ask vet to check over Armani again. I think because you are with him practically 24/7 you are constantly worried so maybe the vet could set your mind at rest 

Hoping for a big weight gain soon because i know how much better that will make you feel. You are giving him every chance so keep your chin up and know you are doing a fantastic job 

I am off to spain this afternoon, back on friday, will do my best to find wireless over there so i can log and keep up with his progress.

Sending big hugs today

Lots of love

Kelly xxx


----------



## MooKatMoon

Hi Pippa, i have a kitten of nearly 6 months old, and when i first got her she used to worry me, as Nims breathing was very fast, but she seemed ok in herself, i asked the vet about it when i took her and vet said nothing wrong.

As Nim has grown her breathing has slowed, but still sometimes, i watch her when se is sleeping and she seem to be breathing so fast. But she is fine and very healthy.

Just keep an eye on him, if he is distressed then get him to the vets, but other than that i would just give him the love and care that you are.

Fab job hun, bug hugs for you tinks and Armarni

Oh by the way, Nim is a strange mix, here mum was a Coonie crossed with a tabby, and her dad is a russian blue.


----------



## Misi

Both of my cats breathe quite quickly. Simba (fluffy and white like Armani and his mum) breathes really quickly, but it is mega-hot here at the moment. I think if the vet's not concerned, he should be okay.


----------



## pippa234

Just a little update, Armani has slowed back down again and not really gained much the last couple of days, he seems fine though, maybe he just has these fits and starts with his weight, it seems very much to being a bit of a pattern. 
I will try and get some more pics up tomorrow xx


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## Kittenfostermummy

Has the milk turned up yet hun?? Im sorry to hear his weight gain has slowed again lets hope he stays ok!!


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## pippa234

Kittenfostermummy said:


> Has the milk turned up yet hun?? Im sorry to hear his weight gain has slowed again lets hope he stays ok!!


Hiya, Yes it came today but he squeels just as much! I was hoping the little teats may make a difference but he is just so so fussy!


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## Kittenfostermummy

Have you tried the bottles? I would say try him on number 1 pointing upwards first and gently press the teat. If he not latching on then you may have to wriggle it in his mouth. 

WARNING if the milk is too hot it shoots out of the teat like a hot milk fountain not a good thing!!


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## maryrose1977

Is there a single room you can give to the pregnant cat? I say this because its best to confine in one room because the cat will go in the strangest of places to give birth. We locked ours up in our bedroom, complete with food, water and litter tray. Blocked off all access under the bed. 

When she is due to go into labour she will give you signs, like looking for a place to go thats quiet, ours was trying to get under the bed so i knew it was going to happen that day and i was right. 

Try to research about cats in labour i am not sure if this site has a page for how to help in labour if things go wrong. Usually a cat does it all themselves tho but you should count one placenta per kitten. If she doesnt chew the cord you will have to learn how to do this also. 

If she is pushing hard and no babies appear for an hour call the vet a kitten may be stuck.

If your cat has long hair it can help to trim near her girlie bits so its not so its not so messy. 

Maybe someone else can give better advice but thats all i can remember. My kittens were born 17 days ago and i am in love


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## MoggyBaby

maryrose1977 said:


> Is there a single room you can give to the pregnant cat? I say this because its best to confine in one room because the cat will go in the strangest of places to give birth. We locked ours up in our bedroom, complete with food, water and litter tray. Blocked off all access under the bed.
> 
> When she is due to go into labour she will give you signs, like looking for a place to go thats quiet, ours was trying to get under the bed so i knew it was going to happen that day and i was right.
> 
> Try to research about cats in labour i am not sure if this site has a page for how to help in labour if things go wrong. Usually a cat does it all themselves tho but you should count one placenta per kitten. If she doesnt chew the cord you will have to learn how to do this also.
> 
> If she is pushing hard and no babies appear for an hour call the vet a kitten may be stuck.
> 
> If your cat has long hair it can help to trim near her girlie bits so its not so its not so messy.
> 
> Maybe someone else can give better advice but thats all i can remember. My kittens were born 17 days ago and i am in love


Wonderful & helpful advice Maryrose but a touch too late as the birth happened about 2 / 3 weeks ago......


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## MooKatMoon

Mary rose, please read this whole thread, it is a heartwarming story, that will make you cry, and also proud to have had a little peep in to pippas life, and what a great, no not great, fantastic job pippa has done.

Hope all is ok with you pippa, and i hope Armani starts to eat again soon. and that Tinks is still being a good Mum


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## alisondalziel

Hi to all following this thread.

Pippa is unable to log on due to laptop problems so i'm posting for her...

Afraid it's not good news today. Armani isn't feeding from mum or from a syringe. The vet has said to keep trying and to take him in tomorrow if he's still the same. He's lethargic and just not interested. His breathing is also laboured. 

The vet thinks there's not much more that can be done, Pippa has the vets' mobile number to hand. She's understandably very very upset and hoping for a miracle. 

I feel terrible posting such sad news and am saddened by it myself. 

My heart really goes out to Pippa at this stage, she's really done all she can do. x


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## Dally Banjo

Everything crossed here for them, it's time she had some luck x


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## Kittenfostermummy

Awwww no thats horrid Armarni and Pippa are in my thoughts send her my best wishes please and I will keep everything crossed that he picks up :crying:


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## alisondalziel

The vet is popping in 'off duty' to see Armani but it doesn't look good. Mum has lost interest and seems to know there's something wrong, she's just keeping him warm and that's all.


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## MoggyBaby

:crying: :crying: :crying:

Come on Armani, hang on in there dude. So many people are praying for you tonight.......


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## lizward

O no, what a pity, after all the effort she has put in.

Liz


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## gloworm*mushroom

If theres anyone on here that deserves for this to go right, its Pippa


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## Bonnie82

Oh gosh, have just read this thread (got about 15 pages in then had to skip to the end as I couldn't bear it!) and am so sad to hear that Armani is not doing well. Poor baby.  I really, really, REALLY hope things pick up soon. Sending lots of love. xxx


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## alisondalziel

The vet has been and has said the breathing is very laboured and there isn't any more that can be done.

His breathing problems seem to be stopping him from suckling, and are most probably underlying heart problems, or his lungs aren't working or not fully developed.

He said that there wouldn't be a benefit to tube feeding him


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## Dally Banjo

alisondalziel said:


> The vet has been and has said the breathing is very laboured and there isn't any more that can be done.
> 
> His breathing problems seem to be stopping him from suckling, and are most probably underlying heart problems, or his lungs aren't working or not fully developed.
> 
> He said that there wouldn't be a benefit to tube feeding him


Poor little paws :crying: somethings just arnt ment to be, but still keeping everythings crossed here for him x


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## gloworm*mushroom

alisondalziel said:


> The vet has been and has said the breathing is very laboured and there isn't any more that can be done.
> 
> His breathing problems seem to be stopping him from suckling, and are most probably underlying heart problems, or his lungs aren't working or not fully developed.
> 
> He said that there wouldn't be a benefit to tube feeding him


At least we know absolutely everything has been done for this little one. He was in the best hands possible. Still hoping for a happy outcome


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## alisondalziel

Pippa wants to thank everyone who has followed this story and offered support and help. Will update tomorrow...


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## lymorelynn

I've not posted on this before but have been following Pippa's struggle.
Poor little Aramani  Paws crossed here for a miracle but I think I would be prepared for the worst


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## Misi

I don't know what to say. I hope he'll be okay


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## MooKatMoon

oh this is sad sad news,

Pippa my heart go's out to you. you poor girl.

i hope all is not lost, 

i can;t say any more cos i am crying for you.


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## Kittenfostermummy

alisondalziel said:


> The vet has been and has said the breathing is very laboured and there isn't any more that can be done.
> 
> His breathing problems seem to be stopping him from suckling, and are most probably underlying heart problems, or his lungs aren't working or not fully developed.
> 
> He said that there wouldn't be a benefit to tube feeding him


awwww noooo :crying::crying: pippa if you reading this my heart goes out to you ((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


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## Jenny1966

:crying: don't know what to say (((hugs))) xxx


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## mamf

Oh no... Poor pippa and armani..


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## missye87

Praying for baby Armani here! Hoping for a miracle and that he pulls through this xxx


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## alisondalziel

I speak for Pippa when i say thankyou to everyone who has commented and given their support, it means a lot.

Armani is still here.  Pippa was up all night and has managed to get him to take some milk via syringe at around 4am.

Like i said to her earlier, it will be a miracle if he pulls through!!


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## Misi

Thank you Alison for the update. I'm on the brink of tears every time I read new posts. My heart's pounding every time I see an update. I hope so much he makes it. There will be a lot of very sad people if he doesn't. I'm off on hols tomorrow and I'm not sure how likely I'll be able to check in here. I can hardly bear the thought of not knowing. We'll be up in the mountains in Slovenia until Sunday, after that there's a chance I might be able to check in. I hope so. Hoping for the very best for the little one.


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## Lumboo

Please stay strong and pull through Armani. Really praying your lungs get strong enough to allow you to breathe with ease.

Hugs to Pippa (and Tinks) x


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## MoggyBaby

As with everyone else, my thoughts are with Pippa, Tinks & Armani and I just keep praying that the miracle comes through on this gorgeous, wonderful little fella.

Come on Armani, you can do this.........


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## Bonnie82

Oh gosh, I so hope that Armani pulls through and that him taking some milk from a syringe is a good sign of things to come. Thank you so much for updating us, Alison! 

We're all thinking of you Armani!!!


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## missye87

Me and the boys are happy to hear that some food has been able to be given, and we are sending lots of strong healing vibes for baby Armani! xxx


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## alisondalziel

Pippa contacted me just after i posted earlier. 

She has asked me not to post and is going to try to get on later to update herself.


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## welshjet

Pippa, i had a bump on monday and am only just now catching up


Hugs xxxxx sending masses of them xxxxxx

Clare xxx


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## harrys_mum

ahh come on armani, you can do it, youve got to this stage . we all need you to be strong and survive. cant bear the thought otherwise. ive been away all weekend and didnt expect this.
thinking of you 
michelle x


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## Jenny1966

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/183464-armani.html

:crying:


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