# Fear aggression after neutering?



## Clare&Oscar (Aug 15, 2009)

How long does it take for the hormones to settle down after neutering?
Oscar was neutered a couple of months ago at about 18months old and he seems to be really jumpy now, he will growl and bark at the slightest noise. 

The most worrying thing is he seems to now be fearful of people, he is fine if they have a dog as he's more interested in playing with them but if there is no dog he will start to growl and bark at them - it sounds really aggressive and I'm not sure if he would bite them or not. This is scaring me now as he started to growl and bark (it's a proper growl not just a grumble) at several people on our walks including a young boy and I don't know what to do. 

I want people to be able to say hello to him but he starts being aggressive as soon as they come towards him and any sudden movement frightens him. He has also developed howling at night when we go to bed, it only lasts 30 seconds or so but it is every night now, we don't go down to him as we know he has been let out before he goes to bed.


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## MontyA (Feb 3, 2010)

Hi, sorry I'm not able to help, but wanted to say I'm going through something similar, but for different reasons. Monty is only 8 months and hasn't been neutered, but has also developed this fear, and barks whenever someone comes into the house.

It's been suggested I distract him, which I'm definitely going to try. He loves food, so I think it will be quite easy to do.

Good luck - hope you get the answers you need soon.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i wouldn't blame it on his neutering, clare - 
he was 18-MO, not a pubertal-pup in the midst of his secondary fear-period, 
nor apparently was he a nervous-pup from the start, was he? 
[personally i have never seen a M-pup made worse / more fearful as a result of desex-surgery, 
if they WERE fearful they seem about the same after; if they were not, again they seem unchanged.]

what was his behavior **before** desex? 
bold, happy, interactive, loved ppl, pulled to meet them, enjoyed strangers petting him, solicited attn from strangers of any age or gender, no hesitation about loud kids, rude boys, grabby infants, elders with canes, ppl who look, sound, act or smell very-different from his usual encounters? 
where did he start-out, and what is the change till now?

re his changed behavior - 
i would say either something *happened* which may have seemed of no concern at the time, 
or something changed - beyond the dog, in the environment: is it noisier? are there more strangers around? 
some dogs are bothered by seasonal-changes in village or seaside popns, where suddenly there are more tourists 
and fewer familiar residents, more noise [kids running about, a summer fair with rides + crowds, etc].

it is also possible something happened when U were not around - teasing while he is in the garden? 
strangers while U are out of the house, road-mending, home-repairs, package deliveries, etc? 
firecrackers, violent storm, house-razing, other short-term loud events?

i would not focus much on WHY; its nice to know, but not mandatory, he can begin B-Mod without it - 
i would just work on reducing his anxiety, first with **calmatives** to help - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much...

a good hands-on pos-R trainer could be a huge help, even if only for one session, in showing U how to manage him 
to prevent his over-reactions, and an emergency-U-turn to get him out of any situation over his head - 
the APDT-uk and COAPE are both safe sources for local referrals, rather than simply consulting the service-ads, 
or looking at websites.

but failing in-person help, the book Click to Calm is an excellent DIY-resource for any B-Mod, whether 
fears, aggro, over-arousal, or any other form of reactivity - if U don't want to buy the book, the local-library 
is a possibility, and even if they have no copy, InterLibrary loan will fetch it to the local-lender. 

if U could share details of his previous behavior, and for now, track WHO he most-reacts to - 
keep a simple log, and note anything about the folks he avoids, barks at, growls at, etc - are they M? 
F? what age? what are they wearing? are they different from U, and in what way? 
those might narrow-down the root -

but IME, it is not required to know the cause, to have good results from B-Mod - 
after all, dogs from shelters who were picked-up as strays have no behavioral history, and yet 
they can be very successfully helped by B-Mod either in a foster-setting or once adopted. 

i hope this helps, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MontyA said:


> Hi, sorry I'm not able to help, but wanted to say I'm going through something similar, but for different reasons. Monty is only 8 months and hasn't been neutered, but has also developed this fear, and barks whenever someone comes into the house.


hey, hun! :--) 
now THAT sounds like classic secondary-fear period onset: he suddenly realized there is an Us and a Them, 
and Them-ppl don't live here, and they scare him  social-butterfly pups can go into a near-hermit stage, 
when this kicks-in - luckily it is a short-term phase, and most pups sail thru it with no long-term effects.

just keep up his training, make happy associations with strangers, arrivals, etc - give him setback from the door, 
tether or baby-gate him away from it [or hold his leash - the least-helpful of the choices], pair treats + games 
FROM U with visitors arriving, etc.

visitors can also reach into a bowl by the door, and casually toss a single treat for him to find... 
for some dogs, a deducted-portion of the daily kibble is fine; others need more high-value treats; 
grain-free MEAT-based cat-kibble is one easy option that does not spoil, at room temp.

for dogs who adore ball-games, the visitor can toss a ball ===> beyond the dog while they enter, giving him 
2 rewards: the ball to chase, AND added social-distance to reduce his stress... by the time he returns, 
the visitor is in the house, the transition is over, and he can be less upset + more receptive.

don't let strangers TOUCH him unless he solicits petting - sniffing their pantsleg is not an invitation to 
pat his head, bend over him, etc - pretend the dog is not there, :lol: until he gets over his initial qualms.

happy training, 
--- terry


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## MontyA (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks Terry. I did suspect it was an age thing. One thing I have asked people not to do when they come in is automatically go to try and stroke and hug him. Let him come to them. I will try the kibble- I think it will work because he is very food orientated!


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

Clare&Oscar said:


> How long does it take for the hormones to settle down after neutering?
> Oscar was neutered a couple of months ago at about 18months old and he seems to be really jumpy now, he will growl and bark at the slightest noise.
> 
> The most worrying thing is he seems to now be fearful of people, he is fine if they have a dog as he's more interested in playing with them but if there is no dog he will start to growl and bark at them - it sounds really aggressive and I'm not sure if he would bite them or not. This is scaring me now as he started to growl and bark (it's a proper growl not just a grumble) at several people on our walks including a young boy and I don't know what to do.
> ...


Ahhh poor Oscar Did it happen straight after he'd been for his op or some time after? Maybe he had a traumatic time at the vets?


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

MontyA said:


> Hi, sorry I'm not able to help, but wanted to say I'm going through something similar, but for different reasons. Monty is only 8 months and hasn't been neutered, but has also developed this fear, and barks whenever someone comes into the house.
> 
> It's been suggested I distract him, which I'm definitely going to try. He loves food, so I think it will be quite easy to do.
> 
> Good luck - hope you get the answers you need soon.


Are you sure its fear and not just protective/guarding behaviour? Or maybe even excitement?
My dog barks whenever someone comes to the door and sometimes when they walk by the house/car. But when we do have a stranger in he doesn't attack them or anything so we don't really mind too much. 
It keeps the salesmen away


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WoodyGSP said:


> Are you sure its fear and not just protective/guarding behaviour?


all too often, WG, i see spooky-reactions being re-labeled by owners as *protective*, which sounds flattering - 
but if there is no real threat, there is no protecting going on.  IMO, at least.

a former-client had a GSD-pup who was somewhat soft at 8-WO, and i suggested more supportive-socialization: 
meet more ppl, keep it happy, make sure he is under-threshold, etc. 
INSTEAD the M-owner kept him at home more, and by the time i was called at 6-MO, the puppy had been growling 
at visitors to the door since 10-WO - that is not normal behavior, from a pre-pubertal pup toward friendly 
strangers, *but her husband assured her this was protective behavior.*

if the dog has no good, valid reason to be suspicious - a weapon, threatening behavior, angry, 
and so forth - then the barking-dog is uncertain; uncertain dogs alarm-bark, and continue to bark. 
*confident dogs are usually quiet, or give a few alert-barks and subside.* 
there are also excitable-idiot barkers, who bark for sheer zest - these are apparent by their body-parl.

JMO + IME, 
--- terry


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## WoodyGSP (Oct 11, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> all too often, WG, i see spooky-reactions being re-labeled by owners as *protective*, which sounds flattering -
> but if there is no real threat, there is no protecting going on.  IMO, at least.
> 
> a former-client had a GSD-pup who was somewhat soft at 8-WO, and i suggested more supportive-socialization:
> ...


 Thanks, but Woody's definately not fearful. He's just a loon. If anyone did break in he'd probably lick them to death.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WoodyGSP said:


> Thanks, but Woody's definately not fearful. He's just a loon. If anyone did break in he'd probably lick them to death.


i wasn't referring to Woody, but to the original-poster on this thread  
cheers, hun, 
- t


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## Clare&Oscar (Aug 15, 2009)

He is not at all fearful when we have visitors he is rather too full on if anything, even with delivery men so we have a lead attached to the banister so I can have my hands free for signing for parcels etc.

He goes loopy with excitement when we have visitors so it only seems to be when we are out and we meet someone without a dog that he gets fearful (I think it's fear as he jumps back when they make a move). He does embarrass me regularly at the vets as he will growl and bark at him and won't go into the treatment room.

I only wondered about the neutering affecting his behaviour because the same happened with our previous GSP and he wasn't neutered until he was 8yo (prostate problems).

Oscar did have a few moments when he was younger with barking/growling at strangers when out.

what was his behavior *before* desex?
bold, happy, interactive, loved ppl, pulled to meet them, enjoyed strangers petting him - *a big yes to these* 
solicited attn from strangers of any age or gender, no hesitation about loud kids, rude boys, grabby infants, elders with canes, ppl who look, sound, act or smell very-different from his usual encounters - *Oscar wasn't sure about this type of person, he had a small boy literally run up to him from behind which frightened him so he's never very sure about noisy and grabby strangers.*

He doesn't really see many people without dogs so I suppose he finds it a challenge when he does and I'm not sure how to react, I don't want to pull him away but he can lunge towards them and I don't want him to bite them. We are due to take him to the New Forest Show this week do you think more socialisation would help or will it make it worse?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Clare&Oscar said:


> He is not at all fearful when we have visitors he is rather too full on if anything,
> even with delivery men...
> we have a lead attached to the banister so I can have my hands free for signing for parcels etc.


ah-HA!  this is not a global-fear, he has specific triggers - 


Clare&Oscar said:


> He goes loopy with excitement when we have visitors...
> only seems to be when we are out and we meet someone without a dog that he gets fearful (I think it's fear
> as he jumps back when they make a move).


make a specific effort to have happy-things happen when a dogless stranger is visible - begin as far away 
as his FIRST signs of concern, and go no closer til he relaxes - again, *Click To Calm* is my safe ref for B-Mod. 


Clare&Oscar said:


> He does embarrass me regularly at the vets as he will growl and bark at him and won't go into the treatment room.


 then DS/CC at the vets is the next or simultaneous training venue: walk in, offer a treat, walk out. 
walk in, say hello to the nice receptionist, walk out. 
walk in, sit for 5-secs, TREAT, walk out... ad infinitum, *while he does Not Need the vet, * these are cookie-visits, 
and a string of them as a puppy till 12-Mos would have made a huge difference, IMO - 
he needs happy-experiences that OUTNUMBER the scary-ones to counterbalance them. 
[again, this is straight DS/CC as found in Click to Calm.] if he is capable of interest in food, he is OK - 
if he is too stressed to take a treat, get outta Dodge. U may need to work in the parking-lot, walk to the clinic-mailbox, 
go halfway up the path + reverse... it is all on HIS terms + HIS level of anxiety  


Clare&Oscar said:


> ...no hesitation about loud kids, rude boys, grabby infants, elders with canes, ppl who look, sound, act or smell very-different from his usual encounters...[terry]
> *Oscar wasn't sure about this type of person, he had a small boy literally run up to him from behind which frightened him so he's never very sure about noisy and grabby strangers.*


so be noisy - Urself - a little at a time, and work up to grabbing his collar, grabbing his ear [gently], 
its all a game, make it as loud + crazy as U like *over time - * with tug-toys, treats, throw a toy 
for him to pursue between grabs, etc. 


Clare&Oscar said:


> We are due to take him to the New Forest Show this week do you think more socialisation would help or will it make it worse?


_*calmatives! *_ i would load him up with DAP pump-spray + renew it every 90-mins 
[set a travel-alarm U can keep in a pocket], 5-drops of liquid Rescue-Remedy 15-mins before departure 
and every 90-mins thereafter delivered direct to his flews as a precursor to a SUPER treat, 
or ON one treat - drip it onto something absorbent, a single kibble, etc.

i would start using calmatives Now to get a baseline on him - it is described here - 
Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - dog body-language - and why it matters so much... 
5 drops AM + PM on an empty-stomach, DAP pump-spray before every walk, car-trip or other excursion 
10 to 15-mins before departure on his collar - remove, spritz, return - and on the LEASH a handslength 
from the clip, Just Before clipping it on his collar.

pump-spray botanical lavender water on Ur clothing can be another medium for exuding calm - 
associating it NOW with going to sleep routines at night would be perfect, that's a week of relaxed associations.  
_*Alteya from Bulgaria*_ is my recommendation for quality - 
it's certified-organic, no additives or preservatives; i would suggest the frig, once the bottle is open. 
STD Disclaimer: 
i get not one dime or any other consideration from any name-brand i specify; i use em, i like em, i recommend em.

good luck at the show, hun! :thumbup: let us know how it goes, meanwhile... 
-- terry


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## Clare&Oscar (Aug 15, 2009)

Oscar was great at the New Forest Show (apart from the usual pulling on the lead), no sign of aggression to anyone at all and there were lots of people about. The only time he was a bit unsure was when some kid decided to shoot at him with a noisy toy gun and he was a bit frightened by it.

I'm sure it's just that he's not sure what to do with people when they are coming towards him or me especially if they are running and waving their arms about. He barks and lunges then backs off and repeats but I have been trying to give him treats when children are approaching.

My OH and I are typically English I'm afraid and a bit reserved so we don't shout and wave around like loonies ourselves so Oscar isn't used to it. I think he just needs to get used to people coming towards him so we will take him to some more shows to get him socialised, I'm sure it's our fault, initially he was so bouncy and always jumping up at people we've either avoided meeting people or dragged him away when we have met anyone.


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