# Rise in bully dogs making small dog walking too dangerous in Edinburgh



## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Can anyone recommend a safe park for small dogs in Edinburgh? In the past few days I witnessed a poor little King Charles Spaniel mauled by vicious Staffies a Westie was then savaged by an Akita and I am afraid to let my Chihuahuas off their lead as they have been lurched at so many times by Staffies. The situation is getting ridiculous, in the city centre we are restricted on dog walking spaces as it is, let alone all the small dogs having to be so restricted now because of the never ending increase in these dog aggressive breeds.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

I know how you feel as I have two small dogs too and I am always wary of off lead dogs that we don't know.
Not all staffies are small dog killers, usually it's the owners that haven't bothered to put the time in to train them and it gives all staffie owners a bad name. There are some members on here who have lovely staffies, not that I've ever met them though.
Sorry I can't help you with your question as I don't live in Edinburgh.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Surely your title should read "Rise in idiot OWNERS that can't control their dogs (no matter what breed) making dog walking too dangerous"!
Just a quick heads up, most of us like bullies here and see them for the awesome dogs that they are, if you see an out of control dog then you need to report that to the dog warden or police and then move on NOT tarnish a whole breed due to some small minded (and small other body appendages too) twits


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I would recommend seeking out parks where there are more responsible owners - not parks without large or bully breeds are - The attitude of treating other dogs as aggressive based on breed is very judgemental and damaging and no doubt makes your dog more wary of other dogs too which can have a detriment effect on their behaviours

Breedist attitudes are entirely unhelpful


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Owning large dogs myself I can understand why they make some other owners anxious but I find dogs of all shapes and sizes can be nasty/aggressive just as all shapes and sizes can be nervous or friendly. My previous rottie was attacked repeatedly by a JRT but I don't avoid all JRTs as a result. The particular JRT I am referring to had a very irresponsible owner who was not prepared to muzzle or leash his dog and thought we should just let them fight it out so my dog could teach his a lesson. We stopped walking in the area he walked which was a pain but better than having my dog repeatedly jumped on.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

As a large breed owner myself, I get prejudice a lot from other dog owners in the park. Don't assume it's the breed or even the dog, it's the owner. My Ruby wouldn't hurt a fly and what I love is when people ask me if she's okay and I get to tell them how lovely she is, today she met a pair of Yorkies, she was very polite.

It's the owners you need to blame, even in a small dog park, your dog could get hurt with an irresponsible owner at the other end of the lead.

I suggest getting to know the other owners, get to know their dogs.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I know how you feel and TBH I just do alot of pavement walking with my lot! Its not breedist to be more concerned about big dogs though. If 2 small dogs fight they could be injured but you would have time to seperate them and the injuries would be more likely to be manageable. If a 60Ib dog grabs and shakes your 6Ib dog it could be game over in seconds.
If your area is becoming very unsafe then you could always walks yours on flexis or shorter leads in less suitable areas (meaning parks/grassy areas where it would be dangerous to have dogs off lead due to traffic nearby). I do this with one of mine who is dog aggressive, we use a long line and walk on a huge grass verge next to a busy road.


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

Whereabouts in Edinburgh are you? I can't (off hand) think of any great places to walk them in the city centre anyway. We usually walked them mainly out of town when I lived there. There are lots of green spaces/parks throughout the city, but my experiences are pretty out of date regarding amount/behaviour of dogs in them.

In my experience the only problem I ever had was with the out of control dog that lived along the landing for us - never any real issues when out walking around Tollcross/Bruntsfield areas (mind you, we didn't have small dogs - BC then and have giants now)

As others have said, I think the problem is the attitude of other owners rather than the amount of staffies present in a dog walking area. If you are restricted to sharing a walking space with out of control, offlead dogs, then keeping yours on a lead and close by is a way of keeping them safer, also, as mentioned above reporting any dogs that are dangerously out of control. 

I now have giant breeds, and can see why small dogs/their owners may be apprehensive about them approaching, although in my personal experience it has, without fail, been the smaller dogs that have been aggressive to my lot, and usually without any reply from them (although they are now starting to step in to protect their brothers if they see anyone threatening them!)


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

To all the owners of large, aggressive breeds here, it is easy for you to say all this because you don't own small dogs that are so defenceless and can end up suffering a terrible death or extensive surgeries, painful recovery and permanent trauma from the damage inflicted by a Staffordshire or similar breed. Yes, small dogs can be aggressive but this is not relevant since the harm they are capable of doing is not severe. When you have a small dog that you cherish and are responsible for then this is very stressful. The fact is that Staffies and there cross breeds are constantly involved in many of the nastiest incidents, it is not being breed prejudiced to say this, it is a fact, further substantiated with the behaviour I have personally witnessed of them brutally savaging small dogs and lunging at mine unprovoked. I am not projecting anything onto my dogs, they are wary because of what they have experienced. Small dogs need exercise too and deserve to be able to enjoy the public parks without fear of being ripped apart because of the presence of breeds which were never intended to be domestic pets. Yes, a lot of it is down to the owners and there has to be more regulation for the sake of the public and the dogs about who should be allowed to own such dogs and what provisions are necessary to protect small dogs and kids from them. But the breeds do have a predisposition to aggression and there size and power makes this dangerous. The Akita that tore a little Westies throat open had a responsible owner who exercised it on a lead and in a separate area of the park from the other dogs, but it broke away from him.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I feel you are hugely misinformed in regards to 'aggressive' breeds and the injuries that small dogs can cause.....

Large breed owners love and cherish their dogs too you know...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I have owned small dogs before, they can do as much damage as any dog.
You may wish to educate yourself on bull breeds for a start (the daily mail is not a good resource for this)...my dog is not an "aggressive breed" in fact NO breed is an "aggressive breed"

To say that Bull breeds were not meant to be domestic pets is ridiculous at best 
It's quite ironic really...my dog is dog reactive due to being attacked by several small dogs!


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## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> To all the owners of large, aggressive breeds here, it is easy for you to say all this because you don't own small dogs that are so defenceless and can end up suffering a terrible death or extensive surgeries, painful recovery and permanent trauma from the damage inflicted by a Staffordshire or similar breed. Yes, small dogs can be aggressive but this is not relevant since the harm they are capable of doing is not severe. When you have a small dog that you cherish and are responsible for then this is very stressful. The fact is that Staffies and there cross breeds are constantly involved in many of the nastiest incidents, it is not being breed prejudiced to say this, it is a fact, further substantiated with the behaviour I have personally witnessed of them brutally savaging small dogs and lunging at mine unprovoked. I am not projecting anything onto my dogs, they are wary because of what they have experienced. Small dogs need exercise too and deserve to be able to enjoy the public parks without fear of being ripped apart because of the presence of breeds which were never intended to be domestic pets. Yes, a lot of it is down to the owners and there has to be more regulation for the sake of the public and the dogs about who should be allowed to own such dogs and what provisions are necessary to protect small dogs and kids from them. But the breeds do have a predisposition to aggression and there size and power makes this dangerous. The Akita that tore a little Westies throat open had a responsible owner who exercised it on a lead and in a separate area of the park from the other dogs, but it broke away from him.


Many of us have owned a variety of different breeds or have plenty of experience of them. I think it's very unfair to make such a sweeping statement. I have owned a bull mastiff x staffy and a small jack Russell cross in one go. The bull cross was the softest dog ever and would be very gentle with all creatures. I also had a Yorkie pup that used to play with a wolfhound cross that could have killed him just in play really. She used to lie on her side for him even when he got towards a year old and play by nudging him and moving her legs about. All interactions between the two were very closely supervised. I've also walked probably upwards of 100 bull breeds over the years and haven't met a dog aggressive one yet. 
To be fair I would be very careful always with who my dogs interacted with whatever the breed. Don't tar everyone/dog with the same brush just because you've met a couple of idiots.

ETA, it's not a fact that bull breeds are involved in the nastiest attacks all the time either. Funnily enough I read a study years ago that a breed that is illegal in the uk (pitbull)passed more temperament tests than golden retrievers a well know good all rounder breed. I will try find the link to the research later if it's still available


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

I am not misinformed, I am a small dog owner that has to deal with the threats and consequences of the large aggressive breeds everyday and I'm sick of it. To claim that a Chihuahua could inflict injuries comparative to a large, aggressive breed is what is misinformed. FACT that Bulls were bred for any other purpose than as working dogs with their aggression having purpose is delusional, I have witnessed 1st hand the horror of the tragedies small dog owners have to contend with. I did not hallucinate 3 Staffies tearing a little King Charles Spaniel apart or the many other terrible fates that have recently met small dogs my dogs played with, I wish it had been a figment of my imagination rather than the agony suffered by those poor little dogs. I understand owners that cherish their large breed dogs, but have some consideration for how it affects the small dog owners and how different the risks are for us in it.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Where do you live that you are being threatened by dogs every day? Are you reporting these incidents to the relevant authorities?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

OK your here to just bash bull breeds..gotcha 
Have fun with your judgmental attitude


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm surrounded by bull breeds here usually owned by chavs. My dog's not particularly tiny but there are many many yorkies around here. Never heard of a savage attack. It's the owners that are dangerous not the dogs.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

The biggest biters are small breeds! Pomeranians, Dachshunds and Chihuahuas, they are not as innocent as you may think!

It's not easy for us to say when we're getting prejudged! I am sick to death of people thinking Ruby would eat their dog! She loves socialising and it's so horrible to see her getting rejected by these people. I have cats and she is so good with them. You have no idea how each individual dog is so stop judging. We love our dogs equally, even if there's more to love.


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

Well the best thing you can do is find some quiet back street walks and the best way to do that is ask other local dog walkers you meet out and about.
Im sick of being barked at and chased by little dogs as I was today, with my cocker and staffie. The little thing was no bigger than a rabbit and it chased us barking for a good 5 minutes and the owners didn't really do anything about it. So its not just big dogs that can be a pain in the backside.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Yes, myself and the other owners have been reporting. The King Charles incident was reported to the police but I think they were unable to trace the dogs as the owner ran off when the small dog was rushed to the vet. The Westie incident was reported to the police too and I believe the Akita responsible is now being destroyed. I am in Edinburgh city centre and Harrison Park has been one of the worst areas along with several of the outlying parks. I am asking our council to explore the American system of having segregated small and large dog areas.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Like I said, the difference is if a small dog nips yours it won't kill it like yours could mine.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Like I said, the difference is if a small dog nips yours it won't kill it like yours could mine.


No, but your dog could be more likely to bite than my dog, depending on how you train/if you've trained them.

Makes no difference about the size! It's irresponsible owners you should be mad at.

We have a small dog living next door, yaps and growls for hours. If she attacked Ruby, Ruby wouldn't fight back, then my dog would get seriously hurt. Did you think about that?


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Like I said, the difference is if a small dog nips yours it won't kill it like yours could mine.


Why should it be acceptable for any dog to bite? the size of the dog is absolutely irrelevant! Small dogs who are reactive should be kept on leads, not allowed to terrorise other dogs and get away with it because they are small.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Like I said, the difference is if a small dog nips yours it won't kill it like yours could mine.


No, the difference is I would not put my dog into a situation where he needs to use his teeth 
Those small dogs may not have killed him, but they sure as hell damaged his mental state...

If you are worried that your dog may be hurt by big dogs then don't walk her/him in an area where there are off leash big dogs. Either change the location of your walks or change the times..

I avoid dog parks like the plague as they are not great places for dogs, as most are left to just get on with things which is when things escalate...We find more secluded walks or we pavement pound, it's not fair that we get shoved out due to irresponsible owners but it is much less stressful for both myself and my dog.


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## LouLatch (Jul 2, 2012)

Small dog or big dog if it bites one of mine I will not be happy. My cocker has had his nose ripped open many times and it was all JRT that made him bleed. My neighbours Chihuahuas tried to bite my staffie once but luckily the owner quickly scooped them up before they touched her. Size or breed is irrelevant if it is aggressive its aggressive! And biting other dogs is not acceptable!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Yes, small dogs can be aggressive but this is not relevant since the harm they are capable of doing is not severe.


Actually small dogs can do serious damage, esp to dogs with thinner fur like sighthounds. Not to mention the pyschological damage that can be done to another dog if they are already fearful of strange dogs, that applies to anything from a yorkie to a great dane!
Also Staffies are generally lovely dogs and IME are actually very laid back with other dogs. The problem is that easy availability and low cost means that they are the most popular breed with the least responsible section of owners.

I understand how easy it is to be nervous around other dogs though. esp if you have teeny dogs. I have Chihuahuas and chi crosses and I dont even let them play with anything bigger then a westie anymore (not since Adam limped for several months after a collie accidently trampled him in play).


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

My dogs are trained not to bite other dogs and never do, That doesn't stop them being lurched at by the Staffies. The King Charles that was mauled was a lovely sociable dog as was the Westie.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Don't fool yourself into thinking your dogs will never bite...they are dogs, they have teeth, ergo they have the potential to bite given the right (?) situation.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

To be clear as well I am not condoning small dogs behaving badly either, I put a lot of effort into socializing my Chihuahuas and dealing with their snappy, yappy tendencies. All I'm saying is the consequences are very different when breeds like Staffies are involved.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I am not misinformed, I am a small dog owner that has to deal with the threats and consequences of the large aggressive breeds everyday and I'm sick of it. To claim that a Chihuahua could inflict injuries comparative to a large, aggressive breed is what is misinformed. FACT that Bulls were bred for any other purpose than as working dogs with their aggression having purpose is delusional, I have witnessed 1st hand the horror of the tragedies small dog owners have to contend with. I did not hallucinate 3 Staffies tearing a little King Charles Spaniel apart or the many other terrible fates that have recently met small dogs my dogs played with, I wish it had been a figment of my imagination rather than the agony suffered by those poor little dogs. I understand owners that cherish their large breed dogs, but have some consideration for how it affects the small dog owners and how different the risks are for us in it.


The point being, which you seem unable to comprehend, is that it's NOT the dogs themselves that are many more aggressive than any other breed. You seem only focused on the dogs themselves being at fault.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Like I said, the difference is if a small dog nips yours it won't kill it like yours could mine.


Did you hear about the JRT that killed a newborn baby some years back?

Small breeds can, and do, cause serious injuries.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I spend a lot of time socialising and training my boy too...maybe I shouldn't bother if he was never supposed to be a pet in the first place


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> To be clear as well I am not condoning small dogs behaving badly either, I put a lot of effort into socializing my Chihuahuas and dealing with their snappy, yappy tendencies. All I'm saying is the consequences are very different when breeds like Staffies are involved.


Its got nothing to do with the breed of dog, don't start breed bashing when your only experience is negative. I've owned several staffies even one who was dog aggressive. He was kept constantly on a lead and it was inconsiderate owners who let their dog charge up to mine who caused all the problems.

Were these staffies you have met on lead?


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

In the incident with the King Charles 2 staffies were on leads and the 3rd was loose, the staffies went for the King Charles and one of the men with them failed to restrain it while the other couldn't control the 2 on the leads, they were pulling him across the park. The ones who have unprovoked lunged at my dogs were on leads with their owners laughing and saying "don't eat it" about my Chihuahuas.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

RottieRubysMum said:


> The biggest biters are small breeds! Pomeranians, Dachshunds and Chihuahuas, they are not as innocent as you may think!


I think you'll find its Dachshunds, Chihuahuas and JRTs, in that order!
Please try not to respond with a character assasination of small breeds as its just as upsetting to us dinky dog owners as the 'devil dog' garbage is to bully owners (I mean everybody tho, not just you RRM!). Personally I dont think there is any kind of bad dog or owner behaviour I have experienced that hasnt been the same for large and small breeds. Only exception are the giant breeds, where Im assuming bad behaviour would be Godzilla on the rampage!!LOL

(also abit suspicious of anyone that joined today and posted inflammatory threads, given the recent trolling activity....)


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Can anyone recommend a safe park for small dogs in Edinburgh?


Taking aside all the issues about staffies/bull-breeds Akitas all being dangerous.....

... in answer to your original question. I grew up not far from where you are. 10+ years of walking border collies around the streets of Bruntsfield, Bruntsfield Links, the Meadows, etc. Along the Union Canal. All safe and no dog-dog attacks (people-people attacks after dark are another matter in places like the Meadows; but the dogs were always safe!)

I'd recommend also the Braid Hills, Craiglockhart Hill/Woods, The Hermitage - several of which I've been to recently and again - no aggressive/vicious dogs were seen. I know my sister's two regularly walk around some of these areas and haven't had any issues.

I can't comment on Harrison Park itself as I've never been to it, but these others mentioned are all in the same vicinity


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

If these dogs are on lead then it is your fault for allowing your presumably off lead dog to approach them.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> In the incident with the King Charles 2 staffies were on leads and the 3rd was loose, the staffies went for the King Charles and one of the men with them failed to restrain it while the other couldn't control the 2 on the leads, they were pulling him across the park. The ones who have unprovoked lunged at my dogs were on leads with their owners laughing and saying "don't eat it" about my Chihuahuas.


That's clearly irresponsible owners!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Just a little video showing Staffies mixing at the park with other dogs  Note that even while being pestered by the Pug/Boston mix? the Staff shows no signs of aggression and is incredibly tolerant. Just to show that they're not all what you're making them out to be OP.


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## Tyton (Mar 9, 2013)

catz4m8z said:


> Only exception are the giant breeds, where I'm assuming bad behaviour would be Godzilla on the rampage!!LOL


It doesn't even need to be *bad* behaviour from my four to be like Godzilla on the rampage - 200kg of perfectly friendly dog racing up to a little one (or human!) is prone to destruction. Which is why they aren't allowed to! Approach calmly one at a time,* if, *and only if, the other owner is ok with it.

As everyone on here keeps saying - it's the anti-social owners that won't/can't control their dogs that are the issue. I've listed a few alternative options for OP to try walking that are less likely to be overrun with unsocialised dogs, but don't know that's the main issue on here anymore.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Are you sure when they 'lunge' there is any intent to hurt your dogs? Sometimes dogs pull or bark out of excitement/wanting to play. My small dog has been ragged by a larger dog and my tiny Yorkie would have been seriously injured if not killed in the same incident and so I understand your concern. However, I do think serious incidents are rare. I'd look at reading dog language and blocking other dogs if you're not sure.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

FYI my dogs were on the lead when the Staffies lunged. We were just walking down the street.

Thanks for the suggestions on Edinburgh, I grew up here and had a little Jack Russell then that I could walk safely. What has changed lately is the constant increase of the bully breeds. I have walked the dogs in the braidburn where it generally is OK but that's where the recent Akita incident was and there is also a white trash idiot girl with a Rottweiler on a fragile diamante lead. I will try the Hermitage.

And no I am not troll. Just a concerned small dog owner who felt compelled to write this post because of how many horrible incidents there have been lately.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Woah tiger....

Let's put this into perspective. Fatal dog attacks are rare. In fact they are extremely rare given the many millions of dogs in this country. Incidents can and do occur, but I dare say a lot could be avoided by using common sense. Bullbreeds are not solely responsible for these attack.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> FYI my dogs were on the lead when the Staffies lunged. We were just walking down the street.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions on Edinburgh, I grew up here and had a little Jack Russell then that I could walk safely. *What has changed lately is the constant increase of the bully breeds.* I have walked the dogs in the braidburn where it generally is OK but that's where the recent Akita incident was and there is also a white trash idiot girl with a Rottweiler on a fragile diamante lead. I will try the Hermitage.
> 
> And no I am not troll. Just a concerned small dog owner who felt compelled to write this post because of how many horrible incidents there have been lately.


Don't judge before you get to know them, for all you know the increase of Staffies is because of an increase in adopting in your local area. Especially since the Manchester Dogs Home fire, people have felt more compelled to adopt. And the rescues are overflowing with Staffies.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Usually for a tiny Chihuahua attacks are sadly fatal. Even the attacks that are not are dire such as the Westie who was savaged by the Akita and required 7hrs of surgery and will never be the same.

Anyways, breed arguments aside, my point is something has to be done, not only for the sake of the small dogs, but also the reputation of the large breeds that many on here want to protect. I honestly am no Daily Mail reader, I'm not basing my concerns on sensational devil dog articles, it truly is the experience I have had while trying to walk my little dogs and how this has gone from what should be a nice activity to being so stressful and uncomfortable.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Yes, that may be right, the Edinburgh Cat & Dog home and all the other dog rescues here are overloaded with Staffies too.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

White trash idiot girl?

Ok then....


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

What is the politically correct description for a girl in a bad tracksuit, top knot, cheap cider in one hand, *** in the other, a baby and a Rottweiler on a totally impractical diamante lead that would barely restrain a Chi???


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

A 


Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> What is the politically correct description for a girl in a bad tracksuit, top knot, cheap cider in one hand, *** in the other, a baby and a Rottweiler on a totally impractical diamante lead that would barely restrain a Chi???


A woman????


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> What is the politically correct description for a girl in a bad tracksuit, top knot, cheap cider in one hand, *** in the other, a baby and a Rottweiler on a totally impractical diamante lead that would barely restrain a Chi???


That would be irresponsible owner.
What she is wearing is of little relevance to anything!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> What is the politically correct description for a girl in a bad tracksuit, top knot, cheap cider in one hand, *** in the other, a baby and a Rottweiler on a totally impractical diamante lead that would barely restrain a Chi???


Well haven't you just hit every stereotype in one go there!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Whatever the description, I'm sure everyone with a small dog can identify with their dog being vulnerable in those circumstances. But like I said, the owner of the Akita was responsible and even still the dog was able to brutally attack a Westie.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> What is the politically correct description for a girl in a bad tracksuit, top knot, cheap cider in one hand, *** in the other, a baby and a Rottweiler on a totally impractical diamante lead that would barely restrain a Chi???


Judging by the amount of stuff she's apparently holding, I'd say an octopus, or possibly the Hindu Goddess Durga?


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## spots (Aug 10, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Like I said, the difference is if a small dog nips yours it won't kill it like yours could mine.


This is telling. 
Dog bites are NEVER acceptable regardless of the breeds and sizes involved. 
My medium breed dog has been attacked by chihuahuas twice now. She paid them no attention but they ran over barking and bit her legs. 
The owners LAUGHED. Apparently this is amusing because of the size difference.

You say a bite from a small dog can't cause damage to a big dog. 
How about the mental damage? How do you think she's going to feel next time she sees those dogs ... Or even a dog that looks similar. Defensive at the very least.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

That would be funny if it wasn't true that she was juggling so much stuff she was in no position to control a Rottweiler.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> That would be funny if it wasn't true that she was juggling so much stuff she was in no position to control a Rottweiler.


Did the Rottweiler even seem out of control? This "Chav" you speak of may be an excellent trainer? Who knows!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

On the flip side of the coin, there's at least 1, maybe 2 staffies here who are walked offlead around mine and have never shown any interest in them - far more interested in the half-tree they're carrying home,  or in the owner to even notice there are other dogs in the vicinity. Irresponsibility comes in all shapes and sizes and these dogs should be on a lead - not because they're dangerous, but for their own protection from judgemental small dog owners, and of course, from the roads. 

However, there's a certain JRT x here that, if I know is out in the garden, or loose on the street without supervision  before I take the dogs out, we stay in until it's secured, and at least 3 times a week we have to cross the road to try to appease the territorial Westy that runs the length of the garden wall, barking her head off because we have the temerity to be passing.

I remember talking to a staffy owner in the local park. I'd stopped and leashed my dogs up and the other owner did the same. As we passed I explained that his dog wasn't the problem - mine was, and he said he'd experienced people even crossing the road to avoid his dog. 

OP, if you're not the troll, you really do need to educate yourself. How would you like to be judged based on the colour of your skin, your weight, your gender, your age, etc? Not all staffies are dog aggressive - it's idiotic owners who are to blame. 

Learn to point the blame finger where it belongs - the owner, not the dog/s.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

I never said it was acceptable for small dogs to bite. I merely pointed out the difference in consequence if they do. Mental damage is not the same as a small dog fatally torn to pieces. I have never allowed my Chis to bite, they would be disciplined if they did with my profuse apologies to the owner of whatever dog was involved. I do not think Chis behaving badly are cute.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

An elderly Staffie bitch we used to regularly walk with was actually a massive help in teaching my Missy that she could walk along peacefully with another dog as there was no pressure whatsoever from the Staff to engage in interaction with Missy. She plodded on her at her own pace, never approached other dogs, just did her own thing. She was loved dearly by her elderly owner.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

I am an owner of large guarding breeds as well as terriers. My biggest dog is 42.5kg and my smallest is just over 1lb. They live together in the house like any other family dog.

My largest dog has been repeatedly attacked, and continues to be a target for dogs (most likely due to the way she carries herself), by several breeds. Staffordshire Bull Terriers, Border Terriers, Border Collies, Labradors, Jack Russells, Greyhounds, Pekingese. The majority of dogs who have attacked her have been the smaller terriers. You're right; she wasn't critically injured and didn't require vet treatment. She did, however, require 2 years of hard training and confidence building so that she wouldn't be terrified every time an unfamiliar dog came into view. She was nearly 3 years old before she was confident enough to enjoy walks, and that was hard for me as well as her. I put a lot of effort into this dog early on. Her breeder put a lot of effort into the litter. I had massive plans for this dog that never got to be executed as one irresponsible dog handler after another allowed whatever dog it was that they owned to accost another dog who so happened to be mine.

My largest, most damaged and most advanced dog has been attacked countless times, for literally no legitimate reason. She's been charged at by dogs the other side of football fields. Dogs have scrambled out of gardens while we're walking by to react negatively to her. She's been bowled over and held down by her neck by a Staffordshire Bull Terrier/Boxer mix while doing a down-stay at a dog class. She's had a Border Terrier literally jump on her back from a high ridge alongside a road we were walking. She's the only dog I've ever had who hasn't fought back when confronted. She barks, and stands still. She air snaps, and if the dog doesn't go away and I, for some reason, can't block it (at the dog class for example -- I was about 25 paces away) she will try to come to me. My terriers and Shih Tzus and Poodle mixes and, yes, Chihuahuas, would all fight back. A Shih Tzu I had cost me just under two hundred pounds after he attacked one of my own dogs (who had stepped on him).

I was going to say "I can understand you being weary as some breeds are viewed as status symbols, and so get taken on by less than responsible handlers," but then I remembered that Chihuahuas are accessory dogs *in the media eye*, that snap and bite and don't like kids and live in Paris Hilton's handbag and get walked in strollers. Well done for being a responsible dog owner and training your dog. I am also a responsible dog owner. Every frequent member here is also a responsible dog owner, and you seem to expect praise for having Chihuahuas that don't bite while at the same time you slander breeds many of us adore because of the irresponsible owners you've encountered?

We've ALL experienced irresponsible owners. How do you even step out of your home if you think every large dog is going to maul you and your dogs? While I don't believe that every badly behaved dog is due to the handler's incompetence, I do believe that responsible owners will keep their dogs out of trouble, regardless of the breed or the behavioural issues the dogs may have. If you truly have a problem with the breeds instead of the irresponsible dog handlers, then I don't know how to proceed.

I hope you find your large-dog-free park in Edinburgh.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

I've found there's not a lot of difference between braidburn park and the hermitage other than the hermitage is more fun for my guys to go charging through the woods but you will often meet folks with staffies in the hermitage - Paris who is usually with a dog walker and often tries to murder Cuillin by playing with him till he runs up and throws himself at her feet then accidentally rolls off down the steep bit of hill until he hits a tree and stops, and the black and white bitch whose name escapes me, who has had to have her ball returned a few times because Angus has mugged her for it in an attempt to get her to chase him. It does seem to be the No 1 place in Edinburgh to walk in-season bitches off lead at busy times of day then be surprised when male dogs are interested though

I don't often walk places like Harrison park as I find them a bit boring and prefer wilder places for our walks but I'm surprised that there seems to be so many serious attacks happening without my having heard anything about it on the grapevine (I know a lot of dog owners, walkers and a few trainers as well as being on a few facebook groups where things are usually reported and discussed) The last 2 nasty attacks in the area I've heard about were caused by a mastiff type and a lurcher and both slightly down the coast but I heard about them from several different sources in the few days following the attacks

I haven't noticed any significant rise in the number of staffies around I have to say and the ones I usually meet out and about have all been nice enough dogs, the few who are not dog friendly have always been kept under control (as have a couple whose owners would like them to be more ferocious than they actually are. The only dogs we tend to have trouble with are border terriers (Some are fine with my two but some are not) a cocker spaniel that lives near my mum and a wee cavalier king Charles spaniel that goes for any bigger dogs it meets

Other places I often take my boys are, Blackford hill, the Braid hills, Craiglockhart, Bonaly (watch out for lambing ewes), Balerno (again sheep lambing just now), The Cammo estate down by Cramond. along the Almond between Cammo and Cramond, Cramond itself, Portobello, Musselburgh - watch out for the mud at low tide - totally ruined a pair of trainers there a couple of weeks ago, Longniddry bents, Yellowcraigs, Gullane bents.
I try to avoid anywhere too busy so only do the beach walks on weekdays when school's in and try to avoid meeting idiot owners but there are always going to be times when you look at the way another dog is acting/being allowed to act and just decide to call it quits and leave.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

mmmmm well can I say that I come across many, many more small dogs that are vicious and out of control / allowed to get away with things they shouldn't be than medium or big dogs!

No - not the dogs fault - absolutely the owners fault for letting their dogs behave in an unacceptable way and not training them.

So .... maybe you can suggest a dog friendly park in Edinburgh that doesn't allow or isn't frequented by small dogs please?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Usually for a tiny Chihuahua attacks are sadly fatal. Even the attacks that are not are dire such as the Westie who was savaged by the Akita and required 7hrs of surgery and will never be the same.
> 
> Anyways, breed arguments aside, my point is something has to be done, not only for the sake of the small dogs, but also the reputation of the large breeds that many on here want to protect. I honestly am no Daily Mail reader, I'm not basing my concerns on sensational devil dog articles, it truly is the experience I have had while trying to walk my little dogs and how this has gone from what should be a nice activity to being so stressful and uncomfortable.


It is sad you feel so stressful and uncomfortable walking your small dog. Personally I have a very small Yorkshire Terrier but rarely ever feel that way. On the small number of occasions I've had an 'off' feeling about certain dogs, I'll do a detour, or very occasionally pick up her. In fact the only times I've picked her up, the breeds have been either eyeballing Border Collies or Lurchers - not Bull breeds.

I guess the question you need to ask yourself is "what CAN I do do make myself feel more comfortable"? because it sounds as though you will not change your perception about certain dog breeds and their owners. That is your choice. You cannot however change the dogs people choose to own, irresponsible owners or the way others behave. So it's best just to focus on you and your own dog - aka what you can control.

It might mean altering your walking times (early mornings? etc) or finding alternative places to walk. Parks tend to be busy places so walking off the beaten track may work better for you. It also pays to look at the way you manage your dog to make it as stress free as possible; eg utilizing open spaces so you have a clear view of what is going on around you, paying attention to how much space you are giving other walkers, leashing your dog up as appropriate etc.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

speug said:


> I've found there's not a lot of difference between braidburn park and the hermitage other than the hermitage is more fun for my guys to go charging through the woods but you will often meet folks with staffies in the hermitage - Paris who is usually with a dog walker and often tries to murder Cuillin by playing with him till he runs up and throws himself at her feet then accidentally rolls off down the steep bit of hill until he hits a tree and stops, and the black and white bitch whose name escapes me, who has had to have her ball returned a few times because Angus has mugged her for it in an attempt to get her to chase him. It does seem to be the No 1 place in Edinburgh to walk in-season bitches off lead at busy times of day then be surprised when male dogs are interested though
> 
> I don't often walk places like Harrison park as I find them a bit boring and prefer wilder places for our walks but I'm surprised that there seems to be so many serious attacks happening without my having heard anything about it on the grapevine (I know a lot of dog owners, walkers and a few trainers as well as being on a few facebook groups where things are usually reported and discussed) The last 2 nasty attacks in the area I've heard about were caused by a mastiff type and a lurcher and both slightly down the coast but I heard about them from several different sources in the few days following the attacks
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this. It is good to know about the Hermitage, I will avoid it not only for the prevalence of Staffies but because my youngest Chi isn't old enough to be neutered yet so loves the girls. In Harrison Park I have not witnessed attacks, the atmosphere was just intimidating because of the amount of large and aggressive breeds like Staffies, Akitas and Huskies that are off leash. Myself and several other small dog owners felt very unsafe and left. We had our dogs on leads but the other dogs kept approaching. I think it's more luck than design that nothing bad has kicked off there. I live in the city centre and for sure there has been a big rise in the bully dogs. Even just walking to the shops tonight I went by 2 Staffies and an Akita.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

speug said:


> Other places I often take my boys are, Blackford hill, the Braid hills, Craiglockhart, Bonaly (watch out for lambing ewes), Balerno (again sheep lambing just now), The Cammo estate down by Cramond. along the Almond between Cammo and Cramond, Cramond itself, Portobello, Musselburgh - watch out for the mud at low tide - totally ruined a pair of trainers there a couple of weeks ago, Longniddry bents, Yellowcraigs, Gullane bents.
> I try to avoid anywhere too busy so only do the beach walks on weekdays when school's in and try to avoid meeting idiot owners but there are always going to be times when you look at the way another dog is acting/being allowed to act and just decide to call it quits and leave.


I'd totally avoid Yellowcraig / The Bents / John Muir Park etc at weekends from now until after Sept weekend unless it's very early morning (you need to be back at the car parks by 9:30 really). Days should be OK while the schools are in but again avoid during hol periods unless early. Unless it's raining of course! Had many a lovely walk at all the above on a lovely rainy day!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

labradrk said:


> It is sad you feel so stressful and uncomfortable walking your small dog. Personally I have a very small Yorkshire Terrier but rarely ever feel that way. On the small number of occasions I've had an 'off' feeling about certain dogs, I'll do a detour, or very occasionally pick up her. In fact the only times I've picked her up, the breeds have been either eyeballing Border Collies or Lurchers - not Bull breeds.
> 
> I guess the question you need to ask yourself is "what CAN I do do make myself feel more comfortable"? because it sounds as though you will not change your perception about certain dog breeds and their owners. That is your choice. You cannot however change the dogs people choose to own, irresponsible owners or the way others behave. So it's best just to focus on you and your own dog - aka what you can control.
> 
> It might mean altering your walking times (early mornings? etc) or finding alternative places to walk. Parks tend to be busy places so walking off the beaten track may work better for you. It also pays to look at the way you manage your dog to make it as stress free as possible; eg utilizing open spaces so you have a clear view of what is going on around you, paying attention to how much space you are giving other walkers, leashing your dog up as appropriate etc.


I think it's great you feel that way about your Yorkie and please don't think I'm being neurotic about my Chis. I was fine about having them off their leads and they had a lot of good experiences with larger dogs like Labs, Retrievers, Poodles and Spaniels which helped socialize them. But then with what happened to the other small dogs being viciously attacked that they walked with, what I witnessed with the Staffies so disturbingly attacking the King Charles and lurching at mine, I've just been spooked. I adore my dogs and I'm responsible for protecting them so it's left me being more observant, vigilant and worried about their safety.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Like I said, a small dog won't kill yours.


I only reached the above post before I lost patience and sensed something was a little.....off.

However, in response to your quote, I own two giants and your wee Chi could kill the biggest of my dogs with ease.

Especially if it got stuck in his throat.

It could bloody well choke him to death.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lilylass said:


> mmmmm well can I say that I come across many, many more small dogs that are vicious and out of control / allowed to get away with things they shouldn't be than medium or big dogs!
> 
> No - not the dogs fault - absolutely the owners fault for letting their dogs behave in an unacceptable way and not training them.
> 
> So .... maybe you can suggest a dog friendly park in Edinburgh that doesn't allow or isn't frequented by small dogs please?


I think we should have a segregated system like the US where parks have large dog areas and small dog areas. Would avoid a lot of problems in size. It's not even all about large breeds being aggressive, many small dogs have ended up dead or injured simply by the size difference when it comes to how dogs play.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Zaros said:


> I only reached the above post before I lost patience and sensed something was a little.....off.
> 
> However, in response to your quote, I own two giants and your wee Chi could kill the biggest of my dogs with ease.
> 
> ...


It is this sickening attitude and treating someone else's loved little dog like a snack for yours that makes me think your giants are either a pathetic penis extension or compensating for some other inadequacy. I do hope your throat doesn't end up getting choked in the jaw locks of your giants.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

That was hilarious, Zaros.

Gizmo&CujotheChis, and it is exactly YOUR sickening attitude that leads to the decline of perfectly good dog breeds.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Troll back again?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Troll back again?


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

dogsaintdumb said:


> That was hilarious, Zaros.
> 
> Gizmo&CujotheChis, and it is exactly YOUR sickening attitude that leads to the decline of perfectly good dog breeds.


So in denial, it is the incidents involving specific breeds that are so notorious they generate media that leads to the decline of the breed plus retarded owners like you who show off and take warped glee in how your dogs could slaughter mine.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh so huskies are another aggressive breed 

Again, there is no such thing as an aggressive breed...of course there are individual does that show aggression, but that doesn't make the breed aggressive...

I fear that you will still be complaining even if you get your small dog park, there are just as many irresponsible small dog owners as there are large.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Troll back again?


Is that the conspiracy theory you cite whenever anyone doesn't embrace Staffies?!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Oh so huskies are another aggressive breed
> 
> Again, there is no such thing as an aggressive breed...of course there are individual does that show aggression, but that doesn't make the breed aggressive...
> 
> I fear that you will still be complaining even if you get your small dog park, there are just as many irresponsible small dog owners as there are large.


Maybe, but it's a much fairer playing field


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> So in denial, it is the incidents involving specific breeds that are so notorious they generate media that leads to the decline of the breed plus retarded owners like you who show off and take warped glee in how your dogs could slaughter mine.


Oh dear me....

I fear it is too late for this Daily Fail reader, some we can save, some are just too far gone 
We should have a moment of silence to remember our friend


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> So in denial, it is the incidents involving specific breeds that are so notorious they generate media that leads to the decline of the breed plus retarded owners like you who show off and take warped glee in how your dogs could slaughter mine.


Actually, it's believing in the media bull that has led to their bad rep.

That's not the case at all! Take a joke! You've not paid attention to a word we've said/posted. It's a bit of light relief when you're talking to a wall.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Disgraceful. I'm not entirely convinced this is the resident troll. I preferred him.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> It is this sickening attitude and treating someone else's loved little dog like a snack for yours that makes me think your giants are either a pathetic penis extension or compensating for some other inadequacy. I do hope your throat doesn't end up getting choked in the jaw locks of your giants.




Well, your post above confirms my suspicions quite soundly.

You did come here to cause trouble.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

dogsaintdumb said:


> Disgraceful. I'm not entirely convinced this is the resident troll. I preferred him.


I don't think it is either. Different writing style and our resident troll wasn't good enough to change style well enough lol


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Oh dear me....
> 
> I fear it is too late for this Daily Fail reader, some we can save, some are just too far gone
> We should have a moment of silence to remember our friend


I'm actually a Guardian reader, but regardless, are you claiming all the stories of kids being killed or severely mauled by Staffies and other such breeds are just fictional tales invented like Urban Legends??? Please find evidence of damage like this being done by a Chi.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

If you are that worried about your perfectly behaved tiny dogs clearly the only sort meant to be a pet - oh btw Google nanny dogs, then put some effort in and find somewhere to walk the bloody things safely, get in the car, on a bus, walk at irregular times. Many many bullbreed owners already do this to avoid the likes of you!!!


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

On a lighter and unrelated note, I really like your new avatar Thai.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

No, I came here to ask advice on places to safely walk my dogs in Edinburgh. Some people kindly answered that with helpful suggestions. I then merely defended myself against the others by trying to explain the perspective of someone with small and vulnerable dogs.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

And we merely defended our dogs against you...


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Would avoid a lot of problems in size. It's not even all about large breeds being aggressive, many small dogs have ended up dead or injured simply by the size difference when it comes to how dogs play.


Entirely incorrect .... my old Lab had horrific injuries when he was attacked by a wee dog - it was so small it got underneath him and bit him repeatedly

It's owner couldn't get to it nor could I or the person I was with as it was completely underneath him and we couldn't get it off

Small dogs can be and often are (due to lack of training as some people seem to think it's 'cute' that their small dog is 'feisty') much, much more vicious than big dogs

How dare you even hint that it doesn't matter / or is of less significance when a small dog attacks a larger one because it allegedly can't do damage ..... they can & do - both physical and mental

Any dog being attacked by another is not acceptable - size has nothing to do with it


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Yep, lovely "nanny dog" , just look up these links which are only a few examples of their nurturing love of kids. Oh and none are from the Daily Mail! But I guess this is all just trolling..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-attack-dad-tells-how-3449276
http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/DOG...rier-attacks/story-23438113-detail/story.html
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/boy-15-needed-more-100-8958674


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Yep, lovely "nanny dog" , just look up these links which are only a few examples of their nurturing love of kids. Oh and none are from the Daily Mail! But I guess this is all just trolling..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-attack-dad-tells-how-3449276
http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/DOG...rier-attacks/story-23438113-detail/story.html
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/boy-15-needed-more-100-8958674


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I'm actually a Guardian reader, but regardless, are you claiming all the stories of kids being killed or severely mauled by Staffies and other such breeds are just fictional tales invented like Urban Legends??? Please find evidence of damage like this being done by a Chi.


Why would you want me to go and find evidence of any dog harming a child?
You are a strange one...
It is clear you have made a judgement, you are a very judgmental person it would seem...It is your loss, not mine 

Oh but if you want to find out what these dogs are really like rather than believing a few news articles (where the breed is reported wrong 99% of the time) then I am sure that we can give you some proper detailed experiences with bull breeds (and any other breed that you want to label aggressive).

Until then, I hope your dog never has to suffer from anxiety caused by irresponsible dog owners. I really do, you obviously have no idea what it is like or you would not have brushed it off as you did!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Yep, lovely "nanny dog" , just look up these links which are only a few examples of their nurturing love of kids. Oh and none are from the Daily Mail! But I guess this is all just trolling..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-attack-dad-tells-how-3449276
http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/DOG...rier-attacks/story-23438113-detail/story.html
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/boy-15-needed-more-100-8958674


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Head desk.......


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Yep, lovely "nanny dog" , just look up these links which are only a few examples of their nurturing love of kids. Oh and none are from the Daily Mail! But I guess this is all just trolling..

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-attack-dad-tells-how-3449276
http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/DOG...rier-attacks/story-23438113-detail/story.html
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/boy-15-needed-more-100-8958674


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

dogsaintdumb said:


> On a lighter and unrelated note, I really like your new avatar Thai.


Why thank you


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

In any case, thankfully it seems like outside of this forum my experience has been felt by the majority since there have been so many problems with Staffies and other breeds that the Scottish Govt is now reviewing it's dangerous dog policy on whether to ban them or enforce more stringent controls on their ownership and conditions of being in public. So seems my little Chis will be enjoying nice, safe walks again in the near future.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> your giants are either a pathetic penis extension or compensating for some other inadequacy.


So, lets get one or two things straight shall we.

You claim you came here for help, yet in doing so you deliberately targeted certain breeds and, if that wasn't enough to gain a rise, you then post offensive and insulting comments.

In my estimation, for a 'Newbie' you should go really far.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I started to feel embaressed for fellow Chihuahua owners several pages back....


but now its just funny!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I started to feel embaressed for fellow Chihuahua owners several pages back....


but now its just funny!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> In any case, thankfully it seems like outside of this forum my experience has been *felt by the majority since there have been so many problems with Staffies* and other breeds that the Scottish Govt is now reviewing it's dangerous dog policy on whether to ban them or enforce more stringent controls on their ownership and conditions of being in public. So seems my little Chis will be enjoying nice, safe walks again in the near future.


Thankfully I know that not to be the case, but if believing that makes you feel better than go for it


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

In any case, thankfully it seems like outside of this forum my experience has been felt by the majority since there have been so many problems with Staffies and other breeds that the Scottish Govt is now reviewing it's dangerous dog policy on whether to ban them or enforce more stringent controls on their ownership and conditions of being in public. So seems my little Chis will be enjoying nice, safe walks again in the near future.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

I think the majority of dog owners on this forum have larger breed dogs, so you basically just offended most of us with your ignorant views.

The way you talk about your dogs make me think you're the kind of owner who dresses their dog up in dresses and carries them around after 5 mins because their "tiny little legs" get tired!


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Here's my chi being attacked by a staffy. Oh wait...


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> I started to feel embaressed for fellow Chihuahua owners several pages back....
> 
> but now its just funny!


I think this is a sick joke, Chihuahua owners never have to bear the shame of risking kids to dogs that have mauled and killed them on many occasions. You shouldn't be embarrassed, you should be ashamed or at least realistic about the incidents and dangers present with your chosen breeds instead of being in defensive denial.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

My dog has never mauled or killed anything, let alone a child...


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I think this is a sick joke, Chihuahua owners never have to bear the shame of risking kids to dogs that have mauled and killed them on many occasions. You shouldn't be embarrassed, you should be ashamed or at least realistic about the incidents and dangers present with your chosen breeds instead of being in defensive denial.


Yeah, Ruby is so dangerous that my cat pushes her around. Okay then...


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Nataliee said:


> Here's my chi being attacked by a staffy. Oh wait...


I sincerely hope for the Chi's sake that you don't come to regret that joke someday...


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> My dog has never mauled or killed anything, let alone a child...


Many of the breed have


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Ohhh now thats really funny....... take some responsibility find safe places to walk your dog away from all those " uber scary big dogs" out there

just out of curiosity when was the last time you heard about a collie x am bull killing a kid? Where usthe proof of this as you have just told thai " many if her breed" have attacked kids?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Oh noes look at the brutality...hang on!


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Only my small breeds have ever killed anything. They'd be more likely to bite a child than my large ones, and than the majority of SBT's out there...For SBT's are typically *people oriented dogs*.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I sincerely hope for the Chi's sake that you don't come to regret that joke someday...


The staffy was a foster and the pair of them got on fantastically


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

RottieRubysMum said:


> I think the majority of dog owners on this forum have larger breed dogs, so you basically just offended most of us with your ignorant views.
> 
> The way you talk about your dogs make me think you're the kind of owner who dresses their dog up in dresses and carries them around after 5 mins because their "tiny little legs" get tired!


Actually the only clothes they have are winter jackets and the only time they got carried where when they were in the process of getting their shots or when I've had to lift them to safety from aggressive large breed dogs. My concerns about their welfare are not hysterical, they are based on what I've seen and experienced from what's gone down with other dogs.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Thankfully I know that not to be the case, but if believing that makes you feel better than go for it


Really? Not according to my MSP. Do some research.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ohhh now thats really funny....... take some responsibility find safe places to walk your dog away from all those " uber scary big dogs" out there
> 
> just out of curiosity when was the last time you heard about a collie x am bull killing a kid? Where usthe proof of this as you have just told thai " many if her breed" have attacked kids?


I actually made my "killer" jump by laughing at that comment


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Really? Not according to my MSP. *Do some research*.


Oh the irony, funny thing is you have no idea what I know about DDA and BSL.
You are too funny


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## neotarrow (Apr 18, 2015)

I've been a large breed owner my entire life. I have to walk my ambull at unsociable hours due to idiot owners who think it's ok for there dogs to approach him when I clearly inform them that he's unsure of strange dogs. 
As for bull breeds being dangerous around children I take extreme offence to. 
My boy would lay down his life to protect his family members, he often can be found in this position with my youngest son either using him as a pillow or a cushion whilst watching tv.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I think this is a sick joke, Chihuahua owners never have to bear the shame of risking kids to dogs that have mauled and killed them on many occasions. You shouldn't be embarrassed, you should be ashamed or at least realistic about the incidents and dangers present with your chosen breeds instead of being in defensive denial.


Now Im really confused!! I should be ashamed that my chosen breed presents a danger??
Even though my chosen breed is Chihuahua!!

Are yours somehow special 'different' Chihuahuas then everybody else then?


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ohhh now thats really funny....... take some responsibility find safe places to walk your dog away from all those " uber scary big dogs" out there
> 
> just out of curiosity when was the last time you heard about a collie x am bull killing a kid? Where usthe proof of this as you have just told thai " many if her breed" have attacked kids?


I am taking responsibility, I came on here to seek advice from fellow small dog owners on safe places. I have also gone to the effort of driving distances from home to find good walks for the dogs. It is because I take responsibility for my dogs that I am so concerned about their vulnerability. Unlike so many here who just don't seem to give a damn or are in defensive denial about what they're dogs could be capable of.

My comment on the breed was referring to Staffies and their variants and peer breeds.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ohhh now thats really funny....... take some responsibility find safe places to walk your dog away from all those " uber scary big dogs" out there
> 
> just out of curiosity when was the last time you heard about a collie x am bull killing a kid? Where usthe proof of this as you have just told thai " many if her breed" have attacked kids?


I am taking responsibility, I came on here to seek advice from fellow small dog owners on safe places. I have also gone to the effort of driving distances from home to find good walks for the dogs. It is because I take responsibility for my dogs that I am so concerned about their vulnerability. Unlike so many here who just don't seem to give a damn or are in defensive denial about what they're dogs could be capable of.

My comment on the breed was referring to Staffies and their variants and peer breeds.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

X GSD vs Sar'

One bite big


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ohhh now thats really funny....... take some responsibility find safe places to walk your dog away from all those " uber scary big dogs" out there
> 
> just out of curiosity when was the last time you heard about a collie x am bull killing a kid? Where usthe proof of this as you have just told thai " many if her breed" have attacked kids?


I am taking responsibility, I came on here to seek advice from fellow small dog owners on safe places. I have also gone to the effort of driving distances from home to find good walks for the dogs. It is because I take responsibility for my dogs that I am so concerned about their vulnerability. Unlike so many here who just don't seem to give a damn or are in defensive denial about what they're dogs could be capable of.

My comment on the breed was referring to Staffies and their variants and peer breeds.


----------



## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ohhh now thats really funny....... take some responsibility find safe places to walk your dog away from all those " uber scary big dogs" out there
> 
> just out of curiosity when was the last time you heard about a collie x am bull killing a kid? Where usthe proof of this as you have just told thai " many if her breed" have attacked kids?


I am taking responsibility, I came on here to seek advice from fellow small dog owners on safe places. I have also gone to the effort of driving distances from home to find good walks for the dogs. It is because I take responsibility for my dogs that I am so concerned about their vulnerability. Unlike so many here who just don't seem to give a damn or are in defensive denial about what they're dogs could be capable of.

My comment on the breed was referring to Staffies and their variants and peer breeds.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

I know this isn't really the thread for compliments, but neotarrow, that's such a sweet photo. They all look comfortable as anything, and your Ambull is gorgeous.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ohhh now thats really funny....... take some responsibility find safe places to walk your dog away from all those " uber scary big dogs" out there
> 
> just out of curiosity when was the last time you heard about a collie x am bull killing a kid? Where usthe proof of this as you have just told thai " many if her breed" have attacked kids?


I am taking responsibility, I came on here to seek advice from fellow small dog owners on safe places. I have also gone to the effort of driving distances from home to find good walks for the dogs. It is because I take responsibility for my dogs that I am so concerned about their vulnerability. Unlike so many here who just don't seem to give a damn or are in defensive denial about what they're dogs could be capable of.

My comment on the breed was referring to Staffies and their variants and peer breeds.


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

i typed a reply but you really aren't worth the effort. My two dangerous dogs are far more interesting.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis, we all know what our dogs are capable of. We're defending your claims that they *are* dangerous, we're not saying they aren't capable of killing something. Just like you, we're relaying our experiences. What's the difference between you saying "I've seen this" and us saying "Well I've seen this"? There isn't one.

Typically, all dogs have teeth. Typically, they all have some level of prey drive. Technically, they are all capable of killing something. Will they? Depends on the dog, depends of the handling, depends of the management and depends on the training. You say your dogs have been trained well. Why can our dogs also not be trained to an equal or higher level? You're not thinking.

If your intent was to troll, then you've achieved the objective. I am thoroughly effed off.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

My dog is capable of convincing me to give her the whole bag of treats instead of a couple just with her eyes!

She's damn dangerous...to bacon.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

neotarrow said:


> I've been a large breed owner my entire life. I have to walk my ambull at unsociable hours due to idiot owners who think it's ok for there dogs to approach him when I clearly inform them that he's unsure of strange dogs.
> As for bull breeds being dangerous around children I take extreme offence to.
> My boy would lay down his life to protect his family members, he often can be found in this position with my youngest son either using him as a pillow or a cushion whilst watching tv.
> View attachment 170765


I think it's offensive that you risk your own kids with dangerous breeds. There have been many cute family pictures like this that then become blood stained when the dog suddenly turns on the kid, all you hear is the parent going on about how the dog was never violent and loved the kid so much...


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I think it's offensive that you risk your own kids with dangerous breeds. There have been many cute family pictures like this that then become blood stained when the dog suddenly turns on the kid, all you hear is the parent going on about how the dog was never violent and loved the kid so much...


What the fudge is wrong with you!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> Now Im really confused!! I should be ashamed that my chosen breed presents a danger??
> Even though my chosen breed is Chihuahua!!
> 
> Are yours somehow special 'different' Chihuahuas then everybody else then?


The comment was intended for owners of dangerous breeds


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

RottieRubysMum said:


> What the fudge is wrong with you!


What is wrong with you??? Why would you choose a dog that could seriously injure a child and has many records for having done so?! Why would you feel this was a good family pet?! Why would you not put the welfare of your child above your preference of breed?!


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> In any case, thankfully it seems like outside of this forum my experience has been felt by the majority since there have been so many problems with Staffies and other breeds that the Scottish Govt is now reviewing it's dangerous dog policy on whether to ban them or enforce more stringent controls on their ownership and conditions of being in public. So seems my little Chis will be enjoying nice, safe walks again in the near future.


are you sure you have your facts right here? I haven't heard anything about this which seems a bit odd given that every other proposed change to Scots law regarding dogs gets comprehensively debated on the Scottish agility groups and this would affect quite a few agility dogs


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## neotarrow (Apr 18, 2015)

You assume that I leave my children alone unsupervised then do you? I'm a 42 year old woman who has a brain and knows that no dog no matter how long they have been with a family can bite.
I am far from irresponsible and have Never left any of my children and dogs alone together. I am furious that you assume that.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

dogsaintdumb said:


> Gizmo&CujotheChis, we all know what our dogs are capable of. We're defending your claims that they *are* dangerous, we're not saying they aren't capable of killing something. Just like you, we're relaying our experiences. What's the difference between you saying "I've seen this" and us saying "Well I've seen this"? There isn't one.
> 
> Typically, all dogs have teeth. Typically, they all have some level of prey drive. Technically, they are all capable of killing something. Will they? Depends on the dog, depends of the handling, depends of the management and depends on the training. You say your dogs have been trained well. Why can our dogs also not be trained to an equal or higher level? You're not thinking.
> 
> If your intent was to troll, then you've achieved the objective. I am thoroughly effed off.


This is a measured and considered response. I appreciate that. But the fact is your dogs come with huge risks and nobody really knows what they could do.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> The comment was intended for owners of dangerous breeds


well, you did say you were interested in the opinions of other small breed owners. So my opinion is that not all large dogs are dangerous and not all small dogs are saints. I think you are either a troll or unlucky enough to live in an area with alot of irresponsible dog owning knobs.
Ive known some perfectly lovely Staffies, in fact they are one of Adams favourite breeds! I trust my little dogs to let me know if a dog doesnt seem 'right' to them and it rarely has anything to do with breed.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Blah blah blah, me thinks its time to stop feeding. There aint no arguing with stupid.......


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Zaros said:


> X GSD vs Sar'
> 
> One bite big


Wow, check you out! You're too cool with the savage beasts you no doubt claim to have mastered and like to show off with about bite radius. Lovely pet, why don't you get some poisonous snakes too just for the kick of it?!


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> What is wrong with you??? Why would you choose a dog that could seriously injure a child and has many records for having done so?! Why would you feel this was a good family pet?! Why would you not put the welfare of your child above your preference of breed?!


#1 crazy lady, I don't have children. I do have cats that Ruby adores and trust her with them entirely.

#2 it's not about the breed, it's about training. As we have been trying to tell you!

#3 don't talk crap about my dog, because I will become defensive and defend her adorable, sweet nature from your ignorant and stupid comments!

#4 my brother is coming to stay at the weekend, he's a preteen and I am 100% sure she will love him.

So go off with your other little small minded friends, with their chiweenies in their handbags and discuss about all this big scary dogs you see around, playing fetch and running around happily.


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

http://www.kptv.com/story/21313261/pack-of-chihuahuas-attack-little-girl

http://www.cbs8.com/story/23846929/mom-says-no-one-helped-her-after-dog-attacked-child


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> In any case, thankfully it seems like outside of this forum my experience has been felt by the majority since there have been so many problems with Staffies and other breeds that the Scottish Govt is now reviewing it's dangerous dog policy on whether to ban them or enforce more stringent controls on their ownership and conditions of being in public. So seems my little Chis will be enjoying nice, safe walks again in the near future.


Link please ...... I can see no evidence anywhere that the SG are intending to ban dogs! (seriously where on earth did you get that from!)

I fail to see how microchipping dogs will stop or have any impact on dog on dog attacks when the vast majority happen when owners are there ....


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dangerous breeds...my dangerous dog was a Labrador mix. A Pom killed a baby a few years back. A Dachshund chewed a toddlers genitals off. A cocker spaniel has recently been required to be leashed and muzzled in public due to anti social behaviour. ANY dog of any breed and any size can be dangerous. If I'm not mistaken Labradors come very high on the bite statistics. Nobody seems to get on about those being dangerous, quite the opposite in fact.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> well, you did say you were interested in the opinions of other small breed owners. So my opinion is that not all large dogs are dangerous and not all small dogs are saints. I think you are either a troll or unlucky enough to live in an area with alot of irresponsible dog owning knobs.
> Ive known some perfectly lovely Staffies, in fact they are one of Adams favourite breeds! I trust my little dogs to let me know if a dog doesnt seem 'right' to them and it rarely has anything to do with breed.


I respect this and yes I tend to go with my dogs judgement too, but with the Staffies they've encountered it's just been instant hostility.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

This thread is wholly ridiculous.

OP, it's a bloody good job I love my dogs more than I dislike you because I'd hang around a bit more just to p155 you off with my poor sense of humour 

Oh and by the way, MrsZee adores my penis extension. A damn sight more than I do.

But, in all honesty, she's bound to because she doesn't have to push the [email protected]@kin' thing around in a wheel barrow all day long.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I respect this and yes I tend to go with my dogs judgement too, but with the Staffies they've encountered it's just been instant hostility.


In fairness, given how many must be rescues in Edinburgh, that could have something to do with it in how they have been abused, but doesn't make it any safer for my dogs.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Dangerous breeds...my dangerous dog was a Labrador mix. A Pom killed a baby a few years back. A Dachshund chewed a toddlers genitals off. A cocker spaniel has recently been required to be leashed and muzzled in public due to anti social behaviour. ANY dog of any breed and any size can be dangerous. If I'm not mistaken Labradors come very high on the bite statistics. Nobody seems to get on about those being dangerous, quite the opposite in fact.


All valid, but far more isolated incidents than the consistent stats on the breeds I have discussed here


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lilylass said:


> Link please ...... I can see no evidence anywhere that the SG are intending to ban dogs! (seriously where on earth did you get that from!)
> 
> I fail to see how microchipping dogs will stop or have any impact on dog on dog attacks when the vast majority happen when owners are there ....


Check out Salmond's words on it, but the last thing I'll do is give links to anyone who wants to advocate against it.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

well my small dogs aren't quite as small as Chi's as they are 2 mixed breeds that weigh 3.5kg
I do not think of any large dog breeds as a threat - I am obviously wary, careful and cautious about meeting and greeting strange dogs.
But my dogs greet and interact with various breeds large and small when we go for our walks - this week alone we have enjoyed sharing our walks with an Akita, several Eurasiurs (sp), quite a few staffies and staffie crosses, some pugs, a couple of Chis, a few terriers, a couple of labradors, lots of spaniels, a labradoodle and a German Shepard 
I think it is a real shame you live in an area so full of such irresponsible and stupid dog owners - I hope you find somewhere you feel safe to walk.
Every responsible dog owner cherishes their dogs and wants to protect them, keep them safe both physically and mentally no matter how big or small they are.
I would never tarnish a breed or breed type just because of a couple of bad encounters
The worse dogs I meet for lunging and barking are Chis (and their crosses) and terriers, the worse dogs for rude greeting seem to be gundogs (labradors etc) but I still assess each individual dog and owner and have met far more lovely ones than nasty or impolite ones


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Check out Salmond's words on it, but the last thing I'll do is give links to anyone who wants to advocate against it.


mmmmm maybe if he'd still been 1st Minister ...... maybe if there was anything recent ...... however, he's not & there isn't!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> well, you did say you were interested in the opinions of other small breed owners. So my opinion is that not all large dogs are dangerous and not all small dogs are saints. I think you are either a troll or* unlucky enough to live in an area with alot of irresponsible dog owning knobs.*
> Ive known some perfectly lovely Staffies, in fact they are one of Adams favourite breeds! I trust my little dogs to let me know if a dog doesnt seem 'right' to them and it rarely has anything to do with breed.


Nah, that's me, and even I'm not as misguided or judgemental as the OP. Responsible dog owners who are aware of canine body language, carry out training, put their dogs on lead when they see you do so, pick up after their dogs, have their dogs on lead on streets or near roads ... All of them seem to be in the minority here. 

For every responsible owner I meet, there's probably 2 or 3 who don't walk their dogs/put them on a lead/train them or even consider the consequence of their dog running up to.mine and getting in their faces (delete as appropriate)  Amazing that so few dogs have been involved in anything more than skirmishes or handbags moments, given the idiocy of the average dog owner round these parts. :frown2:


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

I do really re


Fleur said:


> well my small dogs aren't quite as small as Chi's as they are 2 mixed breeds that weigh 3.5kg
> I do not think of any large dog breeds as a threat - I am obviously wary, careful and cautious about meeting and greeting strange dogs.
> But my dogs greet and interact with various breeds large and small when we go for our walks - this week alone we have enjoyed sharing our walks with an Akita, several Eurasiurs (sp), quite a few staffies and staffie crosses, some pugs, a couple of Chis, a few terriers, a couple of labradors, lots of spaniels, a labradoodle and a German Shepard
> I think it is a real shame you live in an area so full of such irresponsible and stupid dog owners - I hope you find somewhere you feel safe to walk.
> ...


I do really respect this position and wish I could take it. Like I said in another comment, I really did begin with an open mind, I wanted my dogs to have all the interaction, but the gruesome things that have happened have shattered that faith and now I am cautious. I also agree Chis can be terrible, they are scared of big dogs and exhibit this by barking. I have worked a lot with mine to prevent this as I realise it makes them even more susceptible.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> well, you did say you were interested in the opinions of other small breed owners. So my opinion is that not all large dogs are dangerous and not all small dogs are saints. I think you are either a troll or* unlucky enough to live in an area with alot of irresponsible dog owning knobs.*
> Ive known some perfectly lovely Staffies, in fact they are one of Adams favourite breeds! I trust my little dogs to let me know if a dog doesnt seem 'right' to them and it rarely has anything to do with breed.


Nah, that's me, and even I'm not as misguided or judgemental as the OP. Responsible dog owners who are aware of canine body language, carry out training, put their dogs on lead when they see you do so, pick up after their dogs, have their dogs on lead on streets or near roads ... All of them seem to be in the minority here. 

For every responsible owner I meet, there's probably 2 or 3 who don't walk their dogs/put them on a lead/train them or even consider the consequence of their dog running up to.mine and getting in their faces (delete as appropriate)  Amazing that so few dogs have been involved in anything more than skirmishes or handbags moments, given the idiocy of the average dog owner round these parts.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Lilylass said:


> mmmmm maybe if he'd still been 1st Minister ...... maybe if there was anything recent ...... however, he's not & there isn't!


Duh, he pulls Sturgeon's strings and pressure is rising not decreasing to deal with the Staffie issues. Not even just their aggression, but the strain on the dog homes and all the illegal breeding.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> What is the politically correct description for a girl in a bad tracksuit, top knot, cheap cider in one hand, *** in the other, a baby and a Rottweiler on a totally impractical diamante lead that would barely restrain a Chi???


I thought I was being followed this afternoon on our walk


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Milliepoochie said:


> I thought I was being followed this afternoon on our walk


Ugly brutes, just makes me think of the devil dog in THE OMEN


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Guys... I’m pretty sure this is just another incarnation of LeighPing. The ignore function on this new forum is super easy


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Duh, he pulls Sturgeon's strings and pressure is rising not decreasing to deal with the Staffie issues. Not even just their aggression, but the strain on the dog homes and all the illegal breeding.


I am sorry, but what illegal breeding? If you are implying that it is illegal to breed staffies, it is not. If you are referring to unlicensed puppy farms - the most commonly farmed dogs are the smaller breeds, chi's are very popular with them. Please elaborate?

Staffies are not aggressive dogs in general, but that has been pointed out to you over and over again. Staffies are used as therapy dogs, police dogs, assistance dogs etc up and down the country. My behaviourist who helped me out with my own dog used 3 of them as stooge dogs while working with us.

I have worked in rescue with many of the breeds that you are trying to condemn. A lot were rehomed to families with young children. We also had a few chi crosses, some were ok with children, others were really awful with them. If we said to you, you own chi's, what is up with you? They are all ankle biting snappy dogs that will have every bodies fingers off I can bet you would be defending your dogs the same as everybody here is defending theirs. That's because one aggressive dog does not mean the entire breed is aggressive. Surely you can see how the owners of the dogs you are criticising feel? I feel upset that somebody like you could seriously be talking about this and putting people off rehoming what are some especially loving and forgiving dogs, dogs that keep being friendly despite humans having done some pretty horrific things to them.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Guys... I'm pretty sure this is just another incarnation of LeighPing. The ignore function on this new forum is super easy


Well in that case...


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

RottieRubysMum said:


> So go off with your other little small minded friends, with their chiweenies in their handbags and discuss about all this big scary dogs you see around, playing fetch and running around happily.


Hey!! Dont dis' the Chiweenie owners!! I cant help my small mind, I was at the back of the queue when the large minds were being handed out! 
Also both my Chiweenies are about 10Ibs so Im not stretching out any handbags or doing my back in by attempting to carry one around!

(trip, trap, trip, trap.......whats that I hear??)


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

catpud said:


> I am sorry, but what illegal breeding? If you are implying that it is illegal to breed staffies, it is not. If you are referring to unlicensed puppy farms - the most commonly farmed dogs are the smaller breeds, chi's are very popular with them. Please elaborate?
> 
> Staffies are not aggressive dogs in general, but that has been pointed out to you over and over again. Staffies are used as therapy dogs, police dogs, assistance dogs etc up and down the country. My behaviourist who helped me out with my own dog used 3 of them as stooge dogs while working with us.
> 
> I have worked in rescue with many of the breeds that you are trying to condemn. A lot were rehomed to families with young children. We also had a few chi crosses, some were ok with children, others were really awful with them. If we said to you, you own chi's, what is up with you? They are all ankle biting snappy dogs that will have every bodies fingers off I can bet you would be defending your dogs the same as everybody here is defending theirs. That's because one aggressive dog does not mean the entire breed is aggressive. Surely you can see how the owners of the dogs you are criticising feel? I feel upset that somebody like you could seriously be talking about this and putting people off rehoming what are some especially loving and forgiving dogs, dogs that keep being friendly despite humans having done some pretty horrific things to them.


There is a massive difference between a Chi that bites a finger versus a Staffie who is capable of decapitating a small dog or mauling a child to death or severely scarring them for life (as has happened many times). So frankly I don't know how you can have it on your conscience to place them with young families and in these communities where proper family pets could be so horrifically killed by them. I would not defend the record of Chis with kids, again as you lot keep arguing it comes down to treating a Chi like a dog not a spoilt brat and ensuring kids realise how fragile they are when they handle them. But as per my original point a Chi is far more limited in the damage it can inflict versus a Staffie. The breeding I am referring to is packs on council estates where they are bred for cash in hand such as the pack which killed that teenager. Also the cross breeding which has corrupted the breed. I am upset that naïve do-gooders like you are encouraging these dogs back into the community where kids and small dogs will no doubt suffer the consequences of your rose tinted perceptions.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

What about other large breeds other then bullies? My staffy was very badly attacked by a black lab last year tearing a whole in his head and never once did he retaliate as he is the worlds biggest wimp!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I am upset that naïve do-gooders like you are encouraging these dogs back into the community where kids and small dogs will no doubt suffer the consequences of your rose tinted perceptions.


_*Is that a Staffy which I see before me?*_


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

pogo said:


> What about other large breeds other then bullies? My staffy was very badly attacked by a black lab last year tearing a whole in his head and never once did he retaliate as he is the worlds biggest wimp!


I'd say exception to the rule and stats, but exception none the less


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Zaros said:


> _*Is that a Staffy which I see before me?*_


Go play with your Yeti dog


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> FYI my dogs were on the lead when the Staffies lunged. We were just walking down the street.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions on Edinburgh, I grew up here and had a little Jack Russell then that I could walk safely. What has changed lately is the constant increase of the bully breeds. I have walked the dogs in the braidburn where it generally is OK but that's where the recent Akita incident was and there is also a* white trash idiot girl with a Rottweiler on a fragile diamante lead*. I will try the Hermitage.
> 
> And no I am not troll. Just a concerned small dog owner who felt compelled to write this post because of how many horrible incidents there have been lately.


What a disgusting thing to say


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I'd say exception to the rule and stats, but exception none the less


Which stats?
Link me to these stats you speak of please.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Goat


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Which stats?
> Link me to these stats you speak of please.


Please... do Google, shit load there and another incident on a daily basis


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I've not even read half the posts on here and already all I see is a staff bash from the OP. Yes of course staffs can be aggressive if not trained properly...as can poodles/yorkies/KCS's ....get the messege...Many people come on here who own very well behaved bull breeds because they have been trained properly....and it really isn't nice to come on here calling hell out of their dogs. Penny and Molly where playing with a huge Bull breed the other day at the park...in fact I'm pretty sure their heads would have stuck between his teeth but he was playing with them and they loved it....If you are not a troll might I suggest you find a bull breed owner who has a well behaved dog and allow your dogs to play...avoidance is only going to put fear into your dogs. All dogs can become aggressive....even small ones....P & M had one fight...when I first bought Moll home and hadn't been warned about her food aggression....Those 2 are tiny and they where at each other like crazy...in fact I remember picking one of the up and she still had the other in her mouth by her ear....and these 2 are far from bull breeds ...my eldest is a staff x and I have not once had to stop her attacking the others


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Report function works smoothly too


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Please... do Google, shit load there and another incident on a daily basis


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Report function works smoothly too


Good for you, censor anyone who says it like it is about dangerous dogs, good luck with that beyond this forum.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Good for you, censor anyone who says it like it is about dangerous dogs, good luck with that beyond this forum.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I'm actually a Guardian reader, but regardless, are you claiming all the stories of kids being killed or severely mauled by Staffies and other such breeds are just fictional tales invented like Urban Legends??? Please find evidence of damage like this being done by a Chi.


So many posts since I last checked. But yes, there is evidence of other breeds killing and maiming children. A JRT killed a newborn baby a couple of years back.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/harry-harper-mum-mikayla-bells-1449624

Girl is injured by an attack from a pack of Chihuahuas.
http://www.kptv.com/story/21313261/pack-of-chihuahuas-attack-little-girl

Another Chihuahua attack on a child
http://www.cbs8.com/story/23846929/mom-says-no-one-helped-her-after-dog-attacked-child

And those are just a few of I'm sure many incidents that you can find yourself. But I feel you're really not interested in actual facts, and would rather carry on your deluded and misguided attempts at 'convincing' us how 'evil' bully breeds are.

Oh and did you watch the video I linked to of the Staffies mixing with other dogs at the park? Freely and with no hint of aggression?
Of course you didn't 

For what it's worth, you've mentioned a few things that would make me believe you're not entirely innocent in these 'incidents' you've been witness to either. You stated early on that most dogs that have acted aggressively have been on lead, and yours have not been. You're male 'likes the girls' which suggests he humps them and generally acts like a pest when in the presence of them. All the acts of an irresponsible owner themselves.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I'd say exception to the rule and stats, but exception none the less


You my dear are one hell of a naive moron, he's been attacked or lunged at by your oh so innocent chis, poms, jrt, labs, collies need I go on?

Utterly pathetic


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Thick as a post. I'm done trying to convince this crazy woman not to be so damn judgemental about dogs. But, I feel like my time would have better been spent trying to catch water in a colander


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> So many posts since I last checked. But yes, there is evidence of other breeds killing and maiming children. A JRT killed a newborn baby a couple of years back.
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/harry-harper-mum-mikayla-bells-1449624
> 
> ...


If you'd read my posts you'd have seen my dogs were always on the lead when these incident happens, and nope my youngest Chi doesn't hump anything as I would intervene if that were the case. He had a crash on a little Daschmund and followed her was the extent of it. You are not innocent from the get go in choosing a dangerous breed and inflicting the danger on everyone else.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Good for you, censor anyone who says it like it is about dangerous dogs, good luck with that beyond this forum.


Thanks 
I actually have a lot of success sharing accurate information about bull breed dogs like staffies. I don't need luck, the information (and the dogs' behavior) speak for themselves.

Staffies make fabulous family pets. They are ridiculously devoted little dogs who love nothing more than just being with their people, are super tolerant of handling (like little kids tripping over them or being a little too rough), tend to have a happy, eager demeanor, not easily deterred by one or two bad experiences, very resilient, very biddable, fun to train, eager to participate in pretty much anything... They're awesome little all-round dogs.

They do tend to be prey driven (like many breeds) and dog intolerance is common in the breed, but with intelligent handling, since they are so biddable, both their prey drive and dog intolerance can be very easily managed.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

pogo said:


> You my dear are one hell of a naive moron, he's been attacked or lunged at by your oh so innocent chis, poms, jrt, labs, collies need I go on?
> 
> Utterly pathetic


Last dog that had a pop at Thai was a cockerpoo, time before that was a min dashound...I could continue but -shrugs-


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

I was about to type a very long informational post, but I am starting to agree with the people posting goats and thought that looked more fun = this goat is also very relevant to the topic


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

This thread reminds me. . .

I saw a beautiful staffy x only the morning having a whale of a time in a customer's back yard (staffy doesn't belong to customer as far as I am aware, but think he lives next door). Thoroughly enjoying himself he was, completely oblivious to the fact I was watching him chasing mauling and pouncing ... On a stick.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Do you not realise your delicate little pooches could have done exactly the same to Harv?


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

The only people who ignore facts in this forum are those who elected to have dangerous breeds with prolific and extensive atrocities against kids and dogs. You took this risk and it is unfair that everyone else should have to suffer the consequence of your choices. You are fighting a losing battle as the incidents will no doubt continue until your dogs end up on the banned list or have to be muzzled. In the meantime I will just protect my Chis as best as I can from them and ensure I do everything in my power to make communities safe again for kids and proper pets against the intimidating menace and carnage of this failed ego driven experiment in domesticating dangerous dogs.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

You're not saying it like it is. You're saying all large dogs are dangerous. Noooo. All large dogs have the ability to be dangerous. I can see where you're coming from with the "small bites aren't as bad as large ones" thing. It's true. A Chihuahua is unlikely to kill my Doberman. However, that doesn't make it okay that a Chihuahua attacks my dog just because it can't kill her. ALL dogs can become aggressive and all aggressive dogs are dangerous to an extent.

My large dog did become mentally unstable due to several dog attacks from various breeds, though not one killed her. Does that make it alright? No, it makes her a damaged dog who will never be completely comfortable in the company of unfamiliar dogs. You seem to only worry about the physical damage.

All dogs of any size and breed are capable of mentally damaging any dog of any size and breed. I worry about the mental damage for all of my dogs, small and large alike, just as much as I worry about the physical damage that can be inflicted upon them by other dogs. Large dogs CAN be injured by small dogs. I once had a German Shepherd given to me who had been repeatedly attacked by the Jack Russell it lived with. The dog had scars everywhere and was mentally messed up. Likewise, I've had a Doberman turn on one of my JRT's and, had the dog not been muzzled, serious damage would have been done. As a result, my JRT gave the evil-eye to my next brown-coloured Dobe for years.

Size doesn't matter. I'm sure your wife wouldn't mind if you had reduction surgery, Zaros.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> The only people who ignore facts in this forum are those who elected to have dangerous breeds with prolific and extensive atrocities against kids and dogs. You took this risk and it is unfair that everyone else should have to suffer the consequence of your choices. You are fighting a losing battle as the incidents will no doubt continue until your dogs end up on the banned list or have to be muzzled. In the meantime I will just protect my Chis as best as I can from them and ensure I do everything in my power to make communities safe again for kids and proper pets against the intimidating menace and carnage of this failed ego driven experiment in domesticating dangerous dogs.


Oh will you just do us all a favour and f**k off quietly...


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Thanks
> I actually have a lot of success sharing accurate information about bull breed dogs like staffies. I don't need luck, the information (and the dogs' behavior) speak for themselves.
> 
> Staffies make fabulous family pets. They are ridiculously devoted little dogs who love nothing more than just being with their people, are super tolerant of handling (like little kids tripping over them or being a little too rough), tend to have a happy, eager demeanor, not easily deterred by one or two bad experiences, very resilient, very biddable, fun to train, eager to participate in pretty much anything... They're awesome little all-round dogs.
> ...


The dogs speak for themselves by providing endless media horror stories.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> If you'd read my posts you'd have seen my dogs were always on the lead when these incident happens, and nope my youngest Chi doesn't hump anything as I would intervene if that were the case. He had a crash on a little Daschmund and followed her was the extent of it. You are not innocent from the get go in choosing a dangerous breed and inflicting the danger on everyone else.


For you to insist he 'likes the ladies' means there has been evidence of him doing so!

By the way, if anyone came here and said your dogs were nothing but rats that are snappy, yappy, snarly, and generally 'pointless' dogs, would you be upset or offended? What if people started turning their nose up at you at the park, avoiding you like the plague and insulting you based on your choice of dog?

I'm thinking with the shoe on the other foot, as many the case with these sorts who get on their high horse and look down upon certain individuals, you'd expect sympathy and consoling words about how 'precious' your dogs are etc.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> The dogs speak for themselves by providing endless media horror stories.


What about the news articles I linked to...providing you with evidence of small dog attacks? Or are you conveniently ignoring anything that goes against the point you're failing miserably to make?


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> For you to insist he 'likes the ladies' means there has been evidence of him doing so!
> 
> By the way, if anyone came here and said your dogs were nothing but rats that are snappy, yappy, snarly, and generally 'pointless' dogs, would you be upset or offended? What if people started turning their nose up at you at the park, avoiding you like the plague and insulting you based on your choice of dog?
> 
> I'm thinking with the shoe on the other foot, as many the case with these sorts who get on their high horse and look down upon certain individuals, you'd expect sympathy and consoling words about how 'precious' your dogs are etc.


I'd say my dogs don't kill other dogs and kids!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> What about the news articles I linked to...providing you with evidence of small dog attacks? Or are you conveniently ignoring anything that goes against the point you're failing miserably to make?


Already addressed, isolated incidents that has nada on the frequency, consistency and severity in the main dangerous breeds attacks.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> The only people who ignore facts in this forum are those who elected to have dangerous breeds with prolific and extensive atrocities against kids and dogs. You took this risk and it is unfair that everyone else should have to suffer the consequence of your choices. You are fighting a losing battle as the incidents will no doubt continue until your dogs end up on the banned list or have to be muzzled. In the meantime I will just protect my Chis as best as I can from them and ensure I do everything in my power to make communities safe again for kids and proper pets against the intimidating menace and carnage of this failed ego driven experiment in domesticating dangerous dogs.


Oh why on why did someone not tell me six years ago....

Now it all makes sense!

Now I know why Millie's last owners gave her away


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I'd say my dogs don't kill other dogs and kids!


Neither does mine, who would have thought it eh?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I'd say my dogs don't kill other dogs and kids!


And neither does the dogs owned by certain members on here - StormyThai & Pogo for example. So, why are you maligning the breed as a whole?


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Already addressed, isolated incidents that has nada on the frequency, consistency and severity in the main dangerous breeds attacks.


Yeah... I don't think you understand the meanings of words like frequency, consistency, and severity.

Dogs aren't dangerous.
Breeds aren't dangerous.
Behavior can be dangerous, and dangerous behavior can and should be addressed. Otherwise, banning breeds won't do jack squat for preventing injuries to dogs or humans.

The UK has had a breed ban in place for how long now? And incidents have only risen, not declined. If that's not clear evidence that breed bans don't work, I don't know what is.

Deed not breed.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Already addressed, isolated incidents that has nada on the frequency, consistency and severity in the main dangerous breeds attacks.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

And if people don't want to be snubbed in parks then don't choose breeds with notorious reputations and track records that threaten the mortality of everyone else's dogs & kids


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## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

I'm not a huge fan of staffies...


...they give to many kisses! 

However in all seriousness, as many have already said every breed can have temperamental individuals that give a breed a bad name. Before Staffies other breeds were stigmatised by the press, I don't believe staffie attacks are as common as the press make out. I think it's the same stories that get reprinted, even when the breed hasn't been identified there is usually a picture of a staffie, but when have facts ever got in the way of a good story...


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> And if people don't want to be snubbed in parks then don't choose breeds with notorious reputations and track records that threaten the mortality of everyone else's dogs & kids


We don't get snubbed in the park thanks that's why the boys have girlfriends and a huge group of doggy friends, from Yorkies to Newfoundlands...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Already addressed, isolated incidents that has nada on the frequency, consistency and severity in the main dangerous breeds attacks.


Dog attacks in general, caused by ANY breed are extremely rare. Of course, we only hear the negativity surrounding dog attacks because that generates more interest, as this thread demonstrates really, than the cute Staffies mixing with other dogs, snuggling up to their owners, and generally being great family pets. Would you read an article on a positive Staffie story? I can provide them, as I'm sure many here can.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Milliepoochie said:


> Oh why on why did someone not tell me six years ago....
> 
> Now it all makes sense!
> 
> Now I know why Millie's last owners gave her away


Maybe it was because the owners realised they didn't need a vicious guard dog, or perhaps it gave them the creeps to have the same dog as Damien was assigned by Satan in THE OMEN Why don't you get her a crow as an accessory for full effect?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You know that film isn't real right?


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> You know that film isn't real right?


I know the many nasty Rottie attacks are tragically real and why the film was inspired to cast a Rottweiler in the sinister role.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Already addressed, isolated incidents that has nada on the* frequency, *consistency and severity in the main dangerous breeds attacks.


*You do post some absolute dog sh1t!

But whilst we're on the subject of frequency;

Here's my 4sshole antenna. You're coming in loud and clear*


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)




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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I know the many nasty Rottie attacks are tragically real and why the film was inspired to cast a Rottweiler in the sinister role.


Now you are just making yourself look silly..


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)




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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> And if people don't want to be snubbed in parks then don't choose breeds with notorious reputations and track records that threaten the mortality of everyone else's dogs & kids


What are you on about?!

A dog is a dog is a dog. Some dogs can be snappier with dogs (my own dogs breed is known for this) but you must judge each dog as an individual. I've never met a "nasty" Staffy. A very friendly breed and my next dog when the time is right.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Guess I'd best fear for my life every time I open my front door since I share a communal garden with one of these oh so vicious Rotties. Only a matter of time before I'm savaged on my own doorstep. And god only knows how I didn't get mauled in my bed when looking after our friends Rottie, he actually slept in our bedroom


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Staffie to Rotties?
My Terrier regulary interacts with a Staffie. They are great together. He's not been mauled yet.
My dog is much bigger than a Chi though- he's 8.5kg so perhaps he's okay as the staffie isn't much bigger than him?
The dog we have the most problems with are Labs as most round here are rude greeters- however I don't avoid them, I quite like them and we've met a couple who were polite.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Guess I'd best fear for my life every time I open my front door since I share a communal garden with one of these oh so vicious Rotties. Only a matter of time before I'm savaged on my own doorstep. And god only knows how I didn't get mauled in my bed when looking after our friends Rottie, he actually slept in our bedroom


Indeed! Ruby sleeps in our bedroom, better keep one eye open!

OP, you need to understand that with ignorant views like these... It isn't the dogs you should be afraid of. It's the owners.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Why? Are you white trash too like the typical owners of such dogs seem to be? Hmm, why is it they are so drawn to certain breeds?!


Don't make me laugh. I'm in my mid 50's, a qualified nurse, my OH is a chartered surveyor and we run a very successful business together. I could go on but I won't bother as you have already made up your mind about rottie owners. I've owned 5 now along with a few other breeds over the years, I've only had one anti social one (a rescue) and she was kept muzzled and on a lead - she was the one the JRT repeatedly attacked hanging off her throat snarling. My present one is scared of most dogs and tries her best to avoid them, she hid in some bushes the other day because a couple of little poms charged at her barking. Your prejudice and ignorance are sad but your loss - you will never get to experience a huge big rottie cuddle.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Such a mean, savage, dangerous, breed!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I would honestly take this boy in a heartbeat if his owners offered lol. Honestly couldn't meet a nicer dog than Khan.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> Such a mean, savage, dangerous, breed!


It proves my point, looking like a grotesque monster amidst those cute animals. The Staffie PR rehab machine in full swing. My lasting image is off them covered in blood, teeth bared and a poor King Charles Spaniel with it's stomach torn open


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## neotarrow (Apr 18, 2015)

Oh look both on lead and playing nicely not a snarl or tooth bared between them.
Dangerous?? My OH farts are more dangerous


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Why are people engaging with this idiot


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> It proves my point, looking like a grotesque monster amidst those cute animals. The Staffie PR rehab machine in full swing. My lasting image is off them covered in blood, teeth bared and a poor King Charles Spaniel with it's stomach torn open


You really are deluded aren't you.....

Again, can you answer the question of why you are maligning the WHOLE breed as dangerous?

Also, how about you back up your own claims and provide us with the links to these 'savage' attacks in your local park?


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> It proves my point, looking like a grotesque monster amidst those cute animals. The Staffie PR rehab machine in full swing. My lasting image is off them covered in blood, teeth bared and a poor King Charles Spaniel with it's stomach torn open


The only grotesque monster on this thread is the one posting the drivel above


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Why are people engaging with this idiot


Nothing on telly?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

pogo said:


> Nothing on telly?


Perhaps

It does the place no favours when people continually take the bait of obvious trolling imbeciles though

The only reason they keep on returning is because they get a reaction so if less people responded and the mods actually stepped in promptly then we wouldn't have been through these weeks of annoyance


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

pogo said:


> Nothing on telly?


I actually went away for a bit to watch a couple of programmes and came back to like page 16!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Perhaps
> 
> It does the place no favours when people continually take the bait of obvious trolling imbeciles though
> 
> The only reason they keep on returning is because they get a reaction so if less people responded and the mods actually stepped in promptly then we wouldn't have been through these weeks of annoyance


Well I reported them as have a number of others so we shall see


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Phoolf said:


> Why are people engaging with this idiot


One way to practice using the new forum


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

pogo said:


> Well I reported them as have a number of others so we shall see


Indeed

Be useful if we had specific mods for Dog chat that were active

From glancing at the list of mods there's some that haven't even been active for a long time so kind of silly really


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Indeed
> 
> Be useful if we had specific mods for Dog chat that were active
> 
> From glancing at the list of mods there's some that haven't even been active for a long time so kind of silly really


Aye that would certainly be better!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Yawn....


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nothing against active current mods btw before you jump on me newfiesmum  Aside from NM and maybe 2 others this place is kind of left to its own devices at times


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Troll or not, other people might end up reading this thread and believe some of the crap the OP is spouting without other people making the effort to put the other side of the story. So rather than post goats I'm just going to carry on posting rotties instead. Have another one OP.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Troll or not, other people might end up reading this thread and believe some of the crap the OP is spouting without other people making the effort to put the other side of the story. So rather than post goats I'm just going to carry on posting rotties instead. Have another one OP.


Yeah, except if it's LeighPing he'll probably steal your photos and claim them as his own :rollseyes:


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## neotarrow (Apr 18, 2015)

Blue has gotten bored of all the negative comments and taken himself to bed.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Hello mods!


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

You could technically sue for that due to the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)




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## neotarrow (Apr 18, 2015)

Tag your it


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I see where you're coming from op, my small dog was killed by a large dog with just one bite, had a small dog attacked him it's doubtful the bite would have been so deep. I have large and small dogs and I don't let play get too exuberant even amongst them. Is it posdible to drive somewhere away from the area, somewhere more remote?


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Well I came on this thread to be helpful and tell you where I walk to avoid other dogs...but then I read it and so far you've called my dog an ugly brute, a devil dog and said that I'm white trash to own one.


So you can put in the work of finding your own walking places.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

I have now found a small dog owners forum that is considerably more balanced and helpful than this one in understanding the problems from my perspective, many of them having had their pets attacked or intimidated as the consequence of the dangerous breeds that most people here delude themselves about. They are giving suggestions of where to avoid my dogs being at risk of being mauled by these predators and I will be very proactive in advocating for parks and communities to be safe from this unnecessary menace. I hope you will all not have to suffer the guilt trip if your dogs end up attacking a child or savaging someone's treasured and defenceless pet. Statistics are against this though so I dare say someday some of you will reflect and regret thinking you could control what can never be controlled.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Would love to stop and chat some more but off to bed for a cuddle with my gorgeous girl


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I have now found a small dog owners forum that is considerably more balanced and helpful than this one in understanding the problems from my perspective, many of them having had their pets attacked or intimidated as the consequence of the dangerous breeds that most people here delude themselves about. They are giving suggestions of where to avoid my dogs being at risk of being mauled by these predators and I will be very proactive in advocating for parks and communities to be safe from this unnecessary menace. I hope you will all not have to suffer the guilt trip if your dogs end up attacking a child or savaging someone's treasured and defenceless pet. Statistics are against this though so I dare say someday some of you will reflect and regret thinking you could control what can never be controlled.


Ah, so you'll be leaving then?
Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I have now found a small dog owners forum that is considerably more balanced and helpful than this one in understanding the problems from my perspective, many of them having had their pets attacked or intimidated as the consequence of the dangerous breeds that most people here delude themselves about. They are giving suggestions of where to avoid my dogs being at risk of being mauled by these predators and I will be very proactive in advocating for parks and communities to be safe from this unnecessary menace. I hope you will all not have to suffer the guilt trip if your dogs end up attacking a child or savaging someone's treasured and defenceless pet. Statistics are against this though so I dare say someday some of you will reflect and regret thinking you could control what can never be controlled.


Aww and just when I was starting to like you


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I have now found a small dog owners forum that is considerably more balanced and helpful than this one in understanding the problems from my perspective, many of them having had their pets attacked or intimidated as the consequence of the dangerous breeds that most people here delude themselves about. They are giving suggestions of where to avoid my dogs being at risk of being mauled by these predators and I will be very proactive in advocating for parks and communities to be safe from this unnecessary menace. I hope you will all not have to suffer the guilt trip if your dogs end up attacking a child or savaging someone's treasured and defenceless pet. Statistics are against this though so I dare say someday some of you will reflect and regret thinking you could control what can never be controlled.


By balanced, you mean close minded? People that encourage your opinion by agreeing because they don't like big dogs either? Fair enough. If you can't accept all dogs then you don't belong on this forum IMO. You're not a dog lover, you're a your-dog lover. That's fine, but I'm willing to bet that everybody here feels some level of affection toward every single dog they see, whether they meet it or just see it on the pavement while driving. If they were to stop and think about that dog, I doubt such venom matching yours would pop into their minds. As far as I'm concerned, you're no longer welcome here.

That's not a decision for me to make of course, but it feels pretty unanimous.

Seeing as I've had 7 large dogs all pass away without attacking a child, a dog, a cat or me, as well as without needing muzzles and leads and high-security prisons to prevent attacks, I am confident that large dogs, whether they're Bull breeds or guarding breeds, aren't actually plotting to kill us all. One of my seven would surely have done it by now. Or maybe they'd also planned to leave the deed up to my current guarding breed who is by far the best dog I've had the pleasure of handling to date? Guess I'll have to wait and see. I'm sure she'll pop out her thumbs and update you once she's offed me and the rest of the village, though.

Let's not forget that quite a few people here own Bull breeds and large dogs and they still aren't dead yet. These dogs must be planning some really advanced mission for it to be taking so long.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I have now found a small dog owners forum that is considerably more balanced and helpful than this one in understanding the problems from my perspective, many of them having had their pets attacked or intimidated as the consequence of the dangerous breeds that most people here delude themselves about. They are giving suggestions of where to avoid my dogs being at risk of being mauled by these predators and I will be very proactive in advocating for parks and communities to be safe from this unnecessary menace. I hope you will all not have to suffer the guilt trip if your dogs end up attacking a child or savaging someone's treasured and defenceless pet. Statistics are against this though so I dare say someday some of you will reflect and regret thinking *you could control what can never be controlled*.



I'm sorry, what was that now?


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

...How on EARTH have you managed to survive so long, StormyThai? Thai's eyes glow with the purest of evils. That photo must have been taken a while ago, yet you've managed to return home from your (extremely dangerous) walk AND upload the photo here, despite having no oesophagus. 

I'm hoping Gizmo&CujotheChis was just here to cause trouble and wasn't actually serious with what s/he was writing. Either way, good riddance to bad guidance.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

dogsaintdumb said:


> ...How on EARTH have you managed to survive so long, StormyThai? Thai's eyes glow with the purest of evils. That photo must have been taken a while ago, yet you've managed to return home from your (extremely dangerous) walk AND upload the photo here, despite having no oesophagus.
> 
> I'm hoping Gizmo&CujotheChis was just here to cause trouble and wasn't actually serious with what s/he was writing. Either way, good riddance to bad guidance.


He is biding his time...I am not in control really, he just wants me to believe that so that he can put his world domination plans into effect...


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2015)

dogsaintdumb said:


> I'm hoping Gizmo&CujotheChis was just here to cause trouble and wasn't actually serious with what s/he was writing. Either way, good riddance to bad guidance.


I'm still not convinced it's not our resident troll, but unfortunately, that kind of attitude and insane level of breed prejudice and misinformation is not uncommon 
OH deals with pit bulls on a regular basis. Even the ones dragging massive chains and clearly not cared for and used for fighting are softies who melt at a kind word or attention. 
I hesitate to make breed generalizations, but with pitties, it really is mind boggling how human friendly they are even in the most horrible of situations. No other breed that I know of is that resilient and tolerant.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I'm still not convinced it's not our resident troll, but unfortunately, that kind of attitude and insane level of breed prejudice and misinformation is not uncommon
> OH deals with pit bulls on a regular basis. Even the ones dragging massive chains and clearly not cared for and used for fighting are softies who melt at a kind word or attention.
> I hesitate to make breed generalizations, but with pitties, it really is mind boggling how human friendly they are even in the most horrible of situations. No other breed that I know of is that resilient and tolerant.


And the staffy is our version of the pittie, hence why idiot owners can get away with treating them like crap as they will tolerate it


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Legit plotting some serious mayhem though.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Can anyone recommend a safe park for small dogs in Edinburgh? In the past few days I witnessed a poor little King Charles Spaniel mauled by vicious Staffies a Westie was then savaged by an Akita and I am afraid to let my Chihuahuas off their lead as they have been lurched at so many times by Staffies. The situation is getting ridiculous, in the city centre we are restricted on dog walking spaces as it is, let alone all the small dogs having to be so restricted now because of the never ending increase in these dog aggressive breeds.


For contrast:
As a child, I'm told I was bitten by a westie (I can't remember). Apparently, I was staying at my cousins when their westie jumped on the spare bed (which was was staying on). As I went to pick up my clothing next to the bed, the dog unbeknownst to me was tensing up around the bed (the dog had come from a home where it had been forcibly removed from furniture) and I obviously got too close, without realising any of this.

On another occasion, smallish terrier cross chi, came tearing across the park to steal my dog's toy, then flew at him when he mooched past this dog as I was asking the owner for the toy back. The dog had had our toy in his mouth and was resource guarding- very severely. In shielding my dog, the other dog misdirected onto me. It did manage to get my dog though. 

Guess what? After the latter experience, who did I go and walk him with soon after to give him some nice experiences around other dogs to counter what had happened? 
Rugby and Rex- two rescue staffies. 
Honey the American Bulldog.
(Plus a few terrier friends).

For the record; I like westies. The dog when I was a child, had come from a bad background. I've always liked dogs and apparently made a special effort to toss food to the dog in question whilst I was there. 
I have nothing against little terriers either. My dog's best friend is a scruffy terrier 
I've met the owner of the RG terrier since and the dogs even interacted briefly and politely. The owner is very careful how she manages this dog around resources now and walks him on a longline.

It's nice not to think in absolutes and to try to be intelligent about things you know!


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## knuckingfuts (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm really jonesing for some Staffy kisses and cuddles now. 
Guess I'll have to make do snuggling my vicious monster below.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

It's just a matter of time before they snap. My friend's Staffie is like a coiled spring. I'm surprised we've made it this long.









knuckingfuts, LOL! That lip has to be the most endearing thing I have seen in a long time.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Judging by the user name, all this from someone with a chihuahua called Cujo? Pull the other one


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

dogsaintdumb said:


> I'm hoping Gizmo&CujotheChis was just here to cause trouble, good riddance to bad guidance.


_*Of course they came here to cause trouble. Just like they came to cause trouble before.*_

_*How does a supposed or complete 'Newbie' know I'm a male?*_

_*I've never specified gender on my profile page.*_


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Ready - steady- attack........


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










yeah maybe in the morning......


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

*Flipping heck its taken me over an hour to read this thread I hope the OP has really gone now sounds like an idiot coming to cause trouble and wind folks up to me*


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

So OP wants large dog parks and small dog parks. My dogs are medium sized .... Does that mean I get all the fields and open spaces to myself? [looks hopeful].

And given that s/he's campaigning for small dog places ... Aren't staffies quite small in stature? :devil:

Sorry, but the goat memes and pics are wearing a bit thin... Could we have more.pics of devil dogs? Pleeeeease?


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Ready - steady- attack........
> 
> 
> __
> ...


Careful, looks like he's trying to dominate you there!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> It proves my point, looking like a grotesque monster amidst those cute animals. The Staffie PR rehab machine in full swing. My lasting image is off them covered in blood, teeth bared and a poor King Charles Spaniel with it's stomach torn open


I have this photo on my locker at work and I think it sums up Staffies wonderfully!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

dogsaintdumb said:


> It's just a matter of time before they snap. My friend's Staffie is like a coiled spring. I'm surprised we've made it this long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG! This thread is now 26 pages??? wtf went on? I'll have a read. Just wanted to say what a beautiful staffy. Look at those eyes. They are so full of love, they really are.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Can I be bothered to read all 26 pages ?  Unless someone wants to explain in a nutshell


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Hanwombat said:


> Can I be bothered to read all 26 pages ?  Unless someone wants to explain in a nutshell


OP is ignorant brick wall, made vile comments about how she hopes we don't regret these comments when/if our dogs attack  we were originally very polite and tried to help the OP see that it's the owners who are the problem, not the breed, but it was wasted on deaf ears. So, instead she decided to insult the kinds of people who own "viscious" dogs, calling us chavs etc. We responded by bombarding the thread with adorable "aggressive" dog pictures 

Edit: she also seemed to suggest we don't love our dogs like she loves her because they're so large and not as "vulnerable" as her babies and how can anyone love such "beasts"  don't know if it's just me who got that impression?

How can you not adore this face?


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## neotarrow (Apr 18, 2015)

It was also implied that we left our "dangerous " beasts unattended with our children as we're all irresponsible owners and don't have a brain. 
Big nasty bull breed


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Hanwombat said:


> Can I be bothered to read all 26 pages ?  Unless someone wants to explain in a nutshell


Basically someone came on to antagonise Bull breed/large breed owners, and successfully proved that there needs to be more than 8 mods on here.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

RottieRubysMum said:


> Edit: she also seemed to suggest we don't love our dogs like she loves her because they're so large and not as "vulnerable" as her babies and how can anyone love such "beasts"  don't know if it's just me who got that impression?


Buh!!
How could anyone not love this face?


You can see him plotting to destroy me -evil dog that he is


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

RottieRubysMum said:


> OP is ignorant brick wall, made vile comments about how she hopes we don't regret these comments when/if our dogs attack  we were originally very polite and tried to help the OP see that it's the owners who are the problem, not the breed, but it was wasted on deaf ears. So, instead she decided to insult the kinds of people who own "viscious" dogs, calling us chavs etc. We responded by bombarding the thread with adorable "aggressive" dog pictures
> 
> Edit: she also seemed to suggest we don't love our dogs like she loves her because they're so large and not as "vulnerable" as her babies and how can anyone love such "beasts"  don't know if it's just me who got that impression?
> 
> How can you not adore this face?


Thank you 

My girly is rottweiler cross and she is so adorable and wouldn't hurt a fly.... okay maybe a fly


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## knuckingfuts (Jan 11, 2014)

dogsaintdumb said:


> knuckingfuts, LOL! That lip has to be the most endearing thing I have seen in a long time.


Thanks.
I really want to add a caption to it. Something along the lines of "What do you mean we're out of ...!"
Can't decide on something middles class enough to maximise the funny.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Little P said:


> Careful, looks like he's trying to dominate you there!


Oh I know..... probably my own fault for letting him sit on the sofa AND sleep on the bed.................


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Personally I think it was our resident troll taking advantage of the format change...
If it was genuine then god knows what they are like when out walking their dogs. By being such a complete plank about 'devil dogs' they have managed to make small breed owners look like their stereotype too.
I hope they do go to a small breed forum. Im a member of a few and quite a few Chi owners also have large 'aggressive' breeds living together quite happily (without the Chi becoming a Happy Meal!).


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Oh I know..... probably my own fault for letting him sit on the sofa AND sleep on the bed.................


Have you no idea?! I bet he eats before you and goes first through the door too?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Little P said:


> Have you no idea?! I bet he eats before you and goes first through the door too?


What? thats not allowed? oh bums I'm clearly getting this all wrong..... we play TUG too


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Little P said:


> Have you no idea?!* I bet he eats before you and goes first through the door too*?


Oh dear ... So do mine, and because they're not adorable lil chi-babies surely they're out for world domination too. 

ETA: No offence to resident chi owners who actually have a brain between their ears... C4M etc.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Ok i gave up on reading most of this thread but the only thing i can say is my boy who isn't a bull breed but still a 'big' dog and crossed with the obviously 'dangerous' gsd and my friends staffy cross are soppy as anything with children and I trust them both with my 4 year old. my boy spends most of his day following my 4 year old around, letting her brush him and put things on him, she can stand or sit with food in her hands or on a plate and they wont touch it. so they can't be that bad, I trust them way more than I would a small dog really. they both love my small cat too who's not much bigger than a chi.

Ironically my friends nan has a little Jack Russell. he has bitten the postman twice and a delivery man, all three times he has just gotten warnings from the dog warden because he's only small dog. he also jumped into my friends sons car seat when he was a baby trying to bite him and more recently bit her two year old daughter (broke the skin and made her bleed) because she had food in her hands over the other side of the room, but because he's a little dog he gets away with it. but some people don't realise even a with small dog biting a child is a big thing and can cause a lot of damage.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Well, this thread has finally decided me - my next dog will be a rescue Staffy 

I've owned dogs for the past 23 years: border collies, gsd x, standard poodles. I've never experienced a very serious attack; the only one requiring the vet's intervention was when some sort of bull breed leapt out of a car window to attack my girl poodle as we walked past! (I had to take the owner to court to get the vet fees paid, which tells you all you need to know about him!) Other than that, the breeds I've had trouble with, in terms of dog-on-dog aggression, are border collies (including mine!), corgis, GSDs, labradors, border terrorists (sorry ), and yorkies. In other words, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, 'deed not breed'.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Apollo2012 said:


> Ok i gave up on reading most of this thread but the only thing i can say is my boy who isn't a bull breed but still a 'big' dog and crossed with the obviously 'dangerous' gsd and my friends staffy cross are soppy as anything with children and I trust them both with my 4 year old. my boy spends most of his day following my 4 year old around, letting her brush him and put things on him, she can stand or sit with food in her hands or on a plate and they wont touch it. so they can't be that bad, I trust them way more than I would a small dog really. they both love my small cat too who's not much bigger than a chi.
> 
> Ironically my friends nan has a little Jack Russell. he has bitten the postman twice and a delivery man, all three times he has just gotten warnings from the dog warden because he's only small dog. he also jumped into my friends sons car seat when he was a baby trying to bite him and more recently bit her two year old daughter (broke the skin and made her bleed) because she had food in her hands over the other side of the room, but because he's a little dog he gets away with it. but some people don't realise even a with small dog biting a child is a big thing and can cause a lot of damage.


That dog should not be kept in a situation where it can bite - in fact I do not believe in a biter being kept at all whatever its size. But you have to admit if a large dog had done the same there is a good chance it would have inflicted more damage. A small dog (Westie) got a control order on it because it chased owners' grandkids friends that were visiting - did not bite them. I think it disgusting it got as far as court or even that there was any complaint of any sort but there you are - something was done about it.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

Blitz said:


> That dog should not be kept in a situation where it can bite - in fact I do not believe in a biter being kept at all whatever its size. But you have to admit if a large dog had done the same there is a good chance it would have inflicted more damage. A small dog (Westie) got a control order on it because it chased owners' grandkids friends that were visiting - did not bite them. I think it disgusting it got as far as court or even that there was any complaint of any sort but there you are - something was done about it.


I agree. luckily he's not *my* nans dog else we would be refusing to visit unless he was gone. Yes a big dog can cause more damage in one bite but that shouldn't make a difference as to what is seen as fine a bite is a bite, a childs skin is so soft that any bite from even a small dog can cause serious damage. I've always said as much as I love my dog if he ever bit or tried to bite my daughter he would be gone, because she comes first. that would be the same even if I had a small dog


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

*The Op is not a newbie I don't think if they were how come they can quote as easily took me hours to work that out on the new layout Until someone told me it was the reply button I would still be trying to work out how to quote Hopefully she or she has gone to annoy another forum *


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh dear lol

Week from hell, this thread is the first thing to make me smile in days! 

Common sense still exists after all (though maybe not up north!)


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## Maria_1986 (May 15, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Sorry, but the goat memes and pics are wearing a bit thin... Could we have more.pics of devil dogs? Pleeeeease?


Cos you asked nicely 

Staffy type thing in process of killing the poor defenseless spaniel










Staffy type thing having been assessed by experienced, well thought of charity and having been deemed a danger to society










And proving herself as a typically dog aggressive staffy



















Now as other members of my 'breed' have killed, raped, abused, robbed and done generally awful things to other humans I think I shall go stick my head in the oven because even though I have never done any of those thing I still have the potential to, right?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Maria-1986 I wish we still had rep on this new board as I would most definitely be sending one your way. No better way to answer the critics.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Zaros said:


> *You do post some absolute dog sh1t!
> 
> But whilst we're on the subject of frequency;
> 
> Here's my 4sshole antenna. You're coming in loud and clear*


mmmm, matt smith! heaven in human form.

i mean look at this dog. dosent he look shifty? thats because he is a rottie x gsd x goat (true storey). many a chew toy have been destroyed by the viscous beast. Beware women and children! he will be after you next, unless you taste like ham, he hates ham.










and this monstostity of a collie. i mean look how she devours this stick. I had to sacrifice the stick to save my own life, she would have licked me to death. (not that you would want to kiss her, she is more likely to eat a pile of dog s**t than start munching on me. though what does that say about me? i taste worse than dog poop.)


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## knuckingfuts (Jan 11, 2014)

Vicious rottweiler bite.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

knuckingfuts said:


> Vicious rottweiler bite.


 Jesus- I hope you reported it.....


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## knuckingfuts (Jan 11, 2014)

Maria_1986 said:


> Cos you asked nicely
> 
> Staffy type thing in process of killing the poor defenseless spaniel
> 
> ...


Cant see them...


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

knuckingfuts said:


> Vicious rottweiler bite.


:O I have a wee scab just like that on my right hand...in nearly the same place and a Rottweiler.

I thought it happened when I was giving the cat her tablets - but it must have been Brock, he's trying to eat me in my sleep or something isn't he?


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## knuckingfuts (Jan 11, 2014)

tabulahrasa said:


> :O I have a wee scab just like that on my right hand...in nearly the same place and a Rottweiler.
> 
> I thought it happened when I was giving the cat her tablets - but it must have been Brock, he's trying to eat me in my sleep or something isn't he?


One flake of skin at a time.


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## Maria_1986 (May 15, 2011)

knuckingfuts said:


> Cant see them...


  I'm sorry I don't know why - the only think I could think of was that maybe the photobucket album they are in was private but just checked and it isn't so am now very confused (although that's not unusual!)


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Well, it's been 16 years and Alfie has yet to attack me, or anyone. The only thing he is a danger to is himself, mainly due to the fact he walks around with his eyes closed.

He here is, falling asleep, whilst sitting up with a chew is his gob.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Oh, Alfie...My heart! That's got to be one of the most adorable things I've ever seen.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Some devil dog photos from an hour ago  I really do fear for my life, everyday, honest.....


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## SurfCFC (Dec 16, 2014)

Knuckingfuts, I just want to say that your Signature photo of your dog is my favourite photo on this forum! He has the cutest, funniest (meant in the nicest possible way!) face I have seen - absolutely stunning  Looks like he's been at the beers as well from the bag in the background


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Well I feared for mine just now - 2 of my dogs had a fight, teeth were flashing, fur was flying and the noise was so upsetting. One dog went and hid in the other room and didn't come out until it was all over. No prizes for guessing the one not involved in the fight and hiding in the lounge was the rottie.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Are your dogs (and you) OK rottiepointerhouse? A previous dog of mine attacked one of my terriers while he was asleep once. Just walked into the room calmly after drinking, water still dripping from his mouth, stood over the sound asleep terrier for a second and attacked. It was unusual for him to bother the other dogs while they were asleep so I clocked on quick and there was no blood shed, but it's still an awful experience.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Maria_1986 said:


> Cos you asked nicely
> 
> Staffy type thing in process of killing the poor defenseless spaniel
> 
> ...


You can just see her about to attack at any given second. I mean, the sheer mischievous look in her eyes in pics 2 and 3. She's obviously just waiting for her moment to strike and smother you with kisses. 

Gorgeous.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

dogsaintdumb said:


> Are your dogs (and you) OK rottiepointerhouse? A previous dog of mine attacked one of my terriers while he was asleep once. Just walked into the room calmly after drinking, water still dripping from his mouth, stood over the sound asleep terrier for a second and attacked. It was unusual for him to bother the other dogs while they were asleep so I clocked on quick and there was no blood shed, but it's still an awful experience.


Yes we are OK although I feel a bit upset and shaky. The two boys have had fights before now - its Colt the GSP who has resource guarding issues and I stupidly left him in the lounge with a chew while the other one was in my office with me, as Arthur went to leave the office, Colt was coming in and jumped on Arthur who unusually retaliated and it escalated into a fight. Despite some blood and fur neither of them have any wounds just grazes so I've got them in separate rooms while their adrenaline levels settle down and until my OH gets home incase they kick off again. Poor Indie was terrified.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

darn i cant add a pic, but i have a mastiff x 30kg, a volpino italiano 10kg, and, a chinese crested 7.38kg all living together
guess who rules the roost and can even eat out of the mastiff x's bowl and make her back off?? 
[not that I allow it, just that I caught him doing it]

Also guess which one is the 'mother' to all the fosters that pass through here [clue: she weighs 30kg] big or small

but hey you cant fix stupid <3


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

All I can say OP if you are that worried about your Chi's then make sure you have good insurance and limit the number of dogs you walk at any one time. I have a 3.5 kilo dog and I tend to keep her near me as I not so much worry about her being attacked but that fact that a large dog even in play could snap her spine quite easily, so I try to make sure I have a hand free at any given time to pick her up if need be.

I know you are worried about the bull breeds but personally I would worry more about small terriers, a few people here have mentioned Border Terriers and I could get all stupid about that as they are my breed but they are right, I would actually trust a Staffie over a Border Terrier any day of the week, even though one of my dogs was attacked by one.

Your Chi's are obviously your life but they are no more important than any one else's dog. Every dog should have the right whether it be big or small to walk around without being attacked. Unfortunately there are many idiot owners with badly trained dogs.

If you can't beat them maybe you should join them and get one as a body guard for your dogs. It was a joke by the way even if not a good one.

I am not a Bull Breed lover but I find your attitude and prejudice towards these dogs quite disgusting.


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## Maria_1986 (May 15, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Well I feared for mine just now - 2 of my dogs had a fight, teeth were flashing, fur was flying and the noise was so upsetting. One dog went and hid in the other room and didn't come out until it was all over. No prizes for guessing the one not involved in the fight and hiding in the lounge was the rottie.


I hope everyone is ok and that the boys have settled down now and that Indie isn't too traumatised



LinznMilly said:


> You can just see her about to attack at any given second. I mean, the sheer mischievous look in her eyes in pics 2 and 3. She's obviously just waiting for her moment to strike and smother you with kisses.
> 
> Gorgeous.


Thank you 

I do sometimes fear for my life around her - when she has managed to find cat poop the resulting emissions could take out an army!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Gemmaa said:


> Basically someone came on to antagonise Bull breed/large breed owners, and successfully proved that there needs to be more than 8 mods on here.


On behalf of the mods can I just say that since the new forum started we no longer get reports delivered by email so don't actually see the reports until logging on. The reports have now been dealt with as deemed appropriate.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

lymorelynn said:


> On behalf of the mods can I just say that since the new forum started we no longer get reports delivered by email so don't actually see the reports until logging on. The reports have now been dealt with as deemed appropriate.


I'm not having a go at the mods - I think you do a great job , I just think it would be fairer on you all if there were more. It seems daft to only have 8 to keep an eye on such a big forum. I originally thought there were 8 just for the dog sections.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

An alternative solution would be to stop breeding dogs that are so tiny and vulnerable.

Only breeds that could take on a honey badger can continue to exist.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> Only breeds that could take on a honey badger can continue to exist.


I don't believe there is such a dog!


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

BlackadderUK said:


> I don't believe there is such a dog!


Boerboel










oh no more children in danger


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> Boerboel
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And here's a most unpredictable and dangerous dog trying to figure out how to get the wrapping off a kid before finally eating it.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Or how about this;

A dog and his take-away.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

BlackadderUK said:


> I don't believe there is such a dog!


We'll have to all start keeping honey badgers then.

At least it would be a level playing field when out for a walk.


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

My two devil dogs about to attack!


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Unbelievably, no baby chickens were harmed. However, I do feel that the dog personally believed that she was drowning the poultry and that she had ulterior motives.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Nonnie said:


> We'll have to all start keeping honey badgers then.
> 
> At least it would be a level playing field when out for a walk.


Unfair on all the dogs to be honest! Honey badgers are wicked, tough & totally fearless.... Lions generally give them a wide berth!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

BlackadderUK said:


> Unfair on all the dogs to be honest! Honey badgers are wicked, tough & totally fearless.... Lions generally give them a wide berth!


but there wouldn't be any dogs, as no breed could take on the awesomeness that is the honey badger. We'd all just have the HB, and dogs would wink out of existence.

On a more serious note, this is my old boy, sadly no longer with me, showing his love for a couple of kittens i hand reared.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

If only there was a law, like... All dog walkers must be accompanied by one Honey Badger per dog. When the dog walker comes into contact with another dog walker, Honey Badger duelling will commence. The owner of the winning Honey Badger will be legally entitled to continue in the direction he or she was going, and the owner of the loser Honey Badger will be required by law to immediately retreat 50 paces and remain 50 paces away from the winning Honey Badger's owner for the remainder of the dog walk.

There is no flaw in that plan, I assure you all.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

dogsaintdumb said:


> If only there was a law, like... All dog walkers must be accompanied by one Honey Badger per dog. When the dog walker comes into contact with another dog walker, Honey Badger duelling will commence. The owner of the winning Honey Badger will be legally entitled to continue in the direction he or she was going, and the owner of the loser Honey Badger will be required by law to immediately retreat 50 paces and remain 50 paces away from the winning Honey Badger's owner for the remainder of the dog walk.
> 
> There is no flaw in that plan, I assure you all.


Im envisioning Honey Badger with little holsters, walking 10 paces then firing.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

dogsaintdumb said:


> If only there was a law, like... All dog walkers must be accompanied by one Honey Badger per dog. When the dog walker comes into contact with another dog walker, Honey Badger duelling will commence. The owner of the winning Honey Badger will be legally entitled to continue in the direction he or she was going, and the owner of the loser Honey Badger will be required by law to immediately retreat 50 paces and remain 50 paces away from the winning Honey Badger's owner for the remainder of the dog walk.
> 
> There is no flaw in that plan, I assure you all.


What about the losing owners dogs though? Are they consigned to a diet of Bakers complete for month or is that too harsh?


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Nonnie said:


> Im envisioning Honey Badger with little holsters, walking 10 paces then firing.


That could be reality. We just gotta make it happen. Spread the word.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

What a ridiculous thread - only read the first 3 pages then got bored of the verbal diarrhoea from the OP. Here is a photo of my Rottweiler, on the hunt for her lunch.... oh wait, no - she's just making friends with a puppy. Sorry, my mistake - it's an easy one to make, being the owner of one of these "aggressive breeds" and all. Chuckle.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

BlackadderUK said:


> What about the losing owners dogs though? Are they consigned to a diet of Bakers complete for month or is that too harsh?


Maybe they could be named and shamed on a 50ft. memorial statue of Edward Baker.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Why are all the photos so huge - it is going to cut out anyone without good broadband. I have been ok so far but pretty sure some days my computer will be struggling.


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## penguin (Jan 2, 2013)

They look fine on my mobile!


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

TBH I thought the majority were average-sized photos, around 600/px horizontal. Much smaller than 400/px would distort the picture and make ones like the Rottie chasing down dinner hard to see.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

dogsaintdumb said:


> That could be reality. We just gotta make it happen. Spread the word.


Now, would the HB be trained with the holsters ... or would it become a breed/species standard?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dogsaintdumb said:


> TBH I thought the majority were average-sized photos, around 600/px horizontal. Much smaller than 400/px would distort the picture and make ones like the Rottie chasing down dinner hard to see.


but normally the photos have to be clicked on to be enlarged if you want to see them or they are a photobucket link. These are all full size and taking up so much space both physically and needing a good connection. I am not blaming anyone, it must be the way the new forum works but I do see problems plus not everyone wants photos as they scroll through posts.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> Now, would the HB be trained with the holsters ... or would it become a breed/species standard?


As time goes by, there would become breeders of Honey Badgers who focus on different traits. Some will choose to teach their young Honey Badgers how to operate guns and how to count paces, while others may choose to teach their Honey Badgers how to settle matters civilly and how to give a firm hand-shake.

I myself am dabbling with the idea of training my first Honey Badger to joust. I would have to find an appropriately sized horse and also maintain that horse, but I feel it would be a wise investment.


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## knuckingfuts (Jan 11, 2014)

Devil dog!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

knuckingfuts said:


> Devil dog!


Pffttt


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

I haven't posted on here for a while, but I feel compelled to do so now.

My Mum and I have a Lurcher (Greyhound x Collie) and a Greyhound. We will sometimes meet a Chihuahua on our night time walk. One night the Chihuahua bit our Lurcher's face and then proceeded to lunge at a passer by. The woman with the dog said nothing and didn't even apologise for her dog biting ours. Our dog did nothing apart from back away with a bewildered look on his face. But if he had defended himself then he would have been the one in trouble. If the other dog had been a bigger one then things could well have been different.

There is a lady and dog that our dogs and I occasionally meet at a nearby enclosed garden (where we let our dogs off lead) and there were a couple of times last year when the lady's dog bit our Greyhound Neamhnaid. The lady's dog is a mixed breed and is only about a third of the size of our two. Yet she still managed to draw blood. Since the second time, our dogs and K have not been off lead together and we always keep our distance from each other.

Also look at the first episode of this year's Britain's Got Talent. A Yorkie that was on stage behaved very aggressively towards one of the presenters. The audience and judges were in hysterics over the dog's antics. Well it would have been a different story if the Yorkie had been a Rottweiler or a Doberman. Such behaviour in ANY dog should NEVER be considered cute or funny.

As for Staffies. I am by no means a hater of the breed (when my Mum and I first started to look for a dog it was a Staffie that we wanted), but I can acknowledge that two things that are commonly said about them and APBTs are myths. Let's start with the 'nanny dog' myth. Archive searches of British, American and Canadian newspapers going as far back as the 18th century turn up not one single mention of "nanny dog" with regards to any breed until 1904 when the first stage production of Peter Pan opened featuring a nursemaid dog named Nana. Though J.M. Barrie patterned Nana after his Landseer Newfoundland, Nana has been portrayed by a St. Bernard, and an Old English Sheep Dog in subsequent stage and screen productions. There was no mention of Nana being a Staffie or APBT. It wasn't until the early 70's that a mention of the Staffie being a 'nursemaid's dog' was found. That was said by the then president of the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Then in the 80's, a SBT breeder said that her own dogs were 'nanny dogs'. The term 'nanny dog' has been twisted to include the APBT and has only been more commonly used over the past few decades in an attempt to soften the image of the breeds and to describe vintage photos of children with bull terriers. Advocacy groups such as Bad Rap have admitted to the fact that the whole 'nanny dog' thing is a myth. They said it endangers kids when dogs are labelled as 'nannies'. Here is one of their announcements:



__ https://www.facebook.com/BADRAP.org/posts/10151460774472399



I will now address the second myth and that is the one of APBTs and Staffies being better because they score more highly in certain temperament testing. A mention of it has already been made here and presumably it was in reference to the American Temperament Testing Society (ATTS). The ATTS was set-up by someone (not a behaviourist) to look for the best dogs to be used by the police and military and not the best dogs to be pets. The tests were designed to find dogs that are brave, game and able to show aggression. Dogs that are shy, that panic and that show avoidance score poorly. The testing generally takes about 15 minutes per dog and includes things like sudden gunfire, umbrellas being opened next to a dog and aggressive strangers intimidating a dog. Take Greyhounds for example. They typically score lower than APBTs and Staffies yet Greyhounds are regarded as being one of the most docile breeds. However I do know there have been cases of them biting and attacking people too.

You might think I am really against bull breeds, but I most definitely am not. I just won't lie or deny facts in order to promote the breeds. Like I said when my Mum and I were looking for a dog we wanted a Staffie. We found one we loved at the Dogs Trust, but he had been a stray (with an unknown history) and he was deemed unsuitable for us as we had never had experience with the breed. So we ended up going to the Edinburgh Dog and Cat Home and fell in love with a blue and white Lurcher. He became ours and we called him Brochan. He has been a fabulous dog. Anyway, a few months after getting Brochan, we got a phone call to say the Staffie we were interested in had been in a foster home and he would be suitable for us. Neamhnaid had not entered our lives at that point, so we took Brochan to meet Abe several times and we thought they would get on. We said we would adopt Abe. Their behavioural 'expert' said to take Abe into our back garden and to then let Brochan out. Well the first thing Brochan did was to go for Abe. He didn't try to bite him, but he was growling, all his hackles were up and his body had completely stiffened. Abe did nothing. We separated them and introduced them again later on. However, it became very clear that Brochan was not going to tolerate Abe in the house, so we very sadly had to take Abe back. He was a really sweet boy and did get on well with all the dogs we met when we took him on a walk. Attached is a photo of me with that savage beast.

To the OP. If you want to walk somewhere that has got plenty of space and various walking routes then I would highly recommend Harlaw and Threipmuir Reservoirs. You can get to them through Balerno and you can also access the Pentlands from the location. My Mum and I have been there with the dogs several times and we love it there.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

I am a small dog owner I have a small pug who in general is well socialised and dog friendly BUT there a a few of the larger breeds that he does not seem to like I think it is a fear thing and does react aggressively for no apparent reason so when I see one of these dogs approaching I reel him in and try to occupy him and distract him from seeing the other dog until it has passed on the other hand years ago I had 2 staffies and they were NEVER aggressive towards any other animal or person even when they were attacked by others they just stood and took it or tried to shelter behind me and the worse injury that one of them received was from a yorkshire terrier that latched on to my dogs throat and ripped quite a nasty chunk off and needed extensive vet care for a considerable time SMALL dogs CAN and DO do severe damage to large dogs but it is not the dogs fault it is the OWNERS for not training and controlling their dogs properly I am 66 and disabled and use a mobility scooter to walk my dog but I still manage to control him properly around other dogs large or small


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I haven't posted on here for a while, but I feel compelled to do so now.
> 
> My Mum and I have a Lurcher (Greyhound x Collie) and a Greyhound. We will sometimes meet a Chihuahua on our night time walk. One night the Chihuahua bit our Lurcher's face and then proceeded to lunge at a passer by. The woman with the dog said nothing and didn't even apologise for her dog biting ours. Our dog did nothing apart from back away with a bewildered look on his face. But if he had defended himself then he would have been the one in trouble. If the other dog had been a bigger one then things could well have been different.
> 
> ...


Errrr there is no getting away from the fact that Staffies, and Pits are generally GREAT with kids, very forgiving - IT IS A BREED TRAIT. Calling it "good with kids" or the "nanny dog" matters not- the sentiment is the same, no one has twisted anything.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Pffttt


 oHHH we have the same breed.......


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

dogsaintdumb said:


> As time goes by, there would become breeders of Honey Badgers who focus on different traits. Some will choose to teach their young Honey Badgers how to operate guns and how to count paces, while others may choose to teach their Honey Badgers how to settle matters civilly and how to give a firm hand-shake.
> 
> I myself am dabbling with the idea of training my first Honey Badger to joust. I would have to find an appropriately sized horse and also maintain that horse, but I feel it would be a wise investment.


Great idea! The length of the joust would give your honey badger the advantage over any dog/honey badger daft enough to get too close.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

You just seem to have a large population of **** owners near you. Find somewhere else to walk and loose the 'breedist' attitude.

FYI - One of our Golden Retrievers had a nasty incident with a Jack Russell, who just went for her for no reason and should not have been off lead, the JR was hanging off her throat and wouldn't let go, she had to have stitches ffs! Oh yes small dogs CAN do damage.
Dogs have teeth and if they want to use them and are free to do so (because of owner error) then they will, from the tiny Chi to the Irish Wolfhound.

Yes it's a pain and you probably think why should I go somewhere else when my dog isn't the problem? But it's making your walks unpleasant, so do something about it. Find somewhere else. They won't change, so you have too.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Wait..
So even tho the KC state that staff's are affectionate especially with children as part of their standard, the "nanny dog" phrase is a myth because there is no mention of it before the 70's?
Calling a dog a nanny dog does not endanger kids, the humans endanger the kids 

You may have researched staff's, but your post is clear that you haven't the first clue about the breed beyond what the internet states


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2015)

Yes, there is clearly a lot of misinformation about pit bulls and similar breeds.

The reason they were called nanny dogs is because one of the breed traits is a real affinity towards children. Not just tolerance, but a true desire to *be* with kids and interact with them. Turn Bates loose in a group of people, and he will on his own gravitate towards the children. He truly enjoys kids. 
Historically in this country, print and visual media is full of kids and pits. Petey of The Little Rascals fame was an APBT dual registered with AKC and UKC. 

The other thing that makes pitbulls great with kids relates to their fighting dog history. 
Traditionally in fights, the dog’s owner was not allowed to handle his own dog to avoid any question of cheating. Instead other dogmen would be in the pit with the dogs separating them and handling them during the fight. Man biters were ruthlessly culled. Any dog who showed any inclination to bite, even under the stress and emotion of a fight, was gotten rid of. 
Additionally, dogs were doctored after fights by their owners, and other dogmen. We’re talking stitching up wounds, cleaning them out, etc. without anesthesia, without any pain relief, and the dog was expected to tolerate all this again without any inclination to bite even in pain. This translates in to a dog who is hugely pain tolerant, so typical pitbulls aren’t going to react to the kid who accidentally steps on a foot, tail, or pulls a sore ear like other breeds might who do lash out in pain. 

Selectively breeding for zero human aggression and high pain tolerance, over time, this created a breed that is ridiculously safe to handle even in the most intense of situations. Even today in many breed enthusiast circles, the trait to not be human aggressive is taken so seriously that breeders will still PTS dogs who even snap at a human, regardless of reason. 

Obviously this doesn’t mean you let your toddler treat your dog disrespectfully, or annoy or hurt the dog, but there are so many situations where accidents happen and the unforeseen happens. Tails get stepped on, ears get infected and ear rubs hurt when they used to not. A dog like a pitbull is far less likely to react with teeth to this sort of thing than many other breeds - even those considered good with kids. 

Like I said, my OH deals with pitbulls and mixes on pretty much a daily basis, and not the ones owned by responsible owners either. No other breed is so mistreated and yet remains friendly and loving as well as this breed does.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Selectively breeding for zero human aggression and high pain tolerance, over time, this created a breed that is ridiculously safe to handle even in the most intense of situations. Even today in many breed enthusiast circles, the trait to not be human aggressive is taken so seriously that breeders will still PTS dogs who even snap at a human, regardless of reason.


I think as they are so popular that these traits are slowly being bred into their reactions towards dogs too. I know that in the event of a real fight breaking out they can be lethal because of their background but the majority of dog interactions arent proper fights.... most of the ones Ive seen seem very mellow and not at all interested in ramping up negative encounters.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Errrr there is no getting away from the fact that Staffies, and Pits are generally GREAT with kids, very forgiving - IT IS A BREED TRAIT. Calling it "good with kids" or the "nanny dog" matters not- the sentiment is the same, no one has twisted anything.


I am sorry, but labelling an entire breed a 'nanny dog' and even calling it a breed trait is dangerous. It sets unfair expectations on the dogs and I do wonder how many people have gotten a Staffie or APBT thinking they would automatically be good with their kids because breed advocates have told them they are 'nanny dogs'. Then the dog goes and attacks their kids. Besides if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait of the SBT then why is it that so many kids have been seriously injured or killed by them? That would not be the case if it were actually a breed trait. My Lurcher is brilliant with kids, but there is NO way I am going to call all Lurchers 'nanny dogs'. And if somebody were to come up and tell me that Greyhounds were 'nanny dogs' I would tell them that Neamhnaid is not good with kids as she gets nervous around them. Do you see where I am going with this?



StormyThai said:


> Wait..
> 
> So even tho the KC state that staff's are affectionate especially with children as part of their standard, the "nanny dog" phrase is a myth because there is no mention of it before the 70's?
> 
> ...


See my reply to Lexiedhb. I will also add that for a good long while I believed the whole 'nanny dog' thing and would even use it when defending Staffies and APBTs. However I used the internet to do my research (as the internet can actually have factual information on it) and discovered that it is not true. I have come across many people who think that APBTs and Staffies have always been known as 'nanny dogs' and that the original purpose of the APBT in America was to watch over the kids while the parents went out to work. That most definitely is not true. I completely agree that it is down to humans to ensure the safety of their dogs and kids, but people should not become lackadaisical just because they have a Staffie or APBT. The same precautions should be taken with them as any other breed. In fact I am not a fan of breed stereotyping in general. At the weekend my Mum and I had our dogs out for a long off lead walk. They were having a whale of a time running about and Neamhnaid especially had lots of energy to burn. I just wondered to myself how many Greyhounds are denied the chance of having good walks like that because people actually believe they are lazy dogs that only need one or two 20 minute walks a day. A friend of the family has a Westie and he was frightened of bringing her to the house when we first got Neamhnaid as a Dachshund breeder he knows told him that Greyhounds kill small dogs. Neamhnaid proved the ignorant breeder wrong as she has been fine with our friend's Westie. I also found the OP's derogatory description of the girl in the track suit with the Rottweiler to be quite insulting. Some of my friends wear tracksuits and dress their dogs up in blingy collars and leads and they are lovely people and their dogs are lovely too. So I most definitely am not a fan of stereotyping.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I am sorry, but labelling an entire breed a 'nanny dog' and even calling it a breed trait is dangerous. It sets unfair expectations on the dogs and I do wonder how many people have gotten a Staffie or APBT thinking they would automatically be good with their kids because breed advocates have told them they are 'nanny dogs'. Then the dog goes and attacks their kids. Besides if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait of the SBT then why is it that so many kids have been seriously injured or killed by them? That would not be the case if it were actually a breed trait. My Lurcher is brilliant with kids, but there is NO way I am going to call all Lurchers 'nanny dogs'. And if somebody were to come up and tell me that Greyhounds were 'nanny dogs' I would tell them that Neamhnaid is not good with kids as she gets nervous around them. Do you see where I am going with this?
> 
> See my reply to Lexiedhb. I will also add that for a good long while I believed the whole 'nanny dog' thing and would even use it when defending Staffies and APBTs. However I used the internet to do my research (as the internet can actually have factual information on it) and discovered that it is not true. I have come across many people who think that APBTs and Staffies have always been known as 'nanny dogs' and that the original purpose of the APBT in America was to watch over the kids while the parents went out to work. That most definitely is not true. I completely agree that it is down to humans to ensure the safety of their dogs and kids, but people should not become lackadaisical just because they have a Staffie or APBT. The same precautions should be taken with them as any other breed. In fact I am not a fan of breed stereotyping in general. At the weekend my Mum and I had our dogs out for a long off lead walk. They were having a whale of a time running about and Neamhnaid especially had lots of energy to burn. I just wondered to myself how many Greyhounds are denied the chance of having good walks like that because people actually believe they are lazy dogs that only need one or two 20 minute walks a day. A friend of the family has a Westie and he was frightened of bringing her to the house when we first got Neamhnaid as a Dachshund breeder he knows told him that Greyhounds kill small dogs. Neamhnaid proved the ignorant breeder wrong as she has been fine with our friend's Westie. I also found the OP's derogatory description of the girl in the track suit with the Rottweiler to be quite insulting. Some of my friends wear tracksuits and dress their dogs up in blingy collars and leads and they are lovely people and their dogs are lovely too. So I most definitely am not a fan of stereotyping.


So in the course of your "research" you also found a whole load of factual evidence supporting the fact they ARE great with kids, bounce back very easily from handler error, and are loyal to a fault around humans despite bad treatment/handling? No one is saying ALL pits and staffies are great with kids, no one is saying that should be taken for granted or exploited, or that kids should be left alone with them (as they shouldnt with ANY breed) but same way you get a few Labs/ Goldens who dont care for retrieval, does not make the entire breed useless at traits which have been bred into them (as Ouesi explained). They also have their downsides - they can be dog intolerant, and quick to challenge. You do have to take traits (good and bad) into consideration or whats the point researching a breed at all? if it really is always just pot luck?
KC/ thousands of staffie/ pit owners are clearly wrong........


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I do wonder how many people have gotten a Staffie or APBT thinking they would automatically be good with their kids because breed advocates have told them they are 'nanny dogs'.


Probably a similar number of people that get labs because they are good family dogs.

The fact of the matter is that staffy's and APBT's are very human orientated dogs, that is not an internet myth, that is fact. Of course there will be exceptions with all the indiscriminate breeding but that's the case with any breed of dog. The exceptions do not mean that the rest of the breed can not be described as such...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> So in the course of your "research" you also found a whole load of factual evidence supporting the fact they ARE great with kids, bounce back very easily from handler error, and are loyal to a fault around humans despite bad treatment/handling? No one is saying ALL pits and staffies are great with kids, no one is saying that should be taken for granted or exploited, but same way you get a few Labs/ Goldens who dont care for retrieval, does not make the entire breed useless at traits which have been bred into them (as Ouesi explained) KC/ thousands of staffie/ pit owners are clearly wrong........


I was just going to say similar. A breed trait to me at least means a likely characteristic not a definite one. My GSP for instance should be a good hunter and not be nervous or flighty yet he is terrified of loud noises to the point of shaking and flattening himself on the ground if he can't get to somewhere to hide.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Yup - "trait" does not = definite , but likely.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I am sorry, but labelling an entire breed a 'nanny dog' and even calling it a breed trait is dangerous. It sets unfair expectations on the dogs and I do wonder how many people have gotten a Staffie or APBT thinking they would automatically be good with their kids because breed advocates have told them they are 'nanny dogs'. Then the dog goes and attacks their kids. Besides if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait of the SBT then why is it that so many kids have been seriously injured or killed by them? That would not be the case if it were actually a breed trait. My Lurcher is brilliant with kids, but there is NO way I am going to call all Lurchers 'nanny dogs'. And if somebody were to come up and tell me that Greyhounds were 'nanny dogs' I would tell them that Neamhnaid is not good with kids as she gets nervous around them. Do you see where I am going with this?


Breed traits are breed traits. It means realistic expectations of the breed. Nothing more, nothing less. 
A desire to hold things in their mouth is a retriever breed trait.
Prey drive to fluffy things that move quickly is a sighthound breed trait.
A desire to control things that move in groups is a herder breed trait.
High pain tolerance and low to zero inclination to re-direct on to a human even when stressed is a bully-breed trait. This coupled with a strong affinity to children does indeed make staffies, pitties, and amStaffs a smart choice for a family with children.

Now, as to your statement about how many kids have been seriously injured or killed. Let's look at those stats again.
1) Pitbulls are the ONLY breed that gets recorded as a "type". Let me explain. When a golden retriever bites a child, that bite gets recorded in government documents as a golden retriever bite. If the dog looks like a golden, but is not a golden, the bite gets recorded as "mixed breed" or "breed unknown."
Now, because pitbulls are classed as a "type" and not a breed, ANY dog that remotely looks like an APBT, and AmStaff, a Staffordshire bull terrier or any mix of the above, that dog gets recorded as a "pitbull". That means if a labXboxer who ends up looking like a pitbull type bites someone, that bite gets recorded as a pitbull bite. Not a lab bite, not a boxer bite, but a pitbull bite. And this happens repeatedly. 
The CDC themselves said that these stats are not reliable when it comes to determining the breed most likely to bite.

2) Looking at those bites again. Don't look at breed, look at the environment. How many of those fatalities involved a loved family pet. Look again. Most of them (all?) involve an unattended child, a dog who was not kept inside as a pet but outside on a chain, a dog who was used for breeding... This is where we are hugely failing dogs and children, by not looking at the environmental circumstances and human behavior that contributes to the fatality. We know that breed is not a contributing factor, we know that human behavior IS. So when we only consider breed and not how the dog is handled and what behavior led up to the bite, ZERO difference in preventing future tragedies. It's incredibly frustrating.



catz4m8z said:


> I think as they are so popular that these traits are slowly being bred into their reactions towards dogs too. I know that in the event of a real fight breaking out they can be lethal because of their background but the majority of dog interactions arent proper fights.... most of the ones Ive seen seem very mellow and not at all interested in ramping up negative encounters.


Pitbulls as fighting dogs are not really fighters. Some are, I'm sure, but the vast majority of them are more what I would call "adrenaline junkie" dogs. They like the rush. A fight gives them that rush. But they're equally happy to get that adrenaline high other ways - which is why they do so well in all sorts of crazy dog sports. They really enjoy a physical contest.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yes, there is clearly a lot of misinformation about pit bulls and similar breeds.
> 
> The reason they were called nanny dogs is because one of the breed traits is a real affinity towards children. Not just tolerance, but a true desire to *be* with kids and interact with them. Turn Bates loose in a group of people, and he will on his own gravitate towards the children. He truly enjoys kids.
> Historically in this country, print and visual media is full of kids and pits. Petey of The Little Rascals fame was an APBT dual registered with AKC and UKC.
> ...


That is not true. There are records proving that human aggressive fighting dogs were not only kept alive, but bred from too. Check out http://www.centralcoastkennel.com/en/category/best-ever/ and look at Honeybunch and Zebo. This is a report from a 1976 fight:

"July-August 1976
4th Match C. Beasley vs Starsky & Hutch M65 Ref. B. Clouse
Beasley's red and white handled by Joe Alvarado. Hutch handling a black. At the scales, while weighing the red and white, who is a bad man-eater, Alvarado lost control of the dog and headed right for Earl Maloney and bit him in the chest. Bill Carr kicked him loose and was bitten himself, very bad, just above the rib cage. That big crazy dog then headed for the crowd with his mouth wide open. Some one could have been seriously hurt if Bill Carr hadn't intercepted again, this time getting bit on the leg, through his boot. They finally got the dog under control and the match was on. Alvarado got fouled out for some bad handling in his corner and the Winner: Starsky & Hutch's black dog.
It would be a good idea to muzzle know man-eaters to prevent something like this from happening again."

Also look at this - http://pitbullyard.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=11&cntnt01returnid=61 That dog's line is still going today.

Some dog fighters might have killed human aggressive dogs, but some clearly did not.

So please stop with all this misinformation. I am completely against BSL and like I said before I am not a fan of breed generalisations, but I will not perpetuate myths. And you are not doing yourselves any favours by doing so.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

So you just ignore EVERYTHING else that SHOWS these dogs ARE generally good with kids? IT IS NOT A MYTH..... oh and this does not really have anything to do with BSL.....

Also look at this - http://pitbullyard.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=11&cntnt01returnid=61 That dog's line is still going today.

Yup - and? Where is the human aggression part or am i missing something?


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

ouesi pretty much summed it up with the "breed traits" part of her post.

Breed traits exist and I'm not sure what's going on. Sure, there are Pit Bulls who aren't friendly with people. Like there are Labradors who don't enjoy treats and Jack Russells who have no prey drive. Kind of silly to say that a breed trait doesn't exist because sometimes dogs of that breed don't exhibit the trait.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Here's an idea...

How about getting your facts from actual experience with bull breeds, or at least from the mouths of people that are experienced with bull breeds.
Trying to argue breed traits with people experienced in the breeds with little more than biased internet sites to back your argument just makes you look silly if I'm honest 

To completely disregard a breed trait does the breed no favours!


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> So you just ignore EVERYTHING else that SHOWS these dogs ARE generally good with kids? IT IS NOT A MYTH..... oh and this does not really have anything to do with BSL.....
> 
> Also look at this - http://pitbullyard.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=11&cntnt01returnid=61 That dog's line is still going today.
> 
> Yup - and? Where is the human aggression part or am i missing something?


Yes you are. Near the bottom of the page it says this:

"We have all heard the Bobby Hall stories about having to chunk BULLY his feed and getting on cars and climbing trees to get away from him. If he had been mine during these times, he would have never had to worry about BENNY BOB killing him. This, too, is a unique situation as BULLY did not produce a high percentage of maneaters, to my knowledge."

If the dog hadn't been human aggressive then why did the guy have to scramble on cars and climb trees to get away from the dog? The author also said he didn't think Bullyson produced a high percentage of 'maneaters' so that would suggest the dog did produce some human aggressive dogs.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Here's an idea...
> 
> How about getting your facts from actual experience with bull breeds, or at least from the mouths of people that are experienced with bull breeds.
> Trying to argue breed traits with people experienced in the breeds with little more than biased internet sites to back your argument just makes you look silly if I'm honest
> ...


Oh but I have. I have read the words from the dog fighters themselves. They had plenty of experience with the dogs yet by their own telling's some of the human aggressive dogs weren't killed.

I am sorry, but advocates such as yourself need to acknowledge FACTS instead of spreading myths that can be disproven. You are only giving the haters further fuel for their fire.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

So you have read a few links on the internet and you think you know enough to debunk a breed trait?

OK then!


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Lineage and selective breeding plays a part. You can't deny a breed trait because a breeder of the dog didn't strive to cement that trait into his or her lines. I'll try and explain a bit more, but I've typed this up in various ways already and am having a hard time explaining the way I view this subject, so bear with me...

Decent American Dobermans bred for conformation show would likely fail miserably at a BH test or in IPO. The line was bred to fit a physical standard and be able to be comfortable manhandled by an unfamiliar judge while being surrounded by other unfamiliar people.

On the same note, European and Northern American Dobermans bred for working and sport would likely fail miserably in a conformation show ring. They're set heavier (undesired) with less desire to be approached and touched by a stranger and would be on edge surrounded by so many unfamiliar dogs and people, because they don't need to be comfortable in that situation to excel at the work the line is bred to do.

They're all the same breed and they all possess some level of the same breed traits. Stranger wary dogs aren't desired in conformation, and stranger friendly dogs aren't desired in protection sports. It doesn't mean dogs from different lines have different breed traits...They still have the same traits, just some traits in some lines are less pronounced.

This happens in the vast majority of breeds. Regardless of the lineage, the breed will still possess the same breed traits. But a show-line Border Collie isn't likely to be as successful a herding dog as a working line BC. We breed the same breed for different reasons now, which results in varying levels of the breed traits being displayed by individual dogs.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> So you have read a few links on the internet and you think you know enough to debunk a breed trait?
> 
> OK then!


Not a few - a lot! Since you are such an expert then why don't you tell me why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait? Why do people say that human aggressive fighting dogs were killed when it has been proven that not all of them were?


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm not an expert on Bully breeds, but I would assume it's for the reason I stated in the post above yours.

The breeding plays a part. People orientation and affection towards kids will be watered down if it's not focused on by the breeder.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Not a few - a lot! Since you are such an expert then why don't you tell me why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait? Why do people say that human aggressive fighting dogs were killed when it has been proven that not all of them were?


There hasn't been so many cases of JUST staffords and pits..... that is the media for you. We will only know about what THEY want to tell us


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## alan1971 (Apr 1, 2015)

i used to own a female staff, she was a very loving pet, great with the family and loved kids, but she never liked any other dog and would go for them if she had the chance, i could never let her off the lead.
before the staff i had a german sheppard, and she was very placid with other dogs.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Since you are such an expert then why don't you tell me why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait?


I think you may find this study quite interesting. Especially these sections:



> The researchers identified a striking co-occurrence of multiple, controllable factors: no able-bodied person being present to intervene (87.1%); the victim having no familiar relationship with the dog(s) (85.2%); the dog(s) owner failing to neuter/spay the dog(s)(84.4%); a victim's compromised ability, whether based on age or physical condition, to manage their interactions with the dog(s) (77.4%); the owner keeping dog(s) as resident dog(s), rather than as family pet(s) (76.2%); the owner's prior mismanagement of the dog(s) (37.5%); and the owner's abuse or neglect of dog(s) (21.1%). Four or more of these factors were present in 80.5% of cases; *breed was not one of those factors.*





> The authors of the new JAVMA paper reported that the breed(s) of the dog or dogs could not be reliably identified in more than 80% of cases. *News accounts disagreed with each other and/or with animal control reports in a significant number of incidents, casting doubt on the reliability of breed attributions and more generally for using media reports as a primary source of data for scientific studies.*


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Not a few - a lot! Since you are such an expert then why don't you tell me why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait? Why do people say that human aggressive fighting dogs were killed when it has been proven that not all of them were?


1. I never claimed I was an "expert"
2. So many? As has already been explained to you, breeding has a huge part to play in all this. Just as there are retrievers that don't retrieve there will be bullies that show human aggression.

Proving that a few retrievers don't retrieve does not equate to them not having a breed trait to retrieve, just as proving a few bullies have shown human aggression does not equate to staff's and ABPT's not being human orientated dogs!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

How often do we actually SEE the dogs responsible for these attacks? 

I bet you bottom dollar that very few are pedigree dogs, and are just churned out generic types; possibly not even related to the Staffordshire at all.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> I will now address the second myth and that is the one of APBTs and Staffies being better because they score more highly in certain temperament testing. A mention of it has already been made here and presumably it was in reference to the American Temperament Testing Society (ATTS).


Why make that assumption that this was the test referenced? In EVERY temperament test that I know of dealing with multiple breeds, so called "dangerous breeds" have been shown to be no more dangerous than other breeds in terms of temperament. One example : http://www.researchgate.net/profile...cf203f155c5e451.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Now can you show any study which shows anything in comparison where so called dangerous breeds are more dangerous due to temperament on testing, not using something like a poll?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

In regards to the comment on "why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids".. Ignoring the fact you can't get true figures as most people don't have a clue on breeds and most common is "mixed"...

A study by the National Canine Research Council (US) showed a simple example of biased reporting by the media

in 2007 between August 18th and August 21st:

August 18, 2007 : A dog reported to be a Labrador mix bit a 70 year old man sending him to the hospital in critical condition. Police officers arrived at the scene and the dog was shot after charging the officers. This incident was reported in one article and only in the local paper.

August 19, 2007 : A 16 month old child received fatal head and neck injuries from a mixed breed dog. This incident was reported two times by the local paper only

August 20, 2007: A 6 year old boy was hospitalized after receiving sever bites to the head by a medium sized mixed breed dog.
This incident was reported in one article and only in the local paper.

August 21, 2007 : A 59 year old woman received severe injuries requiring hospitalization from an incident in her home involving two dogs reported to be “pit bull” dogs. This incident was reported in over two hundred and thirty articles in national and international newspapers, as well as major television news networks, including CNN, MSNBC and FOX.


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## alan1971 (Apr 1, 2015)

pedigree or mongrel, any dog can attack, when i was a paperboy at 15 years old back in the 80's i was attacked and bitten by a german sheppard who was in his own garden.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Greyhounds do not have the;"lets chase small furries" trait, read it in the tinterweb.............


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Goblin said:


> In regards to the comment on "why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids".. Ignoring the fact you can't get true figures as most people don't have a clue on breeds and most common is "mixed"...
> 
> A study by the National Canine Research Council (US) showed a simple example of biased reporting by the media
> 
> ...


The story about the Jack Russell killing a baby a couple of years ago made national headline news. The two most recent Malamute attacks made national headline news. The woman that received the first face transplant after her Retriever mauled her made international headline news. There have been attacks by other breeds like Akitas, Rottweilers, and Border Collies that have made headline news. There have also been attacks by APBTs and SBTs that have gone unreported to the media or that have only been picked up by smaller more local news outlets.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Why make that assumption that this was the test referenced? In EVERY temperament test that I know of dealing with multiple breeds, so called "dangerous breeds" have been shown to be no more dangerous than other breeds in terms of temperament. One example : http://www.researchgate.net/profile...cf203f155c5e451.pdf?origin=publication_detail
> 
> Now can you show any study which shows anything in comparison where so called dangerous breeds are more dangerous due to temperament on testing, not using something like a poll?


Because the ATTS results are so often brought up in debates like this. That is why I assumed it was the ATTS results that were being referred to.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Greyhounds do not have the;"lets chase small furries" trait, read it in the tinterweb.............


Nope - not all of them do. That's why so many of them can live happily with cats and other small furries.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Not a few - a lot! Since you are such an expert then why don't you tell me why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait? Why do people say that human aggressive fighting dogs were killed when it has been proven that not all of them were?


I was going to ask you to provide links to support these allegations, but did a quick Google instead. I suspect that's where you and the OP both got your information from.

FB and forums don't equate to irrefutable proof, and my own (admittedly brief - feeling very lethargic today) Google/research session conjured only anecdotal evidence (one even admitted it was based on news reports) and nondescript lists which don't cite their sources, so, for all we know, their authors could be making them up.

The only "paper" that looked even remotely official was the original study referred to in the link posted in LurcherGreyhoundGirl's post, #350 - the one which the study itself disproved.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Nope - not all of them do. That's why so many of them can live happily with cats and other small furries.


But the majority do........ hence it is a trait, that can be expected.......not a definate


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I really am finding it amusing that someone with zero experience with a breed has come on trying to tell people with vast experience in the breeds that a breed trait is a myth.

It really is laughable!


The main sad bit is that this is a view we have to educate on a daily basis...the media really did do a job on bull breeds characters


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

I found that study incredibly informative @SingingWhippet if I could rep you I would! Thanks!

The sad fact is, all we can do is tell people: "Don't blame the dog, blame the person on the end of the lead." until we're blue in the face and hopefully we can open a few people's eyes to the truth and refute the overwhelming ignorance and damnation of the bull breeds and, so called, aggressive breeds.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> The story about the Jack Russell killing a baby a couple of years ago made national headline news. The two most recent Malamute attacks made national headline news. The woman that received the first face transplant after her Retriever mauled her made international headline news. There have been attacks by other breeds like Akitas, Rottweilers, and Border Collies that have made headline news. There have also been attacks by APBTs and SBTs that have gone unreported to the media or that have only been picked up by smaller more local news outlets.


Yet how do you know they are the only ones? You are relying on media to inform you and they simply want to sell you stories. Demonising a breed such as a labrador would be politically unsound. Out of interest what where the headlines in question. Something like "Staffie mauls child" vs "Dog attacks child" with the name of the breed hidden in the text of the story? Tell me which one causing more negative breed recognition?

Of course we also need to tell the difference between dog on dog aggression and dog vs people aggression in relation to the original post. They are two different things.I am perfectly happy to admit that many bull breeds may have a tendency for dog on dog aggression. However this is not normally something which is unable to be managed.

http://www.ryanomeara.com/fatal-dog-attacks/ is an interesting article concerning dog vs people. Once again it points out breed isn't the important factor.

We also have https://positively.com/contributors...ing-the-ability-to-get-along-with-each-other/ which looks at dog vs dog. Again breed isn't mentioned. Breed doesn't matter, education of both dog and owner matters. Similar examples have already been mentioned. We have an Old English Bulldog who can be reactive towards other dogs. Why.. she was attacked in the past by others, including small dogs which "couldn't do any harm". Maybe not as much damage as a large dog but then that's only describing physical damage, not psychological damage which is too often ignored in terms of long term effects.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> That is not true. There are records proving that human aggressive fighting dogs were not only kept alive, but bred from too. Check out http://www.centralcoastkennel.com/en/category/best-ever/ and look at Honeybunch and Zebo. This is a report from a 1976 fight:
> 
> "July-August 1976
> 4th Match C. Beasley vs Starsky & Hutch M65 Ref. B. Clouse
> ...


Oh good grief. 
ONE tale of a HA fighting dog does not negate an entire breed history. And clearly from the account, you can tell that keeping him alive was unusual. IOW it WAS common for HA dogs to be culled.
So if I can find a greyhound who's not interested in chasing bunnies (which I can), does that mean that greyhounds are not prone as a breed to prey drive? Of course not. The plural of anectode it not data 



LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Not a few - a lot! Since you are such an expert then why don't you tell me why there have been so many cases of SBTs and APBTs killing kids if being a 'nanny dog' was a breed trait? Why do people say that human aggressive fighting dogs were killed when it has been proven that not all of them were?


Did you even read my post? If one breed is represented in statistics including all the mixes of that breed and dogs who sort of kind of look like that breed, do you not see how that might HUGELY skew the results? Add in environmental factors like the dog living on a chain, and you end up with fatalities. Not a breed issue, a human issue.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Nope - not all of them do. That's why so many of them can live happily with cats and other small furries.


Yeah, until the small furry moves quickly or acts like prey, then all of a sudden the greyhound who seemed fine with the kitty and slept in the same bed together all of a sudden acts like a normal dog of that breed.

Ignoring breed traits is just as stupid as saying they don't exist.

Would you recommend a sighthound as a good pet with small furries? Of course not. For the same reason breed experts often DO recommend a staffie or similar for a family with children.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

"Goblin said:


> "We have an Old English Bulldog who can be reactive towards other dogs. Why.. she was attacked in the past by others, including small dogs which "couldn't do any harm". Maybe not as much damage as a large dog but then that's only describing physical damage, not psychological damage which is too often ignored in terms of long term effects.


And imo the physical damage can be the least of it in the long run  A dog can be physically healed and back to normal within a few weeks or months and yet the psychological damage from being attacked, even if not severely hurt, can last a lifetime.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

This is a really unrelated, off-topic post...I can't contribute any more to the breed trait true/false discussion than I already have, but just felt like dropping in one last time as I see "blame the owner, not the dog" throughout this thread and haven't really addressed it directly, despite the fact it's a topic close to my heart. It's one of those topics that could become heated real quick, so I've tried avoiding it until now. This is my opinion on the matter

I've handled various other breeds and breed mixes during my time helping out at local pet dog classes and with my home-grown dog boarding business (I say "business" loosely) and simply enjoying dogs. I live with various breeds of dog right now, but I would class myself as an experienced handler of Dobermans. I've raised litters of Doberman puppies, fostered Dobermans, have owned several and handled several others belonging to other people. Up until late last month I had two of my own, though sadly one has passed away now.

For all the experience and knowledge I have, I still ended up with a dog who was handler aggressive, dog aggressive, human aggressive, unpredictable (reacted differently to the same situation presented multiple times) and had to be under lock and key for the majority of his time with me. Extensive medical assessments, training sessions, behaviourist assessments and asking all the basic questions that I'd asked years before even obtaining a Doberman, and I still had to have that dog put to sleep.

I spent a long time trying to work out what I had done wrong. I'd had this dog from a puppy, he was from decent lines, he had a good start and was given early socialisation. I'd planned to get him into a sport and worked hard early on to set him up for success, and still failed. The last trainer I took him to was supportive and I can't thank the guy enough for the time and effort he was willing to put into my dog. Toward the end of my dog's life, the trainer told me something that has stuck and made me think differently. "Some dogs aren't meant to be pets and that's okay."

I'm sure it could be worded differently, but I do believe that, while the vast majority of badly behaved dogs are indeed badly behaved because of mistakes on the handler's part, some dogs simply don't cope well with the life we want them to lead. My dog had a tough break and was euthanized after trying to attack one of my own dogs who he had grown up with, and then seeming to make the conscious decision to redirect his aggression onto me before I could remove myself and the other dog from the room. I must have been stuck with my back against that wall for 5 minutes before he backed off!

I acknowledge and agree that most badly behaved dogs are that way because of the handlers. When I see a dog trying to attack another, my first thought is "that handler needs to change something" and not "wow, that dog simply isn't meant for this world <3". Maybe that's hypocritical, but as has been implied by some users here, *most* badly behaved dogs are just reflecting the effort their handlers put into them and that is my belief as well. I know that the people here are already aware that there are exception dogs like the one I had, so there really is no need for me to get defensive. I still do. 

When I had my dog, I spent hours trawling the internet for answers and came across a lot of forums that I would read through. This is kind of my pat on the back, it's-not-always-your-fault to anybody else trawling these forums who is in a similar situation to the one I was in back in 2010 with my dog.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Amazing how things change. Haven't been here for a few days. Found the forum completely changed, not for the better. And a 37 page thread originated by a lunatic troll.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The whole "no bad dogs, only bad owners" and "it's all in how you raise them" shite makes me see red. If it's all in how they're raised then Spen should not be the almost bombproof dog he is. And Rupert came to me with his issues (I didn't know about them before adopting him) and I spent years and god only knows how much money trying to fix him. Bad owner? Really? Yet I often had people telling me it was all my fault, I must have wanted an aggressive dog, must have done something to make him that way, it was all in how I treated him etc etc. I don't believe dogs are bad in a moral sense but I do believe dogs can have issues that are absolutely nothing to do with them having a bad owner or being "raised wrong".

Personally I don't judge anyone because their dog has issues. I may judge them on how they handle those issues though. If for example they think it's perfectly fine to let their aggressive dog off leash to attack other dogs or people then I would consider them a bad owner and blame them fully for a lack of control and precautions taken. But not just because their dog is aggressive or fearful or whatever.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Both LeighPing's and Gizmo&CujotheChis' posts have lead to some pretty interesting discussions. I do get annoyed, but I can't say they haven't taught me anything...While I might not have learned anything new, I have learned that the majority of dog-y people "know where it's at" when it comes to this type of thing. 

Three cheers for the modern day troll...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The bad owners are the ones who don't control their aggressive dogs properly, whatever the size or breed involved. It's not all breed traits or how they're raised but it is often a combination of both.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

dogsaintdumb said:


> This is a really unrelated, off-topic post...I can't contribute any more to the breed trait true/false discussion than I already have, but just felt like dropping in one last time as I see "blame the owner, not the dog" throughout this thread and haven't really addressed it directly, despite the fact it's a topic close to my heart. It's one of those topics that could become heated real quick, so I've tried avoiding it until now. This is my opinion on the matter
> 
> I've handled various other breeds and breed mixes during my time helping out at local pet dog classes and with my home-grown dog boarding business (I say "business" loosely) and simply enjoying dogs. I live with various breeds of dog right now, but I would class myself as an experienced handler of Dobermans. I've raised litters of Doberman puppies, fostered Dobermans, have owned several and handled several others belonging to other people. Up until late last month I had two of my own, though sadly one has passed away now.
> 
> ...


If I could rep you I would 
Although all my dogs are "hand me downs" so I never feel the need to defend myself it saddens me that some feel as tho they failed because their dog has developed issues.

The only time I feel that "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners" can be used in the correct context is with lack of management. It's not exactly the dogs fault that the owner failed to control them to the point of them hurting another, it is the fault of the irresponsible owner!
Obviously accidents (as in failure of equipment, basically an incident that is completely out of the owners control) aside it isn't hard to make sure an aggressive dog does not cause harm IMHO.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> The whole "no bad dogs, only bad owners" and "it's all in how you raise them" shite makes me see red. If it's all in how they're raised then Spen should not be the almost bombproof dog he is. And Rupert came to me with his issues (I didn't know about them before adopting him) and I spent years and god only knows how much money trying to fix him. Bad owner? Really? Yet I often had people telling me it was all my fault, I must have wanted an aggressive dog, must have done something to make him that way, it was all in how I treated him etc etc. I don't believe dogs are bad in a moral sense but I do believe dogs can have issues that are absolutely nothing to do with them having a bad owner or being "raised wrong".
> 
> *Personally I don't judge anyone because their dog has issues. I may judge them on how they handle those issues though*. If for example they think it's perfectly fine to let their aggressive dog off leash to attack other dogs or people then I would consider them a bad owner and blame them fully for a lack of control and precautions taken. But not just because their dog is aggressive or fearful or whatever.


I think this comes over in your posts when you reply to a thread with an owner who's having problems with their dog.  I know I've certainly benefitted from your calm reassurance and non-judgemental attitude in the past.

We don't all have the same skill set. We're not all designed to be able to "fix" problem dogs. But where the owner deserves the blame is if/when they refuse to accept their dog has an issue that need to be addressed and just buries their head in the sand. I don't expect anyone whose dog has a problem, to necessarily be able to completely fix that behaviour, but they could - and should - at least try.

And it doesn't just have to be a major issue like DA/HA. Simply joking that your dog does what it likes and takes no notice of you when offlead is a problem that needs to be addressed and frequently isn't.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Sorry a little of topic

I really get feed-up of big dogs and their owns getting moaned at all the time.

*Some* small dogs, their owners and flexi leads cause more problem than any thing else (_*in my opinion*_) of cause my dog is going to react to a small dog running at him at full speed with the owner round the corner with no idea there is a dog the other side, then if he reacts I got a dangerous dog and it's not his fault. Why is it that *some* owners leave their brain at home as soon as they put a flexi on their dog.

and I did say *SOME* not all, before I get shouted at.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> I really get feed-up of big dogs and their owns getting moaned at all the time.
> and I did say *SOME* not all, before I get shouted at.


Im not shouting but it was only one lunatic who claimed to own small dogs and think all big dogs were basically like raptors out of Jurassic Park!
I think we are all just more sensitive when it comes to our little darlings (no matter how big they are!!)



LinznMilly said:


> But where the owner deserves the blame is if/when they refuse to accept their dog has an issue that need to be addressed and just buries their head in the sand. I don't expect anyone whose dog has a problem, to necessarily be able to completely fix that behaviour, but they could - and should - at least try.


True dat!! I doubt I'll ever be a good enough trainer to 'fix' Alfie but I can def manage him so he doesnt become anybody else's problem!
(off topic...my first multi quote on the new forum!! woot!)


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

The reason though some small dogs react is because some owners of big dogs haven't been responsible. My tiny Yorkie was perfectly fine until a couple of incidents. 

Luckily my small dog is still ok although he was the one ragged (and bitten in another incident). I totally blame the owner as she knew her dog had done exactly the same to another small dog. Thankfully I only had him at the time as my Yorkie would of been killed. 

I do think it's a shame though that when one breed is targeted all of a sudden every attack by a chi, Yorkie and Jack Russell is brought up. I choose not to say which one ragged mine or bit him as I've met loads more of the same breed that have been perfectly lovely.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Does it matter what breed has behaved in an antisocial manner and does it matter that someone says a staffy has attacked their dog if that is what happened. Does it matter if the OP is living in an area with a lot of out of control bull breeds so has a skewed opinion of them. Candy was attacked (not hurt because she fell half in the canal and half on a canal boat) by a staffy. The owner was mortified and convinced I would be angry just because of the breed and I was apologetic because my stupid dog had disobeyed me and marched into the middle of a group of dogs on a narrow path and some of them happened to be staffys. It caused me problems for quite a while as it made her very nervous but in that case it was equal blame (owners not dogs). But if I lived in an area where there were lots of one breed that belonged to antisocial owners who allowed them to attack other dogs then I would no doubt be very much anti that breed. It is human nature to generalise when you have a series of either good or bad experiences. I fail to see why bull breed owners on here get so uppity whenever anyone mentions a bad experience with their breed. Unfortunately they are attracting the less responsible owners so there are more of them behaving in an antisocial manner than many other breeds (in certain areas) but putting up photos of friendly staffys is not going to alter perceptions. No one is silly enough to think that every dog of one breed behaves in the same way - but if you are surrounded by ones that do behave badly you are rightly going to be very wary of the breed.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Blitz said:


> does it matter that someone says a staffy has attacked their dog if that is what happened.


Yes it matters that breed or type is being singled out. It matters simply due to that fact that to correct and educate about something you need to acknowledge the problem in the first place not look for scapegoats. All dogs, large and small are the same, dogs. All dogs need to be treated as such. All owners need to take responsibility for the behavior of their dogs. Responsibility may be muzzling, not necessarily perfect behavior. Until we recognize that, and continue to simply blame types of dogs, possible, avoidable tragic incidents such as that mentioned will continue. Personally I don't want that.


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## snuff (Apr 23, 2015)

I have a Lhasa x that I've had since he was a puppy, and at around 2 years old he got attacked by another small dog. It completely changed his personality, he became very nervous when meeting other dogs and would often lash out at them. After much training he is a lot better but is still unpredictable, he can be fine with some dogs but not others. When walking he is always on the lead unless we are walking in a remote area with little chance of seeing another dog. So many times I've had dogs run up to us and the owner shouts out saying "its ok, he's friendly" yea yours might be but mine isn't hence being on the lead. 

I had to stop walking at a particular park because there were so many irresponsible owners, and some that even thought it was funny when theirs when for other dogs.
I remember walking my little man with a friend and her Yorkie, a guy was walking towards us with a huge Rotty, my friend was really nervous and suggested we change direction. The Rotty was on a lead and you could tell she was happy and friendly. I asked the owner If it was ok to come say hello, I always ask no matter what the breed. To say she was well behaved was an understatement, she was a lovely dog. That encounter educated my friend that not all big dogs are vicious killers.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I don't think it matters what breed or size a dog is, they should all be kept under control. And regardless of size or breed, if your dog is aggressive then extra precautions should be taken.

I think the attacks by small dogs come up because it's such a common misconception that small dogs can't do any harm when they most certainly can. Lots of people find it funny when a small, cute, fluffy dog is kicking off but let a large dog behave that way and their attitude is completely different. IMO if it's not acceptable in a Rottweiler then it's not acceptable in a Chihuahua.

To be honest, I've had more problems with the friendly out of control dogs than the aggressive ones. Even in an area where every other chav has a status staffie. At least those ones, while usually dog aggressive, are generally walked on a BDSM harness and tow chain, not running loose to make a nuisance of themselves. And the ones that aren't seem utterly devoted to their owners. Trotting alongside them gazing up adoringly at them and ignoring everything around them. I'm quite jealous of that actually lol.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dillon is walked on a Dogmatic with a training lead clipped to headcollar and his normal collar and walks at our side he rarely pulls only to get a to smell a few feet in front of us, but I'm always worried about meeting someone with a dog on a flexi lead heading straight for us.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Does it matter if the OP is living in an area with a lot of out of control bull breeds so has a skewed opinion of them.


The thing is, I've lived in more or less the same area as the OP all my life and I've no idea where all these out of control, aggressive bull breeds who attack every small dog they spot are as I've never come across them, nor have any of my agility mates (including the ones with toy breeds who also happen to live and walk their dogs in the same rough area), or any of my facebook friends or friends of facebook friends, or folk I know through training classes, or the professional dog walkers I know or other dog owning friends from the same city. There are the usual groups of youths with their status dogs who hang about with them trying to look hard but most of the dogs are actually really nice natured if you look past the image.

I have seen quite a few staffies in the area and they vastly outnumber other dogs in rescue locally (and the local rescue centre have a reputation for rehoming dogs to the wrong owners who can't cope (usually because the dog is nothing like described by the EDCH)), but there doesn't seem to be a problem with them. The only staffies I regularly see that I wouldn't let my dogs play with are owned by an unsavoury character near me but he has the sense to keep them on lead and away from other dogs.

The OP also mentioned aggressive akitas - again there is only one we avoid and that's actually because she and Cuillin get carried away playing and forget how to do a recall, so they only get to play when both owners have enough time to wait for the game to wind down (she's still just over a year and Cuillin's 8 months so we don't try to recall either when we know they're not going to).

It just annoys me when folk demonise dogs by breed especially when they make sweeping statements about the dogs that live in an area that are so far off the truth. Angus's bogey breeds are JRTs and Border Terriers, a few different ones have had a go at him but I wouldn't say they are a huge problem in this city - we just happen to have come across some that are out of control and don't like him. We've also come across some that do like him and he's been good friends with.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> The reason though some small dogs react is because some owners of big dogs haven't been responsible. My tiny Yorkie was perfectly fine until a couple of incidents.
> 
> Luckily my small dog is still ok although he was the one ragged (and bitten in another incident). I totally blame the owner as she knew her dog had done exactly the same to another small dog. *Thankfully I only had him at the time as my Yorkie would of been killed.*
> 
> I do think it's a shame though that when one breed is targeted all of a sudden every attack by a chi, Yorkie and Jack Russell is brought up. I choose not to say which one ragged mine or bit him as I've met loads more of the same breed that have been perfectly lovely.


I'm sorry that you've experienced the horror of a dog attack, one in which your dog was ragged, and glad that your dog is fine with others, despite an horrific ordeal, but could you please elaborate on the bolded sentence? I don't see how the number of dogs you have during the time of an attack matters if your dog/s is/are the ones being attacked?  OK, it's easier to handle one dog than 2,3 or 4, but don't they all deserve as much protection as the owner can give them? Why should having more than one dog end in the fatality of one dog during an attack? Surely you'd do your upmost to protect all of the dogs in your care and not sacrifice one for another?

I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it might come across, or that I'm judging you because I'm really not, but just confused as to why that sentence needed saying.



Blitz said:


> Does it matter what breed has behaved in an antisocial manner and does it matter that someone says a staffy has attacked their dog if that is what happened. Does it matter if the OP is living in an area with a lot of out of control bull breeds so has a skewed opinion of them. Candy was attacked (not hurt because she fell half in the canal and half on a canal boat) by a staffy. The owner was mortified and convinced I would be angry just because of the breed and I was apologetic because my stupid dog had disobeyed me and marched into the middle of a group of dogs on a narrow path and some of them happened to be staffys. It caused me problems for quite a while as it made her very nervous but in that case it was equal blame (owners not dogs). But if I lived in an area where there were lots of one breed that belonged to antisocial owners who allowed them to attack other dogs then I would no doubt be very much anti that breed. It is human nature to generalise when you have a series of either good or bad experiences. I fail to see why bull breed owners on here get so uppity whenever anyone mentions a bad experience with their breed. Unfortunately they are attracting the less responsible owners so there are more of them behaving in an antisocial manner than many other breeds (in certain areas) but putting up photos of friendly staffys is not going to alter perceptions. No one is silly enough to think that every dog of one breed behaves in the same way - but if you are surrounded by ones that do behave badly you are rightly going to be very wary of the breed.


Don't antisocial/irresponsible owners show themselves up as if lit up by a beacon, though? They certainly do to me. Plenty of staffies around this area are owned by irresponsible or semi-responsible people who don't put their dogs on a lead and not one of the dogs have attacked mine. In the area I was brought up, we were wary of an unsavoury family who allegedly trained their staffies to attack and kill (their son was said to be wanted in equal measure by drugs-gangs and the police so the dogs were meant for protection), but it didn't make me nervous of Jake, who was a staffy friend of Max's. Both owners were irresponsible - one for using their dog/s as status dogs, the other for letting their dog "escape" from the garden with alarming regularity.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Does it matter what breed has behaved in an antisocial manner and does it matter that someone says a staffy has attacked their dog if that is what happened. Does it matter if the OP is living in an area with a lot of out of control bull breeds so has a skewed opinion of them. Candy was attacked (not hurt because she fell half in the canal and half on a canal boat) by a staffy. The owner was mortified and convinced I would be angry just because of the breed and I was apologetic because my stupid dog had disobeyed me and marched into the middle of a group of dogs on a narrow path and some of them happened to be staffys. It caused me problems for quite a while as it made her very nervous but in that case it was equal blame (owners not dogs). But if I lived in an area where there were lots of one breed that belonged to antisocial owners who allowed them to attack other dogs then I would no doubt be very much anti that breed. It is human nature to generalise when you have a series of either good or bad experiences. I fail to see why bull breed owners on here get so uppity whenever anyone mentions a bad experience with their breed. Unfortunately they are attracting the less responsible owners so there are more of them behaving in an antisocial manner than many other breeds (in certain areas) but putting up photos of friendly staffys is not going to alter perceptions. No one is silly enough to think that every dog of one breed behaves in the same way - but if you are surrounded by ones that do behave badly you are rightly going to be very wary of the breed.


I think it does matter when the OP is trying to tarnish all bully breeds and all so called aggressive breeds yes. I also think it matters when she described someone as white trash and then asked me if I was white trash too for owning a rottie. Rather than respond to such ignorance and prejudice with anger I chose to respond with photos of my friendly rottie.



LinznMilly said:


> I'm sorry that you've experienced the horror of a dog attack, one in which your dog was ragged, and glad that your dog is fine with others, despite an horrific ordeal, but could you please elaborate on the bolded sentence? I don't see how the number of dogs you have during the time of an attack matters if your dog/s is/are the ones being attacked?  OK, it's easier to handle one dog than 2,3 or 4, but don't they all deserve as much protection as the owner can give them? Why should having more than one dog end in the fatality of one dog during an attack? Surely you'd do your upmost to protect all of the dogs in your care and not sacrifice one for another?
> 
> I don't mean that to sound as harsh as it might come across, or that I'm judging you because I'm really not, but just confused as to why that sentence needed saying.
> 
> .


Linz I read the comment to mean that the yorkie would have been more seriously injured had it been subjected to the same attack than the dog that was who I presume was a larger more sturdy breed.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Does it matter if the OP is living in an area with a lot of out of control bull breeds so has a skewed opinion of them


Yes it does matter, especially when that view is skewed.
As Bull breed owners we have to live with that judgmentally skewed opinion every single day...we are not welcome at many holiday locations due to nothing more than what our dogs look like, we are looked down upon by many owners of "acceptable" breeds, and god help us if our dogs act like dogs!

So hell yes it matters that some jumped up idiot is spreading untruths and complete codswallop...the general public tend to believe this rubbish so I do my best to stamp all the judgement out...Unless you own a "devil dog" you will never understand fully the judgement we face on a daily basis


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## ruwise (Aug 6, 2014)

I don't think stereotyping any breed is helpful. Nuala has met a number of staffies and apart from one that was a rescue with loads of scars so had probably had an awful traumatic life she has had nothing but good experiences. Even the one with scars didn't attack her but she just didn't like Nuala and growled at her. She was in the same dog training class for 5 weeks and we just kept them apart. We guessed that she may have had a traumatic experience with a dog that looked like Nuala or she was uncomfortable with not being able to see her eyes as she was fine with all the others. We have started going to a 4 o clock club near us where lots of dogs owners go and Nuala gets on with the staffy best as he lets her follow him around but doesn't really engage with her much at all. In fact she probably gets on better with him than some of the wheatens that go there.


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## MyAnimals (Aug 14, 2014)

This horrible staffy dog's got that poor little dog right where he wants him :lol:


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

Blitz said:


> But if I lived in an area where there were lots of one breed that belonged to antisocial owners who allowed them to attack other dogs then I would no doubt be very much anti that breed. It is human nature to generalise when you have a series of either good or bad experiences. I fail to see why bull breed owners on here get so uppity whenever anyone mentions a bad experience with their breed. Unfortunately they are attracting the less responsible owners so there are more of them behaving in an antisocial manner than many other breeds (in certain areas) but putting up photos of friendly staffys is not going to alter perceptions. *No one is silly enough to think that every dog of one breed behaves in the same way* - but if you are surrounded by ones that do behave badly you are rightly going to be very wary of the breed.


Everyone who supports breed bans obviously is silly enough to think that...

I can only speak for myself, but for me, the issue is not the human nature part - of course we make generalizations based on experiences (as do our dogs). 
But when it comes to bull breeds, we're not just talking mostly harmless generalizations. We're talking out and out bans, and what those bans mean are innocent dogs seized for no reason other than what they look like, and killed by government authorities.
In many US states, cities, and municipalities, police can come to your home without a search warrant, seize your dog, take the dog to the shelter and have him euthanized for NO reason other than the breed the dog appears to be. This happens over and over and over. 100's of thousands of totally innocent, loving family pets taken from their homes and killed for no reason.

You've seen Bates. He's a leggy, 80 pound mutt of unknown origin. He happens to have a square-ish head with an underbite, big chest, smooth coat, and visible musculature. That's enough to get him seized depending on who is evaluating him. We can't travel freely across the country with him, we are limited in where we can live (not that we want to move, and granted, Breez limits us too, most places don't accept dogs over a certain size, we kind of hit that one also). 
But my point is, when we're talking breed generalizations that turn in to legislature that literally threatens the life of your dog, it becomes an entirely different issue. That's why bull breed owners get "uppity". Their dog's lives are on the line.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

http://imgur.com/niSjaI0


Someone just posted this cutie on Reddit!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

MyAnimals said:


> This horrible staffy dog's got that poor little dog right where he wants him :lol:


LMAO. You can almost hear him saying "HA! Get out of that one" you little pipsqueak".


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

Let me discuss this more. I said that I used to be one of the advocates who would jump in and defend SBTs and APBTs by saying they were 'nanny dogs' and I am perfectly aware of how Pit Bull typing works. Yes I can admit that there are times when dogs that aren't actually Staffies or APBTs are labelled as such. However, some of you seem to be taking it to the next level. It looks as if you are trying to blame other breeds/mixes instead of admitting to the fact that there have been serious attacks by actual APBTs and Staffies. Yes, other breeds are capable of attacking and only a fool would say otherwise. However, those other breeds are not labelled 'nanny dogs'. I think it is time that phrases like 'nanny dog' and 'nursemaid's dog' were laid to rest. Any breed that is capable of attacking and causing serious injury should NOT have 'nanny dog' listed as being one of their breed traits. That is what I am trying to argue. That and the FACT that not all human aggressive fighting dogs were killed. Ouesi, you can argue all you like, but there IS evidence (coming from the dog fighters themselves) that many prized human aggressive dogs were not killed and were even used for breeding. So YES it is a myth that all HA dogs were killed. To say there was a 'zero tolerance' for it is an out and out lie. Perhaps you should read Thirty Years with Fighting Dogs by George C. Armitage. That should be an eye opener for you.

Any hater coming here and seeing the lengths to which you will go to defend Staffies and APBTs (even trying to blame other breeds for attacks by them) will only go away with their suspicions/beliefs confirmed.

When it comes to breed behavioural studies I would like to see a larger scale nationwide study. One in which thousands of dogs participate. Not just (say) 70 dogs from a breed that is made up of thousands of individual dogs. Saying that 68% of 70 dogs studied did not show aggression is about as accurate as saying that 75% of 100 women surveyed said they found x-brand of lip stick to be long lasting.

I also found it rather distasteful that one member (Zaros I think) made a 'joke' about his/her dog eating the OP's dog. If you want to promote your breeds then perhaps you should do so in a polite and truthful manner. However I have to say the OP hasn't done themselves any favours either with their conduct.

I will reiterate that I am not a hater of APBTs and Staffies (I wouldn't have wanted to adopt a Staff had I been). I am just someone who has done research (it has been a few years of research and not just a quick visit to dogsbite - a site that I detest) and will no longer support myths and half-truths.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

ruwise said:


> I don't think stereotyping any breed is helpful. Nuala has met a number of staffies and apart from one that was a rescue with loads of scars so had probably had an awful traumatic life she has had nothing but good experiences. Even the one with scars didn't attack her but she just didn't like Nuala and growled at her. She was in the same dog training class for 5 weeks and we just kept them apart. We guessed that she may have had a traumatic experience with a dog that looked like Nuala or she was uncomfortable with not being able to see her eyes as she was fine with all the others. We have started going to a 4 o clock club near us where lots of dogs owners go and Nuala gets on with the staffy best as he lets her follow him around but doesn't really engage with her much at all. In fact she probably gets on better with him than some of the wheatens that go there.


Back when I had a border collie we lived near a wheaten terrier, and my collie was horrible to her! (Not that he was ever allowed near her, of course.) I wondered if it was the fact that her eyes were hidden, so am interested to read your comments.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> Back when I had a border collie we lived near a wheaten terrier, and my collie was horrible to her! (Not that he was ever allowed near her, of course.) I wondered if it was the fact that her eyes were hidden, so am interested to read your comments.


Maybe, your Collie could have been unsure how the Wheaton would react because he couldn't see her eyes. This is also something that should be looked into when looking at dog on dog attacks. Don't want to victim blame, of course, but we should always review every possibility because we've established that the breed isn't to blame and a study earlier in the thread gave a fantastic overview. This should be considered too


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## Frankie457 (Jan 1, 2015)

I must say, as a v.small dog owner myself i find that in general the only dogs that cause Frankie any 'trouble' are other small dogs. I am quite lucky where i live as the majority of dogs are well behaved (although some owners are slightly odd!) AND the majority of owners seem to be respectful to other owners. Frankie's recall is still not 100% everytime so i pop her back on her lead if i see any other dog and always ask an owner before letting her great other dogs - and i must say the larger the dog the more wary the owner is. Not because they think there dog will hurt Frankie - but because they are genuinely concerned of her being accidentally injured through play and would be mortified if this happened. The smaller dogs are much more frequently allowed to run straight up to her barking and yapping. Frankie often plays with a Staffie with no problems and the owner has another dog who is no so dog friendly - they are responsible enough to walk to two dogs separately. In contrast an lady here with two Chi's - one adorable and one, well, maybe best described as snappy, walks them together as 'its not fair to separate them and the best way to stop her snapping is for a larger dog to snap back'. I think this is what is unacceptable - thinking any dog snapping or biting at another dog or person regardless of size. I can only imagine what that silly lady would say if a bull type did snap back even if her dog had started the scrap. 

Judgement is in human nature and very difficult to change. I feel for the bull type owners who are ignored and avoided. Its just as horrible when people call my dog a rat and threaten to kick her or let there dog eat her!!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Yes it matters that breed or type is being singled out. It matters simply due to that fact that to correct and educate about something you need to acknowledge the problem in the first place not look for scapegoats. All dogs, large and small are the same, dogs. All dogs need to be treated as such. All owners need to take responsibility for the behavior of their dogs. Responsibility may be muzzling, not necessarily perfect behavior. Until we recognize that, and continue to simply blame types of dogs, possible, avoidable tragic incidents such as that mentioned will continue. Personally I don't want that.


Of course types of dogs should not be blamed but the OP stated that bull breeds were making it difficult for her to walk in her area. Whether that is true or not is totally beside the point. She did not start to get obnoxious in her replies till after she had been very rudely jumped on by several members. People are sometimes afraid to say their dog was attacked by a bull breed because they know they will have their life made hell over it on here. There seems to be a form of inverted snobbery which actually makes me wonder just what sort of person on here does own staffys - is there a stereotype who think it is fine to belittle and abuse anyone that has a word to say against them.
Why do small breeds get picked on every time the subject comes up - stinks of a big chip on the shoulder to me.



StormyThai said:


> Yes it does matter, especially when that view is skewed.
> As Bull breed owners we have to live with that judgmentally skewed opinion every single day...we are not welcome at many holiday locations due to nothing more than what our dogs look like, we are looked down upon by many owners of "acceptable" breeds, and god help us if our dogs act like dogs!
> 
> So hell yes it matters that some jumped up idiot is spreading untruths and complete codswallop...the general public tend to believe this rubbish so I do my best to stamp all the judgement out...Unless you own a "devil dog" you will never understand fully the judgement we face on a daily basis


The law is an ass and people that set rules against staffys are asses but that does not mean that everyone that mentions their dog has been attacked by one is making it up just to add fuel to the fire.
I have had a staff living about half time with me. He was a proper one, not a huge one, he had a sweet temperament and no one ever said I should not have my other dogs or young child living with him and visitors just greeted him in the same way that they greeted my other dogs. Around the same time I had a rescue German Shepherd - well that obviously turned me into a child abusing maniac. People warned me my daughter would be killed, they refused to get out of the car till they were sure he was shut away - it was ridiculous. But you know what, much as I love the breed I would never have another one. I do not want my social life ruined by my dog so I choose breeds that are socially acceptable. If people want to make stupid remarks about the poodles (which they frequently do) it does not hurt me or them and makes no difference to my friends being able to come in and out of my house.

So all you people who have chosen a breed that you know will make your life difficult and will get you excluded from things - you must love the breed very much and not be too bothered by the idiotic stigma attached. good luck to you but please do not have a go at the majority of the population who believe the junk they hear about the breed or those that are genuinely talking about bad experiences they have had with dogs that just so happen to be staffys. It really does not put you in a good light.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Can I just point out that hear say (and internet sites are hear say unless they are scientific studies) is not evidence...Trying to argue breed traits with people experienced in the breeds being discussed makes you look foolish!
Breed traits exist, you can argue until you are blue in the face but that won't change the fact that the majority of SBT's & APBT's are great with kids. Labs (for example) are known as great family dogs, and the majority are. Finding a few examples of them killing or seriously injuring people does not change the fact that the *majority *do make great family dogs.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Can anyone recommend a safe park for small dogs in Edinburgh? I am afraid to let my Chihuahuas off their lead...., in the city centre we are restricted on dog walking spaces as it is.


Are you really saying you want to let your chihuahuas off lead in a city? The likelyhood they´d be stamped on by shoppers, pedestrians, run over by prams, rollators and wheelchairs is so high that I doubt any very small dogowner does it. But then this is just a troll thread, like many already noticed. This is what I suggest you do next time you want to waste our time.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Of course types of dogs should not be blamed but the OP stated that bull breeds were making it difficult for her to walk in her area. Whether that is true or not is totally beside the point. She did not start to get obnoxious in her replies till after she had been very rudely jumped on by several members. People are sometimes afraid to say their dog was attacked by a bull breed because they know they will have their life made hell over it on here. There seems to be a form of inverted snobbery which actually makes me wonder just what sort of person on here does own staffys - is there a stereotype who think it is fine to belittle and abuse anyone that has a word to say against them.
> Why do small breeds get picked on every time the subject comes up - stinks of a big chip on the shoulder to me.
> 
> *The comments came because the OP decided to label a few breeds (not just one) as an aggressive breed.*
> ...


I do love my breeds, I love ALL breeds. I will not let small minded people dictate to me what pet I have in my own home. Unfortunately the law states that I can not have a pit, if it was not law I would offer one a home in a heart beat 

I do not "have a go" at the majority of the population, but you can bet I will educate and stamp out ridiculous myths and outright lies, nor do I "have a go" at people that have had the horrible situation of their dog being attacked by ANY breed of dog...I do not rubbish peoples experiences with any breed of dog, but I will have a say if someone tries to label a whole breed (any breed) as an aggressive breed of dog.

Please stop attributing others actions onto me, I will defend dogs until my dying day, but I have never, and never will have a go at someone when their dog has been attacked 

Some of my comments are bolded within the quoted text so you will have to open the quote box to view them!


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

Blitz said:


> So all you people who have chosen a breed that you know will make your life difficult and will get you excluded from things - you must love the breed very much and not be too bothered by the idiotic stigma attached. good luck to you but please do not have a go at the majority of the population who believe the junk they hear about the breed or those that are genuinely talking about bad experiences they have had with dogs that just so happen to be staffys. It really does not put you in a good light.


I did not choose a stigmatized breed, I chose a DOG.

A good dog who had a huge affinity for my kids and a need for a home. He was a foundling little skinny black puppy, no litter mates or dam in sight. The people who rescued him initially were not thinking about what breed he was either. They were saving a sick puppy. That he matured in to a dog who looks the way he looks *should* be totally immaterial, the only thing that should matter is his behavior. Unfortunately when it comes to breed bans, his behavior ends up being immaterial, and what he looks like is all that matters.

That should offend and worry EVERY dog owner, not just the ones with "socially unacceptable" breeds.

I have not had a go at a single other breed or size of dog, I have not mentioned any other dogs other than bull breed and dogs affected by breed bans.


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## ruwise (Aug 6, 2014)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> Back when I had a border collie we lived near a wheaten terrier, and my collie was horrible to her! (Not that he was ever allowed near her, of course.) I wondered if it was the fact that her eyes were hidden, so am interested to read your comments.


It was just a guess. I'm not sure how much dogs communicate with their eyes. It is probably as simple as being attacked by a similar looking dogs. Interestingly Nuala met a collie yesterday and they both got along really well. Yesterday at dog club I was giving all the dogs present a treat and by far the snappiest dog was the smallest one there. He nearly bit my hand off. We also were talking to somebody who had a chihaua that had wrecked their kitchen. Does that mean all chi's are destructive no, it just means that one was. I've had toy and medium breed dogs before and from the ones I've had the smaller ones I would always have been more wary of them biting.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Of course types of dogs should not be blamed but the OP stated that bull breeds were making it difficult for her to walk in her area. Whether that is true or not is totally beside the point. She did not start to get obnoxious in her replies till after she had been very rudely jumped on by several members. People are sometimes afraid to say their dog was attacked by a bull breed because they know they will have their life made hell over it on here. There seems to be a form of inverted snobbery which actually makes me wonder just what sort of person on here does own staffys - is there a stereotype who think it is fine to belittle and abuse anyone that has a word to say against them.
> Why do small breeds get picked on every time the subject comes up - stinks of a big chip on the shoulder to me.
> 
> The law is an ass and people that set rules against staffys are asses but that does not mean that everyone that mentions their dog has been attacked by one is making it up just to add fuel to the fire.
> ...


I think this point is interesting - is there?

I'm not sure if I fall in that group... Although Millie's breeding should mean we do I gave to say I have never felt excluded by my breed of dog - I actually thank the people who cross the road to avoid us.

They might cross because of Millie's breed / look or it might be because I have a baby in a sling or buggy with me?

I guess what I am saying is do people see the stigma / reactions because they are looking for them?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

So it is ok if someone says something against a bull breed to plaster the thead with photos of


Milliepoochie said:


> I think this point is interesting - is there?
> 
> I'm not sure if I fall in that group... Although Millie's breeding should mean we do I gave to say I have never felt excluded by my breed of dog - I actually thank the people who cross the road to avoid us.
> 
> ...


Great point and probably very valid.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Not going to lie, I kind of wish people in my area did buy into the media portrayal of my breed of dog more often! Complete strangers grab my Dobe's tail as I walk by and then wonder why I'm not happy about it! She's a Euro dog with a typical Euro attitude when it comes to strangers and I'm surprised she never reacts overly negatively to it. I think even my terriers would be taken aback to someone grabbing their tail unexpectedly while they walk!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Of course types of dogs should not be blamed but the OP stated that bull breeds were making it difficult for her to walk in her area. Whether that is true or not is totally beside the point. She did not start to get obnoxious in her replies till after she had been very rudely jumped on by several members. People are sometimes afraid to say their dog was attacked by a bull breed because they know they will have their life made hell over it on here. There seems to be a form of inverted snobbery which actually makes me wonder just what sort of person on here does own staffys - is there a stereotype who think it is fine to belittle and abuse anyone that has a word to say against them.
> Why do small breeds get picked on every time the subject comes up - stinks of a big chip on the shoulder to me.
> 
> So all you people who have chosen a breed that you know will make your life difficult and will get you excluded from things - you must love the breed very much and not be too bothered by the idiotic stigma attached. good luck to you but please do not have a go at the majority of the population who believe the junk they hear about the breed or those that are genuinely talking about bad experiences they have had with dogs that just so happen to be staffys. It really does not put you in a good light.


I've just gone back and read the first 15 or so pages of this thread, the OP's dogs were not attacked by any dog let alone a bull breed. The OP received a fair amount of understanding about feeling vulnerable and was given suggestions of safe places to walk yet the OP was the one who became aggressive and abusive when people pointed out that dogs of all sizes can be aggressive and that she should be blaming the owners who chose not to control their dogs rather than just the dogs she clearly doesn't like such as bull breeds, rotties, akitas etc. The OP called someone white trash which is disgusting and called parents of bull breeds/rotties irresponsible for having them with children and also called one member's rottie a devil dog.

If one of my dogs were attacked by a staffie or a rottie I would not be afraid to say so on here, difference is I would not then be tarring every staffie or rottie with the same brush and asking for them to be banned from certain parks and calling their owners disgusting names like white trash. I've actually experienced very little ignorance and prejudice against my rotties over the years, less so than ever with this one which is I believe due to her having a big old tail that wags so much people can read her and see she is friendly more easily. However those who do choose to remain ignorant and prejudiced are the ones who should not be seen in a good light whatever breed of dog they own, large or small.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

I've been following this thread but haven't commented up until now, mainly because it got into an argument and then loads of pictures.
what I wish is that the OP had not turned the blame on 'bully dogs' right from the start, but had blamed stupid dog owners instead.

Because there is a valuable discussion in here - about how difficult it can be to walk (and especially to let off lead) a small dog in some city areas. It certainly is in the city where I live anyway, and a lot of it is down to owners not understanding how their dogs may react.

I have a small, anxious, chi cross yappy snappy. I make no excuses for her - she is totally unsociable despite my calling in different behaviourists to help her. She has always been anxious since she arrived here in the UK, but it wasn't until she was attacked, first by three staffies and then by two boxers, that she turned into the frightened, fear-aggressive bundle of nerves she is now.

Having had medium and large dogs in the past, of all shapes and breeds, I struggle daily with trying to help Sophie and to find a way where she can get back to how she used to be - friendly and confident with other dogs....but I doubt we will ever make it that far. And I feel sad for her as a result.

But I don't blame staffies or boxers for her problems (although if asked, she probably would ). But I do blame the owners of these dogs, because in both cases they thought is was okay to let their dogs treat my smaller dog like a plaything they could throw around (and the staffie owners even laughed before pulling their dogs off).

I also blame any owners who let their dogs run around out of control while they read their smartphones or talk to other dogs owners, standing with their backs to their dogs. And these owners have dogs of all shapes and sizes. This is not an answer bashing staffies. Many staffies I have met are lovely dogs, but some of their owners are something else...

What I would like is for dog owners to realise that they may have the kindest, most sociable and human-friendly dog in the world. They may be perfectly safe with your small children, but this doesn't mean that they will treat my small bundle of anxiety well.
Because Sophie in her anxiety is her own worst enemy. She reacts and barks with fear and then backs away yapping loudly, she instantly becomes like 'prey' in the minds of many a normally-placid dog and, unless they have learned recall really well, they could well go in for the kill.

So for me, this thread could have been informative.
Perhaps other small dog owners (or any owner of an anxious dog) could have joined in and made suggestions on how to tackle the problem.

Perhaps the OP could have been given details of dog walking areas in their city where their dogs would feel secure.

Many of us small dog owners know we haven't got the most sociable dogs and many of us like other breeds too and do not contribute to the scapegoating of particular breeds.

But we do also know that we may have problems walking and exercising our small dogs among larger ones.
And it would be nice to get some help in doing so.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> Let me discuss this more. I said that I used to be one of the advocates who would jump in and defend SBTs and APBTs by saying they were 'nanny dogs' and I am perfectly aware of how Pit Bull typing works. Yes I can admit that there are times when dogs that aren't actually Staffies or APBTs are labelled as such. However, some of you seem to be taking it to the next level. It looks as if you are trying to blame other breeds/mixes instead of admitting to the fact that there have been serious attacks by actual APBTs and Staffies. Yes, other breeds are capable of attacking and only a fool would say otherwise. However, those other breeds are not labelled 'nanny dogs'. I think it is time that phrases like 'nanny dog' and 'nursemaid's dog' were laid to rest. Any breed that is capable of attacking and causing serious injury should NOT have 'nanny dog' listed as being one of their breed traits. That is what I am trying to argue. That and the FACT that not all human aggressive fighting dogs were killed. Ouesi, you can argue all you like, but there IS evidence (coming from the dog fighters themselves) that many prized human aggressive dogs were not killed and were even used for breeding. So YES it is a myth that all HA dogs were killed. To say there was a 'zero tolerance' for it is an out and out lie. Perhaps you should read Thirty Years with Fighting Dogs by George C. Armitage. That should be an eye opener for you.


 Now you're calling me a liar? How many actual APBT breeders, owners and enthusiasts do you know and interact with? The reality is, among the vast majority of them, there was and IS to this day zero tolerance for HA.
Are you familiar with the UKC, AKC and ADBA breed standards for APBTs, AmStaffs, and Staffies? Have you read the temperament requirements? Have you seen the temperament of these breeds in person? Over and over? Same type of temperament throughout the breeds?
They are simply not a breed at all prone to HA.

That doesn't mean HA doesn't happen BTW, there will always be outliers, that does not negate the vast majority. The reality is the dogs were expected to fight in a pit with men in there with them who were not their owners. They were expected to not redirect on to humans. If you had legitimate pitbull experience you would know this. How many fights have you broken up, among many breeds? Again, if you had first hand experience with this breed you would not be on here calling me a liar.

Let me make this analogy, maybe that will make sense. What are the odds of me turning a bloodhound in to a herder? Not good. I could infuse some GSD blood in to the line and improve my odds, and I could spend a lot of time training the dog to work livestock, but if I end up with a herding dog, it's mainly a fluke and not something I would expect out of any other bloodhound out there.

The only major difference is, herding is hard to teach. HA is not quite as difficult to teach and encourage in a dog. Any idiot can turn a dog in to a fear biter. That doesn't take any particular talent. But a dog who is a fear biter due to environment, is not a dog who is HA due to inherent breed traits. 
Also, let's be clear, TAUGH behaviors are not hereditary. A great dane taught to retrieve is not going to pass that skill on to her offspring. She may pass down her biddability, her intelligence, her food drive, but the taught skill will not pass down. 
In the same way, a fighting dog who learns to bite humans to defend himself is not going to pass on HA to the future offspring. The fearful temperament might be, but the learned behavior is not.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Of course types of dogs should not be blamed but the OP stated that bull breeds were making it difficult for her to walk in her area. Whether that is true or not is totally beside the point. She did not start to get obnoxious in her replies till after she had been very rudely jumped on by several members. *People are sometimes afraid to say their dog was attacked by a bull breed because they know they will have their life made hell over it on here. *


If anyone comes on here and says their dog/s have been attacked, they deserve compassion and support, maybe sympathy. That's true regardless of the breeds involved. If they can accept that it's ONE dog in a staffy/rottie/chi/westie/"devil dog" suit and someone immediately goes for the jugular with "That's right! Blame [insert breed] rararara!" Then they're just making themselves look hotheaded idiots.

On the other hand, if I were to come on here and say "One of my dogs was attacked by a poodle - just proves to me that all poodles are dangerous devil dogs and nothing you can say is going to change my mind", how would you react? (Substitute poodle for preferred breed of choice if necessary).



Blitz said:


> *There seems to be a form of inverted snobbery which actually makes me wonder just what sort of person on here does own staffys - is there a stereotype who think it is fine to belittle and abuse anyone that has a word to say against them.
> Why do small breeds get picked on every time the subject comes up - stinks of a big chip on the shoulder to me*.


Is it OK for you to belittle and abuse staffy/rottie owners?

Small breeds got mentioned in this case because the OP has small breed dogs and was silly enough to show how ignorant she was by saying that "Chis and small dogs can't do as much damage as big dogs".



Blitz said:


> The law is an ass and people that set rules against staffys are asses but that does not mean that everyone that mentions their dog has been attacked by one is making it up just to add fuel to the fire.
> I have had a staff living about half time with me. He was a proper one, not a huge one, he had a sweet temperament and no one ever said I should not have my other dogs or young child living with him and visitors just greeted him in the same way that they greeted my other dogs. Around the same time I had a rescue German Shepherd - well that obviously turned me into a child abusing maniac. People warned me my daughter would be killed, they refused to get out of the car till they were sure he was shut away - it was ridiculous. But you know what, much as I love the breed I would never have another one. * I do not want my social life ruined by my dog so I choose breeds that are socially accept*able. If people want to make stupid remarks about the poodles (which they frequently do) it does not hurt me or them and makes no difference to my friends being able to come in and out of my house.
> 
> *So all you people who have chosen a breed that you know will make your life difficult and will get you excluded from things - you must love the breed very much and not be too bothered by the idiotic stigma attached. good luck to you but please do not have a go at the majority of the population who believe the junk they hear about the breed or those that are genuinely talking about bad experiences they have had with dogs that just so happen to be staffys. It really does not put you in a good light*.


Erm ... Why do dogs have to either ruin your social life or be socially acceptable? What's wrong with having a life outside of the dogs? If your social life is so important to you, why do people have to visit you at your home - why can't you visit them at theirs?

So it's OK for the majority of the population to live in ignorance and fear and stereotype bull breed/guarding breed/"devil dog" breed owners, but those same owners can't retaliate because "it really does not put you in a good light"...? Why does that put me in mind of bait dogs?


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

silvi said:


> I've been following this thread but haven't commented up until now, mainly because it got into an argument and then loads of pictures.
> what I wish is that the OP had not turned the blame on 'bully dogs' right from the start, but had blamed stupid dog owners instead.
> 
> Because there is a valuable discussion in here - about how difficult it can be to walk (and especially to let off lead) a small dog in some city areas. It certainly is in the city where I live anyway, and a lot of it is down to owners not understanding how their dogs may react.
> ...


Your Sophie would have benefitted greatly from hanging out with our Lunar.

Lunar was our ex-feral great dane who had amazing dog skills. My friend (who is a dog trainer herself) took on a small terrier mix who was terrified of big dogs. 
Lunar was exactly the medicine the terrier mix needed. We took them out in a big area with plenty of room, and Lunar totally ignored the little dog. After a while she got brave enough to check him out, he quietly let her, then gently tried to sniff her back, and she froze. So he went back to ignoring her. He knew exactly how much to try and when to back off. Long story short, that little dog eventually went on to hang out with a rhodesian, a rhodesian sized mutt, and two great danes, and she was 100% fine. She eventually gained good enough dog skills herself that she is now a stooge dog for other dogs. 
The other benefit of a Lunar type dog is that his dog skills were good enough to make rude dogs behave and keep their distance, so the dog walking with Lunar feels safer, and may even learn better dog skills themselves.

When trainers recommend not getting another dog until your dog's behavior is where you want it, this is one of the huge factors. A dog who goes to live with another nervous, leash reactive dog, is likely to become nervous and leash reactive themselves. But a dog who goes to live with a dog who has great dog skills is much more likely to learn decent skills themselves. Like being able to diffuse very adrenalized situations without anything but a look or a slight change of posture. It's actually quite fascinating to watch a dog with good dog skills completely shut down a big display from another dog. This *can* be learned. I've seen little dogs do it plenty as well. My friend who breeds CAS also has a tiny little terrier, about the size of a chihuahua. That dog is SO good at keeping herself safe in big dog interactions, it's not even funny. It's all dog skills with her. Little tiny thing and she's just as good at de-escalating things as the big dogs.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

So, we cannot call a pedigree Hovawart's a guarding breed as some of them aren't into guarding? Where is the dividing line I wonder.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Blitz said:


> So it is ok if someone says something against a bull breed to plaster the thead with photos of
> 
> Great point and probably very valid.


To be fair they done a lot more than say somethingn against bull breeds - look at how they described Millie

But on the same breath I think anyone getting upset over what the original poster said is being abut silly- it's quite obvious someone fishing for attention and who frankly really lacks something in their own life to feel the need to be abusive to others like that.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

Goblin said:


> So, we cannot call a pedigree Hovawart's a guarding breed as some of them aren't into guarding? Where is the dividing line I wonder.


No. Hovawarts are not a guarding breed, collies are not a herding breed, beagles are not scent hounds, and golden retrievers are not a retrieving breed. 
Seems legit....


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

LinznMilly said:


> If anyone comes on here and says their dog/s have been attacked, they deserve compassion and support, maybe sympathy. That's true regardless of the breeds involved. If they can accept that it's ONE dog in a staffy/rottie/chi/westie/"devil dog" suit and someone immediately goes for the jugular with "That's right! Blame [insert breed] rararara!" Then they're just making themselves look hotheaded idiots.
> 
> On the other hand, if I were to come on here and say "One of my dogs was attacked by a poodle - just proves to me that all poodles are dangerous devil dogs and nothing you can say is going to change my mind", how would you react? (Substitute poodle for preferred breed of choice if necessary).
> 
> ...


First of all I am replying to you but not necessarily talking about you - it is a bit of a group reply if that makes sense so do not take anything personally.

Your first point. What is wrong with politely pointing out that it was an individual dog, not a representative of the breed rather than making a fool of the OP (any OP, not this one). It would come over much better.

How have I belittled or abused staffy/rottie owners -confused.
What is ignorant about knowing that a chi cannot do as much physical damage as a large dog assuming they both have the same intentions. Very odd to think otherwise. If I got kicked or bitten by a shetland pony it is not going to be half as bad as being kicked or bitten by a shire horse. Just as unacceptable but not going to do the same damage. If one of my miniature poodles bit me they are not going to damage me as much as if a standard poodle bit me. Plus a lot easier to dislodge a small dog.

I must be different from you, my dogs are around at home all the time. We have a lot of visitors. Today, so far, 2 unexpected ones and one (two people) expected. In each case the dogs were outside with me and I could let them greet the visitors without worrying that there would be any concern.

I do not think that ranting on a pet forum where basically the majority agree with you anyway is going to change anything at all. All it will do is annoy those that are anti bull breeds.

Please remember that this post is not aimed at you personally in any way.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Your Sophie would have benefitted greatly from hanging out with our Lunar.
> 
> Lunar was our ex-feral great dane who had amazing dog skills. My friend (who is a dog trainer herself) took on a small terrier mix who was terrified of big dogs.
> Lunar was exactly the medicine the terrier mix needed. We took them out in a big area with plenty of room, and Lunar totally ignored the little dog. After a while she got brave enough to check him out, he quietly let her, then gently tried to sniff her back, and she froze. So he went back to ignoring her. He knew exactly how much to try and when to back off. Long story short, that little dog eventually went on to hang out with a rhodesian, a rhodesian sized mutt, and two great danes, and she was 100% fine. She eventually gained good enough dog skills herself that she is now a stooge dog for other dogs.
> ...


We could definitely do with the help of a dog like Luna! 

One of the behaviourists I called in to help Sophie did bring his very large GSD with him and he was fine and eventually Sophie felt confident enough to have a sniff herself . But the behaviourist was mucho expensive and I couldn't afford too many sessions.

I know she has it in her to learn confidence with larger dogs, as she lived with our rescue dogs in Spain before I brought her to the UK and our greyhound Izzy took her under her wing and she was fine.
I think she probably misses the protection of having a larger dog around. Sadly Izzy passed away a few months ago and never made it back to the UK .

We are always on the lookout for someone with a larger dog who would like to be friends with Sophie, but most dog owners round our way just want to get out and back (apart from being on their phones, lol!) and none seem to have the time to stop and chat and discuss dogs, otherwise there might be some help there.


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## Joe-Bonner (Apr 25, 2015)

Chubble at mill! Seen! Hear me now, Phweep!.. Haul and pull up a seckon. Its I man Linford, come fee fix up. It's the troot we bring ya so to negrate these shenannyg'wans innit blood!. 

The troot is that you man Gizmo&CujoJizzmo is racialist against Staffy bull terrierists! and just becaw you man have lickle bloodclart yappa dag, you haffy try mash I man staffy bull massive crass wi you big lies and skank dem!

Wassup wi you man? You c'yarn have big man dag fee chavtection? why yo have dat narsty lickle postman worrier? Anyhow, how much yoo dog way dem? I bet no more than one killergram or sompting puny eeh? You shoulda get a nice musclear dag to protecka mans yard. Them laptop dogs are good fee nuttin!

As you know aready, my next dag 'Selassie' is crass big and small german dag and is strickly having the best of boat worlds. Why you dags c'yarn't get on with big man dag is beyond I reckoning.

Saline advice is to getta bunjee lead and pick the ting up when him getter tacked fee fockrees sake! Its better than it get mash up innit!

Anyhow we have a c'yat now. Hopefully it can sart out the ermine problem we has wi the rats ya so. So I muss buss to the pussyclart forum fee some info on how to STFU dat d'yamn troat noise. It don't stop mek it all night long! Brrrr brrrr brrrr! Lard have mercy. I have a phone that do dat! and so far this supposed rat catcher didn't even c'yatch a cold and it carst me two spliff fee dat moggie! We call him 'Frank' after the famous genius 'Frank Einstein' innit.

Respeck alweighs

I man Linford O'Really and me yoot Lloyd III junior the turd. 

And of course, we two dags, 'Selassie' the german dag and 'Bone' the staffy, bull masstive, rockweiler, Lassie dog mix up crassbreed. More so a mongrill to be fair. Cos, when him bite you, the Lassie part kick in and him garn fetch the ambulance to fix up any injury. I have train him how fee tex pon a mobile aready.

PS. I don't come back for a few days as we's garn mountain-earring in the Liverpool area, up 'Mount Killamanforhimgiro'. When we come back I have to arks a qwestion pon heavy breeding. My dog isn't a fighting dag. How many times a minute should him breed ruffly?

Safe, me breadbin.

Later.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Well what can you say to that


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Blitz said:


> What is ignorant about knowing that a chi cannot do as much physical damage as a large dog assuming they both have the same intentions. Very odd to think otherwise.


Once again ignoring the psychological damage a small dog can do which can make an otherwise non dog aggressive dog, dog aggressive which is very hard to turn around.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

Regarding the damage potential.
All things being equal, yes, of course a small dog is not going to do as much damage as a bigger dog.

However, all things are never equal are they?
First there is bite inhibition. Bite inhibition does not mean the dog will not bite, it means that if the dog does bite, the level at which the dog inhibits the damage of that bite. Dogs have amazing control over their jaws and can adjust the pressure in milliseconds. Anyone who raw feeds knows dogs can crush bones with their jaws, yet how many bites on humans actually crush bones? That video where Holly the lab chomps on CM’s hand is actually a fairly inhibited bite. Despite several chomps, she only left him with one good puncture wound. No broken bones. A dog that size can make short work of a turkey neck with similar sized bones that a hand would have. 

Then there’s triggers, and how predictable those triggers are. A resource guarder who is resource specific (only guards high value food or a certain toy) is a totally different kettle of fish than a dog who is a resource guarder who picks random and unpredictable things to guard like locations or a box of tissue that he happened to notice. 

We also have to account for over all temperament, tolerance, resilience after stressful situations, coping skills (how adept is the dog at getting himself out of uncomfortable situations), how good the dog is at warning, how well those warnings are heeded... All sorts of things. 

Again, deed not breed (or size).


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

LynnM said:


> Well what can you say to that


Just two little words really.

Beginning with an 'F' and ending with an 'F'

Here you go, The letters are a bit jumbled up but lets see if you can work out the popular phrase or saying without asking the forum for help.

*KCUF FOF!*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Take this video





Is the jrt going to do as much damage as say a malinois or german shepherd maybe not. But could he have seriously hurt that decoy had he not been wearing a sleeve probably. Many of the smaller dogs are terriers bred with strong jaws to dispatch vermin.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Regarding the damage potential.
> All things being equal, yes, of course a small dog is not going to do as much damage as a bigger dog.
> 
> However, all things are never equal are they?
> ...


I did say that they had to have the same intent - fairly obviously a large dog that has good bite inhibition and is not trying to rip someone up is going to do far less damage than a small dog that is giving its all. But two dogs with equal intent to cause damage - the large one is going to do more damage than the small one. Neither should be in a position where they want to do such a thing though and it is totally unacceptable for a dog to attack another dog or a human regardless of the physical damage it is trying to inflict.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I did say that they had to have the same intent - fairly obviously a large dog that has good bite inhibition and is not trying to rip someone up is going to do far less damage than a small dog that is giving its all. But two dogs with equal intent to cause damage - the large one is going to do more damage than the small one. Neither should be in a position where they want to do such a thing though and it is totally unacceptable for a dog to attack another dog or a human regardless of the physical damage it is trying to inflict.


My point was it's not always as simple as big dog = dangerous, small dog = safe which is how these things often get oversimplified. 
Bates is just about as bomb-proof with kids as a dog can get, yet he will happily critter and kill small furries. He is more than capable of using his teeth with purpose, but because of his temperament and personality, he is a very safe dog with children. Meanwhile, I can think of several small dogs who I do not feel comfortable having my kids interact with.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

43 pages in response to a troll...really? Please let this thread die. It's repetative, useless &, unless you're bored out of your skull it's ....boring ffs.
Let it go!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> My point was it's not always as simple as big dog = dangerous, small dog = safe which is how these things often get oversimplified.
> Bates is just about as bomb-proof with kids as a dog can get, yet he will happily critter and kill small furries. He is more than capable of using his teeth with purpose, but because of his temperament and personality, he is a very safe dog with children. Meanwhile, I can think of several small dogs who I do not feel comfortable having my kids interact with.


But apart from the OP after she/he got really riled and started talking nonsense, no one would say that. How can a big dog be dangerous and a small dog be safe. My only point is that if a small dog and a large dog both attack with the same intent to damage someone/something then the large dog will do the most damage.
That hardly equates to every large dog being potentially dangerous and every small dog being safe.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

Blitz said:


> But apart from the OP after she/he got really riled and started talking nonsense, *no one would say that.* How can a big dog be dangerous and a small dog be safe. My only point is that if a small dog and a large dog both attack with the same intent to damage someone/something then the large dog will do the most damage.
> That hardly equates to every large dog being potentially dangerous and every small dog being safe.


I wish you were right about the bolded, but sadly, it's not true at all. Real dog people don't say size (or breed) equates to safety, but true dog people aren't writing the laws.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

BlackadderUK said:


> 43 pages in response to a troll...really? Please let this thread die.* It's repetative, useless &, unless you're bored out of your skull it's ....boring ffs*.
> Let it go!


Maybe in your opinion although ironically you must be quite bored out of your skull yourself to feel the need to post the above and bump the post...

Personally once the OP left I think it became a much more interesting discussion.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2015)

BlackadderUK said:


> 43 pages in response to a troll...really? Please let this thread die. It's repetative, useless &, unless you're bored out of your skull it's ....boring ffs.
> Let it go!


It actually has been about 20 pages of an interesting discussing between members, troll left about p20


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## Schnauzer.Sophie (Apr 25, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> What is the politically correct description for a girl in a bad tracksuit, top knot, cheap cider in one hand, *** in the other, a baby and a Rottweiler on a totally impractical diamante lead that would barely restrain a Chi???


That's a bit inappropriate! However, talking of leads and leashes. I'd much prefer that diamante lead over one of those extending strings that they usually have them on!

I've had more injuries off those leads than the dogs on the ends of them! Whatever their breed!


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I originally read this title as 'bully dogs' as in dogs that were being bullies and bullying other dogs being too over boisterous etc, rather than 'bull breeds'. 

I met two lovely staffies today they were dinky ones came up to greet and were lovely and friendly. JJ growled at one that came close to my scooter for me to fuss (and he's not a bull breed) I told him off as the other dog wasn't doing anything wrong simply coming for a fuss, the dog did nothing to retaliate to JJ's growls, just backed off a little ..JJ went to say hello to the other one after I told him off and the little one coming towards me came back for a stroke and fuss then went to say hello to Inca. They went on their way with their owner and we went on ours no problems. I think its sad that so many of them are in rescue because society as decided they are bad dogs all of a sudden. Because of a few irresponsible owners who probably couldn't control their dogs whatever breed they chose! 

There's a local woman round here had a chihuahua, used to be dressed up in bling to look cute but allowed to run around off-lead. I witnessed it nearly getting run over by a double decker bus when it ran over the main road away from her as she was screaming at it to 'get back in'. sadly I think the dog was eventually killed by being run over. The woman now has a dalmation puppy and can't control that one either!


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Yes, there is clearly a lot of misinformation about pit bulls and similar breeds.
> 
> The reason they were called nanny dogs is because one of the breed traits is a real affinity towards children. Not just tolerance, but a true desire to *be* with kids and interact with them. Turn Bates loose in a group of people, and he will on his own gravitate towards the children. He truly enjoys kids.
> Historically in this country, print and visual media is full of kids and pits. Petey of The Little Rascals fame was an APBT dual registered with AKC and UKC.
> ...





ouesi said:


> Now you're calling me a liar? How many actual APBT breeders, owners and enthusiasts do you know and interact with? The reality is, among the vast majority of them, there was and IS to this day zero tolerance for HA.
> Are you familiar with the UKC, AKC and ADBA breed standards for APBTs, AmStaffs, and Staffies? Have you read the temperament requirements? Have you seen the temperament of these breeds in person? Over and over? Same type of temperament throughout the breeds?
> They are simply not a breed at all prone to HA.
> 
> ...


You started off by saying this:

"Selectively breeding for zero human aggression and high pain tolerance, over time, this created a breed that is ridiculously safe to handle even in the most intense of situations. Even today in many breed enthusiast circles, the trait to not be human aggressive is taken so seriously that breeders will still PTS dogs who even snap at a human, regardless of reason."

That implies that human aggression is passed on through breeding.

You then said this:

".... a fighting dog who learns to bite humans to defend himself is not going to pass on HA to the future offspring."

So which is it? Is human aggression passed on to offspring or not? Why bother to selectively breed for zero HA if it is something that is not passed on? Also, if somebody is going to get a puppy from a breeder then would you advise them that it doesn't matter if one or both of the parents are human aggressive?

Besides, do you honestly think that a high earning fighting dog that happens to be aggressive towards humans would always be killed? You must be seriously deluded if you think that. Like I said go and read that book I mentioned and you WILL discover that not all HA fighting dogs were killed. We are talking about dog fighters here. Do you really think they would be the most responsible people in the world? I think not.

As for high pain tolerance. My Lurcher got staples put in WITHOUT the need of any type of anaesthesia and he didn't wince or yelp. Then last year my Greyhound ripped off one of her dew claws and she needed the wound cauterized. This was also done without anaesthesia and she didn't react at all. So I would say that other breeds can have a high tolerance to pain as well.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Herding is passed on through breeding, but does the dog know how to herd without being taught? Nope...


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

I was going to leave it really black and white with that last post as I'm not eloquent enough to explain most things, but I think I can make this simple and more in-depth without getting confusing.

Once you've got a breed of dog with set breed traits, you can modify them through breeding. It's unlikely you'll ever breed a high prey drive fully out of JRTs without bringing other breeds in, because it's a breed trait of theirs. You CAN breed JRTs with less intense prey drive. Keep the dogs that have less inclination to chase without encouragement, and breed them (to put it really simply!). They still have prey drive, but it's been watered down through breeding.

The same applies for other breeds.

Different types of aggression, too. They can all be learned, they can all be caught in breeding. It's actually a bunch of other traits that create the aggression element in breeds of dog. If you want a handler hard breed dog, you breed in confidence. If you want a handler hard individual dog, you praise for the behaviour you want. You can't breed in fear aggression into a breed of dog without also breeding in other nervous-like traits. A breed of dog that is confident won't also have the "fear aggressive" breed trait, but a confident breed can become fear aggressive through learning.

Same applies to every breed and the majority of behaviours.

Temperament can vary from line to line and dog to dog, but the breed traits don't change unless the breed changes. It's a set-in-stone marker.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> You started off by saying this:
> 
> "Selectively breeding for zero human aggression and high pain tolerance, over time, this created a breed that is ridiculously safe to handle even in the most intense of situations. Even today in many breed enthusiast circles, the trait to not be human aggressive is taken so seriously that breeders will still PTS dogs who even snap at a human, regardless of reason."
> 
> ...


Nice talking with you as always, first I'm a liar, now I'm deluded. 

So, let me clarify:
Temperament and inherent traits are hereditary, learned behavior is not.

Human aggression can manifest in many ways. There are ******* dogs who simply like using teeth on humans, there are dogs who learn to use teeth on humans out of frustration, fear, pain etc., but who will happily choose other options if given half a chance. 
Then there are dogs who unthinkingly lash out, who redirect when excited, amped up, adrenalized. I had a malamute who would turn around and bite me if he couldn't get to the dog across the street that he really wanted to get at. It's actually a pretty common trait in northern breeds. It is inherent. 
This last type - redirected aggression is the main one that was selectively bred out of fighting dogs. Think about it, how many terrier breeds are there out there who are known for redirecting? A lot of terriers will re-direct, but pitbull terriers will not. As an inherited trait, it was selectively bred out.

Now, let's take a dog who had learned to bite in fear. Something that is sadly very easy to teach - teach a dog to fear bite. Go to any half-ass "protection dog" trainer and you can see how it's done. It takes no skill really, just a bite sleeve and repeatedly pushing a dog past his comfort zone. 
These dogs who learn to bite in fear will pass down their fearful temperament, but the biting part mostly depends on how that fearful temperament is managed. IOW temperament is passed on, behavior because of that temperament is mostly learned and therefore not hereditary.

There are also some super confident dogs who learn to push back (using teeth if necessary) in order to get out of something, to avoid pain, or to avoid doing something he doesn't want to do. This too is learned behavior. The confident "you can't make me" temperament will be passed down, but the behavior that comes from the temperament will again, depend on the handling.

You see this in some of the large guardian breeds. It's not really HA IMO, it's more what I call a dog who doesn't suffer fools. I knew a rhodesian boy who was like this. His owner was a dominance devotee and the dog basically matured in to telling the owner to F-off. The dog gave plenty of fair warning, he gave the guy plenty of opportunity to back off, but after the warnings, but he wasn't going to back down. That dog went to a new home and was a lovely, sweet family dog who lived out the rest of his life without another issue. 
Our great dane rescue had learned to use teeth to avoid ill treatment by humans. Once he settled in a safe environment and saw that his signals would be heard and respected, he never once attempted to bite anyone again. He had a lovely cooperative relationship with his humans and was a seriously easy dog to live with who I totally trusted around my kids.

Some bull-breeds have this "don't suffer fools" thing going on. It's not very common in staffies and APBT, they tend to be ridiculously forgiving of stupid handling (which is why they're so popular unfortunately) but you do see it in American Bulldogs a good bit, especially as the lines diverged and some were selected as good hog dogs. The temperament you need to intelligently corner a hog and not get hurt seems to lend itself to confidence and not putting up with stupid handling. I don't consider AmBulls pitbull types though.

Again I don't know that I would call this true HA as given a choice, these dogs are perfectly safe with humans. True HA is when the dog chooses to go for a human even when there is an option to not. It's actually exceedingly rare in ALL breeds. Dogs have co-evolved with humans and all breeds have a pretty strong aversion to biting humans in general and when they do, they pretty much always inhibit their bite to some extent.

And of course other breeds have high pain tolerance. Just because I say bull-breeds have a high pain tolerance doesn't mean other breeds don't.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dogsaintdumb said:


> Herding is passed on through breeding, but does the dog know how to herd without being taught? Nope...


of course it does, a baby border collie is often seen herding ducks or whatever. The finer art of herding has to be trained but it is only a case of training a dog to control its herding instinct in a way that suits the job it is doing.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

My next comment cleared up what I meant.


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## LurcherGreyoundGirl (Oct 13, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Nice talking with you as always, first I'm a liar, now I'm deluded.
> 
> So, let me clarify:
> Temperament and inherent traits are hereditary, learned behavior is not.
> ...


If learned behaviours are not passed on then how are breed traits born? How is it that a Border Collie who has never been trained to herd starts to display herding behaviour. Such as 'rounding up' the people in the house or their horses in the field? I have a friend with a BC and he has never been taught to herd yet he will herd her horses. How can that be if learned behaviours are not passed on? Could it be that some behaviors have been taught so much to certain breeds that the behaviur becomes ingrained into breeeding lines.Here is an intersting article regarding aggression and breeding.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2015)

Blitz said:


> of course it does, a baby border collie is often seen herding ducks or whatever. The finer art of herding has to be trained but it is only a case of training a dog to control its herding instinct in a way that suits the job it is doing.


Right, the inherent behavior is fine tuned, but it's obvious that the trait is there.
If by some miracle I were to teach my great dane to herd (don't laugh), and then bred her (another miracle since she's spayed), that herding that she managed to learn is not something that would be passed on to her offspring.

Learned behaviors are not passed down.

Of course the waters get muddy when you start looking at those learned behaviors because many of them are easily learned because the dog already had a natural affinity towards doing them. Bates is a pushy muzzle puncher, so teaching him to nudge things with his nose was a piece of cake. Breez is far more dignified and pushing things with her muzzle is not her thing. I can (and have) taught her to nose things, but I'll never get as far with her as I have with Bates.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> That implies that human aggression is passed on through breeding.
> 
> You then said this:
> 
> ".... a fighting dog who learns to bite humans to defend himself is not going to pass on HA to the future offspring."


Neither of which is contradictory. Simple fact is, as with any other undesirable traits according to humans, you simply don't breed with those traits. How is it that we have the breed and the differences we currently have. Good breeders breed for health and traits as well as looks.

Now do you really think your "fighting dog owners" are really going to have pedigree staffies complete with papers from either the KC/AKC? Pitbulls are obviously harder as they are not one singular breed. The main argument for not calling anything a "nanny dog" is from one blog from someone who is pro BSL and has the following opinion:



> Your life, and the lives of your children may one day depend on your ability to recognize a Pit Bull from a block away.
> 
> Creating special regulations or laws for pit bulls may save your life. Laws we simply do not need to create for every breed of the canine species. A law created to protect us from Pit Bulls, would be of no use to enforce onto Pugs and Chihuahuas.


Says a lot really as it is totally against the evidence that BSL has shown where it has been implemented.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2015)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> If learned behaviours are not passed on then how are breed traits born? How is it that a Border Collie who has never been trained to herd starts to display herding behaviour. Such as 'rounding up' the people in the house or their horses in the field? I have a friend with a BC and he has never been taught to herd yet he will herd her horses. How can that be if learned behaviours are not passed on? Could it be that some behaviors have been taught so much to certain breeds that the behaviur becomes ingrained into breeeding lines.Here is an intersting article regarding aggression and breeding.


Herding, retrieving, scenting, pointing, hunting, biting, and killing are all points on the predatory sequence. (Ray Coppinger has several excellent books on this sort of thing).
By selectively breeding for one point on the predatory sequence and selectively breeding out other traits, we have ended up with the breeds with have with those breed traits.

I just skimmed the article you posted, and while I agree with some points, others I don't.

It is true that many fighting dogs were deliberately selected for a desire to aggress on another dog. You have not seen me once deny that dog intolerance and out and out DA doesn't exist in bull-breeds, nor will I. However, I don't see DA as a "bad" trait, it just IS. And it's easy enough to manage with intelligent handling.

So yes, absolutely some bull breed dogs are going to have an inherent desire to fight with other dogs. However, where that desire comes from can be very different. It's kind of like military and police K9s. Some are in it for a real fight and they are operating in defense drive 100%. Many more are in prey drive which lights up an entirely different part of the brain. Some vacillate between the two (defense and prey). 
With fighting dogs it's often part of a high prey drive. Again, prey drive =/= aggression. APBT are also what I would call "adrenaline junkie" dogs. They like a good adrenaline rush, and if they figure out a fight gives them that rush they will very quickly learn to start fights in search of that rush. Re-directing that desire for an adrenaline rush in to other behaviors and dog sports is again easy enough and really not much of an issue.

I don't consider high prey drive or being an adrenaline junkie pathological as stated in that article, but that's just me... Most pet owners have no desire to deal with high prey drive and I totally understand, but many of us really enjoy working with a drivey dog and prefer that kind of dog.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

LurcherGreyoundGirl said:


> If learned behaviours are not passed on then how are breed traits born? How is it that a Border Collie who has never been trained to herd starts to display herding behaviour. Such as 'rounding up' the people in the house or their horses in the field? I have a friend with a BC and he has never been taught to herd yet he will herd her horses. How can that be if learned behaviours are not passed on? Could it be that some behaviors have been taught so much to certain breeds that the behaviur becomes ingrained into breeeding lines.


I thought you didnt believe in breed traits? Coz that is a very good arguement for how breed traits are developed! All we do with working dogs is to emphasize some aspect of their natural hunt kill behaviour. With herding you are amping up the stalking behaviour and reducing the desire to kill the 'prey'.
Our old family BC would of been crap at herding sheep...however he often made the attempt to edge the family closer together if he thought we were straying!! LOL


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Right, the inherent behavior is fine tuned, but it's obvious that the trait is there.
> If by some miracle I were to teach my great dane to herd (don't laugh), and then bred her (another miracle since she's spayed), that herding that she managed to learn is not something that would be passed on to her offspring.
> 
> Learned behaviors are not passed down.
> ...


I find this interesting as I have a Border Collie from working stock. His 'parents' are both working sheepdogs, though JJ came to me at 8 weeks old. My existing dog has no herding behaviours at all so he didn't learn them from her. I've never done sheepdog trials so I don't know what specific behaviours they need to do the job. DESPITE THIS, by the time he was 4 months old he was already starting to do what I call the 'collie creep' ... where they lower their body a little as they're still running or walking forwards. (towards sheep usually) At this point he had never seen a sheep here.

He arrived Nov so on xmas day I took them to the lake, to my knowledge this was the first time he had seen ducks he was 4 months old and automatically went into the 'creep' to try and sneak up on them. As he got older and was walking more along pavements he started to do the turning his head quick at cars speeding up and moving as if he was going to chase after them (he was on lead). My older dog consistently stood still and never did this, to show him what to do, but despite this its something he still does at nearly 3 years old given chance and is the single thing that has taken the most training to teach him to control his compulsion and something we have to work on EVERY walk.

It's not cos he's a slow learner or just doesn't get it as he's learnt loads of stuff that collies don't traditionally do such as alerting me to sounds and helping me round the house, he even does them before I've asked! ..but this one single thing he struggles with I can see him trying and if I stop and make him stop he will sit or stand as car whizzes past. He's so good in all other areas but this is more like a compulsion that he struggles to control.

We have come across sheep since and he definitely knows what they are and can see his instincts wanting to kick in if we're going along road and they're in a field on his side...he goes into the crouch. (even though we're on the road and not in the field) he doesn't do this when we go past horses! He's never been in a field with them or to training classes where anyone has taught him how to herd properly. I find the Nature V Nurture debate really interesting.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ouesi said:


> *Right, the inherent behavior is fine tuned, but it's obvious that the trait is there.*
> If by some miracle I were to teach my great dane to herd (don't laugh), and then bred her (another miracle since she's spayed), that herding that she managed to learn is not something that would be passed on to her offspring.
> 
> Learned behaviors are not passed down.
> ...


Sometimes not just a 'trait'. Border collies instinctively offer balancing behaviour (balance at the 12 oclock position to the handler), flanking, outruns and all those lovely behaviours that we need to keep a flock together, without having being taught.

Of course these behaviours are the result of a selectively bred FAP response (there's your trait) that has been bred for generations that makes the dog offering such behaviours to uncontrolled movement stimuli so probable.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I want to pick up the point about certain human aggressive dogs that "just like using their teeth on humans".

I think there needs to be a bit more context given with that classification.

As an aside I would contest that though. I think whether the emotional response is fearful, anxious, frustrated, wound up, conflicted, over stimulated, over-excited... whatever:

If they get past that state of arousal where they can no longer keep their sh*t together, or using teeth becomes the only viable option then they are not in a good place. They're not having fun anymore.
Eustress (if indeed applicable) rapidly becomes distress.
They don't "just like biting".

I think labeling them as such is rather unhelpful actually, because it changes the way we view what is probably a rather troubled animal that needs some understanding and help. Not to be labelled an "arsehole".

Nothing in life is as simple as our classifications make out.

Behaviour is complex.


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## Angiex1 (Mar 23, 2015)

I've kept up with this thread and found it interesting.
I remember getting a dog years ago from a kennels, yes it was picked up as a stray and they do not assess them, but these dogs need decent homes aswell, we found one and it was a flat coat retriever, he was beautiful, and seemed lovely when we walked him though pulled like a train on lead, we got him home and he knew sit, lie down, to go on his bed, he was clean in the house, though we were expecting accidents as it was all new to him.
But even though he was great with me and my partner and my teenage son, he kept snapping and snarling at my little girl, she didn't touch him or look at him just walked past and he went for her, in no way did we blame the dog, we blamed the previous owners. We had no choice but to return him to the kennels, though at least we could by then give them some information on the dog by then, they told us to see if there was another dog that we liked and we saw one which was a Staffy x Rottie, absolutely lovely, again when got him home he new sit, lie down get on your bed and was clean in the house, he was wonderful with all of us including my little girl, he was a older dog aswell and thoroughly lovely, but he was dog aggressive we found this out when someone let there dog run in his face and he snarled, she blamed him, I told her to get her dog under control mine was on his lead not running upto and getting into strange dogs faces, he was also terrified when we first got him if we lifted our hands higher than our shoulders or we shouted from one room to the other, he would cower, shake and cry and end up on his back flinching.
With the first dog I would say someone has let there young child pull it about and hurt it, that is the owners fault, with the second one I would say it was the owners fault for not socialising him and would also take a guess someone took their hands to him and bellowed at him, he eventually trusted us and stopped the cowering and shaking if we reached a cupboard for something or shouted up the stairs.
My dog was kept responsibly not allowed near other dogs, or my cats which was not fun at times but unavoidable, and he had plenty of fun times with us playing and having lots of love.
Don't blame the breed, blame the owners who havent a clue with what they are doing.
Sadly its the dogs that end up suffering


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2015)

lemmsy said:


> I want to pick up the point about certain human aggressive dogs that "just like using their teeth on humans".
> 
> I think there needs to be a bit more context given with that classification.
> 
> ...


I was trying to quickly make a point about the complexities of canine aggression towards humans. The article that poster used argues that some breeds were selected for unpredictable aggression and are thus inherently dangerous, and I could not disagree more. Aggression is far too complex to select for in breeding anyway, and plus, the article did not distinguish between aggression and prey drive which are two entirely different things. 
While I agree that my "******* dog" comment was a bit flippant, I would also argue that there are indeed dogs out there who are just jerks, and some who learn to enjoy live bites. They're not upset, they're not scared, they're not pushed, they're happily poking holes in flesh.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Is it supposed to be ironic that one of the OP's chihuahuas appears to be called Cujo?


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

Shoshannah said:


> Is it supposed to be ironic that one of the OP's chihuahuas appears to be called Cujo?


DUH Yes, ironic in how a Chihuahua is bred to be a lapdog pet and is not capable of the destruction of the name sake Cujo (albeit that was a St Bernard under the influence of rabies rather than a breed bred for violence such as those I have cited).

I find it hilarious yet tragic that the thread has sprawled 25 pages since I checked out of this asylum, It seems your insecurities about the dangerous dogs you own are so deep rooted that you felt compelled to reassure yourselves by debating and defending them again, and again and again...

I am astounded by the* delusion*, *denial* and the *deranged irrationality* here.

The* delusion* is in not acknowledging that Staffies, Rottweilers, Akitas and the like were bred for any other reason than their inherent power and brutal violence. For example, having the callous nerve to cling onto "the nanny dog" description is perverse given how many innocent kids have been mauled to death or seriously maimed and scarred. These were never intended to be domestic pets and now the poor defenceless kids and dogs that were meant as pets have to suffer the terrible consequences of this experimentation.

The *denial* is in dismissing the incontrovertible evidence in the stats and relentless horror stories as urban legends and media hype - are you claiming the multitude of dead kids are fiction and those who survived with such heinous injuries were photo shopped?! When I posted the graphic images of the agony these dogs have inflicted you ran crying to the moderators to have it censored. It is mental to claim small dogs are capable of the same devastating carnage. It is pathetic to try and drudge up some freak, isolated incidents to substantiate this against the vastly overwhelming profile and fatal / very serious nature of attacks involving danger dog breeds. While it is unacceptable for any dog to bite a human or someone else's dog, nobody with a brain, education or common sense could ever claim the stakes are equal. I am bewildered that any responsible parent could contemplate which breed to introduce to their family home and decide a Staffie / Rottweiler / Akita was the best choice. It is blatantly obvious that the size, strength and history of these breeds renders a child too vulnerable and the cliché constantly featured in the endless reports of savage attacks is "he was a big softie"... Even if you subscribe to "deed not breed" the physicality of the dog versus the kids should be enough to deter you from taking that risk. The truth is you got that dog for yourself, not the kids. I also am appalled by the small dog owners that have subjected their defenceless pets to a situation where even if the Staffie or such doesn't turn on it (which they have on many occasions) the difference of scale in the dogs means that even good natured play could result in awful injury for the small dog like having their spine crushed. When you took in a small, fragile dog you assumed a duty to protect it. That none of you has yet experienced tragedy in these choices is by luck not design.

The *deranged irrationality* is in how rather than realistically address any of this, you just gang up on anyone who disagrees with you and blame anyone and everything else rather than admitting the risks you've taken in choosing certain breeds and how such decisions can affect everyone else.

I simply came this because it was a Pet Forum and I felt my small dogs would have equal rights of consideration here, as would I as an owner just trying to look after my beloved little dogs. I felt menaced by the breeds I criticised not from media hyperbole, but through my own experience in the disturbing experiences I have personally witnessed or known that other dog owners have endured. It has reached a stage where I am conflicted between wanting to walk my dogs for their exercise and wellbeing versus risking their lives. But it seems bully breeds attract bully owners and you have only affirmed my concerns because you are all so in denial, delusional and irrational about your breeds history and what it is capable of.

Thank goodness I found sane forums where many other owners of normal dogs are as sick of it as me and understand exactly where I am coming from. Even the owners of dangerous breeds empathise and try to be helpful. Whereas here it's like you have become your own nasty pack.


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## dogsaintdumb (Mar 21, 2015)

Piss off!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

dogsaintdumb said:


> Piss off!


Wow. what a vocabulary you have, your dog might not be dumb but you seem to be.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)




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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> I simply came this because it was a Pet Forum and I felt my small dogs would have equal rights of consideration here, as would I as an owner just trying to look after my beloved little dogs.


and had you kept to that then you wouldve been welcomed with open arms, and, discovered that many of us also own small breeds, I myself have a volpino and a chinese crested, either with, I also have a mastiff x boxer, or without larger breeds, bull breeds or not, that yes would be capable of killing them, if not for the fact we train them well
It was your insistence on demeaning all bull breeds as killers, rather than castigating the owners of some, who because of their own insecurities, or lack of knowledge, allow their dogs,_* of any breeds,*_ to be out of control thugs

no dog is a born killer, they are either made by us, taught by us or react to something that we humans have caused
*
THAT IS ANY DOG, NOT BULLBREEDS, NOT POODLES, NOT CHIHUAHUAS BUT ANY DAMN DOG ON THIS PLANET INCLUDING WILD DOGS*


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

The only person around here deranged/delusional and irrational is you my dear. Many of us expressed understanding of why small dogs owners might feel vulnerable and I seriously do understand that - however my pointers are just as much of a risk to your small dogs (who may view them as prey) as my big rottie is yet time and again you have targeted our dogs calling them disgusting names and making judgements about parents and owners let alone referring to people as white trash and asking me if I was too just because of the breed of dog I own. Seeing as you have found such a good forum with people who share your ignorance and prejudice why don't you stick to that one in future and let those of us with more knowledge and understanding of our dogs live in peace.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

mrs phas said:


> and had you kept to that then you wouldve been welcomed with open arms, and, discovered that many of us also own small breeds, I myself have a volpino and a chinese crested, either with, I also have a mastiff x boxer, or without larger breeds, bull breeds or not, that yes would be capable of killing them, if not for the fact we train them well
> It was your insistence on demeaning all bull breeds as killers, rather than castigating the owners of some, who because of their own insecurities, or lack of knowledge, allow their dogs,_* of any breeds,*_ to be out of control thugs
> 
> no dog is a born killer, they are either made by us, taught by us or react to something that we humans have caused
> ...


Nope, I was not welcomed with open arms, I was attacked and so I defended myself. There is much merit to blaming owners not the dogs, and I sympathise with that, however the stats implicate the dogs and even good owners have been turned on. You can only train a dog to overcome it's innate tendencies so far and to assume anything else is Captain Ahab syndrome, You have to acknowledge that no matter how hard you work to train these dogs they still pose a mortality risk to kids and other people's dogs.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Nope, I was not welcomed with open arms, I was attacked and so I defended myself. There is much merit to blaming owners not the dogs, and I sympathise with that, however the stats implicate the dogs and even good owners have been turned on. You can only train a dog to overcome it's innate tendencies so far and to assume anything else is Captain Ahab syndrome, You have to acknowledge that no matter how hard you work to train these dogs they still pose a mortality risk to kids and other people's dogs.


Utter crap. My rottie is frightened of other dogs and will do everything she can to avoid them.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The only person around here deranged/delusional and irrational is you my dear. Many of us expressed understanding of why small dogs owners might feel vulnerable and I seriously do understand that - however my pointers are just as much of a risk to your small dogs (who may view them as prey) as my big rottie is yet time and again you have targeted our dogs calling them disgusting names and making judgements about parents and owners let alone referring to people as white trash and asking me if I was too just because of the breed of dog I own. Seeing as you have found such a good forum with people who share your ignorance and prejudice why don't you stick to that one in future and let those of us with more knowledge and understanding of our dogs live in peace.


Knowledge and understanding would be to acknowledge the history and the risks you are exposing not only yourselves to but also the rest of your community who did not choose that and just want to walk their normal domestic pets in peace. The emails of the 25pages added onto this thread are what brought me back, as well as the support of other owners being disgusted by the attitudes in this thread.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Nope, I was not welcomed with open arms, I was attacked and so I defended myself. There is much merit to blaming owners not the dogs, and I sympathise with that, however the stats implicate the dogs and even good owners have been turned on. You can only train a dog to overcome it's innate tendencies so far and to assume anything else is Captain Ahab syndrome, You have to acknowledge that no matter how hard you work to train these dogs they still pose a mortality risk to kids and other people's dogs.


We tried to be nice, tried to explain to you that you shouldn't blame the dog.

And then we realised you were a brick wall and weren't going to listen to anything we say. All you wanted was a Bull Breed bashing thread, not advice, not information. And then you insult us with your stereotypes. Go annoy someone else crazy lady!


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

RottieRubysMum said:


> We tried to be nice, tried to explain to you that you shouldn't blame the dog.
> 
> And then we realised you were a brick wall and weren't going to listen to anything we say. All you wanted was a Bull Breed bashing thread, not advice, not information. And then you insult us with your stereotypes. Go annoy someone else crazy lady!


The crazy lady is the arrogant moron who thinks she can have a Rottweiler under her complete control.


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Utter crap. My rottie is frightened of other dogs and will do everything she can to avoid them.


Can't be that stable, well-adjusted or trained then can she???


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> To all the owners of large, aggressive breeds here, it is easy for you to say all this because you don't own small dogs that are so defenceless and can end up suffering a terrible death or extensive surgeries, painful recovery and permanent trauma from the damage inflicted by a Staffordshire or similar breed. Yes, small dogs can be aggressive but this is not relevant since the harm they are capable of doing is not severe. When you have a small dog that you cherish and are responsible for then this is very stressful. The fact is that Staffies and there cross breeds are constantly involved in many of the nastiest incidents, it is not being breed prejudiced to say this, it is a fact, further substantiated with the behaviour I have personally witnessed of them brutally savaging small dogs and lunging at mine unprovoked. I am not projecting anything onto my dogs, they are wary because of what they have experienced. Small dogs need exercise too and deserve to be able to enjoy the public parks without fear of being ripped apart because of the presence of breeds which were never intended to be domestic pets. Yes, a lot of it is down to the owners and there has to be more regulation for the sake of the public and the dogs about who should be allowed to own such dogs and what provisions are necessary to protect small dogs and kids from them. But the breeds do have a predisposition to aggression and there size and power makes this dangerous. The Akita that tore a little Westies throat open had a responsible owner who exercised it on a lead and in a separate area of the park from the other dogs, but it broke away from him.


Up until post no 9, which i have quoted in full above,and, was by you, everyone was sympathetic to your plight
it was this post that made hackles rise, you latterly went on to accuse people of being blinkered, putting their own children at risk, irresponsible owners purely because of the breed they choose to own......... blah blah blah

You are thecause of your own demise and, like mst others in this position blame everyone else, except themselves
look in the mirror hun, and take the mask off

now to quote a higher authority

pi$$ off.............youre just damned boring


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2015)

Gizmo&Cujo, if you’re genuine, I am truly sorry you have had bad experiences with other dogs. I am actually very understanding of people who are afraid of dogs for any reason. In fact, I have spent a good bit of time working with children who are afraid of dogs, using our own very well behaved, friendly dogs as help. It’s one of the most rewarding things in the world to have a child who is too terrified to even move, to eventually get to the point that they can pet and play with a big dog - even great danes! 

If you have had such bad experiences, I hope you avail yourself of professional help to overcome your and your dogs’ fears. Many trainers have excellent stooge dogs and the people skills to help humans and dogs overcome this exact sort of issue. 

Aside from that, I wish you many happy experiences with big, powerful dogs. The love they have to offer is pretty powerful too


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## Angiex1 (Mar 23, 2015)

If you saw my post it was a flat coated retriever that went for my young child, not the staffy x rottie that she could hand feed, under supervision, and yes he couldn't be near other dogs, but being a RESPONSIBLE OWNER I never let him off lead, or near another dog or animal what so ever, he never curled a lip or growled or barked at anyone, the postman gave him treats as he never barked at him once, and growled once when and irresponsible owner let there off lead dog get in his face, which he was on lead theirs wasn't. I moved him away quickly and nothing happened.
Next door but one to me has a Jack Russell Terrier, who goes to bite her, snarls at her and snaps at her if she so much as goes to touch one of his toys, and he does mean it, and has bitten her more than once.
You have single minded ignored everything that has been said, regardless of breed, if the owners are not acting responsible that is when problems happen, my dog was never ever let near another dog, he never attacked another dog, and never got the chance to.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> Can't be that stable, well-adjusted or trained then can she???


That shows your ignorance. My dogs are all rescues so they come with some insecurities but she has been perfectly well trained and socialised thank you, when I walk her down our road several neighbours come out to say hello to her due to her lovely nature. She would melt even your hard and prejudiced heart. I said she does everything she can to avoid other dogs which is absolutely fine. She has never had an altercation with another dog and prefers to avoid them which is exactly what I want her to do so that ignorant people like you can't accuse her of frightening their dogs just by sharing the same breathing space.


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## RottieRubysMum (Apr 6, 2015)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> The crazy lady is the arrogant moron who thinks she can have a Rottweiler under her complete control.


I wish someone would control you 

Can we get a muzzle on this thing? She won't stop barking and acting aggressive. Clearly not trained very well!


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2015)

This is a really good article from someone who actually investigates dog bite fatalities. (Spoiler alert: it's not about breed.)

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/jim-crosby-dog-attacks-aggression-expert


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## Gizmo&CujotheChis (Apr 22, 2015)

ouesi said:


> This is a really good article from someone who actually investigates dog bite fatalities. (Spoiler alert: it's not about breed.)
> 
> http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/jim-crosby-dog-attacks-aggression-expert


I get that, but the fact is that every time I see or hear about the worst and most serious maulings it is always associated with key breeds? How can I process that reality alongside the academic theories?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Gizmo&CujotheChis said:


> The *denial* is in dismissing the incontrovertible evidence in the stats and relentless horror stories as urban legends and media hype


Your denial, despite evidence whilst failing to provide any of your own may account for some of that. Your sole argument is based on media whereas ours is based on actual studies. Well done for ignoring the difference between dog vs dog attacks and dog vs human as they are not the same thing and need to be treated separately.

You can look for yourself how in October 2000 a 6-week-old baby was killed by her family's Pomeranian in the states. Note if this has been a bully breed the sentence would read "mauled to pieces by her family's Pomeranian" and you would have had it plastered everywhere including internationally, Fox and CNN. That is media, ignoring the fact that many attacks by other breeds exist as they aren't deemed newsworthy.

Well done for your denial that small dogs can do any harm, including psychological harm which can actually make larger dogs aggressive when they weren't before.

No, we are not saying bully breeds are paragons of virtue. We are saying they are dogs and need to be handled with respect and as dogs, just as chihuahuas are. No professional "dog" body dealing with Breed Specific Legislation (BSL) supports it as it is based on falsehoods. That's not denial, that's reality.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closing this


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