# Pts



## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

We have decided to have Duke PTS. Mainly because he has nipped me which broke the skin, only just managed to get away without stitches, he has now started growling and showing his teeth at the children. We have taken him to the vets for a full checkup, they've taken blood tests and a poo sample but he is right as rain. 

We just can't risk it, especially with me being a Childminder.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Would it not be fairer to put him in rescue? I really think having him PTS is unfair, something must have triggered this behaviour and I think you're making the wrong decision....killing a dog because he's uncomfortable in a situation(the growling) seems a bit of a snap decision and I would always look at rehoming before taking a dogs life.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm sorry you're in this position 

I'm afraid I agree with Ballybee - can you not hand him to a rescue and they can place him with someone who can work on his issues?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

This is not a snap decision at all. Nobody here knows the full situation so don't pass judgement on my choice.


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

I wasn't passing judgement, I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I can't imagine the pain this is causing you. Sometimes an 'outsider' can give a different point of view, and I think most people here would want to offer alternative scenarios for Duke. But obviously we only know what you told us.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I would rather take him than see him PTS. I never encounter children.


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## Longton Flyball (Nov 6, 2011)

Don't do it please. 

Go find a dog behaviourist it looks like you've had him since a pup don't let him down when he needs you the most.

There has to be a reason why he's behaving this way.

Also I have a Duke. He looks a gorgeous boy and probably needs some help please don't give up on him yet. Do not pts find a good home that's experienced.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Wouldn't it be fairer to give him another chance by putting him in a rescue rather than just condemning the animal and giving him no chance at all?

No Dog is a lost cause.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Mightn't it be worth getting a behaviourist in to assess the situation first?


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescues are choc full of dogs who don't bite it's not always fair to justgi e to dog to rescue to let someone else sort. Especially as you would need to be honest with them.

What breed is he?

Can you seek the advice of a good behaviourist ie one who uses the right methods and see what they say? They should insist on a full health check up first and may come up with some good suggestions.. Or if he cannot stay may give you the confidence to find a new home away from the things in his environment he finds are triggers?

It's not always fair to just pass a dog that bites onto rescue... Obviously depends on the whole situation and circumstances of whether he can be rehabilitated else where but if not he could sit there for ages before potentially being put to sleep if bites others.

It's a hard call and not something thatcanbe judged over the net but at least the behaviorist can give you proper professional advice.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

Shrap said:


> I would rather take him than see him PTS. I never encounter children.


Nicole - please at least allow Shrap to have a chance before you have Duke PTS.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Can understand it's a shock and worry 

Is it worth writing down events that lead up to thebite and also growling to see if it helps establish a pattern I found that really useful when my dog started getting funny with others.

If it's a sudden new behaviour too may give a clue or hadit been building up?

Some insurance policies cover behaviourists ...


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

Hey

Its always a difficult decision to make when kids are involved.

I had a dog that I thought was ok with kids, until my youngest was cruising the furniture.

The first time he went for my son, he was eating and DS was crawling towards him, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. The second time, DS was pulling himself up using the sofa and the dog went for him and drew blood. 

My OH at the time was all for having him PTS, but I chose to have him rehomed. I explained the situation and said that under no circumstances should he be homed with kids any age.

He was rehomed with an older couple and was loved to bits.

If you do change your mind and take him to be rehomed, make sure they know everything.

I know what its like and I support WHATEVER choice you make


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

OK, difficult decision. Put bluntly I don't know the situation but with the PF crowd you know you'll get answers of NO whenever PTS is mentioned unless for severe medical reasons so why mention it?

Will say in defence.. How many non-aggressive dogs are PTS each day from rescues? If Duke took a space in a rescue would this mean a non-aggressive dog would be PTS in his place? Harsh I know but sometimes we need to look at realities. In black and white.. rescuing Duke likely means another dog isn't.


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## henry (Mar 16, 2009)

I agree with the above, but Shrap here has said she'll take him rather than Nicole put him to sleep. She doesn't have children apparently, so I would urge Nicole to at least think about that offer.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Shrap definitely has no kids, neither do I and if my circumstances were different I'd offer Duke a home too. Killing is an absolute last resort, Duke doesn't sound like he's being aggressive it sounds like he's scared of the children and is warning them off...hardly a reason to have him put down. As for the nipping, well dogs nip, it's upto the owners to train them out of it.

As Shrap said, there's a place in her house for Duke and he'd never be around kids.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Goblin said:


> OK, difficult decision. Put bluntly I don't know the situation but with the PF crowd you know you'll get answers of NO whenever PTS is mentioned unless for severe medical reasons so why mention it?
> 
> Will say in defence.. How many non-aggressive dogs are PTS each day from rescues? If Duke took a space in a rescue would this mean a non-aggressive dog would be PTS in his place? Harsh I know but sometimes we need to look at realities. In black and white.. rescuing Duke likely means another dog isn't.


Agreed; I wouldn't ever say 'NO' under any circumstances, but am all for exploring options first like a behaviourist in case it is something that can be solved relatively easily. A friend of mine had her GSD pts after it bit one of her children very badly (after the vet / behaviourist assessments) and I absolutely supported her decision.


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

A lot of people would have a healthy dog PTS just because they don't want it anymore. But that isn't the issue.

Any dog that is aggressive round kids is a risk. Until anyone has been in this situation, how can you judge the OP.

Nobody wants the dog PTS but, getting aggressive and not knowing the whole situation doesn't help anyone.

There are always other options, but when you are emotional you choose the best option you see at the time.

I was lucky that I knew an RSPCA officer and also that my Mum was willing to help me out.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Wow what a thread :

Firstly my condolences to you - This must be a heart breaking situation to find your family in and of course your family's safety has to come first. 

Firstly good on you for having the strength to tell your friends on PF - As Goblin said 98% orf answers will probably argue against your decision and you most likely knew that before you posted.

I just wanted to say no one one this forum knows the complete story, stress and upset you have been going through :frown2: Only you and your family know the situation. I can completely understand not wanting to rehome a dog who has bitten / you dont trust around children. 

Im not going give you any advice as quite frankly I am not an expert enough in order to provide any 

I just wanted to say im thinking of you at this time :crying:


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> This is not a snap decision at all. Nobody here knows the full situation so don't pass judgement on my choice.


Ive been through this, its an incredibly hard decision, i really do feel for you.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Is Duke a GSD if so might be worth giving these people a ring German Shepherd Dogs German Shepherd Puppies UK


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

I can understand your worry as my son 2yrs old at time was attacked by my b/inlaws Dobe front of his face back of head and his ear had to stitched back on as was almost ripped off ,dog had his full face in its mouth i was at work at time i remember that phonecall to work ,still has scars he is 21 now b/inlaw got dog pts that day  i dont blame the dog as they had taken in little stray terrier and think the Dobe was getting pestered by it


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Dogs should be taught not to nip but it's a slightly different kettle of fish when they inflict a wound that could need stitches? That's to dog upping the ante. 

I think no one can judge over the net.. Just advise the op to consider all the options first so whatever decision is made comes from an informed viewpoint and not something made in the haste of upset. 

It's really nice shrap has offered to help. Normally on forums everyone says don't put to sleep. Rehome theycould come here but... Which is of no help.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

new westie owner said:


> I can understand your worry as my son 2yrs old at time was attacked by my b/inlaws Dobe front of his face back of head and his ear had to stitched back on as was almost ripped off ,dog had his full face in its mouth i was at work at time i remember that phonecall to work ,still has scars he is 21 now b/inlaw got dog pts that day  i dont blame the dog as they had taken in little stray terrier and think the Dobe was getting pestered by it


I think that's different to a dog giving a warning growl. If he had launched himself at a child I would understand, but he's not ripped anyone's face off.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

ballybee said:


> Shrap definitely has no kids, neither do I and if my circumstances were different I'd offer Duke a home too. Killing is an absolute last resort, Duke doesn't sound like he's being aggressive it sounds like he's scared of the children and is warning them off...hardly a reason to have him put down. As for the nipping, well dogs nip, it's upto the owners to train them out of it.
> 
> As Shrap said, there's a place in her house for Duke and he'd never be around kids.


Very hard to judge these things over the net though; none of us were there to see what happened. To me it sounds more than a nip to draw blood to the point of considering whether stitches are required too.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

EmCHammer said:


> Dogs should be taught not to nip but it's a slightly different kettle of fish when they inflict a wound that could need stitches? That's to dog upping the ante.
> 
> I think no one can judge over the net.. Just advise the op to consider all the options first so whatever decision is made comes from an informed viewpoint and not something made in the haste of upset.
> 
> It's really nice shrap has offered to help. Normally on forums everyone says don't put to sleep. Rehome theycould come here but... Which is of no help.


Let's not mistake a nip for a bite though, if he wanted to bite he would have. I understand I don't have all the info, but from the info given I don't see the problem with him coming here...


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

I never said he did just saying i understand her fears for kids thats all


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

No advice, no opinion, just wanted to say I feel for you, what a horrible heart-rending situation you find yourself in.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Shrap said:


> Let's not mistake a nip for a bite though, if he wanted to bite he would have. I understand I don't have all the info, but from the info given I don't see the problem with him coming here...


It's down to semantics here though - to me a nip pinches the skin, a bite causes a wound that people consider whether or not to suture closed.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Very hard to judge these things over the net though; none of us were there to see what happened.


Spot on - We can only jump to conclusions based on the small information provided.

And its likely the OP doesnt want to share everything online for fear of being ripped to pieces over a topic which is heart breaking and emotional enough.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Very hard decission to make good luck


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I'm so sorry Nicole, your heart must be breaking 

If you haven't done already speak to some local rescues and get some advice they maybe able to take him.

Duke is a gorgeous boy - but I totally understand where you are coming from. I know this isn't a quick or easy decision.
Your little girls are too precious to but at Risk and if I wanted a child minder I wouldn't choose someone with a large dog that was growling at my kids 

A very Kind offer from Shrap  - but I'm afraid the logistics may be too difficult to get Duke all the way uo to Glasgow from the south coast of england


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## beris (Aug 30, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> This is not a snap decision at all. Nobody here knows the full situation so don't pass judgement on my choice.


I feel very sorry for your situation and not going to pass comment on your decision as you have not given a complete account of your situation. 
However, as a member of PF you must have known that posting a pts on PF without posting the full information was going to spark some controversy. Therefore, I don't think you should criticise people for stating their opinions and trying to help you.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Shrap don't get me wrong wasn't trying to nit pick and I think it's great you have offered.. As you say he hasn't done anything worse maybe he would bite again maybe not but does seem a good option to come to you.

Was more responding to a comment that dogs can be taught not to nip.. When in my mind if a dog has caused someone to potentially need stitches it's probably simplifying to say they can be taught not to nip? With the right ki d methods experience and environment then maybe they can be


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Dogless said:


> It's down to semantics here though - to me a nip pinches the skin, a bite causes a wound that people consider whether or not to suture closed.


You're right it is because to me a nip is using incisors and a bite is using all teeth lol.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

I think the offer Shrap has made is commendable and it's worthwhile to explore that option but outside of this forum. Probably useful if Shrap learns the full story via personal communication before any decision is made. There's obviously a lot of emotions involved and future feelings must also be taken into account. I can imagine a lot of "what ifs" down the line.

I know I frequently make the mistake of checking online rescues and despair, despite the fact that Germany does not have a rescue problem. It's even worse checking UK rescues where the threat of being PTS is real. We simply can't have any more dogs and treat them as they should.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Shrap said:


> You're right it is because to me a nip is using incisors and a bite is using all teeth lol.


Exactly...it is that to me additionally. Anyway; I wasn't criticising your offer; just wondering whether you might not want a little more info first or behavioural assessment as we don't really know the circumstances here. I would do, however I am not a very experienced owner (only a few dogs), whereas I'm not sure whether you have had GSDs for many, many years; that is probably the difference between us!


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I was going by the same definition as dogless

it can be possible to get dogs from one end of the country to another.. With the help of volunteers etc depends on if would stress him out. 

Could be worth speaking to other experienced owners on somewhere like big gsd website?


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I've been sat here all morning crying. Now I've written it down I just can't do it. I've cancelled the appointment  not sure what to do now just see how it goes


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> I've been sat here all morning crying. Now I've written it down I just can't do it. I've cancelled the appointment  not sure what to do now just see how it goes


I'm sorry you are in this situation.  I'd maybe talk to Shrap about her offer. Growling at children is an issue and you can't risk it, so I'd look at rehoming to an experienced owner. Being a childminder, you can't have him in the house. But I think PTS should be a very last resort.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> I've been sat here all morning crying. Now I've written it down I just can't do it. I've cancelled the appointment  not sure what to do now just see how it goes


Honey it might be worth getting a behaviourist in. I know how much patience and hard work you've put in with duke, it might be worth a shot just to see what they say

Think it through and take your time. If it comes down to rehoming him Shrap has made a lovely offer and I will come pick him up and take him half way to her.

*hugs*


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Maybe writing down the history, and what you done already to correct this behaviour would help? Then people could understand, and hopefully offer advice?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> I've been sat here all morning crying. Now I've written it down I just can't do it. I've cancelled the appointment  not sure what to do now just see how it goes


Contact rescues, although they wouldnt take ours as i told then the truth, check out behaviourists because if it does come to putting to sleep you will need to know you have done everything for your dont prior to it. Our dog was just under 12 months old extremely aggressive, it escalted from a growl,baring teeth, a nip to full blown bite. Do put the word out there as much as possible we hit so many brick wall, but 20mins before barney was due to be pts we got a call from someone who knew someone we had contacted, so do explore every avenue because it could be from the most unlikely source someone comes forward. Its a horrible situation i really hope it doesnt come to pts but please dont let people make you feel guilty because if the worse happens it isnt them that have to pick up the pieces, its you because ts your dog that bitten, ime afraid you will always be dammed if you do and dammed if you dont, you do the right thing for you.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

NicoleW said:


> I've been sat here all morning crying. Now I've written it down I just can't do it. I've cancelled the appointment  not sure what to do now just see how it goes


Bless you.

How easy is it to seperate Duke from the kids? I'd keep him on a lead at all times when you are supervising him with the kids for now.
Have you been in contact with any behaviourists to come and assess him?
Or even a 1-2-1 trainer?
I've not got enough knowledge or experience to know where to start - I really hope you can get some face to face advice.

Have you spoken to a GSD (and is Duke 1/2 Husky? ) Husky rescue to see if they can help? Maybe rehoming him is something you could explore more?


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

What a difficult situation to be in, I hope you can resolve this in everyones best interest, my first thought was ....what abut rescue, but as someone has pointed out...rescues are full of dogs with no issues so the chances of a rehome for one with issues is slim,the private rehome suggestion is one maybe to think of? I really do feel it for you, it isn't a decision I'd want to find myself with. I hope you can find a solution


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

Firstly, I'm so sorry that you're having to make this decision, it must be heartbreaking for you 

Obviously on PF if someone posts a thread saying they're having their dog PTS, without giving all the details and reasons behind this decision, it goes without saying that the majority of people are going question whether you're doing the right thing...you're right we don't know the full story (and I'm not saying you should give it either, thats your choice of course) but nobody is judging you...we are just giving the natural reaction that any dog lover would give to the news.

I also have young children who are given my first priority so I do understand that part of it but I don't know the full ins and outs of what has happened, so I'm certainly not going to tell you you're wrong...But based on the info I do know I would say that Shrap's fantastic offer is worth considering, I know the logistics of it all would need some thought and planning, however if you two could speak in private and Shrap has been given the full details you might just be able to sort something out hopefully.

Whatever your final decision please don't think I'm judging you at all...I'm more than sure you have been through plenty of emotional turmoil already so all I can add to that is to say sorry and good luck....whatever final decision you make.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

NicoleW, I don't know your situation at home but maybe try to talk to someone on a personal level one to one not on the internet as it cannot always get feelings across. If you don't have anyone local I am sure there are enough people on here who wouldn't mind getting a telephone call and act as a shoulder to cry on. At this stage someone prepared to listen is probably what you need.

Edit: Although I'm not the best person on here, if you need, send a PM and I will pass on details.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I have not read the whole thread but I get the jist that Duke is GSD Kent police are looking for GSD at the mo aged between 12/18mths if Duke is this way inclined allow him to go with the police so his energy can be channelled and his aggression molded...

I could be wrong but the dog recruitment drive was only a month ago.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

If I recall right which i'm sure I do Duke is Gsd x husky.

What an awful decision to have to make and I feel for you and for Duke. I would offer to take him myself as I visit Southampton a fair bit but i'm in position to take on another dog right now. Shrap has made an offer but of course it will always be your decision, sadly we've no clue and it's not our business to know what's gone on but I can only wish you the best.

If you want to chat i'm happy to offer support in whatever you decide. 

I wish you both the best x


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

We've had 3 behaviourists in so far, and now we're out of money! Had to raid my daughters piggy bank this morning to get some food to last us til monday.

Anyway we've properly talked about it this morning and we've decided to keep him, I couldn't bear the thought of loosing him, he's my baby and I love him so much.


Is there anyone on here who could temporarily look after him for a week? Just so we can get a plan of action together and so we have chance to be calm to make the training really work this time.

The only thing he really does it bark at people he is unsure of, but not in an aggressive way in a fearful kind of way.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I can't rep you as I'm on my Phone but I'm so happy to read this. If you need any help at all please PM me and I'll call you. 

Have you spoken to a rescue? They may be able to help you on the behaviourist front? I was offered a behaviourist from a staffy rescue when I took on cassie, and she's a private foster so they didn't have to.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I feel for you - I've been in the same situation and we gave the dog a good few chances and tried everything but her agression got worse so we ended up pts - the releif was enormous to be honest as we had been living with a time bomb, but that is a last resort descision, but in no way should you risk yours and your families safety to give those chances especially with such a big powerful dog. 

Rescues are full, as others have said, and no rescue will take a dog that bites especially breeds that are hard to rehome in the first place like GSDs, it would be irresponsible to pass this problem onto someone else unless they really know what they are doing and can cope with the consequences responsibly - if it doesn't work then pts - people like that are hard to find!

I think a good behaviorist is a step forward, but are only good if you are willing to stick rigidly to what they suggest and you put an awful lot of effort in - they are not a quick fix. 
You have a VERY high energy high prey drive, but with a guarding instinct too, type of dog - they are very hard dogs to keep mentally amused and give enough excercise to - they are working breeds that need a job and someone willing to put in hours a day to them!!! 
Just out of interest how much socialising did you do with this dog as a pup? as you say he barks but out of fear - dogs with very little social skills will nip if scared or cornered - you need to be able to differentiate between fear aggression, which with alot of work is cureable, and actual aggression which is not and is dangerous - a behaviorist will be able to tell you which it is - what did the other behaviorists say about him? 

How much off the lead excercise does he get every day?, you must be a very active family if you decided to go for this type of dog in the first place!, but maybe channeling some of his energy into something constructive like agility might be something to do to work on commands, as well as just generally knackering him out on walks/bicycle rides will take away some of the drive. 
Also how old is this dog?, what are you feeding him?, has he been neutered? and when did this behavior start? Also how old are your kids and how do they behave around him? Does he have somewhere to go away from them, like a crate?

I'd also set very rigid boundaries, like not getting on furniture etc, in the house - restrict him to one or 2 rooms or just the downstairs so your children can have somewhere they don't have to be on edge all the time or in danger, always supervise children and dogs anyway. If you are going to keep him and do get progress with training then involve the kids too so he obeys them as well. Toys/bones left around are a no no unless being played with outside or under supervision - they make a good things to guard so can cause issues there.

It's your call at the end of the day as he's your pet - pets are there to enjoy and be part of the family - there is no fun in having an animal in your house that could be dangerous and that you only have in order to preserve it's life - that is not a pet!!! You will get more people than not saying it's cruel etc etc to pts a healthy animal, but they are not living with it or putting their families safety at risk, some dogs are just not cut out for the life that is expected of them and there is little option but to pts. IMO it's actually crueller to keep an animal in an existence life rather than pts. - they are pack animals and like being part of a pack not just dumped in a run/kennel outside, as so many end up, with no input because everyone is scared of it!


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

1. He has hip problems

2. I'm sure she's aware that GSDs are a guarding breed, not that that has any effect on household resource guarding. I also doubt prey drive has much to do with a fear response.

3. Why shouldn't he be allowed on the sofa? Let me guess, does that make him think he's alpha? Maybe Nicole could alpha roll him everytime he shows a fear response? (for anyone who can't tell, I'm being sarcastic and oh so witty - please don't do this).

I thought you came across quite patronising, so the tone of my post doesn't bother me at all.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

I have read all the thread and i am delighted you have decided to give Duke another chance 
but i do also feel for you, i have been in this situation before and it was not nice....dont beat yourself up, get your game plan sorted and be determined 
and if after you have tried Duke is still not trustworthy then at least you did your best, but please consider privately rehoming him to an owner that knows exactly what they are taking on,,,,rather than ending his life. In another situation he may flourish :thumbup1: good luck with it all x


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

We got him at 14 weeks old and he wasn't treated properly. He has hip displaysia so can't be exercised a lot. Which is why he has learnt things like putting washing into my machine and ringing a bell to go out the back door. 


We are goin to take him to another vet for another checkup just in case the first vet missed something


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

He doesn't really have guarding issues as he lets the cat eat food out of his bowl when he is and he doesn't have a high prey drive either he lays there and lets my cat attack him and bite his ears, let's my bearded dragon crawl all over him and my snakes sleep under his fur sometimes


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Nicole, I know money is tight, but call your vets, ask them about exercising Duke, Maybe your not giving enough exercise to stimulate him, plus exercise give the correct muscle tone which he needs to stabilise his joints, its so easy to wrap them in cotton wool hun, stimulate him lots mentally too with games if you have some spare time.
If he is tired he will behave for you more, maybe help this situations hun.
He can run on beaches and grass at his pace etc, which will help his hips.
And possible find a good behaviourist too.
xxx


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I am not going to give an opinion either way as its not fair just from reading a few bits on the internet, only you know the full situation. I just wanted to say really feel for you and hope it all goes well and I think you must be a very good person to keep trying. Many people are not as decent and would have made up some excuse and put into rescue without being honest, putting someone unsuspecting into a dangerous position. Good luck :thumbup1:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> I've been sat here all morning crying. Now I've written it down I just can't do it. I've cancelled the appointment  not sure what to do now just see how it goes


Well I wouldn't do that, that's asking for trouble and Duke *will *be pts if anything happens again! 

I would keep him away from the children (don't trust kids with dogs anyway) and make arrangements to take Sharp up on the offer. That surely isn't a heartbreaking thing to do, to let another forum member who doesn't have kids try with him. My mals don't like children, some dogs don't, so why not let Duke have a nice peaceful existence without them?

Keeping him, unless you intend to get a behaviourist in and spend much time on him yourself, is selfish when you have an offer like that. I mean a few moments ago you had him booked in for euthanasia!


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## claire & the gang (Nov 18, 2010)

Nicole i`m sure you must be torn in two at the moment. I can only imagine how it would feel to be torn between protecting your kids & a dog you have loved since a puppy.

I love all my dogs to pieces but if they threatened my child i would be forced to consider options too but it would break my heart. As well as this you have to consider your livelihood, as a childminder it can affect your work.

I really do hope some solution re behaviourist or something can help Duke to overcome his problems. 

If things do get to the point where it can`t be mended & someone like shrap was willing to take him i`d be happy to do a leg of transport x


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

All I am gonna say is - 

Dopg has HD, diagnosed at a young age - could he have been in pain and having a 'grumpy' day??

How old is he? Could he be at the adolesence stage of 'trying it on'?

When a dog acts somewhat out of character, there is always a 'trigger', sometimes the trigger is easy to spot, other times, you will never know and can only speculate.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I think Duke would be happiest at home. Get an area for him that kids are not allowed to enter. Give him kongs etc. Make sure kids don't give him any eye contact, at all. Everytime he is non reactive have the child throw a treat near him (still not looking). He will soon grow to expect it and the kids can get nearer with him not reacting and expecting the treat.

If he gives any warnings then give him space and try again later.

Does he have any favourite games? You could reserve them only for when a child is in the room? (at a safe distance)


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

What an emotional thread!
I feel for you Nicola, it isnt the best of situations and it isnt easy to know what to do for thebest.

If one of my dogs acted in a such a way, I would be too scared to have them around my children, long enough to get the dog the right help and with money tight, you have to know what you can and cant afford for the dog.
Breaking into your Childs piggy bank for food sounds like a very stressful position to be in and yur already stressed about your dogs behaviour.

You showed alot of courage to even start such an honest and emotional thread and I am glad to read that you have given Duke a chance and not decided to put him to sleep straight away, without giving it atleast more thought.

But please dont base your decision on whats best for you, your family and even Duke, on what people say on the internet.

I think behaviourists and rescue centres are always a good option! 
From what has been wrote it doesnt sound like Duke is being aggressive just for the sake of it, but as mentioned, your description could soo easily be making it sound better or worse than things really are.

My idea of a nip, is when skin is merely pinched by the teeth in rough play leaving a red mark at the most... but a bite is when skin gets broken and blood ans drawn... no matter which teath caused it or how it happened.

So you could quite easily be making it sound like something simple, when really Duke could have a serious problem and for that reason, if you do get someone to watch him for a week, you need to be very honest with everything about him, so the potential fosters know exactly what they need to be prepared for.

As Duke has bad hips, I would ask the vets about his pain levels!
Does Duke ever get "red eyes" ? That is normally a sign of pain/tiredness etc and a good sign of something is not right with the dog, which the dog is hiding... in this case, maybe Duke is getting pain from his hips, which is just enough to iritate him and cause him to lash out at others.

I only mention this as Sailor gets these red eyes, in the past it was when he was ill with a stomache problem, when he had a bad ear infection and again when he had a bad paw. On all occasions he growled alot,mainly at my children and even snapped a few times, but I was on the ball with him.
The ear infection went unoticed aswell, even the vet didnt pick up on it a few times.

He is now back to his normal self tho, but I always have a good look at his eyes, to see if his whites are looking reddish..... I think Ive become obsessed with it 

Best of luck to your family and Duke, I do hope there is positive news and things settle and he proves to be a good boy really and just in need of something extra that maybe has been overlooked.

x


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## natty01 (Sep 4, 2011)

nicole if you belive your dog is a risk to children please get him out of there , i spent years living with a dog who wasnt averse to taking a pop at people . it was management all the way and as much as i loved him it was stressfull . your a childminder you should not be taking risks with children at all , yours or other peoples. 

shrap was your offer genuine ? i dont think a rescue is the way to go its a bit of a liability to rehome a biter but likewise keeping a dog that doesnt like children in a house where there are children really isnt the answer. im not saying its impossible but is it really worth it ? if the dog is having issues with children isnt it kinder to have him somewhere he is less pressured.

i understand nobody likes to see a dog pts , i get that it sucks but please people , only nicole knows truly if she can manage this situation . it isnt right to presure her into changeing her mind , it doesnt take a lot , if you love a dog you pretty much will try any alternative to pts but that doesnt mean the alternative is better.


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## Bellaboo1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Hi i sympathise i have been in the same situation. Its very easy for others to judge when its not them having to face decisions like this, especially if they don't have kids. Good luck with whatever your decision is.


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## rottiemum (Apr 12, 2011)

sailor said:


> What an emotional thread!
> I feel for you Nicola, it isnt the best of situations and it isnt easy to know what to do for thebest.
> 
> If one of my dogs acted in a such a way, I would be too scared to have them around my children, long enough to get the dog the right help and with money tight, you have to know what you can and cant afford for the dog.
> ...


Agree with Sailor - especially on the pain levels. Have the vets checked this?
Also another thought - have they checked for hypo-thyroid? That can cause aggression as well. 
And maybe you could muzzle him if he has to be where the children are - just in case you can't be watching all the time? 
Just a few thoughts that I hope help some.
Oh, and I would take Shrap up on the offer if you do decide to rehome him. Maybe he'd be ok if no kids around?

Good luck whatever you decide


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I didn't realise his HD was so severe  what treatments does he have for it? it's a very painful condition as you probably know and i'm not surprised he gets grumpy. Does he have anti inflams and supplements or go to hydrotherapy? If he doesn't and you can't manage to do this for him and Sharp is willing then for Dukes sake it may be best to give him up. 

HD is one of the most painful conditions a dog can have and with a large dog the weight he has to bear on his hips makes it even worse. Limiting exercise is all very well but you end up with a weightier dog and the hip joints will fix making the condition worse. Hydrotherapy will add muscle without putting strain on his hips and that muscle will help support the hips taking away a lot of the pain. I take it his insurance won't cover a replacement  if it does then I would go for it as i've seen the difference it can make with my Flynn. Either way Duke will need constant treatment for his condition unfortunately!

Just to add, you can't always tell when a dog is in pain, they don't always pant and pace. Flynn would occasionally cry out having shown no sign of discomfort, so waiting for Duke to show pain is irrelevant as he may not. Do his hips make a "clukning" sound when he sits down? that is a good sign of what condition they are in too.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm so glad you decided to give Duke another chance, as others have said he might have been a bit sore that day 

Seeing as he has bad hips and can't do a lot of running upping the mental stimulation is a gret idea, kongs, nina ottensen(sp?) puzzles and other toys designed for using the brain are all great, you could also start playing "find it" a few times a day just by doing something as simple as throwing a few teats around your garden, Duke has to use his nose and brain to find the treats therefore gets a bit tired. You could also look up youtube videos and find more tricks to teach him :biggrin: I sometimes smear some honey in a toilet roll tube which Tummel loves....cheap and easy treat 

Do you have a hydrotherapy unit nearby? I know they're not cheap but maybe a couple of visits a month would help increase his muscle tone so he could exercise more? Also things like glucosamine and condroitin(again sp?) are well known for helping dogs with joint issues, i'm sure if you ask in nutrition you'll get more info and theres a lot of natural remedies for sore joints too :thumbup1:

As other have said, keep a separate area just for Duke, lets children throw him a treat if he doesn't react and he should start being interested in the kids in a positive sense but make sure everyone knows thats Dukes area so if he's stressed he can go there to chill out


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## Magnus (Oct 9, 2008)

Christ, I'd be bloody grumpy if I had snakes and bearded dragons on me! 

Ok, I know this is going to sound harsh but you were raiding your kids piggy bank to buy food for the family a few days ago, yet you're keeping at least one dog, one cat, two snakes and a lizard. I think I'd be tempted to knock the snakes up into a stew for the family, fatten the cat up on lizards and then let Duke eat the cat. 


It's a joke!!! 


Just do the best you can for him, it's all anyone has any right to expect. If you can't get past the problem then contact BIGGSD Rescue or let Shrap take him on.. 

All the best.


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## BumbleFluff (Jul 23, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I didn't realise his HD was so severe  what treatments does he have for it? it's a very painful condition as you probably know and i'm not surprised he gets grumpy. Does he have anti inflams and supplements or go to hydrotherapy? If he doesn't and you can't manage to do this for him and Sharp is willing then for Dukes sake it may be best to give him up.


I was going to suggest hydotherapy too  I agree with the above ^


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I believe you are putting your children and the children you childmind at risk,, you never know when a child will open a door and let this dog in an area with the children, i have been a childminder for many years and to be honest the way you describe your dog has rung warning bells in me. please think about getting a muzzle asap, if only to protect the children,, i am sure you are aware that you are at high risk of losing your childminding license,, please dont get me wrong but your 1st priorty must be your children and the children whose parents trust you to care for them.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Oh what a thread....i don't really have much to say because i've not really been in your situation, but i'm glad youre not giving up on him. Hope things look up soon hon..perhaps try a behaviourist again, and maybe keep him in an area separate to the children when you're minding them....or alternatively if you have a friend who he likes and doesn't have kids find out if they can sit him while you have the children around? I know you have kids of your own too and you're trying to figure out how to manage Duke around them as well..so yeah i know its a bit tricky. But don't have him pts. He hasn't hurt anyone really aside from nipping you - yet. If you find you can't keep him in the house, perhaps rehome him and make it aware to prospective owners that he doesn't like children so its important he's in a home where children arent about. Its better than putting him down....that's my opinion though....

big hugs and i hope things work out.


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

I'm very pleased to hear that you're not having Duke PTS.

However, as a mother also I am trying to put myself in your position, I know that no matter how much I love my dog with all my heart, I would not take even the smallest chance where my children are concerned...the potential consequences don't bear thinking about, the thought of trying to live with the guilt and seeing every day what my child would go through if one of them were inured (or worse) if it all went wrong is not a position I will put myself (or my kids) in...no dog is worth that.

I don't know the full facts, only you know what Duke is like and whether the threat (if any) he poses to your kids is one that can hopefully be corrected...if in doubt do not take any chances, if you can take Shrap's offer or privately rehome elsewhere then perhaps that would be the best thing for all concerned.

Saying goodbye to duke will be very sad....but dealing with the consequences of it going wrong would be beyond devastating.

I know you love him and with the difficult choices you're facing I applaud your courage and honesty, but please do think hard about moving forward with your plans to make this work with him....good luck.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Hi Nicole,

How awful for you xx 

The HD could very well be causing underlying pain which will make Duke intolerant at times. This is obviously unpredictable and with the best will in the world you just can't have a dog that is unpredictably aggressive round kids.

In an ideal world measures can be put in to place, kids and dog kept seperate etc but that would be hugely stressful for all involved and long term very hard to do in practice.

Because you have knowledge of this if is there is an incident with a child in your care you will be in a whole heap of bother professionally and would likely lose you licence to practice and could face civil action. Also ethically i think you know it would be unfair on the families who bring their kids to you as this is an avoidable risk. As a parent i would have to say i would go ballistic if my child was injured and i found out the carer had knowledge that the dog wasn't sound.

I know you will make sure this doesn't happen while you work things out in your head but i think you ought to face the reality that Duke is not a suitable dog for your family circumstances which you are not in a position to change. That doesn't mean i think he needs to be PTS and i would very much agree with the suggestions to contact GSD for some advice and a look at re homing him.

I know it is tough xx but sometimes the kindest thing we can do for our animals is put their needs first. On the surface i would suggest that Dukes breeding makes it difficult for him to accept a constant stream of strangers into the house and in our job that is what happens. Every new child dropped off by new parents will stress him and could trigger an aggressive reaction but that doesn't mean in a quieter household with no children he couldn't go on to be ok and have a happy life with someone else. No matter how much we love our dogs sometimes we are just not the owners that they need.

Good Luck xx


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

One thing I would definately do is get the vets to check his pain meds, even the most docile of dogs can become agressive if in pain. Lexi i sthe softest thing in the world, yet only this morning, I got a growl and an air snap...why? Because her feet are blistered and red raw from a reaction she is ahving to something and when I put her steriod spray on it hurts that much she whimpers, so i was getting a warning to stay the hell away with that spray, as it was I brought her round with hotdog sausage (spiked with piriton) and I was allowed to spray her feet, she is also been very grumpy with Bosley and when hubbys daughter comes over for a visit, it is on strict instructions to leave Lexi alone. She is in pain, and I appricate that, her feet are red raw and well she isn't going to stay good natured and happy when every step hurts and I think it would be wrong of me to expect that.
I'm not sure if he is insured but if so you may be able to look at claiming the costs of hydro through your insurance.


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

I'm so confused, he's just jumped up at me and scratched all my chest so his HD can't be that bad. 

I agree with the breed and not accepting strangers. When we got duke I wasn't thinking about childminding then. 


Going to sleep on it but I think privately rehoming might be the best option.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


I think this post is totally uncalled for. PTS can _sometimes_ be the best option for dogs that show aggression. It should always be a last resort, but sometimes that decision has to be taken for the sake of the people/animals around that dog.

Nicole - I agree that private rehome may be best.  As you are a childminder, those children come first before anything, and a dog that is growling at children is a warning you should take and put the dog into a home without children.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


No need for that love. Try being in her shoes and then you might actually understand why she was in such a position. but now she is rethinking things and thinking about rehoming him. So to call her disgusting and all that, is a but uncalled for because you don't know what the situation is. Nicole has already mentioned seeing behaviourists from what i can remember. Until you're a mother yourself you don't really know what Nicole is feeling, or what to think, all you can think of is your child and the other children you take care of - the upmost importance is to them. But thank god PTS is no longer an option.

Again good luck nicole, keep us posted.


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## H0lly (Jan 31, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


I think that's a bit harsh ! You dont Know Nicole , her family or even Duke and his problems, Nicole Loves her animals and would not just decide , right he has bit he is going to be PTS, she does not treat her animals as disposables,Nicole is obviously in distress and very confused as to the right thing to do hense im guessing why she has posted on here. Nicole has come to her sense that putting him to sleep is prob not the best for him but to give him a second chance,

Nicole - Msg me ! I have a suggestion xx Hugs to you


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


How is this helpful. You have no opinion, you are just judgemental.

What ever the cause, nobody makes a decision like that lightly.

My dog was just generally shitty round kids, therefore he found a home where no one had them. He came with my OH and had issues that I never knew about, one being that my Ex used to wind him up and he used to escape by hiding with me. When we got his brother I wouldn't let my ex deal with him at all.

Pain affects humans differently, why not dogs?

It's a better idea to explore all avenues first, but when you are in the middle of it, the automatic reaction is to go for the PTS option.

Don't judge until you know the whole story and even then, helpful advice is whats needed.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!




Totally uncalled for 

What a vile response. I am absolutely stunned to read this. Do you not think this poor woman is going through HELL already in trying to decide what to do for the best? How dare you. I would like to let rip now with a few choice nasty words of my own, but I'll try not to stoop to your level.

To Nicole - I wish I had something helpful to say, but I have no-where near the experience or the knowledge to advise you so I will just offer my quiet support for you and whatever you decide to do. All the best xx


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


What an inconsiderate post!

I'm sure you'll find by reading the replies that Nicole has been offered advice regarding her situation & will make a decision based on what's best for her, her family & her dog.

I really don't know the true extant of what has happened here (I haven't really read past posts regarding behavioural concerns) but I think you'll find the OP is far from cold or heartless.

In some instances I believe it is better for a dog to be pts rather than be without a home for so long. Alot of dogs do not have the opportunity of having people to work them to help overcome issues so many resce centres are unable to offer this & neither will they take dogs who have shown even a hint of aggression.

Nicole - I aggree that maybe a nother visit to the vet may be required to discuss this & his meds but ultimately you need to make a decision that is best for yall of you. I really hope that there is a happy ending for you & Duke


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I wasn't going to post on this thread, But I do feel for Nichole having to make such a hard decision.

Then I read this and I got really really annoyed.



WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


WelishYorkieLover . You really are a nasty piece of work aren't you, I don't think this decision was made lightly, and your tone is evil.:mad5: :mad5: :mad5:


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


Bit harsh dont you think????  
I have been where Nicole is and although i never considered having my dog pts, i did get in touch with one of the larger breed rescues and was told they wouldnt help because my dog air snapped at the assesor!! (who was pretty useless imho)
So i can totally understand Nicole feeling helpless, but nasty replies like that dont help in any way!!!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Nicole i would get help with the rehome from an established rescue. Duke is a stunning dog and someone may very well view him through rose tinted glasses with a private re home.

A rescue can find the experienced home he needs with your help xx


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!


Wow what a response and not really very called for and definately not helping Nicole out at all.

I dont think nicole is being disgusting I think your response is pretty disgusting.

It is quite obvious this is a hugely testing and emotional time for Nicole right now and unless a close friend no one on this forum knows the full situation / circumstances.

Its posts / reactions like this which make people scared to ask for help!


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Oh and pts is NEVER the automatic thing to think for normal people! I have been in the same position and never once considered pts!! We took him to a shelter and he was rehomed! How is that not the automatic thing to think of first!?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> If she kills the dog she is cold and heartless! I stand by what I said!


But she isn't, she's currently seeking other options
Nicole, I can't imagine what you're going through right now & I know it's not a decision you have come to lightly, if finding Duke a child free home is what's needed then I wish you & him luck xx


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> If she kills the dog she is cold and heartless! I stand by what I said!


Very harsh and completely uncalled for in my opinion!

Your opinion is not helpful nor constructive and your judgemental attitude is disgusting.

Have you ever been in Nicole's situation???...I'm assuming not so until you have walked in someone else's shoes then you have no place criticising!


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ad_1980 said:


> No need for that love. Try being in her shoes and then you might actually understand why she was in such a position. but now she is rethinking things and thinking about rehoming him. So to call her disgusting and all that, is a but uncalled for because you don't know what the situation is. Nicole has already mentioned seeing behaviourists from what i can remember. Until you're a mother yourself you don't really know what Nicole is feeling, or what to think, all you can think of is your child and the other children you take care of - the upmost importance is to them. But thank god PTS is no longer an option.
> 
> Again good luck nicole, keep us posted.


I have been in the exact same situation and not once did we consider killing him!


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover - I think you should consider the quote - "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything."

I hate people who do not read the whole thread before the come in jumping their gums. If you managed to take the 5 minutes out of your day to read the thread you would know Nicole has decided not to go for putting Duke to sleep. You would also know there is a lot more to the story than "developed behaviour problems."


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Oh and pts is NEVER the automatic thing to think for normal people! I have been in the same position and never once considered pts!! We took him to a shelter and he was rehomed! How is that not the automatic thing to think of first!?


Oh, but I can assure you it is, especially if it is a 11 month old child cruising the furniture that gets chomped, to this day my son has a scar on his head.

You are just judgemental. I stand by what I said too.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> If she kills the dog she is cold and heartless! I stand by what I said!


TBH this is a pretty naive reaction under the circumstances.

A dog that has severe HD and is showing aggression will hardly have people queuing up to take it on. Expensive vet treatment not coverred by Insurance and the risk of the dog harming you, your family or a member of the public is the reality and then eventually PTS having been passed round a few more people who all think they can "save him".

I absolutely think Duke should be given a chance through a good rescue that understands the challenges the next owner will face but in some cases the honourable thing to do is to take that decision and then take the dog yourself to be PTS so as not to cause it further distress rather than pass the buck.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

LisaZonda said:


> Very harsh and completely uncalled for in my opinion!
> 
> Your opinion is not helpful nor constructive and your judgemental attitude is disgusting.
> 
> Have you ever been in Nicole's situation???...I'm assuming not so until you have walked in someone else's shoes then you have no place criticising!


FYI I have been in that situation! And again didn't consider killing my dog!


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> If she kills the dog she is cold and heartless! I stand by what I said!


Excuse me. She isnt' killing the dog. you need to really read her original post properly. Its not like she just killed the dog for crying out loud. She came here and expressed her feelings and thankfully she had the entire forum out to help and advise her what to do. If she was cold and heartless i imagine she would be like all those cold and heartless so called animal lovers who abandon their dogs, throw them in the sea, or worse stuff them in a bag and drown them - believe me there have been cases of people doing cruel things.

Nicole is far from cruel. You can tell from her posts how much she loves Duke, and writing her original post must be heartbreaking. So before being judgemental, i would ask you think about what you said. i hope to god you don't ever experience what she's going through, or in some ways actually i really do because then you'd understand how she is feeling.

So, grow up, stop being such a judgemental person with an attitude and learn to ask questions and dig into the story before jumping the gun with such offending posts.

Its people like you that make other people afraid to ask questions.


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

Gosh, i can honestly say i feel for you, as a childminder also i can not imagine what i would do if i found myself in the position you are in, and i pray that i never do.

I really dont know what it is like and what the thing to do is, but i think if i knew the dog was slightly unnerved really only by the comings and goings of so many children, then the possibility of rehoming to a home with no children is a good thing to do, and not uncommon.

If i believed it was more random than that and not down to a pain thing that can be rectified then i guess again the best option is an experienced home where there is the time and commitment to work through the issues. I do know of a chappie who has successfully rehabilitated an aggressive gsd with an amazing success.

PTS i would hope is the last option if the other options really dont fit your situation.

Hope and pray for the best outcome whatever it turns out to be for both you and Duke.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> TBH this is a pretty naive reaction under the circumstances.
> 
> A dog that has severe HD and is showing aggression will hardly have people queuing up to take it on. Expensive vet treatment not coverred by Insurance and the risk of the dog harming you, your family or a member of the public is the reality and then eventually PTS having been passed round a few more people who all think they can "save him".
> 
> I absolutely think Duke should be given a chance through a good rescue that understands the challenges the next owner will face but in some cases the honourable thing to do is to take that decision and then take the dog yourself to be PTS so as not to cause it further distress rather than pass the buck.


That's not honourable! And letting other people give duke a chance is not passing the buck!


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

OK, so what did you do to sort your dog out then.

Give advice seeing as you've been there. Not judgement.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> FYI I have been in that situation! And again didn't consider killing my dog!


Did your dog have severe HD and was more than likely in pain? Please as I said in my previous post politely shut up if you have nothing nice to say.


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> FYI I have been in that situation! And again didn't consider killing my dog!


So you know the whole story then?...you know all the facts on Nicole's situation, on every behavioural issue the dog has and also on his health issues?

And, you were in the exact same situation...wow!!


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ad_1980 said:


> Excuse me. She isnt' killing the dog. you need to really read her original post properly. Its not like she just killed the dog for crying out loud. She came here and expressed her feelings and thankfully she had the entire forum out to help and advise her what to do. If she was cold and heartless i imagine she would be like all those cold and heartless so called animal lovers who abandon their dogs, throw them in the sea, or worse stuff them in a bag and drown them - believe me there have been cases of people doing cruel things.
> 
> Nicole is far from cruel. You can tell from her posts how much she loves Duke, and writing her original post must be heartbreaking. So before being judgemental, i would ask you think about what you said. i hope to god you don't ever experience what she's going through, or in some ways actually i really do because then you'd understand how she is feeling.
> 
> ...


Again! I have been in that situation! How many more times do I have to say it!?


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> FYI I have been in that situation! And again didn't consider killing my dog!


How do you actually KNOW that your situation was *exactly *the same as Nicole's?

You don't.

So why not take 5 minutes off from being nasty, smug and downright vile and try and show a little empathy eh?

Failing that I would suggest you leave this thread because you are contributing nothing helpful to it at ALL


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Totally agree with Coffee! I can guarantee you were not in the "same" positon as Nicole. Every dog is different and has different issues. As Coffee said please leave this thread as you are not contributing with any advice.


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but then a certain comment hit a nerve and has actually upset me quite a bit.

Sadly I have been in this situation.
I had a collie cross who was mistreated as a puppy, I got him when he was 6 months old, he was aggressive to people (mainly men and children) and aggressive to dogs and we had behaviourists and at the time, money wasn't a problem, so we tried everything to help him.

He bit my mum's friend, my mum, myself and lastly my cousin. Two weeks before he bit my cousin we had been at the vets and she advised us that we have him PTS and before people criticise my vet, I trust her opinion and she would never put a healthy dog down unless she really felt she had to.

My mum was adamant that we she wouldn't have him PTS, but the day he bit my cousin, she realised we couldn't go on like this anymore, we couldn't have people round, we couldn't even move in our own home without fearing that Harvey was going to bite us. The day he bit my cousin, we had him PTS and my heart broke. I loved that dog to pieces and still talking about him brings me to tears. It wasn't a snap decision, it had been built up over time and it was the best thing for him.

Nicole, good luck in whatever you decide to do. Maybe someone will be able to help him, but you should do what you feel you need to, as you have said, rehoming him privately may be a good idea


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## tinamary (Aug 17, 2008)

Read the whole thread Welsh Yorkie Lover and then you will see what is happening.
I was shocked at first to see the post but when i read it through i could see she has changed her mind.
I do think she should give the person who offered to take it a chance though.


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Again! I have been in that situation! How many more times do I have to say it!?


Ok, tell Nicole how you sorted your dog then.

Saying you've been there, done that and bought the t shirt umpteen times and not saying how you dealt with it doesn't make your statement credible.

You are still judgemental


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Again! I have been in that situation! How many more times do I have to say it!?


now see i don't think you have really. Have you been in the EXACT situation? Really? Do you have kids? Did your dog have health issues?

But if what you're saying is true, then whatever. All i am concerned about is your first post being rather uncalled for. People are different you know. Many people react differently to a situation.

how is nicole being cruel? I don't see her pointing a gun at his head, do you? Does anyone else here? I don't think so. No she is simply thinking about everyone involved including Duke. i don't think she just decided "oh god my dog growled at my kids i'll just go to the vets and have him dead"

So just rethink how you reworded your first post, dig in deeper into Duke's history, and then maybe just maybe you'll understand Nicole and Duke a lot better


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!





WelshYorkieLover said:


> If she kills the dog she is cold and heartless! I stand by what I said!





WelshYorkieLover said:


> FYI I have been in that situation! And again didn't consider killing my dog!


At best just unhelpful but really silly judgemental comments.

Obviously you have experience of the situation and much better able to handle it so perhaps you could offer Duke a home? Do bear in mind he is a tad bigger than a Yorkie though but with your experience sure you can handle agression from a big dog too


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

NicoleW said:


> I'm so confused, he's just jumped up at me and scratched all my chest so his HD can't be that bad.
> 
> I agree with the breed and not accepting strangers. When we got duke I wasn't thinking about childminding then.
> 
> Going to sleep on it but I think privately rehoming might be the best option.


I would still see what your vet says about pain medication or a different one if he is on some already, Banjo used to go hell for leather & jump up at you but he was a grumpy git with other dogs  untill we found out what his problems were  he is much more sociable now even if he is a junkie


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

EmzieAngel said:


> I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but then a certain comment hit a nerve and has actually upset me quite a bit.
> 
> Sadly I have been in this situation.
> I had a collie cross who was mistreated as a puppy, I got him when he was 6 months old, he was aggressive to people (mainly men and children) and aggressive to dogs and we had behaviourists and at the time, money wasn't a problem, so we tried everything to help him.
> ...


I'm sorry but I am sure you made the right decision for everyone involved. Some dogs just can't be helped and for the safety of you, your family and other people, sometimes its best that the dog is PTS. Its never a nice decision but sometimes it has to be done.


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## H0lly (Jan 31, 2010)

Im far from a expert but having met Duke , had him in my home been out on walks with him i would say that get a second opinion from the vet, i would go as far to say that it has got to be his pain that is causing him to do this, Duke is a lovely Boy and has had a tough time, 

I know he is your baby Nicole but if the vet cant up his meds then i agree with you that private re homing might be best. 

I would love to be able to help more, You know where i am xx

Edit, or is it possible that he has changed since you had Bailey, How is he now with Bailey ? x


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ebonymagic said:


> OK, so what did you do to sort your dog out then.
> 
> Give advice seeing as you've been there. Not judgement.


We worked with a shelter and took their advice along with a family friend who has great expertise and 40 years plus experience when it comes to dog behaviour and last but not least we followed advice from a vet! We had him chemically castrated to see if that would make a difference, we tried all the tips and advice they gave us. This dog was a biter and had bitten my mothers face leaving a nasty gash in her cheek, he had bitten my brother and I and was trying to kill his own brother from the same litter who we had too! Eventually the shelter said to take him in and they'll work with him. He had a medical problem with his back from docking his tail too. They both did. We had told the breeder we didn't want their tails docked but she went ahead and did it anyway! We took Zack to the shelter and they worked with him. He was a lovely dog when there were no kids or dogs around and it took a couple of tries but he found a home in porthcawl with an elderly couple!


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> We worked with a shelter and took their advice along with a family friend who has great expertise and 40 years plus experience when it comes to dog behaviour and last but not least we followed advice from a vet! We had him chemically castrated to see if that would make a difference, we tried all the tips and advice they gave us. This dog was a biter and had bitten my mothers face leaving a nasty gash in her cheek, he had bitten my brother and I and was trying to kill his own brother from the same litter who we had too! Eventually the shelter said to take him in and they'll work with him. He had a medical problem with his back from docking his tail too. They both did. We had told the breeder we didn't want their tails docked but she went ahead and did it anyway! We took Zack to the shelter and they worked with him. He was a lovely dog when there were no kids or dogs around and it took a couple of tries but he found a home in porthcawl with an elderly couple!


And what breed was he?


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ad_1980 said:


> now see i don't think you have really. Have you been in the EXACT situation? Really? Do you have kids? Did your dog have health issues?
> 
> But if what you're saying is true, then whatever. All i am concerned about is your first post being rather uncalled for. People are different you know. Many people react differently to a situation.
> 
> ...


Kids - check!
Health issues - check!

Good enough for you!?


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> We worked with a shelter and took their advice along with a family friend who has great expertise and 40 years plus experience when it comes to dog behaviour and last but not least we followed advice from a vet! We had him chemically castrated to see if that would make a difference, we tried all the tips and advice they gave us. This dog was a biter and had bitten my mothers face leaving a nasty gash in her cheek, he had bitten my brother and I and was trying to kill his own brother from the same litter who we had too! Eventually the shelter said to take him in and they'll work with him. He had a medical problem with his back from docking his tail too. They both did. We had told the breeder we didn't want their tails docked but she went ahead and did it anyway! We took Zack to the shelter and they worked with him. He was a lovely dog when there were no kids or dogs around and it took a couple of tries but he found a home in porthcawl with an elderly couple!


I'm glad you have written you're experience down. Its another bit of helpful advice for Nicole. This is what she needs.

Thankyou for clearing that up.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> We worked with a shelter and took their advice along with a family friend who has great expertise and 40 years plus experience when it comes to dog behaviour and last but not least we followed advice from a vet! We had him chemically castrated to see if that would make a difference, we tried all the tips and advice they gave us. This dog was a biter and had bitten my mothers face leaving a nasty gash in her cheek, he had bitten my brother and I and was trying to kill his own brother from the same litter who we had too! Eventually the shelter said to take him in and they'll work with him. He had a medical problem with his back from docking his tail too. They both did. We had told the breeder we didn't want their tails docked but she went ahead and did it anyway! We took Zack to the shelter and they worked with him. He was a lovely dog when there were no kids or dogs around and it took a couple of tries but he found a home in porthcawl with an elderly couple!


But that was your dog, not Duke. You were also lucky to find a shelter that would take a dog with a bite history as alot won't.

Your dog was also lucky to find a home whereby this did not matter, many are not. There are thousands of healthy dogs with no medical or behavioural issues that are PTS every year as there aren't enough homes so PTS dogs is (imo) a kinder option at times.


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## LisaZonda (Oct 14, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> We worked with a shelter and took their advice along with a family friend who has great expertise and 40 years plus experience when it comes to dog behaviour and last but not least we followed advice from a vet! We had him chemically castrated to see if that would make a difference, we tried all the tips and advice they gave us. This dog was a biter and had bitten my mothers face leaving a nasty gash in her cheek, he had bitten my brother and I and was trying to kill his own brother from the same litter who we had too! Eventually the shelter said to take him in and they'll work with him. He had a medical problem with his back from docking his tail too. They both did. We had told the breeder we didn't want their tails docked but she went ahead and did it anyway! We took Zack to the shelter and they worked with him. He was a lovely dog when there were no kids or dogs around and it took a couple of tries but he found a home in porthcawl with an elderly couple!


So would it not have been more helpful to have posted the above in the first place?!

Nicole is clearly trying to work through some tough choices right now and obviously with any big decision you consider all options, she did come back and say she had decided against having Duke PTS anyway...maybe your experience would give her some hope and assistance.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> We worked with a shelter and took their advice along with a family friend who has great expertise and 40 years plus experience when it comes to dog behaviour and last but not least we followed advice from a vet! We had him chemically castrated to see if that would make a difference, we tried all the tips and advice they gave us. This dog was a biter and had bitten my mothers face leaving a nasty gash in her cheek, he had bitten my brother and I and was trying to kill his own brother from the same litter who we had too! Eventually the shelter said to take him in and they'll work with him. He had a medical problem with his back from docking his tail too. They both did. We had told the breeder we didn't want their tails docked but she went ahead and did it anyway! We took Zack to the shelter and they worked with him. He was a lovely dog when there were no kids or dogs around and it took a couple of tries but he found a home in porthcawl with an elderly couple!


now see THAT should have been your first post. Rather than calling someone hurtful things and be all judgemental about it, you could have just mentioned your experience and offered advice.

I think Nicole deserves an apology. I've noticed she's not really replied on this thread since and i can imagine why. She's probably in tears really offended about your post and is thinking all sorts of things now.

Please really learn to think before you speak. Delve in deeper into the situation before you offer a judgement. I don't really know fully the extent of Nicole's situation but I am not exactly going to go 'oh gee Nicole how horrible of you" I think for someone to write such a post must be rather lost and distraught. So please think about that before you judge someone.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Kids - check!
> Health issues - check!
> 
> Good enough for you!?


And there was no need for this...i wasn't being rude, i was merely asking a question.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> At best just unhelpful but really silly judgemental comments.
> 
> Obviously you have experience of the situation and much better able to handle it so perhaps you could offer Duke a home? Do bear in mind he is a tad bigger than a Yorkie though but with your experience sure you can handle agression from a big dog too


Wow you think you're clever don't you!? With my experience I should take the dog? That's a great idea you must be proud of that one! Did you come up with that all by yourself!? Clever girl!!


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ad_1980 said:


> And there was no need for this...i wasn't being rude, i was merely asking a question.


No you were being judgemental just like I'm being called! Hipicrital people much!?


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ebonymagic said:


> I'm glad you have written you're experience down. Its another bit of helpful advice for Nicole. This is what she needs.
> 
> Thankyou for clearing that up.


Thank you!


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Wow you think you're clever don't you!? With my experience I should take the dog? That's a great idea you must be proud of that one! Did you come up with that all by yourself!? Clever girl!!


fgs! get over yourself.
a lot worse can happen to a dog than being pts!!! sometimes it`s the kindest thing you can do!!
nicole , i wouldn`t suggest a private rehome , if you`re going to do anything and don`t want to have duke pts , consider contacting rescues in your area that will consider taking him , there he will be assessed on his own merits and matched against the right owners. feel awful for you and hope you come to a decision that is right for you all. xxx


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The way I see it is this:

Firstly the dogs medical condition has to be addressed. Any animal in pain will have grumpy, even very aggressive outbursts - just as we would when in pain.

Secondly any risk to a child has to be properly dealt with and it's an on going thing, if Duke should take out his aggression on a child, or any human in the future for that matter, he will certainly be PTS and it's a risk I personally wouldn't take, especially if I were a child minder!

Thirdly I can think of nothing better than a PF member taking on a dog who needs special attention. To be able to devote endless hours to a specific problem is priceless IMO. I brought my four children up around dogs and happy as they were and well cared for they did not get anywhere near the attention my guys get now that I don't have kids any more - how could they?

Fourthly if Nicole thought for even one second that Duke couldn't be trusted around people children especially a few hours ago, what has changed her opinion since then? Is it PF members giving her a bad conscience, because if it is that is not fair and is downright dangerous.

I don't believe Duke needs to be PTS but I also get the impression Nicole has enough on her plate and Duke's problems could be addressed better with a different home, one with more time and no distraction of children. His medical condition could also be more thoroughly dealt with.

It is obviously hard for Nicole but lets just pray nothing bad happens because she wouldn't let Duke go to another home! 

Just to add - I think Nicole would be hard pushed to find any rescue willing to take on a potentially aggressive dog with medical issues, especially as HD will worsen with age if not dealt with properly. The rescues have enough healthy, good tempered dogs they have to PTS on a daily basis, let alone take on another!


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ad_1980 said:


> now see THAT should have been your first post. Rather than calling someone hurtful things and be all judgemental about it, you could have just mentioned your experience and offered advice.
> 
> I think Nicole deserves an apology. I've noticed she's not really replied on this thread since and i can imagine why. She's probably in tears really offended about your post and is thinking all sorts of things now.
> 
> Please really learn to think before you speak. Delve in deeper into the situation before you offer a judgement. I don't really know fully the extent of Nicole's situation but I am not exactly going to go 'oh gee Nicole how horrible of you" I think for someone to write such a post must be rather lost and distraught. So please think about that before you judge someone.


Don't be horrible and kill the dog was my advice!


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> No you were being judgemental just like I'm being called! Hipicrital people much!?


Oh boy you really are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole, aren't you?

no i really wasn't. I have no time for people like you and i'm sure the rest of the forumers agree. We have all come to help nicole not offend her and other posters. So i refuse to response to your posts anymore and i ask other forumers to do the same for the sake of Nicole.

Nicole good luck and hope we hear better news


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## SarahPlzX (Nov 13, 2011)

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this Nicole . I dont really have any advice (or expeirence) that hasn't already been mentioned, but I'm hoping that something can be sorted for you, and for Duke.

Hoping for the best for you 
xxxx


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I must comment here as I have in the past kept a dog that would bite he was a Border Collie I lived on my own and he never ever went for me but and its a big but!! it was hard work I could not have done it and would not have if others especially children lived in the house as it only takes one mistake.My heart goes out to you as you must be feeling so upset.Suexxx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Havent read through all the replys so could be duplicating. When you say blood tests do you just mean hemotology and Biochemistry? If so, ask them to do a Thyroid function test. Its specific wont show up on a normal blood test. Hypo Thyroid can and does cause nervousness, anxiousness and aggression, both to other dogs and Humans. He needs a full thyroid function too sent to cambridge specialist labs or Idexx not a in house T4 Only. If they tell you its not possible Bullpoop, Hes Part husky and its in the breed and there is a hereditary version that makes an appearance before 3 years. 

Second thought have you still got the boxer and is he a boy? Have you had him neutered yet and what age is he? If a lot of this has co-incided with the Boxer getiing older and if a boy, and there is challenges and tension starting then it could even be from stress and re-directed on to you.

Dogs dont usually "change" suddenly and without reason.

ETA I have seen the difference in aggressive dogs pre and post medication for Thyroid and all problems have ceased. Also there was a lady with an Akita on here, attacked her way out of character (cant remember who now) Dog turned out to be Jypothyroid and again problems ceased and dogs fine again on thyroxine replacement


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Wow you think you're clever don't you!? With my experience I should take the dog? That's a great idea you must be proud of that one! Did you come up with that all by yourself!? Clever girl!!


And your vast experience of dealing with an aggressive dog is with WHAT BREED?? Notice you will not answer that one despite claiming your experience was identical


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Nicole has stated she is going to go back to their vet, and if nothing further can be done she will look into private re-homing. I think it is commendable that she has explained the problem, and is looking into other ways to help Duke before the last resort is needed.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Please guys, lets act our age and not our shoe size eh? Some of these posts are very immature and completely unhelpful. What's wrong with some folk on here????


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## H0lly (Jan 31, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Havent read through all the replys so could be duplicating. When you say blood tests do you just mean hemotology and Biochemistry? If so, ask them to do a Thyroid function test. Its specific wont show up on a normal blood test. Hypo Thyroid can and does cause nervousness, anviousness and aggression, both to other dogs and Human. He needs a full thyroid function too send to cambridge specialist labs or Idexx not a in house T4 Only. If they tell you its not possible Bullpoop, Hes Part husky and its in the breed and there is a hereditary version that makes an appearance before 3 years.
> 
> Second thought have you still got the boxer and is he a boy? Have you had him beutered yet and waht age is he? If a lot of this has co-incided with the Boxer getiing older and if a boy, and there is challenges and tension starting then it could even be from stress and re-directed on to you.
> 
> Dogs dont usually "change" suddenly and without reason.


She has still got Bailey yes he is male and is 8 ish months old and is entire. This is what i was thinking also.

Nicole please get in touch x


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

But my age and shoe size are almost the same... EU sizes are great 






I know.. doesn't help and off topic but if it brought a quick smile it was worth it.


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

Just out of curiosity, why does it matter what breed is involved in these kind of situations?

I know that there a a few breeds that suffer from hip problems, so therefore its more likely to be a pain issue, but what if the dog was a heinz 57 and had the same issue.

Please don't eat me I'm just curious, as you are all better informed on this issue than me.

Thanx


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Nicole, what ages are your dogs and what breeds hun xxx


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> And your vast experience of dealing with an aggressive dog is with WHAT BREED?? Notice you will not answer that one despite claiming your experience was identical


I would have answered if it had been asked. Zack was a yorkshire terrier. I didn't say I had a vast experience dear! You're just being cocky!!


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## Jackie99 (Mar 5, 2010)

I am not going to offer advice or opinions but I just hope Duke manages to find peace and if that is in a new, settled and peaceful home then I hope you manage to find it for him. Sounds like he has been through a lot in his young life. Must be a great deal of pressure for you all right now.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

ebonymagic said:


> Just out of curiosity, why does it matter what breed is involved in these kind of situations?
> 
> I know that there a a few breeds that suffer from hip problems, so therefore its more likely to be a pain issue, but what if the dog was a heinz 57 and had the same issue.
> 
> ...


Hmm that's what I was thinking!


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Don't be so disgusting Nicole!! How dare you KILL him! Take him to a shelter and they can work with him and assess his behaviour! He may then find a home where he is loved and respected!
> 
> Don't for one second you can come on here and say you're killing your dog because he has suddenly developed behaviour problems and find that you'll get support for that? What you thought we're all like you? We're not all cold & heartless!





WelshYorkieLover said:


> Oh and pts is NEVER the automatic thing to think for normal people! I have been in the same position and never once considered pts!! We took him to a shelter and he was rehomed! How is that not the automatic thing to think of first!?


That is ridiculous. The friend I have written about on here before had no real choice with PTS her GSD for biting her son - nothing medically wrong with the dog and behaviourist recommended rehome / PTS also. No one would take the dog as it had a severe bite history (child needed hospital treatment) and she didn't want to privately rehome with that history. The dog had belonged to her late husband who had died of a brain tumour and meant the world to her - sometimes the very 'worst' decision can be the best for a dog.

I am really, really shocked and revolted to be honest at your initial reply; has to be one of the most downright vicious responses I have ever seen on here.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Hmm that's what I was thinking!





ebonymagic said:


> Just out of curiosity, why does it matter what breed is involved in these kind of situations?
> 
> I know that there a a few breeds that suffer from hip problems, so therefore its more likely to be a pain issue, but what if the dog was a heinz 57 and had the same issue.
> 
> ...


I would imagine taking on a tiny yorkie that had shown aggression as opposed to a big guarding breed would be much less daunting and more manageable.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Dogless said:


> That is ridiculous. The friend I have written about on here before had no real choice with PTS her GSD for biting her son - nothing medically wrong with the dog and behaviourist recommended rehome / PTS also. No one would take the dog as it had a severe bite history (child needed hospital treatment) and she didn't want to privately rehome with that history. The dog had belonged to her late husband who had died of a brain tumour and meant the world to her - sometimes the very 'worst' decision can be the best for a dog.
> 
> I am really, really shocked and revolted to be honest at your initial reply; has to be one of the most downright vicious responses I have ever seen on here.


Here we go again...

She was talking about killing her dog! I'm not pandering to it like the rest of you and was very blunt about not killing the dog! You'd swear I'd told her to put the kids to sleep! Though that might be an option! ;0)


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Dogless said:


> I would imagine taking on a tiny yorkie that had shown aggression as opposed to a big guarding breed would be much less daunting and more manageable.


Try telling my mother that after he left a huge gash in her right cheek after only trying to protect him from a gsd in the street!


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Here we go again...
> 
> She was talking about killing her dog! I'm not pandering to it like the rest of you and was very blunt about not killing the dog! *You'd swear I'd told her to put the kids to sleep! Though that might be an option!* ;0)


not much of a comparison between a tiny yorkie and a german shepherd / husky cross though is there
and now your just being hurtful and pathetic.


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Try telling my mother that after he left a huge gash in her right cheek after only trying to protect him from a gsd in the street!


I'm sorry your mum got bitten and you found yourself in such a situation, but from your comment it sounds like Zack bit out of fear, from being scared by a GSD, rather than being naturally aggressive
xxx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

H0lly said:


> She has still got Bailey yes he is male and is 8 ish months old and is entire. This is what i was thinking also.
> 
> Nicole please get in touch x


Is a thought then, How are the two dogs getting on now. At 8mths the boxer will be getting sexually mature, and if entire the puppy licence will be out of date or coming up to it. Has there been any challenges developing between the two?
Doesnt need to be Duke challenging Bailey it could just as easy be the other way round the pups starting to sling his weight about a bit. If there is canine friction it can get re-directed and people can get caught in the fall out.

Also Nicole I didnt realise that Duke had a severe HD problem, if there are times he is in pain and severe discomfort with that as well I agree with others it certainly isnt going to help.

What did the Behaviourists you have had actually say in their opinion what the problem was/could be.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Here we go again...
> 
> She was talking about killing her dog! I'm not pandering to it like the rest of you and was very blunt about not killing the dog! You'd swear I'd told her to put the kids to sleep! Though that might be an option! ;0)





WelshYorkieLover said:


> Try telling my mother that after he left a huge gash in her right cheek after only trying to protect him from a gsd in the street!


I know she was talking about killing her dog; I am not stupid. I suggested a behavioural route first if you bothered to read anyone else's responses. But sometimes a behavioural route does not work either. I know of a few dogs who have been PTS for aggression - all large guarding breeds and all of them very much loved.

I am sorry your mum got bitten, but I still believe that a 3kg Yorkie with aggression issues would be far more manageable and less daunting than say a 45kg dog.


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## Georgee (Sep 10, 2011)

If this dog is a serious risk to children and all attempts to control behaviour have failed then pts would be a mature and unselfish act. To keep a dog regardless of how it behaves to humans is not moral or right. The quality of life the dog has must also be considered. I have dealt with the impact of dog bites in a professional capacity. The damage bites do to children are much more than skin deep. Nobody should judge someone for trying to protect children


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

Wow your attitude is disgusting!! I had my dog pts for killing 2 of my cats, she had cancer, kept having fits and then killed two of my cats, whats your response to that one??? Am i disgusting??

Nicole, i really feel for you, i am not going to be judgmental or give my opinion as you have plenty of that going on already, good luck xx


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## ebonymagic (Jun 18, 2010)

I was asking a general question because I was interested.

Size is obviously an issue, I wasn't even thinking about small breeds.

I personally have been chomped on my arm by a golden retriever who had misplaced its owner. It was going the wrong way and when I tried to get it to turn round it got really worried. its not easy driving when your tendons are sore.

It was my own fault for not thinking in dog terms, but I never told the old lady, whose dog it was.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

People come on here for support often I have done it myself,I really dont think some of the comments are helping Nicole and will just get the post closed.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

sketch said:


> I'm sorry your mum got bitten and you found yourself in such a situation, but from your comment it sounds like Zack bit out of fear, from being scared by a GSD, rather than being naturally aggressive
> xxx


No he was very aggressive! He would lie by the fire and if you dared to move close to the fire yourself he'd have you! And yes he was a yorkie but believe me they can do a lot of damage! The gsd was minding his own business on the other side of the road when Zack starting snarling at him! The gsd came over to see what all the fuss was about and Zack lunged at him. My mother picked him up and he tried to go through my mother to get at the dog and took a chunk out of her cheek. Inside and out!

The family friend dog expert and vet all agreed he was a very agressive dog! He was observed and when going to attack a dog most dogs go straight for the neck. Zack went straight for the back legs to bring them down first and then for the neck! Just like a tiger in the wild! And he was still only 10 months old when we had to give him up!!


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2012)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> No he was very aggressive! He would lie by the fire and if you dared to move close to the fire yourself he'd have you! And yes he was a yorkie but believe me they can do a lot of damage! The gsd was minding his own business on the other side of the road when Zack starting snarling at him! The gsd came over to see what all the fuss was about and Zack lunged at him. My mother picked him up and he tried to go through my mother to get at the dog and took a chunk out of her cheek. Inside and out!
> 
> The family friend dog expert and vet all agreed he was a very agressive dog! He was observed and when going to attack a dog most dogs go straight for the neck. Zack went straight for the back legs to bring them down first and then for the neck! Just like a tiger in the wild! And he was still only 10 months old when we had to give him up!!


you`re making a comparison between a large cross breed and a yorkie fgs!! how on earth do the two compare ????
if your dog was so aggressive as you put it all you did was PASS the problem on!!! which IS disgusting!!!!


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## Georgee (Sep 10, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> No he was very aggressive! He would lie by the fire and if you dared to move close to the fire yourself he'd have you! And yes he was a yorkie but believe me they can do a lot of damage! The gsd was minding his own business on the other side of the road when Zack starting snarling at him! The gsd came over to see what all the fuss was about and Zack lunged at him. My mother picked him up and he tried to go through my mother to get at the dog and took a chunk out of her cheek. Inside and out!
> 
> The family friend dog expert and vet all agreed he was a very agressive dog! He was observed and when going to attack a dog most dogs go straight for the neck. Zack went straight for the back legs to bring them down first and then for the neck! Just like a tiger in the wild! And he was still only 10 months old when we had to give him up!!


The responsible thing to do would to have this vicious dog pts. Who knows what damage he could have caused or did infact cause after your family gave him up. Dogs are supposed to be domesticated pets, human companions not aggressive dangers to the public!
Back to the OP please do not feel guilty whatever decision you make. your children and their well being are your priority.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> No he was very aggressive! He would lie by the fire and if you dared to move close to the fire yourself he'd have you! And yes he was a yorkie but believe me they can do a lot of damage! The gsd was minding his own business on the other side of the road when Zack starting snarling at him! The gsd came over to see what all the fuss was about and Zack lunged at him. My mother picked him up and he tried to go through my mother to get at the dog and took a chunk out of her cheek. Inside and out!
> 
> The family friend dog expert and vet all agreed he was a very agressive dog! He was observed and when going to attack a dog most dogs go straight for the neck. Zack went straight for the back legs to bring them down first and then for the neck! Just like a tiger in the wild! And he was still only 10 months old when we had to give him up!!


Sorry but a yorkie is STILL alot easier to control physically than a larger breed.

This isn't a competition regarding who has the most dangerous dog but more about what is best for everyone involved.

You say that your dog was rehomed - how do you know the new onwers didn't have problems? How do you know he wasn't passed on again or pts? But this post isn't about your dog it is about Duke & what is best for him.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

suewhite said:


> People come on here for support often I have done it myself,I really dont think some of the comments are helping Nicole and will just get the post closed.





WelshYorkieLover said:


> No he was very aggressive! He would lie by the fire and if you dared to move close to the fire yourself he'd have you! And yes he was a yorkie but believe me they can do a lot of damage! The gsd was minding his own business on the other side of the road when Zack starting snarling at him! The gsd came over to see what all the fuss was about and Zack lunged at him. My mother picked him up and he tried to go through my mother to get at the dog and took a chunk out of her cheek. Inside and out!
> 
> The family friend dog expert and vet all agreed he was a very agressive dog! He was observed and when going to attack a dog most dogs go straight for the neck. Zack went straight for the back legs to bring them down first and then for the neck! Just like a tiger in the wild! And he was still only 10 months old when we had to give him up!!


Then he should have been pts, he was a danger to people and to other dogs, your the kind of person that gives us dog owners bad reputations when you obviously have a dangerous dog yet YOU make the decision to inflict his aggression on other people, absolutely vile in my opinion.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

I'm afraid I agree with the OP: I would PTS _if _ she has tried everything. There are plenty of non-aggressive dogs in rescue and very few people will take on a dog of that nature.


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> No he was very aggressive! He would lie by the fire and if you dared to move close to the fire yourself he'd have you! And yes he was a yorkie but believe me they can do a lot of damage! The gsd was minding his own business on the other side of the road when Zack starting snarling at him! The gsd came over to see what all the fuss was about and Zack lunged at him. My mother picked him up and he tried to go through my mother to get at the dog and took a chunk out of her cheek. Inside and out!
> 
> The family friend dog expert and vet all agreed he was a very agressive dog! He was observed and when going to attack a dog most dogs go straight for the neck. Zack went straight for the back legs to bring them down first and then for the neck! Just like a tiger in the wild! And he was still only 10 months old when we had to give him up!!


Im think there was little doubt you loved Zack very much, but I personally feel your love clouded your judgement, If Zack was Thats aggressive, He would of been PTS.....Just my opinion
xxx


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Oh and pts is NEVER the automatic thing to think for normal people! I have been in the same position and never once considered pts!! We took him to a shelter and he was rehomed! How is that not the automatic thing to think of first!?


Your mum got her face bitten by an ankle-height dog? Maybe your mother shouldn't carry the Yorkie around at face height when she knows it's aggressive.

There isn't a single no-kill shelter in my area. When I had my DA/HA Doberman, I had no choice but to have him PTS. Had I decided to take him to a shelter, he'd have been put to sleep on arrival. I decided to have him PTS on my own accord, so that, if nothing else, he could be with me when he died.

Perhaps Nicole is in a similar situation. I'd never, EVER dream of giving an aggressive dog to a shelter. Once all other options are exhausted from home (behaviourists, calming drugs, trainers, willing/brave friends) there is no CHOICE but to have the dog PTS, because a shelter wouldn't even consider rehoming a dog with such persistent problems, and it's not practical for shelters to get all the best behaviourists and trainers in to maybe help this one dog, who will still never be trustworthy around things he reacted to in the passed.

A Yorkshire Terrier is a small breed which can be physically controlled by even the smallest of people. A German Shepherd mix is a strong breed which can stand on it's hind legs and reach your face without any effort at all. Aggression is aggression, no matter what the breed, but small dogs with this behaviour problem are much easier in every aspect than large dogs. Muzzle, lead, done. You can pick up a Yorkie to stop it from attacking people and other dogs. You can just move it out oif the way. You won't get knocked over or pulled down by a Yorkie.

If you think a 10 pound dog is as hard to physically control as a 80 pound dog, then you should stick to cats. :cornut:

An aggressive Yorkie will have a chance at being rehomed because it is PHYSICALLY possible to control a small breed dog. An aggressive German Shepherd won't even be considered, especially if the owner had done everything possible and still found no change.

THEREFORE, get your head out of your ass and show some sympathy and respect. Nobody cares for such foul comments in general topics. Your comments here are MUCH worse.


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

Nicole, I'm so sorry you're going through this.  Have faith in the fact you'll do what's right for you, Duke, your family and people around you in the end. I wish you all the luck I can muster in finding Duke a home. I'm pleased to see you aren't letting a shelter decide what to do. Duke will always be remembered by you, whether you take him to a shelter, a vet or find him anoterh home who will be able to provide what you did, with less scary things for him. >>Hugs<<


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## PinkEars (Jun 4, 2010)

I wasnt going to post but im starting to feel even more sorry for the OP. This thread has turned into a nightmare from someone making a statement which was obviously a very destressing conclusion to come to and now has disapeared it seems probably because its even more distressing reading this thread.

I dont need to name names, you know who you are but there is a way of saying things and you went about it all the wrong way. Have an opinion by all means but you dont need to be abusive.

Its all very well rehoming a dog that has been aggressive towards children and Nicole might be lucky and find a great home but its going to be very difficult and in the mean time whilst a home is found you are on edge all the time. Children and family do have to come first and yes if it was me i would be looking to rehome before PTS but that altermately may be the only route.

Nicole I hope you find a solution that you are comfortable with and quickly. I know its heartbreaking but in these situations you have to try and detatch emotionally and really think what is best for Duke and for your family. 

Keep us posted on what you decide to do and please dont listen to negative reactions just follow what is right in your heart. Be it PTS or rehome.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Nicol sorry for your trouble. 
I am sure you have thought very carefully about this.
I personally could not put a dog in a rescue who had bitten, because surely that is where he will stay. Will they even take him knowing he had already bitten. 

What ever you decide my thoughts are with you.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry but a yorkie is STILL alot easier to control physically than a larger breed.
> 
> This isn't a competition regarding who has the most dangerous dog but more about what is best for everyone involved.
> 
> You say that your dog was rehomed - how do you know the new onwers didn't have problems? How do you know he wasn't passed on again or pts? But this post isn't about your dog it is about Duke & what is best for him.


Well the reason we know is because we worked side by side with the shelter and we were in contact with the owners through the shelter! We are not the disgusting ones! We gave Zack a chance not just decided to kill him! We did not just pass the buck!

I wasn't trying to compete actually! Someone said that he didn't sound aggressive!

And you lot need to pick an angle and stick to it! You asked about my dog and experience and when I give it and you realise I'm not just talking through my arse it's not about me and my dog! Grow up!


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

PinkEars said:


> I wasnt going to post but im starting to feel even more sorry for the OP. This thread has turned into a nightmare from someone making a statement which was obviously a very destressing conclusion to come to and now has disapeared it seems probably because its even more distressing reading this thread.
> 
> I dont need to name names, you know who you are but there is a way of saying things and you went about it all the wrong way. Have an opinion by all means but you dont need to be abusive.
> 
> ...


Yes I do know who I am, do you!?


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## Doberma'am (Apr 18, 2010)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> Grow up!


Take your own advice, yeah? ...

I can't even begin to imagine how Nicole will feel when she reads your posts.

Nicole...Please take no notice of the harsh remarks. Don't upset yourself even more by reading them and taking them seriously. Do what you think is right and stand by that decision. Whatever you choose to do WILL be the right choice, and ignore the rude negative comments. xxx


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

WelshYorkieLover - I'm unsure why you are continuing posting? Nicole has said she is going back to her vets, and she will be giving Duke a second chance.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

There has been enough bickering on this topic :frown2:. I am closing the thread now.


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