# Cat Breeding.



## fairy74 (Aug 20, 2009)

This is purely a sounding out question..i do not want critisism or any s**t for this.
Ok forgive me if it comes out a bit messy.
As you know my cat has recently had kittens.
She is a pedigree and the kits were fathered by a mongrel(that word always sounds harsh as a cat is a cat to me).

Ok, originally i wanted to mate her with a pedigree persian.
And my question is as she is such a very good mummy would i be wrong to breed her now with a pedigree?
Would a breeder accept her as she has mated with a mongrel?
She is up to date with all vet checks.
Also i would want her to have a long rest before breeding again,so what is an acceptable time between kittening.

I adore my cat and will always do my best by her..this is not for money at all.
It is just something i have always wanted to do and i would appreciate all good advice before going in to this.
Please be kind with answers as i already know she shouldnt have mated with a mongrel if i had wanted to breed from her.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I can see no reason why not! 

She will need some tests just before going to stud in any case - just as you need to check the stud cat has had his.

I don't know what breed Coco is, but if she's not a Persian herself or an Exotic you might find stud owners unwilling to take her. She must be registered in your name, with pedigree and on the Active breeding register (GCCF - not sure about TICA). 

As she may not call again til the spring (that depends on the individual cat!) then looking at taking her to stud next March at the earliest, giving her a good long rest.

I'm sure others will be along soon to add more.


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## fairy74 (Aug 20, 2009)

She is a pedigree exotic shorhair but i dont have papers as the ladies mother had died and she sold her cheaper as she didnt have time to sort it out.
She is a breeder and still is, not sure what i should do there as she says she only sold as a pet and not to breed.

I know she is a reputable breeder but wont accept my cat to mate as she is now apparently damaged goods.

I hope this is not the end of the road for Cocoa and someone will accept her as she has had all health checks and vaccs.


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

its unlikely that someone will let you use their stud as she is not registered as an active. if she had been registered then it really would be a different story


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

fairy74 said:


> I know she is a reputable breeder but wont accept my cat to mate as she is now apparently damaged goods.


Oh dear... I think that may be her way of saying she was sold as a pet only and not for breeding! Your cat can't be damaged by having a moggy litter. The only way that could happen would be if she had picked up FeLV or possibly FIV (less likely) from her moggy husband.

Years ago there was a silly belief that if an animal had produced a 'mongrel' or cross-breed litter it would affect subsequent litters, so either this breeder is hopelessly old fashioned and known nothing about genetics, or she's using it as an excuse, I'm sad to say.

I don't know whether Exotics also need to be health checked for PKD these days or not, and/or blood-type tested?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but I'm afraid there's not much you can do 

If you really want to breed pedigree cats, then maybe the way forward would be to have Cocoa spayed and start over with another girl registered on the Active, from a good and conscientious breeder.


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## fairy74 (Aug 20, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Oh dear... I think that may be her way of saying she was sold as a pet only and not for breeding! Your cat can't be damaged by having a moggy litter. The only way that could happen would be if she had picked up FeLV or possibly FIV (less likely) from her moggy husband.
> 
> Years ago there was a silly belief that if an animal had produced a 'mongrel' or cross-breed litter it would affect subsequent litters, so either this breeder is hopelessly old fashioned and known nothing about genetics, or she's using it as an excuse, I'm sad to say.
> 
> ...


Thing is cocoas sister who my brother bought(without papers also) is with her now to be mated with one of her males as she is pure and unbred.
She wont accept mine.
He has to pay her £250 for the mating.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

fairy74 said:


> Thing is cocoas sister who my brother bought(without papers also) is with her now to be mated with one of her males as she is pure and unbred.She wont accept mine.He has to pay her £250 for the mating.


I'd put this down to experience and look around for another girl from a better breeder.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

In my opinion I would neuter her as she has no papers and so really it's not ideal as any decent stud owner will not accept a girl who is non on the active. Sorry.

If you want to do it right, as you say, then why not look for a good breeder who will sell you an active girl and who can advise you on what stud to use etc..


Ok, you will have to pay more for a new kitten on the active, you will have to pay for the snap test and stud fees but at least you will have gone about it the right way. And, your girl will be safe with a Stud Owner who don't take in non reg cats, that to me just spells trouble. Who knows what the stud could be carrying?!

And also, with persians/exotics is there not tests that need to be done to make sure they are not carrying a certain inherited disease?


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

thats very unusual but she may be worried that your cat has caught something that she would pass on to her stud however i doubt you would get your girl mated with any other breeder, as merlins mum said, if you are seriously thinking about breeding pedigrees then you would be best breeding from a new queen on the active register


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

If she's selling kittens without papers then taking them to her stud also without papers then she isn't a reputable breeder at all. For instance the owner of a GCCF stud can get in some sort of official trouble for accepting any non-active registered queens. If she's producing unregistered kittens and offering stud to unregistered queens she is essentially (please don't kill me, this is meant as no slight against you at all) a BYB. While I don't doubt Cocoa is a stunner of an exotic (she looks lovely in your icon!) if she has no papers she is technically not a pedigree.

If you'd like to breed pedigree persians I'm afraid I have to agree with Merlinsmum. Get your lovely Cocoa spayed and live out her days as a much loved pet and get another girl, registered active, and breed from her instead. It's the only way you'll be able to use a 'proper' stud and register the litter.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Kalipha said:


> If she's selling kittens without papers then taking them to her stud also without papers then she isn't a reputable breeder at all. For instance the owner of a GCCF stud can get in some sort of official trouble for accepting any non-active registered queens.


Unless there's been a new rule in the last 10 years or so then I'm not sure about that one. As long as the queen has had her snap test and any other health tests for her breed, then I believe it is down to the individual stud owner. New breeds and outcrosses would be in difficult waters with that kind of rule.... I know my last Siamese girl had a moggy only a few generations back, so one kind stud owner must have obliged there, and I am sure also insisted on all health tests & checks first.

TICA I know nothing about, and without papers are we even sure this lady's Exotic SH is GCCF?

I agree that this stud owner/breeder is probably not the most clued-up or friendly in the world. A stud fee of £250 for an unpapered queen is a bit much considering the girl could have only 1-2 kittens and they can't be sold at full price. As I recall, a fair stud fee would be around 2thirds the full sale price of a breeding quality kitten (but that could be different in some breeds).

There are many very nice, flexible, friendly and conscientious breeders out there (some are on here!). Not all are hypocritical or as money-orientated as this breeder appears to be, based on the information given.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Biawhiska and Merlinsmum are right. Exotics really should be blood typed and pkd tested before mating.

Most reputable Persian breeders wouldn't let you use their stud boys. And personally I'd feel uncomforatable taking a lovely girl like Cocoa to a breeder who is willing to take untested, unregistered queens. Plus that stud fee you quoted sounds quite high for an unregistered breeding. 

If you want to look into pedigree breeding with all the right health tests I'm sure lots of people on here and and your local cat club will be happy to advise you.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do xx


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

There is no GCCF rule that bars any stud owner from accepting unregistered queens. What we are not allowed to accept is queens on the non-active register. That is not the same thing as being unregistered. Several breeds got off the ground using unregistered cats as part of the breeding programme.

The bit about being damaged goods is garbage of course - quite why anyone thinks like this these days when so many people are divorced and have children with more than one partner is beyond me - do people imagine that if they divorced their husband and married again, the children from the second marriage would somehow be their first husband's children? As for any health concerns, you can do blood tests. But of course you can't force anyone to accept the girl for mating.

I take it there are no papers at all - no pedigree, no mating certificate? In that case the breeder has actually committed an offence according to the GCCF (and very probably the law) if she advertised the cat as a pedigree. But that probably won't help you very much.

Your options are 1. to spay this cat and start again 2. To try to find a stud owner who will accept an unregistered girl 3. To use an unregistered stud or 4. to try to obtain a boy yourself.

I take it you are wanting to breed exotics rather than, say, persians or British or mixed pedigrees?

Liz


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

lizward said:


> There is no GCCF rule that bars any stud owner from accepting unregistered queens. What we are not allowed to accept is queens on the non-active register.


Aha, buggeration - yes that's the rule I was thinking of, sorry for the false information!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Two things, many breeders will let a girl back to mate with their own studs. Often the stud is not at public stud but the breeder will let their own girls back to use one of their private stud cats, but not if they have been with a boy before, whether pedigree or moggie probably due to the risk of some sexually transmitted infection.
The other thing if your girl was sold as a pet then the breeder may not have felt she was good enough to be a breeding girl for some reason.

Exotic shorthairs can have PKD and it would be best to get her DNA tested for this if you haven't already done so. It is a genetic disease and if your girl has it then 1/2 of her offspring are at risk of having it too. 
Studies have shown that the incidence of PKD can be as high as 40% in Exotic Shorthairs

Polycystic kidney disease (PKD, or PCKD).

I think that perhaps it is a bit strong saying how unethical this breeder is. Her mother had died and selling kittens as pets unregistered is hardly the crime of the century in the circumstances. She may feel a bit guilty as regards your brother's cat and felt some sort of compensation was necessary so is letting him have a litter.
I am sure I have heard somewhere that letting unregistered girls into a stud is not against GCCF rules.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> She may feel a bit guilty as regards your brother's cat and felt some sort of compensation was necessary so is letting him have a litter.


 Then why does this not also apply to this lady's cat? The only possible sexually transmitted diseases would be FIV and/or FeLV. Both can be tested for, and any conscientious stud owner would want that anyway.


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## fairy74 (Aug 20, 2009)

Forgive me for my naiveness.

The story is the lady advertised persians and exotics online.
They were for £250.
My brother bought a female persian for his girlfriend at a cut price of £150 as she had no time for vaccs and papers.As her mother had passed away and was looking for a quick sale.

I was told she had one exotic (sister of my brothers cat)left.

I bought her as i fell in love and she was last left at 16 weeks old..had the 6 weeks insurance but that was it.

Cocoa fell preggers with a mongrel.
My brother called the lady to ask if he could mate his female she said she had only sold as pets but would take his for £250 for mating with her cream male persian(he mentioned about cocoa being pregnant and she said there would be no way she could therefore breed with her males now as she had mated with a mongrel).

His cat never had a sucsessful mating as she said his cat smelt of perfume which drove the male crazy.

I know i probably didnt go in to this the right way as it was my mum that picked her up for me (it was a last minute decision).

But i feel bad that she is making out my cat is now some dirty no good cat.
If it is in cocoas best interest i will spay her and maybe look in to breeding when i am more knowledgeable.
But i feel she is a great mum and i will feel sad to spay her.

By the way my brothers cat is there now trying for a 2nd succsesful mating.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Just wondered why you want to breed? 
Please dont call the cat she got pregnant by a mongrel! I hate that word!  
Im guessing she got out and mated witha moggie or you took her to a moggie? 

If the breeder didnt sell her with papers or contract saying you have to her her spayed by a certain time then I guess there isnt reason not to breed her, if she is fully health tested to her breed requirements, if she is a good example etc, but then she isnt reg'd so I guess none of that (bar health tests) really matters?

If you have her health tested & then contact breeders in your area and see if they will take he, alot do say yes as long as health tests are done and some say no.

also she could easily stil reg her for you on active, itll cost like £15? Unless there is a reason Why they arent reg and not just the mum died, but a brother & sister mating or something? which then gaain Im not sure you should be breeding her with that?

If it were me Id want todo it properly and start again with a health tested line due to the breed and reg'd girl, but then thats me


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

fairy74 said:


> Forgive me for my naiveness.
> 
> The story is the lady advertised persians and exotics online.
> They were for £250.
> ...


I guess people do strange things when a parent dies, but this lady broke all the rules and evidently since she is still breeding she is herself involved with the cats. For her now to turn round and criticise you for making a mistake is a bit hypocritical IMO. Still, there's not a lot you can do about that really.

However it sounds to me as if you might be able to get the papers if you offered to pay for them. All you would need would be the pedigree and a mating certificate to say that the sire mated with the dam on such and such a date, and confirmation that the sire has an entirety certificate (the GCCF office would probably tell you this if you had his registered name - or ask the lady to send you a copy). Then you would be able to register your girl yourself - on the active register. Then you could use any stud you wanted to. It might be worth a try - offer her £100 for the papers and see what she says.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> also she could easily stil reg her for you on active, itll cost like £15? Unless there is a reason Why they arent reg and not just the mum died, but a brother & sister mating or something?


Brother-sister matings are still allowed (but may not be for much longer). I agree though, there could well be another reason why the kittens were not registered. It's worth asking though. If someone offered me enough money to go hunting round for some papers I guess I'd make the effort.

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> Brother-sister matings are still allowed (but may not be for much longer). I agree though, there could well be another reason why the kittens were not registered. It's worth asking though. If someone offered me enough money to go hunting round for some papers I guess I'd make the effort.
> 
> Liz


I thought that they were allowed to mbe reg'd but some breeders might not bother/want to as its so close?

Dont see why not r.e. the paperwork unless she said pet only & contract must spay not breeding quality etc?


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## fairy74 (Aug 20, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> Just wondered why you want to breed?
> Please dont call the cat she got pregnant by a mongrel! I hate that word!
> Im guessing she got out and mated witha moggie or you took her to a moggie?
> 
> ...


I will ask her for the papers.
My brother asked why we didnt get them and she just said you knew that you wernt going to get any hence the reduced price.
But hopefully money will talk.

By the way i also hate the word mongrel as i said in my first post,i have two and all are loved..a cat is a cat no matter what.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Mongrel isn't a commonly used word applying to cats, it's not a term I have heard used until you used it in your first post.
Moggie is a common word.


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## kitties (Aug 1, 2009)

Good luck hun!! Was her first litter with a pedigree? Or have they both been with moggies?

For breeding, how many times can a cat be pregnant.

I;ve loved having kittens, and although Amber will be spayed when shes finished nursing, would definately look into breeding when my kids are grown up, im completely in love with ragdolls! ..... I have a worry though people say its not responsible to let moggies get pregnant and that we should get them done, because of health risks, but also because of all the cats in the cat shelters needing homes. Is breeding frowned upon as well?


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