# My fish are dying.



## ryanstedz (Jun 29, 2015)

I have a 70 liter planted tank. Been fine for 3/4 months. Fish in the tank are....2 dwarf gourami...2 bala sharks....3 cory catfish....1 zebra danio....2 mollys... iv added 1 pleco.... 4 swordtails....2 female betta. A day after. I found a sword tail dead and another gave birth. Later on that day my bala shark is swimming upside down can anyone help please. And now my betta as died this morning. Can any1 help?


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Where to start, there are so many issues here.

Many of those fish grow far too big for a 70 L tank.
Some are species that need much more swimming space.
Some need to be kept in greater numbers.
Some are incompatible with others.

But your biggest problem is that you have far, far too many fish for a 70 L tank.
I'm afraid unless the majority of them can be rehoused they will go on dying .


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## ryanstedz (Jun 29, 2015)

Iv Just gone on what the pet shop tell me is ok. 
What fish do you think I should re house as I just brought a new tank?
THANKYOU for getting back to me


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm afraid the advice from most aquarium shops is absolutely awful and you're _really_ not going to like my answer and you may even think I'm crazy after what the aquarium 'experts' in the shop have told you but here goes_: _

If your tank is the one in your avatar, a tall 70L rather than a long one, the only fish out of the ones you have been sold that would be even remotely suitable would be _just one_ of the two dwarf gaurami _or_ just one of the betta. You could then possibly keep the three Corydoras, although they are not ideal or you could add a small group of something tiny - but nothing else amongst the fish you currently have is at all suitable.

Gouramis are territorial. They can be kept as a male/female pair in a bigger tank but in a small tank the female is likely to be chased and bullied to death by the male. Two males will bully each other until the weaker dies. Two females will probably do the same.

Betta too are territorial - including the females. They will also bully until the weaker dies. And they are incompatible with Gouramis, as both species are too territorial.

Balla shark grow to 12 inches...

I don't know what type of Plec you have but you may well have a Common Plec - which also grows to 12 inches...

Swordtails can grow to 4 inches - so smaller, but still too big.

Zebra Danios need to be kept in groups and they are very active fish that need a long tank with lots of space. A solitary fish in a small tank will drive itself and all the other occupants insane.

Mollies grow to 3.5 inches but are very bulky and so still too big.

I don't know what type of Cory cats you have but they really need to be kept in larger groups and most types grow a bit too large to keep a proper group in a tall 70 L. There are one or two tiny ones that would be more be suitable but I suspect you have one of the bigger types.

And then there is the process of 'cycling' the tank before you add any fish - which I very much doubt the shop told you about either...

I could go on....

I don't know whether most people who work in aquarium shops have zero knowledge about the fish they are selling or whether they deliberately sell people the wrong fish so the fish will die and the customer will keep coming back but I fell into the same trap as you when I first started keeping fish.

You really do have to do your own research before you even purchase a tank.

I'm sorry you're in this situation and I wish these people could be prosecuted for cruelty... it was inevitable that the fish they sold you were going to die and the shop should have know that .


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## ryanstedz (Jun 29, 2015)

Yes the tank in the avatar. I don't know what to say now then. I was going to go the pet shop but is there any point. Didn't know if I could buy anything to help but dosent look like I can do anything. My new tank is 260l was only set up 2 days and shop told me water is perfect. The tank was 2nd had so maybe a few years old. Should I just put them all in there. Was hoping on taking my time with that but dosent look like I can.


I also have put my swordtail fry in my new tank due to fish attacking even though they in a net. Just don't know what to do.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I'm really hoping Naomi will come along - she's way more knowledgeable than me!

The 260L is _much_ better but really should be cycled first. A fish tank filter cleans the water by removing toxins produced by the fish. It is bacteria in the filter that do this. Cycling is a process of creating the right conditions for the bacteria to grow and allowing time for them to build up to sufficient levels to cope with the fish once they are added This process requires regular testing and takes weeks. Your new tank will have seemingly perfect levels on a test at the moment because there are no fish in it to produce the toxins that the shop is testing for! It also has no bacteria yet. Once fish are added the toxins will appear, there won't be sufficient bacteria to cope and then the shop will find toxins in your water - but it is too late then...

I would be inclined to leave the single Betta in the small tank and move all the others immediately into the large tank. It is not cycled but they will be much better off in there than where they are.

Your small tank will be full of ammonia (which is what is killing your fish) as there are far too many fish for the filter bacteria to cope. Do a _large_ water change in the small tank - using some water conditioner to make the tap water safe. The water change will reduce the ammonia level and with just one fish in there the filter will hopefully quickly catch up.

On the plus side, the filter in your small tank is probably already cycled and you can use this to kick start your big tank. Take some of the filter medium out of the small tank filter and put it in the big tank filter - this will seed the new filter with bacteria. Also take gravel, plants, ornaments - whatever you have in the small tank and put them in the large - these things will also all carry bacteria that will help speed up the cycle.

You need to purchase a water test kit - look for one that tests for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and start testing both tanks.

Do large daily water changes in the large tank. Test the water before each change for ammonia and nitrites. You should see a spike of ammonia (toxin) followed by a spike of nitrites (toxin) coupled with a fall in ammonia and eventually zero ammonia, zero nitrites and a low level of nitrates. This is the safe level you are aiming for. Once you reach this stage you can switch to weekly water changes.

Do the same with the small tank. As it should already be cycled and you will have reduced to just one fish it will hopefully not take too long.

If you can, get some more plants for the large tank - you can sometimes find quite large Java ferns for sale. Lots of plants will provide places for the fish to move out of sight of one another and reduce the issues you have with incompatibilities.

Your fish have already been terribly stressed and poisoned and are are now being moved into an uncycled tank so more losses are inevitable but doing this will give them the best possible chance of survival.

Once both tanks have fully cycled and you know what fish you have left you can look again at which of your fish are suitable to keep, which are compatible and stocking levels.


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## White (Jun 30, 2015)

I wouldn't be putting anything into the 260l as it wouldn't have done its first lot of cycle yet (this will refer the the bacteria development on sponges/ceramic media depending on what your filter uses) I would leave it for a week to 2 weeks minimum before adding any fish to the system and when you do add a small shoal of hardy fish I'd personally recommend something like cherry or golden barbs as I've found that these have done me well in the past,

I'd also look to add some form or aeration into the tank like an air stone of about 12 inches as this will help add oxygen into the tank by breaking the waters surface and will also help the filtration by increasing water movement.

Also before adding just any fish write up a list of the fish you like and take it to a shop that you know and trust to find out more about them, the main things you want to find out are: the size that it grows to, will it be compatible with the other fish that you want, is there any specific water requirement (I.e high or low pH), what its diet will consist of and what area of the tank will it swim in for example will it be a bottom feeder and spend most of its time at the bottom, will it swim in the mid section of your tank or will it spend its time nearer the surface as this will help your tank look fuller.

Another thing to bear in mind what decorations you want to add whether live or plastic if you are opting for live here's a useful link with lots of templates and tutorials by tropica www.tropica.com.

If you have any more questions or want me to talk you through your old tanks if you're looking to keep it running drop me a pm.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

White said:


> I wouldn't be putting anything into the 260l as it wouldn't have done its first lot of cycle yet (this will refer the the bacteria development on sponges/ceramic media depending on what your filter uses) I would leave it for a week to 2 weeks minimum before adding any fish to the system


The trouble is Ryanstedz already has numerous fish dying in a small tank. The new tank will probably take a lot longer than two weeks to cycle and anyway in two weeks they'll all be dead! Unless he/she has a friend with fully cycled tanks, space for numbers of new fish and compatible fish, moving to the new tank and large daily water changes to keep the ammonia levels down seems to be the only hope for these existing fish. Far from ideal, I agree, but their only hope.

The only alternative I can see would be to give up on them and leave them where they are to die and start again or try to give them back to the shop - who probably wont want sick fish and even if they take them they'll be sold again to some other unsuspecting customer with a small tank...


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## ryanstedz (Jun 29, 2015)

Before reading these last 3 posts. I took my fish and 2 warter samples to sedgley aquatics. They told me both tanks are fine little high with ph 7.6. But very low on salt.(didn't know u had to put salt in) so I brought 4 air stones for my big tank and 6 plants. Then just added salt to my small tank. I hope iv done the right thing after reading what you both put. They also said put nothing in ur new tank for 2 weeks but can't catch the fish now. Fry are getting attacked in the small tank. But they said they might be ok in big tank because not much waste.
Thankyou again


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi there and sorry you've been having these problems. It does sound like your shop has been giving you a load of bad advice! I'm inclined to agree with ameliajane that the best way forward is to move all but the betta into the new tank. If possible, move most (but not all) of the filter media from the old tank into the new filter too (add some new media to the old filter to fill up the space). The betta on its own won't produce huge amounts of waste, so leaving around 25% of the old cycled media for it should be sufficient.

Then get your own test kit (a liquid one such as the API master kit, not the paper strips) and test both tanks daily for ammonia and nitrite. Any time you get a reading of over 0.25 for either of these, do a 50% water change.

Don't know why the shop tested for pH and salt (hardness??) as these are not nearly as important as the readings for ammonia and nitrite. The different species of fish in your tank have different preferences for pH and hardness anyway - the mollies and swordtails prefer high pH and hardness, while most of the others prefer it low. What type of salt did you add? Aquarium salt can be beneficial to the mollies and swordtails, but some of your other fish won't like it at all! So personally I would do a water change to reduce the salt, and I wouldn't be taking any more advice from this shop!

Leaving your new tank to 'settle' for 2 weeks will do absolutely nothing, by the way. Doing a full fishless cycle with ammonia would set it up ready for full stocking, but this can take a couple of months, and since you have fish suffering in your old tank, I'd say you're better off taking ameliajane's advice and moving them over. Moving most of the filter media at the same time will greatly help. But you also need to get that test kit ASAP. Once you've got it and done the tests, post the results here for further advice!

Oh, a useful little product that can often help your fish, if you can get it, is called Seachem Prime. If you daily dose enough for the whole tank, it detoxifies the ammonia and nitrite which are likely poisoning your fish. It's also a highly concentrated dechlorinator, so you can use it instead of your usual dechlorinator when doing water changes, and it works out pretty economical as you only need to add very small amounts.

Hope this makes sense - I'm typing in a bit of a hurry as I have to leave for a GP appontment in a minute, but hopefully it's helpful.


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

The advice you've been given by the shop is, once again, appalling, makes no sense and will cause further suffering.

If your fish are to have any hope of survival you really do need to stop listening to these people and follow the advice you're being given here.


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## Quinzell (Mar 14, 2011)

You are quite likely to be seeing oxygen issues in your tank also, if you don't have sufficient surface agitation. As the temperatures rise, the oxygen levels will be depleted and so in an overstocked tank anyway, that's going to cause huge issues. If you haven't already, I would add an open ended airline until a more permanent solution is achieved.

I'm just about to pop out so did have to skim through this quite quickly, so apologies if this has already been discussed.


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## ryanstedz (Jun 29, 2015)

Sorry it was checked for everything. Ph and salt is the only thing they could see that could of killed the fish they said. Pets at home. Holly bush and sedges aquatics all said stress. Can you have to much water flow in a tank. As if I move them in my big tank it looks like water moving fast?


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

I find it impossible to believe that the ammonia and nitrite levels in that small tank with all those fish are both zero! Did the shop actually say these two levels were zero or did they just tell you the water was 'fine?' Was the shop that did the testing the same as the one that told you all these fish in that tank would be fine? If it was, they are not going to tell you now that the advice they gave was wrong - they would much prefer to send you off to play around with salt and worry about pH than admit they gave crap advice that is now killing your fish!

And when they say 'stress' is what is killing the fish, what exactly do they mean by this? It is a very vague term that could cover just about anything! I suspect what it really means is either 'I haven't a clue' (Pets at Home) or that they know that there are so many problems with this set up that they don't even know where to start and anyway _they_ are selling the same set ups with the same rubbish advice as you were given, so are hardly in a position to criticise!

As for testing your new tank - the levels in this tank _will _be perfect at the moment because the test kits test for toxins produced by the fish - as there are no fish in the new tank there will be no toxins! There is very little point in testing the water in a new tank that hasn't been started on the cycling process and has no fish in it. The fact that they are encouraging you to do this suggests they either know nothing at all about aquariums or they are simply doing as they are told. Either way I would not be asking them for _any_ further advice.

I've yet to find _any_ fish sellers that give anything like the correct advice. I'm sure most of the people who work in the specialist aquarium shops _do know_ and probably have their own beautiful aquariums at home but are instructed to give out the same useless, ''leave the tank to settle for a week, bring us a water sample, oh look it's fine - go choose your fish..'' sort of 'advice' because it's what customers want to hear. If they were to tell people that it was going to take weeks to cycle the tank, that they couldn't buy any fish until it was finished and that they couldn't have a _tenth_ of the fish they want, the customer would probably leave and buy from the shop down the road that tells them what they want to hear!

If you really want to keep fish, a test kit is crucial. And read Naomi's advice again on the type to get. They are not cheap but will save you trips to the fish store and you will know for yourself _exactly_ what the levels really are. And as Naomi has said, if you can then post the results on here people can advise you further.

As for the water flow in your new tank: depending on the type of filter it may be possible to turn it down if it really is too strong or to redirect the outflow. Looking at the picture you posted of your new tank it looks as though the filter is not fixed to the wall of the tank. If it is free standing it would be worth raising it higher so that you get more agitation on the surface (this increases the water surface and helps oxygenate the water) and less of a blast through the main body of the tank and try turning the outflow to try to create an area at the surface where the flow is gentler. The fact is that some of your current fish will enjoy a fast flow and some wont. For example: Zebra Danios love fast flowing water whilst Dwarf Gouramis need a much gentler flow. Having said this, I would be inclined to just move the fish across and see how they cope and make adjustments. In such a large tank you will always have areas that are less affected by the flow than others, to some degree the fish will find the areas that suit them best, although compatibility in this area is one of the things to consider when choosing fish and equipment in the future.

How are your remaining fish doing?


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## ryanstedz (Jun 29, 2015)

I was about change the fish over today when I noticed my new swordtail is attacking everything. The problems iv been having all started since this swordtail was put in the tank. This morning I lost my 2nd betta. This evening I lost my 2nd silver shark. Could the sword tail be the problem. Hy friend has tanked the male swordtail away in his tank


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

An aggressive fish will add to the problems but the main problem is that _there are far too many fish in the tank_. There won't be enough oxygen and the filter can't cope. And they've now had salt added to their water which is also probably contributing to their suffering. And it's not at all surprising some of the fish are becoming aggressive. They are not compatible and they do not have enough room. Life in that tank must be absolute hell for those poor fish.

The advice remains the same - _move the fish into the large tank_. Of the remaining fish the only one I would leave in the small tank now is one of the Dwarf Gourami.

The fish need to be moved into the large tank immediately.
There is no other advice we can give if you are not going to do this.
Your fish will continue to die one by one unless you move them out of that tank.


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## ryanstedz (Jun 29, 2015)

They have been moved over now


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## ameliajane (Mar 26, 2011)

Thank goodness and well done! 
As the fish will have already suffered damage from being in the small tank you will probably still suffer further loses but by moving them you are giving them the best possible chance of survival.

Don't forget to move a large portion of the filter medium from the small tank into the filter for the large tank (read through Naomi's post again) this will seed the new filter with the bacteria you need and speed up the cycling process. And leave one fish (one of the Gourami would probably be best) in the small tank to keep that tank's filter working. With no fish at all in the small tank the filter bacteria will eventually starve and die, even if the filter is left running, then if you wanted to use that tank again you'd have to start the cycling process all over again. And do a large water change in the small tank to get rid of some of the toxins and the salt. Do it again in a couple of days. Don't forget to use the dechlorinator.

If you can afford it, a decent test kit will of enormous help now to test both tanks. It really is an essential piece of kit, especially when setting up a new tank. You will be able to check that the small tank is functioning as it should and is safe for fish and you will be able to monitor the cycling process your new tank will now be beginning to go through and will know when to do water changes to protect your fish from the toxins they will inevitably be exposed to until the cycling process is complete. This may take several weeks. You only really need to test for ammonia and nitrites, don't worry at this stage about anything else. Again, Naomi has already explained what type of kit to get, what levels to look for and what to do. Until you can get a test kit it would be worth doing daily water changes in the big tank.

And do keep us posted on how things are going.


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