# Can anyone recommend a good dog behaviourist in East London?



## MayaB (Nov 9, 2011)

Hi,

My otherwise lovely Chow Chow has started disobeying me on his walks recently- when distracted or when he does not want to go in the direction we are heading to he lies down flat on the pavement and refuses to move. He weighs 30kg so it is impossible for me to move him.

Thanks in advance,
Maya


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

My choices would be Ross McCarthy (London Dog Behaviour Centre) or Steve Mann (Alpha Dog Training School)


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Good choices above. Have you tried simply bringing some nice food along with you on walks, and working on a command like 'This way!' or 'Let's go'? Change up the routine a lot of reward for the tiniest inclination to follow. You may not need to have a behaviourist for it


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Chirag Patel

Welcome


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I can`t help feeling a good training book might suffice. 
How about The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

MayaB said:


> Hi,
> 
> My otherwise lovely Chow Chow has started disobeying me on his walks recently- when distracted or when he does not want to go in the direction we are heading to he lies down flat on the pavement and refuses to move. He weighs 30kg so it is impossible for me to move him.
> 
> ...


let him go a couple of days without food. When he lies down and refuses to move, wave a piece of lovely, smelly chicken in front of his nose. He'll follow you then.  You might also see an attitude change as well


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

grandad said:


> let him go a couple of days without food. When he lies down and refuses to move, wave a piece of lovely, smelly chicken in front of his nose. He'll follow you then.  You might also see an attitude change as well


Let him go a couple of days without food?  Sorry, but I whole-heartedly disagree with starving a dog to train.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Let him go a couple of days without food?  Sorry, but I whole-heartedly disagree with starving a dog to train.


A dog can go a lot longer than a couple of meals and it's only the once. Not forever.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

grandad said:


> A dog can go a lot longer than a couple of meals and it's only the once. Not forever.


Well, so can we, but I still don't think it's right to do so in aid of training. Principally because it has little to do with training and learning anymore, IMO, and more to do with pushing a dog to a point where they have to make the decision you want. Training should be fun and rewarding, I don't think making a dog exceptionally hungry so much that they have to do something we want is taking care of their welfare and well-being.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogs will not "starve" if not fed for a couple of days.

I prefer to use the term "fast" as it is more appropriate and of course fasting can be very therapeutic. 

I do not know of any dog that would be "exceptionally hungry" after a couple of days without food and I do not know of any that would actually REFUSE food for that long. 

Not ALL training is fun, there are some things that are not "fun" at all but are necessary.

So, training a dog to leap through hoops of burning fire is not necessary and if a dog did not do that freely I would not bother, nobody will die if it does not do it.

Training a dog not to go out of the front door or car before it is safe to do so *is *potentially life saving, so I do not care if this training is "fun" or not. It is not a request.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Well, so can we, but I still don't think it's right to do so in aid of training. Principally because it has little to do with training and learning anymore, IMO, and more to do with pushing a dog to a point where they have to make the decision you want. Training should be fun and rewarding, I don't think making a dog exceptionally hungry so much that they have to do something we want is taking care of their welfare and well-being.


How would you approach the OP's issue then?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Dogs will not "starve" if not fed for a couple of days.
> 
> I prefer to use the term "fast" as it is more appropriate and of course fasting can be very therapeutic.
> 
> ...


Without hi-jacking the OP's thread, training involves two Smokey Bear. Whilst you might not find some aspects of training fun, I think it's very important for the dog to find it fun and immensely rewarding all the time. Immensely rewarding activities are much more likely to be repeated in the future.

And I still don't think it's right to take a dog off a normal daily feeding routine just to get good training results. I'm all for training around meal times, or even a little after, but not withholding food for a couple of days. Never needed to do it, never will.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

grandad said:


> How would you approach the OP's issue then?


I wrote in my first post


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## Linden_Tree (Jan 6, 2011)

Has the dog had a medical examination?

That would be my first port of call - to rule out any physical issues. I believe Chows can suffer joint issues.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I wrote in my first post


BYP. That could work to. If it doesn't?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Without hi-jacking the OP's thread, training involves two Smokey Bear. Whilst you might not find some aspects of training fun, I think it's very important for the dog to find it fun and immensely rewarding all the time. Immensely rewarding activities are much more likely to be repeated in the future.
> 
> *Yes I realise that and I disagree  not ALL training for ALL things with ALL dogs will necessarily be fun, this is a fact of life; there are some things that are just non negotiable and cannot be trained with just FUN.
> 
> ...


I am thrilled that you have never had to do that, you may have not met some very recalcitrant dogs, lucky you.

Some of us have.

As one renowned clicker trainer expounded:

_There is a world of difference between "a consequence to a behavior in which something is added to or removed from the situation to make the behavior less likely to occur in the future" and "suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution."_

But you may of course disagree.

ETA

_Extinction and negative punishment are both used by clicker trainers, and BOTH are aversive. Extinction is every bit as aversive as punishment, sometimes even more so. So even trainers who try to avoid negative punishment still have an aversive element to their training if they're using extinction. All aversives are not created equal. Some are mild and some are severe. Whether the aversive is due to something being added, something being removed, or something just not paying off does not determine the severity of the consequence.

No one trains by positive reinforcement alone. No one always, in all their dealings with a dog, avoids all possible aversive experiences. _


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> I am thrilled that you have never had to do that, you may have not met some very recalcitrant dogs, lucky you.
> 
> Some of us have.
> 
> ...


I think one of the best training approaches I have learned is to make everything as fun as possible. Making games out of behaviours we want to teach and shaping behaviours. Of course, negative punishment is not desired by the dog, if it was or neutral then it wouldn't be a punishment. But I think withholding food for a couple of days/meals makes training less fun for the dog, more necessity to eat. And I know that it would make training a lot less fun for me.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I think one of the best training approaches I have learned is to make everything as fun as possible. Making games out of behaviours we want to teach and shaping behaviours. Of course, negative punishment is not desired by the dog, if it was or neutral then it wouldn't be a punishment. But I think withholding food for a couple of days/meals makes training less fun for the dog, more necessity to eat. And I know that it would make training a lot less fun for me.


And in principle I agree however there are some challenging cases out there where I am afraid the fun fun fun approach would get you nowhere.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

grandad said:


> BYP. That could work to. If it doesn't?


Teach "Heel", teach a hand target "Touch" command, teach the dog to retrieve a tennis ball or play with a tug toy, desensitise them to areas where they don't want to go, take it step by step and free-shape the behaviour through something like clicker training...the list is huge for ways in which this problem could be worked on in my opinion. My first choice would be bringing some nice food along and trying to shape the behaviour, then incorporate a "Touch" command into it. A huge reward like playing with a tug toy or playing fetch can be given at the end. I often like to teach a "Follow" command with a "Touch" so that the dog runs along behind me and catches up. This is a fun game for them as it involves chasing.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Teach "Heel", teach a hand target "Touch" command, teach the dog to retrieve a tennis ball or play with a tug toy, desensitise them to areas where they don't want to go, take it step by step and free-shape the behaviour through something like clicker training...the list is huge for ways in which this problem could be worked on in my opinion. My first choice would be bringing some nice food along and trying to shape the behaviour, then incorporate a "Touch" command into it. A huge reward like playing with a tug toy or playing fetch can be given at the end. I often like to teach a "Follow" command with a "Touch" so that the dog runs along behind me and catches up. This is a fun game for them as it involves chasing.


HAve you ever TRAINED a Chow Chow?

Have you read what JD says about hers?


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> And in principle I agree however there are some challenging cases out there where I am afraid the fun fun fun approach would get you nowhere.


Fair enough, we agree to disagree. Challenging cases are made even more challenging by people wanting quick fixes, and thus not opting for the fun approaches to training, but using more force and coercion to get an end result. IMO, they lack patience. But I rather take things really slow and train using rewards to build up to a behaviour whenever possible. Any punishment is just suppression of a behaviour; the real learning of a substitute behaviour comes from being rewarded for another behaviour.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> HAve you ever TRAINED a Chow Chow?
> 
> Have you read what JD says about hers?


Done better, trained a Chow Chow cross Akita  I don't like to throw breeds into cognitive categories based purely on their genetic makeup. Whilst breeds may have stereotypical motor patterns, their behaviour is always a result of the interaction between genes and the environment, even hardwired behaviour. Ergo, I like to think of dogs as individuals when it comes to what they are capable of learning.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

I am enthralled now. I hope the OP gives us a full report when the situation is resolved.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> I often like to teach a "Follow" command with a "Touch" so that the dog runs along behind me and catches up. This is a fun game for them as it involves chasing.


Which is precisely what my youngster did today ...... embarrassingly it was with a 6yr old child who's running away became the rewarding chase game. Parent of said child was suitably understanding and lessons learnt all round, especially the child who was advised NOT to run if a dog was heading towards them.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Which is precisely what my youngster did today ...... embarrassingly it was with a 6yr old child who's running away became the rewarding chase game. Parent of said child was suitably understanding and lessons learnt all round, especially the child who was advised NOT to run if a dog was heading towards them.


I teach a "Follow" with my hand out to the side, often knees bent, and not moving at very quick speeds. I also teach the actual command "Follow". It's under stimulus control, it has a number of discriminative cues. I assure you it's very safe.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Fair enough, we agree to disagree. Challenging cases are made even more challenging by people wanting quick fixes, and thus not opting for the fun approaches to training, but using more force and coercion to get an end result. IMO, they lack patience. But I rather take things really slow and train using rewards to build up to a behaviour whenever possible. Any punishment is just suppression of a behaviour; the real learning of a substitute behaviour comes from being rewarded for another behaviour.


Nothing to do with quick fixes but managing dangerous behaviour. 

Nothing to do with force or coercion either  This is exactly what I see time and time again by those who believe in "purely positive training" but there is no such thing. 

Nothing to do with lack of patience either 

It is terrible that people who use operant conditioning are "suppressing behaviours" isn't it by using negative punishment. Shocking. They should all be reported at once to (insert relevant authority).

Real learning comes about by correctly identifying what the DOG perceives as a reinforcer and a punisher, not the trainer!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Done better, trained a Chow Chow cross Akita  I don't like to throw breeds into cognitive categories based purely on their genetic makeup. Whilst breeds may have stereotypical motor patterns, their behaviour is always a result of the interaction between genes and the environment, even hardwired behaviour. Ergo, I like to think of dogs as individuals when it comes to what they are capable of learning.


Oh dear oh dear, I am not sure why training a Chow Chow x Akita is "better" than training a Chow Chow? 

As for "throwing breeds into cognitive categories" that would be pointless, however ignoring their genetic make up is equally pointless.

Presumably you believe therefore that you could train a gundog to be an excellent sheepdog and compete in Sheepdog trials?

Or train a Bloodhound to be an effective protection dog (if only you could find the "right" individual? 

What a scream! 

Dogs ARE individuals in what they are capable of learning, but genotype will define their potential in different fields.

Unless of course you know different!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Nothing to do with quick fixes but managing dangerous behaviour.
> 
> Nothing to do with force or coercion either  This is exactly what I see time and time again by those who believe in "purely positive training" but there is no such thing.
> 
> ...


Note SB, only *you* have brought up the construct of 'purely positive' training. I have never said, and would never say, that I am (or anyone else is) a purely positive trainer. But I do acknowledge that I get much better results by training using operant methods such as free-shaping and capturing, in which punishment is rarely used.

Likewise, I have never said that there is anything wrong with suppression, other than I think the best training results come about from setting the dog up for success and rewarding behaviours that are more desired. Punishments may be part and parcel of training and learning, but teaching a dog what is most rewarding to them, or different ways of accessing internally rewarding events, is the most effective strategy for teaching. And that goes for any organism.

Your final comment about the dog choosing their own motivations is completely correct, and I never said any differently.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

This is all very well. and the OP will choose a way of getting the dog to stop doing what it is doing. I'm 14.5 stone (all muscle) and wouldn't fancy pulling a dog of 30kgs along the road or even trying to get it to move. 
I would try various methods. but will be really interested to see which one, of the ones on offer "worked" IF AT ALL.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Oh dear oh dear, I am not sure why training a Chow Chow x Akita is "better" than training a Chow Chow?


If you didn't realise, my comment was tongue in cheek. Akitas are often referred to as stubborn, 'dominant', aloof etc., etc. The Akita X Chow was a trainer's dream.



> As for "throwing breeds into cognitive categories" that would be pointless, however ignoring their genetic make up is equally pointless.
> 
> Presumably you believe therefore that you could train a gundog to be an excellent sheepdog and compete in Sheepdog trials?
> 
> ...


:mad2: Again, you haven't read what I wrote properly. I could train a bloodhound to be a protection dog, or a gundog to be a sheepdog, but would they be the _best_ in their categories? Of course not! Behaviour is above the genes- it has to do with epigenesis. So is physical conformation, and physical conformation has a direct hold on behavioural conformation. Genotype defines their behaviour potential only if given the suitable environment to do so. We can shape many dog's behaviour if we control their experiences from birth, whether certain things are hardwired or not. However, this is such a complex process, that it is unrealistic to assume we know all there is about the heterchronous patterns across different breeds of dog.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Why are we turning this into a scrap. Put your ego's back in your pocket. We've answered the Op question. Now let them get on with it. 
If one way works for her and the dog starts to behave then GREAT. A method (which ever one) has achieved the result. 
Happy owner and happy dog. 

Does eveything have to be so complicated with all these scientific theories blah blah. Sometimes the simple stuff works toooooooooooooo.

KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

grandad said:


> Why are we turning this into a scrap. Put your ego's back in your pocket. We've answered the Op question. Now let them get on with it.
> If one way works for her and the dog starts to behave then GREAT. A method (which ever one) has achieved the result.
> Happy owner and happy dog.
> 
> ...


Well done Grandad, you have succeeded in taking the higher ground by subtly undercutting what we (I?) have said throughout this thread. I think it's great that you are moderating this scrap and all, I really do, and if you look through I have offered lots of advice to the OP. And all of it is quite simple, too. Scientific theories come into play when people challenge them


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

grandad said:


> . Sometimes the simple stuff works toooooooooooooo.
> 
> KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.


Exactly right! 

So back to starving, oooops, fasting the dog!


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Well done Grandad, you have succeeded in taking the higher ground by subtly undercutting what we (I?) have said throughout this thread. I think it's great that you are moderating this scrap and all, I really do, and if you look through I have offered lots of advice to the OP. And all of it is quite simple, too. Scientific theories come into play when people challenge them


So wrong. have a look at the replies again.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Can I ask what you do next? So you fast the dog for two days, then take him out for a walk, like a donkey following a carrot on a string? What happens on day three? The dog is no longer hungry, so he's back to lying down? What next?

I would also have a vet check, just in case. 

A good behaviourist would want a vet check and referral anyway I think.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Elles said:


> Can I ask what you do next? So you fast the dog for two days, then take him out for a walk, like a donkey following a carrot on a string? What happens on day three? The dog is no longer hungry, so he's back to lying down? What next?
> 
> I would also have a vet check, just in case.
> 
> A good behaviourist would want a vet check and referral anyway I think.


Hopefully it will break the habit. You then have the smelly chicken everyday, just in case and entice if it happens again.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Elles said:


> Can I ask what you do next? So you fast the dog for two days, then take him out for a walk, like a donkey following a carrot on a string? What happens on day three? The dog is no longer hungry, so he's back to lying down? What next?


One assumes the dog has figured out he only gets food if he follows you - back to the one and only basic of NILF, everything in life is earnt as a reward for the correct behaviour. If he hasn't 'earnt' enough in the previous few days he sure will be by now wanting to 'earn' the lot, if he's earnt the lot and not interested he won't be getting anything until the next session/walk ... the penny no doubt at some point will drop.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Made me think tbh. 

I don't think there's a problem with a dog missing a couple of meals and having to work for his food, but, it's not how I would want to train my own dog, so I'd have to think of something else. Motivation is a difficult one and NILIF is not necessarily the way I'd want to motivate my animals, if I can avoid it. 

It also made me think of when dogs seem to be fussy and won't eat. I thought there's nothing wrong with offering a meal, then if they don't eat it, taking it away and offering the same thing later, until eventually they give up and eat it.

Then I started feeding raw. My dog never refuses a meal, if it's too much for her, she hides it and eats it later. She has a real appetite for her raw dinners. So now I wonder if some dogs just can't cope with any more 'pringles and smarties' meals and that's why they're not eating. They know what's good for them and they're saturated with fast food. They'd rather have a real dinner thanks.

The thread just made me think.


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## MayaB (Nov 9, 2011)

Thank you all very much for your advice! I will contact the dog behaviourists you recommended and even try to read up on how to train the dog properly. As much as I like to put the blame on Max, it is my lack of authority and lack of direction that has enabled him to challenge me and get away with it. He is otherwise very loving and sweet so harsh punishment would be a very difficult thing for me to administer. I am hoping to learn from the trainer as much as my dog does as without consistency it is pointless trying to teach him to behave. Thank you all once again.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

MayaB said:


> Thank you all very much for your advice! I will contact the dog behaviourists you recommended and even try to read up on how to train the dog properly. As much as I like to put the blame on Max, it is my lack of authority and lack of direction that has enabled him to challenge me and get away with it. He is otherwise very loving and sweet so harsh punishment would be a very difficult thing for me to administer. I am hoping to learn from the trainer as much as my dog does as without consistency it is pointless trying to teach him to behave. Thank you all once again.


Rest assured, this isn't a problem with your lack of authority, and he isn't trying to challenge your authority. He's performing this behaviour simply because it is motivating to him, i.e. he wants the reward of going in a particular direction. Trying to get him going in another direction is not as rewarding to him. Through training, you can motivate him to stick by your side and follow you, as he'll learn that this is also rewarding to him. The idea of him challenging you would imply that he knows what you want, and is purposively asserting his own choice over yours. This assumes that dogs can and do think like this, but in actuality, they most probably do not.

Look for a good behaviourist, who will get you involved in new positive training exercises and games, and don't blame how you have acted so much


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

MayaB said:


> Thank you all very much for your advice! I will contact the dog behaviourists you recommended and even try to read up on how to train the dog properly. As much as I like to put the blame on Max, it is my lack of authority and lack of direction that has enabled him to challenge me and get away with it. He is otherwise very loving and sweet so harsh punishment would be a very difficult thing for me to administer. I am hoping to learn from the trainer as much as my dog does as without consistency it is pointless trying to teach him to behave. Thank you all once again.


Please let us know how you get on


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Fair enough, we agree to disagree. Challenging cases are made even more challenging by people wanting quick fixes, and thus not opting for the fun approaches to training, but using more force and coercion to get an end result. IMO, they lack patience. But I rather take things really slow and train using rewards to build up to a behaviour whenever possible. Any punishment is just suppression of a behaviour; the real learning of a substitute behaviour comes from being rewarded for another behaviour.


I must also agree to disagree. 
You see, I understand that many gundog trainers use an empty belly to make their dogs more keen to work, but we need our dogs to be calm and and co-operative, not manic or anxious. Especially in a street, where a child might wander past munching a burger. 
I would rather take more time and build up in stages than go for the confrontation, even if it does take a lot longer. I`d feel happier doing it that way. One of my dogs gets very hyperactive if I get too assertive - it`s his way of coping. So I have to back off and calm him. And there he has taught me a good lesson. 
If you find what motivates the dog it becomes easier.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I do not know of any gundog trainers who use an empty belly to make their dogs more keen to work!  They would not get very far of course as not only would they, according to you, become manic and anxious, but of course they would not be able to perform for the full day's work of either walked up or driven shooting!

As gundog owners need their dogs to be "calm and cooperative" as in fact ALL dog owners do IME. 

As EIC (exercise induced collapse) is a real worry in these conditions no gundog trainer would to this.

Not IME anyway 

There is a huge difference between being a bit peckish and starvation, IME. 

And of course if the dog is on the lead I am struggling to understand what a child eating a burger has got to do with this scenario?

Especially in this case where the dog is not actually moving........

(perhaps the child with the burger might trip over said dog?)

ROFLMAO


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