# Siamese & Oriental Breeders - Question



## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

Hello all 

I have a sort of long winded question for you - I really hope I don't sound irresponsible - I'm not! I just don't quite understand the importance of certain documents yet - despite owning a pedigree (registered) myself.

I am looking to buy an Oriental kitten - not a show quality kitten, just a pet.

I don't actually know the importance of a registered breeder who's kittens are registered - I ASSUME it is because with a registered breeder you can trace blood lines and you know the kittens will be well cared for and come from good, healthy stock - please correct me if I'm wrong because I'd like to know.

However, I have found a pure breed oriental kitten - mum is a foreign white oriental and dad is a Siamese. The parents are registered (I believe) but kittens won't be. I've been a bit sneaky and looked the women up on Facebook (stalker!) and found lots of photos of mum and babies who all look like very much loved and happy family pets so I'm reassured they're from a loving home and not someone who's trying to breed lots of unregistered kittens.

The owner said she wanted to let her two cats have a litter before she spayed them (which I believe) and I can tell she loved her cats and isn't a back street breeder as such.

Now I am tempted by this kitten (he costs £200) but I want to know if buying him would be a very irresponsible thing to do - personally, considering I just want an Oriental cat for it's temperament and these kittens appear to come from a loving family home, I don't see a problem, but people with more experience may think differently and I wanted your opinions because I really care about the kitten I buy and it's future!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Reigstration is the nearest thing to a guarantee that the pedigree is true - there are plenty of BYBs out there faking pedigrees. However being registered doesn't guarantee the kittens are raised as you would like - you need to visit, and to be strong enough to walk away if you don't like what you find.

Your kitten sounds to be from a BYB. Why isn't she registering them? It costs a few quid, not much in the scale of the costs of raising a kitten to 12 or 13 weeks.

Her cats maybe registered, but are they on the active (breeding) register? Or is she breeding from cats brought as pets not for breeding?

Why does she want her cats to 'have a litter before they are spayed'? There are no health benefits to it, indeed there are risks, and the best age to spay / castrate is before 6 months. It's donkey's years since (some) vets believed it was best for a cat to have a litter before spaying.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> Reigstration is the nearest thing to a guarantee that the pedigree is true - there are plenty of BYBs out there faking pedigrees. However being registered doesn't guarantee the kittens are raised as you would like - you need to visit, and to be strong enough to walk away if you don't like what you find.
> 
> Your kitten sounds to be from a BYB. Why isn't she registering them? It costs a few quid, not much in the scale of the costs of raising a kitten to 12 or 13 weeks.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply - have responded to your pm.

I couldn't answer those questions, but maybe I should ask her!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I've just sent a PM with more info.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

OrientalSlave said:


> I've just sent a PM with more info.


Really appreciated and answered my question for me!


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Like OS had said , BYB

Mum and dad may be registered but not active this is probably why these kittens are being sold unregistered and at the price 

What age are these kittens and at what age are they being released to thier new homes

Personally I would stay away... But the ball is in your court


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I wouldnt go for it,its supporting a breeder who by the sounds of it shouldnt be breeding the cats.

Yep her cats may be registered but most likely (not for breeding with - none active registered) so they broke the trust of the breeder who sold them the cats by breeding them.

If the were registered active then there would be a problem registering the offspring ..like OS said it costs just a few quid.

Its possible theres another reason for not registering such as litters too close together or other reasons however i highly doubt its the case if they say 'they want just the 1 litter' boy that annoys me when they say that.

Id go to a reputable breeder they are worlds apart believe me.

People think the are getting the same cat but cheaper going to byb but when the cheap cat gets ill it quickly over rides the price of the quality kitty from the reputable breeder due to vet fees


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I'd steer clear, I originally wanted a 'pet' only Siamese (although over time I've been thinking about possibly showing) but I still wanted her to be properly registered & with a traceable history for my own peace of mind.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I would say definitely a byb breeding from cats on the non active register, especially with her saying she wants to breed from them before getting them spayed/neutered, if her cats are on the non active register she has made a promise to their breeder to spay/neuter when they are old enough and definitely not to breed from them...not even one litter. 
When we sell kittens on the non active register we trust the new owners to do the right thing and get their little ops sorted as soon as they are old enough, for a customer to do the complete opposite to what they have promised when signing a kitten contract is really upsetting.
I would steer clear and go to a proper breeder who does things correctly and get all the paperwork showing your kitten is what it is said to be. 
To register a kitten costs around £9 it isn't expensive so if her cats were on the active register she wouldn't have a problem doing that.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't trust people to neuter my kittens so they are ready to leave already neutered, from 13 weeks. Even if people really mean to they can suddenly find their cute little girl kitten is expanding, or that handsome lad has started some rather unpleasent and smelly habits round the house. It's peace of mind for me and it also will help fend off potential BYBs.


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi there,

Agree 100% with everything that's been said and the advice given has been fantastic but just wanted to add the following couple of things.

If this person has deliberately bred from 2 cats on the non-active register that they have promised to neuter and bought as pets only when taking from their unsuspecting original breeders how on earth can you trust them to be honest with you about the kitten you are considering buying and the circumstances surrounding birth, health, temperament etc? 

Also apart from the obvious deceit factor, the non-active register is also the safeguard used to prevent kittens going into the gene pool if a health defect has been thrown up in another kitten in the litter etc to prevent more kittens being born and suffering from the same, this could include heart defects, physical anomalies and a whole host of other things, its impossible to know the actual reason for the original non-active registration without going back to breeders of both mother and father but in all cases without exception means this cat is not suitable for breeding from/was agreed would not be bred from for whatever reason and this litter should never have occurred. 

I often quote the following 'cheap kittens that cost you a fortune in the long run' when asked if it is a good idea to buy from situations of this kind. I have bred Siamese for 20 years and could write a book on what can go wrong for the poor new owners! 

Please look for an ethical breeder who is breeding from appropriately registered and health tested parents, who knows their breed inside out and can help you find a fantastic well socialised kitten, great temperament, min of 13 weeks with both vaccinations done, all paperwork and a lifetime of support and back up if you need it as there are plenty of fantastic breeders out there. 

Hope this helps, Lisa.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lisajjl1 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Agree 100% with everything that's been said and the advice given has been fantastic but just wanted to add the following couple of things.
> 
> ...


That point had eluded me, thanks for mentioning it. And that also means you can't trust them to not have mated a brother & sister...


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

Thank you everyone for making it more clear for me! I'm not going to get the kitten, don't worry. I'm looking for a kitten from a reputable breeder as you've made me understand the meaning of registration a lot more - really appreciated!


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

The breeder isn't based in Devon is she? 

£200 is very cheap for an Oriental. Who knows what other corners the breeder has cut to keep the costs down.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

Lunabuma said:


> The breeder isn't based in Devon is she?
> 
> £200 is very cheap for an Oriental. Who knows what other corners the breeder has cut to keep the costs down.


No - she was in Suffolk!


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Just had a Google and if its the kittens that I have just looked at definitely a no go on the ethics and common sense front - says kittens born 5.11.13 and ready to leave in the next few weeks even though only 8 weeks or so at most now, and no mention of vaccinations, insurance etc. 

The pic of the mother cat looks like an odd eyed cat??? Not an expert on Whites but sure these are not allowed in GCCF although maybe TICA do..and says dad is a 'chocolate seal' cant be both?????

Lots of ringing alarm bells here.


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

There are lots of kittens closer to you here ..

Oriental Kittens For Sale| Oriental Kitten List


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Lunabuma said:


> There are lots of kittens closer to you here ..
> 
> Oriental Kittens For Sale| Oriental Kitten List


Some really lovely babies on there.....although shouldn't be looking myself and now am feeling tempted!!!!!


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> The pic of the mother cat looks like an odd eyed cat??? Not an expert on Whites but sure these are not allowed in GCCF although maybe TICA do..and says dad is a 'chocolate seal' cant be both?????
> 
> Lots of ringing alarm bells here.


Odd Eyed Whites and Green Eyed Whites are called White Orientals, only Blue Eyed are classed as Foreign Whites, any Blue Eyed White kittens born to an Odd Eyed or Green Eyed are classed as Oriental Type with the GCCF, they are put on the GCCF ref register. GCCF don't recognise them to show but will allow them on the ref reg, they are recognised as Orientals with Tica though.
Only Foreign Whites are recognised with the GCCF...shame really as both the Odd Eyed and Green Eyed are stunning, our girl is a Green Eyed White and is beautiful. Hopefully one day the GCCF will recognise these too.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

sharonbee said:


> <snip>
> 
> Hopefully one day the GCCF will recognise these too.


And send the Foreign White and pointed Bicolours over to the Siamese section where they belong...


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I just dont get why they should be separated by colour it makes things seem rather complicated.Imagine if they did it with all the breeds.


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## Katien siamese (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi there. I am starting out as a new breeder, always had and loved Siamese! I know the breed very well, my beloved boy and girl seal point Siamese are registered active, they were both bought from excellent breeders and well known, with excellent pedigree and grand and imperial champion blood lines, also on the active register! They are both sexually mature, female is in season, and has been off and on since before Xmas. Unfortunately my lovely male does not seem to be bothered! Is it the inexperience of them, or is because they are both together and have been since I bought them a month apart from kittens. I always wanted both sexes and to do it within the love of the home, rather than take my female to a stud I don't know much a bout. Any opinions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Katien siamese said:


> Hi there. I am starting out as a new breeder, always had and loved Siamese! I know the breed very well, my beloved boy and girl seal point Siamese are registered active, they were both bought from excellent breeders and well known, with excellent pedigree and grand and imperial champion blood lines, also on the active register! They are both sexually mature, female is in season, and has been off and on since before Xmas. Unfortunately my lovely male does not seem to be bothered! Is it the inexperience of them, or is because they are both together and have been since I bought them a month apart from kittens. I always wanted both sexes and to do it within the love of the home, rather than take my female to a stud I don't know much a bout. Any opinions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks


Welcome to the forum. 
It might be worth you making a new thread, there are many breeders here who will be able to help.

Edit... We must see pics of your lovelies, there's a thread called we are Siamese in the cat chat section - or just start a new thread to say hello. We are a friendly bunch.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Katien siamese said:


> Hi there. I am starting out as a new breeder, always had and loved Siamese! I know the breed very well, my beloved boy and girl seal point Siamese are registered active, they were both bought from excellent breeders and well known, with excellent pedigree and grand and imperial champion blood lines, also on the active register! They are both sexually mature, female is in season, and has been off and on since before Xmas. Unfortunately my lovely male does not seem to be bothered! Is it the inexperience of them, or is because they are both together and have been since I bought them a month apart from kittens. I always wanted both sexes and to do it within the love of the home, rather than take my female to a stud I don't know much a bout. Any opinions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks


How old is the boy? male cats start working between 10-18 months but that can vary.Give them time.One thing about keeping stud with your girl is that you are not going to be sure on your dates as he might get her when you dont notice..maybe he already has.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> How old is the boy? male cats start working between 10-18 months but that can vary


That's very late for a Siamese, they often start working around 5-6 months, with many retired by 10 months among the breeders I know. Same working age as mine and other active breeds.

It's generally not best to pair 2 virgins together. Can you use an outside stud for your girls first litter?


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi there,

Congratulations on your choice of breed! : )

Just wondering how old are both your cats now? You may have an issue with a late developing boy or because they are both inexperienced in this area. 

When I had an inexperienced boy I felt the best option for him the first time was my most experienced girl which worked well and vice versa with a maiden queen. 

There are quite wide differences in the age that cats of both sexes mature even within the same breed, its very individual. 

Lisa.


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

spotty cats said:


> That's very late for a Siamese, they often start working around 5-6 months, with many retired by 10 months among the breeders I know. Same working age as mine and other active breeds.
> 
> It's generally not best to pair 2 virgins together. Can you use an outside stud for your girls first litter?


I seem to have late developers...one of my boys was 18 months old before he fathered his first litter and his nephew is now 13 months old and not showing any signs of interest.

Conversely my other boy, unrelated lines, fathered his first litter at 10 months and was hot to trot with anything with a pulse well before that given half a chance!!!!

Agree that the norm seems to be early rather than later with Siamese though and have also heard from other breeders about young boys fathering litters...not always planned, as they matured so early!!

Lisa.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Like the other have said it all depends on the cat 

My boy has only just started working at 17 months , the girls alot younger 

I would never keep an entire male around my girls unsupervised, he really needs his own quarters and when they mature you will smell them too 

Once they get the taste for it there is no stopping them

Don't wait until your stud is mature , if your girl is calling and has had more than enough calls you need to go to stud


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