# Looking for a little help



## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to help me? I've started a new project - whether it will be a book or just another website, or a bit of both I'm not sure yet, but I'm putting together some stuff about showing for the newbie.

I'm still learning, and having stumbled through so far, thought advice starting from buying a puppy to show (or deciding to show your pet dog) ringcraft, through to explaining the classes etc and ending up at Crufts would be useful. For example, it took me a while to understand what being a 'seen' dog meant, and why it was not always beneficial to enter lots of classes!

There are gaps in my knowledge though, and it would be really useful if folks here could help me out from time to time - my main drawback is that I know about my own breed, but not much about other breeds.

The question I currently would like to know more info on is what happens in the ring. For Irish Setters we go in, stand our dogs, maybe asked to all run round the ring, stand them for the judge then move them, quick stand back at the judge, then back in line, then all stand dogs together. 

Is that the same sort of thing that happens with all breeds, or are some breeds different? 

Bit of a cheek picking your brains, but I know you're all extremely helpful and knowledgeable on here!


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

With Papillons, it depends on the judge. Normally we will stand(sometimes we just go without standing), go around the ring, then on the table, then triangle and up and down. Stand when back to judge then go round to back of line when judge asks you to. 

When the dog is moving is when you set up on the table. 

After he last dog gets to the back of the line you stand your dogs and the judge picks.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Kicksforkills said:


> With Papillons, it depends on the judge. Normally we will stand(sometimes we just go without standing), go around the ring, then on the table, then triangle and up and down. Stand when back to judge then go round to back of line when judge asks you to.
> 
> When the dog is moving is when you set up on the table.
> 
> After he last dog gets to the back of the line you stand your dogs and the judge picks.


Not too different to my breed then.


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## Kicksforkills (Mar 27, 2012)

Nope, I think the only differences are the speed you move them and if they go on a table or not


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> I wonder if anyone would be kind enough to help me? I've started a new project - whether it will be a book or just another website, or a bit of both I'm not sure yet, but I'm putting together some stuff about showing for the newbie.
> 
> I'm still learning, and having stumbled through so far, thought advice starting from buying a puppy to show (or deciding to show your pet dog) ringcraft, through to explaining the classes etc and ending up at Crufts would be useful. For example, it took me a while to understand what being a 'seen' dog meant, and why it was not always beneficial to enter lots of classes!
> 
> ...


It's not cheeky at all - it's what the site is all about.

Breeds do vary - some dogs are "stacked" - so "held out" when presenting to the judge before and after each dog has been "examined" and moved.

Other breeds are free standing - Labs are free standing (which can be great fun when you have one who refuses to keep four feet on the ground at the same time!!)

However the dogs stand though - the principle is the same although individual judges approaches may very slightly - some judges like to see all the dogs run around together - I like to do this - they then examine the judges individually and move them - then they may ask them to move together again at the end.

One thing that really irritates me when you have a big ring is when large breed dogs are all squashed up together - try to avoid getting squashed into a corner in the line up and don't be afraid to move to another position (the only time this doesn't apply is when you are a seen dog and may have been positioned by the steward) - but I was at a show yesterday and the gundog group were using less than half the ring - baffles me when there is lots of space

Setters look beautiful on the move if they have a nice big ring as do most gundogs - it's very frustrating when you get a small ring for large dogs.

Obviously when the judge goes over the dog - for the larger dogs - they will be standing on the floor - for smaller dogs - they judge will usually use a table.

It will take you a while to learn all the rules - a friends pup got BOB and BPIB at a show a few weeks ago - and (as quite rightly entitled to do so) withdrew from the AV gundog Puppy class so it could go forward for the group and puppy group - I was surprised to notice it caused confusion with the steward and judge - she got Puppy Group 3.

A good idea when you start showing is to watch some of the other breeds in the ring before and after you've been in - go and enjoy yourself - and remember - whatever your results, you always take the best dog home with you 

You might find the following link useful

Dog Show Central UK - Show Terminology


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Some breeds are different, for example when stacked staffies and bullmastiffs are shown facing the judge, not in profile. Shepherds are shown not four square, and are sometimes asked to walk as well as trot.

Maybe it would be a cool idea to get people from different breeds to write a page or so with a general overview of showing in their breed, or their most important tips for their breed?

A good book to read is 'Show Dog: The Charmed Life and Trying Times of a Near-Perfect Purebred' by Josh Dean, although American, gives a good look at the whole dog show scene and had lots of little inside tips and tricks people use. It's a nice read too  

If you've got any questions you think I could help with just drop me a PM xx


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Thanks all! Very useful! 

Swarthy - I've already had experience of being pushed into the corner in a big class - and had people move their dog slightly forward in the ring so it's harder for the judge to see mine. So I've already written about that. 

One other question - I think the 'Maiden' and 'Debutante' classes are the same thing? And is there any difference between the criteria for a'Novice' and 'Undergraduate'? I've been looking at schedules and searching the 'net, but sorting out a definitive definition is harder than it sounds. 

By the way, I'm doing it a bit differently rather than just describing the criteria, I'm advising when such a class should be entered. 

I'm only on Open shows at the moment - and am already well over 4000 words! 

Great idea about asking people for input, Dober! I'll definitely be on the scrounge for photos to use. I've got the 'how not to do it' pics of me and Bess!


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

The classification/requirements for each class will be in the back of the schedule for the show, as they do vary slightly sometimes.

Maiden is normally if your dog has not had a win at a championship show (not including minor puppy and puppy classes) once you have won maiden once, you move I the next available class (normally novice)

Novice is normally 3 wins (not including MP and P) so once you have won novice 3 times you can no longer compete in novice classes, you move up to the next available class.

Results need to be accurate as of a week before entry closes; so if you win out of novice one day and next week you have already entered novice, you stay in novice.

Wins count whether you are the only person in the class or not. I use these classes for getting JW points; for example if you get 1st in puppy and 1st in novice, and there are 3 or more dogs in each class, then that is 6 points in one show


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

One interesting snippet I picked up from a club secretary, is that if you're ever in a ring or against a dog that needs to be stood on a table, they should go first. I was in a fun competition and wanted to give Zasa time to settle down, so did someone with a CC, but as it turned out, she had to go first in any case.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> Thanks all! Very useful!
> 
> Swarthy - I've already had experience of being pushed into the corner in a big class - and had people move their dog slightly forward in the ring so it's harder for the judge to see mine. So I've already written about that.
> 
> ...


If people are pushing you into a corner - it could often be because they see your dog as a threat - MOVE

Debutante and Maiden are different - Maiden - you must not have had a first outside puppy at an Open or Champ Show

Debutante (sadly a class we don't see that often) is for dog who've not had a first at a CH show outside puppy

Got to go meet my new grandson now - but will read more thoroughly when I get back


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I don't reckon I'll have enough for a book - I'll have enough for an encyclopaedia! 

Back to the drawing board on class definitions then. And that's a really interesting point, Dober, about points for a JW. 

My view was that you shouldn't enter too many classes as if you're beaten in the first class, and some of the other dogs placed above you enter the subsequent classes too, you haven't got a chance of a good placing in the next classes. Which can be demoralising. So I'm looking at it from my viewpoint where my dog needs maturing, and my handling needs a great deal of improvement! I've also been in classes with others who are in the same position as me, and we're left standing in the ring as 'seen' dogs, right down the line, with no hope of being placed. But then the classes I've been in at Champ shows have had up to 19 dogs in them.

But your viewpoint is with having an outstanding dog! Will have to consider how to write from both sides.

I presume it also makes a difference if the classes for the breed tend to be smaller? 

I do think it would be useful to capture all this info in a book - well, I'd be interested in it anyway. Not just the facts of what happens, but interpreting them so it makes sense to someone new to showing.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

If you win puppy or minor puppy, in my opinion you have a pretty good chance of winning maiden and novice.

When aspen was 7/8 months, I would enter her in minor puppy and puppy, then novice but we quickly won out way out of it. Sometimes we might win one and not the other, but at least better chance of getting some points. I hate driving hours on end to a show, only to get 2nd place in our class when we beat a lot of dogs!! I kicked myself one show, because we had beaten all the dogs in undergrad by getting 2nd in another class, but we'd only entered one class! Basically gave away 3 points.

I would only enter a puppy on novice/maiden, if a dog was older id probably put him/her in undergrad or something like that. It depends on what is available on the day though.

One of my inside tips would always watch the judge carefully when being placed, and if you think the judge might have pointed to you, go up and stand in the line up. If you're wrong, then someone will correct you. I once wasnt sure if the judge pointed to me or the lady next to me, the lady next to me went straight up and claimed it, and the judge at a later date (and lots of people standing outside the ring!!) told me she actually pointed to me. Goodbye another 3 points!!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Dober said:


> I would only enter a puppy on novice/maiden, if a dog was older id probably put him/her in undergrad or something like that. It depends on what is available on the day though.


It depends to some extent on the maturity of the dog as well - my youngest boy was very immature - then all of a sudden - he looked like an adult dog 

Because he was competing against his sister - I've moved him up to Graduate at Open shows (where applicable) - we seem to be lacking puppy classes atm - so obviously Junior wins are pushing us out of Maiden / Novice as well - so all we've succeeded in doing now is that my boy is out of Novice and his sister is out of maiden  although we don't have any shows until next year with those classes anyway - summer is the best time for the shows because eligibility for one often "closes" before other shows have happened - meaning some dogs get quite a few wins in maiden and novice long after they would technically be out of them


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

You should always check the schedule for the definitions of classes. I have been to some breed club shows when sometimes a class such is novice states not to have one a first at that particular clubs shows whether open or champ shows but it doesn't matter if you have won at another show.

In mixed breed classes table dogs must always go to the front of the line.

If you enter more than 1 breed class say post grad and open at an open show and your dog wins its first class you can not withdraw from the other class to remain unbeaten. If however your dog is best of breed and wins the group or the show is not on a group system and so you have qualified for best in show you can withdraw from any Any Variety classe you may have entered.

Perhaps and easier way of saying it is if you are BOB and win the group but have entered maybe AV open at the end of the day you can withdraw form AV open to remain unbeaten.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Also if you are the last dog seen don't rush your dog take your time to stand it the judge will give you time to set your dog up even if there are only 2 in the class so don't panic and rush the same applies to moving your dog take your time make sure your lead is in the correct place on the dogs neck before you move off then if the dog bounces or shakes stop go back to were you started and start again.

The best advice I was ever given about showing was to relax enjoy yourself and remember you always take the best dog home at the end of the day it is only 1 persons opinion of your dog and just because that person doesn't think your dog good enough to win the next judge might.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Freyja said:


> The best advice I was ever given about showing was to relax enjoy yourself and remember you always take the best dog home at the end of the day it is only 1 persons opinion of your dog and just because that person doesn't think your dog good enough to win the next judge might.


Think this is the best bit of advise in the thread to date  Enjoy it, people take showing to seriously they really do, and it's about how good your dog is on any given day, different judges like different things, and sometimes they don't even judge the right end of the lead, but if you and your dog have fun, and enjoy it that's what showing should be about, sadly it's often more about the points and cc's no matter what the cost...


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Some really good replies on here already. In border collies, the novice class is mainly used by those chasing JW points. People usually have an eye on Crufts qualifications and once out of yearling tend to move their dogs up to post grad as soon as they can - and then their eyes are on limit and open so they can get the stud book number.

Movement is key in judging border collies, and most judges do the following:

1. Send round the ring twice
2. Go over each dog individually, and then move each dog in a triangle and up and down and then around the ring to the end of the queue. (Some judges will repeat this at walking pace)
3. Shortlist about seven or eight dogs
4. Move each dog individually again - sometimes triangle, up and down, and back to the end, but more often just up and down.
5. Move dogs' position in the line up into what he thinks is going to be his final selection
6. Send the dogs round the ring once (or often twice)
7. Final visual check of line up - sometimes another look or brief hands on at one or two things like one dog's ears, one dog's muscle etc etc
8. Call out places.

Hope this helps - feel free to pm me at any time with any questions you might have


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

You also have to think how many entries your breed gets. Tollers usually just have junior, post grad, open at open shows and puppy, junior, post grad, limit, open at champ shows. The only show we have a novice class at is the club show.
Good luck if you attempt to write about the unbeaten rule!


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

I was given the great advice by another ES person to use all the ring available when moving your dog - go right up to the corners and the end of the ring. The space is there, maximize it! Always make sure it's the _dog_ being moved towards the judge too, not you.


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