# Enlarged Spleen



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

That's it then.........what Alfie is probably going to die from.

Been to the vets this morning about all sorts of things. I've been telling her that his deterioration has excelerated alarmingly but we had thought it either his Cognitive Dysfunction Syndrome or his legs,

The last few days I'd noticed his abdomen was a little droopy, I wasn't sure if it was just that he's had to give up his hydro or something else, but he's also become rather lethargic

Vet had a feel around and said his spleen is swollen and it was probably due to a growth.

I have options to either get him xrayed and have his spleen out, at his age and with his leg issues I'm not sure that's really an option 
Leave it and PTS when he deteriorates more or wait for the inevitable bleed 


The vet must have seen thousands of these cases and seems very confident in her diagnosis even without an xray.

Anyone had experience of this?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm sort, rona, this can't be easy for you. Watching an old and much loved dog steadily go downhill is very distressing.
My only experience with this is with an IS some thirty odd years ago. He was only 7 and had been healthy and happy when he began to become lethargic, not eating and not wanting to go for a walk. We took him to the vet who said he could feel a mass and wanted to do an op to see what was going on. He phoned us later to say that he had found a large tumour of the spleen. He said he could remove the spleen, but had also found that the tumour had spread to the liver, so there was no hope. We decided to let him go. 
I hope you have some more time left with Alfie.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Am so sorry Rona.

Only similar experience I had was with Benson and his was liver cancer - by the time he showed any signs x-ray revealed he had no functioning liver left. We were given the option of taking him home to have a few more days with him but if we got the timing wrong the fluid build up would affect his heart, breathing and he could fit so we felt the only option was to let him go. We were with him at least, he was only 5


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Thinking of you both Rona


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm sorry Rona. 

Large splenic masses are easy to diagnose by abdominal palpation alone. Of course, other information that influences the prognosis includes:
1. Whether it is benign or malignant - both forms exist - you would need a biopsy to know.
2. Whether it has spread to other organs. A good ultrasound machine and skilled ultrasonographer may be able to tell.

Generally, though, the answers to both questions require surgery - to remove the spleen and get some samples sent, and to inspect the other organs visually. It's also worth bearing in mind that Goldens can get the malignant form on their heart as well and it can sometimes go hand-in-hand with the splenic form.  A scan of his heart would tell you - it may be visible on an X-ray.

The nature of splenic tumours means they tend to pop up in older dogs, so on that basis most of the surgeries we do to remove them are in older souls. The prognosis for the benign form is excellent, and I have seen so many elderly dogs go on to live for many more years past the point their owners thought that was it. My friend and colleague's dog had his spleen removed at the age of 12 and last week just passed away, just shy of his sixteenth birthday.

Obviously, the malignant form has a poor prognosis and surgery usually only buys weeks - months at a push. 

The difficulty is, it's a bit of a gamble whether or not to pursue the surgery when you won't find out all the answers until afterwards. It would be much better to make that decision armed with all the prognostic information - it's a horrible situation. It IS possible to obtain biopsies without surgery, which may help. It is possible to get a FNA (fine-needle aspirate) of the spleen by popping a needle into the spleen through the skin, but it generally requires guidance with an ultrasound machine and obviously is not risk free.

You know Alfie. If you know surgery would hit him too hard to be fair on him, then nobody here is in a position to say otherwise. Equally, some dogs do really well even at an old age.

Thoughts with you xxx


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Aw Rona I'm sorry to hear that. Thinking of you and Alfie.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Oh rona  I'm sorry. No experience of this condition. 

You'll always do what's best by him, of that I am sure- whatever that choice is. 
Sending you and Alfie lots of love.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Oh mate.................

You two have been through so much together, however rightly or wrongly I still hope that when the time comes for him, it's gentle and after a lovely stroll and maybe a little plodge, a full belly a small sigh and falling asleep with you beside him. 

Never experienced this, so no help I'm afraid. But I know whatever you do will be the right thing xxx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I've thought about this all day and I know for a fact that Alfie is not a dog to be happy confined to home all the time. With the state of his joints now I'm sure it won't be long before that will happen. The vet did a reflex test this morning by turning his back feet so that he was standing on the front not his pads. He made no attempt to right them 
If he's operated on, we may lose our last outings together. I did think he wouldn't make the end of the year because of his legs alone, this may just bring it forward a few months.

This bloody weather is stealing our time :cryin:



Shoshannah
Any information on signs to look out for or a guestimate of time frames in either prognosis without treatment would be very much appreciated. If it's only to be weeks I'll sort something out about my walk dogs for the summer so that I can spend more time with him


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I am so sorry Rona 

Sending hugs to you and Alfie xx


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Oh!! so sorry Rona if Alfie was mine I would hope that I would know when the time had come for him to gently go to sleep,as you know I have had to do this many times with my oldies and you do know when there bodies have had enough.Thinking of you and Alfie.xx


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Fingers and toes and everything else crossed for you to have a bit longer than you expect together xx


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## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:


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## Bryxy (Jun 6, 2013)

Really sorry to hear this Rona. 
I went through similar with George, he had a mass on his spleen they found during an ultrasound. We could either do the surgery or leave it and then pts when the time came. He was about 12 years old (never sure on his true age). I was completely unsure, it was my family really that convinced me to go through with the surgery and the vet backed up that decision so we went through with it. The vet did say though that it would possibly only give us a few more months, it depended on the type of mass. They X-Rayed him first to check if there was any spread to his lungs, there wasn't any so went ahead. Turned out to be three masses on his spleen, two small and one bigger was close to rupture, the vet said it must've been there for a long time. After his surgery he was back to normal and on his feet in under 24 hours, he healed from it really well and stayed active which impressed the vet. 
It turned out to be an indolent lymphoma, which was really not expected. It meant the removal of the spleen very likely cured him, but if it had spread it was so slow growing it was unlikely to affect him for a number of years.
Heartbreakingly he did pass on months later, but due to a completely unrelated condition. 

It was a really tough decision for me and I needed a lot of assurance from people to make the choice I made because I really wasn't sure. It's really difficult because there's a lot of uncertainties since we didn't know exactly what the mass was unless he had the surgery.
You know Alfie best and will know what's right by him better than anyone, really sorry you're both going through this.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

such sad news Rona, enjoy him while you can.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Argh Rona, I'm so sorry for you and Alfie. 

I had a greyhound that had her spleen removed, although I think at the time she was probably around 9 years old, she went on and lived another 3 years without a spleen. I know that each dog is different so you can only do what you think is in his best interest. I know you will. I hope you have a lot longer together though bless him. 

I hate this part of dog ownership.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Rona, I am so sorry and devastated for you and Alfie. I haven't had this happen to me, but Laska had a liver mass, that I found out about in the same way you have, when I had taken her in for her routine thyroid check and bloods. I mentioned the larger/ dropped abdomen appearance and the vet could feel it on exam.
At that stage she wasn't unwell, eating drinking, wanting to go on walks but tired more quickly and sooner, so I adjusted the walks, taking her in the car to all her most favourite places.

I don't know if the spleen would cause the same effects as a liver mass, but as Laska was still good in herself and had a decent quality of life plus I didn't have the surgical option anyway, I let her continue while she was happy and had a decent quality of life with her she got a good couple of months, she became ill and flat very suddenly literally overnight. Dot know how much help this will be though as I don't know if it will have similar effects.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm so sorry to hear this Rona :sad: Thinking of you and Alfie at this sad time xx


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## Tilldob (Dec 27, 2012)

So sorry rona.We are both going through hell at the moment. Lets just hope and pray our buddies dont suffer. I am starting a bucket list for Tillie number 1 eat a juicy Sirloin steak.Take care


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Oh Rona. I'm so sorry. Only you can make this decision. He could have more time if it could be removed. 

I knew with my dogs though, who were seen by vets in an emergency who didn't know them, that the few extra months offered would not be a good quality of life. So made the hard decision to let them go. 

I hope Alfie still has years left in him, but know that you will make the hardest decision for you, and the kindest for him, when the time comes. 

Hopefully it will be not just yet. If this is a battle you can fight, fight it. On
Y you, your vet, and Alfie can know.


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## Roger Downes (Sep 17, 2013)

Very sorry to hear this. Hope you and Alfie have a bit longer than you think to enjoy each others company. Have always found old dogs do struggle in the heat, so fingers crossed it will cool down.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

So sorry to hear this about Alfie Rona. It was a mass on her spleen that our dear little Indi had, hers was malignant & aggressive. The vets did say before they scanned her that provided the cancer wasn't malignant and hadn't spread they could remove her spleen and she could go on to live a normal life without it. Indi was only 7 and without other problems so had it not spread to her heart it would have been an easy decision for us to go ahead and have it removed. Indi seemed fine in herself up until the week before she had to be pts. I know you'll do the right thing by Alfie, I hope you have a lot more time together. 

.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Tilldob said:


> So sorry rona.We are both going through hell at the moment. Lets just hope and pray our buddies dont suffer. I am starting a bucket list for Tillie number 1 eat a juicy Sirloin steak.Take care


I try and make sure we do something at least once a week or more if everything is right, that excites the old boy and puts a smile on his beautiful face and some fire in his old eyes 



BessieDog said:


> Oh Rona. I'm so sorry. Only you can make this decision. He could have more time if it could be removed.
> 
> I knew with my dogs though, who were seen by vets in an emergency who didn't know them, that the few extra months offered would not be a good quality of life. So made the hard decision to let them go.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately Alfie doesn't have years even if he hadn't an enlarged Spleen because his legs are so bad. I think the vet is astounded at just how much he's still been able to do over the last few months with legs that bad.

Sheer determination or stupidity on his and his owners part I think  We just won't give up on the outings until we have to 

I don't think it would be fair to fight this one 
Even the vet agreed that she wouldn't, had he been hers. 
I've been saying to her for months that he won't make Xmas and she's been poohooing it, yesterday she told me that she now thinks he'll been gone by then


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Just sitting thinking about Alfie,you two squeeze every minute you have together which I know you will.Vet told me yesterday that Dolly's spleen is enlarged I saw her face drop when she was feeling her tummy.xx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> Just sitting thinking about Alfie,you two squeeze every minute you have together which I know you will.Vet told me yesterday that Dolly's spleen is enlarged I saw her face drop when she was feeling her tummy.xx


Oh no..........

Are you going to do anything about it?


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## Freddie and frank (Mar 26, 2012)

Oh rona, I'm so sorry.  
Sending lots of hugs and thoughts your way. X


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Oh no, im so sorry to hear this. After all he has been through 

I think you are right not to go down the surgery route.

Heres hoping for some cooler weather so you can get back out there more.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

rona said:


> Oh no..........
> 
> Are you going to do anything about it?


I will go back to vets next week as thats all she said her spleen is enlarged,but with Dolly she has heart problems,I tend to think it is the result of being on a puppy farm for 8 years :crying:


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Realy sorry to hear Alfies news  x


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> I will go back to vets next week as thats all she said her spleen is enlarged,but with Dolly she has heart problems,I tend to think it is the result of being on a puppy farm for 8 years :crying:


My vet reckons that Alfie is already having small bleeds. His abdomen is a little distended, though we did a capillary refill test and it was good.

Do you think you'd go ahead with an operation on Dolly?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

So sorry to hear this. Until you said about his feet my gut was saying to have the op done.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

This is such sad news Rona. Alfie is such a special boy I can only begin to imagine what you are going through. Enjoy your time together....and hope that Alfies passingwill be peaceful and pain free.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh no Rona, I am so very sorry to read this 

I'm wishing cooler weather so the 2 of you can enjoy some lovely rambles together


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Oh Rona I'm so sorry.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Devastating news. Just enjoy what's left, and remember how he'll always live on in your heart.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Am so sorry Rona, no experience but sending you both lots of hugs  xx


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm sorry Rona  I know it's hard, but try not to grieve for him whilst he's still here xx


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Oh Rona I've only just spotted this thread, I'm so sorry to hear this news about your lovely boy, can't give any advise but I hope you still have lots of happy days together.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Just wondering if this was the start of this 

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/330214-alfie-vets.html


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

rona said:


> Just wondering if this was the start of this
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/330214-alfie-vets.html


That was 10 months ago I am sure he would have been really poorly before now,I was wondering earlier if the being left and getting stressed has anything to do with how he feels now.Whats he like today,wish I had a magic wand Rona.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> That was 10 months ago I am sure he would have been really poorly before now,I was wondering earlier if the being left and getting stressed has anything to do with how he feels now.Whats he like today,wish I had a magic wand Rona.


I know but I've read that some dogs can live for a year depending what it is.

He's good today, a bit rough this morning but had a couple of upside down fights during the day and a "normal" walk this evening.

I think he was bad yesterday because of the examination. It was quite intense because she checked quite a lot.

How's Dolly?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

rona said:


> I know but I've read that some dogs can live for a year depending what it is.
> 
> He's good today, a bit rough this morning but had a couple of upside down fights during the day and a "normal" walk this evening.
> 
> ...


Dolly is as OK as she can be but I have decided I am not putting her through anymore operations she has had 3 in the 10 month I have had her.Glad Alfie had his "normal walk" hope he has many more,if he has a say in it he will.


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## new westie owner (Apr 30, 2010)

Sorry to be reading this Rona  enjoy every minute with your beautiful boy hope his little naughty moments are still there  hope weather cools down so Alfie can get out and about doing what he does best  take care ..


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> I've thought about this all day and I know for a fact that Alfie is not a dog to be happy confined to home all the time. With the state of his joints now I'm sure it won't be long before that will happen. The vet did a reflex test this morning by turning his back feet so that he was standing on the front not his pads. He made no attempt to right them
> If he's operated on, we may lose our last outings together. I did think he wouldn't make the end of the year because of his legs alone, this may just bring it forward a few months.
> 
> This bloody weather is stealing our time :cryin:
> ...


I agree with you. He is an old boy, with problems as it is and like you, I would want him to enjoy those final days, weeks, months (whatever they may be) as best he can.

My heart goes out to you - it's so difficult.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

I am so unbelievably sorry to read this  My heart sunk. I don't know what to say.
It's not time yet, but he has had such a fantastic life, and looks like he still has some time to create a few more great memories.

So sorry Rona


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Just caught up as not been on for a while.
So very very sorry to read about your special boy Alfie 

Enjoy every precious moment with him of every day rona and enjoy your super walks that he love's you for giving him


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

rona said:


> Shoshannah
> Any information on signs to look out for or a guestimate of time frames in either prognosis without treatment would be very much appreciated. If it's only to be weeks I'll sort something out about my walk dogs for the summer so that I can spend more time with him


Hi Rona,

Sorry, not been on over weekend so only just seen this.

Generally, the chances of most splenic masses being benign or malignant are considered to be around 50:50. If they're bleeding or the dog is collapsed, malignancy is more likely: more like 75-80% are malignant.

Removal of benign tumours is generally curative. These dogs can potentially go on for months and months untreated, but obviously they are at an increasing risk of bleeding as time goes on and the tumour grows larger. Small bleeds can cause breathlessness, anaemia, weakness. Larger bleeds can cause catastrophic collapse.

Of the 50-80% of malignant tumours, around two-thirds will be haemangiosarcoma (HSA). Sadly, Goldens are a predisposed breed for HSA, bless them.  The remaining 1/3 of malignant tumours include things like fibrosarcoma, Mast cell tumours, lymphoma... prognosis for these is variable dependent on type - some are more slow-growing than others - but many can survive for years.

With regards to HSA specifically, median survival time has been reported to be 1 to 3 months, with or without surgery (ie surgery does little to improve survival times, because the tumour usually involves other organs). Chemotherapy can potentially increase the time to 6-8 months, but is considered less effective if other organs are involved or the tumour has already bled by the time of diagnosis.

It's tricky to give a timeframe without knowing the type of growth; but I guess considering Alfie's breed HSA has to be the most likely.  Combined with his poor joints, your vet's sad prediction that he won't make it as far as Christmas is realistic.

I'm so sorry again, Rona. I feel quite callous writing down these stark facts and figures. I hope you find a way to make the most of the time you have left, Alfie being in the autumn of his life xxxxxxx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Thank you so much for that. It's exactly what I need. 
Do you think it would be worth an xray?
Would it, could it tell me more?
I don't want him to suffer 

I had a dreadful night and early morning with him. He was panting very excessively and seemed to wear himself out but kept pacing.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

rona said:


> Thank you so much for that. It's exactly what I need.
> Do you think it would be worth an xray?
> Would it, could it tell me more?
> I don't want him to suffer
> ...


An X-ray would show a mass on the spleen. If there are large secondary masses in the liver they might be visible, but if they are smaller it would not. It may show lung or heart involvement.

With the exception of the lungs, all organs would be better assessed with an ultrasound scan - I don't know if your vet has access to this?

Ultimately, though... do you think knowing any of the above would change your decision? Are you still deciding on surgery vs no surgery, or is it more a question of 'when' is his time?  xxxx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> An X-ray would show a mass on the spleen. If there are large secondary masses in the liver they might be visible, but if they are smaller it would not. It may show lung or heart involvement.
> 
> With the exception of the lungs, all organs would be better assessed with an ultrasound scan - I don't know if your vet has access to this?
> 
> Ultimately, though... do you think knowing any of the above would change your decision? Are you still deciding on surgery vs no surgery, or is it more a question of 'when' is his time?  xxxx


The question is "when is it time". If I can avoid it, I'd rather not have him totally collapse on me. Is it going to be obvious do you think? Is he going to gradually get worse?

My last dog had cancer and I let her go when she no longer wanted to walk. I thought if she didn't want to walk at all, then that was enough pain to endure.

What would you say is the best pain relief for this?

Sorry about the questions, It's easier to think when I'm on here rather than in the brief visits to the vet. Good as she is


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

rona said:


> The question is "when is it time". If I can avoid it, I'd rather not have him totally collapse on me. Is it going to be obvious do you think? Is he going to gradually get worse?
> 
> My last dog had cancer and I let her go when she no longer wanted to walk. I thought if she didn't want to walk at all, then that was enough pain to endure.
> 
> ...


I think he _could_ gradually get worse, but unfortunately none of us can predict a sudden, catastrophic bleed if something bursts or tears.  Do you know if the vet has an ultrasound? It may be helpful to pop the scanner on his abdomen and see if there already is blood in his abdomen at the moment. If so, it would suggest a recent or ongoing bleed and I'd be much more worried about a sudden collapse.

Pain is hard to define in these cases - purely speculatively, I would imagine a heavy mass 'pulling' in the abdomen could cause some abdominal pain. But I think most of the discomfort would be more from breathlessness and weakness due to blood loss or pressure on the lungs (if it is a very large mass).

What pain relief is Alfie already on for his joints? Generally some combination of an NSAID (Metacam, Rimadyl, Previcox etc) and an opioid-based medication (Tramadol, buprenorphine injections) would be used.

I think you know best when it is his time, and you will know the criteria to use to judge his quality of life based on him. These situations are so hard; my friend's dog was PTS last week (heart failure) because he was getting to the point where a nasty collapse was a possibility and she was absolutely determined to avoid that for him.

If you find it all a bit too much at the vet's, try taking some time to write down your questions or thoughts. Then give her a ring, or make an appointment to see her (with or without Alfie) to go through your list. It will help focus your throughts and discussions.

My thoughts are with you xxxx


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Rona - I'm so sad to read this today 
I know in my head that Alfie is poorly but my heart is still not ready to accept it.
I cannot begin to imagine the difficult decisions you are trying to make - to know what is best for your Sunshine Boy.
Really good to hear he is still managing to enjoy some upside down wrestles and his now 'normal' walks - and I hope you both continue to enjoy and make the most of life together.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

It's breaking my heart to read this. I reread it because I just couldn't believe what I was reading.
It's the very devastating price we pay for the honour of sharing some of best moments of our life with a special dog. It's what we sign up for every time we open out heart to another dog, and yet that does not make it any more bearable when the time approaches.
Thankfully you are aware of how serious his situation is, more than Alfie is. He knows he doesn't always feel too good, but I'd like to think we suffer more than they do psychologically...and when the 'time' does eventually come, it is the ones left behind who feel the pain. 

I don't know if this is making it worse or better for you, but it's the only comfort I was able to find when I needed it. This, and of course knowing that Alfie has been Loved, is Loved and has had a dream life with you.

I think the medical advice has been more than covered by other more knowledgeable members.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

I haven't read all this but Tara (our GSD) had an ultrasound as her abdomen was swollen. The vet found her spleen to be swollen but no mass at all. Simply her age and she does not require surgery.

We were really expecting bad news so glad we opted for the scan.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Shoshannah said:


> Do you know if the vet has an ultrasound? It may be helpful to pop the scanner on his abdomen and see if there already is blood in his abdomen at the moment. If so, it would suggest a recent or ongoing bleed and I'd be much more worried about a sudden collapse.
> 
> What pain relief is Alfie already on for his joints? Generally some combination of an NSAID (Metacam, Rimadyl, Previcox etc) and an opioid-based medication (Tramadol, buprenorphine injections) would be used.


I'm not sure if they have ultrasound. I will ask
Alfie has been on Tramadol for years now and we were prescribed Rimadyl, however the Rimadyl didn't seem to improve things at all over and above the Tramadol.
Do you think it could have been helping without any outward signs?



Fleur said:


> Rona - I'm so sad to read this today
> I know in my head that Alfie is poorly but my heart is still not ready to accept it.
> I cannot begin to imagine the difficult decisions you are trying to make - to know what is best for your Sunshine Boy.
> Really good to hear he is still managing to enjoy some upside down wrestles and his now 'normal' walks - and I hope you both continue to enjoy and make the most of life together.


It seems to be affecting him in waves and between we get glimpses of that sunshine 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/373905-little-cooler.html

I've just had another fairly bad night with him though


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

rona said:


> It seems to be affecting him in waves and between we get glimpses of that sunshine
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/373905-little-cooler.html
> 
> I've just had another fairly bad night with him though


Just had a look at your other thread- the sunshine moments are worth treasuring aren't they 

Sorry to hear he's had a bad night  I hope today is better for him and you, it's a fair bit cooler here so I hope it is for you as well.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

How's he been rona? Not too bad I hope. x


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> How's he been rona? Not too bad I hope. x


We've just had a couple of good days and nights, but we still can't go out properly because it's too hot 

Walks are getting very short, but we've been for a few drives out 

He's still eating well, toileting fine, is interested in things when we go out and likes a fight with the OH most nights 

Thanks for asking


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Good to hear you are still managing to get out and about - and Alfie is enjoying a good fight each evening 
So hot at the moment though - even when it's been cool in the night it's boiling again by 8am


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Sorry Rona I have only just seen this thread! Im so very sorry to hear the news and hope that the old boy manages to continue enjoying life with you for a while yet...


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

Big hugs coming your way at this difficult time.

If he is still enjoying doing things then take loads of videos,photos,etc . hoping the weather gets a bit cooler for all of us.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Pleased to hear things are more positive than they are negative


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad alfie is good in himself and still managing to enjoy going out and doing things rona. Alfie and you are in my thoughts. Hoping for some cooler weather to make it a bit easier for him.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

It was a little cooler here today, with some cloud and a decent breeze - hope the weather has been kind to you where you are and that you and Alfie have had a good day


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I have taken him off all extra drugs and supplements.

We are back to half dose vivitonin for his breathing and Tramadol albeit a few extra now. 

He seems so much more comfortable and less out of it. I'm sure something wasn't mixing well 

I've still got a couple of the heavy duty knockout pills if he needs them!


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Sounds good. Hope you both have a good day today. Heat seems to be very slowly dissipating as Fleur said.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

rona said:


> I have taken him off all extra drugs and supplements.
> 
> We are back to half dose vivitonin for his breathing and Tramadol albeit a few extra now.
> 
> ...


If it's working then go for it - no point taking meds etc if they don't make you feel better 
Does sound like it could possibly a clash of something - but good that you have some knock out pills on stand by


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## BOOGNME (May 13, 2014)

rona said:


> That's it then.........what Alfie is probably going to die from.
> 
> Been to the vets this morning about all sorts of things. I've been telling her that his deterioration has excelerated alarmingly but we had thought it either his Cognitive Dysfunction Syndrome or his legs,
> 
> ...


Aw Rona ur poor Boy 
Look Rona if you're not happy with vets uber confidence without an xray if your insurance covers it get an xray 
My vet missed that Boog had malignant lumps on hind leg he came through it ok in end but she totally missed it 
Sending hugs((.....)) Kisses xxxx for your brave Boy


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

BOOGNME said:


> Aw Rona ur poor Boy
> Look Rona if you're not happy with vets uber confidence without an xray if your insurance covers it get an xray
> My vet missed that Boog had malignant lumps on hind leg he came through it ok in end but she totally missed it
> Sending hugs((.....)) Kisses xxxx for your brave Boy


She's perfectly happy to do an xray, would even refer me on to someone to do scan. It's me that can't see the point.
If it's a growth, we can't tell what it is unless we operate and it's just not an option in my mind to operate.

I am still considering an xray, he loves it at the vets, they treat him like royalty and it would give a tiny insight into how bad/big it is. Still wouldn't tell me how long though 
The scan is out, I'm not entrusting his frail body to people I don't know and who don't know him either.

He's seems to be getting better at the moment instead of worse 
He insisted on doubling his morning walk this morning and we have just got back from a trip out this afternoon


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## HappyWag (Aug 25, 2012)

Sorry to hear of this. Thinking of you both x


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

As of yesterday, Alfie has halved his walks and seems quite uncomfortable.

I'm considering getting an xray done, to see if there is any visible sign of it metastasizing to other organs.

I don't want to hold on to him if he's only going to suffer. This way I could choose a day


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Poor Alf 

Is a scan not an option?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Poor Alf
> 
> Is a scan not an option?


Not at my surgery


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Not at my surgery


Oh thats a bugger. You can stay with them for a scan too.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Dont know what to say Rona but cant read and run.
Such a difficult time for you both.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

All I can say is Rona I am thinking of you and Alfie.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Sorry to hear that , poor old lad. Thoughts are with you xxx.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Thinking of you both and sending much love X


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Thinking of you both. Hope the boy is comfy.


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## staffgirl (May 1, 2013)

Thinking of you both here too. Hope he settles a bit.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Poor boy  

I hope you're doing ok Rona x


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Lost for words, but I really am thinking of you both. Alfie is such a sweetie...


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Rona I am so sorry to read about this. Sending you love and hugs.


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## feathered bird lover (May 23, 2011)

rona, i'm so sorry to read of alfie and his problems. am thinking of you both and hope that you both enjoy what time alfie has left. thinking of you both.
hugs and best wishes to you both.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Poor Alfie I am sorry to hear this. 


.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

rona said:


> As of yesterday, Alfie has halved his walks and seems quite uncomfortable.
> 
> I'm considering getting an xray done, to see if there is any visible sign of it metastasizing to other organs.
> 
> I don't want to hold on to him if he's only going to suffer. This way I could choose a day


Oh Rona 
Words just don't seem enough 
Whatever happens I know you will always do right by Alfie


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

I've only just seen this - lots of love xxxx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

So sorry to hear this Rona, thoughts are with you and Alfie. Its so hard too when you are not sure whats involved and what the exact problems are.


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

Hello Rona - I haven't been on here for ages but popped on to check out some raw food suppliers.

Saw this and couldn't go without saying something! Just wanted to let you know am thinking of you and Alfie and sending hugs xx


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Aaaaaargh 

This morning we went over to the field that yesterday he went for a walk of just 300yds, today he went across the field, glared at me when I turned for home, so I thought I'd just go with the flow as I do when he shortens a walk. He then crossed the next field, went around the wood back across both fields, a walk we haven't done for a couple of months, in all just over 1 mile. Got home and he's barking at me to give him his treat ball................ :thumbup:

I don't understand this....................:cryin:


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

rona said:


> Aaaaaargh
> 
> This morning we went over to the field that yesterday he went for a walk of just 300yds, today he went across the field, glared at me when I turned for home, so I thought I'd just go with the flow as I do when he shortens a walk. He then crossed the next field, went around the wood back across both fields, a walk we haven't done for a couple of months, in all just over 1 mile. Got home and he's barking at me to give him his treat ball................ :thumbup:
> 
> I don't understand this....................:cryin:


Oh I understand it alright! I had this at varying intervals for all of my OAP's! One day she'd be a deaths door, the next out galloping after a fox or such like! I just took it a day at a time. In fact with Pat earlier in the year we had all resolved to ring the vet in the morning to arrange PTS- but the next day he was bouncing round the garden for his walk and that was a good 6 months before he actually passed away. They don't make it easy!

I'm so happy to read he was feeling better today.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> Oh I understand it alright! I had this at varying intervals for all of my OAP's! One day she'd be a deaths door, the next out galloping after a fox or such like! I just took it a day at a time. In fact with Pat earlier in the year we had all resolved to ring the vet in the morning to arrange PTS- but the next day he was bouncing round the garden for his walk and that was a good 6 months before he actually passed away. They don't make it easy!
> 
> I'm so happy to read he was feeling better today.


OH and I had thought a couple of weeks ago that we would be making that call within hours.

It's so hard. I must admit, the strain got to me yesterday. Not something that happens to me often


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

You have my full sympathy.

I was going through this, this time last year with Oscar. Just as you convince yourself it's time, they rally in a spectacular fashion and are fine for ages.

Only takes a single bad day to constantly question yourself about whether or not you're doing the right thing, or if is time.

I think you are right when you say that if you know for sure its time, then you've left it too late. Getting in before the suffering, but not before the quality has gone is so very, very difficult.

The stress and the worry often ruins, or at least creates a black cloud, over the good times that are left.

I guess bad days are normal though. I know Alfie will go for about 4 days on the trot, powering through, walking miles, and then on the fifth day, he'll act everyone of his years, and barely be able to walk a hundred metres. He gets days where he goes nowhere, and doesnt seem to want to. The following day he'll pester, and pester and pester.

Its like they need to recharge, and repair, and get their energy levels back up. A bit like a mobile phone.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

rona said:


> OH and I had thought a couple of weeks ago that we would be making that call within hours.
> 
> It's so hard. I must admit, the strain got to me yesterday. Not something that happens to me often


It's a really stressful thing, especially being so up and down. I'm not really a crier but I sobbed like a baby watching Sheeb and Pat run around after I was previously convinced their time was up.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I was so happy to read Alfie had another good day 
He is definitely working hard to keep you guessing 
It really must be so stressful for you though


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Glad to hear alfie has had a good day and wanted to do much more. My bella had good days and bad days and like you many a timr I thought this is it. I even got to the vets a few times but after a consultation we decided to wait and see for a bit and by the next day she could be up and entirely different again. So like others have said too they can be full of surprises in older age.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Just had the most awful night, the most stressed Alfie when I went out for an hour, his tum looks so droopy and he struggled on his afternoon walk so much that I went into the vets on the way home and booked him in for an x ray.

He's going in next Tuesday in the hope I can get some clarity on how long to hang on to him or if I should be letting him go.

I've canceled dog walks for tomorrow and luckily I have none for Monday anyway. So, apart from going out over the weekend for my own sanity (OH Alfie sits) I will be with him until I hand him to the vet.

I'm upping his Tramadol by a third in the hope that I can keep him more comfortable


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

rona said:


> Just had the most awful night, the most stressed Alfie when I went out for an hour, his tum looks so droopy and he struggled on his afternoon walk so much that I went into the vets on the way home and booked him in for an x ray.
> 
> He's going in next Tuesday in the hope I can get some clarity on how long to hang on to him or if I should be letting him go.
> 
> ...


So sorry to hear you've been having a bad time again 
I really hope the X-ray can give you some clarity 
Fingers crossed the Tramadol helps and you both have a better weekend.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Dear love him. Hope the medication works. How much easier it would all be if they could talk.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

So sorry Rona hope the xray will help to give you more info into whats going on.Thinking of you and Alfie.xx


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Poor lad, so sorry to hear you had a rough night. Hope you have a better one tonight.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Old man went for an xray this morning and is now back home. I haven't seen the xray or the vet because she was operating when I picked him up.

She left a message that she found no signs of a growth but his spleen is swollen.

That means, at the mo, I'm no farther forward. I would have thought if his death was imminent that his spleen would be enormous or another organ would be showing signs of metastasis.

It seems that virtually every website I look at thinks a swollen spleen means a tumour but there must be other reasons too?


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

If there is no sign of a growth thats good news Rona because that was what I thought it may be.When will you be able to chat to the vet to find out more?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

suewhite said:


> If there is no sign of a growth thats good news Rona because that was what I thought it may be.When will you be able to chat to the vet to find out more?


Not sure. She may phone when she's finished or I'll give her a call tomorrow


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

rona said:


> Old man went for an xray this morning and is now back home. I haven't seen the xray or the vet because she was operating when I picked him up.
> 
> She left a message that she found no signs of a growth but his spleen is swollen.
> 
> ...


In humans an enlarged spleen can be the result of liver cirrhosis, and blood flow problems around the liver. With something like cirrhosis the blood can't flow through the liver properly, so you get a build up of blood pressure to-and-from the liver (called portal hypertension). Your spleen enlarges as a sort of safety mechanism to kind of absorb the additional pressure to prevent damage to other organs. And it can also enlarge as the result of various infections. (At least, this is what I was told when I was waiting around for a third liver transplant.)

However you would've most likely noticed by now if liver issues were the cause of Alfie's problem?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lizz1155 said:


> In humans an enlarged spleen can be the result of liver cirrhosis, and blood flow problems around the liver. With something like cirrhosis the blood can't flow through the liver properly, so you get a build up of blood pressure to-and-from the liver (called portal hypertension). Your spleen enlarges as a sort of safety mechanism to kind of absorb the additional pressure to prevent damage to other organs. And it can also enlarge as the result of various infections. (At least, this is what I was told when I was waiting around for a third liver transplant.)
> 
> However you would've most likely noticed by now if liver issues were the cause of Alfie's problem?


I was under the impression that they were going to look at the liver too


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

An enlarged spleen can indicate infection I think. 

Good to hear that there's no growth


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Had a quick google and a fine needle aspiration is sometimes used to diagnose the spleen disorder. Not sure if it's a possibility for Alfie.

Most common causes are canine hepatitis, abdominal injury, inflammatory bowel disease, infectious disorder,cell tumours of the spleen, bacterial infection and other immune disorders.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

rona said:


> Old man went for an xray this morning and is now back home. I haven't seen the xray or the vet because she was operating when I picked him up.
> 
> She left a message that she found no signs of a growth but his spleen is swollen.
> 
> ...


Great news there doesn't seem to be any tumours Rona

There are other reasons Rona and quite a few of them too it seems, Ive managed to find these if you haven't seen them?

Other causes

Congestions of the spleen can occur from iatrogenic causes, which are those associated with administration of certain drugs (i.e. anesthetic agents or tranquilizers). Congestion can also occur due to increased blood pressure within the vasculature of the liver (known as portal hypertension), which can occur secondary to congestive heat failure among others. The spleen can over-react to particular conditions, resulting in a disease process known as hyperplastic, or reactive, splenomegaly. A spleen can become reactive when there is excessive stimulation of the immune system from conditions such as immune-mediated disease, bacterial infections, tick-borne diseases, and many more

There is the one the above come from and I have also found some others.

Spleen Disease (Hemangiosarcoma, Hematoma)

//COMMON CAUSES OF SPLENOMEGALY IN DOGS AND CATS: NONNEOPLASTIC DISEASES - Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine: Expert Consult

Hope that may be some help.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Went to see the vet on Friday and the xray..........

When I arrived, all Alfies past xrays were lined up to display.
I was shown several with very clear pictures of his spleen, a very healthy but naturally very large spleen.

On the most recent, you could hardly see the spleen because it has come loose and flipped over and only the end was showing on the xray. However, there was a very good view of a very healthy looking liver.

I can only assume that what the vet thought she could feel was an unusually naturally large spleen that had flipped over and therefore was not quite where it should have been :yesnod:

As it's now fairly unlikely that he has a growth, I have to accept that his problems mainly stem from his bone structure. I have asked the vet to prescribe steroids to try and alleviate the pain. 

Sorry to have worried some of you


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

All I can say is :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:such good news Alfie:001_wub:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just so glad that it isn't tumour as they thought. Never mind about us being worried, Im just so sorry you had to go through it.


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

rona said:


> Went to see the vet on Friday and the xray..........
> 
> When I arrived, all Alfies past xrays were lined up to display.
> I was shown several with very clear pictures of his spleen, a very healthy but naturally very large spleen.
> ...


Well, that's amazing news!!!
You've probably taken many years of your life with all this worry.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Wonderful news  SO happy for you. 

Hopefully the steroids will help him too.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

He could still have a big bleed of course, from the loose spleen but it's not as certain or imminent as it would have been had he had a growth.


Am just trying to sort out mats for the kitchen that will be difficult for him to dig up and therefore difficult to destroy also try to get enough to cover the slippery tiles and be warm enough for him to sleep on for the few hours I'm out of the house dog walking.
He won't go into his bed when I'm out


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## victoria171168 (Apr 8, 2013)

Have a look at splendid pets they do different size runners and mats at all different grades.heavy duty and machine washable.l have them here and they are still going strong five years on .
Also you can cut them to size


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

victoria171168 said:


> Have a look at splendid pets they do different size runners and mats at all different grades.heavy duty and machine washable.l have them here and they are still going strong five years on .
> Also you can cut them to size


They are the type I need but Nonnie put a link on to an Amazon site that sells them cheaper


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Just caught up with your good news.
I'm delighted for you and Alfie


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