# Feeding elderly laminitic with RAO



## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

My elderly mare , approx. 25 - 30 suffers from both chronic laminitis and RAO. As the years have gone by I have been finding it increasingly difficult to feed her whilst managing both conditions. 

I usually feed her on a combination of soaked ( approx. 6 hrs) , late cut or timothy hay, Alfa A lite plus fast fibre, micronized linseed, vit /min supplement and formula 4 feet. She has access to a small , almost grassless area, a woodchip "arena" and a stable left for her to go in or out as she desires. 

I am struggling to both keep condition on her and to manage her deteriorating breathing. I am wondering whether it might be feasible to feed some Marksway Timothy haylage. I have always believed that haylage is too rich for a laminitic but am becoming increasingly desperate. 

Any suggestions/ views welcome.

Edited to add that I have 3 acres of "rich" grazing. 95% of which is never grazed but regularly topped in order to manage.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

sorry you are having a hard time of it.

If she was younger maybe you would have more options.

I think at the age she reached and her health problems you may really struggle with her this coming winter. sorry


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Have you ever tried the horsehage for laminitics?
Perhaps speak with your vet, she will struggle if we have a harsh winter.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Have you had her tested for Cushings?

Certificate Form | Talk About Laminitis

This is a link to the certificate for the free cushings lab test, in case you need it.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> Have you ever tried the horsehage for laminitics?
> Perhaps speak with your vet, she will struggle if we have a harsh winter.


This is the one I was considering, the Marksway Timothy. I know that Marksway say that their High Fibre Horsehage is also suitable but I was thinking that the Timothy version might be a safer bet.

I discussed the suitability of feeding Horsehage with my vet last autumn and he said that he thought that she'd be o k so long as I introduced it slowly. The problem is me, I'm not a gambler, I am extremely wary of feeding anything which " might not " be suitable. I would never forgive myself if I fed it and she suffered catastrophic laminitis and had to be PTS. Unfortunately I'm getting desperate. It looks as though I'm going to have to chance it.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Elles said:


> Have you had her tested for Cushings?
> 
> Certificate Form | Talk About Laminitis
> 
> This is a link to the certificate for the free cushings lab test, in case you need it.


Thanks Elles. I have discussed the possibility that she might be Cushingoid with my vet . His opinion was that it was extremely unlikely as she does not show any of the signs or symptoms.

Its 10 years since she had full blown laminitis however she does occaisionaly get a tiny amount of red " flecking" around the white lines. I'm probably over cautious however I look at the situation as " one mistake could be fatal".

I suppose that I'm really looking for anecdotal reports of people with laminitics who feed haylage successfully. I probably didn't word my original post as I should have.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I feed my laminitic haylage in the winter, soaked hay in the summer. She hasn't had laminitis since I've had her, but did have it before. The haylage I feed is locally made and lower in sugar than most commercial haylage.

We believe she's IR and is fed a diet suitable for IR horses, with info from Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc. and supplements from Forageplus - Horse Supplements, Balanced Minerals and Vitamins ? Mineral Balancing, Forage Analysis, Forage Focussed Balancers and Intelligent Nutrition for Healthy Horses

IR horses tend to cope better with grazing in the Winter, so she is muzzled for turnout other than in Winter and her turnout is restricted more from Spring onwards, than it is in Winter.

The advice here for horses difficult to get weight on, but who are also prone to laminitis is using unmolassed, rinsed sugar beet and micronised linseed (also called flax), but continuing with soaked or steamed hay, preferably after hay analysis to help decide whether soaking is needed. It could be that you don't need to soak your hay for laminitis, just steam it for her RAO.

I've never fed mine the marksway timothy haylage, but if you can get an analysis (do marksway have one on their website?) you could ask about it on ecir?


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Elles said:


> I feed my laminitic haylage in the winter, soaked hay in the summer. She hasn't had laminitis since I've had her, but did have it before. The haylage I feed is locally made and lower in sugar than most commercial haylage.
> 
> We believe she's IR and is fed a diet suitable for IR horses, with info from Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc. and supplements from Forageplus - Horse Supplements, Balanced Minerals and Vitamins ? Mineral Balancing, Forage Analysis, Forage Focussed Balancers and Intelligent Nutrition for Healthy Horses
> 
> ...


Many thanks for those links. I will have a good look at them later.

Sadly my mare will not eat unmolassed sugar beet. ( strange horse ). It could be to do with the texture. She has a slight parrot mouth ,( as well as all of her other problems), and finds it difficult to eat anything without a firm texture. I already feed micronized linseed( it sticks to the damp Alfa A lite).

Marksway claim the same analysis for all of their Horsehages :- less than 5% sugar and 1 - 2% starch so theoretically all of them should be suitable. They do state that there will be some natural variation. I have, however. seen a report of someone having their Horsehage tested at 14% sugar.

I usually have my hay analysed by Dodson and Horrell . I've always managed to buy hay which is less than 10% sugar and starch anyway but still soak both to further reduce sugar and to help with her breathing. Sadly I don't have access to electricity on the land so am unable to steam.

Thanks again .


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

My horse has never had laminitis, but my Sister's Cob has.

He's a Shire Cross, 14hh 2" and probably predisposed as he has a heavy body on relatively short legs.

He has had laminitis three times, twice very severe.

His name is Jimmy. He is fed 50% hay and 50% haylage. He is turned out every day with my gelding, on a small paddock, quite meagre, but enough to keep the two of them fat enough. They're in overnight.

For feed, Jimmy has a handful of Hi-Fibre cubes, a handful of Alfa-A Light, a couple of carrots, half an apple and a rich tea biscuit, just because he loves them! He has that twice a day.

He also wears Heart Bar, (sorry if I've spelled that wrong), shoes. My Sister takes her advice for Jimmy's care from our Farrier, rather than the vet. Our Farrier is very experienced and has seen it all when it comes to feet! He believes the shoes are critical for Jimmy and he hasn't suffered an attack of laminitis now for four years. He is twenty years old.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Forester said:


> My elderly mare , approx. 25 - 30 suffers from both chronic laminitis and RAO. As the years have gone by I have been finding it increasingly difficult to feed her whilst managing both conditions.
> 
> I usually feed her on a combination of soaked ( approx. 6 hrs) , late cut or timothy hay, Alfa A lite plus fast fibre, micronized linseed, vit /min supplement and formula 4 feet. She has access to a small , almost grassless area, a woodchip "arena" and a stable left for her to go in or out as she desires.
> 
> ...


what are her teeth like? If she is parrot mouthed this in itself can cause a problem eating haylage.

I prefer to use hay for our golden oldies. High fibre nuts are really good too cos you can throw them on the ground for horses living out and a few will just keep them topped up and going so they don't balloon in spring after a mildish winter.

My farrier is infinitely more knowledgeable on horses than my vet...depends how good your vet is I suppose?

3 acres of rich grazing may be all the problem right there?


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Sweety said:


> My horse has never had laminitis, but my Sister's Cob has.
> 
> He's a Shire Cross, 14hh 2" and probably predisposed as he has a heavy body on relatively short legs.
> 
> ...


Jimmy sounds like a much loved family member. My mare is Clydesdale cross so very similar in build.

I *do *intend to discuss this with my farrier when he comes on Monday but wanted to get ideas from here beforehand.

Mabel is not shod in front only behind ( with standard fullered shoes).Its an unusual arrangement but it works for us. She has not been ridden for 12 years due to behavioural problems but I take her out in hand to give her some interest.



lilythepink said:


> what are her teeth like? If she is parrot mouthed this in itself can cause a problem eating haylage.
> 
> I prefer to use hay for our golden oldies. High fibre nuts are really good too cos you can throw them on the ground for horses living out and a few will just keep them topped up and going so they don't balloon in spring after a mildish winter.
> 
> ...


Her teeth are good considering her age and the shape of her mouth. She manages well with hay/ Alfa A lite but has difficulty with anything soft. I used to feed high fibre cubes but stopped as she was struggling to eat them. She seemed to find it difficult to keep them in her mouth.

I own 3 acres of grazing but she had never had access to more than about 1/4 acre max at any one time during the last 10 years. She currently has about 5m x 25m. She did have about double this but had blood in all 4 feet when the farrier came 5 weeks ago.

I usually feed approximately the same amount of hay all year , maybe slightly more in summer.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

My eldest mare ( 24 ) she is a Clydedale X too


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> My eldest mare ( 24 ) she is a Clydedale X too


If your mare is anything like mine she has the sweetest nature imaginable. Unfortunately my mare was abused before I had her . She was given to me after being rescued from the meat man. When she came to me she was petrified of being shut in, and was head-shy. She would also panic if I leant forward when riding her. Poor girl had obviously been beaten.
I rode her initially but had a bad accident with her and was off work for a year. Since then she has just been a pet.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Forester said:


> If your mare is anything like mine she has the sweetest nature imaginable. Unfortunately my mare was abused before I had her . She was given to me after being rescued from the meat man. When she came to me she was petrified of being shut in, and was head-shy. She would also panic if I leant forward when riding her. Poor girl had obviously been beaten.
> I rode her initially but had a bad accident with her and was off work for a year. Since then she has just been a pet.


Aww poor girl.
Yep, ours is so lovely. She is just like a big dog really, we've had her over ten years but 5 of them she has now been retired due to a old neck injury with a previous owner. I like just seeing het, grooming her etc. She was passed around from owner to owner until we got her when she will stay forever.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> Aww poor girl.
> Yep, ours is so lovely. She is just like a big dog really, we've had her over ten years but 5 of them she has now been retired due to a old neck injury with a previous owner. I like just seeing het, grooming her etc. She was passed around from owner to owner until we got her when she will stay forever.


Your girl is so lucky to be with you. 

It really upsets me when so many people discard their horses because they are no longer rideable. I promised the woman who gave Mabel to me that she would have a home for life. I could never part with her.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Forester said:


> Your girl is so lucky to be with you.
> 
> It really upsets me when so many people discard their horses because they are no longer rideable. I promised the woman who gave Mabel to me that she would have a home for life. I could never part with her.


I can't understand it either, we had our horse Roz pts last Feb, we'd had her 9 years and the whole time we had her she was unrideable. She was an ex riding school pony who was no longer ridden so options were free to home or put down. We took her, she had a great nine years with our other mare and she died gracefully 

We've since taken on an ex polo pony to be with Hollie and she can only be lightly ridden but she's had a year off to relax at the moment.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> I can't understand it either, we had our horse Roz pts last Feb, we'd had her 9 years and the whole time we had her she was unrideable. She was an ex riding school pony who was no longer ridden so options were free to home or put down. We took her, she had a great nine years with our other mare and she died gracefully
> 
> We've since taken on an ex polo pony to be with Hollie and she can only be lightly ridden but she's had a year off to relax at the moment.


Bless you. Its a shame that there aren't more people like you around.

I spoke to my farrier this morning who said that he doesn't know of anyone who has fed anything other than late cut hay to their laminitics. Its made me feel worse, I just don't know what to feed her. I have to do something other than the soaked hay as she is not coping with her breathing. :cryin:


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Forester said:


> Bless you. Its a shame that there aren't more people like you around.
> 
> I spoke to my farrier this morning who said that he doesn't know of anyone who has fed anything other than late cut hay to their laminitics. Its made me feel worse, I just don't know what to feed her. I have to do something other than the soaked hay as she is not coping with her breathing. :cryin:


Of course, you have to be careful that her laminitis doesn't flare up again, but her breathing is equally as important and it must be unpleasant for her if she's struggling to breath properly.

Could you try mixing the hay and haylage 50/50?

That's what we do with Jimmy.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

He's one farrier in one area. Ask the experts in laminitis etc instead?

Like I said, my mare had laminitis before I had her, I've had her over 3 years now, she's not had it since and I feed her haylage in the winter, with a carefully controlled diet that haylage is a part of.

If the soaked hay isn't helping though, I doubt changing her to haylage will help her breathing either. Have you had the vet back out?

It could be that spores from the woodchip arena are affecting her, or dust and spores from her paddock. She may need a change in medication for her breathing.

It may be that there's nothing extra you can do and with her advancing years, you've done all you can do. :crying:


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Forester said:


> Bless you. Its a shame that there aren't more people like you around.
> 
> I spoke to my farrier this morning who said that he doesn't know of anyone who has fed anything other than late cut hay to their laminitics. Its made me feel worse, I just don't know what to feed her. I have to do something other than the soaked hay as she is not coping with her breathing. :cryin:


Do you have her on any medication for her breathing?

I guess you just have to stop and think whether her quality of life is still ok? and what with winter approaching.

Horrible thought I know, but Roz who I mentioned, sadly she had dropped hocks in her hinds, an issue she had had since we owned her, she'd be fine up until a few weeks before she died. She was struggling to walk and the twinkle in her eyes had gone. We had her pts, very sad, but know she could gallop again made it all worth while.

Thinking of you.. x hope you manage to sort something.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Sweety said:


> Of course, you have to be careful that her laminitis doesn't flare up again, but her breathing is equally as important and it must be unpleasant for her if she's struggling to breath properly.
> 
> Could you try mixing the hay and haylage 50/50?
> 
> That's what we do with Jimmy.


I think that I'm going to try replacing a small proportion, perhaps 25%, of her hay with the Timothy haylage as well as trying to add some high fibre cubes again and moniter her closely. I previously gave up with High Fibre cubes as she was dropping them but its worth a try.



Elles said:


> He's one farrier in one area. Ask the experts in laminitis etc instead?
> 
> Like I said, my mare had laminitis before I had her, I've had her over 3 years now, she's not had it since and I feed her haylage in the winter, with a carefully controlled diet that haylage is a part of.
> 
> ...


She's not actually on any medication for her breathing. Until this year she has only ever had a problem when tree pollen levels are high or if she has had hay which has been unsoaked. Up to now I've always managed her successfully without medication, feeding Feedmark Clarity when the tree pollen levels are high. I don't really want her on steroids because of the laminitis risk. Until this year her coughing, wheeziness has only ever occurred in the spring but we are now on new territory.

Oh dear, It hadn't occurred to me about mould/spores from the woodchip area.
The area is right next to the stable. It has been there for about 7 or 8 years but has started to smell a little where the water from soaking the hay drains through the area. The slight smell is another reason why I wanted to be able to feed haylage instead of the soaked hay. I will have to move my hay soaking arrangement so that it doesn't drain into the woodchips.



Hanwombat said:


> Do you have her on any medication for her breathing?
> 
> I guess you just have to stop and think whether her quality of life is still ok? and what with winter approaching.
> 
> ...


Hanwombat. Until now I have had no question that her quality of life is still good. I just need to solve this problem in order to ensure that it stays good. The laminitis issue we have had under control for 10 years . If I felt that she was suffering distress with her breathing then I could not let her suffer. I take her out in hand for an hour or two most days and she obviously enjoys this. I would consider it extremely unfair to her to keep her in a confined area without stimulation.

I will attach a couple of photos of her taken 2 or 3 years ago.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Forester said:


> I think that I'm going to try replacing a small proportion, perhaps 25%, of her hay with the Timothy haylage as well as trying to add some high fibre cubes again and moniter her closely. I previously gave up with High Fibre cubes as she was dropping them but its worth a try.
> 
> She's not actually on any medication for her breathing. Until this year she has only ever had a problem when tree pollen levels are high or if she has had hay which has been unsoaked. Up to now I've always managed her successfully without medication, feeding Feedmark Clarity when the tree pollen levels are high. I don't really want her on steroids because of the laminitis risk. Until this year her coughing, wheeziness has only ever occurred in the spring but we are now on new territory.
> 
> ...


She is beautiful!

Here is my clyde girly :001_wub:


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> She is beautiful!
> 
> Here is my clyde girly :001_wub:


Oooh Hanwombat, She looks lovely. She has such a kind eye.

I just adore Clydies, their kind nature, their calm temperament and movement to die for. I've had so many people stand in disbelief when they saw how my mare moved. Her extended trot felt like poetry in motion.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Forester said:


> I think that I'm going to try replacing a small proportion, perhaps 25%, of her hay with the Timothy haylage as well as trying to add some high fibre cubes again and moniter her closely. I previously gave up with High Fibre cubes as she was dropping them but its worth a try.
> 
> She's not actually on any medication for her breathing. Until this year she has only ever had a problem when tree pollen levels are high or if she has had hay which has been unsoaked. Up to now I've always managed her successfully without medication, feeding Feedmark Clarity when the tree pollen levels are high. I don't really want her on steroids because of the laminitis risk. Until this year her coughing, wheeziness has only ever occurred in the spring but we are now on new territory.
> 
> ...


You could soften her Hi-Fibre cubes with a little warm water and allow to soak for a few minutes.

They turn soft and a little mushy and are then very easy for an oldie to eat.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Forester said:


> Oooh Hanwombat, She looks lovely. She has such a kind eye.
> 
> I just adore Clydies, their kind nature, their calm temperament and movement to die for. I've had so many people stand in disbelief when they saw how my mare moved. Her extended trot felt like poetry in motion.


Clydies do rule 

We feed her a high fibre diet - have you ever looked at the Fast Fibre horse feed from Allan and Page? You soak it and it turns to mush - she and my other horse love it! Its high in fibre and low in everything else.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Sweety said:


> You could soften her Hi-Fibre cubes with a little warm water and allow to soak for a few minutes.
> 
> They turn soft and a little mushy and are then very easy for an oldie to eat.





Hanwombat said:


> Clydies do rule
> 
> We feed her a high fibre diet - have you ever looked at the Fast Fibre horse feed from Allan and Page? You soak it and it turns to mush - she and my other horse love it! Its high in fibre and low in everything else.


Sadly " mush" seems to be a problem for her slight parrot mouth. She drops it out of the side of her mouth, although will then pick it up again. I do feed a little Fast Fibre at present but only a small quantity which sticks to the Alfa A lite. If I include much "mush" it ends up splattered over the stable floor. This happens even if she's just had her teeth done. 

She gets on best with food with a hay/alfalfa like texture.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Forester said:


> Sadly " mush" seems to be a problem for her slight parrot mouth. She drops it out of the side of her mouth, although will then pick it up again. I do feed a little Fast Fibre at present but only a small quantity which sticks to the Alfa A lite. If I include much "mush" it ends up splattered over the stable floor. This happens even if she's just had her teeth done.
> 
> She gets on best with food with a hay/alfalfa like texture.


If that's a good texture for her, how about a nice Chaff? They do some lovely apple or mint flavoured one.

If she's dropping food, you could try a small amount of molasses, stirred into her food, then it would tend to stick to her tongue instead of falling from her mouth.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Unfortunately flavoured chaffs usually have added molasses and molasses is a no no for laminitics.

It does sound as though you've managed her laminitis very well over the years, which I know isn't easy, but that it's her breathing that is now the problem.

Hope you find the answers you need quickly.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

our laminitic prone RDA LW cob x gets one and a half scoops happy hoof with laminitic herbal powder which we have to grate carrot onto to make it stick to as he doesn't particularly like it then we mix it together with water and he gets a bit of apple too. That's only when he's been working. He gets soaked hay (6 pound haynets are shared out between three of them) and high fibre nuts in a ball. They also get some honey chop to snack on during the night to prevent them chewing the wood. 
He gets 4 hours a day of grazing and this is reduced if the grass is particularly rich and has sweet roots. We won't entertain the idea of feeding haylage to him, he is about 22 at the moment.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I feel that anything containing molasses, or even molasses extract is a definite no. I definitely wouldn't be brave enough to try that. 

I am also frightened of giving her any grass. Her turnout part of the field doesn't honestly have a blade on it. She gets given literally a couple of square feet of fresh grass some days. If I let her have this daily then she tends to get the blood spotting in her feet.

I've bought some Spillers High Fibre cubes this afternoon to try to see whether she can eat them and I've moved the hay soaking " apparatus" away from the woodchip area. I'm also going to get 1 bag of the Marksway Timothy haylage later in the week and try just the tiniest amount added to her soaked hay. I may send a little of it off for analysis then I can get a better idea of how safe ( or otherwise ) it might be.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

I thought that I'd give an update on progress so far.

I've reintroduced Spillers high fibre cubes and she seems to be managing these as part of her twice daily " trug" feeds.
I'm also gradually introducing some Marksway Timothy Haylage. I've had it tested , 8% sugar, so rather more than Marksway claim . Its supposed to be 1-2% starch so it *may *be feasible. I started with just a few wisps and have been gradually increasing. I'm not going to be able to use the whole bag within a week so I'm going to have to throw some away but so far she has been o k. I started Tuesday and have progressed to giving 1 wedge, split into 2 lots, for the first time today. I am feeling for a digital pulse twice daily and am keeping a close eye on the consistency of her poo. If there is any sign of digestive disturbance at all I will reduce or stop the haylage.

I will let you know how she goes on.


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## Cascara (Jul 27, 2009)

Good luck. It sounds like you are doing everything you can. My lady laminitic reached the grand age of 33. We couldn't use woodchip, the dust and mould set off her breathing so she ended up on rubber mats with a paper poo area.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Cascara said:


> Good luck. It sounds like you are doing everything you can. My lady laminitic reached the grand age of 33. We couldn't use woodchip, the dust and mould set off her breathing so she ended up on rubber mats with a paper poo area.


Thanks Cascara. Your laminitic mare did well to get to 33. She was obviously extremely well cared for. My previous horse, also laminitic made 30 before falling and breaking his pelvis.

I am wondering whether the woodchip area is contributing to the breathing problems although the woodchips have been in situ for the last 6 or 7 years and her breathing has only deteriorated recently.
I do have rubber mats in the stable as well as an aubiose bed at one end( the stable is 16' by 14' ) though I keep her " free range". She can go in or out as she desires.

Her breathing has definitely improved since I made the changes and I think that she has also gained condition. I'm just keeping my fingers ,and everything else, crossed that she does not get laminitis.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

Well, the farrier has been today and I'm very pleased with how things are going. Her feet are fine, her breathing is much better and her condition has also improved noticeably. 

If anyone is interested I'm feeding per day :- approx. 5lb Marksway Timothy Haylage, 10lb timothy hay, 4lb Alfa A lite plus formula 4 feet, a multivitamin and approx. 3/4 mug micronized linseed. I'm also allowing her about an hours worth of fresh grazing per day. I dropped the Fast Fibre as she was struggling with the sloppy consistency. I have High Fibre cubes but have dropped these at present as I didn't want too much weight gain. 

Overall, I'm ecstatic with how things are turning out. I'm so glad that I took the plunge with the haylage. 

Thanks to all for your advice and encouragement. When I posted my question I was at my wits end to know what to do for her and was starting to question how much longer it would be fair to keep her going.


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## Forester (Dec 2, 2012)

I thought that I'd update this in the hope that it might be helpful to someone.

Well, for the last 3 months I've been feeding 100% timothy haylage ( no hay ) and she's been better than she's been for 10 years. She's keeping condition better, breathing better and her feet have been better than at any time since she first had laminitis. I now, would not wish to go back to feeding her hay, at all.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

that's great, brilliant news. Thanks for the update


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