# Breeder won't give me the puppy!



## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

I need advice urgently! I visited a litter three weeks ago and chose a pup, paid a deposit and got the breeder to sign a written contract to say that we had put a deposit on the puppy and would be collecting her when she is ready. The collection date is tomorrow but the breeder is saying to not bother going as the pups won't be there - they have decided they want to keep her because they believe she is of show quality. What can I do to stop this? The breeders signed a contract with us! They are linked to reputable breeders so should know that they shouldn't do this. Please Help!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I'd turn up at their door, and if they don't give you the puppy call the police.*


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

If you have paid a deposit, i believe you are legally in the right under the sale of goods act. Might be worth giving trading standards a ring.


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## sammypenny (Oct 19, 2012)

Try calling the non emergency police number or pop down to your local station with the contract then tell them your going to the house to pick it up tomorrow and are worried they may be aggressive and they may send a pcso with you.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2013)

I have no idea, apart from that I'm sure it's not legal if you have both signed a contract and you have paid a deposit. But I don't quite understand this....



Hello150 said:


> They are *linked* to reputable breeders so should know that they shouldn't do this. Please Help!


How are they LINKED to reputable breeders? Are they not reputable breeders themselves?


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

Their son is a reputable breeder but they are first time breeders so don't have a clue about much really! Thank you for the posts so far, It's such a stressful situation. Buying a puppy should be a great experience but it's turned out to be awful! Their son has said they should honour the contract but they are determined to keep the puppy.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Will they not give the deposit back?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Hve they offered to refund the deposit ? ( apologies if I've missed something ) If not, surely it amounts to theft, or taking money under false pretenses and definitely breaching the law.


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

They've said nothing about giving the deposit back but it's not the deposit we want :/ they've been sending us pictures and videos of her over the past week and ringing to say how much weight she's been putting on and we've been looking forward to getting her!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

It all sounds a bit dodgy to me. They cannot keep both the deposit and the pup - they have to either give you the deposit back or sell you the pup. The unfortunate part is that it will be their decision which to do, not yours.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I ws just asking about the deposit to get an idea about their intended actions - if they are planning to keep the puppy AND the deposit I would think it's cut and dried,taking money under false pretenses ! But - I'm not a lawyer.


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

Well, I think they've realised that they've made a big mistake by selling her. They've said nothing about the deposit and have been making excuses as to why we can't pick her up saying she's still on mum, then saying they want her to stay until she's a bit older even when we agreed a date... They did sign a contract that we brought with us which I'm hoping will help us in some way. I just know that they have grown attached to her and want to keep her now.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

How old is the pup?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

You need to ask about them giving you the deposit back.

If they don't want to sell you the puppy, that's their decision and they're not obliged to. You can just find another puppy to fall in love with. 

They need to give you the deposit back though. I would call and ask them how they are planning to return the deposit. I would record the call; if they say they won't give the deposit back then you will need to seek legal advice.


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

She is 7 weeks old, almost 8. They were telling us how they got their puppy at 6 weeks old so they're not against the idea of us getting her before 8 weeks old. We did sign a contract with them though which I thought would count for something. And I have been looking for a puppy for months, we've been strung along by three other breeders before this one so this is why the contract was made! We're sick of unreliable people who are incapable of telling the truth :/


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

You need to put something in writing/email to them immediately.

State that you are really upset and confused given that they have been phoning you and keeping you up to date re the pup. Also remind them that in the event they decline to sell you the pup they MUST legally return your deposit.

But:

It is possible there is a dodgy reason for their not letting the pup go - it may be unwell, they may realise there is a health issue, anything is possible.

It's very hard as you've fallen for the pup but personally I would run a mile from a breeder that could behave like this - get your deposit and find another breeder.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2013)

If I remember correctly 7 weeks is too young to be taken from mum.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> It's very hard as you've fallen for the pup but personally I would run a mile from a breeder that could behave like this - get your deposit and find another breeder.


I agree - I wouldn't want a puppy from a breeder who acted like this.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Tbh now there is a bad relationship between you...it is best all round to forget the pup and move on. Find another pup.

There is no point in pursuing this. 

As far the deposit...of course you are entitled to get it back. If they refuse then I would speak to Citizens Advice to find out your rights OR you could contact the Son. If he is reputable in the dog world then he wont want his name connected with fraud/deception. My guess though...they probably will give you your deposit back.

I have returned deposits before when I have found out something about the family that they kept from me or where I have decided the pup (after some weeks) isnt suitable for them after all.

I always put the pup first no matter what. Maybe they have just decided you are not suitable.

Can I ask the breed of the pup involved here?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> I agree - I wouldn't want a puppy from a breeder who acted like this.


Remember...you only have one side of the story.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

chichi said:


> Remember...you only have one side of the story.


Yes but really if the breeder has decided not to sell them the pup, they should already have assured the OP that the deposit will be returned.


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

7 weeks is meant to be the best age as they can be socialised by the new owner Finding Choosing Buying and Bringing Home a new Puppy Pup. 
I completely agree though, the relationship between us has been ruined but only the day before we were meant to collect her, up until then they were great. The only reason we can think of - after some Facebook research! is that they want to keep the puppy for themselves... I saw a picture of her on their profile saying she's going to make a great pet for them and the date was 4 days before... So they continued to ring us and send videos after they had decided they were keeping her...

She is a pug.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2013)

chichi said:


> Remember...you only have one side of the story.





Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Yes but really if the breeder has decided not to sell them the pup, they should already have assured the OP that the deposit will be returned.


I can't imagine a good reason why a breeder would refuse to sell a puppy AND not be forthcoming with returning their deposit.


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

I have submitted this on here for help - not to have people saying "Remember...you only have one side of the story" we have been nothing but truthful to the breeders and they have turned around the day before collection swearing and being aggressive on the phone saying we can't have her!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Hello150 said:


> I have submitted this on here for help - not to have people saying "Remember...you only have one side of the story" we have been nothing but truthful to the breeders and they have turned around the day before collection swearing and being aggressive on the phone saying we can't have her!


Don't blame you at all for being fed up - the breeder is behaving appallingly!

I urge you to email them right now so there is something in writing. You are entitled to your deposit back - I would not want a pup from a breeder that behaved this badly, though...Your dog is waiting for you out there


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

In the videos, we can hear them calling her - they have named her and become attached to her. If this breeder can turn around the day before collection after a deposit has been paid, what is stopping other breeders deciding to do this?


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

Thank you, It's nice to have support from positive people on here! I just really need to find a breeder who does not become attached!


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Hello150 said:


> Thank you, It's nice to have support from positive people on here! I just really need to find a breeder who does not become attached!


Or find one that is attached to a different pup in the litter to the one you want.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Have you actually asked the breeder about the deposit?

Tbh, i can sort of see why they may have changed their mind if they are first time breeders. It must be easy to become attached to a little life you have watched grow for the last 2 months, and very hard to let go of that.

If they havent actually refused you a refund, then everything about their intentions is just speculation.

If you ask for your deposit back, and then they refuse, then take matters further.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Hello150 said:


> I have submitted this on here for help - not to have people saying "Remember...you only have one side of the story" we have been nothing but truthful to the breeders and they have turned around the day before collection swearing and being aggressive on the phone saying we can't have her!


Sorry if you dont like my reply but its true. Breeders often have reasons for not selling a pup after agreeing to...the fact that this has happened to you before should tell you that.

As a breeder I have been in a position to change my mind before and the people involved have respected my decision (apart from one that got sh1tty about it but that just made me more determined not to let them have a pup).


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

Hello150 said:


> I have submitted this on here for help - not to have people saying "Remember...you only have one side of the story" we have been nothing but truthful to the breeders and they have turned around the day before collection swearing and being aggressive on the phone saying we can't have her!


If you have been strung along by other breeders maybe they been in touch with each other and think the breed (or this pup) is not right for you for some reason. Have you asked the other breeders why they would not sell you a pup? Have you asked for your deposit back?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Hello150 said:


> In the videos, we can hear them calling her - they have named her and become attached to her. If this breeder can turn around the day before collection after a deposit has been paid, what is stopping other breeders deciding to do this?


Nothing...so long as they return your deposit.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

of course i'm not taking sides, because as chichi said We Do Not Know The Whole Story! if they do not want to sell you the puppy, they Need to give the deposit back... but...
it would help to know what breed we are talking about. some breeds (like mine and chichis) need to be with the mother a lot longer- it doesn't matter what age the breeder got their dog at, if the pup isn't ready to go it isn't ready to go. i've had to hold on to peoples pups for an extra 2 weeks before (after the date they were due to collect) because they were too small to leave me without me and the owner having to worry ourselves sick about it.



Hello150 said:


> Well, I think they've realised that they've made a big mistake by selling her. They've said nothing about the deposit and have been making excuses as to why we can't pick her up saying she's still on mum, then saying they want her to stay until she's a bit older even when we agreed a date... They did sign a contract that we brought with us which I'm hoping will help us in some way. I just know that they have grown attached to her and want to keep her now.


if they haven't outright said they want t keep her why do you assume this is their intention?



Hello150 said:


> In the videos, we can hear them calling her - they have named her and become attached to her. If this breeder can turn around the day before collection after a deposit has been paid, what is stopping other breeders deciding to do this?


i name my puppies. i pick a theme and go with it- it makes keeping track a lot easier, and i don't like referring to pups as numbers. that doesn't mean i'm not going to sell a named pup though- but i have returned a few deposits because after booking the people turn out to be unsuitable (or complete "£$£^$%wits- buts thats another story!)

i think you need to talk all this over with the breeder and ask them their intentions outright. then talk to their son depending on their answer and ask him if he can speak to them if needs be...


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Yes but really if the breeder has decided not to sell them the pup, they should already have assured the OP that the deposit will be returned.


Yes but perhaps they havent had a chance...OP has already ststed they dont want deposit back....they want the pup.


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

We seem to have a knack of picking the best of the litter, then a few weeks down the line they realise! I can see how this could happen - but ultimately, these pups have been bred to be sold, if they felt a connection to them at 5 weeks old when we picked her, they should have said she was reserved. 
We found one in Scotland a few weeks ago, they described her to us and kept us holding on for two weeks, then the day before we were due to travel they said they had to be honest with us, she had a bad bite and would come with all endorsements under the sun which they first told us wouldn't apply! 

In terms of them changing their mind - they have been on the phone swearing and shouting saying they want to keep the puppy - by the age of 5 weeks old they hadn't even opened their mouths to check their bite and didn't have a clue how to hold her. If we didn't go and say she had a perfect bite and had a body shape which COULD be suitable for showing, we wouldn't be in this position - we should have kept our mouths shut which I now know!


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

We have tried talking to them but the mother seems emotionally unstable... As soon as she came on the phone she was swearing, when we first met her she was lovely. We have been in constant contact but they left it until the day before to tell us. She is a pug, as I said in a previous post.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Hello150 said:


> We seem to have a knack of picking the best of the litter, then a few weeks down the line they realise! I can see how this could happen - but ultimately, these pups have been bred to be sold, if they felt a connection to them at 5 weeks old when we picked her, they should have said she was reserved.
> We found one in Scotland a few weeks ago, they described her to us and kept us holding on for two weeks, then the day before we were due to travel they said they had to be honest with us, she had a bad bite and would come with all endorsements under the sun which they first told us wouldn't apply!
> 
> In terms of them changing their mind - they have been on the phone swearing and shouting saying they want to keep the puppy - by the age of 5 weeks old they hadn't even opened their mouths to check their bite and didn't have a clue how to hold her. If we didn't go and say she had a perfect bite and had a body shape which COULD be suitable for showing, we wouldn't be in this position - we should have kept our mouths shut which I now know!


Are you particularly looking for a show dog...dog to breed?

Nobody can tell where a pup is going conformation wise....bite wise at 5 weeks. Ive seen a bite go off on an older pup and Ive seen a slight bite issue correct by adulthood.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Aren't pug puppies supposed too stay with their mothers until 12 weeks of age, being as they are a toy breed?


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

We were first looking for a show dog and after a long time searching, decided a pet would be more suitable. We then came across an advert which said these pups could be of show quality - we went to look at them and chose our favourite one. 

We have tried to explain to the breeder that the bite could change - they honestly have no idea. We have a background in showing but they won't listen to us. Their son should know, he has shown his dogs -some did great as pups and as soon as they were adults they won nothing.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Hello150 said:


> We seem to have a knack of picking the best of the litter, then a few weeks down the line they realise! I can see how this could happen - but ultimately, these pups have been bred to be sold, if they felt a connection to them at 5 weeks old when we picked her, they should have said she was reserved.
> We found one in Scotland a few weeks ago, they described her to us and kept us holding on for two weeks, then the day before we were due to travel they said they had to be honest with us, she had a bad bite and would come with all endorsements under the sun which they first told us wouldn't apply!
> 
> In terms of them changing their mind - they have been on the phone swearing and shouting saying they want to keep the puppy - by the age of 5 weeks old they hadn't even opened their mouths to check their bite and didn't have a clue how to hold her. If we didn't go and say she had a perfect bite and had a body shape which COULD be suitable for showing, we wouldn't be in this position - we should have kept our mouths shut which I now know!


so are you looking for a show/breeding pup of the breed you won't name to us?
if that's the case then you shouldn't be booking 5 week old pups. and no, your wrong on the first bit- a heck of a lot of litters aren't born Just be be sold- usually the breeder will be wanting to keep a pup or two back.
personally, i'm wondering why you are dealing with breeders where you as the buyer are writing the contracts- that right there seems dodgy to me.

you seem to be very defensive and angery about this- which is maybe coming across the wrong way to the breeder. i know that i i was being spoken to in the tone i'm reading your posts about the breeders, i would be reluctant to send a pup to live for 15 years with a person who so quickly gets worked up ( not a critisism, an observation and opinion).

if i take everything you are saying as gospel truth, there wouldn't be a chance in hell i'd buy from a breeder like this- can't even hold a puppy? hasn't checked their mouths by 5 weeks- how on earth were they getting wormer into the pups then!?

you need to have a calm talk with the breeder- with their son if he is so reputable within the breed with showing and breeding.

eta- i was posting same time as you there, and missed the previous mention of pugs...

in that case, get your deposit, cut your losses and go for a breeder who knows what they're doing. if they got their breeding bitch at 6 weeks, being a toy breed that's 6 weeks earlie than i'd be happy with... goodness knows what you'll end up with healthwise!


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## tailtickle (Mar 19, 2012)

Hello150 said:


> I have submitted this on here for help - not to have people saying "Remember...you only have one side of the story" we have been nothing but truthful to the breeders *and they have turned around the day before collection swearing and being aggressive on the phone saying we can't have her!*


I was very surprised and shocked to read there had been _"swearing and aggression" _from the Breeder. Had the conversation become so heated that it escalated to that degree?! 
Had the Breeder offered the return of your deposit, but you refused, demanding the puppy? Did you instigate the swearing and aggression, because you were bitterly disappointed and upset. However, still no excuse for behaviour like that from either yourself or Breeder.

I imagine the deposit secured the puppy of your choice - providing the Breeder went ahead with selling the puppy. For whatever reason, the Breeder as decided not to. Therefore, although you are very sad by this, accept the return of your deposit, which I cannot see a reason for them to withhold.

tailtickle x


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## Hello150 (Jun 1, 2013)

I've said twice that she is a pug puppy.. I don't think you realise how stressful this is - we've been under the illusion for three weeks that we would be picking up this puppy, of course I'm stressed! I've asked about how I could go about getting the puppy we have signed a contract on and paid a deposit on. 

My dad has been messed around in the past my breeders who say theyve received no deposit money so he drew a contract up to not get screwed over again. We seem to have bad luck when it comes to finding nice people. 

if they were going to keep one back, they should have decided before advertising?

Please believe me, we have tried to have a calm talk


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

McKenzie said:


> I can't imagine a good reason why a breeder would refuse to sell a puppy AND not be forthcoming with returning their deposit.


I did - but it was an exceptional circumstance and it was to go some way towards reclaiming our expenses. The story is on here when it was actually happening, but in a nutshell we sold one of Evie's pups to what seemed like an ideal family, who had him one night and then tried to say he had bitten the daughter so badly that he had ripped her jeans and made her leg bleed, and that she was caging him so he couldn't hurt her any more and wanted her money back.

We went straight back to them - the journey took us much less time than we anticipated; we were an hour earlier than planned - and the pup, two kids, and their other dog were rolling around on the floor playing quite happily! NO mark on the girl's leg, and the ripped jeans were "in the wash" so I couldn't see them.

Well, there was no way I was going to leave the puppy there. We took him back and I gave her the money back, except for the deposit, which I explained to her was to cover the costs of two trips to Norwich and back (once to do a hosue check and deliver the pup, and once to fetch him back).

Happy to say that that we kept that puppy - it is in fact is my lovely Quinny who, as those of you on here who have met him can testify, just does not have a nasty bone in his body!

I don't want anyone to think I am doubting the poster, but as Chichi said, there are always two sides to every story. If I were you, Hello150, I would be asking the breeder for a full acount of why they changed their mind, and, of course, for your deposit back.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Hello150 said:


> I've said twice that she is a pug puppy.. I don't think you realise how stressful this is - we've been under the illusion for three weeks that we would be picking up this puppy, of course I'm stressed! I've asked about how I could go about getting the puppy we have signed a contract on and paid a deposit on.
> 
> My dad has been messed around in the past my breeders who say theyve received no deposit money so he drew a contract up to not get screwed over again. We seem to have bad luck when it comes to finding nice people.
> 
> ...


we all missed you saying first time she was a pug- as i said in my post- no need to get snippy.
yes, i know how stressful it is; i also know how stressful it is as a breeder choosing that a particular home and pup don't match and having to try and explain this.
point is, up until the moment of sale the pup is the breeders property, which you had booked. had you paid in full it would possibly be a different matter, but you have not.
you chose to deal with a breeder who had no contract in place, instead drafting your own. we have all been answering you, so know you posted asking how to get the pup- but it's not legally yours yet. if you have only been looking for a few months then thats Nothing- i've been looking for a standard poodle breeder for well over a year- and i'm not getting one for another 2-3 years (after finding a breeder who Does believe in hip scores!! :cursing: )
why not try to get to know a few breeders, so you know yourself that they are reputable, Then look into going on their waiting list for a pup from their next litter? or is it that you want a puppy Right Now?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Hello150 said:


> I've said twice that she is a pug puppy.. I don't think you realise how stressful this is - we've been under the illusion for three weeks that we would be picking up this puppy, of course I'm stressed! I've asked about how I could go about getting the puppy we have signed a contract on and paid a deposit on.
> 
> My dad has been messed around in the past my breeders who say theyve received no deposit money so he drew a contract up to not get screwed over again. We seem to have bad luck when it comes to finding nice people.
> 
> ...


Your Dad has no right drawing up a contract for somebody elses pup.

When you say they should have decided before advertising...you sound like youre talking about an item...not a living breathing puppy. The breeder has feelings too. Yes they should be more professional but you already know they are novice breeders...so you have to take this into account.

Was this pup cheap for its quality? Because there are a lot of puppies....breeders out there. Why you would want a pup from this person you have said is emotionally unstable and pretty clueless By your description....is beyond me.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

You don't own the pup the breeder does. The contract was drawn up by your dad not the breeder.

I would just cut your losses, and look for a reputable breeder and put your name down for a litter, and hope the breeder see's you as suitable,


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Hello150 said:


> Thank you, It's nice to have support from positive people on here! I just really need to find a breeder who does not become attached!


Now this worries me - the kind of breeder who would not be attached to the pups they breed is not likely to be a decent breeder. I name all my pups (although I will change that to their new name once they have been picked) and if I had the room and the money and the time I could have quite happily kept every pup I've bred. I am in touch with most people who have bought pups from me - there are some who don't want to keep in touch but that is their choice. Some dogs even come back for holidays when their owners are away - and I love seeing how they grow and develop. To me, that is all part of being a good breeder. I would rather have a breeder who is attached than one who is not.



Hello150 said:


> We seem to have a knack of picking the best of the litter, then a few weeks down the line they realise! I can see how this could happen - but ultimately, these pups have been bred to be sold, if they felt a connection to them at 5 weeks old when we picked her, they should have said she was reserved.


If you are buying from a show breeder it's quite common practice for you to be able to reserve a puppy, but not specify which one until the breeder has decided which one they want to keep. And this decision is unlikey to be made until the 7th or 8th week.



Hello150 said:


> We found one in Scotland a few weeks ago, they described her to us and kept us holding on for two weeks, then the day before we were due to travel they said they had to be honest with us, she had a bad bite and would come with all endorsements under the sun which they first told us wouldn't apply!


See, I see this as good. When you reserved the pup the bite would have been ok - but it is somethiing that alters quickly in a pup. A bad breeder would have sold you the pup anyway and not put any endorsements on. To tell you about it and to say she would only sell with endorsements on because of it is extremely good practice imo.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

If they want to keep the pup I think you have to accept that is their choice, however upsetting, but they should return the holding deposit. IFf you can't get civil reply via phone, could send a letter requesting it is refunded by x date via recorded delivery, though would best business like and leaving out any emotional venting.

What was in the contact you drew up, is it mainly a receipt of payment? I'm. sure the breeder could've refused to sign if they were unhappy with terms.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

It is very disappointing for you, of course it is. Unfortunately the only thing you can do now is tell them you want your deposit back. I would not want a pup from any breeder who swears and shouts, so you may have to start again with another breeder. Perhaps someone on here could recommend a good Pug breeder...?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> Sorry if you dont like my reply but its true. Breeders often have reasons for not selling a pup after agreeing to...the fact that this has happened to you before should tell you that.
> 
> As a breeder I have been in a position to change my mind before and the people involved have respected my decision (apart from one that got sh1tty about it but that just made me more determined not to let them have a pup).


This is what gets me and it is an appalling attitude when you consider we are trying to inform people about getting dogs from responsible breeders. If an agreement is made and a deposit is given it should not be possible, yet alone be morally justified, for the breeder to then say.. no, go away.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I wouldn't sell you a puppy from the sound of your attitude on here, with people who are trying to help!

If someone left a deposit with me and then I felt they weren't suitable for the puppy, or the puppy for them, I would absolutely apologise, explain my reasons to them and refund their deposit in full. I would under absolutely no circumstances give someone a puppy if I didn't feel right about it. The living animals come first, rather than someone's ego.

If I were keeping a puppy, I would explain what ages show prospects are graded at, and I wouldnt let people pick their puppies until after that. And if thy picked one I didn't think was suitable for them (for example higher drive), then I wouldn't let them have it. They could have their choice of suitable puppy, or go elsewhere. Don't like it? Then they can buy from someone who doesn't care instead


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I would contact them in writting email or recorded delivery letter stating quite clearly that if they do not sell you the pup then they have to have your deposit back and if they don't return the deposit then you will be seeking legal advise. Then I would start looking around maybe going to some local shows and get to know the breeders there. I waited 3 years for an italian greyhound puppy so do not be in a rush to choose a pup the right pup is out there for you somewere.


I would never choose which pup in a litter I am keeping at 5 weeks old they change so much between that age and 8 weeks when they are ready to leave mum. I name all my pups yes sometimes they are silly names but they are names to identify them. I have whippets and when they have litters of 8/9 pups you need a way to identify them we have had names such as Spot, Freckles and Splodge one bitch was even called Sumo because she was twice the size of the others at birth. If people give me a deposit it is on a pup not on a particulat one unless it is one I am definitley not intersed in keeping myself.

As for a pup having a bad bite one of my italians Mac at 5 weeks had a perfect mout at 9 weeks he failed the vet as being undershot. We still had him and by the time he was old enough to show his mouth had corrected itself again.


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## astro2011 (Dec 13, 2011)

Try talking to a solicitor; however, I think you may need to cut your losses, get your deposit back, and look for a good breeder.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> This is what gets me and it is an appalling attitude when you consider we are trying to inform people about getting dogs from responsible breeders. If an agreement is made and a deposit is given it should not be possible, yet alone be morally justified, for the breeder to then say.. no, go away.


If I find out (as I have done before) that the person buying the pup is actually a breeder (my pups are endorsed) after telling me they wanted a pet only...too right I will tell them to look elsewhere.

If I hear from a reliable source that their child is rough with the dog they currently have...too right I will so no.

Also when a pup was found to have an U hernia....I kept the pup as I wouldnt sell a pup with a problem that may need surgery...I would keep or give to family.

If you find that immoral....too bad....I am answerable to myself and my dogs/pups and nobody else. Nobody is forced to buy a pup from me....far from....and please dont imply I am irresponsible because I have returned deposits....you dont know me so dont judge


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Goblin said:


> This is what gets me and it is an appalling attitude when you consider we are trying to inform people about getting dogs from responsible breeders. If an agreement is made and a deposit is given it should not be possible, yet alone be morally justified, for the breeder to then say.. no, go away.


i disagree. whole-heartedly in fact.
i have changed my mind on a few reservers- one of whom picked the smallest pup in the litter, knowing she would be endorsed as breeding her would probably kill her. on a visit they let it slip that they would be breeding her to their parents apso, i reminded them that it is in the contract that she cannot be bred- their reply was 'well when she's mine you can do damn all about that can you?' so the deposit was returned and they were pretty much booted out the door. that pup is actually my teeny little bambi. i couldn't trust anyone else with her after that!
i stand by my decisions on returning deposits and telling people to clear off, the amount of people that think just because i let them see the litter means one of them is theirs is beyond a joke- even if they let their kids manhandle the pups and shove them with their feet!

but i tell people before they come to my home they are coming to meet the dogs and for me to have a chat to them- not to hand them a puppy there and then. 
even tohugh i haven't shown yet, i've still had pups booked before the litter is born, or when the pups are only a week old- and everyone who has done this is perfectly happy for me to pick my pup before choosing who will suit their home the best, and if there are two or so that would be a good match, they then get to chose their favorite.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> If I find out (as I have done before) that the person buying the pup is actually a breeder (my pups are endorsed) after telling me they wanted a pet only...too right I will tell them to look elsewhere.
> 
> If I hear from a reliable source that their child is rough with the dog they currently have...too right I will so no.
> 
> Also when a pup was found to have an U hernia....I kept the pup as I wouldn't sell a pup with a problem that may need surgery...I would keep or give to family.


So you do it for the well being and health of the puppy in question. Most people, when given that sort of reason could accept it. With the hernia, as a potential owner I would want to actually be involved regardless, possibly sharing costs.. Once the deposit is down and you get updates, you have an emotional attachment already growing with the dog. Health reasons isn't the same as saying "I like it, I'm going to keep it". Do you really condone that reasoning?

Until you decide people are acceptable the answer is simple. Don't say yes and don't take a deposit.

As an aside, I don't actually agree with endorsements anyway as when I have a dog, it is my responsibility. I wouldn't breed regardless but would stay clear of any breeder listing it as a contract term.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So you do it for the well being and health of the puppy in question. Most people, when given that sort of reason could accept it. With the hernia, as a potential owner I would want to actually be involved regardless, possibly sharing costs.. Once the deposit is down and you get updates, you have an emotional attachment already growing with the dog. Health reasons isn't the same as saying "I like it, I'm going to keep it". Do you really condone that reasoning?
> 
> Until you decide people are acceptable the answer is simple. Don't say yes and don't take a deposit.
> 
> *As an aside, I don't actually agree with endorsements anyway as when I have a dog, it is my responsibility. I wouldn't breed regardless but would stay clear of any breeder listing it as a contract term.*


what about the likes of my bambi though? breeding her would kill her- would you be ok with a breeder Not endorsing a small pup like that and knowing that if the owner breeds her it's byebye bambi? endorsments are there for a reason- the health and well being of that particular dog and the breed!

we do not know for CERTAIN that it is just a case of the breeder wanting the pup for themselves...

people lie when booking a pup, unless you do a police check on every enwuiry you can't know that you will not learn something down the line that means these people will end up being a bad home for Your pup.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

I think that when you view pups, and fall in love with one, it must be heartbreaking when, after being OKed, you find that you won't have that special pup after all. 

Especially if you have regular updates.

But both the breeder and buyer must also have some rights to change their mind - what if the pup is poorly, say?

In this case, a deposit has been paid for a particular pup - that must legally count for something, as does a written "contract" - but depends on the wording of course.

One assumes it was binding in both directions? So you would have had the pup even if it had fallen ill or been injured? Or would you have expected to cancel the contract?

I would suggest putting in writing (email) that you have reserved the pup and paid a deposit - give date). Thank them for the regular updates. Ask for when you will be able to pick up the pup. 

If they refuse in writing, ask, in writing, for the reason, and point out that they are breaking the contract.

Then seek advice.

I doubt that you will get this pup, but you should at least be given your deposit, and a big apology, back.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> the health and well being of that particular dog and the breed!


Breeders definition about well being of the breed can be different to mine. A bulldog with too long a snout for the breed... as an example. A colour not right (not talking ones relating to health issues such as merles).. Endorsements are infrequently about health issues not that I'd expect people to admit that.

Just to be clear, I also don't agree with breeders who specify dogs must be fed certain ways either which I have seen. Must be fed raw is one example 

If you don't like me as a potential dog owner, don't sell me a dog. If you do accept that I'll do the best I can for the dog. I would hope that we'll stay in communication, we'll keep you updated, you give us advice etc but don't dictate what we can and cannot do. You are not, at the end of the day, renting the dog to us.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Nobody wants to sell a puppy with doubts about the new owners and a horrible feeling it might end up swelling the rescue numbers further down the line. What the breeder thought was an ideal family on first encounter may have had second thoughts on subsequent contact. 

If you have a puppy which would make an ideal pet, but shows signs it might not perfectly conform to breed standard I can understand why an endorsement would be put on by the breeder. 

I have a story that's the opposite to the one the OP posted. One pup in Bess's litter really bonded with the breeder. It followed the breeder everywhere, and she decided to keep him. When he was 12 weeks old she got a phone call from an advert that was still running. The chap had lost his old Irish Setter due to old age shortly before. When he heard she had no pups left he broke down in tears. He worked for the forestry commission and was out and about in his land rover all day, and missed the company of his dog. When she heard his story, how desparate he was for another IS and what a great life the pup would have she made the hard decision to give up the puppy she wanted to keep. She hears about his progress regularly from the man, and yes, the pup's living a great life, out and about with his owner. 

But that's just another example of a breeder putting her pups welfare first.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Perhaps the op was insisting on wanting the puppy at 7 weeks and the breeder thought the puppy wasnt ready to go at that time
I dont breed dogs, but cats,and have had people pestering me to let them have a kitten well before its ready to leave, yes,even at 7 weeks
I have told them no of course, and yes i have even given deposits back if not happy about the buyer, they should realise that if something goes wrong they would be straight back onto the breeder saying the animal wasnt eating or some other problem,then expecting the breeder to do something about it.
We dont know all of this story, maybe the OP is refusing to take the deposit back,because he wants the pup
Not taking anyones side here, but as someone else said, we dont know all the details


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

Hello150 said:


> If you only went a pet, endorsements should not matter and they is usually an indicator of a good breeder who cares about her breed.
> 
> Maybe word has got round within the Pug community that you want a non-endorsed pup and that is what is worrying the breeders you have contacted


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

danielled said:


> If I remember correctly 7 weeks is too young to be taken from mum.


Not for a larger breed of dog, we had a dog from 7 weeks old.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Goblin said:


> As an aside, I don't actually agree with endorsements anyway as when I have a dog, it is my responsibility. I wouldn't breed regardless but would stay clear of any breeder listing it as a contract term.


But having an endorsement is a symbolic sign that that breeder wants to protect 1. the dogs they have breed, 2. any future pups breed from their line and 3. the breed in general. I would avoid a breeder who _didn't_ put endorsements on their puppies.

If you prove that you dog is a good example of the breed, with all the relevant and good health tests done, then a breeder can always lift the endorsement.

Really, it is completely standard for ethical breeders to have endorsements on their pups, so if you avoided all that did, by default you would be ruling out the most ethical dedicated breeders (in my opinion).


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hello150 said:


> I need advice urgently! I visited a litter three weeks ago and chose a pup, paid a deposit and got the breeder to sign a written contract to say that we had put a deposit on the puppy and would be collecting her when she is ready. The collection date is tomorrow but the breeder is saying to not bother going as the pups won't be there - they have decided they want to keep her because they believe she is of show quality. What can I do to stop this? The breeders signed a contract with us! They are linked to reputable breeders so should know that they shouldn't do this. Please Help!


If a contract was signed, you have a copy and a deposit has been handed over that you have a receipt for then you at least have legal proof.

Although it may be unlikely if the breeder is in the kennel club assured breeder
or accredited breeder scheme then there is a complaints procedure.

Policing the Kennel Club Assured Breeder Scheme - The Kennel Club

Otherwise someone who would be able to give you legal advice is on the links below, accredited breeder or not.

justice_for_dogs_charity

Doglaw - SPECIALIST ADVICE ON DOG LAW


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

I sure don't want to get into any debates about all this ....But surely if a person is trying hard to find good responsible breeder, researching and asking all questions possible is not plausible to expect the breeder to make sure of potential buyers before any monies are exchanged?.... in my mind it works both ways, if buyer isnt 100% sure you walk away, if the breeder is not 100% sure of the buyer they refuse the purchase of puppy?......I think that before any monies are paid there should be a hell of a lot of questions asked from both parties before it gets to that....JMO


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Goblin said:


> *Breeders definition about well being of the breed can be different to mine*. A bulldog with too long a snout for the breed... as an example. A colour not right (not talking ones relating to health issues such as merles).. Endorsements are infrequently about health issues not that I'd expect people to admit that.
> 
> Just to be clear, I also don't agree with breeders who specify dogs must be fed certain ways either which I have seen. Must be fed raw is one example
> 
> If you don't like me as a potential dog owner, don't sell me a dog. If you do accept that I'll do the best I can for the dog. I would hope that we'll stay in communication, we'll keep you updated, you give us advice etc but don't dictate what we can and cannot do. *You are not, at the end of the day, renting the dog to us*.


but surely every breeder should be looked at differently in respect to their ethics on breeding and the breed? not just saying 'endorsements are for the breeders benefit'? keeping bambi was in no way to our benefit as i was already keeping kuki from the litter- and knew bambi being so tiny may cause issues... all my pups are endorsed as they are to be sold as pets first and foremost and all i ask before lifting an endorsement is that the dog is a certain age, big enough, and has passed a through vetting (as we currently have no health tests  )
as for the 2nd bolded bit, thats true, but if you intend on killing a dog i've bred by breeding her, then you wouldn't get a dog- on contract or not! (not saying you personally- i know you wouldn't do that, but in general!)


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I would probably just ask for my deposit back and look for another breeder, one who was more reliable and experienced that I could trust. If they refuse to give you your deposit back then I would go to the police and seek advice.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I don't know how the law stands on this issue, but if I were you I would just ask for your deposit back (you are definitely entitled to have that!) and look for another pup.

Believe me, I know how exciting it is when you are all geared up for your baby and then something happens to prevent it, but you do not want the stress of dealing with these people. It may be that as they have sent you updates etc, and you have a receipt for the deposit, you are entitled to the puppy - so what? If they are intending (for whatever reason) to fight you every inch of the way, and you are already stressed, you could end up having a breakdown.

Find a good breeder and get put on their waiting list. One of the reasons that puppy farmers and BYBs make so much money is that people aren't prepared to wait for a puppy. They decide they want one, and they want it yesterday! Accept that these people do not have a professional attitude, take back your money and get on with searching for a suitable pup.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> all my pups are endorsed as they are to be sold as pets first and foremost and all i ask before lifting an endorsement is that the dog is a certain age, big enough, and has passed a through vetting (as we currently have no health tests  )


Doesn't matter if it's a "pet" or not. All dogs should be treated the same. Making the distinction makes it sound as though "pets" are second class.



> as for the 2nd bolded bit, thats true, but if you intend on killing a dog i've bred by breeding her, then you wouldn't get a dog- on contract or not!


You've just validated the key argument. If you are not happy with the prospective owner they shouldn't get a dog. This should be investigated and decided before any money, including a deposit is handed over. When it comes down to it, endorsements cannot be enforced, especially if contact between breeder and owner is lost.



> (not saying you personally- i know you wouldn't do that, but in general!)


Not a problem, not taking it personally. I doubt if we would ever get another puppy unless it's a Chinese Chongqing Dog which is pure fantasy at the moment. We'll always tend to look at rescues.

To be honest, when getting a dog from a breeder I would expect far more checks and meetings than we have had getting rescue dogs. Once the dog is "ours" it should be ours without preconditions.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Breeders definition about well being of the breed can be different to mine. A bulldog with too long a snout for the breed... as an example. A colour not right (not talking ones relating to health issues such as merles).. Endorsements are infrequently about health issues not that I'd expect people to admit that.
> 
> Just to be clear, I also don't agree with breeders who specify dogs must be fed certain ways either which I have seen. Must be fed raw is one example
> 
> If you don't like me as a potential dog owner, don't sell me a dog. If you do accept that I'll do the best I can for the dog. I would hope that we'll stay in communication, we'll keep you updated, you give us advice etc but don't dictate what we can and cannot do. You are not, at the end of the day, renting the dog to us.


Interesting you say that. I too have seen one or two breeders insisting that their pups be raw fed for the rest of their lives. I have never understood how a breeder can insist on that because surely once a person has bought the pup, the dog is theirs and they can feed it what they like?

I do understand - and applaud - the breeders that are attached to their litters and really care what they are fed by their new owners, don't get me wrong.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> why not try to get to know a few breeders, so you know yourself that they are reputable, Then look into going on their waiting list for a pup from their next litter? or is it that you want a puppy Right Now?


What is wrong with wanting a puppy when the time is right - and if that is right now then going on a waiting list for years is a daft idea. If you are wanting certain breeding or a certain breeder or are wanting a dog in the next few years by all means go on a waiting list but if you are wanting a pup to share your life of course you want one within a short time scale.



kodakkuki said:


> what about the likes of my bambi though? breeding her would kill her- would you be ok with a breeder Not endorsing a small pup like that and knowing that if the owner breeds her it's byebye bambi? endorsments are there for a reason- the health and well being of that particular dog and the breed!
> .


endorsing a pup does not stop it being bred from - there are probably far more unregistered and cross breed litters than registered litters.



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Interesting you say that. I too have seen one or two breeders insisting that their pups be raw fed for the rest of their lives. I have never understood how a breeder can insist on that because surely once a person has bought the pup, the dog is theirs and they can feed it what they like?
> 
> I do understand - and applaud - the breeders that are attached to their litters and really care what they are fed by their new owners, don't get me wrong.


How ridiculous. I would imagine most prospective owners would just nod their head and feed exactly what they wanted to.
I really wonder how some breeders manage to sell any pups. I buy a pup to keep in the way that suits me, not how it suits the breeder.


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## Bellaboo1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Interesting you say that. I too have seen one or two breeders insisting that their pups be raw fed for the rest of their lives. I have never understood how a breeder can insist on that because surely once a person has bought the pup, the dog is theirs and they can feed it what they like?
> 
> I do understand - and applaud - the breeders that are attached to their litters and really care what they are fed by their new owners, don't get me wrong.


How would an endorsement like that be enforcable anyway


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I would always endorse any puppies I sell, show or pet. Endorsements would only be lifted upon completion of the relevant health tests and the dog being proved worthy of being bred (by doing well in the show ring and/or sports) and this is the contract I have accepted with my own show pups. 

You are right in saying that you should only sell puppies to people who seem like decent people and who will do right by the individual dog and by the breed, but unless you known all your puppy buyers for years and they have a good reputation within the breed, how can you really know? I would hope that my endorsed puppies would deter people who just want to make some cash by breeding and hopefully end up in the hands of people who care. I am a pretty good judge of person, but in the two or three times you might meet someone people can easily deceive. All I could do would be to try and do the best I can.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I'd be very cautious of breeders who don't endorse their puppies, I named all our pups and still was undecided which of the two girls I was going to keep right up until they were 7 weeks old. 

I think there's nothing wrong with the breeder keeping the pup if it's show quality however the deposit should be given back. 

If you want a show pup you may have to wait a few litters as often breeders keep the show pup for themselves or the litter may not have any show potential pups. 

Make contact with the breeder requesting the deposit for the puppy back, I'm sure they won't want you to "name and shame" them for keeping the deposit.


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## WhatWouldSidDo (Nov 17, 2012)

Get your deposit back, wish them well, and stop stressing about it, life's to short.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> I think there's nothing wrong with the breeder keeping the pup if it's show quality however the deposit should be given back.


In this case don't "sell" the puppies until you've made that decision.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Goblin said:


> In this case don't "sell" the puppies until you've made that decision.


I do agree with this.

Am I right in thinking that some breeders will allow people to reserve a pup but not a specific pup...? That would seem somewhat fairer, if the breeder knows there is a chance they may want to keep a pup for showing etc.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Hello150 said:


> I need advice urgently! I visited a litter three weeks ago and chose a pup, paid a deposit and got the breeder to sign a written contract to say that we had put a deposit on the puppy and would be collecting her when she is ready. The collection date is tomorrow but the breeder is saying to not bother going as the pups won't be there - they have decided they want to keep her because they believe she is of show quality. What can I do to stop this? The breeders signed a contract with us! They are linked to reputable breeders so should know that they shouldn't do this. Please Help!


I have not read the whole thread, however legally that puppy is yours.. If you want to take the breeder down the legal route that is up to you, however I would ask for my deposit back and walk away...After all would you want any further dealings with this breeder?

As breeders we NEVER take a deposit and NEVER will. Once that money has passed hands the breeder, cant back out - a breeder that is breeding to keep a puppy to show, will always want first pick. - Puppies change so much over time, as will a breeders opinion on that pup. People dont view our puppies till around 7 weeks, around this time we are pretty sure what puppy we are keeping.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> In this case don't "sell" the puppies until you've made that decision.


Circumstances change...people lie or omit the truth (same thing really)...health issues can pop up...there are a hundred different reasons a breeder may change their mind. So long as they do it as painlessly as possible .. return deposit and maybe even offer help in finding an alternative dog..it is the breeders right to end the contract imo.

As for those that lie about wanting a pet (when really they want a brood bitch) I couldnt care less...lies will always out if you search enough. They shouldnt have been dishonest in the first place.

There have been some amazing posts from breeders and those considering breeding....Im off now on a positive repping spree:smilewinkgrin: Kodakukki....you and I are so alike in our thinking re breeding...it could be me writing your posts


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Goblin said:


> As an aside, I don't actually agree with endorsements anyway as when I have a dog, it is my responsibility. I wouldn't breed regardless but would stay clear of any breeder listing it as a contract term.


Over in the UK you would most defo be buying from the wrong breeder then...

If you are not going to breed, then it matters not that there are breeding endorsements on a dog?
Although endorsements do not stop people breeding, it is something extra that a breeder can place on a puppy, to try and protect that dog, the breed and their lines.

I mean what about dogs that are being sold with a genetic status of carrier from a certain DNA test. Would a breeder want that dog bred from, and possibly have affected dogs produced and then registered. - although this could still happen regardless, hopefully folk will walk away when endorsements are stated if they want to breed.

It gets harder, and harder for breeders to trust potential owners.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I mean what about dogs that are being sold with a genetic status of carrier from a certain DNA test.


How many DNA tests are carried out before a dog is 8 weeks old? We are after all pushing that breeders health test parents and wouldn't breed "carriers" in the first place unless there were specific reasons, such as gene pool diversity. In this case owners should be informed as such.

Are you really saying most endorsements are done for health reasons? I personally don't believe that.

I wonder.. have endorsements ever been legally challenged?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Read a few comments on here about breeders changing their minds after finding something out about the potential owners, well not being funny but if you wish to take a deposit then dont do so UNTIL you are fully happy with that person... common sense I would have thought.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I would take the deposit back and find another breeder. 

It worries me that some view endorsements as a negative thing when they are there to protect pups you've bred. They are free to remove, so as long as the contract stipulates the conditions they will be removed under. All Tau's pups were endorsed, including Zasa. 

Also, when I was deciding which pup to keep, it wasn't until the sixth, seventh week that I really knew Zasa had chosen me, and did tell Lola's owners they could end up with a chocolate or a black, depending which way my decision went. They were happy with either. 

As an aside, when I first bought a puppy, I agreed to buy a spaniel pup, didn't pay a deposit, but bought in all the puppy paraphernalia, when the breeders turned awkward and eventually told me they'd changed their minds as they wanted to keep him to work. I then found out they'd sold him to a couple down the road so they could see him every day!! 

I then went on to find another pup and learnt about health testing etc, and ended up with Indie, who is a one of a kind, absolutely stunning character, and my life has been so much the richer for having her. The right pup might not be the one you initially want when buying a specific breed, but in my experience, I've always ended up with the right characters at the right time, so hang on in there and the right litter/breeder will come along. I'm still in touch with all the owners of Tau's pups, in fact I saw two of the pups today, and you can't (I hope) put a price on having that sort of relationship with the breeder.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I do agree with this.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that some breeders will allow people to reserve a pup but not a specific pup...? That would seem somewhat fairer, if the breeder knows there is a chance they may want to keep a pup for showing etc.


I agree too,

Infact with the litter I had, I knew I wanted to keep 1 of the blue bitches so I informed the lady on my waiting list that I wasn't sure which I wanted but she was happy to put a deposit down for whichever one I decided to sell as she liked both girls anyway.

I knew from quite a young age that April would be the likely one I'd keep but didn't make it final until they were 7 weeks old.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Goblin said:


> How many DNA tests are carried out before a dog is 8 weeks old? We are after all pushing that breeders health test parents and wouldn't breed "carriers" in the first place unless there were specific reasons, such as gene pool diversity. In this case owners should be informed as such.
> 
> Are you really saying most endorsements are done for health reasons? I personally don't believe that.
> 
> I wonder.. have endorsements ever been legally challenged?


not many, BUT there are still dogs being bred that are themselves carriers, put to clear.. Still producing carriers. Therefore there are still carriers to be homed.

I for one dont advise breeders to not test carriers, after all put to a clear dog you can not produce anything worse than a carrier. when a test is first established for a breed no matter the number of dogs within a breed, dogs with a 'carrier' status will still have been used.

I dont see any comment in my post saying that all endorsements are for health reasons, I merely used just ONE example.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Infact with the litter I had, I knew I wanted to keep 1 of the blue bitches so I informed the lady on my waiting list that I wasn't sure which I wanted but she was happy to put a deposit down for whichever one I decided to sell as she liked both girls anyway.


Which is fine. If however you "sell" a specific puppy, provide progress reports and let the person become attached to their dog you shouldn't refuse them.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Read a few comments on here about breeders changing their minds after finding something out about the potential owners, will not being funny but if you wish to take a deposit then dont so so UNTIL you are fully happy with that person... common sense I would have thought.


Not our fault if people lie....if someone lies they deserve all they get.

Incidentally most people WANT to leave a deposit...I have often held pups with no deposit.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

chichi said:


> Not our fault if people lie....if someone lies they deserve all they get.
> 
> Incidentally most people WANT to leave a deposit...I have often held pups with no deposit.


Im fully aware that people lie believe me. But then as breeders we should all know that you cant take people by face value alone.

I wouldnt take a deposit for a number of reasons, this doesnt mean I would not reserve a puppy for someone just means that I am free to make the best decision for my puppy, If my mind is to change for what ever reason. when that money passes hands you have no freedom to make any decision you are in a legally binding contract and thats that.

I dont know why any breeder would take a deposit to be fair. Like you said people lie, and things come to light


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## Picklehoffer (May 25, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I'd turn up at their door, and if they don't give you the puppy call the police.*


No disrespect to Janice here, but this is most certainly not a police matter. The police would only attend to prevent a breach of the peace (probably by appointment), but if you're the one carrying on, you're the one that will be removed (likely under arrest).

I understand how upset you are at these unscrupulous breeders, but please don't drop yourself in the brown stuff over it.

Without seeing the contract you've both signed, I couldn't comment on how to proceed, but if you want to stick to your guns and try to get the puppy, my best advice would be to take the contract to a local solicitor for proper legal advice.

I really do wish you luck because I can see how obviously distressed you are over the matter, and also how much you want the pup.

You're more than welcome to PM me if you want to.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Which is fine. If however you "sell" a specific puppy, provide progress reports and let the person become attached to their dog you shouldn't refuse them.


I'm not disagreeing with you, I think what the breeder's done is vile. However unfortunately the buyer has more chance of getting her deposit back than convincing the breeder to part with the puppy.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Firedog said:


> Aren't pug puppies supposed too stay with their mothers until 12 weeks of age, being as they are a toy breed?


not all breeders keep till their 12 weeks. - we do as we do both puppy vacc's, and microchip. It all depends, a toy breed usually goes between 8 and 10 weeks.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I tend to take people at face value....if they have lied....whats to feel guilty about returning deposit....

If a health issue cropped up...deposit or not...the pup would stay in the family ...deposit would be returned....


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

chichi said:


> I tend to take people at face value....if they have lied....whats to feel guilty about returning deposit....
> 
> If a health issue cropped up...deposit or not...the pup would stay in the family ...deposit would be returned....


If you wish to take people on face value alone thats down to you. - But then I would have thought you wouldnt give a potential owner the chance to lie, as you would have spoke lengthy with them, looked into them before taking their cash? - I know it can still happen, but as the breeder of the puppy you would want to do your upmost in making sure that you have sussed these people out to your best ability?

Thats fine that you feel if something was to crop up, that you could just return the deposit and say the puppy is staying here. Im afraid it doesnt work like that.
Dogs sadly arent seen as living things in a court of law, and you as the breeder in that situation would be in the wrong.. (JUST FOR CARING)!


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## Charity (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm afraid that this is a civil matter between you and the breeder so I would suggest you contact your Trading Standards (I think its through Citizens Advice Bureau nowadays) for advice, no point paying a solicitor. Its a difficult situation if they adamantly refuse to hand the dog over to you and if you only want the dog or, if you decide to get your money back and they won't pay ball, its going to end up in claims court. In legal terms, under consumer law, a dog is no different than a washing machine or a car, its "goods". I appreciate you want the dog but, depending on how far you are prepared to go with this, you might do better to cut your losses and go for the deposit back and, do as has been suggested, look for a more reputable breeder elsewhere. What happens if, should you be able to obtain the dog, there is a health issue or similar? You are probably going to have more problems with these people.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> If you wish to take people on face value alone thats down to you. - But then I would have thought you wouldnt give a potential owner the chance to lie, as you would have spoke lengthy with them, looked into them before taking their cash? - I know it can still happen, but as the breeder of the puppy you would want to do your upmost in making sure that you have sussed these people out to your best ability?
> 
> Thats fine that you feel if something was to crop up, that you could just return the deposit and say the puppy is staying here. Im afraid it doesnt work like that.
> Dogs sadly arent seen as living things in a court of law, and you as the breeder in that situation would be in the wrong.. (JUST FOR CARING)!


I do appreciate your point but you can speak for hours....emails galore....then when the viewing is taking place....I do all the listening and those Ive found out to lie have given themselves away Its just took some digging to reveal the truth. I have had people try to buy a pup for someone else that Ive turned down....fortunately Facebook...Twitter saved the day:wink5:

I just want to say that I have NEVER just let somebody down because I decided to keep the pup.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Hello150 said:


> we've been strung along by three other breeders before this one so this is why the contract was made! We're sick of unreliable people who are incapable of telling the truth :/


Where are you finding your breeders?

Are they members of their breed club etc?

If it's their first litter (and everyone has to start somewhere I guess) then I guess it's harder to find info on them but have you searched online to find details of the parents (as I'm assuming from what you've said they were shown) and where they were placed etc?

With any breed, and especially those prone to health conditions, it's really important to go to a well respected breeder - have both parents been health tested?


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Lilylass said:


> *Where are you finding your breeders?*
> 
> Are they members of their breed club etc?
> 
> If it's their first litter (and everyone has to start somewhere I guess) then I guess it's harder to find info on them but have you searched online to find details of the parents (as I'm assuming from what you've said they were shown) and where they were placed etc?


This crossed my mind too. Yes, it's not always easy to find a good breeder, but to be mucked about by three in a row?? To me that suggests that you may be going about finding your breeders in the wrong way. Are you finding the breeders on free ads?

It must be absolutely heartbreaking to have them tell you that you cannot have the pup. I was paranoid that my breeder would ring and tell me that she'd changed her mind on letting me have one of pups right up until I had Maggie in my arms and was driving home! I have heard of breeders changing their mind.

Personally, and I know many good breeders do take deposits, but I prefer breeders that do not take any. Why? Because, as my breeder put it, she didn't want to take a deposit because she wanted to make sure that if I had any doubts I would pull out, rather than following through with something I suddenly was not sure on because I didn't want to lose the money.

I don't think the breeder should have told you that you could have a specific puppy if there was any chance that they would decide that they wanted her for themselves. Again, my breeder was upfront with me and said that she wouldn't choose her puppy until 6-7 weeks old, so until then I would not know which one was mine.

I think the sad reality is, if they have decided to keep the puppy, then there isn't a lot you can do about it  However, you are entirely entitled to your deposit back. As others have said, I would cut your loses, ask for your deposit back and contact the breed club for an recommend breeder.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I do agree with this.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that some breeders will allow people to reserve a pup but not a specific pup...? That would seem somewhat fairer, if the breeder knows there is a chance they may want to keep a pup for showing etc.


That's what usually happens with show breeders in my experience, but the difference between that and what the OP is talking about is that everyone who has put a deposit down is told this before they put the deposit down, and then it is their choice whether or not to accept those terms.

Another thing that happens is that the show breeder may not want to keep a pup for themsleves, but may have another person who has been promised "pick of litter". I've been in the position of having to wait for someone else to choose from a litter, but I have also been the person who has been promised pick of litter and others have had to wait.



Devil-Dogz said:


> If you wish to take people on face value alone thats down to you. - But then I would have thought you wouldnt give a potential owner the chance to lie, as you would have spoke lengthy with them, looked into them before taking their cash? - I know it can still happen, but as the breeder of the puppy you would want to do your upmost in making sure that you have sussed these people out to your best ability?


But sometimes DD you can be presented with someone who seems ideal and ticks all the boxes, and then it still doesn't work out. Look at what happened with us and Quinny - the family already had a dog; they were knowledgeable about border collies and knew what to expect from a border collie pup, they had been to Crufts and spoken to people on the DD stand to find out about them (this was coroborated by the person on the stand who could remember them because of their interest in agility and the YKC), the young boy had joined the YKC and was planning on doing agility (they knew they would have to wait until the pup was 18 months without me having to tell them), they came to visit twice (all the way from Norwich) and the children were comfortable and happy around the dogs, and they asked me if I would keep the pup an extra couple of weeks because they were going on holiday the week after he would have gone to live with them and they didn't think it fair to take a new pup on holiday or leave it with friends. When I took the pup and did a home check, the garden was secure, their 2 year old dog was happy, looked healthy and well-cared for, and they had prepared well for the pup with toys, bowls, basket, and indoor cage.

They were the last people I would have expected to ring up the next day and say they didn't want the pup. I still think they weer trying to pull some sort of scam - but whatever it was it didn't work because they got their money back - minus the deposit (which didn't even cover our expenses) and we took the pup home.

Sometimes even the most vigilant of us can be deceived.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> That's what usually happens with show breeders in my experience, *but the difference between that and what the OP is talking about is that everyone who has put a deposit down is told this before they put the deposit down, and then it is their choice whether or not to accept those terms.
> *
> Another thing that happens is that the show breeder may not want to keep a pup for themsleves, but may have another person who has been promised "pick of litter". I've been in the position of having to wait for someone else to choose from a litter, but I have also been the person who has been promised pick of litter and others have had to wait.
> 
> ...


Yes I realise that 

It's interesting how different breeders can be in their approach. A few years back I went to view a litter of Lab pups. The sire was a well known dog, well respected kennel etc. Dam was a pet.

The litter was at the home of the dam's owner, unsurprisingly. This woman didn't give a damn who got the pups - she didn't ask me a single question and couldn't get the deposit from me fast enough - and the pups were only 3 weeks old. I had to choose a specific pup at that time.

Ultimately I walked away because the pup clearly disliked being handled and interacting with people and over three different visits, I got more and more uneasy. When I phoned up to explain to the woman that I couldn't go ahead, the only thing she had to say was: 'You can't have your deposit back. It's non refundable.'

Fortunately most if not all of the breeders here on PF seem so much more caring and involved with their pups and potential owners


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## Lesleyespringers (Jan 23, 2013)

If it was me I would get my deposit back and do a load of research and email lots of breeders, ask if you can be placed on their waiting list.

Not all breeders are bad, I lost my first English springer spaniel at the age of 4 to epilepsy in December 2012, I was truly devastated and it still hurts  

However not long after I lost Olli I decided to look to the future and started my search for the perfect breeder, not the type I got Olli from (my own fault) I found the best breeders ever, they are honest, helpful and always their to answers any concerns.

I now have my little lad (he's nearly 7 months now) who really has helped get over the loss of my special boy olli. Sometimes it is worth the wait and the research to find the best breeder for the breed you want 

I hope one day you find the right breeder


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2013)

What I can't for the life of me understand is why the OP hasn't just walked away with their deposit, bit silly refusing it! Such in life things happen and things don't always go the way we want them to.

If the OP were initially after a show quality puppy, what's changed? People in the show world simply wouldn't do something like this, they have their reputation at stake so to simply tarr all breeders with the same brush, is simply unfair. Not all breeders are out to rip people off.

Reputation in the show worlds means a lot, it takes years to build up and 10 seconds to shatter should anyone do something wrong, mud sticks unfortunately.

Whilst it's wholly unfair OP didn't get to bring their chosen puppy home I think the attitude stinks where both parties are concerned, seems seeking out a puppy without endorsements in place was more important than seeing the bigger picture and whilst the breeder is being unfair with-holding the deposit I can't help but wonder if there is more to this story? 

Breeders do totally have the right to change their minds and back out at any time, possession is 9/10ths of the law and whilst the OP does see this as their puppy, in reality and legally, the puppy is not. No court in the land would force the breeder to hand this puppy over when the deposit was offered back but not accepted. OP would spend thousands challenging this and may end up with nothing at all but an emptied out bank account feeding legal eagles!

OP just do yourself a favour, accept the deposit back gratefully and gracefully and put this one down to experience. It's all a learning curve.

Mum fell out with her dogs breeder very early on, just not in this way, was over something very stupid (miscommunication on both parties parts) thankfully they overcome it, both realised each were nice people and didn't want to actually fall out with each other, breeder wanted a nice home for their puppy and Mum wanted a puppy from that particular kennel, all worked out in the end Mum has her puppy and is happy, breeder found a nice home for their puppy thankfully for both parties and the puppy, it all worked out in the end.


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## nutty (Feb 17, 2013)

OP.

This isnt a police issue. Just because you paid a deposit doesnt give you automatic entitlement to the puppy. It is indeed a contract of sale, but the seller (breeder) only has to supply you with the dog or refund your deposit. Ie they can cancel the sale. 

As others have stated, why not just accept the deposit? You may feel as if you have invested some emotional energy in to having the puppy but try at least to be sensible and adult about it!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> Breeders do totally have the right to change their minds and back out at any time, possession is 9/10ths of the law and whilst the OP does see this as their puppy, in reality and legally, the puppy is not. No court in the land would force the breeder to hand this puppy over when the deposit was offered back but not accepted.


Possession is not 9/10ths of the law unless it's children's playground law. When it comes to property, which is what the law classifies a dog, if a contract states the puppy is theirs after paying a deposit, it is theirs.

I realize a lot of breeders here don't like the idea.. get used to it and don't take deposits on a specific dog until you really know you are going to allow that dog to be taken.

I'd certainly check the position through citizens advice, trading standards etc. I wouldn't be scared of costs until your position is known. Even then, win the case and costs may also be paid.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

To the OP - there is some absolute rubbish being spouted on here by certain people who have no knowledge of either breeding dogs or deposits and contracts in law. Please don't be seduced by these posts into a lengthy court case where you will end up losing money. This link from the Trading Standards Office will show you exactly what you are entitled to.

And, as you will see, what you have already been told those experienced breeders who actually *know * what they are talking about is true - ie what you are entitled to is either the dog (for which you must pay in full) or your deposit back.
http://viperandvine.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/refunds.pdf


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## Dizzy Grace (May 2, 2012)

I stopped reading after page 7 or 8, but the one thing I see from this is a bit of a changing story. At first the breeder refused sale, then they wanted to keep it longer, made excuses etc. 

Not sure whether the OP is the one changing it or the breeder is, but when it comes down to it, very few reputable breeders will let a pup go at 7 weeks regardless of breed and as I understand it a pug should be with it's mum longer than that. 

Just because both the breeder and OP agreed a date it doesn't mean the pup will be ready then and demanding that the breeder hand over the pup on the day stated is likely to upset anyone. 

The pup is a living breathing creature and things aren't always going to work out the way you want it. No matter how hard you try to enforce your will on others. If you want it for show, go to a proper show breeder and be patient. It feels like you are trying to get a cheap pup you can show, breed and use and not a family pet to love and cherish.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Yes I realise that
> 
> It's interesting how different breeders can be in their approach. A few years back I went to view a litter of Lab pups. The sire was a well known dog, well respected kennel etc. Dam was a pet.
> 
> ...


Why would a well known kennel name want their dog to sire a litter with a pet lab?

Esp considering the dams lack of interest I where the pups went.

Seems very odd.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Possession is not 9/10ths of the law unless it's children's playground law. When it comes to property, which is what the law classifies a dog, if a contract states the puppy is theirs after paying a deposit, it is theirs.
> 
> I realize a lot of breeders here don't like the idea.. get used to it and don't take deposits on a specific dog until you really know you are going to allow that dog to be taken.
> 
> I'd certainly check the position through citizens advice, trading standards etc. I wouldn't be scared of costs until your position is known. Even then, win the case and costs may also be paid.


That's the reason I never take a deposit. Neither do I let them give me a deposit or accept them when the come to see the puppy. They have to go away and think about it and I tell them I will not make a decision on whether they can have a puppy until I've thought it over too.

I would much rather someone backs out or is a time waster without one of my puppies than having to sell them a puppy after I/they have changed their mind because they have paid a deposit.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Why would a well known kennel name want their dog to sire a litter with a pet lab?


A combination of stud fee and thinking that if they're going to mate their bitch anyway, they might as well do it to a quality health tested dog.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> That's the reason I never take a deposit. Neither do I let them give me a deposit or accept them when the come to see the puppy. They have to go away and think about it and I tell them I will not make a decision on whether they can have a puppy until I've thought it over too.
> 
> I would much rather someone backs out or is a time waster without one of my puppies than having to sell them a puppy after I/they have changed their mind because they have paid a deposit.


Look at the link from the Trading Standards Office - you do not have to sell anything (including a pup) that someone has paid a deposit for - all you have to do is refund the deposit in full. 

Having said that, I do like your system!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Doesn't matter if it's a "pet" or not. All dogs should be treated the same. Making the distinction makes it sound as though "pets" are second class.
> 
> what i meant by that is the i do not tell people their pup will be a show prospect, or breedable- they are sold as pets only, not show/breeding dogs. if they decide to breed the dog and it is healthy enough to be bred i will happily remove any endorsements, but as it is there have been 3 people wanting to breed and after being given all the info on breeding and raisding a litter not one of them have decided to go ahead.
> You've just validated the key argument. If you are not happy with the prospective owner they shouldn't get a dog. This should be investigated and decided before any money, including a deposit is handed over. When it comes down to it, endorsements cannot be enforced, especially if contact between breeder and owner is lost.
> ...





rocco33 said:


> That's the reason I never take a deposit. Neither do I let them give me a deposit or accept them when the come to see the puppy. They have to go away and think about it and I tell them I will not make a decision on whether they can have a puppy until I've thought it over too.
> 
> I would much rather someone backs out or is a time waster without one of my puppies than having to sell them a puppy after I/they have changed their mind because they have paid a deposit.


even though i do take deposits, i do so on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th visit- once the person is certain it's the breed for them, but i've still learnt unsavory things about some people after this. i'm getting a lot smarter and less trusting with age though!



chichi said:


> Circumstances change...people lie or omit the truth (same thing really)...health issues can pop up...there are a hundred different reasons a breeder may change their mind. So long as they do it as painlessly as possible .. return deposit and maybe even offer help in finding an alternative dog..it is the breeders right to end the contract imo.
> 
> As for those that lie about wanting a pet (when really they want a brood bitch) I couldnt care less...lies will always out if you search enough. They shouldnt have been dishonest in the first place.
> 
> There have been some amazing posts from breeders and those considering breeding....Im off now on a positive repping spree:smilewinkgrin: Kodakukki....you and I are so alike in our thinking re breeding...it could be me writing your posts


first, thanks for the rep- couldn't seem to send you a msg with the thanks, so here it is! 

it seems the thinking is a little different sometimes with toy breeds chichi- they are far more delicate and seen as both disposable and inanimate- the amount of times i've had people tell me they gave thwir 4yr old the optiohn between a pretty tv or a puppy is beyond a joke!
it is in the contract signed at time of deposit that the deposit is to book a puppy, but said puppy may change in suitability before due to leave and that a different pup in the litter may prove more suitable (which i did with a couple who had a daughter with special needs- the pup they liked at 7 weeks stopped growing at the same rate, so we switched the booked puppy to a bigger pup so both the daughter and pup would be safe and comfortable around each other.)

one of the people i chucked out of my house first visit told me on the phone they Just wanted a wee pet, no intention of breeding at all. she came into my house, stood in the middle of the room and just pointed at the smallest girl and said 'that one'. i encouraged her to interact with them before deciding, and her reply was 'no- she'll go with our male real well- he's a teacup too, so the pups will be small at least' :cursing: she didn't get a pup.

it is also in that same contract/agreement that if the person decides they no longer want a pup from me they May need to wait on another person booking the pup before i can return the deposit- that's more so in case something has cropped up and the pup account has been emptied for an emergency! 
and the agreements/contracts are still being edited and improved as time goes by...


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I really like your thinking Kodakuki.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I would much rather someone backs out or is a time waster without one of my puppies than having to sell them a puppy after I/they have changed their mind because they have paid a deposit.


I absolutely agree with you. I hate ads where the breeder says 'no time wasters'. obviously to them a time waster is someone who walks out without leaving money in their hands.

I only ever had one litter (wouldn't do it again - I didn't want to part with any of them!) and I was quite happy with a lady who said that my pup wasn't quite what she wanted (He was a westie, and the only one in the litter that still had pink on his nose - she was afraid it wouldn't go black - it did!). I wasn't there to get rid of my pups as quickly as possible to whoever walked through the door. I needed to be happy with them, and I needed to know that they were happy with their puppy.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> But sometimes DD you can be presented with someone who seems ideal and ticks all the boxes, and then it still doesn't work out. Look at what happened with us and Quinny - the family already had a dog; they were knowledgeable about border collies and knew what to expect from a border collie pup, they had been to Crufts and spoken to people on the DD stand to find out about them (this was coroborated by the person on the stand who could remember them because of their interest in agility and the YKC), the young boy had joined the YKC and was planning on doing agility (they knew they would have to wait until the pup was 18 months without me having to tell them), they came to visit twice (all the way from Norwich) and the children were comfortable and happy around the dogs, and they asked me if I would keep the pup an extra couple of weeks because they were going on holiday the week after he would have gone to live with them and they didn't think it fair to take a new pup on holiday or leave it with friends. When I took the pup and did a home check, the garden was secure, their 2 year old dog was happy, looked healthy and well-cared for, and they had prepared well for the pup with toys, bowls, basket, and indoor cage.
> 
> They were the last people I would have expected to ring up the next day and say they didn't want the pup. I still think they weer trying to pull some sort of scam - but whatever it was it didn't work because they got their money back - minus the deposit (which didn't even cover our expenses) and we took the pup home.
> 
> Sometimes even the most vigilant of us can be deceived.


But here you talk of people that ring up and dont want the puppy any more, It happens and has to us before to. My moto is they didnt deserve our babies in the first place, to drop them like that before even getting them home.
- However my posts wasnt on this type of situation, I was commenting on breeders taking deposits then finding something out about the potential owner and the breeder backing out. I just think that if a breeder HAS to take a deposit dont do so until you are 100% sure - I know to a certain degree you can never be 100% sure and that is why we do not wish to take a deposit.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> But here you talk of people that ring up and dont want the puppy any more, It happens and has to us before to. My moto is they didnt deserve our babies in the first place, to drop them like that before even getting them home.
> - However my posts wasnt on this type of situation, I was commenting on breeders taking deposits then finding something out about the potential owner and the breeder backing out. I just think that if a breeder HAS to take a deposit dont do so until you are 100% sure - I know to a certain degree you can never be 100% sure and that is why we do not wish to take a deposit.


Ah, I see where you are coming from now. Even though I was as sure as I could possibly be about this family. they still were not suitable - so if you can never be 100% sure, why take a deposit? (Takes a while for the penny to drop on sleepy Sunday afternoons!  )


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah, I see where you are coming from now. Even though I was as sure as I could possibly be about this family. they still were not suitable - so if you can never be 100% sure, why take a deposit? (Takes a while for the penny to drop on sleepy Sunday afternoons!  )


You got it LOL.. Yeah excuses, excuses!!haha  Hope them kiddies are well.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Hello150 said:


> In the videos, we can hear them calling her - they have named her and become attached to her. If this breeder can turn around the day before collection after a deposit has been paid, what is stopping other breeders deciding to do this?


Absolutely nothing, and it must be very disappointing, but all sorts of things can and do go wrong when you are waiting for a pup. When I got Joshua I went back to Ferdie's breeder who said the litter her dog was expecting was all booked up, but she had a friend who was breeding for the first time. I trusted her judgement about quality, but tragically every pup in the litter was stillborn.

Luckily for us, she decided to let us have one of her own.

It does sound to me, though, that this breeder has been told something about you to make her change her mind so abruptly. To be sending videos the day before, then change her mind like that seems to be the only reason I can think of.

You should ask outright for an honest answer. Obviously she will tell you that she wants to keep the pup, but whether that is true, you will never know.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Why would a well known kennel name want their dog to sire a litter with a pet lab?
> 
> Esp considering the dams lack of interest I where the pups went.
> 
> Seems very odd.


No idea. The sire was a very good looking boy, the dam was a real sweetie but a totally different type, if that makes sense.

I was shocked by the lack of interest and like you, I find it strange that the sire's breeders didn't care - then again I don't know how it works when the sire is perhaps a stud dog and is used maybe a lot? Maybe the sire's breeders don't get involved at all?


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Possession is not 9/10ths of the law unless it's children's playground law. When it comes to property, which is what the law classifies a dog, *if a contract states the puppy is theirs after paying a deposit*, it is theirs.


I don't know any reputable breeder in the world that would state such a stupid thing in a contract.

The person with possession usually gets benefit of the doubt, if I have it and you say it's yours, it's up to you to prove it. Any judge in the UK would assume it's mine, until proven otherwise. May be unfair, but sadly it is true.

Advising the OP to go down the route of taking the breeder to court for the puppy is a very stupid thing to do, unless of course the OP has money to burn and don't mind loosing!

Sadly the OP does have the issue of being in the position of being offered the deposit back paid for reservation of the puppy (*reservation* not *buying* the puppy) which was refused, so sadly OP is not onto a winner here.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

It would be nice to have an update from OP but I have a feeling they came for moral back up in forcing this breeder to part with the pup involved. Since it was apparent most felt that he should get deposit and walk away...i think OP has done one.

Oh well..the thread is good advice for other puppy buyers and reading some breeders replies has made me have even bigger respect for breeders on this forum...who are clearly breeding with tlc

As for those advising the legal route or even police involvement....I think it quite ridiculous because if I decided a puppy wasnt going to a particular family...it wouldnt be going...whether they decided to take to court or anything else. Theres nothing to say that a breeder in such a situation wouldnt say the dog had run away who could prove otherwise. One well bred Pug looks much the same as another of the same coat colour. 

I would never force a breeders hand. I was let down years ago for a pup I had reserved with deposit. I took it on the chin...disappointing but I found another pup who was even better...so it was meant. I had to wait a while but patience pays.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

The problem is chichi, from your posts I can clearly see that if you decided not to part with a puppy then thats it, you will say and do anything to keep that puppy. - as breeders we want the best and cant send them to someone we dont like or trust...- But I would suggest that you dont let anyone reserve a puppy until you are most certain about them, that way if something happens you dont need to pretend a puppy has run away  I mean what sort of reputation would that give you as a breeder?? Backing out, and lying...

- I get that we as breeders care, this is why you need to make sure your are comfortable with potential owners before engaging in a sale. - You forget that as a breeder you are offering a service. I dont feel comfortable seeing what your stating above about pups running away, pretending a pup is another ect. This is misleading, unethical and damn right deceiving, not what I would expect from someone claiming to be a responsible breeder!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> Advising the OP to go down the route of taking the breeder to court for the puppy is a very stupid thing to do, unless of course the OP has money to burn and don't mind loosing!


Which is the argument I would expect in terms of scare tactics from people with a vested interest in the process. Court costs as far as I am aware can be given to the person who wins a case. It shouldn't need to go to court but knowing your rights is a great place to start. This could be citizens advice, trading standards etc. I wouldn't be surprised if a simple solicitors letter actually sorts the problem out either but that would cost money. I personally wouldn't be scared off by the tactics of "it will cost you an arm an a leg" if you are legally in the right and could reclaim costs.

Legally a dog is property, like a car. If you put a deposit on a car you expect to get the car, not have the person say, no I like the colour I'm going to keep it. A deposit is paid to reserve the item in question. If you decide you don't want the car having paid the deposit, the owner keeps the deposit as you've backed out of the agreement. The owner cannot decide not to sell the car and not have any penalty incurred. Hence why I'm saying don't take a deposit until you are sure the prospective owner is suitable.

In the case mentioned of a hernia with a pup, the pup is normally, like a car brought as seen. A responsible breeder will inform the new owner if problems regarding health are found. If they decide to keep the puppy the breeder could assist with costs (their choice but would like to think they would) but it is the new owner who is responsible for the medical care. If the new owner pulls out, the deposit could be kept as that is the legal position. They may decide to give the deposit back as a gesture but the prospective owner could not insist on it.

If the seller can back out on a whim, what purpose does a deposit serve?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The problem is chichi, from your posts I can clearly see that if you decided not to part with a puppy then thats it, you will say and do anything to keep that puppy. - as breeders we want the best and cant send them to someone we dont like or trust...- But I would suggest that you dont let anyone reserve a puppy until you are most certain about them, that way if something happens you dont need to pretend a puppy has run away  I mean what sort of reputation would that give you as a breeder?? Backing out, and lying...
> 
> - I get that we as breeders care, this is why you need to make sure your are comfortable with potential owners before engaging in a sale. - You forget that as a breeder you are offering a service. I dont feel comfortable seeing what your stating above about pups running away, pretending a pup is another ect. This is misleading, unethical and damn right deceiving, not what I would expect from someone claiming to be a responsible breeder!


I really couldnt give a monkeys what anyone thinks. I didnt say I would do it (say the pup had run away) I said a breeder could say that.

My responsibility is to my dogs..pups and the owners once the pup has been passed over to them. Before that the pups come first.

You can roll your eyes at me all you like and try to infer Im not responsible but end of day..my pups are my pups and if I felt they were in danger in going to a certain home because of information that had come to light...they wouldnt be going. Irresponsible to you maybe. Not to me...if somebody lies to get to reserve a pup then they are owed sod all by anybody...least of all the breeder they lied to.

You do what you like with your pups...I will do whats best for mine...no matter what you or anyone else thinks.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Which is the argument I would expect in terms of scare tactics from people with a vested interest in the process. Court costs as far as I am aware can be given to the person who wins a case. It shouldn't need to go to court but knowing your rights is a great place to start. This could be citizens advice, trading standards etc. I wouldn't be surprised if a simple solicitors letter actually sorts the problem out either but that would cost money. I personally wouldn't be scared off by the tactics of "it will cost you an arm an a leg" if you are legally in the right and could reclaim costs.
> 
> Legally a dog is property, like a car. If you put a deposit on a car you expect to get the car, not have the person say, no I like the colour I'm going to keep it. A deposit is paid to reserve the item in question. If you decide you don't want the car having paid the deposit, the owner keeps the deposit as you've backed out of the agreement. The owner cannot decide not to sell the car and not have any penalty incurred. Hence why I'm saying don't take a deposit until you are sure the prospective owner is suitable.
> 
> ...


We don't know all the ins and outs here, but just supposing the breeder had found out that the buyer who'd left the deposit was, for example, a puppy farmer looking to increase their breeding stock. Would you still be advising the buyer to go to court? Or would you be saying the breeder had every right to decide not to sell the pup and to return the deposit?

Not every case is cut and dried!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Well if this thread carries on the way it's going, I'm off for a bag of popcorn!!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> As for those advising the legal route or even police involvement....I think it quite ridiculous because if I decided a puppy wasnt going to a particular family...it wouldnt be going...whether they decided to take to court or anything else. Theres nothing to say that a breeder in such a situation wouldnt say the dog had run away who could prove otherwise. One well bred Pug looks much the same as another of the same coat colour.


In this case it goes beyond trade law becoming theft, in fact with this post you are advocating breaking the law as you don't like it.

I am not saying care shouldn't be taken in choosing prospective owners. Breeders do care, that much is clear. However prospective owners also have rights and breeders should not trample over them no matter how justified they feel.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

chichi said:


> I really couldnt give a monkeys what anyone thinks. I didnt say I would do it (say the pup had run away) I said a breeder could say that.
> 
> *My responsibility is to my dogs..pups and the owners once the pup has been passed over to them. Before that the pups come first.*
> 
> ...


also... my mum learned a hard lesson when she first bred missy. i was involved in the homing process, but there was a family i wasn't sure of, but she thought 'they'd be fine'. that was the last time she didn't ask my input of the homing of a pup- considering it has left kuki and bambis brother with a bad leg and only one eye. (those kids shouldn't have a small dog. period.)

so i will do whatever it takes to keep my pups safe for life- even if it did mean lying to someone who wouldn't take no as an answer. what i feel about myself matters a hell of a lot more to me than what others think of me- why do you think i'm not showing in my breed atm!? a LOT of YT here (yes, even being shown) have very bad LP, poppet doesn't, but she is a bit too big to be placed in a show. would you rather have a pup from a dam who is a bit big, or who is falling apart but pretty and teeny?

everyone has their ethics, and everyones ethics differ- it's what makes you feel right about how you do something that matters.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> We don't know all the ins and outs here, but just supposing the breeder had found out that the buyer who'd left the deposit was, for example, a puppy farmer looking to increase their breeding stock. Would you still be advising the buyer to go to court? Or would you be saying the breeder had every right to decide not to sell the pup and to return the deposit?


I would say the breeder was wrong to take a deposit. Yes, legally the buyer should go to court. I wouldn't like it but I would not condone breaking the law if the law is as I think it is. Trade and contractual laws are there to protect people. You can't pick and choose which laws to ignore or the whole trading/contract mechanism is pointless. That includes all those contracts breeders want to implement and to be adhered to. If breeders feel they can break contracts etc as and when they like, surely others can to.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> In this case it goes beyond trade law becoming theft, in fact with this post you are advocating breaking the law as you don't like it.
> 
> I am not saying care shouldn't be taken in choosing prospective owners. Breeders do care, that much is clear. However prospective owners also have rights and breeders should not trample over them no matter how justified they feel.


OMG I am not advocating it...I am saying its what could be said.

I understand exactly what you ard saying....I do....I am talking about people who deliberately deceive a breeder to reserve a puppy. Their rights...both morally and ethically are null and void in my mind...if they lied to the breeder.

Nobody is saying that the OP lied...we are talking about some reasons why a breeder may change their mind willy nilly. That is wrong...nobody has said otherwise...have they?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Which is the argument I would expect in terms of scare tactics from people with a vested interest in the process. Court costs as far as I am aware can be given to the person who wins a case. It shouldn't need to go to court but knowing your rights is a great place to start. This could be citizens advice, trading standards etc. I wouldn't be surprised if a simple solicitors letter actually sorts the problem out either but that would cost money. I personally wouldn't be scared off by the tactics of "it will cost you an arm an a leg" if you are legally in the right and could reclaim costs.
> 
> Legally a dog is property, like a car. If you put a deposit on a car you expect to get the car, not have the person say, no I like the colour I'm going to keep it. A deposit is paid to reserve the item in question. If you decide you don't want the car having paid the deposit, the owner keeps the deposit as you've backed out of the agreement. The owner cannot decide not to sell the car and not have any penalty incurred. Hence why I'm saying don't take a deposit until you are sure the prospective owner is suitable.
> 
> ...


You are wrong.

I suggest you read the Trading Standards link I put on and

a) stop giving people wrong advice that could end up costing them a lot of money and
b) stop trying to make out that the caring breeders who are giving the correct advice are the ones giving bad advice.

How very irresponsble of you.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Im glad you dont give a monkeys what others think.. I on the other hand, care a great deal what others think of my breeding ethics. 

Your responsibility maybe your dogs but as you wish to breed, you also have the responsibility of selling puppies, and choosing potential owners. 
You might not have said you, yourself would pretend a puppy has run away, or even pretend another is another. - That fact is you suggested it, which is what got me question your breeding morals.

If you felt they could be in danger you shouldnt have taken a deposit.
If there was a chance someone was lying you shouldnt have taken a depost.
If you couldnt make sure everything said was the truth you shouldnt have taken a deposit. - ECT. The list is endless. To many breeders enter into a sale with an owner, and then drop out when something comes to light. Thats fine we want the best for our puppies, but owners have rights to and I dont know any decent breeder that would lie to not sell a puppy, when there is a simple solution...- Dont take a deposit, and dont let anyone reserve a puppy until you (as breeder) are ten hundred percent happy.

If they lie then your right they are owed nothing, but then again when you post comments seemingly stating its ok for breeders to lie..what can you do?

we have turned people down before, on gut instinct alone..If we both dont agree, then simple no puppy from us.



chichi said:


> I really couldnt give a monkeys what anyone thinks. I didnt say I would do it (say the pup had run away) I said a breeder could say that.
> 
> My responsibility is to my dogs..pups and the owners once the pup has been passed over to them. Before that the pups come first.
> 
> ...


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> also... my mum learned a hard lesson when she first bred missy. i was involved in the homing process, but there was a family i wasn't sure of, but she thought 'they'd be fine'. that was the last time she didn't ask my input of the homing of a pup- considering it has left kuki and bambis brother with a bad leg and only one eye. (those kids shouldn't have a small dog. period.)
> 
> so i will do whatever it takes to keep my pups safe for life- even if it did mean lying to someone who wouldn't take no as an answer. what i feel about myself matters a hell of a lot more to me than what others think of me- why do you think i'm not showing in my breed atm!? a LOT of YT here (yes, even being shown) have very bad LP, poppet doesn't, but she is a bit too big to be placed in a show. would you rather have a pup from a dam who is a bit big, or who is falling apart but pretty and teeny?
> 
> everyone has their ethics, and everyones ethics differ- it's what makes you feel right about how you do something that matters.


Amen to that x

Sorry to hear about the poor puppy that was hurt....must have been awful!!!!


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Which is the argument I would expect in terms of scare tactics from people with a vested interest in the process. Court costs as far as I am aware can be given to the person who wins a case. It shouldn't need to go to court but knowing your rights is a great place to start. This could be citizens advice, trading standards etc. I wouldn't be surprised if a simple solicitors letter actually sorts the problem out either but that would cost money. I personally wouldn't be scared off by the tactics of "it will cost you an arm an a leg" if you are legally in the right and could reclaim costs.


Legally, the OP isn't in the right, OP lost all face by refusing to accept the deposit back, if this went to court, I can tell you OP would loose. Citizens advice would advise the same thing, so would trading standards and so would any solicitor worth their salt.



Goblin said:


> Legally a dog is property, like a car. If you put a deposit on a car you expect to get the car, not have the person say, no I like the colour I'm going to keep it. A deposit is paid to reserve the item in question. If you decide you don't want the car having paid the deposit, the owner keeps the deposit as you've backed out of the agreement. The owner cannot decide not to sell the car and not have any penalty incurred. Hence why I'm saying don't take a deposit until you are sure the prospective owner is suitable.


A dog isn't a car, it's very interesting you feel they are very much the same
The OP is entitled to costs incurred, travelling to see the puppy each way however many times, being out of pocket for preparing to bring the puppy home etc
However, the OP is not entitled to the puppy, especially where they were offered their deposit back.



Goblin said:


> *If the seller can back out on a whim, what purpose does a deposit serve?*


Deposits are generally in place to save breeders being messed around, say for instance I left a £200 deposit in place to reserve a puppy (reserve, not to buy) there's every chance I'm going to return to collect the puppy or else there's a very good chance I loose that £200 which the breeder has every right too keep after being messed around if I backed out of the sale, that said £200 would cover the cost of keeping the said puppy and re advertising fee's or whatever else.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Goblin said:


> I would say the breeder was wrong to take a deposit. Yes, legally the buyer should go to court. I wouldn't like it but I would not condone breaking the law if the law is as I think it is. Trade and contractual laws are there to protect people. You can't pick and choose which laws to ignore or the whole trading/contract mechanism is pointless. That includes all those contracts breeders want to implement and to be adhered to. If breeders feel they can break contracts etc as and when they like, surely others can to.





chichi said:


> Nobody is saying that the OP lied...we are talking about some reasons why a breeder may change their mind willy nilly. That is wrong...nobody has said otherwise...have they?


also remember, we don't know how well or appallingly this contract has been worded! it could be that the contract is mere loo roll and all that tthey are really dealing with is a 'he said, she said'!


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2013)

Goblin I have tried to reply to you, my post has to be approved


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

chichi said:


> I understand exactly what you ard saying....I do....I am talking about people who deliberately deceive a breeder to reserve a puppy. Their rights...both morally and ethically are null and void in my mind...if they lied to the breeder.


I fully understand your point of view, wanting to protect a life, not property.. it's just a deposit shouldn't be taken unless you are 110% sure of a prospective owner due to how the law stands. The idea of not giving a dog up on a whim is certainly not to be condoned.

As an aside I believe Texas has moved dogs out of simply being "property" although I do not know the full implications. Maybe that should be pushed for in the UK..


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Im glad you dont give a monkeys what others think.. I on the other hand, care a great deal what others think of my breeding ethics.
> 
> Your responsibility maybe your dogs but as you wish to breed, you also have the responsibility of selling puppies, and choosing potential owners.
> You might not have said you, yourself would pretend a puppy has run away, or even pretend another is another. - That fact is you suggested it, which is what got me question your breeding morals.
> ...


You seem to like twisting my words DD. Thats fine if thats what makes you feel good. I was stating fact. Not saying I had or would lie about a puppy. I actually mentioned Pugs. I was talking about the pup/breeder of the thread...being as the OP *states* this breeder is unstable and swears at potential puppy buyers...and so on...

You seem to be hung up on deposits....deposit or no deposit....if you let someone down for a pup for no good reason...that is immoral. If somebody has deceived a breeder....deposit or not....they deserve it.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> I fully understand your point of view, wanting to protect a life, not property.. it's just a deposit shouldn't be taken unless you are 110% sure of a prospective owner due to how the law stands. The idea of not giving a dog up on a whim is certainly not to be condoned.
> 
> As an aside I believe Texas has moved dogs out of simply being "property" although I do not know the full implications. Maybe that should be pushed for in the UK..


Texas sounds like they have it right....thumbs up to Texas

I have NEVER said that a breeder should simply change their mind for no good reason. In fact I have expressly said that if the puppy buyer has lied....deceived.....or a health issue were to crop up with said pup....that would be good reason to end the contract for me.

This thread has turned in to a debate on DEPOSITS when really its about a breeder changing their mind...for no good reason (If we believe what we read)...which is wrong. But would it be okay if the breeder had promised the pup...changed their mind for no other reason other than that it was their legal choice to do so...but hadnt taken a deposit. Would that be morally okay? Because to me it wouldnt.

I should also add that I dont always take deposits....being as its become a "deposit" discussion.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I'll walk away from this thread now, Because for one I cant be bothered, and for two the breeders on this thread seem only to care about themselves - which in one respect is fine, its their dogs but in another it is quite sad considering they CHOOSE to offer a service (thats what it is isnt it? Selling puppies to others) Yet have little respect for the very people that enquire about their puppies, or want to put a deposit down. I just dont understand why someone would feel its ok to take someones money then back out, for what ever reason...Maybe more breeders should look deeply into potential owners before snapping their hands off for their cash... 


I know new owners can tell porkies, but if it keeps happening I also question why these folk feel the need to lie, again as a breeder you should be covering all aspects of the breed, and ownership. Although it doesnt stop people lying, I find that it helps folk to open up. Dont wait for people to bring things up to catch them out, it isnt a game..ASK, and let the people feel that your open minded, you dont have to be on all things but given that impression helps get the true idea of folks true intentions.

Yes I am very hung up on deposits, you are right.. It doesnt sit right with me, never will, never has...and thats my choice!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I'll walk away from this thread now, Because for one I cant be bothered, and for two the breeders on this thread seem only to care about themselves - which in one respect is fine, its their dogs but in another it is quite sad considering they CHOOSE to offer a service (thats what it is isnt it? Selling puppies to others) Yet have little respect for the very people that enquire about their puppies, or want to put a deposit down. I just dont understand why someone would feel its ok to take someones money then back out, for what ever reason...Maybe more breeders should look deeply into potential owners before snapping their hands off for their cash...
> 
> I know new owners can tell porkies, but if it keeps happening I also question why these folk feel the need to lie, again as a breeder you should be covering all aspects of the breed, and ownership. Although it doesnt stop people lying, I find that it helps folk to open up. Dont wait for people to bring things up to catch them out, it isnt a game..ASK, and let the people feel that your open minded, you dont have to be on all things but given that impression helps get the true idea of folks true intentions.
> 
> Yes I am very hung up on deposits, you are right.. It doesnt sit right with me, never will, never has...and thats my choice!


Really DD dont imply I bite anyone hand off for cash because I find that really insulting and if you knew me you would know you are so far from the truth ...you are actually being ridiculous.

You seem to think you have the moral high ground because you dont take a deposit...yes maybe ....or maybe you want all your options open without ever being threatened with the law by a disgruntled potential puppy owner.

My pups' welfare means EVERYTHING to me.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I dont have the moral high ground at all, each to their own..Questioning, or disagreeing with something doesnt mean I feel I have any sort of high ground.

I just know, of no valid reason to take a deposit. - and I stand by that. If it works for you great.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont have the moral high ground at all, each to their own..Questioning, or disagreeing with something doesnt mean I feel I have any sort of high ground.
> 
> I just know, of no valid reason to take a deposit. - and I stand by that. If it works for you great.


The snapping hands off for cash made me think you were judging unfairly.

Fair enough though. I appreciate your points and always listen to other breeders points of view. Will definitely give deposits further thought if I breed another litter, as I wouldnt want any bad feeling, if avoidable.

I have heard of breeders taking a deposit/holding fee on pups not yet born which I really find strange but each to their own. Anyhow thats a whole other topic......


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## cavmad (Jan 27, 2009)

All this hassle is the reason i will never breed a litter of pups i am too easily taken in by people and would hate it if i homed a pup to somebody that wasnt right for the pup and i dont think anyone would ever be good enough anyway.
That said i expect the breeder i get a pup from to be honest with me. Many years ago i went and saw a litter of cavs i wanted a tri bitch and this lady only had two but said i could have the choice of the two. When i got there a couple of weeks later she told me that one pup wasnt growing properly and was too small to sell which is fine and i thought she was a really good caring breeder. I saw the other pup who was really sweet but not that well marked she had too much white on her for my likeing but as she was to do agility and a pet it really didnt matter and i knew i would love her anyway so deposit paid i went home and waited the 3 weeks till i could pick her up. When i went to collect her she handed me the pup and i know that markings can change put the pup she gave me i was sure was the little one but she was healthy looking and i liked her better anyway so didnt say anything. When i rang the breeder to say how well Jazz was settling in i asked about the little one and the breeder went quiet and then said that she had sold her a she caught up when they were weaned so i was certain i didnt get the pup i put a deposit on. I started to show Jazz as a way to socolise her only open shows and the breeders daughter was showing a tri bitch from the same litter a pup with alot of white on her. Well Jazz always beat her and was always placed and the breeder phoned me and asked if i would sell her back as i had only wanted a pet and she was show quality i refused and she wasnt happy. Even less happy when she asked if i would keep her in mind for a pup and i said i wasnt going to breed her she said i was wasting a good bitch.As it was Jazz went on and developed SM/CM when she was old so it was for the best anyway as when she was young there was no testing for it.
I will now look for a breeder that has endorsements on the pups as to me they care about the breed and are doing thier best to keep the breed healthy and breed only from the best quality there will still be pets for whatever reason marking or maybe the bite goes wrong and they are still loving and clever dogs just not show quality they are not second rate at all my Koda is only Pet quality as he has a few white hairs on his ears which doesnt make him any different and everyone says he is a real handsome dog and i dont love him any less he is the best tempered dog i have and will accept any dog i have here and is the cleverest dog i have ever owned i wouldnt change him for anything


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Have to say that when I was homing my Mal pups my one and only concern was for them, not a stranger who I barely knew after a first meet. I turned down many on first impressions, some who may have made decent owners but I wouldn't take the chance if I felt at all uneasy. One pup was destined for a home, viewed twice and puppy chosen ( didn't take deposits) but having found a few comments on Facebook in general conversation, a few remarks that seemed different to who I'd seen in person I thought they were being false with me and phoned to say I didn't think the breed was right for them and decided to decline the offer of a home. I could have read too much in between the lines but they just didn't sit right with me. They were extremely disappointed but there's plenty of other Mals around and no doubt they got one in the end. I kept a couple of mine until six and seven months old because I was sooo wary of people. I'm not a people person anyway and my dogs will always have priority over family, let alone complete strangers!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

cavmad said:


> All this hassle is the reason i will never breed a litter of pups i am too easily taken in by people and would hate it if i homed a pup to somebody that wasnt right for the pup and i dont think anyone would ever be good enough anyway.
> That said i expect the breeder i get a pup from to be honest with me. Many years ago i went and saw a litter of cavs i wanted a tri bitch and this lady only had two but said i could have the choice of the two. When i got there a couple of weeks later she told me that one pup wasnt growing properly and was too small to sell which is fine and i thought she was a really good caring breeder. I saw the other pup who was really sweet but not that well marked she had too much white on her for my likeing but as she was to do agility and a pet it really didnt matter and i knew i would love her anyway so deposit paid i went home and waited the 3 weeks till i could pick her up. When i went to collect her she handed me the pup and i know that markings can change put the pup she gave me i was sure was the little one but she was healthy looking and i liked her better anyway so didnt say anything. When i rang the breeder to say how well Jazz was settling in i asked about the little one and the breeder went quiet and then said that she had sold her a she caught up when they were weaned so i was certain i didnt get the pup i put a deposit on. I started to show Jazz as a way to socolise her only open shows and the breeders daughter was showing a tri bitch from the same litter a pup with alot of white on her. Well Jazz always beat her and was always placed and the breeder phoned me and asked if i would sell her back as i had only wanted a pet and she was show quality i refused and she wasnt happy. Even less happy when she asked if i would keep her in mind for a pup and i said i wasnt going to breed her she said i was wasting a good bitch.As it was Jazz went on and developed SM/CM when she was old so it was for the best anyway as when she was young there was no testing for it.
> I will now look for a breeder that has endorsements on the pups as to me they care about the breed and are doing thier best to keep the breed healthy and breed only from the best quality there will still be pets for whatever reason marking or maybe the bite goes wrong and they are still loving and clever dogs just not show quality they are not second rate at all my Koda is only Pet quality as he has a few white hairs on his ears which doesnt make him any different and everyone says he is a real handsome dog and i dont love him any less he is the best tempered dog i have and will accept any dog i have here and is the cleverest dog i have ever owned i wouldnt change him for anything


Very naughty switching a pup...cant believe that a breeder would be so sneaky!

As for the attitude when you refused the breeding idea....she sounds like a nightmare!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Have to say that when I was homing my Mal pups my one and only concern was for them, not a stranger who I barely knew after a first meet. I turned down many on first impressions, some who may have made decent owners but I wouldn't take the chance if I felt at all uneasy. One pup was destined for a home, viewed twice and puppy chosen ( didn't take deposits) but having found a few comments on Facebook in general conversation, a few remarks that seemed different to who I'd seen in person I thought they were being false with me and phoned to say I didn't think the breed was right for them and decided to decline the offer of a home. I could have read too much in between the lines but they just didn't sit right with me. They were extremely disappointed but there's plenty of other Mals around and no doubt they got one in the end. I kept a couple of mine until six and seven months old because I was sooo wary of people. I'm not a people person anyway and my dogs will always have priority over family, let alone complete strangers!


Facebook is a godsend lol

People dont seem to realise that they plaster their lives all over the internet and dont protect their FB page.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

chichi said:


> Facebook is a godsend lol
> 
> People dont seem to realise that they plaster their lives all over the internet and dont protect their FB page.


Too right. I never mind anyone looking at mine, it's full of lost dogs, found dogs, needy dogs and my dogs - a right old bore really, lol.  Oh and very occasionally my kids - but that's a rarity! They say 'auntie so and so is always posting about her kids but you never do' ha ha!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Too right. I never mind anyone looking at mine, it's full of lost dogs, found dogs, needy dogs and my dogs - a right old bore really, lol.  Oh and very occasionally my kids - but that's a rarity! They say 'auntie so and so is always posting about her kids but you never do' ha ha!


your facebook sounds Very like mine- minus the kids!!!!

i think the next litter i have i'll be gettin the 'bookers' to add me to their FB- and then just stalk them a bit!!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

chichi said:


> The snapping hands off for cash made me think you were judging unfairly.
> 
> Fair enough though. I appreciate your points and always listen to other breeders points of view. Will definitely give deposits further thought if I breed another litter, as I wouldnt want any bad feeling, if avoidable.
> 
> *I have heard of breeders taking a deposit/holding fee on pups not yet born which I really find strange but each to their own. Anyhow thats a whole other topic......*


I have encountered this. I have also come across a Lab breeder who allows one potential owner to have pick of litter and charges them more for this - not sure if this is something unusual or quite common?

I can only imagine that it must be very hard for caring breeders, to entrust relative strangers with their pups. I've read of one breeder who now insists on visiting a person's home before allowing them to have one of her pups. Another breeder I once spoke to wanted to take my address so she could google it.

I think the good breeders *are* the ones who interrogate potential owners - and even then a good liar can probably deceive even the most caring, careful of breeders.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I have encountered this. I have also come across a Lab breeder who allows one potential owner to have pick of litter and charges them more for this - not sure if this is something unusual or quite common?
> 
> I can only imagine that it must be very hard for caring breeders, to entrust relative strangers with their pups. I've read of one breeder who now insists on visiting a person's home before allowing them to have one of her pups. Another breeder I once spoke to wanted to take my address so she could google it.
> 
> I think the good breeders *are* the ones who interrogate potential owners - and even then a good liar can probably deceive even the most caring, careful of breeders.


when signing the initial agreement i ask for addresses. the most common answer to 'are your gardens fenced in?' is 'oh yea, has been for years' turns out thats often a porky! good ol' google eh?!
i don't see the point of wee lies like thaat- all i would have said to a no was that it would probably be a good idea to get it secured- the wee terrers love to jot out from nowhere when the doors open; i wouldn't say no as soon as i hear the garden isn't fenced (although have held a pup longer because the momma hadn't thought of that, so wanted to get it fixed before taking the baby home)

thing is, what some find acceptable questioning, others find creepy and intrusive... and since we are offering a puppy homing Service, that might not be acceptable to some.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

sammypenny said:


> Try calling the non emergency police number .


you are joking!
Aren't you?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Right!
Not read all the posts between the first page and here, but they cannot withhold the deposit, but think you will perhaps have problems getting the pup, They have told you why they are keeping her/him, but it would have been just as easy for them to have said the pup had died or something, and you would have had heck of a job proving otherwise!

Personally, if in your shoes I would blow a lot of hot air, dissed em as much at I could and basically tried to have put them in a bad light!
That's is
Sorry xxx


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

kodakkuki said:


> when signing the initial agreement i ask for addresses. the most common answer to 'are your gardens fenced in?' is 'oh yea, has been for years' turns out thats often a porky! good ol' google eh?!
> i don't see the point of wee lies like thaat- all i would have said to a no was that it would probably be a good idea to get it secured- the wee terrers love to jot out from nowhere when the doors open; i wouldn't say no as soon as i hear the garden isn't fenced (although have held a pup longer because the momma hadn't thought of that, so wanted to get it fixed before taking the baby home)
> 
> thing is, what some find acceptable questioning, others find creepy and intrusive... and since we are offering a puppy homing Service, that might not be acceptable to some.


I read on a forum once this girl who was so pleased with herself because she had fooled a breeder into selling her a GSD puppy when she actually lived in a small flat. She had given her mother's address and shown photos of her mother's house.

I expect there was a very good reason why the breeder did not want her very large, herding breed to be raised in a small flat.

I would hate to breed - nobody would be good enough for my pups.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I read on a forum once this girl who was so pleased with herself because she had fooled a breeder into selling her a GSD puppy when she actually lived in a small flat. She had given her mother's address and shown photos of her mother's house.
> 
> I expect there was a very good reason why the breeder did not want her very large, herding breed to be raised in a small flat.
> 
> I would hate to breed - nobody would be good enough for my pups.


I think I know who that was, I read the same post.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I can only imagine that it must be very hard for caring breeders, to entrust relative strangers with their pups. I've read of one breeder who now insists on visiting a person's home before allowing them to have one of her pups.


And you are about to read of another - me! If prospective owners live near I do it before they collect the puppy, but if they live a fair distance away I take the puppy to them and do it then.

In this day and age you can never be too careful - what seems like a perfectly decent couple can be a front for a puppy farm, or someone living in a squat who wants to either breed the dog willy nilly despite any endorsements, or sell the dog on (all tales that have been told to me by breeders I trust). There was even a warning going around at once time about a foreign-sounding man who was contacting border collie breeders wanting to buy two or three pups from a litter - it was suspected he wanted them as "training" animals for fighting dogs 

But even if everything is legit, it's amazing how much you can pick up by seeing people in their own environment - eg have they any other dogs, do they look well-cared for, do they have children that they've not told me about (not necessarily bad, but I'd need to give them important info re border collies and kids), where do they intend the dog to live etc etc.

I'm not bothered whether prospective owners live in a mansion or a terraced house, as long as they have a property suitable for a dog (and by suitable I mean safe and dog-friendly) - and as long as the vibes are right when I get there.

And another breeder who does this is the breeder of our bergies - she once took a puppy all the way to Scandanavia and then brought it straight back home becasue she didn't like the set-up when she got there.

In fact, I know several breeders who home check - it's not quite as rare as you might imagine.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> And you are about to read of another - me! If prospective owners live near I do it before they collect the puppy, but if they live a fair distance away I take the puppy to them and do it then.
> 
> In this day and age you can never be too careful - what seems like a perfectly decent couple can be a front for a puppy farm, or someone living in a squat who wants to either breed the dog willy nilly despite any endorsements, or sell the dog on (all tales that have been told to me by breeders I trust). There was even a warning going around at once time about a foreign-sounding man who was contacting border collie breeders wanting to buy two or three pups from a litter - it was suspected he wanted them as "training" animals for fighting dogs
> 
> ...


That's fab  If I was seeking a pup I would be very happy if a breeder cared enough to do a home check!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> And you are about to read of another - me! If prospective owners live near I do it before they collect the puppy, but if they live a fair distance away I take the puppy to them and do it then.


Also, I imagine for the pup this is relatively less stressful as well? Going in a car with you compared to traveling with complete strangers. A much nicer transition. Shame all breeders won't do this - I can understand that if lots of the litter are to go far away in opposite directions it may not be possible, but still, in a perfect world.

It did occur to me that, hypothetically, I could lie to my breeder and they wouldn't know - I will just add that I did NOT lie! And never would, but it just occurred to me when I was explaining my living circumstances. I currently live in the middle of nowhere, with lots of land, however I will at some point in the next few years move into a flat. I told every breeder I contacted this and all but one said that this was fine, however that one, said she didn't think a flat, even a ground floor garden flat, was suitable. She was hours and hours away from me, and the truth of it is, I could have given her my current address (my mothers) and she would have been none the wiser. That's the sort of thing that puts me off every breeder! How can breeders ever really be sure?


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Spellweaver and many others you sound like just the sort of breeders I would love to buy from. I'm currently without my favourite breed the Rough Collie because I couldn't find a pup that met the standards I wanted.

I only want a pet. I do believe that if you love a breed pet or show, you would want a puppy from a breeder who has the health of the breed at heart and wants the best possible home for their puppies.

To the original poster I feel your disappointment I would be angry, bewildered and hurt. But you have to shrug it off and move on with your deposit.

Because I couldn't find the Rough Collie pup for me when I was ready for another dog in my life I decided my home needed a dog so we took on a rescue.

We love our little monster she has widened our experience of dog owning and enriched our lives. Eventually the perfect Rough at the right time will be there for us and my heart is big enough for 2 dogs.

Why not get a rescue pug to take the pressure off looking. Then you can enjoy forming a relationship with a good breeder for your show pup. When you finally get your pup you have another dog to show it the way. 

I'm sure you too could find room in your heart for two.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Picklelily said:


> Spellweaver and many others you sound like just the sort of breeders I would love to buy from. I'm currently without my favourite breed the Rough Collie because I couldn't find a pup that met the standards I wanted.
> 
> I only want a pet. I do believe that if you love a breed pet or show, you would want a puppy from a breeder who has the health of the breed at heart and wants the best possible home for their puppies.
> 
> ...


Have you looked on collie.net?

They have RCs that need rehoming.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Have you looked on collie.net?
> 
> They have RCs that need rehoming.


Yes thank you but I would want a pup if I had another Rough Collie.


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Which is the argument I would expect in terms of scare tactics from people with a vested interest in the process. Court costs as far as I am aware can be given to the person who wins a case. It shouldn't need to go to court but knowing your rights is a great place to start. This could be citizens advice, trading standards etc. I wouldn't be surprised if a simple solicitors letter actually sorts the problem out either but that would cost money. I personally wouldn't be scared off by the tactics of "it will cost you an arm an a leg" if you are legally in the right and could reclaim costs.


OP isn't legally in the right really aren't they?!

They are actually onto a loser in terms of being offered the deposit back and refusing it in the hope that will get them the puppy. Citizens advice would tell you this, so would trading standards and any good solicitor worth their salt.

Realistically it would cost them an arm and a leg challenging this and the only one to end up paying the costs would be the OP. Worst still, only takes the judge to be an animal lover to see this is very much a case of sour grapes on the OP's part in terms of not walking away with their deposit intact. I think you'll find there is probably more to this story and we are in fact only getting one side of it.



Goblin said:


> Legally a dog is property, like a car. If you put a deposit on a car you expect to get the car, not have the person say, no I like the colour I'm going to keep it. A deposit is paid to reserve the item in question. If you decide you don't want the car having paid the deposit, the owner keeps the deposit as you've backed out of the agreement. The owner cannot decide not to sell the car and not have any penalty incurred. Hence why I'm saying don't take a deposit until you are sure the prospective owner is suitable.


That old chestnut ''A dog is like a car''

In legal terms it really isn't. It's a living breathing life, not a lump of metal and in legal terms would not be treated as such. I've actually lost count of the times people have gone to the press in Britain when they have somehow managed to loose their dogs, and such dogs have ended up in rescue, rescues have been challenged on this and won their cases. So have people who have sold their dogs on then later changed their minds. Even people who have had their dogs stolen can not get them back even with the presence of a microchip declaring they were once the owners.

The person with current and present ownership is always considered in the eyes of the law.

Read the cases below.

Dog-owner prevented from finding microchipped pet under Data Protection Act - Telegraph

Couple lose legal tug-of-love over sausage dog | UK | News | Daily Express

Police find nine-year-old girl's stolen pet puppy - but say she can't have it back | Mail Online



Goblin said:


> If the seller can back out on a whim, what purpose does a deposit serve?


The whole purpose of a deposit to secure a puppy is usually to stop the breeder being messed around by the buyer. The chances are if I paid a substantial deposit to reserve (reserve not buy a puppy) the chances are I will return to collect that puppy when the time comes. If I don't I would accept that I had fore fitted the deposit which would allow the breeder expenses to feed and house then re advertise the puppy.

If the seller backs out on a whim and chooses to offer the deposit back and that deposit isn't accepted then I'm very much afraid it is a case of sour grapes on the OP's part.

I'm also afraid that attempting to ''rubbish'' the breeders name wouldn't get anyone anywhere if you later had plans to show then potentially breed your dog if endorsements were put into place. Always good if you can stay on the right side of your dogs breeder

I'm afraid even the title of this thread is wrong ''Breeder won't *give* me the puppy'' when it's very much a case of a breeder refusing to sell a puppy after changing their mind for whatever reason which is probably best known to themselves considering how emotionally charged the posts come across from the OP.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> OP isn't legally in the right really aren't they?!
> 
> They are actually onto a loser in terms of being offered the deposit back and refusing it in the hope that will get them the puppy. Citizens advice would tell you this, so would trading standards and any good solicitor worth their salt.
> 
> ...


i agree... 
i'll address the 2nd bolded bit first... generally, there would be a good reason a breeder will back out of a sale- it may not be a reason the potential buyer likes (and thats all they are at that point- a reserver/ potential owner) but a genuine reason none the less.

as for the first bolded statement, the dog warden and police have confirmed this to ME personally.
my Dexter is micro-chipped in someone elses' name- which makes me to scared to EVER let him off lead considering the environment he came from- without going in to too much detail, he was handed to a mutual acquaintance to re-home after the female owner fled the abusive home, unable to take her dog in to the hostel, but disappeared off the radar before the microchip details could be changed (the son of the owner flung Dexx against a wall by the leg because he was on a seat the boy wanted)
when i brought this up to the warden- after telling him of the medical bills we incurred in the first week of having him just to make him remotely healthy- he said that that alone with a letter from the vet would make him ours legally... but after 6-12 months he would undoubtedly be ours and no judge could rule against us in court to make us return him to the scum that previously owned him... i feel as bad for his female owner as i do for him because it is obvious he was loved by her, but severely abused by others in the house after she had to leave, but before she could get him out.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JeanGenie said:


> Read the cases below.


Read them. First two are not applicable to this case as they are not dealing with directly with the sale of property but stolen goods. The last link strengthens the case of the OP. Owner sold dog, wanted it back. Couldn't get it. Deposit is a form of contract for sale I believe in UK law.



kodakkuki said:


> i agree...
> i'll address the 2nd bolded bit first... generally, there would be a good reason a breeder will back out of a sale- it may not be a reason the potential buyer likes (and thats all they are at that point- a reserver/ potential owner) but a genuine reason none the less.


Legally don't know that holds any ground.



kodakkuki said:


> as for the first bolded statement, the dog warden and police have confirmed this to ME personally.


Let me tell you a true story about property from a long time ago.. I once found a bike in a ditch. After several days lying there I took it to the police station and my details were taken. A few months later the police came round (I was about 12 at the time) and gave me a ride to the police station. The bike was considered abandoned, nobody had claimed it and it was mine. The same thing happens with money etc.

Now compare the difference.. I take a bike off the street and keep it. Police pull me over.. I'm guilty of theft. You cannot claim possession is ownership.



JeanGenie said:


> The whole purpose of a deposit to secure a puppy is usually to stop the breeder being messed around by the buyer.


That's your definition, not necessarily the legal one. Legally it's also confirming the desire to sell "the property" and that the property will be available.



JeanGenie said:


> I'm afraid even the title of this thread is wrong ''Breeder won't *give* me the puppy'' when it's very much a case of a breeder refusing to sell a puppy after changing their mind for whatever reason which is probably best known to themselves considering how emotionally charged the posts come across from the OP.


I would guess it depends legally on when the agreement to sell occurs. I don't know 100% but my impression of contract law is putting a deposit down and accepting a deposit for it, is a sale and a contract. Given your 3rd example, if this is the case, the breeder would lose if it went to court.

We could argue about this "emotionally" of course. I can see why breeders may want to refuse to sell. However it's something which needs clarification for those who ask for deposits from a proper legal expert in contractual and trade law and adjustments may be required in thinking. If you have a valid reason why you want to back out, don't you want to ensure your thinking is correct rather than making assumptions?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Oh dear ....to be honest I don't take deposits and neither do I let puppy buyers choose their pup , I make decisions at around 7 weeks on stuff like show potential etc and then allocate them according to the homes I have lined up , I ALWAYS keep first pick of the litter ( I only breed for myself ) and then look at my waiting list for the rest. I rarely endorse either only if the pup has some kind of problem that should not be bred on from ( like a hernia) ....if I cannot trust the owners enough to have one of my pups without an endorsement then they simply do not have a pup. If I 'm not sure which pup to keep I'll run them on for a bit longer before I decide and my puppy buyers simply have to wait.

Yep some people do object but they are under no obligation to buy one of my pups ...as the breeder I'm the one that makes all the decisions about my litters.

My advice to the OP is to get her deposit back then put her name down for a really well bred show potential pup ...look via the breed clubs , Champdogs or the KC ABS breeders list.

Good luck !


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

JeanGenie said:


> OP isn't legally in the right really aren't they?!
> 
> They are actually onto a loser in terms of being offered the deposit back and refusing it in the hope that will get them the puppy. Citizens advice would tell you this, so would trading standards and any good solicitor worth their salt.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. It's a pleasure to read a post from someone who knows what they are talking abut and who is giving good advice. :thumbsup:


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> And you are about to read of another - me! If prospective owners live near I do it before they collect the puppy, but if they live a fair distance away I take the puppy to them and do it then.
> 
> In this day and age you can never be too careful - what seems like a perfectly decent couple can be a front for a puppy farm, or someone living in a squat who wants to either breed the dog willy nilly despite any endorsements, or sell the dog on (all tales that have been told to me by breeders I trust). There was even a warning going around at once time about a foreign-sounding man who was contacting border collie breeders wanting to buy two or three pups from a litter - it was suspected he wanted them as "training" animals for fighting dogs
> 
> ...


If I was buying a pup id love to find a breeder as dedicated and caring as you are towards the little tykes


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