# [email protected]



## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

In your opinion, is it bad to purchase small animals such as rabbits, hamsters & other rodents etc. from [email protected]?


----------



## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

I don't like [email protected] full stop. There's my answer!

Any further comment from me would undoubtedly be unpleasant to read


----------



## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

They come from rodent farms.

However I have bought from them in the past. Most of my hamsters are from their adoption section and are accidental litters, disabled or bite.


----------



## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

I wouldn't buy a guinea pig from pets at home again as the two that I have bought on separate occasions and a few years apart both got ill within a couple of days of having them. I adopted one from their adoption scheme and she was ill too, thought I was going to lose her but after a few vet visits and antibiotics she made it. I've had several hamsters from them but had a problem with one I adopted which turned out to be just a normal pets a home hamster that had escaped and they couldn't put it back in with the others so they put it in the adoption bit. It turned out that she had diabetes and I lost her at around 7 months old.


----------



## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

in a word YES

i do not support PAH full stop, they put profit before pets, despite what they say, if you want to buy from a pet store PAH is the last place i would recomend


----------



## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Sometimes its peoples only option for a pet, as there are not rescues or breeders in every area. It's unlikely I'd get more pets from there, but I wouldn't necessarily tell people to avoid it! Some are better than others.


----------



## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

they are fine as long as the person buying the animals etc from the shop know MORE than the assistants.


----------



## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

I've got 2 piggies from in there but not again. Was in tonight getting dog food and a woman was getting gerbils for her daughter.. The guy working in the shop had one out handling it for them to see but they looked so ill and greasy coated. So I said loudly to dad 'Wow look how ill those gerbils looks. Coats are all greasy and they look so lifeless.' The woman heard me (whole shop did :lol and she said 'No never mind we will think about it more..'

The shop opened the other week and they've had the same animals ever since. I feel so sorry for them and would love to take them all home (especialy the degus!) but it just encourages them. I feel awful thinking about what will happen to the ones in the shop if they don't get sold but where I live is a small town and people stick to what they know. The 2 pet shops here are known for selling healthy and correctly sexed animals so why would they risk going somewhere new. Same goes for the dog grooming places here. Small dog grooming salons here couldn't be doing better but PAH's salon is always empty and was shut today!!


----------



## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

From my own personal experience - I bought 3 guinea pigs from them - all were checked over by a vet before I had them and I have had them for 4 years now. Only 1 has needed veterinary treatment and that was because she scratched her own eye.

So I can't fault them - but obviously other people can.


----------



## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

yes it is,the one local to me has animals that are quite clearly too young to be there,
it depresses me to go in there,the animals look so sad and have no privacy,none of the cages they sell are big enough for any of the animals in there.
the staff also know nothing about the animals,as i work for an animal charity i take great pleasure in telling them the info they are telling people is wrong.
also once when i was in there,there was a woman with a chihuahua,who she was picking up and letting it attack the degus through the bars and scratch the glass of the rabbits,also she was holding it over the guinea enclosure,i told 2 memebers of staff who were not bothered in the slightest!!!!!


----------



## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't agree with buying animals from any pet shop, not just [email protected] Being able to buy an animal from a shop encourages people to think of animals as commodities, goods that can be bought off the shelf and then returned or disposed of when they get 'boring' or ill.

Also, the animals sold in pet shops are generally very badly bred. There is no thought put into breeding for health, only for as many numbers as possible. The amount of animals that are already ill when they come into the shops from the suppliers is disgraceful.


----------



## hobo99 (Aug 18, 2008)

owieprone said:


> they are fine as long as the person buying the animals etc from the shop know MORE than the assistants.


And that would NOT be difficult .


----------



## feathers (Jul 21, 2010)

I got my gerbils from there because it was the only place in the county that did them. I cannot find any breeders in Norfolk, just accidental hamster pregnancies and they are few and far between. I got my hamster from Jolleys which is another pet shop chain, but a lot smaller and more pet focused.

The adoption centre is a load of .... They take one animal from the litter and put it in the boxes.

At my local there is a single degu in a cage on his own, always going mad chewing the bars. It makes me so sad 

I am tempted to have a go at breeding myself, and see if there is the demand here. It wouldn't be for a few years but maybe when I finish uni, just to see if I can improve the pet care here.


----------



## Cherpi (Nov 19, 2010)

Mine isn't too bad other then there are 6 degus in a cage built for about 3... The animals look quite happy tbh although I would never buy them, wish I could but nah. I'd say there are worse places out there tbh.


----------



## Petitepuppet (May 30, 2009)

There is no excuse for buyin a pet shop animal! Its very sad that a lot of us know where these animals come for and still buy them.


----------



## catloveralicia (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't like to buy anything from [email protected] anymore, animals or pet items. The people who work there don't seem to know much about the animals. I have got guinea-pigs from there before, one of them was pregnant when I got her, but fortunately the other one is still alive and well, but I won't buy from them again, especially now I know where they get the animals from.


----------



## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

I wouldn't buy from PAH or a petshop now as they buy their animals from rodent farms. No matter how much I wanted a pet I couldnt do it, as its supporting the trade and allowing yet more animals to be brought into this world through cruelty and neglect. 

Id rather be without.


----------



## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

Petitepuppet said:


> There is no excuse for buyin a pet shop animal! Its very sad that a lot of us know where these animals come for and still buy them.


At least I bought my Guinea Pigs from them - knowing how to look after them - rather than letting somebody buy them who had no idea how to care for them!

I don't think I'm 'sad' because I saved them from being mistreated by someone else!


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't buy an animal from PAH they're all from rodent mills and most end up sick or pregnant because they can't be bothered or don't know how to sex them. Everytime I go in I see rabbits almost identical to Leo he's 2 now they must still be breeding that same line or whatever. I would only buy a rodent from a breeder or rescue now

Besides I prefer buying an animal from people who have at least an idea about their basic care I've never met a shop assistant in there who knew what they were talking about


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Very definitely, they are bought in from the equivalent of small animal "puppy farms." Animals of any description should not be sold from shops. In my opinion.


----------



## Daisymoo (Apr 14, 2010)

CAstbury said:


> At least I bought my Guinea Pigs from them - knowing how to look after them - rather than letting somebody buy them who had no idea how to care for them!
> 
> I don't think I'm 'sad' because I saved them from being mistreated by someone else!


I totally agree with you! How can we be sad for giving one of these animals a happy and loving home. I got my syrian hamster, Marley, from Pets @ Home and yes I will admit he was very nervous when I first brought him home but I managed to tame him very quickly andnow he is nearly 2 and he is the most cuddly and loving hamster u could want. How can anyone say that I shouldn't have got him and that he should have been left in the petshop with not ever knowing a forever home is just talking rubbish!


----------



## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Daisymoo said:


> IHow can anyone say that I shouldn't have got him and that he should have been left in the petshop with not ever knowing a forever home is just talking rubbish!


It's personal choice, but for every pet bought from these places, it just free's up a spot for another one to be bought in 

I think it's far better to adopt from a rescue or do a bit of work and source a local breeder. There are lot's of small animal clubs around. Anyone looking for a Syrian hamster could look here for example ~ Home - National Hamster Council

Sure it's a bit more effort than buying from a shop, but at least you won't be supporting rodent farms ...


----------



## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

When a proportion of the animals in their adoption 'bit' are from their own stock, it begs the question why? 

If we ask why, will we get an honest answer?

The animals rehomed there raise money for charities doing a good job. Do the animals rehomed from pets at home receive the same welfare consideration as those that benefit from them? A good question. 

My experience when i considered rehoming a pair of bunnies... Do you vaccinate? 'No' Why not? Because it's your responsibility. Oh? My next question... These are boys. Will you castrate them? No. Why not? We can't spend the charity's money on expensive things like that. So what happens if they start fighting before they are rehomed? We'll sperate them. Oh? Well i can't support that. The money donated for these rabbits will enhance the lives of those in other charities but the welfare of these animals is basically sacrificed in the process?


This retailer introduced rabbit vaccinations and promptly withdrew them in order to sell more rabbits, according to the licensing representative from the local council for a particular store. They withdrew what is an essential disease prevention because they sold so few rabbits. 'Where Pets Come First?'
Welfare before profit?

Make your own minds up, each to their own, freedom of choice and all that.


When a retailer shows that they are responsible and concerned more with welfare than profit, then i will change my opinion of them. Until then...

Make mine chocolate!


----------



## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

CAstbury said:


> I don't think I'm 'sad' because I saved them from being mistreated by someone else!


Not trying to have a go or anything, but what about the guinea pigs that were ordered in to replace the ones you bought?

It's nice to think that when you buy an animal from a pet shop you are 'saving' it from a worse fate, but in reality you're simply funding an organisation that is going to cause even more suffering. You're keeping the cycle going.

It's not easy to walk away from the cute faces, but the fact is that if more people did walk away then the shops wouldn't order as many animals in, which means the suppliers wouldn't breed as many as there wouldn't be enough demand, and consequently fewer animals suffer in the rodent farms.

There are more than enough animals waiting in rescue centres for good homes, no one _needs_ to buy an animal from a shop.


----------



## davidc (Dec 15, 2010)

I did buy from PAH, but I didn't know about rodent farms.
I've bought toys and a gerbilarium from there, plus my sister's boyfriend bought Storm from there, though she has lived to nearly 3 years though she is showing signs of old age these days. I got Ebony cos she was 8 months old and nobody wanted her, she was alone because she'd killed her cagemate, which could have been prevented if they didn't just put animals back in the tank when a customer returns them. She also didn't have enough bedding, and as I discovered, she really loves digging! She didn't have that opportunity before I got her.

PAH are also, I've since discovered, notorious for sexing animals, Storm was supposed to be a boy, but she wasn't, which resulted in Sandy and Dusky being born (Sandy the older one). Dusky died early at just under 14 months old, but Sandy is still going strong.


----------



## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

magpie said:


> Not trying to have a go or anything, but what about the guinea pigs that were ordered in to replace the ones you bought?
> 
> It's nice to think that when you buy an animal from a pet shop you are 'saving' it from a worse fate, but in reality you're simply funding an organisation that is going to cause even more suffering. You're keeping the cycle going.
> 
> ...


Hang on a minute! So you are saying that if I (and other people) didn't buy guinea pigs from [email protected] then the cycle would stop? No it wouldn't - ALL the rodent farms would do is sell abroad and the animals would be eaten.

As regards animals in rescue centres - I do voluntary work for Labrador Rescue and I am amazed how many of the other volunteers breed! Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

So your theory that rodent farms would cease trading - surely goes for ALL breeders - irrelevant of what type of animal?

Even though the Labrador breeders I know, through the rescue, make intensive checks of where their puppies are going and do their best to ensure a 'forever home' - I am aware of at least 3 that have been mistreated/given up for rescue.

So I think i do my bit for animal rescue - so please don't criticise me without knowing the facts!


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Having the law changed to abolish rodent farms would be a good idea, make it as taboo as puppy farms, but enough people need to be against it to even think about having things changed. (and yes, I know puppy farm operations still go on, but at least the general public are disgusted enough to try and steer clear) 
I won't buy from pet shops, nor will I breed. There are plenty of animals in rescue that need homes already. [email protected] don't need me to line their pockets. Pets come first indeed


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't see why it would be hypocritical to be a good breeder and I mean breed for health and temperment try to ensure your babies go to the best forever homes and work in rescue as well. Certainly a lot of dog breeders help out with their breed rescues.

There are a lot of people don't care about buying from puppy mills and a lot of people see small furries as inferior somehow so mightn't care. There does need to be more education about it though


----------



## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

My goodness. Quite some opinions.

I think it is acceptable to work in animal care, paid or unpaid and still breed animals if you want to. There is no law against it, but there is law to regulate it. I help thousands of animals, teach in animal care and i also enjoy breeding hamsters for example. I find them good homes and they are well handled, well adjusted pets.

of course you have no control of a pet once it is out of your ownership. All we can be is responsible. We are not responsible for other peoples' actions.

Rodent farms are awful, i agree. Not all pet shops use them. Some breeding centres in this country choose to be regulated and as such are licensed and inspected. I do feel the regulation needs updating however. This is something that is in progress at present. Nationally, pet welfare legislation is being improved all the time. It's a slow process but it is happening.

I would like to comment to those who have issues with these places that breed and sell animals and would like to see an end to it....

'Have you done anything other than not buying pets to help improve the situation? If you tackle the issue at a local level, this can expand to be tackled at a national level. Nothing will change without a lot of noise, backed up with evidence and suggestions for improvement' If it is something that you want to change, make it happen! Anything is possible. It just needs to be realistic.

Breeding animals and working in animal care and welfare do not necessarily have to conflict.


----------



## CAstbury (Oct 24, 2010)

My point regarding breeding is that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of animals needing good homes - yet people KEEP on breeding and compounding the problem.

Just because an animal has a good pedigree/rearing doesn't mean that it is going to be looked after well. Likewise - just because people pay alot of money for an animal doesn't mean to say it is going to be cared for properly.

During my 'work' for Lab Rescue, I have witnessed a number of people who have paid good money for a dog with good pedigree and then not walked it, vaccinated it, microchipped it and asked for it to be re-homed when it has become an inconvenience. My most annoying case was a couple who bought a puppy, then decided to have a baby and this resulted in the dog, at 15 months old, spending most of the day in a crate because they didn't want it near the child. Because we couldn't find it a home within 4 days (yes FOUR days) - I got abuse hurled at me 

My point is - that irrelvant of where an animal comes from, it is surely more important that it is well looked after?


----------



## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

Absolutely, all animals should be looked after. 

Let's say everyone stopped breeding. What a sad place it would be with no animals. It's not going to happen in the forseeable future and why should it?

It comes down to what you have already said. Responsible owners. So surely, education, education, education.

I have issues with the pet trade.. major issues. I also have come to the conclusion that change will happen if it needs to and if enough is said.. enough is proved and enough is heard. Highlight the issues you have to the relevant parties and change will come. At some point it will come.

An example. 3 years i've worked at improving pet shop vending regulation for rabbits. A hell of a lot of hard work, a hell of a lot of noise and a hell of a lot of evidence and now this is a national issue, being discussed by government advisory bodies and i'm involved in discussions early next year in relation to this.

My passion and commitment is second to none. I cannot tackle everything alone and all at once. Do the animals you worry about a favour and be a very loud voice for them. We can all make a difference

In the meantime, i will continue to educate, enjoy pets and breed lovely little hamsters :thumbup:


----------



## RetroLemons (Nov 11, 2010)

Best quote I read you can see the whole thread here.



> Take battery farmed chickens, those chickens are going to be killed anyway, people are going to buy those chickens anyway, so why shouldn't you? Granted you aren't going to save it if it's dead anyway but if it's dead anyway what does it matter if you buy it or not? It matters because it sends a message to the suppliers that it's ok to behave like that, that you support and condone their behaviour and treatment of the animals and that you will buy their 'product' no matter how badly they treated it. I genuinely think that giving these people money is just paying them to be horrid to animals on your behalf. If you wouldn't buy a battery chicken, then why buy a battery rat?


I won't buy from petshops because I cant bear the thought of saving one life whilst allowing several more to be brought into the world in a cruel manner. Trying to help the majority over the minority. I buy one, I allow another litter of say 12 rats? I cant save those 12 and for all I know they might go to god awful homes, and be severely neglected.

If you do read the thread you will probably notice at one point I was unsure on my own ethics towards petshops!


----------



## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

Well said!

and i'd like to add something else which you have just touched on... you call the animals products....

It's true. they are a product. That's how they are viewed, as dictated by the legislation which regulates the sale of *PET* animals.

Those animals which are bred for pet shops are not classed as pets. They are, technically, a product and are treated as such. A pet is only classed as a pet in the eyes of the law, when it is sold as a pet, to someone who will care for it as a pet. A pet shop is purchasing a product. Therefore, 'rodent farms' as they are referred to, and the like, supplying to pet shops, do not require to be licensed under the same legislation which regulates the sale of pet animals, unless they sell directly to the public. They can choose to be but they absolutely do not have to be.

Look up the definition of pet. This varies, but is generally along the same lines.

'A domesticated animal kept for companionship or entertainment and treated with fondness'

So, it may seem that legally, some breeders escape legislation by running 'rodent farms' as they are referred to, as there is no legislation. It may appear so, apart from the fact that general animal welfare laws apply as they do to anyone owning any animal. so, any welfare issues can be dealt with if they are identified.

Has anyone ever asked a large retailer where they get their animals from? Has anyone ever had an answer? Do you think they don't tell us because they are aware the standards might be questioned and make them look bad through association? If they don't tell us, might it be because they want to protect the supplier from criticism or animal rights activists etc? If the standards are high and the 'products' are ethically 'sourced', there would be no reason for concern from the welfare conscious.... not telling us is bound to raise concern and suspicion.

So, i believe we have two main issues.

1. legislation of live pet sales is too easy to evade
2. legislation of live pet sales requires to be updated and improved.


----------



## zany_toon (Jan 30, 2009)

I will admit to buying a total of 14 mice from pet shops, all from small independent ones who either breed their own or got sourced their mice from local breeders - something that I made sure to check whilst I was there. I've even been to one of those pet shops a year apart and spoken to the woman responsible for breeding them on both occasions, she was very nice, and knew what she was doing. They have all been very healthy although one had been bullied and has had a few issues since I brought her home as a result of the stress. In regards to [email protected] I've never seen any animals in the ones in Scotland I've been to that would lead me to be concerned about their welfare as they all look very healthy and have been fairly well handled (wouldn't buy fish from them though, only because they circulate the tank water between all the tanks instead of keeping them as isolated units and it causes a lot of loss due to spread of any minor ailments and disease!) The thing with rodents though is that mice (the rodents I would be looking for) are considered as products even by most breeders. A number of them even state that on their own websites, which leads to the litters being culled by the breeder to managable numbers to provide a healthier product. If I were pushed to, I would be comfortable buying from [email protected], although I would much, much rather aim to rehome an animal who has ended up in a shelter through no fault of it's own


----------



## magpie (Jan 3, 2009)

squeaker said:


> Has anyone ever asked a large retailer where they get their animals from? Has anyone ever had an answer?


I've seen a couple of pictures of the animal housing at a [email protected] supplier, and a few months ago I was on a course with one of the vets that inspects the supplier. He was insistant that the standards there are good, and certainly the pictures seemed to reflect that. I also know that they have inspections several times a year by several different vets.

However I do find it difficult to reconcile this with what I see day to day, which is lots of poorly [email protected] animals being brought over to us at the vets. The only expanation I can think of is that while the suppliers are keeping the animals fairly well and ticking the boxes, they're still breeding by just putting two random animals together, regardless of whether they're from healthy lines or not, which is causing health problems to continue. Either that or the hygeine in the shop is so bad that it's making the animals sick...


----------



## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

As someone who works in Animal Care education, I recently contacted a licensed pet shop supplier, asking if i could carry out some continued professional development hours with them.

Did i get invited? No. Did i even get a response? No.

So, what am i supposed to think? That they don't want me there because they are busy? 

So, what happens next?

Anyone concerned enough to take on the challenge of changing things?


----------



## nattymariax (Sep 1, 2010)

i got Cinnamon from the [email protected] adoption section before i was a member on here and knew about the farms. I doin't agree with what they do and would never buy an animal from them but do however buy Cinnamon's food and treats from there. 

I always find myself going in when I drive past (it's right next to me!) and find it sad to see parents go in with their 3 year olds and just chose any old pet which I just know is going to be neglected and mistreated  I don't think animals (even rodents) should be that readily available...people need to be educated on now to look after them properly before they are allowed to take them. 

I think the adoption programme also encourages owners who have bought animals and have decided after a few weeks they cannot be bothered anymore that they can just easily return them to the shop and forget about them.



that's my opinion but like i said i still buy my hamster's food and cage accessories from there


----------



## Terr (Mar 2, 2010)

Wow this thread grew!

I have to admit that my very first hamster (when I was 8) was from [email protected] At least I think it was, I only remember that we went to a big pet store and that's the only chain of pet stores I've ever known about.

The question that always springs into mind is why such large and prominent companies are allowed to get away with 'sourcing' their animals from farms? This isn't politics after all, we're not talking about Trident here. Surely if someone like [email protected] were to adopt more ethical methods, other establishments would follow. They'd run less ethical stores out of business and help breeders while they're at it. Is business really such an ugly world? Am I being too naive? :lol:


----------



## squeaker (Nov 29, 2010)

I've just been into my local PAH and the bearded dragon i commented on a couple of weeks ago on here looks liked it's dead.

I reported the store because the lizard had no water and a poorly eye but was not noted as not for sale which would indicate someone was aware it was in need of treatment. The RSPCA, as far as i know, did visit.

a couple of days later, this lizard and one other tank with 2 in were NOT FOR SALE.

Today, tht same lizard had no water and looked dead. I couldn't see it breathing and it was flat out on the floor, legs splayed out, eyes closed. 

A member of staff was called over and told us it was alive, he checked it 5 minutes ago. I said are you sure, it's not breathing. He said the vet had treated it for a poorly eye and it had no water because it was being force fed. He also said that it was going to die. The two others were going back to the supplier to be looked after! When? Two weeks ago would have been good! and why the hell they don't just put that poor lizard out of it's suffering i don't know. It looked proper dead to me today anyway. Poor poor animals.

What can i say. I do have pictures from today. Blackberry specials i'm calling them. 

So, ......... breeders fault or pets at homes fault? Sick animals galore in there. Why? And something that ill (or dead) should be appropriately euthanased to prevent further suffering.

I hate seeing this!!!!


----------

