# Should I adopt ex-breeding queens?



## Clare001 (Sep 12, 2011)

Hi all, would really like some advice here. 

I would really like to adopt two cats, and have found two lovely burmese who need a home. They are 3 years old and ex-breeding queens, now neutered.

What difference will it make that they are ex-breeding queens? Will it affect their temperament? Will they have a different body shape?

Please forgive my ignorance - I have not owned cats before but I am really keen to make sure I make the right decision.

Clare


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I think that it's great that you want to adopt two older girls :thumbsup:
Their body shape should remain the same after spaying and as for their temperament they may not change at all or may become more placid. Burmese are very sociable cats and if these two have always been together I can see no real problems in taking them on. Two of my earliest Siamese were retired queens and both were absolutely adorable and very loving.
Oh and welcome to the forum by the way


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## Etienne (Dec 8, 2010)

Good luck if you go ahead with it and good on you for taking on adult cats


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

I can't help on the question of ex-breeding queens, but just wanted to say that I have 2 burmese brothers (neutered). They are the most loving, playful, sociable and entertaining cats I have ever known - I can't imagine my ever having a non burmese cat after these two. I love them to bits - we are a family with two teenagers and they are the babies of the family. My 17 year old son, who is far too old for cuddling his mum, will cuddle cats till the cows come home. 

If they're like mine the fact that they're 3 years old won't make much different. Mine are now 7 and they still romp and play and have mad chases like kittens. They're so close to each other and to us and have brought us so much pleasure. If they're anything like our babies, go for it, you won't regret it.


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

I hope you do rehome these two cats, as ex breeding females they deserve a loving forever pet home.  (I hate the way breeders just discard cats they no longer want to breed, speaks volumes ). As people have said above, Burmese cats have the most wonderful nature, and make wonderful pets. You will adore them. 

The only downside I can think of,due to them being they ex queens who have had litters, and spayed late in life, they are at a higher risk of developing mammary cancer. If female cats are spayed at 6 months before being allowed to have litters, it almost rules out mammary cancer altogether. Any cat spayed over 2 years old, has no protection from this cancer, which early spaying offers!

"Protective Factors

Early spay is the single most significant protective factor. Spaying before age 6 months results in a 91% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 1 year results in an 86% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 2 years leads to an 11% reduction in risk. Having given birth to kittens has no effect on mammary cancer risk. Spaying after age 2 years does not reduce the risk of mammary cancer development at all".

80% of mammary tumours are malignant, sadly. And is a fairly common cancer in female cats who have not been spayed, or spayed later in life.

Sorry, I don't want to scare you, but you did ask!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> 80% of mammary tumours are malignant, sadly. And is a fairly common cancer in female cats who have not been spayed, or spayed later in life


Have you got a link to anything with the figures - x per thousand or something like that. When you say it's a 'fairly common' cancer does that mean more common than others or is there really a high rate. There's nothing in what you quote which gives a real picture as all those figures are just relative to each other. I'm wondering if I and every other breeder I know have just been very lucky. Maybe there's a genetic element.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kittenshavemittens said:


> (I hate the way breeders just discard cats they no longer want to breed, speaks volumes ).


That is hardly fair. If you want to move on through the generations you simply have to rehome, otherwise you end up with ridiculous numbers of cats and a welfare situation somewhere down the line. Breeding queens have a pecking order which depends on the number of litters they have had, and once spayed they rapidly go down the pecking order, the top cat could become the bottom cat quite quickly and that will cause her stress. If she is rehomed while still young to a pet home, that doesn't happen. Please don't imagine that rehoming our cats is something we take lightly, it isn't, it is very difficult. I am going to have to rehome some of my adults before the Spring and I am not looking forward to it at all.



> As people have said above, Burmese cats have the most wonderful nature, and make wonderful pets. You will adore them.


Certainly agree with this one!



> Early spay is the single most significant protective factor. Spaying before age 6 months results in a 91% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 1 year results in an 86% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 2 years leads to an 11% reduction in risk. Having given birth to kittens has no effect on mammary cancer risk. Spaying after age 2 years does not reduce the risk of mammary cancer development at all".


That's interesting because with humans, early childbearing has a major protective effect against breast cancer. Still, the risk is surely still low and if pet insurance is taken out, any financial implications are covered. I have been breeding for 19 years, have only rarely rehomed an adult so far, and have never yet had a cat with mammary cancer.

Liz


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## kelly-joy (Oct 14, 2008)

It really depends on the cat you adopting,their own personality, the way they have been treated in the past etc. You are more likely to have problems with them if they have come from a dodgy back street breeder who keeps them outside where they hardly get any attention to one that has come from a home where they get all the attention they want. 
The only thing that I have noticed from being a re homing coordinator for many years that can be an issue with ex breeding stock is that they tend to have a higher risk of spraying in the house, but that isn't the case for every ex breeding cat though.
At the end of the day they are two cats that need and home and if you are willing to give them a home, it shouldn't really matter where they have come from.
Its also important to know that even the worse treated cat can bloom in the right home,so if you want them and are prepared to put the work in then I would go for it 
Good luck with whatever you decide


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## missye87 (Apr 4, 2011)

Storm is an ex-stud and we are so blessed to have him! I would adopt ex-studs and queens without a seconds hesitation again, at the end of the day you are also getting a cat considered to be at the top of the league in terms or looks and personality of the breed, as those are the traits breeders want to pass on to kittens!


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

havoc said:


> Have you got a link to anything with the figures - x per thousand or something like that. When you say it's a 'fairly common' cancer does that mean more common than others or is there really a high rate. There's nothing in what you quote which gives a real picture as all those figures are just relative to each other. I'm wondering if I and every other breeder I know have just been very lucky. Maybe there's a genetic element.


It is a fairly common cancer in unspayed females, or later in life spayed cats. Who have had KITTENS.

"In cats, mammary cancer is the third most common cancer, with the most common victim being a senior female cat around age 10 to 12 years." (Quote from second link, since you want me to back up what I say).

Google it, if you don't believe me. But I will give you a couple of links to get you started:

WSAVA 2001 - Prognostic Factors for Canine and Feline Mammary Cancer

01 Mammary Cancer in Cats - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

lizward said:


> That is hardly fair. If you want to move on through the generations you simply have to rehome, otherwise you end up with ridiculous numbers of cats and a welfare situation somewhere down the line. Breeding queens have a pecking order which depends on the number of litters they have had, and once spayed they rapidly go down the pecking order, the top cat could become the bottom cat quite quickly and that will cause her stress. If she is rehomed while still young to a pet home, that doesn't happen. Please don't imagine that rehoming our cats is something we take lightly, it isn't, it is very difficult. I am going to have to rehome some of my adults before the Spring and I am not looking forward to it at all.
> 
> Yes, I realise the reason they are rehomed.
> 
> ...


It is NOT a protective factor in cats, it is as you say in humans though. BUT NOT CATS!

Maybe you haven't SEEN any of your queens get mammary cancer because you rehome them when they are no longer able to have litters????? Or they rarely live beyond 10 year old? I am shocked you have been breeding for 19 years, and are unware of the facts of mammary cancer in cats  

"In cats, mammary cancer is the third most common cancer, with the most common victim being a senior female cat around age 10 to 12 years."

"Early spay is the single most significant protective factor. Spaying before age 6 months results in a 91% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 1 year results in an 86% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 2 years leads to an 11% reduction in risk. Having given birth to kittens has no effect on mammary cancer risk. Spaying after age 2 years does not reduce the risk of mammary cancer development at all."

I REALLY suggest you read the link where the above info is confirmed (this is not my opinion it is FACT).:

01 Mammary Cancer in Cats - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Pet insurance is a great thing to have, but cancers like this are very aggressive in cats and the prognosis is rarely good.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Maybe you haven't SEEN any of your queens get mammary cancer because you rehome them when they are no longer able to have litters????? Or they rarely live beyond 10 year old? I am shocked you have been breeding for 19 years, and are unware of the facts of mammary cancer in cats


I don't rehome as a matter of course and my oldest (ex-breeding)cat lived to just short of 20. None have had mammary cancer. I'm not arguing with any of the figures you give, just pointing out that they are meaningless on their own. So, it's the third most common but how common is that? It could be extremely rare - I simply can't tell from any of the articles you've quoted. How many cats are diagnosed in the UK each year? Those percentages are only relevant to that figure judged against the total number of cats who have had litters.


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

havoc said:


> I don't rehome as a matter of course and my oldest (ex-breeding)cat lived to just short of 20. None have had mammary cancer. I'm not arguing with any of the figures you give, just pointing out that they are meaningless on their own. So, it's the third most common but how common is that? It could be extremely rare - I simply can't tell from any of the articles you've quoted. How many cats are diagnosed in the UK each year? Those percentages are only relevant to that figure judged against the total number of cats who have had litters.


I have worked in a vets surgery, and KNOW it is a fairly common cancer. Cancer of any kind in cats, is not RARE. Cats suffer cancer at a pretty high rate, and nearly all cancers are particularly aggressive in cats.
You can argue with the facts if you want.

And unfortunately my rescue cat that I adopted, had to be pts at 17 due to mammary cancer. I got her spayed when I adopted her, but her spay was too late in life to offer any protection from this cancer. So, I really know what I am talking about here.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have worked in a vets surgery, and KNOW it is a fairly common cancer. Cancer of any kind in cats, is not RARE. Cats suffer cancer at a pretty high rate, and cancer is particularly agressive in cats


So how many cats in the area covered by the vets you worked in had mammary cancer against the total number of cats no matter whether they were ever brought to your surgery or not? That would be a relevant figure. Only seeing sick cats gives you a very distorted picture. It's not unlike police officers who only get to deal with criminals in their working life. If they only took the people they had contact with into account as a percentage of the population engaged in criminal activity it would be just a touch skewed.


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## lulubel (Apr 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> So how many cats in the area covered by the vets you worked in had mammary cancer against the total number of cats no matter whether they were ever brought to your surgery or not? That would be a relevant figure.


I'd be interested to know this too, even though I have no interest in breeding. Saying a risk is "high", "low", "moderate", etc is meaningless because all those terms are relative. The only way someone can assess the risks for their particular cat is to know the percentage of female cats (and in fact, the percentage of late spayed cats) who are diagnosed with this cancer at any given age.


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

havoc said:


> So how many cats in the area covered by the vets you worked in had mammary cancer against the total number of cats no matter whether they were ever brought to your surgery or not? That would be a relevant figure. Only seeing sick cats gives you a very distorted picture. It's not unlike police officers who only get to deal with criminals in their working life. If they only took the people they had contact with into account as a percentage of the population engaged in criminal activity it would be just a touch skewed.


Lol, so you will provide figures to argue against me? Why am I having to provide figures, but not you? 

I cannot just give you figures, just like that, from my particular area. It takes time, and needs authorisation/ collation from a vet surgery. 

I have had my own cat suffer from this cancer, so hardly a distorted picture. Actually, the numbers will be even higher, as not everyone takes their cat to a vet, think of all the cats that die from this cancer which are unknown to have suffered. 

Google it yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't believe me 

Anyway, I have given the facts, people can do what they will with them. Run with the facts, or bury their heads in the sand.


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

lulubel said:


> I'd be interested to know this too, even though I have no interest in breeding. Saying a risk is "high", "low", "moderate", etc is meaningless because all those terms are relative. The only way someone can assess the risks for their particular cat is to know the percentage of female cats (and in fact, the percentage of late spayed cats) who are diagnosed with this cancer at any given age.


Google it!!!

I have provided links already (did you read them?), but there is a wealth of info you can find for yourself online from veterinary sites, who have done the research already.


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## missye87 (Apr 4, 2011)

I have no information in relation to mammary cancer, but when Sooty passed away, the lady who I spoke to specialised in cancers in cats and dogs specifically, and she did say that the amount of cases of cancer in general are on the rise, but mainly because our animals are living longer than before. 

Now I sincerely think we should stop de-railing this thread, it's rude and the person asked for advice, not to get shared sh*tless about various cancers. Any further constructive information for the OP?


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

missye87 said:


> I have no information in relation to mammary cancer, but when Sooty passed away, the lady who I spoke to specialised in cancers in cats and dogs specifically, and she did say that the amount of cases of cancer in general are on the rise, but mainly because our animals are living longer than before.
> 
> Now I sincerely think we should stop de-railing this thread, it's rude and the person asked for advice, not to get shared sh*tless about various cancers. Any further constructive information for the OP?


It was you and Havoc that asked me to post facts and figures, which would derail the thread 

The facts are the facts, if you bothered to read them.  And you are the one coming across rude, not me!

And imo my info was an important consideration.


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## Ozcat (Sep 1, 2011)

kittenshavemittens said:


> "In cats, mammary cancer is the third most common cancer, with the most common victim being a senior female cat around age 10 to 12 years."
> 
> "Early spay is the single most significant protective factor. Spaying before age 6 months results in a 91% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 1 year results in an 86% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 2 years leads to an 11% reduction in risk. Having given birth to kittens has no effect on mammary cancer risk. Spaying after age 2 years does not reduce the risk of mammary cancer development at all."


These figures are taken from a study by Overley et al (2005) and the title of the paper is "Association between ovarihysterectomy and feline mammary carcinoma". The number of cats in the study was 308. Whilst the figures indicate that mammary carcinoma is more prevalent in older cats, it also indicates that some cats spayed at less than one year of age develop the disease as well. Even male cats can develop mammary carcinoma. There are always risks. It is worth noting that the study also listed breed disposition and progestin exposure as risk factors to the development of the disease.

Despite this research, I would not let it put me off adopting an older cat that had been spayed at an older age. How many cats in shelters are adults that have been spayed at a later age? Plenty of people adopt them and if they were not adopted they would be put to sleep. I agree that it is wise to be prepared in case of possible disease, but don't let one concern cloud over the whole decision making process.

An advantage in adopting these two retired breeders is that (so long as they come from a responsible breeder) the pedigrees of the ancestors are recorded and the breeder would know if there are any inherited diseases in the pedigree. There may have even been genetic tests carried out to rule out certain diseases.

Good luck with your two new arrivals, Burmese cats make wonderful companions.


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## sarahecp (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi Clare and welcome to the forum 

I think it's great that you are thinking of adopting 2 older cats, I wish you all the best if you go ahead  

I adopted my Frankie nearly 3 years ago, he is around 6 years old and my boy before was Timmy (r.i.p) we were told that he was around 6 yrs when we got him, but when he was very poorly the vet said he was more than likely to be about 12 yrs.


Keep us posted


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## missye87 (Apr 4, 2011)

kittenshavemittens said:


> It was you and Havoc that asked me to post facts and figures, which would derail the thread
> 
> The facts are the facts, if you bothered to read them.  And you are the one coming across rude, not me!
> 
> And imo my info was an important consideration.


Excuse me, but if you go back and check my post, nowhere do I ask for facts and figures, and I am not being rude, on the contrary, I think you are being overtly argumentative and have completely derailed the thread that the OP started.

Yes, of course it is a consideration I haven't said anything against it, however I do think that you can't live your life by the what ifs. Would I have not got Sooty if I had known that he would develop an aggressive bone cancer at the age of 14, taking him away from me in less than two months? No, I wouldn't have changed my time with him for the world, and I think it's a crappy excuse to avoid creating a meaningful relationship with human or animal throughout our entire lifetime.

Now please, just give in, leave it alone, and if you want to continue the argument please go ahead and start another thread.


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## kittenshavemittens (Sep 1, 2011)

missye87 said:


> Now please, just give in, leave it alone, and if you want to continue the argument please go ahead and start another thread.


I did, look!!!! To keep from derailing this thread!


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## lizzykaty (Jan 24, 2011)

i have 2 x breeding cats (ragdolls) when we got them they were terrified as they were kept outside and the breeder did bring them into the house but were kept in a dog crate, they took alot of work to get them to where they are now, but they run and hide if a stranger comes into the house but still they have there gentle nature. 
i have heard that if they spray then even after neutering they can still spray! mine dont though so not sure if this is true. but i say go for it, i would change mine abit


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