# help !!!!



## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Hi I am having a bit of a worry my Rottweiler Chelsea who had a litter of 6 puppies Cross mastiffs last year (1 stillborn) had her last heat mid June I was not preparing breed her but my frien has 2 male Dogue de bordeuax 1 has been neautered but the other one had'nt we normally walk the dogs togethet every morn apart from when chelsea on heat I diddn't bring her out again until it was her 23rd day there was no sigms of blood at all and she last became pregnant on about thr 18th day so I felt safe but when we were walking through the park the dogue de bordeux jumped on her back we shouted but it was too late he tied for literally 2 mins so I thought that maybe nothing would come of it but I have kept a close eye on her this happened on the 30th of june so if she was pregnant her whelping date would be 2nd of September she ha not put on any weight but she is constantly licking her vulva and teats and her teats are producing a milky looking substance . With her first pragnancy she was really big this is why it is a bit baffling I am thinking maybe it is a phantom pregnancy but she has never had one before . So if anybody can offer some help I would be very grateful


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

If only you'd have come on here earlier, you would have been told about the mismate jab, which is the best option really for unplanned pregnancies, the risk to the bitch is minimal.

You have a couple of options, neither is really that nice really, you could have an emergency spay, which sounds awful, but the second option is to allow your girl to possibly go ahead with the whelping and that isn't without it's dangers. Competent breeders with many years experience have lost bitches and puppies, it isn't sadly as uncommon as you would hope. 

If you can get hold of someone who scans (ask for sheep scanners in your area) you may be able to ascertain whether there are any pups in there tucked up out of the way or not, and then decide a course of action. Bitches have two uterine horns, and it is possible for a few pups to remain tucked up out of the way, although it is rare for bitches not to show at all with a bit of extra padding! 

Apologies if that sounds harsh, my advice would be to go for the first option, not only because of the risks to your girl allowing her to go through whelping, but also because there are so many unwanted pups in rescue, bringing more of this sort of unplanned cross breed into the world is really the last thing rescue organisations want to see happening. I also assume as you haven't planned to breed, there are no health tests in place? 

Sorry to sound negative, but I do hope your girl comes through this ok, the best thing for her would be if it's just a phantom, which, once you've got that sorted, I'd suggest having her spayed, as long as she's old enough


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

If u had taken her 2 the vet when this first happened she could have had the mismate jab to ensure there was no litter of pups, a tad late now though if she is carrying pups 

I really hope its a phantom and would suggest she is spayed as SL says 2 many cross breeds in rescue already!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/119154-my-babys-pregnant.html

Please read this before giving advice to OP, she should know exactly what to do as has been in this situation before. Unbelievable :cursing:


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

bearcub said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/119154-my-babys-pregnant.html
> 
> Please read this before giving advice to OP, she should know exactly what to do as has been in this situation before. Unbelievable :cursing:


wow, the date of that thread is today's date...last year!


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

I no i totally agree with both of you the mismate jab would have been the best option especially as I am.hoping to.move the middle of October but obviously Chelsea comes first


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

Oh boy so either a wind up or a dumb feckwit who takes on no advice and repeats same mistkae, unbelieveable :cursing::cursing:

why is it always a so called accident!!!!!!!!!!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

chelseasmum said:


> I no i totally agree with both of you the mismate jab would have been the best option especially as I am.hoping to.move the middle of October but obviously Chelsea comes first


How can you possibly allow this to happen twice within a year?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> Hi I am having a bit of a worry my Rottweiler Chelsea who had a litter of 6 puppies Cross mastiffs last year (1 stillborn) had her last heat mid June I was not preparing breed her but my frien has 2 male Dogue de bordeuax 1 has been neautered but the other one had'nt we normally walk the dogs togethet every morn apart from when chelsea on heat I diddn't bring her out again until it was her 23rd day there was no sigms of blood at all and she last became pregnant on about thr 18th day so I felt safe but when we were walking through the park the dogue de bordeux jumped on her back we shouted but it was too late he tied for literally 2 mins so I thought that maybe nothing would come of it but I have kept a close eye on her this happened on the 30th of june so if she was pregnant her whelping date would be 2nd of September she ha not put on any weight but she is constantly licking her vulva and teats and her teats are producing a milky looking substance . With her first pragnancy she was really big this is why it is a bit baffling I am thinking maybe it is a phantom pregnancy but she has never had one before . So if anybody can offer some help I would be very grateful


Why on earth have you *allowed* this to happen again?

Thank you bearcub for pointing that out to me, I'm busy inbetween work and baking a birthday cake, and missed the only other thread is a very similar occurrence a year ago. No health tests, and yet again another large breed mating. I am just shaking my head in disbelief that this really can be another accident? I'm literally speechless, which is bl**dy unusual


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

bearcub said:


> How can you possibly allow this to happen twice within a year?


Because she wants it to happen....


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Yes I have been throuh all this before that is what I said but everything happened differently this time she was not so late in her heat cycle and that is why I thought she would be fine .But I do still need advice and as everyone was sooo helpful last time I thought I would be helped the same .


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## Ditsy42 (Aug 13, 2010)

gawd help us with numpty owmers like this of my adorable breed, I totally feckin despair, im not commenting further as I may well get banned!!!!!! :cursing::cursing::cursing:


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

*oh dear, i really do hope she isnt pregnant again, if your unsure i would get advise from your vet.*


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

chelseasmum said:


> Yes I have been throuh all this before that is what I said but everything happened differently this time she was not so late in her heat cycle and that is why I thought she would be fine .But I do still need advice and as everyone was sooo helpful last time I thought I would be helped the same .


Go spay your bitch before she has litter after litter after litter. You were lucky last time that you only lost 1 pup.....Pregnancy is stressful enough on a bitch let alone to mate her with a breed quite a bit bigger than her.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> I no i totally agree with both of you the mismate jab would have been the best option especially as I am.hoping to.move the middle of October but obviously Chelsea comes first


But why? This is what people can't understand, it's happened once, ok, there but for the grace of God for all of us who own entire bitches, but twice?? I'm sorry, but putting your bitch first involves seeking advice straight away, not when pups are due, that's far too late and you are now damned if you do and damned if you don't, because if you allow this pregnancy to continue, you could loose them all. You watched them tie for two minutes, so you knew there was the possibility this could happen, and haven't done anything about it, please explain because I'm failing to see, how that is putting your bitch first, I am genuinely at a complete and utter loss 

If that had been my bitch, and yes, I look after entire dogs and bitches a lot of the time, I would have had her straight down for the mismate, not wait months and then ask for advice?? She could have died of an infection if nothing else in the meantime if you're unsure??

Off to go and bake and calm down......


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

So basically I will be recieving no help at all thankypu very much for the disgusting names and language I am being called as well


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> Yes I have been throuh all this before that is what I said but everything happened differently this time she was not so late in her heat cycle and that is why I thought she would be fine .But I do still need advice and as everyone was sooo helpful last time I thought I would be helped the same .


You realise you will get flack from some of those replying, I'm blunt but I hope at least I'm honest!

I would honestly suggest having an emergency spay, not only will it stop this pregnancy from (possibly) continuing, but it will solve the problem for the rest of her life.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

chelseasmum said:


> So basically I will be recieving no help at all thankypu very much for the disgusting names and language I am being called as well


Why not just reread your last thread if you want help?! :cursing:


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

chelseasmum said:


> So basically I will be recieving no help at all thankypu very much for the disgusting names and language I am being called as well


You have bred a litter before therefor you should already have the book of the bitch and know what you are doing. So what help could you possibly need from anyone on here? Apart from "awwwwwwwww cute pupz" no....sorry.

You know what you are doing and the only other person you should be taking help from is your vet.

You made this "mistake" before.....to do it again is selfish.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> So basically I will be recieving no help at all thankypu very much for the disgusting names and language I am being called as well


People have helped you, they helped you before, and you've been told about the emergency spay on this thread. That really is the best route to go down in your position. There are more than enough unwanted dogs in rescue, and large cross breeds like this can attract the wrong sort of owner, who wants a status symbol, not just a dog. And we all know where that ends up, just look at the amount of staffies being put to sleep.

Also, even if you allow the pregnancy to go ahead and all goes swimmingly, without health tests in place, if any of the pups develops an inheritable condition in the future, you leave yourself open to being sued, and given the evidence ie two accidental matings along very similar lines, then really you haven't got any defence.

As more and more puppy buyers are learning the consequences of buying from unhealth tested parents, and finding out after the fact that their pup has been born with something preventable, or have been misled about health test results (I've seen hip scores lied about so much) then more and more breeders are going to find themselves in court facing charges. And tbh, I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think it's about time poor breeding practices like this (not just your circumstances, I'm talking generally here) were brought to book, it's simply not good enough in this day and age.


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

I just wanted to know if people thought this was a phantom pregnancy i do appreciate everybodys opinions and yes I will definately be spaying asap does anybody know how much I am looking at for an emergency. Just so I know thankyou


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## Paganman (Jul 29, 2011)

chelseasmum said:


> So basically I will be recieving no help at all thankypu very much for the disgusting names and language I am being called as well


Idiot


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

chelseasmum said:


> I just wanted to know if people thought this was a phantom pregnancy i do appreciate everybodys opinions and yes I will definately be spaying asap does anybody know how much I am looking at for an emergency. Just so I know thankyou


Phantom or not she needs spaying 1 day she could get seriously hurt by a male trying to mate her in the park or wherever.

Ring your vet and ask how much it would cost to have her spayed tomorrow.


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Phantom or not she needs spaying 1 day she could get seriously hurt by a male trying to mate her in the park or wherever.
> 
> Ring your vet and ask how much it would cost to have her spayed tomorrow.


Thankyou will do


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Paganman said:


> Idiot


Thanks that is so grown up


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> Thankyou will do


Just to second what Shetland Lover has said, mating and tieing without knowing what you're doing is extremely risky, dogs left 'to it' frequently cause horrible injuries, as it's not something you would think of as natural. The urges are there, but that doesn't mean they know what to do, and it is pretty much a frightening and sometimes horrific experience when they're left to it, it's bad enough when they're supervised by competent breeders, which is why the emergency spay really ticks all the boxes.

And thank you for sticking around, there have been some blunt replies, some from frustration because this sort of situation is just so avoidable.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

people like you disgust me and you should not own a dog:cursing::cursing:

i have a dog & bitches living together and manage keep them apart ........the only dog you should own is a stuffed one

bloody disgusting!!!


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not sure you understand SL and .. errr SL  ... They are saying to call your vet today to ask about getting your bitch spayed tomorrow, as in having the op tomorrow ... no more 'possible' pregnancy.

Your poor dog


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> I just wanted to know if people thought this was a phantom pregnancy i do appreciate everybodys opinions and yes I will definately be spaying asap does anybody know how much I am looking at for an emergency. Just so I know thankyou


Sorry, I missed the part about cost; for my bitch who wasn't pregnant or having a phantom, it was about £180 from memory, so I'm guessing it will be around the £300 mark?? But speak to your vet. They may try to persuade you to continue with the pregnancy, but that's something you need to think about and decide. Vets are not reproduction experts, they know a lot of little bits about different animals, but not many specialise in canine reproduction, nor will they take into account the other points I put to you about where pups may end up in the future, and possible inheritable conditions. 

If it is a phantom, you may well need to wait until the symptoms have gone, there are a couple of natural remedies that work quite well at clearing phantoms up, but the first thing is to ascertain if she's pregnant and go from there.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

When I was in my teens we owned a GSD she was due to be spayed after her first season, my parents did everything they could, we had 6ft high fences and she wasn't allowed out for walks. One afternoon in the middle of her heat we could hear yelping from the garden, a Doberman belonging to a neighbour half way down the street had scaled the 6ft fence and had tied with our GSD. She had an emergency spay with no ill effects at all. The thought of her having cross breed pups that we would have to find GOOD homes for was far more stressful than putting her through the spay.
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assuming you were careless rather than purposely bred her. So please take the advice given and have her spayed ASAP. Good luck


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> I'm not sure you understand SL and .. errr SL  ... They are saying to call your vet today to ask about getting your bitch spayed tomorrow, as in having the op tomorrow ... no more 'possible' pregnancy.
> 
> Your poor dog


Haha to many SL's in that sentence.:001_tt1:

I am saying exactly this....you should be on the phone NOW....the welfare of your bitch should come above the price of spaying her.

I am sure you enjoyed having pups last time but your bitch is again mated with a bigger dog posing a risk of a c-section, can you afford £1000? £100 to spay would imo be alot better and alot safer than £1000 c-section.


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## Paganman (Jul 29, 2011)

Aurelia said:


> Your poor dog


poor pups too!

God knows what will happen to them.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

money should not matter .........you owe it to your dog to do the right thing!!!


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Not all vets will do emergency spays. 

Its a rather horrifying surgery to perform and assist with (more so when the pups are more developed), not to mention of a higher risk to the bitch than a standard spay.

Its really not something that should be considered lightly.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

How very sad for your dog, it's your responsibility to protect her from this kind of thing happening, however getting personal isn't productive everyone so there's no point, I personally hope she's just having a phantom, either way please _please_ get her spayed this time, there are already too many rottie crosses languishing in rescue without adding to it


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Its possibe that a dog can be mated on day 23, and go on to produce puppies - its also possible for a dog to become pregnant from a two min tie, just like its possible from no tie.

You have brought one litter of puppies into the world, with no forward planning - it would be best that the same mistake isnt made again. I am fully aware there is such things as an accidental mating (been there myself ..) BUT there is NO such thing as an accidental litter (in most cases!) - once you know your dog could be pregnant its down to you to act on that in a responsible manner, with your dogs and your dogs intersts *only* at heart.

- Spaying a pregnant dog is a personal choice, and not one many people will go ahead with - and alot of vets will also not carry out the OP - its not a simple OP, like most want to believe - It should be considered deeply.

- However I would advise that the OP speaks with the vet, and gets an opinion. Either way, it shouldnt have happened. - not for a second time anyways.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Not all vets will do emergency spays.
> 
> Its a rather horrifying surgery to perform and assist with (more so when the pups are more developed), not to mention of a higher risk to the bitch than a standard spay.
> 
> Its really not something that should be considered lightly.


No it's not, but it's a rock and a hard place really, whelping doesn't always go smoothly either. If it were my bitch, I would opt for the emergency spay, and I'd also shop around to find a vet competent enough to do this, so lots of phone calls and possibly take out a new credit card.

I know there will be critics of this who think that all life deserves a chance, and are anti abortion for dogs, but breeding is not about scatter cushions and Barry White, it's unfortunately a lot of heart ache. I've not taken one litter yet, and the awful experiences I've seen and heard of through close friends who are breeders, should be enough to put off most you would hope, but it doesn't for those who are interested in cash before the welfare of their dogs unfortunagely - that bit not aimed at the OP at all, just a comment on the sad situation with a lot of those breeding for cash 

And that's without mentioning the friends I have involved with rescues, where so many dogs are just pts, no way of tracing who bred them, where they came from, nothing, a sad short life and a sad ending.

The OP has taken an awful lot of criticism on this thread, and I know feelings run high about this sort of thing, but I think really now the advice has been given, to really leave them to discuss this through with their vet and hopefully ring round a few others to get a few opinions. I'm sorry if you feel a bit battered, but dog welfare is something that members take very seriously on here


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

I have rung my vet he will not do the operation he has made me an appointment tomorrow to have a consult to see if she is pregnant as he said ita phantom sort of stops at weel 3-4 so going on a bit long for it just to be a phantom he said if she is. That she should have the pups and then when the pups are about 8 weeks old he will spay for me bit he has given me another number of another vet who may do it but I tried the number and no amswr so will try again in the morning before my appointment at 10:30


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> I have rung my vet he will not do the operation he has made me an appointment tomorrow to have a consult to see if she is pregnant as he said ita phantom sort of stops at weel 3-4 so going on a bit long for it just to be a phantom he said if she is. That she should have the pups and then when the pups are about 8 weeks old he will spay for me bit he has given me another number of another vet who may do it but I tried the number and no amswr so will try again in the morning before my appointment at 10:30


I keep trying not to bump this as I feel you've had a bit of a battering but just wanted to say, take your time (edited to add, obviously not that much time, but sit back and think sort of thing), you've been given the advice, and really think things through. You've made this mistake twice now, and you know yourself I think that you owe your girl better. You've had criticism for allowing the same mistake twice, but no-one can criticise you for taking the information on board from here and from the vets, and doing what you feel is best for your girl now. I wish you and her all the best, not an easy decision by any means.


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I keep trying not to bump this as I feel you've had a bit of a battering but just wanted to say, take your time (edited to add, obviously not that much time, but sit back and think sort of thing), you've been given the advice, and really think things through. You've made this mistake twice now, and you know yourself I think that you owe your girl better. You've had criticism for allowing the same mistake twice, but no-one can criticise you for taking the information on board from here and from the vets, and doing what you feel is best for your girl now. I wish you and her all the best, not an easy decision by any means.


Thankyou very much I am gonna have a very long hard think I am worried for her and the pups terribly and yes I know should of acted quicker I know but now I have been told hpw risky the op os thats a worry and then again labour is a worry so much to think about


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> Thankyou very much I am gonna have a very long hard think I am worried for her and the pups terribly and yes I know should of acted quicker I know but now I have been told hpw risky the op os thats a worry and then again labour is a worry so much to think about


That's all any of us can do 

I recently found a mole on one of my dogs, vets advice is whip it off, which I'm not happy to do because she doesn't do well under GA, so I've decided to leave well alone and monitor. Some may feel that's irresponsible, after all, it could easily be removed. But having weighed up the advice from lots of people, including a couple of vets, I feel that's the best course for her. If that changes, I'll change my view, and that's all anyone can do.


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's all any of us can do
> 
> I recently found a mole on one of my dogs, vets advice is whip it off, which I'm not happy to do because she doesn't do well under GA, so I've decided to leave well alone and monitor. Some may feel that's irresponsible, after all, it could easily be removed. But having weighed up the advice from lots of people, including a couple of vets, I feel that's the best course for her. If that changes, I'll change my view, and that's all anyone can do.


Yes definately it's up to the owner at the end of the day bit that is a heavy weight to decide what is right :crying:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> had her last heat mid June I was not preparing breed her but my frien has 2 male Dogue de bordeuax 1 has been neautered but the other one had'nt


Mmmm - funny how you haven't been on this forum since your last litter, but appear at the end of June on the breeding section again, just at the time your bitch would have mated? 

Unbelieveable, but not surprising :cursing:


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Mmmm - funny how you haven't been on this forum since your last litter, but appear at the end of June on the breeding section again, just at the time your bitch would have mated?
> 
> Unbelieveable, but not surprising :cursing:


As I said I have come on here for some advice , I had hoped for some support but obviously I won't be getting that off of the likes of you


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

chelseasmum said:


> As I said I have come on here for some advice , I had hoped for some support but obviously I won't be getting that off of the likes of you


im really shocked to read that you learned nothing from last time and youve allowed the same thing to happen again, so sorry for your poor bitch, Dogues are a massive breed you really are taking risk after risk with her

did you do the last lot of puppies a spay/neuter contract and offer to refund a percentage of the purchase price once proof was seen? only your irresponsibilty is likely to add to the rescue crisis somewhere down the line if not.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> As I said I have come on here for some advice , I had hoped for some support but obviously I won't be getting that off of the likes of you


You have some nerve!  

You were given advice last time that would have applied this time and you've ignored it. You knew about the mismate as you were told last time - you were also advised to spay your bitch. You are full of excuses which are hard to believe - sorry, I don't buy it at all. After the last fiasco you expect to come here and get taken seriously and shown some respect?

Unbelievable.!

And if you want some advice - go to your vet and pay for it. And NO, I cannot support such irresponsible ownership.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_let us know what the vet says when you go there today at 10.30. fingers crossed it is a phantom,_


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

What is done is done and yes I think you are a very irresponsible and ignorant dog owner seeming this is the second time you've risked your dog like this, please neuter all animals you have in the future or just stick to no pets if you don't care for their welfare! 
Have you seen how many pedigree dogue de bordeaux pups are for sale on these free ad places?? - there are tons and no-one can get rid of them let alone a cross bred one with no health tests!! 
They also tend to attract the wrong sort of people who want these cross types. So I hope you can afford to be stuck with possibly 10 or more very large breed puppies that no-one wants until well into adulthood or even for life? or are you going to just dump them on a rescue if you can't get rid of them? - can you afford to feed them all properly, vaccinate, micro chip and neuter them all??? - you were lucky and only had a small litter last time!!

Also dogue de bordeauxs suffer from a large amount of genetic problems so if your friends dog is not health tested you could get people coming back to you in a year or mores time asking for their money back as their dog is a walking vet bill, or wanting to give the dog back - anyone who breeds a litter must be able to take all the dogs back or keep them all if necessary otherwise they should not be breeding!
And along with the genetic problems they also have very wide large skulls, the vets I worked at had 2 dogue de bordeauxs with whelping problems - the puppies had massive heads and got stuck - the whole litter was dead in the first and the second they saved the bitch and had 2 pups survive which they had to hand rear, although one got to 3 weeks old and because of another genetic problem had to be put to sleep. This breed are far more likely to need a c-section - they cost a bomb, and if you loose the bitch or she rejects them can you afford the time and money to bottle feed them?

I also find it strange you manage to find 2 mastiff type entire males - they are pretty hard to find at the best of times - a planned mating me thinks, but you really couldn't have chosen a worse time, big dogs are so unpopular at the mo as they cost a bomb to feed, you should have done your research first before mating her!!!

If I were you I would get an emergency spay - yes it is very risky as the blood vessels to the uterus are very large, i have seen dogs bleed to death on the operating table even when having a c-section - they usually spay them at the same time - it is far easier to take out the entire uterus and then revive the pups, than fiddling about trying to stitch the uterus back together only to spay at a later date, so you could loose the bitch, but then you really don't care for her life anyway or you would never have got into this situation for a second time and you did get plenty of advice the first time yet it seems to have fallen on deaf ears!!! So rather than bringing yet more unwanted dogs into rescues, which are more than likely going to end up god knows where, I would find a vet to spay the poor dog - it is no different than a c-section so vets will do it, I would have a serious chat with your vet - if you insist they will do it as long as they know you will pay that is!


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## Blondie (Feb 27, 2011)

I've just seen this!! Thank goodness I was at work yesterday or I would have been fuming and possibly lost my temper completly and got banned!!:cursing:

As someone who is a 'producer of puppies' you should know by now that bitches can mate on diffreing days every season - one of my own bitches mated on days 22, 15, 18 and 19 and produced puppies every time. This is basic knowledge hun, something you haveint even bothered to learn since the last fiasco, which I only know about from comments on here - I am NOT going to read the thread.

Phantoms come in different shapes and forms too, something else you should have learnt about - but hey ho - why the feck should ya botha??:cursing:

Actually - I better leave it at that!!:cursing:

Sometimes I thinks I love my breed too much.................................


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Ceearott said:


> I've just seen this!! Thank goodness I was at work yesterday or I would have been fuming and possibly lost my temper completly and got banned!!:cursing:
> 
> As someone who is a 'producer of puppies' you should know by now that bitches can mate on diffreing days every season - one of my own bitches mated on days 22, 15, 18 and 19 and produced puppies every time. This is basic knowledge hun, something you haveint even bothered to learn since the last fiasco, which I only know about from comments on here - I am NOT going to read the thread.
> 
> ...


Its hard not to love your breed hun:001_tt1:


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

It does seem very coincidental they are both similar sized dogs why does no ones accidental litters ever have a scruffy mutt as the dad! When they aredogs like staffs and rotts that accidentally get pregnant its odd it's never by something like a poodle or a spaniel or collie.

Op sorry if you have answered but why did you not consider the mis mate jab this time if you did not want to go through with it?

Must admit seeing more large chunky breeds at the pounds that are very hard to find places for.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

It does seem very coincidental the dads are both similar types of dogs why does no ones accidental litters ever have a scruffy mutt as the dad! When they aredogs like staffs and rotts that accidentally get pregnant its odd it's never by something like a poodle or a spaniel or collie.

Op sorry if you have answered but why did you not consider the mis mate jab this time if you did not want to go through with it?

Must admit seeing more large chunky breeds at the pounds that are very hard to find places for.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Bah I said it twice apols


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

I have been to the vets she is prgnant but he says she is a lot tinier this time and can only palpate 2 so will defintely be going ahead with the pregnancy I have spoken to my friend who has the male and she will have 1 so that is a weight off , A nd you all now proberly think I am rediculous but my vet explained all the consequences that can occur with any sort of operation like this so I won't be going down this route . I will also not be making any sort of money on the pups because as I have said my friend will have one and I will have the other If there is any more than I will find a home .My last puppies went to fantastic homes last time and I still keep in contact with all the owners .i have added a pic that one of the owners sent me of the pup now he is a year the rosette was for winning Most handsome crossbreed


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> I have been to the vets she is prgnant but he says she is a lot tinier this time and can only palpate 2 so will defintely be going ahead with the pregnancy I have spoken to my friend who has the male and she will have 1 so that is a weight off , A nd you all now proberly think I am rediculous but my vet explained all the consequences that can occur with any sort of operation like this so I won't be going down this route . I will also not be making any sort of money on the pups because as I have said my friend will have one and I will have the other If there is any more than I will find a home .My last puppies went to fantastic homes last time and I still keep in contact with all the owners .i have added a pic that one of the owners sent me of the pup now he is a year the rosette was for winning Most handsome crossbreed


It's not a weight off though, I'm sorry (and please read that first bit in context with the whole of my reply, it's not meant to be a direct criticism), but rescue organisations are full of poorly bred cross breeds and pedigree type dogs, so although I respect your decision not to have the emergency spay, I really hope you consider having your girl spayed as soon as possible to prevent this from happening again. It's not a question of whether you get any money for the pup or pups (and btw, vets have been known to be wrong about the number of pups hiding up there under the ribs), it is that unfortunately yet more pups are being brought into the world from an entirely preventable situation, and this is the second time. You will no doubt get asked will there be a third time, fourth time, and it's not because people want to sound nasty (well I can honestly tell you I don't) it's because of sheer frustration. You may think you're having a one off accidental litter, but added to all the other one off accidental litters on the go, this will produce thousands of pups. Add that to the byb's and puppy farmers, and the scale of the problem starts to hopefully become apparent. So please, tell us you'll do something this time to prevent any more unwanted litters, that would simply be a God send to know the message had got through 

Fingers crossed it all goes smoothly, please, please make sure any pups go to homes where the puppy owners know there are no health tests etc in place, and produce some sort of contract as has been suggested to prevent pups from being used for breeding in the future


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> I have been to the vets she is prgnant but he says she is a lot tinier this time and can only palpate 2 so will defintely be going ahead with the pregnancy I have spoken to my friend who has the male and she will have 1 so that is a weight off , A nd you all now proberly think I am rediculous but my vet explained all the consequences that can occur with any sort of operation like this so I won't be going down this route . I will also not be making any sort of money on the pups because as I have said my friend will have one and I will have the other If there is any more than I will find a home .My last puppies went to fantastic homes last time and I still keep in contact with all the owners .i have added a pic that one of the owners sent me of the pup now he is a year the rosette was for winning Most handsome crossbreed


Oh, how fantastic that make is all alright then 

OK - that's probably lost on you, so I'll just say - get your girl spayed or, better still, rehomed - she deserves a more responsible and caring owner.

And I don't think you're ridiculous - if I said what I think of you I'd be banned


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> Oh, how fantastic that make is all alright then
> 
> OK - that's probably lost on you, so I'll just say - get your girl spayed you or rehomed - she deserves a more responsible and caring owner.
> 
> And I don't think you're ridiculous - if I said what I think of you I'd be banned


It is lost on her....its obvious she wants the pups otherwise she would have mismated or spayed after she saw her bitch get mated but AGAIN exactly 1 year later she has not. So 2 litters from her bitch even though she KNEW of mismate and spay and was informed last time.

So its wasted. You cant reason with someone who's already made up her mind the day her bitch was mated.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

chelseasmum said:


> I have been to the vets she is prgnant but he says she is a lot tinier this time and can only palpate 2 so will defintely be going ahead with the pregnancy I have spoken to my friend who has the male and she will have 1 so that is a weight off , A nd you all now proberly think I am rediculous but my vet explained all the consequences that can occur with any sort of operation like this so I won't be going down this route . I will also not be making any sort of money on the pups because as I have said my friend will have one and I will have the other If there is any more than I will find a home .My last puppies went to fantastic homes last time and I still keep in contact with all the owners .i have added a pic that one of the owners sent me of the pup now he is a year the rosette was for winning Most handsome crossbreed


you want to hope and pray that there are more puppies inside there , seriously. i`ve known large breeds have extremely small litters resulting in enormous puppies that have had to be born by emergency c - sections resulting in loss of mum , i`m sure this is a route you don`t wish to go down ? i certainly wouldn`t be listening to a vet , most know little about breeding , i think i would be opting for emergency spay for the safety of my bitch.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

EmCHammer said:


> It does seem very coincidental they are both similar sized dogs why does no ones accidental litters ever have a scruffy mutt as the dad! When they aredogs like staffs and rotts that accidentally get pregnant its odd it's never by something like a poodle or a spaniel or collie.
> 
> Op sorry if you have answered but why did you not consider the mis mate jab this time if you did not want to go through with it?
> 
> Must admit seeing more large chunky breeds at the pounds that are very hard to find places for.


Im inclined to think this wasnt an accident at all, and the OP is just saying that in order to try and get some help and support.

Far too many coincidences.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

chelseasmum said:


> I have been to the vets she is prgnant but he says she is a lot tinier this time and can only palpate 2 so will defintely be going ahead with the pregnancy I have spoken to my friend who has the male and she will have 1 so that is a weight off , A nd you all now proberly think I am rediculous but my vet explained all the consequences that can occur with any sort of operation like this so I won't be going down this route . I will also not be making any sort of money on the pups because as I have said my friend will have one and I will have the other If there is any more than I will find a home .My last puppies went to fantastic homes last time and I still keep in contact with all the owners .i have added a pic that one of the owners sent me of the pup now he is a year the rosette was for winning Most handsome crossbreed


your poor dog!!

you are a prat and most vets do not have a clue when it comes to breeding and i think the reason you have chose to keep the pups as you do not want pay for the op

i also dont believe this was a accident!!:cursing:


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

*if she is only having two, you must watch her like a hawk, the puppies could be very big,resulting in a c-section being needed,i do hope all goes well for your bitch, but i do think you should get her neutured once the pups are old enough, you dont want any more mistakes.*


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## Sparkle (Jan 28, 2010)

Can I ask a question??? Your dog was mated and had pups 1 year ago. Dogs have 2 seasons a year so you managed to not get her pregnant then (if this was indeed an accident) but now a year later she's miraculously pregnant! 

Why didn't you spay her after her last litter??? 2 pups in a large breed is asking for trouble they are going to be HUGE!!!! She is likely to need a section... I hope you know what to look for and have enough money for a c section.

Your vet unless a breeder wouldn't know much about breeding and also I find him highly irresponsible to say she should have puppies. Are you going to have the puppies spayed/neutered? Is the dad going to be neutered?


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

i really can`t believe this i have a habit of not reading all the posts and just replying to the last few on the page
i can`t believe how irresponsible you are chelseasmum she should have been spayed LAST YEAR after her litter had been rehomed!!!
there isn`t NO market for large crossbreds , many , many ending up in rescue within the first year of their lives as people do not realise what they are taking on.:cursing::cursing::cursing::cursing: there are enough bloody numpties in the world breeding dogs for no reason , without you adding to those numbers again you really are unbelievable and your poor , poor bitch needs taking off you to give her a break:cursing:
your bitch if only having two puppies is in extreme danger , i`ve known people in my own breed have one or two pups in their litters [english mastiffs] those pups needing to be born by c - section as they`ve grown too large for mum to pass naturally , i`ve known 3 breeders loose their bitches this way and that`s one bitch too many in my book.
what a selfish person you are , you need a kick up the backside as you obviously do not care for the welfare of your dog as we all obviously talk a load of bullcrap in your eyes , why ask for the advice if you aren`t going to take it ? shove your nose in some breeding books instead if you can be bothered i really can`t believe this i am so flaming angry after reading no lessons have been learned from your experience last year


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## missmoomoo (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm not going to comment on what has happened, but thought I would just share my story with you OP as this could be YOU! 

I have a large breed (dobermann) and she is health tested etc I have had 2 litters from her previous to her last litter and everything went fine with the birth pups etc. But on the last litter was very different. She went over her usual 62 days so when she got to 69 days I took her to the vets and requested her to have a cesarian (she had been going daily since 65 days) so already my vet bill was stacking up! When they opened up my bitch she only had 1 puppy still alive (she was only pregnant with a small litter anyway) because the pups start the birthing process off there wasn't enough to get her going hence the c section. This then turned out to be a very large bill of £1600 (which insurance will not cover) I then had to hand rear the pup because my bitch was speyed at the same time she somehow didn't have enough hormones to get her milk flowing. Not only this but after registering the puppy with the Kennel club I had to sell him at a reduced price due to a coat marking fault. I was at least £1200 out of pocket and that is only including the vets bill not food electricity ect. 

Please think about your bitches welfare and get her speyed. The cost of a spey is far less than that of an emergency cesarean when this accident happens again


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Im sick of people asking for help and advice, and then slating them that give decent advice, and go with the vets opinion? - Of course you wont need the forum for any later advice as your vet will be able to help and advise. You know the very same vet that wouldnt have had to be experienced with breeding, raising or even whelping dogs to become qualified. Most vets lack basic knowledge of breeding, believe it or not..what will make them more money? Think about it. - I hope your vet told you ALL the risks linked with the pregnancy, and the labour and the potential puppies. - Having the OP and continuing with the pregnancy both have risk the only difference is when you continue the pregnancy you dont only have your female at risk, you have puppies at risk too. - not tested, and stand no chance with a 'breeder' that allowed her dog to become pregnant twice, in two unplanned situations.

- Maybe its a good job you and the owner of the male will have the two puppies (thats if they dont become pregnant too ..) as I am sure your amazing vet told you that if these puppies go on to suffer certain illnesses you could be sued as you did not health testing before breeding (same applies for the last litter!)


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## Clayderwoman (Aug 25, 2011)

Are you sure the vet said there are only two? i'm suprised at this as from your dates she'd be coming up to term at which point its very difficult to feel individual pups. I don't know any vets who would count pups especially not off palpation or even ultrasound it leaves them very open to be sued.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

I have not met a vet that will tell you your only have said amount based on feeling....Was a scan done?

I hope for your dogs sake that this litter goes well. 
Whatever reason you have for allowing your bitch to become pregnant yet again (money, cute babies or just being lazy in regards to getting her spayed) you need to realize that every time you do this your bitch could lose her life. She was 3 at the time of her last litter that would make her nearly 4 now, I cant see why in 4 years you have NOT had her spayed. 

I cant understand why you would allow a pregnancy that you saw HAPPEN continue when the male is so much bigger than your girl and after the first "accident".

Although I do not believe it was an accident. 
(either time).

If you need advice go back to your original thread from last year, raising a litter has not changed in a year.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

I have a feeling you posted so late so a spay wouldn't be possible .


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Cay said:


> I have a feeling you posted so late so a spay wouldn't be possible .


it`s not too late to spay this dog , there is an increased blood supply to the uterus , the act of whelping a small litter is a far greater physical risk than speying. the op needs to start putting her poor girl first , rather than accidently on purpose letting her run round in season with the local latchkey dog   a dog that also needs neutering if he`s running round loose and responsible for siring umpteen litters


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

diablo said:


> it`s not too late to spay this dog , there is an increased blood supply to the uterus , the act of whelping a small litter is a far greater physical risk than speying. the op needs to start putting her poor girl first , rather than accidently on purpose letting her run round in season with the local latchkey dog   a dog that also needs neutering if he`s running round loose and responsible for siring umpteen litters


Sorry, I know it's possible but I think she thought it wouldn't be .


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2011)

Cay said:


> Sorry, I know it's possible but I think she thought it wouldn't be .


 it is possible
i really think it`s much kinder to the poor dog , if this was my bitch i wouldn`t be hesitating , infact i wouldn`t be here it would have been done yesterday or weeks ago. i feel sorry for the poor girl , she deserves so much better than what she has any vet worth their salt wouldn`t be supporting this person in their quest to see it through with this litter , owner needs a good earful


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

diablo said:


> it is possible
> i really think it`s much kinder to the poor dog , if this was my bitch i wouldn`t be hesitating , infact i wouldn`t be here it would have been done yesterday or weeks ago. i feel sorry for the poor girl , she deserves so much better than what she has any vet worth their salt wouldn`t be supporting this person in their quest to see it through with this litter , owner needs a good earful


I wouldn't hesitate either, but unfortunately I think the OP has been scared off by the strength of feeling on the subject  I know it's irresponsible, and it does look suspicous, but I really feel for the poor dog and wish people realised the danger they put their dogs in by allowing this sort of thing to happen, because I don't honestly think many people comprehend that, thinking that it's a natural thing and it will all just happen as nature intended. Unfortunately, nature can also be bl**dy cruel, but then people like to have the image of cute fluffy puppies in their head, dead puppies and dogs don't exist.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but unfortunately I think the OP has been scared off by the strength of feeling on the subject


I don't think it's a case of them scared off, but that they aren't getting the replies they want to hear.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I don't think it's a case of them scared off, but that they aren't getting the replies they want to hear.


Possibly, but it can be a bit daunting as well to have a lot of people telling it as it is on a forum. I know I always post what I'd say to people face to face, as do others, but I try not to allow my personal feelings to leak out into posts, because it can come across as a bullying. I prefer to be thought of as just downright blunt, chuckle!


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

I am not going anywhere I am listening and taking it all in I can't do anymore than that I am going to have her speyed as soon as the puppies are 8 weeks . I am watching her like a hawk we are sleeping in the front room with her I have been taking her temp regularly i have got near enough all the necessary items . I 100% understand everybodys opinion if the shoe was on the other foot . Carry on having a go at me if you all want . I won't be posting about her progress as i know most of you feel very strongly that I am doing.the wrong thing with me letting her have them.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

chelseasmum said:


> I am not going anywhere I am listening and taking it all in I can't do anymore than that I am going to have her speyed as soon as the puppies are 8 weeks . I am watching her like a hawk we are sleeping in the front room with her I have been taking her temp regularly i have got near enough all the necessary items . I 100% understand everybodys opinion if the shoe was on the other foot . Carry on having a go at me if you all want . I won't be posting about her progress as i know most of you feel very strongly that I am doing.the wrong thing with me letting her have them.


*i am glad your staying, fingers crossed all goes well, people are only getting angry as they are concerned for your bitch,i am glad you are taking it all in, and we really do want to no how it all goes, i am glad your having her spayed, as you really wouldnt want any more accidents,keep us updated.*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> I am not going anywhere I am listening and taking it all in I can't do anymore than that I am going to have her speyed as soon as the puppies are 8 weeks . I am watching her like a hawk we are sleeping in the front room with her I have been taking her temp regularly i have got near enough all the necessary items . I 100% understand everybodys opinion if the shoe was on the other foot . Carry on having a go at me if you all want . I won't be posting about her progress as i know most of you feel very strongly that I am doing.the wrong thing with me letting her have them.


It can't be easy to sit there and take such a lot of criticism, even when from the point of view of responsible breeders, it's pretty well deserved  although hopefully the level of comments does tell you one thing, and that is that people are genuinely concerned for your girl.

You're probably right, people don't want a long drawn out thread about cute puppies, to ooh and ahh over, but I think we all would appreciate knowing how your girl comes through this and what happens to any pups if that's the route you stick to.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think a lot of you are unbelievably rude and nasty. I find it horrendous you would speak to anyone like that.

And thank goodness the vet would not spay the bitch - there are not many vets that would and tbh I would run a mile from one that would.

Bitches are whelping all the time, problems are relatively rare. Spaying a heavily pregnant bitch has a very high percentage chance of killing the bitch. And as for the person that said most vets spay at the same time as doing a caesar - surely that is rubbish. They will normally only spay if the uterus is infected or damaged as the risk is much greater if they do spay. Plus, as one poster has experienced, the bitch may well not produce any milk.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of you are unbelievably rude and nasty. I find it horrendous you would speak to anyone like that.
> 
> And thank goodness the vet would not spay the bitch - there are not many vets that would and tbh I would run a mile from one that would.
> 
> Bitches are whelping all the time, problems are relatively rare. Spaying a heavily pregnant bitch has a very high percentage chance of killing the bitch. And as for the person that said most vets spay at the same time as doing a caesar - surely that is rubbish. They will normally only spay if the uterus is infected or damaged as the risk is much greater if they do spay. Plus, as one poster has experienced, the bitch may well not produce any milk.


I normally don't rise to this sort of crap, but what a load of ********! Whelping problems are not rare, even so called easy whelping breeds (like Labs) have frequent problems, I hear about them all the bleedin' time and I don't even breed, yet!!! And when you're talking about two large breeds, a DDB sire and Rottie bitch, you may well be looking at problems during whelping due to the size alone, and ANYONE who advises otherwise would be foolish.

I've known of two close friends whose bitches had c-sections and were spayed at the same time, and neither bitch had a problem producing milk throughout the time they raised the litter.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of you are unbelievably rude and nasty. I find it horrendous you would speak to anyone like that.
> 
> And thank goodness the vet would not spay the bitch - there are not many vets that would and tbh I would run a mile from one that would.
> 
> Bitches are whelping all the time, problems are relatively rare. Spaying a heavily pregnant bitch has a very high percentage chance of killing the bitch. And as for the person that said most vets spay at the same time as doing a caesar - surely that is rubbish. They will normally only spay if the uterus is infected or damaged as the risk is much greater if they do spay. Plus, as one poster has experienced, the bitch may well not produce any milk.


_i think people were feeling angry as this accident has happened to the poster before, i dont think its just to do with the bitch giving birth to the pups, people are worried about what will happen to these pups, as said the rescues are full of dogs, and lots of them are the bigger breeds._


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## Lesleyann (Apr 22, 2009)

All im going to say is just because the vets said 2 dont mean there is to if I was you I would prepare for more! We where told 2-3 our bitch whelped 10 pups 9live! Thankfully I had prepared for upto 10pups.. 

Please get her spayed if you cannot keep her and males apart, Its not fair on her to keep breeding under the conditions she is with no "help" and crosses with bigger males is asking for problems.. 

I hope for your bitches sake her whelp goes OK


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## mysticmel (Jun 27, 2011)

While i agree with what most people have said on here, i do hope it all goes well for your bitch, i would be suprised if there is only two. people are just fed up that more unwanted pups, especially the breeds involved, are being born, these are gonna be hard to find GOOD homes for.
anyway i personally think you should of had her spayed before her first litter, did i read she was 3 then or is it now
please please get her spayed asap or we will be seeing you again this time next year


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of you are unbelievably rude and nasty. I find it horrendous you would speak to anyone like that.
> 
> And thank goodness the vet would not spay the bitch - there are not many vets that would and tbh I would run a mile from one that would.
> 
> Bitches are whelping all the time, problems are relatively rare. Spaying a heavily pregnant bitch has a very high percentage chance of killing the bitch. And as for the person that said most vets spay at the same time as doing a caesar - surely that is rubbish. They will normally only spay if the uterus is infected or damaged as the risk is much greater if they do spay. Plus, as one poster has experienced, the bitch may well not produce any milk.


i won`t ever tone it down when i believe someone is being stupid and highly irresponsible , putting their bitches life in danger.
i`ve known of 3 bitches that have been lost due to small litters , pups too huge to pass , as i previously said , it`s one bitch too many.
just because this dog whelped easy last time , does not mean she`s in for an easy ride with things this time , especially if the litter is small , as pointed out numerous times , this can result in puppies too huge to pass , placing not only the whelps lives in danger , also that of the bitch.
love me or loathe me , i don`t really care , i will defend animals that cannot speak for themselves , i`m pretty sure this poor girl would not be choosing to have a litter despite how natural some think it is to reproduce
i`ve fostered for a large breed dog rescue , it was heartwrencing knowing almost all the dogs walking through my front door were all under one year of age , many crossbreds just like this one! rotts x bullmastiffs , sharpei cross mastiffs all poorly bred to fill a pet market , makes you want to scream , when you`ve seen this a few times , you get wise to people and their motives
one accident is forgivable in some cases , two is an absolute joke


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of you are unbelievably rude and nasty. I find it horrendous you would speak to anyone like that
> 
> And thank goodness the vet would not spay the bitch - there are not many vets that would and tbh I would run a mile from one that would.
> 
> Bitches are whelping all the time, problems are relatively rare. Spaying a heavily pregnant bitch has a very high percentage chance of killing the bitch. And as for the person that said most vets spay at the same time as doing a caesar - surely that is rubbish. They will normally only spay if the uterus is infected or damaged as the risk is much greater if they do spay. Plus, as one poster has experienced, the bitch may well not produce any milk.


vets spay pregnant dogs all the time, I wouldnt run a mile from one - some have no choice when faced with a pregnant, rescue dog that simply is not in the best health 

Bitches are whelping all the time? - oh ok thats makes it alright doesnt it  - no infact its that very thing (bitches whelping all the time) thats leaves most of us so determinded to educate, and advise them in not so good situations.
Spaying a pregnant bitch is not without its risks, but I wouldnt say its a 'very high' percentage die from it..(mind you with such a sweeping statement, I would like some evidence of this?)
LOTS of vets will spay after a c-section IF thats what the owner asks, it saves opening up later on. Vets most always give the options. - one even tried to push it on a friend with her cav litter - the vet didnt believe in her having another litter after the first c-section.

& as for rude and nasty, most are past caring. sometimes you cant reason with folk, proven in this case, where the poor dog suffers not once but twice.


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Wow so I am assuming that every single quote and reply that is now going to say the same thing more abuse and the same statements over and over again when I have stated I am going to have her speyed I take full responsibility of all that has happened I can't say or do anymore .


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Its good your going to get her spayed, I am pleased - shame its two litters to late mind.

I certainly will repeat myself for as long as it takes for more owners such as your self to do the right thing *before* its to late, instead of *after*.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2011)

i`ll sit here and repeat myself all day if i had to , even if one person listens , means it was all worth it shame it`s lost on some


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> Wow so I am assuming that every single quote and reply that is now going to say the same thing more abuse and the same statements over and over again when I have stated I am going to have her speyed I take full responsibility of all that has happened I can't say or do anymore .


I don't think anyone's having a go at your decision, just at the crap late advice someone else has chosen to interject with.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

diablo said:


> i won`t ever tone it down when i believe someone is being stupid and highly irresponsible , putting their bitches life in danger.
> i`ve known of 3 bitches that have been lost due to small litters , pups too huge to pass , as i previously said , it`s one bitch too many.
> just because this dog whelped easy last time , does not mean she`s in for an easy ride with things this time , especially if the litter is small , as pointed out numerous times , this can result in puppies too huge to pass , placing not only the whelps lives in danger , also that of the bitch.
> love me or loathe me , i don`t really care , i will defend animals that cannot speak for themselves , i`m pretty sure this poor girl would not be choosing to have a litter despite how natural some think it is to reproduce
> ...


I completely agree! Once is careless, twice is deliberate. This litter will no doubt be on epupz or preloved soon, advertised under some ridiculous name.

I have been involved with animal rescue most of my adult life, especially with large breeds. I have seen this type of thing thing far too often and helped clear up the mess and heartache after to have sympathy for anyone other than the bitch and those poor pups.

I wish your bitch well for her whelping and hope the pups are healthy, but feel sick that this is the second time in a year that this poor girl has been put through this. You say that you'll get her spayed - I hope for her sake that you do.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

colliemerles said:


> _i think people were feeling angry as this accident has happened to the poster before, i dont think its just to do with the bitch giving birth to the pups, people are worried about what will happen to these pups, as said the rescues are full of dogs, and lots of them are the bigger breeds._


Absolutely - people with health-tested good specimens of pedigree dogs are pulling back from breeding because of the current economic climate despite there still being a surprisingly healthy demand for such pups.

Whelping problems in some breeds are commonplace and happen more than most of us hear about in supposedly easy breeds for whelping.

NO-ONE want's anything to happen to the OP's bitch, what I've seen is nothing but concern for the bitch, in an avoidable situation such as this for the second time through no fault of her own.

As for the reliability of vet scans, you can at least double the amount of those seen - ' we've had 4, 4 and 2 on the scan and whelped 8. 9 and 7 respectively.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

well actually I often think it would be good for stuff to go wrong for these breeders, might think twice about letting 'accidents' happen over, and over. - not fair on the dogs I know, but nors this.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

What I really struggle with is the fact that you have an entire bitch that you walk regularly with entire males yet you seem to know very little about a dogs reproductive cycle.
When Lexi was a puppy my vet wouldnt spay without her having her first season. There was a (very dodgy) guy that lived three doors up with two entire males staffs and an entire male pit/staff cross (so he said) now his garden was not the most secure and his dogs were always getting out. My worst nightmare was Lexi coming into season, I read everything I could about seasons, fertile periods, matings and how to solve an accidental mating, I ws full prepared should the complete unthinkable happen....I even bought knickers for her.
As it was the sod never came into season and was spayed at 15 months. But I knew everything I needed to know to stop her getting pregnant and worse case senario if they had got to her I knew what my next step was.
I hope your girl is OK, i know someone who had a bitch that was mated to she didn't know what, she went into labour, there was two huge pups, pup got stuck, person didn't react fast enough and she lost her dog and both pups.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

swarthy said:


> NO-ONE want's anything to happen to the OP's bitch, what I've seen is nothing but concern for the bitch, in an avoidable situation such as this for the second time through no fault of her own.





Devil-Dogz said:


> well actually I often think it would be good for stuff to go wrong for these breeders, might think twice about letting 'accidents' happen over, and over. - not fair on the dogs I know, but nors this.


(Just to confirm to start that the first quote is only part of what was said the second is entire)

Have read with a great deal of sadness but made no comment before as you will no doubt make judgements about me because of my choice of dog (different subject done to the death). Swarthy I agree with entirely but I feel compelled to say I am sorry Devil Dogz I feel what you have said is utterly appalling. As a breeder yourself I can't help but think you really should be as equally ashamed if not more than the original poster, that you would even think that let alone voice it in public ............... well I am lost for words.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Im not a breeder, nor am I ashamed of my comment. - Breeding is to easy for these idiots, if things went wrong lowing the chance of a better profit more people would think twice about having a litter simply for cash. - (I knew the comment wouldnt go down well) - but while things go right, and litter after litter is successful brought into the world and sold for a huge profit, the BYBs will continue to breed. when they realise that things go wrong, and money is needed to be spent out I have no doubt that many would re consider. - but most stay in the mind set 'that it wont happen to them'.

People do make me laugh though, if you read this forum time after time you will read ' dont buy a pup from an unethical breeder ' - you might be leaving that pup to suffer but could be saving ten more, if their not brought into the world.

Thats just the same as if one bitch has to suffer through labour, you could be saving ten more litters born if the breeder realises it aint all plain sailing.

- and of course NO I dont want any dog to suffer, but such is life and either way their suffering at the hands of selfish breeders.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Im not a breeder, nor am I ashamed of my comment. -Breeding is to easy for these idiots, if things went wrong lowing the chance of a better profit more people would think twice about having a litter simply for cash. - (I knew the comment wouldnt go down well) - but while things go right, and litter after litter is successful brought into the world and sold, the BYBs will continue to breed.


Apolgogies I assumed from some of your posts you were a breeder. But as a dog owner (sorry if wrong on that too) but no you don't get off that easily - you basically said you hope it goes wrong for the bitch to teach the owner a lesson. That is a pretty unpleasant thing to say


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Apolgogies I assumed from some of your posts you were a breeder. But as a dog owner (sorry if wrong on that too) but no you don't get off that easily - you basically said you hope it goes wrong for the bitch to teach the owner a lesson. That is a pretty unpleasant thing to say


I didnt hope anything, I said I often think it would be a good thing if things went wrong then people will realise its not all text book, and easy.

I wouldnt hope for pain on any animal, but something needs to teach these breeders that dogs are not cash machines. - the dogs are suffing in their hands already.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I didnt hope anything, I said I often think it would be a good thing if things went wrong then people will realise its not all text book, and easy.
> 
> I wouldnt hope for pain on any animal, but something needs to teach these breeders that dogs are not cash machines. - the dogs are suffing in their hands already.


If you are going to edit it may be better to correct all rather a few words.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I added more to the post before I read your reply. - I didnt edit what I had orginally wrote.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Don't be tedious you will look rather silly if I post the screen prints, whilst I realised what you were trying to say your original post was a little gibberish assumed you had one to many sherbets hence the rather unpleasant thoughts you shared. amongst other things you said originally "I would hope for pain on any animal" . I merely pointed out you may as well correct the rest.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Oh flipping heck, I made a spelling mistake. anyone with half a brain cell can surely realise that it was a mistake, and that I wouldnt harm a fly nor hope for any animal to suffer, I merely said I often think it would be a good thing so people would realise.
I havent been tedious, and I couldnt care less if I look silly, you have serious issues for one reason or another - I havent insulted you or your opinion, but true to form you have once again.


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## MrsSmith (May 24, 2011)

I have read it all but stayed quiet. I just want to say I understand what you mean Devil dogz, and I don't think it was meant the way its being taken. That said, lets stop the arguing and get back to the issue at hand. Has the OP even been on? I really hope this dog is spayed as soon as possible after the pups are born, I also worry, though I do hope I am wrong, that this was done on purpose, or at the least, without caring if it did happen. 

I hope everything goes well for the dog's sake. I also hope the owner has learned their lesson and doesn't allow this to happen again, be it on purpose or on accident.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> well actually I often think it would be good for stuff to go wrong for these breeders, might think twice about letting 'accidents' happen over, and over. - not fair on the dogs I know, but nors this.


i knew what you meant , i completely agree , if folks had to spend out a few grand before and during the birth of puppies , maybe they would be reluctant to do it a next time!



DoodlesRule said:


> (Just to confirm to start that the first quote is only part of what was said the second is entire)
> 
> Have read with a great deal of sadness but made no comment before as you will no doubt make judgements about me because of my choice of dog (different subject done to the death). Swarthy I agree with entirely but I feel compelled to say I am sorry Devil Dogz I feel what you have said is utterly appalling. As a breeder yourself I can't help but think you really should be as equally ashamed if not more than the original poster, that you would even think that let alone voice it in public ............... well I am lost for words.


i don`t judge anyone based on what kind of dogs they own , what a load of crap  wouldn`t matter whether you owned a flying pig , i`d still say the same.
what`s appalling about saying anything of the sort ? i happen to think the same , if things occasionally went wrong for those that breed on purpose which resulted in them having to spend thousands to save their bitch , then so be it , they may be reluctant to do it a next time. i`ve never bred , have no desire to , i`ve just picked up the pieces for people to carry on doing it


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Devil-Dogz said:


> well actually I often think it would be good for stuff to go wrong for these breeders, might think twice about letting 'accidents' happen over, and over. - not fair on the dogs I know, but nors this.


I knew exactly what you meant aswell DD


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Hi just to let you know I took my dog back to the vets yesterday and asked for a scan this time as I was seeing no movement at all and her nesting behaviour had stopped she had stopped licking her teats and the lactating had stopped i thought it was a bit strange so the vet obliged and has found there is nothing in her belly at all :smilewinkgrin: he could'nt explain why he thought she may have been pregnant and that he palpated 2 pups he said it could of been because she was heavily panting :cursing: .But as she is now showing no signs of a pregnancy at all phantom or otherwise there is no treatment needed . So I have booked her in to be speyed in 2 weeks time .


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

she could have absorbed anything that could have been there , or was having a phantom , eiether way now you will never know! glad you are getting her spayed!


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Thats good news all round, for you and for her, all the best with her Spey


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Bitches can absorb puppies up until their 5 weeks old. - But glad she isnt pregnant for her sake.


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

diablo said:


> she could have absorbed anything that could have been there , or was having a phantom , eiether way now you will never know! glad you are getting her spayed!


Oh my god I never thought of that and the vet never mentioned it time to change my vet I think .


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> Hi just to let you know I took my dog back to the vets yesterday and asked for a scan this time as I was seeing no movement at all and her nesting behaviour had stopped she had stopped licking her teats and the lactating had stopped i thought it was a bit strange so the vet obliged and has found there is nothing in her belly at all :smilewinkgrin: he could'nt explain why he thought she may have been pregnant and that he palpated 2 pups he said it could of been because she was heavily panting :cursing: .But as she is now showing no signs of a pregnancy at all phantom or otherwise there is no treatment needed . So I have booked her in to be speyed in 2 weeks time .


I know it might sound hard, and I don't mean it to, but this, along with a phantom is, really, I think the best outcome for your girl  I'm just glad she doesn't have to go through whelping, for me, even though I don't know her personally, it's a relief that isn't ahead of her, hope that makes sense.

I hope everything goes well for her spay operation, I know Indie was a drama queen when she went through hers, so fingers crossed everything goes smoothly


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I know it might sound hard, and I don't mean it to, but this, along with a phantom is, really, I think the best outcome for your girl  I'm just glad she doesn't have to go through whelping, for me, even though I don't know her personally, it's a relief that isn't ahead of her, hope that makes sense.
> 
> I hope everything goes well for her spay operation, I know Indie was a drama queen when she went through hers, so fingers crossed everything goes smoothly


No I know exactly what you mean I am so glad for her not to be pregnant I am so relieved myself.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

chelseasmum said:


> No I know exactly what you mean I am so glad for her not to be pregnant I am so relieved myself.


Can I just say thank you for sticking around, taking the comments, good and bad on the chin, and learning. 

And please pass the message on to your friends, particularly the ones with the big entire dogs  (not that I'm a b*gga for trying to educate folks all the time about breeding or anything, you might have guessed  )


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## chelseasmum (Aug 23, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Can I just say thank you for sticking around, taking the comments, good and bad on the chin, and learning.
> 
> And please pass the message on to your friends, particularly the ones with the big entire dogs  (not that I'm a b*gga for trying to educate folks all the time about breeding or anything, you might have guessed  )


Well I would just like to say thankyou for everyone's help and advicr I definately have taken everything in :wink:


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Can I just say thank you for sticking around, taking the comments, good and bad on the chin, and learning.
> 
> And please pass the message on to your friends, particularly the ones with the big entire dogs  (not that I'm a b*gga for trying to educate folks all the time about breeding or anything, you might have guessed  )


 Can I just congratulate you on your sensible posts here SL. It is sooo easy to shout people down who come on here for advice, Yes they have been irresponsible, yes it makes your blood boil, but surely those of you who do know better owe it to those that don't , to educate them into the right way of doing things.
Education doesn't involve telling them what reckless, irresponsible idiots they are, yes you may think it but thats NOT education.
SL has taken time to try and show Chelseasmum the best course of action for her Bitch, she seems to have heeded her advice , so job done.
I personally feel that 90% of this type of poster will not bothering replying after comments are left, but some will stay and argue their case, surely its better to stay calm and not self rightous and condemning cos quite simply a lot of people don't know any better, they are not evil or uneducated just blind to the dangers of indiscriminate breeding, By all means show them the error of their ways, but I think a lot more would be achieved if the insults were kept in the playground where they belong. Better a poster leaving with informed advice rather than stinging ears


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I personally feel that 90% of this type of poster will not bothering replying after comments are left, but some will stay and argue their case, surely its better to stay calm and not self rightous and condemning cos quite simply a lot of people don't know any better,


But this poster DID know better because this was the second time this has happened and they were already given advice last time!


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> But this poster DID know better because this was the second time this has happened and they were already given advice last time!


Agree this OP did know but it doesn't alter my point of view, just because one doesn't listen you don't give up and it looks like she has finally got the message, its never too late to learn the error of your ways, my point was actually about the way that more experienced posters 'educate' the newcomers looking for help and advice. You may want to shout and scream and verbally abuse them but what good does that do. If you feel strongly about an issue you go and educate others about it, people will never learn if they feel they are being attacked. You don't have to agree or condone their actions, its getting accross what *should* be done from here on in thats important  If they feel attacked and abused they will leave the forum, what is achieved then, absolutely nothing  you may have 'got it off your chest' but how does that help the owner or more importantly the dog/pups


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

jo5 said:


> Agree this OP did know but it doesn't alter my point of view, just because one doesn't listen you don't give up and it looks like she has finally got the message, its never too late to learn the error of your ways, my point was actually about the way that more experienced posters 'educate' the newcomers looking for help and advice. You may want to shout and scream and verbally abuse them but what good does that do. If you feel strongly about an issue you go and educate others about it, people will never learn if they feel they are being attacked. You don't have to agree or condone their actions, its getting accross what *should* be done from here on in thats important  If they feel attacked and abused they will leave the forum, what is achieved then, absolutely nothing  you may have 'got it off your chest' but how does that help the owner or more importantly the dog/pups


It doesn't, but I can fully understand the frustration of experienced breeders (or as in the case of DD experienced daughters of breeders  ), who feel that the opportunity to learn the first time round should have been taken, rather than risk your bitch again. In no way is that a dig at the OP, it is something that happens frequently, and as you say, it's great that the OP has hung around, and engaged with people to find out really what the risks are. So many don't bother and don't do what's right for their dogs ever, never mind the first, second, third or umpteen time of being told 

You also get cases where people pull the wool over your eyes on purpose, I've seen it before on this and other forums where an ooops litter has not really been ooops at all. One person I know who posted, their Lab bitch had accidentally been got to by their Lab dog on her first season, and it was all woe is me until someone found adverts for the dog, who was also under one year of age, offering him up for stud services, and already advertising the *planned* litter.

And just to the OP, absolutely in no way are those experiences aimed at you, just want to clarify that, but the discussion has sort of moved on and hopefully it helps people to see just why some of the people who try and advise do feel frustrated, and do get a bit short with their replies. It's certainly not because we don't care, I know I probably care too much sometimes, well, I don't think I do, but I know I get told off by my nearest and dearest for getting too involved with helping out sometimes!


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

I completely get it, you get frustrated that you are churning out the same advice time and time again, but I stand by my opinion that taking your frustrations out on a poster does only that,relieve you of your frustration, it serves no other purpose, if thats how you feel then the old adage if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing at all comes to mind. Nobody has to give their advice or opinion if they are fed up of doing so, the majority of the time it will be someone genuinely looking for help, granted they may have not made the best decisions and that is where the experience held by so many of you comes in.
Educate them if one takes notice then its a job well done


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

jo5 said:


> I completely get it, you get frustrated that you are churning out the same advice time and time again, but I stand by my opinion that taking your frustrations out on a poster does only that,relieve you of your frustration, it serves no other purpose, if thats how you feel then the old adage if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing at all comes to mind. Nobody has to give their advice or opinion if they are fed up of doing so, the majority of the time it will be someone genuinely looking for help, granted they may have not made the best decisions and that is where the experience held by so many of you comes in.
> Educate them if one takes notice then its a job well done


I don't disagree, but then the same can be said of posters who come on to an open forum, and post their bichon frise has been got at by next door's pugapoo. It is an open forum, you can't expect every single reply to be a positive, oh wow, can't wait to see the pups, you will get the replies about ethical breeding, and some of those are blunt, honest, and sometimes downright rude. I've seen a few posts on here over the last few weeks, which appear to pick on pedigree breeds, if I were the sort of soul to take them to heart, I'd be offended, but it's just normal forum banter. Post at your peril, sort of thing, you will perhaps get honest replies, but they may not always be what you want to hear.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Yep I completely take your point, I may be a newbie here but am no newbie to Dog forums, so am well aware that posters have strong views and don't mind expressing them . I love a *debate* (not so keen on public stonings though), my point still remains that those who consider themselves knowlegdeable on breeding, a certain dog breed, pedigree lines whatever should want to educate others. I am sure we all know or have heard of somebody who thinks its a good idea to breed their Lab with the one down the street or their Cavie to next doors Poodle, these individuals know no better unless they come onto a forum to ask for help in achieving said mating, *great* now they are here lets explain why its not such a good idea (same as if they have just had a missalliance, anything really). Its perhaps their first time on a forum so are totally unaware of the torrent of abuse they are about to get dumped all over them  
They either get angry and never come back or their hurt and upset as they saw nothing wrong in what they are doing, why would they, who is there to tell them??? Either way they carry on regardless and nothing is achieved.
Ideally they would get the honest answers and are informed of why its not a good idea etc and perhaps there will be a different outcome. I have never suggested that we should condone or encourage indiscriminate breeding of any kind and have def not suggested that we coo over the poor pups of such a breeding. Its more of the honest, informative posts that is needed and les of the 'downright rude' ones.
Yes it feels like hitting your head against a brick wall but if you don't try and help others with your knowledge and expertise nothing will ever change.


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## I love springers (Dec 3, 2010)

jo5 said:


> Yep I completely take your point, I may be a newbie here but am no newbie to Dog forums, so am well aware that posters have strong views and don't mind expressing them . I love a *debate* (not so keen on public stonings though), my point still remains that those who consider themselves knowlegdeable on breeding, a certain dog breed, pedigree lines whatever should want to educate others. I am sure we all know or have heard of somebody who thinks its a good idea to breed their Lab with the one down the street or their Cavie to next doors Poodle, these individuals know no better unless they come onto a forum to ask for help in achieving said mating, *great* now they are here lets explain why its not such a good idea (same as if they have just had a missalliance, anything really). Its perhaps their first time on a forum so are totally unaware of the torrent of abuse they are about to get dumped all over them
> They either get angry and never come back or their hurt and upset as they saw nothing wrong in what they are doing, why would they, who is there to tell them??? Either way they carry on regardless and nothing is achieved.
> Ideally they would get the honest answers and are informed of why its not a good idea etc and perhaps there will be a different outcome. I have never suggested that we should condone or encourage indiscriminate breeding of any kind and have def not suggested that we coo over the poor pups of such a breeding. Its more of the honest, informative posts that is needed and les of the 'downright rude' ones.
> Yes it feels like hitting your head against a brick wall but if you don't try and help others with your knowledge and expertise nothing will ever change.


Can i just say that if this was the first time this had happened then i would totally agree with what you are saying..inexperienced people need to be educated and not given a hard time when they ask for help...But sadly it is not the first time and the op was advised what to do last time and did not take on board anything that she was told and so it has happened again....I am glad that she has now listened to what people have said and her dog is going to get spayed...And to the op glad you stuck around and took the advice on board.....


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## wyntersmum (Jul 31, 2011)

years ago we had a bitch never had a female dog befor so was baffeling to us when she came into season. we took her to the vet and was told no sex 2 weeks. sound stupid now but we kept her in for 3 weeks and when we took her out for 4th week we put an old pair of knickers on her as an incase. then had her spayed. 
you have had the mistake before but please you should have lernt from it and taken her straight to the vet if not that give them a ring and ask there advice.


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