# I don't understand the fuss about breeding from cats



## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

Hey

I'm really confused, and perhaps you can shed some light on things for me. Like others (who often get negative comments on here), I am considering breeding probably just one litter from my kitten when she is older, and I'm failing to see why everyone seems to think this is such a bad idea...

Before people keep saying about millions of abandoned kittens etc, I should say that this hasn't been my experience at all. I first tried to get a kitten around Christmas/New Year, and every time I found a litter for sale, they were gone before I could even arrange to see them. Shelters wouldn't even respond to my emails (and cats protection wouldn't allow me a kitten as I haven't got a cat flap fitted yet - I'm moving house before she goes out, so little point!). I gave up for a while, and started looking again in March. Excuse the phrase but kittens were literally selling like hotcakes. The only reason we were able to buy our kitten was a mad rush down the motorway to see a kitten an hour away, at 8pm becuase we were worried she would be gone by the next day. Whilst older cats may be abandoned, and this is tragic, finding a kitten was a mission, and in stark contrast to the suggestion that there were thousands waiting to be rehomed.

Secondly, my intention would be to keep one kitten, and we would only breed here when we had potential (vetted) owners lined up, ie my best friend who would like a cat in a year or so's time, and my brother, both of which would provide excellent homes. 

The internet suggests that spaying is better for her health because it reduces the rate of some cancers, like ovarian cancer, but I can't find clear statistics on the matter. Does anyone have any rates for unspayed cats developing these cancers? Is it a similar reduction to what human women would experience if our ovaries and womb etc were reduced, or are cats specifically susceptible to these cancers?

I'm not an irresponsible cat owner, but its really hard to get hard statistical information, as everyone seems to jump on the 'don't breed cats' lobby


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I guess it depends a bit where you are (you don't say) and what the time of the year is. Right now kittens keep turning up at the CP branch a friend runs and they don't have room for them all. Some rescues also don't rehome over Xmas / New Year.

But, look through the various threads about cats having problems delivering kittens. Most cats are fine but not all are - do you want to risk your cat? She might also pick up FeLV, and you should ask yourself if your pockets are deep enough should she need an emergency section in the middle of the night. That can easily run into 4 figures, and normal insurance doesn't cover it.

If your friends are willing to wait for a kitten from your cat, why not wait (if necessary) for a kitten from a rescue?

What will you do if your cat has an unexpectedly large litter?

The main form of cancer spaying protects against is breast cancer, and the protection comes from the cat not calling. A cat that never calls has a far lower risk:
01 Mammary Cancer in Cats - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


> Spaying before age 6 months results in a 91% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 1 year results in an 86% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 2 years leads to an 11% reduction in risk. Having given birth to kittens has no effect on mammary cancer risk. Spaying after age 2 years does not reduce the risk of mammary cancer development at all.


You are also protecting her against pymometria.

Finally, did you know that some female cats spray urine when calling? Not nice if she does it in your house.

I let my very first cat have kittens and that was 20 years ago. Since then I've satisfied my kitten-lust by fostering, though that was a pretty rough ride at times.


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## Tayto Girl (May 21, 2012)

I don't live in the UK so my perspective is different, but I volunteer with a charity that raises funds solely to help people afford the costs of neutering. 

My first two cats here were 3 month old kittens that I pulled out of the bins. I neutered them both and kept one.

My next lot were brought into me in a handbag by a lady who had found them in the middle of the road. They were barely four weeks old and of the four, none survived - we spend days trying save them but they were too young.

My latest is an abandoned Persian - she was thrown out of a car in the carpark and the security guard brought her into me as his boss wanted it brought to the local pound. She has just had four kittens as she was 7 weeks pregnant when I took her home, covered in fleas and badly matted.

I see this kind of thing regularly and in spite of an amazing group of animal lovers there are just too many cats and dogs to rehome.

As you can see, I'm definately pro-neutering!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

OP, I can see where you're coming from, but personally I wouldn't risk my cat. Why breed? You can buy another kitten if you want one, even if it did take time.

Last week I was told about a mother and two kittens who a friend's son had taken from a man who was about to drown them. With help from Kelly-Joy on here, we found them a nice foster home. The mother cat herself was only about 7 months old! One of the kittens had possible hip dysplacia and his front legs was too short for his back legs.

The lady who took them was very knowledgeable about cats and said this might be the result of inbreeding. There are lots of kittens needing homes, but I took these kittens a long way to get them there because all the local branches of CP said they were full. If they weren't so ridiculous in their requirements for a home, then perhaps they would have had room. Can't home a kitten because you don't have a catflap? Ever heard of indoor cats? Why would anyone let a young kitten outside anyway?

I have had various cats for years and never had a catflap. Someone else said they wouldn't rehome to them as they were at work. As though a cat cares whether you are there or not all day.

Sorry, going off topic a bit now, but I wouldn't be risking it, personally.


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## Lumboo (Mar 31, 2011)

Cats do not breed all year round. They breed in the warmer months when food is readily available, which is why 'kitten season' is April-August. This explains why in December finding a young kitten would be hard, although you could possibly have found a six month kitten which most would consider past it's sell by.

Breeders often have artificial conditions in order to get their Queens and studs in the right set up which is why they may have litters at this time.

Like you I was rejected from some rescues, in my case for having a 4 year old. Some made me feel really rubbish about it too. However, just because one rescue says no, doesn't mean they all will. Larger rescues like Battersea will accommodate a wider range of lifestyles. In the end we got our kittens from CP, but we waited to obtain a rescue kitten. I was not prepared to go the Gumtree route.

Unless you have a health tested stud how will you know whether the male cat is a carrier of disease. Would you want to risk your pet contracting FiV knowing she was OK before being mated? All kittens would then be FiV positive too. 

Oscar, one of my cats, has a luxating patella. This is an inherited condition. Touch wood he hasn't had issues but if he were to father kittens (he is neutered) he would pass this on. His kitten may not be as lucky as him. Would this be fair as the kitten would then be harder to rehome? 

My other cat Wilbur has struvite crystals. Again looking at him you wouldn't know. Some suggest this is inherited.

I know what you are saying in regards to rescue cats but just remember picking up a cute kitten is not like buying food from Tesco. You have to be patient as rescues are not off the shelf/on demand. If one rejects then go elsewhere.

I personally think you need to consider all the implications of having 'just one litter'. Rescue advice and advice on here are not Pro Breeders, Sod Moggies. They are speaking honestly about the effects of people not neutering. Recession means less money to spend and abandoned animals when they get old and sick. 

I wonder how many of those kittens you missed out on will truly have a 'forever' home....


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Purple said:


> Hey
> 
> I'm really confused, and perhaps you can shed some light on things for me. Like others (who often get negative comments on here), I am considering breeding probably just one litter from my kitten when she is older, and I'm failing to see why everyone seems to think this is such a bad idea...
> 
> ...


You have to look at the bigger picture.
Most people on the forum feel strongly about animal welfare & a lot of us see first hand the number of kittens & pregnant cats that end up dumped in rescue. I had a college trip to CP 3 weeks ago & they had 2 cats nursing litters & several on pregnancy watch.
Yes, kittens may sell like 'hotcakes' but these hotcake kittens rapidly grow into cats that are often either got rid of faster than you can say 'no longer cute' or end up pregnant (or impregnating if they're a tom) faster than you can say 'whoops litter'.
Pregnancy can & does go tragically wrong & to do it properly can cost more money than people often realise. There was a thread just yesterday about a rescued Ragdoll that needed an emergency c-section.
It is a myth that cats need to have one litter & it is purely selfish to put her through a pregnancy just to experience the 'miracle of birth'. If you want to see kittens being born go & volunteer at a rescue, there's plenty being born there.
Finally, allowing her to mate with any old tom may result in her catching an STD.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

You won't get kittens in the winter because it isn't the kitten season. Most cats, if they have access to outside (which, after all, is how most moggies get pregnant) simply do not call from about September to December. They start again as soon as there is a mild spell after the winter solstice, so this year they started really early whereas last year it was much later (or was it last year and the year before? Anyway you get the idea). Two months pregnancy then two months (if they are lucky) before the kittens are sold brings you to the end of April, and that is kitten season. Then there will be another litter considered ready to go at perhaps the end of August. And right in the middle comes the summer holidays when people do not want to buy kittens. So, kittens ready early in the season find homes, kittens ready for when the kids go back to school find homes, in between these times supply of kittens exceeds demand, and once you get to about November there are no kittens to be had until at least April. Obviously there is some individual variation - not all cats call at the same time, breeders let kittens go at different ages, a cat may call a few times before she actually finds a mate (ie. escapes), she may lose her kittens and come into call again, and so on, and so there is a steady stream of kittens available between May and October.

Recently on "more or less" they did a piece exposing the silliness of the claims rescues make about the number of kittens an entire queen can be responsible for. Yes those figures are silly but the point they did make was that for the cat population to remain stable 98% of females need to be spayed. 98%. That is why the situation in most countries is so bad, but in some wealthy areas such as the Isle of Wight, spaying exceeds 98% and therefore kittens are not readily available.

Liz


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I think there are plenty of areas on the mainland that get to 98% of cats being spayed - except more entires simply migrate in. On the IoW they can't. Cats can swim but not that far! 

A friend keeps trapping and neutering the ferals round her house (she gets vouchers) and more keep turning up.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> You have to look at the bigger picture.
> Most people on the forum feel strongly about animal welfare & a lot of us see first hand the number of kittens & pregnant cats that end up dumped in rescue. I had a college trip to CP 3 weeks ago & they had 2 cats nursing litters & several on pregnancy watch.
> *Yes, kittens may sell like 'hotcakes' but these hotcake kittens rapidly grow into cats that are often either got rid of faster than you can say 'no longer cute'* or end up pregnant (or impregnating if they're a tom) faster than you can say 'whoops litter'.
> Pregnancy can & does go tragically wrong & to do it properly can cost more money than people often realise. There was a thread just yesterday about a rescued Ragdoll that needed an emergency c-section.
> ...


I think that is exactly the problem. These 'cute kittens' turn in to cats that may demand a bit more attention & suddenly they aren't so appealing anymore


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I think that is exactly the problem. These 'cute kittens' turn in to cats that may demand a bit more attention & suddenly they aren't so appealing anymore


I confess, as with children, I prefer most animals once they've grown out of the 'baby' stage


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

Do you know your cats genetic history?
Do you know what health tests she has had?
Do you have enough money for a c section (£1000)
Are you able to keep all kittens if good homes are not found.
Are you responsible enough to vaccinate and neuter all of them before they leave home.

Are you ok with the fact that you will take vital homes away from the countless others in rescue centres needing homes?

I don't see the point. You like kittens? Why not volunteer for the rescue centres who are crippling under the volume of kittens needing homes


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

my shadow and lightning were from a lady who had thoughts like u, that the kittens would go to family etc, then they were born and her family decided against it cause they werent desirable colours, the litter was 2 blacks and 2 black and whites, i took them on the day they would have gone the cattery, the other 2 went the cattery, and i wasnt even in a place to have kittens, saw the advert in a shop window and me and my sister went to have a look, i didnt plan to take any and these two little guys look at me as tho to save them, which i did and they are totally spoilt, i changed many aspects of my life to accomodate them, at the time i was going out every night as i was a student and have only been out once since having them and that was my sisters birthday, now my money goes on them rather than alcohol, but most people dont consider a cat worth the hassle, will take it from u and be bored when the kitten doesnt look like a cute kitten anymore.

just because u get a vet approved mate it doesnt get rid of complications, shadow and lightnings mum was 3 years old and she had a lot of trouble giving birth and the vet actually had to come out or something, one kitten got stuck in the birthing canal and actually died, the mum also nearly died and this was only a litter of 5, some cats have 8! the mum also rejected them a lot earlier than anyone planned. 

its not just about the diseases that can pass, the healthiest mate and healthiest female can still have a tough birth, and yeah everyone loves kittens but id say i love my cats too much to risk something like that, and kittens are a lot of hard work, you would have to keep them till 12 weeks, my kittens got given to me at 6 weeks cause the woman flat out refused to keep them any longer, shadow and lightning were 11 weeks and the different them 4 weeks make is outstanding, the kittens werent litter trained, one wasnt even walking properly she had really bad balance and her back legs would give way, shadow and lightning are totally antisocial tho as they were kept in the toilet away from people, im the only one that can even pick them up!

so many people that let their cat get pregnant get annoyed with the kittens, hence why they are given away so early, and they give them to just anyone willing to take them, i know u say ur family want one etc, but i dont think this is reason enough to let ur kitten get pregnant, because ideally she would need to be a decent age of like 3, no 7 month old pregnant cat crap, ur family will be waiting a long time if you wanna go it the "right" way which most wont...


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## Lel (Mar 21, 2012)

As with what has been said earlier, it is simply a well known and documented fact that all over the UK there are hundreds of cats sitting in rescues waiting for homes.

There are more cats waiting for homes than there are people who want them. Supply has exceeded demand.

For this reason it is selfish and irresponsible to breed more cats (moggies).

The difference between moggies and pedigrees (and I say this as a moggy owner myself) is that pedigree cats are a specific breed and without good reputable breeders continuing to breed them, these specific breeds would eventually be lost.

This is not to say that I agree with all pedigree breeders; I do not believe any animals should be bred without there already being a demand for the kittens. I think you will find that the people of here who breed will have waiting lists set up before they let their cat have the kittens. There is of course health testing and so on to ensure as far as is possible that the kittens will be healthy.

The very fact that there are cats in rescues shows that the kittens which sell like hot cakes do not go to the right places because as adults they end up in rescues.

Your friend and family members who would have one of your proposed kittens can easily get one from a rescue when they are ready.

There are far too many "accidental" pregnancies as it is, and whilst it may be that the kittens are easily rehomed there have been lots of stories on here about strays being found, cats being abandoned when owners move, and cats being shut out until they eventually wander away.

The problem is not just with that cats in the rescues but also those cats living rough, not neutered, further adding to that number. 

You asked a question and I hope that the fact that everyone so far seems to share the same view will prompt you to reconsider having a litter


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> ideally she would need to be a decent age of like 3, no 7 month old pregnant cat crap, ur family will be waiting a long time if you wanna go it the "right" way which most wont...


I agree with most of your post but this is way out, sorry. I doubt if there is a cat anywhere who is not physically mature enough to give birth at a year, certainly a moggy would be well able to do so. All registries regard cats as adults by 10 months (latest, one is 8 months and one is 9 months) and they have good reason for that.

I sometimes wonder if there isn't a good case to be made for a variation on "breeder terms" (well known in the dog world but almost unknown in the cat fancy), whereby a breeder would place a kitten under condition that she is mated to a particular stud at the breeder's expense but actually livews with the new family including giving birth there and then the breeder takes most of the kittens when they are 13 weeks old. It would solve quite a few problems as far as infection control is concerned and might well solve other problems as most breeders have a number of cats, and cats with kittens can be quite aggressive with other cats. The difficulty of course would be ensuring that the cat is actually kept safe for breeding and brought to the stud.

If you just want to experience a litter of kittens, there are always people desperate to rehome cats including pregnant ones, why not take on a pregnant cat in need?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Lel said:


> I do not believe any animals should be bred without there already being a demand for the kittens. I think you will find that the people of here who breed will have waiting lists set up before they let their cat have the kittens.


I don't, and I doubt if many do, except where the breeder is selling kittens of such a quality that they are in demand for breeding. I don't even advertise mine until they are absolutely ready to go, not if I can help it. There is simply too much that can go wrong. In my experience, of people who are "leaving right now" to come and see the kittens, approximately half never turn up. This year I had two kittens and an adult cat booked to go to breeders, all three potential owners pulled out when the kittens were almost ready to go - one ran out of money, two found others they liked better elsewhere.

OP - please don't imagine your friends / family really will take the kittens, the chances of them changing their minds are very high indeed.

Liz


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

lizward said:


> I agree with most of your post but this is way out, sorry. I doubt if there is a cat anywhere who is not physically mature enough to give birth at a year, certainly a moggy would be well able to do so. All registries regard cats as adults by 10 months (latest, one is 8 months and one is 9 months) and they have good reason for that.
> 
> Liz


oh maybe its dogs that should ideally be 3, i know some sort of pet shouldnt get pregnant till age 3, its not something ive looked into much just read somewhere


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Shadow And Lightning said:


> oh maybe its dogs that should ideally be 3, i know some sort of pet shouldnt get pregnant till age 3, its not something ive looked into much just read somewhere


Horses?

Liz


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## Shadow And Lightning (Jan 18, 2012)

lizward said:


> Horses?
> 
> Liz


hmm maybe i just had it in my head for cats and dogs too, learn something new every day lol


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

Hello Purple 
as already said there are few kittens around in winter and anyone trying to get one then can get the mistaken idea there is some sort of shortage - well wait until this time of year the rescues will be unundated.
All charities and most responsible people will advocate spaying and not breeding from your cat beacuse they know there are just not enough homes to go around. Even if you have homes lined up for your kittens all you are doing is taking away a home another kitten could have.
Ask yourself why you want her to have a litter - if people are honest the answer will usually be that they simply like the idea of having some cute little kittens to look after for a while.
I can understand that, but please consider the bigger picture and think of all the millions(yes millions of homeless cats in the world) and perhaps do what is right rather than what you would like to do.
If you still doubt there is a huge problem with homeless cats please look at some rescue websites. 
The Celia Hammond Trust Lewisham branch claim to have 21 litters in their care/foster care at the moment and that is just one branch of 1 charity!

I have been involved with rescue work all my adult life and can assure the problem of homeless cats is just as bad now, if not worse than 30 years ago.


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

I strongly suspect this is yet another troll looking for reactions..........and getting them. Strange why they haven't come back.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I think the fuss over breeding comes because a lot of us know the risks involved. Pyo is the thing that worries me in your case. The more a cat calls, the more she is at risk of developing a pyo. If it's a closed pyo, then you may not have any signs until it's too late, and this condition can be fatal. It's a constant worry for we breeders, and I'm actually losing sleep over it at the moment as I have a kitten who's calling constantly and can't be mated yet.

Can I ask why you want to breed? Is it because you want to have another little piece of your cat in a kitten? If so, I can understand this, but then, will you think the same thing next year when this little kitten grows to maturity too? It could get out of hand and very expensive very quickly. If it's just to experience the miracle of life, then you could do something even more wonderful and rescue a cat who is already pregnant. If you take her on in earlier pregnancy, you'll have time to grow to love her as your own so that when those kittens are born, it would be no different to your own cat having had them herself.

Have you thought this through all the way and do you have the finances to breed and care for a full litter? Perhaps you already know this as you seem to be well read, but those cute little monsters are expensive! I made a massive loss of between £600 and £800 with my last litter, and those were kittens which were planned, had potential homes lined up, and were rehomed at a pedigree pet price.

You know the risks already from not spaying. I'm afraid I can't help you with the stastics, but what i can tell you is that pregnancy brings with it its own risks. Two of my colleagues lost their queens to pregnancy related issues in the last three months alone. Could you potentially part with your cat for good because of a pregnancy?

These are all things worth considering before breeding. The fuss comes here when people haven't considered that aspect of birthing. It's not as simple as opening your door and just letting kitty go off and have a dirty weekend with the local tom, because Tom could have FIV (which may well kill your mum cat as well as being passed to the kittens) feline leukaemia, all sorts of nasties that don't only impact the kittens, but can finish mum off as well.

If you're dead set on breeding, then I'd suggest that you go down the propper route. Choose a breed that you like, apply to have a breeding kitten, then send her to a registered, health tested stud cat. Then, not only are you having your own litter of kittens, but you're contributing to a breed at the same time.


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## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

Firstly, I'm NOT a troll, its just I have many other things to do in life, as I'm sure do many of us, rather than being able to respond all of the time. 

My first reluctance to spay her immediatly comes from more philosophical thoughts about the meaning of life (I'm rolling my eyes too), in that the urge to reproduce is so strong through so many animals, the urge to pass your genes on to the next generation, that I'm uncomfortable in making the decision for my cat that she shouldn't pass her genes on, and in doing so fulfil one of her purposes in life. 

The odd thing is, lots of people who say we should adopt rescue cats instead, would baulk at the idea that as humans we shouldn't have our own children, but adopt, as there are many children in desperate need for homes already existing. 

I wouldn't be able to let kittens go to homes that I was concerned about, or knew nothing about, and if that means I keep most of the litter, if the pre-arranged people fell through, then so be it. I wouldn't breed her unless I knew I could financially support whatever the worst case scenario was anyway. 

I am interested with what you say about a natural shortage of kittens in the months I was looking, which maybe has skewed my view. I think I'll see whether there are indeed lots of kittens seeking homes in the summer months, as if there are, I wouldn't want to deprive them of good homes - it just hasn't been my expeirence when trying to buy a kitten. 

She's going to be indoors (or outdoors very heavily supervised!) for a few more months yet anyway, so I'll have a good think. 

Carly, if I do breed her, that was what I was going to do. There's no way on earth I'm letting her get pregnant by any old male cat who could pass on diseases or was unvaccinated. 

Personally I think there is a world of difference between someone who after a lot of thought wants to breed from their moggie, from a specific male cat who is fully vaccinated, and where there are homes pre-arranged, to someone recklessly lets their un-neutered female cat out, to be at the mercy of any old male cat...


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## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

Carly, Ive got a few questions you may be able to help me with

1. what is PYO? 

2. If I put her on the feline version of the depo injection, would this stop calling as well as just pregnancy? ie does it prevent heat, as I don't want my poor girl going up the wall with frustration in the meantime. We wouldn't be in a financial position where I would feel happy breeding from her for probably 1-2 years (making her 1 year 4 months, to 2 years 4 months).

In the end I will probably reluctantly come down on the side of neutering, but it doesn't sit right with me, and I feel its a major decision to make for your pet, and therefore want to think through both sides carefully. The difficulty is that I like making decisions made on statistics, and a proper evaluation of the risks, but however much I look I can't find that.

Gah, I'm probably over thinkng this and over humanising her.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Purple said:


> The odd thing is, lots of people who say we should adopt rescue cats instead, would baulk at the idea that as humans we shouldn't have our own children, but adopt, as there are many children in desperate need for homes already existing.


The difference is that unspayed female cats can and do produce an average of 8 kittens a year for several years. You could easily be looking at 80 kittens on average over the lifetime of an unspayed female. There is a reason why kitten drowning was routine three generations ago.



> There's no way on earth I'm letting her get pregnant by any old male cat who could pass on diseases or was unvaccinated.
> 
> Personally I think there is a world of difference between someone who after a lot of thought wants to breed from their moggie, from a specific male cat who is fully vaccinated, and where there are homes pre-arranged, to someone recklessly lets their un-neutered female cat out, to be at the mercy of any old male cat...


Then you will need to be willing to travel because there are few studs around for moggies, also you will need to be willing to pay. My experience is that the great majority of moggy breeders are willing to do neither (in fact I have yet to meet one who is, but you may be different perhaps)

Liz


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## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

lizward said:


> Then you will need to be willing to travel because there are few studs around for moggies, also you will need to be willing to pay. My experience is that the great majority of moggy breeders are willing to do neither (in fact I have yet to meet one who is, but you may be different perhaps) Liz


Perfectly happy to travel (though only as far as is comfortable for her) and perfectly happy to pay. We'll see what happens.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

PYO is pyometra - infection in the uterus, potentially and frequently fatal. The more unmated calls a cat has the more likely she is to get it.

Pyometra In Cats

(warning - the video really is gross)

Yes, you can control a cat's calling with hormones (Ovarid), but none of the breeders I know would dream of doing so with a maiden queen, and some will never, ever do that. They also would not dream of waiting until 2 or 3 for a female to have her first litter unless she physically matures unusually late by any feline standards. When she has her first litter is mostly determined by when she is physically and maybe mentally ready to do so.

Also, the drive in animals other than humans isn't to produce young, it's to have sex. They don't have a concept of sex leading to pregnancy leading to young like we do so they can't make a meaningful descision about getting pregnant or not. Female cats also don't form long term relationships with their mate - the male has sex and leaves. She raises her kittens on her own.

And I agree - you are overhumanising her, very much so.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Just to jump in and add my two cents... Your kitten is the beautiful blue cream moggy? I know you say that you have friends or family who would very much like one of these kittens if you were to decide to breed from her, are they aware that as a moggy there is no telling what her kittens would look like? 

I wonder if they cannot believe you got such a lovely looking kitten without going down the pedigree route and are thinking that they would like a kitten just like yours? Do you honestly think they will be as keen if she has kittens that look nothing like her? There is nothing not to love about moggy's, they are really lovely but unavoidably people have expectations with things like this.... 

Just a thought


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I agree with you that there's a world of difference between those who open the door and let their females mate with anything, compared with those who think the process through. However, with moggies as with other breeds, there are still risks. The biggest one with mogs in comparison to the pedigrees is that you can't possibly health test for every possible genetic mutation which could impact on any kittens produced, whereas in pedigrees, responsible breeders know the health defects associated with their breed through generations and generations of selective breeding and intensive testing. In that way, we can predict as far as anyone can that kittens produced will be healthy. You have no such assurance with a mog. In fact, the only assurance you have even if you went to a vaccinated, leukaemia and FIV tested boy, even a pedigree stud, is that your girl and kittens will be Leukaemia and FIV free. There's still the possibility of producing kittens with PKD for example. This is something which can affect Persians (thankfully, I'm a PKD DNA negative cattery as the disease is pretty awful). It's a dominant condition which can aometimes lurk undetected as cats can mask symptoms for periods. All it would take would be for your mum to have a copy of this gene which she passes to kittens, and then you have a litter who could all die at a young age from a horirfic kidney disease. There are lots more, but with the best will in the world, you can't test for them all as it's too expensive. This is why I say that if you're dead set on breeding, you really should pick a pedigree and do the thing propperly for want of a better word.

As Liz says, there are very, very few studs who are available to moggies. Heck, there are very few available to other pedigrees! It's taken me 6 months of searching to find some of decent quality to use on my GCCF registered, full pedigreegirls. So you may be up against a brick wall there.

I can understand the meaning of life philosophy, but then, where does that stop? Say you have a litter from her so that she can pass on her genes. Then what about her daughters? Surely it would be wrong to deny them the same consideration you gave to their mum? And what happens if she has a boy and you end up keeping him? In order for him to procreate, he must remain entire. If you keep him in, he'll spray all over the house and will quite happily mate with his mum to produce babies. If you let him out, he will roam up to five miles away to find a girl, will get into fights and pick up injuries, and is at massive risk of all the associated dangers of outdoors,, together with having to deal with disgruntled neighbours who don't like him spraying in their gardens or catterwalling outside their window at 2 in the morning in search of a girl. I'm a breeder and understand why boy cats do what they do, and even I'm ticked off mightily at the moment because someone in the neighbourhood hasn't bothered to neutre their boy who is now coming and spraying my bins, my whole garden and even my screen door on my porch, and let me tell you, cat wee is hard to clean out of screen!

Please don't think I'm having a rant. I'm not. Even though I don't agree with the urge to breed a mog, I can understand the feelings that you have. It is a big decision, but one which really has only one answer in my mind, especially as you can't breed her for a long time yet. You'll see why in my next bit.

So, to address your questions:

1. Pyo or pyometra is a womb infection. It's where the womb fills with pus. An open pyo means that this pus leaks out of the cat, whereas in a closed, it's all contained and much harder to notice. Cats get it in response to repeatedly calling without being mated and impregnated. It's not uncommon for it to be fatal.

2. I wouldn't put a maiden queen on Depo or any other form of contraception as it can mess them up and sometimes they never call again.

The other thing you need to consider is that if they call repeatedly and don't get in kitten, they can develop cysts on their ovaries which can lead to infertility.

Because of all the things I've mentioned above and because of the fact that you won't be able to breed her for quite a while yet, I really would strongly suggest that you get this little lady spayed. It really is for her own good, and she'll not be upset or hate you for preventing her from having kittens. In fact, she may very well thank you for taking away those uncomfortable and painful heat cycles that leave her, as a maiden queen, confused, unsettled and uncertain together with getting her out of condition.

Again, if you're really set on breeding, then start out with a pedigree cat. If you'd like help getting started, then please feel free to give me a shout as I've got friends or acquaintances in most breeds.

Hope some of this has helped.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's a lovely picture isn't it - a bundle of cute kittens. I can quite understand why people would think it's a nice idea. Sadly, there's another thread on here which gives another reality 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/239139-help-kittens-not-feeding.html
Inbreeding, environmental factors, low grade uterine infection, underlying disease in either of the parents - all sorts of things can lead to heartbreak. Novice breeders of pedigree cats start out with an individual mentor plus the backing of the combined knowledge of breed club membership. It isn't that things can't go wrong but everyone works to minimise the risks. It just isn't possible to do so to the same extent with cats of unknown backgrounds.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2012)

I am going to say what a lot are being too polite to say. I sincerely believe that anyone who wants to breed a litter of kittens, knowing that so many cats and kittens are unable to find homes and will be killed, could hardly be called a cat lover. You breed those kittens and know that the exact no of kittens will be put down, due to not getting the homes they would have got, that your unnecessary kittens took. You haven't found new homes. You found homes that were considering a cat.

If you have a larger litter, you may well home some to people you don't know well. What if they have exactly the sane attitude as you? Or even past the self indulgent, I want a litter, and just, I don't care if they breed. Do you seriously think that there would not be a number of people who would not have loved to have bred a litter of kittens, if there were a shortage of homes, and every home was responsible and loving, and willing to make every sacrifice to give their cat a fantastic home?

It's not done because THESE people are willing to do the best for the species they love, for the sake of their cat and all the other cats, desperate for homes, and the THOUSANDS of cats that die, because people like you are so self indulgent. Before you make sweeping statements about not being able to get a kitten, OUT OF SEASON, as your justification, which exposes SUCH ignorance, why don't you volunteer at a cat rescue, at the worst time of year, meet and fall in love with 5, 10, 20 cats, and have to help put them down, because of people like you, who insist you are entitled to breed a litter of kittens, because you can. 

I think ANYONE who breeds a litter of kittens should be forced by law, to volunteer for at least a month, at a cat rescue and must actually prepare and participate in putting down the same number of kittens they breed.

The problem is overwhelming. Probably 5 plus times the problem with dogs, Dogs have me distraught, I seriously don't know how the cat rescuers cope, at all. I have 4 cats. 3 I have unhappily, as I was forced to take on 11 feral kittens, this year, and am stuck with 3. I personally paid for the shots and desexing of all of them, and gave them away, but there is no way I would allow a rescue cat leave me , still able to breed.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

To be fair to the original poster, I don't think she's insisting that she has the right to breed a litter of kittens. She's been very clear that she's currently thinking the problem through which is why we're all trying to give thought out advice instead of the usual "you're an idiot for wanting to breed".


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## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

carly87 said:


> To be fair to the original poster, I don't think she's insisting that she has the right to breed a litter of kittens. She's been very clear that she's currently thinking the problem through which is why we're all trying to give thought out advice instead of the usual "you're an idiot for wanting to breed".


I suppose at the heart of this isn't whether I think I have the right to breed a litter, but whether its right to make this decision on behalf of another creature - that is what I'm wrestling with. THe line has to be drawn somewhere, but the question is where.

When is the worst time for unwanted kittens - ie when shelters etc will be at their busiest? It might be an idea for me to pop along to one then (and try not to come out with an armful of extra cats!) so I can properly assess the situation.

What I don't get though is why people seem ok for pedegree cats to be bred. I don't see pedegree cats as in any way better or more worthy of breeding than moggies, so if controlled and careful breeding is fine for them, why not for your average moggie?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

you have a point, and this is something I've thought long and hard about. My answer is this. There are certain people who decide that they want a pedigree and nothing else. For different reasons, people want as close to a guarantee as possible as to a cat's personality, temperament, activity level etc which is where it's useful to have a pedigree cat with known traits. Then you have the issue of health testing as I outlined above. No matter how controlled the breeding of mogs, you will not get the same level of testing unless mogs are control bred for generations, and then guess what? you've created a new pedigree breed! So in short, a mog is a mog because there's been no controlled breeding. The minute you begin to control it and work towards an ideal, it's not a mog any more.

It's not Ok to breed moggies because of:
1. The lack of informed owners.
2. The rescue situation (there are far more mogs in rescue than pedigrees, and you've only got to look at street cats where you hardly ever see a pedigree puss).
3. The issues with health testing.

I'm afraid you've already started making decisions for your cat which impact on her life. You choose to keep her indoors instead of letting her run wild. you're planning to choose who she mates with, but what if she would have chosen a different cat? you choose what she eats, but what if she wants something different? The very fact that you chose her at all dictated the rest of her life right at that pivotal moment when you felt the connection. I'm afraid that you've already drawn that line for yourself, as your choices are or should be concerned with the animal's welfare first and foremost. That's part of the responsibility of having a pet as I'm more than sure you know. So forget what's morally right or wrong. Forget what should be in an ideal world. Make the decision which benefits her welfare most.


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## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks for replying. 
Its not something I'm going to decide on now, I've probably got another month or two to decide, so I'll take some time, do a bit more research and then make a decision based on all of that. 

I do think though that if we shouldn't be breeding moggies then we shouldn't be breeding pedegrees either. If someone is so set on a cat looking or acting in a predetermined way, then that would give me concerns that they could give the unconditional love you should give to a pet, irrespective of how they actually turn out. People who want a pedegree should be directed to rescue cats, rather than getting an expensive trophy animal. I don't mean that offensivley to those who have pedegree's, I just don't understand it tbh. 

Also, if breeding is so dangerous, and so bad for cats, then aren't pedegree breeders being cruel to their own cats by not neutering them?


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Just to chuck in a thought from outside the ring - if you are willing to travel for over an hour to buy a kitten from a seller, would you do the same to get one from a rescue? As previously advised, rescue rules are not set in stone across all rescue centres. There are MANY small, independent rescues who are more flexible and understanding when it comes to re-homing.

I got our 10mth kitten from a rescue that was 80 miles away - 3.5hr round trip - and then went back again 4 mths later to get another boy for her to play with.

They were both VERY much worth the effort of doing so.

This link may be helpful in putting you in touch with rescues that can give you the flexibility you require.

Animal Lifeline UK: Helping Rescues with Homechecking, Fostering, Transport, Fundraising, Rehoming and more!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I never once said it was cruel to breed, not at any time. If I thought I was being cruel to my cats, then I certainly wouldn't be breeding! Breeding puts them at more risk, but unlike 99% of the moggie wannabe breeders, I undertook two solid years of research into the whysand wherefores of breeding before I even considered getting my first girl. I'm on this forum not only to help others, but because it's such a huge font of combined knowledge that I can carry on learning. I constantly update my knowledge on all things cat which means that when my cats do exhibit any of the signs of the above mentioned risks, I can spot them as quickly as is humanly possible and act on them in the best way. A lot of breeders are at a point where, for example, if a cat gets pyo, she can mention treatments that work even if the vet isn't aware of them (some aren't).

The only cruel things as far as cat breeding goes are when a cat is over-bred, i.e, litter after litter, after litter, or a cat being put at risk by being bred with a non-health tested cat. I think it's heartless, and yes, maybe cruel too although I hate that word, to condone a mating which has a known or suspected potential of producing babies with health conditions. Ethical pedigree breeders don't do this.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

<snip>
I do think though that if we shouldn't be breeding moggies then we shouldn't be breeding pedegrees either. If someone is so set on a cat looking or acting in a predetermined way, then that would give me concerns that they could give the unconditional love you should give to a pet, irrespective of how they actually turn out.
<snip>
So what about those who go out and buy a labrador to grow up with their kids because they're a family dog? What about the single woman who buys a shepherd because they're good guard dogs and she wants to feel secure? What about the small toy dogs that are bought because they don't need walking as far as a larger one and that suits the elderly owner because they can't walk far any more? Do those owners love their animals any less because they chose them for particular breed traits? The cat world is exactly the same, and because people have a preconceived idea of what they need doesn't mean they'll love the cat any less if it turns out to be different. I'd never let a family have a kitten based on looks alone, so they won't be disappointed there. If the personality of the kitten doesn't mesh with what the family needs, and if that kitten doesn't like the new owners, then it doesn't go home with them, simple as that.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> People who want a pedegree should be directed to rescue cats, rather than getting an expensive trophy animal. I don't mean that offensivley to those who have pedegree's, I just don't understand it tbh.


I don't think you can understand it if you judge all cats only on looks and can only see pedigree breeds as 'trophy cats'. Different breeds have different characters and it is usually this that people want. It's OK to pick a breed of dog which suits your lifestyle, in fact it's seen as irresponsible not to - so why not make the same considered judgement with a cat?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

People here always hate me for saying this but I will say it anyway. It is simply nonsense to suggest that random bred cats are less healthy than health tested pedigrees. The reason we need health tests for pedigrees is because pedigrees are inbred and this means there is a far higher chance of deleterious genes doubling up. Add to this the fact that the average pedigree breeder has far more cats than the average moggy breeder and therefore far more likelihood of infection. Just take a look through the pictures on facebook groups, yahoo groups and the like, you will see eye infections left right and centre. You don't see those in most moggy litters because most moggy litters are born in houses with one one or two cats. I challenge anyone to find a vet who will agree that pedigrees are healthier than moggies, they simply aren't. As a pedigree breeder I wish they were but the reality is the opposite.

However in order to get kittens like Mum (if she is the longhaired blue one) you will need to choose an appropriate stud. That is going to be the difficult part.

Liz


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Purple said:


> If someone is so set on a cat looking or acting in a predetermined way, then that would give me concerns that they could give the unconditional love you should give to a pet, irrespective of how they actually turn out. People who want a pedegree should be directed to rescue cats, rather than getting an expensive trophy animal. I don't mean that offensivley to those who have pedegree's, I just don't understand it tbh. ?


Having had moggys in the past and now Pedigrees (for which I make NO apology) I find the little paragraph above really offensive. My cat is not a trophy animal he is a much loved pet, and yes I chose the breed mainly for temperament, however had he been outside of what is considered normal for a BSH it would not have changed how much we care for him. If you don't want to be offensive I suggest you consider the wording of your posts, as almost everyone on this post has done for you.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

There are MANY reasons to choose a pedigree over a moggie when wanting a cat as have already been mentioned & too agree that the comment about a trophy pet to be offensive.

Personally, I did so originally a I wanted to categorically know for a fact that the kitten had been socialised correctly and socialised with a dog too. The end result is I have a cat who lives with a dog AND enjoys this lifestyle because the kitten already knew what living with a dog was like. Could I be guaranteed this level of "bombproof" character from a kitten if it was a moggie from an unknown background bred by a person who didn't have a clue as they bred the once or from a rescue who had no idea where the kittens had come from as they were left abandoned somewhere? More than likely not. 

I have bred my first litter this year & no I didn't have a waiting list (I tried but most sought out a kitten that had already been born) but all were reserved/optioned before they were 6 weeks old. All owners had previously had the breed before & wanted one again as they couldn't imagine sharing a home with any other breed or moggie. Would these people have gone to a rescue or a moggie breeder if I had not bred this litter? No they would have waited patiently until someone had bred a litter of this breed. 

My trophy cats are here in my home for so many more reasons than their looks........


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Remember that Whatever stud you use if she is a long hair blue/cream will need to carry the long hair gene and blue, or I think most of the kittens would come out black or red!

And alot of breeders have told me that if you keep one back it doesnt mean that she will get on with the kitten, once their job is done at 12-13weeks of age (thats how long you keep them for and neuter / vac them before they leave) most of them dont want their kittens about and tell them to leave.

IF you are looking for a stud, you will only find find back yard breeders, your girl could catch feline aids or herpes or cat flu through mating and could pass it onto her kittens.

Good breeders fully heath test for these and and breed related illnesses, then plan the litter research lines, and possibly have 1 litter in a year, moggies, well, people dont care and their cats go out and mate anything all year round, which is why pedigrees/moggies are different, pedigrees dont clog up rescues, but people who dont neuter and want to earn money by chucking kittens out at 5-7weeks of age, WAY too young, then we pick them up at the rescue, I was looking after a litter of black & black & white kittens, still got a black one here, no one wants them 

Your friends will disappear once they kittens are born and they realise the responsibility that they take, then say all the people you sell to say 'I just want one litter?' so say she has 4 kittens, all of those have 'just one litter' and those people...and those people....etc, that one litter doesnt seem to small now does it?

Leave it to the proper breeders I say, if you want to experience kittens how about fostering? Kitten season is upon us and rescues are over whelmed.

OH and for getting a kitten at Christmas, thats because people are idiots who buy them as presents then get rid of them and dump them after, and rescues wont home at Christmas due to iodts who buy presents. You know nothing of her background, does her mum have a heart murmur? Does her dad have kidney disease? Were they brother and sister? Who knows! What about the stud you will pick? Do you honestly think that they care once the money is taken? OR any health tests will be done?

ID have a read of this sticky at the costs:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/215985-cost-breeding.html

Neutering your pet will be the best thing for her, youre the one who wants her to have a litter, she doesnt care either way as she is a cat, try not to humanise them.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If someone is so set on a cat looking or acting in a predetermined way, then that would give me concerns that they could give the unconditional love you should give to a pet, irrespective of how they actually turn out.


I do find this a very worrying comment. 'Loving' a long-haired cat but being too busy to groom it daily, 'loving' an extremely active or vocal breed but living in a small bedsit, 'loving' your cat so much that you won't take it to the vet because it 'doesn't like it'. I've seen so many examples of this sort of unconditional love and it's never in the interest of the cat. It certainly doesn't wash as an argument against people making a proper decision about what type of animal they can properly look after before they take one in - whatever the source.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> <snip>
> Different breeds have different characters and it is usually this that people want. It's OK to pick a breed of dog which suits your lifestyle, in fact it's seen as irresponsible not to - so why not make the same considered judgement with a cat?


So true. I love the madcap nature of my Orientals, and I've never come across a moggie with it. I also love their easy-care coats, and in general they are intelligent cats as well.

It's only since December that I've not had a moggie in the house - 20 years since I got my first two who were full of fleas and worms.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

catlove844 said:


> <snip>
> And alot of breeders have told me that if you keep one back it doesnt mean that she will get on with the kitten, once their job is done at 12-13weeks of age (thats how long you keep them for and neuter / vac them before they leave) most of them dont want their kittens about and tell them to leave.
> <snip>


Very true. I kept a kitten from the litter my girl had 20 years ago. Up to the point I still had her favourite kitten she was feeding both of them even though they were well-grown 12 week old kittens. The moment he went to his home that was it - the shutters were down on the milk bar and she never had anything to do with him again. he was bewildered, baffled, but thankfully her brother - his uncle - and he got on really well. Had that not happened he would have been better in a new home rather than seeing an uncaring mother flash past on her way to play with the local builders or the old couple with grandchildren.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry, Liz, but even Susan Little agrees that pedigrees are still healthy, and that we carry no more diseases than moggies. She states that the incidence of *genetic conditions* is higher due to restricted gene pools, but no more than that. We health test to get rid of these genetic faults, not because our cats are inbred and unhealthy. I certainly don't test for PKD because of in-breeding. I do it so that the next generation of Persians will have less of an incidence of this horrible condition.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

It is a shame that Purple is still considering allowing her cat to breed even though a number of people have explained why it is a bad idea.
Unfortunately this is typical of the attitude rescues have to deal with day in and day out.
To put it bluntly people are selfish - they do things for their own gratification (or out of ignorance, though you cannot say ignorance in this case because people have spelled out the situation very clearly)
All I can say is thank goodness we are lucky enough to have so many rescue charities and lone rescue volunteers who pick up the peices of other peoples irresponsible behaviour.
If we did not we would have a situation that they have in many other countries with huge populations of homeless cats and dogs living on the streets.
These animals lead short miserable lives and it could be prevented if people neutered their pets.
Remember the old saying "if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem".


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I had the same thing with a kitten that I kept back from my girl last year. When she got to about 4 months old, the mother regularly beat the kitten up, picked fights with her and was generally not a very nice mummy.


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

Aurelie said:


> Having had moggys in the past and now Pedigrees (for which I make NO apology) I find the little paragraph above really offensive. My cat is not a trophy animal he is a much loved pet, and yes I chose the breed mainly for temperament, however had he been outside of what is considered normal for a BSH it would not have changed how much we care for him. If you don't want to be offensive I suggest you consider the wording of your posts, as almost everyone on this post has done for you.


Agree entirely. Tia is my first pedigree cat. Yes, she has nice breeding but I didn't buy her for showing so she is certainly not a trophy cat as you call it Purple. I got her because I like the Siamese colouring and knew I wanted a people orientated, loving and vocal cat.

I am still amazed by the about of pet owners who still seem to think it is the right thing "to just let them have one litter" before getting them neutered.


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## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

Ive said several times on here that I'm not going to make a decision until I do some further research, both into the health implicaitons of breeding from her and as to the number of unwanted kitties in shelters. I came here wanting statisitcs and hard facts rather than opinions, as I am fully aware that the popular opinion is to neuter. Thats why I need to make sure that I am doing it for the right reasons, and not to follow the crowd. 

Some of what people have said has raised concerns to me about breeding her, and I am probably more reluctant now than I was, but I still need to finish my research before I come to a final decision - becuase it is a final decision which one cannot go back from (if it is to neuter anyway) - so no final decision yet right! 

As far as the pedigree point goes, I really feel that it comes from snobbery. Someone mentioned that they wanted a pedigree because they needed to make sure their cat was socialised with children, dogs etc, and not from some back street breeder who didn't know what they were doing. That reeks snobbery, and assumes that all moggies are some kind of unfortuante accident and from uncared for homes. I wish I asked more questions about the medical history of my girl (though she appears to be fine), but she was brought up with children, and has a perfect temperament. The previous litter I was considering (all got sold before I could see them), were raised on a farm, again with children and other animals around. 

I don't know a lot about cats, this being my first one, but its obvious that there is more variation in dogs in terms of size, temperament etc. The fact that some breeds have been trained for specific jobs (sled dogs, farm dogs, hunting dogs etc) has I think linked temperament to breed in a way you don't get to the same extent with cats. Also, pegidree dogs are far more common, accounting for 75% of dogs and just 8% of cats. Cats are all a similar-ish size, and whilst breed may indicate a particular type of temperament, there is less variation than say between a poodle a golden retriever. 

If someone chooses a pedigree specifically for a particular temperament, then I don't have a problem with it, how much is temperament really linked to breed? sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't, and surely that goes for moggies as well as with pedigrees. Theres nothing wrong with having a pedigree cat of course, but I don't think that makes it better or more breedable than any other cat. 

I feel that all cats are of equal worth, so saying that only those of a 'pure' racial background (which is what breed is really), should be bred, and effectivley that mixed race cats aren't good enough to reproduce from sets massive, massive alarm bells going in my head.


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## Purple (Jun 1, 2012)

Oh, just one other point. Again, it is a massive assumption to think that people who have said they would have a kitten would then dissapear. One is my brother and his wife, who live in a large country house which would be perfect for a cat. The other is my best friend. Both expressed an interest in getting a cat in 1-2 years time, independantly of my little monster possibly breeding.


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Purple said:


> Ive said several times on here that I'm not going to make a decision until I do some further research, both into the health implicaitons of breeding from her and as to the number of unwanted kitties in shelters. I came here wanting statisitcs and hard facts rather than opinions, as I am fully aware that the popular opinion is to neuter. Thats why I need to make sure that I am doing it for the right reasons, and not to follow the crowd.
> 
> Some of what people have said has raised concerns to me about breeding her, and I am probably more reluctant now than I was, but I still need to finish my research before I come to a final decision - becuase it is a final decision which one cannot go back from (if it is to neuter anyway) - so no final decision yet right!
> 
> ...


That's a big sweeping statement from someone who knows nothing about Pedigrees and almost nothing about owning a cat. This is the sort of thing I would expect to read in the Daily Mail.


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

Purple said:


> Oh, just one other point. Again, it is a massive assumption to think that people who have said they would have a kitten would then dissapear. One is my brother and his wife, who live in a large country house which would be perfect for a cat. The other is my best friend. Both expressed an interest in getting a cat in 1-2 years time, independantly of my little monster possibly breeding.


You are obviously trying to justify your own point of view but winding people on here up by making insinuations that they are snobs because they have a pedigree cat won't get you many supporters.

I can't see many people describing me as a snob! Good old working class, ex prison officer who took early retirement and is trying to live on a tiny pension at the moment......oh, and my beautiful Siamese cat is an indoor cat so hardly any of the neighbours even know I have her so she doesn't give me much street cred.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> how much is temperament really linked to breed?


Loads! As you said yourself, you don't know much about cats and your sweeping attitude towards pedigree cats is a block to you learning.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Purple, I am feeling deeply ashamed right now as many years ago before I was a nurse and was living with my Parents, we as a family decided we loved our Siamese so much that we wanted to breed from her. 

We found a registered stud near by and off our girl went! She was about a year old. The pregnancy and birth was text book! We were very very VERY lucky. She popped them out, latched them on, no help at all required from us ( she wanted us there though) they weaned, they had their injections and off they went to their new homes. Family, friends and the stud owner found homes for the others. We kept the very small little girl as mum and daughter got on so well ( she sadly died at aged 2) the mum was with us into her teens. 

Now the bit I want to really say.. I would NEVER do this again. We were too LUCKY. Knowing what I have learnt over the years of what could have happened to my dear dear cherrished cat, I just cringe at our actions. I could have all gone so horribly wrong!! 

Please think about this very seriously, if you love that cute little one, I would leave this breeding lark to the experts... They know what they are doing...


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Purple said:


> Thanks for replying.
> Its not something I'm going to decide on now, I've probably got another month or two to decide, so I'll take some time, do a bit more research and then make a decision based on all of that.
> 
> I do think though that if we shouldn't be breeding moggies then we shouldn't be breeding pedegrees either. If someone is so set on a cat looking or acting in a predetermined way, then that would give me concerns that they could give the unconditional love you should give to a pet, irrespective of how they actually turn out. People who want a pedegree should be directed to rescue cats, rather than getting an expensive trophy animal. I don't mean that offensivley to those who have pedegree's, I just don't understand it tbh.
> ...


I say this many, many times an I will say it again - I get turned down at rescues EVERY SINGLE TIME because (wait for it) my husband is in the forces! He is willing to leave me and the ids to go and lay down his life for his country at a moments notice but he can't adopt a rescue cat because he is obviously such a bad man with no morals that every time we move he will abandon his pets! Bulls poo poo!

We were driven to non rescue cats by the rescues! We went for pedigree as hubby isn't allergic to them and he is 90% of moggies. There is a difference in the hair structure because of the consistency on genetics. Many people find that they can have a ped but not a mog. I think you would understand if you had been in that situation. SO . . . there is a difference.

Whether you feel that is still not a reason for breeding peds is your choice. If ALL cats were neutered there would be no more cats that simple. Great for the rescues, bad for us owners.

I also think that saying that you shouldn't choose your cat on looks or temperament is a little flawed - I understand you have a blue/ cream tortie (a very pretty cat) - but did you choose her over others in the litter or did you close your eyes and pick completely at random? WOuld you have chosen her if she only had three legs and was blind in one eye over the other healthy kittens? (unrealistic I know but . . .) If I chose furniture for my home I chose what I like, if I chose a dress for an occasion I chose what I like, why shouldn't I do the same for my animals - and, for the record, I love black cats?

Finding a stud for your girl is going to be hard - and most likely the local moggy is a) feral, b) carrying diseases and c) black. So the kittens you will have would most likely be black, or black tortie. You would need to find a moggy male the is blue or carries blue (needs a DNA test to find this out) to get kittens like what you already have.

I, like Liz though, think that well bred moggies, health tested properly - not a simple vet check (DNA and blood tests) - mated to a similarly tested male, kittens kept for 12 weeks and sent to their new homes fully socialised and already vaccinated - isn't too bad. Yes people could go to rescue but many people get turned away.

However, if you are going to do it you need to do it sooner rather than later, as leaving a cat to call is dangerous. If you want a kitten in 1-2 years time you would be better off spaying now and getting a kitten then as you are putting the life of your cat at risk waiting.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Purple said:


> As far as the pedigree point goes, I really feel that it comes from snobbery. Someone mentioned that they wanted a pedigree because they needed to make sure their cat was socialised with children, dogs etc, and not from some back street breeder who didn't know what they were doing. That reeks snobbery, and assumes that all moggies are some kind of unfortuante accident and from uncared for homes. I wish I asked more questions about the medical history of my girl (though she appears to be fine), but she was brought up with children, and has a perfect temperament. The previous litter I was considering (all got sold before I could see them), were raised on a farm, again with children and other animals around.
> 
> I don't know a lot about cats, this being my first one, but its obvious that there is more variation in dogs in terms of size, temperament etc. The fact that some breeds have been trained for specific jobs (sled dogs, farm dogs, hunting dogs etc) has I think linked temperament to breed in a way you don't get to the same extent with cats. Also, pegidree dogs are far more common, accounting for 75% of dogs and just 8% of cats. Cats are all a similar-ish size, and whilst breed may indicate a particular type of temperament, there is less variation than say between a poodle a golden retriever.
> 
> ...


Have you seen the difference in size between a munchkin and a maine coon?:yikes: - the munchkin is about the size of a tiny Chihuahua and a Maine coon can get as big as a smallish medium sized dog! A big difference!

Temperament wise - yes temperament is passed on in the genes - the local moggy that has won the breeding rights in an area is a hoodlum and a fighter - he got where he was by being aggressive and tough and never giving in. A pedigree stud is chosen for his laid backedness, gentilitiy, and cuddliness. BECAUSE he will pass those traits on to his kittens.

The trouble is moggies are mass produced on a huge scle by many random matings and without regard for temperament. Most girls are let out the back door and go have it away with at least one male and then come back preggers, often too young. Peds are planned, the stud chosen carefully for his temperament and what he can bring to the breed. And he is healthy! Again a huge difference.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry please explain how wanting to know exactly what you get in terms of temperament, size & appearance is snobbery.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't currently have a pedigree cat & I find that snobbery comment offensive. One of the best cats we've ever owned was my childhood Siamese & I wouldn't hesitate when & if the time were ever right to have a pedigree cat again


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## Jenny1966 (Feb 7, 2011)

catlove844 said:


> .
> 
> OH and for getting a kitten at Christmas, thats because people are idiots who buy them as presents then get rid of them and dump them after, and rescues wont home at Christmas due to iodts who buy presents.


That's a bit harsh ...... I got Molly on Christmas Eve as a present for my OH, in no way am I an idiot! I would never 'dump' her! Dont assume everyone is the same.


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## SandyR (Oct 8, 2011)

Jenny1966 said:


> That's a bit harsh ...... I got Molly on Christmas Eve as a present for my OH, in no way am I an idiot! I would never 'dump' her! Dont assume everyone is the same.


I'm not sure they meant everyone who gets kittens for Christmas is an idiot just the ones who dump them.

I've been on both sides of this. A couple of years ago my husband got me my Georgie for christmas who I love very much. Last Christmas on boxing day I found an abandond 10 week old kitten which I would imagine was an unwanted present.

Unfortunatly not everyone is as kind and loving to cats as us. There are some cruel people around. Even if I had not be pleased to get a kitten (that's a ridiculous thought) I would not ever dump it!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

carly87 said:


> Sorry, Liz, but even Susan Little agrees that pedigrees are still healthy, and that we carry no more diseases than moggies. She states that the incidence of *genetic conditions* is higher due to restricted gene pools, but no more than that. We health test to get rid of these genetic faults, not because our cats are inbred and unhealthy. I certainly don't test for PKD because of in-breeding. I do it so that the next generation of Persians will have less of an incidence of this horrible condition.


Of course you do, but the point is that in a moggy population the condition is almost unknown precisely because the gene pool is vastly larger. You test for known conditions, so do I, but not every pedigree breeder does. Now to be fair my breed is the second most inbred there is, so things will not be as bad in some other breeds, but the difference in size and health between my pedigree litters and my outcross litters is frightening.

Liz

Liz


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but the point is that in a moggy population the condition is almost unknown precisely because the gene pool is vastly larger


Overall it is but the most inbred populations are in fact feral colonies and farm cats. A housing estate isn't really much different in that there can be one or two entire toms roaming the area and impregnating their own children/granchildren/great-grandchildren.

To be honest it makes me laugh when people tell me pedigree cats are inbred and mogs aren't. I can at least prove the efforts I go to in order to produce kittens without common ancestry. Deliberately producing kittens from a position of absolute ignorance of background doesn't mean they're not inbred.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> Overall it is but the most inbred populations are in fact feral colonies and farm cats. A housing estate isn't really much different in that there can be one or two entire toms roaming the area and impregnating their own children/granchildren/great-grandchildren.


That is very fair comment, so if you get a female kitten from very near to where you live, you certainly are running a risk if you let her out to breed.

Liz


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

Purple just out of interest, your moggy although very beautiful doesn't look like a typical moggy does she? Funny that you have been incredibly rude about Pedigree cats and their owners and yet you chose a kitten that you don't really think looks like moggie - so much so that you even posted on Cat Chat to ask what kind of cat you have.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

yes kittens may sell like hotcakes, but look at rescues and see how many are at about 8months+. i can tell you, LOTS! as they grow out of the kitten stage and people no longer want them.

ive worked in a rescue 2 years now and kittens go quickly and the ones that take longest to rehome are the older ones.

in no way are pedigree breeders snobs! a lot of them are the nicest people you will ever meet. they may come across as snobs to you as you seem to not understand pedigree cat breeding very much, which isnt snobbery its just difference in knowledge.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

jimbo_28_02 said:


> in no way are pedigree breeders snobs! a lot of them are the nicest people you will ever meet. they may come across as snobs to you as you seem to not understand pedigree cat breeding very much, which isnt snobbery its just difference in knowledge.


I don't know if I would define it as snobbery but there does seem to be double standards here, in that the breeders think it is okay to breed kittens as long as the cat has a pedigree. Yet if the cat's parentage is unknown they should not be bred from.
If there are too many cats in the country there are too many cats and breeding more is still adding to the population.
I know people will say but people want my kittens - which is exactly what people who breed non peds say.
Actually there is a bit of snobbery from some people because people say things like my breed is so affectionate, I love the look of my breed, my cats have got such great personalities implying mogs don't have these qualities - which of course they do.
I suppose there will always be a difference of opinion between those who like a certain breed and those who just love cats.
Some of us love our cats for the exact opposite reasons to pedigree owners in that they are very ordinary, disabled, possibly even unattractive in some peoples eyes and that is why we take them to our hearts.
One thing I do find irritating is the perception that people who breed pedigree cats are experts on the subject. They are no more expert than rescues who look after many more cats and kittens than most breeders.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

scatchy said:


> I don't know if I would define it as snobbery but there does seem to be double standards here, in that the breeders think it is okay to breed kittens as long as the cat has a pedigree. Yet if the cat's parentage is unknown they should not be bred from.
> If there are too many cats in the country there are too many cats and breeding more is still adding to the population.
> I know people will say but people want my kittens - which is exactly what people who breed non peds say.
> Actually there is a bit of snobbery from some people because people say things like my breed is so affectionate, I love the look of my breed, my cats have got such great personalities implying mogs don't have these qualities - which of course they do.
> ...


the difference is that breeders health test their pedigree cats. moggies are not health tested so it can cause more cases of inherited illnesses. the reason behind wanting to know the parentage is that you are able to see what genetic illnesses are within the parentage so that you do not make these illnesses worse and are able to breed this out.

also are you going to just abandon a cat that cost you say £500+? not as likely as a kitten you got from a free to good home or cheaply.

i have 4 rescue cats, never had a pedigree, but i can understand why pedigree is a good way to breed instead of the oops litters you tend to get with irresponsible owners and usually with moggies.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> They are no more expert than rescues who look after many more cats and kittens than most breeders


Experience and true interest are what makes someone an expert but you do have to be careful not to become insular. Breeding for a long time or turning up to the same rescue for years doesn't increase knowledge in any useful way. People tend to know what's relevant to their field - and what they've bothered to learn outside it. If you add up the experience of the people who I can call on for opinion it will come to a total of hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Some are breeders, some are 'ordinary' vets and some are names in feline research. Over the years you build a large number of such friends and contacts if you are interested enough. Most of the seminars etc. I've attended over the years have been open to veterinary professionals and other interested parties as well as breeders. There's no reason why being in rescue wouldn't result in the same knowledge base if someone was committed to keeping up to date. It could be that I've always gravitated to breeders at such events so it may be unfair to say they do seem to be the group with the biggest thirst for knowledge but honestly, it is how it seems most of the time.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Purple said:


> <snip>
> As far as the pedigree point goes, I really feel that it comes from snobbery. Someone mentioned that they wanted a pedigree because they needed to make sure their cat was socialised with children, dogs etc, and not from some back street breeder who didn't know what they were doing. That reeks snobbery, and assumes that all moggies are some kind of unfortuante accident and from uncared for homes.
> <snip>


Now calling all of us with pedigree cats snobs is really not the way to make friends and influence people.

For the record, I did give a link which went into the risks of breast cancer:
01 Mammary Cancer in Cats - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

This is what it has to say on protective factors:


> Early spay is the single most significant protective factor. Spaying before age 6 months results in a 91% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 1 year results in an 86% reduction in risk. Spaying before age 2 years leads to an 11% reduction in risk. *Having given birth to kittens has no effect on mammary cancer risk*. Spaying after age 2 years does not reduce the risk of mammary cancer development at all.


The bold is mine, I've added it as in women having children and breast-feeding has a protective effect.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> there does seem to be double standards here, in that the breeders think it is okay to breed kittens as long as the cat has a pedigree. Yet if the cat's parentage is unknown they should not be bred from.


I'm sure it's fine to mate two cats of unknown parentage as long as someone doing so pays out for DNA testing to ensure they aren't closely related. Do that, pay out for all the other relevant tests undertaken by responsible breeders, take good care of the kittens until they're vaccinated and ready for new homes, keep any which you don't find homes for and there won't be ANY of what you're calling snobbery. There's no double standard here at all - at least not the way round you're claiming.


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

I have always has rescue cats, all Moggys. Some from CPL, some that just turned up at our door. Back then I had nobody else to consider. Now I have a 2 year old son, he's quite loud and boisterous. Very gentle around cats but what I mean us our house is busy. I purposely chose a pedigree this time round for 2 reasons.
1) the breed I chose has a very laid back nature. Very good with children. My cat is textbook when it comes to this. He's exactly as the breed should be. Therefore he is happy and relaxed in our family home and him and my son are firm friends.
2) my son is allergic to some cats. Not all, but this was a particular breed he seems ok with. This tends to often be the case with allergy sufferers as the hair shafts in pedigrees are different.

I chose a pedigree for the first time in my life for sensible and practical reasons. I dont regret it one bit.
In the future if I get another cat when I don't have the family situation I do now then it will be a rescue mog again.
Don't shoot us down for this.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

scatchy said:


> Some of us love our cats for the exact opposite reasons to pedigree owners in that they are very ordinary, disabled, possibly even unattractive in some peoples eyes and that is why we take them to our hearts.


One of my pedigree cats is disabled.



> One thing I do find irritating is the perception that people who breed pedigree cats are experts on the subject. They are no more expert than rescues who look after many more cats and kittens than most breeders.


After 20 years of regular breeding, and with a degree in Biology, I do think I have some expertise, yes.

Liz


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## Siberiancat (Apr 8, 2012)

Quote from scratchyI suppose there will always be a difference of opinion between those who like a certain breed and those who just love cats.
Some of us love our cats for the exact opposite reasons to pedigree owners in that they are very ordinary, disabled, possibly even unattractive in some peoples eyes and that is why we take them to our hearts.

What a narrow minded statement i own a pedigree my reason: i have a cat allergy and my daughter has asthma. I never thought id be able to own a cat . Until last year i decided to reasearch breeds and came accross several that produce less of the protein that causes allergens. My daughter and i went for an allergy test and had no reaction.

I do happen to love all cats not just pedigrees

*First paragraph is quote from scratchy


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I suppose there will always be a difference of opinion between those who like a certain breed and those who just love cats


You can't do both? You don't count as just loving cats unless you keep one of every breed, shape, colour? Surely every cat lover has to restrict themselves in the number the own but it doesn't mean they don't appreciate others


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't know ANYONE who supports a breed who dislikes all other breeds/cats. What a peculiar train of thought - it isn't a mutually exclusive concept. 

There are people who do not like certain breeds for certain reasons (ie Munchkins, Scottish folds for heath issue reasons or Sphynx/Persian for extreme look reasons) but nothing more.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'd like to see the rescue that has the expertese to plan a mating between two cats taking into consideration the health testing/issues, genetic make up, temperament etc. I'd like to see the rescue that knows the history of any kittens produced sometimes back for more than 7 or 8 generations, and who can tell you all of the problems with those lines as well as the good points. I'm sorry, but while I do agree that rescues *could* have the expertese in breeding, why would they? It's counter-productive to what they're trying to accomplish, i.e, reduction in numbers. While they are definitely expert in looking after kittens, we're not talking about that aspect. We're talking about breeding.

<snip>
Some of us love our cats for the exact opposite reasons to pedigree owners in that they are very ordinary, disabled, possibly even unattractive in some peoples eyes and that is why we take them to our hearts.
<snip>
I find this comment incredibly offensive on a number of levels. Firstly, to suggest that pedigree owners might not be able to love a disabled cat is ridiculous. Secondly, I keep and breed pedigrees, and have a disability myself. I find it very offensive to have it suggested that I wouldn't love a disabled cat. With my own experience of disability, why wouldn't I? I am blind, so couldn't have chosen my cats on the basis of attractiveness, and as far as ordinary goes, mine are about as ordinary as it gets! They're lazy fat lumps, they pee, they poo, they eat and drink. They're fussy beggars and they insist on attacking my toes under the covers at night. They puke just like any other cat. They don't have superman suits tucked away in the cupboard just because they're pedigrees. Nope, they're just plain old felines.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

As usual some people seem to have misunderstood my post .
I never said I am against people owning a pedigree cat - my point was why do people that BREED pedigree cat think that is okay but moggy owners should not breed from their cats.
Seems like a case of "don't do as I do, do as I say".

I consider the fact that a cat has been DNA tested irrelevant - what does that mean? if people got their non-pedigree cats tested then suddenly it would be okay for everyone to breed from them?
I don't beleive pedigree cats are more healthy, if anything the opposite.
e.g. look at how persians have been deliberately bred to have excessively flat faces and the related eye problems. That is down to the breeders.

Some breeds started as genetic mutations and yet people have deliberately set out to create a breed from them with the inevitable tiny gene pool).
With so many cats already why do this? 


If we followed the route of only breeding pedigrees eventually the rescue centres would be full of them in the same way rescue kennels are completely swamped with staffies, collies and jack russells.

As far as I am concerned you become an expert by gaining a wide range of experience over a a long period of time.
Breeding the occasional litter does not make you an expert - a bit of working knowledge - that is all.
A lot of the comments made only serve to reinforce my view that people who breed cats often have a superior view, thinking they know best.

Yes, of course you can like pedigree and non pedigree cats, but if that is the case, all the while there are so many homeless cats would it not then be better to give a home to a cat that needs one(regardless of breed/ colour/whatever) rather than keep creating more.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> my point was why do people that BREED pedigree cat think that is okay but moggy owners should not breed from their cats.
> Seems like a case of "don't do as I do, do as I say".


Absolutely the opposite. It's a case of 'do as we do'. 


> I consider the fact that a cat has been DNA tested irrelevant - what does that mean?


Responsible breeders don't randomly mate cats without knowing their parentage. The only way you can check that with mogs is to DNA test. You can't decide to risk a mating between close relatives and then disclaim the resultant condemnation as snobbery. If you knew of a breeder of pedigree cats inbreeding like this you'd jump on it as proof we all have horns and tails yet you appear to believe it would be OK with non pedigree cats. Why?


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Purple said:


> I suppose at the heart of this isn't whether I think I have the right to breed a litter, but whether its right to make this decision on behalf of another creature - that is what I'm wrestling with. THe line has to be drawn somewhere, but the question is where.


You are making decisions on her behalf if you let her have a litter, just the same.
Your feeling is that it goes against nature, which I totally agree with.

But present-day cats, except for truly feral ones (and I don't mean farm cats, I mean cats that really live wild), are not living a natural life in any way at all.

It is unnatural for a cat to live with humans and even dogs
It is unnatural for a cat to live in a domestic setting
It is unnatural for a cat to live amongst cars and mopeds
It is unnatural for a cat to have more than one kitten per 5 litters survive it's first year.
It is unnatural for a female cat to live beyond 4 or 5 years, for by then she will have had a litter gone wrong, either dying inside her or a kitten getting stuck during birth, which will kill her and the kittens.

So in that respect, the 'not-natural- argument is a non-argument. If you really want your cat to 'enjoy' a natural life, you let her loose in the forest, have her mounted by any disease-ridden tom and she will die in childbirth, if she isn't killed by a larger predator, first.

If you want your cat to have the benefits of domesticated life, you must adapt her lifestyle to that domestication.
One aspect of domestication is that if the mother cat does not die in childbirth, most of the kittens will survive the first 12 weeks, and the ones that do are likely to live for another 15 to 20 years.

You say there is no kitten surplus, that kittens are easy to find a home for.
That may be true, but at least half of these impulse- owners get bored of their kittens when they are no longer cute and fluffy. Or they will lose their job, or have a baby, or find aboyfriend/girlfriend that doesn't like cats or is allergic. About 50% of all cats get rehomed or chucked out on the streets *at least once *during their lifetime.
There are millions of abandoned moggies living out their lives in pens, and getting killed if they cannot be rehomed.

I promise you, if you breed moggies, even a single litter, *at the very least one of them will end up that way*.
And your sweet little moggy kittens will be usurping the places in cat-loving homes that should have gone to one of these poor cats pining away in rescues.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> Responsible breeders don't randomly mate cats without knowing their parentage. The only way you can check that with mogs is to DNA test. You can't decide to risk a mating between close relatives and then disclaim the resultant condemnation as snobbery. If you knew of a breeder of pedigree cats inbreeding like this you'd jump on it as proof we all have horns and tails yet you appear to believe it would be OK with non pedigree cats. Why?


If it only were as simple as that....
Take a healthy moggy, get a healthy moggy from another part of the country, so you are sure they are not related, and you can safely mate them.....

Alas, even totally unrelated cats can be carriers of the same hereditary diseases. If they only carry the faulty gene, they will appear totally healthy, but they will transmit the faulty gene to their offspring. And if both parents carry that gene, the babies will have the disease.

And some diseases will hit them, even if they get it from only one parent. But if it has not as yet affected the parent, there is no way of knowing the parent carries that disease except for genetic testing.

So 2 apparently healthy unrelated moggies may still give any number of hereditary diseases to their ofspring.

This is why the genetics of pure-bred cats are so important.
The breeder will know if certain diseases run in the bloodline of the stud and the queen. Even if the cats themselves do not have the disease, cats with the genetic predisposition for the same disease somewhere in their bloodline will always be considered a genetic mismatch and will not be mated.

You know nothing of the genetics of your cats bloodline, so you would need to do a full DNA test for* all known genetically transferable diseases* on *both your moggy and the moggy woy want to mate her with*, in order to deliver kittens with the clean bill of health a good breeder will give you.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Purple said:


> I feel that all cats are of equal worth, so saying that only those of a 'pure' racial background (which is what breed is really), should be bred, and effectivley that mixed race cats aren't good enough to reproduce from sets massive, massive alarm bells going in my head.


Purple, nobody is saying that. I have, and have only ever had, moggies. I am a rescue volunteer and it has certainly opened my eyes to the horrors of unwanted litters, dumped kittens, abandoned cats, abused cats and too many cats. Yes, you may do your best to ensure that your kittens go to the best homes. But, I promise you (and trust me on this): people can let you down, even family and close friends. I have seen this time and time and time again. People I thought were winners in terms of providing a good home, a year later rehoming their cats because (a) getting a divorce; (b) having a baby, (c) new puppy, (d) Husband is "allergic"; (e) emigrating (f) new landlord won't allow animals; (g) financial worries (H) new boyfriend/husband hates cats etc etc. The list of excuses from what I had thought of as trustworthy people is endless and surprising. I have come to the conclusion that the only person who can take care of any cats to do with me, is me. Therefore, all my moggies are neutered/spayed. I can assure you, cats neither want nor need to have kittens. In fact, almost all of the pregnant ferals I have fostered were properly fed up with the kittens by the time they were weaned and wanted nothing to do with them. 
Really we should not assign human emotions and desires to cats. It leads us to making sentimental and unwise decisions on behalf of the felines we love. We make every other decision for our cats: what food they eat, vaccination, indoor/outdoor, discipline, so I feel strongly that spaying and neutering is our responsibility and our obligation.


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## Jansheff (Jan 31, 2011)

Jiskefet said:


> You say there is no kitten surplus, that kittens are easy to find a home for.
> That may be true, but at least half of these impulse- owners get bored of their kittens when they are no longer cute and fluffy. Or they will lose their job, or have a baby, or find aboyfriend/girlfriend that doesn't like cats or is allergic. About 50% of all cats get rehomed or chucked out on the streets *at least once *during their lifetime.


This is so true and I never even realised it myself until I started looking at the Facebook page for 'pets for sale or free' in my local area. Loads of cats on there (and dogs for that matter) being rehomed, some as young as 5 months, so the so-called owners have only kept them for 2 or 3 months before getting rid. All the above excuses - having a baby, allergies, moving house, or - and this one really gets me because it tries to make out they are doing it for the good of the animal - 'can't give him/her the time she deserves'.

Kittens might intially find homes easily, but they don't keep them.

As for pedigree/moggy debate - we have had 4 moggies and 2 pedigrees. We now have 2 peds and 1 moggy. We chose the 2 (Burmese) pedigrees for 2 reasons

a) we wanted as short hair as possible because of my asthma - although looks as such didn't really matter.
b) temperament - you have a cat 15 years plus and although lots of moggies have lovely temperaments it's more predictable (usually) with pedigrees.They tend to have personality "traits" such as active, laid back, very affectionate, vocal, etc. We wanted active, loving cats, as we have children (who were 9 and 11 at the time) so they'd be happy playing and snuggling with us all. If we'd chosen moggies which grew up to be aloof and not people orientated (we used to have a female, Sophie, before who wanted food, but little more contact with us at all), we would have them for the next 15 or more years - by the time our next "chance" to adopt came around the children would have grown up and probably left home! We felt it was a more certain way of getting the sort of pets we wanted to join our family. Let's face it we keep pets (cats or dogs) for pleasure, love and companionship and if they don't want to know us, we would miss that and it's disappointing - but by that time, you've committed yourself to providing a home for that animal for life.

Having said that, we also adopted a rescue cat from the RSPCA, because we also wanted to help a homeless cat and he's lovely too.

I call that making responsible decisions, and making sure you commit to the lifetime ownership of an animal that suits your circumstances and family - not snobbery.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

I myself struggled with the issues of breeding when i bought my two norwegian forest cats . I really felt bad about buying a cat(s) when there are so many in rescue  Previously , i was "anti breeder" but due to how i felt , i started researching and it gradually dawned upon me that .....

If no-one bred pedigrees , there would be no pedigrees ! no persians , no maine coon etc etc .. surely , we don't want to lose any of these breeds ?

Moggies on the other hand are (in my opinion ) in great supply and i strongly oppose breeding them and owners not neutering 

I've always had rescue cats until i got my norwegian forest cats 

The only reason i chose my pedigrees was because i REALLY wanted a semi longhaired black cat :001_wub::001_wub: none of the rescues had any longhair blacks and whilst searching , i came across a breeder who had black NFCs 

No snobbery here at all , i love all cats but of course i have a preference . As i simply cannot take every cat i meet , i decided to look for exactly what i wanted, longhaired and black 

As it turned out , the breeder also had tabbies and i was torn so got one of each !  

Re temperament ...... i have to say that my two NFCs fit the "profile" for their breed and their introduction to my 3 other cats was the easiest i've ever done


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

For the record, Purple, I have never owned a pedigree, and I will never own one, unless soneone seeks to rehome a BSH.
All my cats are rescue cats or rehomed cats, and if you knew their life stories, you would think twice, or rather 2000 times, before breeding from your cat.

I will start with my latest addition, MacLeod. He is the brother of my kitten Gaudi, who died 2 months ago of FIP. Another brother died of FIP when only 8 weeks old, so chances are that MacLeod will not get very old. I took him from the rescue after Gaudi died, because I feel it is unfair to let other people adopt a seemingly healthy cat, while in fact he may well be doomed. The mother and 4 1-month-old kittens were found on the street. The owner let her roam, unspayed, and she would disappear for months on end, once or twice a year. She had been handed over to a rescue with a previous litter, but the owner had taken her back without spaying her. Her previous litter did not survive, and of this litter 2 cats are still alive.

Gaudi: well, Gaudi's story is that of MacLeod. 

Xena: found motherless at a campsite at the age of 6 weeks. Reared in a rescue and rehomed to me at 12 weeks.

Wobbel: had a lovely life with a lovely couple in Gouda, till they split up. The man first threw out his wife, and then her cat. Wobbel lived on the streets for nearly a year, was taken in by neighbours, who could not keep him because their own cats didn't like him, so they sought a new home for him: us.

Josje and Daisy were the cats of a friend who died of chronic heart and lung failure. I took them in after her death. Daisy died within 2 months after her, she developed FIP, we think the stress of her beloved mommy's illness and death played a part in this. Daisy was a farm kitten and this corona virus, that may develop into FIP is rife in farm cat populations.

Ricky was dumped in a rescue at the age of 2, because he demolished the house. The owner was never home, and the poor cat was bored and neglected, and suffered from separation anxiety. It took great effort and lots of TLC to turn him into a happy healthy cat again.

Tosca is a semi-feral, she lives in the park opposite our street and only comes home to eat. We got her from a rescue, who caught her with her mother and brother when the kittens were just over 4 months old. We never managed to 'tame' her, she is still feral, but she recongnizes us as 'home'. No-one but us will ever set eyes on her. Her mother was spayed and rehomed, but escaped, and was later seen in the same area where she was first caught with Tosca and Teuntje. She went back to her feral life.

Catweazle was 5 yrs old when he was found roaming in a village. He got lost once while living with us, wandering off too far and not knowing the way home. Fortunately, we knew where he went, so we went after him and found him. He probably strayed from his original home in the same way, and may have come a long way before he was found, for no-one in the region ever claimed him.

My deceased cat Spetter looked like a miniature BSH, so he may have been from an oops-litter. He was a tiny tomcat, 2 years old when we got him, but the size of a 6-month kitten. He suffered from respiratory problems due to chronic cat flue, so he probably did not grow up with responsible owners. He must have contracted the cat flu as a kitten and gone without treatment, so in all likelihood he was never vaccinated or seen by a vet.

Precious was 16½ when we got her, another oops-litter. The tom was a Persian stud, who had escaped and had his way with a very young neighbouring cat that was scheduled for spaying the next month. She had her kittens in a barn and rejected them, and they were found the next day, all dead. When they were burying them, soneone saw one little paw move slightly..... Precious was still barely alive. She was bottle-reared, her slave fed her every 2 hours for 3 or 4 weeks. When her slaves were emigrating, they simply assumed Precious would come with them. But when they found out about the length of the flight, the quarantaine etc, they feared they would not see her alive again, and decided to find her a new home, which was us.

Jiskefet was another semi-feral. Caught hunting in the polder with mother and brother, he suffered a severe bout of cat flu, even though he had been vaccinized. But apparently he was already carryeng the proper cat flu virus, too. We managed to save him, but only just.....

Steffie and Tuppence were rehomed because the lady that owned them had found a new man, who had a cat of his own, or rather, his deceased wife's cat, which he would not part with. But this cat terrorized her cats even in her house, and they would be moving into his flat, the other cat's territory. So Steffie and Tuppence needed to be rehomed.


If you look at all these stories, each cat, in his or her own way, tells you why to spay. They have all been homeless, unwanted or superfluous at some point in life, and some of them have been ill as a result of their involuntary wandering.


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## Lel (Mar 21, 2012)

I'd like to thank jiskefet for bringing this discussion back on track and away from a pedigree vs moggy debate! 

I really hope Purple reads this and takes these stories seriously.


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## ace85 (Aug 16, 2011)

Purple said:


> As far as the pedigree point goes, I really feel that it comes from snobbery...


Forgive me, for I fully intended to silently lurk throughout the ridiculous unfolding of this thread, with its profusion of bleeding-heart-liberal comments from you on behalf of your animal and deeply flawed logic. However, I saw these particular comments, then saw red.

The issue here is _controlled_ breeding. You can say what you will about prestige or trophy pets, but the largest advantage to pedigree breeding is the fact that strict implementations must be met in terms of welfare and genetic traceability to achieve and retain GCCF or TICA privileges. At a swoop, this reduces the risk for animal cruelty, improves breeding stock and produces better informed pet owners. Point me in the direction of a similar system in place for moggy breeding if you can - I would honestly love to see one. Paying £500 for a cat may seem like snobbery to you, but perhaps such a process ensures that people have an investment in the welfare of their pet, and won't just turf it out the door the second that lifestyle changes warrant it? Heaven forbid that we were to restrict access to pet ownership for people who won't take it seriously 

Despite the hedging of your comments, neither myself nor most of the posters contributing so far with their reasoned arguments will be surprised if you turn up in a few months' time with the inevitable 'new kittens' thread. There are already more cats than willing homes out there, and if you are truly such an animal lover and humanitarian, perhaps you might seriously want to consider the implications of adding metaphorical water to an already overflowing tub.

To counter the obvious question, yes I do own pedigrees. The reason for that is that I can guarantee the upbringing and quality of life of such an animal. People will always want to breed and own cats so, in light of that, it seems sensible to me to do so in an environment that is designed to benefit the animal ahead of financial or self-satisfying concerns of the owner


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## Mo1959 (Mar 31, 2012)

Excellent post Ace, but I suspect we will hear no more from Purple, at least under that name!


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## broccoli (Jul 1, 2011)

Purple said:


> I think I'll see whether there are indeed lots of kittens seeking homes in the summer months, as if there are, I wouldn't want to deprive them of good homes - it just hasn't been my expeirence when trying to buy a kitten.
> .


also look from august onwards for adverts from people getting rid of 4-6 month old kittens - when they are less 'cute' and more adventerous 
many are not vaccinated or neutered.

they'll say moving/new job/allergy but many are fibbing (to put it politely!)

one woman near me has been named & shamed for getting kittens at 6  weeks and getting rid at 12 -16 weeks when she gets a new littler one - she has given them to rescue centres with excuses 
she has done this for years


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## RabbitMonster (Mar 20, 2012)

Just wanted to add my thoughts.

I have a moggy Molly, and I think she is the most beautiful little cherub I have ever seen, and should she ever have kittens, I don't doubt they would be absolute stunners. On the other hand, her health and well being is vital to me. Having seen her in heat and being spayed, it's clear to me that her being spayed is much better for her, she's happier and chattier. To put a cat through heats for the next 1-2 years is just awful, it's so obvious how stressful it can be for them and it puts the whole house on edge, making sure they don't escape.

I'm now looking at getting a ped and two rescue cats next year. I'm going for a ped because I want a cat that will be easy to introduce and I'm going for the rescues as I want to rescue.

I would never, ever, ever breed as I have no idea what I'm doing and I love my Molls so much I could never risk losing her due to a complicated pregnancy. I would ask that you take into serious consideration the risk you're posing on your cat, and I feel that if you really loved your girl, you wouldn't take the risk of mating her.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

I think the only hope the cat won't have a litter, is that she does go along to a rescue group, and falls in love with a couple of them, and is told they are going to be put down, but even then, I fear she will be looking out for a likely male to use, and trying to find a reason to get him home, pre desexing.

How do you read all the depressing, heartbreaking reasons NOT to breed, and then say, I might have to wait a month or 2 more, to research more... what IS left to research? The heartbreak of dog rescue is So killing, and I know cat rescue is far worse. It is like explaining about fur in clothes and having someone say, but I want to wear it. ?!?!!! Then the anthropomorphic, "I don't want to take her choice from her... just murmer the words fulfil her... The females don't even like sex, it's all hormone. I wonder if someone had explained what her precious girl would experience, and the noise...

I do have a cheer you up image, tho. I knew someone with a cat rescue setup. She took in a Birman? not big on cat breeds, who had a cleft palette (hmmm spelling?). He was about 5 and his wet food would spill out of his NOSE. Very sad. He is believed to be the first cleft repair, in Oz, tho a childrens programme claimed they were filming the first, tho that was filmed a good 2 years after this cat's op. He was one of the most loving and good natured cats anyone had ever met. Obviously desexed, he hadn't been taken, due to his story, but he would visit all the new mums, and curl up with the tiny 4 and 6 week orphans, and one day, (I was lucky enough to see it, later), the woman running it found him on his back, purring away, with the orphan kittens, suckling away, happily. (no milk, but it must have been soothing...)


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