# Which food would you choose. Orlando or CSJ Champ! ?



## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Hello,

Bit of a dilemma here. Currently feed dog who is 44kg Husky Cross Orlando Chicken & Veg which he does ok on apart from getting hot spots sometimes (Unknown if it's the food causing it but it could be wheat content) but bit worried not knowing the full contents in the food as it's like, Cereals, Meat and Animal Derivatives, antioxidants & colorants etc.

So giving him a trial on CSJ Natural Champ! and he likes it also and the contents are allot better as we know what's in them. However it still has wheat content and it also contains Unmolassed Beet Pulp which is known to potentially cause potential gastric torsion and other problems in bigger dogs.

So wondering which you would choose, a food not knowing what the Cereals, Meat and Animal Derivatives, antioxidants & colorants etc contents are, or a food which you know that the conents such as meat content is of much higher quality but has Unmolassed Beet Pulp in it which can potentially cause the other problems in a big dog.

Budget don't allow for anything better unfortunately, but it's £6 for 10kg sack for Orlando and £10 for 15kg sack for the CSJ.

Please let me know which would you feed your dog if given only these two choices. I would also appreciate more feedback regarding the Unmolassed Beet Pulp if possible. He's a very active dog who lives in the countryside.

Detailed info on both foods below.
_____________________________________________________________

*Orlando Chicken & Veg*

Composition -

*Cereals, Meat and Animal Derivatives (4% chicken in the chicken kibbles), Oils & Fats, Vegetables (4% Vegetables in the Vegetables kibbles), Minerals, antioxidants & colorants. 
*
Analytical Constituents -

* Protein 25.0%
Crude Oils & Fat 8.0%
Crude Fibres 3.0%
Crude Ash 9.0%
Calcium 2.0%
*
____________________________________________________________

*CSJ Natural Champ!
*
Composition -

*Wheat, Beef & Lamb Meal, Maize, Chicken Fat, Chicken Liver, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Salt, Yucca Schidigera.*

Analytical Constituents -

* Protein 20.0%
Fat Content 10.0%
Crude Fibre 3.0%
Crude Ash 9.0%*


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Goodness, I wouldn't feed either - both are absolutely terrible quality 

What about Skinners duck & rice - still very cheap, but miles better - and you needn't feed as much with the better foods.

Maybe this can help you find something within your budget - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks for the reply.

What do you find wrong with the CSJ food? Is it the beep pulp? (That is main thing unsure on)

There's not to much to go on with that review website really. I know people who used stuff like Wagg on big dogs for them to live to 14 years without any problems, in-fact one of my last dogs lived to 12 on wagg his full life, I know its suppose to be a really bad food though and I still don't trust it even if dogs go ok with them for their whole life. Others say they used CSJ champ for years on big dogs without any problems, and similar with Orlando, though the contents look bad people have had good sucess with it, but it all depends on how the dog does on a certain food I think.

Naturally I would prefer to get something of higher quality. The problem is not all of us have an option to spend more on food due to low income etc.

There is complete tripe:
Complete Tripe! - CSJK9 Ltd.

How does it compare to Skinners Duck and Rice ? In about 2-4 months will be able to afford to get something of higher quality again so was considering CSJ complete tripe but if can get Skinners Duck and Rice for £20 max posted I'd get that if it's better (Do you have any tips where to get it)

Thanks again for the reply.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

No, it's the wheat and maize that I do not like about the CSJ - dogs cannot digest either, they're both needless fillers. And it doesn't specify the meat content of the food.

I'm not impressed by the Tripe CSJ either - it stills contains maize. Skinners duck & rice, although very rice heavy, doesn't contain wheat or maize and is hypoallergic - VetUK do 15kg for £21, free delivery and an extra 10% off if you buy two bags - Skinners Field and Trial Duck and Rice Dog Food 15Kg - £21.34

The Dry Dog Food Index that I linked you to isn't a review site, it's just a thread on here. It has the approximate daily feeding costs listed, and clearly (I hope) sets out the good, fair and poor quality foods - which is why I thought it might be beneficial in finding something decent within your budget.

I really would avoid all CSJ (apart from their No Grainer food), the Orlando food and Wagg at all costs - IMO, Skinners duck is the best budget dry.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Jomox said:


> I know people who used stuff like Wagg on big dogs for them to live to 14 years without any problems, in-fact one of my last dogs lived to 12 on wagg his full life, I know its suppose to be a really bad food though and I still don't trust it even if dogs go ok with them for their whole life.


Yeah, and my dog died of stomach cancer. I fed him Wagg. The vet said nutrition is directly linked to cancer. Maybe I was unlucky: my dog sure was. 

Avoid cereal, meat derivatives, beet pulp. All are horrible. Cereal and beet pulp are pure fillers, so worthless. What colourants are in the Orlando? Some are fine, others are appalling and why use colourants in dog food? The dog sure don't care!


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

cinammontoast I am so sorry


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Never tried CSJ, but have tried Orlando when my Mum thought she was doing me a favour by buying loads of dog food cheap! It didn't have any bad effects on my dogs, but they are made of steel inside I think 

I wouldn't choose to feed either. Skinners is a really good alternative for the price.


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks for replies and sorry to hear about your dog " cinammontoast" as said it really matters on the dog and how it does on certain food, some dogs are much more sensitive to what you feed them.

The skinners looks good but it does contain beet bulp, anything that don't contain it for around that price? The CSJ Tripe don't have it for example and bit unsure to feed dog beet bulp especially when spending more money, even that website recommends against it. I have no idea what the colorants are in the Orlando which is for another reason want to change.

There's a thread on CSJ food here:
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/62762-csj-dog-food.html

Lots of positive reports and feedback (Hard to find any negatives anywhere apart from this thread about CSJ food)


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## toryb (Jul 11, 2011)

I would deffinatly choose skinners over either of those two!!


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

toryb said:


> I would deffinatly choose skinners over either of those two!!


But skinners has bad stuff in it also (Their other stuff) main concern with duck & rice is the beet bulp which is a known nasty especially for bigger dogs.

Skinners is actually similar to CSJ if you compare their prices and food ingredients. (Higher end CSJ specially) as you go higher up the better the ingredients.


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

I would agree with the majority and feed skinners. My little pup was on skinners and it was very good - only changed it as an adult dog stayed and Merlin decided he'd rather eat there's - so put them both on an all age food - Acana.

Skinners is a lot better than the two you have mentioned.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Jomox said:


> But skinners has bad stuff in it also (Their other stuff) main concern with duck & rice is the beet bulp which is a known nasty especially for bigger dogs.
> 
> Skinners is actually similar to CSJ if you compare their prices and food ingredients. (Higher end CSJ specially) as you go higher up the better the ingredients.


What's your huge worry with beet pulp?  feeding kibble is a bloat risk to big dogs as it is, a bit of beet pulp in the food won't make a scrap of difference, if that's your concern.

I'd much rather feed a food with a bit of beet pulp than packed with maize and wheat like the vast majority of CSJ - if you're set on them, go for their No Grainer, it's their only decent one. Cereal heavy kibbles swell massively in a dogs stomach, futher increasing the risk of bloat, so even more reason to go grain free.

Otherwise, I really would opt for Skinners duck - it's a head and shoulders above CSJ, even if it does contain beet pulp because it has no wheat or maize.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Regardless of any cancer worries, dogs can't digest grains, so I can't understand why you are so keen on foods that contain it. For a similar price, you can get far better food. I'm confused. I mean, I never knew how awful the food I gave was but you are obviously aware of the ingredients yet you still want to use it. Cereal is great for horses, not for dogs!


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm not sure why you're hung up on beet pulp either.

Taken from the dog food project site



> Beet Pulp, the isolated fibrous material from sugar beets, is another ingredient that has an undeservedly bad reputation. It is a very gentle, beneficial source of fiber that is not only generally very well tolerated, but also has specific properties that make it suitable as a source of nutrition for the beneficial bacteria that reside in the intestinal tract. The sugar is almost completely removed, what is left in the pulp is only about 1/5 the amount of sugar that you would find in a serving of carrots of equal size. It is also colorless and does not turn a dog's coat turn red, like urban legends claim. The argument that beet pulp is an "unnatural" ingredient is often brought up, but people who present this complaint seem to forget that it is also not natural for dogs to eat highly processed commercial products with a carb content of generally 40% and more, and a moisture content of only around 10% as opposed to a more natural 60-70%. Added fiber is required to make such formulations work for the pets who eat a dry diet.


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Okay thanks for the replies and information.

The reason for my negative vibes about beet pulp is, all the negative reports to put simple. Even this food review website says it's not a good filler and can cause problems, here look:



> Beet pulp is a controversial filler. It is a by-product, being dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. It is a controversial ingredient in dog food, claimed by some manufacturers to be a good source of fibre, and derided by others as an ingredient added to slow down the transition of rancid animal fats and causing stress to kidney and liver in the process. We note that beet pulp is an ingredient that commonly causes problems for dogs, including allergies and ear infections, and prefer not to see it used in dog food. There are less controversial products around if additional fibre is required.


Other reports say similar stuff and that it's a cause of gastric torsion in bigger dogs.

So what to believe when most say it's bad?



cinammontoast said:


> Regardless of any cancer worries, dogs can't digest grains, so I can't understand why you are so keen on foods that contain it. For a similar price, you can get far better food. I'm confused. I mean, I never knew how awful the food I gave was but you are obviously aware of the ingredients yet you still want to use it. Cereal is great for horses, not for dogs!


The CSJ Champ does not contain cereal or *wheat *gluten, though it does contain wheat some of the higher end stuff does not contain it, nor cereals.

Reason for thread is look for best food on a budget and I like the idea of skinners but still not sure about the beet pulp as there is conflicting information but most information say it's a bad filler, so it's confusing. (I know others contain it also which leaves me with problems deciding)

The negativity on this thread about CSJ is the first I've seen and even the other thread about CSJ on here is all positive feedback, so again more conflicting information which just confuses things even more.

I really appreciate the replies and feedback, I take everything on board but also have to look at everything and research it which is hard with so much conflicting information.


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## oveione (Aug 15, 2009)

Hi just like to say my two are on the champ and they are in good condition and health


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Okay, some say it's a bad filler, some say it's not. Everyone says maize and wheat are bad but you're preferring those over beet pulp.

You seem set on CSJ, I'm sure your dog will do just fine.


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Lyceum said:


> Okay, some say it's a bad filler, some say it's not. Everyone says maize and wheat are bad but you're preferring those over beet pulp.
> 
> You seem set on CSJ, I'm sure your dog will do just fine.


If anything I've been more tempted to go Skinners, but it will probably be between CSJ Complete Tripe and Skinners Duck & Rice. The Complete Tripe is wheat and cereal free, but does contain maize, while the Duck & Rice contains beet bulp.

I have to research this hard to know which to go for (One with Beet Pulp or one with maize)



oveione said:


> Hi just like to say my two are on the champ and they are in good condition and health


Thank you, good to know.


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

If you are looking at CSJ which has beet pulp in, and we have said Skinners is a lot better but also has beet pulp in...

Why are you unsure? Or are you leaning towards Orlando?


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

WhippetyAmey said:


> If you are looking at CSJ which has beet pulp in, and we have said Skinners is a lot better but also has beet pulp in...
> 
> Why are you unsure? Or are you leaning towards Orlando?


Please read my above post.

Thanks.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Jomox said:


> *The CSJ Champ does not contain cereal or wheat gluten, though it does contain wheat some of the higher end stuff does not contain it, nor cereals.*
> 
> The negativity on this thread about CSJ is the first I've seen and even the other thread about CSJ on here is all positive feedback, so again more conflicting information which just confuses things even more.
> 
> I really appreciate the replies and feedback, I take everything on board but also have to look at everything and research it which is hard with so much conflicting information.


I'm not sure what champ you're looking at, champ ingredients from the website



> *Wheat*, Beef & Lamb Meal, *Maize*, Chicken Fat, Chicken Liver, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Salt, Yucca Schidigera.


It has two types of cereal and beet pulp. I'm confused. It's a cereal based and a crappy one too, wheat is the first ingredient, it also has maize. So whoever told you it had no cereal needs to learn to read.

Have a look at a few CSJ threads, you'll find plenty of people saying the exact same thing as on here, too much fillers etc. There's been quite a few CSJ threads lately.

I've tried searching but CSJ searches come up blank, even though I know there's been plenty of threads lately.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Jomox said:


> If anything I've been more tempted to go Skinners, but it will probably be between CSJ Complete Tripe and Skinners Duck & Rice. *The Complete Tripe is wheat and cereal free, but does contain maize,* while the Duck & Rice contains beet bulp.
> 
> I have to research this hard to know which to go for (One with Beet Pulp or one with maize)
> 
> Thank you, good to know.


Maize is a cereal, a food with maize in is not cereal free. Maize, wheat, rice, oats, they are all cereals

Have you looked at autarky samon?



> Salmon (min 35%), rice (min33%), oats, chicken fat, yeast, full-fat linseed, alfalfa, prairie meal, peas, unmolassed beet pulp, dicalcium phosphate, mannanoligosaccharides, milkthistle,marigold,mnettle, seaweed, blackcurrantextract, carrot, yucca extract, thyme, beetroot, tomato, peppermint, fennel, paprika, turmeric, dandelion, ginger, fenugreek, roesmary extract, oregano and aloe vera(min 0.4% herbs, min 4% vegetables).


Whatever you feed I'm sure your dog will do fine.


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks for the information, was just doing research on Maize, did not know it was a Cereal. 

But as said in my previous post still learning towards Skinners just the information on beet pulp is conflicting some says its a myth about the problems then you got all the other reports saying how bad it is.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Honestly feed what you can afford. What works for one dog won't work for another. I fed Monty (RIP) CSJ champ and he loved it. 
Ok it may not be the best food out there but it is not the worst.


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## harrys_mum (Aug 18, 2010)

i feed my two csj champ and they love it, and have healthy do dos , and shiny coats, and i find the price brilliant.
michelle x


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

My dog has been on CSJ Hi-Lost since November 2010....it's all i can afford right now but Tummel has done really well on it, his coat is fantastic, his poo is always good and he loves the food.

In a while we can afford to change him to something better quality but he's very happy and healthy on CSJ, he's been on wainwrights which is better wuality but didn't suit him nearly as well as the Hi-Lost has.


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks for the replies and information appreciated.

Will go Skinners Duck & Rice in few months from the CSJ. 

But CSJ food as it seems is far from the worse food but it's not the best either something in-between and for those on a budget is perfect alternative to stuff like Wagg, Bakers etc, and it certainly don't deserve some of the negative feedback on this thread considering it's price and ingredients compared to stuff like Wagg etc.


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## Lyceum (Sep 25, 2009)

Jomox said:


> Thanks for the replies and information appreciated.
> 
> Will go Skinners Duck & Rice in few months from the CSJ.
> 
> But CSJ food as it seems is far from the worse food but it's not the best either something in-between and for those on a budget is perfect alternative to stuff like Wagg, Bakers etc, and it certainly don't deserve some of the negative feedback on this thread considering it's price and ingredients compared to stuff like Wagg etc.


Nobody said is was as bad as wagg etc.

People here will look at the ingredients and the price. Fact is skinners salmon/duck is better than most CSJ's in the same price bracket.

Lets face it, the majority of dogs are fed on crap commercial foods like bakers, they do absolutely fine and their owner would say it didn't deserve negative reviews.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

And worse still, they'd say 'My dog loves it' which means zero, because many dogs would love McDonalds for every meal, but you just wouldn't do it, would you?

I don't know if it's a case of misreading the forum, but many of us here have spent an awful long time researching the best possible diet for our dogs and I'd say the majority of us know that dogs don't need or benefit from a cereal content in their food. Cereal=cheap filler=unnecessary. 

I'd love to see some of the info about beet pulp, as although it is also a filler and unnecessary (IMO), I have never seen any of the info pertainting to it causing torsion.


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## spoeke (Nov 25, 2011)

my 5 month old german shorthaired pointer was fed a mix of csj hike on and raw meat by the breeder, so i stuck with it. but after about a month hattie got an eye infection, then an ear infection a few days later and always had lots of diarrhea. i therefore completely cut csj out of her diet and she's been doing amazingly ever since. i believe if you can somehow afford it a raw meat diet is the best you can do for your dog. i spend about 25 quid a month on hattie's food but i know exactly whats in her food (nothing but meat, bones and offal!) and that's worth it for me. i've heard of people being able to do the raw diet thing for a lot less money once you've built up a relationship to your local butcher or even abbatoir. maybe do some research on it and see if it could work for you. believe me your dog will love you for it!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Another convert, fab! I spend about £45 on my three springers a month on raw food. Order in bulk, buy a massive freezer, sorted! 

Can we have a picture of the pointer? I adore that breed.


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## spoeke (Nov 25, 2011)

Yesss definitely! I'll try to post a few... she's a little poser and just seems to love having her picture taken!


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

cinammontoast said:


> And worse still, they'd say 'My dog loves it' which means zero, because many dogs would love McDonalds for every meal, but you just wouldn't do it, would you?
> 
> I don't know if it's a case of misreading the forum, but many of us here have spent an awful long time researching the best possible diet for our dogs and I'd say the majority of us know that dogs don't need or benefit from a cereal content in their food. Cereal=cheap filler=unnecessary.
> 
> I'd love to see some of the info about beet pulp, as although it is also a filler and unnecessary (IMO), I have never seen any of the info pertainting to it causing torsion.


I think its good to read the negative stuff about beet pulp, it's okay only reading positives but if you miss out the negatives you could be feeding your dog something you don't know and cause serious problems due to only reading the positives, it seems some have not read the negatives about beet pulp. If you do with the below links then I am sure you will re-consider feeding it your dog especially if he's a bigger dog. (It's quite known that beet pulp can cause gas in the stomach especially to vets etc)

Of course the below links can be conflicted with others but some of these links are from reliable sources.

Links : (not particular order)

Long read but good info



> Avoid feeding food that are known to cause flatulence (gas), e.g. soy, beans, peas, onions, beet pulp, etc.


Another



> Beet pulp, added as a filler is another cause of bloat as is Soya. Beet pulp slows down digestion and allows fermentation to take place, and may also cause dietary intolerance.





> Stool hardeners added to commercial foods, such as beet pulp, sodium bentonate, or cellulose flour, could compound the risk of bloat caused by saponins because they slow the passage of food and fibre through the large intestine.


Health Issues: Gastric Torsion - Karlsruhe German Shepherd Dogs

Another (v3)

Another (V4)

More

Just a forum debate but still some interesting posts

There's loads more links all round the net from reliable sources. I just think some need some understanding of Bloat and Torsion and what to do to prevent it. One of my dogs nearly died of Torsion before and the vet mentioned not feeding food with filler or beet pulp in, and many dogs die every year of Gastric Torsion especially in bigger dogs.

Ninja Edit:

Of course I understand reports are conflicting and it's hard to know what to beleive considering there is good evidence either side but when vets and other reliable sources point to stuff like beet bulp as a cause of gas in the stomach then you have to take notice.



spoeke said:


> my 5 month old german shorthaired pointer was fed a mix of csj hike on and raw meat by the breeder, so i stuck with it. but after about a month hattie got an eye infection, then an ear infection a few days later and always had lots of diarrhea. i therefore completely cut csj out of her diet and she's been doing amazingly ever since. i believe if you can somehow afford it a raw meat diet is the best you can do for your dog. i spend about 25 quid a month on hattie's food but i know exactly whats in her food (nothing but meat, bones and offal!) and that's worth it for me. i've heard of people being able to do the raw diet thing for a lot less money once you've built up a relationship to your local butcher or even abbatoir. maybe do some research on it and see if it could work for you. believe me your dog will love you for it!


This is why I said in one of my past posts it all depends what will suit your dog, some dogs do well on some food others don't, for example most reports of dogs on CSJ have very good stools and no problems, but others may have problems such as like your dog did, But feeding raw is a defo way to go.

Your dog looks lovely & happy btw.

Also appreciate everyones responses, it's good we are all passion about what we feed our dogs even if we do disagree with stuff we all mean well.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

spoeke said:


> Yesss definitely! I'll try to post a few... she's a little poser and just seems to love having her picture taken!


When's she going to grow into those ears?! Lovely picture with the bluebells!

Jomox, thanks for the links. I wouldn't feed it as I feed raw and I'm very fussy about what my boys have, but love to get new info.


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## TabithaJ (Apr 18, 2010)

Have you considered a reasonably priced wet food...?


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## Jomox (Sep 4, 2010)

cinammontoast said:


> Jomox, thanks for the links. I wouldn't feed it as I feed raw and I'm very fussy about what my boys have, but love to get new info.


Yeah sorry if post was a bit much not against you or anything like that, just spreading info.

Thanks for all the replies.


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## stiglets (Dec 15, 2012)

Ok thanks for reply.
My head is spinning!

I still can't decide between skinners duck and rice and csj complete tripe.
Both about £20 but skinners has beet pulp?

Can now get simpsons cheaper (£33 for 15kg) but his poo is still quite soft on this


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## GoldenRetrieverman (Sep 7, 2012)

stiglets said:


> Ok thanks for reply.
> My head is spinning!
> 
> I still can't decide between skinners duck and rice and csj complete tripe.
> ...


Id go Skinners. Their suppliers dont use artificial preservatives. I dont think CSJ can guarntee their suppliers dont which is unacceptable to me. Skinners is £21 on amazon. Beet pulp is added to food for fibre.


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## Renata (Mar 18, 2013)

Term "filler" is meaningless. Fillers are presumed to provide no nutritional value to the food. All ingredients contribute nutrients to the food. The ingredients that are included in dog food are all contributing one or more nutrients.

Beet pulp: source of fermentable fibre, that is important for intestinal health

Maize: digestible carbohydrate, provides protein, fat (linoleic acid)

Wheat: digestible carbohydrate, some people avoid dog foods containing wheat because dogs can develop allergies. Allergies to wheat are less common than allergies to beef, dairy product and soy.

I would go for CSJ Champ and when your budget allowes it, try to find food with higher protein content.


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