# Dartmoor pony meat goes on sale in Devon



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-12-07/dartmoor-pony-meat-goes-on-sale-in-devon/

" 
Meat from Dartmoor Hill ponies has gone on sale in a bid to save the animals from extinction.

For the first time, pony meat is being turned into sausages and steaks and are now on sale at farmers' markets in Devon, online and in restaurants.

The Dartmoor Hill Pony website says the plan is in line with recommendations from conservation groups to ensure the correct number of ponies are kept on the moor, and encourage farmers to conserve them."

*I have just seen this story, and to be honest i don't like it.*
*Ok i'm a meat eater but the thought of eating a pony doesn't feel right to me. Probably has something to do with horses being my favourite animal.*
*Thoughts anyone?*


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

We are in Dartmoor at the moment for a long weekend, if we do eat out (rare) then we tend to stick to veggie options anyway as we are both fussy about where out meat comes from and it not having any fat on it and being cooked well. I love seeing the Dartmoor Ponies when we are here but know there are problems and that some of the foals end up being shot because there is no demand for them. I don't quite understand why they don't just limit the breeding - a few less stallions or contraceptive implants if they exist for horses.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Oh it's awful it has to come to this 
But surely there is another way???

I eat meat, but won't be eating ponies


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *Ok i'm a meat eater but the thought of eating a pony doesn't feel right to me. Probably has something to do with horses being my favourite animal.*


Think you've hit the nail on the head. If you eat meat (I do) can you really complain about the type of meat others eat? Do we rank and classify eatable meat according to cuteness factor? Poor slaughter practices across the spectrum should cause more condemnation and disgust yet doesn't.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Goblin said:


> Think you've hit the nail on the head. If you eat meat (I do) can you really complain about the type of meat others eat? Do we rank and classify eatable meat according to cuteness factor? Poor slaughter practices across the spectrum should cause more condemnation and disgust yet doesn't.


*Oh don't get me wrong, providing the animals are killed properly i don't have a problem with what people eat. It's just not for me.*


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Part of me also prefers to see any animal which "has to be killed" is not simply wasted. I do not see any difference between pony and say wild boar. Would not go out of my way to eat it but if offered I wouldn't avoid it.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I can eat (providing they are slaughtered humanely) animals that are largely bred for meat. Cows, sheep, pigs, chickens. 
I believe humans are built to eat meat and that is the food chain. 

But, I cannot eat a pony that I have grown up seeing in a different way. We used to go to Dartmoor and Exmoor a lot and I always looked forward to seeing the ponies, I'm not gonna turn around and eat them. 
Just my personal view.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Poor slaughter practices across the spectrum should cause more condemnation and disgust yet doesn't.


I completely agree.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Goblin said:


> Part of me also prefers to see any animal which "has to be killed" is not simply wasted. I do not see any difference between pony and say wild boar. Would not go out of my way to eat it but if offered I wouldn't avoid it.


see Wild Boar and things like that don't sit right with me either. All this new stuff 'Ostrich Burgers' 'Kangaroo Steak' no thanks.


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## ClaireLouise (Oct 11, 2009)

Ethically I cant see the problem
Personally I couldn't eat pony/horse meat, it's not for me.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I eat very little meat. Chicken, cos they're ugly, fish cos they're ugly too and I find I can eat them because it's difficult for me to form any kind of affectionate relationship with the creatures. 

Expecting me to eat a horse or pony is much the same as expecting me to eat Zara or Oscar.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I genuinely don't see the difference between eating a cow, a pony or a dog. I have no problem with people eating meat of any kind as long as it has been slaughtered as humanely as possible and if they have to be killed, I would rather they made it into the food chain than killed and just disposed of.
I don't eat meat at all so it's easy for me to be on my high horse (pun intended) about it :Smuggrin


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

janice199,@Muttly (or anyone else for that matter ) where do you stand with eating Reindeer ?


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't see it as an issue as long as the animal is humanely killed.
I just wouldn't want to eat horse meat.. would be like I'm eating my horse!

I only really eat Chicken and fish.


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## quagga (Jun 11, 2014)

Dartmoor hill ponies are very low value and many are shot or shipped to France for slaughter. TBH I don't see why stallions are allowed out - in the New Forest there were issues with ponies selling for v. low prices and to slaughter so now (selected) stallions are only let out for a month. Now we have fewer foals of better quality. Gelding ponies is not hard!

Having said that I'd rather the ponies were killed in Dartmoor and sold for meat than have a long horrible journey to France prior to their death.

I'm a vegetarian so I won't be eating any


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Mr Gizmo said:


> janice199,@Muttly (or anyone else for that matter ) where do you stand with eating Reindeer ?


I don't eat Reindeer and I don't eat Moose. At certain times of the year, both of these animals are hunted in Finland.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Mr Gizmo said:


> janice199,@Muttly (or anyone else for that matter ) where do you stand with eating Reindeer ?


*Not something i'd want to try. But each to their own.... Just don't tell the kids. lol *


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I only eat chicken and sometimes fish. At the small holdings where I kept my cob , they had sheep , chickens and one had cows. One orphaned calf was kept as pet and the grandchildren use to sit on her back and walk around the farm on her. orphaned lambs also kept as pets sometimes. 
What worries me is halal meat , this is used in school dinners in some areas and school children have no choice. 
Despite a petition calling for it , meat doesn't have to be labelled halal .


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I dont think Id have a problem eating a pony TBH. Esp not if it was a free range one from Dartmoor and farming them meant they wouldnt die out. I dont think ponies are any more cute or intelligent then pigs or cows and we eat them so...... *shrugs*
Although I really only eat meat about once or twice a month and next year Im thinking of going meat free except for xmas. Animals are tasty but there are enough veggie alternatives that you dont need to eat them!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Healthwise, eating a running mostly wild ( apart from annual roundup) pony shouldn't be different to eating wild venison. Both are vegetarian, both have a wild life, neither have natural predators in the UK, so when they get old culling is the better option to getting weaker and thinner, and eventually slipping and breaking a leg, or starving as teeth or digestion fail. Keeping stabled in old age after a lifetime on the hills would be cruel to an animal not used to being handled, and any regular medication requirements would be difficult to administer. I'm talking about the truely wild ones, not the ones used to mugging tourists for sandwiches. They are branded or otherwise marked, so friendly ones need not be killed.
Morally, or emotionally, I'd rather they were killed here in the UK than shipped abroad. Other countries have much lower standards of animal welfare to us,,even discounting the long lorry journey.
The issue of not eating "pet" animals crops up with normal farm livestock species here on the farm. Our rule here is that if it has a name and trusts us it is a pet, if it isn't "special" it can be eaten. This is essential with young children, who need to know what they can risk loving and what they can enjoy looking after, but will eventually be eaten. Their own pigs are pets, their piglets can be sold to other smallholder farmers or raised on for meat. We had a lovely teenage boar this year,,who my daughter got fond of, but as we already had 2 adult boars it was explained that if he wasn't chosen for breeding then he would go for meat at the same time as the others. Daughter herself put it wonderfully when he came back as pork: " He tastes lovely because he was happy, and it wouldn't be nice to let him fight with his dad and get killed and wasted."
Would I eat French horsemeat in a restaurant? No way.
Would I eat my own pet horse ( even if I hadn't signed not for human consumption on her medical records second receive certain medicines), again, no way, would be buried in a pet cemetary and given a proper send-off by the family
Would I eat locally killed wild pony, culled to keep the herd healthy or for individual welfare reasons? I'd give it a try, and probably enjoy it. 
To me, as a farmer, animal welfare is about looking after your livestock to the best if your ability, and giving a quick, stress and pain free death. Death comes to us all, what matters is our lives. A wild pony culled and eaten may have a better life, and death, than a once loved lead rein pony handed from home to home as it becomes outgrown, finally ending it's days hobbling with laminitis in a rarely visited paddock.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Mr Gizmo said:


> janice199,@Muttly (or anyone else for that matter ) where do you stand with eating Reindeer ?


Nope. I've never even tried Venison.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

It's how the individual 'sees' that animal. I see certain animals for food, as that is really what they are bred in the millions for. There is enough choice with the basics, that In my view, it's not neccessary to kill all the other animals on the planet for too.

I see ponies/horses as pets as I was raised around horses. Same with dogs and cats. If I was raised in China, perhaps my view would be different (or I may even be a veggie, the disgusting ways they kill the dogs  )

It's nothing to do with being 'cute' I think calfs and lambs etc are cute. But I don't interact with them daily and have them in my home.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Muttly said:


> Nope. I've never even tried Venison.


You should try it. If you've never had wild game the closest would be beef. Cook like braising steak, long and slow.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

When I was on holiday in Italy I bought a packet of meat in the supermarket and we made a tasty dinner out of it. I remarked to my other half that the pork chops tasted different here to those at home and then, after looking at the packaging more detail with the help of Google, discovered we had in fact been eating horse. I have to confess it was very tasty, low fat and a cross in taste between pork and beef.

Growing up my position was I didn't eat animals I have kept as pets (fish were ok but not goldfish - ok that made sense as a kid !!). As a keen rider, horses were on the exclusion list as well as cats dogs and gerbils. Never having owned rabbits they were ok to my child's point of view. But chickens were ok to eat because we kept them for eggs and meat not as pets ( except henpecked the theatrical acting chicken)

As an adult I agree with Nettles. If it has a name and I have grown to know it's character then I cannot eat it. However I don't have difficulty eating species that don't regularly inhabit the supermarket shelves like boar, kangaroo, venison and horses would also now be in this catagory. For me it is important that if an animal is killed then we owe it to use every part of that animal and not discard or waste it. So if ponies are being killed ( in the same way deer or wild boar are killed) to manage numbers then in my view it is better that they are used by being eaten than being incinerated or buried or similar. In fact to honour and respect the life of that animal better that it is appreciated as a dish enjoyed than minced up or ground up for pet food or fertiliser IMO.

I would also rather that such animals were slaughtered humanely close to where they have lived rather endure a trip to Europe to then be killed in a foreign abbatoir.

If ponies didn't need to be culled in the first place that would be better but if so then eating them in the UK is a far better option than shipping them abroad imo.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

I signed a questionaire, on Facebook, asking if people could eat pony/horse meat . My answer personally to me, was, *no way.*
Horses have always been special to us Brits, they are a big part of our history, industry etc.
We have never been a nation of horse meat eaters.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
If numbers are a problem, then gelding some colts makes far-more sense.
.
However, *contraceptive implants *have caused massive problems in feral
horses, in western states of the USA.
.
Mares under natural breeding come into estrus just once a year, timed so
that foals are weaning onto lush young pastures. All the mares come into
estrus over a few weeks' time; stud-fights are seasonal events, by & large.
When foals are being born, things are pretty quiet.
.
Mares under contraceptive implants come into estrus erratically, & are bred
at bizarre times of the year; newborns drop into February snow, or foals
are weaned onto shriveled, sere-brown forage & coarse brush, in autumn.
Stallions are exhausted, trying to defend a few mares in estrus at any time
of the year, & foals are killed when they're trampled or injured during fights,
or separated from their dams in sudden flights across country.
A foal with a leg injury is walking dead.
.
The contraceptives have been an unmitigated disaster for the feral herds.
Year-round poorer condition for studs, who defend their mares not just
from roaming underage bachelor bands, but predators as well; intense
nutritional stress for dams carrying foals out of season, on poor forage;
& foals doomed to starvation born out of season, or a faster, less-painful
death from hypothermia.
.
The number of orphans lost from their families has soared. Year-round
individual "seasons" for mares means year-round fights between studs.
Running fights over miles of rough terrain means minor or major injuries for
anyone, of any age, who makes a misstep.
Add to that the frequent harassment of helicopters pushing them around, &
the fact that feral herds are already on marginal land with seasonal grazing,
not year-round grass, & they are living a life of high stress, high mortality, &
frequent trauma - physical & mental.
.
re the Dartmoor ponies:
There's no reason they couldn't reduce the # of studs, confine studs season-
ally or in rotation to areas separate from the mare bands, & reduce their foal
crop without slaughtering a single animal.
When all the mares come into estrus over no more than a month, it's pretty
simple to prevent over 90% of pregnancies.
.
If they really "want" to sell pony meat, culling aged animals is also simple.
.
Branding or marking for yr-of-birth is an easy step - freeze branding a code
that includes yr, dam, & band is also a good way of tracking better quality
foals or thriftier animals or better genetics or temperament.
If they limit breeding to fenced paddocks, a sire can be coded on their foals,
too.
.
.
.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I actually feel very strongly about lobsters and crabs.

I believe that we have no right whatsoever to cause any creature, however small, unnecessary suffering and I can't believe that we're so short of options for something to eat that we have to boil living, feeling creatures alive.

I own a horse. I might, in some circumstances, eat horse, but I would never touch lobster or crab.


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Sweety said:


> I actually feel very strongly about lobsters and crabs.
> 
> I believe that we have no right whatsoever to cause any creature, however small, unnecessary suffering and I can't believe that we're so short of options for something to eat that we have to boil living, feeling creatures alive.
> 
> I own a horse. I might, in some circumstances, eat horse, but I would never touch lobster or crab.


Nowadays , they usually pop lobsters in the freezer , much more humane than a boiling pot


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

They will have had a far better life than many farm animals and as well as humane deaths, the way they've lead their lives is just as important


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Muttly said:


> Nope. I've never even tried Venison.


You should it's one of the best meats as far as I'm concerned.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

tincan said:


> Nowadays , they usually pop lobsters in the freezer , much more humane than a boiling pot


Is it?

I certainly wouldn't want to freeze to death.

If a Slaughterhouse were freezing or boiling cows to death, I'm sure there would be a public outcry.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rona said:


> They will have had a far better life than many farm animals and as well as humane deaths, the way they've lead their lives is just as important


Lobsters and crabs do lead a good life .......... until humans get their hands on them.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sweety said:


> Lobsters and crabs do lead a good life .......... until humans get their hands on them.


As I said the death method is also important


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rona said:


> As I said the death method is also important


Agreed.


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I really don't get why people who eat meat have an issue eating certain animals over others, I am vegan but if I did eat meat then I would pretty much eat all meat so long as I liked the taste of it, so imo a horse or a cow being used for food is no different.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

redroses2106 said:


> I really don't get why people who eat meat have an issue eating certain animals over others, I am vegan but if I did eat meat then I would pretty much eat all meat so long as I liked the taste of it, so imo a horse or a cow being used for food is no different.


This. ^^^^^

At the end of the day, whatever meat you have on your plate, see in packages in the supermarket, in your local butchers it's an animal, be it a pretty animal or not. It lived, it breathed and it died. You can't compare that.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Of course the attitude would change fast it the alternative was starvation i assume? eat the pony or die?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

id much rather see them killed and eaten here than shipped to Europe. Don't have an issue with it so long as I doesn't become some odd intensively farmed " delicacy". I don't have an issue with eating deer either.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> .
> .
> If numbers are a problem, then gelding some colts makes far-more sense.
> .
> ...


As there is no longer a thank you button I gave you a like but wanted to say thanks for the informative post. If many of the stallions were gelded in the feral herds you mentioned how would that affect the herd dynamics and individual behaviours ? In my experience geldings and mares get on well in domestic settings but I don't come across too many stallions. The only ones I have in a domestic setting are usually kept well separated eg Newmarket stud.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, kittih:
...
If many of the stallions were gelded in the feral herds you mentioned, how would that affect herd
dynamics and individual behaviours ?

IME geldings and mares get on well in domestic settings but I don't come across too many stallions.
The only [stallions I know of] in a domestic setting are usually kept well separated, eg, Newmarket
stud.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.
.
The Federal Bureau of Land Mgmt has jurisdiction over the feral horses, & the BLM
has never attempted to selectively geld colts - or for that matter, studs that are poor
specimens. So no-one really knows just how - or if - this would significantly alter herd
society.
Most wild stallions don't get to breed before age 4 minimum, & often age 5 or 6, as
older, heavier studs have more wt & muscle than young upstarts, plus fighting prac-
tice. Sometime between 18-mos & 2-yrs, colts leave their natal bands & join bachelor
groups; they may be driven out by their sire, or by the mares, but they're encouraged
to leave. This helps limit inbreeding in healthy popns.
The teenaged-&-up colts & young stallions travel together & often form lifelong bonds -
some will become allies & unite to steal a band from a solo stallion, & one desert band
has developed a new social structure with 1 primary sire & several junior studs who help
protect the mares & foals, but don't breed.
More eyeballs means better foal survival & recruitment.
.
.
As geldings have no interest in taking over a mare band, they would not represent a
threat to studs - i have a feeling they'd be welcome, as more adults to watch for threats
means more safety for the herd as a group, without the tension of "extra" stallions.
.
Aside from the implants, injected into mares' muscle by airguns IIRC, they take a
"nature takes its course", hands-off approach to illness, injury, drought, starva-
tion, predation, etc.
Since they are often the direct or indirect CAUSE of illness, injury, starvation, etc,
by harassing horses off decent grazing & onto rough browse, or by chasing herds
with 'copters, their sudden attack of compunction about "interfering with Nature" when
it comes to gelding surplus colts strikes many ppl as self-serving & disingenuous.
They have absolutely no qualms about "interfering" by chasing horses to exhaustion,
or denying horse bands access to water when rainfall is short, so that cattle can hog
it all.
.
It's a very contentious issue, as ranchers who graze their cattle on Federal land are
bitterly opposed to one horse, let alone feral herds, eating "THEIR" grass.
Personally, i think the grazing fees are a joke; Federal fees are often a mere 1/3 that
of adjacent private land fees, & as a direct result, Fed lands are often horrendously
overgrazed.
.
The damage done to lands, flora, other fauna, & streambanks by grazed cattle is
enormous - millions of acres eroded, hundreds of miles of streams silted, fish kills
& invertebrates practically exterminated, wildflowers & other native plants pushed
to the brink of extinction, other grazing & browsing wildlife pushed out to marginal
areas where cattle can't go.
Cattle are notorious for loafing on stream banks, stripping them of anything remote-
ly edible, & causing banks to collapse - floods, erosion, silting, turbidity, etc.
Horses - especially feral horses - keep moving.
.
Even native predators are killed because they MIGHT - not "have" but COULD -
kill cattle. The so-called "Wildlife Services" Dept of the Federal govt kills literally
thousands of animals every year, often based on fears rather than actual depre-
dations. Millions of fox, coyote, wolves, prairie dogs, & other native species have
been killed using my taxpayer dollars, & often in incredibly cruel ways.
The exploding strychnine baits are a particular horror.
Poison-laced carcasses have killed not "just" coyote, but eagles, ravens, crows,
skunks, raccoons, & other non-target species. Even carrion beetles have died.
.
If it were up to me, i'd boot every cattle lease off Federal lands & force them to
use private land - then i'd reintroduce bison to the prairie. Bison migrate - they
don't hang out in one spot. And they cohabit just fine with prairie dogs, wolves,
cougar, trout, native flowers, beaver, & so on.
.
As for wild horses, the feral herds have been mismanaged for decades by the
BLM. Living in pipe-corrals on concrete for years on end, in full sun, is not a life.
.
The BLM is nothing more than an enforcement arm for powerful ranching, hunt-
ing, & antipredator interests.
.
.
.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

I have been following Ginger Kathrens story about Cloud & the Pryor horses for years & get updates on the wild horses. I would love to do more but can't living here in Britain. I do have the DVD's of Clouds life though. I know what the BLM in America are doing & Ginger is trying to make a difference with her helpers. Though that problem is on a much larger scale than the Dartmoor pony problem here. Here all ponies are owned by private people not by the general public as in America & America having such a large country can have wild horse herds, if the BLM would let the horses be that is. It's a far greater problem for the horses there than it is here. We have no cattle barons.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

Thank you @leashedForLife that's very interesting . I am aware of wild horse herd dynamics from what I have read and watched but it is good to get a view on how altering dynamics such as gelding might affect things. I can imagine that geldings as you say would be viewed beneficially or at least neuteally by other members including the stallions.

I was unaware of the extent of the difficulties and faced by the feral horses and the issues relating to the cattle industry in the states. It rather reminds me of the conflicts that happen in places like Africa between wildlife needs and those of cattle and other livestock farmers.

In my local patch in the Cambridgeshire Fens they are using ponies and cattle to maintain the fenland, preventing scrubland from developing and allowing fenlsnd plants and animals to flourish. The cattle and ponies are managed but are essentially feral and allowed to roam as they please within the conservation area. The project has only Vern going for a short while so it will be interesting to see how that goes. They use Konik ponies.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cambridgeshire/4555365.stm


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

I have heard about & seen on TV the Konik ponies, Kittih. They are very hardy & they do a good job.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

I am a horse person through and through, and have spent my life with them.
I still don’t understand how a horse should get more consideration than a cow or a deer or a lobster.

It’s just odd to me that we humans don’t tend to recognize how random our decisions are about what meats are okay and which ones aren’t.
What makes a cow okay to eat but a horse not? Cows plow our fields, fertilize our pastures, provide us with milk, (and dairy breeds can be incredibly sweet natured and certainly much easier to handle than some ponies I have dealt with! ).

When I was a kid, it was time spent around different farm animals that was largely responsible for me becoming a vegetarian. 
These days we are are far too disconnected from the source of our food and that’s not good. 
When your meat comes from the family farm animals that you helped raise, you’re going to look at it far differently than the sterile cellophane wrapped stuff with no connection to the animal that it came from. 

I do think humans were meant to eat meat just not the obscene amounts of meat we do in the typical western diet. You don’t need meat 3 times a day every day of the year. Meat used to be a luxury in the human diet, a few times a year thing, not an every day thing.


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## Apollo2012 (Jun 10, 2013)

redroses2106 said:


> I really don't get why people who eat meat have an issue eating certain animals over others, I am vegan but if I did eat meat then I would pretty much eat all meat so long as I liked the taste of it, so imo a horse or a cow being used for food is no different.


As a meat eater the way I see it is I only feel comfortable eating animals that I would be willing to kill for food myself if I had to. I wouldn't be comfortable killing a horse, duck, rabbit, cat or dog for food therefore I don't eat them.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm somewhere between wanting to turn vegetarian cos i know how damaging it is for the planet and wanting to try every different type of meat just to see what it tastes like cos you only live once...


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If there is a surplus of Dartmoor ponies, then reducing the breeding would be preferable. As it is, it seems pretty arbitrary (same with Newforest and possiby others) and stallions run with the herd, and breed indiscriminantly. Then the surplus need to be disposed of.

Surely, better to manage the breeding and numbers so there is no need for culling.

There isn't a shortage of meat in this country so we don't need to look to new species IMO.

What also needs to stop is the transportation of* any* live animal for slaughter.

All animals intended for slaughter should be killed as close to the place of production as possible and most definitely within the UK to ensure the highest welfare levels.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I don't think that eating animals is the answer to the overpopulation of animals. And who are we to decide what makes animals useful when humans can be so rubbish?

I suppose I am veggie. I didn't really eat it much anyway and ethics and welfare have stopped me. I've always used a butcher who was very sure of provenance but I still wasn't ever sure having been a veggie for many years before I met my meat eating OH. I don't eat fish. I've never got the concept of 'demi-veggie' or whatever it's called, or anyone who won't kill something because it has a prettier face than another.


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## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Dartmoor is not managed like the New Forest. The forest for example is actually split up in areas. Owners know what stallions are running where etc. And you need a permit to graze the horses actually have owners. Not the case in dartmoor.

When I had some involvement in Dartmoor ponies (years ago) the bottom line is its all very hard to manage. 

Many ponies are interbred or compete mongrols ( not even dartmoor breeding) Its common land anyone can put ponies out with no trace on owners. Sounds awful but large amounts of stock need to be culled to get the control demonstrated in the new forest. Problem for years and no one is interested. Dartmoor can't be split like the new forest. 

All very well saying geld, but who will pay £150 a colt to geld and who will give care after to make sure healthy and infection free. 

Hopefully the use of meat is the first step forward in some management out there.


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## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

Physically I am not sure I could eat it. Weird because I have some form of relationship with the cows and goats here at home, and eat them.

I would however comfortably feed to my dogs.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Couldn't eat horse meat. 

The breed is up a creek, there are coloured horses in the herd from stallions that have been dumped. They're far from pure bred now. A serious cull would benefit the breed. I suppose the meat would be exported and bought on the continent. I just hope they transport the meat, not the animal.


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## Vanessa131 (Nov 16, 2014)

If we are realistic the options are an uncontrolled population which would lead to some animals starving eventually, preventing breeding, shooting them or eating them. 

Shooting and eating are the most realistic, but lets face it if we kill them we might as well eat them, or at least use them for pet food etc. 

The only animals I wouldn't eat are primates and those cooked alive.


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

cinnamontoast said:


> Couldn't eat horse meat.
> 
> The breed is up a creek, there are coloured horses in the herd from stallions that have been dumped. They're far from pure bred now. A serious cull would benefit the breed. I suppose the meat would be exported and bought on the continent. I just hope they transport the meat, not the animal.


The breed of Dartmoor Hill ponies was changed many years ago, with the introduction of shetland type stallions to produce a smaller pony to work in the pits, then pit ponies were no longer needed but the ponies were already changed. These are not the pure Dartmoor ponies, these are different, very few pure Dartmoors are loose on the moor now.


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## Rosie64 (Feb 27, 2014)

To me meat is meat it all comes from an animal of one kind or another and as long as it is killed humanely I really don't see the difference


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Apollo2012:

As a meat eater... I only feel comfortable eating animals that I'd be willing to kill for food, myself....
I wouldn't be comfortable killing a horse, duck, rabbit, cat or dog for food; therefore, I don't eat them.
.
.
Makes sense to me.
.
Back when i hunted & fished, on our family farm, i often met folks who were
*horrified* at the mere thought of killing any mammal, let alone the act. Appar-
rently, it's OK to eat a chicken - or a turkey, pig, fish, etc - AFTER s/he's been
killed, skinned, scaled, or plucked, & butchered into convenient parcels, then
wrapped so they don't leak blood on anything, & sold.
.
For some reason, killing animals wholesale, hundreds per hour is OK, often
under very cruel conditions, but killing ONE animal as humanely & quickly as
possible, is not.
.
FWIW, i can slaughter an animal quickly & with minimal fright or pain to that
animal. I can also prepare them for eating - gut, remove glands that will spoil
the meat, scale a fish & fillet, break down a deer's carcass, butcher a lamb.
Is it fun? - No. Should it be? - No.
Should it be done quickly & cleanly? --- Dam*ed right it should.
.
Many of these holier-than-thou folks were female - but not all. _"Oh, I could_
*never*_ kill a _*______!", *they would flute, looking shocked. Well, if U can't kill
whatever it is, then - IMO - U definitely shouldn't eat that species.
.
Otherwise, U put the karma of killing on someone else, whilst enjoying the
benefits of that death - despite Ur supposed moral, ethical, emotional, or
spiritual qualms.
.
It's a lot like a pimp who's perfectly willing to sell someone else's body for
use by others, & is perfectly happy to take the profits from that, but who'd
never DREAM of having sex with strangers for money...
Let someone else take the risks, take the pain or discomfort or disgust or 
sheer bl**dy boredom, but the pimp keeps their hands - & body - clean, &
just takes the MONEY.
.
In the case of holier-than-thou meat eaters, they take the carcass - but not
the killing. They're "too good" for that.
.
.
.


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## SpotOn (May 7, 2013)

Not for me.

But I have little issue if people want to eat it. I have happily enjoyed beef, pork, chicken, reindeer (one of my favs), ostrich and kangaroo... I have probably unknowingly eaten horse, but as a consumer I'd like to make my own decision as to the meat I eat. These days health means I can't really eat meat anyway. As many have stated I'd rather animals be eaten over here than to be shipped over to Europe.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Makes sense to me.
> .
> Back when i hunted & fished, on our family farm, i often met folks who were
> *horrified* at the mere thought of killing any mammal, let alone the act. Appar-
> ...


I really don't agree that people who eat meat, but don't kill it themselves can be compared to pimps 

But I do agree with the rest of what you've said. Part of the reason I choose not to eat meat is because I don't think you should eat an animal you wouldn't be prepared to kill yourself. It just doesn't feel right to me to eat it, but not do the dirty work. I have no problem with others who feel comfortable doing that though.
I eat fish, mainly because I don't like a lot of vegetables and nutritionally, I needed to compromise with some part of my diet so I started to eat fish again. I would be prepared to kill and gut a fish and have done in the past. It wasn't something I enjoyed doing at all, but I did it, and would do it again if needs be.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Nettles said:


> I really don't agree that people who eat meat, but don't kill it themselves can be compared to pimps


So you really want to encourage slaughtering animals by people who don't have a clue?

Maybe every grain and vegetable you eat should be self grown.. no difference


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So you really want to encourage slaughtering animals by people who don't have a clue?
> 
> Maybe every grain and vegetable you eat should be self grown.. no difference


Either you've entirely misread my post.. or you've quoted the wrong person because that's not what I've said in the slightest.


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Either you've entirely misread my post.. or you've quoted the wrong person because that's not what I've said in the slightest.


My apologies, you are correct. I did misread.

However the idea of shouldn't eat meat if not prepared to kill it yourself it fraught with issues.

The idea raised elsewhere by others comparing meat eaters with pimps is stupid as letting others do things is one of the basics of society.

I do think old style butchers are better than supermarket plastic packaging though at bringing kids closer to what meat actually is. The old style butchers with heads, possibly chickens or rabbits whatever on hooks used to at least show kids something about what they were dealing with.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> My apologies, you are correct. I did misread.
> 
> However the idea of shouldn't eat meat if not prepared to kill it yourself it fraught with issues


I think you may also have misread this part of my post too as that isn't what I said either.

Im saying part of the reason *I* choose not to eat meat is because it doesn't feel right for me to eat something I would never be prepared to kill myself. That is a personal choice for me and a part of why I personally choose not to eat meat.
I also said I have no problem with others who feel comfortable to eat meat that they wouldn't be prepared to kill themselves.
That certainly doesn't mean I'm suggesting people go out and kill their food themselves.

Yes I would have agreed totally that supermarket meat in fancy packaging is a little too detached from "the real thing" and think good old butcher style is best.. but the more I think about it, milk, or any dairy product for that matter is also very detached from "the real thing" but yet for some reason that doesn't bother me and I don't really know why tbh. I know I certainly couldn't drink milk if it was presented to me in an udder lol.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2015)

Nettles said:


> I know I certainly couldn't drink milk if it was presented to me in an udder lol.


Wait, you never crouched under a cow as a kid and had it squirted directly in to your mouth? 
Sweet (literally) memories


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Wait, you never crouched under a cow as a kid and had it squirted directly in to your mouth?
> Sweet (literally) memories


We've lived very different lives @ouesi lol. The closest I got to a cow as a kid was at an open farm where I spent the entire time gagging at the smell of a cow pat.

I did make friends with a cow on holiday in Co. Kerry last year. I fed her grass every morning and she followed me round the perimeter of the field mooing at me while I told her how pretty she was. I felt like David Attenborough


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, Apollo2012:
> 
> As a meat eater... I only feel comfortable eating animals that I'd be willing to kill for food, myself....
> I wouldn't be comfortable killing a horse, duck, rabbit, cat or dog for food; therefore, I don't eat them.
> ...


Perfectly put. For Christmas we will have our own goose. Currently wandering in happy ignorance completely free range. Will be sleeping happily in back of grain store one night ( put themselves to bed when dark.) Will be picked up and dispatched quickly, painlessly and without stress. Hang for a few days and then plucked cooked and enjoyed. People who happily buy turkeys and geese from the supermarket are horrified, but they're quite happy to eat meat wrapped in plastic that they don't have to think about.
We'll have gammon on Boxing Day, from our own kune kune pigs. They've had a great free range life, and killed locally by appointment.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Farming livestock is contributing to climate change & the degradation of the planet. It creates untold suffering on an epic scale, so on those notes the pony meat is more eco-friendly & until slaughter they have a better life than most farmed animals. Personally though, I just wish they would control the population humanely & leave the ponies in peace.


.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> Farming livestock is contributing to climate change & the degradation of the planet. It creates untold suffering on an epic scale, so on those notes the pony meat is more eco-friendly & until slaughter they have a better life than most farmed animals. Personally though, I just wish they would control the population humanely & leave the ponies in peace.
> 
> .


Agree with you completely.


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Farming livestock is contributing to climate change & the degradation of the planet. It creates untold suffering on an epic scale, so on those notes the pony meat is more eco-friendly & until slaughter they have a better life than most farmed animals. Personally though, I just wish they would control the population humanely & leave the ponies in peace.
> 
> .


Well, yes and no. Huge factory farming, where hundreds of animals are kept together in a small space, needing ventilation units and antibiotics just to survive are obviously bad ( welfare, electricity, antibiotic resistance) . Being crammed in a lorry and driven for miles, sometimes abroad, is bad ( welfare and diesel). Pigging out on meat 3 times daily ( fried breakfast, lunchtime ham sandwich, chicken stir fry supper) is bad ( human health, greed, waste not eaten).
But livestock farming, done correctly and compassionately, plays an important part in our diet, our mental well being, and yes, in using the planet's resources well.
Farming livestock properly uses land otherwise unsuitable for arable production ( hill grazing sheep/ cattle utilises land that if ploughed would rapidly erode to dust). Animal manure is an essential part of any rotation unless you want to go down the artificial fertiliser route, you can't just take a crop off the land without putting something back, it's known as raping the land.
Big arable farmers use sprays of insecticides, pesticides, weedkillers, increasing asthma, killing pollinating insects, killing birds that live on weed seeds through starvation or lower clutch size of eggs, and animals higher up the food chain. Small scale farmers have an understanding of the land, which often goes back in the same family for generations.
Vegetarians rarely consider the manner of death of vermin ( such as rats) which eat grain. Instead of worrying about a calm animal being killed by captive bolt they should think about the agonising gut cramps and internal bleeding of the many vermin species killed by arable farmers. You don't see the animal as end product on the shelf, so you don't consider its suffering to allow you to have that loaf of bread, or those greenhouse salad crops.
Those who drink milk but don't eat beef or goat - how do you think the mum comes into milk? I have seriously had a mum in playgroup ( actually breastfeeding her own twins), who said she had no clue milk came from "an actually lactating cow". Well, how did she think it happened then? "I thought they sort of induced their glands or something"! Yes really, they walk amongst us, those who think they can drink milk because nothing dies ( male dairy goat kids usually killed at birth, yes birth, as not worth the trouble to bottle-feed them as a low meat breed. Bull calves of dairy breeds get a slightly better deal, going as rose veal at a few months, as opposed to 30 months for a grass fed beef breed).
Eggs come from chickens, which is no surprise. But again, there are meat breeds where both male and female are eaten at around 8 weeks old ( often with bone deformities as developed to grow super fast and their legs can't take it). Eggs come from the females of specialist laying breeds. But who wants to eat light weight males of that breed? No breast meat on them at all, so killed at hatching - this is why sex linking ( linking colour to sex) was developed, so big hatcheries could sell "guaranteed female" day old chicks to commercial laying units.
We raise our hens and cocks together, killing cocks for home consumption and as they lead a free range life they are tasty, healthy and loads of leg meat ( from all that running around).
Farming livestock does have an impact on the environment, but so does everything we do. Leaving that lettuce to rot in your salad drawer is as wrong as killing a well raised animal for food. Driving the extra distance, burning diesel, so you can make that "feelgood " trip to get your veggies from the farmshop instead of supermarket. Sure, if it's en route anyway, but don't make a special trip, or else buy a shedload and freeze/chutney some. And buying "organic" New Zealand apples, when here in the UK we have some of the best varieties in the world, what's that all about?
Buying a veggie option for supper, then letting the carrier bag blow away in the wind to kill a turtle or albatross a few weeks down the line?
If you're still reading, I promise rant nearly over. I just hate the easy " livestock farming causes problems" simple view, when it's so much more complicated than that. I raise my own meat. I kill or have killed my own meat. I don't enjoy the killing, but I can enjoy the meat, knowing that animal has had the best darned life it could have.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Catharinem said:


> Well, yes and no. Huge factory farming, where hundreds of animals are kept together in a small space, needing ventilation units and antibiotics just to survive are obviously bad ( welfare, electricity, antibiotic resistance) . Being crammed in a lorry and driven for miles, sometimes abroad, is bad ( welfare and diesel). Pigging out on meat 3 times daily ( fried breakfast, lunchtime ham sandwich, chicken stir fry supper) is bad ( human health, greed, waste not eaten).
> But livestock farming, done correctly and compassionately, plays an important part in our diet, our mental well being, and yes, in using the planet's resources well.
> Farming livestock properly uses land otherwise unsuitable for arable production ( hill grazing sheep/ cattle utilises land that if ploughed would rapidly erode to dust). Animal manure is an essential part of any rotation unless you want to go down the artificial fertiliser route, you can't just take a crop off the land without putting something back, it's known as raping the land.
> Big arable farmers use sprays of insecticides, pesticides, weedkillers, increasing asthma, killing pollinating insects, killing birds that live on weed seeds through starvation or lower clutch size of eggs, and animals higher up the food chain. Small scale farmers have an understanding of the land, which often goes back in the same family for generations.
> ...


Do you not feed any of your livestock on soy? grains? Most farmers do - & if all feed grown to feed livestock went straight to humans we could alleviate world hunger - so your points about arable farming are strawman arguments tbh. Don't get me wrong I totally accept that intensive arable farming is having a dire affect on nature. But three quarters of the worlds agricultural land is used for rearing livestock with a third of our cereal crop to feed them. If we stopped farming animals we would need far less land & use far less water. Hill farming is heavily subsidised by the tax payer because its just not profitable and keeping the hills bare & degraded of trees is causing flooding downstream - our uplands should be rewilded imho. I really respect that you keep your animals as ethically as possible and if animals are going to be farmed that's the way they should be kept & I know you care about nature. You are a great example of a farmer imo, but with such a huge demand for meat the only way for livestock farming to become sustainable is for people to eat less meat & the demand for meat to reduce. We are destroying rainforest at a catastrophic rate to feed all these animals & the livestock industry is the 2nd biggest contributor to global warming I believe.

(Just to add, I'm by no means perfect myself but I have total respect, admiration & my utmost gratitude to strict vegans who have the least impact on the planet & the lives of animals .)

.


----------



## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

noushka05 said:


> Do you not feed any of your livestock on soy? grains? Most farmers do - & if all feed grown to feed livestock went straight to humans we could alleviate world hunger - so your points about arable farming are strawman arguments tbh. Don't get me wrong I totally accept that intensive arable farming is having a dire affect on nature. But three quarters of the worlds agricultural land is used for rearing livestock with a third of our cereal crop to feed them. If we stopped farming animals we would need far less land & use far less water. Hill farming is heavily subsidised by the tax payer because its just not profitable and keeping the hills bare & degraded of trees is causing flooding downstream - our uplands should be rewilded imho. I really respect that you keep your animals as ethically as possible and if animals are going to be farmed that's the way they should be kept & I know you care about nature. You are a great example of a farmer imo, but with such a huge demand for meat the only way for livestock farming to become sustainable is for people to eat less meat & the demand for meat to reduce. We are destroying rainforest at a catastrophic rate to feed all these animals & the livestock industry is the 2nd biggest contributor to global warming I believe.
> 
> (Just to add, I'm by no means perfect myself but I have total respect, admiration & my utmost gratitude to strict vegans who have the least impact on the planet & the lives of animals .)
> 
> .


Will be a short reply, not out of lack of respect, but due to looming school run!

Yes, I feed a small amount of cereals, but mostly grass. Cows, sheep, geese, kune kune pigs are all grazers. Cows, sheep and pigs will also eat hay.
Many of the grains and cereals fed to livestock are deemed unsuitable for human consumption ( by those in the well fed West). 
Purely on a nutritional argument, that growing grain to feed to livestock rather than the end consumer human is wasteful, it depends on the circumstances. Only on PF a week or so ago was a thing on ugly vegetables being wasted rather than fed to pigs. You could as well argue that irrigated, fertilised, imported from Spain, winter strawberries are wasteful of resources, yet they sit in the supermarkets as we speak.
I agree we need to eat less meat, much less meat. In fact, less food full stop. Don't waste food, respect life and respect death. 
Have to go, but I guess my summary is do what you can justify with arguments you can defend. I don't object to killing or raising my own meat, I do object to seeing half eaten sandwiches tossed into a roadside verge. Each must do what they beleive, as long as it is a belief and not a sleepwalk. Each of us can do small things to improve our world.


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2015)

Nettles said:


> We've lived very different lives @ouesi lol. The closest I got to a cow as a kid was at an open farm where I spent the entire time gagging at the smell of a cow pat.
> 
> I did make friends with a cow on holiday in Co. Kerry last year. I fed her grass every morning and she followed me round the perimeter of the field mooing at me while I told her how pretty she was. I felt like David Attenborough


I've tasted cow, goat, and horse milk straight from the animal. Horse milk is the sweetest, and none taste a thing like what we buy in the grocery store 
Oh, and human milk too LOL.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Nettles:

I really don't agree that people who eat meat, but don't kill it themselves, can be compared to pimps. 
.
.
I don't mean that literally everyone in the world must kill every animal they eat - or wear,
or use for any purpose that requires the animal to be DEAD - obviously, someone who
lives in a 3rd-floor walk-up apt can't slaughter their very own personal 1-ton steer for the
year's meat, & process him into steaks, roasts, & burger.
.
But if U literally aren't WILLING to kill that individual animal or that species, then - IMO -
U shouldn't be eating or wearing or otherwise using that animal or species.
.
And yes, if U pass the distasteful chore of taking their lives on to others, if U could
"never, ever DO that", yet profit by their death - eat the meat, wear the sheepskin boots,
etc - that's pimping.
.
It's no different from the folks who claim to *"Love all animals", *but they think nothing of
using a sticky-trap to kill mice in the house, or an electrical lure & grid to wipe-out every
night-flying insect that they deliberately attract to their yard - beneficial, pests, & all.
.
A mouse can feel just as acutely as we humans do the pain of death by dehydration - &
that's a very slow painful death. A katydid or Luna moth has done nothing to "deserve"
frying on a light-lure's shock grid, but sticky-traps & shock-grids don't differentiate be-
tween species.
Biodiversity isn't just "out there" on the coral reefs or the African plains; it's in our back-
yard gardens & our cityscapes, too. City parks need carrion beetles & dung-beetles as
much as any "wilderness" does.

.

cont'd, Quote,

... Part of the reason I choose not to eat meat is because I don't think you should eat an animal you wouldn't
be prepared to kill yourself. It just doesn't feel right to me to eat it, but not do the dirty work.
I have no problem with others who feel comfortable doing that though.
I eat fish, mainly because I don't like a lot of vegetables and nutritionally, I needed to compromise with some
part of my diet so I started to eat fish again. I would be prepared to kill and gut a fish and have done in the past.
It wasn't something I enjoyed doing at all, but I did it, and would do it again if needs be.
.
.
Yes, that, too, makes sense.
U're eating only the species U could slaughter, if U needed to do so, in order to eat.
.
Ppl like my eejit BIL on t'other hand really irk me - my nevvie was at least 9-YO,
we were at the dairy farm where we bought our [unpasteurized, bulk-tank, Tb-tested,
raw] milk - & brought our own jugs to fill; Jerry asked me to show David the calves,
& when I did, I explained heifers stay for the herd & was about to say bull calves were
castrated for beef, he shook his head & put a finger to his lips.
What the H***?!?! - This from the man who eats steak whenever possible, burger or
pork when steak is unavailable, & whose kid thought McDonald's was gourmet fare.
.
Just how old was the kid gonna be, when Jerry let slip that steers were turned into the
beefsteak he was eating? --- that stuff doesn't grown on trees, & isn't a fungus we go
into the woods for, & doesn't [yet] grow in a vat.
It was once a fuzzy, warm-bodied baby with big knees & bluey-brown eyes & a moist
nose, flipping his tail as he sucked from a bucket with a teat spigot.
.
.
.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Just had to share these taken at the weekend when we were in Dartmoor


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Yes I would have agreed totally that supermarket meat in fancy packaging is a little too detached from "the real thing" and think good old butcher style is best.. but the more I think about it, milk, or any dairy product for that matter is also very detached from "the real thing" but yet for some reason that doesn't bother me and I don't really know why tbh. I know I certainly couldn't drink milk if it was presented to me in an udder lol.


I find this odd as dairy is probably one of the cruelest farming practice. Even if the cows are cared for and they have a good stockman, just the way the dairy industry has to work to produce enough to survive means it's intrinsically cruel


----------



## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

What part do you find odd? That I eat/drink dairy or that the packaging doesn't bother me


----------



## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Just had to share these taken at the weekend when we were in Dartmoor


Nice pony, but very Shetland type. I thought they had removed all the Shetland types from the moor now.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Catharinem said:


> Will be a short reply, not out of lack of respect, but due to looming school run!
> 
> Yes, I feed a small amount of cereals, but mostly grass. Cows, sheep, geese, kune kune pigs are all grazers. Cows, sheep and pigs will also eat hay.
> Many of the grains and cereals fed to livestock are deemed unsuitable for human consumption ( by those in the well fed West).
> ...


Humans wouldn't eat crops grown for livestock Catherine, they would switch from growing 'feed' crops to growing 'food' crops. Yes we should eat less meat & I agree we should waste less produce all round. But I couldnt help get the feeling in your previous post that you were knocking people who did eat less meat - the ones who actually eat no meat at all lol I've always found many vegetarians are extremely conscience about buying as ethically & eco friendly as possible - vegans even more so. Vegans seem to be much more informed about the catastrophic consequences farming animals is having on the environment and on the climate. This very timely article by George Monbiot is well worth a read, it brings up a few of your points too. - .http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-meal-long-haul-flight-meats-damaging-planet



rona said:


> I find this odd as dairy is probably one of the cruelest farming practice. Even if the cows are cared for and they have a good stockman, just the way the dairy industry has to work to produce enough to survive means it's intrinsically cruel


I agree with you the dairy industry is a very cruel industry, Rona. Just out of curiosity do you consume dairy produce yourself? And if not which vegan substitutes do you use? (if any at all)


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I grew up on a farm, & dairy is not ALL "cruel practices", U can buy or produce
dairy items ethically & humanely - U just have to look for them. Plus U'll probly
pay a bit more - which generally means 'eat a bit less', not a bad thing, IMO.
.
Organic dairy products from cows on pasture are not cheap, but the quality is
excellent; pasture isn't a year-round option in temperate climates, so baled or
silage feed is used when the grass is snow-covered: orchard grass, alfalfa hay,
ensilage, root crops such as swedes, etc, are fed in winter. Cows easily break a
leg or pelvis on winter ice, so they go out less in winter than in the other 9-mos
of the year.
However, being indoors as a group in a warm draft-free barn isn't a bad thing,
when temps are well below freezing & the wind is blowing a gale.
.
rBGH is the industry-standard in USA commercial dairy production, which makes
each cow produce more milk, but at a massive cost to the animal, as it greatly in-
creases the risk of stillbirths, miscarriages, & mastitis infections [udder].
Organic milk does not allow use of rBGH [Bovine Growth Hormone] nor chemical
pesticides, herbicides, & other toxins in feed or on the cows; "preventive" antibio-
tics, usually given in the feed, are also banned in organic dairy.
.
The US agri-industry is fighting tooth & nail to keep using prophylactic antibiotics,
e-g, dosing healthy animals with antibiotics daily to "keep them healthy" despite
the known rapid proliferation of antibiotic-resistant microbes.
_*This is insane, *__*IMO - *_sooner rather than later, we will have a massive backlash
in the form of a highly lethal, highly resistant microbe. It's inevitable. We humans
are 'hardening' microbes around the world, by using antibiotic soaps, sprays, pills,
ointments, etc, un-necessarily, AND by polluting the soils, waters, & air with anti-
biotics in agricultural runoff, human sewage, & industrial waste.
.
India is an industrial powerhouse for pharm manufacture, & many Indian streams
are so highly contaminated by antibiotics from drug manufacturing that drinking
8 to 12 oz of that water will give U a "therapeutic dose" of some random antibiotic -
needless to say, humans weigh over 100# as adults, & are at far less risk than the
other flora & fauna, especially aquatic invertebrates & fish who try to live in these
waters.
EVERYTHING downstream of those plants is forced to rely on contaminated water -
for drinking, bathing, crop irrigation, water for livestock, water for wildlife.
.
Over 75% of all the antibiotics made in the US are used not in humans to treat ill-
ness, but in livestock to "prevent" illness & artificially speed growth.
.
If U want to help stop this madness, buy organic - eat organic; use antibiotics only
when needed, & ONLY when the Dr knows what the H*** s/he is trying to kill - not
a broad-spectrum hosing with a random drug, aimed at an unknown microbe.
That's as asinine as spraying machine-gun fire at gnats.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, Noushka05:

Humans wouldn't eat crops grown for livestock, Catherine; they would switch from growing 'feed'
crops to growing 'food' crops. 
Yes, we should eat less meat, & I agree, we should waste less produce all round... I couldn't help
[but] get the feeling from your previous post that you were knocking people who did eat less meat -
the ones who actually eat no meat at all, lol 
I've always found many vegetarians are extremely conscientious about buying as ethically & eco
friendly as possible - vegans even more so. Vegans seem to be much more informed about the
catastrophic consequences [of] farming animals... on the environment and on the climate.

This very timely article by George Monbiot is well worth a read, it brings up a few of your points too. - http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-meal-long-haul-flight-meats-damaging-planet

...
end QUOTE
.
.
Yes, producing protein by feeding stock is often incredibly inefficient, & here
in the USA, we make it worse by using concentrates to speed growth & put on
fat; grass-fed beef converts stuff we cannot eat into lean meat.
.
However, to get more marbling [fat] & grade higher [choice or prime], commer-
cial beef producers use CAFOs, 'concentrated animal feeding operations', to
finish the growth process before slaughter, where hundreds or even thousands
of animals mill about in pens with an auger fed trough, delivering stuff that we
COULD eat to these year-plus cattle.
IIRC from my livestock-production / beef class in AgEd, it takes 9# of concen-
trates consumed by a steer or cow to produce a single pound of muscle meat,
e-g, beef.
.
Not only do CAFOs cause massive environmental problems from the sheer con-
centration of so many animals & their waste in one area [water & soil & air pollu-
tion, liquid waste lagoons that leak or collapse, fast-spreading illnesses, etc],
but we waste high-quality protein such as corn & other grains which cattle don't
*need* to make meat. It's overkill.
.
That intake of excessive protein makes fat, which grades higher - but the "hot"
high-protein diet also resulted in the existence of a brand-new organism, the
acid-tolerant strain of super-potent E.coli that sickens so many humans every
year.
"Old" strains of E.coli were killed simply by stomach acid in cattle, & thus didn't
survive in large numbers to contaminate meat in the slaughter process; any
"old" strain E.coli that survived & were actually eaten in beef would usually be
killed by our own human stomach acids, again meaning very few lived to hit the
gut & make trouble.
.
The new "hot" acid-tolerant E.coli isn't bothered by stomach acids, survives in
large numbers to enter the colon, & can hospitalize the ignorant consumer, or
even kill U - altho generally it's children or the elderly who die, it's possible for
healthy young adults to die, too.
Evolution isn't a once-upon-a-time phenomenon, it's a here-&-now event, & we 
EVOLVED a new strain of very dangerous E.coli to bite our butts, by feeding cat-
tle high-concentrate, extremely unnatural diets.
.
There's just nothing like shooting oneself in the foot.
.
.
.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Not going to be a long post ( it is Christmas after all!) but just a few points;

I'm not anti those people who eat less meat ( in fact I said we all need to eat less meat, and also less total food). I am anti "do gooder " veggies who pat themselves on the back without thought. Not buying meat,,but buying New Zealand apples, or strawberries in January. Those who keep a few chickens for eggs, keep a cock to hatch out a few chicks as it's " natural " and then literally lob the teenage cocks over my fence to 1) get killed by mine, 2) not know where to go to bed at night so get foxed, or 3) flap round in mid air as being tossed from our gateway ( quick getaway by the driver,) such that they end up being splatted on the road. Those people who are so determined not to eat the excess males that theythemselves have bred, that they abandon them to an unknown fate. I've also had a vegetarian animal lover in the car with me when the car in front hit a rabbit and it was squirming in the road with its guts out. Their wailing and wringing of hands didn't ease it's passing, that was my job, from years of staying calm and getting the job done no matter how nasty.

I have personal experience of wheat grown organically not meeting the grade for human consumption, and being sold instead as animal feed, so the fact some farmers grow specifically for the animal feed market isn't a requirement, but a convenience for the feed merchants knowing their supplier in advance. But besides,,I'm not championing pens of livestock churning round in pens, fattening prior to slaughter, but small quantities of hard feed in the hardest part of winter. My own beef was born on the farm, self weaned off the mum's when mums had enough, and shut in a field shelter ( bribed in with hay and an inch of nuts in a bucket) the evening before slaughter, tone loaded at stupid o clock in the morning into the trailer for their 30 minute last journey. This is how we should all demand our meat be treated. As a dexter/lowline cross the beef marbles well and is full of flavour on a grass diet. They are not fed soy and all the other rubbish, and those cows had no medication at all in the 28 months from birth to slaughter apart from a squirmed iodine on their umbilical when first born. 
I totally agree it is wasteful to use land for soy for livestock,,but it is not necessary. But the same could be said of for instance tea or coffee plantations, they don't supply calories to the hungry of the world. Vegetarianism is only a small part of being responsible, and Brownie points for being veggie can be lost again by wanting winter strawberries or abandoning cockerals. 
Done correctly, compassionately, ethically, eating meat is not a bad thing of itself.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I agree with much of Ur comment above, Catherine, & here in the USA, it's fruit
in winter from Chile, Mexico, or other Central or S American countries, which are
often treated or grown with nasty chemicals not intended for food crops, such as
pesticides intended for timber crops.
.
*However...* meat-eating is an everyday habit, & those who buy an occasional pint
of Chilean blueberries or pound of Chilean grapes don't wreak the same level of
havoc as the person who habitually buys conventionally-produced poultry, eggs,
beef, pork, & dairy products, year-round.
Winter fruit from far-flung places with lots of food miles is a seasonal sin; & aside
from fruitarians, who overwhelmingly eat organic & mostly try to eat local produce
or can it for out of season eating, most folks eat very little fruit - it's an add-on, not
a primary fraction of one's diet.
The amount of cherries, strawberries, etc, eaten annually in AND out of season to-
gether vs the intake of bacon, chicken breasts, beef patties, lamb chops, et al, is
miniscule.
.
That's not to say that i ignore food-miles or dismiss the importation of out of season
fruits & veg as of no concern; i don't, but compared to the year-round meat industry,
it's petty.
.
.
QUOTE, CatherineM:

"...
[I'm critical of those]... who keep a few chickens for eggs, *keep a cock to hatch out a few chicks
as it's 'natural',* & then literally lob the teenage cocks over my fence to 1) get killed by [my cock],
2) not know where to [roost] at night so [they're eaten by foxes, or 3) flap round in mid air as they
are being tossed [at] our gateway [from a moving vehicle, so th]at they die], splatted o the road.

Those people who are so determined not to eat the excess males that they themselves have bred,
that they abandon them to an unknown fate.

END QUOTE
.
.
Anybody who's dumb-enuf to keep an unecessary cockbird with their backyard hens
deserves what they get - altho obviously, the chickens do not deserve the results of
that stoopid decision.
.
Hens lay eggs with or w/o a cockerel, & keeping noisy, aggro male birds who harass
the hens is not needed for egg production, aggravates the neighbors needlessly, &
causes the hens grief - many roosters will pluck hens bald & hump them over & over,
treading the poor hens into the ground when they're excited.
They'll also take the best of the pickings when free-range hens find a tasty tidbit -
rushing over to nab the earthworm she's pecking, or snatch the grasshopper, etc.
.
Cocks will use food as a lure to bring hens to themselves, too [a food call to bring hens
running is a common rooster ploy; devoted cocks use it to provide food to their hens, &
little Napoleons use it sometimes as a lure, other times as an outright ruse, jumping on
any hen who comes within pouncing distance - sometimes he's lying, & there isn't even
a tidbit to be had, he just wants to hump].


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> But I couldnt help get the feeling in your previous post that you were knocking people who did eat less meat


Trouble is things are also the other way around frequently. I have the utmost respect for vegans/vegetarians who respect other people's choices as that it was it is, a choice. I've been at a resturant before knowing someone I was with and asked if they minded if I had meat. They didn't as they recognised it as such. Neither did I get lectures.

Like a lot of things, it's a matter of personal belief. Start preaching and you'll find people will dig their heels in.


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

Catharinem said:


> Perfectly put. For Christmas we will have our own goose. Currently wandering in happy ignorance completely free range. Will be sleeping happily in back of grain store one night ( put themselves to bed when dark.) Will be picked up and dispatched quickly, painlessly and without stress. Hang for a few days and then plucked cooked and enjoyed. People who happily buy turkeys and geese from the supermarket are horrified, but they're quite happy to eat meat wrapped in plastic that they don't have to think about.
> We'll have gammon on Boxing Day, from our own kune kune pigs. They've had a great free range life, and killed locally by appointment.


How was your Christmas dinner & Boxing Day gammon ? rool
Genuine question as I love the way you have gone about it judging by the post above. 
I would love to try Kune Kune gammon or sausages.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> Farming livestock is contributing to climate change & the degradation of the planet. It creates untold suffering on an epic scale, so on those notes the pony meat is more eco-friendly & until slaughter they have a better life than most farmed animals. Personally though, I just wish they would control the population humanely & leave the ponies in peace





Catharinem said:


> Not going to be a long post ( it is Christmas after all!) but just a few points;
> 
> I'm not anti those people who eat less meat ( in fact I said we all need to eat less meat, and also less total food). I am anti "do gooder " veggies who pat themselves on the back without thought. Not buying meat,,but buying New Zealand apples, or strawberries in January. Those who keep a few chickens for eggs, keep a cock to hatch out a few chicks as it's " natural " and then literally lob the teenage cocks over my fence to 1) get killed by mine, 2) not know where to go to bed at night so get foxed, or 3) flap round in mid air as being tossed from our gateway ( quick getaway by the driver,) such that they end up being splatted on the road. Those people who are so determined not to eat the excess males that theythemselves have bred, that they abandon them to an unknown fate. I've also had a vegetarian animal lover in the car with me when the car in front hit a rabbit and it was squirming in the road with its guts out. Their wailing and wringing of hands didn't ease it's passing, that was my job, from years of staying calm and getting the job done no matter how nasty.
> 
> ...


Did you read the Monbiot article?



Goblin said:


> Trouble is things are also the other way around frequently. I have the utmost respect for vegans/vegetarians who respect other people's choices as that it was it is, a choice. I've been at a resturant before knowing someone I was with and asked if they minded if I had meat. They didn't as they recognised it as such. Neither did I get lectures.
> 
> Like a lot of things, it's a matter of personal belief. Start preaching and you'll find people will dig their heels in.


So I give my opinion (This is the post I was originally pulled up on) >


noushka05 said:


> Farming livestock is contributing to climate change & the degradation of the planet. It creates untold suffering on an epic scale, so on those notes the pony meat is more eco-friendly & until slaughter they have a better life than most farmed animals. Personally though, I just wish they would control the population humanely & leave the ponies in peace


and its 'preaching', everyone else gives their opinion & its not LOL


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
If all the ponies on Dartmoor are, indeed, OWNED animals, why can they
not require anyone who owns a colt to have him assessed for quality, at
say 18-mos age, & then if he's lacking, the owner either gets him gelded,
out of their own pocket, or he cannot run at large?
.
.
Are all the animals chipped for owner ID? -- If not, why not?
.
If a colt who isn't desired for breeding is left intact & caught roaming, later,
either as an under-4-YO colt or as an over-4-YO stallion, the authorities
OUGHT TO BE ABLE to charge a whopping punitive fine to the owner of
record, & if the fine's not payed within 30-days or 60-days, pick up the an-
imal in Q, assuming he's still at large, geld him, & rehome him.
.
Theoretically, that would make most irresponsible twits think twice; especially
if, as happens in the USA, tax-refunds can be taken to pay an outstanding fine.
.
.
.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Its complicated @leashedForLife - this link explains some of how it all works

http://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/learning...sources/lab-factsheetshome/lab-dartmoorponies


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Mr Gizmo said:


> How was your Christmas dinner & Boxing Day gammon ? rool
> Genuine question as I love the way you have gone about it judging by the post above.
> I would love to try Kune Kune gammon or sausages.


Christmas dinner was yummy, as always! 
We haven't had the gammon yet as decided couldn't face big dinner 2 days running,,so will be New Year' Eve instead. However, the bacon we had done actually sizzles as it cooks, as opposed to oozing that whitish water like supermarket bacon.
The gammon were cut big, between 5 and 5. 5kg each, so will be cooked once, then leftovers sliced and frozen in decent portion sizes. 
Kune kune can be a bit fatty, but the meat has a rich,,porky flavour, and more like a red meat than white. The fat from bacon and a small loin joint I've saved, to use as lard in a hot crust pastry pork pie ( set with trotter gelatin) for another of our Christmas/New Year period cold buffets.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, RottiePointerHouse:

It's complicated, LFL - this link explains some of how it all works

http://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/learning...sources/lab-factsheetshome/lab-dartmoorponies
.
.

Thanks, RPH - about this part:

*Dartmoor Commoners' Council's Stallion Support Scheme*
The Dartmoor Commoners' Council introduced this in 1999 to ensure that ponies
not hardy enough to survive on the moor are not bred. Regulations have been put 
in place by the Council to ensure that only stallions that have been inspected and
approved by an independent vet to be hardy, healthy, and of good confirmation
are allowed out on the commons.

To ensure that mares do not mate with their own offspring all colt foals must come
off the moor during their first year. They must remain off the commons until after
they are two years old. They may then only go back on the commons if they have
been approved as a stallion through the scheme, or castrated.
To prevent young filly foals mating at too young an age, they too must come off the
commons in their first year. They must stay off until the following year.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Do they actually enforce that rule / those rules?
Gotta go, later...
.
.
.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't eat animals anyway, but if I did, I don't think there's a particular issue with Dartmoor pony meat. Many of the ponies on Dartmoor are random ponies these days, not actual Darties and their fate can be a lot worse than being killed and eaten. I too am in the camp that eating pony, cow or pig is the same thing and I'd rather animals were raised for meat out on Dartmoor than in a shed or cage somewhere, whether they're a pony, cow or sheep.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, RottiePointerHouse:
> 
> It's complicated, LFL - this link explains some of how it all works
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I don't know, we are just regular visitors to the area and don't live there (yet).


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Thanks, RPH. 
.
.
Does anyone else know if the authorities actually ENFORCE the drafted bill,
which tries to prevent inbreeding & poor-quality studs siring seedy foals?
.
Obviously, they are at least _*trying*_ to maintain some standard of quality in the
pony foals & stallions, & keep their gene pool fairly diverse, too.
But without the enforcement bit, as well as co-operation from pony owners, it
will be impossible to prevent inbreeding AND poor-quality sires throwing lesser
quality foals, over time.
.
As for popn-control, sequestering studs isn't that hard, nor is gelding.
.
A paddock for keeping studs away from mares during estrus isn't a huge bur-
den for an owner. They'd need some sort of paddock or stall or at least a run-in
shed, for those times that an individual needs supervised care - recovering from
injury, when ill, young foals for the 1st fortnight or so, etc.
.
.
.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

The foals are born out on the moor and stay out straight away as far as I can tell. We took these photos last Spring - a couple of these foals were still unsteady on their feet


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

While those ponies look OK, they are still shetland types & small.
Where abouts on Dartmoor did you take those photo's, Rottiepointerhouse?

True pedigree Dartmoor ponies rarely if ever are turned out on the open moor now, yet years ago, before the introduction of non Dartmoor stallions they were & allowed to run free.
http://www.dartmoorponysociety.com/aboutthebreed.html


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Valanita said:


> While those ponies look OK, they are still shetland types & small.
> Where abouts on Dartmoor did you take those photo's, Rottiepointerhouse?
> 
> True pedigree Dartmoor ponies rarely if ever are turned out on the open moor now, yet years ago, before the introduction of non Dartmoor stallions they were & allowed to run free.
> http://www.dartmoorponysociety.com/aboutthebreed.html


Those ones are at Sourton Down (not far from Okehampton where we have a place), some of the others I post are on the moors above Tavistock towards the Two Bridges Hotel.

http://www.westcountrywalks.com/dartmoor-swdevon/ndartmoor/sourtontors/sourtontors-01.php


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

at the end of the day its either cull and landfill the carcass or cut it up and sell it....


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## Valanita (Apr 13, 2010)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Those ones are at Sourton Down (not far from Okehampton where we have a place), some of the others I post are on the moors above Tavistock towards the Two Bridges Hotel.
> 
> http://www.westcountrywalks.com/dartmoor-swdevon/ndartmoor/sourtontors/sourtontors-01.php


Thank you. The road from Plymouth to Yelverton has ponies like those as well. That road is fenced off from the moor so the livestock can't stray across it.
I was under the impression that farmers had removed small shetland type stallions & put out better quality & bigger animals, but it doesn't look like it.


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

We are on the other side of dartmoor ( manaton side ) and the ponies are very mixed in size and colours from grey's to dark bays even the odd chestnut.


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