# Speechless !!



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Have a look at this ad that I stumbled across.

Preloved | breeders bonanza for sale in Kings Lynn, Norfolk, UK

How on earth did they manage to get someone to sell them an active registered cat when they are so willing to part with them.

Those poor kittens will be passed from pillar to post and to advertise that they can be used to make a profit !!!

I hope they do not end up in the wrong hands but sadly I think they will


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Your thread title says it all! Doesn't even specify the breed so probably won't end up with a dedicated breeder. They could end up with any profiteer with enough cash  A very sad state of affairs.

Added: a thought... Perhaps it's a scam? Sounds like a lot of money involved afterall. xx


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

i thought it was a scam when i saw that since as above.. i noticed they have not said what breed of cat. if not then its such a shame for the cats


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

it isnt a scam sadly, they contacted me for a cat last year & I said no as I didnt have any, then they then bought all of those cats they are selling PLUS their kittens as they had already been born, they have sold All the kittens on active & are now selling the parents & the cats they just bought 10/12weeks ago.

So glad I didnt get involved 

They are also selling a stud for a extremely high fee with a friend who is 6 and has been very very ill and could be pregnant which is really sad as she just had a litter with them.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Has to be bengals at those silly prices. So sad that such a beautiful breed attracts those types just interested in money not the cats themselves. I have been shocked at the extent of the market in adult actives, some even sold pregnant in that particular breed. Shows no respect for the cat by buyer or seller imho.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> some even sold pregnant in that particular breed


That, I think is a distasteful part of breeding. Poor cats.

Is this the same person?
Preloved | bengal breeding business oppertunity. for sale in Kings Lynn, Norfolk, UK
and Preloved | brown spot bengal kittens, very good lines, active? for sale in Kings Lynn, Norfolk, UK
Should they not be contacting the original breeders first before selling active cats on? Is that not part of the contract in many cases?

I think the emphasis on business and making a profit stinks actually. Sorry


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> That, I think is a distasteful part of breeding. Poor cats.
> 
> Is this the same person?
> Preloved | bengal breeding business oppertunity. for sale in Kings Lynn, Norfolk, UK
> ...


Same person, The breeder sold her 3 or 4 adult cats, 2 had had kittens, one litter was 3 weeks old and one was something like a week? and another was about to have hers, they sold due to illness in the family, The advert sparked interest on the bengal forum so might be something on there about it.

She told me she was spaying the 6 year old as it is very ill hardly any teeth due to gingervistus (sp)

She only bought them about 10/12weeks ago and is selling all of them now  So glad that I never got involed with her, although I helped her out alot, wish I never bothered if I knew it was someone like this.

Considering these were her first pedigree litters Im surprised that all were able to go on the active, luckyif I see one in a litter let alone all of them good enough!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I think the emphasis on business and making a profit stinks actually. Sorry


I couldn't agree more, but then thats the outcome of having silly prices for actives in a breed, it attracts the unscrupulous. They see actives going for silly prices, buy one, then sell every kitten they can active regardless of suitablility. Those sorts of people always seem to be able to find people of like mind. It needs every decent breeder to stop selling actives for a premium to price them out of the market.

I always naively thought that breeders chose a breed because they previously owned them and loved them and breeding was a natural progression. Any research done was all about that breed, but its quite an eye opener to find lots of people choose a breed on the basis of the price of a kitten. I didn't even think about that until my first litter were ready to be advertised. Then there are those that have costed up the price of every active before making their choice.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

I agree, this kind of person is ruining the breed!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Saikou said:


> I couldn't agree more, but then thats the outcome of having silly prices for actives in a breed, it attracts the unscrupulous. They see actives going for silly prices, buy one, then sell every kitten they can active regardless of suitablility. Those sorts of people always seem to be able to find people of like mind. It needs every decent breeder to stop selling actives for a premium to price them out of the market.


So true! I guess the reason for selling them on must be that they have finally worked out that it isn't quite as easy a business as they once thought.

My breed is one of the lowest priced, with most breeders charging no extra for active girls at least. It may mean I never make any money but at least it means I'm not likely to end up inadvertently selling kittens to someone like this 

Liz


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

It also explains the cool reception you often get looking around for your foundation girl. I brought my little queen home Sunday (currently enjoying a week off with her though she really needs to learn my bed != litter tray) and fortunately the Egyptian mau community is still small enough that they weren't so frosty, though obviously there was lots of 'getting to know you and your plans' going on. I only paid a £150 mark up for her being active which I find fair given it's not a tick in a box. If you're doing it right a breeder will only sell you their 'best' kitten for active, and even be prepare dto say 'I don't have one good enough' (I hate saying that as I don't for a moment think my Lily is a better *cat*, simply a better example of a mau) and they went to a lot of hassle have an accredited show judge come over to give a second opinion etc.

Diverge from point! Sorry. Yes people like that should be shot and yes massive markups on active cats is a dangerous game. It really shouldn't be that away. Apart from a bit of extra fussing about maybe getting her judged it's not more hassle or cost to raise an active girl than a non-active, being triple the price or more is just stupid.

Edit - also, £1800 for 3 active registered adult queens and 2 active female kittens (which is what she's asking if you read down you get the price without the boy) really is extremely low, I do wonder if they're ill.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Saikou said:


> It needs every decent breeder to stop selling actives for a premium to price them out of the market.


The only problem that decent breeders have with selling active cats cheaper is that a decent breeder will only sell her very best on the active, one that will further the breed and one that is "special" in some way. If she sells her "special" kitten for say £500 on the active, that doesn't mean that some "profiteering" idiot will not manage to con her into selling that "special" kitten to them. Next thing, the "profiteer" is selling every kitten from that "special" cat for £1500 to £2000 each on the active.

Also many people have grown up as breeders selling the odd active cat to balance the books, they are not profiteering but merely breaking even, they too do not want to lose that source of revenue. It is a vicious circle, by the way Bengals are bred then they have a very short shelf life, new cats come on the scene and older cats are then out of date, so breeders keep *requiring* replacements, those are also £1000+ so the breeder needs to sell some kittens on the active to afford it and round it goes again. I was told early doors that Bengals are a difficult breed to breed by an older breeder and now I do actually believe that, so it is an expensive business and many compensate and supplement their program by selling expensive "active" kittens. 
I agree that if in an instant all active cats were suddenly only worth pet price then the breed would get rid of those out to make money quick, and it would be a much better breed because of it, but how do you do that without having decent breeders selling "cheap" beautiful kittens to those who would take advantage of that in an instant and make even more profit out of them?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Well no less work or dedication goes in to raising a so called 'pet quality' kitten to raising a 'show stopper' - so why the astronomical hike in price? It doesn't happen in other breeds and they get by. Maybe the odd breeder adds £100 or so to the price, but I can see no justification for trippling or quadruppling a pet price, that seems to be unique to bengals, and the reason there are so many unscruplous individuals out there all jumping on the band wagon.

There have been complete novices on here they get their websites up and running advertising their pet, show and show/breed prices for males and females, the latter being well into £1000s - top was £1400 for a male active I believe, and they hadn't even got their first queen, let alone had a litter of kittens.

If those tempting £1000+ sales prices were not there, neither would those bybs. Breeding is an expensive hobby, its the same for everyone. It costs no more to raise a show stopping bengal kitten than it does a pet quality siamese and vice versa. I have heard all the arguements about fabulous lines - but in reality who really owns them ? A nice healthy outcross should have many different lines behind them. Yes you may have to import, but if you do, then thats the cost of breeding, if its too much, don't do it.

imo 'good breeders' have no more right to charge exorbitant prices for kittens any more than unscrupulous ones. It may well be a simplistic view, but the only way to remove that golden goose element is to do away with those high price tags. Until then the breed will continue to attract those out for a quick buck.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Well no less work or dedication goes in to raising a so called 'pet quality' kitten to raising a 'show stopper' - so why the astronomical hike in price? It doesn't happen in other breeds and they get by. Maybe the odd breeder adds £100 or so to the price, but I can see no justification for trippling or quadruppling a pet price, that seems to be unique to bengals, and the reason there are so many unscruplous individuals out there all jumping on the band wagon.
> 
> There have been complete novices on here they get their websites up and running advertising their pet, show and show/breed prices for males and females, the latter being well into £1000s - top was £1400 for a male active I believe, and they hadn't even got their first queen, let alone had a litter of kittens.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this!!

When I first got into breeding Birman's a neighbour said to me 'why not bred Bengals you cna make more money from them' !

I simply replied because Birman's are the breed I love and I do not plan to make money!

It does seem that Bengals attract a lot of BYB breeders because they can sell the kittens for silly prices.

It's such a shame for these poor cats, is there no way the original breeders can get them back?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I hear what you are saying Saikou and I completely agree as do many Bengal breeders, it is just not easy to turn this particular tide.

It is corrupt in many different ways, with newbies being egged on by other newbies who know no better or who have their eye on the main chance or by established "breeders" who mentor them into their own corrupt ways. 

There are those who quite cleverly set themselves up as being "friendly" to newbies and are selling basically poor quality cats from "fantastic lines" as you say. Whether that is due to a degree of "cattery" blindness or whether it is a deliberate marketing ploy, I am not sure but it is probably both. But selling a few kittens at £1000+ each in every litter to people who know no better and to the detriment of the breed as a whole, is certainly a boost to finances.

I think that any good breeder who did lower prices for active cats would be a target for those seeking a "cheap" active cat. The power-house breeders in this breed would not lower their prices so your decent breeder would be alone in the wilderness, being taken for a fool, that is the problem as I see it.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I think that any good breeder who did lower prices for active cats would be a target for those seeking a "cheap" active cat. The power-house breeders in this breed would not lower their prices so your decent breeder would be alone in the wilderness, being taken for a fool, that is the problem as I see it.


Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with paying a premium for "active" cats per se as I think it helps to establish who the serious breeders are, the problem really is when people are selling inferior cats on the active list and there are a lot of those.


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

Elmstar said:


> Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with paying a premium for "active" cats per se as I think it helps to establish who the serious breeders are, the problem really is when people are selling inferior cats on the active list and there are a lot of those.


If by 'a premium' you mean an extra £100-200, sure. If by 'premium' you mean the current stupid 4-figure prices, then there's plenty of a problem with it as stated above by various people. The possibility of selling a kitten for £1000 will continue to attract the wrong sort. Can you see that add happneing to another breed? Probably not.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Elmstar said:


> Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with *paying a premium for "active" cats per se as I think it helps to establish who the serious breeders are*, the problem really is when people are selling inferior cats on the active list and there are a lot of those.


I don't think that necessarily follows as there are some who have come into the breed with loads of money, buy lots of "active" cats, with no breeding experience whatsoever and see it as an investment rather than as a serious attempt at breeding cats.
There are also some good breeders who have come into the breed with very little and have made an impact with the cats they have chosen and bred them well.

I feel the "premium" has attracted the wrong type of people to the Bengal breed. People who would never in their wildest dreams think of breeding cats, but the money is the carrot.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Well the answer for all good men and women to get together lower the prices and be VERY careful who they sell for breeding to. Only sell to breeders of like mind. The unscrupulous end up with the unscrupulous because they don't have to work too hard to get an active.

Again simplistic but surely a very genuine newbie would rather be put through the wringer to convince a breeder to agree to a reasonably priced active, rather than get an easy active at a exorbitant premium.

It has to start somewhere, not just to stamp out the gross profitering but also for the breed standard as a whole, surely. The good breeders with an eye to the future need to start squeezing out and pricing out the bad. If no one does anything it will just carry on getting worse.

If there is a growing group of like minded breeders, then they need to start a campaign, and set an example for the rest


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I feel the "premium" has attracted the wrong type of people to the Bengal breed. People who would never in their wildest dreams think of breeding cats, but the money is the carrot.


I agree.

There are serious breeders in other breeds who have not paid a premium for their actives and they do not value them any less.

How serious a person is about the process is a state of mind not the size of their bank balance. Careful questioning and getting to know someone a bit sorts the chaff from the wheat. It won't stop the odd con artist thats for sure, but then if the trend is towards no premium, what is their incentive? Let some other breed have them


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Kalipha said:


> If by 'a premium' you mean an extra £100-200, sure. If by 'premium' you mean the current stupid 4-figure prices, then there's plenty of a problem with it as stated above by various people. The possibility of selling a kitten for £1000 will continue to attract the wrong sort. Can you see that add happneing to another breed? Probably not.





Kalipha said:


> Can you see that add happneing to another breed? Probably not.


To be honest, yes I can. Any new breed as that's the way of the world nowadays.

We've never sold a cat on the active register but I've had to pay the market price for our breeding cats and to be honest we didn't mind as we assumed that was the norm.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

When does a breed stop being classed as new ? Bengals have been around for just over 20 yrs haven't they ? Oriental Shorthairs were first recognised mid to late '70s so aren't much older. There are still colours who haven't obtained ch status, so as a breed they are still developing. That said they don't have the designer-must have label that the outcross with the ALC gave the bengal.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I don't think it necessarily has to be a new breed, but there has to be something about it that people recognise as different or rare.

I am sure the Bengal will suffer for its own popularity and in a few years will be like owning a Staffie or a Poodle or last years mobile phone, not "cool" any more - at that point the prices will plummet and some other breed will be moaning about it's "premium" prices.

The masses will move on.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Saikou said:


> When does a breed stop being classed as new ? Bengals have been around for just over 20 yrs haven't they ?


About 18 years - when I wrote the article for Cat World in Jan 1990 there were none here then, I don't think they arrived until 1991. But you're right, they aren't that new really.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Yes, 1991 the first Bengal came to the UK.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I just looked at the start of the breed as a whole which whatever I found stated 1986. Whether that was here or the US it doesn't really matter.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I don't think that necessarily follows as there are some who have come into the breed with loads of money, buy lots of "active" cats, with no breeding experience whatsoever and see it as an investment rather than as a serious attempt at breeding cats.


Well anyone who thinks that there's loads of money to be made by breeding cats is sadly mistaken. I guess you could if you kept them all in a shed and just through the odd tin of food in there but to do it properly is expensive.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Elmstar said:


> Well anyone who thinks that there's loads of money to be made by breeding cats is sadly mistaken. I guess you could if you kept them all in a shed and just through the odd tin of food in there but to do it properly is expensive.


If you do it properly yes, but the issue is with the people that don't. They buy actives at a premium and make their money by selling every kitten on as active for a premium. Where those doing it properly only pass on the best for breeding, so maybe 1 kitten in a litter, if you are lucky.

Thats the point of this discussion really, no premium no incentive to for those people to sell every kitten active.


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Thats the point of this discussion really, no premium no incentive to for those people to sell every kitten active.


I wonder if there's any way that the governing bodies could put a stop to that? Surely they must realise that every cat in every litter cannot be of breeding quality yet they allow them to be registered as such?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

How would they know they weren't ? There's nothing to stop breeders selling kittens with supposed show potential with clear withholding faults either.

At the end of they day its up to the breeder and buyer to agree whether a cat is suitable for breeding. A good breeding queen does not necessarily have to be a show stopper, in fact in my breeds show stopping girls on the whole do not make good queens. Even then its still guess work, same for a stud, its what they carry and have the potential to throw thats important, not what they look like themselves. All that is way beyond the remit of a registering body.

I suppose they could do something about ridiculous pricing though, but it would mean all registering bodies agreeing, otherwise the unscrupulous will just registry hop as they do at the moment.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Elmstar said:


> I wonder if there's any way that the governing bodies could put a stop to that? Surely they must realise that every cat in every litter cannot be of breeding quality yet they allow them to be registered as such?


I don't think anyone can stop that unless every kitten is vetted for quality and who would do the vetting as that in itself is open to corruption and would cause a lot of disputes.


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

I am a fairly 'new' breeder of Bengals. I paid £1250 for my first queen. She went to outside stud, cost £450, I kept a queen back from that mating to help my programme & also keep my foundation queens line going. Myself & a friend then imported our stud. His price in dollars was $2500 which at the time because of the exchange rate worked out to about £1250. Then on top was his flight about $700 & then his 6 month stay in quarantine £1800. My friend & I then purchased another stud boy from the UK although both his parents are imports costing us £1600. I have recently imported a girl myself through the Pet Passport scheme (meaning her quarantine was done at the breeders) costing me roughly about £3500. Health testing needs to be accounted for aswell FIV,FELV HCM screening although HCM screening at the moment isn't being carried out by 'All' breeders & perhaps even certain PCR tests. I want to do these tests personally 
I would love for there to be a price drop on 'active' Bengals but as been said it would mean for everyone to club together to make this happen. The 'active' prices for Bengals as you can see are the same abroad & I can see why this does attract the 'wrong' sort of person who then thinks that Bengals are a money making breed. I paid these prices as I too saw it as the 'norm'. I feel Bengals are suffering so much already & hope that in the very near future something happens about 'active' prices.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I don't see how reducing the price could be seen as mean? Mean to whom ? Certainly not the cats they don't care. Any outlay involved with breeding is a personal choice. If a breeder chooses to import then thats to benefit their 'line' and if they show potentially give them an edge over the competition.

Those imported lines only benefit the gene pool if placed back into it and I can understand why the sale of an active cat from that import _may _ command a slightly higher price as the new owner would be 'benefiting' from those fresh lines, but where does that stop. The new owner paid a premium so they charge extra for their kitten so they do the same an so on and so on. Other breeders hear that £x is being charged they do the same. It seems accepting it as the norm is the problem.

I don't breed bengals and have no intention to do so, so you could argue that it has nothing to do with me, but I do feel that those sorts of prices charged by so called 'hobby breeders' are going to attract unwanted attention from the revenue etc and soon we are all going to be tarred with the same brush.

To the lay person £350 sounds a lot of money for a kitten and the breeder has to be making money, which anyone who does breed properly knows is definitely not the case, but the more breeders around advertising kittens in excess of £1000 and still calling themselves hobby breeders are ultimately going to affect the rest of us.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> To the lay person £350 sounds a lot of money for a kitten and the breeder has to be making money, which anyone who does breed properly knows is definitely not the case, but the more breeders around advertising kittens in excess of £1000 and still calling themselves hobby breeders are ultimately going to affect the rest of us.


Agreed, I feel for many the tag "hobby" is just a joke.


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## Kalipha (Jul 15, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Agreed, I feel for many the tag "hobby" is just a joke.


Yes and no. There are probably far more people that go into it thinking they're going to make money then get a nasty shock and give up. I doubt very many at all are *actually* making money out of it.


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Saikou said:


> I don't see how reducing the price could be seen as mean? Mean to whom ? Certainly not the cats they don't care. Any outlay involved with breeding is a personal choice. If a breeder chooses to import then thats to benefit their 'line' and if they show potentially give them an edge over the competition.
> 
> Those imported lines only benefit the gene pool if placed back into it and I can understand why the sale of an active cat from that import _may _ command a slightly higher price as the new owner would be 'benefiting' from those fresh lines, but where does that stop. The new owner paid a premium so they charge extra for their kitten so they do the same an so on and so on. Other breeders hear that £x is being charged they do the same. It seems accepting it as the norm is the problem.
> 
> ...


Sorry Saikou I think I have either mis-spelt or you have mis-interpretted what I said. I didn't mean, mean as in horrible just that surely it would be better for the breed if 'ALL' breeders prices were the same. Not sure if I am expalining this very well but hope that someone can 'see' what I mean


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> I would love for there to be a price drop on 'active' Bengals but as been said it would* mean *for everyone to club together to make this happen.


I understand:-
You said "it would "mean", breeders would need to club together."

Not "it would be "mean" for breeders to club together"


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Thank you Lauren, yes that's a better way to put it! Think my grammar must be shot to bits!!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ses6jwg said:


> All I do half of most working days as part of my job is look at online and offline adverts placed for kittens and cats.


What job do you do then ?



ses6jwg said:


> I can definitely see a need for a licensing regime with annual inspections and regulations placed on the breeding and sale of kittens, similar to the dog regime. This won't impact on reputable breeders as they will be abiding by the Animal Welfare Act anyway. OK so you may need to pay a fee of £150+ per year, to cover inspection costs, but at least it deters all these BYB which are growing more by the month.


I don't agree at all. No licensing system could be enforced, it won't stop bybs, unless the licensing inspectors sit on the internet reading every kitten advert, read every paper and card in shop windows. All that will do is screw the decent genuine hobby breeders to the wall, adding yet more expense, paper work and stress to an already expensive hobby.

If some outside authority wants to get involved then let them concentrate on those breeding unregistered kittens and leave breeders with registered prefixes to their registering bodies. Registering bodies could do a lot by putting defined limits on maybe number of actives kept, litters per year from each queen etc.

Any breeder bringing in a turn over of £10,000 is not a hobby breeder thats a business and should be licensed in the same way pet shos are. But where do you draw the line between defining a hobby breeder and a professional one ?


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Good points - as a real hobby breeder (one queen only) a £150 registartion fee a year would be an awful lot of money meaning I would NEED to breed more often to try to break even, and my breed is cheap compared to bengals (£375 pet, £450 active, and stud fees £100 - £150). Had I wanted to breed Benglas I would have just not done it - I wouldn't be able to convince hubby to part with the cash. He bulks at the Birman prices as it is but sees why it costs that much - and having had just the one litter of 2 recently he knows there is very little (if any) money in hobby breeding. I breed to get a show quality show stoipper and to better the breed, not to make money - though if that happened it would be nice. I don't think a regstration shceme would work at all - when did puppy farms go out of existance then? I think it would just drive byb underground more and make people more likely to go this route than do it properly.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

So whats the definition of a hobby breeder then ? I have 4 girls and 2 boys (my use only, no outside paying queens coming in), although 1 girl and boy are about to retire. I have over my breeding career so far had an average of 7 kittens per year, as my queens only have one litter a year each, sometimes longer as they are not mad callers. I can also say with absolute certainty that I am running at a loss. By your definition with 6 actives I should be licensed and inspected!!!

So what job do you do ?


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

ses6jwg said:


> There is no need to license hobby breeders - as with dogs if they only require licensing if they have 4 or more breeding bitches or have more than 4 litters a year? I cant remember exactly.
> 
> But its not illegal (even if it is immoral) to sell unregistered or unvaccinated kittens and its also not strictly illegal to "overbreed" a cat unless you can prove in a court of law that it is causing unneccessary suffering which in itself is a heck of a misson.


I don't see the point in penalising breeders who have 4 or more breeding Queens unless you're going to deal with the bigger problem of byb's.

I'd be all in favour of legislation that took the bigger picture into account but not one that I'd see as yet another money making scheme for the government\local authorities.

I guess at the end of the day the authorities do not really care that much about animal welfare (see today's paper where a woman in France got only 6 months for holding down a dog while petrol was poored over it and set alight!). All they really care about is money.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ses6jwg said:


> They cannot be licensed like a pet shop as the Pet Animals Act 1951 precludes those who breed from "their own personal ore family pet pedigree stock" from being classed as a pet shop.


I am aware of that act and its definition and wasn't refering to that specific act. You are calling for licensing, I am saying aim that at professional breeders pulling in a profit, in the same way that pet shops selling animals are licensed!


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ses6jwg said:


> That is not down to me to decide to be honest, I just do the research.


Research for what, and in what capacity?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Oh right, to what end ?


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

ses6jwg said:


> I am researching the extent of cat breeding in one area, just pulling in data really, how many breeders, most popular breeds, breeding activity, potential issues, pet shop suppliers etc.


A spy in our midst, how exciting 

I didn't mean to imply that all beuraucrats were uncaring but it does come across that way when we continually see people getting trivial sentences for animal cruelty while loving owners seem to be bled dry because they care.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

You said its part of your job, so you are not doing this purely out of your own interest. So what's your job ? If you are using this site to collate breeders knowledge/opinions etc then you should be honest about what you are doing!


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I would love to know your job too?


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

ses6jwg said:


> Can I also just add I am not here to provoke people, but its good to hear views from people on this. From my research there is clearly a problem with regards to some cat breeders and would love to hear everybodys views and suggestions as to how this can be tackled.


Any issues with breeders using a registered prefix should be addressed by the registering body they are affiliated to, it's no other organisation's business.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Still being cagey about your job though  especially seeing as you were the one who bought it up in the first place :smilewinkgrin:


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

but why? ?


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> but why? ?


Why what?

Surely all kinds of people gather information and most of the time nothing is ever done with it


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmstar said:


> Why what?
> 
> Surely all kinds of people gather information and most of the time nothing is ever done with it


sorry i just wondered


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Wow what a debate this has turned into!

I must admit it drives me mad to see some of the adverts on Preloved, I don't know why I put myself through it but I just wish there was something that could be done to stop it.

I work for the RSPCA also so see a lot of awful things in animal welfare and it makes you sick to think of the awful people doing this.

Just a few weeks ago I spoke to a lady who was breeding her cats and called us after 4 kittens she bred died suddenly.

On further investiagtion we found out that the kittens died from FELV which the mother had and it ended up with 3 of her cats being put to sleep 

What really annoyed me was that she was deliberately breeding these cats and letting her females go onto the farm and get pregnant by ferals wandering locally, selling the kittens and reaping in the money and yet she asked the RSPCA to pay for the testing and euthanasia in this situation.

As she was claiming benifits we paid it as that's what our policies tell us to do 

I would not be surprised if she goes and gets some new cats to start this all over again but as long as they are fed there is not a lot we can do to stop this.

Oh and to add these are not moggies were talking about, she had 2 Bengals and a Ragdoll all of which were PTS.

Sadly I cannot see what can be done. The RSPCA don't cover breeding ethics and the registration bodies simply register.

I do think organisations such as the GCCF need to be more strict on what they register, like a previous poster said, maximum number of litters etc.

But the BYB's will simply stop registering litters so I doubt it will stop them.

The only way is to be VERY careful who we sell our kittens to and try and educate as many kitten buyers as possible to the problems out there.

If there is no market for these kittens the breeding will soon stop but as my mother always says ' a fool and his money are easilly parted '


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Cat_Crazy said:


> As she was claiming benifits we paid it as that's what our policies tell us to do


That's an absolute disgrace and must be so hard to deal with! :cursing: I must say I admire you because I just couldn't do it.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Believe me there has been sooooo nay times that I have wanted to F and blind down the phone!!

We have just brought two kittens into care after their owner bred the mother hoping to sell the kittens, the tabby ones sold well but the two black and white one's didn't.

Anyway she called me last Thursday saying I am going on holiday on Saturday and these kittens need to go or I am chucking them out 

We went and picked them up to find that they were full of fleas, riddled with worms and only 6 weeks old !!

Why did she breed her cat knowing she was going on holiday and knowing that she would not keep them if they did not sell??

Of course I have to grit my teeth but I was so angry at her.

Thankfully the lovely little kittens now have a home and once their vaccinations are done will be collected.

People like this should be banned from owning animals.

The bit that upset me was we had to leave mum their, still un-neutered and proberly also full of fleas and worms because we did not have permisison to treat her


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I feel that those who are making a business out of producing kittens need regulated. I think anyone who is mass-producing animals should be investigated both from a welfare point of view and as a financial concern.
10+ breeding queens of whatever breed including moggies in a back yard, producing litters regularly for public sale is a business and as such should be under some form of scrutiny.

The ads are full of people "producing", whether registered or non-registered, both classes of breeders would ultimately benefit and I know a lot of cats would benefit from some form of regulation. The GCCF has very little power and those who breed under them are in the minority. For a fee it is possible for anyone, anywhere to register kittens so it is not a guarantee of the quality of the breeder at all. I could have 30 cats in tiny cages and register the progeny with them, they would not be any the wiser.

Cat breeding especially of the more popular expensive breeds like the Bengal can be a nice little earner with no thought for the lives of the poor animals concerned.
Sometimes in breeding circles, practises are followed which to those not in the "industry" find not particularly pleasant. Someone once said to me "oh battery farming of cats" in reference to a breeder's pens. They were large pens but to a lay person who is used to cats being in houses or having a free roaming life that is how he saw it - he may of had a point.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Believe me there has been sooooo nay times that I have wanted to F and blind down the phone!!
> 
> We have just brought two kittens into care after their owner bred the mother hoping to sell the kittens, the tabby ones sold well but the two black and white one's didn't.
> 
> ...


couldn't do your job  must be awful xx


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

There are other registries, not just the GCCF there's TICA and FIFE. From what I can see the GCCF is probably stricter than most. It wouldn't take alot to restrict numbers of queens and/or litters, although with the latter they would also be restricting their income, but all registries would have to agree to adopt the same rules. The idea of a max kitten price should be instigate too.

I am sure that all registries have seen a down turn in the numbers of kittens being registered. When you have individuals breeding unregistered kittens and selling them for just a bit less than a registered kitten then where is the incentive to register your kittens and be beholden by that registries rules. No easy answer, and it depends wholly on the reason the individual is breeding in the first place. From a welfare point of view though, there is no difference, the unregistered kitten could be just as healthy and well taken care of as the registered one.

To me its quite simple, the aim of any breeder should be to breed healthy, happy, well socialised kittens who can bring years of happiness to their new families. Those kittens should ideally go out fully vaccinated etc. That applies to anyone breeding moggies, crossbreeds or pedigrees. The cats and kittens health and welfare should be paramount to their owners whether they are entire or neutered.

Maybe the registering bodies should start to allow moggie breeders to have Prefixes and register their kittens too, not from a pedigree point of view but as a way of stating I am taking breeding seriously and agree to abide by the registries rules for health and welfare (which should be beefed up by all registries).

I think it would be a sad world if there were no more moggies/cross breeds around.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Saikou said:


> Maybe the registering bodies should start to allow moggie breeders to have Prefixes and register their kittens too, not from a pedigree point of view but as a way of stating I am taking breeding seriously and agree to abide by the registries rules for health and welfare (which should be beefed up by all registries).


I think this is already possible with TICA, having looked at their Household Pet registration. I have a GCCF prefix, long unused, but for me to join TICA and get a prefix, just to register a litter of 6 moggy kittens wouldn't be worth it as I don't plan to breed any more moggies.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Maybe the registering bodies should start to allow moggie breeders to have Prefixes and register their kittens too, not from a pedigree point of view but as a way of stating I am taking breeding seriously and agree to abide by the registries rules for health and welfare (which should be beefed up by all registries).


As far as moggie and crossbreed breeders and those who breed without papers, the GCCF is nothing really.
Whether they have a bit of paper to say the Moggie X bred to Moggie Y produced A,B,C and D is neither here nor there.

I think this practise of being able to sell kittens unvaccinated at 6-8 weeks should be tightened up on and stopped. No matter what their parentage, if all kittens advertised and sold were to be seen and vaccinated by a proper vet then that would stop many from breeding in an instant, I feel.


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> As far as moggie and crossbreed breeders and those who breed without papers, the GCCF is nothing really.
> Whether they have a bit of paper to say the Moggie X bred to Moggie Y produced A,B,C and D is neither here nor there.
> 
> I think this practise of being able to sell kittens unvaccinated at 6-8 weeks should be tightened up on and stopped. No matter what their parentage, if all kittens advertised and sold were to be seen and vaccinated by a proper vet then that would stop many from breeding in an instant, I feel.


As I said, it wouldn't be for the pedigree ie parental register, it would be to say they agreed to breed under a certain code of ethics. Its then a case of buyer beware, choose to buy a kitten where the breeder is breeding to a code of ethics or not. If TICA already have the practice then it has to be workable in some form. Anyone 'breeder' not choosing to register their kittens are then open to some sort of scrutiny by another authority, whom ever that may be.

Lots of moggie breeders on here,wanting to do things "properly". Same as a pedigree breeder, they wouldn't have to buy a prefix, but could just register their litters agreeing to the code of ethics for that particular governing body.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Anyway she called me last Thursday saying I am going on holiday on Saturday and these kittens need to go or I am chucking them out


What a charmer! What did she do with Mum?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> I think this is already possible with TICA, having looked at their Household Pet registration. I have a GCCF prefix, long unused, but for me to join TICA and get a prefix, just to register a litter of 6 moggy kittens wouldn't be worth it as I don't plan to breed any more moggies.


I think you can register moggies with GCCF. You can certainly register half-pedigrees.

Liz


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lizward said:


> I think you can register moggies with GCCF. You can certainly register half-pedigrees.


But there wouldn't be any point to that, really... it couldn't be used as a selling point, I couldn't justify adding the cost of registration to the sale price, and I doubt the owners would bother to transfer.... meaning they would not be bound by GCCF regs & rules.

I will get them chipped though, and happily absorb that cost if necessary. If the new owners don't get the chip transferred and the cat ends up in rescue I'd like to know!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lizward said:


> I think you can register moggies with GCCF. You can certainly register half-pedigrees.
> 
> Liz


To be honest I dont think the type of people I think we are talking about care enough to do that do they?

Mind you I did visit a breeder of pedigree cats and My mind still wanders back to it as it is what put me off of buying for about 18months, it wasa VERY small room with 2 very small cages, but ceiling height, a tiny play area outside of them if they were let out and 3 litters of kittens, differet ages with mums and some older cats.

Covered in fleas, she told me that they were too young to be treated, 6 weeks & 12 weeks old! They couldnt have been handled much as they were so frightened  They were ripping up everything in site jumping up the windows with some sort of netting/wire on them!?

She made up some rubbish about needing to move quick so reduce the price...this was, god, about 3/4years back now and she is still here in the same house breeding!

Ive seen better kept moggies than that.

That said good and bad both in moggie/cross breed/pedigree worlds.

Also my sisters friend is looking for a cat a little moggie as she doesnt want to spend alto, which is fine, so my sister put her onto me as she doesnt know alot about cats what to ask breeders etc, so She asked if I would go and visit some cats with her and I jumped at the Chance!

So off we go, pouring with rain and Freezing! We turn up at this House, now it is obvious that these people aren't short of a Bob or two, brand new range rover, brand new merc & Stunning giant house with Fields and horses and dogs etc.

So we expect to be invited in as no cattery's outside, but the lady said over here, so we follow her to a TINY shed, inside with wood around them, say 2-3ft by 2-3ft sit 8 tiny kits, she said 8 weeks Im saying about 6. they had a red light but it was freezing, we pick them up they are shaking like mad and dirty eyes and their tummys were So huge I asked about worms and she said yes...but didnt know the name of it, Ive seen kits with worms before (not my own thank god!)

I said can I see mum & dad? She said dunno they are here somewhere!! None of them live indoors all live free range on her land!!!

And she then says if you dont like them I have more! So off we went to another tiny shed inside 3 litters with 3 mums! tiny little kits very dirty conditions, again mums were out roaming with the boys.

And I jsut said to my sis mate oh we have other litters to see remember! so we could leave!!

Those are the type of people who make me mad! Those poor kits the reason for not spaying them? I wont even repeat it as its one of the most absurd things Ive heard in my life!

As long as its done properly like health testing vet visits etc then breed them but doing it properly costs more money so no 'profit' left, and these type of people just wont do it.

Even my partner, bless him was saying that 'no they should be indoors playing, socializing and getting hugs, not outside with no on!' Also the people buying them must be crazy to? Surely they cant think that that is normal living conditions for a kitten?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> But there wouldn't be any point to that, really... it couldn't be used as a selling point


O I agree, quite pointless.

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> But there wouldn't be any point to that, really... it couldn't be used as a selling point


You could place the same argument for pedigrees. If a breeder has no intention of selling kittens for show, or showing themselves and only sell to pet buyers or breeders of like mind why register?

The number of unregistered pedigrees out there, being sold for high prices proving there is a market, surely says that "registered with the GCCF/FIFE/TICA" on the kitten advert means very little to the buyer.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Saikou said:


> The number of unregistered pedigrees out there, being sold for high prices proving there is a market, surely says that "registered with the GCCF/FIFE/TICA" on the kitten advert means very little to the buyer.


I think that seems to be true. Breeders are obsessed by pedigrees and shows and registration but it all means diddly squat to many pet owners. 
The fact that they may have a Bengal with four white feet (rare) or a shorthaired Maine Coon (even rarer), means little when they see those kitten eyes and it is love at first sight or they have been so lucky to get a bargain "Siamese" for £100.

Many just want the pedigree "tag", so they don't need the paperwork, they want a pedigree but feel that the difference between a registered one and an unregistered one is only "a piece of paper". Also, it is enough for some that there is some hint of a pedigree there. "His mum was a Persian cross" or "his dad is a Ragdoll" is enough.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> To be honest I dont think the type of people I think we are talking about care enough to do that do they?
> 
> Mind you I did visit a breeder of pedigree cats and My mind still wanders back to it as it is what put me off of buying for about 18months, it wasa VERY small room with 2 very small cages, but ceiling height, a tiny play area outside of them if they were let out and 3 litters of kittens, differet ages with mums and some older cats.
> 
> ...


I visited somewhere like this. Thankfully 2/3 months down the line she has given up. Sold all breeding cats (very cheaply) and all I can say is thank goodness she has stopped.

I did think of reporting her as she is GCCF registered, thankfully I was well warned about buying a kitten from her as she was had a bit of a name for herself. I did however exchange some words with her as I had been told her GCCF pre-fix had been transferred to her sons name.

Thankfully she has stopped now.  I hope.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I feel sometimes too that is is only "a piece of paper". 
Mellowma's example of a GCCF registered breeder and Taylorbaby's example of an unregistered moggie breeder had a lot in common which is actually very worrying.


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