# Need help with sick goldfish please. Lump, Scales protruding, Hemorrhaging.



## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

Behaving normally, but hemorrhages appear and disappear throughout the day. Lump on one side has rapidly grown, appeared less than a fortnight ago. Today scales around lump sticking out and hemorrhages have appeared at the base of the scales.


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## George Duke-Cohan (Mar 17, 2020)

Hello,
Sorry to hear about this. I sadly am not experienced with good fish but I am sure @LinznMilly can offer support. 
Hope the fish gets better.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Hi, sorry to hear about your fish. I'm no goldfish expert myself, but to help those who may be able to offer advice, it would be helpful to have some more info.
- What size is the tank?
- How many fish?
- How long have you had them, and was the tank cycled (i.e. a fishless cycle with ammonia) before adding the fish?
- Have you done any water tests, and what are the results?
- Have you been treating with anything?


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

Thank you,

- The tank is 100 liters, set up about 2-3 years ago.
- I used ammonia for a fishless cycle.
- I have one fish, he's about 10 years old I think.
- Water parameters are: PH 6.6, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 5

I'm terrified to start treating him because I don't know what I'm doing, or what is wrong with him.

He looks worse today, i'm worried he could be "pine coning"


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> Thank you,
> 
> - The tank is 100 liters, set up about 2-3 years ago.
> - I used ammonia for a fishless cycle.
> ...


Hi.

He's not pineconing.

A 10 year old goldfish in a 100 litre tank will be seriously stunted by now. Technically, comets (single-tailed goldfish) are technically pond fish because they're a member of the carp family.

People often think goldfish only grow to the size of their tanks, but that's not true. What happens is, pheromones in their water send signals to the fish that they're running out of space, so the fish appear to stop growing, but their insides do not, so I wonder if what you're seeing is an effect of stunted growth?

And I'm a bit suspicious of that nitrate reading. What test kit are you using?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Again I have no direct experience, but I found this article that might be of some help: https://www.thesprucepets.com/ulcers-in-freshwater-fish-4802382

@LinznMilly Do you think treatment with Melafix might help in the short term? I agree with you that the fish should ideally be in a pond, but even if the OP has a suitable pond available, this probably isn't a great time of year to move him, am I right?


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Hi.
> 
> He's not pineconing.
> 
> ...


I thought I had him in quite a large tank for his size, I'm going to look into building him a pond. Are there any websites you can recommend as it really sounds quite daunting, I'm not even sure if I would be allowed to build a pond and my house is far too small to fit an even larger tank. I'm worried to give him away to someone with more space because they might cull him. I have included a picture of the test from yesterday, i'm using the api master test kit.


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

NaomiM said:


> Again I have no direct experience, but I found this article that might be of some help:
> 
> @LinznMilly Do you think treatment with Melafix might help in the short term? I agree with you that the fish should ideally be in a pond, but even if the OP has a suitable pond available, this probably isn't a great time of year to move him, am I right?


Thank you for the link, it doesn't look like an ulcer to me, there is no open wound. Do you think the lump might develop into an ulcer? People in other forums have suggested salt and eSHa 2000, so I have dosed the tank with salt (1 tbsp per 19L). I'm terrified to do so but I think I need to do a concentrated salt bath today. I'm also doing daily 30% water changes, and I ordered eSHa exit to try alongside eSHa 2000.


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

As a side note I don't think it has anything to do with it, but I have been spraying my plants with neem oil in the same room. Would he present like this if it were neem oil poisoning?


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> Thank you for the link, it doesn't look like an ulcer to me, there is no open wound. Do you think the lump might develop into an ulcer? People in other forums have suggested salt and eSHa 2000, so I have dosed the tank with salt (1 tbsp per 19L). I'm terrified to do so but I think I need to do a concentrated salt bath today. I'm also doing daily 30% water changes, and I ordered eSHa exit to try alongside eSHa 2000.


Esha 2000, Exit and tonic salts are mild enough for you to try. Just increase the aeration in the tank because everything that you add hits the gills..



NaomiM said:


> even if the OP has a suitable pond available, this probably isn't a great time of year to move him, am I right?


Yes, you're right. Ideal time to move a fish from a tank to a pond would be Spring or early Summer.



Mrspanda said:


> I'm also doing daily 30% water changes


How long have you been doing them? Because that could explain the low nitrate level.

Have you been spraying the neem oil anywhere near his tank?


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Mrspanda said:


> I have dosed the tank with salt (1 tbsp per 19L)


Just checking that you're using specialised aquarium salt and not table salt? (Hopefully this is obvious but just wanted to check!) This was going to be my next suggestion if the melafix was no good.


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Esha 2000, Exit and tonic salts are mild enough for you to try. Just increase the aeration in the tank because everything that you add hits the gills..
> 
> Yes, you're right. Ideal time to move a fish from a tank to a pond would be Spring or early Summer.
> 
> ...


I could also try Methylene blue, Melafix, or Interpet Anti Bacteria Aquarium Fish Treatment, i'm not sure what would be more effective. He is looking worse still today, he is starting to swell up more and pinecone on the other side of his body. It's looking really bad I don't know if he will survive. I started the 30% water changes yesterday, the day before that I did 20% and a few days before that 50%.



NaomiM said:


> Just checking that you're using specialised aquarium salt and not table salt? (Hopefully this is obvious but just wanted to check!) This was going to be my next suggestion if the melafix was no good.


Yes I have been using api aquarium salt, but I have read epsom salt is supposed to be more effective so I have ordered some of that.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> I could also try Methylene blue, Melafix, or Interpet Anti Bacteria Aquarium Fish Treatment, i'm not sure what would be more effective. He is looking worse still today, he is starting to swell up more and pinecone on the other side of his body. It's looking really bad I don't know if he will survive. I started the 30% water changes yesterday, the day before that I did 20% and a few days before that 50%.
> 
> Yes I have been using api aquarium salt, but I have read epsom salt is supposed to be more effective so I have ordered some of that.


Stick with the API salt and eSHA 2000/Exit - especially if you've already started. What's his poop like? (Rather disgusting question, but it could help nail it if it's a bacterial or parasitic infection).

Dropsy (which causes the pineconing effect), is a symptom, rather than an actual disease in itself.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Mrspanda said:


> I have read epsom salt is supposed to be more effective


Epsom salt is used to treat constipation, not infection. As @LinznMilly says, I think aquarium salt is likely to be a better option than Epsom salt in this situation - UNLESS he's not been pooing.


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Stick with the API salt and eSHA 2000/Exit - especially if you've already started. What's his poop like? (Rather disgusting question, but it could help nail it if it's a bacterial or parasitic infection).
> 
> Dropsy (which causes the pineconing effect), is a symptom, rather than an actual disease in itself.





NaomiM said:


> Epsom salt is used to treat constipation, not infection. As @LinznMilly says, I think aquarium salt is likely to be a better option than Epsom salt in this situation - UNLESS he's not been pooing.


I will stick with aquarium salt thank you for letting me know. I haven't started using eSHa yet, it arrived yesterday and when I read the leaflet I realized you can't use de-chlorinator with it. I will start it today when it has been 24hrs since the last water change. I think his poop is fine, it's dark green and normal in shape/ size. I have been feeding him peas exclusively for the past few days. Oh I see, so it would be more accurate to say his scales are protruding rather than pine coning? I have increased the salt in his tank to 3ppt (300g per 100L) which seems to be what most people recommend. It seems like a lot though, I hope it's not too much? I was wondering if I should give him an Epsom salt dip to ease the swelling, because he does seem to be a bit swollen up.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> I will stick with aquarium salt thank you for letting me know. I haven't started using eSHa yet, it arrived yesterday and when I read the leaflet I realized you can't use de-chlorinator with it. I will start it today when it has been 24hrs since the last water change. I think his poop is fine, it's dark green and normal in shape/ size. I have been feeding him peas exclusively for the past few days. Oh I see, so it would be more accurate to say his scales are protruding rather than pine coning? I have increased the salt in his tank to 3ppt (300g per 100L) which seems to be what most people recommend. It seems like a lot though, I hope it's not too much? I was wondering if I should give him an Epsom salt dip to ease the swelling, because he does seem to be a bit swollen up.


Normal poop rules out bacterial and parasitic infection as well as constipation.

Goldfish are quite salt tolerant, so 3ppt shouldn't be too much of a problem for him, especially as it's short term, but keep an eye on him anyway, and if he seems to be in difficulty, do an emergency 50% water change (and half the amount of salt you add to the tank):
Salinity Tolerance of Goldfish


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

I just noticed some pale green poop at the bottom of the tank, is it something to worry about do you think? It looks almost the same colour as peas so it could be that.


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> Normal poop rules out bacterial and parasitic infection as well as constipation.
> 
> Goldfish are quite salt tolerant, so 3ppt shouldn't be too much of a problem for him, especially as it's short term, but keep an eye on him anyway, and if he seems to be in difficulty, do an emergency 50% water change (and half the amount of salt you add to the tank):
> Salinity Tolerance of Goldfish


There are little white dots poking out from the lump now and I see some white dots floating around in the water.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> There are little white dots poking out from the lump now and I see some white dots floating around in the water.
> View attachment 478358
> View attachment 478359


You did fully dissolve the salt in the water before adding it to the tank, didn't you?


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> You did fully dissolve the salt in the water before adding it to the tank, didn't you?


Yes I made sure of it, why?


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

It looks like it could be puss to me


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> Yes I made sure of it, why?


I was wondering if it was salt crystals. Just grasping at straws, really, because I've never seen anything like that. Internet's drawing a blank, too.


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

LinznMilly said:


> I was wondering if it was salt crystals. Just grasping at straws, really, because I've never seen anything like that. Internet's drawing a blank, too.


I'm really starting to think it is some kind of cyst, the white stuff appears to be coming out and falling off in the water. I'll keep researching.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> I'm really starting to think it is some kind of cyst, the white stuff appears to be coming out and falling off in the water. I'll keep researching.


That sounds like whitespot. But the cysts look quite big to be whitespot.


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## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

It doesn't look like whitespot, but like you I'm not sure what else it could be. Only other possibility I found was something called dermocystidium, but no idea whether it would look like this or not, so might be completely grasping at straws. https://fishdoc.co.uk/dermocystidium-an-uncommon-fish-disease/


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

Update: There is still stuff coming out of the lump. He seems tired now, he is lying at the bottom of the tank more. His poops are now are thin and translucent in some areas.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> Update: There is still stuff coming out of the lump. He seems tired now, he is lying at the bottom of the tank more. His poops are now are thin and translucent in some areas.


That's indicative of internal parasites. And he's stressed, not tired.

Do a 50% water change and increase aeration. What (if any) meds are you using?


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## Mrspanda (Mar 26, 2018)

I have a marina 200 which has a double outlet output: 2X110 L per Hour /2X1800cc/min. I also have a hob filter (tidal 120) which aerates the water. I think if I aerate the tank any more it will create too much movement in the water. I have a spare air pump though if you think it is necessary.

I am treating with eSHa 2000 and it says not to change the water, the parameters were perfect yesterday morning (all 0s). Tomorrow morning when the treatment is finished, I will do a big water change.

What should I use to treat internal parasites? I have Melafix and eSHa Exit to hand.

I have also noticed a slimly film growing on the air stone


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Mrspanda said:


> I have a marina 200 which has a double outlet output: 2X110 L per Hour /2X1800cc/min. I also have a hob filter (tidal 120) which aerates the water. I think if I aerate the tank any more it will create too much movement in the water. I have a spare air pump though if you think it is necessary.
> 
> I am treating with eSHa 2000 and it says not to change the water, the parameters were perfect yesterday morning (all 0s). Tomorrow morning when the treatment is finished, I will do a big water change.
> 
> ...


Hi @Mrspanda , sorry I missed this update. How is he now?

The slimy film sounds like excess slime coat, which is a layer of mucus that coats the fish and is the fish's first line of defence against disease (a bit like our skin). When fish get sick or stressed, they produce more slime coat in response, which can then slouch off. That's probably what you're seeing.

Neither of those treatments is going to hit internal parasites. You'll want something like [email protected]
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parasite-T...p/B012WKCRTM/ref=psdc_471518031_t2_B000S5L55G


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