# Sticky for Pregnant Moggies: Round 2



## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

After a generally negative outlook when I suggested a thread to be stickied dealing with the issues around and involving moggie pregnancy I eventually ended up gathering info to do this myself although there has been an offer of help from another member who is currently busy. In another thread it was hinted that this is already being written by someone else. As it will be public eventually, may I enquire as to who is doing it? I would love to offer my assistance in this project as it's something that I feel will be strongly beneficial. Thanks!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I'll help you all I can once I have my degree work submitted (May 5th - getting frighteningly close  )

Liz


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

after reading the other comments such as 'moggie breeding it will happen get over it' etc

maybe there isnt much point? Ive already written a thread about neutering, but obviously no one reads it lol!


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Aye liz you were who I was referring to  It appears someone else has taken it upon themselves and I'm curious as to who it is and to whether they would accept assistance. Good luck with your work


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> after reading the other comments such as 'moggie breeding it will happen get over it' etc
> 
> maybe there isnt much point? Ive already written a thread about neutering, but obviously no one reads it lol!


I think the problem is that they are beyond the point of neutering really when they come here, most come when their cats are 6+ weeks pregnant and already know they are keeping them. This doesn't mean that neutering won't be very much involved in the thread  Well, dpeending on who comes out with the finished product I guess!


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## Gil3987 (Aug 1, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> maybe there isnt much point? Ive already written a thread about neutering, but obviously no one reads it lol!


I read it lol and we will absolutely be getting ours done 

Gill x


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Gil3987 said:


> I read it lol and we will absolutely be getting ours done
> 
> Gill x


aww thanks  After talking to our kitten new owners we send them that plus 2 other emails, with how our kittens are raised, food & toys, then FAQ's which details everything you ever need to know lol  took me a good few months to do it adding to it along the way, everyone likes it though lol kitten bible!! :lol:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Gratch said:


> Good luck with your work


Thank you - the more I do the more there still seems to be to do aaaagh!

Liz


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

I really dont see any point! Sorry.

Not like newbies who come on for "advice" look through stick threads, they just post their own. Then run when it doesnt go their way OR stick around and fling poo.....

Gratch you are one of a few who admitted fault, and stuck around. Many dont because they think its fine because their is a market for moggies the issue is the market is full!

Reminds me of a poem I wrote yesterday.....



> Where I am the floor is cold.
> I am not even 1 year old.
> My breeder let her moggie out to breed.
> Because they wanted money, not need.
> ...


Granted not all breed for money....some breed for cute kittens others accidently but keep the kittens. But you get the drift.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I really dont see any point! Sorry.
> 
> Not like newbies who come on for "advice" look through stick threads, they just post their own. Then run when it doesnt go their way OR stick around and fling poo.....
> 
> ...


Aye, but someone else is already doing it  I still personally agree with it and will be going ahead either way, thankfully with the support of lizward when she has time but 3 heads are better than one or however many people are involved already in it. Again I just want to offer my assistance as I felt so strongly about it I would hate to be left out of the project!


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Wow, Liz, that's getting mighty close. Good luck!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Well if someone else is giving it a go run they're certainly not coming forward here. Maybe they feel they have sufficient knowledge to write it alone. I'm sure they do, it's mostly common sense and responsibility. 

I don't think it needs to be a giant group task. There are views and opinions and then there are facts. As long as the facts go in, I'm happy. I know the majority of people will be happier with this mystery writer. 

The right people should write it. Not just those who decide they want to, in my opinion. It's too much of an important subject to let amateurs and people who hold emotional views, which are fine on their own, but are at against what others hold to be true. I wouldn't support the thread unless I agreed 100% with what was written.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Maybe rather that focussing on Moggies why not do a post on the issues of breeding, the risks, the health tests, blood types, what you should do every step of the way of the pregnancy, what you should do during the birth, experiences of when things go wrong, hands on advice.

Choosing a stud

Then you could discuss the rescue situation and tie in the "Cat suitable to be bred from"

If you don't aim it at specifically moggies, but at the general cat breeding issues its more likely to be stickied and less likely to cause friction


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well if someone else is giving it a go run they're certainly not coming forward here. Maybe they feel they have sufficient knowledge to write it alone. I'm sure they do, it's mostly common sense and responsibility.
> 
> I don't think it needs to be a giant group task. There are views and opinions and then there are facts. As long as the facts go in, I'm happy. I know the majority of people will be happier with this mystery writer.
> 
> The right people should write it. Not just those who decide they want to, in my opinion. It's too much of an important subject to let amateurs and people who hold emotional views, which are fine on their own, but are at against what others hold to be true. I wouldn't support the thread unless I agreed 100% with what was written.


I agree. If its wrote by someone who believes spaying a pregnant cat is "murder" then can it be un-biest about the situation?

Many people who come on the forum have pregnant cats that are still at a stage were spaying is possible. And I know many people who didnt know vets could spay while pregnant.


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## Gratch (Aug 22, 2010)

And I have a terrible feeling it will be subjective rather than objective which I feel will be confirmed if the other person doesn't wish to come forward. As far as I'm concerned though, it was my brainchild and it is something I would like to see written in the right tone, not condoning but not crucifying either. Anyway, work from 2pm - 10pm, hopefully this will still be here when I'm back.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

I know it sounds daft but if it was up to me I would appoint Aurelia to write it.
Shes level headed about spaying and I have also seen some fantastic advice given by her once pregnancy is to far along for spaying. 

Yes she is very full on about the rights and wrongs of breeding from not only moggies but unethical breeding. But I also cant think of anyone better. She has a modern outlook not a dated one, nor does she compare human pregnancy and animal pregnancy. 

I also agree with Tanya, a complete guide to cat breeding is a good idea. A thread just aimed at moggie breeding may:

1) get over looked.
2) give the wrong impression that moggie breeding is a good thing and should be done plenty. 

I also think that the thread itself should be linked up with Taylors spaying thread.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Maybe rather that focussing on Moggies why not do a post on the issues of breeding, the risks, the health tests, blood types, what you should do every step of the way of the pregnancy, what you should do during the birth, experiences of when things go wrong, hands on advice.
> 
> Choosing a stud
> 
> ...


I think I agree, Tanya. But I seem to recall that Gratch wanted to pull it together very much for the moggie owner in mind. I'll have to paraphrase a previous post of Gratch's but it went something like - The why's and wherefore's of why you should spay your cat. You haven't spayed your cat and it's been let out accidentally and mated? Then read on... your vet will still perform a very early (possible) pregnancy spay. You don't want to do that? OK, well, read on, here's what you need to do.

It seems to me to be making a very clear distinction between the responsibilities of the (ethical) pedigree breeder and those with the accidentally (or intentionally) pregnant moggie. I think a lot of the more experienced breeders/pet owners here are, rightly or wrongly, reluctant to contribute because they feel it condones what they believe to be a long string of needless (in this day and age) irresponsible actions up to the point where the cat is half way to having its kittens.

But I do applaud Gratch for her tenacity in wanting to get it done and I do genuinely hope that the result is put to good use as a sticky if its written in the 'right' way. But the 'right' way is so subjective which is why I think poor Gratch is getting an ear bashing


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I don't agree that having an idea makes you qualified to write it or even judge who can and can't write it.

I feel there are many people much better placed to write it, and if they choose to write it, I will support it.

The stickies are there to send people to for information, and the authors are seen as authority figures. Based on previous posts I would not be comfortable with a sticky authored by you, though I doubt a moggy breeding sticky will happen.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Am I right in thinking that the OP had an "oops litter" with a Moggie? Maybe she could team up with an experienced breeder (who knows the science and medicine behind it all) and write something together. 

If I was right in thinking she had an oops litter then she will have the valid information about that affected her eg the ear bashing I'm sure she will have got, the fact that she would have no idea if the kittens were on target, the risks she had with unknown blood grouping, Cat STDs, any difficulties selling moggy kittens or ensuring that they cannot be bred from in the future by their new owners, taking liability for any genetic problems which may occur etc etc


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Tanya: not just an oops litter, but a continued disregard for advice since then, hence my disdain.

The sticky should say weigh everyday for first 8 weeks (or something like that, I dont breed) so someone reading it will look, possibly at Gratchs old posts and see she stopped weighing at 1.5 weeks as it stressed her too much...

I would have no respect for the advice given in such a sticky if the OP itself did not abide by the advice, hence wanting a responsible person to write it if it did ever come about. Surely as s mod you can see the issue with a sticky dishing out advice which is contradicted by the ops actions??


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Am I right in thinking that the OP had an "oops litter" with a Moggie? Maybe she could team up with an experienced breeder (who knows the science and medicine behind it all) and write something together.
> 
> If I was right in thinking she had an oops litter then she will have the valid information about that affected her eg the ear bashing I'm sure she will have got, the fact that she would have no idea if the kittens were on target, the risks she had with unknown blood grouping, Cat STDs, any difficulties selling moggy kittens or ensuring that they cannot be bred from in the future by their new owners, taking liability for any genetic problems which may occur etc etc


That's pretty much it, with the addition of what the poster below has said. It's all been quite contentious unfortunately.

I know Gratch has her own experience to relate and I believe she has been offered assistance by at least one other experienced breeder here. I think the concern of a lot of people is that the very pertinent concerns and points (for any 'breeder', moggie or ped) that you've mentioned in your second para won't be addressed because most of those very points aren't considered risk factors with moggies by the one breeder who, thus far, has offered to help Gratch.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Tanya: not just an oops litter, but a continued disregard for advice since then, hence my disdain.
> 
> The sticky should say weigh everyday for first 8 weeks (or something like that, I dont breed) so someone reading it will look, possibly at Gratchs old posts and see she stopped weighing at 1.5 weeks as it stressed her too much...
> 
> I would have no respect for the advice given in such a sticky if the OP itself did not abide by the advice, hence wanting a responsible person to write it if it did ever come about. Surely as s mod you can see the issue with a sticky dishing out advice which is contradicted by the ops actions??


Then this could be used to explain the risks, why she chose not to, any problems that incurred with it (eg worming), weight dropping and not knowing until too late.

*Obviously a post wouldn't be made a sticky if it was inaccurate*, but it shouldn't matter who the post is from or what the poster has previously done as long as it is sound advice and all the more experienced people can vouch that it is sound advice then I see no problem what the OPs name is.

I'm not saying that the post will be made a sticky. Most posts are wrote then become a sticky because they are deemed useful and accurate. There's no harm in writing one, if its no good then it won't be promoted.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> That's pretty much it, with the addition of what the poster below has said. It's all been quite contentious unfortunately.


Who has now become the poster ABOVE by the time I got that typed and sent


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I don't see the reason why someone who has continually ignored advice writing it. If she ignored others advice, why shouldn't people ignore hers. Why so keen and excited to write a post, which if it had been written before she came to the forum, she'd likely have ignored anyway!

Would I listen to taylorbabys sticky on neutering if I read posts by her saying she didn't neuter her outdoor cats. Would I heck as like!

If it was one issue advice had been ignored on, I'd take the point, but it's way more. Plus I've never saw her saying anything negative about her choices, made against advice.


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

Just my two pennies worth, I think it's a good idea to have a sticky that a poster with a pregnant cat can be directed to when they come asking for help. Not because it's ever okay for people to be irresponsible, and I certainly hope that it wouldn't be written in a way that would _encourage _any breeding at _all_, but because it'll avoid anyone having to get in that same old discussion where they might lose their temper or run someone off the board before they've got the information that their cats need them to know.

Some people genuinely don't know much about cats, less still about having a litter, which is often why their cats get pregnant in the first place. Often they'll come somewhere like this when their cat gets pregnant before it even crosses their mind to talk to their vet.

The information they get should explain to them their choices, how to deal with the pregnancy, how to deal with the kittens, etc. of course - but it should also explain to them the importance/benefits of spaying and neutering, the fact that there aren't enough homes for the hundreds of thousands of cats already born, what happens to the kittens that can't find homes, and how quickly cats can produce more and more and more litters etc. etc.

I hope it'll make them feel responsible but in a gentle way, you know, so they feel informed and willing to change their ways for the greater good, rather than feeling attacked and leaving the forum before they've learned anything.

Hopefully it'll help a lot of cats. Nice one.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Peoples opinions change as their knowledge begins to grow, what I'm saying is: If she writes an excellent thread on breeding it can't, not be stickied, because of the name on the top of it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> I don't see the reason why someone who has continually ignored advice writing it. If she ignored others advice, why shouldn't people ignore hers. Why so keen and excited to write a post, which if it had been written before she came to the forum, she'd likely have ignored anyway!
> 
> Would I listen to taylorbabys sticky on neutering if I read posts by her saying she didn't neuter her outdoor cats. Would I heck as like!
> 
> If it was one issue advice had been ignored on, I'd take the point, but it's way more. Plus I've never saw her saying anything negative about her choices, made against advice.


I really don't disagree at all. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, especially where their starting point is good intent, but in all honesty if it is written with the tone and content that I'm fully expecting there will be so many members who would object to the content that it wouldn't have a hope of being made a sticky.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> Peoples opinions change as their knowledge begins to grow, what I'm saying is: If she writes an excellent thread on breeding it can't, not be stickied, because of the name on the top of it.


We will have to agree to disagree on this one. In my opinion it will make a mockery of the whole section, and I'm not alone in my thinking.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Oh my goodness. If only you could read the codwallop, snobbery and snideness contained within this thread.

"I wouldn't read it if X did it"
"I would only vote for it being a sticky if Y did it"

I mean this politely, but you all need to get over yourselves. Seriously!

This place is called "Pet Forums" - and it attracts people who own pets. That's P-E-T-S...pets. Pets come in all shapes and sizes...hamsters bought in Pets At Home...kittens from a friend or rescue...KC registered show quality dogs...they are all our pets!

If you want to chat exclusively about the world of pedigree cats, without being bothered by 'the great unwashed and their mangy moggies', I would advise you to go register with a cat fanciers forum, just as I use the Champdogs site for show talk, and here for the more general stuff.

Stop thinking about what (or who) you would like, and think about what the visitors to this site need, otherwise you will simply drive the newbies away (already happening by the looks of things).

How about a sticky that says "Help...my cat is pregnant. What are my options?", and then another that says, "I am thinking of breeding my pedigree cat. What should I know?"

Visitors can then click straight through to the one that's more likely to suit THEIR needs, and not the needs of about 3 people who already come here everyday.

On the "cat is pregnant" sticky, try being helpful and reassuring. Don't bash them before they've even learned anything. Help them to estimate how many weeks pregnant their cat might be (perhaps using photos as a reference) and then include links to different sections...Cat looks to be 1-4 weeks, 4-6 weeks, 6-8 weeks, 8 weeks +.

In each section, explain their options at that stage of the pregnancy.

End the section with a piece about neutering/spaying the cat after the pregnancy (assuming they have to carry on through full term), and then describe the labour and after care of the kittens, as well as how to find decent homes and when to let the kittens go.

Sorry if I sound a bit cheesed off, but the way this sticky is going it will end up of no use to the very people and cats who will desperately need it's help.


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> *Obviously a post wouldn't be made a sticky if it was inaccurate*, but it shouldn't matter who the post is from or what the poster has previously done as long as it is sound advice and all the more experienced people can vouch that it is sound advice then I see no problem what the OPs name is.


i agree it shouldnt matter who writes it, just that its accurate, but i do think it matters an awful lot that every rescue organisation i have approached with this idea, in the hope of getting their backing, or endorsement or cooperation with this idea have all rejected it out of hand as a "how to" guide for moggy breeding that they want no part of and feel its a terrible idea.

i would never support anything that reputable cat resuce organisations are totally against, and i hope i speak for more than myself when i say that.

and gratch, before you remind me, i took on board what you said about the out of hand rejections possibly coming about because i presented them in a negative manner, so I printed out your previous posts on the subject, they still werent interested, they still were dead set against it. I know you were going to try to get some cat charities on board, I take it you havent been successful on that front either? doesnt that tell you anything?

then there is also the issue that the two people writing this "how to" guide on moggy breeding, gratch herself is very inexperienced and has made some major mistakes in rearing her kittens, the two that spring to mind (well 3) are allowing the newborns to get fleas, and then against the advice of experienced breeders bathing the newborn kittens, which of course didnt cure the fleas, just risked the kittens lives, then the thing about her stopping weighing the kittens before they were two weeks old. And the one breeder she is getting help from is a breeder who (dont know how to say this, exceppt as it is) has questionable ethics and breeding practices, like: used an untested moggy stud to further her outcross breeding, lets her unneutered cats out to roam the streets when she assumes they are not in heat, and has been in the position more than once of not knowing who the parents of her kittens are

sorry i think with these two people behind it, this is a terrible idea and would damage the reputation of this forum, and would be damaging to cats in general as it will just be a "how to" guide for every would-be moggy breeder who thinks a cute litter of kittens is an okay idea


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

classixuk said:


> Oh my goodness. If only you could read the codwallop, snobbery and snideness contained within this thread.
> 
> "I wouldn't read it if X did it"
> "I would only vote for it being a sticky if Y did it"
> ...


That's a pretty damning account of some of the members who have posted on this thread. I'm not even going to address much of what you've said as it is plainly written with absolutely no insight. That you really believe it has something to do with pedigree cat snobbery -v- the great unwashed and their mangy moggies illustrates perfectly just how far off the mark you are.

Some of what you said would be quite relevant if the one long term breeder who has offered to help Gratch in writing the sticky wasn't constantly under a barrage of exasperated comment and question by almost every plainly ethical breeder here.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> That's a pretty damning account of some of the members who have posted on this thread. I'm not even going to address much of what you've said as it is plainly written with absolutely no insight. *That you really believe it has something to do with pedigree cat snobbery -v- the great unwashed and their mangy moggies illustrates perfectly just how far off the mark you are.*
> 
> Some of what you said would be quite relevant if the one long term breeder who has offered to help Gratch in writing the sticky wasn't constantly under a barrage of exasperated comment and question by almost every plainly ethical breeder here.


That bit in bold.

It's not just my opinion.

How many newbies here in the cat section complain within days of getting here of being 'bashed'? How many threads here in the cat section end up locked or deleted? How come, even over in general chat, this section has a terrible reputation?

It might not be intended to be 'pedigree cat snobbery -vs- the great unwashed', but that's exactly how it reads and exactly how it feels to the majority of us regulars and many many newbies.

If you told your husband that he had hurt your feelings, would you let him get away with saying, "That's your problem. The truth hurts. I never set out to hurt your feelings, so therefore I am in the right"?

Many of you here in the cat section need to try and be more accommodating and helpful. This forum is meant to serve the needs of thousands, not just a handful.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

classixuk said:


> That bit in bold.
> 
> It might not be intended to be 'pedigree cat snobbery -vs- the great unwashed', but that's exactly how it reads and exactly how it feels to the majority of us regulars and many many newbies.
> 
> .


but it isnt that at all, just so happens that 99% of them are moggies being let outside, even if it were a pedigree cat being let outside, we would all have the same reaction.

Nothing wrong with moggies, I own 2 of them, its the Way they are bred, if there was a way to (sorry cant think of the word Im not very well at the mo) something it (regulate?) I think thats what we want to aim for? like for example bring in some sort of law that kittens cant go to new homes before 10 weeks (baby steps) and with 1st vac & a vet check and wormed with a note from the vet saying that its been done?

This in itself will hopefully put alot of people off and torwards neutering purely due to the cost of it (moggies go around 5-8weeks of age) ?

then working the way up to 12weeks with both vacs, or something?

*
The thing is people are coming on here with pregnant cats, they are going to read a sticky BEFORE it happens, so I dont think there is much point in wirting it, even the neutering thing I wrote, I doubt many people look at it before their cats let outside etc!

most pedigree breeders research beforehand so dont raelly come on a forum to look for what health tests are needed?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

> It might not be intended to be 'pedigree cat snobbery -vs- the great unwashed', but that's exactly how it reads and exactly how it feels to the majority of us regulars and many many newbies.


Its not about pedigree's vs moggies. This is about the credibility of those making a thread that (judging from their opinions) is going to be very biest and lacking on very important information.

There are other breeders on this site who have experience and not dated views.

The way the thread should go is:
-Do you want the kittens? (explain why its not a great idea and the dangers involved for mum and kittens/rescue situation/health risks).

-Suggesting spay as a solution.

-If pregnancy is allowed to continue/is to far along to spay - advice on what is needed (whelping supplies) and further advice on raising kittens.

Sadly the way Its likely to go is.

-Do you want the kittens? Yes....here's how.....
(btw you do know you can spay if you dont).

And no information on the risks/health and birthing risks.

IF I had a pregnant cat (pedigree or moggie) I would want to know the risks and weigh up the options.

I think I am not alone in the worry that the thread (apparently rescues agree also) will turn into a how to guide rather than a "right here's your choices" thread.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

I think a Sticky regarding this subject is a brill idea well done to all that have thought of this and all that are going to help put it together and on the forum. 

There are far too many arguments and nasty comments made to newbies regarding this subject that there is no need in my opinion. 

A sticky would give them the advice that they need and anymore questions they can just ask, if they dare!!!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Why don't we draw a line and work collectively to come up with a thread that can be used by everyone and put up.

If we get someone who has no idea about cat breeding to ask some questions about breeding, then get some answers from a number of members then it can be collected and put into a thread which will be useful for all members.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> but it isnt that at all, just so happens that 99% of them are moggies being let outside, even if it were a pedigree cat being let outside, we would all have the same reaction.
> 
> Nothing wrong with moggies, I own 2 of them, its the Way they are bred, if there was a way to (sorry cant think of the word Im not very well at the mo) something it (regulate?) I think thats what we want to aim for? like for example bring in some sort of law that kittens cant go to new homes before 10 weeks (baby steps) and with 1st vac & a vet check and wormed with a note from the vet saying that its been done?
> 
> ...


This is my point Taylorbaby, hence I suggested that the thread begin with 'How pregnant is your cat likely to be...see photos...and then options (depending on how far gone the queen is).

Your other points are valid, a little utopian in my experience, but would be amazing if they could happen...I guess that's another thread though)



shetlandlover said:


> Its not about pedigree's vs moggies. This is about the credibility of those making a thread that (judging from their opinions) is going to be very biest and lacking on very important information.
> 
> There are other breeders on this site who have experience and not dated views.
> 
> ...


I think it looks as if we're in agreement about where the thread should go. It begins with a pregnant cat and explores the options (and why).

But none of this can be achieved if the reader feels as if they are being treated like an inferior person, or questioned as to why they let their cat out etc. The cat is already pregnant, and that's where the thread needs to begin in my opinion.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

classixuk said:


> That bit in bold.
> 
> It's not just my opinion.
> 
> ...


I've said it before, more than once, that I often dislike the tone and the sometimes preaching quality of some replies when a newcomer has started a thread about a pregnant mog. But in all honesty I see that too EVERY bit as much, if not more, in the dog breeding section; the constant and repetitive mantra of don't breed; don't add to the rescue problem; you've not done your homework; you don't know the breed; have you health tested? the mind numbing, endless to'ing and fro'ing about crossbreeds...on and on and on.

I don't contribute because I scarcely understand the general issues, let alone the specifics.

But this is about someone wanting to put together a sticky. I don't know if you breed dogs, but if you do, let me put this way: Would you like to see a sticky in the dog breeding section written by one well meaning member who had had one 'oops' litter of mongrels, aided by a breeder whose ethics trouble not only you but many other breeders in the section greatly?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

classixuk said:


> But none of this can be achieved if the reader feels as if they are being treated like an inferior person, or questioned as to why they let their cat out etc. The cat is already pregnant, and that's where the thread needs to begin in my opinion.


I dont want this to come across rude because its not meant to be but I cant think of a better way to word it but I dont want to hear their excuses because its the same excuses, what I want from the thread is for it to give FAIR advice and give options.

Both Gratch and Liz are against spaying a pregnant cat so this is why I think that a very vital bit of advice will be missing.

I know next to nothing about cat breeding, possibly like many who come on here with pregnant cats. Many dont know that spaying can be done to abort a pregnancy. Also spaying is not as risky as birthing. Which is something that should be pointed out.

Health risks should be addressed as should correct raising. 
Liz and Gratch have both questionable ways of raising a litter so other breeders like Aurelia or Taylor should really be involved in the bit about raising a litter.

I think Tanya's idea is a good one, Because we all have different views on things (mainly spaying pregnant cats and raising the litter) and priority of different things some think health problems are not as important as others feel so really there is no way to get an un-biest thread unless done by many people mixed in.

If that makes sense.

It needs to be a "what do I do next" thread and "what are my options" not a "how to guide" or a "dont spay a pregnant cat because its murder" thread.

The goal should be delivering a message clear to "pregnant" cat owners.

There are alternatives if you dont want the litter, you should consider them because there are risks involved with birthing and untested cats and less risks invovled with spaying.

If they wish to continue here is the correct and ethical way to look after/care for the litter. ____________

If that makes sense.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> I've said it before, more than once, that I often dislike the tone and the sometimes preaching quality of some replies when a newcomer has started a thread about a pregnant mog. But in all honesty I see that too EVERY bit as much, if not more, in the dog breeding section; the constant and repetitive mantra of don't breed; don't add to the rescue problem; you've not done your homework; you don't know the breed; have you health tested? the mind numbing, endless to'ing and fro'ing about crossbreeds...on and on and on.
> 
> I don't contribute because I scarcely understand the general issues, let alone the specifics.
> 
> But this is about someone wanting to put together a sticky. I don't know if you breed dogs, but if you do, let me put this way: Would you like to see a sticky in the dog breeding section written by one well meaning member who had had one 'oops' litter of mongrels, aided by a breeder whose ethics trouble not only you but many other breeders in the section greatly?


I understand where you are coming from, but we need to remember that this is a public forum not owned or operated by any one of us in particular. If such a thread were made a sticky, it does not mean that it needs to be closed. It is open to replies and further discussion. This means that people can add their own experiences e.g. Member A mentioned making a nesting area under the stairs, but I found that my queens don't always nest where I think they should. Also, be sure to box off any wires (most people have their meters under the stairs) to avoid any risk, injury or death to the kittens.

A reply like that would be a good addition in my opinion. Although it is in disagreement with the original advice, it is done politely. 

And yes...the dog breeding section can suffer exactly the same 'egos'.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Please look here 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-bree...uide-cat-breeding-information-collection.html


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont want this to come across rude because its not meant to be but I cant think of a better way to word it but I dont want to hear their excuses because its the same excuses, what I want from the thread is for it to give FAIR advice and give options.
> 
> Both Gratch and Liz are against spaying a pregnant cat so this is why I think that a very vital bit of advice will be missing.
> 
> ...


It makes perfect sense. I agree with you. That format would be brilliant.


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> Why don't we draw a line and work collectively to come up with a thread that can be used by everyone and put up.
> 
> If we get someone who has no idea about cat breeding to ask some questions about breeding, then get some answers from a number of members then it can be collected and put into a thread which will be useful for all members.


But it really ought not be about "breeding". I thought you guys were just going for information about how to care for the cat during its "accidental" pregnancy, the kittens after, and to politely explain why it's important to prevent it happening again?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

classixuk said:


> Your other points are valid, a little utopian in my experience, but would be amazing if they could happen...I guess that's another thread though)


haha :laugh: my little world, we Could surely make a petition? (I dont know where to start but happy to help?? can do them online??) and contact mps and things?? one person change change the world imagine what we all can do! lol!

I think in some countries it is actualyl illgel to sell kittens under 12weeks of age and you can face prison (where she who shall no be named is from  )

I see in your pic that you have a dog? just flip it the other way round, say that everyday even 2 times a day someone was coming on dog breeding saying 'my dogs in heat it got out and is due to have pups in a few days what do I do?!' wouldnt you start to roll eyes and get a bit annoyed...

I still do give info, infact Im currently 'helping' 3 people with moggie litters (privately through email) and someone who wants to let their pedigree outside (desperatly trying to convience her otherwise) I also get daily emails / phone calls about breeding!!

After a while I think it just gets to you, I certainly dont know everything, I know more than when I started! But it does grind you down.

anyway Im going on now!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> But it really ought not be about "breeding". I thought you guys were just going for information about how to care for the cat during its "accidental" pregnancy, the kittens after, and to politely explain why it's important to prevent it happening again?


But I've just noticed there isn't any Breeding stickies in this section as such..... so the moggies bit could be incorporated just as in the dog breeding section


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

For the record, I am against breeding full stop, but I'm all for educating people who are genuinely unaware of the population problem, and explaining how to prevent future pregnancies, how to take care of the mother and kittens, etc.

It may seem obvious stuff to "animal people" like us, but a lot of "non animal people" keep animals too, and sadly many of them are uneducated on their own pets!

When I was a young'un my own parents let their cats get pregnant. Three female cats pregnant!! In my own mind, I can see that this was irresponsible and preventable and just plain old wrong. But my parents aren't bad, uncaring people, they just genuinely couldn't afford to get the cats spayed and then didn't keep them indoors! What did they expect to bloody happen?? Eeeesh. (We were poor.) And they had no idea of the cat overpopulation problem. They got their cats from a neighbour's accidental litter.  And they gave all the kittens to others in the area who probably didn't spay and neuter either. (Ugh)

If the internet had been around then, I'm sure they'd have appreciated having somewhere like this to turn and being told the error of their ways, where to get low cost spaying, etc. 
Not to encourage breeding! Not to be a "how-to" guide. Not to tell them it's okay and they're not doing anything wrong. Just to help them to help their cats and to raise awareness to all the issues surrounding "breeding".


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I agree. If its wrote by someone who believes spaying a pregnant cat is "murder" then can it be un-biest about the situation?


There is no-one here who believes that, as far as I know.

Liz


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

classixuk said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but we need to remember that this is a public forum not owned or operated by any one of us in particular. If such a thread were made a sticky, it does not mean that it needs to be closed. It is open to replies and further discussion. This means that people can add their own experiences e.g. Member A mentioned making a nesting area under the stairs, but I found that my queens don't always nest where I think they should. Also, be sure to box off any wires (most people have their meters under the stairs) to avoid any risk, injury or death to the kittens.
> 
> A reply like that would be a good addition in my opinion. Although it is in disagreement with the original advice, it is done politely.
> 
> And yes...the dog breeding section can suffer exactly the same 'egos'.


I take your point entirely. I'd been thinking of stickies as a one-off, 'closed' subject. I'm trying hard not to be pedantic or to appear to be putting obstacles in front of every step but I fear that the intended sticky will wind up being an endless, ongoing marathon of heated, conflicting views and the newbie reading it would probably self-combust at about page 137 :blink:


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> But I've just noticed there isn't any Breeding stickies in this section as such..... so the moggies bit could be incorporated just as in the dog breeding section


Oh, I see, I don't visit the breeding sections often. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

lizward said:


> There is no-one here who believes that, as far as I know.
> 
> Liz


So I am wrong in thinking you are against spaying pregnant cats because the (I shall call them) group of cells is living?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> For the record, I am against breeding full stop, but I'm all for educating people who are genuinely unaware of the population problem, and explaining how to prevent future pregnancies, how to take care of the mother and kittens, etc.
> 
> It may seem obvious stuff to "animal people" like us, but a lot of "non animal people" keep animals too, and sadly many of them are uneducated on their own pets!
> 
> ...


I think it was more common years ago 'oh my cats outside its having a litter' type thing, but now I think (hopefully) people are wising up? that it doesnt have to be like that, and I read that 1 cat can go on to produce 21 thousand kittens :blink: that cant be right?!


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I think it was more common years ago 'oh my cats outside its having a litter' type thing, but now I think (hopefully) people are wising up? that it doesnt have to be like that, and I read that 1 cat can go on to produce 21 thousand kittens :blink: that cant be right?!


Maybe it means if one cat gets pregnant and has 5 kittens, and three of those kittens go on to have 5 kittens each....etc etc!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Chez87 said:


> Maybe it means if one cat gets pregnant and has 5 kittens, and three of those kittens go on to have 5 kittens each....etc etc!


lol thats what I mean!!   still seeing it like that.... :blink:


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> lol thats what I mean!!   still seeing it like that.... :blink:


But if you think about it's entirely possible when people don't neuter...!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> So I am wrong in thinking you are against spaying pregnant cats because the (I shall call them) group of cells is living?


You realise, surely, that some people here are so sensitive (until they fancy dishing out dirt, of course) that you can't put basic scientific facts without someone going crying to the mods that a nasty pro-lifer used nasty words like "kill". 

Killing any animal at any stage of its life for any reason is not murder under any system of law that I know of. Murder is the premeditated unlawful killing of a human being. Therefore spaying a pregnant cat is not murder. It kills the kittens, of course, and yes indeed I object to that, but it is not murder because it is legal.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Chez87 said:


> But if you think about it's entirely possible when people don't neuter...!


I'd want to see the maths.

Liz


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## NoSpecialFeaturesHere (Nov 23, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I read that 1 cat can go on to produce 21 thousand kittens :blink: that cant be right?!


Well, only if that first cat was pregnant! 

Seriously though, it's very sad... When you think that in some places litters of kittens are being put to sleep before they've had even a chance of finding a home* just because they're black*!! It makes you wonder what people are thinking of. But, like I say, sometimes people just don't realise and they need it pointing out to them before things can get better. You're right, it's better than twenty years ago. But we still need it even betterer.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

lizward said:


> It kills the kittens, of course, and yes indeed I object to that.


This is why I believe others should partake in the thread other than you and gratch. Because you are against it. There for biest against what should be done rather than being straight up about the options that someone has in the early stage of cat pregnancy.

I myself knew Martha could have been pregnant so I took her to the vet and had her spayed. Why?

-She was to young.
-To small.
-Not health tested.
-Too many moggies already homeless...why would I add to more?

My girl is now a happy girl who I think had a very lucky escape because she could well have died during birth.


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## Lumboo (Mar 31, 2011)

lizward said:


> There is no-one here who believes that, as far as I know.
> 
> Liz


I believe this, and personally I would not feel right about getting a pregnant cat spayed - however far along she was.

However I also believe that responsible pet owners should get their dogs/cats neutered as soon as the animal reaches the right age/weight and I am planning to get my two boys neutered as soon as they reach 4 months. There is absolutely NO REASON not to do this unless you are a breeder. With so much charitable assistance for neutering for low income earners, not to mention an absolute wealth of information about the responsible way of owning a pet, I can see why it is so frustrating to those who see the results of unwanted litters every day that people continue not to heed advice.

Neutering/Spaying was something I calculated in the costs of owning a cat. Owning a pet wasn't something I took lightly, and before I got my kittens I was on this forum asking the most stupid questions.

A quick trip to Battersea Dogs home (the cats section was much better) was the most depressing 5 minutes of my recent life. These poor dogs going mad in their small cages and knowing over 50% would probably be put down. I bet they all were cute puppies though.

If this section can give advice for owners of pregnant moggies that is great, but it HAS to bring home the message that you cannot do it again.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> i take your point entirely. I'd been thinking of stickies as a one-off, 'closed' subject. I'm trying hard not to be pedantic or to appear to be putting obstacles in front of every step but i fear that the intended sticky will wind up being an endless, ongoing marathon of heated, conflicting views and *the newbie reading it would probably self-combust at about page 137 * :blink:


lol!


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

just because liz may be against pregnant cats getting spayed doesnt mean she wouldnt put up factual and rounded advice both for and against! Not everyone is going to agree and not everyone has the same opinion but judging her before shes actually done it I think is being unreasonable! ... rather than moan about who you dont want doing the sticky maybe you should put yourself forward so everyone can get their say and see both sides of the coin! 

people are assuming they wont do a good job just because they have a personal opinion on 1 aspect of the situation.

I personally am against abortion of any animal or person both ethically and religiously but in saying that I would also make sure there is no way in hell my cat could have any possible way of escaping and getting herself pregnant by some randum cat! at the very most my cats would breed with each other by "accident" but i have no issues with that because they are all healthy, tested, of breed and "type" and are not related!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Chez87 said:


> But if you think about it's entirely possible when people don't neuter...!





lizward said:


> I'd want to see the maths.
> 
> Liz


here ya go! 

Cats can have up to 5 litters a YEAR. it's usually more like 3 or 4. Each litter can be from 1 kitten to 10 or more. The average is 4-6 kittens per litter. Cats have kittens as long as they live. Each kitten in a litter has kittens. Each of those kittens has kittens.

According to humane sites one un-spayed female cat and one un-neutered male cat and their offspring results in 420,000 kittens in 7 years. 
It takes a male cat to produce each of those kittens.

So spay AND neuter

Read more: Answers.com - How many kittens could a female cat have in her lifetime



NoSpecialFeaturesHere said:


> Well, only if that first cat was pregnant!
> 
> Seriously though, it's very sad... When you think that in some places litters of kittens are being put to sleep before they've had even a chance of finding a home* just because they're black*!! It makes you wonder what people are thinking of. But, like I say, sometimes people just don't realise and they need it pointing out to them before things can get better. You're right, it's better than twenty years ago. But we still need it even betterer.


I know, thats what I dont get about the bombay pedigree cat, thats black? Yet black kittens seem to always be the ones left over or given away for free? 

lol I know! Anyone know how to make a petition online??


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> This is why I believe others should partake in the thread other than you and gratch. Because you are against it. There for biest against what should be done rather than being straight up about the options that someone has in the early stage of cat pregnancy.
> 
> I myself knew Martha could have been pregnant so I took her to the vet and had her spayed. Why?
> 
> ...


I had a similiar experience, found a young kitten/cat when I was 17 ... clueless about cats really, but basic care. Thought it was male, so booked in for castration to find it female ... no biggy just had her spayed.

Sure she could have been pregnant, but I was sensible enough to know spaying best option for her. Not rocket science


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Shayden said:


> j*ust because liz may be against pregnant cats getting spayed doesnt mean she wouldnt put up factual and rounded advice both for and against! * Not everyone is going to agree and not everyone has the same opinion but judging her before shes actually done it I think is being unreasonable! ... rather than moan about who you dont want doing the sticky maybe you should put yourself forward so everyone can get their say and see both sides of the coin!
> 
> people are assuming they wont do a good job just because they have a personal opinion on 1 aspect of the situation.
> 
> I personally am against abortion of any animal or person both ethically and religiously but in saying that I would also make sure there is no way in hell my cat could have any possible way of escaping and getting herself pregnant by some randum cat! at the very most my cats would breed with each other by "accident" but i have no issues with that because they are all healthy, tested, of breed and "type" and are not related!


I would assume the same.

Liz seems like an intelligent person.

Not mentioning it (spaying during pregnancy) would be like a vegetarian refusing to show you where the meat aisle is in the supermarket.



I'm sure the thread will be factual and share many experiences. You will all do a good job.


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## Lumboo (Mar 31, 2011)

I didn't want black kittens, I stated that I wanted a ginger and tabby one. What did I end up with? Two black kittens (well with some white as well) because we fell in love with each other and the colour made s*d all difference at the end of that day.

It is quite upsetting to see so many unwanted black / black and whites though. Quite pleased our kittens Mum (white and black) found a new home too.

Can I just ask, what do breeders - pedigree or moggies, do with kittens that do not find homes? Are they just given to rescue centres?


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

> just because liz may be against pregnant cats getting spayed doesnt mean she wouldnt put up factual and rounded advice both for and against!


I have seen Liz be very passive about moggie pregnancy's in the past so I really do not hold much hope for their to be a fair amount of information for spaying, risks of pregnancy over spaying and so on but would love to be corrected by Liz when the thread goes ahead.



> rather than moan about who you dont want doing the sticky maybe you should put yourself forward


I am not a cat breeder nor have ever had a litter however I worked in a vets for a few years were I saw many moggie pregnancy's and I myself spayed a possible pregnant moggie (my cat martha) at a very young age for her health and welfare.



> people are assuming they wont do a good job just because they have a personal opinion on 1 aspect of the situation.


Mainly because I have seen it many times. The health of the kittens (which is un-known when you know nor mum or dads genetics) is something which is passed over alot imo.



> at the very most my cats would breed with each other by "accident" but i have no issues with that because they are all healthy, tested, of breed and "type" and are not related!


But this is the problem. Many people who come on here for advice have a moggie which has no type. (they come in a vairy of sizes, mixed breeds).

Many of which have no idea who dad is let alone have mum or dad tested.

Health again define? Healthy as in? Can walk, eat and play? Or healthy as in they dont have a genetic probelm that is common but has to be tested for in order to know?


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Lumboo said:


> I
> Can I just ask, what do breeders - pedigree or moggies, do with kittens that do not find homes? Are they just given to rescue centres?


NO!!! Well, no GOOD breeder does this we keep them until they do find homes...if thats never...well it just means that I just have more cats to play with   But generally breeders keep them until they find homes!

cant answer for moggie 'breeders' as I have no idea, I do see alot of adverts for buy one get one free moggies or free now as to old 10weeks old !!!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I think this thread is going round in circles


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I think this thread is going round in circles


I'm on your other thread trying to think up questions.

It's lonely over there.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Maybe it's just me but this thread is sounding increasingly like "The Beginners Guide to Cat Breeding" or maybe "Moggy Breeding For Dummies"


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

this wasnt aimed at you but thats exactly my point tho.... they can write and make what ever they want to and if anyone has any objections or wants to add to it or be incorporated in the initial sticky then put yourself forward. but dont assume that she will do a bad job! and im sure if it was bias or had a lack of information then it wouldnt be a sticky to begin with, especially of those of you who say your responsible breeders voice your opinions contrary to what she has written.


and just because a cat is walking doesnt make it healthy.... all my cats are heath checked pkd tested, blood tested and been snap tested.


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## Lumboo (Mar 31, 2011)

Taylorbaby said:


> NO!!! Well, no GOOD breeder does this we keep them until they do find homes...if thats never...well it just means that I just have more cats to play with   But generally breeders keep them until they find homes!
> 
> cant answer for moggie 'breeders' as I have no idea, I do see alot of adverts for buy one get one free moggies or free now as to old 10weeks old !!!


Thanks for answering that - I did wonder....


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Maybe it's just me but this thread is sounding increasingly like "The Beginners Guide to Cat Breeding" or maybe "Moggy Breeding For Dummies"


Then maybe you'd like to add something constuctive to the other thread


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Some breeders sell them off cheaply and one local one even had the nerve to ask a local rescue if they would pay for them to be neutered as they didn't want them bred from


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Then maybe you'd like to add something constuctive to the other thread


Not interested in encouraging people to breed from their cats


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Some breeders sell them off cheaply and one local one even had the nerve to ask a local rescue if they would pay for them to be neutered as they didn't want them bred from


I think the reason for reducing the price is that people want a 'cute kitten' and once its 13weeks old, even though it is a cute kitten, its bigger and people would rather have the smaller cuter one.


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Maybe it's just me but this thread is sounding increasingly like "The Beginners Guide to Cat Breeding" or maybe "Moggy Breeding For Dummies"


I think that what (some of us) are trying to do is make sure that there is clear information and a path forward to the person who types in to google "is my cat pregnant?"

Yahoo answers might tell them to make a cosy bed.

I think this 'new thread' is aiming to be more responsible and explain what the options are.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Not interested in encouraging people to breed from their cats


Then write about why. Write why breeding from cats isn't a good idea. The risks, the rescue situation etc 

Its not a thread about breeding from your cat... the title will be changed to something more suitable in time, it was the best I could come up with at the time- I'd not had a cup of coffee


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

The problem we have on the cat section is that people start getting on there high horse at people as soon as they say my cat is pregnant, WE do NOT know there lifestyle or personal details, they may well be decent folk that have the money and lifestyle to breed but are just after some advice. 

They are jumped on and hurled insults galore which is not the answer on a PET FORUM, i have seen many people disappear as they are too scared to ask questions or advice because of this. 

So a sticky that is telling you the risks, pro's and con's of breeding etc or a cat having kittens whatever the situation will at least be helpful to read if they are too scared to mention it. 

I am behind you all for doing this.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> Then write about why. Write why breeding from cats isn't a good idea. The risks, the rescue situation etc


Can I do this too? Or is there only 1 person to 1 part?

I have so many stories of pregnancies gone wrong too. (moggie and pedigree).


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> I think the reason for reducing the price is that people want a 'cute kitten' and once its 13weeks old, even though it is a cute kitten, its bigger and people would rather have the smaller cuter one.


I think is quite true and why so many people are happy to take a kitten at six or seven weeks  There is no thought beyond 'Oh it's a very cute little kitten' they do not realise the advantages to that cute kitten in staying with its mother for a few more weeks  and then wonder why their kitten bites, scratches the furniture, cries through the night etc. etc. ...


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Amethyst said:


> Maybe it's just me but this thread is sounding increasingly like "The Beginners Guide to Cat Breeding" or maybe "Moggy Breeding For Dummies"


no its definitely not just you

it *will* be the beginners guide to moggy breeding

the shelters & cat rescue charities i contacted to try and get them onboard (so it wouldnt be too one-sided, too pro-moggy breeding) thought the exact same and refused to even consider cooperating with such an initiative


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

Tanya1989 said:


> Then maybe you'd like to add something constuctive to the other thread


i dont know what other thread youre referring to, have just logged on and catching up

but i simply dont want any part in any initative that makes shelters and cat rescue organisations squirm in horror

adding good points to a bad idea just legitimises the bad idea


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

catsmum said:


> no its definitely not just you
> 
> it *will* be the beginners guide to moggy breeding
> 
> the shelters & cat rescue charities i contacted to try and get them onboard (so it wouldnt be too one-sided, too pro-moggy breeding) thought the exact same and refused to even consider cooperating with such an initiative


Can I ask what the shelters and rescue charities would like to see done? How would they like to educate people into getting their pets neutered?


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

so basically what your saying is unless your going to spay your pregnant moggy im not going to give any advice!
you made your bed, so if the kittens die or theres complications... its your problem!


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## Marley boy (Sep 6, 2010)

This thread makes my head boggle :crazy: if op wants to start a thread thats fine with me, if its any good it will be made a sticky if it isn't it wont simples, i will make my decision on what is written  "He that is amonge you without sin, let him cast the first stone at her." John 8:7 :lol: i just quoted jesus get me............ ok i copied and pasted it from wikipedia


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Shayden said:


> so basically what your saying is unless your going to spay your pregnant moggy im not going to give any advice!
> you made your bed, so if the kittens die or theres complications... its your problem!


Does not sound like "animal lovers" does it???


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## catsmum (Feb 4, 2011)

lymorelynn said:


> Can I ask what the shelters and rescue charities would like to see done? How would they like to educate people into getting their pets neutered?


well i cant speak for every shelter, you do understand that, i basically i got the impression they would support any and every initiative that promoted getting pets neutered. but not any initative that was a guide to breeding and rearing "accidental" litters. I know we're just supposed to think it and not say it out loud, but we all KNOW that 99.9% of the "accidental" litters are no accident at all, they are somewhere between negligence and deliberate. the impression i got was that any type of "how to" guide would just encourage YET more breeding of moggies


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

KathrynH said:


> Does not sound like "animal lovers" does it???


no it doesnt... im actually shocked thats the stance some people have! imagine if it wasnt their cat, or it was a stray or the cat is already too far along to spay safely... due to peoples own ego and ignorance you would risk the lives of the same kittens ur trying to save!

speaks volumes doesnt it!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Can I do this too? Or is there only 1 person to 1 part?
> 
> I have so many stories of pregnancies gone wrong too. (moggie and pedigree).


Anyone with knowledge or an opinion can add to it. I don't make the rule lol... I am the last person that can decide what is relevant and what is not I know sweet nothing about breeding cats.

I suppose thats why I am useful with regards to what I'd want to see in a thread, I am a complete novice, which is why I am like many people who come on here looking for help, because I wouldn't have a clue what to do if my cat was suddenly suspected to be pregnant.

For those who still don't know what I am trying to achieve, visit the dog breeding section sticky (Should I breed from my bitch) and my dog breeding website (In my signature)..... Neither promote breeding, but are an information source to those who are stuck and don't know what to do/ where to turn.



catsmum said:


> i dont know what other thread youre referring to, have just logged on and catching up
> 
> but i simply dont want any part in any initative that makes shelters and cat rescue organisations squirm in horror
> 
> adding good points to a bad idea just legitimises the bad idea


Its about the opposite.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Shayden said:


> no it doesnt... im actually shocked thats the stance some people have! imagine if it wasnt their cat, or it was a stray or the cat is already too far along to spay safely... due to peoples own ego and ignorance you would risk the lives of the same kittens ur trying to save!
> 
> speaks volumes doesnt it!


NO one has said anything to this effect but you. Find me one post that says they would spay desite it being too far along to spay safely.

You have a habit of speaking for people then kicking off about things people havent even said!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

catsmum said:


> well i cant speak for every shelter, you do understand that, i basically i got the impression they would support any and every initiative that promoted getting pets neutered. but not any initative that was a guide to breeding and rearing "accidental" litters. I know we're just supposed to think it and not say it out loud, but we all KNOW that 99.9% of the "accidental" litters are no accident at all, they are somewhere between negligence and deliberate. the impression i got was that any type of "how to" guide would just encourage YET more breeding of moggies


Perhaps you should take a look at Tanya's thread. I, for one, do not think it is a guide for breeding moggies or any other cat for that matter

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-bree...uide-cat-breeding-information-collection.html
I don't think the title is right but it's heading in the right direction.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

lymorelynn said:


> Perhaps you should take a look at Tanya's thread. I, for one, do not think it is a guide for breeding moggies or any other cat for that matter
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-bree...uide-cat-breeding-information-collection.html
> I don't think the title is right but it's heading in the right direction.


Hahah, I just changed the title


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> Hahah, I just changed the title


You did it while I was typing - sneaky


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## Shayden (Mar 29, 2011)

and you seen how many of my posts in order to make that assumption? some people are clearly stating their opinion and that they want no part in a thread that is there to HELP already pregnant moggies not encourage the breeding of them!.

therefore on that basis i can only assume that is their stance on the situation! 

i am obviously not the only one!

and if the only time you feel to address me is when u disagree with my opinion and want to ridicule me then may i please ask you to take a running jump! I am not interested in conversing with egotistical narcissistic entities 

Regards


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> NO one has said anything to this effect but you. *Find me one post that says they would spay despite it being too far along to spay safely*.


Well? You won't find one.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Can I do this too? Or is there only 1 person to 1 part?
> 
> I have so many stories of pregnancies gone wrong too. (moggie and pedigree).


SL, I believe you'd be a good member to be involved in compiling this 'sticky'. Unlike others, you appear to have the right attitude, can write without bias, give facts based on experience of having your own moggies that you look after in a responsible way, you don't make threads 'all about you' and generally come across as a well balanced person who is able to impart advice without it turning into an overly emotive subject.

When someone suggested earlier in the thread that you become involved in the 'sticky', you said you don't breed; but the very fact that you don't breed makes you an ideal candidate to be involved. You have a lot of knowledge about cat welfare in general and with regards to the specialist breeding advice, you could work alongside a breeder who is willing to offer some time to put the information together. Hopefully this way, people will get impartial, factual advice and information rather than personal perspectives


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> SL, I believe you'd be a good member to be involved in compiling this 'sticky'. Unlike others, you appear to have the right attitude, can write without bias, give facts based on experience of having your own moggies that you look after in a responsible way, you don't make threads 'all about you' and generally come across as a well balanced person who is able to impart advice without it turning into an overly emotive subject.
> 
> When someone suggested earlier in the thread that you become involved in the 'sticky', you said you don't breed; but the very fact that you don't breed makes you an ideal candidate to be involved. You have a lot of knowledge about cat welfare in general and with regards to the specialist breeding advice, you could work alongside a breeder who is willing to offer some time to put the information together. Hopefully this way, people will get impartial, factual advice and information rather than personal perspectives



Thank you.

I have added some information to the thread tanya posted up. I may add more later I am trying to get through 2 essays (was 3 managed to get one done already).:tongue_smilie:


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

Would some of the stories of my experience of "birthing gone wrong" while working in the vets be any good or to much?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Would some of the stories of my experience of "birthing gone wrong" while working in the vets be any good or to much?


I think so, as long as you keep it factual. There are so many 'mine were fine!' posts that I dont see why a healthy dose of 'well here are some examples of when it hasnt been fine' is a good thing.


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Would some of the stories of my experience of "birthing gone wrong" while working in the vets be any good or to much?


They would be good, as long as you kept it factual, not embellished. People need to know the downsides as well as the 'fluffy kitten' aspect.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I think the concept is excellent, and to put in the options, as some people do not know it is possible to spay a pregnant cat or dog. I love cats my last 2 were rescued at 3 weeks and coming here for advise was great, although I didn't post I just read different threads.....Been many years since I had kittens and none of mine were ever abandoned by the mom so it was all new to me. ...They are 3 now and doing great by the way


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2011)

dougal22 said:


> They would be good, as long as you kept it factual, not embellished. People need to know the downsides as well as the 'fluffy kitten' aspect.


I have only put a couple because I am upto the eyes in essays. But you get the gist.

Some of the worst pregnancy problems I had seen was dog pregnancy. But we had a fair few problem cat pregnancy's.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Closing this until I can find out what the reports are about


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