# Working, Advanced or Bite-Sport dogs who were trained using rewards



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this thread is not about OPINIONS - but dogs who work as SAR [search & rescue], police-k9, military-k9, 
or successfully compete in bite-sports [Schutzhund, Mondio or Ring-sport], & who were trained using rewards - 
EDIT: or who have earned Advanced titles in obedience from a kennel club /registry, also trained via rewards.

*no* shock collars, *no* prong-collars, *no* choke-chains, *no hanging* to close the dog's airway 
& force her/him to 'out' on cue [let go of their bite on a decoy or perp, & move back while watching her/him].

i will begin with a SAR dog from Texas, trained by Bob Deeds, a fellow-USA-apdt trainer who is also a member 
of Force-Free Trainers group; i quote with his permission, 


> _ I am a Canine Search Specialist with TX-TF1, RE-certifying my 2nd Urban search & rescue dog.
> This dog was trained with all positive-methods. She was a totally green pound-pup when I got her.
> I held her back for about 4-months to let her mature. We certified with about 8 months of work.
> I'm currently working on getting a Schutzhund dog up & running, with all positive methods.
> ...


Bob goes on to say, 


> *bold added - *
> 
> _ I'm the only trainer on my task force that trains this way. The rest are all into yank, crank, & shock.
> I've trained both my dogs this way. I was a crossover-trainer on my first USAR dog & I started with traditional methods.
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

could i have some volunteers offer information from their countries?

- what *advanced titles* does the Kennel Club of the UK offer?

- what *advanced titles* does the Canadian Kennel Club offer?

thanks for any help, 
- terry


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> what advanced titles does the Kennel Club of the UK offer?


The kennel club is the only breed registration club in Europe which does not have a working test for its *(1) working breeds which is recognised by the breed registration clubs in Europe as a working title.

Most, probably all, protection breeds in Europe, except UK, must pass a fit for purpose test before the breed registration gives the dog a fit for breeding licence pass, if the dogs do not pass the test their offspring cannot be registered by the club, in some countries, with some protection breeds, if one dog passes & the owner wants to mate with a failed they must approach the breed registration club who scrutinise the ancestory & dogs accomplishmentys and failures to way back when and make a decision on that.

For protection breeds (and their are many) in Europe Sch1 is accepted or the breed countries home working test, KC has no accepted working tests for its protection breeds.

*(1.) I exclude from that gundog specific tests, they may or may not be accepted in Europe, _from what I can make out_ KC gundog tests are pretty good. I don't know how many working breeds are registered by KC.

Excluding gundogs (unkown) there are no KC registered working breeds who can compete at international level breed shows, which is what I think you mean by 'advanced' level ,unless they pass a European standard working test, E.G. 
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> Excluding gundogs [unk*n*own) there are no KC registered working breeds who can compete
> at international level breed shows, which is what I think you mean by 'advanced' level...[/COLOR]


oops  sorry for the miscommunication; no, by *Advanced titles* i meant advanced-obedience - 
off-leash heel, send out, broad jump, figure-8 at heel around human-posts, directed retrieve over 
1 obstacle of a possible pair, find the *handler-scented* article of a group of articles & fetch it 
to a seat at front, directed jumps, sit at a distance [remote sit], drop at a distance [remote down], 
drop in motion [sink to DOWN from heel, when cued; handler does not break pace & walks on], 
drop on recall; take a directed jump, find the handler-scented article & fetch it to front & SIT still holding it, etc.

the advanced-obedience title test need not have ALL of the above behaviors, of course. 
titles & their tests vary all over the place.  just that it not be a basic level of trial & performance.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

I don't know those things or even if KC has anything formal beyond hobby sort of event OB. The down stay, unexpected, strange situation test vid below is what most Euro breed reg clubs would 'see' as a reasonable standard, not just because the dog keeps the command but because the out of sight down stay in a strange situation out of sight & sound of the owner develops the level of confidence, stability & coping mechanisms in the event of a real life situation which might confuse or unnerve a dog and send it off into the wide blue yonder in panic or confusion.

.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*sorry for the miscommunication; no, by Advanced titles i meant advanced-obedience - *

One of my bitches is a UK Obedience Champion, winning her title at Crufts.

She was trained using motivational methods and was never put under any sort of pressure throughout her working life. When she won the Obedience Championships at Crufts I received well over 300 congratulations cards that all more or less said that.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> I don't know those things or even if KC has anything formal beyond hobby sort of event OB


If you don't know, I really wonder about your qualifications and experience.
Everyone I thought knew something about KC high level obedience comps like Crufts!!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Not sure I understand the question, but I have a gundog in training. I click his hold and I've gotten him to hold several items including chocolate (still in the wrapper) and mail and dummies etc... I'm sure when he gets more confident with it I could click the hold on my arm - it's be simple in theory but he has never been taught to touch skin with his teeth so it would be difficult to try that one for me...

But I think clickers can get any behaviour from a dog..


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

Great thread - love the quotes from Bob Deeds  

Hopefully more people competing (or working) like that will start to see positive methods as the way forward and bin the 'traditional' methods.

Nothing to add myself as others have already mentioned the KC stuff. And obviously the Treibball lot train positively, including the American Treibball Association!  (does that count? sort of?  )

(Sleepybones, with regards to the PDE, that was very much a media piece which has its own agenda and I know the KC are working hard to improve the 15 breeds currently under scrutiny. That's why they are health monitoring and working with the judges.)


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Gundog trainers I have found are reluctant to come to the modern way of training. In every age you will find dinosaurs I've been told. I even met a man who used to train gundogs - he used barbed wire and dead hedgehogs to keep the dogs mouth soft - my dog would refuse to pick anything up if I made him do that..


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

The KC licensed sport I take part in is called working Trials, originally when it started in the 1920's it was based on services work, and was gsd's who took part. It is a combination of nosework (tracking & search), jumping (3 ft clear, 9 ft long and 6 foot scale) and obedience (Sendaway and redirections, heelwork, oos down stay, speak) and in the lower stakes retrieve a dumbell, oos sit stay and recall).
The two top stakes which are TD and PD, if you win twice (won a ticket), your dog will become a WT CH. there are various stages leading up to the top stakes and if you qualify excellent in the stake you can use those letters after your dogs KC name.
In the PD stake in addition to the sections outlined above there is also bite work, chase and detain of a running criminal, recall from a running criminal, quarter (looking for the hiden criminal/s) and test of courage.

In order to take part dogs have to be KC reg'd either on the breed reg or the activity register, it is open to all breeds and cross breeds, including smaller dogs who can do smaller jumps in the lower stakes.
We also have a kennel club championships once a year, when all those who have won a ticket throughout the year come together and compete.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

for those who want to know something more about SAR dogs & their training via rewards, 
here is a helpful book which includes choosing a dog, basic training, etc - 
Amazon.com: Guide to Search and Rescue Dogs (0027011124181): Angela Eaton Snovak: Books

it was written by Angela Eaton [now Snovak], a CTP & graduate of the Karen Pryor Academy; 
Angela Eaton Snovak | Karen Pryor Academy 
she runs a dog-training business, Clicker Joy! in Colorado, USA, 
Clickerjoy Homepage 
and is also a fellow-member of the USA-apdt, tho we have never met. :001_smile:

BTW - she also trained her search-k9 using rewards-based training *before* writing her book. 
her first SAR-dog, Isis, was traditionally-trained & went on many missions; after Isis retired, Angela found Shakti, 
a 3-YO BSD-Malinois, who was reactive & needed behavior-modification to reduce that reactivity, or she would 
never be certified as a SAR-k9.

Angela discovered clicker-training, found it perfect for addressing her reactivity, and continued to use it 
for her SAR-training. *Angela had been training & working with dogs since 1976, & discovered clicker-training 
in 2005 as a direct result of Shakti's issues, which were made worse, not improved, by traditional training 
tools & methods... after more than 25-years of experience with dog-training & working-dogs, Angela was 
a highly-experienced trainer - not a novice.*

Scent Articles

the link above is the 2007 log-book of Colorado SAR-deployments - scroll down for the article by Angela 
about her discovery of the tool that would save Shakti's future as a SAR-dog & change her own training, 
forever, in the process.

*i can name many trainers who have changed from traditional-methods & tools to reward-based training; 
i cannot name one who has moved the other way, from reward-based to traditional, aversive methods.* 
no trainer i know or have heard about, moved from reward-based training back to the use of aversives.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cheryl Bartlett of Lochnaw Border Collies trained & titled her 4 dogs, now deceased, with rewards: 
OTCH LJ Brinn; OTCH Keri of Kitscotty; OTCH Besslin's Fine Chynna, and CDX Wisp.

Cheryl's partner reward-trained 2 other dogs to advanced-obedience titles: OTCH Allie & OTCH Whistlejack's Jynx on You.

BTW these are Canadian Kennel Club titles, very similar to the American Kennel Club's *Utility Dog* - UD - title. 
they were earned between the late-1980s to the late 1990s, before other CKC advanced-titles were designed. 
All of these dogs achieved HITs with scores of 197 and up; many were 199s.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

SLB said:


> Gundog trainers I have found are reluctant to come to the modern way of training. In every age
> you will find dinosaurs, I've been told. I even met a man who used to train gundogs - he used barbed wire
> & dead hedgehogs to keep the dogs mouth soft - my dog would refuse to pick anything up if I made him do that...


good grief, how very bizarre. in my youth, they sold feathered-skin covered dummies filled with stuffing 
& weighted to be similar to the live-bird, with PINS stuck thru them points-out, to teach a soft-mouth.

there are so many ways to teach a soft but secure grip, barbed-wire is mind-boggling - pins, of course, 
are not much of an improvement - at least the pin-dummies smelled like mallard, pheasant, etc, as they were 
covered with the bird-skin. Why would anyone want to teach a gundog to retrieve a hedgehog?

and wouldn't that make the dog likely to kill hedgehogs, in the future? Very puzzling. :blink:


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> good grief, how very bizarre. in my youth, they sold feathered-skin covered dummies filled with stuffing
> & weighted to be similar to the live-bird, with PINS stuck thru them points-out, to teach a soft-mouth.
> 
> there are so many ways to teach a soft but secure grip, barbed-wire is mind-boggling - pins, of course,
> ...


I thought the same - I mean I taught Louie a soft mouth by saying Ahah whenever he chewed the dummy or bit too hard.. He's not perfect but he isn't going to be worked..

I wouldn't even do it with pins.. if you teach a dog a soft mouth using horrible methods such as the hedgehog and forcing them to carry it - then there is a risk that that dog won't work again.

I know someone who knew a trainer who would send his dogs out for a dummy that wasn't there and he would point to a specific place - then when his dog wasn't looking he would drop the dummy - all so the dog learn't to trust him - I wouldn't. If I tell my dog there is something there and there isn't then I am working backwards and undoing my training. But I think this is OT


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

I teach soft mouth using an egg  I think you'll find gundog training has moved on.

But there you go again...................... generalising and stereotyping.


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

grandad said:


> I teach soft mouth using an egg  I think you'll find gundog training has moved on.
> 
> But there you go again...................... generalising and stereotyping.


not really - they were talking about people they have met. not you and your style of training.

But there you go again......


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

How do the police train then?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

grandad said:


> I teach soft mouth using an egg  I think you'll find gundog training has moved on.
> 
> But there you go again...................... generalising and stereotyping.


This is the first time I have said anything on the matter - so going on about stuff isn't really stereotyping or generalising - I am on a gundog forum where the trainers use E collars and all these methods too - so the gundog world is still very much in the dark ages - just some people are coming round to the modern way of training - as the post below the one I have quoted suggests - I didn't say anything about you or your methods - just people I have met etc... as it is I don't even know you.

Not ALL training and trainers have moved on to positive methods - I've been to two training classes where they were pretty much the dog does as it is told - a lot of of shouting, a lot of water been thrown about, a lot of corrections - and little treats and praising. Just because some trainers and some training methods have moved on - doesn't the whole world of that particular training has.

C&D I think police dog work is based more on reward than it used to be. The springers work for a ball as do the labs and GSD's from what I've seen on documentaries anyway - of course there is always the past methods being used also..

RE: the hedgehog - it was more to keep the mouth soft than to retrieve hedgehogs - due to the spikes... poor dogs, bet they were covered in fleas after that and it can't be good for their mouths..


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## edidasa (May 7, 2011)

Protection sports:
if only all the dogs bred for sport/police were capable of purely positive training. 
whilst in protection, dogs are in heightened states (often in aggression). Although a lot of the training can be done without corrections, dogs have to be proofed in real or extreme situations.

does anyone here integrate corrections with highly motivated training? isnt this the next 'era' beyond purely positive?

Most of the top protection sport dogs are trained this way.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> This is the first time I have said anything on the matter - so going on about stuff isn't really stereotyping or generalising - I am on a gundog forum where the trainers use E collars and all these methods too - so the gundog world is still very much in the dark ages - just some people are coming round to the modern way of training - as the post below the one I have quoted suggests - I didn't say anything about you or your methods - just people I have met etc... as it is I don't even know you.


I don't know where you train, but I agree with Grandad - gundog training has moved on. There are those still stuck in the dark ages, but then that could be said of every walk of life. E collars are not generally used in the UK (our dogs are bred to have the natural abilities and do not require the force fetch training that is the norm in the US.



> I know someone who knew a trainer who would send his dogs out for a dummy that wasn't there and he would point to a specific place - then when his dog wasn't looking he would drop the dummy - all so the dog learn't to trust him - I wouldn't. If I tell my dog there is something there and there isn't then I am working backwards and undoing my training. But I think this is OT


I think you (or the person you know) has misunderstood this exercise which is why it may not make sense to you. And as for using barbed wire to give a dog a soft mouth! A working gundog should be born with a soft mouth. Hard mouthed dogs tend to be made by incorrect training and handling 

I suspect you would be better finding better trainers. 

Leashedforlife - I think the UK equivalent of what you are talking about are Working Trials (completely different from gundog work and Field Trials).


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

This is of interest to me since I've trained my dogs for at least 15 years using PR approach and we've gotten Sch3, FH2 and now we are having the same success with French/Belgian Ring. And even before that, my gun dogs and obedience dogs were similarly trained. It's been my experience that whether its a soft brit/pointer or a hard dutch, physical punishment is not required.

Proofing doesn't demand force, just successful practice under progressive stress. Though mainly aimed at human performance, because non-humans react pretty much the same to stress, this book might be of interest as it explains what happens to the brain and why stress often results in non and under performance.

Choke: What the Secrets of the Brain Reveal about Getting It Right When You Have to


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> I don't know where you train, but I agree with Grandad - gundog training has moved on. There are those still stuck in the dark ages, but then that could be said of every walk of life. E collars are not generally used in the UK (our dogs are bred to have the natural abilities and do not require the force fetch training that is the norm in the US.
> 
> I think you (or the person you know) has misunderstood this exercise which is why it may not make sense to you. And as for using barbed wire to give a dog a soft mouth! A working gundog should be born with a soft mouth. Hard mouthed dogs tend to be made by incorrect training and handling
> 
> ...


This is a UK gundog forum I am on - I understood what they and this man mean't, I don't train with these people and I know gun dogs are born with soft mouths - he used these techniques to keep the dogs soft - not mouthy like some dogs can be. I think maybe you misread my posts or I didn't put enough information in. But on this UK gundog forum - they aren't particularly positive methods orientated. And I know a trainer (not gundog - although she does partake in gundog, obedience and PP work) who says many of the trainers she has met on her 50-60 years of training - are still in the dark ages.

Of course - I didn't say *all* training is in the dark ages - I said some and most - I didn't generalise and if I did I corrected myself. I have done lots of research into trainers - having my first gun dog and only found a handful that were Positive trainers - the rest were the dog should do as it's told because it respects me - trainers. What I have typed before - is what I or people I know have experienced...

I may only be young - but I do understand the concept of most dog training exercises


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Leashedforlife - I think the UK equivalent of what you are talking about are Working Trials
> (completely different from gundog work and Field Trials).


it's true that i was not looking for gundogs - i was looking for advanced OBEDIENCE titles. 
i don't know what the Kennel Club calls them, tho.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Obedience champion is the top obedience title I think but working trials are fairly similar to schutzhund, french ring etc without the bite work until the top level if that's what you mean


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

http://http://www.realdogs.co.uk/WorkingTrials.html

This link gives an overview of working trials in the UK. I don't know much about them, but I believe titles are achieved by reaching the required standards rather than competitively, like FT.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/270


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

edidasa said:


> Protection sports:
> if only all the dogs bred for sport/police were capable of purely positive training.
> whilst in protection, dogs are in heightened states (often in aggression). Although a lot of the training can be done without corrections, dogs have to be proofed in real or extreme situations.
> 
> ...


for anyone else who did not read the original post - 
this is for reward-trained TITLES & already-working military or search-k9s or police-k9s.

it is not to solicit or offer opinions on the training method, but to recognize dogs who were trained using pos-R.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> for anyone else who did not read the original post -
> this is for reward-trained TITLES & already-working military or search-k9s or police-k9s.
> 
> it is not to solicit or offer opinions on the training method, but to recognize dogs who were trained using pos-R.


I'm not aware of anything like this in the UK. Working Trial titles (and any other titles come to that), are awarded on attainment, regardless of the methods of training to achieve that level.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I'm not aware of anything like this in the UK. Working Trial titles (and any other titles come to that), are awarded on attainment, regardless of the methods of training to achieve that level.


i'm well-aware of that - in this thread, the *how* matters just as much as the *goal*... 
a working certificate as a SAR-dog, an advanced obedience title, a working-k9 for a military handler or cop? 
all laudable goals; this thread is to applaud the trainers who used rewards to get there.

Schutz, Mondio & Ringsport titles are sport, as opposed to working-certificates, but many police k9s are bought 
as titled bite-sport contenders.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

From a training-colleague & fellow dog-friendly trainer, Robin Sallie:

___________________________________________ 
A clicker OTCh was earned this weekend:
'Team Raika' (*OTCh Sprite's Eureka, UDX, TD, SchH-II* & handler Denise Fenzi) completed the requirements 
this weekend, & Denise reports that Raika's training has been thru positive-reinforcement from start to finish.
____________________________________________

this dog is a BSD-Tervuren bitch - here are videos of her performances:

LINK to Sprite's Eureka HIT -
BIS & HIT for the Week

Team Raika Update:
199 in Utility-B for first place and 14 points.
198.5 in Open-B for first place and 6 points.
Grand total: 106 points, plus High In Trial & High Combined.

YouTube - ‪Sprite's Raika CDX TD Schh2 - Part 1‬‏

YouTube - ‪Sprite's Raika CDX TD Schh2 - Part 2‬‏

working on details - 
YouTube - ‪Raika - working on crabbing and keeping rear in on left turns‬‏


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

OTCh is remarkably difficult to achieve, as it is not merely meeting a standard, 
but 'winning' in competition to accrue the points needed for the title.

an explanation - [9-years old, there *have been* clicker OTCh since]. 
but it does explain why they're so hard to get.
ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Clicker Trained OTCHs?

aboutus
Excerpts - 


> _Two of [Leslie Whitney's] students became the *first certified clicker trained SAR-dogs* for MESARD
> (Maine Search & Rescue Dogs). _[SNIP]
> _Leslie... trained the very *first clicker-trained OTCh Champion in the country*. Her OTCh Lab, Isis, was also
> nationally ranked #2 Lab & #12 All-Breeds for number of dogs defeated in competition, in just 7 months of competition,
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

OTCH

more on why it's such a hard title to obtain: 


> _ AKC first offered this title [OTCh] in 1977, and it has remained elusive to our breed for nearly 25 years.
> To claim this title of highest honor, a dog must earn 100 points from placements in the Open-B & Utility-B classes,
> as well as a *first* in each class & an additional *first* in either class under *three different judges*.
> Dogs must have already *earned their UD before they are eligible* to compete for points.
> ...


her first failed effort using traditional-methods... 


> _ I first became involved with the sport of obedience in 1989 with a black Cocker Spaniel, Breaker by name.
> Breaker, a very talented dog, earned her UD by 3 years. However, I managed to crush her enthusiasm
> for the sport along the way by using old-fashioned, less than positive training methods. It was very disheartening.
> I knew there had to be a better way. At 4 years [age], I decided to retire Breaker and try again. _


with a new puppy... 


> _ My goal was to set a foundation for a happy, animated attitude & a dog that loved to train.
> She loved to play training games. We sailed through Novice & Open, earning high scores & a lot of placements
> without much trouble. We were both having a great time. Stormy loved the sport & showing every bit as much as I did.
> The time we spent together training & playing this obedience game continued to strengthen our bond. _
> ...


almost 9-years of effort - but thankfully it was rewards-based, & thus more shared joy than drudgery. :001_smile:


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Re working trials.
If by titles you mean letters after the dogs kennel club name then yes they are attained in working trials at all championship levels.

So my WSD has the letters after her name CDex, UDex, WDex, TDex, my husdands has those plus PDex.
These letters mean they have gained 80% of the marks overall in the test and at least 70% in each section (for sections see my previous post).

When you qualify to work in TDex or PDex if you qualify and win you are awarded the ticket, 2 tickets mean your dog is a WT CH (working trials champion)

Re working trials being similar to the other dog sports such as schutzhund, ringsport etc. in my opinion they are not very similar at all, although I do not claim to know a lot about dog sports other than working trials, but the differences as i see them are.
Most people that take part in WT never compete at PD(the biting stuff), it is open to all types of dogs, so the dogs and handlers you get taking part are very different.
the tests are very different, ie the tracking and the jumps and the obedience, well all of it really.
Well that makes that as clear as mud then.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

edidasa said:


> whilst in protection, dogs are in heightened states (often in aggression). Although a lot of the training can be done without corrections, dogs have to be proofed in real or extreme situations.
> 
> does anyone here integrate corrections with highly motivated training? isnt this the next 'era' beyond purely positive?


Well I can think of a good example of control, discipline; that's certainly featuring a heightened and predatory state.

That's the Working Sheep Dog. Whether personal dog training advice given by an old school WSD trainer, pre-90's book written for Sheep Farmer, modern documentary (eg) Year of the Working Sheep Dog, modern training DVD written for recreational Shepherds (Andy Nickless) or Thomas Longton's YouTube channel, there's a consistency.

Pups, go from loving to chase, uncontrolled and gripping sheep, to astonishingly precisely controlled dogs able to work at a distance.

There's an emphasis on bonding with the dog, giving it good shared experiences out & about. The dogs are off leash, so Koehler style old school Obedience techniques are impossible.

Then in training the dog is encouraged to predatory chase, moving livestock, and learn to circle. The dogs are directed, the reward is the self rewarding chase activity, and removal from chance to work for repeated "gripping" or harming the Sheep the ultimate P-. At first they are uncontrolled, but by verbal praise & growly voice displeasure feedback or blocking with crook/training stick and exercises honing instinctive skills like balancing, the dogs become more & more precisely controlled; yet many can work looser and freer acting on own initiative, distances of 1/2 a mile in a gale are not uncommon.

Just watch the dogs with a good Shepherd, the calm control and the dogs desire to work for him, without coercion. These dogs have to react proportinately to some quite aggressive and larger animals, like Rams & Ewes with lambs; sometimes backing them into confined spaces like trailers for transporting. The breed standard specifically says dogs shall not be marked down for facial scars or broken teeth, these are "honourable" injuries in line of duty.

Every owner can experiment with similar training, by play and self rewarding activity.

Crufts winner, Richard Curtis has had a go to with not 1 but 2 champions Richard Curtis is a canine freestyle heelwork to music dancing dogs expert who provides workshops and the k9 freestyle dancing dog display team also television celebrity dog trainer



Richard Curtis said:


> Having had such a good time with Pogo on the last course I was looking forward to the lesson. Andy is a very patient and calm teacher so I was glad to have his experience on hand. When you have never taught something before you don't know if you are doing right or wrong so Andy was able to tell me where I should be. Now you might think it looks quite sedate wandering around a field with a dog herding the sheep, it doesn't look like you have to do that much well in training a sheepdog that's totally different.
> ..
> So after taking a deep breath I set off again and this time she was so much better. The calmer voice and body movements conveyed to the dog so she worked well, the stupid thing is I tell handlers the same thing in HTM bupogo practising her away command t of course when you are in the situation you cannot see it. By the way if you are a teacher of anything I totally recommend learning something that you have never done before as it gave me a new insight into what it must be like for a new handler coming into the dog sports I teach.


I guess if valuable Crufts champions are doing it, I won't have too much to worry about for my guy!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

please see the OP for an intro from Mr Deeds, a USA-apdt & Force-Free Trainers colleague. 
he wrote to me on what both of us feel is the coming watershed in reward-based training: working dogs 
and bitesport dogs, who often become personal-protection or police-k9s or military-k9s once they're titled, 
or are the parents of police-k9 & military-k9 candidates, as well as parents of bite-sport candidates.

Bob [a SAR-handler & trainer from Texas, USA] said i should google "Randy Hare", & watch some of his videos 
on YouTube. He said Randy is the hottest detection-trainer currently, with a method for scent-source reliability 
& scent-source dedication that is "the best [Bob has] EVER seen"... & he uses no compulsion/aversive methods 
to train. Mr Hare stopped training for 5 or 6 years, studied with folks like Karen Pryor [marker training], & came back 
to scent-detection, then developed an incredible science-based method.

Bob will spend most of June studying with? working with? Michael Ellis in Fairfield, Calif.
Michael is world-renowned as a decoy in Schutz, & developed a good marker training method for Schutzhund 
& Ring Sports. [He's the fella who opened Ed Frawley's eyes, he of Leerburg fame - or infamy. 
Ed/Leerburg now sells CLICKER-training DVDs for Schutz; the age of miracles is still with us! :thumbup:]

Mr Ellis still uses some compulsion (& he offers a 3-day course on the 'proper' use of a shock-collar 
& compulsion...  ) but he introduced a seed of pos-R into bitesports, where a clicker was previously scorned. 
Other people who promoted pos-R & reward-based training could be laughed at - Ellis has chops, 
so while he is not immune to criticism for moving from compulsion to motivation, he's harder to ridicule.

*there ARE folks in Ring, Mondio & Schutz training & proofing with rewards, & there ARE titles earned 
with reward-based training - but there aren't as yet 'big names' getting multiple titles on multiple dogs, 
& garnering many students & a following... yet. 
IMO that's the next step.* - terry

Bob said - 


> _It "ain't" there, yet... But it is getting there. It took me 15 years to transition from yank, crank, & shock
> to where I am, training-wise, today. The industry needs to change. We all know it. The way to do it is in the ring.
> It will happen.
> 
> - Bob Deeds _


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

The Breeder Andy Nickless is proud of this dog's achievements - Dog Agility Champion Denise Wilkinson's Grade 7 Olympia Finals Burgess Supa Dog Qualifier Tia



Denise Wilkinson said:


> Tia after collection? - You sure you want this bit? . . .
> 
> I've never in my life had such a naughty, determined little puppy.
> 
> ...


Incidentally update to the WSD post I made *postively-reinforcing* the point with additional info 


RobD-BCactive said:


> Crufts winner, Richard Curtis has had a go to with not 1 but 2 champions Richard Curtis is a canine freestyle heelwork to music dancing dogs expert who provides workshops and the k9 freestyle dancing dog display team also television celebrity dog trainer


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Emily Larlham better known as YouTube's kikopup, takes a stance against intimidation and makes instructional videos showing training without it and they're often very useful as example illustrations (for example YouTube - The BEST and FASTEST way to teach STAY), but now this trick surely qualifies as "advanced" :

The Lawrence Frederick Trick! - clicker dog training

New channel with even more videos channel "kikopupextras" - YouTube - Two dogs hug- dog training tricks, so cute!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Dog star daily have covered this subject with an "I Woofs" video DSD Video iWoofs 5 Protection Sports (*DSD* : Dog Star Daily)

Discussion considers protections sports and issues surrounding training dogs to bite; also some observations which are true of any dog sport or dedicated ownership providing activities.

Note that there are concerns about poorly informed ppl _aping_ such, but using "horrible techniques" and "poor training". Some of Terry's views aired are confirmed about 9:30 in, commenting on protections sports in SF Bay area.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - ‪Cisu, Belgian Tervuren, Open B, County-Wide DTC, March 27, 2011, Petaluma, CA‬‏


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

from fellow-trainer *Jodi Brunson* of Spring Lake, Michigan:

"We trained dogs for the DEA & our Police dogs are working for the Oregon State Police, 
the Royal Canadian Mounted-Police, several local police-depts & on the Warm Springs Indian Reservation. 
All were trained positively!" 

note: 
DEA = Drug-Enforcement & Alcohol; the dogs may be contraband-detectors or [more often] dual-job: 
criminal apprehension [clear a bldg, pursue a fleeing suspect, bark-N-hold, etc] AS WELL AS detect contraband 
[drugs, weapons, explosives, etc].


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## Guy2932 (Jun 23, 2011)

I have trained my last two police dogs using positive reinforcement. No shouting, slapping,hitting or worse. No check chains, prong collars,electric collars or any other device aimed at causing pain,fear or distress. Just good old hot dog sausages, ball on a rope and tug toy.

For the purists I do have a verbal conditioned negative punisher. Not associated with pain and discomfort. Just a verbal noise that I make when I deny him a treat that he tried to snatch. I use the noise everytime I deny him anything and it ends up meaning "what you are doing or about to do isn't going to be rewarding". 

I only use this noise once the dog has been trained so technically they are trained using purely positive reinforcement.


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## Guy2932 (Jun 23, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> this thread is not about OPINIONS - but dogs who work as SAR [search & rescue], police-k9, military-k9,
> or successfully compete in bite-sports [Schutzhund, Mondio or Ring-sport], & who were trained using rewards -
> EDIT: or who have earned Advanced titles in obedience from a kennel club /registry, also trained via rewards.
> 
> ...


I have trained my last two police dogs using positive reinforcement. No shouting, slapping,hitting or worse. No check chains, prong collars,electric collars or any other device aimed at causing pain,fear or distress. Just good old hot dog sausages, ball on a rope and tug toy.

For the purists I do have a verbal conditioned negative punisher. Not associated with pain and discomfort. Just a verbal noise that I make when I deny him a treat that he tried to snatch. I use the noise everytime I deny him anything and it ends up meaning "what you are doing or about to do isn't going to be rewarding".

I only use this noise once the dog has been trained so technically they are trained using purely positive reinforcement.


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