# People who use natural treatments?



## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

Hello,
I'd like to meet people who use natural treatments for their dogs.
I am planning to use homeopatic nosodes instead of vaccines and have arranged a consulattion with Dr.Day at the Alternative Veterinary Medicine Centre. 
At the Dog show I met a lady who represented the Rodesian Ridgebacks. She told me she treats her dogs with homeopathy, they eat raw diet and she uses diatomaceous earth to deoworm. She also showed me results from tests to show that her dogs being on that regime are clear from all kinds of worms and parasites.

What is you experience with your dogs? How do you treat them? Do you have a good homeopatic vet? I would like to find more vets and hopefully one whois near where I am.

Thank you.
Teo


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

I flea treat my dogs naturally with garlic, apple cider vinegar and tea tree oil, and I've always found it to be hugely effective, and they also eat a natural raw diet.

I haven't been tempted to stray away from conventional wormers yet though - with my dogs lifestyles the way they are (living rurally, and exercising in fields that are heavy with livestock and wildlife) and eating the diet they do (includes lots of wild caught rabbits), I feel happier sticking with trusted tablet wormers for now at least.

The one thing I will never be persuaded by though is standalone homeopathic medicines - I will always vaccinate my dogs conventionally, and any homepathic remedies I may use, will be alongside traditional veterinary medicine.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

I spoke to the Dr.'s receptionist and she told me they also recommend chemical dewormers. Which ones do you use?
I am not taking the desision to use nosodes lightly and will probably worry either way.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I feed raw, i don't vaccinate, and they are wormed with diatomaceous earth, they have garlic and ACV for fleas to


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

teoroy said:


> I spoke to the Dr.'s receptionist and she told me they also recommend chemical dewormers. Which ones do you use?
> I am not taking the desision to use nosodes lightly and will probably worry either way.


I use Panacur, Drontal, Cestem and Plerion. The lads are wormed four times a year, and I alternate between those brands.

I have nothing against homeopathic medicines, it's just not for me


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

pogo said:


> I feed raw, i don't vaccinate, and they are wormed with diatomaceous earth, they have garlic and ACV for fleas to


Pogo to you go to a local vet or to a homeopath?


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

SixStar said:


> I use Panacur, Drontal, Cestem and Plerion. The lads are wormed four times a year, and I alternate between those brands.
> 
> I have nothing against homeopathic medicines, it's just not for me


I understand completely! Thank you. I will look into those brands. I am a first time dog owner and everything is so overwhelming!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

People who do not vaccinate and worm their dogs with medicines which have been proven to work are irresponsible. They are risking the health of not only their owns dogs, but mine, too.

"Alternative" medicines are alternative for a reason. They have been disproven.

Do you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work?

MEDICINE!

(apologies to Mr T. Minchin)


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

Old Shep said:


> People who do not vaccinate and worm their dogs with medicines which have been proven to work are irresponsible. They are risking the health of not only their owns dogs, but mine, too.
> 
> "Alternative" medicines are alternative for a reason. They have been disproven.
> 
> ...


Great post. I will always vaccinate my dogs.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

teoroy said:


> Pogo to you go to a local vet or to a homeopath?


Local vet, but they except my choices


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> People who do not vaccinate and worm their dogs with medicines which have been proven to work are irresponsible. They are risking the health of not only their owns dogs, but mine, too.
> 
> "Alternative" medicines are alternative for a reason. They have been disproven.
> 
> ...


naaawww shame i don't care..... :devil:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Why did you even bother to write that? What did that contribute to the discussion (other than proving you are an ignorant ****)?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

That word was "[email protected]" by the way


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Why did you even bother to write that? What did that contribute to the discussion (other than proving you are an ignorant ****)?


It was about as useful as you lovely post calling us all irresponsible, and you are the tw*t my dear :dita:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Er...no. I put my views accross and justified them with an explaination.

You, on the other hand, merely debased the discussion with a cheap, petty insult.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Er...no. I put my views accross and justified them with an explaination.
> 
> You, on the other hand, merely debased the discussion with a cheap, petty insult.


excuse me, re read this thread, who insulted who first by calling me a tw*t....

Oh that would be YOU.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

If that's the best you can do in an effort to promote your views on this subject, it's truly pathetic.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> If that's the best you can do in an effort to promote your views on this subject, it's truly pathetic.


i wasn't even remotely trying to promote anything deary


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Heidi is wormed with Diatomaceous Earth. 
Had puppy vaccs but has been boosted with nosodes.
I feed her wet food.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

If you are looking for natural remedies these resources may help

Acupuncture

ABVA

Bowen Technique

Bowen Technique Therapy Therapists Treatment UK - Poor mobility (multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, surgery)

Herbalism

British Association of Veterinary Herbalists

Homeopathy

British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons | British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons

Hydrotherapy

Find a Registered Canine Hydrotherapist or Hydrotherapy Centre

Massage

holistic dog care | natural dog care | canine massage therapy centre

McTimoney Chiropractic

McTimoney Animal Association

McTimoney Corley

The Association of McTimoney-Corley Spinal Therapists

Osteopathy

The Society of Osteopaths in Animal Practice

Physiotherapy

Home

For worming you may wish to look here

Worm Count Laboratories


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

I have to say,its irresponsible,to say the least,not to vaccinate your dogs.
You would soon call other dog owners fit to burn,if your dogs caught a disease from their dog.
You are leaving your dogs vulnerable to disease.
Its not about personal insults,just facts.
Pogo,you seem to like rubbing people up the wrong way.Would you do it to peoples faces?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

kathateria said:


> I have to say,its irresponsible,to say the least,not to vaccinate your dogs.
> You would soon call other dog owners fit to burn,if your dogs caught a disease from their dog.
> You are leaving your dogs vulnerable to disease.
> Its not about personal insults,just facts.
> Pogo,you seem to like rubbing people up the wrong way.Would you do it to peoples faces?


Yes I would do exactly the same to people's faces, but hey shame you clearly don't no me, as I do not rub people up the wrong way

Actually it is not irresponsible to not vaccinate it's personal choice I do no believe they are needed and can do more harm then good, I am not leaving th vulnerable and I do not care what you do to your dogs that's your choice.

Why should I take it lying down when we get called irresponsible just because I bring my dogs up differently?


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

Out of interest,are your dogs insured? 
Surely any insurance company would expect vaccinations to be up to date?
They do find any loop holes they can,to prevent you making a claim,even if its not a disease,which caused your dog to be ill.
Also,all kennels around here,wont allow your dogs to stay there,if they arent vaccinated.
Dont you feed raw? 
What would happen if (heaven forbid) there was a rabies out break,and your dog ate wildlife? A tasty dead rabbit,might be wonderful for your dog, but who knows if it died from rabies.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

Hello all, 
I believe that homeopathy will offer a protection similar to vaccines. It is a difficult choice to make but for example, the breed I am going to have (chinese crested) are very prone to atopic disease and skin diseases and from my understanding vaccinating them before exposure to allergens can make it more likely to happen. It worries me that as such an early age 8-10 weeks they are given 5 in one vaccines twice. In real life they would never encounter 5 diseases at the same time and along with all the preservatives in a vaccine this is putting quite a burden to a young organism. I am not saying I will never vaccinate but for now I think I will go with homeopathy. The vet I am going to use is a fully qualified vet and not some back street pratitioner.

About the AVMC

Wildlife- we live in a town and all raw meat will come from a the butcher.

I don't know about insurance. I met so many people who don't insure for reasons that when young dogs don't need it and when old it gets too expensive. I need to check what kind of insurance will suit our family income and what options there are.

Regarding DE I was told it is not a good idea to give it constantly.

How to apply Apple Cider Vinegar? Is it topically?

Thanks.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

kathateria said:


> Out of interest,are your dogs insured?
> Surely any insurance company would expect vaccinations to be up to date?
> They do find any loop holes they can,to prevent you making a claim,even if its not a disease,which caused your dog to be ill.
> Also,all kennels around here,wont allow your dogs to stay there,if they arent vaccinated.
> ...


yes my dogs ARE insured, perhaps you should read any small print...

My dogs cannot be kennelled i have a seriously people aggressive dog who cannot be left with anyone else
Yes i feed raw, and they eat tasty dead rabbits all the time

You are trying to start an argument for the sake of arguing, i assume you have missed all the raw feeding arguments Oldshep has caused


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

kathateria said:


> Dont you feed raw?
> 
> What would happen if (heaven forbid) there was a rabies out break,and your dog ate wildlife? A tasty dead rabbit,might be wonderful for your dog, but who knows if it died from rabies.


You'll find most dogs in the UK are not vaccinated against Rabies.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

I set out thinking along the chemical route for everything and Heidi had her puppy vaccs. When she was due her boosters, she had an ongoing tum upset and I wasnt prepared to risk getting her done. She went outside the 3 month deadline and would have needed to start again. I wasnt prepared to do that.

With hindsight, I feel that her initial vaccs could have been responsible for her sensitive tum and she tends to be itchy.

It's a very difficult call to make. Especially with vets advising people with immunity compromised dogs not to have them vaccinated. Wonder how their immune system became challenged in the first place? There is also the pup's natural immunity from it's mother. Still active when most are vaccinated.

When frontline stopped working, I wasnt prepared to "up the anti" to something stronger so I now spray the house annually and spot on with Advantage a couple of times a year.

Wormers, with her sensitive tum I dont want to over use chemicals and as she snacks on rabbit pooh regularly, prefer to use DE which is an ongoing protection. Especially as my friend who chemically worms her horses regularly, gave them DE and found there was a worm burden. I use DE 2 or 3 times a week and find that perfectly adequate.

There will always be arguments for and against. We have to do what we genuinely feel to be the best and not everyone will agree with it. Far better we put our points across and leave the OP's to make their decision than arguing the toss amongst ourselves when we have already decided.


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

I feed my dogs Raw.
Worm using DE.
Flea using garlic.
They are insured.
They have routine vaccinations every year, as I believe this is a good idea.
(I think if anyone has concerns about other peoples vaccination regime, they should ensure that their own dog is vaccinated, which will protect their dog from disease even if they come into contact with unvaccinated dogs.)


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

kate_7590 said:


> I feed my dogs Raw.
> Worm using DE.
> Flea using garlic.
> They are insured.
> ...


How much and how often do you feed the Garlic?


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> "Alternative" medicines are alternative for a reason. They have been disproven.


 Can you provide documentation to back this up? Or is it your views!?

I personally will not keep pumping myself or my dogs full of un necessary drugs....period!


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

Put it another way, would you vaccinate your child?


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

kathateria said:


> Put it another way, would you vaccinate your child?


Nope


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## kathateria (Nov 11, 2012)

That says alot


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

kathateria said:


> That says alot


If there was a homeopathic alternative, then I would use that every time. And do we re vaccinate our kids EVERY year....no!

Wrong quote sorry!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

kathateria said:


> That says alot


what that my views don't match yours?

Surprisingly it doesn't make either view wrong :dita:


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

my pup has been vaccinated but I personally don't have a problem with other people choosing not to vaccinate their animals , or their children  like anything different people will look at all the evidence and research and make up their own minds  there is no guarantee that just because your dog/child has been vaccinated that it wont get the disease anyway &#8230; and what about the people/animals that have been harmed by vaccines ?? nothing is that black and white imo 

might look into the natural wormers /flea treatment ect actually I hate usuing chemicals for everything 
i'll always be unconvinced about homeopathy though  expensive water imo  lol


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> "Alternative" medicines are alternative for a reason. They have been disproven.





pearltheplank said:


> Can you provide documentation to back this up? Or is it your views!?


By definition, alternative medicine is any medicine or treatment that lacks both scientific validation and evidence to prove it works. However; this does not necessarily mean that it does not have a role to play as a type of treatment; even if is complementary. Remember; there's a difference between 'disproven' and 'unproven'.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

hippymama said:


> my pup has been vaccinated but I personally don't have a problem with other people choosing not to vaccinate their animals , or their children  like anything different people will look at all the evidence and research and make up their own minds  there is no guarantee that just because your dog/child has been vaccinated that it wont get the disease anyway  and what about the people/animals that have been harmed by vaccines ?? nothing is that black and white imo
> 
> might look into the natural wormers /flea treatment ect actually I hate usuing chemicals for everything
> i'll always be unconvinced about homeopathy though  expensive water imo  lol


Hyppymamma, it is not actually that expensive. My initial phone consult will be £25. And I will be sent a bottle with the nosodes which I have to give to the puppy over a period of 18 months (that is £28).After that I will give only 4 pills a year. This is with regards to homeoprophylactic "vaccination". I have a personal experience with homeopathy. Not an extensive one but for example Arnica is incredibly effective after injury.
There are scientific studies on effectiveness of homeopathy as a whole (many at that!) but the vet said that the nosodes have not been scietifically proven. This doesn't mean they are not effective but that comprehensive studies have not been done for different reasons.
I guess those who choose to vaccinate their pets will be with a piece of mind that they are protected and shouldn't worry.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2012)

kathateria said:


> I have to say,its irresponsible,to say the least,not to vaccinate your dogs.


Like everything its not a simple black & white issue.

Titers have become more popular here stateside, so while you may have folks not vaccinating, they are being responsible about checking to make sure their dog is not infecting others.

I do minimal vaccines on my dogs (and kids). Many vaccines offered here have not been proven to be effective in preventing the disease and can definitely be rather damaging.

We treat fleas & ticks with essential oils, but being in a heartworm central, I don't dare not give them a chemical preventative for that.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

So I am getting the impression that it is most important to deworm a puppy and whej adult to test to see if it is needed. Am I correct?
Re, vaccinations, Where do you guys titre?
Thank you.


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

kathateria said:


> How much and how often do you feed the Garlic?


1 capsule a day


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

teoroy said:


> So I am getting the impression that it is most important to deworm a puppy and whej adult to test to see if it is needed. Am I correct?
> Re, vaccinations, Where do you guys titre?
> Thank you.


not necessarily most people worm and then flea if they see them.

You can get the titre tested at the vets


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

kathateria said:


> Out of interest,are your dogs insured?
> Surely any insurance company would expect vaccinations to be up to date?
> They do find any loop holes they can,to prevent you making a claim,even if its not a disease,which caused your dog to be ill.
> Also,all kennels around here,wont allow your dogs to stay there,if they arent vaccinated.
> ...


Choosing not to vaccinate your dog against any disease does not invalidate your insurance per se, however it may mean that you are not covered for any disease that could have been prevented by vaccination.

However, NOBODY knows if their dog is ACTUALLY covered or not until and unless they have a titre test (as in rabies) as some dogs, like some people, are "non responders" and so can contract the disease even if inoculated as the vaccine did not "take".

Many kennels will accept dogs which are titre tested or have nosodes, it depends on their individual policy.

In the UK rabies is not a problem.

HTH


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Some other sites that may be of interest if you are interested in natural therapies are:

Canine Health Concern - Putting your dogs health first

Which has extensive information on vaccination, feeding etc.

Also

Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol

There are lots more on the net but these are a good start for exploring pros and cons of natural therapies, vaccines etc.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

I know the first one. Will check the second one. Thank you.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Barker Bausell, R., Snake Oil Science: The Truth About Complementary and Alternative Medicine, Oxford University Press, 2007

Ramey, D., Rollin, B., Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine Considered, Iowa State Press, 2004

Singh, S., Ernst, E., Trick or Treatment: The Undeniable Facts About Alternative Medicine, W.W. Norton & Company, 2008

AVMA Considers Stances on Homeopathy and Livestock Handling

Dietary supplements: Manufacturing troubles widespread, FDA inspections show - Chicago Tribune

I could provide many, many more references, but I have found that, unfortunatly a lot (well, most, actually) supporters of "alternative" medicine are amazingly closed minded and will not even read - let alone consider- anything which points to the inefficacy and dangers of following this cult.

I would genuinely *LOVE *to be proved wrong and to have even one supporter read some of the evidence and be able to discuss it in a rational way (I, before you all jump on me, have actually read the available scientific evidence for CAM and keep up to date with all the available published data: and remain unconvinced.)

I come to my conclusions by reading and considering ALL the evidence-supportive or not- and coming to a rational conclusion.

Any supporters of CAM I have come accross on here, on the other hand, have always resorted to petty name calling and bullying and appear to be unable to grasp even the basics of reasoned argument. I don't come here for a mud slinging.

Go on. Make my day. Prove me wrong.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

I don't think we are. Both modern medicine and homeopathy have their place and we should embrace them both.
This is a very recent publication in a prestigeous journal. Re: Good medicine: homeopathy | BMJ


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I will read your if you read mine


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

How about the WSAVA guidelines that actually go against vaccinating your dog annually for everything going 

http://www.wsava.org/PDF/Misc/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf

In fact their recommendation is following puppy and first annual boosters, that the interval for individual vaccinations should be three years or longer, and the leptospirosis vaccination isn't considered one of the core vaccinations unless it is endemic in your area


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

My vet (who follows the vaccin guidelines) doesn't vaccinate for everything every year.

I'm still reading, Teoroy. I'll get back later.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

That was not a published paper. It was a comment in the BMJ.

The results of the trial and the comments made by this writer are highly suspect for a number of extremely obvious reasons:

the results were published in "Homeopathy" which is not a proper peer-reviewed journal. 

if the results were are awe-inspiring as claimed, why were they not accepted/rejected by the established medical journals?

Could it be because 

*there are no controls in the study?

*it was non-randomised

*homeopathy is actually nothing. It's giving nothing. There is not even one molecule of anything other than water, in homeopathic "medicine". This is not just my view. This is what homeopths will tell you.


All in all, if this was as brilliant a breakthrough as they claim, why has it not been rolled out worldwide as real breakthroughs do.

Thank you for posting a link worth discussion and for being reasonable. Have you read any of the links I posted?


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi OldShep. 
There is no need to antagonise ourselves and bear in mind I am not a specialist, just a person looking for the truth. I will read in detail your links later. I am aware that there are far more suggestions in the scientific journals about homeopathy not working. (I guess there are far more variables than with a straight forward chemical substance).

I have had experience with homeopathy treatment in my family and no matter how much I wished it worked it didn't.

With regards to puppy vaccines what I am concerned about are the side effects of the vaccines. I don't know if the nosodes will work but I am trusting the vets experience. I guess I am taking my chanses.

Is this something you might be interested in?:
http://www.alternativevet.org/Clinical Trial - Dogs K-C WS009-07.pdf

And on the funny note- Do you think the Royals are being fulled by being treated with homeopathy?

PS. I was so pleasantly surpriced to find out that there are homeopatic hospitals in the UK and I think they are under NHS.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

My vet offers a homeopathic service, and i have used it alongside conventional and proven medicine with some anecdotal success.

I dont think i'd ever use such things over tried and tested drugs though, but im happy to as a last port of call.

Drugs, and a lot of them, have enabled my dog to have atleast an extra 6 years of 'healthy' and excellent quality life. Im skeptical that alternatives would have offered him the same.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I think it's important to keep your brain in gear whenever you are contemplaining any particular avenue of treatment. The real problem lies in those who are evangelistic about "alternative" medicines/treatment and seem to have a conspiracy theory about conventional medicines.

The aknowledged 2 most important advances in medicine of all time- without a doubt- are clean water and vaccines. Vaccines have saved millions of lives and without them, I doubt we would be here having this conversation, because our predececors would not have survived.

As someone once said (and stolen by Richard Dawkins, the zoologist) "keep and open mind-but not so open your brain falls out!"


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

I will certainly read the links. I am not one who will refuse conventional drugs and im not saying they dont have their place but if there's an alternative, then I will go with that.

Maybe I'm guilty of lumping everything into homeopathy when perhaps I shouldn't. By that I mean natural products as well, and different treatments, maybe more so

For example, I was diagnosed with 'frozen shoulder' by the doc who gave me anti inflams and told me I could have steroid injections but dont expect it to be right for a couple of years as it was so bad. I took Bromelain as my anti inflam, toddled off to the chiropractor and within two months I had full mobility. 

Given conventional, I would have been taking these drugs for several years, that can't be good for your body!


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

I am printing and reading the links OldShep. 
Just to add to pearltheplank's experience.My daughter has been diagnosed with atopic dermatitis. I was at a loss for 2 years what to do. I was doing all kinds of things like wrapping up with bandages and cream from the doctors. Didn't want to touch steroids. Something that has put her completely on remission is high dose evening primrose oil. A food supplement.


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## mollydog07 (May 26, 2012)

I think both these treatments can work hand in hand.drugs come from plants.modified to suit, who would have thought the chemical in hash that increases appetite is being trialed to people ill with poor appetite.I personally use noseodes,my dogs are now classed as elderly,7 and 10,their breeder who has been breeding shitzu,s for well over 20yr does not advocate conventinal immunisation.i made my decision after remembering back to the 1970,s,as a dog owner then vets dealt with farm yard animals!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

mollydog07 said:


> I think both these treatments can work hand in hand.drugs come from plants.modified to suit, who would have thought the chemical in hash that increases appetite is being trialed to people ill with poor appetite.I personally use noseodes,my dogs are now classed as elderly,7 and 10,their breeder who has been breeding shitzu,s for well over 20yr does not advocate conventinal immunisation.i made my decision after remembering back to the 1970,s,as a dog owner then vets dealt with farm yard animals!


why did remembering back to the 70s have a bearing on your decision?

You do realise that homeopathic "treatments" contain no active ingredients? That's even according to homeopaths. However, production control is famously lax, and there have been numerous instances of homeopathis "treatments" being found to contain paracetamol and steroids. I can provide links if anyone likes.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've not read all of these papers myself, just skimmed through some of them, but they do make for interesting reading.

Vaccine research - Pet Welfare Alliance

http://www.sepeap.org/secciones/documentos/pdf/retrovirus_endogeno.pdf

Stunning Cuban experiences on leptospirosis - European Committee for Homeopathy


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

thanks for the links!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for the links SL. Interesting stuff about lepto. As I live by a farm with cattle, mud and rats, I have to ensure my dogs are as protected from lepto as possible. From the lit I have read so far (but I have still to read your links), there are so many serotypes that can be carried (and there are not vaccines for them all) it is difficult to know which serotype is prevelent in your own area, therefor, your dog may contract a serotype for which he has not been vaccinated or there is no vaccine available. However, with the relevent vaccine, the disease process can be shortened, or even prevented. It is such a horrible disease, I make sure my dogs are vaccinated at the appropriate intervals.

Thanks, again.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Thanks for the links SL. Interesting stuff about lepto. As I live by a farm with cattle, mud and rats, I have to ensure my dogs are as protected from lepto as possible. From the lit I have read so far (but I have still to read your links), there are so many serotypes that can be carried (and there are not vaccines for them all) it is difficult to know which serotype is prevelent in your own area, therefor, your dog may contract a serotype for which he has not been vaccinated or there is no vaccine available. However, with the relevent vaccine, the disease process can be shortened, or even prevented. It is such a horrible disease, I make sure my dogs are vaccinated at the appropriate intervals.
> 
> Thanks, again.


I have cattle outside my back garden, from what I understand and have read, not only can vaccinating against leptospirosis be ineffective, and my vet has first hand experience of this, he tried to argue with me what a horrible disease it is, and how he was treating a dog with it, and then went on to admit that the dog had actually been vaccinated but still caught it. But a dog that is vaccinated can pass lepto on to humans. It's one I won't be using with any of mine again, and I am thinking about looking into the nosode route.

Edited to add, I happened to be reading a thread on FB where Catherine O'Driscoll has been posting a few interesting snippets and links this morning, so thought I'd share on this thread, as I know people were after more information.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I am thinking about looking into the nosode route.


If your dogs drink tap water they're just as 'protected' against any diseases as they would be if you used nosodes.

Save your money.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> If your dogs drink tap water they're just as 'protected' against any diseases as they would be if you used nosodes.
> 
> Save your money.


I doubt it, but each to their own, I've used homeopathic remedies for different things in the past and they have been effective. I also include a lot of ingredients in my dogs' diets to help promote healthy joints, as cancer preventatives, and for a variety of other health benefits.

I think it's up to the individual to research and use a certain type of preventative/treatment for their pets that they believe is safe and effective. I wouldn't dream of criticising someone who made their own decision for the well being of their pet based on their own experiences and research.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't think it's quite as simple as that, SL.

Providing the animal has been vaccinated for the actual serotype they have been exposed to they will work. They may not prevent the disease, but they will lessen it. The problem is, unless the infecting host is tested and the serotype identified (impossible to do in a "field" enviornment) there is no way of knowing the serotype to vaccinate against (althopugh there is not a vaccine for all serotypes).

It is a really facinating subject and I will contiue to look into it, but please look into what homeopathy actually is before you go down that route.

Evidence for homeopathy - RationalWiki


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I don't think it's quite as simple as that, SL.
> 
> Providing the animal has been vaccinated for the actual serotype they have been exposed to they will work. They may not prevent the disease, but they will lessen it. The problem is, unless the infecting host is tested and the serotype identified (impossible to do in a "field" enviornment) there is no way of knowing the serotype to vaccinate against (althopugh there is not a vaccine for all serotypes).
> 
> ...


As far as I'm aware many of the lepto serovars are developed in the states, which is one reason I wouldn't bother using it. It's not generally recommended in the US either by many vets, despite them having a lot more water and cows.

I have read into homeopathic treatments before, and constantly read what's put before me from both sides. Unfortunately it's a fairly one sided argument as far as vaccinations go. Vets make money, the companies that make the vaccinations make money, and some of the governing bodies associated with looking into adverse effects are also controlled at least in part, by the companies that make the vaccines. So who do you believe?

I suggest for anyone interested they take a look at publications by Catherine O'Driscoll, who has done a lot of research into homeopathic treatments.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

I like Catherine O'Driscoll. One can become friends with her on FB and read many related posts which I find quite elightening.

Just for info- I spoke to the alternative vet tonight as a consultation before sending me the nosodes.What he told me was that there is not scientific evidence that homeopathy works but in his experience and that of many other people it does. Homeopathy doesn't produce antibodies and that is why it can not be measured. His opinion is that it gives the B cells some sort of information about the disease. (I hope I have explained it clearly as English is not my first language). He also said that he used to be a firm believer in vaccinations so much so that he used to give out free vaccines to farmers dogs. One of the things I remembered that he said changed his mind was seeing the increase within 3 months of vaccination of onset of chronic dieseases . His own pets and animals are protected only with nosodes.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Who is Catherine O'Driscoll?

I raise money for The Brooke (a huge equine charity). They spend a fair ammount on vaccines. All the available scientific evidence point firmly in favour of vaccination as a means of protecing livestock from disease (in general).

I think the argument that everyone has a vested interest is a bit of a red herring. Huge ammounts of research, not funded by drug companies, or vets in general practice, is available which supports their use*

*I'm talking in general. I'm open minded about the efficacy of some being possibly exaggerated.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

She's the one whos dogs died after vaccinations and after that she researched the subject and founded Canine health.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've been chatting with Catherine on and off whilst posting the links she provided, she is a really lovely and approachable person. A few more snippets of information, Catherine's given me permission to cross post some of the information she posted on the thread on facebook:

" I must point out, however, that it is absolutely not true that current vaccines for dogs are any safer than previous vaccines.

For example, a research paper came out in 2010 showing that there is a feline retrovirus (RD-114) contaminating several brands of distemper vaccines in the UK and Japan (which are the only two places the researchers looked). Retroviruses can cause cancer and leukaemia, but these illnesses won't arise immediately. They take about five years to develop. The British Veterinary Medicines Directorate attended a meeting at European level, where it was decided not to address the problem immediately. Although it would be easy to screen the retrovirus out, it would take at lest ten years to license non-contaminated vaccines. Therefore, anyone vaccinating now risks injecting cancer and/or leukaemia into their dog. Unfortunately, this is but one of the risks.

Michael Day, senior lecturer in Veterinary Pathology at the University of Bristol, and a member of the WSAVA Vaccine Guidelines Group, states that: Environmental influences are crucial to the expression of immune mediated disease and the most important of these is likely to be exposure to microbial antigens following natural infection or vaccination." Mr Day divides immune mediated disease into four main groups  hypersensitivity diseases [inflammation], autoimmune diseases, immune system neoplasia [tumour formation] and immunodeficiency diseases.

Apart from cuts, limps and bumps, Mr Day is illustrating that practically every illness suffered by dogs can be caused by vaccines. He stated this in 'In Practice' in 1998, but since then, there has been a tremendous body of continuing research into vaccine adverse effects. Cancer, brain damage, epilepsy, arthritis ... some 80 autoimmune diseases ... almost everything that walks on four legs into a veterinary practice. And the biggest problem is that not all of these show themselves immediately after the shot. Vaccine reactions happen days, months and even years later.

There are many mechanisms which make vaccines risky. The fact that they are cultivated on monkey, dog, cat, hamster, etc., brains and kidneys means that they can cause autoimmune diseases, where vaccinated individuals attack atheir own tissues and biochemmicals. They also bring their own contaminants such as retroviruses.

Vaccines such as the leptospirosis and kennel cough vaccines carry adjuvants such as aluminium and mercury, which cause inflammation, are neuro-toxins, and up-regulate the allergic response. Dogs who are vaccinated against lepto can have raised IgE antibody responses for five years post-vaccination. The implication is increased allergies. Aluminium has been found to affect the P53 oncogene, which means cancer.

These are just some examples. There is much more.

I also notice that there have been some comments about alternative therapies not working. This is a big subject and not too easy to answer properly here, as I've already taken a lot of space, but I can say that in some cases they actually do. (Notice 'some cases'.) Quite a lot of alternative therapy is used to try to deal with the unwanted effects of vaccines. Sometimes it's successful, but sometimes the damage is too severe. Unfortunately, conventional therapy fails here, too.

I'm putting on evening talks and workshops around the country next year as it is so much more effective to share the science face-to-face than asking everyone to read books. If anyone would like to know more about the lecture schedule, please message me on fb with your email address. Thanks."

" I have to be honest and say that we differ in our views very fundamentally. I do not use vaccines on my dogs. It isn't because I don't care about them, or am negligent. It's because having studied vaccine adverse effects for the last 20 years, I believe - based on a very deep study of the science - that they are causing more disease than they are preventing. We are swapping a hope (that our dogs won't contract the disease we vaccinate them against) for cancer (kills 1 in 3 dogs now), epilsepsy (visits 1 in 100 dogs), arthritis (1 in 100), brain damage ... who knows how many dogs are brain damaged from vaccines? The aggressive ones, the timid ones, the ones with obsessive behaviours, the ones who appear stupid, etc? And the problem is that there is no guarantee that vaccines will actually protect our dogs. When outbreaks occur, they always seem to affect both vaccinated and non-vaccinated dogs. As for the 'snake oil' assertion, well .... it's hard to answer that because your bias is already pretty obvious! You're not asking me to talk about how some of the therapies are beneficial, you're challenging me to defend them when it appears your ears are already closed. I could tell you, for example, how I cured my hayfever in 3 minutes 14 years ago using an energy therapy. I could tell you about my dog Sophie's deformed arthritic paws normalising in front of my eyes using that therapy - without touching her, without any lotions or potions .... but would you believe me? Would you be asking for double blind trials and peer review papers?"

"Also, I could tell you how my two 9-month old pups on nosodes didn't cough or sneeze once when they shared nose-to-nose contact with my three older, vaccinated, dogs with kennel cough. I could tell you about the studies which showed that the nosodes were effective. If you're anything like the others who have called nosodes snake oils, you'd say my anecdotal experience is of no worth, and that the trials showing the effectiveness of nosodes weren't conducted properly. And then you'll say that vaccines are great, rigorously tested, properly regulated, etc., and I'd have to disagree. We'd achieve nothing by arguing back and forth, because we are in different camps and see the world from different lookout points. I absolutely respect your right to hold these views, but I can't see how we could bridge the gap between our understanding of the way things are. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that 'science' as we know it is utterly corrupted by the megabucks earned through it. Dig beneath the surface of science, and you see honest scientists having their funding withdrawn for telling the truth, and a corporate mafia dictating to governments and academia. The statistics you are looking at are not necessarily reflecting the truth, and that snake oil might actually do better by our dogs than vaccines, even if the snake oil IS water. (This is not to say that I'm defending snake oil; snake oil is obviously a euphemism for something that isn't very good.)"

"The following are extracts from a related paper appearing in Biologicals in 2010. http://www.sepeap.org/secciones/documentos/pdf/retrovirus_endogeno.pdf

RD-114 was first isolated from a human tumor cell line (RD cells) derived from a human rhabdomyosarcoma after passage through fetal cats, and is thought to be xenotropic. Translation: they found this cat retrovirus in a highly malignant human tumour. Xenotropic means that it will be harmless in the original host species, but will cause problems (like tumors) in a different species.

The paper continues: RD-114 virus grows efficiently in feline and non-feline cell lines except murine [rat and mice] cells. RD-114 virus can contaminate viral vaccines for cats and dogs when RD-114 virus-producing cells are used for vaccine manufacturing. Indeed, seed stocks of some vaccines are currently prepared by using feline cells that may produce RD-114 virus. Translation: the feline retrovirus can infect any species except rats and mice, and RD-114 contaminated cells are used for vaccine manufacturing and then injected into dogs, cats and other species.

The paper concludes: As long as feline cells are used to produce vaccines, there is a risk that infectious RD-114 virus contaminates live attenuated vaccines. Because RD-114 virus productively infects cells from cats and dogs, the virus can infect these animals in vivo [meaning infect their actual bodies as opposed to theoretically in a test tube] . Since certain ERVs [endogenous retroviruses] infect new host species and induce diseases, the potential risks of infection by ERVs in humans and animals should be reconsidered.

A scientist I cannot name, for his safety, wrote to me privately: If the ERV induces diseases in vaccinated animals and humans, it will take more than five years (in animals) to ten years (in humans) (or more) when the first patient appears. But it will take additional time to relate some diseases with specific vaccines because expected diseases are very common (such as cancers, lymphoma and autoimmune diseases). If so, when we are aware of the real risk of ERVs, it is too late because millions are infected with the viruses by the contaminated vaccines."

"Bet Hargreaves is a long-time Cavalier King Charles Spaniel breeder who had noted a correlation between vaccination and the onset of heart disease in her breed. She wrote to Dr Larry Glickman who, with his colleagues, conducted the Purdue study. In his reply he stated:

Our ongoing studies of dogs shows that following routine vaccination, there is a significant rise in the level of antibodies dogs produce against their own tissues. Some of these antibodies have been shown to target the thyroid gland, connective tissue such as that found in the valves of the heart, red blood cells, DNA, etc. I do believe that the heart conditions in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels could be the end result of repeated immunisations by vaccines containing tissue culture contaminants that cause a progressive immune response directed at connective tissue in the heart valves. The clinical manifestations would be more pronounced in dogs that have a genetic predisposition [although] the findings should be generally applicable to all dogs regardless of their breed."

"... you asked for evidence that both vaccinated and non-vaccinated dogs succumb to viral disease when there are outbreaks. May I suggest you contact the British Veterinary Medicines Directorate? Earlier this year, there was a parvovirus outbreak in the UK and vaccinated dogs were getting it. I emailed the VMD asking them what was happening, and they replied that they were investigating. They didn't get back to me, but it would be interesting to know what they found. Since the VMD is a wing of the veterinary pharmaceutical industry, I would expect them to cover any vaccine failures up if possible, but you could nevertheless ask. I can let you have an email contact if you'd like to follow this through."

".....answering your question about non-vaccinated animals being more susceptible to viral disease, I would agree with you IF the animals are also stressed and malnourished. The answer isn't straightforward, there are lots of ifs and buts, but generally speaking, I would not advocate that people just stop vaccinating and leave their pets unprotected. There has to be some sort of protection. This is why I emphasise natural feeding. Vitamins A, C and D are anti-infective. They are unlikelyl to be found in processed pet food. They are easily destroyed by cooking, freezing, sunlight, exposure to oxygen, and by extrusion (where liquids are sucked out of dry food). Similarly, if an animal is stressed (as they are bound to be in the kennel/rescue situation), the immune system is severely compromised. A science called psychoneuroimmunology measures the way in which the immune system and the emotions mirror one-another. There is also, incidentally, research to show that stressed individuals do not acquire immunity when vaccinated. I personally believe that outbreaks occur in rescues either because of vaccines, or despite them, for these reasons (stress and malnutrition). Thing is, vaccines don't guarantee protection. The REAL issue is the health of the immune system. Vaccine product datasheets for dogs invariably caution that 'immunocompetence can be compromised by a variety of factors, including genetics, diet, stress...'. What they are saying is that their vaccines may not work in particular circumstances. "

And this article by Prof R Schultz, who advises the WSAVA VGG:

Schultz: Dog vaccines may not be necessary (March 14, 2003)


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Ok.



> For example, a research paper came out in 2010 showing that there is a feline retrovirus (RD-114) contaminating several brands of distemper vaccines in the UK and Japan (which are the only two places the researchers looked). Retroviruses can cause cancer and leukaemia, but these illnesses won't arise immediately. They take about five years to develop. The British Veterinary Medicines Directorate attended a meeting at European level, where it was decided not to address the problem immediately. Although it would be easy to screen the retrovirus out, it would take at lest ten years to license non-contaminated vaccines. *Therefore, anyone vaccinating now risks injecting cancer and/or leukaemia into their dog*. Unfortunately, this is but one of the risks.


To reach this conclusion from the science available is so misleading as to be verging on the untruthful. 
1. SOME vaccines were contaminalted. Not all.
2. Not all retroviruses cause cancer.
3. Retroviruses are very complex organisms and some may actually be essential in some situaltions for normal heathy cell functions 
Beneficial role of human endogenous retrovir... [Scand J Immunol. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI



> Michael Day, senior lecturer in Veterinary Pathology at the University of Bristol, and a member of the WSAVA Vaccine Guidelines Group, states that: Environmental influences are crucial to the expression of immune mediated disease and the most important of these is likely to be exposure to microbial antigens following natural infection or vaccination." Mr Day divides immune mediated disease into four main groups  hypersensitivity diseases [inflammation], autoimmune diseases, immune system neoplasia [tumour formation] and immunodeficiency diseases.
> 
> *Apart from cuts, limps and bumps, Mr Day is illustrating that practically every illness suffered by dogs can be caused by vaccines.* He stated this in 'In Practice' in 1998, but since then, there has been a tremendous body of continuing research into vaccine adverse effects. Cancer, brain damage, epilepsy, arthritis ... some 80 autoimmune diseases ... almost everything that walks on four legs into a veterinary practice. And the biggest problem is that not all of these show themselves immediately after the shot. Vaccine reactions happen days, months and even years later.


I'm sorry, I don't get the point you are trying to make. He is clearly NOT saying that. He is asserting that in _immune mediated diease _(not "practically every illness") exposure to antigens from infections or vaccines is crutial.
Do you have the link to the original piece he wrote? Reading other people's interpretation of someone's work is fraught with dangers.

I don't have time to read the rest of your interesting post yet, SL. I shall when I get back.

Off to walk the dogs!


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## Puppy Love (Jan 10, 2008)

You might find this link useful. I have heard nothing but praise for Mark Pooley and his remedies. Look up Natural Medicine Man on FB.

Holistic Remedies UK


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Ok.
> 
> To reach this conclusion from the science available is so misleading as to be verging on the untruthful.
> 1. SOME vaccines were contaminalted. Not all.
> ...


You need to contact Catherine O'Driscoll, as I said, I'm quoting from what she has posted on another forum. She's not a member on here and I doubt if she has time to join up to post, but if you contact her she is very helpful.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I've had a look at Catherines website. I don't find her at all credible. She cherry picks data to support her own, flawed pseudo scientific ends. She is clearly not independant as she sells multiple items and courses to support her beliefs.

I prefer to read scientific papers first hand and not rely on someone's inerpretation of them PARTICULARLY when that someone has an axe to grind.

Her site merely confirms my view that "alternatve medicine" is a belief system--not one based on science.

It is, surely, about the _weight_ of evidence and that is very very strongly on the side of conventional medicine


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think if my dog died and it was at least *thought* to be linked to vaccination, I'd have an axe to grind. In fact I do have an axe to grind as one of my dogs suddenly grew a papilloma after vaccination, which is why I stopped her annual boosters. And is one reason why I've looked into it further. 

I'm not sure where you're coming from with the sales thing, vaccinations aren't free.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

it had been asserted earlier* that because vets make money by vaccinating dogs, there advice was somehow suspect.


*not by you.


DID i understand you correctly, that you fail to vaccinate your dogs because one of them developed a papilloma after vaccination? Isn't that disproportinate?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> it had been asserted earlier* that because vets make money by vaccinating dogs, there advice was somehow suspect.
> 
> *not by you.
> 
> DID i understand you correctly, that you fail to vaccinate your dogs because one of them developed a papilloma after vaccination? Isn't that disproportinate?


Not really, if your dog suddenly grows a lump after being vaccinated, surely you'd be worried it was possibly caused by the vaccination? I never intended to carry on annual vaccinations in any case because of her age, and so chose to end her vaccination cycle there and then.

I don't *fail* to vaccinate my dogs btw, I choose not to, there is a difference


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

poor choice of words on my part. No offence intended.

It just seemed disproportionate because a papilloma is totally benign and insignificant. 


I think we shall just have to agree to disgree on this one, however, I will be keeping an eye on the evidence in relation to leptospirosis


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I won't be vaccinating Lexi this time, after her reaction in June, have 3 or 4 days of lifelessness, dull eyes, dicky tummy etc. I have spoken to my vet and he agrees its the best thing for her, this dog is allergic to pretty much everything and it would appear something in the vaccine didn't agree with her and i won't put her through that again.
I also don't flea them with chemicals (she had a reaction to that) but I do worm them,
I also raw feed.

And for the record vaccines don't stop you getting the disease, I know, after having my MMR, and my MMR booster I still caught and was very poorly with mumps, apparantly just because you are vaccinated you are neccesarily immune, so why should i risk my dogs life to possible make her immune.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> poor choice of words on my part. No offence intended.
> 
> It just seemed disproportionate because a papilloma is totally benign and insignificant.
> 
> I think we shall just have to agree to disgree on this one, however, I will be keeping an eye on the evidence in relation to leptospirosis


No offence taken 

The point is, although a papiloma is benign, since then, she has gone on to develop another lump, which turned out to be cancerous, fortunately I had it removed quite quickly, and currently has a skin tag which I'm looking at having removed, although I do not like putting her through GA as she doesn't recover well. She also had a melignant melanoma which was removed at the same time as the other lump, thankfully again, taken with a clean portion of cells surrounding the cancerous ones.

Maybe she's more prone to lumps and bumps, her half sister definitely isn't, but until I am happy that I'm doing the right thing for my dogs, I won't blithely let a vet vaccinate them without questioning it. I know that's not what you do, but that is what the vast majority of people do who vaccinate their pets.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> I also don't flea them with chemicals


out of interest, what do you use if not chemicals? Fairy dust?



> And for the record vaccines don't stop you getting the disease, I know, after having my MMR, and my MMR booster I still caught and was very poorly with mumps, apparantly just because you are vaccinated you are neccesarily immune, so why should i risk my dogs life to possible make her immune.


This is to completely misunderstand what vaccination and immunity actually _is_


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> out of interest, what do you use if not chemicals? Fairy dust?


For me, garlic and tea tree shampoo if needed. Never had a problem

As a groomer, I see many dogs with suspicious lumps at treatments points and then this directly related to a spot on treatment


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

LexiLou2 said:


> IAnd for the record vaccines don't stop you getting the disease, I know, after having my MMR, and my MMR booster I still caught and was very poorly with mumps, apparantly just because you are vaccinated you are neccesarily immune, so why should i risk my dogs life to possible make her immune.


Not all vaccines offer 100% protection against disease. Also some people and animals are what are called "non responders".

However that does not make vaccines worthless to the majority of people any more than the fact that some people have a fatal peanut allergy make peanuts dangerous per se.

The risks you are discussing are relative not absolute.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No offence taken
> 
> The point is, although a papiloma is benign, since then, she has gone on to develop another lump, which turned out to be cancerous, fortunately I had it removed quite quickly, and currently has a skin tag which I'm looking at having removed, although I do not like putting her through GA as she doesn't recover well. She also had a melignant melanoma which was removed at the same time as the other lump, thankfully again, taken with a clean portion of cells surrounding the cancerous ones.
> 
> Maybe she's more prone to lumps and bumps, her half sister definitely isn't, but until I am happy that I'm doing the right thing for my dogs, I won't blithely let a vet vaccinate them without questioning it. I know that's not what you do, but that is what the vast majority of people do who vaccinate their pets.


Mmm that's interesting.

When I had to change vets just over 3 years ago, my new practice insisted on giving Tremor the full vaccine in spite of my old vet saying she wouldn't need another for two years. Shortly afterwards I noticed a papiloma and a sebaceous cyst and then she developed a skin tag.
I'm convinced they were caused by over-vaccination and said so. It still cost nearly £200 to have the skin tag removed...!!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> garlic and tea tree


These are composed solely of chemicals.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> out of interest, what do you use if not chemicals? Fairy dust?
> 
> This is to completely misunderstand what vaccination and immunity actually _is_





smokeybear said:


> Not all vaccines offer 100% protection against disease. Also some people and animals are what are called "non responders".
> 
> However that does not make vaccines worthless to the majority of people any more than the fact that some people have a fatal peanut allergy make peanuts dangerous per se.
> 
> The risks you are discussing are relative not absolute.





Old Shep said:


> These are composed solely of chemicals.


I use garlic cloves, apple cider vinegar and tumeric within their food.

i also understand their are non responders with vaccinations, I don't for a second assume that they all 'don't work' as I say i quote my doctor "i shouldn't have got mumps but i did".

However for all those that are saying vaccinations are the be all and end all have you ever had a dog react badly?
Lexi had her booster in June, we had a lifeless lethargic quite poorly dog for 3 or 4 days, to the ponit we went back to the vets and he agreed she reacts very very badly to vaccinations.
Bearing in mind this is the dog that when she was spayed had a really bad reaction to the GA and then a huge allergic reaction to her stitches.
I don't make these decisions off my old back, my vet is amazing and very open minded and he agreed the best thing for Lexi is to not vaccinate, so I will titre test her and the other two.
Its the kind of the same way some people are choosing not to vaccinate their children against MMA (i think) due to there been a possible chance of autism, I won't vaccinate my dog and risk her health.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> These are composed solely of chemicals.


Garlic is a species of onion?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> Garlic is a species of onion


at the risk of repeating myself : and composed entierly of chemicals


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> I use garlic cloves, apple cider vinegar and tumeric within their food.
> 
> i also understand their are non responders with vaccinations, I don't for a second assume that they all 'don't work' as I say i quote my doctor "i shouldn't have got mumps but i did".
> 
> ...


I've liked your post, but I don't like it, because I know how poorly Lexi is day to day, and I know how you've tried to ease her allergies by making her life as natural as possible.

Hugs hen, you can only do your best with the evidence in front of you.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm absolutely astounded at the rudeness of people who are pro vaccination. Yes, garlic, turmeric, apple cider vinegar are chemicals when it boils down to it. But they are naturally occuring chemicals that have centuries proven experience when it comes to how they help us, and our dogs remain healthy.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> Its the kind of the same way some people are choosing not to vaccinate their children against MMA (i think) due to there been a possible chance of autism,


It's that kind of irresposible, ignorant, ill informed comment that has been responsible for the needless deaths of babies and children!

*CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU MAKE STUPID STATEMENTS LIKE THIS!*


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> It's that kind of irresposible, ignorant, ill informed comment that has been responsible for the needless deaths of babies and children!
> 
> *CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU MAKE STUPID STATEMENTS LIKE THIS!*


Delightful informed post, wow, someone makes a mistake with a consonant and you really jump the gun.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I am NOT commenting on the mis-typing, but on the actual comment. Do you know the background to the MMR myth? If you understood it and appreciated how many children and babies actually DIED of measles foloowing this, you would be as insensed as I am.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> It's that kind of irresposible, ignorant, ill informed comment that has been responsible for the needless deaths of babies and children!
> 
> *CHECK YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU MAKE STUPID STATEMENTS LIKE THIS!*


Well aren't you pleasant.

I obviously meant MMR and I apologise for the typo, sat with a staffie and a lab on your lab typing is not the easiest, however I have shifted them now to give your post my full attention.

However I do not have children but from what I do understand it is a well known arguement amoung some that some believe there is a link between MMR and autism.....not once did I say that was my belief, infact I have even written in this same thread I have had my MMR and the booster.

However someone said earlier on you would not choose not to vaccinate your children and the point I was trying to make was yes (rightly or wrongly) some people are starting to choose to not vaccinate their children.

So where is my post ignorant or ill informed?? I have not stated categorically that MMR causes issues, I haven't even said I believe it I just said it is a well known arguement that is rumbling along.

So would you like to climb down of your high horse please.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I am NOT commenting on the mis-typing, but on the actual comment. Do you know the background to the MMR myth? If you understood it and appreciated how many children and babies actually DIED of measles foloowing this, you would be as insensed as I am.


Coming from someone who has lost a child, I can categorically state yes, I am incensed by how ignorant your post is Yes, I have suffered measles, if you take the time to read the thread as well. I won't ever know why I lost my child but posts like yours are really such a highlight, not!!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

In what way is my post ignorant SL?



> it is a well known arguement that is rumbling along.


Oh yes?

Andrew Wakefield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok so he was struck off in May 2010 so why are artcles like this been published in August 2012 if the arguement is still continuing?

'MMR vaccine causes autism' claim banned - Telegraph

ETA the article is obviously about getting the claim removed which i do understand, however if the arguement no longer existed the article would never have been published.

I will reiterate i don't believe this or really have a formed opinion, i used it as an example in my post to show not all parents are now vaccinating their kids and got jumped on for it


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> In what way is my post ignorant SL?
> 
> Oh yes?
> 
> Andrew Wakefield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Well your link is, not one I would have chosen tbh. I mean, wikipediea? Where are you gleaning you *facts* from?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 1957) is a British former surgeon and medical researcher, known for his fraudulent 1998 research paper in support of the now-discredited claim that there is a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine and the appearance of autism and bowel disease.[1][2][3]





> Wakefield had planned to launch a venture on the back of an MMR vaccination scare that would profit from new medical tests and "litigation driven testing".[





> the GMC ruled against Wakefield on all issues, stating that he had "failed in his duties as a responsible consultant",[10] acted against the interests of his patients,[10] and "dishonestly and irresponsibly" in his controversial research





> the GMC said that Wakefield had "brought the medical profession into disrepute," and no sanction short of erasing his name from the register was appropriate for the "serious and wide-ranging findings" of misconduct.[15


Thats from the willi link I posted. The edited highlights. As you can see, I am not ignorant of the facts in the case.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Good old wikipedia!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

that comment is a bit desparate, SL. I quoted from wikki as it is accessable top people with no specialised knowledge on the subject. I can provide many. many other sources. Do you want me to, because it's not difficult. The case is probably the most notorious case of medical research fraud there is!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Thats from the willi link I posted. The edited highlights. As you can see, I am not ignorant of the facts in the case.


Which is all well and good but there is still an arguement going on. He may have been struck of and discredited but there is still an arguement, there is still uncertainty and there are still parents (rightly or wrongly) choosing not to vaccinate their children.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> that comment is a bit desparate, SL. I quoted from wikki as it is accessable top people with no specialised knowledge on the subject. I can provide many. many other sources. Do you want me to, because it's not difficult. The case is probably the most notorious case of medical research fraud there is!


You can post what you like, go for it, unfortunately, I know the truth about what you're posting, and will share what I know


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

> Which is all well and good but there is still an arguement going on. He may have been struck of and discredited but there is still an arguement, there is still uncertainty and there are still parents (rightly or wrongly) choosing not to vaccinate their children


Can't you read? Are you being intentionally obtuse?

The only argument and uncertainty is in your head.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You can post what you like, go for it, unfortunately, I know *the truth about what you're posting, *and will share what I know


sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory to me.

You dfisappoint me, SL. I thought you looked rationally at evidence presented to you. I never took you for being closed minded.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Can't you read? Are you being intentionally obtuse?
> 
> The only argument and uncertainty is in your head.


What a lovely well thought out argument, I'm surprised there aren't people flocking to your cause, really I am!!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Please observe the message in the attached.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Can't you read? Are you being intentionally obtuse?
> 
> The only argument and uncertainty is in your head.


Ok so what about the link i posted earlier from August 2012 where a website had stated there was a 10% more chance that kids would get autism if they had their MMR? I think that was the statistic anyway read the link it tells you.

The point of the article is to say they were told to remove this information, however my point is for them to have put the information up in the first place there must still be people out there that believe there is a link and therefore there must still be an arguement going on, albeit not as public as it was in the late 2000's.
However as I have stated before not having children I really don't know enough about this to have an in depth arguement. I used it as an example as a quick search on google brought up enoguh recent information for me to think there is still an arguement surrounding the MMR vaccination but as already stated not as public as it was a number of years ago.

Now I have explained myself fully, can we get this back on topic which was about vaccinating your dog.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Please observe the message in the attached.


Please observe my two fingers as I politely reciprocate your obviously ill intentioned gensture, twonk.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> Can't you read? Are you being intentionally obtuse?
> 
> The only argument and uncertainty is in your head.


And is there really any need to be so rude? Seriously?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LexiLou2 said:


> Ok so what about the link i posted earlier from August 2012 where a website had stated there was a 10% more chance that kids would get autism if they had their MMR? I think that was the statistic anyway read the link it tells you.
> 
> The point of the article is to say they were told to remove this information, however my point is for them to have put the information up in the first place there must still be people out there that believe there is a link and therefore there must still be an arguement going on, albeit not as public as it was in the late 2000's.
> However as I have stated before not having children I really don't know enough about this to have an in depth arguement. I used it as an example as a quick search on google brought up enoguh recent information for me to think there is still an arguement surrounding the MMR vaccination but as already stated not as public as it was a number of years ago.
> ...


Hen, sometimes there is not point arguing, some people will never want to see all sides of the argument, just hte one they know. Don't waste your breath.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Ok so what about the link i posted earlier from August 2012 where a website had stated there was a 10% more chance that kids would get autism if they had their MMR? I think that was the statistic anyway read the link it tells you.
> 
> The point of the article is to say they were told to remove this information, however my point is for them to have put the information up in the first place there must still be people out there that believe there is a link and therefore there must still be an arguement going on, albeit not as public as it was in the late 2000's.


The supposed link between the MMR vaccine and autism (which many studies have now completely discredited) was put forward by a single paper by Andrew Wakefield which was published in the Lancet and highly publicised by the mainstream media.

Investigations later found that he had manipulated evidence and did not meet appropriate ethical criteria. As a result Andrew Wakefield was struck off and the Lancet retracted the paper.

His paper triggered a range of other studies and meta studies, none of which found any link whatsoever between the MMR vaccine and autism.

Unfortunately the retraction and studies finding no link have not been given the same level of press coverage as the original paper and so there are people who still believe there is a link and more who choose to believe there is a link even in the face of all evidence to the contrary.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2012)

Maybe I'm totally gullible, but I find both arguments for and against vaccination compelling. I suppose too, a lot has to do with what you're vaccinating. As someone who grew up watching moms run over to someone's house who had measles to make sure their kids got it as kids, I personally think MMR is a bit overkill in a healthy child. 
I grew up in 3rd world countries, had rubella as a child, was exposed to measles & mumps but never developed either disease. But I test positive for antibodies to measles. 

Smallpox though? I'm one of the few of my generation who bears that vaccine scar, and I wear it proudly. One of the major triumphs of modern medicine to eradicate that disease.

I was also exposed to hepatitis (A I think?), never got it, and who knows what else I was exposed to. Last I checked, I'm no worse for the wear, maybe a bit better off for having been exposed?

I tend to think that immune systems, much like working line GSDs, are meant to work, and if you don't give them something to do, they will find something to do, and that's when you end up with all sorts of weird autoimmune diseases, juvenile arthritis, and lupus, and asthmas, and allergies. Obviously it's more complex that just letting the immune system fight off a good bug now and then, but I do think we will eventually find some link there.

Hey, speaking of smallpox, has anyone read "Saving the World" by Isabel Allende? Really cool historical fiction about how the Spanish brought the small pox vaccine to the new world by sequentially infecting a ship full of orphaned boys with cowpox, harvesting the blisters, and repeating in the next two boys. Brings up a whole slew of thought points about vaccinations, disease, our responsibility to our fellow man, etc.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> The supposed link between the MMR vaccine and autism (which many studies have now completely discredited) was put forward by a single paper by Andrew Wakefield which was published in the Lancet and highly publicised by the mainstream media.
> 
> Investigations later found that he had manipulated evidence and did not meet appropriate ethical criteria. As a result Andrew Wakefield was struck off and the Lancet retracted the paper.
> 
> ...


And this was my point, even though the theory has been dis-proven and Andrew Wakefield discredited and struck off, there are still some people out there that feel there is some doubt and are choosing against vaccination.
I personally don't believe there is or ever has been a risk, and having had mumps myself even with having the vaccine it not something I would wish on anyone.
I was using it as possibly a crude example some parents are choosing to not vacciante their chidle due to a risk that doesn't really exist but worries them all the same, I'm choosing not to vaccinate my dog as well i genuinely feel it will so some serious damge, or possible kill her.


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## teoroy (Dec 4, 2012)

LexiLou2 said:


> Which is all well and good but there is still an arguement going on. He may have been struck of and discredited but there is still an arguement, there is still uncertainty and there are still parents (rightly or wrongly) choosing not to vaccinate their children.


One just needs to watch some of the many youtubes videos with testimonies of parents of vaccine dammaged children to start thinking that maybe not everything is as safe is it has been claimed.

I don't think anybody disputed the fact in the Lancet report that in the bowels of autistic children the measles virus was found.

As far as remember Wakefield was struck off mainly because of the unethical way of obtaining samples (at a chilldrens party) but I haven't researched the topic in huge details.

A mum with an autistic child has dugged deeper:

http://www.regardingcaroline.com/pubmed.html


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