# Defending your home?



## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

It's been all over the news, the past few days, about a burglar dying after breaking into a pensioners home, armed with a screwdriver. The pensioner defended himself and stabbed the guy. He's since been released by the police, who don't intend to take it any further.

I'm just interested to know what you would do in similar circumstances. Or what your views are. Did the pensioner have the right to protect himself in such a way?

It would be quite a scary thing to happen, having someone break in and not knowing what they are capable of


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I have no idea, normally when I'm frightened I'll do one of two things, either I'll freeze, or I'll fight. 

It is scary though that it seems you are not allowed to defend your own property.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2018)

HarlequinCat said:


> Did the pensioner have the right to protect himself in such a way?


I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't have the right to protect themselves from harm. Are we talking legally, morally, court of public opinion?

BTW do you have a link? I'm not in the UK so not seen this story


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## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

Police detective friend recommends a long torch. She has one besides her bed, if you go investigating it's completely natural to carry a torch to look around and if you happen to use that torch as a weapon to defend yourself then you're within your rights to do so. If you carry a bat or a knife then you're going into the situation expecting to use the weapon and that's where there can be issues. 

I think the pensioner had a right to protect himself but the police also did right by taking him in for questioning, otherwise anyone could say they're protecting their home and invite someone round to hurt, I also remember a case a few years back where a man shot a burglar in the back and was jailed which I agree with as the burglar wasn't attacking him when he got shot.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...iled-over-fatal-stabbing-of-suspected-burglar

@ouesi: Here's one; there are many more too!!


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Until it happens (god forbid) no-one knows how they will react, it's a heat of the moment thing....

I'd like to think I'd tackle the intruder but It's possible I might hide under my duvet  I've never been in that situation so I can't say.

Legally, the Government website says this...


> You can use reasonable force to protect yourself or others if a crime is taking place inside your home.
> 
> This means you can:
> 
> ...


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Calvine said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...iled-over-fatal-stabbing-of-suspected-burglar
> 
> @ouesi: Here's one; there are many more too!!


Thanks for the link. The original post led me to believe it was the intruder who was released by the police. I see by the story the intruder (with a previous alleged burglary) was actually killed and it was the home owner who was arrested then released on bail.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

It's reminiscent of (the farmer) Tony Martin's case; he shot and killed an intruder at his remote farm in the middle of nowhere and was jailed. There was a massive public outcry and he was then (I think) charged with manslaughter instead but was still banged up for three years. Sorry, doing this from memory, but think it's about right. And in this recent case there were two 'perps' . . . one still at large, but doubt he'll be on the 'active' register after what happened to his mate. I believe in the Tony Martin case there were two as well. And in both cases the victims were elderly men. This guy is 78.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

If you can believe what you read, the guy was a career criminal.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

BlackadderUK said:


> Until it happens (god forbid) no-one knows how they will react, it's a heat of the moment thing....
> 
> I'd like to think I'd tackle the intruder but It's possible I might hide under my duvet  I've never been in that situation so I can't say.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2018)

"possibly a white van" 
Why is it always a white van? Seriously why do they even make white vans anymore, clearly it's only the criminal element who use white vans! 
(Sorry, just had to get that out of my system.)

Back to serious mode:
Thanks for the link @Calvine  
So it seems the law does allow for defending yourself if you feel you are being attacked.

That said, I totally agree with @BlackadderUK until you are in that situation (and I hope no one is) you don't know how you will react. A lot of people freeze in fright, or lash out completely ineffectively. It's actually the rare person who without training will be able to keep their wits about them and effectively defend themselves.

Kudos to the pensioner IMO. Way to show the world that older folks aren't feeble, vulnerable sitting ducks and may have more experience than you bargained for.

Though I also feel the need to say that killing someone for breaking in to your home is a bit OTT, but it doesn't seem like that was his intent, just to defend himself. Unluckily for the dead man, he got stabbed fatally. Seems like his choices kind of led in that direction though. I feel badly for his family  And for the pensioner who I'm sure feels terrible that his actions might have caused the death of someone, you'd have to be less than human to not be bothered by that....


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

I believe the Tony Martin case was different because the guys were actually running away & he shot one in the back... he was no longer in danger or defending his home!

Had he woken & shot him in the house is another scenario.....


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I understood the poor man was in bed next to his elderly wife who suffers from dementia and woke to find two men in his house - one at least armed with a screwdriver. I was watching a discussion about it on one of the morning TV shows and someone made a good point about how the police/law expect you to behave in a rational way and therefore make rational decisions as you would when not feeling under threat with adrenaline coursing through you. I don't think anyone really knows how they will react under those circumstances until it happens. When I thought I heard someone walk down my side path and I had the back door open as it was summer and my OH was at work I immediately grabbed a bit knife before going to investigate, I have no idea whether I would have used it or not and hope I never have to find out but I do know when stressed or threatened I act first and engage brain second. On the other hand I have been known to freeze and go rigid when scared which has happened to me twice, once as a teenager when charged at by a herd of horses and once as an adult when on safari and going for a pee in some bushes, everyone else ran when they heard a lioness roaring at us and coming down from some rocks and I just stood there unable to move.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

I think if you are stupid enough to break into someones home (or anywhere really) you will potentially suffer the consequences of whatever is on the other side.....

Like most things I think you have idea how you'd react in that situation, very much flight or fight I think, something you can't rationalise unless it happens.

It's not something I give a second thought to TBH, one advantage of having a big territorial GSD with a hell of a gob on it


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

It's an awful thing to have happened & I can't imagine how scared the couple must have been. No one knows how they will react until the time I suppose. Not quite the same but a few years ago I spotted a couple of men trying to get in to my garden (my BF of the time was driving us back from shopping) & I literally jumped from the car & stood in the way of their van (black van this time!) screaming at them. I was lucky they didn't run me over but I think they were too shocked at my language. I was just worried they would have hurt the dogs so didn't think of what I was doing.
In this case though I don't like the way the media has reported it, the man who was killed sounded like scum tbh but he still has a family & to almost glorify his death (in some ways it seems like that) just just sit right with me. I also think that the poor man who was the homeowner will now have to live with this for the rest of his life, regardless of the circumstances it must be a terrible thing to have to live with knowing you killed someone despite it being in self defence. Just a really awful thing to have happened & I really hope the couple involved are not targetted by the victm's family.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

An Englishman's home is his castle.

Or so they say.

If someone ever broke into our house and I didn't get to them first, I guarantee you the dogs would. It's a poor turn of justice if you're not allowed to defend yourself on your own property.


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

Oh, I think 100% he was right to defend himself, it's just such a hard thing to judge what is classed as reasonable force. As many of you say, when you are scared and have adrenaline running through you, you would just pick up the first thing that would come to hand! You wouldn't stop and think whether what you are doing is reasonable.

Oddly (and I don't know if it was put there just to get a reaction from people), someone left a card and flowers for the guy who broke in, saying he had a "heart of gold" :Bored. Im sure thats not the case when he went around stealing from vulnerable people 



ouesi said:


> I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't have the right to protect themselves from harm. Are we talking legally, morally, court of public opinion?
> 
> BTW do you have a link? I'm not in the UK so not seen this story


Sorry for not posting link, I kind of assumed people saw in the news . I was talking legally .



lorilu said:


> Thanks for the link. The original post led me to believe it was the intruder who was released by the police. I see by the story the intruder (with a previous alleged burglary) was actually killed and it was the home owner who was arrested then released on bail.


Sorry for the confusion! Edited first post now


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

He was arrested because that is the procedure. Arrest/question/release. However, I suspect this is not the last we have heard of this case.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

There was a case recently near Heathrow airport where an elderly brother and sister were living in a caravan and shot an intruder who died.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...sted-suspicion-murder-suspected-burglar-shot/

It must have been terrifying for the elderly man . He didn't know what they would do to him , he could have been beaten up or worse.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

There was a guy years ago who waited in his allotment shed to catch thieves stealing garden tools and he shot one with an air rifle ( i think he lost an eye) and the other guy who kept having his wine storage robbed (wine dealer) and he shot a burglar with a shotgun, both weren't charged but the criminals were on TV complaining about how hard done they'd been......Not 100% sure on those facts it has been a while, but i think it depends on your police force, i certainly wouldn't like to test them.

Reminds me of a story about a purse snatcher in the USA (warning this may be urban myth), grabbed it off a woman toy shopping with her two little kids, as he ran out of the shop 3 US Marines stopped him and got the purse, when the police later asked how he ended up with 2 broken arms and a broken leg as well as other injuries the marines said he fell onto the curb 

Or one that is true, a criminal that was being chased for shooting a trooper was cornered and shot back, he was shot 56 times, the sheriff was asked why 56 times, he replied "We only had 56 bullets" then asked why the corner's preliminary report of death was natural causes he replied "You get shot 56 times your naturally gonna die".....That isn't urban myth i read it on the internet


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I have had to do that sadly. Before I got married, I was renting a ground floor flat in a very posh part of Cambridge. I hadn’t long got home and was still in my room dressed and reading when my flat mate starting screaming and there was a man in her bed quite clearly going to rape her. All our doors were locked but he had broken in because they were just 3 pin locks so the police said later. This unspeakably awful human then tried to get into the flat upstairs which was rented by another lady who had come down worried for us but ran out of the front door he had broken in.

I had already been followed home week earlier and had then scary experience of seeing someone in the back garden with his faced against the window so my then boyfriend gave me a baseball bat.

I chased this rapist down the street with the bat but lost him by a cemetery. I would have beaten the life out of him had I caught him and make no apology for it. It was terrifying and screwed up my flat mate for years and her dad who owned the flat and felt responsible for the locks.

I don’t much talk about it but I think I’ve been left with a paranoia of locking doors ever since. I hated being alone before Molly. One of the most distressing things was that we had the ambulance and police out, we all went to hospital and not one person checked we were okay in our street. Nobody. A few days after me and my husband moved to our current home in the same city, I caught my hand in a clothes horse, drier thing and did a girly scream and two of my new neighbours rushed to see if I was okay. The old flat sold for over a million quid and my house is about three quarter or half that but the area wasn’t kind, you can’t buy a good community.

All that said, my slightly strange neighbour leaves his bike unlocked and his back door because he said Molly keeps burglars away. He can fight his own crims if he leaves his door open, my dog is the last thing I’d send out.


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> I don't much talk about it but I think I've been lef


 you will, its not something that is easily forgotten, it is PTSD


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

steveshanks said:


> you will, its not something that is easily forgotten, it is PTSD


I'm already familiar with PTSD from failed IVF and my ex sadly, it was far far worse for my flat mate, it really was.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Zaros said:


> An Englishman's home is his castle.
> 
> Or so they say.
> 
> If someone ever broke into our house and I didn't get to them first, I guarantee you the dogs would. It's a poor turn of justice if you're not allowed to defend yourself on your own property.


problem is whilst you might get away with it as using reasonable force
the dogs would be pts as dangerous dogs


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think he did, yes. 

He was an elderly man with his ill wife in bed next to him, I'm sure he felt incredibly fearful about what harm may come to his wife if the intruder entered their bedroom and was violent. He acted on instinct and I'm sure had no intentions to actually kill the intruder.

If you're the lowest of the low and looking to burgle a property then tough luck if you meet your match inside! I'm sure the dead guy didn't give a toss how his actions would affect the occupants he was about to rob blind....No sympathy from me. 

As to how you would react in a similar situation, I think it's much like anything really, adrenaline & instinct kicks in and you react without really thinking about your actions. We only have to read how people down in the dog forums for example react to a serious dog attack - some freeze & panic, some get violent towards the attacking dog, some are able to keep their cool and act accordingly. You just don't know, until god forbid, it ever happens.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> my slightly strange neighbour leaves his bike unlocked and his back door because he said Molly keeps burglars away. He can fight his own crims if he leaves his door open, my dog is the last thing I'd send out.


Am probably wrong but does your neighbour believe Molly would bark to deter a burglar...rather she would give a heads up than you would send Molly out?

A few months ago at about 8am on a Sunday a neighbour was broken into. Next door but one. I had been up all night...which involved me going up and downstairs for medications and trying to settle. So hadn't slept a wink, and neither heard anything...no dog had barked either. As it was the burglars as they thought was more than one got in via the back so I would maybe expect Maisie to bark...but she hadn't. The police came round and I answered the door and it Cleo was barking...I explained I had been up all night, and my husband had already seen the neighbour had he had nipped out to get paracetamol from the 24 hour garage so we were aware. I explained my dog hadn't barked if they had tried the front my and broke in then maybe the other dogs my husband had phoned the police one night due to Stan waking us when a car window got smashed. The CID said to be honest dogs are the best detterent you can get...I know some people wouldn't care if they have intent a barking dog would not stop them..some dogs wouldn't bark or even move...but as an owner whose dogs as a rule do not bark in the middle of the night I can see where your neighbour may think that a dog would bark if something untoward was happening.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I watched a TV show in which they said small yappie dogs are more of a deterrent than large dogs for many burglars, because little yappie dogs tend to never shut up and wake people up. Since many burglars are opportunists who want to get in then out again as quickly as possible, little dogs can prevent them from being able to do that.

As for the self defence issue, again listening to a barrister on a news programme, he said if you stab someone who is threatening you at the time that is self-defence. However, if the intruder is walking away, even if it is with your valuables, and you stab or shoot the intruder, that is revenge. Hence, why Tony Martin was convicted. 

Until, we know the exact circumstances about this current case, we cannot know for certain if he stabbed the intruder because he was in fear of his or his wife’s life or if he sought revenge. I suppose it depends where he was stabbed. If it was in the back, then it’s more likely to be revenge. In the front and it’s more likely to be self-defence.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sacremist said:


> I watched a TV show in which they said small yappie dogs are more of a deterrent than large dogs for many burglars, because little yappie dogs tend to never shut up and wake people up


I watched a programme once where they interviewed twenty reformed burglars.

All of them said they were far more wary of small dogs in the house than big ones, as you say, because of the barking which alerts home owners. A particular dislike amongst them was Jack Russell Terriers.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

I hope the elderly man can get over this. I think , naturally for most of us it would be quite difficult to knowingly mean to take another person's life. I think we'd all enter survival mode (or flight) , but if in survival then what happens is surely a haze.

Just a shame to think in your twilight years having so much visited upon you. I hope he has an amazing support system.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Julesky said:


> I hope the elderly man can get over this. I think , naturally for most of us it would be quite difficult to knowingly mean to take another person's life. I think we'd all enter survival mode (or flight) , but if in survival then what happens is surely a haze.
> 
> Just a shame to think in your twilight years having so much visited upon you. I hope he has an amazing support system.


 That's a good point. Poor man . It must be playing in his head over and over again and wondering if he could have avoided it .


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Rafa said:


> I watched a programme once where they interviewed twenty reformed burglars.
> 
> All of them said they were far more wary of small dogs in the house than big ones, as you say, because of the barking which alerts home owners. A particular dislike amongst them was Jack Russell Terriers.


My friend's adopted Gran once had a salesman knock on the door selling house burglar alarms many moons ago...Her response was 'No we don't need one of those we have got one, can't you hear him' as her JRT was barking his little head off!


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## steveshanks (Feb 19, 2015)

kimthecat said:


> That's a good point. Poor man . It must be playing in his head over and over again and wondering if he could have avoided it .


 Very true, it'll play on him for life i would imagine, poor man.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> Am probably wrong but does your neighbour believe Molly would bark to deter a burglar...rather she would give a heads up than you would send Molly out?
> 
> A few months ago at about 8am on a Sunday a neighbour was broken into. Next door but one. I had been up all night...which involved me going up and downstairs for medications and trying to settle. So hadn't slept a wink, and neither heard anything...no dog had barked either. As it was the burglars as they thought was more than one got in via the back so I would maybe expect Maisie to bark...but she hadn't. The police came round and I answered the door and it Cleo was barking...I explained I had been up all night, and my husband had already seen the neighbour had he had nipped out to get paracetamol from the 24 hour garage so we were aware. I explained my dog hadn't barked if they had tried the front my and broke in then maybe the other dogs my husband had phoned the police one night due to Stan waking us when a car window got smashed. The CID said to be honest dogs are the best detterent you can get...I know some people wouldn't care if they have intent a barking dog would not stop them..some dogs wouldn't bark or even move...but as an owner whose dogs as a rule do not bark in the middle of the night I can see where your neighbour may think that a dog would bark if something untoward was happening.


He thought both. But Molly rarely barks unless she is able to see rather than hear and snores through thunder storms.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

steveshanks said:


> Very true, it'll play on him for life i would imagine, poor man.


Oh goodness yes and it occurs to me that had I been able to find the bloke I mentioned what might have been -either way because anger isn't everything. He certainly would've been stronger.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> problem is whilst you might get away with it as using reasonable force
> the dogs would be pts as dangerous dogs


I can recount an experience dating back to the early 90's (UK) when the rather large Baskerville hound type dog I had rescued from the RSPCA caught an intruder in my house. At the time of the break in I was on my way home from work.
The man confessed to being pinned against the wall whilst the dog stood over him for approximately half an hour.
The police arrived about 15 minutes later and despite him receiving wounds to his hands and a torn ear, no charges were ever brought against me or the dog.
According to my legal advisor, if you're not in your home at the time the hapless burglar breaks into your property and comes face to face with your dog instinctively protecting its territory, you are not liable to prosecution.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2018)

Sorry but nothing I own is worth my dogs getting a bite history or worse possibly injured or killed. Besides, most dogs are more protective of themselves than anything else. 
I would want my dogs to alert and deter through alerting, but they have zero training in engaging with an attacking human, and they’re no match for a knife or gun wielding attacker.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Sorry but nothing I own is worth my dogs getting a bite history or worse possibly injured or killed. Besides, most dogs are more protective of themselves than anything else.
> I would want my dogs to alert and deter through alerting, but they have zero training in engaging with an attacking human, and they're no match for a knife or gun wielding attacker.


That's something I often think about.

If I were to have an intruder here, I would never want one of the dogs to try and tackle him. Too easy to stick a knife into a dog.

I wouldn't forgive myself.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

That’s my fear too. They can take any of my material possessions they like; just leave my pets alone.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Rafa said:


> That's something I often think about.
> 
> If I were to have an intruder here, I would never want one of the dogs to try and tackle him. Too easy to stick a knife into a dog.
> 
> I wouldn't forgive myself.


This is why I am grateful that Stan is an alert Barker....

When out and about with the dogs...long story short but we had a few attacks on females in our area, and I wasn't worried until my co worker being a man planted the seed in my head...so whilst walking the dogs I never once wanted or saw them as protection... this was pre having the toy breeds but I did think to myself as I walked the dogs out in the open.  If someone was lurking with the dogs off lead...if I had the ability when push came to shove...Dog leads would come sharp! I really wouldn't consider using my dogs as protection even if trained.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> This is why I am grateful that Stan is an alert Barker....
> 
> When out and about with the dogs...long story short but we had a few attacks on females in our area, and I wasn't worried until my co worker being a man planted the seed in my head...so whilst walking the dogs I never once wanted or saw them as protection... this was pre having the toy breeds but I did think to myself as I walked the dogs out in the open. If someone was lurking with the dogs off lead...if I had the ability when push came to shove...Dog leads would come sharp! I really wouldn't consider using my dogs as protection even if trained.


Yes.

I protect my dogs, not them me.

How could you put that responsibility and risk on a dog?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

We have yappy dogs in our street , one dogs starts and then the next . Its like the twilight barking .


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Rafa said:


> Yes.
> 
> I protect my dogs, not them me.
> 
> How could you put that responsibility and risk on a dog?


I certainly couldn't

I also don't know how I would feel if someone broke in my house and a dog attacked...simply because surely in the dogs eyes it's just another person coming in your home. They don't know the difference...

Regardless if said person has broken in..

People due to losing keys do have to break in to their homes all the time...fair enough scent should be enough to say hey you are home...


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> We have yappy dogs in our street , one dogs starts and then the next . Its like the twilight barking .


Maisie keeps trying to join in with the night time barking with the 'big dogs' she's mortified I don't let her!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Exactly. Say you had collapsed and summoned Paramedics, you would certainly hope your dogs didn't devour them before they got to you with the defibrillator.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Rafa said:


> Exactly. Say you had collapsed and summoned Paramedics, you would certainly hope your dogs didn't devour them before they got to you with the defibrillator.


I have various paramedics come out in the past year to me....you have to put the dogs away but I love the ones that ask to have a sneak peak at our dogs! As we have a frosted glass door that you can just about see them! So they are always intrigued by them!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Indie would be a wonderful deterrent, she would sit on their feet which would likely unbalance them so then she would sit on them and give their face and ears a good wash while I called the police. No one escapes an Indie snog when she sets her mind to it


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Indie would be a wonderful deterrent, she would sit on their feet which would likely unbalance them so then she would sit on them and give their face and ears a good wash while I called the police. No one escapes an Indie snog when she sets her mind to it


Cleo would be similar as she's come such a long way she would come downstairs barking then expect said burglar to sit down by staring at them so she can jump on their knee....

When I first got her she would bark bark and bark nearly all day at anything..and if a visitor, dog or anyone wanted to share the sofa then the air snapping would start...

I said come downstairs as I guessing the 'breaking in' would be the equivalent to someone knocking at the door to her!


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Our late cat, Shadow, would have caused more damage to any intruder than Molly (as my house could testify if walls could talk)

But I’d never let anyone hurt Molly. They would have to hurt me first. That’s why my strange neighbour got short shrift. No possession of mine is worth it, never mind his!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I’d hope I would be able to defend against a burglar and I have a few household objects easy to hand that would be capable of knocking someone senseless long enough.

If they died from their injuries I would say they were to blame.

After all, as soon as an intruder breaks into someone’s home with ill intent they rescind protection under the law imo 

Even injured whilst fleeing is complicated because there is no guarantee the intruder won’t stop running and attack again plus the homeowner is now in a state, and pumping adrenaline, understandably.

Obviously if someone dies the Police need to ascertain if they were an intruder. If they were, the homeowner is innocent of any crime and the intruder got what they deserved. Tough.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2018)

Rafa said:


> Exactly. Say you had collapsed and summoned Paramedics, you would certainly hope your dogs didn't devour them before they got to you with the defibrillator.


This is a very real concern actually. I don't know the statistics, but I would think it's more likely that you'll have emergency personnel coming in to your home than intruders with ill intent. 
Having just been painfully reminded through a friend's experience that it might very well be firefighters coming in to your home to save your dogs while you're not home, I certainly would hope my dogs know to trust a human trying to help them than default to attacking someone just because I did not give them express permission to be in the home 

I've said it before, we chose guardian breeds for a reason, but not to protect our material things, but rather because knowing the kids had their dog shadows as they explored the property, and teaching the kids to watch the dogs and defer to them and their instincts has kept them safe and taught them so much about the otherwise invisible world we share with the local wildlife.

One of my friends used to say that Breez would protect the kids but not me, it was kind of a joke between us, because Bates is a mama's boy and would pretty much do anything for me, but Breez was much more discerning LOL. But I do believe Breez would have stepped in if she sensed from one of the kids that they felt vulnerable/afraid. And I have no doubt Lunar would have. But it would take the dog sensing that the child felt afraid, not a default response to someone coming in the house. And I certainly would feel I had failed in my training somehow if any of my dogs defaulted to attacking someone for simply walking in to the house


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

If the man hadn't broken into the pensioners house then he'd still be alive today. If a person gets hurt or dies breaking into someones home then what ever happens to him is his own fault for being there in the first place. A lot of times the laws can be a unfair on the victimes of criminals, but in this case it was right.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> problem is whilst you might get away with it as using reasonable force
> the dogs would be pts as dangerous dogs


Not necessarily. There is a burglar defence built in to the law as long as it happens inside (or partly inside) your home and the 'victim' is or believed to be a trespasser. Your outside space isn't included.

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/228854/8601.pdf
Page 7


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> We have yappy dogs in our street , one dogs starts and then the next . Its like the twilight barking .


This made me chuckle/ took me back to the books


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2018)

havoc said:


> Not necessarily. There is a burglar defence built in to the law as long as it happens inside (or partly inside) your home and the 'victim' is or believed to be a trespasser. Your outside space isn't included.
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g.../uploads/attachment_data/file/228854/8601.pdf
> Page 7


In the US you're protected legally as well, however that doesn't change the fact that I would not want my dog being saddled with a bite history at all. And more importantly, I wouldn't want my dog in that sort of danger. Anyone breaking in to a home is likely to be armed in some way, and the vast majority of dogs, even big guardian breed dogs, are no match at all for a knife, gun, or even blunt object. 
I don't own a single thing that is worth my dog being injured or killed.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I don't own a single thing that is worth my dog being injured or killed


Neither do I but I honestly have no idea what my dog might do if someone broke in when I wasn't home. How can I be the one to protect my dog when I'm not here?


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2018)

havoc said:


> Neither do I but I honestly have no idea what my dog might do if someone broke in when I wasn't home. How can I be the one to protect my dog when I'm not here?


Without putting it to the test none of us know really. However, I would consider it a failing on my part if any of my dogs over the years had a default behavior of attacking someone just because they came in to my house uninvited.

I just get nervous with this Disneyfied idea that our dogs will a) defend us, b) actually know how to defend against a human without specifically being trained, and c) magically know the difference between a "bad guy" vs. emergency personnel trying to give you life-saving treatment, or heaven forbid an elderly person with dementia who wandered in to your home by mistake, or a toddler, or all of the other scenarios you can think up where the absolute last thing you would want from your dog is to attack.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

The thing I found most nauseating was hearing a family member of the burglar praising his 'kind nature' and complaining that the pensioner hadn't been charged with murder. While I feel sympathy for the bereaved family (especially the children who have lost their dad) any man who makes a 'living' out of terrorising and stealing from the elderly has no right to be described as 'kind'. I wish he had been arrested and imprisoned and given another chance to turn his life around instead of being killed, but his death is his own fault and no one else's. If he hadn't decided to steal from vulnerable people, he would still be alive.

I've read that they don't think the victims will be able to return to their home due to the risk of revenge attacks - I feel so sorry for them, the husband coming to terms with having taken a life and both of them potentially losing their home.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Without putting it to the test none of us know really. However, I would consider it a failing on my part if any of my dogs over the years had a default behavior of attacking someone just because they came in to my house uninvited.
> 
> I just get nervous with this Disneyfied idea that our dogs will a) defend us, b) actually know how to defend against a human without specifically being trained, and c) magically know the difference between a "bad guy" vs. emergency personnel trying to give you life-saving treatment, or heaven forbid an elderly person with dementia who wandered in to your home by mistake, or a toddler, or all of the other scenarios you can think up where the absolute last thing you would want from your dog is to attack.


This is the problem I have with Roxy in that she will not let anyone in to my house, she has always been like this & although is not something I have ever encouraged I do not know how to resolve it, nor would I ever feel confident that I had to put it to the test. Even with people she knows she will not let them in to the house unless I am there & let them in, she will not attack them but will stand guard at the door, very still & staring at them. When my ex came round once to collect his stuff, she was the same. He did try to talk to her he said that he was concerned that if he did try to get in then she would have bitten but luckily he didn't & just left


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

CuddleMonster said:


> The thing I found most nauseating was hearing a family member of the burglar praising his 'kind nature' and complaining that the pensioner hadn't been charged with murder. While I feel sympathy for the bereaved family (especially the children who have lost their dad) any man who makes a 'living' out of terrorising and stealing from the elderly has no right to be described as 'kind'. I wish he had been arrested and imprisoned and given another chance to turn his life around instead of being killed, but his death is his own fault and no one else's. If he hadn't decided to steal from vulnerable people, he would still be alive.
> 
> I've read that they don't think the victims will be able to return to their home due to the risk of revenge attacks - I feel so sorry for them, the husband coming to terms with having taken a life and both of them potentially losing their home.


I read I don't know if it's true or false....media for you...flowers for the burglar were being laid at the couple's home. If that's true, and not just a media fairy tale...I don't think they would want to go home straight away to see that.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

lullabydream said:


> I read I don't know if it's true or false....media for you...flowers for the burglar were being laid at the couple's home. If that's true, and not just a media fairy tale...I don't think they would want to go home straight away to see that.


I'm guessing the flowers are probably true as I've seen photos of them outside the home. But whether true or not, the uncertainty over their future must be adding to the nightmare for this poor couple.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

When I was in my early 20s my husband and I were living in a caravan that we towed around from job to job plus our young sheltie and border collie. We spent a week in a really really bad part of Glasgow with the caravan parked on a bit of waste ground. My husband had taken the drunken bar man home from the club where he was doing building work and I was on my own with the dogs. During the day we were constantly hassled by kids and I was in the habit of flying out of the caravan yelling my head off with the dogs beside me. So it was about midnight and I heard people moving around so ignoring the time of night I flew out of the caravan yelling at them to clear off with my trusty dogs beside me. A bloke came up and apologised to me and said they were looking for their ball. I had immediately realised how stupid I had been so I smiled at him and hot footed back to the caravan. In the morning a fairly expensive theft was discovered so the police were called and I told them what had happened. The policeman sounded really angry that I had let the dogs out - until he saw the size of them. But it was obvious I could have been in trouble if I had had a large dog that had attacked.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> This is the problem I have with Roxy in that she will not let anyone in to my house, she has always been like this & although is not something I have ever encouraged I do not know how to resolve it, nor would I ever feel confident that I had to put it to the test. Even with people she knows she will not let them in to the house unless I am there & let them in, she will not attack them but will stand guard at the door, very still & staring at them. When my ex came round once to collect his stuff, she was the same. He did try to talk to her he said that he was concerned that if he did try to get in then she would have bitten but luckily he didn't & just left


Don't you find it interesting that your more confident dog (Archer) doesn't have this issue? 
I think that says a lot about who Roxy is feeling protective of you know?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Don't you find it interesting that your more confident dog (Archer) doesn't have this issue?
> I think that says a lot about who Roxy is feeling protective of you know?


Oh definitely, but then I think this is just anther aspect of her managing her environment to a degree such as when she is in her Fun Police mode. It is of course a concern that she is like this as it means if anything did happen to me then no one would be able to get in. Hopefully nothing will but if it does then I will just have to try to drag myself to the door!


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

ouesi said:


> This is a very real concern actually. I don't know the statistics, but I would think it's more likely that you'll have emergency personnel coming in to your home than intruders with ill intent.
> Having just been painfully reminded through a friend's experience that it might very well be firefighters coming in to your home to save your dogs while you're not home, I certainly would hope my dogs know to trust a human trying to help them than default to attacking someone just because I did not give them express permission to be in the home
> 
> I've said it before, we chose guardian breeds for a reason, but not to protect our material things, but rather because knowing the kids had their dog shadows as they explored the property, and teaching the kids to watch the dogs and defer to them and their instincts has kept them safe and taught them so much about the otherwise invisible world we share with the local wildlife.
> ...


What guardian breeds do you keep?


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2018)

FeelTheBern said:


> What guardian breeds do you keep?


None now  unless a muttdog of unknown origin counts.
As the grammar nazi you claim to be, I thought you would have picked up on the use of past tense. Though as you can see I haven't had the heart to remove Breez from my avatar.
Breez was a great dane.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

ouesi said:


> As the grammar nazi you claim to be, I thought you would have picked up on the use of past tense.


I'm sorry for your loss, but there's nothing in your post that indicates you no longer keep guardian breeds.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

I think @ouesi means that all her references to Breez were in the past tense, while her references to Bates were in present tense - if both were still alive, both would have been referred to in present tense.

Breez is beautiful @ouesi - I'm not surprised you don't want to change the photo.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2018)

FeelTheBern said:


> I'm sorry for your loss, but there's nothing in your post that indicates you no longer keep guardian breeds.


Why do you ask anyway?

And thank you @CuddleMonster


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

ouesi said:


> In the US you're protected legally as well, however that doesn't change the fact that I would not want my dog being saddled with a bite history at all.


Here in the UK a dog doesn't have to bite to be deemed dangerously out of control. It's all about whether someone can demonstrate a reasonable fear that the dog 'may' attack them. Anyone acting with ill intent could well say that about any dog in any house they intend to burgle without even gaining entry. If we didn't have that ammendment in the legislation there would be burglers up and down the land crying foul at any dog which so much as barked as they tried to break in.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2018)

havoc said:


> Here in the UK a dog doesn't have to bite to be deemed dangerously out of control. It's all about whether someone can demonstrate a reasonable fear that the dog 'may' attack them. Anyone acting with ill intent could well say that about any dog in any house they intend to burgle without even gaining entry. If we didn't have that ammendment in the legislation there would be burglers up and down the land crying foul at any dog which so much as barked as they tried to break in.


In the US we have rabies. 
Any dog that bites, regardless of why, must be quarantined for 10 days. Most of the time authorities are reasonable and will allow a vaccinated dog who doesn't appear to be a grave danger to remain quarantined in the owner's home. Some vets have quarantine facilities too that are less stressful than the pound. But there is no guarantee, and if my dog bit an intruder, he could be taken from us and put in a concrete kennel for 10 days. 
We also have mandatory reporting. Any bite that results in medical treatment has to be reported. So for the rest of his/her life, the dog who bit is on record as having a bite history. For multiple reasons being saddled with a bite history is not something to be taken lightly.


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## FeelTheBern (Jan 13, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Why do you ask anyway?


I was just interested because I'd never seen you mention guardian breeds.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2018)

FeelTheBern said:


> I was just interested because I'd never seen you mention guardian breeds.


Oh, I was wondering why did you ask within the context of the thread.

I've mentioned guardian breeds plenty  I just don't think you frequent those threads, it's usually in dog chat.

Edit: just for shits and giggles I did a search for keyword: guardian breed posted by member: ouesi
got 124 results.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

ouesi said:


> keyword: guardian breed posted by member: ouesi
> got 124 results.


It's just possible that you might like guardian breeds, based on this!


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2018)

CuddleMonster said:


> It's just possible that you might like guardian breeds, based on this!


Nah.. Can't stand 'em. PITAs all of 'em!

@HarlequinCat sorry for the derail 
Any updates?


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Nah.. Can't stand 'em. PITAs all of 'em!
> 
> @HarlequinCat sorry for the derail
> Any updates?


No worries! Talking about dogs defending a house and whether that should be allowed or not is a natural progression on a pet forum!

The OAP and his wife have been put under police protection as threats against them have increased. It seems that the guy who was killed had links with the traveller community and they aren't too happy. Bizarrely, and probably by the travellers, there has been a load of flowers put at the house in memory of the burglar!
One guy is still on the run, called Billy Jeeves.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-run-burglar-billy-jeeves-wanted-connection/


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I would fight , Scrip would bark!!! None of us are big but we are valiant!
Garfield will hide....Goldfish are totally useless...
OH will try to talk nicely
My eldest would swear, the rest will just sit and watch....

 That is today...


Many years ago my friend and I caught a burglar red handed in our tent!
He was on his way out , very disheartened - “ You have nothing to steal !” He shook his head in utter contempt and left. 

We felt such a time wasters....


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2018)

HarlequinCat said:


> The OAP and his wife have been put under police protection as threats against them have increased.


That is absolutely ridiculous!! (That they're being threatened, not that they're under protection.)
What kind of logic is that to be angry at the person who defended themselves? What should he have done, offered them a cup of tea and helped them load the valuables in to the white van?!


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

ouesi said:


> That is absolutely ridiculous!! (That they're being threatened, not that they're under protection.)
> What kind of logic is that to be angry at the person who defended themselves? What should he have done, offered them a cup of tea and helped them load the valuables in to the white van?!


Travellers live by a different set of rules I'm afraid, sometimes it seems they are above (beyond?) the law!


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

ouesi said:


> That is absolutely ridiculous!! (That they're being threatened, not that they're under protection.)
> What kind of logic is that to be angry at the person who defended themselves? What should he have done, offered them a cup of tea and helped them load the valuables in to the white van?!





BlackadderUK said:


> Travellers live by a different set of rules I'm afraid, sometimes it seems they are above (beyond?) the law!


Yep, they tend to think they are above everyone else. And when something happens to one of their own they do tend to retaliate.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

If someone broke into my house the small black hairy creature would bark his head off and bounce up and down nonstop immediately in front of them, making it difficult for said intruder to move more than a couple of inches.

Miss Pei Face would stand silently watching them intently just waiting for them to make one false step. Although she's a softy she is after all a guardian breed and very much a "don't dare touch anyone/thing I love, or you'll have me to answer to" dog, but having said that she really would have to be pushed to the limit to attack and if I was there it would only be on my say so.

My previous Pei was just the same. I've seen her walk a Mal of my property after it went for Chloe my Tibetan Spaniel (who did have the satisfaction of biting him on the nose) and when I was threatened by a man whilst out on a walk she growled and lunged at him .... as they say ... he moved so fast you couldn't see him for dust!

This is an article about Boo the Pei defending his home against an intruder,

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ter-news/boo-shar-pei-burglar-jailed-11451182


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> This is an article about Boo the Pei defending his home against an intruder,
> 
> https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...ter-news/boo-shar-pei-burglar-jailed-11451182


Still reading the article, but how awful! The poor pei nearly died!! Which is exactly as I said earlier, no dog is a match for a human wielding a weapon like a knife or worse a gun. If that intruder had a gun the dog would be dead  Nope, noppity nope nope.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Still reading the article, but how awful! The poor pei nearly died!! Which is exactly as I said earlier, no dog is a match for a human wielding a weapon like a knife or worse a gun. If that intruder had a gun the dog would be dead  Nope, noppity nope nope.


I know it made me feel sick just reading about it.

Sadly having lived in a country where violence was more or less the norm and where too many of my friends or acqaintances were raped/high-jacked/mugged or murdered for me to have any illusions. I've been mugged 3 times, had my car broken into twice and my house 3 times. I knew for a certainty that if I'd had a gun or knife I would have use it if my life had been threatened. (i did have a license and was taught to shoot from an early age). I know I suffered from PTSD as a result for at least a year after moving to Hungary where the crime rate is very low and before I felt safe. Even now I hate going out in the dark.

An example of the kind of the minor thing that used to often happen. A friend and I were staying in a rented flat for the weekend when a young man knocked on the door saying he was employed by the owners and had come to check if everything was OK. He then pushed past my friend and headed straight for my bedroom where he stole my purse. As he came out of the bedroom I managed to grab him long enough to tear his shirt and retrieve my purse whilst yelling to my friend to open the door so I could shove him out. I managed to get him across the room (he wasn't a large man) but whilst pushing him into the corridor he tried to grab the keys from out of the door lock. My friend had the presence of mind to slam the door on his arm and hold it there whilst she got hold of the keys. He went off groaning obviously in considerable pain ... served him right!


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

Where ever did you used to live @Magyarmum?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Where ever did you used to live @Magyarmum?


South Africa. It's such a shame because I love the country dearly, but sadly it has one of highest murder rates in the world.

52 people are murdered every day!

http://www.heraldlive.co.za/news/2017/06/09/sas-murder-rate-among-world-highest/

https://africacheck.org/factsheets/south-africas-crime-statistics-201617/


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Blaise in Surrey said:


> Where ever did you used to live @Magyarmum?


I'd hazard a guess at South Africa - got friends who used to live out there and they tell a very similar tale...

Our family border collie of many moons ago was a huge softy, but he did have a keen sense of property boundaries. He used to love to sit in the glass fronted porch in the summer watching the world go by, but we'd usually have to call him in after a while as he would start to bark at passers by - nothing major, just a few woofs, but we didn't want to annoy the neighbours. Anyone actually approaching the house would have been loved to death, he adored people 

There was one night he defended his home with honour, though! Our family home is on the corner of an estate on the side of a hill, and all the houses have a side gate at the front and a path down the side of house past the back door to the garden through to the garden. Our house is a bit different, as the next house is raised up on a two metre retaining wall due to the hillside, so the side passage is walled on both sides and quite dark, epecially at night as there is a street light directly opposite the house so the area behind the solid gate is in shadow and very much impossible to see into. Also, as the garden is huge and securely fenced, we had a dog flap in the side door (there was another internal door we close when out). Anyway, one night Mum and Dad were going to bed when they heard someone trying to get over our side gate. Before Dad could get downstairs, the dog flap went BANG-Bang-bang, the dog himself started barking, and the person trying to get over the side gate hightailed it out of there before they even managed to finish opening the gate! I don't know what they thought was after them, but he was tall for a for a BC with a large chest and had a big, deep woof that sounded as if it belonged to a much bigger dog, plus he was mainly black on top (he only had a small white heart shape on the back of his neck and a white muzzle and tail tip) so he would have been impossible to see in that passage. He didn't go any further than the gate, just stood there and barked his head off, but I'm guessing the would-be intruder needed a change of undergarments...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

The Dane was originally bred for hunting. It is not a guardian and was never considered to be.

Although any dog can become protective of its territory and its owner/s, the behaviour in itself does not make them guardians.

_On a scale of 0 - 10; 0 being the most inattentive and 10 being the most intense, the Dane comes somewhere between Goofy, Pluto and Scooby Doo. To suggest that it is a guardian is a load of Hong Kong Phooey._

However, in all seriousness, to impress upon people that any pet breed or other type of working dog (hunting/herding) can be compared to a specialist guardian breed in this respect (acting as a guardian dog) is not only complacent, but also genuinely dangerous.
Potentially, you'd have novice owners from all walks of life queuing up for the most serious of guardians before you even had the opportunity to redress such a careless statement.

E.g. the Dane is not considered in the same category as Livestock guardians, which have been bred for hundreds of centuries to guard. The difference in characteristics and temperaments between the two breeds is prodigious. Danes are most likely to welcome intruders in to the home, at most they might bark.

LGDs are most likely to stop the intruder, regardless of who that intruder is. The guarding instinct is intrinsic to them. It is their essential nature. You will not train an LGD not to guard.
They can be familiarised to or better acquainted with specific situations (the postman cometh but not beyond the point of his recognised and accepted duty) and, therefore, do not need to react when the owner is absent.

On the whole a stanger, whether that stranger be a criminal, a police officer, a social worker or the gas man, he will be viewed no differently by an LGD. Guardians do not discriminate.
It's preposterous to suggest that a guardian can be 'trained' not to stop an intruder, whilst the owner is absent, and to those who believe it can be, then they quite obviously do not understand the creature at all.
You cannot train instinct out of such dogs and to even suggest it is possible, is grossly misleading and wrong.

Of course, some LGD's have lost their natural ability to guard. This is because their nature is slowly being bred out of them for show and exhibition specimens and to meet the desires of giant dog fanciers worldwide.
Even so it should be realised that deep within some of these animals, the ghosts of their instincts might always be lurking.

*ETA :* 29/08/18 Astounding! A written piece I've used on many other occasions (different breed related to on each of those occasions) heavily edited because hard facts and truths are not palatable to those who demand the truth be hidden from everyone else.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Zaros said:


> I can recount an experience dating back to the early 90's (UK) when the rather large Baskerville hound type dog I had rescued from the RSPCA caught an intruder in my house. At the time of the break in I was on my way home from work.
> The man confessed to being pinned against the wall whilst the dog stood over him for approximately half an hour.
> The police arrived about 15 minutes later and despite him receiving wounds to his hands and a torn ear, no charges were ever brought against me or the dog.
> According to my legal advisor, if you're not in your home at the time the hapless burglar breaks into your property and comes face to face with your dog instinctively protecting its territory, you are not liable to prosecution.


It would seem some of us have jumped to a few premature conclusions regarding the above post.

But not to worry, so did the police officers who came to arrest the intruder.

During the interview the man confessed to having his ear ring torn out whilst attempting to extract his head which had become trapped in the aperture of the quarter light window (that's the small top window that opens out and upwards) which he'd squeezed his arm, head and shoulder through in order to reach the latch to the bigger window directly below it.

Not deterred by his injury he entered the kitchen via the large open window.

The kitchen door was always closed, and beyond this door, the through lounge and dining area.

Kitchen door open.....enter one rather large dog who was not happy to see a complete stranger on his territory.
In his panic the man attempts to exit the property via the same means he had made entrance. Unfortunately, in his haste. he broke several drinking glasses standing on the drainer, thus cutting his hands. The dog never touched him.

So why didn't the dog bark or raise some alarm?

I suppose the answer to that mystery could only be solved by his previous owners.
Nevertheless, in all the time I owned him, until his death, he never barked, whimpered, whined or howled once.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Zaros said:


> It would seem some of us have jumped to a few premature conclusions regarding the above post.
> 
> But not to worry, so did the police officers who came to arrest the intruder.
> 
> ...


When I was a child my grandfather who was a farmer, had two dogs - Bruce a black Labrador who'd been trained as a gun dog, and Bess a white English Bull Terrier used as a general farm dog. (Bess was my shadow and went everywhere with me)

One evening Bruce came in to have his dinner but Bess was nowhere to be found, My grandfather didn't worry believing she'd turn up later - which she didn't! Early the following morning after searching all over for her he found her in one of the barns standing guard over a very frightened tramp who was sitting huddled in a corner.

The tramp told him he'd gone into the barn the previous evening hoping to sleep there only to be discovered shortly afterwards by Bess. She'd manoeuvred him into the corner where she stood guard over him whilst he'd spent a sleepless night not daring to move a muscle, because whenever he did she growled at him!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> When I was a child my grandfather who was a farmer, had two dogs - Bruce a black Labrador who been trained as a gun dog, and Bess a white English Bull Terrier used as a general farm dog. (Bess was my shadow and went everywhere with me)
> 
> One evening Bruce came in to have his dinner but Bess was nowhere to be found, My grandfather didn't worry believing she'd turn up later - which she didn't! Early the following morning after searching all over for her he found her in one of the barns standing guard over a very frightened tramp who was sitting huddled in a corner.
> 
> The tramp told him he'd gone into the barn the previous evening hoping to sleep there only to be discovered shortly afterwards by Bess. She'd manoeuvred him into the corner where she stood guard over him whilst he'd spent a sleepless night not daring to move a muscle, because whenever he did she growled at him!


For some strange reason your story puts me in mind of the Hayley Mills/Alan Bates movie, 'Whistle down the wind' .


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

ouesi said:


> That is absolutely ridiculous!! (That they're being threatened, not that they're under protection.)
> What kind of logic is that to be angry at the person who defended themselves? What should he have done, offered them a cup of tea and helped them load the valuables in to the white van?!


They are travellers that is traveller mentality to act like their loved one is the victim. Another traveller, who was involved in a bare knuckle fight with the man who died, said Vincent would have killed the pensioner if he could get away with it and that friends and family of Vincent will stop at nothing to get revenge. They are a law unto themselves with a warped sense of reality.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> South Africa. It's such a shame because I love the country dearly, but sadly it has one of highest murder rates in the world.
> 
> 52 people are murdered every day!
> 
> ...


A friend of mine is from South Africa and her fiancé was murdered.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

There was discussions on the Jeremy Vine show on R2 today regarding the flowers, etc that have been placed near the home where the burglar died .... am not sure how I feel about that. In some ways he still had family, etc but maybe they shouldn't be displaying these near to where the older couple who were the real victims in all this live.

I wonder if they will ever be able to return to their home & even if they do then the worry of revenge attacks must be a real concern. How awful for them at their time of life to have these worries


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2018)

Oh how I love it when people who have never owned my breed try to tell me what is what about the breed I have owned, worked in rescue with, worked with breeders with, and known closely for decades. 



Zaros said:


> The Dane was originally bred for hunting. It is not a guardian and was never considered to be.
> 
> Although any dog can become protective of its territory and its owner/s, the behaviour in itself does not make them guardians.
> 
> On a scale of 0 - 10; 0 being the most inattentive and 10 being the most intense, the Dane comes somewhere between Goofy, Pluto and scooby Doo. To suggest that it is a guardian is a load of Hong Kong Phooey.


The Great Dane as we know it today was developed in Germany in the 1800's, becoming the national breed of Germany in 1876. It was a dog bred initially for hunting but also used very much as an estate guardian. 
Still today in Germany, Great Danes are used in IPO (what used to be called Schutzhund for those who might not know) protection training and do quite well, though it's not as easy to find decoys eager to catch danes 

In the 80's in Spain I worked at a horse barn that used great danes as protection against horse thieves. These dogs were lovely with us kids, but they were also serious about their job and did it very well 

Scooby Doo was a cartoon. Not an actual dog. Interestingly in the 70's in the US, great danes were known as very aggressive dogs and were starting to get a reputation like that of rotties, dobies, and GSDs. Responsible breeders got together and made a concerted effort to breed more stable temperaments.



Zaros said:


> E.g. the Dane is not considered in the same category as Livestock guardians, which have been bred for hundreds of centuries to guard. The difference in characteristics and temperaments between the two breeds is prodigious. Danes are most likely to welcome intruders in to the home, at most they might bark.


Of course a great dane is not a livestock guardian. Dogs come in different categories  There are livestock guardian breeds (the hint is in the livestock part) and there are guarding breeds like great danes who were bred to protect property and owners. Great danes are at the lower end of guarding compared to say a Fila Brasiliero, in the same way a pyr would be at the lower end of livestock guarding compared to a CAS (central Asian shepherd).

I never claimed a great dane was a livestock guardian. They were bred initially to hunt boar, and a dog you use to hunt animals generally does not do well protecting a flock of animals that can be hunted  
Yes, they are entirely different dogs than a LGD, there is zero *livestock* guarding in a great dane. 
But of course anyone who knows what they're talking about understands the multiple levels and categories of guarding dog that exist that range from the livestock guardians, bred to guard a flock and work mostly independently of humans to more mellow but still strong instincts in dogs like dogue de bordeaux, all the way to very handler oriented breeds like WLGSDs and dobies who guard humans and work very intimately with a human handler.



Zaros said:


> Of course, some LGD's have lost their natural ability to guard. This is because their nature is slowly being bred out of them for show and exhibition specimens and to meet the desires of giant dog fanciers worldwide.


Yes, which is why so many guardians of the breed (ha ha, see what I did there?) prefer their dogs go to working homes where they can truly use their inherent drives and instincts, and the breeder can watch how these dogs work and adjust their breeding program accordingly. Same as a WLGSD breeder will watch how their dog bites, what drives he works in, etc., and pair him with the best bitch to compliment the good and improve upon the faults.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Closing this for now to review some posts


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Lots of flowers from the family were hung on a neighbours fence , the neighbour took them down and placed them on the pavement. The family put them back on the fence. I bet that they will always use that place as a shrine . 
I would be furious if that was my fence . 
There were messages saying what a good man he was ! 
Reminds me a bit of gunman Raoul Moat who shot three people and ended up shooting himself , people made him a hero and left flowers where he died . Shows how sick and deluded some people are .


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## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

I know, the 78 year old probably won't be able to go back to his own home now. At least not in the near future. These people can hold grudges and would harass him if he went back.
AT that time in your life you should be able to feel safe in your home. But he and his wife have to stay away now. His wife suffers arthritis, and all this stress and worry will be making it worse too.

Beyond ridiculous.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Lots of flowers from the family were hung on a neighbours fence , the neighbour took them down and placed them on the pavement. The family put them back on the fence. I bet that they will always use that place as a shrine


That neighbour is more generous than I would have been, then. I'd have filed them in the compost bin...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

If Henry Vincent was so bleedin' well liked, then why did his accomplice, Billy Jeeves, leave such a nice bloke behind to die?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I think it’s outrageous that the “shrine” is being allowed opposite the house he burgled.

Two elderly people were traumatised by his actions and he is being hailed as a hero! 

Personally I don’t think he deserves a memorial at all but if his family and friends want one then put it outside his own house.

The owner of the fence, neighbours and the elderly couple are being completely disregarded here.

The authorities should insist it’s removed and relocated.

I would not be proud of any association with such a person and think a memorial is wholly inappropriate tbh


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I’ve read this morning that the police have asked the neighbours to leave the flowers alone. If it were my bl**dy fence they were being fastened to I’d definitely be arguing that one.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I've got mixed views about the flowers/shrine. His family want/need to grieve for their loss just like anyone else's family do and these days it is common to lay flowers/put up notices at the spot where someone died. I think the more the neighbours fight this and tear them down the more angry and revengeful the friends and family will be and the less likely it is the couple will ever be able to return there. Scum bag he no doubt was but he was a father/partner/son as well and I'm not sure denying those people an outlet for their grief achieves anything.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

havoc said:


> I've read this morning that the police have asked the neighbours to leave the flowers alone. If it were my bl**dy fence they were being fastened to I'd definitely be arguing that one.


And if it were my fence, I'd take the bloody thing down. Then charge the Vincent groupies with fly-tipping.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've got mixed views about the flowers/shrine. His family want/need to grieve for their loss just like anyone else's family do and these days it is common to lay flowers/put up notices at the spot where someone died. I think the more the neighbours fight this and tear them down the more angry and revengeful the friends and family will be and the less likely it is the couple will ever be able to return there. Scum bag he no doubt was but he was a father/partner/son as well and I'm not sure denying those people an outlet for their grief achieves anything.


Of course, but not outside the property he burgled.

His family's needs don't Trump everybody else's.

The authorities need to take control of this situation and tell them to move the "shrine" to his home.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> Of course, but not outside the property he burgled.
> 
> His family's needs don't Trump everybody else's.
> 
> The authorities need to take control of this situation and tell them to move the "shrine" to his home.


I can understand that point of view too and I'm not suggesting his family's needs trump everyone else's but trying to see it from their point of view why shouldn't they be allowed to have a shrine at the place their son/partner/father died? We allow flowers/tributes on road sides - sometimes the person who died might have been drunk or under the influence of drugs etc. Like I said he might have been a scum bag and clearly he was a thief/house breaker but does that mean his family should not be allowed to mourn him in the way they feel is appropriate? I just think if the neighbours let them get on with it in peace (surely we can all show compassion and respect for grieving relatives) it would be finished with sooner - perhaps the authorities should have intervened and given them a set time that they would allow the "shrine" before removing it. Not sure.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can understand that point of view too and I'm not suggesting his family's needs trump everyone else's but trying to see it from their point of view why shouldn't they be allowed to have a shrine at the place their son/partner/father died? We allow flowers/tributes on road sides - sometimes the person who died might have been drunk or under the influence of drugs etc. Like I said he might have been a scum bag and clearly he was a thief/house breaker but does that mean his family should not be allowed to mourn him in the way they feel is appropriate? I just think if the neighbours let them get on with it in peace (surely we can all show compassion and respect for grieving relatives) it would be finished with sooner - perhaps the authorities should have intervened and given them a set time that they would allow the "shrine" before removing it. Not sure.


Because it's somebody else's property.

I do believe the family have a right to their grief but no right to create a memorial on private property.

It is someone's home at the end of the day.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Rafa said:


> Because it's somebody else's property.
> 
> I do believe the family have a right to their grief but no right to create a memorial on private property.
> 
> It is someone's home at the end of the day.


Yes I understand that too but its the pavement side of the fence not inside the boundary of the property. The way I think about it which I know many won't agree with is if I killed a person by accident on my property, even though that person had no right to be there and I hadn't intended to kill them I would still feel sorrow at their death and still feel sympathy with their family who have lost their son/partner/father. Would it hurt me in any way to have some flowers and balloons and messages on my fence? It would no doubt upset me and irritate me but it wouldn't actually hurt me and in this case the elderly couple are not there so again what harm is it doing to let the family grieve which might help them to move on.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I understand that too but its the pavement side of the fence not inside the boundary of the property. The way I think about it which I know many won't agree with is if I killed a person by accident on my property, even though that person had no right to be there and I hadn't intended to kill them I would still feel sorrow at their death and still feel sympathy with their family who have lost their son/partner/father. Would it hurt me in any way to have some flowers and balloons and messages on my fence? It would no doubt upset me and irritate me but it wouldn't actually hurt me and in this case the elderly couple are not there so again what harm is it doing to let the family grieve which might help them to move on.


I kind of agree with this. We can't control people- yes, the burglar clearly not the best human. But we don't know anything about these people- other than presumably they're grieving and grief does funny things to people. Also media and fuss attracts people to do funny things and to keep escalating things.

Britain's great cause we let people express themselves if they want to- no matter how much we disagree with it, and we ignore them and mutter or come to places like this and express how we feel too. I think, unfortunately it needs de-escalating so all parties feel their needs are being met. Until it will, in time, fizzle out...


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The way I think about it which I know many won't agree with is if I killed a person by accident on my property, even though that person had no right to be there and I hadn't intended to kill them I would still feel sorrow at their death and still feel sympathy with their family who have lost their son/partner/father.


Maybe in some circumstances like mentioned above - a car accident or something similar - but in this case.....no sympathy or sorrow at all from me I'm afraid.

In fact, sorrow would be the furtherst thing from my mind.

The fact is that he should not have been there. He was terrorising an elderly couple in their own home and got what he deserved. If his family want to mourn him, they should do it on their own property, not the property of the VICTIM.

The elderly couple are not there because they are afraid to go back, not by choice.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Doyley said:


> *Maybe in some circumstances like mentioned above - a car accident or something similar - but in this case.....no sympathy or sorrow at all from me I'm afraid.
> 
> In fact, sorrow would be the furtherst thing from my mind.*
> 
> ...


Easy to say, reality is very different. Most humans aren't built to kill other humans, either accidentally /self defending or on purpose.
None of us have a clue how we'd feel. Unless anyone here as killed someone, only they can really comment from experience.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Doyley said:


> Maybe in some circumstances like mentioned above - a car accident or something similar - but in this case.....no sympathy or sorrow at all from me I'm afraid.
> 
> In fact, sorrow would be the furtherst thing from my mind.
> 
> ...


The problem with that attitude is the escalation of hatred and violence. Has anyone actually asked the victim whether he minds the tributes? I don't think it paints his neighbours in a very good light either to pull down and destroy flowers and cards from the dead man's children and to stamp all over them. What exactly does that achieve?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can understand that point of view too and I'm not suggesting his family's needs trump everyone else's but trying to see it from their point of view why shouldn't they be allowed to have a shrine at the place their son/partner/father died? We allow flowers/tributes on road sides - sometimes the person who died might have been drunk or under the influence of drugs etc. Like I said he might have been a scum bag and clearly he was a thief/house breaker but does that mean his family should not be allowed to mourn him in the way they feel is appropriate? I just think if the neighbours let them get on with it in peace (surely we can all show compassion and respect for grieving relatives) it would be finished with sooner - perhaps the authorities should have intervened and given them a set time that they would allow the "shrine" before removing it. Not sure.


Because he died there as a result of committing a burglary in a home occupied by 2 elderly, vulnerable people opposite that spot.

Whether he has a memorial spot or not is really not the issue here IMO

Where it is, most definitely is.

Absolutely NOT there.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The problem with that attitude is the escalation of hatred and violence. *Has anyone actually asked the victim whether he minds the tributes?* I don't think it paints his neighbours in a very good light either to pull down and destroy flowers and cards from the dead man's children and to stamp all over them. What exactly does that achieve?


Let's face it, they would have no choice but to say they don't mind, would they, give the death threats already made against them.

And also given that, I can understand why many of the neighbours don't want the tributes around. They probably feel intimidated and under threat too, and the tributes are a reminder of that. After all, it could have been their house he broke into that night. As far as I understand it, another couple living in the road have offered the use of their fence a short way away for tributes as they sympathise with the family of the dead man, but so far I don't believe they have been taken up on it.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> The problem with that attitude is the escalation of hatred and violence. Has anyone actually asked the victim whether he minds the tributes? I don't think it paints his neighbours in a very good light either to pull down and destroy flowers and cards from the dead man's children and to stamp all over them. What exactly does that achieve?


IMO it is this attitude that is the reason this country is in such a mess.....always giving the benefit of the doubt, defending criminals, being scared to upset or offend criminals or affect their human rights or whatever other clap trap.......

If someone breaks into my house and threatens me and they end up getting hurt, that is their problem and theirs only. I am the victim, not them. They lose their rights as soon as they trespass on my property and threaten me.

And if the criminals family don't want their feelings hurt, then they should stop being criminals.....the whole family have history, it isn't like this is a one-off.

You may be happy with the way this country is becoming lawless, but I am not.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Doyley said:


> IMO it is this attitude that is the reason this country is in such a mess.....always giving the benefit of the doubt, defending criminals, being scared to upset or offend criminals or affect their human rights or whatever other clap trap.......
> 
> If someone breaks into my house and threatens me and they end up getting hurt, that is their problem and theirs only. I am the victim, not them. They lose their rights as soon as they trespass on my property and threaten me.
> 
> ...


There's a difference between laws and rights.
And laws work on evidence unfortunately, until the family break the law- you're knowledge of them only comes from papers and heresay- they get the same rights as the rest of the citizens, whether we like it or not.

The law is standing on the side of the pensioner. But it is the rights of everyone else to voice an opinion, whether we like it or not.
I get where you're coming fro, but the world isn't black or white in many cases, sometimes things are grey (not saying this case).

I've travelled widely. I'd rather live in our society than the real lawless ones or the ultra conservative law ones.

The grass isn't always greener.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I've got mixed views about the flowers/shrine. His family want/need to grieve for their loss just like anyone else's family do and these days it is common to lay flowers/put up notices at the spot where someone died. I think the more the neighbours fight this and tear them down the more angry and revengeful the friends and family will be and the less likely it is the couple will ever be able to return there. Scum bag he no doubt was but he was a father/partner/son as well and I'm not sure denying those people an outlet for their grief achieves anything.


But can't they grieve privately...like the vast majority of normal people do. I mean, talk about rub salt into the wound -"we'll grieve for our criminal son/brother/uncle whatever, not only publicly as if he was a hero or celebrity of some kind, but right outside the house he was set to rob blind".... Some people have little respect.

I think it's perfectly understandable neighbours would be tearing them down. I think it's in very poor taste to leave any tributes....


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

Julesky said:


> There's a difference between laws and rights.
> And laws work on evidence unfortunately, until the family break the law- you're knowledge of them only comes from papers and heresay- they get the same rights as the rest of the citizens, whether we like it or not.
> 
> The law is standing on the side of the pensioner. But it is the rights of everyone else to voice an opinion, whether we like it or not.
> ...


And you assume that no-one else has?

I'm just giving my opinion, the same as everyone else has on what is a very difficult subject. You may not agree and that's fine, I don't know you nor you me so let's not make assumptions.

All I am saying is what I PERSONALLY would do.......and I wouldn't give a flying **** what the law says about it.

I would defend my home and my loved ones no matter what it takes, end of story. If that meant that I did jail time, then so be it. For me this is black and white, absolutely no grey area.

What you would do is entirely your business.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Doyley said:


> IMO it is this attitude that is the reason this country is in such a mess.....always giving the benefit of the doubt, defending criminals, being scared to upset or offend criminals or affect their human rights or whatever other clap trap.......
> 
> If someone breaks into my house and threatens me and they end up getting hurt, that is their problem and theirs only. I am the victim, not them. They lose their rights as soon as they trespass on my property and threaten me.
> 
> ...


Oh dear, you have illustrated my point perfectly - escalation and anger in what should be a polite exchange of opinions. What do you know about me to assume I am happy with the way the country is being run? Where in my posts did I say I was happy with the way the country is being run? Where did I say I defending the criminal? For the record I think the householder was perfectly within his rights to do what he did and I have no sympathy for the guy who died although I do not believe the householder intended that to be the outcome. I think our law is an ass and that we should be able to defend ourselves and our homes with whatever means necessary. However I do *not *believe in punishing the family of a criminal and I do believe in forgiveness and kindness in times of grief. Got naff all to do with human rights and everything to do with human decency  Let me ask you a question - do you believe it is right/decent for people to take down flowers and a letter from the dead person's children and stamp all over them leaving them on the ground like any old trash?


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Doyley said:


> And you assume that no-one else has?
> 
> I'm just giving my opinion, the same as everyone else has on what is a very difficult subject. You may not agree and that's fine, I don't know you nor you me so let's not make assumptions.
> 
> ...


Dude, didnt assume at all. Chillll out.

I just said, 'I've' and then gave my opinion. Dont read into it. Of course other people have travelled/grown up/lived elsewhere.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> Because he died there as a result of committing a burglary in a home occupied by 2 elderly, vulnerable people opposite that spot.
> 
> Whether he has a memorial spot or not is really not the issue here IMO
> 
> ...


Yes I know why he died there, why do we need to punish his parents/partner/children by denying them a place on a fence for some flowers? What does that achieve? Certainly not closure for the family, the neighbours or the victims.



Jesthar said:


> Let's face it, they would have no choice but to say they don't mind, would they, give the death threats already made against them.
> 
> And also given that, I can understand why many of the neighbours don't want the tributes around. They probably feel intimidated and under threat too, and the tributes are a reminder of that. After all, it could have been their house he broke into that night. As far as I understand it, another couple living in the road have offered the use of their fence a short way away for tributes as they sympathise with the family of the dead man, but so far I don't believe they have been taken up on it.


Given they are elsewhere at the moment there is no reason they wouldn't feel able to tell the police how they feel about the flowers. It seems unlikely they are going to be able to live there again or possibly even want to so what does it achieve for neighbours to keep taking them down?



Dogloverlou said:


> But can't they grieve privately...like the vast majority of normal people do. I mean, talk about rub salt into the wound -"we'll grieve for our criminal son/brother/uncle whatever, not only publicly as if he was a hero or celebrity of some kind, but right outside the house he was set to rob blind".... Some people have little respect.
> 
> I think it's perfectly understandable neighbours would be tearing them down. I think it's in very poor taste to leave any tributes....


I don't know, I don't try to tell other people how they should grieve. I'm quite a private person so big tributes and flowers in public places are not my way but I can understand other people who want to do it. We allow roadside "shrines" for people who die in car accidents etc, do we judge the person who died before we allow the shrine? This one can have flowers at the spot where they died as they were innocently minding their own business but this one can't because they were under the influence of drink or drugs? The family of the person who died need to grieve whichever.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> But can't they grieve privately...like the vast majority of normal people do. I mean, talk about rub salt into the wound -"we'll grieve for our criminal son/brother/uncle whatever, not only publicly as if he was a hero or celebrity of some kind, but right outside the house he was set to rob blind".... Some people have little respect.
> 
> I think it's perfectly understandable neighbours would be tearing them down. I think it's in very poor taste to leave any tributes....


I agree with the poor taste and think also a touch humiliating/ retributional to the pensioner. Such a a shame.
Genuinely think though if media made less of a fuss/ people ignored for a while, they could be taken down sooner and not reattached quicker.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

Julesky said:


> Dude, didnt assume at all. Chillll out.
> 
> I just said, 'I've' and then gave my opinion. Dont read into it. Of course other people have travelled/grown up/lived elsewhere.


Liked your post because as we have both said, we both are entitled to our opinions and I am indeed chilled 

No offence meant......it's just the way I post.....sort of like open gob THEN engage brain, but in forum terms! :Sorry


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Doyley said:


> Liked your post because as we have both said, we both are entitled to our opinions and I am indeed chilled
> 
> No offence meant......it's just the way I post...*..sort of like open gob THEN engage brain*, but in forum terms! :Sorry


Easy done. Done a fair bit of it myself hahaha. 
Just didn't want you to think that's what i meant. It was a statement not a judgement.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> However I do *not *believe in punishing the family of a criminal and I do believe in forgiveness and kindness in times of grief. Got naff all to do with human rights and everything to do with human decency


You are perfectly entitled to believe whatever you like, as am I.

I have no interest in getting into a personal debate with you as we clearly have *very* differing views, so I will leave it there.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I know why he died there, why do we need to punish his parents/partner/children by denying them a place on a fence for some flowers? What does that achieve? Certainly not closure for the family, the neighbours or the victims.
> 
> Given they are elsewhere at the moment there is no reason they wouldn't feel able to tell the police how they feel about the flowers. It seems unlikely they are going to be able to live there again or possibly even want to so what does it achieve for neighbours to keep taking them down?
> 
> I don't know, I don't try to tell other people how they should grieve. I'm quite a private person so big tributes and flowers in public places are not my way but I can understand other people who want to do it. We allow roadside "shrines" for people who die in car accidents etc, do we judge the person who died before we allow the shrine? This one can have flowers at the spot where they died as they were innocently minding their own business but this one can't because they were under the influence of drink or drugs? The family of the person who died need to grieve whichever.


Nobody is saying the family can't have a shrine - just not there - for what I see as obvious reasons.

Their husband, brother, father is not the victim here.

It's a shame he didn't consider how his behaviour might effect them.

The fact the elderly couple will probably never be able to live there again, should they even want to doesn't mean it's ok for the "shrine" to be there. Even more reason it shouldn't IMO.

We shall agree to disagree.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know, I don't try to tell other people how they should grieve. I'm quite a private person so big tributes and flowers in public places are not my way but I can understand other people who want to do it. We allow roadside "shrines" for people who die in car accidents etc, do we judge the person who died before we allow the shrine? This one can have flowers at the spot where they died as they were innocently minding their own business but this one can't because they were under the influence of drink or drugs? The family of the person who died need to grieve whichever.


Not outside the property though. In all this debate about the rights & wrongs of leaving tributes or creating a shrine or whatever, the real victims are being forgotten about. If the family want to grieve then IMO the police should be telling them to so privately and not creating more unease and upset for the elderly couple and their friends/neighbours.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I understand that too but its the pavement side of the fence not inside the boundary of the property. The way I think about it which I know many won't agree with is if I killed a person by accident on my property, even though that person had no right to be there and I hadn't intended to kill them I would still feel sorrow at their death and still feel sympathy with their family who have lost their son/partner/father. Would it hurt me in any way to have some flowers and balloons and messages on my fence? It would no doubt upset me and irritate me but it wouldn't actually hurt me and in this case the elderly couple are not there so again what harm is it doing to let the family grieve which might help them to move on.


I can see what you are saying, but in some cases these ''shrines'' become permanent fixtures, maybe not to the same degree, since obviously in time memories fade and grief diminishes. But there are a couple near me, one on the A3 where a young traveller was killed when his truck was flattened between two lorries (lorry driver to blame). That was about ten years ago and there are still flowers laid on the hard shoulder each year on the anniversary of his death, obviously not as many, but always some. I'm sure this guy doesn't want a reminder of what happened every year; in fact I doubt he'll go back there for long. Apparently the council, on police advice, have installed security cameras and fire alarms (just in case). Plus some sort of reinforcements on the doors.
As the saying goes: you live by the sword . . . etc. Awful story all round with no ''winners''.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Doyley said:


> He was terrorising an elderly couple in their own home and got what he deserved.


Lucky the old guy didn't have a heart attack, crikey, he's pushing 80.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> Nobody is saying the family can't have a shrine - just not there - for what I see as obvious reasons.
> 
> Their husband, brother, father is not the victim here.
> 
> ...


I know their husband/brother/father is not the victim but he is still dead and so they still need to grieve. I just don't get how all this anger and trashing memorials is going to make things any better.



Dogloverlou said:


> Not outside the property though. In all this debate about the rights & wrongs of leaving tributes or creating a shrine or whatever, the real victims are being forgotten about. If the family want to grieve then IMO the police should be telling them to so privately and not creating more unease and upset for the elderly couple and their friends/neighbours.


Who is forgetting the victims though? Pretty much every post on here is understanding of why the victim acted as he did and supporting his right to defend his home. Its perfectly possible to support the victim and have sympathy for the family of someone who is dead. Who are we to tell them how they must grieve and whether it has to be private. Grief is grief. Every single day hospital staff, undertakers, church and crematoria staff have to deal sympathetically with the families of people who have done bad things. I certainly would not be proud of any relative of mine who took down flowers and a letter from the man's daughter and left them trashed on the street.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm not a complete cold hearted 845t4rd but I tend to figure it like this; if Vincent had not have been there he might still be alive today.

Still robbing old folks in the dead of the night.

Still risking inducing a fatal heart attack in some poor innocent old sod who had never hurt a soul in his life.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If his family were in any way decent they wouldn’t even consider putting flowers and cards on the nearby fence. They might be grieving, but they also should be ashamed. What do they tell the children? “Let’s put a card where burglar daddy was stabbed to death by his own screwdriver.”?

Ridiculous, and if they weren’t travellers the police would be asking them not to do it, rather than the other way round I don’t doubt for one second. The guy was a criminal involved in criminal activities and scaring an elderly couple. As it was his own screwdriver he was stabbed with, I doubt he was apologising and running away at the time.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> I'm not a complete cold hearted 845t4rd but I tend to figure it like this; if Vincent had not have been there he might still be alive today.
> 
> Still robbing old folks in the dead of the night.
> 
> Still risking inducing a fatal heart attack in some poor innocent old sod who had never hurt a soul in his life.


Fair comment, not sure anyone around here has any sympathy for him, I certainly don't but I do have sympathy for his parents/partner and children and wonder how alienated they must be feeling from a community who can't see their way to allowing some flowers/balloons and cards on a fence.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

Elles said:


> If his family were in any way decent they wouldn't even consider putting flowers and cards on the nearby fence. They might be grieving, but they also should be ashamed. What do they tell the children? "Let's put a card where burglar daddy was stabbed to death by his own screwdriver."?
> 
> Ridiculous, and if they weren't travellers the police would be asking them not to do it, rather than the other way round I don't doubt for one second. The guy was a criminal involved in criminal activities and scaring an elderly couple. As it was his own screwdriver he was stabbed with, I doubt he was apologising and running away at the time.


Pity you can't like a post multiple times......if I could, this would be it.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Doyley said:


> the whole family have history, it isn't like this is a one-off


I read that too, that the whole family has ''previous'' and are mainly ''career criminals'' . . . in fact most reports do seem to agree on that. I have to say, if that had happened to me, I would not want all his mates hanging around my fence with their wreaths and bouquets and having to run the gauntlet thro' them every time I went to the shop or went to post a letter.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> If his family were in any way decent they wouldn't even consider putting flowers and cards on the nearby fence. They might be grieving, but they also should be ashamed. What do they tell the children? "Let's put a card where burglar daddy was stabbed to death by his own screwdriver."?
> 
> Ridiculous, and if they weren't travellers the police would be asking them not to do it, rather than the other way round I don't doubt for one second. The guy was a criminal involved in criminal activities and scaring an elderly couple. As it was his own screwdriver he was stabbed with, I doubt he was apologising and running away at the time.


So would you tell his children they should be ashamed of their father and have no right to grieve publicly for him? Wow.


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## Doyley (Aug 23, 2017)

Calvine said:


> I read that too, that the whole family has ''previous'' and are mainly ''career criminals'' . . . in fact most reports do seem to agree on that. I have to say, if that had happened to me, I would not want all his mates hanging around my fence with their wreaths and bouquets and having to run the gauntlet thro' them every time I went to the shop or went to post a letter.


Exactly, but no-one wants to say that incase they "hurt their feelings". So what? Whose feelings do they care about when they are robbing and threating them?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Fair comment, not sure anyone around here has any sympathy for him, I certainly don't but* I do have sympathy for his parents/partner and children *and wonder how alienated they must be feeling from a community who can't see their way to allowing some flowers/balloons and cards on a fence.


As I do. It's always those left behind who have to pick up the pieces. We can only hope this unfortunate incident is a harsh lesson in life that his children will learn from.

Everything comes at a cost, and Vincent paid the ultimate price.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> just not there -


I understood from what I read that the burglar actually ran away and was some way down the road when he collapsed and died. He didn't actually die at the place he was hoping to rob . . . I think the 'tributes' are being left at the victim's house to get a message to him: ''You did this and we won't let you forget; that's why we're leaving flowers here instead of the place where he really died''.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Oh dear, you have illustrated my point perfectly - escalation and anger in what should be a polite exchange of opinions. What do you know about me to assume I am happy with the way the country is being run? Where in my posts did I say I was happy with the way the country is being run? Where did I say I defending the criminal? For the record I think the householder was perfectly within his rights to do what he did and I have no sympathy for the guy who died although I do not believe the householder intended that to be the outcome. I think our law is an ass and that we should be able to defend ourselves and our homes with whatever means necessary. *However I do not believe in punishing the family of a criminal and I do believe in forgiveness and kindness in times of grief.* Got naff all to do with human rights and everything to do with human decency  Let me ask you a question - do you believe it is right/decent for people to take down flowers and a letter from the dead person's children and stamp all over them leaving them on the ground like any old trash?


The problem we appear have here, though, is the family of the criminal seem to be sliding into the intent of punishing his victim and community. Also, they're not exactly helping by the large size of the shrine, or by describing the Mr Vincent as 'too good for this earth' etc. Yes, they lost a father/relative/community member, and yes, grief is irrational. However, that the only reason he died is because he was breaking and entering a pensioners house in the middle of the night, got stabbed with his own weapon and was unlucky enough for the wound to be fatal seems to be irrelevant (and, by accounts from those who know him, wouldn't have thought twice about stabbing his victim and his wife). As an established career criminal, he obviously didn't mind making his living off the misery of others. On the flip side of that coin, though, he obviously didn't worry too much about the effect jail time or any other side effect of his profession of choice could have on his family, so personally I'd probably have been fine with a few "we'll miss you" flowers, especially if the family asked first and showed at least some sign of respecting that the whole event was the unfortunate and accidental outcome of their relative deciding to commit a crime. If he were MY father, I'd be mortified and ashamed about his criminal lifestyle to try and celebrate him so publicly, though.

No, I wouldn't have stamped on the flowers or letters. That doesn't help things. And the sensationalist end of the media certainly isn't helping matters with it's reporting style. But I wouldn't have wanted the shrine there, either. Canonising a criminal who met his end in the commission of a crime doesn't feel right to me.


rottiepointerhouse said:


> Yes I know why he died there, why do we need to punish his parents/partner/children by denying them a place on a fence for some flowers? What does that achieve? Certainly not closure for the family, the neighbours or the victims.
> 
> Given they are elsewhere at the moment there is no reason they wouldn't feel able to tell the police how they feel about the flowers. It seems unlikely they are going to be able to live there again or possibly even want to so what does it achieve for neighbours to keep taking them down?


Given that some of the threats have reportedly been of the 'wherever and however long it takes' variety, I can understand them keeping quiet, as the family of the criminal appear to want vengeance now, not closure. I suspect they'll end up on the witness relocation program at this rate, personally.

And I suspect those taking the tributes down are annoyed that (in their view) a pensioner who accidentally killed a career criminal is being forced out whilst the criminal is being celebrated.


rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't know, I don't try to tell other people how they should grieve. I'm quite a private person so big tributes and flowers in public places are not my way but I can understand other people who want to do it. We allow roadside "shrines" for people who die in car accidents etc, do we judge the person who died before we allow the shrine? This one can have flowers at the spot where they died as they were innocently minding their own business but this one can't because they were under the influence of drink or drugs? The family of the person who died need to grieve whichever.


Personally, I believe it is how the parties involved conduct themselves that matter. Me, I don't like shrines. I also generally don't mind those who do like them indulging in them. However, there does need to be some sensitivity on both sides. Grieving isn't an excuse for intimidating or threatening behaviour. Neither do I like seeing the pensioner branded a 'hero' - he's just a guy who tried to protect his wife and home and unfortunately inflicted a fatal wound in doing so.

Or let me phrase that another way. To expand on your question, suppose someone is crossing the road one night just as a speeding, very drunk driver (with a known history of drink driving) comes skidding around the nearest bend and hits them. The pedestrian somehow manages to avoid serious injury, but the driver loses control when they slam on the brakes trying rto avoid the pedestrian and is killed in the crash. Now, in this case leaving flowers etc. isn't something that most people would have a problem with. However, if the tributes were accompanied by the family of the driver blaming the pedestrian for the crash, insisting the pedestrian should be arrested and charged for causing the death of the driver, threats of bodily harm to the pedestrian and a generally unpleasant manner to the local community, would that also be acceptable? I would suggest no more acceptable than praising the pedestrian for ridding the town of a notorious drunk driver.


Calvine said:


> I understood from what I read that the burglar actually ran away and was some way down the road when he collapsed and died. He didn't actually die at the place he was hoping to rob . . . I think the 'tribute' are being left at the victim's house to get a message to him: ''You did this and we won't let you forget; that's why we're leaving flowers here instead of the place where he really died''.


I _think _he collapsed further up the road, but died in hospital. Certainly he was pronounced dead at the hospital, not at the roadside.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Calvine said:


> I understood from what I read that the burglar actually ran away and was some way down the road when he collapsed and died. He didn't actually die at the place he was hoping to rob . . . I think the 'tribute' are being left at the victim's house to get a message to him: ''You did this and we won't let you forget; that's why we're leaving flowers here instead of the place where he really died''.


I think they have been attached to the fence a little down the road/opposite the house from what I have read rather than at the victim's house.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/12/police-hither-green-tributes-henry-vincent

A few yards along the street in Hither Green, police stood outside Osborn-Brooks' home and kept a watchful eye on a crowd of reporters and photographers who had assembled in expectation of a protest, billed online as being in support of the local community.

About 200 people have joined a closed Facebook group that says it has been set up to arrange a peaceful protest to support residents of South Park Crescent, which it claimed are being "taunted by a constant shrine that is being set up by Henry Vincent's family".

"This group is not soft so feel free to post your concerns or frustrations about the situation, the press or the police," it adds.

However, the few residents who were prepared to speak as they passed the scene said they were unaware of any such protest. In at least one of the cases where the tributes to Vincent were torn down, *the person responsible said he had come from another part of London to do so*.

On Wednesday, a local resident pulled down the flowers, shouting: "These are scumbags, scumbags, scumbags. We've had enough in this country of scumbags." (This man can be seen in the video ranting scumbags)


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Jesthar said:


> The problem we appear have here, though, is the family of the criminal seem to be sliding into the intent of punishing his victim and community. Also, they're not exactly helping by the large size of the shrine, or by describing the Mr Vincent as 'too good for this earth' etc. Yes, they lost a father/relative/community member, and yes, grief is irrational. However, that the only reason he died is because he was breaking and entering a pensioners house in the middle of the night, got stabbed with his own weapon and was unlucky enough for the wound to be fatal seems to be irrelevant (and, by accounts from those who know him, wouldn't have thought twice about stabbing his victim and his wife). As an established career criminal, he obviously didn't mind making his living off the misery of others. On the flip side of that coin, though, he obviously didn't worry too much about the effect jail time or any other side effect of his profession of choice could have on his family, so personally I'd probably have been fine with a few "we'll miss you" flowers, especially if the family asked first and showed at least some sign of respecting that the whole event was the unfortunate and accidental outcome of their relative deciding to commit a crime. If he were MY father, I'd be mortified and ashamed about his criminal lifestyle to try and celebrate him so publicly, though.
> 
> No, I wouldn't have stamped on the flowers or letters. That doesn't help things. And the sensationalist end of the media certainly isn't helping matters with it's reporting style. But I wouldn't have wanted the shrine there, either. Canonising a criminal who met his end in the commission of a crime doesn't feel right to me.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with most of what you say, I've repeatedly said I don't have sympathy for him but I think the more the neighbours (see my link above to Guardian article) behave as they are doing (some of the people pulling down the tributes are not even neighbours allegedly) the more likely it is that the spot will become some sort of permanent memorial and the more the criminal will be "canonised" . A bit of understanding for their grief and allowing it to be expressed for a short time wouldn't go amiss and might just avoid a full on street riot and more recriminations.


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

There has to be a line somewhere. You can't have the families of terrorists turning up at the places they blew up to place tributes. It's all a matter of which side of the line you put this particular person on.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

The only victims in this whole scenario are the poor, very elderly couple who have had their lives ruined.

The family of the man who died have to live and deal with the fact that he died in the act of terrorising pensioners, during the night, in their own home.

If the old couple cannot even return to their own home, why should anyone else have the right to use it as a memorial to a cowardly criminal?

Whoever is placing these tributes must know they are adding fuel to the fire and inflaming an already highly charged situation.

I can't help feeling it would have been more appropriate for them to send flowers to the couple who are trapped in this horrible situation at a time in their lives when they deserve to be able to live peacefully, with a card expressing their sincere apologies.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

diefenbaker said:


> There has to be a line somewhere. You can't have the families of terrorists turning up at the places they blew up to place tributes. It's all a matter of which side of the line you put this particular person on.


Or just troublemakers with no affiliation to anyone stirring, the internet and it seems the world is more and more full of trolls, desperate for a reaction- any reaction. Notice me! Notice me!

I'm just going to try my best to not act like a d**k and be aware my actions impact on other people. If only more people learned that, these desperate fools wouldn't be so intent on revenge or attention.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Calvine said:


> I understood from what I read that the burglar actually ran away and was some way down the road when he collapsed and died. He didn't actually die at the place he was hoping to rob . . . I think the 'tribute' are being left at the victim's house to get a message to him: ''You did this and we won't let you forget; that's why we're leaving flowers here instead of the place where he really died''.


This. The whole family being pretty shady and dubious characters themselves makes me think this is more of a 'we know what you did and won't forget' etc than any genuine acts of grief. I don't blame the poor elderly couple feeling to unsafe to return.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Taking all emotion out of it - the fence belongs to somebody and last time I checked I own both sides of my fences. If someone painted racist graffiti on my fence I would be told to deal with it. This ‘shrine’ is no different, just vandalism but because the perpetrators are from a group which have the police running scared they get away with it.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Zaros said:


> a harsh lesson in life that his children will learn from


With four or five uncles running the family ''Firm'', unfortunately I think that's rather unlikely. I bet the funeral will be a flamboyant and attention-seeking affair, don't you?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

diefenbaker said:


> You can't have the families of terrorists turning up at the places they blew up to place tributes


You make a very good point there.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Calvine said:


> With four or five uncles running the family ''Firm'', unfortunately I think that's rather unlikely. I bet the funeral will be a flamboyant and attention-seeking affair, don't you?


I'm sure the odds might well be stacked against the children but I do know, from experience, not all Gypsies are crooked.

If they, like their father, do prove to have hearts of gold in the future, I hope they haven't been stolen from someone else.

But yeah, you're right. I too suspect the funeral will be a big production played out for all the world to see, because the media will make sure the world is there to see it.:Meh


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Does anyone here remember (or maybe it was a crazy dream I had) that a PF member posted that she . . . I think it was a she . . . got up one morning and found an unknown man in the kitchen making himself a cup of tea (or possibly coffee)? I remember thinking that she took it remarkably well.


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