# Spaying a pregnant cat



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

I am a regular feeder of a colony of feral cats. Most of them (the ones we can trap) are sterilised and set free again as they are not suitable for rehoming. Occasionally we find strays (not ferals) who have been dumped there by people who no longer want their cats. These we rescue and rehome (if possible). I do not take in starys myself as I have cats of my own, but I very recently came across a pregnant female and took her home to care for until her spaying (she is booked for tomorrow). However, it seems some people, including the vet, do not like the idea of spaying a pregnant female and it took some persuading from my side. Personally, although I do not like the idea (the cat should not have been pregnant in the first place), I would rather this very young underweight female did not bring forth any more unwanted kittens. She is a lovely girl with a good chance of rehoming. Am I wrong? Quite a number of people I have spoken to, expressed shock that she is to be spayed.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

I think this is a highly emotive issue, and you're likely to get rather extreme responses to this question.

There are some people in the right-to-life anti-abortion movement who are going to extend their emotions on this topic onto a pregnant cat and condemn you for it (and you will as likely come across them on this forum as in real life).

Personally, while of course we all wish that women (and cat-rescuers) did not find themselves in a position where they have to make this decision, the truth is that sometimes we do, and while making this decision is always tough I believe that it is important to be able to make it. 

It would make more sense to me to side with a life that already exists than with potential ones that don't exist yet, and can't know the difference either way. As you said, this female is young and underweight, and there is irrefutably potential damage that going through with this pregnancy could have, not just physically of course, and this is exacerbated by the fact that her body is already struggling, but I know that Tje (a rescuer with many years of experience) will testify to the heartbreaking emotional damage that young cats can develop when they have kittens too young.

She is young, has no need to have a litter of kittens (and certainly there is not a need for more moggy kittens who then need to be rescued and perpetuate the cycle), she certainly won't miss having them, and she could potentially be harmed by having them. I don't think you should be made to feel you are 'wrong' for making this decision, as it is based on having the welfare of this young cat at heart.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Koeke, the people who express shock and horror are generally people who dont move in rescue circles and arent in the slightest aware of how dire the situation is for strays, and people who have no idea the negative (health and mental) impacts raising a litter of kittens has on an undernourished and very young female. 

After all, these people who recoil in horror at the very word abortion  are they going to be coming to your home and bottle feeding the kittens every two hours when mum cant or wont do it? Will they cough up 20 euros per tub of milk powder? Are they going to socialize and train the kittens when mum cant or wont do it? Are they going to find homes for the kittens for they are 12 weeks old? Are they going to cough up the money that would be needed to vaccinate, worm and flea them and to take care of all the other necessary veterinary help they require? Are they going to let the mother cat and her kittens have a place in their home for at least 12 weeks with all the damage that entails on the home? 

I somehow dont think so. Its very easy to tell someone else what to do in circumstances like the one you find yourself in. 

Well done you for putting this cats needs above personal ideologies on abortion (neutering while pregnant) and of course well done for your TNR work with strays and ferals and for manning the feeding station! 

And those people who knock you bahhhhhhh . do like me and grow a very thick skin. They are basically clueless.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> but I know that Tje (a rescuer with many years of experience) will testify to the heartbreaking emotional damage that young cats can develop when they have kittens too young.


absolutely... and I just did... we were replying at the same time, hehe.

And you know it goes even further than just the negative impact to the mums mental (and physical) well being. Kittens born to these mums very often loose out greatly too. It's not a young undernourished mother cat's fault that she is worse than useless as a mother. But the kittens do so often pay the price when they don't get the necessary "lessons" from mum. A 14 week old kittens that scratches and bites inappropriately because he hasn't learned otherwise, well that's still quite cute it in an itsy bitsy kitten. Give him till he's 14 months and most likely he will be in a shleter or living on the streets.



Atlantys said:


> She is young, has no need to have a litter of kittens (and certainly there is not a need for more moggy kittens who then need to be rescued and perpetuate the cycle), she certainly won't miss having them, and she could potentially be harmed by having them. I don't think you should be made to feel you are 'wrong' for making this decision, as it is based on having the welfare of this young cat at heart.


and absolutely agree with this too.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Tje said:


> Koeke, the people who express shock and horror are generally people who dont move in rescue circles and arent in the slightest aware of how dire the situation is for strays, and people who have no idea the negative (health and mental) impacts raising a litter of kittens has on an undernourished and very young female.


I couldn't have put this better myself :thumbup:

Spaying a pregnant female cat does carry a higher risk, than spaying when non pregnant. But then giving birth is not without risk and as has already been wisely said by Tje, this queen is not going to be in the best condition to raise a litter anyway.

I think you are doing the very best thing for this cat, well done and to be honest, I wouldn't give a monkeys what people thought.

I've taken pregnant rescue cats in to be spayed in early pregnancy and don't regret it. There are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many cats being bred (one way or another) and the top and bottom of it is that there are NOT enough PERMANENT homes 

Hope this girl does well and she can indeed find a loving home. Keep us updated please :001_wub:


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

I work in cat rescue and operate a trap/neuter/release cycle for ferals.

I have many a time spayed a pregnant female, feral or not.

You have to remember if this cat is young and underweight and i'm guessing not in great condition then giving birth carries HUGE risks for her.

Whilst spaying carries a risk in my opinion the risk is far greated to let the pregnancy go ahead. There are not enough homes for cats and kittens as it is without bringing more into the world.

It's also worth knowing that the vets are very humane about this sort of thing and the kittens are sedated and put to sleep in the womb before the cat is spayed.

The only time I have let a cat go ahead with the pregnancy was one who was 8 weeks pregnant and very nearly due, as the kittens were viable (have a chance of surviving if born) we decided to let her have the kittens.

The mother cat died shortly after from complications, she was simply too ill and too weak to handle it. We were left with 7 kittens to hand rear - 5 of which died whilst attempting to do this.

It was very distressing and heartbreaking to watch and to this day I wish I had spayed that cat as she might still be here.

The people expressing shock as spaying a pregnant cat are generally those not in the rescue circle and have never had to see kittens die in this way or try and find homes for the hundreds of kittens in rescue.

It is a hard thing to have to do and it provokes strong responses but the welfare of the mum cat comes first.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

There are no circumstances short of extreme danger to the mother cat, or extreme welfare issues such as we do not have in this country, under which I would contemplate spaying a pregnant cat. If you insist on doing it - and obviously you do - then for your own protection I hope you have done everything you possibly can to find her owner - including advertising. If I were to find that someone had taken a cat of mine, assuming her to be a stray, and had spayed her whilst pregnant, I would be putting in a lawsuit for serious damages. Such a lawsuit might fail of course, but the stress you would be under while it went through might give you some difficulties. If you insist on taking this course of action PLEASE make sure that you have given ample time for the owners to respond to your advertisements. I am assuming of course that this cat has already been scanned for a microchip.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> There are some people in the right-to-life anti-abortion movement who are going to extend their emotions on this topic onto a pregnant cat and condemn you for it (and you will as likely come across them on this forum as in real life).


uh huh... I agree.



lizward said:


> There are no circumstances short of extreme danger to the mother cat, or extreme welfare issues such as we do not have in this country, under which I would contemplate spaying a pregnant cat.


Liz, just for the record (and because the OP deosn't know who she is talking with and what our induvidual personal ideologies are) .. would it be fair to say you fall into the anti-abortion (pro life) lobby that Atlanys mentions above? I mean for humans as well as cats, that you are just against abortion? Because that does mean everything in a disucssion like this. 



lizward said:


> Such a lawsuit might fail of course, but the stress you would be under while it went through might give you some difficulties.


stress???? that's not stress Liz babes, that's a challenge!! One I would positively welcome. I would thrive on it


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I would rather have a feral cat spayed pregnant or not unless they were very close to giving birth. It's better than risking birth and the stress of kittens. Not to mention the risk that she comes into season again quickly and is mated again. 

I'm pro-life with humans but this is a different scenario


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## TatiLie (Nov 2, 2010)

Bravo, girls!:thumbup:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> There are no circumstances short of extreme danger to the mother cat, or extreme welfare issues such as we do not have in this country, under which I would contemplate spaying a pregnant cat.


Is that because you don't believe in abortion or you would miss out on income from the kittens.

This naivety is a common problem with pet dog owners too.
They put their own emotional feelings before the well being of the dog or it's puppies.



> If you insist on doing it - and obviously you do - then for your own protection I hope you have done everything you possibly can to find her owner - including advertising. If I were to find that someone had taken a cat of mine, assuming her to be a stray, and had spayed her whilst pregnant, I would be putting in a lawsuit for serious damages. Such a lawsuit might fail of course, but the stress you would be under while it went through might give you some difficulties.


This appears to be a scaremongering threat - charming.

Checking for microchip should be done on all stray animals, but if ID can be found and I had found a young pregnant cat in very poor condition I would have little sympathy for an owner that had allowed that.



> If you insist on taking this course of action PLEASE make sure that you have given ample time for the owners to respond to your advertisements.


Time may well be of the essence here as (if it's like dogs) the risk does increase the further on in the pregnancy.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If somebody found a, I quote, "very young, underweight, pregnant cat" wandering the streets that belonged to me but had strayed/become lost I would be eternally grateful that they'd taken her in, cared for her and terminated her pregnancy with a spay. Surely anybody who'd agonised over the whereabouts of a lost cat would prefer that option rather than the awfulness of not knowing what had happened and where she was? Surely to god you wouldn't be thinking about legal action?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> There are no circumstances short of extreme danger to the mother cat, or extreme welfare issues such as we do not have in this country, under which I would contemplate spaying a pregnant cat.
> Liz


I think this post simply highlights your ignorance over the current cat welfare situation here in the UK. Cats (including pregnant ones) are living out on the streets in atrocious conditions because of the over breeding, intentional or otherwise of cats. In simple terms, too many are being born without enough permanent homes being available.

When I took pregnant mums in for spaying it was because our rescue already had a large number of adult cats and kittens of varying ages waiting for adoption. There simply wasn't anybody wanting the existing older kittens and adult cats, why bring more into a world where they are not wanted 

I had (like other rescues in the area) a waiting list of cats living rough, pregnant, in poor condition and simply "the unwanted" that people "wanted rid of" people calling daily asking for help with at risk cats. That is sadly the REALITY of rescue ...

If you think there are no extreme cat wefare issues in the UK then I suggest you become involved with local cat rescue, some areas are worse than others to be fair and it might not be too bad where you are. Try the inner city rescues and those in the North of England. These people and those in Northern Ireland (UK) would open your eyes to extreme welfare condions, believe me ...

I have taken cats in that have been hung, a Tom cat so dehydrated after being injured in a fight he looked as though he was made of cardboard (sorry to be graphic) he was pts to prevent further sufferring. One that haunts me was a queen, recently had kittens found seriously ill with womb infection, no kittens in sight, died despite all vet care. Abandoned kittens handed in half dead after mum was attacked and scared off by dogs, I could go on ... These are not even the tip of the iceberg 

If these are not "extreme welfare issues" then what is? As I type cats are outside NOW in freezing conditions because nobody gives a jot about them and the people who do, are already so overwhelmed with unwanted cats that as much as it breaks their heart, they can do no more.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Is that because you don't believe in abortion or you would miss out on income from the kittens.


good point :thumbup:



rocco33 said:


> This appears to be a scaremongering threat - charming.


of course it's trying, through creating fear, to stop someone having a pregnant cat neutered. I find a lot of the tactics used by the anti-abortion (pro life) lobby in the human world to be similar and centred around fear... well creating fear in a person who is already in a difficult place. I guess they don't have better tactics.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> If somebody found a, I quote, "very young, underweight, pregnant cat" wandering the streets that belonged to me but had strayed/become lost I would be eternally grateful that they'd taken her in, cared for her and terminated her pregnancy with a spay. Surely anybody who'd agonised over the whereabouts of a lost cat would prefer that option rather than the awfulness of not knowing what had happened and where she was? Surely to god you wouldn't be thinking about legal action?


I know, I would shake the hand of (and hug half to death) any kind hearted soul who would do for my cat what Koeke is doing for this stray.

To muddy the waters with threats of legal action... well... it is quite sick.

But as someone who improved my debating skills in my teenage years by calling up the abortion helplines, I can assure you that creating fear *is* an often used tactic in the pro life lobbies.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> of course it's trying, through creating fear, to stop someone having a pregnant cat neutered. I find a lot of the tactics used by the anti-abortion (pro life) lobby in the human world to be similar and centred around fear... well creating fear in a person who is already in a difficult place. I guess they don't have better tactics.


TBH, I don't believe in human abortion although I would not be in favour of it being outlawed. I think everyone's choice is there own and would never judge anyone, but I don't believe in it.

However, IMO, animals are different. They don't have human emotions, they don't desire babies etc and given the rescue problems, this is by far the better option (not to mention the health risks associated with any dog/cat birth much less one in poor health to start with).
I think people who put their human emotions on their pets are being unfair and thinking of themselves rather than the animals concerned.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> Liz, just for the record (and because the OP deosn't know who she is talking with and what our induvidual personal ideologies are) .. would it be fair to say you fall into the anti-abortion (pro life) lobby that Atlanys mentions above? I mean for humans as well as cats, that you are just against abortion? Because that does mean everything in a disucssion like this.


Yes I am indeed anti abortion



> stress???? that's not stress Liz babes, that's a challenge!! One I would positively welcome. I would thrive on it


You would? You're sure? Taking someone's property (which a cat is, in law) with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it, is theft. Everyone taking in a stray cat should make EVERY effort to find the owner. Equally, owners should microchip their cats, but until such time as all do, you cannot assume that a cat who turns up in someone's garden looking for food is in fact homeless, and far too many people do make that assumption. The OP here may have advertised this cat widely for all I know, I am only saying that she MUST do so before she does anything irreversible - and spaying a cat is irreversible.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> If these are not "extreme welfare issues" then what is? As I type cats are outside NOW in freezing conditions because nobody gives a jot about them and the people who do, are already so overwhelmed with unwanted cats that as much as it breaks their heart, they can do no more.


bloody well said lady!! :thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> I know, I would shake the hand of (and hug half to death) any kind hearted soul who would do for my cat what Koeke is doing for this stray.


You would? I'd take her straight to court, unless it was clear that she really had made an effort to find me first!



> To muddy the waters with threats of legal action... well... it is quite sick.


 Why?



> But as someone who improved my debating skills in my teenage years by calling up the abortion helplines, I can assure you that creating fear *is* an often used tactic in the pro life lobbies.


I have no intention in getting into the abortion debate on a cat breeding forum!

liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Is that because you don't believe in abortion or you would miss out on income from the kittens.


The first, of course. However in my case as a pedigree cat breeder, obviously if a pregnant cat of mine escaped the kittens would be desperately wanted.



> This appears to be a scaremongering threat - charming.


Not at all, it's called being realistic



> Checking for microchip should be done on all stray animals, but if ID can be found and I had found a young pregnant cat in very poor condition I would have little sympathy for an owner that had allowed that.


You would have no idea of the circumstances behind it.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Amethyst said:


> I think this post simply highlights your ignorance over the current cat welfare situation here in the UK. Cats (including pregnant ones) are living out on the streets in atrocious conditions because of the over breeding, intentional or otherwise of cats. In simple terms, too many are being born without enough permanent homes being available.


I will believe we have a serious welfare problem in the UK when I stop reading threads about perfectly good homes being turned down by the major rescues because of some inflexible rule.

Liz


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I will believe we have a serious welfare problem in the UK when I stop reading threads about perfectly good homes being turned down by the major rescues because of some inflexible rule.
> 
> Liz


Again this simply shows your ignorance of this area ...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> You would have no idea of the circumstances behind it.


No you wouldn't and you can't know everything - only try as far as you can.
I don't pretend to know anything about cat breeding, but if comparable to dogs, breeding puts a huge strain and has risks in healthy animals. Those risks would be far higher in a young undernourished animal.

If your prime concern would be to take the person to court and can afford to waste the money then that is your entitlement. I doubt you would get far anyway, but to use it as a threat to try to put someone off on a public forum, is rather underhand. Given the circumstances above, I doubt a court in the land would rule for you.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes I am indeed anti abortion
> 
> and spaying a cat is irreversible.
> 
> Liz


Death is pretty irreversible too.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes I am indeed anti abortion


well at least the OP will now know how. well. unlikely you are to budge from your standpoint however illogical that can be.

with regards to welcoming the challenge of a mickey mouse lawsuit



lizward said:


> You would?


Yes 



lizward said:


> You're sure?


Very 



lizward said:


> Taking someone's property (which a cat is, in law) with the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it, is theft.


Really Sherlock? Wow I never knew that. Come on Liz, stop trying to frighten the OP. She is just a rescue worker doing her best under very tough circumstances.

You give every dodgy breeder out there the benefit of the doubt. Yet you try to scare this lady. *That is sick!*

Would you rather people like her just left pregnant cats as strays outside in all weathers to give birth? Actually dont answer that, I know what the pro-life propaganda is.



lizward said:


> Everyone taking in a stray cat should make EVERY effort to find the owner.


Lizzy babes, granny eggs suck dont teach when I think I need a lesson on how to deal with stray cats, rest assured I will ask you. I think Ive dealt with enough to know what to the first steps are, but mucho gracias for your concern


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I have no intention in getting into the abortion debate on a cat breeding forum!


I didn't ask you to!

(perish the thought!! I would rather have red hot pins stuck in my eyes than have a "talk" with pro-lifers  ).

I merely pointed out to another member that fear tactics (scaring vulnerable people) are tactics often used by people like yourself, who are active in the anti-abortion lobby. And you are displaying my point admirably Liz sweetie:thumbsup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Death is pretty irreversible too.


and the prize for "quote/retort of the week" goes to GSkinner

:thumbsup:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tje said:


> and the prize for "quote/retort of the week" goes to GSkinner
> 
> :thumbsup:


Thank you  But the most I will acept is 2nd prize. Surely the accolade goes goes to 'spaying is irreversible' ? Honestly, Liz, I do always try to see both sides of a debate but there is/would be something seriously amiss both morally and legally if the first shout is 'oi! you spayed my cat and those kittens were planned' - rather than 'thank God, you found my cat and very probably saved her life'.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Thank you  But the most I will acept is 2nd prize. Surely the accolade goes goes to 'spaying is irreversible' ? Honestly, Liz, I do always try to see both sides of a debate but there is/*would be something seriously amiss both morally and legally if the first shout is 'oi! you spayed my cat and those kittens were planned' - rather than 'thank God, you found my cat and very probably saved her life'*.


nahhh I will give you "retort of the week" and make a special category for Liz's "spaying is irreversible" .... something like the Darwin Awards 

all jokes aside.... I *am* in total agreement with the bit I highlighted in bold. As someone who has had to make tough decisions with cats that could possibly be someone else's, it goes without saying no one neuters a pregnant cat for fun and giggles ... to threaten a rescue worker with something like legal action is just sick. It's water off a duck's back with me, but it's sad that some people in rescue can or would be intimidated by threats like this, or that some cat owners would be such ungrateful oafs as to make a threat like this to a rescue worker.

Someone posted not so long ago on the cat chat section about finding a badly injured cat and no rescue orgs had a place to take it in, so she took it to her vet. The cat was in agony and needed immediate treatement or put to sleep.... but the vet didn't dare treat the cat, or PTS, out of fear that the owners would come forward and slap a lawsuit on him. So the poor OP got given the Hobson's choice of "you sign this and then everything becomes your fault if I do any treatment that the owners considered wrong or unnecessary" or I will just leave him in this cage to die naturally (a painful and not quick death I should add). They left it in the cage to die naturally. These things happen because people are scared by threats of legal action. I am sure the vet, even if the owners had sued him, well the case would have been laughed out of court.... but the fear they create is real.


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

lizward said:


> I will believe we have a serious welfare problem in the UK when I stop reading threads about perfectly good homes being turned down by the major rescues because of some inflexible rule.
> 
> Liz


I have read these posts and sat on my hands, telling myself not to get involved, but I have to say, that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have read in a long, long time.

I am not involved in cat protection, but one does not have to have a triple figure IQ to know that in this country the animal shelters are full to bursting with unwanted cats, thousands of cats are PTS every year as they can not be re-homed or are so ill euthanasia is the kindest option available. Did you not see the documentary on the Celia Hammond Trust a few weeks ago?

The fact that Cats Protection have inflexible rules when it comes to re-homing cats does not detract from the fact that here in the UK we have a huge welfare problem when it comes to cats. Not as bad as in some countries maybe, but it is a huge problem. To deny it is...well I am lost for words, I really am.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> but to use it as a threat to try to put someone off on a public forum, is rather underhand[/B]. Given the circumstances above, I doubt a court in the land would rule for you.


yes it is a very underhand tactic

escpecailly from someone who continually bends over backwards to give every dodgy breeder who posts on here the benefit of the doubt.

very sad really .... masses of sympathy and understanding and mulling over of umpteen highly unlikely "what if" scenarios to condone bad breeding and make excuses for those who practice bad breeding, yet would slap a lawsuit on a rescue worker stuck between a wall and a hard place and only concerned with that is best for the cat, with no interest in the politics behind it.

:


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Maybe times have changed  but to be honest a few years ago, we would get get cats into rescue, give them a few days to settle and then if vet gave the okay, it was time to be neutered, no ifs or buts 

As I've previously mentioned, in situations where an adult Tom has not been neutered and a foster home is the only option, you can't have your home stinking for weeks on end while you wait and hope that *the owner who couldn't be bothered to neuter him* turns up :eek6:

I once took in a young tom cat and booked him into vet to be neuterd, owners turned up, gave them appointment details and said we would pay half. They never kept or cancelled appointment 
When I rang them just said "Changed our minds ...."

A month or so later a colleague passed their details on to me as thier cat had gone missing ...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Death is pretty irreversible too.


Indeed, and I would also sue any rescue who destroyed a cat of mine without making a serious effort to find the owner - unless of course the cat was suffering and could not be cured.

Liz


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes I am indeed anti abortion


Deary are you one of those abortion is murder chicks?

To the OP dont take the whole "abortion" prospect into account this is about whats best for the cat and any owner would be thankful to have their loving family pet returned unharmed and wouldnt really be too fussed about being fixed.

If that was the case with Alaska, I would just be thankful to have her back alive.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> You give every dodgy breeder out there the benefit of the doubt. Yet you try to scare this lady.


I am not trying to scare her. I am trying to make her think. Had she said "I have had this cat for three weeks and have been through all the local newspapers and called everyone who has lost a cat matching the description" I would not have mentioned it.



> Would you rather people like her just left pregnant cats as strays outside in all weathers to give birth? Actually dont answer that, I know what the pro-life propaganda is.


I would rather she took the cat in and let her have her kittens, in the meantime making every effort to find the owner!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

BSH said:


> The fact that Cats Protection have inflexible rules when it comes to re-homing cats does not detract from the fact that here in the UK we have a huge welfare problem when it comes to cats. Not as bad as in some countries maybe, but it is a huge problem. To deny it is...well I am lost for words, I really am.


Supply and demand. If rescues really were deep in the smelly do-dahs, they would be accepting FAR more homes than they are, unless you want me to believe that they would all rather destroy cats or that they have to keep full of cats so that they get donations?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Deary are you one of those abortion is murder chicks?




Cats are not humans, therefore the question of murder does not arise. I do not intend to discuss abortion on this board. Tje has to keep pink and fluffy, after all.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Hmmmmm 

Is she visibly pregnant ? Sorry I couldn't but I am not from a Rescue/Welfare back ground I would take good care of her and find good homes but that's just little ole me.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am not trying to scare her. I am trying to make her think. Had she said "I have had this cat for three weeks and have been through all the local newspapers and called everyone who has lost a cat matching the description" I would not have mentioned it.


ohhh right, but dodgy breeders who when specifically asked reatedly, did they have their kittens in heated outdoor accommodations when 4 of those kittens died, you endlessly give the benefit of the doubt to, but you just assume the rescue worker doesnt even bother trying to establish a true stray?

Thats not very equal treatment Liz sweetie, now is it?

Giving the (endless!) benefit of the doubt to BYBs and slamming law suits on rescue workers stuck between a rock and hard place 

but it does show your true colours .

And what about all that stuff dear Liz, that you posted last week about giving posters the benefit of the doubt and not scaring them off the forum and always being friendly and encouraging towards them.... that education had to come only after our initial encouragement??? Have you forgotten all that dear Liz??? I have it saved if you would like to re-read it, lol. 

or is this a case of do as I say and not as I do

because telling a volunteer rescue worker you would slap a lawsuit on them

(well apart from being totally ridiculous)

is actually quite a serious threat Liz sweetie. Much worse than just being criticized (rightly) for keeping kittens in unheated outdoors enclosures in a month where ground frosts and very low temps were reported.

badddd Liz!!  now go give your wrist a very firm slap! :thumbup:



lizward said:


> I would rather she took the cat in and let her have her kittens, in the meantime making every effort to find the owner!


wouldnt we all but most of us live in the real world and know there are not enough foster homes nor enough money to support this type of naïve wishful thinking.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Tje has to keep pink and fluffy, after all.


No Liz, Tje only has to keep *pink* and _fluffy_ to suit the moaning minnies like yourself who have a problem with straight talking (especially when that straight talking is directed at dodgy breeders who you feel the need to continually defend)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> ohhh right, but dodgy breeders who when specifically asked reatedly, did they have their kittens in heated outdoor accommodations when 4 of those kittens died, you endlessly give the benefit of the doubt to, but you just assume the rescue worker doesnt even bother trying to establish a true stray?


It is not my cat she has, the owner may feel differently, or she may not. I suggested that the rescuer needs to be very sure the cat was not about to be claimed, that's all. Why don't you want this lady to give herself reasonable protection by taking reasonable precautions?



> And what about all that stuff dear Liz, that you posted last week about giving posters the benefit of the doubt and not scaring them off the forum and always being friendly and encouraging towards them.... that education had to come only after our initial encouragement???


Even you cannot seriously believe that my comment that she should be very careful that she has done everything reasonable to find the owner is in any way intended to scare her off!



> because telling a volunteer rescue worker you would slap a lawsuit on them is actually quite a serious threat Liz sweetie.


Once again, it is not my cat she has. IF she had my cat and IF she had not, for example, bothered to scan it for a microchip, when in fact it was microchipped, or she had not looked in the local papers where I had been advertising for the whole week, and then she had the cat spayed, I would be livid and I think I would have every right to be.

Liz


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

lizward said:


> Cats are not humans, therefore the question of murder does not arise. I do not intend to discuss abortion on this board. Tje has to keep pink and fluffy, after all.
> 
> Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> No Liz, Tje only has to keep *pink* and _fluffy_ to suit the moaning minnies like yourself who have a problem with straight talking


For the record, I have not once made any complaint about any post on PF.

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

This place seems to be getting worse. 

Just a generalised statement, is this not a PET Forum or did I miss the bit when it turned into Bitchforum.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> This place seems to be getting worse.
> 
> Just a generalised statement, is this not a PET Forum or did I miss the bit when it turned into Bitchforum.


Welcome to the pfs breeding section, the cat section rates a 8 out of 10 on the bitch scale and the dog section 10 out of 10 on the bitch scale. Please remember that whilst on pf we try to keep ALL members happy and we aim to improve customer services as time progresses.

Pf's cant be held accountable for any arguements you may see regarding breeding, amount of times bred and conditions litters are kept in. Please dont not let this put you off pfs. You may find cat chat slightly more friendly.

:lol:


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Welcome to the pfs breeding section, the cat section rates a 8 out of 10 on the bitch scale and the dog section 10 out of 10 on the bitch scale. Please remember that whilst on pf we try to keep ALL members happy and we aim to improve customer services as time progresses.
> 
> Pf's cant be held accountable for any arguements you may see regarding breeding, amount of times bred and conditions litters are kept in. Please dont not let this put you off pfs. You may find cat chat slightly more friendly.
> 
> :lol:


What can I say.................:lol: :lol: thank you for making me laugh.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Supply and demand. If rescues really were deep in the smelly do-dahs, they would be accepting FAR more homes than they are, unless you want me to believe that they would all rather destroy cats or that they have to keep full of cats so that they get donations?


so sad Liz, so so sad.

while I am the first to agree that too many rescues have insane rehoming policies which embarrass and irk me in the extreme, at least I admit that these shortcoming are born out of the fact they are staffed by untrained and unskilled volunteer workers, working under pressure

it's so ugly (and totally unjust) to imply that rescues just hoard cats to get money in


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

Milly22 said:


> What can I say.................:lol: :lol: thank you for making me laugh.


No problem darlin, Join the pink side we have barbies!:thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> its so ugly (and totally unjust) to imply that rescues just hoard cats to get money in


Re-read my post, that was not what I said.

Liz


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

Just wanted to add that when a rescue finds a cat, feral or otherwise they legally hold that cat for 7 days before doing anything to the cat other than life saving treatment.

If after 7 days no owner has come forward (and the responsibility falls on the owner to find the cat not the rescue to find the owner although most will advertise etc.) then the cat legally belongs to the rescue and they can do what they see fit with the cat.

After this 7 days the owner has no comeback and cannot bring a lawsuit etc.

Remember we are talking about a very young, very underweight cat here. It is very doubtful it is owned and clearly not by anyone responsible seeing as the cat is un-neutered, not chipped and left to roam like this.

How would you feel Liz if your cat was found by a rescue and then died during labour because the rescue decided not to spay it?

Believe me I have seen that happen more times then I care for!

Also want to point out that in the eyes of the law a cat is not a possesion or property as you put it earlier and is classed as a wild animal, there would be no comeback on someone who decided to spay a cat that wasn't there's.

I took next doors cat to be spayed without there permission after it had it's forth litter born outdoors and left there by the owners to die, as the previous 3 had done.

I took the cat to the vets and spayed it, I don't care if it was the right thing to do, it was certainly the right thing to do for that cat and the kittens that were slowly dying whilst neglected.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Not read all the posts. Sorry.

But for me it depends on how far the queen is in her pregnancy. I could never do later on. So bearing in mind if the belly is big and the kittens are moving it would be too far for me!!

I would take over some of the responsibility of the kittens and obviously do my upmost for Mum.

I could not bear the thought of allowing kittens to be killed that _could_ survive outside the womb of the queen.

I am lucky to come from where do, although we have had an influx of cats in our one and only shelter sadly, we do only have one shelter and while it may be full now  it isn't always. And with over 60,000 people living here most of the cats get re-homed what the UK might call quickly!

A fair amount of the cats/kittens in the shelter are ferals/part ferals. But a catch/neuter/release programme has operated for a long time here.

And the above 2 statements MIGHT be why i feel like i do................but for me its a definate no in the later stages.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> But for me it depends on how far the queen is in her pregnancy. I could never do later on. So bearing in mind if the belly is big and the kittens are moving it would be too far for me!!
> 
> ................but for me its a definate no in the later stages.


Yes, this is exactly how I feel about it.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> it is not my cat she has, the owner may feel differently, or she may not. I suggested that the rescuer needs to be very sure the cat was not about to be claimed, that's all. Why don't you want this lady to give herself reasonable protection by taking reasonable precautions?


why do you jump straight in with threats of legal action before even asking what measures the OP has taken to find if the cat has any owners?

I did (repeatedly) ask the dodgy breeder with the dead kittens in the outdoor enclosure if she had any heating in that enclosure. That did not stop you from saying I was being too harsh to her.

Yet you are more harsh in this thread and you don't see the irony. I do 



lizward said:


> Even you cannot seriously believe that my comment that she should be very careful that she has done everything reasonable to find the owner is in any way intended to scare her off!


saying you would slap a lawsuit on someone doing voluntary rescue work, stuck between two very tough decisions, well that wasn't in the least bit welcoming or supportive or encouraging ... and those are all things you were preaching at me a week ago. 

All I am asking is that you practice what you preach Liz. Don't condemn others for being too quick to judge or too quick to be negative when you are doing the exact same thing here.

or is it only dodgy breeders and not rescue workers you want us to be sympathetic towards?



lizward said:


> Re-read my post, that was not what I said.


just did, and I still read the same sad & ugly thing I read first time around.


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## Annie2610 (Nov 14, 2010)

Tje just realised why you have that cat as your pic. Think *pink* and fluffy thoughts


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Annie2610 said:


> Tje just realised why you have that cat as your pic. Think *pink* and fluffy thoughts


no worries Annie . I am so far in the pink zone I had candlyfloss for dinner


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## dougal22 (Jun 18, 2010)

Tje said:


> no worries Annie . I am so far in the pink zone I had candlyfloss for dinner


Candyfloss AND all the bile on here. You must have a cast iron gut


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Oh my lord... tje.. lizard... hmm Deja Vu much?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

NicoleW said:


> Oh my lord... tje.. lizard... hmm Deja Vu much?


did you just call my bestest friend Lizward a lizard?

that's not very nice ! :arf:


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2010)

Tje said:


> did you just call my bestest friend Lizward a lizard?
> 
> that's not very nice ! :arf:












The mix up of names was funny though...:lol:

Lizards are nice creatures though so its not to bad to be called a lizard or is it as "liz 'ard"? Becuase the 2nd would be offensive.:lol:


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## NicoleW (Aug 28, 2010)

Lol oops, that was an honest mistake.

 Really was!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Another thread on here about to go silly and/or pointlessly argumentative


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Cat_Crazy said:


> Just wanted to add that when a rescue finds a cat, feral or otherwise they legally hold that cat for 7 days before doing anything to the cat other than life saving treatment.
> 
> If after 7 days no owner has come forward (and the responsibility falls on the owner to find the cat not the rescue to find the owner although most will advertise etc.) then the cat legally belongs to the rescue and they can do what they see fit with the cat.
> 
> After this 7 days the owner has no comeback and cannot bring a lawsuit etc.


That's more or less the same as it is here except here the owner has 14 days to claim their animal back. The local council pays the shelter for the first 14 days of care. An owner claiming the animal back is expected (must) pay to get the animal back. That is roughly, the cost of the "rescue" that can vary from nothing to a lot. Daily B&B costs the same as the private sector catteries. Worming and defleaing as standard and often vaccination costs and other necessary vet care.

However it is identical in as far as... the onus always falls on the owner to contact all the shelters, not the other way around. The shelter has no legal obligation to do any searching for owners, although most will phone the number stored on the microchip database, but this is often not kept up to date by the pet owners (as I'm sure you're aware, lol, but just stating for the benefit of others).

Vets (here) can and do do more than just basic life saving though .... they will almost always act in the best welfare interests of the animal as they see it. That could involve PTS, neutering a pregnant young & malnourished stray or treating any ailments that weren't lifethreatening (like say for instance ringworm, even though it is an expensive treatment). Owners claiming their animal back must reimburse all these costs to the shelter or they forefeit ownership.



Cat_Crazy said:


> I took the cat to the vets and spayed it, I don't care if it was the right thing to do, it was certainly the right thing to do for that cat and the kittens that were slowly dying whilst neglected.


Good for you, you did what was right for the cat!! It won't be the first time or the last time I have acted outside the law but inside an animals best interests. What is legal is not always ethical or right for cats. What is ethical and right for cats is not always legal. C'est la vie!!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Tje said:


> That's more or less the same as it is here except here the owner has 14 days to claim their animal back. The local council pays the shelter for the first 14 days of care. An owner claiming the animal back is expected (must) pay to get the animal back. That is roughly, the cost of the "rescue" that can vary from nothing to a lot. Daily B&B costs the same as the private sector catteries. Worming and defleaing as standard and often vaccination costs and other necessary vet care.
> 
> However it is identical in as far as... the onus always falls on the owner to contact all the shelters, not the other way around. The shelter has no legal obligation to do any searching for owners, although most will phone the number stored on the microchip database, but this is often not kept up to date by the pet owners (as I'm sure you're aware, lol, but just stating for the benefit of others).
> 
> ...


While i completely agree with the last statement! What about the kittens? Whats right for them? (i am talking in much later pregnancy)


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## NarutoKun (Nov 26, 2010)

I could not do it if the kittens were close to being born or were able to feel them moving.

If it were the early stages of a pregnant cat then yes. But I could not take someone else cat and have it spayed or neutered.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> While i completely agree with the last statement! What about the kittens? Whats right for them? (i am talking in much later pregnancy)


vets don't neuter that close to due dates. When they do neuter the kittens are not viable. And if you go back to my first or second post on this thread you will see exactly how kittens born to very young undernousrished mothers do lose out massively. Even when they do have life, they too often end up back in rescues or on the streets because they have behaviour issues that are in no way easy to remedy. So it isn't just as simple as life or not that rescue people have to look at, it is also quality of life. Plus you have to realise that if mother cat is running on empty before the kittens are born.... well I don't want to be blunt to the point of making people ill (I did the last time I described this in graphic detail) but the kittens WILL take what they need... and the toll on the mother cat's body (and mind, especially with a very immature mum)..... suffice to say it is hideous to see. Very very hideous.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cat_Crazy said:


> After this 7 days the owner has no comeback and cannot bring a lawsuit etc.


Are you sure about that? If an ordinary member of the public took in a cat and made no effort to find the owner, would that be right? How is it different with a rescue? You may be right, I am asking not telling.



> Remember we are talking about a very young, very underweight cat here.


Perhaps. My experience is that most people who are not used to small breeds think cats are seriously small or very young when actually they are not. In the absence of any actual weight, I remain to be convinced.



> How would you feel Liz if your cat was found by a rescue and then died during labour because the rescue decided not to spay it?


All my cats are microchipped so there is no way this should ever happen to me. However, that aside, if they were not chipped, I would be very grateful to the rescue for taking the cat in and looking after her.



> Also want to point out that in the eyes of the law a cat is not a possesion or property as you put it earlier and is classed as a wild animal


Are you sure about that? I had kittens stolen once and the police told the thief that the kittens had to be given back.



> I took the cat to the vets and spayed it, I don't care if it was the right thing to do, it was certainly the right thing to do for that cat and the kittens that were slowly dying whilst neglected.


No doubt it was the right thing to do for the cat. Obviously in your case the owners (unsurprisingly perhaps) didn't mind. Had you been living next door to me, I most certainly WOULD have minded (of course you wouldn't be seeing the welfare issues you described)

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> just did, and I still read the same sad & ugly thing I read first time around.


Then you need to read it again. Try taking the "anti-Liz" blinkers off first.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> did you just call my bestest friend Lizward a lizard?
> 
> that's not very nice ! :arf:


It's not the first time it has happened and I doubt if it will be the last

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Then you need to read it again. Try taking the "anti-Liz" blinkers off first.


I can read it ten times, it won't change anything Lizzybabes.

You remind me of my dear old mum Liz, she is convinced the whole world speaks English, 
and all she has to do is *SHOUT LOUDLY* , talk s l o w l y and ar-tic-u-late prop-er-ly and everyone everywhere will understand her perfectly. :thumbsup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Perhaps. My experience is that most people who are not used to small breeds think cats are seriously small or very young when actually they are not. In the absence of any actual weight, I remain to be convinced.


Liz, see that benefit of the doubt thing you were preaching a week ago for dodgy breeders... well could you not spare an ounce of that and extend that same benefit of the doubt to the OP who is a rescue worker and assume (like you told us all last week) she knows the differerence? And not assume the worst (like you preached last week to us). It's not very nice you know to assume someone, just because they are a mere rescue worker, doesn't know the difference between a small breed and a young malnourished cat. It could be construed by the pink fluffy brigade as you being not too friendly, or welcoming or helpful. Now, remember your own message Liz!! :thumbup:... assume the best in people and give them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

lizward said:


> Are you sure about that? If an ordinary member of the public took in a cat and made no effort to find the owner, would that be right? How is it different with a rescue? You may be right, I am asking not telling.
> 
> The 7 day rule applies to rescue who scan for a chip and register the details with local vets etc. If a member of the public were to register the cat with local rescue's and vets and have the cat scanned for a chip then they gain legal ownership after 14 days. Even if the original owner comes forward with proof of purchase etc. after 14 days it's tough luck. You only have to google to see hundreds of cases where owners have tried to get their cat returned and failed due to this time limit, of course most reputable rescue's will return the cat to the owner after this 7 day period but legally we don't have to.
> 
> ...


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Dear OP, please don't feel bad for doing the best thing for the girl in question (or any other for that matter).

Even in the human world a mothers health always take precedence over her unborn child in emergency life threatening situations.

If the girl is as you describe, I would class that as life threatening, sadly.

As for people threatening law suits on someone doing good like this all I have to say is ...

There are very few reasons why any breeders pregnant queen would be roaming the streets that would give me any reason to sympathise. Though gskinner put it brilliantly ... I wouldn't be thinking about unborn kittens, I'd just be grateful my girl had been found and nursed back to health. If you allow your pregnant queen to escape then IMO you are just as responsible for the decision to spay as the rescue worker. After all, had you not let her escape then she wouldn't be in that position.

*example of situations, someone breaking into your property and letting your queen out, fire on the property, someone crashing into your property and creating an escape route. There may be a few others, but I definately would not class "Oh my son/grandson/nephew opened the door while I wasn't looking", "I opened the window as it was sooo hot" or "my clever girl lifted the window lock and escaped" as reasonable excuses.

Edit: Liz ... So we know you let your entire cats roam the street in 'out of season/winter months", does this also mean you let your pregnant queens roam too? In fact no need to answer really as I think I recall you saying you do. I'd be happy to hear otherwise though. All I have to say to that I'm afraid is that if you let them roam you should expect the possible consequences.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Liz ... So we know you let your entire cats roam the street in 'out of season/winter months", does this also mean you let your pregnant queens roam too?


No it doesn't.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cat Crazy, thanks for the links. This http://www.cats.org.uk/documents/catcareleaflets-eg10-catsandthelaw/ is very good. I quote "Cats are regarded in law as the property of their owner. The theft of a cat is treated as an offence under the Act in the same way as the theft of any other property. A cat that is lost or has strayed is generally regarded as the property of the original owner. It is therefore necessary to make all reasonable endeavours to locate the original owner whenever possible."

Liz


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

I really can't be arsed reading through all the usual nonsense so will just say this...

Going back a good few years, I had 2 cats, a persian and a ragdoll, both female but only the ragdoll was neutered. I kept both indoors but shortly after the stitches were removed from the ragdoll, she managed to get out and even though I tried to get her back in, the great outdoors seemed to excite her and she ran off to the long grass. I eventually came back inside to try and coax her with some food but while my back was turned she disappeared... as it turned out, to a neighbours house only a few doors up. Another neighbour told me which house she was in but when I asked they denied any knowledge of her. I advertised her as missing in the local newspaper and in all the local shops but still she wasn't returned. Then one day I spotted her on the windowsill of this neighbour and knocked again, no answer so I posted a note through the door. Next day my cat was at my back door crying to come in  She was gone for almost 3 months !!!! My own neighbours had taken her in knowing that she had only recently had an operation, they took her collar off and put their own on her and even had the nerve to lie to my face when I'd asked about her 

If I hadn't been at home when she was crying at my back door, she might have ended up going off somewhere on her own. 

Someone, somewhere could be really missing this cat that you've found and pregnant or not, you have a duty to find her owners  As someone who's lost a cat in the past, I would be fuming if she had been operated on whilst lost.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

shazalhasa said:


> My own neighbours had taken her in knowing that she had only recently had an operation, they took her collar off and put their own on her and even had the nerve to lie to my face when I'd asked about her
> 
> Someone, somewhere could be really missing this cat that you've found and pregnant or not, you have a duty to find her owners  As someone who's lost a cat in the past, I would be fuming if she had been operated on whilst lost.


I think there is *world* of difference between

a neighbour who deliberately steals someones cat and deliberately hides it from them and lies about it

and

a stray cat dumped at (or turned up) at feral colonys feeding station.

I think everyone would be well pee-d off if a neighbour stole their cat and treated it as their own.

I think most people would be delighted if their young cat strayed and got lost, became malnourished and pregnant and was rescued by someone like the OP.

These two scenarios are so far removed from each other they cant fairly be compared.

How would you have felt if your cat had strayed, got completely lost, hadnt been taken in by anyone or cared for by anyone and turned up at a feral colonys feeding station pregnant? Pregnant, immature and undernourished and in no good state to give birth. And there were no foster homes or shelters willing to take on a pregnant mum & litter for +-16 weeks. Would you rather someone like the OP stepped in to help your lost young cat, or would you prefer the cat was just left on the streets to give birth and survive on its own?


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

shazalhasa said:


> I really can't be arsed reading through all the usual nonsense so will just say this...
> 
> Going back a good few years, I had 2 cats, a persian and a ragdoll, both female but only the ragdoll was neutered. I kept both indoors but shortly after the stitches were removed from the ragdoll, she managed to get out and even though I tried to get her back in, the great outdoors seemed to excite her and she ran off to the long grass. I eventually came back inside to try and coax her with some food but while my back was turned she disappeared... as it turned out, to a neighbours house only a few doors up. Another neighbour told me which house she was in but when I asked they denied any knowledge of her. I advertised her as missing in the local newspaper and in all the local shops but still she wasn't returned. Then one day I spotted her on the windowsill of this neighbour and knocked again, no answer so I posted a note through the door. Next day my cat was at my back door crying to come in  She was gone for almost 3 months !!!! My own neighbours had taken her in knowing that she had only recently had an operation, they took her collar off and put their own on her and even had the nerve to lie to my face when I'd asked about her
> 
> ...





Tje said:


> I think there is *world* of difference between
> 
> a neighbour who deliberately steals someones cat and deliberately hides it from them and lies about it
> 
> ...


Thank you for the selective quoting of my post  I've included the part that is of relevance and highlighted it for you to see why I posted it.

My cat could have easily have strayed off somewhere on her own had I not been at home when she was crying outside. I would rather if someone had found her, that they tried to find out who her owners were instead of jumping to conclusions that she'd been thrown out and taking it upon themselves to have her operated on without my consent.

Without finding the owners, there is no way of knowing what the circumstances are or even how old the cat is, not all are the same size after all. So it is unfair and wrong to jump to a conclusion just because it suits a seemingly strong desire to have every animal speyed or neutered


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

But hun, do you not see that if you own entire queens/studs it's your responsibility to keep them under lock and key. If they get out because you haven't done this then you have to accept she/he may be neutered if caught? Or are you saying you disagree with the TNR scheme?

If you don't want that to happen then neuter them yourself, or be more vigilant about the possibility of them escaping.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> But hun, do you not see that if you own entire queens/studs it's your responsibility to keep them under lock and key. If they get out because you haven't done this then you have to accept she/he may be neutered if caught? Or are you saying you disagree with the TNR scheme?
> 
> If you don't want that to happen then neuter them yourself, or be more vigilant about the possibility of them escaping.


Right, I have no idea what TNR is so cannot say if I agree with it or not but if it's something to do with what the OP does as in getting the feral cats speyed then yes I totally agree with it but this isn't a feral cat being discussed, it's a 'stray' or possibly a lost pet which is why I think that everything should be done to find the owner.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

shazalhasa said:


> Right, I have no idea what TNR is so cannot say if I agree with it or not but if it's something to do with what the OP does as in getting the feral cats speyed then yes I totally agree with it but this isn't a feral cat being discussed, it's a 'stray' or possibly a lost pet which is why I think that everything should be done to find the owner.


TNR = Trap Neuter Release

I know what you're saying about them being ferals, however I would say most cats classed as ferals are probably lovable moggies that have adapted to living wild after being lost, abandoned or wandering off and not knowing how to get back home. So it's not impossible for a Persian, BSH >insert all other ped breeds< to end up this way either.

That's really besides the point anyway. As the cat in question here is in a very poor state, and her health ... any cats health should come before that of any kittens she may have inside her. If this was ever your girl I'm sure you'd want the same for her. Waiting 2 weeks while extra efforts were made to find you could be the difference in saving her life or her giving birth and dying, along with her kittens. I know which one I would choose, and would hope someone would choose for me should it ever happen to me ... though I can tell you now, it would be something disatorous happening for any of my girls to get out. I am most likely OTT about making sure they can't get out.

I'd imagine there are very few true feral cats about.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

shazalhasa said:


> Thank you for the selective quoting of my post  I've included the part that is of relevance and highlighted it for you to see why I posted it.


Sorry for selective quoting  I do this to save having to scroll through miles of things I have already read to get to the bit I havent read. Some people prefer "selective quoting", some people prefer to quote whole posts.  I always do the former 

Anyway, where were we

_ok say your cat wanders off and gets completely lost, ends up at a feeding station for feral strays. She is young and malnourished and pregnant. The OP finds your cat and places and ad with photo on the rescues website in an attempt to trace the owner. No owner comes forward. Flyers on lampposts and supermarkets in the area she was found also bring no joy. Which is why I asked the question  there were no foster homes or shelters willing to take on a pregnant mum & litter for +-16 weeks. Would you rather someone like the OP stepped in to help your lost young cat, or would you prefer the cat was just left on the streets to give birth and survive on its own?_

I gather you would probably rather that the rescue org (or the OP in this case) went to greater lengths to find you, but as has already been stated on this thread, legally the onus is on the owner to find the rescue orgs and not the other way around. Cats can and do wander 30,40,50 miles (sometimes 100s of miles) from their homes. There is no way for rescue orgs to cover these vast areas. And they dont have the resources (financial or human resources) to do much more than they already do to reunite pets with owners. It always falls to the owner to do the legwork. Rescue orgs are generally kept very busy with doing the hands on rescue work. Plus you cannot forget that with this cat the OP posted about  a decision has to be made sooner rather than later for the cats own health benefit. I dont think the OP is considering neutering this cat to suit a seemingly strong desire to have every animal speyed or neutered she is considering it because it is in the cats best interests.

What you said about not even being able to age cats. vets (and experienced owners/breeders) can age cats fairly accurately.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

I do agree that the onus should be on the owner to find their cat, not on rescues to find the owner. Goodness - as if rescues aren't stretched enough - why should they spend all their resources on tracking down careless owners? Obviously reasonable effort can be made - ie checking for a microchip, but beyond that it is up to the owners. Besides, if you've lost a pet - the first place you should notify is vets/rescues/pounds etc - surely!?!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I have no cats now. When active in local rescue had 6 at one point. During my life I have had 2 female cats, both spayed at 5 and a half months of age. Never had a litter. Kept in to ensure this.

If either had escaped from the home and been found pregnant, early stages of pregnancy or not and been neutered by local rescue or individual, if returned to me, I would have kissed the ground that person walked on for doing the right thing. Reimbursed any vet fees and been forever grateful for my cats safe return.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Goodness. Quite a debate we have here 
Anyway, an update. She has been spayed. The vet said she has almost no body fat. In my experience, kittens born to a cat in this state rarely thrive and often have medical issues. The vet agreed that in this case, she should be spayed.

The cat was neither collared nor microchipped and had obviously been going hungry for quite some time.
No, I did not try to find the owner due to the condition of the cat. Any owner that can allow a young unspayed pfemale onto the streets without microchipping or putting on a collar at least, should not be permitted to keep cats in the first place. It is not so difficult to keep a cat indoors until after spaying. It just takes some modicum of vigilance and responsibility.

I paid for her spaying, shots and deworming out of my own pocket.

The feral feeding station is behind a hypermarket storage facility. Where would I start to find the owner, I wonder? Where would I advertise? Why should I spend my own money better spent elsewhere for advertising in newspapers? This time of year, cats are often dumped in these places by owners who are too stingy to pay for holiday boarding fees and so dump their animals where they assume the feral feeders will feed them. 
I think I made the right decision after all. She has been taken into foster care, being fed and cared for by loving people. As soon as she has regained some weight, we will advertise through our network for a new good home. I am sure she will find a great home as she is a gorgeous little thing with an enormous personality.
I feel no guilt whatsoever and would do it again.


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

Hopefully this will be of some help to you should something of a similar nature happen again

View Lost Pet Details on Animal Search UK


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

I've just read this debate with much interest for several reasons, but something has really struck a chord with me.

Irresponsible dog owners are strung up should their dog escape when on heat and produce an unwanted litter. Why should cat owners be any different?

I've had one cat when we were little, but she was spaed when old enough as mum and dad didn't want kittens. 

I'm not being funny but if your cat esapes without a chip, without a collar and is picked up and spaed after all attempts to contact you have failed, than I'd say the same as I would to anyone with a dog. No one to blame but yourself.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

koekemakranka said:


> Goodness. Quite a debate we have here
> Anyway, an update. She has been spayed. The vet said she has almost no body fat. In my experience, kittens born to a cat in this state rarely thrive and often have medical issues. The vet agreed that in this case, she should be spayed.
> 
> The cat was neither collared nor microchipped and had obviously been going hungry for quite some time.
> ...


im certain you made the right decision what a pity there arnt more people like you out there who care enough to help animals in desperate need...you are what i call a true cat lover...well done!:thumbup:


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Shazhalasa, thank you. I don't live in the UK, but I checked similar local lost and found sites, but to no avail. I wasn't surpised , most people wouldn't bother to search for their missing cat. Unfortunately, in my country, there is not the same concern for animal welfare as there is in the UK and US. 
In fact, I know of someone who regularly "throws away" the puppies he gets for his son as soon as they are no longer cute and gets a new one. By "throw away", I mean he dumps them next to the road. I kid you not. He doesn't seem to understand what kind of values he is showing to his child regarding, i.e. that animals are nisposable like Kleenex. He just doesn't get it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

So glad to hear of a very nice outcome for this poor little cat. You have my utmost respect.

Excellent web site, Shazalhasa, I've not seen that before. You'd imagine that anyone who was desperately searching for a lost cat and had gone to the trouble of posting on such a site would have also, most definitely, put up 'lost' posters and informed veterinary practices, rescue organisations, etc, in a wide surrounding area. I suppose its not beyond the realms of possibility that they'd been silly enough not to though.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> I've just read this debate with much interest for several reasons, but something has really struck a chord with me.
> 
> Irresponsible dog owners are strung up should their dog escape when on heat and produce an unwanted litter. Why should cat owners be any different?
> 
> .


well in my eyes they are no different!... irresponsible cat owners are equally as bad as irresponsible dog owners, and im pretty sure plenty more feel just the same way i do


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> well in my eyes they are no different!... irresponsible cat owners are equally as bad as irresponsible dog owners, and im pretty sure plenty more feel just the same way i do


I feel the same about all animals to be quite frank. Animals are animals, not something people should treat as commodities.

They should be treated with the respect that they deserve.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> I feel the same about all animals to be quite frank. Animals are animals, not something people should treat as commodities.
> 
> They should be treated with the respect that they deserve.


i couldnt agree more


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## shazalhasa (Jul 21, 2009)

koekemakranka said:


> Shazhalasa, thank you. I don't live in the UK, but I checked similar local lost and found sites, but to no avail. I wasn't surpised , most people wouldn't bother to search for their missing cat. Unfortunately, in my country, there is not the same concern for animal welfare as there is in the UK and US.
> In fact, I know of someone who regularly "throws away" the puppies he gets for his son as soon as they are no longer cute and gets a new one. By "throw away", I mean he dumps them next to the road. I kid you not. He doesn't seem to understand what kind of values he is showing to his child regarding, i.e. that animals are nisposable like Kleenex. He just doesn't get it.


I can understand how you feel to a degree as yes, there are a lot of people who treat their animals badly and have no regard to their welfare and safety. It really saddens me to hear of such stories, there have been a few that have really made my blood boil.

The reason that I posted is that I can see it from the other persons point of view, the caring person who wouldn't want any harm to come to their much loved pet. When my own cat slipped out, she hadn't long been speyed, the bald patch was still very visible, she was microchipped and had a collar with identity tag on. I was very fortunate to get my cat back but I know of a few that haven't been so fortunate and as I said, if I hadn't been at home when she was crying at my back door, then my own story might have been a whole lot different. Would it still be fair to lump me in with others that are irresponsible and couldn't care less :confused1:

BTW, what you do for those feral cats is brilliant :thumbup:


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I would spay the cat.. I am thinking.. (I haven't read the whole thread) That this cat is possibly not feral and she will be able to be re homed... So i reckon its the best course of action for her..


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I'd have her spayed too. Regardless of age, if she was skin and bone, that's not a healthy state to give birth in, so well done OP!!!


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

shazalhasa said:


> Would it still be fair to lump me in with others that are irresponsible and couldn't care less :confused1:
> 
> :


No, because if the cat I had found had been spayed, microchipped and collared, as yours was, I would have gone out of my way to find the owner. Escapes do happen, even with the greatest care, I know, but there is a difference between an obviously well-cared-for cat and a starving, unchipped, uncollared and unspayed cat.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

koekemakranka said:


> No, because if the cat I had found had been spayed, microchipped and collared, as yours was, I would have gone out of my way to find the owner. Escapes do happen, even with the greatest care, I know, but there is a difference between an obviously well-cared-for cat and a starving, unchipped, uncollared and unspayed cat.


And there are also people who boast openly on the internet about dumping cats many miles from their home. Such cats may be desperately searched for. You cannot assume that any starving cat was deliberately abandoned. You are obviously in a country where that is more likely to be the case than in the UK, fair enough, but still it is not an absolute given. The moral of course is that everyone should microchip their cats, but we know there are people who simply do not want to do this because of fears about cancerous growths at the microchip site.

Liz


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

I would be eternally grateful to someone who took my missing cat in and cared for her to the point to have her spayed if she was in such a way!

I would have the cat spayed, homeless cats are not in a good position to raise a litter and the kittens and mum would only suffer for it


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> And there are also people who boast openly on the internet about dumping cats many miles from their home. Such cats may be desperately searched for. You cannot assume that any starving cat was deliberately abandoned. You are obviously in a country where that is more likely to be the case than in the UK, fair enough, but still it is not an absolute given. The moral of course is that everyone should microchip their cats, but we know there are people who simply do not want to do this because of fears about cancerous growths at the microchip site.
> 
> Liz


 whatever the reasons a cat is straying and whatever the country, if a cat is in such a state as the one op saved then the only humane path to take is to spay her... and i dont know how anyone could possibly think otherwise.... if someone did this for 'my dumped' cat i would be eternally greatful.

OP you are an Angel imo xxx


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> whatever the reasons a cat is straying and whatever the country, if a cat is in such a state as the one op saved then the only humane path to take is to spay her... and i dont know how anyone could possibly think otherwise.... if someone did this for 'my dumped' cat i would be eternally greatful.


Well personally, I'd feed her up. But I think we might all be best to pull out of this thread now before it turns nasty.

Liz


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well personally, I'd feed her up. But I think we might all be best to pull out of this thread now before it turns nasty.
> 
> Liz


well i'd go on the vets advice and common sense.... right now im off aswell if its gunna turn nasty lol


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## MatildaG (Nov 8, 2010)

I'd just like to add my support to the OP amongst all the rest that have posted.

You have done a fab job and in my opinion did absolutely the right thing for that cat. If you hadn't bothered going out of your way and spending your own money, who knows what state she'd be in now.

I personally would just ignore those who are coming up with wildly complicated and unlikely stories as to how a cat could end up in that state and still have a responsibile owner. At the end of the day you have saved her and that's what matters.

If she does have an owner that is 200 miles away, worrying about their precious cat who slipped out of its collar as it was being stolen by armed robbers, the day before it was spayed and microchipped, then I'm sure they would shake your hand


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well personally, I'd feed her up.
> Liz


what you'd take the mother cat in?
you'd pay for her initial vet check?
you'd bring her home after that vet check and fatten her up for delivery?
you'd cover any costs for anything that went wrong with the birth?
you'd keep the mother and kittens for 12 weeks post birth?
and cover all the costs involved with that? 
you'd then rehome the kittens (chipped, vacced, vet checked, wormed and flead and 12 weeks worth of any vet appointmens they may need) 
you'd find homes for all the kitten?
you'd do the home checking for the kittens?
and you'd get mum neutered, back to health and find a home for her a home too?

sounds great Liz.... 

but why then aren't you rescuing, doing it instead of just saying it?

There are MANY cats in the UK that fit the exact description of the cat Koeke found, so there's no reason you can't do it.

It's sooo easy to say in resuce what we would do in a given situation... dead different though when we are actually in the position of parting with a 1000 quid of our money and 3 months of our time and energy.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> im certain you made the right decision what a pity there arnt more people like you out there who care enough to help animals in desperate need...you are what i call a true cat lover...well done!:thumbup:


and I second that wholeheartedly!!

if I had a hat, I'd take it off to you Koeke!! :thumbsup:

there ain't many folk like you ... those who walk the walk and don't just talk the talk!


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## rachael (Jul 30, 2008)

delete please


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

rachael said:


> I worked at a cat shelter and this is something that we'd see often. I'm pro-choice, but this decision is harder to for a person to make for a cat than for a person to make for themselves. You have to remember that if it were up to the cat, instinctively they want their babies, so it's a very tough decision to take this away from them. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I could only assume that this could lead to depression in later pregnancies.


_What?_

1. Instinctively, stressed (not just emotionally but physically too) cats have been known to abandon or kill their kittens when they sense that they are not in a good position to raise them. Whether you like it or not, infanticide has been documented in almost every species when the mother senses that the risks to her life are dramatically increased by the presence of young. Mothers do not instinctively want every baby they have. This is a human sensibility, and a relatively modern luxury, at that.

2. What shelter is this that is aborting litters of kittens without spaying the mother as standard operating procedure, and more importantly, how are they doing it? It doesn't make any sense to me. They'd be planning to spay the mother anyway if they were shelter cats, wouldn't they? How odd. And depression in later pregnancies???? :confused1::confused1:

I've obviously misunderstood something in your post, Rachael, and I'd be very grateful if you wouldn't mind clearing it up.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Tje said:


> sounds great Liz....
> 
> but why then aren't you rescuing, doing it instead of just saying it?


Actually I have done this three times.

Liz


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> Actually I have done this three times.
> 
> Liz


So? I have fostered a good few dogs in years gone by, it's not something I do curently or regularly. For that reason I wouldn't dream of going to the dog breeding forum and telling the dog rescue folks that while they are doing a good job to the best of their abilities, that they should be doing it better.

No, that would be hypocritical, because if I was that interested in dog welfare then I would be doing it myself : not telling others who are doing the best they can, how to do it better.

Yet you feel perfectly justified to tell this rescue lady how you would have gone about it better with this cat, so my question still stands Liz, why don't you go to one of your local rescues tomorrow, see which pregnant queen is sceduled for an spay/abortion, and take her home and take all the work and financial commitement on to your shoulders for her and her kittens.  :thumbup:

I bet you don't though, cause it's oh so easy for all of to tell rescue workers how they should do things and criticise them for not doing things well enough... but not so easy to cough up the actual money and effort needed to do it yourself.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> I've obviously misunderstood something in your post, Rachael, and I'd be very grateful if you wouldn't mind clearing it up.


same here  ... could you clarify Rachael???


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## rachael (Jul 30, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> _What?_
> 
> 1. Instinctively, stressed (not just emotionally but physically too) cats have been known to abandon or kill their kittens when they sense that they are not in a good position to raise them. Whether you like it or not, infanticide has been documented in almost every species when the mother senses that the risks to her life are dramatically increased by the presence of young. Mothers do not instinctively want every baby they have. This is a human sensibility, and a relatively modern luxury, at that.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry guys! Forgive me, I went on the forums first thing when I woke up yesterday and I guess I wasn't clear and I was also a little mixed up.

1. Atlantys, you are right-- I completely forgot about that. One of the kittens from one of the litters I fostered had lost weight at about 3 days of age and was crying one night and Molly picked it up and shoved it aside and payed attention to the rest of the babies. Vets were closed as it was a holiday so I tried to bottle feed the poor guy but he refused and I didn't want to force it. The next morning he died and I couldn't help but feel angry at Molly for not trying harder, but I know Molly was just following her instincts by only nursing the kittens who she thought would make it.

2. I'm sorry I don't know how I mixed things up here.. When I said "I've seen this a lot" I mean I've heard about it a lot at the shelter that they spay cats in early pregnancies. I'm not sure if they do it in late pregnancies also. I would assume only if the mom is unhealthy, because otherwise they just have people foster them and watch over as mom raises the babies until they are all old enough for vaccines and fixing.

The end of my post where I said depression for a later pregnancy.. I based that off of an experience I had at the shelter where one mom was sick and so her nursing babies got sick and they all died despite the vets efforts. After that the mom seemed very depressed. I just assumed after something like that a mother cat would be depressed. I don't think it was an awful assumption, but sorry I should have based it more on just something I saw one time. Also, that situation is different from a mom intentionally abandoning some kittens, because this mom was trying for all of her kittens.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Koeke - I haven't read all the posts but getting back to your original question 'am I wrong' - I don't know but I made the same decision as you. Our cat turned up in a bad state and the vet thought she was pregnant. We did try to locate the owners but in the end took the decision to get her spayed because she was small and unwell. As it happened she was not pregnant (the original scan had been inconclusive) and it was just a huge worm-ball. I found it distressing to make the choice to have a pregnant cat spayed but did what I thought was best for her at the time. You were not rash or uncaring - quite the opposite. x


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Kiwi said:


> As it happened she was not pregnant (the original scan had been inconclusive) and it was just a huge worm-ball.


O gosh, I wish I hadn't read that, I feel rather queasy now 

Liz


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## thedeans (Apr 8, 2009)

I think each case should be decided separately - one shoe does not fit all
When 10 yr old wispa came to me from a rescue centre HE was a tiny malnourished kitten who after a couple of weeks went out to play
He soon became very fat - so he went to the vets - fearing a tumour or similar
HE became a pregnant SHE 
My vet put it bluntly - she is too small and weak to give birth to these kittens she will most certainly die afterwards- and so will the kittens as the success rate at hand rearing sickly kittens is slim - thats assuming they don't get stuck - in which case they will all die then

If you spay her NOW she has a chance - although it is risky
There was NO question in my mind - I didn't need to think twice - I was being given the chance to SAVE a life --- HERS
She was very poorly afterwards as she was so weak before hand but 10yrs on and she's still here - I do not regret my decision - I just wish I didn't have to experience it at all
Everyone has a right to their own beliefs - however no-one has the right to jugde others because of their beliefs - best to agree to disagree


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

thedeans said:


> Everyone has a right to their own beliefs - however no-one has the right to jugde others because of their beliefs - best to agree to disagree


I agree, especially as this post was about a cat rescue worker finding this pregnant cat. It wasn't even her own cat, it was a stray. Even if some higher power could guarantee the mother cat and kittens would be ok if the pregnancy had been left to progress (and no one can ever give that guarantee, most vets universally agree pregnancy in young malnourished cats is very dangeorus) ... some people on this thread are completely forgetting who is going to pay for, and look after the mother cat and kittens for over 3 months. This costs an awful lot of money and a lot of time and energy. It's all fine and well for other to tell the OP "well in your position I would fatten her up and let her pregnancy continue", but *I don't see those people dipping in to their pockets* and offering to send the OP a thousand quid towards what this wisful thinking could/would easily cost.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Tje said:


> some people on this thread are completely forgetting who is going to pay for, and look after the mother cat and kittens for over 3 months. This costs an awful lot of money and a lot of time and energy. It's all fine and well for other to tell the OP "well in your position I would fatten her up and let her pregnancy continue", but *I don't see those people dipping in to their pockets* and offering to send the OP a thousand quid towards what this wisful thinking could/would easily cost.


A good general point. Raising kittens is not cheap, it takes time and effort to socialise the kittens and mum too if, which can sometimes be the case when a rescue, if she is timid/nervous.

Thankfully when I used to foster pregnant cats, I was involved with rescue and I didn't have to pay for food, litter, vet care etc myself (did have to help raise funds to do so though  )

Another thing to remember that finding really good PERMANENT homes is not easy. You would also still need to spay mum before trying to find a home for her, or of course if you choose to keep yourself.

Indeed, not everyone, however well intentioned is able to do this with no help.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Thank you for your support. She is doing well and gaining weight steadily. Usually the cat rescuse organisation does pay for the spaying. However, there are only enough funds to spay a limited amount of cats per annum. As it is the end of the year, there are no funds left, which is why I offered to pay out of my own pocket. Now just to find her a good forever home. Here she is:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> A good general point. Raising kittens is not cheap, it takes time and effort to socialise the kittens and mum too if, which can sometimes be the case when a rescue, if she is timid/nervous.
> 
> Thankfully when I used to foster pregnant cats, I was involved with rescue and I didn't have to pay for food, litter, vet care etc myself (did have to help raise funds to do so though  )
> 
> ...


Amethyst, I am living currently in Holland and things here are pretty good for cats. Plenty of shelters that are pretty well funded (though even here were a lot more strapped for cash than say 4 years ago) so I too get everything paid for my fosters except the luxuries like fancy wet foods, toys, large fancy birthing pens and the like. All the necessary costs ARE covered for me (thank gawd!).

I have however lived in a few countries in Asia where there was no such thing as a shelter or a cat charity. And I met the costs of my rescue cats myself (although I did get cost prices form vets as they knew it was rescue cats they were treating and not my own pet cats). And even though in those countries vets charges etc are a lot cheaper than we are all used to here in Europe still to take a pregnant cat like this on is a MASSIVE financial commitment wherever you are, as where vets bills are cheaper, wages are usually lower too. If this cat needs a c-section at 3am it would be the OP footing the bill and we all know how expensive that can be.

I had a lot of this type of friendly advice when I lived in the middle east in a country with a lot of British expats. They would condemn me out of hand for neutering a pregnant stray but as soon as I said you know what, youre right, it is cruel and unnecessary. Give me a thousand quid and she can have her kittens at my place, I will do all the work and you get to foot all the bills well, suffice to say you didnt see them for dust.

It was also the same with getting cats put to sleep I used to work together with an Australian woman and we kind of tried to man a few feeding stations for strays. When the summer set in (bearing in mind in the desert it can reach 50 degrees and cats have no means of finding any water at all) we used to round up the weakest of the strays and bring them to the municipal vet where they would be PTS for free. Some well-meaning idiot would always remark heyyy all that cat needs is feeding up and it would be fine but when I pointed out my house was full and I couldnt take in anymore strays, but I would trap the cat and bring it to their house suffice to say  they talk the talk but dont walk the walk.

And that is exactly what was happening in this post!! Giving it the old "well if it was me I would fatten her up". Big talk backed up by zero action! That's so easy to do when we're not paying the bills and doing the actual hands on work.


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Tje said:


> Giving it the old "well if it was me I would fatten her up". Big talk backed up by zero action! That's so easy to do when we're not paying the bills and doing the actual hands on work.


I totally agree. I was happy to be adopted by our cat as I didn't have any other pets and could afford her. But when I couldn't locate the owner, I initially called several local cat rescue centres and was told bluntly that they were full and couldn't take in any more cats. I'm not sure what would have happened if we hadn't taken her in and sorted her out and am appalled by the apparent scale of the problem. Hats off to you Koeke, Tje, and others like you for trying to make a difference.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Tje said:


> It was also the same with getting cats put to sleep I used to work together with an Australian woman and we kind of tried to man a few feeding stations for strays. When the summer set in (bearing in mind in the desert it can reach 50 degrees and cats have no means of finding any water at all) we used to round up the weakest of the strays and bring them to the municipal vet where they would be PTS for free. .


PTS is also a terribly emotive subject, and something one has to consider regularly if working with rescue or feral cats. I always try to focus on the alternative. Imagine the horror of letting a cat die of heat or thirst? If you think of it, this is the price that humankind must pay for allowing unchecked breeding in the first place. A terrible decision to make, yet you made it for the sake of the cats. Bravo!


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> Thank you for your support. She is doing well and gaining weight steadily. Usually the cat rescuse organisation does pay for the spaying. However, there are only enough funds to spay a limited amount of cats per annum. As it is the end of the year, there are no funds left, which is why I offered to pay out of my own pocket. Now just to find her a good forever home. Here she is:


What a pretty girl, good luck in finding her a special home!

Yes, I understand rescue funds are limited, so lucky she found her way to you, you are a good person *hugs*


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> PTS is also a terribly emotive subject, and something one has to consider regularly if working with rescue or feral cats. I always try to focus on the alternative. Imagine the horror of letting a cat die of heat or thirst? If you think of it, this is the price that humankind must pay for allowing unchecked breeding in the first place. A terrible decision to make, yet you made it for the sake of the cats. Bravo!


I make that decision (we all do) for the sake of the cats. Like you made the neuter while pregnant decision for your stray cat as it was in her best interests, We would only take the very weak or the very old or the very ill to be PTS ... those we knew would not make it through the harsh desert summers... and while I had no problems doing that, it did drive me mental and make me very angry, that some of my country folk would condemn me as some kind of doctor death. Yet the same folks did zero for the stray cats. And I don't mean everyone should help strays or can help strays... it just always struck me that I had some friends and colleagues that while they couldn't rescue cats, would often buy me a bag of food or a box of whiskas or buy me some cheap fleeces or towels (for the cats) from Ikea. These people never condemend me and my Aussie mate for getting sick & weak cats PTS, and they were a source of help and financial support to me, enabling me to help more strays. Yet the ones who condemend me the hardest and loudest, they would never give as much as 5 quid towards the upkeep of strays. Hence why I say they can talk the talk but not walk the walk.

Kiwi... you too thanks... like I say... support IS everthing. Financial and moral support are the only thing that keeps rescue workers going. And perosnally I can deal with low funds better than I can deal with getting slagged off by well meaning but ultimately clueless idiots, telling me how they could do things better. :


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## Cat Lover Chris (Jan 11, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> I couldn't have put this better myself :thumbup:
> 
> There are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many cats being bred (one way or another) and the top and bottom of it is that there are NOT enough PERMANENT homes
> 
> :001_wub:


Two comments here:

where about in the world are you living? I live on an urbanisation in Southern Spain and we have a feral cat colony close to our flat. It has gradually been expanding as a result of additional female kittens being born, as well as their mothers still getting pregnant and, I suspect, immoral owners dumping unwanted cats ! Whilst the kittens are all very cute etc to see, the problem is not solved with the neuturing of these cats, which will not happen as Cat Rescue centres in Spain are few and far between.

The second is a little more controversial, but I am not shy in saying how I see things:

As stated above, as there are too many cats being bred in the UK and insufficient homes, thus breeders are guilty of contributing to this problem as much as Joe Public who breeds Moggies to sell !!
If everyone didn't breed their queens for a year or two, think of the effect this would have on the expanding cat population ?!?

Breeders may not want to read this, but we all have to act responsibly.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Cat Lover Chris said:


> Two comments here:
> 
> where about in the world are you living? I live on an urbanisation in Southern Spain and we have a feral cat colony close to our flat. It has gradually been expanding as a result of additional female kittens being born, as well as their mothers still getting pregnant and, I suspect, immoral owners dumping unwanted cats ! Whilst the kittens are all very cute etc to see, the problem is not solved with the neuturing of these cats, which will not happen as Cat Rescue centres in Spain are few and far between.
> 
> ...


Agree - this is where I struggle tbo and get very confused on here - in both the cat and dog breeding section - now I have no clue about breeding and the ins and outs of it but I have seen time and time again where pedigree breeders get really irritated with others that breed and say that in this time and climate they shouldnt but then it is ok for them because they are carrying on the line etc?? : surely though they are just as much adding to a problem of over population right now as anyone else is:


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Can only speak for myself; not other breeders obviously. A short while after starting breeding/showing cats I developed a nagging doubt in my mind that my hobby may be adding, unnecessarily, to the problem of too many cats and not enough homes in the UK. That nagging doubt, I must be honest, has never totally left me. 

Rightly or wrongly (and I mean that sincerely, not just as a 'get out' clause) I've justified continuing my hobby for a few different reasons. Whether we all agree or not, the fact is there has always been a demand for pure-bred pedigree pets, whether dogs or cats - some people simply do not want a crossbreed or a moggy and, in my humble opinion, that is their choice. Some, dare I say anti-pedigree breeder, people cannot understand this and will do their utmost to persuade people to give a home to an unwanted 'moggie' instead. And you know what? That's absolutely fine by me.

As a (kind of) separate issue... I've bred pedigree cats for many years. During that time I've taken back into my care four cats that, for differing reasons, the owners could no longer keep and I have assisted in re-homing another four or five (bred by me) where the cat has not come back to me in between homes, which have gone to either a family member, a friend, friend of a friend or people who had simply contacted me to ask about giving a home to an adult pedigree BSH - all the homes were carefully vetted.

Can I honestly say that I have kept in touch with every single person I've ever sold a kitten to in 27 years and that a few of the cats I've bred haven't 'slipped through the net'? No. But I can tell you I have kept in touch with an awful lot of them throughout the cats' lives and many are on their second cat from me, having lost the first to old age... and incidentally, a fair few people want to take on two kittens at the same time and unless they're completely stuck on having two littermates or two pedigrees, I've always suggested they contact local rescue shelters re a kitten or young cat to keep their pedigree mog company.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Well, in my opinion, as delightful as moggies can be (I have two rescue moggies), I can understand that some people would want to have pedigree cats, and not necessarily because of wanting a "status" symbol. With a reputable breeder, with all the health testing done, you can be reasonably sure of having a healthy cat. 

I don't know the health history of my own cats. The eldest cat has quite a number of health issues and I suspect, as he gets older, they will get worse or more will arise. The vet costs are the least of it because we are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to ensure the best care. However, there is always the worry and possible future heartbreak to consider. :frown: That said, I wouldn't exchange my two for anything in the world. I don't see the pedigree breeders contributing to cat overpopulation. You can be reasonably sure that pedigree cats stand a better chance of being rehomed if things go wrong and the owners can't keep them any longer. It's the tuxedos, blacks, grey-whites and tabbies that are left behind at the rescue shelters.
Most good pedigree breeders that I am aware of, almost never have kittens available upon casual enquiry and their waiting lists are months and months and even years long.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Cat Lover Chris said:


> where about in the world are you living? I live on an urbanisation in Southern Spain and we have a feral cat colony close to our flat.
> 
> as there are too many cats being bred in the UK and insufficient homes, thus breeders are guilty of contributing to this problem as much as Joe Public who breeds Moggies to sell !!
> 
> ...


Just say for the sake of this discussion that pedigree cat breeders (the responsible ones) didnt breed a single kitten for two years.

The demand for kittens wouldnt change, all you would get are backyardbreeder stepping up their production lines to fill the breach, so they would just churn out more (very poorly bred) kittens. BYBs would never do the responsible thing, they would be all too delighted that they had less competition.

Plus, you get all the very many opps litters, people who let their unneutered female outdoors and it gets pregnant. These are accidental litters  but more often than not the pregnant female is turfed out on the streets to fend for herself when the owners discover she is pregnant. These people dont even consider themselves breeders but they account for a HUGE percentage of kittens born annually.

Simply for some people that is what they do a new kitten every year. No expenses with neutering, you keep the cute factor going by buying in the autumn and turfing out in the spring or summer.

I kinda see where you are coming from but I think it would ultimately make things for cats a hell of a lot worse than they are now. Because only the responsible would stop breeding, while the irresponsible would see the  £ $ signs rolling before their eyes and have a field day.

So as much as I kinda see where youre coming from, it is one of those wishful thinking things.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Whether we all agree or not, the fact is there has always been a demand for pure-bred pedigree pets, whether dogs or cats - some people simply do not want a crossbreed or a moggy and, in my humble opinion, that is their choice. Some, dare I say anti-pedigree breeder, people cannot understand this and will do their utmost to persuade people to give a home to an unwanted 'moggie' instead. And you know what? That's absolutely fine by me.


Also there are people like me who are not so bothered on the breed of cat/kitten they buy, but are *very* bothered that its an ethically bred kitten. To me the breed is  well I cant even say its second I would be as delighted with a main coon, or ragdoll or Siamese or whatever as I am with my BSHs. But it is paramount to me that not only is my kitten raised properly, but her mum and did live properly (and ethically) too. I am not saying no moggies are ever ethically bred, I just havent ever came across one moggie female who was bred to the standards I demand. If moggie breeders jumped through all the hoops that good responsible ethical breeders jumped through (in terms of health testing, vaccinating kittens, keeping kittens for 13 weeks, taking the tested queen to a tested stud and so on), I would happily buy a moggie.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

An update. The best news...... I found Nina a wonderful forever home, quite by accident, with someone who lost her beloved cat of 15 years a few months ago. Her home is very cat-friendly and she will be a singleton cat, which is perfect because Nina does NOT like other cats (although she is OK with dogs :confused1 I am delivering her to her new home tonight. Finally, a happy ending.:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

koekemakranka said:


> An update. The best news...... I found Nina a wonderful forever home, quite by accident, with someone who lost her beloved cat of 15 years a few months ago. Her home is very cat-friendly and she will be a singleton cat, which is perfect because Nina does NOT like other cats (although she is OK with dogs :confused1 I am delivering her to her new home tonight. Finally, a happy ending.:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


brilliant news!!! For you and for Nina (and of course for her new tin openers).

Koeke, again, on behalf of Nina, thank you for evrything you have done for this cat :thumbsup:


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## Kiwi (Nov 18, 2010)

Hurrah! :thumbup: fantastic news! Well done you


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