# Re: Sarplaninac and other giant breeds



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Hello and how is everyone?

The following statement and others very similar in content to the one example illustrated below have become a great concern to both my wife and myself for the following reason;

We are owners of Sarplaninacs/Ovcharka and we feel that the reputation of the breed is being damaged by inaccurate and imprecise statements generated by a minority.

# Caucasian Shepherd Dog -- SPECIAL Cautions!! 
==================================== 
IMO + IME, the Ovtcharka is not a pet; their nickname in the USSR was the Man-stopper, they were used on border patrol and by the military. 
they are such incredibly hard-driven, tough dogs that one breeder evaluates her litters at FIVE weeks for excessive aggression... some she culls (and in this instance, i *do* mean kills them). 

they are incredibly paranoid, much worse than the usual *guard breeds*, Rotts, GSDs, Akitas, etc; they will bite without growling, they lock-up or freeze, hesitate, and chomp. 
they will PROTECT U from Ur spouse, the postie, the neighbor, a child, a passing car, etc, etc. 

FIVE different pro-members of the USA-apdt attempted to keep an Ovtcharka as a pet in their homes; of the 5, one succeeded, and she does have livestock, acreage, and tight fences, WITH a driveway gate; no one will just stroll onto their property! 
the others all gave up, some in under a year. 
Author: LeashedForLife


We have read all these comments on the Caucasian/Sarplaninac Shepherd dog and wondered how such information and experience of them is almost the opposite of what we and other breeders/dog owners have here in Finland. 

The word Ovcharka is Russian and refers to any dog which is a guardian or shepherd dog.
The Caucasian being no different as originally it was bred for just that purpose.

However, it is true that Caucasians have been used in both the Russian and (old) Yugoslavian army and they had been trained to be aggressive for military purposes. But to use that as verification to claim that the breed is aggressive and/or temperamental is both unfair and untrue. Similarly the images of the German shepherd dog has also been portrayed as an aggressive animal during the World War 2 conflict and were used in both POW and Concentration camps. We are actually quite surprised that anyone would label any breed to be aggressive as aggression is not a natural part of a dog. Even 'fighting dogs' have been conditioned to fight. 

The Caucasian/Ovcharka/ Sarplaninac/Ovcharka has been used prolifically as protectors of land, property, livestock and community from the many wild animals that exist in many countries in Europe. For this purpose they are ideal. They are let to roam their territory without tether in countries like Italy and France. 
Would this really be possible if they behaved in the way described? 

We must say that we are absolutely horrified to realise that there is a breeder who believes their puppies should exhibit aggression from 5 weeks onward and actually influences them to be aggressive. 
They lamely attempt to justify their actions by claiming the dogs are intended specifically for security work. Perhaps someone may have even seen the video and heard the chilling statement 'Has the stopping power of a Magnum 45'

If anyone would like to get an idea of what this breed is actually like, you may like watch a few video clips from a Finnish children's film "Myrsky" which illustrates their true natural character.


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## Nicky09 (Feb 26, 2009)

Interesting to read thank you. I know they're good with the family but I'm guessing they take a lot of work as well


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## Captain.Charisma (May 24, 2009)

There amazing dogs, but i dont think they should used as farm dogs and for those with lots of land. I would hate to think what would happen if they became the next status dog with douche bags walking round towns and cities with them, as they could do sooooo much more damange than your "Pitbull's".


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Nicky09 said:


> Interesting to read thank you. I know they're good with the family but I'm guessing they take a lot of work as well


Hello again,

To be honest we wouldnt say that Sarplaninacs take more effort than any other breed of dog. Although we have learned experiences of how easily Sarplaninacs become bored and are aware, therefore, of the damage two rather large bored puppies could inflict upon your treasured furnishings around the home. 
They do need constant stimulation for that indefatigable brain and unfortunately such stimulus cannot be found or bought in a pet shop. They are not dogs which like to play catch the ball or fetch the stick.
They are naturally inquisitive and like to investigate. Therefore space is the key factor here and the freedom to explore that space and we have been fortunate enough to provide them with that essential requirement.
The socialising of these dogs is a must, however, because Sarplaninacs are very independent and choose their companions and wards at a very early age and the strength of the loyalty towards them emerges soon after. This is usually to the exclusion of all others because, intrinsically, they are very cautious animals who rarely, if ever, trust strangers!
It is very important to note that the Sarplaninac is often predisposed to do a little thinking on your behalf and may exhibit an inclination to be a little too impulsive regarding the presence of strangers in or around the home. Vigilance is your better ally in these instances because you can anticipate the animals disposition from the look in its eyes.
The obvious and simple solution is to firmly walk the dog away even though it will forcibly protest at your decision over its.
At this point it is also important to realise that because there is absolutely nothing a Sarplaninac fears a physical reprimand is completely out of the question as it would only lead to more determined behaviour often misinterpreted as defiance.
Furthermore, the dog would never forget, never forgive you, never respect you and never trust you again!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Captain.Charisma said:


> There amazing dogs, but i dont think they should used as farm dogs and for those with lots of land. I would hate to think what would happen if they became the next status dog with douche bags walking round towns and cities with them, as they could do sooooo much more damange than your "Pitbull's".


We do strongly agree with you. Sarplaninacs are dogs which are meant to live in the country. They would never be composed living in a town or city. They need peace, something to watch over and lots of space to wander. In a city they would be too alert all the time and would, therefore, be constantly stressed out thus making them difficult to live with.

Re: Douche bag. 
Any man wanting this breed of dog for the sole purpose of appearing macho to a surrounding public would achieve nothing more than to advertise his own complacency. These dogs are definitely not for the novice handler who thinks that they may be able to control or intimidate an animal either by abusive physical force or by threatening aggressive behaviour.
Sarplaninacs have a strange sense of equality and the impotent handler would soon find the hand he once fed with bitten quite severely!


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## boz469 (Sep 30, 2010)

Zaros,
just stumbled upon this website and your posts...

I am a British Army Officer, having transferred from the Australian Army in '02. Prior to that, I spent my childhood in Yugoslavia, where I literally learned to walk by hanging onto the long, winter coat of my grandfather's largest and fiercest sarplaninac, Medo (The Bear). During winter, he wore a studded harness for protection against wolf bites and dispatched a good number whilst protecting the flock. However, without any training and due to his incredible natural instincts, I was always safe to be left alone with him. Apparently I was absolutely obsessed with him to the point where I worked out if the adults were coming to taking me inside, I would start screaming and Medo would prevent anybody getting near me... 

Anywho, whilst serving in Kosovo in '04/'05, I made my way up the last remaining stronghold of pure Sarplaninac bloodlines. Village of Restelice lies on the tri-border peak (Serbia-Kosovo/Albania/Montenegro) and is above 1500m. Last 5miles was on foot through deep snow and entering a village where time had stopped, resembling something from an adventure series. Ancient saying in the Balkans is that the Sarplaninac can only be considered 'Mountain Ghosts' if they are born on the Sar Planina (Mountain) and above that altitude... So I 'adopted' a boy & a girl, Vucko (Wolfie) and Meca (Lady Bear). Having spoilt them rotten over the following 4mths, I was left heartbroken when I was refused entry into the UK, even though I obtained EU passports in Greece at great effort expense. In the end, having exhausted every effort, I couldn't bring myself to risk them being put down on arrival to Dover and they were fostered by a professor at Prishtina Unversity. 

You're probably wondering why the long story... well, I love dogs, again having quite literally grown up with them, and would love a devoted hiking companion. Are you based in the UK and do you breed them? If not, do you happen to know anybody in the UK or Northern Europe who does, as these appear to be the only places where they can be brought over on a passport?

Kind Regards

Damian


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

Very interesting and informative post, exscuse my ignorance but I had never heard of the Sarplaninacs/Ovcharka before reading this, I am just getting ready to take Louie out (and it's raining, should be interesting !) but fully intend to google the breed when I come back, not that I intend getting one !, I am just interested in finding out about them. wayne.


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## pivoto (Oct 1, 2010)

Hi I am also intrested in buying a sharplaninec in the uk and have had no luck finding a breeder. I actually thought their name was given to them as they were or shall I say are from the sharplaninac mountain reigon of Macedonia and used for the purpose of sheepdog. I have seen a few around and have friends that have some and they are wondrerfull dogs. Again I haven't tried bringing one over to the uk as I would like to get a puppy ,as I have children and want the dog to grow up with them around!!! So if anyone manages to find a breeder here it would be great to know.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

boz469 said:


> Zaros,
> just stumbled upon this website and your posts...
> 
> Ancient saying in the Balkans is that the Sarplaninac can only be considered 'Mountain Ghosts' if they are born on the Sar Planina (Mountain)
> ...


Interesting read. It's a crying bloody shame you weren't allowed to keep the dogs and parting with them must have been difficult if not very traumatic.

However,
Denmark has completely banned the breed and you're not even allowed to travel through the country if you have the dog in transit with you.
Bloody red tape will strangle some poor sod to death before they've finished!

Legend has it that the Sar' grew out of the grey granite of the mountain hence the colouring which is his perfect camouflage. The Sar' guards the mountain, its people and it's liestock and in return for his loyalty the mountain offers shelter from severe weather conditions. 
Are you also aware of the gene the Sar' shares with the Wolf that no other dog does?

I'm English by birth (A Yorkshire lad) but now live in Finland with my Finnish wife where I became familiar with the breed in 2007. Prior to that I had never heard of the breed myself but had always kept giants whilst living in England.
We did have every intention to breed (just the one time) but, unfortunately, the male (Oscar who lives up to his Illryian heritage of being a gentle giant) was diagnosed with Hip dysplasia at 9 months. It was expected of us just to have the animal destroyed because almost all Sar's are working dogs or dogs kept for breeding here. Oscar and his wife Zara  (the business end of the Sar' - more Kraski we believe) are pets and will continue to live their lives as pets. Oscar received the medical attention that was required to save his life and today, less than a year on, he is the dog he was born to be.
They have yet to meet a Wolf or a Bear (both these creatures maintain a very low profile once they know the Sar' is in town. 
It is said that "Wherever the Sar walks the Wolf never will).

They have, however, met the odd Reindeer and Moose.

Apparently, there is a breeder of the Sar' located in the Manchester area (stumbled over by accident on Youtube) but they never responded to any of our mails, particularly those illustrating their duty, responsibility and obligation to inform the prospective owner of the potential of this dog in the hands of a novice.
We are also aware of a breeder in France but once again an E-mail sent was never acknowledged.:confused1:

YouTube - Sarplaninac attack puppies.



critter said:


> Very interesting and informative post, I fully intend to google the breed when I come back, not that I intend getting one !, I am just interested in finding out about them. wayne.


Information on the Sar' is a little sketchy to say the very least but this is an ancient breed (arguably the worlds oldest molosser) Alexander the Great chose and used the breed for his dogs of war. A formidable enemy indeed when you consider the Sar' fears nothing that either God or man made in this life.
If you can find a book entitled 'From the roof of the world to the top of the Balkans' by Obrad B Skipic, (there's only a few in circulation) I think you'll find it makes very interesting reading (includes a sensitive insight as to how the breed might have been corrupted) despite it's political foundation of nonsense and the use of broken English.
In reality though, very little is known about the Sar' and the majority of reports based on bad experiences with the breed have been generated from people who had absolutely no idea of the history of the animal or what they were getting themselves involved with. Therefore, whatever problems were to surface were linked directly to the owners inability to understand the true potential of the dog.

YouTube - Putting the bitch in her place!



pivoto said:


> Hi I am also intrested in buying a sharplaninec in the uk and have had no luck finding a breeder. I actually thought their name was given to them as they were or shall I say are from the sharplaninac mountain reigon of Macedonia and used for the purpose of sheepdog.


The true history and cultural identity of this dog has long been lost in the Political fuedings of nations and despite the name of 'Sarplaninac' it is claimed by some to be the Illryian Shepherd dog then the Macedonian Yougslav shepherd dog and so on and so on. But for all intent and purpose it is a sheepdog.

Icidentally the term Ovcharka is an old russian word for 'Guardian of the flock' and, in truth, refers to almost any livestock guardian breed.
Today, Ovcharka has a sinister overtone to it simply because of how the breed has been exploited by man. The Caucasian being the most notorious of all albeit a little slower in thinking and by comparison to the Sar' a primitive juggernaut

Again, as I have previously stated Manchester is supposed to have a breeder, Youtube' Sarplaninacs in UK.:confused1:

YouTube - Sarplaninacs. Lets play chase.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Cant wait to own my very own CAO, unfortunately it i many year away yet 

Ive been researching them for about 6 years and it'll be about 10 years before I actually look into purchasing one, but they are a breed which has captivated me. Ive met the only ones in the uk and also a few in Europe

Sadly their amazing instincts can be misused but in the right hands - WOW :thumbup:


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

Hi, I grew up in USSR and was involved in dog training a bit there. 
Sorry, but they can be extremely aggressive. I&#8217;ve seen examples of them when they are not aggressive at all but it is seen by army an many others as a bad example of the breed(dogs like that often end up in shelters as they disappoint the owners for not being good service dogs &#8230;.).
And if you buy a puppy from non-working lines and keep him on a sofa and never allow to express aggression, most likely he will grow up as a perfectly normal pet dog. But given the right training, these dogs can be vicious. They are still prison and border (and military objects) guards No1 in Russia&#8230;..

p.s pls bare in mind that dogs evolve very quickly, and if you breed non aggressive (lacking the guard instinct etc) ovcharkas between themselves, their puppies and further offspring will loose that instinct too. Dogs of the same breed from different breeding lines can have a very different temper&#8230;

Years ago there was a Labrador in our training class, his owner was with a diplomatic mission in Africa (don&#8217;t remember which country) and bought him there for protection and brought back to Russia when his contract was over. He told us that Labradors there a used as guard dogs and are widely used to guard prisons&#8230; this Labrador vas extremely aggressive and in the end was put down to slip as he attacked a child&#8230; you will never find a Labrador capable of guarding prisons in the uk&#8230;

in general, ovcharka&#8217;s are thought to be dangerous cos they have a very simple nervous system compare to other service breeds. i..e you usually can&#8217;t teach them IPO or Schizhund like with german shepherd for example.

GS can be taught to bite a person and then to let go when the person doesn&#8217;t move and to sit down and bark alerting the handler where the &#8220;criminal&#8221; is and then attack again if the &#8220;criminal&#8221; tries to run&#8230; Ovcharkas generally can&#8217;t be taught that. They either attack or dont attack. i.e. it chases you down and attacks until you are dead or until its handler comes and pulls it away from you, that&#8217;s why if you are not a Russian army officer and have ovcharka, it is very important not to allow your ovcharka to discover its aggression (if it has any in the first place, depending on what breeding lines its from)


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

here you go


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Tigerprawn said:


> Hi, I grew up in USSR and was involved in dog training a bit there.
> Sorry, but they can be extremely aggressive. Ive seen examples of them when they are not aggressive at all but it is seen by army an many others as a bad example of the breed(dogs like that often end up in shelters as they disappoint the owners for not being good service dogs .).
> And if you buy a puppy from non-working lines and keep him on a sofa and never allow to express aggression, most likely he will grow up as a perfectly normal pet dog. *But given the right training, these dogs can be vicious*. They are still prison and border (and military objects) guards No1 in Russia..
> 
> ...


Don't you mean the wrong training? I know nothing about this breed and all dogs have different traits, but any dog can be made vicious if nasty things are done to it, as proved by your statement about labradors in Africa.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Tigerprawn said:


> here you go


I could show you a chihuahua doing that 

Amazing guard dogs, have been for 1000s of years, *any *dog can be trained to be vicious!
You seem to be leaning towards breed discrimination imo


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Don't you mean the wrong training? I know nothing about this breed and all dogs have different traits, but any dog can be made vicious if nasty things are done to it, as proved by your statement about labradors in Africa.


sorry, of course I meant right training for the army for example, where they are meant to be aggressive towards strangers and protect their territory


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

Starlite said:


> I could show you a chihuahua doing that
> 
> Amazing guard dogs, have been for 1000s of years, *any *dog can be trained to be vicious!
> You seem to be leaning towards breed discrimination imo


trust me, these dogs are something! and it comes from personal experience. and I am not discriminating at all, I trully love this breed, just trying to explain what this breed is about, thats all


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Starlite said:


> I could show you a chihuahua doing that
> 
> Amazing guard dogs, have been for 1000s of years, *any *dog can be trained to be vicious!
> You seem to be leaning towards breed discrimination imo


Actually I have a picture of Ferdie looking just like that! Except he is lying on his back with puppy Joshua on top of him and it is just where his mouth fell back to reveal his teeth!


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## Âüþãà (Jan 12, 2010)

On neutral territory Caucasian Shepherd are loyal to strangers and do not show aggression. After all, their main goal - protection of owners and boundaries of their own territory, and not an individual victory over the enemy. Therefore, no enemy or hunting the object is not captivate them on the boundaries of protected areas.

Another valuable quality of the breed is asceticism in all, they endured hunger and thirst, cold, pain from his wounds. This was fixed for centuries, and the need bear protection around the clock and in any weather is the norm for Caucasians living. For them, it is natural to sleep on the snow in a blizzard completely disappearing over it and jump at the slightest danger.

A distinctive feature of this breed is the ability to make decisions.


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## Âüþãà (Jan 12, 2010)

Caucasian Shepherd Dog - it's not German,
performing the orders immediately after his admission.
Caucasian Shepherd Dog thinks, evaluates and decides.


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## Âüþãà (Jan 12, 2010)




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## Âüþãà (Jan 12, 2010)

6 months. Height at withers 70 cm


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

they are beautiful.:thumbup:


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## Âüþãà (Jan 12, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> they are beautiful.:thumbup:


They are really beautiful. Powerful and with his charm.:thumbup:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

In one of the videos it shows a couple of these dogs taking down wolves that are attacking a herd of sheep, the dogs owners then proudly marches the dog through the village carrying the remains of the dead wolf for the villagers to see, the dog does not appear to show an aggression to any of the strangers that are coming up to the owner giving rewards for the dogs actions, obviously if these dogs can be shown, and judges go over them, they cannot be as bad as they originally looked in earlier post, I got the distinct impression they were ONLY ok with their owner. and that they were made out to be some sort of devil dogs.

Mo


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

moboyd said:


> In one of the videos it shows a couple of these dogs taking down wolves that are attacking a herd of sheep, the dogs owners then proudly marches the dog through the village carrying the remains of the dead wolf for the villagers to see, the dog does not appear to show an aggression to any of the strangers that are coming up to the owner giving rewards for the dogs actions, obviously if these dogs can be shown, and judges go over them, they cannot be as bad as they originally looked in earlier post, I got the distinct impression they were ONLY ok with their owner. and that they were made out to be some sort of devil dogs.
> 
> Mo


repped, perfectly put


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tigerprawn said:


> Hi, I grew up in USSR and was involved in dog training a bit there.
> Sorry, but they can be extremely aggressive. I've seen examples of them when they are not aggressive at all but it is seen by army an many others as a bad example of the breed


Which dogs did you train a bit in particular? 
Both the CO and the Sar' can become disturbingly aggressive if the naturally inherent protection instinct in the breed is encouraged, exploited and tailored to suit a requirement.
Serbs and Russians are mostly responsible for being instrumental in corrupting the nature of both these breeds and despite the Sar' being a peaceful and nonviolent animal those who demand the dog be aggressive would not look twice or entertain the dog if it were not so.
Aggression is taught and learned behaviour.



Âüþãà;1877344 said:


> On neutral territory Caucasian Shepherd are loyal to strangers and do not show aggression.
> Another valuable quality of the breed is, they endured hunger and thirst, cold, pain from his wounds.


Loyalty to strangers? Perhaps you have worded this wrongly? They are very aware of strangers and can detect them long before they come into view.
First signs that something is not quite right is that they stand with their heads held high sniffing the air intently.

Again, both the Sar' and the CO breeds are closely related in many respects and it would seem there aren't many in the world who fully understand the nature of the beasts.
But, unfortunately, I have to differ with your statement which claims enduring pain is a valuable quality. 
Actually, it's a terrible legacy for the dog to bear and one, although in its blueprint, which can and has ultimately cost the animal it's life in more ways than one.
Example: 10 month old Sar' (Oscar) undergoes major hip replacement surgery and requires full rest for 8 weeks. (This meant no walks whatsoever. The minimal of movement and assistance in the first week when shifting positions) Yet, just three short days later and to our stark surprise he's up and running around like a lunatic as if nothing had ever happened.
Having to sleep shift patterns for 8 weeks is not a joke especially when you have a 60 kilo pup who wants nothing more than to expend his pent up energies. I personally did not sleep for an entire week
To endure pain in certain circumstances then is an admirable quality.
The Sar' like the CO doesn't suffer cold either. His coat is perfectly adapted to meet with most weather conditions except the heat. (Oscar, hindquarters shaved, would sit quite contentedly outside for hours in temperatures of minus 40C) The coat itself is comprised of 3 layers which range in density and length from the flesh of the animal to the top coat which is often a loose thatch. The depth of the whole coat can range from 3 to 8cm and shaving the dog (in the instance of surgical procedures) exposes his true size of frame which is quite a shock if you're expecting find a big dog underneath. The coat lends illusion to his true size.
However, the appetite of the animal is quite remarkable in their natural environment they can go without food for long periods and even as domesticated juniors and adults they appear to eat minimal amounts which certainly do not fall in line with the guidelines of food manufacturers. Although they never turn their noses up at carrion. 



moboyd said:


> the dog does not appear to show an aggression to any of the strangers that are coming up to the owner giving rewards for the dogs actions, obviously if these dogs can be shown, and judges go over them, they cannot be as bad as they originally looked in earlier post, I got the distinct impression they were ONLY ok with their owner. and that they were made out to be some sort of devil dogs.
> 
> Mo


The Sar' in particular will assess any stranger/newcomer and if the animal is satisfied that all is well he/she will sit close by monitoring the situation through many of its different phases. Body language, voice tones etc.
They are great peacekeepers and won't tolerate raised anxious voices. The Sar' (Male) has a volumous bark which would tell even the most stupid of people that 'if you want to mess with us then you mess with me first.' 
Speaking from experience of ownership and the combined knowledge of many friends and acquaintances who own the Sar' or the CO the only devil in the animal is the devilment of mischief.
Our argument has continually been that if these breeds are supposedly so dangerous then how is it possible for them roam freely over their land or to attend exhibitions without altercation. How is it they are able to be handled by complete strangers (Judges) It's a complete mystery to us and it would seem that there are those in this life who would, for a few bad apples, burn the entire orchard.


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Serbs and Russians are mostly responsible for being instrumental in corrupting the nature of both these breeds and despite the Sar' being a peaceful and nonviolent animal


Don't you think you are crossing the line here a bit? If not for Serbs/Russians/Georgians, the breed would not exist in the first place!

German Sheppards, Rottweilers, Dobermans etc. are all used by the army and police ALL OVER THE WORLD. And taught to guard and protect and attack and be aggressive. They are working breeds and service dogs now but, like ovcharkas, originally where not bred for police purposes but for guarding live stock.

So why are you not blaming Brits, Germans and Co for "corrupting the nature" of poor sweet rotties and dobermans?

If you have such a prejudice against Russians/Serbs etc, don't get a dog from that region!

For the record, dog fights between ovcharkas always have been and still are very popular in rural Georgia/Caucasian areas and in many places seen as a tradition, part of their culture, like bull fighting in Spain. Ovcharkas with good fighting skills are very valued there and bred from. They even now still have national chapionships and ovcharka dog fighting contests. http://www.caucasianovcharka.ru/dog_fighting.htm

President of Chechnya, for example, is a proud owner of caucasian ovcharkas and also regularly held's national dog fighting championships where the winner gets a personal prize form the president, Ovcharka's from all over Caucasus come to this event to participate. The official story is:

1.	it is a national tradition
2.	it is the only way to preserve working qualities of the breed. It's been done so for centuries, young ovcharkas have always been taught how to fight and to kill wolfs in dog fights. It is naïve to expect that young ovcharka puppies were just thrown into the field to guard sheep and were killing wolfs straight away cos they are born with that skill. They are born with good guarding instincts and fighting skills but they are taught this skill through dog fighting before they become good sheppards.

So effectively, according to you, people have been "corrupting their nature" on a regular basis during their entire existence!

Ovcharka's are lovely dogs and I really like this breed, but claiming that they are an absolutely "peaceful and nonviolent animal" that only get aggressive in the hands of evil Russians and Serbs is a seriously ridiculous statement!


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Our argument has continually been that if these breeds are supposedly so dangerous then how is it possible for them roam freely over their land or to attend exhibitions without altercation. How is it they are able to be handled by complete strangers (Judges) It's a complete mystery to us and it would seem that there are those in this life who would, for a few bad apples, burn the entire orchard.


 A very close friend of mine has an American pit bull as a nanny for her son, he learned how to walk thanks to that dog, this pit bull been shown and won dog shows in the past, its extremely obedient, loyal and friendly to strangers but he is still a dangerous dog (and his owners admit that and act accordinly) as it is turning into a total monster when attacked or thinks that his family is in danger and not because he was trained to be aggressive by the evil Russian owners.

I am not saying that your dogs are dasngerous but ovcharkas being able to roam freely on a field and being touched by a judge on a dog show does not exactly make them "labradors"


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## snoopydo (Jan 19, 2010)

They look Gorgeous And Magificant I would love to meet one...

I really can't get over the Sheer Size of this one......










Amazing and Beautiful.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Tigerprawn said:


> Dont you think you a crossing the line here a bit? If not for Serbs/Russians/Georgians, the breed would not exist in the first place!
> 
> German Sheppards, Rottweilers, Dobermans etc are all used by the army and police ALL OVER THE WORLD. And taught to guard and protect and attack and be aggressive. They are working breeds and service dogs now but, like ovcharkas, originally where not bred for police purposes but for guarding live stock.
> 
> ...


Sorry to insult national traditions (well no, I'm not actually) but that is bloody disgusting. Dog fighting has been illegal in the UK for some years as it is barbaric and anyone who finds sport in this sort of cruelty is subnormal. Any sport where an animal suffers and cannot defend itself, like bull fighting, dog fighting, badger baiting and all the other obscene sports should be outlawed.


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Sorry to insult national traditions (well no, I'm not actually) but that is bloody disgusting. Dog fighting has been illegal in the UK for some years as it is barbaric and anyone who finds sport in this sort of cruelty is subnormal. Any sport where an animal suffers and cannot defend itself, like bull fighting, dog fighting, badger baiting and all the other obscene sports should be outlawed.


I am against dog fighting too and the above has nothing to do with Russian culture.

But since the author of this topic claims that «Russians are mostly responsible for being instrumental in corrupting the nature of both these breeds» I am showing what the Caucasians have actually been doing with these dogs for centuries!

Seriously, good idea to read history of the breed and what it's been and is still used for before making such accusations!

It looks like the author of this topic truly believes that Caucasian Ovcharcas have always been just fluffy peaceful teddy bears who were just peacefully roaming on the Caucasian fields with sheep (and somehow were also killing all the wolfs on the way) and then Russians moved in and turned them into vicious monsters!

All Russians did is recognized the exceptional skills of the breed and started using them in the army and police.

Working caucasian shepherd dogs would not only kill any wolf that would roam on their field but also any other dog that doesn't belong to their pack.


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

snoopydo said:


> They look Gorgeous And Magificant I would love to meet one...
> 
> I really can't get over the Sheer Size of this one......
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tigerprawn said:


> Dont you think you are crossing the line here a bit?


I havent crossed any line. But I have taken the time and opportunity to cross cultural boundaries to discover more about these amazing animals from a wide cross section of people including breeders and have, therefore, only posted comments and opinions based on factual information handed on and personal experience.
If you found my remarks to be inflammatory then that was purely accidental but, nevertheless, they remain the truth.
Perhaps in an effort to have been gramatically precise I should have applied the word Predominantly because Predominantly certain nationalities demand that these dogs be aggressive if not down right vicious.
These dogs were bred to protect communities not individuals and they should still remain a sociable animal in spite of their suspicion of strangers.
Moreover, on a recent trip to Serbia to purchase a 3 year old Sar, the owner from whom the dog was bought physically attacked the animal in quite a disturbing manner. After being restrained he claimed his actions were necessary to break the bond of friendship between him and the animal and maintained that had he not done so the animal, being nomadic, would eventually find its way back home.
In addition, Youtube appears to be the home of vicious/aggressive dog videos and is littered with examples of certain nationalities whipping these dogs up into a frenzy for no other reason than the amusement of the camera. 
They demonstrate nothing more than how to destroy the nature and temperament of an otherwise magnificent animal and represent an assurance of imposing bans on both these breeds.
Both the CO and the Sar do not need to be taught how to guard. It is a discipline which is intrinsic to them. They were born sentinels.


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## Tigerprawn (Sep 19, 2010)

Zaros said:


> These dogs should still remain a sociable animal .


I never once said that they are all unsociable or should be unsociable animals



Zaros said:


> Both the CO and the Sar' do not need to be taught how to guard. It is a discipline which is intrinsic to them. They were born sentinels.


do you seriously believe that they are born wolf killers and do not require any training for that?

And it is Caucasians NOT RUSSIANS who still even today use them in official and legal dog fighting contests for the reasons I've listed above.

as for youtube, I can find you tones of dog fighting videos posted on youtube by brits and Italians and…

There is nothing criminal or cruel in using dogs in army and police like Russians do. IT HAPPENDS IN YOUR COUNTRY TOO YOU KNOW!

You clearly ignored everything I've said and keep sitting on your high horse about evil Russians.

I've lost interest in this discussion as have nothing more to say and you clearly don't care anyway.

I wish your dogs best of luck, you are lucky to be an owner of such wonderful dogs.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tigerprawn said:


> IT HAPPENDS IN YOUR COUNTRY TOO YOU KNOW!
> 
> You clearly ignored everything I've said and keep sitting on your high horse about evil Russians.
> 
> ...


(1) And what country might that be? Have you been selectively reading and taking out of context? I rather believe you have. 
(2) I haven't ignored a single word you posted I simply chose not to respond to comments that were inaccurate. I don't own a high horse or a clothes horse for that matter but I do have a hobby horse which, by strange coincidence is the Sar' and the CO. And I never uttered a single word about 'Evil Russians' those were words of your choosing.
(3) Thank you kindly. I wholeheartedly agree with you, I am very fortunate indeed. And so too are the dogs.

Ra ra Rasputin!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I know I am coming late to this discussion, but I'm a Newbie
I have family who live in Macedonia and first came accross a Saplaninac when we were driving in the mountains past a flock of sheep which were lying down. Suddenly one of the "sheep" (Sarplaninac, obviously!) stood up, very slowly and deliberatly and looked all around before satisfying himself that all was well and sat down again amoungst the sheep, where he could not be easily seen. The scene made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up! I had never seen such a noble, proud dog before and I was hooked!

I have since seen many more, both working and in the town (where they are used to guard houses and property). The saddest sight I have ever seen was one of these magnificent dogs, wandering around the town in the most appalling state. he was clearly very old and was covered in sores. He had pus all over his face and could only open one eye slightly. He had baler twine tied around his neck. He seemed to me to have been dumped, but I don't know.

If the world was a fairer, kinder place I would have a sarplaninac in a heartbeat, but it's not. I wouldn't have one because I don't want to encourage the "douchbags" of this world (and we seem to have more than our fair share here) and don't want to introduce another breed they can corrupt and destroy.

These are truly beautiful, magnificent creatures but IMO they should remain where they were meant to be--that is gaurding flocks of sheep in the mountains.

Just my opinion. I don't want tp p*** anyone off.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I know I am coming late to this discussion, but I'm a Newbie
> I have family who live in Macedonia and first came accross a Saplaninac when we were driving in the mountains past a flock of sheep which were lying down. Suddenly one of the "sheep" (Sarplaninac, obviously!) stood up, very slowly and deliberatly and looked all around before satisfying himself that all was well and sat down again amoungst the sheep, where he could not be easily seen. The scene made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up!* I had never seen such a noble*, proud *dog before* and I was hooked!
> 
> I have since seen many more, both working and in the town (where they are used to guard houses and property). The saddest sight I have ever seen was one of these magnificent dogs, wandering around the town in the most appalling state. he was clearly very old and was covered in sores. He had pus all over his face and could only open one eye slightly. He had baler twine tied around his neck. He seemed to me to have been dumped, but I don't know.
> ...


Hello and welcome.

Noble is indeed an excellent way of describing this breed of dog. 
But then I might be accused of being bias? 

I have read many accounts of these dogs being neglected for one particular reason or another, poverty being the main culprit, and chances are the dog you saw, although nomadic to a certain extent, wouldn't have been far from the land that is, or once was, his.
It's a shame his condition was so deplorable.

Unfortunately, it has to be said, they do corrupt this breed, in much the same way that many other breeds like them have been corrupted, and, inevitably, they have destroyed its once impeccable reputation.

Although the two Sar's we own do not work we have been fortunate enough to provide them with a life style which, we consider, befits the breed admirably.


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## demi (Dec 27, 2010)

i live in macedonia where these dogs originate from. they were originally bread for protecting sheep from wolves and other prediotrs. i see them everyday in amongst the flocks of sheep roaming round the mountain with the shephard. they are beautiful big dogs and i have met many ( on the street and in gardens of friends who own them) and the majority are perfectly happy to see you and friendly. 
there are some idiots though who use them for dog fighting which is horrible!

but my experiance with these dogs is a very positive one and most probably our next dog will be a sarplaninac.

this link is for an old documentary about the history of the sarplaninac dog 
( its a big grusom coz they kill the wolves to protect their sheep so if your squeemish dont watch it) and its in macedonian

YouTube - Vuk vs Sarplaninac


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## highup (Apr 7, 2012)

Not to be confused with the other breeds Sarplaninac originates from Sar (reads as Shar) mountain area in the Balkans divided between Kosovo,Albania and Macedonia.

The bread was used by former Yugoslav armed forces as a guard dog. I am an ex NCO of Yugoslav Air-Force and we also shared our barracks with the Army vet center where number of these dogs were kept.

We also used them as guard dogs and from my experience they are good nature dogs, never seen signs of extreme aggression. There was an exemption, there was a Sarplaninac that was born in the snow on the top of the mountain where Air Force Telecom center was based. He grew up there in the harsh environment and never received any training. The station crew nicknamed him Medo (Bear). First time I arrived there I wanted to play with him but I was warned you can only play with him when he allows it otherwise he knocks you on the ground and walks away.

There was a ski-lift nearby and once he saved the lives of the skiers caught up in the winter storm by leading them to the military installations.

It all ended up wrong way when one of the engineers kicked him, he remembered that and next time he visited the installations Medo attacked him. The order was issued to destroy Medo and the military policemen was dispatched armed with Yugoslav version of AK47.

Medo sensed the danger and run away, but was eventually ambushed and killed.

I love the bread but these dogs are huge and they are not suitable for house/flat. There is no inherent aggression, so unless trained to attack it is safe, they are friendly towards kids.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Sars are being bred in Australia.

I've never seen the actual dogs, here. However I have seen several websites which advertise them. I must say I was amazed because I cannot imagine a dog less suited to the climate.

To me it verges on cruel to keep a dog like that in a hot country but perhaps I'm wrong and they adapt. To me they should have a home like Zaros's dogs have. They look SO happy running and playing in snow.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

The part that read "Of the 5 only one succeeded - the others gave up, some in under one year" to me just means owners who can't be @rsed to put the work that's involved with a more challenging breed into raising it properly and not that they are like some kind of 'lion' dog. Many many Mals, in fact most, who are put into rescue are put their in their first year to eighteen months by what I believe are lazy people who see dogs as disposable items that they can't be bothered to spend the extra amount of time it takes to train them. 

No reflection on the dog itself, more so the irresponsible owners who bought them on a whim.

Your dogs are stunning and I'm sure if you put the work in with this breed you can have loyal, obedient companions BUT you have to be willing to see them through to maturity in order to reap what you sow much the same as with any challenging breed!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Malmum said:


> The part that read "Of the 5 only one succeeded - the others gave up, some in under one year"
> 
> to me just means owners who can't be @rsed to put the work that's involved with a more challenging breed.
> 
> No reflection on the dog itself, more so the irresponsible owners who bought them on a whim.


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## Beverage (Mar 22, 2012)

This is possibly one of the most interesting threads on this forum. I have literally discovered the Sarplanic Breed this morning. I'm now frantically researching. Its truely amazing. 

Any good places to look?

I love dogs that historically were essential to peoples livelihoods. This is my attraction to Newfoundlands. Plus I love giant breeds too.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Beverage said:


> This is possibly one of the most interesting threads on this forum. I have literally discovered the Sarplanic Breed this morning. I'm now frantically researching. Its truely amazing.
> 
> Any good places to look?


You see, this just proves there is an awakening for everyone somewhere along the path of their life. 

The only half decent half written truth about the breed lies between the pages of a book entitled 'From the roof of the world to the top of the Balkans; Saplaninac.' by the late Obrad B Skipic. 
I believe he considered himself to be the world's leading authority on the animal and, therefore, 'Sarplaninac Whisperer' extraordinaire 

The book is written in two languages, Serbian and English, (just in case anyone wanted to familiarise themselves with the Serb mother tongue) and is a very interesting read providing you're able to stomach the political 80L0X that has unfortunately followed this breed around. :001_rolleyes:


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Amazing looking dogs, completely new to me, but my heart cringed at the thought of all those pathetic men who would want the dog for macho status.

The dog fighting obscenity is worldwide and there has recently been a petition to encourage North Carolina to make dog fighting illegal. I believe only 16ish US states either have made it illegal OR 16ish states are yet to make it illegal to run dogfights.

The incidence of dogfighting and cockfighting is growing in Australia, with the increasing migration of men from the Asian, European, etc countries, where a primitive, ill educated brutality is still seen as something to be proud of, as a masculine trait. My own, gentle chook (hen) lover's forum, has issued warnings of men in Perth, (Australia), trying to buy roosters for fighting.

Wherever this obscenity happens, it comes from areas where education is poor, poverty is endemic and life is close to subsistance. The horror is, that those who escape those areas, who even become wealthy and/or powerful, are taking these obscene practises and traditions, often based on macho nonsense, into the mainstream or 'Cultural' claims to exist. It is as acceptable as slavery, and should be slammed, worldwide, across the board, and the perpetrators SHOULD be prosecuted, sthn state *******, to remote European cave dweller, as strongly as war criminals. I imagine that in many cases, they would be rounding up the same people.


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## Melissa27 (Mar 15, 2012)

househens said:


> Amazing looking dogs, completely new to me, but my heart cringed at the thought of all those pathetic men who would want the dog for macho status.
> 
> *The dog fighting obscenity is worldwide and there has recently been a petition to encourage North Carolina to make dog fighting illegal. I believe only 16ish US states either have made it illegal OR 16ish states are yet to make it illegal to run dogfights.*
> 
> ...


I agree that it is awful (I have a hard time even _thinking_ about what those poor dogs go through ). I just thought I would let you know that there is a federal ban in the US on dog fighting, and it is very much illegal in all 50 US states.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

I only know about North Carolina, because it has only been in the last 2 months that I signed the petition to demand legislators pass the law, which was being presented in North Carolina. I type in animal rights petitions, regularly, and sign up to 100 at a time (97 one day, rejected 8, had already signed 16). When I requested that others sign the North Carolina petition, on an Oz forum, someone else was so shocked, that they went off and googled, and came back to say the 16 states only so far signed or 16 to go, I can't remember exactly. I must say, it shocked/horrified me. Is there a state/federal lag? Is it a definition thing? I CANNOT believe it was more than 3 months, at most, that I signed it. I think the Nth C petition is long finished, and am not sure which site it was on, I think I visit 3 sites that come up, under animal welfare petitions. I believe they are international, but there are a lot protesting American actions. Lots of petitions against bear and wolf shooting in National Parks. I think I joined here in May, so it may have been April, that I signed the Nth C petition. See if I can work it out.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

Melissa27 Sorry got back as fast as possible. Long boring story, this end, no sleep. CORRECTION The petition was for BEARBAITING, using dogs and betting, resulting in the death of bears and many dogs and just as savage and barbaric and skin crawlingly evil, in any case. Many dogs killed, until the bear is overwhelmed and the bear is doomed to a death that is as barbaric as gas chambers for Jews, and whilst I am a left leaning middle class type, I would be happy to be the executioner of those involved. That is still legal in all but 16ish states or only illegal in 16 states. Forgot to check the date I posted the date I asked people to sign

Bearbaiting is still done in Middle Europe, the Russias, Pakistan and India and other countries. and the rest of my post can stand.

I do recall an American football star was convicted of dog fighting and running a ring. I believe he is still playing football professionally, after was it 18 mths in gaol? I believe he is planning to challenge a ruling that he is not allowed to own dogs.

Perhaps the Sars here, looking so bearlike, made me slightly confused, in my tiredness. Sorry, but the depravity of both, I stand by.


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## Melissa27 (Mar 15, 2012)

househens said:


> I only know about North Carolina, because it has only been in the last 2 months that I signed the petition to demand legislators pass the law, which was being presented in North Carolina. I type in animal rights petitions, regularly, and sign up to 100 at a time (97 one day, rejected 8, had already signed 16). When I requested that others sign the North Carolina petition, on an Oz forum, someone else was so shocked, that they went off and googled, and came back to say the 16 states only so far signed or 16 to go, I can't remember exactly. I must say, it shocked/horrified me. Is there a state/federal lag? Is it a definition thing? I CANNOT believe it was more than 3 months, at most, that I signed it. I think the Nth C petition is long finished, and am not sure which site it was on, I think I visit 3 sites that come up, under animal welfare petitions. I believe they are international, but there are a lot protesting American actions. Lots of petitions against bear and wolf shooting in National Parks. I think I joined here in May, so it may have been April, that I signed the Nth C petition. See if I can work it out.





househens said:


> Melissa27 Sorry got back as fast as possible. Long boring story, this end, no sleep. CORRECTION The petition was for BEARBAITING, using dogs and betting, resulting in the death of bears and many dogs and just as savage and barbaric and skin crawlingly evil, in any case. Many dogs killed, until the bear is overwhelmed and the bear is doomed to a death that is as barbaric as gas chambers for Jews, and whilst I am a left leaning middle class type, I would be happy to be the executioner of those involved. That is still legal in all but 16ish states or only illegal in 16 states. Forgot to check the date I posted the date I asked people to sign
> 
> Bearbaiting is still done in Middle Europe, the Russias, Pakistan and India and other countries. and the rest of my post can stand.
> 
> ...


Ah, no need to explain regarding sleep deprivation, I have been there many times.  I was just a bit baffled at first because it has been a federal law (and it is actually a felony in most states to even _attend_ a dog fight, much less participate) for 5+ years now.

On the subject of Michael Vick (the football player), even just his name makes me angry. That sick excuse of a human being shouldn't be allowed within 100 feet of an animal. :mad5:

I agree regarding bearbaiting. Absolutely barbaric, and to be honest I had no idea it was still legal in any US states. I just looked it up and it appears the only place it is practiced is South Carolina. I have no idea why in the world that hadnt been stopped yet, it is beyond disgusting and I cant think of any possible reason to justify something that horrific. Thank goodness I am at the other end of the country.

P.S, I apologise for my part in the inadvertent thread-derailment. :blushing:


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

househens said:


> Amazing looking dogs, completely new to me, but my heart cringed at the thought of all those pathetic men who would want the dog for macho status.
> 
> The dog fighting obscenity is worldwide and there has recently been a petition to encourage North Carolina to make dog fighting illegal. I believe only 16ish US states either have made it illegal OR 16ish states are yet to make it illegal to run dogfights.
> 
> Wherever this obscenity happens, it comes from areas where education is poor, poverty is endemic and life is close to subsistance. The horror is, that those who escape those areas, who even become wealthy and/or powerful, are taking these obscene practises and traditions, often based on macho nonsense, into the mainstream or 'Cultural' claims to exist. It is as acceptable as slavery, and should be slammed, worldwide, across the board, and the perpetrators SHOULD be prosecuted, sthn state *******, to remote European cave dweller, as strongly as war criminals. I imagine that in many cases, they would be rounding up the same people.


Here's a controversial post that will no doubt raise the heckles of most members here. 
But first of all allow me to say that I do not condone any form of Dog Fighting. It repulses me.

However, there are still areas of the world where pitting one Dog against another is done for 'reasons' other than money and profit. These fights often last but a minute or so and the owners are required to stay in the arena with their animal. 
Unlike Dog fighting as we commonly know it, there are very strict rules attached to these tournaments. Such rituals, according to those who are involved with and support them ensure that only the strongest Dog gets to sire the female.

Such cultural beliefs are now being corrupted by the offer of money. 
Wouldn't you just know it!



househens said:


> Melissa27 Sorry got back as fast as possible. Long boring story, this end, no sleep. CORRECTION The petition was for BEARBAITING, using dogs and betting, resulting in the death of bears and many dogs and just as savage and barbaric and skin crawlingly evil, in any case. Many dogs killed, until the bear is overwhelmed and the bear is doomed to a death that is as barbaric as gas chambers for Jews.
> 
> Bearbaiting is still done in Middle Europe, the Russias, Pakistan and India and other countries. and the rest of my post can stand.
> 
> Perhaps the Sars here, looking so bearlike, made me slightly confused, in my tiredness. Sorry, but the depravity of both, I stand by.


This is the painful ignorance that has plagued our species throughout history. A Dog is no match for such a powerful animal like the Bear.

Even the Sar' with it's blueprint familiarity of the animal won't physically make contact with it until it is left with no other option but to defend itself or its master. 
The Sar' is not an attack Dog.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/212062-if-you-go-down-woods-today.html

Similarly the Karelian Bear Dog, a great hunter, will not make contact with the Bear because he also instinctively knows that he is no match for such a muscular animal. 
The Bear Dog's main purpose is to distract the Bear so that the hunter can move in for the kill shot.

Many folks seem to misdunderstand and misinterpret breed titles automatically believing such an animal as the KBD can take down a Bear on it's own.

Bear baiting is cruelly based on numbers and attrition.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2012)

There is no ritual, no tradition, no amount of time, no amount of protective padding, no custom, no culture(?!), no reason acceptable for any fighting of animals within species or from different species, for religious, cultural, historical, status, entertainment of humans. Period. 

Anyone claiming those excuses is either superstitious and uneducated, boorish, sadistic and/or sociopathic, brutish or simply bloody evil. 9 times out of 10, it's a status gesture that in someway, makes some inadequate, uneducated and powerless man feel like he has proven his masculinity. Don't wave religion at me to excuse such barbarity, that would be pouring petrol on fire.

I assume you repeat the reasons you are told, but as far as as I am concerned, that is like telling me why paedophilia, in some circumstances...

No, 'It's an education/tradition thing, give it a couple of generations, make it a ritual...' It's an obscenity. You make it a ritual and there will always be those who say, if it is a ritual accepted by society, then the act itself, is purer.
Would you suggest a ritual rape, only acted out, as acceptable? A ritualised act of paedophilia? What message is sent?

This cannot be accepted in any form. That goes for the barbarity of bullfighting, all the way through.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

They are certainly magnificent dogs. I would love to meet one.

Very interesting thread indeed, very educational 

And thank you to those of you who have posted the stunning pictures - WOW!


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## Retri (Feb 22, 2012)

I love ovcharka, they are such an impressive breed, I would love to own one one day, but I doubt I will ever have the space for them.

for people looking to own one in the UK I think this guy is based in the UK so may be able to help....

introducing: Bear my Caucasian Ovcharka puppy! - Reptile Forums


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

househens said:


> There is no ritual, no tradition, no amount of time, no amount of protective padding, no custom, no culture(?!), no reason acceptable for any fighting of animals within species or from different species, for religious, cultural, historical, status, entertainment of humans. Period.
> 
> Anyone claiming those excuses is either superstitious and uneducated, boorish, sadistic and/or sociopathic, brutish or simply bloody evil. 9 times out of 10, it's a status gesture that in someway, makes some inadequate, uneducated and powerless man feel like he has proven his masculinity. Don't wave religion at me to excuse such barbarity, that would be pouring petrol on fire.
> 
> ...


You see, I did say the post regarding the 'Dog fighting' comment would be controversial and I did say I abhorred the practice yet you insist to preach things to me that I am already aware of as though I was a contributary party to the idea.

Or have I read out of context

Dog fighting is and always will be considered a 'Blood Sport' by the majority, including myself, regardless of how certain minorities might want to persuade us to think differently.

The aftermath of a Dog fight, particularly in the instance I posted, is no guarantee that the strongest genes are always passed on and, therefore, such ideology stands to prove that myth and legend are still destructive beliefs in any society.

Neverthess, despite our attempts to change the preconceived view of the Sar' folks still prefer to shun and condemn the breed because of what they believe they know from information/heresay that has been passed down through the generations.

Sometimes you just have to realise and accept that you cannot always change the ignorance of ignorant people and that it's more important to preserve the world we know and are more comfortable with from them.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

My Ovcharka is about 10 mnths old now and certainly the guarding instinct has been there from very young - he would sit outside our bedroom doors and wouldn't move till we got up since he was 12 weeks old which is pretty good for any pup really! 
He is your typical ovcharka I think dopey as hell unless needed - he is great with everyone, as long as he sees us happy with someone he drools all over them then goes to sleep in heap nearby, he patrols the farm and if the other dogs bark he comes and looks for us to make sure we're fine. 
He's not bad with the livestock although he doesn't like the deer as they wander into the garden and near his pile of bones he seems to collect from everywhere so he chases them back out into the field! He drools on our little foal if it comes up to chew on his tail, he snorts at the neighbors cows and is great with the cats - he lets them eat out of his bowl, but he spends most of the day playing with his best friend our little JRT Dottie who is a year and a half old - they're partners in crime!!

I wouldn't have one if I lived somewhere small or where he didn't have free range, and I wouldn't say they were a good dog for a novice owner - they need very consistent handling from small and boundaries that must be kept to mainly due to their size - I wouldn't want him to sit on my lap!! Having a 50kg pup thundering round the house in a mad 5mins is interesting to say the least - sounds like a herd of elephants! I definitly feel safer with him in the house - he only barks if there is something worth barking about and still sleeps outside our bedrooms - although one morning I did wake up to this awful smell - he was sitting on my bed, which he's not allowed on!!, staring at me and must have had his nose 2 inches from my face I think he had eaten a cat poop - anyway he needed a pee and wanted out!!!!:001_rolleyes: So I think they are a misunderstood breed and I can see why in the wrong hands like any dog really they could do some damage if trained to - they are certainly not a naturally aggressive dog - far too much effort to start with!!
Here's a few pics of Bear:
Sneaky puppy taking the cats spot!








He's about 8 months old here:


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

snoopydo said:


> They look Gorgeous And Magificant I would love to meet one...
> 
> I really can't get over the Sheer Size of this one......
> 
> ...


Is this picture for real ??????????????


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Is this picture for real ??????????????


It's set up Happy.

The woman sits further back from the Dog just as in many similar photos taken by those who want to impress upon the viewer that the animal is bigger than it really is.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

I did read that you did not approve in any way, of dog fighting, but proffering that illeducated excuse to try to claim a protected ability to be brutish, knuckle dragging, sadists urging and forcing animals to try to hurt themselves, as it is tradition, or culture, in their near subsistance and brutish lives, cannot be made and not challenged. 

Have you never heard the saying, "Evil triumphs when good people do nothing" or the many similar versions? Would you say the same if we were discussing slavery, rape, paedophilia, genital mutilation, etc?

The first thing that must be done, is start educating the young, make it clear that far from such 'tradition' being something to take pride in, to the rest of the world, they are pariahs, they would be despised and prosecuted, they are seen to be living the sort of brutish lives that were dying out in the 19th century, and that such behaviour brands them as uneducated, brutish, thuggish and primitive. Just hearing of that, any educated person is going to assume they are superstitious and/or religious, in a form only seen in medieval Europe, or the remoter reaches of America's southern states, today... and it should be howled down, wherever it occurs.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

Househens, maybe you can start another thread about these barbaric practices you feel so strongly about?
I am enjoying reading about sarplaninacs and other rare breeds, and TBH it doesnt seem like this is the right place for this platform of yours.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Househens. You're barking mad up the wrong tree and your constant barrage of repetitive words are not only irritating and tiresome but also quite unnecessary. As the Rht honourable member Ouesi has suggested, if you have an axe to grind, then by all means, please feel at liberty to start another thread but don't hijack this one for your own ends.

Whatever it is that's tormenting you, perhaps you might find something soothing or even therapeutic in the enclosed photographs?

*Zara and Oscar. 7 and 9 months respectively.*


*Oscar's Kingdom. *

*Night Watch.*



*Daybreak.*


*Winter comes.*

Failing that I suggest you try Prozac.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

Zaros, forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but what is the difference between Sarplaninacs and Ovcharkas - is there one? 
My friend has/breeds Central Asian Shepherds, and does use them as livestock guardians. She also does a lot of early socialization and her dogs are fine in crowds and out and about. I assume the same is true for the Sarplaninac & Ovchark no?
I must admit, absolutely gorgeous dogs. Way too much hair for me though! 

Oh, and what does RHT stand for?


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## Bedlingtondoodle (Oct 1, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Oh, and what does RHT stand for?


Rt in politcal terms refers to 'right' a tradition in the political system of Great Britain to refer to people appointed by the privvy council or with a lorded title.

Essentially its a compliment of status

I am guessing from the contaxt it was used in that this is what was meant :


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Bedlingtondoodle said:


> Rt in politcal terms refers to 'right' a tradition in the political system of Great Britain to refer to people appointed by the privvy council or with a lorded title.
> 
> Essentially its a compliment of status
> 
> I am guessing from the contaxt it was used in that this is what was meant :


Nuff said. :thumbup:



ouesi said:


> Zaros, forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but what is the difference between Sarplaninacs and Ovcharkas - is there one?
> My friend has/breeds Central Asian Shepherds, and does use them as livestock guardians. She also does a lot of early socialization and her dogs are fine in crowds and out and about. I assume the same is true for the Sarplaninac & Ovchark no?
> I must admit, absolutely gorgeous dogs. Way too much hair for me though!


It's not an ignorant question at all Ouesi. Ovcharka is not a breed it's a category/Title. Ovcharka is an old russian word meaning 'Guardian of the Flock'
In simple terms they're Sheep Dogs but because of their ever watchful and all seeing eye, they have been used to guard/watch over other Livestock such as Cattle and Goats and entire communities in remote areas.

Early socalisation is crucial for both the Sarplaninac and the Caucasian and the more familiar they are with the world, the less suspicious they are of it.

The wider their circle of friends and acquaintances is also of great benefit.

Zara and Oscar are fine about Town too and are well travelled. They have little to no interest in people as they pass them. They're too busy doing what Dogs do...sniff..sniff..sniff..

Usually folks make a quick dash over the road as we approach, but for the odd one or two who do show some interest, the Dogs sit quite patiently and scrutinise the strangers very closely as we talk.

Although Oscar is much more sociable than Zara stroking either Dog is often by their invitation.

Of course, it goes without saying, that those same people wouldn't easily be welcomed if they were to casually wander onto our property without first being invited and escorted by us.
Even then, the welcoming committee would still want to conduct a thorough body search.

Their conceived territory includes everything they can physically see all the way to the horizon.


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## Beau-a-saurus (Jan 26, 2011)

Zaros, as always your dogs are absolutely gorgeous :001_wub:


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2012)

Zaros said:


> the Dogs sit quite patiently and *scrutinise the strangers very closely* as we talk.


Ha ha! What an apt description. This is exactly as I would categorize my friends CAS behavior. Very calm dogs, very patient, but VERY watchful.

Thank you for the informative posts in this thread. Im fascinated by guarding instincts/genetic traits in dogs in general. We live in a remote area with several significant predators - namely coyotes. The danes are wonderful coyote deterrents, and thats part of why we have them - so the kids can wander and explore under their watchful eye. It is really interesting to me to watch them work. Its a very subtle watchfulness.

But unfortunately our danes would make terrible livestock guardians - unless they were guarding the livestock in their belly!  
Ive toyed with the idea of a LGD, years down the road, DH *really* wants goats, and Id love to keep chickens, but IDK... Among other things, I just dont know that I could keep an outside dog. Im too much of a softie!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Zaros said:


> It's set up Happy.
> 
> The woman sits further back from the Dog just as in many similar photos taken by those who want to impress upon the viewer that the animal is bigger than it really is.


I knew it wasn't real, I was just been flippant. I've seen other pictures of other dogs done like that.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Ha ha! What an apt description. This is exactly as I would categorize my friends CAS behavior. Very calm dogs, very patient, but VERY watchful.
> 
> Thank you for the informative posts in this thread. * Im fascinated by guarding instincts*/genetic traits in dogs in general. We live in a remote area with several significant predators - namely coyotes. The danes are wonderful coyote deterrents, and thats part of why we have them - so the kids can wander and explore under their watchful eye. It is really interesting to me to watch them work. Its a very subtle watchfulness.
> 
> ...


The guarding instinct over rides every other calling.

Shortly after our car was written off Zara came into season and of course Oscar, being the lad he is, followed Zara around closer than her shadow could. He was very attentive to her and never left her side.

She, being the girl she is, a bossy little madam, would let him know that his pestering was not going to get him anywhere. Ever! 
He would slink off, sulk for a little while, formulate another strategy then return to her and the scenario would play out all over again.

However, when I arrived home in the new car, Oscar instantly forgot all about Zara's tantalising and mesmerising scent and Zara completely forgot all about Oscar's special attentions. Both Dogs instinctively went into their guardian mode, protesting loudly at the unfamiliar vehicle that had just drawn up on their territory.

From experience, any vehicle that approaches the house, which is situated in a fairly remote area, is detected long before it ever reaches the property or becomes visible to the naked eye. 
The Dogs make excellent early warning systems. 

Despite them realising I was the driver they still insisted to investigate the car further. Soon satisfied that the vehicle brought me home under my terms and posed no real threat, Oscar quickly remembered Zaz's hypnotic odour and Zara was instantly reminded it was time to put Oscar in his place once again. 

Although Oscar loves his outdoors and much prefers the long Winter months to the short Summer, both Zaz and his Lord and Master are made to come in each night. 
He'll disapprove and despise us for what he considers to be the ultimate crime against him and grow a little moody, but he never fails to exact his revenge at 5am.

After waiting anxiously for the dawn to arrive his patience is just about exhausted and won't stretch to another minute.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

I had never heard of sarplaninacs before joining here and reading posts by zaros. Now i am totally in love with them. :001_wub:

I know i will never get the chance to own one (and more than probably never get to meet one) because i couldnt offer it the right life it would need and deserve.


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