# Witnessed something horrific yesterday....



## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm really sorry if this is in the wrong section but I need to rant to someone. I witnessed something so disturbing,it was horrible 

Yesterday afternoon,me and my boyfriend were taking a walk around a local country park. It's somewhere we visit at least once a week and is somewhere that's popular for people walking their dogs. There's 1 dog in particular that we see everytime,he's a rottweiler (about 4 years old) and is named Rocky. We've seen him do several tricks and tbh he's amazed me on several occasions. Yesterday was no different,we saw Rocky and his owner who proceeded to show us more dog tricks. He asked us if we'd seen him do the tricks with the trees and we said no so we carried on walking as he said he would show us. Rocky weren't on a lead which is nothing unusual as he's NEVER on it. Naturally he went about his business sniffing other passing dogs and wanting to play. He was even allowed to play with young children  What we witnessed next will haunt me forever......

Rocky came across a couple who were walking their 2 Yorkshire Terriers. The lady was carrying 1 as he was apparently not so great with people and the bloke was walking the other who seemed to be trotting along without a care in the world. Rocky decided he'd check out the 1 being walked and all of a sudden he had it pinned to the floor ragging it about  The owner of the little Yorkie managed to free his dog but there was blood pouring all over and it had half of it's face ripped off. It started shaking and then its head went limp. The lady owner was screaming and crying whilst the male owner tried to save his yorkie. I didn't know what to do. I asked them if there was anything I could do,I hugged the woman and stroked the injured dog but it was too late. It passed away in it's owners hands  As for Rockys owner......he just walked off and was heard saying that there was nothing he could do  He didn't even think to ask if the dog was ok or even say "im sorry".....he just walked off!! 

I just can't believe all that happened right in front of me. I can't stop crying for the little dog that died. I'm heartbroken


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

OMG!!!! Horrific!!!

Sorry for the little dog, sorry for the survivor (traumatised???) sorry for the owners and you :scared 
I hope he is reported and has to face the consequences. Poor dog didn't stand a chance. ::

Run free at the bridge little one. :sad::sad:


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

delca1 said:


> OMG!!!! Horrific!!!
> 
> Sorry for the little dog, sorry for the survivor (traumatised???) sorry for the owners and you :scared
> I hope he is reported and has to face the consequences. Poor dog didn't stand a chance. ::
> ...


A passer-by rang the police but all they said was there weren't anything they could do as it was dog-on-dog attack  Someone rang the RSPCA but i'm not quite sure what they said. I've never felt as shaken and teary in all my life. The poor little Yorkie didn't stand a chance against the big dog  It's a good job the other dog the couple had was being carried because god knows what would have happened. It's something I hope I never have to witness again in my entire life!!


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## cazbah (Nov 2, 2009)

It just makes me feel sick reading that, why aren't people more careful with their dogs I have a very small Jack Russell and I am quite afraid of walking him in public areas in case the same happens, just horrific :'-(


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Did anyone report it to the dog warden? Absolutely horrific thing to see, poor little dog.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_OMG !!! those poor people,to see their little dog killed in front of their own eyes,, i really hope the owner of the dog that did this is punished, how on earth could he just walk away !!!!!! that poor little dog wouldnt stand a chance with a dog that size. _


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

How awful the poor little dog and his owners, it just goes to show how a dog can change, I feel so sorry for the owners of the little dog, just a nightmare for all of you. I can see why the owner of Rocky moved out of the way it would just have made things worse been as they was a another small dog there, he couldn't have done anything. I hope when he walks his dog in the future he is kept on a lead. He could have left a phone number or an address.

So sad, RIP little dog.


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## katie200 (May 11, 2009)

((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))) Rip little dog


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> Did anyone report it to the dog warden? Absolutely horrific thing to see, poor little dog.


Not sure. I know the police and RSPCA were called but don't know about anyone else  I didn't even think at the time or I would have called them. I was in shock 



colliemerles said:


> _OMG !!! those poor people,to see their little dog killed in front of their own eyes,, i really hope the owner of the dog that did this is punished, how on earth could he just walk away !!!!!! that poor little dog wouldnt stand a chance with a dog that size. _


The little Yorkie looked to be a miniature 1 so was really small. Poor little mite stood no chance at all against a big dog. Unfortunately I don't think Rockys owner will be punished but he bloody should be 



Happy Paws said:


> How awful the poor little dog and his owners, it just goes to show how a dog can change, I feel so sorry for the owners of the little dog, just a nightmare for all of you. I can see why the owner of Rocky moved out of the way it would just have made things worse been as they was a another small dog there, he couldn't have done anything. I hope when he walks his dog in the future he is kept on a lead. He could have left a phone number or an address.
> 
> So sad, RIP little dog.


I'm amazed at how Rocky changed because normally he is such an amazing and friendly dog. I've seen him play with children so had no reason to believe that he'd be capable of such an attack. I know his owner couldn't do anything but he never even asked how the other dog was (even tho it was pretty obvious) and he never even said sorry


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

This is my neighbours little dog Tinkabell.She had her leg nearly ripped off last year by a pit bull type even though she was on a lead.It cost £800 vet fees to amputate,and the neighbour never got a penny.Police didn't want to know,which I think is disgusting,law or no law.

The little dog healed well and can really tear round the garden on her three legs.
Trouble was she was terrified of every dog she came across...except one...My Benji.He spent hours at the fence waiting for her to come into the garden every day...still does.  And very slowly she came to accept him.
Her owner now can lift her up to Benji to touch noses now...but she's still wary of other dogs.

Not a very good picture because the little devil belts round the garden like a dog possessed.










Benji at the fence.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I would of gone ape s**t at Rockys owners had i been there 

What a horrible thing to witness, until more people start taking out privite prosecutions against these owners for damage to their property (  ) then they will continue not to give a s**t :mad2:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Well I hope that you have reported this to the dog warden and the police and pass on the name and address of the Rottie owner to the owners of the dead dog so they can pursue this despicable, negligent, poor excuse of an owner for compensation and a civil case.


If you do not know the name and address of this owner, as he is local and you know the name and breed of the dog, it must be registered with a vet in the area.

It is absolutely inexcusable and totally unacceptable to behave in this manner.

WHY is this dog allowed to approach other dogs uninvited? 

It needs to be on a lead.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

What an awful thing to witness.

RIP little Yorkie.


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

This story has really upset me and brought back some horrible memories of my own. 

My darling terrier (who lived to a grand age of 16 now RIP through natural causes) used to love his walk in the woods. A chap who lived backing onto the woods (as we do) used to just let his badly behaved Dalmatian to roam the woods, he would have a go at everything he saw.

I'd always pick up Henry when I saw him. This one day I picked up Henry and he came at me instead, his paws were on my shoulders and he was snarling at me, I had a fleece on at the time and I wrapped Henry in my fleece, terrified that this dog would bite me. I complained to the owner afterwards (thankfully with a firm kick, something I would never normally do, he left us both unharmed) the owner found it funny.

I never walked Henry in the woods again, which we both missed, but it was not worth the risk.


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## nmjon (Aug 5, 2012)

you poor thing it must of shaken you,those poor people having their darling dog attacked so brutally.:frown:
my mum has a border terrier. when he was a puppy a English bull terrier attack him and shook him like a rag. He survived(thank goodness) he is 9 now and still terrified of bigger dogs. 
The dog is not to blame the owner should have such a big dog on a lead .
I have owned 3 staffy's over the years and all have had a lovely gentle personality,but as a responsible dog owner I have always kept the on a lead when walking them as at the end of the day they are animals with animal instincts and can not be blamed for this.


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> I would of gone ape s**t at Rockys owners had i been there
> 
> What a horrible thing to witness, until more people start taking out privite prosecutions against these owners for damage to their property (  ) then they will continue not to give a s**t :mad2:


I still can't get the image of the whole attack out of my head. It's horrible. Really wish I could have done more for it but it pretty much died within a few minutes  Just seeing the blood pouring from it and seeing it shake has really shaken me up.



smokeybear said:


> Well I hope that you have reported this to the dog warden and the police and pass on the name and address of the Rottie owner to the owners of the dead dog so they can pursue this despicable, negligent, poor excuse of an owner for compensation and a civil case.
> 
> If you do not know the name and address of this owner, as he is local and you know the name and breed of the dog, it must be registered with a vet in the area.
> 
> ...


Another passer-by stopped and rang the police but as it was a dog-on-dog attack they said there was nothing they could do  Really not sure if anyone rang the dog warden. I didn't think at the time  I was in shock and was trying to help calm the owners  Unfortunately I don't know any details of the owner/dog apart from he walks the dog there regularly and the dog is a rottweiler named Rocky. I told the passer-by people everything I knew  I don't know why Rocky was allowed to approach other dogs uninvited but it's wrong!! If i'm out walking my 2 dogs I don't like them approaching others because although I know my 2 only want to play,other dogs may not be the same.



Space Chick said:


> This story has really upset me and brought back some horrible memories of my own.
> 
> My darling terrier (who lived to a grand age of 16 now RIP through natural causes) used to love his walk in the woods. A chap who lived backing onto the woods (as we do) used to just let his badly behaved Dalmatian to roam the woods, he would have a go at everything he saw.
> 
> ...


Really sorry for upsetting you or anyone else. That weren't my intention  I just needed to vent somewhere to someone as it's really saddened me that I had to witness something so horrific.

RIP to your little Henry xx


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

nmjon said:


> you poor thing it must of shaken you,those poor people having their darling dog attacked so brutally.:frown:
> my mum has a border terrier. when he was a puppy a English bull terrier attack him and shook him like a rag. He survived(thank goodness) he is 9 now and still terrified of bigger dogs.
> The dog is not to blame the owner should have such a big dog on a lead .
> I have owned 3 staffy's over the years and all have had a lovely gentle personality,but as a responsible dog owner I have always kept the on a lead when walking them as at the end of the day they are animals with animal instincts and can not be blamed for this.


Bloody hell your mums dog did well to survive  I'm not surprised he is scared of bigger dogs tho. Poor little mite  I understand a dogs natural instinct is to use fight as their natural defence mechanism. I don't blame the dog either,I blame the owner. He should have kept his dog on a lead and away from other dogs unless he knew them. I don't agree with a dog being let off their lead in such public places.


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## DobermannZoe (Mar 3, 2012)

Holy crap that is bloody awful. Id be shaken aswell if I was there, for people with larger dogs like me just reminds you doesnt it of what can happen and these little dogs havent got a chance. 
And as for that owner, well that is just disgusting. Im shocked, No sorry?! And police wont do nothing??! To me its like, he should of paid compensation?! Oh jesus, if you ever see that dog out again Id phone who ever and let them know if hes offlead of not wearing a muzzle.
Oh god im gettin chills here


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

DobermannZoe said:


> Holy crap that is bloody awful. Id be shaken aswell if I was there, for people with larger dogs like me just reminds you doesnt it of what can happen and these little dogs havent got a chance.
> And as for that owner, well that is just disgusting. Im shocked, No sorry?! And police wont do nothing??! To me its like, he should of paid compensation?! Oh jesus, if you ever see that dog out again Id phone who ever and let them know if hes offlead of not wearing a muzzle.
> Oh god im gettin chills here


Nope he didn't even stop to say sorry. He walked away with Rocky still off lead and just shrugged his shoulders and said "nothing i can do". Would it be worth phoning the dog warden or whoever if I see the dog again?? He's never on a lead and has always been fine around other people. However,if he's turned on a small dog,what's to say a child or adult wont be next?!


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

I would make sure your dog warden knows. Even if nothing can be done it can be kept on file in case the dog does anything else. Hope you are feeling a little better now xxx


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

xgemma86x said:


> Nope he didn't even stop to say sorry. He walked away with Rocky still off lead and just shrugged his shoulders and said "nothing i can do". Would it be worth phoning the dog warden or whoever if I see the dog again?? He's never on a lead and has always been fine around other people. However,if he's turned on a small dog,what's to say a child or adult wont be next?!


This need to be reported to the dog warden regardless and please don't wait till you see the dog again. 
I don't know why people think the RSPCA can do anything, they can't. And the police don't tend to act on dog on dog aggression. BUT a dog warden is responsible for dogs in the area and they are the people that it needs reporting to.

I would be absolutely livid if I saw an owner just walking off while shrugging shoulders and I would do all I could to ensure they didn't get away with it.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

OMG, how awful.. that is my worst nightmare and I have to admit to being very nervous of every big dog I see when walking my lot....even though I try not to transmit my fears to the dogs.
I cant imagine how the poor owners will get over something like that. That Rottie owner needs to be banned from the park if he is so irresponsible IMO!
Even if his dog is completely safe with children the fact it could savagely kill a small dog means it could scar a child (or adult) for life emotionally if not physically.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

That is sick beyond belief. That poor, poor little dog and its owners; I cannot imagine how they are feeling. 

The Rottweiler should destroyed and the owner prosecuted and banned from keeping animals. There is simply no excuse for owning such an aggressive animal and for the owner to take no responsibility.

This is exactly I avoid all Rottweilers, Bull breeds and other such types. I don't care if I offend the owners, I have too many run ins with such breeds and I am not risking my dogs near them.

I am just sick about hearing attacks from these types of dogs.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

WeimyLady said:


> This is exactly I avoid all Rottweilers, Bull breeds and other such types. I don't care if I offend the owners, I have too many run ins with such breeds and I am not risking my dogs near them.
> .


I have to admit that I am becoming more and more cautious of bigger breeds when I am walking my dogs, partly due to too many bad owners and partly due to hearing stories like this!
Certain breeds can do so much damage in such a small amount of time that I would rather be thought of as over protective and risk offending someone then lose a furkid.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> I have to admit that I am becoming more and more cautious of bigger breeds when I am walking my dogs, partly due to too many bad owners and partly due to hearing stories like this!
> Certain breeds can do so much damage in such a small amount of time that I would rather be thought of as over protective and risk offending someone then lose a furkid.


Absolutely.

You don't hear of many Golden Retrievers ripping apart a small dogs.

There is so much namby pamby "I won't mention the breed" and "deed not breed" mantras quoted on dog forums but at the end of the day, certain breeds ARE more responsible for attacks on other dogs and people.

I expect we will end up like parts of Europe where those breeds will have to be microchipped, leashed and muzzled when out. I would be all for it TBH.


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## canine (Feb 23, 2012)

That is my worse nightmare. I do worry about the little dogs that I take out as there are so many large dogs where we go but I will always ask if their canine is dog friendly before I let any approach. The vast majority of dog owners just want to enjoy their walk and get to know other dogs and owners. Dino does have a good group of friends. His best friend is Blue a rotti/lab and is also very friendly with two Newfies, a female Rottie and three wonderful Pits. Not all big dogs are vicious. 

Though I couldn't believe it last week when a local person asked me to look after their large dog for a week (I pet sit). I made my excuses as this very same dog had lifted my wee dog by the back of the neck last summer in the park. His response at the time was "oh he must have been trying to take (name)'s food". There was junk food lying about four feet away. He then said "sure he didn't REALLY bite him" :mad2: My wee dog is terrified of his dog and he was SERIOUSLY disappointed I couldn't dog sit as his dog is soooo friendly.  Yeah like I'd trust that dog with my Yorkie and cats. 

I'm so sorry for that poor couple and their surviving dog as it will probably be badly affected by what happened. Poor you having to see such an horrific sight. I really don't know what to say that will comfort you but I hope talking about it to fellow dog lovers on here will help.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

I did start a thread not long ago titled 'Protection from Attack' to share ideas with other members on how to save your dog in a situation like this. Unfortunately, I lost interest because of the many moronic replies suggesting that it never happens, or 'your' dog must have done something to provoke an attack etc.

It just sickens me to read stuff like this - because it DOES bloody happen! And people just dont know what to do and how to save their dog.

I now carry a small tin of hair spray with me, and if one of my dogs was attacked like this, I would not hesitate in spraying the attacking dog in its eyes. It was only today that whilst out walking, one of the regular fellow dog walkers advised me to avoid the top field as some guy had a pit bull off lead.

I cannot believe the disgusting behaviour of this owner who shrugged his shoulders and walked off!!! Total b******d!!!! My advice would be to get the dog warden involved to find his address. Then file a country court action which costs about £60, and you can do it online and dont need a solicitor. I know money wont bring the dog back, but it would give me great satisfaction to hit this guys wallet!

I would also make an official complaint to an Inspector at the police station for not acting on this complaint.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2012)

This is awful, really shocked me. I cannot believe the owner just walked away? 

If Dex even nipped another dog (he hasn't but if he ever did) I would be apologising like mad and would feel absolutely awful! I find it disgraceful the owner just buggered off. That poor yorkie. 

I agree with some other posters who said they'd go ape s*** if they were there, I would too!


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## francesandjon (Jun 3, 2009)

Have the country park management been informed??

They might be interested to know whats happened and may be able to put some restrictions in place (although difficult to enforce) such as the dog in question must be on the lead at all times, or even banned from going there. I know that won't stop it happening again, but at least you will know that it won't be around there.

RIP little dog x


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

oh my gosh, that must've been horrific 

I know it's no excuse, but maybe Rocky's owner was in shock? What is Rocky normally like with other dogs, have you ever seen him?

It seems odd for a dog that is 'well trained' and usually friendly to attack like that - you'd think if the owner had put that much effort into training tricks, you'd think the dog would be better behaved in general.

I hope something can be done, are you gonna approach Rocky and his owner if you see them again? I'd maybe just go over and ask if they were alright and just try to get some sort of explanation.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

duplicate post


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

WeimyLady said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> *You don't hear of many Golden Retrievers ripping apart a small dogs.*
> There is so much namby pamby "I won't mention the breed" and "deed not breed" mantras quoted on dog forums but at the end of the day, certain breeds ARE more responsible for attacks on other dogs and people.
> ...


Well ANY breed can and do rip up dogs and people.

There was the Weimaraner for example that killed a terrier in Loughborough last year and the Weimaraner that bit the postie.

_A dog owner has been ordered to keep their pet under control after it attacked and killed a Yorkshire terrier in a Biggin Hill park.

Bromley Council secured a control order from Bromley Magistrates' Court after an incident in the recreation ground in August.

The six-year-old terrier was being taken for a walk when he was attacked and killed by one of a pair of Weimaraners.

Following council and police investigations, magistrates ordered the owner of the Weimaraner to keep the pet dog on a lead and muzzled at all times while in a public place.

Executive councillor for environment Cllr Colin Smith said: "Although incidents like this are infrequent, as the vast majority of dog owners do behave responsibly, there has been a growing trend of attacks like this that have to be cracked down on.

This was a seriously upsetting incident and there have been similar cases recently. We need to remind all dog owners of their duty to control their animals.

It's simply not right or fair that other people's loved pets are being killed in this way."

The order was made under section 2 of the Dog Act 1871, which gives courts the power to make owners keep pets muzzled and on leads in public places. In extreme cases, the court can order that the dog be destroyed._

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-18824993

_A Wiltshire postman has undergone extensive surgery to regain the use of his hand after being attacked by a dog.

Paul Ratcliffe was delivering letters to a farm near Malmesbury when he was attacked by a Weimaraner dog owned by a police officer.

Nerves in his thumb were severed in the attack, affecting the use of his hand.

Wiltshire Police said the officer had been given a letter of warning but no further action would be taken as it was a civil matter.

Mr Ratcliffe, from Sherston, said he was delivering a letter to a farm in Charlton when the dog "grabbed" him.

'I was shocked'

"I was just walking past the dog and the next thing it had its jaws locked around my hand," he said.

"I had to get my hand back out of its jaws, which it wasn't keen to let go of, which then caused quite a lot of damage.

"And when I ran it under the tap, I was shocked by how bad it was - that's when my arm started shaking."

Mr Ratcliffe had to undergo two hours of surgery to graft nerves from his arm into his hand to try to restore the use of his hand.

He has been signed off sick by doctors for the next four weeks but said he would not be pressing charges against the dog's owner.

'4,000 animal attacks'

A spokeswoman for Royal Mail said there were about 4,000 animal attacks a year on Royal Mail staff and its main aim was "to prevent attacks".

"If we feel that there is a risk from a dog, or any other animal, at an individual address, we are committed to working with the customer to agree simple steps to ensure that we can deliver the mail safely," she said.

"And we also regularly communicate with our people about the dangers of dog attacks and provide advice to postmen and women on techniques to minimise harm in the event of an attack."

A Wiltshire Police spokesman said the officer concerned had been given a letter of warning but the force would not be taking further action as it was a civil matter._

So let us not kid ourselves, dogs of all breeds are equipped with 42 lethal weapons and often use them.

These are just two examples of why many people choose to avoid Weimaraners.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Well ANY breed can and do rip up dogs and people.
> 
> There was the Weimaraner for example that killed a terrier in Loughborough last year and the Weimaraner that bit the postie.
> 
> ...


And that the police CAN act on dog on dog aggression.


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

xgemma86x said:


> Really sorry for upsetting you or anyone else. That weren't my intention  I just needed to vent somewhere to someone as it's really saddened me that I had to witness something so horrific.
> 
> RIP to your little Henry xx


Don't feel bad for upsetting me! I can appreciate how horrendous a situation it must have been for you.

Sending supportive hugs xx

I think what is most worrying is the fact that this was viewed as a friendly dog.

I have know several Rotweillers and Dobermans in my time which have been very well behaved and loving dogs.

I also know of equally as many small dogs (yorkshire terriers, corgis etc) that have been vicious.

I don't think it is fair to fear big dogs, yeah they have the potential do more damage if they do "turn" but there are many loving and affectionate big dogs out there.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Surely the issue here is the need for dog owners to be responsible and to train and control their animals properly. It would seem the fellow with the dog that attacked the other dog failed miserably on all three counts...


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> And that the police CAN act on dog on dog aggression.


Can and do if you request their involvement in the right way.

I persuaded the Greater Manchester Police force to take action after a dog attacked my neighbour's cat. The words which spurred them into action after months of them saying they couldn't get involved were something like:

"I'd like an incident number please, so that when this dog does something like this again I can prove to the local press that I had reported the problem to you".

An officer called round to see me on the same day, assuring me that the owners would be warned that they could be prosecuted under the dangerous dogs act.

I'm really sorry you have seen this, OP, so distressing, and the owners must be devastated to lose their dog this way. If you do take it up with the police and wardens, save yourself months of beating your head against a brick wall and mention the local press and request an incident number. They can act on dog on other pets attacks, but they are likely to try to tell you they can't.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Well done, and i couldn't agree more.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Space Chick said:


> I don't think it is fair to fear big dogs, yeah they have the potential do more damage if they do "turn" but there are many loving and affectionate big dogs out there.


This is true but unfortunately when it comes to a large powerful breed versus a small weaker breed you wont get a second chance if things go badly. Id rather be a little bit prejudice and be wrong then be too trusting and have it be the last mistake I make for my dog.
I hope someone reports this dog and the owner is made to control it in public.


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

Dog Incident at Newmillerdam Country Park | West Yorkshire Police

Seems the police are involved now thank god!! They are appealing for witnesses of the incident.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> Surely the issue here is the need for dog owners to be responsible and to train and control their animals properly. It would seem the fellow with the dog that attacked the other dog failed miserably on all three counts...


I don't think you can say that, how ever well trained a dog is no one can guarantee that it will always do what is asked of it.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

xgemma86x said:


> Dog Incident at Newmillerdam Country Park | West Yorkshire Police
> 
> Seems the police are involved now thank god!! They are appealing for witnesses of the incident.


That sounds hopeful then, they wouldn't be trying to gather witnesses if they weren't intending on taking action 

Have you seen anything of the Rottie and his owner?


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

Tigerneko said:


> That sounds hopeful then, they wouldn't be trying to gather witnesses if they weren't intending on taking action
> 
> Have you seen anything of the Rottie and his owner?


Well I rang the police yesterday to say I witnessed it. I'm still waiting for a call back.

Not seen the Rottie or his owner since thank goodness.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

One of the reasons I posted the Weimaraner killing terrier incident is to demonstrate that action can be and is taken if and when people pursue it.

Perhaps people who continually post that no action will be taken if it is dog on dog will realise that this is not the truth?


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> One of the reasons I posted the Weimaraner killing terrier incident is to demonstrate that action can be and is taken if and when people pursue it.
> 
> Perhaps people who continually post that no action will be taken if it is dog on dog will realise that this is not the truth?


I see that comment is aimed at me. I was only repeating what I was told by the passer by that rang the police.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

xgemma86x said:


> I see that comment is aimed at me. I was only repeating what I was told by the passer by that rang the police.


Sorry to burst your bubble, it is not aimed at any ONE person in particular. 

These comments have been made by several people on several threads.


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, it is not aimed at any ONE person in particular.
> 
> These comments have been made by several people on several threads.


Was there really any need? :-/


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

xgemma86x said:


> Was there really any need? :-/


You took the words right out of my mouth.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Im so glad this incident is being taken seriously by the police. 

As a dog owner, I think you instinctively know what your dog is capable of! With regards to this Rottie, I doubt that this was the first sign of aggression towards another dog, and I am pretty sure that the owner will have known that his dog was potentially dangerousl. However, some owners think it is their 'god given right' to walk such dogs off lead. 

I do hope the owners will pursue for compensation, because sometimes, the only thing that hurts these irresponsible owners is when it hits their wallet!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

To be fair to the Rottie owner it may not ever have shown signs of aggression before, it may merely have been exhibiting "predatory drift" and seen the dog as dinner.

Of course that is irrelevant to the other dog and its owner, the outcome is the same.

This is one reason why owners of large dogs MUST be aware that this possibility exists and why I do not blame owners of small dogs for being protective.

Predatory Drift is a sudden, and drastic change in a dog's demeanour that is characterised by behaviours associated with hunting small prey. 

The term is usually used to describe a medium - large dog which has suddenly and uncharacteristically targeted a smaller dog as prey (dinner). 

Predatory Drift is NOT aggression, but it can mean injury or death for small dogs (or puppies).

Predatory Drift happens when the larger dog's instinct to hunt are triggered when play escalates or gets too much like the real thing (an out of control chase game). It can occur when a small dog/puppy gets scared or injured and squeals or wriggles in a way that makes them look like prey, It can happen just because the size difference says, "You are comparatively bite-sized, or move like something that is bite-sized, and I am a canine predator." 

The most alarming fact about Predatory Drift is that it can happen even with well-behaved, well-socialised dogs who play well and often with no aggression.
Dogs which are triggered into predatory drift, may never have been in a dog fight, and be generally obedient. This is no protection against predatory drift. It is not a &#8220;good dog/bad dog&#8221; problem. 

Predatory Drift is not about how brave, strong, feisty, or fearless the small dog acts. Or how well your large dog plays and listens to you, or even how many times they have met, played with or been around a small dog.

Predatory Drift can even happen between two dogs that know each other well and have lived, played, and or known each other for years. In the right situation, a sudden shift happens and the predatory sequence (like dominoes falling) is triggered and completed with lightening fast speed.

While it is not a problem seen every day, all it takes is the slightest trigger -an injury, a fight, a response to something startling or scary. Predatory Drift is a SIZE MATTER! It usually involves a grab and shake, which instantly breaks the small dog's neck. There is no time to react. This is not a fight, it does not escalate. There is a trigger and then it is over.

What can we do about it?

Exercise particular care if you have a large dog interacting with a very much smaller one (including a puppy) and be aware that when you have 2+ dogs they often &#8220;pack up&#8221; and are more susceptible to the phenomenon. If you have a dog with high prey drive in the mix then the risks increase.

It is worth remembering that is sometimes easier to label dogs as x, y or z than to educate ourselves about dog behaviour! 

So the dog owner may not have been irresponsible per se (although is actions AFTER his dog killed the other one definitely were)


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

And thats the biggest load of tosh Ive ever read!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> And thats the biggest load of tosh Ive ever read!


Unfortunately that statement not only demonstrates how little understanding you have of dog behaviour (but that is not a thing to be derided as nobody knows everything); however what is worse is that it demonstrates a closed mind.

Closed minds, do not learn anything.

Minds, like parachutes, only work when open.

But I respect your personal choice not to improve your knowledge. 

I will repeat what I said in the previous post.

*It is worth remembering that is sometimes easier to label dogs as x, y or z than to educate ourselves about dog behaviour! *


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> To be fair to the Rottie owner it may not ever have shown signs of aggression before, it may merely have been exhibiting "predatory drift" and seen the dog as dinner.


Ive never heard of 'predatory drift' before  thank you for the information on it 

I think as dogs are animals we can never totally know what they will do or how they will react to certain situations (even if we have a good idea they can still donthings out of charactor etc) but as their owners i think how WE react that can make a big difference to the situation.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> And thats the biggest load of tosh Ive ever read!


Why do you say that?


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Because the article claims its not aggression! "the little dog doesnt fight back".... course it doesnt, it doesnt even get a chance!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm so sorry you had to winess such a thing, poor dog & poor owners



WeimyLady said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> *You don't hear of many Golden Retrievers ripping apart a small dogs.*
> 
> ...


No but I know of a labrador retriever who 2 years ago ripped a chunk out of my German Shepherd & another lab which tried to do the same to my Rottweiler cross when he was on lead, minding his own business. So don't stereotype all these breeds please, some of us ARE responsible owners so it _is_ a case of 'deed not breed'.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As a footnote, you can find this "load of tosh" on a DVD by Ian Dunbar, the title of which escapes me at the moment.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Because the article claims its not aggression! "the little dog doesnt fight back".... course it doesnt, it doesnt even get a chance!


It is NOT aggression, it is predatory ie hunting behaviour.

Or do you believe that hunting for food is "aggression"?


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Did it eat the little dog?????


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Because the article claims its not aggression! "the little dog doesnt fight back".... course it doesnt, it doesnt even get a chance!


Its actually quite well documented on several sites if you google it


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> No but I know of a labrador retriever who 2 years ago ripped a chunk out of my German Shepherd & another lab which tried to do the same to my Rottweiler cross when he was on lead, minding his own business. So don't stereotype all these breeds please, some of us ARE responsible owners so it _is_ a case of 'deed not breed'.


It was a lab who attacked Mouse and punctured his neck. He had a bad infection and needed anti biotics. Any breed can attack and cause damage.


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## dobermummy (Apr 4, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Did it eat the little dog?????


It didnt get chance too. Who knows if they had been left?!?


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Its actually quite well documented on several sites if you google it


Maybe! But Im just not buying into it. A dog that snaps another dogs neck, then just trots off - cant see it having anything to do with hunting.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Maybe! But Im just not buying into it. A dog that snaps another dogs neck, then just trots off - cant see it having anything to do with hunting.


As a matter of interest, are you a member of the Flat Earth Society?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

For those who ARE interested in this phenomenon and would like to learn more:

Predation in Family Dogs lecture DVD with Jean Donaldson

DVD by Jean Donaldson


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Thank you for posting this as I have a yorkie and sometimes walk there. Hope they get prosecuted for it. To walk off is appalling.


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

Jobeth said:


> Thank you for posting this as I have a yorkie and sometimes walk there. Hope they get prosecuted for it. To walk off is appalling.


You'll probs know which Rottweiler it was then because it's there regularly.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2012)

What would you do with the rotweiler after that attack if it was your dog?

Would you muzzul it in public or PTS because of unpredicatability? 

Im not sure what i would do? I no i no................you wouldnt let your dog get to this................just humour me


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

So if we go along with the predatory drift theory. ......no small dog is safe around any medium or large dog.......even if its usually a complete sweetheart.......because it could suddenly turn into a demon and start ragging small dogs etc.

If thats the case then perhaps medium to large dogs shouldnt be allowed off lead because they could start attacking small breeds as if they are prey........you cant have your cake and eat it by saying that your large breed dog is reliably safe to allow off lead to interact with society in general and then in the next breath excuse a dog killing another by giving the act the PD label. If PD is real then all small dogs are at risk from EVERY medium to large breed.

*waits for Smokey to be rude and abusive.........again*


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

chichi said:


> So if we go along with the predatory drift theory. ......no small dog is safe around any medium or large dog.......even if its usually a complete sweetheart.......because it could suddenly turn into a demon and start ragging small dogs etc.
> 
> If thats the case then perhaps medium to large dogs shouldnt be allowed off lead because they could start attacking small breeds as if they are prey........you cant have your cake and eat it by saying that your large breed dog is reliably safe to allow off lead to interact with society in general and then in the next breath excuse a dog killing another by giving the act the PD label. If PD is real then all small dogs are at risk from EVERY medium to large breed.
> 
> *waits for Smokey to be rude and abusive.........again*


Im sure you wont have to wait long 

Smokey is always the first to defend any attacking dog, claiming it doesnt happen, or the dog attacked must have provoked - but doesnt actually say this to the OP on threads where dogs have been attacked - pretty inconsistent.

I cant see how any owned, well fed dog, would suddenly see another dog as prey. Dogs are either aggressive to other dogs, or they arent! And, I have NEVER heard of an attacking dog then trying to eat the dog its killed.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I agree and am surprised that so many members liked Smokeys post about PD but yet havent answered my query as to how any medium to large breed is safe off lead if the sweetest little honey pie can suddenly turn into a terrier eating predator. Ive owned toys all my life and watch bigger dogs body language as to whether I need to grab my little ones from the ground. No big dogs have ever come up all waggy and turned into a beast as yet. I can usually tell the sweeties from the nasties from across a field.......body language.


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## xXhayleyroxX (Apr 18, 2008)

Something similar happened here and the police got involved and the dog got put down. 
The police should get involved tbh.... once my dogs attacked a cat *didn't hurt it at all by the way* and the police came round our house.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Im sure you wont have to wait long
> 
> *Smokey is always the first to defend any attacking dog, claiming it doesnt happen, or the dog attacked must have provoked *- but doesnt actually say this to the OP on threads where dogs have been attacked - pretty inconsistent.
> 
> I cant see how any owned, well fed dog, would suddenly see another dog as prey. Dogs are either aggressive to other dogs, or they arent! And, I have NEVER heard of an attacking dog then trying to eat the dog its killed.


Really?!

Please point me to the posts where I have said this?

The fact that YOU cannot "see it" does not mean ipso facto that it does not occur.

You are obviously completely ignorant about the predatory sequence in dogs and how it has been genetically modified by man to suit his own ends so that the animal is NOT killed and consumed.

Ie Sheepdogs - when sheepdogs round up flocks this is part of a PREDATORY SEQUENCE

Ie Gundogs - when gundogs mark and retrieve shot game to hand this is part of a PREDATORY sequence

In neither example does the dog consume the prey, but in BOTH examples they are using the PREDATORY behaviour for our benefit.

Educate yourself, read Burch and Baily, Scott and Fuller, Coppinger and stop advertising your ignorance so publicly, or do you REALLY think everyone else is wrong and you are right?

If so, please let me know when and where your next seminar is being given and/or your book is being published, I am sure the world of canine behaviourists and trainers will be agog to read your findings which surpass the findings of the scientific community.

:laugh::biggrin::smile5:


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I am really interested in this thread as I have always owned large dogs never had a problem with other owners or there dogs (well not major)since I adopted Harry a 7 kg Tibetan who loves all dogs the amount of people with large dogs that have said there's will be fine with my Border Collies but "he or she hates small dogs"surley all dogs smell of dog to other dogs and not of some other prey


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

_Read this from the ASPCA (I am sure you think they write a load of tosh too) 

*As it says, dogs do not hunt because they are hungry..........................*_

*Predatory Behavior in Dogs*

In their evolutionary past, dogs were predators. This may be a disturbing realization to pet parents, but almost every dog has a natural tendency toward some predatory behavior. The dog's closest living relative, the wolf, is a highly accomplished predator capable of hunting in packs to bring down large prey such as deer, elk and moose. The domestic dog has changed through domestication and become a fairly ineffective predator, but some individuals can still be successful hunters. In fact, most dog breeds have been selectively bred by humans to exhibit certain parts of the predatory sequence of behaviors. The complete predatory sequence is eye, stalk, chase, grab-bite, kill-bite, dissect and consume. Greyhounds and other sight hounds have been bred to excel in the chase part of the sequence. The scent hounds, such as beagles and basset hounds, are good at pursuing their quarry's scent trails. Pointing and flushing breeds specialize in stalking and flushing birds. Herding breeds are also accomplished chasers and stalkers, but they concentrate their efforts on controlling the movements of livestock. Terriers outrival other breeds in their ability to capture and kill unwanted vermin, like mice and rats. Given that we have specifically capitalized on dogs' hunting abilities, it's not surprising that our pampered pets occasionally demonstrate their genetic legacy.

Dogs are cursorial predators, meaning that they chase down their prey. The dog's visual system is highly attuned to detecting movement. The slightest motion often triggers a dog to give chase. High-pitched squealing sounds, like those a prey animal makes when frightened or injured, can also trigger an attack. If a dog is fast enough to catch her prey, she'll usually grab and shake it. *Some dogs lose interest once a prey animal stops moving-which is why opossums, whose defensive response is to play dead, often survive dog attacks. But many dogs will play with the bodies of animals they catch. Some dogs even consume their prey*.

Just about any small mammal can trigger a predatory response in dogs: squirrels, rabbits, mice, rats, groundhogs, racoons, ground squirrels, skunks, porcupines and, unfortunately, cats. Dogs who live peacefully with cats sometimes still prey on unfamiliar cats, particularly if the cats are outdoors and moving. Cats who run from dogs are at highest risk. A dog will sometimes back down if a prey animal stops retreating and threatens to attack. Dogs will also chase ungulates, such as deer and antelope, but they're unlikely to pose a threat to these animals if hunting alone. Packs of dogs, however, have reportedly caught and killed deer, pronghorn antelope and livestock, including cattle, sheep and goats. Dogs don't hunt because they're hungry. Their motivation for hunting is separate from their motivation to eat. Sadly, this means that even a single dog in a chicken house can wreak havoc on the defenseless birds. Likewise, a group of dogs can do serious damage to a herd of sheep or goats, killing large numbers of animals. In fact, dogs in groups will often participate in what's called socially facilitated predation-one dog starts killing and they all join in.

*In rare cases, dogs prey on other dogs. Small breeds are most at risk because they often run away or squeal when frightened, which makes them look, move and sound like dogs' natural prey*.

ASPCA - Virtual Pet Behaviorist - Predatory Behavior in Dogs


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

suewhite said:


> I am really interested in this thread as I have always owned large dogs never had a problem with other owners or there dogs (well not major)since I adopted Harry a 7 kg Tibetan who loves all dogs the amount of people with large dogs that have said there's will be fine with my Border Collies but "he or she hates small dogs"surley all dogs smell of dog to other dogs and not of some other prey


The predatory response is not triggered by smell but by movement and sound.

Why do so many collies have issues with items with wheels? Do they smell like prey?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

chichi said:


> So if we go along with the predatory drift theory. ......no small dog is safe around any medium or large dog.......even if its usually a complete sweetheart.......because it could suddenly turn into a demon and start ragging small dogs etc.
> 
> If thats the case then perhaps medium to large dogs shouldnt be allowed off lead because they could start attacking small breeds as if they are prey........you cant have your cake and eat it by saying that your large breed dog is reliably safe to allow off lead to interact with society in general and then in the next breath excuse a dog killing another by giving the act the PD label. If PD is real then all small dogs are at risk from EVERY medium to large breed.


Nothing in life is risk free, when you are dog walking you make dynamic risk assessments by determining whether or not a hazard exists, and how likely it is to relate to you and if so the severity of the outcome.

Not sure who has stated they want their cake and eat it too?

When I had two dogs I never let BOTH off the lead to interract with small dogs as I am fully aware of the risks, the same applies if I have a puppy, I do not allow multiple dogs to greet the puppy.

It really is basic common and dog sense, to me at any rate. 

Nothing in life is risk free


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Soooooo then from all the text do we come to the conclusion that medium to large dogs are capable of turning from cupcakes to predators at the sight of a small moving dog. Therefore no small dog is safe around medium to large breeds.....regardless of temperament or training. Offlead walking is very risky for small dogs in the vicinity
......no?

I repeat....if PD is a major possibility in med to large dogs.....should they all be kept on lead to prevent attack or death to small dogs......?

Hear all the deed not breed stuff and agree with it to a large extent but this theory would make a laughing stock of that. .......saying that med to large breeds are all capable of seriously hurting a dog or even killing it doesnt really help people understand that not all breeds are dangerous. Cant have cake and eat it


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Posts crossed with Smokey.....

So yes you agree that all dogs are likley to be aggressive to the point of killing another dog regardless of training.

The deed not breed activists will really be pleased to hear that....... *Cough*


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

chichi said:


> Posts crossed with Smokey.....
> 
> So yes you agree that all dogs are likley to be aggressive to the point of killing another dog regardless of training.
> 
> The deed not breed activists will really be pleased to hear that....... *Cough*


Funny, I cannot see anywhere in my post where I wrote the above words, perhaps you could point them out to me?  

Bit more education for you

Predatory Behavior Primer | Prairie Dog Daycare


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

chichi said:


> Soooooo then from all the text do we come to the conclusion that medium to large dogs are capable of turning from cupcakes to predators at the sight of a small moving dog. Therefore no small dog is safe around medium to large breeds.....regardless of temperament or training. Offlead walking is very risky for small dogs in the vicinity
> ......no?
> 
> I repeat....if PD is a major possibility in med to large dogs.....should they all be kept on lead to prevent attack or death to small dogs......?
> ...


No I am afraid your logic is just that, yours alone, but feel free to use it.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Really?!
> 
> Please point me to the posts where I have said this?
> 
> ...


You can dress up the word "fetch" all you like!! These dogs are taught to fetch, and the motive is pleasing the owner. Nothing to do with prey in my opinion - but then again, its clearly only YOUR opinion that matters!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> You can dress up the word "fetch" all you like!! These dogs are taught to fetch, and the motive is pleasing the owner. Nothing to do with prey in my opinion - but then again, its clearly only YOUR opinion that matters!


Sad but true.....some people only see their own opinion and will contradict themselves and become rude because they feel they HAVE to be right......sad really


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> No I am afraid your logic is just that, yours alone, but feel free to use it.


How about answering a question. ......... To lay it out on a plate:

Is any medium to large dog capable of attacking and killing a small dog regardless of training.....breeding and temperament?

A simple YES or NO will do.

Thanks


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> The predatory response is not triggered by smell but by movement and sound.
> 
> Why do so many collies have issues with items with wheels? Do they smell like prey?


As far as I am concerned all off leads dogs large or small should be under the command of there owner who should be able to give one and only one command and that dogs should obey,no matter what predatory response they have,my BCs may feel the urge to chase a wheel but the word leave stops them in there tracks.I fail to see why people should expect me to pick up Harry because there dog doesn't like small dogs and they cant control that dog.I have been out with game keepers whose dogs are bred for the purpose but under control.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

suewhite said:


> As far as I am concerned all off leads dogs large or small should be under the command of there owner who should be able to give one and only one command and that dogs should obey,no matter what predatory response they have,my BCs may feel the urge to chase a wheel but the word leave stops them in there tracks.I fail to see why people should expect me to pick up Harry because there dog doesn't like small dogs and they cant control that dog.I have been out with game keepers whose dogs are bred for the purpose but under control.


This is exactly why my onlead dog is never allowed off! He cant be trusted 100%, and I dont think its fair to put well behaved offlead dogs at risk. why should their fun be spoilt because of my badly behaved dog???

As I've said before, my onlead dog is DA. I know, however, that it has absolutely nothing to do with prey. He doesnt show aggression to cats, even those he doesnt know, which I would have thought would be normal prey for prey driven dogs. Im pretty sure his aggression is something to do with protecting me from strange dogs. However, a few strong words from me keeps him in check.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Gemma86x (apologies if that is incorrect, going from memory) Have you heard anything back with regards your call to say you witnessed the incident?

Also it is a common belief, usually started by the police themselves that they are powerless in dog on dog attacks. It is half true to an extent, as a dog V dog attack is a civil offence and not a criminal offence. 

With this in mind you can not get compo for a death of a dogor indeed any injuries. I think I remember briefly someone here suggesting compo my by sought. That is the reasoning behind this point. However you can claim costs as a result of winning your case.

Now onto the topic this thread has been converted onto - PD.

PD can be found in all breeds and all sizes, so it is incorrect to think it is only a factor between small and large dogs. Indeed one breed that has a high display of PD is the JRT.

PD as already said is triggered by certain things. This area does vary by breed, and its breed history. By this I mean some breeds will be chasers were as others will be "finishers".

I.e a Greyhound will be a chaser, were as most (if not all) terriers will be "finishers". 

If you have a known/possible "finisher" then as a responsible owner you should take extra care to ensure your dog is not given a chance to carry this out. Again remember any size dog can be a "finisher", i.e small dogs were bred to kill rats, larger dogs to kill other breeds.

Smokeybear has already rightly stated what can trigger PD (movement and noise) so nothing for me to add there.

However, I will say that certain things can make PD "worse". This is if you have 2 or more dogs teaming up against one sole dog. And of course size difference is also a factor. That's not to say a small dog can not kill another small dog.

The only added risk from a large dog attacking a small dog (through PD) is the size difference allows the larger dog to progress further into the stages of PD.

These stages no doubt you will have seen in your very own dog, regardless of breed or size. More often that not they are thought of as "play". 

These are things such as nipping, biting, stalking, chasing, and shaking. But in fact all these things are carried through from being part of the "canis" group of animals and their links to hunting prey.

So that is how size is a big factor, i.e a Irish Wolfhound could shake a Chi, but a Chi couldn't shake a WH or indeed another Chi. 

But on the same note a Chi could easily kill another Chi or indeed any breed with a "blow" or bite to the right areas. 

So regardless of what size or breed you own you should be aware of PD. It could save a dogs life (either our own dogs or someone elses).

It is worth making note of how your dog responds or acts to toys and other dogs. 

For example if your dog pays no attention to dogs stood still, but reacts to dogs running away from him/her, or runs to a thrown toy, picks it up and then shakes it like mad etc. Then take these as signs of how that dog "could" react one day if given the chance.

As already said by Smokeybear no amount of training can stop PD creeping in totally. The only thing that can lessen the chances of PD creeping in is us humans. Get to know your dog, both as an individual and for it's size. 

I would also say get to know it for it's breed as well, but concentrating on that aspect could be dangerous. As already said by myself, the breed does increase the chances of things being "finished", i.e. a JRT will not stop until it's victim is not moving. Some others will chase it's victim, then catch it before letting it go free, others will chase, catch its "prey" and bring it back to you unharmed etc. 

The reason I say concentrating on breeds can be dangerous is like I said earlier, foolish. A Yorkie can kill a Chi, a Lab can kill a JRT, a JRT can kill a Lab, a Irish Wolfhound can kill a Greyhound, a Greyhound can kill a Shih Tzu, a Shih Tzu can kill a Maltese, a Maltese can kill................you get my point.

All dogs can kill. All dogs display signs of PD. 

As a final note: PD is not a form of aggression.


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

No I still haven't had a call back from the police yet


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I def believe in PD...I dont let mine run around with anything bigger then a JRT and TBH am extra cautious around certain breeds (like northern breeds and sighthounds) where their chase/kill instincts are likely to be closer to the surface. Esp as one of my Chi's is a DINOS and tends to run away screaming when confronted by another dog, a reaction which Ive seen get many dogs over excited.
In fact my other Chihuahua probably displays a fair bit of this behaviour himself! He is very reactive and even hearing the bell on a cats collar in a neighbouring garden can cause him to launch himself at one of my cats or my other dogs. He doesnt do it to be aggressive or hunt prey, its just some primitive part of his brain flashes on and he has to react. Thankfully he is super tiny and has the bite capacity of a toothless octogenarian!!
I actually think this would happen more often if it wasnt for the fact that most people are sensible enough not to let dogs of greatly different sizes play fast or roughly with each other.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

xgemma86x said:


> No I still haven't had a call back from the police yet


Have you tried chasing them up?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

xgemma86x said:


> No I still haven't had a call back from the police yet


looks like the request was all for show


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

catz4m8z said:


> I def believe in PD...I dont let mine run around with anything bigger then a JRT and TBH am extra cautious around certain breeds (like northern breeds and sighthounds) where their chase/kill instincts are likely to be closer to the surface. Esp as one of my Chi's is a DINOS and tends to run away screaming when confronted by another dog, a reaction which Ive seen get many dogs over excited.
> In fact my other Chihuahua probably displays a fair bit of this behaviour himself! He is very reactive and even hearing the bell on a cats collar in a neighbouring garden can cause him to launch himself at one of my cats or my other dogs. He doesnt do it to be aggressive or hunt prey, its just some primitive part of his brain flashes on and he has to react. Thankfully he is super tiny and has the bite capacity of a toothless octogenarian!!
> I actually think this would happen more often if it wasnt for the fact that most people are sensible enough not to let dogs of greatly different sizes play fast or roughly with each other.


Shelby (beagle) loves to be chanced , one day there was two greyhounds x salukis and they started chancing her but i could tell with in a moment they had gone into hunt mode and both soon had her pinned and having a go her her. The owners just laughed and said they do get a bit excited  had it been a smaller dog


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

So dogs that attack and kill other dogs are displaying PD not aggression.......got it. What a load of what a neutered dog no longer possesses

And really when the argument descends into Chis killing other dogs through PD.......you know its time to call time on discussion. 

Note that Smokey never did answer my direct question. No surprise there....

Oh and I never have to worry about my dogs attacking any dog because their temperaments and training wouldnt allow it.

Over and out.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

chichi said:


> So dogs that attack and kill other dogs are displaying PD not aggression.......got it. .


I think if you go back and read the thread you will see that people are citing PD as an explanation as to why a friendly, seemingly harmless dog might snap at, or rag a smaller dog. Im sure that the majority of dog on dog attacks happen because of behavioural issues and a clear sequence of events can be seen to trigger it. Dogs are carnivores who hunt their meals though, are used by man to hunt and often cannot conquer those instincts completely (why terriers and huskys arent bestest friends with bunnies and rodents usually!). 
Personally Id rather believe this can happen and exercise caution then stick my fingers in my ears and act surprised when my dog is injured! (and I think this might be a first!! me agreeing with Smokeybear!!LOL)


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

There are thousands of articles on dog aggression, all giving different theories. You either believe it, or you dont. 

I just dont find the PD credible. I believe some dogs are aggressive due to their temperament and sometimes lack of early socialisation and training. Having said that, some dogs just have the sweetest temperament, despite what they have suffered. 

I think PD is just a label/excuse for an aggressive dog.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> So dogs that attack and kill other dogs are displaying PD not aggression.......got it. What a load of what a neutered dog no longer possesses
> 
> And really when the argument descends into Chis killing other dogs through PD.......you know its time to call time on discussion.
> 
> ...


Nobody said PD is the only reason behind dog fights or attacks. However it is something displayed by all breeds even small ones.

You are right though training and temperament do play a part in how your dog reacts to other dogs. However if PD sets in no amount of prior training or the dogs temperament can stop it. PD driven attacks are started and ended in an extremely short time.

You can not stop PD setting in totally. However you can be a responsible dog owner by ensuring you don't allow your dog to become a victim or be the attacker.

As I stated earlier PD is not aggression, aggression is not PD. They are 2 different things, 2 different reasons behind dog attacks and dog fights.

I don't think anyone here has said it is the only reason. If anyone has said it is the only reason, they are incorrect.

Hope this makes sense, typing while watching Big Brother (don't judge me )


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> There are thousands of articles on dog aggression, all giving different theories. You either believe it, or you dont.
> 
> I just dont find the PD credible. I believe some dogs are aggressive due to their temperament and sometimes lack of early socialisation and training. Having said that, some dogs just have the sweetest temperament, despite what they have suffered.
> 
> I think PD is just a label/excuse for an aggressive dog.


Exactly how I feel. On one hand these people want the right to let their dogs off lead because they are trained....reliable recall..... Etc.

On The other hand EVERY dog no matter the breed is capable of PD. This being the case no dog should be allowed off lead........

Training and temperament is the key.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Nobody said PD is the only reason behind dog fights or attacks. However it is something displayed by all breeds even small ones.
> 
> You are right though training and temperament do play a part in how your dog reacts to other dogs. However if PD sets in no amount of prior training or the dogs temperament can stop it. PD driven attacks are started and ended in an extremely short time.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I dont agree. Whatever you label it.......the results are that a dog dies or suffers injury. I guarantee NONE of my dogs would EVER attack another dog. Fight back if attacked maybe but not attack 

Fellow BB watcher here so excuse typos please


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## x PIXIE x (Feb 9, 2012)

xgemma86x said:


> No I still haven't had a call back from the police yet


i would call again, if theres still no answer go to the paper and say you tried.

Ive complsined to the IPCC a few times for rubbish policing


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Training and temperament is the key.


I think the point is that PD is a basic instinct that overrides training and temperament. I certainly think it doesn't happen often and for most dogs it doesn't occur to the extent where another dog is seen as prey. While training and temperament can play a part I would add that breed probably plays an even bigger part as to when it is triggered. Some breeds have a much higher prey drive than others.



> Sorry but I dont agree. Whatever you label it.......the results are that a dog dies or suffers injury. I guarantee NONE of my dogs would EVER attack another dog. Fight back if attacked maybe but not attack


Don't you have a toy breed? Selectively bred for traits where the prey drive is diminished. My breed has been selectively bred to retrieve and have a soft mouth so that it does not damage game - this is instinctive in the breed and although ALL breeds are essentially dogs with basic canine traits including prey drive some breeds are more likely to display it than others.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

I believe its down to individual dogs and their temperament. I also think owners are well aware of their dog's temperament. 

Even lions dont attack prey on a full stomach, for the sake of it! So I find it hard to believe that dogs would.

My off lead dog would never attack, nor fight back. She is too sweet and shy. I know my dogs, and they are supervised accordingly.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

chichi said:


> Sorry but I dont agree. Whatever you label it.......the results are that a dog dies or suffers injury. I guarantee NONE of my dogs would EVER attack another dog. Fight back if attacked maybe but not attack
> 
> Fellow BB watcher here so excuse typos please


You really must be psychic to say this!!! Dogs can resort to attacking for a variety of reasons, I mean its not like they can turn around and tell us what is upsetting them! I remember reading in a dog magazine of someones dog who was shocked by an electric fence and turned to attack its housemate coz it associated it with the trauma. Ive also seen a very friendly little dog attack a playmate because it became impaled on a wire fence and the other dog got too close when it was in pain and panicked.
Adrenaline can do funny things to dogs (well, and people!!) so you really cant say with certainty that your dog would never bite another dog or even person if it was in a heighten state of arousal through fear, pain or base instincts.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Sorry but I dont agree. Whatever you label it.......the results are that a dog dies or suffers injury. I guarantee NONE of my dogs would EVER attack another dog. Fight back if attacked maybe but not attack
> 
> Fellow BB watcher here so excuse typos please


Yes, in Chi's the risk of a PD induced attack is small given they can't shake another Chi let alone a larger dog. But if a Chi was to bite a major blood vessel of any other dog the results can be fatal.

And nobody can guarantee 100% their dog will not attack (whether PD, aggression, lack of training etc caused). The only way you can remove the risk 100% is to remove your dogs teeth. A gummy dog is a safe dog.

You can lessen the chances of your dog attacking another using the methods you do by the sounds of things. These are training your dog, and socialising it from a young age etc. However these will only lessen an aggressive or an untrained dog caused fight or attack.

They will not stop a PD caused fight. The only thing that will, is you (not personally) as a responsible owner. Be cautious if you own a large breed and let it play with a smaller breed, even more so if you have more than one.

Lost my train of thought now due to the BB distraction.  So will end this here for now.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> You really must be psychic to say this!!! Dogs can resort to attacking for a variety of reasons, I mean its not like they can turn around and tell us what is upsetting them! I remember reading in a dog magazine of someones dog who was shocked by an electric fence and turned to attack its housemate coz it associated it with the trauma. Ive also seen a very friendly little dog attack a playmate because it became impaled on a wire fence and the other dog got too close when it was in pain and panicked.
> Adrenaline can do funny things to dogs (well, and people!!) so you really cant say with certainty that your dog would never bite another dog or even person if it was in a heighten state of arousal through fear, pain or base instincts.


Not psychic. Just know my dogs very well. It shocks me that some PF members dont know and trust their dogs so well. Hope they keep their dogs on lead or that would be appallingly irresponsible.......


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

chichi said:


> Not psychic. Just know my dogs very well. It shocks me that some PF members dont know and trust their dogs so well. Hope they keep their dogs on lead or that would be appallingly irresponsible.......


I trust my dogs, in the 4 and 2 years i've had them they have given me no indication to believe they would hurt another dog or person but i'm not ignorant enough to believe they are not capable. I'm not inside their head controlling every action, in every situation.

In my 30 years on the planet i've never hurt anyone but given some situations i could never say 100% i wouldn't ever for the rest of my life.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> You really must be psychic to say this!!! Dogs can resort to attacking for a variety of reasons, I mean its not like they can turn around and tell us what is upsetting them! I remember reading in a dog magazine of someones dog who was shocked by an electric fence and turned to attack its housemate coz it associated it with the trauma. Ive also seen a very friendly little dog attack a playmate because it became impaled on a wire fence and the other dog got too close when it was in pain and panicked.
> Adrenaline can do funny things to dogs (well, and people!!) so you really cant say with certainty that your dog would never bite another dog or even person if it was in a heighten state of arousal through fear, pain or base instincts.


Thats hardly a fair comparison, now is it?  I think 'I' might be capable of god knows what, if I'd been electrocuted!


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> Thats hardly a fair comparison, now is it?  I think 'I' might be capable of god knows what, if I'd been electrocuted!


That is exactly the point people here are making. With certain triggers you or a dog can be pushed into lashing out etc.

Be it an electric fence, a running animal, someone getting in your face, someone continually annoying you. We all have certain things that will envoke a reaction.

Those triggers vary within humans. Such as, I may get peeved off if someone poked my arm 50 times. But my mate might not until poked 100 times.

Just the same as one dog may not react to a running animal, another may. One dog may catch that running animal and then release it, another will "finish" the chase.

Every example of a species is different. We will all react at some point if pushed, it's just as case of how far we individually will allow it to go before reacting.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Im far from convinced. Its a theory that you either choose to believe or you dont - and I dont. And yes, I trust my off lead dog 100% never to attack another dog. She doesnt have it in her, and thats a fact!


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

How do you know thats a fact?

Just curious


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> I trust my dogs, in the 4 and 2 years i've had them they have given me no indication to believe they would hurt another dog or person but i'm not ignorant enough to believe they are not capable. I'm not inside their head controlling every action, in every situation.
> 
> In my 30 years on the planet i've never hurt anyone but given some situations i could never say 100% i wouldn't ever for the rest of my life.


But are you ignorant enough to let your dogs offlead around other dogs when you clearly dont have full confidence in your dogs' temperaments.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Even lions dont attack prey on a full stomach, for the sake of it! So I find it hard to believe that dogs would.


Like it or not domestic dogs do kill for the sake of it because it's what we've selected them to do. Up until very recently killing or maiming various animals was the main job description of many of our most popular breeds. A terrier will happily spend all day killing rats, hungry or not. This predatory behaviour is instinctive for dogs, like p*ssing up a wall, it doesn't come about through a failure of training and socialisation. I'm not sure what's so far fetched about the idea that a small, fast moving dog making high pitched noises can trigger the same instinctive response in some dogs as a similarly small, fast moving rodent.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> That is exactly the point people here are making. With certain triggers you or a dog can be pushed into lashing out etc.
> 
> Be it an electric fence, a running animal, someone getting in your face, someone continually annoying you. We all have certain things that will envoke a reaction.
> 
> ...


So would you say the tiny Yorkie that just stood there pushed the Rottie to kill it?

Slightly sick to me that any thread reporting the death of a small dog by a massive breed brings all the dog whisperers out with their excuses/theories. God help the owner of an offlead dog that attacks one of my dogs.......:devil:


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

lennythecloud said:


> Like it or not domestic dogs do kill for the sake of it because it's what we've selected them to do. Up until very recently killing or maiming various animals was the main job description of many of our most popular breeds. A terrier will happily spend all day killing rats, hungry or not. This predatory behaviour is instinctive for dogs, like p*ssing up a wall, it doesn't come about through a failure of training and socialisation. I'm not sure what's so far fetched about the idea that a small, fast moving dog making high pitched noises can trigger the same instinctive response in some dogs as a similarly small, fast moving rodent.


Unless the dog is a complete.... derrrr.... it should know the difference between an animal of its own species and a rodent.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2012)

Just agreeing with some very good posts here.

Predatory drift is *very* real and does happen. I believe its considered rare, but has been documented enough to be a credible explanation for some attacks. 

I have seen predatory drift myself in my own dogs. Dog A gets his tail stepped on, squeals, and dog B who has never had a single issue with him attacks. Zero issues with those two leading up to the event, zero issues after that event. Dogs are of similar size, and I was right there, and the dog who attacked has excellent verbal control and impulse control, so I was able to stop the attack verbally. Yes, I can also call this same very prey driven dog off of live chases. We have put a LOT of time in to this training because his prey drive was one of the main issues that led to him losing his home and ending up with us.

This same dog is also obedience and rally titled, therapy dog certified, and has his CGC. 

Prey drive is NOT aggression. Modern brain scanning technology and research shows that prey drive and aggression activate different parts of the brain. Aggression is a largely fear-based behavior (the fight part of the fight or flight response), and prey drive is a seeking/hunting behavior. 

Prey drive runs the gamut from herding to killing. Its all different expressions of the same instinctual behavior that we have moulded through breeding. No one freaks out over a greyhound chasing fake lures, a JRT killing a mouse, or a lab chasing a ball, and yet thats all prey drive.

I think the more we study behaviors, learn, and understand dog behaviors, the safer everyone is.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> So would you say the tiny Yorkie that just stood there pushed the Rottie to kill it?
> 
> Slightly sick to me that any thread reporting the death of a small dog by a massive breed brings all the dog whisperers out with their excuses/theories. God help the owner of an offlead dog that attacks one of my dogs.......:devil:


(God the amount of times I have edited this post before submitting etc is unbelievable. Took me so long I lost my train of thought, so apologies for the following waffling. I have even noticed that in my ending summary I more or less repeat everything I have said above it . Oh well too tired etc to try and edit it etc).

I am not saying it did provoke the attack. I don't think anyone here is saying it did.

I am saying (can not speak for anyone else) that PD *may* of been a cause. Just as much as poor ownership skills (lack of training etc) or that Yorkie doing something *could* be the cause.

Your belief seems to be (please correct me if I am wrong) that all fights/attacks are caused by aggression. If so that is far from true. There are many reasons behind a dog attack or fight. One of which is PD.

So your responsible attitude to training your dog etc, will play a major part in your dog not starting a fight like you state. I don't think anyone here is saying it will not. However what people are saying, is training will only affect aggression caused fights or attacks and not PD caused ones.

It's been said a few times now (firstly by smokeybear i believe) that PD is not linked to aggression. They are 2 different things, a friendly non aggressive dog can display signs being of predatory. Indeed all dogs do daily, but most people see it as play or "normal" and indeed it is usually nothing to be worried about as it will not cross the line.

The best example is to think of puppies (or young big cats). They will often show predatory signs, stalking and chasing littermates for example. The risk is what most people see as "playfighting", and it progressing into an attack is a fine line. All it takes is a tiny trigger and those predatory instincts drift into the danger element. Hence the name Predatory Drift.

Try this little experiment on your dog, via the use of youtube or etc.

Find a sample of the noise of a Jack rabbit, crow, fox, rat, cat etc in distress and play it to your dog. No matter if you have a well trained dog or not, I bet you that sound will awaken at least a tiny part of your dogs predatory instincts. The response does depend on your dog, at a minimum it will make your dog become alert. It could even make your dog try and seek out the source at speed.

Now imagine your dog listening to that sound recording,just as something small and fluffy dashed in front of him/her. My money would be on a chase being caused.

It is these predatory instincts that led to the breeds we have today. We bred Greyhounds to chase and catch, JRT's to chase, catch and kill and so on. We as humans used what already existed in the Canis group of animals to our advantage.

These predatory instincts have also aided providers of toys for the pet market and not only for dogs.

Fox on a stick for dogs and toy mice for cats are just 2 examples.

We seem to be going around and around in circles now. So I will just end my part in this thread (as I don't think I have anything new to add) by saying the following.

Your points (along with Ang2's, and maybe one or two others) with regards training etc are totally valid for aggression based fights and attacks. But prior training can not prevent PD creeping in if it is allowed to.

So we are just highlighting the fact that not all fights and attacks are caused by aggression, some are caused by other factors such as PD.

Now if you were to compare those 2 reasons, you will see aggression is a bigger cause of fights than PD.

So by training your dog etc, you are dealing with a major cause of say 99% of dog attacks/fights.

Nobody here is saying (as far as I can make out) that PD is a bigger cause or indeed the only cause. The point is, PD is often the reason a well trained dog can "flip".

Whether aggression or PD is the reasoning behind the attack, responsible dog ownership will limit the chances of an incident happening. I think we all agree on that.

So let me end on a that positive note that we all agree on your actions as an owner plays a huge part. Group hug anyone??????????


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

chichi said:


> But are you ignorant enough to let your dogs offlead around other dogs when you clearly dont have full confidence in your dogs' temperaments.


So i should keep two high energy breeds on leads for there whole life because i simply believe they have a control over their own brains and are not programmed robots  They have been socialized from day dot when i got them as a pups, they have grown up with other dogs, babies and never once shown any aggression so why would i not let them off lead 

So only those with tiny dogs that could never do any damage like your bred should ever be off lead  It's those who trust their dogs 100% that don't watch their dogs for signs and that's when trouble can happen :dita:


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> So i should keep two high energy breeds on leads for there whole life because i simply believe they have a control over their own brains and are not programmed robots  They have been socialized from day dot when i got them as a pups, they have grown up with other dogs, babies and never once shown any aggression so why would i not let them off lead
> 
> So only those with tiny dogs that could never do any damage like your bred should ever be off lead  It's those who trust their dogs 100% that don't watch their dogs for signs and that's when trouble can happen :dita:


So having said all that, Im just wondering why you dont trust your dogs 100%? Seems to me that you are saying that you still think they are capable of aggression. If they are, then I think you would have seen signs by now.

I think dogs are like your kids; you know them inside out! Everyone is giving comparisons on JRT's and Greyhounds, but these dogs were bred and trained to be prey driven. You cant apply this theory to all dogs in general.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> So i should keep two high energy breeds on leads for there whole life because i simply believe they have a control over their own brains and are not programmed robots  They have been socialized from day dot when i got them as a pups, they have grown up with other dogs, babies and never once shown any aggression so why would i not let them off lead
> 
> So only those with tiny dogs that could never do any damage like your bred should ever be off lead  It's those who trust their dogs 100% that don't watch their dogs for signs and that's when trouble can happen :dita:


No you should let a small dog pay with its life for letting off a dog you dont 100 per cent trust:sneaky2: obviously.

Just for the record my dogs ONLY go off lead when larger dogs are nowhere to be seen because of selfish dog owners that let their dogs off lead when they are not completely reliable with small dogs........you know the ones I mean yes?


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> So having said all that, Im just wondering why you dont trust your dogs 100%? Seems to me that you are saying that you still think they are capable of aggression. If they are, then I think you would have seen signs by now.
> 
> I think dogs are like your kids; you know them inside out! Everyone is giving comparisons on JRT's and Greyhounds, but these dogs were bred and trained to be prey driven. You cant apply this theory to all dogs in general.


I did say I wouldn't post here again if it meant repeating myself.

But for the last 10 times:

PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.
PD is not connected to aggression.

JRT's and Greyhounds were given as examples for PD, not as examples of aggression. Though any breed, from small dogs to large dogs can fall foul to PD not just any of the named breeds.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> No you should let a small dog pay with its life for letting off a dog you dont 100 per cent trust:sneaky2: obviously.
> 
> Just for the record my dogs ONLY go off lead when larger dogs are nowhere to be seen because of selfish dog owners that let their dogs off lead when they are not completely reliable with small dogs........you know the ones I mean yes?


This is a good example of what I meant last night. We all agree (whatever side of the PD arguement you are on) that whatever the cause, it all relies on responsible dog ownership.

You limit offlead contact between your small dog and larger dogs, and likewise owners of larger dogs should limit offlead contact with smaller dogs. It's all about being responsible.

I think this thread has dragged itself out longer than it should, due to the failure by some to notice that PD is not an aggression related cause.

PD is a cause of attacks/fights. All be it a smaller reason than aggression based causes.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> I did say I wouldn't post here again if it meant repeating myself.
> 
> But for the last 10 times:
> 
> ...


PD is just a play on words.....as in

PD leads to severe injury of a dog and

Aggression leads to ............. Severe injury of a dog :ihih:

Just another excuse for larger dog owners to allow their dogs off lead when they display aggressive tendencies.......killing or injuring a smaller dog.

This thread has become pointless. I get the point....... Larger breeds cant be trusted around small dogs in case their primitive instincts take over and they think Fufu is dinner. Gotcha. Years of people campaigning regarding the rights of dogs. ...deed not breed and all of that has just been blown away because your admitting that dogs cant be trusted despite appropriate breeding, socialisation and training. Well done *round of applause please*


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

funny that when a police did a report on the dogs that have bitten humans most the top 3 were the labrador, the dalmation and the chi. 
funny also that attacks like these on humans are not in the media, as they are not as interesting as attacks on people by staffies, german shepards, rottweilers etc. 
and this thread is going round in circles, its making me dizzy.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> So having said all that, Im just wondering why you dont trust your dogs 100%? Seems to me that you are saying that you still think they are capable of aggression. If they are, then I think you would have seen signs by now.
> 
> *I think dogs are like your kids; you know them inside out!* Everyone is giving comparisons on JRT's and Greyhounds, but these dogs were bred and trained to be prey driven. You cant apply this theory to all dogs in general.


You are deluded !!!! My parents don't know me inside out and I wouldn't be arrogant enough to believe I know mine inside out even at 4 and 11 years old 

They have their own brains, they are not robots.... Thank god .


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> This is a good example of what I meant last night. We all agree (whatever side of the PD arguement you are on) that whatever the cause, it all relies on responsible dog ownership.
> 
> You limit offlead contact between your small dog and larger dogs, and likewise owners of larger dogs should limit offlead contact with smaller dogs. It's all about being responsible.
> 
> ...


I agree the thread is protracted because when all is said and done. ....a small completely innocent dog was attacked and killed by a dog that should have been on a lead. The Rottie owner walked away without so much as an apology. Would somebody that despicable give a toss about ensuring their dog was safe around others. Yet you people throw in the EXCUSE that PD took over.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

CRL said:


> funny that when a police did a report on the dogs that have bitten humans most the top 3 were the labrador, the dalmation and the chi.
> funny also that attacks like these on humans are not in the media, as they are not as interesting as attacks on people by staffies, german shepards, rottweilers etc.
> and this thread is going round in circles, its making me dizzy.


Oh......that old chestnut.......Chis are killer dogs. Lock up your Rotties in case they get killed by a passing Chi. Great argument:dita:


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

chichi said:


> I agree the thread is protracted because when all is said and done. ....a small completely innocent dog was attacked and killed by a dog that should have been on a lead. The Rottie owner walked away without so much as an apology. Would somebody that despicable give a toss about ensuring their dog was safe around others. Yet you people throw in the EXCUSE that PD took over.


Wasn't it thrown in as a possible reason? Without being in the dogs head, noone could know for sure.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> PD is just a play on words.....as in
> 
> PD leads to severe injury of a dog and
> 
> ...


Obviously you don't get the point, so yet again stand by for a repeat worthy of BBC coverage.


PD has nothing to do with the requirement to eat, hunt, seek prey as a food source.
PD is seen in small dogs as well as large dogs.
That fact that any breed can fall foul of PD only makes the deed not breed point stronger (you know, as in PD is seen in all breeds....all breeds can carry out a PD caused attack?????) Or just like the point behind "Deed Not Breed", all breeds are as dangerous as each other.

So sorry to disappoint you, your breed is just as likely to attack as any other under the banner of PD. Even more seriously compared to some larger breeds. Your breed was bred as a "finisher", some larger breeds were bred to retrieve or catch.

Remember this point is said by myself under the banner of PD. I am not saying your breed of dog is more aggressive than a larger breed. Once more for luck - PD is not connected to aggression.

And the play on words argument from you is rather lame.

1) My wife walks into a door............she gets a bruised face.
2) I grab my wife, knee her in the face, then punch her 3 times in the face........she gets a bruised face.

Same result, different causes. Indeed also with different consequences.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> Wasn't it thrown in as a possible reason? Without being in the dogs head, noone could know for sure.


Its all that this thread has discussed as a possible reason.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

chichi said:


> Yet you people throw in the EXCUSE that PD took over.


as many people have said they arent using PD as an excuse for this behaviour but rather a possible explanation. I would hope that the Rottie is now under order to be walked on lead and/or muzzled in public if it has shown itself to display this worrying behaviour, and Im sure others feel the same (even if they have big dogs!). 
I believe fully in PD as I have seen it often in my dog (a CHIHUAHUA!). If he is near another animal when he hears a cat bell or see's one he cant get to he will lunge for the neck of one of my other dogs or cats. He isnt acting out of aggression (he doesnt challenge the girls ever) and its not an attack as such. Its a misdirected prey response caused by a sudden spike of adrenaline that he has no control over. 
It doesnt mean I dont walk my dogs near others though. It just means I exercise caution when near bigger dogs and try my best to keep my midgets safe.

To those who trust their dogs 100%, do you walk them near bigger dogs off lead?? coz surely you would be happy to do this if the owners say they trust their dogs 100%? After all if you can be completely sure your dog would never attack then they must be too, right??


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> You are deluded !!!! My parents don't know me inside out and I wouldn't be arrogant enough to believe I know mine inside out even at 4 and 11 years old
> 
> They have their own brains, they are not robots.... Thank god .


Deluded........or knows her dogs and kids.

Getting slightly personal Pointermum arent you......inferred I was ignorant Now Ang deluded. Sure way to get the thread in the toilet because we can all stoop to insults


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Taking PD out of this I would just say ignorant bad owner untrained dog adds up to a poor dog lossing its life.I dont think for one minute this was PD caused in this case.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Hideously horrible for everyone there.

The dog might be good at tricks, but the owner certainly wasn't in control. 

Once the dog had attacked, there was nothing the man could do - but he shouldn't have walked off. Disgraceful. You did all you could for the poor owners, so well done you.

If I were you, I would also contact the local police and RSPCA. The morre people the better. Then they might listen. I am sure you can do so anonomously if you prefer. Explain exactly what you saw. Explain that the man and dog are often up there. 

Are there kids around? Who knows - it could be a little toddler next.

I am sure that the police and RSPCA could warn him to keep dog on lead in public in future, if nothing else, and you will at least know that you have done absolutely all that you could.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

AM, youre just not getting it! Some of us dont believe in PD. Its a bit like a bit like a woman murdering her husband and blaming PMT. Im not having it!


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

chichi said:


> Deluded........or knows her dogs and kids.
> 
> Getting slightly personal Pointermum arent you......inferred I was ignorant Now Ang deluded. Sure way to get the thread in the toilet because we can all stoop to insults


Sorry I didn't know you two must be psychic and can read your kids and dogs minds , so you know what they are thinking and how they will react to every single situation in life  :sosp:  :Yawn:


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Summersky said:


> Hideously horrible for everyone there.
> 
> The dog might be good at tricks, but the owner certainly wasn't in control.
> 
> ...


A dog that attacks other dogs can be fine with humans. Likewise a human aggressive dog can be fine with other dogs. A dog which has killed a dog, is not automatically going to become a child killer.

Wonder if there is any update from Gemma if she has finally spoken to the police, or if the owner has been caught.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Cant quote....phone wont let me......so:

Attack Mode

Your like for like is totally lame because your wife walking into a door or you beating the poo out of her is not comparable to the Yorkies death.

The Yorkie didnt walk into a tree and die from a fractured skull or something. The poor mite died because a large breed dog chomped into it. How can you liken this scenario to your wife walking into something. That is a very lame argument.

To Catz 

My CHIHUAHUAS (used caps because you did for some reason) do not display the same behaviours as yours......so dont judge all dogs as the same.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> Sorry I didn't know you two must be psychic and can read your kids and dogs minds , so you know what they are thinking and how they will react to every single situation in life  :sosp:  :Yawn:


Cant say Im surprised by your retort.

Have a nice day. Wont over use the smileys because that would be rather childish....


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Pointermum said:


> Sorry I didn't know you two must be psychic and can read your kids and dogs minds , so you know what they are thinking and how they will react to every single situation in life  :sosp:  :Yawn:


thats whats keeping this thread going isnt it?? The sheer close mindedness of a couple of people who may still believe that the world is flat!!:lol: (here's a spoiler....it isnt).
Not only can you not know exactly what your kids or dogs will do in every situation but you cant even know what you would do!! This is why people are often injured in fires by running back into burning buildings (after they have first run out and left the kids behind!!).


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> You are deluded !!!! My parents don't know me inside out and I wouldn't be arrogant enough to believe I know mine inside out even at 4 and 11 years old
> 
> They have their own brains, they are not robots.... Thank god .


No need to be rude and insulting, as I certainly wasnt to you! I was just merely asking for your reasons.

As you watch your children growing up, no two are the same. They all have their different personalities, just like animals.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> thats whats keeping this thread going isnt it?? The sheer close mindedness of a couple of people who may still believe that the world is flat!!:lol: (here's a spoiler....it isnt).
> Not only can you not know exactly what your kids or dogs will do in every situation but you cant even know what you would do!! This is why people are often injured in fires by running back into burning buildings (after they have first run out and left the kids behind!!).


Your rudeness and sarcasm is shameful. And using the world is flat comment. Goodness u and Smokey make a great pair. So funny...........not.

Pointless trying to discuss with some people. If you dont agree they become abusive. Very childish may I say and that is all.....


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> AM, youre just not getting it! Some of us dont believe in PD. Its a bit like a bit like a woman murdering her husband and blaming PMT. Im not having it!


Certain "illnesses" are behind certain crimes. It is for that very reason why here in the UK, we have the judicial system we do for dealing with different categories of offenders. And then have different systems for any offenders given a custodial sentence. 

Or are you now saying PMT, mental health, etc should not be believed, they are made up???


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Myself and others just dont believe that PD (if it exists) which is exactly the act of inflicting injury... is not aggression! Just doesnt make sense to me.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> To those who trust their dogs 100%, do you walk them near bigger dogs off lead?? coz surely you would be happy to do this if the owners say they trust their dogs 100%? After all if you can be completely sure your dog would never attack then they must be too, right??


Id actually be really interested in an answer to this question by those who implicitly trust their dogs?? Does it go both ways for you??



chichi said:


> Your rudeness and sarcasm is shameful. And using the world is flat comment. Goodness u and Smokey make a great pair. .


Well, its only rude and sarcastic if you recognize yourself in the 'close minded' comment and to be fair if you do then you cant be offended coz you would have your fingers in your ears and your blinders on anyways!!
am now off to laugh until I puke that someone has paired me with Smokey!!:lolmust be an ecplipse or the aliens have landed!!).


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

chichi said:


> Cant quote....phone wont let me......so:
> 
> Attack Mode
> 
> ...


Errmmmmm I suggest you re-read your above reply to myself and apply it to all your own posts. You were the one comparing things to unconnected things, not me.

Here goes hold on tight, looks like we are heading for another cycle of repeating the same points over and over again..........................


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> No need to be rude and insulting, as I certainly wasnt to you! I was just merely asking for your reasons.
> 
> As you watch your children growing up, no two are the same. They all have their different personalities, just like animals.


People often become rude I find when their argument is failing and there is nothing intelligent left to say

I am bailing out of this thread in case I am tempted to lower myself into argument rather than discussion.

Good luck Ang but I think you may be wasting your time x


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm expecting Jerry Springer to walk in on this thread any second.....

Can't you all agree to disagree and move on


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Certain "illnesses" are behind certain crimes. It is for that very reason why here in the UK, we have the judicial system we do for dealing with different categories of offenders. And then have different systems for any offenders given a custodial sentence.
> 
> Or are you now saying PMT, mental health, etc should not be believed, they are made up???


No, Im just giving an example of excuses used after the crime has been committed


----------



## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Errmmmmm I suggest you re-read your above reply to myself and apply it to all your own posts. You were the one comparing things to unconnected things, not me.
> 
> Here goes hold on tight, looks like we are heading for another cycle of repeating the same points over and over again..........................


Calm down dear.......its a pet forum. We discuss. Its what you do on forums but never fear Ive given up on this thread because its deteriorating with personal insults from some.

Off to discuss on threads where people can refrain from insulting other members


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

chichi said:


> People often become rude I find when their argument is failing and there is nothing intelligent left to say
> 
> I am bailing out of this thread in case I am tempted to lower myself into argument rather than discussion.
> 
> Good luck Ang but I think you may be wasting your time x


At least AM has conducted his argument in a decent and friendly manner. I respect his viewpoint but still am not convinced.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

Lavenderb said:


> I'm expecting Jerry Springer to walk in on this thread any second.....
> 
> Can't you all agree to disagree and move on


Well said!!people on forums dont have the same opinions would be boring if they did.We have had many thread similiar to this and it has usually been put down to bad owner untrained dog never if I can remember PD


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> I'm expecting Jerry Springer to walk in on this thread any second.....
> 
> Can't you all agree to disagree and move on


Just closing the door on the way out


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> No, Im just giving an example of excuses used after the crime has been committed


Oh OK I apologise.

Also having read your disagreements with how to break up dog fights on another thread, I have a question for you.

When is your next seminar on Dog Attacks?

Me and a few colleagues might be interested in attending. It seems we have been talking s*** for years now on what causes dogs to attack and how to break up fights.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

suewhite said:


> Well said!!people on forums dont have the same opinions would be boring if they did.We have had many thread similiar to this and it has usually been put down to bad owner untrained dog never if I can remember PD


I'm going to bring in some handbags in a moment Sue and they can beat the hell out of each other with those.....would you like some popcorn whilst watching?


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Attack Mode said:


> Oh OK I apologise.
> 
> Also having read your disagreements with how to break up dog fights on another thread, I have a question for you.
> 
> ...


Talk ****! - Hard Core Discussion! Is that you and yours by any chance?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Wow if the words deluded and ignorant in context of what we are talking about really get you THAT upset then sorry .


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> Oh OK I apologise.
> 
> Also having read your disagreements with how to break up dog fights on another thread, I have a question for you.
> 
> ...


Its on 12th December, how many tickets?


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

[youtube_browser]bJLSZfpwgFs[/youtube_browser]


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Lets now just stop the PD discussion (it's been dragged out to death) and let the discussion return to the dogs involved. Hoping Gemma comes back here and updates us with any news.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> Its on 12th December, how many tickets?


so 12/12/12 - 1 2 1 2 1 2............which sounds like Jerry Jerry Jerry. Funny lady Ang


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## Thetiniestbitstrange (Aug 14, 2012)

That must have been absolutely awful to have witnessed. I witnessed something similar once, only thankfully there were an ambulance and paramedic who rushed to help the little injured dog and is still alive. I hate witnessing dog on dog attacks, I can't stand it, it's so horrifying it's unreal! I get in a right state.


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

Knightofalbion said:


> Surely the issue here is the need for dog owners to be responsible and to train and control their animals properly. It would seem the fellow with the dog that attacked the other dog failed miserably on all three counts...


And it is these such ones that need to be bought to justice!! and to my mind the only way of punishment for these sort of morons is to hit them in their pocket with extremely high fines! seems to me that will be the only way these morons will start to be responsible as it obvious they dont care about the animals otherwise this sick moron wouldnt have just shrugged his shoulders, all he was botherd about was just showing off new tricks his (KILLER dog) can do :mad2: .....HIS dog killed that poor little dog, something HAS to be done, and when word really gets out about high fines maybe then we will hear less of this happening....

oh dear me! I just can't bare the thoughts of what the couple is going through and yourself OP  .... all this breaks my heart


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> To be fair to the Rottie owner it may not ever have shown signs of aggression before, it may merely have been exhibiting "predatory drift" and seen the dog as dinner.
> 
> Of course that is irrelevant to the other dog and its owner, the outcome is the same.
> 
> ...


Shame the owners of a Rottie didnt read this a few years ago when their dog killed THEIR GRANDCHILD....how on earth they lived with themselves after that god only knows!.... I have to say I am sick to back teeth when hearing about instances of dog attacks be it another dog or human, the statement from them is ALWAYS "they have never been aggressive before, they are so gentle and kind"..... Grrrrr it makes me sick to my stomach hearing that :mad2::mad2::mad2:!! that same dog has KILLED another dog or baby!!!!

I'm going now, I'm getting angrier by the second by morons who are SO irresponsible in not learning about Dog Behavoir and it's consequences!.............


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## MyMillie (Jun 17, 2012)

When I posted my first 2 responses I hadn't read to the end, I think I got to page 7/8...but anyway, all I want to say now is if ever I hear someone all giggly and smiley tell me when their "off lead" dog is approaching my "on lead pup" that their dog "100% safe" I will scoop up my little dog and walk away....

NO DOG IS "EVER" 100% SAFE!!!!!

I know my 6mth old sweet natured little mini schnauzer just loves everyone and every dog she meets BUT!.... I would never ever trust her 100% not to ever do anything out of character if something "clicked" in her brain.... just knowing about her breed tells me she "could" take off at any given moment it she saw something small scooting about, after all, they were bred as ratters!!........I could never live with myself if she when an adult could maybe take off to "catch" a tiny dog thats running around and cause harm to it


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## Guest (Aug 15, 2012)

It is worrying that dog owners would be so far off the mark as far as understanding these wonderful creatures we share our lives with.

To be clear, I have no clue what triggered the rottie in the OP, nor do I think anyone is claiming to know that answer. Predatory drift is a valid *possible* explanation, especially in a dog who is otherwise safe around other dogs.

The truth is, biting, is NORMAL behavior for ALL dogs. As I type this I have to giant cinderblock heads at my feet playing a rousing game of "bitey-face" including grabbing a mouthful of jowl and holding on. My feet have remained wholly untouched (well, except for a tooth knock on my shin that I did not appreciate). The same dog who has a mouthful of her playmate's jowls can also dispatch a rabbit in one bite, and nibble a bandaid off a 9 year old's arm with the utmost gentleness.

Biting, from the softest mouthing to bone crushing power is all normal. 
Chewing, from the gentlest nibble to kong destruction is all normal.

There is no such thing as a dog who will not bite. If the dog has a properly functioning jaw that opens and closes, the dog can and will bite, and if that jaw houses teeth, the dog can potentially do damage.

Predatory behavior is also not only perfectly normal and expected in dogs, it has been selectively bred for! 
Below is from an article by Suzanne Clothier talking about drive, but the part about predatory sequence is a good read too. (Emphasis mine.)


> To be sure, whenever the behavior of biting is involved, people tend to get worried. And for good reason. Add "gripping" and words like "full bite" and people get even more concerned. Those pearly whites alarm folks. *Our understanding of aggression is sometimes simplistic at best, and some believe that if teeth are shown or used, aggression is part of the picture. The truth is far from that simple!* In reality, biting or gripping is just a behavior, *part of the dog's natural behaviors,* and behaviors that can be used with tremendous power or astounding nuance and delicacy. If you've ever been nibbled groomed or bitten hard, watched a dog rip a sturdy toy to shreds or play tug with a young pup and let the puppy win, then you've seen some of the range of these behaviors.
> 
> For those who find the whole notion of biting and gripping worrisome, perhaps it is easiest to think about it this way: substitute "bite" or "grip" with *retrieve, herd, chase.* *All of these behaviors are aspects of the predatory sequence.* In his books DOGS, Ray Coppinger does a wonderful job of explaining the predatory behavior chain - I often recommend his book solely for that chapter.
> 
> ...


Predation, from loping half-heartedly after a tennis ball, to stalking, chasing, pouncing and killing prey, is all not only normal, but hard-wired in to our canine friends.

Finally, prey drive does NOT equal aggression (just in case that wasn't clear ) And prey drive most certainly does not mean a toddler is next. Human aggression is a completely different beast than prey drive.

My "safest" dog with humans is also my least safe dog with other dogs. This dog has a hugely high pain tolerance, knows no physical boundaries, actually enjoys hugs and what I call "puppy pile ups". The more you lay on him or he lays on you, the happier he is. So he is perfect to sleep in a bed with a kid flopping around and kicking him while he sleeps. Doesn't bother him in the least. This is the dog who was eating his dinner when a visiting kid did a cartwheel, and fell right on top of the dog. He fell to the ground with a grunt, extricated himself out from under the kid, and licked her face, then calmly went back to finish his meal. (Yet for the record, despite this, I would never say I'm 100% sure this dog would never bite a kid.)
This same dog has a prey drive that makes him very unsafe around small dogs or even larger dogs who tend to be flighty.

Pit bulls (true APBT) are a great example of a high prey drive breed wholly *un*safe with most family pets, but hugely safe with children. No mistake pitties used to be known as the "nanny" dog. 
What about greyhounds and whippets? They'll kill a bunny in a skinny minute, but no one worries about them turning on humans.

A knowledgeable, responsible dog owner will ensure that they are aware of ALL of these tendencies in our dogs and the possible combinations there-of that our particular dogs are most likely to exhibit.

Edit:
source for quote above:
http://www.suzanneclothier.com/blog/drive-and-brakes-and-steering


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Actually, thank you one and all for tjis thread.

While I was (who wasn't?) upset by the terrible fate of the little dog and the appalling indiference of the rottie's owner; I've just learned a heap.

I think everyone who cares knows that Rex is a bit of a monster but SmokeyBear and a few others have provided me with a very useful chunk of information. All the prey drive stuff fits some of his behaviour to perfection. I've always said - glibly - that he has a terrific prey drive. So he has and now I'm off to read more stuff about it.

I hope that the police DO deal with the Rottie's owner.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

What bothers me is that I never wanted to be the neurotic owner who picked up their yorkie at the sight of a big dog and now it seems I should be...


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Jobeth said:


> What bothers me is that I never wanted to be the neurotic owner who picked up their yorkie at the sight of a big dog and now it seems I should be...


Whether the cause is PD, aggression, lack of training, etc. The prevention of an attack is always the same..........be a responsible owner. If you don't know the other owner and/or dog then make a decision yourself.

I.e:

"That dog is offlead, the owner "may" not have control. I tell you want I am going to be responsible and pick my dog up as we pass it/change my route to avoid that dog."

"I think I will stop my little Maltese playing with those 2 Greyhounds."

"I don't think it's wise I let my 2 dogs run around with that puppy."

Whatever you do to limit your dog from being in "an aggression caused" attack will assist in limiting him/her from being in a "PD caused" attack.

So if your Yorkie was attacked, either through PD or aggression. The same thing could of stopped both causes:

*RESPONSIBILITY*

Sadly you can only count on your own responsibility. You never know what the other owner is like and if they will step up to the mark. 

(This post has been rewritten 5 times. Each time something different, each time a different length, most were really long. This is the short version. )


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Oh no im so sorry for the owner of that poor little yorkie, there is no reason for it to be killed like that. Rest in peace little one. xx


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Attack Mode said:


> Errmmmmm I suggest you re-read your above reply to myself and apply it to all your own posts. You were the one comparing things to unconnected things, not me.
> 
> Here goes hold on tight, looks like we are heading for another cycle of repeating the same points over and over again..........................


Attack mode, did you used to be a member under a different name?

No offence it's just your posts are sounding very familiar to me and you are posting responses as if you have been a member for a long time as opposed to a few days.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Attack mode, did you used to be a member under a different name?
> 
> No offence it's just your posts are sounding very familiar to me and you are posting responses as if you have been a member for a long time as opposed to a few days.


No I am new here. Though have been a member of other dog forums.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Attack Mode said:


> No I am new here. Though have been a member of other dog forums.


You seem very similar to another poster.

You also talked to the poster, in the post i quoted and others like a long standing member instead of one who had only just joined.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> You seem very similar to another poster.
> 
> You also talked to the poster, in the post i quoted and others like a long standing member instead of one who had only just joined.


Quoted where exactly? I did end up coming across this forum due to a thread started by a member who has made posts on this very thread. So you are referring to Ang2, I have been reading her posts on that thread prior to joining.

This was her thread about dog fights, and how to protect or prevent them. This was from viewing as a guest, the process which is known by a term which escapes me at the moment.

I even mention the reasons behind me finally joining either in this thread or my intro. Can not think where else I would of posted mentioned it, so it is bound to have one of those 2. Well unless I mentioned it in my one post on that dog fight thread started by Ang2.

Having posted on the New Post thread I see from others that you get problems from spammers here. Indeed I have seen 2 who seem to copy other posts word for word. So for that reason I can see why new members such as myself can arouse suspicion.

Indeed being questioned about motives etc as a newbie is a good thing I guess. Any suspicious new people if questioned by longer standing members, will be put off continuing if they are indeed fake etc.

And no offence is taken. 

Ah remember the term now - lurking.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

Jobeth said:


> What bothers me is that I never wanted to be the neurotic owner who picked up their yorkie at the sight of a big dog and now it seems I should be...


Funny enough I fell in love with the dobermann breed after watching one being chased up my street by a yorkie when I was a child.

What a horrible scene to witness. I'd be devastated. If it is out of character for the dog the owner might not have apologized because he was in shock at what his dog did. Hopefully he will keep it muzzled and on lead in future.

I regularly walk opie with smaller dogs, mainly jack russells. Because of the size difference I like to keep a close eye on him to make sure he doesn't get over excited. If I think he is, I call him back to me and put him back on his lead for five minutes. I'm not worried about him biting, I'm more worried about the force behind him if he was to crash into them.

PD is real. I believe it was the reason behind my sister's dog killing the family cat in june. JJ saw something dash past him out of the corner of his eye and pounced, killing her instantly. It wasn't aggression because he never once tried to bite my mam or aunt when they were ragging him away from tiffany's body. He is walked on a head collar and is always kept on lead.

I will be reading back through Smokeybear's info about pd. She may be blunt and to the point, but she does know her stuff when it comes to dogs and dog law.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I would be interested to know what breeds of dogs those who do not believe in predatory drift own.

I have a hunting gundog and border collies and so it's easy for me to see their predatory behaviour and how it manifests itself. My dogs catch and kill small furries but they do not eat them. Once they are dead they generally lose interest and walk away. Is this aggression, or merely a dog acting upon a strong hunting instinct?

IMO, PD is not aggression.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

It amazes me that people can just walk off after an attack on another dog or a person. I could never do that myself, I would hang around.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Originally Posted by chichi 
Cant quote....phone wont let me......so:

Attack Mode

Your like for like is totally lame because your wife walking into a door or you beating the poo out of her is not comparable to the Yorkies death.

The Yorkie didnt walk into a tree and die from a fractured skull or something. The poor mite died because a large breed dog chomped into it. How can you liken this scenario to your wife walking into something. That is a very lame argument.

To Catz

My CHIHUAHUAS (used caps because you did for some reason) do not display the same behaviours as yours......so dont judge all dogs as the same.



Attack Mode said:


> Errmmmmm I suggest you re-read your above reply to myself and apply it to all your own posts. You were the one comparing things to unconnected things, not me.
> 
> Here goes hold on tight, looks like we are heading for another cycle of repeating the same points over and over again..........................


This was the posts i quoted that i was talking about.



Attack Mode said:


> Quoted where exactly? I did end up coming across this forum due to a thread started by a member who has made posts on this very thread. So you are referring to Ang2, I have been reading her posts on that thread prior to joining.
> 
> This was her thread about dog fights, and how to protect or prevent them. This was from viewing as a guest, the process which is known by a term which escapes me at the moment.
> 
> ...


You really don't need to justify yourself to me. I just thought you sounded very like another member and even put them across in a similar manner too.

I didn't think you was a spammer though. Just familiar.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Originally Posted by chichi
> Cant quote....phone wont let me......so:
> 
> Attack Mode
> ...


Oh that post was based on the fact that this thread is only so long because I had to keep repeating the same things. And Chichi and Ang2 were repeating themselves. So was a little bit of humour of how this thread is just members repeating themselves. Others even joined in the humour with the jerry springer remarks.  The "refer to all your other posts" comment was on about posts in this thread. I had not seen any of chichi's posts (that ring a bell) prior to joining up. As for some reason this section is hidden from guests, or I never remember seeing a general section in lurking days.

Which reminds me of a question I was going to ask yesterday. How come this thread is in general chat? Wouldn't it be better in the dog section?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Attack Mode said:


> Oh that post was based on the fact that this thread is only so long because I had to keep repeating the same things. And Chichi and Ang2 were repeating themselves. So was a little bit of humour of how this thread is just members repeating themselves. Others even joined in the humour with the jerry springer remarks.  The "refer to all your other posts" comment was on about posts in this thread. I had not seen any of chichi's posts (that ring a bell) prior to joining up. As for some reason this section is hidden from guests, or I never remember seeing a general section in lurking days.
> 
> Which reminds me of a question I was going to ask yesterday. How come this thread is in general chat? Wouldn't it be better in the dog section?


I meant your humour was more of an established member thats all.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I meant your humour was more of an established member thats all.


Oh OK. :001_unsure:


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I meant your humour was more of an established member thats all.


I'm guessing if your use to other forums of the same nature you get stuck in , plus Attack Mode seems to know their stuff !

Anyway Attack Mode male or female.... it always bugs me when i don't know  :lol:


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> I'm guessing if your use to other forums of the same nature you get stuck in , plus Attack Mode seems to know their stuff !
> 
> Anyway Attack Mode male or female.... it always bugs me when i don't know  :lol:


Male. The clue was in one example here I used "wife". That said I don't actually have one.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Attack Mode said:


> Male. The clue was in one example here I used "wife". That said I don't actually have one.


:lol: i started skim reading after page 5 or so


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Emma, so who did you think he was? Spill the beans


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Emma, so who did you think he was? Spill the beans


reminds me of an ex member too  lets see what emma thinks


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm confused now, it don't take much


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

I am interested as well.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Tell me tell me..


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

This is a bit like waiting to find out who shot JR:dita:


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Emma, so who did you think he was? Spill the beans


Oh that would be telling wouldn't it!!!


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> This is a bit like waiting to find out who shot JR:dita:


  oh wait....... i think i'm too young to know what your on about :001_tt2: If you mean Phil Mitchell i can just about remember that one :lol:


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Ok, can we have guesses please?....... Ive not been here long enough, so some of you oldies will have to try and figure it out.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> Ok, can we have guesses please?....... Ive not been here long enough, so some of you oldies will have to try and figure it out.


Nothing to figure out. Not been a member here before.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Maybe we dont believe you


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> Maybe we dont believe you


 Fine, well have fun.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

This has just come up on my work feed.

Killer dog must be muzzled - More Wakefield News - Wakefield Express

Seems to match this story.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Attack Mode said:


> This has just come up on my work feed.
> 
> Killer dog must be muzzled - More Wakefield News - Wakefield Express
> 
> Seems to match this story.


Best outcome there could be if you ask me :thumbup:


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## lisa0307 (Aug 25, 2009)

Poor little mite...chills me to the core reading this


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

so that's it, £400 in legal fees and a muzzle for the dog who murdered another as the dog is a local celebrity, alls fair in the world it seems!


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> so that's it, £400 in legal fees and a muzzle for the dog who murdered another as the dog is a local celebrity, alls fair in the world it seems!


TBH i would prefer the owner of the yorkie got some compensation but apart from that i think it was a fair outcome. If the dog had no prior history then it was just a very sad incident which the owner of the Rottie should of handled a lot better.

What outcome would you want ?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Poor Yorkie. That is just so awful. I so feel for the owners.

400 costs and muzzled......thats not good enough at all. I am glad I dont live around there with my little ones. The muzzle wont prevent damage to a little dog like some of mine. Bones can easily be broken if he were to jump on a tiny dogs back.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

The fact that it was a first time means nothing tbh, it happened once, it could happen again.

The fact it is a well trained dog is what is quite disturbing i think as everyone always blames the owners in these attacks but clearly he is a well cared for and well loved dog but unstable in mind, therefore i think it would be safer for everyone if the dog, like in other cases, was destroyed.

I wonder why he wasn't? Is it the cute tricks he was always performing?

Poor yorkie and it's owners, what justice!


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> TBH i would prefer the owner of the yorkie got some compensation but apart from that i think it was a fair outcome. If the dog had no prior history then it was just a very sad incident which the owner of the Rottie should of handled a lot better.
> 
> What outcome would you want ?


You can not get compensation for a dog on dog attack, only costs.

The maximum punishment you will get in court is the dog being destroyed. However that will rarely be done for first offences. This is due to the fact it hinges on the prosecution having to proof the dog is dangerous, opposed to "out of control" as per the DDA.

If it's the first offence, then how can you proof the dog is dangerous? That is why it's rare for a first offence to end in destruction.

Going back to the maximum punishment. If the original order of the court is not obeyed, then the owner can be handed a £1000 fine and/or the dog destroyed.

But like I say above, the maximum that can be handed out in that 1st hearing is a destruction order, and the owner gets off with just costs.

So, this owner was unlikely to get a destruction order, if it was indeed Rocky's first offence. He got the most likely outcome, control orders served.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Well, I don't think it was a bad outcome at all. If this dog is such a 'local celebrity' then people will recognise him and if he's seen without his muzzle or lead, he is sure to be reported. The dog is then prevented from carrying out further attacks, he doesn't lose his life, the owner doesn't lose his dog.

If the rottie had been PTS on its first 'offence' then everyone would be complaining about the DDA and BSL and all that, yet because it hasn't been PTS, everyone is saying it's not good enough? 



chichi said:


> Poor Yorkie. That is just so awful. I so feel for the owners.
> 
> 400 costs and muzzled......thats not good enough at all. I am glad I dont live around there with my little ones. The muzzle wont prevent damage to a little dog like some of mine. *Bones can easily be broken if he were to jump on a tiny dogs back*.


But that could happen during play, not just an 'attack', I don't see how that's relevant


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Really....you dont see its relevant?

Not much I can say to that.........


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I don't see the relevance in it being a first offence.

It resulted in the BRUTAL death of another dog, it was no accident and clearly had intent.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I don't see the relevance in it being a first offence.
> 
> It resulted in the BRUTAL death of another dog, it was no accident and clearly had intent.


That's how the legislation works, and differs from the Dangerous Dogs Act.

So are you saying you would want the Dogs Act 1871 absorbed by the DDA?


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## Zayna (Apr 19, 2009)

I dont trust my dog lol. Shes an ex racer, anything small and furry comes within sight she is straight in 'prey mode'.. ears up, shaking etc. She is NEVER allowed off the lead and is muzzled at all times in public. She hates it and so do I but I know if a little dog ran up to her she'd kill it in seconds.
RIP that poor little dog. Those poor owners xx


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

WeimyLady said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> You don't hear of many Golden Retrievers ripping apart a small dogs.
> 
> ...


Uhm. You might not hear of Golden Retrievers ripping apart small dogs but by God it happens. I've seen a puppy that needed major surgery on its head because a Golden Retriever took its head into its mouth and just bit down hard. The pup was never right again. Also, I've seen Golden retrievers just turn, no warning, no growl, nothing.

ANY dog is capable of attacking other dogs and people.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> so that's it, £400 in legal fees and a muzzle for the dog who murdered another as the dog is a local celebrity, alls fair in the world it seems!


Oh for heaven's sake, the dog did not MURDER another dog!

What a totally ridiculous statement.

Do lions MURDER gazelle?

Do humans MURDER cows?

Murder is a HUMAN to HUMAN crime which requires several criteria to have been met to differentiate it from manslaughter etc

These sort of emotive, sensationalist statements are often seen on the gutter press but have no place in this sort of issue.

A dog killed another dog, probably due to Predatory Drift.

Have you never MURDERED an insect?


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

SpringerLex said:


> Uhm. You might not hear of Golden Retrievers ripping apart small dogs but by God it happens. I've seen a puppy that needed major surgery on its head because a Golden Retriever took its head into its mouth and just bit down hard. The pup was never right again. Also, I've seen Golden retrievers just turn, no warning, no growl, nothing.
> 
> ANY dog is capable of attacking other dogs and people.


A Goldie did this for example.










Photo taken from CWU Bite Back Campaign.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I don't see the relevance in it being a first offence.
> 
> It resulted in the BRUTAL death of another dog, it was no accident and clearly had intent.


Yes, the dog got up in the morning and cold bloodedly premeditated the planned death of another canine........................................


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Yes, the dog got up in the morning and cold bloodedly premeditated the planned death of another canine........................................


The main problem with your statements Emmaviolet is that you are anthropomorphising dogs and you can't do that. Dog's are NOT human. They have no concept of premeditation. The reason dogs attack other dogs is instinct. Their prey drive kicks in. It's as simple as that.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Yes, the dog got up in the morning and cold bloodedly premeditated the planned death of another canine........................................


No and thats the problem, the dog was well trained and then brutally attacked and killed a dog smaller then itself.

Clearly the dog is unstable as this is not a normal response, no matter how people try to sugarcoat it!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SpringerLex said:


> The main problem with your statements Emmaviolet is that you are anthropomorphising dogs and you can't do that. Dog's are NOT human. They have no concept of premeditation. The reason dogs attack other dogs is instinct. Their prey drive kicks in. It's as simple as that.


I never said the dogs actions were premeditated, i said murder, yes but i never implied the dog had planned this, however in his bite there was intent to kill and not just a warning to the other dog to go away etc, as you may see in other dog fights where the dog comes away without any cuts.

I think if a dog takes another dogs life then in all fairness that dogs life should be taken imo.

The poor yorkie owners have another dog, imagine being them and walking their dog and seeing the rottie out and about, how awful.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> No and thats the problem, the dog was well trained and then brutally attacked and killed a dog smaller then itself.
> 
> Clearly the dog is unstable as this is not a normal response, no matter how people try to sugarcoat it!


Nobody is trying to sugarcoat anything and you have no proof that the dog is unstable that is merely your uninformed opinion of a dog that you know nothing about.

What happened was dreadful and the dog has rightly had a control order put on it.

But perhaps we should go out and start putting down ALL dogs, cats and other animals that MURDER voles, rabbits, birds etc?

As surely these are ALL unstable animals and deserve the death penalty?


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> No and thats the problem, the dog was well trained and then brutally attacked and killed a dog smaller then itself.
> 
> Clearly the dog is unstable as this is not a normal response, no matter how people try to sugarcoat it!


It is a predatory response. Predator drive is higher in some breeds than others. If people actually did their research before buying a dog then they would know this and know that they should keep an extra eye on their dog. The dog was going with it's instinct. The owner was the one at fault for not properly restraining and controlling his dog. Plain and simple.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I never said the dogs actions were premeditated, i said murder, yes but i never implied the dog had planned this, however in his bite there was intent to kill and not just a warning to the other dog to go away etc, as you may see in other dog fights where the dog comes away without any cuts.
> 
> I think if a dog takes another dogs life then in all fairness that dogs life should be taken imo.
> 
> The poor yorkie owners have another dog, imagine being them and walking their dog and seeing the rottie out and about, how awful.


ONE of the definitions of MURDER is premeditation.

You cannot have one without the other.

Any animal that kills another is not "guilty of murder" just guilty of being a dog.

If a dog fight results in no cuts, it was not a FIGHT, it was merely a difference of opinion.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SpringerLex said:


> It is a predatory response. Predator drive is higher in some breeds than others. If people actually did their research before buying a dog then they would know this and know that they should keep an extra eye on their dog. The dog was going with it's instinct. The owner was the one at fault for not properly restraining and controlling his dog. Plain and simple.


So going on this then certain breeds should never be allowed offlead with other dogs or trusted reguardless how well they are trained as they will always have the prey drive that may well come out one day?

The dog was clearly a well trained one.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Interestingly this has just come up in my news feed.

Dog expert fears tragedy - More Wakefield News - Wakefield Express

A mention is made of prey drive.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> So going on this then certain breeds should never be allowed offlead with other dogs or trusted reguardless how well they are trained as they will always have the prey drive that may well come out one day?
> 
> The dog was clearly a well trained one.


Owners NEED to do their research before getting a dog. It all comes down to DEED not BREED. The problem is people get a dog on a whim, they do no reading, they have no idea the history or behaviour of their chosen breeds. I didn't get Springer Spaniels because I like to sit in all day doing nothing. I got them because they are an active breed and that's what I wanted.

A dog can do fun little tricks, roll over, bring your shoes to you all day long. A dog being able to do tricks doesn't make it fool proof.

This is what ticks me off these days. A dog bites and everyone calls for the dog to be put to sleep. The owner should be held accountable and charged to the fullest extent of the law because he failed to properly control his dog. End of story.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Never heard of the so called international expert and he appears to be confusing several different phenomena here.

That of Dog to Dog Aggression, Dog to people Aggression and Predatory Drift.

Which makes me question his credibility.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SpringerLex said:


> Owners NEED to do their research before getting a dog. It all comes down to DEED not BREED. The problem is people get a dog on a whim, they do no reading, they have no idea the history or behaviour of their chosen breeds. I didn't get Springer Spaniels because I like to sit in all day doing nothing. I got them because they are an active breed and that's what I wanted.
> 
> A dog can do fun little tricks, roll over, bring your shoes to you all day long. A dog being able to do tricks doesn't make it fool proof.
> 
> This is what ticks me off these days. A dog bites and everyone calls for the dog to be put to sleep. The owner should be held accountable and charged to the fullest extent of the law because he failed to properly control his dog. End of story.


But you can't have it both ways, his breed dictates prey drive, so in saying respect a prey drive and act accordingly your are saying BREED and bot deed.

His deeds were good for 4 years then this out of the blue. He had never shown aggression before.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> But you can't have it both ways, his breed dictates prey drive, so in saying respect a prey drive and act accordingly your are saying BREED and bot deed.
> 
> His deeds were good for 4 years then this out of the blue. He had never shown aggression before.


Where DO you get your ideas from?

Are you saying Yorkshire Terriers do not have prey drive or (ANY breed or NO breed)?

If terriers did not have any prey drive they would not have originally been designed to exterminate rats.

Gundogs not designed to retrieve game.

Sheepdogs not designed to herd sheep.

the list is endless.

PREDATORY DRIFT IS NOT AGGRESSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

When the men in the abbattoir kill pigs is NOT aggression

When birds catch mice and birds to eat it is NOT aggression.

PLEASE read some books on animal behaviour and learn something about what you are talking about!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Where DO you get your ideas from?
> 
> Are you saying Yorkshire Terriers do not have prey drive or (ANY breed or NO breed)?
> 
> ...


So what that dog did wasn't aggression?


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> So what that dog did wasn't aggression?


It has the hallmarks of PD. So if it was a PD caused attack then no it was not aggression.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Attack Mode said:


> It has the hallmarks of PD. So if it was a PD caused attack then no it was not aggression.


Does it? I thought there should be play or chasing for it to turn into PD.

Seems there is always an excuse for anything now though.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Does it? I thought there should be play or chasing for it to turn into PD.
> 
> Seems there is always an excuse for anything now though.


I refuse to restart my continual repeating again. 

But as said a few times in this thread, PD is also triggered by noises or movement. It does not have to come from a chase or play.

A video about PD in laymans terms.

Predatory Drift, a Layman&#039;s View on Vimeo

PD is something every dog owner should know about. It shocks me to find out what is in essence the main "make up" of a dog is not researched or simply pushed to one side.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

But it is much easier to put labels on dogs than to research and understand canine behaviour!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Well from the description of the op and of pd it doesn't seem like that's what it was at all.

I suppose then there are never any aggressive dogs, just pd then.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Well from the description of the op and of pd it doesn't seem like that's what it was at all.
> 
> I suppose then there are never any aggressive dogs, just pd then.


Post 9 is one of the few clues, how it was out of character. And that's just from the points made in this thread.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> But you can't have it both ways, his breed dictates prey drive, so in saying respect a prey drive and act accordingly your are saying BREED and bot deed.
> 
> His deeds were good for 4 years then this out of the blue. He had never shown aggression before.


My niece's rabbit got killed by next door's Yorkshire Terrier when he escaped from their garden to get to it. No different to the Rottie's state of mind at that moment I guess. Small fluffy yorkie, small fluffy rabbit.

Neighbours apologised profusely but what more could they do...everyone accepted although horrific that it was instinct (or PD if you like).


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

SpringerLex said:


> It is a predatory response. Predator drive is higher in some breeds than others. If people actually did their research before buying a dog then they would know this and know that they should keep an extra eye on their dog. The dog was going with it's instinct. The owner was the one at fault for not properly restraining and controlling his dog. Plain and simple.


If it was out of the blue though and without warning, how could the owner have restrained his dog?

There was no play and no growling and no history of attacks so there would have been no way for the owner to know.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

> QUOTE BY SPRINGERLEX......
> 
> Owners NEED to do their research before getting a dog. It all comes down to DEED not BREED. The problem is people get a dog on a whim, they do no reading, they have no idea the history or behaviour of their chosen breeds. I didn't get Springer Spaniels because I like to sit in all day doing nothing. I got them because they are an active breed and that's what I wanted.


Why do these threads all come up with the Deed not Breed comments. Who here has said anything detrimental to Rotties.....nobody. If it were another Yorkie that killed the Yorkie, I would still have the view that putting a muzzle on it was not the simple answer. A dog has taken another dogs life. Breed is irrelevant here, isn't it Whether prey drive or not......the dog still took another dogs life.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> If it was out of the blue though and without warning, how could the owner have restrained his dog?
> 
> There was no play and no growling and no history of attacks so there would have been no way for the owner to know.


Understanding Predatory Drift is a way for the owner to know.

that is why when I had two dogs I only let ONE off at a time to play with small dogs and kept a careful eye on them and these were only dogs which had been introduced carefully to each other.

I would never allow my dog to approach any dog I did not know let alone one that is much smaller than him.

I would say that it was common sense but unfortunately, as we have seen, common sense is not that common!


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

Lavenderb said:


> My niece's rabbit got killed by next door's Yorkshire Terrier when he escaped from their garden to get to it. No different to the Rottie's state of mind at that moment I guess. Small fluffy yorkie, small fluffy rabbit.
> 
> Neighbours apologised profusely but what more could they do...everyone accepted although horrific that it was instinct (or PD if you like).


Exactly. Fact of the matter is the owner of this dog should be held responsible. He should keep better control of his dog. I mean basic common sense...huge rottie, small yorkie.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> No and thats the problem, the dog was well trained and then brutally attacked and killed a dog smaller then itself.
> 
> Clearly the dog is unstable as this is not a normal response, no matter how people try to sugarcoat it!


Is a greyhound who kills a rabbit unstable?
Is a JRT who kills a mouse unstable?
Is a cat who kills a bird unstable?

How is it not a normal response for a predator to kill prey??



emmaviolet said:


> Well from the description of the op and of pd it doesn't seem like that's what it was at all.
> 
> I suppose then there are never any aggressive dogs, just pd then.


There are plenty of aggressive dogs out there.

Aggression is largely a fear based reaction that activates an entirely different part of the brain than when a dog is chasing, hunting etc.

Ever see a dog pounce on a toy, grab it, and shake it? Throw it in the air, grab it again and shake it again? You know what theyre doing right? Theyre killing the toy. And its FUN.

Entirely different from a dog whos barking and snarling at a stranger knocking on the door. Thats aggression. The dog wants the threat to go away. Theyre not having fun.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Entirely different from a dog who's barking and snarling at a stranger knocking on the door. That's aggression. The dog wants the threat to go away. They're not having fun.


Do you think the Rottie saw the Yorkie as a threat? Or do you think it pounced on the Yorkie for fun?


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2012)

chichi said:


> Do you think the Rottie saw the Yorkie as a threat? Or do you think it pounced on the Yorkie for fun?


I have no idea, I wasnt there, Ive never laid eyes on either dog.

What I do know is that all four of my dogs are hunters and if allowed will chase and kill small prey. They absolutely love every second of it, one will even toss and play with her catch before eating it.

What I do know is that none of my dogs are allowed to interact with small dogs. One misplaced paw in a play bow can seriously injure or kill a small dog. One of my mixed dogs I know is sound reactive, and if the small dog were to squeak, or yelp, he is very likely to drift right in to predation, and yes, for him its pure fun. Kind of like when he muzzle punches the cats and they squawk - he thinks that is awesome too. (The poor cats do not.)

Sometimes I think we are too far removed from our roots in nature. 
Why are people so freaked out by the thought that dogs do hunt, do kill, and do enjoy it? Its how theyre made. 
I guess if you live in suburbia or a concrete jungle, its easier to pretend that Fido is just a fluffy stuffed animal, but the reality is, theyre not. The more we understand about the true nature of dogs, and the more realistic we are about it, the better off we all are.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Rupert was both dog aggressive and predatory and there was a HUGE difference in how he behaved when his behaviour was caused by aggression and when it was predatory behaviour. He could be predatory towards small, fast moving dogs, once he realised they were dogs it changed to aggression. There was never that change in his behaviour towards cats, birds, sheep, rabbits etc. Two very different things imo.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> No and thats the problem, the dog was well trained and then brutally attacked and killed a dog smaller then itself.
> 
> Clearly the dog is unstable as this is not a normal response, no matter how people try to sugarcoat it!


Like others, I don't think that it indicates instability, but prey drive. Is Kilo unstable because he caught and killed the grouse he found in the ditch? Is he unstable because cats running from him get him really excited or other dogs recalling in training class? If they are still they don't concern him at all.

Tragic cases like this are why Kilo does not play with very small dogs - meet; interact if they are walking about calmly etc but run, chase etc no way. I don't want him to hurt the dog with one of his big clumsy paws in play and nor do I want the excited squeaking and fast movement of a small dog to trigger his prey drive.

I think that, if you watch a group of dogs playing, that we are lucky these things don't happen more. I saw a something in the park a while ago; there was a mixed group of dogs playing (including Kilo) and then someone came along with a tiny yorkie and let them into the group to play. Kilo went on the lead (much to the owner's indignation as his dog was friendly) but a whippet was way, way too interested in this dog, totally focussed on it every time it ran; yet both owners carried on chatting. I think if owners of small dogs were more aware and didn't do things like let them loose into a group containing a RR, whippet and staffy and larger dog owners were also more aware and kept their dog on a lead when needed we would hear of less sad cases like this.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Dogless said:


> Like others, I don't think that it indicates instability, but prey drive. Is Kilo unstable because he caught and killed the grouse he found in the ditch? Is he unstable because cats running from him get him really excited or other dogs recalling in training class? If they are still they don't concern him at all.
> 
> Tragic cases like this are why Kilo does not play with very small dogs - meet; interact if they are walking about calmly etc but run, chase etc no way. I don't want him to hurt the dog with one of his big clumsy paws in play and nor do I want the excited squeaking and fast movement of a small dog to trigger his prey drive.
> 
> I think that, if you watch a group of dogs playing, that we are lucky these things don't happen more. I saw a something in the park a while ago; there was a mixed group of dogs playing (including Kilo) and then someone came along with a tiny yorkie and let them into the group to play. Kilo went on the lead (much to the owner's indignation as his dog was friendly) but a whippet was way, way too interested in this dog, totally focussed on it every time it ran; yet both owners carried on chatting. I think if owners of small dogs were more aware and didn't do things like let them loose into a group containing a RR, whippet and staffy and larger dog owners were also more aware and kept their dog on a lead when needed we would hear of less sad cases like this.


I think the problem is there was no play or chase it was just a meet in this case.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I think the problem is there was no play or chase it was just a meet in this case.


Post 226 still stands from when this was last brought up.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

There was no play when Tink was attacked, She simply scuttled a few inches out of the way of the dog that was about to land on her ( jumping from a bracken covered bank. A few inches of moving in an undoglike manner was enough to make her appear as prey.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I think the problem is there was no play or chase it was just a meet in this case.


There didn't need to be with Rupert. All that was necessary was for him to spot potential prey and he was off after it.


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## SpringerLex (Jul 24, 2012)

I repeat what I said before...common sense...big rottie...small yorkie...


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

emmaviolet said:


> I think the problem is there was no play or chase it was just a meet in this case.


But we don't know how the meet went; did the yorkie make a sudden nervous or playful movement? A noise? Maybe something really small triggered the rottie's prey drive? If I had a dog that I knew would be triggered by such tiny things then I would have him onlead and muzzled I must admit; but maybe that day was a really tragic set of circumstances coming together.


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## Lavenderb (Jan 27, 2009)

Dogless said:


> Like others, I don't think that it indicates instability, but prey drive. Is Kilo unstable because he caught and killed the grouse he found in the ditch? Is he unstable because cats running from him get him really excited or other dogs recalling in training class? If they are still they don't concern him at all.
> 
> Tragic cases like this are why Kilo does not play with very small dogs - meet; interact if they are walking about calmly etc but run, chase etc no way. I don't want him to hurt the dog with one of his big clumsy paws in play and nor do I want the excited squeaking and fast movement of a small dog to trigger his prey drive.
> 
> I think that, if you watch a group of dogs playing, that we are lucky these things don't happen more. I saw a something in the park a while ago; there was a mixed group of dogs playing (including Kilo) and then someone came along with a tiny yorkie and let them into the group to play. Kilo went on the lead (much to the owner's indignation as his dog was friendly) but a whippet was way, way too interested in this dog, totally focussed on it every time it ran; yet both owners carried on chatting. I think if owners of small dogs were more aware and didn't do things like let them loose into a group containing a RR, whippet and staffy and larger dog owners were also more aware and kept their dog on a lead when needed we would hear of less sad cases like this.


Agree with this. With the age of the internet we've been opened up to a world where research and knowledge is easily available to us. How many people buy a dog and never try to understand its behaviour or just accept undesirable traits as being a 'dog'.

The 'predatory drift' theory would explain a lot of dogs behaviour. I guess the hardest part is going to be determining PD against 'aggression'. What about the dogs that have been pts for aggression....was it purely PD, something they couldnt help. 
What about people that keep more than one dog ...say a large breed and a small breed...is that now going to be considered a danger for the smaller dog?

To me it opens up a lot more research needing to be done into PD ...and is it going to be something that damages our expectations of a pet dog?

Because PD is something you can't predict, is it going to turn that cute fluffy puppy into a ticking time bomb?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Lavenderb said:


> Agree with this. With the age of the internet we've been opened up to a world where research and knowledge is easily available to us. How many people buy a dog and never try to understand its behaviour or just accept undesirable traits as being a 'dog'.
> 
> The 'predatory drift' theory would explain a lot of dogs behaviour. I guess the hardest part is going to be determining PD against 'aggression'. What about the dogs that have been pts for aggression....was it purely PD, something they couldnt help.
> What about people that keep more than one dog ...say a large breed and a small breed...is that now going to be considered a danger for the smaller dog?
> ...


I have been thinking along the same lines; the subject is fascinating. I don't think of Kilo as a ticking time bomb, but do know the type of dog he is and what triggers the kind of focus and intensity in him which means that I need to remove him from a situation - fast movement and high pitched noises turn him into a very alert dog indeed which tips into over excitement very easily (which in turn I would imagine could creep that bit further into aggression); something that is getting better as we work on it but will always remain part of his makeup I'm sure.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Lucky is only 6kg but if something smaller runs past or she spots birds she will attempt to chase and catch them. I believe that if she caught a bird, rat or rabbit etc then she would kill it. 
She also goes after butterflies and other little creatures and kills them. I know it seems insignificant but the behaviour is the same as when a larger dog views a small dog as prey. All PD. 

Very horrific thing to have witnessed. The owner should not have walked away from that.

No doubt larger dogs could see Lucky as prey. That's why I'm always cautious. She could run or make a certain movement that could trigger PD in another dog. She runs in and out of bushes and bounces around in long grass like a rabbit.

Reading things on here does make me extra cautious around other dogs. I know its probably the wrong attitude to have but the dangers are all too real.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I think the problem is there was no play or chase it was just a meet in this case.


Prey doesnt have to run away.
Prey doesnt even have to move.
Watch this video of a dog playing with a toy. Classic predatory behavior. He is killing the toy. And indeed this dog does hunt in a very similar way, he prefers to stalk and pounce on his prey. Note how often he stares at the unmoving toy and out of the blue pounces. I can see the same thing happening with a live animal.
The great cuz hunter - YouTube

OTOH, one of our danes is a runner and prefers to chase and catch. She likes to toss things in the air and catch them again and again. This is a toy she just threw up in the air, but she does this with field mice and rabbits too.









Different breeds tend towards different hunting styles - which is evident in their play styles too. Youll see some dogs love to creep and stalk each other, others like getting more physical and ricochet off each other with paws and shoulders. This is all good information to store away when paying attention to what might trigger predation in your individual dog.

We know for sure what some triggers are for predatory drift:
- sound. One of mine is triggered by the breathing of bachycephalic breeds like pugs. Other dogs are triggered by high pitched barking and yelping.
- movement. Quick movement away from the predator (sighthounds especially are known for this kind of prey drive). Movement that is not dog-like, or the shaking that some little dogs do is triggering for other dogs.

But there are also other triggers that we dont know of. My guess is that there is probably a scent trigger with some dogs. Or who knows. We dont have the same senses as dogs, so its really hard to say what the trigger is in some cases. I wonder if they have a sensitivity to vibrations in a way we do not. In the same way dogs seems to know about earthquakes? IDK, I just know that mine see prey miles before I do...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The video is a lot like how Spencer plays with toys (and stuffed Kongs and dead day old chicks). He'll also roll on them, not sure where in the predatory sequence rolling on your prey comes though lol.

Spen likes the chase but up close with live "prey" he has no idea what to do and just whines and wags his tail and sniffs them. He used to get in the guinea pig cage and lie down with them in his last home. Whether he'd go in for the kill if he caught up to something he was chasing I don't know. He plays chase with other dogs without a problem, both chasing and being chased and I don't see that there's a huge risk there.

Rupert never wasted time or energy "playing" with his prey. Stalk to within a reasonable distance, quick chase at full speed, quick kill, eat immediately. Or an opportunistic grab, quick kill, eat immediately. All very efficient.


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## xgemma86x (Feb 13, 2009)

Well im too tired to read through all of the replies but just thought id post and say I never did hear anything back from the police.

However,I have since seen the dog and his owner in the same area that the attack happened. This time he was on a lead and had a muzzle on. Admittedly I panicked a little as I still get the occasional flashbacks of the attack but i'll be ok. I didn't speak to the owner and nor do i intend to if I see him again.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

They were fined and the dog has to wear a muzzle. If you see the dog without it you can report them. They also walk at pugneys if you are trying to avoid them.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Jobeth said:


> They were fined and the dog has to wear a muzzle. If you see the dog without it you can report them. They also walk at pugneys if you are trying to avoid them.


You can't be fined for a dog on dog attack. He was ordered to pay £400 costs.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

Attack Mode said:


> You can't be fined for a dog on dog attack. He was ordered to pay £400 costs.


Mmmmmm. Well, this guy went to prison:

Owner jailed after attack in street (From The Bolton News)


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## Staysee (Oct 19, 2009)

Only just seen this, poor dog who got killed, it cant of been nice to see....i witnessed something similar when i was younger.


I made friends with ALL the dogs in the area i grew up in, i would sit at gates and talk to them, or when they were out walking ask if i could help, or volunteer to take them round the grassy area and play fetch, i loved them.

So one day a neighbour had her shitzu out playing in the grassy area and heard her phone ringing, me and my friend were there so asked us to continue playing with her dog, happily we did!

My friends mum called her in, dont know what for so was just me. I must of been....8 or 9 i reckon....possibly 10 years old but around that age. I threw the ball far and she chased it, at the bottom of the grassy area i saw a black dog....i dont know what ype but it ran up the grass to my neighbours dog, there was growling and a scuffle, so i ran down, as the black dogs owners ran up, they grabbed thier dog and got away just as i reached the shitzu, she was laid down and honestly, her eye was out of its socket and had a bloodied head and neck. I grabbed her and ran up just as her owner came up and she rushed her to the vets. Luckily she survived, but lost an eye. 

Never knew whose dog attacked her, but glad all she lost was her eye and not her life. She wasnt allowed out of the garden after that.


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## Attack Mode (Aug 13, 2012)

Ang2 said:


> Mmmmmm. Well, this guy went to prison:
> 
> Owner jailed after attack in street (From The Bolton News)


Because the judge believed he was lying under oath, which is an offence which can get you imprisoned.

He was not jailed for the dog on dog attack. he was jailed because the judge didn't accept his claim the dog had run off and not been found.

Also, the dog was ordered to be put down, but due to the fact the owner claimed it had disappeared, the time frame for this destruction order passed without the act being carried out.

This is another factor that can make offences become a criminal one. As can anything such as not obeying an order to muzzle, keep on a lead etc.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Honestly this is a fear I have for Sophie.

Many times dogs have charged at us, or jumped on Sophie and shes screaming and people think its funny. Its why I avoid all popular areas as its more a headache and to walks should be enjoyable.

Honestly if a dog attacked Sophie, Id be beating it with what ever I could get my hands on, my own safety would be out the window  There is one dog I do fear a gsd that lives across the road and a few doors up. Ive seen it get out an chase a little dog around a car, Its even charged the back yard fence when I walk Sophie that why the other day, the fence shaken with how hard it hit it. Honestly I would lose it if that dog came at Sophie.

I will admit I do pick up Sophie if I feel shed be better of in my arms then on the ground her safety comes first.


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