# GCCF Complaint



## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

I have received a GCCF complaint regarding a kitten I sold that died. In my opinion the new owners neglected the kitten, ignored all my advice and didn't seek veterinary attention until the day it died. However they are now putting the blame on me. I have submitted my opinion to the GCCF but of course I cannot prove the kitten was healthy! I just wondered if anybody else had any experience of this and how the GCCF looks at cases like this? I was devestated when the new owners told me what had happened and to now have this land on my doorstep when I have never sold an unhealthy kitten and the majority of my new owners keep in touch and are so happy with their new kittens, I feel like I must have done something wrong  the new owners won't tell me the cause of death and haven't had a PM done, and before it died all they'd told me was it had diarrhoea. I've even had a 3 day faecal test done on all my cats to make sure there are no parasites or bacterial infections going on, even though they are showing no symptoms!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

How long had they had the kitten?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> but of course I cannot prove the kitten was healthy!


It will however have had a veterinary health check 7 days prior to collection when it had a second vaccination. This veterinary record is your best independent evidence.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Out of interest, how do you find out there's a complaint? Do the GCCF write to you with a copy of the written statement?


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

They had only had it just over a week.
Yes of course. I have sent my statement back but never thought of that as in my head it was just the second jabs! 
The GCCF write to you with a brief description of the complaint and ask you to submit your side of things.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I have no idea how the GCCF work on such a complaint. Might be worth phoning on Monday and asking if you should have submitted a statement from your vet as all the kittens showed no signs of illness and were passed as fit at second vacs 7 days previously. Hopefully someone who knows how the system works will give more specific advice.



> The GCCF write to you with a *brief description* of the complaint and ask you to submit your side of things.


This I don't like. How can you answer the allegations against you if the GCCF condense it into a 'brief description'. Hopefully this is just a first stage for them to decide whether to investigate further.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Yes apparently I submit my response which is then put before the investigations committee who decide whether to drop it on carry on to the disciplinary procedure. The kitten did have a few days of diarrhoea just after his first vaccs, and me over reacting as usual took him to the vets for fluids and antibiotics! I won't stop doing the best for my kittens but of course that could look badly against me I suppose. Had I not bothered as much and never taken him he'd have a clear vets record which would have looked better for the GCCF so you can't win


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

You say you do a 3 day poo sample on all your kitten before they leave for their new home ... At what age was this done ?

As if this was done at 10 week you can submit this as evidence and also the 12 week check depending on the age of the kitten when it left you 

I would be asking for PM results as you don't really know what your dealing with


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I wouldnt think they have no chance without a pm been done but dont quote me.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

No I did the poo samples after the new owners informed me the kitten had died, as the only information I had was diarrhoea I wanted to rule out anything underlying in my adults but it came back negative. All the kittens had gone by then though so no results from them. If it goes to disciplinary I will certainly request PM results if they are to prove I sold an unwell kitten. But I have requested a written report from my vet for the health check at the time of second vaccination. 
I was advised the kitten had diarrhoea a few days after collection and wasn't using his litter tray but otherwise eating, drinking and playing. Advised recovery food, pro-kolin and confinement to smaller area with litter tray, to go to vets if no better and to keep me updated. Suspected diarrhoea due to new owners feeding kitten cooked lamb (no idea why), but the next I heard was he had died, and they did nothing I suggested and didn't take him to the vets until the day he died. I would have had him back immediately if they'd given me any indication he was that sick. Absolutely gutted about this, and then to complain to the GCCF seems out of order!


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> I wouldnt think they have no chance without a pm been done but dont quote me.


I agree, without any evidence how can they accuse you of selling an ill kitten, no proof from them and a clean bill of health from your vet when you had the kitten in your care.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

flosskins said:


> They had only had it just over a week.
> Yes of course. I have sent my statement back but never thought of that as in my head it was just the second jabs!
> The GCCF write to you with a brief description of the complaint and ask you to submit your side of things.


When you say they'd had the kitten for just over a week, do you mean it was just over a week between him leaving your care and his owner then losing him?


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> When you say they'd had the kitten for just over a week, do you mean it was just over a week between him leaving your care and his owner then losing him?


Yes that's right. I cannot work out how he went downhill so quickly which is why I was hoping for a PM diagnosis from the GCCF but if they have one I haven't received it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

flosskins said:


> Yes that's right. I cannot work out how he went downhill so quickly which is why I was hoping for a PM diagnosis from the GCCF but if they have one I haven't received it.


As I think Havoc said, it's incredibly unfair to expect any sort of detailed response from you when it appears that the owner is withholding information; certainly they are withholding it from you but it's unclear whether they've done the same with GCCF. Though, as galling as that is, in one sense it doesn't really matter because you can only respond with what you know to be the facts up to the day the kitten left you.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

flosskins said:


> Yes that's right. I cannot work out how he went downhill so quickly which is why I was hoping for a PM diagnosis from the GCCF but if they have one I haven't received it.


when kittens go downhill they do so very quickly especially id dehydrated with the runs.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Well the owner said there was no diagnosis from the vet so it may be they haven't paid for a PM. I have been advised diarrhoea, dehydrated and poor body condition. Sadly I guess with the size of a 13 week old kitten this can happen in days without any treatment. All I know is he was healthy when he left  
I don't know how it works with the vets report as they have a nurse do the second vaccination and all they log on the system is that it was administered, although she does check the kitten over. I guess they would log any health issues and nothing on the system indicates a health kitten


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't know whether it's common practice amongst vets but my own never fails to weigh my kittens at both 9 and 12 week vaccinations and records the weight against each kitten's details on his system. If your vet does this, it would certainly be a good indication of his body condition at the time he left you or thereabouts - and, given his symptoms, it would be difficult to imagine the new owner's vet not having weighed the kitten when their vet saw him.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I know it would be a difficult thing to ask without unnecessarily alarming the other kittens' owners, but I think it would be extremely helpful to you if you could obtain something in writing from each of the littermates' new owners to say their kittens were in good health, etc.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I know it would be a difficult thing to ask without unnecessarily alarming the other kittens' owners, but I think it would be extremely helpful to you if you could obtain something in writing from each of the littermates' new owners to say their kittens were in good health, etc.


That's a good idea, thank you. I will. I have a recent email from one new owner to say the kitten is thriving, complete with pictures but I will contact the other as well.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Hard as it is you have to step back a bit to realise why the owners have reacted in this way. They probably know they should have taken the kitten to a vet sooner so they'll be covering their own feelings of guilt. The easiest way to do this is to find someone to blame and you are the obvious target. Anger and blame are much easier to deal with than grief and guilt.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

There is another angle to this you know. If people had come in claiming that their new kitten had gotten sick and died within a week of purchasing, you'd all be recommending that they make the report, to save other people from going through the same heartbreak.

I'm not saying the OP is at fault, and she does have proof that she is selling healthy kittens. What I am saying is, isn't it good to know that this organization takes reports seriously. When you think of all the shady operations out there, selling sick and diseased animals, it makes you wonder sometimes.

Since OP has nothing to hide, she will be in the clear in time, though I imagine it feels crummy to be investigated. 

Call your breeding mentor or other breeders you know and ask them what they did, how they handled it, and the outcome, if they've ever been investigated.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

We unfortunately live in a culture where pointing the finger of blame is rapidly becoming the norm. :cursing: 

Maybe these owners don't feel there is any way the kitten could have got sick and died in just over a week, maybe this is what their vet told them. We don't know because so little information has been passed to the breeder  

I agree that it makes it rather difficult for the OP to write her side of things when they don't know quite what the complaint is about.

One other thing, I thought nurses could only give vaccinations in the presence of a vet, i.e. he would have to be stood there watching??


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Tigermoon said:


> We unfortunately live in a culture where pointing the finger of blame is rapidly becoming the norm. :cursing:
> 
> Maybe these owners don't feel there is any way the kitten could have got sick and died in just over a week, maybe this is what their vet told them. We don't know because so little information has been passed to the breeder
> 
> ...


weird thing the receptionist told me was that i could have kittens jabs done by nurse but the adult booster needed doing by the


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

I do agree there actuallly, and am glad the GCCF takes these things seriously and does look into it! I have invited them to come and visit my house and my cats for further information. 
Whether I have proof or not I don't know. I cannot use the weight comparison from the 2 vaccinations as sadly the vet doing the first vaccinations was a locum who couldn't use the computer system and got their weights mixed up, I pointed this out at the second vaccination but nothing was changed as it didn't seem relevant at the time. The things you kick yourself for later! 
And I can see the new owner must have been very upset. I guess I'm also angry with myself for making such a bad judgement and letting them have the kitten in the first place!
I guess in all honesty I'm scared they will find against me - they will look at the fact I took the kitten to the vets for diarrhoea and insisted on fluids etc even when it was particulary severe, and the fact I don't have the vet recorded weights, and decide that I have done something wrong. I take so much care over my kittens and although I haven't been doing this very long have had people come back for a second kitten and come to me after meeting one of my kittens that I would be so upset to have such a stain on my reputation. 
We shall see, but I will be in suspense for quite a while as the committee won't review it until 31st January! 
Thank you all for your support and suggestions, I will get as much information as possible from the vets and owners of other kittens. 

An update from one of the other new owners from the litter, sent to me only a couple of days ago, and a picture of him. So I know there wasn't anything wrong with the litter at least!
'Saturn - well, he's quite a handful and a little terror at times. I think Satan 
would be a more apt name on occasions. He's almost as big as Rosey already! 
He's still uber active and will happily play at any time of the day .....or 
night! But he's a seriously good looking kitten and so very, very affectionate. 
He's happy to have a cuddle and scratch 24/7. '


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> weird thing the receptionist told me was that i could have kittens jabs done by nurse but the adult booster needed doing by the


My vets do the first jabs by the vet and the second by the nurse as they figure anything major will have been picked up by the vet in the first place. So i guess a booster would have to be a vet as haven't been checked recently enough by a vet for it to be a nurse?


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Tigermoon said:


> We unfortunately live in a culture where pointing the finger of blame is rapidly becoming the norm. :cursing: QUOTE]
> 
> You are very right with this, and nobody ever takes responsibilty for anything. The new owners don't want to take responsibilty for not acting quickly enough and ignoring advice and the vet I assume doesn't want to take responsibilty for not being able to save the kitten. Therefore the person who is absent and easy to blame is the breeder. How many posts do we read where a vet has blamed a breeder with nothing to substantiate their claims!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

flosskins said:


> My vets do the first jabs by the vet and the second by the nurse as they figure anything major will have been picked up by the vet in the first place. So i guess a booster would have to be a vet as haven't been checked recently enough by a vet for it to be a nurse?


ah maybe.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

flosskins said:


> My vets do the first jabs by the vet and the second by the nurse as they figure anything major will have been picked up by the vet in the first place.


Hmm that's interesting. However personally I wouldn't allow a nurse to vaccinate my kittens because I want full veterinary healthchecks done each time including weights, after all it is three weeks between jabs and things can easily change in that time.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I wouldn't allow a nurse to vaccinate my kittens because I want full veterinary healthchecks done each time including weights, after all it is three weeks between jabs and things can easily change in that time.


I wouldn't either and it's a lesson hard learned for Flosskins. I also weigh the kitten in front of the owner as it's collected and write the date and weight on the vaccination document.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

havoc said:


> I wouldn't either and it's a lesson hard learned for Flosskins. I also weigh the kitten in front of the owner as it's collected and write the date and weight on the vaccination document.


I do this too.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> I also weigh the kitten in front of the owner as it's collected and write the date and weight on the vaccination document.


Ah, that's a good idea. I weigh kittens every week and write it in a log book, I usually end up doing the final weight on the day the new owners come but I could always delay until they arrive. I have noticed that my vet often writes the weights in the vaccination card at the time.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

havoc said:


> I wouldn't either and it's a lesson hard learned for Flosskins. I also weigh the kitten in front of the owner as it's collected and write the date and weight on the vaccination document.


I will definitely be doing this in future, getting the vets to write the weights on the vaccination cards and providing a weight record. Never thought of it before! All a learning curve I guess. The owner of the other kitten has emailed in reply to say

Tom is doing great! He's really settled in well and is quite personable. 
Everyone loves him and those who meet him think he is beautiful, really lovely 
colours. He doesn't mind the dogs at all and they are quite friendly together, 
sleeping buddies. He is also very attentive to us and follows our bedtime 
routine faithfully, which is cute of course!
We are really pleased at how he is doing.

so the others are well at least!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> I know it would be a difficult thing to ask without unnecessarily alarming the other kittens' owners, but I think it would be extremely helpful to you if you could obtain something in writing from each of the littermates' new owners to say their kittens were in good health, etc.


I was wondering the same sort of thing - whether there had been any complaints from other purchasers etc


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

lostbear said:


> I was wondering the same sort of thing - whether there had been any complaints from other purchasers etc


None at all, I've put the responses from both the other owners of this litter in this thread and both are very pleased and happy. There's a picture of one of the other kittens and he looks gorgeous.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

havoc said:


> Hard as it is you have to step back a bit to realise why the owners have reacted in this way. They probably know they should have taken the kitten to a vet sooner so *they'll be covering their own feelings of guilt. The easiest way to do this is to find someone to blame and you are the obvious target. * Anger and blame are much easier to deal with than grief and guilt.


It may also be very pragmatic - they've paid £X00, and have no kitten to show for it, due to their own stupidity - they may just be after cash, because tbh I would have thought anyone with a young kitten would be over-protective rather than otherwise.

Were the kittens insured? - many pets have a months free insurance with them, so maybe they were covered for that.

I would have thought that if the kitten left you in a state where it was unhealthy enough to be dead in a WEEK, then its littermates would have at least been ill, and all the evidence is to the contrary. Have you proof that they fed inappropriate food? (You mentioned cooked lamb). Whilst cooked meat isn't necessarily a problem, any sudden diet change is - if you have kept any e-mails in which they have told you this, especially if you have advised against it, will be useful

I do hope that you manage to get this awful, worrying situation sorted out. Ironically, if you were a BYB you would just tell them to stuff it - it's because you are an ethical breeder that this has caused you so much personal distress and worry.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lostbear said:


> It may also be very pragmatic - they've paid £X00, and have no kitten to show for it, due to their own stupidity - they may just be after cash, because tbh I would have thought anyone with a young kitten would be over-protective rather than otherwise.
> 
> Were the kittens insured - many pets have a months free insurance with them, so maybe they were covered for that.
> 
> ...


Good point, The kitten will (i assume)be insured..will it be covered via insurance though if problems have previously been noted on vets notes.Pre-existing condition.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Hope all works out for you

My vets do a thorough check up at 8 (vaccination), 10 (neutering), 12 (vaccination) weeks with a signed checklist of their health that goes in with their paperwork 
Never had a vet nurse administer a shot and wouldn't be allowing it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

People can do such strange things in these sort of circumstances. Several years ago I sold a kitten to an apparently very nice couple. Sadly, he died following an illness several months later. Completely out of the blue (some weeks previously I'd had an email and photos saying he was great, fine, etc) the wife rang me and this only having happened the previous day she was choked with tears and could hardly speak towards the end of the conversation. I said I would call her back in a few days when things were less raw to talk about it further.

Within two hours she called again and to say her demeanor was different would be an understatement - no tears this time, just a very raised voice, telling me I was to blame for the kitten's death, they were disgusted that I hadn't offered a refund during the first phone call. And so it went on, becoming clear they'd contacted the CAB and a solicitor in the two hours between their first call and the second and I solicitor's letter shortly thereafter.

So yes, people can do strange things when they're extremely upset and underneath it all wondering if they are to blame in some way.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> People can do such strange things in these sort of circumstances. Several years ago I sold a kitten to an apparently very nice couple. Sadly, he died following an illness several months later. Completely out of the blue (some weeks previously I'd had an email and photos saying he was great, fine, etc) the wife rang me and this only having happened the previous day she was choked with tears and could hardly speak towards the end of the conversation. I said I would call her back in a few days when things were less raw to talk about it further.
> 
> Within two hours she called again and to say her demeanor was different would be an understatement - no tears this time, just a very raised voice, telling me I was to blame for the kitten's death, they were disgusted that I hadn't offered a refund during the first phone call. And so it went on, becoming clear they'd contacted the CAB and a solicitor in the two hours between their first call and the second and I solicitor's letter shortly thereafter.
> 
> So yes, people can do strange things when they're extremely upset and underneath it all wondering if they are to blame in some way.


wow what happened next D?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

we love bsh's said:


> wow what happened next D?


There was the distinct possibility that the illness he suffered was a direct result of something he'd acquired whilst still with me though the waters were muddied by the fact that there was no post mortem and they had taken another kitten home on the same day as my own. Regardless, some blood tests showed their vet's diagnosis to be fairly sound and I never did have any intention of using technicalities to try and lay the blame elsewhere. The only reason I didn't discuss a refund with her during the initial call is because it would have been heartless and, in my opinion, completely the wrong time to discuss money.

So the second call deeply upset me and, admittedly, I was angry too afterwards. The kitten was actually insured under a very good policy but they felt that "morally" I should pay, not the insurer. The solicitors letter detailed the money they wanted as reimbursement of purchase price, their vet fees, pain and suffering, interest to be added to the total on a daily basis until I paid... and they wanted me to agree to be held legally liable, should their other kitten fall ill with the same disease in the future.

I was very lucky to have a kind and very knowledgeable person in helping me to respond to their solicitor's letter over the course of several months. They droppped it in the end. Quite sad really, as it was all so needless.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> There was the distinct possibility that the illness he suffered was a direct result of something he'd acquired whilst still with me though the waters were muddied by the fact that there was no post mortem and they had taken another kitten home on the same day as my own. Regardless, some blood tests showed their vet's diagnosis to be fairly sound and I never did have any intention of using technicalities to try and lay the blame elsewhere. The only reason I didn't discuss a refund with her during the initial call is because it would have been heartless and, in my opinion, completely the wrong time to discuss money.
> 
> So the second call deeply upset me and, admittedly, I was angry too afterwards. The kitten was actually insured under a very good policy but they felt that "morally" I should pay, not the insurer. The solicitors letter detailed the money they wanted as reimbursement of purchase price, their vet fees, pain and suffering, interest to be added to the total on a daily basis until I paid... and they wanted me to agree to be held legally liable, should their other kitten fall ill with the same disease in the future.
> 
> I was very lucky to have a kind and very knowledgeable person in helping me to respond to their solicitor's letter over the course of several months. They droppped it in the end. Quite sad really, as it was all so needless.


Totally,even i know you to be the most reasonable person going.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

So hard when a breeder wants to do the right thing but the other party sees it as an opportunity to profit. Greed never pays.


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> There was the distinct possibility that the illness he suffered was a direct result of something he'd acquired whilst still with me though the waters were muddied by the fact that there was no post mortem and they had taken another kitten home on the same day as my own. Regardless, some blood tests showed their vet's diagnosis to be fairly sound and I never did have any intention of using technicalities to try and lay the blame elsewhere. The only reason I didn't discuss a refund with her during the initial call is because it would have been heartless and, in my opinion, completely the wrong time to discuss money.
> 
> So the second call deeply upset me and, admittedly, I was angry too afterwards. The kitten was actually insured under a very good policy but they felt that "morally" I should pay, not the insurer. The solicitors letter detailed the money they wanted as reimbursement of purchase price, their vet fees, pain and suffering, interest to be added to the total on a daily basis until I paid... and they wanted me to agree to be held legally liable, should their other kitten fall ill with the same disease in the future.
> 
> I was very lucky to have a kind and very knowledgeable person in helping me to respond to their solicitor's letter over the course of several months. They droppped it in the end. Quite sad really, as it was all so needless.


Oh how awful for you, and I thought this was stressful! That sounds terrible. I'm glad they dropped it in the end. I do hope the people complaining about me do not decide it is an opportunity to make money. I supplied GCCF insurance with the kitten, however where my point to the GCCF is that I feel the new owners have not cared for the kitten correctly I do not know where the insurance will stand on this! I also feel it may not be covered as the kitten was treated for diarrhoea earlier.


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## danielle and thai (Oct 20, 2012)

flosskins said:


> before it died all they'd told me was it had diarrhoea. I've even had a 3 day faecal test done on all my cats to make sure there are no parasites or bacterial infections going on, even though they are showing no symptoms!


I had a siamese kitten that died on his first birthday, his only symptoms were diarrhoea, from the day I got him til the day he died. After numerous vet visits and test after test they still didn't find out the cause. After contacting the breeder she them proceeded to tell me that he wasn't just a single kitten but his littermates had died within days and weeks after birth. Then a couple of days later he cat had given birth and they were tabbies and not full siamese like she'd hoped then tried to palm one of them off on me as a "sorry". I don't think it's something a breeder does wrong it is one of few answers- the new owners, environment, underlying illnesses and genetics.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

flosskins said:


> I do hope the people complaining about me do not decide it is an opportunity to make money


I don't think you should worry overly about that. For people of ordinary, average means legal help is prohibitively expensive and I would imagine a bill could really mount up. 'My' people happened to be in a situation where they did not have to pay for legal help... or at an absolute minimum, put it that way.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

flosskins said:


> Oh how awful for you, and I thought this was stressful! That sounds terrible. I'm glad they dropped it in the end. I do hope the people complaining about me do not decide it is an opportunity to make money. I supplied GCCF insurance with the kitten, however where my point to the GCCF is that I feel the new owners have not cared for the kitten correctly I do not know where the insurance will stand on this! I also feel it may not be covered as the kitten was treated for diarrhoea earlier.


i dont know about the gccf insurance, i send mine out with petplan cover, which does cover them straight away for vet fees - however with both my queens I had to add extra cover with petplan to insure the purchase price, it didnt come as standard (and still doesnt cover anything to do with breeding)


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

All my breeding girls are insured with GCCF on the breeders plan which covered then for C section and their kittens for 20 weeks , Amber my home bred is covered for the price I was selling the kittens for at the time .. I use petplan for my kittens ..


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Cosmills said:


> All my breeding girls are insured with GCCF on the breeders plan which covered then for C section and their kittens for 20 weeks , Amber my home bred is covered for the price I was selling the kittens for at the time .. I use petplan for my kittens ..


Thanks for the info Cosmills will take a look.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

we love bsh's said:


> I wouldnt think they have no chance without a pm been done but dont quote me.


That's what I thought


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

Feeding a little kitten with cooked lamb! Why not pork then? Any mint sauce on top? How ignorant people can be? Thank you so much for sharing your problem. My queen is due in two weeks, I will be double careful picking the prospective owners for the future babies! By the way, if you communicated with the new owners via e-mails, you could use them as backup to prove your position, couldn't you?


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Kotanushka said:


> Feeding a little kitten with cooked lamb! Why not pork then? Any mint sauce on top? How ignorant people can be? Thank you so much for sharing your problem. My queen is due in two weeks, I will be double careful picking the prospective owners for the future babies! By the way, if you communicated with the new owners via e-mails, you could use them as backup to prove your position, couldn't you?


I know it is such a silly thing to feed a small kitten, strangely it wasn't something I had thought to warn against as I didn't realise anybody would be so stupid. I have got their emails luckily, only one helps me but it does say they didn't follow any of my advice and didn't take the kitten to the vets until the day it died so I have sent that to the GCCF as well. But it is definitely a lesson to everyone, but then judging somebodies character on a couple of conversations and one meeting is very difficult in my opinion!


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

flosskins said:


> I supplied GCCF insurance with the kitten, however where my point to the GCCF is that I feel the new owners have not cared for the kitten correctly I do not know where the insurance will stand on this! I also feel it may not be covered as the kitten was treated for diarrhoea earlier.


Regrettably, the GCCF insurance is provided by Agria. Agria are possibly the worst (certainly in the top 3) of companies that are dreadful to deal with in the event of a pet's death. In fact, they were the sole reason I started my website to provide help to people with pet insurance concerns. They've been investigated by both Watchdog and the Sunday Times for their practices.

But, as a side note, giving 4 weeks free insurance can cause the new owners much more trouble than it's worth because any policy they take out, even with the same company, will be treated as a new policy. As we all know, kittens and puppies frequently get minor problems like diarrhoea in their first few weeks and a new owner rushes them off to the vet. That immediately puts a 'previous condition' on their record. If they had taken out a full policy from the start it wouldn't matter - but there are many cases on this forum where the 4 week freebie has left an animal without insurance for this very reason.

Most breeders think they are doing the new owners a favour by providing this 4 week freebie when they may, in practice, be causing them a lot of grief.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

AlbertRoss said:


> any policy they take out, even with the same company, will be treated as a new policy. As we all know, kittens and puppies frequently get minor problems like diarrhoea in their first few weeks and a new owner rushes them off to the vet. That immediately puts a 'previous condition' on their record. If they had taken out a full policy from the start it wouldn't matter - but there are many cases on this forum where the 4 week freebie has left an animal without insurance for this very reason.


Your knowledge is vast compared to my own and I'd be grateful if you could clarify something for me; it came up in discussion elsewhere recently amongst breeders. Am I correct in believing that (let's say with Pet Plan because they are the company I use when issuing 4 weeks cover for my kittens) if the new owner takes a yearly policy with Pet Plan to run concurrently from the end of the 4 weeks cover, that there is no break in cover, i.e. there is no exclusion period at the start of the yearly policy?

And surely without the 4 weeks cover, even if a new owner arranged for cover to start on the day they collect the kitten, there is an exclusion period at the start of the policy.. usually 2 weeks or so I think?


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Your knowledge is vast compared to my own and I'd be grateful if you could clarify something for me; it came up in discussion elsewhere recently amongst breeders. Am I correct in believing that (let's say with Pet Plan because they are the company I use when issuing 4 weeks cover for my kittens) if the new owner takes a yearly policy with Pet Plan to run concurrently from the end of the 4 weeks cover, that there is no break in cover, i.e. there is no exclusion period at the start of the yearly policy?
> 
> And surely without the 4 weeks cover, even if a new owner arranged for cover to start on the day they collect the kitten, there is an exclusion period at the start of the policy.. usually 2 weeks or so I think?


I got 4 weeks free Petplan insurance with my 2 kittens. They had diarrhoea from the off and I had to pay the first £85 excess. The problem wasn't resolved after bacterial testing came back clear but I renewed/started a full one year policy with Petplan with no break in cover and the testing continued. I then had to pay the first £65 excess on the "new" cover but now my vets have claimed the rest, I have got a cheque from Petplan for the original £85 excess I paid out on the 4 weeks free.

There was no exclusion period for either the free 4 weeks or the "new"/continued year's policy and therefore the diarrhoea was NOT treated as a "previous condition" as it was ongoing and I stayed with Petplan

By the way, my 2 had TF and have been treated and are ok now (I hope)!

Thanks

Loopyloro
x


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

LOOPYLORO said:


> I got 4 weeks free Petplan insurance with my 2 kittens. They had diarrhoea from the off and I had to pay the first £85 excess. The problem wasn't resolved after bacterial testing came back clear but I renewed/started a full one year policy with Petplan with no break in cover and the testing continued. I then had to pay the first £65 excess on the "new" cover but now my vets have claimed the rest, I have got a cheque from Petplan for the original £85 excess I paid out on the 4 weeks free.
> 
> There was no exclusion period for either the free 4 weeks or the "new"/continued year's policy and therefore the diarrhoea was NOT treated as a "previous condition" as it was ongoing and I stayed with Petplan
> 
> ...


Thank you, that's very enlightening 

Good to read that you think the treatment has worked. Been talking elsewhere online about TF to a number of other breeders. A few seem very clued up whether they've ever had to deal with it or not. Most are aware of it but dreadfully lacking (as was I until reading plenty) in what the signs/symptoms/course of infection might be, particularly in cases where a cat is adult when first infected and may never develop diahorrea but still be a carrier.


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Thank you, that's very enlightening
> 
> Good to read that you think the treatment has worked. Been talking elsewhere online about TF to a number of other breeders. A few seem very clued up whether they've ever had to deal with it or not. Most are aware of it but dreadfully lacking (as was I until reading plenty) in what the signs/symptoms/course of infection might be, particularly in cases where a cat is adult when first infected and may never develop diahorrea but still be a carrier.


Sadly, the breeder I got my two from had never even heard of TF and I had to tell her about it!!! Now, she is refusing to test her current 7 or 8 kittens and 4 adult cats (3 queens and 1 stud) as she says her vet told her that if they show no symptoms, the PCR test will probably come back as a false negative. This is SOOOOO WRONG!! I had a huge row on the phone with her but finally had to admit to myself that this so called breeder will not test and I cannot make her do so. I only hope that her new kittens when they go to their new homes in December do not suffer like my two have (not to mention the fact that the new owners dealing with bloody, stinky diarrhoea for weeks on end while you try to find out the cause is horrendous).

Sorry, forgot to add - experts reckon that if the cat/kitten is showing no symptoms but then is placed in a new home (like when I brought my two home), stress can then make it "come out" and show as diarrhoea. They also reckon that after approximately 2 years or so (when a cat's immune system is better I suppose) the poop will harden. However, the cat will remain a carrier for life and will show diarrhoea sporadically.

I am now an expert in TF!!!

Loopyloro
x


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## AlbertRoss (Feb 16, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Your knowledge is vast compared to my own and I'd be grateful if you could clarify something for me; it came up in discussion elsewhere recently amongst breeders. Am I correct in believing that (let's say with Pet Plan because they are the company I use when issuing 4 weeks cover for my kittens) if the new owner takes a yearly policy with Pet Plan to run concurrently from the end of the 4 weeks cover, that there is no break in cover, i.e. there is no exclusion period at the start of the yearly policy?
> 
> And surely without the 4 weeks cover, even if a new owner arranged for cover to start on the day they collect the kitten, there is an exclusion period at the start of the policy.. usually 2 weeks or so I think?





LOOPYLORO said:


> I got 4 weeks free Petplan insurance with my 2 kittens. They had diarrhoea from the off and I had to pay the first £85 excess. The problem wasn't resolved after bacterial testing came back clear but I renewed/started a full one year policy with Petplan with no break in cover and the testing continued. I then had to pay the first £65 excess on the "new" cover but now my vets have claimed the rest, I have got a cheque from Petplan for the original £85 excess I paid out on the 4 weeks free.
> 
> There was no exclusion period for either the free 4 weeks or the "new"/continued year's policy and therefore the diarrhoea was NOT treated as a "previous condition" as it was ongoing and I stayed with Petplan
> 
> ...


The Pet Plan freebie isn't a 'Lifetime' policy. If you take out a Lifetime policy ('Covered for Life') with Pet Plan it IS treated as a new policy and they do treat previous conditions as existing. I've checked this out for several people - including myself - and the answer from Pet Plan is always the same: It's a new policy. It does seem that they will disregard existing conditions if you take their 'Essential' policy but, in all cases, it's a new policy which runs for a year from the point you take it. I had a puppy with diarrhoea on a 4 week freebie and when I came to take out a full lifetime cover with Pet Plan was told that any stomach problems would be excluded from future claims. (However, as tummy upsets are common in kittens/puppies it is quite possible to challenge this is a period of, say, 6 months goes by without problem).

It is also the case that Pet Plan change their policies, both in name and value, almost every year so what may be true at one point may not be true at a later date.

In regard to the 'non-coverable' time Pet Plan will usually run on the cover continuously. However, my advice to new owners is: If it's offered, take the free policy but then within 2 weeks, and preferably immediately, take out a full policy. Not everyone wants to continue with Pet Plan because of their high premiums and this will provide some protection against serious illness problems (accidents are normally covered from the start of the policy). It's also the case that if the new owner buys online they will normally get a discount which will equal or surpass the value of the 4 week freebie. Some dog breeders I know tell the new owners to start insurance 2 weeks before collection in order to avoid the problem.

A thread here shows someone else who had this problem (the poster with the problem was Lilylass).


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## LOOPYLORO (Oct 22, 2013)

I haven't got the Lifetime policy but that's interesting to know.

I am just happy that they have paid immediately with no questions asked AND I also managed to get 2 months free when taking out the yearly policy. As my vet fees and treatment costs so far have been in the region of £400 plus in total, I have already more than got my money back so to speak that I have spent out on 12 months insurance with them and I am now covered for 12 months as well. I will definitely shop around next year at renewal time as I am aware that Petplan are the most expensive.

Loopyloro
x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Unfortunately this particular case is complicated by the fact that the kitten was taken to the vet and underwent treatment prior to handover. This would have been a pre-existing condition anyway - always presuming the breeder filled out the online form correctly. It could get very messy if they didn't.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

wicket said:


> i dont know about the gccf insurance, i send mine out with petplan cover, which does cover them straight away for vet fees - however with both my queens I had to add extra cover with petplan to insure the purchase price, it didnt come as standard (and still doesnt cover anything to do with breeding)


I would never go with pet plan, we rang them last year for some prices just to compare with Agria our existing insurance and the guy on the other end of the phone was very unhelpful, spoke very broken English and was difficult to understand.
Agria on the other hand have always been very good with us, paid out promptly and when we lost Mia they paid out costs we had paid out for tests and her operation etc and also paid out the price we paid for her too. They are very helpful on the phone and we can't thank them enough for their help. Agria also pays out for breeding too if a c section is needed etc.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Petplan do a breeder policy as well, but I understand from a breeder friend that the kittens are covered as well by Agria (Petplan doesn't cover them), and the length of time the policy has to be in force before the expected date of kittening is shorter. It's 6 months with Petplan.


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## annieksa (Dec 9, 2013)

If I was in your position and a kitten I sold someone died shortly after they took it, I would most definetely show good will and promise them another kitten from a different litter down the road or give them a new kitten from the same litter if there were any remaining, this is sad for the new owners to have this happen and you could ease their pain a bit.


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## annieksa (Dec 9, 2013)

A cat should be sturdy enough at the time you release it that it could eat cooked meat and that shouldn;t be a reason for a healthy kitten to die, I had a 10 week old kitten have diahrrea and die shortly after-I still have no idea why it happened, I took him to the vet several times and did all that he suggested and there was just no saving the kitten, so these things happen.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

annieksa said:


> If I was in your position and a kitten I sold someone died shortly after they took it, I would most definetely show good will and promise them another kitten from a different litter down the road or give them a new kitten from the same litter if there were any remaining, this is sad for the new owners to have this happen and you could ease their pain a bit.


To me it depends why the kitten died - if it was because of the neglect of the owners (they apparently didn't take it to the vet until it was too late, remember) then there is NO WAY IN HELL that they would get another one on my kittens - EVER!

Lamb is a very rich and fatty meat, and even a sturdy little kitten tummy might find it hard to cope with if anything other than very tiny quantities were suddenly introduced into the diet. It is always by far the best policy to make dietary changes very slowly and carefully - and certainly if there was any adverse reaction the vet should have been consulted immediately. Why risk a little life unnecessarily.

Of course, the kitten may have had a health problem which wasn't apparent - but without a post-mortem, no-one would be able to determine that.

It is a very sad situation all round. I'm sure the owners are upset at losing their kitten, the breeder is upset at a dead kitten AND a complaint against her - and of course, the real loser is a poor baby cat who, for whatever reason, suffered and died without adequate vetinary care, which may not have saved him, but could have eased his suffering.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lostbear said:


> To me it depends why the kitten died - if it was because of the neglect of the owners (they apparently didn't take it to the vet until it was too late, remember) then there is NO WAY IN HELL that they would get another one on my kittens - EVER!
> 
> *Lamb is a very rich and fatty meat*, and even a sturdy little kitten tummy might find it hard to cope with if anything other than very tiny quantities were suddenly introduced into the diet. It is always by far the best policy to make dietary changes very slowly and carefully - and certainly if there was any adverse reaction the vet should have been consulted immediately. Why risk a little life unnecessarily.
> 
> ...


Exactly,wouldnt dream of giving that to any of my kittens id be asking for trouble.


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

annieksa said:


> If I was in your position and a kitten I sold someone died shortly after they took it, I would most definetely show good will and promise them another kitten from a different litter down the road or give them a new kitten from the same litter if there were any remaining, this is sad for the new owners to have this happen and you could ease their pain a bit.


I am sorry, do you breed pedigree cats? (I specify "pedigree" - because they are much more vulnerable than moggies). My Burmese girl just had babies a week ago. With cesarian, a dead kitten and all the worries. I did not sleep for 3 nights and still am on high alert. Things seem to be going OK now but even if this is the end of my troubles with this litter, which most probably it is not, I cannot even imagine handing them over to people who would not stick to the Feeding Sheet I give them and who are not ready to take the kitten to the vet at the fist sign of trouble. And money do not go into this. Hundreds, thousands - this is besides the point. And the point is - our kittens are our babies and if we hand them over to a person, he/she should treat them like their babies too. Otherwise just watch cats on videos on U-tube - that would not cause anybody any trouble, heart ache or financial loss.


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## korrok (Sep 4, 2013)

Kotanushka said:


> I am sorry, do you breed pedigree cats? (I specify "pedigree" - because they are much more vulnerable than moggies). My Burmese girl just had babies a week ago. With cesarian, a dead kitten and all the worries. I did not sleep for 3 nights and still am on high alert. Things seem to be going OK now but even if this is the end of my troubles with this litter, which most probably it is not, I cannot even imagine handing them over to people who would not stick to the Feeding Sheet I give them and who are not ready to take the kitten to the vet at the fist sign of trouble. And money do not go into this. Hundreds, thousands - this is besides the point. And the point is - our kittens are our babies and if we hand them over to a person, he/she should treat them like their babies too. Otherwise just watch cats on videos on U-tube - that would not cause anybody any trouble, heart ache or financial loss.


The poster in question just had trouble trying to breed BSHs: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/340604-cheated-british-shorthair-breeder-u-k.html


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

korrok said:


> The poster in question just had trouble trying to breed BSHs: http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/340604-cheated-british-shorthair-breeder-u-k.html


Sorry, you are right. Her suggestion sounds even more strange to me in this case.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Bite lip .. Very strange


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

Very pleased to say the GCCF have closed the complaint - no case to answer


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

annieksa said:


> If I was in your position and a kitten I sold someone died shortly after they took it, I would most definetely show good will and promise them another kitten from a different litter down the road or give them a new kitten from the same litter if there were any remaining, this is sad for the new owners to have this happen and you could ease their pain a bit.


With regards to this I have no intention of 'easing their pain'. They ignored all my advice and didn't take the kitten to the vets until it was so far gone there was nothing that could be done for it. I am furious with them and have no intention of letting them near another of my cats or kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Very pleased to say the GCCF have closed the complaint - no case to answer


Pleased for you  It must have been horrid having this hanging over you.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Very glad to hear that this sword is no longer hanging over your head. It's upsetting enough knowing that one of your cherished kittens has died without getting dragged through a complaints procedure.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

What a relief that must be for you


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## Kotanushka (Oct 25, 2013)

flosskins said:


> With regards to this I have no intention of 'easing their pain'. They ignored all my advice and didn't take the kitten to the vets until it was so far gone there was nothing that could be done for it. I am furious with them and have no intention of letting them near another of my cats or kittens.


I do wish there was a black list of BUYERS. Who would ease MY pain if they killed one of my trusting and cheerful rascals out of sheer stupidity and carelessness?


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