# Insurance and no papers



## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

Hello, I am just wanting some advice, I am thinking of purchasing a Maine Coon kitten. He would be a pure bred but would come with no papers. This is fine with me as he would only be a pet, he wouldn't be for showing or breeding.

My question is that I have just one to look at insurance for him and would I put him down asa a pure breed if I do not have paperwork?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

There’s no reason for a pet not to have the appropriate paperwork.
I’d walk away and find a reputable breeder who does things correctly.


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## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

Agreed, there's a high chance the kitten will not have been health tested for the genetic conditions found in the breed.


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

I have seen both the mother, father and their paperwork, they are TICA registered but not GCCF.


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## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

Are they TICA registered active?

Have you asked why the kitten won't come with paper work?


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

i didnt ask about them being tica active. but I did ask about paper work, but I don't understand what gccf and tica are.

My understanding is one if international and one is UK standards?


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

she said that 'Parents are genetically clear of hcm, pkd, pk-def, rdAc-pra, sma and blood grouped, evidence of which can be seen.'

I don't really understand any of this


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

You really do need to try to gain some understanding or find someone who can help you. As the breeder says evidence is available, ask for copies for all of those tests for both parents. There will, I am sure, be at least one person here who can help with looking at the test results


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## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

Being active registered means that they are suitable for breeding and that their pedigree lines can be seen, going back at least 4 generations. If they aren't registered active then it's possible that there is another breed or a moggy in the ancestry.

Have a look at this thread and see if it helps you out. https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/pedigree-papers.454267/


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

I have seen the chart 'family tree' of both. thank you for your help I will read through it, but as far as insurance goes, would I say it was a purebred without papers if I went along with it? im just checking all things out before I decide


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Berkie said:


> I have seen the chart 'family tree' of both


That's a meaningless piece of paper produced by the seller. Without seeing registration documents you have no idea if it's a work of fact or fiction. If these kittens are from a legitimate mating of cats approved for breeding then there's no reason not to register the kittens. This is true for both GCCF and TICA.

As for insurance, if you are buying this kitten in the belief it's a pure bred animal then that's what you must state for insurance. If you don't then it's the equivalent of claiming your car has a less powerful engine than it does to reduce your premium.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If the kitten *can* be registered I do not understand why it is not. If I were you, I would ask if you can have the paperwork to register it yourself. I think this is possible with TICA although I am only familiar with GCCF. Most breeders sell pedigree kittens with 4 or 5 weeks insurance.


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

QOTN said:


> If the kitten *can* be registered I do not understand why it is not. If I were you, I would ask if you can have the paperwork to register it yourself. I think this is possible with TICA although I am only familiar with GCCF. Most breeders sell pedigree kittens with 4 or 5 weeks insurance.


she mentioned pet plan insurance... ill look more into it, thank you for your advice


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I can help, I'm a new Maine Coon breeder.

Maine Coons need to be tested for HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy), SMA (spinal muscular atrophy), and PK Def (pyruvate kinase deficiency). They don't need to be tested for pra or PKD.

Both parents should be registered active with a governing body (GCCF, TICA, FIFe or CFA in the UK). GCCF is a UK only registry, the rest are international, but it doesn't matter which the parents are registered with as long as they are registered active for breeding.

You need to see their registration cards, for TICA it will be a piece of paper with the cats' names, breeder name, owner name, registration number, and colour. If the cats are active (that is with breeding rights to be bred from), there will be no indication on the TICA registration. If the parents are registered non-active (that is no breeding rights and therefore should be neutered and not breeding), it will say on the registration "Non-active".

For GCCF, it's a white piece of card with the same details, but they will specify either active or non-active.

Whether pet, breeding, or show, all Maine Coons kittens should be registered. Those not registered are from backyard breeders and you will have no protection. 

I'm happy to direct you towards an ethical breeder who can provide you with a registered Maine Coon kitten, a health guarantee, and lifetime support. 

Walk away from this kitten and breeder.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Berkie said:


> I have seen both the mother, father and their paperwork, they are TICA registered but not GCCF.


Both GCCF and TICA distinguish between cats registered active and non-active. If both parents are registered active the progeny can and (IMHO) *should* be registered, but normally non-active. I breed Orientals (and the occasional Siamese) and register all my kittens even though the majority of owners don't bother transferring the registration to themselves.

With GCCF the breeder should register the kittens, or give the new owners all the paperwork to register them. I believe with TICA a 'blue slip' is filled out by the breeder and goes with the kitten to the new owners who might or might not register the kitten.

https://tica.org/pt/faq/registrations



> she said that 'Parents are genetically clear of hcm, pkd, pk-def, rdAc-pra, sma and blood grouped, evidence of which can be seen.


Have a look at the Langford website, it explains what those acronyms mean though it only suggests testing Maine Coons for Maine Coon HCM, Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency (PKDef) and Spinal Muscular Atrophy (SMA).

http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagn...neral-info-breeders/list-feline-genetic-tests


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

this is a lot to take in.... I just want a large male kitten.i don't want to breed, I don't want to show, I want a pet.

My dog is a beagle and was from good lines, I paid a lot for him, his father had won cruft's the year I got him. He has had nothing but fatty lumps and issues. I had a moggy cat that live for 16 years with no issues at all is this just not a case of luck?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

It is not just a question of luck if your kitten inherits one of the genetic diseases.

If it is homozygous for PKdef it may live a fairly normal life or it may have a short, miserable one.

If your kitten has inherited only one HCM gene it is possible it will have heart disease and it is much more likely if the kitten is homozygous. If it is clear of that gene, yes it is bad luck if it has another form of heart disease.

If your kitten is homozygous for SMA it will show clinical signs from 3-4 months. As a consequence it will have a restricted life. Since it is possible to test, surely you would wish to avoid that.

If your kitten or its parents have tested clear of the inherited Maine Coon diseases you know you do not have to worry about them.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

For insurance purposes, I would be worried that they may not cover you for breed-specific conditions without evidence of them being clear of the genetic markers for the tests. But perhaps some of the pedigree owners can advise more on this.

Ultimately they could end up chasing your breeder for the specifics of those tests and if they have lied to you it will all come out and you'll be the one with the big bill.


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

I don't understand all of the letters and the diseases, im not sure where to go from here. I feel scared to death now. maybe I just don't get another cat at all. the parents have tested clear.

'Parents are genetically clear of hcm, pkd, pk-def, rdAc-pra, sma and blood grouped, evidence of which can be seen. '


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry to be suspicious but why would anybody test a Maine Coon for the rdAc form of PRA? It is not known to be in the breed. Similarly with PKD.


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## LeArthur (Dec 20, 2016)

HCM is Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy and it's where parts of the heart become thickened

PKD is Polycystic Kidney Disease which causes multiple cysts in the kidneys

PK-Def is Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency which reduces the number of red blood cells

rdAc-pra causes blindness

SMA is Spinal Muscular Atrophy and it causes the loss of nerves which control limbs

Hope you find that a bit helpful @Berkie.

Have you thought about getting a young adult cat from a rescue?


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

yes, but they are all black and white at the rescues near me. I want one different to my last so it doesn't remind me of him. and if I did that couldn't they have the same health problems?


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

Berkie said:


> I don't understand all of the letters and the diseases, im not sure where to go from here. I feel scared to death now. maybe I just don't get another cat at all. the parents have tested clear.
> 
> 'Parents are genetically clear of hcm, pkd, pk-def, rdAc-pra, sma and blood grouped, evidence of which can be seen. '


everyone is just trying to steer you clear of so-called "backyard breeders" who don't do things properly. They tell you evidence can be seen but a lot of people fabricate things.

The people I got my kitten (Joey) from said "mother can be seen" and yes we saw "the mother" but actually I have no evidence that the cat was saw was Joey's mum. In fact, I'm 99% sure she wasn't.

They also told me he had been health checked and was fine, and he had been flead and wormed. In truth, I found a couple of fleas on him myself, and he had a near-fatal parasitic infection. We narrowly avoided heartbreak and I got a £1700 vet bill (the 4 weeks pet plan they gave out had a two-week exclusion period on it for illness because they were not proper breeders and had NOT given him health checks etc. Proper breeders are able to offer "proper" insurance!!)

There's so many dodgy people out there when it comes to getting cats and kittens and they put all these things in the adverts to make everything seem above board but it may not be.

If you want a Maine Coon, take @Rufus15 up on the offer to find a lovely person who you know will have taken great care of your kitten-to-be. There's no better reassurance


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Berkie said:


> I don't understand all of the letters and the diseases, im not sure where to go from here. I feel scared to death now


Please don't be frightened. Be informed - it's why you came on a forum. I know it can be confusing and being bombarded with information can be overwhelming but give yourself time to take it all in.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

As others have said, ask to see the registration certificate of the sire and dam. If it says INACTIVE on one or both, then you know that person is a backyard breeder and the reason why the kittens are not registered is because they can’t not because they won’t. If this is the case, it means in essence that they are lying to you. If they are lying about registration, you have to ask yourself what other lies might they be telling you. There will be no guarantee this kitten is a purebred. Can you trust the health checks are genuine? By the sound of it, they are claiming to have had checks done, they don’t need. It sounds highly suspicious to me.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I wonder what age the breeder will keep the kitten to, and how much they will charge? Two clear marks of BYBs are letting kittens go unvaccinated at 8 weeks, and charging almost as much as for 13-week old vaccinated kitten. At 8 weeks they start eating as much as an adult, so letting them got a little bit 'cheaply' at 8 weeks makes money. Another clear mark is saying 'pets don't need papers', and charging a lot extra to register a kitten. The absolute most maximum it costs to register a kitten with the GCCF is £23, if the breeder doesn't have their own prefix and there was only one kitten in the litter.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

If parents are registered but kittens are not, we can assume that the parents are registered non-active and were sold by a breeder who expected the owner to neuter them by 6 months old. 

There are many reasons that they would be on the non-active register and shouldn't be bred from - hereditary illness, a genetic fault, all sorts. 

If you want a Maine Coon, I am happy to direct you to a breeder who can prove their cats are HCM, SMA, and PK Def negative, whose parents are active registered and are therefore of healthy breeding stock and good type for a Maine Coon (far too many are looking more and more like moggies due to poor breeding), with a good health guarantee as far as they can, and who will give you lifetime support with your chosen kitten.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I would also only support a breeder who HCM scans every 12-24 months, and gets the hips checked.
Hcm gene test is only one of many genes in a complicated disease, scanning is currently the best tool available for detecting changes.


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

Like I say, maybe I will just leave it. I've missed out on two I wanted whilst researching, I cant keep putting myself through this. Its only been 5 month since I lost my cat of 16 year. I know you all mean well but this has gone way off topic and way over my head. My job isn't to know about the breeding and research all of this, I work full time and have put too much time into this already, I work to get the money to buy the thing, look after it and pay insurance every month. I just expect things to be done right.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Berkie said:


> Like I say, maybe I will just leave it. I've missed out on two I wanted whilst researching, I cant keep putting myself through this. Its only been 5 month since I lost my cat of 16 year. I know you all mean well but this has gone way off topic and way over my head. My job isn't to know about the breeding and research all of this, I work full time and have put too much time into this already, I work to get the money to buy the thing, look after it and pay insurance every month. I just expect things to be done right.


Why not just go though breed specific rescue then?


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## snapper3009 (Jul 30, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Why not just go though breed specific rescue then?


Sometimes it can take months to get a cat from a rescue.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

If you expect things to be done right, then a byb is not the way to go. They can and do often do things incorrectly. My friend’s daughter purchased two kittens from a byb and she ended up spending a fortune on vet bills due to them being unwell when she got them home. They survived, thankfully.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

snapper3009 said:


> Sometimes it can take months to get a cat from a rescue.


It takes months to buy a kitten through an ethical responsible breeder, too. If the OP doesn't care about the ethics of the breeder, might as well go through rescue rather than support byb and risk the expense and heartbreak that is likely to follow.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

All you have to do is contact the Maine Coon Cat Club. Here's a link to their kitten list. It's not difficult.

http://www.maine-coon-cat-club.com/kittens/kittens/Kitten list.pdf


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

lorilu said:


> It takes months to buy a kitten through an ethical responsible breeder, too. If the OP doesn't care about the ethics of the breeder, might as well go through rescue rather than support byb and risk the expense and heartbreak that is likely to follow.


I have been trying to rescue one, I have been to all my local cat rescues and I have signed up to a maine coon one, but due to me having an elderly dog, and wanting a young cat, my chances are slim to none.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Okay just to say, personally, I wouldn’t buy from this breeder. No ethical breeder would sell a purebred kitten without papers. I think she’s a byb and if you are paying a lot of money for this kitten, then you are paying a lot of money for a moggie. We can only advise you not to do it, because:

A) You are putting money into the coffers of an unethical person
B) You cannot be certain the kitten is actually purebreed 
C) The health tests may not be genuine
D) it could end up costing you a lot more than you bargained for

You could ask the breeder to allow you to register the kitten and gauge her response. If she isn’t happy about it, then in all likelihood the kittens cannot be registered, because she’s bred them from unsuitable cats: cats an ethical breeder has decided are unsuitable.

If despite advice given, you choose to go ahead and buy from this person, then I would register the kitten as a domestic longhair, since without papers that is what it is. There is no evidence to the contrary. Having said this, insurance companies might think differently, so I would phone the insurance company and ask them.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

It is your responsibility to research these things, to do things right. Breeders don't just sell kittens at the drop of a hat to anyone, you have to wait. I'm sorry for your loss, it is heartbreaking to lose a baby, but please don't rush into buying just any kitten if you want a Maine Coon. 

Have you spoken to the rescue coordinators of the Maine Coon Cat Club and Maine Coon Breed Society. They place rescues with dogs where appropriate, but again you will have to wait. 

These are living animals, not a commodity you can buy in a shop.


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> It is your responsibility to research these things, to do things right. Breeders don't just sell kittens at the drop of a hat to anyone, you have to wait. I'm sorry for your loss, it is heartbreaking to lose a baby, but please don't rush into buying just any kitten if you want a Maine Coon.
> 
> Have you spoken to the rescue coordinators of the Maine Coon Cat Club and Maine Coon Breed Society. They place rescues with dogs where appropriate, but again you will have to wait.
> 
> These are living animals, not a commodity you can buy in a shop.


yes I filled in forms on Monday and a lady got straight back to me saying they very rarely get young cats in. usually over the age of 4 and ex breeders, so im probably best looking elsewhere. I don't mind an older cat if its used to dogs, it would in all honestly probably be easier for him that a kitten but I don't want a cat too old as I feel I wouldn't have as long with it.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I understand the problem you are having with rescues. I belong to a breed rescue group on Facebook and I must admit, I’ve yet to see a cat come up for adoption where it doesn’t say “no other pets”. It seems to be the mantra of many a rescue organisation, unfortunately.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Berkie said:


> yes I filled in forms on Monday and a lady got straight back to me saying they very rarely get young cats in. usually over the age of 4 and ex breeders, so im probably best looking elsewhere. I don't mind an older cat if its used to dogs, it would in all honestly probably be easier for him that a kitten but I don't want a cat too old as I feel I wouldn't have as long with it.


A lot of breeders rehome ex breeding adults, so it's worth going through the two breed club breeder lists and asking the breeders on there. Also attend shows to meet breeders and discuss options. 4 is still young, Maine Coons live between 15-20 years.


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## Berkie (Aug 14, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> A lot of breeders rehome ex breeding adults, so it's worth going through the two breed club breeder lists and asking the breeders on there. Also attend shows to meet breeders and discuss options. 4 is still young, Maine Coons live between 15-20 years.


Thank you my last cat was 16 years old when he went and that wasn't enough, were talking if they live to that age, as I say I may leave it now. I cant keep getting my hopes up and being let down or someone else getting in there first. I understand you may need to wait months or years to get one form good breeder but in reality I don't know where I will be in that point in life. my dog is getting old now and I will be left with no animals.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Berkie said:


> Thank you my last cat was 16 years old when he went and that wasn't enough, were talking if they live to that age, as I say I may leave it now. I cant keep getting my hopes up and being let down or someone else getting in there first. I understand you may need to wait months or years to get one form good breeder but in reality I don't know where I will be in that point in life. my dog is getting old now and I will be left with no animals.


I appreciate your situation, in which case I suggest a rescue


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Berkie said:


> Like I say, maybe I will just leave it. I've missed out on two I wanted whilst researching, I cant keep putting myself through this. Its only been 5 month since I lost my cat of 16 year. I know you all mean well but this has gone way off topic and way over my head. My job isn't to know about the breeding and research all of this, I work full time and have put too much time into this already, I work to get the money to buy the thing, look after it and pay insurance every month. I just expect things to be done right.


I'm sorry you find this all so overwhelming. However as with any purchase beyond the mundane, it is up to the buyer to do their research and those who don't are more likely to get stung. A quick look through the adverts on a well-known site shows many dubious and dodgy breeders, without the research a buyer can't tell them from the good and even great, so the uninformed will be probably be scammed.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

I'm not sure where you have seen the initial cats who you have missed out on, but if on Gumtree or similar you are honestly better off. Please, please believe me on that. I have been where you are and we got a "siberian cross" kitten; we paid over the odds for a moggie who had a severe illness. I love him to bits, I can't put a price on his value to me, but if I did it all again from the start I would steer far away from Gumtree or similar sites. That said, I believe we found Joey for a reason and saved him from probable death, and we got his sellers investigated by the RSPCA (they also pretend to breed "Bengals" that are "TICA registered").

There will absolutely be a cat or kitten out there for you  One of the main reasons it takes a while to get them from breeders though is because often people get to meet the kittens when they are younger than they will actually be released, and this is a good thing, as you may meet a kitten anywhere up to 8 weeks old but good, safe breeders will keep them until 12-13 weeks because they know it's best for the kitten. The wait is worth it. All of these terms people are using about health checks etc sounds incredibly overwhelming but it all basically translates to having assurance about the health of your kitten for the duration of their life. A few months' wait is worth it for the numerous years of love you will share together.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

QOTN said:


> Sorry to be suspicious but why would anybody test a Maine Coon for the rdAc form of PRA? It is not known to be in the breed. Similarly with PKD.


TICA have collaborated with Genoscoper lab (My Cat DNA) to offer at a reduced rate for DNA testing to be done, as part of a trial. They sequence the cats DNA and check against all the known genetic mutations. As I was one of the first people to sign up, it only cost me a little more than getting the PkDef test done for my queen. I was interested to find out if she carried the amber gene. Therefore she has been tested for white spotting gene, burmese head defect etc.

I can post a bit more about it in a seperate thread if anyone is interested rather than hijack this one.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Earlier this year I brought home my first pedigree kittens. Like you I wanted something completely different after having our last 4 till 17-20 years so as it not to feel like we were replacing them. 
It really will be worth it to do some research into why to get a registered cat (not just 'pedigree') and what questions to ask the breeder re genetic testing etc. If they state the parents are registered but the kittens won't be this often means the parents were sold by their breeders as 'non active' meaning not to be bred and so the kittens cannot be registered, you have to question the ethics of those people and what other corners they may be cutting. The gccf website is very helpful, from looking if the breeder has a prefix (for this specific governing body) and info on each cat breed stating what diseases they might be prone to and what genetic tests may have been done by the breeder to prevent these.
It was also important to me to find a breeder that actively showed, I just think this adds another level of commitment.

You could contact some breeders to see if they have waiting lists you could be put on if you find you keep missing out.
I was in contact with my breeder for a couple of years as I wanted a specific colour, female and was also waiting for the right time for me. When I emailed this year she had a girl a couple of weeks old, she put her on hold for me till she was old enough for us to view (8 weeks old). I knew I loved her the moment I saw her so placed a deposit till she was ready to leave at 13 weeks after both vaccinations had been done by the breeder.

Do take the time to digest what everyone has said here and please don't rush into anything. 
I personally believe the choice should be a reputable breeder or rescue, there's no inbetween. 
I hope that helps in some way.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Arny said:


> It was also important to me to find a breeder that actively showed, I just think this adds another level of commitment


I take real exception to this. Decades of commitment to breeding, to mentoring, to the breed club, to showing and you've decided that because I reached the point of not wanting those long journeys and early mornings after thirty years of 'actively' showing that I'm not committed enough for you.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

havoc said:


> I take real exception to this. Decades of commitment to breeding, to mentoring, to the breed club, to showing and you've decided that because I reached the point of not wanting those long journeys and early mornings after thirty years of 'actively' showing that I'm not committed enough for you.


Sorry I really didn't mean to cause offence, perhaps I should say alongside experience. What I was more meaning was from when I was first looking, mostly on fb sites, many of those that were less concerned with health testing and type etc but still registered were those that didn't show (but had never shown). I'm sure a huge generalisation but was just my observation.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I know you weren't looking to cause offence but seriously, anyone with a registered cat can enter it in a show. Doesn't mean they've put a minute of commitment into anything but title chasing.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Nor does it mean they know nothing about their breed. Showing is incredibly useful, especially to new breeders but also even for experienced breeders, for learning the standard of their breed and the various ways it can be interpreted. Personally, I would go to a breeder that shows far and away above one that doesn't. Showing entires is not about title chasing, that's left to the neuters.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

havoc said:


> I know you weren't looking to cause offence but seriously, anyone with a registered cat can enter it in a show. Doesn't mean they've put a minute of commitment into anything but title chasing.


In my breeds, I have always been amazed how few exhibitors are familiar with the SOP. It would often save them money if they read them before entering their cats in shows. (I don't mean those who wilfully ignore the standard because they prefer an alternative type and hope the judge agrees.)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

QOTN said:


> In my breeds, I have always been amazed how few exhibitors are familiar with the SOP. It would often save them money if they read them before entering their cats in shows.


Well if all they have to do to impress potential kitten buyers is enter shows - because apparently they don't care about it becoming a champion - it's easy to see why. Don't have to bother joining a breed club, helping out at shows, sitting on the committee or the BAC etc. Just turn up with your cat having let others do all the work and you're the hero. Was ever thus


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

I'm really sorry, I know its not as simple as that and I should have expanded on that point.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Arny said:


> I'm really sorry, I know its not as simple as that and I should have expanded on that point.


I don't think said anything wrong, just shows who shows and who doesn't 



havoc said:


> Well if all they have to do to impress potential kitten buyers is enter shows - because apparently they don't care about it becoming a champion - it's easy to see why. Don't have to bother joining a breed club, helping out at shows, sitting on the committee or the BAC etc. Just turn up with your cat having let others do all the work and you're the hero. Was ever thus


Of course, because no one who shows could possibly also volunteer to help at shows, join and support the breed clubs, sit on the committee as well, all they're interested in is chasing titles


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

At least you’ll have plenty of buyers for your first litter when you have it if it’s what’s important to buyers


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Closing this for now, because OP hasn't been back since Wednesday and seems to have made up her mind.

If anything changes, or anyone disagrees, I'm happy to re-evaluate.


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