# Johnson to ask Queen to suspend Parliament



## Happy Paws2

Is he frighten that parliament will stop No Deal Brexit ?


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## Boxer123

I think so we are living in very un certain times I find it quite concerning.


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## Guest

I had a quick look to see what is happening on my lunch break and he is doing it so he can open a new session of UK Parliament with a Queen's speech, isn't this normally the practice in the UK Parliament with a new UK Prime Minister taking over?


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## kimthecat

I find this all very scary.


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## Jesthar

saartje said:


> I had a quick look to see what is happening on my lunch break and he is doing it so he can open a new session of UK Parliament with a Queen's speech, isn't this normally the practice in the UK Parliament with a new UK Prime Minister taking over?


Not when the PM is replaced mid term, no. Theresa May didn't do it after Cameron did a bunk. Usually only happens after Parliament is dissolved for a General Election.

Anyway, I think which ever way people originally voted we can at least agree that there go the wheels from the 'Brexit is about returning control to Parliament' element of the debate.


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## Guest

Jesthar said:


> Not when the PM is replaced mid term, no. Theresa May didn't do it after Cameron did a bunk. Usually only happens after Parliament is dissolved for a General Election.
> 
> Anyway, I think which ever way people originally voted we can at least agree that there go the wheels from the 'Brexit is about returning control to Parliament' element of the debate.


Boris is using a UK Royal Prerogative though so if the UK Queen signs it off today UK Parliament cannot stop it happening. So they would have to move quickly next Tuesday when the UK Parliament reopens to put forward ways to try and stop Brexit. The UK Parliament has no say in suspending the UK Parliament this way only the UK Privvy Council and the UK Queen do.


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## Jesthar

saartje said:


> Boris is using a UK Royal Prerogative though so if the UK Queen signs it off today UK Parliament cannot stop it happening. So they would have to move quickly next Tuesday when the UK Parliament reopens to put forward ways to try and stop Brexit. The UK Parliament has no say in suspending the UK Parliament this way only the UK Privvy Council and the UK Queen do.


Oh, I agree it's legal. But taking power _away _from Parliament in such a manner does make a noteable mockery of one of the supposedly main arguments for wanting Brexit


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## kimthecat

The Queen apparently can technically say No but its not likely she will.


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## Guest

Don't get me wrong in anyway. I would like the UK to remain and would have voted this way if I remained a UK citizen but life took me down a different path and I became a Dutch citizen.


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## MollySmith

I'm glued to the news. More here on what Prorogation is here.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tion-prorogue-parliament-boris-johnson-brexit

And this is the petition that's been set up (it was 14,000 at 12pm to give an idea of the volume of protest.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157

Many opposition MPs from across the parties are saying they will remain the House of Commons. Scary but also remarkable times. I am so genuinely surprised that there hasn't been an uprising and more civil unrest. I'm pleased there hasn't been, it's not fair to the police.


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## MollySmith

This is important. It does't matter what our views are on Brexit, this coup is wrong.


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## LinznMilly

MollySmith said:


> I'm glued to the news. More here on what Prorogation is here.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tion-prorogue-parliament-boris-johnson-brexit
> 
> And this is the petition that's been set up (it was 14,000 at 12pm to give an idea of the volume of protest.
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157
> 
> Many opposition MPs from across the parties are saying they will remain the House of Commons. Scary but also remarkable times. I am so genuinely surprised that there hasn't been an uprising and more civil unrest. I'm pleased there hasn't been, it's not fair to the police.


Signed.

I'm 293,304th signatory.


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## Jesthar

LinznMilly said:


> Signed.
> 
> I'm 293,304th signatory.


It's over 315,000 now!


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## MollySmith

It's madness to watch that petition it's climbing and climbing in 500 increments every few seconds.


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## Guest

The UK Queen has just approved the UK Prime Ministers request to suspend Parliament.


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## Jesthar

saartje said:


> The UK Queen has just approved the UK Prime Ministers request to suspend Parliament.


She doesn't have a choice, really, as a constitutional monarch. But I'm sure she privately appreciates the irony...


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## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> I'm glued to the news. More here on what Prorogation is here.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tion-prorogue-parliament-boris-johnson-brexit
> 
> And this is the petition that's been set up (it was 14,000 at 12pm to give an idea of the volume of protest.
> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/269157
> 
> Many opposition MPs from across the parties are saying they will remain the House of Commons. Scary but also remarkable times. I am so genuinely surprised that there hasn't been an uprising and more civil unrest. I'm pleased there hasn't been, it's not fair to the police.


although, obviously, ive signed,
is there really any point?
by the time it gets to be, possibly, debated
the point will be moot anyway

As for the civil unrest, i will wait and see, but hope for the best


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## Lurcherlad

It’s so he can fulfil the result of the Referendum as voted by the UK population.

The MP’s opposing the wishes of the Majority.

They should be honouring the Referendum.


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## rona

Chew them up and spit them out


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## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> although, obviously, ive signed,
> is there really any point?
> by the time it gets to be, possibly, debated
> the point will be moot anyway
> 
> As for the civil unrest, i will wait and see, but hope for the best


Agree on both points. I signed because it makes me feel like there some way to object and seeing the numbers go up is less annoying than having to stare at the odious Johnson's mug lying mug all over the news.


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## rona

Well, Nigel is ready to be PM if Boris fails


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## MollySmith

Jesthar said:


> She doesn't have a choice, really, as a constitutional monarch. But I'm sure she privately appreciates the irony...


She has to by the wishes of the PM but he has to have the backing of the House which Johnson of course hasn't based on the actions of the opposition parties and Tory Rebels. And who is the Lord of the privy council... Jacob Rees Mog. It shows how powerless the monarchy are.


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## kimthecat

It said on the BBC news that techinically the Queen can say no .
Id like to bash Boris and Jerrys heads together. Boris is playing a dangerous game. Jerrys complaining that Boris is a PM elected by a small majority of people , Jerry was elected as a head of a party by a small majority people and llamas


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## MollySmith

Parliamentary sessions are begun with a Queen's speech. Traditionally a Parliamentary session lasts 12 months. Our current one is the longest in 400 years, it started in 2017. 

Johnson argues that he is bringing forward a new programme of legislation which warrants a new Parliamentary session. 
It is usual to prorogue Parliament (stop it sitting) between sessions. In recent times usually a week or so. Can be up to a month.
Parliament would go into recess (holiday) for party conference season on the 12th anyway. This lasts 3 weeks. So in a way, Johnson can argue that what he's doing isn't so different from the norm anyway. A 3 week recess for conferences and then a week long break before the Queen's speech.

However the timing is somewhat suspicious. It leaves no time for a general election before we leave the EU on October 31. It leaves very little time for MPs to debate Brexit before Parliament 's doors close for 5 weeks and there had been talk of scrapping conference season because, you know, talking while Rome burns. This obviously now can't happen. MPs will be locked out of Parliament for 5 weeks whether they want to be or not. And a government of national unity (not that there is any unity anywhere) is impossible because MPs can't get together to organise it.

Also note that the Privy Council's Lord President is... Jacob Rees-Mogg. Appointed to that role by... Boris Johnson. 

If anyone really thinks this is democracy then really... heads out from arses might be a good move. This is handing power to a man who has been accused of harassment, racism who thinks nothing of referring to gay men "bumboys," and compared Muslim women to "letterboxes." If you think that's okay, then f**k me, you're as deluded as he is.


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## cheekyscrip

Lurcherlad said:


> It's so he can fulfil the result of the Referendum as voted by the UK population.
> 
> The MP's opposing the wishes of the Majority.
> 
> They should be honouring the Referendum.


Referendum was not for No Deal?
Leavers were assured it is not going to happen?
We will get a good deal with EU of course.
Only minority of The People wanted ERG in power or Extreme Brexit.
It is very much not delivering.
But it was very predictable outcome and reason why I didn't support Brexit.

We will trade being a part of EU community for being vassals of USA led by Trump.

Happy now?
That was The Will of The People?

I don't believe we have 52 % of ERG lovers.

Everyone on low pension, unemployed, mid to low income, disabled, or with large family should be scared.
Everyone who needs NHS and state education should be scared.

Yes, BoJo will tell you he delivers exactly what you voted for...

You still don't believe the country will be much poorer and lots of jobs lost?


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## MollySmith

Read this bearing in mind what Boris Johnson has said about anyone who isn't a white male
https://m.dw.com/en/the-law-that-enabled-hitlers-dictatorship/a-16689839


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## rona

Boris won't be around long enough to worry about him. That's the benefit of our system over the EUs


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## Pawscrossed

Protests around UK are:
London
Parliament Square, from 5pm

Birmingham
Victoria Square, 5.30pm

Liverpool
St George’s Plateau, 5.30pm

Milton Keynes
Station, 6pm

Chester
Town Hall, 7pm

Manchester
Albert Square, from 4pm

Edinburgh
The Mound, from 4pm (moving to Holyrood at 4.30pm)

Cambridge
Market Square, from 6pm

Cardiff
Aneurin Bevan Statue, from 6pm

Durham
Marketplace, from 6pm

Bristol
College Green, 5.30pm

Brighton
Bartholomew Square. 5.30pm


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## Pawscrossed

Lurcherlad said:


> It's so he can fulfil the result of the Referendum as voted by the UK population.
> 
> The MP's opposing the wishes of the Majority.
> 
> They should be honouring the Referendum.


The No Deal bit? I don't think anyone knew about that!!

I've tried to find out if No Deal was part of the vote in 2016 and I can't see where it was so it's a bit odd that you think this is a result of a Referendum. It is not the same one I voted in!

Channel 4 talked about this as well.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...ce-that-dominic-raab-warned-of-no-deal-brexit

"FactCheck has searched the Vote Leave website, Mr Raab's personal site, various BBC web pages, online newspaper archives, YouTube and elsewhere.

We've listened to as many clips as we can find of interviews given by Mr Raab and Mr Gove between February 2016, when the EU referendum campaign unofficially began, and the vote on 23 June 2016.

We can't find an interview where Mr Raab warned explicitly about the possibility of a no-deal Brexit during the referendum campaign."


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## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> Boris won't be around long enough to worry about him. That's the benefit of our system over the EUs


Boris's legacies will be.


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## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> Boris's legacies will be.


If his legacy is getting us out of the EU then bring it on


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## kimthecat

I can remember when Boris was first voted in as Mayor of London and people outside London were laughing because they thought he was a buffoon but those who were Londoners knew he wasnt. I remember Owlish, a member of Dog pages who lived in Central london and I think she was involved in politics , she said he was dangerous . He's my MP and I don't trust him .


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## rona

kimthecat said:


> He's my MP and I don't trust him


Do you trust any of them?

Lot of self serving ***********


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## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> Do you trust any of them?
> 
> Lot of self serving ***********


He is definitely totally self serving utter ****.
Bring it on?

Really?

Britain a playground for Eton boys?

Really?

Fox hunting and all that?

Racist, bigot and Trump's poodle?

He has great faith in BoJo too.


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## kittih

MollySmith said:


> It's madness to watch that petition it's climbing and climbing in 500 increments every few seconds.


Increasing by 1200 every minute currently. 

The petition may or may not make a difference but it is still good to see that over 3/4 million people agree.


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## kimthecat

rona said:


> Do you trust any of them?
> 
> Lot of self serving ***********


You might have a point. Some I trust more than others.


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## cheekyscrip

Petition signed. Close to 800 000 now.


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## KittenKong

Lurcherlad said:


> It's so he can fulfil the result of the Referendum as voted by the UK population.
> 
> The MP's opposing the wishes of the Majority.
> 
> They should be honouring the Referendum.


That's just an excuse and you know it. It goes way beyond just leaving the EU.

Besides, what was promised in the referendum is not what is now being offered. Leaving without a deal was never on the agenda.

With your argument, those compensated for being mis-sold PPI should be forced to pay it back as it was their will to take out PPI in the first place.


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## cheekyscrip

I see only one way to stop that madness.

National occupational strike.



Peaceful. Non violent. Determined.


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## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> That's just an excuse and you know it. It goes way beyond just leaving the EU.
> 
> Besides, what was promised in the referendum is not what is now being offered. Leaving without a deal was never on the agenda.
> 
> With your argument, those compensated for being mis-sold PPI should be forced to pay it back as it was their will to take out PPI in the first place.


Think about this too. Issues such as Foxhunting are unpopular amongst Parliament.

Would they use this method as an excuse to deliver such policies, knowing it would probably fail to be passed?

*This is a right wing power grab.*


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## rona

They were all going on their jollies over most of this period anyway 

https://www.local.gov.uk/parliament/party-conferences-autumn-2019


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## MollySmith

A reminder of what was also promised by Boris to his own party.


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## KittenKong

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166731526953938945


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## KittenKong




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## KittenKong




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## JANICE199

*Has anyone seen Jonathan Pies latest video on this subject? I can't post the link because there,s a lot of swearing.*
*But it is worth watching, so funny and true. *


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## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 414929


What is it with your total obsession with finding quotes that align people with Hitler?
BJ et al may be first class knobs, but Hitler they aint, and, tbf, brexit and kristallnacht are about as far away from each other as you could get, within the same universe


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## Magyarmum

mrs phas said:


> What is it with your total obsession with finding quotes that align people with Hitler?
> BJ et al may be first class knobs, but Hitler they aint, and, tbf, brexit and kristallnacht are about as far away from each other as you could get, within the same universe


An interesting article you might like to read on the same topic!.

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...nless-it-seems-youre-a-hardcore-remainer.html

Published: August 29, 2019

554 comments

*'Words have consequences.' Unless, it seems, you're a hardcore Remainer.*








By Mark Wallace

Last updated: August 29, 2019 at 11:22 am









"The word Reichstag is now trending on Twitter," noted the _Observer's_ Toby Helm.

*Related Articles*

Chris White: The Government has pitched Remainer MPs into a race against time
The Prime Minister's full prorogation letter to Conservative MPs
WATCH: "We're not going to wait until 31st October before getting on with our plans to take this country forward"
Johnson calls his opponents' bluff
Johnson's "very active environmentalist administration" won't please some green campaigners
John Crace of the _Guardian_ - fresh from a rather strained comparison between Nigel Farage and either Stalin or Hitler - retweeted a passage from _The Handmaid's Tale_ referring to the establishment of a theocratic dictatorship by a terrorist group via the suspension of the United States Constitution.

Paul Mason told a crowd of Remain protesters in Westminster that "if Boris Johnson seizes power from Parliament, I promise you we will never have another free election in this country", and got them to swear a bizarre oaththat "at 12 o'clock on Saturday, we are coming for you, Boris Johnson".

The _Independent_ declared the announcement of a Queen's Speech prorogation a 'coup'.

Kate Osamor - the charming Labour MP who infamously told a _Times_ reporter "I should have come down here with a bat and smashed your face in" - compared the Queen doing her perfectly proper constitutional duty by not meddling in politics to the last King of Greece's active political involvement in sparking a military coup in his country.

At a '#stopthecoup' rally yesterday evening, Owen Jones, himself a recent victim of political violence, summoned up the imageryof the spilt 'blood of our ancestors' and branded the Prime Minister a 'tinpot would-be dictator'. He tweeted that the issue was now a 'war' which 'we are going to fight with everything we've got' (though his speech and ensuing column go on to urge 'peaceful civil disobedience').

The Best For Britain campaign even suggested that the monarch ought to remember the fate of Charles I.

Elsewhere in hardcore Remain circles, you could find every OTT analogy you might imagine. This was a mash-up of Peterloo and Kim Jong Un. It was Hitler's Enabling Act revived. It was fascism, communism, and any other available totalitarianism, both historical and fictional.

As I've written in the past, I don't mind a vivid analogy or an emotive turn of phrase. I may even have been guilty of committing some myself on occasion. But haven't we just spent years being told in ever more self-important tones that "words have consequences", and therefore everybody must take great care in their speech?

I can recall plenty of times hearing that the language of betrayal used by angry Brexiteers towards politicians who break their promises is actively dangerous; that military analogies or terms of any sort are equivalent to threats of violence; and that for a newspaper to characterise rebellious Tory MPs as 'mutineers' constituted a direct incitement of threats towards them.

At times this crusade for more dull language has become even sillier. A year ago Owen Jones (the very same) protested that Chuka Umunna's call for Jeremy Corbyn to 'call off the dogs' was part of 'a dehumanising narrative used against…Labour members'. 'Party members are not dogs,' he noted, helpfully eliminating any lingering doubt.

They can't really have it both ways. What would the reaction of the above people be to Nigel Farage whipping up a crowd to chant 'we are coming for you' about a named political opponent? Or if pro-Brexit pressure groups tweeted darkly about the execution of the Queen? Would they see it as harmless to be accused not of being merely wrong but of being would-be dictators, on the very cusp of irreversibly establishing tyranny?

Do they still believe that 'words have consequences', or is that only applied to words they disagree with?


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## Magyarmum

*News Thump

Thursday 29 August 2019 by Neil Tollfree*

*Johnson Government downgraded to junta*









*The current Johnson Government has officially been reclassified as a junta following yesterday's decision to suspend Parliament.*

Johnson himself has been reclassified as a Tin-pot dictator, which is defined as 'a dictator with abnormally low levels of competence in the job'.

"The Johnson Government? It's on a par with one of those fictional, corrupt governments you'd find in a Harrison Ford film," explained Eleanor Gay, a Professor of dreadful governments at Oxford University.

Many people have claimed that the government should actually be known as a 'corrupt dictatorship'.

"No, I don't think we're quite there yet," said Professor Gay.

"Johnson hasn't yet organised any purges of intellectuals or shut down any news outlets. We haven't seen any 're-education' camps set up anywhere, although there have been reports of building work outside Coventry, so we'll see what that is."

Remarkably, some people seemed content to live in a junta run by a Tin-pot dictator.

"Living in under a junta is exactly what I had in mind when I voted Tory," said Simon Williams, a credulous idiot from Cheshunt.

"I don't mind the suspension of Parliament, and I'd welcome the rounding up of intellectuals, foreigners and undesirables because I'm not in any of those groups.

"Frankly, I'm hoping he brings in a Thought Police because if, like me, you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear."

It is understood that Johnson is unconcerned with his government being reclassified as a junta and is currently demanding his cabinet refer to him as 'Dear Leader' and his trying to figure out exactly how many sons he has in order to organise a line of succession.


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## Satori

Go BoJo! Our finest PM since the great Iron Lady. Long may he reign.


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## mrs phas

Satori said:


> Go BoJo! Our finest PM since the great Iron Lady. Long may he reign.


Much as it sticks in my craw to say it

I think history will mark Margaret Thatcher as one of the most courageous and strongest leaders we've had.

I know strong union men (and women), plus many in the north and wales will hate her, unto their death, and beyond
but
she will have a lasting legacy,in history, as the PM that 
put the lights back on, 
broke the closed shops, 
kept a bastion out of enemy hands, 
Gave 1000s of working class people the chance of their own owned home, 
and,
got the country working again

BJ is just a lickspittle toad


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## Satori

mrs phas said:


> Much as it sticks in my craw to say it
> 
> I think history will mark Margaret Thatcher as one of the most courageous and strongest leaders we've had.
> 
> I know strong union men (and women), plus many in the north and wales will hate her, unto their death, and beyond
> but
> she will have a lasting legacy,in history, as the PM that
> put the lights back on,
> broke the closed shops,
> kept a bastion out of enemy hands,
> Gave 1000s of working class people the chance of their own owned home,
> and,
> got the country working again
> 
> BJ is just a lickspittle toad


Indeed, but given the quality of government leadership these last four decades the descriptors "lickspittle toad" and "finest PM since" are not necessarily mutually exclusive.


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## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 414926
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1166731526953938945


Either Javid is another bare faced hypocrite, or natural born liar.

This only from June.


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## Jesthar

mrs phas said:


> Much as it sticks in my craw to say it
> 
> I think history will mark Margaret Thatcher as one of the most courageous and strongest leaders we've had.
> 
> I know strong union men (and women), plus many in the north and wales will hate her, unto their death, and beyond
> but
> she will have a lasting legacy,in history, as the PM that
> put the lights back on,
> broke the closed shops,
> kept a bastion out of enemy hands,
> Gave 1000s of working class people the chance of their own owned home,
> and,
> got the country working again
> 
> BJ is just a lickspittle toad


It's worth noting that until the Falklands crisis, Thatcher was regarded as a failing, even disasterous PM. In effect, Argentina saved her premiership, and made her unassailable for quite some time. With hindsight it's easy to think that the outcome of the Falklands was never in doubt due to British superiority, of course, but one does wonder how things might have fallen differently if the Argentinians had scored a few more Exocet hits and sent some carriers to the ocean floor.

Aside from the home owning part (which, of course, also greatly contributed to the lack of council housing stock today as what was sold was not replaced), how much of the other examples can be directly attributed to her personally is open for debate.

And as an aside, speaking with my union rep hat on, I fully agree the unions needed reining in a lot at the time, but there were better ways to do it than the hostile and confrontational tactics employed (yes, by both sides). The legacy has been the 'us vs them' mentality that persists to this day between employers and unions, rather than the mutually beneficial partnership approach adopted in other countries such as Germany. If Mr Johnson and his sidekicks make good on their promises to scrap 'business red tape' post Brexit then things may well get very interesting in this department.


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## KittenKong




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## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 415050


https://fullfact.org/law/proroguing-parliament/

*What does proroguing parliament mean?*


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## MollySmith

kittih said:


> Increasing by 1200 every minute currently.
> 
> The petition may or may not make a difference but it is still good to see that over 3/4 million people agree.


It's cathartic- that was the word I meant to use! Like @rona said, probably no government to give a toss but I felt better for signing it.


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## MollySmith

I’m not in the least bit arsed about who votes what way with Brexit. It’s the precedent that it sets, it effectively means for 5 weeks no government to do anything and regardless of Brexit, there are other matters in parliament. The climate, austerity, schools, the NHS... endless big stuff and smaller things that should be being debated but won’t be. 

It effectively allowed Boris or any PM to do this at any time. Even if, and it’s an unlikely if, the House gets to discuss Brexit exit terms (and judging by the outcry on all sides, it seems that it won’t be), there is the worry of what the Queen’s speech will contain. 

Boris is being very canny about what it contains but it seems so far to be about changing the operation of Government and that can only be in his interest. That, to me, is a bigger worry as whatever this odious, racist and outdated bully proposes could remove ever more democracy. Show me someone who trusts Boris, and show you a liar or a fool.


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## mrs phas

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 415050


no point
mines so far up BJ's backside, im surprised I cant see him every time BJ opens his mouth


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## cheekyscrip

MollySmith said:


> I'm not in the least bit arsed about who votes what way with Brexit. It's the precedent that it sets, it effectively means for 5 weeks no government to do anything and regardless of Brexit, there are other matters in parliament. The climate, austerity, schools, the NHS... endless big stuff and smaller things that should be being debated but won't be.
> 
> It effectively allowed Boris or any PM to do this at any time. Even if, and it's an unlikely if, the House gets to discuss Brexit exit terms (and judging by the outcry on all sides, it seems that it won't be), there is the worry of what the Queen's speech will contain.
> 
> Boris is being very canny about what it contains but it seems so far to be about changing the operation of Government and that can only be in his interest. That, to me, is a bigger worry as whatever this odious, racist and outdated bully proposes could remove ever more democracy. Show me someone who trusts Boris, and show you a liar or a fool.


All the Tories who voted him a PM?

Those who will benefit of lower taxes for the rich and who rather not have MIFID II supervision.

No fools . They trust ERG , BoJo is just the loudspeaker.

Fools are all not so rich who need NHS, state schools and state pensions or things like employment.

Who could not find better leaders of opposition than Corbyn.

Fools are those trade unions who sabotaged Remain.

Because obviously the immigrants are to blame for stealing the jobs, the benefits, overcrowding in schools and hospitals.

Don't worry, they will be still there to blame if Brexit is not unicorns and rainbows.

Still, they can be locked in workhouses like SportDirect or Amazon.


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## KittenKong




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## Pawscrossed

It has become very urgent to escape. I have applied everywhere, writing out dozens of letters. I've dug out forgotten relatives living in other countries and approached friends of friends.


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## Pawscrossed

_The ideas under consideration include the following:
_

_Attempting to disrupt a Commons debate on Northern Ireland power-sharing due on Sept. 9, a day which could be used by rebels to attempt to delay Brexit. It is described by Johnson allies as a "time bomb" set for them in the final weeks of Theresa May's premiership.
_
_Determining whether Johnson would be breaking the law by ignoring any successful rebel legislation or refusing to resign in the event he lost a vote of no confidence.
_
_Using a variety of mechanisms, including a potential budget, to create new Commons debates and further reduce time for rebels to act.
_
_Using the prorogation of Parliament to "kill the bill" by rebel MPs and force them to table it again after the Queen's Speech on Oct. 14.
_
_Creating new bank holidays to prevent the House of Commons from being recalled during the prorogation period.
_
_Filibustering any bill by rebel MPs attempting to force Johnson to delay Brexit when it reaches the House of Lords.
_
_Ennobling new pro-Brexit peers as a last resort to kill any such bill in the Lords.
_
_Exploring what the consequences would be if Johnson advised the Queen not to give royal assent to any legislation passed by Parliament delaying Brexit._

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickha...BhFml1o_KMdVtrOwU4EQmnipIHE-kuKjUVBmb6iVMVZY4


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## MollySmith

A really positive march here, no troubles, no arrests.


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## KittenKong

MollySmith said:


> A really positive march here, no troubles, no arrests.
> 
> View attachment 415147


Where were you Molly? I was at the Newcastle event yesterday and have seen some great images of the London, Leeds and Bristol events too.


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## KittenKong

This was my favourite in Newcastle yesterday. Simple yet clearly directed at Johnson.


----------



## kimthecat

Just seen a bit on the BBC news of the London demo , two small tots in a massive crowd forced to hold up a poster about Bojo for the cameras. They looked bewildered. Fancy using your children like that .


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> If his legacy is getting us out of the EU then bring it on


Even with a no deal?


----------



## Elles

It’s only no withdrawal deal. We’ll still trade with the Eu and there’ll be actual trade deals pronto. Trying to get an agreement through parliament before we leave is impossible, there are too many public servants in positions of power who want to prevent any kind of Brexit.


----------



## Pawscrossed

mrs phas said:


> What is it with your total obsession with finding quotes that align people with Hitler?
> BJ et al may be first class knobs, but Hitler they aint, and, tbf, brexit and kristallnacht are about as far away from each other as you could get, within the same universe


Speaking as someone whose ancestors were caught up in Kristallnacht, my grandmother and many of her peers are recording their histories so that there isn't a repeat. History is there to be learned from not dismissed as something past with no relevance. We are lucky we do have the space to protest. I have relatives who were awarded the iron cross by Germany but lost their lives in Belsen. It's an extreme parrallel granted but Brexit is become a beating stick on immigration and friends of some twenty years living and working in this country being told they have to leave all they have known, their pets and homes, it's not far from the truth.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Magyarmum said:


> They can't really have it both ways. What would the reaction of the above people be to Nigel Farage whipping up a crowd to chant 'we are coming for you' about a named political opponent? Or if pro-Brexit pressure groups tweeted darkly about the execution of the Queen? Would they see it as harmless to be accused not of being merely wrong but of being would-be dictators, on the very cusp of irreversibly establishing tyranny?
> 
> Do they still believe that 'words have consequences', or is that only applied to words they disagree with?












At least it's words and not Farage with a gun....


----------



## Pawscrossed

Or this


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well David Cameron, a fine mess you have got us into, hope your proud of yourself.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Elles said:


> It's only no withdrawal deal. We'll still trade with the Eu and there'll be actual trade deals pronto. Trying to get an agreement through parliament before we leave is impossible, there are too many public servants in positions of power who want to prevent any kind of Brexit.


Are you Jacob Rees-Mogg?


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> Are you Jacob Rees-Mogg?


Lol no, I wouldn't want to be either. I voted remain.


----------



## Magyarmum

Pawscrossed said:


> View attachment 415228
> 
> 
> At least it's words and not Farage with a gun....


Just to keep the record straight. I didn't make the remark it was taken from an article I posted!


----------



## mrs phas

Pawscrossed said:


> Speaking as someone whose ancestors were caught up in Kristallnacht, my grandmother and many of her peers are recording their histories so that there isn't a repeat. History is there to be learned from not dismissed as something past with no relevance. We are lucky we do have the space to protest. I have relatives who were awarded the iron cross by Germany but lost their lives in Belsen. It's an extreme parrallel granted but Brexit is become a beating stick on immigration and friends of some twenty years living and working in this country being told they have to leave all they have known, their pets and homes, it's not far from the truth.


If you had relations that went through this you'd know just what a fatuous and factually incorrect correlation this is
As someone who voted remain, I'm sick, tired, and very ashamed, that these non parallels are continually drawn, as an arguement, by those having tantrums about not getting their own way
The people of this country asked for, nay demanded a referendum, those that could be arsed, got off theirs and went and voted, the fact that it didn't go the way it was expected to, always a chance when living in a democracy, is tough
Accept it, get over it, and, yourselves, and get on with your life
And
Stop equating it to something historically and factually horrific, where many lost their lives, as a direct result 20,000 plus Jews were sent to concentration camps in the days following, synagogues, homes, and, businesses torched and razed to the ground and directly led to the extermination of over 7 million concentration camp victims, 6 million plus of which where of Jewish birth or descent

See how ridiculous one looks when continually equating the two?

Edit for phone having a mind of its own


----------



## Pawscrossed

mrs phas said:


> If you had relations that went through this you'd know just what a fatuous and factually incorrect correlation this is
> As someone who voted remain, I'm sick, tired, and very ashamed, that these non parallels are continually drawn, as an arguement, by those having tantrums about not getting their own way
> The people of this country asked for, nay demanded a referendum, those that could be arsed, got off theirs and went and voted, the fact that it didn't go the way it was expected to, always a chance when living in a democracy, is tough
> Accept it, get over it, and, yourselves, and get on with your life
> And
> Stop equating it to something historically and factually horrific, where many lost their lives, as a direct result 20,000 plus Jews were sent to concentration camps in the days following, synagogues, homes, and, businesses torched and razed to the ground and directly led to the extermination of over 7 million concentration camp victims, 6 million plus of which where of Jewish birth or descent
> 
> See how ridiculous one looks when continually equating the two?
> 
> Edit for phone having a mind of its own


Ouch!!! I am not saying that there will be a reprisal of concentration camps, that wasn't the point I wished to make here. It would be offensive to anyone who experienced the Holocaust to imply this. I want to say that we must learn from history so mistakes aren't made again. The comparison for me is the single mindedness of Boris Johnson and his manipulation of power. I have also seen some actions by the Brexit Party and a few far rights that make me wonder if some parts of history are being mined for the wrong reasons. I would rather it was talked about than people silenced.

I'm very well aware of the facts about the Holocaust.


----------



## kimthecat

I think John major threaten to do this before he signed the Maastricht treaty because of rebel MPs .
They should have had a referendum at that time to see if the people wanted it.

It changed the Common market into the Eu , massive changes.


----------



## MollySmith

KittenKong said:


> Where were you Molly? I was at the Newcastle event yesterday and have seen some great images of the London, Leeds and Bristol events too.


Cambridge, it was really good. We listen to Percy Shelley 'rise up slumbering lions' which was very appropriate. Sadly for all you defenders of Boris on here, I report no arrests, no violence but very loud and united.



kimthecat said:


> Just seen a bit on the BBC news of the London demo , two small tots in a massive crowd forced to hold up a poster about Bojo for the cameras. They looked bewildered. Fancy using your children like that .


How fabulous to be part of history. It'll affect them I'm sure. Marvellous. We had lots of little ones of all ages here.


----------



## MollySmith

mrs phas said:


> If you had relations that went through this you'd know just what a fatuous and factually incorrect correlation this is
> As someone who voted remain, I'm sick, tired, and very ashamed, that these non parallels are continually drawn, as an arguement, by those having tantrums about not getting their own way
> The people of this country asked for, nay demanded a referendum, those that could be arsed, got off theirs and went and voted, the fact that it didn't go the way it was expected to, always a chance when living in a democracy, is tough
> Accept it, get over it, and, yourselves, and get on with your life
> And
> Stop equating it to something historically and factually horrific, where many lost their lives, as a direct result 20,000 plus Jews were sent to concentration camps in the days following, synagogues, homes, and, businesses torched and razed to the ground and directly led to the extermination of over 7 million concentration camp victims, 6 million plus of which where of Jewish birth or descent
> 
> See how ridiculous one looks when continually equating the two?
> 
> Edit for phone having a mind of its own





Pawscrossed said:


> Ouch!!! I am not saying that there will be a reprisal of concentration camps, that wasn't the point I wished to make here. It would be offensive to anyone who experienced the Holocaust to imply this. I want to say that we must learn from history so mistakes aren't made again. The comparison for me is the single mindedness of Boris Johnson and his manipulation of power. I have also seen some actions by the Brexit Party and a few far rights that make me wonder if some parts of history are being mined for the wrong reasons. I would rather it was talked about than people silenced.
> 
> I'm very well aware of the facts about the Holocaust.


I'm reminded of this "Each generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it." by George Orwell. Valid points made by you both.


----------



## MollySmith

KittenKong said:


> This was my favourite in Newcastle yesterday. Simple yet clearly directed at Johnson.
> View attachment 415226


This is my favourite. Love the Geordie spirit too!

They estimated about 1,500 here - we had a similar turn out on Thursday and there are marches planned all week at 5.30pm so I'll be going to them all too. It was great to hear from our MP and we had representation from the two universities and the councils.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> How fabulous to be part of history. It'll affect them I'm sure. Marvellous. We had lots of little ones of all ages here.


Its not the bringing down of the Berlin wall .
We're all part of history . In what way do you think it will affect the chilldren I mentioned . I dont know what your demo was like in Cambridge. They were young enough to either not remember it or to be traumarised by being packed into a huge crowd. My DD wasn't allowed to go on a demo with me ( animal ones )until she was in senior school .


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Sadly for all you defenders of Boris on here, I report no arrests, no violence but very loud and united.


What? You have a weird view of what you think others are like. I think this reflects your own mind rather than others.



MollySmith said:


> We had lots of little ones of all ages here.


I feel many many children are being manipulated, not only on this issue but many many others, rather than being allowed to grow to be free thinking human beings


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> Its nor the bringing down of the Berlin wall .
> We're all part of history . In what way do you think it will affect the chilldren I mentioned . I dont know what your demo was like in Cambridge. They were young enough to either not remember it or to be traumarised by being packed into a huge crowd. My DD wasn't allowed to go on a demo with me ( animal ones )until she was in senior school .


Isn't it a bloody shambles that people feel so impassioned by this shambles that they have to take their children out to protest with them?


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> Isn't it a bloody shambles that people feel so impassioned by this shambles that they have to take their children out to protest with them?


I agree its a shambles ! A real mess.


----------



## MollySmith

deleted


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> I feel many many children are being manipulated,


Yes indeed.


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> What? You have a weird view of what you think others are like. I think this reflects your own mind rather than others.
> 
> I feel many many children are being manipulated, not only on this issue but many many others, rather than being allowed to grow to be free thinking human beings


@rona I get that you don't agree with my politics but there's not need to call me weird for having different beliefs. It's not weird, it's called free thinking, you know... that thing you wish children could do?

In calling someone 'weird' because they disagree it creates a culture of shutting down. I'd rather then be 'weird' that... what do you say you are... normal?

Thing is... I've kept well away from these threads for weeks, months even because all that happens is a spit off between leave and remain. I see nothing has changed, the baiting goes on. I'm absolutely certain that there's a waiting game for the first sign of trouble on a march from those who are so up BJ's arse that they can't see the light, because that's what marches are all about. It was the same with Extinct Rebellion, it'll be the same with these demos and I can already predict who will be crowing about it. PF is strangely... weirdly... predictable like that.


----------



## kimthecat

@MollySmith we have had posts from KK crowing about the Brexit protesters . I dont go searching for stuff but if I did find something about anti brexit people then i would have to say, I would be very tempted to post it . That's humans for you .

Very OT now but Ive just come across an article about how the police pass on details to the DWP about demostrators who attend rallies about benefits cuts and both the police and DWP denied it.
Talk about a police state .
I bet they have files on many protesters on Climate change etc .


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I feel many many children are being manipulated, not only on this issue but many many others, rather than being allowed to grow to be free thinking human beings


Isn't always the same, how many children are brain washed into to religious believes before they are old enough to make a decision themselves.


----------



## MollySmith

kimthecat said:


> @MollySmith we have had posts from KK crowing about the Brexit protesters . I dont go searching for stuff but if I did find something about anti brexit people then i would have to say, I would be very tempted to post it . That's humans for you .
> 
> Very OT now but Ive just come across an article about how the police pass on details to the DWP about demostrators who attend rallies about benefits cuts and both the police and DWP denied it.
> Talk about a police state .
> I bet they have files on many protesters on Climate change etc .


No data is safe anywhere, it's one of many reasons why I prefer to march with my feet and stay out of trouble than post too much online these days, be that here or social media (few people realise that when a photo is posted onto Facebook, they transfer ownership of the copyright under FB's terms and conditions )

There's an awful lot of crowing, I feel it starts at Westminster, the place that's meant to 'lead' us


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> @rona I get that you don't agree with my politics but there's not need to call me weird for having different beliefs.


You've missed the point completely. But then That's what I would expect


----------



## MollySmith

rona said:


> You've missed the point completely. But then That's what I would expect


Odd what you expect that given we've never met.


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Odd what you expect that given we've never met.


No more than you thinking I would be disappointed about a march going of without trouble!

Which was my original point. Nothing to do with disagreeing on politics


----------



## Elles

I don’t really think toddlers should be taken on political marches. I don’t think it’s a suitable environment for the very young and what if rentamob did turn up and there was trouble? 

People go on a walk for cancer and no one even thinks of mentioning there was no trouble, because of course there wouldn't be, it goes without saying. Political demonstrations on all sides are notorious for trouble. Should toddlers go on the marches for democracy in Hong Kong? Or is it that despite voting to leave the Eu, most parents think a political march is pretty safe in this country?

Regardless though, I don’t agree with it.


----------



## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Political demonstrations on all sides are notorious for trouble. Should toddlers go on the marches for democracy in Hong Kong? Or is it that despite voting to leave the Eu, most parents think a political march is pretty safe in this country?
> 
> Regardless though, I don't agree with it.


Agree 100% with you
political marches/sit ins are no place for children who cannot understand and just see a sea of legs, if in buggies, or faces if held
id feel blooming scared and im an adult
the reason i quoted you tho was the last but about political marches being safe in this country
people forget
twas BJ that bought the water cannon and wanted to use them


----------



## SusieRainbow

Please can we leave personal criticisms and comments out of this ? As ever everyone is entitled to express an opinion on the given topic and disagreeing with another's opinion does not make anyone weird,misguided, naive or stupid !


----------



## rona

SusieRainbow said:


> Please can we leave personal criticisms and comments out of this ? As ever everyone is entitled to express an opinion on the given topic and disagreeing with another's opinion does not make anyone weird,misguided, naive or stupid !


You have misinterpreted too 

I'll leave alone but I feel I was the insulted party in this. It is weird to believe that someone wanted violence


----------



## Elles

SusieRainbow said:


> Please can we leave personal criticisms and comments out of this ? As ever everyone is entitled to express an opinion on the given topic and disagreeing with another's opinion does not make anyone weird,misguided, naive or stupid !


I think someone can think you have a weird view without thinking you are actually weird though.

I thought it was a shame that someone thinks that there are people on petforums who were disappointed there was no violence or arrests. Maybe there are, but I don't think supporting Boris is evidence. 

I've been mistaken for Reece-Mogg, not sure whether that's an insult, or a compliment. :Hilarious


----------



## Happy Paws2

Now, if tory MPs don't back him they'll sacked from standing as a tory MP in the next election. The man is becoming a Dictator.


----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> No data is safe anywhere, it's one of many reasons why I prefer to march with my feet and stay out of trouble than post too much online these days, be that here or social media (few people realise that when a photo is posted onto Facebook, they transfer ownership of the copyright under FB's terms and conditions )


 I didnt know that. I did join Facebook but don't do it know. I prefer Twitter .


----------



## Elles

And to think Theresa May agreed a deal with the Eu that the Eu were happy with, but remain MPs helped to vote it down 3 times.

MPs voted for the referendum
MPs voted for article 50, including no deal if one couldn’t be agreed
MPs voted against the only deal the Eu would agree to and which the Eu will not renegotiate
MPs forced Theresa May to resign

I wonder if they’ll be pleased with themselves if we do leave with no withdrawal deal on the 31st October?


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now, if tory MPs don't back him they'll sacked from standing as a tory MP in the next election. The man is becoming a Dictator.


Towards the end of Thatcher's reign many of her loyal subjects rebelled against her, no longer able to stomach her autocratic methods, the final strawl being Sir Geoffrey Howe's resignation that triggered Michael Hestletine to hold a leadership challenge.


----------



## Happy Paws2

KittenKong said:


> Towards the end of Thatcher's reign many of her loyal subjects rebelled against her, no longer able to stomach her autocratic methods, the final strawl being Sir Geoffrey Howe's resignation that triggered Michael Hestletine to hold a leadership challenge.


I remember that well, she left No 10 in tears, made my day.

Tomorrow is going to be very interesting.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> Towards the end of Thatcher's reign many of her loyal subjects rebelled against her, no longer able to stomach her autocratic methods, the final strawl being Sir Geoffrey Howe's resignation that triggered Michael Hestletine to hold a leadership challenge.





Happy Paws2 said:


> I remember that well, she left No 10 in tears, made my day.
> 
> .


You don't possibly think that she may have been showing the first signs of her dementia and that's why they felt she had to go?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> You don't possibly think that she may have been showing the first signs of her dementia and that's why they felt she had to go?


Personally I think she had signs of dementia from the day she took office the way she treated everyone, now we have another one.


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> I think someone can think you have a weird view without thinking you are actually weird though.


I think this was the point wasn't it - it was a _view_, not a person, that was deemed weird?


----------



## MilleD

Happy Paws2 said:


> Personally I think she had signs of dementia from the day she took office the way she treated everyone, now we have another one.


That's a bit mean


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Personally I think she had signs of dementia from the day she took office the way she treated everyone, now we have another one.


Not dementia, her mind was pin sharp when she started, everyone says so even today. She may have been suffering from some other personality dysfunction, but I for one was glad if she did.
Best PM in my lifetime


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Not dementia, her mind was pin sharp when she started, everyone says so even today. She may have been suffering from some other personality dysfunction, but I for one was glad if she did.
> Best PM in my lifetime


My ex had lunch with her and Ernie Marples in 1968 when she was (I think) Shadow Secretary of State. I remember him telling me what an impressive woman she was and that he thought she would go far in politics,which of course she did.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> You don't possibly think that she may have been showing the first signs of her dementia and that's why they felt she had to go?


No, I don't think so. She went too far with the Poll Tax for one thing. She had far too much power and needed cutting down to size.

I'm surprised you considered her to be the best PM, seeing how strongly pro Europe she was and her efforts with the single market and the likes, which the present lot are determined to end.

It was the only thing I agreed with Thatcher on.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> No, I don't think so. She went too far with the Poll Tax for one thing. She had far too much power and needed cutting down to size.
> 
> I'm surprised you considered her to be the best PM, seeing how strongly pro Europe she was and her efforts with the single market and the likes,which the present lot are determined to eradicate.
> 
> It was the only thing I agreed with Thatcher on.


I think you need to look at what she really wanted. Financial integration not bureaucratic integration.

Just a very small part of a speech made by Maggie

"My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.

To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.

Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality."

This is precisely my view too


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> No, I don't think so. She went too far with the Poll Tax for one thing. She had far too much power and needed cutting down to size.
> 
> I'm surprised you considered her to be the best PM, seeing how strongly pro Europe she was and her efforts with the single market and the likes, which the present lot are determined to eradicate.
> 
> It was the only thing I agreed with Thatcher on.


After she failed to get enough support in the first ballot I think most of her cabinet told her they thought she would lose in the next round hence she stepped down. Had she won outright or was convinced she would win the second ballot I don`t doubt she would have carried on.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> I think you need to look at what she really wanted. Financial integration not bureaucratic integration.
> 
> Just a very small part of a speech made by Maggie
> 
> "My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.
> 
> To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.
> 
> Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality."
> 
> This is precisely my view too


But she did believe in Europe and working together which is what mattered. I don't think she would have held an in-out referendum because she couldn't get her own way. For some to argue,(not yourself), she would have done is ridiculous as she's no longer around to tell us either way.

Thatcher commended respect within Europe, a far cry from the present bunch.

Being in the EEC didn't make the Falklands less patriotic, nor did the spectacle of the 2012 London Olympics make it less British through being in the EU.

She would be turning in her grave I'm sure.


----------



## mrs phas

Not being in the European Union doesn't mean we're not part of the european community
Its like the difference between using Catholic and catholic 
We are, and always will be, part of the european community as we are, globally, part of Europe


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Not dementia, her mind was pin sharp when she started, everyone says so even today. She may have been suffering from some other personality dysfunction, but I for one was glad if she did.
> *Best PM in my lifetim*e


I don't much time for any politicians but I think she was an evil witch.


----------



## Elles

Margaret Thatcher was an amazing woman, the first female British Prime Minister, a lady with strong principles, forthright, hard working and honest. Yes with hindsight she made mistakes, but she was spot on about the Eu, what she hoped it would be and what she later saw it becoming. She was ahead of her time on climate and pollution issues too. It’s unlikely there will be another with her dedication.

Yet supposedly caring lefties sang songs and celebrated when as an elderly lady, suffering dementia she died. Today we know that sleeping 4 hours a night is a factor, but as a workaholic that’s what she put into her job. I thought it was disgusting of people, disrespectful and cruel, but unfortunately typical of politics. Margaret Thatcher wanted equal opportunity for all and it to be up to us what we do with it. It’s a vision I support, I very much admired her then and still do now.


----------



## Jesthar

MollySmith said:


> (few people realise that when a photo is posted onto Facebook, they transfer ownership of the copyright under FB's terms and conditions )





kimthecat said:


> I didnt know that. I did join Facebook but don't do it know. I prefer Twitter .


That's because it's not actually true - not that it stops a meme to that effect doing the rounds every few months  You have to grant FB _some_ copyright elements or they wouldn't be able to show anyone but you the photo in the first place, but you still own the photos.

Handy-dandy plain English article on it here: https://www.howtogeek.com/304037/does-facebook-own-my-photos/


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Paws2 said:


> Now, if tory MPs don't back him they'll sacked from standing as a tory MP in the next election. The man is becoming a Dictator.


It would be amusing if the deselected candidates joined another party and were re-elected in the next GE meaning that party was either able to form a government on its own or in coalition with anyone other than Johnson! Loss of power and the Tories will have Johnson out of No. 10 in a blink of an eye. 
I say amusing but actually nothing is amusing about this mess.


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't much time for any politicians but I think she was an evil witch.


She was a comparative pussycat compared to those running the country now.

I'll always give credit where it's due, even to Thatcher as regards to her European stance. Cameron too for backing Gay marriage.

Ask me to give credit where it's due to Theresa May and the idiots now in charge, absolutely none at all.


----------



## Satori

Happy Paws2 said:


> Personally I think she had signs of dementia from the day she took office the way she treated everyone, now we have another one.





Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't much time for any politicians but I think she was an evil witch.


Someone who makes fun of dementia calls someone else evil. Seriously, you should take a very long hard look in the mirror.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Satori said:


> Someone who makes fun of dementia calls someone else evil. Seriously, you should take a very long hard look in the mirror.


I know all about, it I've lived with people who have suffered with it.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Jesthar said:


> That's because it's not actually true - not that it stops a meme to that effect doing the rounds every few months  You have to grant FB _some_ copyright elements or they wouldn't be able to show anyone but you the photo in the first place, but you still own the photos.
> 
> Handy-dandy plain English article on it here: https://www.howtogeek.com/304037/does-facebook-own-my-photos/


Facebook's Terms of Use (changed April 2019) titled "Permission to use content you create and share", Facebook doesn't take ownership for pictures you post on their platform. Facebook specifically states that "You own the content you create and share on Facebook and the other Facebook products you use, and nothing in these terms takes away the rights you have to your own content. You are free to share your content with anyone else, wherever you want."

Then it says... "To provide our services, though, we need you to give us some legal permissions to use that content. Specifically, when you share, post, or upload content that is covered by intellectual property rights (like photos or videos) on or in connection with our products, you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, and worldwide license to host, use, distribute, modify, run, copy, publicly perform or display, translate, and create derivative works of your content"

@MollySmith may have meant that and the words where different before April. It's right to be cautious becuse of no control. People think that they are only sharing photos with friends, but the reshare isn't private use. My partner is a photographer & his work appeared on a meme and it was never resolved. It's impossible under the law at the moment.

The EU are planning copyright reform in 2021 that affect Facebook which means large platforms should prevent copyrighted work from being accessible on their pages.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Just downloaded Jeremy Paxman’s programme from last night entitled “Why are our Politicians so cr*p”? 

Should be interesting


----------



## rona

Mmm, just heard something interesting. There is a possibility that parliament may make BJ ask to extend but then BJ could veto his own request .................!!


----------



## Magyarmum

rona said:


> Mmm, just heard something interesting. There is a possibility that parliament may make BJ ask to extend but then BJ could veto his own request .................!!


----------



## kimthecat

Justine Greening MP for Putney will not be standing for the Tories at the next general election.


----------



## Magyarmum

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/public...ters (main account)&utm_medium=email&utm_camp

*The impact of a no deal Brexit on health and care:an open letter to MPs*

Dear Members of Parliament,

With the increasing possibility of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union without a deal, we are writing to you to outline the implications of this for health and care services.

As the government launches its public campaign to prepare for a no deal Brexit and MPs return from recess with a short window to discuss the United Kingdom's exit from the European Union, we hope this letter helps to inform the important decisions that will be made in the coming days and weeks.

The focus of our three independent organisations is to research and understand key issues affecting health and social care. Our conclusion based on our own and other objective evidence is that a no deal Brexit could cause significant harm to these services and the people who rely on them. In this letter, we summarise *four major areas* where the impact could be felt most sharply. There is a very real risk that leaving the European Union without an agreement could exacerbate the workforce crisis in health and care, drive up demand for already hard-pressed services, hinder the supply of medicines and other vital supplies, and stretch the public finances which pay for healthcare.

*1. A risk of intensifying the staffing crisis*
The NHS has serious workforce shortages, with nearly 100,000 vacancies in English NHS trusts and a further 110,000 in social care. With 116,000 EU nationals working in health care and 104,000 in social care, even a small trend towards European migrants leaving the United Kingdom due to a fall in the pound or uncertainty around being granted settled status will worsen this situation. The lack of clarity about the deadline for settled status applications, and the very large proportion of EU nationals yet to apply, are a concern. A British Medical Association survey of doctors from the European Union has found nearly a third would consider leaving the country.

Our calculations show that the NHS needs an additional 5,000 internationally recruited nurses each year to stop the situation worsening: a migration system which impeded this would have serious implications even if current staff could all be persuaded to stay. The situation in social care could be even more serious. Ninety per cent of staff would not qualify for a permanent work visa under immigration reforms put forward by the last government, as they earn less than the proposed £30,000 salary threshold. The risk is magnified because many of the small and medium sized businesses which make up the majority of the sector are already in a perilous financial state.

*2. Shortages and price rises for vital supplies*
Despite plans for stockpiling and creating new supply routes, the large amount of new paperwork and regulatory hurdles that a no deal Brexit would create for imports is likely to increase shortages of medicines and medical devices. Although it is difficult to judge the magnitude of the problem, the leaked Operation Yellowhammer document emphasised the vulnerability of supply chains in the sector.

We can be certain that these additional burdens will mean companies face higher costs to get their products into the UK - costs that will ultimately be passed on to the NHS. Nuffield Trust analysis estimates these would total around £2.3 billion per year across the UK. This money will have to come out of other services and supplies that patients use, unless the overall budget increases. In the short term, higher costs would risk shortages of generic medicines even if supply chains remain unbroken, as the National Audit Office reported happened in relation to price pressures in 2017.

*3. The need to care for returning emigrants*
A no deal Brexit will mean UK emigrants to the European Union do not have guaranteed rights, and they may have to return to the United Kingdom to live and receive treatment if they become ill. Around 200,000 people using the special EU scheme that guarantees health care rights to retirees abroad would face losing that protection. It is unclear how many of the roughly 800,000 other UK nationals in Europe might also be unable to access or afford care. While we would have a duty to help these individuals, it would add considerably to the already high demand pressures on the NHS and social care.

*4. Funding shortfalls at a time when health and care need it most*
Although an extra £20.5 billion has been pledged to the day-to-day budget of the NHS in England, this does not cover other areas of spending such as investment in buildings, equipment and staff training budgets, which have been reduced in recent years. Creating real improvements for patients will also require repairs and upgrades to buildings and equipment, increased public health funding, and a stable social care system. In particular, analysis by the Health Foundation estimates that £1.0 billion extra in 2020/21 and £2.1 billion in 2021/22 are needed just to stabilise the adult social care system.

Yet the Office for Budget Responsibility's assessment is that the United Kingdom's public finances would be around £30 billion worse off each year in a no deal scenario of medium disruptiveness. This sum is more than the total spent on adult social care plus investment in NHS buildings and equipment across the whole of the United Kingdom in 2017/18.

Health and care services are already struggling to meet rising demand for services and maintain standards of care, not least in advance of an expected difficult winter. The potential consequences of a no deal Brexit could significantly impede services' ability to meet the needs of the individual patients and service users who rely on them.

We hope that you find this summary, and links to the relevant analyses, helpful.

We and our colleagues would of course be happy to discuss these issues with you at any time.

Yours faithfully,

*Richard Murray*, Chief Executive, The King's Fund
*Nigel Edwards*, Chief Executive, Nuffield Trust
*Jennifer Dixon*, Chief Executive, The Health Foundation


----------



## Elles

I thought the government were making some kind of exception for health care workers and that necessary drugs will be flown in, as many are already. Hasn’t Boris also just announced more spending.

Hopefully some of it will be spent on a review into training and a return to training more health care workers generally, instead of expecting other countries to train and supply us.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Goodness, just seen breaking news a Tory MP has defected to the Lib Dems, that means even the wafer slim majority has gone!


----------



## rona

Don't some of you think that they are fighting too hard for this?
What is it they are going to lose, cos sure as eggs they ain't worried about us!


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## Pawscrossed

According to Dr Nicholls who wrote the report on mitigation, not one of the royal colleges who facilitate healthcare have been consulted. Should we not actually know what these plans are by now? Shouldn't the royal colleges? It is health that Boris is gambling with.


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## Pawscrossed

3dogs2cats said:


> Goodness, just seen breaking news a Tory MP has defected to the Lib Dems, that means even the wafer slim majority has gone!


Philip Lee is damming. It's a bit mad isn't it? -1, does that mean we have a General Election? Confused!

Now this has happened.

"Nothing has been put on the table, not even a proper sketch or hint of a plan. We're waiting. But for the moment there is zilch."


----------



## Elles

Boris has put forward an all-Ireland zone to run the same as the one already in force as a single zone for animal health. Of course all of Ireland would have to agree with it.

*Brexit: Boris Johnson open to all-Ireland food zone as backstop solution*


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## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> According to Dr Nicholls who wrote the report on mitigation, not one of the royal colleges who facilitate healthcare have been consulted. Should we not actually know what these plans are by now? Shouldn't the royal colleges? It is health that Boris is gambling with.


Yeah saw that. He's elsewhere on the 'net talking to change U.K. and complaining about one of his patients not being able to access specific drugs last year because of Brexit, when even now we still haven't brexited and nothing has changed.

If he was part of a group who were asked by the government to write a report on mitigation, ie yellowhammer, how can he say no one was consulted?

He also calls himself a whistleblower and says he thinks they were going to ask him to sign a nda even though the government brought in a law to prevent it and he had to admit they didn't lol.

Sounds as mad as a box of frogs to me.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> Don't some of you think that they are fighting too hard for this?
> What is it they are going to lose, cos sure as eggs they ain't worried about us!


Part of me wants to leave to know what happens
Part of me wants to stay because I don't want to know what will happen
People don't create so much upset for no reason.


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## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> People don't create so much upset for no reason.


My point exactly


----------



## kimthecat

More fun and games . October 14th is a possible date for a General Election.
Im guessing the Brenda from Bristol "on Not another one " Gif will be popping up everywhere.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49573555
Tory rebels and opposition MPs have defeated the government in the first stage of their attempt to pass a law designed to prevent a no-deal Brexit.

The Commons voted 328 to 301 to take control of the agenda, meaning they can bring forward a bill seeking to delay the UK's exit date.

In response, Boris Johnson said he would bring forward a motion for an early general election.

Jeremy Corbyn said the bill should be passed before an election was held.

In total, 21 Tory MPs, including a number of ex-cabinet ministers, joined opposition parties to defeat the government.

After the vote, Downing Street said those Tory MPs who rebelled would have the whip removed, effectively expelling them from the parliamentary party.

No 10 had hoped the threat of expulsion - and an election - would bring would-be rebels into line.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> More fun and games . October 14th is a possible date for a General Election.
> Im guessing the Brenda from Bristol "on Not another one " Gif will be popping up everywhere.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49573555
> Tory rebels and opposition MPs have defeated the government in the first stage of their attempt to pass a law designed to prevent a no-deal Brexit.
> 
> The Commons voted 328 to 301 to take control of the agenda, meaning they can bring forward a bill seeking to delay the UK's exit date.
> 
> In response, Boris Johnson said he would bring forward a motion for an early general election.
> 
> Jeremy Corbyn said the bill should be passed before an election was held.
> 
> In total, 21 Tory MPs, including a number of ex-cabinet ministers, joined opposition parties to defeat the government.
> 
> After the vote, Downing Street said those Tory MPs who rebelled would have the whip removed, effectively expelling them from the parliamentary party.
> 
> No 10 had hoped the threat of expulsion - and an election - would bring would-be rebels into line.


Under the Fixed Terms Act only parliament can agree to hold a GE, as we saw with Theresa May. In the past, Corbyn would have fallen for it but even he has thrown caution into the wind fortunately.

Johnson comes over as your typical school bully. He has learned this behaviour is not tolerated in adulthood.

Hope to see more Tories crossing the bench. Would be funny if the combined opposition ended up with more MPs than the government. It would be self inflicted if he undertakes his threat to expel them from the party, thus no longer able to sit as Conservatives!

Glad to see this vile man weakened and people standing up to him the way they have done.


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## Pawscrossed

No words. A cabinet full of white class privilege. This one image sums up why I regret voting the way I did,


----------



## KittenKong

Pawscrossed said:


> No words. A cabinet full of white class privilege. This one image sums up why I regret voting the way I did,
> 
> View attachment 415515


Let's hope this becomes his, "Bacon sandwich" moment.


----------



## Pawscrossed

KittenKong said:


> Under the Fixed Terms Act only parliament can agree to hold a GE, as we saw with Theresa May. In the past, Corbyn would have fallen for it but even he has thrown caution into the wind fortunately.
> 
> Johnson comes over as your typical school bully. He has learned this behaviour is not tolerated in adulthood.
> 
> Hope to see more Tories crossing the bench. Would be funny if the combined opposition ended up with more MPs than the government. It would be self inflicted if he undertakes his threat to expel them from the party, thus no longer able to sit as Conservatives!
> 
> Glad to see this vile man weakened and people standing up to him the way they have done.


Yes. I am too. I did want to leave, I thought it was the right thing to do when we voted all those years ago. I did not vote for this elitist, bulling behaviour or for a no deal which is scary. Part of me wants no deal so that we can truly realise why it's so awful to vote when we rely on lies and misinformation. I can see how little I knew back then and how much this terrible man has let the people who believed him down. It is no surprise that Rees-Mog said that there must not be a second referendum because we all know too much.


----------



## Pawscrossed

KittenKong said:


> Let's hope this becomes his, "Bacon sandwich" moment.


He has had so many of those, they never seem to stick. How low does somebody had to sink before the world sees then for all they are? I cannot believe that anyone thinks kindly of him, Boris or their henchmen anymore.


----------



## MilleD

Pawscrossed said:


> Yes. I am too. I did want to leave, I thought it was the right thing to do when we voted all those years ago. I did not vote for this elitist, bulling behaviour or for a no deal which is scary. Part of me wants no deal so that we can truly realise why it's so awful to vote when we rely on lies and misinformation. I can see how little I knew back then and how much this terrible man has let the people who believed him down. It is no surprise that Rees-Mog said that there must not be a second referendum because we all know too much.


No-one that voted leave can say they didn't vote for a no deal as no-one had a clue what any deal would actually look like, or if there would be one.....


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## Gallifreyangirl

So what happens now?


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## MilleD

Gallifreyangirl said:


> So what happens now?


Get the feeling that no-one knows??


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## Elles

The government and various others explained that if we couldn’t agree a withdrawal deal, the law is that we would leave without one. Before, during and after the referendum. The very politicians screaming about it voted for it. They didn’t expect the result, got smug and complacent and now they don’t like it. 

We were supposed to arrange an orderly exit within 2 years, instead we get politicians going on tv saying they’ll do everything they can to prevent brexit even if we have a second referendum and vote leave again. So there is no point in having a second referendum. Or coming up with an exit deal, if they’ll vote it down because they want to stay in.

Leaving the Eu with no withdrawal deal is nothing to be afraid of imo. We will still trade with Europe, we have trade deals world wide already and will be able to negotiate more. The Eu want a trade deal with the U.K., if we can’t agree a withdrawal deal, because the Eu are using Ireland to prevent it ( there’s film of their laughing about it, I think it was on Panorama) we will arrange one after brexit. The uncertainty, the media and the fear mongering is sending people into a frenzy, which is a real shame. 

Boris has said that if we leave without a deal, he’ll spend the money set aside to pay the Eu, on the U.K. instead. Which is perfectly legitimate, as legally we owe nothing and have paid in far more than we got out.

It does still seem that we will not leave the Eu, unless Boris has something else up his sleeve though. 

Rees-Mogg did not say we shouldn’t have a referendum because people know too much, that’s the media manipulating what he did say and the following Chinese whispers. The actual video of the questions and answers he gave, but which have since been deliberately manipulated to fool the public, is on YouTube. It was during questions on LBC.


----------



## kimthecat

Gallifreyangirl said:


> So what happens now?


We'll be stuck in Limbo for years ! Im wondering if I will still be on this planet when they actually come to an agreement. !


----------



## Pawscrossed

Elles said:


> Yeah saw that. He's elsewhere on the 'net talking to change U.K. and complaining about one of his patients not being able to access specific drugs last year because of Brexit, when even now we still haven't brexited and nothing has changed.
> 
> If he was part of a group who were asked by the government to write a report on mitigation, ie yellowhammer, how can he say no one was consulted?
> 
> He also calls himself a whistleblower and says he thinks they were going to ask him to sign a nda even though the government brought in a law to prevent it and he had to admit they didn't lol.
> 
> Sounds as mad as a box of frogs to me.


The BMA disagree and support him.Judging by the past few days, the mad frogs are in Westminster.


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> The BMA disagree and support him.Judging by the past few days, the mad frogs are in Westminster.


Then maybe he shouldn't come across as a rabid remainer. There are global drug shortages and it's very worrying. Doctors should not be wittering on about brexit and implying that that everything will be fine if we could only stay in the Eu. It won't.

Europe has as many issues over health, health care, health workers and access to drugs and medicines as we do. Many countries are in worse situations. But it'll all be ok if we stay in the Eu, poach their health workers and buy drugs that don't exist because of a global shortage. It's as though there isn't just a magic money tree, there's a magic medicine chest too.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Then maybe he shouldn't come across as a rabid remainer. There are global drug shortages and it's very worrying. Doctors should not be wittering on about brexit and implying that that everything will be fine if we could only stay in the Eu. It won't.
> 
> Europe has as many issues over health, health care, health workers and access to drugs and medicines as we do. Many countries are in worse situations. But it'll all be ok if we stay in the Eu, poach their health workers and buy drugs that don't exist because of a global shortage. It's as though there isn't just a magic money tree, there's a magic medicine chest too.


I posted some months ago on another thread about how health care in Hungary was suffering from the loss of so many doctors, dentists and nurses going to work in other EU countries. To illustrate the gravity of the problem, it was reported a couple of months ago that one of the main Hungarian teaching hospitals was 26 doctors short! Needless to say I was told by a couple of PF remainers that I was selfish for wanting our doctors and nurses to remain in Hungary saving Hungarian lives, rather than moving to the UK and saving British ones instead.

A friend of mine is administrator for a large group of dental practices and he was telling me how, when he tried to recruit dental graduates, they'd all been snapped up by either the UK or Germany. In order to fill the vacant positions he had to recruit from neighbouring countries like Romania and Ukraine.

As for drug shortages, I suggest that anyone thinking they're all due to Brexit should read the following articles......................

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190826/sh...rance-is-putting-patients-at-risk-say-doctors

*Shortage of medicines in France is putting patients at risk, say doctors*

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-still-coming-up-short-on-drug-supplies/

*Europe comes up short on drug supplies*


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 415728


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 415728


What does this prove? I mean I know it goes with your somewhat warped view of political figures in the U.K. being dictators but all this picture shows is world leaders stood in front of police forces?

I think you need to come off twitter and Facebook tbh.


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## Pawscrossed

Elles said:


> Then maybe he shouldn't come across as a rabid remainer. There are global drug shortages and it's very worrying. Doctors should not be wittering on about brexit and implying that that everything will be fine if we could only stay in the Eu. It won't.
> 
> Europe has as many issues over health, health care, health workers and access to drugs and medicines as we do. Many countries are in worse situations. But it'll all be ok if we stay in the Eu, poach their health workers and buy drugs that don't exist because of a global shortage. It's as though there isn't just a magic money tree, there's a magic medicine chest too.





Magyarmum said:


> I posted some months ago on another thread about how health care in Hungary was suffering from the loss of so many doctors, dentists and nurses going to work in other EU countries. To illustrate the gravity of the problem, it was reported a couple of months ago that one of the main Hungarian teaching hospitals was 26 doctors short! Needless to say I was told by a couple of PF remainers that I was selfish for wanting our doctors and nurses to remain in Hungary saving Hungarian lives, rather than moving to the UK and saving British ones instead.
> 
> A friend of mine is administrator for a large group of dental practices and he was telling me how, when he tried to recruit dental graduates, they'd all been snapped up by either the UK or Germany. In order to fill the vacant positions he had to recruit from neighbouring countries like Romania and Ukraine.
> 
> As for drug shortages, I suggest that anyone thinking they're all due to Brexit should read the following articles......................
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20190826/sh...rance-is-putting-patients-at-risk-say-doctors
> 
> *Shortage of medicines in France is putting patients at risk, say doctors*
> 
> https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-still-coming-up-short-on-drug-supplies/
> 
> *Europe comes up short on drug supplies*


I appreciate all this. You have made similar points before. The point I'm making is that Rees Mogg is in a job of responsibility, flinging around arguments to suit his purpose isn't really good enough. Nicholls shouldn't have to defend himself from Mogg's tirade.


----------



## Elles

Pawscrossed said:


> I appreciate all this. You have made similar points before. The point I'm making is that Rees Mogg is in a job of responsibility, flinging around arguments to suit his purpose isn't really good enough. Nicholls shouldn't have to defend himself from Mogg's tirade.


He phoned into the Mogg show and asked him how many deaths from brexit were acceptable. What did he expect?


----------



## Pawscrossed

Elles said:


> He phoned into the Mogg show and asked him how many deaths from brexit were acceptable. What did he expect?


Good question. I expect no answer was given!


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## Elles

“the EU could set up public drug manufacturers to produce some medicines to supply all countries.

the Commission doesn’t have any plans to take further action to address drug shortages “

From the article. So how many deaths from Eu inaction are acceptable? 

There are global shortages and stockpiling for brexit will probably mean this country has more of the drugs than the Eu and brexit is saving lives lol.


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## kimthecat

The cost of drugs is disgusting. I know the companies spend a lot on research but I wonder how they justify it. New drug out for RA. £800 for 28 tablets is the cost price . They been accepted by Nice and they made a deal with the drug company and they get them cheaper but they're not allowed to disclose the cost.


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## Elles

Amber Rudd resigns. That’s the biggest blow to Boris to date and the end of his ambitions imho. I think that’s pretty apocalyptic to the current conservative government. Maybe they shouldn’t have put Boris in charge.


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## mrs phas

Elles said:


> Amber Rudd resigns.


Thank god for that


----------



## Elles

He won’t have a government soon and a lot of people like Amber Rudd, even though she’s a remainer. He does need someone to support him. Or do you mean thank god boris’ government is collapsing?


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> The cost of drugs is disgusting. I know the companies spend a lot on research but I wonder how they justify it. New drug out for RA. £800 for 28 tablets is the cost price . They been accepted by Nice and they made a deal with the drug company and they get them cheaper but they're not allowed to disclose the cost.


If you think that's expensive, you should see what they are allowed to charge in the USA!


----------



## KittenKong

stuaz said:


> What does this prove? I mean I know it goes with your somewhat warped view of political figures in the U.K. being dictators but all this picture shows is world leaders stood in front of police forces?
> 
> I think you need to come off twitter and Facebook tbh.


Bloody cheek! I didn't comment on those photos, the images spoke for themselves.

I won't lower myself to your level by personal insults, but many do appear blind to the normalisation of extremist politics, especially on the far right.

Even Amber Rudd, who I considered a right wing Tory could see that, which is saying something. Perhaps you think her views are warped too....


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## KittenKong

More Gerrymandering

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/06/boris-johnson-wanted-early-election-fewer-students-vote-10699840/


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## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Bloody cheek! I didn't comment on those photos, the images spoke for themselves.
> 
> I won't lower myself to your level by personal insults, but many do appear blind to the normalisation of extremist politics, especially on the far right.
> 
> Even Amber Rudd, who I considered a right wing Tory could see that, which is saying something. Perhaps you think her views are warped too....


The fact you posted them speaks for itself.

You didn't have to make any comment as your message was very clear from the pictures themselves.

To liken BJ and the UK to Kim Jong Un and North Korea is not only far fetched but highly insulting to the British people irrespective of their political leanings.


----------



## Guest

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 415728


Do you get some kind of kick insulting British people posting silly things like this (even though you are British yourself)?


----------



## Guest

I see that the Conservatives have had a boost in the polls. I wonder if they would win a General Election and this is what the opposition are scared of?


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> I see that the Conservatives have had a boost in the polls. I wonder if they would win a General Election and this is what the opposition are scared of?


Because Boris seems to respect the British people,and to a certain extent has listened to us too. Unlike the vast majority of MPs who are just self serving.

I thought he would be a disaster as PM but my respect for him has grown rather than diminished. What he is trying to do may be political suicide, but he still seems to respect the referendum result.

MPs seem to have forgotten that they are their to serve us, not fleece us so that they can go on their jollies and retire in comfort. I'm so glad I voted out as this is exactly the political shake up I'd hoped for. It doesn't look good on any politician, but they don't seem to have realised yet!


----------



## Happy Paws2

I understand that he wants to respect the referendum result, but his going to about like a bull in a chine shop, he is worse than May. No one really wants to leave without a deal, that's the main problem, he just wants to leave, and he tells lies, he said he wouldn't leave without a deal and he doesn't a election, he says he's having talks with the EU but instead he's touring the country on the election trail. If his senior MP's and his Brother don't trust him why should I. Respect needs to be earned, as far as I'm concerned the sooner he goes the better.


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> political marches/sit ins are no place for children who cannot understand


I guess it's cheaper than paying a child-minder and leaving them safe at home? Who knows how a protest might turn out if Rentamob decided to join in . . . I wouldn't risk it with a small child.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> And to think Theresa May agreed a deal with the Eu that the Eu were happy with, but remain MPs helped to vote it down 3 times.
> 
> MPs voted for the referendum
> MPs voted for article 50, including no deal if one couldn't be agreed
> MPs voted against the only deal the Eu would agree to and which the Eu will not renegotiate
> MPs forced Theresa May to resign
> 
> I wonder if they'll be pleased with themselves if we do leave with no withdrawal deal on the 31st October?


TM must be so happy she is out of this shitstorm now. I bet she looks ten years younger.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I understand that he wants to respect the referendum result, but his going to about like a bull in a chine shop, he is worse than May. No one really wants to leave without a deal,


Well Mays pussy footing didn't work and we are in such a mess that getting out without a deal seem preferable to me. It's not as if we can't sort out trade after we leave. The longer we go on like this the worse it will be for all of us. 
Get out, sort out then get rid.....................


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> I understand that he wants to respect the referendum result, but his going to about like a bull in a chine shop, he is worse than May. No one really wants to leave without a deal, that's the main problem, he just wants to leave, and he tells lies, he said he wouldn't leave without a deal and he doesn't a election, he says he's having talks with the EU but instead he's touring the country on the election trail. If his senior MP's and his Brother don't trust him why should I. Respect needs to be earned, as far as I'm concerned the sooner he goes the better.


As long as the bas***ds go with him.

Cummings is clearly the brains with Johnson being his glove puppet. The latter's performance in Parliament even made Theresa May look good at the dispatch box. Corbyn often struggled with May at PM'S Question Time. He literally destroyed Johnson last Wednesday. It was great to see.

Only the extreme Farage devoting Brexit supporters show any admiration for him as they want it delivered regardless of Irish and, possibly Scottish border later. It'll save them 20p on a pint at Wetherspoons which is all that matters at the end of the day. Simple things for simple people.

But, rather like the way Michael Howard tried to blame Labour for higher Poll Tax rates in some areas it's backfiring on him big style.

And, with the opposition uniting against a GE on or around 15/10/19, it's looking more positive.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> To liken BJ and the UK to Kim Jong Un


Wasn't he the one who blew up his own uncle as punishment for Godknowswhat? I think another was fed to the dogs. Apart from the fact they both have dodgy hair, I don't see the likeness.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Because Boris seems to respect the British people,and to a certain extent has listened to us too. Unlike the vast majority of MPs who are just self serving.
> 
> I thought he would be a disaster as PM but my respect for him has grown rather than diminished. What he is trying to do may be political suicide, but he still seems to respect the referendum result.
> 
> MPs seem to have forgotten that they are their to serve us, not fleece us so that they can go on their jollies and retire in comfort. I'm so glad I voted out as this is exactly the political shake up I'd hoped for. It doesn't look good on any politician, but they don't seem to have realised yet!


You're joking, right? Johnson only has respect for his own. Etonians are not working class heroes, however the media sell them.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> You're joking, right? Johnson only has respect for his own. Etonians are not working class heroes, however the media sell them.


I didn't say anything about working class, the people aren't all working class you know?
Also, about Boris I said this


rona said:


> Get out, sort out then *get rid*.....................


Highlighted in red so that you can see it 

I'd even support Corbyn if he was promising to get us out and I can't stand anything else he stands for


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> It's not as if we can't sort out trade after we leave. The longer we go on like this the worse it will be for all of us.
> Get out, sort out then get rid.....................


But deals take time sometimes years, we aren't going to leave and be signing deals the next day. We could be struggling for years, we really need a deal.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> But deals take time sometimes years, we aren't going to leave and be signing deals the next day. We could be struggling for years, we really need a deal.


And how long does this debacle go on?


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> And how long does this debacle go on?


Well the majority of the country voted to leave they have to leave with what ever happens. Not my fault, I just have to live with consequences of others peoples decisions.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well the majority of the country voted to leave they have to leave with what ever happens. Not my fault, I just have to live with consequences of others peoples decisions.


I feel I am living with the consequences of remain MPs trying to go against the referendum result


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I feel I am living with the consequences of remain MPs trying to go against the referendum result


Most of them just a deal.


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well the majority of the country voted to leave they have to leave with what ever happens. Not my fault, I just have to live with consequences of others peoples decisions.


Not quite right
The majority of those, who bothered to go and vote, voted out
The majority of the country sat, complacently, on their fat backsides, smugly thinking it was a done deal, and that they didn't need to go and vote
How wrong they were


----------



## Calvine

mrs phas said:


> Not quite right
> The majority of those, who bothered to go and vote, voted out
> The majority of the country sat, complacently, on their fat backsides, smugly thinking it was a done deal, and that they didn't need to go and vote
> How wrong they were


True; almost 30% could not be arsed to vote and many deliberately ruined their ballot paper for a giggle.


----------



## stuaz

KittenKong said:


> Bloody cheek! I didn't comment on those photos, the images spoke for themselves.
> 
> I won't lower myself to your level by personal insults, but many do appear blind to the normalisation of extremist politics, especially on the far right.
> 
> Even Amber Rudd, who I considered a right wing Tory could see that, which is saying something. Perhaps you think her views are warped too....


your right you didn't comment on the photos which is why I asked the point of them. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find a picture of Obama in front of police forces or pretty much any world leader. But I guess that wouldn't suit your agenda 

As for the "personal insults"...


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> But deals take time sometimes years, we aren't going to leave and be signing deals the next day. We could be struggling for years, we really need a deal.


They've had 3 years. Don't you think the Eu has a trade deal ready and written up for the day after we leave with no deal? There's already some issues covered. Other countries such as Australia are ready and waiting to sign the next day.


----------



## Elles

We all have to live with others’ decisions. I’ve voted Green Party and got nowhere.


----------



## Magyarmum

stuaz said:


> your right you didn't comment on the photos which is why I asked the point of them. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find a picture of Obama in front of police forces or pretty much any world leader. But I guess that wouldn't suit your agenda
> 
> As for the "personal insults"...


Here you go .......










And OMG What's this ........... Macron leading his army to war?


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> If you think that's expensive, you should see what they are allowed to charge in the USA!


I dont know . How much are they allowed to charge?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> The longer we go on like this the worse it will be for all of us.
> Get out, sort out then get rid.....................


But it's the short term that's worrying people, no preparations for food, medical and supply shortages with rationing not seen since the end of the war. Not many will endure that, to repeat this is what, "We" had to do during and after the war", won't wash with most people. They're expecting cheaper beer at Wetherspoons for one thing, but when the fast food take- aways run out of supplies for the evening.......

The need to get a deal with a, "Smooth and orderly exit" is logical in comparison to that, as it lessens, but doesn't eliminate the problems with more time to negotiate a trade deal all set for the full exit day after 18 months to two years.

Then, people are trusting this government, now with Johnson as PM, to handle everything. Basically, our lives and futures are in the hands of these incompetent idiots which doesn't inspire me with confidence one bit. They'll avoid the tax avoidance regulations which is what inspired them to hold the vote in the first place. The media ensured support by using tried and tested methods used to rescue Thatcher after the Falklands.

You might blame "Remainers" for not respecting the narrow leave victory (17+m out of a population of 46+m), but May and Corbyn's quest to get a deal first makes absolute sense when compared to the alternative no deal crash out that was unheard of in 2016.

I don't want any Brexit of course, but looking at alternative viewpoints.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I dont know . How much are they allowed to charge?


Whatever they want. There's no cap or government restrictions. I think the recent average (if memory serves) is about three times the average cost across the EU and UK - and that's the average. More commonly prescribed drugs, or those essential for someone to stay alive, can have a far bigger percentage hike. It's one of the reasons the top cause of bankrupcy in the US is medical bills.

EDIT: found a comparison table from August 2019


----------



## KittenKong

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well the majority of the country voted to leave they have to leave with what ever happens. Not my fault, I just have to live with consequences of others peoples decisions.














rona said:


> I feel I am living with the consequences of remain MPs trying to go against the referendum result


Most MPs, whether they backed remain or leave, accept the referendum result, but want to leave with a good deal. This is what was promised in 2016.
Amber Rudd in her resignation interview said that, I believe she voted for May's deal on all three occasions. MPs were right to reject it as it was dire. Nothing to do with wanting to stop Brexit. Corbyn was always convinced he could get a better deal for example.



stuaz said:


> your right you didn't comment on the photos which is why I asked the point of them. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find a picture of Obama in front of police forces or pretty much any world leader. But I guess that wouldn't suit your agenda
> 
> As for the "personal insults"...


What else would you call, "Warped mind"? I took that to be a personal insult.


----------



## mrs phas

All this scaremongering around food and drugs, is just that scaremongering

Just like there was with y2k and the satellites would crash out of the sky and the world would go dark

Just like there was during the cold war, when, apparently, dropping under your desk with your head between your knees would save you, if an atom bomb was dropped (at least you could kiss your ass goodbye at least)

The world is a very different place than it was in the 50s, then you had to book a call to america or Australia, through the telephone operator, if you needed to get news somewhere quickly you used a telegram
Nowadays, a press of a button and your food is delivered within half an hour, your shopping the next day, tablets and medications you can choose to pick up on x y or z day or have them delivered
What do you expect to happen? 
Countries will still deal with us
Everything will carry on as normal
Its not like we'll wake up one day and find we are cut adrift, stateless, pariahs, or sent to Coventry over leaving the EU (not Europe)
We won't even know the difference
So stop kissing your ass goodbye and start looking at the day you've been given, who knows, by Oct 31st (or Jan 21st if another extension given) you might not be here to enjoy life anyway, why waste it now?


----------



## Jesthar

mrs phas said:


> Just like there was with y2k and the satellites would crash out of the sky and the world would go dark


*sigh* This frustration isn't aimed at you, Mrs Phas, but as an IT professional we get SO frustrated with Brexit being compared to Y2K!

Y2K was a non-event not because nothing major happened, but because hundreds of thousands of techies spent _billions _of hours (and currency) preparing for it in order to ensure as little as possible broke. And not simply a couple of years in advance - for over two decades in advance. By the 1980s most systems were already being coded to be Y2K compliant as the 'bug' had already been highlighted as a problem, so the approach for 80s and newer systems was often mainly one of testing and checking, or identifying where it might cause problems with cross-connections or legacy hardware.

1960s and 70s systems either had to be fixed or replaced, and a lot of programmers with legacy coding skills made big bucks making sure that, for example, the banking network (which was a very early adopter of computing) didn't go belly up - and again, work started many years in advance. Some of those systems could only be partly patched, and we are going to have another, bigger round of problems requiring a lot more intervention when 2050 rolls around unless they are replaced by then. But again, we already know about it and can prepare for it, even though it's 30 years away.

But that's not the biggest problem with the comparison. With Y2K, we had two BIG advantages:

a) we knew (and know) exactly what the problem was that needed to be fixed, and how to find the problem areas
b) we had a huge, well funded army of highly trained professionals working away on the solution

In other words, Y2K was a known entity with a known solution and timeframe. Brexit, three years down the line, is still an unknown problem with an unknown solution that no-one knows how to prepare for, and those supposed to be solving the problem are as baffled as anyone else by all accounts.

So yeah, I'll take a dozen reruns of Y2K any day...


----------



## KittenKong

mrs phas said:


> All this scaremongering around food and drugs, is just that scaremongering
> 
> Just like there was with y2k and the satellites would crash out of the sky and the world would go dark
> 
> Just like there was during the cold war, when, apparently, dropping under your desk with your head between your knees would save you, if an atom bomb was dropped (at least you could kiss your ass goodbye at least)
> 
> The world is a very different place than it was in the 50s, then you had to book a call to america or Australia, through the telephone operator, if you needed to get news somewhere quickly you used a telegram
> Nowadays, a press of a button and your food is delivered within half an hour, your shopping the next day, tablets and medications you can choose to pick up on x y or z day or have them delivered
> What do you expect to happen?
> Countries will still deal with us
> Everything will carry on as normal
> Its not like we'll wake up one day and find we are cut adrift, stateless, pariahs, or sent to Coventry over leaving the EU (not Europe)
> We won't even know the difference
> So stop kissing your ass goodbye and start looking at the day you've been given, who knows, by Oct 31st (or Jan 21st if another extension given) you might not be here to enjoy life anyway, why waste it now?


Why tolerate a lower standard of living that'll arise from Brexit coupled with a hard right government who want to force people to work 'til they drop and deprive pensioners of their free TV Licences and, no doubt soon, free bus passes?

Why do people of this country look up to the monarchy, idolise them and the wealthy like JR-M, Farage and Johnson?

Why do they still see these people as superior to themselves? They were conceived and came into the world the same way after all.

I've been accused of putting "my" country down for not getting behind Brexit. Why do people continue to put themselves down is my argument.

In my eyes, the rich and powerful are no better nor worse than myself. I have no respect for my so called betters unless they showed respect towards me.

Getting back to the point. The millennium was orchestrated by experts under a very competent government.

This lot have had enough of experts with the belief their privileged upbringings will see everything through.

Rather akin to asking the man next door to install or service a gas central heating system through being, "good with his hands", but otherwise not qualified to do so.

The very thought of trusting this bunch of tried and tested liars with their incompetence doesn't inspire me with confidence at all.

I would argue that even if I did support Brexit.


----------



## kimthecat

The police are as big as liars as Boris. Apparently saying the word pissing is swearing and an arrestable offence and according to a police woman' I said it to a neighbour . It should all be on camera , Id love to see it . I said , you've cause nothing but trouble since you came here. If I was going to swear , I'd have said worse than that!

ETA There was a fight over parking in the street , been brewing for a while . I wasnt involved but they not only arrested the people who caused it but also one of my neighbours who was attacked! 
i was very upset and went out into my front garden and I said it as the woman was walking back to her house .


----------



## mrs phas

fudge it
i wrote a long post then lost the bugger
to sum up
no ones better than me, and no one is more equal than anyone else, as far as im concerned anyway
Much as i admre the queen for many things, id treat a tramp in the street with the same curtesy, as I would her,
as you say,@KittenKong
both came into the word the same way and both will leave it the same way too
and
i dont believe ive ever said, or intimated, that i believed that was the case, certainly not due to wealth, education, job or position in life

@Jesthar for all you did, thank you
didnt stop millions running around like Chicken Licken, but my thanks to you, et al, for making sure it didnt


----------



## cheekyscrip

But Leave campaign never promised to crash out without a deal and ruin the economy?

On the contrary they promised a good deal and it was to be the easiest deal ever!!!!

Do you think 51.8% voted to crash out without a deal and throw ourselves at mercy of the Clockwise Orange?



Many of Leave voters in 2016 were positive ( some on this very forum) that we can have access to Single Market like Norway or like Swiss, or become EEA country etc...

Please, tell people where they stand after No Deal, how many jobless, how many below breadline so ERG can pay lower taxes and axe benefits, social supports , NHS etc... as obviously lower taxes means no money for such luxury.

If people are total morons and want to trust JRM, Nigel or BoJo...

If people agree with the purge and sacking people like Clarke?
Then they don’t deserve better than BoJo, ERG and Nigel.


----------



## Elles

They promised to leave without a deal if they couldn’t agree one. 

We will still agree a trade deal with Europe when we’ve left, whether there’s a withdrawal deal or not.

The Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn are currently promising a Norway type deal.


----------



## Jesthar

mrs phas said:


> @Jesthar for all you did, thank you
> didnt stop millions running around like Chicken Licken, but my thanks to you, et al, for making sure it didnt


Can't take any credit myself, to be honest - I was too young and green to be directly involved with such important work!

I can say with certainty, though, that the only ones running around like headless chickens were

a) those who left everything to the last minute, or
b) anyone listening to the sensationalist headlines (purely designed to sell newspapers and dodgy Y2K 'consultancy' services) instead of the army of realexperts working on the problem.

In fact, there's a certain element of irony involved here. The Y2K furore consisted mainly of talking heads shouting "we're all gonna dieeee!" whilst the experts steadily kept repeating 'No, we're pretty sure we've fixed all the major stuff' only to be ignored in favour of yet more hand wringing headlines. Brexit, on the other hand, seems to be the reverse, with experts steadily repeating 'er, guys - what about this potenial major problem?' whilst the talking heads shout "It'll all be fine if you just have faith!" and trot off to write yet more red, white and blue headlines...


----------



## Guest

The withdrawal agreement is only that, an agreement to leave the European Union. If the UK does not agree to it, they leave with no deal on the withdrawal agreement only. Once the United Kingdom has left the United Kingdom and European Union have to negotiate a trade deal. I don't know why some people think that not agreeing to the withdrawal agreement is the end and that is it because it isn't. The United Kingdom will be trading with the European Union still on WTO or a continuity agreement if the European Union allow it, by the way the European Union has some WTO trade agreements to you know. The United Kingdom has signed some continuity agreements with some countries so trade carries on, on the same terms the United Kingdom has at the moment, who says the European Union won't agree to one as well to have trade continue as it is for now.

There seems to be alot of scaremongering going on but it is just that and nothing else.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Yes.... but we have to get a deal with them, that will take time, we aren't going to get one straight away.


----------



## stuaz

.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes.... but we have to get a deal with them, that will take time, we aren't going to get one straight away.


Doubt very much it will be better than we have already.

That is the whole point of Remain.

The deals we will have to get are worse than what we have got now.

It is a trading bloc not Soviet Union.

We are not under occupation and we don't have Russian or other army on our land.

All that "freedom" talk is lots of bull.

On contrary getting closer to USA will cost us the independence ..
War with Iraq taught you nothing ?

Did EU joined that war?

How many wars we got involved in because of EU?

Brexit especially with No Deal leaves us at mercy of dear Trump, BoJo's and Nigel's best mate.

And much poorer.

So ERG can pay lower taxes.

Those [email protected] stop at nothing to make themselves richer.

They the Upper Class, you are nothing for them.

Yet English still happy to trust JMG and his loudspeaker BoJo????

Scots clearly not so much.
Welsh having second thoughts?


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> The withdrawal agreement is only that, an agreement to leave the European Union. If the UK does not agree to it, they leave with no deal on the withdrawal agreement only. Once the United Kingdom has left the United Kingdom and European Union have to negotiate a trade deal. I don't know why some people think that not agreeing to the withdrawal agreement is the end and that is it because it isn't. The United Kingdom will be trading with the European Union still on WTO or a continuity agreement if the European Union allow it, by the way the European Union has some WTO trade agreements to you know. The United Kingdom has signed some continuity agreements with some countries so trade carries on, on the same terms the United Kingdom has at the moment, who says the European Union won't agree to one as well to have trade continue as it is for now.
> 
> There seems to be alot of scaremongering going on but it is just that and nothing else.


WTO ? Really?

Reminds me so much of a poster who wrote identical posts about how WTO.

Tariffs , red tape, queues, rising costs ... this is the whole idea of EU - Single Market to avoid those!

Why do you think Norway or Switzerland have access to Single Market?

Why they are ready to pay for it?

When we are out lots of businesses will be lost.

It will have domino effect and recession is on the cards.

It like last dance on Titanic.

Bercow, Clarke , Heseltine put the country before their career or their financial gain.

ERG is just a bunch of greedy [email protected]

They are scary not EU!!!


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> Can't take any credit myself, to be honest - I was too young and green to be directly involved with such important work!
> 
> I can say with certainty, though, that the only ones running around like headless chickens were
> 
> a) those who left everything to the last minute, or
> b) anyone listening to the sensationalist headlines (purely designed to sell newspapers and dodgy Y2K 'consultancy' services) instead of the army of realexperts working on the problem.
> 
> In fact, there's a certain element of irony involved here. The Y2K furore consisted mainly of talking heads shouting "we're all gonna dieeee!" whilst the experts steadily kept repeating 'No, we're pretty sure we've fixed all the major stuff' only to be ignored in favour of yet more hand wringing headlines. Brexit, on the other hand, seems to be the reverse, with experts steadily repeating 'er, guys - what about this potenial major problem?' whilst the talking heads shout "It'll all be fine if you just have faith!" and trot off to write yet more red, white and blue headlines...


Hubby worked in computers at the time, he earned a bit from it. He said the problems were exaggerated.

The headlines over brexit are mostly we're all going to die from what I've seen though. Food, water and medicine shortages, the motorways becoming car parks, the collapse of the NHS and rioting on the streets, being the least of our problems once we leave the Eu, which supplies us all and keeps us all in line and out of war. Once we leave, there nothing to stop us joining with the USA, poisoning our citizens like America do and going to war against Europe. It's only the Eu that keeps the U.K. on the straight and narrow.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> It is a trading bloc not Soviet Union.


It became more than a trading block when the Maastricht treaty was signed.



> Did EU joined that war?
> 
> How many wars we got involved in because of EU?


I take it you didnt see my reply to KK when he said the same thing. Ive copied and pasted.

The US is a country , The EU isnt.
Blair misled the US with his sexed up document and invaded Iraq , 
The Invasion of Libya was Nato led .

Individual EU countries have been involved with wars including Desert Storm
A host of nations participated in Desert Storm, to name a few: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Australia, New Zealand, France, Britain, Spain, Greece, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, Canada, and the US.

The UK helped out France recently . They could have dragged us into a war .

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/28/british-troops-mali-mission

Cameron didnt have a good relationship with the EU after he vetoed treaty changes .back in 2011 I think it was .


----------



## Guest

@cheekyscrip You are misunderstanding what the European Union is. Of course the European Union does not get involved with the Iraq war or any other wars but countries within the European Union did get involved with Iraq and Afghanistan including United Kingdom, France, Netherlands, Germany. The mentioned countries and more all sent soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan and they are in the European Union. The European Union is not a country and does not have an army, navy or air force and does not get involved in any wars even though countries within it did and still do.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> WTO ? Really?
> 
> Reminds me so much of a poster who wrote identical posts about how WTO.
> 
> Tariffs , red tape, queues, rising costs ... this is the whole idea of EU - Single Market to avoid those!
> 
> Why do you think Norway or Switzerland have access to Single Market?
> 
> Why they are ready to pay for it?
> 
> When we are out lots of businesses will be lost.
> 
> It will have domino effect and recession is on the cards.
> 
> It like last dance on Titanic.
> 
> Bercow, Clarke , Heseltine put the country before their career or their financial gain.
> 
> ERG is just a bunch of greedy [email protected]
> 
> They are scary not EU!!!


Please read my post properly. Thank you.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> It became more than a trading block when the Maastricht treaty was signed.
> 
> I take it you didnt see my reply to KK when he said the same thing. Ive copied and pasted.
> 
> The US is a country , The EU isnt.
> Blair misled the US with his sexed up document and invaded Iraq ,
> The Invasion of Libya was Nato led .
> 
> Individual EU countries have been involved with wars including Desert Storm
> A host of nations participated in Desert Storm, to name a few: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Australia, New Zealand, France, Britain, Spain, Greece, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, Canada, and the US.
> 
> The UK helped out France recently . They could have dragged us into a war .
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/28/british-troops-mali-mission
> 
> Cameron didnt have a good relationship with the EU after he vetoed treaty changes .back in 2011 I think it was .


Perhaps you'd like to read these two article, one from 2012 which gives some idea why the UK voted to leave the EU

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...0633/The-EU-so-where-did-it-all-go-wrong.html

*The EU: so where did it all go wrong?*

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/05/how-valid-claim-eu-has-delivered-peace-europe


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> It became more than a trading block when the Maastricht treaty was signed.
> 
> I take it you didnt see my reply to KK when he said the same thing. Ive copied and pasted.
> 
> The US is a country , The EU isnt.
> Blair misled the US with his sexed up document and invaded Iraq ,
> The Invasion of Libya was Nato led .
> 
> Individual EU countries have been involved with wars including Desert Storm
> A host of nations participated in Desert Storm, to name a few: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Australia, New Zealand, France, Britain, Spain, Greece, Germany, Poland, Netherlands, Canada, and the US.
> 
> The UK helped out France recently . They could have dragged us into a war .
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/28/british-troops-mali-mission
> 
> Cameron didnt have a good relationship with the EU after he vetoed treaty changes .back in 2011 I think it was .


Perhaps you'd like to read these two article, one from 2012 which gives some idea why the UK voted to leave the EU

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...0633/The-EU-so-where-did-it-all-go-wrong.html

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/05/how-valid-claim-eu-has-delivered-peace-europe

*How valid is the claim that the EU has delivered peace in Europe?*


----------



## kimthecat

Talking about referendums , The French and a couple of other Eu members had referendums to decide whether to sign the Maastricht or not and the result were very close , just slightly over 50 pc to sign. maybe if we had had a referendum then , we might not be in the mess we are now.


----------



## kimthecat

Bercow will be resigning . Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out. 

ohn Bercow has announced he will stand down as speaker of the House of Commons on the Brexit deadline of October 31 if MPs do not vote for a general election.
Mr Bercow, who has been in position for a decade, made the surprise announcement just hours before the government suspends parliament until 14 October.
He said that if MPs do vote in favour of a general election, he would stand down at the suspension of parliament.
It comes amid speculation the Conservative Party were planing to stand a candidate against the former Tory MP at the next general election after granting MPs a vote on taking control of the Commons order paper from the government.

https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAH2bHe?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> Bercow will be resigning . Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out.
> 
> ohn Bercow has announced he will stand down as speaker of the House of Commons on the Brexit deadline of October 31 if MPs do not vote for a general election.
> Mr Bercow, who has been in position for a decade, made the surprise announcement just hours before the government suspends parliament until 14 October.
> He said that if MPs do vote in favour of a general election, he would stand down at the suspension of parliament.
> It comes amid speculation the Conservative Party were planing to stand a candidate against the former Tory MP at the next general election after granting MPs a vote on taking control of the Commons order paper from the government.
> 
> https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAH2bHe?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare


Bercow knows there will not be an election before the 31st October so Johnson will still have a minority government making it hard for him to put a pet poodle of his choice in the chair.


----------



## Magyarmum

3dogs2cats said:


> Bercow knows there will not be an election before the 31st October so Johnson will still have a minority government making it hard for him to put a pet poodle of his choice in the chair.


Someone was quick getting this on internet ....................

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Speaker_of_the_British_House_of_Commons_election

*2019 Speaker of the British House of Commons election*


----------



## kimthecat

The idea is to have an unbiased speaker.

I thought Betty Boothroyd was fabulous . The way she used to say Order Order


----------



## cheekyscrip

kimthecat said:


> The idea is to have an unbiased speaker.
> 
> I thought Betty Boothroyd was fabulous . The way she used to say Order Order


Bercow is fabulous. Defending the backbenchers, the courage and the wit.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> Bercow is fabulous. Defending the backbenchers, the courage and the wit.


He's an arrogant bully .

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...laims-emerge-against-house-of-commons-speaker


----------



## Jesthar

Oooh, BoJo has been ordered by the Commons to hand over the secret papers detailing preparations for a no-deal Brexit by 11pm this Wednesday...

He's currently pussyfotting around giving an answer and instead threatening to go ahead with No Deal with or without Commons support. Mature, BoJo, very mature...


----------



## kimthecat

@Jesthar Whats he got to hide, I wonder.


----------



## kimthecat

The HoC debating an early election. BJ looks absolutely knackered . I wonder if he's regretting becoming PM. Be careful of what you want , you might get it. !


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> @Jesthar Whats he got to hide, I wonder.


Plenty - he's a slippery little weasel, that one...



kimthecat said:


> The HoC debating an early election. BJ looks absolutely knackered . I wonder if he's regretting becoming PM. Be careful of what you want , you might get it. !


Regretting becoming PM this early, yes. I strongly suspect his masterplan was to become PM just _after_ Brexit so he could blame everything on his predecessor(s) and bang on endlessly about how everything would have been so much better if he had been PM during Brexit


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> The HoC debating an early election. BJ looks absolutely knackered . I wonder if he's regretting becoming PM. Be careful of what you want , you might get it. !


Seems such a waste of time debating before another vote on an early election, the opposition parties have made it clear they do not trust Johnson so will not vote in favour of an election, debating is surely pointless just get to the darn vote! Twenty minutes to go before the vote! Oh just get on with it -bloody windbags I want to get on to the closing ceremony bit, although apparently opposition parties are not attending, Poor Black Rod, all that dressing up and banging on door will go unappreciated!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> Plenty - he's a slippery little weasel, that one...
> 
> Regretting becoming PM this early, yes. I strongly suspect his masterplan was to become PM just _after_ Brexit so he could blame everything on his predecessor(s) and bang on endlessly about how everything would have been so much better if he had been PM during Brexit


That is what he hoped for I think when he voted for WA vote 3, he hoped it would go through, he would get the throne he has so coveted and nothing would be his fault. 
FFS Billy The Fiddle shut up!


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> Bercow is fabulous


 I think he's an irritating little twerp.


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> bloody windbags


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious!


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> BJ looks absolutely knackered


 He does; and I bet TM is laughing herself to sleep each night.


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> He does; and I bet TM is laughing herself to sleep each night.


Makes you almost wish we had her back!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Calvine said:


> I think he's an irritating little twerp.


I beg to differ.

He stood for parliament and for democracy.

He gave all the opportunity for opposition to come together with something constructive.
If they failed to get through PV or Amendment on Single Market not his fault.

He is was all about giving a fair chance to all.

I understand why he is leaving now.

I am so very sad to see that Corbyn failed totally as the leader of the opposition and I blame him for getting offended when he should not act on injured ego...for most of all whipping Labour to vote for Article 50!!!!
Regardless of their or their constituency opinions.

This a shame to allow Britain to be hijacked by ERG just because opposition's leader could not unite different fractions of Labour or resign.

Shame on all who put party infighting before national interest.
Brexit will damage our economy and No Deal will make us a satellite country of USA.

Which is much worse than being in EU.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> Talking about referendums , The French and a couple of other Eu members had referendums to decide whether to sign the Maastricht or not and the result were very close , just slightly over 50 pc to sign. maybe if we had had a referendum then , we might not be in the mess we are now.


The media, of course, would have persuaded most to reject it and probably would have resulted in an EU exit earlier. No point in being in it if the benefits are rejected.

Then, perhaps, the UK population would never have enjoyed FoM etc. A case of not missing what one never had. Removing something we've taken for granted is another matter.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> He's an arrogant bully .
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...laims-emerge-against-house-of-commons-speaker


So, you'd rather a new speaker be bullied by Johnson? Bullies often meet their match.

I guess they'll appoint one of Johnson's Yes men to replace him.

Whatever people thought of Bercow he was certainly good at keeping order. I guess, by announcing his resignation he couldn't be ousted by Johnson and his upper class thugs.


----------



## rona

It's only the rebels stopping the people having their say. Forcing us to go along with their betrayal of the referendum vote. 
What are they scared of?


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> So, you'd rather a new speaker be bullied by Johnson? Bullies often meet their match.


Who is bullying? 



KittenKong said:


> Whatever people thought of Bercow he was certainly good at keeping order


He created more turmoil....................


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> It's only the rebels stopping the people having their say. Forcing us to go along with their betrayal of the referendum vote.
> What are they scared of?


Yellowhammer papers? What BoJo is scared of?

I don't remember any referendum where NO Deal won?

After being explained to the people.

People voted for anything Brexit, they have no say on reality which is No Deal.
Why would you want Britain to be pushed towards Trump????

Never took you for Trump supporter and BoJo is his British twin.


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> It's only the rebels stopping the people having their say. Forcing us to go along with their betrayal of the referendum vote.
> What are they scared of?


May I politely remind you that, while many remain campaigners did reject Theresa May's Brexit deal, so did the ERG.

And, why are they so scared of having another vote now the truth, rather than the lies they got away with, which Cummings openly admitted to, is out?

It would also confirm if Leavers and, indeed some remainers, would accept leaving with a deal, no deal or Revoke A50.

Some leave voters I know are very worried about the prospect of a no deal exit.

It's wrong to suggest all leave voters to have voted for no deal in the same sense if I was to suggest all remain voters support adopting the Euro and Schengen.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Guest

John Bercow left for personal reasons. He has also stepped down as MP as well. His excuse was to spend more time with his family. I do not recall John Bercow being bullied by Johnson at all, in fact John Bercow was renouned for standing his ground and allowing the back benchers to have a voice in the UK House of Commons.

It will be interesting to see who replaces John Bercow, a leave supporting MP or a remain supporting MP?


----------



## Guest

I see at least the UK Labour party have gone on their party conference in Brighton.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> I see at least the UK Labour party have gone on their party conference in Brighton.


To gloat no doubt!


----------



## Elles

Bercow said he was going to step down for his family a couple of years ago, but then agreed to stay a bit longer. I don’t doubt he’s leaving now before he’s pushed though.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> I see at least the UK Labour party have gone on their party conference in Brighton.


A friend of mine who likes Jeremy Corbyn said he's the most successful leader of the opposition since the war. I had to chuckle and agree. :Hilarious

I pointed out that keeping Labour in opposition wasn't really something to be proud of. 

I know what she meant really, the most successful at blocking what the government are trying to do. Though that isn't Corbyn, it's the cooperation between Remain MPs that's blocking brexit, not Jeremy.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> I see at least the UK Labour party have gone on their party conference in Brighton.


The Labour Party conference starts on the 21st, Corbyn is talking at the TUC conference today.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> I think he's an irritating little twerp.


I think he has been a wonderful speaker as others have already said, he stood up for All Parliament not our corrupt government.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> John Bercow left for personal reasons. He has also stepped down as MP as well. His excuse was to spend more time with his family. I do not recall John Bercow being bullied by Johnson at all, in fact John Bercow was renouned for standing his ground and allowing the back benchers to have a voice in the UK House of Commons.
> 
> It will be interesting to see who replaces John Bercow, a leave supporting MP or a remain supporting MP?


I don't think anyone has said Bercow bullied Johnson? There has been long held accusations of bullying by Bercow to members of staff, the House of Commons as a whole is said to have a problem with MPs and senior staff bullying and misusing junior staff.

Such is the state of UK politics everything is about who voted leave who voted leave, we are a very divided country!


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think he has been a wonderful speaker as others have already said, he stood up for All Parliament not our corrupt government.


Fine. As you will.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/...ows-bollocks-to-brexit-sticker-is-a-disgrace/

I consider this ^^^^ to be puerile and unprofessional.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Makes you almost wish we had her back!


Even NF is starting to look attractive!


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> I beg to differ.


 Fine; no need to beg since no-one is stopping you. (This IS a forum after all.)


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Fine. As you will.
> 
> https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/bercows-bollocks-to-brexit-sticker-is-a-disgrace/https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/bercows-bollocks-to-brexit-sticker-is-a-disgrace/


Sorry....I'm to old to read comics


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry....I'm to old to read comics


No need to be sorry; what are you sorry about? Maybe we can help.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> May I politely remind you that, while many remain campaigners did reject Theresa May's Brexit deal, so did the ERG.
> 
> And, why are they so scared of having another vote now the truth, rather than the lies they got away with, which Cummings openly admitted to, is out?
> 
> It would also confirm if Leavers and, indeed some remainers, would accept leaving with a deal, no deal or Revoke A50.
> 
> Some leave voters I know are very worried about the prospect of a no deal exit.
> 
> It's wrong to suggest all leave voters to have voted for no deal in the same sense if I was to suggest all remain voters support adopting the Euro and Schengen.


Eh? What point are you trying to make?
They are the ones that are blocking a general election. With the Tories now for out, Brexit party out without a deal, Lib Dems for in and god knows what Labour stand for..........surely a GE would sort this out and give the people their say?


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> It's only the rebels stopping the people having their say.


Forgive me, I try not to debate the statistics as that's been gone over plenty of times, but it's kind of unavoidable here.

So how do we define 'the people' in this scenario?

Everyone in the country? Obviously not, as that would mean taking the viewpoints and concerns of people and organisations who would prefer not to leave the EU into account. As people in parliament who are doing that to some degree are now considered rebels stopping 'the people' from having their say, that definition is not valid.

Everyone who voted Leave in 2016? No, can't logically be that either, as some are openly on record as having changed their mind, or voting Leave for a laugh. Plus that would only leave you representing a relatively small percentage of the population, which is hardly democratic.

Everyone who would vote Leave now? Possibly, but the problem here is we don't know how many would and there is no desire from Our Glorious Leaders to ask. And again, that leaves the rest of the population unrepresented.

Everyone who wants Brexit now, whatever the cost and however ill prepared the country is (as in actually WANTS it, not just those who are bored and wish the whole thing was over with)? Lord help us if so, as that can surely only be a very small fraction of people who are mainly either of the ilk who would rush in where angels fear to tread, or know _exactly_ how they would use the ensuing chaos to their advantage for personal profit and power.

Something Else?



rona said:


> Forcing us to go along with their betrayal of the referendum vote.


Wanting some decent planning and sensible agreements before taking a step of the magniude off Brexit is hardly a betrayal of the people. One might argue that the real betrayal has been from those who spent two years stuffing about, moving the goalposts, calling elections and stabbing each other in the back whilst repeatedly reassuring everyone we'd be getting a fabulous deal with nearly all the compromises coming from the EU. In fact, I seem to recall a key promise of the Leave camp was we wouldn't even invoke Article 50 until we had a clear and sensible plan for leaving...



rona said:


> What are they scared of?


Being found out.  Besides, a General Election is NOT the answer here. A General Election is supposed to be about whose party politics you agree with overall, not a single issue. The best way to ask the people what they prefer is to have a vote specifically for that.

Yes, I voted Remain. However, if Our Glorious Leaders had taken a sensible, long term approach and dug some decent, solid foundations before trying to build the Palace of Brexit, I could have lived with that. But they didn't, started chucking up spectacular looking facades, and now seem utterly surprised that gravity exists and it's all coming crashing down around their ears. All in all, it's a spectacular proof of the old adage Fail to Plan=Plan to Fail.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> So, you'd rather a new speaker be bullied by Johnson? Bullies often meet their match.
> 
> I guess they'll appoint one of Johnson's Yes men to replace him.
> 
> Whatever people thought of Bercow he was certainly good at keeping order. I guess, by announcing his resignation he couldn't be ousted by Johnson and his upper class thugs.


I dont think Johnson will last long. I believe harriet harman is applying for the job.

ETA Just remembered she was involved in a scandal about a paedo group . Hope she doesn't get the job.


----------



## kimthecat

cheekyscrip said:


> I don't remember any referendum where NO Deal won?
> 
> .


I dont remember a referendum where Remain won either.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> Bercow said he was going to step down for his family a couple of years ago, but then agreed to stay a bit longer. I don't doubt he's leaving now before he's pushed though.


His wife sally , she's been in Im a celebrity and Big brother and had an alleged affair.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...lams-ego-and-narcissism-of-Speakers-wife.html


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> A friend of mine who likes Jeremy Corbyn said he's the most successful leader of the opposition since the war. I had to chuckle and agree. :Hilarious
> 
> I pointed out that keeping Labour in opposition wasn't really something to be proud of.
> 
> .


It just shows how deluded his followers are . he's Mcdonnell's glove puppet.


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> I dont think Johnson will last long. I believe harriet harman is applying for the job.


And as for Bojo being Trumps puppet, if he carries on the way he's doing Trump's not going to be POTUS for much longer either!

Problem solved!

Too many scandals. Amongst other things the Democrats are investigating how much he's used his position to promote his personal interests.

And then the latest one about having to remove a top mole from Russia because Trump can't keep his big mouth shut ...... and so much more!

https://www.vox.com/2019/8/26/20833650/trump-g7-trump-doral-explained

*Trump's push to hold the G7 at a resort he still owns and profits from, explained*

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/09/09/politics/russia-us-spy-extracted/index.html

*Exclusive: US extracted top spy from inside Russia in 2017*


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Eh? What point are you trying to make?
> They are the ones that are blocking a general election. With the Tories now for out, Brexit party out without a deal, Lib Dems for in and god knows what Labour stand for..........surely a GE would sort this out and give the people their say?


The media have already decided on the outcome of the next GE, though hopefully Johnson won't get a majority.

I believe opposition parties are right to reject the call for a GE without a law that prevents a no deal Brexit, (note-Not Brexit), in situ.

You might argue otherwise but people did vote on the assumption the UK would leave with a deal in 2016.


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> It just shows how deluded his followers are . he's Mcdonnell's glove puppet.


Actually, I think McDonnell would make a better leader and potential PM.

Are you sure you're not getting confused with Shemus Milne and perhaps Len McCluskey?


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> I dont remember a referendum where Remain won either.


Except in Scotland, NI and Gibraltar!


----------



## Guest

Have the United Kingdom appointment their trade negotiator yet?

Phil Hogan (Irelands EU Commissoner) was confirmed as being given the task to negotiate the trade deal with the United Kingdom (if things get that far) after the United Kingdom leaves on the 31st October by incoming Commission president Ursula von der Leyen on Tuesday afternoon at a press conference in Brussels, where she unveiled her new cabinet.

The European Union has said it will not open trade negotiations with the UK until the issues in the withdrawal agreement – including the Irish border and divorce bill payments – are dealt with to its satisfaction.

The current and incoming European Union commissions and presidents have said the European Union is ready for the United Kingdoms no deal exit on the withdrawal agreement as it has finished preparing everything for such an event.

Boris Johnson and the United Kingdoms Parliament have very little time left to make up its mind on what the United Kingdom is going to do.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jesthar said:


> Forgive me, I try not to debate the statistics as that's been gone over plenty of times, but it's kind of unavoidable here.
> 
> So how do we define 'the people' in this scenario?
> 
> Everyone in the country? Obviously not, as that would mean taking the viewpoints and concerns of people and organisations who would prefer not to leave the EU into account. As people in parliament who are doing that to some degree are now considered rebels stopping 'the people' from having their say, that definition is not valid.
> 
> Everyone who voted Leave in 2016? No, can't logically be that either, as some are openly on record as having changed their mind, or voting Leave for a laugh. Plus that would only leave you representing a relatively small percentage of the population, which is hardly democratic.
> 
> Everyone who would vote Leave now? Possibly, but the problem here is we don't know how many would and there is no desire from Our Glorious Leaders to ask. And again, that leaves the rest of the population unrepresented.
> 
> Everyone who wants Brexit now, whatever the cost and however ill prepared the country is (as in actually WANTS it, not just those who are bored and wish the whole thing was over with)? Lord help us if so, as that can surely only be a very small fraction of people who are mainly either of the ilk who would rush in where angels fear to tread, or know _exactly_ how they would use the ensuing chaos to their advantage for personal profit and power.
> 
> Something Else?
> 
> Wanting some decent planning and sensible agreements before taking a step of the magniude off Brexit is hardly a betrayal of the people. One might argue that the real betrayal has been from those who spent two years stuffing about, moving the goalposts, calling elections and stabbing each other in the back whilst repeatedly reassuring everyone we'd be getting a fabulous deal with nearly all the compromises coming from the EU. In fact, I seem to recall a key promise of the Leave camp was we wouldn't even invoke Article 50 until we had a clear and sensible plan for leaving...
> 
> Being found out.  Besides, a General Election is NOT the answer here. A General Election is supposed to be about whose party politics you agree with overall, not a single issue. The best way to ask the people what they prefer is to have a vote specifically for that.
> 
> Yes, I voted Remain. However, if Our Glorious Leaders had taken a sensible, long term approach and dug some decent, solid foundations before trying to build the Palace of Brexit, I could have lived with that. But they didn't, started chucking up spectacular looking facades, and now seem utterly surprised that gravity exists and it's all coming crashing down around their ears. All in all, it's a spectacular proof of the old adage Fail to Plan=Plan to Fail.


Brilliant post Jesthar, I too wonder who are the people. As we have heard `The Will of the People` so often I presume The People only includes those that voted leave but are the no- dealers, those that shouted traitor at TM and the MPs who voted for her deal, more people-y than those that wanted a deal and shouted traitor at MPs who did not vote for TMs deal?

What are The People to do in a GE, some will not vote Tory or Brexit Party despite being part of The people, do they become ex Will of The People if they vote for labour, Lib Dem, Green etc.

Its all very confusing


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Except in Scotland, NI and Gibraltar!


and London ! Unfortunately the referendum was on behalf of the United Kingdom of Great Britain of which we are all part of.

perhaps if Scotland had known at the time of their last referendum for Independence that we would leave the EU , they might have voted to leave the UK first.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Actually, I think McDonnell would make a better leader and potential PM.
> 
> Are you sure you're not getting confused with Shemus Milne and perhaps Len McCluskey?


No I'm not 
. Ive said the same about McDonnell . He's much more articulate and clued up than Corbyn and supports remain because he thinks it will help Labour win and election. . Hes the power behind the throne and they've as thick as thieves. for years. .


----------



## kimthecat

:Hilarious


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> So how do we define 'the people' in this scenario?


Everyone that has the right to vote of course


----------



## rona

Jesthar said:


> Wanting some decent planning and sensible agreements before taking a step of the magniude off Brexit is hardly a betrayal of the people.


But none of them have any plans



Jesthar said:


> if Our Glorious Leaders had taken a sensible, long term approach and dug some decent, solid foundations before trying to build the Palace of Brexit


Agreed. It's done one of the things I wanted the out vote to do, shaken up our political system and shown just how self centered and inward looking our politicians have become


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious


:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> But none of them have any plans
> 
> Agreed. It's done one of the things I wanted the out vote to do, shaken up our political system and shown just how self centered and inward looking our politicians have become


Do you think when the UK leaves the European Union politics will change in the UK?

Brexit certainly has made the UK Parliament fragile I think. The trust from the public in the UK with the UK MP's seems to be lost. No one seems to know what is happening and I read how unstable things are in the UK Parliament. The UK is divided as well in all directions. Something needs to change to unite the UK Parliament at least as the UK Parliament seems to be going in various directions. Brexit seems to be tearing the UK Parliament apart.


----------



## rona

saartje said:


> Do you think when the UK leaves the European Union politics will change in the UK?


No, but I think the whole event will stop them taking theirs and our future for granted. They'll still be money grabbing, arrogant, opinionated and obnoxious, but hopefully a little more cautious.

Even my local council has been found out for spending the equivalent of my council tax on orange juice on just one of their jollies, how much else they spent is anyones guess.

Things like this cannot be allowed to carry on. People are struggling to eat and these people swan around on our money


----------



## KittenKong

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious


While this might have been true in the past, Corbyn is wise to refrain from this, this time.

Nothing to do with being a coward, or fearing he would lose, but he wants the law to avoid a no deal Brexit to be set in stone, which the Tories would have difficulty in Revoking even if they won the next GE.

Then, even if they did, they'd probably prorouge Parliament again to do so.

I've been critical of Corbyn, but he's right in this instance.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Obviously Yellowhammer is just scaremongering on the part of government, but deep in the closet so why BoJo is so worried about GE after No
Deal?

It will be the easiest No Deal ...

Frankly ERG does not even care about the future of Tories...


----------



## Guest

Scottish highest court of appeal has ruled that Boris Johnson suspending UK Parliament is unlawful.

The case will now be heard at the UK Supreme Court.


----------



## KittenKong

"Legal"? Not according to today's ruling!


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> Everyone that has the right to vote of course


So should those who have no right to vote have no right to be heard at all, and just accept they are subject to the desires of those who do? Not so long ago, that would have been my lot simply because I was born a girl.

Also, don't forget that who has the right to vote is always determined by those in power. Am I to infer from your opinion that if they chose to withdraw the vote from a group of the populace that included you, you would be happy with that decision?



rona said:


> But none of them have any plans


True enough. So the logical option is still to put this whole debacle on hold until they DO have some proper, workable plans (like Leave promised in their referendum literature) for an orderly, prepared Brexit. Whether that ends up being for a deal or not is immaterial, it's the preparation that is key. And we've had no chance for any kind of useful preparation thanks to Our Glorious Leaders squabbling amongst themselves for two years straight.



rona said:


> Agreed. It's done one of the things I wanted the out vote to do, shaken up our political system and shown just how self centered and inward looking our politicians have become


It won't change the fact that those people are still in charge, though. And it certainly hasn't touched the real Powers That Be - made them stronger, if anything. Division always does.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I would have thought Johnson/Cummings would want parliament to be sitting so they could attempt to get an election via the short law. He couldn't do that last week due to their own decision to suspend parliament, there was no time (should Johnson win that vote, only needs a majority of one so is possible he would) to get it through the commons and lords. If they come back now and manage to bring forward an election Parliament would be automatically suspended for 25 days anyway.


----------



## KittenKong

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 416193
> View attachment 416194
> 
> "Legal"? Not according to today's ruling!


Would be interesting to see if the English court of appeal overturns the Scottish ruling, as I believe they might do.

That would further fuel the appetite for Scottish independence!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

KittenKong said:


> Would be interesting to see if the English court of appeal overturns the Scottish ruling, as I believe they might do.
> 
> That would further fuel the appetite for Scottish independence!


 Why was Johnson so desperate to suspend parliament anyway! The bill on asking the EU for an extension if no deal by the 19th October, became law on Monday so suspending the parliament has no effect on that. 
Why are they bothering to appeal the courts decision today? 
Everything is moving so fast and so much chaos I`m struggling to follow it all!


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> A friend of mine who likes Jeremy Corbyn said he's the most successful leader of the opposition since the war.


He's an utterly brilliant 'people person'. Whatever your politics (and his aren't mine) it's very difficult to dislike him in the flesh.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Would be interesting to see if the English court of appeal overturns the Scottish ruling, as I believe they might do.
> 
> That would further fuel the appetite for Scottish independence!


I thought a Scottish judge recently ruled its legal , The gets so confusing.
A judge at the highest court in Scotland has found the Prime Minister's planned prorogation of Parliament lawful. Legal action aimed at preventing the UK Government suspending Parliament ahead of the Brexit deadline of October 31 was considered at the Court of Session in Edinburgh. Lord Doherty revealed his decision that the prorogation was lawful on Wednesday morning.
 More From ITN 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ms-prorogation-of-parliament-legal/vi-AAGN8p7


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*

*Corbyn so reasonable supporter worried he's been drugged*
11th September 2019









*JEREMY Corbyn is taking political positions so rational that a worried supporter is afraid he is being drugged and controlled. *

Momentum member Nathan Muir fears that the only way Corbyn could have been stopped from totally screwing up efforts against no-deal would be if he was kept docile on tranquilisers and manipulated by shadowy advisers.

He said: "I kept waiting for Corbyn to blow it. To suddenly back an election. To demand the SNP install him as leader. Or simply to not turn up because of a meeting of the Wakefield Free Cuba society.

"But somehow he glided through the entire thing and even now shows no sign of abandoning his sensible positions for anything suicidal. So that proves it.

"I'm going to mask up, break into Labour HQ, smuggle Corbyn out disguised as a grumpy old caretaker, and deprogramme him on my allotment.

"I'm confident that within 48 hours he'll be shunning all co-operation with the Lib Dems, claiming only he can deliver a worker's Brexit and delivering the next election direct to Boris.

"It'll be better that way, because he'll remain ideologically pure."


----------



## Elles

3dogs2cats said:


> Why was Johnson so desperate to suspend parliament anyway! The bill on asking the EU for an extension if no deal by the 19th October, became law on Monday so suspending the parliament has no effect on that.
> Why are they bothering to appeal the courts decision today?
> Everything is moving so fast and so much chaos I`m struggling to follow it all!


They (remainers) planned on going to court to force parliament to remain open during conference season, which would prevent Boris from travelling to Brussels to get a deal, or travelling around the country to promote his election ambitions. By adding a few extra days with the prorogation, they now have to hold their conferences and wait for the Queen's speech. Corbyn is still hoping to kick Boris out and form a government with the other parties, there's less time for this to be organised, as they'll have to vote on the queen's speech when they get back. Others are saying that they won't form a government under Corbyn anyway.

They are still trying to get the courts to force them back and sitting during conference season and pronounce the prorogation illegal, which it isn't. It took the Scottish judges 4 minutes without hearing any evidence to sort of pronounce it illegal. It's going to take them until Friday to give their full report on a 4 minute session. They (remainers) want the prorogation overturned and parliament back on Monday, before its heard again in London on Tuesday, but the Scottish court hasn't gone that far.


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="Elles, post: 1065497286, member: 1291226"
They are still trying to get the courts to force them back and sitting during conference season and pronounce the prorogation illegal, which it isn't. It took the Scottish judges 4 minutes without hearing any evidence to sort of pronounce it illegal. It's going to take them until Friday to give their full report on a 4 minute session. They (remainers) want the prorogation overturned and parliament back on Monday, before its heard again in London on Tuesday, but the Scottish court hasn't gone that far.[/QUOTE]

As a remainer I have no problem with a prorogation, but normally it's only for a few days, so why does he want to close Parliament for so long unless his trying to stop them from debating a deal. Not that he seems bothered about getting one, he needs to get his backside over to Brussels and start talking rather than floating round the country touting for votes, and lying to the country. He wants to leave without a deal, so be honest man, we aren't daft.

All the other parties have said they will cancel their conferences this year if needed.


----------



## havoc

Prorogation is not illegal in itself but there is a correct procedure which has to be followed for it to be legal. If you're going to take such drastic action it's pretty important to get it right and if you don't then your motives will be questioned. This is the clearest explanation I've seen.
https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/legal-expert-david-allen-green-prorogation/


----------



## samuelsmiles3

I think, at every step of the way, it's now turned into a battle of the law.

Is it even legal to leave the EU?


----------



## havoc

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I think, at every step of the way, it's now turned into a battle of the law.


Well when either party choose to use the courts then you'd think they have the wherewithal to get their documentation in order. There was no reason for the appeal process to take more than four minutes without considering any evidence because there was none - it was a lack of it which had to be considered.


----------



## Magyarmum

samuelsmiles3 said:


> I think, at every step of the way, it's now turned into a battle of the law.
> 
> Is it even legal to leave the EU?


An interesting perspective in an article I read the other day.

Please note, I'm not a lawyer and therefore haven't the knowledge to know how correct or biased the article is ...... just saying!

https://independencedaily.co.uk/sov...s/?utm_source=mailpoet&utm_medium=email&utm_c

*Sovereign Equality and Reciprocity: The Only Acceptable Basis for UK-EU Relations*


----------



## havoc

It's a good and well argued opinion piece from someone who wishes to remain anonymous. There would be perfectly good counter arguments. The law isn't as cut and dried as some like to think. If it were we would have no need for courts and judges.


----------



## KittenKong

https://news.sky.com/story/former-t...-gyimah-defects-to-liberal-democrats-11809637


----------



## cheekyscrip

I just wonder why, when I mention BoJo or Trump are liars anyone comes with “ all politicians are liars “ as it was good enough justification?

Because if they all left, right and center are dirty liars, self promoting opportunists like those above then what is a point of anything?

Any election et al ?

I remember times when politicians caught lying had to resign?

Why should we accept liars ?

Why it should be acceptable as same as “fake news”?



I believe there are honest people in politics.

Why some of them should be expelled by liars?

People who speak what they think is right and true are expelled.

Or silenced.

We will have government led by liars and backed by nodding Brown Noses.

If we accept it as a nation, if we allow people like Clarke to be dismissed like piece of rubbish?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

cheekyscrip said:


> I just wonder why, when I mention BoJo or Trump are liars anyone comes with " all politicians are liars " as it was good enough justification?
> 
> Because if they all left, right and center are dirty liars, self promoting opportunists like those above then what is a point of anything?
> 
> Any election et al ?
> 
> I remember times when politicians caught lying had to resign?
> 
> Why should we accept liars ?
> 
> Why it should be acceptable as same as "fake news"?
> 
> We accept it when it fits our own beliefs, we either don't believe they are lying or even when we know they are its ok because we like the lies.
> 
> I believe there are honest people in politics.
> 
> Why some of them should be expelled by liars?
> 
> People who speak what they think is right and true are expelled.
> 
> Or silenced.
> 
> We will have government led by liars and backed by nodding Brown Noses.
> 
> If we accept it as a nation, if we allow people like Clarke to be dismissed like piece of rubbish?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

What has happened to the quotes? I definitely replied to cheeky but its not shown!


----------



## Elles

I see that at least one of the conservatives sacked by Boris has joined the Lib Dems and is vowing to ‘stop Brexit as there is no deal that is better than staying in the Eu.’ Another one. As I said, many of those saying they just want to prevent a no deal Brexit, but accept the referendum result were lying. All this legal stuff is to stop Brexit at all costs, regardless of any voting by the public. Past, or future. We need to accept that many of the people we expect to have integrity and support democracy actually don’t and have been lying about it. Which is worse than any lies a known liar tells.

Boris Johnson and his supporters are now the only ones in government who actually want to deliver any kind of Brexit it seems.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> I see that at least one of the conservatives sacked by Boris has joined the Lib Dems and is vowing to 'stop Brexit as there is no deal that is better than staying in the Eu.' Another one. As I said, many of those saying they just want to prevent a no deal Brexit, but accept the referendum result were lying. All this legal stuff is to stop Brexit at all costs, regardless of any voting by the public. Past, or future. We need to accept that many of the people we expect to have integrity and support democracy actually don't and have been lying about it. Which is worse than any lies a known liar tells.
> 
> Boris Johnson and his supporters are now the only ones in government who actually want to deliver any kind of Brexit it seems.


The European Unions other 27 countries leaders are helping the United Kingdom Parliament by allowing these extensions so the United Kingdom changes its mind and stays in the European Union. Seems to be working slowly.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> The European Unions other 27 countries leaders are helping the United Kingdom Parliament by allowing these extensions so the United Kingdom changes its mind and stays in the European Union. Seems to be working slowly.


 If the UK changes its mind then fair enough but I doubt the other 27 countries are allowing extensions in the hope of that, they do not want to be seen as the ones to enforce leaving without a deal. Johnson would like them to say no extension because then he can blame them should the UK suffer from leaving without a deal.


----------



## cheekyscrip

3dogs2cats said:


> What has happened to the quotes? I definitely replied to cheeky but its not shown!


Cannot see it? Hmmm...


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I see that at least one of the conservatives sacked by Boris has joined the Lib Dems and is vowing to 'stop Brexit as there is no deal that is better than staying in the Eu.' Another one. As I said, many of those saying they just want to prevent a no deal Brexit, but accept the referendum result were lying. All this legal stuff is to stop Brexit at all costs, regardless of any voting by the public. Past, or future. We need to accept that many of the people we expect to have integrity and support democracy actually don't and have been lying about it. Which is worse than any lies a known liar tells.
> 
> Boris Johnson and his supporters are now the only ones in government who actually want to deliver any kind of Brexit it seems.


There was no referendum about No Deal Brexit?

On the contrary in 2016 voters were told that there will be a deal, the easiest ever and best deal?

Why then ERG did not put No Deal to PV?

How do you now that majority of Th People want just any kind of Brexit, no matter how suicidal it might be?

Why ERG cannot explain what is likely to happen and if they have no idea then admit that the Government takes a gamble on our lives, but that is fine as JMR and BoJo are multimillionaires and have no problem with shortages.

People didn't vote for whatever?

They voted for example for what they saw on the buses and pro Brexit ads?

Maybe people were voting for what is good for Britain not what is good for ERG?

No Deal was and is THE WORST POSSIBLE OUTCOME.

For everyone except Trump, Putin and ERG.


----------



## Elles

They voted to leave the Eu. That is the one certainty in all of this. Remainers, including the guy in charge, told us a number of times that if they couldn’t get a deal, they would leave without one. If you want to leave an exclusive club, do you actually care about leaving it with a deal and paying to leave it?

What you really mean is that you don’t want to leave the Eu. 

PS did you vote leave because of what you read on a bus? No? So maybe stop assuming that’s why 17.5 million British people voted to leave an Eu they’d been campaigning to leave for donkey’s years?


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> People didn't vote for whatever?
> 
> They voted for example for what they saw on the buses and pro Brexit ads?


How do you know this?

The bus, ads and press had no influence on me whatsoever. My mind was made up years ago and even now has not been changed. We need to get out


----------



## KittenKong

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=769801350143944&id=736307636826649


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> How do you know this?
> 
> The bus, ads and press had no influence on me whatsoever. My mind was made up years ago and even now has not been changed. We need to get out


Why? We don't need to get out.

EU needs to be better and we should be the change not the quitters.

We are heading for much worse with Trump, Putin and China.

We had deals with the whole world and it will be very naive to think we get better on our own, especially led by BoJo, such a success as Foreign Secretary....

So Farage , Trump and ERG said we should go out! Who needs the buses, the press or whatever, after such a recommendation!!!


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> So Farage , Trump and ERG said we should go out! Who needs the buses, the press or whatever, after such a recommendation!!!


You forget the people.....a majority of which voted out

I also beg to differ, we do need to get out before we get swallowed by the collective

We can be part of Europe without being ruled by Europe


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> You forget the people.....a majority of which voted out
> 
> I also beg to differ, we do need to get out before we get swallowed by the collective
> 
> We can be part of Europe without being ruled by Europe


Of course, we can lean towards USA or Russia, or now seems even both.
I am sure than more than 4% of Leave voters we sure there will be a good deal with EU.

There was no PV , binding one showing consequences of No Deal plus admitting what is a pure gamble and then letting The People to decide instead of BoJo telling us he is defending the will of the people.

How do you know majority want No Deal and as BoE predicted our economy shrinking by 9%?
How wonderful deal we will have to replace those we have already.

How much can we trust Trump and Putin?

Much as I don't trust French or German I assure you: USA and Russia will swallow our sovereignty.
Will buy out land, flats, businesses and politicians ( actually those are bought already).

I worked in Russia, had scholarship in USA and obviously lived many years in EU.

This is USA and Russia that we should fear not EU.
To impoverish Britain to get out of MIFID2 and leave it wide open be swallowed by Trump??

Britain is not an Empire but in comparison with USA and Russia - just a tasty morsel for grabs.

I am sure ERG will make a kill on that sale.


----------



## KittenKong

Perhaps he forgot to take a change of clothes with him after calming down from becoming the Hulk?:Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 416767
> 
> Perhaps he forgot to take a change of clothes with him after calming down from becoming the Hulk?:Hilarious
> View attachment 416768


That's what Boris does , he avoids things. Same with the 3rd runway vote. Its an exaggeration to say the Luxemburg PM is ridiculing him , it implies he is being nasty but he is making a point in an amusing way .


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> Of course, we can lean towards USA or Russia, or now seems even both.
> I am sure than more than 4% of Leave voters we sure there will be a good deal with EU.
> 
> There was no PV , binding one showing consequences of No Deal plus admitting what is a pure gamble and then letting The People to decide instead of BoJo telling us he is defending the will of the people.
> 
> How do you know majority want No Deal and as BoE predicted our economy shrinking by 9%?
> How wonderful deal we will have to replace those we have already.
> 
> How much can we trust Trump and Putin?
> 
> Much as I don't trust French or German I assure you: USA and Russia will swallow our sovereignty.
> Will buy out land, flats, businesses and politicians ( actually those are bought already).
> 
> I worked in Russia, had scholarship in USA and obviously lived many years in EU.
> 
> This is USA and Russia that we should fear not EU.
> To impoverish Britain to get out of MIFID2 and leave it wide open be swallowed by Trump??
> 
> Britain is not an Empire but in comparison with USA and Russia - just a tasty morsel for grabs.
> 
> I am sure ERG will make a kill on that sale.


I unlike others have never claimed that I know what others want unlike others on here,
I'm sorry you've lived through some terrible times in other countries but I have live in the UK all my life and have more faith obviously in the British people.
I don't believe for one minute that the majority are becoming racist and bigots. I can only see a country not wanting to lose it's identity


----------



## cheekyscrip

rona said:


> I unlike others have never claimed that I know what others want unlike others on here,
> I'm sorry you've lived through some terrible times in other countries but I have live in the UK all my life and have more faith obviously in the British people.
> I don't believe for one minute that the majority are becoming racist and bigots. I can only see a country not wanting to lose it's identity


I never said I don't believe British or other nations, but Britain will be gobbled up by Trump and Putin. I don't trust them and they are behind Brexit.

Our new BBF are far more dangerous than the old ones.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> I never said I don't believe British or other nations, but Britain will be gobbled up by Trump and Putin. I don't trust them and they are behind Brexit.
> 
> Our new BBF are far more dangerous than the old ones.


Can't see it myself, we are still European after all


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Why? We don't need to get out.


According to the other thread the people of North Devon need to get out more. :Hilarious

Trump and Putin are going to gobble us up? The Eu already pays our farmers to not grow food, what are Trump and Putin offering, so we can consider it? If Trump and Putin are going to take over where the Eu left off, shouldn't we get a vote on it?


----------



## KittenKong

rona said:


> Can't see it myself, we are still European after all


The only western Europeans isolated from the rest of Europe as far as FoM and the SM/CU, even from the Irish Republic possibly too and Scotland, should it become independent.

If Norway, Iceland and Switzerland who are not in the EU have such benefits, why are UK politicians determined we do not?


----------



## cheekyscrip

KittenKong said:


> The only western Europeans isolated from the rest of Europe as far as FoM and the SM/CU, even from the Irish Republic possibly too and Scotland, should it become independent.
> 
> If Norway, Iceland and Switzerland who are not in the EU have such benefits, why are UK politicians determined we do not?


Why do they want to drag us out of EEA?

Costs ?

But what about costs of not being a part of EEA?

Do you think Swiss cannot count?
I understand why out of EU and MIFID2.

But why out of Single Market?

Lots of people who voted Leave thought no one is irresponsible enough to drag our country out of Single Market!!!


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> We can be part of Europe without being ruled by Europe


 You will remember that in 2016 several people, including a few on PF, seemed to think that Europe and EU were one and the same, as tho' ''EU'' was an abbreviation of ''Europe'', that we were leaving Europe and would no longer be European (Christ only knows what they thought we would morph into!).


----------



## Calvine

cheekyscrip said:


> I don't trust them and they are behind Brexit.


 I think I've heard it all now. Trump was not even President in June 2016 and in fact it was Obama who was over here telling us all what we should be voting for. I know Trump is a clown, but he can't be blamed for Brexit which preceded his inauguration.


----------



## rona

KittenKong said:


> The only western Europeans isolated from the rest of Europe as far as FoM and the SM/CU, even from the Irish Republic possibly too and Scotland, should it become independent.
> 
> If *Norway, Iceland and Switzerland *who are not in the EU have such benefits, why are UK politicians determined we do not?


All countries with very impressive economies. Even Iceland got itself out of a very big hole within a few few years unlike the twenty years we've had to endure


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> We are heading for much worse with Trump, Putin and China.


You keep using China, America and Russia as scare tactics (in this thread and the other one) to why the United Kingdom should not leave the European Union. Why?

The European Union has trade deals with all these countries and not once have you mentioned that.

China: https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/china/index_en.htm

Russia: https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/russia/index_en.htm

America: https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/united-states/index_en.htm

Are you now going to say the European Union is at the mercy of these Russia, China and America because the European Union already have agreements with them?

The European Union and the United States have the largest bilateral trade and investment relationship and enjoy the most integrated economic relationship in the world.

China is now the European Unions second-biggest trading partner behind the United States and the European Union is China's biggest trading partner.

Russia is the European Unions fourth largest trading partner and the European Union is Russia's biggest trading partner.


----------



## kimthecat

@KittenKong Saw this on a fence at Uni of Westminster next to Northwick park Hospital today and thought of you


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Much as I don't trust French or German I assure you: USA and Russia will swallow our sovereignty.
> Will buy out *land, flats, businesses* and politicians ( actually those are bought already).


All of those things are already happening within the EU. What will make it different when we leave?


----------



## Magyarmum

MilleD said:


> All of those things are already happening within the EU. What will make it different when we leave?


And this is only the property market and doesn't cover investments in other areas

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...Flow-Russian-money-London-property-slows.html

*Flow of Russian cash into London property slows following government pressure and stricter money laundering rules*

https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliver...-are-finding-bargains-in-london/#26a37a585278

*Rich Americans Are Finding Bargains In London*

https://www.pearl-coutts.co.uk/the-...nese-investment-in-london-commercial-property

*Chinese Investment in London Commercial Property*


----------



## havoc

saartje said:


> The European Union and the United States have the largest bilateral trade and investment relationship and enjoy the most integrated economic relationship in the world


True and it works because one of the parties doesn't hold all the cards. Sometimes size does matter.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Magyarmum said:


> And this is only the property market and doesn't cover investments in other areas
> 
> https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...Flow-Russian-money-London-property-slows.html
> 
> *Flow of Russian cash into London property slows following government pressure and stricter money laundering rules*
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/oliver...-are-finding-bargains-in-london/#26a37a585278
> 
> *Rich Americans Are Finding Bargains In London*
> 
> https://www.pearl-coutts.co.uk/the-...nese-investment-in-london-commercial-property
> 
> *Chinese Investment in London Commercial Property*


When we are out of MIFID2 and desperate for investors who will look how clean their money is?

Then who owns enough business in UK owns the politicians... ERG has lots of interest in Russia... Bow Group as an example?

If you think EU was buying out?
Nothing in comparison what will come...

China, Russia, USA ...

EU is in much better position to get fair deals with those powers than Britain on their own.
Now EU will be weaker and Britain too.

Money spent by Russia on Brexit were a good investment.

I speak Russian and work in finance.

Russian businessmen are very happy with the turmoil and ready for Brexit.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> When we are out of MIFID2 and desperate for investors who will look how clean their money is?
> 
> Then who owns enough business in UK owns the politicians... ERG has lots of interest in Russia... Bow Group as an example?
> 
> If you think EU was buying out?
> Nothing in comparison what will come...
> 
> China, Russia, USA ...
> 
> EU is in much better position to get fair deals with those powers than Britain on their own.
> Now EU will be weaker and Britain too.
> 
> Money spent by Russia on Brexit were a good investment.
> 
> I speak Russian and work in finance.
> 
> Russian businessmen are very happy with the turmoil and ready for Brexit.


You don't have much confidence in the United Kingdom going solo do you?

The European Union is not weaker at all. Please provide links to facts to back this assumption up.

Trade deals with the United Kingdom is what will come from America, China and Russia if the United Kingdom decides to trade with any of these countries. If the United Kingdom plays its cards right they could get very good trade deals.

Explain to me why the United Kingdom is incapable of striking its own trade deals? It has already got some trade deals lined up with South Korea, Switzerland etc. They seem to be doing ok so far.


----------



## havoc

saartje said:


> Explain to me why the United Kingdom is incapable of striking its own trade deals?


Have you seen the quality of the people we have in power to 'strike' these deals 
Aside from trade deals, which most ordinary individuals won't have the faintest idea about, there's far more at stake which could affect the quality of life for all but those at the few who would benefit. The combination of a right wing elite in power and the loss of overarching protections for mere mortals could be disasterous.


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> You don't have much confidence in the United Kingdom going solo do you?
> 
> The European Union is not weaker at all. Please provide links to facts to back this assumption up.
> 
> Trade deals with the United Kingdom is what will come from America, China and Russia if the United Kingdom decides to trade with any of these countries. If the United Kingdom plays its cards right they could get very good trade deals.
> 
> Explain to me why the United Kingdom is incapable of striking its own trade deals? It has already got some trade deals lined up with South Korea, Switzerland etc. They seem to be doing ok so far.


and how long to you think it will take to get these deals, you don't get them overnight, they have already said the US deal could take over 12 months that's if you want to sell our soul to Trump.

and why we are sorting things out with all these countries, who are we going to trade with.


----------



## Guest

havoc said:


> Have you seen the quality of the people we have in power to 'strike' these deals
> Aside from trade deals, which most ordinary individuals won't have the faintest idea about, there's far more at stake which could affect the quality of life for all but those at the few who would benefit. The combination of a right wing elite in power and the loss of overarching protections for mere mortals could be disasterous.


They seem to have done ok so far striking trade deals for when the United Kingdom leaves the European Union.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> and how long to you think it will take to get these deals, you don't get them overnight, they have already said the US deal could take over 12 months that's if you want to sell our soul to Trump.
> 
> and why we are sorting things out with all these countries, who are we going to trade with.


Again the United Kingdom Government seem to have managed so far. They have a number of trade deals signed and lined up for when the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. America seems to have a trade deal lined up as well as Australia and New Zealand. America are from what I understand ready to sign but are ironing out a few details.


----------



## Elles

I’m sure they’ll cope. The wealthy striking trade deals with each other, probably wasn’t a major consideration. If they get good deals with China, America and Russia, as well as Australia, who are ready to sign the day we leave, Canada, New Zealand and various other places, we’ll probably all benefit. Trade also helps bring about peace and can be influential. Tbh I’m not that concerned about leaving without a deal.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> and how long to you think it will take to get these deals, you don't get them overnight, they have already said the US deal could take over 12 months that's if you want to sell our soul to Trump.
> 
> and why we are sorting things out with all these countries, who are we going to trade with.


Do not forget the European Union already has trade deals with America, Russia and China (I posted links on previous page) so why can't the United Kingdom have its own trade deals with these countries if it wants to.


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> They seem to have done ok so far striking trade deals for when the United Kingdom leaves the European Union.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade-agreements-with-non-eu-countries-in-a-no-deal-brexit

*UK trade agreements with non-EU countries in a no-deal Brexit*


----------



## havoc

saartje said:


> America are from what I understand ready to sign but are ironing out the few details.


Ever heard the saying 'the devil's in the detail'.


----------



## Happy Paws2

saartje said:


> Do not forget the European Union already has trade deals with America, Russia and China (I posted links on previous page) *so why can't the United Kingdom have its own trade deals with these countries if it wants to*.


I didn't say we couldn't but it will take time.



saartje said:


> Again the United Kingdom Government seem to have managed so far. They have a number of trade deals signed and lined up for when the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. America seems to have a trade deal lined up as well as Australia and New Zealand. America are from what I understand ready to sign but are ironing out a few details.


I thought do deals were to be signed until we had left.


----------



## Guest

People are missing the point as well. That point is if the United Kingdom leaves with no deal to the withdrawal agreement they still have to negotiate a trade deal with the European Union when the United Kingdom does leave the European Union.


----------



## Guest

Happy Paws2 said:


> I didn't say we couldn't but it will take time.


Deals have already been signed but they won't start trading until the United Kingdom leaves the European Union.



> I thought do deals were to be signed until we had left.


Some deals have already been signed but the United Kingdom will not start using these trade deals until it leaves the European Union.


----------



## Guest

havoc said:


> Ever heard the saying 'the devil's in the detail'.


Well that is for the United Kingdom Government to decide on isn't it as they will be in charge of the trade deals the United Kingdom will have.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> Do not forget the European Union already has trade deals with America, Russia and China (I posted links on previous page) so why can't the United Kingdom have its own trade deals with these countries if it wants to.


Of course. But they will not be as beneficial as those we have . Because Britain will be in dire need and others not. Also because most deals benefit the stronger party and less needy.
This is exactly why countries join to form various trading blocs. EU is the strongest of them.

Britain is no longer an empire and our economy will shrink after Brexit even further.

It is not my sentiment or trust but market sentiment that made the pound fall drastically after referendum and our economy fell behind France...

Foolishly I still prefer the opinions of experts like BoE to UKIP voters.

I don't say Britain will not survive but it will be worse.

Compare our economic growth after 2008 recession and what happened after referendum.
Imagine the billions lost in every % of lost growth.

That could have gone to the budget.

Plus costs of Brexit.

What for? To make that splendid deal with Trump?

Do you really think America First man will not suck Britain dry?

There is no splendid isolation in the world of business and becoming a satellite country of Trump led USA is not a position I want Britain to be in.

Under strict EU regulators money laundering in UK and elsewhere in EU fell considerably.

Getting out of MIFID2 not even EEA will let Russia and China to flood Britain with very suspicious money and very unsavoury owners.

Basically I don't want gangsters in fancy suits to buy Britain like they bought Chelsea.

Then they will rule.

As my Russian friend whom I quoted before said before referendum "There will be Brexit and we will buy this country".

He also thought that is time Russians put that country in order, finished with all that parliamentary mess, power to the people- look where it got them?... benefits, pensions and so on...

So there we go...

Russian business likes ERG very much and wants them in power, links to generous support were exposed already.

Aaron Banks who bankrolled Brexit just as example.

I don't trust Aaron Banks , I don't trust ERG and BoJo, I don't trust Trump.

British people should not trust them either.

It has nothing to do with trusting British people, but those of British people who trust the above might be very optimistic and enthusiastic but they have IMO rather poor judgment.

At very least we should have stayed in EEA, should get kind of Switzerland type deal.

Switzerland values their privacy very highly but they know that for the business purposes access to Single Market is essential.

Swiss are very good like that.


----------



## rona

cheekyscrip said:


> UKIP voters


There aren't many of them any more


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> UKIP voters.


I thought it was the Brexit Party now not UKIP.


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> But they will not be as beneficial as those we have .


How do you know this for sure? Have you seen the future trade deals the United Kingdom will have with America, China and Russia? I didn't know they are available for the public to see yet. Links would be nice if they are available.



> Because Britain will be in dire need and others not.


The United Kingdom already has signed trade deals for the day it leaves the European Union but cannot start these trade deals until it leaves the European Union. So I am guessing this sentence is an attempt to scaremonger people.

FACTS speak louder than personal assumptions and attempts at scaremongering. Links to sources would help.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> How do you know this for sure? Have you seen the future trade deals the United Kingdom will have with America, China and Russia? I didn't know they are available for the public to see yet. Links would be nice if they are available.
> 
> The United Kingdom already has signed trade deals for the day it leaves the European Union but cannot start these trade deals until it leaves the European Union. So I am guessing this sentence is an attempt to scaremonger people.
> 
> FACTS speak louder than personal assumptions and attempts at scaremongering. Links to sources would help.


Fact is after No Deal we will have no deals, just WTO.

As to UKiP etc... " the name of rose"...

Yes, weaker country will no deals is in worse negotiating position than much bigger country with deals with everyone, EU etc...

That is a fact. Negotiating position depends on your strength.

Do you think Trump will favour Britain over USA? His lobbies against ours?

Scaremongering??? 
BoJo versus Putin. BoJo versus Trump and you say that will go great???

Market sentiment towards Britain is pretty obvious.

Brexit will be like one grand Black Friday.


----------



## rona

According to Yougov, Boris is gaining in popularity 
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...te-difficulties-parliament-boris-has-grown-po


----------



## Guest

Do you ever read links people put one here?

Quoted from: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade-agreements-with-non-eu-countries-in-a-no-deal-brexit

*Trade agreements that have been signed*
_Agreements with the following countries and trading blocs will take effect when the UK leaves the EU:_

_Andean countries_
_CARIFORUM trade bloc_
_Central America_
_Chile_
_Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc _
_Faroe Islands_
_Iceland and Norway_
_Israel_
_Liechtenstein_
_Pacific states_
_Palestinian Authority_
_South Korea_
_Switzerland_
_A trade agreement with the Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACU+M) trade bloc has been agreed in principle. We expect to sign the agreement with SACU+Mshortly._

@Magyarmum posted the link above originally earlier this evening. Trade deals are being signed by the United Kingdom for the day it leaves the European Union and some are still in discussion. So it is untrue the United Kingdom will have no trade deals through no deal on the withdrawal agreement with the European Union.

I have a feeling this is just going to fall on deaf ears or not be read properly by you. So I will leave this conversation with you here.


----------



## Elles

Yet some of the most pleasant places to live are the smaller countries and the larger are some of the worst.


----------



## Guest

rona said:


> According to Yougov, Boris is gaining in popularity
> https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...te-difficulties-parliament-boris-has-grown-po


I think the United Kingdom opposition parties are scared of a General Election because if the Conservatives win it would give Boris a mandate for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. Yet up until a few weeks ago the United Kingdom Labour leader didn't stop asking for a General Election now he seems hesitant.


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> I think the United Kingdom opposition parties are scared of a General Election because if the Conservatives win it would give Boris a mandate for the United Kingdom to leave the European Union. Yet up until a few weeks ago the United Kingdom Labour leader didn't stop asking for a General Election now he seems hesitant.


Unfortunately the opposition has a leader who doesn't have any clear alternative and it is impossible to win without a positive choices. 
No Deal is disastrous but it is an idea and the biggest failure of opposition is that different fractions were too busy to put each other down and their leader failed totally to unite them.
Sitting on the fence does not win elections.

Totally missed opportunity.


----------



## cheekyscrip

Trade deals with the economic powers like Faroe Islands, Palestinian Authority or Mozambique will be a replacement?


You are serious?


Pacific and South America are all nice places but ever thought about costs of transport?

Plus what are we going to sell?
Lamb, beef????

How much business can be done with very small or very poor country far, far away?


----------



## Elles

The Eu pay our farmers not to grow food, maybe we’ll produce more of our own once we’re out.

Tbh as I said years ago now I don’t really think the economy will be a problem, I’m more concerned about our rights. Cheeky should be able to take her pets to the vet in Spain, nurses shouldn’t be worrying about where to live and a pensioner retired to France shouldn’t need to concern themselves. 

They can sort out their trade deals with or without the Eu, but ordinary people’s right to live in peace, work, spend time with their families and go on holiday, shouldn’t be down to the the Eu and whether we’re members of a millionaire’s club or not. Our countries should come together for the good of their people, not for power, glory and money and we shouldn’t need to pay the Eu to do it. The Eu should have stuck to trading and standards and not become a huge political force, with ambitions for armies and Empires.


----------



## KittenKong




----------



## Lurcherlad

We’re staying on a farm at the moment. 

The farmer gave up sheep farming as he couldn’t earn a living because of cheap imported meat, quotas, etc.

Also acres of fruits that “lost” their markets. Try finding British apples all year round in our shops for example. You won’t, but there will be French and Italian, yet we could store and distribute our own all year.

He now grows haylage for horses and grows apples for cider (very nice btw. ).

Maybe he will have a UK market again for more produce?

His farm survives atm as he’s diversified into commercial units in his barns and holiday lets with on site cafe open to public, etc.

He’d like to be farming properly again - I hope he and other UK farmers get their home market back soon.

Under our own rules/standards.

Everyone’s always talking about air/land miles after all.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Tbh as I said years ago now I don't really think the economy will be a problem, I'm more concerned about our rights


I'm not even in the workforce any more but I'm worried for those who are. I have knowledge of how one particular US company's bosses reacted to the Brexit vote. They honestly thought they would be able to remove holiday entitlements, sick pay and other worker protections pretty quickly. A right wing government here isn't exactly going to spill any tears about removing employment rights - they're the very individuals who stand to profit.


----------



## rona

havoc said:


> They honestly thought they would be able to remove holiday entitlements, sick pay and other worker protections pretty quickly. A right wing government here isn't exactly going to spill any tears about removing employment rights - they're the very individuals who stand to profit.


You could not get more of a brexiter then me but even I can see that Boris's cronies will not be good for this country. Good job we can get rid unlike the EU cronies who we are stuck with


----------



## Jesthar

rona said:


> You could not get more of a brexiter then me but even I can see that Boris's cronies will not be good for this country. Good job we can get rid unlike the EU cronies who we are stuck with


Speaking with my Union Rep hat on for a moment, EU legislation has been rather instrumental in improving workers rights in recent years. The US companies are far from being the only ones who are salivating at the prospect of eliminating worker protections in the name of profit. And, once removed, getting such protections back would not be easy - it's helpful to remember how hard it was to get some of them in the first place...


----------



## Elles

I think any of our governments will find it hard to remove needed worker’s rights and equalities that we fought for. We shouldn’t be relying on the Eu and tbh we don’t. They can salivate all they want.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I really worry about BJ taking us out with a deal, he isn't even trying to get one although he says he is, he is lying again like he has since the start, the only thing he is doing ripping the heart and soul out of the country.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> *I think any of our governments will find it hard to remove needed worker's rights and equalities that we fought for*. We shouldn't be relying on the Eu and tbh we don't. They can salivate all they want.


You'd be surprised. They won't talk about it in open terms, of course, but what do you think certain MPs have been referring to when they talk about the need to give the UK a competitive advantage post-Brexit by deregulating the labour market? And whilst MPs have been promised a vote on any changes to workers rights already enshrined in UK law (not all are), I refer the honourable forumite to the recent trend for openly ignoring or bypassing Parliamentary votes, let alone mere promises, and that's before leaving has even happened.

I'm not trying to be project fear here, just realistic. We'll need trade deals pretty urgently after Brexit (yes, I know we already have some, but nothing with any of the big players), and if, for example, the soulless juggernaut that is the US demands the removal or watering down of workers protections as an essential condition of a trade deal, we'll not really be in a great position to refuse.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I think any of our governments will find it hard to remove needed worker's rights and equalities that we fought for. We shouldn't be relying on the Eu and tbh we don't. They can salivate all they want.


I hope you're right. Used to be an employee had to have one year with an employer to be protected from unfair dismissal and it then went up to two under a tory government. Just about every other protection is EU based and can be watered down or removed once we're out. Holiday pay is a prime target for US companies and they have Trump's ear which means they'll have the ear of a UK government.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> I hope you're right. Used to be an employee had to have one year with an employer to be protected from unfair dismissal and it then went up to two under a tory government. Just about every other protection is EU based and can be watered down or removed once we're out. * Holiday pay is a prime target for US companies and they have Trump's ear which means they'll have the ear of a UK government*.


Assuming of course that Trump is re-elected in 2020:Finger


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> Assuming of course that Trump is re-elected in 2020


Doesn't have to be him though he is admittedly the devil we know.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> Holiday pay is a prime target for US companies and they have Trump's ear which means they'll have the ear of a UK government.


Indeed - there is no legal requirement for US companies to offer even public holidays as paid leave, nor any minumum on the days of holiday leave. So paid leave is wholly at the discretion of the employer, and some offer no paid leave at all. The average is about 8 days, I think, but that's probably boosted by government employees (who seem to get a much better deal than regular workers). They're one of only about half a dozen countries in the world to have no paid leave requirements at all, and the only decent sized prosperous country on that very short list.

They also have no requrement for paid sick leave, and some companies will even make you pay back lost hours or fire you for going off sick (and I don't mean regularly) or for having to have a day off to look after a sick child. So you get the situation where US workers routinely go to work with contagious conditions we'd be ordered to stay at home for, such as vomiting and diarrhea, because they can't afford to lose the money or are scared of being fired - even in the food service industry. Yum!


----------



## Elles

What we really need is low unemployment, so that workers can pick and choose.

If you think brexiters will be furious and riot if they don’t get brexit, imagine the countrywide rage if people lose sick days and holiday pay!

We have a small company and treat anyone who works for us better than we treat ourselves and we’d join any demos against treating British workers how America does.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> If you think brexiters will be furious and riot if they don't get brexit, imagine the countrywide rage if people lose sick days and holiday pay!


Really? Most don't even know what they're entitled to by law and if it's the choice between halving paid holiday or being unemployed I don't believe people will do anything.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Really? Most don't even know what they're entitled to by law and if it's the choice between halving paid holiday or being unemployed I don't believe people will do anything.


Let's hope we never find out.


----------



## havoc

That would literally be the triumph of hope over expectation.


----------



## Elles

So why don’t they know?

Apparently we’re told kids today know their rights on everything else, why don’t they know their rights when they get a job?


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> So why don't they know?
> 
> Apparently we're told kids today know their rights on everything else, why don't they know their rights when they get a job?


I have no idea why they don't know. If anything they think they have more than they do. It comes as quite a shock to some to realise they can be fired for no reason until and unless they've worked for an employer for two years.

eta: It's common practice in some large organisations to hire young employees for (up to) 23 months and get rid of them just before they hit an age where minimum wage would increase.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> I have no idea why they don't know. If anything they think they have more than they do. It comes as quite a shock to some to realise they can be fired for no reason until and unless they've worked for an employer for two years.
> 
> eta: It's common practice in some large organisations to hire young employees for (up to) 23 months and get rid of them just before they hit an age where minimum wage would increase.


Same back when I left school. Followed by work experience type of stuff where they got them for free for 2 years.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Same back when I left school. Followed by work experience type of stuff where they got them for free for 2 years.


Yup, no change for decades in that regard then. Hardly something for us to be proud of.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> Yup, no change for decades in that regard then. Hardly something for us to be proud of.


Or the Eu?


----------



## kimthecat

Back in the day , late sixties when you could leave school at 15 , there were always jobs and apprenticeships available, lots of factory work , hairdressing , shop work , working in garages. Now everything is automated , DIY tills in shops. No need for meter readers or ticket sellers at the station .


----------



## cheekyscrip

Lurcherlad said:


> We're staying on a farm at the moment.
> 
> The farmer gave up sheep farming as he couldn't earn a living because of cheap imported meat, quotas, etc.
> 
> Also acres of fruits that "lost" their markets. Try finding British apples all year round in our shops for example. You won't, but there will be French and Italian, yet we could store and distribute our own all year.
> 
> He now grows haylage for horses and grows apples for cider (very nice btw. ).
> 
> Maybe he will have a UK market again for more produce?
> 
> His farm survives atm as he's diversified into commercial units in his barns and holiday lets with on site cafe open to public, etc.
> 
> He'd like to be farming properly again - I hope he and other UK farmers get their home market back soon.
> 
> Under our own rules/standards.
> 
> Everyone's always talking about air/land miles after all.


Or deluge of chlorine flavoured cheap chicken?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Today BoJo learnt what Single Market and Irish backstop means.


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 416969
> Today BoJo learnt what Single Market and Irish backstop means.


What a load of rubbish. :Hilarious

On the one hand Boris is supposedly playing a clever game to hand us over to Russia and America, on the other hand he's incredibly thick. Which one is it?


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Or deluge of chlorine flavoured cheap chicken?


Don't eat it? Anyway, how is going to get here with planes grounded and ports closed? They can't fly before they're dead, let alone after. :Bag

Our Sainsbury's sold out of vegan options today. Their 'free from' shelves were totally empty. The The staff said that they can't believe how popular the vegan and vegetarian meals are becoming and were totally unprepared for it. I made myself a tomato soup with broccoli and bread rolls.


----------



## Guest

Elles said:


> Our Sainsbury's sold out of vegan options today. Their 'free from' shelves were totally empty. The The staff said that they can't believe how popular the vegan and vegetarian meals are becoming and were totally unprepared for it. I made myself a tomato soup with broccoli and bread rolls.


The Vegan and vegetarian ready made meal options in the supermarket are very popular over here to in Amsterdam as well.


----------



## Guest

Mr Macron and Mr Rinne had a meeting in Paris tonight and have given Boris an ultimatium. Show the European Union a deal before the end of September (12 days time) or face up to no deal happening. Although Mr Macron and Mr Rinne do not speak for the whole of the European Union but Mr Macron does take the hardest stance towards the United Kimgdom.

Michel Barnier has told Mr Johnson to stop “pretending” to negotiate.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> Mr Macron and Mr Rinne had a meeting in Paris tonight and have given Boris an ultimatium. Show the European Union a deal before the end of September (12 days time) or face up to no deal happening. Although Mr Macron and Mr Rinne do not speak for the whole of the European Union but Mr Macron does take the hardest stance towards the United Kimgdom.
> 
> Michel Barnier has told Mr Johnson to stop "pretending" to negotiate.


Do you think the Eu are seeing that even if they organise the best deal possible, one even better than being in the Eu where the Eu pay us to be members instead of he other way around, Remainers in parliament will vote it down and it'll never get through? So this whole negotiating business is pointless.

Boris knows it and he's probably told them. There are enough politicians going public with their intention to scupper any deal now. Corbyn has now said he'll remain neutral and not support a deal, or remain, which is the only choice we'll get if he holds a second referendum. His new improved deal he's sure the Eu will give him despite that he won't back it himself. Or remain.

Has Barnier told Boris to stop pretending to negotiate, or the U.K. generally?


----------



## Elles

Ah looks like he knows what’s going on.

“Almost three years after the UK referendum, I don’t think we should be spending time pretending to negotiate.”


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...aides-civil-service-sajid-javid-a9109836.html


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Ah looks like he knows what's going on.
> 
> "Almost three years after the UK referendum, I don't think we should be spending time pretending to negotiate."


I don't think he ever intended to negotiate, all he has ever wanted is to leave "With Out Deal" whether we like it or not.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> I have no idea why they don't know. If anything they think they have more than they do. It comes as quite a shock to some to realise they can be fired for no reason until and unless they've worked for an employer for two years.
> 
> eta: It's common practice in some large organisations to hire young employees for (up to) 23 months and get rid of them just before they hit an age where minimum wage would increase.


And conversely what about the apprenticeship schemes where you're paid to work whilst studying part time?

I know of several young people who, as soon as they've finished their 2/3 years paid training, hand in their notice, and push off to parts foreign before going on to Australia and using the skills they learnt in the UK to work their way round there.


----------



## Magyarmum

cheekyscrip said:


> Or deluge of chlorine flavoured cheap chicken?


Seeing that the EU, if they're not doing so already, will soon be inundated with US beef stuffed full of antibiotics, what's a bit of chlorinated chicken now and then?


----------



## rona

Can anyone find Clause 12 of Article 50. I don't seem to be able to find it anywhere? 

Apparently it's very relevant!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Seeing that the EU, if they're not doing so already, will soon be inundated with US beef stuffed full of antibiotics, *what's a bit of chlorinated chicken now and then?*


I always have my chicken from Donald Russell who gets them France they are free range left to roam free in woodland. I just hope if we leave without a deal they can still get them. I will not eat supermarket rubbish.


----------



## Lurcherlad

cheekyscrip said:


> Or deluge of chlorine flavoured cheap chicken?


Obviously not a viable alternative in my eyes 

It's up to the British public to lobby their MP's about things that are important to them. I do.


----------



## rona

Lurcherlad said:


> Obviously not a viable alternative in my eyes
> 
> It's up to the British public to lobby their MP's about things that are important to them. I do.


Or buy British


----------



## Lurcherlad

rona said:


> Or buy British


I do! 

I don't eat meat etc. myself but only but British meat, eggs and dairy for my OH and DS.

Same with veg and fruit, where available - sadly, not always 

If more people stuck to British produce it would make foreign imports difficult to justify.

I'd rather pay more or go without tbh.


----------



## Guest

I would have thought with the United Kingdom leaving the European Union people would support British farmers by buying British produce that way chlorinated chicken would not be popular (if the United Kingdom gets a trade deal with the United States) and with it not being popular shops would not sell it?

Just a thought.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Or deluge of chlorine flavoured cheap chicken?


Not if you shop in Tesco apparently

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...it-says-tesco-boss/ar-AAHuf9o?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> Assuming of course that Trump is re-elected in 2020:Finger


I wouldn't rule anything out, tbh, the first time was pretty unexpected (rather like Leave winning the referendum).


----------



## Magyarmum

Calvine said:


> I wouldn't rule anything out, tbh, the first time was pretty unexpected (rather like Leave winning the referendum).


Perhaps I should have added "or impeached" which seems to be on the cards from what I've seen and read. :Meh:Meh


----------



## cheekyscrip

saartje said:


> I would have thought with the United Kingdom leaving the European Union people would support British farmers by buying British produce that way chlorinated chicken would not be popular (if the United Kingdom gets a trade deal with the United States) and with it not being popular shops would not sell it?
> 
> Just a thought.


People will buy what they can afford.

ERG might have a choice, but with inevitable in case of No Deal recession people will have to eat cheaper foods.

People are happy to wave the flag, but if the difference in price is substantial...


----------



## Elles

I’m sorry, but the fearmongering cant have it both ways. Either we won’t be able to import food, there will be shortages and people will go hungry. There will delays and snarl ups at ports and airports. Our own farmers will profit, but not be able to provide enough for everyone.

Or we’ll be able to easily import food. We’ll import cheap food from America, cheap food will be plentiful and people will buy it regardless of the standards.

Which one is it?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> I'm sorry, but the fearmongering cant have it both ways. Either we won't be able to import food, there will be shortages and people will go hungry. There will delays and snarl ups at ports and airports. Our own farmers will profit, but not be able to provide enough for everyone.
> 
> Or we'll be able to easily import food. We'll import cheap food from America, cheap food will be plentiful and people will buy it regardless of the standards.
> 
> Which one is it?


Soon enough we will see...

British grown oranges and grapes anyone?


----------



## cheekyscrip

Hopefully we will still have our British turnips.


----------



## MilleD

cheekyscrip said:


> Soon enough we will see...
> 
> British grown oranges and grapes anyone?


Maybe not transporting these things half way around the world is just what the climate needs....

I'll still be able to get wine right??


----------



## Elles

cheekyscrip said:


> Soon enough we will see...
> 
> British grown oranges and grapes anyone?


If we can import chlorinated chicken from America I'm sure oranges and grapes will be no problem.



MilleD said:


> Maybe not transporting these things half way around the world is just what the climate needs....
> 
> I'll still be able to get wine right??


The shops are already full of wine from Chile, South Africa and Australia, so if the French and Italians won't sell us theirs, their loss. There's also British wine and if all else fails, British Cider. If we can import chlorinated chicken from America I'm sure wine will be no problem. 

Do you think once we're out of the Eu, a duty free booze cruise will be a thing again?


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> If we can import chlorinated chicken from America I'm sure oranges and grapes will be no problem.
> 
> The shops are already full of wine from Chile, South Africa and Australia, so if the French and Italians won't sell us theirs, their loss. There's also British wine and if all else fails, British Cider. If we can import chlorinated chicken from America I'm sure wine will be no problem.
> 
> Do you think once we're out of the Eu, a duty free booze cruise will be a thing again?


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...el-alcohol-cigarettes-discounts-a9098966.html

*UK will sweeten travel to and from EU with duty-free alcohol and tobacco after no-deal Brexit*


----------



## MilleD

Elles said:


> The shops are already full of wine from Chile, South Africa and Australia, so if the French and Italians won't sell us theirs, their loss. There's also British wine and if all else fails, British Cider. If we can import chlorinated chicken from America I'm sure wine will be no problem.
> 
> Do you think once we're out of the Eu, a duty free booze cruise will be a thing again?


Um. I'm not sure about british wine :Yuck

But I do remember trips to the Carrefour.....


----------



## MilleD

Magyarmum said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...el-alcohol-cigarettes-discounts-a9098966.html
> 
> *UK will sweeten travel to and from EU with duty-free alcohol and tobacco after no-deal Brexit*


That'll help the NHS save money


----------



## Magyarmum

You don't have to worry about the grapes or probably the oranges either!

https://www.sapeople.com/2019/09/18...ith-uk-will-go-on-after-brexit-says-minister/

*South Africa's R7 Billion Preferential Trade With UK Will Go On After Brexit, Says Minister*


----------



## Guest

cheekyscrip said:


> People will buy what they can afford.
> 
> ERG might have a choice, but with inevitable in case of No Deal recession people will have to eat cheaper foods.
> 
> People are happy to wave the flag, but if the difference in price is substantial...


I am sure British chicken, pork or beef isn't that expensive. Perhaps try Aldi or Lidl they are staying open in the UK and are opening more stores.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> You don't have to worry about the grapes or probably the oranges either!
> 
> https://www.sapeople.com/2019/09/18...ith-uk-will-go-on-after-brexit-says-minister/
> 
> *South Africa's R7 Billion Preferential Trade With UK Will Go On After Brexit, Says Minister*


Some on here think the United Kingdom have no trade deals lined up after it leaves the European Union when that is untrue.

It's like they kept saying freedom of movement will end when it won't. They have the same agreement as now. 90 days travel to any European country in any 180 days for holidays. No visas needed. The only difference being is they have to get a visa to work in the schegen area after Brexit and in the United Kingdom.

They also think all boats, planes and Eurostar services will end but they won't.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> Some on here think the United Kingdom have no trade deals lined up after it leaves the European Union when that is untrue.
> 
> It's like they kept saying freedom of movement will end when it won't. They have the same agreement as now. 90 days travel to any European country in any 180 days for holidays. No visas needed. The only difference being is they have to get a visa to work in the schegen area after Brexit and in the United Kingdom.
> 
> They also think all boats, planes and Eurostar services will end but they won't.


Who has said ALL boats, planes and Eurostar services will end?


----------



## rona

MilleD said:


> Maybe not transporting these things half way around the world is just what the climate needs....
> 
> I'll still be able to get wine right??





MilleD said:


> Um. I'm not sure about british wine :Yuck
> .


There's loads of British Vineyards now and some of the wine is supposed to be of excellent quality. You should go to a local Agricultural show and try some


----------



## Guest

3dogs2cats said:


> Who has said ALL boats, planes and Eurostar services will end?


Post 419 here: https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...-talk-about-it.497876/page-21#post-1065272401 talks about no planes and aviation rules and no flights after the United Kingdom leaves the European Union.

Post 2743: https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads...talk-about-it.497876/page-138#post-1065303780 Talks about planes not being able to fly and ferries and Eurostar being affected when the truth is none of this is going to be happening.

There are many more posts on planes not flying and ferries and eurostar not operating or being affected etc but I am not going to spend the rest of the day copy and pasting links to them.

The EU have permitted in the event of no deal for planes, ferries and the Eurostar to continue as normal with agreements made with the United Kingdom.


----------



## Happy Paws2

At the moment while we can afford to pay for good quality and the things we like I will, I like french butter and as I said we have French free range chicken and there are a few other things I buy which are from France as I like the flavor better. If I have to buy British I will, but at the moment I buy things I like.


----------



## Lurcherlad

cheekyscrip said:


> Soon enough we will see...
> 
> British grown oranges and grapes anyone?


Think I'll survive without either tbh.

We did when we were younger.

We ate seasonally.

(I don't buy anything French btw )


----------



## Jesthar

Lurcherlad said:


> Think I'll survive without either tbh.
> 
> We did when we were younger.
> 
> We ate seasonally.
> 
> (I don't buy anything French btw )


There is the slight logistical issue of not being able to physically grow enough internally to feed the population, though - even utilising all available land and assuming maximum yield from all harvests every year.  That's been the case for many, many decades now.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Jesthar said:


> There is the slight logistical issue of not being able to physically grow enough internally to feed the population, though - even utilising all available land and assuming maximum yield from all harvests every year.  That's been the case for many, many decades now.


Nobody said that though.


----------



## Jesthar

Lurcherlad said:


> Nobody said that though.


Yeah, I know, sorry! I've just been finding amusing lately how many people (not on here) don't realise that!


----------



## Guest

I read up on the Supreme Court case hearing today in London and the Judges had to keep asking those giving evidence to stick to what the court case is about as they wanted the Judges to rule on Brexit as well. The Judges are now deciding on the outcome of the court case about Boris Johnsons decision to suspend Parliament.

Looks like the court has finished for the day and will decide next week what on the verdict.


----------



## KittenKong

Scottish courts declare Johnson's activity illegal which is being challenged by the supreme court who, I'm sure will overthrow the decision.

Should that arise it'll only fuel support for Scottish independence.

Now, we are seeing this sort of thing from the far right.

What would SWC have said to this?


----------



## Happy Paws2

To be honest I don't trust the supreme court to be impartial, they will come down on the governments side every time.


----------



## havoc

Happy Paws2 said:


> To be honest I don't trust the supreme court to be impartial, they will come down on the governments side every time.


If they do it won't be for lack of robust questioning of the government counsel.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> To be honest I don't trust the supreme court to be impartial, they will come down on the governments side every time.


Funnily enough the brexiters don't trust them to be impartial either and think they'll come down on their own side every time. As they think, being the elite, most of them will have voted remain, it means they'll try their best to justify supporting the remainers.


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Funnily enough the brexiters don't trust them to be impartial either and think they'll come down on their own side every time. *As they think, being the elite, most of them will have voted remain, it means they'll try their best to justify supporting the remainers*.


What makes you think that???


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> What makes you think that???


What the brexiters are saying on he net. They know the establishment on the whole want to stay in and the judiciary is part of the establishment.

So you as a remainer think they'll be biased in favour of Boris, the brexiters think they'll be biased in favour of the Remainers in Parliament.


----------



## kimthecat

Its 11 judges , Im sure we can trust them , its not about Brexit .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Its 11 judges , Im sure we can trust them , its not about Brexit .


are you sure about that, because I'm not!


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm you sure about that, because I'm not!


No , not sure . As my sig says , I used to be uncertain , now I'm not so sure. 

The whole thing is just crazy


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm you sure about that, because I'm not!


But you want them to be in favour of remain and find that Boris acted illegally. If they don't you'll accuse them of bias. If they find that he did, brexiters will accuse them of bias.

Courts know that if they say Boris acted illegally, Remainers also acted illegally, as have PMs going back years, including John Major himself. Remainers had no right to extend article 50 in an attempt to block brexit, which they are now admitting to. Boris was perfectly within his rights to prorogue parliament and if they wanted to prevent it, they needed to agree to a GE as offered to them since Boris was elected. They knew weeks before he did it that he was going to. If Boris is using politics, they are even more so.

If they wanted to prevent all of this, all they had to do was go for a GE and let the people decide. The EU had already agreed to extend beyond October for a GE. They didn't, because they don't think they can win one. They're playing more games with us than Boris ever is.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> But you want them to be in favour of remain and find that Boris acted illegally. If they don't you'll accuse them of bias. If they find that he did, brexiters will accuse them of bias.
> 
> .


This is nothing to do with leave or remain, it's about closing Parliament for 5 weeks.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> This is nothing to do with leave or remain, it's about closing Parliament for 5 weeks.


Parliament was already shut for the conference season before he prorogued it for a further 4? days for a queen's speech, no one said they were going to cancel their conferences. It's normal apparently, though no one has mentioned it before.

Of course it's to do with leave or remain. If Remainers weren't doing everything they can to halt brexit and thought they'd have a chance at a GE, this wouldn't even be an issue, let alone a court case.

You want to stay in the Eu enough to support them. Do you think they should revoke article 50 and cancel brexit and would you vote for a party who had that in their manifesto?


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Parliament was already shut for the conference season before he prorogued it for a further 4? days for a queen's speech, no one said they were going to cancel their conferences. It's normal apparently, though no one has mentioned it before.
> 
> Of course it's to do with leave or remain. If Remainers weren't doing everything they can to halt brexit and thought they'd have a chance at a GE, this wouldn't even be an issue, let alone a court case.
> 
> You want to stay in the Eu enough to support them. Do you think they should revoke article 50 and cancel brexit and would you vote for a party who had that in their manifesto?


1. All the others parties said they would cancel their conference this year so they could carry on debating Brexit
2. I've always said, I would support the result of the referendum, I don't have to agree with it. 
3. Yes if we could vote again, I'd still vote to remain.
4. I don't really think we should leave without deal and if BJ does he is breaking the law.


----------



## Elles

That’s not what I asked. The parties didn’t cancel their conferences. They said they would have when it was too late. They knew Boris wanted a GE or prorogation weeks ago and they did nothing.

I asked if you would vote for a party who would revoke article 50 and cancel brexit. I didn’t ask how you’d vote on a second referendum. 

Boris is possibly breaking a new law that the mostly Eu favouring parliament have just set up. He said we’d leave with no deal and article 50 said we’d leave with no deal. They knew May’s government wouldn’t, regardless of what she said in public, so until Boris said he’d do what they and people had voted for (they agreed to art 50 including its no deal option) they were quite happy to continue trying to block brexit by voting down her deal and asking for extensions.

If they want to prevent our leaving with no deal and the proroguing of Parliament and get a guaranteed extension from the Eu, they should have agreed to a general election. They have been asking for one, but when it’s offered on a plate more than once, they turn it down. If they thought the public were keen to avoid a no deal brexit, or stay in the Eu, they should have accepted the GE, so that we can vote Boris out and support their efforts.

They’re playing politics and courts shouldn’t be involved in it. 

Now is the time for a general election, so we can have a say on Boris and his aspirations. The Eu have already agreed to an extension while we do it.

We should also have left the Eu, seen what leaving actually did, instead of guessing and be campaigning to rejoin it, not blocking the result of the biggest vote in U.K. history.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I did say anything about a referendum, I just said I'd vote to remain I don't care how, I'd vote in Scotland if i could.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> I did say anything about a referendum, I just said I'd vote to remain I don't care how, I'd vote in Scotland if i could.


Ok, so you would vote for a party that would ignore your vote if they didn't like the result.

I can agree with people voting to remain in a second referendum, of course they will.

I cannot agree with politicians ignoring what the majority vote for, in a vote they agreed we should have. For me that goes against everything our vote and democracy stands for. It doesn't matter to me whether I like the result or not.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Ok, so you would vote for a party that would ignore your vote if they didn't like the result.
> 
> I can agree with people voting to remain in a second referendum, of course they will.
> 
> I cannot agree with politicians ignoring what the majority vote for, in a vote they agreed we should have. For me that goes against everything our vote and democracy stands for. It doesn't matter to me whether I like the result or not.


Democracy that's a joke, BJ has know idea what it means, he has just proved that!


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> They're playing politics and courts shouldn't be involved in it.


The argument in this particular case in the Supreme Court is that Boris didn't go through the necessary legal steps to prorogue Parliament, not whether he could or should prorogue at all. Counsel have argued that he should be above the law so correct process doesn't matter. The court is not ruling on anything to do with the political matter but on a legal one.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> I've always said, I would support the result of the referendum, I don't have to agree with it.


Glad to see someone with a reasonable attitude.


----------



## Elles

Calvine said:


> Glad to see someone with a reasonable attitude.


If someone votes for a party that will overturn the result, they aren't supporting it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> If someone votes for a party that will overturn the result, they aren't supporting it.


I will support it as it stands* now*, but if we have a GE I'll vote LibDem on the chance we will remain.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> Democracy that's a joke, BJ has know idea what it means, he has just proved that!


Hmm. Not really. We voted to leave the Eu, he wants to take us out of the Eu. We can always dump him afterwards.

The Lib Dems want to keep us in, even if we have a second referendum and people vote to leave again. Leading Lib Dems are hurling insults at the electorate, something the old guys wouldn't have done. It's not just appalling behaviour, it's stupid imo.

I'm sure some will vote for the illiberal nondemocratic Liberal Democrats :Bag but I doubt they'll get a majority if they carry on with it. If Labour get a decent leader and drop Jeremy Corbyn's crowd, they'll have more chance.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> I'm sure some will vote for the illiberal nondemocratic Liberal Democrats


The other options aren't exactly attractive to many
Vote Tory or one of the other hard right parties if you want a hard Brexit AND everything else a Tory govt. brings with it.
Vote Labour if you want the expense of another referendum AND everything else Corbyn's trotskyites bring with that.
Vote Lib Dem if you don't want either of the above AND you are happy to stay in the EU. If by some miracle they did get in at least they've made their position clear so on Brexit a majority for them is a democratic vote for remain. It's just another referendum without the extra expense.


----------



## kimthecat

I understand the judgement is due tomorrow at 10.30 am :Nailbiting

At the Labour conference , Emily Blackwell gave a speech and said Comrades. That really makes me want to vote for them.


----------



## Elles

https://www.economicvoice.com/robin-tilbrook-case-thrown-out-by-judge/

No mention here of the Robin Tillbrook case?

"Given that this is a case that very many lawyers, both distinguished and retired members of the judiciary, QCs, barristers and solicitors think has strong legal credibility, this decision can only be based upon the Judge's politics."

And Tilbrook goes on to write that the judicial appointment system is now politically biased to make sure that only those with the 'correct' views are able to sit as judges.

He also says that Judge Hickinbottom is a Fellow of the European Law Institute (ELI), an organisation that has at its core the objective:

"To evaluate and stimulate the development of EU law, legal policy, and practice, and in particular make proposals for the further development of the acquis and for the enhancement of EU law implementation by the Member States."

Ok, so we are talking about the view of an extremist brexiter and I don't know if what he says is true, but how did the court case get little to no coverage and if what he says is true, how can it be right?


----------



## Guest

kimthecat said:


> I understand the judgement is due tomorrow at 10.30 am :Nailbiting


Just curious (open to anyone to share their opinion).

What would you like the verdict to be?

1. Judges don't intefere with politics and dismiss the case. The United Kingdom stands a chance of leaving on the 31st October 2019.
2. Judges rule that the United Kingdom Parliament is recalled - more delays and more uncertainty and more economic damage with a chance Boris will suspend Parliament again.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> Just curious (open to anyone to share their opinion).
> 
> What would you like the verdict to be?
> 
> 1. Judges don't intefere with politics and dismiss the case. The United Kingdom stands a chance of leaving on the 31st October 2019.
> 2. Judges rule that the United Kingdom Parliament is recalled - more delays and more uncertainty and more economic damage with a chance Boris will suspend Parliament again.


I honestly don't know .


----------



## Elles

The verdict should be whatever is the law and totally impartial. 

I am expecting it to be that in this case no one has broken any laws and the law shouldn’t interfere, but I’m not a lawyer. If it’s not, I hope they explain in fine detail why not. It may be political shenanigans and clever timing, but political shenanigans and clever timing have never been illegal, even if anyone could prove that’s what it was and what Boris was thinking when he did it. So far as I know no one has mutated into a mind reader yet, despite what stage magicians want us to think. 

The court case has been brought to attack due process and prevent our leaving the Eu, so they’re doing what they accuse Boris of anyway, all the while pretending to be altruistic and democratic.


----------



## havoc

saartje said:


> Just curious (open to anyone to share their opinion).
> 
> What would you like the verdict to be?
> 
> 1. Judges don't intefere with politics and dismiss the case. The United Kingdom stands a chance of leaving on the 31st October 2019.
> 2. Judges rule that the United Kingdom Parliament is recalled - more delays and more uncertainty and more economic damage with a chance Boris will suspend Parliament again.


Judges rule that *this particular *prorogation was not carried out properly and therefore shouldn't stand. Do I think it will make a blind bit of difference to mess we're making of Brexit either way? No, I don't. Do I want politicians in the future to be able to stand above the law for their own ends? Funnily enough I really don't want that set as a precedent. I understand that people may want it to stand in this context but imagine if it were the Corbynista over something completely different.


----------



## Elles

I don’t really mind what it was for, or who did it. The legalities should be settled strictly according to the letter of the law.

However, I don’t think it makes any difference to brexit and I do think that if they’d actually cancelled their conferences to discuss brexit and then he’d done it, that would be very different. Saying after the event, awww but we were going to cancel and we’ve only had 3 years, we need more time *whine* when what they should do is agree to a general election, is a pretty poor show. He did it to stop any more interfering with his brexit and election plans and we all know it. As a new pm it would be pretty normal to prepare for a queen’s speech and set out his plans, but times aren’t normal.

They won’t agree to a general election, because they think they can’t win and if Boris gets his majority, he’ll have a mandate for his no deal brexit. We all know that too.

We know it, they know it, the judges know it. Any bias on their part, be it for or against brexit should play no part, but it’ll be quite difficult I think.

If they do find him guilty of something and put him in prison, don’t you think it will force an election? Maybe Gove will get to be PM after all. :Bag


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> If they do find him guilty of something and put him in prison, don't you think it will force an election? Maybe Gove will get to be PM after all. :Bag


I think that's unlikely. I know there are people baying for blood, I'm not one of them. Our political system has been shown not fit for purpose, it's broken. It's going to take a very long time for this country to recover from the division and collapse of confidence.

Do I have any idea which way the judges will fall? Absolutely not. Judges are unpredictable creatures and in general would favour the establishment but who would try and predict anything these days.


----------



## Happy Paws2

havoc said:


> *Judges are unpredictable creatures and in general would favour the establishment* but who would try and predict anything these days.


Unfortunately that's way I think they'll go.

I really would like to MPs back in Parliament as soon as possible, sorting this mess out.


----------



## Elles

Happy Paws2 said:


> Unfortunately that's way I think they'll go.
> 
> I really would like to MPs back in Parliament as soon as possible, sorting this mess out.


Why unfortunately? At least 2/3 of the establishment are in favour of remaining in the Eu and behind the court case. The Prime Minister isn't the establishment, especially as he has no majority. You think MPs will 'sort this mess out?


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> At least 2/3 of the establishment are in favour of remaining in the Eu and behind the court case.


How do you know that? The public front isn't what comprises 'the establishment'.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> How do you know that? The public front isn't what comprises 'the establishment'.


Not to mention we have absolutely no clue what the public itself want any more. And a General Election would be a ruddy stupid way of allegedly 'finding out', as a General Election is a vote on whose party politics you support overall, not a single issue. It doesn't make any logical sense at all to say whoever wins the election has a mandate for their flavour of Brexit, as not everyone is going to vote with Brexit as their priority issue.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Elles said:


> Why unfortunately? *At least 2/3 of the establishment are in favour of remaining in the Eu and behind the court case.* The Prime Minister isn't the establishment, especially as he has no majority. *You think MPs will 'sort this mess out?*


How do you know that?

Well someone has got to and the MPs are the only ones that can, unless we have another referendum, which is very unlikely to happen.


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> Not to mention we have absolutely no clue what the public itself want any more. And a General Election would be a ruddy stupid way of allegedly 'finding out', as a General Election is a vote on whose party politics you support overall, not a single issue. It doesn't make any logical sense at all to say whoever wins the election has a mandate for their flavour of Brexit, as not everyone is going to vote with Brexit as their priority issue.


I think the public just this want this mess o be over and make it go away. 
Agree with labour for a change about the party being neutral.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I think the public just this want this mess o be over and make it go away.
> Agree with labour for a change about the party being neutral.


Probably also true, which is another reason why a GE is a dumb way to measure public opinon on Brexit.

And as a side note, whilst I fully sympthise with being bored with Brexit (I am, too), i think it's going to come as a shock to many that the the Brexit mess isn't going to be 'over' simply by leaving, but rather that leaving heralds the start of a much bigger 'mess' (assuming Our Glorious Leaders continue to act as they have done for the last three years)


----------



## kimthecat

Jesthar said:


> And as a side note, whilst I fully sympthise with being bored with Brexit (I am, too), i think it's going to come as a shock to many that the the Brexit mess isn't going to be 'over' simply by leaving, but rather that leaving heralds the start of a much bigger 'mess' (assuming Our Glorious Leaders continue to act as they have done for the last three years)


Its much more than just being bored , , all the arguments , nobody knows whats going on . etc its distressing

ETA no it wont be over but it will be a start from being bogged down in the mire.


----------



## Guest

Supreme Court: Prorogation Unlawful


----------



## Guest

The decision to advise the Queen was unlawful.


----------



## Magyarmum

The Supreme Court have ruled decision to prorogue Parliament was unlawful


----------



## Guest

This was a unnamous decision from all 11 judges.


----------



## Guest

Parliament is not prorogued and the Queen's speech cancelled in October.

Parliament must be recalled.


----------



## havoc

I’m relieved. Not for the current mess particularly but for the long term.


----------



## Jesthar

Wow, didn't expect that!


----------



## Guest

Boris now faces allegations he mislead the Queen.


----------



## kimthecat

Blimey !


----------



## Guest

The Prorogation has been null and voided.


----------



## Jesthar

havoc said:


> I'm relieved. Not for the current mess particularly but for the long term.


Yes, exactly. At least it sends the message that even the Prime Minister isn't above the rule of law. (yet...)

Not that many hardcore Brexiteers are going to appreciate that! Chances are they'll see it as an affront to the will of the people rather than a simple legal ruling. Might wander over to the Daily Fail comments section to watch the implosion - if I can find my popcorn


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Boris now faces allegations he mislead the Queen.


I wonder how he's going to handle the situation seeing he's in New York at the moment attending the UN summit


----------



## Happy Paws2

WOW..... I didn't expect that.

Now it's up to Speakers of each house to call MP's and the Lords back.


----------



## Guest

Opposition party leaders are demanding Boris Johnson resigns immediately.


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> I wonder how he's going to handle the situation seeing he's in New York at the moment attending the UN summit


Maybe giving a bit of time before responding wouldn't hurt. We're in this mess beause of the impulsive 'back of a *** packet' plans right from the start.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

havoc said:


> I'm relieved. Not for the current mess particularly but for the long term.


Likewise, not due to the Brexit mess but because the implication of allowing government to shut down parliament as it pleases.


----------



## Jesthar

saartje said:


> Opposition party leaders are demanding Boris Johnson resigns immediately.


If he did, he'd be the shortest serving PM ever by nearly two months! Not how he envisaged things working out, I suspect...


----------



## 3dogs2cats

I must admit I was rather distracted by Lady Hale`s rather fabulous brooch


----------



## Guest

John Bercow has responded. Parliament must convene without delay.


----------



## havoc

saartje said:


> Boris now faces allegations he mislead the Queen


To my mind he did.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Leading Lib Dems are hurling insults at the electorate,


 She (JS) must have been aware when she made that crass statement that some of the Leavers at whom the comment was directed _actually voted for her own party_. She can't be that thick, surely, that she thinks every Lib Dem voter opted for Remain. I am aware that Vince Cable is a staunch Remainer, but he isn't ignorant enough to badmouth those who are not. Moronic comments like she made cause more division in the country at a time when it can well do without it.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Maybe giving a bit of time before responding wouldn't hurt. We're in this mess beause of the impulsive 'back of a *** packet' plans right from the start.


Well considering it's only 6.15 am in New York, that shouldn't be too difficult!


----------



## Guest

I wonder how many more Conservative MP's will leave/defect from the Conservative Party?


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> Well considering it's only 6.15 am in New York, that shouldn't be too difficult


Guessing he's awake


----------



## kimthecat

John major prorogued parliament in 1997 . What is the difference between then and now .


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> John major prorogued parliament in 1997 . What is the difference between then and now .


He went about it in the right way. There is a procedure for doing so, documents which must be served.


----------



## Magyarmum

havoc said:


> Guessing he's awake


Sitting on the side of his bed, biting his fingernails and wondering what the hell he should do


----------



## Elles

Told you.


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> Sitting on the side of his bed, biting his fingernails and wondering *what the hell he should do*


Resign?


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> Resign?


Good point . Who'll be the next Tory leader ?

Cameron 
may 
Johnson

If theres a new PM , it will be the 4 th since 2016.

Larry the cat will be glad the puppy goes


----------



## Guest

Perhaps a General Election should be called and let the public decide who should be in power and what should happen next.


----------



## Guest

This shows the rule of law governs in the United Kingdom and not the rule of the temporary Prime Minister (I say temporary as all Prime Ministers only hold the position for a short period of time).


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Well considering it's only 6.15 am in New York, that shouldn't be too difficult!


It's going to make for an interesting breakfast tray delivery:

"Good morning, sir! Here's your Coco Pops and soft boiled egg with toast soldiers, with a side order of illegally prorogued Parliament and lying to Her Majesty the Queen. How would you like to pay?"


----------



## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> Resign?


I wasn't thinking that far ahead!

More what is he going to say to people like Rouhani, Trump, Macron, Tusk el al before he leaves for the UK!

He's probably wandering around the bedroom in his underpants muttering "s**t .... s**t, ...... s***t!


----------



## Guest

Boris should board the Prime Ministers RAF plane today and head back to the United Kingdom and face the United Kingdom Parliament tomorrow and face allegations lying to the Queen and explain if he is going to step down or not.


----------



## KittenKong

This was yesterday!
Fantastic result indeed.

I'm sure we can expect more, "Enemies of the people" headlines from our dear "News" papers tomorrow morning....


----------



## Guest

Magyarmum said:


> I wasn't thinking that far ahead!
> 
> More what is he going to say to people like Rouhani, Trump, Macron, Tusk el al before he leaves for the UK!
> 
> *He's probably wandering around the bedroom in his underpants muttering "s**t .... s**t, ...... s***t!*


You are putting awful images in my head.


----------



## Calvine

I bet Theresa May is sending text messages to all her mates (well, both her mates) with laughing emojis and signed ''Yours in hysterics, LMFAO, Theresa xx''.


----------



## kimthecat

saartje said:


> Perhaps a General Election should be called and let the public decide who should be in power and what should happen next.


I wonder what Brenda from Bristol will have to say about that!

From last time


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Johnson will respond when Cummings tells him what to say, of course as he in the USA he can also ask Trump to tell him what to do.


----------



## havoc

Magyarmum said:


> He's probably wandering around the bedroom in his underpants muttering "s**t .... s**t, ...... s***t!


Not the messiah then - just a very naughty boy.


----------



## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 417524
> 
> This was yesterday!
> Fantastic result indeed.
> 
> I'm sure we can expect more, "Enemies of the people" headlines from our dear "News" papers tomorrow morning....


I don't follow you.

Why should we expect "Enemies of the People" headlines in the papers?


----------



## Elles

They have said it was unlawful to prorogue parliament at a time of national importance and found a case from the 17th century to prove it. They have been careful with what they’re saying about Boris, but rather ruling on the effect of the prorogation, rather than the whys and wherefores. 

Whether Boris will hold on remains to be seen, though in reality the only way forward now is to work towards a General Election. 

Clearly it was a stupid thing to do and his advisors didn’t look deeply enough into it before he did it.

So nothing has changed and we’re still not leaving the Eu.


----------



## Calvine

Magyarmum said:


> More what is he going to say to people like Rouhani, Trump, Macron, Tusk el al before he leaves for the UK!


 I reckon he will say: ''Sorry guys, got to go, I really dropped a bollock this time''.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> He's probably wandering around the bedroom in his underpants muttering "s**t .... s**t, ...... s***t!


...probably in Latin


----------



## Elles

He could blame his pocket advisor and sack him instead.


----------



## Calvine

Elles said:


> Clearly it was a stupid thing to do and his advisors didn't look deeply enough into it before he did it.


That is what surprises me, actually; unless he is so arrogant that he takes no notice of them?


----------



## Guest

Will MP's take over the House of Commons timetable and put the Ben Act passed before Parliament was unlawfully prorogued and then push through and vote a vote of no confidence against the Government and put a care taker Government in power?


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> He could blame his pocket advisor and sack him instead.


If he does that he's admitting he blindly just does as he's told.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

So what happens if all opposition parties go back into the HoCs, some are already there together with some conservative backbenchers, the speaker says parliament is in session but the government to refuse to show up, would that mean an automatic no confidence vote? Can the sitting mps push through business - all the bills that fell when government was suspened- without the government?


----------



## Elles

"Importantly, the judges ruled on the _effect _of the prorogation rather than attempting to define the _motive, _which allowed it to deliver a devastating judgement without explicitly accusing Johnson of lying to the monarch.

Because the effect of the suspension was unlawful, the judges did not need to consider Johnson's motive."

From media outside the U.K.. our own media want Boris hung, drawn and quartered I think. :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum

3dogs2cats said:


> Johnson will respond when Cummings tells him what to say, of course as he in the USA he can also ask Trump to tell him what to do.


I wouldn't be surprised if Trump doesn't start to distance himself just as he is doing with his big buddy Netanyahu!

In any case Trump is in big s*** over putting pressure on the Ukraine trying to get them to investigate Joe Biden and his son!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> Will MP's take over the House of Commons timetable and put the Ben Act passed before Parliament was unlawfully prorogued and then push through and vote a vote of no confidence against the Government and put a care taker Government in power?


Sorry was typing same question when you posted!


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> If he does that he's admitting he blindly just does as he's told.


Not really, just saying he and his lawyers gave him bad advice.


----------



## Elles

Parliament will do whatever it takes to stop brexit. So if that means passing new laws, that’s what they’ll be focusing on imo.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Magyarmum said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Trump doesn't start to distance himself just as he is doing with his big buddy Netanyahu!
> 
> In any case Trump is in big s*** over putting pressure on the Ukraine trying to get them to investigate Joe Biden and his son!


He is isn't he, but then Trump seems to get away with anything!


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> From media outside the U.K.. our own media want Boris hung, drawn and quartered I think. :Hilarious


Wouldn't surprise me, he's not delivered what Murdoch et al want


----------



## Guest

The sensible way forward would surely be to put through an act to hold a second referendum? The public know what MP's want to do but Parliament doesn't know what the UK public want today?

MP's are meant to represent the public in their constituencies how can they if they don't know what their constituents want today. Put a referendum back to the UK public.

Yes there has been a referendum in 2016 which was based on lies. Now the public know the truth surely sense would say put it back to the people. If the UK public decide to vote to leave then so be it.


----------



## Magyarmum

Jesthar said:


> ...probably in Latin


Doesn't sound nearly as expressive in Latin.

I prefer s**t in French myself which at least that way most of the EU will understand what your saying!


----------



## havoc

saartje said:


> The sensible way forward


Don't think there is such a thing. Chaos was all but guaranteed when May invoked Article 50 way too quickly. We held all the cards on the timing and could have waited. From then on we've been chasing our tails and looking ridiculous.


----------



## Guest

havoc said:


> Don't think there is such a thing. Chaos was all but guaranteed when May invoked Article 50 way too quickly. We held all the cards on the timing and could have waited. From then on we've been chasing our tails and looking ridiculous.


In all fairness Parliament did vote with a majority to invoke article 50.


----------



## Elles

saartje said:


> The sensible way forward would surely be to put through an act to hold a second referendum? The public know what MP's want to do Parliament know what the UK public want today?


Why? It's an expensive and fruitless exercise. They had a referendum, we could have left the Eu the next day, but we didn't. Until they action the result of the first one, it's proof that referendums are pointless. The biggest vote in U.K. history and they haven't acted on it, because they didn't agree with the result. Despite the dark money, the media, the Russians, Donald Trump and anything else that's supposed to be the real power lol.

If the law is that we cannot leave without a deal and any deal needs to get through Parliament, we are not leaving the Eu. There are already MPs who have said they want to remain and will vote down any deal. There are also MPs who haven't said it, but who will do it. 2/3 (I think) of our current parliament campaigned to Remain in the Eu. There aren't enough brexiters to see it through.

Nothing so far has surprised me. I will be shocked if we actually do leave the Eu. If we don't leave on the 31st October and they've blocked no deal and any deal, it's almost definitely not happening. It would take an earthquake, or an uprising.


----------



## Magyarmum

John Bercow just announced Parliament will reopen tomorrow and sit at 11 am

Should be fun and betterviewing than the Game of Thrones


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> Parliament will do whatever it takes to stop brexit. So if that means passing new laws, that's what they'll be focusing on imo.


I think that's being a bit unfair, Elles. Parliament have every right to want to stop the current shambles labelled 'Brexit', as it's ill-defined, ill-prepared and ill-advised. Many would argue you could replace 'ill' with 'un' and that would still hold true.

Yes, I voted Remain. However, if Brexit had been handled in a sensible, grown up fashion, with proper plans and negotiations and - in particular - not triggering Article 50 until we had a clear idea of how we were going to proceed, I might well have been OK with that. And odd as it might sound, I'd welcome the chance to be OK with that.

What I'm _not_ OK with is the three years of pretty infighting, backstabbing and general refusal to actually get on with proper negotiations that has not only turned us into an international laughing stock, but left the country a divided, fractured mess that is probaly going to take generations to heal - IF it is allowed to...


----------



## Elles

Hasn’t John Bercow left yet? He’s not exactly been discreet since he thought he was retired.


----------



## kimthecat

Elles said:


> He could blame his pocket advisor and sack him instead.


He'll blame Siri


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> Doesn't sound nearly as expressive in Latin.
> 
> I prefer s**t in French myself which at least that way most of the EU will understand what your saying!


Merde! I think he'd say the F word


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Hasn't John Bercow left yet? He's not exactly been discreet since he thought he was retired


No because he was due to leave at the end the current session and the judgement means it didn't end.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> Hasn't John Bercow left yet? He's not exactly been discreet since he thought he was retired.


Not until 31 st October.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

saartje said:


> The sensible way forward would surely be to put through an act to hold a second referendum? The public know what MP's want to do but Parliament doesn't know what the UK public want today?
> 
> MP's are meant to represent the public in their constituencies how can they if they don't know what their constituents want today. Put a referendum back to the UK public.


In my opinion a second referendum is the only way to go. The question would need to be a choice between May`s WA (unless Johnson can by some chance get another WA with the EU then he could put that one on the ballot instead) Leave without a deal or remain. The referendum would need to be legally binding with a date set that the result of the referendum will come into effect on that day, so for instance on the 31st January 2020 we leave with a deal, leave no deal or revoke article 50 depending on results. There should be no stupid pre -referendum debating, no fear mongering, no promises of milk, honey and glittery unicorns.


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> Not until 31 st October.


Or the next General Election, whichever is sooner


----------



## Elles

We’ll see whether I’m being unfair or not. 

I’ve been right so far.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

havoc said:


> No because he was due to leave at the end the current session and the judgement means it didn't end.


I think he said at the next general election or October 31st, he was always going to come back on the 14th when parliament was due to reopen as until the end of October he is still the speaker.


----------



## JANICE199

saartje said:


> The sensible way forward would surely be to put through an act to hold a second referendum? The public know what MP's want to do but Parliament doesn't know what the UK public want today?
> 
> MP's are meant to represent the public in their constituencies how can they if they don't know what their constituents want today. Put a referendum back to the UK public.
> 
> Yes there has been a referendum in 2016 which was based on lies. Now the public know the truth surely sense would say put it back to the people. If the UK public decide to vote to leave then so be it.


*This is what i think would be the best way forward. They should get a deal and then tell the people what the deal is, and let them vote. *


----------



## kimthecat

Larry for PM !


Larry the Cat
@Number10cat
·
52m
"Given the Prime Minister acted unlawfully, the time has come for a figure the nation can trust to take charge..." #SupremeCourt


----------



## kimthecat

https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAHLZzL?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare

Parliament to start tomorrow says Bercow.

The House of Commons is to sit on Wednesday at 11.30, with "full scope for urgent questions, ministerial statements and applications for emergency debates", Commons Speaker John Bercow has announced.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> https://a.msn.com/r/2/AAHLZzL?m=en-gb&referrerID=InAppShare
> 
> Parliament to start tomorrow says Bercow.
> 
> The House of Commons is to sit on Wednesday at 11.30, with "full scope for urgent questions, ministerial statements and applications for emergency debates", Commons Speaker John Bercow has announced.


Will be interesting to see if the government attend, I suppose it will depend on what response Johnson gives.


----------



## KittenKong

Magyarmum said:


> I don't follow you.
> 
> Why should we expect "Enemies of the People" headlines in the papers?


----------



## Jesthar

Magyarmum said:


> I don't follow you.
> 
> Why should we expect "Enemies of the People" headlines in the papers?


Not quite "Enemy of the People" (yet), but Leave EU are already sailing close to that particular wind:










I wish they'd all just grow up! Why should judges who are supposed to uphold the rule of LAW rule differently just because it's the PM breaking the law?


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> He went about it in the right way. There is a procedure for doing so, documents which must be served.


I dont know what documents have to be served.

John Major prorogued parliament in for *19 *days in 1997 to delay a report into Conservative MPs taking bribes.

Judges say Johnson had no justification for such an extreme act that affects Parliaments ability to carry out its functions.

Hmm! Cant see any good reason for major to do it either.


----------



## Elles

Yeah but conservative MPs aren’t going to argue about it if it benefits them and no one was bothered as it didn’t affect them like brexit will and there was no go fund me back then. So of course he got away with it, the hypocrite.


----------



## Elles

Note that the judgement is after the Labour Party conference, but before the conservatives, who I presume will now have to cancel theirs?


----------



## Elles

I can see why previous courts and Boris himself thought morally it was sailing close to the wind, but legally it was fine. Especially given what John Major did in the past. These are people and their opinion was important, it wasn’t black and white. I expected them to find that he shouldn’t have done it if there was any way they could legally. We all know why the case was brought and we all know why Boris did it, it hasn’t worked. So onward and upward.


----------



## havoc

kimthecat said:


> John Major prorogued parliament in for *19 *days in 1997 to delay a report into Conservative MPs taking bribes.
> 
> Judges say Johnson had no justification for such an extreme act that affects Parliaments ability to carry out its functions.
> 
> Hmm! Cant see any good reason for major to do it either.


All that was needed was for a witness statement to be produced giving the reason. Boris didn't do that, wouldn't put his name to a reason for suspending Parliament. In the absence of a good reason it was unlawful. If Major had been challenged I'm guessing he'd have been happy enough to sign a witness statement.

Could be Boris decided not to bother because he believed he was above the law, that court process didn't apply to him. He could have stopped the whole circus long before this stage with a simple witness statement and chose not to.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> All that was needed was for a witness statement to be produced giving the reason. Boris didn't do that, wouldn't put his name to a reason for suspending Parliament. In the absence of a good reason it was unlawful. If Major had been challenged I'm guessing he'd have been happy enough to sign a witness statement.


Boris didn't say why? I thought he said that as new PM he prorogued Parliament for a few days including the conference season when they wouldn't be sitting anyway, in order to prepare for a Queen's speech and put forward his plans, as is usual for a new PM. The complaint being that there is nothing usual about current times and it's unlawful to prorogue parliament unless there's nothing much happening.

Boris didn't?

Hmmm. More to this than meets the eye then.


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> I dont know what documents have to be served.
> 
> John Major prorogued parliament in for *19 *days in 1997 to delay a report into Conservative MPs taking bribes.
> 
> Judges say Johnson had no justification for such an extreme act that affects Parliaments ability to carry out its functions.
> 
> Hmm! Cant see any good reason for major to do it either.


You'd hope the govenment had some idea about which processes it needed to follow, though!

I suspect the main differences between John Major proroguing Parliament and BoJos bungled attempt is

A) Major followed the correct process, BoJo didn't
B) See A 

The justices have gone to great lengths to clarify that whatever was supposed to be going on in Parliament, be it Brexit or anything else, was not a factor in the decision, only the lack of reasonable justification.


----------



## Elles

Jesthar said:


> You'd hope the govenment had some idea about which processes it needed to follow, though!
> 
> I suspect the main differences between John Major proroguing Parliament and BoJos bungled attempt is
> 
> A) Major followed the correct process, BoJo didn't
> B) See A
> 
> The justices have gone to great lengths to clarify that whatever was supposed to be going on in Parliament, be it Brexit or anything else, was not a factor in the decision, only the lack of reasonable justification.


The complete opposite from what I'm reading. They have said that why Boris did it is irrelevant and they have no need to examine that. Could be why Boris didn't give his reasons in a witness statement. Why he did it had no bearing on it.

They're saying that it is unlawful to prorogue parliament unless there's nothing much happening, regardless of why you do it. No one can say that there's nothing much happening, what with Brexit, hence they ruled that it was unlawful.


----------



## Elles

Elles said:


> They have said it was unlawful to prorogue parliament at a time of national importance


Why has no bearing on it.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> The complete opposite from what I'm reading. They have said that why Boris did it is irrelevant and they have no need to examine that. Could be why Boris didn't give his reasons in a witness statement. Why he did it had no bearing on it.


Fact still remains it would never have got this far if they'd simply put in a piece of paper with a signature. Why they didn't could have been arrogance or maybe that as it's a signed statement of truth he was wary of putting his name to it for some reason.

Everything which has followed could easily have been avoided.


----------



## Elles

How was he going to justify proroguing parliament for the conference season? It was so he could tack on the 4 or 5 days I think. I don’t think he could have just prorogued for those days, as they were too far in the future, so he had to make it longer? From what I’m seeing that was the main problem. He could probably have got away with 4 or 5 days, it would take too long to come to court anyway. He gave them this. I wonder why.

He says he’s still going for a Queen’s Speech and to leave on 31st October. Maybe he wants to prorogue again.

Never liked him, don’t trust him. :Cigar


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> Maybe he wants to prorogue again


I believe he did say something to that effect but that was before he lost eleven nil. Not so sure how confident he'll be now.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> I believe he did say something to that effect but that was before he lost eleven nil. Not so sure how confident he'll be now.


He still looks pretty confident imo.


----------



## Jesthar

Elles said:


> How was he going to justify proroguing parliament for the conference season? It was so he could tack on the 4 or 5 days I think. I don't think he could have just prorogued for those days, as they were too far in the future, so he had to make it longer? From what I'm seeing that was the main problem. He could probably have got away with 4 or 5 days, it would take too long to come to court anyway. He gave them this. I wonder why.


Which is probably why, given his lack of willingness to SAY why, it has been ruled unlawful I guess. A brief proroguing and reopening at the change of a PM is relatively normal. Shutting down parliament for 5 weeks is not.

Incidentally, if memory serves pretty much the only thing PM team DID say was that the proroguing was absolutely, definitely, cross my heart and hope to be spanked until my bottom turns purple nothing to do with Brexit...



Elles said:


> He says he's still going for a Queen's Speech and to leave on 31st October. Maybe he wants to prorogue again.


Already made a few noises about it. Whether or not he'd actually TRY it is another matter npw he knows where the Supreme Court stands


----------



## havoc

Jesthar said:


> Incidentally, if memory serves pretty much the only thing PM team DID say was that the proroguing was absolutely, definitely, cross my heart and hope to be spanked until my bottom turns purple nothing to do with Brexit...


Love it when someone makes me smile in this unholy mess


----------



## Calvine

I wonder if he and girlfriend have finished unpacking yet or if their stuff is still in packing cases?


----------



## Jonescat

Celebrate the Britain we love making something good out of something bad, and also celebrate Lady Hale's spider:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223679208508

It is a British business, Halloween is coming up and Shelter benefits


----------



## 3dogs2cats

@Arnie83 hope you are ok and please can we tempt you to participate in this thread ( and other threads of course) you are greatly missed!


----------



## Magyarmum

3dogs2cats said:


> @Arnie83 hope you are ok and please can we tempt you to participate in this thread ( and other threads of course) you are greatly missed!


I'll second that!


----------



## havoc

I don't think he's going anywhere for a while. Corbyn won't go for a no confidence vote and nobody else can. His own party can't shift him can they? Doesn't he have to be in post for a year before his own can turn on him?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

havoc said:


> I don't think he's going anywhere for a while. Corbyn won't go for a no confidence vote and nobody else can. His own party can't shift him can they? Doesn't he have to be in post for a year before his own can turn on him?


They cant bring another vote of no confidence in the leader within 12 months of holding one but does that apply to a new leader because in theory a vote of confidence was passed when he got on the ballot paper to go out to the party members? Many things to consider


----------



## kimthecat

havoc said:


> Fact still remains it would never have got this far if they'd simply put in a piece of paper with a signature. Why they didn't could have been arrogance or maybe that as it's a signed statement of truth he was wary of putting his name to it for some reason.
> 
> Everything which has followed could easily have been avoided.


Call me suspicious but I think he was wary of signing !


----------



## kimthecat

Magyarmum said:


> I'll second that!


and I third it. Come back @Arnie83 Please pretty please!


----------



## 3dogs2cats

What I don't understand - ok I don't understand much of it to be honest- why was Johnson so set on suspending parliament? If he wants a GE he could have got one through the short law route, he must have known the opposition parties were not going to let him have an election before delaying Brexit so he could have got the short law through by naming October 15th as GE day, he only needed a majority of one to get it through much more chance of that than having to get two thirds of MP to vote in favour under the five term rule. Parliament would have been suspended for 25 working days prior to the election. By insisting on proroguing Parliament he run out of time of going down that route. 

I wonder if he doesn't really want an election despite his bluster, he knows he probably won`t get a majority anyway.


----------



## Jackie C

If Boris is so angry about the decision today, he could always appeal to the European courts.........


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Jackie C said:


> If Boris is so angry about the decision today, he could always appeal to the European courts.........


----------



## kimthecat

Jackie C said:


> If Boris is so angry about the decision today, he could always appeal to the European courts.........


:Hilarious


----------



## havoc

Jackie C said:


> If Boris is so angry about the decision today, he could always appeal to the European courts.........


Crossed my mind earlier today :Hilarious


----------



## KittenKong

3dogs2cats said:


> @Arnie83 hope you are ok and please can we tempt you to participate in this thread ( and other threads of course) you are greatly missed!


Come back Goblin and Noushka too!


----------



## havoc

KittenKong said:


> Come back Goblin and Noushka too!


Ah, good old Noush. Never short of robust discussion when she was around


----------



## KittenKong

Goes to show Johnson thought he could do full Trump, probably under the instruction of Cummings. It backfired which is an excellent day for British democracy.

Even Farage has been critical, then with his dislike of Cummings I'm sure he'd be longing to take his place as an unelected advisor.

And where's Johnson? In the bloody USA


----------



## 3dogs2cats

It would be amusing when Johnson does legally prorogue parliament in order to get the Queen`s Speech heard if she refused to attend due to her Prime Minster being a lying toad! 

I bet she is fuming, first they ask her to make a Queens Speech on one of her important race days - Ascot I think, Cameron tells everyone he asked her to get involved with the Scottish Independence referendum, now Johnson has made a fool of her, they always say she is very sharp and astute I bet she has a few choice words at the next privy council!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Looking forward to PM question time tomorrow.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Paws2 said:


> Looking forward to PM question time tomorrow.


There isn't going to be PM question time HP, something to do with the questions not being able to be put forward to day I think.


----------



## Happy Paws2

3dogs2cats said:


> There isn't going to be PM question time HP, something to do with the questions not being able to be put forward to day I think.


That's shame.


----------



## kimthecat

I just read twiter It looks like Brexiteers aren't taking this lying down. They are organising a mass rally if we dont leave on Oct 31st, They are communicating by something called Telegraph . No , not the old style one but an app


----------



## Elles

I don’t really understand why they were told to go back. What about the conferences? If they were half way through, shouldn’t it be up to them whether they sit or not?


----------



## 3dogs2cats

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's shame.


Oh I`m sure we will get plenty of shouty days, my dad loved PMs QT, mum used to say he was watching the sheep because all she could hear was baa baa baa


----------



## KittenKong

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...me-court-lawyers-enemies-of-the-people/24/09/


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> I just read twiter It looks like Brexiteers aren't taking this lying down. They are organising a mass rally if we dont leave on Oct 31st, They are communicating by something called Telegraph . No , not the old style one but an app that is secure


 Ah that a shame not proper telegraphs I was looking through my parents wedding album the old telegraphs were so lovely and quaint. Actually come to think of it they should communicate by telegraph that is proper going back to old ways - perfect!


----------



## cheekyscrip

So now not only Parliament but also the Court are the enemies?

Law and democracy itself are the enemy of the people?
Who are the people?


No Deal will be an utter disaster for the people but opportunities for a few.


Getting out of Single Market is dumb.


----------



## cheekyscrip

When government can do whatever whenever is it a democracy?

Parliament cannot be shut down just because government cannot force their decisions!!!!


----------



## Elles

So what next? An extension followed by a second referendum with deal or remain?

Will Boris resign, or will legal advisors be the fall guys?

Will Corbyn get his interim government, or would he rather stay where he is?

Will we get a GE?

I don’t think we’re getting Brexit tbh. Of any kind. Could be wrong of course.


----------



## Magyarmum

Elles said:


> So what next? An extension followed by a second referendum with deal or remain?
> 
> Will Boris resign, or will legal advisors be the fall guys?
> 
> Will Corbyn get his interim government, or would he rather stay where he is?
> 
> Will we get a GE?
> 
> I don't think we're getting Brexit tbh. Of any kind. Could be wrong of course.


I was talking to my son the other evening and he's of the opinion that Brexit will never happen.


----------



## kimthecat

KittenKong said:


> Come back Goblin and Noushka too!


I wondered why I wasn't seeing about ignored posts at the bottom of threads.


----------



## kimthecat

Andrew Parnall
- The Original DontBrexitFixit
@dontbrexitfixit
· 1h
One's Prime Minister lied to one Mr Bond. 
Yes your Majesty .
Make it look like he tripped over his puppy.....


----------



## 3dogs2cats

The Prime Minister has spoken to The Queen following todays supreme court ruling, no further details will be made as to the content of the meeting. No doubt Johnson will be saving those details for his book - Boris, my time as UK Prime Minister - it will be a very short book!


----------



## Calvine

3dogs2cats said:


> @Arnie83 hope you are ok and please can we tempt you to participate in this thread ( and other threads of course) you are greatly missed!


 I hope so, I miss his good sense; but somehow I doubt if he will. There must be so many actual Brexit forums which he feels he is more suited to.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I hope so, I miss his good sense; but somehow I doubt if he will. There must be so many actual Brexit forums which he feels he is more suited to.


Yes , he was always honest .


----------



## Magyarmum

Looks as though Boris might be in Parliament for PMQ's after all!


----------



## Magyarmum

*The Daily Mash*
*Trump spends ten minutes with Johnson and is in deep sh*t already*
25th September 2019









*PRESIDENT Trump has spent three years getting away with murder but after ten minutes with Boris Johnson is now getting impeached. *

The president, previously thought to be untouchable, made the mistake of sharing a press conference with the UK calamity yesterday and now faces impeachment proceedings because the bad luck rubbed off.

A White House source said: "We told him to stay well away from that assh*le. Guy's a jinx.

"Seriously, we've got a president who gives handjobs to Russia, screws porn stars, builds imaginary walls with Mexico and backs white terrorism and walks away without a scratch. It's his only skill.

"But he had to push it, so he takes a meeting with the pariah of Europe who's suddenly getting caught for everything he used to get away with, and the curse jumps right across.

"Impeachment? Just for what, making military aid to the Ukraine dependent on smearing his opponent? That crap would have just washed off before.

"Johnson's a Jonah. We're cutting all trade ties with Britain immediately. They're Iran to us now."


----------



## Happy Paws2

BJ was superpose to make a statement to Parliament at 3.45pm then just after 4pm it's 5.05pm and still no sight of him.


----------



## kimthecat




----------



## Elles

I wish they wouldn’t go on about democracy though. There’s nothing democratic about ignoring voters who have voted 3 times for brexit and made the Brexit Party the largest single party in the European Parliament. I suppose at least they’ve being honest now and dropped the pretence of a People’s Vote.


----------



## havoc

The results of an election are binding, the referendum wasn't. Not saying I'm impressed with the faffing around either, just pointing out the difference.


----------



## Elles

havoc said:


> The results of an election are binding, the referendum wasn't. Not saying I'm impressed with the faffing around either, just pointing out the difference.


They said they would honour it. We've had more elections since though and parties that said they supported brexit did better than those that said they didn't. If the referendum was an opinion poll, they should have said so. I doubt then it would have been the biggest vote in U.K. history.

Of course had remain won, people could still say it wasn't binding, I wonder if it would then have been the same people. I doubt it personally.


----------



## havoc

Elles said:


> If the referendum was an opinion poll, they should have said so. I doubt then it would have been the biggest vote in U.K. history.


They must have done because even I know it isn't binding so it must have been publicised somehow. I understand the frustration at the messing about but 'politicians make promises they don't keep' is hardly news.


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## cheekyscrip

Problem is ... BoJo arrogant and ignorant as always...

But can please opposition come with other direction than Down the Cliff on Halloween Brexit?

There never was a majority of No Deal .
No Deal was never a will of majority.


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## cheekyscrip

Elles said:


> So what next? An extension followed by a second referendum with deal or remain?
> 
> Will Boris resign, or will legal advisors be the fall guys?
> 
> Will Corbyn get his interim government, or would he rather stay where he is?
> 
> Will we get a GE?
> 
> I don't think we're getting Brexit tbh. Of any kind. Could be wrong of course.


Hopefully you are right. No Deal is a disaster for our economy and bad deal is worse than what we have got already.

Will of The People? What about people who want to remain or who want to leave but with reasonable deal ? Surely together they had majority?
No way all 52% voted for No Deal , no matter what consequences and dependence on USA with Trump?

I wish we could get rid of ERG and Corbyn, I wish the middle ground who are the majority got together and pulled together!!!

So many sensible people and none in power!!!! Except Scottish of course.


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## JANICE199

cheekyscrip said:


> Hopefully you are right. No Deal is a disaster for our economy and bad deal is worse than what we have got already.
> 
> Will of The People? What about people who want to remain or who want to leave but with reasonable deal ? Surely together they had majority?
> No way all 52% voted for No Deal , no matter what consequences and dependence on USA with Trump?
> 
> I wish we could get rid of ERG and Corbyn, I wish the middle ground who are the majority got together and pulled together!!!
> 
> So many sensible people and none in power!!!! Except Scottish of course.


*I have said it before and i will say it again. The fairest way of sorting this out is to get a deal, and THEN give the people another vote. At least we might have a better understanding on what we are voting for. *


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## cheekyscrip

JANICE199 said:


> *I have said it before and i will say it again. The fairest way of sorting this out is to get a deal, and THEN give the people another vote. At least we might have a better understanding on what we are voting for. *


Absolutely agree.
The damnest and dumbest thing in the referendum was not knowing except slogans and lies.

Leave campaign had no plan and did they expect that Cameron who campaigned for Remain will fix them a plan?

How dumb is that?

They with no plan, no idea where it goes or how to deliver plunged us into that mess.

Remember 100% of voters in GE elected the Parliament, not 50%.


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## Jackie C

Most of my friends voted remain. The few who voted leave have since told me they regret it. 

The whole thing is a disaster.


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## JANICE199

Jackie C said:


> Most of my friends voted remain. The few who voted leave have since told me they regret it.
> 
> The whole thing is a disaster.


*But did the remains know what they were actually voting for? Personally i can't see how they could have. A deal should have been agreed before there was ever a vote to leave or remain.*


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## KittenKong

JANICE199 said:


> *But did the remains know what they were actually voting for? Personally i can't see how they could have. A deal should have been agreed before there was ever a vote to leave or remain.*


I knew exactly what I voted for as I, like many, have enjoyed the many perks of membership. Although not everyone who voted Remain supports the Euro, Schengen and the idea for an EU army I'd be all for it. That wasn't even on the agenda, just the status quo.

We're now in the 21st century, facing new threats and challenges. This is not the time to go it alone as it's likely the US will dominate the UK, already Trump is setting out his demands for a trade deal by reducing safety standards to theirs which would complicate exports to countries, such as within the EU should that result.

People seem happy with that but I beg to differ. People were sold about taking control of laws etc., but how could you argue that if it's the US determining the rules?

The UK needs to move on and recognise the war with Germany ended in 1945 and not ongoing. They should embrace European partnership and co-operation. Perhaps some do prefer the days of rivalry and wars every 20 years or so.

Plus, there's the risk of domination from Russia too if isolated from the rest of Europe.


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## KittenKong

Now, Johnson's securing more fans.

Poor Nigel, he must be feeling deserted.

The corrupt elite scumbags that are the Tory government....

https://edition.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.270919/data/9122151/index.html


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## Guest

KittenKong said:


> The UK need to move on and recognise the war with Germany ended in 1945 and not ongoing.


And so do some people on here who keep mentioning the war and the 1930's.


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## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> I knew exactly what I voted for as I, like many, have enjoyed the many perks of membership. Although not everyone who voted Remain supports the Euro, Schengen and the idea for an EU army I'd be all for it. That wasn't even on the agenda, just the status quo.
> 
> We're now in the 21st century, facing new threats and challenges. This is not the time to go it alone as it's likely the US will dominate the UK, already Trump is setting out his demands for a trade deal by reducing safety standards to theirs which would complicate exports to countries, such as within the EU should that result.
> 
> People seem happy with that but I beg to differ. People were sold about taking control of laws etc., but how could you argue that if it's the US determining the rules?
> 
> The UK need to move on and recognise the war with Germany ended in 1945 and not ongoing.
> 
> Plus, the risk of domination from Russia too.


Perhaps, in that case you should start taking your own advice?:Angelic
*
"The UK need to move on and recognise the war with Germany ended in 1945 and not ongoing."*


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## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> And so do some people on here who keep mentioning the war and the 1930's.


Not mentioning the Poll Tax .... the Good old days ..... Idi Amin ........ Robert Mugabe .......................................

and so on .................... and so on!


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## JANICE199

KittenKong said:


> I knew exactly what I voted for as I, like many, have enjoyed the many perks of membership. Although not everyone who voted Remain supports the Euro, Schengen and the idea for an EU army I'd be all for it. That wasn't even on the agenda, just the status quo.
> 
> We're now in the 21st century, facing new threats and challenges. This is not the time to go it alone as it's likely the US will dominate the UK, already Trump is setting out his demands for a trade deal by reducing safety standards to theirs which would complicate exports to countries, such as within the EU should that result.
> 
> People seem happy with that but I beg to differ. People were sold about taking control of laws etc., but how could you argue that if it's the US determining the rules?
> 
> The UK need to move on and recognise the war with Germany ended in 1945 and not ongoing.
> 
> Plus, the risk of domination from Russia too.


*How could you have known? I''m old enough to remember this country before we joined the EU. And yes we were doing fine. I know the next thing will be, oh but you oldies are looking at the past through rose tinted glasses. Are we, oh is it because we remember being more content and happy with our lot? This country, with the right government can and have, done without the EU before, and we can again. BUT, it will take a government that loves this country to make it work. Not a government that is only interested in the rich.*


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## Jesthar

JANICE199 said:


> *But did the remains know what they were actually voting for? Personally i can't see how they could have. A deal should have been agreed before there was ever a vote to leave or remain.*


Apologies, it may be the autism but I'm not following the logic here?

If we separate out that no-one can actually know what the future holds, Remain was the option that held the certainty of knowing what you were voting for as it was a vote for carrying on with the way things already were. Leave was the shot in the dark, as it couldn't be defined - and still isn't, which is why I agree a deal should have been negotiated in principle before any kind of public vote was considered.


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## Happy Paws2

JANICE199 said:


> *But did the remains know what they were actually voting for? Personally i can't see how they could have.*
> 
> *Yes I knew exactly why I voted Remain.*
> 
> * A deal should have been agreed before there was ever a vote to leave or remain.*


*I agree with that.*


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## Elles

A deal wouldn’t have mattered imo. People were voting against the Eu. Unless you mean more remain voters would have voted leave if there was a deal? 

There’s plenty of evidence that most leave voters didn’t vote to leave with a deal. They voted to leave the Eu and for them, leave meant leave. Sorry.

Current polling demonstrates that most of the public (55%) accept brexit and want us to leave with or without a deal around the 31st October. Regardless of how they voted in the referendum.

Unless there is a second referendum. Then remain votes (51%) may win by a small margin.

It seems that democracy is important to the public and they would rather we leave on 31st October, than drag it out again, although many would accept a second vote and if we get one, remain have a good chance. Polls haven’t been getting it right lately though, so who knows.


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## havoc

Jesthar said:


> If we separate out that no-one can actually know what the future holds, Remain was the option that held the certainty of knowing what you were voting for as it was a vote for carrying on with the way things already were. Leave was the shot in the dark,


I think every leave voter 'knew' exactly what they were voting for. Problem is every one of them was voting for their own personal version of Brexit and that can't happen. Whatever anyone admits to now, immigration was a big deal at the time of the referendum in many areas. For others it was supposedly sovereignty - which we never didn't have but does have a good patriotic feel to it and can inflame passions very nicely. Elsewhere 'the economy' was often mentioned - the country was suddenly awash with expert economists. In my area it's just a general hatred of foreigners ..... and a 'foreigner' can be someone from the next village so lord help anyone from further afield.

Delivering an acceptable Brexit to the whole country is nigh on impossible.


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## havoc

Elles said:


> A deal wouldn't have mattered imo. People were voting against the Eu.


I honestly think many were voting against the government. This was their chance to have a pop at years of austerity and who can blame them? There's a reason that bus touted a slogan about the NHS and it worked. However much people say they knew it wasn't true it's an institution we hold dear for good reason and once a seed is planted......


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## Elles

havoc said:


> I honestly think many were voting against the government. This was their chance to have a pop at years of austerity and who can blame them? There's a reason that bus touted a slogan about the NHS and it worked. However much people say they knew it wasn't true it's an institution we hold dear for good reason and once a seed is planted......


I don't know. I know people who say they've wanted out of the Eu for years. Don't forget we've been bombarded with 'bureaucracy in Brussels', 'gravy train', 'snouts in the trough' for years. And we all know words matter. 

The bus was very late in the game and although economical with the truth, wasn't an outright lie. They could spend some of the money we pay the Eu on the NHS and if you work around very carefully, the Eu could easily cost the amount stated. It depends on what they did with the figures, but really once they go over a couple of hundred thousand they could use any figure they like.

I don't think that for that many people voting Leave was having a go at our government. A pop at the establishment, including the Eu maybe. I didn't vote leave, so I can only go on what people I know irl say. Most of Westminster still isn't listening of course.


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## havoc

Elles said:


> I don't think that for that many people voting Leave was having a go at our government. A pop at the establishment, including the Eu maybe


Yeah, I'll go along with a general two fingers up to the establishment. Only hope they don't live to regret it. When we overthrow an established regime there needs to be something to take its place or chaos ensues - oh, yeah, um,


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## cheekyscrip

The problem is : @Elles is right, it was a vote against. Against many things like non EU immigration, Muslim, austerity, overcrowded schools, lack of affordable housing...
Country was recovering just fine from recession and many reasons why people voted against had little to do with EU and lots to do with Government.

Vote against leads nowhere obviously.

Everyone has a different scenario then what they voted for!

There should have been one deal to vote for.
Because there was to be one Brexit not 17 mln individual deals.

This is why it was left so vague, it would have never won - like May Deal.

The reality is that obviously EU will not agree to everything and the compromise has to be reasonable for both sides.

If people voted against austerity what they will get with Brexit? Ironic.

If they voted against mln EU immigration what do you think new deals with non EU countries will bring? More visas.

If they voted against cutting funds for NHS - they will get privatization of it.

They wanted to be sovereign? Ha!!! 
As satellite country of USA? 
Brexit will basically make all people voted against even worse.

I see no benefits to Brexit.
Especially leaving Single Market is bonkers.


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## KittenKong

havoc said:


> I think every leave voter 'knew' exactly what they were voting for. Problem is every one of them was voting for their own personal version of Brexit and that can't happen. Whatever anyone admits to now, immigration was a big deal at the time of the referendum in many areas. For others it was supposedly sovereignty - which we never didn't have but does have a good patriotic feel to it and can inflame passions very nicely. Elsewhere 'the economy' was often mentioned - the country was suddenly awash with expert economists. In my area it's just a general hatred of foreigners ..... and a 'foreigner' can be someone from the next village so lord help anyone from further afield.
> 
> Delivering an acceptable Brexit to the whole country is nigh on impossible.


Indeed. Once Brexit is delivered I think they'll be a lot of very disappointed people.

Some extreme Leavers threaten civil unrest if Brexit isn't delivered on 31/10/19. Who's to say they won't threaten the same when Brexit doesn't deliver what they believed they voted for?


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## Elles

It must be difficult if you’re really struggling then you see the Eu and MEPs enjoying themselves and to add insult to injury a nice plaque on some opera house, or museum thanking the Eu for giving them money. Your money. That you have no say over. Then you read some article about how Eu money funds wealthy landowners to support French farmers and gave grants and loans to British companies to enable them to set up in Croatia or Singapore. While you lose your job, or know someone who lost their job and we’re told we have to tighten our belts as the government impose austerity and the Eu refuse any more concessions, whilst jetting around, building themselves luxury working environments and seemingly hiding their accounts.

People who can barely afford to visit the local park, aren’t bothered about the cost of flights, holidays to Europe and the economy. They want to know that they can feed their family, be cared for when they are sick and buy a few luxuries. 

And they accuse leave voters of racism, fascism, group them with far right extremists and tell them how terrible they are. Nope, I would guess many agreed with the sentiment behind the message on the bus, if not the accuracy. They truly believe we will be better out of the Eu and able to hold our own politicians to account. They must be watching with increasing horror as they see our own elected MPs trying their best to prove they aren’t accountable to anyone.


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## kimthecat

havoc said:


> In my area it's just a general hatred of foreigners ..... and a 'foreigner' can be someone from the next village so lord help anyone from further afield.


You live in Norfolk? 



> Delivering an acceptable Brexit to the whole country is nigh on impossible.


Yes


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## Calvine




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## KittenKong

Sinister.


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## KittenKong




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## Magyarmum

KittenKong said:


> Sinister.
> View attachment 418230


Link and reference??????????????????????????????????

Otherwise it's a waste of time and effort!


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## Happy Paws2

I just wish I had better health and little more money and I move to France tomorrow and leave this broken country.


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## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I just wish I had better health and little more money and I move to France tomorrow and leave this broken country.


You lived in France for many years and came back because of your health I understand so perhaps France isnt so good for older people as Britain is?

Also , the yellow vest protests this summer so that all is not well In France.
I spent sometime in France and I loved it there but there was a lot of racism.

At my stage in life , i wouldn't want to live anywhere else but here.


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## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> *You lived in France for many years and came back because of your health* I understand so perhaps France isnt so good for older people as Britain is?
> 
> .


NO....I've spent many happy holidays staying with friends sometimes twice a year, until we had Amber then had an apartment so she had her own space. I Have Never Lived there.


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## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> NO....I've spent many happy holidays staying with friends sometimes twice a year, until we had Amber then had an apartment so she had her own space. I Have Never Lived there.


Oh I see . I thought you said you'd lived there . I dont think having frequent holidays there is the same experience as actually living there .


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## Guest

I see Johnson is suspending the United Kingdom Parliament again next week before the Queens speech on the 14th October 2019.


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## KittenKong

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49913130


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## Guest

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 418453
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49913130
> 
> View attachment 418454


There is nothing the United Kingdom Parliament can do to stop the United Kingdom Prime Minister to stop the Proguing of Parliament for one week so the Queen does a speech to reopen a new session of Parliament. It is only one week and MPs only lose a few days of debating which they arent using to discuss Brexit anyway they are too bothered about their self importance and how they speak to one another than the most important topic of Brexit.


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## Magyarmum

saartje said:


> There is nothing the United Kingdom Parliament can do to stop the United Kingdom Prime Minister to stop the Proguing of Parliament for one week so the Queen does a speech to reopen a new session of Parliament. It is only one week and MPs only lose a few days of debating which they arent using to discuss Brexit anyway they are too bothered about their self importance and how they speak to one another than the most important topic of Brexit.


Perhaps KK should read this because then he'll find out there is nothing unusual/illegal in proroguing Parliament in order to open a new session with the Queen's speech.

I think I'm correct in saying that if Parliament is in recess from the end of business Tuesday 8th October until Monday 14th October it means Parliament will only be in recess for two days, namely Wednesday and Thursday because Parliament doesn't sit on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday.

https://fullfact.org/law/proroguing-parliament/

*What does proroguing parliament mean?*


----------

