# Aggression or playfulness?



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Hi, I'd love to have another view point on this incident that happened to me and my dog this morning.

I received amazing advice last time, and used and practiced to great effect the tips given, and our walks now are usually without incident. This one...I'd just like to know what it is I was dealing with, and if I see it again what do I do?

Basically, me and pooch were out this morning, 7 mile walk, saw tons of dogs of all sizes with some great greetings going on, some slightly indifferent some a little more playful. To each type of greeting, my dog either has a cursory polite sniff, quick zoom about or totally ignores the other dog and passes on.

Close to the end of the walk however we came upon two ladies walking a German Shepherd...the dog hunkers down, staring intently at my dog, the two ladies walk on oblivious that their dog has dropped back. 

I call my dog in, but just as I did so this other dog launched at mine (I missed the window by seconds I think), started chasing him with a rather more serious appearance then rough housing and fooling about. 
It then tried to latch onto my dog and and mount him, my dog broke free and ran past me, I tried to step between and use my folded umbrella as a blocker to get the other dog to slow down I think the woman thought I was trying to hit her dog because she screamed at me and then told me off for intervening, at which point I said 'please call your dog please!' she then began shouting at me really nastily saying 'YOU call your dog' then I looked away from her back to the two dogs, and saw her dog and shouted 'LOOK at your dog!' who was firmly attached to my dog (who is unharmed btw) and my dog was dragging it by this point. It was all pretty horrible I have to say :sad::sad::sad:

I have to point out, I would never have struck her dog, I just put the tip of my umbrella down to the ground and tried to make it into a post or obstacle of some kind to slow her dog down as it was hurtling at mine with such intent.

Was her dog being overly playful or was there a bit of aggression underneath that display, I don't know? If I see a dog do that again, am I best getting my dog in on the lead? 

Thanks in advance for any advice you can spare, it would be much appreciated 

Ps, my dog is now just shy of two years old, runs with a big pack a couple of times a week in doggie daycare and is well mannered around other dogs...but this is a bit of a new one on me.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I would be avoiding this dog where possible in the future. Whether aggression or inappropriate play it is not acceptable behaviour and the fact the owner clearly doesn't give a monkeys means it will just carry on and likely escalate. Mine would not take kindly to that behaviour and would tell the dog to sod off which would probably escalate the situation unfortunately. And of course no doubt mine would be in the wrong for objecting to this bullying


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> I would be avoiding this dog where possible in the future. Whether aggression or inappropriate play it is not acceptable behaviour and the fact the owner clearly doesn't give a monkeys means it will just carry on and likely escalate. Mine would not take kindly to that behaviour and would tell the dog to sod off which would probably escalate the situation unfortunately. And of course no doubt mine would be in the wrong for objecting to this bullying


Sarah thank you so much for your reply, I sort of saw it was going beyond the usual messing about, after my dog didn't come back and started legging about, I tried to stay calm and think 'they are just playing, relax' and ignore the hunkering down and then launching thing, it was the biting and trying to latch onto my dog, and subsequent mounting that really freaked me out and made me realise it had got way out of hand and it had started from the second this other dog laid eyes on mine.

I wish my dog had stuck up for himself, I'd have told the woman that he doesn't like being mounted forcibly by other male dogs and bitten into the bargain (I would have worded it a little differently to that  ) and that her dog got what he deserved, and if she didn't like it maybe restrain her dog in future?

Thank you, I'll know for the future it wasn't my dogs fault, and not mine either for having my dog off the lead, she seemed to think my dog was at fault somehow because she was really nastily saying 'YOU call YOUR dog!!!' like I should have stopped it ever happening somehow


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wispy said:


> Sarah thank you so much for your reply, I sort of saw it was going beyond the usual messing about, after my dog didn't come back and started legging about, I tried to stay calm and think 'they are just playing, relax' and ignore the hunkering down and then launching thing, it was the biting and trying to latch onto my dog, and subsequent mounting that really freaked me out and made me realise it had got way out of hand and it had started from the second this other dog laid eyes on mine.
> 
> I wish my dog had stuck up for himself, I'd have told the woman that he doesn't like being mounted forcibly by other male dogs and bitten into the bargain (I would have worded it a little differently to that  ) and that her dog got what he deserved, and if she didn't like it maybe restrain her dog in future?
> 
> Thank you, I'll know for the future it wasn't my dogs fault, and not mine either for having my dog off the lead, she seemed to think my dog was at fault somehow because she was really nastily saying 'YOU call YOUR dog!!!' like I should have stopped it ever happening somehow


It's amazing how often people like this lady, who is not watching her dog or making any real attempt to control it, will turn nasty when challenged.

Your dog did nothing wrong. The Shepherd's behaviour was not acceptable at all, neither was his owner's attitude. I have to say that my Jack Russell would have bitten it, so your dog actually coped very well.

I would give this dog a wide berth in future if you can.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Sweety said:


> It's amazing how often people like this lady, who is not watching her dog or making any real attempt to control it, will turn nasty when challenged.
> 
> Your dog did nothing wrong. The Shepherd's behaviour was not acceptable at all, neither was his owner's attitude. I have to say that my Jack Russell would have bitten it, so your dog actually coped very well.
> 
> I would give this dog a wide berth in future if you can.


Thank you Sweety, I was actually really upset by the whole thing and the fact that she shouted at me, when her dog seemed to really be trying to be nasty to mine, if it had been the other way round I would have been falling over myself to apologise 

I know for next time when I see a dog do that, to be more insistent at getting mine in on the lead, and be quicker about it too! And not be shy of telling the other owner that their dog was at fault for aggressive behavior. <Sigh> I just wish it had never happened


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

When I started my dog business the advice I was given by a behaviourist who has also owned GSDs for many, many years was that GSDs should not be allowed to chase other dogs even if they are playing because they can use chase to intimidate.

Obviously the advice was very general, to protect me as a dog walker, and doesn't necessarily describe the behaviour of the may GSDs out there. But I have seen GSDs, usually the not quite properly socialised ones, using chase in a very unpleasant manner. And a dog doesn't always have to be running, to be chasing. The stare is a part of the chase sequence.

So playful or aggressive, the behaviour of that dog was not appropriate as you've described it.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

No, not your fault for having your dog off leash going by what you've said. Her dog was the one behaving inappropriately and in a way your dog clearly wasn't comfortable with. A lot of people seem to get nasty if you point out that their dogs behaviour is inappropriate or rude and try to turn it around so you and yours are in the wrong. Easier to blame you than admit they're at fault, that way they don't have to work on the problem 

Might actually be better your dog didn't stick up for himself to be honest. While it can stop this sort of behaviour it can also escalate it if the dog is the sort to rise to the challenge so to speak when another tells it off. Mine will stand up for himself and I generally try to step in before that happens, I don't want him thinking he needs to be defensive and snappy around other dogs or him triggering another dog to real aggression. If someone else won't control their dog I'll do it for them. If they don't like my methods tough luck.


----------



## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> *Might actually be better your dog didn't stick up for himself to be honest.* While it can stop this sort of behaviour it can also escalate it if the dog is the sort to rise to the challenge so to speak when another tells it off. Mine will stand up for himself and I generally try to step in before that happens, I don't want him thinking he needs to be defensive and snappy around other dogs or him triggering another dog to real aggression. If someone else won't control their dog I'll do it for them. If they don't like my methods tough luck.


Probably is... I have a dog who does not take kindly to this sort of behavior and herder overlords dont take kindly to how he tends to go about voicing his opinions. Long story short, this would easily have turned in to a major mess with a dog like mine. 
Because I know this about my dog, Im not above smacking a dog with an umbrella (or whatever else is handy) to keep them away from mine if theyre behaving inappropriately. No, the owner may not like it, but Im willing to bet theyd like my dogs approach even less.


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

BoredomBusters said:


> So playful or aggressive, the behaviour of that dog was not appropriate as you've described it.


In a nutshell.

And umbrella usage in such cases would imo be justified.

J


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Wispy, hi

What a shame your enjoyable walk had an upsetting ending.

But from what you wrote this is how I perceive it ( and I wasn't present to witness!):

The moment you involved your umbrella which the other owner perceived as an assault on her dog, her sense of being reasonable, rational and objective took a temporary leave of absence. Which will, or at least may, account for her behaviour and refusal to recall her dog.

I'm not saying her action was right, BTW. But trust me, until you meet someone who you THINK is hitting or about to hit your dog, you don't know how Mama-bear protective you'll react. 

Actually....you DO know. Because you perceived her dog a threat to your dog and instinctively took measures to deter her dog. Who, if I understood your post correctly, attempted some rough play chasing followed by a hump. Since you didn't say that your dog was hurt or terrified, or attempted to snap the other dog off, I'm thinking that this was a LOT more upsetting for you than him. True, she didn't call her dog back, but neither did you Is it possible that your concern for your boy of what MIGHT happen to him if the other dog was nasty - especially in view that it was a GSD - clouded and skewed your perception of what actually went on? Not in any way an accusation, but fear is a terrible juror. It sometimes pays, after the dust has settled, to try and replay an incident but from the perspective of an uninvolved outsider.

What do do in future? Well, the ONLY control we ever have is over our own dog. If you are not comfortable to let your dog deal with a situation like this on his own, briefly distract and leash him and if the other dog is a nuisance, shoo him off. Verbally and if that doesn't work, physically ( I don't mean kick him in the head! Just gesture him to take a hike ). I would only ever hit another dog if it really went for mine and I thought my dog couldn't/wouldn't defend himself. Usually,they are pretty good in communicating "sod off" to the other dog when they have to.

Just my experience, but trying to engage the other owner to do something is usually futile. If they ARE on the ball they take action before you need to call out to them, and if they aren't it is mostly a waste of effort and breath. So just stick to dealing with the dogs. First yours and then the other.


----------



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Actually....you DO know. Because you perceived her dog a threat to your dog and instinctively took measures to deter her dog. Who, if I understood your post correctly, attempted some rough play chasing followed by a hump. Since you didn't say that your dog was hurt or terrified, or attempted to snap the other dog off, I'm thinking that this was a LOT more upsetting for you than him. True, she didn't call her dog back, but neither did you Is it possible that your concern for your boy of what MIGHT happen to him if the other dog was nasty - especially in view that it was a GSD - clouded and skewed your perception of what actually went on? Not in any way an accusation, but fear is a terrible juror. It sometimes pays, after the dust has settled, to try and replay an incident but from the perspective of an uninvolved outsider.


Not sure if it is just the size difference, but myself and my dog have similar issues with alsations.


----------



## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Actually....you DO know. Because you perceived her dog a threat to your dog and instinctively took measures to deter her dog. Who, if I understood your post correctly, attempted some rough play chasing followed by a hump. Since you didn't say that your dog was hurt or terrified, or attempted to snap the other dog off, I'm thinking that this was a LOT more upsetting for you than him. True, she didn't call her dog back, but neither did you Is it possible that your concern for your boy of what MIGHT happen to him if the other dog was nasty - especially in view that it was a GSD - clouded and skewed your perception of what actually went on? Not in any way an accusation, but fear is a terrible juror. It sometimes pays, after the dust has settled, to try and replay an incident but from the perspective of an uninvolved outsider.


To me, none of this matters. Doesnt matter what breed or size the other dog is, doesnt matter if my dog is hurt or upset or not. Allowing your dog to run up to another dog is inappropriate at best, more often dangerous.

Even when there is an established relationship between two dogs, I would still expect the dog initiating play chase to heed the signals of the other dog, and if the chasee doesnt want to be chased, its time to back off. My friends sighthound loves a good game of chase, but when shes done, shes done. My dog she plays with is obnoxious and doesnt know when to stop and hes forever getting his muzzle chomped by her because he doesnt heed her very clear signals. As a behavior nerd its fascinating to watch because her signals are so clear, her corrections appropriate, and my dogs groveling after being corrected is more than a little funny, but no way in hell would I allow that with dogs and owners I dont know.

Unfortunately IME most dogs dont heed the other dogs signals and we humans need to step in for the sake of our dogs. Not all dogs correct appropriately, not all dogs take correction gracefully, not all owners can or know how to intervene before things escalate from there. There are far more these things can go wrong than go right. So if that means employing an umbrella block, then that beats vet bills every time.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel, sorry I should have also pointed out how my dog reacted to give a fuller picture. At first he was ok, so I tried to overlook the stalking and sudden lunging behaviour, then as the other dog became more aggressive in his insistence he was going to hump him come Hell or high water, my dog started to really panic, he dropped his back end and was scurrying along trying desperately to get away. His whole demeanor was panic stricken as he ran past myself and the other two owners.
At this point I did start to call him back more earnestly, I had at the beginning trying to get him to come in to me as I'd seen the other dog hunker down and lunge, but then told myself to stop over reacting.

Of course the other woman would perceive me as threatening her dog, that is only natural. But, I had more than ample chance to soundly wallop the dog square on the head or in the face as it ran towards me chasing my dog who was at this point desperately trying to get away. But I didn't, I jabbed the umbrella down to the floor to create a visual 'block' to try and give the other dog pause. It ran past me and as the blocking thing didn't work, I didn't follow it up with any other motion to hit her dog when it was absolutely the perfect chance for me to do that, I carried on calling my dog who it seemed was becoming deaf in his panic. After her dog was firmly latched onto his scruff and biting him to the point my dog was actually dragging hers along trying to get away, I think the point of reasonable discussion had passed sadly.

If my dog had behaved the same and was harassing another dog to the point of panic and the other owner wanted to stop their dog getting the rough end of the deal with a quick slap or trying to block my dog from hurting their dog, I would be mortified, mortified that my dog had done that and I would leash him and give him a sound clip on the ass as soon as I could to make sure he knew why he was getting a bollocking! 

I grew up around gun dogs, and their training was strict as there is no room for error when they are retrieving and there are up to 20 shotguns at the other end of the field, and they have to sit alongside other dogs and behave. Fighting and generally messing about wasn't allowed on the shoot fields. So I make sure my dog knows exactly what I like and don't like the second he does it taking my lead from watching my dad train dogs up. I'm no superstar trainer by any means, but my dog does what we need him to as a family wonderfully well. 
I just wish I'd known better what that hunkering down and lunging was all about, I would have reacted far, far quicker and as you say, taken control of the part of the situation that I personally could have, and stopped a horrible situation. None of the gun dogs, or any dogs in the pack my dog runs with (anything up to 45) on a weekly basis have ever done that behavior, its a new one on me.
I did wonder at one point if it was intended as play in the beginning, and because my dog ran, the other dog took advantage and became very single minded in dominating him. 

Since this morning, I managed to get hold of one of the handlers at the daycare place and I asked his advise. He said they never let it happen, if a dog there starts to behave like that, it goes in the 'sin bin' to cool off, and if its a repeat offender, its stopped from coming until the problem is sorted by the owner with some training, or its never allowed to come back.

My husband said exactly what you said, sort the dogs first then the owner, he steps in front of dogs that do this, and the other owners never shout at him...I think being 6'2" may have something to do with it :laugh: He said trying to get an owner of an unruly dog to help out is as much use as a chocolate fire guard...they let the dog get like that in the first place so probably don't see any problem and do anything useful other than let it escalate and then end up getting irate.

Another lesson learned, and I'll make sure that if I see that sort of thing again, I'll get my dog in and get him on the leash. Its a shame, because my dog is very friendly and very well mannered with other dogs. If they don't want to know, he'll keep on going, if they want to play and goof he'll join in for a bit then stop, if they just want a quick 'who are you where do you come from?' bum sniff encounter and nothing more, then thats all that happens. He does seem very respectful of other dogs 'no thanks keep moving please' that other dogs give out, or if they are up for a quick play...but its always brief.

thank you for your input and advice, its greatly appreciated, I'll certainly know what to look for in future


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

BoredomBusters said:


> When I started my dog business the advice I was given by a behaviourist who has also owned GSDs for many, many years was that GSDs should not be allowed to chase other dogs even if they are playing because they can use chase to intimidate.
> 
> Obviously the advice was very general, to protect me as a dog walker, and doesn't necessarily describe the behaviour of the may GSDs out there. But I have seen GSDs, usually the not quite properly socialised ones, using chase in a very unpleasant manner. And a dog doesn't always have to be running, to be chasing. The stare is a part of the chase sequence.
> 
> So playful or aggressive, the behaviour of that dog was not appropriate as you've described it.


The chap I spoke to at my dogs daycare place said the same thing as you, that chase games are never allowed, the only thing they are allowed to chase is a ball, then the pack as a whole runs after it, if one dog is caught 'stalking' and lunging at another or other dogs, then they pull it out of the field and it goes in the 'sin bin' purely for the reason that some dogs are lower in the pack, and will be easily threatened and intimidated by this sort of thing. If the dog carries on doing it, its stopped from coming until the owner sorts it out as they don't want the pack disrupted by aggressive and dominating behavior


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

It doesn't matter if it was play or not - what matters is that your dog didn't like it.

That is the key point, for me. My dog would not have liked it either.

I think you should try and avoid this dog and his owner if you can. If you see them again IMMEDIATELY recall your dog and if the other dog approaches, get in front of your dog and if necessary yell 'STOP!' or 'NO!' at the approaching dog.

If at all possible, use your phone and take pics of the dog and owner and tell the owner that if she doesn't stop her dog from approaching yours in the future, you *will* make a formal complaint to the dog warden.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> No, not your fault for having your dog off leash going by what you've said. Her dog was the one behaving inappropriately and in a way your dog clearly wasn't comfortable with. A lot of people seem to get nasty if you point out that their dogs behaviour is inappropriate or rude and try to turn it around so you and yours are in the wrong. Easier to blame you than admit they're at fault, that way they don't have to work on the problem
> 
> Might actually be better your dog didn't stick up for himself to be honest. While it can stop this sort of behaviour it can also escalate it if the dog is the sort to rise to the challenge so to speak when another tells it off. Mine will stand up for himself and I generally try to step in before that happens, I don't want him thinking he needs to be defensive and snappy around other dogs or him triggering another dog to real aggression. If someone else won't control their dog I'll do it for them. If they don't like my methods tough luck.


Now I have had some time inbetween it all, and spoken to one of the daycare guys, you are right. The dog was being over the top, it wouldn't be allowed where my dog goes, any kind of stalking, humping or anything like that is dealt with on the spot and completely discouraged.

Apparently, my dog is fairly high up in the pack and is good at communicating when he's had enough to other dogs with a quick 'back off you' snap or growl, nothing more just that (proud mummy moment  ) but he's not at the top of the pack, he's too young apparently and likes to play too much and doesn't seem to want to be 'top dog'...he just likes fooling about too much  But he's certainly no push over either. 
He isn't a small dog, he's a Labradoodle, and his dad was a big Standard type, so he stands taller than most Labs, and was only a touch lower in the shoulder than the German Shepherd today. I don't know, I'm not sure why it all went so nasty today, I do know I'll watch out for that stalking or hunkering down thing again and get him on the lead next time.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Probably is... I have a dog who does not take kindly to this sort of behavior and herder overlords dont take kindly to how he tends to go about voicing his opinions. Long story short, this would easily have turned in to a major mess with a dog like mine.
> Because I know this about my dog, Im not above smacking a dog with an umbrella (or whatever else is handy) to keep them away from mine if theyre behaving inappropriately. No, the owner may not like it, but Im willing to bet theyd like my dogs approach even less.


 I just wonder, as my dog gets older will he be less forgiving and stand his ground? I was caught unawares by this stalking and lunging thing today, the chase immediately after and the other dogs behavior was clearly not very nice to me, and my dogs panic stricken reaction made me intervene. Lol, if my dog had done it and the other owner smacked his arse with an umbrella, part of me that wasn't dying of embarrassment would think 'serves you right you hooligan'


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> It doesn't matter if it was play or not - what matters is that your dog didn't like it.
> 
> That is the key point, for me. My dog would not have liked it either.
> 
> ...


Thank you OBAYL, that is very sound advice, I didn't have my phone on me today, I will next time, I'll leash my dog and if any unpleasantness ensues then I'll take pics. I really really hope neither of us ever see them again, it was horrible. It was only a lucky grab in the end by the other owner that stopped it chasing my dog further, when I was calling my dog he ran towards me and past the other owner causing her dog to run past her so she managed to grab his collar. I didn't hang about, I just kept calling my dog knowing he was at my heel and we ran away. Sounds really feeble but I thought for my dogs sake, just get away. I checked him over very shortly (within running back distance so I could grab the woman) after for bites, his neck was covered in saliva but no broken skin thankfully so we kept going


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Not sure if it is just the size difference, but myself and my dog have similar issues with alsations.


That is a good point, my dog has never had problems previously with German Shepherds, I'm not sure why the one today took such offence to my dog


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Wispy said:


> Hopeattheendofthetunnel, sorry I should have also pointed out how my dog reacted to give a fuller picture. At first he was ok, so I tried to overlook the stalking and sudden lunging behaviour, then as the other dog became more aggressive in his insistence he was going to hump him come Hell or high water, my dog started to really panic, he dropped his back end and was scurrying along trying desperately to get away. His whole demeanor was panic stricken as he ran past myself and the other two owners.
> At this point I did start to call him back more earnestly, I had at the beginning trying to get him to come in to me as I'd seen the other dog hunker down and lunge, but then told myself to stop over reacting.
> 
> Of course the other woman would perceive me as threatening her dog, that is only natural. But, I had more than ample chance to soundly wallop the dog square on the head or in the face as it ran towards me chasing my dog who was at this point desperately trying to get away. But I didn't, I jabbed the umbrella down to the floor to create a visual 'block' to try and give the other dog pause. It ran past me and as the blocking thing didn't work, I didn't follow it up with any other motion to hit her dog when it was absolutely the perfect chance for me to do that, I carried on calling my dog who it seemed was becoming deaf in his panic. After her dog was firmly latched onto his scruff and biting him to the point my dog was actually dragging hers along trying to get away, I think the point of reasonable discussion had passed sadly.
> ...


Well, again you were not at fault in this situation at all.

The whole scenario can be analysed to death by certain people, (and I don't mean you), but the bottom line is that the behaviour of the GSD was over the top and totally inappropriate and your dog was using avoidance tactics.

I have a JRT bitch and she's fine with other dogs, so long as they are calm. I walk every morning with my Sister and she is currently walking a three year old terrier mix dog, to help out his owner who is ill, the dog is called George.

Every day, he comes flying into my garden like a missile and begins trying to play with Rosie by tearing at her and jumping on her. Every morning, Rosie stands her ground and, when she's had enough, she leaps at him and air snaps. At that point, George gets the message and calms down.

Some dogs, however, won't get the message and this is where the owners have to be aware of what their dog is doing and step in quickly, but sadly, you get the group of owners who want to wander through the park, not a care in the World, chatting and socialising, whilst their dog creates havoc. I know a few of them.

You weren't wrong in using your umbrella to try and block this dog, I feel I would have clouted it.

You did everything right and so did your dog.


----------



## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

Wispy said:


> That is a good point, my dog has never had problems previously with German Shepherds, I'm not sure why the one today took such offence to my dog


This is a bit of a goofy generalization based on nothing scientific, just my own experiences, but there are some dogs who are the type A control freaks of the doggy world, usually of some sort of herding breed. Then there are the boisterous, obnoxious, OTT adrenaline junkie dogs (usually a boxer or lab type) who didnt get the memo to bow to the superiority of the herder overlords.

I have an obnoxious adrenaline junkie and 9 times out of 10, if hes not going to get along with another dog its either a herder overlord play police dog, or its a dog exactly like him - obnoxious and OTT. And then scrappy, snarky terrier types dont bother him in the least. He walks away from that sort of challenge, but play police behavior sets him off. Go figure.

Just as there are compatible and incompatible personalities with humans. And sometimes that compatibility is instantly felt (or instantly NOT felt - that person that rubs you the wrong way just by breathing ). Its very similar with dogs.

I dont know your dogs personality, but labradoodles can be OTT types, just the sort that a herder play police dog cant stand. Nothing against your dog, some personalities just dont mesh.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

The sort of scenario the OP describes is one of the very few where I could say that I can understand it it from all angles.

I know it from the perspective of a past DA dog owner as well as from the perspective of an owner whose dogs were socially adept.

I also understand what fear can do.

I understand it from the, often exasperated and defensive, perspective of GSD or Rotti owners whose dogs are often viewed and treated as if they were the devil incarnate...despite the fact that their, more often than not, well trained & temperamentally sound dogs haven't actually DONE anything.

I also know it from the perspective from someone whose dog WAS hit by another owner...and my reaction to this was significantly more violent than Wispy's opponent. Wanting to rip someones ball off with my bare hands is NOT my default reaction, except when someone threatens or harms my dog for no discernable reason. Other than the other owner's irrational fear that their dog MIGHT come to harm despite no indication that this would happen. Which is why I understand the other owner's behaviour.

I understand it from the perspective of those who love dogs....but who, prior to getting a dog, never really thought about that having a dog usually means HAVING to interact with a multitude of other dogs. And owners. Who may not share ones own values, concerns, fears, or views of diligent dog ownership.

It isn't an easy path to navigate. But for our dogs sake it is important that we examine and work on OUR fears before turning every outing into a mother of all stressful affair. And IMO this is what that encounter was primarily all about. The OP's dog was fine, she was fine, everyone was fine. Nobody got harmed...but the OP got scared. I TOTALLY get why she was afraid, but I also get where the other owner was coming from. Especially after interpreting that she would hit her dog.

This was the OP's second thread on how she wasn't comfortable with another dog. But not every dog is a dream playdate. Not all dogs are super friendly and polite. And as long as the other dog isn't downright aggressive, that is ok. We live on a relatively small, very densely populated island where dog ownership is prolific. I might not like it, but the other owner has as much right to walk his/her dog off leash than I do. And absolutely none to hit my dog. 

I can't speak for other countries, but there is no law, no statue, here in the UK saying that another dog has to keep a minimum distance of xy meters to another dog or that they are inherently forbidden to approach. This is often tedious, and sometimes frightening, but it still doesn't give us the right to whack another dog for no good reason.

Unless we live in in an isolated place or walk the dog at ungodly hours, we should learn to cope with other dogs without engaging in shouting matches with fellow owners or falling to pieces. It is upsetting. For everyone. Including the dogs.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Oh, balls.....

I started typing this an hour ago and then toddled off to make dinner. And then typed the rest.

Just saw that you moved on and got a clearer situation of the picture. No wait, clearer picture of the situation. Brain muddle.

Sorry, OP, I genuinly perceived that the primary issue here was YOU being uncomfortable. Seemingly not so. Just ignore prior post.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Well, again you were not at fault in this situation at all.
> 
> The whole scenario can be analysed to death by certain people, (and I don't mean you), but the bottom line is that the behaviour of the GSD was over the top and totally inappropriate and your dog was using avoidance tactics.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, that is truly wonderful advice, and thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience, its made me feel so much better and of course more confident about tackling a similar scenario with dog and owner in the future, thank you!


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> The sort of scenario the OP describes is one of the very few where I could say that I can understand it it from all angles.
> 
> I know it from the perspective of a past DA dog owner as well as from the perspective of an owner whose dogs were socially adept.
> 
> ...


The OP's dog wasn't "fine" though. It ran away, getting it's bottom on the floor so that the GSD couldn't continue to 'hump' it.

I may be over simplifying, but to me, you had the OP walking their dog, bothering nobody, the GSD comes running over, jumps on the OP's dog and begins trying to hump it. When asked to control her dog, the owner of the GSD became abusive.

I don't really think the emotions and innermost feelings of the OP are relevant.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Oh, balls.....
> 
> I started typing this an hour ago and then toddled off to make dinner. And then typed the rest.
> 
> ...


Lol no worries. I had started another thread many months ago, over a dog preventing mine from coming back to me by being too boisterous with mine. He was much younger then, had it happened now with his pack experience he would have got out of that situation easily...the one today was something altogether much more aggressive and frightening.

My dog has grown up since then and handles social situations with ease and 99 times out of 100 if I keep walking, and remind him not to lag behind when he's having a social moment with another dog, it passes without me having to raise my voice and shout at him to get on with it. As I said at the start of this thread, I received some wonderful advice which I duly took notice of and employed and both myself and pooch have brilliant walks...and mountain bike rides, some of up to 20 miles or more across the Peak district, where we encounter all kinds of things from sheep to ground nesting skylarks, and he always behaves impeccably, he is a great listener and I in turn try to listen to him as much as I can by watching his body language and mannerisms. Safe to say I have grown with him, and we love each others company 

I was uncomfortable today its true, but more so I'd never seen this stalking and lunging tactic before, and its ultimate outcome was pretty horrible to watch, had it been my dog or someone elses. In some way I felt I had let my dog down because I didn't react sooner or know what it was to know to stop it


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sweety said:


> The OP's dog wasn't "fine" though. It ran away, getting it's bottom on the floor so that the GSD couldn't continue to 'hump' it.
> 
> I may be over simplifying, but to me, you had the OP walking their dog, bothering nobody, the GSD comes running over, jumps on the OP's dog and begins trying to hump it. When asked to control her dog, the owner of the GSD became abusive.
> 
> I don't really think the emotions and innermost feelings of the OP are relevant.


I know, I know...not my brightest day today.

The point I was primarily making pertained to the umbrella which Wispy mentioned in the first post ( and due to the dinner making activities I never read the subsequent explanation and expansion).

Has one of your dogs ever been hit by someone? Not because they bit or mauled but because the owner thought they might do SOMETHING?

Mine was , for no reason, and I went so ballistic that my walking friend begged me to stop.

And I also know the stigma that MY GSD owning chums have to deal with. Their dogs often play no different to any other breed, but the other dog's owner panics.

Still, my mental picture was nowhere near accurate to what the OP actually experienced. My apologies.

However, not sure I concur with your last sentence - easily more than half of the people I know, who constantly lament about iffy dog interaction issues....their dog is perfectly fine. With all dogs. It is the owner who is scared of other dogs.

And I thought this applied to the OP. As I said, a totally missing-the-mark-day. I blame the thunder...


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

ouesi said:


> This is a bit of a goofy generalization based on nothing scientific, just my own experiences, but there are some dogs who are the type A control freaks of the doggy world, usually of some sort of herding breed. Then there are the boisterous, obnoxious, OTT adrenaline junkie dogs (usually a boxer or lab type) who didnt get the memo to bow to the superiority of the herder overlords.
> 
> I have an obnoxious adrenaline junkie and 9 times out of 10, if hes not going to get along with another dog its either a herder overlord play police dog, or its a dog exactly like him - obnoxious and OTT. And then scrappy, snarky terrier types dont bother him in the least. He walks away from that sort of challenge, but play police behavior sets him off. Go figure.
> 
> ...


Lol, I get totally where you are coming from, and its very sound advice indeed..and thinking about how my dog being a 'Doodle' reacts to situations and other dogs, he's actually pretty calm.
I have always impressed on him from the moment he set foot in our house at 9 weeks old, knowing he was going to make a big, big dog that he could never jump up at any of us, mostly my daughter who was six at the time. With his rapid growth rate I knew full well he'd very quickly be a size he could send her flying if he did jump up at her. He never jumps up at any of us, and is especially gentle with my daughter. 
He's a first gen Doodle, and apparently that delightful scatty bounciness comes along the higher the generation? I have certainly seen some mad hatter ones, but it seems to have by-passed my lad somehow.
He is giddy at times, when I first let him out the house or at the start of a walk, but I put that down to age and pent up energy. When he 'works' with me, acting as my bodyguard while I'm mountain biking, his persona changes and he is very studiously 'on the job' till I stop and he can have a little rest and mooch about.

He's good with other dogs, little ones too as I'll say the exact same thing I used to while he was younger and we were training him he couldn't jump up at my daughter, and he'll listen and approach with a lot of careful restraint. If the little dog makes the motion it wants to zoom about and play, then all the better and I'll let him go for it for a minute or so...if the little dog still seems cowed by his size, then he's already been in a calm state so the little one can keep on going without having a big black mutt in its face and the whole thing is much more pleasant.

There are some dogs that pass us, they don't even look his way or mine, maybe they are the ones that don't 'mesh' with his type? It nearly always happens they pass each other and nothing happens, not a sniff ear twitch...nothing. The odd ones every now and again have a bit of a stand on tip toes with tails straight up moment, but they pass without incident too, so pretty much all the time I'm very relaxed on walks with him. I keep an eye on him and make sure he's behaving, but usually we are always moving and nothing negative happens


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I know, I know...not my brightest day today.
> 
> The point I was primarily making pertained to the umbrella which Wispy mentioned in the first post ( and due to the dinner making activities I never read the subsequent explanation and expansion).
> 
> ...


So you are influenced by your own defensiveness against your breed.

From what was described in the first post, I don't care what breed it was, but I would not stand by and let one of my dogs be subjected to such rude behaviour.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Wispy said:


> That is a good point, my dog has never had problems previously with German Shepherds, I'm not sure why the one today took such offence to my dog


The GSDs we know aren't too keen on my dog. They all tend to be the fun police and will tell him off for chasing a ball, playing with another dog or basically anything he finds fun. Doesn't matter whether he's bothering them or not. I tend to avoid them for the most part. One isn't too bad, his owner is on the ball and keeps him engaged with his toy while Spen plays but if her attention wanders he'll tell Spen off.

We have the same problem with the one collie we know. I think as Ouesi says, it's just two incompatible types of dog. Spen would fit the obnoxious adrenaline junkie type and these GSDs and collie that we know (not necessarily ALL of those breeds) are the control freaks lol.


----------



## Guest (Jul 19, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> However, not sure I concur with your last sentence - easily more than half of the people I know, who constantly lament about iffy dog interaction issues....their dog is perfectly fine. With all dogs. It is the owner who is scared of other dogs.
> 
> ...


I cant speak for other dog owners, but as one of those owners who doesnt allow interactions at all with dogs I don't know, it has nothing to do with fear or stigma, and everything to do with wanting to be responsible and an advocate for dog ownership in general. It's just not cool to let your dog be a bother or leave your dog to sort stuff out. I would much rather my dog completely ignore other dogs and avoid any sort of interactions period.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> So you are influenced by your own defensiveness against your breed.
> 
> From what was described in the first post, I don't care what breed it was, but I would not stand by and let one of my dogs be subjected to such rude behaviour.


Fair enough.

I don't understand the first sentence, though. I haven't got GSD's. But I know what their owners often have to put up with. Not pretty and not fair.

"Rude" behaviour? We are not talking about Harrow boarding school pupils. They are dogs. Some more socially adept than others. And, arguably, unless they interact and ANOTHER dog communicates "Mate, this behaviour doesn't fly" they will remain socially inept.

Unless you believe that a human can teach a dog interspecies interaction skills.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I don't understand the first sentence, though. I haven't got GSD's. But I know what their owners often have to put up with. Not pretty and not fair.
> 
> ...


I call it 'rude' because it's a label I put on it  not for any other reason. You are right some are more socially adept than others and that in itself creates the problem. I have a number of dogs, they are brought up and live with other dogs and also mix with many others -they are very adept at reading body language and communicating it. Unfortunately, many other dogs aren't - and even fewer owners are aware of their dog's inability to read and interact. It is not uncommon for my dogs to find they need to tell other dogs off - while I respect their reasons it is not a behaviour I wish them to practice so I will do my best to avoid them being in such positions. 
And I would step in pretty swiftly - I don't care about an owner's sensibilities that their dog 'only wanted to play', or their type of 'play' was far rougher than my dogs like, and I don't care what breed it is or whether the owner has some sensitivity because of the breed they own.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I call it 'rude' because it's a label I put on it  not for any other reason. You are right some are more socially adept than others and that in itself creates the problem. I have a number of dogs, they are brought up and live with other dogs and also mix with many others -they are very adept at reading body language and communicating it. Unfortunately, many other dogs aren't - and even fewer owners are aware of their dog's inability to read and interact. It is not uncommon for my dogs to find they need to tell other dogs off - while I respect their reasons it is not a behaviour I wish them to practice so I will do my best to avoid them being in such positions.
> And I would step in pretty swiftly - I don't care about an owner's sensibilities that their dog 'only wanted to play', or their type of 'play' was far rougher than my dogs like, and I don't care what breed it is or whether the owner has some sensitivity because of the breed they own.


I understand. And I largely agree. Plus, in any event, my interpretation of the OP's experience was a total cluster***k 

As for my own dogs ....I did my utmost that their doggy interactions were mutually agreeable. But if another dog told them as pups or young dogs to get lost, that was fine, too. Where are they going to learn to correctly interpret irritation, annoyance or "just don't talk to me" signals if not from another dog? And if not when they are young and trying to figure all this out, when?

Whilst ALL dogs need this, the ones who likely need it most are guard dog breeds. And Staffies. How are they going to become decently behaved adults if nobody lets their dog play with them because they play too rough? They need to get a few good clouts from another self confident, mature, but nice tempered dog telling them what's what. And yes, I know, some dogs will always have iffy interaction skills. But we ought to try...

This doesn't mean we have to let them indiscriminately ABUSE other dogs as "learning tools". Most people, at least around here, are sensitive enough to step in if they see that either dog or owner aren't comfortable with the interaction. And the others need a refresher course that people can get shirty if their dog is pounced on. Even so, I vehemently disagree that hitting another dog is ever acceptable unless as a last resort.

But how often have you read here "OMG!!! My dog was attacked today!!". More often than not the dog didn't sustain a single scratch and yet the owner was hysterical, ranting on and on about the misfortune that their dog would likely be traumatized for life because a dog was a bit unfriendly.

Who knows what went on in Wispy's opponents head. Maybe her reaction was defensive, maybe she misinterpreted her dog or maybe she was a socially inept nutter. Given my interpretation skills of today, I leave others to conclude this.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I understand. And I largely agree. Plus, in any event, my interpretation of the OP's experience was a total cluster***k
> 
> As for my own dogs ....I did my utmost that their doggy interactions were mutually agreeable. But if another dog told them as pups or young dogs to get lost, that was fine, too. Where are they going to learn to correctly interpret irritation, annoyance or "just don't talk to me" signals if not from another dog? And if not when they are young and trying to figure all this out, when?
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this bit - we do need to be able to differentiate between handbags and posturing and a real attack / fight. In an ideal world of course no one would need to, however realistically most owners are likely to encounter handbags type displays. Big noisy displays make me feel more comfortable than a dog / dogs silently speeding over with less than friendly body language. The Rottie, the black lab and the Staffie that attacked Kilo in separate incidents offered just a growl and the rest was silent on their part. Only scratches were sustained from the first two attacks - although I kicked the rottie off as he was more intent on damage than the lab - and serious injuries were inflicted by the staffy. The only noise was the sound of my dog screaming in each of these incidents.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I understand. And I largely agree. Plus, in any event, my interpretation of the OP's experience was a total cluster***k
> 
> As for my own dogs ....I did my utmost that their doggy interactions were mutually agreeable. But if another dog told them as pups or young dogs to get lost, that was fine, too. Where are they going to learn to correctly interpret irritation, annoyance or "just don't talk to me" signals if not from another dog? And if not when they are young and trying to figure all this out, when?
> 
> ...


I agree with what you say, I make every effort to properly socialize my dog properly, and I totally bear in mind he is intimidating to look at. He's clipped at the moment, but usually he is quite shaggy, not the cute curly doodle look, more scruffy Wolfhound type messy coat.

Although my dog absolutely totally and utterly adores kids, when I walk him to school with my little girl and other mothers grab their kids or kids start shrieking and trying to get behind their mums legs, I move him to the other side of me, and all the while keep him on a much, much shorter leash. I do bear in mind his appearance and am never so ignorant to others visual stimulation of 'omg its a massive black dog its bound to eat my child and mow me down in the process'. I just wish some other dog owners were more socially aware, I have seen dogs allowed to wander up to kids and small dogs with the owner either not giving a ****, or telling the dog 'now please don't do that' in a voice a mouse would laugh at. I shout at my dog, and he knows full well by the tone of my voice if I'm fooling about, or being deadly serious.

I'm armed more ably after the advice I received from the lovely members here yesterday and from one of the guys who works at the doggie daycare place with my dog, and now know that the stalking and pouncing thing is not a good behavior, and I need to act with my dog to stop a repeat performance of yesterday.

My dog despite his size isn't hugely dominant, and probably the fact he began to run flicked some sort of switch in the other dogs head and it took a more serious turn. My dog didn't like it and his whole demeanor was panic stricken by the end of the encounter.

There are four Newfoundlands that belong to the owner of the Doggie daycare place, who are extremely adept at sorting the wheat from the chaff in behavioral terms, they are much older than my dog and have seen it all before with literally hundreds of dogs. My dog runs with them at least once a week, sometimes twice a week if I'm not able to be with my dog over a certain amount of time.
As much as my dog is learning, so am I, which is why I first came here...and you'll notice that after my initial contact, I never came back. I took on board and put into practice what was shared and have had much success and lots of subsequent rewarding ownership with my dog, thus I never felt the need to come back whinging or whining about boisterous dogs. Its all part of it, and I have to do my part and act accordingly with my dog to ensure these incidents are kept on a 'low light' and never allowed to ignite into full on confrontations. 
Its a shame I can't borrow one of the Newfoundlands to act as a bodyguard and tutor to less well mannered dogs we occasionally encounter, and there have been a few, but I have been able to sort those situations out with little fuss...yesterdays however was a totally different kettle of fish.

Other confrontations we have had have been minimal, and after the one I originally posted about (I think the other dog was an Otterhound, or something like that and certainly of a size approaching a Newfoundland) my dog was a wreck for a while, had no confidence and shied away from other dogs. He's come out of it, and when we come across other dogs now, I don't automatically go into 'oh ****' mode, rather I wait and see read whats going on, and if it looks a bit suspect, usually call my dog to me and start to jog past the other, my dog naturally comes straight in when I do that..wether running or biking, he see's it as his 'job' to keep to heel and stay with me, so we skim past the other dog quickly and neither of them get too worked up and the incidents have been very, very few and far between.

Hopefully now I have insight from more experienced owners, I can spot a dog, whatever size or breed doing that stalking pounce thing again, and know exactly what to do about it to stop it becoming a horrible situation.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Dogless said:


> I have to agree with this bit - we do need to be able to differentiate between handbags and posturing and a real attack / fight. In an ideal world of course no one would need to, however realistically most owners are likely to encounter handbags type displays. Big noisy displays make me feel more comfortable than a dog / dogs silently speeding over with less than friendly body language. The Rottie, the black lab and the Staffie that attacked Kilo in separate incidents offered just a growl and the rest was silent on their part. Only scratches were sustained from the first two attacks - although I kicked the rottie off as he was more intent on damage than the lab - and serious injuries were inflicted by the staffy. The only noise was the sound of my dog screaming in each of these incidents.


I can't answer more fully, me and pooch are out shortly.....but yes, it was the silence of the other dog that was alarming, barking yappy play I recognize and it actually makes me laugh when two dogs start goofing about.
The silence and intent was very worrying, and now I know it wasn't a play tactic by the other dog I'd never seen before, and something altogether much less friendly, I'll know what to do next time


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Wispy said:


> I can't answer more fully, me and pooch are out shortly.....but yes, it was the silence of the other dog that was alarming, barking yappy play I recognize and it actually makes me laugh when two dogs start goofing about.
> The silence and intent was very worrying, and now I know it wasn't a play tactic by the other dog I'd never seen before, and something altogether much less friendly, I'll know what to do next time


I wasn't so much on about play - I mean the posturing and handbags that can sometimes occur; loads of teeth and awful sounding noisebut no damage rather than play.

My dogs both stalk each other in play but I will not allow it with unknown dogs - Kilo also stalks then lies down when unsure but will not pounceit can be very "I'm not here" with him too.

It is all so complex really as different breeds and individual dogs will obviously have varying parts of the predatory sequence intact and with varying intensities.


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I don't understand the first sentence, though. I haven't got GSD's. But I know what their owners often have to put up with. Not pretty and not fair.
> 
> ...


I agree that the best way for a dog to learn proper behavior is from other dog.

Unfortunately, other dogs are also the best way for a dog to learn INappropriate behavior.

That is why I am ridiculously picky about who my dogs interact with. The only dogs I want them learning anything from are dogs who behave appropriately and who have owners who can effectively intervene when the interactions veer in to the inappropriate territory.

Good example: My friend rescued a terrier mix who was very unsure with big dogs. She needed to learn to let other dogs know when she was feeling overwhelmed, but we wanted her to learn appropriate warnings, not OTT snarking that might escalate something in to an actual fight.

At the time I had our male great dane who was just about as perfect in doggy interactions as you could get. Initially he completely ignored her which was exactly what she needed. When she got up the nerve to sniff him, he gently sniffed back, she cowered, he sent her calming signals and went back to ignoring her. He was perfect for teaching her that her signals would be heard, and she gained a lot of confidence just by hanging out with him.

Once her confidence grew, we introduced my obnoxious dog, who sure enough, went in for the sniff and didnt heed her signs of discomfort. However, *we* did, and called him away every time she asked him to back off and he didnt. She was learning that her signals would be heard, so her confidence continued to grow to the point that she felt comfortable correcting my dog when he didnt listen. I know my dog and I know he will graciously take a correction from a bitch (which he did). Seeing that her corrections worked was the icing on the cake for her dog skills lesson, and now she is comfortable in pretty much any doggy situation.

I think this little terrier mix could have had a very different outcome had her introductions to big dogs not been very carefully selected and monitored. 
Not all dogs are going to be compatible, and not all dogs are good teachers (or are going to teach something you want your dog to learn).

This is one of my favorite articles on teaching dogs appropriate play (and interactions in general).
Bonnie the Bull Terrier and Porter the Pitbull: Dog Park Pals or Not? | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Yes, there's a hell of a difference between the scary looking and sounding scuffles dogs sometimes have between themselves and a genuine attack. But one dog rushing another and having a go at it, even without intent to cause physical harm, can still very easily leave a less confident dog or puppy traumatised. Especially if it happens a number of times. So damn right I'd be fuming if it happened to mine. I've no objection to my dog being told off for inappropriate behaviour or another dog simply telling him it doesn't want to interact. But way too many bully boy types are allowed to rush up and have a go at other dogs who are minding their own business. They may not be intent on causing physical damage, in all honesty many of them simply seem to get a kick out of behaving that way, but it doesn't prevent them causing psychological damage.

I've got to admit the over dramatising of handbag type incidents annoys me no end though. Your dog was neither viciously attacked nor mauled if it got into an argument with another dog. Not even if it sustains a minor injury. I can't help thinking that it's no wonder the police won't do anything about dog on dog attacks when people are so over dramatic about interactions. And in many cases so unwilling to see that their own dog was not the innocent victim they seem to think it was. Yes, there are real attacks. Yes, they can happen suddenly and so fast you can do nothing about them. But the majority of dog on dog incidents are noise and show and injuries are non existent or very minor such as a nicked ear or a scratch from a canine tooth.

That said, I'm not sure you can base the severity or intent of an attack purely on the injuries caused. Size differences, luck, owner reactions and other factors play their part.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I agree that the best way for a dog to learn proper behavior is from other dog.
> 
> Unfortunately, other dogs are also the best way for a dog to learn INappropriate behavior.
> 
> ...


There is no doubt that this was the optimal method for your friend's terrier.

And that it is necessary to be discerning rather than completely indiscriminate.

Nonetheless, being THIS discerning also depends to a large extent on where one lives, i.e how many dogs one routinely encounters on a daily walk. For some of us, in fact for many of us in Europe, this means dozens. It is a matter of population density.

Assuming the dog encounters dozens of initially unknown others on a daily basis....what is the best way to raise this dog to become a socially competent adult? What associations is this dog forming if the owner habitually shoos off any dog they don't know to minimise the risk that the pup could learn something inappropriate and have a negative experience? Equally, what associations is this dog forming from negative dog encounters?

The whole thing boils down to a risk-benefit calculation. Something every owner has to work out for themselves given THEIR specific circumstances and the disposition of THEIR dog. There is no blanket "THIS is the best/only way how a dog should meet another"

From my observation, the overwhelming majority of truly deleterious dog interaction scenarios are those over which the owner had little to no control over, anyway. They often come out of the blue. A strange unaccompanied dog flying over to have a go, a dog shooting out of an open gate, etc. Short of no longer walking the dog , indefinitely confining it to the leash, or making majorly time consuming detours to walk him somewhere without other dogs, what is the owner to do? Other than to become a nervous wreck from either fearing other dogs, fearing lack of sufficient socialisation, or fearing both. Being or becoming a perpetual bundle of fear and concern isn't what dog ownership SHOULD be about. But for many, it is.

The one thing I do know for certain: for every dog I know who, due to its inherent disposition, doesn't get on with other dogs, there is one who is now perpetually stuck on a leash because they were never allowed to learn canine rules of conduct.

The sole reason for that is because their owners were afraid. There is a difference between prudent vigilance and "bubble wrap helicopter parenting". Fair amount of the latter owners these days. No, those dogs never had to deal with the temporary fear from being told off by another, they never learned that not all others are friendly and that some dogs are best given a wide berth. I feel for those dogs. They are neither fish nor fowl. They don't understand or speak the language of their own kind. Which is sad. Arguably, also unfair to the dog.

Many dogs have an exeptionally safe life, mostly devoid of any potential dangers. I am not convinced that those dogs necessarily have a great life. But perceptions vary. Risk-benefit perception is an individual thing.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Wispy said:


> .the dog hunkers down, staring intently at my dog,


I think this would of been the point at which I would be making detours, leashing mine and trying to avoid a meeting! Any kind of intensity when greeting a strange dog isnt good IMO.
Sadly my lot have been chased and had there 'back off' signals ignored one too many times to be anything other then wary of other dogs. Although I will say that GSD tend to be one of the breeds who generally seem to greet little dogs well (Adam is nuts for them and always wants to say hello! I can remember one time watching an owner with an off lead GSD that Adam desperately wanted to meet. He positioned himself in its eyeline, but still far away, and did his very best to get a positive response...sadly it only wanted to be with its owner so ignored him and he came away a very crestfallen little Chihuahua. But I was so proud of how politely he had 'asked' to meet!)

I dont blame the OP for getting annoyed re the umbrella incident though. Ive had a similar thing happen to me when I shook my leads at a Standard Poodle to shoo it away. The owner went ballistic, accusing me of trying to hit their dog. Somehow they saw this act of animal cruelty on my part but hadnt seen my dogs repeatedly running and yelping as this giant dog kept running them down and slamming its paws down narrowly missing them. The owner had also failed to see me right in front of them trying to hurry away, calling my dogs, telling his to push off and shouting at it to go away!


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> There is no doubt that this was the optimal method for your friend's terrier.
> 
> And that it is necessary to be discerning rather than completely indiscriminate.
> 
> Nonetheless, being THIS discerning also depends to a large extent on where one lives, i.e how many dogs one routinely encounters on a daily walk. For some of us, in fact for many of us in Europe, this means dozens. It is a matter of population density.


Not always. We invariably meet at least 2 often more loose dogs on our daily walks. 9 times out of 10 these dogs are without owners, either strays or owned dogs who are allowed to roam. I have no desire for my dogs to interact with these dogs for oodles of reasons, not the least of which is parasites and disease, let alone behavioral reasons.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Assuming the dog encounters dozens of initially unknown others on a daily basis....*what is the best way to raise this dog to become a socially competent adult?* What associations is this dog forming if the owner habitually shoos off any dog they don't know to minimise the risk that the pup could learn something inappropriate and have a negative experience? Equally, what associations is this dog forming from negative dog encounters?


In my opinion the most socially competent dogs are those that are dog NEUTRAL. 
In addition to the loose dogs, we also walk by 3 sets of dogs who are tied up in an unfenced yard, as well as several fenced dogs. All go ballistic when they see us, every single day. My dogs reaction is to completely ignore these dogs. Yes, it took a good bit of training, but this is exactly what I set out for with all my dogs, I want their reaction to seeing another dog to be one of total neutrality. That they are not interested either way.

This idea is not unique to me, many dog professionals including Kay Laurence and Sue Sternberg advocate this approach. 
What I have found by encouraging my dogs to be dog neutral is that when they are allowed to interact, their interactions are far more appropriate and manageable and enjoyable for both dogs and owners than in the past when I was all about making sure my dogs got to interact with every and any dog. And more importantly, because my dogs are dog neutral, I can take them anywhere and everywhere and they can enjoy themselves in all sorts of contexts without being overwhelmed or overstimulated.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

But the majority of dogs become "dog neutral" simply as a result of sufficient exposure, via aquiring a knowledge bank of both good and bad interactions and from reaching adult maturity.

What I am saying is, I am not convinced that this process requires active human training or involvement. It is something most dogs seem to be able to figure out for themselves or teach each other.

Doesn't matter which way one shakes it - I question whether a human can teach a dog how to be or become a well rounded, socially competent dog. A dog learns more, or more species appropriate, intraspecies interaction behaviour - be that from a snap, growl or a play session- than from anything we could convey.


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

All I know to say HATEOTT is that your experiences and mine differ. It is not my experience at all that all it takes is sufficient exposure to teach a dog neutrality. Certainly not with the dogs I have dealt with.

Read the article I posted above about Bonnie and Porter. These dogs would not have learned appropriate behavior without human intervention. My own dogs would not have learned dog neutrality even with over-aroused dogs had I not purposefully taught them with counter conditioning.

And dont forget how much of a role inherent personality and temperament play. A timid dog is just going to get far worse if left to fend for himself and figure things out, such a dog would absolutely need the support and intervention of an adept owner otherwise I can see that dog turning in to a mess. Likewise with the adrenaline junkies of the dog world. If an adrenaline junkie gets off on the thrill of a fight, you end up with a dog who will actively seek out more fights, no way would you allow that sort of thing to figure itself out. You have to intervene. 

Your run-of-the-mill dog temperament sure, they might be okay with a more laissez faire attitude, but as long as we humans breed specialized temperaments for specific jobs, we will have to manage those temperaments for the sake of both those dogs and any other dog they encounter.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

I concur...our experiences and conclusions differ.

Of course a dog with behavioural issues requires appropriate interventions and a management strategy. One of mine was DA and out of respect for other dogs and their owners this had to be addressed and interactions either closely guided and supervised or avoided.

But the overwhelming majority of dogs don't have inherent behavioural issues and are capable and competent enough to teach each other. Moreover, there is an argument to be made that a great many wouldn't have developed behavioural issues in the first place, if the anxious owner hadn't interfered so darn much. 

I know more than one dog who was never allowed to be exposed to a well deserved snap or being put in place on account of the owners anxiety and this did the dog no favour whatsoever. The timid pup never got less timid, the overly boistourous dog never learned to play gentler, and the annoying dog never learned to be less annoying. How could they?

There is no doubt that it IS tricky and a balancing act. But most dogs don't need behavioural experts just owners with common sense and some courage.Luckily, a great many dogs have just that. Owners who don't interfere until there is a good reason to interfere.

To be clear, this isn't a clandestine dig at you or anyone else who chooses to handle their dog interactions differently. If my dogs, or any dog I know, would have been routinely set upon, or didn't learn from other dogs, I'd likely view it differently. But, in general, I believe humans tend to interfere too much instead of too little. Just as humans can have a blazing row, so can dogs. Whether it is wise to invariably try to guide and diffuse this is a matter of debate. 

But maybe you are correct - perhaps, probably due to our lack of leash laws, the average dog isn't a bully or neurotically timid. Owners generally don't let a boisterous dog intimidate an unsure, nervous one. Or allow their dog to torment and pester another. That's just falls under the remit of normal civilized behaviour, consideration and common sense.


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I concur...our experiences and conclusions differ.
> 
> Of course a dog with behavioural issues requires appropriate interventions and a management strategy. One of mine was DA and out of respect for other dogs and their owners this had to be addressed and interactions either closely guided and supervised or avoided.
> 
> But the overwhelming majority of dogs don't have inherent behavioural issues and are capable and competent enough to teach each other. *Moreover, there is an argument to be made that a great many wouldn't have developed behavioural issues in the first place, if the anxious owner hadn't interfered so darn much.*


I think we need to be careful with statements like the bolded. I know what you mean, but on the other hand, I also know plenty of owners who did absolutely everything right and still ended up with a nervy mess. I also know a ton of dogs who's owners are about as inept as you can get and the dogs are awesome despite the owner's blunders. Behavior and temperament is always a complex mix of nature and nurture, and blaming owners for the dog they have now is not very helpful, nor always fair.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I know more than one dog who was never allowed to be exposed to a well deserved snap or being put in place on account of the owners anxiety and this did the dog no favour whatsoever. The timid pup never got less timid, the overly boistourous dog never learned to play gentler, and the annoying dog never learned to be less annoying. How could they?


Again, you have to account for inherent temperament too. Bates is a dog who is constantly getting corrected for being an OTT, obnoxious, PITA. And do you know what? Even with constant, appropriate, well enforced corrections, he is still (and IMO always will be) and OTT, obnoxious, PITA. That's who he is. This is the dog who got his face bashed in by a horse's hoof and still continued to chase horses. The dog who impaled himself running through the woods at MACH 5 and who continues to do that too. He's not one to learn via self-preservation.

I can manage his obnoxiousness, dogs learn to deal with him, he learns to control his arousal, but he's never going to be a good playmate for timid dogs, or equally obnoxious dogs, or all sorts of different personalities. And even with dogs who do handle him well, it should not be solely up to them to keep him in check. I'm going to step in when the other dog has had enough and my own dog is not getting the message.
He HAS learned to be more gentle and less obnoxious, but his level of more gentle and less obnoxious is still a bull in a china shop. He's just at level 6 now instead of level 12.



Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But maybe you are correct - perhaps, probably due to our lack of leash laws, the average dog isn't a bully or neurotically timid. *Owners generally don't let a boisterous dog intimidate an unsure, nervous one. Or allow their dog to torment and pester another.* That's just falls under the remit of normal civilized behaviour, consideration and common sense.


 Not from what I read on here!

BTW, I keep replying not to try to prove one of us right or wrong, but because I find this an important conversation (and because I'm using PF to enable my procrastination of house chores. The laundry can wait )


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But maybe you are correct - perhaps, probably due to our lack of leash laws, the average dog isn't a bully or neurotically timid. Owners generally don't let a boisterous dog intimidate an unsure, nervous one. Or allow their dog to torment and pester another. That's just falls under the remit of normal civilized behaviour, consideration and common sense.


We must come across some very, very different owners then. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to stop someone elses dog from pestering mine or trying to antagonise him. The owners don't even seem to realise it's a problem. Until mine tells theirs in no uncertain terms that their behaviour is unacceptable anyway, and then it's not their dog with the problem but mine who is clearly vicious.

Even sadder are those with nervous or timid dogs who deliberately expose them to dogs who behave in a way that frightens them because they feel they need to "man up and learn to deal with it" :crying:


----------



## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Wispy said:


> The chap I spoke to at my dogs daycare place said the same thing as you, that chase games are never allowed, the only thing they are allowed to chase is a ball, then the pack as a whole runs after it, if one dog is caught 'stalking' and lunging at another or other dogs, then they pull it out of the field and it goes in the 'sin bin' purely for the reason that some dogs are lower in the pack, and will be easily threatened and intimidated by this sort of thing. If the dog carries on doing it, its stopped from coming until the owner sorts it out as they don't want the pack disrupted by aggressive and dominating behavior


Well we might say the same thing, but for completely different reasons. We allow all other breeds to play chase (except border collies for a similar reason), as long as it doesn't cause any problems. We had a Cocker Spaniel we allowed to chase one of the younger dogs we were walking, and he shortly after started running up to other dogs barking. He was barking while chasing in play too, so we stopped the chasing of our dogs and he stopped the other behaviour too.

We've also recently discovered it's too much for a Wheaten Terrier as well, so she's been stopped chasing in play. You can see her on this video - 



 last but one dog. Tinker had to start giving out loads of signals to try to calm her down - I stopped the chase then and she's not allowed to anymore as she gets too OTT. I don't want her doing that to any other dogs. In about a year when she's two we might let her try again!


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Behavior and temperament is always a complex mix of nature and nurture, and blaming owners for the dog they have now is not very helpful, nor always fair.


Me insinuating that every owner dealing with a DA or behaviourally challenged dog is to blame is not at all what I meant.

I guess I have great faith in the intelligence of the reader to not extrapolate and not to perceive slight where none was intended.

And I realise that with rescue dogs, or dogs from parents with a questional temperament, it becomes a whole other ballgame. That is a valid point.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> We must come across some very, very different owners then. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to stop someone elses dog from pestering mine or trying to antagonise him. *The owners don't even seem to realise it's a problem. Until mine tells theirs in no uncertain terms that their behaviour is unacceptable anyway, and then it's not their dog with the problem but mine who is clearly vicious.*
> 
> Even sadder are those with nervous or timid dogs who deliberately expose them to dogs who behave in a way that frightens them because they feel they need to "man up and learn to deal with it" :crying:


But that, in a roundabout way, brings us back to the OP.

What is, or isn't, deemed a problem largely depends on the perceptions of the owners involved.

You say we must know different owners? You are right. A situation how you describe happens here all the time ( And I am going under the assumption that BOTH dogs were off leash as it is never ok for a unleashed dog to interfere with a leashed one).

I cannot think of anyone who would have a problem that their dog gets snapped or growled at if their dog initiated the contact. Why would they? It isn't a secret or rarity that not all dogs are sociable. The next time their dog knows what the consequences are.

But just to say...noting your location...we have just returned from Germany (Bavaria). I have seen off leash dogs en masse, I walked with a friend and her dogs meeting a great many dogs, and not once did I observe hostility between owners if one dog showed demonstrably that it wanted to be left alone.

It just isn't an issue for most owners. Sometimes dogs get along and sometimes they don't. As long as they don't hurt each other, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

I have to say, reading what you guys are saying is actually really invaluable. I'm getting more insight and education, on lots of other aspects of dog handling and body language, not just the original one I posted about :thumbup:

Thank you for your support, I'm glad I came and asked advice


----------



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> It just isn't an issue for most owners. Sometimes dogs get along and sometimes they don't. As long as they don't hurt each other, it doesn't matter.


But in the case of the OP, both owners blame each other. My dog (5 month old BC) was off lead, and another dog off lead came very agressivly and bit her.
It did matter to me, but the owner appologised and my dog seemed ok with it, so all was ok.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But that, in a roundabout way, brings us back to the OP.
> 
> What is, or isn't, deemed a problem largely depends on the perceptions of the owners involved.
> 
> ...


But it isn't always about physical hurt. Each time Kilo has been approached and jumped on by dogs since his attack our progress and his confidence has gone back a long, long way. It is really frustrating and upsetting.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> But that, in a roundabout way, brings us back to the OP.
> 
> What is, or isn't, deemed a problem largely depends on the perceptions of the owners involved.
> 
> ...


I have never had any hostility from a German dog owner so far, not even when there's been handbags between my dog and theirs. The Brits however are another matter. Someone told me they fear for their dogs safety around Spencer as he is so very dominant, he's never so much as looked at her dogs wrong! And there have been rumours spread that people shouldn't let their dogs near him as he's aggressive. He's neither dominant nor aggressive, he simply will not allow another dog to bully him. But because he will roar and snap at dogs who push him too far and don't heed his earlier warnings he's seen by people as aggressive. Do I think he's behaving inappropriately? No, I don't. However, I do try to step in before it reaches that point because I don't think it's fair on him to be constantly pushed and pushed until he finally snaps. Nor do I know how the dog is going to react to him telling it off, some will react with aggression. And it's not me or my dogs job to teach random dogs manners at the end of the day.

I had the same with my collie, he got labelled vicious because he simply would not tolerate bad manners or bullying. If a dog jumped all over him or humped him and didn't heed his glares and growls he'd escalate to a roar and a snap and then we had snide comments about how vicious dogs shouldn't be out in public 

And to be honest, I disagree that it's all okay as long as nobody gets hurt. There are behaviours I don't want my dog practising, there are things I don't want other dogs doing to him that may not hurt him but make him uncomfortable. Nor do I want him learning that to be heard he needs to snap and snarl so I step in if I see another dog is clearly pushing his buttons. If that makes me an over protective owner then so be it.


----------



## Guest (Jul 20, 2014)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I cannot think of anyone who would have a problem that their dog gets snapped or growled at if their dog initiated the contact. Why would they? It isn't a secret or rarity that not all dogs are sociable. The next time their dog knows what the consequences are.


Oh geez, I sure can! 
Plenty of people object to my dogs giving their dogs appropriate corrections. I think it probably has to do with the fact that my dogs are larger than most, but not always. 
Typical scenario: Puppy runs up to my dog and gloms on to his face like a furry, licking, nibbling, octopus. My dog froze, gave the pup ample time to detach himself, and when he didnt, roars at him and sent the pup piddling and squealing away. No teeth involved, fair warning, totally normal and appropriate correction, and the puppy had a totally normal puppyish pee and cry. Bounced back up sulked a few moments, and then was fine. The owner was horrified at my dog's behavior.
Another scenario: small dog has to jump up on my dogs rear legs to shove his nose up my dogs bum. My dog responds by whipping around and growling at the offending dog. Owner asks what my dogs issue is.
One more scenario: dog runs up to mine uninvited and slams in to my dog's shoulder. My dog flattens the offending dog and stands over him air snapping. Owner cant understand why my dog is being mean to her dog who just wanted to play.

I could go on, but I wont because Ill just get annoyed remember these situations


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Folks, I invite you to move to Devon. 

Non-iffy owners and dogs and 396 sq miles of off-leash dog heaven. And that's just Dartmoor.

On the other hand, if you could tell me where you live, I'll be sure to avoid ever going there because your resident fellow dog owners, objecting to a justified telling off for their dogs, seem rather cuckoo.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Folks, I invite you to move to Devon.
> 
> Non-iffy owners and dogs and 396 sq miles of off-leash dog heaven. And that's just Dartmoor.
> 
> On the other hand, if you could tell me where you live, I'll be sure to avoid ever going there because your resident fellow dog owners, objecting to a justified telling off for their dogs, seem rather cuckoo.


I'd quite like to move to the Peak District, as long as your dog is under control and on a leash in lambing season then its an ace place to be with a dog. Other dogs seem well behaved and respectful of each others space, and other owners seem very down to earth and level headed. Where I live at the moment is a bloody nightmare :mad2: and not just the dog owners.


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Folks, I invite you to move to Devon.
> 
> Non-iffy owners and dogs and 396 sq miles of off-leash dog heaven. And that's just Dartmoor.
> 
> On the other hand, if you could tell me where you live, I'll be sure to avoid ever going there because your resident fellow dog owners, objecting to a justified telling off for their dogs, seem rather cuckoo.


I had a holiday on Dartmoor; we had a lovely experience with other dogs and their owners actually. Where I live now is a nightmare.however we move tomorrow :thumbup:.


----------



## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogless said:


> I had a holiday on Dartmoor; we had a lovely experience with other dogs and their owners actually. Where I live now is a nightmare.however we move tomorrow :thumbup:.


To Devon?

Tomorrow?

Blimey, my post WAS persuasive!


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> To Devon?
> 
> Tomorrow?
> 
> Blimey, my post WAS persuasive!


Not Devon but away from this sh!thole .

TBH "my" forests and mountains I will very much miss but my immediate surroundings I cannot wait to be shot of!!


----------



## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> The owners don't even seem to realise it's a problem. Until mine tells theirs in no uncertain terms that their behaviour is unacceptable anyway, and then it's not their dog with the problem but mine who is clearly vicious.
> .


I have also experienced it the other way round recently - the owners telling their dog off for giving a reasonable correction to my rude dog, then they look at me as if I have 3 heads when I wave away their apology and point out that it was my dog in the wrong...


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Fubrite said:


> I have also experienced it the other way round recently - the owners telling their dog off for giving a reasonable correction to my rude dog, then they look at me as if I have 3 heads when I wave away their apology and point out that it was my dog in the wrong...


Yup, I've had that too. They're utterly horrified that their dog has "been nasty" (their words, not mine) towards mine.


----------



## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I have never had any hostility from a German dog owner so far, not even when there's been handbags between my dog and theirs. The Brits however are another matter. Someone told me they fear for their dogs safety around Spencer as he is so very dominant, he's never so much as looked at her dogs wrong! And there have been rumours spread that people shouldn't let their dogs near him as he's aggressive. He's neither dominant nor aggressive, he simply will not allow another dog to bully him. But because he will roar and snap at dogs who push him too far and don't heed his earlier warnings he's seen by people as aggressive. Do I think he's behaving inappropriately? No, I don't. However, I do try to step in before it reaches that point because I don't think it's fair on him to be constantly pushed and pushed until he finally snaps. Nor do I know how the dog is going to react to him telling it off, some will react with aggression. And it's not me or my dogs job to teach random dogs manners at the end of the day.
> 
> I had the same with my collie, he got labelled vicious because he simply would not tolerate bad manners or bullying. If a dog jumped all over him or humped him and didn't heed his glares and growls he'd escalate to a roar and a snap and then we had snide comments about how vicious dogs shouldn't be out in public
> 
> And to be honest, I disagree that it's all okay as long as nobody gets hurt. There are behaviours I don't want my dog practising, there are things I don't want other dogs doing to him that may not hurt him but make him uncomfortable. Nor do I want him learning that to be heard he needs to snap and snarl so I step in if I see another dog is clearly pushing his buttons. If that makes me an over protective owner then so be it.


There's a couple who live near me who have tried to spread the word that Angus is vicious as he's had handbags with their dog a couple of times (2 entire males the same age when there are often in-season bitches around), the scuffles are usually started by their dog but Angus doesn't help by wanting to go and see his former playmate. As far as has been reported back to me, the universal response has been along the lines of "no he isn't, he plays really nicely with my dog/the elderly dog that's unsure of other dogs/the little puppy along the road/the 3 little dogs round the corner"

Angus does get misunderstood by a lot of owners and some other dogs - his crouch and stare is not an aggressive signal - it's his default instinctive behaviour on seeing something. And he does love a good game of chase - as long as he's being chased rather than chasing He goes off at top speed when his lurcher pals are chasing him and rather slower if it's the Chihuahua and Yorkie so they can keep up and catch him.


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

speug said:


> There's a couple who live near me who have tried to spread the word that Angus is vicious as he's had handbags with their dog a couple of times (2 entire males the same age when there are often in-season bitches around), the scuffles are usually started by their dog but Angus doesn't help by wanting to go and see his former playmate. As far as has been reported back to me, the universal response has been along the lines of "no he isn't, he plays really nicely with my dog/the elderly dog that's unsure of other dogs/the little puppy along the road/the 3 little dogs round the corner"
> 
> *Angus does get misunderstood by a lot of owners and some other dogs - his crouch and stare is not an aggressive signal - it's his default instinctive behaviour on seeing something.* And he does love a good game of chase - as long as he's being chased rather than chasing He goes off at top speed when his lurcher pals are chasing him and rather slower if it's the Chihuahua and Yorkie so they can keep up and catch him.


To be fair this is a hunting/herding stance and is intended to freeze the prey or herd animal to the spot. So it's hardly surprising it's intimidating to some dogs.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

BoredomBusters said:


> When I started my dog business the advice I was given by a behaviourist who has also owned GSDs for many, many years was that GSDs should not be allowed to chase other dogs even if they are playing because they can use chase to intimidate.
> 
> Obviously the advice was very general, to protect me as a dog walker, and doesn't necessarily describe the behaviour of the may GSDs out there. But I have seen GSDs, usually the not quite properly socialised ones, using chase in a very unpleasant manner. And a dog doesn't always have to be running, to be chasing. The stare is a part of the chase sequence.
> 
> So playful or aggressive, the behaviour of that dog was not appropriate as you've described it.


I echo this comment - I was about to post that aggression can often begin as play and then become serious. It often happens when one dog is much larger than another (When I understand it is called "predatory drift"), or when one dog has a very strong prey drive - the fact that this GSD crouched and waited for your dog to approach suggests this to me.

At the moment her dog may be just playful (but a big dog can still do damage when playing), but sooner rather than later it is going to seriously injure another dog - and perhaps a person if they try to intervene.

You were quite within your rights to try to form a barrier between the two dogs. If you should encounter her again, I personally would have no hesitation in giving her dog a whack if necessary if that is what it takes to make it back off! (Yes - I know - everybody out there thinks I'm a monster. Tough!) Perhaps that is what will be required to make her keep it under control. Hopefully you will be able to avoid her, but others may not be so lucky.


----------



## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

I do have a rather radical solution to all of these instances. Sadly it relies on common sense therefore is destined to fail.

I do not understand why ALL dog owners cannot adopt the idea that they DO NOT let their dogs approach unknown dogs without checking with the owner if it's ok. Hardly rocket science is it?

This is why things like the Yellow Dog campaign bothers me. People assume that all dogs are fair game unless there is a glaring signal to state otherwise. Surely the other way round makes more sense?

As humans we do not routinely run up to and leap on strangers when we are out and about so I have no idea why this behaviour is considered normal for dogs by a seemingly huge proportion of people. 

Incidents like the one in the OP are the reason why I choose to do the majority of my dog walking out of the way, in places where we do not see other walkers often.


----------



## Wispy (Dec 3, 2013)

Hi, just a quick check in to say thank you to all who offered me support and some very sound and experienced advice 

I now walk my dog in other places, actually in areas where more 'country' based dogs are, if that makes sense? Anyhoo, we have been getting along brilliantly in our walks, I have discovered lots of new places to walk by exploring Google and getting out there and adventuring, my pooch is literally in hog heaven  

We regularly try somewhere new, and as he is a big lad and relatively protective of me, I feel safe wandering all over, giving me a sense of the most brilliant and secure freedom. Some of you may know the places? Macclesfield forest, Goyt Valley, Lyme Park, Tintwistle....and I even take him mountain biking with me on the rides I do under 10 miles, he is an excellent trail hound and can go for miles, and totally loves it 

AND!! We have even met some new friends who we regularly walk with, the lady has four dogs, and they all operate as a pleasant little pack, bit of chase, bit of sniffing, lots of wandering to and fro, check back in with each other, or us, then off again. On the days I can't be with him, he goes to the daycare place and runs with the usual pack of about 30-40 dogs.

He seems to be blossoming into a wonderful well rounded chap (he's just over 2 now) we meet the odd grumpy dog, and after an odd terse exchange, he'll take the hint and keep moving...if no grumpy overtones, and the other dog and owner are in agreement, some brilliant games of tic and chase happen 

In the main, we now don't really meet any 'city' dogs, and apart from the odd pooch verbalising 'please don't stop on my account, no really' we have brilliant trouble free walks. Most other owners are really wonderful and have very level headed attitudes about their dogs, and will either call to say 'unfriendly dog' or similar, giving me chance to call my pooch in and get him on the lead...some other dog owners never really say much, but that's ok, sometimes if I'm miles away in thought, I don't say much either 

My dog is now, through his trail hound training, very good at listening, and if a confrontation is in the offing, I can shout 'get on' and start to trot past, and he'll abandon all thoughts of the butt sniffing introductions and instantly follow me.

So a really heartfelt thank you to all of you, I was getting quite despondent and really ground down by it all, as I spend so much of my time with him....local quick walks were becoming so fraught. Now I have adjusted my habits, and we go further afield, and have just the most brilliant walks. Thank you all so much, I am now again, thoroughly enjoying my dog again :001_wub:


----------



## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

What a lovely update .


----------

