# KC registration. How important?



## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

We are considering buying a cavapoo puppy. We live in the Midlands and are prepared to travel a reasonable distance to find the right girl puppy. I have been studying the pets4homes website for around the last month as there appears to be limited availability with some of the well known breeders, who themselves have received varying degrees of good and bad press. This is usually due to socialisation of the puppy and the fear of what appears to be a puppy making factory.

Having studied the adverts and the advice from pets4homes there appears to be very few private sellers or breeders that have registered both the parents (normally the mother is a KC cav that lives at home, whilst the dad is a stud poodle that has been brought in and is not present). I normally find the father is registered but the mother isn’t. I am then faced with spending either around £1200 with a breeder, but again, or from around £1400 to £2000 from a private seller. Again when I press for more information I am normally told only one dog is registered but the other isn’t. Also when they offer kc names, no one is willing to tell me their full names and registration number in order that I can check for the inbreeding percentage of the parent which I also understand is important.

All a bit too difficult. Let alone the various health check certificates, which seems to be just a clean bill of health for the mum (kc cav) and either a simple DNA test for the dad (poodle) which appears to cover PRA. Down to a series of certificates covering around 4 other subjects.

Can someone advise me on:
1. How important Kc registration is? And why someone wouldn’t register a pedigree kc cav mum?
2. What key health tests you would insist upon with both the mum and dad?
3. What health test you would want on the puppy?
4. How do you ensure a pedigree belongs to the dog and how to check the integrity of the breeder.

Many thanks


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Someone will be a long with more experience with health tests etc soon but, the most important things when looking for a breeder is to look for one who health tests their dogs. Not just health checks, but does the required health testing on both dog and bitch.

As poodle crosses as so popular now there are alot of unethical breeders breeding 'poos' and won't have any of the health tests. The popularity is unfortunately causing a lot of BYB to cross anything with a poodle and they sell. So you have to be extra careful when selecting a breeder for these. Is there any reason you're looking for a cross instead of a pure Cav or poodle? Both are lovely dogs, why not look for a purebred? You will obviously still need to look for breeders who health test but it may be easier to find. Cavs do have a lot of problems so you do need to be careful.

Any good ethical breeder will have absolutely no problems telling you the dog name and the registration and producing the health tests. You can check on websites (I think champ dogs) for records of the tests with the dogs name.

As for the importance of KC registered... it is somewhat important but not the only thing you should go on, even BYB will KC register some of their dogs. Not all KC registered dogs are from ethical breeders.

I think this is the website: http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/ that shows a list of health checks breeds should have (or are available).

Good luck in your search


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

Also I've reported your thread so hopefully it can be moved to dog section and you should get more replies 

(If I've done it right!)


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

Many thanks. I wasn’t sure what section I was publishing in so I appreciate your help. We are keen on the cavapoo as they just look so cute I guess. The website you mention looks good. I will study it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Is there a reason you are looking for a Cavalier crossed with a Poodle, as apposed to a purebred Poodle or Cavalier? because as you have found out, it's extremely difficult to find reputable breeders of this cross; the majority are bred by puppy farmers and backyard breeders.

The prices you are quoting are also astronomical for a crossbreed. I am not sure about Cavaliers, but I know you can purchase a purebred Mini Poodle, KC registered, good bloodlines, fully health tested parents, for less than £1000. So paying £1200-2000 for a cross of an untested background makes little sense, and all you are doing is lining the pockets of these unscrupulous breeders.

Cavaliers are sadly prone to multiple serious health problems when not very carefully bred. These include having an MRI to rule out syringomyelia, heart testing and multiple eye tests; you would be extremely lucky to fit a litter of this cross that has had a single out of these tests, never mind all that are recommended.

The answer to your questions to simply walk away at looking from these crosses.


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## MissSpitzMum (Dec 4, 2017)

Cavaliers are one of the most unhealthy dog breeds out there, and their possible illnesses can be fatal (SM & heart murmurs). Health tests for the Cavalier parents are more important than a KC registration, and these include Dry Eye, MRI scans, heart checks over 5, and generations of proof of their health.

I have been following a blog of a lady who loves the breed but is trying to outcross Cavaliers to improve health, unfortunately she has found that adding poodle doesn't remove SM and her poodle crosses (3/4 Cav) have presented with low grade chiari malformation. Personally I wouldn't risk it. KC reg or not!


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

You make some very good points. I will give your ideas some thought. Many thanks


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

MissSpitzMum said:


> Cavaliers are one of the most unhealthy dog breeds out there, and their possible illnesses can be fatal (SM & heart murmurs). Health tests for the Cavalier parents are more important than a KC registration, and these include Dry Eye, MRI scans, heart checks over 5, and generations of proof of their health.
> 
> I have been following a blog of a lady who loves the breed but is trying to outcross Cavaliers to improve health, unfortunately she has found that adding poodle doesn't remove SM and her poodle crosses (3/4 Cav) have presented with low grade chiari malformation. Personally I wouldn't risk it. KC reg or not!


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

That's interesting. Many thanks


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

A lot of these people breeding these crosses have become quite savvy and know that putting a singular token health test in there makes it 'look' better. As you say, this is very often the Poodle sire, who usually has a single token health test. It means they can advertised the litter as "health tested" which of course makes it more appealing to buyers.

If the only thing that is attracting you to this cross is it's "cute" looks, then there are various breeds and [non designer] crosses that have that scruffy look if that is what you are desire. One of my colleagues has a Greek rescue street dog that looks very much like these crosses that people pay thousands for - in fact I think she's better looking!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

labradrk said:


> A lot of these people breeding these crosses have become quite savvy and know that putting a singular token health test in there makes it 'look' better. As you say, this is very often the Poodle sire, who usually has a single token health test. It means they can advertised the litter as "health tested" which of course makes it more appealing to buyers.
> 
> If the only thing that is attracting you to this cross is it's "cute" looks, then there are various breeds and [non designer] crosses that have that scruffy look if that is what you are desire. One of my colleagues has a Greek rescue street dog that looks very much like these crosses that people pay thousands for - in fact I think she's better looking!


I've noticed that there has been breeders advertising golden retriever puppies on Champdogs who will only allow breeders that health test to advertise, with only the annual eye test which is the cheapest test and is likely to have only been done the once. Champdogs have had this pointed out to them and I hope they take note, but I do wonder if they will. Golden retrievers should, at the very least, have tests for had and ED as well as all the PRA eye tests.
As you say @labradrk this appears to be the latest tactic with puppy farms and bybs to have the token health test (the cheapest one they can find)


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

LKixley said:


> And why someone wouldn't register a pedigree kc cav mum?


The main reason a breeder doesn't register a Cavalier King Charles (or any dog) is that they can't show a five generation pedigree because the dog is not either a purebred Cav or has been bred out of an unregistered line due to bad breeding practices. These practises include over breeding bitches, breeding older bitches or inbreeding - all of which will prevent registration with the Kennel Club (and suggest Puppy Farming).

I wouldn't touch an offspring from a Cavalier that isn't registered. Full stop.

The prices you have seen would suggest money breeders - not necessarily good breeders - simply those who do it as a business and who charge what they think they can get for their litters. No registration is a red flag. No health testing is a double red flag.

A home bred, health tested, pedigree Cavalier from a healthy line should cost you under £1000. I really can't see why breeders think that a poodle cross should cost more than either pedigree dogs used in the first place....or why people are so happy to pay it  It really is a case of £££££. Many Cavvie breeders can now show good health test results going back at least two or three generations - for early onset heart murmur (MVD) and for Syringomelia (SM) the two issues that of concern to Cavaliers. I know as I have three and there are another seven I know well and who remain happy, healthy and issue free - and one is 14 years old now.

I'm not a fan of the Cavipoo as i think it ruins two good breeds ...and as for cute .......well, you can't beat a Cavvi puppy. 

J


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

labradrk said:


> A lot of these people breeding these crosses have become quite savvy and know that putting a singular token health test in there makes it 'look' better. As you say, this is very often the Poodle sire, who usually has a single token health test. It means they can advertised the litter as "health tested" which of course makes it more appealing to buyers.
> 
> If the only thing that is attracting you to this cross is it's "cute" looks, then there are various breeds and [non designer] crosses that have that scruffy look if that is what you are desire. One of my colleagues has a Greek rescue street dog that looks very much like these crosses that people pay thousands for - in fact I think she's better looking!


Ok maybe I was simplifying why we fancied a cavapoo too much. I saw from the breed information that they ticked the right boxes in terms of loyalty, training, intelligence, being left alone etc. We also have a close friend who has one and their dog seems to be perfect for what we are looking for. Many thanks for your advice.


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> The main reason a breeder doesn't register a Cavalier King Charles (or any dog) is that they can't show a five generation pedigree because the dog is not either a purebred Cav or has been bred out of an unregistered line due to bad breeding practices. These practises include over breeding bitches, breeding older bitches or inbreeding - all of which will prevent registration with the Kennel Club (and suggest Puppy Farming).
> 
> I wouldn't touch an offspring from a Cavalier that isn't registered. Full stop.
> 
> ...


Thank you that's really useful and has given me something to think about.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

LKixley said:


> Ok maybe I was simplifying why we fancied a cavapoo too much. I saw from the breed information that they ticked the right boxes in terms of loyalty, training, intelligence, being left alone etc. We also have a close friend who has one and their dog seems to be perfect for what we are looking for. Many thanks for your advice.


A purebred cavalier would tick all those boxes and you would have the benefit of having a health tested well bred puppy IF you went to an ethical breeder who is breeding for all the right reasons, not just to make cash from people who don't bother about where their dog comes from

Cavvies are lovely little dogs in their own right and don't need to be crossbreed with poodles or anything else.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

It's good that you are doing your research. You may find https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-lovers-registration-club-a-con.474019/ a running thread also of potential interest.



LKixley said:


> Ok maybe I was simplifying why we fancied a cavapoo too much. I saw from the breed information that they ticked the right boxes in terms of loyalty, training, intelligence, being left alone etc. We also have a close friend who has one and their dog seems to be perfect for what we are looking for. Many thanks for your advice.


Trouble with any crossbreed is you take both breeds (personality traits of which are not guaranteed) and roll the dice in terms of what parent they inherit. When it comes to being left alone etc that is mostly to do with training. Loyalty and intelligence, looks depend to a degree on the parents but given one parent high energy, the other low you could get anywhere in between. Same goes for fur type whatever. "Perfect for what we are looking for" isn't something which is solely down to breed or "type". So much is also training, socialisation etc. Breeds can only provide a baseline not a guarantee. There are retrievers who do not retrieve for example, herders who can't herd. That's where checking pedigrees comes into play. An offspring from good herders for example is more likely to also be a good herder. I say likely, not guaranteed.


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## Teddy-dog (Nov 2, 2017)

@Goblin is right, you can't guarantee your pup will turn out exactly like your friends. In fact, a crossbreed is more of an uncertainty as they could take on traits from the breeds they're crossed from, so you could end up with a dog very much like a poodle or very much like a cav or anywhere inbetween. Your friends dog might have taken on traits of a cavvy for example and you might end up with a pup with more poodle traits so the two dogs will not be alike.

Though some breeds are more prone to separation anxiety, being left alone is mostly down to being trained correctly. All dogs need to be trained to be left, no matter what the breed.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I'm not a fan of the Cavipoo as i think it ruins two good breeds ...and as for cute .......well, you can't beat a Cavvi puppy.
> 
> J


Yes you can.. Hovawart. (Not recommended for 1st time owners) but then all puppies are cute. It's why breeders, especially bad ones are so determined to get people to see them, preferably before doing research. Hard but sometimes necessary to say no holding a puppy.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

After owning a cavalier for the last 5 year's and recently losing him due to MVD I cannot stress how important it is that any cavalier purchased is from health tested parents.

It's a devastating disease luckily my boy reached 13 ( well almost ) however most aren't so lucky.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I personally don't think there are any half decent cavapoo breeders out there, I haven't come across even one that tests for CM/SM (probably because an expensive MRI would eat into their potential profits too much).

Although they make the right noises about other health testing they do, IMO SM is a horrific disease in its own right, & regardless of what other conditions they have tested for if they haven't MRI'd their breeding dogs then they are categorically NOT a good breeder.

Cavs are a breed that I think can only be saved by thoughtful outcrossing- testing can only go so far- although I don't understand why a poodle would be the logical choice here where another type of spaniel would help keep breed 'type', 

Apart from the obvious magic words 'doodl' or 'poo' being tacked onto a breed name to add a few hundred quid to the asking price.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Do you have Hovawarts @Goblin ? Beautiful dogs my friend brought them into the UK.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Had my hovawart Benny who was blind from a rescue but lost him in November. Should be picking up Bobby tomorrow https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/meet-bobby.473920/ Obviously they are a lot more common in Germany as I never heard of them before I came here (live in Germany).


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Sorry to hear about Benny hope you have a lot of fun with Bobby. I have never seen a Hovawart except my friends and at shows


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

LKixley said:


> We are considering buying a cavapoo puppy. We live in the Midlands and are prepared to travel a reasonable distance to find the right girl puppy. I have been studying the pets4homes website for around the last month as there appears to be limited availability with some of the well known breeders, who themselves have received varying degrees of good and bad press. This is usually due to socialisation of the puppy and the fear of what appears to be a puppy making factory.
> 
> Having studied the adverts and the advice from pets4homes there appears to be very few private sellers or breeders that have registered both the parents (normally the mother is a KC cav that lives at home, whilst the dad is a stud poodle that has been brought in and is not present). I normally find the father is registered but the mother isn't. I am then faced with spending either around £1200 with a breeder, but again, or from around £1400 to £2000 from a private seller. Again when I press for more information I am normally told only one dog is registered but the other isn't. Also when they offer kc names, no one is willing to tell me their full names and registration number in order that I can check for the inbreeding percentage of the parent which I also understand is important.
> 
> ...


If a dog is KC registered then that will tell you the heritage and breeding behind the parents. One of the criteria to register a litter of puppies,
is that both parents are kennel club registered themselves. So if one or both parents isn't registered themselves then any progeny cant be.
There are other reasons too why a dog or puppy cant be registered either, even if both parents are registered themselves.
If the Dam (mum) has already produced 4 litters then any more after this cannot be registered, If the Mum has reached 8 years old when she has the puppies again they cant be registered, the mum was under 1 year old at time of mating, If the puppies were the result of a close mating, mother to son, father to daughter, brother and sister then again any resulting pups cant be registered, If the mum has had two previous litters by C-section then you cant register any more after that, the mum was not in the UK when she had the puppies, the last reason is if the dog has an endorsement on its registration put on by the original breeder, like progeny not eligible for registration, this means that any resulting pups cannot be registered if the mother or father has this endorsement on their own registration. So there are numerous reasons why a pedigree dog may not be registered. Be aware though even if a dog is KC registered this does not always mean that the dog is health tested or comes from a good reputable ethical breeder, you still need to research and asked questions about health testing, how and where the pups are raised etc.

You can find more about health testing that parents should under go before being bred from on the links below. The first also explains the difference between and F1 (first cross) F2 and so on.
http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/cavapoo/

Further health testing available on Min Poodle
http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/miniature-poodle/

Further health testing info on CKCs
http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/cavalier-king-charles-spaniel/

Dogs trust has good info on sourcing a breeder, what questions to ask, what should make you suspicious etc etc
https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/advice-for-owners/buying-a-dog/buying-a-dog

Its often much easier to source a good breeder who health tests, and raises the puppies correctly with a full pedigree dog then some of the crosses or so called newer designer breeds. This is because due to the popularity, you have many non ethical breeders and puppy farmers as well as back yard breeders producing them often for one sole goal in mind for profit.

There is now a Cockapoo owners club and they do have some advice of there about cavapoos too which you can find on the link below
http://www.cockapooowners-club.org.uk/cavapoos.html


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

Goblin said:


> It's good that you are doing your research. You may find https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/dog-lovers-registration-club-a-con.474019/ a running thread also of potential interest.
> 
> Trouble with any crossbreed is you take both breeds (personality traits of which are not guaranteed) and roll the dice in terms of what parent they inherit. When it comes to being left alone etc that is mostly to do with training. Loyalty and intelligence, looks depend to a degree on the parents but given one parent high energy, the other low you could get anywhere in between. Same goes for fur type whatever. "Perfect for what we are looking for" isn't something which is solely down to breed or "type". So much is also training, socialisation etc. Breeds can only provide a baseline not a guarantee. There are retrievers who do not retrieve for example, herders who can't herd. That's where checking pedigrees comes into play. An offspring from good herders for example is more likely to also be a good herder. I say likely, not guaranteed.


Ok thanks for that. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

Teddy-dog said:


> @Goblin is right, you can't guarantee your pup will turn out exactly like your friends. In fact, a crossbreed is more of an uncertainty as they could take on traits from the breeds they're crossed from, so you could end up with a dog very much like a poodle or very much like a cav or anywhere inbetween. Your friends dog might have taken on traits of a cavvy for example and you might end up with a pup with more poodle traits so the two dogs will not be alike.
> 
> Though some breeds are more prone to separation anxiety, being left alone is mostly down to being trained correctly. All dogs need to be trained to be left, no matter what the breed.


Ok thanks for that. I appreciate your comments.


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If a dog is KC registered then that will tell you the heritage and breeding behind the parents. One of the criteria to register a litter of puppies,
> is that both parents are kennel club registered themselves. So if one or both parents isn't registered themselves then any progeny cant be.
> There are other reasons too why a dog or puppy cant be registered either, even if both parents are registered themselves.
> If the Dam (mum) has already produced 4 litters then any more after this cannot be registered, If the Mum has reached 8 years old when she has the puppies again they cant be registered, the mum was under 1 year old at time of mating, If the puppies were the result of a close mating, mother to son, father to daughter, brother and sister then again any resulting pups cant be registered, If the mum has had two previous litters by C-section then you cant register any more after that, the mum was not in the UK when she had the puppies, the last reason is if the dog has an endorsement on its registration put on by the original breeder, like progeny not eligible for registration, this means that any resulting pups cannot be registered if the mother or father has this endorsement on their own registration. So there are numerous reasons why a pedigree dog may not be registered. Be aware though even if a dog is KC registered this does not always mean that the dog is health tested or comes from a good reputable ethical breeder, you still need to research and asked questions about health testing, how and where the pups are raised etc.
> ...


Wow that's a brilliant reply. Thank you. On that basis full pedigree parents that create a crossbreed and that are kc registered and fully health tested from a reputable breeder may the way to go. Although my point about not finding a KC registered mum with some bigger breeders leads me to believe that she might not be registered for some of the reasons you outline above. Trying to find one still creates a problem.


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## kittih (Jan 19, 2014)

LKixley said:


> Wow that's a brilliant reply. Thank you. On that basis full pedigree parents that create a crossbreed and that are kc registered and fully health tested from a reputable breeder may the way to go. Although my point about not finding a KC registered mum with some bigger breeders leads me to believe that she might not be registered for some of the reasons you outline above. Trying to find one still creates a problem.


As I understand it good breeders who have kc registered bitches and studs and do all the health testing required and recommended won't generally be interested in producing crossbreeds by mating their bitch or stud to a different breed. If they are good ethical breeders then producing crossbreed does nothing to further their breed or meet other aims they might have such as showing, competing or improving health. A well respected breeder would see little benefits in producing a mix unless the primary motivation was money.

There are lots of "poo" breeds including puppies in rescues. Perhaps that might be something to consider if your heart is set on this cross breed.


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

kittih said:


> As I understand it good breeders who have kc registered bitches and studs and do all the health testing required and recommended won't generally be interested in producing crossbreeds by mating their bitch or stud to a different breed. If they are good ethical breeders then producing crossbreed does nothing to further their breed or meet other aims they might have such as showing, competing or improving health. A well respected breeder would see little benefits in producing a mix unless the primary motivation was money.
> 
> There are lots of "poo" breeds including puppies in rescues. Perhaps that might be something to consider if your heart is set on this cross breed.


Okay that explains a great deal..


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

The lack of KC registration would make me suspicious as to what they're hiding. So, they've either bred outside the regulations of registration as listed by Sled Dog Hotel or they themselves have bought from a line of non registered dogs.

I think you will be hard pressed to find a Cavapoo breeder who is performing all recommended health tests on their dogs. Some will offer the bear minimum tests such as eye tests and DNA tests, but the more important ones such as SM or MVD are usually non existent and those would be deal breakers for me.

As mentioned already, either purebred of this mix would equally have the traits you seem to love and you will find it much easier to come by a reputable breeder of either.


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## LKixley (Feb 6, 2018)

Dogloverlou said:


> The lack of KC registration would make me suspicious as to what they're hiding. So, they've either bred outside the regulations of registration as listed by Sled Dog Hotel or they themselves have bought from a line of non registered dogs.
> 
> I think you will be hard pressed to find a Cavapoo breeder who is performing all recommended health tests on their dogs. Some will offer the bear minimum tests such as eye tests and DNA tests, but the more important ones such as SM or MVD are usually non existent and those would be deal breakers for me.
> 
> As mentioned already, either purebred of this mix would equally have the traits you seem to love and you will find it much easier to come by a reputable breeder of either.


That's very useful. Thank you v much.


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