# Uncontrollable in the house when we move or visitors come



## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

ddddlllllllllllllllllll


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> We still have our rescue border collie, he is now 4 and a half; over the last 6 months his behaviour has worsened considerably in that he gets in a hysterical state (barking, spinning round on the spot barking ferociously) when one of us tries to leave the house. All we have to do is pick up the keys and he is there headbutting the back of our legs and sometimes collie nipping. Any attempt to calm him fails - to move him into another room whilst one of us goes out, results in absolute hysteria from him. He barks continuously, spinning round on the spot in a demented manner.
> 
> Likewise he is the same with any visitors, in fact we are now at the point where we cannot have visitors to the house because if he collie nips them that would be dreadful. As it is, even with people he knows, who come to see us, he barks ferociously if they try to move from a sitting position. If anyone comes to the door he goes berserk and is completely uncontrollable.
> 
> ...


Have you ever thought of speaking to Wiccaweys. They rehome, and rehabilitate border collies. A lot of the behaviour he exhibits isn't unusual for Border collies. Wiccaweys do offer behavioural advice, they are very busy and it may take a few attempts to get hold of them, but it may well be worth getting to speak to them and ask there advice.

Untitled Document

Contact details and more about them are on the above link.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks for the reply... we actually got him from Wiccaweys in the first place but weren't sure what their situation was these days after the RSPCA raid earlier in the year.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

I hope the behaviourist can offer you help and advice.

It sounds very much like herding behaviour that has spiralled out of control.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Twiggy said:


> I hope the behaviourist can offer you help and advice.
> 
> It sounds very much like herding behaviour that has spiralled out of control.


Could well be! What we don't understand is why.... or what we can do. We are really interested to hear people's views on this forum even though we are seeing a behaviourist. There is so much knowledge here.

He is lying in his bed fast asleep right now, very calm.... you wouldn't think it was the same dog. He is a gentle loving soul... loves cuddles... it is all very heartbreaking.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Have you tried, doing anything with him to exercise his brain, like obedience, agility and other things that collies tend to love and excel at. Sometimes they do the things he is doing, because they haven't got otherways to channel their natural instincts and drives and use their brains on.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Have you tried, doing anything with him to exercise his brain, like obedience, agility and other things that collies tend to love and excel at. Sometimes they do the things he is doing, because they haven't got otherways to channel their natural instincts and drives and use their brains on.


We are not able to do agility with him but we have treated him no different from the last rescue border collie we had, who lived a full and happy life with us until she died aged 12. We have put a lot of time into training him since he had not had any training whatsoever when we got him, not even house training. He is very responsive apart from the times he gets in these states, when he is absolutely deaf to any commands, nor can he be distracted by treats or anything. When out on his walks his recall is superb, a joy to take out.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Kebars9 said:


> We are not able to do agility with him but we have treated him no different from the last rescue border collie we had, who lived a full and happy life with us until she died aged 12. We have put a lot of time into training him since he had not had any training whatsoever when we got him, not even house training. He is very responsive apart from the times he gets in these states, when he is absolutely deaf to any commands, nor can he be distracted by treats or anything. When out on his walks his recall is superb, a joy to take out.


I was going to ask if you give him an outlet for his pent up energy. Collies need to exercise their brain and have a job to do, otherwise they create their own job.

In all honesty there is no point in comparing him to your previous rescue collie because they are all so very different.

I've owned and trained collies for over 35 years and they have all been very different characters. Some highly excitable, some very keen to learn, some very sensitive and others totally laid back.

You say you've put a lot of work into him, which I'm sure you have but has it been appropriate training? Does he know a basic down stay? What would happen if you told him to lie down and then you walked up to the door (as if you were leaving the room)?


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Twiggy said:


> I was going to ask if you give him an outlet for his pent up energy. Collies need to exercise their brain and have a job to do, otherwise they create their own job.
> 
> In all honesty there is no point in comparing him to your previous rescue collie because they are all so very different.
> 
> ...


Yes he knows the basic down stay and the sit, recall etc.... but if we tell him to do the stay and then walk towards the door once he knows we are dressed to go out or knows we have picked our keys up none of it will be obeyed... it's as if a red mist comes down and he is then quite oblivious to any instruction. He has only started this extreme behaviour in the last six months.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Good luck with the behaviourist, they are usually brilliant in offering a solution to problem behaviours, although I expect it will take time with your boy being so excitable. 
What do you feed him? Because some foods contain additives which aid hyperactivity. Also is it possible to put a dog gate across a doorway, the kitchen perhaps, so as he can see you leave but not nip you and practice undesirable behaviour. The more he practices it the stronger it becomes. You could also use the gate to confine him when visitors come, for their safety and for you to be able to socialise still 

A tiring but fun game is the find it game, you hide a treat/toy after letting him sniff it and tell him to find it. Leave it in a visible place to start with then make it more difficult once he's learned what to do, you can then use the garden too. Dogs usually love this game and it whacks them out after forty five mins or so. Possibly longer with your boy.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

I've never owned a BC so I have no educated advice  but maybe start using the triggers, like the keys, randomly and often without going anywhere? Maybe he'll start thinking "oh, nothing happened" ?? I understand a little about the whole getting over excited about visitors, my GSD can be a pain sometimes, but it's mostly visitors fault because they ignore me when I tell them to ignore her unless she is calm and has all 4 paws on the floor! So my theory is....get more dogs, ban people  ha ha


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## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Oh poor you, I can really sympathise with the visitors issue because our rescue terrier is a nightmare with visitors and has also got worse for no apparent reason. We are also in a situation where we avoid having people around at the moment. I was recommended a great book called "Fired Up, Frantic and Freaked Out" which is good reading but its hard to believe that the techniques will work on our very excitable dog! I am going to give it a try though.

We had issues with leaving the house too. I spent a lot of time picking up my keys and going out, then waiting a few minutes and coming back in. I also used to make a point of shutting Bertie in while I went to hang the washing out, or out to the car for something. I think there is a separation anxiety thread on here which is helpful - this has really worked for us but it may just be there is something else going on with your Collie.

I know what its like to have a dog that at times can just be absolutely out of control and not listening to a word you say. Its very frustrating and you feel like you have failed somehow. Good luck with the behaviourist.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Janey D said:


> Oh poor you, I can really sympathise with the visitors issue because our rescue terrier is a nightmare with visitors and has also got worse for no apparent reason. We are also in a situation where we avoid having people around at the moment. I was recommended a great book called "Fired Up, Frantic and Freaked Out" which is good reading but its hard to believe that the techniques will work on our very excitable dog! I am going to give it a try though.
> 
> We had issues with leaving the house too. I spent a lot of time picking up my keys and going out, then waiting a few minutes and coming back in. I also used to make a point of shutting Bertie in while I went to hang the washing out, or out to the car for something. I think there is a separation anxiety thread on here which is helpful - this has really worked for us but it may just be there is something else going on with your Collie.
> 
> I know what its like to have a dog that at times can just be absolutely out of control and not listening to a word you say. Its very frustrating and you feel like you have failed somehow. Good luck with the behaviourist.


Many thanks! I may look out for that book. Had a bad day today with him again, so we hope the behaviourist can come up with something. Oddly enough he is only like this when one of us is out! If one of us is in on our own, then wants to go out he doesn't fly off the handle. Very strange. We are coming to the conclusion that he needs a good home with someone living on their own in a very quiet location. There is no way we would give him up to rescue kennels as he would suffer in that environment and we would feel we had betrayed him. We love him to bits but cannot imagine living with this for the rest of his life as he is now controlling our very movements within the house.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Kivasmum said:


> I've never owned a BC so I have no educated advice  but maybe start using the triggers, like the keys, randomly and often without going anywhere? Maybe he'll start thinking "oh, nothing happened" ?? I understand a little about the whole getting over excited about visitors, my GSD can be a pain sometimes, but it's mostly visitors fault because they ignore me when I tell them to ignore her unless she is calm and has all 4 paws on the floor! So my theory is....get more dogs, ban people  ha ha


Ha! Sounds good :wink:


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## penny17 (Nov 25, 2013)

I advise you to phone Wiccaweys for a chat about your collie. They will help you sort out the problem. As with most rescues the agreement when you take on a collie is to contact them if you have problems.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Hello I am training as a canine behaviourist so I hope I can help. I my just be saying what your behaviourist may say lol. 

I will just rattle off the methods I would offer to a client.

It really depends on what's happend in the past and I would need to be there to analyse it around your daily routine.

With the visitors, what's happening is they feel the need to protect you. This could of happend without you realising, maybe you put the dogs away to keep the visitors safe, or the visitors were shuffled into the nearest room which technically the dogs then learned that they delt with the danger and will continue to do the same thing next time.

The best way to deal with it is too ask a friend you may not see very often to help you out. Have them at the door waiting to ring the door bell.
*Use a mat or a the bed to use as the dogs "place" and put it across the room from the door. Far enough away so he can't touch the visitors but he can still see the door.
* Get some lovely treats, maybe some wam chicken, but only small pieces as you don't want to fatten him up.
* Walk with your dog to the mat an say "place", pointing to the mat.
* Show your dog that you have the treat but don't let him have it until he sits in "place".
You will use this as his spot to go to when the door bell rings.

Keep repeating this task and your dog will soon realise he gets a treat if he waits in his "place".

The next stage is to slowly walk away from him and send him to his place without going with him.

Once he has learned thi we can start to train him with visitors.

* Have someone ring the doorbell and send your dog to his "place".
* Start walking towards the door and if your dog follows turn around and walk back again saying "place" again.
You must repeat this until you can open the door and your dog stays in place.

Now your visitor can come in. You have to teach your dog the he has no reason to worry as you will deal with this so called danger. It's not a dominance thing, he just has always been confused on who takes care of the danger.

Once you have finally managed to get the visitor in, these are the next stages.
* Have your visitor walk close and drop a treat down near him.
Have him on a lead at this point.
If he attacks, turn round with no emotion and go out the room with him. Don't pull on the lead just have it so he can feel that your moving.
* When he is calm, enter the room again with the visitor still in there.
He must learn that barking = he leaves the room... Therefore it's no fun.
* have your visitor chuck treats in front of him only when he is calm and work up to the visitor being able to give him treats from your hand.

We are creating the association that visitors = good things.

I hope this helps for the visitors. 
I will reply separately for anxiety.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Hello I am training as a canine behaviourist so I hope I can help. I my just be saying what your behaviourist may say lol.
> 
> I will just rattle off the methods I would offer to a client.
> 
> ...


All that without even seeing the dog and it's body language.

I'd have the dog properly assessed by someone who can see how he reacts and what stress he displays (if any).

I've no issue with reconditioning the dog to associate visitors with good things, but deciding the problem is because the dog thinks it's in charge protecting you without seeing it - well, there's no rational basis for this supposition.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> All that without even seeing the dog and it's body language.
> 
> I'd have the dog properly assessed by someone who can see how he reacts and what stress he displays (if any).
> 
> I've no issue with reconditioning the dog to associate visitors with good things, but deciding the problem is because the dog thinks it's in charge protecting you without seeing it - well, there's no rational basis for this supposition.


Like I said in the message I would have to be there, but on the basis that I'm not there, I just gave the best solution I can in writing. It's trial and error with everything. I just want to help as much as I can from here. Please don't make it out as if I'm wrong to do that.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> All that without even seeing the dog and it's body language.
> 
> I'd have the dog properly assessed by someone who can see how he reacts and what stress he displays (if any).
> 
> I've no issue with reconditioning the dog to associate visitors with good things, but deciding the problem is because the dog thinks it's in charge protecting you without seeing it - well, there's no rational basis for this supposition.


Also I never said " the dog is in charge" as I don't believe in dominance. And did already say I would need to be there. I have given a method that's easy to follow and in the long run will help.

This is a forum so everyone on here will be making the same assumptions and trying to help. They already said they are getting a behaviourist so every bit of extra advice always helps. I'm sure the dog owner is quite aware that we all can't be there to see and analyse properly.

And can I ask why you felt the need or felt it was your place to complain about my post? 
Were all on here to help, and giving advice to the dog owner in need is the most important thing here. So let's stick to that.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As a matter of interest are you a provisional or affiliate member of COAPE, UKRCB or APBC?


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> As a matter of interest are you a provisional or affiliate member of COAPE, UKRCB or APBC?


Not yet but this is my aim, I'm only 21 and doing home study courses, offering free home visits to test and try methods and just learning as I go along. I don't have the money to pay for the membership yet.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Not yet but this is my aim, I'm only 21 and doing home study courses, offering free home visits to test and try methods and just learning as I go along. I don't have the money to pay for the membership yet.


I thought so as of course these organisations have codes of practice and of strict membership criteria for membership and generally require a relevant degree for membership and in fact in the future the APBC will only accept those who have a CCAB.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> I thought so as of course these organisations have codes of practice and of strict membership criteria for membership and generally require a relevant degree for membership and in fact in the future the APBC will only accept those who have a CCAB.


Yeah you can do a few moduals before hand to get you onto the degree. One of the organisations allow you to become part of ABPC when you finish the course.
It's going to be a long process but I'm doing all I can to learn on the way. I have 2 successful clients so far but I haven't been offering my services for long. Answering questions on here allows me to get in the habbit of analysing the problem and trying to answer it.

Of course being on a forum means I would not be able to see the behaviour properly but the people on here are only asking for advice anyway lol.

Are you a member?.
How would I go about getting a CCAB?.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Also I never said " the dog is in charge" as I don't believe in dominance. And did already say I would need to be there. I have given a method that's easy to follow and in the long run will help.
> 
> This is a forum so everyone on here will be making the same assumptions and trying to help. They already said they are getting a behaviourist so every bit of extra advice always helps. I'm sure the dog owner is quite aware that we all can't be there to see and analyse properly.
> 
> ...


Don't try to change the meaning by dropping the context. You clearly said (and I put in bold so there's no doubt I was referring to anything else) *"what's happening is they feel the need to protect you"*. I wrote that as "but deciding the problem is because the dog thinks it's in charge (of) protecting you...". Okay, I did miss out the 'of' in the post, typing as fast as I was.

I commented (not complained) about your post because giving advice about potentially dangerous, aggressive behaviour without seeing it could make the situation worse, especially if the supposed reason behind it is wrong. As the dog in question is a collie, I'd think protection of it's owners a less likely explanation than the urge to herd gone beyond normal parameters.

Everyone here is NOT making the same assumptions. I'm making different ones to yours, for a start. And wrong advice could be worse than no advice.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Kebars9 said:


> We still have our rescue border collie, he is now 4 and a half; over the last 6 months his behaviour has worsened considerably in that he gets in a hysterical state (barking, spinning round on the spot barking ferociously) when one of us tries to leave the house. All we have to do is pick up the keys and he is there headbutting the back of our legs and sometimes collie nipping. Any attempt to calm him fails - to move him into another room whilst one of us goes out, results in absolute hysteria from him. He barks continuously, spinning round on the spot in a demented manner.
> 
> Likewise he is the same with any visitors, in fact we are now at the point where we cannot have visitors to the house because if he collie nips them that would be dreadful. As it is, even with people he knows, who come to see us, he barks ferociously if they try to move from a sitting position. If anyone comes to the door he goes berserk and is completely uncontrollable.
> 
> ...


Kebars9, I can only fathom the heartbreak, frustration and despair behind your post. To deal with a dog, day in and day out, who has adopted a incomprehensible, self-destructive, annoying and worrying behavioural routine is enough to fry anyones brain and soul.

A dog whose behavioural quirks now restricts your movements and friendships and impinges on every aspect of YOUR life and your other dog's life.

I once had a dog like this ( albeit not a Border Collie). Ok, his issues didn't involve spinning and barking, but due to his character quirks he made me ever more lonely. And jumpy. I loved him passionately...but THIS was not what I had in mind when I bought him. And, as in your situation, things got worse with time, not better.

I never forget the day when I sat there with the number of the breed rescue already punched into the telephone. Bawling my eyes out...but I was done. I couldn't see a way forward. I was exhausted, frustrated and whilst I was all prepared to accept that I was clearly unfit to be a good owner to him, as, despite my best efforts, I was evidently just not cut out for it.

I was at the same point as you - what did I owe to my dog...and what did I owe to myself? And the answer was - I DIDN'T owe him a nervous breakdown and living like a hermit. Yet I was a hair width away from both. Like you we had another, perfectly "normal" dog which I also had to consider. And you know....there was also a part of me who really knew that I didn't "deserve" this difficult-as-a-goat dog of mine. Dog ownership is meant to enrich our lives, not impoverish and impossibly burden it. It is meant to add an extra joy, an extra dimension to our lives, not make it angrier and more frustrating. Right? Right.

I never went through with calling the breed rescue. I put the phone back on the cradle.

Why? because whatever his issues....he was MINE. And I was his. Whatever I owed or didn't owe to my dog, or owed myself, the one thing I was very clear on: there was no magical "better home" with "better owners" out there. And if I, who loved him so much, couldn't or no longer wanter to deal with this problematic dog ....what were the realistic odds that someone who had no emotional ties to him would be prepared to?

A: there was next to no chance. And rather than seeing my dog pushed from pillar to post it would be kinder to put him to sleep. But I couldn't handle that thought either. Which sorta left me out of options except to have another crack at it...and toughen up.

Which is exactly my advice to you. Toughen up, redraw the boundries and have expectations which your dog will HAVE to meet. I suppose in a way this means that he will have to work hard to, quite literally, earn his keep. But that is ok, he is a working dog. And EVERY behavioural intervention is going to be infinitely easier on him than to lose his home and....YOU.

In my case this translated into NILIF = Nothing In Life Is Free. And it really meant NOTHING. No cuddle, no game, no treat, no entering the room without my permission. I was NOT a warm, cuddly, fun owner for a while. And if you knew me....I am ALL about that. I do NOT relish interacting with my dogs like a army commander. But I did.

Within a few weeks I had a different dog. Nope, he wasn't a saint by any means ( yet) but our relationship had shifted. For the first time I felt I had some control...but yes, it still was a process.

The dog which had me on the brink of a nervous breakdown turned into one of my life's proudest accomplishments. The dog I could trust with nothing and noone turned into the most reliable companion imaginable. His behavioural quirks dissipated..or rather he was so obedient that I could successfully intercept them.

You CAN do this, too. It necessitates some hard work. Primarily on YOURSELF.

Be cautious of the school of "cotton wool ball throwers" trainers and behaviourists. SOME dogs NEED strict, firm handling, at least for a while. Strict and firm is NOT synonymous with cruel and abusive but it IS removed from fluffy, laid-back "we are all equals and chums and here is yet another treat". You are NOT his chum - you set the parameters of what he can and can't do.

Meaning he is NOT allowed to bark and spin and nip and drive you generally demented. Meaning he won't get what he wants - be that attention or game or cuddles or whatever - until YOU get what YOU want. Start with a "down - stay". Practice this every day, MANY times a day. A dog can't spin and nip whilst he is lying down ( but you may have to accept the barking ...just for now). The ONLY time he gets any attention is when he does something which YOU want him to do.

Steel yourself. And maintain this attitude. Since you said he got worse since you had him, you ARE directly responsible for his behaviour ( and I don't mean this nastily). Which means that YOU, and no one else, are responsible to address and fix it. You CAN do it.

There is no magical "better home and owner" out there. YOU are the one.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> Don't try to change the meaning by dropping the context. You clearly said (and I put in bold so there's no doubt I was referring to anything else) *"what's happening is they feel the need to protect you"*. I wrote that as "but deciding the problem is because the dog thinks it's in charge (of) protecting you...". Okay, I did miss out the 'of' in the post, typing as fast as I was.
> 
> I commented (not complained) about your post because giving advice about potentially dangerous, aggressive behaviour without seeing it could make the situation worse, especially if the supposed reason behind it is wrong. As the dog in question is a collie, I'd think protection of it's owners a less likely explanation than the urge to herd gone beyond normal parameters.
> 
> Everyone here is NOT making the same assumptions. I'm making different ones to yours, for a start. And wrong advice could be worse than no advice.


Even if my advice is wrong, I completely disagree with the fact that it could make it worse. All your doing is making visitors be seen as a nice thibg, how the hell could that go wrong! The method is proven to work.

Yes I understand how you could see that's what I ment but actually I feel it's a completely different thing altogether. If in the dogs mind there was no clear protector, then the dog is only doing what is natural. I do not think for a second that he is doing it because he thinks he is in charge.

And on the point that we all have to be there to assess it properly, it would not be helpful to just answer..."oh I'm sorry I can't help you as I can't be there to see the behaviour properly"

What I meant was that we all have to ashume in here, no, it may not be the same assumptions but we still all do not know about the behaviour and so advise purely on what we think.

My method would NOT make the behaviour worse. If you explain to me how that's possible then I could maybe learn from this instead of arguing
I am only training. 
So regardless of your opinion. Help me realise how I could improve on this method, or drop it.

I did not come on here to argue, I came on here to learn, and hopefuly teach at the same time. Exchange ideas and methods.
The dog will be taught to wait patiently on a mat whilst they open the door. The dog will learn that visitors will bring treats and will create a good association with them. He will be given treats and lots of praise and it will certainly make a big improvement and will not make it worse. If you think it will, I would like to know how, as I want to learn the faults in the things I do, but it also has to make sense.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

My first question is, what is your domestic control like with NO visitors?

If your dog will not go to his bed, be quiet, settle and generally be obedient to you on your own in your home, you have not got much chance of achieving this when visitors come.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Even if my advice is wrong, I completely disagree with the fact that it could make it worse. All your doing is making visitors be seen as a nice thibg, how the hell could that go wrong! The method is proven to work.
> 
> What I meant was that we all have to ashume in here, no, it may not be the same assumptions but we still all do not know about the behaviour and so advise purely on what we think.
> 
> ...


You gave someone coming on this forum, who was seeking input and advice, exactly that. Which was a kind, sweet thing to do.

However....

......Burrowzig IS right....there ARE some flaws in your step-by-step approach.

Firstly, it is absolutly possible that it MAY have a deleterious effect the OP's dog behaviour. Beause what is such a neat , easy-to-follow process ON PAPER is highly unlikely to play out like this in real life with a less than cooperative dog.

NONE of us know what is going on in the head of Kebars9's dog which lead him to behave in this manner. None of us WILL ever know, either ...and that includes his owners who know the dog inside out.

Which is why one has to be devilishly careful to not unwittingly exacerbate it. Which MAY happen if the dog say, concluded, that the behaviour, or an aspect of the behaviour, is being rewarded.

Which you advised to do. I'm thinking that IF it would be as easy as a click/treat for laying down calmy and continuously...the OP wouldn't have the problem.

Secondly, whilst your advice to enlist a stooge to practice "good doorbell behaviour" isn't wrong....it isn't terribly practical. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who patiently stands outside the door, in the cold, waiting for you to train the dog to lie down and stay there. There is no way a UPS courier, postman, or anyone not prepared to wait at nauseam outside - which are 99 % of all people ringing the doorbell - would go along with that. Least of all on a daily basis!

Which sort of nixes that idea. Since it really doesn't improve matters if ONE visitor assists with this training but all others don't.

The best, most experienced, behaviourist in the world would HAVE to see the dog. In situ. And then they can have a stab at as to which intervention MAY help. Which is all they can do - make an educated guess. But it is still a guess.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You gave someone coming on this forum, who was seeking input and advice, exactly that. Which was a kind, sweet thing to do.
> 
> However....
> 
> ...


Thank you, this is information I am happy to learn from.
When I advise clients to do this task I usually ask them to ask a friend or a family member that they don't see very often to help. I have someone who I take along to use as the guinea pig shall we say, lol.

I do understand that the dog may not obey in the way you may wish but that's why I try to make it as simple and understandable as you can, I always advise not to move on until he shows progress and this can take days/ weeks. I also advise for someone to be holding him on the lead so therefore if he does not obey, they can easily remove him and it will not go any further. Can you see why I was saying it couldn't make it worse lol? 
In my mind I had already written what needed to be done to make sure the dog didn't have a chance to bite the visitors or for it I get out of hand.

Thank you for letting me know, I can add all of these things into concideration of my methods now.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Thank you, this is information I am happy to learn from.
> When I advise clients to do this task I usually ask them to ask a friend or a family member that they don't see very often to help. I have someone who I take along to use as the guinea pig shall we say, lol.
> 
> I do understand that the dog may not obey in the way you may wish but that's why I try to make it as simple and understandable as you can, I always advise not to move on until he shows progress and this can take days/ weeks. I also advise for someone to be holding him on the lead so therefore if he does not obey, they can easily remove him and it will not go any further. Can you see why I was saying it couldn't make it worse lol?
> ...


It worries me greatly you are no were near qualified and your going to people and giving advise? Are you insured? Not being qualfied means you have no idea of the knock in effects your "proven" methods could have, it's not about proving methods it's about understand why a dog does what it does! I applaud the fact you want to learn but I think your playing with fire going out giving unqualified advise at this stags, totally understand you need to learn but what your doing now could be very dangerous.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Meezey said:


> It worries me greatly you are no were near qualified and your going to people and giving advise? Are you insured? Not being qualfied means you have no idea of the knock in effects your "proven" methods could have, it's not about proving methods it's about understand why a dog does what it does! I applaud the fact you want to learn but I think your playing with fire going out giving unqualified advise at this stags, totally understand you need to learn but what your doing now could be very dangerous.


The people I am working with have called me knowing I am only training, I state in my adverts that I am only training and I never tell them something I can not back up. They are all aware of it.
As long as the owner contacts me knowing I'm training then I think it's the best way to learn as I am learning how dogs work and why problems are happening.

I even double check on the phone that they know I'm only training and I can only offers advice an try lots of methods and they at and state in writing. They say they just want to try all they can. They know I'm just trying to learn as well.

I cannot afford to do a course yet so I'm doing all I can to learn from so many books , and also networking with other behaviourists.

I also have had feedback from various people stating that methods are working. It's a learning curve and I am completely aware of the risks. I would not do it if the owners were not aware.

I get the feeling I am being ganged up on. I only came here to learn 

Also in my adverts I only advertised to ask to help with anxiety an rescorce guarding as that is my main study at the moment, I don't take on anything more than I think I can.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> The people I am working with have called me knowing I am only training, I state in my adverts that I am only training and I never tell them something I can not back up. They are all aware of it.
> As long as the owner contacts me knowing I'm training then I think it's the best way to learn as I am learning how dogs work and why problems are happening.
> 
> I even double check on the phone that they know I'm only training and I can only offers advice an try lots of methods and they at and state in writing. They say they just want to try all they can. They know I'm just trying to learn as well.
> ...


Sorry you feel ganged up on, but I still think your on very dangerous ground, not being qualified and advertising to help people. Again I understand that you need to learn and I again applaud you for that.

Are you insured? What happens if someone is badly bitten as a result of the information you give? Or worse still a child is badly hurt? Of course people are going to go to you, your offering service for free, and most people are desperate for help, which makes it even more worrying. Resource guarding can be a pretty serious and complex issue and if deal with wrong can cause bites. Reading books is not education. Your not even following a course laid out by professionals.

Not "ganging up" on you just letting you know I think you are on shakey ground. Most course do not ask to do daily, work with subjects, they have residential course with qualified instructors to let you get hands on experience. What your doing is dangerous for you, the dogs, and their owners and family..


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Sorry you feel ganged up on, but I still think your on very dangerous ground, not being qualified and advertising to help people. Again I understand that you need to learn and I again applaud you for that.
> 
> Are you insured? What happens if someone is badly bitten as a result of the information you give? Or worse still a child is badly hurt? Of course people are going to go to you, your offering service for free, and most people are desperate for help, which makes it even more worrying. Resource guarding can be a pretty serious and complex issue and if deal with wrong can cause bites. Reading books is not education. Your not even following a course laid out by professionals.
> 
> Not "ganging up" on you just letting you know I think you are on shakey ground. Most course do not ask to do daily, work with subjects, they have residential course with qualified instructors to let you get hands on experience. What your doing is dangerous for you, the dogs, and their owners and family..


Well thank you for letting me know but I am not stupid and will not put myself in a situation where people will get hurt, I won't deal with situations with children and I am educated enough to know how to go about the situation to avoid conflict. For one, methods I use do not have a chance for a "rescourse guarding" dog to get angry and bite, as you start very early in the basics and don't even try To take anything away until you have completed a variety of methods and can see an improvement.

I understand it worries you, but no one will know to what extent I have learned. You have to trust I would not create a situation in which it could go wrong.

I understand your worries, I can not afford a course yet, and to tell you the truth I have only worked with three owners as all three have been successful.

I was not even planning to continue to offer my services. I am in the middle of a financial situation and in need of a job. I was sick to death of not being able to better myself in the job I would love to do in the end. I am doing it to get some good understanding of why problems occur and if I think it to risky I say no.

I have not delt with a dog that even had a chance to go wrong. Please understand it probably sounds worse than it is.

No I am not insured because like I said I can not afford it and it's a lot of money for something I have only offered for the past month and was planning to stop as soon as I get a job. It's helping me to learn and I have learned more from working with dogs than I did just reading. My plans are to get as many courses under my belt as possible but at the moment I can not do that. Not everyone is in the situation to do that.

I understand your worry but I would like to move on from the subject. Let the people who are contacting me be responsible for if they want to risk asking me to help. I would never do anything in life otherwise

I can't stress enough how I make sure they know I am only training. And I know they would accept anyway but I'm sure responsible adults are not going to be so desperate that they will put people at risk jut to get it for free. I will not deal with something I can't handle and I also let them know that I don't have any qualifications.
But from someone in my situation, just reading and watching videos was not enough, I really wante to be out there gaining experience so I asked around.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

If you do not have professional indemnity insurance you are heading for a very big fall, financially........................


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> If you do not have professional indemnity insurance you are heading for a very big fall, financially........................


Listen , I am not even going to become a canine behaviourist for at least 10 or 20 years so can you stop assuming I don't know what I am doing? I will have insurance, I'm only 21 an I am not planning to become qualified for many many years! For heavens sake let's move off of the subject and let this thread be about what it is supposed to be for. Stop getting involved in peoples career an making it sound like they are going to fail! You are supposed to support people wanting to learn. People on here need to start being more understanding and ask questions instead of assuming I'm not planning on getting insurance at one point.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Sorry you feel ganged up on, but I still think your on very dangerous ground, not being qualified and advertising to help people. Again I understand that you need to learn and I again applaud you for that.
> 
> Are you insured? What happens if someone is badly bitten as a result of the information you give? Or worse still a child is badly hurt? Of course people are going to go to you, your offering service for free, and most people are desperate for help, which makes it even more worrying. Resource guarding can be a pretty serious and complex issue and if deal with wrong can cause bites. *Reading books is not education*. Your not even following a course laid out by professionals.
> 
> Not "ganging up" on you just letting you know I think you are on shakey ground. Most course do not ask to do daily, work with subjects, they have residential course with qualified instructors to let you get hands on experience. What your doing is dangerous for you, the dogs, and their owners and family..


Not to lock horns with you, Meezey - and, incidentally, I would concur with a lot - but the " Reading books is not education" statement baffles me.

Deeply.

Knowledge can be aquired in many forms, ONE of which is through formal education. This involves the study of books. Otherwise - aside from waiting to gain life experience, undertaking prolonged observation and some such.... which may take a couple of decades or more - how DOES one aquire it? It isn't like whoever runs canine behavioural courses aquired their knowledge via divine interventions or sermons from the Holy Mount. They studied books and went to lectures.

Whether any of this actually represents "meaningful knowledge" is another kettle of fish which can be debated until the cows come home.

For what it's worth....the most DANGEROUS "experts" I have ever encountered were those in love with their own supposed expertise. They had stopped to carefully evaluate the soundness of their own advice via a combination of lofty arrogance and ignorance hidden by their supposed credentials. Which are often woefully inadequate.

But since neither of it applies to the OP, I am amazed at how harshly you judge the advice given. Even though the OP went to great length in detailing her current restrictions.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Listen , I am not even going to become a canine behaviourist for at least 10 or 20 years so can you stop assuming I don't know what I am doing? I will have insurance, I'm only 21 an I am not planning to become qualified for many many years! For heavens sake let's move off of the subject and let this thread be about what it is supposed to be for. Stop getting involved in peoples career an making it sound like they are going to fail! You are supposed to support people wanting to learn. People on here need to start being more understanding and ask questions instead of assuming I'm not planning on getting insurance at one point.


Well you obviously do NOT know what you are doing as a) you are not qualified b) you have no professional indemnity insurance and yet you ARE going out and giving advice to people?

Are you doing this for free?

Or are you getting paid.

In either case, should the advice you are doling out result in harm or loss to property, individuals etc then you could be sued, and without insurance, you could lose your home etc.

If you are a learner you should not be giving advice outside your competency and that is why COAPE, APBC and UKRCB have codes of conduct etc.

Really, would you be happy for a student to fix your car?

Anyway as you appear to know it all, you carry on delivering your "recipes" for success to people.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Not to lock horns with you, Meezey - and, incidentally, I would concur with a lot - but the " Reading books is not education" statement baffles me.
> 
> Deeply.
> 
> ...


Okay again you are reading what you want in to something, and picking the bits you want to read.

My issue, if you read properly, is nothing to do with the advise given, my issue is reading books is not education enough. Going to someones house with NO professional qualification and no insurance is dangerous, I think it's dangerous, I am entitled to my opinion. So again go back read what I wrote, and don't get your giddy knicker in just because you want to say "nah nah nah Meezey you are wrong "

I did not make comment on the advise given, I should have written reading is not the correct and only education, happy? sorry my dyslexia means I often don't post all the words :yikes: so shoot me..

I can read and only read about sky diving, that doesn't give me the knowledge to jump out of a plane with no formal instruction.

I can read all I want about driving, it doesn't give me the knowledge to drive without qualified instruction.

I can read all day every day about lion taming doesn't mean I should just jump in to pen with a lion in the zoo I need qualified instruction to do it.

If you think it's safe and responsible to let someone unqualified who has read a few books to go and work with families and their dogs so be it I' don't.

Unbaffled now Hopeattheendofthetunnel, oh and do me a favour don't be so patronising


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Okay again you are reading what you want in to something, and picking the bits you want to read.
> 
> So again go back read what I wrote, and don't get your giddy knicker in just because you want to say "nah nah nah Meezey you are wrong "
> 
> ...


Wow...you really told me off.

Being gracious and remaining reasonably polite when some disagrees with your opinion isn't exactly your forte. Maybe WalkwithmeCanine isn't the only one benefitting from a tad more education. Except...s/he is patently aware and acknowledges that she still needs it.

Patronising? Pot, kettle and some such...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Wow...you really told me off.
> 
> Being gracious and remaining reasonably polite when some disagrees with your opinion isn't exactly your forte. Maybe WalkwithmeCanine isn't the only one benefitting from a tad more education. Except...s/he is patently aware and acknowledges that she still needs it.
> 
> Patronising? Pot, kettle and some such...


No normally I am, but I do take issue with people who don't read all a post and take out of it what they want, once I get and can understand, but seems to be a theme with you, it's not like it the first or even the second time.

*Maybe WalkwithmeCanine isn't the only one benefitting from a tad more education. Except...s/he is patently aware and acknowledges that she still needs it.*

what was it oh yeah Pot, kettle and then some such  and rather like the last thread thread you got your giddy knickers on, I'll leave you to this one.. Enjoy...


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Meezey said:


> No normally I am, but I do take issue with people who don't read all a post and take out of it what they want, once I get and can understand, but seems to be a theme with you, it's not like it the first or even the second time.
> 
> *Maybe WalkwithmeCanine isn't the only one benefitting from a tad more education. Except...s/he is patently aware and acknowledges that she still needs it.*
> 
> what was it oh yeah Pot, kettle and then some such  and rather like the last thread thread you got your giddy knickers on, I'll leave you to this one.. Enjoy...


You really are strange.

The only thing you ever do if someone has the audacity to question a statement you make - and in this case it exclusively pertained to "reading books is not education" - is to get dismissive, personal and rude.

You snap at people because you can't give them the benefit of doubt that they may have meant what they said instead of meaning something different. Something which disrespects you.

And when they snap back...it is STILL their fault. And you carry on insulting them. Like the 21 year old OP who clearly tells everyone that she is still in training and learning. Or me.

How anyone is supposed to aquire knowledge and experience if not through reading books nor hands-on experience is left unanswered. How a young wannabe behaviourist just starting out will ever get the confidence in tackling complex behavioural issues of companion animals if s/he gets her head bitten off before she even starts is left open.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion. We all are. But any chance you could express it a tad more politely and respectfully? TIA.


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## WalkWithMeCanine (Nov 24, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You really are strange.
> 
> The only thing you ever do if someone has the audacity to question a statement you make - and in this case it exclusively pertained to "reading books is not education" - is to get dismissive, personal and rude.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> You really are strange.
> 
> The only thing you ever do if someone has the audacity to question a statement you make - and in this case it exclusively pertained to "reading books is not education" - is to get dismissive, personal and rude.
> 
> ...


You are again reading what you want to read in to it  because as I said in this an previous post you only read what you want in a thread, missing out all the relevant bit.

I applauded them for what they were doing.

You on the other hand are ignoring the fact, that they are advertising a service, whether FOC or not and going to people homes and working with their dogs, if you can not see the danger in that I really am concerned.

Do you seriously think it is safe for someone who has self educated with a few books to be going to people houses to give advise? With no insurance. Do you honestly think it is safe and responsible? Really?

Again I get so frustrated with you, because you ignore a lot of information and pick on one tiny bit that's not even important to the original post, and it's like beating your head against a brick wall.

If you want to applaud irresponsible dangerous behavior you do that but don't make me look like the bad guy for telling some one, it's dangerous.

Most indefinitely the last post.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Even if my advice is wrong, I completely disagree with the fact that it could make it worse. All your doing is making visitors be seen as a nice thibg, how the hell could that go wrong! The method is proven to work.
> 
> Yes I understand how you could see that's what I ment but actually I feel it's a completely different thing altogether. If in the dogs mind there was no clear protector, then the dog is only doing what is natural. I do not think for a second that he is doing it because he thinks he is in charge.
> 
> ...





WalkWithMeCanine said:


> Hello I am training as a canine behaviourist so I hope I can help. I my just be saying what your behaviourist may say lol.
> 
> I will just rattle off the methods I would offer to a client.
> 
> ...


Of course the idea that to associate visitors with good things is a good one, standard re-conditioning.

The chance of this dog going to a mat and staying on it, given the owner's description of his behaviour when visitors arrive (quoted below for ease of referral), is remote to say the least.

Having him go on a mat across the room from the door will probably prove impossible. Having him on a mat in the room once visitors are in the same room, again, seems unlikely in the extreme. Any treat-chucking at the wrong time for the dog's state of mind could re-enforce any anxiety or aggression that the dog was keying himself up to engage in. You can't expect visitors to spot the subtle nuances of how he's carrying his tail (harder to see if he's doing a down-stay to start with), or the position of his ears for example. Leads can be dropped if the dog lunges, collars can break; notwithstanding that starting with the dog in the same room as the visitors would likely be, for this dog and his extreme behaviour, way too much too soon.

I'm not a behaviourist, just some old woman with quite a lot of common sense and a good eye for behaviour patterns (invertebrates being my main field of study). If I were going to start counter-conditioning this dog, I'd start with the dog separated from any visitors by at least 2 dog control gates with at least one room between them, so he could see and hear the visitors but not get anywhere near them. And they wouldn't come into the house, just knock on the door, say hi, and go away again - and ideally this would be the behaviourist so they can observe the dog and any lessening of the intensity of his reactions through repetition. One of the owners would be near the dog to reward any calm behaviour, unlikely though this is to occur given that 'he goes berserk and is completely uncontrollable'.

WalkwithmeCanine, you say 'if he attacks, turn round with no emotion and go out the room with him'. I wouldn't allow the dog to be in a position where he could attack (and fail in his training) in the first place. Not just the training of the dog would be set back, but the safety of the humans is paramount, and there are plenty of instances where aggression is re-directed at the owners of dogs that try to stop them attacking other people or dogs.

I'd be picking up and handling the keys all the time to make him lose the association between picking up keys = owner leaving -initially from the other side of a dog control gate to spare their legs from being butted or nipped. Make a game for the dog involving the keys, like attaching a treat pouch to them and getting him to find it or give it to them.

Also use the dog control gates to get him used to being separated from his owners, without the full stress of them being absent. Owners are in a different room, owner goes out through front door and then in again round the back - make a game of it.

One of my dogs used to be a bit anxious when I went out without her, but if I went out carrying the coal bucket, she barely batted an eye - she knew I'd be straight back after filling it from the bunker outside. So if I was going out like to the dentist, I'd take the coal bucket out, leave it in the garden and bring it back in with me when I returned. Result, a calm dog. The owners of this dog could employ a similar tactic.

For such extreme behaviour though, I'd be considering something from the vet to take the edge off during the re-conditioning. A dog in a state of panic is not in a receptive state for learning. A mild sedative could be a real help, or try something like Zylkene which I find an absolute godsend for firework night.



Kebars9 said:


> We still have our rescue border collie, he is now 4 and a half; over the last 6 months his behaviour has worsened considerably in that he gets in a hysterical state (barking, spinning round on the spot barking ferociously) when one of us tries to leave the house. All we have to do is pick up the keys and he is there headbutting the back of our legs and sometimes collie nipping. Any attempt to calm him fails - to move him into another room whilst one of us goes out, results in absolute hysteria from him. He barks continuously, spinning round on the spot in a demented manner.
> 
> Likewise he is the same with any visitors, in fact we are now at the point where we cannot have visitors to the house because if he collie nips them that would be dreadful. As it is, even with people he knows, who come to see us, he barks ferociously if they try to move from a sitting position. If anyone comes to the door he goes berserk and is completely uncontrollable.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2013)

Kebars9 said:


> Yes he knows the basic down stay and the sit, recall etc.... *but if we tell him to do the stay and then walk towards the door once he knows we are dressed to go out or knows we have picked our keys up none of it will be obeyed*... it's as if a red mist comes down and he is then quite oblivious to any instruction. He has only started this extreme behaviour in the last six months.


Sounds like he gets too aroused to respond, so no, you wouldnt get compliance with known cues in that state.
You have to figure out where his trigger point is and work from there. It may be a steady process of desensitization to triggers like keys and walking towards the door which is hard to do if you dont know where the starting point is. I imagine hell also need a lot of work in impulse control and getting his excitement levels down. 
I do hope you get some help from the behaviorist. I think thats your best bet a this point.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> For such extreme behaviour though, I'd be considering something from the vet to take the edge off during the re-conditioning. A dog in a state of panic is not in a receptive state for learning. *A mild sedative could be a real help, or try something like Zylkene* which I find an absolute godsend for firework night.


I think this is an excellent suggestion for the OP and I wondered myself whether this might be a helpful addition ( after I hit "submit reply", of course) in conjunction with BMod.

It sounds as if the dog is completely trapped within his current behavioural pattern and trying to tackle it via behavioural intervention alone might be a bit akin to asking a blind person to try and see. Whereby they gladly would...if they only could.

An effective anxiolytic could also expedite the effects of competent behavioural intervention...and it did sound as if time was of essence, as the owners were despondent by his behaviour.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

wow..... I never meant for this thread to erupt into an argument.

Thanks to all who have offered advice - and re this quote:

_It sounds as if the dog is completely trapped within his current behavioural pattern and trying to tackle it via behavioural intervention alone might be a bit akin to asking a blind person to try and see. Whereby they gladly would...if they only could._

This is very true. He has taught himself these behavioural reactions and nothing will get him out of them. We have tried double dose of Stay Calm but it has made no difference.

Even if I go into the living room, when my partner is sitting on the sofa, but I don't sit down, he is beside himself with anxiety because he can tell I am not going to just sit down and stay there. It might mean - horror of horrors, that I am thinking of going out! If I say anything to him then he will spin round barking hysterically. The spaniel pup is also now barking far more at visitors than she should and as we live in a very small house it is difficult if not impossible to keep them apart and deal with the collie on his own.

Basically he is obedient, he is a joy to take out; recall is superb; he knows sit, stay, lie down, you can control him with your voice if you want him to stay in the room or something, UNLESS he thinks one of us is going to go out, or someone is approaching the house.

We have found a wonderful trainer used to collies and she has given us some good tips to try; including change of food to raw diet.

However I now do not think WE can deal with this problem given the small house we live in and the fact that we have to think of our spaniel, now 19 months old - we do not want to ruin her personality as well. It is getting increasingly difficult to live with our collie boy much as we love him and it might be that if we cannot find a good home for him with someone who can deal with the problems he has, that he has to go back to the rescue centre from where we got him. If someone came forward to take him on, whom we approved of and thought it would be better for him, we would let him go. Many tears would be shed but at the end of the day we have our sanity to consider and also the welfare of our other dog.

Thank you all again for your input.


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## penny17 (Nov 25, 2013)

It would be best to phone Wiccaweys for advice. You will also need to check the agreement you signed with Wiccaweys when you took your collie on. I would presume there would be a clause about them retaining ownership.


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## Kebars9 (Jul 1, 2010)

Many thanks for all replies. Our lovely boy has now been returned to the rescue centre who will assess him and see if they can find a home for him. It has been a heartbreaking decision for us to make but we really had no option and comfort ourselves that he now has a fresh chance to get sorted out.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think that was a wise decision as he seemed far too much of a handful for you and I can imagine the immense pressure you were under. Hopefully they will be able to work through some of those issues with him.


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