# Probiotics following possible severe gastroenteritis???? (Sorry, this is long)



## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm really not sure what to do and would appreciate any thoughts and maybe a recommendation for a probiotic if appropriate.

There appears to be something going round locally that has affected quite a few dogs and Poppy was affected recently. No spraying has been going on so local consensus is it's a bug or something. We tend to go on the beach for all our walks and Poppy socialises with a few local dogs we know but doesn't interact with dogs she doesn't know.

3 weeks ago she started with soft stools which progressed to proper diarrhoea, which progressed from cow pat to orangey coloured lumpy liquid, along with one incidence of vomiting the previous meal. I took her to the vet along with samples of the two lots of diarrhoea which he looked at. He gave her a thorough examination. No temperature, well hydrated, nice pink gums, no sore tummy, good heart rate. He said no infection so no need for antibiotics and gave 3 days worth of Promax. I put her on chicken then white fish. Her poos firmed up and after about 5 days everything was back to normal so I put her back on her normal food. During this time she was not 'ill' she was her normal self.

Two weeks passed and these last few days it's back (similar story with my friends dog). This time it's been yellow stools, progressed to soft yellow stools, then yellow diarrhoea. Back on white fish with rice. I got some ProKolin paste, two and a half days in (Saturday) no change and she refuses to take it any more. Saturday morning the yellow diarrhoea turns to liquid, when she poo'd it was like a tap had been turned on. She'd had scrambled egg for breakfast. Vomited liquid, followed a couple of hours later by all the scrambled egg coming back looking the same as it went down. A bit later more liquid vomit with red specks (tiny specs of blood).

I rang the emergency vet Saturday lunchtime, told him everything and that she was now quite lethargic. He said not to feed her for 24 hours and ensure she drank water. Later that afternoon, trying to poo and all that came out was blood, not gushing out but mid-red large drops of blood. In and out of the garden straining to poo, only blood which got much darker, almost black. 

I rang the vet again, he said keep an eye on her but if necessary she could go in and be put on a drip but didn't really think it was necessary. She wasn't dehydrated so I didn't think it wise to put her through the separation (she is very nervous and sensitive) or the car drive as it's 30 miles to the main surgery. Talks about a steroid injection but they don't really like to give them (fair enough). I asked if the poo samples I'd taken in last time had been tested, was told no they don't test them at a first appointment because it's expensive. Booked appointment at local vet surgery for this morning.

Gave her one tablespoonful of fish and rice at tea time last night as she hadn't been sick for about 30 hours. She kept that down so I gave her another tablespoonful before bed. 

Got up this morning and for the first time since last Thursday there was no poo (or blood) been passed in the night. She was quite perky and looking for food so I have her two tablespoonful of fish and rice.

Went to vet appointment this morning. There are about 6 vets altogether so you don't often get to see the same one, it just depends on whose turn it is to come to the local surgery. We saw a lady today, went through everything and she saw the notes on the computer. Another examination, no temperature but some dark blood on the thermometer, heart good, gums good, not dehydrated but she has lost weight (to be expected) and lost condition. She hadn't passed anything since yesterday afternoon. I was told she's had severe gastroenteritis.

I was told to keep her on fish or chicken and rice, when poos firm up gradually start adding in some of her proper food until she's fully back on it. I asked about maybe giving her a probiotic and was asked if I meant antibiotic (???). No I said, a probiotic to build back up the good bacteria in her system. She said did I mean Promax. I said no, not just a three day course, but maybe 2 or 3 weeks or so of a probiotic supplement. I was then asked if I meant what we (as humans) would take and I answered no, a doggy probiotic. Turns out she didn't realise you could get them. I asked if it should be one with multiple strains of probiotics or just the same as what is in Promax and ProKolin and she agreed a multi strain might be a good idea (losing a bit of faith by now).

She's had another small meal of fish and rice at lunchtime and been out to poo since. No blood but we've now got orangey coloured lumpy almost liquid diarrhoea. I expected a bit of proper poo now that she's had some food but was hoping it might just be soft rather than lumpy liquid again.

Any thoughts? Should I go back tomorrow and get some Promax, although that is only 3 days worth.

Or is there a probiotic that might help? Any recommendations?

Or do you think it's still early days and her poo might firm up?

I know we can't give medical advice, just really looking for some reassurance I suppose, maybe someone has had a similar experience.

Thanks for reading if you got this far


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Neds currently got the squits and he's having white fish, canned pumpkin and Yudigest http://www.lintbells.com/yudigest-dog

I know whats caused his upset though.

Probiotics wouldnt hurt, but after such a prolonged period of time, id be going for a faecal test just in case there is something underlying.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I think I would be dropping off another sample of poo and insisting on it being tested so that if she does have an infection she can have the correct antibiotic/treatment. When Arthur first came to us he had soft stools/intermittent diarrhoea but no temperature - his sample came back with campylobacter.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Nonnie said:


> Neds currently got the squits and he's having white fish, canned pumpkin and Yudigest http://www.lintbells.com/yudigest-dog
> 
> I know whats caused his upset though.
> 
> Probiotics wouldnt hurt, but after such a prolonged period of time, id be going for a faecal test just in case there is something underlying.





rottiepointerhouse said:


> I think I would be dropping off another sample of poo and insisting on it being tested so that if she does have an infection she can have the correct antibiotic/treatment. When Arthur first came to us he had soft stools/intermittent diarrhoea but no temperature - his sample came back with campylobacter.


Thank you both. I'm a bit miffed the first sample wasn't tested because as the vet went to put the sample pots in the bin I said I'd taken them thinking they might test them. He replied, yes I suppose we could, and now I find out they weren't.

I was thinking of taking another sample in. Hopefully tomorrow she'll produce one that I can scoop up. Today's liquid offering was deposited amongst the leaves of my bluebells not yet in flower (nice!). I only have hard landscaping and small borders in my tiny garden, and she tends to use the borders and poo on the soil rather than the slabs when she goes at home. Will see what I can get.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Could be that the first bug stripped the lining of the stomach causing this nasty gastro problem (I'm no vet but there have been some nasties around recently). I'd go for something like Bionic Biotic or YuDigest Plus (both good probiotics) for longer term use, but in the short term proKolin/promax would be my choice just to try and boost the gut bacteria into action.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Sarah H said:


> Could be that the first bug stripped the lining of the stomach causing this nasty gastro problem (I'm no vet but there have been some nasties around recently). I'd go for something like Bionic Biotic or YuDigest Plus (both good probiotics) for longer term use, but in the short term proKolin/promax would be my choice just to try and boost the gut bacteria into action.


Thank you Sarah. I have half of the ProKolin left, but it is just two and a half days. Poppy wasn't so keen on that as the Promax. I'll try to get her to finish the PK off then pop to the vets to get more Promax I think, that did firm her poo up the first time. Then I can order one of the others.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

DirtyGertie said:


> Turns out she didn't realise you could get them


And she's actually qualified as a vet?
And they threw away the poo sample. Really, I'd not be at all happy with the standards in this vet practice.
Any gut issues that didn't resolve within 4 days, and during and after any course of antibiotics, I give probiotics. It's not worth going through the hassle of getting the gut flora re-stocked and re-balanced not to. 
That's on myself as well as the dogs.


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## Mum2Heidi (Feb 17, 2010)

Sorry to hear Poppy (and you) have had such a rough time.
I always recommended Bionic Biotics until recently. Acts quickly and efficiently.
However, Heidi has had something ongoing and I tried Yudigest ( thinking it was something new).
Took longer to work but the results Iongterm have been amazing. 
I used the tablets(treats) but they do sachets as well. Not sure but I think they are stronger and for upsets.
If you email them, they are very helpful and will probably send you a sample.

Hope Poppy is much better very soon.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> And she's actually qualified as a vet?
> And they threw away the poo sample. Really, I'd not be at all happy with the standards in this vet practice.
> Any gut issues that didn't resolve within 4 days, and during and after any course of antibiotics, I give probiotics. It's not worth going through the hassle of getting the gut flora re-stocked and re-balanced not to.
> That's on myself as well as the dogs.


I know! Not too happy about it. When I rang for the first appointment I mentioned to the to the receptionist that I could bring a poo sample in for testing and she said that would be a good idea. I said to the vet when he went to throw it away that I thought they would want to test it and he said yes, I suppose they could. Then when I asked the emergency vet this weekend if it had been tested he said no, they don't test samples at the first appointment because it's expensive.

I shall collect another one when possible and ask them to test it. Trouble is, this local surgery is 30 miles away from the main surgery, the sample wouldn't get back to the main surgery at the earliest at the end of the day, maybe the next day, and I don't know if they send them say, I have a feeling they do. Not sure if the sample would still be viable.

I'm not over impressed with them really, you don't often see the same one so they don't know you or your dog. I always used a small practice that is half an hour by train, always saw the same vet who knew Poppy and how nervous she is, but it's a two hour wait for the train back and I can't walk around for that long now and no dog friendly cafes to wait in. I don't drive so it's not really an option any more to use the original vet.

I really was surprised when she didn't seem to know about probiotics for dogs. I wondered if she thought I was a bit strange, especially when she asked if I meant antibiotics! I use probiotics too, have done for quite some time.

In her defense, she was very good when Poppy went for her Lepto booster a few weeks ago when I explained how nervous she was!


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Mum2Heidi said:


> Sorry to hear Poppy (and you) have had such a rough time.
> I always recommended Bionic Biotics until recently. Acts quickly and efficiently.
> However, Heidi has had something ongoing and I tried Yudigest ( thinking it was something new).
> Took longer to work but the results Iongterm have been amazing.
> ...


Thank you @Mum2Heidi I had decided to try the Yudigest and will look at it today. It's good to have another recommendation for it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Protexin who make the prokolin also do a probiotic that you give longer term called pro soluable

http://www.protexin.com/products/veterinary/dogs/pro-soluble/6159


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

DirtyGertie said:


> he said no, they don't test samples at the first appointment because it's expensive.


What a strange thing to say - firstly it's not them paying for it and secondly testing can often save money by getting a diagnosis quickly and going straight to correct treatment. Without it there can be multiple visits to the vet and all sorts of things prescribed - oh hang on, think I get it now.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Protexin who make the prokolin also do a probiotic that you give longer term called pro soluable
> 
> http://www.protexin.com/products/veterinary/dogs/pro-soluble/6159


Thank you SDH, I'll take a look, I haven't ordered anything yet.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Protexin who make the prokolin also do a probiotic that you give longer term called pro soluable
> 
> http://www.protexin.com/products/veterinary/dogs/pro-soluble/6159


Thank you SDH, I'll take a look, I haven't ordered anything yet.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

havoc said:


> What a strange thing to say - firstly it's not them paying for it and secondly testing can often save money by getting a diagnosis quickly and going straight to correct treatment. Without it there can be multiple visits to the vet and all sorts of things prescribed - oh hang on, think I get it now.


I just popped into the vets on our walk, bought another syringe of Promax and got a receipt for yesterday as I think this could possibly turn into an insurance claim. (Oh, and they charge £7 for filling in anything on your claim form).

I asked about taking in a poo sample and having it tested, vet said it's expensive but looked it up for me anyway. For the most comprehensive one which tests for parasites, campylobacter, etc, is £60. I really was expecting 'expensive' to mean three figures!

My friend's dog who had this, but not passing blood, two bouts of it one after the other like Poppy, vet visits plus antibiotics (I wonder why, same surgery, different vet though!), Promax plus special food (of course) and her bill came to £96. I think I'd rather spend £60 at the start and know what we're dealing with!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

DirtyGertie said:


> I just popped into the vets on our walk, bought another syringe of Promax and got a receipt for yesterday as I think this could possibly turn into an insurance claim. (Oh, and they charge £7 for filling in anything on your claim form).
> 
> I asked about taking in a poo sample and having it tested, vet said it's expensive but looked it up for me anyway. For the most comprehensive one which tests for parasites, campylobacter, etc, is £60. I really was expecting 'expensive' to mean three figures!
> 
> My friend's dog who had this, but not passing blood, two bouts of it one after the other like Poppy, vet visits plus antibiotics (I wonder why, same surgery, different vet though!), Promax plus special food (of course) and her bill came to £96. I think I'd rather spend £60 at the start and know what we're dealing with!


Yeah they could have just asked you if you were happy to spend £60 on the test at the start!


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Being devils advocate..but usually a 3 day stool sample is better than one, however you can still 'miss' bugs either way. Maybe if this was explained to begin with, it would have helped, adding any probiotic would not make a difference per se...the bad bugs should still be present.

As soon as I read your post, I did consider it may be what poor Arthur had, that RPH stated. That can spread like wildfire...and people just presume, dogs can be loose, or have the runs, because that's what dogs do..and it really can have classic intermittent problems too, and some show really bad symptoms whereas others not so bad, like humans really. Some of us get mild symptoms, others not so. Obviously out walking, you can pick up after your dog best you can, but its not easy, and heavy traffic areas where dogs are walked are usually how dogs become ill rapidly. People find at major dog meet ups etc, sometimes dogs become ill afterwards, with things like stomach bugs.

Am actually surprised on the second bout of this problem, you were not just given antibiotics as just in case, but some people meaning vets work differently!

Hope you get to the bottom of this..no pun intended, and hope Poppy feels better soon.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> Being devils advocate..but usually a 3 day stool sample is better than one, however you can still 'miss' bugs either way. Maybe if this was explained to begin with, it would have helped, adding any probiotic would not make a difference per se...the bad bugs should still be present.
> 
> As soon as I read your post, I did consider it may be what poor Arthur had, that RPH stated. That can spread like wildfire...and people just presume, dogs can be loose, or have the runs, because that's what dogs do..and it really can have classic intermittent problems too, and some show really bad symptoms whereas others not so bad, like humans really. Some of us get mild symptoms, others not so. Obviously out walking, you can pick up after your dog best you can, but its not easy, and heavy traffic areas where dogs are walked are usually how dogs become ill rapidly. People find at major dog meet ups etc, sometimes dogs become ill afterwards, with things like stomach bugs.
> 
> ...


Thank you @lullabydream

The vet never mentioned a three day stool sample this morning and she knows I intend to take one in as soon as Poppy starts pooing again - nothing at all today despite 4 small meals yesterday and three meals today, now up to her normal amount of food per day which is 180g although still fish and rice (but she just polished off the last of the cat's 'cos I wasn't quick enough, it wasn't much though).

With the 3 day sample, is it OK to keep it in the fridge until all have been collected? I thought they should be as fresh as possible.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Fresh as possible is usually urine..and honestly its the usual protocol a 3 day sample, especially for the bugs they will be looking for...so yes fridge will be fine.

I am really surprised because basically the symptoms you describe are colitis, which is an umbrella term for inflammation of the intestine, with the symptoms being intermittent. It can be bugs responsible, food problems the list go on and on..many posts here have had people pulling their hair out automatically thinking its food related as soon as symptoms start and colitis is mentions when in reality its caused by nasty little bugs and antibiotics kick the little blighters in to touch although the course might be long! Or people like me, end up with a dog who had major flares, no real reason found do think lamb triggers her, but she can eat anything and Tess looked skeletal after losing so much weight...its very trial and error. In all colitis cases I know its been 3 day samples taken, in case they miss something, and they still can. Paying just for one sample, I can see where a vet would say its expensive and not cost effective personally. I feel like dealing with different vets, maybe you have had some information not mentioned, as there has been presumptions made that maybe the first vet should have explained certain thing and has not...or just lack of communication. I love my vets, but they have 2 main ones and have fleeting ones over times that have given opposite advise of others etc, and left me confused or I have had to ask them didn't you read my notes...however I understand they are all human and just hope they are having a bad day and they are letting their professionalism slip just this once, and its just me its happened to me, thankfully.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> Fresh as possible is usually urine..and honestly its the usual protocol a 3 day sample, especially for the bugs they will be looking for...so yes fridge will be fine.
> 
> I am really surprised because basically the symptoms you describe are colitis, which is an umbrella term for inflammation of the intestine, with the symptoms being intermittent. It can be bugs responsible, food problems the list go on and on..many posts here have had people pulling their hair out automatically thinking its food related as soon as symptoms start and colitis is mentions when in reality its caused by nasty little bugs and antibiotics kick the little blighters in to touch although the course might be long! Or people like me, end up with a dog who had major flares, no real reason found do think lamb triggers her, but she can eat anything and Tess looked skeletal after losing so much weight...its very trial and error. In all colitis cases I know its been 3 day samples taken, in case they miss something, and they still can. Paying just for one sample, I can see where a vet would say its expensive and not cost effective personally. I feel like dealing with different vets, maybe you have had some information not mentioned, as there has been presumptions made that maybe the first vet should have explained certain thing and has not...or just lack of communication. I love my vets, but they have 2 main ones and have fleeting ones over times that have given opposite advise of others etc, and left me confused or I have had to ask them didn't you read my notes...however I understand they are all human and just hope they are having a bad day and they are letting their professionalism slip just this once, and its just me its happened to me, thankfully.


@lullabydream Does the 3 day sample have to be 3 consecutive days? At the moment Poppy is only going alternate days and it could be a fair time from collecting the first one to then being actually tested.

She's got one more day of Promax left and then I'll start the YuDigest, it has the same probiotics as the Promax. Yesterday (Friday) we had the first firmish poo but still basically yellow but that might be because she's still on fish and rice only. Previous poo was Wednesday and started firmish but ended up soft. Monday was liquid. So it's going in the right direction thanks to the Promax.

Just spoken to another friend and find out that her dog was one of the first to get this, yellow poo, diarrhoea, and she ended up pooing blood like Poppy. Same surgery, different vet, and she was given antibiotic same as my other friend's dog even though that one was told there was no infection. It really is quite frustrating when they don't all sing from the same hymn sheet, especially as there seems to be an epidemic locally! You'd think they'd want to get to the bottom of it.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Well its usually 3 consecutive days, if they are performing, if not you can only go on what is given. So 3 different days should be ok.

I would wish antibiotics would be given as standard, however I know vets try their hardest to keep costs low and sometimes a bland diet is all that's needed, and let the 'bug' run its course. So there would be overuse of them, and then it would be those who complain vets just want to be in it for the money brigade!...however I have say gone for routine vaccinations and learnt from my vets that a bug has been going around because they have mentioned it to me. So with this knowledge maybe, they should have past the information on to you, and if you were already aware because x, y and z had already had it, they could have at least given you the option to treat from the beginning as the bug, as it does sound like its responsive to antibiotics.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

lullabydream said:


> Well its usually 3 consecutive days, if they are performing, if not you can only go on what is given. So 3 different days should be ok.
> 
> I would wish antibiotics would be given as standard, however I know vets try their hardest to keep costs low and sometimes a bland diet is all that's needed, and let the 'bug' run its course. So there would be overuse of them, and then it would be those who complain vets just want to be in it for the money brigade!...however I have say gone for routine vaccinations and learnt from my vets that a bug has been going around because they have mentioned it to me. So with this knowledge maybe, they should have past the information on to you, and if you were already aware because x, y and z had already had it, they could have at least given you the option to treat from the beginning as the bug, as it does sound like its responsive to antibiotics.


Thanks lullalbydream.

Nothing produced as yet today. I'll see how she goes, what it's like and if it gets no better then I'll start collecting.

Thanks for your input


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

One more question please @lullabydream (sorry :Shy )

The three samples - separate containers or can they all go in one container?

Still producing alternate days only but today's was firm (finished Promax today, starting YuDigest tomorrow), part yellow, part normal colour. Still on fish and rice, will start gradually adding a bit of normal food in a couple of days as per vet's suggestion.

She is bright as a button though


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Same container! Its all going to analysed together. I was given a specific pot, and squished it down as I collected samples!

Its just so they can have a good look to find something and less likely to miss something over 3 days...or what you are doing...its like taking a biopsy sometimes they miss the correct bit so have to take another. That's not to say, nothing will be missed as I have said before, but less likely.

Hopefully the fact she is still not right, will be good enough for a course of antibiotics. If they help with this nasty 'bug'


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