# Pregnant Labrador or not...?



## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

she looks like my girl looked at 4 weeks ellie is 6 weeks thursday when i get my camera sorted il post more pics il post a pic of her at 4 weeks xx


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

this is at 26 days so 2 days before 4 weeks...xx


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

then day 32 (pic1)...nipples not that enlarged then next morning, day 33 (pic2) there was a huge change in the nipples the pic does show really now big a diffrence! i was shocked just over night!


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Was this a planned mating? I'm guessing if you saw her actually mate with a dog then you would have more of an idea as to whether she was in whelp or not.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

just because she was mated doesnt mean she IS pregnant x


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

No, but a planned mating done appropriately, with an experienced stud dog and the help of the handler, will give you a much better chance


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

staceydawlz said:


> just because she was mated doesnt mean she IS pregnant x


That's obviously not what I'm getting at  I'm saying, the OP has not mentioned whether it was a planned mating or not and we would have a better indication of whether her bitch was in whelp if she had actually intentionally mated her.


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i only hand one tie too and a few slip matings...did you witness the tie?xx


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> and about 10 slip matings


 What stud did you use if you don't mind me asking?


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

no problem im happy to help however i can xx


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Love4Dogs said:


> One is scotland called bruiser.


Did he have a Kennel Club name?


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Love4Dogs said:


> All health checks were done also.


Please, please make my day, and tell me what was done on the Health Test front for both dogs. You know when you end up reading lots of not so great stuff about dog breeding all over the place and irresponsible matings, you just want to read someone has done their stuff?! I'm having one of those days....and it would be so nice to read something positive on a thread today ;-)

Love4dogs, you can of course completely ignore my rather selfish if not noisey plea ;-)


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Love4Dogs said:


> I cannot remmeber his kc registered name at the moment as i am waiting to see if she is indeed pregnant and then all information will be passed on when i go to pay stud.


I hate to be the one to say it, but I am passionate about my dogs, it is a little odd that you can't remember the stud dog's name. I've looked at numerous for my bitch, and know the names of all of them. I'm sorry if that seems critical, but so many people churn out Labs, particularly chocolate Labs, and more recently fox reds, because of their popularity alone. I'm not against pet breeding, in fact both my girls are from a pet breeder, and I'd class myself as that (if I ever do breed a litter), but so many people go into it without the necessary knowledge; at the end of it all, it's the dogs that suffer, and I don't mean to say that you intend for your girl to suffer, or any pups, but perhaps, going by what you've posted, you need to do an awful lot of reading up and very quickly if indeed she is pregnant


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Love4Dogs said:


> I cannot remmeber his kc registered name at the moment as i am waiting to see if she is indeed pregnant and then all information will be passed on when i go to pay stud.


Will admit, like Sleeping_lion I find that very odd. But you did see the official BVA documents for his hip scores and eye test right? and know what the results are?, and same for your girl?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> Will admit, like Sleeping_lion I find that very odd. But you did see the official BVA documents for his hip scores and eye test right? and know what the results are?, and same for your girl?


Or indeed have the correct paperwork signed for submission to the KC, which should take place at the time of mating, to verify the dog that was used?


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Love4Dogs said:


> hip and eye testing and pre breeding exam on my bitch.


Can I just ask, out of interest and again, purely being nosey, was she PRA tested also or just a clear eye cert?


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Love4Dogs said:


> Hi yes this was a planned breeding with a very experienced stud dog. She did tie once and about 10 slip matings. I however am not experienced as this is her first litter altho stud dog had fathered 10 litters. Holly went to stud dogs house for a week and then i took him to ours as the woman who had the stud dog had to go to england for the weekend so i kept him for 5days. Its been 25days since matings.
> I have heard not all ties result in pregnancy. All health checks were done also.


 you took the stud dog to your house for 5 days  

How exactly could the stud dog owner legally testify that it witnessed all matings for the purposes of registration

Why did you need 12 days when a bitch if fertile for what " a few days" at most


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Love4Dogs said:


> Look i know youz are all professionals in dog breeding i was merely asking if it sounds/looks as though my bitch might be pregnant.. I am certain the male is hipand eye tested i seen certificate i obviously know my female is certified. PRA testing no but i do know this is an important test but not essential. I know the male is kcregistered and i know my bitch is also. I am fed up answering these type of questions. So kindly asking youz to give me a break.


We are NOT professional breeders - we are hobby breeders - I've bred just THREE litters.

PRA IS an essential test - if both your dog and the sire are genetically carriers or affected - then some of the pups could go blind - and whilst the onset age of PRA is normally high - the risks are MUCH higher where either parent is genetically affected even if they are passing their eye tests.

You should have COPIES of the certificates for your own records and to give to puppy buyers - and if the stud dog is experienced (although allowing it to go to your house for 5 days in total allowing a 12 day window for mating raises all sorts of questions for me personally  I've known it done in exceptional circumstances where dogs have been brought to the UK before maiden bitches were permitted to have litters by AI - but any stud owner should be able to advise the bitch owner on what can be done to ensure maximum chance of the bitch getting in whelp.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Love4Dogs said:


> Look i know youz are all professionals in dog breeding i was merely asking if it sounds/looks as though my bitch might be pregnant.. I am certain the male is hipand eye tested i seen certificate i obviously know my female is certified. PRA testing no but i do know this is an important test but not essential. I know the male is kcregistered and i know my bitch is also. I am fed up answering these type of questions. So kindly asking youz to give me a break.


Well I'm certainly not a 'professional in dog breeding', I have never bred a litter and never will 

The PRA is essential and such a simple and relatively noninvasive test to carry out. Elbow testing is the only one, imo, that is more of a hassle as a dog will have to go under GA to be screened again if they have already been hip scored. Still in my view, the technology for testing is there now, so why not use it?

From my standpoint, as someone who fosters dogs for a rescue, I know full well what impact just one litter can have on the rescue crisis. There are too many Labradors being bred full stop. And, I'm afraid to say that you do not fall into the minority of responsible, knowledgeable, ethical breeders that this breed needs - you haven't fully health tested your bitch and you know very little about the stud.

People on here are very very helpful, but they cannot be expected to go all out to help someone who may not have the dog's, future puppies and breed's welfare at the forefront of their mind


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Love4Dogs said:


> ok well i searched the internet and thats what it told me sorry. I will be getting copies of certificates for new owners and which are family and friends. Well stud owner told me to bring the bitch to her day 10 of heat and she never started to flag him until day 16. I was hoping stud owner would guide me considering i was paying her. Clearly not very well. I appologise too all those who know more than me and i am on internet everyday and ordered many books such as book of the bitch to guide me. Holly will only be having one litter and gettin spayed.


Just one more question, and then I'll leave you to it.

WHY are you breeding from Holly?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Love4Dogs said:


> ok well i searched the internet and thats what it told me sorry. I will be getting copies of certificates for new owners and which are family and friends. Well stud owner told me to bring the bitch to her day 10 of heat and she never started to flag him until day 16. I was hoping stud owner would guide me considering i was paying her. Clearly not very well. I appologise too all those who know more than me and i am on internet everyday and ordered many books such as book of the bitch to guide me. Holly will only be having one litter and gettin spayed.


Can I ask why you are breeding her? Family and friends have a nasty habit of letting people down when it comes to the crunch - and as Labs can have up to 14 surviving pups - that's a lot of reliable family and friends members to hedge your bets on  waiting lists can be a right royal PITA at the best of times

Even pet bitch owners can have their pick of stud dogs these days if their bitches are health-tested and TBH - I find it shocking that you don't know the KC name of the sire - that doesn't come from any support from the stud dog owner but from your own research BEFORE mating.

Yes, if your bitch is pregnant, there will be people who will help you - so please don't take umbrage at the comments from people who are truly passionate about our breed and are frustrated at the number of people breeding without any concept of what they are getting into 

How will you explain to family./ friends or anyone else who buys one of your pups if that pup goes blind from a preventable condition at 2 years old - Hereditary cataracts are only preventable up to a point (current clear eye certificate) and more often than not causes minor sight impairment - but PRA is FULLY preventable from a simple blood test (it can even be done by mouth swab these days) and requires just ONE clear parent - without testing, it's quite feasible both dogs could be genetic carriers or even affected for the condition 

I've got absolutely NOTHING against pet breeders proividing they do things properly - but the pet breeders I know, know the ins and outs of the dogs backside before they use him


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

mmmm....

I think it only fair to point out that those of us who breed responsibly and those who know how to breed responsibly even if they've never bred, know what is entailed in responsible breeding and know how byb (and byb stud owners) operate too. It is glaringly obvious, but to highlight the holes would not be productive so will leave it there. 

'Bruiser' Stud dog - google is your friend


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think you've been severely let down by the stud dog owner, in all honesty, and you really should have spent longer researching. You're not alone and that's not a personal criticism of you, just so many people don't realise what's involved with breeding, and the risks to the bitch, even the risks involved with mating are quite substantial. 

I really hope you can get some paperwork sorted out, and definitely, please have a look at endorsements and contracts, because you should be looking at preventing anyone from breeding on from a pup without the correct knowledge and research in place. 

Again, I'm not trying to be critical, but I'm not sure how you can hope to breed to improve without a much deeper knowledge base. There are all sorts of issues that come to play when breeding, not just colour and temperament, nor the basic health tests, but poor conformation can lead to health problems as well, and I'm not sure just how much you're aware of this? 

I would do some research into PRA in the lines of your bitch and the dog you've used as well, you may be able to find out whether it could be a problem, and advise puppy buyers/owners if you think it might be an issue. Also have a look at CNM (centro nuclear myopathy - not sure if that's two or three words, always bamboozles me) and elbow grading, and see what information you can find out behind your dogs. Elbow grading and hip scoring can't tell you for sure whether there's a problem as such, but again, it's good to know these things for yourself, and for prospective puppy owners.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Love4Dogs said:


> I was wishing to improve the breed and select a stud that is near to equal in traits and wishing to choose a stud who doesnt have any common faults etc.


Is this the non-kc registered Bruiser on Preloved 

Please explain how exactly you are improving a breed that already has around 75K pups bred year on year - around of third of those are unregistered.

How have you measured your girls working ability / how have you learnt about conformation to know where and how she can be improved and what sort of dog would complement and improve her?

"improving the breed" is a cliche with the exception of those at the very top of their game who potentially have the dogs and the experience to really give something back.

You can improve your own lines for show or working purposes and you can endeavour not to damage the wider breed (unfortunately - all I can see here are things that are detrimental to this lovely breed and certainly won't improve it  )



Love4Dogs said:


> I will not be selling these puppies for profit as alot do.


 if you are breeding properly - there is NO profit to be made unless you are exceptionally lucky (or cut corners) - on a first litter, you are lucky to break even


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Love4Dogs said:


> No it isnt!! So can u stick your nose in someone elses business im not interested in your opinion! Your clearly out to critisize me!


My concern is solely for the breed - and "improving the breed" is the biggest cliche going - reserved for those who really are at the top of their game and have the dogs and the clout to actively improve the breed - I asked reasonable questions for which you can't give answers - so easier to just bite back instead 

You are not in a position to 'improve the breed' - but you are in a position to damage it 

By your own admission, the stud down owner was at best questionable - research you should have done BEFORE mating your bitch. How will you explain to people if the pups are affected by PRA? genuine question


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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## Love4Dogs (Oct 25, 2011)

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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Love4Dogs said:


> Can u not take the hint


Not where this is concerned - NO


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

It is utterly devastating how many breeding threads end like this. If one good thing comes out of this 'Love4dogs', you have said that you will get Holly spayed after this litter. Please do.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i think everyones jumped in a little too quick here


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

Love4Dogs said:


> Can u not take the hint


i wouldnt take the comments badly, people on this forum are very passionate and care ALOT about the welfare of the animals. if you stick around people will be able to give you lots of advice. its understandable that they are concerned though, they see daily the consequences of bad breeding.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

staceydawlz said:


> i think everyones jumped in a little too quick here


I disagree, and as someone who is also breeding a Labrador, you should also be asking these sort of questions, imo.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i dont need to nose into their buisness therefor i dont ask...im not the kind to query things when they have nothing to do with me...might sound silly or stupid but i like to try keep out of the hussle and bussle...i know there are alot and i mean alot of unhealth tested dogs just being bred to make a bit of dosh millions of dogs and puppys being killed everyday...at the end of the day the deed is done we can only help and advise x


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

staceydawlz said:


> i think everyones jumped in a little too quick here


In what respect? the dogs are not PRA tested - the OP 'thinks' she saw the hip score certificate and current clear eye certificate and can't remember the KC name of the dog (and unsurprisingly - not my doing - and by a huge coincidence - there is a "Bruiser" chocolate stud dog in Scotland who isn't KC registered).

Alarm bells should have been ringing when a stud dog owner first takes the dog for a week and then sends it to the bitches home !!!!

A stud dog owner of a KC registered dog has to sign paperwork to say they've witnessed the mating to a bitch - how can they do this if both dogs are at someone else's home 

Every breed has different practices, but in Labs, it is usually only practice to switch money for paperwork with maiden stud dogs (unproven) when you wouldn't ask for payment - but would do an exchange on confirmation of pregnancy.

It's more the 'norm' to offer a free return visit if the bitch doesn't catch.

With a few exceptions, for example, in the case of AI - the stud owner provides a service - not just some semen for the bitch - this includes if the bitch owner isn't aware - on the best methods for testing the bitch to ensure maximum chance of getting pregnant.

I have already said in my post for the OP "not to take umbrage" - we are passionate about our breed and there is just too much heartache out there already because of poor / inexperienced breeders for don't do their research 

I am NOT against new breeders - far from it - whether they are breeding for show / working or solely pets - if they do things properly and will help in any way I can - because contrary to popular belief - Labs DO need good breeders to take the business away from the Puppy Farmers.

The OP could test their bitch for PRA - potential or actual pregnancy is not prohibitive as the test can be done by mouth swab so long as there is a vet or chip reader there to read and record the microchip details.

The bitch may well come back genetically clear, and then there is absolutely nothing to worry about.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

staceydawlz said:


> i think everyones jumped in a little too quick here


i disagree anyone who has an interest and a passion for a breed is entitled to ask questions imo. i'm surprised you haven't tbo.


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

just to add im completly against breeding dogs who havnt been tested!! breeding to improve health should be a first in any dog!!! i can be against mixed breedin too only if dogs are not fully health tested...bybs disgust me and puppy farmers should be treated they way they treated their dogs!!! id love to see something major hapening or to be put into place for all of this but whats the likelyness?? theyd rather kill dogs for looking like a certain breed its rediculious and unfair!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

And educate. How many times do people come on this forum, who've bred without any, or scant, research? This thread will come up for people searching, and possibly help them.

To the OP, I'm sorry, but when you give no information about the health tests, and the stud dog, people will jump to conclusions, and open forums can be quite daunting. This one is actually incredibly tame compared to some I've been on, and there is a lot of good information on here. If you can take the criticisms on the chin and stick around, you will learn, but you have to realise, that people on here care greatly about ethical breeding, and will be downright honest to you, which may come across as critical, even scathing, but if the same people were sat around a table in a pub chatting to you about breeding, they would say the same things.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

staceydawlz said:


> i dont need to nose into their buisness therefor i dont ask...im not the kind to query things when they have nothing to do with me...might sound silly or stupid but i like to try keep out of the hussle and bussle...i know there are alot and i mean alot of unhealth tested dogs just being bred to make a bit of dosh millions of dogs and puppys being killed everyday...at the end of the day the deed is done we can only help and advise x


No I can understand that you don't want to get involved, however, help and advice should only go to people who are willing to accept it. It is no use us glossing over the numerous mistakes the OP has made as there may be serious consequences for her puppies, and her bitch.

And it has got something to do with you, imo. You are a breeder and the welfare of the breed as a whole should be of as great a concern to you as it is to everyone else who has commented on this thread. I'm not saying that you should get involved if you don't want to, but please don't accuse those of us who asked questions of 'jumping in'.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just another note to the OP, it is possible to PRA test the litter for the status of pups as well, I've never done it, I've not actually bred a litter yet, but I'm sure if you ask then you will get advice about how to do this. Definitely worth thinking about


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

swarthy said:


> In what respect? the dogs are not PRA tested - the OP 'thinks' she saw the hip score certificate and current clear eye certificate and can't remember the KC name of the dog (and unsurprisingly - not my doing - and by a huge coincidence - there is a "Bruiser" chocolate stud dog in Scotland who isn't KC registered).
> 
> Alarm bells should have been ringing when a stud dog owner first takes the dog for a week and then sends it to the bitches home !!!!
> 
> ...


i completely agree...i dont see how they could think they saw the scores etc as this was one of the first things that i looked for so i could improve if poss on ellies scores and have healthy pups i do agree with everything your saying...also the time of period the two dogs were together i never got this either? i just think some people need a softer aproatch to questions being fired at them...sometimes this isnt the case and it is just someone out to stick their back up because theyve done wrong....bruiser you guys found...was he in scotland?


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And educate. How many times do people come on this forum, who've bred without any, or scant, research? This thread will come up for people searching, and possibly help them.
> 
> To the OP, I'm sorry, but when you give no information about the health tests, and the stud dog, people will jump to conclusions, and open forums can be quite daunting. This one is actually incredibly tame compared to some I've been on, and there is a lot of good information on here. If you can take the criticisms on the chin and stick around, you will learn, but you have to realise, that people on here care greatly about ethical breeding, and will be downright honest to you, which may come across as critical, even scathing, but if the same people were sat around a table in a pub chatting to you about breeding, they would say the same things.


this i agree with x


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## agnes2003 (Apr 14, 2009)

Well all the posts have been removed by the OP. How sad. Makes me think that perhaps all was not what it seemed.

If I had bred/was going to breed from my bitch, I'd have no problem whatsoever singing from the rooftops the huge thought process I'd gone through, and would happilly (and no doubt proudly) tell others about the Health Testing I'd done and that of the Sire. I wouldn't find it offensive or troublesome that anyone should take the time to ask. 

Good, carefully considered breeding should be commended. I wish there were more posts with people sharing their journeys in this way, rather than 'I put two dogs together and now have pups on the way'...

Lead by example!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

agnes2003 said:


> Well all the posts have been removed by the OP. How sad. Makes me think that perhaps all was not what it seemed.
> 
> If I had bred/was going to breed from my bitch, I'd have no problem whatsoever singing from the rooftops the huge thought process I'd gone through, and would happilly (and no doubt proudly) tell others about the Health Testing I'd done and that of the Sire. I wouldn't find it offensive or troublesome that anyone should take the time to ask.
> 
> ...


It is sad isn't it, I only hope the OP has taken on board some of the advice about contracts and health testing for her bitch and/or the pups.


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## terencesmum (Jul 30, 2011)

Just caught up with this. Oh. My. God! is all I can say. What a shame for the pups.:frown:


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