# Alpha1 Dog Training, Darlington - My Experience



## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

Hi all,

This is my opinion and experience. Please be aware that we didn't stay very long, so this may not represent all aspects of the class.

As some of you may have read on my threads I posted yesterday, I'm struggling a bit with my 13month old boy, Bo'sun. One of our challenges is getting his attention with other dogs around. Up to this point, I've been self-taught via the internet and this wonderful forum, but I thought we could benefit from some practice in a controlled environment.

To this end, I contacted George from Alpha Pet Dog Training in Darlington, I had heard a couple of good reports, and he was somewhere I could get to, and classes were reasonable, so I decided to investigate.

I spoke to George on the phone - it was a very brief conversation, he told me the class times, asked the breed of my dog and what problems he had (to which I explained the above). I didn't get the opportunity to ask about qualifications etc.

I got to the hall to find a very small hall (about the size of my living room/dining room, but a bit wider) with the floor covered with homemade agility equipment and about 8 rather hot dogs sitting around the outside, (no ventilation, but plenty of water provided.)

I was a bit late, so I paid my subs and sat down, unfortunately a bit too near another dog for Bo'sun to think of much else. He told the room in general that 'the wirehaired viszla was calmer than it's smooth-haired cousin' (not that you would have known it from Bo'sun's carry on!) asked me 'what's his problem?', gave him a treat (he didn't ask about allergies) and asked to take Bo'sun. I let him, and he walked up to the nearest dog, allowed Bo'sun to greet (rather rudely, I'll admit) and then shook the bottle next to his ear. My dog jumped a mile, with ears back and cowering. After a second, my pup went to back to the other dog, and the rattle bottle went again, with the same reaction, so I took his lead from the trainer's hand and walked out. We were there less than 5 minutes.

I know my dog - he reacts to corrections with warning signals (fight rather than flight). Had the the trainer continued, Bo'sun could and in my opinion probably would have escalated.

My personal opinion is that this trainer should be avoided.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

not liking for what happened but because you've spoken up. I hope Bo'sun will be okay and you find another solution. Hopefully someone on here can recommend a good trainer for you.


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> not liking for what happened but because you've spoken up. I hope Bo'sun will be okay and you find another solution. Hopefully someone on here can recommend a good trainer for you.


Thank you for your concern - I don't think there will be any lasting effects as we left so quickly.

I hope someone can recommend someone, but the two that I found that do come recommended (one from SmokeyBear) are too far away for me to get to, as I don't drive...


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

I've just checked his FaceBook page - he claims to use 'reward-based motivational training'


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

I would strongly suggest you contact a trainer who has been assessed by an external body for competence.

John Rogerson is near you, he may not be able to see you but he can probably give you some good recommendations.

List of Accredited Instructors


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fubrite said:


> I've just checked his FaceBook page - he claims to use 'reward-based motivational training'


I suppose it is partly "reward based" - but fails to mention that treats are also given alongside aversives!

If you are able to find out if he has any qualifications, the APDT (if he's a member) take very strong exception to their members using such techniques and would love to know about it.


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## PBR1 (Dec 16, 2013)

How awful but anyone using the title "alpha" in their dog training business probably should be avoided !


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Weird. And completely inept and inappropriate. 

It isn't that a rattle can is the mother-of-all-awful aversives. It can have a place in training against livestock chasing/jogger & bike chasing for dogs with a high prey drive. But for teaching a dog to introduce himself nicely to others? Bizarre.

Still, do be cautious. This is someones livelihood and unless you videotaped the whole shenanigans they can have you for slander. I'd ask the mods to remove the trainer's name. You could still say between the lines who you are talking about.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Thats why I always try to go and watch some classes on my own before deciding which one to take one of my dogs to. My poor noise phobic GSP would probably have wet himself if anyone did that to him :angry:


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

That doesn't sound sensible at all & could cause more issues, see these rattles & sprays are over used without fully understanding what they're doing.

The first training class we tried was awful, it was local & when we phoned up they told me it was reward based training. It had an introduction class before signing up for the course & as it was that week we made the mistake of trying it. In first 5 mins knew it wasn't for us as trainervwent on about choke chains but it felt awkward to leave so figured we'd slip away during the break.There was no rewards for the dogs just lot of suggested lead checking during walking bit. I couldn't figure out how the dogs were supposed to learn what to do. Then when the trainer taught a pup to do a 'down' by manipulating it then getting owner to hold it there and say "down" i decided I'd seen enough. I wish i was a more confident person to have warned the others in class before they blindly followed. Ever since then I make sure to ask plenty of questions & go to view the trainers class before I consider taking the dog.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Eeek! and the worrying thing is that people actually pay for that!

This probably isn't much of a consolation to you, but I suspect Bosun's behaviour is very much age related. My wirehaired pointer from just across the border in Slovakia was pretty dire at that age with being distracted by....everything! with time/training/consistency and age, hopefully you'll be looking back in a years time with a very different dog.


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

2Hounds said:


> That doesn't sound sensible at all & could cause more issues, see these rattles & sprays are over used without fully understanding what they're doing.
> 
> The first training class we tried was awful, it was local & when we phoned up they told me it was reward based training. It had an introduction class before signing up for the course & as it was that week we made the mistake of trying it. In first 5 mins knew it wasn't for us as trainervwent on about choke chains but it felt awkward to leave so figured we'd slip away during the break.There was no rewards for the dogs just lot of suggested lead checking during walking bit. I couldn't figure out how the dogs were supposed to learn what to do. Then when the trainer taught a pup to do a 'down' by manipulating it then getting owner to hold it there and say "down" i decided I'd seen enough. I wish i was a more confident person to have warned the others in class before they blindly followed. Ever since then I make sure to ask plenty of questions & go to view the trainers class before I consider taking the dog.


I wished I had said something to the group, but I was more interested in getting us both out of there, and unfortunately wouldn't have carried as much weight with Bo'sun playing up...

With regards to slander, according to the dictionary, this is a false statement that is damaging to someone's livelihood. As everything I have said is true, and there were ~8 witnesses, I'm going to risk it...


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fubrite said:


> With regards to slander, according to the dictionary, this is a false statement that is damaging to someone's livelihood. As everything I have said is true, and there were ~8 witnesses, I'm going to risk it...


Libel - and slander - isn't libel if it's true.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

'Reward-based' means just that - based in reward. It doesn't mean 'positive only' or 'force-free'. You didn't stay long enough to see if he was then motivational in any way.

Let me recap...You had a very short discussion on the phone that you weren't very happy with, took your dog there anyway, to a class, where you seem to expect the trainer to carry out an in-depth questioning of you about your dog, likes and dislikes and do a temperament test. What were all the other owners (who have also paid) supposed to be doing while you were doing that? 

I think you were expecting a behaviour consult, NOT a dog training class. If your dog won't give you attention around other dogs, I have no idea why you thought it was a good idea to take a dog into a class, where there would be other dogs in close proximity and get anywhere with him, without taking up a lot of the trainers time. And as for complaining that your dog might have started putting up a fight due to the methods used, if that's the case, you should not have let the dog trainer take your dog so quickly after meeting you. Especially as you saw that he was using rattle cans - if you did not want that used on your dog you should have said so - especially if your dog might have escalated!

The complaint about making the trainer ask for a sit is beyond me for instance. On occasion I will give a treat to a new dog because I am assessing it, so being told by the owner to make it sit ruins the assessment, although I would have taken time to explain to you why I would not ask for a sit first and just wanted to give the dog a treat. But either way, you chose this group, so why argue with the trainer YOU chose, straight away?!

I don't agree with the method he chose, I don't use aversives in class situations and in fact rarely use them in private, but when owners put themselves into inappropriate situations instead of booking some private lessons first sometimes trainers will also choose inappropriate methods.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Oh dear, that certainly doesn't sound great. I wouldn't be going back either. Having said that I would maybe be a bit wary about getting carried away with lots of negative press on Facebook etc given you were only there a few minutes, and missed the start of class etc - you surely can't have a rounded view of what goes on in the class as a whole?

Maybe when you are looking for another class it might be a good idea to choose somewhere with a trainer who could perhaps do one or two private sessions first if your dog might struggle with the class situation? Or at least make sure you've had ample time to discuss your needs with them prior to turning up with your dog. Maybe go and view a class and discuss with them afterwards or something. As boredom busters pointed out it's maybe not entirely realistic to expect a detailed assessment of your dog, training methods etc in a group class, particularly if you turn up late and class has already started. I've no idea how big the class was, but even in a small class of 5 dogs you can only really expect a 5th of the instructors time/attention......

I think group classes are great - my dog went through a phase of being excited/frustrated/stressed around other dogs and our trainer was great at helping us cope with this in class and he can now focus completely on me whilst other dogs are doing their thing. We'd been going to classes since he was a puppy so the instructors knew him. I think if I'd been looking to start classes from scratch whilst he was in his "difficult" phase I would have booked a private session first to really be able to have the instructors undivided attention and make sure they were happy he was suitable. 

I hope you find a better class


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

Sarahliz100 and BoredomBusters, I'll reply to you both here as you have both made very similar points.



BoredomBusters said:


> 'Reward-based' means just that - based in reward. It doesn't mean 'positive only' or 'force-free'. You didn't stay long enough to see if he was then motivational in any way.


I stand corrected - though as a naive dog-owner, to me, 'rewards-based training' meant that rewards were tried first, before resorting to aversives.

In the cold light of day, you are both quite correct that I cannot possibly have a balanced view of the class in the brief time we were there, and I will edit my reviews just to include my experience, pointing out the brief exposure. People can then form their own opinions.



> Let me recap...You had a very short discussion on the phone that you weren't very happy with, took your dog there anyway, to a class, where you seem to expect the trainer to carry out an in-depth questioning of you about your dog, likes and dislikes and do a temperament test. What were all the other owners (who have also paid) supposed to be doing while you were doing that?


Yes, in hindsight, I exercised bad judgement in going to the class, but this happened to be the only class I can get to without a 2-hour round trip.

I decided to go, as the phone conversation, in and of itself, didn't contain anything overtly alarming. It was just the brevity, and lack of information in both directions that I was unhappy with, which could easily have been explained away if he was busy, or about to go out.

I certainly didn't expect anything in-depth, nor did I expect him to spend all his time with me.

I expected to be asked a few initial questions about training and temperament, which could easily have been done in the initial phone call, and would have taken less than 5 minutes.

When I arrived, I expected to be asked to wait in an out of the way place until the trainer had a couple of minutes to introduce himself, maybe while the class was engaged in a demonstrated exercise.

Thinking about it, he could have asked me to arrive a few minutes earlier or come down at the end of the class to meet both my dog and me, which would have enabled him to see what the situation was. Is it normal for trainers to allow dogs into their classes without meeting them first? I would have thought this could cause a lot of trouble?



> I think you were expecting a behaviour consult, NOT a dog training class. If your dog won't give you attention around other dogs, I have no idea why you thought it was a good idea to take a dog into a class, where there would be other dogs in close proximity and get anywhere with him, without taking up a lot of the trainers time. And as for complaining that your dog might have started putting up a fight due to the methods used, if that's the case, you should not have let the dog trainer take your dog so quickly after meeting you. Especially as you saw that he was using rattle cans - if you did not want that used on your dog you should have said so - especially if your dog might have escalated!


Actually, I was rather expecting to spend the first several weeks at the farthest end of the hall, or even in the corridor, being largely ignored by the trainer, while I worked on that getting of attention. Then we could have worked on moving closer and closer to the other dogs. Obviously, I was wrong and that isn't the best way to approach the problem, or how a class operates, and my expectations were unrealistic.

I understood that group classes were a good way of getting the dog to get used to working with other dogs around in a controlled environment?

Yes, you're right that I shouldn't have let the trainer take my dog - but I had no idea what he was going to do, otherwise I WOULD have asked him not to, and after all, he is the trainer with the qualifications - I am just a novice dog owner that spends far too much time on Google 

I DID take my dog back as soon I saw the potential for a problem... BTW, by escalation, I mean growling - he's never done anything more than a warning bark, because I've recognised the problem and stopped the scary thing happening.



> The complaint about making the trainer ask for a sit is beyond me for instance. On occasion I will give a treat to a new dog because I am assessing it, so being told by the owner to make it sit ruins the assessment, although I would have taken time to explain to you why I would not ask for a sit first and just wanted to give the dog a treat. But either way, you chose this group, so why argue with the trainer YOU chose, straight away?!


You're quite right, he could well have been assessing him/us, though he didn't say so. I was just surprised that a trainer would reward bad behaviour. I didn't argue with him, all I said was "He has to sit first, please."



> I don't agree with the method he chose, I don't use aversives in class situations and in fact rarely use them in private, but when owners put themselves into inappropriate situations instead of booking some private lessons first sometimes trainers will also choose inappropriate methods.


Yes, I will hold up my hands to putting myself in an inappropriate situation, but I have to ask, do you suggest to your clients that a couple of private sessions might be better initially, or do you invite them along to your group classes straight away, without meeting them first?

I will be looking for other classes, and will take the suggestions of going to watch a class, and booking some private lessons.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Maybe have a look on the association of pet dog trainers website for a trainer and classes in your area. They do use only Reward based training.

Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fubrite said:


> Yes, in hindsight, I exercised bad judgement in going to the class, but this happened to be the only class I can get to without a 2-hour round trip.


It's never easy. Better a 2-hr round trip to a good trainer than 10 mins to a bad one, though. Regard it as investment in your dog. And go on your own, unannounced, to watch any other classes first.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

Find someone who can do one on one with you. My trainer targets the breed, which suited our dog, but I went through two other trainers before her, one who used fear and talked constantly, didn't train, first session I saw him, I decided he wasn't for us, he was making Zak worse and very fearful. 

Point being, I think you have to find someone that suits your dog and you.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

*
I understood that group classes were a good way of getting the dog to get used to working with other dogs around in a controlled environment?*

There is a difference between a puppy or even older dog going to a training class and learning to concentrate on their owner in the presence of other dogs, and an adult dog that already has a problem giving too much attention to other dogs. The level of distraction would be way too high for the dog in that environment.

*
Yes, I will hold up my hands to putting myself in an inappropriate situation, but I have to ask, do you suggest to your clients that a couple of private sessions might be better initially, or do you invite them along to your group classes straight away, without meeting them first?*

I have indepth conversations with my clients on the phone, and they fill in a form with information about their dog, what they want from training classes, what training they've done in the past, why they want to come to the sessions when they book. No form -no booking. From the call and the form I can pick out the people who I need to meet up with first, and some dogs I've suggested aren't ready for group classes. I don't run drop in classes though, I run courses, so everyone can progress at the same rate.

I think you really should rethink your reviews, just stick to the facts that you left because a rattle bottle was used on your dog and leave the emotion out of it. It's not fair when there is no law against using rattle bottles and despite the huge outcry I usually get there are instances where aversives can be used to great effect without hurting, harming or scaring dogs. I'm not saying this man was using them effectively and you are right, reward based training should be reward training first and foremost with consequences coming in second. But although you were upset for your dog this man may well have been doing nothing terribly wrong!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

IMO and IME there is no substitute for going along and observing a trainer at work - before signing up to a class/course and handing over any money.

It's only then that you can really see how good they are and how they deal with situations and the dogs/owners.

It also helps to see how the other dogs/owners are behaving too and the set up of the class.


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## Riff Raff (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes, going along to observe a class before signing up is a good future plan, but just wanted to say, well done for being your dog's advocate, and removing him from a situation you weren't comfortable with. It takes a lot of resolve to do that in front of a group of people and someone in a position of authority. 

I do agree that there are some dogs who are too distracted to work in a group class initially, but we don't know enough about your dog to know if he falls into that category. It really depends on how far he needs to be away from another dog, and how big the space available to the class is. If he was still willing to take food in that environment, it's a good start


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

Fubrite said:


> Sarahliz100 and BoredomBusters, I'll reply to you both here as you have both made very similar points.
> 
> I stand corrected - though as a naive dog-owner, to me, 'rewards-based training' meant that rewards were tried first, before resorting to aversives.
> 
> ...


I know of 2 in Newton Aycliffe alone


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

Frankthewonderhound said:


> I know of 2 in Newton Aycliffe alone


I don't drive, and it's a 30 min walk into town, so that's an hour right there, plus the walk at the other end...


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

Ah right o, fair do's. I am told about a man who trains dogs nr lingfield point if thats any help, not sure what he is called but meant to be really good


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thats why I always try to go and watch some classes on my own before deciding which one to take one of my dogs to. * My poor noise phobic GSP would probably have wet himself if anyone did that to him :angry*:


I had an aquintance decide to "help" me with my Dalmatian pulling.Without my consent, when he bagan to pull, she threw a large bunch of keys on the floor in front of my dog, I thought she had dropped them by accident, but the second time I realised it was intentional,took me several days to undo her damage!!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> IMO and IME there is no substitute for going along and observing a trainer at work - before signing up to a class/course and handing over any money.
> 
> It's only then that you can really see how good they are and how they deal with situations and the dogs/owners.
> 
> It also helps to see how the other dogs/owners are behaving too and the set up of the class.


This. 100%.

Louie at about 9 months to a year old was a PITA! I visited 2 classes, 1 of which I was really not happy about, the second was a little bit better but not by much. The 3rd - we stuck with. And we stayed there over a year. And I only managed to do a puppy class with Pen there before I couldn't afford to go anymore.

I took Louie because of the same issues you have with Bosun.. He was so focused on other dogs it was ridiculous. Well, we found a class environment did work for us. But you have to remember that dogs know the difference between class and walks. Louie's 4 and is only just recalling from other dogs reliably. But then I don't have just him to focus on when we go out so it may differ for you 

Chalk this one down to experience and move on. I know finding a class is hard but when you do it's worth it. My class was 45 minutes away and I can't drive so my MiL (fantastic woman!) would finish work in Mansfield, pick me up in Nottingham and then drive me over the other side of town and either wait or go shopping for the hour that class was on then take me home.

Good luck in your search.


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

SLB said:


> This. 100%.
> 
> Louie at about 9 months to a year old was a PITA! I visited 2 classes, 1 of which I was really not happy about, the second was a little bit better but not by much. The 3rd - we stuck with. And we stayed there over a year. And I only managed to do a puppy class with Pen there before I couldn't afford to go anymore.
> 
> ...


Thanks, SLB, and everyone else for your support and advice. Hopefully, with a bit of work, he'll grow out of it - in the meantime, I'm going to visit another trainer's class later this week - WITHOUT Bo'sun this time!


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## SANDY12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

Hi everyone

i have been using this dog training for 2 years now, my dog was aggressive to all dogs, he was scared of dogs and generally needed help.

I approched alpha and he has been fantastic with my dog and he now loves all dogs and is a dream.

This trainer knows his job and has done for years, hence all the dog he has for different reasons. He is highly recommended!!!!

I believe when you came to the hall you could not handle your dog, he was far to big of a breed for you!!! You did not even give chance for the trainer to say anything really you were there for about 3 mins!!!!!!! What are you going to achieve from that i wounder.

I believe you said you had done training with the dog but were i will never know, you were not in control of that dog one bit!!


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

SANDY12345 said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> i have been using this dog training for 2 years now, my dog was aggressive to all dogs, he was scared of dogs and generally needed help.
> 
> ...


Here we go


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## SANDY12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

Here we go really!!!!!!!!!

You should have seen the muppet


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

SANDY12345 said:


> I believe when you came to the hall you could not handle your dog, he was far to big of a breed for you!!!


Excuse me?? 

What gives you the right to say whether someone's dog is too much for the owner?
Are you a trainer yourself?

Your response just tells me even more this was not the right class for this dog - and owner.


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## SANDY12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

Well there is plenty of them out there, and he is one of them thats for sure


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

SANDY12345 said:


> Here we go really!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You should have seen the muppet


I believe there is only one muppet here.

How dare you be so rude and derogatory to a fellow dog owner who attended a class because she needs help.

If you're the kind of person who frequents the class, I would stay away too. Instead of advocating the trainer, you've damaged him further... Well done!

You're tone and attitude sucks.

Scaring a dog in to compliance is not training... But you sound like the sort of person who loves that.


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## SANDY12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

How can he come on a pet forum and say such hings abouta dog triner that has been doing his job for over 20 years and had hundreds of success when he was in the hall for less than 3 mins!!!!

Thats what annoys me


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

SANDY12345 said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> i have been using this dog training for 2 years now, my dog was aggressive to all dogs, he was scared of dogs and generally needed help.
> 
> ...


Don't think size of dog matters. Small dogs can be a handful too 

I saw the original post and tbh think its a review which OP has right to air. You may not agree with it but OP has right to say she did not like way dog was treated. However, if I was her I probably would've said what the hell to the trainer, But that's me.

I had one incident with my trainer I did not like, told him I did not like it and never had another issue.

I'm assuming trainer in question has seen this as well, so it's up to him whether he wants to relay his side of the story.


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## SANDY12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

HOW HAVE I MADE IT WORSE???

HE HAS MADE MY DOG dream thankyou. and it wasnt a woman that had the dog


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

SANDY12345 said:


> How can he come on a pet forum and say such hings abouta dog triner that has been doing his job for over 20 years and had hundreds of success when he was in the hall for less than 3 mins!!!!
> 
> Thats what annoys me


Anyone can call themselves a trainer... What annoys me is people assuming that because he has done said job for 20 years, he's good.

What association is he part of? What qualifications does he have? Any governing bodies involved?...


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

SANDY12345 said:


> How can he come on a pet forum and say such hings abouta dog triner that has been doing his job for over 20 years and had hundreds of success when he was in the hall for less than 3 mins!!!!
> 
> Thats what annoys me


Because 20 years means nothing if the style of training doesn't suit the dog, OR owner. End of.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

SANDY12345 said:


> How can he come on a pet forum and say such hings abouta dog triner that has been doing his job for over 20 years and had hundreds of success when he was in the hall for less than 3 mins!!!!
> 
> Thats what annoys me


So what was not correct then?
If you can point out what part you are so angry about there may be a reasonable discussion.

At the moment your ranting and raving will get people backs up


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## SANDY12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

anyway i will leave it as that and wish him all the success with his new trainer and dog, if he will even let the new trainer hold the lead 

bye for now


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

SANDY12345 said:


> HOW HAVE I MADE IT WORSE???
> 
> HE HAS MADE MY DOG dream thankyou. and it wasnt a woman that had the dog


Well that's nice for you! 

One size doesn't fit all.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

SANDY12345 said:


> anyway i will leave it as that and wish him all the success with his new trainer and dog, if he will even let the new trainer hold the lead
> 
> bye for now


Bye bye


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

And to think I was just about to head for bed makes staying late at work tonight almost worth it...


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## SANDY12345 (Jul 21, 2014)

he came into the hall he couldnt handle the dog by no means , the trainer took the dog because he coudnt handle the force his dog was giving at other dogs.

he didnt even try to speak to the trainer stopped less than 3 mins then walked out how can he say so bad press about him? i dont understand?

yes he has Q and training ect all in black and white in the hall


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

SANDY12345 said:


> he came into the hall he couldnt handle the dog by no means , the trainer took the dog because he coudnt handle the force his dog was giving at other dogs.
> 
> he didnt even try to speak to the trainer stopped less than 3 mins then walked out how can he say so bad press about him? i dont understand?
> 
> yes he has Q and training ect all in black and white in the hall


Asking as you seem familiar with his training why would he use a rattle by a dogs ear


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

That's not answering the question.
What part of the op (opening post) is incorrect? 

If nothing in the op is incorrect then you really have nothing to moan about.
This trainer is not right for this dog and owner, why do you have such an issue with that?

Unless of course you are......no, nevermind


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

SANDY12345 said:


> he came into the hall he couldnt handle the dog by no means , the trainer took the dog because he coudnt handle the force his dog was giving at other dogs.
> 
> he didnt even try to speak to the trainer stopped less than 3 mins then walked out how can he say so bad press about him? i dont understand?
> 
> yes he has Q and training ect all in black and white in the hall


I've done the same in the past. If someone used that technique on one of my dogs for the reason stated in the OP, I would have left too... Making an owner feel at ease and comfortable is part of a trainers job. Aversive techniques like stated have no place in mine and many others dog's lives...

I do not want my dog to listen and obey me because he is too scared to do otherwise.

Three minutes is sometimes all it takes to make up your mind.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

SANDY12345 said:


> he came into the hall he couldnt handle the dog by no means l


At the classes I have been to, the trainer NEVER takes the dog. And if I was training, I wouldn't either, because I would see instantly there was a very stressed dog and a stressed owner. The worst thing you could do would be to add further stress in the form of a rattle bottle.

If you seriously think this is the right way to deal with these issues - and run a class - then there is no way I'd ever recommend your classes, and I'd feel justified in bringing that to other peoples' attention.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

As has been said many times on this forum and elsewhere - *go to see a class yourself without your dog beforehand.* and turn up unannounced. If they don't want people randomly turning up - *maybe there's a reason.*


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your support in my absence. Now, to address the accusations...

Oh, and yes, I am male...



SANDY12345 said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> i have been using this dog training for 2 years now, my dog was aggressive to all dogs, he was scared of dogs and generally needed help.
> 
> ...


I am glad he was able to help you with your dog, but I stand by my statement of what happened. I have edited my original post to just state the facts. I cannot alter it too much or the rest of the thread would not make sense.

Yes, he was recommended to me by several people, but I will always make my own observations and make up my own mind. Even with qualifications, a trainer may lack the people skills to be effective.



> I believe when you came to the hall you could not handle your dog, he was far to big of a breed for you!!! You did not even give chance for the trainer to say anything really you were there for about 3 mins!!!!!!! What are you going to achieve from that i wounder.


From the way that was phrased, I don't believe you were actually there? My dog was under control. Was he paying attention to me? No, but that was why I was there. He was straining to get to play with the other dogs, yes, but I was able to hold him (I'm actually the only person in my family that can), and not allow him to get to the other dogs, and I was about to move further away, to give us all some space.

As far as my dog being too big for me, I believe this might stem from the fact that I am well below average height (technically, I'm a dwarf, but only just). I am a firm believer that the size of the dog does not matter if the training is in place - a child should be able to handle a great dane. I have put a great deal of work into training for this reason, but I needed help with this one aspect - again, the reason I was at the class in the first place.

As Lauren5159 said, sometimes 3 minutes is all you need. I was pretty sure as soon as I walked in that this was not the right class for us, and after 3 minutes I was positive.



SANDY12345 said:


> he came into the hall he couldnt handle the dog by no means , the trainer took the dog because he coudnt handle the force his dog was giving at other dogs.


Now this is rather insulting. Did the trainer assume that because of my height I couldn't 'handle' my dog? Despite the fact that he wasn't pulling me out of position by an inch? If so, why didn't he walk us both to the furthest end of the hall, where my dog might have been able to calm down? (Which would have worked, as I found out at our trip to the vets yesterday.)



> he didnt even try to speak to the trainer stopped less than 3 mins then walked out how can he say so bad press about him? i dont understand?
> 
> yes he has Q and training ect all in black and white in the hall


No, I didn't speak to the trainer, and I doubt it would have done any good if I had. I would also have been undermining his authority as a trainer. While I don't doubt that his methods do work, and he has had many successes, I don't agree with his methods. I posted the review to point out that his way might not the kindest way to train an animal.

I have been spoken to, unsolicited, by several friends since I posted my review, all of whom have said they had the same experience, and ultimately left the class.


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

Fubrite said:


> Oh, and yes, I am male...
> 
> No, I didn't speak to the trainer, and I doubt it would have done any good if I had. I would also have been undermining his authority as a trainer.


I think most of the people on here are woman so naturally Id assume you were a woman - apologies for being sexist

Why would you think its undermining his authority. Ive also thought that the whole idea of a training class is not to train the dog, but to train the owner to work with his/her dog. If you dont say anything or ask questions, then how can you learn?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I have an internet friend who lives in Darlington who may be able to give me a few names/classes. 

Would you be interested in doing gun dog stuff with him? I found this helped with Lou as well as there is more focus/control work done around other dogs as well as prey animals.


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

SLB said:


> I have an internet friend who lives in Darlington who may be able to give me a few names/classes.
> 
> Would you be interested in doing gun dog stuff with him? I found this helped with Lou as well as there is more focus/control work done around other dogs as well as prey animals.


Thanks SLB!

Yes, I would! Although I wouldn't want to do the actual hunting bit, but I think Bo'sun would enjoy the work.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Fubrite said:


> Thanks SLB!
> 
> Yes, I would! Although I wouldn't want to do the actual hunting bit, but I think Bo'sun would enjoy the work.


We mainly gundog train for fun too - Lou has been on a shoot for the morning and he enjoyed it so next season I'll be trying to get him on a few more. It was good for him though, he was offlead hunting a runner, along side several other dogs - of whom he'd not met and he's a bit of a grump. Not a cross word from him at all and he listened brilliantly. But at dog shows he's crap at scurries :lol:

If my friend gives me any details I will pop them on here for you. But it might be in the morning as I have work later


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Fubrite....naming and shaming a trainer after THIS brief of an interaction just wasn't cool. 

If he had hit your dog, I'd get it. But you not being comfortable to have a rattle can deployed on your large dog which you, in your own words, have little to no control over really didn't warrant plastering the trainer's name derrogatively all over the internet.

You walked out wordlessly because you didn't want to undermine his authority? But then you have no qualms that every google search containing this school's name will include your post. What do you think will this do to that guy's reputation and authority?

You'd be wrong to read this as an attack on you. But I would give some thought on requesting that the mods delete the thread.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Fubrite....naming and shaming a trainer after THIS brief of an interaction just wasn't cool.
> 
> If he had hit your dog, I'd get it. But you not being comfortable to have a rattle can deployed on your large dog which you, in your own words, have little to no control over really didn't warrant plastering the trainer's name derrogatively all over the internet.
> 
> ...


Why? I named and shamed a training group who are based in Essex due to what I had seen video wise...? I'd never trained with them - I live in Nottingham! And a lot of other people on here were disgusted with the videos too. A lot of people have never worked with CM on here but everyone agrees he is a derp!

People are entitled to their opinions and a business is giving a service - therefore it is entirely acceptable for people to give reviews on that service - regardless of how long they used it for. In this case the OP was truthful on the amount of time he had spent - which to be honest is a lot more than 3 minutes if they had to sign in, the dog was taken off him and up to another dog twice before being handed back.

Seriously...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone speaking about a trainer.
The OP just went through their own experience with a trainer...nowt wrong with that at all.

He may have not hit the dog, but the use of the aversive that the trainer did use could have done just as much damage mentally..

Now if the OP came here ranting and raving you may have a point, but that is not the case, the OP is just sharing their experience..which is what forums are for..

The only person that did any real damage to this trainer is the new member that had to join to post in this thread to tell us all how wonderful this trainer is (which he may well be for that dog and that owner) and then proceeded to rant and rave about nothing...which to many would look odd and may put people off talking to the trainer if this is the way he...nope sorry a client of his is willing to behave. 
:hand:


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

SLB said:


> Why? I named and shamed a training group who are based in Essex due to what I had seen video wise...? I'd never trained with them - I live in Nottingham! And a lot of other people on here were disgusted with the videos too. A lot of people have never worked with CM on here but everyone agrees he is a derp!
> 
> People are entitled to their opinions and a business is giving a service - therefore it is entirely acceptable for people to give reviews on that service - regardless of how long they used it for. In this case the OP was truthful on the amount of time he had spent - which to be honest is a lot more than 3 minutes if they had to sign in, the dog was taken off him and up to another dog twice before being handed back.
> 
> *Seriously... *


Yes, seriously.

Of course, people are free to write what they want. That isn't the point. People write unhinged, skewed, distorted, untrue, unkind things.

Whether this makes this action "acceptable" is another issue. This pertains to someone's income and livelihood. The OP reporting that he was NOT happy and comfortable with this technique is perfectly acceptable. Personally Naming and shaming the trainer isn't.


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> The only person that did any real damage to this trainer is the new member that ...... then proceeded to rant and rave about nothing...


But it did keep me entertained for a little bit ....


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> Here we go


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh did someone just join to say how wonderful the trainer was? Go on tell me they did, was it their first post?? I'm shocked if it was  bet their dog was a big bad machine before they brought it to this trainer, bet EVERY man and his dog had tried to train it and all failed, cept for the wonder trainer and all he used was a rattle.......... WOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOO all hail the wonder trainer..


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Yes, seriously.
> 
> Of course, people are free to write what they want. That isn't the point. People write unhinged, skewed, distorted, untrue, unkind things.
> 
> Whether this makes this action "acceptable" is another issue. This pertains to someone's income and livelihood. The OP reporting that he was NOT happy and comfortable with this technique is perfectly acceptable. Personally Naming and shaming the trainer isn't.


If the trainer is happy to use the methods he uses then it is hardly naming and shaming 

If the trainer isn't happy using those methods...well, he needs to have a think about why he uses them then


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Ohhhhhhhhhhhh did someone just join to say how wonderful the trainer was? Go on tell me they did, was it their first post?? I'm shocked if it was  bet their dog was a big bad machine before they brought it to this trainer, bet EVERY man and his dog had tried to train it and all failed, cept for the wonder trainer and all he used was a rattle.......... WOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOO all hail the wonder trainer..


Here we go...

:crazy::biggrin5:

can that be my new catch phrase???


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone speaking about a trainer.
> The OP just went through their own experience with a trainer...nowt wrong with that at all.
> 
> He may have not hit the dog, but the use of the aversive that the trainer did use could have done just as much damage mentally..
> ...


Stormy...what if YOU were on the receiving end of it?

For arguments sake, say I witnessed that you corrected your dog somehow. Could be a minor thing, like you sharply saying "Oi! Listen up".

How would you feel if I then publicly stated your name and address as an example of ineptitude and cruelty? And now imagine your livelihood depended on dog training.

Because that is what Fubrite did.

Would you consider my action appropriate & fair?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Stormy...what if YOU were on the receiving end of it?
> 
> For arguments sake, say I witnessed that you corrected your dog somehow. Could be a minor thing, like you sharply saying "Oi! Listen up".
> 
> ...


Completely agree, I think expressing an opinion is one thing but 'naming & shaming' a business based on a very short experience is unacceptable & unfair.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Yes, seriously.
> 
> Of course, people are free to write what they want. That isn't the point. People write unhinged, skewed, distorted, untrue, unkind things.
> 
> Whether this makes this action "acceptable" is another issue. This pertains to someone's income and livelihood. The OP reporting that he was NOT happy and comfortable with this technique is perfectly acceptable. Personally Naming and shaming the trainer isn't.


I'm sure we went over this at the beginning of the thread... Oh look - yes it's here:



Fubrite said:


> With regards to slander, according to the dictionary, this is a false statement that is damaging to someone's livelihood. As everything I have said is true, and there were ~8 witnesses, I'm going to risk it...





MerlinsMum said:


> Libel - and slander - isn't libel if it's true.


What the OP wrote isn't nearly as bad as it could've been...


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Stormy...what if YOU were on the receiving end of it?
> 
> For arguments sake, say I witnessed that you corrected your dog somehow. Could be a minor thing, like you sharply saying "Oi! Listen up".
> 
> ...


You wouldn't witness me doing that for a start.
This thread is not an example of ineptitude nor cruelty.
I would never become a professional dog trainer as I am not good with people, and as a trainer is more about training the person I would fall short..

So yes, your actions would be unfair because they would all be untrue..

This trainer uses aversives in his training...there is nothing wrong with that so long as his clients are happy with that..

Unless of course nothing in the OP is true, well then the trainer could sue for liable


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Fubrite....naming and shaming a trainer after THIS brief of an interaction just wasn't cool.
> 
> If he had hit your dog, I'd get it. But you not being comfortable to have a rattle can deployed on your large dog which you, in your own words, have little to no control over really didn't warrant plastering the trainer's name derrogatively all over the internet.


Where did I say I have little or no control over my dog? I have said he is easily distracted and lacks attention outside of the house, sure.

I suppose it depends on your definition of control. At the class, did I have voice control on him? No way! Did I have physical control of him, so that he could not cause a problem - yep, I did. And no matter where I am, I make sure I have some sort of control, be it voice or physical (lead).



> You walked out wordlessly because you didn't want to undermine his authority? But then you have no qualms that every google search containing this school's name will include your post. What do you think will this do to that guy's reputation and authority?


No, I walked out wordlessly because I didn't feel comfortable staying any longer - I wasn't thinking about anyone but my dog at that point. I was just pointing out what would have been implied if I had spoken up.

I have posted my experience of the trainer, pointed out how long I was there for, and stuck to the facts of what happened - people can draw their own conclusions. (I went back and edited my original post and all the other reviews that I posted). There are very many positive reviews of this man on the internet, so one bad one will probably not have much of an effect. But I think it is right to give people another perspective of the training.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Ohhhhhhhhhhhh did someone just join to say how wonderful the trainer was? Go on tell me they did, was it their first post?? I'm shocked if it was  bet their dog was a big bad machine before they brought it to this trainer, bet EVERY man and his dog had tried to train it and all failed, cept for the wonder trainer and all he used was a rattle.......... WOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOO all hail the wonder trainer..


Nice of you to join us 

Welcome to the mad house... This thread needs some Meezey-ness :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2014)

Admittedly I havent read the thread that carefully, but it seems the issue most object to is the shake can, and the new member trainer defender has not denied the use of the shake can? So whats the issue?

Not that shake cans dont have their place... We use them in therapy dog testing to see that the dog can handle startling noises without issue. Somehow I doubt that was the intent here though


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

SLB you were on page 8...


Just leaving myself a little note so I don't lose the page  as no doubt the cows won't be coming home before midnight...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I can sort of see both sides of this situation (just for a change :wink as we run our own business too and every so often you can get a client with unrealistic expectations of what we can/will provide. To prevent this we give literature from a professional body explaining what we will/will not provide and get the client to sign our terms and conditions agreeing they have read and understood this. However now and then you still get someone disgruntled because they think we should have done something that they already agreed we would not so I would be mighty peed off if they were bad mouthing us across the internet.

In this situation I think a lot comes down to what the trainer says in his literature - if he explains that he sometimes uses aversives and a client then gets upset and writes bad reviews about such methods then IMO that would be unfair but if the trainer gives the impression they only use positive/reward based methods but in reality they shake a rattle bottle at a dog they have only just met and not properly assessed then I think its fair to say so in a review.

Hopefully the message most people will take away from this thread is how important it is to go and watch a class first - when I had to take Indie to puppy class (not my choice but a condition of her adoption) I struggled to find one I thought suitable for her as even the positive reward based classes were giving out some pretty outdated information and could not cater for her individual needs.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I can sort of see both sides of this situation (just for a change :wink as we run our own business too and every so often you can get a client with unrealistic expectations of what we can/will provide. To prevent this we give literature from a professional body explaining what we will/will not provide and get the client to sign our terms and conditions agreeing they have read and understood this. However now and then you still get someone disgruntled because they think we should have done something that they already agreed we would not so I would be mighty peed off if they were bad mouthing us across the internet.
> 
> In this situation I think a lot comes down to what the trainer says in his literature - if* he explains that he sometimes uses aversives *and a client then gets upset and writes bad reviews about such methods then IMO that would be unfair but if the trainer gives the impression they only use positive/reward based methods but in reality they shake a rattle bottle at a dog they have only just met and not properly assessed then I think its fair to say so in a review.
> 
> Hopefully the message most people will take away from this thread is how important it is to go and watch a class first - when I had to take Indie to puppy class (not my choice but a condition of her adoption) I struggled to find one I thought suitable for her as even the positive reward based classes were giving out some pretty outdated information and could not cater for her individual needs.


I think that is the crux of the the issue in this case, and in so many other cases, Trainers who claim to be one thing on their websites, but who in reality use methods and tools that do not chime with their website claims.

If the label says nut free I want the product to be free from nuts. If the website says only force free, positive reinforcement I don't think it's wrong to expect that to be your experience.


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## Frankthewonderhound (Aug 7, 2012)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Yes, seriously.
> 
> *Of course, people are free to write what they want*.


''No further questions, your Honour''


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

It does make me wonder about people lol 

So crux is went to a class, the trainer is advertised as "A friendly dog club whose aims are to promote the welfare and training of the family dog, using reward based motivational training." but then trainers uses rattle bottle to stop dog greeting other dogs....... :hand: Owner knows his dog so removes his from the situation..

Now OP is wrong for letting us know that trainer uses rattle bottles, and they were not happy, and was advising others if they don't like their dogs being reprimanded with a rattle bottle for greeting another dog not to go to or use this trainer.... then person with the worst dog ever comes in with first post and says the trainer is in fact the David Beckham of the dog training world........ Awesomeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

Not sure why people are getting their knickers in a twist for? There are 1000's of review sites that you can do just this....


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

Meezey said:


> and says the trainer is in fact the David Beckham of the dog training world........


so this trainer has a high squeaky voice too?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Wonder what the 'number of dog behaviour and therapist training qualifications' are? In my experience, people with qualifications are proud of them and want everyone to know what they are and with no surname or address for George no-one can check can they?

It's good that these guys have put up a ton of pictures. They show a bunch of dogs running around doing their own thing on the socialisation pictures and a number of dogs in close proximity in a church hall, mostly stood next to a brick. What's the brick?

So if you were looking for help that would suit a nervous, aggressive or easily distracted dog, these classes wouldn't be what you were looking for imo.

Rattle bottle aside they look from the pictures to be the typical cheap local church hall dog classes that many people use and enjoy, but most definitely don't suit everyone.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Meezey said:


> It does make me wonder about people lol
> 
> So crux is went to a class, the trainer is advertised as "A friendly dog club whose aims are to promote the welfare and training of the family dog, using reward based motivational training." but then trainers uses rattle bottle to stop dog greeting other dogs....... :hand: Owner knows his dog so removes his from the situation..
> 
> ...


In fairness though (yes I know I'm getting boring) the OP has changed their initial post and the title of the thread toning it down somewhat from how it was initially so I think some of the comments do refer to the post in its initial form.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> In fairness though (yes I know I'm getting boring) the OP has changed their initial post and the title of the thread toning it down somewhat from how it was initially so I think some of the comments do refer to the post in its initial form.


It's always good to have a voice of reason  I should borrow it sometime as I seem to have lost mine


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## AJ600 (Mar 3, 2014)

TBH I dont really see what the issue is.. 

We have an italian restaurant in the village - 

some people thinks its the bees knees 
others dont and completely slated it

Yet you cant get a table there Thurs to Sat unless you book ages in advance. 

Personally its up to you to have your own opinion. 

I prefer to have both types of reviews before making my own decision about whether I want to go there or not. By not having the bad reviews you get a one sided view of any service and what good is that? 

I saw the first post, and the second one. The first one I thought was a bit emotive and the second one less so. 

My only issue is that I think the OP should've spoken up at the class. 

If the trainer really had an issue with the review - he could've posted up here himself to defend his methods. I had asked the other poster about this - but did not get an answer.

But then again - my opinion does not really count - cos a 4 hour drive there and a 4 hour drive back to attend a class just aint gonna happen....


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Ok OP, sorry if you've checked these out but this is what my Darlington friend says:



> The closest positive gundog trainer I know of is up near Leeming Bar, about 20 minutes drive. Called Cast Dog Training I think.
> There's also a guy in Darlington actually, let me have a quick google...
> Hmmm, David Davies was who I was thinking of but I'm not convinced he's all that positive based. The next best trainer local would be Carrie Evans of pet behave in Middlesbrough. She's very good from what I've heard.
> 
> ...


Hope that helps - if not, Sorry wish I could.


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## Fubrite (Jan 22, 2013)

SLB said:


> Ok OP, sorry if you've checked these out but this is what my Darlington friend says:
> 
> Hope that helps - if not, Sorry wish I could.


Thank you! Leeming Bar sounds like a possibility... will look into it.


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