# Where does Homophobia come from?



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

And why?

I'm told it's the same as Racism, you're brought up like it and somewhat brainwashed to have a negative attitude towards homosexuality and people from a different ethnic background.

Is that true?

Bit of a weird question but I am curious what makes people have this negative attitude and where equality sometimes doesn't exist because they don't agree with it. I don't understand homophobia really, nor racism, etc.

Thanks for any replies.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Learnt behaviour


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Lack of education, certain religious beliefs, beliefs in your family/social circle as a child. Some people just feel threatened by anyone different, usually as they are insecure in their own skin and project that onto others. I don't understand it either, it's just incredibly sad  No one is born hating people of a different race or sexuality, but unfortunately along the way, some people's lives take that path.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

The depths of hell :frown2:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

It was illegal when many of us were young


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I agree. When I was little, on our area there were children from other ethnic backgrounds and we all played with each other and were invited over for tea.

Now, some of the things children say. It must be coming from the source, thus the parent surely?

Makes me very sad. I judge someone by their personality and that's it.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

All hatred is learned behaviour but it's only been legal since what the 50's and only been accepted the last 20/30 years. A lot of it is religious there have been points in history where gay people have been blamed for everything, it's lovely to know we haven't moved on since the 1400's


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

we learn it - from family and peers


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Thought that was the reason.

But why does it exist? Is it just in our nature to take a dislike to someone we _*think*_ is different?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> Thought that was the reason.
> 
> But why does it exist? Is it just in our nature to take a dislike to someone we _*think*_ is different?


Humans are deeply tribal we always have been and that leads to a distrust of anyone that's different. When you have, as you did for so long, christians saying that any sex other than to produce children is a sin then it's not going to be looked upon well. The receiving male partner has often also been seen as weak as well because they were taking the female position :frown2:


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I think it's a cultural thing, heavily influenced by religion as well...I'm sure I read somewhere the ancient Spartans encouraged homosexual relationships within their ranks as it made the men care more deeply about who they were fighting alongside.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

In other words. Idiots.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Argent said:


> I think it's a cultural thing, heavily influenced by religion as well...I'm sure I read somewhere the ancient Spartans encouraged homosexual relationships within their ranks as it made the men care more deeply about who they were fighting alongside.


It was standard practice in much of ancient greece and persia as well I believe.


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

It's in the Bible


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## moggiemum (Mar 28, 2013)

its still illegal to be gay in lots of countries


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Argent said:


> I think it's a cultural thing, heavily influenced by religion as well...I'm sure I read somewhere the ancient Spartans encouraged homosexual relationships within their ranks as it made the men care more deeply about who they were fighting alongside.


Really? How interesting.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Guess there are lots of theories- at uni I studied Strauss- he figured that the way human beings understand the world is all essentially the same- and we *love* categorising things, particularly with fundamental binary oppositions (man/woman). Anything that blurs those lines causes us 'stress' and 'conflict'. It's the reason he figures that when we transition through categories we mark it in some way (honeymoons- unmarried>married. Funerals- life> death etc..) It's an idea anyway! 

If you go beyond the structure of human understanding thing.... I think it's largely cultural. Prejudice in NI is still pretty bad- largely I imagine on account of the religiosity of the place.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

It could just be that it revolts some people, did you ever consider that?

plus I - personally - think the Gay Pride thing (advertising it loud and proud) has actually had an adverse effect on some people, being homosexual is nothing new but for centuries "they" had the sense and (dare I say it) decency to keep it private, just as many/most heterosexuals did by not advertising their own sexual preferences which, in the main, is of no interest to others....


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

jenniferx said:


> Guess there are lots of theories- at uni I studied Strauss


Richard or JS?

love that Blue Danube!

(in a totally non-**** way)


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> It was standard practice in much of ancient greece and persia as well I believe.


do you?....


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Really? Straight people don't flaunt their sexuality. Lol.

Yeah, because all you see everywhere today in public is a lot of young people eating each others faces. Nothing wrong with kissing in public but when it gets to the point they may as well have their clothes off in public I think that's making a scene.

I don't really see many gay people doing that mind. Hmmm.

Revolting for a man to love a man. I always find it funny when some men hate gay men but don't seem to mind lesbians.

Oh, and even if it is revolting (You can't help how you're brought up) treating someone unequal is wrong. Gay men or women don't deserve to be beaten up, excluded from social groups, bullied because of their sexuality.

Any sexuality actually.

I'm sorry you feel they do.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> It could just be that it revolts some people, did you ever consider that?
> 
> plus I - personally - think the Gay Pride thing (advertising it loud and proud) has actually had an adverse effect on some people, being homosexual is nothing new but for centuries "they" had the sense and (dare I say it) decency to keep it private, just as many/most heterosexuals did by not advertising their own sexual preferences which, in the main, is of no interest to others....


Wow :lol:

Years I've ignored you and the stick other people give you but I've just realised you actually ARE an utter arse.

'decency' to keep it private?! The HELL are you waffling about?!

Keep WHAT private? Who they (I'm bi so I guess here it's 'we') are?

No, don't dare say it, it makes you look as draconian and ridiculous as I hoped you weren't.

Every day, on telly (dating agency adverts etc) in most films, in soaps, general telly, the papers, magazines, you see heterosexual people.

I never consider them as 'flaunting' it, but it becomes a bit different when (dare I say it :001_unsure: ) some people find it revolting.

At least we're equal - We now revolt each other.

Grow up.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

I was going to say that actually.

Magazines are a prime example. Models who flaunt their sexuality telling young girls to spend their time in the mirror painting their faces and wearing revealing clothes to get the boy. Never the girl. Or the boy getting the boy.

Dating websites I see only men and women going on dates when it comes to the adverts.

I hardly ever see gay people on adverts in that way. Why? Because people like you call it revolting. 

I just see a person loving a person and wanting to be with them. Their sex business is none of my business and doesn't faze me at all. I don't think about it, the same way I don't think about a straight couple's sex life. You seem to think about it.

I'm all for expressing an opinion but it's just blood hypocritical.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

You just have to turn on MTV to see heterosexual people"flaunting" their sexuality with racy videos designed at appealing to the opposite sex. Where does decency go in that sense?

What is considered flaunting anyway? Gay people kissing each other in public, is that advertising their sexuality? Or just a normal display of affection between two people? 

I've never understood being revolted by something that has no impact on your life and harms no one. Revolting is a word I would use for killers, sex offenders, not for two men or two women in a relationship together!

That post though just explains why there IS a need for homosexuality to be in the public eye. Until it's no different to see two men kissing in the street than seeing a man and a woman kissing, views like that are going to continue. There is still a lot of work to be done.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Don't bother with him the way I see it he's as entitled to think it's disgusting as people are to be together regardless of gender. 

I don't particularly like seeing people all over each other in public either whatever gender they are.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> I was going to say that actually.
> 
> Magazines are a prime example. Models who flaunt their sexuality telling young girls to spend their time in the mirror painting their faces and wearing revealing clothes to get the boy. Never the girl. Or the boy getting the boy.
> 
> ...


Nor me :001_huh: I really couldn't give a damn if people are black, white, purple (though if they were pink I'd be over the moon :w00t: )

People 'marry' objects and structures for god's sake; that's just them.

Love never caused people harm (and I'm not talking about heartbreak etc) it's hatred and bigotry that ruins things.

I'd love to know exactly WHAT is revolting. You'll either get a sarcastic reply (I.E. no reply at all) or some utter drivel; if someone could actually explain why it was disgusting then I'd listen and understand (see the docking thread for my take on life and listening to others  )


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> Really? Straight people don't flaunt their sexuality. Lol.
> 
> Yeah, because all you see everywhere today in public is a lot of young people eating each others faces. Nothing wrong with kissing in public but when it gets to the point they may as well have their clothes off in public I think that's making a scene.
> 
> ...


You asked a question. If you don't want the answer why ask?

No one sensible that feels uncomfortable with same sex relationships will talk to you with that attitude.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> *Don't bother with him the way I see it he's as entitled to think it's disgusting as people are to be together regardless of gender.
> *
> I don't particularly like seeing people all over each other in public either whatever gender they are.


That ^

She said it better than me for once :001_huh:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Don't bother with him the way I see it he's as entitled to think it's disgusting as people are to be together regardless of gender.
> 
> I don't particularly like seeing people all over each other in public either whatever gender they are.


He didn't say it revolted him!!


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

rona said:


> You asked a question. If you don't want the answer why ask?
> 
> No one sensible that feels uncomfortable with same sex relationships will talk to you with that attitude.


Oh, no, like I said he was entitled to his opinion.

And so am I. 

And I'd like to know what attitude. Yeah he can say he thinks it's revolting and yes he didn't say I but it's clear to see from the rest of what he wrote he does indeed find it revolting.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> Oh, no, like I said he was entitled to his opinion.
> 
> And so am I.


It wasn't put forward as his opinion


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

He's entitled to think it should be hidden away and as long as no one has to see or hear anything icky it's all ok then.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Okay then, my comments will be just in general to what he said then.

Will edit parts tomorrow unless he replies saying it is his opinion which my reply will be fair.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Did you all read a different post to me?



Colliebarmy said:


> It could just be that *it revolts some people*, did you ever consider that?
> 
> plus I - personally - think the Gay Pride thing (advertising it loud and proud) has actually had an adverse effect *on some people*, being homosexual is nothing new but for centuries "they" had the sense and (dare I say it) decency to keep it private, just as* many/most heterosexuals *did by not advertising their own sexual preferences which, in the main, is of no interest to others....


A lot is talking about a time before everything was flaunted


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> It could just be that it revolts some people, did you ever consider that?
> 
> plus I - personally - think the Gay Pride thing (advertising it loud and proud) has actually had an adverse effect on some people, being homosexual is nothing new but for centuries "they" had the sense and (dare I say it) decency to keep it private, just as many/most heterosexuals did by not advertising their own sexual preferences which, in the main, is of no interest to others....





rona said:


> He didn't say it revolted him!!


He DID insinuate it very much, Rona, to be fair


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> He DID insinuate it very much, Rona, to be fair


I didn't read it that way *at all*

How old are all you that are up in arms about that post?

I'm just wondering if it's because you have no concept of how it used to be


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

I personally believe that someone's sexual preference only matters if you want to sleep with them or they want to sleep with you. 

As for race, we are just Multi coloured in life's rich tapestry of looks and beliefs.

I expect to be treated with dignity and respect and I afford other people of that same right.

I don't care if you are black, White, Asian, Hispanic, straight, gay, bi, transgender.... You are a person and deserve to be treated equally.

I have a wonderful transvestite friend, a heterosexual man with a wife and a daughter and he's experienced so much hate. But he is a gorgeous person, he just likes dressing up in a dress, heels and make up occasionally. Does this make him a bad person..... Hell no!

Live and let live I say :thumbup1:


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> It could just be that it revolts some people, did you ever consider that?
> 
> plus I - personally - think the Gay Pride thing (advertising it loud and proud) has actually had an adverse effect on some people, being homosexual is nothing new but for centuries "they" had the sense and (dare I say it) decency to keep it private, just as many/most heterosexuals did by not advertising their own sexual preferences which, in the main, is of no interest to others....


I think gay pride is actually a good thing to be honest. Gay pride is a celebration of a part of the population that has been discriminated against and denied human rights.

Gay pride is all about not being ashamed of what you are.

How could that possibly be a bad thing .


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Yes, but that's not today is it?

We are no longer in the past where people had to hide their sexuality, etc. There's a difference to knowing someone is gay, straight, bi, to flaunting it.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I can agree that everything is too sexualised and I couldn't give a damn about the details of whatever idiot celeb's sex life is being discussed this week or what gender people are sleeping with. It shouldn't need to be some huge thing that a celeb is gay but it does as long as people are being bullied or discriminated against for it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> Yes, but that's not today is it?
> 
> We are no longer in the past where people had to hide their sexuality, etc. There's a difference to knowing someone is gay, straight, bi, to flaunting it.


But you asked a question..don't you want any answers or possibilities put forward?


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

rona said:


> I didn't read it that way *at all*
> 
> How old are all you that are up in arms about that post?
> 
> I'm just wondering if it's because you have no concept of how it used to be


I'm 29 and Nicky is 25; so no, however, my dad is 76 and would (to his preference) rather have me end up with Nicky than any man I've ever met :lol:

(Though we'd kill each other before that :yesnod: )

My mum was 56 when she passed away and was very open minded and couldn't give a damn. My dad would never think of it either.

I appreciate that I've grown up in that environment and, of course, the age I grew up in played a bearing on that, however I feel very strongly about this; to me it's as pointless and nonsensical as racism or, indeed, ageism.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

rona said:


> But you asked a question..don't you want any answers or possibilities put forward?


Sorry for the double post again 

But personally yes, I do, especially with people whose opinions I respect and value xx


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

rona said:


> But you asked a question..don't you want any answers or possibilities put forward?


I'm really confused to what the issue is here now.

He expressed his opinion and it is coming across as his own opinion to which I replied, the same to what you have just said previously. We all agree to disagree so I don't see the problem here. I don't think my post came across rude, no more than what his might have to others.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> I'm 29 and Nicky is 25; so no, however, my dad is 76 and would (to his preference) rather have me end up with Nicky than any man I've ever met :lol:
> 
> (Though we'd kill each other before that :yesnod: )
> 
> ...


But a question was asked "sigh".....................................


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> I'm really confused to what the issue is here now.
> 
> He expressed his opinion and it is coming across as his own opinion to which I replied, the same to what you have just said previously. We all agree to disagree so I don't see the problem here. I don't think my post came across rude, no more than what his might have to others.


As long as your happy that''s ok then. Blacken someones name for no reason. Mmmm


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

See I'm not sure how much age can be used as a reason for the more reprehensible views. My 94 year old grandfather from a poor, working class family was accepting of gay people, my 30 year old step sister from a well off, middle class one is not. And yes, I'm making use of out dated class structures to make a point.

I do understand that culture back then was different, but most people are adaptable and able to move with the times. Racism isn't acceptable, even though it was prevalent in some people's lifetimes, thus homophobia shouldn't be either.

I can understand being uncomfortable with it, if you are of an age and/or culture where you have been taught it's wrong. But real, intense homophobia, the hate and bile some people spew, that is unacceptable whatever your age or culture. A hate crime is a hate crime.

I was lucky in that my parents, and myself, have been brought up with a liberal (and I don't mean that in a political sense) attitude towards people of other races, beliefs and sexualities. I understand that not everyone is that fortunate, but that is something that should, and is, being challenged by awareness raising and education. All of which require homosexuality to be in the public eye and not hidden behind closed doors.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Fluffster said:


> See I'm not sure how much age can be used as a reason for the more reprehensible views. My 94 year old grandfather from a poor, working class family was accepting of gay people, my 30 year old step sister from a well off, middle class one is not. And yes, I'm making use of out dated class structures to make a point.
> 
> I do understand that culture back then was different, but most people are adaptable and able to move with the times. Racism isn't acceptable, even though it was prevalent in some people's lifetimes, thus homophobia shouldn't be either.
> 
> ...


Who's used age? I certainly haven't


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

rona said:


> As long as your happy that''s ok then. Blacken someones name for no reason. Mmmm


Don't really understand what the issue is here so I'll just leave it at that.

Perhaps then he shouldn't comment if there may be different opinionated replies too. Works both ways really, doesn't it?

Oh, and I did say previously that I will be editing that comment and it will be put just in general instead unless he does reply saying it is his opinion. No blacken there.

Night.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

I meant to add in my last post, I like to be able to understand where people with different views are coming from, I think it's good for us all. To challenge beliefs, we first need to understand where they have come from


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> I'm really confused to what the issue is here now.
> 
> He expressed his opinion and it is coming across as his own opinion to which I replied, the same to what you have just said previously. We all agree to disagree so I don't see the problem here. I don't think my post came across rude, no more than what his might have to others.





rona said:


> But a question was asked "sigh".....................................


I think it was just a badly worded opening post is all and now she's explained what she meant so she could either go back and edit her first post or anyone who is bothered enough to read to the second page would understand what she meant anyway



rona said:


> Who's used age? I certainly haven't


You did hen  xx


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Fluffster said:


> I meant to add in my last post, I like to be able to understand where people with different views are coming from, I think it's good for us all. To challenge beliefs, we first need to understand where they have come from


I AGREE. I respect all opinions, doesn't mean I'll agree with them and not get into a discussion and then also put my opinions down too.

That's what debates and discussions are surely.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

rona said:


> Who's used age? I certainly haven't


Well, you asked for our ages so obviously that has some relevance otherwise you wouldn't have asked! 

You mentioned that we may not have been aware of how things "used to be". The inference from that is that people of an older generation may have different views from the current generation because homosexuality wasn't acceptable back then (although arguably it isn't acceptable now for many people!) While I accept that may be the case, there are plenty of people from older generations who are completely accepting of homosexuality, regardless of how things were back then.

(I'm 28 by the way  )


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Flamingoes said:


> I think it was just a badly worded opening post is all and now she's explained what she meant so she could either go back and edit her first post or anyone who is bothered enough to read to the second page would understand what she meant anyway
> 
> You did hen  xx


I didn't. Again that's how it's been interpreted


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Fluffster said:


> Well, you asked for our ages so obviously that has some relevance otherwise you wouldn't have asked!
> 
> You mentioned that we may not have been aware of how things "used to be". The inference from that is that people of an older generation may have different views from the current generation because homosexuality wasn't acceptable back then (although arguably it isn't acceptable now for many people!) While I accept that may be the case, there are plenty of people from older generations who are completely accepting of homosexuality, regardless of how things were back then.
> 
> (I'm 28 by the way  )


Different understanding not necessarily different views.

Why do you all think that a conversation is tantamount to homophobia


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

rona said:


> I didn't read it that way *at all*
> 
> *How old *are all you that are up in arms about that post?
> 
> I'm just wondering if it's because you have no concept of how it used to be


You know I'm fairly sure that counts as bringing age into it :skep:


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> It could just be that it revolts some people, did you ever consider that?


Oh, absolutely, Im quite sure tons of people truly are revolted by homosexuality. But that revolt is absolutely learned.

I mean, poll any western classroom and ask the kids if they think there is anything wrong with drinking milk from a cow. Now ask them if anyone would drink milk from a pig and most will recoil in horror. Why? Cultural conditioning. Weve been conditioned to accept one barn animals milk for human consumption as normal, yet another ones is disgusting.

Wanna have even more fun? Ask a western classroom of teenagers how many of them would drink human milk  
These same kinds who have no problem drinking milk from a cow - totally different species, will be utterly disgusted at the thought of drinking milk from the same species. 
Theyll even sit there and argue with you trying to justify why cows milk is okay but human milk isnt.

Homosexuality is the same thing. People will come up with all sorts of justifications for why its weird, gross, and it makes them uncomfortable, but the bottom line is, its just one human loving another human, and there is nothing weird or unnatural about it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I'll leave you all to not understand then


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Ignorance and prejudice.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

rona said:


> Different understanding not necessarily different views.
> 
> Why do you all think that a conversation is tantamount to homophobia


I'm not really sure what you mean by the last bit, but it is getting late for me  Sorry if I've misinterpreted you at any point. Use 50 words rather than 10 and then I can get the context better! :lol: (I jest  )


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## donna160 (Nov 1, 2013)

I'ts not always about upbringing or learned behaviour IME.
I don't generally mention this and i'm hoping not to get a lot of hassle but as it's come up and relevant to this topic ( also it helps that nobody knows me here) my oldest son despite being brought up in a non-racist environment and having mixed race members of our family - indian and west indian - was for sometime as a teenager very racist  and so was his mixed race best friend!..go figure that one out cos i certainly can't 

He's no longer racist but is homophobic and no amount of reasoning will change his mind, he doesn't say anything to anybody and wouldn't go calling names but he's very anti gay , a family member and some family friends are lesbian and homosexual so he certainly was not brought up that way either.

None of my other children are racist or homophobic, nor are any other family members it was just my son.

A previous friends husbands grandfather was black yet he's (friends husband) very racist and so is the rest of his family!

Who knows what goes on in some peoples minds or why? but i can't after the examples i've just given believe that it's only learned behaviour and/or upbringing in every case.
Some ignorant stupid peer pressure wrong though it is i can understand a little, but a grown man who's grandfather was black, and a mixed race (west indian) boy racist against black people and asians and a child from a multi-cultural family  i really can't think of any reasoning behind that.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

donna160 said:


> I'ts not always about upbringing or learned behaviour IME.
> I don't generally mention this and i'm hoping not to get a lot of hassle but as it's come up and relevant to this topic ( also it helps that nobody knows me here) my oldest son despite being brought up in a non-racist environment and having mixed race members of our family - indian and west indian - in our family was for sometime as a teenager very racist  and so was his mixed race best friend!..go figure that one out cos i certainly can't
> 
> He's no longer racist but is homophobic and no amount of reasoning will change his mind, he doesn't say anything to anybody and wouldn't go calling names but he's very anti gay , a family member and some family friends are lesbian and homosexual so he certainly was not brought up that way either.
> ...


That could just be a teenager finding his feet though


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

A lot of men are homophobic because in their own mind because one man likes men they believe that every man is a target for their fancy and it scares them. Gay men just like the rest of us have things that they like or don't like, brown hair, blonde hair, hairy men, short men. It takes all sorts.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Firedog said:


> A lot of men are homophobic because in their own mind because one man likes men they believe that every man is a target for their fancy and it scares them. Gay men just like the rest of us have things that they like or don't like, brown hair, blonde hair, hairy men, short men. It takes all sorts.


Those are the same men, the minority of men thankfully, who whine about being friendzoned because god forbid a woman have preferences that don't include them. So they think that all gay men must want them too :frown2:


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

Firedog said:


> A lot of men are homophobic because in their own mind because one man likes men they believe that every man is a target for their fancy and it scares them. Gay men just like the rest of us have things that they like or don't like, brown hair, blonde hair, hairy men, short men. It takes all sorts.


I've heard that a lot of men who are homophobic are in denial about the attraction they feel to the same sex. I don't know how true that is, just something I've heard a lot from other people.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

.


donna160 said:


> I'ts not always about upbringing or learned behaviour IME.
> I don't generally mention this and i'm hoping not to get a lot of hassle but as it's come up and relevant to this topic ( also it helps that nobody knows me here) my oldest son despite being brought up in a non-racist environment and having mixed race members of our family - indian and west indian - in our family was for sometime as a teenager very racist  and so was his mixed race best friend!..go figure that one out cos i certainly can't
> 
> He's no longer racist but is homophobic and no amount of reasoning will change his mind, he doesn't say anything to anybody and wouldn't go calling names but he's very anti gay , a family member and some family friends are lesbian and homosexual so he certainly was not brought up that way either.
> ...


That's interesting, thanks for posting!

I do think genetics have an impact in how readily or easily you accept new ways of thinking etc. While I don't believe racism etc can be inbuilt in a human being, it makes sense to me that some people may be more prone to it given certain personality traits, or at least more easily influenced by others and by experiences.

I wonder sometimes if people who are struggling with their own place in the world project that onto certain groups. I can't think of a better way to explain it right now, but it could be a sort of misplaced hatred, an outlet for someone's feelings about other aspects of their life.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Royoyo said:


> I've heard that a lot of men who are homophobic are in denial about the attraction they feel to the same sex. I don't know how true that is, just something I've heard a lot from other people.


I got fed up of writing but that was another point I nearly put in my post.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Firedog said:


> A lot of men are homophobic because in their own mind because one man likes men they believe that every man is a target for their fancy and it scares them. Gay men just like the rest of us have things that they like or don't like, brown hair, blonde hair, hairy men, short men. It takes all sorts.


This makes me laugh as it reminds me of a chap I knew when I was a teenager. He said "I don't mind gay people as long as they don't come onto me!" But as I pointed out to him, women didn't come on to him so it was unlikely he'd strike lucky with men either :lol:


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Royoyo said:


> I've heard that a lot of men who are homophobic are in denial about the attraction they feel to the same sex. I don't know how true that is, just something I've heard a lot from other people.


To be honest I think that's just hyperbole from the very pro gay community.

I don't really believe that.

I think it's par for the course that women tend to be more receptive to other womens beauty and are more comfortable saying so but just men being men I doubt the statement 

I don't think you can really give a 'why' people think as they do; they just do.

To Donna;

As a teenager I was brought up in a very gothic tradition (and I don't mean the teenage type obsession with it or the movie versions  truly gothic beliefs etc) but at one point I thought I was a neo-nazi and had nazi flags up in my room etc, at a younger age I thought being 'gay' was eeewwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

At an age younger I thought everything was eeeewwwwwwwwww :lol:

You come back to your routes, eventually, for me it was when I hit 16, for others I guess it takes longer or shorter times or they never deviate or always will.

I quite like the diversity, however


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I always remember my line leader when I worked at a factory. He was so gay he was mincing and could be quite vulgar at times but we always had a damn good laugh.

My best friends brother and his missus both have same sex relationships within their marriage. Can you imagine my surprise when turning up at my friends New Years Eve party and the brother was there with his new boyfriend which just happened to be my line leader from work. We had a good catch up that night.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Royoyo said:


> I've heard that a lot of men who are homophobic are in denial about the attraction they feel to the same sex. I don't know how true that is, just something I've heard a lot from other people.


I don't believe that I think it's the reason in some cases but blown way out of proportion.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Firedog said:


> I always remember my line leader when I worked at a factory. He was so gay he was mincing and could be quite vulgar at times but we always had a damn good laugh.
> 
> My best friends brother and his missus both have same sex relationships within their marriage. Can you imagine my surprise when turning up at my friends New Years Eve party and the brother was there with his new boyfriend which just happened to be my line leader from work. We had a good catch up that night.


Awk that's awesome :001_wub:

I quite like the mincing types just for being them, to be honest :lol: they don't give a damn and I love it


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## donna160 (Nov 1, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> To be honest I think that's just hyperbole from the very pro gay community.
> 
> I don't really believe that.


That was going to be my next post lol.

I was a part of the gay scene/community for around 10 years and all the time heard that old chestnut lol not just from the men either!
I also have to be honest and say that some lesbians and homosexuals are also anti-heterosexual too.
Things were harder and more 'them and us' than they are now though, but unfortunately it hasn't fully gone and i don't think it ever really will.

Same as with racism that will never fully go either, there's too much mistrust between different cultures and lifestyles because of past history and it's going to take a long long time to try to heal that.

Just to say re my son, thankfully it was a teenage thing Flamingoes and he dotes on my niece who's mixed race woe betide anybody should say anything to her lol.I'll never know why he did feel like he did though, i don't think he does either.
But the homophobia will never go he really feels very strongly about it, it doesn't help that his girlfriends family is especially homophobic too :mad2:


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

donna160 said:


> I'ts not always about upbringing or learned behaviour IME.
> I don't generally mention this and i'm hoping not to get a lot of hassle but as it's come up and relevant to this topic ( also it helps that nobody knows me here) my oldest son despite being brought up in a non-racist environment and having mixed race members of our family - indian and west indian - was for sometime as a teenager very racist  and so was his mixed race best friend!..go figure that one out cos i certainly can't
> 
> He's no longer racist but is homophobic and no amount of reasoning will change his mind, he doesn't say anything to anybody and wouldn't go calling names but he's very anti gay , a family member and some family friends are lesbian and homosexual so he certainly was not brought up that way either.
> ...


i dont think it's entirely learned too.. i come from a mixed race family and was never brought up to be racist yet one of my earliest memories is having an argument with my elder, darker sister on the way back from the park and calling her a... chocolate mouse.... i didnt even realise what i was saying was too bad untill i saw the look on her face change. Can remember getting the hiding of my life that night too 

But obviously i wasnt brought up to be racist yet even at a young age i was insulting someone based on how they look... it probably could have been big nose or red hair or anything but i dont think it was learned so much as visual difference. So in a way i think (some) people need to be taught _not_ to be racist rather than are taught to be racist.


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## Space Chick (Dec 10, 2011)

My first husband now runs a gay bar in Bristol 

We still adore each other, just wish he'd realised he was gay before we were married and had a mortgage 

As for marriages with same sex relationships.... Two very dear friends of mine, their story of getting together is pretty cool, he was in a gay relationship, she was in a lesbian relationship, they were both bisexual.... They met, fell in love, and now are happily married with 2 children!


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

My nan has to be one of the most homophobic racist people I know.

My mum and her sisters don't agree with her.

I don't agree with her.

My son doesn't agree with her.

So I don't know if its learnt or not, or if its genetic or not - but obviously not in our family - maybe we are just weird!

I think people that make a huge fuss over these things are just scared - scared of the unknown - they know what they like and they like what they know.

Doesn't make them right - but also doesn't make them the devils spawn - just makes more open minded and accepting people frustrated.

If everyone went by 'live and let live, love and not hate' the world would be a much happier and peaceful place - IMHO.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

donna160 said:


> That was going to be my next post lol.
> 
> I was a part of the gay scene/community for around 10 years and all the time heard that old chestnut lol not just from the men either!
> I also have to be honest and say that some lesbians and homosexuals are also anti-heterosexual too.
> ...


I still think he may come back to his routes; just keep enforcing what you believe and let him make his own mind up; from what you've said I can't see why he wouldn't though if they are the views that he's formed himself then I guess that's just who he is xx



porps said:


> i dont think it's entirely learned too.. i come from a mixed race family and was never brought up to be racist yet one of my earliest memories is having an argument with my elder, darker sister on the way back from the park and calling her a... chocolate mouse.... i didnt even realise what i was saying was too bad untill i saw the look on her face change. Can remember getting the hiding of my life that night too
> 
> But obviously i wasnt brought up to be racist yet even at a young age i was insulting someone based on how they look... it probably could have been big nose or red hair or anything but i dont think it was learned so much as visual difference. So in a way i think (some) people need to be taught _not_ to be racist rather than are taught to be racist.


S*dding hell I liked one of your posts for once 

Yes I agree with this also; differences CAN be scary and aren't meant as an insult as a very young child, perhaps.

As I say; I was brought up traditionally gothically so was always used to utter differences, lifestyles etc and never even thought my best friend (at the time) was black until we got to high school at which point she bullied me to pieces which (with hindsight - that beautiful word again) suggests I didn't act like other people may have done to her


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I do think it's at least mostly learned. Many of the kids I grew up with didn't like catholics. Entirely learned behaviour because we didn't know the difference just that we should because we were protestant. My parents never taught me that but if I listened to my father I'd be running to join the bnp so it is possible to reject it. 

People fear what they don't understand and if all they know of gay people is they're all paedophiles or predatory then yes justifiably they're going to fear them. If they took the time to get to know them that fear goes away. Same as if all you knew was muslims were terrorists or all black people were gangsters.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)




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## donna160 (Nov 1, 2013)

MCWillow said:


> I think people that make a huge fuss over these things are just scared - scared of the unknown - they know what they like and they like what they know.


This is something i've never got my head around and i really have tried  i can understand fear of the unknown of course but how is somebody being a different skin colour or different sexuality the unknown?
Maybe it was donkeys years ago but nowadays it isn't, kids are taught about it at school from a young age.

I don't know if this is a good example or not , i come from a very small predominantly 'white' village other than an asian family running the local shop who tbh i never noticed was a 'different' colour, i'd always known them and played with their son at nursery and school.
Anyway i remember being about 6 (in the 1970's ) going to hospital in a large town to have my head stitched up and the nurse was black.
I was surprised and curious but not scared, i had never seen a black person before and when we left i asked my mum why the nurse was a different colour to us she explained it to me and that was that, only thing that bothered me was if i had to go to school the next day 

As i said in a previous post i was part of the gay scene/community for some years but i can't remember the first time i ever met anybody gay so i can't have been that scared then either.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

donna160 said:


> *This is something i've never got my head around and i really have tried  i can understand fear of the unknown of course but how is somebody being a different skin colour or different sexuality the unknown?
> Maybe it was donkeys years ago but nowadays it isn't, kids are taught about it at school from a young age.*
> 
> I don't know if this is a good example or not , i come from a very small predominantly 'white' village other than an asian family running the local shop who tbh i never noticed was a 'different' colour, i'd always known them and played with their son at nursery and school.
> ...


Which is very much why I said he'd come back to his routes; I'm glad you have joined this forum and very glad for another unbiased and willing to live and learn opinion.

Would rep you yet again but I can't

Will Pm you xxxxx


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## katGirlDo (Nov 8, 2013)

I always remember, when I was about 10, watching some crime drama on TV. There was a part, only a tiny snip it, where some porn could be seen on the screen. Some sort of evidence that had been found or something. It must have been gay porn because I remember asking my mum how gay men had sex. And my mum just told me. No beating around the bush, no making a big deal about it - Just something on along the lines of "in the bum".
I then remember saying "Oh...so how do 2 women have sex?". She told me she didn't know- I guess she drew the line at telling me about dildos! :lol:

So many men that say gay sex is wrong - most of them probably happily watch men and women doing the same act in adult films regularly.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

ignorance, a fear of something they don't under stand and learnt behaviour (from family or peers)

any of the above.

Sadly the world still needs Pride and such, because they are still a largely oppressed group - in danger of violence and prejudice, in some countries without the same rights as straight couples.

Pride isn't just for gay people to celebrate their sexuality but for their allies to as well, to make it known they have nothing to be ashamed of.

I can walk down the road with my oh hand in hand and no one cares... his best mate does the same with his fella and they are accussed of flaunting it and rubbing it in people's faces. They just want the same normality.

My OH has spent A lot of time with gay men and the only time he's been propositioned is in gay bars (which youd expect, frankly)- and they simply go away when told his straight... simple. It's certainly less hassle than women get in clubs by blokes, who when told no continue to hassle... they are rubbing my face in their heterosexuality and no one cares...

most homophobes I know seem to think gay men are going to try and turn then at first chance... It is pure ignorance that says that, cos it just doesn't happen!

The same people are rarely bothered by lesbians oddly enough.

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I was brought up in the days when being gay was illegal. And until VERY recently i was anti gay. If i'm honest i think the 3 things that made me anti gay were, the fact it was illegal, it was against what the bible said, and lastly i didn't believe for one moment that people were born "that way".
*


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> I was brought up in the days when being gay was illegal. And until VERY recently i was anti gay. If i'm honest i think the 3 things that made me anti gay were, the fact it was illegal, it was against what the bible said, and lastly i didn't believe for one moment that people were born "that way".


You obviously feel different, and I can understand the first and partly the second but Iv never understood the choice argument as it insinuates we all choose our sexuality... At no point did I choose to be straight, I just am. The same applies to homosexuality, it just usually takes a brave step to accept it and come out to family and friends as it is still against what is considered 'normal' (requiring you to tell people before you just show up with another fella one day... otherwise there would be some shock..)

Can I ask what made you change your opinion?

_Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

grumpy goby said:


> You obviously feel different, and I can understand the first and partly the second but Iv never understood the choice argument as it insinuates we all choose our sexuality... At no point did I choose to be straight, I just am. The same applies to homosexuality, it just usually takes a brave step to accept it and come out to family and friends as it is still against what is considered 'normal' (requiring you to tell people before you just show up with another fella one day... otherwise there would be some shock..)
> 
> Can I ask what made you change your opinion?
> 
> _Posted from Petforums.co.uk App for Android_


*To answer your question as to what made me change my opinion, it was my daughter. We very often have very strong debates about different things. She has also changed my mind on my religious beliefs.*


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> Don't bother with him the way I see it he's as entitled to think it's disgusting as people are to be together regardless of gender.
> *
> I don't particularly like seeing people all over each other in public either whatever gender they are.*


I'll second that!

In some ancient societies, homosexuality was encouraged, or at least tolerated. These tended to be settled cultures which had (on the whole) a good chance of raising children to adulthood, and where surplus babies would be 'exposed' - effectively put out to die or be killed by wild animals.

Many other societies, largely nomadic ones, had less chance of raising healthy children to adulthood. It was harder for a woman to carry children full term if the tribe was constantly on the move, or if they were being attacked by bandits/other tribes etc. There tended to be less reliable food and water. Children were fewer (on average), harder to raise, and very precious. For instance, in Judaism, NO child would be exposed , or dumped - the respect for life was much greater.

In a situation like this, homosexualiity reduced the number of children born (in many ancient Greek societies, women were regarded as being useful for procreation only - just breeding machines), and children were necessary to keep the tribe going. In personal terms, children were, quite literally, a person's only chance of being cared for in their old age, and certainly their only chance of 'immortality' - if you had no children, when you died, your name died with you. In order to keep numbers up, homosexuality was discouraged, and then made subject to purity laws which effectively demonised it. You will notice that there are no laws in the Bible forbidding lesbianism. Women just didn't have that choice. Generally in such societies both boys and girls were married early to continue the tribal structure.

Like many other 'laws' in the Bible, it has been taken out of its cultural context and used to justify cruelty and abuse of people who are the way God made them. There appears to be a larger number of homosexuals than there used to be, but I wonder if that is just because there is less (legal) homophobia, so that they are able to state their sexuality without fear, OR if it is nature's way of trying to control a massively increasing world population?

Whatever it is - homosexuality occurs in animals other than humankind and is a natural part of creation. Personally I have always felt that a person's sexuality is their own business, and as long as they do it with other consenting adults, and no children or animals are harmed, then they have every right to indulge their preferences, be they heter-, ****-, or bi-sexual, or what might be termed "kinky". After all - so what? We are all just people who find some things exciting and others a complete turn-off.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

katGirlDo said:


> I always remember, when I was about 10, watching some crime drama on TV. There was a part, only a tiny snip it, where some porn could be seen on the screen. Some sort of evidence that had been found or something. It must have been gay porn because I remember asking my mum how gay men had sex. And my mum just told me. No beating around the bush, no making a big deal about it - Just something on along the lines of "in the bum".
> I then remember saying "Oh...so how do 2 women have sex?". She told me she didn't know- *I guess she drew the line at telling me about dildos!* :lol:
> 
> So many men that say gay sex is wrong - most of them probably happily watch men and women doing the same act in adult films regularly.


Or "cunning linguism" (*ahem*)


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

JANICE199 said:


> *To answer your question as to what made me change my opinion, it was my daughter. We very often have very strong debates about different things. She has also changed my mind on my religious beliefs.*


Thats nice to hear


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I don't know if anyone has seen this film, but it is an eye opener for anyone anti gay. It is a true story. Very sad. It's only 2 mins long.

Prayers for Bobby Trailer - YouTube*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

[youtube_browser]HFPqDUQKmt8[/youtube_browser]

This shows the times and countrywide attitudes that I grew up within.. Listen when he's asked about Homosexuals being good leaders and what he says about women!! 

It was the film about his life that shaped my views

[youtube_browser]7ymbgf0MDE8[/youtube_browser]

He doesn't come across as a particularly nice human being, but I admired him


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2014)

rona said:


> I'll leave you all to not understand then


What is it that you think people arent understanding?
How things used to be? What attitudes used to be like back in the day?

Just because people didnt live it, doesnt mean they cant grasp that attitudes (and laws) used to be different.

However, understanding is not the same thing as accepting.

I can understand that if you grew up in a different time your views on homosexuality might be affected by that. That doesnt mean I have to accept things used to be different as a justification for homophobia.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> What is it that you think people arent understanding?
> How things used to be? What attitudes used to be like back in the day?
> 
> Just because people didnt live it, doesnt mean they cant grasp that attitudes (and laws) used to be different.
> ...


*I don't think anyone has said it was/is justification. It was the way it was. Nothing can change that.*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't think anyone has said it was/is justification. It was the way it was. Nothing can change that.*


Was I supposed to have said that?  

Weird the slant some people put on things 

My OH is 16 years my junior, this was 16 years of great change and sometimes I talk about things which he cannot comprehend purely through lack of experiencing.

You can only truly understand something if you have experienced it. You can empathize, agree or disagree but you cannot know.....


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Out of curiosity, how are people defining homophobia? Are we simply talking people who are definitely anti, or also including the realms of 'I disapprove of what you do, but I will defend to the death your right to do it' (with apologies to Voltaire!)?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> Out of curiosity, how are people defining homophobia? Are we simply talking people who are definitely anti, or also including the realms of 'I disapprove of what you do, but I will defend to the death your right to do it' (with apologies to Voltaire!)?


Or even those that are slightly uncomfortable?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Jesthar said:


> Out of curiosity, how are people defining homophobia? Are we simply talking people who are definitely anti, or also including the realms of 'I disapprove of what you do, but I will defend to the death your right to do it' (with apologies to Voltaire!)?


*I can only speak for myself. When i was anti gay, i was 100% anti. I would say, out of my 64 years i spent probably 60 being anti.In my book there was no excuse for being gay.
Just goes to show, that people can change their views.*


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

My parents are 70 and my in-laws are 80
My parents 'youth' was the 1960's they accept everyone for who they are - gay, straight, black, white
My In-laws 'youth' was the 1950's they accept everyones rights but find certain things like sexuality uncomfortable.
I'm in my 40's my youth was the 1980's it never occurred to me that anyone should be treated differently because of their sexuality, I remember the media sensation over Boy George and not understanding what all the fuss was about
My husband is in his 50's his youth was the 1970's he clearing remembers Boy George and see's the media frenzy completely differently, he says Boy George was brave and gave a totally new perspective and ground breaking in many ways 

I hate public displays of affection - I don't care if you are gay, straight or whatever, Get A Room!!!!! 

I also think peoples defination of homophobia is varied - is it speaking out against gays or physically/mentally abusing them or even just accepting them but feeling uncomfortable?

I have never understood this obsession with other peoples sexuality


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

"Homophobia" came from media sound biting and doesn't really exist .... 
.....but dislike of or prejudice against homosexuals , that's a whole different raft of reasons


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

rona said:


> Or even those that are slightly uncomfortable?


But you can´t force people to be comfortable with the things you believe in, or do. If that is the case then when we have argued about religion here, I woudn´t have gotten all the lovely comments I did and I had to respect. Also I would like to know why there are certain aspects of one that everyone respects and expects others to do the same and others are not. Shoudn´t the rule apply to everything?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

People are perfectly within their right to hold personal beliefs, be them from cultural reasoning, religion or whatever. No one can be forced to change their view on anything

However, an individuals opinion should not affect the rights of another. If one doesnt like homosexuality, thats up to you, but it shouldn't affect what rights homosexuals have (or should have).


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> People are perfectly within their right to hold personal beliefs, be them from cultural reasoning, religion or whatever. No one can be forced to change their view on anything
> 
> However, an individuals opinion should not affect the rights of another. If one doesnt like homosexuality, thats up to you, but it shouldn't affect what rights homosexuals have (or should have).


Exactly

Times must have changed....


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

When all's said and done it's nobody's business who you take to bed. Hence the whole 'coming out' thing annoys me, because there should be no need to make any great announcement about your preferences that concern nobody else. I wish it could be "Hi Mum&Dad/best-friend/hotel-receptionist, this is George/Josephine/Ahmed/Giovanni/Tatamungo and we love each other". 

For the record I take a teddy bear and two cats to bed.

Seriously though, phobia means fear, not hate. Fear is at the root of all hate, intolerance, prejudice and everything horrible in the world. Even an animal that turns against you, or attacks men wearing red wellies holding a pineapple in their left hand, does so out of fear, not malice. 

I agree with the poster (sorry I forget who now) who mentioned the tribal element and focus on difference. To make sense and be able to function in the world, we must be able to categorise and classify. It's how we learn. Eg - "I hate dogs because I was attacked by a dog once" (not me just an example!). This is why we make generalisations about a race or a breed of animals. It's a small step from there that when you feel threatened you go from recognising difference to full-on phobia.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I would say religeon is at the foot of a lot of distrust/dislike


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> I would say religeon is at the foot of a lot of distrust/dislike


I would agree !


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> But you can´t force people to be comfortable with the things you believe in, or do. If that is the case then when we have argued about religion here, I woudn´t have gotten all the lovely comments I did and I had to respect. Also I would like to know why there are certain aspects of one that everyone respects and expects others to do the same and others are not. Shoudn´t the rule apply to everything?


Again I'm not saying they should. I'm with Fleur on this one, I also hate public displays of affection whatever the orientation, particularly those with sexual inference. I'm also slightly uncomfortable with overtly camp people.

I'm not judging, I have a friend who battled with trying to go for a sex change. Funnily enough, I didn't feel uncomfortable with that.

We can't help how we feel but we can help how we think.

Until I was 11 I had never seen a black/coloured person in the flesh....try and imagine that when faced with the bigotry of the day.

I don't class myself as racist and never have but that first encounter felt very weird.

I wish I understood your last question because I'd try and answer it 
I've read it several times now and I just don't know what it is you are asking


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> When all's said and done it's nobody's business who you take to bed. Hence the whole 'coming out' thing annoys me, because there should be no need to make any great announcement about your preferences that concern nobody else. I wish it could be "Hi Mum&Dad/best-friend/hotel-receptionist, this is George/Josephine/Ahmed/Giovanni/Tatamungo and we love each other". .


That's exactly what Quentin Crisp said in that interview


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

rona said:


> Again I'm not saying they should. I'm with Fleur on this one, I also hate public displays of affection whatever the orientation, particularly those with sexual inference. I'm also slightly uncomfortable with overtly camp people.
> 
> I'm not judging, I have a friend who battled with trying to go for a sex change. Funnily enough, I didn't feel uncomfortable with that.
> 
> ...


I _think_ she is inferring that religious folk have to respect anti-religious statements, but other people dont have to respect ideas promoted by the religious.

ie no one respects a Christians idea that homosexuality is inherently wrong, however they [christians] are expected to respect views that are actively anti-theistic.

I may be wrong.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Id like to add one can respect the right to hold any belief, doesnt mean you have to respect the belief itself...


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2014)

rona said:


> Was I supposed to have said that?
> 
> Weird the slant some people put on things


No, I didnt say you or anyone had said that. I simply said that not accepting something doesnt mean you dont understand it.



rona said:


> My OH is 16 years my junior, this was 16 years of great change and sometimes I talk about things which he cannot comprehend purely through lack of experiencing.
> 
> You can only truly understand something if you have experienced it. You can empathize, agree or disagree but you cannot know.....


Sorry, but you dont get to say what others are and are not capable of understanding and knowing. Just because your OH cant or wont or doesnt understand something, doesnt mean the same applies to everyone else and their capabilities of understanding.

I dont need to have first hand experience with poking a fork in my eye to have an understanding that it will hurt


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Well we all know its a fear of, fear of something that some people cannot understand in any way shape or form or want to. Men mostly, especially went its men with men, the very idea of what they do with each other sends shivers down a lot of hetro males spines. Therefore the is fear of it. Men are not afraid of lesbians as they find that idea intriguing (quell surprise) 

I don't see the reason for gay pride marches/carnivals etc, but then I would poo poo the idea of a hetro pride march too. Although having decades of having to hide I can understand the reason behind the yoohoo look at me and you can't touch me mentality. 

What people of ANY sexual orientation do with their partner is no ones business but their own, I just don't want to see any of it in my face. I am certainly no prude, I would rather not walk down the street and have the pleasure of seeing people suck face (some practically eat each other) no matter whether it's girl on girl boy on boy or boy on girl. Keep it for your own privacy. 

Oh and I hate the videos on MTV I find them degrading, I have also been known to hit the off switch on the TV now and then too, there's no need for graphic in your face stuff, I much preferred the old films where there was just a hint of sexual shenanigans, and you could make up your own mind, I don't want to see panting etc on my screen ta muchly.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

ouesi said:


> No, I didnt say you or anyone had said that. I simply said that not accepting something doesnt mean you dont understand it.
> 
> Sorry, but you dont get to say what others are and are not capable of understanding and knowing. Just because your OH cant or wont or doesnt understand something, doesnt mean the same applies to everyone else and their capabilities of understanding.
> 
> I dont need to have first hand experience with poking a fork in my eye to have an understanding that it will hurt


*But unless someone has lived, or experienced living in a society where something goes totally against the grain and the law, how can anyone really know what it's like?
It's like telling someone that has lost a loved one, you know how they feel, but if you have never been there you don't.*


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

To be fair to organised religions (as opposed to in-the-heart faith) their function originally was:

1. to promote good health and hygiene
eg pork meat in the days before refrigeration would be dangerous in hot climates

2. to give guidance for harmonious social living
eg the 10 Commandments

both with the purpose of good strong healthy happy successful society -

3. to offer reward for living well and being a good citizen
eg Heaven or a higher life form for the next life

4. to promise punishment for causing suffering to others
eg yep you got it hell or equivalent

both to make sure the rules are enforced.

Homosexuality (reality check) means no babies to add to the strong healthy successful society, and therefore way way back in primitive history would not be a wise practice to advocate. So hellfire and eternal damnation it is. 

Of course in modern times a lot of the religious rules no longer make sense (eg we have fridges!) but it isn't easy to change a religious text thousands of years old to keep up with the times.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> I would say religeon is at the foot of a lot of distrust/dislike


not to mention wars, hence the current terrorist threats, if only the Crusaders had not gone to the Holy Land....bit late now


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

It's a lack of understanding for many & with some, abject closed-mindedness & bigotry, people can't deny there are still homophobic undertones within even our supposedly 'enlightened' society.

I prefer to get up in arms about things that really matter, like animal cruelty & child abuse, than about what consenting adults do.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> To be fair to organised religions (as opposed to in-the-heart faith) their function originally was:
> 
> 1. to promote good health and hygiene
> eg pork meat in the days before refrigeration would be dangerous in hot climates


just pork?......


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> I prefer to get up in arms about things that really matter, like animal cruelty & child abuse, than about what consenting adults do.


I dont care what they do but they want to make it the norm and 100% acceptable.......which it will never be


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

> 4. to promise punishment for causing suffering to others
> eg yep you got it hell or equivalent


The Church has done enough to CAUSE suffering....burning "witches" and then theres the Spanish Inquisition...


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Colliebarmy said:


> I dont care what they do but they want to make it the norm and 100% acceptable.......which it will never be


In time, I think it will.

Not that long ago inter-racial couples werent acceptable either....


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> The Church has done enough to CAUSE suffering....burning "witches" and then theres the Spanish Inquisition...


Crusades, etc - I'm being very careful not to judge any religion, just offering a thought on "where homophobia comes from"


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> Crusades, etc - I'm being very careful not to judge any religion, just offering a thought on "where homophobia comes from"


Maybe it didn't come from anywhere in particular but from everywhere in general.  I would be very surprised to find that homophobia is the result of a particular country or religion.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> I dont care what they do but they want to make it the norm and 100% acceptable.......which it will never be


I don't think you can predict how people will feel in 50, 100, 200 years time, but if it bothers you, take comfort in the fact that you won't be around any more


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

bird said:


> Maybe it didn't come from anywhere in particular but from everywhere in general.  I would be very surprised to find that homophobia is the result of a particular country or religion.


Not at all what I meant ... please see my previous post which hopefully puts that comment into context!

_________________________________________

This just popped up on my facebook:

LGBT Activist Arrested for Waving Rainbow Flag at Sochi Olympic Torch Relay | I Acknowledge


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> I _think_ she is inferring that religious folk have to respect anti-religious statements, but other people dont have to respect ideas promoted by the religious.
> 
> ie no one respects a Christians idea that homosexuality is inherently wrong, however they [christians] are expected to respect views that are actively anti-theistic.
> 
> I may be wrong.


I´m trying to say that personally I have felt exremely disrespected by some people because I am a catholic, they have not bothered measuring their words when expressing their feelings. So why I believe we are all equal in the eyes of the law and God loves everyone and that people should not be discriminated and treated with respect, I would like to know why some people are respected more than others. This is what I have felt in many arguments.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

merlin12 said:


> I´m trying to say that personally I have felt exremely disrespected by some people because I am a catholic, they have not bothered measuring their words when expressing their feelings. So why I believe we are all equal in the eyes of the law and God loves everyone and that people should not be discriminated and treated with respect, I would like to know why some people are respected more than others. This is what I have felt in many arguments.


Who do you feel is being more respected?

Disagreeing with an opinion or set of beliefs is different to being disrespectful, so I am not sure what you are inferring.. If people have been rude, then that is wrong, however Im not sure how that equals some people deserving more respect than others.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

ouesi said:


> No, I didnt say you or anyone had said that. I simply said that not accepting something doesnt mean you dont understand it.
> 
> Sorry, but you dont get to say what others are and are not capable of understanding and knowing. Just because your OH cant or wont or doesnt understand something, doesnt mean the same applies to everyone else and their capabilities of understanding.
> 
> I dont need to have first hand experience with poking a fork in my eye to have an understanding that it will hurt


This is true but until you have a go you won't know exactly how much it will hurt


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> Who do you feel is being more respected?
> 
> Disagreeing with an opinion or set of beliefs is different to being disrespectful, so I am not sure what you are inferring.. If people have been rude, then that is wrong, however Im not sure how that equals some people deserving more respect than others.


Yes, disagreeing is very ok and even healthy as long as you don´t treat the person as if they were suffering from some kind of mental illness or that you are superior to them. This is something that I have felt when people have argued with me about my faith. I have felt on some occassions that they feel that I somehow warrant less respect and it is simply an observation, when talking about some social sensitive topics people are more careful about what they say or think so as not to hurt sensitivities. But above all, coming back to this topic, it is definitely not right to treat anyone less because they live their lives different from how we do but I find the gay parade too provocative and it removes seriousness from those people who want to be part and parcel of society and not seen differently.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

merlin12 said:


> I´m trying to say that personally I have felt exremely disrespected by some people because I am a catholic, they have not bothered measuring their words when expressing their feelings. So why I believe we are all equal in the eyes of the law and God loves everyone and that people should not be discriminated and treated with respect, I would like to know why some people are respected more than others. This is what I have felt in many arguments.


Merlin12 Firstly I hope what I have commented has not made you feel disrespected, if it has I apologise as that is not my intention.

Please can you clarify something for me and I am asking because I don't see it in your post, I am not having a pop at anyone. May I ask what you personally believe about homosexuality? I am not sure from your post whether you are saying homosexuals shouldn't be discriminated against or whether you are saying Catholics shouldn't be discriminated against if they have homophobic views.

Catholicism is very outspoken against homosexuality, so if God loves everyone equally, yet the very highest members of the Catholic clergy say some pretty horrible things about gay people, it's coming across to me as a non-Catholic that something is amiss.

Edit - Apologies, we've crossed posts  I see now.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *But unless someone has lived, or experienced living in a society where something goes totally against the grain and the law, how can anyone really know what it's like?
> It's like telling someone that has lost a loved one, you know how they feel, but if you have never been there you don't.*


Or saying you know how it was to live with rationing in the war. You just don't unless you were there.
Even those that have lived on war rations for a while to gain an understanding still wouldn't really know


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

merlin12 said:


> Yes, disagreeing is very ok and even healthy as long as you don´t treat the person as if they were suffering from some kind of mental illness or that you are superior to them. This is something that I have felt when people have argued with me about my faith. I have felt on some occassions that they feel that I somehow warrant less respect and it is simply an observation, when talking about some social sensitive topics people are more careful about what they say or think so as not to hurt sensitivities. But above all, coming back to this topic, it is definitely not right to treat anyone less because they live their lives different from how we do but I find the gay parade too provocative and it removes seriousness from those people who want to be part and parcel of society and not seen differently.


I have been to several prides and they are not intended to be provocative, its a shame that you feel that way. They are joyous, fun occassions where people can celebrate who they are, take a stand against discrimination and violence they still face and promote acceptance and diversity.

Also: As I said, that some people have been rude is unacceptable, there is simply no need - but do not mistake this for having more respect for them than others, it is just rudeness.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> I have been to several prides and they are not intended to be provocative, its a shame that you feel that way. They are joyous, fun occassions where people can celebrate who they are, take a stand against discrimination and violence they still face and promote acceptance and diversity.


Absolutely this!

Don't like pride events, don't go, it's not like they hold them in peoples' living rooms


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> I have been to several prides and they are not intended to be provocative, its a shame that you feel that way. They are joyous, fun occassions where people can celebrate who they are, take a stand against discrimination and violence they still face and promote acceptance and diversity.
> 
> *Also: As I said, that some people have been rude is unacceptable, there is simply no need - but do not mistake this for having more respect for them than others, it is just rudeness.*


Arrrgh you edited your post again :lol:

Still agree with it though :thumbup1:


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> Arrrgh you edited your post again :lol:
> 
> Still agree with it though :thumbup1:


haha sorry!! I post on the run and nearly always edit afterwards!

One day I will change it to something horrendous to make it look like you agree! HA!


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Absolutely this!
> 
> Don't like pride events, don't go, it's not like they hold them in peoples' living rooms


Oh I don´t go when invited, I don´t know how it is in USA or UK but here in Spain, some dress as priest or nuns and behave in ways I find insultive. I won´t be a part of that. I don´t have to agree with someone´s way of life or see things the way everyone does but treating someone with disrespect because of it is just not aceptable be the person gay, straight or anything. Yet there is still a lot of racism, the difference is that now it is not well seen to come out and say "I won´t give you a job because you are black or I won´t date you because you are black" but a lot of people do it anyway. The good thing is that a lot more no longer see it as the way it is and nothing can change it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

merlin12 said:


> Oh I don´t go when invited, I don´t know how it is in USA or UK but here in Spain, some dress as priest or nuns and behave in ways I find insultive. I won´t be a part of that. I don´t have to agree with someone´s way of life or see things the way everyone does but treating someone with disrespect because of it is just not aceptable be the person gay, straight or anything. Yet there is still a lot of racism, the difference is that now it is not well seen to come out and say "I won´t give you a job because you are black or I won´t date you because you are black" but a lot of people do it anyway. The good thing is that a lot more no longer see it as the way it is and nothing can change it.


That sounds rough 
If people behaved like that openly here, it would not go down well with the majority


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## merlin12 (Jun 24, 2011)

rona said:


> That sounds rough
> If people behaved like that openly here, it would not go down well with the majority


Not everyone does it of course, some people go to the gay parade to have fun but some enjoy being provocative and I can´t feel good being part of that because I have been around priest and nuns all my life and they have been those who work for others, so I feel if they are asking for respect then they should give it too.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

merlin12 said:


> Oh I don´t go when invited, I don´t know how it is in USA or UK but here in Spain, *some dress as priest or nuns and behave in ways I find insultive.* I won´t be a part of that. I don´t have to agree with someone´s way of life or see things the way everyone does but treating someone with disrespect because of it is just not aceptable be the person gay, straight or anything. Yet there is still a lot of racism, the difference is that now it is not well seen to come out and say "I won´t give you a job because you are black or I won´t date you because you are black" but a lot of people do it anyway. The good thing is that a lot more no longer see it as the way it is and nothing can change it.


I can totally see why that could be seen as offensive TBH!

There's always a few who take things too far in all walks of life


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *But unless someone has lived, or experienced living in a society where something goes totally against the grain and the law, how can anyone really know what it's like?
> It's like telling someone that has lost a loved one, you know how they feel, but if you have never been there you don't.*


This is just my opinion, my feelings on the matter, but this attitude of "you don't know what it's like" is just another way of creating divisiveness and this sense of "other" instead of unity and finding common ground.

To tell me "you weren't in England during rationing so you just don't *know*" is a conversation ender. It doesn't invite further dialogue or an attempt to get to know me, my experiences and where some commonalities may lie. No, I was not in England during the war, but I have had a lot of life experience including living in places where common things are simply not available. But unless you're actually looking for a dialogue with me, you would never know that, because instead the comment of "you weren't there, you just don't *know*" dismisses me and my experiences.

We are ALL human, we all have experiences in love and loss and I feel we should seek to find unity in those experiences instead of focusing on our experiences as a way of making us so different than everyone else that they couldn't possibly understand what it's like.

This gal is amazing and she explains what I'm trying to say way better than I could:
[youtube_browser]kSR4xuU07sc[/youtube_browser]


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Oh look, I got a red rep....what a surprise (for having a point of view or opinion)

Not sure what it meant though



> "katGirlDo" *personal, bigoted opinion states as fact*


Whereas what i SAID was they can do as they wish, 2m or 2F or any combination thereof, just that the MAJORITY of folk aint interested


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

People can believe whatever they want, it's when they try and force it on others I object. Whether that's all gays are going to burn in hell or everyone should accept it.

As for religion being the root of all evil Stalin and Mao were athiests right? The whole religion is the opium of the people thing. Look at the devastation they caused.

I never got the whole coming out thing you don't get teenagers saying "mum dad please sit down I've got something to tell you that may change your whole opinion of me. I'm *huge sigh* straight I know I know it's such a shock." What consenting adults do to each other or what gender they do it with shouldn't be a big deal.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> Oh look, I got a red rep....what a surprise (for having a point of view or opinion)
> 
> Not sure what it meant though
> 
> Whereas what i SAID was they can do as they wish, 2m or 2F or any combination thereof, just that the MAJORITY of folk aint interested


To be honest CB I ain't interested what any two (or more) consenting adults do in their own place either. Don't bother me in the slightest Hun,


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Ok now listen up

There will always be homophobic people just as regardless of how civilised we become there will always be those that don't like black/Pakistanis/Chinese/Japanese or even those with sky blue pink with yellow dots on skin colour. 

There will always be those that dislike swingers, those that indulge in other sexual practises. News Flash time, it's part of who we are, yes break throughs have been made and are to be made on all sides and on all points.

The best way to make straights more accepting of gays is to be themselves. Jumping up and down yelling to the world "yeay look at me I'm gay woohoo ain't I wonderful" seriously ain't doing anyone any good, it gets some peoples backs up and others it just makes em think/say "and" does it make you special, does it make you a better person, no it just means that the world has evolved a little bit to make you relationships legal, to be honest welcome to the straight world of divorce etc. 

Now before anyone wishes to have a say that I am homophobic, well listen I ain't. I have worked with gays, have had friends that are gay been to gay clubs (best night out ever as I had no hassle) I have no issue with anyone's sexuality.

Yes I dislike overt show of affection in public, that's nothing to to with the dislike of gays, I feel the same if I see straight people tickling each other's tonsils.

Why is this a problem?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I think the UK is maybe one of the LEAST homophobic area (maybe after many parts of the USA), these people who moan about the attitudes here should pop over to Iran/Iraq/Saudi/UAE, etc and check them out


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Agreed people are entitled to think what they like but there is a difference between the phobisms (racism, sexism, homophobia, etc) and every other opinion. 

Yes we have the right to our opinions and beliefs. But with every RIGHT comes a RESPONSIBILITY which simply put is the responsibility to respect and uphold the rights of others. A phobism hiding under the banner of the right to free speech forgets that the person on the receiving end of the phobism also has rights. 

So anyone has the right to think homosexuality is wrong but not to take away another person's right to be homosexual or any of their human rights because they are homosexual.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> When all's said and done it's nobody's business who you take to bed. Hence the whole 'coming out' thing annoys me, because there should be no need to make any great announcement about your preferences that concern nobody else. I wish it could be "Hi Mum&Dad/best-friend/hotel-receptionist, this is George/Josephine/Ahmed/Giovanni/Tatamungo and we love each other".
> 
> For the record I take a teddy bear and two cats to bed.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the flippancy - I couldn't resist. Nice post, though. :thumbup1:


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

The problem I have with some (and I say some) homophobic people is when they say why they take a disliking to gay people and the same could easily apply to straight people but they don't seem to have a problem with that. Sorry, but that does seem like nothing but a strong dislike for no reason.

It's like a lot of people in my town don't like the polish and they say it's because they're rude, yet I encounter more rude English people in my town than Polish people and it works both ways. But it doesn't seem to apply for the Herefordians. That to me is completely unfair and I see that as just using an excuse to give crap to the Polish

So it's a bit like that when it comes to gay people for me. Disliking gay people because they apparently flaunt their sexuality is a rubbish reason. Straight people do too and even then not all gay people say 'Hey over here, must really tell you I am gay'

So disliking all gay people because SOME flaunt their sexuality is unfair.

Just an example.

If someone doesn't agree with being gay because of, say, religion, etc, that is their belief but if they were then to proceed to treat gay people differently to straight people I then think it's unfair because we should be all equal.

Are we not?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> I would say religeon is at the foot of a lot of distrust/dislike





grumpy goby said:


> I would agree !


I agree to a degree - I think that the people who use religion to justify their prejudices would find another reason to be the way they are even if all religions were wiped out tomorrow. It's very easy to find "reasons" to hate, unfortunately.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> Agreed people are entitled to think what they like but there is a difference between the phobisms (racism, sexism, homophobia, etc) and every other opinion.
> 
> Yes we have the right to our opinions and beliefs. But with every RIGHT comes a RESPONSIBILITY which simply put is the responsibility to respect and uphold the rights of others. A phobism hiding under the banner of the right to free speech forgets that the person on the receiving end of the phobism also has rights.
> 
> So anyone has the right to think homosexuality is wrong but not to take away another person's right to be homosexual or any of their human rights because they are homosexual.


On my crap phone at the moment and I mean really crap so can barely write a comment but this is another good comment. I completely agree. With opinions comes responsibility. We all may not like something but we should still respect.

Thank you FH.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> So anyone has the right to think homosexuality is wrong but not to take away another person's right to be homosexual or any of their human rights because they are homosexual.


Who is taking these rights away?

Agreed there are still places in the world where people are still punished for their way of life, but the vast majority of the western world is accepting it. Cricky there is more and more legislation being made in order for this to happen. BUT remember the old saying of "Rome wasn't built in a day" it was only in 1967 that gay people were free from prosecution, I was 5. Attitudes are changing, sorry if it's not fast enough, the younger generations are more accepting than mine and mine are more accepting than the previous and so it continues. But forcing people to accept what, to them, is wrong is not doing ANYONE any favours and in part could even provide setbacks.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

bird said:


> Well we all know its a fear of, fear of something that some people cannot understand in any way shape or form or want to. Men mostly, especially went its men with men, the very idea of what they do with each other sends shivers down a lot of hetro males spines. Therefore the is fear of it. Men are not afraid of lesbians as they find that idea intriguing (quell surprise)
> 
> I don't see the reason for gay pride marches/carnivals etc, but then I would poo poo the idea of a hetro pride march too. Although having decades of having to hide I can understand the reason behind the yoohoo look at me and you can't touch me mentality.
> 
> ...


*
*

Same here! And it isn't even realistic a lot of the time. I think many young people are going to be sorely disappointed with the entire shenanigan.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> just pork?......


trichonosis

and no, not just pork - shellfish, rabbit, horse, eels, raptors, lizards and a host more. I don't know what all of the reasons were.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

lostbear said:


> trichonosis
> 
> and no, not just pork - shellfish, rabbit, horse, eels, raptors, lizards and a host more. I don't know what all of the reasons were.


everything we eat/drink has been labelled dangerous in the last ten years, red meat, white meat, usually its the cooking that causes the problem

rare sir?................with bacteria then?

A good vet would this back on its feet


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I personally couldn't care less whether someone is gay, straight, bi, transgender or whatever. I don't see how it affects me in any way. No, I don't want to see it "flaunted" in big, sexual displays in public but that goes for heterosexual relationships too. Holding hands, hugging, a kiss etc fine. But I don't need to see anyone with hands down anyone elses pants regardless of gender. 

One of my best friends in school was bullied for being gay. I had people try to bully me for being friends with him. I really, really don't understand the hatred :frown2: And some of the comparisons I've seen and heard made are utterly ridiculous imo.


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## Bloodraine5252 (Jan 13, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> rare sir?................with bacteria then?
> 
> A good vet would this back on its feet


That looks beautiful! I have always eaten my steak blue/rare and have never become ill. As long as its cooked on the outside its fine.

My gay friend and I were talking about pride marches the other day. He hates them, thinks its too showy and he thinks it seems more like an attention grabbing thing than anything else.

His other point is instead of gay marriage, it should just be called marriage, that way less people would be up in arms about it.

I don't like public displays of affection regardless of whose doing it. My dad is of the era of "its just not normal" and said if I or any of my brothers were gay he'd be severely disappointed in us.

To me, a person is a person, is a person. As long as they are not harming anyone/thing then I don't see the problem with anything.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I still dont relax, if i want to go through it

:aureola:


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

bird said:


> Who is taking these rights away?
> 
> Agreed there are still places in the world where people are still punished for their way of life, but the vast majority of the western world is accepting it. Cricky there is more and more legislation being made in order for this to happen. BUT remember the old saying of "Rome wasn't built in a day" it was only in 1967 that gay people were free from prosecution, I was 5. Attitudes are changing, sorry if it's not fast enough, the younger generations are more accepting than mine and mine are more accepting than the previous and so it continues. But forcing people to accept what, to them, is wrong is not doing ANYONE any favours and in part could even provide setbacks.


Take a look:

LGBT Activist Arrested for Waving Rainbow Flag at Sochi Olympic Torch Relay | I Acknowledge

Bluewater profits from 'hoodies' ban - Telegraph

Doctors back denial of treatment for smokers and the obese | Society | The Observer
(on this one I should add that smoking related disease costs the NHS £5 billion a year while the revenue from tax on tobacco nets the government £12 billion income)

Tory Government Will Deny Benefits To Under-25s, Cameron Pledges
(that has now been extended to under 35s)


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> Take a look:
> 
> LGBT Activist Arrested for Waving Rainbow Flag at Sochi Olympic Torch Relay | I Acknowledge
> 
> ...


Err....and whilst interesting reading, I thought we were dicussing Homophobia


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> everything we eat/drink has been labelled dangerous in the last ten years, red meat, white meat, usually its the cooking that causes the problem
> 
> rare sir?................with bacteria then?
> 
> A good vet would this back on its feet


That looks yummy!

Remember 30 years ago chicken pox parties? Oh that's all changed now!


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> That looks yummy!
> 
> Remember 30 years ago chicken pox parties? Oh that's all changed now!


no, we must move in different circles


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

bird said:


> Err....and whilst interesting reading, I thought we were dicussing Homophobia


Be fair guv I'm not the first person to have digressed! I was trying to illustrate the point that our rights are being eroded left "right" and centre.


----------



## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> That looks yummy!
> 
> Remember 30 years ago chicken pox parties? Oh that's all changed now!


Erm nope, i was brought up back in the day when childhood illnesses were known to possibly cause damage long term, I remember having to sit in a darkened room when I had measles as light could cause damage to your eyes and getting spanked when I slipped out the door to be helpful and bring the milk in. 



ForeverHome said:


> Be fair guv I'm not the first person to have digressed! I was trying to illustrate the point that our rights are being eroded left "right" and centre.


Shall let ya off then.


----------



## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> I still dont relax, if i want to go through it
> 
> :aureola:


I'll ask then, what does that mean


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

DoodlesRule said:


> I'll ask then, what does that mean


Unless I'm very much mistaken that's going to be a reference to the song Relax by Frankie Goes to Hollywood which was banned by the Beeb and came back to haunt them when it hit no1 and they couldn't play it. I think both the lads were gay if I remember right but their image was "undercover gay" when a lot of strays didn't understand the symbolism in things they wore, said and sang. Where are we, mid 80s? Funny how things have changed even in my young lifetime.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> Unless I'm very much mistaken that's going to be a reference to the song Relax by Frankie Goes to Hollywood which was banned by the Beeb and came back to haunt them when it hit no1 and they couldn't play it. I think both the lads were gay if I remember right but their image was "undercover gay" when a lot of strays didn't understand the symbolism in things they wore, said and sang. Where are we, mid 80s? Funny how things have changed even in my young lifetime.


Oh I see, understand now 

"Strays" lol is that a new term for non gay peops :laugh:


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

DoodlesRule said:


> Oh I see, understand now
> 
> "Strays" lol is that a new term for non gay peops :laugh:


Sorry a gay friend of mine said he & his friends used the term to describe a straight person in a gay pub or club. Incorrect use but I do like it. Sounds a bit more fun than straight lol


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> Remember 30 years ago chicken pox parties? Oh that's all changed now!


I do, all the mothers at my junior school tried to make sure their child got chicken pox to hopefully prevent them from getting shingles later.
I remember when myself and my sisters were all down with it, one of our boy cousins was bought around in the hope he'd get it


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> Be fair guv I'm not the first person to have digressed! I was trying to illustrate the point that our rights are being eroded left "right" and centre.


"rights are not for the silent majority just the vocal minority"

(Herman Von Kepshung 1897)


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> I'll ask then, what does that mean


In my innocence I quite liked it......and YMCA

should i worry?

Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Relax (Don&#39;t Do It) - YouTube


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> In my innocence I quite liked it......and YMCA
> 
> should i worry?
> 
> Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Relax (Don't Do It) - YouTube


I like it too and it became a martyr for the stupidity of censorship. Worry? I would make a mock phobic comment but I feel this forum is more respectable than that.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> I like it too and it became a martyr for the stupidity of censorship. Worry? I would make a mock phobic comment but I feel this forum is more respectable than that.


oh god, lets not get serious FFS


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Colliebarmy said:


> oh god, lets not get serious FFS


This is why I didn't post a mock phobic comment, because it's impossible to get across a playful bantery reply without someone thinking it is serious.

Anyway it's past my bedtime and my teddy is getting impatient. Night all!


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

JANICE199 said:


> *I don't know if anyone has seen this film, but it is an eye opener for anyone anti gay. It is a true story. Very sad. It's only 2 mins long.
> 
> Prayers for Bobby Trailer - YouTube*


Have you ever watched Philadelphia starring Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington?

It's such a wonderful film and truly highlights the prejudice, homophobia, and discrimination with gay people and sexuality. It was also the first film to highlight HIV/Aids and homosexuality. Very upsetting but a wonderful gem.


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> Have you ever watched Philadelphia starring Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington?
> 
> It's such a wonderful film and truly highlights the prejudice, homophobia, and discrimination with gay people and sexuality. It was also the first film to highlight HIV/Aids and homosexuality. Very upsetting but a wonderful gem.


I love this movie.


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Yeah, it's probably one of my favourite movies too.

Very upsetting but it does raise those issues that we as a society face on a day to day basis (Thus the prejudice and discrimination) and I think it teaches you a lot too. An educating movie for sure.


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Blackcats said:


> Have you ever watched Philadelphia starring Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington?
> 
> It's such a wonderful film and truly highlights the prejudice, homophobia, and discrimination with gay people and sexuality. It was also the first film to highlight HIV/Aids and homosexuality. Very upsetting but a wonderful gem.


Subtle message from Denzel Washington's character, being normally on the receiving end of prejudice the way he reacts to Tom Hanks' character at first is all the more poignant.


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> Subtle message from Denzel Washington's character, being normally on the receiving end of prejudice the way he reacts to Tom Hanks' character at first is all the more poignant.


And despite the fact he doesn't like gay people he still knows a law has been broken and defends him. Now that is right to me. Have your opinion but still treat gay people equal. I think that was a strong message that came across in that movie.

I love too that through understanding of gay people and actually getting to know a gay person he too understood it more and accepts that sexuality then.

It just simply is that movie that pulls strings at your heart. Very powerful and moving.


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Denzel's one of those actors who takes interesting roles - Cry Freedom, Crimson Tide, The Hurricane ...


----------



## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

ouesi said:


> This is just my opinion, my feelings on the matter, but this attitude of "you don't know what it's like" is just another way of creating divisiveness and this sense of "other" instead of unity and finding common ground.
> 
> To tell me "you weren't in England during rationing so you just don't *know*" is a conversation ender. It doesn't invite further dialogue or an attempt to get to know me, my experiences and where some commonalities may lie. No, I was not in England during the war, but I have had a lot of life experience including living in places where common things are simply not available. But unless you're actually looking for a dialogue with me, you would never know that, because instead the comment of "you weren't there, you just don't *know*" dismisses me and my experiences.
> 
> ...


Tried to rep you again but need to spread it around



bird said:


> Ok now listen up
> 
> There will always be homophobic people just as regardless of how civilised we become there will always be those that don't like black/Pakistanis/Chinese/Japanese or even those with sky blue pink with yellow dots on skin colour.
> 
> ...


But that's them being them :lol: :shocked:



Bloodraine5252 said:


> That looks beautiful! I have always eaten my steak blue/rare and have never become ill. As long as its cooked on the outside its fine.
> 
> My gay friend and I were talking about pride marches the other day. He hates them, thinks its too showy and he thinks it seems more like an attention grabbing thing than anything else.
> 
> ...


Yet you're the one who goes on about pole dancing?

I love how people can make anything THEY enjoy fit into anything.

That's not a knock at you; everyone does it, me too, but it just makes me smile.



Colliebarmy said:


> In my innocence I quite liked it......and YMCA
> 
> should i worry?


'In my innocence' :lol:

Nope, sorry.

Once you listen to it 4 times or say YMCA whilst looking in a mirror you get automatically put on a system that at some point (probably when you least expect it) you will be called in for mandatory sex change and then be injected with 'gay' - explain that in a lonely hearts column in under 40 words.

You should worry :nonod: You were doomed the first time you heard it :nonod:


----------



## muffin789 (Jan 28, 2013)

Can I just ask what relevance pole dancing (or talking about doing it) has in this context, please??? Not sure if I've missed something!!!

I took pole dancing classes for the best part of 5 years, purely for fitness, and believe me it is one of the best workouts you can have! It does not have to be about sexuality or an expression of sexualness. Most pole dance classes focus on it being a fun and tough form of exercise. I used to come home from class twice a week absolutely covered in bruises but happy as larry!!! And never once, when I talked to friends or colleagues about it, was there any sense that I was talking about anything any different from going to the gym and doing a workout.

If someone chooses to say they are taking a pole dancing class, and the person on the receiving end of that statement (whether read or heard) chooses to interpret it in a particular way, (ie that it is something seedy, to be looked down on) that says more to me about the person interpreting the statement as opposed to the one making it.

Check out Art of dance Sam exhibiting at the Women&#39;s Institute. - YouTube to see just how hard pole can be. The girl in this video is my old trainer; she's awesome, and I have a huge amount of respect for her.


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## Bloodraine5252 (Jan 13, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> Yet you're the one who goes on about pole dancing?
> 
> I love how people can make anything THEY enjoy fit into anything.
> 
> That's not a knock at you; everyone does it, me too, but it just makes me smile


I really don't know what you mean by that comment? As far as I'm aware I'm not harming anyone, I'm not doing anything seedy or degrading, I work really hard to become stronger and better and it gives Me motivation and makes me feel better about myself...I really don't get where your going with that at all and what it has to do with acceptance of people/homophobia (except my instructor is my gay friend...)


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Bloodraine5252 said:


> I really don't know what you mean by that comment? As far as I'm aware I'm not harming anyone, I'm not doing anything seedy or degrading, I work really hard to become stronger and better and it gives Me motivation and makes me feel better about myself...I really don't get where your going with that at all and what it has to do with acceptance of people/homophobia (except my instructor is my gay friend...)


Because you made it out that you were strictly brought up



Bloodraine5252 said:


> My gay friend and I were talking about pride marches the other day. He hates them, thinks its too showy and he thinks it seems more like an attention grabbing thing than anything else.
> 
> His other point is instead of gay marriage, it should just be called marriage, that way less people would be up in arms about it.
> *
> ...


And I'm sorry; but I pole danced as a summer job to pay my way through uni and you can cover and call it any shade and whilst it IS an excellent way of toning muscular groups it's originalities were far from that.

Personally I loved it for the fact I could express my sexual self; I've very much like that; as I said, was brought up traditionally gothic and see no problem with admitting what I am, why I am, why I'm doing what I'm doing (once I work it out :lol: ) and how and what for.

Pole dancing, to a family as you made yours out to be, would be way out of the ball park.

I mean, if you go back to the point I quoted in bold; where EXACTLY do you think pole dancing etc originated?

And I hope you're another one that can keep on track with one thread and differentiate between threads as I have a lot of respect for you and wouldn't like to loose contact xx


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DoodlesRule said:


> I'll ask then, what does that mean


Thank you - I was dying to ask - thought I'd missed a page of posts.


----------



## donna160 (Nov 1, 2013)

merlin12 said:


> But above all, coming back to this topic, it is definitely not right to treat anyone less because they live their lives different from how we do .


How do homosexuals live their life any differently to heterosexuals?..as far as i'm aware they go to work, go shopping,clean, cook, shower, watch coronation street with a glass of wine and all the other mundane everyday things just as anybody else does.



merlin12 said:


> I find the gay parade too provocative and it removes seriousness from those people who want to be part and parcel of society and not seen differently.


Obviously each gay parade in each town is different to a degree but the one in my city is not all about people flaunting their sexuality, (yea some do both gay,bi and straight) but about fun and most importantly education, and a way of saying were not harmful join in! Whenever iv'e been there's always been educational stalls promoting awareness, stalls promoting HIV and other charities, believe me there are almost more stalls than people!
The best stall ever though is the one where adolescents who are struggling with their own anxieties and not knowing who to talk to, could go to and are given some much needed advice and support.

I noticed a comment earlier , i can't remember who by sorry; it went along the lines of there's no need for a teenager doing the coming out the 'iv'e got something to tell you mum and dad i'm gay'
Well if they don't have that conversation ..which is bloody hard btw.. then there's a 99% chance those teenagers parents are going to spend the rest of there lives wondering why their kids never got married had kids etc, personally i think there's a need for that conversation.

I agree you don't have to have a 'mum dad i'm straight' conversation but that's because it's taken for granted!

Sorry for the ramble, just my experience of things.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

donna160 said:


> I noticed a comment earlier , i can't remember who by sorry; it went along the lines of there's no need for a teenager doing the coming out the 'iv'e got something to tell you mum and dad i'm gay'
> Well if they don't have that conversation ..which is bloody hard btw.. then there's a 99% chance those teenagers parents are going to spend the rest of there lives wondering why their kids never got married had kids etc, personally i think there's a need for that conversation.
> 
> I agree you don't have to have a 'mum dad i'm straight' conversation but that's because it's taken for granted!
> ...


That wasn't my comment but I did say something similar. And that is exactly what I meant, that who you choose to take to bed is none of anyone's business, not even your parents', and that I would love to see us as a society come to the point where a teenager could come home and say "Mum, Dad, this is the person I love" and that the parents could say "Come and look at all the embarrassing baby photos and join us for dinner" regardless of colour, race, religion or sexual orientation. That's how that conversation should go, because your child is your child who he loves should never, never change that.

Rant over, sorry


----------



## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

ForeverHome said:


> That wasn't my comment but I did say something similar. And that is exactly what I meant, that who you choose to take to bed is none of anyone's business, not even your parents', and that I would love to see us as a society come to the point where a teenager could come home and say "Mum, Dad, this is the person I love" and that the parents could say "Come and look at all the embarrassing baby photos and join us for dinner" regardless of colour, religion or sexual orientation. That's how that conversation should go, because your child is your child who he loves should never, never change that.
> 
> Rant over, sorry


Thank god that that is the one thing I've always had; and not just because I'm that way mentally inclined; I just dread to think of how I could have been if not for my mental upbringing.

Aye; mentally and physically I'm ruined and the two are inter-entwined, however I know what I have to truly fall back on is an open mind both towards myself and others and thank eff* for that.

Will explain about my beliefs in eff and all he holds dear when the next thread about religion pops up


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> That wasn't my comment but I did say something similar. And that is exactly what I meant, that who you choose to take to bed is none of anyone's business, not even your parents', and that I would love to see us as a society come to the point where a teenager could come home and say "Mum, Dad, this is the person I love" and that the parents could say "Come and look at all the embarrassing baby photos and join us for dinner" regardless of colour, race, religion or sexual orientation. That's how that conversation should go, because your child is your child who he loves should never, never change that.
> 
> Rant over, sorry


That should be how it is. Mum, dad this is my girlfriend/boyfriend and be treated the same as any other partner. Right down to the embarrassing photos


----------



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

muffin789 said:


> <snip> It does not have to be about sexuality or an expression of sexualness.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Check out Art of dance Sam exhibiting at the Women's Institute. - YouTube to see just how hard pole can be. The girl in this video is my old trainer; she's awesome, and I have a huge amount of respect for her.


If she had on a pair of leggings and a vest top, I imagine more people would be focused on the actual workout.

Every one who does pole dancing as an exercise is most affronted about the comments they may get (in jest I would imagine, if from friends, if from strangers why care anyway?)

But every pole dancing video I have seen people post, to show what a great workout it is, features the dancer half naked, usually in hotpants or knickers, and a bra or a crop top - doesn't do much for your argument about it not being sexual really.

I dont see people in the gym or at aerobics classes dressed like that - so why dress differently for pole dancing?

Anyway - I digress!

Jakes dad told me that if Jake 'turned out gay' he would disown him - I told him that I hoped he was gay in that case!

Jake is a hairdresser, but he's not gay - it makes me giggle to think of what his dads face was like when he told him he wanted to be hairdresser though :lol: (stereotypes, I know - I'm always getting asked if Jake is gay when people find out he is a hairdresser  )

A lot of his friends are gay, and his best friend cant openly admot to his family that he is gay, as they would all disown him - they all 'know', it would be hard _not_ to know - but he has to pretend, and they all play the game so he can keep his family - that is so so sad to me. They are making him live a lie, and they are all living a lie as well, so they dont lose him, and he doesnt lose them - but why - its beyond my comprehension


----------



## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> That should be how it is. Mum, dad this is my girlfriend/boyfriend and be treated the same as any other partner. Right down to the embarrassing photos


All your photos are embarrassing; you look so awkward unless someone catches you unaware that it wouldn't matter if you were putting shoes on or dogging (I can use that - it's a petforum, right?  personally find it far less offensive than other things I've read but if not then edit the post mods xx)



MCWillow said:


> If she had on a pair of leggings and a vest top, I imagine more people would be focused on the actual workout.
> 
> Every one who does pole dancing as an exercise is most affronted about the comments they may get (in jest I would imagine, if from friends, if from strangers why care anyway?)
> 
> ...


Er upstairs again (she lives with Firedog in my ivory tower so it's fine)

Just to add I am racist - I would prefer my tower to be pink and, if possible, covered with fluff; yes, yes; I'm a fluffistsismisterer so strike me down :frown2:


----------



## donna160 (Nov 1, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> That wasn't my comment but I did say something similar. And that is exactly what I meant, that who you choose to take to bed is none of anyone's business, not even your parents', and that I would love to see us as a society come to the point where a teenager could come home and say "Mum, Dad, this is the person I love" and that the parents could say "Come and look at all the embarrassing baby photos and join us for dinner" regardless of colour, race, religion or sexual orientation. That's how that conversation should go, because your child is your child who he loves should never, never change that.
> 
> Rant over, sorry


I agree, but unfortunately life at this time isn't like that so those conversations do have to take place.
Imagine if 14 yr old Callum had never had that conversation brought home 14 yr old Ben hand in hand and say hey mum,dad this is my new boyfriend..even if the parents were not homophobic there'd still be a bit more discomfort than if the 'iv'e got something to tell you,i'm gay' conversation had taken place.

As an aside (this is NOT aimed at anybody, this thread just reminded me) there's two sentences i really detest.

I'm not racist..............but 

I have nothing against gays.........but


----------



## katGirlDo (Nov 8, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> Oh look, I got a red rep....what a surprise (for having a point of view or opinion)


Get over your self - You can state your opinion - you got red rep for stating your opinion as a fact.
I wanted to give you red rep a few weeks ago because of a racist post but I didnt know how.


----------



## Bloodraine5252 (Jan 13, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> Because you made it out that you were strictly brought up
> 
> And I'm sorry; but I pole danced as a summer job to pay my way through uni and you can cover and call it any shade and whilst it IS an excellent way of toning muscular groups it's originalities were far from that.
> 
> ...


Just want to say that I really wasn't strictly brought up. That's just my dads views. Hes also a racist too. No matter what I say he won't change his mind. But I really didn't have as strict an upbringing as I probably should have lol 

Whenever I talk about class dad kinda ignores it but I have worked hard at showing its not all grinds! I had a pole in my spare bedroom and did some strength moves and he was really impressed. I think as long as I don't get paid for it hes happy!

Also I dance in a class with 5-10 girls depending in what days I go. Its miles different from dancing at a club but if I had the confidence I would do it. One of the girls that comes to class is a stripper and right now the club she is in has a pole. She is so so happy 

Oh and yes, I'm not going to take it to heart 



MCWillow said:


> If she had on a pair of leggings and a vest top, I imagine more people would be focused on the actual workout.
> 
> I dont see people in the gym or at aerobics classes dressed like that - so why dress differently for pole dancing?


If she wore a pair of leggings and a vest top she would fall and probably injure herself. There's a reason tiny shorts are needed and in higher levels, a crop top. The only reason you stick to the pole is through contact with the skin if you wear clothes you won't be able to do much.


----------



## muffin789 (Jan 28, 2013)

bloodraine5252 said:


> if she wore a pair of leggings and a vest top she would fall and probably injure herself. There's a reason tiny shorts are needed and in higher levels, a crop top. The only reason you stick to the pole is through contact with the skin if you wear clothes you won't be able to do much.


exactly!!!!


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> And why?
> 
> I'm told it's the same as Racism, you're brought up like it and somewhat brainwashed to have a negative attitude towards homosexuality and people from a different ethnic background.
> 
> ...


I certainly can't agree that people are brought up to be racist or homophobic. It may be what they grew up with, like me. We didn't see many black people in my part of London back in the fifties, but I well remember my mother telling me that we must never, ever go into a black man's house. I never knew why and I doubt she did; perhaps she thought they were all cannibals like the cartoon strips in the newspapers. Then I saw the film To sir with Love and noticed that it was mentioned in that as well.

The fact is my parents believed they were superior to other races because they were white; it did not make me grow up to think the same. In fact, for all that, I remember being horrified when a friend of mine slammed the door in the face of a black Jehovah's Witness who knocked at her door, because she was black. I was about 15 then and I gradually extracted myself from that friendship but for the first time I think I stopped to think about it.

As to homophobia, male homosexuality was illegal when I was growing up. Until 1967 when it was legalised, I don't think I knew it existed at all. It is up to individuals to use their own brains and make up their own minds how they feel about things.

On an objective level, I can understand homophobia far better than I understand racism. That doesn't mean I am phobic myself, just that I never did understand racism in any shape or form. I find it rather pathetic and if it had not caused so much damage throughout history, I would find it laughable.


----------



## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> Because you made it out that you were strictly brought up
> 
> And I'm sorry; but I pole danced as a summer job to pay my way through uni and you can cover and call it any shade and whilst it IS an excellent way of toning muscular groups it's originalities were far from that.
> 
> ...


I would love to learn Burlesque dancing. There was a programme on TV some years ago (one of those "Could you convince people in the industry that this waas really your job" things), and there was a girl - 30-ish, nothing startling to look at, but not awful either, who was so embarrassed about her body (flat chew, thick waist, no bum) that she never even let her husband see her naked - ever in all the time they'd been married.

They decided to see if she could mug her way through as a burlesque dancer, so she was sent to burlesque school and had to learn the moves and wear the teeny tiny outfits that the ladies strip down to - and my word, WHAT a transformation. She started off being too shy to undress in front of the other women and didn't want the camera crew there, and finished up in g-string and nipple tassels coming third (I think it was) in a competition for professional burlesque dancers. Her confidence absolutely SOARED. Physically she didn't change shape, but she learned to love her own body and she was fab! Made a big difference in her marriage as well, as you can imagine.

I think a lot of us could do with that sort of love-yourself-for-what-you-are teaching.

(Sorry - way off thread, but the pole dancing debate caught me up )


----------



## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Newfiesmum, I agree with your post but your attitude touches me specially because of the background.

Majority or not I couldn't say but I certainly know a lot of people who have never questioned their parents' values as you did at a young age - respectfully, especially of your generation. You seem to take it as read that we have our own values but I don't think it's quite that simple and many people do carry their parents' attitudes unquestioned their whole life, summed up as "I vote x because my parents did". 

I think you take your strength, intelligence and compassion for granted. Sadly I agree with Blackcats that not everyone has the same.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> Newfiesmum, I agree with your post but your attitude touches me specially because of the background.
> 
> Majority or not I couldn't say but I certainly know a lot of people who have never questioned their parents' values as you did at a young age - respectfully, especially of your generation. You seem to take it as read that we have our own values but I don't think it's quite that simple and many people do carry their parents' attitudes unquestioned their whole life, summed up as "I vote x because my parents did".
> 
> I think you take your strength, intelligence and compassion for granted. Sadly I agree with Blackcats that not everyone has the same.


I have to agree, actually, as my husband was just one of those people. Never had an idea in his head that didn't come from his bloody mother. But even he was not racist while his mother seemed to think it was going to rub off on the food. So, even for someone like that, there was a little bit of common sense seeping through. He was, however, a snob like his mother; thought he was somehow of a better class than other people. She even had the audacity to tell me that her husband was not as well bred as her. I laughed my head off! Especially when she said it was obvious. Sorry, I couldn't see it.

The incident I spoke of just stands out in my mind because I was horrified that anyone would slam the door in someone's face because they were a different colour to them. I know my parents would not have done that. They would have tried to make the person go away without causing offence, but with my 'friend' it was the sheer hatred that affected me so strongly. I think I realised then that born a few years earlier she would have been a Nazi.

My MIL went nuts when my daughter started seeing a Chinese boy when she was 13. What she didn't understand at all was that his parents were more against than she was; thought they had a nerve!

This is the sort of thing that makes me think racism is rather pathetic.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I've not read ll the posts but just wanted to add that I don't think attitude and opinions about homosexuality (or anything else for that matter) is entirely due to how you were brought up and in what era that was. Mostly, it depends upon you as a person - some people will accept the culture around them unquestioningly, and others will question it, challenge it, and decide for themselves what their beliefs are.

I am 59 in March and I was brought up in an era where homosexuality was actually illegal. That never seemed fair to me; but when I questioned it I was told repeatedly by my parents that I was too young to understand why it was just wrong. Did that make me homophobic? Hell no! Even then I was not the type of person who would accept things on face value - I read enough to realise that my parents were wrong (no internet then, just libraries  ) and was old enought to welcome the change in law when it came.

I can accept that some people are uncomfortable with this subject, but I cannot understand _why_ they feel uncomfortable, so I am going to catch up with the rest of the posts in this thread to see if anyone can shed a light on that. For me, someone's sexual orientation is irrelevant (unless I am looking for a new partner  ) - my opinion of someone is not formed by who they choose as a sexual partner but by their personality.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I've not read ll the posts but just wanted to add that I don't think attitude and opinions about homosexuality (or anything else for that matter) is entirely due to how you were brought up and in what era that was. Mostly, it depends upon you as a person - some people will accept the culture around them unquestioningly, and others will question it, challenge it, and decide for themselves what their beliefs are.
> 
> I am 59 in March and I was brought up in an era where homosexuality was actually illegal. That never seemed fair to me; but when I questioned it I was told repeatedly by my parents that I was too young to understand why it was just wrong. Did that make me homophobic? Hell no! Even then I was not the type of person who would accept things on face value - I read enough to realise that my parents were wrong (no internet then, just libraries  ) and was old enought to welcome the change in law when it came.
> 
> *I can accept that some people are uncomfortable with this subject, but I cannot understand why they feel uncomfortable*, so I am going to catch up with the rest of the posts in this thread to see if anyone can shed a light on that. For me, someone's sexual orientation is irrelevant (unless I am looking for a new partner  ) - my opinion of someone is not formed by who they choose as a sexual partner but by their personality.


I don't know a lot of homosexuals but from what I have seen they seem to talk more about their private doings than a hetersexual person would. That is probably one of the reasons. I don't want to hear about anyone's sex life, thanks very much, straight or not.

My husband's cousin is homosexual and although I am very fond of him as a person, he does do things like invite my daughter out and say: Do you fancy an evening with a bunch of poofters? It doesn't bother her, but to me I think, why say it? You wouldn't ask a cousin or friend out and specifically tell them that all the others are straight, would you?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Just like to say a light hearted word on homosexuality being illegal, and the age of consent.

My first ex's brother is gay and the age of consent was brought down from 21 to 18 when he was between those ages. Of course we were all happy about this but he did have one regret - not having a coming of age birthday!

But back on the serious side, both his dad and aunt came out after having 2 children each. One of the two cousins is also gay. They are the gayest family I know!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> It could just be that it revolts some people, did you ever consider that?
> 
> plus I - personally - think the Gay Pride thing (advertising it loud and proud) has actually had an adverse effect on some people, being homosexual is nothing new but for centuries "they" had the sense and (dare I say it) decency to keep it private, just as many/most heterosexuals did by not advertising their own sexual preferences which, in the main, is of no interest to others....


Another ism/phobic to add to your growing collection :nonod::nonod:


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

ForeverHome said:


> Just like to say a light hearted word on homosexuality being illegal, and the age of consent.
> 
> My first ex's brother is gay and the age of consent was brought down from 21 to 18 when he was between those ages. Of course we were all happy about this but he did have one regret - not having a coming of age birthday!
> 
> *But back on the serious side, both his dad and aunt came out after having 2 children each. One of the two cousins is also gay. They are the gayest family I know*!


I know 3 sets of twins 
1 boy, 1 girl - both are Gay
2 girls (identical) - both are Gay
2 boys (non-identical) 1 is Gay

Something to think about, maybe


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## Barcode (Mar 7, 2011)

A great deal of ignorance, coupled with an inability to _think_.

What is more interesting?

(i) Me, my wife, two dogs, living in suburbia, going about our daily lives,

Or,

(ii) A colourful Pride march in which extremes are deliberately represented in the media?

Then, of course, someone unable to think will assume (ii) is 'flaunting it', or 'pushing it in my face', and think, because they do not understand fallacies of generalization, that most all gay people are like those depicted in (ii).

As for those who seem to have some sort of peculiar obsession with the issue (e.g., certain evangelical types), one wonders about the old adage of having something to conceal. They certainly seem to have a great deal more interest in gay people than I, as a gay person, do. Weird.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't know a lot of homosexuals but from what I have seen they seem to talk more about their private doings than a hetersexual person would. That is probably one of the reasons. I don't want to hear about anyone's sex life, thanks very much, straight or not.
> 
> My husband's cousin is homosexual and although I am very fond of him as a person, *he does do things like invite my daughter out and say: Do you fancy an evening with a bunch of poofters? * It doesn't bother her, but to me I think, why say it? You wouldn't ask a cousin or friend out and specifically tell them that all the others are straight, would you?


Could that be a sort of "this-is-what-I-am-take-it-or-leave-it" bravado? Or getting the comments in as a joke himself, to pre-empt what other people might say? I know that when I was ashamed of my flat chest etc, I always was the first one to joke about it - it was somehow a little less hurtful to have people laugh at my own comments than at someone else's. It's something that you learn to do early, then it becomes a habit that is hard to break even when it isn't necessary any more.

I think that with a lot of gay people it is also a way of emphasising that they aren't ashamed of being homosexual. I think that until homophobia is just a distant horror (in minds and hearts as well as law) it will continue - it's human nature to defend ourselves as best we can, even if that is by poking fun at ourselves.

However, I think that some individuals do cause problems for themselves. A few years ago Jim Davidson was on one of these big brother type things, and there was a very openly gay lad in the house/jungle/whatever, too. This lad took offence at EVERYTHING JD said or did, and to be fair, JD did his best to avoid causing offence. On one particular episode, JD mentioned something that someone on this forum (Newfiesmum, I think, but I may be wrong) has also pointed out - they the term "GAY" is an acronym from the initials of the words "Good As You". And he was saying it nicely, and in a very accepting and thoughtful kind of way - and this gay lad burst into tears, accused JD of picking on him (yet again!), and claiming that JD was saying that gays weren't as "good as you". (Which was complete BS). He had everybody giving him cuddles and drying his tears and listening sympathetically to his self-pitying rants, while poor JD (and I never thought I'd find myself feeling sorry for a foul-mouthed, misogynistic MCP like him!) was bawled and shouted at, and vilified by viewers and the newspapers for his supposedly homophobic comments. It was ridiculous. Some people, gay and straight, look for ways to take offence, but when they do, they do themselves and any causes they support, no good at all.

(Yes - I do watch a lot of TV. No - I never go out. WHat do you mean? This IS a life)


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

lostbear said:


> However, I think that some individuals do cause problems for themselves. A few years ago Jim Davidson was on one of these big brother type things, and there was a very openly gay lad in the house/jungle/whatever, too. This lad took offence at EVERYTHING JD said or did, and to be fair, JD did his best to avoid causing offence. On one particular episode, JD mentioned something that someone on this forum (Newfiesmum, I think, but I may be wrong) has also pointed out - they the term "GAY" is an acronym from the initials of the words "Good As You". And he was saying it nicely, and in a very accepting and thoughtful kind of way - and this gay lad burst into tears, accused JD of picking on him (yet again!), and claiming that JD was saying that gays weren't as "good as you". (Which was complete BS). He had everybody giving him cuddles and drying his tears and listening sympathetically to his self-pitying rants, while poor JD (and I never thought I'd find myself feeling sorry for a foul-mouthed, misogynistic MCP like him!) was bawled and shouted at, and vilified by viewers and the newspapers for his supposedly homophobic comments. It was ridiculous. Some people, gay and straight, look for ways to take offence, but when they do, they do themselves and any causes they support, no good at all.
> 
> (Yes - I do watch a lot of TV. No - I never go out. WHat do you mean? This IS a life)


I remember that as well. Damn shame no one had the sense to talk to the lad concerned and say "did you actually hear what JD said or just what you assume he said"


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> In my innocence I quite liked it......and YMCA
> 
> should i worry?
> 
> Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Relax (Don't Do It) - YouTube





ForeverHome said:


> I like it too and it became a martyr for the stupidity of censorship. Worry? I would make a mock phobic comment but I feel this forum is more respectable than that.


I believe I still have the original single somewhere or other


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

lostbear said:


> I know that when I was ashamed of my flat chest etc, I always was the first one to joke about it - it was somehow a little less hurtful to have people laugh at my own comments than at someone else's. It's something that you learn to do early, then it becomes a habit that is hard to break even when it isn't necessary any more.


Sorry sounds like I might have been given your share, which brings its own problems.

An old friend of mine used to say "All I ever wanted was a bust. I wouldn't have minded having eggs for a bust, if only they hadn't been fried!"


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Its just pure ignorance imo .......this does not just come from your background or era - as an adult you have the choice to question any pre concieved ideas you may have been fed .....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lostbear said:


> Could that be a sort of "this-is-what-I-am-take-it-or-leave-it" bravado? Or getting the comments in as a joke himself, to pre-empt what other people might say? I know that when I was ashamed of my flat chest etc, I always was the first one to joke about it - it was somehow a little less hurtful to have people laugh at my own comments than at someone else's. It's something that you learn to do early, then it becomes a habit that is hard to break even when it isn't necessary any more.
> 
> I think that with a lot of gay people it is also a way of emphasising that they aren't ashamed of being homosexual. I think that until homophobia is just a distant horror (in minds and hearts as well as law) it will continue - it's human nature to defend ourselves as best we can, even if that is by poking fun at ourselves.
> 
> ...


I know you are right about the cousin. In fact he announced on tv (he is a tv presenter) that he was gay so that his family wouldn't cover it up, cos that what they do with anything that is not quite right.

As to Jim Davidson, sore point. We had tickets one evening to see Freddie Starr, but cos he was ill, they put JD on instead. He took the pee seriously out of the mentally handicapped which upset my son no end, being as he and a lot of his friends are just that. Obviously not too daft to understand the so called jokes, even if that idiot thought they were.

I just seems to me that everything has got too out in the open nowadays. You see same sex couples walking along holding hands, hetro couples practically having sex up against lamposts, but if someone lights up a cigarette in public everyone shakes their head in disgust. Tell where that isn't a*se uppards?


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

suzy93074 said:


> Its just pure ignorance imo .......this does not just come from your background or era - as an adult you have the choice to question any pre concieved ideas you may have been fed .....


Yes but it's much more difficult for a person who has never been encouraged to think for themselves to do that. Not impossible, but a lot lot harder. My father is a case in point, he had a bizarre childhood and his "reaction" is to do exactly the opposite of everything his mother did, which means he is still just as tied by her madness as he would be if he did everything exactly the same. He is 65 this year and it's about time he grew up and started thinking for himself ...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't know a lot of homosexuals but from what I have seen they seem to talk more about their private doings than a hetersexual person would. That is probably one of the reasons. I don't want to hear about anyone's sex life, thanks very much, straight or not.


I haven't found this to be true personally. I know a lot of gay people and they've almost all been very private about the details of their sex life. Even the guys who are the "look at me, I'm gay!" sort haven't been the sort to tell all the sordid details. I do however know far more than I want to about the sex lives of a lot of straight men and women I don't even bloody know thanks to them discussing it loudly in public places.


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## Barcode (Mar 7, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I just seems to me that everything has got too out in the open nowadays. You see same sex couples walking along holding hands, hetro couples practically having sex up against lamposts, but if someone lights up a cigarette in public everyone shakes their head in disgust. Tell where that isn't a*se uppards?


There is surely a substantive difference between innocuous hand-holding and more explicit displays of sexual activity. Presumably, you likewise object to heterosexual couples holding hands too?


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

I've no objection to anyone holding hands walking down the street, or even giving each other a cuddle and a quick peck, it's the suck face/simulated sex I dislike, from people of ANY orientation.  blimey, last weekend as hubs and I separated after having our lunch out (me going shopping him to his footie pub) i said "erm Giz a kiss then" and his reaction " knob off we are is public"  old romantic he is.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Barcode said:


> There is surely a substantive difference between innocuous hand-holding and more explicit displays of sexual activity. Presumably, you likewise object to heterosexual couples holding hands too?


Personally I think it's so sweet to see people holding hands but tongues down each other's throats in public, ugh! Opposite or same sex, no difference.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Barcode said:


> There is surely a substantive difference between innocuous hand-holding and more explicit displays of sexual activity. Presumably, you likewise object to heterosexual couples holding hands too?


Did I say I objected? I think you are being far too touchy if you think I did, because I did not. I have nothing against anyone holding hands, but I do not want to see a woman walking down the street with her boyfriend's hand shoved between her legs as I witnessed once.


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## Barcode (Mar 7, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> Did I say I objected? I think you are being far too touchy if you think I did, because I did not. I have nothing against anyone holding hands, but I do not want to see a woman walking down the street with her boyfriend's hand shoved between her legs as I witnessed once.


Neither do I. I merely meant that hand-holding is fairly innocuous, same-sex, or otherwise. I was just perplexed at the apparent equivocation between that and more amorous activities.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> Personally I think it's so sweet to see people holding hands but tongues down each other's throats in public, ugh! Opposite or same sex, no difference.


This. There's a line that some people cross when it comes to public displays of affection and for me that line is no different whether it's a straight couple or a gay one. I don't mind seeing people kiss in public as long as it's not the all out, tongue down throat, groping sort of thing lol. I don't need to see hands down pants or anything like that.

I found out a few weeks ago that I am not allowed to hold my husbands hand while he's in uniform. Which I find a rather weird rule lol.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Barcode said:


> Neither do I. I merely meant that hand-holding is fairly innocuous, same-sex, or otherwise. I was just perplexed at the apparent equivocation between that and more amorous activities.


No, all I meant was that everything is too open today, at least that is how I see it. I grew up in the fifties, when Elvis was banned from the waist down on tv because he wiggled, and condoms were only available from machines in men's toilets. You probably won't believe it, but my mother did not believe that sanitary towels were on sale in chemists because that was so intensely secret and they "wouldn't have them on display where men could see them" My mother-in-law argued with me as late as 1968 that there was no such thing as a lesbian because it was only men that did that, not women.

I don't want to go back to those attitudes, do not get me wrong, but I think it has all gone to the other extreme now. There is nothing secret and nothing special.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't know a lot of homosexuals but f*rom what I have seen they seem to talk more about their private doings than a hetersexual person would*. That is probably one of the reasons. I don't want to hear about anyone's sex life, thanks very much, straight or not.
> 
> My husband's cousin is homosexual and although I am very fond of him as a person, he does do things like invite my daughter out and say: Do you fancy an evening with a bunch of poofters? It doesn't bother her, but to me I think, why say it? You wouldn't ask a cousin or friend out and specifically tell them that all the others are straight, would you?


I can see how you might get that impression if you do not personally know many gay people, and the ones you do know are extroverts like your husband's cousin. However, if you think about it, you will you will actually have met many more gay people than you realise - acquaintances, people you see in the pub/shop/library/art gallery/bingo hall/dog show/walking the dog/on tv/wherever - all quietly getting on with their lives; and you will realise that this is not the case at all.

There are extroverts and introverts (and all stages inbetween) in every walk of life, irrespective of sexual orientaton. Think of some of the really extrovert heterosexual "stars" and the attention they seek and find about their relationships (heck, think of some of the drama llamas who have come and gone on here  ) - it doesn't mean that all heterosexuals are as extrovert as that (or that all pet-forumers are drama llamas :lol and the same is true for homosexuals.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I can see how you might get that impression if you do not personally know many gay people, and the ones you do know are extroverts like your husband's cousin. However, if you think about it, you will you will actually have met many more gay people than you realise - acquaintances, people you see in the pub/shop/library/art gallery/bingo hall/dog show/walking the dog/on tv/wherever - all quietly getting on with their lives; and you will realise that this is not the case at all.
> 
> There are extroverts and introverts (and all stages inbetween) in every walk of life, irrespective of sexual orientaton. Think of some of the really extrovert heterosexual "stars" and the attention they seek and find about their relationships (heck, think of some of the drama llamas who have come and gone on here  ) - it doesn't mean that all heterosexuals are as extrovert as that (or that all pet-forumers are drama llamas :lol and the same is true for homosexuals.


You are probably right and yes, Martin is a bit of an extrovert! I just wish that everyone would keep their private lives private as they did in the old days; then it was something special, now it just seems to be taken for granted. I am a miserable old bag, let's face it!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> Did I say I objected? I think you are being far too touchy if you think I did, because I did not. I have nothing against anyone holding hands, but* I do not want to see a woman walking down the street with her boyfriend's hand shoved between her legs as I witnessed once.*




Eeeeeeuuuw!

Have people got no shame these days?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Fleur said:


> I know 3 sets of twins
> 1 boy, 1 girl - both are Gay
> 2 girls (identical) - both are Gay
> 2 boys (non-identical) 1 is Gay
> ...


I am more impressed that you know THREE sets of twins! WOW!

In all my life I've only met three sets of twins.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

lostbear said:


> [/B]
> 
> Eeeeeeuuuw!
> 
> Have people got no shame these days?


If you think that's bad don't ever think of becoming a taxi driver.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> Sorry sounds like I might have been given your share, which brings its own problems.
> 
> An old friend of mine used to say "All I ever wanted was a bust. I wouldn't have minded having eggs for a bust, if only they hadn't been fried!"


Mine are not only fried, but they don't even have any whites!

I have to admit I'd rather have none that a very large bust. I have generously endowed friends, and they used to get terrible comments from men (of a different sort to the ones I got, obviously), and had the added difficulty of horrendous back and shoulder problems. I know two women who have had their breasts reduced. I don't know anyone who has had an augmentation.

If only nature could have given us all a nice 34 B/C cup, eh?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

ForeverHome said:


> If you think that's bad don't ever think of becoming a taxi driver.


I consider myself forewarned. Hahaha.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I know you are right about the cousin. In fact he announced on tv (he is a tv presenter) that he was gay so that his family wouldn't cover it up, cos that what they do with anything that is not quite right.
> *
> As to Jim Davidson, sore point. We had tickets one evening to see Freddie Starr, but cos he was ill, they put JD on instead. He took the pee seriously out of the mentally handicapped which upset my son no end, being as he and a lot of his friends are just that. Obviously not too daft to understand the so called jokes, even if that idiot thought they were*.
> 
> I just seems to me that everything has got too out in the open nowadays. You see same sex couples walking along holding hands, hetro couples practically having sex up against lamposts, but if someone lights up a cigarette in public everyone shakes their head in disgust. Tell where that isn't a*se uppards?


That one incident on TV is the only time I've ever felt sorry for him. I've always thought his so-called "humour" was vile, filthy and bullying. In retrospect, maybe it did him good to be on the receiving end.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> I haven't found this to be true personally. I know a lot of gay people and they've almost all been very private about the details of their sex life. Even the guys who are the "look at me, I'm gay!" sort haven't been the sort to tell all the sordid details. *I do however know far more than I want to about the sex lives of a lot of straight men and women I don't even bloody know thanks to them discussing it loudly in public places.*


That really pees me off. I was having a cuppa one time and two women were 'braying' (there is no other word) to each other about anything and everything. Then one of them said to the other - "God - people here are so rude. Everyone is listening to our conversation". I did point out quite loudly that that was because we had no other option, and if they wanted it private why didn't they reduce their voices to foghorn levels.

One day I will get myself thumped (Again).


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

lostbear said:


> I am more impressed that you know THREE sets of twins! WOW!
> 
> In all my life I've only met three sets of twins.


1 set is my cousins girls,
1 set is a close friend
1 set is my daughters close friends 


They are the only twins I currently know - when I was at school there was 2 sets of twins - I believe one of my local towns has the highest rates of Twins in the Country!


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Slowly and surely, attitudes toward homosexuals are changing, the younger generations are not so blinkered/indoctrinated call it what you will. My granddaughters generation (she's 9) will be far more open and unafraid than mine is.

The world has come a long way, very quickly in the last 50 or so years, and because we have leapt forward so fast, the human psyche has yet to fully catch up. Remember, it wasn't so long ago that a woman was expected to stop working when she married let alone have children. As she had a house to look after don't ya know.  

When you younger ones are in your 50s/60s you will be laughing at this thread, there is more and more acceptance all the time, yes there are the occasional set backs, and do you know something, I feel that the press have a fair bit to do with it, every time some poor sod is "outed" we have to have endless pages of this persons life gone over with a fine tooth comb,  I have no interest, just as I have no interest in what Jordan/Katie Price is up to, the vast majority of the public have no interest, sod off and do some real journalism. Now there's a challenge for most newspapers. 

Many people are changing and challenging views of their peers and beliefs, but people need time to adjust (especially us old dodderers) they need to be able to just sit and think about their own feelings and thoughts towards this brave new world, and having it rammed down their throats, (I feel that guy from stonewall, forget his name has a lot to do with getting peoples backs up even if he is well meaning) has a part in people that would consider accepting that we are allowed to be any sexual orientation we choose to be, feeling like their backs are to the wall, and therefore they close off.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

bird said:


> Slowly and surely, attitudes toward homosexuals are changing, the younger generations are not so blinkered/indoctrinated call it what you will. My granddaughters generation (she's 9) will be far more open and unafraid than mine is.


Agreed but sadly racism is massively on the rise, or at least has become more open and "acceptable", ever since 9/11 made it perfectly ok under the guise of "national security". Extremely worrying developments all over Europe and the US and worst of all being accepted and applauded by people who really do not understand the implications of what governments are doing. It's 1984 by the back door,if you'll forgive the expression.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

ForeverHome said:


> Yes but it's much more difficult for a person who has never been encouraged to think for themselves to do that. Not impossible, but a lot lot harder. My father is a case in point, he had a bizarre childhood and his "reaction" is to do exactly the opposite of everything his mother did, which means he is still just as tied by her madness as he would be if he did everything exactly the same. He is 65 this year and it's about time he grew up and started thinking for himself ...


Of course ........but at some point in life we have to form our own opinions based on our experiences not on emotions of past things that have happened ...I say this to my OH a lot because he brings a lot of his baggage from childhood to the table - whilst I do say that we are a product of our environment we ALL have the ability to choose to let that a) be a weight around your neck or b) use it to better yourself and your thinking ..........


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lostbear said:


> [/B]
> 
> Eeeeeeuuuw!
> 
> Have people got no shame these days?


And it was a few minutes before I lit up a *** and had some silly woman tut at me! I thought, get your priorities right love.



ForeverHome said:


> Agreed but sadly racism is massively on the rise, or at least has become more open and "acceptable", ever since 9/11 made it perfectly ok under the guise of "national security". Extremely worrying developments all over Europe and the US and worst of all being accepted and applauded by people who really do not understand the implications of what governments are doing. It's 1984 by the back door,if you'll forgive the expression.


I think a vast amount of racial hatred is caused by the very stupid laws that were designed to prevent it. Equal opportunities I am all in favour of, but when firms are told they have to have an equal percentage, meaning they are forced to employ people who cannot do the job as well as someone else, that is what causes problems. Also the little boxes we are supposed to fill out tell everyone our ethnic group. It is that blatent fight to not be racist that causes the ill feeling.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I think a vast amount of racial hatred is caused by the very stupid laws that were designed to prevent it. Equal opportunities I am all in favour of, but when firms are told they have to have an equal percentage, meaning they are forced to employ people who cannot do the job as well as someone else, that is what causes problems. Also the little boxes we are supposed to fill out tell everyone our ethnic group. It is that blatent fight to not be racist that causes the ill feeling.


You should have seen my hubs face when this ruling came in, the words were along the lines of

" if you think I'm hiring someone who is crap at the job and therefore damaging this companies reputation, just for some a-hole with a clipboard can put a tick against my company name they can kiss my hairy ****. I employ people on merit flipping only so they can shove it"

He said something pretty similar when the government decided that all companies should have a percentage of women in top jobs too, however I've removed all the expletives that accompanied what he said.  he can swear a lot for an accountant.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

bird said:


> You should have seen my hubs face when this ruling came in, the words were along the lines of
> 
> " if you think I'm hiring someone who is crap at the job and therefore damaging this companies reputation, just for some a-hole with a clipboard can put a tick against my company name they can kiss my hairy ****. I employ people on merit flipping only so they can shove it"
> 
> He said something pretty similar when the government decided that all companies should have a percentage of women in top jobs too, however I've removed all the expletives that accompanied what he said.  he can swear a lot for an accountant.


He sounds like a man after my own heart. When my son had his bicycle stolen from the railway station, I couldn't believe that the transport police on the phone asked me what colour he was. I said yellow, and he said: no not the bike, your son. What the hell difference does that make? I asked him if he could spell caucasian.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> Also the little boxes we are supposed to fill out tell everyone our ethnic group. It is that blatent fight to not be racist that causes the ill feeling.


I love the little boxes, they are ethnically speaking nonesense. I either refuse to fill them in or, if I'm feeling obstreperous, I tick other and write Semitic. They have no idea what that means, it means Jewish as an ethnic group not a religion, and then religion is atheist.

Then they say it's confidential and won't be put with the rest of the paperwork, yet if you didn't fill it in they manage to write to you saying you didn't fill it in. Hmm.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> I love the little boxes, they are ethnically speaking nonesense. I either refuse to fill them in or, if I'm feeling obstreperous, I tick other and write Semitic. They have no idea what that means, it means Jewish as an ethnic group not a religion, and then religion is atheist.
> 
> Then they say it's confidential and won't be put with the rest of the paperwork, yet if you didn't fill it in they manage to write to you saying you didn't fill it in. Hmm.


I used to put homosapiens, which means human. I think a lot of people have objected to those forms because nowadays they have an extra box which says "I would rather not answer".


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## Mulish (Feb 20, 2013)

In my experience it's mostly seemed to be learnt behaviour but I don't think you can underestimate the number of people who just enjoy disliking others and will grab onto any reason to do it. I think there must be a lot of catharsis in spewing random, ignorant vitriol about anyone who seems a bit 'different' to you. Otherwise it wouldn't be so popular.

(This thought bought to you from the Yahoo news comments sections)


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Bloodraine5252 said:


> If she wore a pair of leggings and a vest top she would fall and probably injure herself. There's a reason tiny shorts are needed and in higher levels, a crop top. The only reason you stick to the pole is through contact with the skin if you wear clothes you won't be able to do much.


Every day's a school day!

Makes perfect sense now you've explained, although if I had thought about it, I should have realised - in my defence I ws tired and my bed was calling me


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Mulish said:


> In my experience it's mostly seemed to be learnt behaviour but I don't think you can underestimate the number of people who just enjoy disliking others and will grab onto any reason to do it. I think there must be a lot of catharsis in spewing random, ignorant vitriol about anyone who seems a bit 'different' to you. Otherwise it wouldn't be so popular.
> 
> (This thought bought to you from the Yahoo news comments sections)


So true and sometimes some people don't even have a reason to dislike someone else, only it perhaps gives them pleasure to be an arse.

To be honest when I meet people like that, those who take an instant disliking to someone based on nothing, I just always assume it's something like jealousy. It's crazy (I'm at college) how bitchy some of the girls can be, especially in the bathrooms when they're doing their make-up. 'Did you see what she was wearing today, etc'

I just think 'Really' Your life must be very plain and boring to want to spend a good ten minutes bitching about what someone is wearing. Jealous me thinks. And those sort of people are the ones you just look at and think 'Lol, are you serious'

I really do get annoyed by people who dislike people and bitch about someone for no reason. Nobody is perfect and I just think 'Sort your own life out first and concentrate on you before judging someone else' None of us are perfect and we all bear faults.

I think some people are like that because of their own insecurities and being like that towards someone else can somewhat block it.

And the whole thing with people talking loudly about their sex life peeves me off too, especially when you hear 'You shagged him. You shagged that sket last night'

I hate it. Especially when a guy will proceed to use cruel words to the girl he slept with. It's just showing off imo. Some girls thinking it's cool and some guys wanting to be the 'boy.

I say some with all of that but I can't see any reason for wanting to spill your personal life in the public ears.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> And it was a few minutes before I lit up a *** and had some silly woman tut at me! I thought, get your priorities right love.
> 
> *
> I think a vast amount of racial hatred is caused by the very stupid laws that were designed to prevent it. Equal opportunities I am all in favour of, but when firms are told they have to have an equal percentage, meaning they are forced to employ people who cannot do the job as well as someone else, that is what causes problems. Also the little boxes we are supposed to fill out tell everyone our ethnic group. It is that blatent fight to not be racist that causes the ill feeling*.


Agree with every word here. The best person for the job should be the one who is offered it - but that doesn't necessarily mean the best qualified. If, for instance, the job involves interaction with the public, or working as part of a team, then you need someone who can get on with people - anyone who is abrasive and rude can have qualifications coming out of their fundamental orifices, but they wouldn't be any good.

But I agree that having to emily someone who is of a particular ethnicity (or gender, of physical enablement, or sexual orientation, or age) just to fill a quota is absolute rubbish, and is one o the reasons that there are so many useless people in jobs, and so many able ones who can't find employment. Plus, if I ran a small company, as far as I would be concerned, if I'm paying the wages, I would employ whoever the hell I wanted!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Those laws are ridiculous. Whoever is the most qualified regardless of gender, race, sexuality etc should be the one hired. Quotas are just demeaning


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lostbear said:


> Agree with every word here. The best person for the job should be the one who is offered it - but that doesn't necessarily mean the best qualified. If, for instance, the job involves interaction with the public, or working as part of a team, then you need someone who can get on with people - anyone who is abrasive and rude can have qualifications coming out of their fundamental orifices, but they wouldn't be any good.
> 
> But I agree that having to emily someone who is of a particular ethnicity (or gender, of physical enablement, or sexual orientation, or age) just to fill a quota is absolute rubbish, and is one o the reasons that there are so many useless people in jobs, and so many able ones who can't find employment. Plus, if I ran a small company, as far as I would be concerned, if I'm paying the wages, I would employ whoever the hell I wanted!


A few years ago in our local paper was a story about a publican who advertised for a person to help with changing barrels, and lifting crates as well as bar work. He was not allowed to advertised for a male, but the female who went for the job was pregnant. So he said he couldn't employ someone who was pregnant to do heavy lifting and she sued him for discrimination and won. That is the sort damned stupid thing that these equal opportunity dogmas have brought about. That man should have been able to advertise for a man in the first place.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I found out a few weeks ago that I am not allowed to hold my husbands hand while he's in uniform. Which I find a rather weird rule lol.


*Of course not...a traffic warden needs both hands to write out a ticket *

.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

bird said:


> You should have seen my hubs face when this ruling came in, the words were along the lines of
> 
> " if you think I'm hiring someone who is crap at the job and therefore damaging this companies reputation, just for some a-hole with a clipboard can put a tick against my company name they can kiss my hairy ****. I employ people on merit flipping only so they can shove it"
> 
> He said something pretty similar when the government decided that all companies should have a percentage of women in top jobs too, however I've removed all the expletives that accompanied what he said.  he can swear a lot for an accountant.


ETA - BIRD[/B] I think I've read your comment wrong and Nicky is trying to explain it to me now but bear with me because my autism is bad 

I think I've got the wrong end of the stick but I can't understand why just yet  xx

Bird and anyone else reading this Nick just explained it to me properly and I completely misunderstood hence I've deleted my previous comment *shame* 

So sorry


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> *I think a vast amount of racial hatred is caused by the very stupid laws that were designed to prevent it.* Equal opportunities I am all in favour of, but when firms are told they have to have an equal percentage, meaning they are forced to employ people who cannot do the job as well as someone else, that is what causes problems. Also the little boxes we are supposed to fill out tell everyone our ethnic group. It is that blatent fight to not be racist that causes the ill feeling.


Yup. Mum used to work for the Inland Revenue, and knew of a number people who were so bad at their job that they would normally have been let go, but because they were from an ethnic background they were - get this - _promoted_ instead by the senior managerss to avoid any possibility of being sued and keep the quotas up. ut:

The fundamental flaw with quotas and other similar measures is that that kind of well intentioned 'positive discrimination' _is still discrimination_ - and therefore *not* equality. At best, people are left wondering if jobs were gained on merit or just so someone somewhere can tick the correct diversity boxes. At worst, non-minorities and the majority of the ethnic minorities end up frustrated at the small number who take advantage of the situation by crying discrimination at the drop of a hat. And that's not helpful to anyone.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Yup. Mum used to work for the Inland Revenue, and knew of a number people who were so bad at their job that they would normally have been let go, but because they were from an ethnic background they were - get this - _promoted_ instead by the senior managerss to avoid any possibility of being sued and keep the quotas up. ut:
> 
> The fundamental flaw with quotas and other similar measures is that that kind of well intentioned 'positive discrimination' _is still discrimination_ - and therefore *not* equality. At best, people are left wondering if jobs were gained on merit or just so someone somewhere can tick the correct diversity boxes. At worst, non-minorities and the majority of the ethnic minorities end up frustrated at the small number who take advantage of the situation by crying discrimination at the drop of a hat. And that's not helpful to anyone.


Exactly they are as discriminatory as the system they're trying to fix. People shouldn't be put ahead of someone better qualified for the job just because of an accident of birth. The vast majority of people don't want that, they want to be judged on their ability to do the job. There's the odd it's cause I is black/ insert whatever minority is applicable but most aren't like that.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> Exactly they are as discriminatory as the system they're trying to fix. People shouldn't be put ahead of someone better qualified for the job just because of an accident of birth. The vast majority of people don't want that, they want to be judged on their ability to do the job. There's the odd it's cause I is black/ insert whatever minority is applicable but most aren't like that.


Just to say thanks for always being there and taking the time to explain nuances to me  *reps*


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

One thing that annoys me when people have a 'problem' with gay people is that they think being gay/bi is all about sex and promiscuity. It goes much deeper than that, like any hetro relationship goes much deeper than just sex.

I don't get why people can't understand that!! and it irks me :mad2:

*BEING GAY IS NOT JUST ABOUT SEX!*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Royoyo said:


> One thing that annoys me when people have a 'problem' with gay people is that they think being gay/bi is all about sex and promiscuity. It goes much deeper than that, like any hetro relationship goes much deeper than just sex.
> 
> I don't get why people can't understand that!! and it irks me :mad2:
> 
> *BEING GAY IS NOT JUST ABOUT SEX!*


I've never seen anyone as obsessed with gay sex as some of the people speaking out against it, it's seems almost pathological in some :blink:. But of course people assume if you're bi especially that you're going to cheat or you're going to sleep with everything that moves.


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## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> I've never seen anyone as obsessed with gay sex as some of the people speaking out against it, it's seems almost pathological in some :blink:. But of course people assume if you're bi especially that you're going to cheat or you're going to sleep with everything that moves.


I agree and I see these people commenting ''I don't care who you sleep with, it's not my business'' etc, quote me if I'm wrong but I swear I went past a few posts that said something along those lines.

I just feel like it's made out to be seedy. It's not just about who you 'sleep with', it's about love, not just sex.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Royoyo said:


> I agree and I see these people commenting ''I don't care who you sleep with, it's not my business'' etc, quote me if I'm wrong but I swear I went past a few posts that said something along those lines.
> 
> I just feel like it's made out to be seedy. It's not just about who you 'sleep with', it's about love, not just sex.


I've seen that concern with poly people a lot as well. I really don't think people mean it that way but it can seem like that.


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

Royoyo said:


> I agree and I see these people commenting ''I don't care who you sleep with, it's not my business'' etc, quote me if I'm wrong but I swear I went past a few posts that said something along those lines.
> 
> I just feel like it's made out to be seedy. It's not just about who you 'sleep with', it's about love, not just sex.


Erm, me thinks that's just your take on it.  I KNOW that the ONLY difference between hetro and **** is sexual orientation. Other than that the worries, fears, joy and happiness are the same across the board. So of course the sex side of it comes into play when these kind of discussions occur, as THAT is the ONLY difference between everyone.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

I started writing this yesterday when I had to drop everything for a friend in need.

Just wanted to say how refreshing it is to read 28 pages of discussion and different points of view on quite an emotive topic without any arguments, insults or trouble. I've been on other forums where it's not like this and I really, really appreciate it. 

Anyone got a tree that wants a hug?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ForeverHome said:


> I started writing this yesterday when I had to drop everything for a friend in need.
> 
> Just wanted to say how refreshing it is to read 28 pages of discussion and different points of view on quite an emotive topic without any arguments, insults or trouble. I've been on other forums where it's not like this and I really, really appreciate it.
> 
> Anyone got a tree that wants a hug?


no, feckin hate trees


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> no, feckin hate trees


Wanna have a row about it? :laugh:


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

You wanna be a bit nicer about trees. Without them you wouldn't be here.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> I started writing this yesterday when I had to drop everything for a friend in need.
> 
> Just wanted to say how refreshing it is to read 28 pages of discussion and different points of view on quite an emotive topic without any arguments, insults or trouble. I've been on other forums where it's not like this and I really, really appreciate it.
> 
> Anyone got a tree that wants a hug?


Lol, it's not often it's like it on here to be fair. But yes, it is nice to have such a long thread on something that people do tend to have strong views on without anyone really getting sh*tty.

The tree outside my flat is looking a little neglected if you'd like to come hug it. I daren't hug it myself, the neighbours already think I'm weird.


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## ForeverHome (Jan 14, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> The tree outside my flat is looking a little neglected if you'd like to come hug it. I daren't hug it myself, the neighbours already think I'm weird.


But if you saw a neglected homosexual, would you hug him or her in spite of what the neighbours might think?

(Tongue in cheek intended humour, just in case anyone misreads that)


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## bird (Apr 2, 2009)

ForeverHome said:


> But if you saw a neglected homosexual, would you hug him or her in spite of what the neighbours might think?
> 
> (Tongue in cheek intended humour, just in case anyone misreads that)


Course I would and if it was a bloke and conformed to stereotype, as a thank you he could style my hair afterwards and go shopping with me. :yikes:

JOKE!!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ForeverHome said:


> But if you saw a neglected homosexual, would you hug him or her in spite of what the neighbours might think?
> 
> (Tongue in cheek intended humour, just in case anyone misreads that)


Actually no. I would not hug any strange human, homosexual or otherwise, or even one I knew unless it was one of my kids. A neglected animal though, now that would be quite different.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ForeverHome said:


> But if you saw a neglected homosexual, would you hug him or her in spite of what the neighbours might think?
> 
> (Tongue in cheek intended humour, just in case anyone misreads that)


That would depend on whether or not I knew said neglected homosexual, hugging strange neglected people is very different to hugging strange neglected trees you see.


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