# Clay Hall Farm, Diss, Norfolk



## littlealex (Aug 29, 2020)

Hi, does anyone have any experience of this breeder who has been going for 12 years apparently. Any concerns at all or do you recommend?

Their site is easy to find via google, not sure i can post it here!

Thanks in advance!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. Glorified puppy farm.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole. Glorified puppy farm.


Same here!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

What are you looking for in a puppy @littlealex ?


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## littlealex (Aug 29, 2020)

Well a Jackapoo appeals because I think from what I've read and that it will fit our family, two kids, 7 & 11. Is this really a puppy farm? Even with the license and the local authority stuff they have etc...?

Thanks for replying by the way!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

littlealex said:


> Well a Jackapoo appeals because I think from what I've read and that it will fit our family, two kids, 7 & 11. Is this really a puppy farm? Even with the license and the local authority stuff they have etc...?
> 
> Thanks for replying by the way!


A licence simply means they breed so many litters per year, unfortunately. It doesn't mean they're ethical or even reputable breeders.

What attracts you to a jackapoo over either a Jack Russel or poodle?

Walk away. In fact, don't walk - run!


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## littlealex (Aug 29, 2020)

They broke one of the rules I have been following for choosing a breeder I can trust. They said that I couldn't see where the dogs live and couldn't look around that area as they have had issues with burglaries in the area. I think maybe this is a reason in itself to walk...?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

What do you like about a jackapoo. Is there a pure breed that would tick your boxes so you know what you are getting. I have seen jackapoos in all shapes and sizes and more importantly all sorts of coats from short haired to shaggy.


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## littlealex (Aug 29, 2020)

@LinznMilly

Good question: What attracts you to a jackapoo over either a Jack Russel or poodle?

I like what I read about them being good with kids, family pets, how long they live, their general temperament and how lively they are. I also on a superficial level like the size, shapes, colours etc.

Do you think I'm wrong looking at a hybrid. We have a few friends who have fantastic cockapoos for example...


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## littlealex (Aug 29, 2020)

I live in North Herts so would love some recommendations on breeders to contact. I've tried looking at rescue dogs but seem to only find that all the dogs aren't suitable for families with kids - maybe I'm looking in the wrong place...


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

littlealex said:


> Is this really a puppy farm?


Yes. 
Look at their advertised litters, their past litters and start adding up how many bitches they have breeding how often. They have multiple litters on the ground all the time. The only way to produce that many litters is to keep the dogs in puppy farm conditions. 
They currently have five litters. You can't possibly give proper care to the dams, puppies, proper socialization to that many litters in one home.

Note all the pictures are of puppies being held, no photos of puppies playing, on the ground with littermates or dam, showing the conditions they live in.

Avoid, avoid, avoid.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

He is indeed a puppy farmer,there are many cross breeds including a 'Norfolk Mountain Dog .' ( think about it ! )
I agree with @Blitz, you are much better to look at a pedigree or rescue puppy. 
Great that you picked up on the being unable to see the dogs' environment, a major red flag.


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## littlealex (Aug 29, 2020)

@02.0 thanks for the advice. What a shame, I'm certain I'm not the first, but what the hell. If what you're saying is true (and I've no reason to doubt it) I'm appalled this can happen and that places like this can exist. Is it possible they don't realise what they are doing isn't right. Why isn't this something that the authorities or RSPCA can stop somehow? Or is it that this isnt illegal as such but is still damaging and wrong? I know I sound like a total novice on this but then I am really as I've only just started in the last few months to look. I could do with some pointers as to who to trust as this seems like a labyrinth to me just now!


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

Good ethical breeders do tests on their breeding dogs (proper tests, not just checks to say the dog is capable of siring/carrying a litter) to breed out inheritable conditions so that's always a good place to start. Puppy farmers probably wouldn't bother, due to the cost - they are only interested in profit.

Because good breeders are more concerned with the welfare of the breed than with profit though, it more likely thety are breeding pedigree dogs rather than crosses.

It used to be believed that crossbreeds had the best of both breeds and health problems were 'bred out' but in fact you could well get a puppy who has inherited health defects from both parents, and these could cause long term pain and distress to the dog and cause the owner to incur on going expensive vet bills. Marilyn Munro allegedly once suggested to Albert Einstein that if they had babies they would be amazing with her beauty and his brains. Einstein allegedly replied how awful it would be if it were the other way round. You get the picture! 

There are some responsible breeders of crossbreeds and that is a good thing. But they are very few and you may have to search extensively to find one. 

Have you considered a poodle? They can be sourced with far less risk. If it is the look of the traditional poodle that puts you off, they can be left in a shaggy clip that has the look of the popular crossbreeds.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Isn't this the establishment of our resident puppy farmer?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Sairy said:


> Isn't this the establishment of our resident puppy farmer?


No longer resident.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

littlealex said:


> @LinznMilly
> 
> Good question: What attracts you to a jackapoo over either a Jack Russel or poodle?
> 
> ...


The poodle crosses (or any other cross) are not hybrids, that is a misnomer. They are crossbreeds or often so many breeds mixed in that they are mongrels. A hybrid is a cross between two species. A jack russel crossed with a poodle can actually look like anything between a small terrier, a larger terrier, a shaggy dog, a curly dog and can have any sort of temperament. Yes, there are some lovely ones the same as there are lots of lovely crossbreeds and mongrels with all sorts of breeds in them. Jack Russels are lovely sporty dogs that vary a great deal in size and temperament and shed like mad but if you like terriers you can probably find something that suits you. Poodles are also lovely sporty dogs who come in fairly set sizes and temperaments and coats that do not shed and make fantastic family pets. Sadly the lockdown has rocketed puppy prices up but I notice that well bred litters from health tested parents are much more reasonably priced than the carelessly bred, non health tested and often mismarked or totally wrong coloured litters.

This is one of my poodles, she is a fantastic dog, full of life and energy and loves everyone.


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## Comeback. (Aug 30, 2020)

littlealex said:


> @02.0 thanks for the advice. What a shame, I'm certain I'm not the first, but what the hell. If what you're saying is true (and I've no reason to doubt it) I'm appalled this can happen and that places like this can exist. Is it possible they don't realise what they are doing isn't right. Why isn't this something that the authorities or RSPCA can stop somehow? Or is it that this isnt illegal as such but is still damaging and wrong? I know I sound like a total novice on this but then I am really as I've only just started in the last few months to look. I could do with some pointers as to who to trust as this seems like a labyrinth to me just now!


 Sorry that you have problems with Clay Hall, but just for your information......
We do not take people into our puppy housing for the simple reason that we don't want any disease brought in We have had experience of this in the past, where people have been out puppy shopping, and came here after visiting somewhere else, and left behind some sort of bug. That was a sad little time, and we don't want any sort of repeat of it.
This is limitation, of course, as you have to see the pup itself, but we do what we can.
The new twist to this is that we did actually have police advice, following a spate of break-ins at kennels, to limit what people actuall saw when they visit. I think it is called casing the joint.
You did see both parents, and the pup itself, and I don't think that you can say that there was anything amiss with any of them.
You can set your own "rules", of course, but they are just that, and we have our own here.
I guess that you won't be calling back about the pup, which is a shame, but please refrain from comments like the above. Defamation is something we take seriously.

Edited to remove identfying references.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Comeback. said:


> Sorry that you have problems with Clay Hall, but just for your information......
> We do not take people into our puppy housing for the simple reason that we don't want any disease brought in We have had experience of this in the past, where people have been out puppy shopping, and came here after visiting somewhere else, and left behind some sort of bug. That was a sad little time, and we don't want any sort of repeat of it.
> This is limitation, of course, as you have to see the pup itself, but we do what we can.
> The new twist to this is that we did actually have police advice, following a spate of break-ins at kennels, to limit what people actuall saw when they visit. I think it is called casing the joint.
> ...


So how many litters do you have on the ground now?
There was nothing defamatory in the post you quoted, and threatening members is not nice 

ETA: Nor is doxing, just noticed that.

Edited to remove identifying reference .


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

SusieRainbow said:


> No longer resident.


They're baaaaack!

Honestly no shame some people


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> So how many litters do you have on the ground now?
> There was nothing defamatory in the post you quoted, and threatening members is not nice
> 
> ETA: Nor is doxing, just noticed that.


What is doxing


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Blitz said:


> What is doxing


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> What is doxing


Sharing personal information the poster did not intend to make public.
In this case, using littlealex's first name instead of referring to them by their username. It's just not cool.

Doxing can get really bad when people share personal addresses and places of work, especially in social media witch hunt type situations.
Here I just found calling the poster by their first name in combination with the last comment about defamation particularly aggressive and unpleasant.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> Sharing personal information the poster did not intend to make public.
> In this case, using littlealex's first name instead of referring to them by their username. It's just not cool.
> 
> Doxing can get really bad when people share personal addresses and places of work, especially in social media witch hunt type situations.
> Here I just found calling the poster by their first name in combination with the last comment about defamation particularly aggressive and unpleasant.


Funny how people like this can find so much time to pounce on comments regarding their 'establishment' ….. with all the puppies they churn out you'd think their time might be spent more productively


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Funny how people like this can find so much time to pounce on comments regarding their 'establishment' ….. with all the puppies they churn out you'd think their time might be spent more productively


Like properly socializing the puppies or at least cleaning the eye gunk out of their eyes before taking a for sale picture of them?


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Comeback. said:


> Sorry that you have problems with Clay Hall, but just for your information......
> We do not take people into our puppy housing for the simple reason that we don't want any disease brought in We have had experience of this in the past, where people have been out puppy shopping, and came here after visiting somewhere else, and left behind some sort of bug. That was a sad little time, and we don't want any sort of repeat of it.
> This is limitation, of course, as you have to see the pup itself, but we do what we can.
> The new twist to this is that we did actually have police advice, following a spate of break-ins at kennels, to limit what people actuall saw when they visit. I think it is called casing the joint.
> ...


Hmm funny that the good breeders I know are allowing people in to see where pups are brought up! You are just using excuses for your puppy farming activities.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> Hmm funny that the good breeders I know are allowing people in to see where pups are brought up! You are just using excuses for your puppy farming activities.


I've been enjoying a breeder friend's posts on FB. Tons of photos and videos of the puppies in multiple environments, surfaces, noises, outside working on the beginnings of recall, playing with toys and totofit equipment, inside with mum and as they got older her other dogs.

It's easy enough to show how puppies live and are raised. That this "kennel" won't let you visit, has no videos of the puppies interacting with each other and their mum at the very least, nothing to show the environment in which they live, that says a lot.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I've been enjoying a breeder friend's posts on FB. Tons of photos and videos of the puppies in multiple environments, surfaces, noises, outside working on the beginnings of recall, playing with toys and totofit equipment, inside with mum and as they got older her other dogs.
> 
> It's easy enough to show how puppies live and are raised. That this "kennel" won't let you visit, has no videos of the puppies interacting with each other and their mum at the very least, nothing to show the environment in which they live, that says a lot.


I just looked at some of the pics 

I realise sometimes the camera can catch moments that can be misinterpreted but blimey …. those puppies don't look happy or alert. When I contrast with the puppies I see from people I know who breed (responsibly & ethically) their puppies are so happy looking, so lively & not worried at all by being handled. If those pics are the best of the bunch then that is worrying


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I've been enjoying a breeder friend's posts on FB. Tons of photos and videos of the puppies in multiple environments, surfaces, noises, outside working on the beginnings of recall, playing with toys and totofit equipment, inside with mum and as they got older her other dogs.
> 
> It's easy enough to show how puppies live and are raised. That this "kennel" won't let you visit, has no videos of the puppies interacting with each other and their mum at the very least, nothing to show the environment in which they live, that says a lot.


Exactly. If you are worried about CV19 then yes, being outside rather than letting people into your house is sensible, but you can easily show people videos and photos, and have zoom or video calls where you show them round virtually.



Cleo38 said:


> I just looked at some of the pics
> 
> I realise sometimes the camera can catch moments that can be misinterpreted but blimey …. those puppies don't look happy or alert. When I contrast with the puppies I see from people I know who breed (responsibly & ethically) their puppies are so happy looking, so lively & not worried at all by being handled. If those pics are the best of the bunch then that is worrying


Yes my boss had a litter (literally the stud came to stay just before lockdown and it was all planned before this pandemic happened!) over lockdown and you can see their upbringing, playtime, where they sleep, where they go outside and all the enrichment stuff, their first free run in the field etc.

There is NO excuse not to be able to show prospective owners where the puppies are brought up and living.


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## littlealex (Aug 29, 2020)

@everyone - thank you very much for your advice and help with this. We are now reconsidering exactly what we are doing in terms of what type of dog to be looking for as from everything I read this crossbreeds don't seem the best idea. You may well have saved us a fair bit of heartache here. I won't be contacting the breeder again and in fact I'm wondering if its better just to remove this whole thread as the doxing attempt is just not fair and suggests a level of possible malevolence, thanks guys...


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

If you are considering a crossbreed why not look in rescue?

They will be overflowing once all the Lockdown pups lose their appeal.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

littlealex said:


> @everyone - thank you very much for your advice and help with this. We are now reconsidering exactly what we are doing in terms of what type of dog to be looking for as from everything I read this crossbreeds don't seem the best idea. You may well have saved us a fair bit of heartache here. I won't be contacting the breeder again and in fact I'm wondering if its better just to remove this whole thread as the doxing attempt is just not fair and suggests a level of possible malevolence, thanks guys...


Could I request the thread is NOT removed? Reading through it could help other people who are researching this breeder. It will likely come up in internet searches.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

If the thread is kept then could the original poster be given a new username to protect them? If not then they will always be sharing information with someone on the internet that they don’t want to.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Jobeth said:


> If the thread is kept then could the original poster be given a new username to protect them? If not then they will always be sharing information with someone on the internet that they don't want to.


If the OP s agreeable to that it would be fine.
I have already deleted the 'Doxxing' references.


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I just looked at some of the pics
> 
> I realise sometimes the camera can catch moments that can be misinterpreted but blimey …. those puppies don't look happy or alert. When I contrast with the puppies I see from people I know who breed (responsibly & ethically) their puppies are so happy looking, so lively & not worried at all by being handled. If those pics are the best of the bunch then that is worrying


I found it very disturbing and sad looking at them, my breeder made the puppies look and sound so wonderful I wanted them all . She kept daily updates which were available to any interested person to access with a summary on her FB Page. I feel privileged to have such a caring breeder


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## Chris13 (Feb 15, 2020)

I had 2 take a look and now regret it never seen puppies look as sad and scared


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