# Inbreeding



## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

I know rabbits can go through more inbreeding than most domestic species but what are the limits? I know a mother and son can be bred together but what if the mother is also the grandmother to the buck she is being bred to? 

How far are breeders willing to inbreed their stock and if your a breeder whats the most inbreeding would you consider before cutting inbreeding out


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## Kammie (Apr 4, 2009)

...

Inbreeding is the reason there are so many rabbits with health problems. People see it as OK because on the outside the rabbit looks fine, on the inside though all sorts of problems occur. 

Dental issues are a big problem with inbred rabbits. Leading to the rabbit living a life full of pain or having regular dentals costing thousands. 

Its the people on this forum that end up picking up the pieces looking after the rabbits that have all the genetic issues. Just ask anyone on here and they'll have a story of one of their rabbits that has been inbred and has health issues. 

I for example have an 8 (nearly 9) year old dental bun who has cost me over £6000 in vet bils for her teeth alone, caused by inbreeding.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

what you are refering to is known as line breeding, and i dont actually like the way your question is going...

line breeding should only EVER be done by some one with a FULL complex understanding of genetics, and it should only EVER be done for reasons such as to improve the health of a breed, not just because you want to breed more animals. 
the less inbred an animal is, the better, you should never inbreed just for the sake of doing so that is when stupid avoidable problems occur


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> what you are refering to is known as line breeding, and i dont actually like the way your question is going...
> 
> line breeding should only EVER be done by some one with a FULL complex understanding of genetics, and it should only EVER be done for reasons such as to improve the health of a breed, not just because you want to breed more animals.
> the less inbred an animal is, the better, you should never inbreed just for the sake of doing so that is when stupid avoidable problems occur


My question is simply curious... I just know inbreeding or line breeding is debated a lot in the dog world and I know Rabbits naturally can tolerate some level of inbreeding compared to other species. So I was curious to hear about how far is too far in the opinion of breeders and other professionals.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2013)

geordiegaviino said:


> My question is simply curious... I just know inbreeding or line breeding is debated a lot in the dog world and I know Rabbits naturally can tolerate some level of inbreeding compared to other species. So I was curious to hear about how far is too far in the opinion of breeders and other professionals.


I think the answer to your question will greatly vary depending on what sort of breeder you ask...

For me it will depend greatly on the reason for choosing to line (in)breed, and will also depend on who the breeder is.

You need to have a vast knowledge of genetics before even thinking of embarking on the line (in)breeding journey.... Unfortunately many won't bother..

Soooo to sum it up, with the vast majority of breeders I would say that any line (in) breeding is a bad thing


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> I think the answer to your question will greatly vary depending on what sort of breeder you ask...
> 
> For me it will depend greatly on the reason for choosing to line (in)breed, and will also depend on who the breeder is.
> 
> ...


I guess your right. Sadly there will be those who will breed any two rabbits together as long as they get a litter and there will also be those who would judge even the most careful of breeders for any related rabbits at all.

I guess all pure bred breeds of any species has had to come from some level of inbreeding but sadly there will be those inbreed to such extremes that health isn't even questioned


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## geordiegaviino (Mar 26, 2010)

If anyone can upload pictures of the full effect that inbreeding/line breeding can cause to innocent rabbits that would be great. 

It may even deter people from mating two closely related rabbits


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## beckimoorcroft (Jul 31, 2012)

The key here is genetic knowledge... if you know your rabbits well and the lines well, you could 'in theory' breed brother to sister for generations without any genetic problems cropping up... personally i wouldnt do it as a narrow gene pool brings other problems (smaller in size, smaller litters and compromised immune system, but genes have to get very close to cause this).

Genetic problems (malloclusion, kidney failure etc) are not caused by inbreeding but by the rabbit inheriting two faulty genes... if the rabbits have the faulty genes they show up more quickly through inbreeding or linebreeding, but they have to be there in the first place. Rabbits with any genetic weakness should not be used for breeding.

I regulary use cousins, or half siblings, but the following generation would always be an outcross. Following an outcross (a completely unrelated rabbit) close breeding has to be done again to check that the outcross didnt introduce any undesirable genes.

My smoke pearls all share a common ancester (Apollo) they all come down from him, they are outcrossed and crossed back on alternating generations, most have the same rabbits in their pedigrees a number of times... they are ALL healthy, free from genetic problems and i work very hard to keep the line that way... introducing unknown genetics from outcross rabbits (as no matter how well the other breeder may or may not keep records they are never the same as your own and its always a gamble) is very stressful as you never know what they will introduce.

The only genetic problems i've had so far in my lines have been from the crossing of totally unrelated mini lops, i've sadly had experience with malloclusion and kidney deformities.

This is an piece I wrote in response to someone asking if inbreeding in rabbits causes health issues...



> Different species have different predispositions to inbreeding, in the wild inbreeding is the normal course of action for rabbits as rabbit usually stay within the warren group they were born into, meaning a limited genetic base. Most youngsters find their partner near the social group of their parents, which are usually made up of their parents siblings, cousins etc so the inbreeding of wild rabbits is high, yet they all only have 1 head...
> 
> Comparing that to horses, they have a low tolerance of inbreeding, in the wild the head stallion of the band usually chases out all offspring (colts and fillies) before their 2nd year, this is believed to prevent inbreeding, as horse bands roam, these youngsters find another group to join the movement of the groups helps keep a much wider genetic base in rabbits.
> 
> ...


I can provide a photo of a rabbit that is bred from two closely related rabbits sharing the same ancestor 3 times, but hes fit healthy and well... i can also show a pic of an unrelated rabbit with malloclusion and liver deformities


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2013)

Very well said Becki, rep coming your way


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## beckimoorcroft (Jul 31, 2012)

Its something i can get on my high horse about, people saying inbreeding causes problems are just ignorant to the fact, ignorance of genetics causes the problems... its the same as my opinion on cross breeding... we in rabbits have the benefit (unlike dogs and cats) of not having a closed stud book, there is nothing to stop us crossbreeding, i believe very firmly that we should be using this tool to ensure our breeds remain fit, healthy and genetically diverse... there are lots of compatible breeds (for example I regularly cross sables and smoke pearls because the smoke pearl gene pool is so small)


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2013)

beckimoorcroft said:


> Its something i can get on my high horse about, people saying inbreeding causes problems are just ignorant to the fact, ignorance of genetics causes the problems... its the same as my opinion on cross breeding... we in rabbits have the benefit (unlike dogs and cats) of not having a closed stud book, there is nothing to stop us crossbreeding, i believe very firmly that we should be using this tool to ensure our breeds remain fit, healthy and genetically diverse... there are lots of compatible breeds (for example I regularly cross sables and smoke pearls because the smoke pearl gene pool is so small)


I 100% agree with you. When I was breeding the welsh cobs the ignorance surrounding line(in) breeding is very disappointing.

I think the main issue is many people humanise it all too much :nonod:


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## beckimoorcroft (Jul 31, 2012)

Yep.. and the factors of how species live in the wild... some species (some types of rodent) have evolved to live in closed communities, so inbreeding is the norm for them... where as others travel thousands of miles to ensure they find an unrelated mate... these factors should also be considered when captive breeding programs are devised


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## Hel_79 (Jun 14, 2011)

I think the main issue is many people humanise it all too much :nonod:[/QUOTE]

I'm not professing to have any in-depth knowledge of breeding, but I'm just butting in to agree completely with this statement. Buddy's original owner wanted to breed him and show him/his kits out with zero knowledge of breeding/genetics/rabbit health because they thought it would be fun for them and nice for Buddy. When I took him on I was, apparently, hugely cruel for neutering him because it wasn't 'natural' and we fell out massively over it. Sigh.


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