# Dog Dancing/HTM Whats that all about - please explain



## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

This was brought up on another thread and the thread started to go a little of topic. So I thought, Hey!! start a new thread. 
I believe that dogs dancing is demeaning to dogs and is nothing more than a circus act.
So is it really in the interest of the dog or is it an owner ego thing? And please don't tell me you show your friends, when the opportunity arises.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

It doesn't do it for me. Personally I don't like to see it. I think it is pointless and boring. That is my opinion so please don't all berate me for it. I hate to see dogs walking on their back legs and spinning around. Particularly the spinning can so easily become an obsessive behaviour. I can see that it could be a way of creating a bond with a dog, especially with a problem dog, so that the dog gets to do something right and can make positive associations with the trainer/owner. However I don't think it has relevance to everyday dog life. More of a competitive sport thing.


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

lucylastic said:


> However I don't think it has relevance to everyday dog life. More of a competitive sport thing.


Ofcourse it is not relevant : Why should it be?!! It's just fun


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Hetty said:


> Ofcourse it is not relevant : Why should it be?!! It's just fun


Just like performing circus acts, and that is being slowly outlawed, thank god. As dog trainers have moved away from the Barbara Woodhouse days so people will see this 'sport' for what it truly is, demeaning entertainment for entertainments sake. Whilst they, hopefully, are not physically forced into performing spinning hoops is it ethical to get them to do it. Think back to the ethics of performing monkeys, yea sure, "great fun isn't it hilarious to watch", and then I grew up and gained some ethics. I know I will be in a small minority, but so were animal welfare campaigners at the beginning of their struggle. 
Something that is patently done as entertainment for the glory of an owners ego to win at all costs, can only be wrong.

Soap box rant, and my personal pet hate.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Just have to look at this Video to see that it is pointless and boring. Just look at that poor dogs face, says it all, so boring and pointless.  Dog Dancing - Canine Freestyle


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

Have you not seen the connection and bond between owner and dog? I think its amazing. 
It is nothing more than teaching a variety of cues for tricks. Everyone (ok, nearly everyone) teaches their dog to do a few tricks. It's nothing different.


Infact, grandad.... how do you know your dog enjoys doing a 'sit' or 'down' when you tell them to? Or are your dogs not trained to follow commands or cues??


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

just another attempt by the OP to stir the pot,  in my candid opinion.

even in beginners' classes, it is obvious the dogs are happily engaged & often eager, despite klutzy moments 
by handlers or dogs, or the usual confusion over what a novice is to do... they are thrilled to arrive for class 2, 
impatient to enter the building or the arena, & don't want to leave.  i think that says it all!

as for dogs who excel & their handlers, they *adore* it - the sound of 'their' song playing over a P-A 
system or heard on the radio or TV brings that dog racing to their handler or they jump to their feet, 
staring at the source of the music - they often smile toothily or prance, as i've been there when a score 
that accompanied a routine came on in another context, & i have seen the dogs recognize it with joy.

U can almost hear them say, _'that's our song...' :001_tt1:_


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I do not believe any form of dog training to be "demeaning" provided it is a behaviour the animal would perform normally (so taking a few steps backwards or on hind legs yes, balancing on their heads like circus elephants are forced to do - no.)

Nor do I believe that any one cue is better or more worthy than another.

Realistically - what's the bloomin' difference???

A pet dog really only needs to know two basic cues - remain stationary and come when called. Everything else is superfluous. It doesn't matter if a pet dog sits rather than lays down.

In that sense, virtually ALL cues given to pet dogs are simply "tricks" - and I fail to see how teaching a dog to spin on cue is somehow bad, but teaching a dog to sit on cue is good.

Secondly, humane training is good for animals! It provides an excellent source of mental stimulation (and exercise depending on the exact training concerned), helps to build a fantastic dog-handler bond, is fun, rewarding and enjoyable for both parties, helps to prevent boredom.... all of this in turn also reduces the risk of the dog being affected by behaviour problems.

I like watching heelwork to music, although I doubt I would ever get involved because I can't dance to save my life!


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Makes me cringe


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

I have taught Tilly lots of HTM/freestyle moves, using the clicker. I would NEVER have the confidence to compete or even 'perform' in front of anyone. So it is just for me and Tilly to have fun


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

rona said:


> Makes me cringe


Just wondering does competitive obedience make you cringe?


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Actually yes it does make me cringe.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Tollisty said:


> Just wondering does competitive obedience make you cringe?


No, but then the dogs aren't doing contortions that may impact on their joints at a later stage in their lives


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

but some are made to hold their heads up in n un-natural position, and maintain that position for all the heelwork. You can force a dog to do this (although it is very obvious the dogs that have been!),you can't force a dog to do HTM/freestyle as the judges will mark down a miserable looking dog.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

lucylastic said:


> Actually yes it does make me cringe.


Fair enough


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Tollisty said:


> but some are made to hold their heads up in n un-natural position, and maintain that position for all the heelwork. You can force a dog to do this (although it is very obvious the dogs that have been!),you can't force a dog to do HTM/freestyle as the judges will mark down a miserable looking dog.


But you are talking about cruelty here I'm talking about just the activities. A dog doing heelwork are only doing it for short periods of time and there is no unnatural pressure unlike those dogs that have to jump around upright on their back legs etc. It's just such an unnatural thing for most dogs to do


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## Katieforian (Mar 18, 2011)

Tollisty said:


> I have taught Tilly lots of HTM/freestyle moves, using the clicker. I would NEVER have the confidence to compete or even 'perform' in front of anyone. So it is just for me and Tilly to have fun


Im exactly the same as you, my dog loves doing 'tricks/moves' in our own home, but i think its something that personally he and myself wouldn't enjoy competing in, other dogs and people may love competing and i don't see anything wrong with that, i enjoy watching it, seeing all the 'moves', the strong bond between them, and a most importantly a happy dog having FUN. It's defiantly strengthened our bond and i think hes more obedient for it too. We both really enjoy doing it, he is always very eager to learn and his tail doesn't stop wagging. If i ever come against a trick i don't think he enjoys doing then i wouldn't force him to do it. My nieces and nephews (two of which are nervous of dogs) will also do a bit with him and they love it, it's improved there confidence with dogs no end. 
I can understand people looking at it for the first time and thinking that it's like a dog equivalent to a circus act, but when you think deeper into it it's certainly not the case in my opinion. What's the harm if your both having fun?


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

rona said:


> .......unlike those dogs that have to jump around upright on their back legs etc. It's just such an unnatural thing for most dogs to do


Half the small dogs in the world walk on their hind legs on the lead in order to get somewhere they like to, loads of dogs stand on their hind legs to look over the fence. Nothing unnatural about it........

In fact all things we teach dogs are not perse natural. If you want that then dogs should be free to run around and do as they please, pee up your trousers etc.  That is what lots of dogs would like to do. The dogs that come to dog school because they are out of control? Not at all out of control, they just never been trained and do what the hell they like. Not a bad life at all I would say. But are those dogs happier than mine who walks on his hind legs occasionally when I ask him to, or even without me prompting him in any way? Are they healthier? I sincerely doubt that!

One of my dogs does hand stands as well (not the other ones as they do not have the right built for it). I taught her that with the clicker. Funny thing was, that she was playing in the garden with the other dogs and doing this move all by herself. Still do not know why and think she was just practising....Oh is the handstand an unnatural move? No don't think so! I had a dog in the '80's that did it when she had to wee and see often smaller dogs do it as it makes their scent come higher when they wee. So a very functional move.

Anyway people just try to stir things up a bit I think.....in the mean time I'll just keep having fun with my dogs!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I think some people are putting human emotions onto dogs when they talk about it being demeaning. If you think it is demeaning to a dog to teach him heelwork to music moves, then you also have to accept that it is demeaning to a dog to teach him to sit or stay. From the dog's point of view, there is no difference. Sit, stay, twirl, stand on your hind legs - they are all things they have learned to do to please their owner. It's only human beings who think there is a difference and feel uncomfortable. The dog is merely enjoying himself.


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## Katieforian (Mar 18, 2011)

Grandad - I dont know what dog/s you own, but can I ask how do you keep your dog mental stimulated? Mine is from a working line and really needs mental exercise every day, its as important as physical exercise for him, if he didnt have mental stimulation we would have a very frustrated dog who behaved badly. The way I look at it is, would you be happy every day laying around doing nothing other than having a walk? It might be relaxing at first but you would miss having your brain worked and would end up getting frustrated and agitated. Things like HTM, agility etc. is a way of having fun while getting that mental stimulation.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> From the dog's point of view, there is no difference. Sit, stay, twirl, stand on your hind legs - they are all things they have learned to do to please their owner


Well some of those moves, are very similar to what my untrained as trick dog just does, to please himself. I end up putting them on cue to use as functional rewards, rather than blame my dog for having behavioural problems.

I guess I should ask him if he's stressed by his next counter surfing exploit. Or what about these dogs undoing door latches and such to let themselves out (self taught according to owner) YouTube - the great escape - border collies


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Grandad as you started this thread and one about what you think of agility, can i ask do you own dogs? if so what do you do with them for fun?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Hetty said:


> In fact all things we teach dogs are not, per se, natural. If you want that, then dogs should be free to run around
> & do as they please, pee up your trousers etc.  That is what lots of dogs would like to do. The dogs that come to dog school
> because they are out of control? Not at all out of control, they just never been trained and do what the hell they like.
> Not a bad life at all I would say.
> ...


Brava! :thumbup:

sleeping on sofas is not 'natural', either - nor is sleeping with the cat, walking on a loose leash, 
keeping pace with their handler, *herding* sheep - chasing is natural, herding them on cue is *not.*


Hetty said:


> ...people just try to stir things up a bit, I think... in the meantime, I'll just keep having fun with my dogs!


 yes - poking with sticks to see what flies up.

i'll bet Ur dogs love their fun-times - do U have any videos?


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

I shall crawl back to dog chat and health then and not have an opinion on here 
I thought forums were for conversations and opinions not forcing a few people beliefs down peoples throats


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## Katieforian (Mar 18, 2011)

rona said:


> I shall crawl back to dog chat and health then and not have an opinion on here
> I thought forums were for conversations and opinions not forcing a few people beliefs down peoples throats


I personally don't see anyone thats 'forced beliefs down peoples throats' people have just explained why they believe its not cruel etc. I myself respect everyones opinion and reasons for it even if its something i dont believe myself i respect them enough to try and see it from there point of view. I always try to explain why i believe what i do and try not to disrespect anyone in the process, but if i did i'd be the first to apologise. There is always going to be things that people disagree on, be it online or in real life.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Colette said:


> I do not believe any form of dog training to be "demeaning" provided it is a behaviour the animal would perform normally (so taking a few steps backwards or on hind legs yes, balancing on their heads like circus elephants are forced to do - no.)
> 
> Nor do I believe that any one cue is better or more worthy than another.
> 
> ...


1, is entertainment and 2, one is self control and good manners


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

rona said:


> But you are talking about cruelty here I'm talking about just the activities. A dog doing heelwork are only doing it for short periods of time and there is no unnatural pressure unlike those dogs that have to jump around upright on their back legs etc. *It's just such an unnatural thing for most dogs to do*




I Agree with yo u, it's not natural


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Hetty said:


> Half the small dogs in the world walk on their hind legs on the lead in order to get somewhere they like to, loads of dogs stand on their hind legs to look over the fence. Nothing unnatural about it........
> 
> In fact all things we teach dogs are not perse natural. If you want that then dogs should be free to run around and do as they please, pee up your trousers etc.  That is what lots of dogs would like to do. The dogs that come to dog school because they are out of control? Not at all out of control, they just never been trained and do what the hell they like. Not a bad life at all I would say. But are those dogs happier than mine who walks on his hind legs occasionally when I ask him to, or even without me prompting him in any way? Are they healthier? I sincerely doubt that!
> 
> ...


Wha tplanet are you on. I've had dogs for over 30 years and not once have they done a handstand, to music or for a pee. Or walked on their hind legs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> I shall crawl back to dog chat and health then and not have an opinion on here
> I thought forums were for conversations and opinions not forcing a few people beliefs down peoples throats


aww, poor beaten broken creetur :crying: please stand up & stop whining.

opinions are fine - as Rob-D already pointed out, the *original poster* is trolling. 
she or he or they just love tempests in a teapot, & when nothing thrilling is going on, 
then it is apparently time  to stir something up for their personal amusement.

no-one that i saw has insulted or belittled U - several ppl, myself included, 
are questioning the OP's motives for this thread & the oddly similar 'agility' thread.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> aww, poor beaten broken creetur :crying: please stand up & stop whining.
> 
> opinions are fine - as Rob-D already pointed out, the *original poster* is trolling.
> she or he or they just love tempests in a teapot, & when nothing thrilling is going on,
> ...


My opinion is that they aren't trolling, they just have a different view point


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Brava! :thumbup:
> 
> sleeping on sofas is not 'natural', either - nor is sleeping with the cat, walking on a loose leash,
> keeping pace with their handler, *herding* sheep - chasing is natural, herding them on cue is *not.*
> ...


She'll have load sof video's. she earns a living by have dogs "PERFORM" circus tricks. You to could earn aliving by putting together a freak show involving animals. Let me think now........................I know, lets try goldfish. 
This is BS and you know it.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

hazel pritchard said:


> Grandad as you started this thread and one about what you think of agility, can i ask do you own dogs? if so what do you do with them for fun?


Yes I own dogs and I treat them with respect. Fun for my dogs is doing what comes naturally. 
They are well mannered, socialable and friendly. Won awards in good citizeship, trials and tests, been put forward for PATS and I'm trying to get them on the detecting cancer project.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I had my say on the other thread about dancing dogs but can i just say my "poor" spaniel gets just a "walk" every day, rest of the time he is chilled or mooching about with me or the kids watching our life unfold. 

I honestly dont feel the need to "compete" with him in any way, he is neither bored nor frustrated and doesn't need additional stimulation. Sorry but i do believe in some cases you can "over stimulate" a dog.

I did honestly think that one of the reasons people fought to get animals removed from circuses was because of the fact it was considered wrong to train animals this way and Dancing Dogs were always high up on the billing. Now we may have come a LONG way in how we train these performances but maybe thats why it makes some of us (myself included) cringe a bit  Sorry Guys but it does


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Well some of those moves, are very similar to what my untrained as trick dog just does, to please himself. I end up putting them on cue to use as functional rewards, rather than blame my dog for having behavioural problems.
> 
> I guess I should ask him if he's stressed by his next counter surfing exploit. Or what about these dogs undoing door latches and such to let themselves out (self taught according to owner) YouTube - the great escape - border collies


Please enlighten us, to the untrained trick that you put on cue. i am interested to know.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> aww, poor beaten broken creetur :crying: please stand up & stop whining.
> 
> opinions are fine - as Rob-D already pointed out, the *original poster* is trolling.
> she or he or they just love tempests in a teapot, & when nothing thrilling is going on,
> ...


Is it time to roll out the play ground bullies again. If you don't like the thread BUTT OUT.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

grandad said:


> Yes I own dogs and I treat them with respect. Fun for my dogs is doing what comes naturally.
> They are well mannered, socialable and friendly. Won awards in good citizeship, trials and tests, been put forward for PATS and I'm trying to get them on the detecting cancer project.


Are you saying that because i go to agility with my dog i dont treat him with respect????
If so you should come see him then and i know for sure you will "eat your words" !!!! i arrive at agility with him, open the car,then his crate and off he goes at speed towards the agility ring, hes dragging me , not the other way round, my dog is friendly ,sociable as well , not bad for a dog that was found in a box on the street as a puppy


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

hazel pritchard said:


> Are you saying that because i go to agility with my dog i dont treat him with respect????
> If so you should come see him then and i know for sure you will "eat your words" !!!! i arrive at agility with him, open the car,then his crate and off he goes at speed towards the agility ring, hes dragging me , not the other way round, my dog is friendly ,sociable as well , not bad for a dog that was found in a box on the street as a puppy


You asked me about my dogs and I gave you the answer. But I see you cannot get your dog to walk to heel from the car to the agility ring. My dogs don't leave the car until invited to do so. It's called "good manners"


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> I shall crawl back to dog chat and health then and not have an opinion on here
> I thought forums were for conversations and opinions not forcing a few people beliefs down peoples throats


That comment is a bit unfair Rona. I don't think anyone is pushing their opinions down anyone's throats - just people putting arguments for and against HTM. That's what a debate is supposed to be, surely?


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> That comment is a bit unfair Rona. I don't think anyone is pushing their opinions down anyone's throats - just people putting arguments for and against HTM. That's what a debate is supposed to be, surely?


It's the attacks on the OP which I'm really annoyed about.
You know me, I'm usually pretty laid back, but I find the incessant attacks quite bad, and when the OP retaliates they get slammed as being the trouble maker


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

rona said:


> It's the attacks on the OP which I'm really annoyed about.
> You know me, I'm usually pretty laid back, but I find the incessant attacks quite bad, and when the OP retaliates they get slammed as being the trouble maker


Totally agree. Why can't we just discuss without the anger and insults, and accept that people with different opinions are not necessarily wrong.


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## Katieforian (Mar 18, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I had my say on the other thread about dancing dogs but can i just say my "poor" spaniel gets just a "walk" every day, rest of the time he is chilled or mooching about with me or the kids watching our life unfold.
> 
> I honestly dont feel the need to "compete" with him in any way, he is neither bored nor frustrated and doesn't need additional stimulation. Sorry but i do believe in some cases you can "over stimulate" a dog.
> 
> I did honestly think that one of the reasons people fought to get animals removed from circuses was because of the fact it was considered wrong to train animals this way and Dancing Dogs were always high up on the billing. Now we may have come a LONG way in how we train these performances but maybe thats why it makes some of us (myself included) cringe a bit  Sorry Guys but it does


I understand where your coming from and thats exactly what i used to do with my previous dog and he was still a happy boy, i think it is individual, it depends a lot on there breed, temperament, energy levels. Where my other dog was happy to do that my one now isnt, if I didnt do training with him he would be barking all the time, jumping around the furniture, chewing things. It was actually when I brought in a trainer because I couldnt control his behaviour she said that he was acting that way because he needs a lot of mental stimulation and suggested doing tricks with him, granted we dont do them to music but it wouldnt be hard to put together his tricks with music. Like I said I dont compete with him, its just for me and him really however I have no problem with people who do, they and their dogs put a lot of effort into training and enjoy it, I dont see it being wrong to show people what you have learnt together after all the hard work. I can only go off my experiences and if I didnt do training (which is most of the HTM moves) with my dog everyday then I doubt id be able to keep him as he would be out of control, he is completely different to any dog I have owned and if its what he needs and what keeps him happy and calm then I think it is good for him.


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

Really what is all the fuss about?

If someone wants to teach their dog some fancy tricks then good for them, nothing wrong with strenghthening the bond between you and your dog. If you feel you are good enough to compete and want to show your dog i cant see it being any different to crufts.

If its not your cup of tea then fair enough.

No point starting a thread looking for a debate because there is never a good outcome in relations & the thread ends up getting closed!

Whats the point?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

lucylastic said:


> Totally agree. Why can't we just discuss without the anger and insults, and accept that people with different opinions are not necessarily wrong.


if you post a thread and your not one of LFL's playgorund bullies your a "troll" even if you are genuinley interested in the way other people treat and train their dogs. if your for it............you can join the group. if your against it........look out, they'll be after you. 
you just have to take it in your stride. I notice however that the usual video's and references to "alleged" professionals and "learned" folk is not forthcoming.


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## Statler (Jan 3, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> aww, poor beaten broken creetur :crying: please stand up & stop whining.
> 
> opinions are fine - as Rob-D already pointed out, the *original poster* is trolling.
> she or he or they just love tempests in a teapot, & when nothing thrilling is going on,
> ...


competition for your job then :tongue_smilie:


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

beagleweiler said:


> Really what is all the fuss about?
> 
> If someone wants to teach their dog some fancy tricks then good for them, nothing wrong with strenghthening the bond between you and your dog. If you feel you are good enough to compete and want to show your dog i cant see it being any different to crufts.
> 
> ...


The points is.......or the debate is...............is it unatural or natural and if you do dog dancing/HTM why do you do it? please explain why you do it.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

grandad said:


> if you post a thread and your not one of LFL's playgorund bullies your a "troll" even if you are genuinley interested in the way other people treat and train their dogs. if your for it............you can join the group. if your against it........look out, they'll be after you.
> you just have to take it in your stride. I notice however that the usual video's and references to "alleged" professionals and "learned" folk is not forthcoming.


Must say i have disagreed with LFL and still lived to tell the tale. Don't feel i have to join a group to have an opinion either 

There is room for opinion on here you just have to Keep Calm and Carry On


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

grandad said:


> The points is.......or the debate is...............is it unatural or natural and if you do dog dancing/HTM why do you do it? please explain why you do it.


I have to say wether these are contentious questions or not they are valid and IMO a good basis for a debate 

DEBATE being an exchange of views with no winners or losers


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> Must say i have disagreed with LFL and still lived to tell the tale. Don't feel i have to join a group to have an opinion either
> 
> There is room for opinion on here you just have to Keep Calm and Carry On


Hard as it is sometimes


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

This morning I attended my 6 year olds philosophy lesson. 20 6 year olds sat in a circle, debating whether they should 'go to bed when they like'. And do you know what? They discussed, put their valid points across with no arguing, mud slinging, name calling and blah blah blah!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

gorgeous said:


> This morning I attended my 6 year olds philosophy lesson. 20 6 year olds sat in a circle, debating whether they should 'go to bed when they like'. And do you know what? They discussed, put their valid points across with no arguing, mud slinging, name calling and blah blah blah!


   

They put us "grown ups" to shame


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

so natural or un natural positions? I have an 11 yr old maltese that has never been trained for anything, just a pet but she walks on hind legs to make herself taller, never taught. She also does a natural handstand when she pee's so she can pee higher up! These are all positions she does without having any for of training and without any cue's. I also have a kelpie that stands up and walks this has not been trained, he also runs backwards and prefers to jump onto items as he find being high up an advantage! These are all natural positions, he also lifts his hind leg to pee


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> This morning I attended my 6 year olds philosophy lesson. 20 6 year olds sat in a circle, debating whether they should 'go to bed when they like'. And do you know what? They discussed, put their valid points across with no arguing, mud slinging, name calling and blah blah blah!


And I bet, not one of them tried to change the discussion to something else.


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

grandad said:


> Wha tplanet are you on. I've had dogs for over 30 years and not once have they done a handstand, to music or for a pee. Or walked on their hind legs.


Sounds like you cant accept what other people say either. Maybe your dogs dont do it, it doesnt mean it doesnt happen.

My beagle walks on her hind legs, did i teach her that? no i didnt so does that mean its unatural?

If it was all that cruel wouldnt it be illegal?

Like i said some people are into it others are not.

Im not into showing dogs, maybe i should start a debate thread......... oh no hang on, its just pointless.

You clearly think its cruel & demeaning so your mind is made up.


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> They put us "grown ups" to shame


You are right Rainy, we could learn a lot from our kids!



grandad said:


> And I bet, not one of them tried to change the discussion to something else.


No, the kids were totally focussed and also listened to their classmates opinions and did not put them down for their opinions either!

(btw my dd was very good at giving her opinion - made my day)


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

rona said:


> It's the attacks on the OP which I'm really annoyed about.
> You know me, I'm usually pretty laid back, but I find the incessant attacks quite bad, and when the OP retaliates they get slammed as being the trouble maker


Hmmm. The OP's original post in this thread deliberately used negative emotive language to describe an activity enjoyed by many. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what he wanted to do. But he must then accept the blame for people replying in the same vein - ie he opened with an attack, so people attack back.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

beagleweiler said:


> Sounds like you cant accept what other people say either. Maybe your dogs dont do it, it doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
> 
> My beagle walks on her hind legs, did i teach her that? no i didnt so does that mean its unatural?
> 
> ...


But people have started debates on here about the showing world and they have provided real insight into why people love it and what drives them to do it. It can be very educational.

In debate you are very unlikely to change a persons viewpoint but the idea of debate is to gain a greater undertanding surely rather than trying to "win" ?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

beagleweiler said:


> Sounds like you cant accept what other people say either. Maybe your dogs dont do it, it doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
> 
> My beagle walks on her hind legs, did i teach her that? no i didnt so does that mean its unatural?
> 
> ...


OK, I've never sen it, but take your word for it


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Hmmm. The OP's original post in this thread deliberately used negative emotive language to describe an activity enjoyed by many. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what he wanted to do. But he must then accept the blame for people replying in the same vein - ie he opened with an attack, so people attack back.


Hardly attacked minded when asking for an explanation of why people do it, especially when i said PLEASE


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> But people have started debates on here about the showing world and they have provided real insight into why people love it and what drives them to do it. It can be very educational.
> 
> In debate you are very unlikely to change a persons viewpoint but the idea of debate is to gain a greater undertanding surely rather than trying to "win" ?


Ok maybe "debate" was the wrong word to use.

Clearly from the first post it was just an attack.

I have nothing against showing dogs & i can understand why people want to show off their breed standard etc, i was trying to make the point that it doesnt float my boat so no point me starting a pointless thread attacking "showing dogs" from the start.

A disscussion & this thread are worlds apart.


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

grandad said:


> OK, I've never sen it, but take your word for it


Righto Grandad :thumbsup:


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Hmmm. The OP's original post in this thread deliberately used negative emotive language to describe an activity enjoyed by many. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what he wanted to do. But he must then accept the blame for people replying in the same vein - ie he opened with an attack, so people attack back.


Exactly this.

Hang on though, he did say please. This changes everything.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

beagleweiler said:


> Ok maybe "debate" was the wrong word to use.
> 
> Clearly from the first post it was just an attack.
> 
> ...


you would know, your way of base


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Have we actually got to the stage where we are debating wether this is a debate


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

beagleweiler said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> Hang on though, he did say please. This changes everything.


Not with you.

Fact. I see a badly run agility class. 
Fact. I ask the question how is this good for dogs. 
Fact. I wouldn't take my dog there or would i reccomend it. 
Waht's it all about, Please explain.


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

grandad said:


> This was brought up on another thread and the thread started to go a little of topic. So I thought, Hey!! start a new thread.
> I believe that dogs dancing is demeaning to dogs and is nothing more than a circus act.
> So is it really in the interest of the dog or is it an owner ego thing? And please don't tell me you show your friends, when the opportunity arises.


You believe that Dog dancing is demeaning and nothing more than a circus act, fair enough.

You asked who's best interest was at heart, fair enough.

Views were aired, fair enough.

You cant accept the views and incinuate that someone is not on this planet because you youself have not seen a dog on its hind legs even after over 30 years of dog ownership.

So the outcome is you cant accept it.

Move on gramps  I have


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

beagleweiler said:


> You believe that Dog dancing is demeaning and nothing more than a circus act, fair enough.
> 
> You asked who's best interest was at heart, fair enough.
> 
> ...


I think you'll find i did accept the ladies view. Can you please be a bit more personal in your jibes.


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

Struggling to find the post where you have accepted anyones views 

Sorry grandad, force of habit  (i call my grandad gramps) He seems to like it though.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I had my say on the other thread about dancing dogs but can i just say my "poor" spaniel
> gets just a "walk" every day, rest of the time he is chilled or mooching about with me or the kids watching our life unfold.


that's fine :001_smile: other ppl want to do something more active or more challenging with their dogs.


RAINYBOW said:


> I honestly dont feel the need to "compete" with him... he is neither bored nor frustrated & doesn't need
> additional stimulation. Sorry but i do believe in some cases you can "over stimulate" a dog.


who said that U had to compete? :huh: plenty of folks do freestyle or H-T-M & never compete at all. 
they just enjoy it, no different than playing fetch with the dog in the fenced garden for 10-minutes.

i think it's *great* that folks have loads of options for dog-activities that did not even exist 
when i began training my first puppy in the mid-60s as a child; if i was in 4-H now, O-M-DoG, 
i would love to have my then-pup in agility, & he would have adored it, or freestyle or both! :thumbup:

i know many local-folks whose dogs go swimming in surf, jog by their bikes, jog with the owner, hike & backpack, 
go camping with the family, go on their car-trip vacations, and so on - *how active* & *which activities* 
are entirely up to the owner & the dog - how fit they both are, what they like, & so on.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I've never specifically trained HTM I do have a book written by Mary Rae that tells you how to train many of the moves through clicker training explains free-shaping etc. Buster loves learning those tricks I'll find the video I did of him doing some commands tail wagging, enthusiastic bouncing. Why would I stop teaching him things he clearly enjoys just because some people seem to find it demeaning. I see nothing wrong with HTM as long as the dog enjoys it and they're trained kindly the majority of HTM dogs are clicker trained

And he does a handstand to pee even on grass has done since he first started cocking his leg. It is a natural behaviour in a lot of dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Spellweaver
> 
> Hmmm. The OP's original post in this thread deliberately used negative emotive language to describe an activity
> enjoyed by many. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what he wanted to do. But he must then accept the blame
> for people replying in the same vein - i-e, he opened with an attack, so people attack back.


heartily agree. 


beagleweiler said:


> Exactly this.
> Hang on though, he did say please. This changes everything.


[gasp...] :blink: B-W! what shocking cynicism & how wicked - _sarcasm_, no less. 
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. :lol: :thumbup: :lol: :001_tt2: :lol:


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*This was brought up on another thread and the thread started to go a little of topic. So I thought, Hey!! start a new thread. 
I believe that dogs dancing is demeaning to dogs and is nothing more than a circus act.
So is it really in the interest of the dog or is it an owner ego thing? And please don't tell me you show your friends, when the opportunity arises.*

Well I'll try and tell you what its all about Grandad and how it started in the UK.

The first competition was at Ryton on Dunsmore, hosted by Rugby Dog Training Club, in 1996. Prior to that Mary Ray had been asked to do a heelwork display to music and it was so well received that they decided to introduce it as a competition.

Initially HTM was just that 'heelwork to music' with a few moves like weaving between the handlers legs.

It has never been called doggie dancing but there are now two separate sections - Heelwork to Music and Freestyle.

I personally don't think it is demeaning to the dogs but anything competitive is, up to a point, an ego trip for the participants whether it be football, ballroom dancing, flower shows, etc. etc.

Dogs are not the only creatures that perform routines to music - dressage horses have been doing it for many years.


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> heartily agree.
> 
> [gasp...] :blink: B-W! what shocking cynicism & how wicked - _sarcasm_, no less.
> .
> ...


If you dont laugh you'll cry :tongue_smilie:


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

grandad said:


> She'll have load sof video's. she earns a living by have dogs "PERFORM" circus tricks. You to could earn aliving by putting together a freak show involving animals. Let me think now........................I know, lets try goldfish.
> This is BS and you know it.


I do have some videos but not loads, but anyone that is interested can have a look at my youtube page, but have to warn you that there are also videos on there of a horse doing "unnatural things" and a sheep as well, so do not look if you can not cope with that

my youtube channel

I earn my living as a vet, acupuncturist and have a dog school where dogs learn pet dog obedience. We also do agility classes and the occasional workshop. I do also teach all over Europe for freestyle/HtM and obedience for competitive people. Occasionally I do demos with my dogs when we are invited and I do not get paid for them other than my travel expenses, as I just like to do it for a bit of fun and my dog enjoys it.

And now you mention the gold fish.....you can train them very well using clicker training as well : Gold fish agility & tricks Oh dear, it's very unnatural behaviour again, poor poor fish!!!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm half expecting a dressage thread to pop up now about how unnatural that is and how it's just a circus act. That came out of training for war horses didn't it?

Any animal can be clicker trained some of the videos with fish are very impressive


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> It has never been called doggie dancing but there are now two separate sections - Heelwork to Music and Freestyle.


It is called that in the rest of Europe unfortunately, as it is not the right name for it....dogs don't dance.....


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*I'm half expecting a dressage thread to pop up now about how unnatural that is and how it's just a circus act. That came out of training for war horses didn't it?*

Yes it did and also why 3 day events start with dressage to show that the horses are 'obedient' before they compete in the other phases.

Competitive obedience also evolved from the military/police dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Buster... does a handstand to pee, even on grass; has done since he first started cocking his leg.
> It is a natural behaviour in a lot of dogs.


yes, it arises spontaneously. how many would ya like?...  
YouTube - handstand pee, dog

note that styles change from dog to dog, some back-walk up a tree, some stand beside the vertical & lift 
their butt, some merely levitate the rear, legs & all, & stand on their braced forelegs like the female Shiba. 
some *walk along * on their forelegs while still sprinkling, usually on grass, but some do this 
even on paving - streets, sidewalks, etc.

some owner queries, articles & opinions - 
http://tinyurl.com/3h8c3l6


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

Hetty said:


> I earn my living as a vet, acupuncturist and have a dog school where dogs learn pet dog obedience. We also do agility classes and the occasional workshop.


This is a bit off topic but im sure no one will complain too much, where abouts in Lincolnshire is your dog school, its something i would be interested in for some extra curricular with my Beagle? I live in Lincolnshire too, the bottom end.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> *I'm half expecting a dressage thread to pop up now about how unnatural that is and how it's just a circus act. That came out of training for war horses didn't it?*
> 
> Yes it did and also why 3 day events start with dressage to show that the horses are 'obedient' before they compete in the other phases.
> 
> Competitive obedience also evolved from the military/police dogs.


Dress it up how you like, It's still not right and the animal's never asked for it.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

This could apply to HTM as well as agility, I wonder how many owners know all the stress factors and can recognise them in their dogs? 


According to veterinary behaviourist Karen Overall, anxiety-related disorders are probably the most common class of disorders in dogs. Furthermore, it is my view that we as simple dog owners are not properly educated in this matter of stress and, therefore, are not helping our canine companions reach their full potential. 

The intent here is not to attribute human characteristics to our dogs. Skinner said simply, 'It is impossible to know what an animal or another person is thinking. All we have to go on are the visible physical signs of what we call 'stress' and how the dog performs with these symptoms present. At this point in science, we cannot say what the animal is 'thinking.'

Rather it is my objective to come up with a comprehensive list of signs and causes of stress in the dog. I will discuss the effects stress has on behaviour and explore a variety of methods to treat and prevent the stress response, thus improving performance in our canine athletes and companions.

Signs of stress
Based upon past observation of dogs at agility competitions, I venture to say well over half exhibited various signs of stress. The severe cases involved dogs leaving the ring without their handlers. Many of these handlers thought their dog was 'just being bad,' but in fact, the dog was reacting as he would to any negative re-inforcer. Escape the pressure and find something else more positively reinforcing to do.

Recognising the signs of stress is the first step in understanding a dog&#8217;s behaviour. All too often, dogs can be found in a class or a dog park who are, unbeknownst to their owners, totally stressed out. While it is impossible to measure actual canine thoughts, it is possible to measure visible external stressors such as a change in environment. This, in turn, makes it possible to measure the effects of these external stressors by noting the dog&#8217;s response to them. In a laboratory environment, we could go much further and record heart rate, blood pressure, hormone levels, brain waves etc., but that is beyond the scope of this essay.

Some of the signs of stress are as follows: panting, yawning, scratching, licking, staring, dilated pupils, blinking, avoiding eye contact, tucked tail, low and slow wagging tail, shaking, salivating, whining, barking, diarrhea, sniffing, sudden onset of dandruff, shedding, muscle tension, hypersensitivity, increased reactivity, zooming around the ring, general restlessness, or avoidance of handler. Most of these signs could be observed any given day at an agility trial.

Stress, anxiety and excitement can increase a human&#8217;s body temperature causing the need to engage the cooling mechanisms. The result is sweating. Dogs are also susceptible to this phenomenon, but they sweat through the pads of their feet and their mouths. Hence, the wet paw prints on the floor.

Yet another great window to emotions is the tail. A tucked tail can mean mental discomfort, while a slow wagging tail can be translated as insecurity, uncertainty, or indecision. Licking is a complex signal that can sometimes be interpreted as a sign of tension. Some stressed dogs appear to be licking the air and do not seem to be 'aiming' at any person or thing. This dog may lick his lips or even begin licking his own body (Coren, 2000). 

Yet another important sign of stress, which I am personally very painfully aware of, is avoidance. Avoidance of eye contact is a real problem when trying to gain a dogs attention or otherwise communicate with him. A stressed out dog will have difficulty in focusing on you and the task at hand. This lack of focus can cause a delayed response, which can mean the difference between a clean run and elimination. In agility this dog will be slower off the mark and slower in completing the obstacles for an overall slower time. If the dog is avoiding you and eye contact with you, these delays are inevitable. The breaking of eye contact is a sign of submission and perhaps fear and anxiety in this case.

Some dogs become over-aroused when under performance pressure. Their pupils will become dilated and they appear to be 'out of it.' This could be an example of Pavlov&#8217;s 'excitable' animal vs. the 'inhibited' animal. Scott and Fuller expounded upon Pavlov&#8217;s theory and identified the passive dog and the dog that tries to escape. Within this class they found enormous variability. The 'excitable' dog may bark and whine constantly or race about wildly which in turn lead to inconsistent performance and a loss of control. On the other hand, the 'inhibited' dog will shut down, leave the ring, stress sniff or find some other way to avoid the pressure. Both types of dogs, though displaying their stress in different ways, are equally counterproductive (Steinker, 2000). This results in a large problem in the agility dog where speed, accuracy and timing are the name of the game. 

Causes and effects
It is my belief that the underlying primary cause of stress is lack of socialisation. Jean Donaldson defines socialisation as 'a term which means habituation or getting used to environmental elements through exposure.' (CC p 60) Without proper socialisation a dog may display all of the aforementioned signs of stress when thrown into a new environment. We should not, therefore, expect an improperly socialised dog to perform at his peak in the face of new stimuli.

A lack of socialisation can lead to many excuses as to why the dog performs poorly. Some say that the dog is 'unforgiving' or 'soft'. This implies that the dog does not forget, recover from or move on from unpleasant experiences (Jones 2001). Another excuse might describe a dog as having an over-active 'fight or flight' response. While this may be true to a certain extent, it is still a product of lack of socialisation. 

Another common comment is 'Why can&#8217;t my dog just act like he does at home?' To answer this, when everything in the trial environment, including the handler, is vastly different from the friendlier training environment, there is suddenly a breakdown in performance. This breakdown is due to stress, which is caused by lack of socialisation to these stimuli. This level of stimulation was probably never experienced prior to the dogs&#8217; debut. Good indicators of an unfinished training/socialisation process are all of the aforementioned signs of stress.

While lack of socialisation may be the primary cause of stress, it is not the only one. Other causes might include:

Poor training or training style 
Handler pressure 
Fatigue 
Genetics. 
Poor training is related to lack of socialisation, much of which is accomplished unbeknownst to the trainer. Since dogs are innocent subjects of learning laws, and since behaviour is under the control of its consequences, we can manipulate consequences to control behaviour in training. For example, we inadvertently train our dogs to behave a certain way under these circumstances: start line, show ring, obedience class, etc. We are quite proficient at unintentionally classically conditioning a ring-wise dog. 

Stress can be attributed to another training problem, which is lack of feedback from the handler. This decreases motivation and helps the behaviour along the road to extinction rather than fluency (Duford, 2001). Poor trainers often expect too much from their dogs too soon by asking them to perform under pressure prematurely. Since training is not allowed in the competition ring, behaviour goes unreinforced, which equates to a lack of feedback from the handler. As a result, the dog quickly learns that in a trial environment, there are no consequences for his behaviours and the stress level increases as a result of confusion. Performance often deteriorates immediately or over a series of successive trials. 

Fatigue should also be avoided, as this is another cause of stress. It is important to stop training while the dog is still enjoying the behaviour and the rate of response is high. (Donaldson, 1998)

Social pressure is yet another influence on dog behaviour. Our dogs are classically conditioned to understand what our complicated body language means. Our body language and attitude have a colossal effect on our dog&#8217;s stress level. When we suddenly transform into yelling, tense, and waving monsters while under our own pressures, the effects on our dogs are painfully obvious (Duford 2001). We must fix our own behaviour before we can change the dogs.

Training style is a likely cause of increased stress in dogs. In a study on training tests by Scott and Fuller, results indicate that the expression of any one ability is highly dependent on the training method used (1965). Suzanne Clothier puts it well '&#8230;any method which incorporates fear, confusion, or aggression from the handler is not conducive to learning, curiosity, enjoyment, trust and cooperation (1996)'.

In a pioneer study on genetics and the social behaviour of dogs, researchers found that different breed groups responded to training pressure in different ways. A link was also found between emotional, or stressed, behaviour and heredity. Furthermore, different emotional behaviours were discovered to form a prominent part of the characteristic behaviour of breeds and individuals. (Scott & Fuller, 1965)

About the author...
Audrey Ferrel has been training animals since she was a child. She grew up around horses and dogs and began teaching riding and horsemanship at a very early age through the United States Pony Club.

Audrey attended Virginia Tech where she earned a B.S. degree in Animal Science in 1997. (Go Hokies!) While still in school, I accepted a job training explosives detection dogs through Galaxy Scientific Corporation. This marked the beginning of my dog-training career, and ever since I have been schooled in the art of reinforcement trainng. She found herself, and her passion, in the world of animal behaviour

Her behaviour studies include attending multiple seminars and workshops as well as furthering my education in psychology at the University of South Carolina. In 1998 she became a professional member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT), which is an organisation that promotes continuing the education of trainers in humane and positive training techniques. 1998 also marks the inception of BBDT in Beaufort, SC. While there she treated many behaviour problems referred by veterinarians including many types of aggression, anxiety issues, house training problems and various other general behavioural issues. She worked with Cloma Calm in co-operation with several local vets. On most weekdays and some weekends, you could find me conducting phone and email consultations, private and group sessions, or traveling all over the Lowcountry seeing dogs of all shapes and sizes.


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

Do your dogs Grandad ask you to blow a whistle at close rang? This is all getting a little silly now! and is it stress for them to be well mannered at all times? what methods do you use to achieve this? does it casue any stress?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - bunny show jumping

YouTube - cat agility

YouTube - clicker sheep 
IMO the best part of this one is the camera-nik laughing hysterically

last but not least, my buddy & fellow-trainer *kath charlton* in the UK, 
with her amazing retrieving donkey & steppingstone dogs... 
YouTube - Donkey: Squeaky Toy Retrieve OVER ditch & wood!!

YouTube - MultiAnimalcrackers's Channel 
one of her dogs learnt to cross a cattle-guard by watching humans do that. 
Bertie also hula-hoops.  [Bertie is the donkey, who is not yet 12-MO.]


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

This cat even has a trick dog (er cat) title  and it only has three legs:
YouTube - Tripawed going for his novice trick dog title

And another poor tortured demeaned cat

YouTube - World&#39;s Smartest Cat Performs Amazing Tricks!


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

grandad said:


> Some of the signs of stress are as follows: panting, yawning, scratching, licking, staring, dilated pupils, blinking, avoiding eye contact, tucked tail, low and slow wagging tail, shaking, salivating, whining, barking, diarrhea, sniffing, sudden onset of dandruff, shedding, muscle tension, hypersensitivity, increased reactivity, zooming around the ring, general restlessness, or avoidance of handler. Most of these signs could be observed any given day at an agility trial.


Im sure most dog owners know of these basic signs & wouldnt participate any further in such activities if they saw it to be stressing the dog out.

Most dogs though love doing activities with their owners & the signs of a happy dog are clearly visible.

The dog isnt being forced into crippiling positions, what dog would put themself in a position that was uncomfortable?

You make it sound like the dogs are being beaten into something they dont want to do when really its something they enjoy & get rewarded for with a treat at the end of it.

Competition is certainly a human ego thing but so are most things in life that we do but its not harming the dog.

My opinion is you are going way too far overboard on this, its not exactly a sport like dog fighting is it?

Well done on the ability to use Google, cut and paste.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

This was for the other thread but as it's temporarily closed and it took me ages to find these I will post them here 

http://www.revmedvet.com/2010/RMV161_307_313.pdf

Elsevier

Veterinary Orthopedic Society 2010
The relevant bit on this one is at the bottom of the article


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> Some of the signs of stress are as follows: panting, yawning, scratching, licking, staring, dilated pupils, blinking, avoiding eye contact, tucked tail, low and slow wagging tail, shaking, salivating, whining, barking, diarrhea, sniffing, sudden onset of dandruff, shedding, muscle tension, hypersensitivity, increased reactivity, zooming around the ring, general restlessness, or avoidance of handler. Most of these signs could be observed any given day at an agility trial.


Hmmm. I've been a spectator at many agility competitions, and the only examples of the above I've ever seen are panting, barking, and zooming around the ring. Erm ....... the dog zooms around the ring because _that is what they do in agility_ .......... he barks _because he is enjoying himself_ ............ he pants _because he has been running_. : As for heelwork to music, the only one of the above I've seen is panting - hmm. Methinks that the dog could be panting because he is running around! T'aint rocket science!


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Its still performing tricks for the entertainment of others, I hate to see animals laughed at for being taught to do tricks. It may bond you & the dog, so does locking s dog in a cage and being its only source of food, both great bonding techniques. When s dog is taught to sit its not for my pleasure, entertainment, or to impress others. Dogs that stand on their front paws to wee don't do it to make you laugh, and BTW message isn't performed to music the music is added to enhance the movements of the horse as they demonstrate their capability to move in a small arena. Just because you, the UK, Europe participate in a legal activity still doesn't make it right in my book. People wear fur too and justify why, again not for me. 

Anybody know where I can get a giraffe, I fancy teaching it to ice skate in a ring of fire wearing a bower hat and smoking a cigarette, Marlboro light mind


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## beagleweiler (May 4, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Its still performing tricks for the entertainment of others, I hate to see animals laughed at for being taught to do tricks. It may bond you & the dog, so does locking s dog in a cage and being its only source of food, both great bonding techniques. When s dog is taught to sit its not for my pleasure, entertainment, or to impress others. Dogs that stand on their front paws to wee don't do it to make you laugh, and BTW message isn't performed to music the music is added to enhance the movements of the horse as they demonstrate their capability to move in a small arena. Just because you, the UK, Europe participate in a legal activity still doesn't make it right in my book. People wear fur too and justify why, again not for me.
> 
> Anybody know where I can get a giraffe, I fancy teaching it to ice skate in a ring of fire wearing a bower hat and smoking a cigarette, Marlboro light mind


So if our dogs do something funny in the home we should not laugh at it?

Is teaching your dog to give you their paw wrong, because really its for my pleasure?

I dont think people laugh at dogs doing HTM infact i think the dog is credited for being so intelligent which makes us smile.

Keeping a dog locked in a cage all the time is an act of cruelty even though your dog may dote on you, HTM is hardly that. If you think keeping a dog in a cage in your words is a "great bonding technique" then i dont think your opinion will count for much on here.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Its still performing tricks for the entertainment of others, I hate to see animals laughed at for being taught to do tricks. It may bond you & the dog, so does locking s dog in a cage and being its only source of food, both great bonding techniques. When s dog is taught to sit its not for my pleasure, entertainment, or to impress others. Dogs that stand on their front paws to wee don't do it to make you laugh, and BTW message isn't performed to music the music is added to enhance the movements of the horse as they demonstrate their capability to move in a small arena. Just because you, the UK, Europe participate in a legal activity still doesn't make it right in my book. People wear fur too and justify why, again not for me.
> 
> Anybody know where I can get a giraffe, I fancy teaching it to ice skate in a ring of fire wearing a bower hat and smoking a cigarette, Marlboro light mind


While I agree with the underlying sentiment, I do feel the examples are a little over the top


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> When s dog is taught to sit its not for my pleasure, entertainment, or to impress others.


No, it's done so that the owner can control it - ie for *human* need, not the dog's. How demeaning is that? The dog does not see any difference between being taught to sit or being taught to twirl. They are BOTH things that they are taught to do. The only difference is skewed human perception. Why do you think it is ok to teach a dog some tricks - eg sit, stay, leave - but not others - eg twirl, walk under my leg, jump over the cane? :[/QUOTE]


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> No, it's done so that the owner can control it - ie for *human* need, not the dog's. How demeaning is that? The dog does not see any difference between being taught to sit or being taught to twirl. They are BOTH things that they are taught to do. The only difference is skewed human perception. Why do you think it is ok to teach a dog some tricks - eg sit, stay, leave - but not others - eg twirl, walk under my leg, jump over the cane? :


[/QUOTE]

Sit stay leave could one day save a dogs life or prevent serious injury, the others won't


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> No, ['sit' is taught] so that the owner can control it - i-e, for *human* need, not the dog's.
> How demeaning is that?
> The dog does not see any difference between being taught to sit or being taught to twirl. They are BOTH things
> that they are taught to do. The only difference is skewed human perception. Why do you think it is ok to teach a dog some tricks - eg sit, stay, leave - but not others - eg twirl, walk under my leg,
> jump over the cane?


heartily agree. :thumbup1: & a very good question, too.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> Sit stay leave could one day save a dogs life or prevent serious injury, the others won't


that is not necessarily true, Rona - a good off-leash heel or FOLLOW ME walk without a leash, proofed under loads 
of distraction, can be a DoGsend in a high-stress moment - or very helpful when running for the door in heavy rain, 
with groceries in both arms. 

i'd never have predicted that my less than 6-MO pup would help me find my *dropped keys in over a foot of snow*
& i never taught her that - she learnt it as a result of a game, hunting for a specific cow-hoof of 3. 
it was a simple scent-game, but it saved our butts one night when i dropped my keys by the door in heavy snow. 
she found them in a minute or less - all i did was hold my open hand under her nose [the hand that had held 
& then dropped the keys] & say, "Seek!'


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Yep, I've had to shout at ppl to pick their dogs up, because they were reacting on leash, with Deer about to stampede them. If they'd been able to run with their dogs reliably, release the leash even it would have been better.

Sit & stay would have got their dog injured, even killed. Leave would have been irrelevant, unless it was RB's Spaniel "bogging off" on cue 
They needed to turn round, and have the dog focussed on following them to get it out of danger.


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Yep, I've had to shout at ppl to pick their dogs up, because they were reacting on leash, with Deer about to stampede them. If they'd been able to run with their dogs reliably, release the leash even it would have been better.
> 
> Sit & stay would have got their dog injured, even killed. Leave would have been irrelevant, unless it was RB's Spaniel "bogging off" on cue
> They needed to turn round, and have the dog focussed on following them to get it out of danger.


Are you Batman Rob? How do you manage to find yourself in all these exotic scenarios where you're the hero saving some happless dog owner in the wilderness who's aparently never been in the wilderness before? And of course you have all the answers?

How's about your wikkwe fwiends get ready to click a like on your reply?

Bunch of charlatans! So desparate for attention......

regards,

Austin


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I've only got back to posting on this board a couple of weeks and I am so disappointed to see such snidey, nasty harrssment of individuals by a few newer members whose sole purpose for coming on here seems to be to either promote correctional methods and decry positive ones or to have a go at other members! There's a pattern emerging and I am not impressed. Give over Austin please! It is getting tedious!


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> I've only got back to posting on this board a couple of weeks and I am so disappointed to see such snidey, nasty harrssment of individuals by a few newer members whose sole purpose for coming on here seems to be to either promote correctional methods and decry positive ones or to have a go at other members! There's a pattern emerging and I am not impressed. Give over Austin please! It is getting tedious!


Caroline, if you want to see harassment, scheming and sniding and ganging up on 'unapproved' posters then you don't need to look much past the people you're trying to defend. Sorry to be blunt, but they seem keen to do it to others for every little mention of a view that oposes theirs, perhaps it;s about time some had their moral values and suposed knowledge questioned and ridiculed, they seem to be such authorities on all situations.

As a point of proof, "newer members whose sole purpose for coming on here seems to be to either promote correctional methods and decry positive ones or to have a go at other members", that appears to be the consensus, which was initially promoted by the "other members" and has now stuck. Some of the "newer" members have made the same statements all along, there's more than one view, not all equipment is as it seems, sharing knowledge and openly discussing the different views objectively is beneficial. It's even more difficult when the "other members" refuse to acknowledge shortfalls in their methods and staunchly insist they're right and everyone else should do what they do without question, and will actively target and co-ordinate actions against "deviants".

Yes, there is a pattern emerging, lack of ethics and responsibility. A few non truths thrown in too for good measure. Would you genuinely prefer that's the norm? I'm completely happy for a compromise, have been since the first post, but unfortunately their persistance in being dishonest is making that very difficult.

regards,

Austin


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Sorry but your explanation cuts no ice with me Austin. You have been repeatedly attacking Rob on several threads. I am not sticking up for him because I 'know' him because I don't. (Sorry Rob, I said 'him', you may be female for all I know) But I hate to see bullying and that's what you have been doing. *Debate the topic, don't attack those posting on it!* It is bad 'netiquette' and also, harassment of other members is not allowed. That is just what your constant digs and nitpicking are - harassment! Rein it in and be less nasty because you are only making yourself (and the forum) look bad.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - 4de plaats htm freestyle Crufts 2010 Belgium.wmv

:001_tt1: How does the dog look?


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## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Apr 1, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Sorry but your explanation cuts no ice with me Austin. You have been repeatedly attacking Rob on several threads. I am not sticking up for him because I 'know' him because I don't. (Sorry Rob, I said 'him', you may be female for all I know) But I hate to see bullying and that's what you have been doing. *Debate the topic, don't attack those posting on it!* It is bad 'netiquette' and also, harassment of other members is not allowed. That is just what your constant digs and nitpicking are - harassment! Rein it in and be less nasty because you are only making yourself (and the forum) look bad.


Caroline, no. I've been the target of several rounds of bullying and posts being hijacked, if they don't want confrontation then they shouldn't instigate confrontation. I also object to their arrogant posts as unquestionable authorities when all they have is an opinion, what's wrong with just stating it's an opinion? I've also been acused constantly of spreading lies and having alterior motives by this very crowd, ridiculed and alienated. Well, it seems one in particular is a habitual liar too, if we're going to be childish and act like monkeys in a zoo then lets go all the way and start flinging poo like monkeys too. I'm past being civil and have no issue at all stooping to their level, just put me on ignore and spare the aggrivation until this situation gets resolved.

regards,

Austin


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

_Carolyn-H will not mention this, as she does not toot her own horn - 
but i will.

Caro-H was a moderator on a professional on-line Board, which required some serious 
training, not just a willingness to volunteer one's time & some minimal popularity or at the very least, 
not p*ssing off the Admin-members.

if i am not mistaken, she was working for Verizon at the time?, but Caro can confirm or correct me, 
or if she prefers, not bother to clarify. Her choice. :001_smile: _


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Not, not Verizon. It was AOL and I did it for 7 years (after 3 months training) on many different types of boards and chat rooms too. That's why I get so frustrated when I see a forum descending into nitpicking and harassment as I know too well where it will lead.  It leads to newer members being put off form posting and other members start to get quieter and move onto other boards instead. We were taught (among a lot of other things) to remember to 'smile from the wrists down'. In other words that no matter how wound up we got, we remained polite and did not attack the members, no matter how bad they got. 

But I posted on here tonight as I am sick of seeing this from the same few names on here and it was not nice to come back to after my long time away though I did pop back to look and post an occasional post from time to time if I could do it quickly to help someone. But now I don't feel like it, I feel despondent. Why? Because of the aggression that's crept in on here! Yes, we can put them on ignore but others just go quoting their posts when they respond so we still see it! :confused1:


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> There's a pattern emerging and I am not impressed. Give over Austin please! It is getting tedious!


No need to be mad for me! I take Austin's attention as a compliment.

I tried to be polite to him and patient, in "self correction collar" thread, it's got too silly to bother me personally, so I actually am laughing when I read the critiques.

I do appreciate your concern and actually I share your concern. If ppl do not follow the rules of polite debate, discussion becomes impossible and descends into what looks like slanging matches.

If you follow the link, you'll see I to have some experience about the tactics employed and the pattern & tactics to damage the forum's discussions were clear at beginning of April.


Me PM to a Moderator said:


> The "first thread" was not Adam P's remote collar.
> 
> See the date on this response by me - self correction collar
> 
> ...


For me this is more a problem for those running the forum, they appear to be tag teamed, presumably we're supposed to give up angry & frustrated?

We train dogs, we don't give up on them! :nono:


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

beagleweiler said:


> Im sure most dog owners know of these basic signs & wouldnt participate any further in such activities if they saw it to be stressing the dog out.
> 
> Most dogs though love doing activities with their owners & the signs of a happy dog are clearly visible.
> 
> ...


The dogs and the handlers had to be there for the author to observe. If the handlers were aware of the stress it caused, then they wouldn't have been there and the author wouldn't have had anything to report.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> I've only got back to posting on this board a couple of weeks and I am so disappointed to see such snidey, nasty harrssment of individuals by a few members




This is so true but others see harassment by different individuals to you, and yes it is against forum rules 
Quote
"Harassment
Harassing, flaming and threatening other users WILL NOT be tolerated. Moderators / Administrators reserve the right to delete any posts if they find them inappropriate in any way."

I normally stay clear of this section, but after seeing the constant attacks on Grandad for as far as I can see, no good reason. I felt I had to come to have my say. He has been lumped in with the ecollar brigade for no good reason.
He did not advocate there use


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

HTM was the question. Ive made my point and would leave it at that ... but apparently people seem to have misread my post and think that I lock my dogs in a cage, and L4L seems to like that I do. 

You have misread the post, an apology would be nice.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*


grandad said:



Dress it up how you like, It's still not right and the animal's never asked for it.

Click to expand...

*I'm not dressing it up I was simply explaining how HTM started in the UK and what is is about, which is what you asked.

If these activities cause so much stress and should be banned in your opinion, why is it that there are many dog behavourist, including APDT members, competing with their own dogs?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> I'm not dressing it up I was simply explaining how HTM started in the UK and what is is about, which is what you asked.
> 
> If these activities cause so much stress and should be banned in your opinion, why is it that there are many dog behavourist, including APDT members, competing with their own dogs?


Can you supply some figures? is it 50/50 60/40 in favour or against? for example


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

grandad said:


> Can you supply some figures? is it 50/50 60/40 in favour or against? for example


I've no idea and certainly haven't got time to compile that sort of data.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> I've no idea and certainly haven't got time to compile that sort of data.


thought you may have read it somewhere


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

grandad said:


> thought you may have read it somewhere


No they are handlers that I have personally competed against in obedience, agility and HTM.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> No they are handlers that I have personally competed against in obedience, agility and HTM.


So it would be a biased view point then? I wonder if there are trainers/behaviourists who are against dog sports?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

LuvMyDog_Worldwide said:


> Are you Batman Rob? How do you manage to find yourself in all these exotic scenarios where you're the hero saving some happless dog owner in the wilderness who's aparently never been in the wilderness before?


No, I'm not Batman. It's very simple Austin, I walk the dog almost every day for a couple of hours in a deer park, and I've walked previous dogs there to. I also ran there doing X-country when young, so I've seen lots of run ins, with deer attacking ppl & dogs. I saw ppl in a very dangerous situation, one that I am on look out for, because I have to keep my dog safe to. I saw they were panicing, so I called out so they knew what to do.

Oddly enough today I walked with a visually impaired man, and shot my arm out in front of him and said "Stop!", as he stepped off the curb as a car, just as a suddenly turned left at speed. It would have knocked him down. I did that because that's what any decent, alert person would do. There's nothing special about it, and I was with him because we chat on walks and he likes some company (occasionally he gets lost and takes wrong turns).

Most ppl who are out regularly in busy places with their eyes open soon build up plenty of anecdotes. Certainly ppl are always telling me things that have happened.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

grandad said:


> I wonder if there are trainers/behaviourists who are against dog sports?


Many ppl I have met who consulted Behavourists were suggested to train for a dog sport, especially agility.

A given dog sport, is not suitable for all dogs, nor is every club & class it would seem. A Bulldog might have a problem to do Agility or Flyball for example as it is physically demanding.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*


grandad said:



So it would be a biased view point then? I wonder if there are trainers/behaviourists who are against dog sports?

Click to expand...

*Quite possibly. I was simply stating a fact that many behavourist compete with their own dogs.

When the APDT was set up in the UK many of the founder members were competing in agility, competitive obedience and working trials.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

grandad said:


> So it would be a biased view point then? I wonder if there are trainers/behaviourists who are against dog sports?


There wouldn't be would there, it's the way they make their money.
Lets face it, in the scheme of things, agility, HTM and even tricks are not going to be a cruelty matter even if the dog is a bit nervous unless the owner/trainer is a complete idiot, and I'm sure that some dogs get a huge amount of pleasure from it.
I can't watch it but in all honesty I can't condemn it either. Too many dogs lead far better lives because of things like this.
Not all dogs have the opportunity to lead natural lives and these activities can be good substitutes


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> Quite possibly. I was simply stating a fact that many behavourist compete with their own dogs.
> 
> When the APDT was set up in the UK many of the founder members were competing in agility, competitive obedience and working trials.


Yes, I know and I'm a great fan of John Fisher, the founder. I think that each dog and owner needs to be assessed before competing or being advised to compete and certainly classes need to be monitored. If agility and other dog sports are kept quiet and stress free and the dogs can cope with the environment and the equipment and owners have been advised by qualified people then who am i to judge. I do however have reservations that some of these clubs are set up by individuals with no experience, are badly run and are detrimental to dogs and the dogs well being. This is just my view point, I wouldn't put my dog through it. Especially now that I've read that 50% of dogs show some kind of stress. 
As a loving dog owner, I would have thought that an owner, thinking of taking up a sport would at least, take advice from a professional before joining a club.


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## Guest (May 13, 2011)

grandad said:


> Yes, I know and I'm a great fan of John Fisher, the founder. I think that each dog and owner needs to be assessed before competing or being advised to compete and certainly classes need to be monitored. If agility and other dog sports are kept quiet and stress free and the dogs can cope with the environment and the equipment and owners have been advised by qualified people then who am i to judge. I do however have reservations that some of these clubs are set up by individuals with no experience, are badly run and are detrimental to dogs and the dogs well being. This is just my view point, I wouldn't put my dog through it. Especially now that I've read that 50% of dogs show some kind of stress.
> As a loving dog owner, I would have thought that an owner, thinking of taking up a sport would at least, take advice from a professional before joining a club.


 professional
Oh how I hate that word. If there are no regulations then they can join a few associations by paying out pennies and call themselves professional.
Like the "trainer" here that kicks and electrocutes dogs  Plenty of letters behind his name but all he is is a cruel ba***ard


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

had a couple of reports about this one - need to close it to look through it


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