# Hunting



## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

I can not understand why poeple are in favour of hunting to be legal again :frown:

It is cruel. 

If you support the come back, do you also approve of bull fighting?


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

without things such as bull fighting we wouldnt have our bull breeds tho,

i hunt rabbits for the pot, theyre delish


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

we've had this 'argument' before, i'm pretty sure the thread was closed down, should still be searchable tho.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Starlite said:


> without things such as bull fighting we wouldnt have our bull breeds tho,
> 
> i hunt rabbits for the pot, theyre delish


What do you mean hun? i.e bull breeds - not trying tp appear thick, i really am :lol:


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

quite honestly i have to say it dosent bother me. 

Im kinda on the fence i guess..... its tradition - been around for so long its 'the norm'....


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

I hate hunting especially for recreation, it is cruel and for someones entertainment for a day means an animal has to lose its entire life. Its pointless surely there are other means of amusing oneself.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I can't stand the thought of fox hunting or bull fighting.If foxes need to be controled then shoot them,do use sport as an excuse.*


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Before the ban we took a sustainable crop of hares through the winter and had plenty around here, now they have nearly all been shot to keep the lurcher people away. Before the ban we would be going out counting them at this time of year, now we can't find any.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Before the ban we took a sustainable crop of hares through the winter and had plenty around here, now they have nearly all been shot to keep the lurcher people away. Before the ban we would be going out counting them at this time of year, now we can't find any.


Bloody hell you should come here!! I've never seen so many hare's as I've seen this year!!

Personally I have absolutely no problem with people hunting for food, much rather that than the torture most animals have to endure for humans to eat. I will be starting on Norris's training to work soon, just waiting for him to mature a little bit more but he'll be trained as a working dog. My other Bedlington cross is trained to work, and while he never has and likely never will actually work the training involved to get them to that level is excellent for their breeding and great fun for them and me to learn.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

i'll never understand how some people think its perfectly acceptable to rip a wild animal to pieces but would be outraged if packs of dogs were trained and encouraged to rip to pieces pet dogs for example! cruelty is cruelty in my eyes!

god lets pray we dont step back in time and bring this despicable 'tradition' back!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Problem is we don't have to kill for food anymore. I think it's sickening how people find it perfectly acceptable to train their dogs to attack and kill wild animals but those who train their dogs to attack and kill other dogs are awful, should be murdered ect ect ? So it's okay because no one cares about the wild animals, they aren't spoilt and they don't sleep on anyones bed? aka you don't have one? I mean i guess if you think it's okay to kill foxes for food you wouldn't mind me munching on some dog? It's one tiny little step from slaughtering wild animals for 'food' or for the sheer enjoyment of it to people who don't like dogs slaughtering them. Like i said on a thread on this topic before; 

THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

By advocating slaughtering innocent wild animals you open the gateway. I've seen hunts and they have no place in a civilised modern world. Aren't you ashamed to say you come from a country where it's the 'norm' to chase down one terrified little fox with a pack of dogs and men on horses ? I mean witch hunting used to be tradition to, should we bring that back? xx


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Problem is we don't have to kill for food anymore. I think it's sickening how people find it perfectly acceptable to train their dogs to attack and kill wild animals but those who train their dogs to attack and kill other dogs are awful, should be murdered ect ect ? So it's okay because no one cares about the wild animals, they aren't spoilt and they don't sleep on anyones bed? aka you don't have one? I mean i guess if you think it's okay to kill foxes for food you wouldn't mind me munching on some dog? It's one tiny little step from slaughtering wild animals for 'food' or for the sheer enjoyment of it to people who don't like dogs slaughtering them. Like i said on a thread on this topic before;
> 
> THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
> ...


Great post xx


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

but what about those on here who let thir dogs chase rabbits for food....? or even cats who bring in mice etc... thats still a life...?

im not getting intoa debate to fight any corners as i cba i have an exam in 3 hours :lol: just stating some points


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I will never understand how anyone can be so against hunting but be perfectly happy to have someone else kill an animal so their cat or dog can eat it


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

nic101 said:


> but what about those on here who let thir dogs chase rabbits for food....? or even cats who bring in mice etc... thats still a life...?
> 
> im not getting intoa debate to fight any corners as i cba i have an exam in 3 hours :lol: just stating some points


I don't agree with dogs killing rabbits either. Cats are no where near as domesticated as dogs, and they don't do it for sport it's sheer instinct. If i catch my cat trying to kill something then i distract him and let the poor thing get away. Good luck with your exam  x


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I don't agree with dogs killing rabbits either. Cats are no where near as domesticated as dogs, and they don't do it for sport it's sheer instinct. If i catch my cat trying to kill something then i distract him and let the poor thing get away. Good luck with your exam  x


thanks 

(im actually trying not to throw up im that terrified)...

:lol:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I will never understand how anyone can be so against hunting but be perfectly happy to have someone else kill an animal so their cat or dog can eat it


Because they aren't savaged to death. They're killed humanly. If people killed foxes humanely then i wouldn't have a problem with them. I do, however have a problem with people who hunt. x


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Fuzzbug's your arguement holds if you are a vegetarian, what I find most confusing is those meat eaters who find hunting so horrific. Seriously I suggest you all visit the majority of the meat producing 'farms' in this country, and then the slaughter houses and then comment on the value of life and what rights we have to hunt wild animals. I for one would much rather see someone eating a rabbit who has lived it's life free and wild than a pig who has only ever seen torture and pain...aside from the fact mass produced meat has so many things pumped into it god only know's what you are actually eating!!!

The difference with my views on this is I've never eaten meat in my life and I never will, so I find those meat eaters who jump up and down in horror at animals being hunted for food quiet difficult to understand. They will sit back and chew on a pig who has suffered months of torture and abuse locked in a tiny cage and slaughtered scared and terrified but then be up in arms over the quick painfree death of a fluffy bunny who's run wild all it's life eating, playing, free and happy???? I find it very hard to understand the hypocrasy (sp) of alot of anti hunts people.:confused1:

In my view if you eat meat why is there a difference between cow meat or dog meat? So yes if you meat then eat dog meat if you want to, it's all meat from a living breathing animal.

There's a huge difference between hunting for pleasure and hunting for food. Pleasure hunters obviously need a session of being hunted down and chased to appreciate the ordeal but people who hunt for food kill quickly and are certainly not in it for the blood lust.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

nic101 said:


> but what about those on here who let thir dogs chase rabbits for food....? or even cats who bring in mice etc... thats still a life...?
> 
> im not getting intoa debate to fight any corners as i cba i have an exam in 3 hours :lol: just stating some points


its actually illegal to let a dog chase and kill rabbits!

sorry but you really cant compare animals its their instinct to hunt, they do it for food or to hone their hunting skills.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Problem is we don't have to kill for food anymore. I think it's sickening how people find it perfectly acceptable to train their dogs to attack and kill wild animals but those who train their dogs to attack and kill other dogs are awful, should be murdered ect ect ? So it's okay because no one cares about the wild animals, they aren't spoilt and they don't sleep on anyones bed? aka you don't have one? I mean i guess if you think it's okay to kill foxes for food you wouldn't mind me munching on some dog? It's one tiny little step from slaughtering wild animals for 'food' or for the sheer enjoyment of it to people who don't like dogs slaughtering them. Like i said on a thread on this topic before;
> 
> THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
> ...


i would happily eat fox or dog if it tasted nice.

i threaten my rats with 'rat burgers or kebabs' when they're being bad. and the we regularly tell the cats they'll be stew if the don't behave.. while i wouldn't eat my pets, i wouldn't say no to trying it.

I think certain 'blood' sports are needed when they are part of pest control. I would prefer foxes to be shot (rather thanhunted or snared) but on the other foot, that's peoples livelihood, the horse, the dogs etc all have to be looked after and when the hunts aren't allowed those animals are given away as much as possible, the others are destroyed when no one wants them and they are too expensive to keep, without the hunt money they have no income, with no one willing to buy them... it's off to the glue factory.
yes it's a cruel sport, but foxes are hunted for a reason, their destruction of domesticated animals (chickens etc). while shooting is more reasonable the fox has more chance of being maimed and little chance of getting away, hunts don't always get their fox, and it may move area once it's escaped.

bull fighting etc is wrong, it's not hunting for pest control or food, it's wanton destruction of a perfectly good animal.

having said that i don't think hunting should be brought back as it was if at all, it should be changed slightly, more laws to govern it etc.
pheasant shoots could be seen as just as cruel as the birds are scared into flight.

i think there are ways and means of hunting for pleasure and it being as humane as possible for the animal. as long as it's eaten or used up for something at the end of it.. hunting should be allowed.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Because they aren't savaged to death. They're killed humanly. If people killed foxes humanely then i wouldn't have a problem with them. I do, however have a problem with people who hunt. x


There's nothing humain about the meat industry in this country.


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

JSR said:


> Fuzzbug's your arguement holds if you are a vegetarian, what I find most confusing is those meat eaters who find hunting so horrific. Seriously I suggest you all visit the majority of the meat producing 'farms' in this country, and then the slaughter houses and then comment on the value of life and what rights we have to hunt wild animals. I for one would much rather see someone eating a rabbit who has lived it's life free and wild than a pig who has only ever seen torture and pain...aside from the fact mass produced meat has so many things pumped into it god only know's what you are actually eating!!!
> 
> The difference with my views on this is I've never eaten meat in my life and I never will, so I find those meat eaters who jump up and down in horror at animals being hunted for food quiet difficult to understand. They will sit back and chew on a pig who has suffered months of torture and abuse locked in a tiny cage and slaughtered scared and terrified but then be up in arms over the quick painfree death of a fluffy bunny who's run wild all it's life eating, playing, free and happy???? I find it very hard to understand the hypocrasy (sp) of alot of anti hunts people.:confused1:
> 
> ...


very good points 

i think it depends too on peoples ideas of pets? for me dogs are my pets. Horses are to a point. i admit i have eaten horse meat in france (who hasnt) however its not something i would purposly eat again as i now know how horrific the torture these horses go through to reach the dinner plate.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

JSR said:


> There's nothing humain about the meat industry in this country.


I know alot of the industry is disgusting but as far as i'm aware there are some that are okay? I could be wrong though, it's been a few years scince i researched it. I'm a vegetarian (who doesnt like veg lol!) btw so i'm more thinking on the dog food lines? x


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Because they aren't savaged to death. They're killed humanly. If people killed foxes humanely then i wouldn't have a problem with them. I do, however have a problem with people who hunt. x


No but they have a life time of being loaded onto lorries, sent to market, poked with cattle prods and having hole punched in their ears before being loaded onto lorries and then standing round in abattoirs waiting to be killed while the poor wild animals are running free the way that God or nature or what ever you beleive in intended.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

JSR said:


> Fuzzbug's your arguement holds if you are a vegetarian, what I find most confusing is those meat eaters who find hunting so horrific. Seriously I suggest you all visit the majority of the meat producing 'farms' in this country, and then the slaughter houses and then comment on the value of life and what rights we have to hunt wild animals. I for one would much rather see someone eating a rabbit who has lived it's life free and wild than a pig who has only ever seen torture and pain...aside from the fact mass produced meat has so many things pumped into it god only know's what you are actually eating!!!
> 
> The difference with my views on this is I've never eaten meat in my life and I never will, so I find those meat eaters who jump up and down in horror at animals being hunted for food quiet difficult to understand. They will sit back and chew on a pig who has suffered months of torture and abuse locked in a tiny cage and slaughtered scared and terrified but then be up in arms over the quick painfree death of a fluffy bunny who's run wild all it's life eating, playing, free and happy???? I find it very hard to understand the hypocrasy (sp) of alot of anti hunts people.:confused1:
> 
> ...


I completely understand your argument and yes, i am a vegetarian. I wasn't up until i was about 13 and realised that no, lambs did not prance about in a field happily then have a quick painless death . I won't lie, i did love meat but like you say i am so against hunting that i wanted to distance myself from it as much as i possibly could. x


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> its actually illegal to let a dog chase and kill rabbits!
> 
> sorry but you really cant compare animals its their instinct to hunt, they do it for food or to hone their hunting skills.


No it's not. Land owners have a legal requirement to control rabbits


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> No but they have a life time of being loaded onto lorries, sent to market, poked with cattle prods and having hole punched in their ears before being loaded onto lorries and then standing round in abattoirs waiting to be killed while the poor wild animals are running free the way that God or nature or what ever you beleive in intended.


 foxes arnt even killed for food theyre killed for so called sport!

and i am a vegetarian by the way but i can understand meat eaters being sickened by fox hunting.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

hawksport said:


> No but they have a life time of being loaded onto lorries, sent to market, poked with cattle prods and having hole punched in their ears before being loaded onto lorries and then standing round in abattoirs waiting to be killed while the poor wild animals are running free the way that God or nature or what ever you beleive in intended.


I can't comment on the meat market as a whole because i haven't looked into if for a good while but nature did not intend for you (not you personally) to get on a horse with a couple of buddies and a pack of dogs and hunt down one single terrified animal. x


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> No it's not. Land owners have a legal requirement to control rabbits


apologies youre right


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I can't comment on the meat market as a whole because i haven't looked into if for a good while but nature did not intend for you (not you personally) to get on a horse with a couple of buddies and a pack of dogs and hunt down one single terrified animal. x


No nature intended them to do it without me


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

Shamen said:


> foxes arnt even killed for food theyre killed for so called sport!
> 
> and i am a vegetarian by the way but i can understand meat eaters being sickened by fox hunting.


But as I said there is a difference between hunting for food and hunting for sport. Fox hunting of course is disgusting and I absolutely stand by the ban and long may it continue (although unlikely with this government) but you cannot put fox hunting (or bull fighting for that matter) in the same compartment as hunting for food (pheasants, rabbits, etc).


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> No nature intended them to do it without me


nature didnt intend them to do it the foxhound has been specifically shaped by man to hunt foxes, hes bred the best hunters shot the ones who dont make the grade


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I will never understand how anyone can be so against hunting but be perfectly happy to have someone else kill an animal so their cat or dog can eat it


me neither.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

JSR said:


> But as I said there is a difference between hunting for food and hunting for sport. Fox hunting of course is disgusting and I absolutely stand by the ban and long may it continue (although unlikely with this government) but you cannot put fox hunting (or bull fighting for that matter) in the same compartment as hunting for food (pheasants, rabbits, etc).


although i am a veggie and i feel we can live perfectly healthily without killing animals i totally agree with you


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree with alot of points on here as I am totally against fox hunting, bull fighting, etc but can't see how hunting for food can be cruel - at least the animals live in their natural environment & have a (usually) quick death.
I don't eat meat but do eat fish. I go fishing quite alot; sea fishing where I keep the fish for food but coarse fisshing for fun, there's been posts on here previously regarding the cruelty in this but I would disagree so maybe i'm a bit of a hypocrite!!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

This has been discussed greatly on here before.. 

Is what you have got to think about is how to keep these animals down in numbers so you haven't got foxes going into farms and killing every chicken they come across... Not for food... If it was for food they would kill and eat.. Instead.. they go and savage everything they can get their teeth round..

So how would you humaely keep the numbers of these animals under control?????


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> nature didnt intend them to do it the foxhound has been specifically shaped by man to hunt foxes, hes bred the best hunters shot the ones who dont make the grade


wolves........................


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

I personally are against bringing the huting ban back, as I do not believe in lots of dogs onto one animal. However yes I do work my dogs but make it fair, one-on-one chases. Most of the time the rabbits that are caught by my dogs have got Myxi and my dogs dont savage it to death, he quickly breaks their necks, so they are killed quickly.

It isnt every night that we go out, but even if we did, my dog catches probably 2 every couple of weeks.

We have a contract with the farmer, to try and reduce the population on his land.

Before I owned lurchers I was dead against killing innocent animals, but the satisfaction that my dogs receive when they are chasing is brilliant to see them so happy. Even if they dont catch its nice to see how happy they are doing what they were bred to do.

And yes, If they do catch anything, I give it to them for their dinner.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> This has been discussed greatly on here before..
> 
> Is what you have got to think about is how to keep these animals down in numbers so you haven't got foxes going into farms and killing every chicken they come across... Not for food... If it was for food they would kill and eat.. Instead.. they go and savage everything they can get their teeth round..
> 
> So how would you humaely keep the numbers of these animals under control?????


they do kill the chickens for food but they cache any surplus for later, fox hunting kills foxes indiscriminatley foxes who have never killed chickens are killed, dont you think shooting them is far more humane than chasing them all over the countyside then if they manage to go to ground sending terriers down, digging them out and ultimately throwing them to the hounds to be torn to shreds.... now thats what i call INHUMANE!


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree with alot of points on here as I am totally against fox hunting, bull fighting, etc but can't see how hunting for food can be cruel - at least the animals live in their natural environment & have a (usually) quick death.
> I don't eat meat but do eat fish. I go fishing quite alot; sea fishing where I keep the fish for food but coarse fisshing for fun, there's been posts on here previously regarding the cruelty in this but I would disagree so maybe i'm a bit of a hypocrite!!


Good girl,the sport needs more. :thumbup:


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> wolves........................


oh please wolves would never set out to in a pack to hunt a fox!:lol: individual wolves would kill an unsuspecting fox but do you seriously believe they would waste energy as a pack to kill something as small as a fox lmao!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> oh please wolves would never set out to in a pack to hunt a fox!:lol: individual wolves would kill an unsuspecting fox but do you seriously believe they would waste energy as a pack to kill something as small as a fox lmao!


Have I mentioned a fox yet


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Have I mentioned a fox yet


lol sorry thats what you seemed to be implying please fill me in then:thumbup:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> lol sorry thats what you seemed to be implying please fill me in then:thumbup:


Fill you in with what?


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Fill you in with what?


what you were meaning by 'wolves' of course:confused1:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> what you were meaning by 'wolves' of course:confused1:


A pack of wolves would hunt down an elk or what ever in the same way a pack of hounds would a stag.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Its the fact that a fox has to endure a lengthy chase and is killed by being torn apart, limb by limb, for no reason other than a day out (which could be done following a scent) that I have a problem with. If foxes are a nuisance and need removing I understand that farmers etc want them gone and will shoot them, fair do's and its over with quickly, but hunting them I don't agree with.

Speaking as someone who has gone drag hunting numerous times, I also don't understand the horsey folk who say fox hunting is rubbish if you only follow a scent. Load of bull to me, my hunt very rarely even found a fox luckily but that doesn't mean to say that its OK on the rare occasion that they do.

Not long ago in Ireland there were two brothers out walking their little dog. It got torn apart by fox hounds. So many people were all 'OMG the poor dog!' how about the poor bloody foxes who have had that for years too? That news story just highlighted to me how hunts NEED to be responsible for their dogs and how they ought to give a sh*t enough to notice why some are lagging behind.

I have some friends in Ireland who used to hunt. Problem is sometimes the hounds would go for a horse once in a while and they went for hers one day and caused irreparable ligament damage. I don't feel dogs like that should be out offlead anyway, let alone on fox hunts where a lot of them run out onto roads as well. I hope some are better trained but those near me are not, nor are those that my friends are near to, either 

Things need to be enforced anyway, but if the hunting ban is repealed I will be taking a one way ticket out of this country asap. It took years to get hunting banned and IMO the training of the hounds is often very poor and I would want to see that improved a lot before I even agree with them going out into the countryside offlead.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> A pack of wolves would hunt down an elk or what ever in the same way a pack of hounds would a stag.


hmmm right so although i was clearly talking about foxes and Foxhounds you were meaning deer


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> hmmm right so although i was clearly talking about foxes and Foxhounds you were meaning deer


No if you look back to post number 32 where I was meaning deer you bought up foxes


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> This has been discussed greatly on here before..
> 
> Is what you have got to think about is how to keep these animals down in numbers so you haven't got foxes going into farms and killing every chicken they come across... Not for food... If it was for food they would kill and eat.. Instead.. they go and savage everything they can get their teeth round..
> 
> So how would you humaely keep the numbers of these animals under control?????


Did your hunts ever manage to catch many foxes then? Mine didn't, they averaged about one fox every 2 months and we have plenty about round here. Its not an effective vermin control IMO. The only ones they ever caught were the ones too old or too ill to go far, not the young ones who had been out killing pets/livestock.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

So you want to get rid of the excess fowes by shooting them.. And what about the foxes that are shot but are not fatally wounded.. They are wounded wandering around in excruciating pain have puss coming out of there wound and need to eat... They then find your Rabbit hutches and get them.....

Im speaking of experience from living in the counrty side as I grew up.. 

It is nice to see a little furry fox.. But when you go out in the morning and find that lovely fox has bitten all the heads off your chickens and geese and ducks.. Im telling you, you don't think the same about the fox...


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## Helloween19 (Jan 20, 2010)

Hmm I suppose it depends what kind of hunting you are talking about...

I can't see how people who eat meat could possibly have a problem with hunting for food, yet I know alot of people who do  Personally I think it's more respectful, and a hell of alot kinder to kill something yourself, when it's lived a happy life in it's natural environment than to go and buy a chunk of meat from the supermarket.

Hunting for sport is a hard one for me though, something I've been thinking about alot recently! 
I have been fox hunting, and it was fun, didn't really have anything to do with killing the fox that made it fun, more galloping around the countryside for a day! I have seen a fox killed out hunting and I didn't think it was cruel, it was a quick death and was over in seconds. I think if foxes are going to be killed it's one of the "nicer" ways for them to be killed, I really don't like snares and I know foxes can be injured but not killed if shot. But then I start thinking do we really have the right to say such and such animal is a pest and we should kill it? I know they take chickens, they're taken plenty of mine but well, it's not really the end of the world, they do far less damage than us!

I think if anyone's the pest it's got to be us humans! 

So yeah although I used to be pro hunting I may have changed my mind! It's not the cruelty aspect, I just don't really think we have the right to say who lives and who dies, we don't really own the planet! I think if I go hunting this year, I shall be going drag hunting!!!


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Shamen said:


> nature didnt intend them to do it the foxhound has been specifically shaped by man to hunt foxes, hes bred the best hunters shot the ones who dont make the grade





hawksport said:


> wolves........................





hawksport said:


> No if you look back to post number 32 where I was meaning deer you bought up foxes


lmao well why did YOU quote ME with 'wolves' when i was clearly talking about foxes:lol:


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Tinsley, can I ask? 

I was told by someone who I know that used to go out to hunt on their horses. And she told me that usually you get a "head dog" that leads then as soon as they catch a fox this head dog normally breaks the neck straight away and the other dogs take the body therefore the fox doesnt feel it being ripped apart??

I didnt question her on it bas I thought that was a good answer, but is this not the case?


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Tinsley said:


> Did your hunts ever manage to catch many foxes then? Mine didn't, they averaged about one fox every 2 months and we have plenty about round here. Its not an effective vermin control IMO. The only ones they ever caught were the ones too old or too ill to go far, not the young ones who had been out killing pets/livestock.


Haha Did I say I had been hunting? :~)


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Tinsley, can I ask?
> 
> I was told by someone who I know that used to go out to hunt on their horses. And she told me that usually you get a "head dog" that leads then as soon as they catch a fox this head dog normally breaks the neck straight away and the other dogs take the body therefore the fox doesnt feel it being ripped apart??
> 
> I didnt question her on it bas I thought that was a good answer, but is this not the case?


Personally I think the dogs are that wound up that the head dog possibly wouldn't be head anymore...

I haven't heard this before.. but i think you will find the dogs that are more experienced will take the lead..


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> Personally I think the dogs are that wound up that the head dog possibly wouldn't be head anymore...
> 
> I haven't heard this before.. but i think you will find the dogs that are more experienced will take the lead..


Thank you for the response.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Shamen said:


> they do kill the chickens for food but they cache any surplus for later, fox hunting kills foxes indiscriminatley foxes who have never killed chickens are killed, dont you think shooting them is far more humane than chasing them all over the countyside then if they manage to go to ground sending terriers down, digging them out and ultimately throwing them to the hounds to be torn to shreds.... now thats what i call INHUMANE!


Have you ever shot an animal? it's harder than it and have to assume it's suffered before dying. shooting maybe more human but it's also indiscriminate, you can shoot healthy animals and leave the sick ones, hunting (one on one) at least weeds out the weak.

Tinsley, the training of hunting dogs is very often BRILLIANT, but unfortunately pack mentality can take over if the pack is too big, it's up to the humans to ensure that the pack is controlled effectively, not up to the pack to ensure they stick to training, they are animals themselves after all.
I know someone who trains beagles for hunting and his (or he has when his dogs aren't used) have never been involved in a problematic hunt.

i can't mind who it was that course fished, but yes it's cruel in my books, but because it's a fish no-one cares. fish and eat it fine. but to put it back just to show you can?? a bit evil in my books. i don't agree with most fishing, sport fishing of any sort is bad in my books, fishing for eating is fine, commercial fishing (although i dislike brussels for nicking our targets and making my home area full of unemployeds) is the worst of the lot.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> nature didnt intend them to do it the foxhound has been specifically shaped by man to hunt foxes, hes bred the best hunters shot the ones who dont make the grade





Shamen said:


> lmao well why did YOU quote ME with 'wolves' when i was clearly talking about foxes:lol:


No, you first quoted me

Originally Posted by hawksport View Post
No nature intended them to do it without me

no mention of foxes, and you replied

nature didnt intend them to do it the foxhound has been specifically shaped by man to hunt foxes, hes bred the best hunters shot the ones who dont make the grade
__________________


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I am not keen on the thought of hunting but having said that the the worst cruelty I have seen is when I had to spend 2 days at a slaughter house it will be with me for the rest of my life the slaughtermen had no respect for the animals it was like something from a horror film sorry gone off track a bit


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> No, you first quoted me
> 
> Originally Posted by hawksport View Post
> No nature intended them to do it without me
> ...


 even on post 32 i see no mention of stags infact i cant find any reference to stags until my reply to your 'wolves' fuzzbugs and myself both clearly mentioned foxes though and you quoted us both, so ive said my bit and im leaving it there because i agree it has now gone off topic.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> So you want to get rid of the excess fowes by shooting them.. And what about the foxes that are shot but are not fatally wounded.. They are wounded wandering around in excruciating pain have puss coming out of there wound and need to eat... They then find your Rabbit hutches and get them.....
> 
> Im speaking of experience from living in the counrty side as I grew up..
> 
> It is nice to see a little furry fox.. But when you go out in the morning and find that lovely fox has bitten all the heads off your chickens and geese and ducks.. Im telling you, you don't think the same about the fox...


I live in the country and a fox has had about 14 of our chickens and at least two bunnies. They are blighters like that but they do it to eat, not for a day out. I don't see why we can't relocate the foxes or 'get rid' in a more humane way than by hunting them down which, in my area they failed at to be honest anyway. I haven't come across anyone on a hunt who has actually admitted it is a good method of vermin control, none of those I know actually think it was vermin control, it was a day out for the horses and hounds.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Tinsley said:


> I live in the country and a fox has had about 14 of our chickens and at least two bunnies. They are blighters like that but they do it to eat, not for a day out. I don't see why we can't relocate the foxes or 'get rid' in a more humane way than by hunting them down which, in my area they failed at to be honest anyway. I haven't come across anyone on a hunt who has actually admitted it is a good method of vermin control, none of those I know actually think it was vermin control, it was a day out for the horses and hounds.


Im not saying it is the way.. I asked before is there a humane way as we see it... 
I don't like to think of a little fox being killed.. But I don't like what they do.. We have had this debate before and I am sure you were on it.. :~)


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Go back to the begining and you will see I posted this which is obviouly not about foxes



hawksport said:


> I will never understand how anyone can be so against hunting but be perfectly happy to have someone else kill an animal so their cat or dog can eat it


This is the post that was first quoted. Up untill then this was a thread about hunting not fox hunting. Now it's turned into another pointless debate on fox hunting that will end the same way as the others


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> Im not saying it is the way.. I asked before is there a humane way as we see it...
> I don't like to think of a little fox being killed.. But I don't like what they do.. We have had this debate before and I am sure you were on it.. :~)


I can't remember, I have a really bad memory :blushing:

I don't think shooting is necessarily humane but I think its a bit more humane than hunting, if you know what I mean? I think that's why I'm against hunting because it seems about the worst way it could be done. Chap on the chicken farm about 4 miles away has a trap which he catches them in and he then shoots them. Still not nice because the poor thing is trapped and probably afraid because of that, but then if this guy released it elsewhere it would be probably till do damage just to someone else's farm.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Tinsley said:


> I can't remember, I have a really bad memory :blushing:
> 
> I don't think shooting is necessarily humane but I think its a bit more humane than hunting, if you know what I mean? I think that's why I'm against hunting because it seems about the worst way it could be done. Chap on the chicken farm about 4 miles away has a trap which he catches them in and he then shoots them. Still not nice because the poor thing is trapped and probably afraid because of that, but then if this guy released it elsewhere it would be probably till do damage just to someone else's farm.


We have a conscience.... We all have our own opinion. This is why its so hard to agree on what to do..
I understand hunting the weak and old get killed..

Whether it be hunting rats, rabbits foxes and all the other species that cause us a problem how would we sort this problem?

Its alright going on about how cruel it is but.. the question is how to sort it..

I can't believe this has all been brought up again..


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

This is the first debate on hunting that hasn't gone pear shaped, keep it up folks! :thumbup:

Personally, I'm against fox hunting. However, hunting for food (with a rifle or shotgun) and sport fishing are completely acceptable in my opinion. To add my bit to the angling part, us anglers are certainly a more composed group.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Go back to the begining and you will see I posted this which is obviouly not about foxes
> 
> This is the post that was first quoted. Up untill then this was a thread about hunting not fox hunting. Now it's turned into another pointless debate on fox hunting that will end the same way as the others


If you believe it to be that pointless then there really is no need for you to waste your time reading or posting on it. I don't agree with any form of hunting it just so happens i feel very strongly about foxes in particular. I may be wrong but the OP mentioned the hunting ban. I am unsure of whether or not the hunting ban includes other animals than foxes?

I understand that some people are 100% for fox hunting and their opinions will not change on that matter. However, i think that some (not all) people should man up to why they do it instead of sugar coating it with bs. I've seen a hunt first hand and the dogs were completely out of control, the people seemed very primal (not sure if thats the correct word here) and it all seemed very barbaric. & a fox was caught and it did not die quickly or peacefully or quietly. Many of you are saying how else would we keep the population down but are also saying that alot of the time the fox gets away - which one is it? Either fox hunting keeps the population down or else the fox gets away the majority of the time which i would then conclude that fox hunting is done for sport.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> If you believe it to be that pointless then there really is no need for you to waste your time reading or posting on it. I don't agree with any form of hunting it just so happens i feel very strongly about foxes in particular. I may be wrong but the OP mentioned the hunting ban. I am unsure of whether or not the hunting ban includes other animals than foxes?
> 
> I understand that some people are 100% for fox hunting and their opinions will not change on that matter. However, i think that some (not all) people should man up to why they do it instead of sugar coating it with bs. I've seen a hunt first hand and the dogs were completely out of control, the people seemed very primal (not sure if thats the correct word here) and it all seemed very barbaric. & a fox was caught and it did not die quickly or peacefully or quietly. Many of you are saying how else would we keep the population down but are also saying that alot of the time the fox gets away - which one is it? Either fox hunting keeps the population down or else the fox gets away the majority of the time which i would then conclude that fox hunting is done for sport.


But it was you that first quoted me and it would be rude not to reply. Just for the record I haven't said I support fox hunting.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Many of you are saying how else would we keep the population down but are also saying that alot of the time the fox gets away - which one is it? Either fox hunting keeps the population down or else the fox gets away the majority of the time which i would then conclude that fox hunting is done for sport.


So have you ideas to keep the population down? There are many hunts across the country.. Usually a sat/sunday morning. Riders nd hounds are out for the day.. sometimes they don't even see a fox.. sometimes they will chase a fox and not catch it.. Sometimes there will be a chase and the fox is caught and killed..

It is the weaker and old that tend to be got.

Do you live in the counrtyside? have you seen what foxes can do?

Have you seen a fox suffer after its been shot and left to run round in agony cause the wound wasn't fatal?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Yes it includes all mammals except rats and rabbits


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hawksport said:


> But it was you that first quoted me and it would be rude not to reply. Just for the record I haven't said I support fox hunting.


Hawksport.. You haven't said you support it. And neither have I. :~)

You have to be very careful on these forums as someone gets there back and before you know it people have read what you put and read it how they want to read it..
:~)


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> We have a conscience.... We all have our own opinion. This is why its so hard to agree on what to do..
> I understand hunting the weak and old get killed..
> 
> Whether it be hunting rats, rabbits foxes and all the other species that cause us a problem how would we sort this problem?
> ...


Yeah. I think for me hunting is just the worst 'method' I could think of and I think shooting would be more efficient at actually targeting those who do damage. I know of farmers who stay up at night with their rifle waiting for the fox who comes on their land and does damage. Two usually kill them outright, but if I'm honest I only know a couple who shoot them that way and the chap a couple miles away, no idea what the rest do at all.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> Hawksport.. You haven't said you support it. And neither have I. :~)
> 
> You have to be very careful on these forums as someone gets there back and before you know it people have read what you put and read it how they want to read it..
> :~)


So true, if anyone wants to ask my view I will tell them but it will be a single post answer with no debate.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Tinsley said:


> Yeah. I think for me hunting is just the worst 'method' I could think of and I think shooting would be more efficient at actually targeting those who do damage. I know of farmers who stay up at night with their rifle waiting for the fox who comes on their land and does damage. He usually kills them outright, but if I'm honest I only know a couple who shoot them that way and the chap a couple miles away, no idea what the rest do at all.


They usually have to pay for a chap to come and do it.. Can you imagine.. farmers are up early in the morn working there butts off all day for pittance, then staying up all night to kill the bleeder that keeps stealing his animals..

We used to have a rat man come to the farm.. I am from a beef farm.. But my horses were on a farm that grew cereal... They had to come and shoot the rats or bring the dogs in cause there is no safe way to keep a few thousand ton of cereal.. Rats are all over it weeing and pooing in it.. yuk..
A man used to come and shoot the pigeons too.. When they used to overtake the barns....


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Tinsley said:


> Yeah. I think for me hunting is just the worst 'method' I could think of and I think shooting would be more efficient at actually targeting those who do damage. I know of farmers who stay up at night with their rifle waiting for the fox who comes on their land and does damage. Two usually kill them outright, but if I'm honest I only know a couple who shoot them that way and the chap a couple miles away, no idea what the rest do at all.


Snares are far worse than hunting


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Snares are far worse than hunting


Fair play never thought of those. We have them in the church yards round here but not seen them anywhere else that I remember, probably used more far out. I couldn't classify one as being worse than the other I don't think.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

rona said:


> Snares are far worse than hunting


I agree whole heartedly.. An animal will chew a limb off to get out of a snare..


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Tinsley said:


> Fair play never thought of those. We have them in the church yards round here but not seen them anywhere else I don't think.


It's something I have never understood. Thousands of people get up in arms about a few foxes killed quickly by a few hounds and millions of animals are being caught in snares, a good percentage of them suffering hours of agony before they die, and hardly anybody says a thing


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> So have you ideas to keep the population down? There are many hunts across the country.. Usually a sat/sunday morning. Riders nd hounds are out for the day.. sometimes they don't even see a fox.. sometimes they will chase a fox and not catch it.. Sometimes there will be a chase and the fox is caught and killed..
> 
> It is the weaker and old that tend to be got.
> 
> ...


My family live in the countryside. They have chickens, ducks, horses, outdoor pet bunnies ect. Only one bunny has been killed in their new area (which is abundant with foxes) in three years. Maybe they just take more precautions than most to ensure foxes don't get to their animals? They fully understand that it is their job to protect them, not their job to kill a wild animal who acts on sheer instinct. I never said that foxes should be shot. I have however seen a fox make the most awful noise as it tried to escape from a pack of out of control dogs, almost escape just to be torn apart. If the majority of the time a fox isn't caught then it doesn't keep the population down does it? It doesn't provide food for anyone? It results in a thrill for the hunter at the prospect of terifying an animal out of its wits. I'm not entirely sure how the population would be kept down i would have to have a proper think about it. I do know that fox hunting clearly doesn't do much at all. I mean you even say the old and the weak that get caught, not the young healthy ones who are a bigger 'threat' as such. So in essence, fox hunting does nothing to lower the population, its done as a rather sick sport. I also know that although we humans clearly have population problems the answer is not to hunt some down and watch them be ripped apart. x


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

rona said:


> It's something I have never understood. Thousands of people get up in arms about a few foxes killed quickly by a few hounds and millions of animals are being caught in snares, a good percentage of them suffering hours of agony before they die, and hardly anybody says a thing


I've seen more foxes who have got away than I have animals in snares which is why I don't know which is worse. They have them set up in the local church yard around all the graves and I never knew why. I wrote to the vicar and asked why when we were meant to love all of God's creatures and he told me that some are vermin and we can do what we want with those.

What places use snares a lot still? Only asking because I think the only places I've seen them set up are the church yards, I've not seen them anywhere else around here that I remember.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

rona said:


> It's something I have never understood. Thousands of people get up in arms about a few foxes killed quickly by a few hounds and millions of animals are being caught in snares, a good percentage of them suffering hours of agony before they die, and hardly anybody says a thing


Well i'm not one of those people. I stand firmly against all forms of such cruelty, i don't pick and choose because it's only a few of such. Snares are horrific and unbelievably dangerous to all walks of life in my opinion. x


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## Helloween19 (Jan 20, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> So have you ideas to keep the population down? There are many hunts across the country.. Usually a sat/sunday morning. Riders nd hounds are out for the day.. sometimes they don't even see a fox.. sometimes they will chase a fox and not catch it.. Sometimes there will be a chase and the fox is caught and killed..
> 
> It is the weaker and old that tend to be got.
> 
> ...


Why do we need to keep the populations down though? Why is it up to us? Nature is normally pretty good at stopping populations getting huge, unless you've got some crazy invasive species. 
I do think fox hunting is probably one of the least cruel methods of keeping the pops down, but like I said before, I don't see why it's really much to do with us...


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I don't like hunting if it's for sport. That doesn't just mean cute furry animals, I hate it when it's fish etc.

If you are hunting for food then that I can deal with.

And I agree that farmers need to protect their livestock as they in turn provide us with food.


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## kelseye (Aug 16, 2009)

before people start saying its crule why dont they turn there attention to other things like zoo's why trap animals in cages and limit them just to please the public .
hunting is a way of life as is fishing as is rabbitin its been around for years many of our british trates will be woshed away soon shame realy next they will be banning horses racing then!!!

also people who have cats why let them out if they are just going to kill the birds some people need to get a crip on things and hunting was not a bad sport what so ever


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Helloween19 said:


> Why do we need to keep the populations down though? Why is it up to us? Nature is normally pretty good at stopping populations getting huge, unless you've got some crazy invasive species.
> I do think fox hunting is probably one of the least cruel methods of keeping the pops down, but like I said before, I don't see why it's really much to do with us...


Because there isn't nature anymore


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Tinsley said:


> I've seen more foxes who have got away than I have animals in snares which is why I don't know which is worse. They have them set up in the local church yard around all the graves and I never knew why. I wrote to the vicar and asked why when we were meant to love all of God's creatures and he told me that some are vermin and we can do what we want with those.
> 
> What places use snares a lot still? Only asking because I think the only places I've seen them set up are the church yards, I've not seen them anywhere else around here that I remember.


Most of the time a snare wouldn't be put in a visible location or near to public footpaths. Many missing cats have probably ended up in a snare.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

you can talk all day you wont change anything man has allways hunted and well continue to do so:thumbup:


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

rona said:


> Most of the time a snare wouldn't be put in a visible location or near to public footpaths. Many missing cats have probably ended up in a snare.


That's not nice :nonod:

Not sure who uses them is it farmers of certain farms or not farmers etc? There are a few who let us readily go on their land and another who's land I go on with the farmer's wife and I've not come across any but maybe its because its just not something those use. Are they very common still or have they got less so, do you know..?


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

kelseye said:


> before people start saying its crule why dont they turn there attention to other things like zoo's why trap animals in cages and limit them just to please the public .
> hunting is a way of life as is fishing as is rabbitin its been around for years many of our british trates will be woshed away soon shame realy next they will be banning horses racing then!!!
> 
> also people who have cats why let them out if they are just going to kill the birds some people need to get a crip on things and hunting was not a bad sport what so ever


If you would like to start another thread on the above then i'm sure many people would be happy to give their views. However, this thread is about hunting. We are living in a modern society and I think we need to accept that certain British traits should stay in the history books. Hunting is not a way of life, it's a choice. Cats that can actually catch and kill birds are very instinctive, as much as most of them are pets alot are very undomesticated to a degree. Are you saying it's instinctive to a human to hunt? x


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

borderer said:


> you can talk all day you wont change anything man has allways hunted and well continue to do so:thumbup:


You see that's where your wrong. People talking and debating and standing their ground resulted in hunting being against our laws. Apologies but i'm not one of those people who sit back and say theres nothing that can be done so lets just accept it.


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## Helloween19 (Jan 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Because there isn't nature anymore


Not sure I'd agree with that! I know we have changed the countryside a great deal, but that doesn't really change the fact that there will be factors which would limit the population of foxes and alot of other species which would be considered pests such as food, competition, diseise etc. There are animals in this country whos number we don't try to control and we aren't being over run by them!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

There are other things that have to be looked at here aswell...

Ok so if there are no hunts a farmer will have to pay someone to come and cull the animals...

But a farmer knows a hunt will pay to go over his land.. And the hunt take the farmers fallen stock and the farmer gets paid for this aswell.. The fallen stock gets fed to the hounds.. 
The hunt have a club and members pay towards the club.. which is generally about £300.00 per person a year.
On a general hunt your looking between 10 people to upto a hundred loonies on horses waiting for that all exciting sound of the horn..

When hunting was banned the hunt stopped taking the fallen stock to show the government what can happen..
who then picks up the fallen stock.. The carcass is left rotting on the yard as nothing can be done with it or the farmer then has to pay to have this fallen stock removed.. 
Do you know how much it cost me to have my sons pony removed??? £300.00 and I am talking a small pony.. I rang the council to see what my options were.. i had 48 hrs to remove it or they would bill me up to £500.00
So you can imagine how much it would cost to have the many cows and sheep and pigs that die naturally..


This autamatically has an impact on the farmer... You see its all these loonies on their horses that help keep the farmer going.. And I think you will find all these loonies aren't just country side folk.. There are a hell of a lot of people from the cities who also indulge in this behaviour..

A lot of these people aren't interested in a fox being caught they just enjoy galloping around the counrtyside.. And im afraid you are not allowed to be galloping over farmers fields with out being part of a hunt.(unless you own a great deal of land) Now there are drag hunt.. But I know many start of on the drag and the drag can turn in to a fox hunt... Fox hounds were bred to kill! its there instinct to do this...

Im not trying to tell you its good or bad.. im just trying to show you the ban hasn't just affected the fox. Its also affecting the farmers pockets.. and I will think you will all find everything does tend to come down to money..

\sorry bout all that I was just trying to get points across.. sorry if it doesn't make sense to you all.. :~)


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> My family live in the countryside. They have chickens, ducks, horses, outdoor pet bunnies ect. Only one bunny has been killed in their new area (which is abundant with foxes) in three years. Maybe they just take more precautions than most to ensure foxes don't get to their animals? They fully understand that it is their job to protect them, not their job to kill a wild animal who acts on sheer instinct. I never said that foxes should be shot. I have however seen a fox make the most awful noise as it tried to escape from a pack of out of control dogs, almost escape just to be torn apart. If the majority of the time a fox isn't caught then it doesn't keep the population down does it? It doesn't provide food for anyone? It results in a thrill for the hunter at the prospect of terifying an animal out of its wits. I'm not entirely sure how the population would be kept down i would have to have a proper think about it. I do know that fox hunting clearly doesn't do much at all. I mean you even say the old and the weak that get caught, not the young healthy ones who are a bigger 'threat' as such. So in essence, fox hunting does nothing to lower the population, its done as a rather sick sport. I also know that although we humans clearly have population problems the answer is not to hunt some down and watch them be ripped apart. x


IMHO that is a brilliant attitude to take.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

borderer said:


> you can talk all day you wont change anything man has allways hunted and well continue to do so:thumbup:


:thumbup: Its true.. there is always a loop hole.. its like the docking of dogs...
The majority of the time it comes down to money.. i think?


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> You see that's where your wrong. People talking and debating and standing their ground resulted in hunting being against our laws. Apologies but i'm not one of those people who sit back and say theres nothing that can be done so lets just accept it.


yes its against the law but it still goes on so nothing changed


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I am all against hunting foxes.... they often dont die as quickly and are being ripped apart alive. And just because there are other cruelties going on it wont make fox hunting anymore acceptable.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

If it's not instinct to hunt where do I get it from?


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

I get what you're saying momentofmadness and in these times most farmers are barely scraping by... but imagine if there was no such thing as hunting EVER, it just never occurred to anyone to hunt for sport. What would the farmer do then? The prices to take away fallen stock would still be the same probably and there would still be foxes about.

I can't advocate the killing of foxes just so the farmer can get some extra cash and his fallen stock taken away for free. For me, it's morally wrong.


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Natik said:


> I am all against hunting foxes.... they often dont die as quickly and are being ripped apart alive. And just because there are other cruelties going on it wont make fox hunting anymore acceptable.


foxy ripped my animals apart i find that not acceptable


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

hawksport said:


> If it's not instinct to hunt where do I get it from?


its in our blood mate:thumbup:


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Natik said:


> I am all against hunting foxes.... they often dont die as quickly and are being ripped apart alive. And just because there are other cruelties going on it wont make fox hunting anymore acceptable.


This is what I've seen. We'd be out on the horses the day after a hunt and there would be a fox stumbling along a hedgerow in awful shape. I wouldn't even describe in words what the last one looked like, I have no idea how the poor blighter was still alive let alone up and walking :nonod:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

borderer said:


> foxy ripped my animals apart i find that not acceptable


u should secure ur animals then to prevent such things ....


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Tinsley said:


> That's not nice :nonod:
> 
> Not sure who uses them is it farmers of certain farms or not farmers etc? There are a few who let us readily go on their land and another who's land I go on with the farmer's wife and I've not come across any but maybe its because its just not something those use. Are they very common still or have they got less so, do you know..?


They are mainly used by gamekeepers, along with Fenn traps

Google Image Result for http://www.antisnaring.org.uk/assets/images/rabbit_fenn_trap.jpg


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

borderer said:


> its in our blood mate:thumbup:


My parents and grandparents never hunted, they never took me to game fairs but at 13 I was in the church yard with a bag of ferrets and a bag of nets.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

momentofmadness said:


> There are other things that have to be looked at here aswell...
> 
> Ok so if there are no hunts a farmer will have to pay someone to come and cull the animals...
> 
> ...


very good post. I completely understand where you are coming from. I do believe there is a way around it but it would involve the governement removing their hands from the countrys money and spreading it out amongst issues such as these. Sadly, i can't see that happening anytime soon. I will never agree with fox hunting, but i respect you for the points that you make. I genuinely do not have the answers to everything and any ideas i have are just that - ideas. But i'm sure you can understand that depsite that, i won't be jumping on a horse for a hunt anytime soon lol. I could be completely wrong but i didn't think many farmers had been severely affected scince the ban came into effect, but then i don't know a great abundance personally so i may well be wrong. I also am fully aware that it isn't just countryside dwellers who take part in fox hunts, i've known a banker who participated lol. However, he isn't a good example - he done it for all the wrong reasons. x


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## Guest (May 17, 2010)

Natik said:


> u should secure ur animals then to prevent such things ....


i shot him problem solved:thumbup:


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

When I lived in England we had a small holding with Chickens and Ducks and a couple of horses. Despite there being foxes in the area we never once suffered a problem with them. According to the neighbouring Farmer the Horses keep them away.
Nevertheless, folks will always find an excuse for a selfish pastime and as we all know, where blood flows clots form!


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

Right I live on a farm in the countryside way back into the sticks. Now for as much as I am for the 'helping the farmer' post I do understand this side of it BUT on the other hand, the hunt is no more than a bunch of social climbers.. they dont do it because they want to 'help the farmers' or to 'keep vermin down' they do it because its a social event. They dont care if a horse falls, breaks its leg and has to be shot, they dont care if dogs get tangled in barbed wire fences and are in serious pain and they dont care that a live animal has been ripped to shreds and had to endure 10 mins + of unberable pain as 50 dogs rip it to peices. 

I was once in my field with my horses, minding my own buisness with a friend showing her a new horse. The hunt wanted to come on my land and I polietly said No, sorry. That was it, yet they went into the field next door and started shouting abuse, calling me every foul name possible because I wouldnt allow them to come into my land, now surely its MY land, not theres.. I decide who goes on what area of it. 

A fox once ran through my field and the lost the scent because I have 20 acres that they couldnt access to get to it, by the time they went round it had gone and they turned back to find another. 

When you watch these people they just stand on the horses in a big group, with wine and 'stuck up' chit chat and they charge horses over seriously dangerous hedges with barb etc 

If it does get legalised they still wont be coming anywhere near my land or my horses


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

RachyBobs said:


> Right I live on a farm in the countryside way back into the sticks. Now for as much as I am for the 'helping the farmer' post I do understand this side of it BUT on the other hand, the hunt is no more than a bunch of social climbers.. they dont do it because they want to 'help the farmers' or to 'keep vermin down' they do it because its a social event. They dont care if a horse falls, breaks its leg and has to be shot, they dont care if dogs get tangled in barbed wire fences and are in serious pain and they dont care that a live animal has been ripped to shreds and had to endure 10 mins + of unberable pain as 50 dogs rip it to peices.
> 
> I was once in my field with my horses, minding my own buisness with a friend showing her a new horse. The hunt wanted to come on my land and I polietly said No, sorry. That was it, yet they went into the field next door and started shouting abuse, calling me every foul name possible because I wouldnt allow them to come into my land, now surely its MY land, not theres.. I decide who goes on what area of it.
> 
> ...


I want to come and live on your land


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## Captain.Charisma (May 24, 2009)

GillyR said:


> I can not understand why poeple are in favour of hunting to be legal again :frown:
> 
> It is cruel.
> 
> If you support the come back, do you also approve of bull fighting?


The Torys are in charge now, so it wouldnt suprise if either came into charge. People are in favour of it, because there sick !


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Captain.Charisma said:


> The Torys are in charge now, so it wouldnt suprise if either came into charge. People are in favour of it, because there sick !


Personally I don't think it has anything remotely to do with a mental affliction.
It's more the spoilt brat privileged classes still believing they can do anything they wish when they wish and is hardly representative of what one might call social reform/progress. It seems to illustrate that the class system in England is still alive and kicking anything that gets under its feet!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't mind hunting or fishing for food it's far better than most animals have to endure in intensive farms. Those are cruel in my opinion not someone with a shot gun/trained dog whatever. I don't like foxhunting I don't see it as a reliable population control method and it isn't right for something to be ripped to pieces by a foxhound pack. Foxes do need to be controlled I agree with that but we need another way of doing it.


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

hawksport said:


> A pack of wolves would hunt down an elk or what ever in the same way a pack of hounds would a stag.


i tried not to look at this thread again but here i am!

thats a load of rubbish aswell!, a pack of dogs dont asses and test the ungulates for the weak animals like a pack of wolves do! a human chooses a stag! i dare say they look for one which appears fit and in its prime for a nice long chase! a chase which can last a couple of hours or even longer, eventually the poor exhausted animal will often find water to stay in, the few animals that do escape often die from shock or injuries sustained trying to escape the pack!now that to me is barbaric!


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Like i said on a thread on this topic before;
> 
> THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
> and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
> ...


I saw this post, including a famous quote by Pastor Martin Niemöller, but it's context seems to have been missed.

Martin was commenting on the fact that people in Nazi Germany allowed the civil liberties of other humans to be taken away group by group. Using that quote would only make sense if you were in favour of fox hunting, like so...

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Fox Hunters,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Fox Hunter.

THEN THEY CAME for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...." etc.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

On the issue of whether they should "bring back fox hunting" though...I don't think that's the point here. The government have said that the ban clearly hasn't worked...which it hasn't.

Sitting in a house somewhere in suburbia, it's very easy to think that the day "they banned fox hunting" was a great day. We picture all of these posh people simply stabling their horses, kennelling their dogs and finding something else to do like the Telegraph crossword.

Unfortunately, that's not the reality.

Within months, the dogs and horses were back out, this time "eagle spotting". This activity is not against the law. Sometimes, the dogs catch a fox or other wild animal. "Oh my officer, we were out eagle spotting and unfortunately, our dogs spotted a wild animal and chased it down. We tried to stop them but they had killed it before we could catch up. It's very unfortunate".

It's costing a lot of tax payers money to fund police investigations that lead nowhere as the hunting classes close ranks. This is the reality. The current ban isn't working.

In other news, pitbulls have been banned since the 1990's, yet a human child was killed in Liverpool by one just months ago. That ban isn't working either. More than a few on this forum suggest "blaming the deed, not the breed" (i.e. repeal the ban) despite the general public being totally against that idea too.

Food for thought?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

classixuk said:


> On the issue of whether they should "bring back fox hunting" though...I don't think that's the point here. The government have said that the ban clearly hasn't worked...which it hasn't.
> 
> Sitting in a house somewhere in suburbia, it's very easy to think that the day "they banned fox hunting" was a great day. We picture all of these posh people simply stabling their horses, kennelling their dogs and finding something else to do like the Telegraph crossword.
> 
> ...


But hunting didn't work either, in that it did nothing to control fox populations. I think a lot of people view the ban as being better because it is against the law to kill a fox on a hunt, and morally that sits better with people than if they are readily allowed to go out and participate in that kind of activity. I don't think its about how well enforced it is. It will never be something easy to enforce, just like not hunting deer etc with dogs I think you aren't allowed to do either, that is not policed properly. But I really think for most its a matter of the ban being present sits better with them morally.

I do think this highlights how hunts need to be responsible for their dogs though. Apparently they cannot be held responsible no matter what damage a hound does, which I think is wrong. That has been brought up with the idea of the ban being repealed, and I think that is definitely something which needs correcting. Then maybe they would care a little more about training them not to stray and keeping them off busy roads too. Even my local hunt are cr*p with theirs 

I don't know anyone who expects the hounds to stay kennelled and the horses to stay stabled. They just hope they will drag hunt instead, which many do successfully


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i tried not to look at this thread again but here i am!
> 
> thats a load of rubbish aswell!, a pack of dogs dont asses and test the ungulates for the weak animals like a pack of wolves do! a human chooses a stag! i dare say they look for one which appears fit and in its prime for a nice long chase! a chase which can last a couple of hours or even longer, eventually the poor exhausted animal will often find water to stay in, the few animals that do escape often die from shock or injuries sustained trying to escape the pack!now that to me is barbaric!


You say a pack of dogs do not assess the weak from the healthy?

I no my dogs do, I'm not talking hunting elk or stags or anything, but when there are 20+ rabbits on a field, they pick out one and go for that one, the only time they move onto another is if one was to run straight infront of them.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i tried not to look at this thread again but here i am!
> 
> thats a load of rubbish aswell!, a pack of dogs dont asses and test the ungulates for the weak animals like a pack of wolves do! a human chooses a stag! i dare say they look for one which appears fit and in its prime for a nice long chase! a chase which can last a couple of hours or even longer, eventually the poor exhausted animal will often find water to stay in, the few animals that do escape often die from shock or injuries sustained trying to escape the pack!now that to me is barbaric!


Well after hundreds of years of taking the fittest deer and leaving the weak ones to breed they should be able to get around the ban by leaving the horses and hounds at home and running after them on foot


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

classixuk said:


> I saw this post, including a famous quote by Pastor Martin Niemöller, but it's context seems to have been missed.
> 
> Martin was commenting on the fact that people in Nazi Germany allowed the civil liberties of other humans to be taken away group by group. Using that quote would only make sense if you were in favour of fox hunting, like so...
> 
> ...


this really is a lame argument though! the law needs to be tightened for those who break it not repealed!

what about the law against dog fighting, theres plenty of that still going on maybe we should repeal that then

and to quote Brian May .."If the law against child molestation was found to be unenforceable, what would we do? Repeal the law? I dont think so."


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Well after hundreds of years of taking the fittest deer and leaving the weak ones to breed they should be able to get around the ban by leaving the horses and hounds at home and running after them on foot


but thats the just point isnt it they could never select the weakest animals like the wolf can even if they wanted to

if deer have to be culled it should be done humanely as possible by a marksman!!!!


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Shamen said:


> this really is a lame argument though! the law needs to be tightened for those who break it not repealed!
> 
> what about the law against dog fighting, theres plenty of that still going on maybe we should repeal that then
> 
> and to quote Brian May .."If the law against child molestation was found to be unenforceable, what would we do? Repeal the law? I dont think so."


The only way to enforce the law though would be to make the killing of all foxes illegal, as they do with swans.

Are we in a position as a country right now to spend the money on enforcing this?

OAP's are losing their sheltered wardens. Public libraries are about to be cut. Public swimming pools are about to be drained. The country needs to save money and save money fast, lest we end up like Greece.

The only laws we will see passed soon are the ones that equal either a big juicy fine or get you off the government payroll.


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

classixuk said:


> The only way to enforce the law though would be to make the killing of all foxes illegal, as they do with swans.
> 
> Are we in a position as a country right now to spend the money on enforcing this?
> 
> ...


sorry but it has to be consigned to the history books whatever the cost like all the other Blood sports!!!


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## Paul Dunham (Apr 1, 2010)

Starlite said:


> without things such as bull fighting we wouldnt have our bull breeds tho,
> 
> i hunt rabbits for the pot, theyre delish


Thats's not strictly true. Yes, there wouldn't be the fighting breeds we have today, but the principle reason we have them is for food like most other domestic breeds.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> but thats the just point isnt it they could never select the weakest animals like the wolf can even if they wanted to
> Actualy they do
> if deer have to be culled it should be done humanely as possible by a marksman!!!!


I haven't said it shouldn't be. Read back through my posts there's not one that supports either fox hunting or stag hunting


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> You say a pack of dogs do not assess the weak from the healthy?
> 
> I no my dogs do, I'm not talking hunting elk or stags or anything, but when there are 20+ rabbits on a field, they pick out one and go for that one, the only time they move onto another is if one was to run straight infront of them.


and now you have a smaller but healthier population of rabbits


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

hawksport said:


> and now you have a smaller but healthier population of rabbits


Especially if you eliminate all the Myxi ones. :thumbup:


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

Shamen said:


> i tried not to look at this thread again but here i am!
> 
> thats a load of rubbish aswell!, a pack of dogs dont asses and test the ungulates for the weak animals like a pack of wolves do! a human chooses a stag! i dare say they look for one which appears fit and in its prime for a nice long chase! a chase which can last a couple of hours or even longer, eventually the poor exhausted animal will often find water to stay in, the few animals that do escape often die from shock or injuries sustained trying to escape the pack!now that to me is barbaric!


Not that I know, but I would believe this to be wrong. A large well grown stag is worth an awful lot of money to be stalked and shot with a rifle, but they don't usually do this until they are past their prime 
One thing I do know, is that most (not all) field sports people respect their quarry and would alway like to keep the best animals to continue breeding and cull only the weaker beasts


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> You say a pack of dogs do not assess the weak from the healthy?
> .


no they chase whatever stag the human chooses for them to chase



hawksport said:


> I haven't said it shouldn't be. Read back through my posts there's not one that supports either fox hunting or stag hunting


no probs i enjoy a good debate


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

rona said:


> Not that I know, but I would believe this to be wrong. A large well grown stag is worth an awful lot of money to be stalked and shot with a rifle, but they don't usually do this until they are past their prime
> One thing I do know, is that most (not all) field sports people respect their quarry and would alway like to keep the best animals to continue breeding and cull only the weaker beasts


i disagree totally Stag hunters with hounds do not respect their quarry if they did they wouldnt cause it so much suffering.

even the National Trust banned it on their land before the hunting law was passed.....

The story begins in 1997 when Professor Patrick Bateson - one of the country's foremost animal behaviour experts - was asked by the National Trust to study whether hunted deer suffer.

He concluded they did, especially in the final stages of the chase.

As a result the National Trust banned stag hunting on its land.


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

Shamen said:


> i disagree totally Stag hunters with hounds do not respect their quarry if they did they wouldnt cause it so much suffering.
> 
> even the National Trust banned it on their land before the hunting law was passed.....
> 
> ...


That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
If hunters always went for the best animal, then they would eventually ruin their own sport.
I was talking generally about field sports and not a particular section.
I also cannot see a point to stag or fox hunting. I'm just not as fervent about it as some and like to try and see all angles of a debate, no matter if I agree or not


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm against it done for a sport, but can understand when it's pest control and for food.

I do not approve of 20+ plus dogs with 10+ men chasing one fox, it's ridiculous and very stupid and nothing but a blood sport.

I'm against bull baiting, badger baiting, dog fighting, cockerel fighting, stallion fighting etc it's unnecessary and cruel.

Maya often does her own pest control of rabbit around some of the places I go, I used to be botherd by it but I'm so used to it now and after many of the land owners telling me I'm doing them a favor as some of the rabbits have myxomatosis so probably could do with being put out of their misery.

I am a meat eater, although I only eat chicken or pork as I have no taste for any other meat. I have seen all what happens in a slaughter house and does make me sick but I enjoy chicken and can't go very long with out it. I could never be a vegan either due to my love of milk and cheese.


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

rona said:


> That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
> If hunters always went for the best animal, then they would eventually ruin their own sport.
> I was talking generally about field sports and not a particular section.
> I also cannot see a point to stag or fox hunting. I'm just not as fervent about it as some and like to try and see all angles of a debate, no matter if I agree or not


sorry for the misunderstanding , i was specifically meaning hunting with hounds.

although i have to say where apex predators have been eliminated its been found that ungulates are not as healthy when kept in control by man.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

classixuk said:


> I saw this post, including a famous quote by Pastor Martin Niemöller, but it's context seems to have been missed.
> 
> Martin was commenting on the fact that people in Nazi Germany allowed the civil liberties of other humans to be taken away group by group. Using that quote would only make sense if you were in favour of fox hunting, like so...
> 
> ...


The quote wasn't meant in that context at all lol . I'm fully aware what was being commented on and why it was commented on - Advanced Higher History, Grade A lol . I meant that if we don't stand up for foxes, it'll be dogs next, then black people ect - everything in the world is a pest to someone and there will always be some band of screw balls who believe the culling of the cause of their hatred will make everything all better. Are you saying that because people break a law we should make the crime legal? I mean theres still countless paedophiles with their child pornography ect - should tht just be legalised, the law against it clearly doesn't work? No i don't think so somehow. What we need is a country with a government who has the balls to enforce laws efficiently. x


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

rona said:


> That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
> If hunters always went for the best animal, then they would eventually ruin their own sport.
> I was talking generally about field sports and not a particular section.
> I also cannot see a point to stag or fox hunting. I'm just not as fervent about it as some and like to try and see all angles of a debate, no matter if I agree or not


Completely agree, i am against all forms of hunting but there have been some very valid points raised in this thread and i respect that. I respect someone who will give me a detailed, reasonable explanation and who stand their ground than someone who hits me with some bull . How is your dog who had the cruciate operation? xx


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> The quote wasn't meant in that context at all lol . I'm fully aware what was being commented on and why it was commented on - Advanced Higher History, Grade A lol . I meant that if we don't stand up for foxes, it'll be dogs next, then black people ect -


So are you saying that if we don't stop the privileged classes hunting foxes, they might move on to hunting black people? :confused1:

How do you jump from foxes to dogs and then immediately afterwards black people? LOL You have some crazy warped brain!

I'm half chuckling here with a vision of Floella Benjamin clinging on to Big Ted as she vaults the country hedgerows in her escape from the hunt! LOL

What have you been smokin'?

:lol:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

classixuk said:


> So are you saying that if we don't stop the privileged classes hunting foxes, they might move on to hunting black people? :confused1:
> 
> How do you jump from foxes to dogs and then immediately afterwards black people? LOL You have some crazy warped brain!
> 
> ...


I meant eventually if you don't stand up for those who can't help themselves then sooner or later the looneys of soceity will move on to more of these 'pests' in their eyes. Of course i don't mean hunting black people, but persecuting animals or people that are classed as an issue in some peoples eyes. Of course it's a big step but in essence, it's what it could lead to. Foxes/wild animals are a pest to people - hunt them. Dogs are a pest to people - ban them/cull them. Immigrants are a pest to people - jail them, deport them, victimise them. You see where i'm going? You allow people to 'pick on' the helpless then you open the gateway for them. There was no need to be rude lol . x


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I meant eventually if you don't stand up for those who can't help themselves then sooner or later the looneys of soceity will move on to more of these 'pests' in their eyes. Of course i don't mean hunting black people, but persecuting animals or people that are classed as an issue in some peoples eyes. Of course it's a big step but in essence, it's what it could lead to. Foxes/wild animals are a pest to people - hunt them. Dogs are a pest to people - ban them/cull them. Immigrants are a pest to people - jail them, deport them, victimise them. You see where i'm going? You allow people to 'pick on' the helpless then you open the gateway for them. There was no need to be rude lol . x


Nope. I'm sorry. I still don't see where you are coming from. I'm not aware of any black people who can't help themselves, or who are viewed as pests either. In history (as you well know) black native Africans were viewed as a commodity rather than a pest.

I just thought it was wild that you made the leap from foxes and dogs to black people in particular! LOL It tickled me to see it.


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## Captain.Charisma (May 24, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> I'm against it done for a sport, but can understand when it's pest control and for food.
> 
> I do not approve of 20+ plus dogs with 10+ men chasing one fox, it's ridiculous and very stupid and nothing but a blood sport.
> 
> ...


Well said its for blood thirsty savagers.


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

classixuk said:


> Nope. I'm sorry. I still don't see where you are coming from. I'm not aware of any black people who can't help themselves, or who are viewed as pests either. In history (as you well know) black native Africans were viewed as a commodity rather than a pest.
> 
> I just thought it was wild that you made the leap from foxes and dogs to black people in particular! LOL It tickled me to see it.


glad i'm not the only one classix


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

classixuk said:


> So are you saying that if we don't stop the privileged classes hunting foxes, they might move on to hunting black people? :confused1:
> 
> How do you jump from foxes to dogs and then immediately afterwards black people? LOL You have some crazy warped brain!
> 
> ...


Ha ha ha ha i loved Floella lol....

Made me chuckle too.....although remeber the signs 'no dogs, no irish, no blacks'..... maybe in slavery they were a 'commodity' in more recent times, viewed as many things. 
The word 'pet' comes actually from the slave trade....pointless to this thread lol, interesting comments and views.....i shall go back in my box. :thumbup:


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

I am repeating myself as I have posted this before. I am unconvinced about its effectiveness as a method of pest control. 

'Traditional lowland fox hunting makes only a comparatively small contribution to pest control and, overall, hunting with dogs makes only a minor contribution (The Burns Report suggests that hunting with dogs accounts for only 6% of the foxes that die in England and Wales every year, and at paragraph 5.8 his report quotes a study suggesting that in West Norfolk only 3% of foxes culled were killed by methods involving foxhounds). Around 4 times as many foxes were killed by shooting as by hunting with dogs prior to the Hunting Act 2004.' Source: Defra

So, aside from foxhunting being a bizarre almost ritualistic activity that we've inherited, if we are talking about effective methods of fox control then foxing with a lamp and rifle is by far a more successful method and makes a greater number of kills. Please note I am not necessarily advocating lamping either I am merely presenting a different perspective of looking at things - foxhunting with hounds as a relatively ineffective method of fox population control. 

I personally think that if you really must kill foxes you should be duty bound to do it in the quickest most humane manner possible and my view is that I don't think hunting with hounds is quick, humane or even effective. I think also just because something is 'tradition' it doesn't necessarily mean that it has an automatic right be continued and not to be subject to scrutiny or review.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I actually think that the 'hunters' who hunted the fox were sad! Who on earth thought of this:

''Oh i say, Rupert old chap lets go and chase a fox''.... ''What a frightfully good idea Bernard lets take the whole pack of dogs and horses too make a day of it''

Errrrrrr.. why not pick on someone your own size! Go wrestling or cage fighting? Oh no thats right becasue you would get your ass whooped and it wouldn't make you look 'hard as nails''  

Killing a small mammal is sooooo much better. Never mind the fact it is 10000% cruel. Sick, twisted minds  

How about the humans start doing this to stray dogs and cats that kill baby chicks/ducklings/rabbits from our yards?? They are classed as ''pests'' too in that respect................OH NO thats right we LOVE dogs and cats because we OWN them.

Anyone guessed i find it sickening that we live in a society to this day that some people AGREE with this blood thirsty downright disgusting ''sport'' Which in fact it is NOT because in sport both sides are equal.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

kaz_f said:


> I am repeating myself as I have posted this before. I am unconvinced about its effectiveness as a method of pest control.
> 
> 'Traditional lowland fox hunting makes only a comparatively small contribution to pest control and, overall, hunting with dogs makes only a minor contribution (The Burns Report suggests that hunting with dogs accounts for only 6% of the foxes that die in England and Wales every year, and at paragraph 5.8 his report quotes a study suggesting that in West Norfolk only 3% of foxes culled were killed by methods involving foxhounds). Around 4 times as many foxes were killed by shooting as by hunting with dogs prior to the Hunting Act 2004.' Source: Defra
> 
> ...


If it was about pest control they wouldn't have had to import foxes when ours had nearly all gone.


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

hawksport said:


> I will never understand how anyone can be so against hunting but be perfectly happy to have someone else kill an animal so their cat or dog can eat it


Because there are rules on humane farming of meat.

Hunting encourages hounds to rip apart and animal. A fox runes terrified is chased into the ground by terriers...vermin or not theer are ways to control a pet humanely. How is this humane?

Isn't fox hunting to protect livestock such as sheep?

cue music "isn't ironic...don't you think" la la la


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)




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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

I think the sport is barbaric. I have never understood why people get a kick out of chasing a scared, misunderstanding animal. Making it hide and then having their dogs rip it to shreds. They have no compassion for anything living.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Buster's Mummy said:


> Because there are rules on humane farming of meat.
> 
> Hunting encourages hounds to rip apart and animal. A fox runes terrified is chased into the ground by terriers...vermin or not theer are ways to control a pet humanely. How is this humane?
> 
> ...


I don't quite understand why you are linking that post to fox hunting. That was posted while we were still talking about hunting generally before it turned into a fox hunting debate.
Take a look back and see if you can find any of my posts supporting hunting foxes with hounds


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## Guest (May 18, 2010)

1. Don't get me wrong I am all up for hunting foxes, rabbits etc to sustain farming and livestock HOWEVER hunting with hounds is disgustingly cruel. If you are going to hunt, make it quick e.g. shotgun. Chasing a fox until it drowns, electrocutes itself on train tracks is inhumane and DISGUSTING!!!

2. I am more up for hunting the real vermin in red jackets total utter scum of the earth. However if you are still convinced foxes/rabbits are vermin there atre better ways to handle it.

3. Holding a scared fox up by its tail is disgusting and I personally would love to see hunters being held up by their manhood and disembowled/skinned alive..now that really would be sport!

Now can someone give me a good reason why hunting is required/acceptable in the 21st century?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No I agree with you on that. They can go drag hunting if they really want to


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## tafwoc (Nov 12, 2009)

Buster's Mummy said:


> 1. Don't get me wrong I am all up for hunting foxes, rabbits etc to sustain farming and livestock HOWEVER hunting with hounds is disgustingly cruel. If you are going to hunt, make it quick e.g. shotgun. Chasing a fox until it drowns, electrocutes itself on train tracks is inhumane and DISGUSTING!!!
> 
> 2. I am more up for hunting the real vermin in red jackets total utter scum of the earth. However if you are still convinced foxes/rabbits are vermin there atre better ways to handle it.
> 
> ...


Totally agree :thumbup:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Now can someone give me a good reason why hunting is required/acceptable in the 21st century

Are you talking about any hunting or hunting foxes with hounds?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Buster's Mummy said:


> Because there are rules on humane farming of meat.
> 
> Hunting encourages hounds to rip apart and animal. A fox runes terrified is chased into the ground by terriers...vermin or not theer are ways to control a pet humanely. How is this humane?
> 
> ...


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## classixuk (Jun 6, 2009)

To be honest Buster's Mummy...I appreciate your passion, really, I do...but I think some of the images you posted (whilst clearly getting your point across) are slightly too graphic for this forum's audience (which includes children still at primary school).

I think it's up to their parents if they are shown images like that. In my opinion, the images of dogs ripping up animals could easily concern an 8 year old that their own pet dog might do the same to their bunny.

Would you consider editing the posts for their sake? We get the point now.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Is this thread about general hunting or just fox hunting?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

GillyR said:


> I can not understand why poeple are in favour of hunting to be legal again :frown:
> 
> It is cruel.
> 
> If you support the come back, do you also approve of bull fighting?





Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Is this thread about general hunting or just fox hunting?


*Going by the Op i think it is about fox hunting.*


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Is this thread about general hunting or just fox hunting?


Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't know. It started as general hunting I think and then I think it turned to fox hunting. Then I think some think that hunting is fox hunting


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Going by the Op i think it is about fox hunting.*


But when the OP says about hunting being legal, this could mean Badger baiting, Hare Coursing or Fox Hunting????

It could also mean rabbit hunting using more than one or two dogs.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> But when the OP says about hunting being legal, this could mean Badger baiting, Hare Coursing or Fox Hunting????
> 
> It could also mean rabbit hunting using more than one or two dogs.


Don't forget mink, and hares with the beagle packs


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Don't forget mink, and hares with the beagle packs


Yep. I think people have just gone off on one about Foxes.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> But when the OP says about hunting being legal, this could mean Badger baiting, Hare Coursing or Fox Hunting????
> 
> It could also mean rabbit hunting using more than one or two dogs.


*I took as fox hunting as the new goverment are talking about making it legal again.I might be wrong though.*


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

classixuk said:


> To be honest Buster's Mummy...I appreciate your passion, really, I do...but I think some of the images you posted (whilst clearly getting your point across) are slightly too graphic for this forum's audience (which includes children still at primary school).
> 
> I think it's up to their parents if they are shown images like that. In my opinion, the images of dogs ripping up animals could easily concern an 8 year old that their own pet dog might do the same to their bunny.
> 
> Would you consider editing the posts for their sake? We get the point now.


Was going to say good post but thats the wrong wording ..... I totally agree with you Classix


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *I took as fox hunting as the new goverment are talking about making it legal again.I might be wrong though.*


But don't they plan to have a "free vote" for fox hunting?

Also the The Hunting Act 2004 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. The effect of the Act is to outlaw hunting with dogs (particularly fox hunting, *but also the hunting of deer, hares and mink and organised hare coursing*) in England and Wales from 18 February 2005. The pursuit of foxes with hounds was banned in Scotland two years earlier under legislation of the devolved Scottish Parliament, while it remains legal in Northern Ireland.

Just so everyone knows whats in the Hunting Ban :thumbup:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> But don't they plan to have a "free vote" for fox hunting?
> 
> Also the The Hunting Act 2004 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. The effect of the Act is to outlaw hunting with dogs (particularly fox hunting, *but also the hunting of deer, hares and mink and organised hare coursing*) in England and Wales from 18 February 2005. The pursuit of foxes with hounds was banned in Scotland two years earlier under legislation of the devolved Scottish Parliament, while it remains legal in Northern Ireland.
> 
> Just so everyone knows whats in the Hunting Ban :thumbup:


*
Well thankyou for that. i've learnt something new today.pmsl:lol::lol:*


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Going by the Op i think it is about fox hunting.*


Yes sorry folk, i did mean hunting for sport, fun :eek6: where there is basically no product at the end. ,,,not food.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Hunting with a shotgun, and killing for food, is, in my view different....taking pleasure from chasing something, and getting exicted about the hunt...i find rather disurbing, and revolting. 

I tell what i dont get ....

I get confused by the hunters arguments...

All the pomp that goes with it..... i would have more respect for a fox hunter to admit they chase with horses and dogs, because of the excitment of the killing of a creature, that wants nothing more to live, like we all do.

But i have come across a few how admit this, admit that it is a good day out....instead they need to jusitfy as pest control....they admit not every hunt results in a kill....so that dont add up either. 

Why are they pests, do they spread diseases (seriously, i dont know) Or is it because they are wild animals, and in order to survive need to kill to eat...??

Also, tradition.....so blinking what ??? it used to be tradition to beat our children, to send them up chimneys and then smoke them out....doesnt mean we still need to do it.


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## Guest (May 19, 2010)

GillyR said:


> Hunting with a shotgun, and killing for food, is, in my view different....taking pleasure from chasing something, and getting exicted about the hunt...i find rather disurbing, and revolting.
> 
> I tell what i dont get ....
> 
> ...


I think you will find that most find the ride and atmosphere of a large field the exciting part, not the kill.
I don't understand why this can't be achieved with drag hunting


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

yep they are pests and do spread diseases 
The fox website | Disease

they kill stock (chickens for instance) indescriminately (not just one for food then but the whole coop if it can.. and it's not for getting later as someone else said on here, if it was they would come back and take them somewhere secure.. they don't come back for more on the same night so it's not for dinner later in the week as they've not 'secured' their kill).

they can kill family pets (rabbits, kittens, puppies) although relatively rare, it's not unheard of
Fox Problems 2; fox poison, fox gassing, free running snares for foxes, laws relating to foxes, foxes and cats

due to the number of foxes killed via mounted/pack hunting is rather insignificant, as noted by the lack of rise of fox numbers since the ban was brought in, culling is not the main goal of most hunts..getting your own back after losing hundreds/thousands of pounds of stock to a fox generally is.

most foxes are controlled by other means guns/snares etc

i don't think it's necessary but it did employ a hell of a lot of people, so could have been managed a lot better during the 'ban' stage.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Thanks owie....

Yeah, the whole coop next door died, i read they kill them all out of panic, as they are all flapping around.....it is a shame, but is nature. 

I know i have to accompany my dogs out at night, in case there is one lurking, and i am sure it would have my baby if it could.


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

hawksport said:


> If it was about pest control they wouldn't have had to import foxes when ours had nearly all gone.


Yep- agreed. It has never really been about pest control lets be honest so when people are defending foxhunting it always baffles me why they use that argument.

If it were about keeping numbers down huntsmen wouldn't say to gamekeepers to stop lamping at nights and to leave the foxes for them. And before anybody says that isn't true - it categorically is, I have witnessed many a conversation like that first hand...


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Hawksport, 
i don't think you quite understand the relationship between hunts and animals. The goal is not to hunt them to extinction (and infact the decline was due to distemper and other problems, not hunting) as that would defeat the purpose and would also HARM the british ecological balance, foxes may be disease-ridden pest (and lets be honest who on here isn't one also?) but they are also important to other wildlife populations.

Apart from anything else, no-one (well hardly anyone) wants to see what happened to the british wolf and boar, happen to british foxes too.

it's all about balance. hunting mounted/pack is anger management.. if the farmers wanted them extinct they would be baiting them or in this day and age going for the genetic solution.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Now we are talking about fox hunting I will say I don't agree with it. I can't see the point in it and it doesn't go with my sense of fair play.
If we were talking about hunting for food, I enjoy watching a dog work cover flush a rabbit and then drop into a down while a hawk flies it. The actual kill is not the part that most people enjoy, in fact most of the best flights are the ones where the rabbit make it to a burrow and if they do good luck to them. A long flight at a rabbit would be 20 seconds most are less than 10, with predator and prey doing what nature intended, that to me is more acceptable than a lifetime in a concrete stall


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

owieprone said:


> Hawksport,
> i don't think you quite understand the relationship between hunts and animals. The goal is not to hunt them to extinction (and infact the decline was due to distemper and other problems, not hunting) as that would defeat the purpose and would also HARM the british ecological balance, foxes may be disease-ridden pest (and lets be honest who on here isn't one also?) but they are also important to other wildlife populations.
> 
> Apart from anything else, no-one (well hardly anyone) wants to see what happened to the british wolf and boar, happen to british foxes too.
> ...


I understand perfectly the relationship between hunts and animals, without conservation there is no hunting. Going back in history when they hunted for pest control the numbers got so low they had to import pest so they had enough pests to control. If it were about pest control and balance they could of just stopped hunting and waited for their numbers to build up naturaly


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## Guest (May 19, 2010)

owieprone said:


> yep they are pests and do spread diseases
> The fox website | Disease
> 
> they kill stock (chickens for instance) indescriminately (not just one for food then but the whole coop if it can.. and it's not for getting later as someone else said on here, if it was they would come back and take them somewhere secure.. they don't come back for more on the same night so it's not for dinner later in the week as they've not 'secured' their kill).
> ...


no they are not pest they are one of our few native predators and yes they do go back for the surplus chickens they kill, naturalists have studied this behaviour over and over again, there are many animals which cache surplus food,the only time they dont return is if they are disturbed! at the end of the day people should take responsibility for their animals and keep them secure from predators!

people dont have to lose jobs they can go drag hunting!


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## Guest (May 19, 2010)

i will not shoot a fox for the fun of it but when he goes to my livestock i will shoot him my problem solved no fox no worry


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I'm on the fence as far as hunting is concerned but TBH I see fox hunting with hounds as archaic & barbaric as bear & bull baiting or dog fighting. I don't like the idea of any spectator sport that involves one side being terrorised for an often protracted amount of time & then killed


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

I am so not going to read through the whole thread, so to many,

But I do have to have my say, there is a fine line between a hunt and sport,, I think that alot of it is now sport which makes it very distastefull (SP) 

I see both sides of the argument, and I feel there is a need to hunt the foxes...


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Rock the boat!!
Hold on a minute, did i read correctly, they import foxes??


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Humans have caused enough damage to Britain's food chain. If we hadn't hunted the Wolves to extiction in the 16th century then hunting foxes to dwindle numbers would not be needed. 

Wolves were a natural predator to the Fox. And no wolves would not over run the Island. Simply because the litters they bred and the ones that survive pretty much went with the older ones that died.

So once again if we had left well alone mother nature would have made sure the wildlife was on a good balance without the need for any barbaric ''sport''

Re-introducing the Wolf would be the best way but sadly its not to be for many reasons.


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

GillyR said:


> Rock the boat!!
> Hold on a minute, did i read correctly, they import foxes??


What are you talking to me :scared: LOL I just stumbled across thread and had to stick my ore in LOL


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

GillyR said:


> Rock the boat!!
> Hold on a minute, did i read correctly, they import foxes??


Oh yes, we ran a bit short of vermin so had to import some


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Oh yes, we ran a bit short of vermin so had to import some


And that makes sense HOW? Surely that's just adding to the problem


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

sequeena said:


> And that makes sense HOW? Surely that's just adding to the problem


It doesn't make any sense at all to me. There are some valid points for fox hunting but pest control isn't one of them


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

hawksport said:


> It doesn't make any sense at all to me. There are some valid points for fox hunting but pest control isn't one of them


:thumbup: Rep for you x


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

yes its quite true foxes were imported from the continent! they were called Bagmen because they were kept in bags to weaken them and either realeased in hunt areas or kept at the kennels to supply the demand! Its also very well know that many hunts encourage foxes to breed by creating artificial earths for them , so when they say they hunt to control fox populations its an utter lie!


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> yes its quite true foxes were imported from the continent! they were called Bagmen because they were kept in bags to weaken them and either realeased in hunt areas or kept at the kennels to supply the demand! Its also very well know that many hunts encourage foxes to breed by creating artificial earths for them , so when they say they hunt to control fox populations its an utter lie!


The bagmen where rather a long time ago in history!!!!
I know of a gamekeeper who worked on an estate where the landowner hunted.
He had certain areas where he was not allowed to do fox control because they wanted to find foxes when the hunt came through


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> yes its quite true foxes were imported from the continent! they were called Bagmen because they were kept in bags to weaken them and either realeased in hunt areas or kept at the kennels to supply the demand! Its also very well know that many hunts encourage foxes to breed by creating artificial earths for them , so when they say they hunt to control fox populations its an utter lie!


Are you saying that the stag hunts choose the healthiest stags so they provide a full days hunting but foxes were kept in bags so they could be caught easier.



rona said:


> The bagmen where rather a long time ago in history!!!!
> I know of a gamekeeper who worked on an estate where the landowner hunted.
> He had certain areas where he was not allowed to do fox control because they wanted to find foxes when the hunt came through


That's right and in protecting a habitat for foxes to breed they protect a habitat for other wildlife.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> The bagmen where rather a long time ago in history!!!!
> I know of a gamekeeper who worked on an estate where the landowner hunted.
> He had certain areas where he was not allowed to do fox control because they wanted to find foxes when the hunt came through


as far as im aware they still are routinely imported, and its very commonly know that hunts build artificial earths for them.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> That's right and in protecting a habitat for foxes to breed they protect a habitat for other wildlife.


I've never heard of habitat management for fox hunting, I have for other forms of field sport.
What would you do for habitat management for the fox? 
I know that hedges are kept so that the hunters can jump and the gates that are used are quite often goose gates, again for ease of jumping


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> as far as im aware they still are routinely imported, and its very commonly know that hunts build artificial earths for them.


Do they have pet passports?


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> as far as im aware they still are routinely imported, and its very commonly know that hunts build artificial earths for them.


Where?
I can't imagine anyone having to do that with the fox population as it is


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> as far as im aware they still are routinely imported, and its very commonly know that hunts build artificial earths for them.


Of course they do, gives them something to hunt, what better way to preserve a species than make them the preserve of the rich for hunting 

I don't think they're imported any more, they don't need to, there are enough urban foxes dumped in the countryside :lol:

PS VERY tongue in cheek and playing devil's advocate at the same time.....

PPS I think there are much more important things to worry about in life


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Are you saying that the stag hunts choose the healthiest stags so they provide a full days hunting but foxes were kept in bags so they could be caught easier.
> 
> That's right and in protecting a habitat for foxes to breed they protect a habitat for other wildlife.





rona said:


> I've never heard of habitat management for fox hunting, I have for other forms of field sport.
> What would you do for habitat management for the fox?
> I know that hedges are kept so that the hunters can jump and the gates that are used are quite often goose gates, again for ease of jumping





hawksport said:


> Do they have pet passports?





rona said:


> Where?
> I can't imagine anyone having to do that with the fox population as it is





Sleeping_Lion said:


> Of course they do, gives them something to hunt, what better way to preserve a species than make them the preserve of the rich for hunting
> 
> I don't think they're imported any more, they don't need to, there are enough urban foxes dumped in the countryside :lol:
> 
> ...


they are imported from other areas so they dont need passports

heres a very famous hunt getting caught red handed!!!!

PRINCE Charles's favourite hunt was last night at the centre of allegations that it reared fox cubs simply to chase and kill them.

Footage from an undercover investigation apparently showed an employee from the Royal Beaufort Hunt feeding animals in 15 manmade dens.

A hidden camera showed chambers being built for foxes to live and breed in, and portrayed dead chickens and pheasants being left outside.

Thomas Burton, the hunt's official terrierman, was allegedly filmed shovelling offal on to stone slabs. The footage also shows a dead sheep used to entice foxes out on to open ground.

The film by the International Fund for Animal Welfare was shot over nine days and shown on BBC's Newsnight yesterday. The revelations will be acutely embarrassing for the Countryside Alliance The Countryside Alliance (CA) is a British organisation promoting issues relating to the countryside such as food, farming and country sports (hunting, shooting and angling). , to which the Beaufort is a major contributor. Hunt supporters claim the sport is necessary to keep fox numbers down.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> PPS I think there are much more important things to worry about in life


well im one of those people who worries about all aspects of animal cruelty not just cruelty to domestic animal but cruelty to wildlife aswell!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

To be honest, I'm far more worried about things like red squirrels, water voles, and some of the other very endangered species, fox hunting just doesn't bother me. We are so cruel to animals in so many ways, from raising them for the table, to pet ownership, that I just can't be bothered with the debate about a few foxes, and think the whole issue gets blown out of proportion along side *life*. When you look at how easy it is to accept cruelty in relation to economics, you're on a losing streak. Twenty or thirty years ago, people couldn't afford to eat half the stuff they can buy from the supermarket nowadays and certainly couldn't afford to eat meat everyday, or out of season produce, and yet they expect that standard of living, and they expect it cheaply, and at the end of that on the meat and animal produce side, it's the animals that suffer. On another thread, ages ago about hunting and cruelty to animals, I pointed out how easy it was to buy free range eggs, and yet it was deemed acceptable, if you couldn't afford the free range variety, to buy caged hen eggs  On the same thread, the same people were against fox hunting   How?? Far more caged hens suffer than foxes for human *gratification*.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Are you saying that the stag hunts choose the healthiest stags so they provide a full days hunting but foxes were kept in bags so they could be caught easier.
> 
> That's right and in protecting a habitat for foxes to breed they protect a habitat for other wildlife.





Shamen said:


> i tried not to look at this thread again but here i am!
> 
> thats a load of rubbish aswell!, a pack of dogs dont asses and test the ungulates for the weak animals like a pack of wolves do! a human chooses a stag! i dare say they look for one which appears fit and in its prime for a nice long chase! a chase which can last a couple of hours or even longer, eventually the poor exhausted animal will often find water to stay in, the few animals that do escape often die from shock or injuries sustained trying to escape the pack!now that to me is barbaric!





Shamen said:


> but thats the just point isnt it they could never select the weakest animals like the wolf can even if they wanted to
> 
> if deer have to be culled it should be done humanely as possible by a marksman!!!!


i dont know what their mentality is tbh, i know the chase for the Stags often lasts 2 hours or more so i think that speaks for itself, but again that wasnt even my point i was stating that you cant compare they way hounds hunt to the way a pack of wolves do!


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be honest, I'm far more worried about things like red squirrels, water voles, and some of the other very endangered species, fox hunting just doesn't bother me. We are so cruel to animals in so many ways, from raising them for the table, to pet ownership, that I just can't be bothered with the debate about a few foxes, and think the whole issue gets blown out of proportion along side *life*. When you look at how easy it is to accept cruelty in relation to economics, you're on a losing streak. Twenty or thirty years ago, people couldn't afford to eat half the stuff they can buy from the supermarket nowadays and certainly couldn't afford to eat meat everyday, or out of season produce, and yet they expect that standard of living, and they expect it cheaply, and at the end of that on the meat and animal produce side, it's the animals that suffer. On another thread, ages ago about hunting and cruelty to animals, I pointed out how easy it was to buy free range eggs, and yet it was deemed acceptable, if you couldn't afford the free range variety, to buy caged hen eggs  On the same thread, the same people were against fox hunting   How?? Far more caged hens suffer than foxes for human *gratification*.


i find it really sad that so many people dont care or are indifferent to the fact that foxes/stags might once again be hunted in this barbaric and outdated way, just out of curiosity would you be 'bothered' if hounds were allowed to hunt smaller domestic dogs in this way?

and as i dont eat meat/drink milk and only eat eggs from rescued battery hens who are now free range the rest of your post dosent really apply to me.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> they are imported from other areas so they dont need passports
> 
> heres a very famous hunt getting caught red handed!!!!
> 
> ...


I know just how accurate some footage can be.
I have seen footage of pigs that are allegedly showing stress related behaviour, when in fact, if you know anything about pigs, they are either showing a sow in season or young pigs just before feeding time.
I'm not saying that cruelty doesn't go on in most forms of animal care or production.
BUT you cannot say, that just because one section does something wrong, that all do.
It's like saying that you have seen someone beating their dog, so all dog owners must be bad.
This post is just making a point, not supporting fox hunting


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Some very interesting arguments on here and I just wanted to add my two-penn'orth, even though it's all been said before.

Hunting for food I can understand and accept. Hunting for sport is barbaric and unnecessary and all the arguments the pro-hunters manufacture to save face and excuse their blood-thirsty behaviour don't wash with anyone other than the pro-hunters themselves.

I don't see anything remotely sport-like about hunting. For me, Shamen's signature says it all:

Hunting is not a sport. In a sport, both sides should know they are in the game.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i find it really sad that so many people dont care or are indifferent to the fact that foxes/stags might once again be hunted in this barbaric and outdated way, just out of curiosity would you be 'bothered' if hounds were allowed to hunt smaller domestic dogs in this way?
> 
> and as i dont eat meat/drink milk and only eat eggs from rescued battery hens who are now free range the rest of your post dosent really apply to me.


It might not apply to you, but as more animals suffer in this way, surely you would count the eradication of caged hens and poor farming practices as a much higher priority? And promote seasonal produce and locally raised meat and animal produce??

I eat animals, I'm not averse to preparing my own food, ie plucking and drawing, gutting, skinning etc, I don't buy meat from supermarkets, the free range eggs I get are from someone who keeps hens locally. I also don't waste food, if I can't make a stock from it, at the very least the girls get it in their tea.

I'm sorry, but I don't get your point about small domestic dogs, I don't see them out in the wild, they don't pose any problem to live stock/birds generally, unless they happen to get loose in a farm yard/field, so I'm not sure what you're asking? I don't equate a small pet dog the same as a fox, they are different animals entirely, one has been domesticated for many, many years, one is a wild animal  Some animals/birds do become a problem, either one or two individuals, or in larger numbers, in that instance their numbers have to be controlled. If foxes were endangered then relocate them, but they're not, there are vast numbers of them, it's unfortunate we can't eat them, so do we just not control their numbers where needed because of this? I have a few friends who go out rabbiting, it keeps the population of rabbits down where they would increase in huge numbers, keeping the population healthier, training their dogs at the same time, and supplies a few nice rabbits for the pot. Along the same lines, I know of a few people who go and shoot crows where they are too great in numbers and are causing a problem, obviously you can't eat crows, so do you think that's wrong?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I've eaten crow


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It might not apply to you, but as more animals suffer in this way, surely you would count the eradication of caged hens and poor farming practices as a much higher priority? And promote seasonal produce and locally raised meat and animal produce??
> 
> I eat animals, I'm not averse to preparing my own food, ie plucking and drawing, gutting, skinning etc, I don't buy meat from supermarkets, the free range eggs I get are from someone who keeps hens locally. I also don't waste food, if I can't make a stock from it, at the very least the girls get it in their tea.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't get your point about small domestic dogs, I don't see them out in the wild, they don't pose any problem to live stock/birds generally, unless they happen to get loose in a farm yard/field, so I'm not sure what you're asking? I don't equate a small pet dog the same as a fox, they are different animals entirely, one has been domesticated for many, many years, one is a wild animal  Some animals/birds do become a problem, either one or two individuals, or in larger numbers, in that instance their numbers have to be controlled. If foxes were endangered then relocate them, but they're not, there are vast numbers of them, it's unfortunate we can't eat them, so do we just not control their numbers where needed because of this? I have a few friends who go out rabbiting, it keeps the population of rabbits down where they would increase in huge numbers, keeping the population healthier, training their dogs at the same time, and supplies a few nice rabbits for the pot. Along the same lines, I know of a few people who go and shoot crows where they are too great in numbers and are causing a problem, obviously you can't eat crows, so do you think that's wrong?


Magpies too, can devastate song bird populations


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I've eaten crow


Now I've heard of young rooks being eaten, but not crow, what did it taste like??


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## kelseye (Aug 16, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> If you would like to start another thread on the above then i'm sure many people would be happy to give their views. However, this thread is about hunting. We are living in a modern society and I think we need to accept that certain British traits should stay in the history books. Hunting is not a way of life, it's a choice. Cats that can actually catch and kill birds are very instinctive, as much as most of them are pets alot are very undomesticated to a degree. Are you saying it's instinctive to a human to hunt? x


yes i am do u eat meat? do u feed you animals other animals???? at the end of the day if you lot realy cared that much about animals you would all go out your way to stop animal crulty all round the world keep it real people hunting is not crule zoo's are stop funding them !!!!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Now I've heard of young rooks being eaten, but not crow, what did it taste like??


Not as nice as as squirrel but not as bad as seagull


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

kelseye said:


> yes i am do u eat meat? do u feed you animals other animals???? at the end of the day if you lot realy cared that much about animals you would all go out your way to stop animal crulty all round the world keep it real people hunting is not crule zoo's are stop funding them !!!!


That's a sweeping statement again about zoos.
What about places like Monkey World?


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## kelseye (Aug 16, 2009)

rona said:


> That's a sweeping statement again about zoos.
> What about places like Monkey World?


same i think the same about pet shops aswell i do feel sorry for the animals there just put there for our entertainment sad realy when we could always go see them in there country doing there natural things


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

kelseye said:


> same i think the same about pet shops aswell i do feel sorry for the animals there just put there for our entertainment sad realy when we could always go see them in there country doing there natural things


But Monkey world saves monkeys from horrendous situations and gives them the best life possible that they could have in captivity.
How are they supposed to fund saving more if they don't open to the public?


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> How are they supposed to fund saving more if they don't open to the public?


Exactly, if they keep themselves closed off from the rest of the world for funds, they'll go the way of North Korea; bankrupt...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Not as nice as as squirrel but not as bad as seagull


Now I haven't tasted squirrel either, but wouldn't be averse to trying that one. As for the seagull remark, reminds me of the old monty python sketch .......... albatross!!!!!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Now I haven't tasted squirrel either, but wouldn't be averse to trying that one. As for the seagull remark, reminds me of the old monty python sketch .......... albatross!!!!!


Go to the fishmongers and buy yourself a nice piece of fish. Put it in an old shoe and leave it for a week. Throw the fish away and eat the shoe. That will be close to seagull


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## kelseye (Aug 16, 2009)

all im going to say is i do love hunting its great !!!


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Shamen said:


> no they are not pest they are one of our few native predators and yes they do go back for the surplus chickens they kill, naturalists have studied this behaviour over and over again, there are many animals which cache surplus food,the only time they dont return is if they are disturbed! at the end of the day people should take responsibility for their animals and keep them secure from predators!
> 
> people dont have to lose jobs they can go drag hunting!


whether they are pests or not depends on your livelihood i'm sure.. i personally don't see them as pests but i know many farmers (personally) that do, they also see rabbits and badgers as pest.

Any animal that caches it's food for later DOES NOT cache them in the place they killed them, if they did then they wouldn't be surprised to find their cache gone as the smell would alert other preds and carrion-eaters to the easy pickings. Caches are always away from the killing zone, somewhere safe,quiet and easy to get to.. which isn't how i would describe a farm. the predator would go back within a few hours to start moving the haul, only if it has already been discovered within that time would it be too late, most farmers don't discover the problem until the morning, many hours after the deed was done.

You need far less people for drag hunting than you do for a full on hunt so people and dogs would still be wasted.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It might not apply to you, but as more animals suffer in this way, surely you would count the eradication of caged hens and poor farming practices as a much higher priority? And promote seasonal produce and locally raised meat and animal produce??
> 
> I eat animals, I'm not averse to preparing my own food, ie plucking and drawing, gutting, skinning etc, I don't buy meat from supermarkets, the free range eggs I get are from someone who keeps hens locally. I also don't waste food, if I can't make a stock from it, at the very least the girls get it in their tea.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't get your point about small domestic dogs, I don't see them out in the wild, they don't pose any problem to live stock/birds generally, unless they happen to get loose in a farm yard/field, so I'm not sure what you're asking? I don't equate a small pet dog the same as a fox, they are different animals entirely, one has been domesticated for many, many years, one is a wild animal  Some animals/birds do become a problem, either one or two individuals, or in larger numbers, in that instance their numbers have to be controlled. If foxes were endangered then relocate them, but they're not, there are vast numbers of them, it's unfortunate we can't eat them, so do we just not control their numbers where needed because of this? I have a few friends who go out rabbiting, it keeps the population of rabbits down where they would increase in huge numbers, keeping the population healthier, training their dogs at the same time, and supplies a few nice rabbits for the pot. Along the same lines, I know of a few people who go and shoot crows where they are too great in numbers and are causing a problem, obviously you can't eat crows, so do you think that's wrong?


i am just as outraged at the way many farm animals are kept and if the thread was about them i speak out for them aswell, i have plenty of compassion to go round for ALL the abused and mistreated animals

my point was All animals feel pain and fear whether they are wild or domestic and i just cant understand why you wouldnt feel compassion for both, as i have said before at the end of the day its the farmers responsibility to keep his animals safe from predators.

its funny that your friends have to keep the rabbit populations down maybe you should let those vast numbers of foxes do it instead

i believed this thread to be about hunting with dogs but in answer to your crow question... i think if youre going to kill any animal then show it some respect and do it as humanely and as quickly as possible, shoot it.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

kelseye said:


> all im going to say is i do love hunting its great !!!






owieprone said:


> whether they are pests or not depends on your livelihood i'm sure.. i personally don't see them as pests but i know many farmers (personally) that do, they also see rabbits and badgers as pest.
> 
> Any animal that caches it's food for later DOES NOT cache them in the place they killed them, if they did then they wouldn't be surprised to find their cache gone as the smell would alert other preds and carrion-eaters to the easy pickings. Caches are always away from the killing zone, somewhere safe,quiet and easy to get to.. which isn't how i would describe a farm. the predator would go back within a few hours to start moving the haul, only if it has already been discovered within that time would it be too late, most farmers don't discover the problem until the morning, many hours after the deed was done.
> 
> You need far less people for drag hunting than you do for a full on hunt so people and dogs would still be wasted.


and some farmers even consider buzzards are pests

lmao no youre right they wouldnt cache them on the farm theyre not that stupid:lol: if undisturbed they go back for each individual bird and bury them somewhere safe

well lots of "decent" people lose "decent" livelyhoods all the time, so hey ho i couldnt care less about those whose jobs depend on cruelty! and as for the dogs what exactly do you think happens to all those who dont make the grade anyway?


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

There is a fox den near me and the state that it is in is distusting, bits of birds, rabbits and god knows what else left outside. So they obviously don't eat the whole animal, the eat the best bits and leave the rest. 

Just adding this because if I owned a farm and an animal of mine was to be killed, I'd rather it be killed by something that is going to eat it all.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i am just as outraged at the way many farm animals are kept and if the thread was about them i speak out for them aswell, i have plenty of compassion to go round for ALL the abused and mistreated animals
> 
> my point was All animals feel pain and fear whether they are wild or domestic and i just cant understand why you wouldnt feel compassion for both, as i have said before at the end of the day its the farmers responsibility to keep his animals safe from predators.
> 
> ...


I thought the thread was about all hunting that didn't involve eating the game/quarry, call it what you will, afterwards?

I do feel compassion for both, you completely misunderstand me, I just understand that not everything born into this world has a place, or will survive. You may not want to believe it, but the majority of those who shoot and hunt animals have a great respect for the countryside, and for the management of animals. You might not agree with parts of how they hunt or act, but generally, overall, they care greatly about the countryside and the wildlife in it. Some things I may not agree with, but in the great scheme of things, where you have people living in apathy and expecting everything delivered to them at the local shop so they don't have to make an effort to go to several shops two miles away and walk for part of the journey, who chooses which is the greater evil?


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> There is a fox den near me and the state that it is in is distusting, bits of birds, rabbits and god knows what else left outside. So they obviously don't eat the whole animal, the eat the best bits and leave the rest.
> 
> Just adding this because if I owned a farm and an animal of mine was to be killed, I'd rather it be killed by something that is going to eat it all.


Is that just recently?
It could be that the cubs have been left bits to play with and to learn their hunting skills


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Oh yes, we ran a bit short of vermin so had to import some


eH?? What the hell is that all about???

What about the argument they are hunted because they are vermin??

I am not that wise, but, Jesyus, the hunters really have no argument at all.

Yeah great.... not had a kill for a while, lets import a few of the critters 

What about rats?? they are considered vermin?? we are, apparently over populated.....what will we do, when numbers are low?


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Shamen said:


> yes its quite true foxes were imported from the continent! they were called Bagmen because they were kept in bags to weaken them and either realeased in hunt areas or kept at the kennels to supply the demand! Its also very well know that many hunts encourage foxes to breed by creating artificial earths for them , so when they say they hunt to control fox populations its an utter lie!


Good God !!!

Bloody sick.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I've eaten crow


You dirty bugger :lol:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

The farmers that I know who have buzzards nesting on their land are all proud of them and look after them.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> There is a fox den near me and the state that it is in is distusting, bits of birds, rabbits and god knows what else left outside. So they obviously don't eat the whole animal, the eat the best bits and leave the rest.
> 
> Just adding this because if I owned a farm and an animal of mine was to be killed, I'd rather it be killed by something that is going to eat it all.


_So they obviously don't eat the whole animal, the eat the best bits and leave the rest.​_
Yep - dont a lot of humans do that too?


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

rona said:


> Is that just recently?
> It could be that the cubs have been left bits to play with and to learn their hunting skills


Good point hun.....and lets face it, so what? xx


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

GillyR said:


> I can not understand why poeple are in favour of hunting to be legal again :frown:


this is a quote from the ops opening thread, i believe its about the possible repeal of the hunting ban



Sleeping_Lion said:


> I thought the thread was about all hunting that didn't involve eating the game/quarry, call it what you will, afterwards?
> 
> I do feel compassion for both, you completely misunderstand me, I just understand that not everything born into this world has a place, or will survive. You may not want to believe it, but the majority of those who shoot and hunt animals have a great respect for the countryside, and for the management of animals. You might not agree with parts of how they hunt or act, but generally, overall, they care greatly about the countryside and the wildlife in it. Some things I may not agree with, but in the great scheme of things, where you have people living in apathy and expecting everything delivered to them at the local shop so they don't have to make an effort to go to several shops two miles away and walk for part of the journey, who chooses which is the greater evil?


sorry im not sure what you mean by....."not everything born into this world has a place", and of course i know not everything will survive

defending fox/stag hunters imo gives regular hunters a bad name, there is tons of video evidence showing just how much they respect their quarry, their dogs and horses! i find it hard to believe they care about anything except their sick outdated passtime!

well imo cruelty has to be stamped out! there is no excuse for it and the fox and the stag deserve to be championed, just as did the bear and the bull.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> The farmers that I know who have buzzards nesting on their land are all proud of them and look after them.


the game keeping lobby are calling for them to be culled!


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

rona said:


> Is that just recently?
> It could be that the cubs have been left bits to play with and to learn their hunting skills


No its been there for years. The last time I had a look was October/November time.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

I love hunting, it's tradition, sport, keeps vermin down and I can't for the ban to be repealed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> this is a quote from the ops opening thread, i believe its about the possible repeal of the hunting ban
> 
> sorry im not sure what you mean by....."not everything born into this world has a place", and of course i know not everything will survive
> 
> ...


But the op then goes on to clarify that they mean hunting where the game isn't eaten, I believe.

I've tried to put across the skewed ethics that people find it acceptable on one hand to have food provided for their table from an unethical source, and yet they will jump on any band wagon to do with shooting or hunting, whether or not it's cruel, as long as it's portrayed in the right light. The RSPCA famously spent thousands of pounds on misadvertising against countryside sports. What I'm trying to put to you in the simplest form is that with the huge amount of waste, as an example, people buying pre-cooked chicken and throwing half of it away; the useless life of a hen raised in a cage, cooked and then not to even be shown the respect of being eaten, or a fox/stag hunted with hounds. Which of those do you think happens with more alarming regularity, how many thousands of lives are lived cruelly and wasted, and yet we focus on something that is sensationalised?? I'm not saying either is right, I'm just pointing out what we deem economically and therefore ethically acceptable. And if you were to stop one of those from happening forever tomorrow, which would have the greater impact on the lives saved?



Shamen said:


> the game keeping lobby are calling for them to be culled!


Game keepers are not necessarily farmers, as I'm sure you know


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> the game keeping lobby are calling for them to be culled!


The Buzzard has been a success story, but in some areas they have reached saturation point.
Do we leave them to decimate other countryside dwellers or have a sensible cull?
The government had to employ deer stalkers a while ago, because having no natural predators, the deer were stating to do massive damage to certain areas.
As long as it is a controlled cull for the benefit of the species and other species, I can't see a problem with this


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Shamen said:


> well lots of "decent" people lose "decent" livelyhoods all the time, so hey ho i couldnt care less about those whose jobs depend on cruelty! and as for the dogs what exactly do you think happens to all those who dont make the grade anyway?


That made me laugh, i know what you mean, but my husbands job used to depend on other peoples cruelty, he worked for a large humanitarian charity for 8 years, they then made him redundant.

i know what happens to the dogs they get taken as much as possible by those that hunt with them, those that can't be put into a household situation due to behavioural issues are put down, it's a shame but needs must. One of my mates works with beagle breeders, his family usually have 3+ retired ones dotting about.

yeah i dunno what farmers are thinking when they say buzzards are vermin! they're help surely! eejits.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I could go along with it if when the fox went to ground they left it and found another. If they chase it and catch it that would be fair enough and a better death than most foxes will have but to bolt it from one den chase it and then dig it out from another just isn't fair to me.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Tapir said:


> I love hunting, it's tradition, sport, keeps vermin down and I can't for the ban to be repealed.


What do you love about it exactly.....the vermin argument seems to gone out the window.

What has tradition got to do with it?

Do you favour ball fighting? or dog fighting? cock fighting?....those are considered a sport too :


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I could go along with it if when the fox went to ground they left it and found another. If they chase it and catch it that would be fair enough and a better death than most foxes will have but to bolt it from one den chase it and then dig it out from another just isn't fair to me.


Not fair to me either....where is the 'sport' in that?


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

GillyR said:


> What do you love about it exactly.....the vermin argument seems to gone out the window.
> 
> What has tradition got to do with it?
> 
> Do you favour ball fighting? or dog fighting? cock fighting?....those are considered a sport too :


My oppinion wont change. I have heard it all before and still pro-hunting. I love the thrill of the hunt. the vermin argument is not out the window in my oppinion.

I don't know enough about bull fighting or cock fighting to have an oppinion. i am against dog fighting.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Tapir said:


> My oppinion wont change. I have heard it all before and still pro-hunting. I love the thrill of the hunt. the vermin argument is not out the window in my oppinion.
> 
> I don't know enough about bull fighting or cock fighting to have an oppinion. i am against dog fighting.


I think you have hit the nail on the head here.
So many people make judgments on things they know nothing about.
The press has a lot to answer for sometimes.
If someone has got off their arse and gone out to see what they are complaining about, rather than just go with propaganda, then their opinion is far more valid than arm chair critics


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rona said:


> The Buzzard has been a success story, but in some areas they have reached saturation point.
> Do we leave them to decimate other countryside dwellers or have a sensible cull?
> The government had to employ deer stalkers a while ago, because having no natural predators, the deer were stating to do massive damage to certain areas.
> As long as it is a controlled cull for the benefit of the species and other species, I can't see a problem with this


The sparrowhawk is another species that's becoming a nuisance, in urban areas particularly, where there is nothing to stop it's numbers from increasing, no natural predators, and ooodles of lovely plump garden birds to feed off, sad when garden birds are in decline


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

my friend who hunts, her horse was attacked by 'animals right activists' or anti hunt campaigners or whatever they call themselves (a majority are thugs... )

they got a rope round its front leg and tripped it. It was lame and my friend went flying.


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

The SABS - ugh, they're a nasty piece of work.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Tapir said:


> my friend who hunts, her horse was attacked by 'animals right activists' or anti hunt campaigners or whatever they call themselves (a majority are thugs... )
> 
> they got a rope round its front leg and tripped it. It was lame and my friend went flying.


Most of the hunt sabs are only there to cause trouble just the same as the g8 protesters. Those that realy care ought to distance themselves from the thugs.


----------



## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Tapir said:


> my friend who hunts, her horse was attacked by 'animals right activists' or anti hunt campaigners or whatever they call themselves (a majority are thugs... )
> 
> they got a rope round its front leg and tripped it. It was lame and my friend went flying.





Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> The SABS - ugh, they're a nasty piece of work.





hawksport said:


> Most of the hunt sabs are only there to cause trouble just the same as the g8 protesters. Those that realy care ought to distance themselves from the thugs.


They are rent a mob 
It's a pity that the genuine protesters get mixed up with these idiots


----------



## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But the op then goes on to clarify that they mean hunting where the game isn't eaten, I believe.
> 
> I've tried to put across the skewed ethics that people find it acceptable on one hand to have food provided for their table from an unethical source, and yet they will jump on any band wagon to do with shooting or hunting, whether or not it's cruel, as long as it's portrayed in the right light. The RSPCA famously spent thousands of pounds on misadvertising against countryside sports. What I'm trying to put to you in the simplest form is that with the huge amount of waste, as an example, people buying pre-cooked chicken and throwing half of it away; the useless life of a hen raised in a cage, cooked and then not to even be shown the respect of being eaten, or a fox/stag hunted with hounds. Which of those do you think happens with more alarming regularity, how many thousands of lives are lived cruelly and wasted, and yet we focus on something that is sensationalised?? I'm not saying either is right, I'm just pointing out what we deem economically and therefore ethically acceptable. And if you were to stop one of those from happening forever tomorrow, which would have the greater impact on the lives saved?


cruelty is involved in keeping battery hens, cruelty is involved hunting with hounds...in my book two wrongs dont make a right



rona said:


> The Buzzard has been a success story, but in some areas they have reached saturation point.
> Do we leave them to decimate other countryside dwellers or have a sensible cull?
> The government had to employ deer stalkers a while ago, because having no natural predators, the deer were stating to do massive damage to certain areas.
> As long as it is a controlled cull for the benefit of the species and other species, I can't see a problem with this


errm just what other countryside dwellers is the buzzard decimating???

i said before if deer need to be culled it should be done humanely by a marksman and i see a massive problem when animals are terrorised before they are killed!



owieprone said:


> That made me laugh, i know what you mean, but my husbands job used to depend on other peoples cruelty, he worked for a large humanitarian charity for 8 years, they then made him redundant.
> 
> i know what happens to the dogs they get taken as much as possible by those that hunt with them, those that can't be put into a household situation due to behavioural issues are put down, it's a shame but needs must. One of my mates works with beagle breeders, his family usually have 3+ retired ones dotting about.
> 
> yeah i dunno what farmers are thinking when they say buzzards are vermin! they're help surely! eejits.


sorry to hear your oh lost his job and a very worthy one at that

theres also lots of evidence of them shooting hounds and lots were young ones aswell.



Tapir said:


> My oppinion wont change. I have heard it all before and still pro-hunting. I love the thrill of the hunt. the vermin argument is not out the window in my oppinion.
> 
> I don't know enough about bull fighting or cock fighting to have an oppinion. i am against dog fighting.


but foxes arnt classed as vermin


----------



## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The sparrowhawk is another species that's becoming a nuisance, in urban areas particularly, where there is nothing to stop it's numbers from increasing, no natural predators, and ooodles of lovely plump garden birds to feed off, sad when garden birds are in decline


actually the main decline in garden birds is due mainly to farming practises there are not enough suitable habitats for them anymore, you cant blame their native predators!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Shamen said:


> cruelty is involved in keeping battery hens, cruelty is involved hunting with hounds...in my book two wrongs dont make a right
> 
> errm just what other countryside dwellers is the buzzard decimating???
> 
> ...


If a deer can be shot humanely why can't a hound be shot humanely


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> errm just what other countryside dwellers is the buzzard decimating???
> 
> :


The Raptor Foundation - Common Buzzard

Take your pick


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Tapir said:


> My oppinion wont change. I have heard it all before and still pro-hunting. I love the thrill of the hunt. the vermin argument is not out the window in my oppinion.
> 
> I don't know enough about bull fighting or cock fighting to have an oppinion. i am against dog fighting.


What thrill?


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Shamen said:


> errm just what other countryside dwellers is the buzzard decimating???
> 
> :


let's hope it's litter-dropping ramblers.

my mate (the one with the retired beagles) is also and anti-sab.. he has hilarious stories from doing that.

Sabs are just as bad as the hunters in my book, they damage land and horses/dogs with no regard for ANYONES safety hunter or joe-public, which is as bad as hunting foxes..complete hypocrites. some of the stories my mate tells about that are horrendous! If i was a farm owner i'd shoot them on site (that's not spelt wrong btw).

ooh we love animals.. lets put a lasso a horse legs to get the rider off breaking it in the process... yes we love animals...

tits


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> actually the main decline in garden birds is due mainly to farming practises there are not enough suitable habitats for them anymore, you cant blame their native predators!


Can I ask where your information comes from?
Though most is very sound, some does seem to stem from biased sources


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> The Raptor Foundation - Common Buzzard
> 
> Take your pick


sorry i cant see where it says there decimating anything could you c&p that please?


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

owieprone said:


> let's hope it's litter-dropping ramblers.
> 
> my mate (the one with the retired beagles) is also and anti-sab.. he has hilarious stories from doing that.
> 
> ...


Agreed with that....thats something i couldnt get my head around either....tbh, couldnt give a flying Shite about the hunter, but they are so wrong in hurting other animals....and blaming the rider.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> Can I ask where your information comes from?
> Though most is very sound, some does seem to stem from biased sources


sure its the RSPB website


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> sorry i cant see where it says there decimating anything could you c&p that please?


You just have to look at what they eat and realize that an out of control population of Buzzard is not a sensible idea


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## Helloween19 (Jan 20, 2010)

rona said:


> You just have to look at what they eat and realize that an out of control population of Buzzard is not a sensible idea


What, road kill and rabbits? I would love to see a big clumsy buzzard get a nippy little songbird LOL
I hate it when people blame birds of prey and corvids for the decline in songbirds


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> sure its the RSPB website


And they are in favour of fox control, not by hunting admittedly.
They are also in favour of various other predator controls, so why not Buzzard????


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Helloween19 said:


> What, road kill and rabbits? I would love to see a big clumsy buzzard get a nippy little songbird LOL
> I hate it when people blame birds of prey and corvids for the decline in songbirds


I have seen Buzzards kill other birds have you?


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> You just have to look at what they eat and realize that an out of control population of Buzzard is not a sensible idea


ahhh you mean gamebirds!

Buzzard deserve our protectsion | Shooting times


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Helloween19 said:


> What, road kill and rabbits? I would love to see a big clumsy buzzard get a nippy little songbird LOL
> I hate it when people blame birds of prey and corvids for the decline in songbirds


In all the hours I've spent watching buzzards I've never seen them catch anything but I've seen magpies empty nests plenty of times


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> ahhh you mean gamebirds!
> 
> Buzzard deserve our protectsion | Shooting times


Buzzards eat very few gamebirds, not enough to worry about.
Sparrow hawks on the other hand are different, but luckily their numbers are still relatively small in most areas


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> In all the hours I've spent watching buzzards I've never seen them catch anything but I've seen magpies empty nests plenty of times


That amazes me, I have seen two pigeon strikes and a pheasant poult in the last 3 years.
We do have a high population here though


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> Buzzards eat very few gamebirds, not enough to worry about.
> Sparrow hawks on the other hand are different, but luckily their numbers are still relatively small in most areas


exactly they arnt decimating anything! but they do a great job clearing up carrion and eating rodents


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## Helloween19 (Jan 20, 2010)

rona said:


> I have seen Buzzards kill other birds have you?


I really can't see a buzzard being a successful hunter of songbirds, even if they did manage to catch one (which I must say I highly doubt, if you look at birds who specialise in catching small passerines eg the sparrowhawk, they are adapted for fast pursuit of prey and are completly different to a buzzard) the little amount they caught would hardly make an impact on the population. It's modern farming methods, insecticides ect which are responsible for the decline of songbirds, not birds of prey.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

rona said:


> That amazes me, I have seen two pigeon strikes and a pheasant poult in the last 3 years.
> We do have a high population here though


We have loads of buzzards, peregrines and sparrow hawks, see them everyday Just never seen the buzzards catch anything


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

hawksport said:


> In all the hours I've spent watching buzzards I've never seen them catch anything but I've seen magpies empty nests plenty of times


I know nothing about birds, so cant comment....i dont even think i know what a buzzard looks like .....i have seen a lot of magpies attacking other baby birds.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> We have loads of buzzards, peregrines and sparrow hawks, see them everyday Just never seen the buzzards catch anything


stunning birds! how lucky to see them everyday


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Helloween19 said:


> It's modern farming methods, insecticides ect which are responsible for the decline of songbirds, not birds of prey.


Exactly!!!


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## Helloween19 (Jan 20, 2010)

GillyR said:


> I know nothing about birds, so cant comment....i dont even think i know what a buzzard looks like .....i have seen a lot of magpies attacking other baby birds.


I wouldn't worry about it, we've all got to eat, even magpies hehe! There have been lots of studies disproving the silly idea that an increase in magpies causes a decrease in other birds


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## Helloween19 (Jan 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> stunning birds! how lucky to see them everyday


Beautiful birds, aren't they? I'm lucky enough to have a good population of red kites where I live, tis lovely to see them, especially when you think they were nearly driven to extinction because they were regarded as pests/vermin!!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

GillyR said:


> I know nothing about birds, so cant comment....i dont even think i know what a buzzard looks like .....i have seen a lot of magpies attacking other baby birds.


Just for you


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

Helloween19 said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, we've all got to eat, even magpies hehe! There have been lots of studies disproving the silly idea that an increase in magpies causes a decrease in other birds


Oh no, i am not worrying....it is part of nature, i suppose...and nature can appear to be cruel at times...


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

hawksport said:


> Just for you


Thanks Hawkie....wow, beautiful. Dont see many of them around here.
Stunning.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Helloween19 said:


> Beautiful birds, aren't they? I'm lucky enough to have a good population of red kites where I live, tis lovely to see them, especially when you think they were nearly driven to extinction because they were regarded as pests/vermin!!


Can you post them?


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Helloween19 said:


> Beautiful birds, aren't they? I'm lucky enough to have a good population of red kites where I live, tis lovely to see them, especially when you think they were nearly driven to extinction because they were regarded as pests/vermin!!


they are spectacular! and red kites are so beautiful what a tragedy if we'd wiped them out it dosent bare thinking about does it, i travel to Otley quite regularly and often see them, unfortunatly quite a few have been poisoned!


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> We have loads of buzzards, peregrines and sparrow hawks, see them everyday Just never seen the buzzards catch anything


Just wondering what kind of terrain you have around you?
Where I see them most is a place run with conservation in mind that has smallish fields interspersed with woods.
I think this may give the Buzzards an element of surprise over their prey


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

rona said:


> Just wondering what kind of terrain you have around you?
> Where I see them most is a place run with conservation in mind that has smallish fields interspersed with woods.
> I think this may give the Buzzards an element of surprise over their prey


The same as that for the buzzards. The peregrines nest on an old chimney, can't say more than that without giving the location away.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Helloween19 said:


> I wouldn't worry about it, we've all got to eat, even magpies hehe! There have been lots of studies disproving the silly idea that an increase in magpies causes a decrease in other birds


I think the study is here somewhere but I can't find it, can you?
British Trust for Ornithology (BTO) home page - Researching Britain's Birds

Found something
http://www.bto.org/news/news2010/marapr/Are_predators_to_blame_for_songbird_declines.html


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> cruelty is involved in keeping battery hens, cruelty is involved hunting with hounds...in my book two wrongs dont make a right


I never said two wrongs make a right, just that one cruelty is ignored by and large, the other is sensationalised, and asked the question, which, if stopped tomorrow, would make the bigger difference? You have to ask yourself, which one would hit our pocket the most, so which one do you think most people would rather just sweep under the carpet - not including you in that statement, just the majority of joe public who like to jump on a band wagon every now and then 



Shamen said:


> actually the main decline in garden birds is due mainly to farming practises there are not enough suitable habitats for them anymore, you cant blame their native predators!


I never said the decline in garden birds was due to the sparrowhawk, just that urban gardens seem to have become a safe place for them to hunt, and there are plenty of nice plump well fed birds there for them to eat. Which is a shame when garden birds are in decline


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

If you think the buzzards and sparowhawks are bad just wait till the goshawks get themselves established


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> but foxes arnt classed as vermin


yes they are where i come from 
when they take 36 hens in one night? after burrowing underneath a locked shed and gnawing through the bottom.

thats vermin...


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

GillyR said:


> What thrill?


the thrill of riding at flat out gallop with a pack of baying hounds who are doing what they are bred to do.

we all enjoy differant things. just because you don't see it as good fun, doesn't mean it doesn't get others' adrenalin pumping...


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Tapir said:


> the thrill of riding at flat out gallop with a pack of baying hounds who are doing what they are bred to do.
> 
> we all enjoy differant things. just because you don't see it as good fun, doesn't mean it doesn't get others' adrenalin pumping...


it does sound and look amazing i have to say. at least the outcome is mostly rubbish for the hunters


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I never said two wrongs make a right, just that one cruelty is ignored by and large, the other is sensationalised, and asked the question, which, if stopped tomorrow, would make the bigger difference? You have to ask yourself, which one would hit our pocket the most, so which one do you think most people would rather just sweep under the carpet - not including you in that statement, just the majority of joe public who like to jump on a band wagon every now and then
> 
> I never said the decline in garden birds was due to the sparrowhawk, just that urban gardens seem to have become a safe place for them to hunt, and there are plenty of nice plump well fed birds there for them to eat. Which is a shame when garden birds are in decline


ok i get your point now, although i cant really speak for other people i'll try, maybe some do sweep it under the carpet and maybe some arnt even aware of the suffering caused by intensive farming methods because its behind closed doors,some may even think its acceptable to treat animals bred to produce their food this way i dont know, but i dont think people seem more outraged at fox hunting because its sensationalised because it isnt! it might have more publicity but you dont need to sensationalise it! theres plenty of video footage showing the sickening brutality of one animal being persued over the countryside by a baying mob and their hounds for fun, plenty of footage of the cruelty inflicted on foxes who have gone to ground only to be dug up! i think saying joe public is jumping on the band wagon is really patronising tbh!

and as for sparrowhawkes they have to kill to survive its us who need to get our house in order and ensure there is plenty of habitat for song birds.



Tapir said:


> yes they are where i come from
> when they take 36 hens in one night? after burrowing underneath a locked shed and gnawing through the bottom.
> 
> thats vermin...


a dog could do that and theyre not vermin either


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> ok i get your point now, although i cant really speak for other people i'll try, maybe some do sweep it under the carpet and maybe some arnt even aware of the suffering caused by intensive farming methods because its behind closed doors,some may even think its acceptable to treat animals bred to produce their food this way i dont know, but i dont think people seem more outraged at fox hunting because its sensationalised because it isnt! it might have more publicity but you dont need to sensationalise it! theres plenty of video footage showing the sickening brutality of one animal being persued over the countryside by a baying mob and their hounds for fun, plenty of footage of the cruelty inflicted on foxes who have gone to ground only to be dug up! i think saying joe public is jumping on the band wagon is really patronising tbh!
> 
> and as for sparrowhawkes they have to kill to survive its us who need to get our house in order and ensure there is plenty of habitat for song birds.
> 
> a dog could do that and theyre not vermin either


yeh but a dog didn't do that, a fox did. so they are vermin.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Tapir said:


> yeh but a dog didn't do that, a fox did. so they are vermin.


well not officially


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

hawksport said:


> If a deer can be shot humanely why can't a hound be shot humanely


an estimated 10,000 dogs shot at the start of each hunting season! few of which will have reached half their potential lifespan, how very humane!


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

you know we have a fox in our garden, it is covered in mange and in a really bad way, I live semi rural and except my house was built in a foxes territory x amout of years ago,, I think the foxes in towns are more of a pain these days than the country foxes, not saying they are more destructive, but are more of a pain, because they rub shoulders with us humans.

Fox *hunting* needs to happen, not the sport where they have men going around with terriers and radios guiding the horses and dogs and flushing out the foxes,


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## Emmily (Mar 22, 2010)

piggybaker said:


> Fox *hunting* needs to happen, not the sport where they have men going around with terriers and radios guiding the horses and dogs and flushing out the foxes,


No it does not...the fox population may need humanely *controlling*, I've no answers as to how though...

How much of the fox population is due to fox hunters previously breeding/importing/introducing foxes to an area so they had a supply of foxes chase and to hunt...

(Oh, I should add, I've not read this thread, too much of it to read)


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Emmily said:


> No it does not...the fox population may need humanely *controlling*, I've no answers as to how though...
> 
> How much of the fox population is due to fox hunters previously breeding/importing/introducing foxes to an area so they had a supply of foxes chase and to hunt...
> 
> (Oh, I should add, I've not read this thread, too much of it to read)


Point taken but think about it what other ways shooting,, they could miss the fox would be injuried and spend days die a slow death ,, poisen (SP) same slow death, snare again slow death, trapping in a humain cage to shoot,, I feel this is on the same line as the hunt,but the fox is trapped and scared till the human comes to kill it,

dogs chase death!!!!

They cause problems, they are only trying to live out there life, reguardles of who or what they came from, but they cause problems and are a menace, they need to be controlled.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

haha these threads always make me laugh.  why bother posting them? 



always ends in tears... :thumbup:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

As human beings we should care and protect ALL species of animal. They struggle with life badly as it is without us making it worse for our OWN satisfaction.

I can understand some species need to be controlled but it should be done so for the benefit of the animal(s) involved.

It should also be done with the upmost respect for the animal that will be on 'death row'

So if Foxes need to be controlled it should be done by expert gunman with the least stress on the Fox and a very quick sudden death with very little or no pain at all.

What a lot of people seem to forget is many many Vixens get slaughtered and leave behind cubs :frown: those poor babies will die the most horrible way by starvation 

All the poor Fox has done wrong is been born a Fox they are actually an innocent animal, and part of the canine family. Yes they kill chickens etc but they DO do it to survive. They also never asked to be ''vermin''' they do not chose to have diseases :frown: :frown:


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Acacia86 said:


> As human beings we should care and protect ALL species of animal. They struggle with life badly as it is without us making it worse for our OWN satisfaction.
> 
> I can understand some species need to be controlled but it should be done so for the benefit of the animal(s) involved.
> 
> ...


While I agree with your points, but fox hunting with hounds is the only method which isn't done when cubs are around.
This does need to be addressed.


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> While I agree with your points, but fox hunting with hounds is the only method which isn't done when cubs are around.
> This does need to be addressed.


no hunts go one better than that!

Hunts test the hound puppies on fox cubs. Its the charming practice of cubbing, the tiny fox-cubs are poked out or dug out from their homes, and forced into the path of the young hounds - already toughened up and ready to mutilate. The young hounds eat the fox pups alive


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Shamen said:


> no hunts go one better than that!
> 
> Hunts test the hound puppies on fox cubs. Its the charming practice of cubbing, the tiny fox-cubs are poked out or dug out from their homes, and forced into the path of the young hounds - already toughened up and ready to mutilate. The young hounds eat the fox pups alive


I imagin after the first shake the cub would be dead, we need not hype it up with ..... they eat them alive, I do not agree with this practise.


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## Tapir (Mar 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> no hunts go one better than that!
> 
> Hunts test the hound puppies on fox cubs. Its the charming practice of cubbing, the tiny fox-cubs are poked out or dug out from their homes, and forced into the path of the young hounds - already toughened up and ready to mutilate. The young hounds eat the fox pups alive


haha you love your emotive language don't you


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> no hunts go one better than that!
> 
> Hunts test the hound puppies on fox cubs. Its the charming practice of cubbing, the tiny fox-cubs are poked out or dug out from their homes, and forced into the path of the young hounds - already toughened up and ready to mutilate. The young hounds eat the fox pups alive


Cubbing doesn't start until the autumn, when the cubs are fully grown 
Well it doesn't start because it's BANNED


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

rona said:


> Cubbing doesn't start until the autumn, when the cubs are fully grown
> Well it doesn't start because it's BANNED


but they arnt fully grown they are 5/7 months old hence the name 'cubbing'! Its utterly barbaric the cubs are still completely and utterly inexperienced and still dependent on their mothers

and i have seen the accounts of Clifford Pellow a proffesional fox hunter for 25yrs, some of the cubs dug up were tiny babies.

more reasons for it to stay BANNED!


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

piggybaker said:


> I imagin after the first shake the cub would be dead, we need not hype it up with ..... they eat them alive, I do not agree with this practise.


no hype needed ! ive seen a greyhound eat a baby rabbit alive 



Tapir said:


> haha you love your emotive language don't you


are you just trying to flame this thread


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## piggybaker (Feb 10, 2009)

Shamen said:


> no hype needed ! ive seen a greyhound eat a baby rabbit alive
> 
> :


OK without getting argumentative,, educate me I thought each dog has its own sort of hunting techneic, a grey hounds jaw is slim a hound dog have strong wide powerful jaws, surley the impact on the prey is different?


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

piggybaker said:


> OK without getting argumentative,, educate me I thought each dog has its own sort of hunting techneic, a grey hounds jaw is slim a hound dog have strong wide powerful jaws, surley the impact on the prey is different?


why would you get argumentative its not my problem if you dont think a hound could eat something as small as a fox cub is it! its pretty obvious they can to me but your not going to listen to what i say, so maybe you should read up on it and educate yourself


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Shamen said:


> why would you get argumentative its not my problem if you dont think a hound could eat something as small as a fox cub is it! its pretty obvious they can to me but your not going to listen to what i say, so maybe you should read up on it and educate yourself


Well that was very rude, you were asked a civil question.
You seem to only see and hear what you want, and never accept others views, even if those views basically agree with your main points.
Please can you tell us if you have had experience of any of this or is it all from published sources?
If it is from published sources, please can we have some links


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

Tapir said:


> haha these threads always make me laugh.  why bother posting them?
> 
> always ends in tears... :thumbup:





Tapir said:


> haha you love your emotive language don't you


and do you consider these posts as thread flaming?



rona said:


> Well that was very rude, you were asked a civil question.
> You seem to only see and hear what you want, and never accept others views, even if those views basically agree with your main points.
> Please can you tell us if you have had experience of any of this or is it all from published sources?
> If it is from published sources, please can we have some links


i apologise to PB then but i though they were winding me up, how could i explain the impact of different dog breeds on prey

i wont publish all my sources because i think you'll just tell me its media hype or a bias source, but this evidence is from someone who actually worked for the hunts and was sacked Individual Submission by Clifford Pellow


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

some people make me laugh they know all about hunting and what goes on they sit at home or on computers they have never had any experiance then they come on here like an expert they know nothing


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## kaz_f (Mar 8, 2009)

Well I've lived in the countryside for 33 years and experienced hunts first hand on many occasions so that comment doesn't apply to me 

I'd never post about summat I didn't know about


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## Guest (May 20, 2010)

borderer said:


> some people make me laugh they know all about hunting and what goes on they sit at home or on computers they have never had any experiance then they come on here like an expert they know nothing


i know plenty and ive seen plenty, and like plenty of other people i find fox/stag hunting barbaric! how ever you dress it up its inhumane!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> ok i get your point now, although i cant really speak for other people i'll try, maybe some do sweep it under the carpet and maybe some arnt even aware of the suffering caused by intensive farming methods because its behind closed doors,some may even think its acceptable to treat animals bred to produce their food this way i dont know, but i dont think people seem more outraged at fox hunting because its sensationalised because it isnt! it might have more publicity but you dont need to sensationalise it! theres plenty of video footage showing the sickening brutality of one animal being persued over the countryside by a baying mob and their hounds for fun, plenty of footage of the cruelty inflicted on foxes who have gone to ground only to be dug up! i think saying joe public is jumping on the band wagon is really patronising tbh!
> 
> and as for sparrowhawkes they have to kill to survive its us who need to get our house in order and ensure there is plenty of habitat for song birds.
> 
> a dog could do that and theyre not vermin either


But you see I think fox hunting is sensationalised, there are, to me at least, a lot more campaigns around, surrounding hunting with dogs, shooting, and countryside sports - I know you don't see them that way so I'm not asking you to agree with the names. It's labelled cruel, should be outlawed etc, etc. Where do you see any campaigns asking people to consider the food on their table? The suffering it's gone through to get on their plate, and, most importantly, to show respect for that animal by utilising it properly?? If certain farming methods were banned and the cost of produce increased, people would be up in arms at having to pay more. I'm not meaning to sound critical, but your statement to me, shows that you subconsicously think of the two as different, one seems to be more acceptable, you seem far more outraged by hunting with hounds, shooting etc, than you do by the fact that cruelty is far more widespread by putting food on our plates via poor farming practices, and the wasted lives from people who don't make the most of this produce. And another thing to ponder is other produce that is flown in from other countries, the damage we are doing to other environments, beef from Botswana, where the cattle have decimated the countryside, their hooves do so much more damage than indigenous species, and if you think farming methods in this country are cruel! Even vegetables, loss of habitat to grow food so we can have mange tout in December. All these practices combined do far more damage overall, than hunting with or without hounds.

I sort of agree with you about sparrowhawks and garden birds, but what about current measures to ensure garden birds do survive in better numbers? Is it out of the question to humanely cull an over populated predator to allow other species to thrive? Or do we just allow numbers to decline because it hasn't been managed well in the past? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, it isn't nice to think about having to cull any species, particularly birds of prey, but unfortunately populations of some species need managing. I'm all for controlling grey squirrels in a much more aggressive manner, and mink, they are changing our countryside for the worse.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Where do you see any campaigns asking people to consider the food on their table? The suffering it's gone through to get on their plate, and, most importantly, to show respect for that animal by utilising it properly?? If certain farming methods were banned and the cost of produce increased, people would be up in arms at having to pay more. I'm not meaning to sound critical, but your statement to me, shows that you subconsicously think of the two as different, one seems to be more acceptable, you seem far more outraged by hunting with hounds, shooting etc, than you do by the fact that cruelty is far more widespread by putting food on our plates via poor farming practices, and the wasted lives from people who don't make the most of this produce.
> .


I used to go out hunt saboteuring years ago so have seen many foxes killed by hounds - alot did not die outight & suffered immensely.
BUT I do agree with the comments above, people seem to get very upset about fox hunting but will happily eat meat that has come from animals who have experienced terrible conditions throughout their miserable lives. I, personally find this very hypocritical as at least the fox lived a natural life prior to it's death. I get far more upset about factory farming but as previously stated people don't want to pay more for animals reared in more humane conditions, it's all very easy being against something that doesn't affect you.


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I used to go out hunt saboteuring years ago so have seen many foxes killed by hounds - alot did not die outight & suffered immensely.
> BUT I do agree with the comments above, people seem to get very upset about fox hunting but will happily eat meat that has come from animals who have experienced terrible conditions throughout their miserable lives. I, personally find this very hypocritical as at least the fox lived a natural life prior to it's death. I get far more upset about factory farming but as previously stated people don't want to pay more for animals reared in more humane conditions, it's all very easy being against something that doesn't affect you.


You have far more knowledge than I about fox hunting. I have never felt the need to go either sabbing or hunting.
That's why I like to hear what others have to say on the subject, but only those that have first hand experience. You can never learn about subjects like these from hearsay. Things tend to be exaggerated more and more with the telling


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Shamen said:


> no hype needed ! ive seen a greyhound eat a baby rabbit alive


Why are you bringing up Greyhounds when we have already established the fact that this is about Fox Hunting, not Lamping or Coursing.

They don't use Greyhound for fox hunts. Greyhounds as well as lurchers are mainly used for Lamping or Coursing. There are seasons that a lamper must abide by and that is that you don't work your dogs during the spring/summer months, as all you will catch are babies, which is why you should only work your dogs Autumn/Winter. People who do rabbiting do not intentionally go out to catch baby rabbits, as there is no point as it will not feed you or your dogs. You go out to catch the bigger ones, mainly bucks.

If you are using a greyhound cross to illegally catch fox's then it would usually be a very large bull x as a Greyhound would not have the strength to bring down a fox on its own. If someone is out foxing with a lurcher than a) it is illegal to catch foxes b) it is illegal to catch with more than 2 dogs.

Not everyone that works their dogs are bad people who dont belive in the animals welfare.

Back to the subject..........


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But you see I think fox hunting is sensationalised, there are, to me at least, a lot more campaigns around, surrounding hunting with dogs, shooting, and countryside sports - I know you don't see them that way so I'm not asking you to agree with the names. It's labelled cruel, should be outlawed etc, etc. Where do you see any campaigns asking people to consider the food on their table? The suffering it's gone through to get on their plate, and, most importantly, to show respect for that animal by utilising it properly?? If certain farming methods were banned and the cost of produce increased, people would be up in arms at having to pay more. I'm not meaning to sound critical, but your statement to me, shows that you subconsicously think of the two as different, one seems to be more acceptable, you seem far more outraged by hunting with hounds, shooting etc, than you do by the fact that cruelty is far more widespread by putting food on our plates via poor farming practices, and the wasted lives from people who don't make the most of this produce. And another thing to ponder is other produce that is flown in from other countries, the damage we are doing to other environments, beef from Botswana, where the cattle have decimated the countryside, their hooves do so much more damage than indigenous species, and if you think farming methods in this country are cruel! Even vegetables, loss of habitat to grow food so we can have mange tout in December. All these practices combined do far more damage overall, than hunting with or without hounds.
> 
> I sort of agree with you about sparrowhawks and garden birds, but what about current measures to ensure garden birds do survive in better numbers? Is it out of the question to humanely cull an over populated predator to allow other species to thrive? Or do we just allow numbers to decline because it hasn't been managed well in the past? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, it isn't nice to think about having to cull any species, particularly birds of prey, but unfortunately populations of some species need managing. I'm all for controlling grey squirrels in a much more aggressive manner, and mink, they are changing our countryside for the worse.


errrm sorry but i can asure you i DONT subconcsiously find poor farming practices more acceptable! infact i became an ovo vegetarian some 25 years ago when i found out about the horrors of the meat industry and have got off my ass to support animal aid and campaign against this and vivisection aswell. Yes i agree poor farming does cause more numbers of animals to suffer but cruelty has to be addressed where ever it occurs! but this thread as far as i was aware was about hunting with dogs.

but its not about culling the predator though is it as the RSPB studies have found its our fault not theirs, so why should they pay with their lives and no we dont let numbers decline we sort out the Real problem and i agree if non native species are causing a problem then they should be culled, but once again as humanely as possible.


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Phoenix&Charlie'sMum said:


> Why are you bringing up Greyhounds when we have already established the fact that this is about Fox Hunting, not Lamping or Coursing.
> 
> They don't use Greyhound for fox hunts. Greyhounds as well as lurchers are mainly used for Lamping or Coursing. There are seasons that a lamper must abide by and that is that you don't work your dogs during the spring/summer months, as all you will catch are babies, which is why you should only work your dogs Autumn/Winter. People who do rabbiting do not intentionally go out to catch baby rabbits, as there is no point as it will not feed you or your dogs. You go out to catch the bigger ones, mainly bucks.
> 
> ...


i wasnt getting at you it was just to prove a point that dogs can eat animals alive


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I used to go out hunt saboteuring years ago so have seen many foxes killed by hounds - alot did not die outight & suffered immensely.
> BUT I do agree with the comments above, people seem to get very upset about fox hunting but will happily eat meat that has come from animals who have experienced terrible conditions throughout their miserable lives. I, personally find this very hypocritical as at least the fox lived a natural life prior to it's death. I get far more upset about factory farming but as previously stated people don't want to pay more for animals reared in more humane conditions, it's all very easy being against something that doesn't affect you.


ive been too and seen some awful sights! and tbh wether theyve lived wild or not with all the atrocities that goes on i cant see how anyone can justify it

has anyone read the account of Clifford Pellow? or has that been conveniently over looked


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## Phoenix&Charlie'sMum (Oct 12, 2009)

Shamen said:


> i wasnt getting at you it was just to prove a point that dogs can eat animals alive


OK thank you.  Sorry didnt mean to jump on the band wagon


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> errrm sorry but i can asure you i DONT subconcsiously find poor farming practices more acceptable! infact i became an ovo vegetarian some 25 years ago when i found out about the horrors of the meat industry and have got off my ass to support animal aid and campaign against this and vivisection aswell. Yes i agree poor farming does cause more numbers of animals to suffer but cruelty has to be addressed where ever it occurs! but this thread as far as i was aware was about hunting with dogs.
> 
> but its not about culling the predator though is it as the RSPB studies have found its our fault not theirs, so why should they pay with their lives and no we dont let numbers decline we sort out the Real problem and i agree if non native species are causing a problem then they should be culled, but once again as humanely as possible.


So you don't buy vegetables or fruit that are out of season, you ensure you source all your products ethically? Yes, the thread was about hunting with dogs, but my point is, you find much more cruelty and suffering else where, so really, in the great scheme of things, you're talking about a few animals versus thousands upon thousands. Not meant to be accusatory in any way, but just to try and show how difficult it is to even buy vegetables ethically 

If your/or my, Auntie Blossom got cancer, you/I'd be thankful of all the drugs that have been developed to help her through it, or would you condemn her for having drugs that you know were developed using animal testing?

Everything we have, all the *stuff* in life, comes from something suffering somewhere, unless you're a hermit. That's the point I have been trying to get across, but we choose to focus on a few things, God forbid we focus on anything that would make our lives difficult or mean we live shorter more painful lives ourselves.

Ummmm, the RSPB, absolute twaddle, they are a charitable organisation that has overstepped it's mark more than once with political aims, and have done more harm than good in some areas. They need sorting out as much as the over population of sparrowhawks in some areas


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So you don't buy vegetables or fruit that are out of season, you ensure you source all your products ethically? Yes, the thread was about hunting with dogs, but my point is, you find much more cruelty and suffering else where, so really, in the great scheme of things, you're talking about a few animals versus thousands upon thousands.
> 
> If your/or my, Auntie Blossom got cancer, you/I'd be thankful of all the drugs that have been developed to help her through it, or would you condemn her for having drugs that you know were developed using animal testing?
> 
> ...


I personally dont condone other cruelty just because I am against hunting for fun which is what the thread is about. If there were threads about other types of cruelty it would make me just as upset. I am sure when other people post about there topics of choice for example depression you dont say it dont matter cos there are many more problems out there so why focus on that one :confused1: They are all important and people dont have to justify why they are anti slaughter so someone can have a great day out :frown:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> I personally dont condone other cruelty just because I am against hunting for fun which is what the thread is about. If there were threads about other types of cruelty it would make me just as upset. I am sure when other people post about there topics of choice for example depression you dont say it dont matter cos there are many more problems out there so why focus on that one :confused1: They are all important and people dont have to justify why they are anti slaughter so someone can have a great day out :frown:


I'm not condoning any cruelty  just trying to point out it goes on all the time, and many people are willing to turn a blind eye to one type of cruelty, or don't even think about it and focus on those that are shoved under our noses.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm not condoning any cruelty  just trying to point out it goes on all the time, and many people are willing to turn a blind eye to one type of cruelty, or don't even think about it and focus on those that are shoved under our noses.


And thats the point that I was making was that just because someone is against hunting dont mean they turn a blind eye to other types of cruelty, its just that those types arent what this particular thread is about, if it was then most peeps would be against that too


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Perhaps to ease tensions and anxieties we should apply some form of segregation to certain controversial topics. To save heightening tensions and misunderstandings on this thread, for example, it should be entitled For all those who are pro hunting and then perhaps a sister thread For all those opposed to hunting 
For those who are pro hunt, they can talk about the many different ways of terrorising innocent woodland creatures and organise and take their young children to Badger baiting events whilst those against can discuss such matters as Fox sanctuaries, Badger havens and even a Water world for Otters. 
This way we have the choice of living in whatever world we choose to live in without any fear of contention. 

Why do the ordinary folks have to fall out over problems always caused by the 845T4RD5 supposedly in charge?


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Perhaps to ease tensions and anxieties we should apply some form of segregation to certain controversial topics. To save heightening tensions and misunderstandings on this thread, for example, it should be entitled For all those who are pro hunting and then perhaps a sister thread For all those opposed to hunting
> For those who are pro hunt, they can talk about the many different ways of terrorising innocent woodland creatures and organise and take their young children to Badger baiting events whilst those against can discuss such matters as Fox sanctuaries, Badger havens and even a Water world for Otters.
> This way we have the choice of living in whatever world we choose to live in without any fear of contention.
> 
> Why do the ordinary folks have to fall out over problems always caused by the 845T4RD5 supposedly in charge?


Very calming post :thumbup: :thumbup: :lol: :lol:


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Perhaps to ease tensions and anxieties we should apply some form of segregation to certain controversial topics. To save heightening tensions and misunderstandings on this thread, for example, it should be entitled For all those who are pro hunting and then perhaps a sister thread For all those opposed to hunting
> For those who are pro hunt, they can talk about the many different ways of terrorising innocent woodland creatures and organise and take their young children to Badger baiting events whilst those against can discuss such matters as Fox sanctuaries, Badger havens and even a Water world for Otters.
> This way we have the choice of living in whatever world we choose to live in without any fear of contention.
> 
> Why do the ordinary folks have to fall out over problems always caused by the 845T4RD5 supposedly in charge?


:lol: good points :thumbup:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Zaros said:


> Perhaps to ease tensions and anxieties we should apply some form of segregation to certain controversial topics. To save heightening tensions and misunderstandings on this thread, for example, it should be entitled For all those who are pro hunting and then perhaps a sister thread For all those opposed to hunting
> For those who are pro hunt, they can talk about the many different ways of terrorising innocent woodland creatures and organise and take their young children to Badger baiting events whilst those against can discuss such matters as Fox sanctuaries, Badger havens and even a Water world for Otters.
> This way we have the choice of living in whatever world we choose to live in without any fear of contention.
> 
> Why do the ordinary folks have to fall out over problems always caused by the 845T4RD5 supposedly in charge?


:lol::lol:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Wasn't it the ordinary folk that put the 845T4RD5 in charge?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> And thats the point that I was making was that just because someone is against hunting dont mean they turn a blind eye to other types of cruelty, its just that those types arent what this particular thread is about, if it was then most peeps would be against that too


Do you think most people think about that though? I'm talking about the vast majority of people, who fill up their trollies at Tesco's or any other supermarket, because of the convenience, I can't see that sort of person looking at the labels and making a conscious decision not to buy something because they might have read somewhere, or heard something about that particular brand not being ethical? I can't actually see that sort of person looking at the labels to be honest. And that's the point I'm trying to make, we don't think day to day about all the crap that goes on that we actively support without thinking, and yet we feel good about ourselves for being anti fox hunting/stag hunting, because that's obviously cruel isn't it? Aren't we kidding ourselves??

Just to add, I don't think the thread needs calming down, I hope it's been a good debate, with different view points, and nice to read other peoples' take on things.


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just to add, I don't think the thread needs calming down, I hope it's been a good debate, with different view points, and nice to read other peoples' take on things.


Neither do I but it was an amusing post


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Do you think most people think about that though? I'm talking about the vast majority of people, who fill up their trollies at Tesco's or any other supermarket, because of the convenience, I can't see that sort of person looking at the labels and making a conscious decision not to buy something because they might have read somewhere, or heard something about that particular brand not being ethical? I can't actually see that sort of person looking at the labels to be honest. And that's the point I'm trying to make, we don't think day to day about all the crap that goes on that we actively support without thinking, and yet we feel good about ourselves for being anti fox hunting/stag hunting, because that's obviously cruel isn't it? Aren't we kidding ourselves??
> 
> Just to add, I don't think the thread needs calming down, I hope it's been a good debate, with different view points, and nice to read other peoples' take on things.


Yeah not sure tbh but I do I read the labels and I am vegetarian (confess to eating meat for a period for private reasons but felt guilty as hell about it  ) I also go out of my way to avoid products I am aware promote or are made from cruelty as much as possible. It isnt always easy but I do care enough to try at least 
And yes I understand your point totally and agree most peeps are prolly that way, I am just talking bout myself and others on this thread who do the best they can


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Waterlily said:


> I personally dont condone other cruelty just because I am against hunting for fun which is what the thread is about. If there were threads about other types of cruelty it would make me just as upset. I am sure when other people post about there topics of choice for example depression you dont say it dont matter cos there are many more problems out there so why focus on that one :confused1: They are all important and people dont have to justify why they are anti slaughter so someone can have a great day out :frown:





Waterlily said:


> And thats the point that I was making was that just because someone is against hunting dont mean they turn a blind eye to other types of cruelty, its just that those types arent what this particular thread is about, if it was then most peeps would be against that too


exactly, i totally agree with this


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

From my experience of hunt sabbing & form working at stables (years ago!) I don't think that many people involved in the hunt really stop to think about the fox, alot just think it's a good ride out for the day. 
I've never understood why drag hunting isn't more popular really as you get all the fun without the grisly end.
The worst ones I found were cubbing, where the hounds are trained to hunt foxes. The fox cubs have no chance of escape so there's no justification of a 'fair' chance of excape as exits are blocked. 
Actually the more I think about it the more horrible memories come back - I used to try not to cry when we were out as I didn't want the hunts wo/men & supporters to see they were getting to me.


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Wasn't it the ordinary folk that put the 845T4RD5 in charge?


nice one love it :thumbup::thumbup:


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Havent read the whole thread so apolagies... 

I take Kira down the local fields and we go 'hunting'... No guns or anything, not lamping... The rabbit has a great chance of survival, its all luck/chance... If she catches one (shes on a lead) then she is allowed to kill it, she's asked to leave, its put in a bag and taken home, where she can have it for tea. She might catch 5... she might catch none... its luck, and a little skill on her part (I just get dragged along behind lol)

I dont see it as cruel, she kills within seconds, and the meat isnt gone to waste, we're overpopulated with rabbits so whats the biggie?


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

sid&kira said:


> Havent read the whole thread so apolagies...
> 
> I take Kira down the local fields and we go 'hunting'... No guns or anything, not lamping... The rabbit has a great chance of survival, its all luck/chance... If she catches one (shes on a lead) then she is allowed to kill it, she's asked to leave, its put in a bag and taken home, where she can have it for tea. She might catch 5... she might catch none... its luck, and a little skill on her part (I just get dragged along behind lol)
> 
> I dont see it as cruel, she kills within seconds, and the meat isnt gone to waste, we're overpopulated with rabbits so whats the biggie?


Even though thats something I wouldnt do its not the same as hunting for fun


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Waterlily said:


> Even though thats something I wouldnt do its not the same as hunting for fun


Its fun for her lol, but also feeds her (and OH may cook up one if she gets more than 1)

I used to look away when she killed but I'v got used to it now


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't see that as a bad thing you're hunting for food not just for the fun of it.


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have a few friends who go out rabbiting, it keeps the population of rabbits down where they would increase in huge numbers,





sid&kira said:


> we're overpopulated with rabbits


do ya know i hear this time and time again! why dont people just leave the fox alone and let 'him' get on with it!


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> I personally dont condone other cruelty just because I am against hunting for fun which is what the thread is about. If there were threads about other types of cruelty it would make me just as upset. I am sure when other people post about there topics of choice for example depression you dont say it dont matter cos there are many more problems out there so why focus on that one :confused1: They are all important and people dont have to justify why they are anti slaughter so someone can have a great day out :frown:





Waterlily said:


> And thats the point that I was making was that just because someone is against hunting dont mean they turn a blind eye to other types of cruelty, its just that those types arent what this particular thread is about, if it was then most peeps would be against that too


Excellent posts and thank you Waterlily you said that so much better than me x


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm pretty sure they've tried that and introducing other predators in places not to mention deliberately introducing diseases . Rabbits are one of the species that are incredibly hard to control


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Do you think most people think about that though? I'm talking about the vast majority of people, who fill up their trollies at Tesco's or any other supermarket, because of the convenience, I can't see that sort of person looking at the labels and making a conscious decision not to buy something because they might have read somewhere, or heard something about that particular brand not being ethical? I can't actually see that sort of person looking at the labels to be honest. And that's the point I'm trying to make, we don't think day to day about all the crap that goes on that we actively support without thinking,
> 
> Just to add, I don't think the thread needs calming down, I hope it's been a good debate, with different view points, and nice to read other peoples' take on things.


im like Waterlily i try my best to shop ethically i always check lables for ingredients that i know either damage the environment or are tested on animals and it does bother me that probably the majority of people dont seem to bother, but thats a subject for another thread.

and i agree with your last comment


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I'm pretty sure they've tried that and introducing other predators in places not to mention deliberately introducing diseases . Rabbits are one of the species that are incredibly hard to control


where have they tried it? and what other predators have they introduced? im really intruiged?

the fox is great at controlling rabbits and rodents


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Now you're asking I did it in population ecology a couple of years ago. I'll see if I can find links for you


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Now you're asking I did it in population ecology a couple of years ago. I'll see if I can find links for you


thank you


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I know Australia and a few other places deliberately introduced diseases to try and control the population


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I know Australia and a few other places deliberately introduced diseases to try and control the population


yes but Australia has a very fragile eco system, the rabbit and the fox have done untold damage over there because they arnt native to that continent.

here a bit of info on fox control of rabbit populations. Common sense really isnt it

In rural areas of Britain, 45% to 70% of the diet of foxes is made up by rabbits. During its lifetime, by eating rabbits each fox might be worth £150-£900 in increased revenue to farmers.

In areas with high levels of predator control, where fox density is lower, rabbit density is higher and there seems to a negative link between predator control and rabbit abundance, i.e. rabbits seem to thrive where there are fewer foxes


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh I know that rabbits are Spanish/Portugese originally and they caused mayhem in Australia.

Yes but too many foxes and the rabbit population goes down too far therefore number of foxes decreases. That messes with the whole ecosystem. There does need to be control but both populations need to be at a sustainable level


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Oh I know that rabbits are Spanish/Portugese originally and they caused mayhem in Australia.
> 
> Yes but too many foxes and the rabbit population goes down too far therefore number of foxes decreases. That messes with the whole ecosystem. There does need to be control but both populations need to be at a sustainable level


This is sad but this is also why Aust eradicates them (notice it aint for fun though  ) 
*
In Australia, feral animals typically have few natural predators or fatal diseases and some have high reproductive rates. As a result, their populations have not naturally diminished and they can multiply rapidly if conditions are favourable.

Feral animals impact on native species by predation, competition for food and shelter, destroying habitat, and by spreading diseases.

The Rabbit-eared Bandicoot or Bilby needs a constant supply of carbohydrate-rich seeds and roots. Feral animals such as rabbits graze or degrade vegetation that provides food and shelter for them and other native animals. If vegetation is destroyed or eaten by feral animals, the Bilby and other native species are placed under greater pressure. Feral cats and foxes hunt and kill native birds, mammals, reptiles and insects. It is known that this behaviour threatens the survival of many threatened species.

Feral animals can cause soil erosion. While managed domestic livestock can be removed from degraded areas until these areas are revegetated, it is much more difficult to keep feral animals out of these same areas.

Feral animals can carry the same common diseases as domestic animals. They are a constant source of reinfection for wildlife and livestock, which works against efforts to control costly diseases such as tuberculosis. Feral animals are also potential carriers of other animal diseases (such as rabies and foot and mouth disease) and parasites (such as the screw worm fly). So far, these do not occur in Australia. An outbreak among Australia's wildlife would have an immediate and widespread effect, and would be disastrous for our environment. In some cases it would also be very difficult to control these diseases and parasites if feral animals carried them.*


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Oh I know that rabbits are Spanish/Portugese originally and they caused mayhem in Australia.
> 
> Yes but too many foxes and the rabbit population goes down too far therefore number of foxes decreases. That messes with the whole ecosystem. There does need to be control but both populations need to be at a sustainable level


well obviously there arnt too many foxes at the moment are there if everyones knee deep in rabbits


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> This is sad but this is also why Aust eradicates them (notice it aint for fun though  )
> *
> In Australia, feral animals typically have few natural predators or fatal diseases and some have high reproductive rates. As a result, their populations have not naturally diminished and they can multiply rapidly if conditions are favourable.
> 
> ...


thanks for this..although not nice the fox has to be eliminated from Australia, he dosent belong there he should never have been introduced, Flaming Fox hunters have a lot to answer for


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Shamen said:


> im like Waterlily i try my best to shop ethically i always check lables for ingredients that i know either damage the environment or are tested on animals and it does bother me that probably the majority of people dont seem to bother, but thats a subject for another thread.
> 
> and i agree with your last comment


Lol, we can agree on at least one thing then!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Fox hunters introduced rabbits to Australia? :confused1:


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Shamen said:


> thanks for this..although not nice the fox has to be eliminated from Australia, he dosent belong there he should never have been introduced, Flaming Fox hunters have a lot to answer for


There are a few feral animals introduced here that shouldnt be here and its a real shame that peeps were so ignorant at that time


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Fox hunters introduced rabbits to Australia? :confused1:


from my gov site 

*Since they were introduced for recreational hunting in the mid-1800s, foxes have spread across most of Australia. They have played a major role in the decline of a number of species of native animals and they also prey on newborn lambs. Control of foxes relies heavily on conventional techniques such as shooting, poisoning and fencing. In the future, a combination of biological and conventional control methods may be able to reduce the damage foxes cause.*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

They did it all over the world rats and dogs into Mauritius where they wiped out the dodo and other species because they had no natural fear of predators. They genuinely didn't know but now we have to clean up the mess


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> They did it all over the world rats and dogs into Mauritius where they wiped out the dodo and other species because they had no natural fear of predators. They genuinely didn't know but now we have to clean up the mess


they did know, they just genuinely didn't care.


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Lol, we can agree on at least one thing then!


pmsl seems so



Nicky10 said:


> Fox hunters introduced rabbits to Australia? :confused1:


i believe thats why:frown:


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## owieprone (Nov 6, 2008)

Shamen said:


> pmsl seems so
> 
> i believe thats why:frown:


apparently not. they seem to have been taken over as food in 1788, quick growing, quick breeding, easy fed, easy looked after.

they were released for hunting first by one man (as the story goes) in 1859

FeralFeast! - Rabbits - History of Rabbits in Australia


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

owieprone said:


> apparently not. they seem to have been taken over as food in 1788, quick growing, quick breeding, easy fed, easy looked after.
> 
> they were released for hunting first by one man (as the story goes) in 1859
> 
> FeralFeast! - Rabbits - History of Rabbits in Australia


oopsy i quoted wrong foxes were bought here for fun to hunt. I misunderstood.  what a twot aye what damage he has done


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Fox hunters introduced rabbits to Australia? :confused1:





Shamen said:


> pmsl seems so
> 
> i believe thats why:frown:





owieprone said:


> apparently not. they seem to have been taken over as food in 1788, quick growing, quick breeding, easy fed, easy looked after.
> 
> they were released for hunting first by one man (as the story goes) in 1859
> 
> FeralFeast! - Rabbits - History of Rabbits in Australia


oops i didnt read it properly i thought Nicky was meaning foxes:blush2: lol


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Shamen said:


> oops i didnt read it properly i thought Nicky was meaning foxes:blush2: lol


same here  :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (May 21, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> same here  :lol: :lol:


lmao i think we need our eyes testing!:lol::lol:


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