# im not religious really......



## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

but, ive just had a lovely conversation with a Jehovah's witness lol
im in such a good mood, i usually say im not interested but i thought i would give her 5 mins of my time, she was lovely, we spoke mostly of cats lol

she asked me if i knew that god has a name, so i said "yes, hes called god" lol

apparently hes called Jehovah. who would have thought it!!


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## forgotten~myth (May 30, 2010)

Awwww thats really sweet! I didnt know that he had a name?????:


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

forgotten~myth said:


> Awwww thats really sweet! I didnt know that he had a name?????:


i think hes just called Jehovah to that religion.

i think to christians hes just called God. :s
im a none practicing christian


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

Hm Jehovah! I can't see the name catching tbh  

You have more patience than me! The last time they came around to my house, Jon had been working in the garden, he clocked them coming and dived into the house... The door was open as they came up the path. Luke who was only 11 then walked past the door, they spoke to him and the Luke shouted at the top of his voice ( me and Jon were 'busy' in the kitchen ) MUUUUMMMMM! THERE'S A THING AT THE DOOR!!!! WANTS TO TALK ABOUT GOD OR SUMMAT! MUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!! :scared: :lol:


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

MissShelley said:


> Hm Jehovah! I can't see the name catching tbh
> 
> You have more patience than me! The last time they came around to my house, Jon had been working in the garden, he clocked them coming and dived into the house... The door was open as they came up the path. Luke who was only 11 then walked past the door, they spoke to him and the Luke shouted at the top of his voice ( me and Jon were 'busy' in the kitchen ) MUUUUMMMMM! THERE'S A THING AT THE DOOR!!!! WANTS TO TALK ABOUT GOD OR SUMMAT! MUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!! :scared: :lol:


awww no!! i bet you almost died!! lol

how embarrising!
ive got the patience of a saint me lol.
but any religion im interested in what they believe in, but i can never understand why they believe it. my OH said something to me that made me think

If there really was a god who created this whole world etc then everyone would follow the same religion as there will only be 1 true story lol


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Sorry, couldn't help myself...


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

He he, a religious sharkie!! (hope he isnt catholic, I cant see anyone wanting to give him his communion wafers!!):lol:

My dad always used to claim to be a practising satanist when the god squad came round!! He liked to play religious russian roulette and see who ran first!!.(Ive tried it and it does get rid of them pretty sharpish!).


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> He he, a religious sharkie!! (hope he isnt catholic, I cant see anyone wanting to give him his communion wafers!!):lol:
> 
> My dad always used to claim to be a practising satanist when the god squad came round!! He liked to play religious russian roulette and see who ran first!!.(Ive tried it and it does get rid of them pretty sharpish!).


lol im not that cruel.

i dont like to say anything nasty to them as i respect their choices, and i dont know what to really say without sounding mean.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

vickie1985 said:


> awww no!! i bet you almost died!! lol
> 
> how embarrising!
> ive got the patience of a saint me lol.
> ...


Exactly  Luke was six years old when he asked the Vicar that had come to school one day "If God created the earth and all the animals, who created God?" :lol:


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

MissShelley said:


> Exactly  Luke was six years old when he asked the Vicar that had come to school one day "If God created the earth and all the animals, who created God?" :lol:


hahaha i asked who created god. i even asked my science teacher and he said "his mum and dad" lmao


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

my sister in law is a jehovahs witness thats why the are called that because they are his witnesses their aim is to tell everyone about jehovah so that when the time comes for the new system ( this is their belief) nobody can say they have never heard of him i have my own beliefs but it is interesting to listen to sometimes


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

what new system? im confused lol


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm a catholic and I have always ben taught his nmae is God and stilll ive by that now.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My ex husband became a JW after I kicked him out for cheating and other stuff. He then refused to even say 'Happy Birthday' to his then 8 year old daughter, let alone give her a card or birthday present. He continually tried to force the JW beliefs on her and her 9 year old sister when he deigned to take them out despite my requests for him not to. When my eldest told him not to as well, he stopped seeing them both and has never seen them since - they are now 25 and 26. My eldest is now a Baptist 'lay preacher' having been allowed since a child to choose her own path where religious belief was concerned as long as it was nothing extreme. My youngest is like myself, respects others beliefs but prefers the evidence of fossils and evolution.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> what new system? im confused lol


You went five minutes with a JW and didn't hear about Life on Paradise Earth??!

Liz


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

lizward said:


> You went five minutes with a JW and didn't hear about Life on Paradise Earth??!
> 
> Liz


lol i couldnt believe that either


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> My ex husband became a JW after I kicked him out for cheating and other stuff. He then refused to even say 'Happy Birthday' to his then 8 year old daughter, let alone give her a card or birthday present. He continually tried to force the JW beliefs on her and her 9 year old sister when he deigned to take them out despite my requests for him not to. When my eldest told him not to as well, he stopped seeing them both and has never seen them since - they are now 25 and 26. My eldest is now a Baptist 'lay preacher' having been allowed since a child to choose her own path where religious belief was concerned as long as it was nothing extreme. My youngest is like myself, respects others beliefs but prefers the evidence of fossils and evolution.


your the same as me then lol

thats awfull of your ex husband....giving up his kids due to his new religion basicly. i wont ever stop celebrating birthdays or christmas so i wouldnt make a very good witness lol

my nieces husband is a catholic and shes just had their 4 kids christened as catholics. my niece was christened the same as me. i have no idea about the catholic religion though


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

archiebaby said:


> my sister in law is a jehovahs witness thats why the are called that because they are his witnesses their aim is to tell everyone about jehovah so that when the time comes for the new system ( this is their belief) nobody can say they have never heard of him i have my own beliefs but it is interesting to listen to sometimes


I've always found the JW religion very interesting as well.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

lizward said:


> You went five minutes with a JW and didn't hear about Life on Paradise Earth??!
> 
> Liz


lol nope...i couldnt believe it myself!! 
she spoke about her love of cats and the only religious thing she said was about gods name lol

maybe next time anyone rings the bell i will show them my cats


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> I've always found the JW religion very interesting as well.


i must admit though i have fallen asleep on a couple of occasions when it was in full swing and my oh was throwing all these questions at his sister each to their own i say there is a lot i dont believe in within their religion but my sister in law and he husband have been tested in the worse way possible and i truly think if it hadnt been for their belief in jw they would never have got through the most terrible time you could imagine


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> awww no!! i bet you almost died!! lol
> 
> how embarrising!
> ive got the patience of a saint me lol.
> ...


Well there's the rub.......that is exactly what each and every religious fanatic thinks about his own religion.


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## Kaitlyn (Apr 28, 2010)

They always run when i open the door anyway.. they see the pentacle i wear and as what my beliefs are then move like the devil himselfs after them :lol:


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

pickle said:


> Well there's the rub.......that is exactly what each and every religious fanatic thinks about his own religion.


but how does someone choose a religion? how do we know which is true? lol
i find it all so fasinating now but i hated RE at school. lol


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

Kaitlyn said:


> They always run when i open the door anyway.. they see the pentacle i wear and as what my beliefs are then move like the devil himselfs after them :lol:


i just had to look up a pentacle  i really an ill educated.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

Kaitlyn said:


> They always run when i open the door anyway.. they see the pentacle i wear and as what my beliefs are then move like the devil himselfs after them :lol:


That shows their ignorance as the pentagram ( inverted pentacle, symbolising the goats head ) is the symbol of devil worshippers... The pentacle is a peaceful symbol, that was used in christianity, also a pagan symbol, nothing to do with devil worshipping, symbolising the five elements, Earth, Air, Water, Fire and Spirit


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> your the same as me then lol
> 
> thats awfull of your ex husband....giving up his kids due to his new religion basicly. i wont ever stop celebrating birthdays or christmas so i wouldnt make a very good witness lol


I once asked him why JWs would not celebrate birthdays etc and his answer was that many bad things had happened on peoples birthdays! :lol: I replied that as it was somebodies birthday everyday, the chances of bad things happening somewhere in in the world on that day were rather high!  



Kaitlyn said:


> They always run when i open the door anyway.. they see the pentacle i wear and as what my beliefs are then move like the devil himselfs after them :lol:


I have a *pentagram* ornament in my window just in case they cannot read and bypass the three signs I have, one on the gate, one on the mailbox and one on the door itself requesting no salesmen, religious callers etc. 



vickie1985 said:


> but how does someone choose a religion? how do we know which is true? lol
> i find it all so fasinating now but i hated RE at school. lol


I found RE very interesting and enjoyed it. I even passed the CSE with flying colours! But it still did not make me believe a book that was written by a succession of men over many years. I have been to Methodist, Baptist and Pentacostal churches, sat through many a service etc. But none of them persuaded me because I question things too much.  I cannot even do Paganism or Wicca because I simply don't 'do' Gods and Goddesses although I find the imagery calming and pleasant. I do however find anthropology and evolution fascinating and far more persuasive.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Yeah, Jehovah to them, Allah to the Muslims, and I think Judaism has a few names for God. I can never get over the arrogance of them all to believe they are the ones who got it right.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> lol nope...i couldnt believe it myself!!
> she spoke about her love of cats and the only religious thing she said was about gods name lol
> 
> maybe next time anyone rings the bell i will show them my cats


She's in need of more training (was she on her own??) - the way in is that they admire your cats, then they ask how you would like to cuddle a lion / tiger / leopard cub and so move on to "you can live forever on paradise earth"

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> but how does someone choose a religion? how do we know which is true?


You look at the evidence.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Yeah, Jehovah to them, Allah to the Muslims, and I think Judaism has a few names for God. I can never get over the arrogance of them all to believe they are the ones who got it right.


Do you not believe, then, that it is logically possible that there IS a religion that has got it right?

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Do you not believe, then, that it is logically possible that there IS a religion that has got it right?
> 
> Liz


Yes, I do. But until someone can give me some form of proof apart from 'you just have to have faith', I won't bother.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

she had a girl with her she must have been about 16. she didnt say a word


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Yes, I do. But until someone can give me some form of proof apart from 'you just have to have faith', I won't bother.


The proof you need is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> she had a girl with her she must have been about 16. she didnt say a word


Ah, that sounds more like it. They always have one who does most if not all of the talking, and another one who is learning.

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> Ah, that sounds more like it. They always have one who does most if not all of the talking, and another one who is learning.
> 
> Liz


Thats not true,i know lots of JW and they know their religion inside out but will still go door to door in pairs.I will stand corrected but i think you will find its more for safety.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> The proof you need is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.


Where is the proof of that?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> Thats not true,i know lots of JW and they know their religion inside out but will still go door to door in pairs.I will stand corrected but i think you will find its more for safety.


There may well be a safety element to it, especially these days when, if they are invited in (rare I'm sure!) they might be in danger of some false accusation. But surely there is a reason why only one does the talking?

Next time I see them, I'll ask.

Liz


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lizward said:


> The proof you need is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
> 
> Liz


:lol::lol: sorry

A few years ago we had some bible basher come to our door, the first thing he said was something like "Do you know who the most famous man, who ever lived is" yes I said "Elvis Presley". He just looked at me, as I said thank and closed the door. (I did say closed and not slammed)


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Where is the proof of that?


Ultimately, in the existence of the Christian church.

Now, I'll come clean. I am a committed Christian - Baptist Lay Preacher but with theological training to the level I would need for ordination. I could, and believe me I happily will, debate this for as long as you want (well, with breaks I mean, have to sort the animals out and prepare a sermon and go to church and I am supposed to be submitting an essay very soon for which I have so far done little work, and sleeeeep, etc etc, but you get the idea!). But you may not want to debate it to that extent and if I get involved I am not going to be dropping it in a hurry and I am certainly not going to start agreeing that all religions are equal and everyone is going to heaven.

So, up to you  - any takers? 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> A few years ago we had some bible basher come to our door, the first thing he said was something like "Do you know who the most famous man, who ever lived is" yes I said "Elvis Presley". He just looked at me, as I said thank and closed the door. (I did say closed and not slammed)


Yes well, that was a reply somewhat lacking in historical substance, if you don't mind me saying so! (rather good for getting rid of JWs though!)

liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I've had this debate sooooooooo many times.  Can I be bothered.....hmmmmm. Maybe you should start a new thread as this is hijacking.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Ultimately, in the existence of the Christian church.


So you mean - in faith. Well, I have none.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

i like to believe there is someone up there and that we go somewhere when we die, but i dont know for sure.....because i havent died lol
OH doesnt believe in anything, so i told him if i die before him and there is life after death, im going to haunt him to prove it. 
Its the only way lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> So you mean - in faith. Well, I have none.


No no, I mean in historical fact. The Christian church did not spring out of nowhere. It came out of Judaism. To the Jews, the idea of a crucified Messiah was utterly abhorrent, you see, hanging from a tree - and a cross counted as a tree - meant that the person was under God's curse. The idea of starting a religion based on a crucified man was as much of a non-starter to them as the idea of starting a religion based on someone who was a convicted child-killer would be to us today. There is no way they would have started such a religion. For gentiles, someone who had been crcified was the lowest sort of criminal and again there is no way you would start a religion based on such a person. The idea that they made the whole thing up is preposterous, it would not happen. Therefore you have to address the fact that they really truly did believe that Jesus had risen from the dead.

So, why do you think they believed that?

Liz


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

whats the difference between a christian and a catholic?


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

I am always polite to them as I feel sorry for them as they have to go door to door to spread the word as part of their faith and the response some of them get is toe curlingly rude, but I do not talk to them about faith or beliefs, last time they came i had a nice chat about recycling because I told him to keep his leaflets as I wouldn't read them and would only put them straight in the recycle bin, but manners cost nothing in my book.

As for religion I think it's nice that it's a comfort for some but all major wars have been down to religion in one way or another so how can there be a God/higher power that would allow the waton distruction of so many lives just to try to prove his existance :frown:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> whats the difference between a christian and a catholic?


Christianity divides into Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. Catholicism is a subset of Christianity, so to speak.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> No no, I mean in historical fact.


i.e., something that was written in a book. History books have been proved to be incorrect many many times.


lizward said:


> Therefore you have to address the fact that they really truly did believe that Jesus had risen from the dead.


I believe someone wrote it, and now you believe it. I don't.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GreyHare said:


> As for religion I think it's nice that it's a comfort for some but all major wars have been down to religion in one way or another so how can there be a God/higher power that would allow the waton distruction of so many lives just to try to prove his existance :frown:


Why do you think God should intervene in human wars? (Genuine question)

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> i.e., something that was written in a book. History books have been proved to be incorrect many many times. I believe someone wrote it, and now you believe it. I don't.


I am not talking about the Bible at the moment, I am talking about the existence of the Christian church. I assume you agree that the Christian church exists, and that it dates back to Jesus of Nazareth around AD30. Well, how do you think the Christian church started?

Liz


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

lizward said:


> Christianity divides into Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. Catholicism is a subset of Christianity, so to speak.
> 
> Liz


its all so confusing lol
all i know is i was christened. i was told the christmas story every year as a child, went to a church of england school and had every religion there possiable (im sure) and that everyone is equal to believe what they want to believe.

i know i was christened but i have no idea what i am lol


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> Thats not true,i know lots of JW and they know their religion inside out but will still go door to door in pairs.I will stand corrected but i think you will find its more for safety.


If I was going door-to-door and needed to be 'safe', I think I would take someone more 'substantial' than a young girl or a disabled boy in a wheelchair, the latter of which accompanied a JW to the door the last time one tried to visit here!



My opinion of the original purpose of religion is that it was invented to control the people, as can be borne out by the horrific punishments (hanging, burning etc) for not believing or believing in a different religion as practiced by catholic AND C of E in times gone by and currently still practiced by certain other faiths I won't mention in other countries.  It also stinks how wealthy the main religions are. I find that hypocritical. Like I said though, just my opinion.

You can still be a good person who cares about others and does no harm without having to believe in any god or faith.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

lizward said:


> Why do you think God should intervene in human wars? (Genuine question)
> 
> Liz


Well he can't as he doesn't exist, but for example if he did and was all loving and forgiving as we are lead to believe then why would he sit and watch as thousands of innocent people die try to prove or disprove his existance, surely the 'one true god' whether that be God,Allah,Jehovah or the fluffy easter bunny would be able to prove themselves to exist and bring peace to the world rather than cause all the death and destruction that war bring.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

vickie1985 said:


> its all so confusing lol
> all i know is i was christened. i was told the christmas story every year as a child, went to a church of england school and had every religion there possiable (im sure) and that everyone is equal to believe what they want to believe.
> 
> i know i was christened but i have no idea what i am lol


I would imagine if you were christened you are/were Church Of England as Catholics' baptise I believe.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I do not believe there is a higher being, i.e., God. I just don't believe it. So banging on about the history of the church is academic. Prove to me there is a God, and I will be happy.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

GreyHare said:


> I would imagine if you were christened you are/were Church Of England as Catholics' baptise I believe.


i wasnt christened at a catholic church, some of my nieces and nephews have been as their dad is a catholic.
i guess im just classed as C of E

my dad used to go to church all the time as a child, but he is 72 now. i think his family used to be very into their christianity many years ago


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## girlyhouse (Apr 16, 2010)

This is all really interseting and like a lot of folk i respect what peoples beliefs are even tho im not sure what i believe (if anything ) myself. What i will say is no matter what it is ,if something can be a comfort and a hope to someone its no bad thing. Im not a catholic but i did watch the pope mass on tv the other night and i thought what a wondeful feeling those believers must of felt at the time and also taking away with them.......I have been to sevices in churches and a chapel and my only gripe is never have animals been mentioned. The only place they have been spoken about in prayer was at the spiritualist church.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

GreyHare said:


> Well he can't as he doesn't exist, but for example if he did and was all loving and forgiving as we are lead to believe then why would he sit and watch as thousands of innocent people die try to prove or disprove his existance, surely the 'one true god' whether that be God,Allah,Jehovah or the fluffy easter bunny would be able to prove themselves to exist and bring peace to the world rather than cause all the death and destruction that war bring.


 You mean the Easter Bunny does not exist??? What about Santa Clause, fairies, gnomes, elves and Unicorns? Is belief in them not enough to prove that they too exist?  (Do you see where I'm coming from?  )


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I do not believe there is a higher being, i.e., God. I just don't believe it. So banging on about the history of the church is academic. Prove to me there is a God, and I will be happy.


i also think its to do with what you want to believe. i like to believe there is a god, but i cant say there is because ive not seen him.

my dad said to me when it came to finding out about our infertility

"maybe god has a bigger plan for us than we have for ourselfs"

i dont know if thats true, but it helped to get over things if that makes sense. but im still with you on the prove it, why cant he just come every now and then and say hi im real lol


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

For me religion is about faith - many people find comfort in having faith so I dont see anything wrong with that - whatever your religion its something that person believes in so I dont really like to ridicule anyone who believes- I do think though that there are still good and bad people who use religion for their own agendas but thats another debate - Im a christian but not a practising one but I do believe in God.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> You mean the Easter Bunny does not exist??? What about Santa Clause, fairies, gnomes, elves and Unicorns? Is belief in them not enough to prove that they too exist?  (Do you see where I'm coming from?  )


Sorry, hope it hasn't come as too much as a shock, maybe a lie down with a cup of tea and choccy bar will see you right


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> There may well be a safety element to it, especially these days when, if they are invited in (rare I'm sure!) they might be in danger of some false accusation. But surely there is a reason why only one does the talking?
> 
> Next time I see them, I'll ask.
> 
> Liz


They are spreading the word, as it is their religion, why on earth would they both talk at the same time.

My EX PIL are JW okay they a bit strange, (over cautious) but not dangerous just people looking for something to believe in, they are usually very nice respectable people, obviously not all of them......they have their meetings twice per week, they have their church on a Sunday (my son went from 1-9 years) and it hasn't done him any harm, he is a very well mannered child who knows right from wrong.

No one knows what happens when you die.

It would be nice to have something to believe in though.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> For me religion is about faith - many people find comfort in having faith so I dont see anything wrong with that - whatever your religion its something that person believes in so I dont really like to ridicule anyone who believes- I do think though that there are still good and bad people who use religion for their own agendas but thats another debate - Im a christian but not a practising one but I do believe in God.


you think how i do too then really. just for me as much as i want to believe there is God so many people put thoughts in my head where i think hummm thats a good point and it makes me wonder. i really am going to haunt my OH if i die before him if there is a life afterwards, i will prove it if its true lol


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> The proof you need is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
> 
> Liz


Fantastic....have you got the video?...send me a copy.

When ya dead ya dead...no more....kicked the bucket...passed on...a dead parrot.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

poohdog said:


> Fantastic....have you got the video?...send me a copy.
> 
> When ya dead ya dead...no more....kicked the bucket...passed on...a dead parrot.


whatever you believe in is the bottom line in all this isnt it.

i just hope that whatever people do believe in about death does happen for them, if i was sure i was coming back as an animal i would be pretty peed off if it didnt happen.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

poohdog said:


> Fantastic....have you got the video?...send me a copy.
> 
> When ya dead ya dead...no more....kicked the bucket...passed on...a dead parrot.


I have always been taugh different.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> you think how i do too then really. just for me as much as i want to believe there is God so many people put thoughts in my head where i think hummm thats a good point and it makes me wonder. i really am going to haunt my OH if i die before him if there is a life afterwards, i will prove it if its true lol


Thats it Vickie - everyone tells you what you should and shouldnt believe ....one story that sticks in my mind is when someone I know who is v religious friend was dying and they were with them when they past .....they said she had a beautiful look of peace on her face because she knew where she was going and wasnt afraid to die ...... I do believe there is something else out there when we die - I dont know what - but I dont think our short time on earth is the end.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

i dont believe in any god, Im an evolution kinda girl 

I dislike that fact only christian way of teaching is in schools, i'd rather my children know all the different religions rather then just have one thrown at them. Oh i should say they dont go to a c of e school either just a normal state primary


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> i also think its to do with what you want to believe.


I REALLY would like to believe. I just haven't been persuaded.



suzy93074 said:


> For me religion is about faith - many people find comfort in having faith so I dont see anything wrong with that - whatever your religion its something that person believes in so I dont really like to ridicule anyone who believes-


I totally agree. So whats wrong with me that god didn't see fit to give me this faith?


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I REALLY would like to believe. I just haven't been persuaded.
> 
> I totally agree. So whats wrong with me that god didn't see fit to give me this faith?


maybe you should tell yourself every day that there is a god and that he bakes scones every Thursday and on the Friday he has a tea party on cloud 938 which is right at the pink tower and straight on till Saturday.

you have to admit you will be the only person with that religion.

:thumbup: even i like the idea of this one.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Daynna said:


> i dont believe in any god, Im an evolution kinda girl


Lizward, what is your take on evolution?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

As a non-believer, I would never dream of telling anyone that they should not believe in God. Yet I have been told on many an occasion that there IS a God and that I should believe etc! Needless to say that 'advice' was politely ignored as I prefer to make my own mind up and I have.


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## girlyhouse (Apr 16, 2010)

vickie1985 said:


> maybe you should tell yourself every day that there is a god and that he bakes scones every Thursday and on the Friday he has a tea party on cloud 938 which is right at the pink tower and straight on till Saturday.
> 
> you have to admit you will be the only person with that religion.
> 
> :thumbup: even i like the idea of this one.


oh yes im in on this one too . any ideas of names for this ? lol x


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

girlyhouse said:


> oh yes im in on this one too . any ideas of names for this ? lol x


him?? im sure its a woman and shes called Victoria 

it was my mistake putting him on the other post


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

oh and the religion is Vicisum


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm Methodist, though when I go to church I go to the local large Church of England.

I haven't answered the door to a JW in 11 years, then again I only answer the door to the postman anyway. I have no problem with them coming round as long as they go when asked. The people that annoy me are the Christians who don't stop when people ask. I've known them both at church and my old Christian Union. You aren't going to convert people by annoying them.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

the witnesses were invented by a Yank in the late 1800s...He reckoned there were only a hundred odd thousand would be allowed into heaven...all witnesses of course.
This number was reached yonks ago,so why present members of his cult believe the stuff they're taught is beyond me.

They of course think the earth was created less than 5,000 years back so show 'em a lump of coal and they don't believe it's older.

Next time you chat to one, ask 'em how Noah got the kangaroos to swim over from Oz to the Middle East to get on his boat.Their latest 'How to answer awkward questions' book says the Roos have evolved in the last 5,000 years from African animals....Yeah ..right!

If you want to be a member ...be prepared to hand over all your cash...and not to speak to unbelievers...even if they are your close family...a favourite rule with all American cults.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

poohdog said:


> the witnesses were invented by a Yank in the late 1800s...He reckoned there were only a hundred odd thousand would be allowed into heaven...all witnesses of course.
> This number was reached yonks ago,so why present members of his cult believe the stuff they're taught is beyond me.
> 
> They of course think the earth was created less than 5,000 years back so show 'em a lump of coal and they don't believe it's older.
> ...


I'm not about all the handing over of your cash etc but my sister in law has JW in her family and they all still meet up at least twice a year (they live ooop north and her down south) I'm sure they would meet more often if they were closer.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I REALLY would like to believe. I just haven't been persuaded.
> 
> I totally agree. So whats wrong with me that god didn't see fit to give me this faith?


Well I dont think "god " can you give u the faith - its wether you choose to have the belief and faith - and open your heart to that - from what I have seen and learnt knowing religious people they say god is there for everyone - its wether YOU choose him not if he chooses you


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Well I dont think "god " can you give u the faith - its wether you choose to have the belief and faith - and open your heart to that - from what I have seen and learnt knowing religious people they say god is there for everyone - its wether YOU choose him not if he chooses you


Yep, there's that faith thing again...


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Yep, there's that faith thing again...


Yep its hard to understand I know cos I dont have as much faith as some of the christians I know ( my OH's family) - they are really really devout and get huge comfort from going to church and reading the bible etc - they put their whole life in gods hands so to speak - something I dont do - I do believe in god but I dont let it take over my whole life - its all very complex :arf: for those that dont believe I think thats fine too - each to their own really - its whatever works for you in your life that matters :thumbup:


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## Carla-Jade (Jul 28, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Well I dont think "god " can you give u the faith - its wether you choose to have the belief and faith - and open your heart to that - from what I have seen and learnt knowing religious people they say god is there for everyone - its wether YOU choose him not if he chooses you


spot on, well said. i am religious however it does annoy me to hear other christians shoving it down other peoples throats. i wont talk about my beleifs unless im asked- it to me is a personal choice but i can see why so many people feel forced if people talk at them so often. each to their own

ps, there totally is a santa & fairys!!!


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Carla-Jade said:


> ps, there totally is a santa & fairys!!!


Phew!!! :thumbup:


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> If I was going door-to-door and needed to be 'safe', I think I would take someone more 'substantial' than a young girl or a disabled boy in a wheelchair, the latter of which accompanied a JW to the door the last time one tried to visit here!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel the same way. I'm personally an atheist. Anything is possible, but I'm doubtful about the existence of any sort of deity. I think they are more of a human invention than anything else. I don't believe ghosts, spirits, etc. exist either.

On the other hand, I would never tell someone else what they should believe. I never say anything to the extremely religious people I meet around here. It is rude to knock on someone's door just to tell them about your religion/beliefs.


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## gypsybitch (Aug 6, 2010)

i used to say to them that god was a drug dealer to make water into wine, they say nooo he's not so id say well then the bible lies

or say jesus is a bastard child he was born out of wedlock 

or

the one that sat at the top of the mountain and seen something in fire and carried down a tablet of commandments he was on acid, of speed because how do you mean to tell me he survived for so long without food or water and he was on acid yeah he seeing things and with no food how did he have the strength to bring the 10 commandments down you all lie and contradict yourself so the best bet for me is to believe in myself that way i dont have to desypher lies and i wont be let down bye now have a good day lol

then the door gets shut in thier face wether they are stood there or not lol

or even better do this open the door say what do you want they say oh god this that an the other shout mummmmmmmm the god squads here they want you, say to them hold on a min shut the door and leave them there hahaha a couple of them stood there for 30 mins once untill i was going out putting my coat on then i smiled at them lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> My opinion of the original purpose of religion is that it was invented to control the people, as can be borne out by the horrific punishments (hanging, burning etc) for not believing or believing in a different religion as practiced by catholic AND C of E in times gone by and currently still practiced by certain other faiths I won't mention in other countries.


What people tend to forget - if indeed they ever knew in the first place - is that until very recently in the history of the world, the concept of freedom of religion simply did not exist. Nations had religions, so to speak. If you had a different religion from your king, so the thinking went, you might well decide to bump him off and install a king of your own religion instead. Exceptions were made for the Jews relatively early on, but otherwise, one nation had one religion. It seems incomprehensible to us but it is a matter of the way they thought historically rather than anything else (and for the most recent examples of it, you need to look to the atheist states of the Soviet Union).

Liz


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

I find hearing about different religions interesting, I don't like having others beliefs rammed down my throat when I answer the door though. 

The JW caused controversy in our local news a few years ago, a follower died after giving birth, she refused a blood transfusion because of her faith, doctors were helpless as their job is to preserve life. Just made me so sad to think of how selfish that seemed, to me anyway, to put doctors into that awful position, to knowingly make your own child motherless, I just don't understand how anyone can put their beliefs first over their own child? Not when it boils down to a life or death situation, no matter how I feel about religion I just can't advocate that.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GreyHare said:


> Well he can't as he doesn't exist, but for example if he did and was all loving and forgiving as we are lead to believe then why would he sit and watch as thousands of innocent people die try to prove or disprove his existance, surely the 'one true god' whether that be God,Allah,Jehovah or the fluffy easter bunny would be able to prove themselves to exist and bring peace to the world rather than cause all the death and destruction that war bring.


Ok, thank you for the answer.

1. If you would want God to intervene to stop bad things, would you also want him to intervene to stop bad things YOU do - bearing in mind that your idea of what is bad might not be the same as his?

2. These wars were never about people trying to prove or disprove his existence, for that you would need a war between practising Christians (or Muslims or Jews or Hindus etc) and militant atheists. As far as I know - I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong - no war that has been fought with atheists on one side has been anything remotely connected with religion. The most notorious example of religious wars, the crusades, was about the conquering of territory, just like all other wars.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I do not believe there is a higher being, i.e., God. I just don't believe it. So banging on about the history of the church is academic. Prove to me there is a God, and I will be happy.


Well then, you have opted out of the debate and proved yourself not to be serious in your demand for proof. Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. I have nothing else to offer in support of Christianity. I need nothing else.

As for the existence of God, that one is easy. God does not believe in atheists.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

girlyhouse said:


> .I have been to sevices in churches and a chapel and my only gripe is never have animals been mentioned. The only place they have been spoken about in prayer was at the spiritualist church.


My Pastor has prayed for my cats in the prayer meeting before, but then she loves cats too  I often mention cats when I am preaching, they make great illustrations for children's talks.

Liz


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## Carla-Jade (Jul 28, 2010)

MissShelley said:


> I find hearing about different religions interesting, I don't like having others beliefs rammed down my throat when I answer the door though.
> 
> The JW caused controversy in our local news a few years ago, a follower died after giving birth, she refused a blood transfusion because of her faith, doctors were helpless as their job is to preserve life. Just made me so sad to think of how selfish that seemed, to me anyway, to put doctors into that awful position, to knowingly make your own child motherless, I just don't understand how anyone can put their beliefs first over their own child? Not when it boils down to a life or death situation, no matter how I feel about religion I just can't advocate that.


i do find thsi awfully difficult to deal with too, a family member is a JW & she would not allow her sick baby to have a blood transfusion to save his life. surpirse surprise he died  its very sad that i have that 'story' to tell people it is upsetting that their little boy could be a grown up adult now if they had just allowed the doctors to do what was necessary


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## Carla-Jade (Jul 28, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Phew!!! :thumbup:


i have a fairy door that sits by my skirting baord so if a fairy wants to come in they have their own door. im not mad, its a real little trinket i bought


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> God does not believe in atheists.
> 
> Liz


How do you know? Have you met him and asked him?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> Fantastic....have you got the video?...send me a copy.


It's funny you should say that because, in fact, the very fact that no-one presented any claim to have seen the actual event is one of the points in favour of the whole thing not being made up. The "hero stories" of that period would have included someone actually seeing the event - and those who did see it recognising the hero.

But as to the answer, no, and I don't have a video of the Roman conquest of Britian either.

Liz


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Carla-Jade said:


> i have a fairy door that sits by my skirting baord so if a fairy wants to come in they have their own door. im not mad, its a real little trinket i bought


I have a fairy door in my garden, attached to a tree stump. They live there you know. :yesnod:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Daynna said:


> I dislike that fact only christian way of teaching is in schools, i'd rather my children know all the different religions rather then just have one thrown at them. Oh i should say they dont go to a c of e school either just a normal state primary


?? Are you in the UK??

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> So whats wrong with me that god didn't see fit to give me this faith?


Did you want Him to? (serious question)

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Lizward, what is your take on evolution?


Well I have a BSc in Biology.

What's your take on it and why?

liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> the witnesses were invented by a Yank in the late 1800s...He reckoned there were only a hundred odd thousand would be allowed into heaven...all witnesses of course.
> This number was reached yonks ago,so why present members of his cult believe the stuff they're taught is beyond me.


You are missing the fact that these days they have what is called the "earthly hope" - hope of a life on an Eden-like earth. That has a great appeal and that is why people keep joining them.



> If you want to be a member ...be prepared to hand over all your cash...and not to speak to unbelievers...even if they are your close family...a favourite rule with all American cults.


From what I have heard, tithing is optional for JWs, and the only time you are not to speak to your family is if one of them has been shunned.

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> They are spreading the word, as it is their religion, why on earth would they both talk at the same time.
> 
> My EX PIL are JW okay they a bit strange, (over cautious) but not dangerous just people looking for something to believe in, they are usually very nice respectable people, obviously not all of them......they have their meetings twice per week, they have their church on a Sunday (my son went from 1-9 years) and it hasn't done him any harm, he is a very well mannered child who knows right from wrong.
> 
> ...


I have to say, JW have the highest standards imo,and believe me i know quite a few.
I find this subject very strange,and wonder had we been talking muslims,would this thread still be open?


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

i think anyone is welcome to believe any religion they like, as long as it brings them happiness and comfort, as well as a firm belief in what will happen after death, which a lot of people find to be very helpful.

However, I don't believe that anyone from any religion should try to 'convert' others. If they wanted to believe in it, they would.

I believe in an Afterlife but not particularly a God. Although i'd like to think he does exist, but I need much firmer proof before I will believe or practise any religion.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DogLover1981 said:


> It is rude to knock on someone's door just to tell them about your religion/beliefs.


Suppose your house was burning and you were asleep and had no smoke alarms, and you happened to have a neighbour who was awake because he was on a night shift. Would he be rude if he hammered on your door and shouted trhough your letterbox and yelled at you to get out? Or even if he got a ladder and climbed up to your bedroom window and banged hard on that?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MissShelley said:


> The JW caused controversy in our local news a few years ago, a follower died after giving birth, she refused a blood transfusion because of her faith, doctors were helpless as their job is to preserve life. Just made me so sad to think of how selfish that seemed, to me anyway, to put doctors into that awful position, to knowingly make your own child motherless, I just don't understand how anyone can put their beliefs first over their own child? Not when it boils down to a life or death situation, no matter how I feel about religion I just can't advocate that.


I find it very easy to understand, however the JWs are in fact wrong on this as on so many other things which are much more serious.

Liz


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Lizward, what is your take on evolution?


id be really interested in the reply to this question, unbelievably 65% of people in the USA dont believe in evolution  they believe God created us just as we are today.

back on topic now one of my best friends when i was young was a JW and i use to go to the Kingdom hall with her and her Mum and sisters, i always felt sorry for them at Christmas and birthdays when they couldnt celebrate and even in school in assembly my friend had to wait outside the hall until it had finished, some kids were unkind and call her and her joby, now theyre all grown up non of them are in that faith anymore.

her Mum recently found out where i lived and came to my door with a couple of other JW's to recruite me i felt really bad but explained that religeon of anykind just isnt for me


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> Suppose your house was burning and you were asleep and had no smoke alarms, and you happened to have a neighbour who was awake because he was on a night shift. Would he be rude if he hammered on your door and shouted trhough your letterbox and yelled at you to get out? Or even if he got a ladder and climbed up to your bedroom window and banged hard on that?
> 
> Liz


What on EARTH has alerting someone to danger got to do with attempting to convert them to your way of believing?  

If I wanted religion, I know where the churches are. I do not need anyone to tell me what I should or shouldn't be believing.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> What on EARTH has alerting someone to danger got to do with attempting to convert them to your way of believing?


Do you honestly not understand (if you don't, I will be happy to explain) or are you just making a rhetorical comment?

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well then, you have opted out of the debate and proved yourself not to be serious in your demand for proof. Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. I have nothing else to offer in support of Christianity. I need nothing else.
> 
> As for the existence of God, that one is easy. God does not believe in atheists.
> 
> Liz


God does not believe in Athists?
How arrogant of you to make that statement...how do you know that?
Maybe (ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE) you should have been around to help jesus when he helped all the people that didnt believe in him you could have saved him a lot of time


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

lizward said:


> Do you honestly not understand (if you don't, I will be happy to explain) or are you just making a rhetorical comment?
> 
> Liz


I actually agree with Caroline on that... don't see how you can possibly compare a life or death situation with someone knocking on your door and shoving their religion down your throat.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Verbatim said:


> I actually agree with Caroline on that... don't see how you can possibly compare a life or death situation with someone knocking on your door and shoving their religion down your throat.


i would imagine that lizward is trying to make the point that both are trying to help in their eyes..i may be wrong though.... i often was at school....lol

juliex


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lizward said:


> Yes well, that was a reply somewhat lacking in historical substance, if you don't mind me saying so! (rather good for getting rid of JWs though!)
> 
> liz


That was the idea nothing else, but you should have seen his face.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Verbatim said:


> I actually agree with Caroline on that... don't see how you can possibly compare a life or death situation with someone knocking on your door and shoving their religion down your throat.


Well if there are two of you who apparently don't understand it (is Christian knowledge really so lacking in this country now?) I will explain.

Standard Christian teaching is that all those who die outside of Christ - ie. able to believe in Him but not actually doing so at the point when they die - spend eternity in hell. Now, if you really truly believe that someone is heading for eternity in hell (in fact, the JWs don't believe this, they just believe you don't get resurrected), you will want to warn them that they are heading there, and that they will in fact go there unless they turn around. Just the same as if they were heading at speed towards a bridge you knew to be broken, you would wave very hard at the car to try to get them to stop.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Maybe (ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE) you should have been around to help jesus when he helped all the people that didnt believe in him


Which incidents are you thinking of?

Liz


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

lizward said:


> Suppose your house was burning and you were asleep and had no smoke alarms, and you happened to have a neighbour who was awake because he was on a night shift. Would he be rude if he hammered on your door and shouted trhough your letterbox and yelled at you to get out? Or even if he got a ladder and climbed up to your bedroom window and banged hard on that?
> 
> Liz


At that point, I honestly don't feel it would be right for me to tell you what to believe.

However, if someone is rude to me, they should expect me to be rude to them. Also, trespassing is a criminal offense (at least here it is).


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Which incidents are you thinking of?
> 
> Liz


There are many incidents of people not believing in jesus or god at the time jesus(was supposedly around) im sure as a christian i dont need to give you specific examples?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well then, you have opted out of the debate and proved yourself not to be serious in your demand for proof. Christianity stands or falls on the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. I have nothing else to offer in support of Christianity. I need nothing else.
> 
> As for the existence of God, that one is easy. God does not believe in atheists.


OK so I have to believe in a book. There are many history books I do not believe. History is always written by the winners, and has its own slant on things.



lizward said:


> Well I have a BSc in Biology.
> 
> What's your take on it and why?
> 
> liz


I asked you first.


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

lizward said:


> I find it very easy to understand, however the JWs are in fact wrong on this as on so many other things which are much more serious.
> 
> Liz


And that Liz is where the whole religion thing is so dangerous...not from people like me who scoff at the fairy tales and total lack of proof...
But those who use words like IN FACT...where there are no facts except in their own minds.
With regard to the Roman Invasion of Britain...we *know* this happened through archeological proof,not just the written word...unlike most of the fables in the bible.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well if there are two of you who apparently don't understand it (is Christian knowledge really so lacking in this country now?) I will explain.
> 
> Standard Christian teaching is that all those who die outside of Christ - ie. able to believe in Him but not actually doing so at the point when they die - spend eternity in hell. Now, if you really truly believe that someone is heading for eternity in hell (in fact, the JWs don't believe this, they just believe you don't get resurrected), you will want to warn them that they are heading there, and that they will in fact go there unless they turn around. Just the same as if they were heading at speed towards a bridge you knew to be broken, you would wave very hard at the car to try to get them to stop.
> 
> Liz


but it isn't a physical situation such as being in a burning house would be. I think it was just perhaps a bad analogy.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> There are many incidents of people not believing in jesus or god at the time jesus(was supposedly around) im sure as a christian i dont need to give you specific examples?


You were talking about Jesus helping those who did not believe in Him. I can think of no examples of that, in fact I don't see how there could have been any such examples. Those who came to him for healing came because they believed in him or were brought (with their consent) by those who did.

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well if there are two of you who apparently don't understand it (is Christian knowledge really so lacking in this country now?) I will explain.
> 
> Standard Christian teaching is that all those who die outside of Christ - ie. able to believe in Him but not actually doing so at the point when they die - spend eternity in hell. Now, if you really truly believe that someone is heading for eternity in hell (in fact, the JWs don't believe this, they just believe you don't get resurrected), you will want to warn them that they are heading there, and that they will in fact go there unless they turn around. Just the same as if they were heading at speed towards a bridge you knew to be broken, you would wave very hard at the car to try to get them to stop.
> 
> Liz


You have made a good point there actually liz...you can SEE a bridge is broken though cant you?
As a beliver who has faith that is easy for you to compare but for the non believers it is not a good example.

I respect all faiths what i dont like is people saying if you dont believe this or you dont believe that then you will not go to heaven etc etc...
God apparently is a very forgiving person so what right has any religion to say otherwise?
Jesus certainly would not have said those words even if he did exist...in fact i do strongly believe a man named jesus did exist just not quoet in the same way as you do.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DogLover1981 said:


> At that point, I honestly don't feel it would be right for me to tell you what to believe.


What, even if happened to believe I was safe in bed and you knew my house was burning?

I'm glad you're not my neighbour!

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> You were talking about Jesus helping those who did not believe in Him. I can think of no examples of that, in fact I don't see how there could have been any such examples. Those who came to him for healing came because they believed in him or were brought (with their consent) by those who did.
> 
> Liz


Hmmm but did they believe he was the son of god & a miracle worker...or were they just so desperate to have their family healed?
My friend suffered from very bad back pain for many years ...crippling in fact she couldnt work had no social life...had been under the care of many consultants & doctors for years...then she heard of this woman who did healing,off she went & after a few visits she has never looked back...dosent make the healer god tho does it?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Verbatim said:


> but it isn't a physical situation such as being in a burning house would be. I think it was just perhaps a bad analogy.


The only difference is that it is not immediate (unless anyone here dies tonight, I hope not!), that's all. It is just as real.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Did you want Him to? (serious question)


I did, and I took steps to try to believe in him. I have been to many Christian meetings and prayed with people who absolutely believed. I have tried, honestly. And people have tried for me also. During this time we asked for relief for the pain I was in. None came, I never felt the Holy Spirit, nothing. Maybe I'm a lost cause.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Hmmm but did they believe he was the son of god & a miracle worker...or were they just so desperate to have their family healed?
> My friend suffered from very bad back pain for many years ...crippling in fact she couldnt work had no social life...had been under the care of many consultants & doctors for years...then she heard of this woman who did healing,off she went & after a few visits she has never looked back...dosent make the healer god tho does it?


Well, they came to him. Those who actively did not believe in him, hated him.

As for the identity of the healer, that is off the subject completely. You stated that Jesus helped those who did not believe in him. You have no evidence on which to base such a claim.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I did, and I took steps to try to believe in him. I have been to many Christian meetings and prayed with people who absolutely believed. I have tried, honestly. And people have tried for me also. During this time we asked for relief for the pain I was in. None came, I never felt the Holy Spirit, nothing. Maybe I'm a lost cause.


Well who knows, maybe this thread is going to answer your prayers. God does things like that you know! I will say this though. Whatever pain you might have been in, your greatest need is for salvation. Unless you are prepared to address that need first, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> OK so I have to believe in a book. There are many history books I do not believe. History is always written by the winners, and has its own slant on things.


Once again, I am not asking you to believe a book - not yet. I am asking you to consider the reason for the existence of the Christian church. Let's start there. Come on, humour me 

As for evolution, it's rather a red herring. What does it do? It just puts the question further back, that's all. I know fine Christians on both sides of that debate.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Whatever pain you might have been in, your greatest need is for salvation. Unless you are prepared to address that need first, you are barking up the wrong tree.


Yes I was told that - I felt like it was my fault, I tried to believe, but couldn't. Couldn't HE have given me a helping hand in my hour of need? Its a load of bunkum.

And you never did say what your take on evolution is.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, they came to him. Those who actively did not believe in him, hated him.
> 
> As for the identity of the healer, that is off the subject completely. You stated that Jesus helped those who did not believe in him. You have no evidence on which to base such a claim.
> 
> Liz


I can see why you would make that statement as you only believe what you believe.
If my child or a family member was in pain or dying i would have taken him to this so called jesus too?

Its true i have no evidence to say that ...just as you dont have any evidence either...you have what a book tell you,what people around you tell you.
It is not off subject at all you made the claim that people went to jesus i mentioned a friend went to a healer & recieved benefits as did those people who went to visit jesus...whats the difference?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> With regard to the Roman Invasion of Britain...we *know* this happened through archeological proof,not just the written word...unlike most of the fables in the bible.


You've investigated the Bible thoroughly, then?

It's funny how people are quite happy to believe in the existence of Julius Caesar but not Jesus Christ. There is much more evidence for the existence of the latter!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> I can see why you would make that statement as you only believe what you believe.
> If my child or a family member was in pain or dying i would have taken him to this so called jesus too?


No doubt you would, people will do things when they are desperate that they would not normally do. It is quite true that the common mass of people were hailing him as king one day and then screaming for his death a few days later. Nevertheless, I don't see Jesus in the Gospels going round actively looking for people who don't believe in Him, do you? He did not heal everyone. That is difficult for us to cope with because we think we would have done, but he didn't. He healed only one man of the many at the pool of Bethesda. He left enough people unhealed for there to be many who later followed Peter to try to get his shadow to fall on them so they might be healed. He did heal all who actually came to him, he didn't go seeking out those who did not.

As for "so called Jesus" - what else do you think his name was? I mean, apart from Yeshua.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Yes I was told that - I felt like it was my fault, I tried to believe, but couldn't. Couldn't HE have given me a helping hand in my hour of need? Its a load of bunkum.
> 
> And you never did say what your take on evolution is.


I suggest you stop trying to believe and, instead, try crying out to God for mercy. Now, I will say in case I am misunderstood, I don't mean that you are a worse person than anyone else (you might be better that most, for all I know) and I don't mean that you are being punished for your sins. I mean only that you are a sinner in need of the mercy of God, as is every human being who ever lived - except one.

I am a creationist. I do not intend to get sidetracked too much on that one. It is of secondary importance only. I was a Christian before I became a creationist.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> You have made a good point there actually liz...you can SEE a bridge is broken though cant you?


Exactly,you have made my point well, thank you 



> God apparently is a very forgiving person so what right has any religion to say otherwise?


God is indeed very forgiving - of all who turn to him in repentance and faith. God does not forgive those who do not repent.



> Jesus certainly would not have said those words even if he did exist.


Sorry, you lost me, which words?

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> No doubt you would, people will do things when they are desperate that they would not normally do. It is quite true that the common mass of people were hailing him as king one day and then screaming for his death a few days later. Nevertheless, I don't see Jesus in the Gospels going round actively looking for people who don't believe in Him, do you? He did not heal everyone. That is difficult for us to cope with because we think we would have done, but he didn't. He healed only one man of the many at the pool of Bethesda. He left enough people unhealed for there to be many who later followed Peter to try to get his shadow to fall on them so they might be healed. He did heal all who actually came to him, he didn't go seeking out those who did not.
> 
> As for "so called Jesus" - what else do you think his name was? I mean, apart from Yeshua.
> 
> Liz


That is exactly my point liz..people do do things when they are desperate..hence my comment about my friend..so i ask you jesus healed people & so has my friend healer what is the difference?
If you read my post properly i did say i do believe a man whom people thought was gods son was indeed called jesus...i believe he did exist just not in the same way as you


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> That is exactly my point liz..people do do things when they are desperate..hence my comment about my friend..so i ask you jesus healed people & so has my friend healer what is the difference?


The difference is that I presume your friend's healer has not claimed to be the Son of God, has not been crucified and has not risen from the dead.



> If you read my post properly i did say i do believe a man whom people thought was gods son was indeed called jesus...i believe he did exist just not in the same way as you


You used the term "so called Jesus". His name was Jesus. It was Jesus whatever you want to think of who he was, his name remains the same.

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Exactly,you have made my point well, thank you
> 
> God is indeed very forgiving - of all who turn to him in repentance and faith. God does not forgive those who do not repent.
> 
> ...


What point?
People can see a bridge is broken.You can see if a bridge is broken with your own eyes...you have never seen god before you have you?


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> The difference is that I presume your friend's healer has not claimed to be the Son of God, has not been crucified and has not risen from the dead.
> 
> You used the term "so called Jesus". His name was Jesus. It was Jesus whatever you want to think of who he was, his name remains the same.
> 
> Liz


Of course not,that would be silly people would think she was crazy!
Hence i believe why jesus was crucified,not because he was the son of god or anything like that but because this man was way ahead of his time
Have you ever seen derren brown?
Imagine he had lived then,he would have been crucified as well


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

lizward, I was referring to comparison you were trying to make, and not the actual example you made. Basically that proselytizing is a life or death scenario, which I disagree.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> What point?
> People can see a bridge is broken.You can see if a bridge is broken with your own eyes...you have never seen god before you have you?


No-one has seen God. I have complete faith in His word. If His word tells me that those who die outside of Christ are going to hell, that is what I believe. I don't need anything else to tell me.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Of course not,that would be silly people would think she was crazy!


Exactly. No-one makes the claim to be God unless they are either crazy, or really evil and with a lot of power to control people, or it happens to be true.



> Hence i believe why jesus was crucified,not because he was the son of god or anything like that but because this man was way ahead of his time


The reason given in the Gospels - which are eye witness accounts - is that he was crucified because he claimed to be God. There had been prophets in Israel's past who healed people, and later the apostles healed people. That was not the issue!



> Have you ever seen derren brown?
> Imagine he had lived then,he would have been crucified as well


No, who is he?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

DogLover1981 said:


> lizward, I was referring to comparison you were trying to make, and not the actual example you made. Basically that proselytizing is a life or death scenario, which I disagree.


Well obviously you disagree, I would expect you to  The issue, surely, is not whether you agree or not, but whether those "proselytizing" as you call it believe it to be a life or death situation or not.

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> No-one has seen God. I have complete faith in His word. If His word tells me that those who die outside of Christ are going to hell, that is what I believe. I don't need anything else to tell me.
> 
> Liz


Exactly! So using the example you made earlier was wrong.
That is fine if that is what you believe.
personally i believe there is no such thing as hell...religions have made that up to scare the heck out of people.
I so hope you wont be dissapointed at the end...not that you will be able to tell the non belivers anyway


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> No-one has seen God. I have complete faith in His word. If His word tells me that those who die outside of Christ are going to hell, that is what I believe. I don't need anything else to tell me.
> 
> Liz


And neither do those of us who choose NOT to believe. Now please excuse me, I am packing my suitcase - it's obviously going to be hot where I am heading (because I am going there because I am an individual and I do not believe)! :devil:


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> It's funny how people are quite happy to believe in the existence of Julius Caesar but not Jesus Christ. There is much more evidence for the existence of the latter!


Where, apart from in the Bible, is the historical evidence of Jesus Christ?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I think it much be nice to have something to believe in. I am an aethiest but find the church very comforting place to be at sad times.

I don' think we can put down anyones beliefs. 

Noone knows.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> :lol::lol: sorry
> 
> A few years ago we had some bible basher come to our door, the first thing he said was something like "Do you know who the most famous man, who ever lived is" yes I said "Elvis Presley". He just looked at me, as I said thank and closed the door. (I did say closed and not slammed)


Had a similar thing...except they asked me what i would do if the world had been created orange??? :confused1:. I said i would wear sunglasses, and closed the door...


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> I am asking you to consider the reason for the existence of the Christian church. Let's start there. Come on, humour me


I consider the reason to be that there quite possibly could have been a very charismatic man called Jesus, and that he talked a lot of sense, so people followed him. I do not believe in all the miracles and stuff in the Bible. The Qur'an is another book - why not believe that one? Because of where you were born? If you had been born here you would most definitely believe in Islam.


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

Ok, heres a question, my nephew has a terminal illness, he is 9 years old, he has never sinned, he is a loving and caring child. Why has god specifically decided to take him from this world. Why are there bad people in this world who have been given transplants to let them live a full life. Was it god who said to the doctor, this man or woman has sinned, but you must let him live. I dont think so, it was man who made that decision, not god. if it was god who put those thoughts into man, then god himself must be truely evil, why else would he take the innocent, please dont give the, they will be happier in heaven, because if thats the case why would he have them be born in the 1st place.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I accept that others choose to believe. It is their right and if it makes them happy and brings them comfort then I am happy for them. It is just a shame that some of them cannot happily accept and understand my decision not to.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> No-one has seen God. I have complete faith in His word. If His word tells me that those who die outside of Christ are going to hell, that is what I believe. I don't need anything else to tell me.


When did he tell you that? Or did you read it in a book......?


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> When did he tell you that? Or did you read it in a book......?


Exactly...& bear in mind that the written word has been re-written many times...By man!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

There was a post earlier that said wars weren't fought because of religion. What about northern and southern ireland?? Didn't the pope order Queen Elizabeth 1 killed because she was a heretic, and sent the spanish armada to try to do so? Why were Christians fed to lions? Come on, there are loads of deaths that have been attributed to religion and religion only.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Yes, actually......I have had a completely crap life and I was very very good when I was younger, so I don't know how his system works.

My brother is lovely and his g/f died of massive brain clot ? 23 years old.

BUT 

I like to think of my grandad looking in on me now and again, I was very close to him. He died 18 years ago.

I don't understand death at all and quite literally bury my head in the sand and bottle somewhere. 

I don't understand life to be honest.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Exactly! So using the example you made earlier was wrong.
> That is fine if that is what you believe.
> personally i believe there is no such thing as hell...religions have made that up to scare the heck out of people.
> I so hope you wont be dissapointed at the end...not that you will be able to tell the non belivers anyway


Well OK, shall we refine the illustration then? You are in a car heading towards a bridge that is broken, a bridge over a ravine with a sheer drop of goodness knows how far. There is a huge warning sign stating that the bridge is broken but vandals have removed the cones that would block the bridge off. You ignore the sign and carry on driving towards the bridge at 60mph. Someone sees you and stands as near to the roadside as he dares, waving his arms and trying to make you see the warning sign. You stop because he is waving his arms and ask what is wrong. He asks if you have missed the sign. You tell him you don't trust the people who put that there, because none of your friends think that those people are reliable, then you start on your way again and quickly accelarate to 60mph ...

Better? 

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well OK, shall we refine the illustration then? You are in a car heading towards a bridge that is broken, a bridge over a ravine with a sheer drop of goodness knows how far. There is a huge warning sign stating that the bridge is broken but vandals have removed the cones that would block the bridge off. You ignore the sign and carry on driving towards the bridge at 60mph. Someone sees you and stands as near to the roadside as he dares, waving his arms and trying to make you see the warning sign. You stop because he is waving his arms and ask what is wrong. He asks if you have msised the sign. You tell him you don't trust the people who put that there are you are in a hurry, then you start on your way again and quickly accelarate to 60mph ...
> 
> Better?
> 
> Liz


Certainly food for thought when you put it like that. What religion are you Liz ? I was dragged up in a prodestant church.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well OK, shall we refine the illustration then? You are in a car heading towards a bridge that is broken, a bridge over a ravine with a sheer drop of goodness knows how far. There is a huge warning sign stating that the bridge is broken but vandals have removed the cones that would block the bridge off. You ignore the sign and carry on driving towards the bridge at 60mph. Someone sees you and stands as near to the roadside as he dares, waving his arms and trying to make you see the warning sign. You stop because he is waving his arms and ask what is wrong. He asks if you have msised the sign. You tell him you don't trust the people who put that there are you are in a hurry, then you start on your way again and quickly accelarate to 60mph ...
> 
> Better?
> 
> Liz


No no better...you are assuming i would ignore the warning sign :confused1:
You are also assumimg i would ignore the man in front of me waving his arms..that i can clearly see...you argument still dosent stand


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I am a confirmed heathen :devil:. Never christened, never been to church (nope, not even for a wedding or funeral) I did A level RE, though purely academically not as any sort of vocation. 

Hell is where it's at man, all the sexy muthawhat's are there :thumbup:


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

toria said:


> No no better...you are assuming i would ignore the warning sign :confused1:
> You are also assumimg i would ignore the man in front of me waving his arms..that i can clearly see...you argument still dosent stand


Yes, you wouldn't ignore that would you. I wouldn't.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Where, apart from in the Bible, is the historical evidence of Jesus Christ?


In the existence of the Christian church - we are going round in circles. A couple of quotes though:

Tacitus, AD115, says of the Christians "They got their name from Christ, who was executed by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius."

Josephus writing in the early 90s (that's 90 AD not 1990!) says something like this (there's a Christian interpolation in the middle, no-one believes that. This is what scholars think he actually wrote, Josephus was a Jew not a Christian)

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonders. He drew many after him. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Milly22 said:


> Certainly food for thought when you put it like that. What religion are you Liz ? I was dragged up in a prodestant church.


I was brought up Anglican. These days, I am a Baptist Lay Preacher. In short, I am on the conservative side of Evangelical.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I consider the reason to be that there quite possibly could have been a very charismatic man called Jesus, and that he talked a lot of sense, so people followed him. I do not believe in all the miracles and stuff in the Bible. The Qur'an is another book - why not believe that one? Because of where you were born? If you had been born here you would most definitely believe in Islam.


Because there are errors in the Quran - one quick example, Mohammed thought that the Trinity in Christian doctrine means the father the Son and the Virgin Mary. Because the Quran claims that Jesus was not crucified - a ludicrous assertion. And most of all, because Mohammed did not die on a cross for my sins and then rise from the dead.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

bullet said:


> Ok, heres a question, my nephew has a terminal illness, he is 9 years old, he has never sinned, he is a loving and caring child. Why has god specifically decided to take him from this world. Why are there bad people in this world who have been given transplants to let them live a full life. Was it god who said to the doctor, this man or woman has sinned, but you must let him live. I dont think so, it was man who made that decision, not god. if it was god who put those thoughts into man, then god himself must be truely evil, why else would he take the innocent, please dont give the, they will be happier in heaven, because if thats the case why would he have them be born in the 1st place.


I am sorry to hear about your nephew. Is he on the transplant list then?

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am sorry to hear about your nephew. Is he on the transplant list then?
> 
> Liz


You do not have a answer?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Exactly...& bear in mind that the written word has been re-written many times...By man!


You might like to look into the history of how we got the Bible before saying much more in that vein. You would probably be very surprised at the textual evidence we have. Scholars have very little disagreement about what the text actually is, and none of any doctrinal significance.

Liz


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

But there is growing evidence to suggest that he didnt actually die on the cross, and therefore was never ressurected


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> You do not have a answer?


In Pastoral work you learn very quickly that questions like this are not asking for academic answers. A child and his family are suffering. It is not academic answers they want.

Liz


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> And neither do those of us who choose NOT to believe. Now please excuse me, I am packing my suitcase - it's obviously going to be hot where I am heading (because I am going there because I am an individual and I do not believe)! :devil:


Save me a seat :thumbup:

Liz going back to the whole if there was a God and war etc, please then tell me if there was a God how he could have sat upon high and watched what happened to the Jews in WW2 ? How could he sit and watch what happened at 9/11 ?

I don't believe in anything I was brought CofE and love the Bible stories as stories very much in the way I love snow white/cinderella etc but as for a God if he does exist he is a cruel heartless God for allowing all the hurt that has been created.


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

lizward said:


> I am sorry to hear about your nephew. Is he on the transplant list then?
> 
> Liz


Thanks, but there is no cure


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> You might like to look into the history of how we got the Bible before saying much more in that vein. You would probably be very surprised at the textual evidence we have. Scholars have very little disagreement about what the text actually is, and none of any doctrinal significance.
> 
> Liz


scholars of faith have very little disagreement but it is true that the bible you now read has changed many times by man.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Yep I am in the uk. 

They ONLY study god and jesus at the moment (they are 5 and 6yrs old) If i had my way i would pull them out of ANY lessons that had god as a base ground. I dont believe one regilion should be thrown in thier faces and they should be able to make up thier own minds with who/if they follow.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> You might like to look into the history of how we got the Bible before saying much more in that vein. You would probably be very surprised at the textual evidence we have. Scholars have very little disagreement about what the text actually is, and none of any doctrinal significance.


Weren't there tons of gospels, but men decided around 400ad to 'trim' them???


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> There was a post earlier that said wars weren't fought because of religion. What about northern and southern ireland?? Didn't the pope order Queen Elizabeth 1 killed because she was a heretic, and sent the spanish armada to try to do so? Why were Christians fed to lions? Come on, there are loads of deaths that have been attributed to religion and religion only.


Northern and Southern Ireland is vastly more complicated than religion. It's about political loyalties and goes back to the way Ireland has historically been treated by England. As for heresy, yes, it was regarded as treason, I said so. The same applied in early Rome to the Christians, they were given the option to offer worship to a statue of the emperor and acknowledge him as God. They refused. They were also a very convenient scapegoat for the great fire of Rome. None of these were wars over the existence or otherwise of God, which was what was suggested.

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> In Pastoral work you learn very quickly that questions like this are not asking for academic answers. A child and his family are suffering. It is not academic answers they want.
> 
> Liz


Im not sure thats actually true...many people on here have asked you questions you seem unable to answer.
It was i believe a direct question that was asked


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

lizward said:


> I was brought up Anglican. These days, I am a Baptist Lay Preacher. In short, I am on the conservative side of Evangelical.
> 
> Liz


Phew I shall have to google that one. (ignorant about faiths0


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> No no better...you are assuming i would ignore the warning sign :confused1:
> You are also assumimg i would ignore the man in front of me waving his arms..that i can clearly see.


Certainly, that is exactly the point.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Can I ask - do you believe that people like methuselah actually lived to 969 years old?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Im not sure thats actually true...many people on here have asked you questions you seem unable to answer.
> It was i believe a direct question that was asked


I am not getting into personal pastoral work on an internet forum!

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am not getting into personal pastoral work on an internet forum!
> 
> Liz


Funny earlier on you seemed to want to enlighten us all


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

bullet said:


> But there is growing evidence to suggest that he didnt actually die on the cross, and therefore was never ressurected


What evidence have you in mind?

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Certainly, that is exactly the point.
> 
> Liz


What point is it you are trying to make?


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

Daynna said:


> Yep I am in the uk.
> 
> They ONLY study god and jesus at the moment (they are 5 and 6yrs old) If i had my way i would pull them out of ANY lessons that had god as a base ground. I dont believe one regilion should be thrown in thier faces and they should be able to make up thier own minds with who/if they follow.


I have to ask though do you celebrate easter and christmas as they are both religious festivals ?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Can I ask - do you believe that people like methuselah actually lived to 969 years old?


The ages in Genesis are an interesting issue. I did once find a theory that I found relatively convincing but it was so complicated that I couldn't even understand a lot of it let alone explain it! My default position, though, until I am convinced otherwise, is that earlier deaths after the Genesis flood were due to deterioration of the earth - life gets shorter as you go through Genesis and then into the life of Moses.

Liz


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

lizward said:


> In Pastoral work you learn very quickly that questions like this are not asking for academic answers. A child and his family are suffering. It is not academic answers they want.
> 
> Liz


Please dont get me wrong, i respect other peoples beliefs and religions, what i cant understand is that none can give me straight answers to questions that are the very heart of the religions, yet can preach with specifics that they believe are facts and expect everyone to believe as gospel (excuse the pun)


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I have no religion really, but for those of you who do, if god created everything as it says in the bible, where did he come from, and who made him ?????:confused1:


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> The ages in Genesis are an interesting issue. I did once find a theory that I found relatively convincing but it was so complicated that I couldn't even understand a lot of it let alone explain it! My default position, though, until I am convinced otherwise, is that earlier deaths after the Genesis flood were due to deterioration of the earth - life gets shorter as you go through Genesis and then into the life of Moses.


I don't understand what you mean. Could you make your default position clearer for me please?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GreyHare said:


> Liz going back to the whole if there was a God and war etc, please then tell me if there was a God how he could have sat upon high and watched what happened to the Jews in WW2 ?


He didn't sit back and watch. He gave victory to the allies.



> How could he sit and watch what happened at 9/11 ?How could he sit and watch what happened at 9/11 ?


Horrible things happen and they result from human sin. God does not normally intervene until His people cry out to Him. Why should he force himself into the lives of those who hate him? It's easy to think that God should stop someone from doing evil but where does that end? Do you want him to strike you dead if you are about to commit a sin? No? Then why should he strike other sinnners dead?

More later, my shower calls and then Casualty followed by dog walking.

Liz


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

GreyHare said:


> I have to ask though do you celebrate easter and christmas as they are both religious festivals ?


Christmas isnt religious in our house, never has been so yes we do. God isnt mentioned. It wasnt when i was a child, it was about being with my family, exchanging gifts e.t.c

we dont really do easter tho, and to my children its about bunnies and chocolate.

I am happy to talk to my children about regilion, if they want to go to sunday school they can at thier own choice, not through mine. They know about a few other regilions because i have expalined it the school has not hence why i would like a total non-regilious school Unless they can explain and teach the children about different religions


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2010)

lizward said:


> He didn't sit back and watch. He gave victory to the allies.
> 
> Horrible things happen and they result from human sin. God does not normally intervene until His people cry out to Him. Why should he force himself into the lives of those who hate him? It's easy to think that God should stop someone from doing evil but where does that end? Do you want him to strike you dead if you are about to commit a sin? No? Then why should he strike other sinnners dead?
> 
> ...


He sat back far to long then :frown:

I find the whole Sin/Sinners issue a complete cop out/slap in the face, who really lives with out so called sins, everyone tells white lies from time to time, and everyone at one time has committed one of the 7 Deadly Sins and if you can show me one person who has not then I will believe them to be a liar, but I don't believe that we should die because of it.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> He didn't sit back and watch. He gave victory to the allies.
> 
> Horrible things happen and they result from human sin. God does not normally intervene until His people cry out to Him. Why should he force himself into the lives of those who hate him? It's easy to think that God should stop someone from doing evil but where does that end? Do you want him to strike you dead if you are about to commit a sin? No? Then why should he strike other sinnners dead?
> 
> ...


What a contradiction! So why did god give victory to the allies in WW1/2? And not help the victims in 911? Was there not human sin in the World Wars? Soldiers were trained to kill? isn't killing a sin? Does it not say so in the ten commandments????

How can you justify that? What would of happened if the soldiers fighting for us in the World Wars said sod it, i'm going home! God would of won that war all by himself then I suppose!!! How insulting 

Sorry but I don't see god listed as a soldier on any cenotaph in the land.

Christianity like any other religion is bent and twisted for the benefit of the preacher.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well if there are two of you who apparently don't understand it (is Christian knowledge really so lacking in this country now?) I will explain.
> 
> Standard Christian teaching is that all those who die outside of Christ - ie. able to believe in Him but not actually doing so at the point when they die - spend eternity in hell. Now, if you really truly believe that someone is heading for eternity in hell (in fact, the JWs don't believe this, they just believe you don't get resurrected), you will want to warn them that they are heading there, and that they will in fact go there unless they turn around. Just the same as if they were heading at speed towards a bridge you knew to be broken, you would wave very hard at the car to try to get them to stop.
> 
> Liz


I'm sorry but this is wrong.With the JW religion those that die before armagedon WILL have the chance of resurection(sp).


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

You can't win a debate with a committed brainwashed Christian...they will always have an answer,or like politicians, change the subject to their advantage without answering the question.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Isn't Christmas a Pagan festival high-jacked by the Christianity?????? that's why we still put up holly, ivy and mistletoe.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

My daughter is a committed Christian. She is a Baptist Lay Preacher. I allowed her from an early age (9) to choose whether or not to be involved in a religion, my only criteria was that it must not be 'extreme'. This was despite myself being a non-believer (with a one way ticket to hell an' all that.)  I would no sooner force my non-belief on her than she would force her belief on me. That's how it should be.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Isn't Christmas a Pagan festival high-jacked by the Christianity?????? that's why we still put up holly, ivy and mistletoe.


You are referring to 'Yule'. Easter was 'Ostara'. Yes, they were around long before Christianity took them over. I am no expert though so here is a link which I think will explain more - Pagan Festivals

I have many friends who are Pagan and some are Wiccan. None of them dance round fires in the buff (aka 'skyclad') and none of them eat babies or worship the devil. Most of them are involved in caring for others and some even believe in God too! I just like the relaxed company but although I have partaken in some rituals, I don't follow their chosen faiths myself and they respect that without preaching at me. I like that.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

Went to watch x-factor...
I agree with another poster who has mentioned that like politicians some questions remain unanswered..mostly because they dont know the answer but will not admit it.

When opening poster comes back i would also like to ask the question...where did we all come from (serious question)

And i would still like to know how the bridge comparison works as she compared to believing in religion.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> The proof you need is in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
> 
> Liz


But how does that prove Christianity has got it right, and that the Christian god is the only god? If indeed it did happen, the most it could prove is that the Christian god can ressurrect someone from the dead. There are countless other myths in other religions where gods and goddesses have resurrected someone from the dead.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> He didn't sit back and watch. He gave victory to the allies.
> 
> Liz


I'm sure all the millions of jews who died horrible deaths will be eternally grateful to realise that the christian god eventually (one presumes when he finally decided to get round to it) gave victory to the allies instead of just stopping things before all the millions were tortured and killed.

On the other hand, I'm sure that all the people who died a horrible death in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are equally as grateful to know that they died that death because the christian god wanted the allies to win.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GreyHare said:


> I find the whole Sin/Sinners issue a complete cop out/slap in the face, who really lives with out so called sins, everyone tells white lies from time to time, and everyone at one time has committed one of the 7 Deadly Sins and if you can show me one person who has not then I will believe them to be a liar, but I don't believe that we should die because of it.


 But you are not God, and God makes the rules.

Liz


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> But you are not God, and God makes the rules.
> 
> Liz


Not in my world he doesn't. We are not forcing our views on you so please show some respect and leave us to our disbelief.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Liz, I think you shot yourself in the foot with your comment about WW2. There have been many wars and hundreds of thousands of Christians killed. If you had said he had nothing to do with the outcome of any of them, fair enough, but to say he helped the allies in WW2 is ludicrous.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Daynna said:


> They ONLY study god and jesus at the moment


Well for goodness sake, they are 5 and 6! They will be taught all the other stuff soon enough I assure you. If you want to, you have the right in law to remove them from RE lessons anyway.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MissShelley said:


> What a contradiction! So why did god give victory to the allies in WW1/2?


In WW2 at least, we had a Christian king who called the nation to prayer. And yes, Hitler had to be stopped.



> And not help the victims in 911?


Do you know that he didn't? People die. That is not a surprise, surely. Death is not the end.



> Was there not human sin in the World Wars? Soldiers were trained to kill? isn't killing a sin? Does it not say so in the ten commandments????


The ten commandments forbid murder. They do not forbid war.



> How can you justify that? What would of happened if the soldiers fighting for us in the World Wars said sod it, i'm going home!


Somehow I don't think that would have happened, do you?

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> I have no religion really, but for those of you who do, if god created everything as it says in the bible, where did he come from, and who made him ?????:confused1:


Silly question, with all due respect - a question for children. God just IS.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> God just IS.


......and that is the crux of it. I don't believe he is. You do. Not much more to argue, is there??


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> The ten commandments forbid murder. They not not forbid war.


I thought it said "Thou Shalt Not *KILL*"


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

You have an answer to everything don't you Liz? Repeating everything you've been taught by others of the same ilk.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> I'm sorry but this is wrong.With the JW religion those that die before armagedon WILL have the chance of resurection(sp).


Are you sure this doesn't just apply to those who have been good? I'm sure the ones that visit me told me that not everyone gets resurrected, some simply don't.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> But how does that prove Christianity has got it right, and that the Christian god is the only god? If indeed it did happen, the most it could prove is that the Christian god can ressurrect someone from the dead. There are countless other myths in other religions where gods and goddesses have resurrected someone from the dead.


No no, you have missed the point of the resurrection completely. Jesus himself raised three others from the dead. They died again. Jesus was raised never to die again.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm sure all the millions of jews who died horrible deaths will be eternally grateful to realise that the christian god eventually (one presumes when he finally decided to get round to it) gave victory to the allies instead of just stopping things before all the millions were tortured and killed.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm sure that all the people who died a horrible death in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are equally as grateful to know that they died that death because the christian god wanted the allies to win.


None of these people prayed to the Christian God.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> You have an answer to everything don't you Liz? Repeating everything you've been taught by others of the same ilk.


Not everything, no  I have had a fair amount of practice in this sort of thing though!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I thought it said "Thou Shalt Not *KILL*"


You need to look at a more modern translation. God Himself commanded war against Israel's enemies and he also commanded the death penalty. The Hebrew word refers to unlawful killing, it includes causing death by negligence but it does not include war or judicial execution - how could it? God commanded those things (before someone decides to twist my words, I am not suggesting that God commanded that every war that was ever fought should be fought).

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> ......and that is the crux of it. I don't believe he is. You do. Not much more to argue, is there??


You have permission to withdraw if you are tired of the debate 

Liz


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> In WW2 at least, we had a Christian king who called the nation to prayer. And yes, Hitler had to be stopped


Hitler was stopped, but not by god



> Do you know that he didn't? People die. That is not a surprise, surely. Death is not the end


Apparently not according to your implication earlier!, if you say so it must be true eh?



> The ten commandments forbid murder. They not not forbid war.


So war is ok if there's no murder? So god was an advocate of violence then? 



> Somehow I don't think that would have happened, do you


Was more likely to happen, more likely than god giving the allies victory, which um didn't happen


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> None of these people prayed to the Christian God.
> 
> Liz


So they deserved to die horrible deaths? Very nice! I would not wish that on anyone and I don't believe!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> None of these people prayed to the Christian God.
> 
> Liz


Oh well, that's all right then. He doesn't have to save mankind, only those who worship him. Bit selfish of a deity, to have all that power and only use it for those who make him feel good by pandering to his whims, don't you think?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Not in my world he doesn't. We are not forcing our views on you so please show some respect and leave us to our disbelief.


If you want to leave the debate you are free to do so 

Liz


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

This thread is a classic.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Oh well, that's all right then. He doesn't have to save mankind, only those who worship him. Bit selfish of a deity, to have all that power and only use it for those who make him feel good by pandering to his whims, don't you think?


He is not obliged to save ANYBODY.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> So they deserved to die horrible deaths?


Who said that? God didn't kill them, Hitler's cronies did.

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Silly question, with all due respect - a question for children. God just IS.
> 
> Liz


That is very condescending!
Member was asking a ligitimate question...if you cant answer the question with your faith do not attempt to belittle someone who asks a genuine question.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> No no, you have missed the point of the resurrection completely. Jesus himself raised three others from the dead. They died again. Jesus was raised never to die again.
> 
> Liz


Hmm. Yet he's not here, walking aorund, having a skinny latte at Starbucks, is he? No, I haven't missed the point. The point is it is no different from any of the other resurrection myths in other religions.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MissShelley said:


> Hitler was stopped, but not by god


He was stopped by the allies, who happened to have prayed to God (in days when people in general in the West feared God, even though churchgoing was not a majority activity)



> So war is ok if there's no murder? So god was an advocate of violence then?


Well which do you want? Did you want God to sanction war or let Hitler have free rein over Europe? You can't have it both ways!

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> You have permission to withdraw if you are tired of the debate


Bored more like it. You don't have a leg to stand on. I'm happy that you have faith, I'm sure it comforts you. In some ways I am envious of that. But your debating skills aren't a patch on my 'born again Christian' friends'. And I don't need your permission for anything.



lizward said:


> You need to look at a more modern translation.


  

It is 12.18am here in Saudi Arabia (where every muslim thinks they have it right - and probably have more historical evidence). Goodnight.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> If you want to leave the debate you are free to do so
> 
> Liz


Oh do I have your permission? How kind! :lol:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Hmm. Yet he's not here, walking aorund, having a skinny latte at Starbucks, is he? No, I haven't missed the point. The point is it is no different from any of the other resurrection myths in other religions.


Jesus ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God.

Now, since you mention other religions, which ones do you have in mind? What other religion has the Son of God dying in the place of sinners?

Liz


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> He was stopped by the allies, who happened to have prayed to God (in days when people in general in the West feared God, even though churchgoing was not a majority activity)
> 
> Well which do you want? Did you want God to sanction war or let Hitler have free rein over Europe? You can't have it both ways!
> 
> Liz


Hahahaha!!! Oh so it's not god now? it's the allies praying then??? Yer, i'm sure they prayed lots when out on the frontline 

God did not sanction anything, because my love, god does not exist. I was just pointing out that war goes hand in hand with murder, you can't have one without the other.


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

lizward said:


> Jesus ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God.
> 
> Now, since you mention other religions, which ones do you have in mind? What other religion has the Son of God dying in the place of sinners?
> 
> Liz


How do you know? Ive actually talked to god, could you believe that


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

bullet said:


> How do you know? Ive actually talked to god, could you believe that


Why would I not believe that? What did he say to you?

liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> He is not obliged to save ANYBODY.
> 
> Liz


Hmmm. If I breed a dog (which is the nearest I can get to creating life) then I would feel obliged to make sure that dog lived a happy life, and would also feel obliged to rescue and save that dog the very second I heard it was being hurt by someone else. If I didn't behave in this way, people would - rightly so - castigate me for being a bad breeder. So can we therefore castigate god for being a bad "breeder" when he doesn't feel obliged to take care of his creations?


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

wel!!...what a thread to start of with the OP talking to JHW till this,,

I myself Practise my faith..but i do find some comments of yours Liz a bit extreme

goodnight 

juliex


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

Im still waiting for liz to tell me where i came from lol


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

toria said:


> Im still waiting for liz to tell me where i came from lol


You just are... and it just is..... alright?

Is that not good enough for you friend?! Sheesh.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Jesus ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God.
> 
> Now, since you mention other religions, which ones do you have in mind? What other religion has the Son of God dying in the place of sinners?
> 
> Liz


I didn't say any religion had this. This is a peculiarity of the Christian religion. What I did say is that there are many other religions with resurrection myths, with Gods who are sacrificed/sacrifice themselves - from Osiris in egyptian religion through countless pagan religions. All christianity has done is hitched a ride on the back of these.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MissShelley said:


> Hahahaha!!! Oh so it's not god now? it's the allies praying then???


God answers the prayers of his people. That is basic Christian doctrine. He has even been known to answer the prayers of those who are not his people but nevertheless "fear God" (technical term meaning to have reverence for him). One can find examples of this all through the Bible and I have no difficulty at all in believing that the miracles of deliverance in WW2 can be attributed to this. You are free to disagree of course.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I have to go to bed - I am up early for a dog show tomorrow.

But I'm finding this thread very interesting and will be back tomorrow to continue (if this thread isn't locked or banned by then!)


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

lizward said:


> Why would I not believe that? What did he say to you?
> 
> liz


Whatever he said to me could be open to misinterpritation, but what i am trying to say is that by influencing enough gullible people i could start my own religion with followers which could grow large enough to challenge the larger faiths, i could then infiltrate world politics, change world views and ultimately rule the world, isnt that what religion is about at the end of the day, world domination, even if it means killing millions in the process


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I didn't say any religion had this. This is a peculiarity of the Christian religion. What I did say is that there are many other religions with resurrection myths, with Gods who are sacrificed/sacrifice themselves - from Osiris in egyptian religion through countless pagan religions. All christianity has done is hitched a ride on the back of these.


 If you were looking to start a new religion in the first century in the middle East, there is no way you would start with a crucified man. Compare the details of these religions and you will see that the similarities are very superficial indeed. Your argument is no more valid than saying "My dog has four legs, cats have four legs, therefore my dog must have cats in its ancestry."

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

bullet said:


> Whatever he said to me could be open to misinterpritation, but what i am trying to say is that by influencing enough gullible people i could start my own religion with followers which could grow large enough to challenge the larger faiths, i could then infiltrate world politics, change world views and ultimately rule the world, isnt that what religion is about at the end of the day, world domination, even if it means killing millions in the process


I rather doubt that you could acheive this but you are free to try 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm finding this thread very interesting and will be back tomorrow to continue (if this thread isn't locked or banned by then!)


I can't see any reason for it to be locked or banned, I am not getting remotely offended and unbelievers are in a huge majority here so surely they are not feeling offended. I can't really see any problem. I hope I am not proven wrong!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Im still waiting for liz to tell me where i came from lol


Well, when a Mummy and a Daddy love each other, sometimes they get close together and ..... :lol::lol::lol:

Liz


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

lizward said:


> Your argument is no more valid than saying "My dog has four legs, cats have four legs, therefore my dog must have cats in its ancestry."
> 
> Liz


You can't say that but you can validly say that dogs and cats and all 4-legged things do have a common ancestor at some point in evolutionary history, which is essentially the same point and a valid one. Unless you happen to believe in campfire stories over hard evidence.

Oh well.


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

lizward said:


> I rather doubt that you could acheive this but you are free to try
> 
> Liz


Ok, maybe not in one life time, but the basics are the same with nearly all religion, you only have to look at christian missionaries and spanish conquestadors, all in the name of god, create fear and kill and torture non believers. I think the time has come now that people world wide are wising up and can see the wider picture, hence falling church attendencies


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well, when a Mummy and a Daddy love each other, sometimes they get close together and ..... :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Liz


I am smiling to myself now as you are very predictable 

If you could kindly explain then where all humans came from you know since you want to enlighten people what with you being a pracher n all that


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> You just are... and it just is..... alright?
> 
> Is that not good enough for you friend?! Sheesh.


jennifer i know really i should just lay down & not question things...but isent that why god gave us minds of our own


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

Religion is about brainwashing and control.

I have time for spirituality (which is distinct from organised religion) and morality but not for people not being able to think for themselves.

Creationism used to make me quite angry but now it just makes me laugh and also feel a bit sorry for people for being so blinkered.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

lmfao whats happened while i have been at work! ive missed the lot!

and scuse the pun but i actually said "jesus" as i saw how many pages there are! lol


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> lmfao whats happened while i have been at work! ive missed the lot!
> 
> and scuse the pun but i actually said "jesus" as i saw how many pages there are! lol


see what youve done young lady, you've just started a religious war, and created several new faiths from one thread:lol:


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> lmfao whats happened while i have been at work! ive missed the lot!
> 
> and scuse the pun but i actually said "jesus" as i saw how many pages there are! lol


If you want to start a hot topic, any mention of religion or politics will work wonders.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

bullet said:


> see what youve done young lady, you've just started a religious war, and created several new faiths from one thread:lol:


lmao thats coz your all going to be believers in Vicisum from now on. 
i hope theres been no arguing while ive been away!


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

DogLover1981 said:


> If you want to start a hot topic, any mention of religion or politics will work wonders.


i was only trying to say that im in such a good mood that i spoke to a johovas witness and mostly about cats! lol


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> lmao thats coz your all going to be believers in Vicisum from now on.
> i hope theres been no arguing while ive been away!


none what so ever oh great one:thumbup:


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> i was only trying to say that im in such a good mood that i spoke to a johovas witness and mostly about cats! lol


thats all it takes:lol:


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Jesus ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God.
> 
> Now, since you mention other religions, which ones do you have in mind? What other religion has the Son of God dying in the place of sinners?
> 
> Liz


Hmm thats not strictly true..im sure Pontius Pilate, had jesus crucified as he opposed the payment of taxes to Caesar and went round calling himself a king.


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

bullet said:


> none what so ever oh great one:thumbup:


good people, now go get me more stuff to make my scones for next weeks party or none of you are invited! 



bullet said:


> thats all it takes:lol:


clearly :scared: (im not a debator at all lol)


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

vickie1985 said:


> good people, now go get me more stuff to make my scones for next weeks party or none of you are invited!
> 
> clearly :scared: (im not a debator at all lol)


Nothing like a good mass debate:lol:


----------



## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

bullet said:


> Nothing like a good mass debate:lol:


lol not so keen on them publicy to be honest


----------



## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

::tuts at you lot:: 
I've just had to take my jumpers out of my suitcase because I shan't be needing them where I'm going..........


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

bullet said:


> Ok, maybe not in one life time, but the basics are the same with nearly all religion, you only have to look at christian missionaries and spanish conquestadors, all in the name of god, create fear and kill and torture non believers. I think the time has come now that people world wide are wising up and can see the wider picture, hence falling church attendencies


Church attendance is falling indeed in the West (growing rapidly in other parts of the world though) but I somehow doubt if that is the reason.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Hmm thats not strictly true..im sure Pontius Pilate, had jesus crucified as he opposed the payment of taxes to Caesar and went round calling himself a king.


You need to read the Gospels if you think that was the issue.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> If you could kindly explain then where all humans came from you know since you want to enlighten people what with you being a pracher n all that


Why? It is not directly relevant. I have already said on this thread, I know many fine Christians who believe in theistic evolution.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Werehorse said:


> I have time for spirituality (which is distinct from organised religion)


How would you define spirituality?

Liz


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

lizward said:


> Church attendance is falling indeed in the West (growing rapidly in other parts of the world though) but I somehow doubt if that is the reason.
> 
> Liz


why do you think its falling in the west


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

bullet said:


> why do you think its falling in the west


Because people are too wealthy, and because most will not pay the price of following Christ. And it isn't helped by the mainstream churches constantly watering things down as they bend over backwards to try to persuade those with no interest in God to come to church. Some churches are actually growing and those are the ones that stick to their beliefs rather than compromising.

Liz


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

lizward said:


> Because people are too wealthy, and because most will not pay the price of following Christ. And it isn't helped by the mainstream churches constantly watering things down as they bend over backwards to try to persuade those with no interest in God to come to church. Some churches are actually growing and those are the ones that stick to their beliefs rather than compromising.
> 
> Liz


how can you say they are too wealthy. when the church in this country owns so much land and property, clergymen are on a wage, the pope sits on his regal throne in his massive expensive buildings, flying the world, even the baptist church in our town has expensive fittings. its just crying out hypocracy


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

bullet said:


> how can you say they are too wealthy. when the church in this country owns so much land and property, clergymen are on a wage, the pope sits on his regal throne in his massive expensive buildings, flying the world, even the baptist church in our town has expensive fittings. its just crying out hypocracy


What has the church's wealth (for most churches, this wealth is based on the past) have to do with the wealth of the people in the country who don't attend church? I don't see the connection. If you are saying that some churches have too much money, I agree, but I still don't see the connection. In fact many many small churches are seriously struggling, but that's another issue.

Liz


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> Because people are too wealthy, and because most will not pay the price of following Christ. And it isn't helped by the mainstream churches constantly watering things down as they bend over backwards to try to persuade those with no interest in God to come to church. Some churches are actually growing and those are the ones that stick to their beliefs rather than compromising.
> 
> Liz


gosh thats a bit of a generalistation lol...im certainly not wealthy the reasons i no longer believe have nothing to do with money in my case, my reasons are because i dont believe a God would want us to treat the rest of his creations like s**t! and want us to breed until the earth can no longer support us... and because ive read the books by Richard Dawkins

at the end of the day the bible was written by men not some God.


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I still can't get over the war thing. Didn't Jesus say "turn the other cheek"?? So were he and God in disagreement on this when God decided to help the allies and therefore secure the deaths of thousands of others? (which, btw, many of were Christian - in fact, wasn't Hitler a Christian?) LOL this thread is so funny....


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

ps - you didn't make your default position on the age of Methuselah clearer for me.....


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I think the Christian views have ended up very one sided and orthodox in here and I'm very disappointed any question has been left unanswered 

I'm confident I have answers for the lot but it doesn't mean everyone else will agree and they are naturally opinion and individual interpretation. I personally believe forgetting what any of us believe we have the duty to be open minded and I don't actually feel any exact faith is correct and from certain answers or ignored questions feel myself a tad disappointed to have been represented in this way by the faith I conform to the most. It's a shame about the stigma that comes along with religion, that all people of x faith believe this etc.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> gosh thats a bit of a generalistation lol...im certainly not wealthy the reasons i no longer believe have nothing to do with money in my case, my reasons are because i dont believe a God would want us to treat the rest of his creations like s**t! and want us to breed until the earth can no longer support us... and because ive read the books by Richard Dawkins
> 
> at the end of the day the bible was written by men not some God.


I don't feel at all wealthy either. However we all have to accept that in comparison to most of the world ALL of us are wealthy - if you own a book, you are wealthy in global terms!

Dawkins is an interesting character best summarised IMHO by "methinks the man doth protest too much"

As for the way we treat creation, it might be interesting to compare the way we treat it to the way it is treated by those in Atheist states - China for example.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I still can't get over the war thing. Didn't Jesus say "turn the other cheek"?? So were he and God in disagreement on this when God decided to help the allies and therefore secure the deaths of thousands of others? (which, btw, many of were Christian - in fact, wasn't Hitler a Christian?) LOL this thread is so funny....


Jesus was talking about inter-personal relationships, not countries at war. Still, there are Christian pacifists who use such arguments, it is a secondary (or even tertiary) issue.

Hitler was not a Christian in any recognised sense of the word since he did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> I don't actually feel any exact faith is correct and from certain answers or ignored questions feel myself a tad disappointed to have been represented in this way by the faith I conform to the most.


Unless you are a practising Christian who believes the Bible, I make no claim to represent you.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> ps - you didn't make your default position on the age of Methuselah clearer for me.....


You first. I asked you a question far longer ago in this thread than the one you asked about Methuselah. Where did the Christian church come from? Let's discuss that first, then we can do Methuselah if you insist.

Liz


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

The bible also says an eye for an eye so it dont make sense. 

I am a non believer. Was brought up going to church and sunday school been chirstened and confirmed. But now I dont see how if there was a god he would let so much bad happen in the world. Surely he would have shown himself by now and sorted it out?? 

I believe in Mother nature and Aliens!  More of a chance of Aliens being around than a god! 

Catholic churches have too much money, everyone else doesnt have very much money. My mum and dad go to church religiously, my brother is turning into a jehovah witness....see what happens there. I dont begrudge people their belief, people need to believe in something it gives them hope but dont force people to believe.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2010)

bullet said:


> Whatever he said to me could be open to misinterpritation, but what i am trying to say is that by influencing enough gullible people i could start my own religion with followers which could grow large enough to challenge the larger faiths, i could then infiltrate world politics, change world views and ultimately rule the world, isnt that what religion is about at the end of the day, world domination, even if it means killing millions in the process





lizward said:


> I rather doubt that you could acheive this but you are free to try
> 
> Liz





Werehorse said:


> Religion is about brainwashing and control.
> 
> I have time for spirituality (which is distinct from organised religion) and morality but not for people not being able to think for themselves.
> 
> Creationism used to make me quite angry but now it just makes me laugh and also feel a bit sorry for people for being so blinkered.


But anyone can tell gullible people to follow them and often it can end in tragic circumstances for example David Koresh and currently the drive to enlist new members to scientology through tv adverts and the one I saw on MTV was disturbing because it was playing into the hands of teenage angst and exploiting it for their own good.

So Bullet religious order that he could start could well happen and get world domination just as long as he tells his followers what they want to hear, it's all down to confidence and charisma.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Mum2Alfie said:


> I am a non believer. Was brought up going to church and sunday school been chirstened and confirmed. But now I dont see how if there was a god he would let so much bad happen in the world. Surely he would have shown himself by now and sorted it out??


People keep coming up with this one but I suspect only because they have never thought it through. What things would you specifically like God to intervene and stop? Child abuse? OK, what about all sexual immorality? Murder? OK, what about all hate, that leads to murder? Floods? OK, what about him knocking down all houses being built on flood plains? Poverty? OK, how about him redistributing all wealth in the world equally (don't imagine any of us would have the lifestyle we have now, and who would employ anyone else?) and so on and so on.

Liz


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> You first. I asked you a question far longer ago in this thread than the one you asked about Methuselah. Where did the Christian church come from? Let's discuss that first, then we can do Methuselah if you insist.


I replied to that. I'll go find it........


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I consider the reason to be that there quite possibly could have been a very charismatic man called Jesus, and that he talked a lot of sense, so people followed him. I do not believe in all the miracles and stuff in the Bible. The Qur'an is another book - why not believe that one? Because of where you were born? If you had been born here you would most definitely believe in Islam.


That was my reply.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

lizward said:


> Unless you are a practising Christian who believes the Bible, I make no claim to represent you.
> 
> Liz


Others may well view you as a typical xtian though which means to some youmay be representing the xtian faith 

As a matter of fact I am a practicing xtian and believe the bible to the fullest extent possible (IMO) without being hypocritical.

I'm one of those awful wishy washy xtians who thinks the world should be like living amongst fluffy white clouds and who has an answer for everything


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> That was my reply.


Thank you. I had not realised that was your answer to how the Christian church started. Did you not know that it started because of a claim that he rose from the dead?

More much later, I have a service to go to now followed by a church meeting.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> Others may well view you as a typical xtian though which means to some youmay be representing the xtian faith
> 
> As a matter of fact I am a practicing xtian and believe the bible to the fullest extent possible (IMO) without being hypocritical.
> 
> I'm one of those awful wishy washy xtians who thinks the world should be like living amongst fluffy white clouds and who has an answer for everything


I would say I am very typical. What church do you attend?

Liz


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> You need to read the Gospels if you think that was the issue.
> 
> Liz


Are you trying to say jesus was not crucified for the reason i just gave you?


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Why? It is not directly relevant. I have already said on this thread, I know many fine Christians who believe in theistic evolution.
> 
> Liz


Another legitimate question that you cannot answer for us...but to be fair it was the answer i expexted you to say


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

lizward said:


> People keep coming up with this one but I suspect only because they have never thought it through. What things would you specifically like God to intervene and stop? Child abuse? OK, what about all sexual immorality? Murder? OK, what about all hate, that leads to murder? Floods? OK, what about him knocking down all houses being built on flood plains? Poverty? OK, how about him redistributing all wealth in the world equally (don't imagine any of us would have the lifestyle we have now, and who would employ anyone else?) and so on and so on.
> 
> Liz


God is meant to be so good and so just and he has interviened in the past.....but amazingly has NEVER shown himself since the bible was written! So.....how come? There is more evil in this world now than there has ever been. So why not come and sort it all out! If he showed himself then people would understand and believe like you would think he would want you to. But nothing since the bible was written.

Mother nature is the thing that is trying to sort this world out. China...over populated, India...overpopulated......both been hit by natural disasters and they are getting worse all over the world. We will all be dead by natural disasters before god shows himself.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

lizward said:


> I would say I am very typical. What church do you attend?
> 
> Liz


Do you mean which specific parish or type? Type wise a Holy Trinity c of e.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> I don't feel at all wealthy either. However we all have to accept that in comparison to most of the world ALL of us are wealthy - if you own a book, you are wealthy in global terms!
> 
> Dawkins is an interesting character best summarised IMHO by "methinks the man doth protest too much"
> 
> ...


i believed when i was younger nothing has changed except that im older and wiser.

sorry but i dont get that comparison im an athiest lots of my animal loving friends are and yet we still have compassion for animals, i could take the Phillipines for example a predominatly Christian country and cruelty to dogs is the norm over there just as in China, the point i was making is imo if there was a God he wouldnt put our species on a pedestal to the detriment to all other creatures and the earth....if there is some God up there he would want us to live in harmony with our surroundings and be part of the natural world not seperate from it....why would any God want a species to wreck all he has created?!

i think Dawkins is one intelligent bloke!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

toria said:


> Hmm thats not strictly true..im sure Pontius Pilate, had jesus crucified as he opposed the payment of taxes to Caesar and went round calling himself a king.





toria said:


> Are you trying to say jesus was not crucified for the reason i just gave you?


This might answer your question.
Render unto Caesar... - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Thank you. I had not realised that was your answer to how the Christian church started. Did you not know that it started because of a claim that he rose from the dead?


I believe he was followed because he was charismatic and crucified because he went against the popular religion at that time. I believe that once dead, his followers wanted their beliefs to be vindicated and started telling stories of this great Jesus Christ. As with Chinese Whispers, the stories became more and more outrageous, and therefore interesting. So someone wrote them down. Later, other people got rid of bits and changed bits. This was (and is) seen as 'modern translations'. Well, the above is my modern translation - and its what I *believe.*


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Food for thought: Welcome to Enlightenment! Religion â the Tragedy of Mankind - Articles by Kenneth Humphreys Evidence that Jesus never existed 
Did Jesus exist?


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> This might answer your question.
> Render unto Caesar... - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia...


And Also this Who was responsible for Christ's death?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well if there are two of you who apparently don't understand it (is Christian knowledge really so lacking in this country now?) I will explain.
> 
> Standard Christian teaching is that all those who die outside of Christ - ie. able to believe in Him but not actually doing so at the point when they die - spend eternity in hell.
> 
> Liz


So you could spend your whole life doing nothing but good but because you don't believe in God you get to spend eternity in hell?
That's a harsh sentence, is there any chance of an appeal hearing?


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Food for thought: Welcome to Enlightenment! Religion â the Tragedy of Mankind - Articles by Kenneth Humphreys Evidence that Jesus never existed
> Did Jesus exist?


Very interesting reading..


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

hawksport said:


> So you could spend your whole life doing nothing but good but because you don't believe in God you get to spend eternity in hell?
> That's a harsh sentence, is there any chance of an appeal hearing?


Well to be fair there are many people who do good & nothing but good..like innocent children that are killed and many many other instances..but if you do not practise christianity & have a belief in god himself then no sorry you are with the rest of us in erm that supposedly hot place


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

toria said:


> Well to be fair there are many people who do good & nothing but good..like innocent children that are killed and many many other instances..but if you do not practise christianity & have a belief in god himself then no sorry you are with the rest of us in erm that supposedly hot place


In that case then I might aswell make the most of this life and be bad


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

toria said:


> Well to be fair there are many people who do good & nothing but good..like innocent children that are killed and many many other instances..but if you do not practise christianity & have a belief in god himself then no sorry you are with the rest of us in erm that supposedly hot place


Load of bull! What happened to repenting and all can get to heaven. If you havent done bad in your life but not believed you knock on the gates and you can repent.....well thats what the bible teaches.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

lizward said:


> You need to look at a more modern translation. God Himself commanded war against Israel's enemies and he also commanded the death penalty. The Hebrew word refers to unlawful killing, it includes causing death by negligence but it does not include war or judicial execution - how could it? God commanded those things (before someone decides to twist my words, I am not suggesting that God commanded that every war that was ever fought should be fought).
> 
> Liz


So what about the commandment 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'?


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

Mum2Alfie said:


> Load of bull! What happened to repenting and all can get to heaven. If you havent done bad in your life but not believed you knock on the gates and you can repent.....well thats what the bible teaches.


I agree...& really i believe there are many faiths not just christians that say they believe oh i am sorry for what i have done etc when in reality all they are doing is hoping they go somewhere good after death...of course liz may argue that only god himself will truly know if someone repents & so will make the final judgement so hopefully all the religious bashers best hope they are doing it right otherwise they may be in for a rude awakening!


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

well i was interested in the different religions, why people believe what they do etc, but after all this my brain hurts and im sticking with my theory of my own new religion about making scones etc :thumbup:


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

vickie1985 said:


> well i was interested in the different religions, why people believe what they do etc, but after all this my brain hurts and im sticking with my theory of my own new religion about making scones etc :thumbup:


Haahaa!!! Im with ya!   Mind boggling isnt it? I dont care any more to me religion is the centre of all wars! There is no god, no jesus and the bible was written by someone who was bored!


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## vickie1985 (Feb 18, 2009)

Mum2Alfie said:


> Haahaa!!! Im with ya!   Mind boggling isnt it? I dont care any more to me religion is the centre of all wars! There is no god, no jesus and the bible was written by someone who was bored!


as much as i dont want to believe that, and also want to believe that i just cant coz i have to keep such an open mind for adoption and let our child choose their own path. 
when my grandad died i was told he has gone to heaven to live with my nana and the angels, i think its a nice thing to tell a child and i too will most likely say the same.

Then when it thunders and lightens i can say what my mum used to tell me
"its ok, its just ya nana and grandad having an argument" and when it really REALLY rains "they are washing their car"


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

vickie1985 said:


> as much as i dont want to believe that, and also want to believe that i just cant coz i have to keep such an open mind for adoption and let our child choose their own path.
> when my grandad died i was told he has gone to heaven to live with my nana and the angels, i think its a nice thing to tell a child and i too will most likely say the same.
> 
> Then when it thunders and lightens i can say what my mum used to tell me
> "its ok, its just ya nana and grandad having an argument" and when it really REALLY rains "they are washing their car"


Yeah me too. I tell Alfie things like that cause its nice for children to believe that kinda thing, makes them understand death and accept it easier. But I dont say anything about god or jesus. I believe there is a place where we go when dead. A nice place....I believe in souls and angels. I just dont believe in what the bible says. If that makes sense.


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

I have to say I agree with GoldenShadow:


> I think the Christian views have ended up very one sided and orthodox in here and I'm very disappointed any question has been left unanswered


I can't claim to have all the answers, I just know what I believe in, that Jesus Christ died to save me. But that doesn't include God intervening in WW2 or in the world only being x-thousand years old.

By the way I taught RE in Cof E and Catholic schools. All three I taught in had other faiths on the schemes of work. In my last school I also taught both views on the creationism and evolution debate and the children were free to make up their own minds. We had a debate on which side was correct and about some of them were for God creating the world, though that included the Christian, Hindu, Muslim and Jewish members of my class amongst others. Assemblies are less balanced, but it is a legal requirement for there to be a daily act of collective worship to be "wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character" in all English schools (though there are a few exceptions). I'm not sure how that law fits or is right in a mainly secular society, but it's one schools are meant to comply with.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lizward said:


> Silly question, with all due respect - a question for children. God just IS.
> 
> Liz


So you have NO idea where he comes from, then do you????????????


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> Are you trying to say jesus was not crucified for the reason i just gave you?


Indeed. He specifically _refused_ to tell people not to pay taxes to Caesar. He also _refused_ to claim earthly kingship. You need to read the Gospel accounts, there is no historical basis for your claim at all.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> So you have NO idea where he comes from, then do you????????????


I repeat, God comes from nowhere, He just IS. The fact that we are unable to comprehend something with no beginning and no end does not mean that such an entity does not exist.

liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Mum2Alfie said:


> God is meant to be so good and so just and he has interviened in the past.....but amazingly has NEVER shown himself since the bible was written! So.....how come?


Because the Bible is his final revelation to mankind.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

GoldenShadow said:


> Do you mean which specific parish or type? Type wise a Holy Trinity c of e.


I just meant denomination - thanks for answering.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> why would any God want a species to wreck all he has created?!


Well the answer to that one is quite simple. He doesn't.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I believe he was followed because he was charismatic and crucified because he went against the popular religion at that time. I believe that once dead, his followers wanted their beliefs to be vindicated and started telling stories of this great Jesus Christ. As with Chinese Whispers, the stories became more and more outrageous, and therefore interesting. So someone wrote them down. Later, other people got rid of bits and changed bits. This was (and is) seen as 'modern translations'. Well, the above is my modern translation - and its what I *believe.*


O dear, you really are horribly confused. My guess is that you got this from the Muslims - am i right?

Liz


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lizward said:


> I repeat, God comes from nowhere, He just IS. The fact that we are unable to comprehend something with no beginning and no end does not mean that such an entity does not exist.
> 
> liz


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I would love to answer this, but I would be Banned.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

hawksport said:


> So you could spend your whole life doing nothing but good but because you don't believe in God you get to spend eternity in hell?
> That's a harsh sentence, is there any chance of an appeal hearing?


Correct, and no there isn't.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Mum2Alfie said:


> If you havent done bad in your life but not believed you knock on the gates and you can repent.....well thats what the bible teaches.


Chapter and verse please?

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Burrowzig said:


> So what about the commandment 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'?


What about it? It is talking about judicial execution.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

vickie1985 said:


> as much as i dont want to believe that, and also want to believe that i just cant coz i have to keep such an open mind for adoption and let our child choose their own path.


There is a church at which I regularly preach where a couple who are regular attenders adopted two children last year. I do hope things have not yet reached the stage where being a Christian is actually a black mark against people for adoption. Think of the outcry there would be if Muslims experienced that sort of discrimination.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Mum2Alfie said:


> angels. I just dont believe in what the bible says. If that makes sense.


Where does your belief in angels come from?

Liz


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> I repeat, God comes from nowhere, He just IS. The fact that we are unable to comprehend something with no beginning and no end does not mean that such an entity does not exist.
> 
> liz


If he just "IS" and had no begining and no end and was not created could there be more than one and how do you choose which one to follow?
If you have to believe and be a practising christian to go to heaven rather than hell I would presume there would be some kind of age exemption for children. Any idea what age their exemption runs out?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

hawksport said:


> If he just "IS" and had no begining and no end and was not created could there be more than one and how do you choose which one to follow?


No, there is only one God.


> If you have to believe and be a practising christian to go to heaven rather than hell I would presume there would be some kind of age exemption for children. Any idea what age their exemption runs out?


No.

Liz


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

lizward said:


> No, there is only one God.
> 
> No.
> 
> Liz


How can you believe that something can happen once and not possibly happen again?
So a baby who dies shortly after birth having no concept of god goes to hell?


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

lizward said:


> I repeat, God comes from nowhere, He just IS. The fact that we are unable to comprehend something with no beginning and no end does not mean that such an entity does not exist.
> 
> liz


Do you believe every word in the bible is true ?


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

hawksport said:


> If he just "IS" and had no begining and no end and was not created could there be more than one and how do you choose which one to follow?
> If you have to believe and be a practising christian to go to heaven rather than hell I would presume there would be some kind of age exemption for children. Any idea what age their exemption runs out?


*That would depend on which religion you believe. There are religions that believe in many gods whereas others believe in only one god.*


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> O dear, you really are horribly confused. My guess is that you got this from the Muslims - am i right?


hahahahahaha you are soooo funny. I know only a couple of muslims, I am British, I live on a British Compound and I teach British children. The only people who have ever preached to me here are born again Christians. I fear it is *YOU* who is horribly confused - but reading a book with SO many contradictions will do that o a person. :lol::lol::lol:


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> Do you believe every word in the bible is true ?


*Every word from the bible can not be true for many reasons...Man's constant changing and translating it for one example. Also it has been added to and other parts have been removed. That said, it is an example to live by for those that choose to do so.*


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Every word from the bible can not be true for many reasons...Man's constant changing and translating it for one example. Also it has been added to and other parts have been removed. That said, it is an example to live by for those that choose to do so.*


Which bit? Old or New Testament? An eye for an eye or turn the other cheek?


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> Which bit? Old or New Testament? An eye for an eye or turn the other cheek?


*Both...many books were left out of the bible for one thing. If all the books of the bible were inspired by gods word, what gave man the right to leave those scriptures/books out? *


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## bullet (Jan 25, 2009)

Just another thought. If they're all practicing christians, when do they become proper ones? Just trying to lighten the mood


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

bullet said:


> Just another thought. If they're all practicing christians, when do they become proper ones? Just trying to lighten the mood


When they survive the lions


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

hawksport said:


> How can you believe that something can happen once and not possibly happen again?


This question is about the existence of God.  I don't know how else to say it. God just is. He had no beginning, he will have no end. Human minds are finite and should not expect to understand God.



> So a baby who dies shortly after birth having no concept of god goes to hell?


You need to read my post again. You asked if I knew at what age the child becomes responsible for his unbelief. I said no. Meaning, I don't know. I did not claim that newborns go to hell.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I feel quite sad reading thru this thread  I think some people have become quite rude and offensive because they are not getting the answers they want - I find religion totally confusing and yet I do believe in god - I dont think it right or fair to ridicule those who do believe and have a faith in something - what is wrong with that?? so many atheists on this thread seem quite bitter and find it acceptable to put down those that do.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Sorry, I misunderstood your answer


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I feel quite sad reading thru this thread  I think some people have become quite rude and offensive because they are not getting the answers they want - I find religion totally confusing and yet I do believe in god - I dont think it right or fair to ridicule those who do believe and have a faith in something - what is wrong with that?? so many atheists on this thread seem quite bitter and find it acceptable to put down those that do.


*Totally agree. I believe in god although i do not believe in any organized religion. I am however very respectful of other peoples beliefs/religions and think they should be shown respect.*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Happy Paws said:


> Do you believe every word in the bible is true ?


When reading the Bible, you need to take account of things like genre and purpose and audience. If you don't take account of those things, you run into all sorts of apparent contradictions that are not really contradictions at all. But if you ask, do I believe the Bible, the answer is yes absolutely I do.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> hahahahahaha you are soooo funny. I know only a couple of muslims, I am British, I live on a British Compound and I teach British children. The only people who have ever preached to me here are born again Christians.


Well then, let me make a suggestion to you. Next time these people share their faith with you (remember, you said you wanted to have faith), listen to what they say before rushing in and trying to tear them apart. Assuming you really genuinely do want to have faith, of course. The fact remains that you are very confused indeed about the Bible. I don't mean whether you actually believe it or not, I mean about the basics of how we got it - right down to your total misunderstanding of the difference between a text and a translation.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Every word from the bible can not be true for many reasons...Man's constant changing and translating it for one example. Also it has been added to and other parts have been removed. *


You are another one who needs to actually look at the history of how we got the Bible. Basic history can solve an awful lot of difficulties, you know 

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Totally agree. I believe in god although i do not believe in any organized religion. I am however very respectful of other peoples beliefs/religions and think they should be shown respect.*


Thank you Ony! 100% agree with this post ! if being atheist is being like some on here then im glad I believe!


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

lizward said:


> You are another one who needs to actually look at the history of how we got the Bible. Basic history can solve an awful lot of difficulties, you know
> 
> Liz


*I have looked at the history of how we got the bible. That is how i know about which books were chosen to be put in the bible and which ones were left out. There is still alot of contraversy to this day about the books that were left out. *



suzy93074 said:


> Thank you Ony! 100% agree with this post ! if being atheist is being like some on here then im glad I believe!


*Some people think it's clever to have a dig at peoples beliefs Suzy. Sad but true. If someone chooses not to believe in god, all well and good but no need to put others down who do believe.*


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

lizward said:


> Ultimately, in the existence of the Christian church.
> 
> Now, I'll come clean. I am a committed Christian - Baptist Lay Preacher but with theological training to the level I would need for ordination. I could, and believe me I happily will, debate this for as long as you want (well, with breaks I mean, have to sort the animals out and prepare a sermon and go to church and I am supposed to be submitting an essay very soon for which I have so far done little work, and sleeeeep, etc etc, but you get the idea!). But you may not want to debate it to that extent and if I get involved I am not going to be dropping it in a hurry and I am certainly not going to start agreeing that all religions are equal and everyone is going to heaven.
> 
> ...


i will shake your hand Liz...you kept to your word...30+ pages ...and still going strong!!!...

juliex


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> I have looked at the history of how we got the bible. That is how i know about which books were chosen to be put in the bible and which ones were left out. There is still alot of contraversy to this day about the books that were left out.


There is little controversy except over some books of the Old Testament which are disputed between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox. There is no controversy at all over the New Testament. I know of no church that accepts anything other than the 27 NT books we have. The criteria for inclusion in the Canon were quite clear and the churches were working on virtually the same canon we have now from about the mid second century.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

paddyjulie said:


> i will shake your hand Liz...you kept to your word...30+ pages ...and still going strong!!!...
> 
> juliex


Thank you


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> There is little controversy except over some books of the Old Testament which are disputed between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox. There is no controversy at all over the New Testament. I know of no church that accepts anything other than the 27 NT books we have. The criteria for inclusion in the Canon were quite clear and the churches were working on virtually the same canon we have now from about the mid second century.
> 
> Liz


*Sorry but what about John 1 verse 1?*


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

lizward said:


> There is little controversy except over some books of the Old Testament which are disputed between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox. There is no controversy at all over the New Testament. I know of no church that accepts anything other than the 27 NT books we have. The criteria for inclusion in the Canon were quite clear and the churches were working on virtually the same canon we have now from about the mid second century.
> 
> Liz


*There was actually controversy among those deciding which books to allow. There are even those today in some instances that dispute the New Testament. But that aside even the bible is constantly being updated with so called new translations which also seem to cause friction among some. The King James version seems to be the most widely used and recognised as being most accurate.*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but what about John 1 verse 1?*


No-one disputes the canonicity of this verse. The issue is entirely with the translation of "και θεος ην ο λογος" - and only the JWs, whose translation was done by those whose Greek was either very poor or non-existent - actually want to translate that any way other than "The Word was God"

Liz


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Some people think it's clever to have a dig at peoples beliefs Suzy. Sad but true. If someone chooses not to believe in god, all well and good but no need to put others down who do believe.


I've been ridiculed by people of various religions. I usually avoid comments that might offend when in public (and that would include this forum). however...

If someone wants to ridicule my beliefs (and I have no desire to comment back) I ignore it, since they have a right to free speech.


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

> The King James version seems to be the most widely used and recognised as being most accurate.


Now I was always told the opposite to that : Though it is widely used, I can't get my head around the language.

Actually I don't think it really matters what version you read, as long as you accept that there will be small differences. I have about 5 different versions. I prefer the Message as it's easier to read, but I have other version to compare it too. As I can't read fluently the original languages, I have to accept they are best guess translations that get most of the meaning across.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> There was actually controversy among those deciding which books to allow.


The inclusion of Hebrews and James was rather late, and Shepherd of Hermas hung on for a while, but I am not aware of any serious controversy. Which particular books are you thinking of and who disputed them?



> There are even those today in some instances that dispute the New Testament.


Which groups are you thinking of? I know of none



> But that aside even the bible is constantly being updated with so called new translations


Do you understand that the word of God was given to us in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and that translations of this word of God stand or fall on only two counts: 1. their textual basis (disputed between some who use the KJV because they believe the Textus Receptus to be the one we should use, and those who believe we should use the oldest manuscripts ie. the elecectic text) and 2. the accuracy of theit translation from these texts?



> The King James version seems to be the most widely used and recognised as being most accurate.


It is true that there are some Christians who exalt the KJV even above the Textus Receptus. They are in a small minority. I doubt if you would find many such anywhere in the UK. However, if you wish, we can certainly debate using the KJV. No major doctrines are affected.

Liz


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *Totally agree. I believe in god although i do not believe in any organized religion. I am however very respectful of other peoples beliefs/religions and think they should be shown respect.*


Absolutely! I stated that although I don't believe, I do have respect for those who do. But just as I would not force my non-belief on anyone, I don't take too kindly to having 'belief' forced on me. Respect and acceptance work both ways.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

lizward said:


> It is true that there are some Christians who exalt the KJV even above the Textus Receptus. They are in a small minority. I doubt if you would find many such anywhere in the UK. However, if you wish, we can certainly debate using the KJV. No major doctrines are affected.
> 
> Liz


*Odd that most churches use the KJV yet you say they are in the minority?*


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Absolutely! I stated that although I don't believe, I do have respect for those who do. But just as I would not force my non-belief on anyone, I don't take too kindly to having 'belief' forced on me. Respect and acceptance work both ways.


*Totally agree...If someone forces their opinions on me, i just rebel and ignore them. I have a mind of my own and make my own choices. I refuse to be dictated too nor would i dictate to others.   *


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Absolutely! I stated that although I don't believe, I do have respect for those who do. But just as I would not force my non-belief on anyone, I don't take too kindly to having 'belief' forced on me. Respect and acceptance work both ways.


Yes but on this thread over the pages i have seen others ridicule those that believe - but not visa versa - those that believe have just tried to put their argument across - not laugh at others - I do agree though that someone should not force their beliefs onto others which is why for me personally im not a practising christian - I just find it sad that those who dont believe in god or afterlife etc are sometimes so damning because of no said evidence - to me its what helps others that counts and if thats faith in god and afterlife then I can accept that - its a pity others cannot do the same.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well then, let me make a suggestion to you. Next time these people share their faith with you (remember, you said you wanted to have faith), listen to what they say before rushing in and trying to tear them apart. Assuming you really genuinely do want to have faith, of course. The fact remains that you are very confused indeed about the Bible. I don't mean whether you actually believe it or not, I mean about the basics of how we got it - right down to your total misunderstanding of the difference between a text and a translation.


I HAVE, honestly I have. But it doesn't make sense, is full of holes and contradictions.


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

> Odd that most churches use the KJV yet you say they are in the minority?


I thought most of the churches I've been into in the last few years (methodist/CofE) and used their bibles use the TNIV, But I wasn't studying them too closely so I could be wrong on that.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes but on this thread over the pages i have seen others ridicule those that believe - but not visa versa - those that believe have just tried to put their argument across - not laugh at others - I do agree though that someone should not force their beliefs onto others which is why for me personally im not a practising christian - I just find it sad that those who dont believe in god or afterlife etc are sometimes so damning because of no said evidence - to me its what helps others that counts and if thats faith in god and afterlife then I can accept that - its a pity others cannot do the same.


*The way i look at it Suzy....Those that don't believe usually say "there's no proof of a god"....my reply..." there's no proof that he doesn't exist either". *


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *The way i look at it Suzy....Those that don't believe usually say "there's no proof of a god"....my reply..." there's no proof that he doesn't exist either". *


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Lady Sol said:


> I thought most of the churches I've been into in the last few years (methodist/CofE) and used their bibles use the TNIV, But I wasn't studying them too closely so I could be wrong on that.


*Not so sure these days but the KJV is alot older.*


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

> I HAVE, honestly I have. But it doesn't make sense, is full of holes and contradictions.


I felt like that when I took my ex along to Alpha. I believe because I have faith. Listening to the arguments for sometimes just made me want to go "but why does..." or "where's your proof..." and I believe - it's just the engineer in me coming out.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> If you were looking to start a new religion in the first century in the middle East, there is no way you would start with a crucified man. Compare the details of these religions and you will see that the similarities are very superficial indeed. Your argument is no more valid than saying "My dog has four legs, cats have four legs, therefore my dog must have cats in its ancestry."
> 
> Liz


Oh no, Lizward, you are completely wrong about the smiliarities being very superficial. My argument is much more valid than saying "My dog has four legs, cats have four legs, therefore my dog must have cats in its ancestry." Rather, my argument is saying, "Your animal is identical to mine in every way; my animal is a dog, therefore your animal is a dog".

Lets just take one religion - the old religion of this country. The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspcts for its own. In the old religion there is Yule - when the sun god, the god of light, is born. In christianity we have Christmas, when the sun of God is born -and set at the same time of Yule even though the actual date of Christ's birth was somwhere around March time. In the old religion there was Ostara, a festival of rebirth. In christianity we have Easter, when the son of God is reborn. I could go on, but I'm not here to lecture on the old religion - just to point out to you that you are wrong in your claims that christianity is unique..

It isn't. It isn't even the most widely-spread religion in the world. It is one religion amongst many, and sharing the same beliefs amd myths as many.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I believe he was followed because he was charismatic and crucified because he went against the popular religion at that time. I believe that once dead, his followers wanted their beliefs to be vindicated and started telling stories of this great Jesus Christ. As with Chinese Whispers, the stories became more and more outrageous, and therefore interesting. So someone wrote them down. Later, other people got rid of bits and changed bits. This was (and is) seen as 'modern translations'. Well, the above is my modern translation - and its what I *believe.*


I think you've probably got it right - the only bit I would add is that the very early leaders quickly saw it as a way to gain power and control and so added bits that would subjugate the masses and give themselves even more power and control. This has multiplied and magnified over the ages.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> So what about the commandment 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live'?


That's not the word of god - that was written by men who were afraid that the people wouold listen more to the wise women, the leaders of the old relgion, than to them. So they vilified them and made them into the witch caricature people think of today. They did the same with the horned god - they turned a nature deity into a fallen angel called Satan so that people would be frightened and look to them for protection, rather than the old religion. Then, just to make sure everyone was too afraid to do anything other then obey the new religion of christianity, they invented a place called hell to which everyone would go if they dared to think for themselves.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I think you've probably got it right - the only bit I would add is that the very early leaders quickly saw it as a way to gain power and control and so added bits that would subjugate the masses and give themselves even more power and control. This has multiplied and magnified over the ages.


*This is exactly how i see organized religion. No offence to those who hold their beliefs dear but i honestly see it as a way to control the masses. No-one is usually allowed to question the people at the top in religions. Well i was given a free thinking brain that likes knowledge and truth, therefore i seek my information from all sources. There also seem to be alot of religions that run along the same theme, alot also stem from paganism. I do know Christmas for example is pagan but the christians chose to use it and associate it with the birth of christ. But as you rightly said, christ would not have even been born at that time of year. *


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I feel quite sad reading thru this thread  I think some people have become quite rude and offensive because they are not getting the answers they want - I find religion totally confusing and yet I do believe in god - I dont think it right or fair to ridicule those who do believe and have a faith in something - what is wrong with that?? so many atheists on this thread seem quite bitter and find it acceptable to put down those that do.


I take your point Suzy; we should all honour each other's beliefs, respect them not ridicule them. But to be fair, a lot of the ridiculing has been done by a christian lay preacher, who refuses to see any point of view other than her own narrow one. It is what she believes, and good for her for standing up for her beliefs. However, anyone who states something like this on an open forum has to accept that there will be people who will disagree, people who will be angry at her dismissal of their beliefs, and people who will want to point out to her where they think she is wrong.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well for goodness sake, they are 5 and 6! They will be taught all the other stuff soon enough I assure you. If you want to, you have the right in law to remove them from RE lessons anyway.
> 
> Liz


Yes they are young, BUT why so many yrs down the line say "oh yes btw there are a few more regilions" why not teach them it from the start. Its not just re lessons, assemblies are also regilious.

I do not wish to remove them through my own non believing, as i said before I dont believe but i do not wish to put my own beliefs on to them, my son is actually very interested we spend a while read and looking at bible stories because hes interested. But i also add about other regilions and that some people like myself dont believe i feel they chould have a choice even at a young age.

I do feel strongly about choice my own families tradition (and the oh's) is to christian the first born we havnt done that because we feel we would be choosing their path. just as we wouldnt get married in a church i am not christianed so we couldnt but also i would feel a hypocrit doing it.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmydogs
I believe he was followed because he was charismatic and crucified because he went against the popular religion at that time. I believe that once dead, his followers wanted their beliefs to be vindicated and started telling stories of this great Jesus Christ. As with Chinese Whispers, the stories became more and more outrageous, and therefore interesting. So someone wrote them down. Later, other people got rid of bits and changed bits. This was (and is) seen as 'modern translations'. Well, the above is my modern translation - and its what I believe.


Spellweaver said:


> I think you've probably got it right - the only bit I would add is that the very early leaders quickly saw it as a way to gain power and control and so added bits that would subjugate the masses and give themselves even more power and control. This has multiplied and magnified over the ages.


Thanks. Now to be honest I'm really bored with this thread. I won't be replying again, because there's no way Liz and I will EVER agree. She thinks she is right, and I _know_ I am.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Daynna said:


> I do not wish to remove them through my own non believing, as i said before I dont believe but i do not wish to put my own beliefs on to them, my son is actually very interested we spend a while read and looking at bible stories because hes interested. But i also add about other regilions and that some people like myself dont believe i feel they chould have a choice even at a young age.
> 
> .


*I brought my son up to question everything and never to believe just what he was told. I think it's good that kids get to see/hear things from all sides and make their own choices later in life. *


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I brought my son up to question everything and never to believe just what he was told. I think it's good that kids get to see/hear things from all sides and make their own choices later in life. *


I wish more parents felt this way. I think that is much more healthy than indoctrinating a child into a faith - any faith.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Lets just take one religion - the old religion of this country. The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspcts for its own. In the old religion there is Yule - when the sun god, the god of light, is born. In christianity we have Christmas, when the sun of God is born -and set at the same time of Yule even though the actual date of Christ's birth was somwhere around March time. In the old religion there was Ostara, a festival of rebirth. In christianity we have Easter, when the son of God is reborn. I could go on, but I'm not here to lecture on the old religion - just to point out to you that you are wrong in your claims that christianity is unique..


True and if people would not convert to Catholicism, they were persecuted and often put to death. Then, when Henry VIII created the Church of England, he had the same done to Catholics who would not convert to C of E!  

I have Pagan, Wiccan, Christian, Jewish, Muslim and non believing friends. I value them all because to me it is character and personality that counts - not what they believe in. They are all good people as far as I am aware.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I brought my son up to question everything and never to believe just what he was told. I think it's good that kids get to see/hear things from all sides and make their own choices later in life. *


I allowed both my daughters to go to a church with a lady from up the road so that they could see what it was like and decide for themselves. They were 8 and 9 at the time. My eldest carried on and eventually settled on Baptists, becoming a Lay Preacher like LizWard. My youngest decided to be Agnostic, believing that there is 'something' but not sure what yet, lol.  I gave them the freedom to choose whereas had they been born into a stoutly religious family, they would possibly not have had that freedom until they were old enough to leave school etc! 

I am a non believer and I have NO problem with what others believe. It is just a shame that I am seemingly destined to go to the warm underground place because I don't, in some peoples' opinion. Oh well, at least I won't need my thermals and my coffee won't go cold!


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I wish more parents felt this way. I think that is much more healthy than indoctrinating a child into a faith - any faith.


*Exactly, never have i imposed my views/opinions on him and i think it allows his mind to develope. His brain/mind is exactly that...HIS.
If i had imposed my views on him i would be no better than a cult leader in my opinion. Fortunately he is a balanced lad with a great mind who can be respectful of others yet hold a healthy debate. I even admire the way he throws questions at me to which i don't have the answers. But at least he has a mind of his own and has not been moulded into something. *


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> I allowed both my daughters to go to a church with a lady from up the road so that they could see what it was like and decide for themselves. They were 8 and 9 at the time. My eldest carried on and eventually settled on Baptists, becoming a Lay Preacher like LizWard. My youngest decided to be Agnostic, believing that there is 'something' but not sure what yet, lol.  I gave them the freedom to choose whereas had they been born into a stoutly religious family, they would possibly not have had that freedom until they were old enough to leave school etc!
> 
> I am a non believer and I have NO problem with what others believe. It is just a shame that I am seemingly destined to go to the warm underground place because I don't, in some peoples' opinion. Oh well, at least I won't need my thermals and my coffee won't go cold!


*Sounds like you've done a great job with your children, something to be proud of. 
As for the warm underground place you're destined for....i'll meet ya there....lol..xx *


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> I HAVE, honestly I have. But it doesn't make sense, is full of holes and contradictions.


Which ones worry you in particular?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Odd that most churches use the KJV yet you say they are in the minority?


A tiny minority! You'd have to look in either the Plymouth Brethren or the most conservative of independent Evangelical churches to find regular use of the KJV - this has been the case for several decades now, I'd say since at least 1980 when the Alternative Service Book came out.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Rather, my argument is saying, "Your animal is identical to mine in every way; my animal is a dog, therefore your animal is a dog".


Since you have already admitted that there is no other religion that has the Son of God dying to save God's people from their sins, this is clearly incorrect even by your own admission.



> Lets just take one religion - the old religion of this country. The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspcts for its own. In the old religion there is Yule - when the sun god, the god of light, is born. In christianity we have Christmas, when the sun of God is born -and set at the same time of Yule even though the actual date of Christ's birth was somwhere around March time.


Well there are two issues here. 1. Christianity did not begin in England, and when it did begin, it spread first around the middle East, it would have taken much longer to reach England. Therefore there is no way that Christianity can have been based on any adaptation of the local English religions. 2. What actually happened - the Catholics are experts at this - was that the Catholics picked up on pagan festivals and "Christianized" them. In fact there is not one single commandment in the Bible to remember Jesus' birth at all.



> In the old religion there was Ostara, a festival of rebirth. In christianity we have Easter, when the son of God is reborn. I could go on, but I'm not here to lecture on the old religion - just to point out to you that you are wrong in your claims that christianity is unique.


Again, Christianity did not begin in England. You really should check your facts before wading into a discussion like this.



> It isn't. It isn't even the most widely-spread religion in the world.


Wrong again. Sorry, you need to do more research on this if you really intend to debate it.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> That's not the word of god - that was written by men who were afraid that the people wouold listen more to the wise women, the leaders of the old relgion, than to them. So they vilified them and made them into the witch caricature people think of today. They did the same with the horned god - they turned a nature deity into a fallen angel called Satan so that people would be frightened and look to them for protection, rather than the old religion. Then, just to make sure everyone was too afraid to do anything other then obey the new religion of christianity, they invented a place called hell to which everyone would go if they dared to think for themselves.


You have missed the point (apart from the fact that Christianity did not start in England) that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" comes from the Law of Moses, Sinai desert, about 1450BC.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> But to be fair, a lot of the ridiculing has been done by a christian lay preacher, who refuses to see any point of view other than her own narrow one.


Pointing out errors is not the same as ridicule.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well there are two issues here. 1. Christianity did not begin in England, and when it did begin, it spread first around the middle East, it would have taken much longer to reach England. Therefore there is no way that Christianity can have been based on any adaptation of the local English religions.


No-where in any of my replies to you have I said that christianity started in this country. I was talking about how it spread within this country. Stop twisitng things so that your set answers fit. In fact you yourself agree with what I say in your next sentence:



lizward said:


> 2. What actually happened - the Catholics are experts at this - was that the Catholics picked up on pagan festivals and "Christianized" them.


As I said, riding on the back of the old religion (ie altering and changing their creed to fit in with what was already believed here) was the only way christianity could spread in this country. You are, in this comment, actually agreeing with my earlier post.



lizward said:


> Again, Christianity did not begin in England. You really should check your facts before wading into a discussion like this.


Again, I never said this, so you really should answer what I did write rather than twisting my posts to something else so that you can trot out your set, learned-by-rote answers.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Pointing out errors is not the same as ridicule.
> 
> Liz


Sorry, but comments such as 


lizward said:


> Again, Christianity did not begin in England. You really should check your facts before wading into a discussion like this.


to someone who did not even say that Christianity began in England is not correcting errors. It is a failed attempt at ridicule - failed because a) you tried to pretend I said something I didn't and b) because you then went on to an "explanation" that was actually merely a reiteration of what I had posted in the first place.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> You have missed the point (apart from the fact that Christianity did not start in England) that "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" comes from the Law of Moses, Sinai desert, about 1450BC.
> 
> Liz


You are fixated on this christianity did not start in England bit, aren't you? Even though it is something I never said? Do you think that if you repeat it often enough, it will become true?

The original quote from the bible (before the King James version) is in Exodus 22:18 - and said thou shalt not suffer a _poisoner_ to live. not a _witch_. James I was notorious for being paranoid about witches and translated the original word _chasaph_ - which is Hebrew for poisoner - to mean witch instead.

So no, I have not missed any point. But you have. And I think you need to take your own advice and check your facts before wading into a discussion like this.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Pointing out errors is not the same as ridicule.
> 
> Liz


True,if you was just point out which you are not.
Your tone is that of ridicule & most people find that offence,you seem very high & mighty.
comments like god just is,& oh for goodness sake is not a good way of debating..it is a way to avoid debating as you dont know the answer or you dont want to answer..i asked where did i come from you did in your reply try to ridicule me when you clearly understood the question.
I have no problem with any religion in fact as a questioner of most things i do infact like to me told things that i may otherwise not know its always good to learn even if we do not agree.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Correct, and no there isn't.
> 
> Liz


That of course is your intepretation & belief
YOU cannot make that statement as you dont know the true answer as in experience you only think its right through your faith...you may very well be wrong


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> No, there is only one God.
> 
> No.
> 
> Liz


you dont know what the age exemption is liz?
Here let me help you 
Baptists reject the baptism of infants (paedobaptism) and baptismal regeneration. A local church is made up only of those who have by faith trusting in Jesus Christ's shed blood alone for their salvation and who have made a public professions of faith and been scripturally baptized. (Acts 2:41-42) An infant is not capable of believing, and is protected by the Grace of God until the age of accountability, and baptism is not necessary for salvation and has no saving properties.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawksport View Post
So you could spend your whole life doing nothing but good but because you don't believe in God you get to spend eternity in hell?
That's a harsh sentence, is there any chance of an appeal hearing?

Correct, and no there isn't.

Liz

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1) No church or individual has the authority to forgive sins or grant intercession to God. 
you cannot say that will be true..as above you do not have that authority only one person has that,so while you can say i believe such & such which is fair the way you come across is that you know all.


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

*I have a question if anyone can answer it? In the link below are given several Christ-like figures that pre-date Jesus...so i would like to know how can such similarities be, if Jesus is said to be the real one? No offence intended but im genuinely curious.

10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus - Top 10 Lists | Listverse*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> No-where in any of my replies to you have I said that christianity started in this country. I was talking about how it spread within this country.


How else should I understand your comments about it being based on local religions when you are in the UK?? 



> As I said, riding on the back of the old religion (ie altering and changing their creed to fit in with what was already believed here) was the only way christianity could spread in this country.


But no Christian doctrines were changed - UK Christians believe the same things as Christians elsewhere in the world and always have done.



> Again, I never said this, so you really should answer what I did write rather than twisting my posts to something else so that you can trot out your set, learned-by-rote answers.


1. Perhaps you need to make yourself clearer, or think things through before you post

2. I explained at the outset that I have studied theology to the level required for ordination (I am in fact in my third year of a theology degree, I also have a Post Graduate qualification in Church History). You don't get those by rote learning. Not yet anyway 

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> The original quote from the bible (before the King James version) is in Exodus 22:18 - and said thou shalt not suffer a _poisoner_ to live. not a _witch_. James I was notorious for being paranoid about witches and translated the original word _chasaph_ - which is Hebrew for poisoner - to mean witch instead.


This is simply false and once again, you need to check your facts before posting. Wycliffe (1395), Tyndale (1534), Miles Coverdale (1535), Bishops (1568) and Geneva (1587) all use the word "witch". The KJV was translated in 1611.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> True,if you was just point out which you are not.
> Your tone is that of ridicule & most people find that offence,you seem very high & mighty.
> comments like god just is,& oh for goodness sake is not a good way of debating..it is a way to avoid debating as you dont know the answer or you dont want to answer..i asked where did i come from you did in your reply try to ridicule me when you clearly understood the question.
> I have no problem with any religion in fact as a questioner of most things i do infact like to me told things that i may otherwise not know its always good to learn even if we do not agree.


You are reading the ridicule in, it isn't there.

It would be worth reading over this thread and seeing what the unbiased say about which way the ridicule is going.

How would you expect anyone on PF to answer a question like "where did I come from"? That may not have been what you meant but it was what you said.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> That of course is your intepretation & belief


Of course it is my belief. That is what is under discussion. I do not feel the need to qualify every single sentence with "the Bible says" or "Christians have always believed".

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> you dont know what the age exemption is liz?


I know the doctrine. I was asked what the age is. I said I didn't know. It would not be the same for everyone.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1) No church or individual has the authority to forgive sins or grant intercession to God.
> you cannot say that will be true..as above you do not have that authority only one person has that,so while you can say i believe such & such which is fair the way you come across is that you know all.


I am not sure what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting that John is teaching here that there is a second chance after death? That was the question I was asked.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I have a question if anyone can answer it? In the link below are given several Christ-like figures that pre-date Jesus...so i would like to know how can such similarities be, if Jesus is said to be the real one? No offence intended but im genuinely curious.
> 
> 10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus - Top 10 Lists | Listverse*


This sounds fairly desperate to me. There is a lot of research to be done there and I am too busy to do that today. A couple of obvious preliminary questions though: how are Galilean working men in the first century supposed to have found out about all these figures so that they could base Christ on them? And why, if Christ was based on any of them, would his teaching be so vastly different?

Liz


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

lizward said:


> This sounds fairly desperate to me. There is a lot of research to be done there and I am too busy to do that today. A couple of obvious preliminary questions though: how are Galilean working men in the first century supposed to have found out about all these figures so that they could base Christ on them? And why, if Christ was based on any of them, would his teaching be so vastly different?
> 
> Liz


*Nothing desperate about a genuine question. If you're unable to answer it then fine, just have the decency to say so without the sarcasm. As for your statement about 'how working men in the first century based these figures on christ'...surely it's the other way round? It has later been noticed that earlier figures have a similar story to that of Christ. *


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> How else should I understand your comments about it being based on local religions when you are in the UK??


You could try reading what I write - which was about the spread of christianity in the Uk and not about it beginning in the UK



lizward said:


> But no Christian doctrines were changed - UK Christians believe the same things as Christians elsewhere in the world and always have done.
> Liz


Really? So Christmas and Easter were celebrated in the middle east 2000 years ago, were they?

For someone keen on facts, you certainly don't mind twisting them if they don't actaully fit.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> This is simply false and once again, you need to check your facts before posting. Tyndale (1395), Miles Coverdale (1535), Bishops (1568) and Geneva (1587) all use the word "witch". The KJV was translated in 1611.
> 
> Liz


Wrong. This is the truth:

Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live...?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I have a question if anyone can answer it? In the link below are given several Christ-like figures that pre-date Jesus...so i would like to know how can such similarities be, if Jesus is said to be the real one? No offence intended but im genuinely curious.
> 
> 10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus - Top 10 Lists | Listverse*


*I found that link most interesting,but got totaly confused (which is easy).
But the bottom line is,if these stories pre date Jesus,i need to rethink my beliefs.*


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well the answer to that one is quite simple. He doesn't.
> 
> Liz


well he shouldnt have given us superiorty complex over everything then should he

but lets face it its Man who wrote the Bible and elevated us to this position, weve been preached to that we have a soul and all other animals are souless, we're told to go forth and multiply until the planet can no longer support our ever growing populations and all other creatures are pushed to the brink,

beliefs like christianity have done so much damage to our environment because they seperate us from the rest of the natural world, imo the Native Americans had it right ..everything has a spirit and so the earth all living things are treated with respect.... and we are part of the web of life.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I take your point Suzy; we should all honour each other's beliefs, respect them not ridicule them. But to be fair, a lot of the ridiculing has been done by a christian lay preacher, who refuses to see any point of view other than her own narrow one. It is what she believes, and good for her for standing up for her beliefs. However, anyone who states something like this on an open forum has to accept that there will be people who will disagree, people who will be angry at her dismissal of their beliefs, and people who will want to point out to her where they think she is wrong.


Yes - I dont believe either side should try and force their beliefs onto each other  for me religion is a personal thing and however much people argue/debate it prob wont change anyones views - just a pity it cannot be debated in a courteous manner so as not to offend either side but then they say religion and politics are two debates that will never go down well lol


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Wrong. This is the truth:
> 
> Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live...?


Repeating a factual error does not make it true.

"Witch" appears in Wycliffe, Tyndale, Bishops, Miles Coverdale and Geneva, in Exodus 18:22. All of these predate the KJV.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Nothing desperate about a genuine question.


I meant it was the article that was desperate, not your question.



> As for your statement about 'how working men in the first century based these figures on christ'...surely it's the other way round?


Yes. Read my post again. Now, how do you think 1st century working men in Palestine would have gained knowledge of those religions?

As for the article itself, it will have to wait, I am simply too busy today.

Liz


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Yes - I dont believe either side should try and force their beliefs onto each other  for me religion is a personal thing and however much people argue/debate it prob wont change anyones views - just a pity it cannot be debated in a courteous manner so as not to offend either side but then they say religion and politics are two debates that will never go down well lol


But it isn't is it? 
Not so much nowadays admittedly,but in the recent past we were all restricted by Christian dogma whether we liked it or not.Sunday trading for instance.
There are still 26 bishops in the House of Lords influencing how we live.

And as mentioned on the Halal thread we are more and more being fed meat that has been killed in what most of us think is an inhuman manner.

Whether we believe or not, we are still all affected by religion in one way or another.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> *I brought my son up to question everything and never to believe just what he was told. I think it's good that kids get to see/hear things from all sides and make their own choices later in life. *


so i do hence why i do it, My children although young know many things some are made more age apporiate, and as they get older we will explain more. I dont often lie to my children the only "lies" i say is santa (although mummy and daddy ahve to give him the money for the toys1) and the tooth fairy.

Hopefully as the grow up they will became balanced open minded Adults.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Really? So Christmas and Easter were celebrated in the middle east 2000 years ago, were they?


No, but they were celebrated in the rest of the Christian world from the fourth century. Do you have any evidence that they were first celebrated in Britain?

Incidentally there is no commandment in the new testament to celebrate either of them.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

poohdog said:


> But it isn't is it?
> Not so much nowadays admittedly,but in the recent past we were all restricted by Christian dogma whether we liked it or not.Sunday trading for instance.
> There are still 26 bishops in the House of Lords influencing how we live.
> 
> ...


Im not saying it doesnt affect things obviously it does although sunday trading has now been in place for many years- what I meant as being personal is a persons "beliefs" how they pray, how they deal with religion in their life etc.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> I am not sure what you are getting at here. Are you suggesting that John is teaching here that there is a second chance after death? That was the question I was asked.
> 
> Liz


I already answered that for you. re-read it.


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## toria (Aug 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> You are reading the ridicule in, it isn't there.
> 
> It would be worth reading over this thread and seeing what the unbiased say about which way the ridicule is going.
> 
> ...


You knew perfectly well what i meant...as if any grown person would not know the immediate answer to that,but then you do answer as though we are all children as i have said you do ridicule in the way you answer,why i do not know & certainly wouldnt want to
The way you talk to people reminded me of a child i used to look after,when i asked him to move his bowl. He hadent moved it so i asked why he said oh it isent a bowl its a dish i didnt know what you meant.
So i shall be more specific when i ask a question.
After adam who came next & so on.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> No, but they were celebrated in the rest of the Christian world from the fourth century. Do you have any evidence that they were first celebrated in Britain?
> 
> Incidentally there is no commandment in the new testament to celebrate either of them.
> 
> Liz


You make me so cross - you totally ignore everything I write and just follow your own agenda. Read the following very carefully please:

I DID NOT SAY CHRISTMAS WAS FIRST CELEBRATED IN BRITAIN.

Please read that and understand it, because I do not know how to put it any more clearly. Just to jog your mind, this is what I DID say:



Spellweaver said:


> Lets just take one religion - the old religion of this country. The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspcts for its own. In the old religion there is Yule - when the sun god, the god of light, is born. In christianity we have Christmas, when the sun of God is born -and set at the same time of Yule even though the actual date of Christ's birth was somwhere around March time. In the old religion there was Ostara, a festival of rebirth. In christianity we have Easter, when the son of God is reborn. I could go on, but I'm not here to lecture on the old religion - just to point out to you that you are wrong in your claims that christianity is unique..
> .


See, no mention of christianity starting in Britain, or christmas first being celebrated in Britain. Your insistance in twisting things to suit your own agenda is doing neither you nor your religion any favours.

As for evidence about similar festivals to christmas being celebrated before the christians took it for their own "unique" festival, there is much too much evidence to post here. But I will post this very interesting link:

The Origins of the Yule Season

Lots of evidence for you there, but what do you make of this? (quoted directly from the link)

_An ancient Chaldean astrological myth from Babylonia has the entire nativity symbolism within it. It was claimed that at nightfall on what is now December 24th, one can see three prominent stars in the sky, the three that make up the belt in the constellation Orion. A line drawn through these three stars in an easterly direction will come to a point on the horizon that the ancients in 2000 BC called Aptah, the cradle or crib. It marks the exact spot that in a few days, the brightest star of the winter skies, Sirius, will emerge from its long hiding below the winter horizon. The place of emergence of Sirius is the same place that the sun will make its appearance at dawn. This place of the emergence of the newborn sun is in the foreground of the constellation Virgo, the virgin, with the constellations Taurus the Bull, and Capricorn the Goat are nearby. They knew this area as the stable, because of the proximity of these constellations represented by herd animals. And do we have the whole story spread out before us - the three wanderers, pointing the way to the brightest star, marking the birthplace of a newborn sun overseen by a virgin and located in a celestial stable_

Well, well, well! December 24th, three wanderers, a bright star in the east, a stable, a cradle, a virgin - and all happening 2000 years before christ was supposed to have been born. Hmmmm! Borrowed the whole lot and then called it their own, those crafty christians!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> imo the Native Americans had it right ..everything has a spirit and so the earth all living things are treated with respect.... and we are part of the web of life.


If only more people realised this, Noushka, what a better place the world would be.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> None of these people prayed to the Christian God.
> 
> Liz





Spellweaver said:


> Oh well, that's all right then. He doesn't have to save mankind, only those who worship him. Bit selfish of a deity, to have all that power and only use it for those who make him feel good by pandering to his whims, don't you think?





lizward said:


> He is not obliged to save ANYBODY.
> 
> Liz





Spellweaver said:


> Hmmm. If I breed a dog (which is the nearest I can get to creating life) then I would feel obliged to make sure that dog lived a happy life, and would also feel obliged to rescue and save that dog the very second I heard it was being hurt by someone else. If I didn't behave in this way, people would - rightly so - castigate me for being a bad breeder. So can we therefore castigate god for being a bad "breeder" when he doesn't feel obliged to take care of his creations?


Just bumping up this part of the discussion, which raised some interesting points that you've not yet answered Liz. If God creates, then does not feel obliged to take care of his creation, is he a "bad breeder"?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

toria said:


> I already answered that for you. re-read it.


I didn't understand it at all. You seemed to be suggesting that people get a second chance after death and you attempted to prove it by posting something about confessing our sins. I am not sure what connection you see. If you would care to spell it out in black and white I will try to address it.

Liz


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I will read back on all posts but just wanted to say i am an Atheist.....i have my (plenty!) reasons for being this way.

Not quite sure what the arguing is about though 

As believing in God in just that.....BELIEVING. Its not a fact. Its a belief.

I respect others beliefs, just as most of them respect mine....thats enough for me! I choose to believe there is no such thing and its all.....yeah!

Yet others truly have faith in it. Its OK on both sides to do so! No one should feel bad or angered that some others do not feel the same as long as you are true to yourself


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> You make me so cross - you totally ignore everything I write and just follow your own agenda. Read the following very carefully please:


If you find your posts being misunderstood to this extent, perhaps you need to read them before hitting the submit button. You claimed that Christianity was based on the old religion (in Britain) and the evidence you gave for that was the date of Christmas.

Now, have you acknowledged that your religion is promoting a factual error regarding the translation of Exodus 22:18?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Just bumping up this part of the discussion, which raised some interesting points that you've not yet answered Liz. If God creates, then does not feel obliged to take care of his creation, is he a "bad breeder"?


God is not a breeder. This is an irrelevant line of questioning as far as I can see. What are you getting at?

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> God is not a breeder. This is an irrelevant line of questioning as far as I can see. What are you getting at?
> 
> Liz


I'm getting at the fact that according to you, God is not obliged to look after the beings he creates. The nearest thing we can get to that on this earth is a breeder not being responsible for the animals they breed. We would castigate such a breeder - so why would we worship such a god?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

lizward said:


> God is not a breeder. This is an irrelevant line of questioning as far as I can see. What are you getting at?
> 
> Liz


Then what is he?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> If you find your posts being misunderstood to this extent, perhaps you need to read them before hitting the submit button. You claimed that Christianity was based on the old religion (in Britain) and the evidence you gave for that was the date of Christmas.


No - I claimed that christianity in britain took over the festivals of the old religion in order to spread. My very words were "The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspects for its own." I then gave you two examples of where this had happened - namely Christmas (which took a piggy back ride on Yule) and Easter (which did the same with Ostara) It all is written clearly enough - you must be the only person on this thread who cannot understand it, and if you are unable to understand such clarity, then the fault lies with you.



lizward said:


> Now, have you acknowledged that your religion is promoting a factual error regarding the translation of Exodus 22:18?
> Liz


Ermmm - my religion? And which religion would that be then? Nowhere on this thread have I sated a belief in any religion. As for the translation of Exodus 22:18 - I believe you have it wrong and have posted proof which you choose to pretend is wrong. Hmm.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I'm getting at the fact that according to you, God is not obliged to look after the beings he creates. The nearest thing we can get to that on this earth is a breeder not being responsible for the animals they breed. We would castigate such a breeder - so why would we worship such a god?


Well, let me ask you this. Would you actually want God to treat you the way you treat your breeding animals? Love and care are one thing, but restrictions are another, aren't they?

The bottom line is that you have free will and so does everyone else. So God does not intervene to stop you doing bad things. And likewise, he doesn't intervene to stop people doing bad things to you - unless you are one of His children. You are obliged to take care of your own children, not everyone else's. Similarly, God takes care of His own children. If you want Him to take care of you, you need to become one of His children.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> Then what is he?


He is God!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> No - I claimed that christianity in britain took over the festivals of the old religion in order to spread. My very words were "The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspects for its own." I then gave you two examples of where this had happened - namely Christmas (which took a piggy back ride on Yule) and Easter (which did the same with Ostara) It all is written clearly enough - you must be the only person on this thread who cannot understand it, and if you are unable to understand such clarity, then the fault lies with you.


And I told you that Christmas was celebrated elsewhere. Are you in fact claiming that it was first celebrated on Dec 25th in Britian. or are you not claiming that? If it was already being celebrated elsewhere, on what grounds are you suggesting that it the festival had to be invented for Britain? Either you are not thinking straight or you really are expressing yourself very badly.



> Ermmm - my religion? And which religion would that be then?


Paganism - aka Wicca. That is where you are getting your "evidence" from, is it not? The last "evidence" you gave was a slab of text from some sort of Pagan leader with not one single citation of any academic research.



> As for the translation of Exodus 22:18 - I believe you have it wrong and have posted proof which you choose to pretend is wrong.


And this is my THIRD post that points out the fundamental error in this Wiccan argument. The claim was made that it was on King James' instructions that the word was translated as "witch" and that it should really be "poisonner". Apart from the fact that you will find not one single Hebrew lexicon that gives "poisoner" as a possible translation (but feel free to try), I have stated that Wycliffe, Miles Coverdale, Bishops and Geneva all used the word "witch" in Ex 22:18 and that they all predate the KJV. You have so far failed to acknowledge that fact. Do you dispute it or are you going to admit that your source is incorrect?

Liz


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well, let me ask you this. Would you actually want God to treat you the way you treat your breeding animals? Love and care are one thing, but restrictions are another, aren't they?
> 
> The bottom line is that you have free will and so does everyone else. So God does not intervene to stop you doing bad things. And likewise, he doesn't intervene to stop people doing bad things to you - unless you are one of His children. You are obliged to take care of your own children, not everyone else's. Similarly, God takes care of His own children. If you want Him to take care of you, you need to become one of His children.
> 
> Liz


*Sorry but i can't see this.Are you saying then,that of all the people that have died,say through natural disasters none would have been gods children?*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *Sorry but i can't see this.Are you saying then,that of all the people that have died,say through natural disasters none would have been gods children?*


No, but I can see why you might think that was what I was saying. I'll try again.

There are two things that need to be kept in mind:

1. Death is not the end
2. The Bible recognises no "half way house". Those who are Christ's are God's people (God's children). Those who are not, aren't.

God promises to keep His people. He makes no promise to keep any who are not his people. If a parent is in a playground, that parent is responsible for her own children there, but not for anyone else's (unless she is in loco parentis, but that doesn't apply with God).

Because death is not the end, God's primary purpose has nothing to do with physical preservation for its own sake. His protection of His children may include physical preservation - I am convinced that He will protect me until the time He has decreed for my death (and no, before anyone asks, that doesn't give me the right to engage in deliberate risk taking just to prove the point), but that is not the primary aim.

When people die, we have no way of knowing, simply from the fact that they have died, whether or not that person was a child of God. Everyone dies. You could die at the age of 5 and be a child of God, you could die at the age of 120 and not be a child of God.

Does that make more sense?

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

So if there is no way of knowing when a person dies if they are a child of God - why be a child of god?? - this is the part of religion that always confuses me lol -  I personally think God loves All people.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

so if death isnt the end for gods children do they go on to heaven? Our thier souls "moved" onto be with God? 

is death the end for people who arent gods children where do they go? hell? or a no mans place?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> So if there is no way of knowing when a person dies if they are a child of God - why be a child of god?? - this is the part of religion that always confuses me lol -  I personally think God loves All people.


What I meant was, if you hear of 100 people dying in some tragedy, there is no way to know how many of them were or were not children of God. You absolutely can know for yourself and you can have a pretty good idea for someone else. For example, if someone has clearly lived a Christ-centred life, you can be pretty sure he is a child of God. Conversely if someone dies denying that God exists, you can be pretty sure that he is not!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Daynna said:


> so if death isnt the end for gods children do they go on to heaven? Our thier souls "moved" onto be with God?


For those who die in Christ, yes, their souls pass immediately into the presence of Christ. However the Christian hope contains more than this, it also contains the hope of the resurrection of the body at the end of time. The state immediately after death is not the eternal state.



> is death the end for people who arent gods children where do they go? hell? or a no mans place?


Hell.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> What I meant was, if you hear of 100 people dying in some tragedy, there is no way to know how many of them were or were not children of God. You absolutely can know for yourself and you can have a pretty good idea for someone else. For example, if someone has clearly lived a Christ-centred life, you can be pretty sure he is a child of God. Conversely if someone dies denying that God exists, you can be pretty sure that he is not!
> 
> Liz


Right got ya - but even those that do not believe if they are confess all their sins then god will accept them is that not correct?


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> For those who die in Christ, yes, their souls pass immediately into the presence of Christ. However the Christian hope contains more than this, it also contains the hope of the resurrection of the body at the end of time. The state immediately after death is not the eternal state.
> 
> Hell.
> 
> Liz


So if someone dies who doesn't believe in god but who has lived a fulfilling life, helping others and staying lawful, goes to hell???

I really have a problem with this heaven/hell malarkey, I don't believe in these places, I believe that we end up in an afterlife... I also believe that through life we learn lessons, if the lesson isn't learnt, then we keep coming back until we do.

But anyway, whatever you or I believe in it's all academic until we actually die and find out for sure, you or I can't say as fact that these things happen.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Right got ya - but even those that do not believe if they are confess all their sins then god will accept them is that not correct?


Sorry I don't understand the question. Please could you reword it?

LIz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MissShelley said:


> So if someone dies who doesn't believe in god but who has lived a fulfilling life, helping others and staying lawful, goes to hell???


Yes. You see, according to the Bible, salvation is not a matter of good works but only of faith in Jesus Christ. The good works follow but they do not actually save anyone. You can;t ever be good enough for God, he accepts the repentant sinner because of His grace, not because that sinner has any merit, the sinner has no other claim on God's mercy at all.

Liz


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I really did not want to get into this debate. I believe religion to be a matter of personal conscience but how on Earth can anyone believe that those Catholic priests who have abused children will to Heaven? They professedly live their lives devoted to God and Jesus Christ and presumably will take the sacrament as they die and confess their sins, therefore dying in Christ according to their teaching. Does that give them an automatic 'pass' into Heaven?
Quote:For those who die in Christ, yes, their souls pass immediately into the presence of Christ.
And what happened to those who died before the birth of Christ, and those who lived or still live in places, where they word of Christ has not reached, who could not know of his teaching? Are they also in Hell?


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

lizward said:


> Yes. You see, according to the Bible, salvation is not a matter of good works but only of faith in Jesus Christ. The good works follow but they do not actually save anyone. You can;t ever be good enough for God, he accepts the repentant sinner because of His grace, not because that sinner has any merit, the sinner has no other claim on God's mercy at all.
> 
> Liz


Oh, right... Ok, so a sinner isn't someone who has done something wrong he is someone who doesn't believe in god? Well I don't believe a bar of that, I have my own beliefs but each to their own


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> I really did not want to get into this debate. I believe religion to be a matter of personal conscience but how on Earth can anyone believe that those Catholic priests who have abused children will to Heaven? They professedly live their lives devoted to God and Jesus Christ and presumably will take the sacrament as they die and confess their sins, therefore dying in Christ according to their teaching. Does that give them an automatic 'pass' into Heaven?


Well, I am not a Catholic and I am not going to defend the Catholic church in this (incidentally, they do not believe they go straight to heaven when they die, they believe they go to purgatory first.

But that aside, there is absolutely no sin that is too bad for God to forgive IF that sinner has turned to Christ. You see, every sin committed by all who trust in Christ was paid for by Christ on the cross. All of them. The whole lot. Without exception. That is what makes the Gospel such an astoundingly wonderful thing.

On the other hand, simply taking the bread and wine and saying a few words is not the same thing as turning to Christ. Words don't impress God. He looks at the heart and He looks fro true repentance.



> And what happened to those who died before the birth of Christ, and those who lived or still live in places, where they word of Christ has not reached, who could not know of his teaching? Are they also in Hell?


Christians differ on this one.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

MissShelley said:


> Oh, right... Ok, so a sinner isn't someone who has done something wrong he is someone who doesn't believe in god? Well I don't believe a bar of that, I have my own beliefs but each to their own


You're close but not exactly right. A sinner is simply any descendant of Adam. We sin because we are sinners, not the other way round. Every human being who has ever lived or will ever lived is a sinner, with the sole exception being Jesus Christ.

The first commandment is about having no other gods but God. In other words, worshipping a false god, or failing to worship God at all, is breaking the first commandment.

Liz


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well, I am not a Catholic and I am not going to defend the Catholic church in this (incidentally, they do not believe they go straight to heaven when they die, they believe they go to purgatory first.
> 
> But that aside, there is absolutely no sin that is too bad for God to forgive IF that sinner has turned to Christ. You see, every sin committed by all who trust in Christ was paid for by Christ on the cross. All of them. The whole lot. Without exception. That is what makes the Gospel such an astoundingly wonderful thing.
> 
> ...


Fascinating. As with all things, religious or otherwise, it seems as if there is no single answer to all the questions. Catholics fervently believe in their version of the truth (I am married to a very lapsed Catholic and know about Purgatory etc.) as much as you believe in yours.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

So in this god's eyes if you're a repentant paedophile who believes.... You'll get into heaven. But a moral, decent person who has lead a loving, caring and selfless life but doesn't believe will go to hell? Would this be right?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

jenniferx said:


> So in this god's eyes if you're a repentant paedophile who believes.... You'll get into heaven. But a moral, decent person who has lead a loving, caring and selfless life but doesn't believe will go to hell? Would this be right?


Absolutely right. There is no sin, I repeat, no sin, that is too bad for God to forgive.

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> Sorry I don't understand the question. Please could you reword it?
> 
> LIz


Well from what Ive been told - IF you dont believe in god you are a sinner but if you repent all your sins ie give yourself to God - say on your deathbed then that means you are saved?? this is the thing about religion that confuses me and where it becomes double standards for me.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted by jenniferx
> So in this god's eyes if you're a repentant paedophile who believes.... You'll get into heaven. But a moral, decent person who has lead a loving, caring and selfless life but doesn't believe will go to hell? Would this be right?





> Absolutely right. There is no sin, I repeat, no sin, that is too bad for God to forgive.


Well then, this heaven sounds like it's is going to look suspiciously like the nonce wing in Whitemoor....

Think I'll pass.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

jenniferx said:


> Well then, this heaven sounds like it's is going to look suspiciously like the nonce wing in Whitemoor....
> 
> Think I'll pass.


There is no sin in heaven.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Well from what Ive been told - IF you dont believe in god you are a sinner but if you repent all your sins ie give yourself to God - say on your deathbed then that means you are saved?? this is the thing about religion that confuses me and where it becomes double standards for me.


Yes that is correct. Thank you for clarifying. There's no double standard at all, the same standard applies to everyone.

The repentance does of course have to be genuine, a mere form of words said as a fire insurance policy won't cut it with God!

Liz


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> _An ancient Chaldean astrological myth from Babylonia has the entire nativity symbolism within it. It was claimed that at nightfall on what is now December 24th, one can see three prominent stars in the sky, the three that make up the belt in the constellation Orion. A line drawn through these three stars in an easterly direction will come to a point on the horizon that the ancients in 2000 BC called Aptah, the cradle or crib. It marks the exact spot that in a few days, the brightest star of the winter skies, Sirius, will emerge from its long hiding below the winter horizon. The place of emergence of Sirius is the same place that the sun will make its appearance at dawn. This place of the emergence of the newborn sun is in the foreground of the constellation Virgo, the virgin, with the constellations Taurus the Bull, and Capricorn the Goat are nearby. They knew this area as the stable, because of the proximity of these constellations represented by herd animals. And do we have the whole story spread out before us - the three wanderers, pointing the way to the brightest star, marking the birthplace of a newborn sun overseen by a virgin and located in a celestial stable_
> 
> Well, well, well! December 24th, three wanderers, a bright star in the east, a stable, a cradle, a virgin - and all happening 2000 years before christ was supposed to have been born. Hmmmm! Borrowed the whole lot and then called it their own, those crafty christians!


now this is fascinating lol



Spellweaver said:


> If only more people realised this, Noushka, what a better place the world would be.


it most certainly would.... if there is any 'God' i believe its just how he would want it to be ... i think religeous people have wasted too much energy trying to get into heaven and given no care or respect for what they have here on earth with regards to the natural world.



jenniferx said:


> Well then, this heaven sounds like it's is going to look suspiciously like the nonce wing in Whitemoor....
> 
> Think I'll pass.


blimey me too plus there wont be any of my beloved pets or any animals there because apparently they dont have a soul....so it deffo wouldnt be any sort of Heaven for me anyway.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> Yes that is correct. Thank you for clarifying. There's no double standard at all, the same standard applies to everyone.
> 
> The repentance does of course have to be genuine, a mere form of words said as a fire insurance policy won't cut it with God!
> 
> Liz


Yeah but thats where it puzzles me cos someone can be a complete pig all their life and then repent at the last minute - :frown: but I guess thats what god is all about - he will forgive anyone anything if they repent.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Yeah but thats where it puzzles me cos someone can be a complete pig all their life and then repent at the last minute - :frown: but I guess thats what god is all about - he will forgive anyone anything if they repent.


That is the whole point of the cross. Jesus Christ died in the place of sinners taking the punishment due to them. Meanwhile those who trust in him are given His righteousness. There is an exchange that takes place at the point of conversion, at the point when someone leaves the kingdom of darkness and becomes a citizen of the kingdom of God. Their sin is exchanged for Christ's righteousness.

Liz


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

lizward said:


> That is the whole point of the cross. Jesus Christ died in the place of sinners taking the punishment due to them. Meanwhile those who trust in him are given His righteousness. *There is an exchange that takes place at the point of conversion, at the point when someone leaves the kingdom of darkness and becaomes a citizen of the kingdom of God.*  Their sin is exchanged for Christ's righteousness.
> 
> Liz


I may not agree with it but that is the clearest way, of putting across the Christian message, that I have heard.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Thank you!

Liz


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

Well done Liz...over 400 posts on tooth fairies and ghosties....You'll be on X files next.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

poohdog said:


> Well done Liz...over 400 posts on tooth fairies and ghosties....You'll be on X files next.


I admit I have been rather surprised at the popularity of the thread 

Liz


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lizward said:


> I admit I have been rather surprised at the popularity of the thread
> 
> Liz


:lol::lol: You have deffo hung in there :thumbsup:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

jenniferx said:


> Well then, this heaven sounds like it's is going to look suspiciously like the nonce wing in Whitemoor....
> 
> Think I'll pass.


Me too


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> And I told you that Christmas was celebrated elsewhere. Are you in fact claiming that it was first celebrated on Dec 25th in Britian. or are you not claiming that? If it was already being celebrated elsewhere, on what grounds are you suggesting that it the festival had to be invented for Britain? Either you are not thinking straight or you really are expressing yourself very badly.


How can the words "The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspects for its own" possibly mean that I am claiming that Christmas was first celebrated on December 25th in Britain? It may seem peculiar to you, but if I write the words, _"The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspects for its own", _then what I actually mean is "_The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspects for its own"_. I don't mean Christianity was first introduced in Britain, or that christmas was first celebrated in Britain, or that britain was the first country to celebrate christmas on december 25th, or any of the other nonsense you have accused those few very simple words of meaning. The words mean exactly what they say. I am not expressing myself badly at all. Either you have some sort of reading difficulty, or you are deliberately twisting things to divert from the truth. I wrote exactly what I meant - and, if you still haven't read it properly, or still haven't understood it properly, here it is again in big purple letters:

"The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspects for its own"


Plain enough for you now? 



lizward said:


> Paganism - aka Wicca. That is where you are getting your "evidence" from, is it not? The last "evidence" you gave was a slab of text from some sort of Pagan leader with not one single citation of any academic research.


For someone supposedly studying theology your ignorance is appalling - or are you only studying christian theology? Paganism does not mean Wicca. Wicca does not mean paganism. The two terms are not interchangeable. Paganism is a blanket term for polytheistic religions, of which Wicca is one. Wiccan and witch are sometimes used to mean the same thing but, in fact, whilst all wiccans are witches, not all witches are wiccans. Wicca is a very specific religion, and a lot of witches prefer to be solitary witches rather than participate in religious rituals.

Read more about it and expand your knowledge here:
What is Paganism



lizward said:


> And this is my THIRD post that points out the fundamental error in this Wiccan argument. The claim was made that it was on King James' instructions that the word was translated as "witch" and that it should really be "poisonner". Apart from the fact that you will find not one single Hebrew lexicon that gives "poisoner" as a possible translation (but feel free to try), I have stated that Wycliffe, Miles Coverdale, Bishops and Geneva all used the word "witch" in Ex 22:18 and that they all predate the KJV. You have so far failed to acknowledge that fact. Do you dispute it or are you going to admit that your source is incorrect?
> 
> Liz


No. Put it this way, you are saying one thing and I am saying the other. I have cited historical proof for my stance. You just expect your stance to be taken as right because you say it is. Sorry. (Shrugs)


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well, let me ask you this. Would you actually want God to treat you the way you treat your breeding animals? Love and care are one thing, but restrictions are another, aren't they?


If god treated people the way I treat my animals, the world would be a much happier place!



lizward said:


> he doesn't intervene to stop people doing bad things to you - unless you are one of His children. You are obliged to take care of your own children, not everyone else's. Similarly, God takes care of His own children.
> Liz


You have contradicted yourself here. In an earlier post you said god was not obliged to take care of anybody. Now which do you really believe? That he is not obliged to take care of anybody, or that he is obliged to take care of his children?


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> For someone supposedly studying theology your ignorance is appalling - or are you only studying christian theology? Paganism does not mean Wicca. Wicca does not mean paganism. The two terms are not interchangeable. Paganism is a blanket term for polytheistic religions, of which Wicca is one. Wiccan and witch are sometimes used to mean the same thing but, in fact, whilst all wiccans are witches, not all witches are wiccans. Wicca is a very specific religion, and a lot of witches prefer to be solitary witches rather than participate in religious rituals.


That is very true  I'm a Wiccan but not a witch, I don't practice magik.. I'm also solitary (eclectic) to the point where not even my OH really knows what I do  it's a personal thing..


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Daynna said:


> so if death isnt the end for gods children do they go on to heaven? Our thier souls "moved" onto be with God?
> 
> is death the end for people who arent gods children where do they go? hell? or a no mans place?





lizward said:


> Hell.
> 
> Liz


So christians would have us believe. However, the rest of the world knows this is not true. It is merely something made up by christians to frighten people into worshipping their god.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

jenniferx said:


> So in this god's eyes if you're a repentant paedophile who believes.... You'll get into heaven. But a moral, decent person who has lead a loving, caring and selfless life but doesn't believe will go to hell? Would this be right?


Only in the christian faith. Other faiths, thankfully, are not as extreme as this, and value spirituality and morality more than fawning over a god.

Imagine a still-born baby - how more innocent and pure could that soul be? Yet according to christians that soul will burn in hell for eternity becuse the poor little still-born baby did not get a chance to repent for sins not even committed by the baby, but by some man and woman millions of years ago. And yet a paedophile can spend his life abusing children, say a few hailmarys, and be welcomed into heaven with open arms.

What kind of deity would decree that? And if heaven is full of that kind of person, who on earth would want to live there for eternity?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> And I told you that Christmas was celebrated elsewhere.


Ermmm - no, I told you! And so far you have ignored it. But here it is again 



Spellweaver said:


> As for evidence about similar festivals to christmas being celebrated before the christians took it for their own "unique" festival, there is much too much evidence to post here. But I will post this very interesting link:
> 
> The Origins of the Yule Season
> 
> ...


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> "The only way christianity was able to oust the old religion was to take on its aspects for its own"
> 
> Plain enough for you now?


Not at all clear. Your thinking on this seems to me to be seriously lacking in logic. Never mind, other issues are waiting, such as your insistence that 
King James was the one who forced the translators to render that Hebrew word in Exodus 22:18 as "witch"



> For someone supposedly studying theology your ignorance is appalling - or are you only studying christian theology? Paganism does not mean Wicca. Wicca does not mean paganism. The two terms are not interchangeable. Paganism is a blanket term for polytheistic religions, of which Wicca is one.


Very well then, Wicca. I am not studying any form of paganism. I'm not sure Hinduism (which has many gods) would normally be regarded as paganism though?



> No. Put it this way, you are saying one thing and I am saying the other. I have cited historical proof for my stance.


Historical proof? You surely don't mean that hopelessly inaccurate article about King James and the word "witch"? Did you actually look up those 14th and 16th century translations I specified? You can find them easily on the web, there is no need to go to a University library.

Liz


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Well after reading most of posts on this thread I don't think heaven is a very nice place to hypercritical for my taste, any way it sounds like most of the nice people will be going somewhere much better.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> If god treated people the way I treat my animals, the world would be a much happier place!


If God treated you as you treat your animals, you would not be Wiccan. Your animals do not have total freedom to do anything they like.



> You have contradicted yourself here. In an earlier post you said god was not obliged to take care of anybody. Now which do you really believe? That he is not obliged to take care of anybody, or that he is obliged to take care of his children?


God owes nothing to any of us. He PROMISES to take care of His children. He is not obliged to accept anyone as His child. He has, however, accepted many. There is no contradiction.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> If God treated you as you treat your animals, you would not be Wiccan. Your animals do not have total freedom to do anything they like.


I am not wiccan Liz. 



lizward said:


> God owes nothing to any of us. He PROMISES to take care of His children. He is not obliged to accept anyone as His child. He has, however, accepted many. There is no contradiction.
> Liz


So when you wrote



lizward said:


> You are obliged to take care of your own children, not everyone else's. Similarly, God takes care of His own children.


you didn't mean that god was obliged to take care of his own children then? So that means that even if you give him the adulation he requires, he still feels no obligation to look after you and let you into his gang?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Hell...... i'll catch you in a few years old friend :thumbup: :lol:


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Not at all clear. Your thinking on this seems to me to be seriously lacking in logic.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Keep pretending then hun, if it suits you. There are none so blind as those who will not see.



lizward said:


> Very well then, Wicca. I am not studying any form of paganism.
> 
> Liz


Why? If you are studying theology, surely you should be studying comparative religions?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I am not wiccan Liz.


Well, it might save a few misunderstandings if you say what you are. As far as I can see you are some sort of pagan.



> you didn't mean that god was obliged to take care of his own children then? So that means that even if you give him the adulation he requires, he still feels no obligation to look after you and let you into his gang?


God is not _obliged_ to save anyone. He _does_ save some - all who turn to Christ. Those he saves, He promises to keep. He saves _all_ who call out to him to save them. There is no question of anyone coming to Christ and being turned away.

Liz


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

*cracks open a bag of popcorn*


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Keep pretending then hun, if it suits you. There are none so blind as those who will not see.


I think it's perhaps six times now (or is it only five) that I have asked for your reaction to the FACT that the Hebrew term your religion wants to translate as poisoner was in fact translated as witch in every English translation from the fourteenth to sixteenth centuries. I rather doubt (but have not checked, so will not absolutely guarantee) that you will find even one translation into English that uses the word "poisoner" in that verse. You are positively urged to go and find one - or to find any Hebrew lexicon that gives that as a possible meaning. So far, all you have done is repeat the same assertion. Clearly this is a fideistic position for you. Don't expect anyone else to accept it as fact, though. Meanwhile, rather than address this issue, you keep on about some theory you have that English Christianity was spread because it was adapted to older pagan beliefs, this despite the fact that there is nothing unique about English Christianity and never has been.



> Why? If you are studying theology, surely you should be studying comparative religions?


No. When you take a degree, you take the course offered by your University, often with options. I have studied and am studying entirely Christian subjects - mainly hermeneutics. A degree in religious studies would be broader but I am taking theology.

Liz


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

lizward said:


> Well, it might save a few misunderstanding if you say *what you are*. As far as I can see you are some sort of pagan.


not everyones beliefs fit nicely into a catagory


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> I think it's perhaps six times now (or is it only five) that I have asked for your reaction to the FACT


And as many times as you have asked, I have answered that it is, in fact, you that are wrong. Have you missed the five or six replies?

You do have difficulty in reading, don't you?

Pass us some popcorn Tinks - looks like it's gonna be a long night!  I'm still waiting for a reply about christians stealing the babylonian's celebrations and making them their own. btw - that's BABYLONIAN, Liz, not British. Just making it clear.



lizward said:


> No. When you take a degree, you take the course offered by your University, often with options. I have studied and am studying entirely Christian subjects - mainly hermeneutics. A degree in religious studies would be broader but I am taking theology.
> 
> Liz


Ah.. As I thought, you are studying christian theology, not theology as a broader subject.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tink82 said:


> not everyones beliefs fit nicely into a catagory


I have a way of life, not a religion.  But I'd definitely be burned at the stake


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> And as many times as you have asked, I have answered that it is, in fact, you that are wrong. Have you missed the five or six replies?


O boy. Do you have those translations in front of you in any form whatsoever, or are you merely repeating what you wish to be true? Do I have to post every single url? You have been taught a falsehood. I realise that you desperately want it to be true, but it isn't.



> Pass us some popcorn Tinks - looks like it's gonna be a long night!  I'm still waiting for a reply about christians stealing the babylonian's celebrations and making them their own. btw - that's BABYLONIAN, Liz, not British. Just making it clear.


It's Babylonian now, is it? A few pages ago it was British pagan celebrations you were concerned about.



> Ah.. As I thought, you are studying christian theology, not theology as a broader subject.


I suggest you need to look up a few definitions.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> It's Babylonian now, is it? A few pages ago it was British pagan celebrations you were concerned about.


Liz, have you any idea how stupid you are making yourself appear by refusing to see what is written in plain black and white and purple for all the readers of this thread to see? The references to Britain are all in your mind. I've been trying to educate your incredibly closed mind to the fact that ALL OVER THE WORLD christianity took local customs and festivals and pretended they were something new, something unique. You obviously have no answers to this, hence all your fudging and trying to tie the debate up in ridiculousness with all your nonsense about my posts not being clear. They are perfectly clear, so either continue the debate in a sensible manner or admit you are tied up in knots and have no answers.

The babylonian reference was the one below, which was made by me several posts ago and which you obviously have no answer to as you have ignored it twice and tried to divert attention away from it by bleating on about british festivals and pretending you cannot understand what I am writing.

So what is you opinion about the chrsitians stealing ancient babylonian festivals (as below) and making them their own? How does it make you feel about the bible's depiction of the nativity, knowing it was all celebrated by babylonians a couple of thousand years before the christians took it for their own?



Spellweaver said:


> As for evidence about similar festivals to christmas being celebrated before the christians took it for their own "unique" festival, there is much too much evidence to post here. But I will post this very interesting link:
> 
> The Origins of the Yule Season
> 
> ...





lizward said:


> I suggest you need to look up a few definitions.
> 
> Liz


Some of us know enough about the English language not to need to look up definitions. Here's one for you, however, as you seem to be struggling.

Definition

theology noun /θiˈɒl.ə.dʒi//-ˈɑː.lə-/ n 
•  the study of religion and religious belief

(Definition of theology noun from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

seems straightforward enough to me.

You really need to think before you try to cross either linguistical or debating swords with someone who has a first class honours degree in English and Philosophy.

And now, I'm off to celebrate Mabon. Blessed be, Liz! May the Goddess watch over you this Mabon eve.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> O boy. Do you have those translations in front of you in any form whatsoever, or are you merely repeating what you wish to be true? Do I have to post every single url? You have been taught a falsehood. I realise that you desperately want it to be true, but it isn't.
> 
> It's Babylonian now, is it? A few pages ago it was British pagan celebrations you were concerned about.
> 
> Liz


blimey i dont think Spellweaver could have said it anymore clear!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok i have had a couple of glasses of wine and therefore exempt from 'maturity' :lol: Yes this is going to be silly but this is also how i see it..........i am after all a factual person (not a believer )

1. God made the world ''in 6 days and put Adam and Eve on it on the 7th'' Yes? Where were the Dinosaurs then? After Dinos are prehistoric and Man wasn't around then.......... They reigned for millions of years not days :lol:

2. Incest is ILLEGAL and obviously rightly so but my point is this: Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth by 'God' and made babies.....who made babies??! Get my point? No? Ok so in the Bible and in the eyes of 'God' we are all ''brothers and sisters'' :scared: 

3. Some courts still use the hand ont he Bible thingy yet prosecute perjury??? Perjury is lying...........Yep this makes NO sense!! 

4. Why didn't this 'God' save my Mum? and all but one Grandparents? And Auntie?


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Liz, have you any idea how stupid you are making yourself appear by refusing to see what is written in plain black and white and purple for all the readers of this thread to see? The references to Britain are all in your mind. I've been trying to educate your incredibly closed mind to the fact that ALL OVER THE WORLD christianity took local customs and festivals and pretended they were something new, something unique.


O, that was what you meant was it? Well, it wasn't what you said many pages ago, but never mind. Have it your way. Now, what about the translation issue?



> So what is you opinion about the chrsitians stealing ancient babylonian festivals (as below) and making them their own? How does it make you feel about the bible's depiction of the nativity, knowing it was all celebrated by babylonians a couple of thousand years before the christians took it for their own?


The "article" you linked to gave not one single citation from any academic or archaeological research, or from anything at all for that matter, and there are no qualifications he seems to have apart from being a member of some pagan religion. Why are we supposed to believe what he says? Just because he says it? Perhaps he's as unreliable as the person who posted the stuff about the KJV's translation of Exodus 22:18



> Some of us know enough about the English language not to need to look up definitions. Here's one for you, however, as you seem to be struggling.
> 
> Definition
> 
> ...




And here's one for you from dictionary.com

"the field of study and analysis that treats of god and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity."

More relevant is the content of actual theology courses: there is little point in saying that a theology course is supposed to address every minor religion there is (if that is what you believe) if in fact no UK courses do so. Still, if you want to say I am studying Christian theology, fine, I agree it is Christian theology. When I finally finish I will have a BTh in Hermeneutics.



> You really need to think before you try to cross either linguistical or debating swords with someone who has a first class honours degree in English and Philosophy.


I am sure your University did not give out first class degrees to people who are unable to 1. understand the difference between opinion and properly researched at peer-reviewed studies. or 2. appreciate the difference between reliable and unreliable internet sources. Clearly, then, you know what is required for a proper academic debate (as opposed to a knock about). Can I, then expect 1. that you will now find a proper peer-reviewed study (or book, but I am talking abotu an academic work not something populist without proper referencing) that shows these links between Christianity and Babylonian religion, and 2. that you will now at last acknowledge your error in posting that link which gave the false information about Exodus 22:18?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> blimey i dont think Spellweaver could have said it anymore clear!


She is refusing to accept the simple fact that she gave a link to a page full of errors. I would have much more respect for her if she said "you know what? I never thought to check the facts given in that link before, I will now go and do so" and then later went round any pagan forums she could find and said "we must not use that argument any more, it is patently false and can be shown to be false in about five minutes by anyone who has access to the internet"

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> 1. God made the world ''in 6 days and put Adam and Eve on it on the 7th''


No, he made Adam and Eve on the sixth and rested on the seventh.



> Yes? Where were the Dinosaurs then? After Dinos are prehistoric and Man wasn't around then.......... They reigned for millions of years not days :lol:


I did say pages and pages ago (so no blame to you if you missed it) that I really did not want to get into the creation/ evolution debate. It is not a primary issue, I know fine Christians on both sides. One kind person actually decided to red blob me for refusing to get into that - apparently it is not permitted to decide what I will and won't debate! If you want a creationist point of view, you could look up answers in genesis (can't remember the url but a web search will find them quickly)



> 2. Incest is ILLEGAL and obviously rightly so but my point is this: Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth by 'God' and made babies.....who made babies??! Get my point? No? Ok so in the Bible and in the eyes of 'God' we are all ''brothers and sisters'' :scared:


Well, no, not brothers and sisters - if I could find an outcross for my cats that was as distantly related as most of us are, I would be delighted. But yes, the creationist view is that Adam and Eve's children married one another. Incest was not outlawed until the Law of Moses - about 1400BC.



> 3. Some courts still use the hand ont he Bible thingy yet prosecute perjury??? Perjury is lying...........Yep this makes NO sense!!


I don't understand what you are getting at here, sorry.



> 4. Why didn't this 'God' save my Mum? and all but one Grandparents? And Auntie?


I'm sorry, I have no idea what happened to your relatives.

Liz


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I have a way of life, not a religion.  But I'd definitely be burned at the stake


ha ha! and me.... I'll fetch the wood


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

My postman looks like jesus hes just delivered my letters and a parcel opened the door and nearly pooped myself lol!


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## Tink82 (Mar 22, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> 2. Incest is ILLEGAL and obviously rightly so but my point is this: Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth by 'God' and made babies.....who made babies??! Get my point? No? Ok so in the Bible and in the eyes of 'God' we are all ''brothers and sisters'' :scared:


Is it not Eve's fault that women were seen as inferior for hundreds of years in England?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> O, that was what you meant was it? Well, it wasn't what you said many pages ago, ?


Yes it was - and it appears you are the only person on the forum unable to see this. Dosn't bode well for your studies, does it?



lizward said:


> More relevant is the content of actual theology courses: there is little point in saying that a theology course is supposed to address every minor religion there is


There is more point in doing that than blinkering yourself with one viewpoint.



lizward said:


> Can I, then expect 1. that you will now find a proper peer-reviewed study (or book, but I am talking abotu an academic work not something populist without proper referencing) that shows these links between Christianity and Babylonian religion,


Try this: The Melammu Project

for more links between babylonian and christian religion than you could ever imagine.



lizward said:


> and 2. that you will now at last acknowledge your error in posting that link which gave the false information about Exodus 22:18?
> Liz


No error. In Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live...? there are many references to the texts from which the author has taken his information. You, on the other hand, have given no references at all, merely your own insistence that you are right. Given that you have been wrong about so much, and shown so many times on this thread that you are incapable of reading even a simple post without putting your own spin on it, you have no-one to blame but yourself that I doubt you are right on this one.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> She is refusing to accept the simple fact that she gave a link to a page full of errors. I would have much more respect for her if she said "you know what? I never thought to check the facts given in that link before, I will now go and do so" and then later went round any pagan forums she could find and said "we must not use that argument any more, it is patently false and can be shown to be false in about five minutes by anyone who has access to the internet"
> 
> Liz


:lol: :lol: :lol: They are only errors according to you - a mere student of theology - and a narrow band of theology at that. Perhaps when you have actually completed your studies - perhaps when you have opened your mind to the fact that there are more religions in the world than yours - then you will be in a better position to argue your case. I look forward to that :thumbup:

In the meantime, during my full moon circle on Thursday night I will ask the goddess to send you some enlightenment. You need it hun!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> blimey i dont think Spellweaver could have said it anymore clear!


 As I said hun - there are none so blind as those who will not see.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Yes it was - and it appears you are the only person on the forum unable to see this. Dosn't bode well for your studies, does it?
> -----------------------
> There is more point in doing that than blinkering yourself with one viewpoint.


This is why I always thought theology is a subject best recieved by someone with a agnostic disposition - This way one is not clouded by their own views and opinions when researching an argument or statement.

But im a woman of engineering, what do I know about theology :lol:

The first link you posted wouldnt load for me (The Melammu Project)  which makes me sad! I do enjoy some amateur theology reading!
I found the link Janice posted about christ like characters pre-christ very interesting!

[I myself am agnostic, having attended CofE schools between the ages of 6 and 18, attending church as a youngster, sunday school and whatnot, so like to listen to other PoV/religions, other sides of the christian argument and links between religions - with which there seem many]


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Try this: The Melammu Project
> 
> for more links between babylonian and christian religion than you could ever imagine.


Thank you. Now, use that site to tell me what links you are thinking about.



> No error. In Thou Shalt Not Suffer a Witch to Live...? there are many references to the texts from which the author has taken his information. You, on the other hand, have given no references at all, merely your own insistence that you are right.


So primary sources don't count as references now? They did last year when I did my Post Graduate qualification. O well.

As for that link, a quote is given from a 16th century witch (hardly an unbiased source!) claiming that the Latin translation of the LXX uses the word Veneficium. Well, there is a reason why we generally translate from an original language rather than using two languages in between. What this 16th century biased source is saying, is that the English translation of the Latin translation of the Greek translation of the Hebrew should be poisoner.

It takes no more than a quick play with Babelfish to discover how reliable that method is!

Even so, the site still does not give any evidence that says that it was King James who first demanded use of the term "witch" in that verse. And for good reason, the word "witch" had been used there in all English translations that had ever been made.

Now, I also asked you (but only once, so you might have missed it) for 1. any modern English translation that uses any other word in Ex 22:18 than "witch" and 2. Any Hebrew lexicon that gives "poisoner" as a possible translation of Chasaph.

I find myself wondering why you keep going on about it anyway. It is hardly the only passage in the Bible to address the issue, and you don't believe the Bible in the first place.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: They are only errors according to you - a mere student of theology


You know what? I bet even YOU could read the English words of Ex 22:18 in Wycliffe, Miles Coverdale, Bishops and Geneva. You have a first class degree in English after all.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Thank you. Now, use that site to tell me what links you are thinking about.


Read the site and the links yourself. I spoonfed you with a precis of it from someone else and you refused to accept that. So .... do the work yourself.



lizward said:


> I find myself wondering why you keep going on about it anyway. It is hardly the only passage in the Bible to address the issue, and you don't believe the Bible in the first place.
> Liz


You're the one going on about it hun - I'm merely answering your incessant demands for more and more proof. Of course, while ever you are doing that, you are avoiding looking at the issues I've raised. Oh well, we'll let it drop and just acknowledge that you either want to ignore, or cannot answer, the issues about christianity merely being a hotch potch of other religions.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Savahl said:


> This is why I always thought theology is a subject best recieved by someone with a agnostic disposition - This way one is not clouded by their own views and opinions when researching an argument or statement.
> 
> But im a woman of engineering, what do I know about theology :lol:]


 I think you probably know quite a lot more than you realise - sounds as if you do a great deal of reading about the subject. I agree with your remarks about clouded opinions - whatever subject is being studied, if you approach it with preconceived ideas, all you will see are the things that agree with what you already believe. Studying a subject with an open mind, absorbing all the aspects of a subject, and then deciding what your views on it are, is a much better way to go about things.



Savahl said:


> The first link you posted wouldnt load for me (The Melammu Project)  which makes me sad! I do enjoy some amateur theology reading!
> I found the link Janice posted about christ like characters pre-christ very interesting!
> 
> [I myself am agnostic, having attended CofE schools between the ages of 6 and 18, attending church as a youngster, sunday school and whatnot, so like to listen to other PoV/religions, other sides of the christian argument and links between religions - with which there seem many]


Did you get anything at all from the link? When I load it all I get are a couple of banners at the top of the page. If I click on the left hand banner, it opens up a menu - it's a huge site with absolutely loads of interesting information, so I hope you do manage to get onto it. Have you tried googling the Melammu project? That might work.

I thought Janice's link about christ-like characters pre-christ very interesting indeed. Similarities like this fascinate me - in fact the more I read, the more I am astounded at the similarities between most religions. Give or take a few details, the myths are all very similar. Have you found this?


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> Did you get anything at all from the link? When I load it all I get are a couple of banners at the top of the page. If I click on the left hand banner, it opens up a menu - it's a huge site with absolutely loads of interesting information, so I hope you do manage to get onto it. Have you tried googling the Melammu project? That might work.
> 
> I thought Janice's link about christ-like characters pre-christ very interesting indeed. Similarities like this fascinate me - in fact the more I read, the more I am astounded at the similarities between most religions. Give or take a few details, the myths are all very similar. Have you found this?


I have heard that the Jesus character appears in bhuddism somewhere, and also in Hindu theology, but I havent had much chance to research this in any depth - so reading that link did open this up a bit to confirm what I had previously heard. However I cannot profess to be learned on the subject; as it is mere intrigue and interest rather than a studied issue 

I do find it fascinating that they all link together in ways ; as they would on the surface seem so different, and distanced! I would love to know what sparked such similarities, and what the sources for each religions scriptures are! Was there once one man; and as it was pre-written word the stories changed and adjusted as per chinese whispers amongst different cultures and societies? Did it all come from one place and spread? 
When I have finished my Beng I would love to dedicate some time into doing some theological research as it does fascinate me

I refer to Jesus as a character not in a disrespectful fashion as if a character is a tale, but as an individual that represents a similar personality to that in all the main religions. There is of course evidence that the man existed in some form around the time of the christian jesus; whether or not this was the Son of God cannot be proven either way but a man certainly did exist.

Edit: Also I do not wish any disrespect to anyone of faith, just because I have none myself. I am just expressing my views - not expecting anyone else to agree with them or follow them. I dont appreciate being preached to, and at the same time I will not belittle other peoples faith or believes. This is where I found Richard Dawkins writings distateful - they are too preachy AGAINST people of faith and this is unecessary,


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Read the site and the links yourself. I spoonfed you with a precis of it from someone else and you refused to accept that. So .... do the work yourself.


If you don't want to be specific, have your own way. Everyone here will believe you no doubt, that's their free choice. I am not going to take your word for anything. What I checked on the site told me nothing I didn't already know, it didn't back up that nonsense posted by your priest at all. But I admit I didn't check the entire site, I have better things to do.



> You're the one going on about it hun - I'm merely answering your incessant demands for more and more proof. Of course, while ever you are doing that, you are avoiding looking at the issues I've raised. Oh well, we'll let it drop and just acknowledge that you either want to ignore, or cannot answer, the issues about christianity merely being a hotch potch of other religions.


So far you have presented no proof whatsoever except a website full of errors. You are afraid, for some reason, to look up the plain facts that are readily available online.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> But I admit I didn't check the entire site, I have better things to do.
> 
> So far you have presented no proof whatsoever except a website full of errors. .
> 
> Liz


The proof is there; but as you have admitted in your first sentence, you just can't be bothered to read it.

Fine. Your choice. Your life. Your loss. However, just remember when you next begin to pontificate about your religion that there are truths you don't know because you couldn't be bothered to read about them.

Now unless you have something sensible to add to the debate, I suggest you go back to your "better things to do".


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Wow! I have just spent a few days visiting the delightful Glastonbury where all faiths mingle and are WELCOME, to come back to this thread still going round in circles!  Look Liz, with respect, just because some of us do not choose the Christian faith does not mean that we are destined to go to hell and I think it is misguided and arrogant for some members of some faiths to assume so. Whilst away we visited the beautiful and tranquil *Chalice Well Gardens* where all faiths (and non-believers) are welcome. Whilst there we witnessed some people praying and others meditating using crystals and candles. Indeed I lit a candle for my own mum who is ill and weak after two long, unsuccessful rounds of chemotherapy and who has just gone into a nursing home. I also sent out thoughts for people I know who are suffering from depression. Now I do not follow a faith - I do not need to in order to be a good and caring person.  But I respect those who do, be they wiccan, pagan, christian, muslim etc. Because I judge people for WHO they are, not what they follow - that's why, despite being a non-believer, I have friends from all faiths.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Wow! I have just spent a few days visiting the delightful Glastonbury where all faiths mingle and are WELCOME, to come back to this thread still going round in circles!  Look Liz, with respect, just because some of us do not choose the Christian faith does not mean that we are destined to go to hell and I think it is misguided and arrogant for some members of some faiths to assume so. Whilst away we visited the beautiful and tranquil *Chalice Well Gardens* where all faiths (and non-believers) are welcome. Whilst there we witnessed some people praying and others meditating using crystals and candles. Indeed I lit a candle for my own mum who is ill and weak after two long, unsuccessful rounds of chemotherapy and who has just gone into a nursing home. I also sent out thoughts for people I know who are suffering from depression. Now I do not follow a faith - I do not need to in order to be a good and caring person.  But I respect those who do, be they wiccan, pagan, christian, muslim etc. Because I judge people for WHO they are, not what they follow - that's why, despite being a non-believer, I have friends from all faiths.


Excellent post Caroline. According respect for WHO people are rather than what they believe is true spirituality, and I can't help feeling the world would be a better place if more people did this.

So sorry to hear about your mum - if you don't mind, I'll light a candle for her and add her to my healing prayers in my full moon circle tonight.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> Wow! I have just spent a few days visiting the delightful Glastonbury where all faiths mingle and are WELCOME, to come back to this thread still going round in circles!  Look Liz, with respect, just because some of us do not choose the Christian faith does not mean that we are destined to go to hell and I think it is misguided and arrogant for some members of some faiths to assume so. Whilst away we visited the beautiful and tranquil *Chalice Well Gardens* where all faiths (and non-believers) are welcome. Whilst there we witnessed some people praying and others meditating using crystals and candles. Indeed I lit a candle for my own mum who is ill and weak after two long, unsuccessful rounds of chemotherapy and who has just gone into a nursing home. I also sent out thoughts for people I know who are suffering from depression. Now I do not follow a faith - I do not need to in order to be a good and caring person.  But I respect those who do, be they wiccan, pagan, christian, muslim etc. Because I judge people for WHO they are, not what they follow - that's why, despite being a non-believer, I have friends from all faiths.


rep for you!


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

CarolineH said:


> Look Liz, with respect, just because some of us do not choose the Christian faith does not mean that we are destined to go to hell and I think it is misguided and arrogant for some members of some faiths to assume so.


My religion teaches that those who die outside of Christ go to hell. I am still entitled to my religion, it isn't illegal in the UK yet. You are entitled to yours too. That doesn't mean we can't debate it.

Liz


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> So sorry to hear about your mum - if you don't mind, I'll light a candle for her and add her to my healing prayers in my full moon circle tonight.


Thank you. That is kind of you. She has been suffering a lot with depression due to my over-bearing, controlling father and is at least out of his grasp, something I am very happy about. She now has a chance to get 'better' though I know it won't cure her. Her remaining time should now be much happier and more relaxed. 



Savahl said:


> rep for you!


Thank you.  I don't pretend to be some sort of philosopher or expert in religions etc. I just say as I feel in a way that I hope does not offend. I afford any religion respect, I just wish they could tolerate my right to non-faith better than some of them do.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> The proof is there; but as you have admitted in your first sentence, you just can't be bothered to read it.


As you can't be bothered to check the truth about the pre-1611 translations.

Liz


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

lizward said:


> My religion teaches that those who die outside of Christ go to hell.


 That way of thinking saddens me.


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Wow! I have just spent a few days visiting the delightful Glastonbury where all faiths mingle and are WELCOME, to come back to this thread still going round in circles!



I agree which is why I have been reading and not posting. I dpn't think either side really understands what the other is saying.



CarolineH said:


> Look Liz, with respect, just because some of us do not choose the Christian faith does not mean that we are destined to go to hell and I think it is misguided and arrogant for some members of some faiths to assume so.



Sorry but I personally find this offensive whether you meant it that way or not. I don't not think it is misguided or arrogant to answer a question. Liz was asked her personal viewpoint as well as the teachings of her faith on who will get into Heaven, she has shared her views on the matter as an answer. If someone had randomly been PMing members, or stopping them in the street to tell them to repent or else then I would agree it would be misguided and arrogant. However if I went into a mosque or temple to ask their views on the afterlife I hope I would be able to listen gratiously if they told me I wasn't joining them there. If someone is asked to share their faith and give their personal viewpoint I think they deserve respect, whether I share that viewpoint or not.

The Biblical viewpoint of Heaven is tough, and not all Christians even find it easy. I know there are differing opinions within my own church on the matter of Heaven. The Bible states that none can enter Heaven unless they repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour. On a personal level I don't think that excludes people living in remote settlements that have not heard of Jesus, or children or people who lived more than two thousand years ago from getting into Heaven, but I know others that do not share my views. As for modern day non-beleivers, I'm the only Christian in my family, it would be nice to think that I'd see some of them in Heaven. It's not Biblical teaching, but I believe a worship a loving and merciful God, so I can only hope.

I'm not necessarily going to agree with your beliefs and opinions, but I hope I don't see you are arrogant if you share them with me if I ask.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Lady Sol said:


> The Biblical viewpoint of Heaven is tough, and not all Christians even find it easy. I know there are differing opinions within my own church on the matter of Heaven. The Bible states that none can enter Heaven unless they repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and saviour. On a personal level I don't think that excludes people living in remote settlements that have not heard of Jesus, or children or people who lived more than two thousand years ago from getting into Heaven, but I know others that do not share my views. As for modern day non-beleivers, I'm the only Christian in my family, it would be nice to think that I'd see some of them in Heaven. It's not Biblical teaching, but I believe a worship a loving and merciful God, so I can only hope.


Lady Sol, please bear with me because what I am going to ask now is a genuine question, and not meant to be offensive at all. You see, you have hit upon one of the reasons I turned away from the christian faith. The bible states that no-one can enter heaven unless they repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Like you, I wanted to worship a merciful and loving god, but I had difficulty in perceiving the christian god as loving and merciful precisely because of those kind of statements in the bible. It just did not make sense to me that a loving and merciful god could deliberately exclude from heaven such pure souls as still-born children, for example. For me, hoping that I was right in my assumption and the bible was wrong caused a huge conflict - if I thought some parts of the bible were wrong, how could I believe in any of it? And so to my question - you have obviously gone through something similar and somehow reconciled the two, because you still have your faith. If you don't mind sharing, would you explain how you came to your conclusions?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Lady Sol said:


> Sorry but I personally find this offensive whether you meant it that way or not.


It was not intended to offend I assure you.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> It just did not make sense to me that a loving and merciful god could deliberately exclude from heaven such pure souls as still-born children, for example.


Actually the great majority of Christians would say that stillborn babies (and those who die in infancy) go to heaven. I would be genuinely interested to know which church you went to that taught something different because it is such a widespread belief throughout most denominations.

Liz


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> That way of thinking saddens me.


Why? I'm going to have an ever lasting tan!!


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

> Lady Sol, please bear with me because what I am going to ask now is a genuine question, and not meant to be offensive at all. You see, you have hit upon one of the reasons I turned away from the christian faith. The bible states that no-one can enter heaven unless they repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Like you, I wanted to worship a merciful and loving god, but I had difficulty in perceiving the christian god as loving and merciful precisely because of those kind of statements in the bible. It just did not make sense to me that a loving and merciful god could deliberately exclude from heaven such pure souls as still-born children, for example. For me, hoping that I was right in my assumption and the bible was wrong caused a huge conflict - if I thought some parts of the bible were wrong, how could I believe in any of it? And so to my question - you have obviously gone through something similar and somehow reconciled the two, because you still have your faith. If you don't mind sharing, would you explain how you came to your conclusions?


OK this is a very waffly answer so I appologise in advance. I realise it also might not actually answer the question set. Another reason I haven't been taking much of an active part in this thread! I realise it's more my personal viewpoint on a lot of stuff rather than an answer, but the answer to me isn't all that simple and goes a lot into the context of what I believe as a whole.

I think in some ways I'm lucky because I just have faith. I was called to be Christian at the age of 7. I was brought up in a secular family and went to a non-faith school. I had been to church, but only for weddings, Brownie church parade and other special occasions, my knowledge of Christianity came from living in modern middle-class Britain. I started Sunday school at 8 and started teaching it at 13. Never actually sat through a whole adult church service until I went off to university. I got baptised as an 'adult' at 10 and confirmed at 18. No-one actually taught me pre-church much about Christianity, I was called there by God and told my parents I wanted to go at 7 years old. I just knew then and know now he's real. He healed me when I was about 23 and couldn't walk, I can feel him looking out for me. It doesn't mean my life is wonderful, but I trust him to provide for me, even if I'm not sure how I'm going to pay the rent next month at the moment. I can't claim he's not real because I have proof in my own life he is, therefore I have faith. I admit it doesn't really work as fool-proof evidence when people ask me for proof there is a God. In a lot of the ways I've experienced God he's proved to me he's a loving and merciful God. For one thing he sent his blameless son to die in agony for any that follow him. I can't prove it to anyone though and I certainly can't tell you why a child dies of cancer or a hurricane destroys lives. I don't claim to know all the answers, just want I feel to be true.

As for Biblical teachings this is where I end up disagreeing with some other Christians. The Bible in my eyes in the modern English translation is full of inaccuracies and inconsistancies. It states many rules that Christians must follow of which a lot of the modern church to me seems to pick and choose what they follow to the letter. Some passages are stuck to like glue and others seem to be declared non-important nowadays. For example the Bible says that women should not teach men, but lots of churches, including mine have women preachers. I have no problem stating God did not make the world in 7 days, though I do believe he created it over a period of time, first making the universe and planets, then makes atmosphere and seas, introducing plant life, then more and more animals and finally evolved humans from our ape ancestors. I have more trouble on a personal level with quoting and following parts of the scripture that may have been the views of those followers of Jesus in that time and that place after certain events that need to be taken in the context of the time. I listen in church, pray and make my own decisions on what I believe God is telling me to do. It may not be the same as what the person on the pew next to me chooses to follow, or someone in another denomination, but it's accepting we are all fallible, all have free will and most people want to live a good life. I've just been watching the World's Squarest Teenagers on 4OD. Their Amish and follow the Bible a lot more strictly that most people do. The second episode does especially well at discussing some of the issues mention in this thread. Their way of following the Bible is very exact, but I do think just sometimes they'd do well to lighten up a bit.

I also personally believe that if the whole world were Christians and lived helpful, respectable and considerate lives we'd have a Heaven like state on Earth. Though that could probably said if everyone just treated each other and the world with respect regardless of their own beliefs.

To me the only requirement to be a Christian is that you accept that Jesus Christ, son of God, came down to Earth to die to save you from your sins. I follow a lot more Biblical teaching than that, though I admit there are huge chunks I don't understand, therefore follow. Anything else I do my best with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I know God is real, but I don't claim to understand him. They're my personal beliefs, but I believe everyone has the right to chose for themselves what they personally believe and all of those viwpoints should be respected and be tried to understood, even if we don't all agree with each other. It's a really lame answer, but the short answer is - I just believe what I believe.


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

> Actually the great majority of Christians would say that stillborn babies (and those who die in infancy) go to heaven. I would be genuinely interested to know which church you went to that taught something different because it is such a widespread belief throughout most denominations.


Now this is just based on my own personal experiences but...

Most modern denominations teach that way. However there are evangelical Christians that 'attach' themselves to people that show any interest in the Bible whatsoever (even if it's not running away quickly enough), that are very fundemental in their beliefs and do teach this. I personally came across it at university and again at Alpha. It was the Alpha one that annoyed me the most, I was already Christian I was accompaning someone who wasn't. I find you either agree with their definition of Christianity totally or they don't accept you as a valid Christian believer. They aren't the typical Christian you would come across in church or on the street, but I have met quite a few. I have no problem with most evangelical Christians, but I've met several with in my opinion extreme views in some areas. I personally find them quite scary, I can respect their rights to their views, but they are very determined in the way they spread them.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> Actually the great majority of Christians would say that stillborn babies (and those who die in infancy) go to heaven. I would be genuinely interested to know which church you went to that taught something different because it is such a widespread belief throughout most denominations.
> 
> Liz


I just went to an ordinary C of E church and Sunday school, and you are right, most of the people there would agree that still-born babies and innocent children would go to heaven. But that is part of what caused the conflict for me. If they accepted this, why couldn't they accept that an adult, who had done nothing but good works all his life, but had not accepted Jesus as lord and saviour, could also go to heaven? If the bible was god's word, then why could they pick and choose what parts of the bible they agreed with and which parts they didn't?

For me, it was a case of either I agreed with and followed god's word (which is set out in the bible) or I didnt. If I did follow god's word, I had to accept that he has decreed that no-one will go to heaven unless they have accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and that means that innocent children will go to hell. And if I chose the bits of the bible that fit with what I thought and ignored the bits that didn't, then that was defying the whole point of being a christian because I wasn't following god's word.

Can you see what I mean? It didn't matter what interpretation other christians had put on it, for me it was black and white. I either believed it lock stock and barrel, or I didn't. And because I didn't, I felt that christianity was not for me.


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Well I am Christian and have no problem with discussing God, his existence/not etc and respect peoples' beliefs whatever they are. But I have a big problem with Jehova's Witnesses. They are not interested in faith...they are not a religion. They are a cult. A sexist one at that. Very old fashioned yet somehow never fitted any times. I have heard first hand what goes on behind closed doors and would strongly advise people...particularly women...to stay away. What's wierd is I am in no way feminist...but this goes beyond fighting for equality...but more for morality and human rights.

However I find it hilarious that they all come out with the same thing! Bless them.

Rant over! Sorry!


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Hi LadySol...I just wanted to say I loved your (essay  ) answer! I didn't quote it as it would fill the page lol...but you have said exactly what I believe.

:thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I just went to an ordinary C of E church and Sunday school, and you are right, most of the people there would agree that still-born babies and innocent children would go to heaven. But that is part of what caused the conflict for me. If they accepted this, why couldn't they accept that an adult, who had done nothing but good works all his life, but had not accepted Jesus as lord and saviour, could also go to heaven?


I'm afraid I don't see your difficulty here. We all reach an age where we are able to choose. If God's requirement for entry to heaven is that you accept Christ, and you reject him, why should that cause any difficulty? The choice is made freely.



> If the bible was god's word, then why could they pick and choose what parts of the bible they agreed with and which parts they didn't?


Is this in relation to the stillborn babies question or something else? There are issues of culture that have to be addressed, Christians disagree sometimes about what was cultural and what was not, but I don't know any Christian anywhere who does not believe that some requirements in the Bible are cultural.



> For me, it was a case of either I agreed with and followed god's word (which is set out in the bible) or I didnt.


I commend you for that.



> If I did follow god's word, I had to accept that he has decreed that no-one will go to heaven unless they have accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour, and that means that innocent children will go to hell.


A good case can be made from scripture for there being an age of accountability, which is why most Christians believe there is one (not the same one for everyone). I would guess that whoever was teaching this in your church genuinely believed it to be true.

Liz


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I would take my hat off if i had one on to those in this thread who are truly passionate about what they believe in. Personally though, religion is not something I follow - I come from a Christian family but as i've got older my perception on religion has changed greatly. Religion, in my opinion, is something that was invented a long long time ago as a means of controlling people. People of those ages tended to have extreme hardships, be extremely supersticious (sp) and uneducated. Religion was all they had and to follow it was law. The horrifying punishments conducted by the leaders of those times should be enough for anyone to question their sanity. The facts are that times have changed scince then. Religion, on the other hand has not. People are still attempting to follow rules and laws and guidelines set thousands of years ago which don't fit in to the modern world. The world has progressed, we have moved on from those times and until religion follows suit it has no place in this world in my opinion. I mean we wouldn't keep any other laws from thousands of years ago would we? x


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Lady Sol said:


> N
> Most modern denominations teach that way. However there are evangelical Christians that 'attach' themselves to people that show any interest in the Bible whatsoever (even if it's not running away quickly enough), that are very fundemental in their beliefs and do teach this.


Do you know what church they went to?



> I personally came across it at university and again at Alpha. It was the Alpha one that annoyed me the most, I was already Christian I was accompaning someone who wasn't. I find you either agree with their definition of Christianity totally or they don't accept you as a valid Christian believer.


I find this rather surprising, I regard Alpha as rather wishy-washy. I guess it depends on the church teaching it though and whether they teach it themselves or use the Nicky Gumble videos.

Liz


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lizward said:


> There are issues of culture that have to be addressed, Christians disagree sometimes about what was cultural and what was not, but I don't know any Christian anywhere who does not believe that some requirements in the Bible are cultural.
> Liz


I can understand that, but for me it compounds the conflict. Once you get human beings deciding things - eg this issue is cultural, that issue is god's word and must be obeyed - it all becomes very subjective, and it all ends up in people following what _*people*_ think, rather than people following god's word. Add into that the fact the prevailing human opinion today is not necessarily the prevailing human opinion of tomorrow, and you get the whole confusing mess that christianity is today, with some people teaching one thing and some people teaching another, and god's word getting lost in the middle of it all.


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I would take my hat off if i had one on to those in this thread who are truly passionate about what they believe in. Personally though, religion is not something I follow - I come from a Christian family but as i've got older my perception on religion has changed greatly. *Religion, in my opinion, is something that was invented a long long time ago as a means of controlling people.* People of those ages tended to have extreme hardships, be extremely supersticious (sp) and uneducated. Religion was all they had and to follow it was law. The horrifying punishments conducted by the leaders of those times should be enough for anyone to question their sanity. The facts are that times have changed scince then. Religion, on the other hand has not. *People are still attempting to follow rules and laws and guidelines set thousands of years ago which don't fit in to the modern world.* The world has progressed, we have moved on from those times and *until religion follows suit it has no place in this world in my opinion*. I mean we wouldn't keep any other laws from thousands of years ago would we? x


I agree with the foundations of organised religion. But this is not something to be condemned. Rules and laws are what society need. Most religions have their own laws and the majority of people keep to the majority of them meaning there is a level of control in a wayward world!

Saying that many religions need to move with the times which I continually talk to my friends about...but to be fair organisations tend to be more traditionalist so this is hard.

I respect most religions because of this. I do not look down on peoples' beliefs...but people should not look down on ours. Everyone has their own beliefs. It amuses me how Richard Dawkins bangs on so much about the evils of religion....yet here he is writing his own scripture and calling followers for his anti-religion...so much that he is forming his own religion!


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I can understand that, but for me it compounds the conflict. Once you get human beings deciding things - eg this issue is cultural, that issue is god's word and must be obeyed - it all becomes very subjective, and it all ends up in people following what _*people*_ think, rather than people following god's word. Add into that the fact the prevailing human opinion today is not necessarily the prevailing human opinion of tomorrow, and you get the whole confusing mess that christianity is today, with some people teaching one thing and some people teaching another, and god's word getting lost in the middle of it all.


Eek!!!!!!! Thats a bit harsh! Christianity is not a mess! Why do you say that? Is is so vast thats all! xx


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

niki87 said:


> Eek!!!!!!! Thats a bit harsh! Christianity is not a mess! Why do you say that? Is is so vast thats all! xx


It may be harsh, but it's the way it seems to be to me. Going solely on what has been said on this thread, there is conflict between the various factions of christianity as to what is god's word and what is not god's word. Christians are moving way from following god's word as written in the bible, and deciding for themselves which parts of the bible it's culturally ok to ignore, and which parts must be adhered to. This means that people are following what *people* think, rather than following the word of god.


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> It may be harsh, but it's the way it seems to be to me. Going solely on what has been said on this thread, there is conflict between the various factions of christianity as to what is god's word and what is not god's word. Christians are moving way from following god's word as written in the bible, and deciding for themselves which parts of the bible it's culturally ok to ignore, and which parts must be adhered to. This means that people are following what *people* think, rather than following the word of god.


Oh yes to a certain extent I agree with that. Though the Bible is largely believed to be the word of God written in human terms in the way they understood it. It is full of human mistakes, translation errors and misinterpretation. Faith is really a personal thing and beliefs are based more on human experience. Understanding of these religious experiences are sometimes helped along by scriptural interpretations but few people base their beliefs on that. This is very generalised I know! xx


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

niki87 said:


> I agree with the foundations of organised religion. But this is not something to be condemned. Rules and laws are what society need. Most religions have their own laws and the majority of people keep to the majority of them meaning there is a level of control in a wayward world!
> 
> Saying that many religions need to move with the times which I continually talk to my friends about...but to be fair organisations tend to be more traditionalist so this is hard.
> 
> I respect most religions because of this. I do not look down on peoples' beliefs...but people should not look down on ours. Everyone has their own beliefs. It amuses me how Richard Dawkins bangs on so much about the evils of religion....yet here he is writing his own scripture and calling followers for his anti-religion...so much that he is forming his own religion!


No i do agree that we all need rules and laws but I don't think that condeming gays or abortion or contraception is something that fits in with the modern day world if you see my point.


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

i dont follow religion, im not bothered what religions family, friends others follow,,, i see it as their choice but what i dont agree with is how every religion as to have a go at what others believe in... its their choice who and what to believe

my best mates family are Jehovah's Witnesses, they were born one and some have died one. my best mate decided when she was a teen not to follow it, it was her choice, her mum and nan didnt mind... somethings they believe in i dont believe in but thats their choice not mine, they are good people and i respect them for it

one of my ex boyfriends is a christian and he shoves it down your face 24/7 thats what i dont agree with .... no one should be forced into religion if they dont want to be

at the end of the day if there was a god... its only one god

i dont agree with a lot that as been said on here but you have to respect what other people believe or dont believe in

no one will ever agree on religion and thats a fact


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## Lady Sol (Aug 20, 2009)

lizward said:


> Do you know what church they went to?


At university not sure with some of them. I know most were born again, evangelical, very keen to save everyone and part of the same small group of friends on the university campus. One of them decided approaching shoppers on a Saturday morning was the way to spread the good news. They were very nice people on the whole, but also very sure they had to convince everyone to believe the same as them. Consequently a lot of people avoided them.

The one at Alpha went to my CofE church which is actually a mix of denominations. The communion service is CofE, but the congregation is very varied. We're a large parish with 2 churches, 7 Sunday services and 2 Sunday prayer sessions. One church is very traditional CofE, one is more modern. I go to evening praise/communion. It gets a wide variety of denominations going as it gets a bigger congregation than the nearby churches at that time in the evening so it's less scary, it attracts the students, it's a mix of worship styles, they explain what is going on in the service and how you are meant to take part if you want to, there's free town centre parking and there is usually free food on offer after the service (feeding the local students :lol.

We are talking about probably only 10 Christians I've met so far though.



> I find this rather surprising, I regard Alpha as rather wishy-washy. I guess it depends on the church teaching it though and whether they teach it themselves or use the Nicky Gumble videos.
> 
> Liz


The main teaching part was good if slightly wishy washy. My issue was with one of the church members in during small group discussions.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

This thread is immense  and i am repping Lizward! I do not follow nor agree (in some ways) with religion of any sort but she is still posting and nothing really nasty has been said. You are one in a million Lizward :thumbup:


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

niki87 said:


> It is full of human mistakes, translation errors and misinterpretation. Faith is really a personal thing and beliefs are based more on human experience. Understanding of these religious experiences are sometimes helped along by scriptural interpretations but few people base their beliefs on that. This is very generalised I know! xx


(coughs) yes, very generalised indeed. That description certainly doesn't apply to me!

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> This thread is immense  and i am repping Lizward! I do not follow nor agree (in some ways) with religion of any sort but she is still posting and nothing really nasty has been said. You are one in a million Lizward :thumbup:


Thank you!

We are on the second page out of 1405 if you sort by size(either number of replies or number of views) on the general thread. Shall we see if we can make it to the top page? 

Seriously though, I shall most certainly be using this thread as an illustration next time I talk about witnessing!

Liz


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## niki87 (Nov 18, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> No i do agree that we all need rules and laws but I don't think that condeming gays or abortion or contraception is something that fits in with the modern day world if you see my point.


No I don't agree with condemning homosexuality...that dates from ancient thinings and it hasn't moved with the time. Abortion is different...that stems from a more up to date belief in the sacredness of life. But thats another debate 



smudge2009 said:


> i dont follow religion, im not bothered what religions family, friends others follow,,, i see it as their choice but what i dont agree with is how every religion as to have a go at what others believe in... its their choice who and what to believe
> 
> my best mates family are Jehovah's Witnesses, they were born one and some have died one. my best mate decided when she was a teen not to follow it, it was her choice, her mum and nan didnt mind... somethings they believe in i dont believe in but thats their choice not mine, they are good people and i respect them for it
> 
> ...


Too true!



lizward said:


> (coughs) yes, very generalised indeed. That description certainly doesn't apply to me!
> 
> Liz


OK well I respect that!  xx


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