# Breed fault or faulty breeders ??



## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Why is it do you think some breeders do carry on breeding cats that have obvious faults in them, faults that could be passed down from parent to kitten, surely this isnt in the intrest of any breed to do this, best wishes...CHRIS


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

It depends what sort of faults you mean. If you mean only faults of appearance, first, not all breeders want to breed for show and second, you can, if you breed carefully, get offspring that are better than either parent. And most importantly, the gene pool in many breeds is already so narrow that we need to be encouraging breeders to widen it, not narrow it down even further.

Liz


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

I agree, it depends on the fault. I know of one "mismarked" bicolour queen who consistently has perfectly marked kittens. Although she's got very good type, I would have overlooked her breeding potential based on her incorrect markings on her face. Just goes to show! Appearances can be deceptive!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

ive seen even the best breeders have some miss marked girls, agree with the 2 above posties! im sure my tortie girl is miss marked she has 1 half white back paw, still going to take her to a show with my boy, see what happens!


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

lizward said:


> It depends what sort of faults you mean. If you mean only faults of appearance, first, not all breeders want to breed for show and second, you can, if you breed carefully, get offspring that are better than either parent. And most importantly, the gene pool in many breeds is already so narrow that we need to be encouraging breeders to widen it, not narrow it down even further.
> 
> Liz


I obviously have no knowledge of breeding cats but have bred and shown dogs.In my opinion it is never acceptable to breed from any animal in the knowledge that there are faults in the line.It does not matter whether these faults are in appearance ,conformation ,temperament or health ,they are faults.The reason people breed surely is to improve their chosen breed.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

I think I rambled on a bit here, so please excuse me in advance? 

I don't disagree, exactly, but I think it may be slightly different with dogs?

It's not unusual for unremarkable parents to produce lovely, typey kittens, and for an absolutely beautiful queen or stud to produce very run-of-the-mill typed kittens.

Not being a breeder myself yet, I've never faced this in practice, but I think a minor fault in appearance (something like less than perfect spots) might not be a problem, with the right stud.

Of course, it's a difficult dilemma, and a very important question, in my opinion. Of course you want to improve the breed, but genetics is very complex, and just because a cat is not themselves absolutely perfect, it does not rule out type of their kittens. 

I think that probably the best bet you have is to breed for consistency in type, and then improve on that consistency. If you don't have a specific 'look' in mind, you're never going to breed towards anything specific, and are more likely to just be breeding for the sake of it, not for the sake of improving the breed.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

buffie said:


> I obviously have no knowledge of breeding cats but have bred and shown dogs.In my opinion it is never acceptable to breed from any animal in the knowledge that there are faults in the line.It does not matter whether these faults are in appearance ,conformation ,temperament or health ,they are faults.The reason people breed surely is to improve their chosen breed.


Well yes, to improve the breed, also to improve your own line. But the inbreeding situation is very serious, we don't want to end up in the same position as the pedigree dog world. Well, I don't, anyway. The more animals you remove from the gene pool, the more problems you store up for the future.

Liz


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

lizward said:


> Well yes, to improve the breed, also to improve your own line. But the inbreeding situation is very serious, we don't want to end up in the same position as the pedigree dog world. Well, I don't, anyway. The more animals you remove from the gene pool, the more problems you store up for the future.
> 
> Liz


The pedigree dog world is in the mess it is in because people only want to use the"in dogs" regardless of their suitability to the bitch and her breeding.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I do remember getting an enquiry from someone who wanted to breed. They informed me that although they would be selling the kittens as pets they only intended to breed the best of show quality cats. Once I'd stopped laughing I asked for the secret - never got it.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

lizward said:


> Well yes, to improve the breed, also to improve your own line. But the inbreeding situation is very serious, we don't want to end up in the same position as the pedigree dog world. Well, I don't, anyway. The more animals you remove from the gene pool, the more problems you store up for the future.


Whilst inbreeding is a worry, it is also a worry if you leave unhealthy cats in the gene pool to pass their unhealthiness on to others, is that not also storing up trouble?


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

We have breeding cats that are not pattern perfect, but we breed for the type and temprement of the cat, if the pattern come then great, most pet owners are after just that, a pet, they are not worried if the coloulr on the hck is slightly too high or the V on the Bi-colour is a little wonky as long as they have a healthy loving Ragdoll, look at Blue, he would be great for shows, he is pattern perfect, (He's a colourpoint, not much can go wrong with the pattern :lol: ) but he came from a mismarked Bi-colour. We show a girl that we know is not a great showcat and won't do very well in shows, but she shows the public what a Ragdoll is, in tempriment, she is a good ambassador for us and the Raggies. saying this, we won't breed from cats with tail faults or any physical body faults, or from kittens that have had illnesses while growing (depending on the illnes).


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## Steverags (Jul 19, 2010)

havoc said:


> I do remember getting an enquiry from someone who wanted to breed. They informed me that although they would be selling the kittens as pets they only intended to breed the best of show quality cats. Once I'd stopped laughing I asked for the secret - never got it.


:lol::lol::lol: Wish I knew the secret


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

buffie said:


> The pedigree dog world is in the mess it is in because people only want to use the"in dogs" regardless of their suitability to the bitch and her breeding.


And the cat world isn't much different - titles speak loudest.

liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Whilst inbreeding is a worry, it is also a worry if you leave unhealthy cats in the gene pool to pass their unhealthiness on to others, is that not also storing up trouble?


Certainly, assuming of course that the health issues are hereditary. But I assumed we were talking about cosmetic faults.

Liz


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Steverags said:


> We have breeding cats that are not pattern perfect, but we breed for the type and temprement of the cat, if the pattern come then great


I quite agree that pattern faults may not be a severe problem, however health is.
Are your Ragdolls tested for HCM, as there is now a DNA test for HCM in Ragdolls?
Inherited disorders in cats - RAGDOLL



> It has been reported that HCM in the Ragdoll may lead to a more severe form of the disease than in other breeds, with younger cats presenting in congestive failure and a poor prognosis. Recently a genetic mutation of the myosin binding protein C gene has been identified within this breed. This is a different mutation to that identified within the Maine Coon breed.


HCM is a fault that can be passed on from parent to offspring.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

I should have made my initial post a little clearer, i wasn't refering to mis-marked cats as its quite possible for mis-marked cats to throw out some gorgeous perfectly marked kittens and be of " good type ". Its when some breed from cats with faults such as tail faults of eye probs that can be passed onto any offspring then it becomes annoying


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

lizward said:


> But I assumed we were talking about cosmetic faults.


I don't think the OP specified, but if it is cosmetic faults then I agree there is no need to limit the gene pool by being too ruthless over cosmetic issues.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

All our cats have been tested and cleared for the HCM gene.....best wishes......CHRIS.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> All our cats have been tested and cleared for the HCM gene.....best wishes......CHRIS


.

That's good to hear Chris.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

have seen alot of breeders breeding white tip tails now which i dont understand? I think health is the most important thing, who breeds from unhealthy cats?? only byb surely?


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I think when starting out in breeding any animal (including cats), you automatically search out the "biggest" breeders. It's natural to look for them because you would think they would have the best animals. Maybe best to look at but most likely to have the highest ratio of inbreeding and possible genetic faults.
I think too many people are breeding from the same animals. There's a lot to be said for regular outcrossing and keeping genepools diversified.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

alisondalziel said:


> I think too many people are breeding from the same animals. There's a lot to be said for regular outcrossing and keeping genepools diversified.


I agree,there is more than enough breeders and lines in the majority of breeds to keep your gene pool diverse.Whilst I know their are certain breeds who do have a shortage there are those that dont.

The trouble is when there is availabilty, some breeders over inflate the price of for example a breeding queen. 
The other problem is there are some breeders who make it very difficult,to obtain one,as they do not like competition.

I also think breeding is about what you wish to achieve,I am not talking about Byb wanting to achieve maximum profit for as little effort as possible,I am talking about reputable hobby breeders or professional show breeders.

Hobby breeders are on average concerned with temperament and type over markings,so to most a slight defect on a facial pointing etc is a small price to pay for producing an amazing kitten that a family will fall in love with and who will give equally as much love as it recieves.

Whilst Show breeders want also to have kittens with fantastic temperament,and loving qualitys etc, they are more fixated with producing,perfect profiles,markings,ear spacings etc.

If you want to produce consistant show quality kittens, the majority of show breeders would over look a kitten /cat with a marking default.Even thoughh it is possible for their ofspring to be perfect,out of fear that there kittens might potentially carry this over So the risk is not an acceptable one.

Where a hobby breeder will,as they equally know it might not carry it over, but to them the risk is an exceptable one, as they are breeding more for temperament etc.

As for genetic health faults, Imo if the cat has them then it should not be used, but thats just my opinion.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Taylorbaby said:


> have seen alot of breeders breeding white tip tails now which i dont understand? I think health is the most important thing, who breeds from unhealthy cats?? only byb surely?


Ok I have to ask about white tip tails because I have a kitten with this he is a NFC,is this a fault or show a problem with health?

Just curious thats all!

Izzie


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

I feel some times people can breed for just one reason shows..... Sadly though it will always happen.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I agree,there is more than enough breeders and lines in the majority of breeds to keep your gene pool diverse.Whilst I know their are certain breeds who do have a shortage there are those that dont.


It's also worth remembering that a diverse gene pool, whilst obviously desirable, is not the end of the matter. What's needed is a healthy gene pool. I happen to be a breeder who is (and always has) worked towards improving the gene pool in my breed by adding to it. HOWEVER, I still consider that selection is as important if not more so than sheer diversification. I would mate related cats from proven healthy lines before I'd risk a mating between two completely unrelated parents if I couldn't research the background. A zero coefficient of inbreeding isn't in itself the answer to all ills.


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Izzie999 said:


> Ok I have to ask about white tip tails because I have a kitten with this he is a NFC,is this a fault or show a problem with health?


A white tail tip is not a fault in the Norwegian breed, as, as I understand it, any amount of white is allowed on NFO show cats. Does anyone here who is more familiar with the UK standard specifically disagree?

Also, I think you mean the connection between white cats and deafness when you're asking if it could have something to do with health? Yes, the cells that cause the colours in cats (melanocytes) come from the top of the embryo (what we call the 'neural crest cells' will migrate down the embryo as it grows and differentiate into a variety of cells with different functions, including melanocytes and cells in the ear structures). When there is white, those melanocytes are "lazy": they stop and don't go all the way down. That's why when a cat has white, it's always the bottom of the cat (the tummy and paws) and not the top that's white.

Because melanocytes and the 'hearing cells' come from the same place, they both get the message to stop at the same time. That's why there's a connection between blue-eyes (with no colour cells) and deafness. If the melanocytes went down far enough to cause non-blue eyes (or, in your case, almost to the very end of the cat :lol then chances are, the hearing cells got far enough, and the chances of deafness are very low.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> those melanocytes are "lazy": they stop and don't go all the way down. That's why when a cat has white, it's always the bottom of the cat (the tummy and paws) and not the top that's white.


Despite having had umpteen white shoed/booted/bellied/chinned/bibbed cats & kittens... I never knew that was the reason!! (or that there even was a reason). Thanks for that little nugget! :thumbup:


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

havoc said:


> It's also worth remembering that a diverse gene pool, whilst obviously desirable, is not the end of the matter. What's needed is a healthy gene pool.


A very good point:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Izzie999 said:


> Ok I have to ask about white tip tails because I have a kitten with this he is a NFC,is this a fault or show a problem with health?
> 
> Just curious thats all!
> 
> Izzie


sorry i was talking about ragdolls, i thought it was a fault but lots of people seem to love it? dont know why!! :


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> sorry i was talking about ragdolls, i thought it was a fault but lots of people seem to love it? dont know why!! :


Daddy Warbucks, the very first ragdoll and one of the foundation cats for the ragdoll breed had a tail tip. Many breeders have been trying to breed the tippies since. It's very hit or miss, even with litters from tipped parents and relatively uncommon.


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## raggs (Aug 3, 2008)

Izzie999 said:


> Ok I have to ask about white tip tails because I have a kitten with this he is a NFC,is this a fault or show a problem with health?
> 
> Just curious thats all!
> 
> Izzie


You can always look up the GCCF S.O.P. ( standard of points ) for this breed and most breed of cats differ in their SOP. best wishes........Chris


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

raggs said:


> You can always look up the GCCF S.O.P. ( standard of points ) for this breed and most breed of cats differ in their SOP. best wishes........Chris


Hi Chris,

The GCCF sop wouldn't apply over here in Switzerland,over here people seem to like the tippies in the NFC,will look into whether they are considered a fault with FIFE.

Best wishes

Izzie


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Izzie999 said:


> The GCCF sop wouldn't apply over here in Switzerland,over here people seem to like the tippies in the NFC,will look into whether they are considered a fault with FIFE.


Oh, didn't realise you were with FIFe; it was their NFO standard I was talking about. Here it is. Any amount of white is allowed; it's not a fault at all.


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## Izzie999 (Nov 27, 2008)

Atlantys said:


> Oh, didn't realise you were with FIFe; it was their NFO standard I was talking about. Here it is. Any amount of white is allowed; it's not a fault at all.


Hi,

Thanks so much for that! I should have said I was with FIFE. The kitten in question is going as a pet so no showing,but he is going to a really great family.The little boy wanted him so much he has offered to give up his pocket money

Izzie


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## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Izzie999 said:


> Thanks so much for that! I should have said I was with FIFE. The kitten in question is going as a pet so no showing,but he is going to a really great family.The little boy wanted him so much he has offered to give up his pocket money


Oh, how sweet.  Sounds like a wonderful home. I'm sure they'll both make each other very happy.


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