# Raw food diet without bones



## ec81 (Jul 29, 2013)

Good Morning Everyone!
I am new to posting, but my husband (peteJC21) is on here regularly asking for all your advice! We are currently on opposite sides of the age old Raw Food Diet argument. Pete would like to do this for our two rescue lurchers. I think the main reason is for our newest addition, Henry. He has been with us for about 3 months now and still has regular bouts of diarrhea. He was with his foster mum for about 3 months and was fed Wainrights, and something else I can't remember, but Pete will probably be along at some point to let you know! We gradually changed him to Burns and I believe he has also been on Field and Trial.

I have nothing against the raw food diet as such. I think it's a great idea, although I think we will have to deal with some guarding issues over such a high value food. My biggest problem is that I absolutely do not want my dogs eating bones. I have read all the advice about starting off slowly, watch them, do not feed cooked bones, etc. Basically, they are both gannets and I think they are likely to have a bone accident long before they can be taught to eat nicely.

I have read this thread - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/185367-bad-raw-experiences.html - and found it to be very informative but I am still feeling very "anti-bones".

As far as I am concerned, right now, I will not allow our dogs to have bones. Does anyone on here feed a raw food diet without the bones? What alternatives do you use to replace the bones with regards to their nutritional and tooth cleaning advantages? If Pete and I can come up with a suitable compromise here, then you have helped to resolve a disagreement that has been going on for a week already :rolleyes5:

Thank you in advance for your time and advice.

Emma


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2013)

Chicken necks are great to start with its unlikely they will choke on a chicken or turkey neck. Hold the bone if your worried so they have to chew it.


The ganet nature of a dog is perfectly natural especially when they gulp. My advice start out with softer bones. Holding the bones will teach the dogs to chew if you go onto the Nurturing by nature website the bones have videos showing how the dogs eat it will give you some reasurances.


Dogs are more competent then you may think at eating bones their teeth are fully 100% designed for it.


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## bay20 (Aug 14, 2013)

I have recently been considering changing my dogs diet as well due to an unsettled tummy. Vet has found no problems and so next step is to address his diet. 

I have done alot of research and came across Natural Instincts speciality raw pet food, of which the beef variety has no bones in it if that is a concern for you. 

I have also come across Eden dog food. this has an 80/20/0 composition with 0% grain which i think i will try first due to the high meat content an the fact mine is already on dry food and this will probably be an easier transition.

please be aware i have not tried any of these personaly yet so cannot comment on their suitability and these are just items i have come across during my research for my own pet.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Would you be happy feeding mince with bone included ? There's an excellent topic recently about making your own mince mixes.( VERY committed !!! ) 
I , after months of anxiety, have started giving my mini dachshund chicken wings, she's nearly 10 yrs old with missing teeth, and she deals with them very competently. If it's the dental benefits of bones you think they'll miss out on ,you could give them Fish4Dogs Sea jerky, very crunchy and Tango adores them.
I'm seriously considering starting Tango on some raw, the Nutriment minces appeal to me. She is also a gannet and being small and elderly, though pretty bouncy and active, puts on weight very easily. 
Hope this helps ?


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

I thought for raw feeding dogs need meat, offal and bone for a balanced diet.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you considered using the complete minces? These are made up to the correct ratio of meat, offal & bone so will be the right amount nutritionally but no chewing.

You could stick with that for a while & use chews to help with dental care. You can buy lots of different things; pizzle sticks, tripe sticks, cow/pig ears etc or buy a dehydrator & do it yourself.

I can understand your concerns regarding bones, one of my dogs did choke whilst eating a leg of venison & it was a horrible experience. However, I do watch him carefully now & he seems as if he takes a bit more care whilst eating.

I wouldn't rule out bones completely, maybe after a whole try some chicken carcasses or necks (as suggested by Prowl) as these are softer & easier to chew.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

In short, no, I've never considered raw feeding without the bones, because all the surrounding gristle, ligaments, fats etc would also be lost, which all form part of the nutrients which make if such a healthy diet. 

The two rescue oldies I had a few years back (Lab and Lab cross) both switched over without too much trouble. Chloe, the Lab cross was a little bit picky, but she was like that with complete food as well, but she managed with her chicken wings absolutely fine, and they really did help clean her teeth which were quite badly coated with tartar. 

I also *believe* it's part of a healthy mouth for a dog to have to chew through things, I know when a dog puts pressure down on to something and chews, it releases endorphins. 

I would strongly consider looking at letting them have some bone content in their diet, it really is good for them, my lot love their bones


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> In short, no, I've never considered raw feeding without the bones, because all the surrounding gristle, ligaments, fats etc would also be lost, which all form part of the nutrients which make if such a healthy diet.
> 
> The two rescue oldies I had a few years back (Lab and Lab cross) both switched over without too much trouble. Chloe, the Lab cross was a little bit picky, but she was like that with complete food as well, but she managed with her chicken wings absolutely fine, and they really did help clean her teeth which were quite badly coated with tartar.
> 
> ...


Would the complete, bone containing minces not be adequate then ? Perhaps with a cruncy chew every day as well ? I'm very intersted in feeding Tango some Nutriment minces with chicken wings 3-4 times a week,.


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2013)

I fined it it confunsing that people are unwilling to give their dogs bones but happy let their have chews? o.0''

They would be easily able to choke on either. Chews can get stuck in the teeth and are more hazardous then bones.

Chunks of meet can do the dental work., DAF producs, MVM products and the previous ones mentioned you just have to look through the ingrediants some contain bones, offal and all.


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## ec81 (Jul 29, 2013)

Hi Prowl, for cooking at home, I only ever really handle meat fillets, so wouldn't recognise one bone from another. However, I will take a look at chicken and turkey necks and see if I would feel comfortable feeding these. Thanks. 

Thanks Bay20. Foods like the Natural Instincts and Eden dog foods are probably what Pete and I should be looking to move to in the meantime while our debate continues. Someone on the "bad experiences" thread mentioned that they used Ziwipeak, so Pete and I can research the ingredients each of these use. 

SusieRainbow, I had not even considered making my own minces, that seems like a great idea. I will see if I can find the link. I am assuming these are to be frozen? I read that beef mince can cause health issues for dogs if it is not frozen first. 

deca1, yes, I do understand that dogs need the offal and bones also, which is why I would like to find an alternative in case we decide that this is just not an option for Daisy and Henry. 

Cleo38, I think the minces are a good option for us for now. We do feed them ears, and Pete gives Henry the odd hoof. I guess, ultimately, this is the same sort of thing as feeding bones? I'm uncomfortable with chicken bones still, I know they're softer, but I just don't trust it! I will definitely check out necks though. 

It seems to be that if a dog has an accident with a bone, it's going to cause a big enough health issue that they'll need veterinary care. I want them to have the best diet, but I don't want to be giving them food that makes me nervous. If one of them got hurt, I'd feel awful and know I wouldn't continue with the raw diet, which is why I'd like to find an alternative option. 

Thanks, Emma.


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## moomoo10 (May 10, 2012)

I was actually going to post something to do with this today as i needed guidance too!

I was speaking to someone on our local park last night who was telling me first hand of the benefits of raw feeding. 

He too has a small dog, similar sizes to mine & gives minced food. I've absolutely never fancied raw feeding at all and giving dogs bones goes against the grain with me, for aggressive issues, possible splinters and choking. Our Westie has choked on pigs ears, even tripe cos she's so greedy. 

However, after speaking to this guy & reading the website of the company he recommended and reading the testimonials of the customers who've benefited from the change to raw i'm tempted to try. But I would def be hesitant/frightened to try them on raw bones. I found the information in RAW really informative and it answered a lot of newbie questions such as can you feed scraps as well as raw/can they still have regular food etc

I'll speak to the company first but am going to place an order to see how i get on with it....yikes!


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

This is the raw diet minces thread

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/320042-making-your-own-minced-raw-diet.html


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SusieRainbow said:


> Would the complete, bone containing minces not be adequate then ? Perhaps with a cruncy chew every day as well ? I'm very intersted in feeding Tango some Nutriment minces with chicken wings 3-4 times a week,.


I'm sure it would be enough as regards nutritional requirements, but eating is more than that, we enjoy eating food, the flavours and textures, and actually chewing bones is something humans do when they don't have toothbrushes to keep their teeth clean! It's logical then to assume dogs enjoy eating something that gives them the same sense of fulfilment, chewing bones is nice for them, we know that because it helps release endorphins, but it also keeps their mouth and dentition healthier; so although minced stuff with bones in contains adequate nutrition, you've got to wonder if it fulfils the other things required by a diet. I hate making comparisons between humans and dogs, but if you had to eat just blended mush for the rest of your life, without ever tasting lovely crisp pastry, or soft crumbly cheese etc, it would seem like a very bland and boring diet, not something I'd look forward to in any case


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Raw feeding is all about the variety for me and it wouldn't be the same without bones. My JRT is one of the greediest dogs around but she's always supervised when eating. I have to weigh up the benefits vs risks. After all there's risks with anything they eat.


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

Is there any disadvantage to cutting out what people consider the riskier bones and just feeding the ones that are consider safer? 

Roughly what do you spend a month per dog on a raw diet? I wasn't estimating it would be around £40-45 a month (probably more initially though) per dog.

They had lamb kidneys on sale on Sainsburys yesterday, I considered getting a few as treats. Is raw food safe to feed every now and again as a treat? Or are they likely to get the runs as they're not used to it?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't spend anywhere near that much on my dogs, to feed all four costs me under £30 per month, easily. 

There are plenty of people who give their dogs the occasional chicken wing to help clean teeth, a couple of owners of the pups I bred occasionally feed chicken wings, so yes, it's fine to give them raw every now and then. 

The riskier bones for me are the larger weight bearing bones, which aren't all that nutritious in any case, so I only ever give them as a treat, not a meal; they get sawn up into appropriate sized portions as well.


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## ec81 (Jul 29, 2013)

Hi Pete! 

Thank you all for your advice. As I said, my biggest fear is that one of them will get hurt eating a bone. However, if we are able to comfortably feed certain bones (i.e. the turkey necks, after I've checked these out) perhaps I may feel more confident to try something else at a later date. 

Perhaps Pete and I can find a happy medium involving the minced foods and giving raw without bones once or twice a week. 

Thanks again for all the tips, we have lots of options to consider from here. Hopefully we'll find something that works well and we'll post back our experiences at a later date. 

Emma


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't spend anywhere near that much on my dogs, to feed all four costs me under £30 per month, easily.


Wow, that is cheap. We're feeding Skinners at the minute and spending about that for 2 dogs! I'm guessing a good relationship with a local butcher is a good idea then. I read your other post, that you get a lot of freebies from your local.



ec81 said:


> Hi Pete!
> 
> Thank you all for your advice. As I said, my biggest fear is that one of them will get hurt eating a bone. However, if we are able to comfortably feed certain bones (i.e. the turkey necks, after I've checked these out) perhaps I may feel more confident to try something else at a later date.
> 
> Emma


;-)

Yes, I think the idea anyway is to gradually build up to it, starting with one protein source and easy bones and training them to eat safely (as opposed to eating the entire bowl in one gulp, like Henry does), then moving onto other meats and bones as they get used to it. If we did try it, whatever we did would be a gradual process and if they can't prove to us they can eat safely then we'll stop and stick to a good quality kibble.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

PeteJC21 said:


> Wow, that is cheap. We're feeding Skinners at the minute and spending about that for 2 dogs! I'm guessing a good relationship with a local butcher is a good idea then. I read your other post, that you get a lot of freebies from your local.


Yes, a good local butchers helps tremendously; my closest butchers do their own butchering, where as many these days buy all their meat ready prepared to stick out on a counter and sell.

I collect at least three large trays of a variety of bones each week, and get a bag of chicken carcasses from time to time as well. I also get offal, lites and whatever else they have on a Friday that's going free! I pop in for a buttie and leave my van open, and it's magically filled with freebies :laugh:


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

PeteJC21 said:


> Is there any disadvantage to cutting out what people consider the riskier bones and just feeding the ones that are consider safer?
> 
> Roughly what do you spend a month per dog on a raw diet? I wasn't estimating it would be around £40-45 a month (probably more initially though) per dog.
> 
> They had lamb kidneys on sale on Sainsburys yesterday, I considered getting a few as treats. Is raw food safe to feed every now and again as a treat? Or are they likely to get the runs as they're not used to it?


Lucky is 6kg and costs me between £10 - £12 a month to feed. That's buying everything from Morrisons instore butchers, local butchers and the market. I would have thought Sainsburys would be quite an expensive source to be honest.

The only bones I generally avoid are larger weight bearing bones such as thick beef bones. The safer bones, IMO would consist of anything chicken, pork/lamb ribs, lamb spine, pig feet, rabbit, turkey and duck.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

I have 2 dogs and spend average of £15 a month to feed the pair of them. 

I order in bulk, get freebies from butchers and hunters and what not


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2013)

Its not the bone that causes the aggression! The bone is meaningless the reason the dog gets aggressive when you take it away is because he is enjoying it and your taking it off him which would react the same to anything else that tried to take his bone. Its all normal behaviour. 

Dogs should never be fed together weather they are fed raw or not raw bones do not turn a dog aggressive silly man handling does!

Establish areas that are the dogs feeding areas and you will have less problems. If you have two dogs or more don't let them eat together as for some it can be stressfull shairing feeding space.

You can teach a dog to give up his bone peacefully if you show him how from the begining but if you leave it you can't just expect your dog for letting take his food away.

We gravely miss-understand the nature of dogs when comes to their food because we are told all this alpha nonsense >.>


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Prowl said:


> Its not the bone that causes the aggression! The bone is meaningless the reason the dog gets aggressive when you take it away is because he is enjoying it and your taking it off him which would react the same to anything else that tried to take his bone. Its all normal behaviour.
> 
> Dogs should never be fed together weather they are fed raw or not raw bones do not turn a dog aggressive silly man handling does!
> 
> ...


I agree to a certain extent but it's entirely possible to raw feed and not have to lock your dogs away. All mine share the same space and are the best of friends, there is rarely a cross word between them, very, very occasionally Tau will tell Rhuna to b*gga off if she thinks she's too close to her bone.

Absolutely agree that if your dogs have problems with resource guarding not to exacerbate this, and control it with separate feeding areas etc, but just wanted to point out if you have a pup on raw from young, they can all get along and be fed without any problems as long as you supervise them and ensure they behave between themselves.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I agree to a certain extent but it's entirely possible to raw feed and not have to lock your dogs away. All mine share the same space and are the best of friends, there is rarely a cross word between them, very, very occasionally Tau will tell Rhuna to b*gga off if she thinks she's too close to her bone.
> 
> Absolutely agree that if your dogs have problems with resource guarding not to exacerbate this, and control it with separate feeding areas etc, but just wanted to point out if you have a pup on raw from young, they can all get along and be fed without any problems as long as you supervise them and ensure they behave between themselves.


This ^

Both my boys prefer to lie next to each other to eat their food, and ones a adult rescue so not brought up together as pups.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

PeteJC21 said:


> Is there any disadvantage to cutting out what people consider the riskier bones and just feeding the ones that are consider safer?
> 
> Roughly what do you spend a month per dog on a raw diet? I wasn't estimating it would be around £40-45 a month (probably more initially though) per dog.
> 
> They had lamb kidneys on sale on Sainsburys yesterday, I considered getting a few as treats. Is raw food safe to feed every now and again as a treat? Or are they likely to get the runs as they're not used to it?


Feeding two 20kg dogs costs us about £30-£40 a month. We don't get anything free!


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## PeteJC21 (Feb 10, 2011)

sharloid said:


> Feeding two 20kg dogs costs us about £30-£40 a month. We don't get anything free!


Buying from supermarkets?

What sort of meat on the bone do you buy?


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## IncaThePup (May 30, 2011)

I decided to get a whole small chicken in supermarket sales once and cut it up to see how JJ got on. I nicked the breasts for sunday dinner and one leg to go with salad..lol ... I gave my puppy JJ just the wings at first he worked out how to eat it, then gave him a leg but was later told not to give legs cos of a tiny thin bone in it, luckily JJ didn't choke on the legs he'd had before I found that out. 

he had half a carcass at a time the first time..happy that went well I did same again next shop but this time tried my elderly 12yr old dog on a wing and she has never had raw on her life and managed to work out how to eat them..I gave JJ the whole carcass the second time (small chicken). 

I tried him with raw lamb and raw carrot and he enjoyed that too..so I'm just trying to make space for an extra freezer now and deciding which company to get the minces from (wanted ones with offal & bone in)

Some have minimum order, other won't send via courier, others will but is really expensive. so I'm not decided yet.


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## RachRubyx (Jan 23, 2013)

Its very hard when you first hear about raw and think about feeding it as we always been told by vets and people thats its bad to give dogs bones and they can die. Of course this is cooked bones but people don't understand the difference which generally most of the time isn't there fault.

I started off with Natures Instinct as the bone is so grounded up almost in the mince there is no chance of choking or causing harm. Plus you know they getting the right amount of stuff they need as its done for you. Its pretty expensive and after your confidence has grown you can go out and do it all yourself.

My dog now has Chicken Legs, Chicken Wings, Lamb Ribs and Pork Ribs. I've yet to try her on chicken necks etc though just because find it hard to get in butchers. 

My thinking is why would all the top breeders (and i've found through researching just incase I go down the puppy route, that most of them do feed raw) feed raw and risk the death or injury of not only there much loved animals but how they make a living. It doesn't make sense for them to even chance that if the benefits weren't so great and the risk so low. There is plently of decent dry food out there they could feed but most pick raw. 

I would never put anyone down for not wanting to feed it though as its personal choice. However I do feel that you just have to be brave sometimes and researching helps alot.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Prowl said:


> Dogs should never be fed together weather they are fed raw or not raw bones do not turn a dog aggressive silly man handling does!


Not strictly true, we feed our dogs together all the time with no problems, including raw meaty bones. I'm not alone as can be seen...

[youtube_browser]-8tK2eSX6cA[/youtube_browser]

It's a case of knowing your dogs and I would prefer to try to train my dogs so I can leave them together. Care though does have to be taken.

------------------------------------------​As for the bone arguments. I think every raw feeder has sat with baited breath, almost panicking when they hear the crunch of bone the first few times. Then there's the panic of when dog starts regurgitating, having not chewed it enough. There's also the panic the first time a piece of bone is found in vomit. This isn't uncommon when starting. We've raw fed for a couple of years. I cannot remember the last time we saw bone, either in vomit or poop.

One article I will point out is http://www.colyerinstitute.org/pdf/diet.pdf A Veterinary Dental Consultant called David A. Fagan. The article states:


Soft diets tend to produce more bacterial plaque than firm diets
Excessively course, granular diets can produce periodontal disease through overuse and by direct injury of the supporting tissues
That generally covers both wet and dry food. So what is suggested:

There is a need to examine:

the reported food preferences in the wild,
known nutritional requirements of related domestic species,
occupational therapy value of food items not necessarily related to nutritional value

I'll leave you to consider these and point out something which sticks out to me:


> Carnivores, in their natural habitat, eat rabbits, mice, rodents, birds, etc., in toto: i.e., toenails, eyeballs, and intestines. This is the diet we must reproduce, not predigested TV dinners.


Now many will argue that dogs aren't carnivores. I believe they are with scavenging capabilities. I'm not saying there is no risk with bone but for me, benefit outweighs the risk.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I don't raw feed exclusively because I've got a massively picky dog, who'll also just decide not to eat randomly sometimes and so I wasn't happy that he was getting enough variety to make a balanced diet.

He's never had any issues with bones, he gets chicken backs, lamb necks and ribs and pig feet and eats them all fine.

He does however choke on kibble and treats while training and things like rawhide chews and pigs ears, the first because he tries to eat them as quickly as possible to get the next one and the second because they fit in his mouth so he tries to swallow them whole .

He's fine with the raw stuff because he can't possibly eat it without chewing it - as long as bones are an appropriate size they can't eat them too fast.


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