# Why did my dog bite me?



## jwardmagic (Sep 23, 2011)

I was training my 4 year old dog today, trying to teach him a new trick, to jump up. He was enjoying it and was excited and I was giving him praise (petting him and making a fuss) when he did it, and gave him a biscuit occasionaly. Then randomly he decided to bite me. He was in a good mood and excited and suddenly, in a split second he changed, growled and bit me. He then walked away, and went and sat in another room.

This is the exact order I did things. I showed him the biscuit and he ran to me. I said sit. He sat. I praised him: "goood boyy, you can sit! etc" petting him at the same time. I said down. He went down and I praised him the same way. I said jump. He jumped and I praised him and gave him the biscuit. 
I then did it again, but in a different order: jump to sit to down. When I went to pet him for sitting he suddenly and quite randomly jumped at me growling and bit me. He then growled showing his teeth, then walked out of the room and went to sit quietly in another room.

Why did he do this? Maybe his instinct because there was food around (my biscuit I was going to give him)? But it makes no sense. He was so happy, wagging his tail and enjoying it, and then (literally) out of nowhere he changed, showed his teeth and bit me within a split second.
He has never acted like this before apart from when he was a puppy or when he's been eating and someone has tried to take his food away (or when hes been ill). Maybe he might be ill?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Firstly I never teach the jump up trick in case the dog jumps up at someone he shouldn't. There are so many worries these days of dogs harming people, or being accused of harming people that I wouldn't risk teaching them to jump up to anyone. I had a re home Mal that was beautiful, very well behaved his only problem was that his former owner taught him to jump up for cuddles and because of this he failed two homes which would have been wonderful for him. Eventually got a home with someone who worked with him to stop this "trick"!

Anyway back to your post: Could he have hurt his leg in some way, could he possibly have hip dysplasia which would be painful when standing on his back legs. When he walks for a distance how is his gait , I mean does he look at all stiff on the back legs - called a "stilted Gait" Am just wondering if he could have hurt himself and that's why he bit you.

Large, heavy breeds should not stand on their hind legs particularly when young and their joints are developing as they could damage their developing joints.


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## Kivasmum (Aug 4, 2011)

Dogs don't usually just bite with no 'trigger' I would also think that maybe he hurt himself? Maybe as he sat after his jump he was in pain and as you reached out a bit sharply he snapped? Can't really think of any other reason a seemingly happy dog would just bite out of the blue if all you were doing was praising him? Sorry I can't be of anymore help


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Only you were there to see what was happening in the moments before the bite, it takes a few seconds for the dog to build up to a bite so you know what was the situation and *exact* process that triggered this.

The fact that the dog bit then removed himself I think is a good sign, knowing that he did "wrong" and not remain to further agress you. If it was food aggression the dog would have remained and followed through.

The nearest thing I have encountered similar to this was a semi-hard bite during fairly boisterous play as puppies, and the moment that he realised he had bitten me rather than the toy he reacted to appease me as I yelped and I responded in kind showing no sign of chastisement to him but just accepted grooming from him. (lick me)

Dogs don't bear a grudge so I would do some play again to bond and re-establish your confidence in the dog, and do the 'trick' training again - but maybe not try to join the different steps together too quickly.

If the dog is getting too excited you need to watch for this and tone down the training.

I too wondered if there might have been a flash of pain from a joint issue causing him to respond back at you as he assumed you had bitten him, the dog does not know where the pain he felt come from. But again you know your dog and if this could be a factor to consider.

This incident needs to be considered within the greater picture of your relationship with the dog, it would more likely be aggression if he pulls on the lead and does not allow you to interfere with 'his' food during meal times.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Just wanted to add that if it was due to pain a natural reaction is for them to go somewhere else and take themselves out of the situation. Having had a dog with severe dysplasia I knew when Flynn had hurt himself as he would immediately stop what he was doing and take himself off, often lying behind the sofa. I only ever heard him cry out once in pain so this is the only indication I ever got that he'd hurt himself and he'd be very quiet for a while.

Quite often you wouldn't know they are in pain as they rarely cry out with it.


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## jwardmagic (Sep 23, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Firstly I never teach the jump up trick in case the dog jumps up at someone he shouldn't. There are so many worries these days of dogs harming people, or being accused of harming people that I wouldn't risk teaching them to jump up to anyone. I had a re home Mal that was beautiful, very well behaved his only problem was that his former owner taught him to jump up for cuddles and because of this he failed two homes which would have been wonderful for him. Eventually got a home with someone who worked with him to stop this "trick"!
> 
> Anyway back to your post: Could he have hurt his leg in some way, could he possibly have hip dysplasia which would be painful when standing on his back legs. When he walks for a distance how is his gait , I mean does he look at all stiff on the back legs - called a "stilted Gait" Am just wondering if he could have hurt himself and that's why he bit you.
> 
> Large, heavy breeds should not stand on their hind legs particularly when young and their joints are developing as they could damage their developing joints.


He doesnt have a stilted gait and he has never seemed to be in pain before when standing on two legs. The vet has never noticed it either. However, Im open to all possibilities.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It doesn't have to be anything as drastic as HD he could have just sprained his ankle, or caught his claw. Hopefully pain was the cause and not any food related issue, can't see why it would be if it was a game.

Hope you get to the bottom of it.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

If it were pain it doesn't have to be in his legs, it could be anywhere, back, neck or a muscle, thats if it was pain, there were 3 actions, jump, sit & down each of these would put stress on different parts of the body.

The fact he walked out of the room and displayed clear signs he wanted to be alone or stop interacting probably said more at the time than anything as this followed what seemed to be his behavioural statement "_I have had more than enough of this_", have you ever thought he might not enjoy this trick stuff as much as you might think? it is after all a human pastime, not a dogs.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sounds to me like he wasn't enjoying it as much as you thought. A wagging tail just means a dog is aroused- excited, frustrated, unsure, nervy- and it can be present in the body language of a biting dog, a lot of the time.

Because he left the room afterwards does not mean he knows he has done 'wrong'- dogs don't have a concept of 'right and wrong' like we do. It just serves for him to create more distance away from you.

Have you checked out the body language sticky on here? Have a detailed read of calming signals. Your dog may have been showing you loads of stress-signs, and you weren't picking up, and so felt that he needed to bite to remove himself from the situation.

Food guarding is highly unlikely- it's not something that just appears from nowhere. Especially over a biscuit.

Also:



> from Manoy Moneelil-
> This incident needs to be considered within the greater picture of your relationship with the dog, it would more likely be aggression if he pulls on the lead and does not allow you to interfere with 'his' food during meal times.


How does pulling on lead mean aggression? :confused1:


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

I agree with Rottiefan that your dog wasn't enjoying the trick you were training or it could possibly be a soft tissue problem.

What you describe I do with my dogs all the time because I want them highly motivated in training and yes I frequently get bitten. The difference is the nips are excitement/play - its never meant.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Sounds to me like he was p'eed off with having to do so much just to get a biscuit and was frustrated. He doesn't seem to have enjoyed the tricks if he was the one who put an end to it


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Just to add a thread of mine "Kennels urgently needed " is about a Mal on the Mal forum who jumped up at a passer by when out (on lead) caused a scrarch snd later seized umder the DDA. The case is still waiting to go to court - very worrying!


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> How does pulling on lead mean aggression? :confused1:


I was trying to convey the concept of what is the manner of the dog in other situations. If the dog is pulling on his lead everywhere he goes, I am *not* saying that is any sign of aggression but the dog considers himself in charge of the walk. If the dog does not allow the owner close to food during meal times, again the dog sees himself of higher status than the owner.

I thought that using the expression "within the greater picture" was a suitable expression to communicate this concept?



> This incident needs to be considered within the greater picture of your relationship with the dog, it would more likely be aggression if he pulls on the lead and does not allow you to interfere with 'his' food during meal times.


Establish if this was an isolated incident/accident or a part of a puzzle that fits.

Do you disagree with this idea?


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## Andromeda (Nov 21, 2010)

If dog pulls on the lead that means none one have enough time/patience to teach a dog not to pull. Dogs walking five time faster than we do.
If dog pulls on the lead maybe he has problem with self control and something/someone makes him aroused.

If dog guards - he doesn't trust that hand around a bowl is good thing to happen. He is afraid that food will be taken away from him.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> I was trying to convey the concept of what is the manner of the dog in other situations. If the dog is pulling on his lead everywhere he goes, I am *not* saying that is any sign of aggression but the dog considers himself in charge of the walk. If the dog does not allow the owner close to food during meal times, again the dog sees himself of higher status than the owner.


Dominance rubbish


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2011)

luvmydogs said:


> Dominance rubbish


in your opinion!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

albert 1970 said:


> in your opinion!


Yes, and many others - those who employ more scientific methods, for example.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Yes, and many others - those who employ more scientific methods, for example.


lol, I hope you don't mean Dr Rachel Casey, Bristol Uni & her infamouse 'dominance' study sampling! for example

Bristol University, Quack Dog Dominance Study, Dr Rachel Casey Dr John Bradshaw 





.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Depends what you have a dog for, also how the dog has been trained or not trained.

My dogs are *not* banned from jumping up. 

Wow - I must be the worst, most irresponsible person on the planet.

They must be killer monsters !​
It is simply that we consider that when they are guarding and reacting to someone on the property - we don't want there to be any restraint in them defending, it is one of their jobs. As for formal 'guard dog' training - just a few hours with a serving Army trainer based on her experiences with domestic dogs.

A dog that is fearless in the face of a real threat is different from a lap dog that hides from it's shadow. The whole manner of the dog should be considered.

The point remains that the reason for biting the hand that feeds is unanswered - the OP is the only person that can comment or speculate based on the bigger picture - our collective thoughts either provide a clue or help eliminate the cause from the puzzle.

I support your right to express an opinion that something is rubbish - even if you do not offer an alternative suggestion to help the OP - please the stage is clear for your scientific methods...

Explain and educate us.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Firstly I never teach the jump up trick in case the dog jumps up at someone he shouldn't. There are so many worries these days of dogs harming people, or being accused of harming people that I wouldn't risk teaching them to jump up to anyone. I had a re home Mal that was beautiful, very well behaved his only problem was that his former owner taught him to jump up for cuddles and because of this he failed two homes which would have been wonderful for him. Eventually got a home with someone who worked with him to stop this "trick"!
> 
> Anyway back to your post: Could he have hurt his leg in some way, could he possibly have hip dysplasia which would be painful when standing on his back legs. When he walks for a distance how is his gait , I mean does he look at all stiff on the back legs - called a "stilted Gait" Am just wondering if he could have hurt himself and that's why he bit you.
> 
> Large, heavy breeds should not stand on their hind legs particularly when young and their joints are developing as they could damage their developing joints.


You took the words right out of my head! Please, you should be teaching your dog not to jump up under any circumstances. Supposing he were to jump up a child? He could terrify the mite of dogs forever.

Not to mention he could damage someone's clothing and you will end up footing the bill, if not worse.

I also agree with Malmum that a large breed dog should not be standing on its hind legs like that and it sounds to me as though he hurt himself, which he thought you had caused, which is why he bit you.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> I was trying to convey the concept of what is the manner of the dog in other situations. If the dog is pulling on his lead everywhere he goes, I am *not* saying that is any sign of aggression but the dog considers himself in charge of the walk. If the dog does not allow the owner close to food during meal times, again the dog sees himself of higher status than the owner.
> 
> I thought that using the expression "within the greater picture" was a suitable expression to communicate this concept?
> 
> ...


In charge of the walk? Higher status? Are you having a laugh?

Dogs pull because they want to get where they are going and you are not going fast enough for them. That is all. Dogs who food guard are insecure and think that their food is going to be taken away.

Have you by any chance subscribed to the very outdated theory that you should take the dog's food away to let him know who the pack leader is? If you have, then you have caused the food guarding.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> If it were pain it doesn't have to be in his legs, it could be anywhere, back, neck or a muscle, thats if it was pain, there were 3 actions, jump, sit & down each of these would put stress on different parts of the body.
> 
> The fact he walked out of the room and displayed clear signs he wanted to be alone or stop interacting probably said more at the time than anything as this followed what seemed to be his behavioural statement "_I have had more than enough of this_", have you ever thought he might not enjoy this trick stuff as much as you might think? it is after all a human pastime, not a dogs.


My goodness, SB, are you okay? You have actually said something that I totally agree with:


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> I was trying to convey the concept of what is the manner of the dog in other situations. If the dog is pulling on his lead everywhere he goes, I am *not* saying that is any sign of aggression but the dog considers himself in charge of the walk. If the dog does not allow the owner close to food during meal times, again the dog sees himself of higher status than the owner.
> 
> I thought that using the expression "within the greater picture" was a suitable expression to communicate this concept?
> 
> ...


I disagree with the idea, yes. Largely because it implies a whole host of cognitive abilities on behalf of the dog, and completely under-estimates and over-estimates their relationships with other dogs and humans, all at the same time.

'The greater picture' you are referring to is, presumably, the out-dated theory that because dogs descend from a now well-extinct species of wolf, dogs must pack up with their human carers. There is a lot wrong with this idea, and there has been enough discussion on this forum to last an eternity so I'm not going to go into the specifics.

Dogs learn via associations- consequences for their behaviours. If a behaviour earns a reinforcement, they will most likely do that behaviour more often. This is proven, through many scientific experiments. But what has not been proven is that dogs conform to the concept of 'status' or form relationships based on hierarchical rank.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Dominance rubbish





albert 1970 said:


> in your opinion!





luvmydogs said:


> Yes, and many others - those who employ more scientific methods, for example.


Dominance is not rubbish, per se. It is a concept in animal behaviour. But that does not mean it applies to every animal and organism on the face of the earth. Canids are one of those animals! Wild canine relationships have little to do with dominance/subordinance, and our domestic dogs have even less.

@Albert- whilst everyone can have an opinion, dominance is a scientific concept in this setting. That means that we need to have an opinion about that concept, not just ignore it. If you disagree with the scientific definition, fair enough. If you do not take the time to understand the concept in the field of animal behaviour, then discussion just deteriorates- as we all know!


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## Corinthian (Oct 13, 2009)

SleepyBones said:


> lol, I hope you don't mean Dr Rachel Casey, Bristol Uni & her infamouse 'dominance' study sampling! for example
> 
> Bristol University, Quack Dog Dominance Study, Dr Rachel Casey Dr John Bradshaw
> 2. Bristol University, Quack Dog Dominance Study, Dr Rachel Casey Dr John Bradshaw - YouTube
> ...


You really have nothing of value to add


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Guess who-_"Dogs pull because they want to get where they are going and you are not going fast enough for them"_


Oh right, so theres only one reason dogs pull, and thats because the owners not going fast enough for them, hhmmm, did you do your degree at Bristol Uni may I ask?

As pulling damages dogs backs, neck, trachea etc (Hallgren 1991) should we conclude from your Bristol science level conclusion that only licensed joggers should own dogs? on welfare grounds.

Sample - Non jogger licensed person not going fast enough for dog







> You really have nothing of value to add


Yes, my welfare question above and the sampling & data collection methods used by Bristol Uni, in the link you pasted, which some members of this board claim prove there is no such thing as dominance, & by implication no hierarchal structure in a gregarious species or that dogs are not a greagarious species as another option to their implications, in the national & global pack of domestic canines.


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

Still waiting for the "anti-dominance/science" theory to be explained to help the OP.

BTW and just to be clear I have at no point suggested that dominance one way or the other is a factor - but I asked for the bigger picture to be considered. I ask the question.



> Dogs who food guard are insecure and think that their food is going to be taken away.


My dogs are not insecure and seem not too bothered when I say "leave it" to test that if we need to recover a dropped lump of cooked chicken or bag of chocolate coated macadamia nuts they will respond, We do this to train that our requests are normal and happen from time to time. But they are happy when they get their bowl/bone back. Does that mean they are dominated or just obedient?

I honestly care less what label you choose to place on me - the dogs do as they are asked by my wife and the kids too - makes for a happy secure family.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Manoy Moneelil said:


> Still waiting for the "anti-dominance/science" theory to be explained to help the OP.


Have a search of the forum, or look at scientific articles like:

Drews (1993)
ingentaconnect The Concept and Definition of Dominance in Animal Behaviour

Bradshaw et al (2009)
http://www.trainabull.com/articles/dominance is old hat.pdf

Or publications such as:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Bradshaw et al (2009)
> http://www.trainabull.com/articles/d...0old hat.pdf


That study is a study on semantics which the title asks the question "Is dominance a useful construct" - quote: "_When used correctly to describe a relationship between 2 individuals, it tends to be misapplied as a motivation for social interactions_"

But when Bristol's Casey gave publication quotes she gave the sensationalist terms and innuendos that it was a study on dominance in dogs & not the use of the word.

Bristol Uni publication
Bristol University | News from the University | Dog behaviour and training

Related Vid below:
Peer Review of the integrity of a related Cordoba Uni study & Bristol Uni Study & standards of education on canines in both countries.

1.Bristol University vs Cordoba University. Dr John Bradshaw, Bringing UK Science Into Disrepute? - YouTube


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> That study is a study on semantics which the title asks the question Is dominance a useful construct"  quote: "_When used correctly to describe a relationship between 2 individuals, it tends to be misapplied as a motivation for social interactions_"
> 
> But when Bristols Casey gave publication quotes she gave the sensationalist terms and innuendos that it was a study on dominance in dogs & not the use of the word.
> 
> ...


Sleepy, do you suffer from short term memory loss? _I get it_. You don't like Bristol University, or their biology department. I have different views to you; I think the paper offers a good synthesis of the behaviour of wild and domestic canids. True, their data on domestic dogs in the Dogs Trust sanctuary was not published, but I think it was still a good, ethological study, devoid of gross interpretations and misconstrued conclusions that the concept of dominance always implies.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> but I think it was still a good, ethological study


Well if it was a publicity stunt & attention seeking as the reviews suggest, as the UK media reported the information as it was given to them by Bristol and as some individuals on this forum have been reporting it as 'scientific fact', then the researchers sure got top spot international stardom in abundance on a P1 Google international search, though I'm not sure if its the sort of stardom most other starlets want.

P1 Google International
http://tinyurl.com/5t3a85b

Telegraph Online
TV dog behaviour programmes 'useless and dangerous' - Telegraph


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

SleepyBones said:


> Well if it was a publicity stunt as the reviews suggest, as the UK media reported the information as it was given to them by Bristol and as some individuals on this forum have been reporting it as 'scientific fact', then the researchers sure got international stardom in abundance on a P1 Google international search.
> 
> P1 Google International
> dogs dr rachel casey - Google Search
> ...


Sleepy, I have seen your posts many times on many different kinds of website. I was reading a Facebook thread the other day and it was clear it is you who was posting against Bristol University, again, under many different aliases. All the other posters on the thread, including Leonard 'Buzz' Cecil, knew it too. It is clear that it is you posting on You Tube under many different channel names. I don't know what you have against Bristol Uni, nor do I care, quite frankly, because you have yet to prove to me anything. The Google search is full of website posts from you. I am not fooled into believing that the person in all your videos is anyone but you.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

> Sleepy, I have seen your posts many times on many different kinds of website. I was reading a Facebook thread the other day


Interesting, I had no idea I had a 'vivid imagination fan club' following, maybe I should get some 
'I love SleebyBones' t-shirts made and sell em on ebay

or SleepyBones @ http://tinyurl.com/5t3a85b


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

When a dog suddenly changes in an instant and has never displayed such behaviour before, then my money would be on him hurting himself, it could be a twist, a sprain, just a jolt, or something that hasn't manifested itself yet.

My eldest girl smashed a disc in her neck, and looking back, we think we can pinpoint when it happened - but it was when the debris got into her spinal column she started exhibiting symptoms - thankfully she had surgery and made a complete recovery.

I have to agree that it isn't a good idea to teach your dog to jump up - they could jump at someone that doesn't like it and dog wary people can interpret it as aggression.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Actually, teaching a dog to jump on cue is a good way of fixing a problem behaviour of jumping up. Take a look at this vid:
Putting a Dog&#39;s Unwanted Behavior on Stimulus Control (to get Rid of it)-Jumping - YouTube


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Actually, teaching a dog to jump on cue is a good way of fixing a problem behaviour of jumping up. Take a look at this vid:
> Putting a Dog's Unwanted Behavior on Stimulus Control (to get Rid of it)-Jumping - YouTube


Possibly you're right, but I don't think that was the case here. I think the OP was just trying to teach the dog to jump up as a new behaviour or trick.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Possibly you're right, but I don't think that was the case here. I think the OP was just trying to teach the dog to jump up as a new behaviour or trick.


Yes, but people are suggesting it will make the dog jump up naturally at humans. This is not the case, if the behaviour has been taught with a specific cue. However, it would be more difficult to get it right if it has been trained unconsciously.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Rottiefan said:


> Yes, but people are suggesting it will make the dog jump up naturally at humans. This is not the case, if the behaviour has been taught with a specific cue. However, it would be more difficult to get it right if it has been trained unconsciously.


The trouble is - people often don't realise what they are doing - one of my girls will happily walk around on two feet (in fact, she spends a fair bit of her time on them - she's like a performing seal ) - but she never jumps at anyone else.

Conversely - I have one girl who still jumps at everything at two years old - and she doesn't get the message - you would have a hard job training her to jump to order.

It's a thin line sometimes - nevertheless, my money is still on the dog being in pain and why it did what it did


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