# Breeding my Labrador



## BRUISER (Jan 18, 2010)

Hi, 
My name is Sophie and i'm hoping someone can help me. 

I'm looking for information on breeding my labrador. 
His name is Bruiser and his nearly 2 years old. 
At present he is not KC registered but my partner and i know we have to do this but unsure how. 
Bruiser is such a wonderful dog and we have always said we want 2. From the moment we brought Bruiser home he has made us so happy, his such a loving, intelligent and trust worthy dog so we thought why not breed him and keep the puppy. 
We are not doing this for profit we are doing this out of love of our great dog. 

If any of you have any information please reply. 
We have contacted the breeder we had Bruiser from but to my surprise she wasn't very helpful at all, infact she told me not to do it. 

Thank you 
Sophie


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Hi and welcome to the forum,

Unfortunately you are not able to KC register your dog, only the breeder can do that and from what you've said that probably wont happen 

I really would suggest you buy another puppy rather than breed bruiser, maybe one from similar lines? Getting him ready to be used as a stud would cost about twice as much as buying a pup (fully health testing a dog is about £1000) and you really would need to prove him in the showring or in the field to justify offering him at stud as there are so many wonderful stud dogs out there already.

Also, do bear in mind that using a dog at stud can change his temperment, make them more dominant and harder to live with.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

You might be better to repost this in the breeding section.

The breeder is the only one that can KC register your dog. If she wont, there is nothing you can do.

IF you decide to go ahead with studding him (very dodgy if he isnt KC registered) then he will need to be hip and elbow scored and eye tested by a specialist. I think there are some other tests aswell, but not sure off the top of my head.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Unfortunately you cannot register him - only his breeder can do this.

If you want 2 dogs, then I would recommend that you buy another pup. The problem is that even if you do find a bitch whose owner will use him, a) it is likely that they will be a poor quality, unhealth tested bitch and b) they will have far more than one pup - what will happen to the others. Whilst well bred puppies are always in demand, there is a glut of puppies being unsold because of the current climate. 

The best thing you can do for him is let him be your pet. Studding him is not easy - the bitch could turn and attack him, she may panic and cause injury to him and it could change his previous good temperament into a dominant dog that is hard to live with as a pet and aggressive towards other males.

If your breeder told you not to do it, I would suggest that she doesn't think he is breeding quality, or has a fault that shouldn't be passed on. Perhaps this is why he wasn't kc registered when you bought him as she only sold him to you as a pet.

Please just enjoy him for the lovely dog he is. There is a lot more to studding and breeding than meets the eye and in addition to the considerable costs, is not without risk to both your dog and the bitch.

Much better and less expensive to buy another puppy. The vast majority of labradors have wonderful temperaments and dispositions like Bruiser so you won't lose out and Bruiser will be much happier for not having sired a litter.


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## WeimyLady (Jan 3, 2010)

With the greatest of respects, the owner of a bitch can pick any stud dog they want...including those that are KC registered, conformation or show champions, that are fully health tested. Why would they want to use yours? again, that is meant in the nicest possible way. But there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of lovely Labradors with great temperaments...how is your dog any different from all of those? just being "nice" isn't reason enough to breed. Your dog needs more then that. 

Neuter your dog and a puppy from a similar breeding. Given the number of Labradors that are bred in this country, it shouldn't be hard to find a dog that is a very close relative of yours.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I wouldnt put him to stud either, also something to think about is his lovely nature is down to you rather than just his breeding so get another lab of the sames lines and treat him, care for him just as you have done this one.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

There are lots of Labradors with a nice temprement. It does not mean you should stud him x


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## welshdoglover (Aug 31, 2009)

Thousands of dogs are in rescue shelters right now as a result of the credit crunch.

Please don't add to the problem.

I'm sure he is a wonderful dog x


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## BRUISER (Jan 18, 2010)

Hi, 

Thank you all for your Commons. 

I feel a bit disappointed in commons i have received but honesty is best, so thank you. 
Its very disappointing to see the breeder is the only person who can KC register MY dog. It wasn't till a few weeks when i looked through his papers that i noticed he wasn't KC registered. 
On the web site they say all dogs are KC registered, good for pets, working, breeding etc etc. 
As they are licensed Labrador breeders should they have this on there web site? 
If Bruiser wasn't good quality or has a fault, shouldn't they have told us when we brought him (even though we still would of brought him)

At present Bruiser is rather happy all the time and likes to befriend pillows if you catch my drift. If we don't go through with breeding him would you advise with get him the snip? I have heard this can also change a dog. 
But i have also heard leaving them can also leave problems later on in life. 

I'm looking at this from both sides now. 
Some of you say Bruiser's temprement could change if he sired a litter. 
Well what if he got off the lead one day in the park and chased a bitch, Would this still change him? is that not nature? 

I still would love to Breed him but only once, but i will take all your comments into consideration as i do not wish to put Bruiser in danger. 

Thank you all again for your feedback. 

Sophie  (& Bruiser)


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I've been involved in animals for over 30 years, and in that time I have seen many that I fell in love with for various reasons.

My first question to someone owning an animal I've liked, _*isn't*_ usually "are you going to breed from it, and if so, can I have one?"

The thing I always ask, is, where did he/she come from?

The reason being, if I wanted one just like the one I'm looking at, I'd have more chance of getting that from the original breeder who holds the bloodlines and knows the background behind them.

Breeding from one you like the look of, doesn't guarantee you'll get what you see... Accurately predicting what comes out of a certain mating is something learned with experience of the lines.

You'll have much more chance of getting a dog just like your loved boy, by going back to the breeder and asking him/her about his close relatives and what you like about your dog... than if you tried to replicate one yourself from a non-registered mating.

It takes years and lots of work to get certain characteristics into a line but only one misguided mis-breeding to lose these qualities. The person who originally bred your dog is the best person to get another one like him from.

PS: not sure what you mean by Commons.


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## RachyBobs (Oct 18, 2009)

BRUISER said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you all for your Commons.
> 
> ...


It is a bit sad that only the breeder can - if she is advertising as KC and she is a licensed breeder then she is advertising wrongling 'false advertisement' and she can be reported for this, do you have her website handy to PM me and I will have a look, also report her to the KC. Getting him neutered usually calms dogs down. They can also put weight on quickly so watching his diet is nessercery. Also once a dog has had a 'taste' if you like of being a stud that will change him more rapidly that being nutered. I have seen Wolfhounds used a studs on 'one off occasion' and the first time they get a taste of breeding they want it all the time and with anything that moves ie. legs, male dogs :lol: the owners of that dog said they regreted that move and got him castrated a month later to stop the humping behaviour round there house. Not only did he hump he leaked all round the home.. not nice when you have carpet 

Good Luck Hun  xx


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

BRUISER said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you all for your Commons.
> 
> ...


What papers have you got with him exactly?  if he is not registered i cant understand what papers he has so it would be interesting if you could tell us exactly what you got with him, maybe you just didnt transfer him into your name 

Neutering is a good idea if he is likely to chase bitches. The bitch owner would not be happy with your dog chasing and potentially injuring her bitch  If you are not going to breed him it really is the best idea to neuter him, it will make him a better pet as he wont be humping things  Even if you do breed him only the once there would still be a whole lot of other pups to rehome which is a very difficult task, and even more so with unregistered labs. People are having to hand whole litters of labs into rescue at the moment because they cant rehome them.

If you have any concerns about the breeder or any questions feel free to pm me their details. I have owned and bred labs for many years and i may well know of them, unfortunately there are a number of "breeders" who make wonderful claims about their dogs but they turn out to be lies. Labs are one of the worst breeds in terms of puppy farming!!


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Gonna have to agree with everyone else i'm afraid! Please don't breed from your dog. Just because he's 'nice' doesn't mean he's breeding material.

There is litter upon litter of unwanted puppies and thousands of unwanted Labs and Lab crosses in rescues up and down the country that are homeless through no fault of their own, why add to those numbers with a poorly bred litter from an untested dog? Labradors are hugely overbred imo, we don't need any more badly bred litters.

I understand that your intentions were good, but it's not a good idea. My terrier is a 'nice' dog, but she is also blind through genetic problems (she's a rescue so we had no idea of this at the time) so we would never dream of breeding from her (not that we would anyway) because we just don't know what genetic problems she may pass on to her pups, and the same could happen with your dog.

You're also not guaranteed to get a pup with the same temperament of your dog. It's 50/50 whether they inherit the male's personality or the females... or obviously a bit of both. You could end up with poorly temperamented pups if you are not extremely careful choosing a really good bitch, which is not good.

I honestly would not suggest breeding from your dog. There are enough unwanted dogs out there already, we do not need more.


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Jess2308 said:


> and you really would need to prove him in the showring or in the field to justify offering him at stud as there are so many wonderful stud dogs out there already.
> .


After recent threads, it would seem the consensus is that this is not necessary. However, you should have your dog checked for quality and confirmation and temperament by someone knowledgeable in the breed. And of course all the required health tests.

Having said that, now is not a good time to breed litters, and even though you would not have the litter with you - you still have a responsibility to those puppies.


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

alaun said:


> After recent threads, it would seem the consensus is that this is not necessary. However, you should have your dog checked for quality and confirmation and temperament by someone knowledgeable in the breed. And of course all the required health tests.
> 
> Having said that, now is not a good time to breed litters, and even though you would not have the litter with you - you still have a responsibility to those puppies.


For a stud dog who could produce hundreds of puppies (i know the OP said just one litter but theres the potential that he could be offered at stud in the future) i do think it is vital that he is proven worthy of breeding in the ring or field. And given that fact that bitch owners have thousands of champion studs to choose from it would make sense to prove a stud before using him. I breed labs and i would not consider a dog who hasnt proven himself, and preferably had pups that are doing well too


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

BRUISER said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you all for your Commons.
> 
> ...


trust me on this one when i say breeding you boy is not the answer.... im not saying it to be mean but out of the protection of your boy, mating is a VERY dangerous procedure, i have known of dogs die during mating. through ruptures, heart attacks etc.

also, fathers and sons quite frequently dont get on and will fight. (im not saying in every case before you all jump down my throat lol) and a bitch and you run the risk of accidents so would have to have one or both neutered.

also, mating will more often than not cause your boy to have character changes, urinating in house, aggression towards other males, dominance amongst people, straying to find a bitch.

your breed is very popular and even the best bred puppies cannot be sold, it is both the bitches owner and the studs owner to take on puppies that cant be sold, get returned at years later when behaviour problems occur. could you cope with 5 puppies plus your boy who has become aggressive, could you afford all neutering in puppies?

if your dog is not registered with kennel club you cannot have your dog health tested. could you live with yourself bringing 8+ puppies in to the world all with health problems?

if you want to breed i suggest that you spend a lot of time looking for a well bred bitch puppy and show or work her, then at 2 years think about breeding her (if health tests allow) to a well tested stud, whose pedigree suits hers and who has gained a title in something (work or show).

i seriously advise you against using your boy as disappointing as it is, but just treasure him for what he is.

i do not mean for this post to sound sharp, but im [email protected] with words lol


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## tiddliewink (Mar 31, 2011)

Just recently joined this forum and pleased with the sensible answers to this thread. (when you join something, you dont know who is on there).

Hope you have decided to just enjoy Bouncer and buy another when you are ready, from a knowledgeable, health testing breeder.

I would have asked WHY they didnt register him. Money??


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

tiddliewink said:


> Just recently joined this forum and pleased with the sensible answers to this thread. (when you join something, you dont know who is on there).
> 
> Hope you have decided to just enjoy Bouncer and buy another when you are ready, from a knowledgeable, health testing breeder.
> 
> I would have asked WHY they didnt register him. Money??


It only costs £12 to register a pup so I doubt it


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Would you have room in the future to take on a pup your dog sired if the new owner could no longer keep it. Not just at the puppy stage but sometime well in the future. I have possibly got 2 whippets coming to me soon a bitch I bred and a dog one of my males sired. They will stay with me either permanatly or until I can find them a home together. The male has dog aggression problems so I have to reorganise all my males so I can fit him in safely. These 2 are 4 years old and nearly 6 years old.

As others have said I would have him castrated and get a nice bitch to show or work the think of maybe having a litter a few years down the line.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2011)

BRUISER said:


> Hi,
> My name is Sophie and i'm hoping someone can help me.
> 
> I'm looking for information on breeding my labrador.
> ...


Bruiser sounds like a lovely PET! enjoy him!


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## Vampyria (Dec 14, 2009)

This thread is over a year old!


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Vampyria said:


> This thread is over a year old!


lol........................


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

Like the lady above I would like to stud my lab.
He is 5 yrs old and KC registered, and in his 5 generation pedigree has 26 FTCH so comes fro good stock although he has been brought up as a pet. I have over the last 6 months got extremely interested in starting to breed these lovely dogs but dont know where to start. Do all you users agree with previous statements and think I shouldnt breed my dog either? 

Any information or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

At 5 years old he's really to old to start a stud career.

I'm sure he's a lovely boy, but 26 FTCH in a pedigree is pretty common in working dogs and no good breeder would use him if he was just a pet. They would want to see proof of his working ability either in test or trial awards or at the very least see him out working in the field.

There is so much to learn about breeding and IMO a stud dog owner needs to know a lot more than a bitch owner, so starting off with a stud dog is not the way to go.


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks Rocco

However if a breeder decided to have a look at him and liked what they saw is it a possibility they would use him. I have also asked the vet regarding his age and he said it wasnt a problem being 5 so im a little bit confused. 

Do you know of anyway I can find out more via books etc or any other useful materials?

thanks


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

also rocco what does "at least see him out workink in the field" entail?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

First bit of advice - ignore what your vet says about breeding. Few vets have any knowledge of breeding apart from the basic mechanics and what to do when things go wrong. I have a different vet for breeding as my excellent regular vet has so little experience and knowledge (and happily advised me to find another vet for breeding related issues).

As far as a good breeder looking and liking what they saw.... well good breeders don't just look at a dog and like what they see - finding a stud doesn't work like that.

To start with, a bitch owner has the best dogs in the country to choose from as it is the bitch owner that chooses the stud dog, not the other way round. They will therefore look for the best examples who are proven in their field - in your boy's case, working. If you don't work and compete with him, how are they going to know about him. Even if you advertise they are going to want to see what he is like and what his abilities are. If you don't work him they will having nothing to see.

The other thing you need to get sorted before anyone will even give him a second look is health tests.

For a working lab I would recommend hips, elbows, annual eye test, pra and cnm dna tests. This will probably set you back around £500 in total. That needs to be done before you even consider offering him at stud and you have no guarantee anyone will want him.

If you are interested in breeding I would forget about using your boy and just enjoy him as a pet. However, you can start to get involved with the breed - decide whether you want to go the working or show route/type and learn about those areas. Once involved you will be in a better position to get a quality pup that you could consider breeding from at a later stage. However, nothing is guaranteed and you have no way of knowing whether any pup you buy will grow up to be breeding quality.


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

Yes I know it's the breeder withthe bitch who chooses the stud hence the reason I asked if they liked his appearance and pedigree! So without anybtraining in the field is it possible 2 see from basic tests whether he would be any good? His hips and elbows have been tested 3/4 and 0/0 respectively. 

It's down to me the dog has never worked in field or been shown but as mother and father and so on were all champions what's to say he couldn't have been. So basically what I'm trying to find out is there any way of getting him used as a stuf where hopefully a pup I get from him I can use in the field as i will have learned a lot more about it by them?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

As someone who competes and works my labradors, I would never choose a dog on it's pedigree and don't know anyone else who would. The reality is the a dog can have an excellent pedigree and not turn out to be a good working dog. I would want to see his working ability (and personally, in competition, not just on a shoot although I know some do).

What is his breeding out of interest?


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

What do you mean by what is his breeding? As I say I'm new to this!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

BRUISER said:


> I still would love to Breed him but only once,


WHY? I've not read every response - so apologies if this has already been asked - but WHY do you want to breed him 'just once?'

What do you expect to get out of it? a clone of your dog? it very rarely happens.

I've got 7 Labradors - including 3 generations of my own breeding.

The grandmother is a pet, I fully health tested and bred to improve my lines - carrying out 4 years of pedigree research and developing a database of over 30K dogs - I spoke to over 50 stud dog owners, frequented the shows, studied the progeny before I picked the dog I wanted - around a 16 hour round trip away.

Having done all that for my pet bitch - what could you dog offer over and above some superb dogs and producers I decided against? (aside from the fact he isn't KC registered so I couldn't show any puppies I keep back).

My second generation girls are fabulous - very different - but both an improvement on mum - plus I acquired a lifelong mentor and friend from my first stud dog owner - could you offer that?

My third generation I went through exactly the same process again - expanding my database to over 50K dogs - and physically and conformationally I improved again.

All my girls have superb temperaments (as do my boys) - but clones of one another they most definitely are not.

My eldest girl is my 'humador' - she's fantastic - her daughters are fantastic -the grand-daughter is a complete nutcase - she's so nutty my other girls won't play with her and even my boy runs away from her - yet mum and dad are the most laid back dogs you could ever care to meet.

The point I'm making is when you do everything right, as I did at great expense and a fair amount of headaches and heartache along the way, things can and do go wrong - so breeding from an unregistered dog whose own breeders possible ethics are questionable - are you aware of how many things can go wrong?

Forget the mating - and the risks to both the dog and bitch - what about the risks to the offspring?

You can do all the health tests on your boy yes - but you know little to nothing about his ancestry - as you have no guarantee of parentage - so you can't trace back the family - look at health results / no health results - you can't make informed decisions, and for dogs, this is almost worse than bitches - a bitch can only produce a relatively small number of pups during her breeding life - a dog OTOH can literally produce hundreds if not more.

If your boy is mated - will he be off on the scent of every bitch going - if you mate him and it goes well - whatever you say now, it won't stop at one - and when a pup gets hip or elbow dysplasia or develops eye problems - will you be able to put your hand on heart and say yes, I did everything in my power with the knowledge I had to prevent this - you can't - because even before you start - you cannot authenticate his ancestry.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> What do you mean by what is his breeding? As I say I'm new to this!


I mean who are his dam and sire? You say his mother and father are champions. In all honesty, I'd be very surprised - FTCH to FTCH matings are pretty rare and trying to get a pup from such a mating is extremely difficult even for people involved in the sport - for such a pup to go to a pet home is inconceiveable.

However, if you don't know his dam and sire, what is his kc registered name as it will be possible to trace his breeding from that.


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

His KC name is Riflemans Dawn. I could be mistaken about both been FTCH and don't have pedigree 2 hand as I'm about to go to bed. If you can be bothered and have the time I'd very much appreciate you taking a look and giving me an opinion. As I say I'm interested in getting involved in the breeding side, love horses and have a race horse aswell but first love is labradors as I've had then from a kid in our family. So any information at all would be greatly appreciated. I will try send you a pm with my e mail address and if you find the time I'd love to hear your thoughts on my dogs pedigree and what I should do next to get to a stage where I'm breeding and showing my own labs. 

Regards

James


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

No problem 

Because he hasn't been health tested, his parents are not showing up on the KC database, so when you find his pedigree post his parents and grandparents. He doesn't have a known affix, so sounds more like pet breeding so you may need to go further back in his pedigree.

Off to bed myself too so will check in tomorrow.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jazza said:


> His KC name is Riflemans Dawn. I could be mistaken about both been FTCH and don't have pedigree 2 hand as I'm about to go to bed. If you can be bothered and have the time I'd very much appreciate you taking a look and giving me an opinion. As I say I'm interested in getting involved in the breeding side, love horses and have a race horse aswell but first love is labradors as I've had then from a kid in our family. So any information at all would be greatly appreciated. I will try send you a pm with my e mail address and if you find the time I'd love to hear your thoughts on my dogs pedigree and what I should do next to get to a stage where I'm breeding and showing my own labs.
> 
> Regards
> 
> James


I'd be interested in seeing it if you didn't mind 

What I would say is if your dog is working bred as you allude in your post, and you are interested in breeding and showing - then I would strongly recommend you look around for a show bred pup from a big kennel and use that as your foundation bitch.

Happy to have a look at the pedigree though which will give a better indication of the type of breeding your dog is from.


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

I have nonproblem with you seeing it bid you know a way of doing it through KC site that's ok I'd not I can scan or fax it to you tomorrow


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

Off top of my head his dad is "rod Wallace of leadburn" I will confirm tomorrow . Thanks


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

Sorry swarthy I hadn't realised I had a reply from another person( not so good on these forums)

Yeah no problem I'd also appreciate you having a look and if you can give advice then great. 

Hope to hear from you both tomorrow.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jazza said:


> Off top of my head his dad is "rod Wallace of leadburn" I will confirm tomorrow . Thanks


ah ok - so if that's right - dad is a FT CH - that's a seriously working pedigree on the sire's side 

Dad's dam (Brindlebay Dawn) is from two FT CH if that helps 

Unfortunately, as Rocco says, because your boy hasn't been health-tested, it's impossible to get his details from the database 

But if dad is right (and guessing it is as you are unlikely to pick the name out of thin air) then I have dads pedigree on my database


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

If your happy sending me an e mail address or 
Fax number il send a copy of the pedigree 2 Moro for you to look at. And if it seems worthwhile I will get all tests required done. Also if you look on "leadburn gundogs" website you can see his dad on there page under stud dogs. I just want some direction on what to do next and if anythin is possible with my own dog!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jazza said:


> If your happy sending me an e mail address or
> Fax number il send a copy of the pedigree 2 Moro for you to look at. And if it seems worthwhile I will get all tests required done. Also if you look on "leadburn gundogs" website you can see his dad on there page under stud dogs. I just want some direction on what to do next and if anythin is possible with my own dog!


I will PM you my email address.

It depends what you mean when you say "if anything is possible with my own dog".

If you mean "can I show him" - impossible to say without seeing him, however initial response based on dads only pedigree is likely to be no

YOu dad's boy looks like abrador and clearly being a FT CH has more than proved himself in the field - and if you really want to do something with him, then my advice would be to look to the working side of things, and get him out there.

I am not really the best person to advise you on that - but I am sure Rocco will be happy to point you in the right direction 

I don't know how old he is - but if he proves himself in the field - then that follows limited opportunities (usually at Breed Club shows) to 'walk the carpet' of the showring, but highly unlikely to make him a showdog.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, as I said, impossible to truly say without seeing him - but there is a divide between working and showbred dogs.

So - if you want to work him, the basics are there, and you have a good starting point - probably better than many who have done well.

IF he does well (I am not talking FT CH here) but a dog who can more than prove itself in what he was bred for, and you feel it is worth getting the health tests done, then try and find yourself a mentor - as bitch owners often need to be guided through from mating to actually selling the pups and anything inbetween - you don't have that experience - but a mentor can help a lot.

My friend has recently had one of her showbred successful show boys used at stud - she was lucky one of them was a good show kennel, but I've also been able to plug a few gaps and point her in the direction of information she may need to advise the novice bitch owner who used her boy.

====================================================

If you want to show, my recommendation would be to start going to shows (without your boy) and looking at the dogs in the ring and the 'type' of dog you like and then get yourself another pup - this could take a while, I waited over a year for my first pup, and I know others who have waited longer - so the sooner you start looking, the sooner you are on your way 

If I can help you at all with this, please do not hesitate to ask, happy to point you in the direction of responsible show breeders within the distance you are prepared to travel (and the further you are prepared to travel, the more chance of getting what you want / need for the ring and a good foundation bitch for your lines.

If you do decide to also go down the working route with your boy, who knows, if you do things right, you may become a responsible dual purpose breeder of the future, recognising the balance between dog, showring and capability.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted by jazza
> If your happy sending me an e mail address or
> Fax number il send a copy of the pedigree 2 Moro for you to look at. And if it seems worthwhile I will get all tests required done. Also if you look on "leadburn gundogs" website you can see his dad on there page under stud dogs. I just want some direction on what to do next and if anythin is possible with my own dog!


Hi James - I'll happily look at his pedigree and will pm my email, however, the most important thing to say is that noone in the working world will choose a stud on the strength of it's pedigree. I suspect it may happen in the show world, but not in the working world. Billy Steel's Rod Wallace is a very good dog who has thrown some nice puppies, but a lot will depend on the dam's side too. It's not uncommon to use a very good stud on a mediocre working or pet bitch and while they may produce nice puppies, will not necessarily produce dogs of breeding quality.

As far as what to de next and if anything is possible with your own dog, that depends on whether you are talking about breeding from him or getting into the dog world with a view to breeding in the future.

Looking at breeding from your own dog I would say the only option for you is to breed pets. As said, no working breeders would give him a second look, regardless of his pedigree. They want a dog that has proven himself in the field and why would they go to your dog when they could use Rod Wallace of Leadburn himself . Obviously being used by show folk is not going to happen either so this leaves you with breeding pets. It could work, but there are several stumbling blocks. Firstly, get him health tested - hips, elbows eyes and depending on whether the dam has been dna tested clear, you may need to get dna tests done. That will probably set you back £500. Then I'm guessing you will need to advertise him to pet owners. The problem you will have here is that pet breeders who are doing things properly will also be looking at the best, proven health tested dogs too so why would they go to an unproven one and those not bothered are not the sort who you would want your boy to go to anyway. So realistically, it's not going to be easy.

Personally, I think you will be much better to forget about breeding from your own dog. He could however, give you an excellent start into the dog world and seeing where you want to go. You mention showing and if that is the case you will be looking at and for a completely different type of labrador to your boy. If you want to show then Swarthy will be able to give better advice than I can, but I would get out to shows and see what type of dog you like, talk to breeders and take it from there.

If you are interested in the working side, then there is no reason why you can't start training your boy. Realistically he is too old to do any good as such, however, you will learn a lot and he will love it  - what better reason can there be than being out there having fun with your dog.  From that starting point you will gain experience (we all ruin our first dog anyway  ) you will get to see other dogs working - see their breeding and either see other lines you like, or if you want to stick to your boy's lines you can go back to Billy Steel and put your name down for a pup . From there, the addiction starts  But, I will say, that breeding is really secondary to working dogs and not the aim. If all you are interested in is breeding, then really the only route I can see is the pet breeding one and for that, his pedigree is really irrelevant.
HTH


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

so use dont think i could get a good workin bitch talk them into breeding with mine then try that puppy at working as hopefully by that time i will know more about it?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> so use dont think i could get a good workin bitch talk them into breeding with mine then try that puppy at working as hopefully by that time i will know more about it?


mmmm - why would you want to talk someone into using your dog at stud 

Honestly, it would be a real turn off if someone tried to talk me into using their dog at stud and I would walk away, regardless of how good the dog is. So, again, you will only attract the sort of person you don't want breeding.

I don't mean to sound off, but why is it so important to use YOUR dog and get a puppy from YOUR dog. I appreciate that many people want their own dog's/bitch's pups for sentimental reasons, but really that's all it is sentimentality - it has nothing to do with good breeding.

Your dog has a good sire (can't say about the dam), but that means nothing as I said. Your own dog is an unknown quantity - you won't be able to tell his abilities or if he is likely to pass them onto his offspring. You won't attract a good bitch to him (as they can get the pick of good proven stud dogs) so even if you did manage to talk someone into using him (and I have no doubt there will be someone out there that will - particularly if free for a pup), they aren't the ones you will want to keep a pup from. And that pup will be with you for 12+ years - surely you want a good one. It takes a lot to train a good working dog - that is why they are so valuable.

Working folk don't concentrate on breeding, it is merely a by product and you will find even the top kennels that do breed still buy good puppies in. Some of them they sell on because they don't make the grade. I'm only saying that to help you understand that what you are hoping to achieve won't happen in the working world. In the pet world maybe, but not in the working world.

Apart from anything else, it will be a lot easier and less expensive to buy a good quality pup in than trying to find someone you can talk into using your boy and getting all the health tests done. This is why I don't understand your keeness to use him. If he was a good working gundog and had proved himself and had particular qualities, then yes, I would understand it, but he is a completely unknown quantity. He may have faults that will really only reveal themselves as he is trained to do the work and starts working on game. There are no tests this. Is he hard mouthed? Is he noisy? How does he hunt? How biddable is he? These are all things a good working bitch owner will want to know. You may be able to say he has none of these faults now, and he may not, but these traits may come out when the adreneline of picking game starts. It is a completely different ballgame to having a pet. I don't know if this helps explain things but feel free to ask away if anything is not clear.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jazza said:


> so use dont think i could get a good workin bitch talk them into breeding with mine then try that puppy at working as hopefully by that time i will know more about it?


No chance  have a read of what I went through when I was breeding my pet bitch - this is the choice informed bitch owners have.

I get approaches from would be stud owners every week - this is not being disrespectful - but why would I use any dog I've not heard of when it is possible to pick pretty much ANY labrador stud dog out there and know they've had all the health tests done - proven themselves in the ring, and proven themselves for producing quality progeny.

If I have had my bitches hip and elbow scored, Optigen and CNM tested and have annual eye certificates - know they produce better than themselves - why would I compromise on all the above when my overall intention is to improve with each generation?

I've got a stud dog here - his dad and grandsire are SH CH with a pedigree to die for, he's done well in the showring with a real aptitude for the working side of things, I think my gundog trainer would happily have taken him home with him, it was love at first sight both physically and for the way he is. (and G/D trainers still need some persuading about chocolates.

He's hipscored with a VERY low sore, perfect elbows, PRA and CNM clear and a clear eye certificate, he's conformationally very nicely assembled and has the dullest softest temperament of any of my dogs - he's also chocolate which makes him an easy target - I turn most enquirers away - I try to educate them - but the ones who are determined simply go and use a pet dog with no health tests down the road - it doesn't do our beloved breed, already over-run with far too many irresponsible breeders, any good at all 

If you love the breed, then try and do right by it - i.e. working your boy and proving him if you can, or start again.


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> mmmm - why would you want to talk someone into using your dog at stud
> 
> The reason being im looking for expierience in how the breeding works, how to go about breeding etc, im doing none of this out of financial gain just because this is something im very interested in. So I thought by using my dog I could get a start.
> 
> You both seem like experts, do use train and breed yoir own dogs and do use have a website I could look on as most top quality breeders do


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> The reason being im looking for expierience in how the breeding works, how to go about breeding etc, im doing none of this out of financial gain just because this is something im very interested in. So I thought by using my dog I could get a start.


The main thing if you want to learn about breeding (and good breeding practices rather than just being a byb) is to learn about the breed, the dogs and (if working) the work they do. You do this first before thinking about breeding. You cannot make good breeding decisions without having a good degree of knowledge about the dogs and working so this needs to be done first.

I wouldn't say I'm an expert at all - I have a long way to go, but yes, I work, compete with my dogs and IF (and I say only IF) I have a bitch good enough who has really proven herself, then I will take a litter from her in order to keep a pup. I certainly wouldn't breed for the sake of it. As I said, it is much easier to buy a pup in. Training a working gundog to good competition level (as opposed to a picking up dog) requires a lot of time and effort) and I'm not going to waste that in breeding from a dog that hasn't made the grade.

So, in a nutshell, you really need to know what you are breeding and what you are trying to achieve. You cannot do this unless you have knowledge about the breed, the work they do and what is required to make a good dog. Showing is probably similar, but different. I know next to nothing about showing, but I think pedigrees probably have more importance, and obviously proving a dog (while not easy) does not require the same number of hours being put into it.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jazza said:


> rocco33 said:
> 
> 
> > mmmm - why would you want to talk someone into using your dog at stud
> ...


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

very nice pics

Well thanks for your help, as i said im a complete novice but very willing and wanting to learn, a few times the financial implications have been brought up, things like that arent going to put me off. like said before I just want a start and want to know how to go about it,

My love of the breed started when we had a few as kids, then when 20 i got 1 of my own and was delighted how easy and how well he took to training, having him has made me want more and to breed and train my own.

im not being risrespectful to both of you who clearly are expierienced, im just finding it tough on how to work out what my next step is and would luve to have used my own dog as a start. 

your comments and help has been much appreciated but akk i feel i know now as i did yesterday is that my dog wouldnt work and I need to go get myself a new puppy to start, but still wouldnt know where to go from there.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jazza said:


> your comments and help has been much appreciated but akk i feel i know now as i did yesterday is that my dog wouldnt work and I need to go get myself a new puppy to start, but still wouldnt know where to go from there.


That's why by going to a good kennel, whether it be for a working or showbred dog, you will also find yourself a mentor - who will help guide you through how to get started, and how, when the time comes, to get health tests done, and then, if you have a bitch guide you through your first litter, and if you have a dog, would guide you through using him at stud.

I've had tremendous support since I started showing - and actually have quite a few mentors I can call on for help and advice, and often still do, even though I've been in the breed for 8 years.

Some breeders have been in the game for 30 to 40 years +++ many before I was even a twinkle in my parents eyes - so there is lots of experience out there and lots of knowledge to acquire


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

The first question to ask is are you looking to get into showing or working?


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

Swarthy how would you suggest I approach these people and find a mentor?


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

Rococo my answe to that would be working


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

jazza said:


> Swarthy how would you suggest I approach these people and find a mentor?


If it working, then Rocco is your person  the principle however would be very similar.

You need to find out the type of Labrador you like - while there is a divide between the show and working side, working labs also come in various shapes and sizes - some having more substance than others - to me - they are show / working dogs for a relatively small amount of their time, and pets for the rest - so you still have to like what you are looking at 

Good luck - do let us know how you get on


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Ok - I ask because it's a different world to the show world and 'mentor' is not really used as such, although there is a lot of advice out there too.

In your position (and I have been when I started), I would take your boy to some training classes / clubs and see how you get on. In all honesty (and to not get your hopes up) he is really too old and will have developed to many bad habits to do well, but you will learn a lot (including what not to do ) and he will love it. You may even get him to the stage where you could do some picking up and even enter in some novice/ ndnh working tests. So don't give up on him (apart from using him as a stud), go and enjoy him and learn, this will put you in a much better position when you get a pup who will be a blank canvas. 

Now is a good time to start as there will be plenty going on. Most clubs offer training over the summer months - you can get along to working tests/game fairs.

Where are you in the UK? I would suggest you contact some local gundog clubs in your area. You will need to be proposed and seconded for most (I think URC are an exception) but most will be open to it if you offer to help and show willing. Helping at tests will also give you a lot of insight into what you are aiming for and can be great for learning too.

Through this you will learn to meet trainers and I would advise getting a personal trainer too (outsite club training) and one who is used to helping beginnners. Contrary to what you have said, actually not all working gundog people have websites - the number is increasing, but there are many good trainers/breeders out there that aren't on the www.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Contrary to what you have said, actually not all working gundog people have websites - the number is increasing, but there are many good trainers/breeders out there that aren't on the www.


Yes, I should have said in my post, there are a lot of good show kennels who still don't have websites - although here too the numbers are increasing


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## jazza (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm in Coventry (west midlands) at the moment originally from Scotland hence my connection with Leadburn gundogs. 

I presume the training you mean I'd learn is different from just the basic training of heel sit.etc, can even get him to answer phone and bring it to me which is quite fun and he's always keen on learning new things. But now I feel I'm over wanting the fun and willing pet side of things and more interested in the working side. 

I will try and source some clubs and get along and try and meet and find some stuff out!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Field Trial Societies contact details and website links - The Kennel Club

Have a look at the list of gundog clubs here to find some in your area (it's unlikely that there will be any on your doorstep (unless you're lucky - my nearest on is nearly an hour away) and you will end up joining quite a few (I'm a member of 11 at last count).

The United Retriever Club promotes the breeding, showing and working of all breeds of retriever

The URC has a Midlands branch and doesn't require proposing and seconding so is a good place to start. Go along to one of their training days, offer to help at a working test (explain you want to learn - they are always keen for helpers and to help those new to gundog work too, so will be very grateful).

If you can get to her, it would be well worth making a start with Laura at Stauntonvale as she does general obedience training too and will give you a good start. Some gundog trainers, while good trainers aren't so good when it comes to teaching newbies and will expect you to have some knowledge. Don't be put off by this.
Training

Good luck and be warned.... it is very addictive


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