# Karma....



## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

American Benjamin Miller gored by bull at Ciudad Rodrigo's Carnaval del Toro in Spain yesterday | Daily Mail Online


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## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

Its not really karma though is it...he'll live but the bull won't. And no, I wouldn't give a sh!t if he had died, its cruelty dressed up as sport, like fox hunting. Disgusting


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Oh Dear, my heart bleeds  (that was my heart bleeding face) ....perhaps if they didn't use the poor animals in the way they do they wouldn't feel the need to do this eh....bull fighting really does boil my pis5


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Why are the newsapapers still printing this as A/ news and B/ as if this man is a victim?

He went to this festival where he knew what the activity was, he willingly took part in the activity and he came off worse.
He went for an adrenalin rush and got on the wrong end of the bull. Tough..

Now morally Id say he got off lightly and shouldnt moan because I wouldnt have pulled him clear Id have stood back and let the bull have him..(assuming I ever got within 100 miles of something so barbaric.)

Dog fighting , cock fighting, bear baiting, hare coursing and fox hunting with dogs all thankfully banned but yet this carrries on in the name of culture.. Its a shameful barbaric slaughter nothing more.


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## Pasuded (Feb 13, 2015)

You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


I am:thumbsup: Infact I wish the tables would turn on all the cruel ******** who get their kicks maiming & killing animals.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


No..I would love it if there was never another story like this.. Id love it if this 'sport' was banned outright, then there would be no more victims..

But if people deliberatly take part in a pastime that involves tormenting and hurting an animal then I have no sympathy if and when that person gets hurt..


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


I believe the word I used was karma.

I never said I was happy.

If people want to spend their time deliberately antagonising, hunting, and hurting others, they shouldn't expect sympathy, or be surprised when their victim tries to protect itself.

If the people that allowed this barbaric 'sport' to continue, actually thought about how cruel it is, and developed the balls to ban it, we wouldn't have 'stories' like this in the first place.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I have no sympathy whatsoever for people being injured whilst participating in stuff like this.

The injuries this young 20 year old has suffered are going to cause him problems for years to come so he is going to spend a lot of time thinking about the events of this day.

Bullfighting belongs in the last millennium...time it was ended.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


I am!

They all deserve to be gored by the bulls. Bull fighting is a disgusting barbaric practice.


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

the only horrifying thing about this story is that these poor bulls are still being used like this in the name of entertainment - I have no sympathy for anyone that gets hurt and yes actually I am glad the bull got someone - I would be much happier if they put a stop to the "sport" altogether though. it's vile.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

redroses2106 said:


> the only horrifying thing about this story is that these poor bulls are still being used like this in the name of entertainment - I have no sympathy for anyone that gets hurt and yes actually I am glad the bull got someone - I would be much happier if they put a stop to the "sport" altogether though. it's vile.


worth too much money tp get it stopped and as soon as anybody starts saying its barbaric etc then the locals start talking about their cultural rights.

Its disgusting. If animals were treated like this in a slaughter house, the slaughterhouse would be closed down.

If farm animals on a farm were treated like this, the farmer would be prosecuted.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


As twisted minds have deemed 'Bullfighting' a 'Sport' any and all injuries inflicted upon or suffered by the human opponent should be regarded as an accepted right of tournament.

You wouldn't go to a boxing match and expect only one of the competitors to come out fighting whilst the other simply stood there and took the punishment.

Would you:001_unsure:

It's about time this show of animal cruelty was put to a stop once and for all.


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

This man had a choice to take part or not. The bull did not. I know on which side I am .


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


A lot of members don't believe in fighting violence with violence but this was completely different.

Go on youtube and search bullfighting. It's a horrible disgusting sport and so are the people who take part in it for some sick pleasure. What the bulls go through is damn right awful. It's beyond cruel and for what? Sick pleasure and entertainment, because it makes them feel powerful.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

redroses2106 said:


> the only horrifying thing about this story is that these poor bulls are still being used like this in the name of entertainment - I have no sympathy for anyone that gets hurt and yes actually I am glad the bull got someone - I would be much happier if they put a stop to the "sport" altogether though. it's vile.


The bulls are not just your average bull though, they are bred specifically with pedigrees longer than your arm.

So sad for the bull...and really, its going to be a sad and long road to recovery for the 20 year old who got hurt.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

What goes around comes around!!!! My sympathy has gone for a walk and I feel nothing but pure contempt for the 'tourists' who encourage these barbaric practices! If the tourists refused to attend, the towns would soon re-evaluate their thinking.

This town has done just that and, in doing so, has increased their tourist attraction! I would love to attend this real sport! It looks like so much more fun.

If one town can change, there is NO excuse for the rest of them!!!!

Spanish town swaps bull run for 'ball roll' after locking horns with animal activists | Metro News

.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Blackcats said:


> A lot of members don't believe in fighting violence with violence but this was completely different.
> 
> Go on youtube and search bullfighting. It's a horrible disgusting sport and so are the people who take part in it for some sick pleasure. *What the bulls go through is damn right awful. *It's beyond cruel and for what? Sick pleasure and entertainment, because it makes them feel powerful.


Not just the bulls. The horses in bullfights (ridden by the picadors) suffer horribly, are denied proper vetinary attention, and are frequently stitched up (without anaesthetic, or even by anyone with any degree of vetinary training) and forced back into the ring again - repeatedly until they are so badly injured that they can't be "repaired" and are killed.

It is a hideous and brutal "sport". If it takes human injuries to get it stopped, then I hope that a lot of the men who take part in bull runs get injured.


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## wind1 (Oct 24, 2010)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


Serves him right as far as I'm concerned. If you choose to participate in such a cruel 'sport', then you have to expect you may get injured. The only sympathy I have goes to the bulls who suffer during these festivals.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Bullfighting is barbaric and anyone who's stupid and/or cruel enough to take part has only themselves to blame for their injuries. I don't revel in others being hurt though human or animal. I do feel sorry for any animals caught up in such horrific sports.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


Errr...That would be a yes....actually no, Im sad that this kind of thing is still happening and that it hasn't been banned yet but as for the prat that decided it was still fun then I believe Karma was what the OP said....
You know in another thread I said I wasn't judgemental....well in this case...yes I am very much so


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Clare7435 said:


> *Errr...That would be a yes....actually no, Im sad that this kind of thing is still happening and that it hasn't been banned yet* but as for the prat that decided it was still fun then I believe Karma was what the OP said....
> You know in another thread I said I wasn't judgemental....well in this case...yes I am very much so


My opinion as well. Shouldn't be happening, but if it is, then there is a natural justice in some of the perpetrators getting their comeuppance. And if it takes someone being badly injured or even killed to bring people to their sense, then i hope it happens soon. _Though I hope it won't need to happen at all, and the whole sorry fiasco is banned ._


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

lostbear said:


> My opinion as well. Shouldn't be happening, but if it is, then there is a natural justice in some of the perpetrators getting their comeuppance. And if it takes someone being badly injured or even killed to bring people to their sense, then i hope it happens soon. _Though I hope it won't need to happen at all, and the whole sorry fiasco is banned ._


was the man actually there to see the bull running or did he just get caught up in it all?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

lilythepink said:


> was the man actually there to see the bull running or did he just get caught up in it all?


I'm not sure - either way, I have little sympathy TBH.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> was the man actually there to see the bull running or did he just get caught up in it all?


It looks like he was running but, either way, his mere attendance at the event will ensure it carries on happening year after year.

I have the same amount of sympathy for the runners as I do for the audience. And that would be Zilch!! Zero!! Da Nada!!!

.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I really don't understand the "human is mean to animal- humans fault" "animal mean to human- still humans fault" Where's the campaigning for one of the dumbest animals there is- humans.

Dont get me wrong I dont agree with bull fighting etc, but show the poor bloody chap a bit of compassion, Not everyone is clued up on animal welfare, so may not even have known these things were "frowned" upon.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> I really don't understand the "human is mean to animal- humans fault" "animal mean to human- still humans fault" Where's the campaigning for one of the dumbest animals there is- humans.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I dont agree with bull fighting etc, but show the poor bloody chap a bit of compassion, Not everyone is clued up on animal welfare, so may not even have known these things were "frowned" upon.


Because humans can make a rational choice, or should be able to in theory. This is tradition in Spain of course but it's becoming more controversial by the year and there's plenty of information out there on just how horrific it is.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> I really don't understand the "human is mean to animal- humans fault" "animal mean to human- still humans fault" Where's the campaigning for one of the dumbest animals there is- humans.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I dont agree with bull fighting etc, but show the poor bloody chap a bit of compassion, Not everyone is clued up on animal welfare, so may not even have known these things were "frowned" upon.


From my perspective, the bull wasn't "mean". They are tormented to the death, and are fighting for their lives. As others have said, anyone who goes even to spectate is part of the barbarity, and encourages it to continue.
So I laugh my head off when the tables are turned, my sympathies are entirely with the bull.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Because humans can make a rational choice, or should be able to in theory. This is tradition in Spain of course but it's becoming more controversial by the year and there's plenty of information out there on just how horrific it is.


Seriously..... why do you give humans so much credit? I have intelligent friends, most know next to nothing about animal welfare, why would that not be across the board?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Seriously..... why do you give humans so much credit? I have intelligent friends, most know next to nothing about animal welfare, why would that not be across the board?


He still made the choice to take part, even if you don't care about animal welfare the number of deaths every year is well reported. The bull didn't anymore than a pitbull chooses to take part in a fight.

Er generic you of course, I wasn't accusing you of not caring.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> He still made the choice to take part, even if you don't care about animal welfare the number of deaths every year is well reported. The bull didn't anymore than a pitbull chooses to take part in a fight.


Made an uneducated choice to take part........ I dont think he "deserved" to be permanently disfigured for it, is all im saying, a pitbull can choose to take part in a fight....... can they not? and do? on occasion? like pretty much all dogs can choose to?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Made an uneducated choice to take part........ I dont think he "deserved" to be permanently disfigured for it, is all im saying, a pitbull can choose to take part in a fight.......


He chose to take part in an event against a large, very dangerous animal. I'm not saying he deserved it, I don't revel in suffering as some seem to as long as the person is doing something they disagree with, but he had to have known the risks. He made the choice to do it.

And I meant a pitbull has little choice about being thrown in a fighting pit. They can of course choose not to fight but they're likely to be injured anyway.


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> I really don't understand the "human is mean to animal- humans fault" "animal mean to human- still humans fault" Where's the campaigning for one of the dumbest animals there is- humans.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I dont agree with bull fighting etc, but show the poor bloody chap a bit of compassion, Not everyone is clued up on animal welfare, so may not even have known these things were "frowned" upon.


Even if you are not clued up on animal welfare, would place yourself in the path of a bull charging? Sane people would say no. 
I wouldnt call it karma, i would call it natural selection. 
If your stupid enough to put yourself in that situation then deal with the consequences.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

CRL said:


> Even if you are not clued up on animal welfare, would place yourself in the path of a bull charging? Sane people would say no.
> I wouldnt call it karma, i would call it natural selection.
> If your stupid enough to put yourself in that situation then deal with the consequences.


Me no? because I have been around cows/ farm animals...... fairly intelligent mate was willing to walk through a field of cows with calves at foot, with our dogs though (just as dangerous in my opinion).... some people really just have absolutely no clue


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Me no? because I have been around cows/ farm animals...... fairly intelligent mate was willing to walk through a field of cows with calves at foot, with our dogs though (just as dangerous in my opinion).... some people really just have absolutely no clue


If someone came to harm in that kind of situation, through lack of knowledge, I would have every sympathy. Going to watch an animal tortured to death for "sport" is not the same scenario - he went to watch cruelty, and found himself on the receiving end of the animal he'd wanted to see tormented and killed. Good.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

myshkin said:


> If someone came to harm in that kind of situation, through lack of knowledge, I would have every sympathy. Going to watch an animal tortured to death for "sport" is not the same scenario - he went to watch cruelty, and found himself on the receiving end of the animal he'd wanted to see tormented and killed. Good.


Except if he just found himself there, knew nothing about it, didnt realise what went on at all, had no idea cruelty was involved until there maybe had even been told the bulls enjoy it, as im sure Spaniards will tell you


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Seriously..... why do you give humans so much credit? I have intelligent friends, most know next to nothing about animal welfare, why would that not be across the board?


Ignorance is not an excuse. It is merely laziness to find out more.

You cannot escape from people talking about animal welfare in one shape or another. It is all around us but people choose to ignore it because they get a Neanderthal thrill from seeing defenceless creatures tortured and killed.

.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

myshkin said:


> If someone came to harm in that kind of situation, through lack of knowledge, I would have every sympathy. Going to watch an animal tortured to death for "sport" is not the same scenario - he went to watch cruelty, and found himself on the receiving end of the animal he'd wanted to see tormented and killed. Good.


don't think anything had been tortured at that point had it? just running through the streets.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

I dont derive any pleasure out of seeing any animal hurt - be that animal of the bovine or human variety.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> Ignorance is not an excuse. It is merely laziness to find out more.
> 
> You cannot escape from people talking about animal welfare in one shape or another. It is all around us but people choose to ignore it because they get a Neanderthal thrill from seeing defenceless creatures tortured and killed.
> 
> .


YES YOU CAN, YES YOU CAN, YES YOU CAN this is what I am saying. Seriously you can, people are 110% totally unaware of what goes on on their own bladdy doorstep let alone when talking about the traditions of a foreign country.

These are not stupid people either, nor ones who "enjoy seeing a defenceless (hardly in the bulls case) creature tortured and killed" it is simply people are unaware, have never even thought about it, didnt enter their heads.......


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Serves him right, simple as. T***.

And I don't buy the whole argument of the guy being uneducated/not knowing what was happening...you instinctively know what could possibly be dangerous or not. You can't not attend an 'event' like that and expect everything to be hunky dory and ONLY expect the animals to come away with injuries. Nope. These guys know full well what they're getting into and what the possible risks to themselves are. No point making a big deal out of it when you are infact *shock horror* hurt in the process.

There is always someone willing to excuse the most appalling of the human race though.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I dont derive any pleasure out of seeing any animal hurt - be that animal of the bovine or human variety.


Have to agree with this comment out of all the comments on this thread.


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> it is simply people are unaware, *have never even thought about it*, didnt enter their heads.......


Well in that case if the bloke had died then it would simply have been a case of Darwin's law. I have no sympathy whatsoever. You don't have to have a clue about animal welfare to work out that this sort of thing is wrong. I mean seriously, this person (and the 41 year old Scot who is also mentioned in that report) would had to have been living on another planet if they weren't aware of the controversy surrounding bull fighting.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Serves him right, simple as. T***.
> 
> And I don't buy the whole argument of the guy being uneducated/not knowing what was happening...you instinctively know what could possibly be dangerous or not. You can't not attend an 'event' like that and expect everything to be hunky dory and ONLY expect the animals to come away with injuries. Nope. These guys know full well what they're getting into and what the possible risks to themselves are. No point making a big deal out of it when you are infact *shock horror* hurt in the process.
> 
> There is always someone willing to excuse the most appalling of the human race though.


Nope not an excuse at all I just see these things VERY differently now, having been 100% totally shocked by how little some know about things that go on in our own back yard- people simply do not know, and can live a very long time before they question anything - Im talking meat/ milk etc etc

I have never been to a bull race, nor would I - self preservation would tell me not to be anywhere near it - NOT that they torture bulls to the death- because until this thread I did not know that, I just assumed they were taken back to wence they had come and used again in the next village/ years run.....


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rox666 said:


> Well in that case if the bloke had died then it would simply have been a case of Darwin's law. I have no sympathy whatsoever. You don't have to have a clue about animal welfare to work out that this sort of thing is wrong. I mean seriously, this person (and the 41 year old Scot who is also mentioned in that report) would had to have been living on another planet if they weren't aware of the controversy surrounding bull fighting.


Bull fighting....... not running a bull through some quaint town......


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## rox666 (May 22, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Bull fighting....... not running a bull through some quaint town......


It was a bull fighting festival - they have bull fighting there as well. He was there with a bunch of other students. I'm sure that at least one of that group knew the score.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> don't think anything had been tortured at that point had it? just running through the streets.


They are run through the streets to get them to the bullring, not for a pleasant bit of exercise. At this point they are already deeply stressed, hence their fight or flight reactions.



ouesi said:


> I dont derive any pleasure out of seeing any animal hurt - be that animal of the bovine or human variety.


I completely respect this view, and anyone who knows me on here will know that I don't immediately blame humans when they are hurt by animals. In the case of bullrunning, well, I'm not saying it makes me a good person, but I feel differently.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rox666 said:


> It was a bull fighting festival - they have bull fighting there as well. He was there with a bunch of other students. I'm sure that at least one of that group knew the score.


Maybe..... maybe not, without interviewing the bladdy guy no one will ever know, all I am saying it is totally possible to be wholly unaware what goes on at these things/ anything to do with animal welfare issues full stop.

Does not mean you "deserve" to be disfigured because of it.


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## wind1 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Nope not an excuse at all I just see these things VERY differently now, having been 100% totally shocked by how little some know about things that go on in our own back yard- people simply do not know, and can live a very long time before they question anything - Im talking meat/ milk etc etc
> 
> I have never been to a bull race, nor would I - self preservation would tell me not to be anywhere near it - NOT that they torture bulls to the death- because until this thread I did not know that,* I just assumed they were taken back to wence they had come and used again in the next village/ years run.....*


And you think that's ok do you? For a bull to have to run amongst shouting/screaming/arm waving crowds each year. Still cruel even if no bull fighting is involved. And as for you thinking the guy may not have known what was involved??


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

wind1 said:


> [/B]And you think that's ok do you? For a bull to have to run amongst shouting/screaming/arm waving crowds each year. Still cruel even if no bull fighting is involved. And as for you thinking the guy may not have known what was involved??


No i didnt say that at all, but there is a vast difference between heavily stressing an animal, a month or so a year and torturing it to death! !!!! Why is it so impossible to believe he didnt have the knowledge to know there was anything wrong with a bull run? Not everyone knows everything about everything


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## wind1 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> No i didnt say that at all, but there is a vast difference between heavily stressing an animal, a month or so a year and torturing it to death! !!!! Why is it so impossible to believe he didnt have the knowledge to know there was anything wrong with a bull run? Not everyone knows everything about everything


Sorry but I don't believe anyone could not know what a bull run might involve, and anyone who did not know but with any compassion for animals would find out beforehand. A group of students and none of them knew that what they were going to involved a bull being tormented?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

wind1 said:


> Sorry but I don't believe anyone could not know what a bull run might involve, and anyone who did not know but with any compassion for animals would find out beforehand. A group of students and none of them knew that what they were going to involved a bull being tormented?


Until today i did not know it ended in a bull fight, so believe it..... i really didnt. Whilst i dont agree with bull running either, its far less evil than being made to fight to the death, especially when you read some of the websites, its made to just sound like a race, with the bulls even enjoying it :glare: . Does not make me less of an animal lover, but then you are right one would think they would have done some research before going.

There are those of course who just dont give 2 figs about animals in general.


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## wind1 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Until today i did not know it ended in a bull fight, so believe it..... i really didnt. Whilst i dont agree with bull running either, its far less evil than being made to fight to the death, especially when you read some of the websites, its made to just sound like a race, with the bulls even enjoying it :glare: . Does not make me less of an animal lover, but then you are right one would think they would have done some research before going.
> 
> There are those of course who just dont give 2 figs about animals in general.


I can believe that people wouldn't know it ended in a bull fight but even going to see them running through the streets full of people shouting/screaming/waving arms etc, surely anyone would see this could be very stressful for any animal. As for those who don't give 2 figs about animals in general, then they deserve what they get in my opinion.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

As far as I know, bulls enjoy grazing pasture and getting cows pregnant.

I can't really see that any bull enjoys being chased through streets, with a screaming, hysterical mob behind and alongside. They must be terrified.

I always feel it's tragic when anyone suffers such injuries and I think this particular lad was very misguided.

However, he is twenty years old, old enough to make informed decisions, and I know that neither of my Sons would have wanted any part of such a spectacle at that age. Had he been a ten year old, taken there by misguided parents, that's different. 

I do hope he recovers from his injuries and some good may come out of it, in that he will have learned a valuable lesson.

Taking part in any activity that causes a large and potentially dangerous animal, (or any animal for that matter), such terror and distress can have potentially catastrophic consequences.

This boy has learned that the hard way, sadly.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> He chose to take part in an event against a large, very dangerous animal. I'm not saying he deserved it, I don't revel in suffering as some seem to as long as the person is doing something they disagree with, but he had to have known the risks. He made the choice to do it.
> 
> And I meant a pitbull has little choice about being thrown in a fighting pit. They can of course choose not to fight but they're likely to be injured anyway.


I think the bulls they use for bullfighting are very aggressive. No bull can ever be trusted, even the nice gentle quiet one grazing in a local field smelling buttercups...that same field you walked through many times without ever a problem.

It is possible he didn't realise this was not a stroll in the park type of bull.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> I think the bulls they use for bullfighting are very aggressive. No bull can ever be trusted, even the nice gentle quiet one grazing in a local field smelling buttercups...that same field you walked through many times without ever a problem.
> 
> It is possible he didn't realise this was not a stroll in the park type of bull.


I get that the people that take part in this seems to be morons but who doesn't look at something with the size and power of a bull, not to mention those horns filed down or now, and see a dangerous animal?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rox666 said:


> Well in that case if the bloke had died then it would simply have been a case of Darwin's law. I have no sympathy whatsoever. You don't have to have a clue about animal welfare to work out that this sort of thing is wrong. I mean seriously, this person (and the 41 year old Scot who is also mentioned in that report) would had to have been living on another planet if they weren't aware of the controversy surrounding bull fighting.


Every year people go to Thailand and the like for an exotic holiday...and part of that experience is often riding on an elephant or going to a circus.

Untold cruelty goes on in this pastime....but its gone on for years.

Anybody rationally thinking about it would possibly think that its not natural for an elephant to do this...just how do they get them so docile?

This with the bull...wasn't a bullfight but the running of the bulls beforehand....if the bulls regularly run from one place down a road to another, how could this be cruel or risky?

No horns set on fire, nothing stabbed...nothing tortured. I bet he won't ever be daft enough to do it again.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

myshkin said:


> They are run through the streets to get them to the bullring, not for a pleasant bit of exercise. At this point they are already deeply stressed, hence their fight or flight reactions.
> 
> I completely respect this view, and anyone who knows me on here will know that I don't immediately blame humans when they are hurt by animals. In the case of bullrunning, well, I'm not saying it makes me a good person, but I feel differently.


some places where they have bull fights run many bulls down the town but not all of them end up in the bull ring...some end up going back to wherever they came and run the streets again


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't wish ill on anyone but I'm afraid ignorance is no excuse, I've never been hit by a lorry but I sure as hell know not to step in front of one. I hope the guy does recover and spends some time educating other youngsters about how stupid it is to take part in these barbaric festivals.


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## wind1 (Oct 24, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> Every year people go to Thailand and the like for an exotic holiday...and part of that experience is often riding on an elephant or going to a circus.
> 
> Untold cruelty goes on in this pastime....but its gone on for years.
> 
> ...


If the bulls were just running from one area to another without all the crowds of people present, shouting and waving, then yes I can see how some people would think this was ok, but I can't believe anyone would think a bull enjoys it with all the noise/hype surrounding it. When you go for a ride on an elephant, the elephant plods along seemingly happily so it is understandable that a lot of people don't see this as cruelty.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Pasuded said:


> You're happy that somebody was gored by a bull???


If you play with fired expect to get burned, happy isn't the word but he wont be doing it again will he, pity a few more don't get hurt.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I'm not gonna wish harm or death to another human being. After reading and watching stuff about bullfighting, I hope the sport goes the way of the dodo. Dog fighting was considered an ethical and noble sport at one time.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I really don't understand the "human is mean to animal- humans fault" "animal mean to human- still humans fault" Where's the campaigning for one of the dumbest animals there is- humans.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I dont agree with bull fighting etc, but show the poor bloody chap a bit of compassion, Not everyone is clued up on animal welfare, so may not even have known these things were "frowned" upon.





Lexiedhb said:


> Seriously..... why do you give humans so much credit? I have intelligent friends, most know next to nothing about animal welfare, why would that not be across the board?


Sorry, haven't read all the replies (got a bit further than this before I had to have my two pen'th ), so I apologise if this has already been said..

However, this isn't a simple animal welfare issue. OK, not everyone, no matter how intelligent, is clued up on animals. Not everyone is an "animal person", but this isn't a simple matter of animal welfare. What happened to empathy?

OK, you could argue that the victims (there were 3 victims mentioned in the report - the American, a Spaniard, and a Scot) deserve empathy too, but, as has already been mentioned, _they _have the choice to go there, and to participate in that "sport" - whether they watch it, or actually take part in it. It's the middle of February! Hardly the height of the Summer Holidays! You can't tell me they were in Spain for the weather (especially as the average temperature for Salamanca at this time of year is 10-13*c: https://weatherspark.com/averages/32051/2/Salamanca-Castille-and-Leon-Spain And the actual recorded/predicted temps for this month: Salamanca February Weather 2015 - AccuWeather Forecast for Castile and Leon Spain ). The bull didn't have a choice, and probably came worse off, anyway. 

Am I happy these people were hurt? No, not really, but my sympathies are firmly with the bull.


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

What do people think is going to happen when they mess with a 2,000-pound animal? I would never wish harm on anybody, though. I have not read all the replies, as there are just too many.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I really don't understand the "human is mean to animal- humans fault" "animal mean to human- still humans fault" Where's the campaigning for one of the dumbest animals there is- humans.
> 
> Dont get me wrong I dont agree with bull fighting etc, but show the poor bloody chap a bit of compassion, Not everyone is clued up on animal welfare, so may not even have known these things were "frowned" upon.


So he goes to a country that is well know for their cruelty to bulls (even if they flower it up, and call it a traditional festival) and he has NO clue about the way the people of the country he is visiting treat bulls?

Really? You actually believe that?

He seemed to have enough savvy to use google to decide where he wanted to visit in Europe. Are you suggesting, that he wasn't intelligent enough to then google what was going on in each country he visited, and then decide which country he would visit, in which order, so that he could experience what took his interest?

REALLY??????

A european trip for an American isn't a cheap 'i think I'll go here for a few days because its cheap' - its like us in the UK deciding to travel the USA for a few months - it aint cheap and it aint easy!

I admire you wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt - but I'm not buying it.

He was in that town, at that time, for a reason.


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

People who engage in this type of cruelty know what they are doing is cruel, but they don't care.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Maybe..... maybe not, without interviewing the bladdy guy no one will ever know, all I am saying it is totally possible to be wholly unaware what goes on at these things/ anything to do with animal welfare issues full stop.
> 
> Does not mean you "deserve" to be disfigured because of it.





Lexiedhb said:


> No i didnt say that at all, but there is a vast difference between heavily stressing an animal, a month or so a year and torturing it to death! !!!! Why is it so impossible to believe he didnt have the knowledge to know there was anything wrong with a bull run? Not everyone knows everything about everything


Oh, come on! Sorry, but that doesn't wash. I've been to Spain, when I was 13 or so. We didn't have the internet then, so all the information we had came from glossy holiday brochures (and yes - we did go for the weather). We went in about May, avoiding the worst of the summer heat because of my skin, and were sitting in a bar when a bull fight was on TV. Now, I don't, or didn't, speak a word of Spanish, and like I said, this was before we had the Internet and within 2mins, I'd fully worked out what was happening, spent the.rest of the trip to the bar extremely uncomfortable, looked anywhere but at that TV, and couldn't wait to get out of there! I just hoped it was a few miles away and not round the next corner.

I haven't been to Spain as an adult, and won't, unless or until the bullfighting ends.

Really? If a 13y/o can correctly guess what's going on without speaking a word of Spanish before that girl had the information super-highway better known as the Internet, what excuse has a 20y/o got for not knowing about Spanish bullfights, when; a) Spain is renowned for it's bullfighting"tradition", and b) probably has the internet at his finger tips, on his mobile? What excuse has he got for being in that town on that day, at that time anyway? It's hard to believe that he was there for any other reason than for the "festival", got hurt, and now wants a bit of sympathy.

Ok, I get it. Not everyone knows about the cruelty on their own doorstep in the meat and milk industries (I'm probably not fully up to date about all that myself  ) but Spain isn't exactly quiet about its bullfighting heritage - they've used it as a tourist attraction for years!! You don't hear farmers encouraging people to come and torment their livestock in the name of "sport", do you? Can't remember the last time an abattoir had an "open day".  That's what Spain is effectively doing, and has done for years - inviting the public to watch the death of an already terrified animal n the name of "entertainment" and "sport".


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

You go into a Spanish village and see a poster like this.









You still have no idea,I don't think so.
Tough,he got what he deserved.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

As McWillow and LinzMilly have said, it is beyond reasonable belief that any adult capable of travelling and living independently would not be aware that bull-running is, AT BEST, stressful for the animals involved. They may not know it ends in torture and death (though I'd be surprised if they don't, but they do know that it is not kind and that given the choice the bulls would rather be in a field chewing grass, seducing sweet little heifers, or galloping across the grass for the sheer joy of life.

The bulls used in bullfight are traditionally Muras -a type of cattle bred for courage and aggression. At one time, bulls of three/four years old were chosen (Ernest Hemingway - "Death in the Afternoon"). They were huge and fierce, and out up a good fight in the ring - they had developed fighting techniques sparring with each other in the fields and were fully mature and confident. The sport was still cruel, but it was "fairer", for want of a better term. However they were so dangerous that it was decided to allow only young inexperienced bulls (a year or two years old) go into the ring. They are still big and aggressive, but don't have nearly their full potential power and of course, haven't had the opportunity to develop confidence and any fighting skills.* Effectively they are teenagers.

Whilst I am all for weighing up the arguments on both sides, even in a court of law things only have to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" - but some people here take the argument (not just on this thread - I'v seen it on others) well beyond reasonable doubt - into unreasonable speculation.

Yes, even in this day and age these men may not have realised that the running led to the ring, and may never have even heard that bullfights were cruel; they also might have been beamed down into the crowd by aliens.

* NB - the details I have for the bulls' age and maturity are taken from Hemingway's "Death in the Afternoon" written in 1932. There will doubtless be more recent data somewhere.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Oh for goodness sake what im saying is yes people can be 100% totally clueless, especially those not routinely involved with animals, does not mean he deserved to be badly injured. I'll give you 2 examples that show how clueless folk can be that i have heard recently, from 3, intelligent adults
1. "Lovely new butchers opened up the road, get my meat there now, I'll show you" its a halal butcher, explaination given, "so? The meat really is great"

2. "So dairy cows have to be pretty much constantly pregnant" .... yes and what do you think happens to the males " omg, never thought of that"

3. "Got a bargain on bacon last night" nice from where "its danish" i meant which supermarket but sigh, crating convo etc...... not bothered it was cheap

from a poster in a town, or even a bit of internet searching one may well feel it acceptable to run a bull, if one had never been around animals, i mean its tradition, must be ok right?


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

richly deserved, im happy they got hurt and i wish death and suffering on anyone who does this kind of thing. i aint sugar coating it for noone.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Bull fighting....... not running a bull through some quaint town......


So would you feel sympathy for this witch recently gored by the poor bull she was fighting? BBC News - Mexican female bullfighter Karla de los Angeles gored


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Timern said:


> People who engage in this type of cruelty know what they are doing is cruel, but they don't care.


I agree. And that's why, although I admire those who take a nobler stance, in cases of willfull cruelty like this, I do revel in the suffering of those who are part of it when the tables are turned.


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## wind1 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Oh for goodness sake what im saying is yes people can be 100% totally clueless, especially those not routinely involved with animals, does not mean he deserved to be badly injured. I'll give you 2 examples that show how clueless folk can be that i have heard recently, from 3, intelligent adults
> 1. "Lovely new butchers opened up the road, get my meat there now, I'll show you" its a halal butcher, explaination given, "so? The meat really is great"
> 
> 2. "So dairy cows have to be pretty much constantly pregnant" .... yes and what do you think happens to the males " omg, never thought of that"
> ...


But all 3 of these examples are practices that go on but are not advertised. Bull running festivals are and even if you did turn up from another planet and not know what was going to happen, as soon as you saw and heard the baying crowd and realised a bull was going to be subjected to running through it being chased, raced, shouted at etc, if you had any compassion for animals you would immediately leave. This guy chose to stay and he is now suffering the consequences. I am very confident he knew what he was going to be taking part in.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I just think with some folk animal welfare as a whole does not enter their heads (maybe even until they are in the thick of things).... thats all, of course on here it does, its an animal loving community, not everyone thinks the same, and I wont "enjoy" their suffering.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> I just think with some folk animal welfare as a whole does not enter their heads (maybe even until they are in the thick of things).... thats all, of course on here it does, its an animal loving community, not everyone thinks the same, and I wont "enjoy" their suffering.


I think they DO understand exactly what is going on - they just choose to discount it - so they can carry on "having fun".

There is no mistaking the horror of such an event - it is very, very clear to all.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I don't wish ill on anyone - but nor do I waste sympathy on someone whose own cruel actions (even if "second-hand" cruelty) bring misfortune on them.

Presumably it is the risk involved in these bull runnings that makes stupid men (there may be women doing it, but I think it is pretty much a male preserve) want to do it.

If they escape unscathed they can go home and brag about their "courage". This young man has been unfortunate - he won't get admiration - only pity. But he brought it on himself.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> I just think with some folk animal welfare as a whole does not enter their heads (maybe even until they are in the thick of things).... thats all, of course on here it does, its an animal loving community, not everyone thinks the same, and I wont "enjoy" their suffering.


If animal welfare does not enter their heads then they obviously don't feel any empathy for the animals being abused - its as simple as that. And in all honesty, I simply don't have it in me to feel empathy for someone who gets their kicks out of the suffering of defenceless animals, or defenceless children or whatever, when the tables are turned either. I think its a British trait to champion the underdog - or bull in this case.

There are NO excuses for tormenting & abusing animals, people who support it are seriously lacking as they are incapable of 'feeling' for the victims.

.

.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I just think with some folk *animal welfare *as a whole does not enter their heads (maybe even until they are in the thick of things).... thats all, of course on here it does, its an animal loving community, not everyone thinks the same, and I wont "enjoy" their suffering.


_Animal welfare_ might not - but, once again - where's the _empathy_? The compassion? Or are you saying these intelligent people, with no clue on animal welfare, have no compassion, no empathy for anyone/anything but themselves, either?

That is one heck of a scary thought!! 

These intelligent people might not have any idea on animal welfare, but anyone with an ounce of empathy in them should be able to imagine how these animals must be suffering!


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> So would you feel sympathy for this witch recently gored by the poor bull she was fighting? BBC News - Mexican female bullfighter Karla de los Angeles gored


none whatsoever.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

MCWillow said:


> So he goes to a country that is well know for their cruelty to bulls (even if they flower it up, and call it a traditional festival) and he has NO clue about the way the people of the country he is visiting treat bulls?
> 
> Really? You actually believe that?
> 
> ...


and he is a student doing student things. He probably would go or has been to Vietnam etc eating and drinking spiders and live snake blood...experiencing the culture and stuff of another country.
youtube Bizzarre foods is full of all sorts of cruelty .....live octopus being eaten in china and so it goes on and no doubt the people involved have no idea how disgusted so many of us feel...but we haven't been born and bred into this stuff.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

LinznMilly said:


> _Animal welfare_ might not - but, once again - where's the _empathy_? The compassion? Or are you saying these intelligent people, with no clue on animal welfare, have no compassion, no empathy for anyone/anything but themselves, either?
> 
> That is one heck of a scary thought!!
> 
> These intelligent people might not have any idea on animal welfare, but anyone with an ounce of empathy in them should be able to imagine how these animals must be suffering!


Compassion, that's exactly it. Most of my family have no awareness of animal welfare issues, but it struck me when I found my old terrier, and it became evident that he had been abandoned to die after a lifetime of certain neglect and probable violence, how horrified and saddened my family members were. All the more striking for the fact that some of them don't want to be in the same room as a dog, but were appalled that someone could do this to one.....compassion and empathy don't require advanced knowledge, they don't even require you to be an animal lover.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Vast difference between being able to see/ feel for the poor abandoned cute doggy, and realising that a bull rampaging through the streets is a welfare issue IMO, and even more so for those who have no animal knowledge.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Dogs and bulls are seen as very different though, people rarely think of the welfare issues around farm animals but most people will be upset at the sight of an abused or neglected dog. 

I don't have any sympathy for anyone idiotic enough to put themselves in the way of an angry, probably in pain, bull. But I'm not happy that they or the bull or injured.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Vast difference between being able to see/ feel for the poor abandoned cute doggy, and realising that a bull rampaging through the streets is a welfare issue IMO, and even more so for those who have no animal knowledge.


Then you are obviously incapable of empathising with the bull either...


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Vast difference between being able to see/ feel for the poor abandoned cute doggy, and realising that a bull rampaging through the streets is a welfare issue IMO, and even more so for those who have no animal knowledge.


That's what I'm trying to say (maybe not very well ). There was nothing cute about any dog to some of my family, especially not a smelly one who snapped if he felt cornered....but they didn't need to find him cute or appealing, or even like him to recognise that he had suffered and feel empathy for him.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

If mankind had everything done to him that he has inflicted upon animals, he'd be f***ed.

Some lyrics from a band called Nile that always sums up how I feel nicely;

_I Await the Day When the Claws of Doom Shall Rise.
To Drag Down in Their Reeking Talons the Weary and Hopeless Remnants of a Jaded, Decayed, War-despairing Mankind.
Of a Day When the Earth Shall Open Wide and the Black, Bottomless, Yawning Abyss Engulfs the Arrogant Civilizations of Man.
Chthonic Retribution Shall Ascend.
Amidst Universal Pandemonium and Those Who Slither and Crawl Shall Rise Again Once More to Inherit the Earth._


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> Then you are obviously incapable of empathising with the bull either...


Er no. Not at all. Not once have I said its right, but having had my eyes opened recently by others I can quite clearly see how OTHERS - NOT ME, could miss the welfare issue with regards to bull running. (please read my posts properly before accusing me of having no empathy)


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Er no. Not at all. Not once have I said its right, but having had my eyes opened recently by others I can quite clearly see how OTHERS - NOT ME, could miss the welfare issue with regards to bull running. (please read my posts properly before accusing me of having no empathy)


I didn't say you said it was right Lexie. But if i see a bull running through the streets, thousands of people taunting & frightening it - I feel SO sorry for it that it is palpable. If people don't feel the same, then they clearly don't have empathy for those bulls.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I didn't say you said it was right Lexie. But if i see a bull running through the streets, thousands of people taunting & frightening it - I feel SO sorry for it that it is palpable. If people don't feel the same, then they clearly don't have empathy for those bulls.


Yes I would feel that like, exactly - I had to bloody turn animal 999 rescue OFF last night because a truck load of steers had toppled over, and some were crushed, and some had escaped onto a busy main road. :nonod:

I have made VERY clear I was not talking about ME- yet you claim I have no empathy- (because you have not read my posts correctly)..... but others like chap in the original story, those with no animal knowledge, those who do not put animal welfare at the forefront of their minds, everyone has differing priorities, the issue here may not be as apparent to "the massess" as it is to a forum of folk who spend a whole lotta time with or around animals......


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Dogs and bulls are seen as very different though, *people rarely think of the welfare issues around farm animals but most people will be upset at the sight of an abused or neglected dog. *
> 
> I don't have any sympathy for anyone idiotic enough to put themselves in the way of an angry, probably in pain, bull. But I'm not happy that they or the bull or injured.


Exactly. I see this all the time and get called "extreme" for the way I feel. Thanks for highlighting


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Its interesting isnt it? How easy it is to find compassion for the bull and how difficult it is to find compassion for the human. 
True empathy includes finding a connection with those you dont feel a connection with. 

The corrida culture needs to stop, absolutely. It needs to stop not just because it is cruel to bulls, it is cruel to humans too. It is cruel to the men who are gored and killed trying to find belonging in a culture that has been indoctrinated in to them from birth. It is cruel to the children who sit in the stands and watch bulls, horses, donkeys, and men being hurt. It is cruel all around. 

We cant just kill off all bullfighters and make bullfighting go away, we need to find some way to connect with those who participate. 
No aficionado is going to be swayed by an AR activist enjoying the sight of a gored tourist, it just makes the AR activist look like a hypocrite who cant see that suffering is suffering regardless of which sentient being it is applied to. Trading one beings suffering for another doesnt stop the cycle of cruelty. It just perpetuates it.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It seems to be a twue animal activist you have to hate humans, wish pain and suffering on anyone who does something you disagree with and all while proclaiming your twueness and how compassionate and caring you are.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nicky10 said:


> It seems to be a twue animal activist you have to hate humans, wish pain and suffering on anyone who does something you disagree with and all while proclaiming your twueness and how compassionate and caring you are.


I don't think thats strictly true, in the days when I was very involved with AR I was still nursing and was part of an organisation of doctors and nurses against vivisection. I used to get accused a lot in those days of caring more about animals than humans but mainly by humans who didn't give a damn about either. I used to ask them what they were doing for human rights or charities and the answer was usually nothing.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Its interesting isnt it? How easy it is to find compassion for the bull and how difficult it is to find compassion for the human.
> True empathy includes finding a connection with those you dont feel a connection with.
> 
> The corrida culture needs to stop, absolutely. It needs to stop not just because it is cruel to bulls, it is cruel to humans too. It is cruel to the men who are gored and killed trying to find belonging in a culture that has been indoctrinated in to them from birth. It is cruel to the children who sit in the stands and watch bulls, horses, donkeys, and men being hurt. It is cruel all around.
> ...


On a purely rational level I agree with you, and wholeheartedly so as far as ending this barbarity is concerned. My difficulty in finding compassion for the human is entirely due to the fact that he found pleasure in causing suffering though. So my empathy is limited, I can't argue with that.



Nicky10 said:


> It seems to be a twue animal activist you have to hate humans, wish pain and suffering on anyone who does something you disagree with and all while proclaiming your twueness and how compassionate and caring you are.


I don't:
Hate humans (I love them)
Wish pain and suffering on anyone I disagree with
Or proclaim how "twue" and compassionate I am (in fact I think I've made it clear that I admire and respect those who have a more reasoned reaction in this case).

There is no need to be insulting.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

There have been many posts on this forum where people have happily wished death and suffering on those engaging in say bloodsports. While shouting loudly about how much they love animals and hate animal suffering.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

yeah yeah, suffering is suffering and we should care as much for evil men as we do for innocents. whatever, fine but if suffering is suffering then justice is jutice too.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> It seems to be a twue animal activist you have to hate humans, wish pain and suffering on anyone who does something you disagree with and all while proclaiming your twueness and how compassionate and caring you are.


I like to think of myself as a true animal activist but I share my views with kindness and compassion. I offer my food out, volunteer to make cakes, give practical and easy to follow advice and "argue" points with politeness and calmness, even when the same respect isnt given back.

I do get mad at mankind in general though, the same as anyone I imagine, when they see an animal abused - from a starved dog to a pig being led into the slaughterhouse.



ouesi said:


> Its interesting isnt it? How easy it is to find compassion for the bull and how difficult it is to find compassion for the human.
> True empathy includes finding a connection with those you dont feel a connection with.
> 
> The corrida culture needs to stop, absolutely. It needs to stop not just because it is cruel to bulls, it is cruel to humans too. It is cruel to the men who are gored and killed trying to find belonging in a culture that has been indoctrinated in to them from birth. It is cruel to the children who sit in the stands and watch bulls, horses, donkeys, and men being hurt. It is cruel all around.
> ...


I agree. Meeting violence with violence just creates more violence. As hard as it is sometimes, I try and extend kindness and compassion to everyone. It's not always easy, in fact it can seem impossible, but you win more bees with honey (excuse the non Vegan pun!).

People respect me and my views because of my approach, you get Vegans hating other Vegans because they are not forceful enough. Whilst I know and understand where their anger comes from, sadly it wont get you anywhere.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I just find so many things about Activists hypocrytical

"I'm vegan, but choose to keep meat eating pets"
"I'm against all animal testing, but dont mind using all the drugs in the world to save my beloved pet, along with asprin, etc - drugs that have been tested on animals"
"I'm a vegetarian, but still eat dairy"
"everyone should be vegan, but I'm too busy campaigning to stop XYZ rather than increasing the welfare of the hundreds of thousands of farm animals that are, and will continue to be born every single year"

Not everyone knows one tiny little thing about animal welfare- outside that that directly affects them/ that they see with their own eyes ...... does not mean they should be wished harm for it.

Education not labels is key IMO.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Yes I would feel that like, exactly - I had to bloody turn animal 999 rescue OFF last night because a truck load of steers had toppled over, and some were crushed, and some had escaped onto a busy main road. :nonod:
> 
> I have made VERY clear I was not talking about ME- yet you claim I have no empathy- (because you have not read my posts correctly)..... but others like chap in the original story, those with no animal knowledge, those who do not put animal welfare at the forefront of their minds, everyone has differing priorities, the issue here may not be as apparent to "the massess" as it is to a forum of folk who spend a whole lotta time with or around animals......


Ok I apologise, I haven't read all your posts thoroughly - it is a big fault of mine. But if you feel like this, I guess I don't understand why you are trying so hard to make excuses for someone who enjoys seeing animals suffer. You don't need to be around animals or even be an animal lover to see this is cruel - no right thinking person finds animal abuse acceptable


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> It seems to be a twue animal activist you have to hate humans, wish pain and suffering on anyone who does something you disagree with and all while proclaiming your twueness and how compassionate and caring you are.


Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.

I care very much for humans who are in pain, suffering sorrow, require compassion. I very much like humans who try their best to look after the planet, who also care for other humans, who understand that being the more developed species does not mean being arrogant with it but instead is humble & caring towards those species whose lives run parallel to ours.

And I absolutely hate with a passion any human who robs & mugs old people, rapes other humans, kiddy-fiddles and anyone who shows any kind of blatent cruelty to animals.

If that makes me a really atrocious person..... Well, I think I can live with it!

.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I just find so many things about Activists hypocrytical
> 
> *"I'm vegan, but choose to keep meat eating pets"*
> "I'm against all animal testing, but dont mind using all the drugs in the world to save my beloved pet, along with asprin, etc - drugs that have been tested on animals"
> ...


Yeah thats me and I am always the first to admit I am a hypocrite. I got my dogs when I ate everything and have fed them Vegan dog food in the past from an established company, which they really enjoyed (and would purchase again in the future). But they would never be a Vegan as my OH eats everything and feeds them all sorts too.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not perfect and talk openly about my lifestyle and how I'm not a "Level 5" Vegan (Vegans judging others by how "hardcore" they are) because of the above, but where animal free choices can be made, I'll always promote them


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)




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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> If mankind had everything done to him that he has inflicted upon animals, he'd be f***ed.
> 
> Some lyrics from a band called Nile that always sums up how I feel nicely;
> 
> ...


And in a parallel universe.........


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't see the issue with vegans keeping pet carnivores provided they don't try to force their beliefs onto them and make them eat a vegan diet. Surely if the animals are being looked after it's not a problem. Some are special though, the person who told their friend to put down a rescue bearded dragon because they'd have to feed it crickets springs to mind.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Pupcakes said:


> Yeah thats me and I am always the first to admit I am a hypocrite. I got my dogs when I ate everything and have fed them Vegan dog food in the past from an established company, which they really enjoyed (and would purchase again in the future). But they would never be a Vegan as my OH eats everything and feeds them all sorts too.
> 
> I'll be the first to admit I'm not perfect and talk openly about my lifestyle and how I'm not a "Level 5" Vegan (Vegans judging others by how "hardcore" they are) because of the above, but where animal free choices can be made, I'll always promote them


I don't think that makes you a hypocrite at all. Dogs are dogs and are entitled to be fed a diet that suits them and is natural for them. Anyhow I don't buy into that whole AR people are hypocrites nonsense. There is not one person walking this earth who is perfect but any little thing each person does helps and makes a difference. If you can help one animal by not doing something but not 100 others should you not bother with the one? We all have our own moral compass and have to choose which causes we support and how far we can take that support whilst still living a life in the real world. Thats a decision we had to make 30 years ago when we were heavily involved in AR, carry on as we were and both end up in prison or accept we couldn't change everything and just do what we could without letting it become an obsession.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> There have been many posts on this forum where people have happily wished death and suffering on those engaging in say bloodsports. While shouting loudly about how much they love animals and hate animal suffering.


Because people who wish to be cruel know what they are doing so they deserve what they get, animals never have a choice in what happens to them.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> Because people who wish to be cruel know what they are doing so they deserve what they get, animals never have a choice in what happens to them.


However much I dislike people who take part in these things "two wrongs don't make a right" so I try to keep that in mind otherwise we lose the opportunity of educating the general public about what goes on by alienating them, also just remember he is someone's son/brother/boyfriend.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> However much I dislike people who take part in these things "two wrongs don't make a right" so I try to keep that in mind otherwise we lose the opportunity of educating the general public about what goes on by alienating them, also* just remember he is someone's son/brother/boyfriend*.


And no less of an abuser of animals.

One might have thought that by now, as the most privileged, most intelligent species on this planet we should have come to a long understanding that, ultimately, we are the caretakers of the less privileged and less intelligent species.

I find it very sad and tragic that culture and tradition are, or at least appear to be, more important than the welfare of these animals.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Zaros said:


> I find it very sad and tragic that culture and tradition are, or at least appear to be, more important than the welfare of these animals.


Along with the over-blown sense of self-importance that makes many humans believe they have the right to do as they please to every other species on the planet.

.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> Along with the over-blown sense of self-importance that makes many humans believe they have the right to do as they please to every other species on the planet.


And that arrogance will ultimately be the downfall of the entire human species.

Over confidence nurtures complacency.:yesnod:


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> And no less of an abuser of animals.
> 
> One might have thought that by now, as the most privileged, most intelligent species on this planet we should have come to a long understanding that, ultimately, we are the caretakers of the less privileged and less intelligent species.
> 
> I find it very sad and tragic that culture and tradition are, or at least appear to be, more important than the welfare of these animals.


Of course and don't for one minute think I agree/approve/like and would find it easy to be civil if I met him but I also can't take pleasure in a human beings pain and suffering any more than I can in an animals.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Yes I would feel that like, exactly - I had to bloody turn animal 999 rescue OFF last night because a truck load of steers had toppled over, and some were crushed, and some had escaped onto a busy main road. :nonod:
> 
> I have made VERY clear I was not talking about ME- yet you claim I have no empathy- (because you have not read my posts correctly)..... but others like chap in the original story, those with no animal knowledge, those who do not put animal welfare at the forefront of their minds, everyone has differing priorities, the issue here may not be as apparent to "the massess" as it is to a forum of folk who spend a whole lotta time with or around animals......


How do you know he had no animal knowledge?

I can't speak for Noushka (and know she has replied herself anyway), but I _have _read your posts correctly, and I understand that you're trying to see this from the victim's viewpoint, but you have clutched at straws against _overwhelming _evidence.

Eg: Evidence: He was in Spain, in a town hosting a bull run, on the day of that bull run, and in the street along which the bull was running, and got gored. 
Your response: "We don't know why he was there". :huh:

Then you bring up the animal welfare issue inherently involved in bullfighting, saying that not everyone, no matter how intelligent, is aware of animal welfare, but despite my bringing empathy and compassion into the argument - not once, but TWICE, you still choose to ignore them until you, yourself are accused of not having them.



Nicky10 said:


> It seems to be a twue animal activist you have to hate humans, wish pain and suffering on anyone who does something you disagree with and all while proclaiming your twueness and how compassionate and caring you are.


And does that sarcastic and patronising post apply to me, too? Because if it does, I advise you to take the time to visit my profile, where you will learn that I'm a carer by profession. I suffer with health problems myself - yet I will try to help others - people or animals - where and when I can, but there's a vast amount of difference between suffering through no fault of your own, and self-inflicted suffering.

Being gored by a bull because you were taking part in a bull run during a festival of bull fights, falls firmly on the self-inflicted side of that particular coin, so my empathy and compassion for those injured is somewhat limited.



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think thats strictly true, in the days when I was very involved with AR I was still nursing and was part of an organisation of doctors and nurses against vivisection. I used to get accused a lot in those days of caring more about animals than humans but mainly by humans who didn't give a damn about either. I used to ask them what they were doing for human rights or charities and the answer was usually nothing.


Well said. :thumbup:


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Anyhow I don't buy into that whole AR people are hypocrites nonsense. There is not one person walking this earth who is perfect but any little thing each person does helps and makes a difference. If you can help one animal by not doing something but not 100 others should you not bother with the one?


Exactly. I really dont understand what people think they achive witht hat kind of argument...

"i oppose fox hunting"
"HYPOCRITE! You cannnot oppose foxhunting since you eat meat!"
"er ok.. guess ill go hunt some foxes then, you happy now?"

How does that help any animals?
We all pick our battles, and the vast majority (if not all of us) are hypocrites in some way or another... but we do what we can.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> How do you know he had no animal knowledge?
> 
> I can't speak for Noushka (and know she has replied herself anyway), but I _have _read your posts correctly, and I understand that you're trying to see this from the victim's viewpoint, but you have clutched at straws against _overwhelming _evidence.
> 
> ...


NO

I have said he may have been UNAWARE of the WELFARE implications of Bull running. 
Point still stands no one knows why the bloody hell he was there, but this was not the point I was making- the above was. It matters not if he specifically set out to go to a bull run - he still could have been totally unaware it was "wrong"

Noush also accused ME - of having no empathy- so yes she read my posts wrong. One can not have empathy if one is not aware anything is wrong with running a bull through a town, which I am suggesting and have all along that this chap had NO idea bull running was fraught with welfare issues - so seems you read my posts wrong too.....


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

porps said:


> Exactly. I really dont understand what people think they achive witht hat kind of argument...
> 
> "i oppose fox hunting"
> "HYPOCRITE! You cannnot oppose foxhunting since you eat meat!"
> ...


Do you eat high welfare standard meat? or just whats available cheap in iceland? makes a difference to being a hypocrite or not.... IMO


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> Do you eat high welfare standard meat? or just whats available cheap in iceland? makes a difference to being a hypocrite or not.... IMO


i cant afford to eat meat full stop. But if i'm offered some i just eat it, i dont even ask where it came from.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

porps said:


> i cant afford to eat meat full stop. But if i'm offered some i just eat it, i dont even ask where it came from.


Honest......


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> NO
> 
> I have said he may have been UNAWARE of the WELFARE implications of Bull running.
> Point still stands no one knows why the bloody hell he was there, but this was not the point I was making- the above was. It matters not if he specifically set out to go to a bull run - he still could have been totally unaware it was "wrong"
> ...


Oh, OK, right! Everyone's reading your posts wrong, but you're not doing the same to anyone else.

OK. Whatever.

I'm done.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Do you eat high welfare standard meat? or just whats available cheap in iceland? makes a difference to being a hypocrite or not.... IMO


Why does it? He probably eats far less meat in a year than the vast majority of people. High welfare standard meat is expensive so again everyone has to make their own judgement call. I eat meat again now after years of being a vegetarian. I couldn't cope with being vegan (lasted about 3 months) so to many that made me a hypocrite because I still consumed dairy products. Its like saying if you can't save all the dogs in the pound don't bother saving one. As long as everyone does the best they can then I don't consider them to be hypocrites.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Oh, OK, right! Everyone's reading your posts wrong, but you're not doing the same to anyone else.
> 
> OK. Whatever.
> 
> I'm done.


Brill.....

Apart from here
"Except if he just found himself there, knew nothing about it, didnt realise what went on at all, had no idea cruelty was involved until there maybe had even been told the bulls enjoy it, as im sure Spaniards will tell you"

I have not been saying anything about the fact he didnt know why he was there and it has all been about his lack of welfare knowledge..... but if thats what you've seen.....


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Why does it? He probably eats far less meat in a year than the vast majority of people. High welfare standard meat is expensive so again everyone has to make their own judgement call. I eat meat again now after years of being a vegetarian. I couldn't cope with being vegan (lasted about 3 months) so to many that made me a hypocrite because I still consumed dairy products. Its like saying if you can't save all the dogs in the pound don't bother saving one. As long as everyone does the best they can then I don't consider them to be hypocrites.


Thats your opinion which is fine, and Im sure one which many share. Its just not mine, which is also fine.

I guess it is the making one animal more deserving than another that maybe does not sit well. Perhaps within the same "field" as it were. " I don't agree with killing cows for meat, but its ok for them to die as a by product of dairy" It just doesn't sit right with me.... each to their own


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

noushka05 said:


> Ok I apologise, I haven't read all your posts thoroughly - it is a big fault of mine. But if you feel like this, I guess I don't understand why you are trying so hard to make excuses for someone who enjoys seeing animals suffer. You don't need to be around animals or even be an animal lover to see this is cruel - no right thinking person finds animal abuse acceptable


I don't think she is trying to make excuses, more like trying to understand the mindset of why a student...so relatively well educated....could put himself in a position like this...and be there in the first place.

I have no sympathy for anybody being involved in any part of bullfighting and that includes the running etc before hand.I would not wish harm or injury on anybody involved in this. I have zero sympathy for these people even if they are misguided and don;'t realise that their participation only prolongs and encourages this barbaric practice.

I have less than zero sympathy for the actual matadors who get injured trying to hurt the bull.

I would have every sympathy for the slaughterman doing his job as humanely as possible and getting injured .


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Indoctrination is powerful, powerful stuff. More powerful than reason. 
You can't use reason alone when battling cultural indoctrination, there has to be some connection before you can achieve real, sustainable change. 

I mean, realistically, does anyone really think that Spain is a country full of sadistic animal haters who tell their children to enjoy watching an animal bloodied and tortured before digging in to their Sunday beef stew? No. It has been indoctrinated over generations that the corrida is a glorification of the bull and the power and strength he represents. 

Children are hard-wired to believe their parents and when generations have been told that the bull has no nerve endings on the crest of his neck and doesn't feel the pain until he's already dead, and that dying in battle is more noble than being hacked to pieces in a slaughter house, they believe it.
That's why bulls who show exceptional nobility and bravery are spared and sent back to pasture. 
That's why lame bulls and bulls who show too much fear are not fought and instead sent out of the ring straight to the slaughterhouse instead.
That's why when toreros miss with the banderillas and hit the bull's side or too far back they get booed by the crowd for causing unnecessary suffering (yes, really). 
That's why picadors who are too enthusiastic are fired by the matador. That's why matadors are given accolades for a clean kill where the bull doesn't have to suffer, yes, for real. 

This is the script for the indoctrination and it is powerful and it is effective. 

And if you still don't believe me about the power of indoctrination, think for a minute how it must appear to someone with no experience of Christianity when we show our young children images of a suffering, bloodied, beaten Christ, tortured, and sacrificed on the cross and we tell them this atrocity was done as an act of love - for them. If it even bothers you that I brought up the crucifixion of Christ in a conversation about animal cruelty, then you are indoctrinated. That icky feeling? That's cognitive dissonance and that is exactly what those who try to support bullfighting feel. 

Here, I'll give you an easier example. Marmite. It takes indoctrination to persuade a sane person to eat that stuff. Note it hasn't taken off in any other culture. There is a reason for that   

But seriously, until you can find a way around that cognitive dissonance, you won't get rid of the bullfight. And you don't crack through cognitive dissonance with anger (however justified and understandable), wishing ill on participants, or visibly enjoying pain and suffering the participants caused themselves. 

So... where does it make sense to put our efforts? In finding connections so that we can make long-term, sustainable change or in maintaining and feeding that righteous anger towards the participants?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> Thats your opinion which is fine, and Im sure one which many share. Its just not mine, which is also fine.
> 
> I guess it is the making one animal more deserving than another that maybe does not sit well. Perhaps within the same "field" as it were. " I don't agree with killing cows for meat, but its ok for them to die as a by product of dairy" It just doesn't sit right with me.... each to their own


Yep thats fine, each to their own and each person should do what they can taking things as far as they are comfortable with. However I think hypocrisy should be left out of it.

One thing used to really amuse me though back when I was veggie and AR - the number of people who do nothing at all (whether for animals or humans) who suddenly think its OK to take a pop at you and try to catch you out/call you a hypocrite. Its impossible not to be a hypocrite unless you are prepared to die or go to prison which lets face it most of us even the most dedicated campaigners are not. There will always be another person round the corner with another challenge to try and catch you out on. The whole thing about taking drugs for cancer that have been tested on animals is another example. I donate to organisations that do cancer research not involving animals and won't willingly donate to any that do (despite losing my Dad to cancer when he was 46) - the amount of abuse I've had to listen to for that stance over the years  but of course that doesn't mean I would refuse chemotherapy if I had cancer because a) I've contributed to non animal based research which may have helped find the treatment and b) I don't get a say in whether the drugs are animal tested or not because if I did I would say no don't test them on animals I'll take the risk.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Vast difference between being able to see/ feel for the poor abandoned cute doggy, and realising that a bull rampaging through the streets is a welfare issue IMO, and even more so for those who have no animal knowledge.


Not for anyone with half a brain :nonod:


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## Doold1955 (Feb 18, 2015)

What is with the drama on this thread? Everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion. I dont understand this persons mindset at all. I think its just because everybody else was doing it. But, like I said, everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion. There is no difference between abandoning a dog and running with the bulls, IMHO.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Indoctrination is powerful, powerful stuff. More powerful than reason.
> You can't use reason alone when battling cultural indoctrination, there has to be some connection before you can achieve real, sustainable change.
> 
> I mean, realistically, does anyone really think that Spain is a country full of sadistic animal haters who tell their children to enjoy watching an animal bloodied and tortured before digging in to their Sunday beef stew? No. It has been indoctrinated over generations that the corrida is a glorification of the bull and the power and strength he represents.
> ...


re marmite. I love the stuff, love vegemite even more. Husband detests it.

4 daughters, all offered marmite or vegemite as babies. 3 totally refused, number 3 daughter loved it from the second she tasted it...and still eats plenty of it.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> How do you know he had no animal knowledge?
> 
> I can't speak for Noushka (and know she has replied herself anyway), but I _have _read your posts correctly, and I understand that you're trying to see this from the victim's viewpoint, but you have clutched at straws against _overwhelming _evidence.
> 
> ...


I have walked through hounds and fox hunters....didn't make me a willing party to it. Until this student tells his story we won't know what his thoughts or knowledge were or if he will be ignorant enough to do it again.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Not for anyone with half a brain :nonod:


Then there are a whole lot of, caring, kind, loving intelligent individuals with "half a brain" about. 

or a lot if people who are simply uneducated in bull welfare, im talking the running bit, not dying in a ring for fun...... but who know a bit about rescue dogs


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Most people don't have either a working knowledge of a bull or even get up close and personal to one. They have no idea just how powerful even a small one can be and how aggressive they can be or how their mood can change from peaceful to murderous and back again.

I had a horse sectioned off in a part of an otherwise empty field. She was isolated cos she was very poorly...we were giving her time out and watching to see if she needed PTS or not.

Ramblers coming down the path next to the field...where there was no right of way, stop to pet and talk to this horse who was in a lot of pain but on pain killers. They were really stressing the horse out, she was struggling enough as it was.....they had no idea.
I am sure if they had known they would have stayed well clear.

Same with a bull...some people have no clue that the animal is either distressed or sick. The signs are there but you have to know what you are looking for to see them.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Bull fighting is barbaric. I agree. I actually forced myself to watch one on the TV when we were in Spain. Because how else could I criticise if I hadn't watched it?
The fight I saw was considered 'clean' (a 'good kill'), but I felt sick to the stomach watching it. 
Never again.
There are even worse 'celebrations' involving bulls than Bull fighting, but I would rather not describe them (or even think of them).

There are many Spaniards, young and old, who abhor bull fighting. Many of them are involved in anti-Corrida demonstrations, Facebook campaigns and education and fund raising activities.
And why are fund raising activities so important? It's not just so that the demonstrators can all get on the bus and go to Ronda or Sevilla, or further afield. The real fund raising and awareness has to be focused on helping people who live and work within the bullfighting culture.

As ouesi says, many children, particularly in Southern Spain, are born into a culture where bull fighting and everything that goes with it, is a proud celebration - a celebration of the bull and of the skilled matador.
In some parts of Spain, there are matador trainee trials in the way we have football trials for promising young players. And in a country with high unemployment and very low wages, rising through the ranks to become a matador is not only a source of great pride, but of a very decent wage. Very few young men make it to these heights, but many want to try.

The towns and villages these young men live in are most often linked to the Corrida. They may have a bull ring. Many of the villagers will take part in the Corrida too, both at home and further afield. They may be flamenco dancers and musicians, horse riders, carriage drivers, and more 'behind the scenes' people like the food stall vendors, costume makers, keepsake sellers, cleaners, etc.
These towns and villages rely on the once or twice a year Corrida to earn enough money to keep them going for months.

The San Fermin 'running of the bulls' festivals are most famous in Pamploma and bring in thousands of tourists each year. This brings money or its offshoots for almost everyone who lives and works in the area.
To change this event to 'running with the balls' sounds great, and still worth visiting for many tourists...but not the thousands who come to see (and take part in) the bull running.

All these things mean that the very large, and well-supported movement to ban bull fighting across Spain (it is banned in several places already by the way) is going to be a long, arduous task.

It's not just some Spanish trying to hold onto an outdated culture (although of course some are). It's very much an economic concern. People need jobs.
And Spain has a long way to go yet to get out of 'La Crisis'.

All this is a fair way removed from what happened to the student, sadly gored during the bull run, but it's still relevant.

Torturing and killing all living things for sport is wrong.
But I feel that it is also wrong to revel in anyone's hurt, whatever you may _assume_ their beliefs are.
And when we talk of empathy with the bull, that's great. But real empathy considers the feelings of all living beings involved in a situation.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I was wondering would bull fights survive if they didnt rake in tourism?


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> I was wondering would bull fights survive if they didnt rake in tourism?


Is that foreign tourism or a day out for the locals?

I have never been to a bull fight so wouldn't really know but in a local one I would think its a time of get togethers and community stuff as much as anything else.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

Lexiedhb said:


> I was wondering would bull fights survive if they didnt rake in tourism?


No they wouldn't.
Many Spaniards still attend bull fights of course, but the figure is falling more each year. Within a generation they could be gone (at least in the form they are now).


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> I have never been to a bull fight so wouldn't really know but in a local one I would think its a time of get togethers and community stuff as much as anything else.


Every village has its yearly fiesta for get togethers and community stuff.
A few more wouldn't hurt


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## Doold1955 (Feb 18, 2015)

I cant say that Ive ever tried Marmite, but I dont think I want to. I once came across a man hunting Cougar with his hounds, but that didnt make me responsible for the killing of the animal. Was I stupid because I accidentally came across them in the woods? I dont think most people have a lot of knowledge about livestock in general. I despise bull fighting. They would go extinct if it wasnt for tourist dollars. If tourists stopped paying to see it, the bullfighters would stop killing the animals. Except, there is always the locals that enjoy watching it.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

silvi said:


> Bull fighting is barbaric. I agree. I actually forced myself to watch one on the TV when we were in Spain. Because how else could I criticise if I hadn't watched it?
> The fight I saw was considered 'clean' (a 'good kill'), but I felt sick to the stomach watching it.
> Never again.
> There are even worse 'celebrations' involving bulls than Bull fighting, but I would rather not describe them (or even think of them).
> ...


Very informative post, thank you.

Just one quibble (there's always one!), I don't think I'd agree that my empathy has to be extended to all - maybe I don't agree that "true" means universal. Much like tolerance (which I feel very strongly about), it stops at the point when it meets intolerance, since intolerance by its nature does not live and let live. The relativist's nightmare (if my hazy memory serves me right) - there comes a point when I personally cannot empathise with those who wilfully act without compassion.
As far as changing things, yes, understanding is needed....but my feelings don't govern my actions, and I'm quite comfortable with feeling a way that is at odds with what action to take.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> Then there are a whole lot of, caring, kind, loving intelligent individuals with "half a brain" about.
> 
> or a lot if people who are simply uneducated in bull welfare, im talking the running bit, not dying in a ring for fun...... but who know a bit about rescue dogs


I must be misunderstanding you.

Are you saying that most people who have witnessed the bulls running would not realise that it is not good for the bull - with regard to welfare?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> I must be misunderstanding you.
> 
> Are you saying that most people who have witnessed the bulls running would not realise that it is not good for the bull - with regard to welfare?


Perhaps not after they had seen it. Possible imo, to not know a bull charging about through streets is stressful and detrimental to its welfare prior to researching/ seeing it yes. Even then with the hype, party style atmosphere etc surrounding it (ignoreing the fight to the death at the end), if the animal was not visually injured, or cowering (not in a bulls nature obviously) then i dont expect the animals welfare would be at the fore front of many's mind.

Unlike if someone happened across a cold, shivering, skinny dog who was limping and tied to some railings.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

myshkin said:


> Very informative post, thank you.
> 
> Just one quibble (there's always one!), I don't think I'd agree that my empathy has to be extended to all - maybe I don't agree that "true" means universal. Much like tolerance (which I feel very strongly about), it stops at the point when it meets intolerance, since intolerance by its nature does not live and let live. The relativist's nightmare (if my hazy memory serves me right) - there comes a point when I personally cannot empathise with those who wilfully act without compassion.
> As far as changing things, yes, understanding is needed....but my feelings don't govern my actions, and I'm quite comfortable with feeling a way that is at odds with what action to take.


I don't know that there is a right and wrong when it comes to empathy? I would say that your feelings are your feelings, every bit as valid and worthy as anyone else's. I can empathize with not feeling empathy 

All I'm saying is that if you (general you) want to change things, you have to meet the people where they are at, and Silvi did a brilliant job explaining the complexities of the issue. 
And I by no means am saying anyone is responsible for trying to get things to change either, just that *if* you do want to help change things, don't approach it with anger and assumptions about bloodthirsty spaniards who don't care about an animal's suffering. It's a little more complex than that


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

myshkin said:


> Very informative post, thank you.
> 
> Just one quibble (there's always one!), I don't think I'd agree that my empathy has to be extended to all - maybe I don't agree that "true" means universal. Much like tolerance (which I feel very strongly about), it stops at the point when it meets intolerance, since intolerance by its nature does not live and let live. The relativist's nightmare (if my hazy memory serves me right) - there comes a point when I personally cannot empathise with those who wilfully act without compassion.
> As far as changing things, yes, understanding is needed....but my feelings don't govern my actions, and I'm quite comfortable with feeling a way that is at odds with what action to take.


Don't get me into that relativist's nightmare as well 

While I was typing that post, I thought of people I could _never_ empathise with (or at least _understand_);and that's Nazis and the like.
(But being me, I would then go on to think of the economic situation and how people were swayed...etc, etc...).
But I think in the case of the Corrida, there is more to understand than what is, without doubt, animal cruelty.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> However much I dislike people who take part in these things "two wrongs don't make a right" so I try to keep that in mind otherwise we lose the opportunity of educating the general public about what goes on by alienating them, also* just remember he is someone's son/brother/boyfriend.*


I really don'r care, as I said if you play with fire you have to suffer the consequences, maybe they should have been brought up to respect all types of life then it wouldn't have happen.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Unlike if someone happened across a cold, shivering, skinny dog who was limping and tied to some railings.


I feel there has been quite a large misunderstanding here. My point was that people who have no love of dogs could not understand why someone would abandon one after years of mistreatment. They weren't having the emotional reaction you or I would have at first sight (a couple of them are so averse to dogs that they never met him). 
But people who have no love of animals are capable of feeling strongly that it is wrong to cause them distress, not because they are "cute" but because they feel pain and fear.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Lexiedhb said:


> *Perhaps not after they had seen it. Possible imo, to not know a bull charging about through streets is stressful and detrimental to its welfare prior to researching/ seeing it yes. Even then with the hype, party style atmosphere etc surrounding it (ignoreing the fight to the death at the end), if the animal was not visually injured, or cowering (not in a bulls nature obviously) then i dont expect the animals welfare would be at the fore front of many's mind.*
> 
> Unlike if someone happened across a cold, shivering, skinny dog who was limping and tied to some railings.


You see, I think they DO realise - don't see how it would not be obvious - but it suits them to "believe" that the bull is enjoying it.

We could go back and forth for hours - let's agree to disagree


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

And for the record, judging entire nations is not my bag....it's been refreshing to see a lack of it on this thread


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

myshkin said:


> I feel there has been quite a large misunderstanding here. My point was that people who have no love of dogs could not understand why someone would abandon one after years of mistreatment. They weren't having the emotional reaction you or I would have at first sight (a couple of them are so averse to dogs that they never met him).
> But people who have no love of animals are capable of feeling strongly that it is wrong to cause them distress, not because they are "cute" but because they feel pain and fear.


Would one having never been around animals, automatically know stress or fear in a bull? Or elephant or tortoise for that matter?

Not sure i would


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

People see what they want to see and they're raised to see this as right. People can and do wilfully ignore animal suffering if it suits them and bulls just aren't seen in the same compassionate light as some of the other domesticated animals.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> I really don'r care, as I said if you play with fire you have to suffer the consequences, maybe they should have been brought up to respect all types of life then it wouldn't have happen.


I agree - I don't wish for someone to be harmed, but I could care less if they are if they choose to participate in this kind of thing.


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Would one having never been around animals, automatically know stress or fear in a bull? Or elephant or tortoise for that matter?
> 
> Not sure i would


We are going in circles. People don't need to know the signs of stress and fear to know that certain things are stressful and unkind. My mum loathes pigeons with a passion, would have no clue what causes them stress. But she would never let her children or grandchildren chase them, because that would be allowing the child to be unkind. Generally speaking, it isn't hard to recognise that if you chase an animal, you cause it stress. I don't know how else to explain it, I'm out.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

myshkin said:


> We are going in circles. People don't need to know the signs of stress and fear to know that certain things are stressful and unkind. My mum loathes pigeons with a passion, would have no clue what causes them stress. But she would never let her children or grandchildren chase them, because that would be allowing the child to be unkind. Generally speaking, it isn't hard to recognise that if you chase an animal, you cause it stress. I don't know how else to explain it, I'm out.


Really? Almost everyone sees a dolphin smile and thinks how cute, it's one of their most severe threat postures. How many people struggle with dog body language when most interact with dogs on a regular basis? How long were pacing zoo animals seen as cute not animals losing their minds in tiny enclosures?

It's not always that simple.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I do wonder if feeling compassion for this guy is extended to empathy and compassion for those who murder other people and/or the perfectly sane individuals who abuse animals. There was that story a while ago about the lawyer who kept her Rottweiler? in the kitchen without food/water while she went off on her jollies. The dog died a slow and horrible death in that kitchen. Was she uneducated in regards to animal welfare too? A highly intelligent woman like that? Did she deserve compassion? Or what about those who fight dogs or buy dogs as bait dogs? Do they deserve compassion too?

I think it's perfectly acceptable to believe that some people really don't deserve your compassion and empathy. And whether I'm a hard hearted bitch or what, I certainly don't care for those types of people 

As others have quite rightly pointed out, we as humans have the choice to partake in violence/abuse/illegal activities. Animals don't.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Really? Almost everyone sees a dolphin smile and thinks how cute, it's one of their most severe threat postures. How many people struggle with dog body language when most interact with dogs on a regular basis? How long were pacing zoo animals seen as cute not animals losing their minds in tiny enclosures?
> 
> It's not always that simple.


Are these same "smiling" Dolphins the ones that people swim with on holiday. I know a few people who would class themselves as animal lovers and would never knowingly support animal cruelty yet have done this on honeymoon. Where is the line drawn?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Laurac said:


> Are these same "smiling" Dolphins the ones that people swim with on holiday. I know a few people who would class themselves as animal lovers and would never knowingly support animal cruelty yet have done this on honeymoon. Where is the line drawn?


Exactly especially when most of those are from Taji or hunts like it . Bottlenoses do better in captivity than other cetaceans but I'd much rather meet them in the wild.

This is what I mean mouth wide open is a threat posture not a happy dolphin


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

myshkin said:


> We are going in circles. People don't need to know the signs of stress and fear to know that certain things are stressful and unkind. My mum loathes pigeons with a passion, would have no clue what causes them stress. But she would never let her children or grandchildren chase them, because that would be allowing the child to be unkind. Generally speaking, it isn't hard to recognise that if you chase an animal, you cause it stress. I don't know how else to explain it, I'm out.


Was there not a study recently that the majority of kids thought a dog baring its teeth means they are "happy and smiling"? If never educated they could believe that forever.
Not so different, if someone thought because a bull stops to gore folk, its not afraid but corageous and aggressive....... folk simply do not know enough about animal welfare or behaviours, in animals they are not familiar with.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Really? Almost everyone sees a dolphin smile and thinks how cute, it's one of their most severe threat postures. How many people struggle with dog body language when most interact with dogs on a regular basis? How long were pacing zoo animals seen as cute not animals losing their minds in tiny enclosures?
> 
> It's not always that simple.


Learn summat new everyday.........


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

How many "cute" photos do you see of kids and dogs where the dog is clearly stressed out and barely restraining himself? And how many comments do you see of how adorable this is? The average person has little interaction with bulls but sees dogs regularly. So if they can't see how stressful having little kids climb all over them or pull on them is then why would they see bullfighting or the racing as anything but an aggressive animal happily attacking?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I do wonder if feeling compassion for this guy is extended to empathy and compassion for those who murder other people and/or the perfectly sane individuals who abuse animals. There was that story a while ago about the lawyer who kept her Rottweiler? in the kitchen without food/water while she went off on her jollies. The dog died a slow and horrible death in that kitchen. Was she uneducated in regards to animal welfare too? A highly intelligent woman like that? Did she deserve compassion? Or what about those who fight dogs or buy dogs as bait dogs? Do they deserve compassion too?
> 
> I think it's perfectly acceptable to believe that some people really don't deserve your compassion and empathy. And whether I'm a hard hearted bitch or what, I certainly don't care for those types of people
> 
> As others have quite rightly pointed out, we as humans have the choice to partake in violence/abuse/illegal activities. Animals don't.


If this guy turned out to be a bull farmer then yes he gets lumped in with the lawyer. I guess the owners of the bulls could be included here...... no bulls, no run. If hes joe bloggs off the street who didnt do his research then there is no comparison imo


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Well you can't beat running with your failure to understand and going off on one up the wrong tree.
I have stayed polite, and enjoyed the discussion with the grown ups who know how to put their point across sensibly and calmly.
You, Nicky10, are not one of those people, so I'll shut my mouth before I become tempted to get shirty back.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> I do wonder if feeling compassion for this guy is extended to empathy and compassion for those who murder other people and/or the perfectly sane individuals who abuse animals. There was that story a while ago about the lawyer who kept her Rottweiler? in the kitchen without food/water while she went off on her jollies. The dog died a slow and horrible death in that kitchen. Was she uneducated in regards to animal welfare too? A highly intelligent woman like that? Did she deserve compassion? Or what about those who fight dogs or buy dogs as bait dogs? Do they deserve compassion too?
> 
> I think it's perfectly acceptable to believe that some people really don't deserve your compassion and empathy. And whether I'm a hard hearted bitch or what, I certainly don't care for those types of people
> 
> As others have quite rightly pointed out, we as humans have the choice to partake in violence/abuse/illegal activities. Animals don't.


LOL! I was having this exact same thought. On the Peter Sutcliffe thread I had much less compassion for him, than you did  Here I have compassion for some stranger getting gored by a bull. And I can even muster up some compassion for participants who are caught up in their culture and can't see beyond it.

I could sit here and try to reason why I'm right to be compassionate in this instance and not in the other, but the bottom line is, like I said to myshkin, our feelings are our feelings, and all are valid.
And the feelings of the bull are equally important in all this too....


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> How many "cute" photos do you see of kids and dogs where the dog is clearly stressed out and barely restraining himself? And how many comments do you see of how adorable this is? The average person has little interaction with bulls but sees dogs regularly. So if they can't see how stressful having little kids climb all over them or pull on them is then why would they see bullfighting or the racing as anything but an aggressive animal happily attacking?


when I was 3 years old, I went xmas shopping with my mum and dad. We went into a big dept store and I had my photo taken with a little monkey.

I loved that monkey, he sat on my knee and my dad was terrified he would bite or scratch me.

That photo had pride of place in my granny's house...and I was so proud that a monkey sat on my knee.

The photo got shoved in a drawer....cos when I got older, I saw fear on the monkey's face.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Well you can't beat running with your failure to understand and going off on one up the wrong tree.
> I have stayed polite, and enjoyed the discussion with the grown ups who know how to put their point across sensibly and calmly.
> You, Nicky10, are not one of those people, so I'll shut my mouth before I become tempted to get shirty back.


Who's shirty?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> I really don'r care, as I said if you play with fire you have to suffer the consequences, maybe they should have been brought up to respect all types of life then it wouldn't have happen.


So you have never done anything wrong in your life, perhaps as a teenager that you can look back on now with maturity and experience and wish you hadn't done. I know I have, usually through ignorance rather than malice. We went on safari to Kenya once and ended up in little van watching lions eat a live warthog that screamed and screamed, it was horrific and I still hear that noise now 20 years later. My OH and I sat with our fingers in our ears singing loudly to try and drown out the noise with tears running down our faces begging the driver to take us away or shoot the poor creature but everyone else was enjoying it and taking photos so we had to stay there. I guess you could say our tourist money contributed to that animals suffering although the lions would probably have eaten it anyway. When we got home and told people how much we hated the safari part of the trip they were bemused and wondered what the heck we thought we were going to see in the Masai Mara but we seriously didn't expect that so I do have a tiny ounce of sympathy for this lad even though I abhor these festivals and what they do to bulls.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Reading about bullfighting on net after seeing this thread and I didn't realize that bullfighting is legal in Texas. 

The sport is cruel and I hope it disappears. It does appear that there are people in Spain that want bullfighting to be banned. I will say that bullfighting is something that Spain is widely known for and bullfighting used to be the subject of cartoons. However, tradition isn't an excuse.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> LOL! I was having this exact same thought. On the Peter Sutcliffe thread I had much less compassion for him, than you did  Here I have compassion for some stranger getting gored by a bull. And I can even muster up some compassion for participants who are caught up in their culture and can't see beyond it.
> 
> I could sit here and try to reason why I'm right to be compassionate in this instance and not in the other, but the bottom line is, like I said to myshkin, our feelings are our feelings, and all are valid.
> And the feelings of the bull are equally important in all this too....


I didn't post in that thread did I? 

Last paragraph I think we can both agree on. Our feelings are our feelings and no one is right, just expressing opinion.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

DogLover1981 said:


> Reading about bullfighting on net after seeing this thread and I didn't realize that bullfighting is legal in Texas.
> 
> The sport is cruel and I hope it disappears. It does appear that there are people in Spain that want bullfighting to be banned. I will say that bullfighting is something that Spain is widely known for and bullfighting used to be the subject of cartoons. However, tradition isn't an excuse.


and England is world famous for its football hooligans.....but not all of us have ever been to a football match


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

DogLover1981 said:


> Reading about bullfighting on net after seeing this thread and I didn't realize that bullfighting is legal in Texas.
> 
> The sport is cruel and I hope it disappears. It does appear that there are people in Spain that want bullfighting to be banned. I will say that bullfighting is something that Spain is widely known for and bullfighting used to be the subject of cartoons. However, tradition isn't an excuse.


and in the Uk we used to send little boys up chimneys to clean them. They got bathed in hot salty water to make their skin a bit tougher so it didn't tear so easily on the inside of the chimney. Some of them went up the chimneys and were never seen again...and when this was stopped...as it should have been..there would still have been people around saying it wasn;t right, its tradition, where will all the little boys go, who will give them a wage.

If anybody even thought about sending a little boy up a chimney now, their feet wouldn't touch the ground all the way to the psychiatric hospital or to prison.

This will happen with bullfighting too...should have been left in the 15th century anyway.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lilythepink said:


> and England is world famous for its football hooligans.....but not all of us have ever been to a football match


Not to mention the hooligans on horseback in red coats that rampage around the countryside trying to kill foxes :wink:


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> How many "cute" photos do you see of kids and dogs where the dog is clearly stressed out and barely restraining himself? And how many comments do you see of how adorable this is? The average person has little interaction with bulls but sees dogs regularly. So if they can't see how stressful having little kids climb all over them or pull on them is then why would they see bullfighting or the racing as anything but an aggressive animal happily attacking?


Just a little comment on this post. I either ignore or comment on how cute or whatever with photos even when I may disagree with things about photos. It's mainly because photos don't always reveal the whole picture of what's going on and commenting on how the dog is stressed out is likely to result in the person...

A. Ignoring it.
B. Dismissing it.
C. Arguing with me over it.
D. Unfriending/blocking me.
E. Any combination of the above.

In any case, it accomplishes nothing for the dog.

I'm not sure I completely agree with a comparison between a dog being stressed and say a dog in pain or a bull in pain.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

My point was that if people can't read the signs in a common animal then can they be expected to read them in something like a bull? The image of a bull is often aggressive, snorting monster so people might expect they enjoy the fight. Which obviously isn't the case and they're tortured even before they get in the ring but still.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> My point was that if people can't read the signs in a common animal then can they be expected to read them in something like a bull? The image of a bull is often aggressive, snorting monster so people might expect they enjoy the fight. Which obviously isn't the case and they're tortured even before they get in the ring but still.


True. You do have a point there.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> My point was that if people can't read the signs in a common animal then can they be expected to read them in something like a bull? The image of a bull is often aggressive, snorting monster so people might expect they enjoy the fight. Which obviously isn't the case and they're tortured even before they get in the ring but still.


Which has been my point all along.....


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Lexiedhb said:


> Which has been my point all along.....


Exactly.

How many people are aware of just how much the poor bull goes through either? Most people just see the glamour of it and ignore the shaved down horns and the multiple knives stuck in it.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So you have never done anything wrong in your life, perhaps as a teenager that you can look back on now with maturity and experience and wish you hadn't done. I know I have, usually through ignorance rather than malice. We went on safari to Kenya once and ended up in little van watching lions eat a live warthog that screamed and screamed, it was horrific and I still hear that noise now 20 years later. My OH and I sat with our fingers in our ears singing loudly to try and drown out the noise with tears running down our faces begging the driver to take us away or shoot the poor creature but everyone else was enjoying it and taking photos so we had to stay there. I guess you could say our tourist money contributed to that animals suffering although the lions would probably have eaten it anyway. When we got home and told people how much we hated the safari part of the trip they were bemused and wondered what the heck we thought we were going to see in the Masai Mara but we seriously didn't expect that so I do have a tiny ounce of sympathy for this lad even though I abhor these festivals and what they do to bulls.


I may have done a few things I regret when I was a teenager, but I have never taken part in anything that would hurt a animal.

What did you expect on a safari, how did you think lions eat their food, roasted and with a knife and fork.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Happy Paws said:


> I may have done a few things I regret when I was a teenager, but *I have never taken part in anything that would hurt a animal. *
> 
> What did you expect on a safari, how did you think lions eat their food, roasted and with a knife and fork.


Other than support breed bans that get innocent dogs PTS


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Happy Paws said:


> I may have done a few things I regret when I was a teenager, but I have never taken part in anything that would hurt a animal.
> 
> What did you expect on a safari, how did you think lions eat their food, roasted and with a knife and fork.


:lol::lol::lol: Very funny. No in my ignorance I thought they killed them and then ate them not picked bits off them while they screamed.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> I may have done a few things I regret when I was a teenager, *but I have never taken part in anything that would hurt a animal.*
> 
> What did you expect on a safari, how did you think lions eat their food, roasted and with a knife and fork.


Didn't you once say you had, or were, considering lining your rubbish bins with bleach to stop cats getting into them? Which obviously could have caused serious health implications had the cats ingested it.......

Just sayin'


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> I didn't post in that thread did I?
> 
> Last paragraph I think we can both agree on. Our feelings are our feelings and no one is right, just expressing opinion.


Ooops nope, that wasn't you I'm sorry my mistake!
But yes just expressing opinion


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

Nature is a wonderful thing , when left alone to her own devices . She sorts herself out , there is joy and sadness , life and death in equal amounts the cycle turns . Yet harmony exists .... We as an apparent " intelligent " beings , seek to destroy that harmony .... Me i have no sympathy with anyone who goes against the grain .... You mess with fire , you get burnt .


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> So you have never done anything wrong in your life, perhaps as a teenager that you can look back on now with maturity and experience and wish you hadn't done. I know I have, usually through ignorance rather than malice. We went on safari to Kenya once and ended up in little van watching lions eat a live warthog that screamed and screamed, it was horrific and I still hear that noise now 20 years later. My OH and I sat with our fingers in our ears singing loudly to try and drown out the noise with tears running down our faces begging the driver to take us away or shoot the poor creature but everyone else was enjoying it and taking photos so we had to stay there. I guess you could say our tourist money contributed to that animals suffering although the lions would probably have eaten it anyway. When we got home and told people how much we hated the safari part of the trip they were bemused and wondered what the heck we thought we were going to see in the Masai Mara but we seriously didn't expect that so I do have a tiny ounce of sympathy for this lad even though I abhor these festivals and what they do to bulls.


I don't get this to be honest.

I understand where you're coming from. It probably wasn't a nice experience. But your post seems to say that the suffering of the animal was down to the tourists going to watch. It's nature. How do you expect lions to feed. They would have fed like that regardless if you were watching or not.

Nature is both sad and beautiful.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> :lol::lol::lol: Very funny. No in my ignorance I thought they killed them and then ate them not picked bits off them while they screamed.


Sorry, didn't see this. No the animals are pretty much eaten alive. I don't think lions go for the necks to snap them, like some big cats. The females take them down and then feast. It's pretty brutual.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Blackcats said:


> I don't get this to be honest.
> 
> I understand where you're coming from. It probably wasn't a nice experience. But your post seems to say that the suffering of the animal was down to the tourists going to watch. It's nature.* How do you expect lions to feed. They would have fed like that regardless if you were watching or not.
> *
> Nature is both sad and beautiful.


I think you missed her later reply 



rottiepointerhouse said:


> :lol::lol::lol: Very funny. No in my ignorance I thought they killed them and then ate them not picked bits off them while they screamed.


TBH, I would have assumed they killed first and then ate the prey as well.

It wouldnt have occurred to me that they rip them up while alive, I always thought they did the killing neck bite thingy before they started eating!

ETA: I missed we were on a whole new page! :lol:


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blackcats said:


> Sorry, didn't see this. No the animals are pretty much eaten alive. I don't think lions go for the necks to snap them, like some big cats. The females take them down and then feast. It's pretty brutual.


Thats OK. I was just making the point that despite being great animal lovers we found ourselves taking part in something we didn't like because in our ignorance we hadn't thought about it enough before going. I understand nature can be cruel and brutal and that it happens whether or not tourists are there but it just didn't seem right for a bunch of humans to gather round in their mini buses shouting and laughing with the click click of the cameras. It felt so wrong. Not the same as the bull run I know but it just reminded me of it.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> and in the Uk we used to send little boys up chimneys to clean them. They got bathed in hot salty water to make their skin a bit tougher so it didn't tear so easily on the inside of the chimney. Some of them went up the chimneys and were never seen again...and when this was stopped...as it should have been..there would still have been people around saying it wasn;t right, its tradition, where will all the little boys go, who will give them a wage.
> 
> If anybody even thought about sending a little boy up a chimney now, their feet wouldn't touch the ground all the way to the psychiatric hospital or to prison.
> 
> This will happen with bullfighting too...should have been left in the 15th century anyway.


There's also the gladiatorial games which would be considered barbaric by most people today.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not to mention the hooligans on horseback in red coats that rampage around the countryside trying to kill foxes :wink:


no, you got it wrong...fox hunting with dogs is banned ...for 10 years.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

lilythepink said:


> no, you got it wrong...fox hunting with dogs is banned ...for 10 years.


Ohhhhhhh! I guess that means it never ever happens then...... 

And she didn't mention dogs anyway.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

MCWillow said:


> Ohhhhhhh! I guess that means it never ever happens then......
> 
> And she didn't mention dogs anyway.


course it doesn't happen....its illegal and all the people in UK wearing red jackets or not abide by the law, don't they?

and killing foxes isn't illegal....but hunting with dogs is.

don't think I really like the roll:hand:
seyes emoticon.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MoggyBaby said:


> Do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.
> 
> I care very much for humans who are in pain, suffering sorrow, require compassion. I very much like humans who try their best to look after the planet, who also care for other humans, who understand that being the more developed species does not mean being arrogant with it but instead is humble & caring towards those species whose lives run parallel to ours.
> 
> ...


I feel exactly like you do MB x



lilythepink said:


> no, you got it wrong...fox hunting with dogs is banned ...for 10 years.


10 years today as it happens Loads celebrating the hunting acts 10th anniversary on twitter. #keeptheban has been trending top most of the day.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thats OK. I was just making the point that despite being great animal lovers we found ourselves taking part in something we didn't like because in our ignorance we hadn't thought about it enough before going. I understand nature can be cruel and brutal and that it happens whether or not tourists are there but it just didn't seem right for a bunch of humans to gather round in their mini buses shouting and laughing with the click click of the cameras. It felt so wrong. Not the same as the bull run I know but it just reminded me of it.


I can understand your horror at this...it would have knocked me sick too.

The difference here is..you didn't participate in any pain and once you saw the reality, got yourself out of it never to return.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> I don't see the issue with vegans keeping pet carnivores provided they don't try to force their beliefs onto them and make them eat a vegan diet. Surely if the animals are being looked after it's not a problem. Some are special though, the person who told their friend to put down a rescue bearded dragon because they'd have to feed it crickets springs to mind.


I know lots of Vegans who feed their dogs a Vegan diet and they are very healthy, although I don't doubt for a moment they would turn down a bloody bone. I have a friend who feeds her dog a _very _cheap kibble mix (a big bag for a couple of quid) and I will say, there are "worse" diets for dogs to be on other than a Vegan one PROVIDING you do it right (not pasta and broccoli everyday or anything silly like that).

My two had Vegan dog food from a big, established UK company (Veggie Pets I believe) and I've never seen Charlie sit and beg for more (wet) food in my life, he really loved it, the dry he was either/or about, but he is a very picky dog. For me it was two things that stopped me

1) Ordering the food, it was pricey, but that wasnt an issue, it was the treats. I automatically chuck treats in my basket for them when shopping, the Vegan dog treats they had online were very dry and expensive and I know Charlie wouldnt like them. So to me, I would still be buying animal based products for them as treats - so what was the point in me buying Vegan dog food?

2) It does come down to - they cant choose what I buy for them and I know they would eat a dead, bloodied animal (Charlie certainly would kill it, naturally) so where do I put my morals and beliefs? Do I make them eat what I want even though if they could/speak choose they would go for the non-Vegan option? Is that fair on the animals that I choose to bring into my life now have to change what they enjoy eating because I have changed? They are now fed Evolution (dry and tinned).



rottiepointerhouse said:


> I don't think that makes you a hypocrite at all. Dogs are dogs and are entitled to be fed a diet that suits them and is natural for them. Anyhow I don't buy into that whole AR people are hypocrites nonsense. There is not one person walking this earth who is perfect but any little thing each person does helps and makes a difference. If you can help one animal by not doing something but not 100 others should you not bother with the one? We all have our own moral compass and have to choose which causes we support and how far we can take that support whilst still living a life in the real world. Thats a decision we had to make 30 years ago when we were heavily involved in AR, *carry on as we were and both end up in prison or accept we couldn't change everything and just do what we could without letting it become an obsession.*


Thank you  I think I will always feel bad though for as long as I do and a hypocrite, but as stated above, I do feed them an animal based diet. The bit bolded was why I left Facebook as every day I was seeing the most horrific things posted up daily and feeling so helpless, it was really depressing me. So I left Facebook at the end of last year and havent bothered logging back on. I want to make positive changes for animals but dont feel I can when I'm feeling so low.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Meh you take in a pet you feed it an appropriate diet, whether that's a meat based diet for a carnivore or hay and vegetables for a rabbit. I don't understand the people who claim to be all for animals and then care more about the welfare of a random farm animal than the pet on their sofa.

There probably are worse foods than a properly put together vegan food but then corn isn't natural for nearly every animal we put on it.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Meh you take in a pet you feed it an appropriate diet, whether that's a meat based diet for a carnivore or hay and vegetables for a rabbit.* I don't understand the people who claim to be all for animals and then care more about the welfare of a random farm animal than the pet on their sofa.*
> 
> There probably are worse foods than a properly put together vegan food but then corn isn't natural for nearly every animal we put on it.


I agree with what you've said, bar the bolded part. I care about all animals, to me, a pig in the back of a slaughterhouse van is as equally as important as my dogs sleeping next to me in bed.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> I agree with what you've said, bar the bolded part. I care about all animals, to me, a pig in the back of a slaughterhouse van is as equally as important as my dogs sleeping next to me in bed.


To me that's how it sounds when someone tries to force a vegan diet on a carnivore because they feel its right. Its not so bad with dogs but when they try to do it for cats


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> To me that's how it sounds when someone tries to force a vegan diet on a carnivore because they feel its right. Its not so bad with dogs but when they try to do it for cats


When you get people who feed kittens a diet of only pasta (I remember seeing the article online and the hate towards Vegans was unreal, as you would imagine) then that is cruel, that is cruel for any living being. I would not buy a cat because I know they have to eat other animals to survive, a dog on the other hand can thrive on either diet, but again, my morals come into play.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Just heard an advert on the radio this morning for Google Apps.

The man asks Google "Can dogs live on a vegetarian diet?" (or words to that effect).

Google replies "Yes, dogs can live on a vegetarian diet" 

The man replies "Great Rover! Looks like tofu for two tonight!"

Adverts like this, whilst meant to be humorous, give Vegetarians/Vegans a bad name in my opinion as a proper vegetarian/vegan dog food diet isn't just a slab of tofu. 

Just thought I'd add it onto to this thread and see if anyone else has heard it, it seemed relevant to previous discussions.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> Didn't you once say you had, or were, considering lining your rubbish bins with bleach to stop cats getting into them? Which obviously could have caused serious health implications had the cats ingested it.......
> 
> Just sayin'


No, I said I had* thought* about spraying the black bags when put out for collection as they were ripping them and rubbish was dragged out all across the street, sometimes I feel like killing the bl**dy things, but I would* never* do anything to cause harm.


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