# Art: Experts De-bunk 'Alpha-dog' Myth, Time-mag / CNN



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

long URL: 
Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME

tiny if that is archived: 
Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME


----------



## Fyfer (Jan 23, 2010)

YES! So happy to see this in the mainstream media. Happy day.

An excerpt below:



> Says Bonnie Beaver, former president of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA): "We are on record as opposing some of the things Cesar Millan does because they're wrong." Likewise, the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) issued a position statement last year arguing against the aggressive-submissive dichotomy.
> 
> It is leadership by showing a good example, not dominance, that AVSAB says owners should strive for in relation to their dogs.
> 
> Read more: Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME


----------



## Janl (Dec 30, 2009)

> Rival trainer Victoria Stilwell has launched a competitive assault on Dog Whisperer by starring on Animal Planet's It's Me or the Dog and by spreading her system of positive-reinforcement training
> 
> Read more: Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME


I wonder if anyone can help me understand something I've been pondering for a while now. I saw one of Victoria Stilwell's older shows and in the show she was talking about how the alpha wolf always eats first and was telling the owners they must eat a biscuit as if they were eating it from the dog's bowl to show their dog that it was less important than them in the pack.

She is also always talking about how the dogs are at the top of the pack with their owner's being under them at the beginning of the show and, of course, by the end of the show the position has reversed with the dog now in its right position at the bottom of the pack.

Surely what she is saying goes against the modern theory of Alpha-Male Dominance. Do positive-reinforcement trainers, like Victoria Stilwell, still think the owners should be the alpha in the pack or have her shows in the USA moved away from this sort of thing? I don't have Sky so do not often see CM's or VS's more current shows but I thought positive-reinforcement trainers had moved away from the eating first thing.

Thanks for your help and sorry for such a basic question.


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I think VS used to believe in the Dominance theory but has changed now.


----------



## Janl (Dec 30, 2009)

I thought that was probably it, luvmydogs. It is very confusing for people like me who are trying to work their way through all the current theory and trying to make some sense of it all.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Janl said:


> I saw one of Victoria Stilwell's older shows... she [talked] about how the alpha... always eats first and [told] the owners they must eat a biscuit as if... from the dog's bowl to show their dog that [the dog] was less important than [they were] in the pack [order].


hey, jan! :--) 
she had a few of those in her USA-episodes early on, but they were rare - there might have been 2 or 3 total, 
and it was obvious to me that the **dominatrix** get-up was just a costume, not a role she played.

i always thought it was the producer playing the on-camera action for more drama, myself- as opposed to *vic* 
seriously believing that eating a water-biscuit over the dog's S/S bowl would change the dog's perception of, 
+ relationship with, the human - all by itself :lol: 


Janl said:


> She [talked] about... dogs... at the top of the pack with their owners... under them at the beginning of the show and, of course, by the end of the show... reversed, with the dog now in its right position at the bottom of the pack.


i think if we looked at this not as *who is top-dog* but who is deciding things - 
if the dog will get on the couch, when the dog will eat, if the man can kiss his wife or get into the bed - 
then it is not a *hierarchy* but *who is the executive?* who makes the decisions - 
the dog for themselves, the dog FOR the humans, or humans for themselves And The Dog? :huh: does that make sense?

i do not hold with dominance-theory in training or a linear pack-hierarchy in dog groups, or even linear status 
in human families with their dogs - the way i see it, the HUMAN is the parent, deciding what the dog eats, 
when; where the dog may go; social contacts, in + out of the house; safety rules [sit at curbs? stand at curbs?], 
providing exercise, grooming and health care/husbandry, transportation, toys, education, and so on.

dogs never achieve independence; they do not move out, earn a living, vote, own property, etc. 
BUT - i don't have a problem with an adult-dog taking charge in apropos circs, as my Akita did when a threatening 
man harassed us at the tennis-court one day - or letting me know there is fresh bear-scat, and she is worried about it. 
so i see this whole Q of who is in charge as being quite fluid - among dogs and humans, both.

i do not mind in the least if the dog says _i am hungry, i'm tired, thirsty, bored, lonesome, don't feel good..._ - 
or even, _i would rather do this..._ i often ASK dogs what they would rather - play fetch, or go for a hike? 
swim or wade? i will even ask if they want to relax or train - it's OK to express an opinion.

i DO however reserve the right to say, _*sorry, bub - this is serious, we gotta do this now.*_ 
i rarely have any problem with this - my mare + i took turns choosing which way we went, and there was no friction. 
turnabout or flexible decision-making has been fine, for me; i solicit votes, whenever possible. :thumbup:

there ARE of course things that were firm rules; my Akita was never allowed on my bed, for instance. 
toileting indoors was an absolute no-no, too; but these really are pretty minimal, IME. 
most stuff is negotiable, many times. 


Janl said:


> Do pos-R trainers, like Victoria Stilwell, still think... owners should be the alpha...
> or have her shows in the USA moved away from this sort of thing?
> I don't have Sky so do not often see... more current shows, but I thought pos-R trainers had moved away from [eat-first]...


i never saw an episode that i recall past the 1st-USA-season where *stilwell* laid out who-eats-first rules, let alone demonstrated nibbling saltines on-camera over the dog's bowl, :lol: so i think it was very short-lived.

i never worry about when the dog eats vis-a-vis the owners - 
so long as meals are not immediately-before training with food-rewards, or exercise,  
it really is immaterial. dogs should eat 2x / day not once, to reduce gobbling, anxiety + RG, the risk of bloat, 
the odds of obesity - but Who Eats First has never troubled me.

i don't know of any pos-R trainer who is relatively high-profile and says humans should eat first, 
or feed the dog after - let alone that one should 'fake' eating from the dog's bowl before feeding. :001_tt2:

JMO + IME, 
--- terry


----------



## Janl (Dec 30, 2009)

Thanks for the explanation, Terry. What you've said makes sense. The last time I had a puppy was in pre-internet days and just had the trainer at the puppy school to learn from. This time round I am really enjoying learning from you and others like you. Positive reinforcement training makes so much sense and is so much more enjoyable for owner and dog.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> _ *Rival trainer Victoria Stilwell has launched a competitive assault on Dog Whisperer* by starring
> on Animal Planet's It's Me or the Dog and by spreading her system of positive-reinforcement training
> Read more:
> Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME _


i really can't see this as rival-TRAINERS - 
CM/DW caters to an entirely-different audience; older-men, military and police, and other authoritarian folks - 
gang-members, status-seekers, celebrities, etc, ppl who _*really care about ranking - *_ 
will find Dog-Whisperer immediately + intuitively more appealing; humans LOVE hierarchy, it matters to us - 
everything from in-groups in middle-school to class-ranking at high-school graduation *matters* enormously.

i see Stilwell Vs CM/DW as more a contrast of philosophy + methods - 
motivate or correct? reward or punish? manage or set-up a sting?

IMO - 
the folks who really worship hierarchy, believe wolves achieve leader-status by fighting vs parenthood, and are angry 
if their dog embarrasses them by not understanding what behavior is being demanded, are not going to change 
until they SEE that this system as demonstrated on Dog-Whisperer, is not a highly-successful set of hypotheses - 
it will have to blow-up on them, first. *then - * they'll change.

IME the folks who are already using predominantly management to prevent unwanted behaviors, and TEACHING 
to install desired behaviors on cue, will have no reason to change methods - it doesn't matter if they cannot stand 
*stilwell* - hate the accent, the wardrobe, the show gestalt, the sponsors, who cares what? 
they can break out in a rash every time they see *vic* :lol: it doesn't matter, there are thousands of other 
valid, highly-reputable sources. *pryor, geller, mcConnell, donaldson, miller, white, tarrant, handelman, rugaas, 
-kikopup, -Dog-Giggler, -vikidobe, and others in books, on YouTube, on DVDs, in seminars, on-line, all over.

the biggest 'source' for CM/DW-type handling [not training ] is Koehler in the 1950s + 60s - 
there are no other high-profile models of that method/those tools, his 'instinct', Grandad's stories, etc. 
he is a one-off model - with mimics who are ca$hing-in on his fan-base, but none are charismatic or nationally 
or globally known figures. they are wannabes - carbon-copies, not stand-alone individuals.

JMO + IME, 
--- terry


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i wrote this...



> m. pride
> >> I just finished reading a book about a couple who lived in the wild within 100 feet of a wolf pack den for over 6 months. Not only was it amazing to read how they earned the pack's trust, it was very interesting to read just how much the pack operated on a hierarchy. There was an absolute leader who they named Alpha... <<
> 
> some Qs, please -
> ...


and a THIRD person replied...



> Jerry Smith
> You educated folks think you know everything and put yourselves on pedestals.
> 
> How do you know that the ethologist in your example is more intelligent than the grocery manager?
> ...


now WHERE did i say the ethologist was *smarter*? :huh: i was pointing out that ethologists are trained to observe 
animal behavior; grocery-managers are trained to know about retail sales, refrigeration, costs and margins... 
jeepers, what a complete mis-read.  what a bummer. 
- terry


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I know Terry you will have something to say to me on this (and prob a few others) but I don't think that Victoria Stillwell is good enough to 'compete' with CM and his empire.
Her technique, spiel and lets be honest her knowledge is not good enough and too easy to poke holes in - if we want to 'compete' (don't like the term here) with DW and the likes we have to be bullet proof and very very very good.
I have watched all her eps from the UK series' and all the US ones that have been aired here so far (there may be more?) but she is just not good enough. Don't get me wrong when it first started in the UK she was worse and seems to have got better advisors/researchers and certainly R+ friends since she went stateside but those early eps are still available to watch invarious places around the web and occassionally repeated on TV   

To truly promote the R+ message we need someone better able to represent R+ training. Just my two cents and concern


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> ...I don't think that Victoria Stillwell is good enough to 'compete' with CM and his empire.


hey, anne! :--) 
nope, no argument from me... but IMO it is not *vic stilwell* who is COMPETING - it is pos-R as a method. 
its a doggone shame, but at the moment, she IS the only pos-R trainer with a major evening-show  bummer, 
i would dearly love to see competition with 2 or 3 shows of REWARD-based training vs jerk, choke, poke, 
but whaddya gonna do?

:huh: _*Man Vs Wolf-Dog*_ is sexy; _*rags-to-riches*_ is sexy; _*nature red in tooth + claw*_ is sexy; 
_*friendless underdog becomes celebrity*_ is sexy;
_*teaching dogs to happily live in harmony with humans, and to have fun together?*_* NOT sexy. * :nonod:

i don't think *victoria is brilliant as a trainer - she's good, but not knock yer sox off - 
her handling + timing are good but not great; her leash skills are sound, but not excellent. 
as a presenter, she is likable, approachable + expressive; when the woman showed her PINNING tactic 
on little Toby, her face was a vivid image of her roiling emotions: horror, amusement, and worry, LOL. 
but she is hampered by the filming + editing done, too - they could make the training the FOCUS, 
instead of a sideline to human-drama: _will mumsy boot her darling-doggie out of the bed 
so hubby can lie there?  will the BF allow the woman - to whom he GAVE the dog 
as a pup - to [shock! horror!...] CASTRATE his... errrmmm, Her dog?! 
tune in tomorrow, same time, same channel..._ ~sigh...~

just ONCE, it would be nice to see a training-show focus on TRAINING - like *Good Dog U.*


tripod said:


> Her technique, spiel and lets be honest... knowledge is not good enough...
> [its] easy to poke holes in - if we want to 'compete' (don't like the term here) with DW and [his ilk] we have to be bullet proof and very very very good.[snip]...
> To truly promote the R+ message we need someone better able to represent R+ training. Just my two cents and concern


no argument, a better trainer with obvious skills and a good solid grounding in theory AND practical would be fantastic - 
BUT - they have to be photogenic, catchy, move well on camera, and speak well - *plus* the excellent-dog-trainer 
and wonderful people-skills, AND - we gotta get a network or a production-company to BUY THEM FIRST - 
the public only sees the package *after the suits sign-off on it.*

for now? we have *victoria - she is a better *trainer* than she was, the PRODUCERS scrapped that ridiculous wardrobe that made 
her look like an anorexic-biker-chick with Goth leanings from high-school, THAT was a blessing! 
[thank U, thank U, DoG...] :lol: so she no longer swaggers around with a riding-crop flicking the heads off
little daisies, LOL - all good. :thumbsup:

maybe she could have GUEST trainers? just a thought... 
- t


----------



## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I agree with all your saying L4L but the problem is to most of the viewing public and most of the likes of DW fans she is the R+ representative - what she does has a massive effect on the perception of the techniques she uses.
I don't there will ever be guest trainers on her show - they would show her up!
We need someone else altogether who is better all-round


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

tripod said:


> ...I don't think that Victoria Stillwell is good enough to 'compete' with CM and his empire.
> [snip]... if we want to 'compete' (don't like the term here) with DW and the likes we have to be bullet proof and very very very good.


hey, anne! :--)

forgot + wanted to add: *No-One* IMO can possibly 'compete' with the *CM/DW Empire - * 
he has media saturation, a live-in manager, a retail-line, books, DVDs, a website for DW, another for the non-profit, the advertising power + prestige [now tarnished in my eyes] of *National Geographic* which is usually associated with Scientific + Factual information - _not (Non)Reality TV, where one expects to see entertainment, drama, editing to heighten tension in the viewer, and other promotional vs documentary techniques._

the non-documentary nature of DW
CM/DW is not IMO any sort of documentary: it has a story-line, the dog-owners who appear on it have stated that footage was rearranged for dramatic impact or to advance the plot, dogs were made to look worse than they were re behavior, etc.

IMO no one can compete with the sheer power of a channel-giant like Natl-Geo, the multi-nature media promotion, and etc;

focus on addressing *training* and the facts - 
if it's enjoyable for both parties, *U + the dog want to train* - rather than dread it; 
and every dog, 2# or 200#, pup or senior, needs training - 
* for manners in youth, 
* for education as they mature, 
* for enrichment thruout their lives

_*it isn't only 'problem dogs' who need training - 
if they had received training, socialization and habituation, many of the dogs needing intervention On or OFF the television, would never have needed that B-Mod - because they would not have developed a problem behavior.

prevention is better than cure, IMO. :thumbup: training happily makes for longer lives, and less stress for dogs and their people. 
and there... Pos-R whups any competitor using aversives, 'correcting' after the unwanted behavior, and so on.*_

JMO + IME,  
- terry


----------

