# siberian cat breeders and HCM



## kitkatchunky (Aug 18, 2015)

Hello, I am new here. I have joined because I have just lost a dearly loved Siberian cat toHCM. He was 11 months old. He had been diagnosed a very short time and was finally pts having developed a blood clot. It has been hugely traumatic. 
I am seeking advice.from anyone else.who has had a.positive experience of siberian cats and their breeders. I need to find a new breeder with a good insight into genetics and HCM and who breeds for health. 
Once owned by this fabulous breed there is for me no going back but the pain of losing my friend is so intense I don't want ever to go through it again. It's agonising. If anyone can help I would be so grateful. 
Thankyou


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

So sorry for your loss. I work with the breed, but unfortunately not in the UK. Although I know (of) a few breeders there and are in contact with some, we are not close enough that I would dare to vouch for them. I reckon this kitten had a pedigree? There is no DNA test for HCM in Siberians, and also the larger fancies do not prescribe any obligatory tests for the breed, unfortunately (I a not 100% sure about GCCF, but TICA and FIFE both don't require HCM tests), so a breeder will always do PKD/HCM testing at their own discretion. HCM is especially difficult because it is often diagnosed very late, when many breeding cats have already had litters of kittens, who are then potentially at risk. It can also skip generations (as opposed to PKD where kittens negative by parents are definitely negative). There are actually a few names, often found in Siberian pedigrees, that are associated with HCM offspring, but this is not talked about at loud. I take all my breeding cats for HCM screening (ultrasound) to a specialist-cardiologist at about a year old, and then we repeat every 1.5 years.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry to read about your cat, and such a 'baby' too.

I'm a cat breeder of 30 years but have no experience or knowledge whatsoever of Siberian cats. However, in my own breed, the British Shorthair, there is a considerable problem with HCM. One of my kittens, just this week as it so happens, was collected by his new owner who is one of the feline specialist consultants at RCVS Hawkshead. We got into a long conversation about HCM (on which he has undertaken a lot of research) and he said that, where there is no breed specific genetic test available, the best advice he could give to prospective owners was to choose a kitten whose parents, but particularly the sire, were older cats. He appreciated the difficulties of this, particularly when females are frequently spayed before the age around 5 but stud cats are frequently still working at 10+ 

Naturally, they need to be healthy themselves, ideally scanned yearly by a cardiologist and have no history of producing offspring which develop HCM but he still felt that choosing from healthy, older parents the prime consideration due to later onset HCM in breeding cats even though they'd been scanned clear earlier in their breeding 'career'


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## kitkatchunky (Aug 18, 2015)

Thankyou both. I have done some research and am aware of the existence of rogue lines now. I also appreciate the advice to look for an older sire. That makes a.lot.of sense. I intend to scrutinise future pedigrees as carefully as possible now. Yes, I do have my cats pedigree, back to great great grandparents and seems to me as if there may be hcm on both sides. It's devastating. I have lost so much but been well supported too by those I have sought advice from, and I guess it's all part of the learning curve.


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## kitkatchunky (Aug 18, 2015)

HeartofClass said:


> So sorry for your loss. I work with the breed, but unfortunately not in the UK. Although I know (of) a few breeders there and are in contact with some, we are not close enough that I would dare to vouch for them. I reckon this kitten had a pedigree? There is no DNA test for HCM in Siberians, and also the larger fancies do not prescribe any obligatory tests for the breed, unfortunately (I a not 100% sure about GCCF, but TICA and FIFE both don't require HCM tests), so a breeder will always do PKD/HCM testing at their own discretion. HCM is especially difficult because it is often diagnosed very late, when many breeding cats have already had litters of kittens, who are then potentially at risk. It can also skip generations (as opposed to PKD where kittens negative by parents are definitely negative). There are actually a few names, often found in Siberian pedigrees, that are associated with HCM offspring, but this is not talked about at loud. I take all my breeding cats for HCM screening (ultrasound) to a specialist-cardiologist at about a year old, and then we repeat every 1.5 years.


HeartofClass, is there any way I can pm you regarding the hcm names? I completely get it is sensitive but it would for obvious reasons be very useful for me to know. I am not a fuss maker, just a bereaved owner! Understand if you don't feel able to disclose for whatever reason tho.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

@kitkatchunky you will need to have made 25 posts before you can send private messages but I'm not sure if you can receive them.


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## kitkatchunky (Aug 18, 2015)

lymorelynn said:


> @kitkatchunky you will need to have made 25 posts before you can send private messages but I'm not sure if you can receive them.


Ok thanks! not sure I have that many messages in me lol, but it's good to be aware.


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## HeartofClass (Jan 2, 2012)

I sure can PM you and give you a heads up, but I'm a little confused ever since this forum has changed the layout. Is it "start a conversation" I must pick? Or should there be a "send a message" option? In case of the latter, it's nowhere to be seen yet.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Start a conversation is what you want


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## kitkatchunky (Aug 18, 2015)

Dear HeartofClass, please feel free to start a convo with me! Apparently I can't do it yet! I guess I will receive some kind of email notification? Thankyou for your help x


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

@kitkatchunky head over to the photos forum http://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/cat-photo-galleries.27/ and post lots of oohs and aahs, it will be easy to make 20 posts there.


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## kitkatchunky (Aug 18, 2015)

Good 


OrientalSlave said:


> @kitkatchunky head over to the photos forum http://www.petforums.co.uk/forums/cat-photo-galleries.27/ and post lots of oohs and aahs, it will be easy to make 20 posts there.


Plan!


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Just wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss. Having experienced the same thing with our 3 year old British I know how devastating it is for you. xx


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## kitkatchunky (Aug 18, 2015)

Thankyou, miss him every day. 
Heart, still hope to be in touch but not posted enough yet to be able to do the necessary!


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I am so very sorry. 
I too have experienced this heartache with a norwegian. All I can suggest is that you look for a breeder that heart scans his/her breeding cats on a yearly basis and when viewing ask to see proof of this.


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## jltaylor (Sep 4, 2011)

kitkatchunky said:


> Hello, I am new here. I have joined because I have just lost a dearly loved Siberian cat toHCM. He was 11 months old. He had been diagnosed a very short time and was finally pts having developed a blood clot. It has been hugely traumatic.
> I am seeking advice.from anyone else.who has had a.positive experience of siberian cats and their breeders. I need to find a new breeder with a good insight into genetics and HCM and who breeds for health.
> Once owned by this fabulous breed there is for me no going back but the pain of losing my friend is so intense I don't want ever to go through it again. It's agonising. If anyone can help I would be so grateful.
> Thankyou


Hi Kitkatchunky,

I'm so sorry for your loss. I, too am owned by a Siberian, they are an amazing breed.
I wish you well in your search for a breeder and would be interested in who you go for, for when I feel the time is right for me to get another Sib.
If you wanted to PM, even if its just to chat about the breed.

Best Wishes

Jo


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

I see that everyone is talking about HCM and I'm so sorry for hearing of the loss of these fur baby's. My Baby Gus, the one in my profile pic is gone now for six months and I'm grieving something terrible. He didn't pass from HCM but from Kidney problems. But I do know the pain of loss for sure...
What I'm writing for is this; I'm thinking of adopting a Siberian two year old male kitty from a breeder and they are asking to have him HCM tested every year after I get him. They said they will pay for the testing which I don't mind about that but should I be worried about adopting this sweety if there might be a problem? Why else would she want me to test him? I'm confused and worried if I should adopt him and what kind of questions to ask the breeder?
Anyone out there have any advice?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Have you asked her those questions?


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Have you asked her those questions?


I'm going to be speaking with her this afternoon and asking her everything I can think of for sure! But I thought maybe someone might think of something I need to ask or think about that I may not have...
I just don't know if I could handle the heartbreak again and I'm new to knowing anything about HCM.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ask her to explain it all to you, then check back here with what you have been told. Consider making brief notes. Ask about parents etc. - if she is paying for all this scanning she should have results you can see.

Also read the page at iCatCare before you go, so you get some idea what this is about.

http://icatcare.org/advice/cat-health/hypertrophic-cardiomyopathy-hcm-and-testing


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Ask her to explain it all to you, then check back here with what you have been told. Consider making brief notes. Ask about parents etc. - if she is paying for all this scanning she should have results you can see.
> 
> Also read the page at iCatCare before you go, so you get some idea what this is about.
> 
> ...


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I actually think that's the mark of an incredibly responsible breeder. If he was an ex breeding cat, scanning enables her to spay his offspring if he turns out to get it in later years. If he's related to a line she's breeding with, then it allows her to breed with care should he develop it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> I actually think that's the mark of an incredibly responsible breeder. If he was an ex breeding cat, scanning enables her to spay his offspring if he turns out to get it in later years. If he's related to a line she's breeding with, then it allows her to breed with care should he develop it.


I do as well.


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

carly87 said:


> I actually think that's the mark of an incredibly responsible breeder. If he was an ex breeding cat, scanning enables her to spay his offspring if he turns out to get it in later years. If he's related to a line she's breeding with, then it allows her to breed with care should he develop it.


I agree with that, I'm just learning about this HCM and what it all means, but what concerns me now is I'm told he has no papers but I can try to get them from his original breeder but she's difficult to work with and she may not cooperate and send them. But she has given permission to re home him. I've just got a lot of concerns...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lisa Jo said:


> I agree with that, I'm just learning about this HCM and what it all means, but what concerns me now is I'm told he has no papers but I can try to get them from his original breeder but she's difficult to work with and she may not cooperate and send them. But she has given permission to re home him. I've just got a lot of concerns...


Oh dear. No papers isn't good.


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

OrientalSlave said:


> Oh dear. No papers isn't good.


That's what I was thinking. at first she wouldn't re home him if you lived far away from her. I thought that was a good thing so she could keep an eye on him I guess...but I made the comment that I would love him but I live wayyyyy far away. Then she started talking to me that it might be ok as long as I have him tested every year. So I thought oh my lucky day...but once I talked with her on the phone (which she was very nice) I found out about not having the papers.
So now I'm very confused...


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

While it's great she's interested in his long term status, I don't know any breeder who'd rehome a retiree at such a high price. They are generally vet costs or even free depending on the situation. 

The story of not getting papers may be true, that the other breeder is to blame, but for others he'd have been neutered right away not bred from to create unregistered kittens.


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

spotty cats said:


> While it's great she's interested in his long term status, I don't know any breeder who'd rehome a retiree at such a high price. They are generally vet costs or even free depending on the situation.
> 
> The story of not getting papers may be true, that the other breeder is to blame, but for others he'd have been neutered right away not bred from to create unregistered kittens.


She said yes he is neutered and all up to date on shots. But he is almost three also. So yeah I think the price is very high...


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Lisa Jo said:


> She said yes he is neutered and all up to date on shots. But he is almost three also. So yeah I think the price is very high...


Sorry, I'm a bit confused. I can't see any price mentioned anywhere in this thread?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Tigermoon said:


> Sorry, I'm a bit confused. I can't see any price mentioned anywhere in this thread?


Post #21, looks like a quote but there's a post in there


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

She's asking $1,000.00 for him and her currier cost $360.00


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

I'm new to this whole site and to forums, sorry if I don't know how to use it to well...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

How far away is she? Could you use your own courier if you wanted?


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm concerned that the breeder has no papers and wants to send him to you without you seeing the cat - have I got that right? Rings alarm bells to me - would you pay a grand for anything else without seeing it first?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

moggie14 said:


> I'm concerned that the breeder has no papers and wants to send him to you without you seeing the cat - have I got that right? Rings alarm bells to me - would you pay a grand for anything else without seeing it first?


Depends where the OP lives, here and the US for example, it's common to not meet your kitten until you collect them at the airport.
For a retired adult it's a very high price though.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If you decide to go ahead, look into using Escrow to pay:

https://www.escrow.com/what-is-escrow


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

moggie14 said:


> I'm concerned that the breeder has no papers and wants to send him to you without you seeing the cat- have I got that right? Rings alarm bells to me - would you pay a grand for anything else without seeing it first?


Certainly in the UK this would be considered a bit odd but as @spotty cats said, in the rest of the world it is commonplace.



Lisa Jo said:


> She's asking $1,000.00 for him and her currier cost $360.00


Does the cat genuinely have no papers or is the breeder simply not passing them on at the time of sale? I know several breeders who do that with retirees.
The price seems a lot but as I don't know the price of a kitten of this breed in your country I can't really comment on if this is excessive or not. Certainly I would never give a retiree away for free, and for cats under four years of age I usually ask half kitten price.

As with everything, if it doesn't feel right to you, walk away.


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## Lisa Jo (Jan 19, 2017)

Tigermoon said:


> Certainly in the UK this would be considered a bit odd but as @spotty cats said, in the rest of the world it is commonplace.
> 
> Does the cat genuinely have no papers or is the breeder simply not passing them on at the time of sale? I know several breeders who do that with retirees.
> The price seems a lot but as I don't know the price of a kitten of this breed in your country I can't really comment on if this is excessive or not. Certainly I would never give a retiree away for free, and for cats under four years of age I usually ask half kitten price.
> ...


Thank you, I think I am going to say no to this. I know she will find him a good home and I also know when it's right it won't feel like this...


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Lisa Jo said:


> Thank you, I think I am going to say no to this. I know she will find him a good home and I also know when it's right it won't feel like this...


The right cat will come along in due course


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Good luck finding the perfect kitten


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## Diane Wood (Feb 3, 2018)

kitkatchunky said:


> Thankyou both. I have done some research and am aware of the existence of rogue lines now. I also appreciate the advice to look for an older sire. That makes a.lot.of sense. I intend to scrutinise future pedigrees as carefully as possible now. Yes, I do have my cats pedigree, back to great great grandparents and seems to me as if there may be hcm on both sides. It's devastating. I have lost so much but been well supported too by those I have sought advice from, and I guess it's all part of the learning curve.


Hi there we lost our Neva last August at just turned 18 months old he was imported from Moscow
You mention rogue lines. Please can you confirm these to me tjanks


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Diane Wood said:


> Hi there we lost our Neva last August at just turned 18 months old he was imported from Moscow
> You mention rogue lines. Please can you confirm these to me tjanks


This is a very old thread and as the OP (kitkatchunky) hasn't been on the forum for over two years now, you are unlikely to get a reply.


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