# Off lead dogs and their owners



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Hello, we sadly encountered a lot of off lead dogs in the streets on our holiday recently - 6 dogs in three days all rushed up to Molly and she did get spooked by them even though we were walking in areas where dogs were meant to be on a lead or at least close control. We had to go back to a few basics to get her through but it was a shame that at the start of the week we could walk her a road width from a dog with no reaction whatsoever to leaping and turning at the same distance after these events to the point that for the rest of the two weeks we've increased our distances and we're booked for extra sociability practice.

I know many of you have similar problems and I wondered how you deal with the owners and the dogs? My response is to ask the owner (very firmly) to put their dog on a lead right now or recall it from mine as we're training. I may also mention that she was attacked last year on her lead and we're trying to deal with it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

When you say on the streets, do you mean walking along the pavement? if I see an off lead dog on the pavement, I'll generally just cross over. Either the dog will ignore (good!) or when it moves towards the road, usually the stoopid owners react pretty swiftly.....

If we are talking about just generally, I play it by ear, depending on what the other dog is acting like. If it's calm and well mannered I'm not that bothered about it coming up and they'll usually sniff and move on. If it's the rude or manic sort that I know Bo will tell to bore off, I'll just body block it or get her close to me and move swiftly on.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Brock's reactions are so extreme that tbh I'm wrestling with him at the point dogs are that close.

I shout over before that that he's not ok with other dogs and that he's not friendly, but that's usually about all I have time for.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

labradrk said:


> When you say on the streets, do you mean walking along the pavement? if I see an off lead dog on the pavement, I'll generally just cross over. Either the dog will ignore (good!) or when it moves towards the road, usually the stoopid owners react pretty swiftly.....
> 
> If we are talking about just generally, I play it by ear, depending on what the other dog is acting like. If it's calm and well mannered I'm not that bothered about it coming up and they'll usually sniff and move on. If it's the rude or manic sort that I know Bo will tell to bore off, I'll just body block it or get her close to me and move swiftly on.


Yes, pavement walking. The dogs were very in the face with Molly who on most occasions will bark, especially if it's a bigger dog, at which point the owner might then call the dog away. I tend to intervene by being sharp with the owner before the dog has reached Molly. The OH thinks that I'm being confrontational but I tend to see it as preventative (along with going to quiet places, walking at quiet times).


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Yes, pavement walking. The dogs were very in the face with Molly who on most occasions will bark, especially if it's a bigger dog, at which point the owner might then call the dog away. I tend to intervene by being sharp with the owner before the dog has reached Molly. The OH thinks that I'm being confrontational but I tend to see it as preventative (along with going to quiet places, walking at quiet times).


The problem with people is that if their dog friendly it doesn't really occur to them that other dogs might not be. I don't see it as confrontational provided you are being polite which I am sure you are.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Thank you, we can but do our best


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2015)

MollySmith said:


> I know many of you have similar problems and I wondered how you deal with the owners and the dogs? My response is to ask the owner (very firmly) to put their dog on a lead right now or recall it from mine as we're training. I may also mention that she was attacked last year on her lead and we're trying to deal with it.


Honestly, I don't think you owe anyone (least of all random strangers who can't/won't control their dogs) an explanation. You asking them to control their dog should be enough.

Generally I try to follow a protocol of tending to my own dog(s) first. So basically, I deal with my dog first and foremost. Maybe it's telling my dog to get behind me, maybe it's a touch cue with my hand that also blocks the line of sight between the two dogs, maybe it's simply moving my dog away and creating distance, maybe it's putting my dog in a sit or down so I can go deal with the dog.... It just depends. In some cases it might even be telling my dog to watch the other dog, and let my dog give the other dog back off signals.

Once my dog is dealt with, then if need be I deal with the random dog. But I can only deal with the random dog if my dog is taken care of first and under control. Call me a pessimist, but I'm not going to depend on owners to control their dogs. I just assume they won't take control so I do it for them. Usually I just block the dog's access to my dog. I'm usually pretty subtle, but if need be I can make myself threatening too. Treat scattering has worked well for me, gets the dog distracted and gives us time to create distance, throwing a handful of pebbles works well too, especially if your aim sucks as much as mine does.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Thank you so much for the responses. I'm trying to come up with some plans about the other dogs and owners. It's all very useful  Molly is the easier part as I know her!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have been thinking about this quite a bit. I have decided that most people are happy for their dogs to mix and dogs should be sociable and if allowed to mix from an early age should not have a problem with it. So therefore if you have an antisocial dog it is not really anyone else's problem. If you have a boisterous dog with no skills then keep it away from other dogs that might object and try and socialise it so that it stops behaving like that. If you have a dog that does not like other dogs coming near it then I accept it is a huge problem but it is not the problem of any other dog walkers.

Having said that I NEVER let my dogs approach another dog unless it is obvious the owner is happy about it - that is just good manners.

As many of you are aware I seldom walk my dogs on proper walks and seldom meet other dogs so my view might be skewed but I have noticed a huge difference over the last few years and find that most people grab their dogs and put them on the lead when they see another dog or pull them off the path or whatever to avoid other dogs. Is it any wonder that so many dogs are unsure around strange dogs.

I do know that a lot of you have had dogs attacked and scared which is really sad but it is still not anyone else's problem so long as they are not letting their dog behave in an inappropriate manner.

If a dog did approach mine in a way that was likely to scare them I am afraid I would see it off with no regard for the owner's feelings! and if one of mine did the same I would hope that they would be repelled.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I took to walking in the middle of the night because nothing I did made any difference. We didn't go on nice walks to on leash parks because dogs would be off leash there regardless. We couldn't even walk down the street without being accosted by several off leash dogs during the day. 

And while I do think that a dog with issues is the owners problem and that they're the one who should do what they can to create the space their dog needs I think it's pretty damn sh*tty that we're unable to walk down the street or in on leash areas without worrying about out of control dogs. I avoided off leash areas like the plague but was still forced to walk at around 1am to avoid problems. It shouldn't be like that.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Yes, pavement walking. The dogs were very in the face with Molly who on most occasions will bark, especially if it's a bigger dog, at which point the owner might then call the dog away. I tend to intervene by being sharp with the owner before the dog has reached Molly. The OH thinks that I'm being confrontational but I tend to see it as preventative (along with going to quiet places, walking at quiet times).


Oh pavements...I do extra avoidance because you're kind of trapped otherwise. Cross the road, use parked cars to block his vision, suddenly reroute, anything that might keep him further away.



Blitz said:


> I have been thinking about this quite a bit. I have decided that most people are happy for their dogs to mix and dogs should be sociable and if allowed to mix from an early age should not have a problem with it. So therefore if you have an antisocial dog it is not really anyone else's problem. If you have a boisterous dog with no skills then keep it away from other dogs that might object and try and socialise it so that it stops behaving like that. If you have a dog that does not like other dogs coming near it then I accept it is a huge problem but it is not the problem of any other dog walkers.
> 
> Having said that I NEVER let my dogs approach another dog unless it is obvious the owner is happy about it - that is just good manners.
> 
> ...


By default though the only dogs that approach reactive dogs are ones that have no social skills...a dog with any sort of social skills looks at a stressed dog and behaves accordingly.

So it's never well behaved dogs that come over.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Honestly, I don't think you owe anyone (least of all random strangers who can't/wobn't control their dogs) an explanation. You asking them to control their dog should be enough.


I agree with this. I tried to word this last night but couldn't express it well.

What I tried to say was partly this, but moreover I feel you do yourself or your dog a diservice trying to explain she has been attacked. Allowing the other owner to be distracted from the fact THEIR dog has caused yours an issue and throwing it back in your court that your dog has an issue.

I have always had this from the other side though. Dogs in the past barking as they draw close to my german shepherd or more recently to the German shepherd we walk with. The explanation always following is "oh he hates German Shepherds he was attacked by one" The thought is frankly NEVER going to be "oh no poor thing" The owner of the dog hearing about an attack will be thinking along the line of "He wasnt attacked by my dog, and is now attacking my dog so I couldn't care less Why he acts like this, just stop it acting like this towards MY dog"


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I have always found it very odd that people allow their dogs to behave like this. Would you bound up to strangers in the street and hug them or start dancing in close hold with them? How about just jumping on a complete stranger's back and demanding a piggy back? If they complained would you carry on and say you're just being friendly and want to play?


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I have been thinking about this quite a bit. I have decided that most people are happy for their dogs to mix and dogs should be sociable and if allowed to mix from an early age should not have a problem with it. So therefore if you have an antisocial dog it is not really anyone else's problem. If you have a boisterous dog with no skills then keep it away from other dogs that might object and try and socialise it so that it stops behaving like that. If you have a dog that does not like other dogs coming near it then I accept it is a huge problem but it is not the problem of any other dog walkers.
> 
> Having said that I NEVER let my dogs approach another dog unless it is obvious the owner is happy about it - that is just good manners.
> 
> ...


I agree with @tabulahrasa that it's rarely the nice dogs that approach. The dogs that seem to approach us are owned by people who are utterly oblivious to any problems. I agree that it's not anyone else's problem and I do not turn to any other owner to solve it - Molly's reactions are entirely down to how she is trained and herself. However...! We had the typical 'they are only friendly' response from three women with three dogs all bouncing over Molly. Because it was beside a cliff edge I wasn't going to lead Molly off her lead but none of the women were able to call their dogs away without coming up and wrestling them away. Turning away wasn't an option either as the dogs would have followed us. That's not acceptable and therefore I would say entirely that owner's problem to solve and to learn from before their dogs encounter a very angry dog.

Anyway we digress!



Sarah1983 said:


> I took to walking in the middle of the night because nothing I did made any difference. We didn't go on nice walks to on leash parks because dogs would be off leash there regardless. We couldn't even walk down the street without being accosted by several off leash dogs during the day.
> 
> And while I do think that a dog with issues is the owners problem and that they're the one who should do what they can to create the space their dog needs I think it's pretty damn sh*tty that we're unable to walk down the street or in on leash areas without worrying about out of control dogs. I avoided off leash areas like the plague but was still forced to walk at around 1am to avoid problems. It shouldn't be like that.


Sarah puts this much better - thank you.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

havoc said:


> I have always found it very odd that people allow their dogs to behave like this. Would you bound up to strangers in the street and hug them or start dancing in close hold with them? How about just jumping on a complete stranger's back and demanding a piggy back? If they complained would you carry on and say you're just being friendly and want to play?


I am so glad you said that! In the midst of a 'debate' with my OH, I suggested how about I go over and pinch their bums them as that's effectively what their dog is doing to mine with no permission


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I have been thinking about this quite a bit. I have decided that most people are happy for their dogs to mix and dogs should be sociable and if allowed to mix from an early age should not have a problem with it. So therefore if you have an antisocial dog it is not really anyone else's problem. If you have a boisterous dog with no skills then keep it away from other dogs that might object and try and socialise it so that it stops behaving like that. * If you have a dog that does not like other dogs coming near it then I accept it is a huge problem but it is not the problem of any other dog walkers.*
> 
> Having said that I NEVER let my dogs approach another dog unless it is obvious the owner is happy about it - that is just good manners.
> 
> ...


I see where you are coming from but I doubt that many of us with dogs who need space actually flaunt our dogs in front of others. I dont have aggressive dogs and I dont have antisocial dogs, but I do have a dog who objects to strange dogs invading his space, especially those without manners or come over with an attitude, and he tends to escalate his annoyance quickly. I also have dogs that dont approach others and are well behaved off a lead, so I see no reason to keep my own restricted.

However, we do our very best to keep out of everybody's way and to pick quiet areas, keep out of the firing line of other dogs and just keep ourselves to ourselves. I do that for many reasons and understand that my dogs are my responsibility and it's up to me to control their actions and reactions, not anybody else. However, it's very difficult sometimes to achieve such goals when other peoples dogs run the length of a field to interact with yours, and have no recall, or our space is not respected by other dog owners when we are making it very clear we dont want to interact (by changing direction, creating space etc) so under those circumstances I dont accept it is my problem, and lay responsibility firmly at the feet of the other dog owner.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> I am so glad you said that! In the midst of a 'debate' with my OH, I suggested how about I go over and pinch their bums them as that's effectively what their dog is doing to mine with no permission


The thing is it's worse than that because they're running up to accost a dog who is throwing off every 'leave me alone' signal it knows...so it's more like running up to hug someone who is already shouting, don't touch me I don't like it, repeatedly and just ignoring them and doing it anyway.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Leanne77 said:


> I see where you are coming from but I doubt that many of us with dogs who need space actually flaunt our dogs in front of others. I dont have aggressive dogs and I dont have antisocial dogs, but I do have a dog who objects to strange dogs invading his space, especially those without manners or come over with an attitude, and he tends to escalate his annoyance quickly. I also have dogs that dont approach others and are well behaved off a lead, so I see no reason to keep my own restricted.
> 
> However, we do our very best to keep out of everybody's way and to pick quiet areas, keep out of the firing line of other dogs and just keep ourselves to ourselves. I do that for many reasons and understand that my dogs are my responsibility and it's up to me to control their actions and reactions, not anybody else. However, it's very difficult sometimes to achieve such goals when other peoples dogs run the length of a field to interact with yours, and have no recall, or our space is not respected by other dog owners when we are making it very clear we dont want to interact (by changing direction, creating space etc) so under those circumstances I dont accept it is my problem, and lay responsibility firmly at the feet of the other dog owner.


Totally agree.

If we walk in busy spaces I fully accept that dogs are going to run up to us. To go to busier areas and NOT expect dogs to run up would be frankly silly. However, I don't have an aggressive dog, just a one who objects to rude ones like Flynn.

But what I don't accept is that totally out of control dogs should be tolerated 'because they are friendly'. There are umpteen reasons why someone may not wish to have a bouncy dog running rings around them that extend beyond having an aggressive dog and this should be respected.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The other place it happens is in the vet's. There I am just standing at the desk picking up something, no animal with me and suddenly there's a dog jumping up and scrabbling at my legs. The owner thinks it's 'cute'. It isn't.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I have no patience for owners with off lead dogs in this situation. Mainly coz where I live its all busy roads and its a legal requirement to keep your dog on a lead whilst on the pavement! So not only are they morons but they are morons who ignore the law.
I tend to cross the road, hide behind cars or even turn round and go another way if I come across an off lead dog. With Alfie Ive even picked him up and hidden his face so I can sneak past (being fear aggressive I dont want him being forced into a fight which he would undoubtedly lose).
TBH even my most social dog will be nervous and unhappy to meet an off lead dog when he is confined on a lead as it puts him at too great of a disadvantage.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

I think its how we define a social dog.To me a social dog is more used to other dogs, rather than being a social butterfly. Social butterflys are what humans are, which I think the confusion over a dog being 'socialised' at a young age occurs. We relate it to humans and not to dogs, trust me dogs can cope without social media. Socialising for dogs is getting used to their surroundings, so that's people, other dogs as well as the sights and sounds. As humans its very rare we tolerate the jumping up to great, in our face attention so why should the dogs either!

Shock horror I put my dogs on leads to walk past other dogs in off lead areas, because they know its a time to walk past a dog and not say hello in their face. I have always thought this the polite thing to do.

However I still class my dogs as social, although they wouldn't bat an eyelid whilst walking past another dog, because there is no need. We are getting from A to B on a pavement, where pedestrians, and sometimes cycles share they do not need a group of people with dogs stopping and blocking.

A little disclaimer, Stan is a work in progress and touch wood practically there, and Jovi unfortunately is lead reactive and at 14 years old its turn the other way and find space. I would warn though if I had to, because some people do mot think and happily wait for unknown reasons other than the keyword socialise.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ I think the confusion over a dog being 'socialised' at a young age occurs._
Big time! I'm a socialised human but that doesn't mean I like everybody, will accept any behaviour from others, want my space invaded by strangers. It's perfectly possible to be socialised and not be a particularly sociable personality.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The problem is that many people have unconsciously magnetised their dogs to other dogs in the name of "socialisation" instead of training dogs that they are irrelevant and/or being the cue of MORE fun with their owner.


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## Cassyj (Sep 26, 2015)

I'm afraid of dogs I've been biten twice and they where not aggressive dogs. I'm better when it's dogs I know and have watched grow up from a pup and I hate going for a walk and dog comes running up I start to feel the panic raising and I shout to the owner I'm afraid of dogs they always respond with don't worry he's friendly so repeat I'm afraid of dogs after a couple of mins they finally call their dog back.
I have every right to walk the back ways without being ran up to and I hate it when I tell them I'm afraid of dogs and they still think it's ok


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_The problem is that many people have unconsciously magnetised their dogs to other dogs in the name of "socialisation" instead of training dogs that they are irrelevant and/or being the cue of MORE fun with their owner._
You can hardly blame them. Vets run uncontrolled puppy parties in the name of socialisation and every blasted tv programme involving dogs gives the impression that socialised means happy in the close company of any and all other dogs.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm pretty rubbish at this too.


Blitz said:


> I have been thinking about this quite a bit. I have decided that most people are happy for their dogs to mix and dogs should be sociable and if allowed to mix from an early age should not have a problem with it. So therefore if you have an antisocial dog it is not really anyone else's problem. If you have a boisterous dog with no skills then keep it away from other dogs that might object and try and socialise it so that it stops behaving like that. If you have a dog that does not like other dogs coming near it then I accept it is a huge problem but it is not the problem of any other dog walkers.
> 
> Having said that I NEVER let my dogs approach another dog unless it is obvious the owner is happy about it - that is just good manners.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying, and agree in part. It is the responsibility of the reactive dogs owner to keep them out of trouble. Taking a reactive dog to a busy place where it would be usual to have dogs offlead and expecting everyone to keep out of your way is unrealistic and unfair. However, I do think that taking your dog somewhere where it would be reasonable to assume dogs would be onlead (where there are signs requesting this, or on pavements for example) and therefore under control is perfectly acceptable. In this situation I get annoyed if dogs run up to mine when I feel we have every right to enjoy a quiet walk. Equally if you've taken steps to get your dog out of the way - moving off the path etc then I think it's reasonable to expect the other owner to keep their dog from charging up. To be fair we don't have many bad experiences (and my dog mostly likes greeting except on pavements) and usually if I feel a meeting is best avoided for some reason and I take clear steps to avoid then the other owner will keep their dog away.

I do also have a lot of sympathy for owners of truly reactive dogs. Mine has gone through phases of being reactive where I've tried to avoid all dogs and it's really difficult to achieve! If you live in a busy area and have to walk at fairly standard times to fit around work it can be a bit of a nightmare.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

It's ok saying most people and their dogs WANT to socialise so the rest of us should just suck it up and force our dogs to be the same.. But realistically it's always going to be impossible for every single dog you meet to be friendly.

Socialising them all from pups may help but what about someone who rescues an older dog who already has issues with other dogs.. or a dog who's just not feeling very well that day and can't be bothered.. or one who's been injured and isn't allowed to play, too old to play, too young to play, scared of other dogs etc etc etc...

Not only is it basic manners and consideration to not allow your dog to approach unless permitted, but for me, safety plays the biggest factor.

I don't know that strange dog or how it's going to react. I wouldn't approach it myself without asking the owner, so I'm damn sure I'm not going to allow my dog to do so either. Allowing her to approach a potential danger, IMO would make me irresponsible.

Then there's the owners. What if they're afraid of strange dogs? In the eyes of the law, if my dog approaches them and they feel threatened, my dog is deemed out of control. I'm not willing to put my dog in a situation where she could be taken off me and pts.

For the rest of us who don't want our dog to be tortured by every out of control dog.. Our trainer gave us a great line to use in response to "don't worry, mine's friendly" and that's "ok, but mine's highly contagious" and so far, it's the quickest thing to get an owner to call their pushy dog away!


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

Cassyj said:


> I'm afraid of dogs I've been biten twice and they where not aggressive dogs. I'm better when it's dogs I know and have watched grow up from a pup and I hate going for a walk and dog comes running up I start to feel the panic raising and I shout to the owner I'm afraid of dogs they always respond with don't worry he's friendly so repeat I'm afraid of dogs after a couple of mins they finally call their dog back.
> I have every right to walk the back ways without being ran up to and I hate it when I tell them I'm afraid of dogs and they still think it's ok


Thank you for this post.

More and more we are seeing dog friendly spaces be restricted and disappear completely. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that so many dog owners don't understand that not everyone loves their dog. 
This is not a difficult concept yet, I constantly see dog owners impose their dogs on other people and other dogs without a single thought to how that person being approached by the dog may feel about it.

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter *why* the dog doesn't want to be approached, responsible dog ownership is about not letting your dog approach another dog uninvited, end of.

My two are not reactive, they are not elderly, they are not infirm or recovering from injury, they are not fearful, they do not have an "issue" with socialization, they just don't want your f-ing dog in their face. It's really that simple. 
Bates will give me a look as if to say "are you going to handle this or shall I?" Breez pretends it's not happening, which she can because she's so tall she can usually just lift and turn her head and avoid any acknowledgement of the other dog at all. 
So when I shoo the offending dog away I often get confused looks from the owner as if me not wanting our dogs to interact is some sort of anomaly. It's not. 
I don't go running up to random strangers and shake their hands and introduce myself, and most normal humans would find that at least strange if not outright upsetting.

From a human perspective, it bothers me to no end when people allow their dogs to run up to other people. As the poster above shows, some people are afraid of dogs. Genuinely not comfortable with them. And please don't tell me something like "it's just a little dog, how can anyone be afraid of little dogs?" Same way people can be afraid of harmless spiders. Get over it and control your dog.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_My two are not reactive, they are not elderly, they are not infirm or recovering from injury, they are not fearful, they do not have an "issue" with socialization, they just don't want your f-ing dog in their face. It's really that simple._
Sums it up perfectly


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

The discussion of Blitzs POV is interesting to me.
There is a wide grey area I inhabit and have done since my first dog who was a stickler for the polite way to do things.
If your dog is off lead and not called back my dog is off lead and not called back
If your dog is put on a lead my dog is put on lead or walking to my heel...or sent off the path to wait either way my dog doesn't greet your dog.
My dogs do not greet when they are on lead or when the other dog is on lead. Ever. Walking in town or in a field no dog on lead can greet or be greeted by my dogs.
My dogs are not for greeting if Im sat down. If I sit they sit. If you are a human and Im not busy I will stand whilst you say hello, if you are a dog, bugger off...but then they are normally on lead when I sit, even if Im not holding the other end 

But, and I use human examples as others have, but I do not think humans are the same, my dog will not run up and jump on your dog, in the same way my "child" will not run up and jump on or hug your "child" if they were strangers as that is rude, but if my dog cannot enter the same space whilst ignoring your dog (such as passing or sniffing a similar area) as your dog without risk of getting bitten I see that as unreasonable as for example someone saying "your child can't use a slide at the park because my child is using that area of the park and if it does use the same slide I feel my child is in its rights to punch or slap your child"
Like I say, a strange middle ground in what I think is MY issue and what I feel is the other owners issue.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I own one of those nuisance social butterflies now. Trying to get him out of it but quite honestly I think it's a losing battle. I do my best to make sure he isn't a problem and if I do slip up I'm straight after him and apologising profusely. I'm not perfect but it's rare we have an incident. And I know an apology doesn't make it okay but I always felt better about those who hurried to get their dog and say sorry than I did about those who ignored it.

Spen is pretty good at reading other dogs and generally won't approach one who's unwelcoming. For the most part he'll approach to a certain distance and wait for them to come to him although there have been times he's rushed up rudely. I keep him on lead if I can't see beyond the distance he usually approaches at.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_but if my dog cannot enter the same space whilst ignoring your dog (such as passing or sniffing a similar area) as your dog without risk of getting bitten I see that as unreasonable_
What do you consider a similar area? If someone has their dog on a lead and yours is loose I take it you mean your dog should be able to come very close. Basically you're saying the owner of a loose dog can't be faulted for not keeping their dog under control even when another owner has theirs right by them and on a lead.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/dog-training-6-ways-thwart-off-leash-rushing


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have been to a country park today, it was quite busy and I accepted some dogs may come over to mine, and it wasnt an issue because my dogs were feeling relaxed and therefore Flynn didnt object to dogs coming over, but mostly they just ignored so all in all a very nice walk.

But picking up on what Ouesi said about dogs being imposed on to other people, I saw it many times today. I was out with my Mum and she is fine with my dogs but in general isnt a massive dog fan and is quite intolerant of many things they do. One family in particular had some young poodle cross which they were allowing to go over and jump up other people and jump on other dogs (it was on an extending lead so easily controllable). It jumped up my Mum as she walked past and she had a bit of a grumble to me about it. I simply said people think just because THEY love their dog and think it's uber cute or funny or whatever, that other people automatically feel the same way.

If it's a busy area my dogs go on lead, as they did many times today, so that they dont get under peoples feet, dont have the opportunity to nick a packet of crisps from a kid in a buggy etc and they are under strict control. Not exactly related but I feel the need to share...Jed now wears a yellow bandana asking people to respect his space as he does not like strangers touching him and sometimes people think they have the right to just reach out and pat him on the head when he is just minding his own business (i'm not normally an advocate of such schemes but feel since it's humans he can take issue with and they have the ability to read and understand, it might work). We had sat down at the cafe and I could hear the couple next to us discussing his bandana, wondering what it said. In an effort to educate them I told them what it said and explained he doesnt like strangers touching him. So, the man immediately reaches his hand out to Jed and says "do you like saying hello to strangers?" (he couldnt actually reach Jed as i'd tucked him under the table). I mean, seriously??? Why would you even attempt to touch a dog that you've just been told doesnt like strangers touching him? The stupidity of the human race knows no bounds.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

One of the (many) reasons I am not a supporter of the DINOS and similar campaigns..................


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

havoc said:


> What do you consider a similar area? If someone has their dog on a lead and yours is loose I take it you mean your dog should be able to come very close. Basically you're saying the owner of a loose dog can't be faulted for not keeping their dog under control even when another owner has theirs right by them and on a lead.


Sorry had to edit as notebook had a mental breakdown mid post.
Your interpretation of what I mean strikes me as extremely odd, what with it being the exact opposite of what I clearly said.



> If your dog is put on a lead my dog is put on lead or walking to my heel...or sent off the path to wait either way my dog doesn't greet your dog


.

I very clearly say if someone puts their dog on lead Ill put my dog on lead so No what you take it I mean, is you taking I mean the complete opposite of what I say. Please try to not say "Basically you're saying" and then show yourself up by showing you have read or understood basically Nothing of what I was saying


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I try to plan my walks so that I have a minimum of two potential escape routes.

On my main walk I go through a small alley, but if there's a dog I wait behind some trees/bushes until it's gone away. If there's a dog and the owner is talking to someone else, I avoid that path and take a short detour.

Generally I cross the road/wait behind a parked car until other the other dog has gone by so they can't see each other. If I see a particularly 'playful' dog when I'm at the nature reserve, I run in the other direction.

It sounds a little over the top, but I only trust myself to keep my dogs safe and out of trouble. My ninja planning has helped me to avoid strange dogs for over 3 years :Smuggrin.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

havoc said:


> _but if my dog cannot enter the same space whilst ignoring your dog (such as passing or sniffing a similar area) as your dog without risk of getting bitten I see that as unreasonable_
> What do you consider a similar area? If someone has their dog on a lead and yours is loose I take it you mean your dog should be able to come very close. Basically you're saying the owner of a loose dog can't be faulted for not keeping their dog under control even when another owner has theirs right by them and on a lead.


It's not black and white. Yes if your dog is onlead then ideally other people wouldn't let their dog approach. However, we all know it happens, so I think if you are walking a dog unmuzzled who you know is likely to use its teeth in an area where there is the potential to be other dogs and it bites another dog then I think you carry a large portion of the blame even if it's on-lead. If another dog greeted an onlead dog in a fairly inoffensive manner (which happens frequently to me when I walk my dog onlead) and the onlead dog bit it then whilst I would consider the offlead dogs owner to bear some responsibility if the onlead dog had a history of such behaviour then I would portion more of the blame on that dogs owner as their management is clearly not up to scratch.

It's about proportionate responses. Yes it's wrong for other dogs to invade your dogs space, but is their response to this infraction (which whether you like it or not is going to happen on occasion) appropriate? If they are likely to grumble or bark/snap then fair enough. If they are likely to start a fight or dive in with their teeth then that is (in my opinion) disproportionate and you need some serious management in place to stop this happening - muzzling/some efficient human intervention to ward off other dogs/whatever works.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> I own one of those nuisance social butterflies now. Trying to get him out of it but quite honestly I think it's a losing battle. I do my best to make sure he isn't a problem and if I do slip up I'm straight after him and apologising profusely. I'm not perfect but it's rare we have an incident. And I know an apology doesn't make it okay but I always felt better about those who hurried to get their dog and say sorry than I did about those who ignored it.
> 
> Spen is pretty good at reading other dogs and generally won't approach one who's unwelcoming. For the most part he'll approach to a certain distance and wait for them to come to him although there have been times he's rushed up rudely. I keep him on lead if I can't see beyond the distance he usually approaches at.


Sarah, your doing your best to manage 'social butterfly Spen'.
Believe me acknowledgment that this behaviour is not ideal is refreshing.
So apologising does go along way.

Maybe manage seems a bit naff word, because I know you have come a long way with Spen so maybe you need a medal (would insert smiley face on phone)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_If they are likely to grumble or bark/snap then fair enough. If they are likely to start a fight or dive in with their teeth then that is (in my opinion) disproportionate_
How about the small dog which runs up to a large one which is just playful - one playful jump and you could be talking a broken limb for a small breed. This assumption of aggression is grossly unfair. One type of lead reactivity is known as an over enthusiastic greeter - no aggression.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I find it extremely irritating even watching a dog charge round the park, willy nilly, invading the space of other dogs and their owners.

Irritating too are their owners who, usually, love their little darling so much, they're sure you will fall in love with him too, so allow him to come rushing over so that you can immediately become captivated with him.

Some, I'm sure, are just lazy and it's easier to wander round in a haze, or stand round yakking, whilst their dog creates havoc.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

kare said:


> but if my dog cannot enter the same space whilst ignoring your dog (such as passing or sniffing a similar area) as your dog without risk of getting bitten I see that as unreasonable


I don't think anyone is advocating for that though.

One of my dogs does therapy work, part of that includes being in elevators (lifts for you brits) with other dogs. I can cram my dog and several other therapy dogs in a lift and they all ignore each other as per the rules of our group. Some people with small dogs may choose to pick their dogs up, but same thing, dogs are ignoring each other. 
In the same way we go to many dog events and venues where my dog has to pass by other dogs in close proximity, or be in the same ring with another dog. Dogs are expected to ignore each other. That means not only no aggression, but also no attempted greetings, or play invites either. We often show with dogs my dog knows socially and has a relationship with. He knows that in a working environment we don't go putting back play ears at our friends, and they know that too. It takes training though, plenty of occasions he would see his "friend" and get all giddy. He had to learn when that was acceptable and when it wasn't.

I think there is a huge misunderstanding about socializing a dog and what that means. 
Instead of dogs learning about the world and the different stuff in it, dogs are learning that other dogs = *must interact*. At best this creates a magnetized dog who goes deaf at the sight of other dogs, at worst it can creates a reactive dog for whom the presence of other dogs is unsettling and nerve-wracking.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

havoc said:


> _If they are likely to grumble or bark/snap then fair enough. If they are likely to start a fight or dive in with their teeth then that is (in my opinion) disproportionate_
> How about the small dog which runs up to a large one which is just playful - one playful jump and you could be talking a broken limb for a small breed. This assumption of aggression is grossly unfair. One type of lead reactivity is known as an over enthusiastic greeter - no aggression.


Why am I being grossly unfair? I just said that if you know your dog is likely to bite (and I mentioned biting because the original paragraph you quoted regarded biting) then you have a responsibility to stop it from happening. you also clearly have a responsibility to stop your dog harming or distressing a dog through over exuberance or any other behaviour.

My point is that we all have a responsibility to control our own dogs. That means either RELIABLE verbal control or a lead. It also means ensuring that they are able to handle day to day events without causing harm to others. I'm afraid that rightly or wrongly a dog approaching is a relatively frequent occurrence in many areas and if in that situation your dogs reaction is going to harm the other dog then you have a responsibility to prevent that (whether it is by muzzling your dog or having some very effective deterrent techniques).

I don't think a single person on here has said that its ok to let your dog run up to onlead dogs. I certainly don't think it's ok either. But I do think we need to acknowledge it happens and have a sensible strategy for dealing with it.

By the way my dog is definitely in the "doesn't like dogs running up and can be a bit reactive" camp - I'm not writing this from the perspective of someone with a friendly dog who doesn't understand why people want them to control it....


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

Sarahliz100 said:


> It's about proportionate responses. Yes it's wrong for other dogs to invade your dogs space, but is their response to this infraction (which whether you like it or not is going to happen on occasion) appropriate? If they are likely to grumble or bark/snap then fair enough. If they are likely to start a fight or dive in with their teeth then that is (in my opinion) disproportionate and you need some serious management in place to stop this happening - muzzling/some efficient human intervention to ward off other dogs/whatever works.


Yes, but it's of course far more complex than that.
One of my dogs gives and accepts fair corrections. However if the other dog resists a fair correction, he will escalate to using teeth with purpose. He's not out to maim or kill, but he is out to make a point.

My other dog is a giant breed who developed a habit of dramatic leaping play bows and side swipes when she's unsure or conflicted with another dog, or just bored, apparently it's fun to make another dog jump out of his/her skin . 
Of course we have worked to stop her doing this and she rarely does these days and when she is about to she totally gives herself away anyway so I can tell her to knock it off.

I'm actually more bothered by my great dane's response even though she never makes contact with the other dog than my mutt dog's response that includes teeth. 
The mutt escalates in textbook style, with ample, clear warning, and is very clear about the lesson he's teaching. He's not going to harass a fearful dog or a puppy who doesn't know better (yet). 
The great dane doesn't do any physical damage, but she's more likely to react this way to unsure dogs who don't know what to make of her. She knows how to give a fair correction to rude dogs, and she's perfectly fine with confident dogs, but unsure dogs bother her and her OTT reaction to them could be very damaging emotionally to an under confident dog.

So it gets really tricky trying to decide what is okay and what isn't. 
If we would all just tend to our own dogs and keep them away from other dogs it would all take care of itself


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

Sarahliz100 said:


> My point is that we all have a responsibility to control our own dogs. That means either RELIABLE verbal control or a lead.


Yes
I am getting the impression though that when some owners are saying on lead they just mean a lead is attached.
When we, and I hope most on here, say on lead it seems maybe we mean what it should really mean. ie my dog is attached to me AND under my control through effective use of that lead or other equipment if needed.
If on lead meant the same to all IMO there would not be the discussion of "if my dog is on lead AND attacks or on lead and stamps on your dog" bar a situation where the other dog is so out of control that it has put its head in your dogs mouth or directly under its paws LOL


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

kare said:


> Yes
> I am getting the impression though that when some owners are saying on lead they just mean a lead is attached.
> When we, and I hope most on here, say on lead it seems maybe we mean what it should really mean. ie my dog is attached to me AND under my control through effective use of that lead or other equipment if needed.
> If on lead meant the same to all IMO there would not be the discussion of "if my dog is on lead AND attacks or on lead and stamps on your dog" bar a situation where the other dog is so out of control that it has put its head in your dogs mouth or directly under its paws LOL


We used to use private parks, English Heritage and National Trust places for practice but many now use the phrase 'close control' which I think some less than intelligent owners mean do whatever they like with the dog


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> We used to use private parks, English Heritage and National Trust places for practice but many now use the phrase 'close control' which I think some less than intelligent owners mean do whatever they like with the dog


I was at a country park last weekend where my son and his girlfriend were taking part in an owl experience.

The people who run the experience had set up their area and had their owls as well as other birds of prey tethered, and sheltered as best you can in an open space.

The park itself clearly states All dogs must be on lead at all times, there are 'formal signs and nice pretty handmade signs with pictures of French bulldogs.

During owl experience people get to handle owls, and low and behold some idiot had a Chihuahua free running whilst the biggest owl was let free. Person was asked to control their dog, so clips on a flexi and the dogs still bombing round whilst owner texting on mobile phone. The man in charge of the owl experience had to stop and ask the person to take control of their dog, and that this was a private event to move on anyway. The person thought it was highly amusing that the owl person said their dog would make a nice dinner for the owl....some people!


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Yes, but it's of course far more complex than that.
> One of my dogs gives and accepts fair corrections. However if the other dog resists a fair correction, he will escalate to using teeth with purpose. He's not out to maim or kill, but he is out to make a point.
> 
> My other dog is a giant breed who developed a habit of dramatic leaping play bows and side swipes when she's unsure or conflicted with another dog, or just bored, apparently it's fun to make another dog jump out of his/her skin .
> ...


But you intervene though right? You've (very helpfully) described on several occasions your techniques for getting rid of other dogs so that your dogs don't have to deal with it themselves.

I agree that no-one would have a problem if everyone kept their dogs away from others. But in many places that's simply not the norm.......


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

lullabydream said:


> During owl experience people get to handle owls, and low and behold some idiot had a Chihuahua free running whilst the biggest owl was let free. Person was asked to control their dog, so clips on a flexi and the dogs still bombing round whilst owner texting on mobile phone. The man in charge of the owl experience had to stop and ask the person to take control of their dog, and that this was a private event to move on anyway. The person thought it was highly amusing that the owl person said their dog would make a nice dinner for the owl....some people!


Wow... There are no words really....

Reminds me of the time I was walking mutt dog and great dane bitch (on leash) through the neighborhood and 6 chihuahuas suddenly materialized out of the ether, all charging towards my dogs, barefoot owner running after them. 
I stopped my dogs and put them behind me, more than a little worried as my great dane (still young at the time) was getting a "squirrel?! :Woot:Woot" look about her.
As the dogs kept coming I stomped my foot and did my best voice of doom go away to which the owner replied, "oh, don't worry, they don't bite!" 
Dude... like them biting is what I'm worried about. My great dane's head is bigger than three of the dogs, and if they decide to give her a face inspection, I can't guarantee that she won't do a rodent inspection on them.

Fortunately they did seem to have some sense of self preservation as they got closer and realized neither of my two were giving off friendly signals. They ran off in to someone's yard, still with barefoot genius owner chasing them....


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

Sarahliz100 said:


> But you intervene though right? You've (very helpfully) described on several occasions your techniques for getting rid of other dogs so that your dogs don't have to deal with it themselves.
> 
> I agree that no-one would have a problem if everyone kept their dogs away from others. But in many places that's simply not the norm.......


Yup. 
And I'm very good at intervening and preventing encounters because of all the many times I failed to prevent an encounter. Every failure was a learning experience and my own personal "bag of tricks" is quite full due to those many failures


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

I made the mistake of 'socialising' Teddy too well with other dogs....... He is one of those dogs that will even lay down occasionally as he wants to greet other dogs.... 

I can pick him up of course to move him on which has proved useful many times but being aware of how much he loves other dogs he is on lead pretty much all the time if there's a chance of meeting another dog. There are places we can go to where he can have a good run and he recalls just fine when there's no other dogs about!

I am trying to work on this behaviour (suggestions welcome!) but it's not really a major problem to keep him on lead and to pull him in close when necessary - including a Flexi' (I am very good at reeling in quickly lol!) - and I find it very hard to understand why other people feel their dogs should be off lead all the time..... 

Whisper doesn't like other dogs round her. I body block them these days (my confidence has grown!) as it's not fair for her to feel hassled. She is 11 1/2 but that aside - she just doesn't like dogs round her. She never has. She occasionally takes a shine to smaller dogs but generally just wants to be left alone. And frankly, why shouldn't she be left alone? I too feel no qualms about upsetting / offending a stranger as Whisper's needs come first!

As for other dogs running up to people uninvited - well that's just stupid and totally irresponsible.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I don't think anyone is advocating for that though.
> I think there is a huge misunderstanding about socializing a dog and what that means.
> Instead of dogs learning about the world and the different stuff in it, dogs are learning that other dogs = *must interact*. At best this creates a magnetized dog who goes deaf at the sight of other dogs, at worst it can creates a reactive dog for whom the presence of other dogs is unsettling and nerve-wracking.


You could well be right but it also depends on the dog. My two seldom meet other dogs. I took them to visit friends with dogs when they were pups to give them some socialisation. I took them to a couple of puppy classes each for the same reason and we have had visiting dogs. One of them is people and dog mad and is a struggle to keep focused when out in an area where there are people and dogs. The other one will go past people without a second glance and politely greet other dogs that approach her. I can take no credit for a naturally polite dog and no blame for a mad thug of a dog.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

Blitz said:


> You could well be right but it also depends on the dog. My two seldom meet other dogs. I took them to visit friends with dogs when they were pups to give them some socialisation. I took them to a couple of puppy classes each for the same reason and we have had visiting dogs. One of them is people and dog mad and is a struggle to keep focused when out in an area where there are people and dogs. The other one will go past people without a second glance and politely greet other dogs that approach her. I can take no credit for a naturally polite dog and no blame for a mad thug of a dog.


You can't take credit or blame for your dogs' genetics, but you can take credit and blame for how you manage and train those genetics.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> I was at a country park last weekend where my son and his girlfriend were taking part in an owl experience.
> 
> The people who run the experience had set up their area and had their owls as well as other birds of prey tethered, and sheltered as best you can in an open space.
> 
> ...


Oh good grief, honestly what an idiot. It's the frustration that they think it's amusing that grates me the most. Is that like the seagull and the poor dog who was pecked to death? I seem to recall the dog was just left unsupervised below a nest.

We have so much selective reading of signs at a favourite walk, especially by the weekend walks (you wonder how they must know to read a calendar and realise it's Saturday) that we avoid it now. It's awful as they will let dogs run all over the place where there are rare birds nesting. They really do get on my nerves.


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## BrackenFlight (Mar 9, 2015)

It deeply annoys me when people walk off-lead in places they shouldn't. Especially next to busy roads and such. I dont care how well you think you have your dog trained, it could always get distracted or spooked and run off. It annoys me even more when the owner doesn't even seem to care what their dog is doing - jumping up on people, crapping, ect.. -_-


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

ouesi said:


> a little worried as my great dane (still young at the time) was getting a "squirrel?! :Woot:Woot" look about her.


That did make me laugh!


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## Hanlou (Oct 29, 2012)

@BrackenFlight - me too!!

Recently we witnessed someone 'ushering' two very young (puppies, basically) JRT's across a busy road! Not a lead in sight! We actually had to stop the car to let them get across the road! Why?! :Jawdrop


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## BrackenFlight (Mar 9, 2015)

Hanlou said:


> @BrackenFlight - me too!!
> 
> Recently we witnessed someone 'ushering' two very young (puppies, basically) JRT's across a busy road! Not a lead in sight! We actually had to stop the car to let them get across the road! Why?! :Jawdrop


The amount of time I have seen people walking away or turning a corner completely unaware that their dog has stopped to sniff something. Several times I have stopped to catch what i thought was a stray or loose dog, and the owner comes running back from up the street!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sarahliz100 said:


> I agree that no-one would have a problem if everyone kept their dogs away from others. But in many places that's simply not the norm.......


Nope, norm where I walk is that dogs meet and greet as they pass. To be honest, it's partly the reason I choose to walk where I do, it makes me feel less of an ******* on the odd occasion I do slip up and Spen goes to introduce himself before I've checked it's okay. I have absolutely no objection to what is the norm there, if I'm not in the mood to deal with meet and greets then I go elsewhere. I'm happy to keep my dog to myself where necessary  Been on the other side and my usual place to walk Spen was somewhere I never, ever took Rupert.

Yet we saw someone with 6 clearly not friendly dogs on leash there last week. Me, Jack and Spen had to shuffle past sideways without about 2 inches between the backs of my legs (I had Jack on my chest so turned so I was between them and him) and the teeth of all these dogs. It was not pleasant and I question why the hell they were being walked there as there is literally nowhere to create space, very narrow paths and 99% of dogs are off leash and allowed to approach all and sundry. I mean, yes, they have every right to walk there. But it can't make for a pleasant walk for either dogs or owner surely? Or people put in the same situation I was. I'm just so glad Spen has learned to completely ignore dogs having a go at close range providing they don't make contact.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2015)

kare said:


> That did make me laugh!


After the fact, with no injured dogs it was definitely funny. 
In the moment as I was trying to figure out in my head how I was going to play keep away with 6 dogs, it was not.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

0


lullabydream said:


> Sarah, your doing your best to manage 'social butterfly Spen'.
> Believe me acknowledgment that this behaviour is not ideal is refreshing.
> So apologising does go along way.
> 
> Maybe manage seems a bit naff word, because I know you have come a long way with Spen so maybe you need a medal (would insert smiley face on phone)


haha, don't think I deserve a medal, I just do my best to not put anyone in the situations I was so often put in with Rupert. And with Shadow who wasn't aggressive but whose back legs were going and who was easily knocked down and trampled by rude dogs.

I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me a few weeks ago though. There was a corner coming up about 50 metres away, well beyond the distance Spen feels the need to go and introduce himself (I call him back as we get close to them) and this black lab appears. Spen instantly bombs over to it and humps it to within an inch of its life before my brother managed to catch him. Talk about mortified! He has never, ever done that before! The day before he'd passed god knows how many dogs without any rude behaviour whatsoever. Nor was he rude with any of hte other dogs he met that day!


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## cinnamontoast (Oct 24, 2010)

tabulahrasa said:


> By default though the only dogs that approach reactive dogs are ones that have no social skills...a dog with any sort of social skills looks at a stressed dog and behaves accordingly.
> 
> So it's never well behaved dogs that come over.


I cross the road, in fact they're rarely road walked, although we did hours and hours when they were younger for loose leash practice and socialising.

You're totally right about the lack of social skills: yesterday, I went to the annexe of the park to avoid a young lad who kept approaching with his lurcher. He's seen me before, I put Zak on the lead and walk away, he ruddy follows! I told him Zak isn't good with other dogs! So I'm avoiding this lurcher, who's mostly greyhound and fast when a Weimaraner comes up to me, I'm strangling poor Zak because he's trying to kill the dog, I'm keeping myself to myself. Bear flies at the Weimaraner and recalls immediately I tell him, the weimie's owner has zero recall and isn't bothered. It goes over to Brig and attacks him.  Brig is no slouch when it comes to defending himself, although he won't start an attack. If I see him again, I'll leave or ask him to recall before his nasty dog goes for mine! (I'm aware of the irony in that Bear had a go, but his didn't stop til it was forcibly hauled away )

Zak is always trained when out, it's my avoidance technique. Generally, he ignores other dogs if searching for the dummy/ball. He will stay in a sit or down til sent on, unless another dog is in his face. Makes me so cross that some people don't teach a strong recall.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

I think I'm on a similar journey with this, to the one I took regarding cats. Having previously had an outdoor cat, I now have indoor only. At present, for a variety of reasons (the main ones being age and deafness) my standard poodles are always on a lead. However I expected that my next dog (which I hope will be a rescue staffy) would go off-lead once trained. Maybe, though, it's easier to avoid conflict by keeping my dog on a lead at all times..... (Of course, the dressed BSL is on my mind too, as anyone could claim they were scared by an off-lead dog...)


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

That would be the DREADED BSL!


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

I have read this thread with great interest. 
Logan is an amazingly friendly animal. He is also a massive twit. He has yet to learn that all dogs are not playmates to be run at. Because he simply will NOT avoid another dog and isn't always as well mannered about his overtly friendly approach as I'd like him to be, the second we see another dog near us on lead or off, he is called back and put on a lead and does sits and downs etc for treats. IF the owner of an off lead dog is happy for them to play, off he goes. 
Yet again today, we had two off lead dogs charge up to us. Nothing unusual about this sadly. 
What was unusual was that neither time was there an owner present. The first time we were in the woods. This dog appeared from nowhere and was VERY dominant but not outright aggressive. It followed us around for about 10 mins at which point I decided it was lost. Mr Katalyst stayed with the 'lost' dog which was an elderly looking retriever mix thing and I dragged Logan off to search for an owner. We eventually found him with a second off lead dog who was very well manner indeed. I asked him if he had lost a dog and he just looked at me and pointed to his pooch. Fair play, not his then. There is no one else in the woods so I head back to the other half with a plan to put logan on the flexi lead I keep as an emergency in my bag and use his usual lead on the stray and get it to the vets to be microchip scanned etc. 
Just then the bloke with the second off lead dog yells towards us "she isnt a stray mate, she just loves exploring" and laughs. Clearly he has had our response before. The dog was out of his sight for a good 20 minutes. 

The second dog was a lovely friendly bull dog who approached us in the park with no owner. He was great with my puppy so I left them to it with the OH whilst I went looking for an owner for the second time in an hour. A lady came literally running up to me in tears because her dog was let out of the garden by her kids. Genuine accident it seemed. She was mortified and really appologetic unlike the first owner. 

So no matter how hard I try to avoid unnessesary interaction, it seems it will always happen -_-

It pains me slightly because whilst my dog is very friendly with other dogs, he is also a pain in the arse and ignores 'go away' vibes so is controlled. 
If I can be bothered to control my idiot puppy, why can't other people extend the same courtesy?


Incidentally... any tips on teaching better manners to a 4 month old lurcher will be gratefully recieved!


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

The other day Duchess and I were approaching a woman and she was standing still holding her dog very tightly on its leads. I took hold of Duch by her collar as she was off lead and we walked calmly past. "Thanks" she said as we did so, "she is fine with other dogs but you never know". Quite right I thought, neither of us know the others dog.

Its just basic manners and common sense as far as I am concerned. A dog on a lead can't "flight" and if its a nervous type that leaves the possibility of "fight" and since its not possible to know how a strangers dog will behave, contact is best avoided in my opinion. I expect Duchess to pass by with no fuss and no noise. I like an easy life!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Haven't finished reading all the replies yet as having a bad night with my skin and so getting tired, so here's my two pen'th...

So many of you have mentioned on lead laws in pavements/near roads etc, but according to my local council, the only places dogs must be on lead here is in cemeteries, and one particular park near the coast.

Now of course, my 2 are on lead near roads but if you think it's frustrating that people are flouting the law, imagine not even having the law on your side? Only yesterday I saw 2 dogs off lead near a busy road, apparently completely unattended (there was a couple who were in the vicinity, but whether or not the dogs belonged to them was completely unclear) and basically allowed to do as they pleased. 

Now, I didn't have The Mutts with me at the time, but what was worse, was that I was driving (waiting at a junction to be precise) and these dogs, who obviously knew other, were frolicking about completely oblivious to the cars going past them at 30mph (or thereabouts ) just feet away from them, while the owners - if they WERE their owners - prepared to cross the road.

I'm fairly lucky in that when I'm out with The Mutts locally, getting to the local walk is often fairly quiet in terms of loose dogs (annoying Westie barking her head off at us in her garden, notwithstanding) and the only one we do see fairly regularly now leashes his dog up when he sees us, after an encounter where he said, irritably (the dog in question being a staffy) that his dog was friendly as I put Max behind me, and I, just as irritably, pointed out that mine wasn't (it wasn't the first encounter).

I'm also lucky in the main that when I do encounter off lead dogs, mostly their owner notices me leading the dogs up (if they're off lead) and body blocking and generally doing the same, or have contingency plans in place and strategies for changing direction, so such encounters are rare...

However, while I agree that it's my responsibility to keep my dogs under control and not allow either of them to get into a position where they have to deal with a strange dog approaching as they see fit, and accept that - to a certain extent - it's my responsibility to prevent my dog from escalating, I fail to see how I'm supposed to protect them from dogs that appear from out of nowhere, as happened recently, while body blocking from the one I can see in front of me? Luckily it was a puppy and when both of mine told it to sod off (with me trying to get between it and The Mutts, while it's own owner sauntered towards us from half the field away, not making any attempt to catch up to u, or recall his dog, of course) it got the message and sprinted back to it's owner while I made good the sudden reprieve and led The Mutts away.

Now, I admit I failed to protect my dogs then, but not possessing eyes in the back of my head, and concentrating on the dog in front of me, for a moment, the dogs had to deal with the puppy themselves until the first dog buggered off. I'd use walls or fences so that other dogs can't take it's by surprise, but that just makes Max worse, so what could I do? 

I accept that, given the age of the puppy, it could be starting adolescence, but the owner is as much, if not more to blame than I am for that encounter because he had no control over his dog at all and was half the field away by the time his puppy ran off back to him, while mine were on lead and I was trying my best to manage my 2, plus a puppy who, until being told off by mine, ran rings round us.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_"Thanks" she said as we did so, "she is fine with other dogs *but you never know*"._
This is what's been in my mind as this thread has evolved. The best any owner can claim is that their dog has been fine so far.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Katalyst said:


> Incidentally... any tips on teaching better manners to a 4 month old lurcher will be gratefully recieved!


Some things can only be taught by another dog.  I'm not suggesting going out and getting another one - but knowing the signs of a dog telling Logan to bugger off/leave me alone/I don't want to play and "backing up" the dog's sod off signs by recalling him, or putting him on a lead, controlling the dogs he can greet and praising for appropriate greeting - they are a few things you can do. But if Logan is playing with another, well-rounded (trying to think of another word than socialised) dog, and the other dog decides he's gone a bit too far and corrects him, depending on the circumstances, you may be best just letting them get on with it, so long as things don't get too heated.

Learning to read canine BL yourself is the best way of helping him to learn manners, and accepting a dog telling yours off if he does overstep the mark.

However, that doesn't giving you a free pass to let any dog tell him off.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

We walked down a popular path today. I put my boy onlead every time we saw a dog as he's been through a reactive phase recently and I didn't want to take any chances. We met about 8 other people with dogs. All their dogs approached our onlead dog. Didn't bother me as my dog greeted all of them happily and I'm happy for him to have the socialisation. The one who he got a bit overwhelmed by (just backing away) was a bouncy adolescent lab and the owner came and put it onlead and apologised. It really is the norm here. If my dog hadn't been through a slightly more unpredictable stage recently (which thankfully he seems to be over and back to polite greetings) I would have left him offlead and let him greet freely unless the other owner recalled theirs.

People generally seem nice and I imagine if you called out that your dog was reactive and asked them to recall theirs they would try.............don't know if they'd all be successful though!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

_[QUOTE="LinznMilly, post: 1064344227, member: 1281247"*]Some things can only be taught by another dog*.  I'm not suggesting going out and getting another one - but knowing the signs of a dog telling Logan to bugger off/leave me alone/I don't want to play and "backing up" the dog's sod off signs by recalling him, or putting him on a lead, controlling the dogs he can greet and praising for appropriate greeting - they are a few things you can do. But if Logan is playing with another, well-rounded (trying to think of another word than socialised) dog, and the other dog decides he's gone a bit too far and corrects him, depending on the circumstances, you may be best just letting them get on with it, so long as things don't get too heated.

Learning to read canine BL yourself is the best way of helping him to learn manners, and accepting a dog telling yours off if he does overstep the mark.

However, that doesn't giving you a free pass to let any dog tell him off.[/QUOTE]_

True, some dogs we meet are great, a man with an old Lab basically called us over for this reason! He could see I shortened Muttly's lead and was giving a wide berth, so he said "does he wanna come and meet her, she's great with young uns?" so me knowing that Muttly's problem isn't aggression, its over-excitement, did. Every time he got too much or in her face, she would let out a growl and Muttly backed off. This happened a fair few times, before he got the picture. It was great, another step to teaching him what is and isn't acceptable.

Some dogs won't tell him off though, yesterday we ended up walking with another Spaniel, the person I was walking with knew and Muttly did get in his face, I say 'Gently' and if he isn't, he gets pulled away. The dog also didn't tell Muttly, but told his owner lol, he stood barking at his owner instead.
After a few times, Muttly calmed it down and they were fine together.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> Some things can only be taught by another dog.  I'm not suggesting going out and getting another one - but knowing the signs of a dog telling Logan to bugger off/leave me alone/I don't want to play and "backing up" the dog's sod off signs by recalling him, or putting him on a lead, controlling the dogs he can greet and praising for appropriate greeting - they are a few things you can do. But if Logan is playing with another, well-rounded (trying to think of another word than socialised) dog, and the other dog decides he's gone a bit too far and corrects him, depending on the circumstances, you may be best just letting them get on with it, so long as things don't get too heated.
> 
> Learning to read canine BL yourself is the best way of helping him to learn manners, and accepting a dog telling yours off if he does overstep the mark.
> 
> However, that doesn't giving you a free pass to let any dog tell him off.


This is exacty what I am doing so thank you, your reply has settled my mind. I think for the most part, it is just a matter of helping him along the path to maturity lol.
Whilst I am new to owning dogs, I am not new to animal (or dog) behaviour at all so reading body language isn't something I find hard. Unfortunately, a lot of other dog walkers seems rather oblivious and I think in reality, this is the biggest issue highlighted in this thread along side lack of training.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Graham is absolutely fine with other dogs, and if anything at his age I welcome other dogs to give him good experiences. If he's off lead, and I see either an on-lead dog or someone putting their dog on lead then I will put him on lead. Only if they confirm their dog is ok with other dogs, I will let him greet them and possibly play off lead together. The same goes for, if someone comes with an offlead dog and does not attempt to call them back, neither will I.
I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden.
It may not make much sense in the way i'm writing it, but I respect that some people may have dog aggressive dogs for reasons such as being attacked or having a bad experience which is a very valid reason.
But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs.


What makes you think that's the main cause of most dog aggression?

I'm curious because IME it's exactly the other way round, people only avoid other dogs if they have a reason to. Yet I've had several people (who don't know me or my dog btw) accuse me of causing his issues by not letting him mix with other dogs...he did mix with other dogs plenty, until he started trying to attack them.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> Graham is absolutely fine with other dogs, and if anything at his age I welcome other dogs to give him good experiences. If he's off lead, and I see either an on-lead dog or someone putting their dog on lead then I will put him on lead. Only if they confirm their dog is ok with other dogs, I will let him greet them and possibly play off lead together. The same goes for, if someone comes with an offlead dog and does not attempt to call them back, neither will I.
> I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden.
> It may not make much sense in the way i'm writing it, but I respect that some people may have dog aggressive dogs for reasons such as being attacked or having a bad experience which is a very valid reason.
> But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs.


Not all dogs are forbidden for us. Just strange dogs that I don't know. Personally, I don't allow Phoebe to approach any dog without my permission as I don't trust another owner to look out for the welfare of my pup.. that's my job. It may seem over the top to some people but I'd rather teach her that way, than "hope for the best"

That doesn't mean she doesn't get to play with other dogs. She plays with plenty of dogs but it's on mine and the other owners terms and never when the dogs are on leads.

As for her not having fun on walks.. That's what I am there for! She has more than enough fun with us and we don't need another dog to entertain her.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> Graham is absolutely fine with other dogs, and if anything at his age I welcome other dogs to give him good experiences. If he's off lead, and I see either an on-lead dog or someone putting their dog on lead then I will put him on lead. Only if they confirm their dog is ok with other dogs, I will let him greet them and possibly play off lead together. The same goes for, if someone comes with an offlead dog and does not attempt to call them back, neither will I.
> I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest *what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden*.
> It may not make much sense in the way i'm writing it, but I respect that some people may have dog aggressive dogs for reasons such as being attacked or having a bad experience which is a very valid reason.
> *But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs*.


I'm afraid i'm going to be blunt and say thats poppycock. Plenty of fun can be had when the dog is engaging with it's owner. To think that dogs can only have fun when mixing with other dogs is a big part of the reason there are so many nuisance dogs out there ("he/she only wants to play" etc) and very short sighted. Believe it or not, not every dog is dog orientated, there are plenty that are human orientated, I own 2 of them.

Lots of dogs are dog aggressive because they've had a bad experience, and it's based on fear, they want to get rid of the other dog before it does them any harm. One of my own dogs is very defensive and will not tolerate other dogs sniffing him, and thats due to him having lots of trouble when he was younger with dogs trying to mount him. He soon came to the conclusion if he growled, barked and lunged before they had the chance to get near him, the other dog usually backed off.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

tabulahrasa said:


> What makes you think that's the main cause of most dog aggression?
> 
> I'm curious because IME it's exactly the other way round, people only avoid other dogs if they have a reason to. Yet I've had several people (who don't know me or my dog btw) accuse me of causing his issues by not letting him mix with other dogs...he did mix with other dogs plenty, until he started trying to attack them.


I can only assume that like a child, the more social skills they gain the more likely they are going to accept other dogs and situations. If your child showed signs of anxiety, or even kicked/bit another child as they sometimes do..you would not then avoid all other children would you?

I do not and have never had a dog reactive dog so I am unable to understand from someone who does' point of view. I'd personally wonder why my dog who was fine with other dogs then suddenly went to trying to attack them (of course unless he had a bad experience which you have not mentioned).


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Nettles said:


> Not all dogs are forbidden for us. Just strange dogs that I don't know. Personally, I don't allow Phoebe to approach any dog without my permission as I don't trust another owner to look out for the welfare of my pup.. that's my job. It may seem over the top to some people but I'd rather teach her that way, than "hope for the best"
> 
> That doesn't mean she doesn't get to play with other dogs. She plays with plenty of dogs but it's on mine and the other owners terms and never when the dogs are on leads.
> 
> As for her not having fun on walks.. That's what I am there for! She has more than enough fun with us and we don't need another dog to entertain her.


If I have any doubt in my mind that a dog could be a threat to mine in it's mannerisms, whether it be on lead or off lead I will not let him interact with it don't get me wrong. But I am not going to put him on a lead and shield him away from every single dog in the fear that something will happen..which some people do.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

The "Dogs must play with other dogs thing is pants" Muttly and I have fun on our own. 
Just yesterday, he play bowed to me to chase him, he then hid from me, so I could find him in the long grass, he threw a plastic bottle at my feet and waited for me to kick it, in fact even when we are with my parents dogs, he will still just as often choose to play with a human as he will their 2 dogs.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> I can only assume that like a child, the more social skills they gain the more likely they are going to accept other dogs and situations. If your child showed signs of anxiety, or even kicked/bit another child as they sometimes do..you would not then avoid all other children would you?
> 
> I do not and have never had a dog reactive dog so I am unable to understand from someone who does' point of view. I'd personally wonder why my dog who was fine with other dogs then suddenly went to trying to attack them (of course unless he had a bad experience which you have not mentioned).


What lots of people interpret as aggression is actually expressed by dogs with perfectly good social skills. All 3 of my dogs have good social skills - they dont rush up to other dogs, they arc politely, they move away if the dog is giving bad vibes, take a telling off with good grace and they are happy to deal with dogs who have equally good social skills. What one of mine doesnt tolerate is another dog staring, sniffing him excessively, boisterous dogs, 'cocky' dogs or dogs that interrupt us when we are engaging in play or training. He will growl a warning and if that doesnt do the trick he will escalate quickly to lunging and barking, even chasing a dog away. Many people could construe that as aggression when in actual fact is a good mannered dog telling a bad mannered one to get lost.

So, since it's quite rare to meet a dog who is calm, polite and only comes over when the signals are inviting, and since I do not want my dog practising negative reactions, we steer clear of all unknown dogs.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> I can only assume that like a child, the more social skills they gain the more likely they are going to accept other dogs and situations. If your child showed signs of anxiety, or even kicked/bit another child as they sometimes do..you would not then avoid all other children would you?
> 
> I do not and have never had a dog reactive dog so I am unable to understand from someone who does' point of view. I'd personally wonder why my dog who was fine with other dogs then suddenly went to trying to attack them (of course unless he had a bad experience which you have not mentioned).


Oh I know exactly why he's reactive, I mention it a lot, I just hadn't on this thread, lol.

He has various medical issues including elbow dysplasia and spinal pain and he's been attacked more than once.

He's seen a behaviourist and has now moved on to a behavioural and pain specialist.

I've yet to meet an owner of a reactive dog who started off avoiding dogs though, they all say their dogs became reactive and then they had to start avoiding dogs. Or they got them as adults already reactive and then had to avoid dogs.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> Graham is absolutely fine with other dogs, and if anything at his age I welcome other dogs to give him good experiences. If he's off lead, and I see either an on-lead dog or someone putting their dog on lead then I will put him on lead. Only if they confirm their dog is ok with other dogs, I will let him greet them and possibly play off lead together. The same goes for, if someone comes with an offlead dog and does not attempt to call them back, neither will I.
> I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden.
> It may not make much sense in the way i'm writing it, but I respect that some people may have dog aggressive dogs for reasons such as being attacked or having a bad experience which is a very valid reason.
> But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs.


Well, I don't agree with this.

How do you know why most dog aggressive dogs are the way they are because their owners have avoided other dogs?

What makes you think the only way a dog can have fun is if it socialises with other dogs?

My JR does not want to socialise with others. She completely ignores other dogs and if they barge into her space, she will warn them away. She's focused on me when we're out, not other dogs, and that suits me fine. She has lots of fun, by the way.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I tend to avoid of dogs since I got my yorkie. She hates rude dogs getting in her face and will give them a warning. Due to her size though if the other dog reacted badly they could easily kill or injure her and so it is safer to avoid. My other dog is small, but perfectly fine both on lead and off lead with dogs approaching. Mine rarely play together, but love playing with me. The focus they have as a result means that my oldest dog has only blown a recall 3 times in 5 years. My yorkie has then followed him, but has never left me other than that.

I don't make a fuss or say anything if a dog approaches and I've only picked my yorkie up a couple of times. I appreciate it if they say sorry when they are on lead, but carry on otherwise.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs.


Because people don't keep dogs like my thug of a Lab under control. They allow them to go through life "socialising" with every dog they meet and leaving behind them a wake of dogs who have been stressed, frightened, hurt etc by them. And I find Labs are one of the worst breeds for this I'm afraid. They're not overtly aggressive, they're simply obnoxious, over enthusiastic and rude. Which their owners don't see as a problem when in reality it is a huge problem. Most dogs I know who have issues with other dogs haven't been made that way by attacks, they've been made that way by this sort of dog. The "friendly" thug. And it makes socialising your own dog properly very difficult. You can do it all right and have one bad experience at the wrong time that creates a massive problem.

Thankfully Spen generally has manners, adolescent males are the problem with him and usually only ones he already knows. And I don't know anyone whose dog has become aggressive because they've avoided other dogs, generally people start avoiding other dogs when their dog becomes aggressive.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If I'm walking with my dog on a lead then I want it walking calmly to heel. Playtime is something different. It's nothing to do with him being aggressive, it's to do with him behaving as I want and appropriately for the situation. This assumption that if we don't let our dogs do as they choose then it's automatically because they're aggressive is beyond annoying. When young mine was 'enthusiastic' but never aggressive.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Like one or two others on this thread I have an over friendly social butterfly of a dog. Her saving grace is that she does greet quietly and politely, but hopes that the dog will be up for a play. She is also easy to recall and continue with our walk, so not a huge problem and I'm working on her keenness to get a dog to play with her.
I follow the usual unwritten rules of, if the approaching dog is on a lead, then she goes on to hers
If I see that the dog is small, old or a bit tottery, on the lead she goes.
I also put her on the lead if I see young children. She has got to a point now of ignoring passerbys, but children can be so unpredictable and may panic or throw themselves onto her. So that's a safety issue as far as I'm concerned.
It seems to work well. Where we live is very quiet and don't often see many other dog walkers about and I usually know them. At Suffolk, where we spend a lot of time, again is fairly quiet apart from the holiday season.
I hope she isn't being a nuisance to other people and their dogs.
What was very interesting though, is when we were walking on the huge sandy beach at Bamburgh, Northumberland during the autumn. There were loads of people and dogs, like us, enjoying the sunshine on this lovely sandy beach. Isla's day was made, all these dogs, wonderful. However, after a while, she began to lose interest. There were so many dogs that they no longer were a novelty and she she was more keen to go sniffing, play with her ball or go into the sea. Interesting to see.

Going off piste slightly from the thread. Someone mentioned earlier that they were frightened of dogs. That must be very difficult at times as there are dogs everywhere these days. Which takes me to what must be one of my proudest moments with Isla.
We had some workman in recently to do a small job in then house. Man A came in and I checked he was ok with dogs. Fine he said, love them and proceeded to tell me about his springer spaniel. Showed him job, and he went off to get his tools and his workmate, mentioning that he was his twin brother (boy, were they alike), so I thought he was ok with dogs too, his brother didn't say anything. Man B came in via the garden gate and Isla trotted out to greet him. Within a few minutes he was playing with her, throwing a ball, making a fuss of her. Ten minutes later he informs me that he is terrified of dogs, but loved Isla to bits. He just couldn't get over how nice and friendly she was and was thrilled that he could stroke and play with her. I was so chuffed with her.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Had a classic this afternoon out on the moors, hardly anyone about but lots of sheep so all 3 of my dogs on lead. Coming down towards the car park a lady was coming up with two dogs off lead and let them come bouncing up to mine. Rottie and GSP lunged at the dogs so she called out they only want to play. How does she think my dogs are going to play with hers when they are all attached to walking belts and my OH was in the process of taking photos of a buzzard at the time anyway. She looked a bit worried when she realised mine were not up for a one sided game and sent them on past us asking if my dogs are not friendly as hers are and as hers are fine with sheep they don't need to be on a lead. We were too dumb struck to bother with a reply.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Had a classic this afternoon out on the moors, hardly anyone about but lots of sheep so all 3 of my dogs on lead. Coming down towards the car park a lady was coming up with two dogs off lead and let them come bouncing up to mine. Rottie and GSP lunged at the dogs so she called out they only want to play. How does she think my dogs are going to play with hers when they are all attached to walking belts and my OH was in the process of taking photos of a buzzard at the time anyway. She looked a bit worried when she realised mine were not up for a one sided game and sent them on past us asking if my dogs are not friendly as hers are and as hers are fine with sheep they don't need to be on a lead. We were too dumb struck to bother with a reply.


There really are no words!....


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> If I have any doubt in my mind that a dog could be a threat to mine in it's mannerisms


But this is why I put her on a lead when I see another dog and "attempt" to get her to sit calmly, stand behind me or touch her nose to my hand (we're still training)
I can't assess the other dogs mannerisms in the few split seconds it can take for it to come charging towards us and I won't assume the other owner will only allow their dog to approach because it's friendly.
If I have my dog on a lead and under control, I only have to deal with the strange dog.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> It may not make much sense in the way i'm writing it, but I respect that some people may have dog *aggressive* dogs for reasons such as being attacked or having a bad experience which is a very valid reason.
> *But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs*.


What about the dogs who are rescues and never had the chance to socialise? Whose owners are working so dam hard to do the best they can but their training is constantly set back by inconsiderate owners and dogs who have no awareness whatsoever? Dogs can be reactive (I detest the word aggressive) for many many reasons. I know this from working with two very good behaviourists who are exceptionally well qualified.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Had a classic this afternoon out on the moors, hardly anyone about but lots of sheep so all 3 of my dogs on lead. Coming down towards the car park a lady was coming up with two dogs off lead and let them come bouncing up to mine. Rottie and GSP lunged at the dogs so she called out they only want to play. How does she think my dogs are going to play with hers when they are all attached to walking belts and my OH was in the process of taking photos of a buzzard at the time anyway. She looked a bit worried when she realised mine were not up for a one sided game and sent them on past us asking if my dogs are not friendly as hers are and as hers are fine with sheep they don't need to be on a lead. We were too dumb struck to bother with a reply.


I'm sure the sheep can tell they're fine with sheep...:Banghead


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

MollySmith said:


> What about the dogs who are rescues and never had the chance to socialise? Whose owners are working so dam hard to do the best they can but their training is constantly set back by inconsiderate owners and dogs who have no awareness whatsoever? Dogs can be reactive (I detest the word aggressive) for many many reasons. I know this from working with two very good behaviourists who are exceptionally well qualified.


And what about the elderly, infirm or recovering from surgery dogs who aren't aggressive or whatever word you want to use and who were well socialised but are physically unable to handle the way most dogs interact because of age or ill health? It's not just those with behavioural problems that need a bit of consideration.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Jovi is lead reactive, in an ideal world he wouldn't have a lead on so he could get away from any dog he chooses, which is a lot of dogs.

However if I choose not to put a lead on him, then his need to get away would break his recall, he would bolt as far as possible which means anything could happen for example he could run into a road and cause an accident.

I would never call Jovi aggressive, however due to being on the lead and during the 12 years I have owned him this is what hes been called by many.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Well, I don't agree with this.
> 
> How do you know why most dog aggressive dogs are the way they are because their owners have avoided other dogs?
> 
> ...


Dogs in the general sense are sociable animals and all sociable creatures like to mix with their own kind. Their are dogs who don't like other dogs and want nothing to do with them of course because like people, there are some exceptions to the rule. But being a sociable creature naturally means that most dogs actually want to interact with their own kind from time to time. If they don't, either because they are scared or because their owner refuses to allow interaction of any kind then that is unfortunate in my opinion.

Give me a well balanced well trained obedient sociable dog that can meet and greet other dogs with a proper cautioned nuanced approach or simply walk by and ignore them when told too, any day. Its much more relaxing experience and I think much nicer for them. My dog, a big German Shepherd Bitch simply loves running around the local playing field with all sorts of dogs of all shapes and sizes. She is gentle and respectful, a quality she lacked when I first adopted her and she plays with jack russels sized dogs or other GSD sized dogs perfectly happily. Its always a pleasure to see dogs enjoying each others company.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> And what about the elderly, infirm or recovering from surgery dogs who aren't aggressive or whatever word you want to use and who were well socialised but are physically unable to handle the way most dogs interact because of age or ill health? It's not just those with behavioural problems that need a bit of consideration.


Indeed like my gran who in her 80s had a dog who wasn't keen on other dogs rushing up to her after surgery. Fortunately she would always sit nicely and wait (the dog and sometimes grannie).


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Brannybear said:


> I can only assume that like a child, the more social skills they gain the more likely they are going to accept other dogs and situations. If your child showed signs of anxiety, or even kicked/bit another child as they sometimes do..you would not then avoid all other children would you?
> 
> I do not and have never had a dog reactive dog so I am unable to understand from someone who does' point of view. I'd personally wonder why my dog who was fine with other dogs then suddenly went to trying to attack them (of course unless he had a bad experience which you have not mentioned).


Your statements are typical of those who have no experience of a dog reactive dog. For the record, I would not consider my girl "dog reactive", she just does not want to interact with strange dogs so lets them know accordingly.

I do not let my dogs meet and greet unknown dogs on walks, I'm not sure why you assume this means they are denied all canine interaction? All of my dogs have "friends" they see at training, or out on walks together, this is where I allow them to socialise. When they are out with me alone, they come to me for their fun. They view me as far more valuable than that random dog way over there and that's the way I like it.

I say time and time again, when you walk down to street to the shops, do you say hi to every person you see? Do you you hug them, high five them, or do you just carry on your way, unless you see an acquaintance? So why do we expect our dogs to want to greet every dog they meet? They have dogs they like, dogs they don't like, dogs they are indifferent to, and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## marasmum (Jun 12, 2013)

Y'see, for me its not necessarily the off lead dogs. I can block, shoo, distract or simply let Mara clear off as where I live, a dog on a close lead is on a lead for a reason and Mara will avoid/wait and go on the lead, A dog off-lead...now then, she will wait to see if, as is normally the case in a small town, the woofler is a friend or acquaintance and if the dog has manners and if not will get ignored, woofed at or played with as befits her mood or inclination. This is, of course, generally speaking and we are NOT perfect and she has, on occasion, read doggy language incorrectly, as have I and I have apologised profusely.

However, mine (and I suspect, Mara's) pet hate....the Flexi/long lead. The worse of all worlds for lazy owners, no recall, ok, get a flexi. So, as they release the sex mad/rude/untrained animal at the end of a sharp lead that wraps around mine or her legs (as happened today as an enthusiastic male, on a flexi, was intent on humping Mara and got soooo tangled she couldn't escape and the idiot owner was ineffectually pulling the flexi) I had to untangle a stressed Mara and a hyped up entire male terrier while the owner just stood staying 'ooooooh stop it' and tugging at the Flexi. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Caveat. Flexi's/Long leads are great in certain circumstances, I used a long lead in the early days with Mara to build confidence etc and I still use it on the high fells where the sheepys roam, BUT if I had a £1 for every time I hear 'he/she is on a flexi/long lead coz they won't come back' I would be a gazillionaire.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Cassyj said:


> I'm afraid of dogs I've been biten twice and they where not aggressive dogs. I'm better when it's dogs I know and have watched grow up from a pup and I hate going for a walk and dog comes running up I start to feel the panic raising and I shout to the owner I'm afraid of dogs they always respond with don't worry he's friendly so repeat I'm afraid of dogs after a couple of mins they finally call their dog back.
> I have every right to walk the back ways without being ran up to and I hate it when I tell them I'm afraid of dogs and they still think it's ok


I know exactly how you feel. I might have 2 dogs now, but I haven't always had them and was terrified of dogs throughout my teens. Even walking up the street was a living nightmare and a lot of people don't understand how frightening, and how disabling it can be to be afraid of something that is literally everywhere! I was OK... Ish if the were on a lead, but even then, unless it was a chain type of lead (NOT a choke chain, I'm talking a regular lead attaches in the regular way to a collar or harness) but even then, at my worst, I'd imagine the lead snapping and a crazed devil dog monster coming to attack me and me alone, so I understand entirely how you feel.

It was my eldest dog that "cured" me of my phobia.

Similarly, you don't have to be afraid of dogs to not want them to approach you, whether or not you have dogs yourself. I remember once, walking between one service user's house and the next (I didn't drive at the time) and cut through the park when a woman just allowed her 3 Springers to run up to me and dance around me, no attempt to recall them, just an abrupt "For God's sake! They won't hurt you"... I didn't think for a second that they would, because I can read canine BL and k ow they're friendly, but I'm on my way to work and have the right to do so without having dogs running rings around me, so kindly recall and control your dogs, please...

I'm sure she muttered something about me being a miserable bint under her breath, but I couldn't care less.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

tabulahrasa said:


> Oh I know exactly why he's reactive, I mention it a lot, I just hadn't on this thread, lol.
> 
> He has various medical issues including elbow dysplasia and spinal pain and he's been attacked more than once.
> 
> ...


Yup, this happened to us. Muttly was terribly reactive when I got him. The first day we got him home, I took him out for a walk on the lead obviously and he went mental at every moving thing!
A year later and he is much better, but reactivity takes a long time, if ever, to get out of them doesn't it. 
It's also knowing the reason, to which I can only guess from what I do know of his past. He is now reactive due to ever excitement, it seems. He is just totally high on life! and everyone in it! Which I think is due to not experiencing anything for the first 9 months of his life.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Its always a pleasure to see dogs enjoying each others company._
I agree with you but I get no pleasure whatsoever in seeing dogs enjoying each others company when it's uncontrolled mayhem. A great deal of it is perception - the owner thinks their uncontrolled dog is just saying hi to every dog and human in the park while one or more of those humans feel absolutely terrorised. I've seen a couple of dogs playing together be joined by more and more until a large group are careering wildly around a park while their owners are chatting oblivious to the chaos they're causing. The worst time is just after 9am - kids to school, dog to the park and mind in neutral. These owners have effectively bullied everyone else out of using a public space.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Our loose lead training in the park was interrupted last night by a rude springer spaniel who's only intent was to nip at Phoebes back end.
We changed direction when I noticed it running riot but it soon caught up with us in no time. By then, the owner was quite a distance back and made no effort to recall his dog.
My OH tried to chase it off while It danced circles round us, growling and nipping at Phoebe who lay on her back submissively and yelping.

The owner didn't seem to mind that his rude dog had ran off, interrupted a training session, was trying to nip the back end of an on lead, obviously scared pup or was growling at two strangers. He didn't even seem to mind that my OH was shouting at it, swinging his leg towards it or stomping his feet to keep it away from Phoebe.
I almost bit my tongue off trying not to cause a screaming match in the park after the last time I asked a woman to recall her yorkie who was about to be squashed by Phoebes big clumsy paws. Thankfully the dog ran on ahead when the owner caught up and off it went to terrorise a man with two golden retrievers on leads instead.
No apology, no acknowledgement. No concern that now another owner was trying to kick it away from his dogs. It's obviously a regular occurrence for him and his dog.

One lesson came out of it though. It confirms why I will NEVER trust another owner to control their dog and why I'm so adamant that Phoebe is not allowed to approach another dog without my permission.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> If your child showed signs of anxiety, or even kicked/bit another child as they sometimes do..you would not then avoid all other children would you?


If my child ran up to every other child it seen, jumped on their back, ran about in their face, knocked them over and sniffed their arse then yes, I would avoid taking my child there until they were taught some manners or hold their hand so they couldn't behave like that.
Likewise, if my child was afraid of other children who behaved like that, then I would avoid places where parents allow their children to behave in that way. I certainly wouldn't tell my child to suck it up and put up with bad manners because they have to socialise.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

@Brannybear, your comments about DA dogs being the way they are because owners have avoided other dogs isn't true, as others have pointed out to you. I've avoided this thread up to now because I generally don't share the same views regarding off lead dogs/owners, but did want to pick up on that comment. I socialised Missy well with everything - attending puppy parties at the local vet surgery, then on to puppy training classes and daily walks with local dog walkers. I did everything right in terms of what is suggested for new puppy owners. However at around a year old another dog snapped at Missy to warn her away/calm down...I can't remember the exact scenario now. But Missy flew at the dog! Totally out of the blue to my inexperienced mind at the time and she was on top of the other dog, lots of noise and the other dog's owner young toddler was knocked over in the madness  She didn't cause any harm, neither did the other dog, but it was a real shock. From that day onwards she's been DA. Just like that. I was pretty young at the time and didn't really know where to turn so working with a behaviourist and trainer came some years later and we made minor improvements, but she really is a case of general management really.

However, I do understand what you're saying to some degree because I do feel there is a very fine line in terms of just the right amount of socialisation to have a well adjusted adult. All these people who claim their dogs never interact with others is all well and good but without ANY interactions I fail to see how skilled their dogs are in reading dog body language and the like. And of course if your dog isn't interacting you never have to know/see your dog struggle to communicate.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> However, I do understand what you're saying to some degree because I do feel there is a very fine line in terms of just the right amount of socialisation to have a well adjusted adult. All these people who claim their dogs never interact with others is all well and good but without ANY interactions I fail to see how skilled their dogs are in reading dog body language and the like. And of course if your dog isn't interacting you never have to know/see your dog struggle to communicate.


I don't think anyone has said their dog never interacts with others (apart from those with aggression issues that is). A lot don't allow their dogs to interact with dogs they don't know though. Which is all well and good if you have a large circle of dog owning friends/colleagues but not much use if you're like me and don't really know anyone and their dogs. I can certainly see the benefits in it though, I'd much rather my dog interact with known dogs of stable temperament, particularly during the critical periods, than random dogs who may or may not behave appropriately.

I don't mind Spen interacting with other dogs but I tend to keep interactions with random dogs very short to avoid problems. Once we know a dog a bit better he may want to play which I'm happy to allow if the other dog wants it but on the first few meetings it tends to be sniff and move on and be about your business.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I feel some dogs get more badly affected by a one off incident then others.

My last GR was socialised well and seemed fine. She enjoyed games of chase with other dogs with her being the one that was being chased, but on one occasion she met up with a young lurcher and they began a chase game, but the lurcher became over excited and belted after her growling like mad. My dog became frightened and couldn't get away as she couldn't outrun the lurcher. After that incident she changed and regarded every dog she saw as a potential enemy and behaved accordingly. Any other incidents just confirm what she thought in the first place.

Isla is far more confident and seems to cope better. She has had a lurcher chase her in a similar way, but stopped dead defusing the chase mechanism, it doesn't seem to worry her and she takes it as a lesson learned. Any other incidents are just taken as another lesson to be more choosy who she plays with.

Dog personalities vary, like humans, and something that will be brushed off by one will be taken to heart by another.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_I don't think anyone has said their dog never interacts with others_
I too don't understand this all or nothing attitude. There's a huge difference between properly conducted social interaction and allowing a dog to bother everyone in a public place.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I don't think anyone has said their dog never interacts with others (apart from those with aggression issues that is). A lot don't allow their dogs to interact with dogs they don't know though. Which is all well and good if you have a large circle of dog owning friends/colleagues but not much use if you're like me and don't really know anyone and their dogs. I can certainly see the benefits in it though, I'd much rather my dog interact with known dogs of stable temperament, particularly during the critical periods, than random dogs who may or may not behave appropriately.
> 
> I don't mind Spen interacting with other dogs but I tend to keep interactions with random dogs very short to avoid problems. Once we know a dog a bit better he may want to play which I'm happy to allow if the other dog wants it but on the first few meetings it tends to be sniff and move on and be about your business.


Even Brock with his issues does get to interact with dogs, it's just that it's a very select few.

There a couple of people who I meet often who have kept their dogs out of his threshold distance and are chatty so he's gradually worked up to an onlead greeting and I have friends with calm dogs where he's had gradual introductions and he can go on walks with them.

But he can't cope with strange dogs rushing up.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't mind my dogs interacting with others but if I see that one of my dogs isn't liking the dogs interacting with them then we move away.

Yesterday we met a 14 month old entire doberman - lovely boy! Bigby and him had a blast running around in the woods and Io just kept herself to herself and just did her own thing which was fine - she is choosy who she plays with and I think she just found him a bit too big.

It was nice for Bigby because what with him being attacked a few weeks ago - its good to build his confidence.

Io isn't generally a fan of spaniels, she finds them to in your face, so if one approaches we say our hellos and then move on.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> I don't think anyone has said their dog never interacts with others (apart from those with aggression issues that is). A lot don't allow their dogs to interact with dogs they don't know though. Which is all well and good if you have a large circle of dog owning friends/colleagues but not much use if you're like me and don't really know anyone and their dogs. I can certainly see the benefits in it though, I'd much rather my dog interact with known dogs of stable temperament, particularly during the critical periods, than random dogs who may or may not behave appropriately.
> 
> I don't mind Spen interacting with other dogs but I tend to keep interactions with random dogs very short to avoid problems. Once we know a dog a bit better he may want to play which I'm happy to allow if the other dog wants it but on the first few meetings it tends to be sniff and move on and be about your business.


Same here. We know very, very few people with dogs. Actually the only person we know is @Hanwombat lol. I was just kind of making a point that NO interactions does not equate - well socialised, just as mixing with all and sundry doesn't make a dog well socialised in the right way either. The balance is very hard to achieve IME.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I don't mind my dogs interacting with others but if I see that one of my dogs isn't liking the dogs interacting with them then we move away.
> 
> Yesterday we met a 14 month old entire doberman - lovely boy! Bigby and him had a blast running around in the woods and Io just kept herself to herself and just did her own thing which was fine - she is choosy who she plays with and I think she just found him a bit too big.
> 
> ...


I think Io finds Cash a bit to bolshy too, bless her. Cash ignored her last time, but his focus was on Bigby!


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Same here. We know very, very few people with dogs. Actually the only person we know is @Hanwombat lol. I was just kind of making a point that NO interactions does not equate - well socialised, just as mixing with all and sundry doesn't make a dog well socialised in the right way either. The balance is very hard to achieve IME.


We only know you as well - I don't know anyone else who I socially go on walks with, except @Dogloverlou


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I think Io finds Cash a bit to bolshy too, bless her. Cash ignored her last time, but his focus was on Bigby!


Io is a funny girl! She is all happy to be in some dogs face ( even though she hates it herself ) and then other times she completely ignores dogs. Bigby says he is happy to play with Cash


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> Io is a funny girl! She is all happy to be in some dogs face ( even though she hates it herself ) and then other times she completely ignores dogs. Bigby says he is happy to play with Cash


They've had some good play sessions, but she's happy to let Bigby take that role now  Don't blame her!

I took Cash to a dog park area when I first got him last year and he was very polite with other dogs, but with him he doesn't know when to stop exactly. So he'd run and run and run a dog ragged and when the other dog wants to stop he'll keep pushing. So I do have to be selective with dogs we meet and be vigilant. We actually haven't had a social walk with other dogs since we last met you Hannah!


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> They've had some good play sessions, but she's happy to let Bigby take that role now  Don't blame her!
> 
> I took Cash to a dog park area when I first got him last year and he was very polite with other dogs, but with him he doesn't know when to stop exactly. So he'd run and run and run a dog ragged and when the other dog wants to stop he'll keep pushing. So I do have to be selective with dogs we meet and be vigilant. We actually haven't had a social walk with other dogs since we last met you Hannah!


Haha - I think shes on the assumption now of 'let the smelly dirty boys play together and I'll do my own thing'  I think she had the same feeling yesterday.

Bigby actually got mud all over him - which is very unlike him, but I reckon he didn't want the doberman to think he was 'not cool' for hating water 

I never have a social walk - only with you and I've met up with @Milliepoochie too before, we were with the doberman a lot yesterday but only because we were walking the exact same walk.

Made me laugh as Bigby met a 16 week old staffie and the staff was going mental and Bigby didn't know what to do  lol


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

tabulahrasa said:


> Oh I know exactly why he's reactive, I mention it a lot, I just hadn't on this thread, lol.
> 
> He has various medical issues including elbow dysplasia and spinal pain and he's been attacked more than once.
> 
> ...


Sorry, i'll hold my hands up and say I understand in your situation then!


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Jazmine said:


> Your statements are typical of those who have no experience of a dog reactive dog. For the record, I would not consider my girl "dog reactive", she just does not want to interact with strange dogs so lets them know accordingly.
> 
> I do not let my dogs meet and greet unknown dogs on walks, I'm not sure why you assume this means they are denied all canine interaction? All of my dogs have "friends" they see at training, or out on walks together, this is where I allow them to socialise. When they are out with me alone, they come to me for their fun. They view me as far more valuable than that random dog way over there and that's the way I like it.
> 
> I say time and time again, when you walk down to street to the shops, do you say hi to every person you see? Do you you hug them, high five them, or do you just carry on your way, unless you see an acquaintance? So why do we expect our dogs to want to greet every dog they meet? They have dogs they like, dogs they don't like, dogs they are indifferent to, and there is nothing wrong with that.


I did mention that I had no experience in having a dog reactive dog, so I know that.
Your dogs 'friends'..how did he meet them, training? On a walk? Surely they were unknown dogs at some point. And just because you 'know' a dog, they are still an animal that can lash out whether you know it or not. I would rather politely let him greet an unknown dog, than deliberately pulling him away and coming across as rude. He does have fun with me on walks yes, but I love to see him interacting with his own kind. It may just be the area I live in, but in owning dogs for 16 years I have never come across an aggressive, rude, or obnoxious dog or owner, or one who refuses to let their dog interact.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> I did mention that I had no experience in having a dog reactive dog, so I know that.
> Your dogs 'friends'..how did he meet them, training? On a walk? Surely they were unknown dogs at some point. And just because you 'know' a dog, they are still an animal that can lash out whether you know it or not. I would rather politely let him greet an unknown dog, than deliberately pulling him away and coming across as rude. He does have fun with me on walks yes, but I love to see him interacting with his own kind. It may just be the area I live in, but in owning dogs for 16 years I have never come across an aggressive, rude, or obnoxious dog or owner, or one who refuses to let their dog interact.


Can't speak for others but my aggressive dog could be introduced very slowly and carefully to dogs of a very specific temperament and be absolutely fine with them. But a dog just walking up to him would have been sent to the emergency vet if he'd had his way. There's a huge, huge difference between introducing dogs in a controlled manner and setting them up for success and letting them meet and greet willy nilly.

Quite frankly I don't care if I come across as rude. I allow Spen a couple of seconds to sniff and then move him on. Most dogs where we walk are friendly enough but most mature, well socialised adults don't want more than a quick sniff and move on. And while yes, any dogs can have an argument a quick spat between two dogs who know each other and usually get on is nothing remotely like a genuine fight or attack.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Brannybear said:


> It may just be the area I live in, but in owning dogs for 16 years I have never come across an aggressive, rude, or obnoxious dog or owner, or one who refuses to let their dog interact.


wow, you are very lucky!! I have been physically threatened by other dog owners and verbally abused a few times now! (and generally its coz Im trying to fend off their out of control dog and they object coz 'hes only playing'). Im also the one that would refuse to let their dog interact! ok, maybe with Alf its coz he is a total basketcase and would start a fight but other dogs terrify Heidi so I certainly wouldnt push her to meet another dog just coz of some out dated idea that all dogs should be friends.
We bred dogs to be more focused on people so its not surprising that an awful lot of them have no interest in forced greetings with strange mutts. Hannah will give a quick greeting sniff in passing to other dogs but then she wants to move on with her family, not be pestered and Ive found this to be true for alot of dogs (their tolerance levels are for a quick sniff or maybe even just a curious look whilst passing).
I do have a social butterfly in Adam though but he is extremely well mannered and never forces himself on other dogs. If they indicate they dont want to be bothered then he just doesnt approach them.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Brannybear said:


> I did mention that I had no experience in having a dog reactive dog, so I know that.
> Your dogs 'friends'..how did he meet them, training? On a walk? Surely they were unknown dogs at some point. And just because you 'know' a dog, they are still an animal that can lash out whether you know it or not. I would rather politely let him greet an unknown dog, than deliberately pulling him away and coming across as rude. He does have fun with me on walks yes, but I love to see him interacting with his own kind. It may just be the area I live in, but in owning dogs for 16 years I have never come across an aggressive, rude, or obnoxious dog or owner, or one who refuses to let their dog interact.


The dogs I allow mine to interact with are the dogs of friends, or dogs we know via training. And yes, I am fully aware that a scrap can occur between dogs that know each other. However, if I know whether a dog's play style is compatible with my own, I know I am greatly reducing the risk. One of my best friends has an over the top beagle who is completely unsuitable for my dogs, so we don't get them together. The dogs mine mostly mix with have their own quirks, but because we know them, and know their body language, we are usually pretty good at seeing what is play, and what is perhaps escalating.

Out on a walk with random dogs, I have less control over whether a dog will suit mine, so I choose to stay away. If you want to perceive that as rude, then tough, my dogs' well being comes first. As it happens, I do my level best to avoid such dogs and owners, and thus avoid "being rude", but if they still insist on crossing a field or whatever to allow their dog access to mine, then yes, I will say something. Politely at first, more forcefully if I need to. I will not allow my dogs to be bounced on by a rude, boisterous dog just because their owner thinks their dog needs to "socialise".

Funnily enough, there is more to a dog walk than "socialising" your dogs so I am not sure why you seem to think that dogs that don't get to meet and greet are terribly deprived, bored creatures, desperate for a meet with another dog. Mine have each other, and me, to interact with on walks. I don't stroll along on my phone/with my head in the clouds, I engage them, we have fun together.

I am not sure what you seem to find so offensive/ difficult to understand about my approach.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Brannybear said:


> I did mention that I had no experience in having a dog reactive dog, so I know that.
> Your dogs 'friends'..how did he meet them, training? On a walk? Surely they were unknown dogs at some point. And just because you 'know' a dog, they are still an animal that can lash out whether you know it or not. I would rather politely let him greet an unknown dog, than deliberately pulling him away and coming across as rude. He does have fun with me on walks yes, but* I love to see him interacting with his own kind*. It may just be the area I live in, but in owning dogs for 16 years I have never come across an aggressive, rude, or obnoxious dog or owner, or one who refuses to let their dog interact.


This bit is bugging me, my dogs interact plenty with their own kind thank you very much, even when I just had the one. There are other ways to achieve this than just going to the local dog walking hotspot, letting them off the lead and seeing what happens.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Jazmine said:


> This bit is bugging me, my dogs interact plenty with their own kind thank you very much, even when I just had the one. There are other ways to achieve this than just going to the local dog walking hotspot, letting them off the lead and seeing what happens.


You seem to be taking this too personally.. i'm not at all saying let them off lead and hope for the best. I never said that dogs who don't socialise are deprived and bored, i'm personally saying I've never had a bad experience and have always had dogs with no problems towards others. Maybe i'm just lucky but it works for me.
I do not find your opinion offensive, as you said, it's your opinion and I have mine.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I often think there's a lot of confusion over what is meant by socialising to be honest. People seem to take it as dogs needing to meet and play with most of the dogs they see. I must admit, I got sick to death of hearing that dogs need to socialise when I had Rupert. Always from people who couldn't stop their dogs running up or be bothered to catch them after they'd failed to stop them approaching.

I've had lots of bad experiences with other dogs. First with Shadow who was infirm and easily knocked down by "friendly" dogs. And Wolf who was one of those dogs with a kick me sign on his back, he got bullied by most dogs we encountered but it never affected him badly. Then Rupe who was frightened of other dogs but became seriously aggressive after a number of incidents, including two serious attacks with intent. Even though he came out better off in those they were the straw that broke the camels back. Spen has been in a few noisy scuffles and been snapped at by random dogs a few times but nothing major. The good experiences probably far outweigh the bad ones to be honest over the 4 dogs I've had but it's the bad ones that tend to leave lasting impressions on some dogs. And their owners for that matter.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When our old Staffy girl, Leah, was fifteen, I used to take her for her daily potter around the park. She was quite stiff, but used to love going round at her own pace, having a good sniff and a look around. Leah was never a sociable dog, she was never aggressive towards other dogs, just ignored them, but if a boisterous, big dog came at her, she would turn tail and run.

We were out one afternoon, when I spotted two Ridgebacks coming towards me, running. Their owner was busy texting on her 'phone.

When the dogs spotted Leah, they started running at her and I had to put her onlead quick, or she would have run. As they got to us, I pulled Leah behind me and managed to divert one dog with my knee, but the other crashed right into Leah, sent her flying, and when I tried to get her up, she was obviously in a lot of pain in one of her hips.

As I was trying to help Leah, these dogs were still trying to jump all over her, so I yelled to their owner to come and get hold of them.

She walked up to us and said "They're only playing you know". I was so upset by then I told her quite forcefully that it didn't matter what the hell they were doing, they had really hurt Leah.

This woman just didn't get it. She thought that because her dogs were playing and hadn't meant to hurt Leah, then I had no right to be upset.

I was very upset at the sight of the poor old girl, lying on the floor, hurt and looking absolutely terrified.

Some owners have no idea whatsoever what 'socialising' really means.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ i'm personally saying I've never had a bad experience and have always had dogs with no problems towards others_
My current dog falls into exactly that category, perfectly sociable and so far has had no problem with others - barring over enthusiasm when young maybe. He gets lead walked every day *as well *as free play with other dogs in a secure field on a regular basis with consenting owners there for the same reason and no chance of bothering anyone who doesn't want bothered. They are two completely different things. Why this assumption that all dogs on a lead are a problem?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Brannybear said:


> one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden.


Oh we have no fun at all 









Just because a dog does not wish to meet and greet all and sundry, it doesn't mean they have any less 'fun'


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> I did mention that I had no experience in having a dog reactive dog, so I know that.
> Your dogs 'friends'..how did he meet them, training? On a walk? Surely they were unknown dogs at some point. And just because you 'know' a dog, they are still an animal that can lash out whether you know it or not. I would rather politely let him greet an unknown dog, than deliberately pulling him away and coming across as rude. He does have fun with me on walks yes, but I love to see him interacting with his own kind. It may just be the area I live in, but in owning dogs for 16 years I have never come across an aggressive, rude, or obnoxious dog or owner, or one who refuses to let their dog interact.


My dogs have their own set of canine pals who are owned by friends and we sometimes meet up and go for a walk. We also used to regularly go on large, social walks with both known and unknown dogs, sometimes there was 30+ dogs and mine were totally fine in that situation. They were happy to mingle and be in the company of these dogs but they still didnt play and would still correct another dog if it overstepped the mark. Dogs arent stupid, mine are able to tell when we are in a social situation with dogs and when we are walking alone and a strange dog comes over uninvited. The former is acceptable, the latter is not. Even with friends dogs it takes a while for one of mine to accept them if a newbie arrives, and he will grumble and snap until an understanding is reached and he feels comfortable in their presence, but he isnt a danger to them, he simply wants to make it clear to them what the 'rules' are regarding interaction with him. As for training then no, I dont allow them to socialise in classes. They are not there for that purpose, they are there to learn and to focus on me and whatever task I ask of them.

And as for coming across as rude, well, I dont really care about that tbh. These people who I see on walks mean nothing to me, what do I care what they think of me? I have had plenty of arguments with people about the conduct of their dogs and have been accused of not allowing my dogs to do anything, that i'm too strict, that they clearly arent socialised if I dont want dogs coming over which is all a load of tosh, I am simply a stickler for responsibility and keep my dogs under control.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ I am simply a stickler for responsibility and keep my dogs under control._
That makes two of us 

Many years ago I had a friend I'd sometimes chance across when out as we used the same tracks for walks. For a long time our dogs enjoyed meeting up and having the chance to run together - until the day her dog ripped my dog's throat out. We have no idea why it happened, what triggered it. We certainly didn't fall out over it as, to our shame, neither of us were watching as we should have been so can't say who initiated the fight. All we know is that my dog came off worst (though did survive) and her poor (otherwise gentle) dog was muzzled when out for the rest of its life. There's no such thing as a dog guaranteed to be 'friendly' all the time with all other dogs.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Oh the irony... We had an incident on our walk this evening. Ironic because I walk in very quiet places and we rarely come across other dogs, so it's odd that it happened today, after this conversation.

Anyhow, out with my dogs this eve, I notice two walkers across the far side of the field, chatting whilst their dogs play. One dog, a mastiff cross, clocks mine from that distance and starts heading over. I assume as it's so far, the owner will notice before it gets near and get it back. No such luck. By the time the owner had lifted his head from his chat and realised his dog was off, it was all the way with us. Mira knows in these situations to get behind me, and I won't let the dog near. Scout and Drift carry on mooching about paying it no attention. It runs over to Scout and tries to body slam him. No sniffing, no greeting, just wallop. Scout does not appreciate this, and makes it clear he doesn't, now I have two dogs posturing at each other. It is at this point that the owner realises where his dog is and half heatedly tries to call it back. It ignores, until it realises that none of my dogs are going to play with it and heads back. We carry on across the field, 5 minutes later, same thing happens again. At this point I do lose my cool and yell at the guy to get his dog. He is so far he can barely hear me but I am fairly sure he could see that I was far from happy. And why the hell should I be? I am not there to provide entertainment for his dog whilst he stands and has a chat. And allowing your dog to run at another dog from all the way across a field is unacceptable. I am wondering what @Brannybear would have me do in this situation? Smile and just let the dog charge and mine, because hey, it's just socialisation right?


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

I havent read the whole thread but as the owner of a dog who is very nervous and scared, I dont apprecieate it when dogs charged over 2 football fields to ram their nose into Dotties butt. If it is just me and Charlie, I'm not so bothered as he has good social skills and is rather confident, sometimes too confident which can be a problem, so for easiness sake, I take them both to quiet areas. 

If a dog bolts off and the owner comes over and says sorry, I dont really give a stuff as I have been there many times before and when everything has calmed down, I chat with them and tell them dont worry. It's the owners who watch as their dog runs around mine, diving in and out and strolls on a field away. They can see there is an upset, so to me it is just plain rude and disrespectful to allow your dog to clear 500 metres of field to bother other dogs. 

As you may have seen from the other thread (Day to day) I had an incident last week when a woman let one of her four dogs run across a whole playing field and come and see Charlie on lead. Charlie got his handbags out, despite meeting this dog before and being fine and a scuffle ensued. Luckily my OH was there and he got them apart and then went over and said sorry to the other lady, although in my blind rage I at the time didnt think she deserved that (although deep down I know she did). She didnt even notice he was gone and didnt really care. I on the other hand was crying my eyes out in the corner, the first walk I had braved to do with my two in a long time as at 8 months pregnant, I can not walk them on my own anymore. 

It ruined my week and I cried all the way back to the car, it reinforced my fear of going out on my own and was obviously a horrible experience for all the dogs. The point I'm trying to make is, your dog may be fine but it may be because of issues the owner is having themselves they choose to walk on their own. Hats off to all dog owners who walk their dogs with limited mobility on a daily basis, I don't know how you do it.


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## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if I'm repeating anyone, but I think one of the problems is so many people don't walk their dogs, but go out for a walk with their dog there. I see so many people arrive at the park and then set the dog loose, ignoring it, texting or chatting with other walkers for the majority of the walk. They have idea what their dog is doing and let it charge around unchecked for most of the walk. There's so many people like this in my area. One woman in particular who has an incredibly annoying doodle and walks miles ahead of it, occasionally half-heartedly calling it's name while it crashes into other dogs, tears about and barks it's head off. If people actually interacted with their dogs on walks, then there would be a lot less incidents of dogs hassling others.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> I did mention that I had no experience in having a dog reactive dog, so I know that.
> Your dogs 'friends'..how did he meet them, training? On a walk? Surely they were unknown dogs at some point. And just because you 'know' a dog, they are still an animal that can lash out whether you know it or not. I would rather politely let him greet an unknown dog, than deliberately pulling him away and coming across as rude. He does have fun with me on walks yes, but I love to see him interacting with his own kind. It may just be the area I live in, but in owning dogs for 16 years I have never come across an aggressive, rude, or obnoxious dog or owner, or one who refuses to let their dog interact.


I hope you find this thread useful then not having had a reactive dog. How blissful 

In answer to your question, my dog met her friends on an equal level - all off lead. Once she's done that, she'll happily go on lead next to them and walk perfectly calm. In fact, she happily gets into a van these days with friends and maybe a new friend absolutely fine. I have found that smaller strange dogs on a short lead so they are somewhat contained are fine, it's the boisterous often on a flexi lead dogs that worry her the most.

BUT as I said in my first post, it's all about asking permission from the owner first. It's great that you haven't seen an reactive dog in 16 years but I'll be honest, it struck me that perhaps you were not aware that a dog was indeed reactive before yours approached? A chap said that to me once without realising that he had unwittingly let his dog upset three of them in the car park alone by just not realising what lead reactive really means.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Two of my most favourite resources for this subject are

http://suzanneclothier.com/the-articles/he-just-wants-say-hi

And the book Out and About with your dog by Sue Sternberg

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Out-About-Y...5175575?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445371595&sr=1-2


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> Graham is absolutely fine with other dogs, and if anything at his age I welcome other dogs to give him good experiences. If he's off lead, and I see either an on-lead dog or someone putting their dog on lead then I will put him on lead. Only if they confirm their dog is ok with other dogs, I will let him greet them and possibly play off lead together. The same goes for, if someone comes with an offlead dog and does not attempt to call them back, neither will I.
> I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden.
> It may not make much sense in the way i'm writing it, but I respect that some people may have dog aggressive dogs for reasons such as being attacked or having a bad experience which is a very valid reason.
> But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs.


I haven't finished reading the replies, but this post just shows your ignorance! What evidence do you have that "most dogs" are DA because they're not allowed to interact with other dogs?

I don't let my dogs interact with other dogs because it's clueless owners who assume Max is "aggressive" when he growls. He growls in play (not so much nowadays, but he used to), but other owners hear the growl and immediately assume he's "vicious" or aggressive. Many of these same clueless owners don't realise that my dog is grumbling at theirs because their dog is getting in his face or too close to him for comfort, and "it's OK, he's friendly!" 

As for the comment about a dog who doesn't get to interact with other dogs missing out on fun, how frankly laughable! I took Milly to the beach today (Max was welcome, but didn't want to come). Milly is the more sociable of my dogs and she did politely greet, what looked like a poodle cross. But after that, she much preferred playing with me and her ball, and while there were dogs on the beach that she could have gone to greet, me and her ball won - hands down!

So no, she's not "missing out" on fun. She doesn't need other dogs to provide her with amusement.

As for Max a nice potter around the field, sniffing the sniffs and seeing the sights is preferable to playing with the local canine joker! His perfect idea of a greet is a dog that walks in and sniffs the same scent as him, before greeting him politely and going on his own way.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Perhaps this is easier for some people to understand. Is party boy the human version of your dog?






If so, then please keep it away from my dog. Thanks


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Nettles said:


> Perhaps this is easier for some people to understand. Is party boy the human version of your dog?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I know you meant to use the clip to highlight your point but this is hilarious and I remember watching that back in the day  Can't remember whether that was from Jackass or not?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Sorry, I know you meant to use the clip to highlight your point but this is hilarious and I remember watching that back in the day  Can't remember whether that was from Jackass or not?


Don't apologise! That's just how I see some dogs behaving and it gives me a good giggle every time I think of it. You're right, it was from the first Jackass movie. I'm almost ashamed to admit I have them all on dvd :Bag


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Nettles said:


> Don't apologise! That's just how I see some dogs behaving and it gives me a good giggle every time I think of it. You're right, it was from the first Jackass movie. I'm almost ashamed to admit I have them all on dvd :Bag


Jackass was brill at the time, although couldn't tell you whether it's still going or not! I like the comparison you made


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

From what I see from Muttly, he greets in a very excited manner, then he goes back to his sniffing.

Did I show the pics of my dog playing with ME on our walk?
It goes like this...where is he..








There he is!!!!








I know it's blurry but you can make out a happy, excited face. Muttly initiates this game every night with me. We also play chase wherever the mood takes us, he usually starts it.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Jackass was brill at the time, although couldn't tell you whether it's still going or not! I like the comparison you made


Don't know if it's still going either. I suppose there's only so many times you can watch a nutter staple his scrotum to the floor before its starts getting a little bit repetitive


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Brannybear said:


> Graham is absolutely fine with other dogs, and if anything at his age I welcome other dogs to give him good experiences. If he's off lead, and I see either an on-lead dog or someone putting their dog on lead then I will put him on lead. Only if they confirm their dog is ok with other dogs, I will let him greet them and possibly play off lead together. The same goes for, if someone comes with an offlead dog and does not attempt to call them back, neither will I.
> I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden.
> It may not make much sense in the way i'm writing it, but I respect that some people may have dog aggressive dogs for reasons such as being attacked or having a bad experience which is a very valid reason.
> But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague and therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad. I believe that if you socialise your dog well at a young age, yet keep them under control at all times then I do not see why they would have a problem with other dogs.


Graham is also still a puppy.

I've been lurking but not posting, as I'm not feeling my normal "friendly" self, but had to comment on this as posts like this get right up my hooter ( did I mention I'm not feeling very friendly), "*But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague" *comments like this really make me unfriendly and aggressive I've had the misfortune be a well socalised person yet still am considered "aggressive".

Socialising with every dog on the earth, and allowing your dog to play and greet all other dogs are more likely to be the cause of your dog being reactive rather than carefully planned and control socialisation.

I am one of those mean evil people who don't allow my dogs to mix with dogs they don't know and we don't allow them to greet others while out walking and they certainly don't get to play with strange dogs, they are asked to sit and wait while others go past such a kill joy hey......... My dogs do have fun, lots of it.

I have 3 dogs with no issues with other dogs at all, because I closely monitored who my dogs get to greet, they they haven't had a bad experience with other dogs despite being round hundreds most weekends. I also have a bitch who came to me scared to death of other dogs living with 12 other dogs you'd think she's be well used to dogs, but unfortunately for her those first 8 months of her life spent with other dogs were not positive for her, so she did react to other dogs, now she doesn't because she knows she's not going to be forced to interact with dogs, she can avoid them if she wants and now is very calm and assured with those she does meet.

I haven't taught my dogs those I have now nor those I've had in my 30 plus years of dog ownership ( thought I'd throw that in as seemingly years owning dogs makes you right) to be fearful of other dogs nor have I taught them other dogs are bad, what I have taught them is they don't need to greet every dog, they don't have to put up with rude dogs nor do they have to correct other peoples dogs.

They also get to have fun with each other, and the select few dogs they know well, and get to see and be with 100's of dogs at the weekend, and have been spared the rude, ill mannered and inappropriate dogs, oddly what we humans find acceptable behaviour dogs often take offence too, hence the oft heard lament " OH fluffies never done that before"...


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Clearly it's a touchy subject that I should not have dared voice my opinion about!
I don't think experience of owning a dog for so and so years matters at all if i'm honest, I just stated I'd never had a bad experience.
Good for you that your dogs have loaaads of fun with you on a walk, when did I not say they didn't?... 9 out of 10 walks we have we do not see other dogs. The 1 we do, i'm just saying I would not purposefully and for no apparent reason avoid him interacting with it. Whether it be a quick sniff or an offlead play.
Regarding being 'ignorant', I'm not. I can understand the issue just don't have any experience with it. I'm not saying I know it all in any way..just voicing my personal views.
Yes Graham is still a puppy but I do actually own other dogs, and by the way he is going is perfect. Maybe I've jinxed myself and i'll end up with a reactive, snappy, unsociable dog now but hey! then i'll be able to turn into a rude dog walker who insists on walking in busy spots but snapping at everyone who comes within a mile


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> Clearly it's a touchy subject that I should not have dared voice my opinion about!
> I don't think experience of owning a dog for so and so years matters at all if i'm honest, I just stated I'd never had a bad experience.
> Good for you that your dogs have loaaads of fun with you on a walk, when did I not say they didn't?... 9 out of 10 walks we have we do not see other dogs. The 1 we do, i'm just saying I would not purposefully and for no apparent reason avoid him interacting with it. Whether it be a quick sniff or an offlead play.
> Regarding being 'ignorant', I'm not. I can understand the issue just don't have any experience with it. I'm not saying I know it all in any way..just voicing my personal views.
> Yes Graham is still a puppy but I do actually own other dogs, and by the way he is going is perfect. Maybe I've jinxed myself and i'll end up with a reactive, snappy, unsociable dog now but hey! then i'll be able to turn into a rude dog walker who insists on walking in busy spots but snapping at everyone who comes within a mile


I'm not rude and I don't snap at anyone who comes within a mile, I don't need to.

Rosie is perfectly able to snap at rude dogs herself.

In my opinion, if I am walking, with Rosie next to me, and someone allows their offlead dog to come running up to us, then that's rude.

Amazing how often Space Invaders make excuses along the lines of "It's cruel to not allow your dog to socialise". Some dogs don't want to socialise but the "He only wants to play" brigade don't seem to get that.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Brannybear said:


> Clearly it's a touchy subject that I should not have dared voice my opinion about!
> I don't think experience of owning a dog for so and so years matters at all if i'm honest, I just stated I'd never had a bad experience.
> .. 9 out of 10 walks we have we do not see other dogs. The 1 we do, i'm just saying I would not purposefully and for no apparent reason avoid him interacting with it. Whether it be a quick sniff or an offlead play.
> Regarding being 'ignorant', I'm not. I can understand the issue just don't have any experience with it. I'm not saying I know it all in any way..just voicing my personal views.
> Yes Graham is still a puppy but I do actually own other dogs, and by the way he is going is perfect. Maybe I've jinxed myself and i'll end up with a reactive, snappy, unsociable dog now but hey! t


See this is again where I have issues with people opinions ( you know what they say about them)*"then i'll be able to turn into a rude dog walker who insists on walking in busy spots but snapping at everyone who comes within a mile" *sweeping generalisation when you admit yourself you don't have experience, yes I will tell people to get control of their dogs when they are all over mine, not because my dogs have any issues, but because it's rude, you should have control of your dog in a public place.......... You are risking your dog by not having it under control.
*Good for you that your dogs have loaaads of fun with you on a walk, when did I not say they didn't?.*
I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest *what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden*. Umm here...

*I don't think experience of owning a dog for so and so years matters at all if i'm honest, *
So why bring up your years of dog ownership?

He's go be to be perfect? Yes sounds like it from your previous threads.

Fine saying you have opinions yes everyone is entitled to them but not fine to say:

"*But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad "*

Because it's utterly incorrect and shows your lack of experience even in your 16 years of dog ownership 

*
*


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> Clearly it's a touchy subject that I should not have dared voice my opinion about!
> I don't think experience of owning a dog for so and so years matters at all if i'm honest, I just stated I'd never had a bad experience.
> Good for you that your dogs have loaaads of fun with you on a walk, when did I not say they didn't?... 9 out of 10 walks we have we do not see other dogs. The 1 we do, i'm just saying I would not purposefully and for no apparent reason avoid him interacting with it. Whether it be a quick sniff or an offlead play.
> Regarding being 'ignorant', I'm not. I can understand the issue just don't have any experience with it. I'm not saying I know it all in any way..just voicing my personal views.
> Yes Graham is still a puppy but I do actually own other dogs, and by the way he is going is perfect. Maybe I've jinxed myself and i'll end up with a reactive, snappy, unsociable dog now but hey! then i'll be able to turn into a rude dog walker who insists on walking in busy spots but snapping at everyone who comes within a mile


Voicing your opinion is fine.

Stating facts, (which you've been doing), is completely different, so don't be surprised when you're challenged.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Meezey said:


> See this is again where I have issues with people opinions ( you know what they say about them)*"then i'll be able to turn into a rude dog walker who insists on walking in busy spots but snapping at everyone who comes within a mile" *sweeping generalisation when you admit yourself you don't have experience, yes I will tell people to get control of their dogs when they are all over mine, not because my dogs have any issues, but because it's rude, you should have control of your dog in a public place.......... You are risking your dog by not having it under control.
> *Good for you that your dogs have loaaads of fun with you on a walk, when did I not say they didn't?.*
> I have to admit, I will never be one of those dog owners that insist their dog never greets another, has to sit while they walk by, etc because if i'm honest *what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden*. Umm here...
> 
> ...


I was not boasting about years of dog experience, I said in the years I have owned a dog (does not matter how many) I've not had a bad experience.

Sounds like it from previous threads? Not sure what that comment is meant to mean, but I'm guessing it is not a nice one so please resist.

Again, who are you to say it's an incorrect statement? I do have a lack of experience which I have admitted about this topic, and again years do not matter to me. You could have owned dogs 50+ or 1 no amount of experience is going to make a difference I would still have the same opinion as I do now.

Don't get yourself worked up about my opinion, because it's always going to be there whether I voice it or not. Seems as though some people on this forum resort to being keyboard warriors as soon as someone says something against the rest.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Voicing your opinion is fine.
> 
> Stating facts, (which you've been doing), is completely different, so don't be surprised when you're challenged.


I don't feel i'm being challenged at all, you're saying your opinion i'm saying mine. Not surprised at all though, just didn't feel as though I should not comment on this read just because I don't agree with the majority.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

@Brannybear, you didn't say anything in response to my experiences with DA with my dog which I made a point of making because of your comments. There are many of us here I'm sure who can attest to the fact our dogs are not DA because they haven't been allowed to interact with others.

I do think there is some truth to what you're saying. Like you I've never had a bad experience directed at my dogs caused by an off lead out of control dog either. Most are actually very respectful and once in close range to Missy give us space which is very wise of them as she's going nuts by this point usually. I personally think most of these out of control dog scenarios happen in more built up, popular dog walking spots, which is why we avoid park settings like the plague mostly. Although I do occasionally take Cash to such an area for training purposes.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Brannybear said:


> I was not boasting about years of dog experience, I said in the years I have owned a dog (does not matter how many) I've not had a bad experience.
> 
> Sounds like it from previous threads? Not sure what that comment is meant to mean, but I'm guessing it is not a nice one so please resist.
> 
> ...


It's amusing that people resort to calling people key board warriors when people don't agree with them?

Your opinion is not based on fact, you have just said you have no experience with it? Be it 5 years or 16 years or 50 you have no experience of it so you can't make comments like:
"*But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad "*

Because it's not true, from experience of having dogs who are not allowed to greet every dogs on walks,who does ask their dogs to sit and wait, and doesn't let their dogs off to play off lead with other dogs I have never had a dog reactive dog. Other people with experience in it have explained their experiences, you by you own admission don't have experience, rarely even meet other dogs on your walks, nor have you met a dog reactive dog, or had one so how can you make comments like the above?


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> @Brannybear, your comments about DA dogs being the way they are because owners have avoided other dogs isn't true, as others have pointed out to you. I've avoided this thread up to now because I generally don't share the same views regarding off lead dogs/owners, but did want to pick up on that comment. I socialised Missy well with everything - attending puppy parties at the local vet surgery, then on to puppy training classes and daily walks with local dog walkers. I did everything right in terms of what is suggested for new puppy owners. However at around a year old another dog snapped at Missy to warn her away/calm down...I can't remember the exact scenario now. But Missy flew at the dog! Totally out of the blue to my inexperienced mind at the time and she was on top of the other dog, lots of noise and the other dog's owner young toddler was knocked over in the madness  She didn't cause any harm, neither did the other dog, but it was a real shock. From that day onwards she's been DA. Just like that. I was pretty young at the time and didn't really know where to turn so working with a behaviourist and trainer came some years later and we made minor improvements, but she really is a case of general management really.
> 
> However, I do understand what you're saying to some degree because I do feel there is a very fine line in terms of just the right amount of socialisation to have a well adjusted adult. All these people who claim their dogs never interact with others is all well and good but without ANY interactions I fail to see how skilled their dogs are in reading dog body language and the like. And of course if your dog isn't interacting you never have to know/see your dog struggle to communicate.


Sorry i'm trying to generally reply to everyone but must have missed this one. I do of course understand that some dogs no matter how you bring them up or train them, will not like other dogs approaching them. However, like you also point out I strongly believe that if everyone avoided direct contact with other dogs then they would have more problems as a result.
I appreciate your comments as you can see both sides, and (hopefully) can see that i'm not posting maliciously, I just personally cannot see any benefit to purposely minimising a dogs interaction with others. UNLESS you 100% know that they simply do not like other dogs. But like you in that case, I would get the help from a trainer/behaviourist to try and help the problem.
It sounds awful I know, but often people blame owners who let their dogs socialise (and yes I appreciate that some dogs are too boisterous and in that case I think should be controlled more) for their own dogs snapping and snarling. I personally would not worry about other dogs and their owners, i'd focus on why my dog has a problem. Whether it was something fixable or something manageable.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> @Brannybear, you didn't say anything in response to my experiences with DA with my dog which I made a point of making because of your comments. There are many of us here I'm sure who can attest to the fact our dogs are not DA because they haven't been allowed to interact with others.
> 
> I do think there is some truth to what you're saying. Like you I've never had a bad experience directed at my dogs caused by an off lead out of control dog either. Most are actually very respectful and once in close range to Missy give us space which is very wise of them as she's going nuts by this point usually. I personally think most of these out of control dog scenarios happen in more built up, popular dog walking spots, which is why we avoid park settings like the plague mostly. Although I do occasionally take Cash to such an area for training purposes.


Also, like you've said there tends to be this sort of out of control behaviour in busy places, and everyone knows that. So if you had a reactive dog in any way why on earth would you take them to these places and not expect to be bothered by other dogs.
In most places there are the loveliest of walks where you do not see a soul, and not in a horrid way but anyone with an unsociable dog have plenty of other places to go. Unless of course like you've mentioned, are in the process of training to cope with not so nice walking environments.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

My dog used to live with two other dogs and he was also allowed to go off and meet and play with who ever he wished...if the statement held true then my dog would never have become dog reactive!

He became dog reactive after many experiences of out of control off leash "he's friendly" rude, obnoxious dogs coming into his face (and being lauched at by some). One day he decided that he had, had enough so made sure other dogs knew full well that he did not wish to interact...Thankfully we are starting to come out the other side now and we are able to deal with most encounters with no issue.

But comments such as "*But most dog aggressive dogs are actually that way because they have owners that avoid other dogs like the plague therefore unintentionally teach their dogs that any other dog is bad " *get to the best of us at times, especially when that comment (opinion or not) is so blatantly wrong it is laughable.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> @Brannybear, you didn't say anything in response to my experiences with DA with my dog which I made a point of making because of your comments. There are many of us here I'm sure who can attest to the fact our dogs are not DA because they haven't been allowed to interact with others.


Far from it. In many cases it's interaction with random dogs that causes problems, not avoiding them.

You don't need to go to busy off lead places to regularly encounter out of control dogs I'm afraid. I avoided such areas like the plague and still met many rude, out of control dogs. And why should it be that those of us in control are the ones restricted in where we walk? Surely those with out of control dogs should be the ones restricted. Again that "I'm alright Jack" mindset implying that coz a dog is "friendly" it's ok to not have it under control.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Brannybear said:


> Sorry i'm trying to generally reply to everyone but must have missed this one. I do of course understand that some dogs no matter how you bring them up or train them, will not like other dogs approaching them. However, like you also point out I strongly believe that if everyone avoided direct contact with other dogs then they would have more problems as a result.
> I appreciate your comments as you can see both sides, and (hopefully) can see that i'm not posting maliciously, I just personally cannot see any benefit to purposely minimising a dogs interaction with others. UNLESS you 100% know that they simply do not like other dogs. But like you in that case, I would get the help from a trainer/behaviourist to try and help the problem.
> It sounds awful I know, but often people blame owners who let their dogs socialise (and yes I appreciate that some dogs are too boisterous and in that case I think should be controlled more) for their own dogs snapping and snarling. I personally would not worry about other dogs and their owners, i'd focus on why my dog has a problem. Whether it was something fixable or something manageable.





Brannybear said:


> Also, like you've said there tends to be this sort of out of control behaviour in busy places, and everyone knows that. So if you had a reactive dog in any way why on earth would you take them to these places and not expect to be bothered by other dogs.
> In most places there are the loveliest of walks where you do not see a soul, and not in a horrid way but anyone with an unsociable dog have plenty of other places to go. Unless of course like you've mentioned, are in the process of training to cope with not so nice walking environments.


Yep, I really can see it from both sides of the fence. I have one DA dog, so understand the frustrations possible interactions can bring, but OTOH my older boy is very sociable, and not in a OTT way either. He likes to approach, sniff, and move on and I find a lot of pleasure in seeing dogs interact. However, I did do things wrong when he was youngster and in turn created a dog that whilst polite with others, will blow off a recall command to go seek out a dog. This obviously has the potential to turn sour if he approached the wrong dog and we've had to be very careful all his adult life as to when and where we let him off. I wish I hadn't allowed him so much freedom to socialise.
With my youngster I try to get the balance just right, which is why I've found it incredibly hard to achieve. He is sociable, but less tolerant, and the training we do in the park setting with him is not so much to do with bad behaviour on his part but to get him used to working and focusing on me in more distracting environments. But with him, denying interactions has created some impulse control issues which we constantly have to work on.

As for where DA dogs should walk, in principle I agree with you that you shouldn't walk them through a park and not expect to be approached IMO.....and is the main reason Missy has never set foot in the park Cash visits. But, if such a place is the only available option to an owner they shouldn't be made to feel guilty for walking where they wish. At the end of the day in an ideal world everybody would have control of their dogs at all times and we could expect to walk peacefully. But that will ever happen, so we have to weigh up the pros/cons to choosing walking destinations accordingly.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> Good for you that your dogs have loaaads of fun with you on a walk, when did I not say they didn't?


Ummmm .... Here:



Brannybear said:


> because if i'm honest what fun are they ever going to have if all dogs are completely forbidden.


Incidentally, ignorance simply means not knowing the facts about something, so you ARE ignorant of dog aggression, which has been clearly illustrated repeatedly in your posts.

You also trust other dog owners to correctly judge whether their dog is friendly, OTT, aggressive, rude, etc when most are blind to what is and is not acceptable, friendly behaviour ("Only if the other owner says their dog is friendly do mine get to play with them"). It was an "It's OK, he's friendly" dog that bit Max's left foreleg clean to the bone. The idiotic owner then tried to blame the surrounding glass, because of course, Max goes round walking on his wrists  And we all know that shards of glass look exactly like a dogs canine.

So yes, you go ahead and allow your dog to play with "It's Ok, he's friendly" dogs. Obviously so far it's worked for you. Meanwhile I'll judge whether my dog/s can meet that dog that's heading in our direction by reading the DOG'S body language and not depending on the owner correctly assessing their dog's sociability.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

LinznMilly said:


> Ummmm .... Here:
> 
> Incidentally, ignorance simply means not knowing the facts about something, so you ARE ignorant of dog aggression, which has been clearly illustrated repeatedly in your posts.
> 
> ...


It's works for us both so yes, we'll go ahead and keep doing what we're doing


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Far from it. In many cases it's interaction with random dogs that causes problems, not avoiding them.
> 
> You don't need to go to busy off lead places to regularly encounter out of control dogs I'm afraid. I avoided such areas like the plague and still met many rude, out of control dogs. And why should it be that those of us in control are the ones restricted in where we walk? Surely those with out of control dogs should be the ones restricted. Again that "I'm alright Jack" mindset implying that coz a dog is "friendly" it's ok to not have it under control.


Exactly!!! We often encounter people like this, it really winds me up! Because Muttly is friendly, but he lacks manners (though he's learning), yet he still gets accosted by other over friendly dogs. They go "It's ok, he's friendly' while their dog is bounding over to us, Muttly on lead. What I want to say is "Yeah so is mine, but I'm teaching him manners ffs!!!" but instead I just say "Mine's not, that's why he's on a lead"
Because of course all this is shouted and I need a quick, but polite, piss off, not the in and outs of what I'm training my dog.
It's just very unfair. Muttly needs to be under control, on a lead in high populated areas, shame others don't realise that while they are looking down their nose at my 'untrained dog':Shifty this is actually what they shoudl be doing with theirs!!!!
Am I getting through?? I'm rubbish at explaining things :Sorry


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Always those who say it's alright she/hes friendly who they label my dog an issue when he's had enough of said dog bouncing off his head, paws on his back, sniffing his back side, and bits, but one warning growl from him suddenly gets him labelled " dog aggressive", strange how people can't see issue with their dogs behavior but like to blame others  and if I did let him off lead, and he scares other dog ( which happens as Rottweilers tend to use their body weight when playing) then he also becomes "dog aggressive"????? Or is that more down to his breed??


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> Sorry i'm trying to generally reply to everyone but must have missed this one. I do of course understand that some dogs no matter how you bring them up or train them, will not like other dogs approaching them. However, like you also point out I strongly believe that if everyone avoided direct contact with other dogs then they would have more problems as a result.
> I appreciate your comments as you can see both sides, and (hopefully) can see that i'm not posting maliciously, I just personally cannot see any benefit to purposely minimising a dogs interaction with others. UNLESS you 100% know that they simply do not like other dogs. But like you in that case, I would get the help from a trainer/behaviourist to try and help the problem.
> It sounds awful I know, but often people blame owners who let their dogs socialise (and yes I appreciate that some dogs are too boisterous and in that case I think should be controlled more) for their own dogs snapping and snarling. I personally would not worry about other dogs and their owners, i'd focus on why my dog has a problem. Whether it was something fixable or something manageable.


Well your last couple of sentences is basically what's wrong and says it all really.

"I personally would not worry about other dogs and their owners, I'd focus on why my dog has a problem".

I'll tell you why my bitch doesn't want to socialise. When she was seven months old, she was attacked and beaten up by a pair of offlead Westies. She was extremely traumatised and didn't forget.

I daresay the owner of those Westies wasn't worried about other dogs and their owners.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

My dog is friendly by the way, it doesn't mean he should have to put up with other dogs rushing him barking, jumping all over him, surrounding him, humping him, body slamming him or any of the other things people seem to think acceptable behaviour. And, as others have said, guess which dog is labelled the problem when he tells them to knock it off? Yup, mine. When in reality it's the rude dog who is the problem and mines response has been appropriate. Or it's me labelled rude because I see his early signals, the turning away, the whale eye, the brief lip curl, that the other dog ignores and step in before he needs to roar and snap.

I avoided the places I walk Spen like the plague with my aggressive dog and don't see why anyone would walk an aggressive dog there. Narrow paths, nowhere to go to create space, 99% of dogs off lead and allowed to approach, doesn't exactly make for a relaxing walk. But I don't see why those with no issues who simply don't put up with rudeness shouldn't be walked there. Or why elderly dogs shouldn't be able to enjoy a potter around the park without being injured. It's not those dogs who don't want to "socialise" as people call it who are the problem imo.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Always those who say it's alright she/hes friendly who they label my dog an issue when he's had enough of said dog bouncing off his head, paws on his back, sniffing his back side, and bits, but one warning growl from him suddenly gets him labelled " dog aggressive", strange how people can't see issue with their dogs behavior but like to blame others  and if I did let him off lead, and he scares other dog ( which happens as Rottweilers tend to use their body weight when playing) then he also becomes "dog aggressive"????? Or is that more down to his breed??





Sarah1983 said:


> My dog is friendly by the way, it doesn't mean he should have to put up with other dogs rushing him barking, jumping all over him, surrounding him, humping him, body slamming him or any of the other things people seem to think acceptable behaviour. And, as others have said, guess which dog is labelled the problem when he tells them to knock it off? Yup, mine. When in reality it's the rude dog who is the problem and mines response has been appropriate. Or it's me labelled rude because I see his early signals, the turning away, the whale eye, the brief lip curl, that the other dog ignores and step in before he needs to roar and snap.
> 
> I avoided the places I walk Spen like the plague with my aggressive dog and don't see why anyone would walk an aggressive dog there. Narrow paths, nowhere to go to create space, 99% of dogs off lead and allowed to approach, doesn't exactly make for a relaxing walk. But I don't see why those with no issues who simply don't put up with rudeness shouldn't be walked there. Or why elderly dogs shouldn't be able to enjoy a potter around the park without being injured. It's not those dogs who don't want to "socialise" as people call it who are the problem imo.


Yep. At our club show earlier this month, the amount of owners who allowed their dogs to shove their face in Cash's was quite staggering. Cash did growl at one dog during one particular greeting which was then met with a shocked look on a fellow owner's face and the response of "was that Cash?". I hate that it's always seen as some kind of sin if your dog dares to voice it's displeasure. Luckily the club committee members did then go on to address us all about NOT allowing face to face greetings so at least we're not all clueless 

And yes as you point out @Meezey, those of us with dogs that could be viewed in a negative light have to be extra responsible in terms of dog to dog interactions. Cash, like I said, is quite pushy, and I dare say he'd easily bowl a littlun over in boisterous play. It would be even more irresponsible of me to say 'let them get on with it' and walk away whilst leaving a small dog shook up and stressed at my dog's 'play' style.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I do get annoyed when people say where I should and should not walk my dogs. Occasionally I take them to the park when I can see it's a quiet time and there are many reasons we use the park. Good for distraction and focus training, could be short on time and hence cant spare enough to drive half an hour to a quiet place and actually, these parks have some good facilities. One has a lovely little river running through it so in summer it's one of our main places to visit, and one has some nice woods. We stay out of the way as much as humanly possible but I still feel I have a right to object when we are tucked out of the way, clearly engaging in training or play, and somebody allows their dog to run the length of the park to annoy us, and the dog simply does not get the message to get lost. Or it runs over and then gets shirty about not being welcome. 

Not so long ago we were doing as I described above when a lurcher ran over in a not so friendly manner. It was snapping and circling and my dogs were not happy, one was snapping back yet the lady had no intention of calling her dog away, despite seeing it was hassling us. When I asked her to call it she told me her dog had every right to be on the park, almost as if we dont have that same right. Well, I contribute to society just as much as everybody else. I work and pay my taxes too so nobody is going to tell me I dont have a right to use public spaces. I do not see why I should be relegated to the outskirts, and to the quiet places (which incidentally are often risky places for a lone female walker) when my dogs bother nobody and are fully under control.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

A lot of the 'rude' dog owners don't seem to understand that their dogs is behaving so badly. They may think jumping all over your dog, humping them, putting a paw on the back, is being friendly, when it's actually their dog behaving in a dominant manner. Then when your dog has a growl at the rude dog, then it's your dogs fault for being nasty, apparently.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> My dog is friendly by the way, it doesn't mean he should have to put up with other dogs rushing him barking, jumping all over him, surrounding him, humping him, body slamming him or any of the other things people seem to think acceptable behaviour. And, as others have said, guess which dog is labelled the problem when he tells them to knock it off? Yup, mine. When in reality it's the rude dog who is the problem and mines response has been appropriate. Or it's me labelled rude because I see his early signals, the turning away, the whale eye, the brief lip curl, that the other dog ignores and step in before he needs to roar and snap.


That sums up everything that's wrong with some dog owners in my opinion and its dogs that behave like that who cause dogs with a slightly nervous disposition to tip over into not wanting to interact from then onwards. I am lucky that Duchess, unlike Kerry my previous shepherd is a very confident young lady and the odd bad encounter, and she has had a few in the last 18 months, doesn't dent her confidence.

I think having more than one dog means that they are interaction with their own kind 24/7 so its no big deal if they never have anything to do with other dogs. But Duchess is on her own and I am a firm believer in allowing her to be a dog and meet other dogs when possible. That doesn't mean she is allowed to run up to other dogs willy nilly or greet every dog we see for that matter.

Small dogs are met by invitation only simply because of the size difference, their natural feelings of intimidation at the prospect of meeting this thumping great German Shepherd and because there is always a risk of accidents. Even with bigger dogs if they are on lead a meet is out. If off lead, the body language during their initial approach which must be by mutual consent by both owners and dogs l is carefully observed. If we choose to allow our dogs to meet a slow approach, sidling up to each other for a sniff, a mutual tail wag and calm interaction is a successful meet. Going forward they will hopefully meet each other regularly and form a loose friendship.

Duchess has several friends that she met out and about on walks. If I had a blanket policy of not allowing interaction with strange dogs she would not have any friends at all and I don't think that would be fair to her as a confident, well behaved and friendly young lady who enjoys the company of her own kind. I think with care from both parties, mutual respect on the part of both owners and their dogs along with an ability to recognise the little signs that dogs give off when approaching other strange dogs that alert you to potential problems, dogs can meet strangers perfectly happily.

Sadly too many dog owners simply don't take the time to learn what is acceptable behaviour or how to recognise the signs that dogs in either party are unhappy or just dont care.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

tabulahrasa said:


> The thing is it's worse than that because they're running up to accost a dog who is throwing off every 'leave me alone' signal it knows...so it's more like running up to hug someone who is already shouting, don't touch me I don't like it, repeatedly and just ignoring them and doing it anyway.


So true ! My dogs are fine with calm dogs ambling past and will even exchange a little sniff, but big or bouncy dogs really P them off ! We were walking them on lead last saturday in a busy ( ish ) park, this very handsome bouncy lurcher came hurtling over and started circling them Reena was cowering behind my legs , growling and barking, and Tango was lunging towards him barking and snapping. Hardly giving off welcoming signals. 
The know all owner called over ' you're just making them worse , reacting like that ! ' after we'd asked her to call her dog back . ' he's not nasty, he won't bite !' to which OH sais - ' well, ours will !' ( they wouldn't )
But stupid clever-dick woman doesn't know us or our dogs so why does she think she knows what's best for them ? I was fuming !


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> Sorry i'm trying to generally reply to everyone but must have missed this one. I do of course understand that some dogs no matter how you bring them up or train them, will not like other dogs approaching them. However, like you also point out I strongly believe that if everyone avoided direct contact with other dogs then they would have more problems as a result.
> I appreciate your comments as you can see both sides, and (hopefully) can see that i'm not posting maliciously, I just personally cannot see any benefit to purposely minimising a dogs interaction with others. UNLESS you 100% know that they simply do not like other dogs. But like you in that case, I would get the help from a trainer/behaviourist to try and help the problem.
> It sounds awful I know, but often people blame owners who let their dogs socialise (and yes I appreciate that some dogs are too boisterous and in that case I think should be controlled more) for their own dogs snapping and snarling. I personally would not worry about other dogs and their owners, i'd focus on why my dog has a problem. Whether it was something fixable or something manageable.


But part of 'fixing' a problem like that is to keep them beyond threshold distance so that they're not entrenching that behaviour by practising it and possibly escalating it...walking near but not close to other dogs is part of what you need to do to work on the dog's issue.

It's not an either or thing, while working with a behaviourist the owner will still be avoiding situations that will make their dog react.



Brannybear said:


> Also, like you've said there tends to be this sort of out of control behaviour in busy places, and everyone knows that. So if you had a reactive dog in any way why on earth would you take them to these places and not expect to be bothered by other dogs.
> In most places there are the loveliest of walks where you do not see a soul, and not in a horrid way but anyone with an unsociable dog have plenty of other places to go. Unless of course like you've mentioned, are in the process of training to cope with not so nice walking environments.


Personally I avoid busy places like the plague as it's no fun at all for me, but actually busy places should be fine for everybody to use because if you're in public your dog should be under control.

Brock is too reactive to cope with that sort of environment, but a dog that's fine unless dogs are right in their face absolutely should be ok in a public place as nobody should be in it's face anymore than they should be in mine if I was there without a dog.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

It's so frustrating being told to walk my dog elsewhere when we aren't the ones causing the problem! My dog is on a lead and under control but yet I'm the one who has to make sacrifices.
Our back gate opens into a park that's full of rude, pushy dogs and their irresponsible owners. If we avoid the park and go out the front of my house, we have to walk on narrow pavements being accosted by more rude, pushy dogs and their irresponsible owners on their way to the park.
I don't drive so unless I'm going to throw Phoebe over my shoulder and attempt to carry her for 3 miles to the nearest remote, out of the way place then I simply HAVE to use the park or the pavement or wait until late evening when my OH gets home from work.
Thankfully from 1st October the park gates are locked at 7pm so we have the park to ourselves and can relax and enjoy exercising and training our dog. It's just a shame we're forced to walk in the pitch black and can't see a damn thing because other people refuse to control their dogs.
My dog isn't aggressive in the slightest btw, she's terrified of pushy dogs who don't respect her boundaries. She lies on her back, yelps and pisses all over herself. But sure, who cares, YOUR dog wants to socialise.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2015)

Brannybear said:


> However, like you also point out I strongly believe that if everyone avoided direct contact with other dogs then they would have more problems as a result.


In my experience it's acuatly the exact opposite.
Dogs who have had ample interactions with other dogs often end up having at least one or two bad interactions in there, or simply learn to be magnetized to other dogs, or learn rude/inappropriate interactions... In other words, the odds of them learning something you don't want them to is pretty high.

I would much rather work with a dog who has minimal interactions with other dogs and just needs to learn a thing or two, than work with a dog who has been extensively "socialized" to the point of creating a dog who has issues. There is a lot less to un-do.

Well socialized often ends up being well traumatized. 
As has been mentioned several times on this thread, socialization is grossly misunderstood. I'd much rather no socialization than bad socialization.



Brannybear said:


> I just personally cannot see any benefit to purposely minimising a dogs interaction with others.


The benefit is that if you restrict your dog's interactions to only those dogs who belong to owners you know, who have control, who's dogs have good skills, then you know your dog is going to get great lessons in appropriate dog/dog interactions, and not be put in a position to have to practice inappropriate behaviors or learn to be frightened or overwhelmed by other dogs.

I'm *that* owner. If I don't know you or your dogs, I will call my dogs to me, and I will shoo your dogs away. My dogs don't have issues, in fact they are able to be in all sorts of situations that are not expected of many pet dogs and they handle those situations well. I'd like to keep it that way


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> Also, like you've said there tends to be this sort of out of control behaviour in busy places, and everyone knows that. So if you had a reactive dog in any way why on earth would you take them to these places and not expect to be bothered by other dogs.
> In most places there are the loveliest of walks where you do not see a soul, and not in a horrid way but anyone with an unsociable dog have plenty of other places to go. Unless of course like you've mentioned, are in the process of training to cope with not so nice walking environments.


Why the hell should those of us who have dogs who don't want to socialise with other dogs, be forced to drive into the middle of nowhere, walk our dogs in the middle of the night, or otherwise choose remote places and/or times to walk our dogs, because some clueless idiot of a dog owner can't read their own dog's body language/see what is so wrong with their dog's behaviour misinterprets our dogs' body language when their peaceful walk is disturbed and they simply tell the other dog to sod off?

Some might, (I'm one od those who do) and yes, it makes some sense to choose quieter times to walk the dogs, but why should we be forced to 
A) control our dogs when the He's Friendly brigade cba to control theirs,
B) pass.our driving test purely so that we can drive into the middle of nowhere to walk our dogs when the same spots that are local to the He's Friendly Brigade are equally local to us,
C) it's most often the He's Friendly dog that caused our dogs' issues in the first place?

Why shouldn't the clueless idiotic member of the He's Friendly Brigade seek out new places to walk instead, or actually learn to control their bloody dog so it doesn't upset others? Why is it fair that the He's Friendly Brigade get to be lazy in both ways? (not controlling their dog/s AND getting the nice, local parks and walking spots as well as deciding the popular times for walking their dogs) while those of us who can correctly read canine body language and know that our dog has issues with others thanks to the laziness of the He's Friendly Brigade have to be responsible for our dogs, and theirs?

I have just as much right as the next person to use the local parks and expect to be able to do so safely and peacefully, whether I have my dogs wth me or not.

How about, instead of us whose dogs just want to be left in peace and undisturbed by the He's Friendly dog/brigade having to find new, quieter spots, or walking our dogs at unsociable hours, the He's Friendly Brigade all decide to meet up somewhere not so local and have a play date?

Oh wait ... Because the He's Friendly Brigade will soon find their own dogs being accused of being "vicious" when their own dog/s have enough of all the other "He's Friendly" dogs and starts to do what our dogs do instead ... We wouldn't want that now, would we? Can't be having the average clueless idiotic member of the He's Friendly Brigade being made to face their own irresponsibility now, can we? Poor lamb might have their pride dented and their feelings hurt!
 :Shifty

(Not pointing the finger at any member at ALL here - I'm talking about the average He's Friendly owner).

@Meezey, can I join your less-than-friendly-PF-member group, pretty please?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Here's a lovely picture of Phoebe playing in the park tonight with her light up ball and new light up collar. I just love to see her so happy... except I can't actually see her properly because I'm forced to walk her in the dark. That's the second light up ball too. The first one was pinched a few weeks ago by "he just wants to play" dog who was half a mile behind his irresponsible owner on the beach.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

@Nettles ; which light is the dog, and which is the ball?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> @Nettles ; which light is the dog, and which is the ball?


There was only blue collars left in the pet shop so it's blue dog, red ball  Hmmm.. I can now see a problem arising with the new red light up collar I just ordered for her :Facepalm


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

lol @Nettles I remember pitch black walks well.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Hang on a second, I've already mentioned that most of my walking is done in quiet locations, as it suits us best BUT every so often I find myself in the position where I need to cross a busy park with my dogs in order to get from one place to the other. 

Just because my dogs don't appreciate strange dogs rushing up to them, we still reserve the right to walk through said locations unmolested. Yet it is being claimed that by merely being present in a busy spot, you are in the wrong if you take offence at your dog being pestered?! How does that make sense?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Hang on a second, I've already mentioned that most of my walking is done in quiet locations, as it suits us best BUT every so often I find myself in the position where I need to cross a busy park with my dogs in order to get from one place to the other.
> 
> Just because my dogs don't appreciate strange dogs rushing up to them, we still reserve the right to walk through said locations unmolested. Yet it is being claimed that by merely being present in a busy spot, you are in the wrong if you take offence at your dog being pestered?! How does that make sense?


Well I've been told that if I dn't want my pram peed up I shouldn't take it out in public. Same sort of mentality really, blame the other person for your own lack of control. It's wrong.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well I've been told that if I dn't want my pram peed up I shouldn't take it out in public. Same sort of mentality really, blame the other person for your own lack of control. It's wrong.


My goodness, that is just gross. I'd be bloody mortified if my dog widdled up someone else's pram!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well I've been told that if I dn't want my pram peed up I shouldn't take it out in public


Please tell me I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here? Someone's dog peed on your babies pram and then they actually blamed you? Are you serious? What is wrong with people!!!!!!!!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Please tell me I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here? Someone's dog peed on your babies pram and then they actually blamed you? Are you serious? What is wrong with people!!!!!!!!


Not happened to me yet, I mostly use a sling with Jack at the moment. But it happened to a friend and that's what she was told. And going by a discussion on a FB group about it a while back it seems quite a common opinion, if you don't want your pram (or anything else) peed up then don't take it out in public. Because that's what dogs do, they pee up things. Well if you're in control you can call them away before they pee up things they shouldn't!


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Not happened to me yet, I mostly use a sling with Jack at the moment. But it happened to a friend and that's what she was told. And going by a discussion on a FB group about it a while back it seems quite a common opinion, if you don't want your pram (or anything else) peed up then don't take it out in public. Because that's what dogs do, they pee up things. Well if you're in control you can call them away before they pee up things they shouldn't!


It's also not difficult to teach them what they can and can't pee up. I don't like Scout peeing up anything "man made" really, wheely bins, walls, cars etc, all a no no, so he knows to seek out a patch of weeds/tree/plants and pee up that.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Nettles said:


> There was only blue collars left in the pet shop so it's blue dog, red ball  Hmmm.. I can now see a problem arising with the new red light up collar I just ordered for her :Facepalm


Aww, Red is our colour too, but could only get blue light up collars at the time!
Last winter (we walked early morning, one of the few times I can get him off lead):


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well I've been told that if I dn't want my pram peed up I shouldn't take it out in public. Same sort of mentality really, blame the other person for your own lack of control. It's wrong.


You're kidding right???
I don't even let Muttly pee on Wheelie bins (much as he would like too! to cover the other dog pee on it), as end of the day that is someone's property!


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think some are slightly misinterpreting what @Brannybear actually said. She didn't say those who don't like dogs approaching should avoid the park, but made a valid point IMO that why those of us with DA dogs would choose such walking spots. And again, as I also said in an ideal world we could expect to walk peacefully without being accosted by loose dogs, but that's not going to happen so I think choosing walking spots carefully based on what you/your dogs enjoy is sensible rather than give yourself a headache everyday with the same old experiences of loose dogs.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Muttly said:


> Aww, Red is our colour too, but could only get blue light up collars at the time!
> Last winter (we walked early morning, one of the few times I can get him off lead):
> View attachment 248953


I ordered the red one off amazon  It wasn't an expensive one because she's still growing so flipping fast and will prob grow out of it in no time. But even if it only lasts a few weeks, I'll be happy.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> It's also not difficult to teach them what they can and can't pee up. I don't like Scout peeing up anything "man made" really, wheely bins, walls, cars etc, all a no no, so he knows to seek out a patch of weeds/tree/plants and pee up that.


I agree for the most part. Spen still needs a reminder at times since so many dogs are allowed to pee up things they shouldn't. But I can tell when he's thinking about it and tell him to move on or call him away. I'd be absolutely mortified if he peed up a pram or something. I asked about prams and childrens toys (scooters, bikes etc) when the discussion came up on another group as I was horrified that people thought that anything out in public was fair game. And yep, they confirmed that if these things were in a public place they saw nothing wrong with their dogs peeing up them. It's no wonder dogs end up banned from so many places with attitudes like that.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I've seen dogs pee onto a pile of clothing on the beach, how disgusting and how pathetic that the owner allows the dog to do it and not feel in the least bit concerned about it.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Can someone teach me how to prevent Ty mostly from peeing when and where he wants?  

He absoutley would pee up anything given half the chance.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Ahh peeing up things.....reminder #83 why I prefer bitches to dogs!!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> I think some are slightly misinterpreting what @Brannybear actually said. She didn't say those who don't like dogs approaching should avoid the park, but made a valid point IMO that why those of us with DA dogs would choose such walking spots. And again, as I also said in an ideal world we could expect to walk peacefully without being accosted by loose dogs, but that's not going to happen so I think choosing walking spots carefully based on what you/your dogs enjoy is sensible rather than give yourself a headache everyday with the same old experiences of loose dogs.


Totally. I would think most people with DA or reactive dogs would not want to walk in busy areas anyway as I can't imagine that being fun for either dog or canine.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> I think some are slightly misinterpreting what @Brannybear actually said. She didn't say those who don't like dogs approaching should avoid the park, but made a valid point IMO that why those of us with DA dogs would choose such walking spots. And again, as I also said in an ideal world we could expect to walk peacefully without being accosted by loose dogs, but that's not going to happen so I think choosing walking spots carefully based on what you/your dogs enjoy is sensible rather than give yourself a headache everyday with the same old experiences of loose dogs.


I would never put my right to walk where I wish with my reactive dogs over the need to keep my dogs stress free. There is a park local to me that lots of dogs owners use, all the dogs are off lead, some play with each other, some play ball with their owner, others just work the bushes.

I used to use it when I had non reactive dogs, Any dog that came to say hallo were just greeted with polite lack of interest. I no longer use that area because I no longer have non reactive dogs. The park has not changed, owners still use it everyday, but I have a dog that is unsuitable for that type of environment so as far as I am concerned it is up to me to find somewhere that is suitable.

The other owners are happy with the park, and what it provides for their dogs and while in an ideal world I would still be able to use I am not going to spend my time kicking out and shooing dogs, upsetting owners who in their opinion have a dog with no issues while I have a dog with plenty. It is not about who is right, me with my reactive dog who should be allowed to walk unmolested in any area I like, or those with sociable dogs they love to see making friends down the park.

I have to make a decision based on my dogs needs and right now that decision means walking my dogs away from an area that I know would cause them stress the `I have as much right, people should keep their bloody dogs away` just doesn't come into it. If wishing for an ideal world got me an ideal world that would be great! Until then I am just going to continue to create as an ideal world for my dogs as is in my control to do so.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Can someone teach me how to prevent Ty mostly from peeing when and where he wants?
> 
> He absoutley would pee up anything given half the chance.[/QUOTE
> 
> Teach him a cue and then choose where it is acceptable for him to go. I had an issue when he went to agility and that is how I was taught. When he is off lead in a field he will run from tree to tree to mark as that is what he loves doing. It means though that I can take him round shops without being overly anxious that he will mark when he shouldn't.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Bigby has been pretty good with regards to weeing up against things.. he does every so often wee against the shed but he hasn't done that for weeks! When we're out on a walk he'll only wee on grass


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Thank you @Jobeth. Ty has always been awful for marking and I have tried half heartedly to teach a cue over the years, but to no avail, He's very scent orientated. These days if I am walking him on lead somewhere I tend to just keep walking even if he's showing interest in marking something.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> I think some are slightly misinterpreting what @Brannybear actually said. She didn't say those who don't like dogs approaching should avoid the park, but made a valid point IMO that why those of us with DA dogs would choose such walking spots. And again, as I also said in an ideal world we could expect to walk peacefully without being accosted by loose dogs, but that's not going to happen so I think choosing walking spots carefully based on what you/your dogs enjoy is sensible rather than give yourself a headache everyday with the same old experiences of loose dogs.


Who said we were actually talking about Brannybear telling us we can or cannot walk in parks or busier area? It's the kind of excuse, cop-out I've heard from other owners in person. And I said before, I do walk at unsociable hours and in the back of beyond, but if I'm time-poor and can't take them out for a walk in the back of beyond, why should I, or my dogs have to suffer? Why should the sacrifices be mine, why should it be me that bends over backwards to accommodate (ie, give the He's Friendly Brigade an easy life by allowing them to carry on regardless) rude, obnoxious dogs, when we're all, in theory, governed by the same laws? Laws which include having control over your dogs at all times?


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

labradrk said:


> Ahh peeing up things.....reminder #83 why I prefer bitches to dogs!!


My bitch does full on handstands in order to pee half way up a tree!


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

And where does it end? Should people who are afraid of dogs stay in their houses because "they shouldn't walk where dogs are"? Should kids be restricted to playing on fairgrounds because loose, out of control dogs take up their parks and if child gets knocked over by a large dog that doesn't know its own weight, then presumably it's the parent's fault for letting their child play in an area where there might be offlead dogs? Or is it the local council who is at fault for putting a children's play area in a popular dog walking spot?

I'm not having a go at anyone, here, but come on! If those of us with "dogs with issues" are "at fault" for being forced to walk in busier areas at busier times, then presumably the it's everyone else's fault of they're annoyed or otherwise bothered by out of control dogs, too?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Once I gave up expecting other dog owners to be aware of the needs of anyone around them, or to be willing *or able* to take responsibility for their own dogs' behaviour, my outings with Jack improved markedly.

I now do my best to avoid other people and their dogs for the most part, and allow selective, positive meetings with known owners and dogs, or introductions with calm, well mannered dogs and considerate owners.

I think there is a misunderstanding with many dog owners of what actually constitutes "socialisation". For a large number, that means simply allowing their dog free rein to approach and greet every single dog it meets. So long as their dog eventually comes back when they've had enough and want to leave the park, that's fine - they are "in control" 

Therefore, joining the local park group will suffice. All the owners get to chat, while the dogs "socialise". The younger dogs will quickly get taught by the older ones what is socially acceptable and become model examples of such a strategy. Job done! 

For others it means training their dog to be happy and relaxed in all kinds of environments and to meet/greet certain dogs when the owners deem it to be suitable. To be equally happy running loose in a safe environment with or without their doggie friends, or walking on the lead with other dogs in the vicinity, at a reasonable distance. Learning that it's not acceptable to just run amok and charge up to every other dog it sees, but look to their owner for permission/guidance.

For those owners of "reactive" dogs (which may be caused by fear, aggression, excitement, friendliness, background, history, etc.) their job is made doubly hard when those given free rein are left to do as they please.

IME most dog owners have actually very little control of their dogs and some even allow their dogs free rein simply because they haven't been able to train them to walk nicely on a lead. So rather than have their arms pulled from the sockets, it's just easier to go somewhere where they can release the dog to run loose to use up some energy. Those dogs will eventually tire enough to want to go home for a nap


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

My two dogs are FA towards other dogs because they have been attacked or roughed up at the park a lot and in the street by loose dogs too, they also get barked at ferociously by dogs left in gardens.
I only have to walk 150 yards to the fields , yet it can be a nightmare. Yesterday , a dog I didn't know escaped from a house and ran straight at us and my legs went to jelly . Luckily he was ok .
I worry that Libby chi will be badly hurt or killed and I'm fed up of having to be constantly vigilant. It really gets me down.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2015)

As I've already mentioned, my dogs are not reactive. Breez is a champion dog ignorer to the point that it's actually quite comical to watch her pretend the other dog doesn't exist. If pushed (or humped) she will correct the dog. She has never put a tooth on another dog, but she is big (great dane) and very loud, and very dramatic in her corrections. She recovers quickly, she has ample spoons and it's not a big deal to me or her to have to tell another dog off. 
Unfortunately, other than with like minded dog friends, it ends up being my dog and me who are the "bad guys" when my dog gives an appropriate correction for rude behavior. Apparently she is supposed to tolerate being jumped on, or obsessively licked in the face by "friendly" dogs. And if she doesn't, she is the one with a problem, not the dog who is blatantly invading her space. 

I'm sorry, but I have an issue with that. 
I'm not going to label her reactive when she is responding appropriately to rude behavior. Nor am I going to actively avoid busy places, in fact I seek them out because it's good training for us. But I will continue to shoo dogs away not only to avoid my dogs having to practice correcting other dogs, but also to avoid having to get in a conversation of "no, my dog doesn't have issues, yours does."

Years ago I took Lunar to a doggy get together where I didn't know everyone. His dogs skills were stellar and I quickly let him off leash, keeping an eye on him. As it turns out, there were a few dogs there with poor manners/skills, one of which ran up to Lunar and shoved his nose up Lunar's rear end. Lunar moved away. Twice. The dog kept persisting in keeping his nose roughly planted in Lunar's butt. As I was walking over to remove the dog and protect mine, Lunar took matters in to his own hands, turned to face the dog and growled at him in a very clear message. The dog finally got it and took off to go shove his nose up some other dog's rear end.

The dog's owner wanted to know what was the matter with Lunar. I said there was nothing wrong with my dog, that her dog was being too pushy about sniffing and that Lunar was just letting him know to knock it off. She looked very confused and countered that's how dog's greet each other, they sniff butts. Yeah... there is a cursory polite sniff and then there is canine proctology. Most owners don't get it....


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Can someone teach me how to prevent Ty mostly from peeing when and where he wants?
> 
> He absoutley would pee up anything given half the chance.


Is this on or off the lead?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

LinznMilly said:


> Who said we were actually talking about Brannybear telling us we can or cannot walk in parks or busier area? It's the kind of excuse, cop-out I've heard from other owners in person. And I said before, I do walk at unsociable hours and in the back of beyond, but if I'm time-poor and can't take them out for a walk in the back of beyond, why should I, or my dogs have to suffer? Why should the sacrifices be mine, why should it be me that bends over backwards to accommodate (ie, give the He's Friendly Brigade an easy life by allowing them to carry on regardless) rude, obnoxious dogs, when we're all, in theory, governed by the same laws? Laws which include having control over your dogs at all times?


Sorry, seen as everyone appeared to be quoting Brannybear I assumed it was in response to her comments about avoiding popular walking places, but again, her comments were in regards to those of us with DA dogs, which doesn't;'t apply to the majority of those posting in this thread about simply wanting to avoid other dogs for other reasons.



smokeybear said:


> Is this on or off the lead?


Both, but obviously on lead it's easier to manage as I can keep walking. But he's always been a sod for it! And he goes completely deaf when off lead and catching a scent to mark over too.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I think some are slightly misinterpreting what @Brannybear actually said. She didn't say those who don't like dogs approaching should avoid the park, but made a valid point IMO that why those of us with DA dogs would choose such walking spots. And again, as I also said in an ideal world we could expect to walk peacefully without being accosted by loose dogs, but that's not going to happen so I think choosing walking spots carefully based on what you/your dogs enjoy is sensible rather than give yourself a headache everyday with the same old experiences of loose dogs.


No, she said:


Brannybear said:


> So if you had a reactive dog in any way why on earth would you take them to these places and not expect to be bothered by other dogs.


So in essence yes she did say that 
People with reactive dogs have a right to be allowed into public spaces without being accosted..just because we know it happens it doesn't make it any less of an annoyance...

I think if you read you will notice that everyone on this thread *does *choose quiet times/locations to walk their dogs, again it doesn't stop the "he's friendly" brigade finding you tho.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> No, she said:
> 
> So in essence yes she did say that
> People with reactive dogs have a right to be allowed into public spaces without being accosted..just because we know it happens it doesn't make it any less of an annoyance...
> ...


Nope it certainly doesn't. You can be a nice, quiet location, spot somebody at what you believe to be a safe distance, turn and change direction to make it flaming obvious you are not up for a meet and greet, and still they come. But apparently that's still our fault for being there in the first place!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jazmine said:


> Nope it certainly doesn't. You can be a nice, quiet location, spot somebody at what you believe to be a safe distance, turn and change direction to make it flaming obvious you are not up for a meet and greet, and still they come. But apparently that's still our fault for being there in the first place!


I had a dog run around half a mile across a crop field once to come and bounce all over us...that was my fault for having too much fun with my dog!

Yes they did say that,,,her exact words were "Well if you didn't look like you were having so much fun then mine wouldn't have joined you"


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> No, she said:
> 
> So in essence yes she did say that
> People with reactive dogs have a right to be allowed into public spaces without being accosted..just because we know it happens it doesn't make it any less of an annoyance...
> ...


Which is what I've been saying - that Brannybear's comments were directed at those of us with DA/reactive dogs. And the vast majority of posts since have started with 'my dog isn't reactive BUT' or words to those effect, which wasn't the point Brannybear was making. At least that's the way I've read into her comments anyway.... which again, I find a valid point. I may have the right to walk Missy through a town park, but would it be wise too? No! And whether it's fair or not, the reason would be because of the high chances of being accosted by loose dogs.

I do think threads like this are heavily influenced by what experiences we have when out and about which I think is quite clear based off the opinions Brannybear has and those who do/have encountered bad experiences, have.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Which is what I've been saying - that Brannybear's comments were directed at those of us with DA/reactive dogs. And the vast majority of posts since have started with 'my dog isn't reactive BUT' or words to those effect, which wasn't the point Brannybear was making. At least that's the way I've read into her comments anyway....
> 
> I do think threads like this are heavily influenced by what experiences we have when out and about which I think is quite clear based off the opinions Brannybear has and those who do/have encountered bad experiences, have.


Why does it matter if people state that their dogs are not reactive? Are they not allowed to agree with those of us that do because their dog isn't reactive?

Sorry I don't understand your point, you said that BB did not state something, so I showed you clearly where she did say that something.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Why does it matter if people state that their dogs are not reactive? Are they not allowed to agree with those of us that do because their dog isn't reactive?
> 
> Sorry I don't understand your point, you said that BB did not state something, so I showed you clearly where she did say that something.


Oh god...now I feel I'm being misunderstood.

She said why would you take a reactive/DA dog to a busy walking area, which is a good question, why would you?

She did not say if you don't like being approached by dogs in any shape or form, avoid those areas. Just made a point about reactive/DA dogs. If you ( general you ) wish to avoid other dogs for other reasons than that's perfectly fine. But the reason I picked up on those comments was because it was being made out that Brannybear had insinuated everyone/and anyone not wanting to mix should stay away. Which was not how I read her comments in that post at all.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Oh god...now I feel I'm being misunderstood.
> 
> She said why would you take a reactive/DA dog to a busy walking area, which is a good question, why would you?
> 
> She did not say if you don't like being approached by dogs in any shape or form, avoid those areas. Just made a point about reactive/DA dogs. If you ( general you ) wish to avoid other dogs for other reasons than that's perfectly fine. But the reason I picked up on those comments was because it was being made out that *Brannybear had insinuated everyone/and anyone not wanting to mix should stay away.* Which was not how I read her comments in that post at all.


But the bit in bold is exactly how BB has come across on this thread...essentially it has come across that if you don't want dogs running over to you then you shouldn't walk in busy areas.

BB may not have intended to come across as such but that is how her posts have been read by myself (and others it would seem)...Especially with regards to the comments that we (yourself included in this I guess) made our dogs the way they are because we don't allow them to meet and greet all and sundry


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> But the bit in bold is exactly how BB has come across on this thread...essentially it has come across that if you don't want dogs running over to you then you shouldn't walk in busy areas.
> 
> BB may not have intended to come across as such but that is how her posts have been read by myself (and others it would seem)...Especially with regards to the comments that we (yourself included in this I guess) made our dogs the way they are because we don't allow them to meet and greet all and sundry


Tbh, this is exactly how I have taken it too.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> I had a dog run around half a mile across a crop field once to come and bounce all over us...that was my fault for having too much fun with my dog!
> 
> Yes they did say that,,,her exact words were "Well if you didn't look like you were having so much fun then mine wouldn't have joined you"


Having fun with your dog were you? Honestly, have you no consideration for others whatsoever?!


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> Which is what I've been saying - that Brannybear's comments were directed at those of us with DA/reactive dogs. And the vast majority of posts since have started with 'my dog isn't reactive BUT' or words to those effect, which wasn't the point Brannybear was making. At least that's the way I've read into her comments anyway.... which again, I find a valid point. I may have the right to walk Missy through a town park, but would it be wise too? No! And whether it's fair or not, the reason would be because of the high chances of being accosted by loose dogs.
> 
> *I do think threads like this are heavily influenced by what experiences we have when out and about which I think is quite clear based off the opinions Brannybear has and those who do/have encountered bad experiences, have.*


I can''t say I have bad experiences out and about very often at all, I am mostly very lucky in my walking locations. But it is still something I feel strongly about, regardless of which of my dogs I am out with.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jazmine said:


> Nope it certainly doesn't. You can be a nice, quiet location, spot somebody at what you believe to be a safe distance, turn and change direction to make it flaming obvious you are not up for a meet and greet, and still they come. But apparently that's still our fault for being there in the first place!


 Yup! Also quiet locations can be unsafe and scary. I tolerate men stopping for a pee up a tree but if someone in the bushes , I don't hang about !


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> But the bit in bold is exactly how BB has come across on this thread...essentially it has come across that if you don't want dogs running over to you then you shouldn't walk in busy areas.
> 
> BB may not have intended to come across as such but that is how her posts have been read by myself (and others it would seem)...Especially with regards to the comments that we (yourself included in this I guess) made our dogs the way they are because we don't allow them to meet and greet all and sundry


But I haven't seen her say as such  I just think her posts have been misconstrued at times and others have jumped to conclusions by what she means.

Maybe I'm able to see it differently because I get what she's saying to some extent, and I often share the same opinion which is why I avoid these kind of threads usually.

But, I'm talking for brannybear really, so should really leave it to her to clarify what was meant.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Even though I have a friendly, fairly obedient dog, I usually avoid busy places mainly so I can let Isla off the lead without having to spend the entire time keeping an eye out for other dogs and making sure Isla isn't pestering others. She's pretty good and I can call her back if someone appears, but it's nice just to stroll along peacefully isn't it.
But that's just me who thinks about others.
I think that's a hangover from having a dog who was DA where I actively avoided busy places. Jodi was fine if she was left alone, she wasn't one of those who started barking and growling at dogs from a distance, only those that rushed up to her and wouldn't go away. And that is the whole crux of the matter here, it's those uncaring people who think they are in the right whatever occurs. Who accuse you of having a nasty dog that you haven't trained/socialised properly and they are so marvellous because they have a friendly dog (might be one that ignores them totally though). I know why Jodi was DA and it was nothing to do with poor socialisation and everything to do with idiots who allow their dogs to roam and annoy others.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> She said why would you take a reactive/DA dog to a busy walking area, which is a good question, why would you?


Lots of reasons...
Maybe you didn't know it was going to be as busy as it was. Maybe you were going to do some focus work with your dog and it ended up being way busier than you expected it to be.
Maybe you're new to the area and didn't know this was a busy area, maybe you have been there before on a weekday and it was quiet and didn't realize it would be that much busier on the weekends. 
Maybe its the only way you can get from point A to point B and cutting through this busy area is the only option. 
Maybe you thought your dog was doing well today and took a chance, and were wrong... That happens too...
Maybe your dog is elderly and/or recovering from an injury and this is the only walk they can physically handle right now and you're trying to come at quiet times....

Bottom line, if people would be respectful and responsible, it shouldn't be an issue.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Lots of reasons...
> Maybe you didn't know it was going to be as busy as it was. Maybe you were going to do some focus work with your dog and it ended up being way busier than you expected it to be.
> Maybe you're new to the area and didn't know this was a busy area, maybe you have been there before on a weekday and it was quiet and didn't realize it would be that much busier on the weekends.
> Maybe its the only way you can get from point A to point B and cutting through this busy area is the only option.
> ...


I did actually say in an earlier post



Dogloverlou said:


> As for where DA dogs should walk, in principle I agree with you that you shouldn't walk them through a park and not expect to be approached IMO.....and is the main reason Missy has never set foot in the park Cash visits. But, if such a place is the only available option to an owner they shouldn't be made to feel guilty for walking where they wish. At the end of the day in an ideal world everybody would have control of their dogs at all times and we could expect to walk peacefully. But that will ever happen, so we have to weigh up the pros/cons to choosing walking destinations accordingly.


So get that not everyone can avoid such areas.

But as to your last line,if you expect that from other dog owners then you're always going to be disappointed.

The alternative is surely introducing strict leash laws, or banning dogs from public spaces? Which I would find even more devastating than having the odd loose dog to contend with.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> But the bit in bold is exactly how BB has come across on this thread...essentially it has come across that if you don't want dogs running over to you then you shouldn't walk in busy areas.
> 
> BB may not have intended to come across as such but that is how her posts have been read by myself (and others it would seem)...Especially with regards to the comments that we (yourself included in this I guess) made our dogs the way they are because we don't allow them to meet and greet all and sundry


I apologise if my posts have come across the wrong way, I do know that I'm not the best at putting my point across the right way.
What I meant by that comment, is that if I personally had a dog that was reactive in any way, I would avoid well-known busy dog walking areas. I'm in no way saying all dogs with problems should be banished to a field. Just saying you're setting yourself up for a fall if you walk in a very busy dog area, and surely that is common sense?

In my area we have a lovely nature walk...but it is renowned for dog walkers and is extremely busy at peak times. I have never been purely because of this and my dog is fine with others. I'm just saying don't go to somewhere like this..and then complain that you're approached by another dog 

To me, and from things I have read or been told, is that if you make other dogs 'forbidden' then a dog will have more of a tendency to react to them when they do see them. Does that not make sense?
I think that if I was kept away from all humans, no matter how much fun I was having on my own, I would still be quite pleased to see another and probably go and interact with them?

Again, not sure if i'm getting my point across but none of my comments are intended to start an argument..or receive negative comments


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

I see it from both sides. I have a dog who when younger was a sod for running up to other dogs, so he was 100% onleash only. Now at 3 years old, he has far less interest.
He doesn`t like other dogs who are rude to him. Yesterday we had a Lab run across an entire park length to get to my dog who was pottering around offleash minding his own business. She ran up to him full speed and jumped on his head. He roared at her, snapping at her and chased her for a few steps to make his point. He then walked away and went back to sniffing. The dog ran back to her owner.
Next thing I knew I had an angry man approach me telling me I shouldnt walk my aggressive dog in parks.
IMO he wasnt being aggressive just giving an appropriate correction

It is quite frustrating, but it doesn`t bother me because if he needs it, I will deal with the dog.
I don`t let others dictate my walks, I have every right to walk in the park 10 minutes from my house. If people cba moving their dog away when I ask, I will do it for them.

I`m not rude, I will deal with the dog so mine isn`t pushed into a confrontation. He just wants to sniff and chase his toy not deal with rude, obnoxious dogs.

I did have a weird experience once. A woman came onto the park and cut in front of the route I was doing in the park. I continued following the route with her in front and she turned around and yelled "Stop following me!" LOL I just smiled at her 

If you have a dog who likes to approach other dogs, manage that like I did. I did slip up a few times but I did manage it as best as I could. 
There is a little terrier who walks in the forest near mine, on Monday she ran up to a dog like she always does and she got bitten. She had some pretty bad wounds and had to be dashed into the vets.
For the sake of `socialization' it just isn`t worth it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Brannybear said:


> I apologise if my posts have come across the wrong way, I do know that I'm not the best at putting my point across the right way.
> What I meant by that comment, is that if I personally had a dog that was reactive in any way, I would avoid well-known busy dog walking areas. I'm in no way saying all dogs with problems should be banished to a field. Just saying you're setting yourself up for a fall if you walk in a very busy dog area, and surely that is common sense?
> 
> In my area we have a lovely nature walk...but it is renowned for dog walkers and is extremely busy at peak times. I have never been purely because of this and my dog is fine with others. I'm just saying don't go to somewhere like this..and then complain that you're approached by another dog
> ...


I appreciate your apology 
I do understand your point to a certain degree. I do get that if people go to busy areas then it would be daft to expect everyone to keep their dogs under control...but it shouldn't be like that.

*"if you make other dogs 'forbidden' then a dog will have more of a tendency to react to them when they do see them. Does that not make sense?"*

I do understand your train of thought, however I disagree. It is perfectly possible to train a dog to be dog neutral, dogs have no need to meet and greet every single dog out in the world, they really don't.
I think that maybe you are misunderstanding...when I say that Thai does not get to meet and greet strange dogs, that doesn't mean that Thai does not get to have any dog interactions at all.

Can I ask?
Has your opinion changed about how dogs become reactive after reading several members stories (mine included) about how their dog became reactive/aggressive?


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2015)

Brannybear said:


> To me, and from things I have read or been told, is that if you make other dogs 'forbidden' then a dog will have more of a tendency to react to them when they do see them. Does that not make sense?
> I think that if I was kept away from all humans, no matter how much fun I was having on my own, I would still be quite pleased to see another and probably go and interact with them?


Often things that seem like common sense don't stand up to the evidence. 
I have raised several puppies where their only interactions are with known dogs in planned situations. I know lots of other dogs raised this way. 
Out and about, these dogs are all instructed to leave other dogs alone, and completely ignore them. None of these dogs have turned out to be reactive, or magnetized to other dogs. Quite the opposite.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> And where does it end? Should people who are afraid of dogs stay in their houses because "they shouldn't walk where dogs are"? Should kids be restricted to playing on fairgrounds because loose, out of control dogs take up their parks and if child gets knocked over by a large dog that doesn't know its own weight, then presumably it's the parent's fault for letting their child play in an area where there might be offlead dogs? Or is it the local council who is at fault for putting a children's play area in a popular dog walking spot?
> 
> I'm not having a go at anyone, here, but come on! If those of us with "dogs with issues" are "at fault" for being forced to walk in busier areas at busier times, then presumably the it's everyone else's fault of they're annoyed or otherwise bothered by out of control dogs, too?


Sadly a lot do have this attitude. Don't want pestering by dogs? Then don't go to places where dogs are off lead. Really annoys me. Public spaces are for everyone to use, not just dog owners. And it'll be us dog owners who lose out because of it.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I appreciate your apology
> I do understand your point to a certain degree. I do get that if people go to busy areas then it would be daft to expect everyone to keep their dogs under control...but it shouldn't be like that.
> 
> *"if you make other dogs 'forbidden' then a dog will have more of a tendency to react to them when they do see them. Does that not make sense?"*
> ...


But surely the dogs that Thai does interact with now, were once strange dogs you did not know. I know a lot of dogs have 'friends' that they get to play with, but at some point you would not have known that dog, whether it be a family/friends. I understand as previously mentioned on this thread that these dogs tend to meet in a controlled manner and not just on a walk, but I've met some lovely dogs and owners on walks which I would not have done if I were to avoid them.

It has changed, I know that I've no experience with certain behaviours and agree that if their dog has been attacked etc then there's a valid reason for that dog to be reactive. However I would do my best (again, not having practical experience cannot say I WOULD) to accept that some owners don't have to worry and although rather ignorant of them, can let their dogs socialise off lead.

The thread and it's stories have assured me that if ever someone did purposely cross the road to avoid my dog, or pull them away, or be slightly rude in how they act...most of them are just trying their hardest to protect their ball of fluff that they love. Aren't we all at the end of the day, trying to do what's best for them. Whatever method it may be!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Sadly a lot do have this attitude. Don't want pestering by dogs? Then don't go to places where dogs are off lead. Really annoys me. Public spaces are for everyone to use, not just dog owners. And it'll be us dog owners who lose out because of it.


Of course public spaces are for all to use and it would be lovely if all dogs are under control but the truth is they are not therefore if you go to a busy dog walking area there is a huge chance that your dog will be approached by another either rude or aggressive dog.
It would be rather like telling your children it was ok to cross the road at a certain point where the majority of traffic was going at 40 plus because it was supposed to be a 20mph limit


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

You can meet people in a controlled manner out on walks 

As I have said previously I am one of those that takes my dog off to the side to put in a sit whilst the other dog and owner pass. There have been a few times where the owners (with their dog leashed) have stopped to chat with me whilst they keep their distance, if the dogs are relaxed and both myself and the other owner wish to carry on the interaction then we start to walk together still keeping the dogs at a comfortable distance.
We may then decide to allow the dogs to actually greet (if they are both comfortable), or we may decide to just go our separate ways until next time we meet.

So whilst I avoid most (I have learnt over the years that in general the average dog owner has zero understanding of their dogs behaviour), we still get to meet new people and have a blast on our walks.

I am quite an antisocial dog walker tho, as in, I prefer to concentrate on my dog and spend time with him. Rather than meeting and greeting myself


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Of course public spaces are for all to use and it would be lovely if all dogs are under control but the truth is they are not therefore if you go to a busy dog walking area there is a huge chance that your dog will be approached by another either rude or aggressive dog.
> It would be rather like telling your children it was ok to cross the road at a certain point where the majority of traffic was going at 40 plus because it was supposed to be a 20mph limit


It's not just dog on dog interactions though. People tel runners, cyclists, horse riders, kids etc that they shouldn't go to places where dogs are off lead if they don't want chasing, jumping on etc. That annoys me far more than the odd rude dog that approaches mine in off lead areas.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Muttly said:


> Aww, Red is our colour too, but could only get blue light up collars at the time!
> Last winter (we walked early morning, one of the few times I can get him off lead):
> View attachment 248953


Wow, now that is a picture, lol!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm wondering if we replaced our dogs in this scenario with children, would opinions be different. Several people have said, in a nutshell, that you cant go to a busy public place with a dog and not expect the dog to be approached by other dogs. Can the same be said with children? If we take our children to a park should we expect them to also be approached by strange dogs behaving in the same way? 

I forgot to quote but the impression I got from Brannybear reading their post above is that dogs who are denied interactions with other dogs are more likely to react, whether that be in a good or bad way i'm not so sure since they mentioned being denied human contact but still being pleased to see a human. Anyway, my dogs can go days on end without interacting with any other dogs and it doesnt make them magnetized towards other dogs, thats purely because 2 of them simply arent interested. It's quite amusing to see somebody standing there with their dog when we are approaching, and you can see the joyous anticipation on their face (and that of the dog) that their dog is going to get to play, or say hello. Then their joyous anticipation turns to crestfallen when my lot just walk by and dont even glance their way.

Even as a small puppy at puppy classes Flynn would get very annoyed with the other pups when they tried to play with him and he'd just growl at them grumpily and not interact at all. I've always been able to have him off lead from day one when he was able to go out and he's shown no interest in socialising. From what i've been told, my rescue dog grew up on a farm and saw very little of other humans, other dogs, and the general outside world, her world was the farm and that was it. Again, she has no interest in other dogs despite growing up with probably very little contact. She isnt scared of other dogs, quite the opposite, but has no desire to interact, often actively avoiding them if we pass.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> I'm wondering if we replaced our dogs in this scenario with children, would opinions be different. Several people have said, in a nutshell, that you cant go to a busy public place with a dog and not expect the dog to be approached by other dogs. Can the same be said with children? If we take our children to a park should we expect them to also be approached by strange dogs behaving in the same way?


You would expect them to meet strange children and they would have to deal with that and learn, with parental guidance of course in the case of smaller children, how to interact and share the playground. But you wouldn't tolerate other kids pushing your kids around or being obnoxious.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

cbcdesign said:


> You would expect them to meet strange children and they would have to deal with that and learn, with parental guidance of course in the case of smaller children, how to interact and share the playground. But you wouldn't tolerate other kids pushing your kids around or being obnoxious.


Are you talking about children vs children? I was meaning more children vs dogs, should a parent expect their children to be jumped on by off lead dogs in a busy park?


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Leanne77 said:


> Are you talking about children vs children? I was meaning more children vs dogs, should a parent expect their children to be jumped on by off lead dogs in a busy park?


Good god no, does that happen? I would be mortified if a dog of mine jumped onto a child.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Good god no, does that happen? I would be mortified if a dog of mine jumped onto a child.


As far as I have seen, no, but why doesnt it happen so often? Is it because it's seriously frowned upon and the parents would quite rightly get angry in all probability.

I'm just wondering if there is a differentiation between dogs accosting other dogs, and dogs accosting other park users, and if so, why? I'm simply trying to understand why owners of dogs who prefer to be left alone should expect to be bothered in public spaces.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Good god no, does that happen? I would be mortified if a dog of mine jumped onto a child.


It does. And the attitude is often the same in my experience, take your child to a place where dogs are off leash (not a dog park, just a normal public space such as a park) and you have to expect that they'll be jumped on, knocked down, licked or whatever by dogs.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

cbcdesign said:


> You would expect them to meet strange children and they would have to deal with that and learn, with parental guidance of course in the case of smaller children, how to interact and share the playground. But you wouldn't tolerate other kids pushing your kids around or being obnoxious.


Yep, comparing dogs to children for a minute, we certainly wouldn't keep our kids away from others, or deny them social interactions with children their own age etc. If I took my child to a park I'd expect other children to approach them. All we can do is take sensible precautions and supervise, same with dogs IMO.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> Yep, comparing dogs to children for a minute, we certainly wouldn't keep our kids away from others, or deny them social interactions with children their own age etc. If I took my child to a park I'd expect other children to approach them. All we can do is take sensible precautions and supervise, same with dogs IMO.


So explain if we are going to compare kids to dogs, I have lived a life where I have mixed with lots of different people, from different back grounds and different ideas of what's socially acceptable! Oddly with that I am considered rude and aggressive not a people person  the more people I meet the more I dislike them, oddly that's often what happens when your flooded with social interaction. Same as dogs! You might me 1000's of just wonderful people but those horrible ones tend to have a large part in shaping you.

Many parent try to keep their children away from other children, they wouldn't let their child run wild in a park with children they don't know, they take them to controlled environments with people trained to control their "socialisation" and interactions play school, schools, after school activities, people don't take their kids to the park to play with other kids in most cases! Again its the carefully selected few they allow them to freely socialise with.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> It does. And the attitude is often the same in my experience, take your child to a place where dogs are off leash (not a dog park, just a normal public space such as a park) and you have to expect that they'll be jumped on, knocked down, licked or whatever by dogs.


That's just mad. If I spot any children coming I put Isla on the lead. She is more or less ignoring people these days, but does seem attracted towards children (in a friendly way) so I can't be 100% sure that she woudnt accidently knock a child over as she's pretty big
Most parents appreciate it and thank us, but some are puzzled why we do it, when I explain they are not only thankful but surprised. It seems perhaps that more flattening of children by dogs goes on then I had realised


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Talking about socialisation, when Tess was a puppy my vet did the usual take her out and about and get her socialised with other dogs, horses, and cows.

Now he specifically said horses and cows because me and my friend laughed because there really isn't any cows in fields close by. Horses are tethered anywhere, where there is grass a cob seem to be tethered, at the time. Its not as bad now, horses now are just put on waste ground where local schools were.

Anyway I am sure when my vet was talking about socialising my Tess as a puppy, he really didn't mean with either dog, horse, or cow that I put Tess in to a field with either species and let them get on with it. So I think my vet worded it so, that I thought about the bigger picture and what the word socialisation really means. However, isn't this is what many are doing, letting the dogs get on with it down at the park. Even in a multi dog household interactions are still managed if need be.

Although I do know have in my head images of puppies running wildly in fields with horses and cows!!!!!!


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

You're really missing the point if you think we want our dogs to see other dogs as "forbidden". I want my dogs to be dog neutral, able to walk on by without the need to say hi. Again, I can manage this when I'm out amongst other humans, not sure why for some it's a bizarre concept for our dogs.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think a lot of people are missing the point. It is not acceptable behaviour but it appears to be what happens. Therefore you have to accept that it might happen whether you think it right or not and if you or your dog feel very strongly about it you sadly cannot go where it is likely to happen. In the same way that no doubt there are areas you will not go on your way home after a night out because you are likely to meet people behaving inappropriately. Does not make it right but it is a fact of life.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the point. It is not acceptable behaviour but it appears to be what happens. Therefore you have to accept that it might happen whether you think it right or not and if you or your dog feel very strongly about it you sadly cannot go where it is likely to happen. In the same way that no doubt there are areas you will not go on your way home after a night out because you are likely to meet people behaving inappropriately. Does not make it right but it is a fact of life.


This just about sums up my thoughts on the matter too.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Brannybear said:


> I do have a lack of experience which I have admitted about this topic, and again years do not matter to me. You could have owned dogs 50+ or 1 no amount of experience is going to make a difference I would still have the same opinion as I do now..


I don't know that I'd be so vocal on a thread in which I had no experience of the OP's (in this case me) original question  It's a bit like me contributing to something on breeding, I tend to avoid them. It's all free speech though and you'll get responses.



Brannybear said:


> ...I would get the help from a trainer/behaviourist to try and help the problem.
> It sounds awful I know, but often people blame owners who let their dogs socialise (and yes I appreciate that some dogs are too boisterous and in that case I think should be controlled more) for their own dogs snapping and snarling. I personally would not worry about other dogs and their owners, i'd focus on why my dog has a problem. Whether it was something fixable or something manageable.


Yes, I agree with this and lots of owners on here are very experienced with working with behaviourists. But it helps if other owners who do not have reactive dogs help out a bit. This was my opening question - what do you do with that owner of the dog who is off lead because whilst I do not care what they think of me, I am annoyed that repeatedly we're thwarted.



Brannybear said:


> Also, like you've said there tends to be this sort of out of control behaviour in busy places, and everyone knows that. So if you had a reactive dog in any way why on earth would you take them to these places and not expect to be bothered by other dogs.
> In most places there are the loveliest of walks where you do not see a soul, and not in a horrid way but anyone with an unsociable dog have plenty of other places to go. Unless of course like you've mentioned, are in the process of training to cope with not so nice walking environments.


My dog and I have spent 3 years walking in quiet places where dogs are meant to be on lead by the advice of the signs and local laws. Yet there are the idiots who clearly can't read. However - we did well and Molly was fine with her walks in our local area and my parents village, quiet towns etc. You can read the rest in my OP. It was not a busy place.

Thing is, in most cases, not all (and I am utterly ill qualified to comment on dogs with severe problems), one needs to practice in life situations. You can't always legislate if other dog owners have no respect for space and manners.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Leanne77 said:


> Are you talking about children vs children? I was meaning more children vs dogs, should a parent expect their children to be jumped on by off lead dogs in a busy park?


Yes I am talking about Children vs Children as it struck me that its a fitting analogy in the context of this discussion.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Talking about children, perhaps if we think about it we could learn about how they play from a young age, its very much solitary for much part of their early years. If you peer on to a toddler session you may find what looks like children playing, but what you are actually seeing is although children may talking, even copy one another play is very much in the singular but side by side. Not in each others face. Hence arguments more likely to break out about not sharing.

If only we believed that our dogs would still be sociable, like humans with this limited interaction it would be much better!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

lullabydream said:


> Talking about children, perhaps if we think about it we could learn about how they play from a young age, its very much solitary for much part of their early years. If you peer on to a toddler session you may find what looks like children playing, but what you are actually seeing is although children may talking, even copy one another play is very much in the singular but side by side. Not in each others face. Hence arguments more likely to break out about not sharing.
> 
> If only we believed that our dogs would still be sociable, like humans with this limited interaction it would be much better!


Good points here.

I initially took Isla to training classes when she was a pup, but found the presence of all the other dogs far to distracting for her. All she wanted to do was go and see the other dogs. Now it can be very good for many pups to learn how to behave whilst other dogs are in the clas, good for those that are a bit shy to find out that other puppies are fun, but not for Isla. The attraction of other dogs was so overwhelming to her, that she switched off me and very little would gain her attention nd the lessons were a huge struggle for us and a nuisance for the other people in the class. So I went to one to one classes and that worked far better for her. She learned how to pay attention to me without any distractions. Later we had two to one lessons with the same trainer, with her brother and his owner. Although they were very keen to play with each other, and they were permitted to as a reward for good behaviour, Isla now learned to listen to me with a distracting presence.
Perhaps isolating her for a time was a good thing for her. She still has an all consuming interest in other dogs, but maturity and her early training means I call her away most times.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Blitz said:


> I think a lot of people are missing the point. It is not acceptable behaviour but it appears to be what happens. Therefore you have to accept that it might happen whether you think it right or not and if you or your dog feel very strongly about it you sadly cannot go where it is likely to happen. In the same way that no doubt there are areas you will not go on your way home after a night out because you are likely to meet people behaving inappropriately. Does not make it right but it is a fact of life.


This is what I think too. I don't think it should be like that. But being angry and bitter about it (I'm not calling anyone angry and bitter by the way, merely acknowledging I could easily feel like this if I let it get to me) doesn't change it and just makes me feel bad. Some people (perhaps admirably?) choose to try to educate and change things but to be honest I'm not really a "change the world" kind of girl - not if it involves confrontation anyway. So instead I accept that if I walk in certain places dogs will approach. If my stressy boy is going through a bad patch then we avoid (and yes it excludes me from some lovely convenient walks) and if he's going through a good patch we go but I'm very aware of other dogs and I expect them to approach rather than expecting them not too. Sometimes I do want to stamp my feet and say well sod it I'm going anyway but if I go with that attitude it invariably backfires and I come home in a grump. It does suck that my favourite "longer" morning walk is off the cards as if we walk it before work we always see a large lab that always charges my boy growling and I'm not prepared to let that set him back - it seems unfair that I can't take my well behaved (or at least well controlled) dog there because of one uncontrolled dog but there you go.

The way I see it loose uncontrolled dogs are a fact of life (in some places anyway). You can either:

Accept that's how it is and work around it
Try and educate people through sharing information via reasonable discussion (very admirable, but maybe a losing battle and frankly I use up most of my "talking about difficult subjects with tact" at work, and probably a losing battle). Or educate by having your dog under such wonderful control that they are impressed and just let that speak for itself and you have the quiet satisfaction of a job well done - I'd love to do this but we're not there training wise yet!!!. I think trying to educate people by getting angry probably doesn't work and if anything potentially reinforces in their mind that people who keep their dogs away from others are mad and antisocial (again I'm not labelling anyone as that but saying that's how I imagine your average dog owner might see it).
Go with the unrealistic expectation that no one will approach you and be angry and disappointed
I ensure my dog behaves how I feel he should (which involves NOT approaching dogs unless they are offlead and looking interested) and I work under the assumption that most other walkers are pleasant but a bit ignorant about dog behaviour (gosh that sounds patronising doesn't it?).


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

Brannybear said:


> What I meant by that comment, is that if I personally had a dog that was reactive in any way, I would avoid well-known busy dog walking areas.


Managed to fall behind on this thread, so will have to catch up at another time, but in response to the above - that's what those of us with reactive dogs are doing, and that's what we're saying. We DO walk our dogs at unsociable hours, or in the back of beyond, but sometimes it isn't possible, and in those times that the "hotspots" are the only place to walk our dogs, we have the right to do so without having to deal with out-of-control dogs...

And as Bailey said, if it means I have to send your dog packing to protect my dog, then so be it. Expect the sharp end of my tongue if you even THINK about having a go at me (not you, BB, general you) because you'll receive some home truths that will make Max look like the life and soul of the party!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

LinznMilly said:


> Managed to fall behind on this thread, so will have to catch up at another time, but in response to the above - that's what those of us with reactive dogs are doing, and that's what we're saying. We DO walk our dogs at unsociable hours, or in the back of beyond, but sometimes it isn't possible, and in those times that the "hotspots" are the only place to walk our dogs, we have the right to do so without having to deal with out-of-control dogs...


And in my case where I used to live my front door opened directly onto an off leash hotspot. How on earth do you avoid it then? Bearing in mind i lived in a flat with no garden so HAD to take my aggressive dog out during the day to toilet. Even with Spen it was a pain as although all the dogs were friendly sometimes you just wanted to get out and go for a walk without being mobbed or have him go for a pee and go back inside. With Rupert it was like a bloody military procedure just getting him out for a pee!

And again, it wasn't just the dogs approaching my dog that was an issue. They were a nuisance to people without dogs too.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarahliz100 said:


> This is what I think too. I don't think it should be like that. But being angry and bitter about it (I'm not calling anyone angry and bitter by the way, merely acknowledging I could easily feel like this if I let it get to me) doesn't change it and just makes me feel bad. Some people (perhaps admirably?) choose to try to educate and change things but to be honest I'm not really a "change the world" kind of girl - not if it involves confrontation anyway. So instead I accept that if I walk in certain places dogs will approach. If my stressy boy is going through a bad patch then we avoid (and yes it excludes me from some lovely convenient walks) and if he's going through a good patch we go but I'm very aware of other dogs and I expect them to approach rather than expecting them not too. Sometimes I do want to stamp my feet and say well sod it I'm going anyway but if I go with that attitude it invariably backfires and I come home in a grump. It does suck that my favourite "longer" morning walk is off the cards as if we walk it before work we always see a large lab that always charges my boy growling and I'm not prepared to let that set him back - it seems unfair that I can't take my well behaved (or at least well controlled) dog there because of one uncontrolled dog but there you go.
> 
> The way I see it loose uncontrolled dogs are a fact of life (in some places anyway). You can either:
> 
> ...


Great post, I agree.

As much as I do have the right to walk without being pestered, and as much as the truly out of control dogs do wind me up, I try not to let it get to me. I often read on here of people having slanging matches and confrontations with other dog owners on a frequent basis and frankly, it sounds exhausting. Certainly there are plenty of times when I could do the same due other peoples selfish actions, but I think what is the point? you can't change people or the way they (and their dogs) behave but you can control the way you behave and the way you handle your dog.

I think when you are in the minority you have to accept that the majority aren't going to follow your way or even understand it. So I expect nothing thus I can't be disappointed. It also means I'm occasionally surprised and that there are a good deal of courteous dog owners out there - it's just that we seem to focus on the bad


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Good god no, does that happen? I would be mortified if a dog of mine jumped onto a child.


Yep, all the time and people running or cycling, some people really do think if it's somewhere where dogs are generally offlead then their dog can just pretty much do what it likes.



cbcdesign said:


> Yes I am talking about Children vs Children as it struck me that its a fitting analogy in the context of this discussion.


Children are heavily supervised though, if your small child runs up to another one and jumps on it enthusiastically then there's no way you'd get away with saying, oh, he's just being friendly, rofl.

If the just being friendly dog owners raised children the same way, you wouldn't have well socialised children...you'd have children with no idea how to appropriately initiate play or follow social conventions.

Socialisation in children isn't just do what you want with the other children, it's modelling social behaviours and intervening to correct inappropriate ones.

It's not hugely different too training a dog.



labradrk said:


> Great post, I agree.
> 
> As much as I do have the right to walk without being pestered, and as much as the truly out of control dogs do wind me up, I try not to let it get to me. I often read on here of people having slanging matches and confrontations with other dog owners on a frequent basis and frankly, it sounds exhausting. Certainly there are plenty of times when I could do the same due other peoples selfish actions, but I think what is the point? you can't change people or the way they (and their dogs) behave but you can control the way you behave and the way you handle your dog.
> 
> I think when you are in the minority you have to accept that the majority aren't going to follow your way or even understand it. So I expect nothing thus I can't be disappointed. It also means I'm occasionally surprised and that there are a good deal of courteous dog owners out there - it's just that we seem to focus on the bad


I moan on here about PITA dog owners, in RL, I say nothing...I still end up in arguments because

I 'shouldn't have a dog like that out', even though he's on lead, muzzled, I've moved 20 feet off the path and am standing in a patch of nettles so as not to get in their way.

I 'should let him off lead', I've 'caused him to be aggressive' by not letting him attack other dogs you see.

I've had abuse because he's barked once at their off lead dog, who was across the road from them about how I should train my dog, even though I hadn't so much as looked at them because I was too busy in fact trying to train my dog.

I've also had abuse for crossing the road and successfully stopping him from reacting because the owner had an issue with me avoiding his dogs...it was hard to tell, but I think the issue was that he thought I was keeping my large dog away from his chihuahuas, when actually I was just avoiding any dogs.

Mostly I meet perfectly courteous people, but when I end up in an argument it's not me who started it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

tabulahrasa said:


> Yep, all the time and people running or cycling, some people really do think if it's somewhere where dogs are generally offlead then their dog can just pretty much do what it likes.
> 
> Children are heavily supervised though, if your small child runs up to another one and jumps on it enthusiastically then there's no way you'd get away with saying, oh, he's just being friendly, rofl.
> 
> ...


Ahh that's different then........I've not experienced that sort of thing. If they caught me on a good day I'd probably ignore it. On a bad day, watch out!


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2015)

tabulahrasa said:


> Socialisation in children isn't just do what you want with the other children, it's modelling social behaviours and intervening to correct inappropriate ones.


Yep... I've raised people and I've raised dogs, and with both I try to teach appropriate interactions.

I've never seen a toddler show up at the playground and run up to some random kid and throw their arms around them and/or demand they play with them. 
If you watch how toddlers and young kids interact, you'll notice that much of it is simply sharing space but not really interacting. One kid might watch another kid push the truck through the sand and that kid may decide to push her truck the same way, but if the kid ran over and took the truck from the kid, guaranteed that would be an issue and the adult would intervene and show the kids how to do that interaction appropriately.

Nobody is advocating keeping dogs completely isolated.

What I'm saying is that socialization is not about interactions. It's about going to the park, seeing that there are other dogs there, and just hanging out noticing the other dogs. If appropriate, the dogs can interact, but if not, puppy needs to learn that she can sit there and not have to jump in and join every single thing going on.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> And in my case where I used to live my front door opened directly onto an off leash hotspot. How on earth do you avoid it then? Bearing in mind i lived in a flat with no garden so HAD to take my aggressive dog out during the day to toilet. Even with Spen it was a pain as although all the dogs were friendly sometimes you just wanted to get out and go for a walk without being mobbed or have him go for a pee and go back inside. With Rupert it was like a bloody military procedure just getting him out for a pee!
> 
> And again, it wasn't just the dogs approaching my dog that was an issue. They were a nuisance to people without dogs too.


This is how I feel too. We can't leave our house without "he's friendly" pain in the arses bouncing round us. I feel very lucky that we have an enclosed back garden for Phoebe to go to the toilet. I really don't know how you coped!
We've had the odd pain in the arse squeeze underneath our back gate to "play" with Phoebe, but it was ok, they're friendly and should be entitled to socialise


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

It seems my expectations are obviously very different to a lot of other people's.
I do EXPECT to be able to leave my house without being pestered by someone's dog.
I don't allow my dog to approach anyone so I do EXPECT to be paid the same courtesy.
I do EXPECT other owners to have control of their dogs in a public space. It's the law.
I do EXPECT to be able to train my dog in a public space without a pain in the arse interrupting me.
Maybe keeping quiet and putting up with it might suit some people, but if someone is rude or disrespects me, I will say something and by allowing your dog to bounce round me is rude and disrespectful. Therefore, for me, I feel better confronting them and telling them to get control of their pain the arse, than walking on and ignoring the fact that they're breaking the law. I couldn't really care less if they think I'm rude or over reacting, I'm there to walk my dog, not make friends.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Personally I don't think my expectations are unreasonable. To be able to walk down the street without having loose dogs run up to us. If I go to off leash areas I expect dogs to approach, it's not ideal but it happens, but on the streets and in on leash areas I do not. And yes, I will say something when that happens. Especially when I had Rupert as it was such a huge problem to have a dog approach him and I'd purposely stayed away from off leash areas to try to avoid it. There are more than enough off leash areas round here, no need to have your dog off in the street or on leash parks, let those of us with reactive dogs use those without worry.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

I'm happy enough to avoid the park with mine, I accept that there will be a lot of off lead dogs.

I don't accept that our local nature reserve has had to remove the sheep because off lead dogs were chasing/attacking and killing them, because their owners were ignoring the massive signs stating that ALL dogs MUST be kept on a lead and under strict control at ALL times.
It was a "friendly" off lead lead dog who pinned Bradley down at the reserve, and the owner said it was because Brad was on a lead. Now I don't take Bradley there anymore, so his world is a bit smaller because I'm having to bow down to the group of people who just will not put their dog on a lead for a few minutes.

One of my neighbours has recently taken their sons dog on again, he's a big bouncy thing and rarely on a lead and left to bounce around the street when the guy is at his car, so should I not take my dogs out in case they spoil his fun?

I wouldn't jump on random people and poke them in the face until they play, so I don't see why it's so unreasonable that people keep their dogs away unless you've said otherwise.

It's sad that no one seems to have any respect for anything.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Nettles said:


> It seems my expectations are obviously very different to a lot of other people's.
> I do EXPECT to be able to leave my house without being pestered by someone's dog.
> I don't allow my dog to approach anyone so I do EXPECT to be paid the same courtesy.
> I do EXPECT other owners to have control of their dogs in a public space. It's the law.
> ...





Sarah1983 said:


> Personally I don't think my expectations are unreasonable. To be able to walk down the street without having loose dogs run up to us. If I go to off leash areas I expect dogs to approach, it's not ideal but it happens, but on the streets and in on leash areas I do not. And yes, I will say something when that happens. Especially when I had Rupert as it was such a huge problem to have a dog approach him and I'd purposely stayed away from off leash areas to try to avoid it. There are more than enough off leash areas round here, no need to have your dog off in the street or on leash parks, let those of us with reactive dogs use those without worry.





Gemmaa said:


> I'm happy enough to avoid the park with mine, I accept that there will be a lot of off lead dogs.
> 
> I don't accept that our local nature reserve has had to remove the sheep because off lead dogs were chasing/attacking and killing them, because their owners were ignoring the massive signs stating that ALL dogs MUST be kept on a lead and under strict control at ALL times.
> It was a "friendly" off lead lead dog who pinned Bradley down at the reserve, and the owner said it was because Brad was on a lead. Now I don't take Bradley there anymore, so his world is a bit smaller because I'm having to bow down to the group of people who just will not put their dog on a lead for a few minutes.
> ...


If I couldn't get out of my front gate without getting accosted then that would irritate me too. So does dogs offlead where they explicitly shouldn't be.

Perhaps I'm lucky where I live in that I genuinely think that (perhaps bar the park where many people seem to go especially to have their dog play with others) rude/inappropriate/overly in your face dogs are the exception rather than the rule. For the most part it's cautious approach, quick sniff, move on.

I kind of see that a bit like the fact that round here most walkers will greet each other with a smile and "good morning" or such like. I wouldn't be impressed another person charged over from the other side of a field to bug me, I would be alarmed if they felt the need to take my hand or give me a hug, and I might get a bit irritated if they held me up for ages waffling at me. However a friendly smile and nod/greeting from someone passing me just seems pleasant. If I saw someone head down, earphones in, or otherwise radiating "I'm not feeling social" I wouldn't stop them and insist they say hello I'd just pass on by leaving them be. This is kind of how I (maybe wrongly) see it with dogs where we are. If we are passing in the immediate vicinity of another dog and they acknowledge each other and are mutually interested in a quick hello - great. If one is radiating "leave me alone" vibes then no, meeting is not cool. Neither is overstaying your welcome. My simplistic views anyway!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sarahliz100 said:


> Perhaps I'm lucky where I live in that I genuinely think that (perhaps bar the park where many people seem to go especially to have their dog play with others) rude/inappropriate/overly in your face dogs are the exception rather than the rule. For the most part it's cautious approach, quick sniff, move on.


To be honest, they're the exception rather than the rule here too. Where I walk Spen we meet a lot of dogs and off the top of my head I can recall 2 being a problem. On another occasion Spen got snapped at but he'd run over to say hello and the other dog simply told him to go away, the other 2 occasions the dogs had approached him and snapped at him simply for being there. And on both occasions I got "oh he can be a bit funny with other dogs". So why allow them to approach other dogs then??? I didn't make a big deal out of it as no harm was actually done but it does irritate me as this is exactly the sort of thing that causes problems with less confident dogs. A sniff and move on is normal where we walk, I accept it and it doesn't bother me. In fact I choose to walk where I do because of it, it means I feel less like a failure if Spen does approach another dog although I do still try not to let him without permission.

With Rupert though a sniff and move on, no matter how appropriate, was too much to handle. And to be fair, no dog with decent social skills should approach a dog like Rupert so it was always the rude, in your face or aggressive ones that did so. In on leash areas. Which obviously didn't help me teach him that he had no reason to be worried by other dogs. It really, really angered me to have put in so much work only to have it all go down the drain because some f*ckwit couldn't be bothered to use a leash.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Brannybear said:


> But surely the dogs that Thai does interact with now, were once strange dogs you did not know. I know a lot of dogs have 'friends' that they get to play with, but at some point you would not have known that dog, whether it be a family/friends. I understand as previously mentioned on this thread that *these dogs tend to meet in a controlled manner and not just on a walk*, but I've met some lovely dogs and owners on walks which I would not have done if I were to avoid them.
> 
> It has changed, I know that I've no experience with certain behaviours and agree that if their dog has been attacked etc then there's a valid reason for that dog to be reactive. However I would do my best (again, not having practical experience cannot say I WOULD) to accept that some owners don't have to worry and although rather ignorant of them, can let their dogs socialise off lead.
> 
> The thread and it's stories have assured me that if ever someone did purposely cross the road to avoid my dog, or pull them away, or be slightly rude in how they act...most of them are just trying their hardest to protect their ball of fluff that they love. Aren't we all at the end of the day, trying to do what's best for them. Whatever method it may be!


All Muttly's friends (bar my parents girls) he has met on a walk, they were random dogs that the owners, after seeing me try to divert and get Muttly's attention to me have said "Does he want to meet mine?" 
I can then asses their dog quickly, sometimes I say no thank you, if It looks like their dog won't tolerate him. But if ok, they can then meet in a controlled manner and I can tell them how excitable he is at first. I could not have Muttly running up any old dog that doesn't want to meet him and him getting in their face, they could be a million reasons why not, apart from the fact it's bloody rude! They could be old/recovering from op/ill/shy/just not want to bloody meet him!

These are the only circumstances I will allow him to meet other dogs and it doesn't happen often. Infact the other week we saw 2 very mouthy Jack Russells and the owners said "Oh he can come and meet them" I could tell from their body language (and the way the owner said it) that they were a match for Muttly, in that they were equally excitable which may end in a scrap. 
Muttly generally will be pushy and over the top with the same size or smaller dogs. I don't like to use the word 'dominant' but this is what it looks like and he won't take no for an answer.

But he has a few friends locally that he can play with and he is being trained to know he doesn't interact unless I say so, bad manners or not aside! So I expect the same courtesy from other owners, and get especially pissed off with the ones that allow their dog to come over to an on lead dog when they can see I want to avoid them.

The ONLY reasons I like Muttly off lead when I can tbh, is it's easier to play chase with him and not get tangled and he can have a bit more freedom to sniff and run. Apart from that, he's fine on a long flexi. IF we see another dog, he is called back to me.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Sarahliz100 said:


> If I couldn't get out of my front gate without getting accosted then that would irritate me too. So does dogs offlead where they explicitly shouldn't be.
> 
> Perhaps I'm lucky where I live in that I genuinely think that (perhaps bar the park where many people seem to go especially to have their dog play with others) rude/inappropriate/overly in your face dogs are the exception rather than the rule. For the most part it's cautious approach, quick sniff, move on.
> 
> I kind of see that a bit like the fact that round here most walkers will greet each other with a smile and "good morning" or such like. I wouldn't be impressed another person charged over from the other side of a field to bug me, I would be alarmed if they felt the need to take my hand or give me a hug, and I might get a bit irritated if they held me up for ages waffling at me. However a friendly smile and nod/greeting from someone passing me just seems pleasant. If I saw someone head down, earphones in, or otherwise radiating "I'm not feeling social" I wouldn't stop them and insist they say hello I'd just pass on by leaving them be. This is kind of how I (maybe wrongly) see it with dogs where we are. If we are passing in the immediate vicinity of another dog and they acknowledge each other and are mutually interested in a quick hello - great. If one is radiating "leave me alone" vibes then no, meeting is not cool. Neither is overstaying your welcome. My simplistic views anyway!


It might be a simplistic view, but it's the most respectful one for all involved. For me, that would be the ideal walk!
Phoebes puppy trainer taught us that a well controlled doggy hello should last no longer than 3 seconds and that's only if BOTH dogs actually want to greet.
Hi.. Sniff.. Bye.
I would be more than happy with that, as would Phoebe.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> You can meet people in a controlled manner out on walks
> 
> As I have said previously I am one of those that takes my dog off to the side to put in a sit whilst the other dog and owner pass. There have been a few times where the owners (with their dog leashed) have stopped to chat with me whilst they keep their distance, if the dogs are relaxed and both myself and the other owner wish to carry on the interaction then we start to walk together still keeping the dogs at a comfortable distance.
> We may then decide to allow the dogs to actually greet (if they are both comfortable), or we may decide to just go our separate ways until next time we meet.
> ...


You are me!
I could of written the same thing myself 
Sometimes I'm happy to chat, but once I did actually change my walk times because I didn't want to walk and talk to this bloke every day :Shy


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

The other big thing for me is a simple apology.

Everyone makes mistakes from time to time, so if a dog runs up to us with the owner trying their best to call him/her away and making it clear they don't find their dogs behaviour appropriate, then it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Phoebe is one of those pain in the arse dogs that would bounce around in another dogs face if I let her (she has a bloody cheek when she doesn't like it happening to her!) So if I were to misjudge the situation, not see the other dog quick enough, or she blew her recall, I would be absolutely mortified and be apologising profusely.

It's the people who think it's acceptable to allow their dog to behave like that because "he's friendly" "he only wants to play" "he has to socialise" and my dog should either suck it up or go elsewhere that irritate me.


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## Blaise in Surrey (Jun 10, 2014)

If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....

If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).

What do/would you do please?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

If my dog is off lead and I see an on lead dog approaching my dog goes on lead. Saves any hassle that way. And I hated it when people would say "oh he'll just go past" because 9 times out of 10 it didn't just go past at all.

If I've dropped the ball and missed my chance I do call out that he's friendly as I hurry over to get him, it may or may not put their minds at rest. I also apologise.


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## Brannybear (Apr 16, 2015)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


If mine is offlead and I know i'm going to be passing an on lead dog, he'll be called back and put on lead. If I was caught by surprise round a corner, i'd apologise, say he's no trouble and will literally just sit and look at them walk past, but he'll still be put back on lead.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


These are the situations that annoy me  they should out of respect put their dog back on lead. I am not one to say nothing ( bet you couldn't guess) in our situation most people put their dogs on lead when they see ours, I also tend to put ours on lead even if the approaching dog is left off lead. I was in England when Cian was young, we were out with this brother and my friends older Rottweiler bitch and her old male, all 4 dogs off lead, when a couple approached with a Springer we called our lot to heel to put their leads on when couple shouted you are find he's a pup great with other dogs.... Our boys were just 6 months at the time.. All four Rottweilers passed the couple and dog without a second glance, when the Springer whipped round and piled in to the middle of them like a dog possessed teeth all over the place..... He was lucky our dogs were so easy going... The owner then said oh he can be funny with some dogs, and the proceeded to start giving her dog a hiding, I went ballistic at her, she put her dog in that position, it was their fault they knew he had reacted to some other dogs, yet they chose to tell us he was fine and leave ours off.... Poor dog was lucky ours didn't react.... But that's why I am not going to let my dogs greet random dogs, given my breed if they did react I'd lay money on who was to blame, even if it was the "friendly" dogs ill manners that caused it, so I will say and keep saying that people should have their dogs uncontrol, might make for a harder life but guess what, most people will put their dogs on lead when they see us if we have had the conversation previously) and I always thank them, not just a "keyboard warrior" :Finger


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


Muttly is not offlead, but if he was, he would be called back to my side, as I wouldn't want him approaching the on lead dog.
Same as over the sports centre where we go, he is on his flexi, but when other people come the other way on the paths, he's told to move to this side, or come to me.
If a dog is heading towards us on a thin path, I get Muttly in a sit, right next to me or between my legs.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


On a narrow path, I would always always put my dog back on lead, although I don't tend to let mine off in this sort of environment anyway. In this situation approaching another on lead dog, typically I'll stop and hold close to me either by the lead or collar and let the other person past. In an area where I could put space between us, again it would either be back on the lead or walking to heel off lead.



Meezey said:


> These are the situations that annoy me  they should out of respect put their dog back on lead. I am not one to say nothing ( bet you couldn't guess) in our situation most people put their dogs on lead when they see ours, I also tend to put ours on lead even if the approaching dog is left off lead. I was in England when Cian was young, we were out with this brother and my friends older Rottweiler bitch and her old male, all 4 dogs off lead, when a couple approached with a Springer we called our lot to heel to put their leads on when couple shouted you are find he's a pup great with other dogs.... Our boys were just 6 months at the time.. All four Rottweilers passed the couple and dog without a second glance, when the Springer whipped round and piled in to the middle of them like a dog possessed teeth all over the place..... He was lucky our dogs were so easy going... The owner then said oh he can be funny with some dogs, and the proceeded to start giving her dog a hiding, I went ballistic at her, she put her dog in that position, it was their fault they knew he had reacted to some other dogs, yet they chose to tell us he was fine and leave ours off.... Poor dog was lucky ours didn't react.... But that's why I am not going to let my dogs greet random dogs, given my breed if they did react I'd lay money on who was to blame, even if it was the "friendly" dogs ill manners that caused it, so I will say and keep saying that people should have their dogs uncontrol, might make for a harder life but guess what, most people will put their dogs on lead when they see us if we have had the conversation previously) and I always thank them, not just a "keyboard warrior" :Finger


Anyone who lets their dog approach 4 on lead Rotties is pretty feckin' stupid and that is an understatement! although like most dog owners they could probably not recall the dog anyway. And as you say, it will always be the big nasty Rottweilers that get the blame regardless of who started it.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

A couple of our regular walks. Not much space on the paths when passing and with the river on one side there's not really anywhere to go to create space. Unless you fancy climbing a tree or going for a swim. Dogs tend to have a sniff as they pass each other and go about their business. Owners say hello and carry on with their walk. It's very rarely an issue. I would imagine the woman I saw not too long ago with a group of 6 clearly unfriendly dogs found herself having lots of issues though. Why anyone with one reactive dog would choose to walk there is beyond me let alone why anyone would take 6! It can't have been a pleasant walk.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> View attachment 249037
> View attachment 249036
> 
> 
> A couple of our regular walks. Not much space on the paths when passing and with the river on one side there's not really anywhere to go to create space. Unless you fancy climbing a tree or going for a swim. Dogs tend to have a sniff as they pass each other and go about their business. Owners say hello and carry on with their walk. It's very rarely an issue. I would imagine the woman I saw not too long ago with a group of 6 clearly unfriendly dogs found herself having lots of issues though. Why anyone with one reactive dog would choose to walk there is beyond me let alone why anyone would take 6! It can't have been a pleasant walk.


Looks lovely Sarah, no way would I be able to walk there with mine! The days of being able to walk anywhere without issue have gone. I do actually walk down a vey narrow path to get to where I want to be but it is short and even without dogs if I was to met anyone I would have to go back because no room to pass anyway. Nobody seems to like that particular walk but on the very few occasions I have met someone I always go back to where it widens so I can get my dogs well out of the way.

Your comment about why anyone would chose to walk a reactive dog in such an area is one I share about taking my dogs to the well used park. I know my dogs are likely to get stressed there so I avoid it, yes I can spend my time screaming and swearing and drop kicking dogs back to their owner. I may go home feeling happy that I have sorted a few owners out and told them what I think of them but my dogs are not going to be having a happy time of it and that at the end of the day is all I care about.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> View attachment 249037
> View attachment 249036
> 
> 
> A couple of our regular walks. Not much space on the paths when passing and with the river on one side there's not really anywhere to go to create space. Unless you fancy climbing a tree or going for a swim. Dogs tend to have a sniff as they pass each other and go about their business. Owners say hello and carry on with their walk. It's very rarely an issue. I would imagine the woman I saw not too long ago with a group of 6 clearly unfriendly dogs found herself having lots of issues though. Why anyone with one reactive dog would choose to walk there is beyond me let alone why anyone would take 6! It can't have been a pleasant walk.


I have 3 very friendly dogs, who have great recalls , but I won't take my lot on that kind of walk unless they were on lead, I again would say hello and carry on  Which is fantastic, but then you get those who allow their dog off lead on that type of walk, then they allow their dogs to bound up ahead of them, and can't recall them, but again it's my fault for walking my perfectly friendly dogs there on lead? This is the bit I don't understand why people think we should just accept it or walk somewhere else? I'm not going too, and I think those that do, allow people to continue to have ill mannered dogs running riot, simply because no one challenges them on it, and why dog laws are becoming increasingly popular and dogs less and less so...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I could understand walking down a narrow path if it's the only way/by far the quickest way to get somewhere but as far as I'm aware neither of these really are. Not enough that I'd risk walking an aggressive dog there anyway.

Spen is often off leash in these areas. The paths are narrow but in a lot of places you can see a good distance so if it's not overly busy I let him off on those bits and call him back before any corners or if we see someone coming. On the more winding parts he's on a flexi or if there are horses in the fields or it's unusually busy (we try to walk at quiet times but sometimes we're caught out).


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Dunno why as much as I yell they are friendly people never seem to believe me......








guess that should be their problem not mine.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

@Meezey Devil dogs they are! Get yourself a nice Labrador instead, problem solved. Everyone knows they can't possibly be aggressive.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Meezey said:


> Dunno why as much as I yell they are friendly people never seem to believe me......
> 
> View attachment 249038
> guess that should be their problem not mine.


What even with the big Cian smile?? Bless him, he's my favourite


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


I'd do what I do anyway on seeing a dog - recall and put them on lead. If I noticed the dog was nervous, I'd give the dog and its owner as much space as possible as we pass, or step off the path and put the dogs in a Sit-Wait/Sit-Watch Me while the other dog and owner passed.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


I always call her back and put her on her lead whether the other dog is on lead or not. I don't trust the other owner to be in control and I don't trust Phoebe not to behave like a pain in the arse


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

We've had more problems with off lead dogs not on walks than on this week. OH nearly got savaged by neighbour's new dog that was on the drive off lead, saw him (first encounter) and flew at him back up, snarling, he said he braced himself for a bite but dog got distracted smelling his trousers :Shamefullyembarrased - they obviously smelt of our dogs. After it had checked out our garage and come back at him growling again he walked across to neighbour's door so dog followed enabling her to get it indoors. Thankfully we weren't taking our dogs out to the car on our drive as two of mine would have gone back at it resulting in a disturbance which no doubt the rottie would have got the blame for. On a walk we also had a very whizzy little dog try to jump into the back of the car with my lot :Jawdrop then try to jump on my back seat with his muddy paws. Both episodes entirely avoidable if people used their leads.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Muttly said:


> What even with the big Cian smile?? Bless him, he's my favourite


Even with that, even "dog people" are wary when first meeting him  but I understand that and respect it, he is a friendly dope on a rope, but he's also a big powerful lad, and I get that people don't believe that he's friendly and loves dogs and people, and I will protect him at all costs, so he stays on lead, we do sit and wait for other dogs to pass, and I do get annoyed when other people can't or won't control their dogs round all 3 of them


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

On a very narrow pathway especially one that has poor vision ahead, Isla would be on a lead. In an area such as @Sarah1983 pictures, there's a fairly good chance she would be offlead unless there was any muddy ditches about.. If people with dogs should come towards us her recall is good enough, and she would be on the lead or held by her collar or harness and put into a sit to one side to allow people and their dogs to pass. It's called being polite. I believe.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I'm kinda on the other end now, when we see any dog I call him away, but for my point say it was a GSD (as we see a few of these) I call Muttly back and keep him close. I think that gets people's backs up straight away, because they always go "It's fine, he's friendly" in kind of tone of 'what you calling yours away for' 
I really hate it, because I don't want people to think "oh for god's sake, just cos he's big he wont eat your little Chi" but it is sooo not for that reason :Sorry Muttly actually prefers bigger dogs, bigger the better. But as Siskin says, it's manners for one!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


Generally, having 3 dogs, it is much easier for me to call mine back, move them over and make them wait out of the way, and allow the on lead dog to pass us by. If at all possible that is what I do, and if the other person looks unsure about what to do (should they wait etc) then i'll just tell them they are fine to go past us. If thats not possible then i'll move mine to the offside of me, call them to heel and walk past, I dont actually put them on a lead, although I may hold collars as we pass.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Dunno why as much as I yell they are friendly people never seem to believe me......
> 
> View attachment 249038
> guess that should be their problem not mine.


KT looks like she's strutting her stuff on a catwalk 
Looking at the pic again, she looks like she's embarrassed by her big brother  "who him? Nope never seen him before in my life"


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


When my dogs have to pass another dog who is on lead I will put little one on lead for two reasons. 1 she may try to sniff other dog for a second bur much much more likely 2 her belief is dogs on lead are not for going close to and it is my job to tell her how to get by them.

My older dog is dog neutral to on lead dogs so will walk by anyway. But I will shout a sharp HEEL to both dogs as I hope to teach my younger dog to do this when she is older ( under 2 in a retriever is NOT a grown up yet!)

I hope my dog clearly to heel would reassure, but I would not talk to you because if you talked back and distracted my dogs from their "job" of walking to heel I'd be unhappy about the interaction.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

And how our walks look.....










Deserted! 

We even make sure beach trips look like this -










With Missy in tow we're always very aware of our surroundings and tend to choose spots that are very open and clear. Luckily, despite being DA her off lead exercise has never much been reduced thanks to careful walking spots.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

BlaiseinHampshire said:


> If this is a tangent no-one wants to follow me on, feel free to ignore....
> 
> If your dog is off-lead, and is walking towards another walker with dog on-lead, do you say anything? The reason I ask is because, quite often, I have no choice but to walk along a fairly narrow pathway and, sometimes, an off-lead dog will be heading towards me and my rather nervous on-lead standard poodle. Of course, sometimes the oncoming dog's intentions are perfectly clear, but not always. Most owners, I've found, say nothing at all, leaving me somewhat anxious, wondering how the inevitable encounter will go. If I was the owner of the off-lead dog I would say something like, "He'll just go straight past you" or, "He's fine with other dogs" (I know these phrases have got a bit hijacked by the 'he's eva so frendlee' brigade but the language we have is the language we have!).
> 
> What do/would you do please?


It depends. Normally the first thing I do is analyse both the approaching dog for size, its leash status, its body language and then the owner. My reaction will depend upon their reaction. If their dog is on lead Duchess will be instructed to position herself to my side furthest away from whichever side of the path their dog is on and she will be made to sit. I then hold her collar and the owner can walk her dog past slowly and calmly. Duchess will be told to wait and released once they have passed us.

If the dog is off lead we stop and wait whilst the owner either puts their dog on lead in which case the above applies again or for them to signify that they are happy to continue walking on. At that stage I then watch the body language of each dog so I can decide upon a couple of different coursers of action. If Duchess knows the dog and they are both giving off the right signals they can say hello as they pass each other. If the other dog seems comfortable to walk on but disinterested Duchess is instructed to leave the other dog and will just walk past. If the other dog is giving off signs that it is uncomfortable or frightened on approach then again its a sit, she is held and released once safe to do so.

So to summarise what I do entirely depends upon the dog and its owner. Each encounter has to be assessed and actioned appropriately. I don't automatically put her back on lead simply because another approaching dog is on theirs.

Do I speak to the other owner? Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Again this has to be weighed up as part of the above procedures.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Oh my word @Dogloverlou, that looks fantastic.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Siskin said:


> Oh my word @Dogloverlou, that looks fantastic.


It's a bit of a cheat me posting the beach pic as we don't live close by and only visit when we're on our holidays there. But, the same applies with the local beach when we visit our caravan. We time our walks to coincide with what we hope to be the most deserted time of the day.

That field walk I posted we've only ever seen a handful of dogs use in over 8 years or more! So very secluded. We love it!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Have to admit, I miss our deserted walks lol. We've gone from seeing a dog maybe once a week to seeing loads each walk.


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## Nicki85 (Oct 6, 2010)

I live next to a big open forest which I often walk the dogs round, off lead. The Spaniel spends most of his time in the bushes, darting around, seeing what he can stir up. I can normally hear him and catch glimpses as he leaps through the undergrowth. His recall is good and he doesn't normally rush into a greeting with another dog without me giving the go ahead. But, I always have a slight concern that he may bump into the wrong dog and cause an issue. 

It's difficult though, it's a safe area for off lead fun... but the paths are typically twisty and tight, you can't see far ahead of you. Likewise, dense undergrowth and multiple parallel paths restrict visibility. I don't know what is "correct" in these environments, obviously i'll call him back when there is a dog onlead... but if I can't see them that makes it difficult.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> It's a bit of a cheat me posting the beach pic as we don't live close by and only visit when we're on our holidays there. But, the same applies with the local beach when we visit our caravan. We time our walks to coincide with what we hope to be the most deserted time of the day.
> 
> That field walk I posted we've only ever seen a handful of dogs use in over 8 years or more! So very secluded. We love it!


It's why I love going to 'our' bit of Suffolk so much. Out of season it is so quiet and we hardly see anybody and there are plenty of lovely walks. My SIL lives further south closer to Ipswich and has joined a Nordic Walking group so she's hoping to find more interesting and unknown walks in the area.
Isla had a good walk today on an area which is a permitted footpath on a farm. It's not really known about outside of the village and so is often deserted. Nothing terribly special, just round the edges of fields, but great views for the human and plenty of running for the canine.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Have to admit, I miss our deserted walks lol. We've gone from seeing a dog maybe once a week to seeing loads each walk.


We do a mix of both lol but love going to one of our many beaches joys of NI and watching our lot run and swim unmolested


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Ok so maybe all my previous posts about polite dogs and owners being the norm were because I'm naive and lucky to live in an area where people are considerate! 

We just went down south and stopped on route for a walk. Nice quiet walk, however on getting back to the car park we could see a little terrier pottering around whilst the family got ready. We put ours on lead before approaching. The terrier came up to our boy. Nice greeting, no bother. My boy started to look uncomfortable so we moved on, the other dog still trailing with its nose up his bum. Still not a huge drama - my boy will do the same (which is why he goes on lead) so I can hardly complain. After a few meters my boy turned back to sniff the other dog at which point it snarled/snapped/lunged at him. Again I can live with this. It's communication. What annoyed me is the owners continued to let it follow us, circling around my boy whilst we were towelling him off, sniffing in the backseat of the car where our dog stuff is. I was clearly trying to block it and shoo it away and they just look on and watch.

It made me think of this thread and the things I'd said about how we rarely had issues so thought I'd share! If people have to deal with this day in day out they have my sympathies!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sarahliz100 said:


> lucky to live in an area where people are considerate!


This really is key if I'm honest.

Back home I would be in the "camp" of it's not too bad out there...don't moan...then I moved to this area and my opinion of people has changed dramatically :Hilarious


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Area demographics and the owners/dogs you are likely to encounter is really interesting. I lived in a very middle classy area previously and had far more problems with obnoxious out of control Doodles/Labs/Golden's/Beagles/terrier types than anything. The sort that clock you a field away and dance around you while the Barbour clad owner whistles hopelessly (why DO people do this?) while hollering "he always wants to play!! heheheh!!". Sometimes it was just an obnoxious young dog, other times it was just a dog with atrocious social skills...

Now I live in a not so middle classy place it's actually been the opposite and it's been a total culture shock!


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

labradrk said:


> *Area demographics and the owners/dogs you are likely to encounter is really interesting. I lived in a very middle classy area previously and had far more problems with obnoxious out of control Doodles/Labs/Golden's/Beagles/terrier types than anything. The sort that clock you a field away and dance around you while the Barbour clad owner whistles hopelessly (why DO people do this?) while hollering "he always wants to play!! heheheh!!". Sometimes it was just an obnoxious young dog, other times it was just a dog with atrocious social skills...*
> 
> Now I live in a not so middle classy place it's actually been the opposite and it's been a total culture shock!


The part I`ve bolded is so true around here! I`ve never lived anywhere else (whilst owning dogs) but it is a real pain! I can`t wait until it is dark in the morning and afternoon so we can have our walking areas back lol.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I prefer where I live today, touch wood in the 4 years I have lived here, we have only encountered one bad incident, with two dogs off the lead, my dog was on the lead. In that I mean those dogs had to approach us, if they had been on the lead the incident would not have happened. Owner didn't appear to have clue, how to handle the situation, other than being apologetic.

The only other incidents have been where a GSD slipped his/her collar both dogs were happy to be around each other - lucky. In this instance I don't blame the owner at all even if things had have gone badly wrong, it was a pure accident and these things can happen. We do bump into a regular dog walker who walks his dog off lead. The dog is young and wants to say hello but being young has no manners and Duke has told this dog off.

Whilst out of control off lead dogs can be really giddy and friendly, as a dog owner with your dog on the lead - you never know what the outcome is going to be until the dogs actually meet and greet, more often then not at this point its too late.

My main issue with dogs off lead in public places isn't just about me and my dog, its about jo public, not everyone wants to have to entertain your dog, nor wants muddy paw marks on their clothes and some people have severe allergic reactions to dogs. Keeping a dog on the lead if the dog hasn't got solid recall to me it is about first and foremost the safety of your own dog and common courtesy to other people and their dogs.


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## kare (Sep 8, 2014)

sskmick said:


> My main issue with dogs off lead in public places isn't just about me and my dog, its about jo public, not everyone wants to have to entertain your dog, nor wants muddy paw marks on their clothes and some people have severe allergic reactions to dogs. Keeping a dog on the lead if the dog hasn't got solid recall to me it is about first and foremost the safety of your own dog and common courtesy to other people and their dogs.


See this I don't understand. I understand dogs wishing to play with other dogs because it has been rewarding and fun in the past

but how where when why etc would you end up with a dog bothering a stranger?

I have very friendly breed dogs but no matter how far I allowed them from me they would never have any drive to greet a complete stranger!

Only situation even close to this was a dog jumping up some tween in a field. But the child/teenager and the family of 4 adults with her made no indication there would be an issue as dogs approached and there was a field worth of passing space. Then she started making a screaming squeaking noise like a dog toy which attracted a dog from the group over to her. In my mind though nothing the dog owner could have done to anticipate her odd behaviour.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I had to work really, really hard to stop Spen bothering strangers. Even now if they indicate they'd like to meet him he's all over them like a rash. Same with Rupert. Lots of dogs find strangers fun and rewarding, perhaps due to being made such a fuss off as tiny puppies? Perhaps simply because of their personality? Both of my stranger bothering dogs came to me as adolescents but both were able to learn not to go up to people without being invited. For their safety more than anything, even knowing Spen won't bother a cyclist, runner or whatever I call him back to pass anyone as there are some nasty pieces of work out there.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I had to work really, really hard to stop Spen bothering strangers. Even now if they indicate they'd like to meet him he's all over them like a rash. Same with Rupert. Lots of dogs find strangers fun and rewarding, perhaps due to being made such a fuss off as tiny puppies? Perhaps simply because of their personality? Both of my stranger bothering dogs came to me as adolescents but both were able to learn not to go up to people without being invited. For their safety more than anything, even knowing Spen won't bother a cyclist, runner or whatever I call him back to pass anyone as there are some nasty pieces of work out there.


Muttly is the same, it's bloody hard work isn't it. I got him at 10 months, I assumed from what I know lack of human/dog/world! contact before this. But I can't be 100% sure.
He is learning that people who are not looking at him and just walking along are not interesting and he ignores. But children don't generally walk like this, and he loves them. They are a whole new ball game!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

kare said:


> See this I don't understand. I understand dogs wishing to play with other dogs because it has been rewarding and fun in the past
> 
> but how where when why etc would you end up with a dog bothering a stranger?
> 
> ...


Cian love strangers despite being a Rottweiler who as a breed are aloof  He would happily go and see anyone close enough to say hello. He's from a pup been used to strangers touching him, treating him etc, people are the giver of treats etc, Eric would be the same. KT wouldn't go near strangers and treat them like they aren't there, although she has only now started to seek attention from other people, if they are stood next to her..


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Phoebe would run to people for fuss before she'd go to a dog. She's quite good at not jumping up but shes usually wet or covered in muck and would wipe herself all over a strangers legs if given the chance!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Thankfully I have aloof dogs who dont give two hoots about strangers and even if strangers try to lure them over for a stroke, they completely ignore them. In fact, if a stranger dares to touch Jed he will show his displeasure, which is not quite so good really and I have to be careful with him.

Whether thats their nature or the fact I dont interact myself so they've just been raised to ignore, I dont know.


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