# Is it possible that some dogs just don't do well in a domestic environment?



## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

My dog is 18 months old now. We've had him from a puppy. He is so disobedient and destructive that he's making my life a misery. I've tried training him, i've had a professional trainer in too. Nothing seems to work.

He jumps at people and knocks them over, he nips when he's excited. He tries to dive through my windows to get at passers by (not in an aggressive manner, he wants to play). He has destroyed my kids bikes, their trampoline and our pool. I can't open my windows in this heat as he jumps out and runs off. He's ripped my vertical blind down standing on the window ledge and getting tangled in it when someone walks past. He has chewed through my hosepipe and my lawnmower. He's broken glass doors running straight into them (luckily it was safety glass). He's ripped my newish sofa to pieces, my little one's toys, furniture. You name it, he's destroyed it.

We have installed a stair gate but if he ever gets through he pees on my bed and rips my son's carpet up.

I dont go out often but if I do I have to crate him because he cant be trusted for even five minutes. The same if I need to clean upstairs.

Where exercise is concerned he probably doesn't get as much as he needs. He pulls badly to the point he's had me over. I bought him a canny collar which is much better but every few steps he gets up on his back legs and pulls the nose piece off with his front paws. Previously he had a long leash to run but he chewed right through it during a walk so I couldn't risk it again...we're in a town, busy roads etc.

Add to this, when we walk him there are a LOT of dogs about off lead (think owner with the can of tenants super and a snarling beast at his side).

Also add to this my neighbour at the back hasn't fenced off his garden which is a much higher level than ours so his dog regularly jumps over which means I can't let mine have a good run.

I'm starting to wonder if it would just be kinder to find my doggy a new home. I've never rehomed an animal, I don't believe in it. It would be so hard but his behaviour is not improving at all and I honestly don't know what to do.

There were four puppies in his litter, the parent dogs owner is my closest friend...her dogs are not like this and never were. One of the other puppies was the same as my dog and eventually he went to live on a farm as his owner couldn't cope with him either. She tried everything, had the trainer in too and was heartbroken but thought he'd be far happier.

I feel so mean crating him when I go out but I have to for his own safety never mind coming back to a house that's not shredded.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

What breed is he and what training program did you follow? When did he start behaving like this?


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Just following on from Galadriel; we're going to need a few more details to stand a chance of helping you. To get started:

What breed is he?
Is he entire or neutered?
How much exercise does he get (number and duration of walks per day)
Does he get any chews / interactive toys like kongs, etc?
Do you do any training or play any games with him?
What is he fed?
Is he only destructive when left alone or when someone is with him too?

You say you have tried training him - there are dozens of ways to train a dog, what methods have you tried?
What do you do when he jumps up, chews things he shouldn't, pulls on the lead etc?
What did the trainer recommend and what effect did it have?

Finally, have you tried - or would you consider trying - a qualified, vet referred behaviourist?

And any other info you think may be useful - then we can get started and hopefully help


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think Collette has said it all, but my only two questions are:

What are you feeding him and how much free running exercise does he get?

He sounds to me like he is bored to tears and has nowhere in which to invest all his pent up energy.


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

I would also like to know what breed, age, what he's fed on and what sort of exercise and mental stimulation he has and how much?

There are lots of different head collars that you could try, attached to a double end lead if needed, one clip on the head collar and one on the collar to give you more control and safer if he manages to get the head collar off.
If he has tendency to bite through leads try a chain lead, we had to do this with Simba for a while.

What do you mean by you can't let him have a run because of your neighbour? If you mean because your neighbours dog gets in to your garden I wouldn't stand for that! Id be telling him to keep his dog in his garden and that he needed a secure perimeter. Its not fair you keeping your dog in because of your neighbour.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> He sounds to me like he is bored to tears and has nowhere in which to invest all his pent up energy.


Wow! What a little home wrecker. :scared:

I agree with Newfiesmum. He needs more exercise and if exercising doesn't work then I suggest you exorcise him.


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

Wow, thanks for replies! I'll try to answer all your questions.

Breed: JRT cross.
Neutered.
Age: 18 months.
Toys: He has none because he chews right through them in minutes. I tried a kong but he's not interested.
Food: Wet food doesn't agree with him and he's not keen on dry so he's on bakers small dog meaty meals at the moment.
The chewing and barking is when he's alone or accompanied, no difference really.
When the weather is nice I leave the back door open so he can come and go as he pleases but I can't leave him out on his own due to the fencing problem. If I go out he has to be crated.
Walks: One a day and it isn't for long due to the pulling 
I dont know about the training programme, can someone tell me what the difference is?
I think that's everything, i'll have another check back


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

He has chews and we do play games with him often.
All the trainer said about the barking and going for the window was to physically block him which is virtually impossible :mad2:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sarah70 said:


> Wow, thanks for replies! I'll try to answer all your questions.
> 
> Breed: JRT cross.
> Neutered.
> ...


One of your problems is very clear - Baker is full of colourants which nobody gives to children because it makes them hyperactive. Horrible stuff and not good for him at all.

As to chews, have you tried some sterilised, stuffed bones. You can buy them in most pet shops usually wrapped in cellophane. They are rock hard and filled with meaty stuff. Even my dogs can't chew through those.

You should try to arrange with your neighbour to get his fence made higher. It is not fair that his dog can get into your garden.

Your next and major problem is the exercise. Of course he pulls; he is so excited to be out, and the less you take him, the more he will pull when he does go. He is only a small dog and I know how strong they can be, but I think you need something like a non pull harness, with the clip at the front, or a dogmatic headcollar with a double ended leash. One end attaches to the headcollar, the other to his normal collar. This way you can hold both ends and he will not damage his neck.

The more he goes out, the more he will realise that he is going nowhere with the headcollar and you can start holding just the collar end, unless you need extra.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

He does just sound really under stimulated, plus the Bakers probably doesn't help at all.

Could you perhaps go to training classes or do lots of short training sessions at home?

Can you go out into the garden with him and play or train so he's supervised out there and getting good interaction?

Buy a harness or headcollar to help with the pulling until you train him to walk nicely on the lead? I am guessing that he's so excited to be out that it doesn't help at all. Can you manage a few walks per day?

The Bakers probably isn't helping at all as it's one of the worst foods that you can feed - there are great threads on different foods if you decide that you might like to change: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/194976-wet-dog-food-index.html http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/111437-raw-feeding-everything-you-need-know.html I'm sure you could find something to suit him.

As far as barking and going for the window goes, could you perhaps leave a houseline on him and remove him every time he does it so that he understands that going for window = removal from room?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Have to agree with Newfiesmum. I'd get him off the Bakers and on to something decent ASAP and get him out more. There are no pull harnesses that would help with the pulling until you've taught him to walk nicely. There are also headcollars. 

Do you do any sort of training or mental exercises with him? If not I would start to do so. Mental exercise can tire a dog out just as much as physical exercise (although of course they still need to get out and about).


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

To be blunt (sorry) I'm not suprised he is being a bit of pain as he doesn;t appear to have any stimulation at all. JRTs (from what I have read) need alot of exercise & mental stimulation & your dog is getting none of these.

Most dogs pull on their leads if they haven't been taught correctly (some are alot easier to teach than others). I have a 34kg GSD who still pulls like a steam train when she is hyper but she still gets decent walks to keep her active.

You need to practise 'loose lead' walking & BE CONSITENT! I think this is where people go wrong & I know it has been the case for me my dog. Me & my OH have had loads of rows as he doesn't bother when he takes Roxy out so undoes all my hard work 

There are some links to how to practise this in smokeybears posts #9 in this link to another thread regarding loose lead walking http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/235895-dogs-pulling-lead.html#post1061997826

As for barking in the garden is there a noise that sets him off? How long does he bark for? With my dogs I have taught them it's ok to bark to let me know someone is there but then 'enough'. Have a look at Kikopups training clip on Youtube regarding this (there are loads of other really useful clips on her website) Dog Training- How to train your dog not to bark- Episode 1 - YouTube

As for the fencing problem I don't understand why you continue to let your neighbour get away with this. Can you not have word with him/her? Maybe invest in some chain link fencing & put this around the top, it's reasonably cheap & you could always get a climbing plant to cover it.

With a training programme I think people mean 'how are you teaching behaviours'? Do you reward your dog for doing something? Maybe have a look at some of the posts on clicker training. This uses a clicker to 'mark' the correct behaviour - the dog then gets a reward. You need to get your timing right but I have found it great

You should really be taking your dog out a couple of times a day & having short training sessions (at home & when out) & playing with him. Some dogs may not be interested in toys but maybe buy a few for him & play with him, not just leave him with them. Once you've finished put them away.

With kongs what fillings did you use? Maybe try some different things, in this weather you could alos make a gravy up & freeze it for him.

Sorry but I think the only problem with your dog is that he is bored.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

If you tell us whereabouts you are in the country and if you drive, we may be able to find you some safe places where you can let him off lead to have a good run round.

You have a high energy working breed who is getting almost zero stimulation. Change that and his food, and you will find the destruction will gradually disappear.


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## WhippetyAmey (Mar 4, 2012)

sarah70 said:


> Wow, thanks for replies! I'll try to answer all your questions.
> 
> Breed: JRT cross*. - First quite a high energy active breed.*
> Neutered.
> ...





sarah70 said:


> He has chews and we do play games with him often.
> All the trainer said about the barking and going for the window was to physically block him which is virtually impossible :mad2:


How much training do you do with him?


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

We have a "Canny Collar" for walking and he does walk properly on it, the problem is that he's able to get the nose piece off so one minute we're walking, the next he's wrapped the chain lead around my hand...ouch. I've had a look at the dogmatic one...is there no chance at all of him getting the nose piece off? If so I think i'm going to give that a try.

Where the neighbour is concerned, unfortunately there's not much I can do. He knows the problem and hasn't done anything to remedy it. I just cant afford the amount of fencing i'd need my side at the moment. I'm much lower down so it would take a lot  (Fence on top of fence iyswim).

I will have a look at the food too, does anyone know if there's something similiar to the Bakers meaty but without the rubbish it contains? It's kind of a cross between wet and dry food if that makes sense.

Games we play with him. Ball, frisbe, hiding treats..any suggestions?

I really do need to sort him out, he's a lovely little boy but i'm so fed up with having things wrecked that I can't afford to replace.


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't drive so taking him somewhere safe to be off lead isn't an option. 

I do try to watch him as much as I can but with two kids to look after it isn't always possible. When I catch him chewing I tell him off and give him his chew instead, he doesn't listen at all.

The training wasn't reward based.

I'm trying to answer all of your questions, sorry if i've missed some


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I have a JRT and you really do need to exercise him more, his behaviour stems from lack of exercise and the food he is eating. 

There are lots of quality foods he could be fed, Fish4dogs is one. The dog food index on here will offer more advice 

My JRT is happy with about 1 and a half hours on weekdays and about 2-3 hours on weekends. she is a couch potato after a good run or long walk and some mental stimulation.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Provided a dogmatic is properly fitted, he will not be able to get the noseband off. They have the advantage of not riding up and they come in pretty colours so people do not mistake them for a muzzle.
Sizing Guide

Your dog would probably be a size 1, but do measure.  They will take the measurements and advise.

If you get a food that has its first ingredient as meat or fish, it is much tastier and you could try wetting it to bring out the meaty bits. I feed Barking Heads and their salmon and potato range actually does smell like salmon. I always mix in a little sardine or something similar.

I don't know how big your garden is, but is it possible to fence off about six feet from the back fence, just cheap metal stuff would do. I am imagining that if the neighbour's dog got in, then he would be stuck between the fences and it might deter him. What happens when he gets in? I can imagine that he can't get himself out again.

Your neighbour may not have done anything because he may not realise that it is causing problems. Some people need things clearly explained to them or it does not get through.

Reward based training is finding some high value treats, like cheese if he likes it, get him to do something you want, like come to you, something simple to start with, then give him his treat as soon as he comes. Do not tell him off for doing wrong. That just confuses the dog; calmly swap what he shouldn't chewing for what is his.

There is lots on the training section about it, and it would take too long to go into it here.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

I agree with the other posters about ditching the Bakers. I have no experience with a dogmatic head collar but I would recommend a walk your dog with love harness. Broder sometimes pulls but the harness definitely helps as it physically pulls him to the side. Also he had a tenancy to bite at the lead but this has completely stopped since using the chain lead.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

JRTs really are stubborn, tenacious and high energy. They are very intelligent too so will respond well to reward based training but it has to be constant and consistent. If you give an inch with a JRT they really will take a mile.

They need clear boundaries and structure too. What's his usual daily routine?

As the others have said Bakers really is terrible. Have a look at the food index that Dogless linked too. Choose a good quality food and stick to it (something like Fish4Dogs or Applaws) and I bet he won't turn his nose up at it. If he does, leave it down for 10/15 minutes then remove it without fuss. Put it down again at his next feeding time and repeat. Don't feed anything else. It will only take a day or two of going without before he realises he isn't going to get anything else. A healthy dog will not starve itself!

Apart from the food your other problem is lack of exercise and stimulatation. My dogs get about 2 hours exercise a day, quite often more and my JRT keeps up with the long leggeds and would probably go on for longer. They also get a few obedience training sessions and all their food they get out of a Kong which keeps them occupied.

He really needs at least one good run a day as well as some good walking. Can you get a ball thrower and play fetch in the park every morning or go for a run/cycle with him? Him pulling is no excuse for not exercising him. It will only make your problem worse. Maybe try an anti-pull harness like the others have suggested in the short term.

A tired dog isn't destructive 

What have you put in the Kongs? Google kong stuffing for ideas. Stagbars are great too.

Have you got any training books? Or did you get any before you got him? If so, what are they?

ETA: Read http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/you-get-your-puppy-0 it might seem a bit irrelevant now but it will help you understand what's gone wrong and there's lots of good info on that site. http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/behavior-problems is another good page for you. It maybe a good idea to start from scratch and implement short term confinement (which you have already with your crate) and long term confinement for when you can't supervise him so he can't carry on self rewarding by chewing various things he shouldn't be - this should only be a short term thing as part of a proper training program so eventually he can have free run of the house without destroying everything  using confinement as a long term solution rather than as part of a training program is cruel.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Is your neighbour in rented/council property? Just wondered if you could lodge a complaint with the council/landlord regarding this. or maybe speak to the local dog warden about this. 

There is no way I would be keeping my dogs in simply because my neighbour wouldn't sort their out. I would try & explain that you are finding this a problem is they won't do anything then I would take matters further.

Can you not find anywhere nearby to let him off lead? Have you thought about maybe making friends with other dog walkers who may be able to help you out? People can be incredibly generous with things like this & I have received alot of help with one of my dogs from others that I didn't really know.

I would defintiely see if you can get him in to a training class as these are really benenfical to dogs but mainly their owners.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

I can only echo some of what the other posters have said.

1. I'd try a different food definitely, some dogs are not too bad with colourings but others can get extremely hyper (my collie is one so I know from personal experience just how over-excited and silly he gets if he eats a treat with colourings).
2. Don't be fooled by your dog's size - he is an extremely active breed even if he's not the biggest of dogs. We have 3 JRTs in our agility class and they keep up fine. Have you thought about trying something similar with your dog? it may seem like his behaviour is not good enough to try but something that requires your dog to think and to focus on you while doing something physical can help you both bond with each other while building your confidence that he can and will listen to you (and give you the rest of the day to yourself as he will crash out afterwards)


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

What age did you get him? 
What was his developmental environment like, e.g. did he grow up only with littermates for X weeks old?
What experiences did he receive before 12 weeks old? 

Although I agree that this behaviour may stem from his daily life, i.e. how much energy he is expending at the moment (or the lack of). It's also incredibly important to know what happened during his critical period of development- this is when he is soaking up all different experiences, before the onset of fear behaviour. If he has had little experiences, problems with over-stimulation are prevalent later in life as a way of dealing with the environment. 

JRTs are not 'stubborn' or anything else derogatory. They have a biological make-up that makes them incredibly alert to changes in their environment. They are easily over-stimulated and aroused. Their threshold for over-stimulation may be very low and breed-specific behaviours can easily be triggered. 

However, people take this to be a dog who is rude, stubborn, etc., etc.

Take your dog to a vet first. Change his food. Hire a rewards-based trainer, from e.g. the APBC or CAPBT. I would argue go for an experienced clicker trainer.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm sorry, OP, but didn't you ask these same questions, and receive the same answers, a year ago?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/166361-little-man-driving-me-mad-2.html

You were told then how bad Bakers was, but it appears you still have him on the same crap food. If it is cost, there are better foods and I don't think Bakers is all that cheap any way. You could even try Dr Johns, certainly by no means the best, but cheap and will not send him scatty.

Did he ever get to the training classes you were talking about?

It is really pointless anyway wasting their time giving you advice if you ignore it.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

If it's money then CSJ is cheaper than bakers and has no additives.

You can soak it in hot water or add some natural goats yoghurt to make it tastier.

Where are you based?


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> What age did you get him?
> What was his developmental environment like, e.g. did he grow up only with littermates for X weeks old?
> What experiences did he receive before 12 weeks old?
> 
> ...


Stubborn: "Having dogged determination..." if you don't think JRTs are determined then you've never met my Buster or any of the other JRTs I know. I don't see it as derogatory either, it's one of the traits that makes them so good at the job they were bred for 



newfiesmum said:


> I'm sorry, OP, but didn't you ask these same questions, and receive the same answers, a year ago?
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/166361-little-man-driving-me-mad-2.html
> 
> ...




According to the http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-health-nutrition/189896-dry-dog-food-index.html it has a similar daily feeding cost to the likes of Burns, 
Wainwrights, Vitalin, Whites and JWB isn't that much more expensive...


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

In all honesty, if you haven't bothered to do anything in the past year, then maybe you should rehome the poor thing before he develops more, and potentionally more serious, behavioural issues.

Sounds like a cracking dog, but in the wrong hands.


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## Guest (May 26, 2012)

Nonnie said:


> In all honesty, if you haven't bothered to do anything in the past year, then maybe you should rehome the poor thing before he develops more, and potentionally more serious, behavioural issues.
> 
> Sounds like a cracking dog, but in the wrong hands.


This would be my advice too, with the caveat that you also go through a reputable rescue organization that will screen homes and take the dog back if need be.

I do think some dogs do better in certain environments than others. High energy dogs living in homes where there is little time to spare on exercising the dog is not conducive to setting the dog up for success. 
By the same token though, Ive seen improbable matches work really well because the owners were dedicated and knowledgeable enough to make it work.


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

Hang on, I don't think that's quite fair. People are making assumptions. Last summer I was quite ill and literally off my feet for a couple of months so the training class was out. I did hire the trainer to come to me last winter when my health had improved.

Re: The food. I changed it several times but it didn't seem to make a difference, and to be honest it was difficult to find something he liked so I went back to Bakers. People kept telling me he'd "grow out of it", obviously that's not the case. The foods I had tried however are all on the "bad" list posted here, which I only read yesterday so I obviously made a mistake.

I'm asking for advice here because I DO care, and I AM bothered. It's not my intention to waste anyone's time. I'm asking BECAUSE I know very little about dogs and I thought the best place to get advice was from "real" people rather than a fact sheet. The fact that i'm inexperienced with dogs doesn't make me a cruel person, i'm quite upset at some of the suggestions to rehome him because i've failed to train him yet. He is my first dog, i'm asking because I want to learn! It would break my heart to rehome him, I dont want it to come to that!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

It may be difficult to take some of the comments but it is only because people here do hear similar stories regarding a young dog who then gets older, the problems become worse & then the dog is no longer wanted. Dogs like that will also find it more difficult to find a new home, harsh reality but this happens to thousands of dogs 

Look at now as a fresh start then. Take on board the advice given & put together a training plan. I do understand how difficult things can be, I have only been a dog owner for just over 2 yrs & my second dog has been a 'handful' to say the least 

It has taken a while but she has made so much progress lately that I'm chuffed to bits for her, it is so rewarding when you can see you hard work paying off  

These things aren't easy but you really do need to be consistent & meet his needs. As well as burning off energy by exercise short training sessions will help. The link to the Kikopup website has lots of really useful clips. I love her stuffas the clips are so easy to follow & she explains things really clearly. You can do sessions at home, in the garden & when out.


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh he is very much wanted believe me, although I do appreciate you've probably all heard it before! I was absolutely at my wits end with him last night as he'd ruined something i'd only bought six hours previous!

Anyhow. I bought him some new food today, I couldn't get my hands on any from the "green" list...(think I would need to order online, not being able to drive is a real pain). I got him some from the "yellow" list. He didn't seem overly impressed but he did eat it which is good. He hasn't touched his filled bone but never mind.

We went on a much longer walk this morning and he was especially bad getting his nosepiece off. In the end as we neared home I left it off and he DID walk nicely for five mins which is unusual, i'd normally get my arm pulled off straight away. I'm still going to order the dogmatic though until he can walk nicely for longer, as no pulling means longer walks. (This will be the seventh lead/harness type combo we've tried, we're getting quite a collection!)

It's a start (fingers crossed).


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## Guest (May 26, 2012)

> sarah70 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm starting to wonder if it would just be kinder to find my doggy a new home. I've never rehomed an animal, I don't believe in it. It would be so hard but his behaviour is not improving at all and I honestly don't know what to do.
> ...


So youre upset at yourself then?

Admitting your limitations and making tough choices for the good of the dog is nothing to be upset about. Its being responsible.

If you are set on keeping the dog, youre going to have to go at it in earnest, not half-way. If you were ill, youd make arrangements for the human kids to be cared for, the dog will need the same. If you had a trainer out, what plan did the trainer put in place and how did you go about implementing that plan? Did you follow through on what the trainer suggested? Did you call the trainer back and let them know what was working and what wasnt and ask what to do then?

This is what Im talking about. Having a trainer out isnt enough, you have to continue to follow through. There is no magic that will take an 18 month old understimulated underexercised JRT cross and turn him in to a perfect family companion overnight. Whatever you do youre going to have to stick to it consistently for a good while before you see improvements.

Like the food. Im not in England, have no idea what Bakers is, but I know it takes at LEAST 6 weeks to notice any change from changing diet, better yet, give the new diet a solid 3 months or 4 months. If you were asking for advice on your 6 month old pup who is now 18 months, Im guessing you didnt give the new foods enough of a chance.
Id also suggest making him work for his food. No reason for a dog like this to eat out of a bowl. Put his food in a food puzzle or wobble/kong type toy and get him to figure out how to get to it. This will not only increase his interest in his food, it will give him a much needed mental workout.

There are a lot of things you can do, but you have to give them a real try. Ideally you need to work with a qualified trainer who will give you a written plan and help make sure you follow through.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

With such a small dog why don't u take him cycling?

Also invest in a walking belt, it saves your arm.


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

ouesi, please don't pick apart my posts.  I did wonder if it was kinder to rehome him yes because I don't want him to be unhappy, clearly something is wrong, and at that point last night I didn't realise the failing was with me.

I'm upset at the suggestions that I rehome him because I "can't be bothered" because that isn't the case at all.

Very different.

I will take on board all suggestions and I do appreciate the advice...not sure how many more times I have to repeat that....it'll get boring honestly


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi goodvic, sorry didn't mean to ignore you there. He's not actually that small. He's twice as tall as a JRT and much wider (maybe the pug in him?). He's very strong...I don't think cycling would be a good idea at this point. What's a walking belt? (clueless)


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## kate_7590 (Feb 28, 2009)

Iv got a walking belt for my 3 border collies, 2 of which are VERY strong.
It makes such a difference you wouldn't believe.
If you search sid&kira/ indi dog on here you will find a lovely lady who makes walking belts, aswell as all different collars and leads etc. I really do recommend a walking belt 

Hope you have some luck with it


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Haven't read all the replies as it's late and off to bed shortly, sorry if what I say has been said.

Firstly def give him a different food. I always promote raw because there are absolutely no additives in it and you know what your dog is getting. It's quite rare to have a hyperactive dog when it's raw fed and many people have found their dog to be much calmer when changed over. A lovely rack of pork ribs will keep him occupied for ages and is so much nicer to chew on than a bowl of biscuits. A pigs trotter will also take time to get through and tire him out with all that gnawing.
He's also part JRT so needs plenty of exercise (I have one too) and stimulation. Mine like the 'find it game' where you let him smell a treat and hide it somewhere he can easily find it at first, like on the floor by a chair leg, once he gets the hang of the game you can hid it under things like a cushion, on the window sill etc. He will love that game eventually but it will take a couple of days for him to pick it up and best of all it tires them out totally, mental stimulation can be just as tiring as physical. You could find that he will start to behave better one he has some stimulation.
I would repair the fence myself to stop the dog at the back getting over rather than restrict my dog in his own garden because of it. You'll benefit in the long run and your dog definitely will.

After you've done all that find a trainer and see what you can do to help with his naughtiness but I honestly can't recommend enough the raw diet to help with his hyperactivity. So many people have tried it with success, as so many things are linked to allergies and it's very difficult finding the cause when feeding a commercial diet that has many different ingredients.

I have three Malamutes, naturally energetic dogs and a JRT cross with two other crosses and all six are the most laid back dogs you could wish for. Raw diet perhaps? - most likely helps! 

ETA - My JRT cross is also 18 months old (recently neutered) and not at all destructive, I wonder if a friend may help him settle.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sarah70 said:


> Oh he is very much wanted believe me, although I do appreciate you've probably all heard it before! I was absolutely at my wits end with him last night as *he'd ruined something i'd only bought six hours previous!*Anyhow. I bought him some new food today, I couldn't get my hands on any from the "green" list...(think I would need to order online, not being able to drive is a real pain). I got him some from the "yellow" list. He didn't seem overly impressed but he did eat it which is good. He hasn't touched his filled bone but never mind.
> 
> We went on a much longer walk this morning and he was especially bad getting his nosepiece off. In the end as we neared home I left it off and he DID walk nicely for five mins which is unusual, i'd normally get my arm pulled off straight away. I'm still going to order the dogmatic though until he can walk nicely for longer, as no pulling means longer walks. (This will be the seventh lead/harness type combo we've tried, we're getting quite a collection!)
> 
> It's a start (fingers crossed).


Sarah, I realise that you are trying, but please tell me why you left a brand new item where the dog could get it? I suggest you put everything away that you don't want chewed and refrain from buying any new furniture whatsoever until he has stopped eating everything. When Ferdie was a puppy, he chewed up a £200 pair of shoes. Whose fault was that, I wonder? Certainly not the dog's.

Just to re-assure, in October I got a 3 1/2 year newfoundland, who weighs about 60 kg, and had never in her life been walked on a lead. Needless to say, when I put a lead on her, rather stupidly on my part, she pulled me flat on my face. I simply could not hold her on just a lead, but after a few weeks with the Dogmatic and a double ended leash, as described, I no longer need the headcollar at all.

I am not saying your dog will ever get to that stage, not all dogs will, but the more he goes out, the less excited he will get.

Keep on with the food; please do not go back to Bakers or anything else you can buy in a supermarket.

To Ouesi: If you have never heard of Bakers, you are very lucky. Dreadful stuff.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

sarah70 said:


> We went on a much longer walk this morning and he was especially bad getting his nosepiece off. In the end as we neared home I left it off and he DID walk nicely for five mins which is unusual, i'd normally get my arm pulled off straight away. I'm still going to order the dogmatic though until he can walk nicely for longer, as no pulling means longer walks. (This will be the seventh lead/harness type combo we've tried, we're getting quite a collection!)
> 
> It's a start (fingers crossed).


LOL, believe me I also have quite a collection of harnesses & head collars to try to stop Roxy pulling. I've now found the gentle leader works best for us.

I would say that having a headcollar is really helpful & I still use mine but you dio also need to practise walking either loose lead or to heel without one. It will take time but you will get there.

Roxy has taken quite a while & still pulls at times, usually when she knows we are going to the beach; she almost bunny hops to get there 
Every time she does it we turn & head back to the car, then turn back to the bach - it took forever at first & I'm sure people thought we were nuts 

This link may help you get things started as it gives a daily training guide for you & you dog for a whole month. I used this when I first got Roxy & found it really useful. The person running the website used to be a member here but i haven't seen her post for a while.There is lots of really usful stuff on here
TYD Month « Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

6 months ago I took on an 18 month old Doberman x GSD who had been through 2 homes, 2 fosters and 2 kennels in his short life. Given up for being totally uncontrollable but the lady in Rescue was convinced there was a nice dog there somewhere....
Yesterday we had a nice walk, he played, swam, greeted and ran then came home and had a nap and a bit of affection. It was probably the first day of no incidents but we`ve finally cracked it! 
It did take 6 months though. 
There are no quick fixes and you will have good days and bad days. 
Please persist. 
Sensible food, regular exercise and training, masses of socialisation... and you`ll have a companion for life. 
I recommend you get Jean Donaldson`s The Culture Clash. It is a general behaviour and training book, which will give you a complete approach. It is kind, practical and wise.


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

"Sarah, I realise that you are trying, but please tell me why you left a brand new item where the dog could get it? I suggest you put everything away that you don't want chewed and refrain from buying any new furniture whatsoever until he has stopped eating everything. When Ferdie was a puppy, he chewed up a £200 pair of shoes. Whose fault was that, I wonder? Certainly not the dog's."

That's a very good question. It was a new garden toy for the kids and it was being played with at the time. The kids were in and out of the house so it was very difficult to keep track of him. Perhaps you're wondering how we didn't spot him chewing in that case? Well it was an inflatable so one quick chew was all it took to render it completely useless!

I do tell the kids to be careful with their stuff but kids are kids and they don't always remember. The big garden items can't be put away obviously so there's not much I can do about that.

I want to be able to have the door open in this weather anyway, since I can't have the windows open...it's way too hot for me (not that i'm complaining, this is probably our summer!)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

sarah70 said:


> "Sarah, I realise that you are trying, but please tell me why you left a brand new item where the dog could get it? I suggest you put everything away that you don't want chewed and refrain from buying any new furniture whatsoever until he has stopped eating everything. When Ferdie was a puppy, he chewed up a £200 pair of shoes. Whose fault was that, I wonder? Certainly not the dog's."
> 
> That's a very good question. It was a new garden toy for the kids and it was being played with at the time. The kids were in and out of the house so it was very difficult to keep track of him. Perhaps you're wondering how we didn't spot him chewing in that case? Well it was an inflatable so one quick chew was all it took to render it completely useless!
> 
> ...


Inflatables are definitely a thing of the past! Also coffee tables, ornaments, vases of flowers................these things have to be managed. I wish you luck with him, I really do.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Galadriel17 said:


> Stubborn: "Having dogged determination..." if you don't think JRTs are determined then you've never met my Buster or any of the other JRTs I know. I don't see it as derogatory either, it's one of the traits that makes them so good at the job they were bred for


I've met and worked with many JRTs 

To be 'stubborn' implies the dog knows what we want of them and that the dog is purposefully and intentionally following his own motivations.

Now, if you can prove this, please accept the Nobel Prize. However, until then, 'stubbornness' as a trait in dogs will remain anthropomorphic.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Stubborn means the reward isn`t good enough or the trainer isn`t clear enough. 
With young dogs, you go back to crawling baby stage in your home. If it can be reached, it will be played with. So you move it. 
Your children will soon learn to be tidy. After their new game has been eaten. Mine did.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

Rottiefan said:


> I've met and worked with many JRTs
> 
> To be 'stubborn' *implies the dog knows what we want of them and that the dog is purposefully and intentionally following his own motivations*.
> 
> Now, if you can prove this, please accept the Nobel Prize. However, until then, 'stubbornness' as a trait in dogs will remain anthropomorphic.


That's not how I meant it, as mentioned, I was meaning that they are generally very determined.

For example, give my JRT a kong with a bit of dried liver wedged in the end that's virtually impossible to get and he will not give up until he gets it, even if it takes hours. My lab, given the same problem will try for a while then give up and just leave it there...

For the OP: Thought of a book you might want to get - When Pigs Fly by J Killion

ETA: Here's a link to the book on Amazon - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1929242441?ie=UTF8&ref=aw_bottom_links&force-full-site=1


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## sarah70 (Feb 12, 2011)

Thanks for all replies. We went into the centre today as it happened to be dog training tonight and got the details.

My next question is kids and dogs really. My son is 15 and doesn't seem at all committed to training. The trainer we had, recommended that as he was a chewy/nippy dog at the moment, no "tug of war" games, or rough play with him. My son listens about as much as the dog does. However, this isn't entirely his fault as he has a mild learning disability and very little short term memory.

He will quite happily roll around with the dog and they both love it but I have a feeling this is going to be a problem where training is concerned and maybe a case of one step forward two steps back. He gets the dog excited and then it's nip chew nip etc. 

I'm trying to promote calm, my son does not and it isn't as easy as telling my son to behave because as far as he's concerned he's just playing.


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## Guest (May 30, 2012)

sarah70 said:


> Thanks for all replies. We went into the centre today as it happened to be dog training tonight and got the details.
> 
> My next question is kids and dogs really. My son is 15 and doesn't seem at all committed to training. The trainer we had, recommended that as he was a chewy/nippy dog at the moment, no "tug of war" games, or rough play with him. My son listens about as much as the dog does. However, this isn't entirely his fault as he has a mild learning disability and very little short term memory.
> 
> ...


I think the no tug rule is dumb. Tug is a wonderful way to teach your dog impulse control, drop, and to interact with you in a meaningful way. My kids have played tug with all the dogs from day one.










Rough play is another great opportunity to teach the dog bite inhibition, and self control even when highly excited. 
Any trainer worth their salt should be able to show you how to teach both these games in a safe and useful way. I would be suspect of a trainer that doesnt know how to instill impulse control in to a dog.

To promote calm, you have to reward calm - both in the dog and in the child. If your son loves playing with the dog but wont follow your rules, simply separate them every time the rules are broken. They will both quickly learn that fun interactions only get to continue if they do it appropriately.


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## Samy (Mar 14, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Keep on with the food; please do not go back to Bakers or anything else you can buy in a supermarket.
> 
> To Ouesi: If you have never heard of Bakers, you are very lucky. Dreadful stuff.


PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE stop with the bakers! I have a Parsons Jack Russel (long legs) and I had him on bakers his hair started to fall out in places and hadnt grown back for a few months, I have taken him off the bakers and feed him "the good stuff" now and in just over a week the hair has started to grow back, I cant believe that his biscuits had potentially caused this, we go to a local pet food shop and spent ages talking to the bloke about all the different foods he is on his new diet and would you believe that the wet food is actually cheaper, the biscuits a little more expensive but it balances out in the end and I spend the same amount.
Dodge started to eat my dry wall a little while ago and I got him a kong he has only done it once since then. he also pulls on the lead at the start of all walks and will be lovely on the way back if he is worn out.

Did you mention where abouts you are maybe someone on here is near you and can bring a doggy friend along to try and give you dog a good run around during walks?

good luck! I am currently working with a vet recommended behaviourist, its hard work and not cheap but better than the alternative  (and she has no issues with us playing tug with Dodge)


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

ouesi said:


> I think the no tug rule is dumb. Tug is a wonderful way to teach your dog impulse control, drop, and to interact with you in a meaningful way. My kids have played tug with all the dogs from day one.
> 
> .


Have to totally disagree with your advice!

The OP is having trouble with their dog, hence the post and training classes and u r telling them to ignore the advice of their trainer.

Not all dogs can play tug far from it!! The OP's son has mild learning disabilities which may also restrict his ability to read the dog. The OP is going to the trouble of going to a trainer. Don't knock the advice before they've had a chance to try it.

You are a regular poster on this forum. Shame on you for your awful advice on this


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Have to totally disagree with your advice!
> 
> The OP is having trouble with their dog, hence the post and training classes and u r telling them to ignore the advice of their trainer.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I have always been able to rough play with Toby & play vigorous tug-of-war but would never have done this with Roxy at first as she used to get hyper far too quickly which could then turn into 'aggression' (for want of a better word) which would then be directed at Toby.

It took a while of getting to understand her limits & her body language (as well as her calming down & settling in) to begin to play with her in this way. She is fine now & loves playing tug-of-war, etc but I still don't 'wrestle' with her as I do with Toby.

I would always be cautious & if the OP has been advised not to rough play then I would also follow this advice. Until both the dog & the son have a better understanding of play & will listen to the OP (that's both of them ) then I would try & also promote 'calm' as the OP is doing.

It's very easy to become over whelmed with advice (I know I did!) but if the training class is going well then stick with the advice given for now different play games can always be introduced later

Really hope things go well for you all


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Whilst i agree that Tug with the son, who has learning difficulties is probably not decent advice as he probably could not remember the rules, i do believe ANY dog can play tug, you just have to set ground rules from the moment you begin, you cant just play it and expect dog to understand what is ok and what is not.

The thoughts that dogs can not play tug, or play rough with owners is IMO a bit outdated, they can but you have to teach em the rules of the "games", and know both the dog and the person!! However at the beginning whilst both are learning then yes probably advisable not to play this way. Interestingly it was one of the first games our trainer told us to play with Dex when we first got him, as it burns energy really well, (but it took a lot of walking away etc when he did not listen)so advice does just depend on the trainer.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Whilst i agree that Tug with the son, who has learning difficulties is probably not decent advice as he probably could not remember the rules, i do believe ANY dog can play tug, you just have to set ground rules from the moment you begin, you cant just play it and expect dog to understand what is ok and what is not.
> 
> The thoughts that dogs can not play tug, or play rough with owners is IMO a bit outdated, they can but you have to teach em the rules of the "games", and know both the dog and the person!! However at the beginning whilst both are learning then yes probably advisable not to play this way. Interestingly it was one of the first games our trainer told us to play with Dex when we first got him, as it burns energy really well, (but it took a lot of walking away etc when he did not listen)so advice does just depend on the trainer.


Yes but not advisable when trying to work though problems.

I have to disagree in that not all dogs and people can play tug. Some dogs get to excited. What works for one person may not work for another.

Dex is a good example. He could play well with someone like yourself who is calm and in control. But get a less confident person playing with him and it could cause mayhem.

But my post was for this specific situation.

No point someone going to a trainer and then being told to it ignore the advice. Different if it's detrimental to the dog. But this isn't


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Yes but not advisable when trying to work though problems.
> 
> I have to disagree in that not all dogs and people can play tug. Some dogs get to excited. What works for one person may not work for another.
> 
> ...


Like I said depends on the trainer.... we were, as you know trying to work through problems- and Tug was top of her list of things we should do. It was to try and wear him out, so he could listen and focus more, AND redirect the mouthing. He used to get manically excited- but I taught him the rules.

The dog in the OP sounds like it could do with more exercise both mentally and physically- Tug could provide this. With the mother if not the son.


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## Galadriel17 (Jan 22, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> ...No point someone going to a trainer and then being told to it ignore the advice. Different if it's detrimental to the dog. But this isn't


This ^ 

I do think 99% of dogs can learn to play tug if done correctly but in this situation, we haven't met the dog, the trainer that the OP has gone to has and we shouldn't be telling the OP to ignore the advice of the trainer when not playing tug for now won't be detrimental to the dog.


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> Have to totally disagree with your advice!
> 
> The OP is having trouble with their dog, hence the post and training classes and u r telling them to ignore the advice of their trainer.
> 
> ...


So because someone is a dog trainer they can't give bad advice?
I don't know about the UK, but here in the US dog training is a wholly unregulated industry and we have plenty of incompetent dog trainers who give bad and dangerous advice - even on TV 

I wonder if your objection would be the same if the trainer's advice had been to not walk the dog because the dog gets too excited on a walk? 
How is that so very different than telling someone to not play with their dog because the dog gets too excited? 
You don't tell someone not to walk their dog, you give them the tools to do it safely and give them exercises to practice to gain verbal control over the dog. Its absolutely no different playing tug or any other game with your dog.

If a trainer is telling the owners not to play tug that tells me that either the trainer has no idea how to teach a dog impulse control, or has no idea how to teach the owners to teach the dog impulse control. Both of which point to incompetence IMNSHO.

The childen in the picture I posted are both 9, the dog weighs more than the kid he's tugging with. This same dog who came to us at 8 months as a "problem" dog. He's one of our smaller dogs. 
I don't manage to have two young kids and four giant and large breed rescue/rehab dogs safely living together by following inept, outdated, advice like "don't play tug".

My dogs are first and foremost family dogs and IME, aside from bite inhibition, impulse control is one of the single most important things for a family dog to have. How exactly does one teach impulse control if the dog is never allowed to get excited about anything? And what good does that do, knowing full well that no one can control every single aspect of a dog's environment so that the dog never gets overexcited?

Teaching a dog impulse control is not difficult or complicated at all. Crate games, go crazy freeze, its yer choice, LAT, and yes, TUG, all are easy, simple ways to teach a dog to control himself even in a highly arousing setting. And it can all be done in very kid-friendly ways. If my kids as toddlers can play games like go crazy freeze, then certainly a teenager with MINOR learning disabilities can play tug with a dog with a few very simple rules in place.

Shame on me? Really?
Sorry, I did not elaborate in my previous post, but I still stand by my statement that telling someone not to tug with their dog is dumb.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> So because someone is a dog trainer they can't give bad advice?
> I don't know about the UK, but here in the US dog training is a wholly unregulated industry and we have plenty of incompetent dog trainers who give bad and dangerous advice - even on TV
> 
> I wonder if your objection would be the same if the trainer's advice had been to not walk the dog because the dog gets too excited on a walk?
> ...


Whilst this is your opinion I still think that all dogs, the situations & the people involved are different.

As I mentioned previously, Roxy could get too hyped up which could then spill in to 'aggression' (which was then directed at Toby) - why would I want to encourage her in a game which resulted in this?

Instead I did practise calm games & as we both begun to understand 'the rules' we could begin to play more exciting games.

I do think if the OP is with a trainer & is happy with the advice then she should stick with it. I don't think advising someone not to play tug is 'outdated' it may just mean that the trainer doesn't think this is an appropriate for game for now but not in general.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

But if you were absolutely happy with the advice your trainer was giving you would you be questioning it, and asking for others opinions on here?

The OP has said it will be very difficult to get the son to NOT rough house with the dog, so ok teach the dog and son the rules of the game instead.......


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> But if you were absolutely happy with the advice your trainer was giving you would you be questioning it, and asking for others opinions on here?


Its my understanding that a) the dog is not aggressive and b) the op has not found the other advice given by this trainer to be helpful (blocking the dog from whatever he's barking at).
I believe we're not talking about a NEW trainer the OP has seen. I read it as still talking about the same trainer she met with months ago while the pup was still teething who was the "not rewards based" trainer. I'm sorry but I tend to be leery of any trainer who doesn't even know to use rewards based training with a wee pup. Even the dominance chest thumpers generally agree that babies do best with rewards based methods.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I see what people are saying, if someone's going to a trainer and being given specific advice then we shouldn't really be telling them to go against it but when it's known that someone in the household is going to go against it anyway surely it's better to find an alternative?


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Whilst this is your opinion I still think that all dogs, the situations & the people involved are different.
> 
> As I mentioned previously, Roxy could get too hyped up which could then spill in to 'aggression' (which was then directed at Toby) - why would I want to encourage her in a game which resulted in this?
> 
> ...


In one breath you say all dogs are different, in the next you use your dog as an example of why this OP should not play tug. Yet your dog was aggressive (which the OP's dog is not) and your dog took the aggression out on your other dog (which the OP doesn't even have another dog). So you're talking about a different dog in a different situation to prove that my example of a different dog in a different situation is invalid?

And then finally you go on to say exactly what I was saying that you taugh the dog to control herself so that she could play exciting games. 


Most of the time when I encounter a trainer who says "no tug" its becaus the trainer either subscribes to outdated alpha-dog philosophies, or because the trainer is simply in over their head as far as behavior mod is concerned.

In the OP's case, she has a small dog who needs more mental and phisical stimulation, a teenage son who likes playing with the dog, I'm thinking the LAST thing they need to be told is no tug. 
If the boy and the dog both love playing tug what a fabulous opportunity to incorporate training (mental stimulation) and play (physical stimulation) and build a better relationship between the dog and the boy.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> In one breath you say all dogs are different, in the next you use your dog as an example of why this OP should not play tug. Yet your dog was aggressive (which the OP's dog is not) and your dog took the aggression out on your other dog (which the OP doesn't even have another dog). So you're talking about a different dog in a different situation to prove that my example of a different dog in a different situation is invalid?
> 
> And then finally you go on to say exactly what I was saying that you taugh the dog to control herself so that she could play exciting games.
> 
> ...


No, I used one of my dogs as an example that not ALL dogs should be encouraged to play tug. When I was working with a behaviourist she advised that, at that time, I should not be encouraging Roxy to play 'rough'. That wasn't to say that she would never be playing those sort of games - just not at that point in her life.

You posted _'If a trainer is telling the owners not to play tug that tells me that either the trainer has no idea how to teach a dog impulse control, or has no idea how to teach the owners to teach the dog impulse control. Both of which point to incompetence IMNSHO.'_ - I don't believe the behaviourist I was seeing at the time was incompetent at all, she had seen my dog, noted the issues & advised. She was in no way using 'outdated philosophies' - just common sense imo

Similarly, if the OP is seeing a trainer, is happy with the advice then telling her to ignore then trainer is not helping her but maybe be confusing issues.

in the first post the OP said the dog 'nipped', rough play may encourage this if not controlled carefully., So many people will rehome a dog that has nipped them or their child so I would always be cautious if encoruaging this behaviour (that's not to say the OP would rehome becuase of this but plenty do).

I used my dog as an example, all dogs are different, all situations are different, owners are different. If the OP is happy to play with tug & can supervise play sessions without the dog getting too hyped up then great, but if she has been advised otherwise then I would take that on board even for a while.


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## beadysam (Apr 17, 2012)

Ok, I'm no dog expert so feel free to ignore me - I won't be offended! This probably seems daft but how about teaching your dog to sit, shake hands or some other small and simple trick. It will teach you both about reward based training and when you manage it (you will, you have a clever little doggy there) it will give you the confidence knowing that your dog is trainable and that it is possible to sort out all your issues. 
Please do take the advice about the food - we can't afford much so we are on Wainrights at the moment but home to go to raw eventually - diet is a huuuge part of your dogs life, and you want to give the best you can for many reasons, not least to help with behaviour.
I've got a Spinger/Collie cross that we have had for a month, and taught, sit, down, paw, other paw, high five, high ten, roll over, stay, go on, fetch, drop it,etc - we are still working on come, though she's got it, she is easily distracted and it needs to be stronger. Pulling is the issue at the moment, she'll walk to heel until rewarded, or praised, then she's off! Lol, we'll get there.:thumbsup:

Best of luck, we all have to learn and its hard with a family too, but help and advice is there for you - don't forget youtube as a great resource too.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sarah70 said:


> Where the neighbour is concerned, unfortunately there's not much I can do.


how about REPORT the invading dog & lazy #$%@^! owner? 


sarah70 said:


> [my neighbor] knows [there's a] problem [with his dog leaping into my yard], & hasn't done anything
> to remedy it. *I just cant afford the amount of fencing i'd need*... I'm much lower down,
> so it would take a lot  (Fence on top of fence *iyswim*).


cat-proof fencing ADDED to ===> the neighbor's side of the fence at THEIR co$t will solve the problem - 
it's not that costly, angles inward to keep the dog from leaping out, & adds height more than weight.

a home-made version of the coyote-roller will also work - but cat-proof fence can be almost invisible, 
& UV-resistant PVC tubes aren't a flattering look.  BUT THE NEIGHBOR PAYS - 
not U, as it's *their* dog getting into *Ur* yard!


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## Guest (May 31, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> No, I used one of my dogs as an example that not ALL dogs should be encouraged to play tug. When I was working with a behaviourist she advised that, at that time, I should not be encouraging Roxy to play 'rough'. *That wasn't to say that she would never be playing those sort of games *- just not at that point in her life.


Exactly.



Cleo38 said:


> You posted _'If a trainer is telling the owners not to play tug that tells me that either the trainer has no idea how to teach a dog impulse control, or has no idea how to teach the owners to teach the dog impulse control. Both of which point to incompetence IMNSHO.'_ - I don't believe the behaviourist I was seeing at the time was incompetent at all, she had seen my dog, noted the issues & advised. She was in no way using 'outdated philosophies' - just common sense imo


Your behavioralist wasn't incompetent because she didn't say NO tug, she said lets get some common sense rules in place first, get some training in place first and then eventually you had a dog who could play tug without trying to eat your other dog.



Cleo38 said:


> Similarly, if the OP is seeing a trainer, is happy with the advice then telling her to ignore then trainer is not helping her but maybe be confusing issues.


a) I don't hear her saying she's happy with the trainer, and b) the OP is very welcome to ignore my advice. If she didn't want it she should not have asked for opinions on tug on a public forum.



Cleo38 said:


> in the first post the OP said the dog 'nipped', rough play may encourage this if not controlled carefully., So many people will rehome a dog that has nipped them or their child so I would always be cautious if encoruaging this behaviour (that's not to say the OP would rehome becuase of this but plenty do).


Tug is not "rough play". Tug is a very structured game with specific rules. It gives the dog very specific things to bite and shake and helps the dog learn self-control which in turn IMPROVES puppy nipping.

I don't know what the OP's trainer said specifically. For all we know the trainer never even said "no tug" but might have said don't play tug with clothing that you're wearing and the OP extrapolated a general rule from that (I've seen worse interpretations of clear training advice.)

I'm not going to continue to argue my point about tug. I think its a wonderful training tool and I stand by my statement that "no tug" is a dumb, outdated, useless rule born of trainers who are either afraid of their dogs morphing in to alpha schmalphas and taking over the universe, or who are simply ignorant and need further education.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

I agree with the above, tug should not be rough play, and is wonderful for teaching control, once of course both dog and owner have learnt the rules of the game.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I see what people are saying, if someone's going to a trainer and being given specific advice then we shouldn't really be telling them to go against it but when it's known that someone in the household is going to go against it anyway surely it's better to find an alternative?


Exactly what I was getting at!


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