# Help with people fearful dog



## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, so after a string of very unfortunate events and horrid experience Skye has taken a turn into being generally timid with people to down right afraid. 

She will now bark if people come to try and pet her, she will snap (not with intention to bite as she doesnt lunge or go for the hand just snaps to warn away. 

Now this is only outside the home, on the other side of things, she is fine with people who are invited into the home, she will bark but after the first few alert barks she settles down and will allow guests to pet her and play and what not. 

Now my problem is I've over come this 4 times with her already but everytime we end up back here again and worse due to more bad exerience for her. 

Background:
1st reason this occured - puppy socialization trainer alpha roled her and pinned her down in the puppy class, so much for 'positive reward based training' 
As a result: She became shy she but didn't bark at people are any of that
2nd reason - Drunk person threw a bottle at her
As a result: She started to bark when people came to touch her and back off
3rd reason - She was surrounded by a large group of people wanting to say hello despite my saying don't touch her and trying to get out of the situlation, people grabbing and her and trying to hold her from me (ignorant people) 
As a result - She growled at the people, barked and completely started shutting down
4th reason - this time she was shouted at and kicked by a stranger for trying to play with his dog even though she was being completely fine with his dog. Then on the way home drunk people stomping their feet and lunging at her. 

Each time I have overcome it with getting strangers to give her treats, or inviting people over, not letting strangers touch her when we are on a walk to the park, but on the way home allowing 1 person to greet her who is willing to go down to her level, give her a bit of sausage, let her sniff them, give her some more sausage until she warms up to them and allows them to stroke her down the back. 

This time it's different, with her now so afraid she is becoming snappy and not just barking, with a possibility she may bite I'm not sure now I should be going about this. 

I'm so furious at the ignorance of some people, I know I can over come this with her again and hopefully this time once and for all. 

I just need some idea's of this time how to go about this.

She is a lovely dog, I love her will all my heart, I don't want to see her bite someone or not be able to trust her. 

I myself have let go of any fear I have about her biting people so as I am in the right state of mind to go about training her, and now I am ready to begin re-socializing her, so if anyone could offer some tip's it would be much appreciated!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

There's been recent thread with High Visibility Vests available, proclaiming nerous dog, no touch, no eye contact etc.

Your dog is doing distancing behaviours, I'd keep working on it but try to exercise in places like wide open fields and parks, avoding pavements and narrow paths as much as possible, until she's more relaxed.

You may find some not so subtle signs, like a walking stick, or ready lines to use "like so sorry must dash I'm late", can help you avoid unwanted proximity with the untrustworthy.

Real shame, you can't walk her in my area, as there seems to be very little of this kind of nonsense going on. Perhaps you can grow a beard, or try to look more madly psychopathic like "Simon the DW" in a different breed? 

Actually with a fit high energy dog, perhaps a cycle attachment would help, you can simply trot her past or away from ppl before they saunter over?


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> There's been recent thread with High Visibility Vests available, proclaiming nerous dog, no touch, no eye contact etc.
> 
> Your dog is doing distancing behaviours, I'd keep working on it but try to exercise in places like wide open fields and parks, avoding pavements and narrow paths as much as possible, until she's more relaxed.
> 
> ...


Heh what a coincidence I just shoved a thread on dog chat seeking some help finding a jacket like that!

Ah unfortunately I live in London so large fields and such are hard to come by, any that still exist around here have recently become planned sites for buildings .

We do tend to stick to that parks though, in terms of walking on pavements I tend to keep her on the side to which the wall is, not to make her feel trapped but so I can position myself in front of anyone who tries to approach and intervene.

Thats a great line, I'm going to have to practice that one, actually I've never thought of quick get out of the sitution lines before, thanks for that tip!!

Haha if I grew a beard it would be rather unusual being a rather short oriental woman myself :lol: - it would certainly be interesting though!!

I will certainly look into a cycle attachment though at this stage we don't do large amount of exersise with her being that she's still young.

Thank you very much for your help, green blob coming your way!


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## thedogsmother (Aug 28, 2008)

i found walking with my friend and her very people friendly lab helped with Henrick, also age paid a big part in him getting more confident, although I did ask people if they could stop and talk to me without adressing him, then we moved onto them throwing treats for him, again without adressing him. Eventually he just got over his fear, he now meets people with that usual gsd ignorance (ie youre not my mummy so Im going to virtually ignore you). They do go through a natural fear period apparently at about 7 months I think, how old is she?


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

goodvic2 a staffie rescue guy mentioned them, might help your search for the reference, they were £32 or so though


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I think personally all you can do is start completely again, and work on positive experiences and making walks fun.

I had a similar thing with one of mine, though his was more, "environmental and noise phobia" more than anything.

Do you drive? I started by driving him to the park, starting with times there would be a few people, but once people were in work and kids were in school.
If she is good with dogs and likes to play, it may be an idea to actively search out people with calmer friendly dogs, and use the dogs as the intro to people. I did a similar thing but the other way round, it was a dog who was fear agressive with dogs, but by gaining his trust and feeding him treats, we then slowly introduced Nanuq, getting her nearer and nearer, then going for walks, until he gained trust and interacted with her, then we started with other dogs, with her as a role model.

If you could find people with dogs, explain and ask them to completely ignore her and let her interact with the dogs, then let her watch, as the owner interacts with his dog, and gives treats, then maybe she will then allow close contact with the owner working up, to softly speaking to her, then offering a treat, and eventually stroking etc.

Hopefully once she has had a few positive experiences over a few weeks, you can then very slowly at her pace build up the challenges of introductions to more people and slightly busier areas.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Crucial info here: how old is she now? At what ages did all those awful things happen?

I find with work with human reactive dogs that hand feeding ups their stress. Come here and have sausage - tempting so they decrease distance and then they are stuck with this person of whom they are actually afraid.

Her escalated signaling is testament to that discomfort. So first thing is first - stop the up close contact with unfamilar people.

Next, get to know and study subtle doggie discomfort signaling.

Start working on establishing a safe working distance so that D+C and BAT work can begin. More on this here: Premack-ing for Calm | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Teach her alternative greeting/focus behaviours such as nose touches to palms. Outstretched hands become much more pleasant if they can be touched to receive a reward and then retreated from. More here: Essential Exercises for Cerraazzzy Canines: Focus & Re-focus | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

I suggest you have a look at fearfuldogs.com (and their excellent blog) and get the book Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

thedogsmother said:


> i found walking with my friend and her very people friendly lab helped with Henrick, also age paid a big part in him getting more confident, although I did ask people if they could stop and talk to me without adressing him, then we moved onto them throwing treats for him, again without adressing him. Eventually he just got over his fear, he now meets people with that usual gsd ignorance (ie youre not my mummy so Im going to virtually ignore you). They do go through a natural fear period apparently at about 7 months I think, how old is she?


Thank you for this, unfortunately I don't really know any dog's that are particularly 100% stable 

ETA - I will definately try asking people to talk to me and ignore her and slowly just get people to throw treats to her.

My Dascha is great with people but treats them with a certain about of indifference & is also dog fearful but Skye's helped her with this.

She's now very nearly 12 months old


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I think personally all you can do is start completely again, and work on positive experiences and making walks fun.
> 
> I had a similar thing with one of mine, though his was more, "environmental and noise phobia" more than anything.
> 
> ...


Thank you, unfortunately I don't drive just yet but am learning (though I'm dreading paying for insurance).

She's fantastic with dogs and now heres the little catch to her behaviour I forgot to mention - if she person has a dog she is more focussed on greeting the dog or playing with it that she normally accepts the person touching her and will even at times go and willingly say hello. So as you have said I reckon I shall go on a search for a good doggy role model for her who can help her. Most dog owners will greet her the right way rather than all the noise and fuss that drives her up the wall the 'awwwww' and clicking sounds, sucking of the teeth (don't quite know how to explain that sound I spend about 5min doing it trying to find a way to explain it :lol: ), that really get to her.

Thank you so much for the advice and I shall try and find a nice doggy role model for her around me, the only dog that springs to mind I know lives all the way in dorset


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

tripod said:


> Crucial info here: how old is she now? At what ages did all those awful things happen?
> 
> I find with work with human reactive dogs that hand feeding ups their stress. Come here and have sausage - tempting so they decrease distance and then they are stuck with this person of whom they are actually afraid.
> 
> ...


Appologies for forgetting those details.

She is now a year old (or well be on Sunday).

The 1st even happened when she was 14 weeks old, the 2nd happened at 5 months old, the 3rd happened at 5 months old, the 4th happened at 11 months old.

Thank you very much for the advice.

I will give those a read now!

That's the command we are working on at the moment 'touch' to a hand and then getting rewarded by the other.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

pika said:


> Thank you, unfortunately I don't drive just yet but am learning (though I'm dreading paying for insurance).
> 
> She's fantastic with dogs and now heres the little catch to her behaviour I forgot to mention - if she person has a dog she is more focussed on greeting the dog or playing with it that she normally accepts the person touching her and will even at times go and willingly say hello. So as you have said I reckon I shall go on a search for a good doggy role model for her who can help her. Most dog owners will greet her the right way rather than all the noise and fuss that drives her up the wall the 'awwwww' and clicking sounds, sucking of the teeth (don't quite know how to explain that sound I spend about 5min doing it trying to find a way to explain it :lol: ), that really get to her.
> 
> Thank you so much for the advice and I shall try and find a nice doggy role model for her around me, the only dog that springs to mind I know lives all the way in dorset


Thats the trouble with non doggie people in the main, they approach way too exciteable, and too up front and in the dogs face literally, for an unsure or fearful dog its way too confrontational. Just seek out and garner help from as many savvy people as you can, initially telling them to ignore her and putting no pressure on her, that will give her time to make up her own mind and do it in her own time. If you can prime people before so much the better, thats why people with dogs is a good idea, shes not worried about the people just focused more on the dogs, taking the heat off, while you can prime the owners and explain what you need to do/acheive and why. Plus she can watch and learn by the owners interaction with their own dogs, giving her confidence from the other dogs and their behaviour around the owners.


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Thats the trouble with non doggie people in the main, they approach way too exciteable, and too up front and in the dogs face literally, for an unsure or fearful dog its way too confrontational. Just seek out and garner help from as many savvy people as you can, initially telling them to ignore her and putting no pressure on her, that will give her time to make up her own mind and do it in her own time. If you can prime people before so much the better, thats why people with dogs is a good idea, shes not worried about the people just focused more on the dogs, taking the heat off, while you can prime the owners and explain what you need to do/acheive and why. Plus she can watch and learn by the owners interaction with their own dogs, giving her confidence from the other dogs and their behaviour around the owners.


I completely agree, the biggest problem I have especially with a small dog is that they lean right over her and I'm not sure any small dogs handle that very well. Another being the sounds and gestures its all so excitable and stressful.

Oh and the biggest, peeve of mine - PEOPLE NEED TO TELL THEIR CHILDREN DO NOT APPROACH STRANGERS DOGS WITHOUT ASKING!!! :nono:

Honestly, the amount of children who have come literally running up to her making all sort of noise and sound trying to pet her are very lucky they still have their fingers if they do this to all dogs. I'm just thankful I can pick Skye up and tell these kids thats not the right way to greet a dog and she is not good with people - or one I do use to teach children something - She will bite!

But thats me going off on a tangent, I completely agree with getting dog savvy people to help out, thank you very much for your help!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

pika said:


> I completely agree, the biggest problem I have especially with a small dog is that they lean right over her and I'm not sure any small dogs handle that very well. Another being the sounds and gestures its all so excitable and stressful.
> 
> Oh and the biggest, peeve of mine - PEOPLE NEED TO TELL THEIR CHILDREN DO NOT APPROACH STRANGERS DOGS WITHOUT ASKING!!! :nono:
> 
> ...


I agree kids can be worse still, some have no idea how to approach, get exciteable and vocal, some want to stroke but are unsure, then they do the hand forward, hand withdrawn thing, in jerky unsure movements, this then transfers to the dog, thats already made unsure by their initial approach.
Dealing with any dog with any uncertainty or fear problems can be a long process requiring a lot of patience and calmness anyway. Just try and avoid putting her in any negative situations as much as you can.


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> I agree kids can be worse still, some have no idea how to approach, get exciteable and vocal, some want to stroke but are unsure, then they do the hand forward, hand withdrawn thing, in jerky unsure movements, this then transfers to the dog, thats already made unsure by their initial approach.
> Dealing with any dog with any uncertainty or fear problems can be a long process requiring a lot of patience and calmness anyway. Just try and avoid putting her in any negative situations as much as you can.


Yes, I completely agree. I tend to avoid children, though I have met some really lovely ones who have come and asked about Skye without acknowledging her and calmly let her aproach and sniff and left it at that.

Thank you so much for the help, I will certainly not give up. I have all the time and patience for her, I will gladly continue working with her until this is resolved .


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

pika said:


> Appologies for forgetting those details.
> 
> She is now a year old (or well be on Sunday).
> 
> ...


Poor baby that this all happened to her so young - talk about shaping her view of people 
Is she an Alaskan Klee Kai? Have just been having a conversation with someone about their spooky one and then see on a trainers group how someone else was having trouble with socialisation issues with one - they all come together!

She is still young and impressionable so thats def a help. We are way beyond socialisation now with this dog - she requires remedial care and to turn her attitude around.

As said previously, she needs management (not putting her in any situations that cause her to feel this way, she needs to be kept below threshold and establishment of a safe working distance. All that is in a link I think before.

You are doing great by working with her especially on simple behaviours like 'touch'.

It will really be a question of getting her exposed to different people doing different things at a safe distance where she can be rewarded when they appear and given the op for a double reward by allowing her to retreat if she wants to.

Dog Gone Safe have some great intro stuff on reading signaling: Learn about dog body language You need to learn her earliest discomfort signaling which is likely to be super super subtle. If she shows that immediately give her distance. This way she learns that she doesn't need to use the big scary dog stuff and will gain cnfidence by learning how to control her environment.


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

tripod said:


> Poor baby that this all happened to her so young - talk about shaping her view of people
> Is she an Alaskan Klee Kai? Have just been having a conversation with someone about their spooky one and then see on a trainers group how someone else was having trouble with socialisation issues with one - they all come together!
> 
> She is still young and impressionable so thats def a help. We are way beyond socialisation now with this dog - she requires remedial care and to turn her attitude around.
> ...


Yes  I suppose my biggest regret would have been that training class. I think from there things just went down before that she adored people. I have placed a complaint to my vet who recommended her as a trainer.

Yes she is an Alaskan Klee Kai.

Definately, I will be avoid such situations that could set her off for now.

I don't suppose you know if getting her spayed will alter her behaviour at all? As she will be getting spayed in June.

Are there any other behaviours you can recommend?

Also when she starts barking at someone what is the best course of action? I've been just walking away from the situation.

I have been taking her to greenwich park on the weekend early to have a run about and release some energy then spending about 30min sitting on a bench just watching people jog and get one with their lives.

I'll give that a read as well, thank you so much for all your help!


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

I tend not to recommend neutering to teenage fearful dogs. But discussion with someone who has assessed the dog and is knowledgeable in behaviour will prob be more helpful to you.

There will still be some health benefits in getting her neutered by her third cycle so you still have some time to make that decision.

If she erupts get outta dodge! Here is another link on teaching a good escape behaviour: Essential Exercises for Cerraazzzy Canines: Getting Outta Dodge | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!

Sorry for all the links and reading - its like homework 

There are actually lots of bits and pieces relevant to you and your situation in this blog series: Crazy Canines | Pet Central&#039;s Pawsitive Dawgs Blog!


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

tripod said:


> I tend not to recommend neutering to teenage fearful dogs. But discussion with someone who has assessed the dog and is knowledgeable in behaviour will prob be more helpful to you.
> 
> There will still be some health benefits in getting her neutered by her third cycle so you still have some time to make that decision.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the link's they are much appreciated helping so much!!

So I just went on a walk with her, for now I am avoiding peak times in the park.

It went very well, there were a few people in the park and people 'awwwing' and such at her I tried just talking to her and treating her most of the walk and keeping her focus on me, this worked very well. I don't care if I look like a weirdo talking to my dog for the whole walk it kept her focus and she didn't bark once.

What are you recommendations for weekends?? Here in London where I live there are just so many people out and about, I'm not sure where to walk her. Are short walks on a weekend going to be ok, so say just going out for her to do her business and then returning and doing some mental exersise?

Are there any other things or commands to work on that can help her behave around people?

I was recommended watch me by a few people but this one has never worked for her.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

May be a lot of links, but you're really getting top notch professional advice.

Oddly comparing notes to Sled Dog Hotel, I've found non-doggy ppl tended to behave better in general, asking if they could touch the dog and such. It's been the "I know dogs and must know more as he's just got a puppy" types that I've had issues with. Fortunately, it's fairly easy for me to avoid ppl and my guy has never been a slouch.

Of course it's different if you take a pup to the local Beer garden, but I probably have physical advantages when it comes to not being put upon, being bearded and old enough to be a grump 

For a fun suggestion where to walk her, may be on Hampstead Heath or Wimbledon Common with this guy, you could swamp the bandits by sheer weight of numbers Video Cuts - A Different Breed Episode 3 Video: The Dog Whisperer!


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

RobD-BCactive said:


> May be a lot of links, but you're really getting top notch professional advice.
> 
> Oddly comparing notes to Sled Dog Hotel, I've found non-doggy ppl tended to behave better in general, asking if they could touch the dog and such. It's been the "I know dogs and must know more as he's just got a puppy" types that I've had issues with. Fortunately, it's fairly easy for me to avoid ppl and my guy has never been a slouch.
> 
> ...


Thank you again!!

Really?? I always find doggy people around here far better with approaching her, when it comes to the advice or whatever they want to say I'll always listen, but when it's utter nonsense I just ignore it and smile. I find similar to Sled Dog Hotel that not dog savvy people make a lot of jerky or very fast movements towards the dog or bend over them.

Its worth a shot  I've seen him on TV, its amazing!


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

I've found a good place to people watch is the Supermarket car park. The wife goes in the supermarket and I open the back of the car and sit with my leg across the back. He gets to see lots of people pushing trolleys and they all ignore him because they're busy. I'm guessing he also feels safe in the back of the car... never tries to come through even tho there's no guard.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

pika said:


> I always find doggy people around here far better with approaching her, when it comes to the advice or whatever they want to say I'll always listen, but when it's utter nonsense I just ignore it and smile. I find similar to Sled Dog Hotel that not dog savvy people make a lot of jerky or very fast movements towards the dog or bend over them


It's probably because the "can I touch the dog?" occurs with families with small children. Parents wanting to teach their kids to be cautious.

My main issues have been dog walkers with urge to treat someone else dog, despite their own dog actually doing guarding, so actually nipping, or encouraging jumping up (least when it's not wet & muddy).


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

RobD-BCactive said:


> goodvic2 a staffie rescue guy mentioned them, might help your search for the reference, they were £32 or so though


Hello. I can't send a pic right now as I'm not near the computer. One of my dogs is fearful of strangers and will react negatively if approached.

He now wears a high viz jacket saying "no touch, talk or eye contact".

This has had amazing results. He is no longer stuck on a lead because I worry about other people. Most people (dog owners) are really helpful and say what a good idea it is.

You can't force a dog to accept strangers approaching them. I think some dogs will always be like this. But if you can educate people then you eliminate the problem.

PM me later and I'll send u the details x


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

I've found it here - http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-training-behaviour/160761-art-dogs-not-public-property-ppl-should-ask-not-assume-not-insist.html#post2433417
Actually rather an appropriate thread given OP's dog's history!


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## simon69 (Jan 27, 2010)

I had a major problem socialising Spice, my Alaskan Klee Kai b!tch, after getting her at five months from Cumbria, where she had been enjoying the country life, to getting thrown into city life in the middle of Clapham Common.

She used to wee herself when people stood over her and crouched down. She also used to bark and bite other dogs, out of fear. She also used to anxiously chew things in my absence such as wires, shoes, anything to hand.

I quickly taught her "no biting!" whenever she picked up anything I didn't want her to chew. I then bought myself a training muzzle off eBay. In public, if she bit other dogs, I'd repeat the command, "no biting!" and put the muzzle on, which she'd have to wear until we went home. Its amazing how the behaviour of a dog changes when you introduce a muzzle. Robbed of their only two defences, barking and biting, their character changes completely. With the muzzle on, I had several strangers approach her, stroke her, etc, until she no longer simply tried to run.

When she was comfortable with this I took the muzzle off and allowed strangers kids etc to feed her. She got used slowly to accepting food off strangers. Its a great way to control the strangers' behaviour as well as the dogs. Just give them something to give the dog that the dog is interested in. It also stops them from stroking the dog's back or head which they find intimidating. Slowly they will begin to accept the idea that the stranger, sometimes with food, does not necessarily equal bad news.

Now, all I have to do is show Spice the muzzle and her defensive aggression stops. We no longer even take it out on walks. She is perfectly happy with strangers although does bark a bit at some larger dogs who she finds a bit scary still.

Another tactic I used when I felt she was scared of others or about to bite is I simply picked her up and carried her in one arm in the foetal position, vertically upright to stop the natural fear of being on their back, and also allowing them to look around. Giving them a bit of height and distance from others seemed to settle her.

S.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

simon69 said:


> *bold & italic added - *
> 
> ...Spice, my... Klee Kai bitch [arrived] at 5-MO from... country life... thrown into city life in the middle of Clapham Common.
> 
> ...


sorry to disagree, but this is NOT teaching a dog to relax & enjoy friendly strangers - muzzling her & then 
forcing her to endure petting & handling till SHE * GAVE-UP * does not make happy associations, 
nor does this process go at the dog's pace - both of which i strongly recommend.

fearful animals should be allowed as much as possible to approach On Their Own Terms - 
exceeding their threshold & in specific 'making them' or forcing them to comply is called *flooding*. 
flooding has a very high risk of *sensitizing* further - making it worse - rather than lessening 
fears, as a properly planned course of DS/CC, DeSensitizing & Counter-Conditioning, will do.

the idea is to make her HAPPY to see friendly-strangers - not resigned to them or helpless.

it should be obvious that "showing her the muzzle" is a threat - the message is, 
 _*'Do it -- or else!...'*_, not _'meet new friends, & have a nice time.'_ :001_smile:


simon69 said:


> *bold & underline added - *
> 
> Another tactic I used when I felt she was scared of others or about to bite is I simply picked her up and carried her
> in one arm *in the foetal position*, vertically upright to stop the natural fear of being on their back,
> and also allowing [her] to look around. Giving them a bit of height and distance from others seemed to settle her.


a fetus is not 'vertical' nor 'upright', Simon - they are curled in like a comma, head toward tail, 
protecting the vulnerable belly with the spine & ribs, & conserving space in the uterus.


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## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Thank you for all the help and articles everyone here has directed me towards.

Now I have devised a plan as she is getting better.

For the time being, I am doing everything on her terms, if she wants to greet someone she can, if she expresses no interest I will just tell people she doesn't like strangers please don't approach her. 

I am continuing trying to get her better with people but she is at the point I do not fear her being a danger anymore. 

She doesn't bark, she talks now which is an improvement. 

We are working on it and the jacket has worked a treat!!

So, she is doing well so far. She has just been spayed so it may be back to square 1 when she gets back to her normal routine, but I'm happy to work with her through it. I can see the change and things getting better simply by suiting things more to her.


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## simon69 (Jan 27, 2010)

To clarify - the muzzle was only put on her when she bit other dogs, not simply for introducing her to strangers, and it wasnt done every single time we went on a walk either... I didn't "flood" her with contact either, but I did immerse her in it as much as possible from a young age, ie having friends and family round, approaching her, feeding her, ie people I trusted. This was over the course of a few months not days or weeks.

Unfortunately living in central London and out in public contact with strangers is inevitable and the quicker they get used to it the better IMO... ie from as early an age as possible, otherwise they will have behavioral problems for the rest of their lives... Especially these breeds which are used to large packs. Absolutely yes do it at their own pace but if you see behaviour which needs correcting, whether its approaching other dogs too aggressively or biting other dogs or indeed humans, dont be afraid to correct it quickly. Positively reinforce the good behaviour, encourage her when she's scared but certainly dont let her associate bad behaviour with either a treat, affection or attention from yourself.

Giving the reward to strangers works a treat though trust me! Tell them to wait with it and let the dog go to them. Kids take to this really well as as soon as their palms start to get licked they are often the ones to back away not the other way round!

S.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

simon69 said:


> Especially these breeds which are used to large packs.


oh, yes! i have seen huge packs of free-roaming miniature Nordics roaming over the countryside - 
terrifying hordes of snappy little prick-eared, ring-tailed fluffies with teeth flashing. 


simon69 said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> Absolutely yes [socialize & allow contact/handling] at their own pace but *if you see behaviour
> which needs correcting*, whether its approaching other dogs too aggressively or *biting other dogs
> ...


* BITING when overwhelmed is not "bad"! it's a clear INDICATOR that U exceeded the dog's threshold. 
it is *our fault as handlers,* not the dog's - we not the dogs, blew it. 
there should be multiple signals before the fear gets to the defensive-biting stage... unless of course, 
U have punished them into extinction?

* U cannot *correct* AKA *punish* biting - it already happened; *U manage to prevent it.*

* when i do B-Mod on fearful dogs, i specifically associate the scary trigger with happy-things: treats, toys, 
play, calmatives, familiar stimuli & settings, etc. *if the dog growls i'm too close - not the dog's FAULT, 
it's mine; when i offer a treat & it's accepted & eaten, it's a test to see if the dog is still operant, AKA 'thinking' -
rather than simply emotionally-reacting & incapable of learning in that state.*

so feeding a treat to a growling or barking or snapping dog is NOT 'rewarding aggression', 
in this instance: B-Mod pairs nice-things [food, etc] with scary things which cause a growl / bark / snap, __. 
*we are too close or the stimulus or setting is too intense, if the dog is reacting vs simply aware; 
but we aren't REWARDING reacting, & the dog does not 'learn to growl more' or 'learn to snap more'.*

if the dog is reacting, back-up: add more distance, or reduce the volume of the storm-recording, or otherwise 
make the stimulus or setting less intense. For visual stim, ADD a Calming-Cap to reduce the dog's input. 
do something to either reduce the dog's exposure, or increase the dog's comfort to counter it. 
reducing the dog's exposure is generally the simpler option, but sometimes ADDing a comfort-factor 
[the fuzzy-focus of a Calming-Cap or the squeeze of a body-wrap] are needed options, like a car-trip 
to the vet for needed care but this dog is excited in the car when s/he sees other vehicles passing: 
the Calming-Cap allows the dog to get to the vet with less arousal.


simon69 said:


> Giving the reward to strangers works a treat though trust me!
> Tell them to wait with it and let the dog go to them.


i wouldn't suggest this =Unless= the friendly-stranger throws the treat away from them, or drops it 
at a distance where the dog is comfortable, or drops it and Backs-Up to give the dog space to feel comfy 
and move forward, etc.

Why? 
because offering the treat as a lure can cause the dog to overstep her/his comfort zone to get the food; 
when the food is gone, *there they are! - * beside their nightmare, or at the feet of the bending person, 
or being loomed-over, _*Yikes!....*_ and the dog instantly reacts. 
this can result in precisely what we don't want: even more sensitization & hypervigilance.

a safe version is Treat & Retreat: 
U're the scary-person: toss the goodies AWAY from U & a bit past the dog, so s/he *retreats* to get them. 
U are now getting more bang for the buck: the dog gets both more distance & the treat itself, doubling the power 
of the reward & making the dog feel safer. 
even better, the dog is *reset to approach on her/his own:* to get more treats, wait a bit, s/he takes even 
ONE step toward U, immediately [without speaking or eye-on-eye contact] toss more treats => past the dog, 
just 2 or 3, and again wait. See how this works?

the dog moves *away* & becomes less stressed, the food makes good associations, the head-down sniffing 
to find the food is a self-calming displacement behavior, the dog eats which releases endorphins, finishes and... 
looks up to see the source, takes one step toward U, and U immediately *reward* that glance, step, 
whatever might be rewardable, with a few more treats AND... More Distance.

this can go on indefinitely, with the dog getting just a bit closer each time, eventually being at one's feet. 
we have not loomed-over the dog, entered their personal space bubble, put our hand or other body-part within 
biting-distance, or triggered any other emotional reactivity; instead, we let THE DOG decide to approach freely 
WITHOUT luring, & they are rewarded for that decreased distance with *more distance* plus *treats*. 
now they have more distance, they are again calmer, they can look at us, *reward*; approach, *reward*; 
show reduced-stress signals: sit or lie-down, *reward*; lift their ears, head or tail, *reward...*

see where it's going? Anything that is not fear can be rewarded, with both More Distance: toss the treat 
*past* the dog - And The Treat itself.


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