# Grumpy bunny



## Dragonflydays (Dec 6, 2012)

I have a question. I have two mini lops, a sister and a brother. They were born March 23, 2012. They were together up until 4 months, at which point my female hit puberty very suddenly and had a sort of false pregnancy. I also separated them very quickly when I noticed that my boy was in fact, a boy (and not a girl like I previously thought). Anyway all was well except she was VERY moody and mean for a month and a half.

In September 2012 we got them neutered and spayed. 

About 4 weeks later we re-introduced them and after 12 hours of chasing they hunkered down and fell back in love and have been caged together ever since. My girl bunny got her old sweet temperament back.

In October 2012 we moved the buns to a new location (new apartment). Since then my boy bunny has been grumpy and slightly aggressive (and this is well after his neutering). He was always sweet and lovey before. I can hold him (usually upside down like a baby) and put him to sleep, but if he is out and about the apartment or in his home, he grunts at everyone (including his sister) and lunges, though not so aggressively that he's caused any damage. However he is grumpy.

I want to solve the grumpy bunny issue! They get outings every day (roam of the apartment--they are litter trained and do not have any accidents) for several hours, fresh food and hay twice a day, toys to play with and take out aggression on, fresh veggies both in the cage and in the apartment (we place them around for them to forage). 

Any insight or tips to making my boy his old sweet self would be appreciated.

The boy is Ginger and the girl is Oreo. They are now 8 and a half months old. 

Thanks,

Sarah


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

You can only seriously scaring your bunnies by picking them up! Please avoid it as such as possible. They are prey animals so they feel as if you're going to attack them. They probably think of you as a predator. 

They must have at least 36 square foot space ALL of the time. Ideally more space. If they don't, they most likely have something called 'hutch aggression.' Do they live in or outside? 

Their diet needs to be 90% hay, so it must be offered unlimitedly.


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## Dragonflydays (Dec 6, 2012)

They have unlimited hay. I just meant I always am giving them lots of fresh. They live inside in a very large cage but generally have at least 4-5 hours of running around the whole apartment each day. I live in Florida and do not have anything outdoors cool enough for them to go outside except on the screened patio. We also grow them fresh grass on the patio with no pesticides. 

They are actually good about being held. I don't just grab them. We talk to them, pet them, relax them, and then pick them up and hold until they indicate they are finished being held and then put them down. They have been held since they were tiny. I don't approach them from the front or back, but from the side where they can see me. 

Their cage is about 2 feet by 4 and a half feet and a split level (no hocks on wires though!) with a burrow area where they can hide. They are usually only caged overnight. If it will solve grumpy problem I will get an even BIGGER hutch/cage, but why does he act the same way even after having the run of an 1100 sq. ft. apartment all day?

Sarah


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## Hel_79 (Jun 14, 2011)

My main thought is that they simply can't come and go as they please or follow their natural instincts. Rabbits are most active at dawn and dusk. By letting them out of their cage for a few hours a day, and then putting them back in it, you're enforcing an unnatural routine upon them. And they then don't have enough space once they're caged again. 

As for picking them up...it's easy to think an animal 'likes' something when they're either scared (submitting or going still) or simply tolerating. Very few rabbits enjoy humans handling them and picking them up.

Hope I don't sound too critical. It's great that you are aware they need space, and they're not permanently caged, and that they have plenty of hay, things to chew, etc.


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## Dragonflydays (Dec 6, 2012)

I can't give them outings at dawn but most of their outings include dusk time. 4 hours is usually the minimum they're out--other days they come and go as they please for up to 10. 

So is the bottom line that the cage needs to be bigger? He still grumps around when he has all this roaming room. He also grunts when he sees me petting Oreo (the female). He un-grumps as soon as I bring out any treats and turns into a giant sweetheart and climbs onto me. Doesn't seem like he sees me as a predator if he's willing to climb on me to get what he wants.

Sarah


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

Dragonflydays said:


> They have unlimited hay. I just meant I always am giving them lots of fresh. They live inside in a very large cage but generally have at least 4-5 hours of running around the whole apartment each day. I live in Florida and do not have anything outdoors cool enough for them to go outside except on the screened patio. We also grow them fresh grass on the patio with no pesticides.
> 
> They are actually good about being held. I don't just grab them. We talk to them, pet them, relax them, and then pick them up and hold until they indicate they are finished being held and then put them down. They have been held since they were tiny. I don't approach them from the front or back, but from the side where they can see me.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but a 2x4ft cage is no where near big enough for one rabbit to live, never mind two. They need at least 36 square foot _*ALL*_ of the time. (This would be a 6x2x2 ft hutch/cage attached to a 6x4x2ft run). Ideally, the bigger, the better. He's grumpy because you are changing his natural behaviours. Rabbits are most active at dawn and dusk, when you most likely have them shut away. 

Rabbits don't like being picked up and they aren't the 'cuddly' pets everyone wants them to be. It's not in their nature to be handled. They are just scared stiff, which is why they appear to like it.


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

This is as close as I can find to a 6ft run in the US. It's only 5ft which is NOT big enough by its self. You will need another run to attach to it, or get two of the same!  Two as these would be 60 square foot space!  
Amazon.com: Advantek The Courtyard Rabbit Run, Auburn: Pet Supplies


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## Hel_79 (Jun 14, 2011)

It sounds as if you have established a close bond with your rabbits.
My bun climbs on me quite happily to get to food. But he does not enjoy being stroked, petted or picked up. I don't feel a need to force it, so I don't. 

Hopefully more space will improve your situation.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Rather than a bigger "cage" can you section off an area of your apartment? Do you have a room you can bunny proof or can you get some puppy pen panels and make a pen they can be in 24/7 out of those? You could build it with the cage they have now inside it as a "bed"  Alternatively a 48" dog crate(with attatched puppy pen) would be ideal. 
Most, if not all "rabbit cages" readily available just won't be big enough.

Its a common mistake for people to make with the space, and we can't guarantee that he will definately be less obviously "grumpy" but he certinally should be happier 

Just give him a check over health wise aswell to make sure he doesnt have something that is bothering him, teeth are a common one.

Like this  http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12404126&f=PAD/psNotAvailInUS/No, if you can fix it to a wall on one side or put it in a corner so its 2 walls, then even more space


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## Zow (Sep 18, 2012)

Hector has a 6x2x2 cage that he spends they day or morning, and overnight in (depending on the day) and he comes out in the evening and he's fine, so I doubt it's that there's not enough space, though I'd probably upgrade to a 6x2x2 cage just because it's nicer for them


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## Dragonflydays (Dec 6, 2012)

Zow,

Can you find your cage online or maybe even on amazon.com? I'd like to take a look at it.


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

Zow said:


> Hector has a 6x2x2 cage that he spends they day or morning, and overnight in (depending on the day) and he comes out in the evening and he's fine, so I doubt it's that there's not enough space, though I'd probably upgrade to a 6x2x2 cage just because it's nicer for them


That's only 12 foot square space for most of the time!  Please attach another 6x4x2 run to it so he has 36 square foot space ALL of the time?


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## Dragonflydays (Dec 6, 2012)

I've had buns for 20+ years and spoken to tons of other bunny people, including very good reputable breeders and I never once heard the 36 sq ft rule. Where are you getting this information? It's not possible when you have a pair and you keep them indoors. I want to give them more space when they have to be caged but 36 square per bun is unreasonable =\ So is not holding or petting your bunnies. Nobody would adopt a bunny if they thought they could never be able to do those things with the pet. 

I've increased my buns outing to 12 hours per day. 

I still want to see some sources for this 36 rule.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2012)

Dragonflydays said:


> I've had buns for 20+ years and spoken to tons of other bunny people, including very good reputable breeders and I never once heard the 36 sq ft rule. Where are you getting this information? It's not possible when you have a pair and you keep them indoors. I want to give them more space when they have to be caged but 36 square per bun is unreasonable =\ So is not holding or petting your bunnies. Nobody would adopt a bunny if they thought they could never be able to do those things with the pet.
> 
> I've increased my buns outing to 12 hours per day.
> 
> I still want to see some sources for this 36 rule.


A Hutch is Not Enough - Rabbit Welfare Assocation & Fund (RWAF)

Things move on over the years, it is no longer acceptable to house rabbits alone in tiny hutches anymore because we now know what damage it can do.
I have a rabbit here that has to have daily medication to relieve the arthritic pain caused from being kept in too small a hutch.

Incidentally I have 8 house rabbits all kept in groups and not one of them are caged. Rabbits are not pick up and cuddle pets, there are some exceptions to the rule but most like affection at their level on their terms. Lots of people adopt knowing this information 

The behaviour you're describing sounds like territorial/hutch aggression, as your rabbits are inside you could upgrade your enclosure to a 48" dog crate with an attached puppy pen, like this:

There is a 3.6kg german lop inside to give you a judge of the size.

















This will give them space to play and run, it means you know they are safe when you are asleep and I can pretty much guarantee that your buck will calm down.


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## Louiseandfriends (Aug 21, 2011)

Dragonflydays said:


> I've had buns for 20+ years and spoken to tons of other bunny people, including very good reputable breeders and I never once heard the 36 sq ft rule. Where are you getting this information? It's not possible when you have a pair and you keep them indoors. I want to give them more space when they have to be caged but 36 square per bun is unreasonable =\ So is not holding or petting your bunnies. Nobody would adopt a bunny if they thought they could never be able to do those things with the pet.
> 
> I've increased my buns outing to 12 hours per day.
> 
> I still want to see some sources for this 36 rule.


People in the US generally aren't very aware of the welfare of rabbits. There standards are much lower than they are in the UK.

It is PERFECTLY possible! You can dedicate a whole bun-proof room or just in part of your room. It's 36 square per a pair.


















It takes a rabbit 2ft per an unrestricted hop. a 6ft hutch allows 3 unresisted hops. Plus, some width is nice to allow them to lie in any direction. Height allows them to stand upright.










36 square foot is the SAA rule (6x2 hutch and 6x4 run) Love Rabbits | Society for Abandoned Animals The Rabbit Welfare's is even *higher*! They say a 6x2 hutch with a 8x4 run (44 square foot).A Hutch is Not Enough - Rabbit Welfare Assocation & Fund (RWAF)

Believe what you want, but we are trying to help your rabbit live the best life possible with you! xxx


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

You only have to watch wild bunnies to see how naturally active they are. 

Add to that the fact that they are crepuscular - ie. active at dusk and dawn - then it's easy to see why it is now acknowledged (over here at least) that rabbits need a large space - all the time - not when the owner thinks of it, at a time that is likely to be a naturally less active time.

We too have kept rabbits for many, many years, but we are constanlty updating and improving their accommodation in line with current recommendations. 

Nowadays so much more is known about bunnies needs.

our local rescue asks for a permanent space of a minimum of 50 square foot for the avarage pair of rabbits, and will not rehome to less.

Many people over here create bunny rooms, or the buns live alongside them. We have several house bunnies, all of which have plenty of space to run.


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## Summersky (Aug 11, 2012)

Can I suggest you go on the RWAF website - they run a campaign called "A hutch is not enough" which says it all.

A Hutch is Not Enough - Rabbit Welfare Assocation & Fund (RWAF)

Do watch the video - it makes things very clear.

You clearly love your buns, but knowledge is power, and you could really enrich their lives more.

Many buns love to have their noses rubbed, and will seek you out to sit with - but I am sure you know that they are a prey species, ie hunted in the wild- and their basic instincts remain, meaning that they will often avoid being picked up/held, preferring to come in their own time.


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## Zow (Sep 18, 2012)

Dragonflydays said:


> Zow,
> 
> Can you find your cage online or maybe even on amazon.com? I'd like to take a look at it.


It's not a cage you can buy, it's a 3x2x2 dog crate and a 3.5x2.5x2.5 "run" area made from c&c grids, but he has access to that all day


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## Zow (Sep 18, 2012)

Louiseandfriends said:


> That's only 12 foot square space for most of the time!  Please attach another 6x4x2 run to it so he has 36 square foot space ALL of the time?


In short, no. He is a house rabbit who lives in my room with me, there isn't the space full stop to have a 6x4x2 run attached. He gets 2-3 hours out in my room during the day, and a good 5-6 hours in the evening, please also bear in mind that he is a teeny tiny little mini lop, he can do about 5 or 6 hops from one end of his cage to the other, and he has levels in there as well


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