# Feeling a bit let down by stud owner



## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

feeling a bit let down the owner of stud I used but might be me reading to much into it. I took my girt to stud on January 1st , I paid the 250 upfront and seemed really nice and very supportive but when I went to pick her up 5 days later I knocked at the door she opened the door and my cat was sat ready in her basket and passed to me . She didn't say anything so asked how it went and her reply was will have to wait and see. 

My cat was acting like she was coming into call last week so messaged her to say and she said all her boys were booked so couldn't use him and then said her girl was in with the stud I used and that she was then going away after that but would be bk on the 26th . I did say that I was a bit concerned that the same might happen next time she calls and she said she can't predict the future and can not turn customers away if my girls not there which I understand . 

So cats now calling and I thought great she's back of holiday so messaged her to say hi are you back as my girl is calling and she said I've just landed but I'm having to go away again but will let you know if I'm back else will have to be on next call . 

Just feel like this could happen again and again and might not get my second mating and hate having to leave her keep calling


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I know it's less than helpful to you, me saying this after the event, but it seems to be becoming more common that some stud owners are asking for payment of the stud fee up front - ie when dropping the girl off initially. At one time this was virtually unheard of and is still not common practice amongst more ethical breeders/stud owners.

Having paid the fee and the stud owner now apparently finding herself in a situation where she cannot take your girl back on her next call there isn't a lot you can do other than go elsewhere and forfeit the fee or just wait on this stud owner. Having already taken a particular girl into stud (and especially with the fee having been paid in advance) any stud owner should be making that particular queen a priority (should she re-call) over other visiting queens and indeed the use of the stud with their own girls. So yes, I too would be feeling frustrated in the situation. That she claims to be away (more than once)... well, that's anyone's guess. If you do decide to go elsewhere I would strongly advise that it be to someone who preferably undertakes supervised (or at least witnessed) matings, only takes the fee after such and who will provide you in writing with clear terms of what is being offered should your girl fail to conceive from the first or subsequent matings.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Thankyou for your reply and I'm am getting very frustrated about the situation , when I first contacted her she seemed really nice but now if I text and say can I have a chat she's to busy to chat . Just feel like she kind of talked me into taking her by saying things she said and how she would be on the phone 24/7 to give me advice but never can I talk to her . I have searched her on the Internet and has few complaints against her . Feel annoyed with my self now for rushing into it


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Hopefully, she will come through for you (in her own sweet tIme!) but yes, her attitude sounds very poor now that she has your stud fee. Sometimes in life, and certainly with breeding cats, we learn by bad experience (that was the case for me many years ago) and IN my experience of this kind of situation, don't be a wallflower. You'll be polite of course but be persistent; anyone that 'flippant' I feel often finds it too easy to ignore/put aside an obligation to someone who is being TOO understanding. Though if it drags on and on you may well decide to chalk it up to experience.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Thanks for listening to me rant haha . I am staying very nice and told her I totally understand but don't want to leave my girl keep calling . Well all I can do is be patient and see if she takes her on her next call else I will just give up on her


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

It's not the best experience you've had for a first time breeder  I think it's very unethical of the stud owner not to find the time to talk to you and discuss bringing your girl back - she could call you back or email you if she's been too busy to chat when you have called. It isn't good for your girl to keep calling and I think you are right to be finding a different stud owner if the original one can't or won't take your girl next time.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

I messaged her to ask if she's back tomorrow her reply was No I will let you know when I'm back home again to repeat the mating but she's just updated her ad for her studs so if your not home why advertise them , I hate doubting people but just have a bad feeling about her


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

How did you find her? A good way to meet breeders is by showing, you get to know other breeders, see their cats and know the type you want to mate your girl to.

Is the breeder of your girl not mentoring you? She should also be helping to find a suitable stud.

When I was using outside boys the contract covered live kittens as the result, not just a mating, if you paid for a mating then technically that's what you got.
Hopefully things work out for you.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Having already taken a particular girl into stud (and especially with the fee having been paid in advance) any stud owner should be making that particular queen a priority (should she re-call) over other visiting queens and indeed the use of the stud with their own girls.


But how would that work? You can't just not use a boy until you've heard that a previous queen is pregnant, that's simply not practical. I think as a person bringing a queen to stud you have to accept that he may not always be available when your queen is ready. It is frustrating when this happens though and you do begin to have dark thoughts (I know, I've been there).

I do agree though that this incident is all very odd. At the very least you'd expect the stud owner to be happy to talk to the OP, even if she was going away surely a bit more of an explanation would help the OP decide what to do with her girl.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

I do totally understand that a stud may not always be available and this is a situation that can't be helped but I think I'm more frustrated with her attitude and the fact she's had my money so not fussed to try and help me


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

No, of course, it doesn't always work perfectly and however fair you try to play, someone may end up a little frustrated and disappointed. At the time I did have studs available to outside queens I wouldn't have taken them in quick succession and that negated the overlap/timing issues to some extent. Matings were always supervised/witnessed and if I had arranged for another queen to come to stud a few weeks later, I would always have let them know that there was a possibility of having to delay due to the need to take back the previous girl if she recalled. In my experience, breeders had chosen to use my stud for specific reasons; not just any stud who might be available and on their doorstep so, for the most part, they were prepared to wait a few extra weeks if need be.

What I would never do is take a stud fee upfront, choose to go away on multiple last minute holidays, take in other queens or put my own girls with my stud when I knew I possibly had an existing obligation to someone. Anything else is usually a case of money grabbing and not managing studs in the way they should be managed.



Tigermoon said:


> But how would that work? You can't just not use a boy until you've heard that a previous queen is pregnant, that's simply not practical. I think as a person bringing a queen to stud you have to accept that he may not always be available when your queen is ready. It is frustrating when this happens though and you do begin to have dark thoughts (I know, I've been there).


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> No, of course, it doesn't always work perfectly and however fair you try to play, someone may end up a little frustrated and disappointed. At the time I did have studs available to outside queens I wouldn't have taken them in quick succession and that negated the overlap/timing issues to some extent. Matings were always supervised/witnessed and if I had arranged for another queen to come to stud a few weeks later, I would always have let them know that there was a possibility of having to delay due to the need to take back the previous girl if she recalled. In my experience, breeders had chosen to use my stud for specific reasons; not just any stud who might be available and on their doorstep so, for the most part, they were prepared to wait a few extra weeks if need be.
> 
> What I would never do is take a stud fee upfront, choose to go away on multiple last minute holidays, take in other queens or put my own girls with my stud when I knew I possibly had an existing obligation to someone. Anything else is usually a case of money grabbing and not managing studs in the way they should be managed.


I don't know if I posted in an earlier post but the reason she said she had to go away was a family reason which I don't want to mention , I just feel I'm no longer a paying customer and what really annoyed me was the fact I was meant to get a second mating but she was using her own girl but if someone wanted to use her boy and pay 250 I bet she would have not used her own girls


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@little mo - if you made a verbal or written contract with the stud owner that your girl was to be allowed 2 matings if the first one didn't result in pregnancy, then you are entitled for your girl to be mated a second time. A verbal agreement carries almost as much weight in law as a written one.

Although the contract may not give an exact time frame for a second mating, a court would expect it to be "within reasonable time" of the first mating, i.e. not months later, but perhaps within a month might be considered reasonable by most breeders? That would be something for you to agree at the time of making the contract and paying the stud owner.

If the stud owner is still being unco-operative I would write to her and politely but firmly remind her of her obligations made under the agreement with you. Your letter (or email) should be business-like without apology or accusation, but matter-of-factly stating the terms of your agreement and your expectations, and that you wish her to advise you from what date her stud boy will be available for the second mating.

Keep copies of all correspondence you have with her, and preferably conduct communications with her in writing, not on the phone.

If the agreement (contract) you made with the stud owner is not fulfilled because she fails to keep her side of it, then you would be entitled to ask for your money back, (or part of it) or to sue her in the Small Claims Court.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

I know nothing about cat breeding, but I assume that this is a pedigree cat - could you report her behaviour to the equivalent of the Kennel Club? 

Like others on here, I think that her constant unavailability is suspicious - the least she could do is offer you your stud fee (or a proportion of it) back if she can't accept your cat in a reasonable period of time.

It might be worth making enquiries to see if this is common practice with her. (I know you said you'd been online and there were some complaints). It also makes me wonder if she even put your queen in with the stud in the first place, of if she has taken your fee, put one of her own queens in with him (as she seems to give them priority) and just left your little lass in her basket for five days!


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

lostbear said:


> I know nothing about cat breeding, but I assume that this is a pedigree cat - could you report her behaviour to the equivalent of the Kennel Club?
> 
> Like others on here, I think that her constant unavailability is suspicious - the least she could do is offer you your stud fee (or a proportion of it) back if she can't accept your cat in a reasonable period of time.
> 
> It might be worth making enquiries to see if this is common practice with her. (I know you said you'd been online and there were some complaints). It also makes me wonder if she even put your queen in with the stud in the first place, of if she has taken your fee, put one of her own queens in with him (as she seems to give them priority) and just left your little lass in her basket for five days!


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Really want to thank you all for your reply as I don't think it's just me now , I do have a written contract to say I get another mating and if he's not available she has to offer me another stud but they were all booked and one of them is the dad of my girl so couldn't use him anyway


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

little mo said:


> Really want to thank you all for your reply as I don't think it's just me now , I do have a written contract to say I get another mating and if he's not available she has to offer me another stud but they were all booked and one of them is the dad of my girl so couldn't use him anyway


Also I do wonder if she did put her with him , he's got to date 100% first time pregnancy record


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> What I would never do is take a stud fee upfront, choose to go away on multiple last minute holidays, take in other queens or put my own girls with my stud when I knew I possibly had an existing obligation to someone. Anything else is usually a case of money grabbing and not managing studs in the way they should be managed.


I agree, this is a worrying development to my mind. I've never taken a fee up front, I've wanted to see the girl mated first.



little mo said:


> I don't know if I posted in an earlier post but the reason she said she had to go away was a family reason which I don't want to mention , I just feel I'm no longer a paying customer and what really annoyed me was the fact I was meant to get a second mating but she was using her own girl but if someone wanted to use her boy and pay 250 I bet she would have not used her own girls


Hmm, no this wasn't mentioned earlier that I could find, and it does put a different complexion on things. If a member of her family has been suddenly taken poorly and perhaps is in hospital then inevitably you and your girl will be a low priority.

At the end of the day, my girls will always have priority when it comes to my boy. If my girl called and I needed to get her mated then I would put her in with him. If a visiting queen started to call a day or two later, well she'd have to wait until her next call. If the reverse happened, then my girl would have to wait until her next call while the visiting girl was with my boy. Having said that I don't do stud work for visiting queens any more though as I've found its not worth the hassle.

You mention that she owns the father of your girl, is she therefore the breeder of your girl?


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

The lady I got her from comes from Bournemouth but she had used one of her studs


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

little mo said:


> The lady I got her from comes from Bournemouth but she had used one of her studs


Someone has also messaged to to say she had a few problems with the sam


little mo said:


> The lady I got her from comes from Bournemouth but she had used one of her studs


also someone has messaged me to say she had a few issues with this breeder never being available when wanting to go to the cattery


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Has she given you any firm indication or promise that she will ensure being able to take back your girl for mating to either boy on her next call? (ie the call after this one).

If not, perhaps it's time to write to her formally, briefly and politely to ask for the return of your stud fee as she hasn't been able to meet the terms of her own contract.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Has she given you any firm indication or promise that she will ensure being able to take back your girl for mating to either boy on her next call? (ie the call after this one).
> 
> If not, perhaps it's time to write to her formally, briefly and politely to ask for the return of your stud fee as she hasn't been able to meet the terms of her own contract.


She said she can't predict the future and can't turn away customers if my girl isn't there but will try


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Looking at it another way, though I know it's very frustrating and that she has been less than helpful, etc, it is barely a month since the first, unsuccessful visit which isn't really an excessive period of time (though, honestly, I do well understand your frustration with her attitide) it's probably well worth waiting for your girl's next call and taking her back. Are you able to pinpoint a pattern to her calling so that you may tell the stud owner of the possible/most likely timing of her next call?


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> Looking at it another way, though I know it's very frustrating and that she has been less than helpful, etc, it is barely a month since the first, unsuccessful visit which isn't really an excessive period of time (though, honestly, I do well understand your frustration with her attitide) it's probably well worth waiting for your girl's next call and taking her back. Are you able to pinpoint a pattern to her calling so that you may tell the stud owner of the possible/most likely timing of her next call?


Just to update as I have been talking to someone on here who has been very helpful. Mia is not registered which this breeder was totally aware of but told me she has a list of 400 people who want the studs kittens registered or not registered , she told me my girl did not need blood group tested as she knows my girls blood group from her parents . Yes I should have looked into it more but spoke to her on several occasions and she reassured me that she would have beautiful kittens and how they don't have any problems birthing , I was so unsure about taking my girl to her stud as I'm a person who worrys but trusted her advice . I never wanted to be a breeder but just wanted to let her have a litter for the experience but now feel like a fool !!!!.


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

There's no need to feel like a fool but cats do not need to experience having a litter. The best thing for your girl is to get her spayed and enjoy life with her. The breeder obviously just wanted to grab your money. She should not be accepting queens to her stud which are unregistered neither are they health checked.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Unfortunately the GCCF allows studs to accept unregistered queens, it's only queens not registered active that's against the rules & law.  However you are quite right that she doesn't need in any way to have a litter. We have no idea from the OP as to what health testing if any has taken place. FeLV/FIV snap test? PKD? Hope so.


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> Unfortunately the GCCF allows studs to accept unregistered queens, it's only queens not registered active that's against the rules & law.  However you are quite right that she doesn't need in any way to have a litter. We have no idea from the OP as to what health testing if any has taken place. FeLV/FIV snap test? PKD? Hope so.


No health tests have been done by the owner of the queen. The breeder in question was recommended to her by someone else.

My mentor told me that unregistered queens were not allowed to go to a GCCF registered stud, maybe she told me that so that I didn't use a stud whose breeder allowed any queen to use him?


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

My main interest is my girl !!!, yes I went into this with no experience but spoke to the stud owner and felt very confident that I was doing the right thing .?as I said I'm by no means a person who wanted to breed my cat to make money but was more for the experience . Yes I did make a mistake but was so unsure about it but felt like she did kind of pushed me into making a quick decision which I have evidence o my phone from the messages she sent me . My girl will be booked in to be spayed as soon as she comes out of heat . Feel totally let down by this person who makes out she is so nice and caring when all she has done has taken 250 pounds of me !!!!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Ask for your money back. You probably won't get it but if you don't ask you certainly won't


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Ask for your money back. You probably won't get it but if you don't ask you certainly won't


Even if I got half , just looked her up on google ,,,, shocking !!!!


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> Unfortunately the GCCF allows studs to accept unregistered queens, it's only queens not registered active that's against the rules & law.


Hmm. Gccf fined a friend of mine for accepting an unregistered Queen in to stud ... damn right too imo.

@little mo you've been stung but learned a valuable, if rather expensive lesson. Unfortunately there are people out there looking to part you from your money. Chalk it up to experience and enjoy your girl as a lovely neutered pet.


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

Have you go a copy of your contract with her stating the terms of using her stud?


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Tigermoon said:


> Hmm. Gccf fined a friend of mine for accepting an unregistered Queen in to stud ... damn right too imo.
> 
> @little mo you've been stung but learned a valuable, if rather expensive lesson. Unfortunately there are people out there looking to part you from your money. Chalk it up to experience and enjoy your girl as a lovely neutered pet.


I intend to do just that , but she has already been investigated and should not keep getting away with what's she's doing . Money grabber !!!!


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

little mo said:


> I intend to do just that , but she has already been investigated and should not keep getting away with what's she's doing . Money grabber !!!!


Yeah 


MissPink said:


> Have you go a copy of your contract with her stating the terms of using her stud?


yeah I have a contract


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

OS, are you sure on that? I thought the rules said that studs were only allowed to accept registered queens, and those on the active register, otherwise GCCF could impose sanctions.

To the OP, did your girl's breeder know you were taking her to stud? a bit naughty to do this as you bought her as a pet. As you've learned, most breeders who will accept unregistered or nonactive queens are unethical, so not worth doing. If you want to breed, buy a breeding cat and do the thing properly with good, proper support from a mentor to help you avoid situations like this. Glad to hear your girl is getting spayed.


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

carly87 said:


> To the OP, did your girl's breeder know you were taking her to stud? a bit naughty to do this as you bought her as a pet. As you've learned, most breeders who will accept unregistered or nonactive queens are unethical, so not worth doing. If you want to breed, buy a breeding cat and do the thing properly with good, proper support from a mentor to help you avoid situations like this. Glad to hear your girl is getting spayed.


Mia is not registered with the GCCF. The mother of Mia was on the non active register.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

The lady I got her from is a really nice girl so don't have any problem with her. . Mia's mum was registered but on the non active but had also used the same stud owner to mate her girl


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

little mo said:


> yeah I have a contract


If the contract states the terms and conditions of using her stud and she has broken them you can issue small claims proceedings against them. I am sure that the GCCF do not allow unregistered queens to use active registered studs, you can ring GCCF and see how you go about making a complaint.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

I wish I had looked more into it but to late for that now and yes I may have lost my money but be it a lesson learnt but do not want to sit back and watch her doing what she had done to me to other people . My main concern now is my little girl


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

little mo said:


> The lady I got her from is a really nice girl so don't have any problem with her. . Mia's mum was registered but on the non active but had also used the same stud owner to mate her girl


That is a big no no, and a massive red flag she is less than scrupulous and nice as she is, so is the breeder of your girl. I wonder is she charged you top whack for an unregistered kitten? No need to answer, but many do!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

carly87 said:


> OS, are you sure on that? I thought the rules said that studs were only allowed to accept registered queens, and those on the active register, otherwise GCCF could impose sanctions.
> 
> <snip>.


Rule 3g only mentions registered queens


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> Rule 3g only mentions registered queens[/QUOTE
> 
> Surely the rule 3G means that if a cat is not registered with GCCF but with another organisation I.e TICA/FIFE they can still be accepted to a GCCF stud?


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Situations like this make me eternally glad that I spay and neuter everything that leaves me! Breeding of unregistered cats is a no, simple as that. I'm guessing you didn't enquire why the mum was on the non-active and considered by her breeder to be unsuitable for breeding? Then you took her back to the same lady who had allowed a non-active girl to breed with her boys, with a list of apparently 400 waiting if I remember rightly, some crazy figure like that anyway, and you're surprised that she diddled you? I'm not.

You could and probably should start a small claims proceeding. You should also report this lady to the GCCF, providing your contract and agreement with her, and also your girl's details to show that she was sired from an unregistered mother mating with a registered stud. This breeder doesn't deserve to keep going if she's accepting unregistered moggs from all over the place. Does she even snap test for FIV and FeLV? Did you before and after the mating? Does she allow a suitable quarantine period in between visiting queens to ensure disease isn't passed around? Does she prevent them from sharing litter trays etc when mating to minimise the spread? Guessing the answer to all of his is no. If you're unsure, I would advise that you have a snap test done at the point of spay to be sure she hasn't picked anything up.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Miss Pink, that's the way I interpreted it too.


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

I have just got off the phone to my mentor and she 100% certain that the GCCF impose sanctions/penalties/suspension to breeders who allow there studs to be mated with an unregistered queen. Rule 3G is as I thought, unregistered queens are not to be mated with a GCCF stud however queens registered with another organisation can be mated to a GCCF stud.


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

I would advise the OP to contact GCCF to raise a formal complaint and definitely consider asking for your money back and if need be inform the breeder you intend to issue court proceedings. After looking up this breeder she has no end of complaints about her and was investigated by trading standards at her local council. She has a dozen queens on her website and I doubt they are tested. This breeder really needs to be investigated by the GCCF and hopefully they will suspend her GCCF prefix.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If 3g is meant to exclude unregistered queens it should be spelt out clearly which it isn't


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> If 3g is meant to exclude unregistered queens it should be spelt out clearly which it isn't


BTW I am feeling left out - most of you seem to know who she is! Would someone care to pm me?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Going off-topic, but this is the exact wording of 3G:*
"Prior to accepting a queen for mating, the owner of the stud shall establish that the queen is not registered on the Non-Active register"

IMHO it should say "Prior to accepting a queen for mating, the owner of the stud shall establish that the queen is registered on the Active register" which is saying they can only accept registered active queens. The actual working doesn't clarify about unregistered queens.

However in the OP's case it seems clear the stud owner is accepting queens registered non-active which is a clear breach.

* PS I omitted the bit about queens from other registries.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> That is a big no no, and a massive red flag she is less than scrupulous and nice as she is, so is the breeder of your girl. I wonder is she charged you top whack for an unregistered kitten? No need to answer, but many do!


I paid 400 pounds for her with her pedigree papers and jabs


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm going to speak to gccf and see what they advice me to do 

Thankyou all


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ If 3g is meant to exclude unregistered queens it should be spelt out clearly which it isn't_
It isn't because the GCCF has no jurisdiction over cats which aren't registered with it. The non-active register is for a breeder to specify a cat shouldn't be bred from and it is these wishes a stud owner is required to respect. If the girl isn't registered at all then there can be no offence because GCCF rules can't apply to an unregistered cat.

I'm interested in the specific details if someone has truly been disciplined for allowing an unregistered queen to be serviced by their stud, mainly because I don't understand how or why the GCCF would even come to know about it. What if a stud gets loose or is let loose because of a fire or something - is the owner held responsible for every subsequent kitten in the area for a period of time and fined by the GCCF? I can see it happening if there's a complaint as there's likely to be here but I don't think rule 3g can be the one applied.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> _ If 3g is meant to exclude unregistered queens it should be spelt out clearly which it isn't_
> It isn't because the GCCF has no jurisdiction over cats which aren't registered with it. The non-active register is for a breeder to specify a cat shouldn't be bred from and it is these wishes a stud owner is required to respect. If the girl isn't registered at all then there can be no offence because GCCF rules can't apply to an unregistered cat.
> 
> I'm interested in the specific details if someone has truly been disciplined for allowing an unregistered queen to be serviced by their stud, mainly because I don't understand how or why the GCCF would even come to know about it. What if a stud gets loose or is let loose because of a fire or something - is the owner held responsible for every subsequent kitten in the area for a period of time and fined by the GCCF? I can see it happening if there's a complaint as there's likely to be here but I don't think rule 3g can be the one applied.


They have jurisdiction over cats registered with them, so I see no reason it can't be an offence to accept an unregistered girl to a GCCF registered stud. Your question about 'got loose' is a red herring IMHO - in that case the stud owner hasn't accepted the unregistered girl in to stud.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

I want to draft up a letter to send to stud owner and will send recorded delivery but not really sure what I should write


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

anither concern is blood testing , I told her I wanted to get my girls blood group tested as had read how seriou it could be , she assured me 100% that I did not need to do this as her boy was blood group A and so would her mum have been else the kittens would not have survived and said its impossible for my girl to be any other blood group but A ?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_They have jurisdiction over cats registered with them, so I see no reason it can't be an offence to accept an unregistered girl to a GCCF registered stud_
Still very interested in how it comes to light. How does the GCCF disciplinary committee find out? How did they find out in the case someone has stated? There has to more to the story than simply accepting an unregistered girl for GCCF disciplinary action to result.

As far as I'm aware I'm entitled to allow my boy to mate with a local mog if I so wish. There are very limited circumstances in which I'd consider it advisable of course but I think there have been new breeds created in this manner.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Your cat's mum was taken to a group A boy and all the kittens survived. If the mother was B, there would have probably been problems as when a group B queen goes to a group A stud there will probably be some group A kittens, and those are the ones with the problems. However testing a BSH girl BEFORE she goes to stud should be done, for what it costs, unless you know for sure what the parents are.

http://icatcare.org/advice/cat-health/feline-blood-groups-and-blood-incompatibility


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> _They have jurisdiction over cats registered with them, so I see no reason it can't be an offence to accept an unregistered girl to a GCCF registered stud_
> Still very interested in how it comes to light. How does the GCCF disciplinary committee find out? How did they find out in the case someone has stated? There has to more to the story than simply accepting an unregistered girl for GCCF disciplinary action to result.


The same way as they find out about other transgressions - someone tells them. The story you refer to might be one of those internet Urban myths.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

little mo said:


> Also I do wonder if she did put her with him , he's got to date 100% first time pregnancy record


She says he's got a 100% record... If he is doing plenty of outside work that's very unlikely as some matings never produce kittens.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Rule 3g has been clarified a number of times by GCCF. Havoc is correct in that the rule does not apply to unregistered queens; there is only transgression of the rule if a stud owner takes in a girl registered non-active with GCCF or whose registration has been endorsed 'not for breeding' by another registering body.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Rule 3g has been clarified a number of times by GCCF. Havoc is correct in that the rule does not apply to unregistered queens; there is only transgression of the rule if a stud owner takes in a girl registered non-active with GCCF or whose registration has been endorsed 'not for breeding' by another registering body.


Shucks.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

so really I don't have a case against her


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## MissPink (Mar 6, 2015)

You may not have a case with reporting her to the GCCF but you can still issue court proceedings against her for failing to adhere to the terms and conditions in her contract


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

MissPink said:


> You may not have a case with reporting her to the GCCF but you can still issue court proceedings against her for failing to adhere to the terms and conditions in her contract


It said in the contract if he was not available she has to offer me on other stud which she didn't as said they were all booked but don't believe her . Also another think is she has 3 litters advertised but when I went there she said she had none but they would have been born when I was there . I don't want to involve the other lady but her queen was on the non active but she still let her use her stud


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

They sound as bad as one another but frankly my main gripe would be with the person who sold you your girl who has, quite blatantly, sought out a stud owner who is happy to take all-comers for the purpose of breeding from a girl who was sold to her on the non-active register, not for breeding. If I were this original breeder I would be mortified.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Are we sure this is actually a GCCF registered stud?


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> Still very interested in how it comes to light. How does the GCCF disciplinary committee find out? How did they find out in the case someone has stated? There has to more to the story than simply accepting an unregistered girl for GCCF disciplinary action to result.





OrientalSlave said:


> The same way as they find out about other transgressions - someone tells them. The story you refer to might be one of those internet Urban myths.


As it was my friend that this happened to, I feel I can answer you question here @havoc, it definitely isn't an urban myth in this case @OrientalSlave 

She accepted in to one of her studs a queen which was either not registered at all or was on the non-active register, (I was told the cat was NOT registered). She never really made any secret of her practices and someone promptly went straight to the GCCF and told them. £50 fine, slap on the wrist, do not do it again, do not pass go etc. etc. Not that it made the slightest bit of difference to her but hey-ho!



havoc said:


> Are we sure this is actually a GCCF registered stud?


That's another good question .... judging from what has come out so far, it does make you wonder!!


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Tigermoon said:


> As it was my friend that this happened to, I feel I can answer you question here @havoc, it definitely isn't an urban myth in this case @OrientalSlave
> 
> She accepted in to one of her studs a queen which was either not registered at all or was on the non-active register, (I was told the cat was NOT registered). She never really made any secret of her practices and someone promptly went straight to the GCCF and told them. £50 fine, slap on the wrist, do not do it again, do not pass go etc. etc. Not that it made the slightest bit of difference to her but hey-ho!
> 
> at the end of the day I need to put it down to experience , she knew I was not 100% sure and felt like she kind off pressured me by telling me I should be listening to her advice as being an experienced breeder . I prob would not have douted her until the way she was when I collected my girl it was only then that I searched her name on the Internet and read things about her


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

at the end of the day I will put it down to experience .. A bad one at that


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_ She accepted in to one of her studs a queen which was either not registered at all or was on the non-active register, (I was told the cat was NOT registered). She never really made any secret of her practices and someone promptly went straight to the GCCF and told them. £50 fine, slap on the wrist, do not do it again, do not pass go etc. etc. Not that it made the slightest bit of difference to her but hey-ho!_
I'd bet it was a non-active registered queen rather than not registered. I'm still surprised that anyone gets caught on this unless someone stupidly attempts to register kittens or the owner of the queen complains. That I can imagine. A fine resulting purely from a third party report is less likely. The GCCF wouldn't fine someone just on a piece of gossip and presumably a straight denial would stop any further action.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_so really I don't have a case against her_
In your case you could possibly open a right royal can of worms. If, as you say, you have a pedigree certificate stating the mum of your cat is on the non-active register and the dad was one of this woman's stud boys then you have written evidence of deliberate and ongoing shenanigans. This will only be of interest to the GCCF if those stud boys are GCCF registered. Even if this is a GCCF matter they can't get you your money back. You may need to start a case in the County Court for that and it's something you should think of doing sooner rather than later.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> _so really I don't have a case against her_
> In your case you could possibly open a right royal can of worms. If, as you say, you have a pedigree certificate stating the mum of your cat is on the non-active register and the dad was one of this woman's stud boys then you have written evidence of deliberate and ongoing shenanigans. This will only be of interest to the GCCF if those stud boys are GCCF registered. Even if this is a GCCF matter they can't get you your money back. You may need to start a case in the County Court for that and it's something you should think of doing sooner rather than later.


I do have proof that this mating took place as have both parents on her pedigree form , I am bloody fuming as just found out more about her . Omg how stupid was I and my poor little girl is still calling and feel so bad for her


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If you want to take it down the court route then send her a letter saying you want your money back because you did not get the service you paid for and she seems unable to complete the terms of her own contract. Give a timescale for your refund - 14 days is generous enough. State that if she does not refund you within this time you will file a claim in the County Court without further notice. Do not send it recorded delivery but do go to the post office and get a certificate of posting - this is free and all the evidence you'll need that you sent the letter. Don't do this unless you intend to follow through and file. Empty threats will just make her stronger.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

I do intend to take it further if I have to , she is


havoc said:


> If you want to take it down the court route then send her a letter saying you want your money back because you did not get the service you paid for and she seems unable to complete the terms of her own contract. Give a timescale for your refund - 14 days is generous enough. State that if she does not refund you within this time you will file a claim in the County Court without further notice. Do not send it recorded delivery but do go to the post office and get a certificate of posting - this is free and all the evidence you'll need that you sent the letter. Don't do this unless you intend to follow through and file. Empty threats will just make her stronger.


i do intend to take this further if I have to , it's not just about me getting my money back but to make sure she does not keep on doing what's she's doing !!!, she made out to me that she cares about cats welfare when clearly she only cares about making money


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

havoc said:


> I'd bet it was a non-active registered queen rather than not registered. I'm still surprised that anyone gets caught on this unless someone stupidly attempts to register kittens or the owner of the queen complains. That I can imagine. A fine resulting purely from a third party report is less likely. The GCCF wouldn't fine someone just on a piece of gossip and presumably a straight denial would stop any further action.


To be honest, when challenged by the GCCF she probably just admitted it, she never made any secret that she took in unregistered cats, nor that she'd been fined for doing so when I later asked her about it. With regards to the GCCF acting on gossip .... I'd be inclined to say it depends who was supplying the gossip


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

She will stop calling in a few days. Think you said you have decided to spay her. If that's the case make an appointment for a week or so, she will have stopped by then.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> She will stop calling in a few days. Think you said you have decided to spay her. If that's the case make an appointment for a week or so, she will have stopped by then.


Yeah I'm def going to spay her asap , I didn't do what I did to make money but do feel I was naive and prob got excided about my girl having kittens and she kind of made me believe that what I was doing was the right think for me to do


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

little mo said:


> it's not just about me getting my money back but to make sure she does not keep on doing what's she's doing !!!,


There's no shortage of people who don't research before buying a pedigree kitten, only asking questions after the fact.
Google, Facebook groups, forums are all readily available for research.

Glad all my kittens are neutered before adoption and can never end up in byb hands.

while not what you intended it's best your girl didn't take, if she were in fact mated, and can now be spayed.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> There's no shortage of people who don't research before buying a pedigree kitten, only asking questions after the fact.
> Google, Facebook groups, forums are all readily available for research.
> 
> Glad all my kittens are neutered before adoption and can never end up in byb hands.
> ...


I'm not even sure the mating took place as can't trust her


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

little mo said:


> I'm not even sure the mating took place as can't trust her


Just booked her in for vets on wedensday


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I know a stud owner who only does supervised matings (they don't work for all queens, some refuse with an audience) and the females went back with a polaroid of them 'on the job' pinned to the mating certificate! It always amused me as she is a very polite and proper woman!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

little mo said:


> Just booked her in for vets on wedensday


Worrying I know but I'm sure she will fine.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I know a stud owner who only does supervised matings (they don't work for all queens, some refuse with an audience) and the females went back with a polaroid of them 'on the job' pinned to the mating certificate! It always amused me as she is a very polite and proper woman!


I should have asked her for evidence as she has cameras in cattery lol


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Should you choose to do something about it I'm sure she'll submit relevant footage as part of her defence - - should she have any.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> Should you choose to do something about it I'm sure she'll submit relevant footage as part of her defence - - should she have any.


Just spoke to someone who has also had problems with this breeder and has filed a complaint with trading standards at her local council , she emailed me a copy of the letter she received back from them and to date she has 15 complaints being investigated against her . Wish I had searched her name on the internet before I had any dealings with her . Shocking !!!!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I searched her name and it didn't tell me she had 15 outstanding complaints with Trading Standards. Of course I might not have searched well, but that information might not be online. Suggest you add your own...


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> I searched her name and it didn't tell me she had 15 outstanding complaints with Trading Standards. Of course I might not have searched well, but that information might not be online. Suggest you add your own...


No it didn't say it on there as the email was sent direct to the lady who made the complaint which she emailed me the letter . I will speak to trading standards first thing tomorrow


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Dropped my little girl off to vets this morning to be spayed , made me feel sad leaving her as they took me into the same room as I went in when I had my little boy put to sleep just before Christmas . He was 22 so had a very good life


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

That is hard when you have to go back to the same place  All the best for your girl x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Iv not heard no names mentioned but i bet i can guess who it is. :Vomit

Op well done for getting your girl spayed, you really have done the right thing.

If you really are interested in breeding do your research and source and good reputable breeder who is willing to mentor you etc.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Iv not heard no names mentioned but i bet i can guess who it is. :Vomit
> 
> Op well done for getting your girl spayed, you really have done the right thing.
> 
> If you really are interested in breeding do your research and source and good reputable breeder who is willing to mentor you etc.


Looking at where you live I'm not sure you would know of this breeder although she is very well known to other breeders who will tell you to stay well away from her


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

little mo said:


> Looking at where you live I'm not sure you would know of this breeder although she is very well known to other breeders who will tell you to stay well away from her


The cat fancy is a very small world and within a specific breed it is even smaller. Word gets about, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if we love bsh's knew who this was.


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

little mo said:


> Looking at where you live I'm not sure you would know of this breeder although she is very well known to other breeders who will tell you to stay well away from her


I live in Yorkshire and know of plenty of breeders up and down the country, as @Tigermoon says, the cat fancy is very small and people do talk!


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## Susan M (Feb 20, 2013)

I think I could have a guess at who this is as well, if I'm right I don't know how she's still getting away with all this, and the kittens she's breeding are shocking!


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

MissPink said:


> I would advise the OP to contact GCCF to raise a formal complaint and definitely consider asking for your money back and if need be inform the breeder you intend to issue court proceedings. After looking up this breeder she has no end of complaints about her and was investigated by trading standards at her local council. She has a dozen queens on her website and I doubt they are tested. This breeder really needs to be investigated by the GCCF and hopefully they will suspend her GCCF prefix.


If only it were this simple! The OP bought her girl from a backyard breeder which means the GCCF can do absolutely nothing of any significance and quite possibly the stud owner is also a BYB, so her only recourse is Trading Standsrds and the small claims court.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

little mo said:


> I paid 400 pounds for her with her pedigree papers and jabs


Anyone can type up a pedigree certificate, it's the papers you receive from the GCCF/TICA that are the important documents to prove your cats status as a purebred cat. If the breeder from whom you bought your cat bred from a cat on the non-active register, then she could not register any kittens from that mating, so any papers you have are not worth anything.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The only possible recourse by the gccf is where a queen registered inactive is accepted to a stud registered inactive.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Non-active registered queen to *active* registered stud is the combination where the GCCF could intervene. Even then, if the stud owner doesn't care and is getting more business from unregistered or non-active registered girls there's nothing they can do. Abiding by GCCF rules is a matter of choice for cat owners. The idea that they can suspend a prefix isn't true, they can suspend the owner but a prefix is for life come what may. They can't take back something they've sold. What they can do is refuse to register the progeny of non-active registered cats - this thread is proof that there are plenty of people happy to pay for and breed from non-active and unregistered cats, a market the GCCF has no control over and no power to stop.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Havoc, reading between the lines perhaps wrongly then, are you saying that they can refust to register the kittens from nonactive cats, but they would have to register the ones from appropriately bred cats, even if the owner was suspended?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

They won't register kittens from a queen registered to a suspended owner. The term used on another post on this thread is that they would suspend a prefix - that they cannot do and the prefixes of suspended people remain on the list. A prefix belongs to the holder, bought for readies. To take a prefix away from a holder they'd have to refund the money paid for it. For some reason people attach great import to a prefix. It means nothing and the GCCF apply the same rules and sanctions to anyone breeding from GCCF registered cats, prefix holder or not. It's then up to the owner whether they choose to take a blind bit of notice. Those who wish to continue registering kittens go along with GCCF rules and those who don't, don't. I registered all my kittens to add to the registry, to record the history of the breed. I'd guess I could still have sold 99% of them without a registration certificate. Most pet buyers don't understand the registration process or the difference between a pedigree certificate and a registration card and many don't care. It's those of us on the inside, abiding by the rules of a body with no power who give those rules some importance because we choose to. They mean absolutely nothing to anyone else.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

havoc said:


> They won't register kittens from a queen registered to a suspended owner. The term used on another post on this thread is that they would suspend a prefix - that they cannot do and the prefixes of suspended people remain on the list. A prefix belongs to the holder, bought for readies. To take a prefix away from a holder they'd have to refund the money paid for it. For some reason people attach great import to a prefix. It means nothing and the GCCF apply the same rules and sanctions to anyone breeding from GCCF registered cats, prefix holder or not. It's then up to the owner whether they choose to take a blind bit of notice. Those who wish to continue registering kittens go along with GCCF rules and those who don't, don't. I registered all my kittens to add to the registry, to record the history of the breed. I'd guess I could still have sold 99% of them without a registration certificate. Most pet buyers don't understand the registration process or the difference between a pedigree certificate and a registration card and many don't care. It's those of us on the inside, abiding by the rules of a body with no power who give those rules some importance because we choose to. They mean absolutely nothing to anyone else.


This is true. Registration is important only for showing. You can breed and sell kittens without registration as we have seen on this thread, but you cannot show in a GCCF or TICA show unless your cat is registered nor can the progeny be shown if they too are unregistered. For most pet owners this isn't an issue. Although I did once encounter a woman, who naively purchased a Bengal from a BYB and then decided she wanted to show her cat. She clearly had no idea about breeding standards, registration or what the name of the cat fancy was, which at that time was only the GCCF. Poor woman was extremely disappointed when she discovered the truth.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ah, as I thought. Thought I'd been very dim in missing something so important and such a big loophole, but it seems not!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There's no need for big loopholes Carly - those who want to can get round suspensions by simply changing the registered ownership of a cat to a family member or friend. It's usually just a paper exercise and everything carries on as before for the breeder.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Some suspended breeders simply change registries.


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## alrhios (May 7, 2010)

I hope you have had some success. Unfortunately there seem to be some stud owners out there that are not the most helpful. I had a very similar experience. I was asked to pay in full upfront to the very nice lady..... turned out not so nice when I had no kittens and asked for the free mating. My gilr went off call, but I kept in touch regularly, im talking every couple of weeks to which she always said that's alright just let me know when she calls. When she finally did she said don't forget to bring her paperwork and the money. when I questioned this she said oh, only if you came back within 4 months.... I felt very let down as this was my first experience.
Perhaps you coudl say, if shes not able to accommodate you, perhaps she can refund?? Might jog her on a little?? Its difficult isn't it. I know after I had a few words to say to the lady I went to, I wouldn't have wanted my girl there anyway as I didn't trust her. Its an expensive learning curve I had. I hope you have more joy xx


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

alrhios said:


> I hope you have had some success. Unfortunately there seem to be some stud owners out there that are not the most helpful. I had a very similar experience. I was asked to pay in full upfront to the very nice lady..... turned out not so nice when I had no kittens and asked for the free mating. My gilr went off call, but I kept in touch regularly, im talking every couple of weeks to which she always said that's alright just let me know when she calls. When she finally did she said don't forget to bring her paperwork and the money. when I questioned this she said oh, only if you came back within 4 months.... I felt very let down as this was my first experience.
> Perhaps you coudl say, if shes not able to accommodate you, perhaps she can refund?? Might jog her on a little?? Its difficult isn't it. I know after I had a few words to say to the lady I went to, I wouldn't have wanted my girl there anyway as I didn't trust her. Its an expensive learning curve I had. I hope you have more joy xx


Some people are clearly in this for the money and don't really care once they have your money , I have no chance of getting money back as she said she stated to me that she had wrote my cats dates down and had put a two week block on the stud so no one else could use him which was totally untrue, she had told me she can't pridict the future and can not turn customers away if my cat was not there . After her telling me she was still away I did get a friend to message her saying could she drop her girl round who was calling and asked my friend which stud cat she wanted to use and my friend asked for the one I used and her reply was yes he's avalible . She's known to be a lier and could not trust her to take my cat or even to put my cat in with the stud . When I mentioned this to her she said her nan had passed away and she would have got her dad to go to her house so my friend could take her !!!, she couldn't get her dad to go there for my cat to have her remating though , oh well you do learn the hard way


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

If you had ended up with kittens would you have advertised them as pedigree?


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> If you had ended up with kittens would you have advertised them as pedigree?


I would have said they come with pedigree papers of both parents but not registered


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There's no such thing as pedigree 'papers' other than a registration document. Whereas I do feel for you if you've ended up out of pocket through ignorance, given the chance you were about to perpetrate the self same fraud on others.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> There's no such thing as pedigree 'papers' other than a registration document. Whereas I do feel for you if you've ended up out of pocket through ignorance, given the chance you were about to perpetrate the self same fraud on others.


I understand what you are saying but my reason was not to make a huge profit , I was going to keep a kitten and my daughter was going to have one and also the lady who I got mine from wanted one so none of those was going to make me money


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

And you still have the option of chasing that stud owner for your money through normal civil channels if you feel you have paid for a service you didn't get. If you feel you have clean hands then go to law.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> And you still have the option of chasing that stud owner for your money through normal civil channels if you feel you have paid for a service you didn't get. If you feel you have clean hands then go to law.


I would if I thought I had a chance I would , she has 15 complaints being looked at by her local council but seems to be very clever also I would never want to fraud anyone or rip anyone off like I have just been


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Why do believe you don't have a chance? The local council is a red herring, nothing to do with you making a claim through the civil courts.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> Why do believe you don't have a chance? The local council is a red herring, nothing to do with you making a claim through the civil courts.


Because after loads of messaging with her she said that my offer for free mating was still there but I could not take the risk of her letting me down again and my cats health is more important and don't want her getting stressed


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Why aren't you also going after the woman who sold you your girl rather than colluding with her? You were sold a cat as a pedigree and for breeding which could/should never be accepted to any pedigree stud. She conned you.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> Why aren't you also going after the woman who sold you your girl rather than colluding with her? You were sold a cat as a pedigree and for breeding which could/should never be accepted to any pedigree stud. She conned you.


When I bought my cat it wasn't something I even looked at doing , it wasn't until she got older I decided I would like her to have 1 litter


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_The lady I got her from is a really nice girl so don't have any problem with her. . Mia's mum was registered but on the non active but had also used the same stud owner to mate her girl_
Did you know all this when you first contacted the stud owner? Did you know it when you bought the kitten? Were you deliberately wanting to breed and sell the progeny as pedigrees even though you knew you couldn't provide any proof of pedigree to unsuspecting buyers? If the answer to any of those questions is yes then I understand your reluctance to pursue the matter.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> _The lady I got her from is a really nice girl so don't have any problem with her. . Mia's mum was registered but on the non active but had also used the same stud owner to mate her girl_
> Did you know all this when you first contacted the stud owner? Did you know it when you bought the kitten? Were you deliberately wanting to breed and sell the progeny as pedigrees even though you knew you couldn't provide any proof of pedigree to unsuspecting buyers? If the answer to any of those questions is yes then I understand your reluctance to pursue the matter.


No I di


havoc said:


> _The lady I got her from is a really nice girl so don't have any problem with her. . Mia's mum was registered but on the non active but had also used the same stud owner to mate her girl_
> Did you know all this when you first contacted the stud owner? Did you know it when you bought the kitten? Were you deliberately wanting to breed and sell the progeny as pedigrees even though you knew you couldn't provide any proof of pedigree to unsuspecting buyers? If the answer to any of those questions is yes then I understand your reluctance to pursue the matter.


no I didn't know any of this when I got her as a kitten but she was a pet so didn't mind and was ok with just having papers . I did rush into it as when I contacted the stud owner and told her my cat was calling she said she would not be involved if I left her to call again as it would be her third call and could have problems I did explain I was worried about kittens being rehomed with no papers and she told me she had a waiting list of 400 people wanting her studs kittens . I took her advise as she claims she is one of the best breeders in the world and I should take advise from her


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

"I took her advise as she claims she is one of the best breeders in the world and I should take advise from her"

So no research to back up her claims. Hopefully you will research future similar claims from tradesmen, double glazing salesmen, banks, insurance companies and the like.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> "I took her advise as she claims she is one of the best breeders in the world and I should take advise from her"
> 
> So no research to back up her claims. Hopefully you will research future similar claims from tradesmen, double glazing salesmen, banks, insurance companies and the like.


No I didn't really have time as dropped her off as soon as , only looked into her when I picked my cat up and she was so rude and off with me


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_When I bought my cat it wasn't something I even looked at doing , it wasn't until she got older I decided I would like her to have 1 litter_
A cat bought as a pet gets spayed sometime between four and seven months old so presumably you'd made the decision to breed from her by then. You don't breed from them until they're around a year old. That leaves a fair few months for research.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> _When I bought my cat it wasn't something I even looked at doing , it wasn't until she got older I decided I would like her to have 1 litter_
> A cat bought as a pet gets spayed sometime between four and seven months old so presumably you'd made the decision to breed from her by then. You don't breed from them until they're around a year old. That leaves a fair few months for research.


She didn't have her first call until she was a year old and I had decided when she was about 9 months old that I would like to have a litter . As I wasn't sure I did not breed from her on her first call which was in December and told the breeder this and she told me she wouldn't come into call again until June , she is a house cat so did not have any concern about her getting out and falling pregnant by a random Tom cat so thought I had plenty of time to decide if I was going to breed from her but has it happened she came into call about 20 days later . My main concern was my car and after posting on here I took advise of people and got my cat spayed . I did not wait to be messed about by waiting for a second mating just so I could get my cat pregnant to make money out of her . I had just lost my cat who was 22 and was blurred at the fact I could have little kittens .


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

little mo said:


> She didn't have her first call until she was a year old and I had decided when she was about 9 months old that I would like to have a litter . As I wasn't sure I did not breed from her on her first call which was in December and told the breeder this and she told me she wouldn't come into call again until June , she is a house cat so did not have any concern about her getting out and falling pregnant by a random Tom cat so thought I had plenty of time to decide if I was going to breed from her but has it happened she came into call about 20 days later . My main concern was my car and after posting on here I took advise of people and got my cat spayed . I did not wait to be messed about by waiting for a second mating just so I could get my cat pregnant to make money out of her . I had just lost my cat who was 22 and was blurred at the fact I could have little kittens .


To be fair, I think you've just been very naive and probably not educated about ethical cat breeding. This isn't meant as a slight on you personally, sadly, I think there are a lot of people out there, who love cats, but do not understand the strength of feeling many reputable cat breeders and some cat owners have about backyard breeders and their often unethical and immoral breeding practices. What you were planning to do was, in the eyes of many, very wrong, but I suspect that you have now learned from this mistake, at least, I hope you have and I hope you have many wonderful years with your furbaby. If you do want another kitten, instead of breeding to get one, why not find a reputable breeder and buy one.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

little mo said:


> She didn't have her first call until she was a year old and I had decided when she was about 9 months old that I would like to have a litter . As I wasn't sure I did not breed from her on her first call which was in December and told the breeder this and she told me she wouldn't come into call again until June , she is a house cat so did not have any concern about her getting out and falling pregnant by a random Tom cat so thought I had plenty of time to decide if I was going to breed from her but has it happened she came into call about 20 days later . My main concern was my car and after posting on here I took advise of people and got my cat spayed . I did not wait to be messed about by waiting for a second mating just so I could get my cat pregnant to make money out of her . I had just lost my cat who was 22 and was blurred at the fact I could have little kittens .





Sacremist said:


> To be fair, I think you've just been very naive and probably not educated about ethical cat breeding. This isn't meant as a slight on you personally, sadly, I think there are a lot of people out there, who love cats, but do not understand the strength of feeling many reputable cat breeders and some cat owners have about backyard breeders and their often unethical and immoral breeding practices. What you were planning to do was, in the eyes of many, very wrong, but I suspect that you have now learned from this mistake, at least, I hope you have and I hope you have many wonderful years with your furbaby. If you do want another kitten, instead of breeding to get one, why not find a reputable breeder and buy one.


yes what you said is very right , I went into this not really knowing what I was doing but what I do know is I love my cat very much and she was by no means a money making scheme for me , I was not planning on breeding my cat to have her as a breeding machine unlike some breeders who do it as a business to make money . My cat is very loved and is not stuck in a cattery and had she had kittens they would have been raised in my house and treated like any of my pets . Sometimes I think cat breeders are no different from puppy farms


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

little mo said:


> yes what you said is very right , I went into this not really knowing what I was doing but what I do know is I love my cat very much and she was by no means a money making scheme for me , I was not planning on breeding my cat to have her as a breeding machine unlike some breeders who do it as a business to make money . My cat is very loved and is not stuck in a cattery and had she had kittens they would have been raised in my house and treated like any of my pets . Sometimes I think cat breeders are no different from puppy farms


When in a hole stop digging in this case casting aspersions at cat breeders apparently in general.

Most cat breeders and a great many dog breeders are not kitten or puppy farms. All the breeders I know raise their kittens in their homes and the kittens are pets even though only for a few months. Also very few people make any significant money out of breeding cats. If they did the HMRC would be pretty interested in cat breeders, and they are not.

Of course the woman whose stud you took your cat too might be an exception, though I suspect she does far better for far less work from stud fees.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> When in a hole stop digging in this case casting aspersions at cat breeders apparently in general.
> 
> Most cat breeders and a great many dog breeders are not kitten or puppy farms. All the breeders I know raise their kittens in their homes and the kittens are pets even though only for a few months. Also very few people make any significant money out of breeding cats. If they did the HMRC would be pretty interested in cat breeders, and they are not.
> 
> Of course the woman whose stud you took your cat too might be an exception, though I suspect she does far better for far less work from stud fees.


I was not having a dig at anyone on this forum and as I said earlier I did get my cat spayed as listened at people who gave me advice . I'm not saying all breeders do but I'm sure some do it for the money . This has been a massive learning thing for me and if I do ever decide to breed I would make sure that I do it properly . Sorry if I offended anyone in here as it was not my intention


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

I really hope you don't think all breeders are the same.
Yes, there are breeders but then there are those breeders who care and do the right thing with health tests etc.
Breeders who lose a lot of money, sits up all night trying to save a kitten etc, the list goes on.

I didn't post in this thread before as I don't agree with people purchasing a pet then having just one litter, so I am glad you have had your girl spayed.
If you do decide one day to breed, there are so many members here who can offer you help in the life of ethical breeding.

If you are going to breed, start the right way, it is so much more rewarding, plus the stud options will be open to you so you can avoid being put in this situation again.

Hope you do stay and post photo's of your girl.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

catcoonz said:


> I really hope you don't think all breeders are the same.
> Yes, there are breeders but then there are those breeders who care and do the right thing with health tests etc.
> Breeders who lose a lot of money, sits up all night trying to save a kitten etc, the list goes on.
> 
> ...


Thanks for yours reply and I was not having a dig and I'm sure people on here are very dedicated to there breeding and didn't mean to offend anyone . If I ever decide to get a queen and decide to breed from her I will definitely do my homework but yes I do now believe breeding should be left to people who know what they are doing . I will enjoy my little girl and do think I was very nieive and should of waited . The main thing though is she's ok and she's a happy girl . Seems very different since she's been spayed and a lot more affectionate


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

The fact is, if you breed properly, in other words, abide by the guidelines set out by the cat fancy, very little or no profit is made from breeding. Most reputable breeders, who register their cats with the GCCF and or TICA are mostly interested in showing cats. Their aim is to produce a cat as close to the breeding standard as possible so they can show that cat and gain titles. In the process of trying to breed an excellent show quality cat, they also breed kittens that are not as close to the breed standard as they need to be to be classed as show quality. These kittens are not suitable for showing, hence they are called pet quality. They are not suitable for breeding from because the breeder does not want to keep reproducing kittens with the same faults that deviate from the standard thus ruining their line.

If a cat is sold as a pet and is on the non-active register, it's usually because it has too many faults, it does not closely match the breed standard. People who breed from these cats are breeding for the wrong reasons: you are supposed to breed for the betterment of the breed. By betterment, I don't just mean breeding to attain the breed standard, but also breeding for a good temperament and selecting for good health too. There are some health issues in breeds for which there are scans and tests that breeders pay to have done so they can choose which cats are best for breeding. 

BYBs often fail to have these tests done or don't even know these tests are available because they are not part of the cat fancy breeding community and so are out of the loop. They have no idea about breeding standards and breed from cats with faults potentially producing more and more kittens that deviate from the standard. BYBs breed for profit, ethical breeders breed for the love of and improvement of the breed. For the most part, money charged for a kitten only covers a reputable breeders expenses.

I understand you did not act as you did for profit, but intended to keep a kitten and give other kittens to family. However, if you love the breed then you have to support ethical breeders in their quest to improve the breed and keep the breed from disappearing altogether and you do this by purchasing a pet or show quality kitten only from an ethical breeder.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Sacremist said:


> The fact is, if you breed properly, in other words, abide by the guidelines set out by the cat fancy, very little or no profit is made from breeding. Most reputable breeders, who register their cats with the GCCF and or TICA are mostly interested in showing cats. Their aim is to produce a cat as close to the breeding standard as possible so they can show that cat and gain titles. In the process of trying to breed an excellent show quality cat, they also breed kittens that are not as close to the breed standard as they need to be to be classed as show quality. These kittens are not suitable for showing, hence they are called pet quality. They are not suitable for breeding from because the breeder does not want to keep reproducing kittens with the same faults that deviate from the standard thus ruining their line.
> 
> If a cat is sold as a pet and is on the non-active register, it's usually because it has too many faults, it does not closely match the breed standard. People who breed from these cats are breeding for the wrong reasons: you are supposed to breed for the betterment of the breed. By betterment, I don't just mean breeding to attain the breed standard, but also breeding for a good temperament and selecting for good health too. There are some health issues in breeds for which there are scans and tests that breeders pay to have done so they can choose which cats are best for breeding.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to lie but never realised how much goes on in the cat breeding world and im kind of glad my girl didn't get pregnant and I do admire all the hard work that people do . Still I do feel a bit angry that I feel someone took advantage of the fact that I didn't really have any experience in breeding my cat but still 100% encouraged me to breed from her do line her pocket from my 250 stud fee


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

little mo said:


> I'm not going to lie but never realised how much goes on in the cat breeding world and im kind of glad my girl didn't get pregnant and I do admire all the hard work that people do . Still I do feel a bit angry that I feel someone took advantage of the fact that I didn't really have any experience in breeding my cat but still 100% encouraged me to breed from her do line her pocket from my 250 stud fee


I don't blame you for being angry. Now you've had your girl spayed and the fact she has offered you a second mating probably means there is little you can do. I can't even suggest citizens advice because they probably have little understanding of the difference between who is an ethical breeder and a BYB. When they think of BYBs they probably think puppy and kitten farms, but not all BYBs run farms, some of them do raise kittens in the home as you've just learned, but they are unethical because they breed for the wrong reasons and from unsuitable cats. The citizens advice will only consider your consumer rights.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Sacremist said:


> I don't blame you for being angry. Now you've had your girl spayed and the fact she has offered you a second mating probably means there is little you can do. I can't even suggest citizens advice because they probably have little understanding of the difference between who is an ethical breeder and a BYB. When they think of BYBs they probably think puppy and kitten farms, but not all BYBs run farms, some of them do raise kittens in the home as you've just learned, but they are unethical because they breed for the wrong reasons and from unsuitable cats. The citizens advice will only consider your consumer rights.


I'm sure at some point she will do something and get caught out , she's not got a good reputation so it's only a matter of time . Had I googled her name and read about her I would not have even considered going to her but I did and it was then to late . Someone messaged me to ask the name of the stud cat I used so told her which one and she said that's strange I thought she only had 3 studs and that's not the name of any on her web site , I didn't even know she had a web site so she sent me the link . The stud that I used or thought I used was on there but his name was not the same as the cat I used , very strange


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

You won't get your money back, most probably, however, reporting her to Trading Standards might give some satisfaction. If they get enough complaints then they will take action.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

little mo said:


> I'm sure at some point she will do something and get caught out , she's not got a good reputation so it's only a matter of time . Had I googled her name and read about her I would not have even considered going to her but I did and it was then to late . Someone messaged me to ask the name of the stud cat I used so told her which one and she said that's strange I thought she only had 3 studs and that's not the name of any on her web site , I didn't even know she had a web site so she sent me the link . The stud that I used or thought I used was on there but his name was not the same as the cat I used , very strange


Sounds like she might have an unregistered stud or two so her registered boys only get correctly registered girls. Or, her website is out of date!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Sacremist said:


> If a cat is sold as a pet and is on the non-active register, it's usually because it has too many faults, it does not closely match the breed standard.


Not at all, breeders can only keep so many with most not selling entires to people they don't know and most pet homes don't want to show so kittens go as just pets instead.

Little mo I'm glad you're seeing some positive changes since neutering your girl.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Not at all, breeders can only keep so many with most not selling entires to people they don't know and most pet homes don't want to show so kittens go as just pets instead.
> 
> Little mo I'm glad you're seeing some positive changes since neutering your girl.


I'm referring to breeders I've known over many years, most of whom are Birman breeders. It's incredibly difficult to breed a show quality Birman so very few, if any, show quality are sold as pets. Admittedly with some breeds like Burmese it is easier and so easier to buy a show quality. However, I have never personally met a breeder who shows that breeds just for profit. Maybe you have.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Sacremist said:


> However, I have never personally met a breeder who shows that breeds just for profit. Maybe you have.


Of course they exist, not as common but they are out there unfortunately.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_I'm not going to lie but never realised how much goes on in the cat breeding world and im kind of glad my girl didn't get pregnant_
I believe with hindsight you are relieved you didn't end up going down a path you now realise wasn't right. You'd have ended up being yet another backyard breeder when you had no conscious intention of doing any such thing. You had no experience and no mentor to help or guide you.  If anything had gone wrong, if there had been the slightest complication you may not have even recognised the need for help until it was too late and you'd never have forgiven yourself.

It has been a hard and expensive lesson and I'd still push for a return of at least part of the stud fee but that's me. I'd spend another few pounds just to get a CCJ recorded against someone who had fleeced me. It doesn't necessarily mean you'd get your money back but it does mean you've wrecked their chances of getting credit for six years. I'm nasty enough to want my pound of flesh.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Of course they exist, not as common but they are out there unfortunately.


I did venture into breeding Birmans and did everything correctly. I showed, found a mentor who sold me a breeding queen, but after just one litter I decided breeding wasn't for me, so I had my girl neutered. I also stopped showing. Like I said, it's virtually impossible to get a really good show quality Birman as a neuter and the Birman was the breed I wanted to show. I had been showing an ex-breeding Burmese girl, who did very well, but the whole experience of breeding put me off showing too.

My mentor did mention someone who she believed bred as a business but I never met her.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I've seen many show marked Birmans over the years entires and neuters, quite a few breeders get whole litters all well marked, just very lucky perhaps. I do know one who rarely got good markings while all her Birman friends had litter after litter of perfect kittens, maddening for her.


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I tried three times to buy a show quality Birman. The first we later discovered had a kinked tail. Shortly after getting the second they introduced yet another withholding fault, which at that time stood at 14. He had no pigmentation in his philtrum which ended his show career before it even got started. In most other ways he was wonderful: his type, his markings, but with no pigmentation in his philtrum they would have withheld the certificate. My final chance was my breeding queen, who did win her first show as an adult prior to going to stud, but after my experience of breeding, I decided not to show her any more, certainly not as an entire because she would have kept calling, but I also shied away from showing her as a neuter. She probably could have done well, but I was disheartened.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Did you have a traumatic breeding or show experience?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I just have the wrong personality for breeding. When it comes to animals, I'm hyper-sensitive. Sophie had four kittens and the birth went smoothly. However, when one was barely a week old, his eye which was not yet open, became very swollen with pus trapped under his eyelid. The vet could not treat it properly until his eye opened. My mentor advised me to bathe the eye with cooled boiled water and Calendula, which I did. I knew I should not force the eye open until it was ready, but my mentor suggested I try and open just a tiny gap to try and release the pus. In the meantime, he looked like he was giving up. I found him separated from the other three kittens, huddled into a corner of the kittening pen. It broke my heart. I picked him up and squeezed him into the middle of the other three. Sophie wasn't with the kittens and so she didn't see him and yet when she returned, she went directly to the corner where he had been. I was frightened she might reject or kill him. Thankfully she didn't and the next day I managed to make a tiny hole and release a lot of the pus. Soon after his eye opened and he had an ulcer in his eye but with treatment it healed.

When the kittens were about 6 weeks old, they caught an infection. I saw a vet who, instead of giving them antibiotics, decided they had something serious like FIP, FELV or FIV and began testing for these. Whilst waiting for the test results, the kittens were getting worse. One weekend I rushed them all to an emergency vet, who did give them an antibiotic. Two days later they were much improved. All the tests came back negative which did not surprise me. Needless to say I never saw that vet again.

Whilst all this was happening my friend, also a first time breeder, had a Burmilla who gave birth to three kittens. Her girl's labour did not go as smoothly as Sophie's; we had to rush her girl to the vets where the kittens were successfully delivered. However, a couple of days later, one of her kittens was struggling to breathe, so again we ended up at the emergency vets where we were told the kitten had a congenital heart defect and should be put to sleep. My friend was distraught and could not stay and watch. I cannot leave an animal to be put to sleep without being there for it, so I stayed, but watching something so tiny and fragile be put to sleep was devastating and it made me realise how lucky I had been not having to do that with any of my four. It made me think about whether or not I could handle going through that again.

Unfortunately, the experience of caring for the kittens and believing they were going to die resulted in a bond being forged between them and me. I had homes for two of the kittens. One week before they were due to leave, I began suffering from separation anxiety. I would burst into tears frequently, anywhere, anytime. I felt like an idiot walking around the supermarket bawling my eyes out.

I went so far as to let one kitten go but came home and got into bed feeling like I had a limb missing and someone had kicked me black and blue. Every fibre of my being hurt. I was in such a state, my hubby rang the woman who bought the kitten and begged for her to be returned. She very kindly agreed and her money was returned.

I kept all the kittens and had them and their mother neutered. It's not an experience I want to repeat.

What has happened since then has only confirmed in my mind that giving up breeding was the right thing to do. One kitten died from ARVC aged 6, another died from ARVC aged 8 and a third died from kidney failure aged only 10. Their mother developed multiple health issues like asthma, secondary bronchitis, liver disease, ARVC and eventually was PTS because she had a malignant invasive tumour behind her eye. Had I continued to breed from her or any kittens she may have produced, my line could have been riddled with ill health. 

Ironically, the one kitten, now 11 year old cat, I still have left is that one boy, who had the poorly eye and I thought he was going to die after just a few days. He's outlived all his siblings.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Oh dear, what a terrible experience for you, does seem that not breeding again was the right choice for you.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

Sacremist said:


> I just have the wrong personality for breeding. When it comes to animals, I'm hyper-sensitive. Sophie had four kittens and the birth went smoothly. However, when one was barely a week old, his eye which was not yet open, became very swollen with pus trapped under his eyelid. The vet could not treat it properly until his eye opened. My mentor advised me to bathe the eye with cooled boiled water and Calendula, which I did. I knew I should not force the eye open until it was ready, but my mentor suggested I try and open just a tiny gap to try and release the pus. In the meantime, he looked like he was giving up. I found him separated from the other three kittens, huddled into a corner of the kittening pen. It broke my heart. I picked him up and squeezed him into the middle of the other three. Sophie wasn't with the kittens and so she didn't see him and yet when she returned, she went directly to the corner where he had been. I was frightened she might reject or kill him. Thankfully she didn't and the next day I managed to make a tiny hole and release a lot of the pus. Soon after his eye opened and he had an ulcer in his eye but with treatment it healed.
> 
> When the kittens were about 6 weeks old, they caught an infection. I saw a vet who, instead of giving them antibiotics, decided they had something serious like FIP, FELV or FIV and began testing for these. Whilst waiting for the test results, the kittens were getting worse. One weekend I rushed them all to an emergency vet, who did give them an antibiotic. Two days later they were much improved. All the tests came back negative which did not surprise me. Needless to say I never saw that vet again.
> 
> ...


Oh how sad for you , reading this would have put me off breeding . I worry about everything so would have drove my self mad and when it came to rehoming kittens it would have really upset me to


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

quick question , on my contract it said includes second mating . It does not state that payment is non refundable. Could I use this against her ?


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Trading Standards may be able to answer your questions, have you contacted them?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Looking for things to use against her as such is not the right way to go or right thinking. A stud fee is for the service, not for guaranteed results but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try for a partial refund. Just write to her saying you don't believe you got the full service you paid for and her stated lack of availability of her studs mean you cannot complete the contract with a second mating. You therefore request the return of 50% of your stud fee within 14 days or you will file a claim in the County Court. Don't rant, don't embellish, *keep it simple or you will get nowhere*. Don't use recorded delivery, hand the letter over the counter at a Post Office and ask for a free certificate of posting.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> Looking for things to use against her as such is not the right way to go or right thinking. A stud fee is for the service, not for guaranteed results but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try for a partial refund. Just write to her saying you don't believe you got the full service you paid for and her stated lack of availability of her studs mean you cannot complete the contract with a second mating. You therefore request the return of 50% of your stud fee within 14 days or you will file a claim in the County Court. Don't rant, don't embellish, *keep it simple or you will get nowhere*. Don't use recorded delivery, hand the letter over the counter at a Post Office and ask for a free certificate of posting.





catcoonz said:


> Trading Standards may be able to answer your questions, have you contacted them?


They have got a copy of my contract and looking through it but still waiting to hear back from them


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

What is it you want? Trading Standards won't get you your money back.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The objective evidence here is that she did have your cat and there's nothing to say it wasn't in with her stud. My take on that contract is that you could definitely insist on specific performance ie a second mating but you've now caused an impossibility there by spaying your girl. I do think it's worth trying to get some of your money back - but only because she's been difficult. I'm really not so sure you're entitled to it, just think it's worth a try.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> What is it you want? Trading Standards won't get you your money back.


The local council who are looking into the breeder asked me to send a copy on the contract over to them , not sure what they really want it for


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I think you need to decide what it is you want.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_The local council who are looking into the breeder asked me to send a copy on the contract over to them , not sure what they really want it for_
They want to try and show she's running a business, make her apply for planning permission and make money from her. If she engages the right experts they will fail. Councils usually try to use the rules for dog breeding when they go after cat breeders.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> I think you need to decide what it is you want.


I would have been happy with part of my money back due to the fact I felt she was messing me about and think if I had left my girl again until next call I still would not have got a second mating . I think if it had to be. Choice of my girl or another 250 pounds she would have took the 250 pounds


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You don't actually know your cat wasn't mated first time round. It can happen that cats don't get pregnant at stud, even when several matings are witnessed.

Equally my pregnant cat has been to stud twice, the stud owner has seen & heard nothing, and she is expecting her second litter. Had the stud owner tried to witness matings in person there would probably have been none as she is very shy with people.

Your best shot IMHO is asking for a 50% refund since the stud didn't seem to be available in a reasonable time frame, but I doubt you will get anywhere. You could consider £25 for a Money Claim Online small court claim, but be prepared to lose it.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> You don't actually know your cat wasn't mated first time round. It can happen that cats don't get pregnant at stud, even when several matings are witnessed.
> 
> Equally my pregnant cat has been to stud twice, the stud owner has seen & heard nothing, and she is expecting her second litter. Had the stud owner tried to witness matings in person there would probably have been none as she is very shy with people.
> 
> Your best shot IMHO is asking for a 50% refund since the stud didn't seem to be available in a reasonable time frame, but I doubt you will get anywhere. You could consider £25 for a Money Claim Online small court claim, but be prepared to lose it.


I know it probably sounds like I'm being unreasonable and a bit of a bitch and I totally understand that she could have gone to stud on a few occasions and still may not have taken . It's more about her attitude and I had no trust in her and did not want to wait again and still not get a mating . If I continue to do anything she said she will involve the police and do me for harassment which she can do as I have all messages between us and she has nothing which could prove harassment as I've only been civil towards her . People have involved police with her before so I'm sure they would not be interested with me


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_Your best shot IMHO is asking for a 50% refund since the stud didn't seem to be available in a reasonable time frame, but I doubt you will get anywhere. You could consider £25 for a Money Claim Online small court claim, but be prepared to lose it._
That sums it up. It would be worth the £25 to me to at least hope for a refund just to get rid of you or a non response from her and a default judgement.

I'm afraid 'messing you around' isn't a head of claim in English law and you being annoyed isn't relevant.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> _Your best shot IMHO is asking for a 50% refund since the stud didn't seem to be available in a reasonable time frame, but I doubt you will get anywhere. You could consider £25 for a Money Claim Online small court claim, but be prepared to lose it._
> That sums it up. It would be worth the £25 to me to at least hope for a refund just to get rid of you or a non response from her and a default judgement.
> 
> I'm afraid 'messing you around' isn't a head of claim in English law and you being annoyed isn't relevant.


She told me she will have no more contact with me so I won't be having anymore contact direct with her . She's a very clever person but very nasty to . She made a statement on the complaint board that she bought a kitten of someone which died and was very nasty about the breeder , the breeder threatened her with court and because she couldn't get it removed she had to make a statement on there to say she made the whole thing up , the same day there was also two other breeders named on there saying the same kind of thing which was probably from her to


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_She told me she will have no more contact with me so I won't be having anymore contact direct with her_
So you don't want to try for a refund then.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> _She told me she will have no more contact with me so I won't be having anymore contact direct with her_
> So you don't want to try for a refund then.


I would like to try but knowing what's she's like I don't want to loose anymore money as don't think she will pay it


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> I just have the wrong personality for breeding. When it comes to animals, I'm hyper-sensitive. Sophie had four kittens and the birth went smoothly. However, when one was barely a week old, his eye which was not yet open, became very swollen with pus trapped under his eyelid. The vet could not treat it properly until his eye opened. My mentor advised me to bathe the eye with cooled boiled water and Calendula, which I did. I knew I should not force the eye open until it was ready, but my mentor suggested I try and open just a tiny gap to try and release the pus. In the meantime, he looked like he was giving up. I found him separated from the other three kittens, huddled into a corner of the kittening pen. It broke my heart. I picked him up and squeezed him into the middle of the other three. Sophie wasn't with the kittens and so she didn't see him and yet when she returned, she went directly to the corner where he had been. I was frightened she might reject or kill him. Thankfully she didn't and the next day I managed to make a tiny hole and release a lot of the pus. Soon after his eye opened and he had an ulcer in his eye but with treatment it healed.
> 
> When the kittens were about 6 weeks old, they caught an infection. I saw a vet who, instead of giving them antibiotics, decided they had something serious like FIP, FELV or FIV and began testing for these. Whilst waiting for the test results, the kittens were getting worse. One weekend I rushed them all to an emergency vet, who did give them an antibiotic. Two days later they were much improved. All the tests came back negative which did not surprise me. Needless to say I never saw that vet again.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing @Sacremist. My eyes are welling up at your story. Xxx


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

To be honest @little mo I would just draw a line under it and put it to bed but that's just me. I think the longer it goes on, the more bitter you will start to feel about it which will make you miserable


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

daisysmama said:


> To be honest @little mo I would just draw a line under it and put it to bed but that's just me. I think the longer it goes on, the more bitter you will start to feel about it which will make you miserable


I know , I really should and I do get over it for a while and then I get emails about her and I get angry about it again


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You get emails about her? Gosh where from?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Daisymama is right. Without going into detail, hubby and I were once ripped off for nearly £300. We never got the money back. I reported it to Trading Standards only to discover we were one of very many in the same position. I completed a statement and sent it back to Trading Standards. I was told they were taking action but I doubt we will ever see a penny of our money again. After that I just let it go and try to be more diligent in the future.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

OrientalSlave said:


> You get emails about her? Gosh where from?


Someone asked me if I wanted to be added to a group who have had problems with her 


OrientalSlave said:


> You get emails about her? Gosh where from?


 some one has added me to a group from people who has had problems with her


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This thread is gaining in entertainment value but I'm not sure it's a good idea for it to keep going.


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## little mo (Jun 28, 2013)

havoc said:


> This thread is gaining in entertainment value but I'm not sure it's a good idea for it to keep going.


I don't really feel after loosing 250 pounds is entertaining ,I simply came on this forum for people's opinions and advice which I have had many positive replys . i do also think the breeder who I am on about knows that I have posted on here .


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## The Wild Bunch (Jul 16, 2014)

little mo said:


> Someone asked me if I wanted to be added to a group who have had problems with her


That can be dangerous territory. Don't want to get embroiled in a counter claim from her for defamation of character or slander


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

little mo said:


> I don't really feel after loosing 250 pounds is entertaining ,I simply came on this forum for people's opinions and advice which I have had many positive replys . i do also think the breeder who I am on about knows that I have posted on here .


I breed BSH and it wasn't difficult to discover who the stud owner is and yes, she has a dreadful reputation relating to multiple 'things', all of which have been publicly played out time and again on social media. It does become entertainment for a lot of people who enjoy engaging in the gossip but it unfortunately achieves nothing of a positive nature apart, perhaps, from cluing up the unwary. I honestly do not think that mulling over the 'he said, she said' aspect helps you to achieve anything.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

little mo said:


> some one has added me to a group from people who has had problems with her


Joining such a group doesn't sound conducive to moving on. It will only continue to feed into your anger.

I would also suggest drawing a line under it. Enjoy the rest of your life with your girl, and if you did decide in the future to breed you will go about it a different way.

If this woman is as bad as she sounds, and has that many people upset with her, I'm sure she will get her comeuppance eventually.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> Hopefully, she will come through for you (in her own sweet tIme!) but yes, her attitude sounds very poor now that she has your stud fee. Sometimes in life, and certainly with breeding cats, we learn by bad experience (that was the case for me many years ago) and IN my experience of this kind of situation, don't be a wallflower. You'll be polite of course but be persistent; anyone that 'flippant' I feel often finds it too easy to ignore/put aside an obligation to someone who is being TOO understanding. Though if it drags on and on you may well decide to chalk it up to experience.


You hit the nail on the head there. There's a certain type of person that sees politeness and reluctance to cause trouble as ''weakness'' (although of course it isn't). I hate feeling that I am pressuring someone, altho' I would always do it where a) my children or b) my cats were concerned.


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