# Pregnant border...long....



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi all,

I know some of you on here dont approve with breeding but i hope to get pleasent comments.

I am posting this to share my experience and to also get advice along the way. this will be mine and my girls first.

i have a border terrier cross patterdale, mum was full border, dad was patterdale x border, who will be 2 on the 19th july.

on her third season i mated her on days 9, 11 and 13, with a full border terrier with 5 gen ped and kc reg.

they have both had relevent tests and health checks.

I also have a waiting list of 3 definates and 1 possible ( am awaiting application back and to do a vet check on them).

my girl should be on day 9 of pregnancy from first mating.

i have an app with my vets on the 13th may to confirm pregnancy and another health check. i have my vets full support.

both mum and dad have excellent temperaments, great with other dogs and children, even small furries. dad is of excellent type and both are fit and healthy.

i have fully researched this and have read the book of the bitch ten times over.

my girl has been acting differently the last 2 days, very quiet and out of character, i am hoping these are good signs of pregnancy?

i would like you to have a look at my website and would like any advice, good or bad, i want to do everything the best way for my girl and her puppies. please mention if you feel i have missed something.

http://preciouspatterdales.webs.com/

i plan to keep one of the pups.

thanks in advance.

xx


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

congrats on hopefully the puppies. What is your website I can't seem to find it?...Jill


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

sorry it would of helped if i actually posted it! lol. Precious Patterdales & Beautiful Borders - Home


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Website looking good. you should put the health tests down and the results as people will want to know these.

Good luck with it all... we're all here to help


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## Lucylewis0 (Aug 4, 2009)

kiara said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I know some of you on here dont approve with breeding but i hope to get pleasent comments.
> 
> ...


I still can't see your website hunni??

I wish you the best of luck, It's great having and litter, it was one the most amazing experience of my life. Book of the Bitch :thumbup: top top book!!!!!
Your are clearly done a lot of research :thumbup:

All bitches act diffrently, my girl acted strange the day after she was mated, she was very low, sleeply, clingy (very clingy) for the first 2 weeks, then she was back to normal just eating loads, then after 6 weeks she was very slow,, sleepy again but still very clingy and of course very fat!!!

If you need anymore advise just let me know.

Good luck and fingers crossed she's having pups xx


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## Lucylewis0 (Aug 4, 2009)

Right, I got your website now!!!

Yeah it looks great :thumbup: 

Ditto what Tanya says it would be good idea to put the health test results on' there too

xx


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks for the replys. i will do that.

i was wondering about her food and what to give the puppies? i have settled her on to harringtons complete which i have found brill, i have tried arden grange, jwb, wagg, supermarket own make, iams all which have disagreed with her. i didnt really want to put her on a diff food and upset her at a delicate time. my vet suggested she was put on to puppy food now, someone else said start to give her her own food x 5  from week 2 and my book says to keep her on her normal food with a ongoing 15% increase every week from 5 weeks? not sure wat to do for the best. her food has min 26% meat meal, 21 % protein, she weighs 6.3kg and has 0.63g per day.

as for the pups, my book says its fine if the pups eat from mums bowl but to wean on puppy food? would the harringtons be ok for them to wean on? it says from 8 weeks on the bag? 

thanks

x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Look for a good quality puppy food for mum.... this is what you will wean the puppies on to at 3 weeks old. I put mum on puppy food from 4 weeks (when pregnancy is confirmed) have a look at a thread I started last week... its called "steps to take after mating your bitch"

ETA: whatever you feed mum on you feed pups on or they will all end up with terrible shits


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Your website looks good, and I am glad you seem to be doing everything right (although I'm not entirely sure why you didn't breed either patterdales or broders, but nothing can be done about that). Your puppy pack looks great!

Just one thing, why are your females going for a higher price than males? They don't cost anymore to raise while they are in your care, so I think they should be the same price.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

happysaz133 said:


> Just one thing, why are your females going for a higher price than males? They don't cost anymore to raise while they are in your care, so I think they should be the same price.


You have eyes like a hawk.... I completely missed that lol...


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## the melster (Mar 20, 2010)

The website looks great. On the puppies page it says the pup comes with 'free insurance' which some people might take literally. Perhaps you could say how long the insurance is for instead.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

You've missed the n out of environment on the puppy page, I know its picky but you did ask.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Whilst we are picking then... I wouldn't put an application on your website.... I hate applications, they give the person applying a "heads up" on the questions you will ask on your interview. Its best to surprise them at the interview... a lot harder to lie to your face if they don't know what the questions are.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

happysaz133 said:


> Your website looks good, and I am glad you seem to be doing everything right (although I'm not entirely sure why you didn't breed either patterdales or broders, but nothing can be done about that). Your puppy pack looks great!
> 
> Just one thing, why are your females going for a higher price than males? They don't cost anymore to raise while they are in your care, so I think they should be the same price.


hi, thanks for your reply, my bitch lady is 3/4 border 1/4 patterdale. 
her mum is a border, her dad a border x patterdale.
the stud is a full border.
puppies will nearly full border.

i have put the bitches more hoping to deter byb, this was suggested to me by my vet.

thanks.
x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

the melster said:


> The website looks great. On the puppies page it says the pup comes with 'free insurance' which some people might take literally. Perhaps you could say how long the insurance is for instead.


thank you i will correct this. x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> You've missed the n out of environment on the puppy page, I know its picky but you did ask.


no thanks, i knew i would have missed things that i couldnt see. x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

kiara said:


> i have put the bitches more hoping to deter byb, this was suggested to me by my vet.


It won't deter them, you have to suss them out before putting them on the list.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Vets!   Honestly, I wouldn't take too much advice from a vet unless it's of a medical nature - they rarely know anything about breeding.

I agree - same price for bitches and dogs - it won't deter a byb - that needs to be done through vetting.

Related to that, I would also change this



> Puppies will be avaliable to view from 4 weeks and a 20% non-refunable deposit secures.


It implies that all they have to do is pay the 20% deposit and the puppy is theirs! I don't have a problem with taking deposits, but vetting is imperative and should come first. The disadvantage of taking a deposit is that if at anytime between vetting and getting to know the new owners before they pick the puppy up, you learn something that makes you feel they are not the right home, legally, you have to sell them the puppy. So tread with care re deposits.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Whilst we are picking then... I wouldn't put an application on your website.... I hate applications, they give the person applying a "heads up" on the questions you will ask on your interview. Its best to surprise them at the interview... a lot harder to lie to your face if they don't know what the questions are.


I have used the application just as a starter, once i have recieved that i talk to them on the phone and do a vet check. generally once you speak to someone you get that gut feeling wether it feels right or not.



Tanya1989 said:


> It won't deter them, you have to suss them out before putting them on the list.


its to deter them from contacting me, du think i should change it?



rocco33 said:


> Vets!   Honestly, I wouldn't take too much advice from a vet unless it's of a medical nature - they rarely know anything about breeding.
> 
> I agree - same price for bitches and dogs - it won't deter a byb - that needs to be done through vetting.
> 
> ...


no one will able to view my pups without first having a successful vetting. i was thinking along the lines of once vetting completed i have (from now) 11 1/2 weeks to get to know them before any dep paid. on viewing i will have them sign a sort of contract before putting a deposit down explaining everything. ie, if they are found to be unsuitable from then to picking up puppy i have the right to keep dep and puppy, therefore hoping they either change there mind because they realise they may lose there money if they lying or speak up to anything they may have 'left out'. du think this is ok? or would you suggest something else?

thanks
x


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

kiara said:


> I have used the application just as a starter, once i have recieved that i talk to them on the phone and do a vet check. generally once you speak to someone you get that gut feeling wether it feels right or not.
> 
> its to deter them from contacting me, du think i should change it?
> 
> ...


on your website you should have a page about vetting people so they know what to expect before contacting you.
You could have something like. All potential homes will be vetted, a deposit will not be taken until viewing etc etc, just explain a bit about your procedures etc etc, also say that if you are not happy you will refuse them a pup. That way you sound much more responsible and that in itself could deter the wrong people from applying.

Just another thing I would do...... I wouldnt let them see the pups straight away assuming that the first time you meet them will be on viewing?

Set an hour aside to 'interview' them ask all the questions you want and asses their answers, then once you are happy let them see the pups.

People get over excited when viewing pups and automatically assume because they have seen them you have aggreed to let them have one


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> on your website you should have a page about vetting people so they know what to expect before contacting you.
> You could have something like. All potential homes will be vetted, a deposit will not be taken until viewing etc etc, just explain a bit about your procedures etc etc, also say that if you are not happy you will refuse them a pup. That way you sound much more responsible and that in itself could deter the wrong people from applying.
> 
> Just another thing I would do...... I wouldnt let them see the pups straight away assuming that the first time you meet them will be on viewing?
> ...


"Before filling in an application form please make sure you are happy with my procedure. All potential homes will be vetted and i have the right to refuse any home i do not deem suitable for my pups.

I will only take a deposit when a successful application has been made, you have signed, agreed to my contract and viewed the pups at 4 weeks+."

that sound ok??

x


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> if they are found to be unsuitable from then to picking up puppy i have the right to keep dep and puppy


Regardless of what you put in the contract, legally, you won't have the right to keep dep and puppy. In terms of law, dogs are considered 'goods' so the Sale of Goods Act applies. If someone has put a deposit on something they have the right to demand the goods or similar and no court would allow you to keep the deposit and a puppy regardless of if there was a contract stating that.

That aside, it's more the wording that I think is the problem. As I said it implies that a deposit will secure a puppy and I think you could find you having a number of irate people who assume they can automatically have a puppy if they pay a deposit. I would take away the word 'secures' and just put that a deposit is required.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

kiara said:


> "Before filling in an application form please make sure you are happy with my procedure. All potential homes will be vetted and i have the right to refuse any home i do not deem suitable for my pups.
> 
> I will only take a deposit when a successful application has been made, you have signed, agreed to my contract and viewed the pups at 4 weeks+."
> 
> ...


sounds good to me :thumbup:


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Regardless of what you put in the contract, legally, you won't have the right to keep dep and puppy. In terms of law, dogs are considered 'goods' so the Sale of Goods Act applies. If someone has put a deposit on something they have the right to demand the goods or similar and no court would allow you to keep the deposit and a puppy regardless of if there was a contract stating that.
> 
> That aside, it's more the wording that I think is the problem. As I said it implies that a deposit will secure a puppy and I think you could find you having a number of irate people who assume they can automatically have a puppy if they pay a deposit. I would take away the word 'secures' and just put that a deposit is required.


thanks, i have done that
x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

website updated with your help... Precious Patterdales & Beautiful Borders - Home


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

lady has been acting completely different to her normal self today. she is really restless, pacing and not settling and barking at EVERYTHING!!! 
her lady bits are not as swollen as when she was in heat. 

is this all normal? 

thanks x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

restless panting and general upset are signs of infection. I'd want a vet consultation


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

She has settled down now but will make an app for tomorrow, Du think they could confirm pregnancy then? I know not by palpitation but by her hormone levels? x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Not at 11 days post mating... hormone levels are the same until 21-24 days, then relaxin can be found... it is only found when embryos are attaching to the uterine wall


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

kiara said:


> hi, thanks for your reply, my bitch lady is 3/4 border 1/4 patterdale.
> her mum is a border, her dad a border x patterdale.
> the stud is a full border.
> puppies will nearly full border.
> ...


OK but she's still not a pedigree, and the puppies should be advertised as crosses. They also cannot be registered by the KC which will put people off. Is the Dad KC registered?


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

happysaz133 said:


> OK but she's still not a pedigree, and the puppies should be advertised as crosses. They also cannot be registered by the KC which will put people off. Is the Dad KC registered?


i know shes not a pedigree and they are advertised as crosses. this is also refected in the price. a full border goes from £500.
not being kc hasnt seemed to deter anyone as these dogs are for pet homes.
yes the dad is kc reg.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

Great website!! And it seems like you are doing this well!! The dogs are gorgeous!! :thumbup:

But i still can't see the health test results etc  am i just being blind?? :lol:


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Acacia86 said:


> But i still can't see the health test results etc  am i just being blind?? :lol:


I may be wrong, but I think the OP means a vet health check, rather than any health tests etc - as far as I know (from my friend that has a couple of Borders) Border Terriers are a pretty healthy breed and there are no recommended health tests or DNA tests etc.

I had a quick look on the Southern Border Terrier Club website and it says the three biggest killers are old 'age, cancer and trauma'! Then after that its 'reproductive issues, joint problems and skin problems'. The joint problems are not HD though so even this isnt a recommended test.

Not sure on patterdales though...


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

'enclosed' .. . not 'inclosed' - as in garden
'your home' . . . not 'you home'
either 'how many children under 5' or 'how many under 5s' (no apostrophe needed as it is only a plural) but not 'how many children under 5s'


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

ok im not going be popular but i think they are abit pricey for a cross


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

why do the females cost more than the males?


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

spid said:


> 'enclosed' .. . not 'inclosed' - as in garden
> 'your home' . . . not 'you home'
> either 'how many children under 5' or 'how many under 5s' (no apostrophe needed as it is only a plural) but not 'how many children under 5s'


you can tell you are a teacher lol!!!


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

spid said:


> 'enclosed' .. . not 'inclosed' - as in garden
> 'your home' . . . not 'you home'
> either 'how many children under 5' or 'how many under 5s' (no apostrophe needed as it is only a plural) but not 'how many children under 5s'


thank you, how did i miss that!!! :confused1:


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> Great website!! And it seems like you are doing this well!! The dogs are gorgeous!! :thumbup:
> 
> But i still can't see the health test results etc  am i just being blind?? :lol:





katiefranke said:


> I may be wrong, but I think the OP means a vet health check, rather than any health tests etc - as far as I know (from my friend that has a couple of Borders) Border Terriers are a pretty healthy breed and there are no recommended health tests or DNA tests etc.
> 
> I had a quick look on the Southern Border Terrier Club website and it says the three biggest killers are old 'age, cancer and trauma'! Then after that its 'reproductive issues, joint problems and skin problems'. The joint problems are not HD though so even this isnt a recommended test.
> 
> Not sure on patterdales though...


hi, 
no there isnt any current recommended health tests for these breeds, but they have both had a complete full health check by the vets. neither have had any illnesses and there parents were healthy to. x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Not at 11 days post mating... hormone levels are the same until 21-24 days, then relaxin can be found... it is only found when embryos are attaching to the uterine wall





Tanya1989 said:


> restless panting and general upset are signs of infection. I'd want a vet consultation


hi, i have been to the vets and all is well.  
he said the change in behaviour is to do with either hormone changes du to pregnancy or hormones changes due to heat cycle. x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

happysaz133 said:


> Just one thing, why are your females going for a higher price than males? They don't cost anymore to raise while they are in your care, so I think they should be the same price.





kiara said:


> i have put the bitches more hoping to deter byb, this was suggested to me by my vet.





Tanya1989 said:


> It won't deter them, you have to suss them out before putting them on the list.





rocco33 said:


> Vets!   Honestly, I wouldn't take too much advice from a vet unless it's of a medical nature - they rarely know anything about breeding.
> 
> I agree - same price for bitches and dogs - it won't deter a byb - that needs to be done through vetting.





kiara said:


> its to deter them from contacting me, du think i should change it?





Natik said:


> why do the females cost more than the males?


...........


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You've got great advice so good luck and I can't wait to see pictures when they're born. It sounds like you're doing everything right which is great to see, not meant to sound patronising I swear


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

hi all, lady is 2 weeks preg today. .
are there any signs of pregnancy i can look out for?
i have an app on 13th to determine pregnancy. 
thanks
x


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

My girl was sleeping a lot


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

kiara said:


> hi all, lady is 2 weeks preg today. .
> are there any signs of pregnancy i can look out for?
> i have an app on 13th to determine pregnancy.
> thanks
> x


TOO EARLY to say


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

There aren't any signs. I wouldn't even try to look for them. Your mind convinces you that you are seeing signs, which only sets you up for a bigger fall if things fail. Just try and put it out of your mind until you see a scanner. How many days will she be on the 13th?


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> There aren't any signs. I wouldn't even try to look for them. Your mind convinces you that you are seeing signs, which only sets you up for a bigger fall if things fail. Just try and put it out of your mind until you see a scanner. How many days will she be on the 13th?


she will be 24 days on the 13th. thats just for vet palpatation, i then have the scan for when she is 28 days.
x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

kiara said:


> she will be 24 days on the 13th. thats just for vet palpatation, i then have the scan for when she is 28 days.
> x


also she plays rough and tumble with my staffies, should i try and calm this down or should i let her decide whens enough? x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

She'll decide whats too rough for her. I really would advise against palpation.... one slight false move and the vet could kill the pups or cause severe deformaties. I'd just wait for the scan.


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

cav said:


> ok im not going be popular but i think they are abit pricey for a cross


i dont think its to pricey at all. if you look around at prices of cross breeds they are around the £500 mark and if people pay then why not keep it that high. i have been looking at cavachons as we have a bichon and a cavvie i would like to breed and i have seen a breeder that sells every time for £750 now that is pricey


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

happysaz133 said:


> OK but she's still not a pedigree, and the puppies should be advertised as crosses. They also cannot be registered by the KC which will put people off. Is the Dad KC registered?


i dont think not being pedigree puts people off unless they want to breed themselves.. if they are loving family pets it wont matter. my freind has cavaliers and was told by another breeder that although kc reg papers are good to see the bloodlines it doesnt mean that from generations ago that a illness will not come through. you may have your bitch and stud dog fully health checked but unfortunetly a illness can come from at least 5 gens before this and not show in test results but come out in the pups. my friend has 2 pups die while in incubators at the vets. they did a post motum and said it was a bad heart. mum and dad are both clear but could have came from bloodlines further back.

i am not saying you shouldnt test your animals before breeding but be aware that this can happen


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Just read through this post. I have no idea on breeding, but you are getting the thumbs up from the people that do! So good luck with it, I hope she is pregnant! Cant wait to see pictures of the little pups!


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## nic101 (Jun 8, 2009)

Natik said:


> why do the females cost more than the males?


this ^^



cav said:


> ok im not going be popular but i think they are abit pricey for a cross


and this ^^^ id expect to pay around £150 for a crossbred terrier. (bitch or dog)!


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

Is that the going price for cosses like this?


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

We paid £350 for Chazz, so people will pay it for crosses. It is less than pure breed border terriers who are KC registered and pedigree. They are going between £400-£600. 

I would look at the difference between the males and females though. I know you guys dont like byb, but doesnt matter how much you ask, they will do it if they are gonna do it. The only way of making sure is to get them spayed before you sell them.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

nic76 said:


> i dont think its to pricey at all. if you look around at prices of cross breeds they are around the £500 mark and if people pay then why not keep it that high. i have been looking at cavachons as we have a bichon and a cavvie i would like to breed and i have seen a breeder that sells every time for £750 now that is pricey


I breed cavaliers and im not saying what i sell them for on here but all my dogs are health tested through the club so im abit old fashioned when it comes to breeding and stick by the rules i have been taught
Im sorry but i see no need to cross a bichon and a cav and give it a fancy name i hope you think about your plans before you go ahead.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

nic76 said:


> i dont think not being pedigree puts people off unless they want to breed themselves.. if they are loving family pets it wont matter. my freind has cavaliers and was told by another breeder that although kc reg papers are good to see the bloodlines it doesnt mean that from generations ago that a illness will not come through. you may have your bitch and stud dog fully health checked but unfortunetly a illness can come from at least 5 gens before this and not show in test results but come out in the pups. my friend has 2 pups die while in incubators at the vets. they did a post motum and said it was a bad heart. mum and dad are both clear but could have came from bloodlines further back.
> 
> i am not saying you shouldnt test your animals before breeding but be aware that this can happen


If you dog is not is not kc reg the pedigree can be made up ive seen this so how do you check the lines for faults?
I think your friend should have gone further back thats why its important to research you lines.


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

cav said:


> If you dog is not is not kc reg the pedigree can be made up ive seen this so how do you check the lines for faults?
> I think your friend should have gone further back thats why its important to research you lines.


i think 5 yr generation is fairly good start and when your dogs are clear you seem to think its ok to go ahead and breed


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

cav said:


> I breed cavaliers and im not saying what i sell them for on here but all my dogs are health tested through the club so im abit old fashioned when it comes to breeding and stick by the rules i have been taught
> Im sorry but i see no need to cross a bichon and a cav and give it a fancy name i hope you think about your plans before you go ahead.


i actually like the cavachons and have read lots on cross breeding. it can improve a breed and have less illnesses.also a longer life. i do understand when people only want to breed pure bred kc reg but if both parents are healthy i dont see the problem in cross breeding in the right size etc. i will and am breeding cavachons this year and wish people would get of their high horse on pure bred dogs. dont make them any better or healthier than a cross


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

nic76 said:


> i actually like the cavachons and have read lots on cross breeding. it can improve a breed and have less illnesses.also a longer life. i do understand when people only want to breed pure bred kc reg but if both parents are healthy i dont see the problem in cross breeding in the right size etc. i will and am breeding cavachons this year and wish people would get of their high horse on pure bred dogs. dont make them any better or healthier than a cross


Its not about people being snobs. Its about breeding responsibly from health tested parents


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> Its not about people being snobs. Its about breeding responsibly from health tested parents


so mine are health tested but i shouldnt cross breed. nah stupid


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

cav said:


> I breed cavaliers and im not saying what i sell them for on here but all my dogs are health tested through the club so im abit old fashioned when it comes to breeding and stick by the rules i have been taught
> Im sorry but i see no need to cross a bichon and a cav and give it a fancy name i hope you think about your plans before you go ahead.


 get a fancy name. i dont think cavachons is as posh as cavalier king charles spaniels.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I beginning to feel like this forum is filling up with trolls on a daily basis. Such a shame as I love this place


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

you calling me a troll. yeah ok... i love my dogs and they are all pedigrees but i really dont see the problem in breeding crosses with good heatlhy backgrounds. they still make beautiful family pets.


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

i dont know why you think i am a troll. i didnt realise this website was for pedigree lovers only


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

nic76 said:


> i dont know why you think i am a troll. i didnt realise this website was for pedigree lovers only


I'm afraid it's the way you seem to be coming across on this thread.... not exactly respectful or polite. Sorry.


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> I'm afraid it's the way you seem to be coming across on this thread.... not exactly respectful or polite. Sorry.


not suprising when people are so snooty about cross breeding. this site i thought was for help with pets not putting you down for your choices in life. pedigrees can have heatlh issues the smae as cross breeds so whats everyones point in getting at people cross breeding.


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

KIARA......hijacked your post sorry. good luck with breeding. you will always het popel against you but i am sure you will love every minute of bringing pups into the world. maybe we should all stop having kids aswell.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

nic76 said:


> i actually like the cavachons and have read lots on cross breeding. it can improve a breed and have less illnesses.also a longer life. i do understand when people only want to breed pure bred kc reg but if both parents are healthy i dont see the problem in cross breeding in the right size etc. i will and am breeding cavachons this year and wish people would get of their high horse on pure bred dogs. dont make them any better or healthier than a cross


could you give me proof please about less health problems and longer life?

Im no snob far from it i got other breeds as well a staffie and a st bernard but i dont breed them they are pets and thats it.

how come you spit your dummy because i dont agree with you?


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

cav said:


> could you give me proof please about less health problems and longer life?
> 
> Im no snob far from it i got other breeds as well a staffie and a st bernard but i dont breed them they are pets and thats it.
> 
> how come you spit your dummy because i dont agree with you?


proof...i have none first hand but have read many articles on breeding...... i havent spat my dummy because you dont agree with me. everyone has there opinion on everything in life


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

nic76 said:


> i actually like the cavachons and have read lots on cross breeding. it can improve a breed and have less illnesses.also a longer life. i do understand when people only want to breed pure bred kc reg but if both parents are healthy i dont see the problem in cross breeding in the right size etc. i will and am breeding cavachons this year and wish people would get of their high horse on pure bred dogs. dont make them any better or healthier than a cross


good luck with your cavachons.  there's nothing wrong with crosses.


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

found this and lots more to say cross breeds are fab


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> good luck with your cavachons.  there's nothing wrong with crosses.


thankyou x


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

nic76 said:


> deleted


Can you please provide a link for copyright issues.


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

cross breeds do have there uses

read a little snippet from an article i found


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

hi all, 

lady has 6 days until preg confirmed.

I have been reading the thread about colour genetics and im quite interested.

what colours do you think lady will have>

lady is a red with white and Charlie is a red. (Lady is quite a bit darker)

lady's parents, mum was red with white, dad was black.

Charlie's parents, dad was black and tan (carrier of blue) mum was red.

lady does have some patterdale in her which can come in red, black and chocolate.

thanks


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

nic76 said:


> i dont think its to pricey at all. if you look around at prices of cross breeds they are around the £500 mark and if people pay then why not keep it that high. i have been looking at cavachons as we have a bichon and a cavvie i would like to breed and i have seen a breeder that sells every time for £750 now that is pricey


A ridiclous quick buck from a cross breed with a stupid name put to it to gullible Joe Public?



cav said:


> If you dog is not is not kc reg the pedigree can be made up ive seen this so how do you check the lines for faults?
> I think your friend should have gone further back thats why its important to research you lines.


Great post x



nic76 said:


> i actually like the cavachons and have read lots on cross breeding. it can improve a breed and have less illnesses.also a longer life. i do understand when people only want to breed pure bred kc reg but if both parents are healthy i dont see the problem in cross breeding in the right size etc. i will and am breeding cavachons this year and wish people would get of their high horse on pure bred dogs. dont make them any better or healthier than a cross


Improve what breed i your crossing?



Tanya1989 said:


> Its not about people being snobs. Its about breeding responsibly from health tested parents


Good post x



nic76 said:


> get a fancy name. i dont think cavachons is as posh as cavalier king charles spaniels.


But Cavalier King Charles is a breed name. Cavachon is a made up name as with many added to a cross breed to attract gullible uninformed public in thinking they are getting a "new breed" and parting with stupid amounts of money



SEVEN_PETS said:


> good luck with your cavachons.  there's nothing wrong with crosses.


No there is nothing wrong in crosses as such if done in a responsible way. There will always and has always been a demand for them.. Its the silly names put to them and the ridiculous amounts charged for which at the end of the day is a cross breed. A cross breed is a cross breed wether a Jack cross or a bichon cross. The wide difference in price is crazy depending on what dogs are used and the stupid name that is made up to go with it. A jack russel x poodle does not fetch the same price as a jackapoo or a russpoo or something silly because uneducated Joe Public are led to beleive they are getting a "new" breed by breeders trying to make extrs wonger.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

kiara said:


> hi all,
> 
> lady has 6 days until preg confirmed.
> 
> ...


Just to start, for basic understanding, there are many loci that affect pups colors. At each locus a pup takes just one allele from each of their parents. Their parents do offer two. From each parent, then, at each locus, only one allele is continued on from in the pups. Different coat color loci DO affect and interact with each other, sometimes making puppy color predictions close to impossible.

Lady is a sable(red) and most likely, with the parentage described, she is pure for sable (this means both alleles that she has on the agouti locus are a'y', and that is all she can pass to her pups). It IS possible she carries black and tan though (a't' on the agouti locus), as it is recessive to sable on the agouti locus.

Lady's dad did not pass on his dominant solid black coloring to Lady (her red is a banded color). Solid black is gone and can't come back her pups. Lady shows her most dominant allele - and it is her banded sable(red) coloring.

Charlie is Grizzle (by your explanation) and carries black and tan (from his sire). (When I look at the photo of Charlie, I see sable.) Grizzle isn't completely understood and it COULD be an allele on its own on the agouti locus that is just recessive to sable, OR it could be from a separate modifier that changes the sable or black and tan up.

Anyway, the locus that is most important for this pairing is the Agouti locus as both parent's shown coloring is determined by that locus. As solid cream/tan/buff/white aren't known in this breed and can't be carried (please tell me if I'm wrong), this means the pups "main" coloring will be determined by their alleles on the Agouti locus as well. Lady's sable(red) - a'y' - coloring is dominant, and most likely she doesn't carry black and tan, so those pups should take her coloring - they will be sable(red). What shade they are is a whole 'nuther story as each breed has different names for shades, and you're best to look at the terrier breed enthusiasts for those answers.

IF Grizzle has its own allele - a'w' -, and Charlie is grizzle, then 1/2 the pups could be Grizzle as well. If Grizzle is a modifier, and Charlie is a grizzle modified sable, then pups might see grizzling due to the modifier from Charlie as well. There is too little understood about this and I don't want to be guessing.

IF Lady does carry black and tan, then one in four pups could be black and tan (as we know Charlie is a carrier). They would be a't'/a't' on the agouti locus.

Different modifiers that are yet to be identified always affect all the agouti colored pups and the shadings within and the amount of tan (which can be shaded as light as almost white) on a black and tan can be varied.

IF Charlie carries blue, Lady would have to carry it as well for the pups to show it. Blue is controlled by the 'D', dilution locus.

Hope that helps.

This is a page that you might be interested in as it goes into some of the loci that can affect shadings.

StandardCoatColor

CC


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

nic76 said:


> proof...i have none first hand but have read many articles on breeding...... i havent spat my dummy because you dont agree with me. everyone has there opinion on everything in life


are you a wind up merchant??


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Your website is good but I personally feel your asking too much for the pups seen as though they will not be KC reg. people could get kc reg for what your asking. sorry if this upsets you.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Also I know you wont all agree.. But I know a lot of people who aren't that interested in Bitches, As they don't want the hassle os seasons... So with that and a higher price you may find yourself stuck with your bitches..

Also I have friends with terrier types used for hunting farming and general pets and the puppies rarely cost over £250..

Good luck with your litter xxx


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## Guest (May 11, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> Your website is good but I personally feel your asking too much for the pups seen as though they will not be KC reg. people could get kc reg for what your asking. sorry if this upsets you.





momentofmadness said:


> Also I know you wont all agree.. But I know a lot of people who aren't that interested in Bitches, As they don't want the hassle os seasons... So with that and a higher price you may find yourself stuck with your bitches..
> 
> Also I have friends with terrier types used for hunting farming and general pets and the puppies rarely cost over £250..
> 
> Good luck with your litter xxx


i agree with these posts, the website is nice but imo they are over priced and ive never understood why some people charge more for bitches!

is it because they think they are more valuable because they can produce puppies at a later date??? god i hope not!:frown:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Shamen said:


> is it because they think they are more valuable because they can produce puppies at a later date??? god i hope not!:frown:


to me its going to make people want to breed they will think ive paid extra so im going to breed. In my experience Bitches are harder to look after with the seasons and things, males are no bother in that way.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Shamen said:


> is it because they think they are more valuable because they can produce puppies at a later date??? god i hope not!:frown:


In my own breed, we always advise anyone looking for a pup to walk away from breeders charging more for pups by gender or colour.

There's no special trick to producing either gender, it's nature and in the lap of the gods, so why do people charge more for bitches?


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

swarthy said:


> In my own breed, we always advise anyone looking for a pup to walk away from breeders charging more for pups by gender or colour.
> 
> There's no special trick to producing either gender, it's nature and in the lap of the gods, so why do people charge more for bitches?


I think i could understand it if the pups where papillons as they seem to only have one bitch in the litter (if it was to go to a pet/show home) but more often then not girls will probably stay with breeders.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

hi, thanks for all the reply's, as I said in my previous posts this was advised to me by my vets. he said it would deter byb. but after having your thoughts I have decided to sell male and female for the same price. I just haven't got round to changing the website yet. thanks x


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> I think i could understand it if the pups where papillons as they seem to only have one bitch in the litter (if it was to go to a pet/show home) but more often then not girls will probably stay with breeders.


That's a very broad statement to make without knowing the details of every Papillon litter bred - if the bitches are capable of producing bitches, then they are capable of producing bitches, likewise with producing dogs, as of course, it's the dog that decides the gender of the individual pups.

I know in humans, there is sometimes the ability to carry a particular gender (I am uncertain of the reasons why) - but believe it is boys - and if this is replicated in any particular breed of dog (which it can't really be, otherwise the breed would quickly cease to exist) then I could understand the justification for difference in prices.

You are right that bitches do tend to stay more often with breeders than dogs, but this still doesn't justify higher prices.

Believe me, if a BYB breeder wants a pup, they will use any underhand tactics available to get it, price most certainly won't be a barrier - it's us hobby breeders who often have to wonder how we are going to pay for our next pup.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

There is a link between timing of the mating and the ratio of sexes within the litter. If I remember correctly male sperm (Y) are faster swimmers but don't live as long as female soerm (X) who are slower swimmers but can live longer. So depending on when the mating occured in relation to when ovulation occured could alter the gender majority within the litter. However this is theory. In reality the difference in speed and length of life is probably so small you wouldn't notice it within the dmall anatomy of any mammal.
So in reality its all down to chance (and the condition of the sperm and whether there are any sex linked genetic diseases as to whether the bitch absorbs them)


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

swarthy said:


> That's a very broad statement to make without knowing the details of every Papillon litter bred - if the bitches are capable of producing bitches, then they are capable of producing bitches, likewise with producing dogs, as of course, it's the dog that decides the gender of the individual pups.
> 
> I know in humans, there is sometimes the ability to carry a particular gender (I am uncertain of the reasons why) - but believe it is boys - and if this is replicated in any particular breed of dog (which it can't really be, otherwise the breed would quickly cease to exist) then I could understand the justification for difference in prices.
> 
> ...


well the only 2 litters ive known has been 1 bitch 3 dogs, I asked people I know and they said girl paps arnt that easy to come by.


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## Guest (May 11, 2010)

kiara said:


> hi, thanks for all the reply's, as I said in my previous posts this was advised to me by my vets. he said it would deter byb. but after having your thoughts I have decided to sell male and female for the same price. I just haven't got round to changing the website yet. thanks x


If you are serious about protecting your puppies from byb's the best thing you could do is offer an incentive for new owners to get the pups spayed once they reach maturity, some breeders offer to refund a percentage of the purchase price once proof of neutering has been shown


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi all,

Had to change the app for Lady, it will now be on Monday.

I am going to start writing up my contract, does anyone have any suggestions that will help me along the way. Or links to some that I can have a look at? 

Thanks

x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

anyone?...........


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

kiara said:


> anyone?...........


I personally think the contract may put people off with the puppies not being pedigree. Maybe you could just ask people to keep in touch? what would you put in your contract?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> I personally think the contract may put people off with the puppies not being pedigree. Maybe you could just ask people to keep in touch? what would you put in your contract?


Why on earth does it matter if the dogs are pedigree/KC registered or not?

Kiara i found an old thread which has some examples on it: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/33627-contract-sale.html


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Nonnie said:


> Why on earth does it matter if the dogs are pedigree/KC registered or not?
> 
> Kiara i found an old thread which has some examples on it: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/33627-contract-sale.html


Nonnie i am intitled to my opinion if you don't like it then ignore it. I am not gonna put up with the way you talk to me.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

to the OP

I was just saying i feel it might put people of because its not that common for people to sign contracts for puppies when they aren't KC/pedigree. I wish you the best of luck though


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## Guest (May 14, 2010)

DKDREAM said:


> to the OP
> 
> I was just saying i feel it might put people of because its not that common for people to sign contracts for puppies when they aren't KC/pedigree. I wish you the best of luck though


 putting certain types of people off is a good thing, imo if they are put off by it then the pups probably had a lucky escape.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Shamen said:


> putting certain types of people off is a good thing, imo if they are put off by it then the pups probably had a lucky escape.


i can understand that and respct that, however their could be people who sign contracts and take no notice anyway, my advice is to try and get friendly with puppy owners, they'll be more likely to keep in touch.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks for the link. I'll have a read up tonight when kids all in bed!! 

Vets changed app again so I'm now going at 3pm tomo which will be day 25 from 1st mating. Is this a good time for palpitation?? 

Thanks x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi everyone. 

Went to the vets and Lady is pregnant, they could feel at least 3. She is well and has gone from 6.1kg to 6.8kg already!

x


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## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

congratulations :thumbup:Kiara, on the news that Lady is definately in pup, i am hoping that my bitch is also in whelp if so we are just 5 days behind you, so hoping to get her palpitated or scanned at the end of this week, she is on day 25 at the moment.Congats again i hope all goes well for you and Lady and i will be keeping an eye on your thread.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

LizzyDrip said:


> congratulations :thumbup:Kiara, on the news that Lady is definately in pup, i am hoping that my bitch is also in whelp if so we are just 5 days behind you, so hoping to get her palpitated or scanned at the end of this week, she is on day 25 at the moment.Congats again i hope all goes well for you and Lady and i will be keeping an eye on your thread.


Hi thanks for your comment, shes day 29 today, got to go back in 13 days to have a scan and head count of pups. found a really good vet in my area that specialises in dog pregnancy. I will even get a scan pic of pups which I am looking forward to. will start her worming then too. 
hope all goes well for you too. I wonder whose has there's first. x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

hi all,

on day 33 already, cant believe how quick its gone. 

lady is doing well. her teats are very pink and have got bigger, her mammary tissue is developing too. her waist line is also disappearing fast.

is it OK to up her food early as she seems hungry all the time? she's already having her normal food plus the same amount in puppy food. 

thanks x :thumbup:


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Yes you can up her food if she is hungry. Is she on a good quality puppy food? She should be changed on to this now. You're leaving it a little late for a head count, the most accurate time is 28-32 days, anything after and its difficult to see where each puppy lies.
ETA take her off her normal food and just keep her on puppy food


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Yes you can up her food if she is hungry. Is she on a good quality puppy food? She should be changed on to this now. You're leaving it a little late for a head count, the most accurate time is 28-32 days, anything after and its difficult to see where each puppy lies.
> ETA take her off her normal food and just keep her on puppy food


Hi Tanya, glad your back. Hope you are OK.

The adult food is Harrington's, this is the only food I have found that suits my dogs, it says it can be fed from 8 weeks +, the pup food is pedigree complete dry.

The advice was given to me by the scanner on the best time to scan, she said as she is a small breed this would be best, do you think I should bring it forward a week? Its an hour long app and she did advise that's its not 100% def and that they have to be sure not to count the same pup twice etc.

x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I'd choose a better quality food than pedigree puppy. Does harringtons not make a puppy food? This would be better, but take her off her normal complete. I'd do the scanning as soon as you can after 28 days, you get a much clearer picture.This is what most scanners suggest and this is what I have always experienced, so it might be worth bringing it forward. But then again it is entirely up to you.

I'd definitely get off pedigree though.

ETA Ive just looked at nutritional analysis for harringtons, as I saw they don't do a puppy food. Looking at analysis, you might as well use that on its own and wean the puppies on to it aswell.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> I'd choose a better quality food than pedigree puppy. Does harringtons not make a puppy food? This would be better, but take her off her normal complete. I'd do the scanning as soon as you can after 28 days, you get a much clearer picture.This is what most scanners suggest and this is what I have always experienced, so it might be worth bringing it forward. But then again it is entirely up to you.
> 
> I'd definitely get off pedigree though.
> 
> ETA Ive just looked at nutritional analysis for harringtons, as I saw they don't do a puppy food. Looking at analysis, you might as well use that on its own and wean the puppies on to it aswell.


I will bring the scan forward.
I did think that about Harrington's, its pretty good stuff and I do highly recommend it, its done wonders for my dogs.  I'll get rid of the pedigree then, I didn't really like it to be honest. its made her quite loose. 
x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Just please get her off pedigree its [email protected] lol


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Just please get her off pedigree its [email protected] lol


lol, im glad you said that, i was quite reluctant to change her food. pedigree in the bin!!!!:thumbup:


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## nic76 (May 2, 2010)

how wondeful that she has pups. we have been told to scan from day 28 from the last tie.... we have our scan in just over 2 weeks when she is 30 days.hope all goes well x


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Good luck with the scan


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

morning all,

just sorting out my whelping kit. this is what I have so far;

Nasal Aspirator
Digital Kitchen Scales
Stethoscope
Vet Bed
Torch
Feeding bottles and syringe
Blunt ended scissors
Clock
Milton sterilizing tabs
Torch
Manual scales
Newspaper
Nappy sacks
Baby wipes
Sponge
Flannel
Cotton wool
Puppy ID bands
Disinfectant
Black bags
Kitchen towel
Towels
Note pad
Thermometer

Anything iv forgotten?

thanks x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

archielee said:


> Good luck with the scan


Thank you x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

kiara said:


> morning all,
> 
> just sorting out my whelping kit. this is what I have so far;
> 
> ...


Dopram V- hyperdrug.co.uk
Newlife puppy kit (contains nutridrops and colostrum)- hyperdrug
Wall thermometer for inside whelping box
Heat pad
Liquid life aid- hyperdrug
Cat Carrier for trip to vets (puppies have to be kept separate from mum incase she falls on one during car journey
a heating device for pups in car eg water bottle, snuggle pad etc
Cotton, string or unwaxed floss incase need to tie off cords
A box to put already delivered puppies in during further deliveries.
Lidded bucket for dead puppies and placentas for inspection later
Glucose

Can't think of much else at the minute. but there's bound to be something else


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

hi all,
lady is 5 weeks gone today,
when should I expect to see movement from the pups?

also she has got 2 inverted teats, will this cause a problem? I have only noticed since her teats have become more pronounced. x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Don't worry about the teats just yet. They will probably come out when milk comes in. Movement isn't normally seen until day 53+ if you ever see it. Not many do see movement.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Don't worry about the teats just yet. They will probably come out when milk comes in. Movement isn't normally seen until day 53+ if you ever see it. Not many do see movement.


I was meant to say feel movement! if that make a difference? x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

About the same time.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi 

A few questions for you.:

Lady is on day 38 and she seems to have a clear discharge, its been like this for a couple of days, is this normal during pregnancy?

She has gone off her food and not eating much at all, i was thinking of adding a small amount of butchers wet puppy to each meal to tempt her, do you think this is ok?

Also when do i need to start taking her temp and how regualary?


Thanks.:thumbup:
x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Clear discharge is ok providing it isn't smelly. Any colour to the discharge probably requires anti bios, but definitely a vet trip. 
Mixing food is fine. I start temp taking at 53 days ish. I would forward you my chart but its on my memory card which i don't have with me. but someone willl probably have a copy of it. start taking it twice a day until and gradually increase it until you are taking it 4-6 times a day close to labour.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi all, 

Lady is on day 50. 

She is doing really well. 
She has milk coming in and is leaking from some of her teats.
scan said approximately 5 pups, but you never know, she is carrying unevenly. 
I felt the pups move for the first time today and have also heard the pups heart beat and movement with Summer Prenatal Heart Listening System meant for humans. :thumbup:


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

If she is producing milk now I would expect her to go early. I'd start taking her temperature now.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> If she is producing milk now I would expect her to go early. I'd start taking her temperature now.


thanks.

how often? morning and evening? do you recommend the same time each day? x


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

i wish you lots of luck, you must be getting very excited,


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

colliemerles said:


> i wish you lots of luck, you must be getting very excited,


Thank you.

I am so excited. she is following me everywhere now she doesnt leave my side. i cant wait. wandering how many she will have? what colours? i'm like a kid at christmas. x:lol:


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

wont be long...good luck to you and your dog


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

As her milk is coming in so early I'd say take it every 8 hours for then next 2 days.
Then the following 2 days every 6 hours (unless you notice a sudden drop)
Then the following day every 4 hours.
Following day every 3 hours and continue at every 3 hours until you see "the drop" then continue at every hour for as long as she will let you.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Day 53....

Lady is sooooo big now bless her. Her whelping box is in place and ready.

Started taking her temp and its around 37.9, most of the time.

*Tanya* You say as her milk is in early theres a chance she could go early! Whens the earliest the pups will be viable? If they were born in the next couple of days say would they still have the same chance of survival as they would at day 63? Thanks x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I consider anything from day 56 post ovulation is viable. Textbooks say 58 days but I've had many litters on 56 and the only ones not to survive are the ones that wouldn't of even survived at full term.. birth defects etc.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

I had a litter of 10 born 6 days early all survived:thumbup:


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Had lots of discharge today!!

temps;
10am: 37.5
4pm: 37.9

x


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

how is ur girl today hope shes still holding on for u xx


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

mummyxofx2 said:


> how is ur girl today hope shes still holding on for u xx


day 58

In the night she was panting, and this morning she has had diarrhoea.

This morning all she has done is follow me looking at me. Temp is 38.1 highest its been. x


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## Callie (May 6, 2010)

Amber had skits for about a day before she had the pups although her temp had dropped too. Good luck. I'm sure you will see some action soon. It's such a scary time but everyone on here is so much help!!


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## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

she will go tomorrow i reakon thats exactly how xena went on sunday night her temp was at 38.1 and then monday morning it was 36.8 alllll day long she shivered and panted and had the runs that was it nothing else then tuesday morning i went to bed at 6.45am after staying up alllll night with her then i woke up at 9 and a puppy was born then she had the next 7 within 3 hours


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

8am 38.1
9am 37.4
11am 37.3
x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Hopefully continues to go down...


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Hopefully continues to go down...


Temp at 5pm was 37.7!!!!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Oh well lol...  they like to keep us guessing


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Temp now 37.5

Earlier she stood in the middle of the lounge and done a big wee on the rug whilst looking at me!!! 

Her belly seems to have gone towards the back end more and not so much near her ribs now.

Her belly has gone really hard.

She has been shivering on and off all day.

*Do you notice every time they lose there plug or is it possible to miss it?
I also read somewhere that there temp goes up before it goes down, is this right? This morning it was 38.1 the highest its been.
Do they all lose there appetite?*

x


----------



## mummyxofx2 (Jun 12, 2010)

nawwww cute except the bit about the wee xena did that the last 2 days before she went into first stages she weed on the carpet 2 times


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

kiara said:


> Temp now 37.5
> 
> Earlier she stood in the middle of the lounge and done a big wee on the rug whilst looking at me!!!
> 
> ...


Stomach changing shape means all pups have lined up ready for delivery.

You don't notice in a lot of cases when the plug goes, especially if she is fanatical about keeping clean.

The temperature goes up immediately before labour starts. It stays down for a good few hours- to about 36.6 Then shoots up just before labour, so unless you've been missing a big gap of temps out (ie through the night) it might be a case that you've missed the drop, or incorretly been doing the temp.

The shivering can be the start of labour, but this may go one for 2 days or so. The temp drop is the biggest clue.

Some lose their appetite, some don't


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Day 59

Not really any signs of labour apart from shivering. 

Is it just there back end that shivers or the whole body?

x


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Normally the from the shoulders back. But its the same sort of shivers a poorly dog gets, they look the same. Definitely not suggesting she is poorly, but the shivering looks the same


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

temp 38.2 ???


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Lol, she's teasing you


----------



## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Wow its almost time, just thought I'd post and send you all the best wishes ever with your soon to be litter


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

OMG day 60

She was scratching on and off in her box all night. She tried to do a poo and only a little bit came out. At the min she is watching the kids eat there brekkie waiting for them to drop a bit! lol! x


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

How is she today?


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Insane said:


> How is she today?


day 61, still nothing!


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Ahhh poor you, I bet you are really fed up! The waiting is horrible but just remember they will come but you could have a couple more days to wait yet.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

We have lots of milk today. Still eating. Temp 37.2. She hasnt done a poo since yest morn. Still scratching bed at night. and still shaking on and off. She seems really fed up bless her. x


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Ladys big belly today, i dont think she can get any bigger! x


----------



## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Aw WOW, she's huge! Hope they all arrive soon!! :thumbup:


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Jess' belly looked like that and she had 7! Now she has a models figure lol!


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

We have a temp drop! 36.7 :thumbup:

Will update in an hour.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Excellent about bloody time. Be prepared for a long night :thumbup: Send the OH out for as many cans of red bull as he can fit in the car. Will watch with huge anticipation. You have my number if you need it :thumbup:


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Excellent about bloody time. Be prepared for a long night :thumbup: Send the OH out for as many cans of red bull as he can fit in the car. Will watch with huge anticipation. You have my number if you need it :thumbup:


Lol! Have stocked up on Pepsi Max!!!! :lol: Thank you.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Ooooh I'm dead excited, its been ages since I've been on here whilst its happened. :thumbup: :lol:


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Ooooh I'm dead excited, its been ages since I've been on here whilst its happened. :thumbup: :lol:


So am I! She is laying on the top of the sofa in a real deep sleep, shivering the whole time. Heavy breathing.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Try and get your head down, set your alarm to go off every half hour to check on her. You will be incredibly grateful for this advice, nothing, *nothing* can prepare you for the tiredness you will experience over the next 48 hours. Make sure you have some paracetmol in too for the hum-dinger of a headache you'll get through stress and tiredness.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Try and get your head down, set your alarm to go off every half hour to check on her. You will be incredibly grateful for this advice, nothing, *nothing* can prepare you for the tiredness you will experience over the next 48 hours. Make sure you have some paracetmol in too for the hum-dinger of a headache you'll get through stress and tiredness.


Temp 4pm 37.1????

Iv got 3 kids youngest only 3yrs so i doubt i'll get any sleep! lol!

x


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Still quite low, when did you last take it before the drop? Is it possible you could have missed the drop for a couple of hours. The fact she is in an incredibly deep sleep is a big indicator, like the calm before the storm 

Some temps don't stay low for long, so I wouldn't worry about it too much, just keep doing it every hour until either obvious labour starts or she doesn't let you.

Can you pack the kids off to Grandma's or anything? She's more likely to start if the house is calm and quiet. Try to keep lighting to a minimum, but obviously you need to see whats happening  .


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Still quite low, when did you last take it before the drop? Is it possible you could have missed the drop for a couple of hours. The fact she is in an incredibly deep sleep is a big indicator, like the calm before the storm
> 
> Some temps don't stay low for long, so I wouldn't worry about it too much, just keep doing it every hour until either obvious labour starts or she doesn't let you.
> 
> Can you pack the kids off to Grandma's or anything? She's more likely to start if the house is calm and quiet. Try to keep lighting to a minimum, but obviously you need to see whats happening  .


Keep nipping on for an update, ime getting tense myself. You're a Gem Tanya.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Keep nipping on for an update, ime getting tense myself. You're a Gem Tanya.


     I just lurrrvvveee puppies! lol


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Still quite low, when did you last take it before the drop? Is it possible you could have missed the drop for a couple of hours. The fact she is in an incredibly deep sleep is a big indicator, like the calm before the storm
> 
> Some temps don't stay low for long, so I wouldn't worry about it too much, just keep doing it every hour until either obvious labour starts or she doesn't let you.
> 
> Can you pack the kids off to Grandma's or anything? She's more likely to start if the house is calm and quiet. Try to keep lighting to a minimum, but obviously you need to see whats happening  .


It was a couple of hours before the drop. just took it again its now 37.9.

so,
3pm: 36.7
5pm: 37.9

afraid the kids have to stay, no where for them too go.
iv put her upstairs while im cooking, its quite and dark up there. Will keep checking on her.

x


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

That could be the spike iminently before labour begins, hard to tell as you may have missed the drop for a couple of hours (not your fault, just the way it happens some times, or it may be a case that for some reason the temperature taking when "drop" occured was inaccurate. Either way, just make sure you keep an eye on her and write down EVERYTHING that happens. This way if you hit trouble you can relay it to the vet accurately which will give him an indication of what to do. Normally in the excitement of everything it is easy to forget things that have happened which to you may seem irrelevant but to a vet or experienced breeder may indicate something a little more serious.


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Jess' temp only dropped below 37 for one reading I think the rest of the time it was 37.1 or 2. I think this is it! Fingers crossed.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

6pm temp: 38.1

Im getting confused now!!! 

she has had loads of wee's and 2 poo's and is now hovering around my toddler waiting for food to be dropped!! 

x


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Insane said:


> Jess' temp only dropped below 37 for one reading I think the rest of the time it was 37.1 or 2. I think this is it! Fingers crossed.


How long after the drop did she have the first pup? x


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

I would have to look back at my thread to be sure but I think about 10 hours until the pup actually arrived but I knew she definitely was in labour after about 6. Got to say though it was from the temp drop that she lost her appetite completely.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

7pm: 37.5

Another poo and more wee's.

Shes more relaxed now.

She just had like a little blob of jelly come away from her, it was very small not even the size of a 5p it was clear? 

x


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Sounds like her plug


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

8pm 37.5

x


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Any change yet?


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Any change yet?


Just done her temp, 37.2.
Shes sleeping now so gonna get my head down for a bit.
Hopefully she'l give a couple me hours, I will be right next to her.

x


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Still no pups. I think shes having me on. x


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Aww never mind you'll have pups in the end. What is today 61 or 62?


----------



## pika (Apr 6, 2010)

Aw hang in there, they'll come soon :thumbup:


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Day 62. Still shivering. x


----------



## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

OMG I have just spent an hour reading through this thread and I am getting really anxious!!

I hope you can give us some news soon


----------



## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

Any news yet? Waiting patiently. I hope Lady is OK.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Day 62.

still no news im afraid

she has been laying on her side today which she hasnt done for ages.
this evening she seems to be dripping from behind, started about 5pm. I have just taken her for a 15 min walk.

x


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Cant stand this much longer. come on girlie


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

9pm temp 37.0. 

Shes only picked at her dinner, normally scoffs the whole lot.

x


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

I reckon tomorrow is the day. Come on Lady.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

I hope so. x


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Day 63.

Still no puppies.

In the night we had digging scratching and panting. She also got into my cupboard and was laying on her side, I moved her into whelping box. She poo'd twice indoors in the night which is unlike her. She is now sleeping. x


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Still asleep!!!


----------



## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

Sounds like today could be the day, she sounds as if she is getting ready. Come on Lady u can do it.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Fingers crossed for today.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

shes awake now, panting on and off. x


----------



## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Hi Kiara,good luck with whelping,she seems to be taking forever lol,keeping you on your toes! but they WILL come out,so all the best hun xxx


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

lots of panting and quick breathing.

digging the sofa and whelp box.

shes tried to do lots of poos but only a little blob is coming out and its runny.

She is refusing food.

She just wants to lay down.

lots of little wee's.

She has a liquid coming out, sort of dripping slowly looks a bit like wee, is this her waters??

x


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Yay, I knew it would be today!

Is the fluid clear?


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Insane said:


> Yay, I knew it would be today!
> 
> Is the fluid clear?


sort of clear yellowy! unless she cant hold her bladder at the mo and its going out as its coming in???


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

kiara said:


> sort of clear yellowy! unless she cant hold her bladder at the mo and its going out as its coming in???


I am not sure, I can't remember it being yellow but my eyesight is not brilliant and the room was darkened both times. If no-one with more experience comes on then it may be worth just ringing your vet to check.


----------



## Callie (May 6, 2010)

Not got much experience but went through this 3 weeks ago. They do have some gooey stuff that comes out ...its kinda like vaseline. Ambers waters were just wee puddles about the place....no big gush or anything. Good luck!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

kiara said:


> lots of panting and quick breathing.
> 
> digging the sofa and whelp box.
> 
> ...


Sound like waters have broken. :thumbup:


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

puppy 1 half out


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

its half out, about 5 mins, should i help, she panting, not pushing


----------



## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Pushhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Just see this, what happening?


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

cant see anything just sac fluid??


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

don't worry as long as you can't see a pup. This will come out and burst before puppies, allow it to burst on its own. just a water sack


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

pushing again, lol i keep doing it with her!!!:lol:


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Watch you don't sh!t yourself.

How long she been pushing?


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Watch you don't sh!t yourself.


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Good luck


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

pmsl... 33 mins now.


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Is it definately just the sac, not a puppy half out????


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

archielee said:


> Good luck


A up stranger. How you doing?

@kiara---
Pushing hard?


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

a sac with dark at first then into clear....


----------



## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> A up stranger. How you doing?
> 
> @kiara---
> Pushing hard?


I'm good hun..... hows you doing


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

couple small pushes then lil break then pant then pushes


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

kiara said:


> a sac with dark at first then into clear....


Ah ok.  Come on girl, PUSH!!!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

If its dark its a puppy, clear/yellowy is a water sac


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

kiara said:


> couple small pushes then lil break then pant then pushes


Ok, this is fine, this is the start building up to huge pushes


----------



## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

Come on Lady we need some good big pushes, you can do it girl.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Oh come on sweetheart, keep going this as agony just waiting cant imagine how you 2 and tanya feel.:thumbup: for pups soon


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Oh come on sweetheart, keep going this as agony just waiting cant imagine how you 2 and tanya feel.:thumbup: for pups soon


lol, I'm itching


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Whats happening?


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

how long is ok pushing with this first bit?


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Do you have my number?


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> lol, I'm itching


I can imagine your a great support


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

kiara said:


> how long is ok pushing with this first bit?


I'd have had my fingers up there by now.


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

got no cred on my phone, other phone i cnt bloody get reception!!!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

kiara said:


> got no cred on my phone, other phone i cnt bloody get reception!!!


PM me number i'll ring you


----------



## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Hang in there hun,hopefully tanya will talk you through this bit.
All routing for you here xxx


----------



## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

Luvmydogs you must remember that this is Kiara,s first whelp and she is probably totally unsure as to what needs to be done to help this pup out, i don,t want to offend so please don,t take this the wrong way but a comment like yours if she had chance to read it may cause her to panic and that would be no good for either of them.
I say again please don,t take offence as it hasn,t been said to cause any


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Off to vet, dark green no pup


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Oh NO!!!!!


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

She says she'll ring me when she hears something. Not looking good for first pup in there, but hopefully rest will be fine


----------



## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

OH NO:eek6: How is Kiara coping Tanya? I wish her all the luck in the world although i know it does n,t sound good.


----------



## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

Does she know how many Lady is expecting? Glad to hear you believe the rest should be fine, i thought that they would have problems also.:thumbup:


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

She is very calm and coping well. Personally think it will be a c section, but fingers crossed the vet might be able to manipulate pup out and the rest will probably follow.


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Poor thing thanks for keeping us updated


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Oh dear fingers crossed.

Something may happen in the car on the way (that what happened to me with Jess' first litter)


----------



## Lucylewis0 (Aug 4, 2009)

Cor........... sounds like things could be getting tricky:frown:

Hope all is going be ok....fingers crossed.....x


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

On phone to kiara now. Pup 1 still born. Number 2 close behind


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Just got in and caught up on thread.....

WOW how tense. Are they still at vets Tanya? 2nd born ok?

So sorry about 1st lil one xx


----------



## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Awww RIP lil one!!!

Cross fingers the rest come out ok!!!!

Just read this post and now anxious and excited for her!!!


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

aaaaw dear but green before no pup is not good so you have done the right thing taking her the vets like Tanya says....fingers crossed the rest will be ok


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Oh no, what a shame,just lets hope the others are ok


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Not at vets, they managed to pull pup out. Tried to revive, but nothing. 4 rounds of resuscitation and swinging but sadly was not meant to be, placenta born before pup.
number 2 is beginning to make an appearance, no green with this pup, looks like placenta is attached still


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> Not at vets, they managed to pull pup out. Tried to revive, but nothing. 4 rounds of resuscitation and swinging but sadly was not meant to be, placenta born before pup.
> number 2 is beginning to make an appearance, no green with this pup, looks like placenta is attached still


did they try dopram v i always use this and it does work i hope the next one will be ok.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

No, there was nothing there at all, I didn't think this one would survive. was still inside 5min+ after placenta born


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> No, there was nothing there at all, I didn't think this one would survive. was still inside 5min+ after placenta born


yes sounds like there was not much more that they could do


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Tanya hows things looking with pup 2


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

more green now  pup 2 still not here


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> more green now  pup 2 still not here


aaaaw nooo Tanya please advice her go the vets


----------



## Guest (Jun 21, 2010)

cav said:


> aaaaw nooo Tanya please advice her go the vets


oh i agree with this i think she really needs to get her to a vet


----------



## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Thats why I would have had my fingers inside ages ago. Not trying to upset anyone, just saying what I would do.


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

2 dead too, 

3rd alive!!! :thumbup:

Vet failing to get in touch


----------



## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Oh my gosh I hope everything works out ok


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Please pass on Tanya, that we are all thinking of her and praying the rest of the whelp goes ok.

xx

EDIT.... has she got someone who can go and get her credit to be in touch with vets?


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> 2 dead too,
> 
> 3rd alive!!! :thumbup:
> 
> Vet failing to get in touch


ow dear but at least 3rd is alive and lets pray the rest are ok:thumbup:

is the vets not close my vets is open til 7 in the week


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Well done for the third one hope the rest are ok, so sorry for the first two little mites.


----------



## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

deb53 said:


> Please pass on Tanya, that we are all thinking of her and praying the rest of the whelp goes ok.
> 
> xx
> 
> EDIT.... has she got someone who can go and get her credit to be in touch with vets?


Agree with this! We are all thinking of her! Poor puppys!! Lets hope from now on all will be well. How many are meant to be there?


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Been in touch with vet they no show. pup 3 feeding


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Stud owner with her now too... vets aren't getting in touch. Don't think it will be long til next one comes


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Been in touch with vet they no show. pup 3 feeding


No show???

Sorry tanya, know your busy on phone so did Kiara get to vets for the first pup or all happen at home?

Has she got anyone helping her?

Sorry just seen your post now...must have posted at same time xx


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Tanya1989 said:


> Been in touch with vet they no show. pup 3 feeding


Some vets are grrrrrrrrrr
How many more??


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

deb53 said:


> No show???
> 
> Sorry tanya, know your busy on phone so did Kiara get to vets for the first pup or all happen at home?
> 
> Has she got anyone helping her?


i think it was all at home


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

cav said:


> i think it was all at home


What sort of vet doesn't answer to an emergency like that

I presumed 1st was born at the vets.

Fingers crossed for the rest of the litter.

RIP lil ones xxx


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Just got off the phone for a minute until next one starts arriving.

Tried to get in touch with vet: no response or waiting a call back. (not entirely sure)

To get everyone up to date in a more clear fashion lol:
Pup1: Stillborn boy (huge). Placenta born first. Pup was inside more than 5 mins after placenta delivered. Born blue and floppy, 4 rounds of resuscitation and swinging, nothing. I think probably drowned... RIP little one.

Pup2: Slightly smaller stillborn male. Green started as pup began to present. Tried to revive. No response. Placenta delivered after pup. RIP

Pup3: Born within 3 mins of pup 2. Sac cleared immediately. Breathing on its own, no stimulation required. Suckling.

Still waiting on 4 possibly 5.

Stud owner there too. She will ring if anything else happens.

ETA: all happened at home.


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

deb53 said:


> What sort of vet doesn't answer to an emergency like that
> 
> I presumed 1st was born at the vets.
> 
> ...


Yes such a shame and on you first litter as well

If that was my vet i would be looking for a new one


----------



## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

Just caught up, so sorry to hear that #2 pup also didn,t survive ( RIP little ones) . I wish both Lady AND Kiara all the luck and our love. 
Our thoughts are with you both


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

4th one alive... little girl :thumbup:


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> 4th one alive... little girl :thumbup:


Excellent news. :thumbup:

Do we know how many she was expecting?


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Definitely 1 more, possibly 2


----------



## cav (May 23, 2008)

Smashing thats great news:thumbup:


----------



## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> Thats why I would have had my fingers inside ages ago. Not trying to upset anyone, just saying what I would do.


yep i agree............


----------



## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Things looking a bit brighter, good luck to all of you for the next ones, youv'e all worked so hard


----------



## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Oh what a time you are having! RIP littles ones 
Congrats on the two new additions so far.
and GRRRRR to the vet!!


----------



## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Just got back in had to go out, I feel so wretched for her, so sorry to hear about the first two. I am glad things are looking a bit better now.


----------



## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

Things are looking a lot better now  Good luck Lady and Kiara


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

I think last one has been born. She said she'd ring if any problems and haven't heard anything so I'm assuming its ok (she was contracting waiting for 5th arrival)


----------



## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

Sooo sorry for the 2 you lost

Congrats on the others. Hope all is ok x


----------



## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

2 more born. 1 boy, 1 girl. Possibly one more in there.


----------



## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

Fingers crossed for mum and the rest of the pups, and RIP little ones who have gone to the bridge. xxx


----------



## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

So glad she is doing well now.:thumbup:


----------



## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

So sorry about the little ones, hope all is going ok now


----------



## ploddingon (Jun 15, 2010)

One thing this thread has taught me is that I would never have the nerve to have a bitch have puppies - it is nervewracking just reading about it!

Sorry you lost two pups, and hope the rest of the stay well


----------



## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Thats good news!! So she got 4 so far? 

Run free over the rainbow littluns Xxx


----------



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi everyone, thanks for your words of support.

What a day, im exhaused!

The first pup born had a massive head and placenta was born first. This pup sadly didnt make it. I think this pup suffercated, it took her 2 hours too pass him. She had a real hard time, bless her! Rip baby boy.

The second pup was smaller and i think this pup was dead in the womb. Rip baby boy. 

The last 4 pups were born with no problems at all. All healthy and suckling. All placentas seen and eaten.

pup 1: 15.30 grizzle dog 221g RIP
pup 2: 17.30 grizzle dog 218g RIP
pup 3: 18.15 Black/blue? bitch 218g
pup 4: 18.40 blue dog 241g
pup 5: 19.45 wheaten dog 240g
pup 6: 20.00 blue bitch 233g

Think were all done now. 

Thank you Tanya so much for all your help. you are a life saver. i couldnt of done it without you. xxx


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Congrats hun and congrats Lady!! She did a wonderful job!










Rip over the rainbow lil pups!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Pleased to hear the rest all did well. Here come the sleepless nights (and you thought labour was hard). Sleep tight little ones at the bridge. Just wasn't meant to be, but welcome to the world pups.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Pleased to hear the rest all did well. Here come the sleepless nights (and you thought labour was hard). Sleep tight little ones at the bridge. Just wasn't meant to be, but welcome to the world pups.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

RIP Little ones..

But congrats on the rest of your pups.. xxx


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## deb53 (Jun 4, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> RIP Little ones..
> 
> But congrats on the rest of your pups.. xxx


Night night Kiara. You did a fantastic job.

Rip 2 lil ones...run free.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

After last night lady had a nice big bowl of food, milk and water. She is tending to the babies when they cry but shes not overly protective of them and doesn't mind leaving them to go to the toilet. 

pups are doing well. I will upload some photos and new weights a bit later on,

thanks again for all your kind words.

x


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Aww well done Lady and Kiara. So have you got 4 pups then, what are their sexes?

You didn't an excellent job kiara well done again.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Well done to you Kiara and Tanya for helping out.

Sorry for the loss of the first 2, but thank goodness the rest were ok and are doing well.

Can't wait to see the photos!


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Insane said:


> Aww well done Lady and Kiara. So have you got 4 pups then, what are their sexes?
> 
> You didn't an excellent job kiara well done again.


thanks

2 blue bitches
1 wheaten dog
1 blue dog

x


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## LizzyDrip (May 13, 2010)

Congratulations to both yourself and Lady on the hard work.
So sorry 4 the loss of the 1st 2, ( RIP little ones). 
You and Tanya have done a brill job. 
Enjoy now, here is where the fun starts.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

puppy 1, blue bitch 232g
puppy 2, blue dog 253g
puppy 3, wheaten dog 257g
puppy 4, blue bitch 250g

need names people???

all gaining nicely. x


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Something to do with summer as they were born on the longest day of the year


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Something to do with summer as they were born on the longest day of the year


it certinaly felt like the longest day of the year!!!!

good idea. x


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

All very good weights. The kids names our pups, we have flapjack, Angel Cake, Cupcake, Muffin, Waffle, Cherry pie and Jammie Dodger. Luckily I have been able to extend all their names into their kennel club names.

Not sure what you could have for Summer names though! (my son just suggested Sprinkler, which could turn out to be very apt lol)


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Insane said:


> All very good weights. The kids names our pups, we have flapjack, Angel Cake, Cupcake, Muffin, Waffle, Cherry pie and Jammie Dodger. Luckily I have been able to extend all their names into their kennel club names.
> 
> Not sure what you could have for Summer names though! (my son just suggested Sprinkler, which could turn out to be very apt lol)


Hmmm.

How about Solstice, Sunbeam, Ray, Ice Cream, BBQ, Ice Pop, Lemonade, Strawberry, Sand, Festival, Pimms, Picnic just a few I can think of.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ime so glad it turned out well in the end, i think she had us all on the edge of our seats i was shattered thinking about you  but you must be so proud of mum and yourself, what a gem you had at the other end of the phone in tanya what a star! she is. so sorry for the 2 that didnt make it.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

The 2 boys that passed away we named Ben & Jerry. We may go for ice cream names as thats summery too.

Ice cream names please?


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## kaisa624 (Mar 5, 2010)

Strawberry, Cookie

I'm not good at this


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

ploddingon said:


> One thing this thread has taught me is that I would never have the nerve to have a bitch have puppies - it is nervewracking just reading about it!
> 
> Sorry you lost two pups, and hope the rest of the stay well


certainly is nerve racking. no matter how many litters you whelp every whelping is different.


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Cookie Dough
Phish food (ha Ha)

god I can't think of any more


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Mr Whippy. . . . . or is that showing my age

Toffee. . . . . could think of flavours if ice-cream names are too hard


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## Lucylewis0 (Aug 4, 2009)

Rasberry ripple
Bananarama Split
Yoko O'nuts
Tangerine Creme
Butterscotch
Black Cherry 
Purple Hazelnut
Daquirie Ice Cube
Oreo Speedwagon
Mariah Cherry
Jonny Cashew
PaveMint
Cowboy Junkie Chunkies
VaNeila Young
Vanilla Millie
Chumbawumba
Chunk Berry
Vanilla Ice(cream)
Soul Toffee-ing
JanIce Topping
Mango Garcia
Spice Swirls
Crispy, Stills, and Pistashí
Elvis Carmello
Boyznberry to Men
Almond Brothers
Randy Rocky Rhodes
Mint Deville
Herseyís Kiss
Edie Butter-Brickell
Franks & Cinnamonatra
Chris Marshmellow
The Fudgees
The Fudger Sound of London
Spumonie Love
Raspberry Sorbet


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

I have just read your thread, I am so sorry about the first two puppies, how sad. But a big congratulations on the other little ones. Some vets make me soooo mad, they should of got back to you straight away, Good old Tanya she is a gem. :thumbup:

Names.........
Tanya.
P.F.
Summer.
Rose.
Lilly.
June.
Fudge.
Muffin.
Buttons.
JJ.
Tilly.
Rolly.
Rolo
Ruffles.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

dexter said:


> certainly is nerve racking. no matter how many litters you whelp every whelping is different.


yes it is and i always worry with every litter i have it always makes you think is it worth all the stress.
people only see cute pups and dont want think about when things go wrong..breeding is bloody hard and cruel at times.


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> I have just read your thread, I am so sorry about the first two puppies, how sad. But a big congratulations on the other little ones. Some vets make me soooo mad, they should of got back to you straight away, Good old Tanya she is a gem. :thumbup:
> 
> Names.........
> Tanya.
> ...


good names for the babies:thumbup: one should defo be TANYA LOL


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Pffff you are not naming a dog after me lol!

Did you have a wheaten girl? If so Butterscotch.... so cute!


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

xxwelshcrazyxx said:


> I have just read your thread, I am so sorry about the first two puppies, how sad. But a big congratulations on the other little ones. Some vets make me soooo mad, they should of got back to you straight away, Good old Tanya she is a gem. :thumbup:
> 
> Names.........
> Tanya.
> ...


Less of the old


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## Spaniel mad (Jul 17, 2009)

Lucylewis0 said:


> Rasberry ripple
> Bananarama Split
> Yoko O'nuts
> Tangerine Creme
> ...


Ummm me thinks you like ice cream lol


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## Lucylewis0 (Aug 4, 2009)

Spaniel mad said:


> Ummm me thinks you like ice cream lol


lol................. googled icecream names :lol:

Can't wait to see pictures of the puppies, sorry about the two you lost.
Run free Ben and Jerry xx


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Lucylewis0 said:


> lol................. googled icecream names :lol:
> 
> Can't wait to see pictures of the puppies, sorry about the two you lost.
> Run free Ben and Jerry xx


i have started a new thread with the pics.

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/108491-ladys-babies-xxxx.html


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Tanya1989 said:


> Pffff you are not naming a dog after me lol!
> 
> Did you have a wheaten girl? If so Butterscotch.... so cute!


Have a wheaten boy. i have been thinking about that. x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

so far I have

butterscotch
fudge
vanilla
almond
caramel
toffee
treacle
cookie
muffin
cocoa

I will get some individual pictures later of the pups when I do there weights.

xx


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Day 3

LADYS PUPS ARE COMING ALONG LOVELY.

i am keeping 1 bitch and the other is reserved by a lady on my waiting list. she will be living the high life on a farm. her name will be pickles. :thumbup:

weights;

pup 1: 284g
pup 2: 327g
pup 3: 308g
pup 4: 328g

xx


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