# Rouge traders



## -misty- (Feb 13, 2009)

it's currently on bbc1


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## Melysia (Feb 9, 2009)

Beat me to it!


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

am watching it


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## deedeedee (Apr 2, 2008)

poor pups

D x


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

poor puppy


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Am watching so sad.


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## deedeedee (Apr 2, 2008)

What a horrible man


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

ggggrrr i would love to push that stupid man back idiot!


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

effing ba$tards


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I have it on record as my family want to watch Master chef but I did miss 2 minutes of it due to family arguments :mad2:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

shoot the Scumbags


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

hopefully it will be a warning to future puppy buyers


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I have no words for that


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

i never knew dogs and cats were sold in pet shops? I dont think anywhere here sells them i could be wrong tho


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

And they still didn't tell you where or how to buy a well bred puppy did they Grrrrr


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Well as mad as I am I have to say I do not think you saw what it is 'really like'
DT


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## Gem24 (Feb 18, 2009)

I cant believe that every one of the pups were ill! I would never buy a dog from someone who didn't love them!


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Can you imagine what it was like in the actual kennels. Doesn't bear thinking about.

10 years ago i was stupid enough to buy a puppy from a pet shop.

Sheperd collie cross. Tilly had serious behavioural issues that resulted in us having to take her to Wood Green when she was 18 months as we had run out of options and just simply did not have the expertise to turn her around.

It was 6 months before i could bring myself to ring the shelter and ask where she was re homed. The poor woman on the phone had to explain to me that she had been PTS as she had severe hip displasia and they were unable to re home her in that condition. It was felt that may have contributed to her aggression and behavioural difficulties.

I have never forgiven myself for perpetuating the misery these dogs must live in and it was 10 years before i owned another dog

RIP Tilly xxxx

These people are scum


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## Gem24 (Feb 18, 2009)

rainy said:


> Can you imagine what it was like in the actual kennels. Doesn't bear thinking about.
> 
> 10 years ago i was stupid enough to buy a puppy from a pet shop.
> 
> ...


That is so awful! its not your fault though, we should be able to go to pet shops and not worry about these things! Its terrible these people are not even considering the animals or the damage they cause to the people who have to live with the pain of similar situations as yours!:sad:


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i never knew dogs and cats were sold in pet shops?


The pet shop featured is just down the road from where I live.

On the day after the 'pedigree dogs programme' was shown, I spoke to two dog walkers who were commenting on it that had bought pets from this shop. Both were extolling the virtue of the pet shop saying their dogs were healthy not like those awful show bred ones.....

It is a sad reflection on how people really are ignorant when it comes to puppy buying.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

people need to be educated on where to find a well bred pup. if these farms can't be shut down then they will themselves if people stop buying from them. what did docking or whatever it was mean? sorry i know nothing about dogs


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## muppetandgemma (Feb 4, 2009)

I cannot believe that they are still selling and breeding these puppies. I have found there details on the net and there telephone number is still active so feel free to give these evil people a call
I wish I hadnt watched it now as seeing those puppies die before there time is so heartbreaking they never stood a chance


PLEASE CLICK ON THE COMPANY NAME FOR FULL COMPANY DETAILS, HYPERLINKS AND CLASSIFIED ADVERTISING... 
Company details: Lakeside Kennels 

Company: Lakeside Kennels 

Address: Coed Y Pry
Cynltwyd Isaf, Bala
Gwinedd
Wales
Wales
LL23 7DE 

Contact: Trevor Jones 

Telephone: 01678 540 628 / 07773 334 383 

Profile: Pedigree puppies, westies, cavaliers,, cockers, shitzus, labradors, jack russels all vet checked, boarder collies. Boxers other various breeds licensed kennels. Delivery available, 6 weeks insurance card payment acc. 

Category: kennels 

County scope: wales


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

LOL . They are going to get a very sleepless night if you lot all start ringing. Not that i am suggesting you should call every 2 minutes for the next month on a rota because that might put them out of business


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

rainy said:


> Can you imagine what it was like in the actual kennels. Doesn't bear thinking about.
> 
> 10 years ago i was stupid enough to buy a puppy from a pet shop.
> 
> ...


can't find a 'crying button' else i'd be using it!
RIP Tilly


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Funny it was so long ago my OH and i hadn't realised how badly it had affected us until i started talking about getting a puppy again.

Can't talk about it even 10 years down the line without getting upset. 

The pet shop couldn't have given a toss when i wrote and "advised" them (couldn't be trusted to go and see them face to face i would have been arrested). Think it's still there


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

I missed it  does anyone know if it repeats?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Biawhiska said:


> people need to be educated on where to find a well bred pup. if these farms can't be shut down then they will themselves if people stop buying from them. what did docking or whatever it was mean? sorry i know nothing about dogs


Docking is when they shorten the dogs tail


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Nay mind.. I'm watching it on the website now... :blink:


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## pommum (Jun 16, 2008)

I've got it recorded on sky+ so I will watch it tomorrow as the OH is watching James Bond :Yawn:

take care

Sarah


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

tashi said:


> Docking is when they shorten the dogs tail


thankyou for explaining, why would people want to do that


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Biawhiska said:


> thankyou for explaining, why would people want to do that


necessity with some working dogs - springers for example when working the undergrowth quite often take the end off an undocked tail causing lots of damage


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

You can stil get the tails docked legally in the UK - but you will need a vet would is willing to do this , - it is now illegal to have a dog docked without the supporting paperwork I believe.
DT


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> You can stil get the tails docked legally in the UK - but you will need a vet would is willing to do this , - it is now illegal to have a dog docked without the supporting paperwork I believe.
> DT


Just to add to this it has be proven by the breeder that the dog is intended to work.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> Just to add to this it has be proven by the breeder that the dog is intended to work.


Spot on - sorry I failed to menton that it's this bl**dy superglue limiting my typing!


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## Mese (Jun 5, 2008)

I like Rogue Trader normally , but I think they could have been so much more informative about this subject than they were 

In my opinion a lot of chances to TRULY inform the public about what byb and puppy farmers are and what to look out for were lost


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Mese said:


> I like Rogue Trader normally , but I think they could have been so much more informative about this subject than they were
> 
> In my opinion a lot of chances to TRULY inform the public about what byb and puppy farmers are and what to look out for were lost


I agree,alot more info was needed.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> n my opinion a lot of chances to TRULY inform the public about what byb and puppy farmers are and what to look out for were lost


I agree - very disappointing. From memory, the only thing they mentioned was seeing the mother with the puppies  a lost opportunity


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Lots of people have seen this programme tonight wonder if Mr Jones is worried about sleeping there tonight.
I know i would be....
Think he best sleep with one eye open.
Yikes all his contact details are everywhere.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Lots of people have seen this programme tonight wonder if Mr Jones is worried about sleeping there tonight.
> I know i would be....
> Think he best sleep with one eye open.
> Yikes all his contact details are everywhere.


We can wish Colsy , we can wish, but I fear the activists will be directing the energies in other directions at the moment - like preparing for crufts!!! Would love to hear of the/see them tackling this guy
DT


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> We can wish Colsy , we can wish, but I fear the activists will be directing the energies in other directions at the moment - like preparing for crufts!!! Would love to hear of the/see them tackling this guy
> DT


You never know..they may have seen what this horrible man does.
We were all just talking about them hitting this guys buildings.
We can live in hope.
Why didn't Matthew call the police when he was pushing him i would have done.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2009)

Colsy said:


> You never know..they may have seen what this horrible man does.
> We were all just talking about them hitting this guys buildings.
> We can live in hope.
> Why didn't Matthew call the police when he was pushing him i would have done.


I got the impression - that the police couldn't really care less when Jones blocked the road the police actually told the TV crew that they were trespassing!
I also got the impreesion that the police officer involved knew the jones fellow by the way he spoke to him - which was imo way too politly!
DT


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

Mese said:


> I like Rogue Trader normally , but I think they could have been so much more informative about this subject than they were
> 
> In my opinion a lot of chances to TRULY inform the public about what byb and puppy farmers are and what to look out for were lost


That's exactly what I was going to put on here. It was a good programme, and i'm glad the BBC have taken the time to try and at least show people that it is going on, however I think for it to have any real effect, it should've been a proper hour long documentary like Panorama, and really shown people some awful, shocking images. Rogue Traders was almost light hearted in the way it was broadcast, I don't think it'd really grab people's attention. It needed to be far more factual and far more shocking than it was. I was surprised at how mild some of the images were.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

Would like to know why the RSPCA didn't shut down the kennels with Parvo.

I new someone who ended up with a puppy with Parvo and she was told not to have another dog for 3 years !!!!!

All these places will do following that programme is create a "cosy" looking kennel where they can put Mum and puppies for viewings.

There needs to be tighter regulations on the circumstances you can breed animal in. Maybe a star system like the food standards agency use would help the public make more informed choices.


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## loopylisa2009 (Jan 28, 2009)

I also watched it last night and although I went through a range of emotions, shock, teard, anger, its not bad enough that these farms breed and sell like this, but the fact that they will continue to do so as it appears no authority was too bothered about what was happening. xx lisa xx


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## reddogs (Feb 6, 2009)

rainy said:


> Would like to know why the RSPCA didn't shut down the kennels with Parvo.


You obviously missed the bit that said they didn't find any - well obviously they didn't he had 24hrs to tidy up

From that it would appear that the RSPCA are good as vets but not a lot else when it comes to places like that or indeed the other one where she has a huge selection of dogs docked or otherwise (legally or not) healthy or not grrrr


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

i didn't miss that bit but thought the Rough Traders video evidence would have been enough considering the poor thing died within 24 hours !!


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Myself and my o/h thought the programe was too light hearted and far more could have been coverd.*


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

tashi said:


> necessity with some working dogs - springers for example when working the undergrowth quite often take the end off an undocked tail causing lots of damage


Thankyou for explaining that.


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## Tigerneko (Jan 2, 2009)

JANICE199 said:


> *Myself and my o/h thought the programe was too light hearted and far more could have been coverd.*


yeah that's what I thought, it was a bit of a waste of what coulda potentially been a proper eye opener to people  
maybe they should follow it up with a proper documentary.


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm sure that Welsh breeder was also featured on another programme about puppy farmers on a Welsh language programme. I saw it from a link on another forum where it had subtitles and it was in 2 parts. He got quite nasty with the reporter on that one as well, and that time it was a woman.

I agree the programme could have been more informative, but we have to remember it went fairly early in the evening and couldn't be too graphic because of the watershed.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

If you had ever been to a puppy farm (and they are not only in Wales!!) the conditions the dogs are kept in are so horrific that they probably wouldnt have shown them even if the cameras had got in there, these are the pups that are for sale for 'big' money in Harrods etc. I have had a rescued golden from a puppy farm and bless her heart she lived out her last 6 weeks in total bliss - but she was totally blind and had cancer running right through her body, she was rescued by some lovely people who raided the farm in the middle of the night and rescued some 20+ brood bitches from there all kept in horrendous conditions.

As long as these people can get folks to go and view there are not many that can turn down a puppy once they have seen it :angry:


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

tashi said:


> As long as these people can get folks to go and view there are not many that can turn down a puppy once they have seen it :angry:


And that is the problem,people think they are doing the dogs a favour but infact all they are doing is causing more misery and pain,as long as people buy they will keep breeding.

Puppy farming is wrong,it's sickening,but it's not illegal sadly.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

It really needs a big national campaign from someone like RSPCA to educate the public.

It's not rocket science just a few pointers for people. Do's and Dont's. If it's an ad campaign people will pick up on it without realising.

The programme last night could have gone further with its advice without being graphic i think.

I said this in another thread i think there should still be a dog licence.

You would need to apply BEFORE you collect your puppy (this cuts out people making impulse buys on the roadside or in pet shops) and could include information on purchasing a puppy ie do's and dont's.

Simple :


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

sallyanne said:


> And that is the problem,people think they are doing the dogs a favour but infact all they are doing is causing more misery and pain,as long as people buy they will keep breeding.
> 
> Puppy farming is wrong,it's sickening,but it's not illegal sadly.


In fact the government funded some of them after the bringing in of milk quotas


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

It is a difficult one all round. We all agree that puppy farms need to be got rid of. The first problem is what is a puppy farm? There are a lot of very good commercial breeders who do look after their dogs and do it the right way, just because they are commercial doesn't make them a puppy farm. Is there a legal definition of a puppy farm? How do we identify a puppy farm from a commercial breeder?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

spoodlemum said:


> It is a difficult one all round. We all agree that puppy farms need to be got rid of. The first problem is what is a puppy farm? There are a lot of very good commercial breeders who do look after their dogs and do it the right way, just because they are commercial doesn't make them a puppy farm. Is there a legal definition of a puppy farm? How do we identify a puppy farm from a commercial breeder?


i dont like the idea of commercial breeders either, get rid of them aswell


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

rainy said:


> It really needs a big national campaign from someone like RSPCA to educate the public.


The problem is its the RSPCA and the councils that are licensing these people as shown last night the RSCPA failed to find the conditions at that puppy farm below standards. How on earth they couldn't find traces of Parvo when quiet obviously the place is riddled with it is beyond me!!! It's up to the general public to hit everyone involved in either running or licencing these places where it hurts....the pocket!!

I was very glad that the program finally (annoyed it took til the end of it but at least they did it!!) remind people about rescue dogs, makes me laugh when people say they won't take on a rescue cos they don't the the parentage but then quiet happily go and spend £100's of pounds at one of those horrific places!!!ut:ut: The big few rescues have the best facilities and ensure the dogs are in perfect health before rehoming.

How those people can sleep at night I don't know. I just hope karma is working and comes back to them in bucket loads.



noushka05 said:


> i dont like the idea of commercial breeders either, get rid of them aswell


Yeap me to. If (and hell would freeze over before I did it) ever bought a dog I would ensure it was from someone who's dogs are raised in a family home, with the dogs living inside and treated as a pet. How you can justify buying any dog from a cage, no matter how clean or well kept, escapes me.


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't have a problem with commercial breeders as long as they look after the dogs properly. How do we identify puppy farms?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

JSR said:


> The problem is its the RSPCA and the councils that are licensing these people as shown last night the RSCPA failed to find the conditions at that puppy farm below standards. How on earth they couldn't find traces of Parvo when quiet obviously the place is riddled with it is beyond me!!! It's up to the general public to hit everyone involved in either running or licencing these places where it hurts....the pocket!!
> 
> I was very glad that the program finally (annoyed it took til the end of it but at least they did it!!) remind people about rescue dogs, makes me laugh when people say they won't take on a rescue cos they don't the the parentage but then quiet happily go and spend £100's of pounds at one of those horrific places!!!ut:ut: The big few rescues have the best facilities and ensure the dogs are in perfect health before rehoming.
> 
> ...


too right JSR!


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## silver_pigeon (Mar 25, 2008)

I saw this last night and it had me absolutely fuming!

I felt so so sorry for those poor puppies, the conditions they are in and that they are being so interbred that they have all sorts of terrible hereditary issues!

:frown:I know I'm soft, but was almost in tears by the end, what is wrong with these stupid, cruel, excuses for human beings!

As if the world does not have enough unwanted dogs currently looking for homes, these complete heartless prats are just breeding more!

:mad2:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

spoodlemum said:


> I don't have a problem with commercial breeders as long as they look after the dogs properly. How do we identify puppy farms?


commercial breeders, puppy farmers not a lot of difference in my eyes, rubbish quality of life either way


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> commercial breeders, puppy farmers not a lot of difference in my eyes, rubbish quality of life either way


I do think that's very unfair. If a commercial breeder does a good job of breeding healthy puppies in an evironment where the dogs are looked after properly there can be no comparison with what I view as a puppy farm - somewhere where they don't breed healthy puppies, where they breed from unhealthy dogs, too often and in bad conditions.

There are some commercial breeders who don't keep all their dogs in cages all the time!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

spoodlemum said:


> I do think that's very unfair. If a commercial breeder does a good job of breeding healthy puppies in an evironment where the dogs are looked after properly there can be no comparison with what I view as a puppy farm - somewhere where they don't breed healthy puppies, where they breed from unhealthy dogs, too often and in bad conditions.
> 
> There are some commercial breeders who don't keep all their dogs in cages all the time!


dogs need a lot of human interaction, when there is so many dogs how can time be devoted to individuals? they are still just breeding machines its no way for any dog to live.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> There are some commercial breeders who don't keep all their dogs in cages all the time!


But they are in cages. How is that a life? My JRT came from a breeding kennels. He's 2 years old, he'd never been in a house, he'd never been to the beach (even though he lived 1 mile from it), he'd never worn a collar or walked on a lead, he'd never run like a lunatic with a pack of dogs...and he was kept by a 'good commerical breeder'. In your opinion did Sumo have a life before? Cos I know what I think.


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

Let's be honest here, a good commercial breeder is better than a bad breeder who does it at home. Yes, in an ideal world only good home breeders would be allowed but we all know that is never going to happen. 

If there is to be a serious attempt to get rid of puppy farms the first thing to do is identify what is a puppy farm. By 'lumping in' good commercial breeders with puppy farmers you immediately dilute any argument you have to get rid of a puppy farm.

Surely the best thing would be for proper inspections, licensing and punishments of bad breeders, but who should be responsible for that and who will bear the costs?


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

But you didn't answer my question? Did Sumo have a life before being given to rescue by his good commerical breeder?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

spoodlemum said:


> Let's be honest here, a good commercial breeder is better than a bad breeder who does it at home. Yes, in an ideal world only good home breeders would be allowed but we all know that is never going to happen.
> 
> If there is to be a serious attempt to get rid of puppy farms the first thing to do is identify what is a puppy farm. By 'lumping in' good commercial breeders with puppy farmers you immediately dilute any argument you have to get rid of a puppy farm.
> 
> Surely the best thing would be for proper inspections, licensing and punishments of bad breeders, but who should be responsible for that and who will bear the costs?


while ever you allow any breeding on a commercial scale you will get suffering, so get rid of the lot!


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

JSR said:


> But they are in cages. How is that a life? My JRT came from a breeding kennels. He's 2 years old, he'd never been in a house, he'd never been to the beach (even though he lived 1 mile from it), he'd never worn a collar or walked on a lead, he'd never run like a lunatic with a pack of dogs...and he was kept by a 'good commerical breeder'. In your opinion did Sumo have a life before? Cos I know what I think.


I don't know if the breeder I used would be classed as a commercial breeder. She breeds several times a year and has lots of dogs. However, when we collected our puppies they were indoors in a room specifically for the new mum and her pups. I think most of her dogs are kept outside but there were some indoors. The pups were with their mum in a very large crate in what was obviously a room specifically for them, with just a settee, a couple of chairs and a coffee table. Her children would be in and out playing with the puppies and they were very well socialised.

When we arrived she asked if I wanted to see her other dogs and she then stood at the bottom of a very large garden and shouted. About 10 dogs came running. They were all very happy and covered in mud where it had been raining. So yes they may be kept in outdoor kennels but they were loved and were happy.

By the way, police dogs are kept in outdoor kennels most of the time when they are at home. They usually go indoors for the evening and are outside the rest of the time - do you think that's wrong?


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

JSR said:


> But you didn't answer my question? Did Sumo have a life before being given to rescue by his good commerical breeder?


To me that's not a good commercial breeder! They weren't taking the dog's needs into account.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> By the way, police dogs are kept in outdoor kennels most of the time when they are at home. They usually go indoors for the evening and are outside the rest of the time - do you think that's wrong?


Police dogs are working dog not money making machines for someone, there NO comparison. Police dogs are guaranteed a safe and comfortable retirement with their handler or specially selected adoptee's, police dogs are not required to pump out litter after litter to then be dumped at a rescues doorstep (if they are lucky) or kept locked in the cages once their useful life is done.

I can't comment on the person you bought your dogs from but in my eyes someone that has numerous dogs that are specifically used for the purpose of making money and not furthering the breed are puppy farmers. They are farming out puppy's for profit. End of.


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> To me that's not a good commercial breeder! They weren't taking the dog's needs into account.


Why is it that different from where you bought your dogs? He went for walks once a day around the land and he had company of other dogs. He just had a cage to stare out of for 23 hours of the day as opposed to a home and a family.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

while ever dogs are being bred to make a profit people will cut corners to save money & its at the expence of those poor dogs welfare


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

JSR said:


> Police dogs are working dog not money making machines for someone, there NO comparison. Police dogs are guaranteed a safe and comfortable retirement with their handler or specially selected adoptee's, police dogs are not required to pump out litter after litter to then be dumped at a rescues doorstep (if they are lucky) or kept locked in the cages once their useful life is done.
> 
> I can't comment on the person you bought your dogs from but in my eyes someone that has numerous dogs that are specifically used for the purpose of making money and not furthering the breed are puppy farmers. They are farming out puppy's for profit. End of.


But you are missing the point. By lumping all commercial breeders, good or bad, into the puppy farming bracket you will never get rid of real puppy farmers.

A commercial breeder can care for their dogs, can ensure they have good lives, can do all the health checks, can make sure the puppies (and mother's when no longer breeding) go to good homes. A puppy farmer does none of these things and by suggesting we get rid of all commercial breeders we will never be able to get rid of the bad ones because the good ones have a right to carry on their business. I think we have to accept that commercial breeding will go on so why not do the best we can to get rid of the real puppy farmers who don't care for the dogs?

By the way, my breeder actually also breeds ASD's and does quite a lot to further that breed (regardless of whether you or I think that is a 'breed' in the conventional sense).


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

I personally don't agree with puppy farming or commercial breeding,breeding should be done for a purpose,not run as a business.

Commercial breeding is still producing a massive amount of puppies purely for fiancial gain.


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

In an ideal world I agree - but we all know commercial breeding is going to go on. It is not illegal and the commercial breeders have a right to do it. So how do we differentiate between a commercial breeder and a puppy farm?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

spoodlemum said:


> But you are missing the point. By lumping all commercial breeders, good or bad, into the puppy farming bracket you will never get rid of real puppy farmers.
> 
> A commercial breeder can care for their dogs, can ensure they have good lives, can do all the health checks, can make sure the puppies (and mother's when no longer breeding) go to good homes. A puppy farmer does none of these things and by suggesting we get rid of all commercial breeders we will never be able to get rid of the bad ones because the good ones have a right to carry on their business. I think we have to accept that commercial breeding will go on so why not do the best we can to get rid of the real puppy farmers who don't care for the dogs?
> 
> By the way, my breeder actually also breeds ASD's and does quite a lot to further that breed (regardless of whether you or I think that is a 'breed' in the conventional sense).


how do you feel about keeping zoo animals in cages? dogs in rescues often suffer emotionally because they have to spend long periods in such an environment, to me its inhumane to keep an animal like this for their entire breeding life & when these animals are no longer "useful" what happens to them then? Are they dumped on rescues,destroyed?


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> But you are missing the point. By lumping all commercial breeders, good or bad, into the puppy farming bracket you will never get rid of real puppy farmers.
> 
> A commercial breeder can care for their dogs, can ensure they have good lives, can do all the health checks, can make sure the puppies (and mother's when no longer breeding) go to good homes. A puppy farmer does none of these things and by suggesting we get rid of all commercial breeders we will never be able to get rid of the bad ones because the good ones have a right to carry on their business. I think we have to accept that commercial breeding will go on so why not do the best we can to get rid of the real puppy farmers who don't care for the dogs?
> 
> By the way, my breeder actually also breeds ASD's and does quite a lot to further that breed (regardless of whether you or I think that is a 'breed' in the conventional sense).


Obviously our view of a 'good life' is different then. To me a good life is spent with canine company, in a family home, daily exercise, exposurer (sp) to new surroundings, food, affection and human contact. A good life breeding numerous litters and having limited human contact or interaction, enclosed in the same environment (sp) isn't something I strive to achieve for my pack.

How is the general public supposed to tell the difference between a puppy farm and a commerical breeder? I've seen both of these types of breeders and I struggle sometimes to tell the diffence so how would someone not involved in animal welfare issues begin to start? Cages of dogs is cages of dogs no matter how you sugar coat it.

Personally in my little perfect world there would be no mass breeding, breeding would be done only to further the pedigree breeds and maintain it's standing in this country. Pipe dream but girl has to have something to dream about.


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## ERKK (Feb 17, 2009)

The kennels in bedfordshire where the jack russell was brought is a minute round the corner form me, they ALWAYS have different breeds for sale, they have a big board out the front of the gates with a list of puppies for sale. I found the program very sad


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> In an ideal world I agree - but we all know commercial breeding is going to go on. It is not illegal and the commercial breeders have a right to do it. So how do we differentiate between a commercial breeder and a puppy farm?


There isn't a big difference in my eyes,they are both breeding for one reason only ££££££.
The only difference is the puppy farm dogs are usually kept in dirty conditions.

I believe it's a privilege to own and breed from a dog not a right.No one has the right to expolite animals.This is exactly what commercial breeders and puppy farmers are doing expoliting dogs for fiancial gain.


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

So we are all agreed - in an ideal world there would be no commercial breeders. But there are, and they are legal and they are not going to disappear in a puff of smoke. They are legally entitled to carry on their business.

So how do we get rid of the bad breeders like the ones shown last night? We can't just say we don't like any commercial breeders full stop. There are some extremely bad ones out there and what can be done to stop them.? 

This isn't a debate about commercial breeders, it may not be popular but they are always going to be there. That being the case do we just put our heads in the sand and ignore all commercial breeders or, as I think we should do, do we target the bad ones and how?


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> So we are all agreed - in an ideal world there would be no commercial breeders. But there are, and they are legal and they are not going to disappear in a puff of smoke. They are legally entitled to carry on their business.
> 
> So how do we get rid of the bad breeders like the ones shown last night? We can't just say we don't like any commercial breeders full stop. There are some extremely bad ones out there and what can be done to stop them.?
> 
> This isn't a debate about commercial breeders, it may not be popular but they are always going to be there. That being the case do we just put our heads in the sand and ignore all commercial breeders or, as I think we should do, do we target the bad ones and how?


Very difficult isn't it ?

Education goes someway,but as already mentioned people are taking / buying these pups / dogs because they struggle to leave them there,I have never put myself in this position but granted it must be extremely difficult to turn your back and walk away.
Could I do it,I honestly don't know,when faced with a litter of cute puppies,peoples common sense goes out of the window 

I think Legislation is needed to regulate the breeding,sale and advertising of dogs.Until this happens, if at all, nothing much will change sadly 

It is far too easy to buy a dog and breed from it,I could go out today and buy an inseason bitch mate it with my dog and hey presto in 9 weeks I have a litter,feed them junk,no registrations,no vet check,no stud fee,no advertising fee etc = good profit margin.


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

How would people feel if EVERY puppy had to be microchipped so it could be tracked? What about paying a fee for every dog you own - like the old dog licence but actually funding regulators who could check kennels, breeders etc? Imposing penalties (real ones that have an impact!) on breeders (home or commercial) who do not health test and do not keep animals in good conditions? What about authorities able to check individual homes to make sure animals are kept in good conditions?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

i would agree to anything if it improved the lives of dogs


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## JSR (Jan 2, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> How would people feel if EVERY puppy had to be microchipped so it could be tracked? What about paying a fee for every dog you own - like the old dog licence but actually funding regulators who could check kennels, breeders etc? Imposing penalties (real ones that have an impact!) on breeders (home or commercial) who do not health test and do not keep animals in good conditions? What about authorities able to check individual homes to make sure animals are kept in good conditions?


I would be quiet happy if those restrictions could be enforced. BUT with the ineffectual animals welfare depts we have from this government that's never going to happen and most certainly not going to be enforced. You only have to look at the appauling conditions that farm animals are kept in to see that DEFRA has absolutely no control over it (good god they ring to advise farmers of 'spot checks' :mad2 A registration and microchipping scheme will never be monitored or enforced.

Horse passports were supposed to be similar to the scheme you suggest, that's a joke ..at the expense of the average horse owner. Those of us naive enough to think it might work invested time and money registering, only to find 5 years on the scheme is unmonitored, unsupported and totally unworkable. Horses are still transported and sold countrywide without any checks on the passports, also passports are forged and alterned with no recourse. Once again the bodies supposed to be monitoring are no where to be seen.


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## spoodlemum (Oct 3, 2008)

I think the biggest problem we, as dog lovers, face is that responsible breeders/owners will comply with any laws as we have the animals interest at heart. The irresponsible owners/breeders won't. 

It is very easy to look at the big picture and be negative 'There's nothing we can do' - what I'm looking for is some idea of what we CAN do. It appears the authorities who could do something are completely ineffectual and the penalties, if any are imposed, are laughable. Has anyone got any experience of actually getting something positive done?


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## BASSETTARNOLD (Feb 20, 2009)

I am new to this site but after watching Rouge traders last night and reading comments by dog lovers on-line, I want to let everyone known I work and live very close to Bala so will make sure everyone locally finds out what a horrible evil place Lakeside is. There website is no longer working but his telephone is!!!! Puppy farms like the one in Bala need to be closed down!!!


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## BASSETTARNOLD (Feb 20, 2009)

Hi, just read your comment on-line, so registered with this website. I live very near to Bala and Im going to make sure Trevor and his family stop trading. Thanks for the phone number will come in very usful.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

spoodlemum said:


> I think the biggest problem we, as dog lovers, face is that responsible breeders/owners will comply with any laws as we have the animals interest at heart. The irresponsible owners/breeders won't.
> 
> It is very easy to look at the big picture and be negative 'There's nothing we can do' - what I'm looking for is some idea of what we CAN do. It appears the authorities who could do something are completely ineffectual and the penalties, if any are imposed, are laughable. Has anyone got any experience of actually getting something positive done?


We can keep campaigning for a change in the law,we need to regulate breeding in the UK,we can keep trying to educate potential puppy buyers.

As I stated before unless breeding,advertising and sales of dogs are regulated there will always be PF's, Irresponsible Breeders, Irresponsible Owners, and a Rescue Crisis


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2009)

sallyanne said:


> We can keep campaigning for a change in the law,we need to regulate breeding in the UK,we can keep trying to educate potential puppy buyers.
> 
> As I stated before unless breeding,advertising and sales of dogs are regulated there will always be PF's, Irresponsible Breeders, Irresponsible Owners, and a Rescue Crisis


Definately. The ONLY way to deal with this is to EDUCATE the general public. That will not stop it altogether but people need to be aware of what they are buying in to when they support these puppy traders.

Maybe as puppies get more expensive in general people will think more about the quality of what they are buying. If they think they are getting a sub standard "product" they might think twice.

That's why it's annoying the programme didn't go a bit further. Anyone got Hugh Fernley Wittingstalls number, maybe divert his attention from the chickens for a while 

No one is going to take on the responsibility of regulating these people too much time ,money ,and effort required with no financial gain for anyone. It's a sad world.


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## Camsie84 (Jan 29, 2008)

Personally I thought that the show was a wasted opportunity. The light-hearted jokey nature of it really angered me - its not a joke, its an enormously serious subject, and should have been dealt with in such a manner.

I think the BBC should have made a much harder hitting serious documentary about this awful practise and cruel activity


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## LesleyR25 (Feb 16, 2009)

camsie84 I completely agree! Very poor effort on the BBC's part. This program is watched by thousands throughout the country. Actual it is one of those ones that you find talked about between families, friends and even in the work place. 

They could have raised so many more valid points and provided basic information that many are unaware of. I was angered by the 'fun' element of last nights program. 

A good chance to educate thousand was well and truly missed!


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## Laureng05 (Oct 2, 2009)

I watched this programme, it made me sick but it is happenning everywhere.

This guy needs to be stopped and if we cannot stop him and all the other puppy farms, we need to raise the awareness of them.

I have just created a site and it is under construction, to help raise the awareness of puppy farms.

I would be very grateful if you would also sign my petition to help ban them. I have about 300 signatures so far and want atleast 1,000 before i send it away. The more the better.

These puppy farms really upset me, being a student vet nurse we see these ill puppies and abondoned mothers all the time and it saddens me to see that mans best friend is now a money making machine. A mans best friend is now fearful of man.

I am doing alot of fundraising at the moment for Dogs Trust and then will be doing some fore the rescues that take in bitches from puppy farms that have been cruelly treated.

I am glad to be on the site 

Thanks Guys, let me know of any other puppy farm programmes on. 

 Lauren


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

:O have i missed something good??? anywhere else i can watch it??


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## staceydawlz (Jun 8, 2009)

i always miss the good programmes went onto bbc i player and at 8oclock it was eastenders??


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

The original post was last februaryu which might explain why it isn't on 

Peace
Akai-Chan


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