# Armley vets 30 animals removed



## jaycee05

30 cats and dogs removed from Armley vets in Leeds amid fears for their health,man and woman arrested, RSPCA are investigating, YORKSHIRE EVENING POST


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## bingolitle

Good grief! My heart goes out to the owners of those pets - they must be scared to death!

I hope there is nothing in this story though and it will turn out to be a storm in a teacup!


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## Ceiling Kitty

Whose animals are they, and why have they been placed in RSPCA care rather than returned to their owners?

Very weird story.


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## Knightofalbion

An updated piece about it on the Yorkshire Evening Post website .... No doubt more information will emerge in time.


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## jaycee05

I will have a look, there was no more information about it this morning,


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## jaycee05

I will have a look, there was no more information about it this morning, 
Cant see anymore than i read this morning, but the domestic incident apparently happened last year when one of the vets attacked a customer and was jailed for that offence and theft, 
Someone posted the link on facebook


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## lostbear

Shoshannah said:


> Whose animals are they, and *why have they been placed in RSPCA care rather than returned to their owners?*
> 
> Very weird story.


I wondered that.


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## Ang2

30 dogs and cats seized, two arrested as RSPCA launches investigation into Leeds vets - Yorkshire Evening Post

Leeds vet who attacked neighbour struck from the register - Yorkshire Evening Post


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## Ang2

Seems he had been struck off earlier, and shouldn't have been practicing?


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## Calvine

Shoshannah said:


> Whose animals are they, and why have they been placed in RSPCA care rather than returned to their owners?
> 
> Very weird story.


Maybe the vet is the owner.


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## Calvine

Ang2 said:


> Seems he had been struck off earlier, and shouldn't have been practicing?


Just found this Ang...there's not much about the case anywhere as far as I can see.

_Wednesday, 16 April 2014

RCVS v Samuel - College's sanction deemed unfair

Today, the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has quashed the decision of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons to remove Dr Gary Samuel from the register of veterinary surgeons.

Vet Juris has yet to critically analyse the Privy Council's judgment. But, in his conclusion Lord Toulson said that the Committee's (RCVS) finding that Dr Samuel was unfit to practise "cannot fairly stand". _


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

bingolitle said:


> Good grief! My heart goes out to the owners of those pets - they must be scared to death!
> 
> I hope there is nothing in this story though and it will turn out to be a storm in a teacup!


This matter is personal between myself and the rspca. I along with the veterinary practice helped to rescue animals that would otherwise be euthanised on the rspca's say so. I REFUSE to put to sleep animals that have a chance to live a happy & healthy life. No where in the article did it mention abuse contrary to the publics belief.. Neither did it mention the fact we are STILL doing work for the rspca & are caring for a cat at this very moment on their say so.
The rspca absolutely REFUSE to have any involvment with stray & injured animals to such a point that we incur the costs ourselves, we then re-habilitate the animals and re-home them to loving families where they live out their lives happy. If we are brought a stray animal with something as simple as a broken leg that can be fixed, the rspca's response when contacted is simply 'PUT IT TO SLEEP'.. When we refuse to put a healthy animal to sleep & make the decision to call the rspca & let them know we will treat it ourselves, their response is 'WHAT IS IT STILL DOING ALIVE?!?'
I wish people would get to know the facts before they go making slanderous comments about situations they know nothing about. Just because its in the paper doesnt make it true. (No one is released on bail) 
The rspca also forgot to mention the puppy they put to sleep after they had taken her because she looked alittle different from other dogs her breed. This dog was very much loved by everyone that met her. Disabilities shouldn't carry an automatic death sentence, especially when there is someone willing to take on the animal and the cost of treatment themselves.
Obviously this dog was not cost effective enough for the rspca 
No matter how many times the rspca try to slander my work in the papers & regardless of the content written about the work im doing. I will work relentlessly to save animals from needlessly being euthanised.


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## Little Zooey

I can only say that from my own experience, backed up with similar stories I've seen in here, I don't doubt your word one bit. I still haven't forgotten about Buzzer the cat who had the offer of a good home from a well respected member of PF. His only sin was to have CH and the RSPCA put him to sleep within hours, in spite of members trying desperately to save him.

There is a problem here - too many pets and too few good homes, but my gripe is that RSPCA funds are spent showing the public how a badly abused dog has been saved and found a new home. If they were honest about the thousands that are PTS behind the scenes, then maybe the public would think twice about breeding. It's all about money and nothing to do with compassion.

As someone with 30+ rescued pets of my own, I would urge you to keep up the good work!


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## jaycee05

I am very pleased we have seen the other side of this story, its true when we read something in the papers like that headline it shocks us
I am not too pleased at the moment with how the RSPCA take an animal that has been mistreated or has some problem
I have been looking after a cat who was for soime reason put in a rescue, not checked for a microchip apparently, and rehomed, the person who rehomed the cat,had to move out of the flat he was in for reasons beyond his control,so i took this cat intending to find him a nice home, as i had 6 of my own and he was frightened of anything and everything , he wouldnt go anywhere my cats were ,so had to keep them out of the way,so thought he might be better off in a one cat home, but he used to hide under covers or anything, and it took me 9 months to even get him to come and be petted, i decided as he was so nervous of people and everything really that i would keep him, but i saw his gums were very red,and a couple of really bad teeth, so took him to the vet, who said after checking for a chip that he had been reported missing about 3 years ago
The vet said he could have FIV so he might have to be put to sleep unless his original owners wanted hm back, i had to sign him over to the RSPCA to let them treat him,and contact the owners, 
I was very upset that they wont tell me what has happened to him, i think after having home for so long i know he wouldnt be easy to rehome, and i feel i have let hm down by signing him over,he was very affectionate with me, but it took a very long time, i think its unfair that i cant find out what has happened to him, and i wonder every day where he is, he was a lovely boy


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

bingolitle said:


> Good grief! My heart goes out to the owners of those pets - they must be scared to death!
> 
> I hope there is nothing in this story though and it will turn out to be a storm in a teacup!


Thankyou very much for your positive reply. It's very hard being a 27 year old female, giving my time, money and home to rescue animals in need, only to be slandered in the paper. My partner is a vet and he offers free treatment for these animals. We have spent thousands nursing animals back to health & we always re-home them for free or at most, ask them to make a contribution towards vaccinations. I actually had a clothes fund to raise donations.
The rspca wanted NOTHING to do with the animals until they saw one they wanted to put to sleep. I never realised how horrible this charity really is.

I do not believe I have the right to take life just because it is taught in classes and books. I believe if an animal has to be 'restrained' for euthanasia it is not ready to die, they are obviously fighting for their life & that's exactly what I stand for. LIFE 
People have an inflated view of themselves, believing they ultimately have a God given right to choose whether or not an animal gets to live. It perplexes me how they come Into contact with disabilities in people & feel a need to give them as normal a life as possible but feel no compulsion to treat disabilities in animals the same way.

I commend your charitable work & if you ever need cost effective treatment for your animals, don't hesitate to get in contact.


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## Ang2

Hey, LNE welcome to the forum! With regards the RSPCA, you are preaching to the converted! We are all, only too well acquainted with their policies. Im so glad you came here to defend yourself and give the truthful version of events.

Having ten animals, and not being too far from you, I would like to enrol as a customer! I also hope that you will stick around and use this forum to find forever homes


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## Lulus mum

I am so glad to read your post-as headlines can be very mis leading.

As Ang 2 posted-you are preaching to the converted and I am very proud to say that.

My own experiences ,both from when I worked in rescue and from my family experiences have left me feeling that the R S P C A are NOT what they portray themselves to be in the press and on the adverts on T V .
Help is given,when there is a film crew there ,but they turn a blind eye when there are cases of obvious animal cruelty.

The rescue I worked for was VERY small-all volunteers-no big boss with an even BIGGER salary yet we would constantly have calls from the R S P C A ,telling us e g of a litter of kittens they had found who were going to be P T S unless we could help! I have photos of them as I did the fundraising and took the photos to show people who our small rescue helped.

Again thank you for posting and I wish you all the luck in the world.
Thank you for taking a stand where most people would be too afraid of "the powers that be"
Maureen 

Please keep us updated


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## Little Zooey

I also hope you stick around. You may find the rehoming section especially useful


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## moonstone

THANK YOU for your reply and for saving/treating these poor animals
My friend has an animal rescue and she rescues many,many pets from rspca she made friends with the local inspectors and when she discovered that all the pets they collect as unwanted were taken straight back to the local rspca centre and pts she offered to take and rehome them which she has been doing now for several years (she even has horses from them)some of my cats came from this situation so would have been killed if she had not stepped in and saved them:
How such an organisation can claim to be an animal charity and yet ready to kill so many healthy animals and GET AWAY WITH MURDER I will never know but the more folk who know about their rather dubious actions the better
I hope you keep on saving lives WELL DONE and GOOD LUCK!


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Ang2 you can register with us anytime. Registration is free.

Thankyou all for your lovely replies. I will definitely use the opportunity being on here to help with re-homing, as I said previously.. I have a stray cat at the moment who I took in based on the fact he needed urgent surgery for an eye that was hanging out. A member of public who donates £4 a month & has the rspca in his WILL brought him in and was assured by the rspca that they would collect the cat from our surgery. After hearing nothing from them we decided to call them, we found it strange that they would offer to collect the cat as this has never happened before, their response is usually to PTS but thought maybe because of recent events they were more vigilant. To cut a long story short.. I called roughly 12 times over a two day period & the member of public called 4 times, each time assuring him someone would come for the cat, after being passed from centre to centre, vet lines etc.. Only to be told in quite a stern manner that they were not responsible for the cat and not to call again. I relayed the message to the member of public who was outraged. We have since given up on the rspca, incurred the cost of surgery ourselves and the member of public has stopped all donations and is in the process of having them removed from his will. 

The cat which I have temporarily named WILBUR after wilbur force way- the rspca's address is doing very well. He has adapted better than we could have hoped with one eye and will be up for re-homing as soon as he is fully recovered =) x


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## Ang2

Its a pity you cant demand an apology from the newspaper? Surely this is slander and may have damaged your reputation? Perhaps they should run the true story!

Yes, I was one of those silly people who, for years, had a direct debit to RSPCA. You may like to trawl through some old threads where (cant remember her name) but a spokesperson for RSPCA, was practically 'run' off the forum and couldn't answer questions and accusations from members here


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## Ang2

http://www.petforums.co.uk/introduc...a.html?highlight=rspca+communications+officer


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Yea I see, I also see the SHG there which I have been in contact with since this happened.lovely people  

Really cool pics of Bearded Dragons too. I love beardies x

With regards to the papers, I will speak out at some point as not only has it affected the business which was set up to help the underprivileged but has also damaged our personal reputations. I'm in the process of getting the go ahead from my lawyer


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## Calvine

Little Zooey said:


> I can only say that from my own experience, backed up with similar stories I've seen in here, I don't doubt your word one bit. I still haven't forgotten about Buzzer the cat who had the offer of a good home from a well respected member of PF. His only sin was to have CH and the RSPCA put him to sleep within hours, in spite of members trying desperately to save him.
> 
> There is a problem here - too many pets and too few good homes, but my gripe is that RSPCA funds are spent showing the public how a badly abused dog has been saved and found a new home. If they were honest about the thousands that are PTS behind the scenes, then maybe the public would think twice about breeding. It's all about money and nothing to do with compassion.
> 
> As someone with 30+ rescued pets of my own, I would urge you to keep up the good work!


Buzzer broke so many hearts  on this Forum...he was offered a loving and knowledgeable home but didn't live long enough to move into it. He could have had a home by Christmas but R$PCA said no.He had his own FB page...not sure if it's still available?


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## Calvine

Little Zooey said:


> I can only say that from my own experience, backed up with similar stories I've seen in here, I don't doubt your word one bit. I still haven't forgotten about Buzzer the cat who had the offer of a good home from a well respected member of PF. His only sin was to have CH and the RSPCA put him to sleep within hours, in spite of members trying desperately to save him.
> 
> There is a problem here - too many pets and too few good homes, but my gripe is that RSPCA funds are spent showing the public how a badly abused dog has been saved and found a new home. If they were honest about the thousands that are PTS behind the scenes, then maybe the public would think twice about breeding. It's all about money and nothing to do with compassion.
> 
> As someone with 30+ rescued pets of my own, I would urge you to keep up the good work!


R$PCA concentrate on the ''high profile'' cases...the ones that will get into the papers and so get the donations rolling in. They gave up on stray moggies in, I believe, 2010.


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## Calvine

Ang2 said:


> Its a pity you cant demand an apology from the newspaper? Surely this is slander and may have damaged your reputation? Perhaps they should run the true story!
> 
> Yes, I was one of those silly people who, for years, had a direct debit to RSPCA. You may like to trawl through some old threads where (cant remember her name) but a spokesperson for RSPCA, was practically 'run' off the forum and couldn't answer questions and accusations from members here


Her name was Gemma Smith, she was one of several ''digital communication officers'' paid by R$PCA to trawl sites like PF, I assume to get donations. But, as you say, she did a runner as there were many questions she could not reasonably answer.


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## Calvine

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Ang2 you can register with us anytime. Registration is free.
> 
> Thankyou all for your lovely replies. I will definitely use the opportunity being on here to help with re-homing, as I said previously.. I have a stray cat at the moment who I took in based on the fact he needed urgent surgery for an eye that was hanging out. A member of public who donates £4 a month & has the rspca in his WILL brought him in and was assured by the rspca that they would collect the cat from our surgery. After hearing nothing from them we decided to call them, we found it strange that they would offer to collect the cat as this has never happened before, their response is usually to PTS but thought maybe because of recent events they were more vigilant. To cut a long story short.. I called roughly 12 times over a two day period & the member of public called 4 times, each time assuring him someone would come for the cat, after being passed from centre to centre, vet lines etc.. Only to be told in quite a stern manner that they were not responsible for the cat and not to call again. I relayed the message to the member of public who was outraged. We have since given up on the rspca, incurred the cost of surgery ourselves and the member of public has stopped all donations and is in the process of having them removed from his will.
> 
> The cat which I have temporarily named WILBUR after wilbur force way- the rspca's address is doing very well. He has adapted better than we could have hoped with one eye and will be up for re-homing as soon as he is fully recovered =) x


I have heard that their ''home for life'' scheme is a con too...they get you to sign over your assets but if your cat is deemed by them to be ''unhomeable'' (ie old or possibly showing signs of stress as it has been put in a pen after 13 years in a family home?) then it is pts. And now they are going to close their hospitals to take on more so-called ''inspectors'' to concentrate on ''front-line work'', ie snatching cats from pensioners. God help us all. 
I wish you and your colleagues well, truly I do.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I've read so many horrible stories about the rspca since this happened. I never payed attention to how horrible this charity really is. 

I am now planning to steer my work more towards working in conjunction with rescues that take reward in saving animals from euthanasia & not public recognition. 
The rspca have tried to use this story to their full advantage with regards to publicity. They are simply not used to seeing so many animals in a vet practice, which is understandable but these animals needed a home & they were not willing to offer one. Rescues are full & I refuse to do nothing, I can't live with myself. 
The 'unnecessary suffering to protected animals' refers to the dog with disabilities I referred to in my earlier post. This puppy was PTS no longer than 2 days after being seized by the rspca. Not long enough to observe how happy she was to be alive. 
The 'fear for some of the animals welfare' is a very smart way for them to get publicity without having to tell the public the animals were rescues, so of course some of them were not in tip top condition & they were in a vet practice.. Isn't that where you take animals when u have welfare concerns ???

They have simply portrayed the story as if the animals were all pets and not being looked after 

No questions were asked before seizing the animals - we would have been happy to work along with them. We even went to the lengths of acquiring a larger premises to accommodate the animals for rescue


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## Ang2

And WHO, in gods name, sent them to your practice? You really need to seek legal advice. Its about time someone took them on! And who better than a Vet? I daren't even ask what happened to the other animals.


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## Lulus mum

It makes me so angry and so upset to think that there are SO many people who donate to the RSPCA on a regular basis and that many of them leave money in their wills.
To think that many join the "home for life" scheme,breaks my heart,as the reality is -their beloved pet may not have lived much longer after their owners death.

For a lot of people the R S P C A is their first port of call when they need help -for a variety of reasons .Their tear jerking appeals on T V would sway animal lovers to donate and who could blame them?

Your words"no questions were asked before seizing the animals"speak volumes

Well done for what you have stood up for-this was REALLY needed ,but took immense courage.
Maureen


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

This is another one


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

It's very heartbreaking to have the animals you worked so hard to make happy be snatched away without even having a choice to where they go. 

Knowing they are in the hands of the rspca is hard, especially after you hear they have euthanised some already. 
Completely doing the reverse of what you set out to achieve


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## Ang2

But, when they seize animals from someone, don't they have to have a hearing to have those animals awarded to them? This is just outrageous! Are you planning to fight to get those animals back? Have you started a Petition?


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## Blitz

Considering that truly abused animals are often unable to be taken away unless they are signed over by the owners and that after court cases they often have to be given back if they have been taken this all seems very odd. The RSPCA have no more right than Joe Bloggs to take an animal from someone.
Surely things would have to be very extreme for animals to be removed from a vets practice.


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## havoc

> Surely things would have to be very extreme for animals to be removed from a vets practice.


Unless you're well versed in the law it can be nigh on impossible to stand up to this organisation. Sadly I do believe it is their policy to go for easy targets or the 'big story', in many cases the press release is written and ready prior to taking any action. The average owner doesn't have a polished PR department and matching deep pockets.

It truly saddens me as I've known some wonderful RSPCA officers in the past who really did care about animal welfare. I don't think their work would be a good fit with the organisation it's become.


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## Calvine

Ang2 said:


> And WHO, in gods name, sent them to your practice? You really need to seek legal advice. Its about time someone took them on! And who better than a Vet? I daren't even ask what happened to the other animals.


You will need _specialist_ legal advice from someone like Nigel Weller or Sarah-Lise Howe. If they are in the wrong part of the country they will no doubt be able to recommend someone well-versed in dealing with R$PCA who are known to lie on their statements to get a conviction. Any old run-of-the-mill solicitor won't be much use, also, you should familiarize yourselves with the Animal Welfare Act (2006). Glad you have already discovered the SHG for Farmers and Pet Owners.
Sadly, your story does not surprise me one bit. You have to be prepared to stand up to them.


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## Calvine

Ang2 said:


> But, when they seize animals from someone, don't they have to have a hearing to have those animals awarded to them? This is just outrageous! Are you planning to fight to get those animals back? Have you started a Petition?


Actually, Ang, well done!!! A petition is a brilliant idea...like Mary a couple of weeks ago...there are many on here who would sign it. Certainly I would.


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## catz4m8z

Sounds like a horrible story, but not unexpected behaviour from the RSPCA. Its totally wrong that they get final say on what happens to these animals when their own view is so skewed in favour of PTS. Not that it should go all the OPs way either, for all we know the disabled puppy in question might be better off being PTS. There really needs to be a third impartial decision which can say wether an animal can live with a disability happily with enough support (Its not like a dog knows if it doesnt have enough legs or cant see! they only care that they are loved).
If this is on the level then I really hope you can get your animals back. Not that I would want them in the RSPCAs 'care' anyways! Im another one who did have a direct debit and faith in them but has heard and seen too many examples of their complete disregard for animals.


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## Burrowzig

havoc said:


> Unless you're well versed in the law it can be nigh on impossible to stand up to this organisation. Sadly I do believe it is their policy to go for easy targets or the 'big story', in many cases the press release is written and ready prior to taking any action. The average owner doesn't have a polished PR department and matching deep pockets.
> 
> It truly saddens me as I've known some wonderful RSPCA officers in the past who really did care about animal welfare. I don't think their work would be a good fit with the organisation it's become.


Unless accompanied by the police, you don't even have to let them in.


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## Calvine

Burrowzig said:


> Unless accompanied by the police, you don't even have to let them in.


True...but I'm fairly sure somewhere I read that the police were in attendance, ''seized'' these animals and transferred them to the so-called ''care'' of the R$PCA (meaning that several would be euthanized in record time). Even if there are no police present, R$PCA are not averse to trespassing to grab a cat. They will even transport a horse _without_ a passport when there is no emergency (against the law). But they will lie and say it _was_ an emergency so they get away with trespassing and transporting a horse without a passport.


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## Little Zooey

I'm sitting here and I don't know whether to be angry or simply break down in tears. Can't we get something organised in here with the OPs permission, of course. A petition is fine, but I've seen so many on FB that I'm wondering if they are losing their power.

Can I take it that there wouldn't have been 30 animals at the vet if homes had been found more quickly? I'm wondering how far it would be considered OK to rehome some of these pets. If more homes could be found in here then can't we get some kind of home check/transport system set up to help? There is a chain in America I believe where people sign up to drive a pet within a certain range of their home. That way they get animals from kill shelters right across the country if necessary.

I may not be too much help in the South East, but I have home checked for Cats Protection and other rescue centres. I drive too, but I can only have the car on my non-working day when I can arrange it with my husband.

What do you think about the idea LNE?


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## catcoonz

Happy to help as much as I can.

After Buzzer (rip), I detest rspca.

Once animals are seized, rspca do act very quickly to pts, I hope most of these animals can be saved.


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## rona

catcoonz said:


> Happy to help as much as I can.
> 
> After Buzzer (rip), I detest rspca.
> 
> Once animals are seized, rspca do act very quickly to pts, I hope most of these animals can be saved.


Easier to have a cover up if the animal is dead


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## Little Zooey

LNE - I believe you must have a minimum number of posts in here before you can start sending and receiving private messages. I'm sure someone can advise a bit more, but you may find we can help you better this way


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## moonstone

The one thing rspca HATES is bad publicity go to the papers (the Daily Mail often print true stories about the rspca)
Get as much publicity as you can
I have recently read the sad saga of Mr.Pig who was snatched from his owner who had kept this pig for 20 years which is very old for the KuneKune breed yet he was stolen by rspca and killed and they prosecuted his distraught owner for cruelty luckily the judge refused to ban him from keeping animals as they had requested and gave him a discharge although he had to pay their expenses (think I would rather have gone to prison than give them money) so they killed innocent Mr.Pig then made his loving owner pay their costs for his MURDER
We have a huge problem here with gypsy horses being abandoned yet they refuse to even come out to them when asked apparently it is too dangerous for their inspectors to go the camps to rescue horses yet they steal ones from caring owners
They really need to be stopped  A petition is a good idea then perhaps some protests at HQ Horshamlet them know that they cannot get away with breaking the law


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## Lulus mum

Coming back to this really breaks my heart so dont know how the O P is able to handle it.
The petition suggestion has to be done -dont think we would have a problem finding signatures.
Agree with Moonstones suggestion-a protest at the H Q in Horsham-it would give the R S P C A the bad publicity which will not do their caring image any good.

I too am sick and tired of the way they act-loving owners having their pets taken and sometimes P T S ,whilst in cases of real horrific animal abuse and cruelty they dont act - for a variety of reasons e g cowardice and the lack of a film crew.
When I worked in a small rescue I was upset so many times when people told me they had rung the R S P C A and they were GOBSMACKED when they were told-"we dont come out for strays" or "dont feed them" when they had found a mum and kittens.

I hope on P F we manage to come up with some way of trying to show the public what their caring R S P C A is really all about.
Maureen


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## rona

They got their wrist slapped here 
BBC News - RSPCA's seizure of 44 dogs at Lawford house unauthorised


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## moonstone

I have just read an interesting letter in the letters page of the Daily Mail that explains several myths about rspca 
Its worth reading if you can get a copy
There are several cases mentioned and the resulting outcomes which can give you an idea on what they can and cannot do


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## Calvine

rona said:


> They got their wrist slapped here
> BBC News - RSPCA's seizure of 44 dogs at Lawford house unauthorised


Interesting article, Rona, but we all know that as often as not they take animals with NO warrant and NO police presence. And they get away with it time and time again...


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## Calvine

_The RSPCA is by some distance the largest private prosecutor in England, bringing criminal charges against 30 new people every week. Most, of course, are entirely justified, involving often sickening mistreatment or neglect. But vets, lawyers and other professionals handling the defence of these cases say they are seeing more and more of the other kind  where caring owners, with the best of intentions and unblemished records, are dragged into the dock when simple advice or assistance would be more appropriate.

The RSPCA go in all guns blazing. To get them to call a halt is nigh-on impossible unless you do a deal, normally to sign over your animals  which is the last thing people want to do, says Anne Marie Gregory, a barrister who handles many RSPCA cases.

They may dress in police-like uniforms, conduct police-like interviews and give themselves police-like titles, but RSPCA inspectors are civilians, with neither the safeguards for suspects applied by the police nor any more power than any other private citizen to interrogate people, seize animals or enter private property. Few pet owners realise this until it is too late''_

The above comes from the Telegraph. But be aware that being a vet will not be a deterrent for them...in fact I think they think they have hit the jackpot if they take a vet to court. Remember the case of John Spicer, a retired vet aged 71, a slightly eccentric character. RSPCA dragged him out of bed, taking with them a gang of 13 (yes THIRTEEN) police, fire brigade and _two_ RSPCA vans and ''inspectors'' to remove two dogs (father and son I believe) who lived together and would have been happier and less stressed travelling in the same van. Mr Spicer was wearing only one shoe, according to photos in the papers, and was not allowed to pick up his reading glasses. Fire Brigade went up a ladder and shone a torch on the old guy as he slept.
It is also interesting to note that their Scottish counterparts, the SSPCA, do not carry out their own prosecutions, but all their cases must be referred to the Procurator Fiscal (Scottish equivalent of CPS).


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## rona

Calvine said:


> _ But be aware that being a vet will not be a deterrent for them...in fact I think they think they have hit the jackpot if they take a vet to court. Remember the case of John Spicer, a retired vet aged 71, a slightly eccentric character. RSPCA dragged him out of bed, taking with them a gang of 13 (yes THIRTEEN) police, fire brigade and two RSPCA vans and ''inspectors'' to remove two dogs (father and son I believe) who lived together and would have been happier and less stressed travelling in the same van. Mr Spicer was wearing only one shoe, according to photos in the papers, and was not allowed to pick up his reading glasses. Fire Brigade went up a ladder and shone a torch on the old guy as he slept.
> ._


_

But he was prosecuted and banned for 10 years 
Retired Shropshire vet banned from keeping animals after dogs found in squalor Â« Shropshire Star_


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

This is Wilbur the rescued cat I have with me at the moment.. The one who the rspca absolutely refused to have anything to do with despite his eye hanging out, a broken jaw & minor scrapes. 

They told me he was in a place of safety LOL.. Just a couple of days after printing in the papers how they feared for the seized animals welfare. ( I have the conversation recorded )


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

This was him after he was with me a few days - slight improvement


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

This is him after surgery. Doing fab :001_tongue:


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## Lulus mum

It just beggars belief!!!

How bl----- hypocritical.

Wilbur is one VERY lucky cat-thank you for taking such care of him,after the horrendous injuries he had.
Thank you for the "place of safety" that he was placed in-that really made me laugh!!!

What is his story?

Maureen


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## moonstone

He's gorgeous and very lucky too I have a Wilbur tooa neighbour found him and his sister in her garden,he was about a week old and I hand reared them both
They came from another neighbour who had lot of un neutered cats which she let breed/inbreed plus a poor old Tom cat who was only let indoors when they wanted more kittens to sell he was so thin you could see al his ribs plus he got hit by a car and suffered a broken pelvisI put a note through their door telling them to get vet treatment for him but they ignored me so I reported them hoping to get some help for this injured cat 3 months later I got a call from an inspector who told me that the owner was a "lovely" person who card for her pets and they would take no action against her (no surprise really) so I started to feed this cat as I felt so sorry for him..he looked so mcu better but when I moved I had to leave him:frown2:


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## Calvine

rona said:


> But he was prosecuted and banned for 10 years
> Retired Shropshire vet banned from keeping animals after dogs found in squalor Â« Shropshire Star


I know, Rona, but 13 people to remove one OAP and two dogs surely cannot be right. . Also, many people plead guilty as they cannot stand the hassle...in fact several people have committed suicide thanks to being persecuted by them. RSPCA have an income of over a million a year; I believe they are the second richest charity? They are happy to spend this on specialist solicitors who charge £300 an hour, while their victims are making do with Legal Aid.

It is interesting to note, tho', that their income is dwindling by millions as people begin to see thro' them. This is the power of the internet of course, you don't need to buy a paper to ''read all about it''. Unfortunately this means that they are closing the one area which does praiseworthy work: their animal hospitals.


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## StormyThai

Ok I am not and never will be the RSPCA's biggest fan (or even a fan at all)...and I will always point the finger at them if they are to blame!

I don['t like how everyone just jumps at the chance of slating them even without the facts..or choose to slate them regardless...

Yes they mess up, and yes they need to sort their organisation out so that they are there to help rather than just prosecute.
I mean so what if it took 13 people to remove an OAP...they obviously felt they needed it (not all 70 year olds are feeble weaklings).

He was found guilty in a court of law (after denying 4 charges)


> Puppy was discovered under bags of rubbish, with so little hair it was unrecognisable as a dog. It had three slipped discs, a ruptured cruciate ligament and a skin condition and had to be put down soon after being taken from the house.


If anyone thinks the RSPCA were in the wrong about that case then I suggest you open your eyes!!

Something about this case doesn't sit right with me...animals can not be seized without a warrant and we are not talking vulnerable people here - Sorry without proof of exactly what has gone on I'm not falling for the "We hate the RSPCA at all costs" brigade :nonod:


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## havoc

> animals can not be seized without a warrant


Animals *should* not be seized without a warrant. Homes should not be entered without either informed invitation or warrant. The problems sometimes lie in how they get those warrants, what they say to do so and the subsequent need to be right, to prove the stance they have taken in advance. Nobody is suggesting the RSPCA are always wrong or always heavy handed. They do however sometimes behave as badly as the worst of bully boy debt collectors.


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## StormyThai

havoc said:


> Animals *should* not be seized without a warrant. Homes should not be entered without either informed invitation or warrant. The problems sometimes lie in how they get those warrants, what they say to do so and the subsequent need to be right, to prove the stance they have taken in advance. Nobody is suggesting the RSPCA are always wrong or always heavy handed. They do however sometimes behave as badly as the worst of bully boy debt collectors.


Some posters here are suggesting that tho.

And yep I know they can use bullyboy tactics, but again we are not talking about a vulnerable person here, we are talking about a vet who I would have thought would have a little more sense.

Something just isn't sitting right with me.


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## jaycee05

StormyThai said:


> Ok I am not and never will be the RSPCA's biggest fan (or even a fan at all)...and I will always point the finger at them if they are to blame!
> 
> I don['t like how everyone just jumps at the chance of slating them even without the facts..or choose to slate them regardless...
> 
> Yes they mess up, and yes they need to sort their organisation out so that they are there to help rather than just prosecute.
> I mean so what if it took 13 people to remove an OAP...they obviously felt they needed it (not all 70 year olds are feeble weaklings).
> 
> He was found guilty in a court of law (after denying 4 charges)
> 
> If anyone thinks the RSPCA were in the wrong about that case then I suggest you open your eyes!!
> 
> Something about this case doesn't sit right with me...animals can not be seized without a warrant and we are not talking vulnerable people here - Sorry without proof of exactly what has gone on I'm not falling for the "We hate the RSPCA at all costs" brigade :nonod:


I have to agree here, this man was a vet,and to keep those poor animals in the condition they were in, he deserved all he got, 
There must have been a good reason for all those people to go and rescue those dogs, i am older than this man was and i am not a feeble pensioner ,and i know what i am doing, [up to now anyway] and i know that how he was keeping these animals was wrong
A lot of the things i read about the RSPCA i agree with,especially the people at the top being paid so much is wrong when its the animals who matter, but at the same time,they do some good work too, the trouble is i think there are not enough people like dog wardens etc to do everything, they need more helpers, and i dont think any rescues should have to be run by donations alone, even small ones should have some help from the Government if they are registered rescues,so i wont slate them for everything either, this Government couldnt care less about animals,whether ,wildlif ,farm animals,or domestic


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## Ang2

Well, having seen quite a few of the 'Animal Inspectors' series on TV, where a camera crew follow the dog wardens and RSPCA inspectors, I have seen for myself that in order to seize an animal, they call the police to attend, who assist in removing the animals there and then! No court order had been issued.

Whilst I would still like to believe that the RSPCA are active on 'some' animal cruelty cases - I have bad experiences of calling them and they have not been interested. One time for an injured dog, running along a busy A Road that I couldn't catch, and had clearly been already hit by a car. Another time, for the neighbour of a friend who kept their frail elderly dog outside in a shed, in below freezing temperatures in winter. That poor dog cried all night, and the RSPCA did nothing!


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## jaycee05

Yes i have heard about these things too, i do wonder sometimes if its connected with the area, or bigger cities maybe,but i have to say our branch have always been fine in most things as far as i know, i had 2 strays in my garden, a few years ago, all highly fenced off now,rang RSPCA and they came fairly quickly
Also an RSPCA inspector was looking around where i live late last year for an injured seagull, which had been reported, then was going to find an injured pigeon that i reported, i saw it hit a high sided vehicle and fly into a hedge


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## chillminx

I used to assume (in my ignorance) that when RSPCA 'rescues' injured dogs or cats off the roads, they take them immediately to a vet for a professional opinion as to whether the animal can be saved with surgery/treatment and have pain free quality of life as a result. 

I felt that having a vet, with their strict ethics and years of medical training, make life or death decisions about animals provided a safety net for the RSPCA, so their Inspectors did not/could not make such decisions themselves. 

Then a couple of years ago I learnt that all RSPCA Inspectors carry with them drugs that are used to euthanise animals. Ostensibly this is so that if they come across an badly injured wild animal on the roads they'll have the tools with them to relieve the poor thing of its agony immediately. 

But I also learnt that in some areas of the country, e.g. some inner cities where there are a high number of feral cats and strays, the Inspectors have decided to act like God. A cat found injured on the roads, e.g. perhaps with a fractured leg, (and no microchip) is swiftly dispatched on the spot by the Inspector with no chance for the animal's viability to be assessed by someone with proper medical training, i.e. a vet or an experienced vet nurse. 

Perhaps I am being naive, but learning this gave me a very uneasy feeling. It is as though the checks and balances our civilised society has put in place to protect cats and dogs from euthanasia without veterinary approval are being seriously undermined.


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## StormyThai

chillminx said:


> I used to assume (in my ignorance) that when RSPCA 'rescues' injured dogs or cats off the roads, they take them immediately to a vet for a professional opinion as to whether the animal can be saved with surgery/treatment and have pain free quality of life as a result.
> 
> I felt that having a vet, with their strict ethics and years of medical training, make life or death decisions about animals provided a safety net for the RSPCA, so their Inspectors did not/could not make such decisions themselves.
> 
> Then a couple of years ago I learnt that all RSPCA Inspectors carry with them drugs that are used to euthanise animals. Ostensibly this is so that if they come across an badly injured wild animal on the roads they'll have the tools with them to relieve the poor thing of its agony immediately.
> 
> But I also learnt that in some areas of the country, e.g. some inner cities where there are a high number of feral cats and strays, the Inspectors have decided to act like God. A cat found injured on the roads, e.g. perhaps with a fractured leg, (and no microchip) is swiftly dispatched on the spot by the Inspector with no chance for the animal's viability to be assessed by someone with proper medical training, i.e. a vet or an experienced vet nurse.
> 
> Perhaps I am being naive, but learning this gave me a very uneasy feeling. It is as though the checks and balances our civilised society has put in place to protect cats and dogs from euthanasia without veterinary approval are being seriously undermined.


Some inspectors carry bolt guns too


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## havoc

> Well, having seen quite a few of the 'Animal Inspectors' series on TV, where a camera crew follow the dog wardens and RSPCA inspectors, I have seen for myself that in order to seize an animal, they call the police to attend, who assist in removing the animals there and then! No court order had been issued.


Two separates issues here.
1. Most people don't know they don't have to let them in.
2. When it's a TV programme there's no way what you're seeing is real, the true initial contact. It's all set up for filming. If you see the owner within their own property then they've agreed to be filmed and I have no sympathy whatsoever with an owner who wants to be on TV that much. Whatever they're told, whatever they think they're agreeing to, more than anything (including any love for their animal) they want to be filmed.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I agree there are genuine people working for and with the rspca, I mean someone has to clean the **** and feed the animals, it takes a certain kind of person to get satisfaction from cleaning **** for a living & that ain't the inspectors. It seems to me that once a high ranking sounding label has been acquired, it inflates their egos. 
It would appear to me that they carry a check list in their head, a list they have obtained from a book & not actual life experience because anyone who is experienced with keeping animals in large numbers knows, no one case is the same. Animals are individual just like people & every situation & routine is different but with similarities. Breed traits, origins and general behaviour also play a part.. You can't walk around with the check list that every dog must have a particular bed (for instance) because some breeds will respect the bedding, others will chew it to bits eg.Siberian Husky. No bedding seen for a dog by the rspca can cause them to investigate & even seize dogs without knowing the background.
I must say, when I read the story of the Vet.. I did discuss it with my partner & say that the man was actually mistreating his dogs, especially because we have medical knowledge, I certainly couldn't understand why he wouldn't treat easily rectifiable conditions that were left to progress to a worse state. My partner agreed but did say the man doesn't seem stable. I must state though that this case is nothing like mine, none of the dogs I had were suffering from anything other than a few of them being underweight which was due to a food change over & a change in circumstances which is to be expected of some dogs when going into a new environment. Absolutely none of the animals in my care had any skin complaints nor anything else. I take great pride in the way animals in my care look. Some of my dogs are shown & I have Huskies so we also attend rallies.. All of my friends have snow dogs, so either show or work them. I know one of the top Canadian Eskimo breeders in the country, in fact she was just on the televised Crufts for this year with a dog she brought over from Canada as she is trying to preserve the breed by introducing new lines from overseas.

The private Vet report I had done for the animals whilst in the rspca' care came back good & the rspca were trying to re-home my dogs a week after they were seized. If they were in such poor condition to be taken without discussion In the 1st place, how come they can be re- homed so soon?


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

This is a great example of how I keep Wilbur the cat - before HE CHOOSES to do what he likes with his own place. Who am I to dictate how he likes to decorate. When I see it in a mess I clean it but if he wants to mess it up, that's his right. It's not like I can sit down with him and have a conversation about how I don't like what he does to his place. 
Having said that, this is a great example of how the rspca would perceive the situation as me not providing a suitable environment, having the cat live in squaller & would then seize the cat and try their best to bring a law suit on me.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Wilbur decorating. This happened the same day, no more than a couple of hours after I left him clean & tidy. But what if the rspca would have come before I saw what he'd done ?? 
Should I sit in front of him every minute of the day, is he at great risk & do I not have his well being at the very forefront of my heart because his place became dirty before I cleaned him???

This is the very thin line the rspca stomp all over with their unrealistic ideas of animal welfare.


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## Ang2

Oh bless him!


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

They also have a total disregard for how the animal became in your care in the 1st place. The care you've provided prior to them coming. The costs of treatment you've provided. And more importantly the heartbreak you have to live with feeling you have let down the animals in your care by letting the rspca get their hands on them. Each animal has his or her own traits, each one is unique, they all have a demand from you that is unique to them alone. 
When the rspca have them, they do not care.. They treat them how they were taught in books, each one the same. They see them as numbers.

Since they seized (stole) the animals in my care, they haven't once asked their names. They have gotten the breeds wrong & when I corrected them, they replied 'well whatever'  

I'm perplexed as to why, if they had issues with the conditions of the animals.. Why couldn't they just discuss it - we would have worked along with them. But no questions asked ? I wasn't even around when the rspca removed the animals as I was taken away before the rspca even turned up! I just returned after 24 hours to an empty place ;( .. I felt as though I had been kidnapped and robbed of everything I cherish. This is my 1st & only experience of the rspca and the police.. It isn't one I wish to experience again


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## Ang2

Have you had legal advice? What are your prospects?


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## StormyThai

So what was on the warrant when they seized the animals?
Why did you hand them over if there was nothing wrong?


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## chillminx

I too am puzzled as to why you let the RSPCA take your animals away I wouldn't let them take my pets if they suddenly knocked on my door accusing me of all sorts, without any evidence.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

If they attempt any kind of surgical procedure on her i believe she might even die. Shes a very nervy cat.. The worst ive seen but once you understand her and her needs shes easy, she needs patience and space and most importantly company of other cats. I believe she mimics their behaviour but i believe the rspca have seperated all the animals. I dont know her true past but i believe she was either in complete solitude at one time or another or maybe even abused.
Poor Delores  she must be sooooooo scared


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> This is Opal the puppy who was put to sleep. Eventually I will set up the Opal Foundation in memory of her. The donations will go towards helping dogs with disabilities live as normal a life as possible. In respect of what happened to her, something must be done.
> This is the one that gets me the most, what happened to her.. Saddens me to the core.
> I don't know how the inspector responsible for her death sleeps at night, even I find it hard & I did everything I could to have her alive ( which wasn't much because the puppy lived like normal ) the rspca fought to have her killed. Who does that ?!?
> What exactly has happened to society where by we've reached a point that people are fighting for death instead of life! :-/


Why was a poorly puppy being kept in a horrible enclosure like that? poor little mite, she looks so pitiful

A vet would have made the decision to put her to sleep not the RSPCA inspector.

,


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## StormyThai

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I didn't hand them over & never recieved a warrant until everything was already done. With regards to what was on the warrant, I don't believe my lawyer would permit me to say just yet. I don't know the law & it isn't in the public domain as yet, I also don't know who you are & I'm very wary of people since this fiasco.
> 
> Why are you even discussing it in a public forum then?
> I don't know you so why am I to believe you over what has been reported?
> So no warrant, but you let them walk off with the animals when there was apparently nothing wrong
> 
> I'm also having the warrant looked into as there is a possibility it isn't legit.
> 
> I also knew NOTHING about the rights I did or didn't have regarding the rspca. I've spoken with them only 20 minutes since having involvement with them & I still can't get past the fact they obtained a warrant to seize animals on the basis they feared for their welfare but yet.. Left me with ANOTHER animal just days later. One that did have serious welfare issues considering his eye was pushing out of its socket !!
> 
> Hang on...you do work for the charity, yet you don't know your rights?
> Again why did you allow them to walk off with these animals if nothing was wrong?
> 
> I don't think I've mentioned yet.. The animals the rspca took from me were all pedigree.. They were very beautiful & I don't think they were expecting that in large numbers. The cat they've left me with is not a breed as can be seen in the pics
> I have no idea whether or not this is relevant
> 
> No relevance at all IMO
> 
> As you can see from the picture, they are beautiful. Some of the animals I even payed the people for so they wouldn't be PTS because although they're beautiful, some had major problems with socialisation relating to where they came from Previously. One female In parrticular was VERY bad, I even put her in a foster home at 1 point to see if it would bring her round but she only got worse so I brought her back with me.. The only thing that brought this cat out of herself enough to function was company of other cats and 1 constant person. When I got her with me & my cats she was like a different cat. God knows what she's going through right now with the rspca. Im positive they will euthanise this cat if I can't get her back


I just don't get it at all, none of it makes sense I am afraid.



LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> This is Opal the puppy who was put to sleep. Eventually I will set up the Opal Foundation in memory of her. The donations will go towards helping dogs with disabilities live as normal a life as possible. In respect of what happened to her, something must be done.
> This is the one that gets me the most, what happened to her.. Saddens me to the core.
> I don't know how the inspector responsible for her death sleeps at night, even I find it hard & I did everything I could to have her alive ( which wasn't much because the puppy lived like normal ) the rspca fought to have her killed. Who does that ?!?
> What exactly has happened to society where by we've reached a point that people are fighting for death instead of life! :-/


How is an inspector responsible for her death? How did the fight to have her killed? What was wrong with her?


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

She wasn't poorly, she had a birth defect & she wasn't kept in an enclosure, that was just a time when I took her to interact with other puppies but they picked on her  that's why she has that expression. Opal lived in my house with my two little dogs who welcomed her & also the cats had no fear of her. 
She had a very sweet personality where she just wanted to be accepted as part of any group that would accept her. I believe it's because she had to be taken from the litter earlier than the others due to being bullied. 

I'm glad u can see how nervous she looks though because that's exactly how she must have been when she was with strangers


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> She wasn't poorly, she had a birth defect & she wasn't kept in an enclosure, that was just a time when I took her to interact with other puppies but they picked on her  that's why she has that expression. Opal lived in my house with my two little dogs who welcomed her & also the cats had no fear of her.
> She had a very sweet personality where she just wanted to be accepted as part of any group that would accept her. I believe it's because she had to be taken from the litter earlier than the others due to being bullied.
> 
> I'm glad u can see how nervous she looks though because that's exactly how she must have been when she was with strangers


Its obvious from the picture she was a sickly puppy. Can I ask what kind of birth defect she had? And what age was she taken away from her mother? Were they your puppies you let her to interact with? Sorry for all the questions.

.

.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Just like you have only seen pictures of Wilbur in a cage but he has since moved to my home where he sleeps on my bed at night. 
Wilbur is cool, me & him are buddies


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## Guest

Where were all these animals kept?
You say some lived in your house, where were the others?


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## catcoonz

Can you not post previous photograph's of the animals who were happy in your home, the impression I am getting is leaning towards rspca.

The photo of the puppy in dirty conditions is just too upsetting, so thin as well.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Let me just say that I'm well aware you don't have puppies leave the litter younger than 8 weeks old. In circumstances where there is a problem or a crisis I would try my best to have the puppy be with the mother as long as possible but if it posed too much of a risk to either puppy or mother you would have to separate with intervals of interaction if possible. 
I do not breed but have had dogs & cats come to me pregnant and I would always try to leave mum & puppies together for as long as I see they still want to be. I don't believe in the separation of puppies from mum because YOU have decided it's time to wean. As long as there are no health concerns.. You can observe mum & her behaviours, she knows best and will always exhibit behaviours to let everyone know when she's had enough. 

Mothers in animals are very smart if you take the time to observe you can clearly see the stages they go through. At the end of the day, their origins are wild & when a dog is understood to be a dog & not a person they always get it right.


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## chillminx

As you are aware you were not obliged to let the RSPCA and/or the police onto your premises without a warrant.

For a magistrate to grant the RSPCA a warrant to enter and search your premises there would need to have been reason to believe the animals in question were at risk, and the RSPCA would have needed to convince the court there was adequate suspicion of neglect or abuse.

Basic legal advice for pet owners

However, I am wondering if the time-line of how things unfolded went something like this? : The police had a warrant to arrest someone on the premises for an alleged assault, a matter unconnected to the welfare of the animals.

As a result the police had the right to enter the premises. Once inside and having made their arrest, they then searched the premises, may have had concerns about so many apparently sick animals being there and called the RSPCA. The RSPCA would have had no right to take the animals, but the police would have had the right.

That scenario certainly makes more sense. Am I wrong?


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Let me just say that I'm well aware you don't have puppies leave the litter younger than 8 weeks old. In circumstances where there is a problem or a crisis I would try my best to have the puppy be with the mother as long as possible but if it posed too much of a risk to either puppy or mother you would have to separate with intervals of interaction if possible.
> I do not breed but have had dogs & cats come to me pregnant and I would always try to leave mum & puppies together for as long as I see they still want to be. I don't believe in the separation of puppies from mum because YOU have decided it's time to wean. As long as there are no health concerns.. You can observe mum & her behaviours, she knows best and will always exhibit behaviours to let everyone know when she's had enough.
> 
> Mothers in animals are very smart if you take the time to observe you can clearly see the stages they go through. At the end of the day, their origins are wild & when a dog is understood to be a dog & not a person they always get it right.


So you had this pups mother & she was born at your home? I presume the puppies you introduced her to were also born at your home then? Was the puppy ever seen by a vet?

,


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

That was a large enclosure for malamutes. She wasn't dirty.. That's just how the place looks because it's stone, she wasn't thin.. She had a problem, so she didn't grow the same as other puppies & your leaning towards the rspca putting her to sleep because of a picture? 
I'm starting to get suspicious that you are the rspca


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

She was seen by 2 vets


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## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> That was a large enclosure for malamutes. She wasn't dirty.. That's just how the place looks because it's stone, she wasn't thin.. She had a problem, so she didn't grow the same as other puppies & your leaning towards the rspca putting her to sleep because of a picture?
> I'm starting to get suspicious that you are the rspca


Obviously I cant tell the whole story from one picture, but that pup does look thin and she has what looks like pressure sores or urine scald on her feet.

What condition did she have?

And where was this large enclosure? Where were the dogs kept?


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

She was a puppy, she ran around and got dirty feet. She most certainly did not have any sores at any time. The shame of people who have dogs walking around with elbow sores that never go away. 
The dogs had a large enclosed area outside.


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> That was a large enclosure for malamutes. She wasn't dirty.. That's just how the place looks because it's stone, she wasn't thin.. She had a problem, so she didn't grow the same as other puppies & your leaning towards the rspca putting her to sleep because of a picture?
> I'm starting to get suspicious that you are the rspca


How many malamutes do you keep in there? do you keep dogs & bitches together?



LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> She was seen by 2 vets


What did they say was wrong with her?


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> If people only want to see the animals looking pleasing to their ideas of how they want to see them. I have hundred as all my devices have full storage due to the non stop pictures I took almost all of animals. But realistically we all know life isn't a story book of pleasing pictures.. It's not like people take pictures of these moments and post them


What did the two vets say was wrong with the puppy?

,


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

The puppy wasn't thin, but she looked different. I wanted to post a picture where people could see her from an angle that shows her differences


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> The puppy wasn't thin, but she looked different. I wanted to post a picture where people could see her from an angle that shows her differences


What birth defect did she have that made her look so poorly?

,


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## JANICE199

*Something about this thread isn't quite right to me.*


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## Guest

JANICE199 said:


> *Something about this thread isn't quite right to me.*


There are definitely a lot of unanswered questions....


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## JANICE199

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> This matter is personal between myself and the rspca. I along with the veterinary practice helped to rescue animals that would otherwise be euthanised on the rspca's say so. I REFUSE to put to sleep animals that have a chance to live a happy & healthy life. No where in the article did it mention abuse contrary to the publics belief.. Neither did it mention the fact we are STILL doing work for the rspca & are caring for a cat at this very moment on their say so.
> The rspca absolutely REFUSE to have any involvment with stray & injured animals to such a point that we incur the costs ourselves, we then re-habilitate the animals and re-home them to loving families where they live out their lives happy. If we are brought a stray animal with something as simple as a broken leg that can be fixed, the rspca's response when contacted is simply 'PUT IT TO SLEEP'.. When we refuse to put a healthy animal to sleep & make the decision to call the rspca & let them know we will treat it ourselves, their response is 'WHAT IS IT STILL DOING ALIVE?!?'
> I wish people would get to know the facts before they go making slanderous comments about situations they know nothing about. *Just because its in the paper doesnt make it true. *(No one is released on bail)
> The rspca also forgot to mention the puppy they put to sleep after they had taken her because she looked alittle different from other dogs her breed. This dog was very much loved by everyone that met her. Disabilities shouldn't carry an automatic death sentence, especially when there is someone willing to take on the animal and the cost of treatment themselves.
> Obviously this dog was not cost effective enough for the rspca
> No matter how many times the rspca try to slander my work in the papers & regardless of the content written about the work im doing. I will work relentlessly to save animals from needlessly being euthanised.


*As you say, not everything in the papers is true. But neither is everything we read on the net.*


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## Linden_Tree

Well I for one think someone on this thread is lying through their teeth.

There is rarely no smoke without fire.


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## noushka05

All I'm going to say is - thank god we have an rspca...


.


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## Guest

Im not familiar with the RSPCA hoopla. No clue there.

I am familiar with situations where for varying reasons, people end up with more animals than they can properly care for. 

I am familiar with urine scald. Doesnt help that one of those photos showed the pen next door has several piles of poop sitting in it too. I see a dirty pen, a pen full of poop, a puppy with manky feet, I think urine scald. I could be dead wrong, but when you hear hooves think horses not zebras and all that....

If that puppy has seen two vets, one must have given some sort of working diagnosis, Im not sure why its so hard to answer what that was?

Lots of non answers and diversion tactics. Sorry to be such a cynic, but something here just isnt quite right.


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## StormyThai

Considering any valid questions I have asked has been left unanswered sorry but I have to say maybe the RSPCA did act accordingly.

Unless someone can show me rock solid proof that what they did was illegal (taking any animals without a warrant is theft) then I am afraid I will take the side of the RSPCA.



And that is coming from someone that has no time of day for the charity and I will always point the finger if it is warranted!



Sorry love, but I don't fall into the "We must hate the RSPCA at all costs" yeah they mess up at times (quite a lot if I am honest) but they also do some good IMO


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## JANICE199

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I think I've been quite open about the situation.. If I had anything to hide I wouldn't have posted on here.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'm not out to convince people of anything I'm just about saving the animals.
> 
> Let's wait & see what happens - what case / if any, is brought upon me & if there is anyone who thinks they can offer Wilbur the right home id be happy to hear from you x


*To be fair, you have been asked very reasonable questions. You have chosen not to answer these questions, why is this?
Also i would like to point out, anyone of us could come on here and claim to be someone we are not.
I would be more worried if people didn't question things.*


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## Calvine

I think members should calm down unless they want to get the thread closed.


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## JANICE199

Calvine said:


> I think members should calm down unless they want to get the thread closed.


* Who isn't calm? Nothing wrong in asking questions.*


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## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I think I've been quite open about the situation.. If I had anything to hide I wouldn't have posted on here.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'm not out to convince people of anything I'm just about saving the animals.
> 
> The reason for not giving direct answers to your questions is because I have been made aware of medical information the rspca have reported COMPLETELY WRONG. Outrageously wrong coming from a vet especially. But until a case is called I cannot disclose this.
> Let's wait & see what happens - what case / if any, is brought upon me & if there is anyone who thinks they can offer Wilbur the right home id be happy to hear from you x


I sorry but Im still not understanding.

How is it that you can post pictures of a puppy and the living conditions of the puppy, divulge that the puppy has a medical problem, but the one thing you cant do is say what the medical condition is? That doesnt make sense?


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## Calvine

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I think I've been quite open about the situation.. If I had anything to hide I wouldn't have posted on here.
> 
> At the end of the day, I'm not out to convince people of anything I'm just about saving the animals.
> 
> The reason for not giving direct answers to your questions is because I have been made aware of medical information the rspca have reported COMPLETELY WRONG. Outrageously wrong coming from a vet especially. But until a case is called I cannot disclose this.
> Let's wait & see what happens - what case / if any, is brought upon me & if there is anyone who thinks they can offer Wilbur the right home id be happy to hear from you x


If there is a likelihood of this coming to court, then indeed you may well be advised by a lawyer to be VERY careful what you say on an open forum. You may be given legal advice to say nowt at all, in which case you now have enough posts to contact and be contacted by private message.


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## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> * Who isn't calm? Nothing wrong in asking questions.*


If it turns into a slanging match it will help no-one as you are well aware.


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## Guest

Have there been any news updates on this story? All I can find is the original March 7th report.

I cant tell why the two people were arrested. Was it for the alleged domestic dispute or was if for animal welfare violations?


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## Guest

Calvine said:


> If it turns into a slanging match it will help no-one as you are well aware.


Nobody is slanging anyone. I for one am asking questions and trying to clarify information. Whats wrong with that?


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

He's soooooo friendly & loves the bed


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## Calvine

ouesi said:


> Nobody is slanging anyone. I for one am asking questions and trying to clarify information. Whats wrong with that?


Nothing, but we all know it takes very little to get a thread closed by a moderator, and I think that would be a pity; don't you? Nothing worse in my opinion than when you are trying to follow a thread and you find it locked.


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## catcoonz

Would you mind confirming the vets initials for me please, then I will go away and leave you all to continue.

Just a yes or no answer will do for me .... are the initials GJCS


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## Rafa

I'm no huge fan of the RSPCA, but I believe they are necessary.

A few weeks ago, I was walking along the canal tow path with Rosie and my Son, Gary. We were feeding the ducks when we noticed one female was trying to eat, but couldn't. Gary spotted that she had fishing line round her neck and through her beak, so couldn't extend her neck.

We went back to her later with two large fishing nets, but were unable to catch her, so, the day after, I rung the RSPCA and explained the situation.

They took very precise details of where the duck was and said they would let me know. Later on that day, I had a call to say they had attended, with a boat and had managed to catch and free her from the line.

I too am a little baffled as to why the RSPCA seem to have seized so many animals from the OP and why she hasn't given an explanation as to why they were seized.


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## JANICE199

Calvine said:


> If it turns into a slanging match it will help no-one as you are well aware.


*Seems to me you are the only one getting out of your pram.*


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Hmm my intentions were never to cause arguments or hatred towards the rspca. I simply wanted to tell my story, get people's opinions, advice & hear their own experiences of this charity. 
I would hope that this forum could be used to help people understand that euthanasia is a last resort. You cant be permitted to put animals to sleep based on them having no where to go or health concerns that can be rectified given some effort. 
There is always somewhere an animal can go, it might have to be a little cramped or not ideal but surely it's better than death for the time they are there until they get re-homed. 
My main concern is people have taken on the 'right' to euthanise animals based on what?? There are times when there is no hope left, when you have exhausted every avenue and there is nothing else you can do. Then & only then do I feel death is permitted by human intervention. 

( of course this is only my beliefs )


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## catcoonz

I certainly do not agree with rspca putting down healthy animals, each one of them deserves and can be found a home.

I just don't understand how rspca can seize so many animals from a veterinary practise.


----------



## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Hmm my intentions were never to cause arguments or hatred towards the rspca. I simply wanted to tell my story, get people's opinions, advice & hear their own experiences of this charity.
> I would hope that this forum could be used to help people understand that euthanasia is a last resort. You cant be permitted to put animals to sleep based on them having no where to go or health concerns that can be rectified given some effort.
> There is always somewhere an animal can go, it might have to be a little cramped or not ideal but surely it's better than death for the time they are there until they get re-homed.
> My main concern is people have taken on the 'right' to euthanise animals based on what?? There are times when there is no hope left, when you have exhausted every avenue and there is nothing else you can do. Then & only then do I feel death is permitted by human intervention.
> 
> ( of course this is only my beliefs )


I'm afraid I don't just share your beliefs.

For some dogs, in certain situations, a peaceful end can be preferable to what they face in this World.

I take it you're not opposed to euthinasia in old dogs?


----------



## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Hmm my intentions were never to cause arguments or hatred towards the rspca. I simply wanted to tell my story, get people's opinions, advice & hear their own experiences of this charity.
> I would hope that this forum could be used to help people understand that euthanasia is a last resort. You cant be permitted to put animals to sleep based on them having no where to go or health concerns that can be rectified given some effort.
> There is always somewhere an animal can go, it might have to be a little cramped or not ideal but surely it's better than death for the time they are there until they get re-homed.
> My main concern is people have taken on the 'right' to euthanise animals based on what?? There are times when there is no hope left, when you have exhausted every avenue and there is nothing else you can do. Then & only then do I feel death is permitted by human intervention.
> 
> ( of course this is only my beliefs )


Im not sure what any of this has to do with the poorly puppy you posted pictures of?

And no, I dont necessarily agree with your post. Just my own opinion  
I do think there are far worse things that can happen to an unwanted dog than a humane death. One of them being languishing indefinitely in a concrete cell for however long it takes to find them an appropriate home. Or ending up in an inappropriate home where their needs are not properly met. 
No... there are far worse fates out there than a quick, humane death.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I'm opposed to euthanasia at any age, at all costs. Coming from a medical background I know how an animal is euthanised & what is used. 

I just don't feel I have a right to say I'm putting the animal out of its misery, or giving it a kinder end because how can I know??
I can't see the animal after death, I can't ask how they're doing now. Putting an end to it's suffering ? I'm just putting an end - full stop. 

Even when it becomes absolutely necessary for an animal to be PTS I still never feel right about it. I only feel sadness for how the situation came to be that way in the 1st place. People have become so accustomed to death as the 'norm' I don't know how they have let this happen. Each one is a life, you can't get it back.. Once it's gone, it's gone! If you can't give it - I don't believe you can take it.


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## StormyThai

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I'm opposed to euthanasia at any age, at all costs. Coming from a medical background *I know how an animal is euthanised & what is used. *
> 
> So do many of us here.
> 
> I just don't feel I have a right to say I'm putting the animal out of its misery, or giving it a kinder end because how can I know??
> I can't see the animal after death, I can't ask how they're doing now. Putting an end to it's suffering ? *I'm just putting an end - full stop. *


By putting an end you are automatically ending the suffering. Biologically they can not feel pain ergo the suffering is stopped.
Personally I am grateful that we can make the decision for our pets if necessary!

It should be about quality of life not quantity!


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## Cleo38

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I*'m opposed to euthanasia at any age, at all costs*. Coming from a medical background I know how an animal is euthanised & what is used.
> 
> I just don't feel I have a right to say I'm putting the animal out of its misery, or giving it a kinder end because how can I know??
> I can't see the animal after death, I can't ask how they're doing now. Putting an end to it's suffering ? I'm just putting an end - full stop.
> 
> Even when it becomes absolutely necessary for an animal to be PTS I still never feel right about it. I only feel sadness for how the situation came to be that way in the 1st place. People have become so accustomed to death as the 'norm' I don't know how they have let this happen. Each one is a life, you can't get it back.. Once it's gone, it's gone! If you can't give it - I don't believe you can take it.


Why keep an animal alive if it is in pain? Why keep it alive if it can no longer move around & display natural behaviours? Why keep an animal alive if it is to be kept in unsuitable conditions? Why is it so important to keep an animal alive at all costs?

Would you feel you had a 'right' to determine if an animal needed medication or an operation? Would you feel you had a right to decide whether it was vaccinated or what it was fed or where it lived?

Not sure what the difference is tbh. We make decisions for our animals every single day so should also be doing the same when they are suffering


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I don't expect to change the world with my views.. After all it's a multi million dollar industry. 
I am also aware that people have given themselves 'rights'.. People nowadays look for ways to feel good about themselves. When the puppy was PTS the people walked away feeling good about the decision they made. It made them feel good inside. 
I don't save animals to feel good . I do it not to feel bad.

There's nothing special about saving animals, it's concerning to me how people don't feel they have to


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## bingolitle

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> People have become so accustomed to *death as the 'norm' *I don't know how they have let this happen. Each one is a life, you can't get it back


Death IS the norm. Every last one of us has to die. It is the manner of that death that makes the difference.

However, as has already been said, if this is a case that is likely to go to court, there are details that should not be gone into. We don't want trial by PF any more than we want trial by Facebook or the Media.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

If you feel you have the right to end the suffering of animals.. How come not people as well? 
Plenty of times I've walked down the street & seen a child strapped to a chair, unable to move any part of their body, dribbling. Should I contact cps and make a report that the child is suffering? .. Tell them it should be euthanised :-/

What has happened to people that they believe a human life is worth more


----------



## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I don't expect to change the world with my views.. After all it's a multi million dollar industry.
> I am also aware that people have given themselves 'rights'.. People nowadays look for ways to feel good about themselves. When the puppy was PTS the people walked away feeling good about the decision they made. It made them feel good inside.
> I don't save animals to feel good . I do it not to feel bad.
> 
> There's nothing special about saving animals, it's concerning to me how people don't feel they have to


People save animals for all sorts of reasons. 
Hopefully the main reason is for the sake of the animal and giving that animal a better life.

Keeping an animal alive just for the sake of saying you have saved that animal is not in the best interest of that animal. Its human ego, and ego has no place in rescue work.


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## chillminx

What I surmised is correct, according to the Yorkshire Evening Post.

On February 24th the police were called to the Armley veterinary practice to investigate report of a "domestic incident". (This was unconnected with the animals on the premises.) Two people were subsequently arrested at the premises, a woman, and a man (Gary Samuel, a vet).

Whilst the police were on the property they observed problems with a number of animals on the premises and became concerned for their welfare. The police therefore seized 28 dogs and 8 cats and placed them in the care of the RSPCA.

So it was the police who seized your animals not the RSPCA. The RSPCA knew nothing about you until the police called them in because of their concerns about the health and wellbeing of your animals. The RSPCA had no choice but to take action.


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> If you feel you have the right to end the suffering of animals.. How come not people as well?
> Plenty of times I've walked down the street & seen a child strapped to a chair, unable to move any part of their body, dribbling. Should I contact cps and make a report that the child is suffering? .. Tell them it should be euthanised :-/
> 
> What has happened to people that they believe a human life is worth more


This attitude to animal suffering is why we have the Animal Welfare Act & why we _need_ the RSPCA.

.


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

There are worse fates than a quick humane death? How would you know, have you ever had one 

( please don't think my posts are a personal attack, I'm just trying to question a subject that maybe hasn't been touched upon before ) 

People are always gonna do what they want to do. Animals are classed as property at the end of the day


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## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> There are worse fates than a quick humane death? How would you know, have you ever had one
> 
> ( please don't think my posts are a personal attack, I'm just trying to question a subject that maybe hasn't been touched upon before )
> 
> People are always gonna do what they want to do. Animals are classed as property at the end of the day



Are you immune to animal suffering? Sometime death is the only way to end the suffering.

Ive seen a horse with a broken neck, unable to move. Should the horse have laid there in the pasture slowly rotting to death as tissue necrosis set in, or should he have been quickly PTS to end his suffering?


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

What about the human welfare act, where is that? 

I see plenty of people suffering - how come we don't euthanise them ?


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I have already said - euthanasia is necessary as a last resort. Horses have unique needs, unlike a dog who may have lost it's back legs but can still get around on wheels very happily, a horse cannot go on to live without it's legs so euthanasia would be needed


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> There are worse fates than a quick humane death? How would you know, have you ever had one
> 
> ( please don't think my posts are a personal attack, I'm just trying to question a subject that maybe hasn't been touched upon before )
> 
> People are always gonna do what they want to do. Animals are classed as property at the end of the day


So you would leave an animal to suffer rather than euthanize?

Did that poor little puppy ever get a vets diagnosis? Looking at the shape of her head its possible the poor soul had hydrocephalus.

.

.

.


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## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I don't expect to change the world with my views.. After all it's a multi million dollar industry.
> I am also aware that people have given themselves 'rights'.. People nowadays look for ways to feel good about themselves. When the puppy was PTS the people walked away feeling good about the decision they made. It made them feel good inside.
> I don't save animals to feel good . I do it not to feel bad.
> 
> There's nothing special about saving animals, it's concerning to me how people don't feel they have to


But surely, you have given yourself 'rights'. You have given yourself the right to keep any animal alive, forcing it to live on, even when it's suffering.

We had our Staffy girl put to sleep a year ago. She was fifteen years old, had never been ill and had lived a full, happy life, full of fun, comfort, treats and boundless love. She got every ounce out of life.

In her final week, she developed a cough and, despite three visits from the vet and various medications, she suddenly, one evening became much worse. She was struggling dreadfully to breathe and the poor girl was becoming distressed and terrified.

I called the Vet out and he came immediately. He told me that her trachea had almost collapsed and, left to her own devices, she would literally suffocate. We had her quietly sedated and then given sleep, surrounded by those who loved her, stroking her and talking to her.

Are you really saying that we should have left her to suffocate to death? It would have been kinder that way than easing her quietly out of a life that had become terrifying to her?

If that's what you really believe, then I would question your claim that you don't do what you do to make yourself feel good. Most of us here would never allow an animal to suffer to save ourselves.


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## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I have already said - euthanasia is necessary as a last resort. Horses have unique needs, unlike a dog who may have lost it's back legs but can still get around on wheels very happily, a horse cannot go on to live without it's legs so euthanasia would be needed


Then Im not sure I see what point youre trying to make. You asked if there were worse fates than a human death, I gave you and example, and you agreed with it. So there are in fact worse fates than being PTS.



LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> What about the human welfare act, where is that?
> 
> I see plenty of people suffering - how come we don't euthanise them ?


In some countries we do. And I wish it were legal in more areas. Allowing someone to die with dignity seems like something humans should be allowed also.

Very clever BTW how you have managed to sway the conversation away from the not-so-difficult questions you werent answering.
What birth defect did the puppy who was seen by two vets have?
What kind of enclosure were all those dogs kept in?
How many dogs were in there? 
Why did some animals live in the house and others not?
Why does the pen look like it has feces littered about?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I'm opposed to euthanasia at any age, at all costs. Coming from a medical background I know how an animal is euthanised & what is used.
> 
> I just don't feel I have a right to say I'm putting the animal out of its misery, or giving it a kinder end because how can I know??
> I can't see the animal after death, I can't ask how they're doing now. Putting an end to it's suffering ? I'm just putting an end - full stop.
> 
> Even when it becomes absolutely necessary for an animal to be PTS I still never feel right about it. I only feel sadness for how the situation came to be that way in the 1st place. People have become so accustomed to death as the 'norm' I don't know how they have let this happen. Each one is a life, you can't get it back.. Once it's gone, it's gone! If you can't give it - I don't believe you can take it.


There are many things that can happen to an animal that are worse than death, and I've been unlucky enough to have seen them with my own eyes.

I would have assumed that in your profession, you would have come across similar situations.


----------



## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> What about the human welfare act, where is that?
> 
> I see plenty of people suffering - how come we don't euthanise them ?


Because it's not legal love.

Would you like to tell us please what was wrong with that puppy?


----------



## Misi

noushka05 said:


> Did that poor little puppy ever get a vets diagnosis? Looking at the shape of her head its possible the poor soul had hydrocephalus.


I thought the same


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Absolutely not, as you said her trachea had collapsed & she was suffocating. She was of an elderly age & nothing could be done. Of course euthanasia was the kindest thing to do. But I've understood your situation to be one of which you had no choice but to end her suffering. Which is the only point I'm trying to make. 

As for giving myself rights to keep any animal alive ??? I have absolutely No responsibility for an animal being alive. I'm not God


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## StormyThai

After having to take the agonising decision to have one of my pets *humanely* PTS very recently I think I am going to bow out of this thread.
I refuse to be made feel guilty by someone that clearly has an agenda. 

The decision was not taken lightly I can tell you, I was agonising over the decision for over a week...but you know what my boy did tell me that he had had enough. I am clear in my conscience that I made the right choice.

Sometimes keeping an animal alive just for the sake of it, or because of the ego boast (look I saved such and such), or bragging rights just isn't morally or ethically the right thing to do.

I hope you achieve whatever it is you have set out to do, but I am done :nonod:


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## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Absolutely not, as you said her trachea had collapsed & she was suffocating. She was of an elderly age & nothing could be done. Of course euthanasia was the kindest thing to do. But I've understood your situation to be one of which you had no choice but to end her suffering. Which is the only point I'm trying to make.
> 
> As for giving myself rights to keep any animal alive ??? I have absolutely No responsibility for an animal being alive. I'm not God


But, you're assuming that responsibility.

Your belief that any dog is better off rehomed, even if that home is not a good one, because you are anti euthanasia is playing God, in my opinion.


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## JANICE199

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Absolutely not, as you said her trachea had collapsed & she was suffocating. She was of an elderly age & nothing could be done. Of course euthanasia was the kindest thing to do. But I've understood your situation to be one of which you had no choice but to end her suffering. Which is the only point I'm trying to make.
> 
> As for giving myself rights to keep any animal alive ??? I have absolutely No responsibility for an animal being alive. I'm not God


*You confuse me. You have totally diverted away from the questions you were asked. But you don't mind answering others. And you wonder why some people won't take you at face value? Attention seeking comes to mind.*


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## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I cannot carry on the conversation any longer because you are too much indoctrinated into society. How can we make a determination of life based on legality. 

I'll get back to looking after animals the rspca refuse to take based on them being in a place of safety with me :-/


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## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Absolutely not, as you said her trachea had collapsed & she was suffocating. She was of an elderly age & nothing could be done. Of course euthanasia was the kindest thing to do. But I've understood your situation to be one of which you had no choice but to end her suffering. Which is the only point I'm trying to make.
> 
> As for giving myself rights to keep any animal alive ??? I have absolutely No responsibility for an animal being alive. I'm not God


It is your _duty_ to ensure any animal in your care does not suffer.

*The Animal Welfare Act 2006 makes owners and keepers responsible for ensuring that the welfare needs of their animals are met.

These include the need:
for a suitable environment (place to live)
for a suitable diet
to exhibit normal behaviour patterns
to be housed with or apart from other animals (if applicable)
to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease

Anyone who is cruel to an animal or does not provide for its welfare needs may be banned from owning animals, fined up to £20,000 and/or sent to prison.
*


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## JANICE199

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I cannot carry on the conversation any longer because you are too much indoctrinated into society. How can we make a determination of life based on legality.
> 
> I'll get back to looking after animals the rspca refuse to take based on them being in a place of safety with me :-/


*lol What a cop out. The thread was never about you and your beliefs.As for society and who believes what, well that's another ball game.*


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## Ceiling Kitty

Nope, cannot and will not buy into the 'life at all costs' agenda.

I care very much about animals, not just for them. My cat was euthanased last year _because_ I cared about him.


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## chillminx

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> What about the human welfare act, where is that? I see plenty of people suffering - how come we don't euthanise them ?


Because humans have a concept of death which animals do not. Humans have the ability to make choices, animals do not have the resources to make such choices. We, as their guardians, have to make wise and compassionate choices on their behalf.

If a person who is terminally ill decides they no longer want to live, they may choose to take their own life, or if that is physically impossible for them to do, they might choose to seek help with assisted suicide from an organisation like Dignitas in Switzerland.

Assisted suicide is illegal in the UK, but I think at some future stage it's likely to become allowable, whether we all like the idea or not.

If a person is terminally ill in a lot of pain, a high dose of morphine can justifiably be given to manage the pain. Such a dose is likely to hasten death. The decision may also be made by doctors to stop giving all nutrition, and in some cases to also stop giving fluids, so that death may be hastened more quickly to end suffering.

My sister had Alzheimers and had been tube fed for a year. She developed septicaemia and was very ill. The doctors asked me as her next of kin if I agreed for them to discontinue all food intake and fluids. I could not go along with the idea of no fluids, (it felt wrong) but I agreed to all nutrition being stopped. Her morphine dose was increased, which suppressed her respiratory system. She died 48 hours later.

If that is not assisted dying I don't know what it is. But thank goodness for it. My sister had definitely NOT given up the will to live, she was a strong person and fought for her life every step of the way, but she was in terrible pain and struggling to breathe, even with supplemental oxygen. Would it have been right to let her struggle any longer when there was zero chance of her recovering?


----------



## Calvine

JANICE199 said:


> *Seems to me you are the only one getting out of your pram.*


Give me a break Janice. I an saying what I think, as is everyone else.


----------



## JANICE199

Calvine said:


> Give me a break Janice. I an saying what I think, as is everyone else.


*Ok no problem.*


----------



## Linden_Tree

Shoshannah said:


> There are many things that can happen to an animal that are worse than death, and I've been unlucky enough to have seen them with my own eyes.
> 
> I would have assumed that in your profession, you would have come across similar situations.


I think it's quite clear that this person is not who they are implying to be.

They aren't answering certain questions, because they can't and are merely digging a deeper and deeper hole.

Some of the worst suffering i have seen has been at the hands of people who believe in prolonging life at whatever cost. People think that love and nursing are enough, and lack the capacity to even see the suffering they are causing.

There are numerous situations where the animals need rescuing from the rescuers. This sounds like it could possibly be one.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

parents care very much for their children but don't seek out ways to humanely euthanise them. They seek out treatments. If they were to take their child's life to end their suffering. It would be called murder. 

Regarding the puppies diagnosis, I have already said how I cannot yet disclose this. When I can, I will


----------



## havoc

> There are numerous situations where the animals need rescuing from the rescuers.


Oh so true. May be the case here, we don't know. We don't even know if the poster is really the person at the centre of this. They could be, they might not.


----------



## JANICE199

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> parents care very much for their children but don't seek out ways to humanely euthanise them. They seek out treatments. If they were to take their child's life to end their suffering. It would be called murder.
> 
> Regarding the puppies diagnosis, I have already said how I cannot yet disclose this. When I can, I will


*I can't see why you cannot say what was wrong with the puppy. If you had any worries about what you can and can't say, why join the forum just to post on this thread?*


----------



## JANICE199

havoc said:


> Oh so true. May be the case here, we don't know. We don't even know if the poster is really the person at the centre of this. They could be, they might not.


*I for one doubt very much they are who they claim to be. IF i am wrong then i will say sorry.*


----------



## Rafa

I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, but as a rule, the RSPCA don't seize multiple numbers of animals from one source, unless there is a welfare issue.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Hoarders | Rescue-Abuse.com


----------



## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> parents care very much for their children but don't seek out ways to humanely euthanise them. They seek out treatments. If they were to take their child's life to end their suffering. It would be called murder.
> 
> Regarding the puppies diagnosis, I have already said how I cannot yet disclose this. When I can, I will


Why on earth wouldn't you be able to disclose what type of birth defect she had?

.


----------



## Linden_Tree

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> *parents care very much for their children but don't seek out ways to humanely euthanise them*. They seek out treatments. If they were to take their child's life to end their suffering. It would be called murder.
> 
> Regarding the puppies diagnosis, I have already said how I cannot yet disclose this. When I can, I will


In Belgium they can and they do.

I'm sure you'd find many parents would give anything to end their child's suffering.

I really detest comparing humans and animals, and especially children and animals. they are not one and the same, and the law differs greatly between the two.

It shows complete ignorance to carry on drawing comparison that isn't there.


----------



## JANICE199

Shoshannah said:


> Hoarders | Rescue-Abuse.com


*Thank you for the link. I'm even more suspicious now.*


----------



## chillminx

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> parents care very much for their children but don't seek out ways to humanely euthanise them. They seek out treatments. If they were to take their child's life to end their suffering. It would be called murder.


See my post above ^^

Parents cannot legally end a child's life but doctors can legally hasten the death of a terminally ill person (adult or child) if they are in pain by giving high doses of morphine which suppresses the respiratory system.

I know of cases where distraught parents have begged doctors to do all they can within the law to end a terminally ill child's life when there is terrible suffering.


----------



## bingolitle

I will admit to having been a little uncomfortable with the username chosen by our friend. I suspect whoever they might be, they may well need help as much as whatever animals they think they are rescuing. 

Did she not say the vet was her partner at some point?

This concerns me more. A vet should KNOW what constitutes suffering!


----------



## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> The rspca also forgot to mention the puppy they put to sleep after they had taken her because she looked alittle different from other dogs her breed. This dog was very much loved by everyone that met her. Disabilities shouldn't carry an automatic death sentence, especially when there is someone willing to take on the animal and the cost of treatment themselves.
> Obviously this dog was not cost effective enough for the rspca
> No matter how many times the rspca try to slander my work in the papers & regardless of the content written about the work im doing. I will work relentlessly to save animals from needlessly being euthanised.





LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> The 'unnecessary suffering to protected animals' refers to the dog with disabilities I referred to in my earlier post. This puppy was PTS no longer than 2 days after being seized by the rspca. Not long enough to observe how happy she was to be alive. The 'fear for some of the animals welfare' is a very smart way for them to get publicity without having to tell the public the animals were rescues, so of course some of them were not in tip top condition & they were in a vet practice.. Isn't that where you take animals when u have welfare concerns ???
> 
> They have simply portrayed the story as if the animals were all pets and not being looked after
> 
> No questions were asked before seizing the animals - we would have been happy to work along with them. We even went to the lengths of acquiring a larger premises to accommodate the animals for rescue


I jumped on the end of this thread so have just gone back to read it from the beginning & these three posts jumped out at me. Even looking at the pics its clear she was a very unhappy, poorly little puppy



LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Breed traits, origins and general behaviour also play a part.. You can't walk around with the check list that every dog must have a particular bed (for instance) because some breeds will respect the bedding, others will chew it to bits eg.Siberian Husky. No bedding seen for a dog by the rspca can cause them to investigate & even seize dogs without knowing the background.
> I must say, when I read the story of the Vet.. I did discuss it with my partner & say that the man was actually mistreating his dogs, especially because we have medical knowledge, I certainly couldn't understand why he wouldn't treat easily rectifiable conditions that were left to progress to a worse state. My partner agreed but did say the man doesn't seem stable. I must state though that this case is nothing like mine, none of the dogs I had were suffering from anything other than a few of them being underweight which was due to a food change over & a change in circumstances which is to be expected of some dogs when going into a new environment. Absolutely none of the animals in my care had any skin complaints nor anything else. I take great pride in the way animals in my care look. Some of my dogs are shown & I have Huskies so we also attend rallies.. All of my friends have snow dogs, so either show or work them. I know one of the top Canadian Eskimo breeders in the country, in fact she was just on the televised Crufts for this year with a dog she brought over from Canada as she is trying to preserve the breed by introducing new lines from overseas.


I use to show my Siberians, a lot of my friends still do & many also compete at rallies. Maybe we know some of the same owners?. Do you have an affix? So did you breed the puppy? My first thoughts were shes a sickly husky/mal cross? but maybe she was a Siberian husky.

,

,

,


----------



## Rafa

I find it a little odd that the OP can show pictures of this pup on a public forum, state that the pup had a birth defect and claim that the RSPCA put the puppy to sleep, yet she won't say what the birth defect was.

I wonder if this is simply a person who has a personal grudge against the RSPCA but, again, it is very odd that the RSPCA would seize multiple animals for no good reason.


----------



## Misi

I only see one picture of said puppy, am I going do-lally or has another post been deleted


----------



## Guest

Shoshannah said:


> Hoarders | Rescue-Abuse.com


Weve dealt with the aftermath of a couple of hoarding cases and its really so sad all around. Its definitely a human illness also, just so sad


----------



## noushka05

Misi said:


> I only see one picture of said puppy, am I going do-lally or has another post been deleted


Looks like it has :/


----------



## Ang2

The OP has given an account, together with photographs, of a cat that was rescued, given surgery (for free) and is now looking for its forever home. Yet nobody has given credit, or said a kind word about that.

I don't think there are enough facts, either way, to pass judgment on this story. I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer, but TBH I am not entirely clear of the beliefs of the OP. So much hostility without any facts.


----------



## StormyThai

After finding the exact same wording of posts done on fb I have found that LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA does indeed reside in Cardiff...

Agenda sussed I will leave them to their ridiculous opinions :nono:


----------



## JANICE199

Ang2 said:


> The OP has given an account, together with photographs, of a cat that was rescued, given surgery (for free) and is now looking for its forever home. Yet nobody has given credit, or said a kind word about that.
> 
> I don't think there are enough facts, either way, to pass judgment on this story. I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer, but TBH I am not entirely clear of the beliefs of the OP. So much hostility without any facts.


*Perhaps because as members we cannot be sure if the person is genuine or not.
I for one never usually jump on a newbie with questions. But in his case, i feel it is justified. I will not believe just anything that is said.*


----------



## JANICE199

StormyThai said:


> After finding the exact same wording of posts done on fb I have found that LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA does indeed reside in Cardiff...
> 
> Agenda sussed I will leave them to their ridiculous opinions :nono:


*Can you copy and paste please.*


----------



## Guest

StormyThai said:


> After finding the exact same wording of posts done on fb I have found that LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA *does indeed reside in Cardiff...*
> 
> Agenda sussed I will leave them to their ridiculous opinions :nono:


Help a foreigner out - what does that mean?


----------



## Ang2

StormyThai said:


> After finding the exact same wording of posts done on fb I have found that LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA does indeed reside in Cardiff...
> 
> Agenda sussed I will leave them to their ridiculous opinions :nono:


Now Im totally confused!


----------



## StormyThai

ouesi said:


> Help a foreigner out - what does that mean?


Completely the opposite side of the country (kinda..it's roughly a 4 hour drive) :lol:


----------



## Guest

StormyThai said:


> Completely the opposite side of the country (kinda..it's roughly a 4 hour drive) :lol:


So not involved in the Armley vets in Leeds at all?
Oh my....


----------



## JANICE199

*LMAO Give people enough rope and they will hang themselves.*


----------



## Ang2

The vet once lived in Cardiff

The committee had heard that, in July 2011, Samuel, who was living in Cardiff, had been in dispute with neighbour Heather Jackson over construction works at his property.
Leeds vet who attacked neighbour struck from the register - Yorkshire Evening Post


----------



## chillminx

Yes it is the same vet.


----------



## StormyThai

JANICE199 said:


> *Can you copy and paste please.*


Sure 

Their first post here:


LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> This matter is personal between myself and the rspca. I along with the veterinary practice helped to rescue animals that would otherwise be euthanised on the rspca's say so. I REFUSE to put to sleep animals that have a chance to live a happy & healthy life. No where in the article did it mention abuse contrary to the publics belief.. Neither did it mention the fact we are STILL doing work for the rspca & are caring for a cat at this very moment on their say so.
> The rspca absolutely REFUSE to have any involvment with stray & injured animals to such a point that we incur the costs ourselves, we then re-habilitate the animals and re-home them to loving families where they live out their lives happy. If we are brought a stray animal with something as simple as a broken leg that can be fixed, the rspca's response when contacted is simply 'PUT IT TO SLEEP'.. When we refuse to put a healthy animal to sleep & make the decision to call the rspca & let them know we will treat it ourselves, their response is 'WHAT IS IT STILL DOING ALIVE?!?'
> I wish people would get to know the facts before they go making slanderous comments about situations they know nothing about. Just because its in the paper doesnt make it true. (No one is released on bail)
> The rspca also forgot to mention the puppy they put to sleep after they had taken her because she looked alittle different from other dogs her breed. This dog was very much loved by everyone that met her. Disabilities shouldn't carry an automatic death sentence, especially when there is someone willing to take on the animal and the cost of treatment themselves.
> Obviously this dog was not cost effective enough for the rspca
> No matter how many times the rspca try to slander my work in the papers & regardless of the content written about the work im doing. I will work relentlessly to save animals from needlessly being euthanised.


And then their post on fb:


> Do you know the story ? I can only assume not because if you had any correct information at all you would know it had nothing to do with abuse.
> I know this because the matter is personal between myself and the rspca. myself along with the veterinary practice helped to rescue animals that would otherwise be euthanised on the rspca's say so. I REFUSE to put to sleep animals that have a chance to live a happy & healthy life. No where in the article did it mention abuse. Neither did it mention the fact we are STILL doing work for the rspca & are caring for a cat at this very moment on their say so.
> The rspca absolutely REFUSE to have any involvment with stray & injured animals to such a point that we incur the costs ourselves, we then re-habilitate the animals and re-home them to loving families where they live out their lives happy. If we are brought a stray animal with something as simple as a broken leg that can be fixed, the rspca's response when contacted is simply 'PUT IT TO SLEEP'.. When we refuse to put a healthy animal to sleep & make the decision to call the rspca & let them know we will treat it ourselves, their response is 'WHAT IS IT STILL DOING ALIVE?!?'
> Know the facts before you go making slanderous comments about situations you dont know. Just because its in the paper doesnt make it true. Neither is anyone on bail
> The rspca also forgot to mention the puppy they put to sleep after they had taken her because she looked alittle different from other dogs her breed. This dog was very much loved by everyone that met her. Disabilities shouldn't carry an automatic death sentence, especially when there is someone willing to take on the animal and the cost of treatment themselves.
> Obviously this dog was not cost effective enough for the rspca
> No matter how many times the rspca try to slander my work in the papers & regardless of the content written about the work i am doing. I will work relentlessly to save animals from needlessly being euthanised.


I don't buy that the vet commuted 8 hours a day to work


----------



## StormyThai

It would also seem this isn't the first or second time this vet has been in hot water...

404 Not Found


----------



## Ang2

StormyThai said:


> It would also seem this isn't the first or second time this vet has been in hot water...
> 
> 404 Not Found


Kicking a custard cream, and a dispute with a neighbour, does not make a bad vet!


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Hmm.. Everyone is being very literal & really running with something there is nothing to run with. 
I'm very passionate about animals & maybe my posts are coming off a little strong. All I'm out to do is help an animal In need when I can, whether it be a home, cost of treatment etc.. 
People are forgetting I see alot of unnecessary cases of people wanting to euthanise their animals. I had a case once where someone wanted to put their husky to sleep because it jumped a fence & killed next doors cat. My conscience couldn't allow that for obvious reasons. 

I told the lady I had no more space at all to take any more dogs but I would call around until I found someone & not to make any moves until I got back to her. I found the dog a place with a breed rescue only because it was classed as an urgent case.. The rescue wasn't taking in any more dogs. 

With regards to hoarding - I'm only 27 I don't have any desire to hoard animals but what do I do with a litter of kittens dumped on my door step in a pillow case.. with all rescues refusing them because lack of space ?? Or someone who comes and tells me they have found kittens on the street & when I tell them I CANNOT take any more, they reply that they will drown them or put them back on the street


----------



## chillminx

If I come across as critical of the OP it is purely because they do not appear to be presenting the facts in a truthful manner, which I fear has the effect of making me suspicious of other things they say. 

The impression given by the OP was that the RSPCA had barged in to the vet's premises and seized all the animals. But the true fact is that it was the police who seized the animals because they were so concerned about their welfare, based on what they saw. 

The police had gained access to the premises on an unrelated matter (when they went there to investigate a report of an assault and theft). Once on the premises they looked around and were evidently alarmed by what they saw. 

My view, from working closely with the police in the course of my past career, is they are not in the habit of overreacting hysterically to situations such as animals being at risk. If what they saw gave them enough cause for concern to contact RSPCA, then there must have been some substance to their report. 

I appreciate that some of the rescued animals may well have had good veterinary care whilst at the premises, eg. Wilbur the cat. But this does not detract from the fact that the conditions in which some of the animals were being kept were less than ideal. 

People who seek to rescue animals in these circumstances are not bad people, and should not be castigated for caring, but they may be people who have taken on more than they can handle.


----------



## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Hmm.. Everyone is being very literal & really running with something there is nothing to run with.
> I'm very passionate about animals & maybe my posts are coming off a little strong. All I'm out to do is help an animal In need when I can, whether it be a home, cost of treatment etc..
> People are forgetting I see alot of unnecessary cases of people wanting to euthanise their animals. I had a case once where someone wanted to put their husky to sleep because it jumped a fence & killed next doors cat. My conscience couldn't allow that for obvious reasons.
> 
> I told the lady I had no more space at all to take any more dogs but I would call around until I found someone & not to make any moves until I got back to her. I found the dog a place with a breed rescue only because it was classed as an urgent case.. The rescue wasn't taking in any more dogs.
> 
> With regards to hoarding - *I'm only 27 I don't have any desire to hoard animals *but what do I do with a litter of kittens dumped on my door step in a pillow case.. with all rescues refusing them because lack of space ?? Or someone who comes and tells me they have found kittens on the street & when I tell them I CANNOT take any more, the reply that they will drown them or put them back on the street


Nobody *wants* to hoard animals 
And what does age have to do with it?

Checking the news link, 


> While at the property officers became concerned for the welfare of a number of dogs and cats at the premises.
> 
> A 48-year-old man and a 27-year-old woman were arrested on suspicion of causing unnecessary suffering to protected animals.
> 
> Officers notified the RSPCA who removed a number of animals from the property.
> 
> Both those arrested, including a man understood to be the vet Gary Samuel, have been released on bail.


If that 27 year old is you, may I suggest you stop posting all over the internet, and find yourself a good lawyer and only talk to them.


----------



## jaycee05

Shoshannah said:


> Hoarders | Rescue-Abuse.com


RE; these links ,i have been wondering why there were so many animals, what were they going to do with them all, i think it was said they rehomed them sometimes, , but if so why so many, living at a vets, and why would a vet pay people for them, ? and all pedigrees, still have not found the pic of the puppy, even after searching all threads,can someone point me to it please


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

People are really horrible yea, this situation has really made me question whether it is worth putting yourself out to help when all you receive is negativity & criticism. Only myself, my family & friends know the way I cared for the animals in my care. 

I will never turn down an animal in need but it does definitely make you think twice about the situation. Save them or yourself 

And I think I'll stick to finding Wilbur a home elsewhere as the people here seem too consumed with proving a point out of some displaced anger.


----------



## StormyThai

Ang2 said:


> Kicking a custard cream, and a dispute with a neighbour, does not make a bad vet!


I didn't say it did


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> People are really horrible yea, this situation has really made me question whether it is worth putting yourself out to help when all you receive is negativity & criticism. Only myself, my family & friends know the way I cared for the animals in my care.
> 
> I will never turn down an animal in need but it does definitely make you think twice about the situation. Save them or yourself
> 
> And I think I'll stick to finding Wilbur a home elsewhere as the people here seem too consumed with proving a point out of some displaced anger.


LNE, I do believe you are who you say you are.

And for that reason, I think you need to be really careful about what you are saying on here, and on the FB posts. If there is an ongoing investigation, I'm not certain that the things you are saying could not be used as evidence.

Of course it's commendable that you are looking after some of these animals, but I cannot agree with your stance on euthanasia (as outlined on here and FB), and without all the facts I can't be satisfied that the police/RSPCA have acted out of turn.


----------



## StormyThai

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> People are really horrible yea, this situation has really made me question whether it is worth putting yourself out to help when all you receive is negativity & criticism. *Only myself, my family & friends know the way I cared for the animals in my care. *
> 
> I will never turn down an animal in need but it does definitely make you think twice about the situation. Save them or yourself
> 
> And I think I'll stick to finding Wilbur a home elsewhere as the people here seem too consumed with proving a point out of some displaced anger.


See I have had many animals at one time..at one stage I was up to 40 (all small furries so groups)...Everyone that met the animals could tell how I cared for the animals, not just family and friends.
And yes I too have had animals dumped on my doorstep, I have even arranged for some to come half way across the country..

You only receive criticism when things don't add up and half truths are told


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Regarding euthanasia, it's not a personal attack. I'm simply saying that the rspca have money, so shouldn't use excuses to euthanise animals that can be treated. Cost should not be an excuse so much for them compared with the general public who genuinely can't always afford the costs. 

But my concern is- life shouldn't be measured on what can be afforded. Some owners are forced to have their Pets euthanised due to costs. More should be done to help with this. This is where I try to help. I have an advantage being part of a Practice & will help when I can.


----------



## Rafa

I have a horrible feeling that you may be keeping and rehoming animals your Clients have brought in to be put to sleep.

I really hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Guest

Sweety said:


> I have a horrible feeling that you may be keeping and rehoming animals your Clients have brought in to be put to sleep.
> 
> I really hope I'm wrong.


Oh no! I hope you are too!! I hadnt even thought of that!


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Oh dear.. Wow y'all have really showed your true colours. And that is why the animals are euthanised in front of the owner or at home. That's why we keep receipts from the pet cremation company. 

People must really be upto shady things In their lives to suspect it of others. 

That's a really low thing to accuse someone of . Shame on you


----------



## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Oh dear.. Wow y'all have really showed your true colours. And that is why the animals are euthanised in front of the owner or at home. That's why we keep receipts from the pet cremation company.
> 
> People must really be upto shady things In their lives to suspect it of others.
> 
> That's a really low thing to accuse someone of . Shame on you


I did not "accuse" you of anything.

It was a feeling I had from reading some of your posts.

I don't know what or who you really are, but you make me feel uneasy.

Strange though that you would say "That is why we keep receipts from the pet cremation company".

Why do you feel the need to protect yourself on that score?


----------



## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Regarding euthanasia, it's not a personal attack. I'm simply saying that the rspca have money, so shouldn't use excuses to euthanise animals that can be treated. Cost should not be an excuse so much for them compared with the general public who genuinely can't always afford the costs.
> 
> But my concern is- life shouldn't be measured on what can be afforded. Some owners are forced to have their Pets euthanised due to costs. More should be done to help with this. This is where I try to help. I have an advantage being part of a Practice & will help when I can.


This post in particular.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Yes.. Meaning I will pay for treatment out of my own pocket to help owners in need. How can I watch an owner cry for their pet, knowing that not being able to afford treatment would mean euthanasia for their beloved pet, friend & family member & do nothing. 

Y'all are heartless. This world really is in a mess but I refuse to be a part of it


----------



## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Yes.. Meaning I will pay for treatment out of my own pocket to help owners in need. How can I watch an owner cry for their pet, knowing that not being able to afford treatment would mean euthanasia for their beloved pet, friend & family member & do nothing.
> 
> Y'all are heartless. This world really is in a mess but I refuse to be a part of it


You are part of it.

Where did the pup with the birth defect come from?

You have said it was "different from the rest of the litter". How do you know that? Did you breed it yourself or were you told that by the Breeder who brought it to you?


----------



## Guest

LNE, lots of vets help owners who need financial help. Either they accept payment plans, they comp certain costs, etc. Thats not unusual. 

But I have to reiterate, the more you post, the bigger of a hole youre digging yourself. If you are indeed the 27 year old who was arrested along with the vet on suspicion of causing unnecessary suffering, you are not helping yourself at all by posting on here, or on FB or on the other places where a quick google search leads to the same posts. 

Get a lawyer, and - I mean this in the kindest way - just shut up already.


----------



## StormyThai

Good to know I am heartless!

It's posts like that, that kinda lose you any credibility, you have no idea who we are or what we do but because we don't all fall at your feet we are labeled heartless


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I suppose you can't change what people say about you or how they treat you.. All you can do is change how you react to it


----------



## StormyThai

Oh the irony :hand:


----------



## leashedForLife

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> ...
> 
> Even when it becomes *absolutely necessary for an animal to be PTS* I still never feel right about it.
> I only feel sadness for how the situation came to be that way in the 1st place.
> 
> *People have become so accustomed to death as the 'norm'* - I don't know how they've let this happen.
> Each... is a life, you can't get it back. Once it's gone, it's gone! If you can't give [life] - I don't believe
> you can take it.


I'm past 50-YO, & have been present for natural deaths, as well as multiple euthanasias.
Quite a few of the natural deaths were painful, or slow - I'm a PCA / Certified Home-health Aide,
& have worked with elderly ppl for years. There are many humans who wish desperately that they could be
legally & humanely euthanized; there are euthanasia tourists going to Europe, who are terminal, know it,
& want to arrange the time & circumstances of their own deaths.

I've seen nonhumans die of trauma [if they're lucky, it's fast; if they're not, it's slow, & may be agonizing].
I've witnessed deaths from chronic illness - COPD, emphysema, heart failure, cancer, HIV / AIDS. Some were
peaceful & relatively, or even entirely, painless - others were awful, for the patient, the family, the caregivers.

And I'd like to note, here: *Death is the norm.* Nobody leaves this planet alive.

Like it or not, *life is a terminal diagnosis*. An English oak may have a 900-year lifespan, but it dies.
A redwood can live a thousand years - but it dies. Humans rarely make it to a century. Cats are lucky to
live for 20-years; dogs, on average, for 15 - toy-sized dogs longer, giants about a decade.

Some species have very-brief lifespans: mayfly, 24-hours as a breeding, flying adult, with no mouth -
they never eat, they emerge, mate, females lay eggs, & all the adults die.

How & when an individual dies often is not under their control; for my own pets, when they were in severe
pain & there was no way to fix the problem, I took them to a vet, & had them euthanized. I regretted their deaths,
but NOT the manner of their deaths; I mourned their loss - to me, their own loss of this world - but i didn't, & don't,
regret "arranging" their deaths, as the other choice, letting them continue to suffer, wasn't a choice at all.

I've seen young animals euthanized for rare but horrid medical issues; my then-consort's housemate, he had
a handsome, intelligent, well-trained & sociable black Lab. At only 2-YO, Zeus developed an odd, permanent
runny nose - the vet thought maybe allergies?... Fungal?... Very dry indoors?...
It was cancer, high up beside the brain, at the back of his sinuses; the tumor eventually caused epilepsy,
it was inoperable & increasingly painful. Pressure made his eyes protrude; his left nostril bled thinly.

I think his owner's decision to euthanize his dog was the only humane decision he could have made.
And i cannot fathom how U can think that "life" under any circumstances is ALWAYS better. As a healthcare
pro, & a certified vet's assistant, I would very-much disagree.
.
.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

1st of all I would like to commend you on your well informed, well written post., I appreciate this. 

I don't agree that life under ANY circumstances is better than euthanasia
.. I don't know why people have that impression when I've said that I believe euthanasia is a last resort once all other avenues have been exhausted & this is just a belief I have for my own conscience. What others believe or choose is their prerogative. 
As I keep saying, I have the advantage of a practice so all avenues can be explored with regards to medication, treatment, surgery etc.. 
Before euthanasia is considered 

My fight is not with the people on here but with the rspca for taking life from animals before avenues were explored. Surely between the both of us, treatment could have been an option- Right fighting did the puppy no good at all  

Obviously euthanasia is a common occurrence in a vet practice so I'm not some kind of activist against all euthanasia, I just don't like the public to be fooled into thinking of it too casually as an easy decent. I've seen many a time an animal fighting to live whilst being PTS and that does not sit well with me.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Financial gain is an ever increasing part of society & unfortunately euthanasia is big business. I for one can sleep easier at night knowing I explored all avenues available to me before choosing to take life from an animal simply because I can & to make a quick buck. Clients / pet owners deserve this.


----------



## noushka05

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> The puppy wasn't thin, but she looked different. I wanted to post a picture where people could see her from an angle that shows her differences


The puppy looked different because she _was _different, she was quite clearly a very sick & miserable little puppy. I only jumped on this thread because I looked at that photo & I was shocked & upset by what I saw. I had no idea you were involved in this case until I went back & read the whole thread.

To put a sick puppy in an awful pen like that & with other puppies where by your words she was 'picked on' is really disturbing to me. And her feet did look sore, infact to me, they looked raw! - I think its very telling that you have since removed that photo.

.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Your ignorance towards the puppy from a photo is very telling

Regarding the photo, a member asked me to only post pictures of animals inside the home. Which I have respectfully tried to do.


----------



## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Your ignorance towards the puppy from a photo is very telling
> 
> Regarding the photo, *a member asked me to only post pictures of animals inside the home.* Which I have respectfully tried to do.


No.... nobody asked that?

And members have asked you to explain what was wrong with the puppy, and you havent. 
Then members asked you how you can post pictures of the pup, divulge that he/she was different, had been seen by 2 vets, but suddenly you cant divulge what the condition was?

Why were all the dogs pedigreed?
Were you breeding any of them?


----------



## StormyThai

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Your ignorance towards the puppy from a photo is very telling
> 
> Regarding the photo, a member asked me to only post pictures of animals inside the home. Which I have respectfully tried to do.


And your ignorance towards questions asked is even more telling.


----------



## JANICE199

*It would be nice to see the RSPCA's response to this thread.*


----------



## catcoonz

catcoonz said:


> Can you not post previous photograph's of the animals who were happy in your home, the impression I am getting is leaning towards rspca.
> 
> The photo of the puppy in dirty conditions is just too upsetting, so thin as well.


The quote of what I posted.


----------



## StormyThai

JANICE199 said:


> *It would be nice to see the RSPCA's response to this thread.*


They won't respond until the case has been heard in court...pretty much what LNE should have done *if* they are indeed involved :mellow:


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Obviously euthanasia is a common occurrence in a vet practice so I'm not some kind of activist against all euthanasia, I just don't like the public to be fooled into thinking of it too casually as an easy decent. I've seen many a time an animal fighting to live whilst being PTS and that does not sit well with me.


Fighting to live, or just struggling against restraint for an IV injection?

Is this anthropomorphism?

ETA: And I can't see anyone getting rich off euthanasia, personally. Excuse my callous language, but dead animals don't make anyone any money - living ones do.


----------



## jaycee05

I would just like to know where *DID* all these animals com,e from, how come you had them if they were not all yours


----------



## lostbear

Shoshannah said:


> Fighting to live, or just struggling against restraint for an IV injection?
> 
> Is this anthropomorphism?
> 
> ETA:* And I can't see anyone getting rich off euthanasia, personally.* Excuse my callous language, but* dead animals don't make anyone any money *- living ones do.


Sorry, Shosh - have to disagree with this. When we had our old cat PTS (22 years old), it took the vet less than five minutes and it cost us £95!


----------



## Guest

Ive never been charged to have a dog euthanized. 
Different vets too.


----------



## leashedForLife

ouesi said:


> Ive never been charged to have a dog euthanized.
> Different vets, too.


I've never NOT been charged - ever, even for my itty-bitty Salmon-Bellied Snake, who was the size
of a brand-new pencil.

Dogs, cats, birds, livestock - none were "no charge".

OTOH, re Shoshannah's comment, a live animal continues to need vet care; a dead pet only needs burial
or cremation; neither are services that most vets provide, & all 3 - euth, bury, cremate - are ONE-TIME only.
Keeping the animal alive would be much-more profitable.
.
.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Trust me, if a vet thinks your animal may die anyways. They will advise you to PTS because there's money to be made.. Leave the animal to die a natural death = £0 

Wake up!

Not only that but most people then decide to get a new pet = vaccinations, microchipping etc = ££

And the circle of life starts over


----------



## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Trust me, if a vet thinks your animal may die anyways. They will advise you to PTS because there's money to be made.. Leave the animal to die a natural death = £0
> 
> Wake up!
> 
> Not only that but most people then decide to get a new pet = vaccinations, microchipping etc = ££
> 
> And the circle of life starts over


You must have been exposed to some very unscrupulous vets.

So... why were all those dogs purebred? How did you end up with them? Did you breed them?


----------



## jaycee05

t is expensive, was that just for pts or anything else on top, not cremation etc, my cats have usually been around £35 -45 just recently, but for a newborn kitten who was struggling to breathe, with a cleft palate,it was £25, i think tht is a lot for a tiny little thing like that


----------



## Rafa

ouesi said:


> You must have been exposed to some very unscrupulous vets.
> 
> So... why were all those dogs purebred? How did you end up with them? Did you breed them?


This.

If you want us to take you seriously, please answer our questions instead of ranting about your beliefs.

Where did you get all these animals from? How come they were all pedigrees and from where did you get the sick Husky pup?

You've been asked this over and over again and you're clearly dodging the question.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Not that I have to explain myself to anyone but I did rescue as explained in earlier posts. I try to focus on a breed that is suffering the most at that time from over population due to unscrupulous breeding for £..

I will take in any animal of any breed under the circumstances that I have a place for it, urgent cases come first. 
Space is an issue compared to how many animals need places.. This Is assessed with regards to what breed & temperament the animal is, as some breeds live very happy in a pack & welcome company. Others do not.

I try to keep an eye on the latest 'dog trends' as i know more often than not - that breed will suffer from over breeding.. Next thing I do is look online at rescues who once welcomed unwanted dogs but have since put up BOLD red warnings on their web pages saying how they can longer accept any more dogs due to having too many unwanted dogs & not enough homes. Basically they are FULL. This is where I try to help. 
(And I am not ashamed to say I have a special place in my heart for certain breeds)

I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently because quite frankly, I don't care how you take me & I will not be explaining myself again. I am not on trial & I am not a bad person. My joy in life comes from seeing animals thrive & overcome situations & disabilities without ever complaining.. But simply, accepting what life has to offer & making the best of it. They make me a better person.


----------



## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Not that I have to explain myself to anyone but I did rescue as explained in earlier posts. I try to focus on a breed that is suffering the most at that time from over population due to unscrupulous breeding for £..
> 
> I will take in any animal of any breed under the circumstances that I have a place for it, urgent cases come first.
> Space is an issue compared to how many animals need places.. This Is assessed with regards to what breed & temperament the animal is, as some breeds live very happy in a pack & welcome company. Others do not.
> 
> I try to keep an eye on the latest 'dog trends' as i know more often than not - that breed will suffer from over breeding.. Next thing I do is look online at rescues who once welcomed unwanted dogs but have since put up BOLD red warnings on their web pages saying how they can longer accept any more dogs due to having too many unwanted dogs & not enough homes. Basically they are FULL. This is where I try to help.
> (And I am not ashamed to say I have a special place in my heart for certain breeds)


Another non answer.

You had 22 dogs. Mostly (all?) purebreds, mostly (all?) malamutes and huskies?

Thats not any breed, urgent cases come first.

And it almost sounds like you went out looking for these dogs. Earlier it sounded more like these dogs were dumped on you, that owners just dumped them on your doorstep.

Are you neutering all these dogs and bitches? Because if you have them all living in a pack together we all know what happens next....


----------



## Guest

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently because quite frankly, I don't care how you take me & I will not be explaining myself again. I am not on trial & I am not a bad person. My joy in life comes from seeing animals thrive & overcome situations & disabilities without ever complaining.. But simply, accepting what life has to offer & making the best of it. They make me a better person.


Just saw your edit.
I dont think you are a bad person, I dont know you. 

I do think there is more going on here than you are leading us to believe.

It was not the RSPCA that initially showed up at your doorstep demanding to take the dogs. It was the police. That makes me think it must have been bad if it was enough to alert even stoic police officers. What did they find upsetting enough to call the RSPCA over?


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

lostbear said:


> Sorry, Shosh - have to disagree with this. When we had our old cat PTS (22 years old), it took the vet less than five minutes and it cost us £95!


I meant the bigger picture - of course euthanasia generates a fee, but any vet making a living out of euthanasing animals isn't going to make a fraction of one who makes a living out of treating them.

You could treat three dogs with intestinal foreign bodies and make several thousand, or you could euthanase them all and make a couple of hundred.

Obviously, this all sounds very unfeeling. I don't like talking this way - it doesn't sit well with me as I strongly believe there is so much more to it than money - but the principle of the argument is there.



LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Trust me, *if a vet thinks your animal may die anyways. They will advise you to PTS because there's money to be made..* Leave the animal to die a natural death = £0


Opinion. No evidence to back that up. I don't trust you on that one, sorry.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Trust me, if a vet thinks your animal may die anyways. They will advise you to PTS because there's money to be made.. Leave the animal to die a natural death = £0
> 
> Wake up!


Actually, that's made me a bit cross.

Leaving an animal to die a natural death may be free (convenient, that ), but that doesn't make it the fairest option. YOU wake up.


----------



## Sacrechat

Surely, if an animal is so sick that it's dying then said animal is likely to be in the vet's surgery on a drip, receiving treatment etc? This being the case , a pet owner would be incurring hospitalisation costs anyway, so a vet putting an animal to sleep would be cheaper than keeping it alive and waiting for natural death to occur? For me, LNE, your argument that euthanasia puts more money into vets' pockets just does not hold water. One of my cats was taken to The University of Liverpool Small Animal Teaching Hospital because he had a rare heart condition and he had started to deteriorate. Whilst there his heart failed, they tried to revive him but he died a natural death. No euthanasia was involved; it still cost us nearly £400. Had he survived, it would have cost a lot more. I agree with Shosh, vets do not euthanise to make money. Keeping an animal alive generates income not death.


----------



## noushka05

Sweety said:


> This.
> 
> If you want us to take you seriously, please answer our questions instead of ranting about your beliefs.
> 
> Where did you get all these animals from? How come they were all pedigrees and from where did you get the sick Husky pup?
> 
> You've been asked this over and over again and you're clearly dodging the question.





LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Not that I have to explain myself to anyone but I did rescue as explained in earlier posts. I try to focus on a breed that is suffering the most at that time from over population due to unscrupulous breeding for £..
> 
> I will take in any animal of any breed under the circumstances that I have a place for it, urgent cases come first.
> Space is an issue compared to how many animals need places.. This Is assessed with regards to what breed & temperament the animal is, as some breeds live very happy in a pack & welcome company. Others do not.
> 
> I try to keep an eye on the latest 'dog trends' as i know more often than not - that breed will suffer from over breeding.. Next thing I do is look online at rescues who once welcomed unwanted dogs but have since put up BOLD red warnings on their web pages saying how they can longer accept any more dogs due to having too many unwanted dogs & not enough homes. Basically they are FULL. This is where I try to help.
> (And I am not ashamed to say I have a special place in my heart for certain breeds)
> 
> I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently because quite frankly, I don't care how you take me & I will not be explaining myself again. I am not on trial & I am not a bad person. My joy in life comes from seeing animals thrive & overcome situations & disabilities without ever complaining.. But simply, accepting what life has to offer & making the best of it. They make me a better person.


But you said you show your dogs. This can only mean that they are KC registered so either you bought them from a breeder? or you bred them yourself? :/

Who bred your Siberians?

.


----------



## chillminx

ouesi said:


> It was not the RSPCA that initially showed up at your doorstep demanding to take the dogs. It was the police. That makes me think it must have been bad if it was enough to alert even stoic police officers. What did they find upsetting enough to call the RSPCA over?


Just to mention, (for the sake of accuracy), the police had in fact attended the premises on another matter. They were investigating a report made by a neighbour of an alleged assault and theft of property.

The police either wished to interview one of the occupants of the vet's premises, or they were there with a warrant to arrest him. Either way that's how they gained access to the premises.

Then whilst on the premises the police became concerned about the welfare of the cats and dogs being kept there, and as a result they called on the RSPCA and asked them to take the animals into their care.

As you rightly say Ouesi, the police wouldn't have taken that action, unless they were genuinely very concerned about the animals.


----------



## StormyThai

chillminx said:


> Just to mention, (for the sake of accuracy), the police had in fact attended the premises on another matter. They were investigating a report made by a neighbour of an alleged assault and theft of property.
> 
> The police either wished to interview one of the occupants of the vet's premises, or they were there with a warrant to arrest him. Either way that's how they gained access to the premises.
> 
> *Then whilst on the premises the police became concerned about the welfare of the cats and dogs being kept there, and as a result they called on the RSPCA and asked them to take the animals into their care. *
> 
> As you rightly say Ouesi, the police wouldn't have taken that action, unless they were genuinely very concerned about the animals.


See this is what has stuck in my head from the start..the police don't make a habit of checking animals on a property unless there is something seriously wrong. 
All the RSPCA did was clean up the mess it would seem


----------



## chillminx

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Trust me, if a vet thinks your animal may die anyways. They will advise you to PTS because there's money to be made.. Leave the animal to die a natural death = £0
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving an animal to die a "natural death" can be a cruel thing to do, causing prolonged suffering before the release of death. Anyone who loves animals could not possibly in good conscience leave them to die slowly in pain and misery.
> 
> I absolutely believe vets advise PTS as the most compassionate action to take when there is zero possibility of the animal recovering or having any quality of life.
> 
> To suggest that PTS very sick or badly injured animals is a vet's way of making money is an appalling and disrespectful thing to say.
Click to expand...


----------



## havoc

> Actually, that's made me a bit cross.
> 
> Leaving an animal to die a natural death may be free (convenient, that ), but that doesn't make it the fairest option


Only a bit cross? You're a better person than me


----------



## Guest

Shoshannah said:


> Actually, that's made me a bit cross.
> 
> Leaving an animal to die a natural death may be free (convenient, that ), but that doesn't make it the fairest option. YOU wake up.


It upset me too, because all I can think of is those people too cheap to take their sick or injured animal to the vet even if it's for palliative care and just leave the animal to suffer until the poor thing finally dies (usually in agony). Urhg.... 
Around here, some (fortunately not many) have a practice of dumping sick dogs, usually heartworm since they're too cheap to use preventative. They drive the dog out on some back country road and literally dump the dog out, then leave. It's an absolutely horrible, sick thing to do to a dog. Another excellent example of there being far worse fates for a dog than a humane death  



chillminx said:


> Just to mention, (for the sake of accuracy), the police had in fact attended the premises on another matter. They were investigating a report made by a neighbour of an alleged assault and theft of property.
> 
> The police either wished to interview one of the occupants of the vet's premises, or they were there with a warrant to arrest him. Either way that's how they gained access to the premises.
> 
> Then whilst on the premises the police became concerned about the welfare of the cats and dogs being kept there, and as a result they called on the RSPCA and asked them to take the animals into their care.
> 
> As you rightly say Ouesi, the police wouldn't have taken that action, unless they were genuinely very concerned about the animals.


Thank you for clarifying 
And yes, just confirms what I'm trying to point out, that it's not like the RSPCA had an agenda against this particular vet. They were asked to get involved when the police saw something was amiss. 
For the police to get involved in animal welfare, it usually has to be pretty obvious.


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

Omg look at you all lol.. The police did this.. The police wanted to do that.. This happened.. That happened. The police wouldn't do this unless.. The rspca acted out of that.. None of you have a clue WHAT happened Or Why, you all sound soo silly.


----------



## JANICE199

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Omg look at you all lol.. The police did this.. The police wanted to do that.. This happened.. That happened. The police wouldn't do this unless.. The rspca acted out of that.. None of you have a clue WHAT happened Or Why, you all sound soo silly.


*But you are loving the attention, right!
If anyone is acting silly it is you. You come on here saying you are part of this story, but offer no proof, you think people will just accept your word for it.
No answers still to genuine questions. You delete parts of your posts when questioned. I for one do not believe you are who you claim to be. But hey hoy, i guess we will never know the truth.*


----------



## StormyThai

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Omg look at you all lol.. The police did this.. The police wanted to do that.. This happened.. That happened. The police wouldn't do this unless.. The rspca acted out of that.. None of you have a clue WHAT happened Or Why, you all sound soo silly.


Because obviously none of us here could possibly know how the police handle animal welfare cases could we!
None of us here could possibly be involved with animal welfare cases on a regular basis so have an understanding in how things work now could we?

You have had plenty of chances to answer questions posed to you without jeopardizing any pending court case, but you choose to skirt around them time and time again. Even going to the effort of taking the thread completely off track.

I have said before that I am not a fan of the RSPCA, but I can recognise that they do actually do good in some cases...your views on euthanasia are in a very small minority I am afraid and are verging on breaking the law THAT is why the police stepped in, the fact of the matter is that the RSPCA would not of been there if the police hadn't of contacted them.

If there were no welfare concerns the animals would not have been seized in this case, it really is that simple!

The only one looking silly is the one that avoids any relevant questions at all costs even tho they stated that they would answer all questions asked :skep:


----------



## LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA

I would indeed be VERY silly to answer questions on your say so, thereby (possibly) jeopardising the animals case


----------



## chillminx

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> None of you have a clue WHAT happened Or Why, you all sound soo silly.


My sources were what was reported in the Yorkshire Evening Post, the Lancashire Evening Post, the Doncaster Free Press and no doubt in other newspapers, as well as on local TV news.

If you're saying the news reports were incorrect then instead of scoffing and accusing people of being _*"silly"*_ go ahead and give the correct version of the events. If I were in your shoes I'd want the truth to be known, and would welcome the opportunity to give my side of the story.


----------



## havoc

> I would indeed be VERY silly to answer questions on your say so, thereby (possibly) jeopardising the animals case


This thread isn't about the animals though is it? You've made it about you, whoever you are and you've chosen a weird medium to do so. You came on here with a very long post and were perfectly happy when the only replies seemed sympathetic. Nobody forced you to do so and you have made a number of unsubstantiated claims. You can't then be surprised that your chosen audience asks for clarification and substantiation.


----------



## Rafa

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> I would indeed be VERY silly to answer questions on your say so, thereby (possibly) jeopardising the animals case


If that's the case, then it was VERY silly of you to start this thread in the first place.

I suspect you just wanted to vent and, hopefully, receive support and sympathy.

I have to be honest, I'm mighty glad you're not my vet.


----------



## Sacrechat

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Omg look at you all lol.. The police did this.. The police wanted to do that.. This happened.. That happened. The police wouldn't do this unless.. The rspca acted out of that.. None of you have a clue WHAT happened Or Why, you all sound soo silly.


*Are you sure we are the ones who sound silly? 
*
*Have you honestly taken a good look at yourself? 
*
It's true that we can only base our opinions on what we have read in the newspapers. If what we have read is untrue then perhaps you should be giving serious consideration to suing the newspapers for slander rather than trying to garner sympathy from strangers on a forum.

Quite frankly, the more you write, the less inclined I feel to believe anything you have said.

'The lady doth protest too much'.​
You have clearly tried to divert the blame onto the RSPCA who, if the newspapers are to be believed, only became involved after the police were called to your premises. If this is not true then challenge it in a court of law that is the best way to get your voice heard, not here on a forum.

It seems to me that your 'lol' and somewhat pathetic attempt to mock those who disbelieve your story are the actions of an individual who is floundering to answer the many questions posed. Quite frankly, I find it rather childish.


----------



## Misi

Sweety said:


> I have to be honest, I'm mighty glad you're not my vet.


I think it's her partner who's supposed to be the vet...


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

LIFE NOT EUTHANASIA said:


> Omg look at you all lol.. The police did this.. The police wanted to do that.. This happened.. That happened. The police wouldn't do this unless.. The rspca acted out of that.. None of you have a clue WHAT happened Or Why, you all sound soo silly.


Not as silly as you'll sound when your lawyer questions why you've posted case details all over the internet, love.


----------



## Sacrechat

ROYAL COLLEGE OF VETERINARY SURGEONS V
DR GARY JAMES CASSIUS SAMUEL
CHARGES
That being registered in the Register of veterinary surgeons and whilst practising at Armley
Vets, 56 Town Street, Armley, Leeds LS12 3AA:-
On 22 November 2011 at Cardiff Magistrates Court, having pleaded guilty, you were convicted as
follows:-
(i) that on 10 July 2011 at Corporation Road, Cardiff you used towards Heather Jackson and David Harvey threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to cause those persons to believe that immediate unlawful violence would be used against them by any person, or to provoke the immediate use of unlawful violence by them whereby those persons were likely to believe that such violence would be used, or it was likely that such violence would be provoked, contrary to section 4(1) and (4) of the Public Order Act 1986, for which you were sentenced to imprisonment for 12 weeks suspended for 12 months and 140 hours of unpaid work within the next 12 months;
and
(ii) that on 10 July 2011 at Corporation Road, Cardiff, you stole a camera and memory card, of a value unknown, belonging to Heather Jackson, contrary to section 1(1) and 7 of the Theft Act 1968, for which you were sentenced to imprisonment for 28 days concurrent suspended for 12 months and 140 hours of unpaid work within the next 12 months;
and
(iii) that on 10 July 2011 at Cardiff you assaulted Heather Jackson by beating her, contrary to section 39 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, for which you were sentenced to imprisonment for 28 days concurrent suspended for 12 months and 140 hours of unpaid work within the next 12 months.
and you were made subject to a restraining order to the effect that you must not, until further order, 1) contact Heather Jackson or David Harvey directly or indirectly by any means 2) enter within the curtilage of 9 Corporation Road, Cardiff; and you were ordered to pay compensation in the sum of £75 to Heather Jackson and to pay costs to the Crown Prosecution Service in the sum of £625
AND THAT it is alleged that these convictions (either individually or in combination) render you unfit to practise veterinary surgery.

Link to site: 
https://www.rcvs.org.uk/document-library/samuel-gary-j-c-february-2013-charges/samuel-charges.pdf


----------



## leashedForLife

Sweety said:


> ...
> 
> Strange, though, that you'd say, *"That's why we keep receipts from the pet cremation company"*.
> 
> Why do you feel the need to protect yourself on that score?


That's not "strange", IMO - it's prudent.

I'm a PCA - Personal Care Aide - & a Certified Home-Health Aide [CHHA]. I work in private homes,
& sometimes in facilities - rehab, short-term care, crisis care while someone is healing from surgery.

I keep a detailed LOG, & i keep RECEIPTS for _*every*thing -_ any food, household items, transport such as
a taxi-ride or bus fare, personal care items [disposable briefs, bandages, antiseptics], cleaning products, 
special treats - a meal delivered from a local restaurant, a salon appt.

The log is a legal document, & can be used as evidence in any hearing.
The receipts provide supporting documentation - today we went here, & we did this.

I photograph meals i make for clients; i photograph a healing injury as it improves; i document EVERY
imaginable thing, & some UNimaginable - like the incredibly-filthy tub / shower in one house [used only
by the alcoholic adult-son, & his late-teens son; & they also were responsible for 'cleaning' it, not me].

I know that as a caregiver, I have to be very mindful of liability, & that in the litigious USA, i can be hung
& my livelihood destroyed by someone eager to move blame off their own shoulders, & onto mine.

Do i keep receipts?... U better believe! :yesnod: Every one. :biggrin:
.
.


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## Guest

Are there any news updates on this case?

Im in the process of reading back over the whole thread. LNE has deleted several posts, but reading back through the posts knowing what some of the enclosures looked like (from now deleted posts), it is starting to look a case of way too many animals not being properly cared for


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## Rafa

leashedForLife said:


> That's not "strange", IMO - it's prudent.
> 
> I'm a PCA - Personal Care Aide - & a Certified Home-Health Aide [CHHA]. I work in private homes,
> & sometimes in facilities - rehab, short-term care, crisis care while someone is healing from surgery.
> 
> I keep a detailed LOG, & i keep RECEIPTS for _*every*thing -_ any food, household items, transport such as
> a taxi-ride or bus fare, personal care items [disposable briefs, bandages, antiseptics], cleaning products,
> special treats - a meal delivered from a local restaurant, a salon appt.
> 
> The log is a legal document, & can be used as evidence in any hearing.
> The receipts provide supporting documentation - today we went here, & we did this.
> 
> I photograph meals i make for clients; i photograph a healing injury as it improves; i document EVERY
> imaginable thing, & some UNimaginable - like the incredibly-filthy tub / shower in one house [used only
> by the alcoholic adult-son, & his late-teens son; & they also were responsible for 'cleaning' it, not me].
> 
> I know that as a caregiver, I have to be very mindful of liability, & that in the litigious USA, i can be hung
> & my livelihood destroyed by someone eager to move blame off their own shoulders, & onto mine.
> 
> Do i keep receipts?... U better believe! :yesnod: Every one. :biggrin:
> .
> .


I don't mean it's strange that they would keep those records, rather that she would feel the need to point it out.

My own Vets have never felt the need to mention that.


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## jaycee05

Review made in the last week, by a client,;
Armley vets cost us over £1000,we could not get anyone to answer our call when our dog was ill, so we had to take him to Hospital costing us over £1.500,as he had to stay there for 5 days,when he got bout of the hospital.we asked Gary to reimburse us,but he said he had no money for this,
The hospital said he[the dog] had not been looked after properly by Armley vets,or he would not have to be at the hospital,he was nearly dead
Armley vetspromised us he would look after him properly after this,but when we took the dog back one lunchtime because he was not eating bor drinking for 3 days we thought he would be admitted and put on a drip. instead we were given 2 syringes,1 for food and 1 for water, and told to take him home and force feed him
We tried ,but he would not eat or drink,that same evening he died, he was only 4 years old
I would not recommend anyone taking their pet there
Also the lady vet was very inconsiderate to any emotion being felt by the owners


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## Knightofalbion

I note that the property is a two storey building. For 22 dogs and 8 cats that is going to be very cramped. 
And it being an inner city property, I was just wondering about exercise and toileting facilities. There is a suitable garden/yard at the rear?


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## noushka05

Latest update on this case. Vet & assistant found guilty of all charges! Sentencing next month, lets hope the judge gives them more than the customary 'slap on the wrist' for animal cruelty. Well done to the RSPCA, what would we do without them?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vet-assistant-keep-12-husky-7224425


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## Knightofalbion

Sometimes you just can't find the right words .....


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## chillminx

Thank you @noushka05 for updating us.  I recently wondered what had happened in that case.


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## bingolitle

the story itself is bad enough - did you notice the video links at the bottom? sometimes i would be delighted to be another species!


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## Guest

So was the poster Life Not Euthanasia the vet assistant I wonder?


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## Ceiling Kitty

Well, that's the RSPCA vindicated after all the vitriol directed at them in the first part of this thread.


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## jaycee05

jaycee05 said:


> Review made in the last week, by a client,;
> Armley vets cost us over £1000,we could not get anyone to answer our call when our dog was ill, so we had to take him to Hospital costing us over £1.500,as he had to stay there for 5 days,when he got bout of the hospital.we asked Gary to reimburse us,but he said he had no money for this,
> The hospital said he[the dog] had not been looked after properly by Armley vets,or he would not have to be at the hospital,he was nearly dead
> Armley vetspromised us he would look after him properly after this,but when we took the dog back one lunchtime because he was not eating bor drinking for 3 days we thought he would be admitted and put on a drip. instead we were given 2 syringes,1 for food and 1 for water, and told to take him home and force feed him
> We tried ,but he would not eat or drink,that same evening he died, he was only 4 years old
> I would not recommend anyone taking their pet there
> Also the lady vet was very inconsiderate to any emotion being felt by the owners


I posted on here yesterday the update,but in the dog section, i think all that the assistant posted to defend herself was lies from beginning to end if this client is anything to go by they were definitely dodgy, all those poor dogs living in a cellar, but why? why keep it so quiet that they had all those dogs and cats ? and why keep them in the cellar, 
Poor animals will need some work getting them used to a normal life


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## noushka05

Knightofalbion said:


> Sometimes you just can't find the right words .....


It is a shocking case.



chillminx said:


> Thank you @noushka05 for updating us.  I recently wondered what had happened in that case.


You're welcome CM x Huskies are my breed so I've been taking a particular interest in this case.



bingolitle said:


> the story itself is bad enough - did you notice the video links at the bottom? sometimes i would be delighted to be another species!


thankfully I didn't notice the link. I'm imagining its another horror committed by the hand of man though 



ouesi said:


> So was the poster Life Not Euthanasia the vet assistant I wonder?


Thats certainly the impression I got.



Ceiling Kitty said:


> Well, that's the RSPCA vindicated after all the vitriol directed at them in the first part of this thread.


No wonder they were out to discredit the RSPCA. Its become a common theme amongst animal abusers - smear the RSPCA until they can no longer operate.



jaycee05 said:


> I posted on here yesterday the update,but in the dog section, i think all that the assistant posted to defend herself was lies from beginning to end if this client is anything to go by they were definitely dodgy, all those poor dogs living in a cellar, but why? why keep it so quiet that they had all those dogs and cats ? and why keep them in the cellar,
> Poor animals will need some work getting them used to a normal life


Sorry Jaycee, I didnt see your update.

Goodness knows how people can be so blind to animal suffering. That it was people who's job it is to actually care for animals makes it all the more shocking. Your link to the dog that died is heartbreaking. I hope the judge gives them the maximum punishment - & they go down for this!


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## Knightofalbion

A bit more from BBC Leeds

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-35384848

21 rehomed


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## Argent

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-35561521?SThisFB


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## Knightofalbion

Thanks for the link. Hmm... Are you thinking what I'm thinking?


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## noushka05

That video is shocking. The poor cat on there is little more that a walking skeleton. @Calvine & other members who like to demonise the RSPCA at any given opportunity ought to take a long hard look at that video.


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## Calvine

noushka05 said:


> That video is shocking. The poor cat on there is little more that a walking skeleton. @Calvine & other members who like to demonise the RSPCA at any given opportunity ought to take a long hard look at that video.


Calvine ''and other (_unnamed_) members...''. Well, I know who your ''unnamed members'' are, but I personally would not think to name them. _You yourself_ ought to take a ''long hard look'' (unquote) at the meaning of the word ''forum''. A forum is a meeting place (or medium) where people are free to state their personal opinions, ie to debate and to discuss various issues. Yes, I am well aware that there are many other forum members who agree with_ me_ re the rspca, and I assume, many who also agree with _your _opinions. This is what a forum is for...what a forum is about. Certainly, as an intelligent and well-educated person I DO NOT need your advice regarding what I should be reading on the forum, and your suggestion that I need your help in that respect is arrogant and overbearing.
There was a time when I used to do fund-raising for the rspca for several years...now I prefer to foster for, and assist, a small local charity whose (limited) funds, in my opinion, are never ever wasted and are used far more appropriately.


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