# So if it's not Dominance, what is it?



## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Good morning everyone,

...I know that dreaded "D" word again, but I was just thinking (it does happen sometimes) last night about incidents and situations that have arisen in the dog park, home etc that have resulted in a fight or someone telling me "That's a dominance thing" so while the little cogs in my head were turning, I thought I'd ask you guys what does it really mean when these things happen?

I don't mean to stir up trouble or heated-nasty debates, but in reccent light of what I've been taught and told, I am genuinely curious and interested to see what you guys make of these situations..

*The dominant male?*
1) In our local park we have a Lab x Collie who for whatever reason (appears) to not like other male dogs. He first stalks them then approaches very fast and greets them with all hackles up, body posture held very high, tail high and stiff, ears pinned back and a hard glare. He then attacks them, even if they submit. He still has his bits too.

*I'm the boss! No you're not! I am!*
I was told that when a dog is trying to be dominant they will put their head on the shoulders of the dog they are trying to dominate. Recently Dottie encountered another J.R (who I later found out is known for biting dogs and people) they have met before when I first got Dottie and they scrapped then. Anyway when they met the other day, Dottie put her head on his shoulders and he tried to do the same back, they both went very stiff and then scrapped. I had Dottie on a training line and muzzled and proceeded to walk her away.

*Humping*
Dottie used to hump my friends dog (A little J.R bitch mounting a Mastiff X Dogue de bordeaux, quite the sight) and my Millan loving friend would say "Thats bad, look shes trying to dominate him, get her off". What caused her to hump him? Dottie and Charlie also hump each other.

*"She's trying to control everything!"*
When dogs play rough down the park and get a bit noisy, Dottie runs around them and starts barking and looks as though she wants to fight. One time a neighbour was playing with her dog (another JR) and they were playing nosily, Dottie started barking at them and then went to attack my neighbours dog. Everyone was like "She cant let any other dogs have fun can she?". I (being sucked into the dominance theory) believed she was trying to control the game and got jealous (although even for me at the time, that seemed a bit far fetched)

*"She think she's in charge of you, don't let her do that!"*
Last summer another friend (who is a Millan worshipper) told me not to let Dottie jump onto my lap when she wants a cuddle as it was...well you know the word. The dog behaviourist I paid to come and see to my dogs asked me do I let the dogs on my lap? I said yes, (especially in the winter we'd all snuggle by the heater on one big chair together after our walk!) and she said it had to stop! I was shocked and even though I did at the time believe in the "D" word, I soon let them up on my lap. 
I know there was just a post put up about this so I will refer to there to see what has been said.

There have been several incidents when my friend has told me to "body slam" or "Alpha roll" my dog when they have been "naughty". One time I was stroking Dotties ears, (they had cuts on the end from her trying to rub her muzzle off.) I stroked her and she growled at me, my friend said "Tell her off! Slam her!" I said "I forgot her ears are sore at the ends" to which my friend replied "It doesn't matter! You should be able to do what you want to her without being bitten"

This way of thinking scares me and I now see how dangerous all this "D" theory can be. What makes me mad too, is when my friend tells me Dottie SHOULD be good with children, SHOULD allow them to try and touch her on the head without trying to bite them. She growls at them and I ALWAYS tell them "Don't come near her, she's very scared of people" the growl was a warning but I'm told to punish her for it!

Or what else makes me mad (and I am ending on this note, if not I will go off on one) when parents let their children run up to the dogs and stick their hands in their face, the dog growls and the parents say "Bloody horrible dog! She's just a child!"...How the hell is a dog meant to know?! Makes me so mad.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing what you guys think/have to say about these situations,

Candice xx


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## Pawsitive (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm just a layman but my tuppence worth, based on personal experience and stuff that the real experts have given us to read, are:

1 - The most unpredictable of our dogs is one who always does the stiff body language, ears back, glare etc. In my humble opinion, he is an anxious dog who finds it difficult to communicate properly with other dogs and therefore reacts 'aggressively'. He has difficulties playing and interacting with other dogs which I think come from puppyhood - he had been shut in a kitchen with no contact from the outside world, including other dogs, during the first few weeks of going to a new home.

As the article that LFL posted about Sue Ailsby's views on dominance, a truly 'dominant' dog wouldn't need to resort to physical fights.

2 - I have seen dogs do this in play initially. I think I would try to interpret the rest of the body language first and intervene before it escalated. Sometimes it may be as simple as the dog not liking his personal space invaded, or a dog with rude manners not communicating with or approaching the other dog in a nice doggy way - a snap or scrap doesn't necessarily mean dominance. It often means back off or stop being rude (humanising I know but you get the idea.)

3 - ha well apart from being hormonally motivated, I've also seen over excited dogs having a jolly good time!  Personally, it's one of the reasons I'm pro neutering / spaying as I think it can help diminish the need for the behaviour (which isn't fair to the dog if we aren't allowing him to procreate!) although it doesn't work in all cases.

4 - My collie and our staff x mastiff x gsd can be a bit similar - my collie gets overexcited, starts herding and barking his head off and the gsd x is the one I mentioned earlier - he doesn't know how to join in. I don't think it's dominance, in fact I'm more inclined to think its insecurity when he doesn't really know how to react to it. I've also seen overexcited dogs escalate from play into scraps (and also if the play gets a bit unbalanced) so I always advise intervening when it gets toooo rough and giving the dogs a bit of a time out.

5 - nope she just wants a cuddle!! Mine are the same, especially my girl. A vet once told a friend that her lab was dominant because he sat on her foot - he was one of the softest most 'submissive' dogs I've met and clearly needed reassurance (ie contact with her) in an unfamiliar environment (vet surgery).

But hey, whaddoiknow?, the alpha rolling 'experts' would undoubtedly argue that I'm completely wrong


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Any chance you could ditch all these "friends" who think the Dog Abuser knows what he is doing? If you touched my sore ears I would growl at you too. You should never punish a dog for growling, or the next time he will just forget the warning and bite.

There are lots of reasons why dogs behave as they do, sometimes they do give out dominant signs _to other dogs_ but not to humans. And as said, a truly dominant dog has no need of violence, it is all there in his body language.

I have had people say "its a dominance thing" when their dog has tried to jump on mine, but that is rubbish. Dogs hump each other for all sorts of reasons, usually not sexual either. They very often do it to calm themselves. I wouldn't allow it, because I think it could injure the other dog, especially if mine try to do it as all the other dogs are much smaller!

You could try giving them one or two of Ian Dunbar's books to read, but I doubt it would help. He's not a tv star so he can't be right!

If there is that collie cross you were saying who keeps attacking male dogs, you should tell the owner to keep him on a lead.

Nobody should approach a dog over its head. That is really as stupid as going up behind a horse that doesn't know you are there! If you know the dog well and know there will be no reaction, fine, but a strange dog who may have been ill treated in the past? Damned stupid thing to do.

As to your "behaviourist" she obviously doesn't know what she is talking about. Best place for a dog is on your lap; even my great bears get their front halves on my lap. How else are they going to have a cuddle?

You are doing fine, ignore the idiots and tell them firmly that you will train and handle your dog _your_ way, thanks very much.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> *The dominant male?*
> 1) In our local park we have a Lab x Collie who for whatever reason (appears) to not like other male dogs.
> He first stalks them then approaches very fast & greets... with all hackles up, body posture held very high, tail high & stiff,
> ears pinned back and a hard glare. He then attacks them, even if they submit. He still has his bits too.


a rude intact-male with no social skills?  i mean, _*really...*_

lots of intact-males are fine around other males, intact or neutered; show-dogs or hunt-trial contenders are often 
around other intact-males, & most are very tolerant; they may not kiss & play, but they sure don't quarrel.

he also sounds a bit worried - if he were the confident, take-charge type, he would not NEED to rush over & threaten. 
they would come to him, & he would stand his ground, be polite, & say hi - not act like the schoolyard bully. :nonod:

i think he had one or more bad-experiences in his lifetime, & is determined to get them before they get him - 
the best defense is a good offense, etc. Shame; it would be an unhappy life, always worried about a sneak attack 
and being sure to always get one's kicks in first, before being hit.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

I have a bitch who acts like this. She runs up to other dogs, upright, tail up, ears back, and arches her neck over them. This dog was kept with its parents til she was 12 weeks and has lived with other dogs all her life. She has never been shut away yet she still hasn't learned social skills? Why is that?


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## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

I haven't a clue because I'm no expert. I'm here to learn, but my dog barks wildly around my cats if they decide to have a scrap. It's like she doesn't want them to fight so she runs at them and gives them a good telling off. She never bites just barks furiously at them. In a way it's good because my cats rarely fight now and when they do start, it is short-lived because the dog puts a stop to it.

My dog also sits in my lap and sometimes wraps her body around my head when I'm lying down and nuzzles my hair. I don't know if it's dominance or not but it feels nice when she's doing it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> *I'm the boss!... No, you're not - I am!*
> I was told that when a dog [tries] to be dominant, they'll put their head on the shoulders of the dog they're trying
> to dominate. Recently Dottie encountered another JRT [later found this dog is known for biting dogs & ppl],
> they've met before when I first got Dottie &... scrapped then.
> ...


i know this already happened, so past history  but for future ref, *if there's a dog she's already scuffled with, 
for pity's sake avoid them - ESPECIALLY nose-to-nose, on leash!*

nose-to-nose is always fraught, & a leash only adds more risk - it inhibits free movement, the owners tend to pull back 
& the dog of course pulls forward [changing posture & emotional content for the viewing dog], & generally it ends in tears.

about the head-over posture: 
it is sometimes called T-position or standing-over; here is an article - 
http://www.fordog.org/Articles/Role_of_Play_Behavior.pdf

Brenda Aloff is a colleague; this is from her book, _Aggression in Dogs_, the chapter is about play.

more about head-over: 
Dog Behavior Blog: Dogs Playing Together: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

it's listed under _"rude & totally inapropos, always intervene."_ 
which certainly sums that up.  they are measuring one another, possibly for a coffin. INTERVENE.

BTW - 
also, no muzzled dog should be introduced to any dog who is not muzzled, except ALONE in a fenced area, 
with the free-faced dog KNOWN to be exceptionally dog-savvy & extremely tolerant. 
the muzzled dog is entirely defenseless - and knows it; this means s/he will be worse than normal, paranoid, 
hypervigilant, flop-sweat anxious & tense - *not a good time to meet the neighbors.* :nonod: 
muzzled dogs are entirely dependent on us to be protected from other dogs.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> *The dominant male?*
> 1) In our local park we have a Lab x Collie who for whatever reason (appears) to not like other male dogs. He first stalks them then approaches very fast and greets them with all hackles up, body posture held very high, tail high and stiff, ears pinned back and a hard glare. He then attacks them, even if they submit. He still has his bits too.


As others have said, this is most probably just an insecure, intact male who doesn't know how to communicate properly. From your body language description, he sounds fearful of other dogs and feels threatened when they are about. His behaviour is also being reinforced as whenever he does this, the other dogs move away! Job done from his perspective...



> *I'm the boss! No you're not! I am!*
> I was told that when a dog is trying to be dominant they will put their head on the shoulders of the dog they are trying to dominate. Recently Dottie encountered another J.R (who I later found out is known for biting dogs and people) they have met before when I first got Dottie and they scrapped then. Anyway when they met the other day, Dottie put her head on his shoulders and he tried to do the same back, they both went very stiff and then scrapped. I had Dottie on a training line and muzzled and proceeded to walk her away.


Again, this is a sign of insecurity to me. Both dogs are insecure upon meeting and are trying to 'work each other out', but doing it rudely.



> *Humping*
> Dottie used to hump my friends dog (A little J.R bitch mounting a Mastiff X Dogue de bordeaux, quite the sight) and my Millan loving friend would say "Thats bad, look shes trying to dominate him, get her off". What caused her to hump him? Dottie and Charlie also hump each other.


Humping is a Fixed or Modal Action Pattern. An innate behaviour that dogs 'practise', albeit automatically and not 'consciously' as such. Dogs do this in play and at times of over-arousal (which play generally is). It can be used as a way of calming a dog down...for example, a dog that I walked at a rescue centre would hump me as soon as we exited the kennel because he had 20 other dogs barking in his face and stressing him out, and also immediately after meeting other dogs in the park, as he was over-aroused and a little under-stimulated.



> *"She's trying to control everything!"*
> When dogs play rough down the park and get a bit noisy, Dottie runs around them and starts barking and looks as though she wants to fight. One time a neighbour was playing with her dog (another JR) and they were playing nosily, Dottie started barking at them and then went to attack my neighbours dog. Everyone was like "She cant let any other dogs have fun can she?". I (being sucked into the dominance theory) believed she was trying to control the game and got jealous (although even for me at the time, that seemed a bit far fetched)


This is frustration, IMO. She's not being jealous, but is becoming stressed out by all the activity, which may be unnerving her and getting her anxiety up. Dotties ability to handle these situations seems troublesome. Remember, over-arousal is a scale...everything from happiness and excitement on the low-level to frustration higher up, then aggression at the height of the scale. A dog that can't handle high levels of frustration can easily become 'aggressive' or 'reactive' in certain situations. Barrier frustration/aggression is a common example.



> *"She think she's in charge of you, don't let her do that!"*
> Last summer another friend (who is a Millan worshipper) told me not to let Dottie jump onto my lap when she wants a cuddle as it was...well you know the word. The dog behaviourist I paid to come and see to my dogs asked me do I let the dogs on my lap? I said yes, (especially in the winter we'd all snuggle by the heater on one big chair together after our walk!) and she said it had to stop! I was shocked and even though I did at the time believe in the "D" word, I soon let them up on my lap.
> I know there was just a post put up about this so I will refer to there to see what has been said.


Dogs sitting on humans for cuddles is in no way about the dog taking charge of you or physically dominating you. Dogs are social animals but people forget this and read way too much into certain situations. :nonod:



> There have been several incidents when my friend has told me to "body slam" or "Alpha roll" my dog when they have been "naughty". One time I was stroking Dotties ears, (they had cuts on the end from her trying to rub her muzzle off.) I stroked her and she growled at me, my friend said "Tell her off! Slam her!" I said "I forgot her ears are sore at the ends" to which my friend replied "It doesn't matter! You should be able to do what you want to her without being bitten"


Never do this. Wolves willingly roll over on their backs to defer to other individuals, showing their vital parts. They do NOT physically Alpha roll each other, as if they did, they would be aiming to kill the other individual. This maneuver in the dog training world has caused many bites to trainers and owners...or dogs just go into shut down or 'learned helplessness' (Seligman, 1965), where they freeze up and cease to learn.



> This way of thinking scares me and I now see how dangerous all this "D" theory can be. What makes me mad too, is when my friend tells me Dottie SHOULD be good with children, SHOULD allow them to try and touch her on the head without trying to bite them. She growls at them and I ALWAYS tell them "Don't come near her, she's very scared of people" the growl was a warning but I'm told to punish her for it!


Poor dog. This is worrying and should be stopped immediately. Dogs may never like certain things, but we have to try and make them tolerate them. However, this will do nothing but set the dog back. Good luck!

[/QUOTE]


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> about the head-over posture:
> it is sometimes called T-position or standing-over; here is an article -
> http://www.fordog.org/Articles/Role_of_Play_Behavior.pdf


This says my bitch is playing - it makes sense because she will often play bow after rushing over with all the wrong signals.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> I have a bitch who acts like this. She runs up to other dogs, upright, tail up, ears back, and arches her neck over them. This dog was kept with its parents til she was 12 weeks and has lived with other dogs all her life. She has never been shut away yet she still hasn't learned social skills? Why is that?


My dog Roxy (GSD) used to do this alot when we foirst got her, she would then stiffen & attck the other dog. Nothing serious (looked far worse), it always when she was on the lead & another dog came over to her, even really friendly.

I think she didn;t know what to do & although was excited (she gets hyper when she sees other dogs) this did escalate at times & we had to warn people not to let their dogs come over to her. She's alot better off the lead - maye because she feels less vunerable with no restraint?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> *Humping*
> Dottie used to hump my friends dog (A little JRT-bitch mounting a Mastiff X Dogue de bordeaux, quite the sight)
> & my Millan-loving friend would say "Thats bad, look she's trying to dominate him, get her off".
> What caused her to hump him?
> Dottie and Charlie also hump each other.


if i asked U to name every possible reason that humans have sex, how many would there be? :huh: well, let's see... 
- procreate 
- recreate 
- bored 
- vicious emotional injury to a 3rd-party 
- earn $$ 
- win an ally; solicit support 
- make a friend; emotional connection 
- make an enemy angry or unhappy 
- physical satisfaction 
- random impulse 
- why not?... 
- etcetera

there can be literally as many answers as there are persons involved, as ONE person of a couple may have entirely 
different motives from their partner's; classically, women have sex to make a connection, men for physical satisfaction. 
to say this causes resentments & misunderstandings is a huge, huge understatement.

dogs hump for all sorts of reasons, from displacement behavior to being uncertain about what to do in the circs. 
they may be feeling randy, bored, cranky, p*ssed-off, p*ssed-on, anxious, hyperexcited, or confused. 
they might be acting bossy, or flirting - or making a declaration: _"s/he's MINE..."_

one common version here? *the typical shelter-dog around here is 9-to-12-MO, intact & male.* 
when U get them out of the shelter-run to take them for a leashed walk, or to the outdoor pen on leash, 
they have NO IDEA what to do with themselves; they are screamingly-excited, they've been scared & bored, 
the shelter is frustrating & noisy, the other dogs are all barking... so *they clasp Ur leg & start humping.* :nonod: 
it's pretty pathetic, really - they're helplessly untrained & lost, have no idea what to do, & try to cope - 
with no skills for coping. Sad.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

My bitch doesn't attack, but if they have a go at her for her inappropriate signals, she won't back down. If they are nice, she play bows. We always thought it was 'dominance', and that she was showing the other dog her dominance. If it wasn't dominant, she would play bow with it. Now we can't use that word, I just say she's not nasty but not very polite.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> *"She's trying to control everything!"*
> When dogs play rough down the park & get a bit noisy, Dottie runs around them & starts barking - looks as though
> she wants to fight. Once a neighbour was playing with her JRT... noisily, Dottie [barked] at them, then [tried]
> to attack my neighbours dog.
> ...


eh - Could be a fun-police behavior, but she could just as easily be over-aroused & not know what to do 
with all that excitement; *re-direction* is one helluva good way to get bitten... we do X & excite the dog, 
they cannot get at their intended target & tag us, since we're within reach... *'Yee-OWCHH!...' * :incazzato:

herding-breeds & their mixes, OTOH, are extremely-prone to the Fun-Police thing. 
controlling & directing is part of their nature; interrupting this is imperative, to avoid conflict.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

The dominant male?
1) In our local park we have a Lab x Collie who for whatever reason (appears) to not like other male dogs. He first stalks them then approaches very fast and greets them with all hackles up, body posture held very high, tail high and stiff, ears pinned back and a hard glare. He then attacks them, even if they submit. He still has his bits too.

Thats confined interdog behaviours, the displayed behaviour is typical of territorial claiming by a dominant dog. 

I'm the boss! No you're not! I am!
I was told that when a dog is trying to be dominant they will put their head on the shoulders of the dog they are trying to dominate. Recently Dottie encountered another J.R (who I later found out is known for biting dogs and people) they have met before when I first got Dottie and they scrapped then. Anyway when they met the other day, Dottie put her head on his shoulders and he tried to do the same back, they both went very stiff and then scrapped. I had Dottie on a training line and muzzled and proceeded to walk her away.

I would call that dominance & territorial aggression by both dogs but only between those 2 dogs, that does not mean either would be dominant with dogs in a similar situation.

Humping
Dottie used to hump my friends dog (A little J.R bitch mounting a Mastiff X Dogue de bordeaux, quite the sight) and my Millan loving friend would say "Thats bad, look shes trying to dominate him, get her off". What caused her to hump him? Dottie and Charlie also hump each other.

Unsolicited humping can be dominance but not necessarily so, some of them can be bi-sexual, cross species rapists maybe those dogs have dominance mixed with somethings else, maybe not but it does not seem to be straight forward reproductivebehaviour. I dont have an opinion on that.

"She's trying to control everything!"
When dogs play rough down the park and get a bit noisy, Dottie runs around them and starts barking and looks as though she wants to fight. One time a neighbour was playing with her dog (another JR) and they were playing nosily, Dottie started barking at them and then went to attack my neighbours dog. Everyone was like "She cant let any other dogs have fun can she?". I (being sucked into the dominance theory) believed she was trying to control the game and got jealous (although even for me at the time, that seemed a bit far fetched)

In that situation a dominant dog with courage and a fighting disposition will go straight in fighting with little more that deep throated growling, if its a group of dogs it go straight for the most dominant.

No opinion on what you describe, it might be dominance but mixed with a fear of fighting or it might be non of those things.

"She think she's in charge of you, don't let her do that!"
Last summer another friend (who is a Millan worshipper) told me not to let Dottie jump onto my lap when she wants a cuddle as it was...well you know the word. The dog behaviourist I paid to come and see to my dogs asked me do I let the dogs on my lap? I said yes, (especially in the winter we'd all snuggle by the heater on one big chair together after our walk!) and she said it had to stop! I was shocked and even though I did at the time believe in the "D" word, I soon let them up on my lap. 
I know there was just a post put up about this so I will refer to there to see what has been said.

Id ask for my money back. If your dog gets on your lap bed & refuses to budge to a known command that really means it perceives you as lower ranking than itself, it does not mean it is a dominant dog


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> *"She thinks she's in charge... don't let her do that!"*
> ...another friend (& Millan worshipper) told me not to let Dottie jump onto my lap when she wants a cuddle as it's... well...
> The behaviourist I paid to come & see to my dogs asked me do I let the dogs on my lap?
> I said yes, especially in the winter - we'd all snuggle by the heater on one big chair together after our walk! -
> and she said it had to stop! I was shocked... tho I did at the time believe in the "D" word, I soon let them up on my lap.


dogs, especially small dogs who fit there conveniently, LIKE laps.  who wouldn't? 
warm, cushy yet resilient, hands are nearby for scratching itchies & rubbing tummies, there might be a chance 
for a snack to share... Yum!... Why not?

kids like laps, until they're double-digits lots of kids like to sit on us, or lie by us on the sofa while watching telly; 
young kids find the physical closeness reassuring, especially if they've had a fright or don't feel very good.

we like stroking dogs - they FEEL good, warm furry or slick bodies with appealing faces; they like attention, 
we like giving attention, it's a match that satisfies both species. they make us laugh, they commiserate on bad days, 
the dog WILL cuddle with us when we have a ferocious cold, look like Death & feel worse, & are hawking, blowing 
& wheezing, while whining - our spouse or kids may flee, the dog will come & be sympathetic.


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

If I ask you to defer to me am - what would you do?

If I expect you to defer to me, am I your leader - what would you do?

If I demand you defer to me, am I being dominant - if so what would you do?

Most people would go with the expected response, but occasionally others don't agree and will plainly challenge your expectations. So without applying anthropomorphism to the debate, cannot dogs with their propensity to abiding by social niceties have the same, albeit physical reactions to events?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

to the doctor or other specialist we consult.

to the parent, the employer, the union-rep, the sous-chef, the shift-manager, the club-prez...

to our friend, our spouse, our relative, child, _____ - when they have wishes that conflict with ours, we may defer 
to make the other person happy.

deference can be situational [we defer to the security folks at the airport], positional [emp re boss], age [parent : kid], 
or negotiated [it's my turn to choose the restaurant...].

humans, just like dogs, frequently *negotiate* & defer.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Dogs just go with the flow............why not, it suits them


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> There have been several incidents when my friend has told me to "body slam" or "Alpha roll" my dog when
> they've been "naughty". ...I was stroking Dotties ears, they had cuts on the end from her trying to rub her muzzle off.
> I stroked her & she growled at me, my friend said "Tell her off! Slam her!" I said "I forgot her ears are sore at the ends",
> to which my friend replied, "It doesn't matter! You should be able to do what you want to her, without being bitten."


sadly, Ur friend is a delusional numpty. :nonod: IMO, of course.

dogs have to have a way to tell us, _i'm getting seriously upset, here...'_, without biting. 
they have loads of more subtle signals, but a growl is a very-clear one that is unmistakable: the dog is really worried, 
it can be pain [as here], looming over [threatening body-language, it makes dogs defensive], proximity to strangers - 
whatever it is, *the dog is increasingly anxious, can't get out of the situation, & wants distance.* 
the whole message is, _'please *stop* what U're doing & give me some space, i can't cope.'_

dogs can't send text-messages, phone, e-mail or speak accentless modern English; they freeze, go whale-eyed, 
duck, flinch, cringe & close their eyes... *& we keep coming.* by the time the dog gets to "growl", 
they're pretty desperate.  *growls IMO & IME are last-chance, desperate attempts to avoid violence - * 
they should be heeded, & never, ever, ever punished.

i literally apologize to a dog who growls at me - it rarely happens, as i usually get the earlier messages, 
& the dog does not 'need' to growl - as i already stopped what i was doing before they get that worried. 
but some dogs who've been punished for growling give very few signals, THEIR growls are not prefaced 
by a series of lower-level alarms; by the time they finally overcome their inhibitions against growling, 
they're pretty frantic. :nonod: those are the dogs that will probably give me my first serious bite.

& it's not the dog's fault - it's the fault of the *&$#@%!* human, who punished the dog in the past for growling. 
growls are communication - nothing more; they should be heeded immediately, & never ever punished.

Akitas, Chows, Tosas, Shibas & other Asian breeds get in trouble - BECAUSE they often do not growl.  
they freeze - which many people entirely ignore, they just keep right on doing what they're doing, & _Wham!_ 
then the groomer, the vet-tech, the oblivious neighbor who insisted on petting the leashed dog is mad... 
but the dog did try to tell them they were not comfortable, the humans just did not pay attention.

i strongly disagree when anyone says that _'no dog should ever bite, under any circumstances.'_ 
it's pure bull; a dog-bite can be anything from an air-snap to a full-mouth mauling grip, which removes flesh. 
U cannot lump them all together as one incident - they cover the gamut from mild grump to major assault, & motive 
is another confounding factor: anyone who insists on handling a dog who's in severe pain is a damfool if they don't 
first muzzle the dog! :incazzato: that includes VETS - they don't get a free pass cuz they wear stethoscopes. 

plus, there are *justified bites* - the dog has a very good reason to bite, does so, & is within their rights. 
pain; teasing; home-defense; bitch's defense of their pups; and more, are grounds for justified bites.

dogs who bite on minimal provocation are usually terrified - or startled, but even then, most dogs inhibit their bite, 
AKA pull the punch. It's rare that a dog who's ONLY startled delivers a serious injury; puncture yes, multiple punctures 
with bruising, no.

growls are good; they prevent us from stoopidly forcing a dog to bite, but only if we listen & heed them.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

No such thing as a dog that doesn't bite. Any dog can be forced into a situation where they have no other option. You would have had to try very hard indeed to get my old Dobie to bite, but I'm sure even she had a breaking point. Same as I always cringe when I hear people say "my horse doesn't kick" ALL horses kick in the right (or wrong if you like) circumstances.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

My Joshua, who is the sweetest dog, will have your hand off if you go under his tail! He won't growl, just sort of turn and snap the air. If you carried on, he would most definitely bite. The reason is he is frightened of anyone going under his tail. If he were to bite, he would, as Terry says, have a good reason.

If one of my dogs were to bite, I would want to know why first and foremost. I don't understand people who say they won't give a dog a second chance; if he bites, that's it! He's a dog for God's sake. If a normal placid dog suddenly bites, he probably has a very good reason.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Hey everyone!

Great replies! I really love to hear all your opinions and thoughts on this. 
It makes a lot of sense. All that time before where I had it pounded into my head "its dominance this....its dominance that" its great to hear some well thought out feedback.

A dog is well within its right to growl at a human if that human is disrespecting the dog and not realising...or should I say not caring for how the dog is feeling. You dont need to be a dog expert to know that a growl from a dog is a clear "back off" sign.

I avoid taking my dogs round to her house any more as the Alpha Rolls etc are so dangerous and damaging.

Perfect example:
I used to go see said friends on a daily basis last summer (lets call them X and Y) X has the rescued Mastiff. Both X and Y are major Millan worshippers, Y worked with X and her dog (her "experience" is that she's had "dogs all her life" I know, I know...) so anyway, Y tells X after "studying" her dog and training him in her Millan-based ways, hes a dominant aggressive dog and you need to assert yourself as the Pack Leader.

A nasty incident later and X calls in an actual *qualified* dog trainer and tells her, he's not dominant aggressive he's actual extremely insecure and unsure of himself due to his appalling start in live.

Y cannot apologies enough to X and is almost in tears about it. A VERY dangerous situation and I now see how these shows can be very dangerous. I don't even want to think of what could have happened if X carried on under Y's opinion.

It's *SO* refreshing and brilliant to hear all this feedback saying what I had thought all along, but was always told is wrong. I'm so much happier now knowing that my dog doesnt want to take over the world! She just wants to be happy, she doesnt enjoy getting into fights, she just is scared. I just wish I had found this site this time last year and saved myself a lot of unwanted stress and upset and anger over all this P.L BS.

*rant over*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

If your friend has had dogs all her life, one would assume that was pre-Dog Abuser on TV, before she ever heard of an Alpha Roll or a Pack Leader. I bet those dogs back then were far better behaved.

A lot of so-called trainers, who advertise and take money have no experience other than watching Cesar Millan. I wish they'd try watching Victoria Stilwell instead, but even then they only show the success stories. At least she won't have alpha rolls, or shock collars or anything else of that nature.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> It's *SO* refreshing & brilliant to hear all this feedback, saying what I'd thought all along, but was always told
> is wrong. I'm so much happier now, knowing that *my dog doesn't want to take over the world!
> She just wants to be happy, she doesnt enjoy getting into fights, she just is scared.*


_/\_ what she said... _/\_ :thumbup: yes - that sums it up. :001_smile: 


Pupcakes said:


> I just wish I'd found this site this time last year, & saved myself a lot of unwanted stress
> & upset & anger over all this...


hey, when we know better, we do better - the dog will forgive U. :yesnod: the harder task is forgiving ourselves, 
but don't try to 'make up for it' - dogs live in the now, even tho their behavior is affected by past experience.

U can start over at any time, & re-teach behaviors of many years duration - dogs are amazingly resilient.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Human beings seem to be obsessed with the word 'Dominance'.  It so often used to describe behaviour that dog owners do not understand but they have to stick some sort of label on! Describing a dog as 'dominant' also shifts the blame onto the dog in a way and owners are then encouraged to behave like strict schoolteachers with their animals, expecting their dogs to turn into the ultra obedient automatons they assume they should be in order to be 'submissive' to them and therefore controllable! :nonod:

It's such a shame as so many people miss out on so much (and screw up dogs) until they take off the blinkers and look at the bigger picture instead.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Human beings seem to be obsessed with the word 'Dominance'.  It so often used to describe behaviour that dog owners do not understand but they have to stick some sort of label on! Describing a dog as 'dominant' also shifts the blame onto the dog in a way and owners are then encouraged to behave like strict schoolteachers with their animals, expecting their dogs to turn into the ultra obedient automatons they assume they should be in order to be 'submissive' to them and therefore controllable!


Very well said!


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

CarolineH said:


> Human beings seem to be obsessed with the word 'Dominance'.  It so often used to describe behaviour that dog owners do not understand but they have to stick some sort of label on! Describing a dog as 'dominant' also shifts the blame onto the dog in a way and owners are then encouraged to behave like strict schoolteachers with their animals, expecting their dogs to turn into the ultra obedient automatons they assume they should be in order to be 'submissive' to them and therefore controllable! :nonod:
> 
> It's such a shame as so many people miss out on so much (and screw up dogs) until they take off the blinkers and look at the bigger picture instead.


That's not what the so called 'dog walker/trainer' said in central London today. When on a visit my entire male decided to hump a husky/malamute/something else cross that was neutered - no doubt mine meant it, never done it that strongly before, thankfully in view of the children the 'lipstick' didn't appear.

This 'overpowering' behaviour on my dogs behaviour was employed at every opportunity (three times), in the past it's only occurred once or twice and I've always been able to stop it by command -it was the intensity of my dogs 'need' to hump this neutered male that drew tears to my eyes.

What was that about then if not 'dominance' - unless neutering the other male had turned it 'female'.

Before you ask, my dog was not uncomfortable in the presence of others, it focussed solely on 'the one', and was recalled with a tennis ball ... eventually

BTW junior was oblivious, but engaged in attempting play with this dog.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> That's not what the so called 'dog walker/trainer' said in central London today.
> ...on a visit my entire male decided to hump a husky x malamute x something else cross that was neutered -
> no doubt mine meant it, never done it that strongly before, thankfully in view of the children the 'lipstick' didn't appear.
> 
> ...


were U crying with joy, embarrassment, or laughing hysterically? :huh: inquiring minds...

* UTIs will stimulate intense humping of either male or female dogs, intact or desexed, of any age. 
BTW i am referring to the humpee having the UTI - the hump*er* is not the urinary-sufferer.

* as above - without seeing the events, & even WITH seeing the events & the precursors, & the subsequent behaviors, 
we cannot warranty that we've divined *the* absolute, accurate reason for the behavior.

* did ya get video? before, during, after? 
if not, without an ethogram of the actions of all the dogs, a Ouija-board is just as good as anything for asking 'why' 
& expecting an absolutely-certain answer.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Sometimes (unfortunately!) some neutered males smell 'interesting' to other male dogs.  Occasionally it is due to full anal glands (so some people say anyway!) but the exact reason is, as far as I know, not known. It can usually be managed by using a 'bitch spray' (anti-mate?) or a dab of citronella on the neutered dogs back end to put off unwanted suitors!


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> That's not what the so called 'dog walker/trainer' said in central London today. When on a visit my entire male decided to hump a husky/malamute/something else cross that was neutered - no doubt mine meant it, never done it that strongly before, thankfully in view of the children the 'lipstick' didn't appear.
> 
> This 'overpowering' behaviour on my dogs behaviour was employed at every opportunity (three times), in the past it's only occurred once or twice and I've always been able to stop it by command -it was the intensity of my dogs 'need' to hump this neutered male that drew tears to my eyes.
> 
> ...


Whatever the reason (and their could be many- mostly to do with over-arousal in a over-stimulating environment. Was there anything extra-novel about the situation?) it cannot be described as dominance, by the very definition and intended-usage of the word:

1) Dominance is a aspect of relationships in pre-formed hierarchies. You either have dominance or you do not (you are the parent or not)...canids do not fight for dominance EDIT: unless placed in artificial circumstances, e.g. the early studies on captive wolf populations in limited space, unrelated members, clumped and high-valued resources

2) Dominance is over resources. It is not about physically dominating (in the general sense of the term- bullying, beating up on) another dog. It's about controlling equally valued, equally pursued resources, being controlled by body postures and vocalisations e.g. at wolf meal time, the breeding pairs nearly always eat first due to their more dominant position in the hierarchy

In your humping scenario, there was no equally valued resource, there was no consistent relationship between the two dogs (not that I can infer anyway) and there was no hierarchy in place.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Lets face it...we'd all be humping if we didn't have limiters in place. Dogs hump, because they can. Simple. He may do it today and then never do it again for months/years. Is the dog humping everything in sight? No. then dunna worry about it. You called it off, it obeyed. Hey presto. 99% of the time the dog is obviously using self control around other dogs. 

The other dog might have been inviting the advance :O)


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

grandad said:


> Lets face it...we'd all be humping if we didn't have limiters in place. Dogs hump, because they can. Simple. He may do it today and then never do it again for months/years. Is the dog humping everything in sight? No. then dunna worry about it. You called it off, it obeyed. Hey presto. 99% of the time the dog is obviously using self control around other dogs.
> 
> *The other dog might have been inviting the advance* :O)


Yep, unless another dog has an adverse reaction to it, we have to presume that it has no objections.

Humans hate dogs humping each other and immediately have to stop it to save face. But a lot of the time, that's not what the dogs think!


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

No, no videos (sure there's nothing dodgy about posting humping dogs videos )

No issues with the environment (third pee break in same enclosed green square)

Other dog didn't snap or lash out, just tried to 'shrug' him off (failed miserably)

Anal gland smell ... funnily enough there's a neutered bitch who's owner has put up with her being dry humped by all and sundry (9yrs is going some). At a recent check they found that there had been incomplete removal of one of the ovaries, leaving a small fragment behind which had developed into a mass needing her to have it removed. Haven't seen her recently (since op) so can't say if this could have been the dry hump issue with her.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

aaaah dry humping. Those were the days


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i strongly disagree when anyone says that _'no dog should ever bite, under any circumstances.'_
> it's pure bull; a dog-bite can be anything from an air-snap to a full-mouth mauling grip, which removes flesh.
> U cannot lump them all together as one incident - they cover the gamut from mild grump to major assault, & motive
> is another confounding factor: anyone who insists on handling a dog who's in severe pain is a damfool if they don't
> ...


I find it interesting you say that. We took Piper to get her booster jabs a few months ago and didn't see our usual vet. Piper was fine, licking and just happily playing, until the needle came out. Then she got scared. We couldn't get her to settle, so put her on the floor and the vet asked me to hold her on my lap. That made it worse and she air snapped at the vet. Eventually she took her off me out to the back room (I really wish I had just taken her home) and (i found out after all the screaming) a group of them PINNED her to the floor (and were using a choke chain) and vaccinated her.

We had to take her back recently and saw our normal vet. As soon as we walked into the vets room (was fine in the waiting room) she got scared. I explained what had happened with the last visit, so the vet sat on the floor until Piper calmed down. She still got scared when they tried to check her out (a little air snapping, the vet backed off). I tried to have her on my lap to calm her and the vet said that was the worst thing i could do as she was now feeling like she had to protect me, and it heightened the situation. She was able to calm her, with out any grabbing, and gave her a treat afterwards. A lot better experience.

I must admit i get very confused with all the talk of dominance and things.

Piper exhibits the posturing with some dogs (but not all) and will race to most dogs, really excited and play bow. I have noticed that sometimes when they are getting very playful, she growls a little and sometimes snaps, but not in an agressive way - i attribute this to like when a child gets over-excited and needs a time out?

There are so many theories i don't know what to thing. My dog behaviourist says Piper is a happy (if a little excited) dog who often rolls on her back with others, but will show the odd bit of dominance to others, especially pugs!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

WelshOneEmma said:


> I find it interesting you say that. We took Piper to get her booster jabs a few months ago and didn't see our usual vet. Piper was fine, licking and just happily playing, until the needle came out. Then she got scared. We couldn't get her to settle, so put her on the floor and the vet asked me to hold her on my lap. That made it worse and she air snapped at the vet. Eventually she took her off me out to the back room (I really wish I had just taken her home) and (i found out after all the screaming) a group of them PINNED her to the floor (and were using a choke chain) and vaccinated her.
> 
> We had to take her back recently and saw our normal vet. As soon as we walked into the vets room (was fine in the waiting room) she got scared. I explained what had happened with the last visit, so the vet sat on the floor until Piper calmed down. She still got scared when they tried to check her out (a little air snapping, the vet backed off). I tried to have her on my lap to calm her and the vet said that was the worst thing i could do as she was now feeling like she had to protect me, and it heightened the situation. She was able to calm her, with out any grabbing, and gave her a treat afterwards. A lot better experience.
> 
> ...


If they thought the pinning down was an ok thing to do, why take her out of your sight to do it? I won't allow mine out of my sight at the vets or anywhere else (Ferdie would sit down and refuse to go anyway) and I would make quite sure you see your regular vet next time.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> If they thought the pinning down was an ok thing to do, why take her out of your sight to do it? I won't allow mine out of my sight at the vets or anywhere else (Ferdie would sit down and refuse to go anyway) and I would make quite sure you see your regular vet next time.


She said it was to calm her down as she was getting too stressed with me in the room. She got so scared she managed to slip her collar, hence the choke chain. I honestly don't know why i didnt say i would come back another day. And after she told me she pinned her, i was so shocked i just left.

Piper wouldnt let anyone (apart from me and OH) touch her back end for a few weeks.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Poor Pippa! I am so glad that my vet allows me to calm my own animals in my own way because we would have some serious fallings out if they ever did that to one of mine!


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> Poor Pippa! I am so glad that my vet allows me to calm my own animals in my own way because we would have some serious fallings out if they ever did that to one of mine!


I have written a letter of complaint. The normal vet was much better and thinks she's a happy dog. Was even fine with me doing a home diet and gave me a recipe to follow to ensure she was getting what she needs. She actually said its obvious we have a good bond as she would put herself between me and the vet when she thought the vet was going to hurt me (after the last vet, I'm not surprised she thought she might hurt me!)


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I do not blame you for complaining! I would refuse to allow them near Pippa in the future and if you have no other choice but to use them, watch them very carefully. The pinning down etc was totally unnecessary and just goes to show that where knowledge and patience lack, force begins!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

My son told me about when he took Dora for her pregnancy scan. They pinned her and she looked terrified. My son said to them "look, whatever position you want her in, I can get her to do with no force - please tell me how you want her and I will do it. You're frightening her" but they said it was much better this way!  I'd have blown my top if I'd been there. :incazzato:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I once had to help a lady whose Neapolitan Mastiff had been pinned against the wall and his muzzle slapped by the vet when he growled when having his 2nd vaccination as a pup!  He was refusing to go into the surgery - and when a Neo says 'No I ain't going' there is not much an owner can do about it! I was surprised that the lady had not changed surgeries so I set her an appointment up with a vet I knew who agreed to help and eventually he was walking in there and standing patiently for examination but it did take a few goes. Clicker training him helped enormously.

If such mistreatment occurred to an animal of mine at the vets, I wouldn't be stunned - the vet would!  The whole waiting room would know about it as well!

There's nothing more pathetic than a so called intelligent human being asserting authority over a frightened, nervous, confused animal because he/she assumes it to be 'dominant'!


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> There's nothing more pathetic than a so called intelligent human being asserting authority over a frightened, nervous, confused animal because he/she assumes it to be 'dominant'!


Totally agree. My dog was pregnant too! It could have caused her to reabsorb! She's one of these dogs who shows you her belly as soon as you stroke her anyway, so there was absolutely no need for restraint. Vets should have some bloody training in dog handling!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Totally agree. My dog was pregnant too! It could have caused her to reabsorb! She's one of these dogs who shows you her belly as soon as you stroke her anyway, so there was absolutely no need for restraint. Vets should have some bloody training in dog handling!


There are a lot of vets who just do not have the patience it takes to do things properly. There is one at my surgery who I refuse to see; she lost of temper with Joshua when he wouldn't let her stick a thermometer up his bum. I told her he wouldn't, but they think they know more than you do about your own dog.

I won't let them take my dogs out of my sight. Even if they are having to be knocked out, I stay with them.


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## Honey Bee (Mar 29, 2011)

I would not put up with rough treatment of any of my dogs either by a vet, especially a choke chain!  
Can I ask did either of you report these incidents to the RCVS at the time?


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Honey Bee said:


> Can I ask did either of you report these incidents to the RCVS at the time?


I didn't because it was 5 weeks ago, and my son has just told me about it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> I didn't because it was 5 weeks ago, and my son has just told me about it.


i'd still report it, ASAP - in writing; i'd ask my adult-son to write down their version, too. 
Urs is hearsay, his is witness - and U have seen fallout from the manhandling, since the event.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Will do. They were totally wrong about how many pups there were too - a waste of time and a load of stress for my girl.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pupcakes said:


> [Once] I was stroking Dotties ears, [with] cuts on the end from her trying to rub her muzzle off.
> I stroked her and she growled... my friend said "*Tell her off! Slam her!*"... I said "I forgot her ears are sore..."
> to which my friend replied "*It doesn't matter! You should be able to do what you want to her without being bitten.*"


this presumption of human-entitlement is sadly, a common attitude - many adults have much the same belief 
about children: ANY child should 'obey' any adult, but as we all know, absolute obedience to any adult 
can become compliance with a predator or pedophile, doing something dangerous when urged by an adult-eejit, 
& other bad outcomes. Children need to know who & why to obey, not just 'do it' - but this comes with age, toddlers 
must be protected from predators or dam*ed fools who urge them to do dangerous things in play.

DOGS HAVE RIGHTS - & one of them is self-defense: if they are being hurt, they have a right to defend themselves. 
no vet will coo sympathetically when U tell them tearfully that Fido/Fidella *bit U when U picked them up, after 
s/he was hit by a car... * they're more likely to say, _'what did U expect?'..._ & hustle the dog off 
for an exam, fluids & x-rays. 


Pupcakes said:


> This way of thinking scares me... I now see how dangerous all this "D" theory can be. What makes me mad too,
> ...my friend tells me Dottie SHOULD be good with children, SHOULD allow them to try & touch her on the head
> without trying to bite... She growls at them and I ALWAYS tell them "Don't come near her, she's very scared
> of people"; the growl was a warning, but I'm told to punish her for it!


Candice, i would never punish a growl - NOR let anyone else do so.

having her growl at a child is far, far preferable to a bite - & snapping at a child who ignores a growl is GOOD. 
any child who intrudes on a dog despite the dog's warnings needs immediate intervention by an adult - if not the parent, 
the dog-owner, *anyone* nearby with brains-enuf to see how dangerous the child's behavior is; don't ignore it, 
& if the parent ignores it [assuming there's a parent, G-parent, or other minder] *tell them* it's unacceptable.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Ten years ago my grandaughter had her eighth birthday party at my house. It seemed to me like the whole damned school was there! My old retriever, Sammy, had been having a good time with all the kids, but he had had enough and came to lie in the kitchen. Two of the brats followed him and carried on stroking him; he growled at them. One backed off immediately but the other, who had dogs of her own, carried on.

I am glad I was there because I told her very sternly that if the dog bit her, having told her to leave him alone, she had better not come crying to me about it!

If I hadn't been in the kitchen at the time, he may well have bitten and then the mother would have been screaming about it. The mother who should have taught the brat how to treat a dog.

How else is a dog supposed communicate his feelings? Ask nicely?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Ten years ago my G-daughter had her eighth birthday party at my house.
> ...My old retriever, Sammy, had... a good time with all the kids, but he'd had enough and came to lie in the kitchen.
> Two... brats followed him & carried on stroking him; he growled at them. One backed off immediately but the other,
> *who had dogs of her own*, carried on.
> ...


it's alarming that a kid who lives with a dog would blatantly ignore all the preceding signals, AND a growl - 
leaving the tumult is the first big [- SIGN -], he's being very clear. That the dog was forced to growl at all 
means she was being extremely persistent. 


newfiesmum said:


> How else is a dog supposed to communicate his feelings? Ask nicely?


precisely. no iPad, no mental telepathy, no spoken human language - 
*it's up to us big-brained humans to pay attention & respond to the dog appropriately.*


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Honey Bee said:


> I would not put up with rough treatment of any of my dogs either by a vet, especially a choke chain!
> Can I ask did either of you report these incidents to the RCVS at the time?


No, i didn't even think of something like that. To be honest, all i wanted was it on record what happened, and some assistance building up Piper's confidence with the vets.

I mentioned it on a recent pack walk with the dog trainer, she knew which vet it was straight away when i mentioned the practice, and said she had heard a lot of similar things about this vet.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WelshOneEmma said:


> I mentioned it on a recent pack walk with the dog trainer, *she knew which vet it was straight away when i mentioned
> the practice*, and said she had heard a lot of similar things about this vet.


:yikes: Report it, please - no matter how long ago! obviously the practice has not stopped, & more pets will be 
terrified, hurt & traumatized - this needs immediate attention from the animal-welfare authorities. :nonod:


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

It's no good telling other people about it. You need to report it to the APDT head office. Without a proper report made, it's just hearsay and nothing willl ever change. Nothing changes if people just mutter to their mates etc and never make the complaints official. (This is not a dig at you btw WelshoneEmma _ I wouldn't do that.  ) It's just that I have often had people complain to me about other trainers they have seen but they won't put their complaints in to the organisations (not APDT in this instance) because they 'don't want to cause trouble' yet are happy to mutter in corners about it! It's frustrating and just makes the whole organisation look bad then you see?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

CarolineH said:


> It's no good telling other people about it. You need to report it to the APDT head office. Without a proper report made, it's just hearsay and nothing willl ever change. Nothing changes if people just mutter to their mates etc and never make the complaints official. (This is not a dig at you btw WelshoneEmma _ I wouldn't do that.  ) It's just that I have often had people complain to me about other trainers they have seen but they won't put their complaints in to the organisations (not APDT in this instance) because they 'don't want to cause trouble' yet are happy to mutter in corners about it! It's frustrating and just makes the whole organisation look bad then you see?


Caroline, I think you have your wires crossed! She is talking about her vet, not a trainer.

The same thing happens in my industry a lot, many male instructors who cannot keep their hands to themselves around the young girls and all they do is change instructors and find a female, they never report them. What is it with this "don't want to get involved" society?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

*tuts at self*

Note to me - do not post when brain is foggy!

Apologies WelshOne.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> *tuts at self*
> 
> Note to me - do not post when brain is foggy!
> 
> Apologies WelshOne.


It's ok, I kinda figured what you meant, but yes, it was the vet. I am still happy to use the practice with my normal vet. The one we saw that caused the issues works at a different practice normally (but still part of the same vet group, if that makes sense?). My normal vet is very good and was very understanding about the issues and calmed Piper down. She was very good with her and understood why she was acting the way she was.

I hadn't thought of reporting to anyone as i was just complaining to the head of the practice. I will see what happens with that. I would rather with enough complaints they would try to do something internally so that she has a chance to learn, rather than just go over them. If she doesn't learn from it, then its a different matter.

We do pack walks with my dog trainer (so the dogs learn to walk on the lead and how to act around others on the lead) and she just mentioned she knew of a few people leaving the practice because of this particular vet. Although going back to the dominance thing, the trainer things that Piper displays dominant tendancies!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WelshOneEmma said:


> We do pack walks with my dog trainer (so the dogs learn to walk on the lead & how to act around others on-lead)
> [the trainer] mentioned she knew of a few people leaving the practice because of this particular vet.


doesn't surprise me, i'd be out the door promptly. :nonod: 


WelshOneEmma said:


> Although going back to the dominance thing, *the trainer thinks that Piper displays dominant tendencies!*


sadly, anybody who calls group-walkies 'pack-walks' is going to be prone to this mindset. :blush:

the ultimate Dawg-Wrassler disciple term is... _hrrrumph... _  _pack migrations._ 
 sorry, but i thought those trusting innocents who may be reading along, should be pre-warned. 
'pack-walks' is a definite concern; 'pack-migrations' or just plain 'migrations'...? 
_*Run! - don't walk - get outta Dodge.*_

i'd politely tell the trainer that 'dominance is about *resources*, not status; *intra*species, not "inter"; 
and is an *event*, not a lifestyle nor a personality-trait.' :001_smile:

Dumbinance OTOH is anything people want to slap a label on - generally any UNwanted behavior.


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Ooh that has reminded me of a training class I went to - at the start of the lesson we had to do a 'pack walk' and no dogs were allowed to have a high tail.  There was a guy with a terrier and the trainer kept telling him to knock his dogs tail down!! I said it was its natural carriage and it was ridiculous to expect it to keep it down. She said I was wrong, it was being dominant and needed to have its tail lowered. I left.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

luvmydogs said:


> Ooh that has reminded me of a training class I went to - at the start of the lesson we had to do a 'pack walk' and no dogs were allowed to have a high tail.  There was a guy with a terrier and the trainer kept telling him to knock his dogs tail down!! I said it was its natural carriage and it was ridiculous to expect it to keep it down. She said I was wrong, it was being dominant and needed to have its tail lowered. I left.


So what would she do with a pug then? And how would she know if a dog with a docked tail was dominant? Stupid woman. That's almost as silly as CM thinking that if he hooked the dog's tail up with his lead, he would feel happy.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

luvmydogs said:


> ...that [reminds] me of a training class I went to - at the start of the lesson
> we had to do a 'pack walk' and no dogs were allowed to have a high tail.  There was a guy with a terrier
> & the trainer kept telling him to knock his dog's tail down!! I said it was... natural carriage & it was ridiculous
> to expect [the dog] to keep it down. She said I was wrong, [the terrier] was being dominant,& needed to have
> [her/his] tail lowered. I left.


Lord luv a duck, what twaddle. :nonod: it'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

did she suggest lead-fishing-weight to *hold* the dog's tail down? :hand: just Kidding! *don't try that at home*, kids: 
the first time the dog wags, there could be a concussion, smashed TV-screen or other unplanned effects.

did she have any Nordics in class? :001_tt2: i'm guessing not; U might slap a Chow's tail down once, maybe twice... 
but that would probably be an experiment ending in tears. :001_tongue:

sounds like Cesar, putting a donkey-britching on a scared dog to keep the dog's tail out from under the butt, 
claiming it makes the dog feel more confident, :lol: -- 'increased confidence' comes _*first*_*; then,* the tail rises.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> ...almost as silly as CM thinking that if he hooked the dog's tail up with his lead, [she'd] feel happy.


small minds running in a common rut, eh? :laugh:

that was *Ruby* the scared Vizsla, she was so anxious, poor thing.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> doesn't surprise me, i'd be out the door promptly. :nonod:
> 
> sadly, anybody who calls group-walkies 'pack-walks' is going to be prone to this mindset. :blush:
> 
> ...


To be honest, we do the walks as its good for Piper to be on a lead and learn how to walk calmly on said lead (we plan to start trying for a baby soon and i will need her to be able to not pull on a lead). She also gets really hyper round other dogs as she wants to play, and again its good for her to learn she can't always do that. Most of the dogs on the walk have some issues (usually DA) and its to try to get them used to other dogs. The majority of the dogs accept Piper walking with them as she doesn't have DA and is almost a calming influence on them (bizarre). There are some things that the trainer does 'teach' that i don't agree with, so we don't do this with Piper (such as grabbing the muzzle to tell them off when they snap at another dog - again we are the only ones who don't do this, and again the only ones with a relatively calm dog!). We take from the walks what we want, and leave what we don't agree with.

There is behaviour with Piper we are still trying to understand, and some of this is described as dominance. Its not really resource guarding though. We have yet to find something that is of 'high value' to Piper - if you ask for it, she will give you anything she has. You can take any chew from her, whilst she's chewing it (not that you should!) as we did this from an early age, and she always got something back when we took what she had.

She is a dog who will approach pretty much any person, any dog and is fearless in 99.9% of situations. However she does do the t-position with some dogs. In one instance it caused a scuffle (totally our fault for not catching it in time) - in other cases a dog sniffed her bum and she ran off yelping - how is that a dominant dog?! She also sometimes gets hyper when playing with other dogs and will growl and get nippy. Its not aggressive as such, but i realise we need to nip that in the bud so will start working on that. She only does it with dogs bigger than her.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Can't take credit for finding this but a kind soul found it and put it on another forum - Alpha Dog Theory - Debunking the dominance theory, alpha dog myth, pack leader


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

WelshOneEmma said:


> To be honest, we do the walks as its good for Piper to be on a lead and learn how to walk calmly on said lead (we plan to start trying for a baby soon and i will need her to be able to not pull on a lead). She also gets really hyper round other dogs as she wants to play, and again its good for her to learn she can't always do that. Most of the dogs on the walk have some issues (usually DA) and its to try to get them used to other dogs. The majority of the dogs accept Piper walking with them as she doesn't have DA and is almost a calming influence on them (bizarre). There are some things that the trainer does 'teach' that i don't agree with, so we don't do this with Piper (such as grabbing the muzzle to tell them off when they snap at another dog - again we are the only ones who don't do this, and again the only ones with a relatively calm dog!). We take from the walks what we want, and leave what we don't agree with.
> 
> There is behaviour with Piper we are still trying to understand, and some of this is described as dominance. Its not really resource guarding though. We have yet to find something that is of 'high value' to Piper - if you ask for it, she will give you anything she has. You can take any chew from her, whilst she's chewing it (not that you should!) as we did this from an early age, and she always got something back when we took what she had.
> 
> She is a dog who will approach pretty much any person, any dog and is fearless in 99.9% of situations. However she does do the t-position with some dogs. In one instance it caused a scuffle (totally our fault for not catching it in time) - in other cases a dog sniffed her bum and she ran off yelping - how is that a dominant dog?! She also sometimes gets hyper when playing with other dogs and will growl and get nippy. Its not aggressive as such, but i realise we need to nip that in the bud so will start working on that. She only does it with dogs bigger than her.


No offense to your trainer, but she is completely misusing the term 'dominance' there. There is nothing called 'dominance tendencies'. It doesn't even make sense! :nonod:


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## Guy2932 (Jun 23, 2011)

It's ok to use the word 'dominance'. It has a meaning but it's about ensuring we are all singing off the same hymn sheet. A bit of perspective to help.

In the beginning life was asocial. Amoeba etc. Life is a struggle for the things you need to survive. Space, water, food etc. Everything that takes those things from you is a threat to your life.

As life evolved so new strategies evolved. Birds flock. The advantage is safety in numbers. But they need to learn to tolerate close proximity to others who are in direct competition with them.

Life evolved further until you end up with higher mammals like dogs, apes etc. Not only do they tolerate close proximity but they actually co-operate for the greater good of the group. We call these types of animal 'social' animals.

BUT, to be social means you have to be socialised. This socialisation process happens early on in the animals life. It learns how to communicate with others, it learns the rules of how to be social.

Many of these rules are aimed at overcoming aggression. Aggression is a drive aimed at eliminating competition. Competition is anything that poses a threat to your health and welfare.

Dominance can be thought of as social aggression. A drive that aims to control or remove competition but only temporarily. Submission is social fear. Fear is a drive that motivates an animal to avoid a threat. The key point here is that dominance relates to social issues.

We all know that dogs are descended from wolves and that wolves have a social order. Dominance and submission are ways to describe some of the behaviour they exhibit but it doesn't explain how social order is achieved.

Social order is achieved by being appropriately socialised and habituated to the environment. If not then fear and aggression will be the result in some situations. Social order is achieved by everybody knowing the rules and those rules being consistently and fairly enforced.

Dominance theory suggests that social order is gained by threats and intimidation. By bully tactics. That the biggest and the strongest will gain control. It's rubbish and based on some flawed wolf study from yesteryear.

Outside of your home everybody is a stranger and therefore a potential threat. Unless that is you have socialised to such an extent that your dog is able to accept them. It also relies on everybody else being that well socialised.

I have attempted 100 thousand years of evolutionary behaviour in a page so those with more intellect than me forgive any minor discrepancies. I hope it helps give a wider perspective on some things.

Check out my article Dominance theory is outdated or should I alpha roll my dog for more.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Guy2932 said:


> The key point here is that dominance relates to social issues.


we-e-e-elllll, sorta - Dominance is about who gets WHAT - it's resources.

resources in the wild are limited: there are only so many dead whales for polar bears to happen upon & gorge. 
there are only so many acres of high-alpine full of army-moth larvae for grizzly bears to eat. 
there are only so many places where the early-spring grass is lush & high-protein for herbivores - 
or grizzlies just waking up, who BTW eat over 75% plant-material as a diet.

resources in a pet-home are not limited: FOOD is not a zero-sum game, & this dog getting some does not mean 
that they other dog gets less - or none!  they will be fed adequately, they will get whatever treats are offered, 
they have toys to play with, places to rest comfortably, human attention, social opportunities to meet other dogs, etc.

BREEDING is a big hot-button in the wild: who gets to breed is often based on who has a territory [puma], builds the best 
nest in that territory [northern robin], has the most-impressive bellow & rack [Rocky Mt. elk] or song [humpback whale].

in pet-homes & working-homes, HUMANS decide who breeds; we don't turn loose 6 likely suitors & 1 estrous bitch, 
& let them fight it out! :yikes: so food, space & mates are all under human control - not fought-over prizes.

stray-dogs WILL fight over a dumpster with fresh food, a bitch in season, a marrow-bone, etc - but no one dog 
in a given neighborhood determines what all of the dogs will **do** next. there's no administration; 
dogs don't run to consult their High Mucky-Muck before deciding to slouch down to the creek on a hot day, & lie 
in the cool water to drink & cool-off, or if now is the time to go to the town-dump, or should we wait an hour?... 
they each come to these decisions individually, & while dogs may cluster at food-sites, they don't have a fixed order: 
A does not eat before B before C before D...

dominance is not 'status' or rank - it's resources & allocation. 
dogs tend to do it by deference: adult-bitches will *defer* to 4 to 5-WO pups who are sampling her food, 
but she needs the calories for breastmilk - by the time they are 10-days older, she'll growl them off to eat, 
cuz her eating means they nurse - so the humans need to provide a flying-saucer bowl for a 5-WO litter, 
and a BOWL FOR EACH PUP by the time they are 6-WO.

IMO the most significant difference in wolves & dogs behaviorally is pair-bond [wolves do, dogs don't] & pups - 
pups are so valuable, orphan-wolves are virtually unknown - if a breeding pair dies, their neighbors take the pups 
from the den & rear them as their own. Juvie-wolves 6-MO will urp up food for younger pups when they beg! :w00t: 
12-MO male wolves will argue over who gets to baby-sit the younger litter - not to LOSE, to win! :blink: their attitude 
toward pups & the community effort of rearing a single litter, vs let every poor stray bitch fend for herself & her pups, 
is the Grand Canyon of behavior between dogs & wolves.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Guy2932 said:


> It's ok to use the word 'dominance'. It has a meaning but it's about ensuring we are all singing off the same hymn sheet. A bit of perspective to help.
> 
> In the beginning life was asocial. Amoeba etc. Life is a struggle for the things you need to survive. Space, water, food etc. Everything that takes those things from you is a threat to your life.
> 
> ...


Of course dominance has a particular ethological definition- I wasn't questioning it. Dominance describes roles in relationships and interactions, over resources. Two dogs, one bone, the one that wins _consistently_ can be called the dominant animal in that interaction (this is very important- without consistent deference from one individual, the relationship is not fixed enough to be described as a dominance relationship).

However, wolves are family animals. There social order is positioned around age, almost exclusively. We can name the mum and dad the dominant animals, but it is quite useless really, as why not call them mum or dad, or the breeding pair? Those terms are a lot more substantial.

In domestic dogs, there are seldom fixed hierarchies- if at all, considering feral dog populations don't even organise themselves in fixed hierarchies, suggesting that the effects of domestication have selected against the need to for strict hierarchies. Most probably due to the reduced competition and 'need' for survival- i.e. they are scavengers, pet dogs are catered for by humans etc. Without a hierarchy, dominance labels are even more useless, as the relationship between individuals tends to be too dynamic and fluid to apply such rigid descriptions.


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## Guy2932 (Jun 23, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> we-e-e-elllll, sorta - Dominance is about who gets WHAT - it's resources.
> 
> I agree it's about resources and lack of them will intensify any situation BUT I maintain that it's within a social context.
> 
> ...


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Guy2932 said:


> leashedForLife said:
> 
> 
> > Ultimately we are just talking about words that we are using to describe an ultimate truth. The truth is what the truth is whatever words we use to describe it but these are the words by which I have come to understand how it all works!
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by leashedForLife
> Ultimately we are just talking about words that we are using to describe an ultimate truth. The truth is what the truth is whatever words we use to describe it but these are the words by which I have come to understand how it all works!
> ------------------------------------
> ...


please *edit* & correct this post? :001_smile: i did not write that - Guy did. 
thanks in advance, 
- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> we-e-e-elllll, sorta - Dominance is about who gets WHAT - it's resources.


please remember to close quotes?  that makes who said what, much-more clear. :thumbup1: 


Guy2932 said:


> Compare this to the red fox (_Vulpus vulpus_).
> As a solitary animal [they have] *no real socialisation period*...


that's not true: fox have a socialization period just as other species do, it's how they learn who are potential mates, 
among other things; i have seen fox who were human-reared on bottles after the death of their dam, & they are 
not all social with all humans [tho some are], but they retain sociability with their caregivers. 
i've also seen fox who grew-up in human homes with dogs, cats, etc; they remain social with those species, as adults.

it's not so simple as 'nobody but SOCIAL -a-k-a- pack or pride or herd or flock animals have socialization periods'. 
many herps leave the nest without interaction with their mother or nestmates, but even alligators spend time 
with their mothers as guardians for the first few months, & gators often spend time socializing outside mating.

psittacines in Australia from 2 different species were *historically* separated in 2 habitats, 
eating different foods; the arrival of Europeans eliminated one habitat, & these birds now nest in the same 
area; one species nests later, & has been known to fight for tenancy of an already-occupied nest, then rear 
the eggs in it as their own - the cross-parented birds MATE WITH THEIR STEP-PARENTS' SPECIES as adults. 
this is a direct result of being exposed to the 'wrong' species during that critical socialization period.

housecats are not 'pack animals' nor are they regarded as highly-social; yet kittens co-reared with other species 
[rats, bunnies, etc, reared by a cat with her kittens, or kittens reared by a dog, etc] also retain their social ties 
& social predisposition toward those other species, as adults.


Guy2932 said:


> ...try as you may you will fail to make it into a social animal like a dog or a wolf because
> [the red-fox] just hasn't developed that way. What you do see though is *some ritualised behaviour between mating pairs
> to allow them to overcome aggression and procreate*. You will only see this in the mating season though.
> The rest of the time you will just see aggression between anything other than mother and cubs.


it's a bit more than 'procreate', which is only fertilization - procreate implies the dam alone rears the litter. 
this is extremely inaccurate.

male foxes UNLIKE domestic-dogs, even feral dom-dogs, _*do pair-bond*_. 
they feed the vixen when she's denning or heavy in whelp, they feed her while she's nursing neonates, 
they cache food & later bring it to the den to feed the cubs, they'll carry food back to the den & feed the litter, 
they will also watch over the pups while their mate hunts, for a change of pace. Short of breastfeeding, 
they share parenting duties - & they help teach hunting to the pups when they are older, too.

see the photos & description here - Toronto, Canada, photo-blog: 
Photo Journal by Ann: Fox and Babies - Past favourite 2008


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## Guy2932 (Jun 23, 2011)

Rottiefan said:


> Of course dominance has a particular ethological definition- I wasn't questioning it. Dominance describes roles in relationships and interactions, over resources. Two dogs, one bone, the one that wins _consistently_ can be called the dominant animal in that interaction (this is very important- without consistent deference from one individual, the relationship is not fixed enough to be described as a dominance relationship).
> 
> However, wolves are family animals. There social order is positioned around age, almost exclusively. We can name the mum and dad the dominant animals, but it is quite useless really, as why not call them mum or dad, or the breeding pair? Those terms are a lot more substantial.
> 
> ...


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Irish Setter Gal said:


> Guy2932 said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome, a word to the wise before you get bitten.
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> ----> correcting attribution <----


to clarify - this is the post & author:


Irish Setter Gal said:


> Welcome, a word to the wise before you get bitten.
> 
> Be careful about the language and interpretation of words chosen - this area of the forum bites and doesn't take prisoners,
> and especially where you fail to agree with the consensus.


ISG said this, not Guy.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

Replying to a post (and how to quote) 

If you want to post replies to multiple posts you can select them by clicking the multi quote button . This button will change to indicate that you've selected it. Clicking post reply will then bring you to the full editor with all the posts quoted.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Oops, sorry. I have no idea what happened there


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

I like this article - Alpha Dog Theory - Debunking the dominance theory, alpha dog myth, pack leader

Trouble is, the Dumbinance theorists won't read stuff like this as it tells them what they just do not want to know.(and proves their tv heros wrong!)


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## Guy2932 (Jun 23, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> please remember to close quotes?  that makes who said what, much-more clear. :thumbup1:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Guy2932 said:


> leashedForLife said:
> 
> 
> > please remember to close quotes?  that makes who said what, much-more clear. :thumbup1:
> ...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Have you read studies on Belyaev's foxes? It's been going since the 60s & foxes have...
> become highly tolerant of the human environment and very social with humans.
> Selected animals show affiliative behaviours akin to those of domestic dogs.


yes - all they did was select for MORE tolerant of humans: standing their ground at first, without attacking. 
then later, they selected for approaching, not merely standing without hostile assault.

within 10-generations [a decade], they had pied fox with curly tails or drop ears or white sox, who wagged 
their tails & approached any human.

YouTube - ‪Russian Domesticated Foxes‬‏


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