# cats, humans, prey-species & Toxo-G



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

New Research Investigates How The Common 'Cat Parasite' Gets Into The Brain

* the most-common route of Toxo-exposure in humans is eating undercooked meat.

* vegies grown in soil contaminated with Toxo & not *thoroughly* washed are another possible
exposure.

* Most folks don't reach into a litter-box bare handed & pick up feces to remove them; a simple litter-sifter
will prevent needless exposure. :thumbsup:



> ...studies in humans & mice have suggested that even in the dormant phase, the parasite [Toxo.] can influence
> increased risk-taking, & infected people show higher incidence of schizophrenia, anxiety & depression,
> which are broader public health concerns.
> 
> ...


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Shouldn't this be in cat health and nutrition?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

carly87 said:


> Shouldn't this be in cat health and nutrition?


I put it here because unlike the huge majority of parasites, *Toxo affects behavior -*

in mice, it makes cat-pee [normally terrifying] smell 'sexy'; rodents are attracted to it, rather than flee;
it makes rodents avoid edges of rooms & shadowed places, & walk about boldly in the middle of a room
or frequent open, sunny areas, instead of travel under leaf-litter beneath a shrub.

in humans, over-*80%* of fatal accidents that involve alcohol or single-vehicle speeding, *have a driver
who tests positive for Toxo-exposure.* That percentage becomes *over-90%* for fatal motorcycle-crashes.

It's the *changes in behavior* that make Toxo a public-health issue; the likelihood of a pregnant woman
being exposed to Toxo for the 1st time is low, in the USA; over 70% of adults over-18-YO have been exposed.
The odds of being exposed via a litterbox are miniscule; disposable gloves or a litter-lifter are simple, cheap
precautions that anyone can use, or just have the father=to=be take over litterbox-housekeeping. :biggrin5:

RISK-TAKING: speeding in cars, drink-&-drive, reckless motorcyclists, free-climbing, base-jumping, etc,
with inadequate preparation or poor equipment & other added-risks, often result from Toxo-parasites, & we
are not doing enuf to notify ppl of the risk - not from the cats, from the Toxo, most-often via undercooked meats.

That *steak Diane or Tartare* can carry a lot more than flavor - 
& diners need to be aware of the potential risk. What young parent wants to die in an auto-accident,
& leave their child[ren] to be reared by relatives or friends? What parent wants to bury their adult-child 
after s/he loses control of the motorcycle, & crashes at speed?


----------



## nightkitten (Jun 15, 2012)

I am not sure if I can believe these statistics and this article as in 80% of motorcycle accidents the motorcyclist is either not at fault or at least less at fault than the car driver.

And why would they do a test on toxo when someone is speeding?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

nightkitten said:


> ...why would they do a test on toxo when someone is speeding?


The tests i referred to were done on USA-drivers who died in fatal accidents.

a 2002 article about Czech-research re increased-risk & Toxo:
BBC NEWS | Health | Dirt infection link to car crashes
QUOTE,


> A team led by Jaroslav Flegr from the Dept of Parasitology at Charles Univ., Prague, Czech Republic,
> looked at 146 men & women attending a surgical outpatient-clinic after a road accident, ...compared
> with 446 people... randomly selected from the local population. All were screened for Toxo-antibodies.
> People with latent toxoplasmosis [had] a "significantly increased risk" of road accidents. The risk decreased
> ...


ABSTRACT of the above study:
Increased risk of traffic accidents in subjects with latent toxoplasmosis: a retrospective case-control study

2004 submission / revised & pubd 2005:
Is Toxoplasma gondii a potential risk for traffic accidents in Turkey? | Ahmet Özbilgin - Academia.edu

2009 study using military draftees with known Toxo-status [exposed or unexposed] -
BMC Infectious Diseases | Full text | Increased incidence of traffic accidents in Toxoplasma-infected military drivers and protective effect RhD molecule revealed by a large-scale prospective cohort study

There are more, but these give U the basics: Risk-taking increases, reaction-speed suffers - 
IOW we take riskier actions, but our ability to react quickly in emergencies is compromised,
& both can result from what was previously thought to be a 'dormant & asymptomatic' infection.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> That *steak Diane or Tartare* can carry a lot more than flavor -
> & diners need to be aware of the potential risk.


Read an article recently regarding Toxoplasmosis and attempted suicide that also points to possible personality changes caused by T. Gondii. But what came first, the toxo or the 'crazy cat lady'?

T. Gondii: Cat Parasite Linked to Suicide Risk in Women | TIME.com

....._Steak Tartare _yeah. _Steak Diane_ is cooked and topped with a sauce made of pan drippings & flambeed, so while it might grab one's attention, it isn't accurate that one can get toxo from it unless it was uncooked inside


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> _Steak Diane_ is cooked... it isn't accurate that one can get toxo from it unless it was uncooked inside


the most-common source of Toxo-exposure for humans isn't RAW meat, it's *under*cooked, 
as opposed to 'uncooked'.

Backyard burgers on the grill are an especially-likely candidate: the diners get impatient, & the cook 
shrugs & delivers a burger that's seared on the outside, grey-brown at the surface, & pink centered.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> ...what came first, the toxo or the 'crazy cat lady'?


what came first:
the daredevil motorcyclist, or the Toxo-infection? :wink:

unless we know their Toxo-status before the defining event [cycle-wipeout @ speed / suicide / other], 
it's a chicken-&-egg question.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

okay, going back to being a vegetarian. In addition thoroughly scrubbing all veggies, using heavy duty gloves whilst scooping the litter box, staying of all motorcycles, plus taking all other reasonable precautions. 

But I_ ain't_ giving up feeding my cats raw! :scared:


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

O for pity's sake. What nonsense is this? Many people have been exposed to toxo, myself included. What do I do? Rehome my cats, give up meat and have myself committed into an institution? Just in case I decide to go on a murderous rampage at my local supermarket? Well, that might happen, but it sure won't be toxo. It will be result of menopause coupled with extreme irritation over paranoid and alarmist reporting on everything we eat, breathe, drink and do.
Not even our pets are safe from this constant harrassment from the numpty press and bored European and US "scientists". 
GRRRRRR!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> ...In addition to thoroughly scrubbing all veggies, using heavy duty gloves whilst scooping the litter box,
> staying off all motorcycles, plus taking all other reasonable precautions.


Daredevil drivers who speed, drink & drive, etc, aren't *all* Toxo-positive: high school kids,
young military males, & the other usual-suspects are all often involved in accidents, 1-vehicle or not.

*it's the ODDS of being -Both- Toxo-positive AND the driver of a speeding vehicle, killed on a cycle,
& so on, that are so striking.* Obviously, risk-taking & Toxo are not only seen in mice & other rodents - 
that's what biologists & the medical-community once thought, but it ain't so, unfortunately.

Also, the simplest way to keep one's kitty Toxo-free [so s/he is not an asymptomatic carrier] is to 
keep her / him indoors & /or prevent Kitty from eating small animals - that's how CATS pick up Toxo,
most-commonly: from the bodies of whatever bird, rodent, etc, they ate.


Toby Tyler said:


> But I_ ain't_ giving up feeding my cats raw! :scared:


hey, no need to panic! :wink: Feeding raw is fine, & simply freezing meats [if they weren't already] 
will cut the bacteria-load considerably - it's not 'zero', but keep it at 38'F or below & feed promptly, 
don't let leftovers lie around in the bowl [pack'em back in the frig or re-freeze, or pitch'em], 
& U can keep raw-feeding pretty safe.

There's also the obvious: SANITIZE any surface raw-meats contact before using it for anything else;
don't cut salad ingredients on a cutting-board that U just used to dice chicken or debone a steak.

PUT RAW MEATS beneath anything else in the frig, so they can't DRIP on foods or containers below,
& use a tray to catch any leaks before they occur - save a Styro tray that's been washed well as a 
spare tray for the frig, & set that defrosting bag of chicken-necks right on it.

Lots of folks feed raw - U just avoid 'growing' more bacteria [keep it cold], kill what U can [pre-freeze], 
don't leave it at room-temp for long, & don't Cross-Contaminate. :thumbsup:


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Surely it's commons sense - wash your hands after cleaning litter trays 

One of my cats is a voracious hunter (mice) & as we live in the countryside & the house & outside space is over run with the things at the moment I do not (& could not) discourage her from this activity. There is also no way I would confine her to being an indoor cat either.

Tbh there are far more things in life to worry about than this.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I think it is interesting and something we should be aware of at least. Personally have always taken most of these precautions. Well, except for the motorcycle anyway.  

Am definitely guilty of eating undercooked meat, as children we used to sneak raw hamburger meat from the fridge and eat it. 

However, living in the country, I certainly am not going to complain if a mouse/mole/vole/shrew gets in the house and one of the cats devours it.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LOL, we may be a prime example then .... I never wash veggies, I rarely wash my hands, the cats eat mice, the animals are all raw fed, my OH likes meat very rare & he rides a motorbike ...... 

I don't clean the litter trays out with my bare hands though if that makes difference!!!


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, we may be a prime example then .... I never wash veggies, I rarely wash my hands, the cats eat mice, the animals are all raw fed, my OH likes meat very rare & he rides a motorbike ......
> 
> *I don't clean the litter trays out with my bare hands though if that makes difference!!*!


Well ya may as well start then, cause you are either crawling with toxo, or are completely immune by now! :hand:

:lol::scared::yikes:


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, we may be a prime example then .... I never wash veggies, I rarely wash my hands, the cats eat mice, the animals are all raw fed, my OH likes meat very rare & he rides a motorbike ......
> 
> *I don't clean the litter trays out with my bare hands though if that makes difference!!!*


I just have this mental image of a woman hefting great handfuls of cat droppings from a litter tray now


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Most heathy adults have been exposed to toxoplasmosis at some point. Up to 90% of the population is immune because of past exposure. The main concern is for a pregnant woman exposing her fetus to a new toxoplasmosis infection when it hasn't yet developed antibodies.

Toxoplasmosis Symptoms Information


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

simplysardonic said:


> I just have this mental image of a woman hefting great handfuls of cat droppings from a litter tray now


'cept the cats are fed raw so there is no poop, lol. And when they _do_ poop, it doesn't smell. 

Seriously though, if up to 90% of the population is immune because of past exposure, doesn't that refute any of these studies since almost everyone will have some antibodies to Toxo-G anyway?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> *Most heathy adults [were already] exposed* to Toxo at some point.


We didn't know before approx 2002 that Toxo caused risky-behaviors to increase in humans - 
so "healthy" in an exposed person can be translated as "dormant infection".

The extent of behavioral changes & odds of injury have only been studied extensively for the past 5-yrs.
We're still discovering the extent of Toxo's impact on human-behavior & where the largest risks are, 
& have not even begun to talk about *how to mitigate those risks.*


Toby Tyler said:


> *Up to 90% of the popn* is immune because of past exposure.


What % of a given popn are exposed varies around the world by country, & within countries by region.
Some countries have very-low numbers of ppl positive for Toxo-exposure; others, practically everyone 
has been exposed by the age of 10-years.

:blush: "immune" can be translated as "already-parasitized". 


Toby Tyler said:


> The main concern is [fetal exposure in utero] to a new Toxo infection [prior to] antibodies.


Uterine exposure has the most-catastrophic & immediate impact; it's easily seen & measured.

Exposure for adults, which is virtually asymptomatic & becomes a chronic condition, is much harder 
to evaluate in terms of risk, potential injury, & so on.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> ...if up to 90% of the popn is immune because of past exposure, doesn't that refute any of these studies,
> since almost everyone will have some antibodies to Toxo-G anyway?


no - 
Past-exposure & a dormant infection with Toxo-parasites means U have no overt symptoms; 
U have no fever, rash, GI issues, unco-ordinated muscle movement, balance issues,... nada.

HOWEVER if U are positive for Toxo, U have specific added risks, due to risky behavior:
for instance, speeding while driving, driving after drinking alcohol, & other dangerous "free-will" choices
*increase* among the subset of ppl who are Toxo-positive.

IOW, "free will", at least insofar as it refers to choosing dangerous behaviors, is not nearly as "free" as we thought.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

All I know is that I have had to been exposed many times over in my lifetime toToxo-G. Hell, we used to play in a sandbox as children that neighborhood cats would poop in, in addition to sneaking raw meat from the fridge. Probably without ever washing our hands in between now that I think of it.... 

As an adult have taken most precautions being a germaphobe, even use a separate cutting board for meat/poultry, veggies, fruit etc. Color coded no less.  Cats dishes are washed completely separate with a boiling water rinse.

I think it just goes back to my original ?....what came first, the chicken or the egg?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> ... living in the country, I certainly [won't] complain if a mouse/ mole/ vole/ shrew gets in the house
> and one of the cats devours it.


errrm - When i refer to *keeping wildlife safe from cats* or *preventing cats eating small-animals*,
the presumption is that the wildlife are outside, not "in". :laugh:

i grew-up on a family farm; we had a lot fewer invading rodents after we PLUGGED all the pipe-access 
& other openings with super-fine steel wool. :wink: Worked a charm; they can't chew thru it, nor shove it aside.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

LOL, yes seriously I do seldom get the varmints in my cabin, between steel wool plugs, which is an excellent tip, and I suppose just the scent of three cats. Have not had an indoor rodent for quite some time.

But they do somehow still make it in very occasionally. The worst are the tiny little prehistoric looking shrews. Have not had a mouse in years though. 

Now I have had a bear try to break in. Twice.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

But isn't risk-taking a good thing? All the ads say "Just do it" etc etc. What about business risk takers like Bill Gates, Richard Branson, etc? Sportsmen? Are they teeming with toxo? One of my weaknesses is being a scaredy cat, not taking risks. Does that mean I am toxo-free?


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

koekemakranka said:


> But isn't risk-taking a good thing? All the ads say "Just do it" etc etc. What about business risk takers like Bill Gates, Richard Branson, etc? Sportsmen? Are they *teeming with toxo*? One of my weaknesses is being a scaredy cat, not taking risks. Does that mean I am toxo-free?


:lol::lol::lol: _Totally_ teeming with toxo!

Nah, not _toxo-free,_ just not getting your recommended daily dose of toxo. Toxo deficiency I reckon. :001_tt1:


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Toby Tyler said:


> LOL, yes seriously I do seldom get the varmints in my cabin, between steel wool plugs, which is an excellent tip, and I suppose just the scent of three cats. Have not had an indoor rodent for quite some time.
> 
> But they do somehow still make it in very occasionally. The worst are the tiny little prehistoric looking shrews. Have not had a mouse in years though.
> 
> Now I have had a bear try to break in. Twice.


We have millions of them, we have holes everywhere in the garden, down the side of the house, our rockery in the front garden is like a mouse hotel - you can see them all coming out of their holes at certain points in the day! 

Doesn't matter what we do, they are everywhere so I'm grateful that one of the cats at least helps us out keeping the numbers down. Every evening we hear them scurrying about under the floor boards so we have put traps down under there but am tempted to stick Winnie under there for a while 

We get the odd shrew as well but Winnie doesn't like them as much as they don't tend to fight back as much as the mice - she's a bit of a sadist tbh


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> We have millions of them, we have holes everywhere in the garden, down the side of the house, our rockery in the front garden is like a mouse hotel - you can see them all coming out of their holes at certain points in the day!
> 
> Doesn't matter what we do, they are everywhere so I'm grateful that one of the cats at least helps us out keeping the numbers down. Every evening we hear them scurrying about under the floor boards so we have put traps down under there but am tempted to stick Winnie under there for a while
> 
> ...


Outside there are entire villages, intricate and elaborate mole hotels that span 10 feet or more.  Fox and other wildlife keep them down somewhat, but I do see them poking their heads out. I bought something to smoke them out, but didn't have the heart to actually use it. There is a chipmunk that lives under the house, and holes everywhere in the garden.

Shortly after moving to the cabins, one night as we were about to fall asleep there was a loud rustling in the attic. Ex husband took a broom and started poking at the ceiling to get it to shut up. When that didn't stop the ruckus, he went up in the attic with a BB gun and actually shot the offending rodent. :001_tt1:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Every evening we hear them scurrying about under the floorboards, so we've put traps down... there...


Traps must be pulled out to remove the corpse, as even a mouse-carcass creates an awful odor 
if it begins to decay; we had a mouse die inside the walls, & the smell was not only disgusting but also
distinctive: to this day, "dead mouse" is something i react to, even if i only get a whiff of it, blecch.

i'd go round the house & seal every single gap - steel-wool [super-fine 0000 grade, for fine sanding], 
EXPANDING FOAM for cracks in masonry or gaps where stone meets wood frame, pack the wire-tunnels 
& pipe-access points, EVERYthing U can find; mice can slip thru an opening the size of a nickel, easily.

Even the holes drilled for cable-TV or phone-lines can be large-enuf to be inviting to a mouse, 
& sealing them only helps to reduce drafts, insect infestations, & other household hassles. :yesnod:

Roaches, earwigs, pill-bugs, ladybug beetles, stinkbugs, & the like, all have to find a hole to come in - 
i'd just as soon they stay OUT, thanks.  I do have a truce with spiders: they can't survive without prey,
so they're on my side. :laugh: My current apt has ZERO insects whatever - no spiders, nada.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> as even a mouse-carcass creates an awful odor if it begins to decay; we had a mouse die inside the walls, & the smell was not only disgusting but also
> distinctive: to this day, *"dead mouse" is something i react to, even if i only get a whiff of it, blecch.
> *
> i'd go round the house & seal every single gap - steel-wool [super-fine 0000 grade, for fine sanding],
> ...


Swear I can smell a LIVE mouse a mile away, and also react severely if I smell a dead mouse. My last house was new construction, but had way more mice getting in than my current old leaky cabin.

Once there was a mouse that got int the heating vent and died. I tore the whole basement apart trying to find where the smell was coming from. Finally my nose led me to said vent and sure enough, very dead mouse. 

Actually got broken in to mice in that house. In the beginning would literally stand on a chair and scream.  Am still somewhat terrified of them. Ex husband was relegated to the mouse tasks.

Can't begin to tell you how bad these old cabins were when first moved into. We had to take out the flooring under the sinks and remove whole colonies that had nested and died. 

Sealed as many holes as possible with steel-wool and expanding foam. Has made a huge difference as far any getting in. A mouse doesn't have a chance in my house with the cats. Shrews and smaller rodents/insects do still get in though. _Went smaller than the size of a nickle, more like the size of a dime _


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> EVERYthing U can find; mice can slip thru an opening the size of a *nickel*, easily.


 *nickle*...what are U a Yank???  :laugh:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> *nickle*... what are U, a Yank???  :laugh:


of course!  Massachusetts wasn't in the UK, last i checked... unless we've seceded, 
& that must have been very recent, indeed?...


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Ahh yes, but these daze ya never know 

Born in CA, raised in IA, moved to LA (as in Louisiana) after college, now live in CO.

They seriously called me a Yankee in Louisiana.  All the time. Not Yank, Yankee.  :001_tt1: :wink:


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> They seriously called me a Yankee in Louisiana.  All the time.
> Not Yank, Yankee.  :001_tt1: :wink:


i believe it - just spent the past decade in Tidewater-VA [the 7-cities area, 
Norfolk, Va bch, Chesapeake, Newport News, Hampton, ...], 
& i was a "damned Yankee" there, too. ::shrug::

i thought my birth-state was conservative; Ha!  Little did i know; the _Olde Dominion_ makes Pennsy 
look like California on a bad day - i swear, there are folks there who'd fight the Civil War all over again,
& who believe the worst thing America ever did was give women the right to vote. :nonod:

y'all might think i'm joking; nope, i swear that if i had offered dog-training classes whilst wearing 
a corset, hoop-skirt & crinolines, i could have quadrupled the number of clients. The "great state" of VA 
spends so much time looking back longingly to the 'good old days' that she's got a perpetual crick in her neck.
:nonod:


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

...and being called a Yankee, especially a _damn Yankee_ is NOT _necessarily_ meant as a term of endearment... :wink:

Oh don't get me started. :nonod: :crazy: :lol: :crying:


----------



## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

Toby Tyler said:


> Most heathy adults have been exposed to toxoplasmosis at some point. Up to 90% of the population is immune because of past exposure. The main concern is for a pregnant woman exposing her fetus to a new toxoplasmosis infection when it hasn't yet developed antibodies.
> 
> Toxoplasmosis Symptoms Information


Or people who have compromised immune systems. The same applies to older animals who have been lifelong asymptomatic carriers. Kittens, of course are the main targets where illness ensues as a result of tox exposure.


----------



## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Personally, I worry about Salmonella more than anything in my kitchen and take precautions accordingly. Are there any studies on permanent effects of infection with Salmonella?

Salmonella enterocolitis: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Toby Tyler said:


> ...I worry about Salmonella more than anything in my kitchen and take precautions accordingly.
> Are there any studies on permanent effects of infection with Salmonella?


Salmonella-infections are usually mild & passing, with diarrhea & not much else; most recover w/o medical
attn, the serious to severe ones need meds & / or hospital care.

Don't know of any studies, nor of permanent FX [other than liver / kidney / gut insults, which are repairable, 
assuming the patient survives]. As ever, elders, infants, & immune-compromised folks are at higher risk.

The more-malicious _E. coli_ created & maintained by CAFO-feeding in industrial /conventional-Ag 
is much-more dangerous & lethal than Salmonella. Simply feeding cattle, hogs & poultry a more-natural 
[cheaper!] diet of cellulose for cattle & no Dead/Down/Diseased meats as protein, we can starve-out 
the acid-tolerant E. coli in the guts of livestock reared for meat, milk, & eggs, & make them healthier, 
& ourselves much-safer.

However, the Ag-Industrial complex LIKES the current system, is addicted to 'prophylactic antibiotics', 
& has zero desire to change their blind & dangerous ways. ::Shrug:: My suggestion: buy organic when U can,
patronize local as much as possible, avoid high-surface area meats [burger, diced, sausage], & wash meat cuts
before cutting them to usable size. A safe veg-based salad wash can be used to remove as many nasties as 
possible from the meat surface before cutting it [which carries any surface nasties into the interior].


----------

