# Restrictions



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Do you but restrictions on your kittens you sell for breeding? if yes, why? if not, why? 

Just going on from the other post.


----------



## Emmag (Apr 4, 2008)

Hi, I've just purchased a girl kitten on the active. The breeder has put restrictions on her. The kittens she has, I cannot sell on the active, although I can keep one myself and breed from her.

I can understand her reasons as she has worked really hard to get the standard of cats that she has.


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

awww congrats on your new girl


----------



## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*Nope don't put restrictions on my kittens. Don't believe in it, as said on other thread I think it's detremental to the breed. After all most of us are breeding to preserve our particular breeds, so why put retrictions on them makes no sense. None of my breeding cats have come with any either.*


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

No. I don't believe in written restrictions. I don't think I have any right to dictate to other breeders what they can and can't do. If I didn't trust someone with one of my kittens, they wouldn;t get one.

I think a lot of breeders have worked very hard to achieve a good standard but I'm sorry, I don't think it gives them any right at all to tell others what to do!

I would refuse to buy a kitten that came with restrictions.



Emmag said:


> Hi, I've just purchased a girl kitten on the active. The breeder has put restrictions on her. The kittens she has, I cannot sell on the active, although I can keep one myself and breed from her.
> 
> I can understand her reasons as she has worked really hard to get the standard of cats that she has.


----------



## Guest (Oct 21, 2008)

I only have restrictions on one of my girls and that is that I can't keep or sell any studs on active for 3 years from the time I bought her. I think it's fair enough as it has come from the breeder before her.

If I do sell any of mine on active, I won't be placing any restrictions on them. I believe that the breeder you have sold to has paid you money for a cat and therefore it us up to them to make any breeding decisions about it.

Lou
X


----------



## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Do people feel the same about stud restrictions as they do about kitten restrictions?


----------



## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

*In what way Leah*


----------



## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Selk67U2 said:


> *In what way Leah*


Well for instance if you are allowed into Stud, but the stud owner tells you no kittens from the litter active unless you keep one, or no males active ?


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Some stud owners say you can't sell any kittens on the active. Personally if you don't like it then don't use that stud. If you don't mind and abide by the stud owners wishes then that's ok. I wouldn't be put off using a stud if he had restrictions at all.


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

wouldn't touch that stud with a barge pole!!

I'm quite capable of making my own decisions about what kittens I keep, or where I choose to let them go to.



Leah100 said:


> Well for instance if you are allowed into Stud, but the stud owner tells you no kittens from the litter active unless you keep one, or no males active ?


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

i have a restriction on one of my girls thats exactly the same as yours hun x i don't mind it as her breeder did import her boy and doesn't sell for breeding usually x
my boys are both on restriction as closed stud - though i am asking the euro breeder about letting 2 breeder friends of mine use him for one girl - but will be restrictions on this xx

Any girls or boys that i sell for breeding from my imported girls/boys will have restrictions x

i didn't just pay out 1500-1700 a cat just to have the lines diluted straight off lol xx

My english lines aren't so bad but i only really sell for breeding to people i know anyhow and i have asked that if they want to sell for breeding that we both discuss it first - it may be that a BYB tries to get an active kitten and that they do not know it's a BYB - so always better to discuss and find out what each other knows about the enquirer xx

I can understand what you mean Wendy about bettering the breed though xx


----------



## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> wouldn't touch that stud with a barge pole!!
> 
> I'm quite capable of making my own decisions about what kittens I keep, or where I choose to let them go to.


Agreed, but it's not always so simple when you are starting out, it is not always easy to get a stud owner to allow you in when you are very new .


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Yes, I do appreciate that. I was lucky when I first started breeding, I think the only restriction I was given was no males on the active register - and it was only a verbal agreement. 
But I do think stud owners should try to discuss things with new breeders and educate them, rather than slapping a load of restrictions on them. It's not very friendly IMO.



Leah100 said:


> Agreed, but it's not always so simple when you are starting out, it is not always easy to get a stud owner to allow you in when you are very new .


----------



## Selk67U2 (May 5, 2008)

> Well for instance if you are allowed into Stud, but the stud owner tells you no kittens from the litter active unless you keep one, or no males active ?


*Ahh, rt, ok. No would'nt use the stud*



> But I do think stud owners should try to discuss things with new breeders and educate them, rather than slapping a load of restrictions on them. It's not very friendly IMO.


*Totally agree with you KK. I was very lucky and had breeders just like that If I don't want any kittens used for breeding, they get neutered, simple as*


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

I accept some restrictions and I might very well sell breeding cats with restrictions. I don't think it's as easy as "all restrictions are bad for the breed". It depends on the nature of them!

If I sell a stud with the restriction: he's only allowed to produce 30 offspring and not more than two kittens from each litter is allowed to be used in breeding, how will this damage the breed?

The only thing that happens is that I and the new owner agree on using him sparingly. This is a good thing since using a stud sparingly reduces the risk for spreading defects and diseases within the breed and it lowers the risk for inbreeding problems in the future generations.

I've seen how unwise use of studs and their offspring can have a detrimental effect on the breed... effects that easily could have been avoided. 

Restrictions in themselves aren't bad but they can be used unwisely.

The only breeding cats I've sold have been sold without restrictions since the buyer is a close friend of mine. She wouldn't do anything that I don't agree with. However, it's not realistic to think I'd become so close to everyone that wanna buy a breeding cat from me.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

fluffypurrs said:


> Do you but restrictions on your kittens you sell for breeding? if yes, why? if not, why?


Absolutely not. 1) If someone is fit to have a kitten for breeding, they are fit to be trusted to make their own decisions. 2) The first kittens I bred were Burmese and Burmese have serious inbreeding problems already - and they are by no means the worst breed for that. Inbreeding is seriously detrimental to the health of the breed. Anything I can do to buck that trend, I will do.

Liz


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I think it depends on the reasons for setting restrictions. Some reasons are very valid I think.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Emmag said:


> Hi, I've just purchased a girl kitten on the active. The breeder has put restrictions on her. The kittens she has, I cannot sell on the active, although I can keep one myself and breed from her.


The problem with attitudes like that - though I very much understand your wish to get a good breeding girl - is that it begs for a two-tier system. Think of it this way. Suppose some breeder who is perhaps fairly new or perhaps does not have the best of breeding stock, is willing to let kittens go on the active without restrictions, and the breeders with the best cats put all sorts of restrictions on. Those who cannot or do not want to meet the excessive requirements of the more restrictive breeders will simply get a kitten from someone who will let them have one. If this is perpetuated (and it will be), you end up with a group of cats winning the shows but not allowing anyone else into their little clique, and a group of breeders who accept that they are never likely to get very far at shows and so stop showing. Result, a two-tier breed.

I let a boy go on the active (and a girl too) from my very first litter - no-one had told me it wasn't done. As it happens the boy was pretty good. When I later wanted a boy myself, I advertised for one, and the only reply I got was from the lady I had sold the girl to - it was that girl's son. And he wasn't very good. So I started with a stud that was a) too closely related to all my girls and b) not very good anyway. As it happens there was little if any harm done to the breed because I never put him (or his successor) on the stud list, but there _could_ have been quite a lot of progeny (I wish there were still some around, i would love to get back into that line just for old time's sake!)

If I ever manage to get a good boy (I have high hopes  ), then he will be at public stud and with no restrictions as a matter of principle. And any good kitten I breed is available on the active to the right home, again as a matter of principle.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

FluffyCatLover said:


> I only have restrictions on one of my girls and that is that I can't keep or sell any studs on active for 3 years from the time I bought her. I think it's fair enough as it has come from the breeder before her.


That seems rather extreme because for many queens, their breeding career could be over by then! What is the reasoning behind it, do you know?

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> Yes, I do appreciate that. I was lucky when I first started breeding, I think the only restriction I was given was no males on the active register - and it was only a verbal agreement.


I was even luckier - no restrictions at all. I just wish I had made better use of my luck


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> If I sell a stud with the restriction: he's only allowed to produce 30 offspring


Never heard of that one - is it real or hypothetical?

Liz


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> The problem with attitudes like that - though I very much understand your wish to get a good breeding girl - is that it begs for a two-tier system. Think of it this way. Suppose some breeder who is perhaps fairly new or perhaps does not have the best of breeding stock, is willing to let kittens go on the active without restrictions, and the breeders with the best cats put all sorts of restrictions on. Those who cannot or do not want to meet the excessive requirements of the more restrictive breeders will simply get a kitten from someone who will let them have one. If this is perpetuated (and it will be), you end up with a group of cats winning the shows but not allowing anyone else into their little clique, and a group of breeders who accept that they are never likely to get very far at shows and so stop showing. Result, a two-tier breed.


That's a quite poor argument against restrictions. No one is forced to buy bad breeding stock or breeding stock that don't hold up to the standards you've set. Yes, you might have to compromise with your principles in order to get the breeding stock you want and you might even have to wait a litter bit longer than you would have wished for... but no one is forcing anyone to buy cats of lesser quality.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> That's a quite poor argument against restrictions. No one is forced to buy bad breeding stock or breeding stock that don't hold up to the standards you've set. Yes, you might have to compromise with your principles in order to get the breeding stock you want and you might even have to wait a litter bit longer than you would have wished for... but no one is forcing anyone to buy cats of lesser quality.


I agree there is no force, but it is going to happen anyway. If someone wants a stud badly enough, they will get one one way or another. Better (assuming cat welfare is not an issue) to let them have a good one!

Liz


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> Never heard of that one - is it real or hypothetical?
> 
> Liz


Quite real. Another version is that the male isn't allowed to produce more than 5% of the number of born kittens during each year he's active (this is a recommendation from a Swedish geneticist).

Studs producing to many offspring is a problem, at least here it is.


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> I agree there is no force, but it is going to happen anyway. If someone wants a stud badly enough, they will get one one way or another. Better (assuming cat welfare is not an issue) to let them have a good one!
> 
> Liz


Yeah, but the ones that use restictions aren't the ones to be blamed. If someone lowers the standard that's a choice they make on their own. If I choose to buy a less good stud instead for buying a stud with restrictions (lets say the restricions are that I'm only allowed to breed him with females within the cattery and I can't sell any offspring for breeding) that's a choice *I* make. No one else should be blamed for it. I could choose to accept the restrictions and get a better stud, my choice.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> Yeah, but the ones that use restictions aren't the ones to be blamed. If someone lowers the standard that's a choice they make on their own. If I choose to buy a less good stud instead for buying a stud with restrictions (lets say the restricions are that I'm only allowed to breed him with females within the cattery and I can't sell any offspring for breeding) that's a choice *I* make. No one else should be blamed for it. I could choose to accept the restrictions and get a better stud, my choice.


Yes you could, but equally the stud owners who put on all those restrictions could help enormously by letting the best available cats be bred from freely - this would also help to reduce the serious inbreeding which is a real health issue. It was frightening, lookign at Burmese pedigrees recently, to find that the top winning cats - and the best type kittens - came from the same lines I was using more than a decade ago. It's more than sixteen years since I got my first girl, and today's top pedigrees share many of her ancestors. That suggests very serious inbreeding to me  (and use of quite aged studs too, for that matter!)

Liz


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I actually quite like the idea of a male not producing more than a certain number of offspring, but you can't really make it an exact figure - better to make it a number of litters. 
If I sold a boy for stud I would make sure the owner agreed not to keep the boy entire beyond the age of 5 years or so. So that would have a similar effect to limiting the number of kittens he produced. A pet hate of mine is studs being used until they die, and kept outdoors virtually all their life. That's almost cruelty IMO.
We have this problem in UK Burmese - certain studs have been extensively used, there are all sorts of ridiculous restrictions, and of course the breed is now horrendously inbred 



Cerridwen said:


> Quite real. Another version is that the male isn't allowed to produce more than 5% of the number of born kittens during each year he's active (this is a recommendation from a Swedish geneticist).
> 
> Studs producing to many offspring is a problem, at least here it is.


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Earlier this year I worked out the inbreeding coefficient of about 50 Burmese studs, using 16 generations to calculate in Breeders Assistant. The results were quite scary - a good percentage were over 30%, and a not insigificant number were over 40%. The average for UK Burmese seems to be 20-25% which is not good at all.



lizward said:


> Yes you could, but equally the stud owners who put on all those restrictions could help enormously by letting the best available cats be bred from freely - this would also help to reduce the serious inbreeding which is a real health issue. It was frightening, lookign at Burmese pedigrees recently, to find that the top winning cats - and the best type kittens - came from the same lines I was using more than a decade ago. It's more than sixteen years since I got my first girl, and today's top pedigrees share many of her ancestors. That suggests very serious inbreeding to me  (and use of quite aged studs too, for that matter!)
> 
> Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> I actually quite like the idea of a male not producing more than a certain number of offspring, but you can't really make it an exact figure - better to make it a number of litters.


I agree, that does sound like a perfectly reasonable idea (and if used properly, if my brain is functioning, could also help with the inbreeding problem). Litters rather than kittens though - otherwise you are going to be playing a sort of feline pontoon withn the last litter, he's sired 26 so far, shall I let him sire another litter or will the girl have more than four? 

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> Earlier this year I worked out the inbreeding coefficient of about 50 Burmese studs, using 16 generations to calculate in Breeders Assistant. The results were quite scary - a good percentage were over 30%, and a not insigificant number were over 40%. The average for UK Burmese seems to be 20-25% which is not good at all.


Could you explain, please, what the inbreeding coefficient is - in other words, what would be 100%? A clone or a full sibling, or what?

Liz (who ought to know!)

Edit: answering my own question!

Demystifying Inbreeding Coefficients


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> Yes you could, but equally the stud owners who put on all those restrictions could help enormously by letting the best available cats be bred from freely - this would also help to reduce the serious inbreeding which is a real health issue.


Studs available freely can also cause significant inbreeding problems. We have that problem in Swedish Devon Rex pedigrees. A few males (non-restricted) became over represented in our pedigrees, not due to actuarally producing to many offspring but due to their offspring being used far to generous in breeding. These males are still a problem, 15 years later or so. It's hard to find pedigrees without them meaning... it's hard not to inbreed.

In order to solve inbreeding you need more males active in breeding, not necessarily using the ones already active even more.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> In order to solve inbreeding you need more males active in breeding, not necessarily using the ones already active even more.


Precisely - and how do you get that if you don't let male kittens go on the active register? If the best studs were not restricted, people would be able to keep active register descendants!

Liz


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> Precisely - and how do you get that if you don't let male kittens go on the active register? If the best studs were not restricted, people would be able to keep active register descendants!
> 
> Liz


Restrictions doesn't have to mean fewer studs in breeding. As I stated earlier, how restrictions will affect the breed depends on their nature.

Even if "the best studs" only have active offspring in the catteries they live in, they'll probably have grandchildren outside the catteries. I don't know of many breeders that have restrictions more than one generation ahead.

If I buy a stud and I'm not allowed to sell offspring for breeding it's up to me to keep offspring in my cattery. Offspring that themselves one day will have kittens and I'm most likely allowed to sell their offspring for breeding. This means that the bloodlines from the stud I bought are spread, just in a slower pace than if he would have been an unrestricted stud used freely.

And spreading bloodlines slowly isn't a bad thing. It gives you time to evaluate them, healthwise and when it comes to type.

If "the best studs" were used freely there would be a risk that they turn into matadors, everyone wants to use "the best studs" so they produce more offspring than suitable and other possible studs (that might not be as successful at shows but might have very valuable genes) are forgotten. This would have the implication that fewer males are active in breeding due to "the best ones" being bred freely.


----------



## Tasha (Sep 23, 2008)

theres a case floating about where a cat soldon the non active register as a judge found it inappropriate for a breeder to dictate the use of the animal aftr it leaves there care


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Tasha said:


> theres a case floating about where a cat soldon the non active register as a judge found it inappropriate for a breeder to dictate the use of the animal aftr it leaves there care


You mean a judge bred from a non active cat?? xx


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> Even if "the best studs" only have active offspring in the catteries they live in, they'll probably have grandchildren outside the catteries. I don't know of many breeders that have restrictions more than one generation ahead.


I know of one breeder trying to impose restrictions four generations ahead!



> If I buy a stud and I'm not allowed to sell offspring for breeding it's up to me to keep offspring in my cattery.


Yes, you can do this of course, provided the restriction does not extend to you keeping one - apparently some do!



> If "the best studs" were used freely there would be a risk that they turn into matadors, everyone wants to use "the best studs" so they produce more offspring than suitable and other possible studs (that might not be as successful at shows but might have very valuable genes) are forgotten. This would have the implication that fewer males are active in breeding due to "the best ones" being bred freely.


Yes that is certainly true.

Liz


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

It's a minefield isn't it? my kitten is on the active register but her breeder told me she wasn't allowed to sell the boys on active. She hasn't given me any restrictions on breeding from Mai Tai.


----------



## Tigerkatz (Sep 29, 2008)

in my breed (Bengals) 
I purchased my new boy with restrictions... and many of teh Bengal breeders have restrictions on the stud boys to protect the lines... when someone spends thousands of pounds to bring a boy over and sell a kitten on active register I can understand them wanting to ensure that the line is not over bred.

My boy is allowed for my own use only and not public stud. I cannot sell him on for public stud (unless agreed before hand and prior to a certain age) Also and stud boys produced by him will also be sold as "not for public stud" 
I am ok with these terms... there are many out there with harsher terms. I can understand why the terms are used.. so quite happy with them.
I guess if I wasn't I could go buy a joe blog stud boy from down the road who has his lines in every cat going... hmmmmm I lurv my bengal boy instead


----------



## Tasha (Sep 23, 2008)

LousKoonz said:


> You mean a judge bred from a non active cat?? xx


the cat owner had legal connections took the breeder to court the judge ruled in favour of the cat owner who bred from it but the case has set a precident as a different rule can not be inforced if some one else goes to court so in law restrictions are worthless you just need the funds to attend court for the right to do as you please

I will try ad find the case


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

Tasha said:


> the cat owner had legal connections took the breeder to court the judge ruled in favour of the cat owner who bred from it but the case has set a precident as a different rule can not be inforced if some one else goes to court so in law restrictions are worthless you just need the funds to attend court for the right to do as you please
> 
> I will try ad find the case


ah i get you now lol xx

i think i'm gonna get my contracts definitely looked at by my solicitor - for peace of mind lol xx


----------



## Guest (Oct 22, 2008)

lizward said:


> That seems rather extreme because for many queens, their breeding career could be over by then! What is the reasoning behind it, do you know?
> 
> Liz


Not sure to be honest - think it is because the Mum is a German import and they don't want their lines to be diluted too much. I'm not too worried though because I already have 2 studs and to be honest, I don't think I would want to sell my boys for stud anyway- not until I was much more experienced to know whether they would make a good stud or not.

Lou
X


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> I know of one breeder trying to impose restrictions four generations ahead!


I don't know about other than Swedish "customs" but four generations ahead is unheard of hear and if someone would try to inforce restrictions that far ahead... well, I doubt it would be many enough for it to actuarally affect the breed. The more common rule is that breeders have restrictions on the first generation and maybe, just maybe on the second.



lizward said:


> Yes, you can do this of course, provided the restriction does not extend to you keeping one - apparently some do!


But in that case there's no point buying the cat first of all. At least not for me. I wanna be able to continue my breeding program and that's quite impossible if I'm not allowed to keep anything to breed. There would be no point for any breeder to buy such a cat.


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I have used studs that have restrictions on active boys resulting from the mating. However, as those restrictions are invariably not explained to you up front, prior to the deed being done and you only become aware of them when handed your mating certificate, I don't think that if pushed they would stand up in court. The GCCF do not take any notice of any restrictions either. That came as a surprise to me, as I though they would, but its just between you and the stud owner.


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

If the stud owner let you know up front then I would respect their wishes. Infact I'd make sure I asked for any restrictions they have before I used a Stud. If they then turn around and change their minds then that's a bit wrong.


----------



## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

I was made aware of the male progeny restriction immediately, before my girl ever went. I respected it and I understand the reasons behind it. After all, this lady has not had a chance to get to really know me yet, and so many people don't really understand the huge commitment they need to make when taking on a stud. I am well aware that I am no where near experienced enough to own one, or to know who should buy one, so I had no problem with the restriction, she was only thinking of the cats' welfare at the end of the day and I totally support that.


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

i just don't think there is anything wrong in having restrictions on using a stud or getting a queen with restrictions so long as it's a popular breed or there are no problems like some of the breeds mentioned above.


----------



## Rraa (Apr 15, 2008)

Whilst I can see there may be a positive side to having some restrictions, I think that some are unreasonable and unenforceable too. 

My own opinions are:

1 if I take my queen to a stud, I pay the stud fee, I expect the mating to be monitored, I will accept advice but because MY QUEEN is the one who carries and nurses the babies and because she is cared for by ME, then I shall be the one who decides whether a kitten goes on the active register or not. So far, I have always insisted that the boys are on the inactive register and 99.9% of my girls are also registered as "inactive". I would walk away from a stud whose owner imposes too many restrictions. 

2 If I buy a girl kitten, I pay the breeder the fee required and expect to see the relevant documents. Whislt any advice is welcome, I shall not buy if there are restrictions imposed. If I wanted to buy a girl on the active, I would say so at first enquiry so that the breeder can decide to see me or turn me away before any further time is wasted. 

3. If I let someone have a kitten from my queens, then boy kittens are on the inactive register and I ask (but cannot impose) that the kitten/cat lives indoors. Similarly, a girl kitten is usually on the inactive register, though if someone tells me they want a future queen, then if I have a kitten who I think is fit enough and of good enough quality and also provided that I am confident the person is the right one, then I shall be prepared to mentor if necessary. Its the same with showing - I do not insist that a kitten is shown, but if someone were to want to show a kitten, it would be wise to say so in order that I can select the right kitten for them or to point them towards a breeder who has the right kitten if I don't. This is sometimes a condition which some breeders impose when selling a kitten - they want some of the limelight ...


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I think if you have had restrictions explained to you before hand then you are lucky. It has happened to me twice now. Nothing said, but the restriction appears on the mating certificate. I do not mind about active boys. The time I want to keep my own boy from such a restricted mating, I did ask the stud owner first and she agreed, although I was surprised at the time that nothing was required from her to confirm that to the GCCF, which is why I added my comment about them not upholding any placed restrictions. I suppose the reason that restriction applied is important. If it is for welfare reasons then OK, but then an active girl is open to possibly more abuse in the wrong hands than an active boy. If it's just because "business" is being taken from the father then that's not quite so commendable.

Personally, I think if you are responsible and knowledgeable to have a breeding queen then the same goes for a stud. There is alot of initial outlay in housing and you do have to make sure you have appropriate time for them, but other than that they are just cats - with bits - they don't behave any differently to other cats, mine don't anyway. I wouldn't keep or use a boy that needed special "handling". Having outside queens in and being responsible for someone elses cat is a great responsibility that you have to think very carefully about, but one for your own cats, I do not see the problem. They are just doing what cats do quite naturally after all.


----------



## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Yes I agree, I didn't mind what the stud owner asked, as it was my very first litter, I do hope though , that after she got to know me better and/or my experience increased that she would be able to trust me. If not, then my decision to go ahead would probably be different. 
I should have made clear too , that what I meant by not knowing the commitment you need for your own stud comes from watching lurking and reading across lists when sometimes people have not realised that you need to be able to spend a lot of time with your stud as he matures and when he goes outside, not just put him with a girl when he's old enough. 
The studs that I really admire, are the ones not just with looks and lines behind them, but the ones that have had so much love and contact that their temperament just shines through.


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Saikou said:


> I have used studs that have restrictions on active boys resulting from the mating. However, as those restrictions are invariably not explained to you up front, prior to the deed being done and you only become aware of them when handed your mating certificate, I don't think that if pushed they would stand up in court. The GCCF do not take any notice of any restrictions either. That came as a surprise to me, as I though they would, but its just between you and the stud owner.


I always ask before I use the stud. The stud owner cannot come after the mating and try to put restrictions on the offspring. Such things have to be discussed before the mating takes place.

I would not accept restrictions given after the mating.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Saikou said:


> I think if you have had restrictions explained to you before hand then you are lucky. It has happened to me twice now. Nothing said, but the restriction appears on the mating certificate.


I think that is appalling. I would be inclined to disregard it unless it was made clear up front, but the cat fancy is a funny place and you might well find yourself ostracised if you ignored it.

Liz


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Yes - I know of a case (in Ocicats) where this happened (breeder disregarded restrictions) and it went to a court case......breeder who placed the restrictions did not win though, because basically these sort of restrictions on progeny cannot possibly be legally binding. It's more a matter of ethics as far as I can see.



lizward said:


> I think that is appalling. I would be inclined to disregard it unless it was made clear up front, but the cat fancy is a funny place and you might well find yourself ostracised if you ignored it.
> 
> Liz


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I would say that unless those restrictions were explained to you upfront, and there was a document signed by each party as having understood and agreed to those terms then no it would not be legally binding.


----------



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

No I doubt it would be legally binding but if you agree to the restrictions (if you're told about them) then hopefully the restrictions will be followed.


----------



## bengalpudel (Oct 25, 2008)

Hi I am new to thos forum and just ready this.

I have bengalcats sice 3 years and had my first litter now.
I used a stud and I am not allowed to sell any boys on the aktive and I am not allowed to keep an aktive boy for myself.
I can do with the girls what i like to do.
My kittens are sold on the non aktive and must be spayed with 6 month. 

Sabrina


----------



## patsie (Feb 28, 2009)

We have bought a siamese kitten in november and the breeder did not tell us of any restrictions and can not see anything on her pedigree 
Does this mean there are no restrictions 
My husband (naughty boy) said he would ignore it and is sounds greedy on the breeders who want to sell kittens but do not want them breeding as they get it both ways 
I have no thoughts of our little girl breeding(and shes MY cat so he has no say) but it might change only if it was legal and above board 
How do we know if there are restrictions and how do people regulate it against people like my husband who would ignore restrictions


----------



## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Were you given a pink registration slip with your paperwork? That slip will very probably say non-active , as it sounds very much as if you bought her as a pet. 
If she is inactive you really shouldn't breed from her. You will not find a registered stud owner who will let you come in to them with an unregistered or inactive cat.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

If your kitten is GCCF registered you should have been given a pink (or blue) transfer slip. On this, if the cat is not to be bred from, it will say so. if it says nothing, you can legitimately breed from her.

If you have no pink slip and there is no explanation for you not having one (there have been very serious delays at the GCCF office for some time but you should have it by now) then you have an unregistered pedigree. It si just possible (but unlikely) that she is registerable - in that case you would have a copy of the mating certificate. If you don't have that then she is not registerable, at least not as a pedigree.

No-one can stop you breeding from an unregistered cat and there is no GCCF rule forbidding it. That said, the chances of finding a registered stud who will take an unregistered girl are very low. There are certain limited circumstances in which I would do it, but I am probably very liberal compared to most breeders. I would do it if the cat's owner agreed to register the kittens and, if it's possible to do so, the mother too (it might be possible to register a cat with two unknown parents perhaps, I honestly don't know, it is certainly possible to register a cat with one unknown parent). The reasoning behind this is that I would prefer to bring unregistered breeders into the GCCF (or another registering body) where their activities can be known about, rather than have them remain as BYBs.

The chances of finding a registered stud owner who will accept a non-active queen to stud are almost zero - that is clearly banned by the GCCF and they will fine any stud owner who does it. The law won't stop you but as a matter of ethics you certainly should not breed from a non-active cat. Some breeders charge more for a cat on the active register and may be prepared to consider changing your cat to the active register (only the breeder can do this) if you pay the extra she would have charged for an active register kitten.

The only way to be sure a non-active kitten is never bred from is to have it neutered before it ever leaves your house. This practice is becoming increasingly common and it is easy to see why. And it makes a lot of sense. Selling entire kittens on the non-active register, especially if you charge more for an active register kitten or simply make it very difficult for anyone to get an active register kitten, is almost inviting unscrupulous people to buck the system by breeding unregistered kittens.

The only way we can significantly reduce the breeding of urnegistered pedigrees is to make it either illegal (which we don't want to do if we've any sense - legislation would probably hurt us more than the people we are trying to stop) or uneconomic. We could make it uneconomic if we stopped selling non-active register entire kittens and removed all legitimate barriers to registration, that way the GCCF would be able to claim truthfully that there was absoltuely no legitimate reason for a pedigree kitten not to be registered and therefore that any unregistered kitten was likely to be non-pedigree.

Liz


----------



## thumbs (Mar 4, 2009)

just read throught this thread and i must say that it was really interesting, and now i have a few questions

what makes a 'good stud' a good stud?

with regards to inbreeding, say we were to follow a brother and sister in a line, how many generations down that line would it be safe to breed them, or would it not be done at all?

with regards to restrictions, i can see why they are in place, but if the goal is to further their line, why restrict? if there is only say, 1 kitten in a litter that makes a good future queen or stud, what singles it out from the rest of the litter? if a good breeder sells to another breeder that they know and trust, why restrict? why are the males more restricted or sold as nonactive than the females?

with regards to a breeding queen or stud, what qualities make a good breeding cat, that those sold as nonactive haven't got?


i am not a breeder, i have not the money, space or adequate time to give these wonderfull animals, but the more i read about breeding, the more interested i become, i cannot help myself, there is soooo much to learn, and understand. i have no intentions of becoming a breeder, but would dearly love to know more. the world of breeding and genetics and blood lines is a facinating place to loose myself, and i envy you guys immensly.

a lot of questions i know, but if they could be answered, here is the place to ask them:biggrin5:


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

thumbs said:


> what makes a 'good stud' a good stud?


I think thats similar to 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' to some extent, and depends what you are looking for. I look for good looking, correct boys with outcross pedigrees who have fabulous temperaments and who throw healthy kittens of very good type, with the 'look' I like.



thumbs said:


> with regards to inbreeding, say we were to follow a brother and sister in a line, how many generations down that line would it be safe to breed them, or would it not be done at all?


None, I would never put a brother/sister mating back into the gene pool. You have no idea what silent 'nasties' the offspring would be carrying - until usually its too late.



thumbs said:


> with regards to restrictions, i can see why they are in place, but if the goal is to further their line, why restrict?


Usually because the breeder whats to maintain control over their line. Their goal is to further their line themselves, not have it done in someone elses name, with someone else taking the credit. The flip side of that is commercial. If you have a popular stud, they don't want someone else breeding a better stud using their boy and have everyone flock to the new boy.

Restrictions should only be inplace for welfare control not gene control.



thumbs said:


> if there is only say, 1 kitten in a litter that makes a good future queen or stud, what singles it out from the rest of the litter?





thumbs said:


> with regards to a breeding queen or stud, what qualities make a good breeding cat, that those sold as nonactive haven't got?


Again it depends on the reason being kept active. For the most part the kitten should have the potential to be as close to the standard of points for their breed as possible. If you are looking at a potential public stud, then you probably want him to have title potential, exhibiting a bit of 'flash', with a fabulous temperament to match. For a girl, imo, flash is less important, temperament, correctness and size are all factors.



thumbs said:


> if a good breeder sells to another breeder that they know and trust, why restrict?


No idea, makes no sense to me.



thumbs said:


> why are the males more restricted or sold as nonactive than the females?


imo for the same reasons listed above over line control.


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

I was going to address your post later, but Saikou has covered everything i would have said too x


----------



## thumbs (Mar 4, 2009)

its all adding up lol, thanks for that. for some silly reason, i thought that a line was like father to kittens, then they have kittens etc down the generations, regardless of who owns them, but rather it is one persons cats and the offspring they produce for the owner, so they may keep one particular animal, an breed from that, then again in a future litter, and so the line stays with the one owner (have i got that right?)

a good stud is termed good for its characteristics, rather than the gene's it carries, although i know that the gene's are responsible for their markings etc, its the visible stuff that matters, coz u can't 'see' gene's, only what they make?



> None, I would never put a brother/sister mating back into the gene pool. You have no idea what silent 'nasties' the offspring would be carrying - until usually its too late.


even though they wouldn't be true brother and sister and only in that one generation way back down the line, because they would share that common gene factor?

i can't believe how much there is to breeding, its amazing


----------



## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

A 'line' is a kitten, back through their parents, back through their parents. If you sell a kitten for breeding to someone else, then that 'line' becomes part of someone elses 'line'.

This is more where people have show winning lines. Breeders place restrictions on offspring to ensure that someone else does not replicate and/or cash in on their show success, or stud business. If they have a stud that consistently produces show winners, they would not want a son of theirs in someone elses prefix doing the same - steals their thunder.

If you are picking a 'good stud' you can only go on their pedigree, what they look like and what their kittens are like - health, temperament and type. What they carry is important if you are looking to produce a certain colour or pattern, certainly. Even then its a lottery, you can only make your best guess that the stud will 'work' with your queen and produce what you want. If you get lucky the mix works.

By adding a brother/sister mating into the gene pool, you have the potential to weaken that gene pool. You could probably eventually breed out any issues that may cause, but why take the risk in the first place. More often than not, any problems are not immediately felt and come out generations later.


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Saikou has given some great answers. I'd just like to add two things. When it comes to restrictions, they should never be given for no good reason. The breeder has to be able to motivate them. Which motives that are OK is up to the buyer to decide.

And, why put restrictions on a stud cat when sold to a good friend... well, there are plenty of cases in the cat world when best friends have turned into the very worst of enemies. That being said, most breeders I know won't out retrictions on a cat when sold to a good friend. They trust their friends to use the cat wisely. However, not all breeding cats are sold to very good friends. Maybe you wanna help a rookie get started. He/she isn't your best friend but seems like a nice person, in such a vase you might wanna restrict the breeding cat some. Mostly because some breeders make it a habit to turn to rookies to get hold of breeding stock they aren't allowed to buy directly from the breeders of the breeding stock.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I never put restrictions on cats sold for breeding as a matter of principle and similarly I never put restrictions on my studs (if I bought in a new boy and the seller made that a condition then obviously I would abide by it for that one cat, but with my own bred cats, no). It seems to me to be counter-productive. Suppose you have a breed where the great majority of show winning breeders will not let kittens go for breeding and will not let kittens from their stud be used for breeding either (imposing "all males to be on the non-active register" is common, and it is not unheard of to require ALL kittens to be on the non-active register). A new breeder cannot get breeding stock from those show winning breeders so she must look elsewhere, and she will find when she looks elsewhere that there ARE breeders who will let her have breeding stock, but usually those breeders are not producing show winning kittens - they can't of course because they couldn't get the breeding stock either. So over time (and not very much time either) you end up with a two-tier breed where no-one can break in from the bottom tier to the top tier.

I can see this very clearly in one of my breeds (there are cats in the bottom tier that are descended from one of my top tier cats!) and am hoping that in time I might be able to break into the top tier again. I bought what I thought was a promising boy, no restrictions, and considered myself very fortunate (he had swept the board at his first show as a kitten). Unfortunately since coming here he managed to scorch his fur on a halogen heater - I left the room for a minute and came back to see smoke coming from him! - and now he has a patch of lighter coloured and coarse hair on his flank which I am hoping will go away. Still, at least it's not hereditary!

Liz


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

when a breed is first being established, there is often no option that to mate very close relatives such as mother/son, brother/sister etc. If you trace lines back to the origin of any breed you will find plenty of matings like this. No reason to do it once a breed is well established though.



thumbs said:


> its all adding up lol, thanks for that. for some silly reason, i thought that a line was like father to kittens, then they have kittens etc down the generations, regardless of who owns them, but rather it is one persons cats and the offspring they produce for the owner, so they may keep one particular animal, an breed from that, then again in a future litter, and so the line stays with the one owner (have i got that right?)
> 
> a good stud is termed good for its characteristics, rather than the gene's it carries, although i know that the gene's are responsible for their markings etc, its the visible stuff that matters, coz u can't 'see' gene's, only what they make?
> 
> ...


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

In general I agree - however I think it was Cerridwen on this forum who said that in her country, breeders might put a restriction on a stud that he was not to sire more than a certain number of kittens or litters. I actually think this is a very good idea, because it could be seriously damaging to the gene pool to use a particular stud too frequently. I've been shocked at the overuse of a particular Burmese stud in the last few years, for instance - he often appears in pedigrees 3 or 4 times within 4 generations and he is highly inbred himself! 
Of course this high level of inbreeding does tend to produce the typiest cats, and many breeders cannot see beyond the show bench 



lizward said:


> I never put restrictions on cats sold for breeding as a matter of principle and similarly I never put restrictions on my studs (if I bought in a new boy and the seller made that a condition then obviously I would abide by it for that one cat, but with my own bred cats, no). It seems to me to be counter-productive. Suppose you have a breed where the great majority of show winning breeders will not let kittens go for breeding and will not let kittens from their stud be used for breeding either (imposing "all males to be on the non-active register" is common, and it is not unheard of to require ALL kittens to be on the non-active register). A new breeder cannot get breeding stock from those show winning breeders so she must look elsewhere, and she will find when she looks elsewhere that there ARE breeders who will let her have breeding stock, but usually those breeders are not producing show winning kittens - they can't of course because they couldn't get the breeding stock either. So over time (and not very much time either) you end up with a two-tier breed where no-one can break in from the bottom tier to the top tier.
> 
> I can see this very clearly in one of my breeds (there are cats in the bottom tier that are descended from one of my top tier cats!) and am hoping that in time I might be able to break into the top tier again. I bought what I thought was a promising boy, no restrictions, and considered myself very fortunate (he had swept the board at his first show as a kitten). Unfortunately since coming here he managed to scorch his fur on a halogen heater - I left the room for a minute and came back to see smoke coming from him! - and now he has a patch of lighter coloured and coarse hair on his flank which I am hoping will go away. Still, at least it's not hereditary!
> 
> Liz


----------



## Toby & Darwin (May 26, 2008)

I have no restrictions on my Tonk girl - but the stud which I have used I have a contract with that none are to be sold for breeding, unless I want to keep a girl myself.

By bengal girl who will be coming in April has no restrictions on her either - it will just depend on which stud I use when the time comes.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> when a breed is first being established, there is often no option that to mate very close relatives such as mother/son, brother/sister etc. If you trace lines back to the origin of any breed you will find plenty of matings like this. No reason to do it once a breed is well established though.


Yes the early Burmese pedigrees are very interesting - yen yen mau, wong mau all the way down!


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> In general I agree - however I think it was Cerridwen on this forum who said that in her country, breeders might put a restriction on a stud that he was not to sire more than a certain number of kittens or litters. I actually think this is a very good idea, because it could be seriously damaging to the gene pool to use a particular stud too frequently. I've been shocked at the overuse of a particular Burmese stud in the last few years, for instance - he often appears in pedigrees 3 or 4 times within 4 generations and he is highly inbred himself!
> Of course this high level of inbreeding does tend to produce the typiest cats, and many breeders cannot see beyond the show bench


I agree, I think restricting the number of litters is a great idea - as long as the original stud owner abides by the same principle!

Liz


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think although the use of a stud cat excessively can be a problem, restrictions can in fact limit the gene pool and affect the general quality of a breed.

Good cats who would in fact offer some sort of outcross and quality genetics ie from imported lines or well bred UK ones are held so closely to breeders' chests that others have to use same old, same old studs or lines in order to mate their girls.

Often public service studs in some breeds are so out of date they really bring nothing to the party or their breed apart from swell the numbers of poorer quality pet owned cats, or appear more times in a pedigree than their quality justifies as they are available to all and sundry. There is nothing wrong in breeding for pets but they too need to meet a certain standard, otherwise you lose breed loyalty. It is no good having great girls if every time the quality is ruined by the type of stud that is available.

Breeding poor quality animals is in effect really no better than someone breeding crosses. I think in order to get some moral high ground re breeding cats in the first place, you have to justify why you are breeding and to breed from the best genetics you can, otherwise you too are contributing to the rescue problem.

Placing restrictions is greedy, selfish and done without the best interest of the breed at heart in many instances.
Mentoring a newbie to save them placing cats appropriately is completely different to the iron rules that some impose.

Lauren


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

LOL, so placing restrictions on a cat's kittens that's cost you A LOT of money to import in is wrong then? When *you've* spent out the money for the great lines etc?

Most breeders place the restrictions for 3 years in the MC ranks, there's certain others that restrict more, like one of my girls i cannot sell any for breeding but can keep girls - now i understand this as her father is a champion import and her breeder is still fashioning and working on her lines x

I can see both sides of this story as i am a breeder, who's strived hard to find the best lines i can, brought in cats from all over europe and some english too to find the perfect matches in regards to maintaining a great standard of cat/kitten x

If i do sell for breeding (which is only to people i well and truly trust and the same with even homing a pet kitten) i do put restrictions in place, however they are open to discussion between myself and the other breeder, it is not the final answer and it does state that if someone wants a kitten for breeding and asks and this person is trustworthy then exceptions to the rule can be made if both breeder and owner breeder agree, however the same restrictions shall apply to this next person also through contract x

it makes it a little more open but also covers both parties, some breeders do not want to sell for breeding as it can be a nightmare if you get it wrong x

if someone goes into a contract with another breeder which is restricted then they obviously know and don't have to take the kitten nor sign anything, it's their perogative! x


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> LOL, so placing restrictions on a cat's kittens that's cost you A LOT of money to import in is wrong then? When you've spent out the money for the great lines etc?


I find that breeders who import are usually handsomely rewarded for their efforts either in "showing" glory, breeding kitten sales or in pounds, shillings and pence without having to place restrictions.

The odd breeder who wants to make sure her lines are healthy before placing any cats for breeding, is all fair and good but that is not the main reason most other breeders place restrictions on their breeding cats. Genetic health or quality of kittens is not usually the reason, it is to protect the golden goose whether that may be hard cash or the production of beautiful show cats.
In many breeds import-bred cats sell for higher fees anyway and I feel adding the extra restrictions is really taking the Michael.

I can see where you are coming from, but it is not good for the genetic diversity nor progression of any breed, I think.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Well, one of my breeds actually bans imports, so protecting someone's import investment certainly isn't an issue there, and still restrictions are the norm.

Liz


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Exactly. I have imported twice and paid plenty to do so, but I see absolutely no reason to impose any restrictions on my imported boys' offspring. I don't get asked for kittens for breeding anyway (at least only very rarely) but if I was asked and I didn't want to sell to a particular breeder, I just wouldn't do so. Quite easy really 



lauren001 said:


> I find that breeders who import are usually handsomely rewarded for their efforts either in "showing" glory, breeding kitten sales or in pounds, shillings and pence without having to place restrictions.
> 
> The odd breeder who wants to make sure her lines are healthy before placing any cats for breeding, is all fair and good but that is not the main reason most other breeders place restrictions on their breeding cats. Genetic health or quality of kittens is not usually the reason, it is to protect the golden goose whether that may be hard cash or the production of beautiful show cats.
> In many breeds import-bred cats sell for higher fees anyway and I feel adding the extra restrictions is really taking the Michael.
> ...


----------



## patsie (Feb 28, 2009)

I have looked on our pink slip that took ages to arive and there is clearly no restrictions placed on our girl 
I did not anything about this when we bought her 
To a complete novice like me it seems that that if everyone refused to buy restricted cats that would stop this practise dead as breeders would have to keep all their kittens 
Even though I did not know about this there would be no way I would have bought her if their were restrictions as it seems that these dealers want it all imagine a group of dealers conspriring to sell only restricted cats in time they would have a stranglehold on all stud fees etc It seems so unfair that someones pays for a cat and that someone else owns some of your cat in order to control the system of cause if there were health resons and not commercial that would be a complete ball game


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

patsie said:


> I have looked on our pink slip that took ages to arive and there is clearly no restrictions placed on our girl
> I did not anything about this when we bought her
> To a complete novice like me it seems that that if everyone refused to buy restricted cats that would stop this practise dead as breeders would have to keep all their kittens
> Even though I did not know about this there would be no way I would have bought her if their were restrictions as it seems that these dealers want it all imagine a group of dealers conspriring to sell only restricted cats in time they would have a stranglehold on all stud fees etc It seems so unfair that someones pays for a cat and that someone else owns some of your cat in order to control the system of cause if there were health resons and not commercial that would be a complete ball game


it wouldn't say any restrictions on a pink slip, just if the kitten can actually be bred from or not - as in if breeder put kitten on active or inactive register x

The only way there'd be restrictions is if you signed a contract that said there were rules in place that you had to follow x

If you haven't signed a contract then you are not restricted x


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

The restrictions are not outlined on the pink form from the GCCF. The GCCF merely documents whether she is on the Active (ie suitable for breeding) or sold as a pet. If she is sold as a pet then no kittens can be registered from her unless she is converted to the Active which only her breeder can do.

The restrictions we are talking about are on the contract you signed with your breeder on purchase of the cat or on mating your cat to an outside stud.

You could potentially just ignore any restrictions and wait to be taken to court, but in general it is not seen as good practice and you could end up ostracised by many breeders if you publicly flout them.

The best thing to do is if you don't want a cat with restrictions is just to walk away. However in some breeds this would prohibit you from having any of the "top" genes hence the discussion on here.

Lauren


----------



## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

I am new to this as i have never had a pedigree kitten only moggies. I am getting 2 pedigree kittens in June. Could someone explain to me what active means thankyou.x


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Indie said:


> I am new to this as i have never had a pedigree kitten only moggies. I am getting 2 pedigree kittens in June. Could someone explain to me what active means thankyou.x


On the active register means that you can legitimately breed from the cat, male or female but most pedigrees are sold not active.


----------



## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

Ahhhh right thankyou.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

When a pedigree cat is sold for breeding the breeder must place the kitten on the Active register. This means that the cat is of a quality that meets the standard for a particular breed and in her opinion is suitable to produce kittens that will enhance and continue the breed on. 
If the cat is sold on the Active it is then able to produce registered kittens with another "Active" cat.

So if you buy a Persian kitten on the Active, find a registered Persian Stud cat, then the GCCF will register their kittens as Persians.

If you buy a "pet" pedigree kitten then the kittens cannot be registered unless the breeder will convert the cat to the Active for you. This usually entails a further money transfer.

Some cat sold as pets are actually of breeding quality, so a breeder may be happy to convert, but some are sold as pets because they are not of that quality, it may be cosmetic, or genetic or health, size or coat quality reasons etc etc.

Buying cats "on the Active" can be more expensive and not all breeders will sell breeding cats to new breeders.


----------



## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

Oh no mine will be just pets.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

What breed are you getting?


----------



## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

An Oriental and a Serrengeti.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Sounds great


----------



## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

Im not having them till June when they have had all their jabs, but i am going to meet them in a few weeks.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

patsie said:


> I have looked on our pink slip that took ages to arive and there is clearly no restrictions placed on our girl
> I did not anything about this when we bought her
> To a complete novice like me it seems that that if everyone refused to buy restricted cats that would stop this practise dead as breeders would have to keep all their kittens


All that would happen would be that breeders would overwhelmingly practice early neutering - not such a bad idea, it would certainly solve the problem of people breeding from non-active cats.



> Even though I did not know about this there would be no way I would have bought her if their were restrictions as it seems that these dealers want it all imagine a group of dealers conspriring to sell only restricted cats in time they would have a stranglehold on all stud fees etc It seems so unfair that someones pays for a cat and that someone else owns some of your cat in order to control the system of cause if there were health resons and not commercial that would be a complete ball game


No-one owns part of the cat, that isn't what it means.

Liz


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

The bit that Liz has quoted i quoted before, but you (patsie) must have edited it when i went to reply, as i didn't see the edited part x

I certainly would have said if i had that breeders aren't dealers :lol: oh dear!!

Agree with you Liz on the early neutering x


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Indie said:


> Im not having them till June when they have had all their jabs, but i am going to meet them in a few weeks.


Why a oriental & Serengeti? 2 Serengeti's sounds better.......  I will be having my first litter of them at the end of the year! Who are you getting yours from as there are only a handful of us breeding them :001_cool:


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

patsie said:


> To a complete novice like me it seems that that if everyone refused to buy restricted cats that would stop this practise dead as breeders would have to keep all their kittens


Of course that would eliminate restrictions. However, not all of us oppose to restrictions so restrictions won't be eliminated. People who oppose to them can buy from other breeders and we that don't oppose... well, we don't have a problem buying restricted cats.

And remember that restrictions can mean so many different things! Would these restrictions be so bad? Would they harm the health and genetic diversity within a breed?

1. The cat may not be used in breeding until scanned cleared for HCM at the age of 12 months.
2. The cat may no produce more than 3 litters/year.
3. No offspring may be sold to breeder X (and breeder X being a breeder who, in the court of law, has been found guilty of animal neglect or maybe even animal cruelty).
4. The cat may not me sold intact.

Would such restrictions be pure evil? I would find them very much acceptable and I would absolutely see how they benefit both the cat and the breed.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

To be fair, that selection of restrictions is so varied that it is meaningless. For a start I have never heard of a cat producing more than three litters a year and doubt very much whether it is actually possible unless she is producing whole litters of stillborn kittens on a regular basis. I have never had a cat wanting more than two litters a year and I strongly suspect three is only possible if the kittens are taken away much younger than the GCCF rules permit. And no-one is likely to want to sell to so and so who has been convicted of animal cruelty anyway!

The restrictions we are talking about here are quite simply restrictions on breeding cats that are _perceived_ (rightly or wrongly) by the average cat lover as being there solely to restrict trade. It is very clear that they _are_ so perceived, and those who want to sell entire kittens with restrictions, for reasons unconnected with any fault that particular kitten might have, will have to accept that this is how it looks to outsiders.

Liz


----------



## LousKoonz (Feb 9, 2008)

lizward said:


> To be fair, that selection of restrictions is so varied that it is meaningless. For a start I have never heard of a cat producing more than three litters a year and doubt very much whether it is actually possible unless she is producing whole litters of stillborn kittens on a regular basis. I have never had a cat wanting more than two litters a year and I strongly suspect three is only possible if the kittens are taken away much younger than the GCCF rules permit. And no-one is likely to want to sell to so and so who has been convicted of animal cruelty anyway!
> 
> The restrictions we are talking about here are quite simply restrictions on breeding cats that are _perceived_ (rightly or wrongly) by the average cat lover as being there solely to restrict trade. It is very clear that they _are_ so perceived, and those who want to sell entire kittens with restrictions, for reasons unconnected with any fault that particular kitten might have, will have to accept that this is how it looks to outsiders.
> 
> Liz


Very True Liz x

I don't think there'd be too many who sell with restrictions that would be too overly bothered about what outsiders thought of it - you make your own rules for how you want to breed (sticking to guidelines of course) and you go with it - if people don't like it then it's their perogative and i think too many breeders end up too thick skinned to worry too much x


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> For a start I have never heard of a cat producing more than three litters a year and doubt very much whether it is actually possible unless she is producing whole litters of stillborn kittens on a regular basis. I have never had a cat wanting more than two litters a year and I strongly suspect three is only possible if the kittens are taken away much younger than the GCCF rules permit. And no-one is likely to want to sell to so and so who has been convicted of animal cruelty anyway!


A stud could easily produce more than 3 litters a year and I don't even think it's uncommon.

When it comes to selling cats to people convicted for animal cruelty, that can very well happen. Not everyone will know if someone have been convicted for such things. So knowingly most people won't sell to them, but what if they don't know? For me it doesn't even have to include people who have been convicted for such matters. There are people I simply won't sell to because they have poor breeding plans and don't take care of the cats in a for me acceptable way. I have no problems restricting my buyers from selling to them.

Anyway, my point really was that restrictions can mean so many things. It's not possible to say that all restrictions are good or bad. Some are good and will do good both for the individual cats and for the breed while some are bad and can potentially harm cats and the breed.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I doubt if you would find anyone anywhere that puts a restriction on a stud saying that he can only sire three litters a year. It would be a ridiculous restriction - anyone prepared to impose such a restriction would be far more likely to refuse to sell a boy for stud in the first place. And as for selling to unsuitable buyers, a simple warning about someone would surely be enough.

Liz


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> I doubt if you would find anyone anywhere that puts a restriction on a stud saying that he can only sire three litters a year. It would be a ridiculous restriction - anyone prepared to impose such a restriction would be far more likely to refuse to sell a boy for stud in the first place. And as for selling to unsuitable buyers, a simple warning about someone would surely be enough.
> 
> Liz


Restricting the number of litters sired each year by a stud is not uncommon in Sweden. It's probably one of the most common ones and it's given to avoid studs from fathering to many litters and dominating the future generation.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

what, to three litters a year?? Some boys need far more "nookie" than that to keep them happy!

Liz


----------



## thumbs (Mar 4, 2009)

lol, their only male sod them my blokes very lucky to get attention twice a year:thumbup:


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

LOL - yes I think that would be a little far-fetched as a restriction - although my boys often don't sire any more than 3 litters per year, if that! But I wouldn't impose that on anyone else - maybe 6 or 8 would be more reasonable. Or a maximum number of litters (20??) to be sired over a period of 2 or 3 years.



lizward said:


> what, to three litters a year?? Some boys need far more "nookie" than that to keep them happy!
> 
> Liz


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lizward said:


> what, to three litters a year?? Some boys need far more "nookie" than that to keep them happy!
> 
> Liz


Depends on the breed. In my breed (Devon Rex) more than 3-4 normal sized litters a year for a stud isn't suitable.

Most studs are neutered after they have sired say 4 litters.


----------



## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Cerridwen said:


> Most studs are neutered after they have sired say 4 litters.


Why would you do that?


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

I can understand why it might be thought good practice to neuter a stud after a small number of litters. It's better for the gene pool in the long term - we don't want our breeds to become too inbred and overuse of certain studs is a sure way for that to happen. Personally I think 4 is perhaps taking things to extremes - but 15-20 would perhaps be a realistic maximum.

When I look back at the mating records for the boys I've owned over the last 10 years or so, most of them have not sired more than 15 litters before neutering. Not all of those litters have been to my own girls of course.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

4 is very extreme - you'd be highly likely to lose to the stud's genes altogether if you limit it to then and then what's the point? 20 seems good to me. Of the studs I have had, the most prolific sired eleven litters- at least, eleven litters where kittens survived long enough to be registered - and to the best of my knowledge only two kittens from the whole lot were ever bred from.

Liz


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Elmstar said:


> Why would you do that?


Basically because it usually isn't possible to keep studs fertile longer than maybe a year. In Sweden it's common practise to keep breeding cats indoors, even the studs and few wanna keep spraying studs fertile for a long period.

Non-spraying studs are kept fertile longer though. I know a few who are still fertile at the age of 8-10 years.

In Sweden appr. 500 Devon Rexes are registred each year and if studs usually are kept fertile only a year and they shouldn't be used excessively it's not appropriate to let the sire more than 25 offspring. 25 offspring a year is the same as 5% of the total number of cats registred under a year and according to geneticists it isn't suitable to let a stud sire more than 5% of a years registred cats. This in order to prevent single studs from becoming to dominant in the genepool. If every breeder stays to this rule it means that at least 20 different studs are used each year.

The equation is quite easy. We have no problems with inbreeding and we have no problems passing on the studs genes. We simply make sure there are some offspring saved to continue breeding on.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

So do you get people keeping say a stud boy from a good litter and because of the rule, keep his brother entire as well? That way you could get twice as many kittens - 50 as the sibling brothers would have similar genes, though not identical probably.

I do not see that inbreeding is no problem, as it would still be possible to breed a boy to close relatives.
Identically bred kittens could be used to replace a stud the following year and although not completely identical, would still not enlarge the gene pool any. A line could still dominate a gene pool, individual cats would not dominate but their full male siblings may, along with full female siblings.


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Hi - I'm really interested in what you've said - are your Swedish "rules" on studs siring only 5% of the total registered cats per year written anywhere (on a website maybe?) I'd like to read more about it. I think some breeds in the UK (Burmese being a prime example!) should consider restrictions like this.



Cerridwen said:


> Basically because it usually isn't possible to keep studs fertile longer than maybe a year. In Sweden it's common practise to keep breeding cats indoors, even the studs and few wanna keep spraying studs fertile for a long period.
> 
> Non-spraying studs are kept fertile longer though. I know a few who are still fertile at the age of 8-10 years.
> 
> ...


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Yes that would be an interesting idea - and of course in very cold climates it's easy to understand that keeping stud cats would be very difficult. Apart from the temperature, think of the daylight length in winter. I imagine outbuildings housing animals of any description would need to be of brick and very well heated. So yes, keeping one until he starts spraying and then moving on to his son is perhaps the best solution in these cases, and if everyone does that it would help the gene pool substantially.

Liz


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> So do you get people keeping say a stud boy from a good litter and because of the rule, keep his brother entire as well? That way you could get twice as many kittens - 50 as the sibling brothers would have similar genes, though not identical probably.
> 
> I do not see that inbreeding is no problem, as it would still be possible to breed a boy to close relatives.
> Identically bred kittens could be used to replace a stud the following year and although not completely identical, would still not enlarge the gene pool any. A line could still dominate a gene pool, individual cats would not dominate but their full male siblings may, along with full female siblings.


Actuarally I haven't seen that phenomenon at all. Of course sometimes a breeder will keep a stud and sell a brother from the same litter as stud to another breeder but generally that's not a problem an most of the time the breeders do reduce the number of litters sired by the studs in such a case.

I guess the trick is that basically all breeders (with a few, but very few exceptions) here know how important it is to maintain genetic variation so they rather use their studs moderately and look for new lines and cominations (we still outcross with other breeds even though it probably isn't dead necessary today) than use a good looking stud and/or his brothers much.


----------



## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

kozykatz said:


> Hi - I'm really interested in what you've said - are your Swedish "rules" on studs siring only 5% of the total registered cats per year written anywhere (on a website maybe?) I'd like to read more about it. I think some breeds in the UK (Burmese being a prime example!) should consider restrictions like this.


The person behind this recommendation is a former scientist at the Swedish Agriculture University, Per-Erik Sundgren (Dr. Agric). He's now retired but he has a website where he has published a few articles, very few in English though. I'm sure you'll find at least a little bit of interesting reading at his site.

The "5% recommendation" I belive comes from one of his books on breeding pets. It's only available in Swedish.

It's not mentioned in any of the articles published on his website but he constantly mention how important it is to restrict the number of litters after studs. He has also been able to show that restricting the number of litters after every stud reduce the level of inbreeding and increase the fertility in dig breeds such as the Dachshund.

I could translate some of his articles an e-mail you if you'd like.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> *Cerridwen wrote:* I guess the trick is that basically all breeders (with a few, but very few exceptions) here know how important it is to maintain genetic variation so they rather use their studs moderately and look for new lines and combinations (we still outcross with other breeds even though it probably isn't dead necessary today) than use a good looking stud and/or his brothers much.


I am glad that breeders are looking after the breeds and are protecting the gene pool in Sweden.
There is no doubt that the odd inbreeding will produce nice kittens but the doubling/tripling/quadrupling/... up of some studs/dams producing many similarly bred cats even in different lines will diminish fertility and reduce the health of any breed in the long run.

There seems to be little restriction in the UK as regards cats at the moment.


----------



## kozykatz (May 18, 2008)

Thanks - I'll have a look at that site when I get time and see if there's anything useful in English!



Cerridwen said:


> The person behind this recommendation is a former scientist at the Swedish Agriculture University, Per-Erik Sundgren (Dr. Agric). He's now retired but he has a website where he has published a few articles, very few in English though. I'm sure you'll find at least a little bit of interesting reading at his site.
> 
> The "5% recommendation" I belive comes from one of his books on breeding pets. It's only available in Swedish.
> 
> ...


----------

