# A sad case which can affect us all sooner or later...



## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi everyone,
I am not completely new here, was here about 5 years ago but as I never had the time, sometimes I read a little or write a little but must admit I can't recall the name or address I used. On the other hand sometimes I feel quite new myself in this country and because of it I may have ask for advice, too.

Hope the case I'd like to share won't hurt anyone here. I am a kind of hobby breader sometimes using new ways but I can tell that we have healthy cats and kittens (if the owner follow our advise of course because every kitten can be ruined with bad diet, etc...) I also must admit that I was not always so well informed and educated on the subject, it is just the last few years.

I use a specific web site (I am not sure I can write the name here, let you know here if yes please, but will be the first match by Google or the 4th) for advertising as it has the biggest trafic and it is easy to use. They have a kind of approval process to check adverts which should be a good think, but...

Recently an evil reseller who had been discovered by me reselling one of our kittens for an ubelievly high profit (500 pounds - just the profit - no mistake) to who-knows-who-and-where (we are quite serious in connection our kittens wellbeing, of course bad people can lie to us but we want to know about the kitten future home, offer help for the lifetime of the kitten, give advice, ert). So I think it was a kind of revenge to ruining reseller's business as I had warned others for this person and asked the future owner of my kitten to contact with us for diet advice, etc. 
In the same time I was advertising one of our kitten there and it seems it was a kind of revenge to start a scam advert agains us.
The person behind this basicly stole our identity, using our photos (you can see two advert with the same main photo and I suggest you to use copyright sign on yours as in this case you can ask the help of the law), using our address and lying about us, ruining everything we had built with such a hard work during years. I love my cats and kittens but if you are a breeder you know exactly well how big and hard work it is.

More than this - sorry if I dare to speak freely - as we came from abroad we always feel some lack of the trust which we understand of course - but not really helpful when I need the owner to trust my advice and experience or even just find good homes for my kitties.

When I discovered this advert I modified mine to defend ourselves, explaining what was happening, trying to warn others and reported it to the admin, too. And it turned out that I did not have the right. Do you understand? So imagine to put the situation on another environment: you are attacked on the street, someone is beating you, threatening you and you should call the police (the same police who did not recognised that violent person - advert's approval process of the site) but you do not have the right to beat back or lift your hands just can cry for help when the street is empty and hope that sooner or later someone will hear you and hope you'll survive.

They let the scam run who knows how long. What if I did not noticed, how long it could have been run? No matter, we were banned, I was as guilty as the scammer if not guiltier and not even a sorry for let scam run, nothing. They promised to investigate the matter askig 1 day but nothing happend and 2 days went. They were rude in their answer for my complaint like no 'Hi', they explained they are busy (and I am too, unable to check the site in every 10 minutes to be sure that there are no scam).

In the background I nice lady - who tired to give some help in this sad situation - wrote to me that she had reseached that site and found another seller with the same problem (scam against the seller).


1. Please be careful with this site. No matter how cautious you are, you can be ruined very quickly by a scam and you have no right to defend yourself and of course always 'the news is the news and not its refutation'
There is no world where everyone of the owners is satisfied or you can be a victim of a jealous competitor, a kid's silly game, or a revengeful reseller we were, etc. 
2. Be careful with this reseller, as it was a very easy and good money I am pretty sure this person will try to do the same with others. Able to make very good, professional photos, shall lie to you about the future home of the kitten, and have a kind of manner / appereance which is not suspicios at all.
(If you are interested in details let me know please.)

I need advice, please:

What can I do with the situation? I lost the biggest advert board and even if I can go back I am not sure I wish to use a board where kittens interest or sellers interest weight so less and a scammer can run freely who knows how long using your photos and address.

What can I do the reseller?

Thank you in advance. And please really be careful as your hard work, good reputation, everything can go to the dustbin very quickly. I think we should not let these kind of cases happen but have no idea how to prevent. OK, let say I do not use this site again - this is the only busy one and others will. I lost they won, bad for me. Really? Was it just like this? Sorry, I am very sad.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi Outsider and welcome to PF 
Yours is a very sad and worrying story. Sadly the website cannot be named here because of libel issues, which I am sure you understand as you would have named them in the first place.
I wish I could give you some advice about what to do but I don't know.
I have heard of another breeder's kittens being advertised falsely by using photos from that breeder's website or own adverts, which was a scam as they didn't actually have the kittens.
I don't know what you can do if someone has resold one of your kittens though. it all sounds a very complicated and messy affair.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

The only thing I can advise you is to collect all the proof you can and consult a lawyer. They will know what - if anything - can be done against reselling your kitten and against the identity scam.

I take it your buyers sign a contract in which they are forbidden to sell the cat on without your consent, and that you will always have first right to buy back your cat.

The thing is that I do not know if such a contract would be honoured by a judge. If it goes against some law, any law, they may pronounce the contract null and void. And if they have already sold the kitten, it will be impossible to get it back.

Taking action against them for the identity theft should be easier, provided you have adequate proof. But you will need to se a lawyer to find out the details.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Reselling for profit is a problem. I hope many kitten buyers read your post and then maybe don't get so annoyed at breeders for being so careful. Here's what I do, it isn't foolproof but it does weed out a lot of time wasters and potential problems.

Join a breed club or a cat club for your area. When resellers surface and are in active buying phase the word tends to go out.
Don't send photos of your kittens if someone asks in an initial email.
Never agree to a kitten visit unless you have spoken to people on the phone. It isn't nearly as easy to sound convincing on the phone if you are chatting and they have to come up with an instant response. Do not rely on nice sounding emails.
Don't put up too much detail on ads or on your own website. Don't use an email address which is your own name.
Never give out your address until just before someone visits. The earliest anyone gets mine is the day before the visit and after at least two phone conversations.
Oh yes - and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who won't give me a landline number to call them on without very good reason. I always offer to call them or call them back.

It's sad but that's the way we have to be.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Thank you. Sadly I can't afford a lawyer I am afraid and another problem that as the whole thing happend on a web site I am not sure I can collect proof enough. I might can collect proof enough against the reseller (however her action is - I think - not against the law).
Until this point I did not used a contract, we let people visit, we are quite a kind of 'open book', I felt it necessary for two reasons:
1. Gain some trust which we need if we wish a good life to our pets like we need gaining trust to follow our advice but we are foreigners (sorry to say this again, but we can feel this day by day).
2. As we put lot of effort of serious research health-issues, vaccina-issues we wish to share for the sake of pets.

But thank you. I am thinking to try Citizen Advise Bureau, they may can help.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I might can collect proof enough against the reseller (however her action is - I think - not against the law).


No it isn't. Animals in this country are for legal purposes viewed as 'property'. If someone pays you for something it becomes their property to do with as they please. Whether or not any contract term would be upheld in a court would depend on the judge on the day.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh, so this was the reason, sorry I did not understood that why cat breeders not give more info, photos, etc.
I think in connection with photos we have a good idea (or not...) we started to put copyright sings to them, because in this case you can turn to an authority to using your photo - so it can be good agains scams, as scams are more effective using our photos than without it.
We try to be cautious but sadly the fact that we are foreigner does not help to gain trust and because of it we are quite open. We welcome visitors, show our cats, not just the parents but if they wish they can see more, can play with kittens. 
I usually use email for contacting as - it is my fault again - my understanding via phone (especially if there is an unual accent) not so good. 
Anyway, thank you very much to you, too for advice.

This reseller was outrageous. She even had tried to book for my next litter before I discovered her 'activity'.

It so sad. It is just so easy to ruin others with a scam.

Do you have any idea where to advert if not there...? It is another problem for us. Thank you.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

What is your breed Outsider? You could always try advertising through the breed club.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

havoc said:


> No it isn't. Animals in this country are for legal purposes viewed as 'property'. If someone pays you for something it becomes their property to do with as they please. Whether or not any contract term would be upheld in a court would depend on the judge on the day.


I see. :-(
Not really good in a meaning that some bad people can lie as they wish in connection with the future, home of the kitten. So when a nice lady with good manner tell to you that she likes kittens, wants more, even write to you once or twice and let you know that your kitten (first one) is well you have no reason to be suspicious. I went suspicios when she was unable to send photos but of course I can't be too pushy to ask for it and when she 'introduced' one of her relatives via email that he wants a kitten, too then they let me know that they wanted more.

I am especially worried - I do not know your experiences - but I saw kittens ruined with silly things like bad diet, etc. So I am more than happy to keep contact and help if it necessary and of course if the other party willing to contact after buying.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Persians. But I am not sure I can try it. Our cats (mostly) were registered in that country where we came from and not here. Of course re-registering is possible but costly and we offer pets and - sorry to speak freely - as new in this country we do not have a very well estabilished exsitence so I spend my money rather to good food to them than dealing with bureaucratic processes. Sorry, maybe it is a fault but I assume not I am the only one who follows a mostly raw diet and breeders who do know exactly well how costly it is. (But it works very well, we do not have health issues which is very good.) So if I have to choose how to put that money I rather choose food than 50-80 pounds / cat for re-registering them.

But because of this I was unable to advertise properly on one of the site as I cannot put my advert among pedigree kittens. (However ancestors are known, has full pedigree and offical, foreign registry numbers.)

Sorry, I am really grateful for help and advice, sorry that I am so newbee and do not know much about official things here.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

I am sorry, it is maybe a bit off, but can I ask where you discuss about problems like time wasters, etc, I am just curious that my experiences stand-alone of effect others as well and what kind of soulitons they use (timewasters is just one of the problems I face so often).
I am afraid to give our address, however I have to, I am afraid to be robbed like someone can steel my cats so I have a lot I would be eager to read about.
Thank you.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The best advice I can offer is to join the cat club for your area and join a breed club. There's a lot of support from those sources.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Sorry, I thought I answered but I probaby cancelled it or something.
Persians.
But we are not registered in this coutry, they were registered when they were born (where we came from together with them), they have full pedigrees, some nice ancestors but I am not sure I can join without re-registering my adult cats here before.
Anyway I shall ask and thank you again.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Anyone can join breed clubs and area clubs. You don't even have to own a cat 

Here's a list of GCCF affiliated clubs
the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I did see your advert, and would really appreciate a private message with the name of this lady, as I have a suspicion I've been contacted by her as well. If you want to join a breed club, I sit on the Colourpoint Society, a club which caters for Persians. Although we focus on colourpoints, we accept members even if they don't hae them, and you would get a lot of support from us, me in particular, if you wanted it. Were you searching for a stud boy last year? If so, we may already have spoken as I was contacted bya froeign lady with Persiand wanting a stud.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

outsider said:


> But we are not registered in this coutry, they were registered when they were born (where we came from together with them), they have full pedigrees, some nice ancestors but I am not sure I can join without re-registering my adult cats here before


It should be a very simple process of registering/transferring your prefix and the cats registrations, cats are imported and exported around the world everyday with no issues registering them in another country. 
How can you provide pedigrees for your kittens? Unless you are sending the paperwork back to your home country perhaps?

Over here there are email lists for the 2 governing bodies, so anyone trying to scam anything is quickly known among the cat world. And with most registered breeders kittens being neutered before they're homed, there's no issue with them being onsold to a BYB


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If this is the same lady, she contacted me last year for use of a stud, and I did inform her that she would need to register her cats here. Seems as though advice has not been followed. Pity really.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

carly87 said:


> If this is the same lady, she contacted me last year for use of a stud, and I did inform her that she would need to register her cats here. Seems as though advice has not been followed. Pity really.


Ah carly,i see you found the thread already.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, but will be interested in her response...


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi Carly87, sorry I even wrote my answer (private message) but do not know how to send a private message.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

You need to have made over 25 posts to send a Private Message - so only a couple more to go


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

you mean stud service? Surely was not me. We never ask for anything like this because of obvious reasons, sorry about it. To be able to give valid refereces to customers I wish to have the stud and up-to-date in connection with him. (Besides this our cats are firstly not for breeding so they are our company.) 
Also we never offer stud services (we had some requiest during years). I am rather not risk if you know what I mean. 

Thank you for your advice in connetion with club. 

In connection with reseller I try to answer but so silly, can't find how to send private message, a little help..., please?  Thanks.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_if you can write one more post, you should be able to send carly a private message, as you need 25 posts first before you can send a message._


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

_'It should be a very simple process of registering/transferring'_

Yes, but it is expensive and sadly I have to think rather carefully where to put money (I am new here, do not have so stable existence in UK yet) on the other hand I put as much as I can afford to buy quality raw meat to them or nowadays I travel to a farm for raw milk regulary, etc. so at this point of our life - hope you understand - if I have two choose, I choose food to them rather re-registration process for around 50 / cats. 
As my cats were officialy registered aboad I can't see re-registering issue so urgent or important while offering pets and not for breeding.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

carly87 said:


> If this is the same lady, she contacted me last year for use of a stud, and I did inform her that she would need to register her cats here. Seems as though advice has not been followed. Pity really.


No, it is not the same. 

You can collect some wood for stake to put me in my rightful place for this but: I never offer or ask for stud services. I am more than frightend of the idea to allow a not-known stud among my girls or allow my boy to catche something, even if they can show me test... what if test are not fresh enough, I am new here, would be able to say that test are surely valid, etc. And I do not know anything about the stud (what if he tend to be ill even if not with something fatal but just simply ill) or what about its nature, etc, etc.

Very sorry for this opinion of mine but I am rather a type who overworry things.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_if you go back to page two, click on carlys name and it should say private message, as you have posted above 25 posts you should be able to send a message now, if not as lyn, as she is a moderator and should be able to help._


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ah, Ok, so it wasn't you then. Must have been another lady who wanted a stud service.

50 cats? Really? Or was that a typing mistake?

Ok, I am going to put my own feelings aside and try and help you re reasons for breeding etc, because I think you need it, and suspect that you will take it on board now that you're interested in genetics. Unfortunately, if you are going to continue breeding, then you are going to have a lot of expense to do it properly, as, at the very least, you need to have all of your cats, every single one of them, tested for PKD. That is £26 or so per cat, and is essential. PKD is very common in Persians, and is a horrendous health condition that results in an early and painful death for any cat who has it.

What do you think about that?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

outsider said:


> Yes, but it is expensive and sadly I have to think rather carefully where to put money
> 
> As my cats were officialy registered aboad I can't see re-registering issue so urgent or important while offering pets and not for breeding.


Pets still deserve to have papers, so people have proof the pedigree they've bought is what it should be.

If I couldn't afford the small fee (55 pounds if I read correctly) for transferring registrations then I'd not breed until I could do it properly. 
Though if you've not done the health tests mentioned above, do start there before registering.



> I choose food to them rather re-registration process for around 50 / cats.


You have 50 breeding cats?


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## Cookieandme (Dec 29, 2011)

Edited - Probably a typo


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_she doesnt have 50 breeding cats, i think she has one stud and afew queens, i think she is counting the kittens maybe that she has had over the years.. Her english isnt very good, i think its hard for her to write what she means._


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## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

Are you breeding to make a living? Is that why you need to cut down on costs?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I do think the 50 was a typing error - in another thread Outsider has given the ages of her cats and I think there were 5.
It cannot be easy for her not having English as her first language.


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

Lunabuma said:


> Are you breeding to make a living? Is that why you need to cut down on costs?


Do you really think if I do this for living I was after a reseller and would waste my time to warn others? Would not be easier for me to let this reseller 'work'? Because in this case I got the price I had asked for why should it be matter to me? If I would be that kind of person than the conslusion of the matter would be: I have so beautiful kittens that they even can be sold for 950.

(More trust please, I was here to warn others to a reseller activity, maybe for help and sometimes some nice cat-lovers' company and changing infos would be nice as I am rather busy but lonely here, too - , but honestly I am tired enough to be forced to be defensive position and a bit hurted, too.)

Thank you for your understaning in advance.

We are a family, I have cats, and my adult son has his, too. We are the type of people who always had and will have animals around (usually not just cats) the types that if we go to Tenerife (sadly very rarery), we will spend at least 2 days in Loro during a week and spent the rest of the time watching animlas in the sea. We do not have TV as nowadays there is no point to have for looking silly advertises but I think we probably have seen all of the movies of D. Attenborough .
All togoether we have 7 cats as my son has not moved yet to her girlfriend his cats are here with him. The number of the cats who can be affected (or not) is 5, sorry for my mistake to type an extra 0. Hope my 'defense' is enough as I rather wish not to answer that type of questions in future which show untrust. Thank you.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

What you need to be aware of is not that we don't trust you, but that we are worried about the health of the kittens produced. If you know about PKD yet breed anyway without testing, can't you see that this raises some questions in the minds of people who care just as much about cats as you do? Nobody is saying that you don't care for your cats. What they are saying is that, as a breeder, simply providing the best food and love and living conditions isn't enough. It's a lot more than many breeders, mind you, so even that is something in your favour. Although the cats aren't registered in this country, if I am understanding you correctly, they are registered in Hungary, so this also shows a commitment to doing things propperly. It's just the lack of health testing that has people worried. Can you understand that?


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## outsider (Jun 20, 2013)

carly87 said:


> What you need to be aware of is not that we don't trust you, but that we are worried about the health of the kittens produced. If you know about PKD yet breed anyway without testing, can't you see that this raises some questions in the minds of people who care just as much about cats as you do? Nobody is saying that you don't care for your cats. What they are saying is that, as a breeder, simply providing the best food and love and living conditions isn't enough. It's a lot more than many breeders, mind you, so even that is something in your favour. Although the cats aren't registered in this country, if I am understanding you correctly, they are registered in Hungary, so this also shows a commitment to doing things propperly. It's just the lack of health testing that has people worried. Can you understand that?


I understand of course but admit that myself was not worried because of obvious reasons: during so many years while I was not just watching our own cats but having feedback from many owners and never ever had a news about it, I am pretty sure that it is not affect us. I do not know others customes here, so how many breeders exchange news with the owners of kittens and how often, but I myself always try to being contacted even after long years (my oldest kittens' ages we regulary got news are 9, 8 but there are much more they are just the oldest ones).

But on the other hand I am truly grateful the help to how can we have tests for affordable prices as there is huge difference between price that vet offered (85 / cat) and will have this tests soon. Thanks again for this possibility.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

outsider said:


> <snip>
> 
> But on the other hand I am truly grateful the help to how can we have tests for affordable prices as there is huge difference between price that vet offered (85 / cat) and will have this tests soon. Thanks again for this possibility.


Carly's advice was good - get the stud and the next girl you are going to mate tested, then each girl as her turn for mating comes along. It only needs doing once for each cat.


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