# Sick British Shorthair Kitten (4 months Old)



## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

Hi Everyone - please prepare for the longest post in history! 
I'm a first-time cat owner and two weeks ago I bought a male blue BSH from a GFFC breeder. He looked fine, bright and perky. 
When I got him home he didn't really want to eat but the breeder said that this would happen. After a couple of days he still hadn't really eaten that much (although going to the toilet fine and eating kibble, just no wet food.) I noticed that his breathing was a little odd, but after making myself paranoid Googling ailments, I thought that I was being silly. 
I phoned the breeder after seven days and said that I was still concerned that he wasn't eating enough, that he was losing weight and that he didn't really play much - just slept a lot. She said that it took a while (sometimes weeks) for BSHs to settle in. 
Today I took him to the vets and she took one look at him, said I was right to bring him in. Too skinny, not breathing right. 
I suppose I don't know what my question is - I'm just very sad. He has to go back for Xrays and blood tests first thing and I'm beside myself. 
I would NEVER have thought I would get so attached to a pet so quickly, he is utterly adorable. 
How do I know whether he was sick when the breeder sold him to me? She said that he was well when we took him home, so she is pretty much washing her hands of the situation. I just wanted some more info on what it could possibly be, if she knew. 
Has anyone had similar? So sorry to drone on! 
Oh - plus points: he eats his kibble and drinks water. He uses his litter tray properly, he is still alert. 
If anyone can offer any words of comfort, I would love that! Otherwise this has been useful writing it all down.


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Firstly i have had 4 British in the last 18 years and within a Day or two they have been fine. Also lively as well.
Did this Breeder give you any pet insurance for one month? I think most breeders do this.
I am sorry i cannot help much but i hope someone on here that breeds will be able to help you.
For the breeder not to be any help with you are is awfull!
It is a worrying time for you and I can't say don't worry because he's your baby and i know how that feels.
It is amazing how in just a couple of days you can be so bonded with them.
I hope the vet will come up with some answers for you very soon.
If he is eating and drinking and pooing and weeing that is good. Try and keep him warm tonight.

please keep us all updated on your little fella. He is so cute:001_wub:


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

Thanks so much Jill, I will definitely update. Yes, I got a month's free insurance and have checked with Petplan that all is valid so there is that at least! Poor little thing just seems to be getting worse. : (


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Sometimes, a kitten will develop cat flu when moving house, even if he has been vaccinated. Stress affects cats very badly, it will make them very susceptible to infections. So it might be a''simple' respiratory virus, which still may make a kitten very ill, but, if treated properly in time, usually is not terribly dangerous. 
There are many things that make a cat lethargic and off its food, but it is the breathing that worries me. It suggests there may be something wrong with the lungs or the heart. 
If there should be a congenital heart or lung condition, you are entitled to get your money back, which isn't much of a consolation, I know. I am sure we all prefer it to be some infection, as infections can often be cured with medication and TLC, and we all just want your little boy to get well.

Was he tested for the corona virus, and were his parents both pronounced clear of the virus? The corona virus in itself does not make them ill, but it is contageous. However, the virus may mutate into FIP, at which stage it is lethal, but no longer contageous. A great percentage of moggies carry the virus, but it rarely mutates into FIP. But if it did mutate in the mother, the kittens may be infected before birth, or through the milk.

I don't know what the rules are in the UK, but breeders in Holland usually have their cats tested and only breed with corona-free cats from corona-free homes.


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

TeddyCat31 said:


> Thanks so much Jill, I will definitely update. Yes, I got a month's free insurance and have checked with Petplan that all is valid so there is that at least! Poor little thing just seems to be getting worse. : (


If you mean that his breathing is getting worse then give the vet a ring Asap.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I don't really care in what way he is getting worse, please get him to an emergency vet if he is getting worse in any way. Kittens do not have the reserves a grown cat has. If they are ill, they need to be treated ASAP.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Sorry to hear your kitten is poorly  sometimes the vaccination can make them a little off for a few days if he had it just before he came to you, plus the stress of moveing house, hopefully that is all it is. Im not impressed with the breeder mind 

Did the vet take his temp?


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

How is your kitty now?

Your breeder's attitude is outrageous-not eating much for this length of time is a very clear signal that something is wrong and at the very least she should have suggested seeing a vet.

Given the breathing problems I'm surprised the vet didn't admit him straight away or do a blood test. Did she listen to his heart?

Hope he improves soon.


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## Lumboo (Mar 31, 2011)

Is your kitten at home with you or was he kept at the Vet's? If he is at home with you, then if there are any negative changes I would be calling the vet and taking him in as it is not worth taking chances. With a kitten, the sooner medical action is taken the better the response to it.

I am also not impressed with the advice of the breeder to be honest, but at least you are now getting the right advice from your vet.

Hope your little one pulls through quickly - he is gorgeous.

Please keep us updated x


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

Having just bought a BSH boy myself I can understand how quickly you get attached. Saying that mine settled in less than 24 hrs but they are all different. Have a look at his vacc card and see when he had the last one, this can sometimes make them ill. How old was he when you got him?
Mine had his last vacc at 12 weeks but the breeder would not let him go till a week later to check no reaction to the vaccine (i didn't pick him up till 16 weeks old anyway)
It is concerning that its a breathing issue so I would say defo get him back to vets if you feel it has not improved.
Do you have air fresheners? Could it be that which is the problem. Have you changed him on to a new type of litter or anything.
I assume he is being given the same food the breeder had him on and no change? Just trying to rule out reasons he may be off his food.

I am appauled at the breeder for her lack of support!!


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Any news on your little one?


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

Sorry, I should have added, the vet said to bring him back first thing today, which I did. For xrays and blood tests. I had a sleepless night watching over him! His vaccinations are all up to date. Breathing was bad all through the night, he is breathing through his tummy (if that makes sense) but when he woke he ran straight to litter box and then had some water (no food because of tests) so that gives me some hope. I just hope that whatever it is I took him in early enough. 
I am furious at the breeder's attitude - she just doesn't want to lose out on money, but we didn't even mention that, just wanted her advice. I wish that when I asked her last week if I should take him to the vet I had listened to myself rather than her... 

Thanks so much for all your replies, I can't tell you how reassuring it is to know that I'm not out here on my own with this!


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

We all have our fingers and paws crossed for him here.
Must admit the breeder doesn't sound very caring. 

Don't blame yourself by wishing you had took him sooner.
You did what most people would have done.

If you have any worries about him wether day or night just ring the vet.
You have him insured and that's what they are there for.

you could keep a little diary on how he is over the next few days. ie. eating, pooing, playing, sleeping etc.
Just handy if the vet asks you something.


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

Vet has called and he either has a virus (FIP?) in which case on Tuesday when the blood tests confirm it they will have to put him down, or an infection in which case she thinks he has a 50/50 chance. : (
He has to stay in until Tuesday, so I suppose I will update then. Thanks for your kind comments...


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh I fervently hope its not FIP its such a dreadful disease. I spent a few weeks over the summer worrying about one of mine as he was showing signs similar to FIP, so can appreaciate what you are going through. {Luckily my boy was ok}. Will be thinking of you both and hoping that you are as lucky and that he pulls through. He looks a little poppet. Shame on the breeder though x


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> (FIP?) in which case on Tuesday when the blood tests confirm it they will have to put him down


Blood test alone *cannot* confirm FIP. I'm afraid it does sound very much as though it could be but please insist your vet carries out a proper full diagnosis protocol to be sure. More cats are pts because vets still think a corona virus titre = FIP than actually ever have the disease.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

I sure hope it isn't FIP......
If it is, he has no chance at all, and for a kitten to have FIP, the mother must have it too, which means she is going to die of it, too, and all the kittens must be tested.

The breeder will have to pay you back *all* your vet cost, as the kitten must have had the infection before you bought it, and if it is FIP, she will have to pay back the price of the kitten, too.

But let's hope it is 'just' an infection, and your little darling will pull through......


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> and for a kitten to have FIP, the mother must have it too, which means she is going to die of it, too


That just isn't true. For a kitten to have FIP it means it has to have been infected with FCoV AND seroconverted. It may mean the mother has FCoV, probably does but that's all and it certainly doesn't mean she's going to succumb to FIP. It's exactly that sort of lack of understanding which leads to so many cats being pts unnecessarily.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

Sorry Jiskevet just because the babe may have FIP doesn't mean the mother has it. Many cats have the coronvirus which mutates into FIP and appear perfectly healthy. Its only a small percentage of coronavirus carriers that mutate into FIP. 

Dry FIP is very hard to diagnose due to so many differing symptoms. Usually diagnosed by biposy, although by a process of elimination it may be deduced that it is likely. Wet FIP is much easier to diagnose due to the build up of fluid in the lungs which is a specific colour


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

I realy hope he has'nt got FIP  is the breeder GCCF? if so she needs reporting if she still has'nt been in touch 

This site explains all thing Corona & FIP Feline Infectious Peritonitis and Coronavirus Web Site but everything tightly crossed here for him xxx


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

havoc said:


> Blood test alone *cannot* confirm FIP. I'm afraid it does sound very much as though it could be but please insist your vet carries out a proper full diagnosis protocol to be sure. More cats are pts because vets still think a corona virus titre = FIP than actually ever have the disease.


Completely agree. In fact FIP is notoriously difficult to diagnose FIP in the first place. There is no set test that will give you an exact yes or no unfortunately. However, I do know that in the past some vets have actually consulted with Dr Addie ( link Dally Banjo posted ) for assistance with the diagnosis so I would suggest this to your vets if they're wavering.

I would like to know what the initial screening blood tests showed. Hopefully this will turn out to be something treatable. At this early stage there is no reason to think otherwise. We will all keep our fingers crossed here.


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

Oh Jeez, I'm sorry to hear this. I so hope it's nothing so serious. You must be utterly heartbroken. Thinking of you and hoping for a positive outcome.


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

We are sending you positive vibes for you and your little kitten.
I just pray that he will be alright.
Please keep intouch.
We are all rooting for you on here.
Hugs to you x


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

The combination of corona virus in the blood and viscous ascites fluid is pretty conclusive, I fear. But, indeed, dry FIP, where there is no build-up of fluid in the abdominal or pleural cavity, is practically impossible to diagnose with certainty. Only a post mortem will tell if it was indeed dry FIP.

But if there is any abdominal fluid, a high viscosity of the fluid alone should be enough to confirm diagnosis, even without the blood test.

I know all about it, unfortunately, I lost a cat to 'wet FIP' and it is awful. I can only hope it isn't.
All fingers and paws crossed, here.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Really hoping it's just an infection and that miracle jab that the vet gives them, makes him better soon. 

I agree if this is a GCCF registered cat, the breeder needs reporting, due to her attitude, she sounds like she just breeds them for the money and uses a registration certificate to ease her conscience. Do not mean to offend those breeders that don't do this, but I'm sure you know where I am coming from.

I know how worried you must be. My best wishes to you and hoping everything works out.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Just caught up with this thread.I have no experience of FIP thank god and I hope and pray that your little one doesnt have this horrible disease.Wishing your kitten well and hope he pulls through.


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

Just an update, in case anyone is wondering! Vet called today and they re-checked for fluid on the lungs (drained yesterday), none has returned which she says is great news. He is running a fever, which she also says she's not TOO worried about as it means he is fighting the infection. He is eating a little. Still have to wait re FIP until Tuesday when results come in, but I am off to visit now and must try to keep it together! Fingers crossed - thanks again for all advice and discussion. Very interesting about FIP, I am having a read now. 
x


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

TeddyCat31 said:


> Just an update, in case anyone is wondering! Vet called today and they re-checked for fluid on the lungs (drained yesterday), none has returned which she says is great news. He is running a fever, which she also says she's not TOO worried about as it means he is fighting the infection. He is eating a little. Still have to wait re FIP until Tuesday when results come in, but I am off to visit now and must try to keep it together! Fingers crossed - thanks again for all advice and discussion. Very interesting about FIP, I am having a read now.
> x


Thanks for the update.Fingers and paws crossed that this is all good news and he has turned the corner.Our thoughts are with you and your little man xx


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks for the update 

Fingers crossed he just had a very bad infection

Looking forward to another good update.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Good news. Keeping everything crossed for you.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

All fingers and paws crossed here that kitty will be okay.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Everything still crossed here give him a gentle hug from us  x


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

How is he today? x


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I am very pleased to hear that the update is cautiously optimistic. Hopefully it will just be an infection that can be dealt with easily.
Shocking response from the breeder though and I hope you take that complaint further.


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

glad to hear he is a bit better!


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Still sending the postitive vibes to you.
I am glad that he is feeling better and will continue to do so. x


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

Please don't let the little one have FIP, please don't let it be FIP... That's what I said before opening this thread. I see you don't know yet, but I'm really pleased he seems a bit better. Fingers and paws crossed and lots of positive vibes. Hope he's okay.


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Misi said:


> Please don't let the little one have FIP, please don't let it be FIP... That's what I said before opening this thread. I see you don't know yet, but I'm really pleased he seems a bit better. Fingers and paws crossed and lots of positive vibes. Hope he's okay.


Let's hope someone up there is listening to you!!!


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

TeddyCat31 said:


> Just an update, in case anyone is wondering! Vet called today and they re-checked for fluid on the lungs (drained yesterday), none has returned which she says is great news. He is running a fever, which she also says she's not TOO worried about as it means he is fighting the infection. He is eating a little. Still have to wait re FIP until Tuesday when results come in, but I am off to visit now and must try to keep it together! Fingers crossed - thanks again for all advice and discussion. Very interesting about FIP, I am having a read now.
> x


This sounds good, with these developments, it is most likely to be a respiratory infection, and your little darling seems to be able to fight it properly!!
The fact that the fluid is not coming back means he is improving somewhat, and because he will breathe more easily, he will recover more easily, too.

All fingers and paws crossed here.


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

So sorry to tell you all that poor kitten was put to sleep today. They are almost 100% sure that it is FIP but we have asked for an autopsy to be extra-sure and for evidence. Breeder has been the most unhelpful person ever - just wanting to cover own back. Said we couldn't prove a thing without an autopsy and is still selling kittens online. I know for a fact that they were kept in the same room as mine. We will know results in a few days and I shall inform all of the relevant people.. 
So sad though. Devastating, really, to have a kitten who was sick from the start - I feel duped and SO sorry for the poor little thing who has suffered unnecessarily. I'm really angry. 
Thanks so much for all of the lovely comments and support - very much appreciated.


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## Chewie39 (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm so sorry 

The heartless breeder will get hers eventually, hope it's soon. I'm guessing she's not registered with any cat organisation but, if so, please, please report her to them, they must have rules about how she's behaved.

Hugs x


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## Mophie (Sep 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear about the little guy. The breeder sounds like a cruel horrible b***h.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

So sorry to hear this sad news.

The breeder if registered needs reporting to the organisation she is registered with.

My condolences. 

Run free at rainbow bridge little one.


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## Ianthi (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm really sorry to hear this as had hoped for a better outcome. How heartbreaking for you.

Regardless of the necropsy results you were evidently sold an unhealthy kitten and the breeder's attitude is disgraceful.

Run free little one.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Im so very, very sorry to hear your sad news was so hopeing your little one would pull through, sending huge hugs to you. 

Enjoy playing in the sunshine at the bridge brave little paws xxx


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## Cazzer (Feb 1, 2010)

so sorry to hear about the little man x x


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Oh I am so very sorry to hear this.
It is bitterly unfair that this happened to you in the first place, let alone that you now have to fight the breeder over it all.


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## Pheebs (Jun 8, 2011)

That is so sad, poor little mite, you must be heartbroken. The way the breeder is acting is beyond despicable. Doesn't she care about the kittens she's brought into the world.


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Very sad news. I am so sorry.
It is so heart breaking for you. You showed him love and care and although he was only with you that short time he knew you loved him.
He had some nice times with you which he would not have had if the so called breeder had still got him.
I hope this breeder gets what she deserves:mad5:
Right now you need time for bereavement and if you need us you know that we are all here for you on this forum.

R.I.P Little Kitten and have lots of fun at the Bridge xxx


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

So very sorry to read this sad news.Run free little one.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

So sorry. Has the breeder not even offered you your money back? Even if the 4 weeks Petplan breeder cover was still in place it would be the first thing I'd do though I know it can't make up for your loss.

I'm afraid it is classic for a kitten to succumb to FIP in this way and in this timescale. Not common but classic if it is going to happen. It takes a particular set of complicated circumstances which aren't necessarily anyone's fault. This could be the first time it has happened to this breeder and *at this stage* I'm not so much angry with her but more so with a breeding and veterinary community which points the finger and causes such a defensive attitude. Hopefully once you have the autopsy results she will have the sense to get the necessary information and support to eradicate FCoV from her household. I'm typing with one hand and 'touching wood' with the other as I say I have *so far* never had it happen to me but it could one day. It could happen to any breeder. What separates the good from the bad is not that it happens but how they react and deal with it.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

havoc said:


> So sorry. Has the breeder not even offered you your money back? Even if the 4 weeks Petplan breeder cover was still in place it would be the first thing I'd do though I know it can't make up for your loss.
> 
> I'm afraid it is classic for a kitten to succumb to FIP in this way and in this timescale. Not common but classic if it is going to happen. It takes a particular set of complicated circumstances which aren't necessarily anyone's fault. This could be the first time it has happened to this breeder and *at this stage* I'm not so much angry with her but more so with a breeding and veterinary community which points the finger and causes such a defensive attitude. Hopefully once you have the autopsy results she will have the sense to get the necessary information and support to eradicate FCoV from her household. I'm typing with one hand and 'touching wood' with the other as I say I have *so far* never had it happen to me but it could one day. It could happen to any breeder. What separates the good from the bad is not that it happens but how they react and deal with it.


Well put Havoc  It can be long & expensive for a breeder to have a Corona free household but it is possible & I do hope this breeder does acknowledge she has a problem & starts to deal with it asap, just a pity she has'nt been suportive to the op :frown2:


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## ChinaBlue (Feb 3, 2008)

TeddyCat31 said:


> So sorry to tell you all that poor kitten was put to sleep today. They are almost 100% sure that it is FIP but we have asked for an autopsy to be extra-sure and for evidence. Breeder has been the most unhelpful person ever - just wanting to cover own back. Said we couldn't prove a thing without an autopsy and is still selling kittens online. I know for a fact that they were kept in the same room as mine. We will know results in a few days and I shall inform all of the relevant people..
> So sad though. Devastating, really, to have a kitten who was sick from the start - I feel duped and SO sorry for the poor little thing who has suffered unnecessarily. I'm really angry.
> Thanks so much for all of the lovely comments and support - very much appreciated.


My heart goes out to you on the loss of the little one. At least in the very short time with you the kitten experienced lots of love - take some small comfort from that. So very sorry. 
Run free at the Bridge, baby.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_R I P Little one. I am so sorry for your loss, how very very sad._


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

I am so sorry to read about the kitty.  RIP poor Kitten.


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

I am so so sorry to hear this. It is very close to my heart as my kitten is the same breed and same ageso I can easily imagine how heartbroken you are.
Remember we are all here for support if you need us


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

Oh no! I'm so, so sorry


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

Thanks so much everyone. In a way it's a relief now. He is having an autopsy to prove FIP as breeder says it's not from her, we must have brought it in. (?!!!) He has never seen the outside... She now has the mother and father up for rehome. She is GCCF reg'd but am waiting for autopsy results before informing them. 
Some guidance, if I may ask? For the future when we will want to choose another kitten, how would we avoid this again? Is there a list of breeders who check for Coronavirus? Is it the 'done' thing to have certs to show that the cats are virus-free? The whole thing seems like a total minefield! I shall update as to what happens post-autopsy. This breeder is unreal.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

It is very difficult to be cleared for coronavirus - as far as I am aware very, very many cats carry the virus but exhibit no symptoms and are unaffected by it. It is endemic within the environment (inside and out). the virus can be brought in from outside on clothes and shoes etc. It is very difficult to eradicate completely, often lying dormant for years, or the whole of a cats life. I should imagine that a certificate would be only valid for a very short space of time and the constant blood tests would a) be financially unviable and b) stressful to the cat. FIP is a nasty disease, started by the coronavirus and unfortunately has no cure. Which kittens are susceptible to the coronavirus mutating into FIP is a lottery, stress plays a part, but other than that no-one can tell how or when or who it will hit. 

I understand that you are grief ridden and full of anger towards the breeder but it is actually possible that it didn't come from her and that is was caught at the vets or come in from clothing outside. I realise you need someone to blame and she isn't handling this very well, but it is entirely possible it ISN'T her fault just as it is entirely possible it is. I wish she had been more sympathetic and helped you through this, but she hasn't - she's probably scared as well, as having FIP in her cattery could decimate her lines etc and cause her immense financial problems. However, she should have offered you either another kitten from another litter or possibly your money back.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> she's probably scared as well, as having FIP in her cattery could decimate her lines etc and cause her immense financial problems


She probably is scared. Either because this has come as a complete shock to her or ................ because it hasn't. If it is a one off then the chances are it's bad luck and the corona virus can be cleared without too much effort and expense. It's the testing to see that it is clearing which costs and that can be spread out to minimise expense. If it's happened before then it's a genetic predisposition in the line and yes it could cost her dear IF she is of a mind to do something about it.

I don't think a complaint will be upheld. No rules have been broken and if this kitten was vaccinated etc. then it was seen by a vet twice, the last time about a week before it went to a new home. No vet will vaccinate a sick kitten so it would have been symptomless at that point and the breeder didn't knowingly sell a sick kitten as far as we know.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I know I ask my new owners to sign to say that as far as we both can tell the kitten is healthy and that they will take it to the vets in the first 48 hours to double check this (if they don't - it's sort of out of my hands then) - it's peace of mind for us both - I'd rather they walked away if they weren't happy. And I would hate to sell on a poorly kitten. I have a reputation to build up - but . . .if this happened to me I would be bricking it.

Having said that when I found out Minnii had HCM I contact all the kittens owners and told them and offered a replacement kitten if needed (not that I had any at that point) from a different queen I was running on. All were pleased with my honesty and none accepted my offer. All had checks done and only one kitten has a very, very slight murmur and is in fine fettle (and now older than as Minnii was when she was diagnosed and still doing exceptionally well)


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

OK, I do realise that it's very difficult to know for sure whether we bought him home with FIP but I can tell you that he was pretty sluggish from day 1. Breeder said he would be quiet and that he had been upset the day before due to final vaccinations. So I think we should have at least been offered a refund - nothing. She just doesn't want to know. 
I just want an FCoV negative kitten next time round - I know that doesn't 100% guarantee that the cat will never get FIP but it's as safe as I can be, surely? What do you all think? Is it something you have all requested when buying a kitten? Thanks!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

It's not something that I am aware of anyone offering? I expect you could ask a breeder to do it. But . . just found this on the web

"There still is no definitive test to diagnose FIP. *Nor is any affordable test to determine presence of Corona virus commerically available to breeders*. Current tests (titers) merely show us footprints of where a Corona virus has been. Tragically many cats, even healthy ones have been wrongly diagnosed and euthanized based on a positive result of a Corona titer! The only test for FIP remains the post mortem histological examination of tissues."

And this

'The researchers examined the usefulness of measuring coronavirus-specific antibodies, and they demonstrated that the presence of antibodies in general had a poor predictive value in diagnosing FIP. More interestingly, it was possible for cats to test negative (i.e. have no detectable antibodies against the coronavirus) and still have FIP; 10% of cats who truly had FIP had no detectable antibody on the test. '

So I expect you would have to pay for the test yourselves. And the trouble is the test isn't accurate. It though up both false positives and false negatives. It's not really worth the paper it is written on.

I am really sorry for your loss and as the kitten was lethargic from the off I really think you should have had your money back - next time (if you go down the route again) don't take home a kitten you aren't sure about no matter how much you want to, let the breeder get him/ her well and then pick him/ her up.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Breeder said he would be quiet and that he had been upset the day before due to final vaccinations. So I think we should have at least been offered a refund - nothing. She just doesn't want to know.


OK, I know I said earlier I wasn't angry with her at that stage - blood is starting to get warmer now and may reach boiling point in time. There obviously had been indications that all was not right with this kitten. She may not have recognised them for what they were but you don't send out a sluggish kitten! How long before you took the kitten had it had final vaccs?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Nor is any affordable test to determine presence of Corona virus commerically available to breeders.


Not only is it expensive, I actually question the value in the long term. Diane Addie's dream of a corona virus free cat world isn't achievable. This is *not* a disease limited to pedigree cats. Buying a kitten from an FCoV household doesn't guarantee that it's from non susceptible lines so the first time it comes into contact with the virus the risk is still there. I hold out a lot more hope for Pederson's work on finding the genetic markers for susceptibility. At least then breeders could ensure they are only breeding from lines which don't have any genetic predisposition to succumb to FIP.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

I think - he came home the day after the final vacs.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I think - he came home the day after the final vacs.


Not ideal. The GCCF recommendation (not a rule) that you wait at least 7 days is not always practical but the day after


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## jill3 (Feb 18, 2009)

Teddycat I think the breeder should refund you the money. The way you have been treated is awefull.
I can understand how nervous and fearful of having this again when choosing another Kitten.
If you are considering again sometime in the future which I think by what I have read you might do, you could go for an older one. We adopted a British at 11 months and you do still bond as quick as you would a smaller one.
I loved Harley right from when I first picked him up and cuddled him. 
I am sure the British Short haired club can help or Kelly Joy (I think her name is on here) might be able to help.


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## TeddyCat31 (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes, picked him up day after the final vaccination. I am just so nervy about it happening again! I'll contact the BSH club and see if they can help with FCoV negative lists - the annoying thing is that when I was hunting for the first kitten I kept seeing this come up "both sire and dam FCoV neg" but didn't know what it meant! Now can't remember where I saw it....


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Your problem with a claim of FCoV -ve is it's a bit like an MoT on a car. It means that was the result on the day of the test. You'd be better off asking for a Fecal RT-PCR test on the kitten.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

FIP is not contageous, so the kitten cannot have contracted it at the vet's.
Only the unmutated corona virus is contageous, and for that virus to mutate, become active and make a kitten sick in such a short time is highly unbelievable.

Kittens developing FIP symptoms at that age usually get the FIP virus (the MUTATED corona virus) from the mother. In a healthy cat it may be dormant for many years. Generally speaking, it only activates in very young, old and weak, or severely stressed cats.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Kittens developing FIP symptoms at that age usually get the FIP virus (the MUTATED corona virus) from the mother.


Can you give me your references for this please. It is a subject I'm interested in and follow most research closely. Dr Addie claimed she had a 100% success rate with her early weaning protocol in ensuring kittens were not infected if they were removed from an infected mother at around 5 weeks of age. That this was not repeated in 'normal' life conditions is to me an indication that this blasted virus is easily transported and certainly doesn't require intimate sharing of litter trays, although litter tray protocols are of vast importance.



> Only the unmutated corona virus is contageous, and for that virus to mutate, become active and make a kitten sick in such a short time is highly unbelievable


I believe it can be as little as two weeks if all the conditions are in place. Admittedly, in all the cases I have followed the more normal process is that the kittens show signs of the runs to a greater or lesser extent at around 5/6 weeks. I hear breeders say things like 'he was the biggest and is now the smallest'. If this then becomes the quiet 'subdued' kitten it would cause me to worry and test. I have never followed a case of a 'hot' outbreak where more than one kitten in a litter has succumbed to FIP but would be extremely interested to hear from anyone who does have knowledge of this.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Teddycat -- I am very, very sorry to hear of the sad loss of your dear little 
kitten. I had so hoped last week that somehow he would pull through, and I am upset to read what has happened. 

With regard to finding another breeder, when I was looking to buy 2 BSH kittens 18 yrs ago, it took me about a year of researching to find a breeder whose experience, background and attitude to her cats I felt comfortable with. I also chose on the basis of how the kittens were housed (i.e. they were in the house with the family, not stuck away in pens) until they were homed, how helpful & informative the breeder was with me, with regard to 
possible health issues of the breed , plus the history of which of her queens were mated with which studs, and the history of the studs. 

Eventually I found a breeder I was happy with, and bought 2 gorgeous Silver BSH kittens from her, who were very healthy all their lives, and the most wonderful companions for me and my husband. They lived until they were 18 yrs old. I couldn't have asked for a better experience. Perhaps I was just lucky, but I think my extreme caution in choosing a breeder was wise. 

I wish you all the very best. 

Thinking of you....

Minx


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

Im only going off my experience with this dam disease  we bought an MC kitten from a local breeder who was fine for a week or so then started showing signs of breathing problems  the vet at the time was convinced HCM as he had recently had to pts our old MC because of it  anyway, Merlin did'nt have the runs his appittite was excellent he just was'nt right, he had to have his lungs drained then a week or so of umpteen pills had a ultra sound which was'nt conclusive for HCM  I spoke to the breeder who was distraught one of his brothers, who she still had, had just been pts with FIP  Merlin went the same way  she immediately offerd us a refund & another kitten if we wanted one.

Turned out she had recently bought a stud cat who accidently was put in the same room with Merlin & his brother who had just had there last vacination  the stud became very ill with Coronavirus he had months of isolation & blood tests untill his titire came down to less than 10 she had to have all her other cats tested as we did 

We have Louie who's dad is the stud who had'nt showed any signs of illness when put with Louie's mum, Louie's litter was weaned at 6 weeks to be sure the kittens were ok even though mum tested clear. He is a wondrful cat but a little skitish for an MC so the early weaning may be the reason. Tango came from the same breeder & was very ill last year, straight away I thought corona  so did our vet just becasue of the history anyway his blood test titre was something along the lines of less than 2 :thumbup1: which could just have been stress with him being ill with what seemed like cat flu but still none the wiser & he is fighting fit 

Anyway the breeder of the stud told our breeder it was her own fault for haveing a Corona free cattery  :mad5: in my book that is something to be proud of. The stud breeder has a realy bad reputation which our breeder & I did'nt know untill we did some diging & it did'nt take much  what we found out beggers belief :mad5: 

We spent a lot of time soul searching before we took Louie but had no hesitation in getting Tango we know their breeder does the very best for her cats & dont blame her for Merlins death  we all make mistakes, its how you put things right that matters & I would have expected the op's breeder to have done the same


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> anyway Merlin did'nt have the runs


Wouldn't have by the time he went to a new home. I believe it is a symptom of FCoV when they catch it and it doesn't cause huge problems other than runny tums at around weaning. FcoV doesn't usually cause more than transient, mild symptoms. It is the combination of signs from those I've followed which I'd now call 'typical' of the kitten which is going to succumb to FIP if the litter is FCoV +ve. I guess it would be much harder to tell in a 'hot' outbreak as 'quieter than the rest' or 'somehow just not right' wouldn't stand out.


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## ejrogers (Sep 7, 2009)

Teddycat31, I just wanted to say how so so sorry I am about what happened to your beautiful kitten.
I also bought a BSH kitten from a breeder about 4 months ago and I became just as attached just as quickly as you, its hard not to when they're so beautiful and so helpless at that age.
I had a similar experience to you when I bought my kitten only fortunately for me it wasn't as serious and she is now on the mend.
I bought my kitten in good faith, after the breeder assured me she was healthy, and to be fair she did look healthy on the day I bought her.
Only 2 days later it transpired that she had various parasite infections which more than likely would have come from the breeder's home. She was so poorly, we nearly lost her a couple of times, and we have spent about £800 on treatment which wasn't covered on our insurance, but at least she is now on the mend.
I guess the moral of the story is that no matter how careful you are and how healthy the kitten looks when you get him or her, its very difficult to be completely sure, you just have to do everything you can within your own power.

Again, I'm so sorry, I can only imagine how awful you must be feeling..


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

havoc said:


> Can you give me your references for this please. It is a subject I'm interested in and follow most research closely.


Feline Infectious Peritonitis (FIP)

I also attended a one-day seminar on feline infections organized by a Dutch organisation, and I specifically asked about the corona virus and FIP.
They said that the 'harmless' corona virus is most definitely contageous, but that the mutated form that causes FIP is now believed to be not - or hardly -contageous.
According to this lecturer, FIP was caused by mutation of a harmless version of the corona virus inside the host, and not by transmission of the mutated FIP virus from one cat to another. He did mention queen/kittens as an exception, though...... 
In most cases, the original corona virus will never mutate into the FIP virus.

I also read somewhere (can't remember where) that they are not quite sure whether the virus mutates into FIP and lies dormant untill the cat's immune system is weakened, or that the weakened immune system is the trigger for the virus to mutate.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> He did mention queen/kittens as an exception, though......


That's the bit I'd like to follow up the references for. The rest is standard info but I would like to read more on queens passing on an already mutated virus to their kittens. I've never seen anything on this.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

havoc said:


> Wouldn't have by the time he went to a new home. I believe it is a symptom of FCoV when they catch it and it doesn't cause huge problems other than runny tums at around weaning. FcoV doesn't usually cause more than transient, mild symptoms. It is the combination of signs from those I've followed which I'd now call 'typical' of the kitten which is going to succumb to FIP if the litter is FCoV +ve. I guess it would be much harder to tell in a 'hot' outbreak as 'quieter than the rest' or 'somehow just not right' wouldn't stand out.


He & his brother never showed any signs of illness with the breeder, we got him 2 weeks after his final vacination, when we picked him up he was playing with Tango's dad who was a couple of weeks older he was/is fine but was'nt near the stud. Merlins titre test was'nt that high just showed he had been exposed to the virus where as the stud's test was in the thousands.

I can understand why they call it the "Purring disease" thats all Merlin did up to his last trip to the vets  the sooner the clever peeps come up with a cure the better.


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

havoc said:


> That's the bit I'd like to follow up the references for. The rest is standard info but I would like to read more on queens passing on an already mutated virus to their kittens. I've never seen anything on this.


That is very worrying


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Merlins titre test was'nt that high just showed he had been exposed to the virus


I don't think the titre is necessarily high in a kitten with wet FIP. I believe it's often high in dry FIP. The stud having a high count probably meant nothing more than the infection was reasonably recent. We tend to forget when talking about FCoV that for most viral infections a high level of antibodies is a good thing.

What I believe is important to breeders looking to clear it from their households is whether the cat is shedding the virus rather than has a high antibody titre so the RT-PCR test is extremely useful. It's highly important to keep shedders from mixing with the clear cats but a high antibody level from a cat which isn't shedding is not in itself the danger.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> That's the bit I'd like to follow up the references for. The rest is standard info but I would like to read more on queens passing on an already mutated virus to their kittens. I've never seen anything on this.
> That is very worrying


It doesn't fit with anything I've ever read, heard at seminars or with my own observations over the years. Nor does it make sense for the single kitten out of a litter succumbing to FIP when the rest are fine. It does however, account for the author's earlier assertion -


> for a kitten to have FIP, the mother must have it too, which means she is going to die of it, too


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## jenny armour (Feb 28, 2010)

have just caught up with this subject and am very sorry to hear about your baby boy.
if it helps i do know of someone who sort of runs an advice centre for FIP cat owners and if you need someone to talk to it may help


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Information from a Dutch veterianry clinic



> Is FIP wel of niet besmettelijk?
> Wanneer in een groep katten FIP optreedt beperkt de ziekte zich vaak tot een enkele kat. Het "FIP"-virus lijkt zich niet gemakkelijk te verspreiden. Het is mogelijk dat het "FIP"-virus, dat door deze kat wordt uitgescheiden, niet meer besmettelijk is voor andere katten. Een andere theorie is dat andere katten wel besmet worden door het "FIP"-virus maar dat zij voldoende bescherming hebben doordat zij antilichamen hebben tegen het onschuldige coronavirus. Er zal in de komende jaren meer onderzoek gedaan moeten worden om meer te weten te komen over FIP.


Translation
Is FIP contageous or not?
When FIP occurs in a clowder of cats, the disease is usually limited to one single cat. Apparently, the 'FIP'virus isn't easily transmitted. It is possible that the FIP virus being spread by this cat is no longer contageous to other cats. An other theroy is that other cats do get infected by the FIP virus, but that their resistance is adequate, due to antibodies against the hharmless corona virus. More research will be necessary in the years to come to gain more knowledge concerning FIP.

Ron Hines DVM PhD has written a long article on FIP and gives another explanation why FIP hardly seems to be transmitted from one cat to another.



> How Is FIP and Coronavirus Transmitted Between Cats - Where Did My Cat Catch It ?
> 
> First off, most veterinarians do not believe that FIP is transmitted between cats. At least we do not believe that it is common for one cat to catch FIP from another. That assumption is based on the fact that FIP-infected cats appear to shed very little virus. Remember, we think that FIP is caused only by a mutated coronavirus. Once the virus mutates, under natural home conditions, it seems to lose its ability to move from one cat to another.
> 
> ...


This may be the study the Dutch vet whose lecture I attended was refering to...

One brochure states that 


> FCoV may possibly be transmitted across the placenta.


The Paw Blog states that


> One of the commonest scenarios is an infected (but asymptomatic) queen passing on the disease to her kittens.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> One brochure states that
> Quote:
> FCoV may possibly be transmitted across the placenta.


As far as I'm aware it's accepted that this isn't the case. It was once under question but that was quite some time ago.



> The Paw Blog states that
> Quote:
> One of the commonest scenarios is an infected (but asymptomatic) queen passing on the disease to her kittens.


Does this mean FCoV or is this where you found the info claiming a queen will pass on the already mutated virus to her kittens? It is this claim which is new to many (most) of us and why a reference to the academic source would be of great interest.


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