# Male dog become aggressive since neutering



## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

My male chi has always been very vocal when it comes to meeting other dogs, never nasty just noisey and would always happily play with other dogs after he'd finished shouting at them. I had him neutered a while ago and since then my mum has mentioned various times that jake is becoming a nasty little sod towards other dogs. Now i've never noticed it myself but I tend to walk them all seperately whereas my mum walks them all together. When I walk him on his own I can walk him past most dogs without any reaction not even a bark, hes a perfect dog, but as soon as hes with the girls he switches. 

Tonite my mums informed me that jake chased a rather large dog in the field and went for it. Im shocked that hes behaved like this, my mum is convinced that its since he was neutered.
Has any one elses dog had similar behaviour after being neutered?
Im not really sure what to do with him now, how do you correct this type of behaviour when the dog is so fixated on the other dog? I take 1 of the girls to training for socialisation i'm wondering if I should take him instead, or do I get him into the kennels with all the other dogs, he needs to learn quick before he picks on the wrong dog


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## hope (May 25, 2011)

hello im sure someone will be along to help you but i just did not want to read and leave .your dogs are so stunning im in love with them


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Nataliee said:


> My male chi has always been very vocal when it comes to meeting other dogs, never nasty just noisey and would always happily play with other dogs after he'd finished shouting at them. I had him neutered a while ago and since then my mum has mentioned various times that jake is becoming a nasty little sod towards other dogs. Now i've never noticed it myself but I tend to walk them all seperately whereas my mum walks them all together. When I walk him on his own I can walk him past most dogs without any reaction not even a bark, hes a perfect dog, but as soon as hes with the girls he switches.
> 
> Tonite my mums informed me that jake chased a rather large dog in the field and went for it. Im shocked that hes behaved like this, my mum is convinced that its since he was neutered.
> Has any one elses dog had similar behaviour after being neutered?
> Im not really sure what to do with him now, how do you correct this type of behaviour when the dog is so fixated on the other dog? I take 1 of the girls to training for socialisation i'm wondering if I should take him instead, or do I get him into the kennels with all the other dogs, he needs to learn quick before he picks on the wrong dog


A lot depends on what and why he was doing before he was neutered. Could be that his barking/being vocal pre neutering was in fact being unsure of other dogs until he weighed up the situation, then when he decided it was OK then he played. The barking could have been a way to ward them off and give him the space. If a dog is uncertain or of a slightly nervous nature then as they mature testosterone can give them more confidence, Im just wonderng if he has never been the most confident of dogs and now he has had the testosterone (confidence booster) removed its made him more unsure and unconfident. 
Not all dogs that appear aggresive do it because they are "nasty" a lot of the time its fear aggression and lack of confidence. Sort of best method of defence is attack. May be he practices avoidence on his own when seeing/passing other dogs, but with the girls there he switches to fear/defensive aggression maybe because he has got some back up. Sometimes it can be whos handling them too. Ive seen dogs that will go for everything and anything, be walked by another member of the family and you wouldnt believe its the same dog.

Just possible scenarios of course as cant see him to see exactly what he does.
If you have a really good trainer at your socialisation classes, then I would perhaps take him for the socialisation and she can also assess him by watching exactly what and why he does it if shes any good. If Ive understood correctly had your mum got him off lead? If he was as he is acting like this, then it might be wise to keep him on lead until you get something sorted, He may well pick on the wrong dog, and if that happened hes not exactly going to be able to defend himslef from something much larger is he.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

The bigger the other dog is the more noise he will make usually. Can a dog be over confident though? Because thats what it seems like with him, he will go up to any dog and bark in their face if we haven't got him on a lead quick enough, whereas my girls who are a little bit under confident (1 alot worse than the other) will do anything to avoid confronting another dog, and maybe jake feels he needs to defend them?
He was just over 2 years when I had him neutered I felt he had matured enough by then.
He has also recently started bullying my mums dog which I have noticed, he makes nasty sounds at him when we are about to throw a toy or something that they both want, and he will sometimes nip at him. When my mums dog and 1 of my girls play chase jake runs after them trying to bite them, may be his way of playing now but it doesn't look friendly, and he has also got a bit more aggresive when play fighting with her as she often yelps because hes mouthed her too hard

I think my mum has started keeping him on a lead now, certainly when other dogs are in sight anyway. Shes going to take him out on his own today to see how he acts too. 
The trainer at classes is a work collegue and she also runs a dog day care so i'm thinking maybe if I put him in a few days a week she could help him? My concern is that he runs into daycare, shouts at all the dogs, picks on the wrong 1 and gets attacked


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`m afraid this isn`t unknown and tbh timid males should be helped to overcome their fears before neutering. 
Testosterone makes a dog feel more brave. Less testosterone through neutering makes his fear worse. (Conversely, bolshie bitches will be worse after neutering due to the percentage increase in testosterone)
However - there is a lot you can do to increase your dog`s confidence and change his behaviour. 
Work on his recall - when you see him stiffen, recall him and praise. You are teaching him an alternative behaviour for when he feels threatened. 
On lead, teach a Watch Me, and when he starts to react, use it to get his attention and reward. If he is too anxious to respond, turn away from the `threat` and move to a distance he feels safe, and do it. You are teaching him that he is safe with you. 
Positive training makes a dog feel good - so do lots. 
Find an activity he is good at - this will also increase his confidence.

eta - google BAT training methods.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Nataliee said:


> The bigger the other dog is the more noise he will make usually. Can a dog be over confident though?
> 
> *For over confident do you mean rude?*
> 
> ...


Exactly. TBH it does not sound as though your problems are necessarily related to neutering more about failure of control by the owner..........


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I`m afraid this isn`t unknown and tbh timid males should be helped to overcome their fears before neutering.
> Testosterone makes a dog feel more brave. Less testosterone through neutering makes his fear worse. (Conversely, bolshie bitches will be worse after neutering due to the percentage increase in testosterone)
> However - there is a lot you can do to increase your dog`s confidence and change his behaviour.
> Work on his recall - when you see him stiffen, recall him and praise. You are teaching him an alternative behaviour for when he feels threatened.
> ...


Hes certainly not timid lol, the way he runs up to a dog he looks brave. I found the opposite with my bitch though she seems to have become more confident since being spayed.
Thank u for the suggestions, I will try those with him and hopefully we'll start getting somewhere


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Exactly. TBH it does not sound as though your problems are necessarily related to neutering more about failure of control by the owner..........


If this was the case why has he only become aggresive since neutering? Surely if it was a failure on our part he would have been aggresive a long time a go. 
He is always on lead when other dogs are near, its only on the rare occastion that a dog comes charging out of nowhere and we dont get to him quick enough that he will run over barking. The reason he was off lead with that dog yesterday was because I told my mum it could be just on the lead thats making him defencive so she asked that owner if it was ok to let jake off and they said yes but as soon as this other dog and my mums dog started playing jake ran after it ,and according to my mum, tried to bite it so he is now staying on lead all the time.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

I agree with Sled dog. You would need to think back to how he was prior to neutering. Just because he was/is mouthy, it doesn't mean he's confident. Ever heard the term that the best form of defence is attack ?

Contrary to popular belief, gobby, mouthy, aggressive dogs are generally very unconfident. Confident dogs have no need of such displays because they are sure of their own abilities.

If your boy was under confident prior to the castration, it's possible that the lack of testosterone since the castration has made him worse and so he's now using every weapon in his arsenal (because he know's it works) to get the "threat" to get the hell away from him. 

I would get him assessed by a behaviourist and work on building his confidence in the presence of other dogs, because one day he'll gob off at the wrong dog and there could be awful consequences.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Must admit he is a little bit of a contradiction. From your first post pre and post neutering, I was more convinced that it was mostly insecurity/uncertainty/fearfulness. The behaviour is more common on lead especially where an uncertain dog being literally stuck where he is, not being able to exercise flight (run away) or avoidence give himself some space and send calming signals, left with no alternative often goes too, the barking lunging and looking scary, hoping that its enough to make the other dog back off. Usually it does become learned you either remove the dog, or the other owner removes theirs, so to his mind it works, what works is repeated next time and again and again if the problem isnt sorted out.

I notice now though that you say, he goes right up to a dog and barks into his face when off lead too, when he has go the freedom and space of flight, run away when he is uncertain, or avoidence move back a little to decide if the dogs ok before engaging and/or if not sure send calming signals etc before interacting.
As you have also said recently he is bullying your mums dog too, and challenges him for things, and even runs after and trys to nip and sometimes makes the girls yelp with play fighting too. The girls of course it could just be over excitement during play/hyper behaviour and maybe lack of early bite inhibition when young. dogs can get mouthy and nippy and hyper with over excitement so that may explain that one with the girls.

The thing I find the Anomaly is the Bullying of the other male and challenging.
Is your mums dog neutered and what age is he? It could be if he is a pup/going into adolescence his puppy licence is running out so thats why your dog feels the need to bully now, or if he is quite a relaxed personality your Boy feels he can bully him because he can sort of thing ie he isnt a challenge so can get away with it or as far as he goes. It still doesnt explain though entirely why when he doesnt have to do the defensive bravado and can practice flight running away or avoidence a lot easier as he is off lead why then does he go right up too the dog and bark in its face. Unless of course he will only pick on ones he knows or feels wont challenge back. Only other thing I can think of is because, he has done it for so long and its so learned, he does it wether off lead or on, as a defence because even off lead he gets removed or the other owner calls their dog off so its still as result a such, also of course he has never actually come unstuck doing it yet either.

Without actually seeing him or getting him properly assessed though its hard to be sure. Sounds like it may not be a cut and dried exact reason behind it though.
Or for what its worth thats my thoughts anyway. Just weighing up various scenarios thats all.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Daneandrottiemum said:


> Contrary to popular belief, gobby, mouthy, aggressive dogs are generally very unconfident. Confident dogs have no need of such displays because they are sure of their own abilities.
> 
> If your boy was under confident prior to the castration, it's possible that the lack of testosterone since the castration has made him worse and so he's now using every weapon in his arsenal (because he know's it works) to get the "threat" to get the hell away from him.


Yes - truly confident dogs are calm around others, not yappy. If the OPs dog were a German Shepherd and charged up to others barking would she still say he were confident? A confident dog would be happy to play or to ignore others, not feel the need to shout.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Well whatever he is he needs sorting lol.
I don't know if this will have anything to do with his behaviour but shortly after he was neutered he was really ill and went on the drip for a few days. 
My mums dog is nearly 5 yrs old and hes neuterd.
When I took him to see a friend and her dogs her mastiff tried to play with jake (both dogs were on leads) but jake wouldn't have it and kept growling but he did walk with him no problem, he can be walked with other dogs on leads and not be bothered by them at all.
When jakes son tayo comes over tayo can be a bit of a bully towards jake and jake will always walk away from the situation


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Jake will accept other strange dogs in the house too, we've had other chis, papillions, labs and my staffy foster ruby (who was slightly DA) and while the girls ran away from all of them jake would go and say hello without even barking, he was especially taken with the staffy and they had a great time running around together. These dogs were all female though, and before he was neutered so I wonder what he'd be like now.
Maybe he is just getting bored on his walks?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Nataliee said:


> Jake will accept other strange dogs in the house too, we've had other chis, papillions, labs and my staffy foster ruby (who was slightly DA) and while the girls ran away from all of them jake would go and say hello without even barking, he was especially taken with the staffy and they had a great time running around together. These dogs were all female though, and before he was neutered so I wonder what he'd be like now.
> Maybe he is just getting bored on his walks?


Be interestng to see if the dogs outside he always reacts to are males too?
If it is maybe its male dogs he feels challenged and threatened by more then anything confidence wise so is more reactive. Ask your mum to keep a note if it is. As said you can only make educated gueses on here anyway. Whatever or whyever he does it it needs sorting, and the only way to do this is get him properly assessed and behavour modification put in place. I would deffinately take him to the trainer where the girls are going a the moment. He needs it more then them by the sounds of it.
All in all they sound pretty together as far as their behaviour goes.


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## sunshine80 (Jan 25, 2010)

I have a similar problem with Sonny since I got him neutured but with him it is definately that he is scared he is not agrressive with other dogs and yes the larger the dog the worse he is.

To be honest looking back I should not have got him neutured as I had never had any problems with him and his confidence was low before hand. Since he got neutured he is just a wimp  He barks when ever he sees a large dog and can sound aggressive he barks at any large dogs but has barked at Akitas, German Shepherds and Rotwillers recently which worries me as one day one of these dogs is going to react to him. Not sure what to suggest to help as I have not found much that helps Sonny but will be watching the thread with interest.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i'm sorry to disagree, but i do not believe that neutering *causes* aggro in dogs - 
except in the extremely-rare case of bitches who are *already extremely-aggro before desex.* 
several vet-behaviorists have opined on this, & in all cases, the aggro was so beyond the norm that the bitch 
was under a CAAB or vet-behaviorist's oversight when she was spayed; these are not 'normal' bitches.

how old is the Chi in the OP?

aggro in male-pups & male dogs toward other dogs is a function of age; juvie male-pups show minimal aggro 
toward any male-dog, which begins to change around puberty [approx 6-MO] & increases thru their 9th-month, 
when *peak testosterone* occurs - the teen-pup of 9 to 10-MO has *5 to 7-times* the levels 
of an adult-male dog of 15 to 18-MO or over!

it would be perfectly predictable that at 5 to 7-MO, his inclination is to bark a warning to get more distance, 
while the same dog at 8 to 10-MO or over will add teeth to his warning; that not neutering, it's maturation. 
even post-puberty, SOCIAL maturation continues, & dogs [male or female] continue to change & develop.

social-adulthood in toy-dogs is around 12-MO to 15-MO; in the medium-large breeds like Labs, Goldens, etc, 
it's 24-MO; in Giant-breeds & Giant-crosses of 120# or more, it's about 3-YO.


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## Set_Nights (Sep 13, 2010)

It may look like he is being brave but quite often very nervous dogs will have this "fake bravado" as a last ditch effort because they don't feel they have any other option to protect themselves. I think seeing a trainer is a very good idea and, as others have said, keeping him on a lead and away from other dogs, or at least under controlled circumstances, until this is sorted. All it would take is for him to wind up the wrong dog and even a warning bite from a large dog could be the end of your boy .


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Be interestng to see if the dogs outside he always reacts to are males too?
> If it is maybe its male dogs he feels challenged and threatened by more then anything confidence wise so is more reactive. Ask your mum to keep a note if it is. As said you can only make educated gueses on here anyway. Whatever or whyever he does it it needs sorting, and the only way to do this is get him properly assessed and behavour modification put in place. I would deffinately take him to the trainer where the girls are going a the moment. He needs it more then them by the sounds of it.
> All in all they sound pretty together as far as their behaviour goes.


I know he has barked at females too but only when they have been at a distance, so i guess it probably is males that he has an issue with?


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

sunshine80 said:


> I have a similar problem with Sonny since I got him neutured but with him it is definately that he is scared he is not agrressive with other dogs and yes the larger the dog the worse he is.
> 
> To be honest looking back I should not have got him neutured as I had never had any problems with him and his confidence was low before hand. Since he got neutured he is just a wimp  He barks when ever he sees a large dog and can sound aggressive he barks at any large dogs but has barked at Akitas, German Shepherds and Rotwillers recently which worries me as one day one of these dogs is going to react to him. Not sure what to suggest to help as I have not found much that helps Sonny but will be watching the thread with interest.


Jake tried to take on a rottie in the vet too 



leashedForLife said:


> i'm sorry to disagree, but i do not believe that neutering *causes* aggro in dogs -
> except in the extremely-rare case of bitches who are *already extremely-aggro before desex.*
> several vet-behaviorists have opined on this, & in all cases, the aggro was so beyond the norm that the bitch
> was under a CAAB or vet-behaviorist's oversight when she was spayed; these are not 'normal' bitches.
> ...


He is 2 and half yrs old, and was neutered at around 2 yrs 3 months, i think the barking started at around 6/7 months old and the "nasty" behaviour has started in the last 2/3 months



Set_Nights said:


> It may look like he is being brave but quite often very nervous dogs will have this "fake bravado" as a last ditch effort because they don't feel they have any other option to protect themselves. I think seeing a trainer is a very good idea and, as others have said, keeping him on a lead and away from other dogs, or at least under controlled circumstances, until this is sorted. All it would take is for him to wind up the wrong dog and even a warning bite from a large dog could be the end of your boy .


But he could always run away (when off leash)
Will speak to the trainer when i'm at work tommorow though, and see if she thinks he will benefit going into day care maybe once a week, or if not see what else she thinks will help


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nataliee said:


> Jake tried to take on a rottie in the vet too
> 
> He's 2.5-YO, & was neutered ~ 2 yrs & 3 mos; i think the barking started at around 6 - 7-MO,
> and the "nasty" behaviour has started in the last 2 - 3 mos.
> ...


_Yipe. _ :scared:

he reacts to other dogs who are also LEASHED, does he not, when he is leashed?

& RUNS from dogs who scare him when off-leash???!!

he is NOT a candidate for dog-daycare, IMO - he needs B-Mod at his own pace, so that "other dogs" 
becomes a reliable predictor of Good THings Will Happen. This is a step-by-step process AT THE DOG'S PACE, 
so that he stays under threshold & does not continue to rehearse reacting - IOW he remains calm, 
altho aware of the other dog's presence.


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## WelshYorkieLover (Oct 16, 2011)

He may have lost his confidence now that he's lost his boy bits.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

WelshYorkieLover said:


> He may have lost his confidence now that he's lost his boy bits.


:frown: :cryin:  :mad2:   :nonod: :eek6: : :eek6: :sad: :angry: :laugh: :yikes: :thumbdown: :rolleyes5: :incazzato: :sosp: :001_unsure: ut: :cursing: hmy: :crying: :blink: :crazy: :skep: :mad5: :shocked: :frown2: :


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> _Yipe. _ :scared:
> 
> he reacts to other dogs who are also LEASHED, does he not, when he is leashed?
> 
> ...


No he DOESN'T run away when off lead, he runs UP TO the other dog barking.

And I don't quite understand your explanation of why removal of testosterone isn't related to confidence levels? You only stated what you have heard of happening, and when a dog reaches maturity.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

The day care classes are quite small no more than 10 dogs so I think he would be ok, he might even enjoy himself after 5 mins of barking lol.
Last night 1 of the girls gave jake a warning (they both wanted the nylabone) and he backed off but I noticed there is 1 toy that he appears to be quite possesive over if the others go for it he runs over and snatches it
I've just remembered when I took him round my dads and they had a young un neutered staffy round there (jake was also not neutered) I think jake was actually quite scared of him at first- and when it tried to play with him he'd warn it off but then he just ran around the garden doing his own thing completely ignoring the staffy


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by Set_Nights
> 
> 'It may look like [bravery], but quite often very-nervous dogs will have this "fake bravado" as a last-ditch effort
> ...they... feel they [must] protect themselves.
> ...





Nataliee said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> But he could always *run away (when off leash).*


that's where i got the impression he runs FROM other dogs, when off-leash.

i still strongly advocate CONTROLLED interactions with one dog at a time, not the off-leash melee of daycare. 
he needs to remain *under threshold* - 


Nataliee said:


> The daycare classes are quite small, ...10 dogs [max] - so I think he'd be ok, he might even enjoy himself
> after 5 mins of barking. :lol:


*10 dogs is still Nine More than is advisable*, & "5-minutes of barking" is not a joking matter.

please see Dr Karen Overall's page, k9aggression.com for protocols to reduce reactivity. 
What is Behavior Modification? | k9aggression.com

the book _'Click to Calm'_ is an excellent & very safe DIY manual for all reactive issues, whether fear, 
over-excitement, anger, aggro, etc - See YouTube & search for "look at that", "control unleashed", 
or "click to calm" for many videos on the subject.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I do hope you're going to explain what I asked


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nataliee said:


> He's 2.5-YO [30-MO], & was neutered at around 27-months.
> 
> i think the barking started at around 6 to 7-MO
> & the "nasty" behaviour... started in the last 2 to 3 months.


 - he's been barking at other dogs to SEND THEM AWAY [a distance-increasing behavior or signal] 
since puberty - *two years ago.* Why was this not addressed before it became more intense? 

- he's been asking for *help to protect himself for two years*, & U have not been a good advocate IMO. 
preventing him from being molested or overwhelmed by circumstances is part & parcel of being a parent - 
that's the role we play lifelong with our dogs, as they're dependent on us thru-out their lives, as pups & adults.

- after trying & failing for so long to get some help, he's given-up & taken things into his own paws - 
& possibly teeth - as he sees no alternative; he FEELS threatened by other dogs, whether that's accurate or not. 
It may be sheer paranoia on his part, or possibly some of those dogs are genuine threats; who knows? 
he may see threats where there are none, or be quite accurate in thinking that this particular dog or that 
really WOULD chomp him, if they had the chance...

- in any case, *this did not arise because he was desexed - 
he's been vocally reactive to other dogs since puberty, & no intervention to retrain the behavior was done, 
no B-Mod to help him associate 'other dog' = 'good things arrive'.

it's very likely that if an experienced trainer had seen him at 8-WO or 4-MO, pre-puberty, they would have seen 
something BEFORE the barking began, that would have flagged him then as shy or worried by other dogs.

"behavior continues & intensifies if there is no intervention"
if we do not make an effort to alter the dog's emotional reaction to a trigger, that reaction becomes more & more 
fluent: faster, on less provocation, & more habitual. It is now an entrenched habit, which will take longer 
to change, as he has done this for 2 solid years of his 30-months of life.

that said, the sooner B-mod begins, the sooner U will see some good results. :yesnod:

Flooding, however [putting him in situations he cannot handle, LIKE daycare, a dog-park, etc], 
are definitely contraindicated & will only make things worse. Good luck - let us know 
how he gets on. :thumbup1:*


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Seriously? Are you not going to explain HOW neutering has no effect?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Shrap said:


> Are you not going to explain HOW neutering has no effect?


Seriously? No, i'm not. It should be self-apparent that desex, which has become the standard 
in much of the USA, if not Europe / the UK, does not doom a dog to a life of cringing anxiety. 
in the Northeast-USA, over 80% of male-dogs are desexed, & they have fewer reported problems 
with serious behavioral issues, overall, then the rest of the country, which is less urban, less dense, 
& has a lower desex-ratio; moreover, dog-parks & dog-daycares are extremely common there, 
& very few dogs have access to unfenced areas for off-leash exercise, let alone dog-social play.

that means this dog-popn is in frequent unavoidable contact with other dogs, on sidewalks, in parks, 
in apt-buildings, condos & other gated developments, in dog-parks, on beaches, & so forth. 
OTHER DOGS are inescapable; the area is densely developed, with the open-areas often dog-exclusion zones 
[state parks, national parks, historic areas, etc]. Despite their high desex-ratio, or *more likely, 
because of their high desex-ratio,* the dog-popn of New England & northeast-USA does very well, 
in crowded urban & suburban settings & contexts.

across the USA as a whole:
most dog-parks & dog-daycares REQUIRE that client's dogs be desexed, whether M or F - all dogs 
are desexed to enter & engage in free play, or they are not welcome & can be evicted on sight. 
cage-free kennels or open-boarding facilities ALSO almost-invariably require that boarding dogs be desexed; 
they have no interest in dogs leg-lifting on the furnishings, coping with the complications of bitches in heat, 
separating intact-male combatants, bullying, etc - understandably.

their clients' dogs seem to be quite socially-competent; NOT the shrinking-violets that this scare-story 
would predict them to be: shy, easily intimidated, socially inhibited, & so on.

Q: 
If male-dogs are such delicate blossoms that desex destroys their confidence, why are so many current 
male *working dogs* in the military, Border Patrol, police, etc, desexed?

a few decades ago, *MEN* IN THE POLICE & MILITARY insisted that 'male dogs need to be intact 
to work, they need that *aggression, that edge, that testosterone gives them...*  Bull.

it's a myth that working-dogs 'need' testes - Working dogs need *training*, not testes. 
one does not substitute for the other, nor are testicles required for cop-k9s, contraband, patrol-k9s, 
or other paramilitary, SAR, tactical k9-jobs. Female dogs & desexed males do the job just as well - 
tho their [intact] male-handlers may prefer a dog with dangly bits, in which case, i recommend _*Neuticles*_ 
wholeheartedly, even for the females if they want to make a statement.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

It is not uncommon for dogs who are fearful of other dogs to run up to every dog they see, and often bark at them. 
Just as humans who are scared of something will react in different ways, some will shy away, others will rush to get on with it.
In my experience male dogs who are already under-confident are often made worse by castration. Dogs without confidence issues are usually unaffected.
Obviously you know the dog better than us, but mixing with that number of dogs in one go at doggy day care would be a bit much for him. Just as a side note do they take dogs who run up to others and bark at them ?


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

I will reply to this when I get back from PAH. Too difficult on the iPhone


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

L4L Is it not possible that the fact that dogs are forced into interaction with other dogs from a young age and that:



> moreover, dog-parks & dog-daycares are extremely common there,


this could be the reason that dogs in these areas have fewer problems. It could be down to the socialisation rather than the desexing?

I've read a number of times that nervous male dogs lacking in good doggy socialisation may become even more nervous if they are neutered. That it is best to work to improve their confidence first and that neutering will not make them less nervous aggressive, but may actually have the opposite effect.

Not that they shouldn't be neutered at all, but that if possible it's better to get their confidence levels up before neutering them.

If the male dogs in North-east USA are socialised from a very young age as their owners have no choice, and are already confident, well adjusted dogs when they are neutered, they should be fine, if what I've read is true, but if a dog is nervous aggressive and not well adjusted, neutering may make him worse and his problems should be addressed before neutering. 

I have no idea personally which theory is the most accurate, but what the OP posted could suggest that her dog was already a little nervous aggressive, then became worse after neutering. Of course, it makes no difference, she can't have his bits sewn back on, so advice and suggestions will have to deal with how he is now.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> It's [common] for dogs who are fearful of other dogs to run [at] every dog they see, & often bark at them.
> Just as humans who are scared of something... react in different ways, some... shy away,
> others... rush to get [it done & over].


yes - 
the dogs who RUN TOWARD things they fear & threaten with aggro barks, or alert vigorously with alarm-barks, 
are referred to as *'active defense'* as a group; it's a common behavior pattern in terrierrrists, particularly, 
leading pet-owners to label their scared JRT or vocal Chi as 'aggro' when they're frightened or simply uncertain 
& a bit worried.

QUOTE, re John Campbell's book - 
Amazon.com: Behavior Problems in Dogs (9780966870503): William E. Campbell: Books 


> from the review -
> 
> _Campbell's description of '*active defense reflex*' vs 'passive defense reflex' dogs made all the difference
> in my understanding of Shasta's behavior... _


this book has SEARCH INSIDE capability - i urge anyone to sample it. It's excellent.


Jenny Olley said:


> Obviously you know the dog better than [we do], but mixing with that number of dogs [simultaneously]
> at dog-daycare would be a bit much for him.
> 
> ...as a side note, do they take dogs who run up to others & bark at them?


good question; well-run dog-daycares here would not accept him, as he'd fail the assessment. 

the places that WOULD accept him, are precisely the places that i'd strongly recommend against - 
they do not supervise, or do so casually & infrequently, or punish dogs inappropriately [using anti-bark 
collars on dogs without even asking the owners, etc]. He would only get worse under such poor care.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

When i say about sending him to day care it is run by a trainer whom i know, the point is that she will work with his issues while he is there, with the small classes that she has which is USUALLY less than 10 i can't see that being an issue he will have his own kennel that he will go in while she isn't working with him, so hes not going to be running around barking at the other dogs 

I did not think that my dog was nervous before he was neutered as like i've said i could have him with and around other dogs no problem and his body language was relaxed in these situations, but the barking was when approaching dogs say in the field, he did not bark so much when he was on lead being walked round the village instead

Anyway i'll take the advice, keep him on the lead and hopefully i'll get it sorted


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> I've read a number of times that nervous male-dogs lacking... good doggy socialisation
> may become even-more nervous if they are neutered.


where did U read it? 
who was the author, or what was the source?

if it was here on PF-uk, that's not what i'm looking for; i want to know the NAME of a reputable source, E-G,
a vet-behaviorist, a CAAB, or similarly academically-qualified person with a Bachelor's degree or the equiv 
in psych, animal-behavior, or a closely-related field. I have *never found* such a source 
who made this statement; only pet-owners or trainers with non-academic backgrounds have said this.

as i've said many times before, & probably will say many times in the future:

*in over 30-years in dogs, i'd never heard that from anyone, anywhere, before i joined PF-uk*; 
to speak very frankly, i regard it as neither more nor less than a modern urban fairy-tale.

i have no idea who began it, but both IME & IMO, there is no evidence to support it whatsoever. 
we have had a number of dogs HERE, in the mid-Atlantic states, where desex-ratios are much lower, 
who were severely undersocialized & even feral strays, dumped in rural areas, who were terrified 
of other dogs, vehicles at any distance, all humans, etc; ALL OF THEM were desexed immediately, 
even before B-Mod began, & they did not 'get worse', as this myth would have predicted.

they were taken on as project-pets by rescues, & placed with experienced fosters, sometimes as solo-dogs 
because of their extreme fears of other dogs, & they improved - they did NOT regress further.

IME this is sheer fantasy, & if i could track down the original author, i would tell them that they did 
a massive & singular *dis-service* to dogs & their families, by disseminating this notion. :nonod:


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

From

Neutering Male Dogs | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors



> Sometimes owners are reluctant to neuter their dog because they know someone whose dog was castrated but its behaviour did not improve. Sadly there are occasions when this occurs, normally because the operation was not appropriate in the circumstances. For example, an owner may be led to believe that castration may stop the dog being aggressive to other people and dogs, but they will be disappointed if the aggression is motivated by fear, which is not a testosterone (male hormone) related problem. Accurate diagnosis is therefore essential to determine whether castration is appropriate.


Which would suggest that castration isn't always appropriate.

More at:

AR Extremist Myth: Neutering Stops Aggression | Pet Defense



> IN fact in October 2005, Dr. Serpell related that neutered males of all breeds showed increased aggression, were less trainable, more fearfulespecially social fears, had increased body sensitivity and increased excitability


 http://www.acc-d.org/2006 Symposium Docs/Duffy2.pdf

Any use?

Could all be rubbish for all I know.  My vet doesn't advocate early neutering (in our case spaying) unless absolutely essential either though.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

It is also taught on the coape diploma course, or it was when my OH and I did it that castrating a nervous/fearful male can make the behaviour worse. 

On a purely personal note, I am frequently told by clients that a previously nervous dog, who was castrated often on vet recommendation (or the bloke down the pub), has since exhibited aggressive and more fearful behaviour.

Of course we can never be sure of the reason, we don't know what would have happened had the dog remained entire.

Op I would certainly seek some help for the little chap if you can.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Jenny Olley said:


> It is also taught on the coape diploma course, or it was when my OH and I did it that castrating a nervous/fearful male can make the behaviour worse.
> 
> On a purely personal note, I am frequently told by clients that a previously nervous dog, who was castrated often on vet recommendation (or the bloke down the pub), has since exhibited aggressive and more fearful behaviour.
> 
> ...


Will do, I will speak to the trainer hopefully some time this week then she will help me sort out a behaviourist too


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Nataliee said:


> Will do, I will speak to the trainer hopefully some time this week then she will help me sort out a behaviourist too


Thats good he would thank you for it if he could, they look lovely dogs.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

in the interest of simplicity, i will copy this post in toto: 
Y2SPAY - Why Neuter Your Male Dog?



> *Bold added - *
> 
> Why Neuter Your Male Dog?
> By Wendy Brooks, DVM
> ...


there are, converse to the previous statement, plenty of studies that support the reduction of aggro 
in neutered-males, particularly as the MOST-LIKELY dogs to bite, statistically speaking, are: 
- intact males 
- 2-years age or older 
- live away from the family: 
they spend most of their time in the yard / garden, in a pen or kennel, or tethered outdoors.

lack of socialization & training is a factor, but intact & male is the number 1 factor in dog-bites.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

You asked me:



> i want to know the NAME of a reputable source, E-G,
> a vet-behaviorist, a CAAB, or similarly academically-qualified person with a Bachelor's degree or the equiv
> in psych, animal-behavior, or a closely-related field.


You quote a 'Wendy Brooks, DVM'? Who is she? I can only find a general vet in a google search.



> there are, converse to the previous statement, plenty of studies that support the reduction of aggro


What studies? You can't challenge my post and then copy/paste some waffle by a general vet to back up your position. That's not fair. :thumbdown:

I posted actual studies undertaken by the type of qualified people you asked me for. Not Petforum members or untrained folk.

I want the NAME of a reputable source, eg etc, etc. A basic vet's opinion isn't good enough. 

And what about Jenny's post?



> It is also taught on the coape diploma course


Dogs tied up outside, living away from the family are quite likely to be either neglected dogs or guard dogs and also quite likely to be entire males too I expect. I read that the dogs most likely to bite are labradors, male or female, neutered or not. Who has done an extensive study of yard dogs, or labradors, or even the majority of dogs, to be able to say that, I don't know.

You might find that the most likely to bite are actually neutered female chihuahuas, but no-one feels the need to report it, or go to the doctor or hospital about it, so it's the hidden secret of the dog world. :001_cool:


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Okay I would reply but everything I had wanted to say has since been said lol!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

a link to a *Google Scholar* search for "aggression in intact male dogs"

aggression in intact male dogs - Google Scholar

page 1:



> *Demographic and aggressive characteristics of dogs in a general veterinary caseload*
> NC Guy, UA Luescher, SE Dohoo - Applied Animal , 2001 - Elsevier
> ... In dogs of at least 1 year of age, gender and reproductive status were significantly associated
> with aggression. In a comparison with intact female dogs, the odds ratios for a report of growling
> ...


i have done the research BEFORE on PF-uk, but the search-function is frnkly useless & sucks; 
all i get are "no results". Feel free to try it Urself, in advanced search with my user-name - 
nothing is found, so i will not bother to repeat the effort to re-create it.

anyone who wants to read the multiple pages of articles from various peer-reviewed journals has plenty 
of choice in the Scholar-search above. :yesnod: Cheers, 
- terry


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Mongolian gerbil? 

A quick scan through the links doesn't seem to come up with anything relating to fear aggression and castration.  

A couple of the articles seem in favour of leaving the male dogs entire, with a couple of them suggesting that neutered dogs of both sexes are worse than entire dogs in some situations, and that an early neutered dog displays the same (undesirable) behaviours as a young entire dog. 

Ah well, it's late and I have a girlie dog anyway, so the only decision I have to make is when to not whether to.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elles said:


> A quick scan through the links doesn't seem to come up with anything relating
> to fear aggression & castration.


 - i did not SPECIFY 'Fear-Aggro' in my search,  only Aggression.

- according to a survey of veterinary-behaviorists [by the AVMA or AVSAB], *85% of aggression cases* 
are rooted in fear; ergo, 'fear-aggro' is a reflexive phrase, by & large, since only *15% of all aggro* 
has causes / root-emotions *other than fear.* That would make 'fear-aggro' similar to 'pair of twins', 
unless we speak of a total of 4 individuals: a needless, indeed superfluous, modifier.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

leashedForLife said:


> a link to a *Google Scholar* search for "aggression in intact male dogs"
> 
> aggression in intact male dogs - Google Scholar
> 
> ...


I've had a brief read through the first five, I have not purchased and read the full results of the surveys conducted with vet clients dogs.

The first I have read and reread, and my understanding of the results is that its male neutered dogs that bite most often.

I read the next 4 didn't say which were more aggressive entire or castrates, in fact the last one suggests getting a bitch, then goes on to say but you can not tell, or words to that effect. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place.

Nothing as yet to alter my opinion that castrating worried/fearful dogs can make the problems worse

Sorry to highjack your thread Nataliee, please let us know how you get on with the little fella.


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Bit of an update
Starting taking Jake along to dog training, first day he did well walked into the room with the dogs already in there didn't bark had a quick sniff of a dog on the way to our seat and then was too focused on me and what he had to do to get treats to care about the other dogs. 
A few times when he didn't have my attention he would sit and watch the other dogs, if they made quick movements or made any noise it set him off barking and he would then attempt to run up to them (he was on lead though) So everytime i thought he was about to react i got his attention and then rewarded him with a treat, if he started barking before i got his attention then he didn't get rewarded.
Then we took him outside to meet a dog (small male and in tact) he barked at it at first and had a bit of a growl but as we stood chatting for a while he just ignored the dog and wasn't bothered by it being right next to him.

Then the next week we took him outside to meet another dog (large bitch this time) he had a bark when he saw her approaching but soon stopped, had a sniff of each other then he just sat next to her while i was talking, but he didn't seem to like it when she approached me and had a little growl and then backed off.
Then i sat making a fuss of a very cute pup, Jake kept sniffing it and was ok for a few mins then suddenly started growling.
Then when we went to the vets he went mad barking at a dog that came in, as we left i knew the dog was outside so i had to pick Jake up (i know not the best thing to do but there wasn't enough room to get him at a safe distance) he watched it for a bit and i could feel his body shaking while he was trying to growl but then he stopped.
Then we went to the pet shop and saw a dog in there that he went mad at from a distance, once he had stopped i asked the owner if i could take him over for a quick hello, so took him over they had a quick sniff then i took him away before he reacted again. He seems to have a pattern- bark, meet dog be nice then after a few mins suddenly growl at it)
Have been letting him have a quick sniff with a few dogs but trying to get him away before he reacts, sometimes he will decide to react as i'm walking him away
In all these meetings with other dogs hes had i have not seen him attempt to bite any, so maybe my mum was over reacting i don't know but i'm pleased that hes not AS bad as she led me to think although its obvious he does still have issues that need to be worked on
I have had his KC done so he could go into day care for just a few hours a week but not so sure about it ATM as there is a rather large dog there that is being quite boisterious with small dogs and i wouldn't want to risk it for either of their sakes 
I don't know many people with dogs that i could take him out with to get used to so i'm just trying to take him to places where i know there will be dogs on lead such as pet shops or training classes. The only people that walk their dogs in the on lead park near us are also dogs with issues or the occasional idiot that thinks because its dark out nobody else will be walking their dogs so they go and let their aggressive dogs have a run about off leash in the park :mad2:


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