# Are dogs stubborn?



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Interesting views on this on a group which lead to people stomping off and leaving the group! So do you think a dog not doing something , even when you say it "knows" what you want is just a dog being stubborn, so for example people say Rottweilers are stubborn, so if I asked Cian to get off the sofa and sometimes he did and other times I had to take his collar and remove him is he being stubborn?


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I don't believe so personally.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Ask any Briard owner and they will say YES


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I believe "stubborn" dogs are just lacking the relevant motivation to do what they're being asked to do  If that's what counts as stubborn then so be it. 

And then of course there are those "stubborn" dogs who don't actually have a clue what is being asked of them so are unable to comply anyway.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Interesting views on this on a group which lead to people stomping off and leaving the group! So do you think a dog not doing something , even when you say it "knows" what you want is just a dog being stubborn, so for example people say Rottweilers are stubborn, so if I asked Cian to get off the sofa and sometimes he did and other times I had to take his collar and remove him is he being stubborn?


WHat purpose does stubborness serve in a dog?

I know lots of dogs which are very tenacious which makes them good workers.

People will blame the dog for their own inadequacies.

Dogs are obedient to the laws of learning and the fact that a dog does not do something or only does it now and then is because you have inadvertently reinforced the dog for NOT doing what you want.

It is really very simple.

Humans are crap at being relentlessly consistent.

Dogs are brilliant at being relentlessly opportunistic.

Thorndikes law of effect rules.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

FYI just using Cian as an example he doesn't wear a collar lol


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Although I appreciate it is hard, you cannot put human emotions on a dog.

I feel quite a lot that my dog is stubborn but when rational believe it is just his way of getting around the rules...the huffing does make me laugh though :001_smile:


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## agrumpycow (Dec 14, 2010)

We always used to use the word stubborn for Toby, when he would refuse to eat for days - ask for food yet just look at it and walk away - only to scoff a plate of chicken when we felt he's starved himself for too long and gave in.
Whether that's stubbornness or knowing how to work us


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

agrumpycow said:


> We always used to use the word stubborn for Toby, when he would refuse to eat for days - ask for food yet just look at it and walk away - only to scoff a plate of chicken when we felt he's starved himself for too long and gave in.
> Whether that's stubbornness or knowing how to work us


Think you know the answer to that really


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## agrumpycow (Dec 14, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Think you know the answer to that really


I'm a push-over and he knew it


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I would say no, as it's putting humanisms onto dogs, we may interpret their behaviour as stubborn but it's not it's just them doing what they want/not understanding what is expected of them by us.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It all depends on whether you are going to use common words and apply them to dog behaviour - which personally I do. So yes, dogs can be stubborn in a dog way. They are not thinking it out in a way a human might but it has the same end effect.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Blitz said:


> It all depends on whether you are going to use common words and apply them to dog behaviour - which personally I do. So yes, dogs can be stubborn in a dog way. They are not thinking it out in a way a human might but it has the same end effect.


This ^^

An example of what we might call human stubbornness would be, say, refusing to do the washing up because watching TV is the preferred option. For dogs an example would be carrying on playing with another dog rather than recalling to the owner because playing with the other dog is more interesting than boring old mum.

I don't think it's wrong to use a human word for a dog's behaviour, as long as you know _why_ your dog is being stubborn. In the example above the other dog is more interesting than the owner, so the owner needs to find a way for them to be more interesting/more rewarding than the other dog.

Nooka can be stubborn. At agility she knows what to do, and can do it, but she'd rather run off and play with the other dogs. I have to use REALLY high value rewards to keep her focussed on the agility and not the dogs, and even then it is hit and miss.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The problem is, when people start labelling the dog as stubborn they also seem to start seeing it as the dog challenging them. It's not a lack of motivation to do as they're asking, it's the dog deliberately defying them in order to do as it pleases. And from there it seems to be a very slippery slope 

And I honestly think that in many, many cases it's not a case of the dog being stubborn at all, it's a case of the behaviour not having been fully trained and proofed and the dog being set up to fail, not necessarily deliberately but set up to fail nevertheless.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> The problem is, when people start labelling the dog as stubborn they also seem to start seeing it as the dog challenging them. It's not a lack of motivation to do as they're asking, it's the dog deliberately defying them in order to do as it pleases. And from there it seems to be a very slippery slope
> 
> And I honestly think that in many, many cases it's not a case of the dog being stubborn at all, it's a case of the behaviour not having been fully trained and proofed and the dog being set up to fail, not necessarily deliberately but set up to fail nevertheless.


This is it for me calling a dog stubborn means it is doing something to spite you, it knows it is doing something it shouldn't purely because it choses not to do what you want, not that you haven't found something more motivating, the label to me allows people to lay the blame with the dog rather than themselves.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> The problem is, when people start labelling the dog as stubborn they also seem to start seeing it as the dog challenging them. It's not a lack of motivation to do as they're asking, it's the dog deliberately defying them in order to do as it pleases. And from there it seems to be a very slippery slope
> 
> And I honestly think that in many, many cases it's not a case of the dog being stubborn at all, it's a case of the behaviour not having been fully trained and proofed and the dog being set up to fail, not necessarily deliberately but set up to fail nevertheless.


Dogs do challenge their owners though. A dog will have that last sniff while giving their owner a crafty look and then when the owner insists then they will come. No different from a young child who stretches the boundaries by 'stubbornly' refusing to obey till they are ready to.
Often if an experienced stranger gives the dog the same command it will obey instantly.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

I looked up the definition and was amused to find 'dogged' in there. 



> having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so.


So no, I don't think dogs can be stubborn if it's to do with changing attitudes. I'm not sure dogs have attitudes or positions on anything.  It's that 'always right' attitude. My mum's got that. Of course I haven't. 

I think dogs learn what they can and can't get away with - a few of the dogs we walk are described as 'stubborn' because if they're walked from their house they 'refuse' to walk in any direction other the one they want. I have never encountered this behaviour in those dogs as they go where I say, not where they fancy. One of my dog walkers admitted to carrying a terrier as she was 'stubborn' and wouldn't walk the way he wanted her to. She always does for me - she knows who she can and can't influence!


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

I call Brock stubborn...but I don't think he's trying to spite me at all, I usually mean he's choosing to do something self-rewarding rather than respond to me. Or he repeats the same thing despite never actually being allowed by me to do it.

Taking the couch example, he's not allowed on the couch, he's never been allowed on the couch, but at least once a week he tries to lie on the couch, he'll get off fine when I say off and I get a look that pretty much says, well you can't blame me for trying...one day you might let me. I'd say that's pretty stubborn that at nearly 2 he hasn't given up his ambition of sleeping on the couch, lol.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Dogs do challenge their owners though. A dog will have that last sniff while giving their owner a crafty look and then when the owner insists then they will come. No different from a young child who stretches the boundaries by 'stubbornly' refusing to obey till they are ready to.
> Often if an experienced stranger gives the dog the same command it will obey instantly.


That's not challenging though? It's about what is rewarding for the dog, they are not being crafty? just the reward for that extra sniff if bigger that the reward of going with their owner?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sarplaninacs are notorious for being stubborn. They know exactly what's expected of them but if they decide they don't want to do something you want them to do then nothing _*aside from a good beating*_ will change their mind.

Oscar is not without his stubborn moments either. But then he knows how to play me for best effect. :001_smile:

*Not advisable unless you're relentlessly cruel*


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I think they're clever and learn what they can get away with but a lot of the when people say oh my dog's so stubborn he won't recall etc it's because they haven't trained it right. Or whatever they're trying to get the dog to do is less rewarding that what they're doing.


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

English Setters are *notoriously* stubborn, and every single one we have had has been the same - mostly affable but selectively deaf to things they're not interested in doing.

I love Henry to bits but yes, he can be _so_ stubborn about doing commands sometimes, even when it's an action he's done a hundred times before. He knows exactly what he is doing, and he's a clever enough dog to understand the command and decide it's not something he's interested in going through with. I can see it going across his face and those cogs are absolutely whirring in there, when he's understanding the command, knowing what is being asked of him and deciding that it's not something he's interested in carrying out at the present time.

So yes, dogs can absolutely be stubborn, and Setters are a prime example of it.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Pezant said:


> English Setters are *notoriously* stubborn, and every single one we have had has been the same - mostly affable but selectively deaf to things they're not interested in doing.
> 
> I love Henry to bits but yes, he can be _so_ stubborn about doing commands sometimes, even when it's an action he's done a hundred times before. He knows exactly what he is doing, and he's a clever enough dog to understand the command and decide it's not something he's interested in going through with. I can see it going across his face and those cogs are absolutely whirring in there, when he's understanding the command, knowing what is being asked of him and deciding that it's not something he's interested in carrying out at the present time.
> 
> So yes, dogs can absolutely be stubborn, and Setters are a prime example of it.


I have to agree with this! 

It's the look they get in their eyes! I also believe they have a sense of humour!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Pezant said:


> English Setters are *notoriously* stubborn, and every single one we have had has been the same - mostly affable but selectively deaf to things they're not interested in doing.
> 
> I love Henry to bits but yes, he can be _so_ stubborn about doing commands sometimes, even when it's an action he's done a hundred times before. He knows exactly what he is doing, and he's a clever enough dog to understand the command and decide it's not something he's interested in going through with. I can see it going across his face and those cogs are absolutely whirring in there, when he's understanding the command, knowing what is being asked of him and deciding that it's not something he's interested in carrying out at the present time.
> 
> So yes, dogs can absolutely be stubborn, and Setters are a prime example of it.


But to me that's not stubborn, that's simple a dog who is not motivated at that time to do something, he's not chosing not to do it, it's not a thought pattern of "today just because I can I'm not doing it just no" as you say he not doing it because there is no motivation for him to do it! If you go to work ever day and just get a "thank you" when you bring in sales over time you will think "meh what is the point all I'll get is a thank you" you will stop selling, you might go through the process one day because you really have nothing better to do but if they give you free access to the internet all day, will you sell or go on the internet? Is you not selling you being stubborn or just not motivated? Imagine every sale you got £1000 you going to sell or surf? Over time that £1000 becomes the norm get used to it, no real motivation for selling again now so sales start to dry up you are bored don't want to do it now and stop selling and start surfing again, you can keep being told to sell they know you can, but you are not longer driven to do it, are you being stubborn not selling or just no longer motivated?


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Meezey said:


> But to me that's not stubborn, that's simple a dog who is not motivated at that time to do something, he's not chosing not to do it, it's not a thought pattern of "today just because I can I'm not doing it just no"


Oh I use motivation - I use cheese, I use toys, I use praise and happy excited voices, but if Henry doesn't want to do something, he _will not do it_ until HE wants to. He is absolutely choosing not to do it, and I have seen it over and over again in my breed. Every single setter owner will tell you their dog is stubborn - if it's something they are not interested in, you cannot get them to change their minds until THEY decide to do it of their own accord.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Dogs do challenge their owners though. A dog will have that last sniff while giving their owner a crafty look and then when the owner insists then they will come. No different from a young child who stretches the boundaries by 'stubbornly' refusing to obey till they are ready to.
> Often if an experienced stranger gives the dog the same command it will obey instantly.


This reminds me of last week, the boy dog barked and it echoed so he immediately barked back, He did it a couple of times so I told him `Be quiet you won`t be able to have the last word` He gave the tiniest little huffy bark then looked at me as though to say `I can`


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

You know what? I really don't know. I mean, I think it's a good excuse more often than not for owners who just can't train their dogs. I also find it interesting just how many people claim their breed is "known to be stubborn". It appears that most breeds tend to be labelled this way and in some cases I feel, like I said, this gives some owners an automatic excuse..."but he's a so and so and meant to be stubborn"...you know what I mean?

That said my Ty could be described this way. Very much does things on his own terms and is hard to motivate and keep motivated regardless of reward offered. But it just depends on how you view it I guess, hence why I really don't know whether you can genuinely say a dog is stubborn or not.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

3dogs2cats said:


> This reminds me of last week, the boy dog barked and it echoed so he immediately barked back, He did it a couple of times so I told him `Be quiet you won`t be able to have the last word` He gave the tiniest little huffy bark then looked at me as though to say `I can`


Ha! This is my Missy all over  She is incredibly noisy in general and most things set her off. She barks, you ask her to stop, she looks at you direct in the face and continues to grumble under her breath until SHE is ready to call it quits!


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Stubborn - having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so.

No, because dogs don't have an attitude or position to hold onto. Their minds don't work like that. They can be comfortable and not want to move because they'd rather not do what you want because there's nothing in it for them. That's not stubbornness that's independence


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## Guest (Jun 18, 2014)

Whenever I see a dog in person labeled stubborn its usually a case of the handler simply not knowing how to motivate that individual dog. Other times the dog is completely overstimulated by the environment or simply conflicted or confused. 

There are a lot of reasons why a dog will refuse a known cue, none of which have absolutely nothing to do with the dog challenging the owner or trying to get one up on the owner. 

I think a lot of those situations we see as the dog challenging are just one interpretation of the dogs behavior. There are many other ways to read a situation like a dog taking one more sniff before recalling - sniffing is often a conflicted behavior, or maybe it was a simple case of I want to come to mom but this SMELL! 
At a seminar last summer the presenter showed us several videos of conflicted behavior in dogs, and it does look a lot like a middle finger to the owner, but its simply the dog struggling with multiple motivators and figuring out which one to respond to.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

If this is from the group I think it is, I'm rather disappointed the person left seeing as they got a dog they were afraid of and the methods they are heading isn't going to me good.

Honestly Stubborn sounds harsh but I do kind of believe dogs will refuse to do things because they don't want to. Maya had no interest in tricks or pulling, I called her stubborn headed but she was just a smart dog who knew what she did and didn't liked.


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## dorrit (Sep 13, 2011)

Stubborn.... hmmm

I suppose some dogs have a stronger desire to do something...than the owner realises..

Benny is a beagle and yes sometimes when he refuses to walk because he has smelt something I will say walk on you stubborn beestie....

But I know full well that he is only doing what he has been bred to do..

Max who was a Bouvier x St Bernard would lie down if he didnt want to move when told to...His weight made it impossible for us to move him without doing ourselves serious back injuries.. Stubborn no, he had simply learned that to get his own way he just had to lie down..

I think its a word that we use for the lack of a better quick descriptive word to use for these patterns of behaviour..
No need to get all stroppy about it though :001_smile:


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Stubborn is the interpretation we give to their behaviour. 

Setters were bred to be independent thinkers. To go off and quarter the ground flushing game, without constant direction. Most setter owners will say that if you ask a setter to do something, they stop as if they're thinking 'what's in it for me?' Obviously they're not - but that's how it seems. 

When they started breeding show ISs and split from the working strain they tried to breed the less intelligent dogs purely to make them more biddable for the pet market. And so they wouldn't be s independent. 

So I don't agree its laziness on the part of the owner. Most people fall in love with setters BECAUSE of their 'stubbornness'. It makes life interesting!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As Dr Susan Friedman said in her seminar a couple of months ago, in a necropsy you would not be able to locate the organ of stubborness in a dog.

Still sticking labels on things (whatever the species) appears to suit a lot of people, it saves them having to think outside the box.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I have one who is. Genuinely. He is pretty unusual though IME. Normally they don`t respond because the reward isn`t good enough. But this one goes into `shan`t` mode. The only answer is either leaving him alone till he gets over himself or me losing it and swearing loudly. (The latter doesn`t actually work that much - it just makes me feel better. )


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Pezant said:


> Oh I use motivation - I use cheese, I use toys, I use praise and happy excited voices, but if Henry doesn't want to do something, he _will not do it_ until HE wants to. He is absolutely choosing not to do it, and I have seen it over and over again in my breed. Every single setter owner will tell you their dog is stubborn - if it's something they are not interested in, you cannot get them to change their minds until THEY decide to do it of their own accord.


But that's not being stubborn that's a dog doing something more rewarding for them, over what you want them to do? Happy excited voices and cheese are at that time not rewarding enough, to him sitting in a car or lying under a table is more rewarding 

So I love walking and feel great after getting out with my boys, but some nights I don't want to go, I'd rather lie on the sofa and watch crap TV, OH might offer me an expresso at the end of the walk ( love espresso) and a ice cream, but really the sofa and crap TV are so good just don't want to that's not being stubborn just at that time it doesn't work for me, same thing happens in dogs and people label it as "stubborn".

It's surprising from this thread how many breeds are considered " stubborn "


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

nah - stubborn is a dog with 2 plastic bottles, 2 balls and an empty sandwich box in his gob on a hot day refusing to put them down so he can have a drink - even when you take all the other dogs to a distance....


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> As Dr Susan Friedman said in her seminar a couple of months ago, in a necropsy you would not be able to locate the organ of stubborness in a dog.
> 
> Still sticking labels on things (whatever the species) appears to suit a lot of people, it saves them having to think outside the box.


If I read your post right, I think you are saying if we label something we give up and don't do anything about it. In my case, and I believe the case of many setter owners, I do the exact opposite.

Because Bess exhibits behaviour that I call 'stubborn', I do have to think outside the box to get around it, and get the behaviour that I want. It can be challenging, it can be funny - it can be darn annoying, but anything but boring!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> nah - stubborn is a dog with 2 plastic bottles, 2 balls and an empty sandwich box in his gob on a hot day refusing to put them down so he can have a drink - even when you take all the other dogs to a distance....


Again I just see that as a dog who values certain thing over another, the recourse in his gob were more important than the water?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I think labelling a dog stubborn is often the easy way out personally. Blame the dog for being stubborn rather than admit you don't know how to motivate it to do what you're asking. Or that the dog has an issue with what is being asked of it that actually has nothing to do with it being stubborn, perhaps it's in pain or too anxious about something to comply.


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

See, I would argue that if the dog is refusing to do something, for whatever reason, that *is* stubbornness. If you want a toddler to give you a toy and they refuse, isn't that them being stubborn? Even if you're offering them a nicer toy? I'd argue that if Henry is out in the garden, I want him to come inside and he refuses to come to the lure of cheese or liver or whatever treat, then that's also him being stubborn. 

I had a battle with him the other day when I wanted him to lie down from a sit, and he flat out refused. Even though it's a movement he's done a thousand times, it was the only command I was giving him and it was being said very clearly, with the same hand gesture I always use, he would not do it. I'll admit I didn't have bait to lure him down, but I would have thought that if he was refusing to do a clear command, then that's stubbornness. It's what I'd call repeated refusal, anyway.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Pezant said:


> S*ee, I would argue that if the dog is refusing to do something, for whatever reason, that *is* stubbornness*. If you want a toddler to give you a toy and they refuse, isn't that them being stubborn? Even if you're offering them a nicer toy? I'd argue that if Henry is out in the garden, I want him to come inside and he refuses to come to the lure of cheese or liver or whatever treat, then that's also him being stubborn.
> 
> I had a battle with him the other day when I wanted him to lie down from a sit, and he flat out refused. Even though it's a movement he's done a thousand times, it was the only command I was giving him and it was being said very clearly, with the same hand gesture I always use, he would not do it. I'll admit I didn't have bait to lure him down, but I would have thought that if he was refusing to do a clear command, then that's stubbornness. It's what I'd call repeated refusal, anyway.


so if the reasons for not doing were because they were tired or feeling unwell, the move was uncomfortable or they were scared would you classify that as stubborn?

I've been in the middle of a training session in a quiet corner of the park and suddenly Tink misses a cue, she is distracted and her focus is else where,. I look around and see a dog has appeared through the hedge a way behind me and she's just assessing whether she is safe.... I don't call that stubborn, given her past experiences it seems perfectly sensible.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> As Dr Susan Friedman said in her seminar a couple of months ago, in a necropsy you would not be able to locate the organ of stubborness in a dog.
> 
> Still sticking labels on things (whatever the species) appears to suit a lot of people, it saves them having to think outside the box.


I do not like labels but it is not a label to call child/person/dog/horse stubborn. It is a description of its current behaviour. If you want to get over the 'stubborness' surely you do it in exactly the same way as you have labelled the behaviour with a different name or bypassed giving it a name in your mind and just worked on the problem.

Your quote from Susan Friedman (whoever she is) is ridiculous. There are no 'organs' for any temperament descriptions.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> Stubborn is the interpretation we give to their behaviour.
> 
> *So I don't agree its laziness on the part of the owner. Most people fall in love with setters BECAUSE of their 'stubbornness'. It makes life interesting! *


 I believe this to be true of Dalmatian owners too.I think dallies must have their own trade union some where." A fair days wage for a fair days work" !! My dal will do anything requested as long as he gets some thing out of it, when he wants too


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I do not like labels but it is not a label to call child/person/dog/horse stubborn. It is a description of its current behaviour. If you want to get over the 'stubborness' surely you do it in exactly the same way as you have labelled the behaviour with a different name or bypassed giving it a name in your mind and just worked on the problem.
> 
> Your quote from Susan Friedman (whoever she is) is ridiculous. There are no 'organs' for any temperament descriptions.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm so where does serotonin come from?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm so where does serotonin come from?


oh sorry, I forgot that it can be analysed in humans and will appear with a 'happy', 'stubborn' , 'aggressive', etc label


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> The problem is, when people start labelling the dog as stubborn they also seem to start seeing it as the *dog challenging them*. It's not a lack of motivation to do as they're asking, it's the dog deliberately defying them in order to do as it pleases. And from there it seems to be a very slippery slope
> 
> And I honestly think that in many, many cases it's not a case of the dog being stubborn at all, it's a case of the behaviour not having been fully trained and proofed and the dog being set up to fail, not necessarily deliberately but set up to fail nevertheless.


Not in our case. We call Muddy stubborn when he won't get off the sofa to go into the garden at night. He knows full well that he has to, it has happened every single day of his 9 year life, he's also done a wee every night for his 9 year life, so he needs to go.
It's part of his character and we love him for it and many other character traits.
The word stubborn doesn't have to come from a bad place


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> oh sorry, I forgot that it can be analysed in humans and will appear with a 'happy', 'stubborn' , 'aggressive', etc label


And in dogs??


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Surely stubborn is just a word to describe a behaviour, but not an explanation for the actual reasons behind behaviour?

Ie, the dog is *being* stubborn for whatever reason, rather than the dog *is* stubborn.

Former is merely describing an action rather than a state of mind.

I think.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm so where does serotonin come from?


Serotonin is a neural transmitter produced by synapses in the brain! (see, I do remember something from the degree I took xxxx years ago!) 

I don't think anyone has - or could - examine the way a dog's brain works in the same way that we do a humans. Much of our knowledge of the human brain is done during brain surgery, when patients are asked about sensations when various parts of the brain are stimulated. A dog could never verbalise what's happening.

I think what we forget is the dog's ability to learn - they are not robots. They obviously do not analyse events in the same way that we do, but they do learn cause and consequence. Sometimes it's as a result of training and they offer a behaviour that we want. Sometimes, unfortunately, they learn a behaviour which we don't want them to do.

Some dogs are extremely willing to please their owners. I had a Cocker Spaniel who always tried to please and do what was asked - to the extent of getting extremely stressed out if the Great Dane he lived with wasn't responding to a command.

Bess doesn't have the same desire to please me. So we have to work at things in different ways.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

I suppose you could say that dogs behaviour could be considered stubborn when we look at it from a humans point of view (which we tend to because we are human lol), in other words anthropomorphise the behaviour.

In reality I think that we are giving them powers of cognition that that dont actually have.

The basics thought process in a dogs mind is whats in it for me (thats nature). And only through training and domestication have we managed to alter this (or work with it to our own ends). Different breeds and different personalities require different approaches to training but whether that makes one breed more stubborn than another, I dont know. I tend not to view it as such but I can see the point of view. 

However, I love a bit of anthropomorphism. I have just called all my dogs in from the garden as I am expecting a visitor. Cue lots of paws trotting in, even though they would rather stay meandering around in the garden. Except one. My 11 year old yellow lab. Word perfect in all training except leaving the warm sunny spot on the patio to come inside when called. She just raised her head and looked at me. 

I love it.

J


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> Serotonin is a neural transmitter produced by synapses in the brain! (see, I do remember something from the degree I took xxxx years ago!)
> 
> I don't think anyone has - or could - examine the way a dog's brain works in the same way that we do a humans. Much of our knowledge of the human brain is done during brain surgery, when patients are asked about sensations when various parts of the brain are stimulated. A dog could never verbalise what's happening.
> 
> ...


It's why they give dogs anti depressants  While not technically an organ more cells  it does effect behaviour.

Training a Rottweiler is very different to training a GSD, I " could" call Rottweilers stubborn, but I know it's not the case, it's the fact they are motivated by different things than GSD's  I could not change my training, and just call all my Rottweiler boys stubborn as an excuse for why I can't train them as easy as GSD's using the same methods...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I do not like labels but it is not a label to call child/person/dog/horse stubborn. It is a description of its current behaviour. If you want to get over the 'stubborness' surely you do it in exactly the same way as you have labelled the behaviour with a different name or bypassed giving it a name in your mind and just worked on the problem.
> 
> Your quote from Susan Friedman (whoever she is) is ridiculous. There are no 'organs' for any temperament descriptions.


I know my quote is ridiculous, and it does nto surprise me that you have no concept of who she is. 

An entity is not X, it may be exhibiting observable behaviour, eg refusing to do x

We then apply Thorndikes theory of effect to determine why they are refusing to do it, and then, if we have a couple of brain cells and understand that consequences drive behaviour, we can then ensure compliance.

Dog training is very simple, labels just muddy the waters.

But I fully understand why you are unable to comprehend these concepts.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> Serotonin is a neural transmitter produced by synapses in the brain! (see, I do remember something from the degree I took xxxx years ago!)
> 
> I don't think anyone has - or could - examine the way a dog's brain works in the same way that we do a humans. Much of our knowledge of the human brain is done during brain surgery, when patients are asked about sensations when various parts of the brain are stimulated. A dog could never verbalise what's happening.
> 
> ...


I would suggest you read Gregory Berns How Dogs love us.

You will see that we can study the way the brain works in a dog by using FMRI. 

I do not believe that dogs do things to please us, they do what is in their best interests.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Well, like I said, I don't think stubbornness is breed specific, all dogs by the looks of it have the capability to act stubborn. 

My Tyler is a Lurchery type, and I could really relate to the behaviours described by Pezant regarding her Henry. But while Ty could be considered stubborn too, he is also incredibly lazy and I think that plays a big part in how he acts at the time. It's certainly been interesting training him. He's not motivated by much at all...even treats sometimes. You could throw a party for him for doing something right and he will continue to look woeful. 


Oh, and my example of Missy's barking I gave...that certainly could be described as stubborn behaviour. But in every other sense I've found her to be anything but stubborn, and for a terrier that's impressive, right? :biggrin5:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

All dogs are motivated by something, but most people do not seek to determine what it (or those) are.  

They stop at food or toys.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> All dogs are motivated by something, but most people do not seek to determine what it (or those) are.
> 
> They stop at food or toys.


True. I do think Ty is perhaps more motivated by environmental rewards...he very much follows his nose. However I haven't tried any premack training, but have heard lots of positives about it. I think I've become very complacent and comfortable with what he does know. He knows the basics that makes him enjoyable to live with. Just wish for more efficiency and compliance sometimes.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2014)

I guess I dont like calling a dog stubborn for the same reason I balk at calling a dog aggressive. Behavior is aggressive, dogs are dogs. 
Though with stubborn, I would go a step further and challenge us to *define* stubborn behavior. What purpose would it serve?

And like Sarah said, calling a dog or a behavior stubborn, puts the onus on the dog. It becomes an issue with the dog him/her self, not an issue with the handler, not an issue with the motivators, not an issue with the training techniques....


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

There have been experiments with human children where teachers have been told that half the class were dimwits and the other half brainy.

Not true

But guess what?

Yep, it became a self fulfilling prophecy.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> There have been experiments with human children where teachers have been told that half the class were dimwits and the other half brainy.
> 
> Not true
> 
> ...


Yes, and the very famous one where the teacher separated the students by eye color. Labels most definitely affect behavior and relationship outcomes.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> I believe "stubborn" dogs are just lacking the relevant motivation to do what they're being asked to do  If that's what counts as stubborn then so be it.
> 
> And then of course there are those "stubborn" dogs who don't actually have a clue what is being asked of them so are unable to comply anyway.


I'll second this ^^^ rather abruptly by saying that people tend to anthropomorphize and label dogs as "stubborn" when the training they have done is naff. Blame the dog. Couldn't possibly be their skills as a trainer or their relationship with the dog that needs the work?!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> All dogs are motivated by something, but most people do not seek to determine what it (or those) are.
> 
> They stop at food or toys.


I actually had a big problem getting past this with Rupert. And now I feel pretty damn stupid for struggling with it for so long lol.

If my dog doesn't perform a known behaviour on cue I look at why rather than assume he's being stubborn about it. Has the behaviour been proofed properly? Is he distracted? Anxious? Over excited? What can I do to motivate him to want to do what I ask? Or change the situation so that he's able to do what I ask?

The problem with people just assuming the dog is being stubborn is that they so often take it as a personal affront and want to punish the dog for it. And that imo is extremely unfair to the dog. Not saying that's what anyone here does but it does seem to be extremely common for people to assume the dog is being stubborn or wilful and punish it rather than ask why the dog is not doing as they ask.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> I actually had a big problem getting past this with Rupert. And now I feel pretty damn stupid for struggling with it for so long lol.
> 
> *If my dog doesn't perform a known behaviour on cue I look at why rather than assume he's being stubborn about it. Has the behaviour been proofed properly?* Is he distracted? Anxious? Over excited? What can I do to motivate him to want to do what I ask? Or change the situation so that he's able to do what I ask?
> 
> The problem with people just assuming the dog is being stubborn is that they so often take it as a personal affront and want to punish the dog for it. And that imo is extremely unfair to the dog. Not saying that's what anyone here does but it does seem to be extremely common for people to assume the dog is being stubborn or wilful and punish it rather than ask why the dog is not doing as they ask.


To me that is just jargon, far worse than labelling. What you mean is your dog is disobeying you and you are not sure whether you have taught it properly. I am sure a dog always has its own good reason for not obeying but that is no excuse. If a dog does not come back when it is called, when it has been trained to, it does not matter what the reason is, it has disobeyed. One of the reasons might be stubborness or he might be anxious or distracted or over excited - no excuse not to do as he is told.
If you have to tell a dog to sit several times and it eventually reluctantly sits it is quite possibly being stubborn.

Why do some people want their dog training to be filled with jargon and not common sense.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Blitz said:


> To me that is just jargon, far worse than labelling. What you mean is your dog is disobeying you and you are not sure whether you have taught it properly. I am sure a dog always has its own good reason for not obeying but that is no excuse. If a dog does not come back when it is called, when it has been trained to, it does not matter what the reason is, it has disobeyed. One of the reasons might be stubborness or he might be anxious or distracted or over excited - no excuse not to do as he is told.
> If you have to tell a dog to sit several times and it eventually reluctantly sits it is quite possibly being stubborn.
> 
> *Why do some people want their dog training to be filled with jargon and not common sense.*


The bit I've highlighted, probably because they think it makes them sound really clever.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

8tansox said:


> The bit I've highlighted, probably because they think it makes them sound really clever.


Ah yes , of course.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Yup. I also think it can show a lack of understanding how to communicate with ordinary everyday people if they feel the need to use jargon to try and impress.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Blitz said:


> To me that is just jargon, far worse than labelling. What you mean is your dog is disobeying you and you are not sure whether you have taught it properly. I am sure a dog always has its own good reason for not obeying but that is no excuse. If a dog does not come back when it is called, when it has been trained to, it does not matter what the reason is, it has disobeyed. One of the reasons might be stubborness or he might be anxious or distracted or over excited - no excuse not to do as he is told.
> If you have to tell a dog to sit several times and it eventually reluctantly sits it is quite possibly being stubborn.
> 
> Why do some people want their dog training to be filled with jargon and not common sense.


I agree mostly. Like I said, I don't know whether you can genuinely say a dog is stubborn or not, but even if people describe a behaviour as stubborn that's not necessarily a bad thing and could even be thought of in an endearing manner, like, "he's a stubborn old git...but we love him", you know?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I know my quote is ridiculous, and it does nto surprise me that you have no concept of who she is.
> 
> An entity is not X, it may be exhibiting observable behaviour, eg refusing to do x
> 
> ...


Another one who enjoys pretending to be superior through the use of jargon and quoting stuff out of books.



smokeybear said:


> I would suggest you read Gregory Berns How Dogs love us.
> 
> You will see that we can study the way the brain works in a dog by using FMRI.
> 
> *I do not believe that dogs do things to please us, they do what is in their best interests.*


I would only agree with this in as much as it applies to any animal including humans. Humans are brought up to find it pleasurable to please first their parents and then their friends and their teachers. They are not born thinking 'if I do that I will please that person' . They learn that if they please someone they get a reward, whether just a smile or a cuddle or a gift. Dogs are no different, they learn that obeying makes their owner happy and is good for them so they obey if they have a mindset to please their owner. If it is more gratifying to chase a rabbit or run up to another dog then that is what they will do.

I am afraid I am not interested in reading jargon books , I prefer to use my own experience from dog owning, training and working with dogs over more than 40 years and enjoy my dogs for what they are.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Wow, that quickly descended to unnecessary rudeness didn't it? 

To me it very much does matter why my dog has not obeyed. I guess to others it doesn't matter so long as the dog does as it's told regardless.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

I think a lot of people underestimate the dog


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> Wow, that quickly descended to unnecessary rudeness didn't it?
> 
> To me it very much does matter why my dog has not obeyed. I guess to others it doesn't matter so long as the dog does as it's told regardless.


Of course it matters why, otherwise how can you work on the problem. If it is just being plain stubborn you will have a different approach to for eg a dog that gets fixated on another dog.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> I think a lot of people underestimate the dog


I think a lot of people anthropomorphism dogs then blame the dog when it doesn't do as asked? That to me show a lack of understanding of dogs and set dogs up to fail.....


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Of course it matters why, otherwise how can you work on the problem. If it is just being plain stubborn you will have a different approach to for eg a dog that gets fixated on another dog.


So explain what the different approaches are if your dog is "stubborn" to being fixated?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> So explain what the different approaches are if your dog is "stubborn" to being fixated?


Surely if a dog is fixated by something and will not do as you want he is then being stubborn?

Or, as I prefer to interpret this

The dog is paying more attention to the presence of another dog than it is to me. 

This is observable behaviour

It is not some unquantifiable unobservable quality.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2014)

Blitz said:


> Ah yes , of course.  But then they come across someone like me who thinks they sound rather retarded.


Hey, speaking of labels, calling someone retarded as an insult is really uncool :thumbdown: :thumbdown:

In the end of course the label doesn't really matter as long as the relationship is sound, as long as the partnership and mutual understanding is working for both parties. 
The problem is, so often those labeling their dogs stubborn, are also the ones struggling with all of the above. They have a dog who doesn't respond reliably, who is not motivated by the relationship, who blows the handler off. 
From where I'm standing, explaining away the behavior as stubborn doesn't seem to be working. So, when something isn't working, it's time to do something else right?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

This thread is pretty funny.

Of course certain dogs are stubborn, there's been a study lately  which shows dogs have far more capacity and range of feelings/emotions then a lot of people (some experts especially) give them credit for. All of which I'm sure a lot of us already knew anyway just by spending so much time around our dogs.

Roughs are a stubborn breed, although very biddable too. If they don't want to do something or see the importance of it they won't do it and you can't lure them into it.

That doesn't mean I blame a dog for their behaviour and I'm not setting him up to fail as there is no repercussion, but they are far more complex then many believe. Like sometimes Alfie will do something just to defy me and have this huge smile on his face while he is doing the opposite of what he's told. Or sometimes he is in one of his terror moods and runs away from being dried and I ask him to sit and he doesn't want to so he has a moan and mumbles to himself while he sits down, it's quite funny to see it really.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

My dogs aren't stubborn but they can BE stubborn at times. 

Sibes are probably the most renowned for how "stubborn" they can be however my two are extremely biddable when there is something in it for them. 

I would neither blame myself, or the dog. It's nature which you can't always over ride. Plus I didn't buy Siberian Huskies expecting them to be as well behaved as my little Cav.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Again I just see that as a dog who values certain thing over another, the recourse in his gob were more important than the water?


you say potato, I say King Edwards......
I know my dog. You don`t. So I reserve the right to describe him as I see fit.


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Well if anyone is interested here's a list of criteria you need to consider when training a cue to be really successful.

*Distance*: Just because your dog can respond to a cue directly in front of you does not mean he will "generalize" that the cue is still valid when he is ten, fifty, or two hundred yards away from you. If you want fluent responses at a distance, you must teach your dog to do so.

*Distractions:* While your dog may recall to you in your kitchen, she may not recall to you if she is off leash and spots a squirrel, deer, other dog, or even a leaf blowing in the wind. If you want your dog to respond to your cues in the middle of a construction zone, the dog park, or the pet store, you must proof for distractions!

*Duration*: Does your dog respond to a "down" cue and then pop right back up to a standing or sitting position? If you want your dog to offer an extended down until released, you must build duration for the behavior.

*Precision*: What is your vision of the ideal behavior? Proofing behaviors for precision is a fairly advanced process. Are you participating in competition obedience and getting crooked sits? To get that straight sit that you are seeking, you must concentrate on proofing for precision.

*Latency*: Have you ever cued a dog for a behavior and then waited....and waited...and waited for a behavioral response? You say "sit" and what seems like ages later, your dog's bum hits the floor? Latency is the time lag between the cue delivery and the offering/initiation of a behavioral response from the dog. If you want your dog to sit as soon as you give the cue, you need to proof for latency!

*Speed*: The criteria of speed in relation to behaviour is signified by the time lapse between when the animal starts the behaviour and when the animal completes the behaviour. Sometimes a student recalls a dog, and you see a dog walking back to them. If we need to pick up that speed, we must proof for it!

source:
Got behaviors? Want proof? | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> This thread is pretty funny.
> 
> Of course certain dogs are stubborn, there's been a study lately  which shows dogs have far more capacity and range of feelings/emotions then a lot of people (some experts especially) give them credit for. All of which I'm sure a lot of us already knew anyway just by spending so much time around our dogs.
> 
> ...


Can we have a link to the study?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I think a lot of people anthropomorphism dogs then blame the dog when it doesn't do as asked? That to me show a lack of understanding of dogs and set dogs up to fail.....


I dislike that extreme even more than those that think you can bribe any dog to do anything.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> I dislike that extreme even more than those that think you can bribe any dog to do anything.


I don't think people bribe dogs, another label, it's about understanding what works for your dog and working with that to get a behaviour you want.

Strange again how human behaviours are given to dogs
Bribe:
"dishonestly persuade (someone) to act in one's favour by a gift of money or other inducement."

So how do you bribe a dog?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I don't think people bribe dogs, another label, it's about understanding what works for your dog and working with that to get a behaviour you want.
> 
> Strange again how human behaviours are given to dogs
> Bribe:
> ...


It's the human that's bribing not the dog. 
You can also bore a dog by repetition. A dog would rarely do half the things a human expects of them so most trainers/owners are expecting of a dog what is not natural anyway


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Can we have a link to the study?


I don't know if there is a full report on it, I saw it reported on bbc news, it was a study which involved having dogs scanned I think in an MRI machine and showed that they understand emotions like humans do.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I don't know if there is a full report on it, I saw it reported on bbc news, it was a study which involved having dogs scanned I think in an MRI machine and showed that they understand emotions like humans do.


This?
BBC News - Dogs&#039; brain scans reveal vocal responses


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

rona said:


> It's the human that's bribing not the dog.
> You can also bore a dog by repetition. A dog would rarely do half the things a human expects of them so most trainers/owners are expecting of a dog what is not natural anyway


So at what point are we setting natural?

Is it really natural for an animal to go fetch food for a member of another species repeatedly?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> It's the human that's bribing not the dog. You can also bore a dog by repetition. A dog would rarely do half the things a human expects of them so most trainers/owners are expecting of a dog what is not natural anyway


The dog would have to understand what bribing is to be bribed? Not sure how you dishonestly persuade a dog?

So what is bribing a dog? If petting a dog for sitting bribing them? Telling them they are a good boy bribing them, letting them play with a toy bribing them?

Or is it simply motivating them to repeat a behaviour.

So my work is bribing me?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Or this?
Neuroscientist uses MRI scans to show that dogs have emotions similar to humans | Fox News

http://www.futurity.org/scans-reveal-what-your-dog-is-thinking/


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Meezey said:


> The dog would have to understand what bribing is to be bribed? Not sure how you dishonestly persuade a dog?
> 
> So what is bribing a dog? If petting a dog for sitting bribing them? Telling them they are a good boy bribing them, letting them play with a toy bribing them?
> 
> ...


I've tried this conversation before. If you have no concept I haven't the vocabulary to explain 

I'm a simple soul who doesn't need words just empathy


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2014)

rona said:


> I've tried this conversation before. If you have no concept I haven't the vocabulary to explain


Its a poor teacher who blames the student for not understanding.

The study of dog brains with the MRI scan suggests that dogs experience a wider range of emotions that previously thought. Nowhere does it suggest dogs might be stubborn. Is stubborn even an emotion? Im not convinced that it is.

I do agree thought that we hugely underestimate dogs in numerous ways. Dogs have awesomely complex personalities and quirks and theyre just plain fascinating. 
And I think labeling refusal to comply with a known cue as stubborn is just one more way we underestimate the complexity that is the dogs brain and thought processes. FWIW, I think we underestimate kids too


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> *Hey, speaking of labels, calling someone retarded as an insult is really uncool :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
> *
> In the end of course the label doesnt really matter as long as the relationship is sound, as long as the partnership and mutual understanding is working for both parties.
> The problem is, so often those labeling their dogs stubborn, are also the ones struggling with all of the above. They have a dog who doesnt respond reliably, who is not motivated by the relationship, who blows the handler off.
> From where Im standing, explaining away the behavior as stubborn doesnt seem to be working. *So, when something isnt working, its time to do something else right?*


You are right, it was rude of me. But retarded is not a label in this country. It went out of fashion a long time ago. Retard is still used as an insult though.

And of course when your method of training is not working you try something else. Too many trainers have one set of tools to fit all and always have done. Look at the owner and look at the dog and find a way that works for the pair of them.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> Or this?
> Neuroscientist uses MRI scans to show that dogs have emotions similar to humans | Fox News


Yep knew that hence I said about serotonin, and those kind of emotions in dogs, I don't see anything that says about them being stubborn? Emotions are different to personality traits.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> The study of dog brains with the MRI scan suggests that dogs experience a wider range of emotions that previously thought. Nowhere does it suggest dogs might be stubborn. Is stubborn even an emotion? Im not convinced that it is.


While that's true, it doesn't say that dogs will be stubborn because of this, they also said this is the first study of the sort and there will be more. Who knows what they will find eventually.

What it does prove though is that a lot of the 'specialists' who have previously said that dogs do not experience certain emotions and so should not be looked on in that way were wrong.

Dogs within the same litter are born with different personalities and characteristics. Some are naturally quieter while others are bolshy and stubborn, it's a personality trait and surely we all think our dogs have distinct personalities?

Anyway, I personally don't set too much store by it because I've seen and experienced things myself.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> While that's true, it doesn't say that dogs will be stubborn because of this, they also said this is the first study of the sort and there will be more. Who knows what they will find eventually.
> 
> What it does prove though is that a lot of the 'specialists' who have previously said that dogs do not experience certain emotions and so should not be looked on in that way were wrong.
> 
> ...


See thats where we would have to define stubborn. Is it an emotion? Is it a personality trait? How do we define it? If we cant define what stubborn is, how can we say that dogs are or are not stubborn? What purpose would being stubborn serve?

But I do agree that it is exciting to continue to learn more and more about dogs. I for one cant wait to see what else we discover.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> See thats where we would have to define stubborn. Is it an emotion? Is it a personality trait? How do we define it? If we cant define what stubborn is, how can we say that dogs are or are not stubborn? What purpose would being stubborn serve?
> 
> But I do agree that it is exciting to continue to learn more and more about dogs. I for one cant wait to see what else we discover.


But that's the thing, dogs have emotions AND they have personality traits, this we all know by just seeing our own dogs, so whether stubborn be an emotion or a personality trait, dogs have the capacity to be stubborn.


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

All you who are arguing that your dogs are stubborn and giving examples of such behaviour are just arguing against yourselves and proving a point.

Its not rocket science*. A dog knows how to do 'X' but for some reason; location, distraction,distance etc (sorry are those words too jargonised for some of you simple souls to understand ) at that particular moment in time whatever is being offered is not important enough for the dog to offer the requested behaviour.

You have not found the motivation for your dog to obey you in that specific instance. Even if he has always done it for cheese before, it doesn't make dog stubborn it makes human not motivating 'enough'.

Personally I think stubborn is a pretty retarded label for anything, dog or child (or husband ), unless they are prepared to cut their nose off to spite their face. Refusing to do x because we dont want to lose face, thats stubborn stupidity and I just dont believe a dog does have that kind of mind, I dont believe a dog has 'face' to lose, there will be something that they want enough, it just might be that todays chosen 'bribe' or 'reward;' which ever side of the fence you sit, be it money or cheese or ice cream (or even avoidance of punishment) is not enough of a motivator today.

* It is actually science, simple learning, offer enough of Y and 'it' will do X despite A,B & C

Or behavioural, changing deep a rooted response, P, to stimulus Q, show 'it' Q and surround the experience with lots of positivity +Y and Q becomes less of a trigger for behaviour P. Equally surround it with lots of negativity -Y and the response P will either become more extreme, or it will be learned that Q is not as bad as -Y.

It holds true for dogs, cats, people, elephants etc etc

The Y can be bribes/rewards cheese, money, affection, play etc or it can be removal of unpleasantness, tight leash, shock, boot, ear nip, shouting, displeasure, presence of another dog they dislike.

I have never ever met a dog that will do Y or ignore Q for nothing whatsoever, even if it appears to be the case, there will be something it has gained, for the so called very biddable breeds (and I am very aware there are nuances and exceptions throughout every breed) such as the gundog group, herders etc its true this might just be the pleasure in their owners voice, the recognition they got it right, a pat on the head, or the avoidance of something unpleasant, but that is still a tangible 'thing' they have gained.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2014)

emmaviolet said:


> But that's the thing, dogs have emotions AND they have personality traits, this we all know by just seeing our own dogs, so whether stubborn be an emotion or a personality trait, dogs have the capacity to be stubborn.


Of course dogs have emotions and personalities - far more complex ones than we give them credit for. Thats not in dispute. 
What Im not convinced of is that stubborn is either. I dont know that stubborn is a personality trait or an emotion. (Actually, Im pretty sure stubborn is not an emotion.)

To me it seems stubborn is a label reach for (often anthropomorphically) when a dog refuses a known cue and were not sure why. Or maybe were convinced the dog gave us a so there look when he refused the cue so the stubborn is even more believable.

But if were truly honest, were simply putting our own biases on whats motivating the behavior. Kind of like when I convince myself that OH deliberately forgets key items when I sent him to do the shopping so that I wont ask him to do the shopping again. The reality is just that hes not as detail-oriented as me and he genuinely simply forgets. No ulterior motive. 
Im also convinced that my old horse used to laugh at me when he dumped me. He would stop at a jump, Id go sailing over his head and he would stand there looking down at me and I swear he looked amused. Do I know for sure he though it was funny? No. He was probably quite interested in what I was doing on the ground and if I was going to get up annoyed, but I dont know that the horse found humor in the whole situation like a human would.

IOW, we just dont know. And personally I would rather say I dont know than throw a blanket label like stubborn over a dog. I dont think the latter allows for growth. Saying I dont know leaves you far more open for solutions.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

moonviolet said:


> So at what point are we setting natural?
> 
> Is it really natural for an animal to go fetch food for a member of another species repeatedly?


Funny you should bring up what is natural and unnatural for dogs.

I have just been admonished on a FB group for choosing to feed my dogs their raw food frozen. Apparently, feed frozen is "unnatural". Well, yes, it is, but the entire process of feeding my dogs select, portioned chunks of various meats is pretty unnatural. Unless I start flinging them whole, fur and all carcasses, there is always going to be some element of the "unnatural" in what I'm doing.

At the end of the day, just sticking a collar and lead on your dog can be considered "unnatural" so it is a strange choice of word to be bandied about by dog owners.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

The way I personally interpret the word "stubborn" is like someone else said - sort of "cutting off your nose to spite your face", such as refusing to do something even though you know its the better / safer / more rewarding option. Like someone having a strop and refusing for the hell of it.

I don't believe dogs are capable of this. Dogs do what they do for a reason - whether that is what we want them to do or not depends on several factors.

So to get all anthropomorphic lol look at it from a human perspective... 

My friend L is a very good driver, and was a good driver for a long time before passing her driving test after many failed attempts. As soon as she faced an exam situation it all went to pot and she just couldn't drive. Was she being stubborn? Or was it simply that she was "over threshold" and far too stressed, leading to poor concentration, crap memory and increased likelihood of mistakes?

My dad is addicted to Farmville on Facebook. He gets completely engrossed in it to the extent he doesn't know you're there. You can stand right next to him and ask him to pass you a pen... and he will completely blank you. Is he being stubborn refusing to do as you ask? Or does he genuinely not even hear or register the request because his mind is otherwise occupied?

I suffer from IBS and at times get cripppling stomach cramps. I also do most of the housework. Sometimes I won't bother doing the washing up, or I'll get OH to do it. Am I too stubborn to do it myself? Or is the pain more motivating to curl up in a foetal position, than any possible motivation I could have for washing dishes?

IMO most of the dogs described as stubborn as simply poorly trained. Specific actions described as stubborn tend to be simply misunderstood. either way I don't see any reason to "blame the dog". It is after all just being a dog, or indeed, behaving like a normal living, sentient creature!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Funny you should bring up what is natural and unnatural for dogs.
> 
> I have just been admonished on a FB group for choosing to feed my dogs their raw food frozen. Apparently, feed frozen is "unnatural". Well, yes, it is, but the entire process of feeding my dogs select, portioned chunks of various meats is pretty unnatural. Unless I start flinging them whole, fur and all carcasses, there is always going to be some element of the "unnatural" in what I'm doing.
> 
> At the end of the day, *just sticking a collar and lead on your dog can be considered "unnatura*l" so it is a strange choice of word to be bandied about by dog owners.


Quite :thumbup::thumbup:

Awful things we do and then say we love our pets


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

rona said:


> Quite :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> Awful things we do and then say we love our pets


The only person able to stick their nose in the air and claim all pet owners are evil is the person who doesn't own any pets .

Is the way we treat them or indeed any of our domesticated animals unnatural? Yes of course it is. We choose their mates, we choose where they live, what they eat, we make them work for us in some capacity. But it's what humans do, we've been shaping the world around us for millennia.

But most people are happy to accept that we can control when or if they breed and to who, where they go to the toilet, what they eat. But god forbid we then ask them to do other things


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Interesting views on this on a group which lead to people stomping off and leaving the group! So do you think a dog not doing something , even when you say it "knows" what you want is just a dog being stubborn, so for example people say Rottweilers are stubborn, so if I asked Cian to get off the sofa and sometimes he did and other times I had to take his collar and remove him is he being stubborn?


I took this to be a fairly light hearted thread, but people seem to be over analysing it. I can now see why some people n FB threw their toys out the pram. Which I couldn't when you first started it!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Blitz said:


> To me that is just jargon, far worse than labelling. What you mean is your dog is disobeying you and you are not sure whether you have taught it properly. I am sure a dog always has its own good reason for not obeying but that is no excuse. If a dog does not come back when it is called, when it has been trained to, it does not matter what the reason is, it has disobeyed. One of the reasons might be stubborness or he might be anxious or distracted or over excited - no excuse not to do as he is told.
> If you have to tell a dog to sit several times and it eventually reluctantly sits it is quite possibly being stubborn.
> 
> Why do some people want their dog training to be filled with jargon and not common sense.


Hi,

You may not understand the concept and process the other poster was describing but that does not make it jargon or nonsense. 

"Proofing" is certainly not rubbish. It is the process we use, when having preliminarily taught a behaviour at a basic level in a neutral/low distraction environment and we take the behaviour a step further, either adding things like duration to it (dog having to perform the behaviour for longer periods of time before reward) and ask them to perform the behaviour in increasingly distracting environments. In doing so, we ensure that the dog has enough invested in the behaviour and relationship with the human for it to be worth performing in these environments. This part of the training process is certainly not to be dismissed, all good trainers invest in proofing behaviours well. 
That is why, if as you describe the dog does not obey (rather biased verb to use, the dog is not a slave, he is your companion... but anyway) it is because you haven't made sure that the behaviour is well trained enough for that environment. That's on YOU, not the dog.

If anything trainers that blame the dog are being stubborn themselves in their failure to recognize that actually, they didn't do a perfect job yet.

If you have to tell a dog to perform a behaviour multiple times (in trainers terminology we call that "re-cuing"), it could be for a multitude of reasons; none of which include stubbornness.
-Something else in the environment is more reinforcing, than potential reinforcement for compliance with the cued behaviour (not enough proofing). 
- The dog is highly aroused and lacking impulse control and so cannot engage in operant behaviours (yes... jargon I know. There is actually something to it though... neuroscience related actually)
- The dog is overstimulated and/or distressed (same reasons as above, if the part of brain that is highly active is that which deals in the production of adaptive behavioural responses, in response to perceived threats, this will trump the the part responsible for responding with operant behaviours, even when they are cued... surviving is more important!)

^ A few examples, the list could go on ^

I think people like explanations such as stubbornness or even the D word (dominance) because they simplify and give us an easy way to classify the animal and make us feel better about having not trained the dog how we imagined or aimed to. 
Similarly if you can't be bothered to train or work with the dog or never got round to it, classifying them as stubborn, gives you an excellent excuse not to bother anyway.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> I took this to be a fairly light hearted thread, but people seem to be over analysing it. I can now see why some people n FB threw their toys out the pram. Which I couldn't when you first started it!


It's an interesting debate lol I don't expect people on here to strop off, we will just have the same arguments with the same people or different ones then move on. Think most are a bit to switched on to flounce.. most........


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> I took this to be a fairly light hearted thread, but people seem to be over analysing it. I can now see why some people n FB threw their toys out the pram. Which I couldn't when you first started it!


TBF agreeing that the dog is " stubborn" is quite dangerous in the thread on group, but those who didn't like to see dogs being bribed and those who thought because the dog did it sometimes times and not others just put it down to being stubborn, add to that a rescue ambull who the owner was wary of, saying a dog was just stubborn will not end well....


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> Hi,
> 
> You may not understand the concept and process the other poster was describing but
> 
> ...


I have trained my dogs for decades thanks. And I have never used the worrd dominant because thankfully I predate the rise of behaviourists and therefore the market for tosh theories. 
I do however have a stubborn dog. Just the one. The others aren`t. The 20 or so others I`ve owned weren`t . The hundreds of dogs I ve seen at classes, courses and workshops weren`t But this one is. 
I am happy for you to take him so you can prove me wrong, however. 
But please don`t assume I`m stupid because I don`t agree with your Words of Wisdom. 
Dog training is not that hard. Honestly it`s not.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I've lost count of the times I have been told that Am bulls are stubborn 

They are not. 
They are independent thinkers, if something isn't motivating enough then they find something else that IS motivating to them..

It can be hard work to find out what is motivating, and just because one thing works in one situation it does not mean that it will transfer to another situation.

You have to constantly think outside of the box and you have to be one step ahead...but do I think they don't follow a cue because of stubbornness? 

No, no I don't..I think that it is my fault for not providing the right motivation, or not proofing (oh my, sorry to those that don't like jargon ) the desired behaviour enough.. So it is down to me to take a step back, work out where I went wrong and start again...


Some dogs are born to please their owners (no matter what others say, some breeds are biddable and some are not), and some dogs are bred to be free thinkers.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Meezey said:


> TBF agreeing that the dog is " stubborn" is quite dangerous in the thread on group, but those who didn't like to see dogs being bribed and those who thought because the dog did it sometimes times and not others just put it down to being stubborn, add to that a rescue ambull who the owner was wary of, saying a dog was just stubborn will not end well....


Was that the 8 week old puppy the woman was saying she was going to muzzle already because she was convinced he was dangerous because he was a rescue? :crazy:

That group can be a bit much sometimes, god forbid you mention anything but force free.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

It makes me chuckle as most people have stated their breed is renowned for being stubborn and guess what I'm going to say! 

Jack Russells are meant to be really stubborn and there are times I would describe Dottie as stubborn but I would say that's because I haven't trained recall properly in different environments. 

I suppose its what motivates each dog. For example, Dottie had a huge stick in her mouth the other day, she recalled back and I offered her the treat, practically stuck it up her nose and she walked away, where as Charlie scoffed his in 2 seconds. To me it's knowing what motivates each individual dog.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2014)

Just thought Id throw this out there, 
When Pigs Fly by Jane Killion is an excellent book for those who have stubborn dogs - and those who dont!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I have trained my dogs for decades thanks. And I have never used the worrd dominant because thankfully I predate the rise of behaviourists and therefore the market for tosh theories.
> I do however have a stubborn dog. Just the one. The others aren`t. The 20 or so others I`ve owned weren`t . The hundreds of dogs I ve seen at classes, courses and workshops weren`t But this one is.
> I am happy for you to take him so you can prove me wrong, however.
> But please don`t assume I`m stupid because I don`t agree with your Words of Wisdom.
> Dog training is not that hard. Honestly it`s not.


I was replying to Blitz??? 

I never said or assumed anyone was stupid.

My point simply was to encourage people not to dismiss words or training programmes that others described in the thread as "jargon" just because they aren't familiar with the terminology.

My comments about calling dogs stubborn still stand. It's pure anthropomorphism and means we often misunderstand the dog. But that is my opinion. 
I'll disagree about dog training not being hard. I think high level training takes an awful lot of skill, good timing, understanding of scientific theory and its application and dedication.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

I like the term 'independent thinker' that was used. The rare time that my oldest dog has refused to do something there has always been a good reason for it.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

lemmsy said:


> My comments about calling dogs stubborn still stand. It's pure anthropomorphism and means we often misunderstand the dog. But that is my opinion.


I agree with you. If you take the definition of stubborn as: _having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so.
_

I think that where most people call their dogs stubborn they have simply not given their dog a good reason to do something. My dog was written off by an instructor as being scent-driven and stubborn (and that was just because of his breeding). He is not stubborn but, in the training classes he was not sufficiently motivated by food to do what I was asking rather than sniffing for foxes (well that, and I was asking too much of him).


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> I've lost count of the times I have been told that Am bulls are stubborn
> 
> They are not.
> *They are independent thinkers,* if something isn't motivating enough then they find something else that IS motivating to them..
> ...


According to most on this thread they can't do that


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> According to most on this thread they can't do that


Huh? What has a dog thinking for itself have to do with being stubborn?


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

rona said:


> According to most on this thread they can't do that


What  because we dont think dogs are being stubborn, and refusing to do things 'for the sake of it' 

Its exactly the dogs free thinking that backs us up. They are thinking for themselves and deciding that the reward is not there. Not just being some dumbass creature who cant/wont do it. Why do you persist in your ignorance of modern training techniques? Oh never mind you wont bother explaining will you 

Meezey, I believe its a new version of Ronas old staple that we have dead eyed robot dogs if we use modern training methods and bribe our dogs to perform again and again and again till they are bored to the point of being unable to think :tongue:


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

GingerRogers said:


> What  because we dont think dogs are being stubborn, and refusing to do things 'for the sake of it'
> 
> Its exactly the dogs free thinking that backs us up. They are thinking for themselves and deciding that the reward is not there. Not just being some dumbass creature who cant/wont do it. Why do you persist in your ignorance of modern training techniques? Oh never mind you wont bother explaining will you
> 
> Meezey, I believe its a new version of Ronas old staple that we have dead eyed robot dogs if we use modern training methods and bribe our dogs to perform again and again and again till they are bored to the point of being unable to think :tongue:


Ohhhhhh is that it....

Wow yet my joy in training comes from having dogs that think for themselves, who won't accept the "I might do it because a I'm worried about what will happen if I don't" but the dogs who do it because they enjoy it and it's rewarding for them.....Maybe that is why I don't have to kick, poke or hit my dog to get their attention....


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> As Dr Susan Friedman said in her seminar a couple of months ago, in a necropsy you would not be able to locate the organ of stubborness in a dog.
> 
> Still sticking labels on things (whatever the species) appears to suit a lot of people, it saves them having to think outside the box.


Well you couldn't in a human either...


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> Meezey, I believe its a new version of Ronas old staple that we have dead eyed robot dogs if we use modern training methods and bribe our dogs to perform again and again and again till they are bored to the point of being unable to think :tongue:


Now I didn't say that :hand:


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Well, dogs may or may not be stubborn, but PF posters certainly are :lol:


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

I think its an individual thing and not a breed thing. All my dogs can be stubborn with certain things, but Katy is probably the most.


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## Spockles (Jun 14, 2014)

agrumpycow said:


> I'm a push-over and he knew it


Awww...hooray for dogs exercising their brains and freedom of choice!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

SpringerHusky said:


> If this is from the group I think it is, I'm rather disappointed the person left seeing as they got a dog they were afraid of and the methods they are heading isn't going to me good.
> 
> *Honestly Stubborn sounds harsh but I do kind of believe dogs will refuse to do things because they don't want to. Maya had no interest in tricks or pulling, I called her stubborn headed but she was just a smart dog who knew what she did and didn't liked*.


This.

I think some dogs are more biddable than others. Just like some people are more easy going or submissive than others.

No matter how well trained a dog is, or how good a handler is, surely there are occasions when a dog simply doesn't want to do whatever it's being told to do....? They're not robots, after all.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Of course dogs have emotions and personalities - far more complex ones than we give them credit for. Thats not in dispute.
> What Im not convinced of is that stubborn is either. I dont know that stubborn is a personality trait or an emotion. (Actually, Im pretty sure stubborn is not an emotion.)
> 
> To me it seems stubborn is a label reach for (often anthropomorphically) when a dog refuses a known cue and were not sure why. Or maybe were convinced the dog gave us a so there look when he refused the cue so the stubborn is even more believable.
> ...


But men the world over conspire to get shopping wrong so that we do it ourselves rather than asking them to do it. They are in cahoots with each other


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lemmsy said:


> Hi,
> 
> You may not understand the concept and process the other poster was describing but that does not make it jargon or nonsense.
> 
> ...


Cheeky brat :tongue_smilie: Believe it or not I am not stupid and I do understand English. I just think that jargon is a load of totally unnecessary rubbish to make someone feel clever. Just say the same thing in plain english and it makes a lot more sense and makes you sound a lot more sensible.

* (in trainers terminology we call that "re-cuing"),* :crazy: If I met a trainer that spoke like that I would crack up then run a mile. I prefer trainers that have confidence in their ability to assess a dog and handler not regurgitate from a book.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> No matter how well trained a dog is, or how good a handler is, there are occasions when a dog simply doesn't want to do whatever it's being told to do....? They are not robots.


 :thumbup: :001_smile:


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

It is a little known fact that many trainers do not have to regurgitate from books.

As it is a well known fact that many do not read any.

I expect the latter are much better than the former.

Of course job specific jargon disturbs those who do not understand the correct terminology.

Too funny.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Meezey said:


> ... do you think a dog *not* doing something, even when you say [s/he] "knows" what you want, is just... being stubborn?
> 
> EX, people say Rotts are stubborn - if I [ask] Cian to get off the sofa... sometimes he did; other times,
> I had to take [hold of] his collar, & remove him. Is [that an example of a dog] being stubborn?


What if, rather than failing to DO something we want them to do, the dog CONTINUES to do something
we DON't want her or him to do? ... Is that "stubborn"?

In both instances, it depends.   THe dog might not hear or see the cue, may not have been proofed
in these circs / this setting, might be anxious / excited / scared / etc & can't concentrate, may have had
zero training [think of all the shelter-dogs who don't know how to SIT on cue!... Sad], may not feel well,
& so on.

If a dog is in pain [localized or general], s/he won't want to move much, if at all. If they're sick or feel
very upset [favorite family-member left for college?... Married & moved out?... Died?...], same thing -
depressed dogs don't want to move, play, eat, etc. :nonod:

If a dog is *normally* compliant & easygoing, & today for some unknown reason they are not
compliant & are snarking at humans or other animals, i'd head for the vet's immediately. That's always
the very 1st resort, *make sure there are no health issues that cause a sudden behavior change.*

Dogs who are sometimes compliant & sometimes difficult may have joint pain that comes & goes,
may be excited or scared by something & unable to comply, _windy days!..._ interfere with hearing, & so on.

If U're in a noisy setting, use hand-signals to communicate with Ur dog. If U haven't taught any, why not? 
They're a great fall-back for emergencies, such as during a crashing thunderstorm, LOUD concert,
& in other distracting, noisy places.

Re failure to comply:
By & large, it's been my experience that 90% of the time the dog hasn't been proofed or insufficiently proofed,
the handler gives conflicting signals [yells "COME!" in a furious tone of voice? - asks the dog to Come but walks
===> toward the dog, rather than wait for the dog?... Etc], is untrained or overexcited or anxious, etc.

Re failure to QUIT:
Most of the time, IME, the dog is doing something deeply instinctive OR repeatedly rehearsed, & can't
easily break off the behavior; either the dog has never learnt self-control or s/he is stuck in a self-rewarding
pattern [Ex, jump the fence to run off & explore, with well-intentioned neighbors feeding the "hungry"
dog.]

So no - over 9 times of 10, the dog who can't quit IMO is not "stubborn". They're stuck.
.
.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Blitz said:


> Cheeky brat :tongue_smilie: Believe it or not I am not stupid and I do understand English. I just think that jargon is a load of totally unnecessary rubbish to make someone feel clever. Just say the same thing in plain english and it makes a lot more sense and makes you sound a lot more sensible.
> 
> * (in trainers terminology we call that "re-cuing"),* :crazy: If I met a trainer that spoke like that I would crack up then run a mile. I prefer trainers that have confidence in their ability to assess a dog and handler not regurgitate from a book.


Hello,

Again, I did not call or suggest anyone was stupid. If you got that impression I apologize, that was certainly not my intention.

I merely wanted to get across that you should not dismiss terminology (heck, any concept or anything really) that you are not familiar with, purely on the basis you are not familiar with it. 
I think the jargon, you describe is in most cases used by theorists or professionals (in fact anyone with an interest in the field) as a short cut, to make their explanation/study concise and clear. Writing it out in plain English would be rather lengthy and likely make less sense as a consequence.

Clearly trainers aren't just going to regurgitate books or use terminology for the sake of it. The best teachers have the ability to adapt and select the information that will be of greatest help to their students. They will also have the skill to explain the concept/programme in appropriate terms (alot of this is about reading the student and what is appropriate for them as an individual), implement it so that it is of use to the student, who can then be successful in their learning and practice. That's just good teaching.

You seem rather averse to people using terminology. I get it, it might seem like people are showing off (and I'm sure some people do use it to show off- though as you point out, they won't be very good teachers). 
Actually it's worth bearing in mind that most just have a massive and very genuine interest and passion for their field and what they do. Using the appropriate terminology is a big part of being successful in this and being able to understand and explain complex behaviour processes and implement modification plans properly. If you want to understand science, you have to embrace the terminology and theory. Then you learn to appropriate put it into practice.


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2014)

Fluffster said:


> Well, dogs may or may not be stubborn, but PF posters certainly are :lol:


Too true!! :lol: 



lemmsy said:


> Actually it's worth bearing in mind that most just have a massive and very genuine interest and passion for their field and what they do. Using the appropriate terminology is a big part of being successful in this and being able to understand and explain complex behaviour processes and implement modification plans properly. If you want to understand science, you have to embrace the terminology and theory. Then you learn to appropriate put it into practice.


Yep  AKA being a nerd  My day job deals with language acquisition - and guess where else I tend to use jargon?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

smokeybear said:


> Of course job specific jargon disturbs those who do not understand the correct terminology.


Which is exactly it's aim ...to confuse lol 

*Jargon *-_language that is characterized by uncommon or pretentious vocabulary and convoluted syntax and is often vague in meaning. Special words or expressions used by a profession or group that are difficult for others to understand._

Dog Training has become awash with jargon over the past 10 years or so.

Not that jargon effects the theory as to whether dogs are stubborn or not. And having read this thread all the way through (over breakfast) I think the answer is ....no one can agree. Interesting opinions tho :biggrin5:

J


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm not sure whether dogs are deliberately stubborn or not.

However, what word could be used to describe this:

Jack slept all night in his comfy dog bed next to my side of the marital king sized.

This morning, at around 6.30am Jack gets up and has several stretches, then intimates that he needs to go out for a wee.

I get up to go down and let him out, but stop off in the bathroom first so that I can use the loo. 

I immediately hear Jack jump onto the MKS and do his contented groan!

Clever, cunning, cheeky - all words that could apply - not to mention SPOILT!

I just went downstairs and put the kettle on, chuckling to myself 

Words that could describe me: gullible, mug, etc............... :biggrin5:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> It is a little known fact that many trainers do not have to regurgitate from books.
> 
> As it is a well known fact that many do not read any.
> 
> ...


I am sure that most who quote jargon read more than do.

I understand the jargon perfectly, which is why I translated it. I am not uneducated but I see no point in talking like a boring text book and when on a forum like this you are talking to people across a huge range of educational skills and it is, in my opinion, arrogant as well as pointless, to talk in a way that will not be understood by a lot and will annoy or bore a lot more. I think the art of being able to put over your point is to do it in a way that will be understood by your audience, not either overawe or annoy them.

I can honestly say that if I went to a talk/seminar/conference on any subject and someone started jargon babbling I would either fall asleep or walk out. It would not mean I could not understand it, it would mean I had no interest in what that person was saying as they so obviously would have no interest in their audience.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blitz said:


> I understand the jargon perfectly, which is why I translated it.


If you understood it then why is it such an issue?
If you understood it then countless others will have understood it. Or are you implying that you are one of a few?

That is the great thing with the English language, we have many ways of essentially saying the same thing...It is personal choice how you go about it, and so long as others understand who actually cares what words are used? The message is still the same?

When I see someone worry more about the terminology used, than the actual message I see someone stuck in their ways and unwilling to learn....We all learn throughout our lives, not one single person knows it all...If you want to discredit what someone says because of their choice of words....well, you will be cutting your nose off to spite your face.

All my humble opinion of course


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Jargon is shorthand for those in the know.

No one babbles jargon IME

Of course it is entirely possible to attend a seminar which is above your level of understanding and then blame the use of jargon for your failure to determine whether or not this was suitable for you.

We all adapt our vocabulary to suit the relevant audience.

When I give presentations or briefings I tailor it to the delegates.

There are still many people who confuse the terms reward and reinforcer, and punishment, claiming it is possible to train anything without the use of punishment demonstrates to me their lack of understanding of learning theory.

I do not have to use jargon to ascertain that. 

But they are using language (not jargon) that they themselves do not understand (in this context).


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> If you understood it then why is it such an issue?
> If you understood it then countless others will have understood it. Or are you implying that you are one of a few?
> 
> That is the great thing with the English language, we have many ways of essentially saying the same thing...It is personal choice how you go about it, and so long as others understand who actually cares what words are used? The message is still the same?
> ...


I don't see anyone actually discrediting what anyone has said except those that have used jargon. They seem to be under the impression that what they are saying is some wonderful new phenomenon. It's not, we have known about it and practiced it since the wonderful Mr Dunbar started his turnover of the "old school" training methods in the 70s. That's 40 years ago. I was young then!!

He even made it so simple souls like me could understand


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

I use the term Stubborn. But not for it's original intended purpose. 

Like much of English language today one word can have multiple meanings adapted to a certain circumstance/person/situation. 

I have called dogs 'stubborn' but in reference to the fact the dog is hard headed or a dog that needs high motivation to do quite simple commands than other dogs. 

Being fully aware a dog doesn't hold malicious emotions like a human does, I use stubborn for when I'm dealing with a dog that knows how to or has the capabilities to do something but will only do something with high end rewards rather than say just a pat on the side and a "Good dog"

For example. I call Enzo stubborn. Not for the fact I feel he doesn't execute a behaviour when asked out of spite but because I have to make more of a show of rewarding than say my Labrador Lola who will do anything for just for a stroked head and a "good girl" as her ideal. 

All dogs are trainable, all have the capabilities to be the epitome of obedience however some breeds are naturally harder to train than others. I don't care who disagrees with me it is the simple truth. Hence why you wouldn't recommend some breeds to novice owners, owners that work full time, owners that cannot provide certain exercise hours, owners that haven't done research.

I sometimes feel people look a little far into how we talk about a dog, when in fact it's just something we say with an adapted meaning to save time and long extensive conversation about the ins and outs of motivation or not enough motivation or inadequacy in the owner or the dogs hard headed. 

If someone says it to me I know exactly what they mean and don't look too far into it. But like I said, that's just me. Everyone's different I spose...


----------



## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Lucky certainly exhibits stubborn behaviour.

I am not saying they actively realise that they are being little sh*ts but I do think that if they don't want to do something then they won't, unless of course lured with a treat or ball etc.

For example, Lucky always goes out for her last pee between 10-11. She has done for years. Some nights she just walks around the garden in circles glancing up at me in the window occassionally. If she thinks I'm not looking she will run back in. 
Now if I get a treat out she will have a pee in a matter of seconds, not a small pee either, a long one, which indicates to me that she did need to go.
This does suggest that she's holding out for the treat but not going to pee until she sees/smells the treat is a stubborn behaviour in my opinion and she will literally walk round and round and round and will not have a pee.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> I don't see anyone actually discrediting what anyone has said except those that have used jargon. They seem to be under the impression that what they are saying is some wonderful new phenomenon. It's not, we have known about it and practiced it since the wonderful Mr Dunbar started his turnover of the "old school" training methods in the 70s. That's 40 years ago. I was young then!!
> 
> He even made it so simple souls like me could understand


Sorry but I'm under no impression that anything I've said is some wonderful new phenomenon.

As for being unable to take my audience into consideration, well that is exactly what I've done here. I wouldn't have thought the "jargon" was an issue on a forum full of knowledgeable dog enthusiasts, especially not in a discussion such as this one. If you understood it then I don't see why the vocabulary used is such a big issue and I agree, it seems very silly to discredit someone for the choice of words alone.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Really does it matter what way people speak/write? Some people are articulate use jargon in every day speak, because it's natural to them, they are comfortable talking like it and it's their way of speaking, if people don't like it or think people are trying to be " high and mighty" then down their their own personal issues I think. It's also a bit patronising to assume just because people have different levels of education means they don't understand..... I work in two of the most jargon filled worlds Software Dev and Sales. Spend a few days with some software developers and then complain about jargon. Christ the whole world has to dumb down these days, it's like your insulting others because you us terms for your profession................. :001_rolleyes:


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> This.
> 
> I think some dogs are more biddable than others. Just like some people are more easy going or submissive than others.
> 
> No matter how well trained a dog is, or how good a handler is, surely there are occasions when a dog simply doesn't want to do whatever it's being told to do....? They're not robots, after all.


Exactly, its just words change more biddable to less stubborn means the same 

Personally I think its a lot to do with the level of intelligence, our Tibetan Terrier was a bright dog he could work out how to do achieve something he wanted - he was not biddable at all and would never do anything he did not want to. Dougie is an out & out dope (very lovable but pretty dense) and does what you want all the time



Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Dog Training has become awash with jargon over the past 10 years or so.
> 
> Not that jargon effects the theory as to whether dogs are stubborn or not. And having read this thread all the way through (over breakfast) *I think the answer is ....no one can agree*. Interesting opinions tho :biggrin5:
> 
> J


Or ............... nobody knows for sure


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Just thought I'd throw this out there,
> "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion is an excellent book for those who have "stubborn" dogs - and those who don't!


Tried that.........
didn`t help.

And now, 4 years down the line after an hour`s leadwork a day training, I got 10 minutes of calm walking. Out of the hour. Go me 

(just need to continue to comment for all those people who also have a `challenging` dog. Sometimes it actually IS the dog - not ignorance / lack of persistence / not high value rewards / stupidity / prejudice.............)


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Tried that.........
> didn`t help.
> 
> And now, 4 years down the line after an hour`s leadwork a day training, I got 10 minutes of calm walking. Out of the hour. Go me
> ...


Haha - I feel your pain!

(Buster is Stubborn as you like. Even when he is doing what he is told, if unhappy about it, he has the most grumpy sounding grumble in the process of doing as told in the slowest possible manner...)


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Tried that.........
> didn`t help.
> 
> And now, 4 years down the line after an hour`s leadwork a day training, I got 10 minutes of calm walking. Out of the hour. Go me
> ...


I get you, I too have what many consider very challenging dogs.
And many behaviour traits such as fearfulness, predisposition for aggression, short attention span, health conditions that limit all of the above, potential for high level scavenging behaviour etc are indeed part and parcel of the dog's makeup. But that doesn't make the dog stubborn, that just makes the dog a dog.

On another note and this not at all a criticism, just a question really, since when I work my dogs in agility or other things it's never non-stop, without breaks for as long as that; 
Isn't a hour's solid heelwork a little long for a training session, 121?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Sorry but I'm under no impression that anything I've said is some wonderful new phenomenon.
> 
> As for being unable to take my audience into consideration, well that is exactly what I've done here. I wouldn't have thought the "jargon" was an issue on a forum full of knowledgeable dog enthusiasts, especially not in a discussion such as this one. If you understood it then I don't see why the vocabulary used is such a big issue and I agree, it seems very silly to discredit someone for the choice of words alone.


Sorry. That should have read "some".


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

If you look at it another way and swap stubborn for determined which I believe can mean virtually the same thing only one is seen as positive while the other (as proved by the response here) is seen as negative. 

Now I think many people here don't see stubborn as a negative and are really meaning determined 

They are just words, it's what is behind them that matters 

Did anyone notice Nonnies post early in the thread? Said it all really


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

General statement to follow, not directed at anyone in particular....



It's a bad workman that blames his tools


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

lemmsy said:


> Isn't a hour's solid heelwork a little long for a training session, 121?


lol- no it`s essential. Because I don`t drive. 
It`s a 20 minute walk to the nearest area the dogs can go off lead. Because I use the change direction method it takes us longer. Because I stop or turn when he pulls, screams, leaps, tries to trip me up, lunges or smacks me round the back of the knees because I`m not walking fast enough.  Or because there`s an interesting leaf on the ground.....
So 30 minute walk each way average. 
The other dogs have the most wonderful heelwork now. Him - not so much.

and yes, I have tried other methods. 
I can read.
That`s the one that has produced the best results.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

rona said:


> If you look at it another way and swap stubborn for determined which I believe can mean virtually the same thing only one is seen as positive while the other (as proved by the response here) is seen as negative.
> 
> Now I think many people here don't see stubborn as a negative and are really meaning determined
> 
> )


very true. 
And note how you can call a dog biddable but not non-biddable (stubborn / determined)
Abd ain`t it funny how everyone`s an expert on other people`s dogs......


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> very true.
> And note how you can call a dog biddable but not non-biddable (stubborn / determined)
> Abd ain`t it funny how everyone`s an expert on other people`s dogs......


I like how you put it, mine are selectively biddable I know what motivates mine but it doesn't ALWAYS motivate them. They are very much their own dog.

I hate when people label all breeds as being equal and the same because they aren't. I own two breeds of dog, one extremely biddable and well behaved. Is known for being well behaved and a good first time dog.

The others are well known for being not for novices, selectively obedient and very head strong.

It's like when people like to tell me I can teach the Sibes to be offlead and recall perfectly. I know it aint going to happen!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Pezant said:


> English Setters are *notoriously* stubborn, and every single one we have had has been the same -
> mostly affable, but selectively deaf to things they're not interested in doing.
> 
> I love Henry to bits, but yes, he can be _so_ stubborn about doing commands sometimes,
> ...





BessieDog said:


> I have to agree with this!
> 
> It's the look they get in their eyes -- I also believe they have a sense of humour.


i apologize to those [hopefully few  ] who've already heard this story, but it's my absolute favorite,
re dogs' humor & their individual cleverness about compliance, "refusal", & so on.

a friend of mine in Penna was taking her current Poodle thru an intermediate manners course, & it was their
'graduation day'. A lot of games & some performance was in order, & families attended for the fun. One challenge
was for the whole class: All dogs were placed on a sit-stay at one end of the room, & their owners lined up at
the other. When instructed, each owner called her or his dog, who was expected to come front, sit, & go to
heel as cued. No galloping recalls or perfect straight-sits were mandated, just reasonably prompt response,
& the sit needn't be an auto-sit -- cueing the sit on arrival was just fine. :yesnod:

About 2/3 of the class had dutifully done their recalls, & left the floor; her Poodle did his happy best,
she & he left in turn, & the next dog was the only Afghan in the class, a gorgeous 15-MO bitch with some
quirks. Her owner called her, & she launched into a beautiful, accelerating run across the hall, directly AT
him - like a guided missile. :lol: He was understandably thrilled, smiling broadly & bending forward to
greet his lovely dog, when within 3 or 4 feet of him, she executed a flying change & turned a right angle...
to perform a *perfect* ramrod-straight sit in front of the startled woman to his right, almost touching the lady's
knees with her chest, & then looked over at her stunned owner with a big, open-mouthed grin. 

There is no way that dog didn't know what she was doing, & the whole class erupted in hysterics - her recall
lessons had been a struggle from the start, as she wasn't very attached to the man, but adored his wife,
who rarely came to class. The bitch would turn handstands for the lady, but was very cool to her husband.

Can't U just see it? ... :lol: :thumbup:
.
.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> lol- no it`s essential. Because I don`t drive.
> It`s a 20 minute walk to the nearest area the dogs can go off lead. Because I use the change direction method it takes us longer. Because I stop or turn when he pulls, screams, leaps, tries to trip me up, lunges or smacks me round the back of the knees because I`m not walking fast enough.  Or because there`s an interesting leaf on the ground.....
> So 30 minute walk each way average.
> The other dogs have the most wonderful heelwork now. Him - not so much.
> ...


Out of interest have you ever heard of the 300 peck method?
If not might be worth looking into, for use on short (well gradually longer) 121 training walks.
Also impulse control work...


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Tried that.........
> didn`t help.
> 
> And now, 4 years down the line after an hour`s leadwork a day training, I got 10 minutes of calm walking. Out of the hour. Go me
> ...


I used to think ninja was being 'stubborn' with the LLW walking then I realised that whenever she is even a tiny weeny bit aroused (which is most of the time as she is a challenging dog ) I am not going to get anything 'loose' at all and there is no point in trying on those occasions, which is why I call it NiceLW not LLW cos I lowered my expectations 

Just saying ...........:skep:


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Stubborn? I prefer "aging" .


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> ...
> I don't think anyone has - or could - examine the way a dog's brain works in the same way that we do... humans.
> Much of our knowledge of the human brain is done during brain surgery, when patients are asked about sensations
> when various parts of the brain are stimulated. A dog could never verbalise what's happening.


Actually, we can achieve much the same results in terms of brain-regions & activity by using real-time
external tests, such as blood-flow & neural activity, monitored by MRIs or sensory nets on the scalp.
Obviously, we DON't get the ongoing commentary from a dog that we'd get from a conscious human - 
but we get all the hard data of which area of the brain is Most-Busy in response to X stimulus, which
is enormously informative.

Brain-regions for memory, emotion, vision, motor activation, mirror-neurons, etc, are all well-mapped -
so we do have a good model of dogs' brains, what is used when, how much they've got [computing power],
how interconnected different regions / activities are to one another [emotion & specific behavior / stimulus
is just one such], & more. Dogs' brains aren't just *"black boxes"* anymore, with unknown contents;
we have a lot more knowledge over the past 10-years, IMO, than we had over the prior 30-years.

Active research on dogs' behavior & cognition is also a very hot area - science ignored all domestic spp for
decades, he**, centuries! -- on the erroneous premise that domestic species are automatically "dumbed down"
versions of the wild-type; IOW, their wild ancestral stock is ALWAYS spozed to be smarter. T'ain't so. :thumbup1:

Turns out dogs are brilliant at being dogs, after 100k years of cohabitation with humans, & wolves just suck
at many dog-skills that are instinctive in pups as young as 6-WO: human affiliative behaviors, reading our
emotions via facial cues & microexpressions, paying attn to OUR activities & desiring to participate [or at the
very least, accompany] while an 8-WO wolf-pup is deeply engaged in heir OWN activities, thanks very much...
& so on.

Dogs have quite incredible cognitive abilities, which were previously undreamt - among them is the
rare & amazing ability to "fast-map" a novel label to match it with a novel object, something that only
blooms in human children at about 4 to 6-YO.


BessieDog said:


> I think... we forget... the dog's ability to learn - they're not robots. They obviously do not analyse events
> in the same way we do, but they do learn cause & consequence.
> 
> Sometimes it's as a result of training & they offer a behaviour that we want. Sometimes, unfortunately, they learn
> ...


Those "accidental learning" behaviors, due to surprise events, coincidence, or just inadvertently taught by someone
who doesn't *consider the behavioral consequences* of their actions, can be really hard to re-train. :nonod:

EX, the novice owner who calls their puppy... away from play with another dog, away from the friendly
stranger who's fussing over them, out of the garden where they're peacefully napping for a - yuck! - BATH,
to be bunged into the crate just before the owner departs... And then they wonder WHY THE DOG WON'T
COME WHEN CALLED, well, duh!...  Can U say _"poisoned cue"_?


Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I suppose you could say [dogs'] behaviour could be considered stubborn when we look at it from a humans POV,
> as we tend to, because we're human. :lol: IOW, anthropomorphise the behaviour.
> 
> In reality I think... we [give] them powers of cognition that that dont actually have.
> ...


I'm under the impression that many owners & the vast majority of NON-owners give dogs no credit at all
for their considerable cognitive-abilities, but OTOH attribute emotional & social goals that dogs Do Not have -
IOW, they don't understand the crucial role of classical-association [Good THing vs Bad Thing], that consequences
drive behavior, that past experiences shape future behavior, & that dogs learn labels readily, when taught in a
way that tags objects / events / persons in ways they can readily grasp...
BUT at the same time, they attribute complex motivations to dogs that are nonexistent, such as malicious or
rebellious plots, spite, the desire to embarrass the owner / handler, an innate *"drive to dominate"*, & so on.

Ppl for some reason hate to admit this, but the old-husbands' tale of _"Dogs have an instinctive desire
to please" [please humans, that is]_ is only HALF of the real sentence - which is in full,

_Dogs, like all other species, have an innate desire to please... themselves._
And there's not a dam*ed thing wrong with that - we all want to eat when hungry, rest when tired, move
when we're understimulated, engage our environs, explore new things & new beings, enjoy routines & find them
reassuring & grounding when life gets wobbly, & so on. I don't know why dogs would supposedly become
unique among species, in desiring to put HUMAN desires above their own, in all instances; that's patently -
at least IMO - ludicrous.

Dogs do love a world & a life that makes sense, in which things happen in a somewhat predictable sequence
& consequences are consistent - they also enjoy novelty, are curious & exploratory, & like human attn,
when they are appropriately socialized / exposed to humans at an early age, with lots of happy experiences.

But they're no more altruistically noble than any other species, as a species - individual dogs may have more
or fewer altruistic impulses, but dogs are not born martyrs, looking for a sacrifice to make or a cross to
leap upon, they're affiliative but not self-denying as a species. 


Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Different breeds & different personalities require different approaches to training, but whether that makes
> one breed more stubborn than another, I dont know. I tend not to view it as such, but I can see the POV.


*Biddability* is a trait we humans often overlook - but it's key to happy relations with a dog.
Both individuals & breeds vary in how biddable they are, & it's good to assess in advance just how much self-will
U can handle, in a dog - before U get one.  It's sheer H*** to get a pup & discover after the fact that U've got
a dog whose entire agenda is self-chosen, & who has zero interests in any incentives U've got to offer.

By & large, breeds intended to co-operate are more biddable; breeds expected to act independently
are more self-directed, & will require some skillful manipulation to make THEM want to do what *U* want
them to do. Biddable breeds include gundogs, herding dogs, & companion breeds; independent breeds would
include all guardian types [livestock or property], scent- & sight-hounds, & similar skill-sets, where the dog
knows best what s/he is doing, & does it. EX, the livestock-guardian group is very self-directed, & not easily
amenable to the sort of training done by a novice owner, who is learning as they go, themselves.


Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> However, I love a bit of anthropomorphism.
> I've just called all my dogs in from the garden, as I expect a visitor. Cue lots of paws trotting in, even though they'd
> rather stay meandering 'round the garden. Except one: my 11-YO yellow Lab. Word perfect in all training except
> leaving the warm sunny spot on the patio to come inside when called. She just raised her head & looked at me.
> ...


yes - i love those moments, too.  I like being brought back down to the ground; when i forget that
my dog or any dog is an independent being with their own motives & preferences, i NEED that poke.


Meezey said:


> ...
> Training a Rott is very different from training a GSD, I "could" call Rotties stubborn, but I know it's not the case,
> it's the fact they're motivated by different things than GSDs  I couldn't change my training, & just call all
> my Rottweiler boys stubborn as an excuse for why I can't train them as easily as GSDs using the same
> methods...


Spot-on. :thumbup:

i had a client some years ago, who had bred, shown, & trained Boxers for over 30-years. As she aged,
she thought a "lighter", less athletic & muscled breed might be better. She chose [drumroll, please]...
_Standard Poodles?..._ who are as different as chalk & cheese!

Needless to say, she AND her Poodles were not very happy campers, as a family. U can't thump a Poodle
on the ribs with a hearty slap & get a big smoochy kiss, :lol: & smacking a naughty Poodle can result in
a massive loss of trust or serious cooling between owner & dog.

She was intensely frustrated that her hale-&-hearty style of training really didn't work, & wasn't very
amenable to tailoring it to suit the 3 dogs - who themselves were different ages & personalities, too. :nonod:

She was stuck with a template that didn't fit the dogs she owned, & couldn't alter it.  Sad, really.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> To me, it very much does matter why my dog has not obeyed.
> I guess to others it doesn't matter, so long as the dog does as s/he's told, regardless.


Yes - for me, WHY the dog didn't comply is crucial, & i vastly prefer to simply assume that it's my fault /
the handler's fault, rather than blame the dog, in any case where i don't KNOW why. It's less damaging to say,
"i blew the proofing", or "U need to practice outside of class", than to make the dog The Bad Guy.
Even if i'm wrong, the human gets over it faster than the dog. :shrug: No great harm done.

That's also why i prefer COMPLY to *OBEY* - failure to comply can be missed cues, distraction, anxious,
etc, whilst owners especially perceive NOT OBEYING as willful rebellion! - in all instances, which is obviously
not always correct & is very unfair. A dog who does not *obey* is by definition a Bad Dog. :nonod:


Meezey said:


> I think a lot of people [anthropomorphize] dogs, then blame the dog when s/he doesn't do as asked.
> That to me shows a lack of understanding of dogs & sets dogs up to fail...


Absolutely. :thumbsup: Owners who claim, _"Joe loves the baby so much, he'll let her do ANYthing..." _ ???
There's a reality-check coming when the baby jams a thumb in the dog's eye & gets snapped at, & those folks
will be FURIOUS with their no-longer-"loving" dog.

There are so many times that owners or onlookers totally misinterpret the dog's reactions, & presume that
dogs' motives, emotions, thoughts, etc, are like our own. In many ways, they ARE - but in many other ways,
they are wildly divergent.

Making desperate appeasement signals while a 20# toddler climbs all over U isn't self-sacrificing devotion,
it's a plea for help from the adult - which is being ignored, while the dog's supposed "tolerance" is praised.
:yikes: I hate to see infant-&-pet or child-&-pet pix where the kid is completely inapropos, & the pet
is miserable - but dealing. :nonod:
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Goldstar said:


> ...
> For example, Lucky always goes out for her last pee between 10 & 11-pm.
> She has done for years. Some nights she just walks around the garden in circles, glancing up at me
> in the window occasionally. If she thinks I'm not looking, she'll run back indoors.
> ...


i would not label this "stubborn".

i'd say U have taught a remarkable *"duration of behavior"*, going round in circles in order to prompt
the waiting human to produce a tidbit. :thumbup: Well-done to U! ... :thumbsup: & of course to Lucky,
who figured out what it took to make the Pez-dispenser work.  Smart dog.
.
.


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Which is exactly it's aim ...to confuse lol
> 
> *Jargon *-_language that is characterized by uncommon or pretentious vocabulary and convoluted syntax and is often vague in meaning. Special words or expressions used by a profession or group that are difficult for others to understand._
> 
> ...





Blitz said:


> I am sure that most who quote jargon read more than do.
> 
> I understand the jargon perfectly, which is why I translated it. I am not uneducated but I see no point in talking like a boring text book and when on a forum like this you are talking to people across a huge range of educational skills and it is, in my opinion, arrogant as well as pointless, to talk in a way that will not be understood by a lot and will annoy or bore a lot more. I think the art of being able to put over your point is to do it in a way that will be understood by your audience, not either overawe or annoy them.
> 
> I can honestly say that if I went to a talk/seminar/conference on any subject and someone started jargon babbling I would either fall asleep or walk out. It would not mean I could not understand it, it would mean I had no interest in what that person was saying as they so obviously would have no interest in their audience.


As a young trainee accountant I was often intimidated by a much older man who used jargon as a tool,My boss a lovely, clever and very wise man shared this with me...The word "jargon" can be traced to 14th century Old French, but the actual origin is unknown. Jargon is derived from the fourteenth century term for twittering or warbling of birds, which in turn has the root garg from which also stem such words as gargle, and gurgle.(Gurgle is also a term for baby talk). The original meaning was to make a twittering noise or sound,... I have often remembered this when a certain type resort to jargon .


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I have never previously owned a dog I would have classed as stubborn, but Duke can be.

If I want to go one way and he wants to go the other he will drop his weight and refuse to move, using the flexi lead I will walk towards him to get a better leverage to pull him and he will crawl away in the direction he wants to go.

There are loads of instances, but over the years we have managed to reduced this problem.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

When my dogs reach about the age of 5 and we have settled to a happy companionable existence, I often let them chose the routes of our walks. For various reasons it's sometimes it's not possible to go the route they want and this is the result 

*video*


Not disobedience and I find it amusing rather than aggravating or challenging.
I call it stubborn or cheeky  
What would you call it?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> When my dogs reach about the age of 5 and we have settled to a happy companionable existence, I often let them chose the routes of our walks. For various reasons it's sometimes it's not possible to go the route they want and this is the result
> 
> *video*
> 
> ...


I call it you letting them chose the route of their walk?


----------



## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

rona said:


> Not disobedience and I find it amusing rather than aggravating or challenging.
> I call it stubborn or cheeky
> What would you call it?


I have no idea and I am not even going to attempt to label the behaviour but my Black lab does the same thing ... in fact that could be her except that she sits 

It's when we've been across the fields for a walk and are heading back to the gate which means home-time. I will be walking down the hill totally unaware that some 200 yards back my Lab has stopped and is sitting beautifully upright and staring right at me. I get to the gate, bring the others close and go to open it. And still she doesn't move. It's not a (even variably) rewarded behaviour in that I have never gone back to her or continued the walk. It normally takes another call and a roll of the eyes (mine!) to get her moving ....then she calmly trots (not runs!) down the hill, through the gate and off towards home. It's not every time ...it's most usually when we haven't had a long a walk as usual!

And this is a dog who is one of the most highly trained dogs I've owned lol :laugh:

J


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

*Jargon* is actually excessively-technical or obfuscating terminology.

The terms used in dog-training or any behavior application / modification are meant to clarify, not confuse.

There's no point in telling an 8-YO that we're going to use *differential reinforcement* & a *random
schedule of rewards* to teach her or his puppy / cat / horse / rabbit / ____ some cued behaviors, manners,
or husbandry behaviors.

But i *can* tell that child, _"We're gonna catch Max doing what we want, & give him something really nice,
so he'll do it again & again. Then we'll teach him a name for that, & he can do it when we ask for it."_

Or, _"We're gonna teach Thumper to relax & feel safe when U pick her up, so she won't kick & scratch U."_

Or, _"We're gonna teach Ur pony to come when called, pick up her feet, for cleaning, & put her own halter
or bridle on, with her head down so U can reach - U just buckle it."_

Yes, there are simpler ways of expressing it, but there's no simple BRIEF way to explain many terms.

*Classical conditioning* is straightforward as a process, pairing X with Y to create emotional assoc-
iations, but explaining it takes more than the 2 multi-syllable words. If U're a teen or adult of normal intel-
ligence, there's no reason to avoid every term in behavior science, & many good reasons to learn some.

H***, soccer, baseball, or other sports fans & hobbyists of every sort learn plenty of terms specific to their
favorite activities; purl a stitch, walk a batter, 3rd down, hotwalker, bowed tendon, perfect game, etc.

I think APOs are perfectly capable of learning to use *submissive urination* or *stress signal* correctly, 
& that such terms actually help their understanding; it's easier to discuss or explain behavior, IME,
when U've got a vocabulary that lets U do so succinctly*.
.
.
.
*: does anyone need a definition of "succinct"?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I have no idea and I am not even going to attempt to label the behaviour but my Black lab does the same thing ... in fact that could be her except that she sits
> 
> It's when we've been across the fields for a walk and are heading back to the gate which means home-time. I will be walking down the hill totally unaware that some 200 yards back my Lab has stopped and is sitting beautifully upright and staring right at me. I get to the gate, bring the others close and go to open it. And still she doesn't move. It's not a (even variably) rewarded behaviour in that I have never gone back to her or continued the walk. It normally takes another call and a roll of the eyes (mine!) to get her moving ....then she calmly trots (not runs!) down the hill, through the gate and off towards home. It's not every time ...it's most usually when we haven't had a long a walk as usual!
> 
> ...


I love a dog with character


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Meezey said:


> I call it you letting them chose the route of their walk?





Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I have no idea and I am not even going to attempt to label the behaviour but my Black lab does the same thing ... in fact that could be her except that she sits
> 
> It's when we've been across the fields for a walk and are heading back to the gate which means home-time. I will be walking down the hill totally unaware that some 200 yards back my Lab has stopped and is sitting beautifully upright and staring right at me. I get to the gate, bring the others close and go to open it. And still she doesn't move. It's not a (even variably) rewarded behaviour in that I have never gone back to her or continued the walk. It normally takes another call and a roll of the eyes (mine!) to get her moving ....then she calmly trots (not runs!) down the hill, through the gate and off towards home. It's not every time ...it's most usually when we haven't had a long a walk as usual!
> 
> ...


The gentleman walking down the path is ex military with many years of skilled map reading behind him. Our other friends have all learnt to take no notice of him!!Most of us prefer to ask Compass, he is usually correct


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

rona said:


> When my dogs have settled to a happy companionable existence, I often let them chose the routes of our walks.....sometimes it's not possible to go the route they want
> 
> *video*
> 
> ...


Zara and Oscar both sometimes refuse to go in a direction or along a route we would much prefer them to go rather than the one they are adamant to continue along. 
Should we have differing opinions then the customary sit in and lie down usually ensues. 
We don't call it disobedience either and neither do we call it stuck between cues or poorly motivated. 
Zara and Oscar have minds of their own and use them to the best of their abilities without angering or frustrating us.

Sometimes we seem to have a desire to reduce great things to a lesser state so that our understanding is better able to grasp the behaviour.:sneaky2:


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Zaros said:


> Zara and Oscar both sometimes refuse to go in a direction or along a route we would much prefer them to go rather than the one they are adamant to continue along.
> Should we have differing opinions then the customary sit in and lie down usually ensues.
> We don't call it disobedience either and neither do we call it stuck between cues or poorly motivated.
> Zara and Oscar have minds of their own and use them to the best of their abilities without angering or frustrating us.
> ...


Oh my............someone who understands  :thumbsup:


----------



## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Zara and Oscar both sometimes refuse to go in a direction or along a route we would much prefer them to go rather than the one they are adamant to continue along.
> Should we have differing opinions then the customary sit in and lie down usually ensues.
> We don't call it disobedience either and neither do we call it stuck between cues or poorly motivated.
> Zara and Oscar have minds of their own and use them to the best of their abilities without angering or frustrating us.
> ...


Nail on the head



rona said:


> Oh my............someone who understands  :thumbsup:


Second that.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

So what do people do when their dog lies down and refuses to budge because you want or need to go a different way to what s/he wants? 

And personally if my dog wants to go a specific way I think he's just more motivated to go that way for some reason (water to play in or a strong association with other dogs are two that make Spen want to go specific ways), not that he's being stubborn about going a different way


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> So what do people do when their dog lies down and refuses to budge because you want or need to go a different way to what s/he wants?
> 
> And personally if my dog wants to go a specific way I think he's just more motivated to go that way for some reason (water to play in or a strong association with other dogs are two that make Spen want to go specific ways), not that he's being stubborn about going a different way


All dogs are different


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

rona said:


> All dogs are different


Well obviously  But I sincerely doubt a dog thinks "well I'm not going that way on principle" or anything along those lines. If they want to go/don't want to go a certain way there must be a reason for it, they're not just being awkward about it.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well obviously  But I sincerely doubt a dog thinks "well I'm not going that way on principle" or anything along those lines. If they want to go/don't want to go a certain way there must be a reason for it, they're not just being awkward about it.


See I think they can sometimes just be awkward. Not usually younger dogs but certainly some of the oldies. Alfie sometimes acts like a football player and does a dummy run 

If they have the capacity to think that they want to go a particular way, why can they not work out that when they display a certain behaviour they get a reaction, and if they are capable of that why not stubbornness( as a reaction rather than a thought process) ?
That isn't disobedience or even lack of training, it's allowing a dog to develop quirks 

Like I said, I think many underestimate dogs.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Twice my dog has refused to move for me whilst out. Once we are on holiday on a country lane that had a sharp bend. He had heard the van that was coming and knew that car noise meant going on the verge. It meant we had time to get out of the way as it was going far too fast. The other time it was night and he didn't want to walk up the country lane. I tried a few times, but he just kept refusing so I gave up. A man came walking along soon after and he must have heard him. As a result I'd never think of him as 'stubborn' for not walking where I want him to.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

If you say a dog can't make a decision about anything without having a motivator and hasn't the capacity to do for no other reason than that's what they want. 

Can you explain why a dog has the capacity and option to say no to training? I've been told 100s of times on this very forum that dogs have done so.
Surely that is an action without motivation?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Stubborn
Collins English Dictionary | Always Free Online

"refusing to comply, agree, or give in; obstinate"

Stubborn
stubborn: definition of stubborn in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

"Having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude *or* position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so:"

Surely a dog refusing to continue training despite treats and other motivators could be classed as stubborn under these criteria? Not that I would ever apply it in those circumstances but just from the pure wording, that's what it implies? 

Can you tell that I'm fascinated why some have got so uptight about the use of a descriptive word?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> Stubborn
> Collins English Dictionary | Always Free Online
> 
> ""Having or showing dogged determination not to change ones attitude *or* position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so:"
> ...


A dog may refuse to continue training (despite treats and other motivators) because it is satiated.

Even people fail to continue to do something once satiation point has been reached. 

So when you are no longer hungry, when you no longer need the money, when your "seeking" has been satisifed, etc etc you do not continue to (insert relevant activity).

This is not stubborness, it is simply satiety.

It is a basic building block of training and how people and animals learn.

Exel-erated Learning and How Dogs Learn are just two examples of books where this simple concept is explained.

People continue to fail to realise that is the DOG that decides what is motivating, not the owner.

They, like us, are motivated towards (and away) from different things.

You could not motivate me by offering me more money to work the weekend, but you could motivate me to work the weekend if you gave me more time off.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

So a dog has the brain power to decide whether he's motivated by something ot not, but apparently doesn't have the brain power to be stubborn?

I think dogs are far cleverer than we give them credit for.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Ah, so a dog needs brain power to be stubborn?

Has anyone posted that a dog does not havee the brain power to be stubborn?

Not seen any that allude to that, perhaps that is another one that I have missed.

Dogs are much cleverer than a lot of people (in my experience) and do what works, they do not waste their time in doing things that do not work, or trying to build a case to support their views.

Unlike people.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Ah, so a dog needs brain power to be stubborn?
> 
> *Has anyone posted that a dog does not havee the brain power to be stubborn*?
> 
> ...


Oh they have, that's what all this is about


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> Oh they have, that's what all this is about


That is not what I inferred from posts.

Nothing to do with "brain power" (are there nobel prizes for stubborness)? 

Everything to do with there is no payback for a dog being stubborn and nobody (yet) has demonstrated that dogs do possess this capacity.

Of course that does not prevent people interpreting some observable behaviour as "being stubborn" but I have yet to come across it in a dog myself.

No doubt science at some point will demonstrate whether or not it does feature in a dog's make up.

It has not as yet.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> A dog may refuse to continue training (despite treats and other motivators) because it is satiated.
> 
> *Even people fail to continue to do something once satiation point has been reached*.
> 
> ...


As I said, I wouldn't personally call it stubbornness.

I don't believe that either some dogs or humans all have control to stop when asked to do something. Particularly those of the younger type 

Satiation | Define Satiation at Dictionary.com

"to supply with anything to excess, so as to disgust or *weary*; surfeit." 

and surfeit

surfeit: definition of surfeit in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)
"Cause (someone) to desire no more of something as a result of having consumed or done it to excess:"


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> As I said, I wouldn't personally call it stubbornness.
> 
> I don't believe that either some dogs or humans all have control to stop when asked to do something. Particularly those of the younger type
> 
> ...


Pigging out is a totally different thing to satiation.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Pigging out is a totally different thing to satiation.


I wasn't thinking of food necessarily. There's plenty that both humans and dogs do way past what is normal or even sensible. 
How do you actually know that a dog is stopping for that reason?


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

rona said:


> All dogs are different


Ok so if you won't answer Sarah's question I will ask a different one.

To veryone who thinks a dog does have the capacity to be stubborn.

Why do you think your dog is being stubborn?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> Ok so if you won't answer Sarah's question I will ask a different one.
> 
> To veryone who thinks a dog does have the capacity to be stubborn.
> 
> Why do you think your dog is being stubborn?


Right back at you, why do you believe a dog could never have the capacity to be stubborn?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Here's a little example of Alfie being stubborn at times and only doing what he wants to at times. 

(I have to say all in all he is a really well behaved dog and lovely to every person and animal he meets)

Before going for a walk I will ask him to do a wee in the garden first.

He sometimes doesn't want to and wants to get on with his walk and 'chats' to himself when asked. He makes these humm humm noises.

So he runs all around the garden and comes back to me without doing a wee and I then ask him again to do wees and here's what he will do. Run up to where he goes and cocks his leg and looks right at me, but still withholds doing a wee. He fakes doing a wee. He tries to trick me into thinking he has actually done one to go for a walk but he doesn't go and yet he needs to and he can always summon up some on his walks, but he chooses not to.

There's many, many examples when he is stubborn, he even moans about being asked to sit if he doesn't want to.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> Right back at you, why do you believe a dog could never have the capacity to be stubborn?


I never have said and never will say NEVER,. 

I have stated several times that it is not in the interests of them to be stubborn, or pig headed etc etc.

They do what works.

In the context of this thread.

Dogs do not do stuff JUST to be stubborn (although it is mightly convenient for owners to think so rather than go look in the mirror).

They do stuff because it is often in their interests to in various ways.

Ask anyone who has a real working dog (rather than one that is just for sport) whether their dogs are stubborn or not.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

rona said:


> I wasn't thinking of food necessarily. There's plenty that both humans and dogs do way past what is normal or even sensible.
> How do you actually know that a dog is stopping for that reason?


That is not stubborness that is being an adrenaline junkie eg toys.

It is all about dopamin and endorphins.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Isn't it funny how stubborn some owners can be when trying to prove that their dogs are indeed stubborn :lol:


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Aren't we just getting into semantics here?

People chose the best word to fit the situation, I agree that a lot of people use 'stubborn' as an excuse for their dog's behaviour (by that I mean they've not trained/proofed a behaviour properly etc, so the dog chooses to perform one for which they are more motivated at that time).

I don't think dogs choose to be stubborn, but they can definitely choose to do a different behaviour, even though you (*think* you) have to correct motivator for them to perform the behaviour you want. 

It's just part of the fun of having dogs isn't it? I'd rather have a dog that is a bit of a character and doesn't always do as it's told, that one that does anything you say whenever, wherever, whatever the situation (although it would definitely be nice sometimes!!!).

I'll admit to using the word 'stubborn' to describe my dog sometimes, but I know that I'm probably the reason she's choosing to not do what I ask, even though she knows very well what it is I want. (I wouldn't use it to describe a dog not performing a behaviour it doesn't know). We just use the word that best fits the situation, and if a dog is choosing to do something other that what you want, despite your motivators (whatever they may be), why not describe it as stubborn? As long as you know that the dog is doing it for a reason, why does it matter what word you use to describe it? Some would call it independent thinking, some naughtiness, some being a little sh!t, but do we really know what's going on in that little fluffy head? Not always....


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> Ok so if you won't answer Sarah's question I will ask a different one.
> 
> To veryone who thinks a dog does have the capacity to be stubborn.
> 
> Why do you think your dog is being stubborn?


Because they don't want to do something *or* they want to do something else Isn't that basically the definition of stubborn anyway? 

here you go
"refusing to comply, agree, or give in"

"Having or showing dogged determination not to change ones attitude or position on something, especially in spite of good reasons to do so:"


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> That is not stubborness that is being an adrenaline junkie eg toys.
> 
> It is all about dopamin and endorphins.


But some things aren't done with adrenaline.

I'm going to have to bow out of this thread for a while, I'm too hot and my (tiny) brain isn't functioning


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> Isn't it funny how stubborn some owners can be when trying to prove that their dogs are indeed stubborn :lol:


It's just a descriptive word not a condition


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> Isn't it funny how stubborn some owners can be when trying to prove that their dogs are indeed stubborn :lol:


See again this is a case where stubborn doesn't come in to it, this is a case of some people trolling and thinking it's fun to do so, then back stabbing the people they are trolling in another thread, not all trolls are new members..

This is a case of snake in the grass lol


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> See again this is a case where stubborn doesn't come in to it, this is a case of some people trolling and thinking it's fun to do so, then back stabbing the people they are trolling in another thread, not all trolls are new members..
> 
> This is a case of snake in the grass lol


Trolling? 

A question was asked and people have different views, how is that trolling?

Are the people who do not agree with the view of the OP not allowed to answer the question then? The people who do not believe dogs can be stubborn are posting as much as those who believe they can be.

I don't see having an opinion through watching our own dogs as trolling.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> Trolling?
> 
> A question was asked and people have different views, how is that trolling?
> 
> ...


That's me. I'm the Troll


----------



## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

Meezey said:


> See again this is a case where stubborn doesn't come in to it, this is a case of some people trolling and thinking it's fun to do so, then* back stabbing the people they are trolling in another thread*, not all trolls are new members..
> 
> This is a case of snake in the grass lol


Wow I didn't think stuff like that was allowed on PF and it's pretty morally questionable not the behaviour of a nice simple straight forward person at all.

Maybe they have a sad and challenging life and need to get the attention where they can.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Trolling?
> 
> A question was asked and people have different views, how is that trolling?
> 
> ...


I didn't mean you, but when certain people just carry on a thread to mock people and then run off like a child making a thread and giggling to others about how they are in fact only contributing to wind others up I call that trolling, so that includes you in being mocked as you have been contributing to the thread. Might amuse them, but I find it pretty insulting to members who are contributing to a thread and discussion.

Oh and might just add that it is not just this thread they are doing it in.

So feel free to comment I like debate, but would rather you be aware that said person, might just be all nicey nice to you, but then go off and slag you behind your back in another thread.................


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> *Trolling? *
> 
> A question was asked and people have different views, how is that trolling?
> 
> ...


Yes  take a look, might be in the name of a perverse idea of fun but trolling none the less http://www.petforums.co.uk/1063741641-post4.html

Seen as we are using the dictionary to define things have a look at this, Urban Dictionary: trolling particularly section 2 

And another definition of stubborn which is the one I 'think' we are arguing against;

*stubborn (ˈstʌb ərn)

adj.
1. unreasonably or perversely obstinate; unyielding. 
*

this is the one people use to the detriment of their own relationship with their dog, this is the definition of stubborn I see as dogs just cannot do.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

GingerRogers said:


> Yes  take a look, might be in the name of a perverse idea of fun but trolling none the less http://www.petforums.co.uk/1063741641-post4.html
> 
> Seen as we are using the dictionary to define things have a look at this, Urban Dictionary: trolling particularly section 2
> 
> ...


.................

not worth the effort


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

rona said:


> Out of context as per
> So you can read everyones mind now as well as dogs


And here is a perfect example of the trolling..............


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## dogtrainingcambridge (May 19, 2014)

As my personal views, i don't believe on that.. 

Thank you


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Thank you 
Sarah1983 and Smokeybear for actually conversing with me without becoming defensive and insulting.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I haven't read all this thread... as its 21 pages!

I wouldn't say Io is stubborn, shes just a nauuuuuuughty girl 

You ask her to sit and stay... she runs towards you.

You ask her to put the sock down... she runs out the house with it 

But aye shes only 11 months


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

As I think I'm on Rona's ignore list the one she is so happy to post about and mock people in please someone feel free to quote me.

Rona don't now act the victim, you started a thread in General to mock people, you chose to have a laugh and joke about how you had people on ignore, and found it amusing that you were winding people up on this thread, I couldn't give a fiddlers, but I find it bloody insulting and childish to others that a grown woman would do that, you seem to have a habit of being all nice and innocent to people and then turning on them because they don't agree with you.

You are the only one in this thread who has been insulting by starting the other thread. People have disagreed on the thread, they do in every thread on the forum, what they don't do is start another thread on the same forum to take the p out of people.. 


You my dear have been trolling.. Like it or not you have and you know you have..........


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> I haven't read all this thread... as its 21 pages!
> 
> I wouldn't say Io is stubborn, shes just a nauuuuuuughty girl
> 
> ...


Socks are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much fun to give up lol


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Meezey said:


> Socks are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much fun to give up lol


She does make me laugh!

She grabs a dirty sock so I say 'Io put that down' and she then gives a cheeky face and runs off into the garden 

I was having a bath yesterday and wondered why Io was lying down with a smile on her face - I noticed that the socks on the bathroom floor were missing and then saw them outside in the garden - I didn't even notice her take them :lol:


----------



## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> She does make me laugh!
> 
> She grabs a dirty sock so I say 'Io put that down' and she then gives a cheeky face and runs off into the garden
> 
> I was having a bath yesterday and wondered why Io was lying down with a smile on her face - I noticed that the socks on the bathroom floor were missing and then saw them outside in the garden - I didn't even notice her take them :lol:


Cian hides things under his chin, but has a " I'm hiding something" face that gives him away every time


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I describe Alfie as stubborn when he wont poo in the wet.

I can be standing outside in the rain for 45 mins sometimes and he just wont go for whatever reason.

Im sure he has his reasons, but its still what i class as a stubborn act.

Probably a poor example.


----------



## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

rona said:


> Out of context as per
> So you can read everyones mind now as well as dogs


At risk of quoting you out of context, seen as you have edited your response now I cannot possibly tell,  why was it out of context and how does it relate to my ability to read minds.

It was just an example of where you openly admitted you got fun from baiting people, I only linked to your post but the thread link was there at the top of the page for all to read through should have so little to do today. All in context and in answer to EV's post.



rona said:


> Thank you
> Sarah1983 and Smokeybear for actually conversing with me without becoming defensive and insulting.


I have not seen anyone get defensive at all & as for insulting the only insulting going on is to the dogs intelligence.



Meezey said:


> As I think I'm on Rona's ignore list the one she is so happy to post about and mock people in please someone feel free to quote me.
> 
> Rona don't now act the victim, you started a thread in General to mock people, you chose to have a laugh and joke about how you had people on ignore, and found it amusing that you were winding people up on this thread, I couldn't give a fiddlers, but I find it bloody insulting and childish to others that a grown woman would do that, you seem to have a habit of being all nice and innocent to people and then turning on them because they don't agree with you.
> 
> ...


:thumbup1:


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

It's so much easier to blame the dog, and call it 'stubborn' or 'hard headed' rather than an owner face up to the fact they either haven't trained a cue properly, or upped the training of the cue around a slow escalation of distraction or 'proofed' it. 

To call your dog 'stubborn' is just lazy and a 'get out' clause so people don't have to bother to train things.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2014)

This is what I believe about the topic: According to many studies on animal behavior, dogs (and many other animals) do feel and communicate much more than we have believed to be possible. Individual differences vary too a lot, even within same breed. No one here has denied that either, so it must be true. :thumbup1: When and if that is so, I am sure that there exist lots of dogs, who then do share many emotions with us, including stubborness. 

I also believe that the more time you spend wih your dog, the more he/she understands you, and shares your emotions. I also believe (now this is just my opinion you can agree or disagree with) that dog´s can even learn to "feel" more, if the circumstances are right. (i.e. little stress, lots of stimulation and happiness, and respect for dog´s natural behavior and communication). 

Hence, as a conclusion, I believe that some dogs can be more stubborn (or sensitive, or willing to be led, or willing to lead etc. ) than others. But it would be difficult to say that all dogs are stubborn or no dog is. Emotions can be detected also in dog-to-dog/animal situations, after all other dogs matter often much more for our dogs than we. That is natural too. 

Naturally I agree that for any sensible and self respecting dog the only reason for obeying us is to get a reward. For some simple praise will do, for others it has to pretty hard cash (= meat), and for others, sometimes, none of these matter. And I do confess that it is not easy to communicate what you really mean often and mostly the failure for my dog to do as being asked lies in my incabability to communicate and reward the dog properly. Also there can be also physical reasons (tummy upsets, feeling unwell etc) I might not aware of.

But still, some dogs, sometimes are just stubborn. Mine too.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

Hounds are independent thinkers and have one eye on you and one eye on the world around them. Not sure it is stubbornness it's just a different type of dog. 
You can still train them but results may vary.
They do have a determination about them without which they would loose concentration when tracking. Often this means their behaviour has equal determination.
So your dog might be a bit upset when you go out, mine will ram its head in the door until someone opens it lie dramatically in the way of the door and won't move unless I physically move her. I can coax her away with food but this kind of behaviour is common for bassets. 
They are not stupid, annoyingly clever (dangerous mixed with determination!) so will problem solve like move a chair to the counter to climb up and pinch a loaf of bread. I may never know how she managed to take an open milk bottle off the counter and drinking it without spilling it on the couch. :frown2:
Luckily nuisance barking, pestering for the ball/frisbee and getting woken up at 6am isn't something you hear very often from a basset owners either but maybe we train them all that way


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Hanwombat said:


> She does make me laugh!
> 
> She grabs a dirty sock so I say 'Io put that down' and she then gives a cheeky face and runs off into the garden
> 
> I was having a bath yesterday and wondered why Io was lying down with a smile on her face - I noticed that the socks on the bathroom floor were missing and then saw them outside in the garden - I didn't even notice her take them :lol:


Cash strangely loves stealing my socks to lick! Seriously I hear him in the background going on and on and on, and I end up picking a sopping wet sock up and throwing it in the washing machine!


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2014)

rona said:


> Oh my............someone who understands  :thumbsup:


Lets just clarify something. Just because someone doesnt agree with what youre saying, doesnt mean they lack understanding. One can understand perfectly what is being said and simply not agree with it.

I think plenty of us are familiar with the many behaviors owners describe as stubborn, we just dont agree on the definition of the behavior.

While I do agree that we way underestimate dogs, and that they are far more complex than we give them credit for, I dont think its wise to fill that void with human motivators for dog behavior. 
A while back on this thread I asked what purpose would being stubborn serve a dog. I just dont think dogs do stubborn. Determined, yes. Responding unreliably to poor training, absolutely. Conflicted in a relationship that could use some work, oh yeah... But stubborn in the human sense? Sorry, I just dont see it, and not because I havent met the right dog, not because I dont get it, but simply because Im trying hard not to blanket human motivations over dog behavior.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2014)

Just to add one more thing 
I think what strikes me in these conversations is how sure so many of us are, how convicted. I spent a long day in training today (not dog related) and the same thing popped up. Us humans really resist change, but change is the only way towards growth.

When we look at a dogs behavior and slap a label on it like stubborn, it tends to inhibit growth (tends to, not always). By saying the dog is being stubborn we close a lot of doors and eliminate a lot of options for us to learn something new and for the relationship to grow.

I think Susan Garret says it best in her blog about the lessons she learned from Buzz who recently passed. The whole thing is a great read, but the last bit resonates in this conversation:


> LESSON NUMBER FIVE:
> My last powerful lesson I learned from Buzzy is that growth requires vulnerability. None of us is expected to know it all, so drop the front and accept that you are only human. We need to allow ourselves the luxury of admitting that we may be incorrect. If we get stuck on what we think we know, we can fall victim to believing our dog isnt learning because of something that is different or wrong with HIM rather than something missing in US. Without vulnerability as a dog trainer, it becomes impossible to have any major break through with our own understanding. We become that trainer that does the same thing with every dog, complains about the same shortcomings without considering that the solution is through YOU the trainer and not with the dog! When you label your dog as stubborn or stupid or a bar knocker, you have instantly limited their potential the dogs future has been defined.
> 
> Be vulnerable. Consider yourself as the source of your dogs struggles, that you have challenges that require more knowledge. That should spark a hunger for education, for better mechanics or for more clarity in your choices for your dog.
> ...


Five Lessons I Learned From One Great Dog | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Just to add one more thing
> I think what strikes me in these conversations is how sure so many of us are, how convicted. I spent a long day in training today (not dog related) and the same thing popped up. Us humans really resist change, but change is the only way towards growth.
> 
> When we look at a dogs behavior and slap a label on it like stubborn, it tends to inhibit growth (tends to, not always). By saying the dog is being stubborn we close a lot of doors and eliminate a lot of options for us to learn something new and for the relationship to grow.
> ...


And that is it in a but shell for me


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Just to add one more thing
> Us humans really resist change, but change is the only way towards growth.


Nail on head :cornut:

Blob swigging your way :thumbup1:


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Surely labelling a dog stubborn is only an issue if that means that you then either persist in doing something that's not working or give up altogether?

Like I said pages ago, I call Brock stubborn...I suspect persistent or tenacious is probably a better word for what I mean, but I like stubborn better, but then I don't necessarily see stubborn as a negative trait.

But what that means is that I know certain approaches don't work with him and I have to find better ones or better motivators, I don't see that that's a bad thing, so surely using the word stubborn isn't an issue? 

Surely it's only an issue if you're going, nah he won't do that he's too stubborn - not if you're going, he can be a bit stubborn about that, I'm going to do x y z and see if that works for him better?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

tabulahrasa said:


> Surely labelling a dog stubborn is only an issue if that means that you then either persist in doing something that's not working or give up altogether?
> 
> Like I said pages ago, I call Brock stubborn...I suspect persistent or tenacious is probably a better word for what I mean, but I like stubborn better, but then I don't necessarily see stubborn as a negative trait.
> 
> ...


Totally...it kinda seems like people are saying if you label your dog stubborn it means youv given up on bad behaviour and live with it.

Buster is how I would describe as stubborn, but he's not poorly behaved. I work with his personality, and it works for us. Maybe stubborn isnt always the right word, but its one people are familiar with and most people know what you mean when you say it.

I have had trainers describe buster as stubborn. But its never been an issue.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

rona said:


> *stubborn*
> Collins English Dictionary | Always Free Online
> 
> "refusing to comply, agree, or give in; obstinate"
> ...


i would say that per either of those definitions, Rona, U can be accurately described as "stubborn". 

U've been given good reasons to use alternative descriptors, among them that dogs don't reason as humans do,
therefore don't HAVE intellectual 'positions'; humans have logic, dogs only have behavioral consequences to use
as clues on which actions are "better" for the dog, i-e, more likely to result in good consequences than bad.

There is also the considerable taint of deliberate & conscious choice that adheres to *stubborn* - they are
"doing this on purpose", it's disobedience, rebellious, "dominance" / dumbinance, etc. It's willful.

In Ur case, Ur adherence to the term is indeed, willful, reasoned, deliberate, & conscious - ergo, stubborn.
The dogs are not - as they have will, but cannot reason & are not capable of metathought, so are not in
the larger sense, conscious - yes, they are individuals, sentient, etc, but can't think about thoughts.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> "dogs don't reason as humans do,
> therefore don't HAVE intellectual 'positions'; humans have logic, dogs only have behavioral consequences to use
> as clues on which actions are "better" for the dog, i-e, more likely to result in good consequences than bad.
> 
> The dogs are not - as they have will, but cannot reason & are not capable of metathought, so are not inthe larger sense, conscious - yes, they are individuals, sentient, etc, but can't think about thoughts.


And may I ask how do you _know _that? I mean science has started to prove that most of our conceptions are what animals are able to feel, think and communicate, and always the end result of the evidence is that "we underestimate animals´ abilities". Animals form friendships, relate to their families, play, feel sorrow, happiness etc.

Animals are not stupid either. Stupid animals do not survive. For example have you ever tried to hunt anything on your own? Or in a group? If you have not experienced hunting, try it but without weapons or traps or ask a hunter how much thinking is needed in order to catch an animal without a weapon or a trap. (and I do not mean fox hunting, which is not hunting, it's just a tea party on horse back ending with a slaughter for human entertainment. )


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

MrsZee said:


> And may I ask how do you _know _that?
> I mean science has started to prove that most of our conceptions are what animals are able to feel, think and communicate, and always the end result of the evidence is that "we underestimate animals' abilities". Animals form friendships, relate to their families, play, feel sorrow, happiness etc.
> 
> Animals are not stupid either. Stupid animals do not survive.
> ...


Mrs Zee,
i don't know U, & given this extremely hostile first-introduction, i have no idea why U seem so angry
with me. There are innumerable studies on many nonhuman species, not only dogs, that researched their
cognitive abilities. Dog-cognition has been an increasingly-hot research topic for over a decade, now -
& *i've posted as many of those new studies, with links to the abstract or when available, the papers
in full, on the Dog Behavior & Training sub-forum.*

I never said nonhumans are stupid; in fact, i think many dog-owners underestimate their dogs profoundly,
& do them a great disservice by assuming they can't learn thus-&-so. But attributing nonexistent powers to them
does not do dogs any favors, either. Claiming that dogs understand English, for instance, is not only not true,
but makes the dog responsible for any failure to comprehend & comply with some instructions from the owner
or handler - which is IMO patently unfair.

I have no idea what my past experience or lack of experience in hunting might have to do with dogs,
or humans labeling dogs as 'stubborn' individuals, or terming their behavior 'stubborn'. 

I'm familiar with horses, foxhounds & other scenthounds, but i've never been foxhunting in my life -
nor is it something that interests me. I concur with Oscar Wilde's apt description.


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## Margelli (Jun 23, 2014)

I got a ruby blob thing for my one comment on here, nice!  I am going to assume its a sign of passionate love?:cornut:


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

Do you know the other thread makes me so sad, the ridiculing of people who are trying their best to understand and do right by dogs is downright unnecessary  disagree by all means that's what this thread is about, the debate, but to take over another thread and make downright personal insults to people who at the end of the day really are coming from the same place I think, deep love and passion in the care of our canine companions, is an attitude which I find rather stinky, mean spirited and pointless, I can only imagine that everyone has had a bad a week .

I am posting this here because I dont even want to get involved in the other thread the b'attitude really does sadden me. More than this................

All I (and I believe the same goes for most of the other 'inexperienced know alls' before it got taken over by perversity) was trying to relay was that 'we don't believe' dogs are 'intentionally and without reason' stubborn 'just for the sake of it'. I know people who are, proper cut your nose off stubborn, inspite, but not dogs, there is always a reason behind a dogs behavior, use it as a term of endearment by all means but not as a genuine heartfelt believed in description. That is not saying that others are bad owners nor dogs stupid  but people had to take over with semantics for their own giggle and so it did descend into an argument for arguments sake :frown2:

'I' do believe those people who actually excuse behaviors by such are doing their dogs a huge disfavour. There is always a reason and if you so choose to root that out you can manage the behaviour should you so wish, if you dont wish to then its your choice and doesn't make you a bad owner but its still not the dogs 'stubbornness' thats continuing it. Not recognizing that and continuing to blame the dog is IMO the wrongdoing.

JC  I have the 'stubbornest' little terrier in the world  ie I struggle to find the ruddy thing that will motivate her, in so many situations, it doesnt make me a bad trainer or owner, just a bit less good than others might be :001_huh: possibly  and it doesn't mean I think she has no emotion nor feeling, nor that I want her to be an automaton. I am just trusting in the things I have learnt which make the most sense in an attempt to do my very best but there is no way I am going to blame her for my shortcomings.

I find it sad that that has reduced people to the point of needing to scorn and scoff and insult.


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

I've not read all 23 pages of this thread, it's a bit much at this time of night. But I just wanted to say that I have a stubborn dog. Jet is usually a well behaved dog, but there are times when he is downright stubborn. For instance, he will not go out in the rain, he knows what I want from him, he fully understands what I'm asking him to do when I'm stood there holding the lead, but he won't budge. There are times when he just refuses to go out in the garden at night, he knows exactly what I want, but he's too comfortable or warm or whatever and he will not move. 

I know he understands, coz he normally does those things without any problem, but I can tell by the look on his face that he's just being stubborn. It's nothing to do with him not being trained, he is. It's not that I'm a bad owner, I'm not. I just happen to have a dog with character, who thinks for himself sometimes, and I have no problem with that at all.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Rona U've been given good reasons to use alternative descriptors


Words resonant of a courtroom......:laugh:



leashedForLife said:


> Mrs Zee,
> i don't know U, & given this extremely hostile first-introduction, i have no idea why U seem so angry


I don't know what you've been reading but I for one certainly deducted no hostility or anger in MrsZee's post.:confused1:

In fact the rht honourable member began their submission with an evident courtesy.

May I ask?

Surely that's a politeness. :001_smile:


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

GingerRogers said:


> I find it sad that that has reduced people to the point of needing to scorn and scoff and insult.


I think you'll find divides were first established when someone labelled certain members/dog owners as lazy and bad and I personally find that to be more offensive and inappropriate than the evidently careless use of the word Stubborn.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Going to request this is shut. Disappointed with the playground tactics of some who should know better!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Closed for checking through


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