# Tips on classes to enter



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

I'm having a look at the show schedule for the show we're taking Jammy to, and I'm having a look at classes we can enter Jammy into.

When the show is held she will be 8 months and 20 days old, and she's neutered.

So as I understand it, she can be entered as a kitten (as she's under 9 months). But I wasn't sure if actually she should be entered in the neuter classes (as on the schedule I'm looking at it doesn't specify the age of a neuter, just cat and kitten).

Any help appreciated!

I'm also looking at getting CK in as exhibition - can you find out who typically does the critique for this? I was looking at the judges and one of the judges for the tonk (and other classes) is an ex-tonk breeder, so figured she might be good at helping to assess his colour!


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Psygon said:


> So as I understand it, she can be entered as a kitten (as she's under 9 months). But I wasn't sure if actually she should be entered in the neuter classes (as on the schedule I'm looking at it doesn't specify the age of a neuter, just cat and kitten).


Any cat under the age of 9 calendar months is shown in the kitten class. Whether it is neutered or entire isn't a factor. The Adult and Neuter classes are for cats aged 9 calendar months old and over.



Psygon said:


> I'm also looking at getting CK in as exhibition - can you find out who typically does the critique for this?


​Exhibition classes are not judged and you will not get a critique for entering. You can ask judges to look and advise at the end of the show when all judging is complete.


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Tigermoon said:


> Any cat under the age of 9 calendar months is shown in the kitten class. Whether it is neutered or entire isn't a factor. The Adult and Neuter classes are for cats aged 9 calendar months old and over.
> ​Exhibition classes are not judged and you will not get a critique for entering. You can ask judges to look and advise at the end of the show when all judging is complete.


The schedule says they do a critique. It costs £5 more than the normal exhibition entry.


----------



## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

Psygon said:


> The schedule says they do a critique. It costs £5 more than the normal exhibition entry.


The rule is this

"Additionally, clubs may provide 'Exhibition with Critique' classes for cats of breeds with preliminary or full recognition only. Cats entered in these classes will be assessed by the person judging the 
corresponding breed class and a written critique will be provided on the day and submitted for publication with the show report after the show. The report is for feedback purposes only."

So whoever is judging the breed class at the show will write a critique on the cat.


----------



## Smuge (Feb 6, 2017)

Psygon said:


> I'm having a look at the show schedule for the Durham County Cat club and Northern County Cat Club show, that's in May. And I'm having a look at classes we can enter Jammy into.
> 
> When the show is held she will be 8 months and 20 days old, and she's neutered.
> 
> ...


We have our first show on Saturday, Tali is an adult and Ash and Gar are in the kitten class. I think all 3 have entered 3 or 4 classes.

But to be honest the whole thing made my head hurt, I texted Tali's breeder and she told me what classes to write down


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Make sure you enter Debutante and Maiden (any gender can enter these), you can only enter them once per section - once in kitten, once in adult, once in neuter. If you have entered the classes in kitten you can still enter them again when you move into neuter, but cannot enter them in neuter again. You can only enter them the first time you enter that section.

You can email the show manager ahead of time and explain that you're unsure of your cats colour so have put them on exhibition, would they mind arranging a judge of the breed to take a look and advise you on the correct colour class. I would pay the £5 when you send your entry in, and say that you've paid that assessment fee, even though it's for a slightly different thing.


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Sorry for the late replies, been away with work - but thank you for the advice folk!


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

What's the difference between title class and breed class? Can I enter both?

I have emailed Jammys breeder for help, but just waiting on a reply


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Title class is for a titled cat. Breed class is for untitled which is what you want at the moment. You will automatically enter Best of Breed without needing to list it on the form


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Thank you.

So do I just enter 1 main class like colour pointed tonkinese kitten, and then side classes?


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Psygon said:


> Thank you.
> 
> So do I just enter 1 main class like colour pointed tonkinese kitten, and then side classes?


Yes. And the age (under 9 months = kitten), colour & breed of your cat determines what the main class is. If the show has is using the new online entry you will be presented with the right breed class.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

You must specify she is neutered or she will not be in the right class.


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

I have filled her in as FN, she will be under 9 months at the show date so should be a kitten. 

The show doesn't have online entries, I wonder if I can look at a different show's online entry just to be absolutely sure... She is a lilac colour point so I assume it's colour pointed tonk kitten I enter 

Thanks again for all the help!


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Psygon said:


> I have filled her in as *FN, she will be under 9 months at the show date so should be a kitten.*
> She is a lilac colour point so I assume it's* colour pointed tonk kitten* I enter


Yes, all correct. There are only three options for tonks, full tonk, Burmese colour restriction and colour point. Check the slip you are given at vetting in to make sure it is correct. If you find a mistake in your entry in the catalogue, you have until the end of the show to notify the table without losing any awards.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Make sure you enter Debutante and Maiden side classes, you can only enter them at your first show (you can enter them again when you change section to neuter), they're usually a nice small class and a bit special as you will place well


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Make sure you enter Debutante and Maiden side classes, you can only enter them at your first show (you can enter them again when you change section to neuter), they're usually a nice small class and a bit special as you will place well


You can enter the Maiden at any show the cat qualifies as one, though it would be extraordinary for a cat to be shown and no longer qualify for Maiden: "Exhibits that have not won a First, Second or Third Prize in any _class_ at a show held under _GCCF_ Rules"

When the cat reaches 9 months and goes into the Neuter section it starts over, so you get another bite of the cherry at Debutante etc.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> You can enter the Maiden at any show the cat qualifies as one, though it would be extraordinary for a cat to be shown and no longer qualify for Maiden: "Exhibits that have not won a First, Second or Third Prize in any _class_ at a show held under _GCCF_ Rules"
> 
> When the cat reaches 9 months and goes into the Neuter section it starts over, so you get another bite of the cherry at Debutante etc.


This comment makes no sense, you're just repeating what I've said but incorrectly? Kittens will always come away with at least one placing in their first show, therefore cannot enter maiden again as they have won a placing.

I also said that the cat can be re-entered in the maiden and debutante classes once moved to the neuter section.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I can think of several reasons why a cat may not have a first second or third at its first show. The classes may be too large (admittedly that does not happen often nowadays but did when the class was first introduced) or the cat could have had all awards withheld, been wrong coloured, put in isolation by a vet or even disqualified. The exhibitor might have penned the cat before realising all the judges had been changed and consequently withdrawn it from competition. Some of these situations are extremely unlikely but not impossible, while others do happen.


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Maiden, Debutante and Limit seem very similar classes. It's a double show for two cat clubs, is it worth going for the maiden/debutante on both - or mixing it up with non-self, visitor, not-bred by exhibitor etc ?

My OH thinks we should only take Jammy to the show, he's worried how the older tonks will react to the whole thing, and he's probably right - so we wont be taking CK for exhibition. Will see how we get on with the Jam Bot.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Can you choose a different judge for every class? That is a good idea because it gives you an idea what they think for future shows.


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

ah yes, I think across the two shows I could do:

Maiden
Limit kitten
Debutante
Non-self kitten female

And I get 4 different judges, including one who is/was a tonk breeder. And to add, that would be 6 different judges as the two main breed classes are different again


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

For first show, even a double, I do maiden/debutante because things like breeders or non-breeders are always huge and you're up against older kittens. Visitor and radius tend to be small so I often do those too. There's always lots of competition when you get up to neuter so make the most of quieter classes in kittens.


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Jammy might be the oldest kitten, she'll be shy of 9 months old by about 10 days

and, oops, I'm wrong to be entering her in non-self though (i think heh)


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Non-self is tabby and colourpoint I'd imagine


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Psygon said:


> Jammy might be the oldest kitten, she'll be shy of 9 months old by about 10 days
> 
> and, oops, I'm wrong to be entering her in non-self though (i think heh)


If they are the shows I think they are, I might be inclined to try club classes if you are going to join them. The miscellaneous classes are British, Foreign, Burmese and Oriental combined!!!!!


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

QOTN said:


> If they are the shows I think they are, I might be inclined to try club classes if you are going to join them. The miscellaneous classes are British, Foreign, Burmese and Oriental combined!!!!!


A tonk owner friend and I were just discussing this, seems a big combination 

I hadn't planned on joining the club to be honest (as I got a bit confused by the whole concept of proposed and seconded ... )


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Psygon said:


> A tonk owner friend and I were just discussing this, seems a big combination
> 
> I hadn't planned on joining the club to be honest (as I got a bit confused by the whole concept of proposed and seconded ... )


You don't need that if you put your entry in with your membership, the seconded and such happens behind the scene. You just include your membership fee, and enclose your membership application in with your show entry


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> You don't need that if you put your entry in with your membership, the seconded and such happens behind the scene. You just include your membership fee, and enclose your membership application in with your show entry


Not with our club. We try to find appropriate people who know them and if not, we still have to ask the applicant. Just more work for us!


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Not with our club. We try to find appropriate people who know them and if not, we still have to ask the applicant. Just more work for us!


I think this is one of the reasons why GCCF is starting to fail, many aspects are still incredibly old fashioned and put people off. But that's a whole other debate that will never reach a conclusion!


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

Rufus15 said:


> I think this is one of the reasons why GCCF is starting to fail, many aspects are still incredibly old fashioned and put people off. But that's a whole other debate that will never reach a conclusion!


I do agree that some of the aspects I've come across with GCCF seem a bit old fashioned. Even just printing the application form was a struggle (and obviously when I got that printed I didn't print the form to join the club... so if I want to do that at the same time as applying for the show I'd have to find someone who can print for me again heh).


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> I think this is one of the reasons why GCCF is starting to fail, many aspects are still incredibly old fashioned and put people off. But that's a whole other debate that will never reach a conclusion!


I do hope you are not suggesting that checking out people before accepting their application is 'old fashioned' and unnecessary.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Psygon said:


> I do agree that some of the aspects I've come across with GCCF seem a bit old fashioned. Even just printing the application form was a struggle (and obviously when I got that printed I didn't print the form to join the club... so if I want to do that at the same time as applying for the show I'd have to find someone who can print for me again heh).


Our show has an option to enter online and at the moment there are a few clubs trialling GCCF online entry. That may well prove to be helpful to other clubs but it will not be free so entry fees will have to rise. (Our club will not be changing.)


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

QOTN said:


> I do hope you are not suggesting that checking out people before accepting their application is 'old fashioned' and unnecessary.


For me it was just the printing and signing bits of paper that were old fashioned


----------



## Psygon (Apr 24, 2013)

QOTN said:


> Our show has an option to enter online and at the moment there are a few clubs trialling GCCF online entry. That may well prove to be helpful to other clubs but it will not be free so entry fees will have to rise. (Our club will not be changing.)


It would be nice if you could even just email the application form to the show manager, rather than having to print and post.

I do appreciate though that lots of changes bring in more complexity, and also appreciate that there are a lot of people who would just rather not do digital (and those that can't do digital).

I imagine it will be difficult to have a system that works for everyone!


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Psygon said:


> For me it was just the printing and signing bits of paper that were old fashioned


Well, our club also has an application form on our website which can be completed and sent electronically to the secretary but I don't know about other clubs.

Oops. Just checked and we no longer have the alternative application form, I suspect because nobody used it.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Psygon said:


> It would be nice if you could even just email the application form to the show manager, rather than having to print and post.
> I do appreciate though that lots of changes bring in more complexity, and also appreciate that there are a lot of people who would just rather not do digital (and those that can't do digital).
> I imagine it will be difficult to have a system that works for everyone!


I actually think the shows you are entering are sensible to wait until the GCCF scheme has resolved any teething problems. Not all clubs have a show team that can deal with its own online entry. We offer more than one option which works well, but, as I said, not every club has the 'right' people to do that.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> I do hope you are not suggesting that checking out people before accepting their application is 'old fashioned' and unnecessary.


For a cat club? Yes it is. I wouldn't join am amateur theatre society, for example, and be seconded in. The elitist attitude puts people off.



Psygon said:


> It would be nice if you could even just email the application form to the show manager, rather than having to print and post.
> 
> I do appreciate though that lots of changes bring in more complexity, and also appreciate that there are a lot of people who would just rather not do digital (and those that can't do digital).
> 
> I imagine it will be difficult to have a system that works for everyone!


One thing you'll experience very quickly in GCCF is that a number of people are adamantly against change, even when it's for the better, and they're often loudest moaners about what doesn't work whilst not suggesting anything that might work.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> For a cat club? Yes it is. I wouldn't join am amateur theatre society, for example, and be seconded in. The elitist attitude puts people off.


Amateur Theatricals are not a valid comparison. No dependent live creatures involved. Cat clubs are required to have an ethical approach.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Amateur Theatricals are not a valid comparison. No dependent live creatures involved. Cat clubs are required to have an ethical approach.


Yes indeed, which is why members have to be members for 12 months before prefix approval. That aspect I think is very sensible. Not all club members breed, however, nor have they any intention of breeding. How many members are there per club versus how many members actually show up for AGMs? Vetting people for club membership is a pointless exercise imo, more effort should be put into vetting breeders.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Online entry is the future, but at present there are a number of known glitches in the system and it's author works full-time so getting them resolved isn't going to happen overnight. Paper entry will always have to be available as not everyone has a computer or will do it online, but the new system saves a lot of effort for a show team of entering the paper details as it looks them up from the cat's registration. Some people have incredibly vague handwriting, thankfully it's possible to look up addresses from postcodes.

Side classes increase cost and a lot of shows are reducing the number to try to keep costs down. I know that's the case for the shows where I've been involved in setting up the schedule. Also with the small breed classes is there any point to having all of novice / debutante / maiden?

Is the GCCF failing? Interesting question, the first and most obvious question is how does one define 'failing'?

I think social media has altered buying kittens making it far easier for BYBs to sell undercutting good & conscientious breeders. Sadly it never seems to occur to people who buy from them that £250 for an 8-week old unvaccinated etc. kitten is poor value compared to £450 for a 13-week old kitten which is vaccinated and much less likely to land one with a big vet bill, plus that age from 8-3 weeks is when they eat more than an adult and have an output to match the input. In other words there's much more money in an unvaccinated kitten of 8 weeks than a vaccinated one of 13 weeks.

There's also the perception BYBs peddle that 'papers are not needed for pets' and the outrageous extra some charge for them, obviously people who do pay the extra have no idea the maximum it costs to register a kitten is currently £23. 

Certainly where I live it is much harder to sell kittens to the right homes than a few years ago, maybe I should try charging more!

We have also been through a recession starting in 2008 which the country still hasn't fully recovered from, but numbers shown have been going down for quite some time before that. Back in the mid 1990s I entered a household pet who was in pen 840 or thereabouts. The same show moved to a smaller venue quite some years ago, and I believe now gets about 300 cats. 

I've heard people saying the other show formats are 'better', my personal experience was I had to sit with my cat all morning to make sure I was there to take him up at the right time, and yes I have a hand-written report (two of them in fact) and I can't read them. Despite the racist remark I heard someone make it wasn't because the judges were from the EU, it's because they are writing in a hurry.

However the number of cats registered hasn't changed much over the past few years, being about 21,000 in 2011/12 to about 1,000 less in 2016, the last year for which numbers are on the GCCF web site. I've not been able to find any comparable information for TICA / FiFE / etc. which makes claims that people are 'flocking' to these alternative registries hard to substantiate.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Rufus15 said:


> Yes indeed, which is why members have to be members for 12 months before prefix approval. That aspect I think is very sensible. Not all club members breed, however, nor have they any intention of breeding. How many members are there per club versus how many members actually show up for AGMs? Vetting people for club membership is a pointless exercise imo, more effort should be put into vetting breeders.


I hadn't been a member of the club that signed my prefix application for 12 months, however I had been a member in the past, I have no idea if they remembered that when doing the signing.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Psygon said:


> It would be nice if you could even just email the application form to the show manager, rather than having to print and post.
> 
> I do appreciate though that lots of changes bring in more complexity, and also appreciate that there are a lot of people who would just rather not do digital (and those that can't do digital).
> 
> I imagine it will be difficult to have a system that works for everyone!


You often can email the application form (and show entry forms), and there are plenty of websites that let you put in the URL of a form and type over it, as if on a sheet of tracing paper. I've also been known to give up trying to fill in pedigree details and simply added a copy of the cat's pedigree. Small boxes, large & very untidy handwriting don't mix!


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

OrientalSlave said:


> Online entry is the future, but at present there are a number of known glitches in the system and it's author works full-time so getting them resolved isn't going to happen overnight. Paper entry will always have to be available as not everyone has a computer or will do it online, but the new system saves a lot of effort for a show team of entering the paper details as it looks them up from the cat's registration. Some people have incredibly vague handwriting, thankfully it's possible to look up addresses from postcodes.
> 
> Side classes increase cost and a lot of shows are reducing the number to try to keep costs down. I know that's the case for the shows where I've been involved in setting up the schedule. Also with the small breed classes is there any point to having all of novice / debutante / maiden?
> 
> ...


I agree with you on all that you've said about BYBs, the recession, etc. I've also heard the same as you, that other show formats are 'better' and I can't agree with those making the comments. I find the show format of the Supreme very stressful, not knowing when my cat will be up for judging. To then have to stay with the cat, on edge, waiting to hear the announcement of the ring, I couldn't cope with that. I think people forget that showing isn't a one size fits all, and works for one exhibitor doesn't work for everyone. Never mind considering the differences in preferred type between the registries.

Coming into GCCF with new eyes, I see the politics, the playground attitude, and the downright nastiness, and I think this is largely what puts people off. It's such a bitchy world, and very often the childish behaviour becomes bullying and spiteful, which certainly puts the gentler folk off. I don't blame them, people work hard in the week and want to enter a cat show for the enjoyment of their hobby, not to be told their cat that they love dearly is crap, from a crap breeder, and they wasted their money 

I think what is also off putting in a stubborn, pig headed unwillingness to change. Take the shake up of the Grands for example. The new system, in my view, is much fairer. Like for like has been put together (although why NFO isn't in with MCO and SIB is beyond me, that's just odd), It's caused uproar! People complain that shows are declining and there's not enough competition, and then when classes are reduced to increase competition, people moan even more! People are moaning constantly about the new online system, but we're the only registry in the UK with such a system, helping GCCF be a bit more modern and user friendly. Similarly with Project Phoenix, there were endless gripes about it yet look how handy it is now to transfer ownership, import, register kittens, etc. Breeders and exhibitors under GCCF don't help themselves or the GCCF's image.

That's been my two cents on it anyway, coming into it still fairly new.



OrientalSlave said:


> I hadn't been a member of the club that signed my prefix application for 12 months, however I had been a member in the past, I have no idea if they remembered that when doing the signing.


I expect that's because you were a member previously so they knew who you were


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Yes indeed, which is why members have to be members for 12 months before prefix approval. That aspect I think is very sensible. Not all club members breed, however, nor have they any intention of breeding. How many members are there per club versus how many members actually show up for AGMs? Vetting people for club membership is a pointless exercise imo, more effort should be put into vetting breeders.


Club rules vary. Our club has no 12 month rule for signing prefix applications. Most people are completely cynical about club membership. We have a few loyal members we can count on but the rest come and go according to how they rate the judges at the present year's show. Just typical of people today generally. (The attitude of 'What's in it for me' has to be answered favourably before they decide on any course of action.)

Clubs do not have the remit to vet breeders but we do try only to accept new members who keep their cats in reasonable conditions. Cat welfare can easily deteriorate in a show only home where the owner starts 'collecting' so breeders are not our only concern.


----------



## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Coming into GCCF with new eyes, I see the politics, the playground attitude, and the downright nastiness, and I think this is largely what puts people off. It's such a bitchy world, and very often the childish behaviour becomes bullying and spiteful, which certainly puts the gentler folk off. I don't blame them, people work hard in the week and want to enter a cat show for the enjoyment of their hobby, not to be told their cat that they love dearly is crap, from a crap breeder, and they wasted their money


To be fair, the GCCF is probably no better or worse than anywhere else. People are pretty much the same everywhere. Those who can be bothered or are arrogant enough to want to be in charge have to put up with the inevitable criticism from many not prepared to take those roles. It is the way of the world I am afraid but not everybody is the same. Perhaps you have been unfortunate in those you have met in the show world, although, of course, people tend to react differently according to their perceptions of any particular individual they meet.


----------



## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Club rules vary. Our club has no 12 month rule for signing prefix applications. Most people are completely cynical about club membership. We have a few loyal members we can count on but the rest come and go according to how they rate the judges at the present year's show. Just typical of people today generally. (The attitude of 'What's in it for me' has to be answered favourably before they decide on any course of action.)
> 
> Clubs do not have the remit to vet breeders but we do try only to accept new members who keep their cats in reasonable conditions. Cat welfare can easily deteriorate in a show only home where the owner starts 'collecting' so breeders are not our only concern.


I agree, clubs do seem to have a few loyal core members and the rest are flaky. I do wonder if breed clubs have more loyal following than an area-based club. I always join clubs as a member when I show, it usually works out cheaper and I like to offer my support in boosting their membership numbers, I find it quite sad that people will base their membership on who's judging that year. Like you say, too much of an attitude that doesn't encourage a symbiotic relationship.



QOTN said:


> To be fair, the GCCF is probably no better or worse than anywhere else. People are pretty much the same everywhere. Those who can be bothered or are arrogant enough to want to be in charge have to put up with the inevitable criticism from many not prepared to take those roles. It is the way of the world I am afraid but not everybody is the same. Perhaps you have been unfortunate in those you have met in the show world, although, of course, people tend to react differently according to their perceptions of any particular individual they meet.


I think it certainly varies breed to breed. British breeders are vile to each other which is partly why I didn't go on to breed British, same as Maine Coons. In Maine Coons I've been targeted, I'm not particularly quiet  but the behaviour of some breeders in MCs has been horrendous. It has gone from bullying to blatant attempts at personal humiliation because I dared to stand up to the bully. I've seen both the best and the worst of the show world in my short time, which is unfortunate indeed, but I'm the type where I just brush it off and ignore it, and only focus on the good parts which have been truly amazing.

I do think you're right though, that GCCF is probably no better or worse than anywhere else. This week I've seen some absolutely disgraceful behaviour from TICA breeders, the second lot in the last four weeks. I think hobbies like this, with fierce competition and lots of expenditure, brings out the worst in people.


----------

