# pattern question



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

ragdoll question

can 2 colourpoints produce a bi-colour?

mum a seal point dad a blue mitted

thanks!


----------



## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

According to this ...

The British Ragdoll Cat Club - Ragdoll Pattern & Colour Predictions

No they can't.

They will produce 1/2 colourpoint and 1/2 mitted.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi thanks I know about that and what they Should produce....

BUT is it Possible!


----------



## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Obviously the Ragdoll-specific genes are not really my area of expertise, but it seems that there is the possibility that a Ragdoll that is genetically a bicolour (a mid-high white, for example) could possibly be classified, registered and shown as a mitted, and visa versa.

In that case, it is, of course, possible that a bicolour offspring with a better (ie: recognisable) pattern is born.

See here. I think the info you want is on pages 9-11 (Ragdolls start on page 10).


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

mums a colourpoint....dads a colourpoint.............Could they produce a bi-colour!


----------



## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> mums a colourpoint....dads a colourpoint.............Could they produce a bi-colour!


Before you start getting snippy, could you make up your mind, please? If by "colourpoint" you mean neither have any white, then no, no bicolour kittens will be produced. But you didn't say that. You said:



Taylorbaby said:


> mum a seal point dad a blue mitted


Mitted, by definition, means white paws, does it not?

So, I would assume one of 3 things: 1. dad was misclassified as mitted when he's genetically a bicolour (as explained above), or 2. the dad is not the dad you think he is, or 3. you have the colours wrong in your original post, in which case, refer to point 2.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Think you have read more into that post im not 'snippy' I dont even know what that means.

Dad is a colourpoint mitted mum is a colourpoint, same thing in both posts, dads 100% colourpoint mitted and mums def the colourpoint mummy. dads blue mums seal.

so would this Be Possible, some genetics people say it Can be possible

Im only asking as a friend of mine has used her boy & girl and had 3 bi-colours in the litter and I thought that this was impossible from 2 colourpoint parents!!


----------



## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm confused. :confused1::confused1::confused1:

Colourpoint means no white.

Mitted means white paws and chin (and tummy, to some degree). A white blaze on the face is allowed.

Bi-colour means the white on the tummy and / or legs extends all the way up the face in an inverted 'V'. It's a more extensive form of the white on the Mitted Ragdoll.

If he's mitted, by definition, *he can't be a Colourpoint*, can he?


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

ive had colourpoints and torties that are mitted ive seen cats that arent bi-colours that are mitted??

Have I got it wrong?? His face is colourpoint but he has 4white mitts.....

im confused!! : ive completly confused myself!

this is what the dad looks like but blue










Your right your right!!! ARGH!! im sucha idiot!
SORRY I mean that his face isnt bi-colour but his face looks like that above but his mitted, Ive really got in a muddle here 

dad looks like that above so a blue mitted and blue and mums a seal colourpoint


----------



## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

It's okay. 

I know what you mean now.

You're confusing the _colourpoint gene_ (also called the Himalayan or Siamese gene, the one that causes the colourpoint pattern) with the _Ragdoll standard_ definition of colourpoint.

Yes, all Ragdolls have two copies of the colourpoint gene, but the Ragdoll standard doesn't call all Ragdolls colourpoints: only those ones with no white on them are Colourpoints.

So, the boy in question is mitted.

Do the three kittens in question have mitts and white blazes on their noses, or are they bicolours?


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

hiya i know im so sorry  i *know that* I have no idea what i was even thinking of!!

well they have full bi-colour looks, inverted V on the face and whitepaws/body and brownish saddle. i was so surprised as i wad lead to beleive that colourpoint & colourpoint or colourpoint & mitted cant = a bi colour??

but she said she spoke to the man who she bought the stud from and he said that its possible to get bi-colours from colourpoints & mitted parents?


----------



## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

The thing is, it's a somewhat of a spectrum.

No white ----> Some white ----> More white ---. Lots of white
Colourpoint ---> Mitted ---> High Mitted ---> Bicolour

The piebald genes that cause the kind of white seen in Ragdolls are known for being extremely variable in their expression, so there's no way of ruling out the fact that a parent that appears to have not much white might pass more white on to their kittens, and mismarked Ragdolls are not uncommon.

Because High Mitted Ragdolls are not classified separately to Mitted Ragdolls, there is also always the chance he is one of these, rather, and is passing more white onto his kittens than is expected.

That might be it?


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

The only thing I can think of is that

a) mum is a mismarked mitted (appears c/p but is actually a mitted. 2 mitteds can produce high mitteds which appear bicoloured.

b) dad is actually a mismarked bicolour (appears mitted, no inverted V on the face etc)?

What patterns were the other kittens? What patterned kittens has mum and dad have before?


I have a mismarked girl here with "mitts". I say mitts loosely as they're slightly higher than mitteds should be but lower than a bicolour. She has a solid nose and just a small amount of white below her eyes. She could quite easily be classed as a mismarked mitted but as her dad is a true bicolour and mum is colourpoint, their kittens can only be colourpoint or bicolour.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

hiya ive only seen a couple of pics, dad is a blue mitted cant see any white on his face and he has blue paws but those bits are white, and mum is a seal colourpoint.

2 or 3 of them were bi-colour and the rest colourpoints from what i remember 

she sent it to me a while ago and ive been thinking of it, no idea what/if they have had kittens before, think the dad has but no idea what they look like!

RIGHT! Just checked my email and mum is seal mitted & dad a blue mitted....does that make a difference? def 2 of them are bi-colours just looked at the piccis


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Ahhhh THAT makes things clearer! The bicolours are actually high mitted bicolours. They appear completely bicoloured but if they're mated back to a coloupoint, would produce mitteds (not bicolours).


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

lol sorry for the confusion   so the bi-colour is possible from that mating??


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Yep! Mitted x mitted = high mitted (bicolour). Perfectly possible!


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

yippee lol!!! She was asking me for advice and at the time I thought it was 2 colourpoints! didnt realize just re-reading the email it was 2mitts....... 

Ah dear!! lol thanks for all the help!! I can rest easy now lol!


----------

