# Muzzles and DA dogs - question?



## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had a DA dog that has become more accepting of dogs when wearing a muzzle? Just wondered if they knew they couldn't actually bite a dog if they were less aggressive. Flynn has been so good for the past few months around dogs, with the LAT game he has come on in leaps and bounds but today he so very nearly got to another dog and if he had he would have done it some serious damage i'm sure! 

Although this is a one off he is so strong that he might get to a dog one day if he sustains the stamina he had today. He huffed at this dog ( a cocker spaniel) and tugged on the lead which set the CS off on a barking mission and to make things worse the owner just stood still, not moving on so they remained in Flynns sight until I eventually managed to drag him away - after he had dragged me in and out of the road I hasten to add. So if I am not physically strong enough to hold him (he is attached by a walking belt) then I think I will have to muzzle him even though this is kind of a one off I can't allow a dog to be put in danger because of him. 

Also wanted to know if this is fear aggression or just plain aggression as he was trying to get at the dog and not away from it.

So pi**ed off at the mo!


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Bob is not keen on other dogs.. 

I bought him the basket muzzle.. if I put it on he is very subdued near other dogs.. I do believe that he knows he is unable to protect himself whilst wearing it..


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

That's what I wondered so I am going to try one. It still won't stop him dragging me about if the feeling takes him but at least he won't be able to hurt another dog.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Made absolutely no difference with Rupert, he was just as likely to attack another dog while muzzled as he was unmuzzled. He was actually terrified of other dogs but had learned to attack them before they attacked him. On leash anyway, on the rare occasion he met one while off leash he either avoided it or made friends. 

And unfortunately a muzzle doesn't necessarily prevent damage being done. Especially if there's quite a size difference. Rupe got attacked by a JRT type while muzzled and ended up breaking its ribs. If you're really struggling to control Flynn then it may be worth looking at something to help with that too.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Of course it's not just teeth that do damage and Mals actually do "punch" at things too which doesn't help but I have been walking Flynn for nearly four years and nothing like this has ever happened before and I just don't understand why it did today. 

I don't struggle with Flynn and he is an exceptionally well behaved dog as far as lead walking goes, had many people comment and even a couple who foster GSD's asked how I managed to get him to behave so well but this DA today reared it's ugly head and has made me feel that I can't continue with his LAT training in case he ever does this again. In future he will be muzzled and I will avoid dogs that come our way. We have never been to the park across the road simply in case and off leaders came up, keeping other dogs safe has always been my priority.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sometimes it's just one of those days I guess. Rupert had me flat on my back in the mud one day going after another dog. And all it takes is for a large dog to catch you off balance and it can be a nightmare trying to regain control.

Has Flynn had problems with this spaniel before? Or another spaniel. Rupert was far, far worse with some dogs than he was others and his reaction to staffies, bulldogs, bull terriers and labrador puppies was really extreme.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Malmum said:


> Probably a silly question but has anyone ever had a DA dog that has become more accepting of dogs when wearing a muzzle? Just wondered if they knew they couldn't actually bite a dog if they were less aggressive. Flynn has been so good for the past few months around dogs, with the LAT game he has come on in leaps and bounds but today he so very nearly got to another dog and if he had he would have done it some serious damage i'm sure!
> 
> Although this is a one off he is so strong that he might get to a dog one day if he sustains the stamina he had today. He huffed at this dog ( a cocker spaniel) and tugged on the lead which set the CS off on a barking mission and to make things worse the owner just stood still, not moving on so they remained in Flynns sight until I eventually managed to drag him away - after he had dragged me in and out of the road I hasten to add. So if I am not physically strong enough to hold him (he is attached by a walking belt) then I think I will have to muzzle him even though this is kind of a one off I can't allow a dog to be put in danger because of him.
> 
> ...


I am curious to understand why you accuse the other owner of making things worse? 

It is not the responsibility of OTHER dog owners to take action to avoid the unwanted attention of a DA dog is it? 

If my dogs have been the target of out of control dogs, I too have stood my ground as movement can make the DA dog worse. 

There is no such thing as "fear aggression" how can a dog be fearful AND aggressive at the same time?

I certainly would not consider a muzzled DA dog to be "safe" with other dogs, as anyone who has seen a muzzle attack by a dog would agree with.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

So what do I do with him smokeybear? cage him and treat him like a lion? If a muzzle is still too much of a risk and there is no such thing as fear aggression (see below) then what does one do with a dog who in four years has never shown this amount of anxiety? PTS - perhaps??? 

What is Dog Fear Aggression? And How to Deal with it

Different Types of Aggression in Aggressive Dogs

How Dogs Display Nervous or Fear Aggression « The Spirit Dog

If I were walking Bruce and a large dog showed what Flynn showed today the last thing I would do is stand there. Surely with the dog barking at him like it was, there is bound to be more of a reaction than if that dog was taken out of the scenario. Both dogs staring at each other is a sure fire way of this escalating.
Your post is full of negatives and of no help at all!

Sarah - I have always avoided this dog in the past and Flynn could have reacted because of this. He see's some dogs and is okay but I know he doesn't like black dogs, as many dogs don't according to a thread I once put up. This dog is partially black and maybe that's why he reacted. He shouldn't have got any vibes from me as I was feeling confident, had I not been I wouldn't have taken Flynn last the dog at all.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Might have been because she spent the whole time sulking but she never went for another dog with a muzzle on although she did have a full on growling with another malamute (didn't know it was a mal thing then).


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Malmum said:


> So what do I do with him smokeybear? cage him and treat him like a lion? If a muzzle is still too much of a risk and there is no such thing as fear aggression (see below) then what does one do with a dog who in four years has never shown this amount of anxiety? PTS - perhaps???
> 
> What is Dog Fear Aggression? And How to Deal with it
> 
> ...


If you cannot control your dog you should now own it, if you are not strong enough to prevent yourself being dragged into the road you should not walk your dog.

I am not even going to bother to refute the internet links posted, there are still people who belong to the flat earth society.

You can either control your dog or you cannot, if you cannot control your dog when on a lead, then you are overdogged.

I repeat, it is not the responsiblity of other dog owners to control your dog, it is yours, other people are free to do what they wish, no point in blaming others for your own failures is there?

Although this is a common defence.

Of course my post is full of negatives, what is there positive to say? 

Putting a muzzle on your dog is not going to prevent him dragging you into the road again is it?


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> If you cannot control your dog you should now own it, if you are not strong enough to prevent yourself being dragged into the road you should not walk your dog.
> 
> Putting a muzzle on your dog is not going to prevent him dragging you into the road again is it?


i am sorry but that is ridiculous!

obviously malmum knows this isnt acceptable and is trying to do something about it .

the muzzle wont stop pulling but as she says this has never happend in 4 yrs so why should she not own this dog ? a muzzle would be a precaution just incase.

also surely not walking hum would only make things worse....


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## Paganman (Jul 29, 2011)

I just looked at your photos and that is one huge dog!

How about an extra lead that goes to his ankle, in a dire emergency you could take one leg off the ground giving you a bit more control?

Like this...


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

haha love your drawing


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

alyssa_liss said:


> i am sorry but that is ridiculous!
> 
> obviously malmum knows this isnt acceptable and is trying to do something about it .
> 
> ...


The only thing that I consider ridiculous is owning and walking a dog that you cannot prevent from dragging you into the road and blaming somebody else for this!

People who have horses that are too strong for them, sell them on or rehome them.

People who are not skilled enough to drive Formula 1 cars, drive Ford Fiestas.

Dogs are no different.

I am not suggesting the dog is not walked, but that it is walked by somebody who can adequately control it.

As for the dog "not liking black dogs" well as the world is dominated by black dogs, this is going to make life a little tricky.

I do not like yellow cars, but I don't scream at them.

The dog can still dislike black dogs (if that indeed is the truth) but it should receive some behavioural modification in order to prevent this overreaction to them.


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## Paganman (Jul 29, 2011)

alyssa_liss said:


> haha love your drawing


Digital art innit


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## alyssa_liss (May 4, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> The only thing that I consider ridiculous is owning and walking a dog that you cannot prevent from dragging you into the road and blaming somebody else for this!
> 
> People who have horses that are too strong for them, sell them on or rehome them.
> 
> ...


i havnt actually seen malmum blaming the other dog walker for this. yes other members have said he was an idiot but not malmum that i am aware.

"People who are not skilled enough to drive Formula 1 cars, drive Ford Fiestas." using that logic , how many F1 drivers have had a crash , yet still race ... would you expect them to give up ? or see what happend, where they went wrong and re-asses it.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> The only thing that I consider ridiculous is owning and walking a dog that you cannot prevent from dragging you into the road and blaming somebody else for this!
> 
> People who have horses that are too strong for them, sell them on or rehome them.
> 
> ...


Re: Controlling Flynn: If this was a regular occurrence then this may be a sensible approach but this is the first time that this has happened in years so surely it would be more sensible to look at preventing any future incidents happening.

I have had one instance of not having control of my dog; I was on a wet river bank & she decided to lunge down the side towards a dog. She pulled me with her. Although I was still able to hold on I (in all honesty) did not have control. Since then I have made sure we have never been in that position again.

Having a reactive dog myself I would agree that Flynn would probably benefit from some sort of training/behavioru modification around other dogs but this will take time so surely preventative measures should be put in place for walks in the mean time


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

smokeybear do you always have to be so rude to everyone? 
malmum is asking on ways to help this not to happen again and if a muzzle could help no need to be so rude, dont you think she feels bad enough about the situation that happened? 
from what i have read she is trying to sort out the problem not just offload her dog to someone who "can handle it" a dog isnt like driving a car?

my labrador could pull me about too should i get rid of her since im working on that? no i should work on it, the way malmum is going to work on this problem

to the op wether or not a muzzle will help calm him i dont know but it is a good idea to have one just incase, and how about a headcollar? that may also help give you more control and keep the attention on you or you could try paganmans idea looks like it might work


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## AngelEyes92 (Jan 30, 2012)

Sorry in advance, this has nothing really to do with the thread.. 

But what does DA mean??!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Don't worry redroses I am not even bothering to read smokeybears negativity after the first post. As my daughter said I *did* control him and he *didn't *get to the other dog. Had he attacked the other dog then he would have been out of control. The thing is with dogs it should not be about weight against weight and it never has been with Flynn and I, he is always on perfect behaviour when out as this thread and many other positive threads about him will show. http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/213511-big-head-moment.html
He has many admirers around here and knows some dogs even if not to actually meet them up close and is never like he was today. I suppose at the end of the day he is an animal and animals can be unpredictable.

Yes he is big and yes he is strong but he hasn't shown me just how much til today!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

AngelEyes92 said:


> Sorry in advance, this has nothing really to do with the thread..
> 
> But what does DA mean??!


Dog aggressive


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

Malmum said:


> That's what I wondered so I am going to try one. It still won't stop him dragging me about if the feeling takes him but at least he won't be able to hurt another dog.


Wrong dogs are dogs.. so if they are off the lead them can get them muzzle of.. High concentration is needed with a dog with a muzzle


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

momentofmadness said:


> Wrong dogs are dogs.. so if they are off the lead them can get them muzzle of.. High concentration is needed with a dog with a muzzle


Just Ignore that^.. xxx Kids and beer ..


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

Has Flynn ever been to training classes Malamum?

A well run class can be brilliant for teaching self-control around other dogs.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> There is no such thing as "fear aggression" how can a dog be fearful AND aggressive at the same time?


Crikey! That's quite some statement!

I disagree immensely!
And TBH- I think all of the main leading behaviourists in the field of B-MOD and training would do too!

Aggressive behaviour is an adaptive one. It serves the purpose of ensuring the survival of an animal. For that reason alone there is often a very real correlation between a fear based perception of stimuli and an aggressive response. The feared stimuli presents a threat to the animal, it presents enough of a threat that reactive/aggressive behaviour is needed to create distance between it and you and to lessen the threat. 
Aggression as a fear based response tends to appear when the dog is "flooded" with lack of distance and choices about the feared stimuli (can they get away, can they devert?).

A dog with fewer choices is more likely to aggress. 
And yet evolutionarily, aggression is risky. Why? The "fight" response comes hand in hand with the risk of injury to yourself. For this reason a dog that aggresses is SERIOUSLY freaked by a situation. They are frightened enough that this risk is "worth taking".

Are you familiar with the "fight or flight response"- cued by the sympathetic nervous system and physiological hormonal changes that arise as a symptom of flooding/presentation with feared stimuli?

READ HERE FOR INFO

Obviously the above is a generalization for the sake of understanding FA responses overall but the POINT is a fearful dogs do aggress. Just because they choose the "fight" option, it does not mean that their behaviour is not fuelled by fear. If anything the fact that this was the chosen option is reflective of the intensity of the fear.

It also depends of what your categorisation of aggression is. Generally speaking- there is much variation and options between the "fight" and "flight" options.

This is were we get into talking about thresholds. According to Jean Donaldson (her book the Culture Clash is superb- NOT to be missed); a dog's intensity/level of reactions to a stimuli depend very much of the intensity of the feared stimuli (we already covered that) and (importantly) whether a combination of feared stimuli are presented. In her "bite-threshold model" she details how lower level triggers may cue the dog to freeze ("freeze threshold" reached), then with increased intensity (proximity or otherwise) of the trigger, the dog may growl (over-growl threshold), more intensity may cue the dog to go straight over "snap threshold". Finally as I sure you've guessed by now if pushed further enough from then they may go straight to bite (bite threshold reached). A common one is people ignoring freezing and dub the dog "stubborn", then flooding them and then proclaiming that the dog "bit without warning". 

Of course there are variations within this, sometimes dogs may become conflicted about a situation; i.e. try to appease someone/something (which they take as soliciting attention) and the dog finds himself flooded and is pushed over his "snap threshold". This is the dog that is described as "just switching"; when if in fact they sort to appease because they were worried, were misread and found themselves is a rubbish situation.

INTERESTING ARTICLE HERE

For all of the above reasons, fearful dogs need understanding (understanding complex body language, FA responses, thresholds and keeping them sub-threshold and how to teach them to make good choices).



> Also wanted to know if this is fear aggression or just plain aggression as he was trying to get at the dog and not away from it.


You raise a very interesting point behaviourally. This is a question that splits much of the behaviour world. Is there such a thing as an aggressive dog that is NOT fearful.

My answer:
Yes. BUT the vast majority of aggression cases (we're talking 99%) are fear based in my experience. 
That is, the emotion that drives the behaviour is fear.

I've heard people talk of "pure" aggressive dogs before. Dogs that bite to control. Whilst I understand the theory they present to me a dog that seeks to control a situation/incoming stimuli, is not a relaxed happy one and thus an important component and emotion that drives the behaviour is likely to be chronic stress and fear.

There is also the case of barrier frustration and arousal (as well as behaviour chains which cue predatory chase type sequences). These cases are the main ones that tend not to be fear based. That said in some cases, stress (both psychological and physiological) is likely to be a factor in reinforcing undesirable chains and practising cued arousal and low arousal thresholds.

To save myself some typing the following link explains the basics:

BARRIER FRUSTRATION

Arousal, excitement, frustration, predatory behaviour chain- cued behaviours aside I very much doubt the existence of a "pure" aggressive dog (with the exception possibly of neurological and genetic problems/imbalances which account of abnormal reactions- rage syndrome is an example). Instead I believe that certain trainers suggest such an idea so as to reinforce their training ideas and the need to suffocate, bully and dominate the dog. 
In my opinion the don't really understand dogs.

Fear based aggression, nevertheless accounts for the majority of aggression cases, seconded only by arousal/barrier frustration and predatory chase-hunt cued behaviours.

FINALLY...

in response to the OPs question:

Would I suggest a muzzle as the sole way of subduing a DA (dog aggressive) dog?

Absolutely NOT. A muzzle is a tool. You may find it helpful in making other owners think about how they and their dog's approach you. This will likely provide you with distance which definitely is a gratefully received benefit: it will allow you to keep your dog sub-threshold and therefore will mean that you can practise training more socially desirable choices/behaviours around feared stimuli, as well as desensitizing and counter-conditioning his emotional response to them. Similarly if you are more relaxed with your dog muzzled, you will feel better prepared and in a better position to make choices that will help your dog to succeed and remain sub-threshold. Happy owner= happy dog. The dog has their human looking out for them, he can trust them to make choices, get rid of unwanted dogs/people and to keep him safe.

I LIKE muzzles, I think they are great.

However I would not just pop one on a dog and then take him to places that I know he would react to if he did not have the muzzle on.

That's not fair or kind. Dogs are our friends and we should try to make life easier for them but teaching them calmly, positively and as gradually as needed that it's all ok and that we've got their back.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2012)

Malmum, I dont know what equipment you are using, but have you tried a front clip harness? They offer great leverage if you dog starts dragging you.

A muzzle is a tool, its not going to train the dog to do anything, or desensitize him to anything, but it might give you peace of mind, and that peace of mind will help you relax and make things like the LAT game even more effective.

If youre using LAT with success, you may want to try more of the exercises in Control Unleashed. Its not so much about affecting his DA, but about keeping him focused on you so he doesnt get over threshold and feel like he needs to act on his DA.

I dont know about over there, but here we many trainers who do classes based on the principles in McDevitts book. I took a Focus and Control class with both my younger two, not because of issues, but to help with young dog distractibility. It does help. Some distractions you just cant create at home, and having a helper and other dogs in class can really help build up your focus under distractions. Maybe you could find a similar class?



smokeybear said:


> I am curious to understand why you accuse the other owner of making things worse?
> 
> It is not the responsibility of OTHER dog owners to take action to avoid the unwanted attention of a DA dog is it?


 No, its not at all, youre right. But sometimes people do unwittingly make things worse. A dog staring at your dog (especially a herding type doing the glare stare) can really set another dog off. Its common courtesy to turn your dog away from a dog reacting to yours, even something as simple as turning your dogs head away can help diffuse an escalating situation.



smokeybear said:


> If my dogs have been the target of out of control dogs, I too have stood my ground as movement can make the DA dog worse.


Standing your ground is generally more challenging to a reactive dog than having your dog turn his head and create distance between the two dogs. If someone is struggling with their dog and mine is well controlled, I dont have any issue trying to help them out by moving my dog away.



smokeybear said:


> There is no such thing as "fear aggression" how can a dog be fearful AND aggressive at the same time?


Its really incredibly common actually for an aggressive dog to be acting out of fear. Most dogs learn quickly that a big loud display will make whatever theyre afraid of back off, so theyre strongly reinforced for acting like that and continue to do it, often with more and more zeal.
Some would argue that all aggression (expect prey drive - that isnt really aggression anyway) is based in fear. Considering most effective rehabilitation is based on desensitizing the dog to triggers, the fear theory makes a whole lot of sense.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Snuggles said:


> Has Flynn ever been to training classes Malamum?
> 
> A well run class can be brilliant for teaching self-control around other dogs.


I have tried so hard to get Flynn into classes around here Snuggles, even before he had his hip replacements but all I can find are one to one trainers. He has met my trainers GSD and after an initial growl accepted him well, wanting to just play and go banana's with him. My trainer said he has fear aggression - at the time he was 18 months old and un neutered, she suggested he be neutered and he was within the week. I do everything I can to help Flynn and would love to get him into a group training session but have had no luck, that's why Lindsey on the forum said I could meet up with her and Gunner to see how Flynn reacts to another Mal. I am very grateful for the offer and have waited for him to settle after his ops before I contact her which should be in the Spring sometime.
I do believe that a group class would help both of us TBH and will continue to try and fine one, although I think it's going to be tough even if I could find one as Flynn doesn't have yearly boosters due to a bad reaction from his last one.

_______________________________

*Lemmsy* - I think a muzzle would be great for alerting other dog owners to keep a distance and I have bought one today to try it out. I absolutely hate using it as I do believe yesterday was all my fault and now Flynn is having to pay for it! 

I have been going over what lead up to his outburst and the way I decided to walk past the other dog.
I saw the dog and went to turn and walk the other way then changed my mind because how is he going to learn dogs are okay if I don't even give him the chance to see them? Think that was a bit of a Cesar Milan moment as he says they have to react in order for you to show them how not to react. Flynn's been very good just lately and I have walked past a few dogs on the other side of the road so I thought - "no, don't turn away, take him past" I felt quite confident but am now aware of just how many treats I was hurriedly giving him, sort of like "don't look at the dog at all" amount of treats - so I think I must have been a little apprehensive!
I know Flynn's threshold and if he snorts or grumbles I always turn around and walk away from the trigger but this time he "triggered" too late and the dog was right opposite us. I still think he would have been okay if the other dog hadn't have gone off too because although Flynn had a little grumble and a small jump he wasn't on the way to going over the threshold as he's done that before and been calm afterwards.
I have avoided that dog before purely because of it's colouring as Flynn doesn't like black dogs for some reason and this dog is partially black and in doing what I did made the wrong choice and probably was tense too.

_______________________________

*ouesi* - I use a dogmatic head collar on Flynn for the sole reason of controlling him if he kicks off and thank goodness I do as I could never hold a dog of his strength any other way. I do have a front clip harness but he is too strong on a harness, whether front clip of back clip. I have to point out that Flynn walks beautifully by my side, never pulls and the head collar is purely a precaution I use for the "just in case" times should they occur. The head collar is attached to a harness just in case the head collar should come off, which is virtually impossible.

Flynn has had two hip replacements at the age of around two and another at three years of age so missed out on any form of socialisation during the recoveries and also pre op for some months because of the inability to walk for more than ten mins at a time. 
Taking into consideration the fact that he has usually three walks a day, over the last six months post op recovery we have had around 500 walks and just this one incident - am I over reacting in using the muzzle?
What keeps going through my head is if he had got to the dog and hurt is he could also have caught the owner too and there would have been a lot more than just a dog fight to consider. I can't help thinking his dog could have been killed and mine destroyed and all because I misjudged the situation. 
I have read so much about fear aggression, that's how I know it DOES exist, I have read so much about thresholds and the LAT game to keep him focussed on me and we were doing so well - but the ending yesterday could have be so tragic and I can't even begin to think what I would have done!

My kids keep saying, well nothing bad actually *did* happen and how well I did to actually hold on to a 58kgs dog who was really going for it, when loads of men you see on the TV can't hold a dog half Flynn's size, so I suppose they have a point. Of course I will never go anywhere near that dog again, in fact I'm pretty reluctant now to take him past even the dogs he has been okay with - my confidence has been a bit shot and I may trigger him again so we'll just have to avoid dogs completely.

One thing I do know is such a usually well behaved dog as Flynn doesn't deserve this.......








He hates it and so do I and I haven't taken him out today because of it!


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

Malmum said:


> I have tried so hard to get Flynn into classes around here Snuggles, even before he had his hip replacements but all I can find are one to one trainers. He has met my trainers GSD and after an initial growl accepted him well, wanting to just play and go banana's with him. My trainer said he has fear aggression - at the time he was 18 months old and un neutered, she suggested he be neutered and he was within the week. I do everything I can to help Flynn and would love to get him into a group training session but have had no luck, that's why Lindsey on the forum said I could meet up with her and Gunner to see how Flynn reacts to another Mal. I am very grateful for the offer and have waited for him to settle after his ops before I contact her which should be in the Spring sometime.
> I do believe that a group class would help both of us TBH and will continue to try and fine one, although I think it's going to be tough even if I could find one as Flynn doesn't have yearly boosters due to a bad reaction from his last one.


I really hope you can get something sorted for him. We've had brilliant results with some of the rescues from attending a well structured class environment.

Lindseys Gunner sounds like a lovely boy and I'm sure if will do Flynn the world of good to meet a none-confrontational strange moot. 

If you ever want a chat, I'll pm you my number. I've been through a whole range of behaviours with the rescues over the years and I know sometimes it just helps to have an outside perspective on it all when you take a step back. I've done it many times myself- Nook made me seriously question my sanity more than once. lol

You ARE doing a brilliant job with Flynn though. You have gone above and beyond what most owners would have done and you are facing and looking for solutions to the problem. Try not to be too hard on yourself.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Thank you snuggles, I'll look forward to our chat.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> I am curious to understand why you accuse the other owner of making things worse?
> 
> It's not the responsibility of [the handler of another dog to act] to avoid the unwanted attention of a DA dog,
> is it?


Yes, it IS their responsibility to *move - * move their dog away, get between their dog 
& the Dog-Aggro / Dog-Reactive dog to block their visual access, turn their dog's BACK to the reactive dog, 
or otherwise do what they can to halt the escalation, & minimize their dog's own additions to the event 
[like staring, posturing, hackling, barking, jacking the tail up over the back, etc].

JUST STANDING THERE, spectating, IS NOT intelligent, helpful, or responsible. :nono: 
handlers, whether they are owners, dog-walkers, visiting guests, a neighbor, etc, must have some basic 
concept of dog-behavior, safe handling, & so forth, before they sally forth on the streets or byways.

standing there like a poleaxed ox & letting their own dog continue to trigger an over-the-top reaction 
by another dog is beyond dumb, & well-into deliberate aggravation. 


smokeybear said:


> [When] my dogs [were] the target of OOC dogs, I too have stood my ground as movement can make the DA dog worse.


Moving =Away= will not make it 'worse'; it gives the reactive dog a chance to calm down, as the trigger 
is at a greater distance.



smokeybear said:


> There's no such thing as "fear aggression"... how can a dog be fearful AND aggressive at the same time?


not true - 
fearful dogs of all types are far-more likely to BITE than are confident dogs of all types.

one common example:
dogs who snap defensively at the vet, but are just fine at the groomer's, clearly exhibit fear-aggro, 
as their aggro is *motivated by* fear: they are afraid of pain, afraid of specific kinds of handling, 
anticipate a needle or a venipuncture, etc. 


smokeybear said:


> I... would not consider a muzzled DA dog to be "safe" with other dogs, [&] anyone who's seen
> a [dog wearing a muzzle attack another dog], would agree....


dogs wearing muzzles must still be leashed - & they cannot be approached by OFF-LEAD dogs, 
no matter how sweet, charming, playful, social, etc, those off-lead dogs may be.

it is up to the *owner or handler of an off-leash dog* to call them away, or immediately leash their dog 
when they see a muzzled dog approaching, or when they approach a muzzled dog: it is far too intimidating 
& even dangerous to the muzzled dog, to allow an un-muzzled dog free access to them - they are 
utterly defenceless.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> *He hates [the muzzle]* & so do I...
> I haven't taken him out today because of it!


there's absolutely NO reason for him to 'hate' a muzzle! :nono: that, unfortunately, was Ur error. 
luckily, it can be fixed :yesnod: - but U need to start fixing it ASAP.

just plonking it on the dog & expecting her/him to make the best of it is the wrong way to introduce it; 
muzzles, just like *headcollars*, require habituation & happy associations: simple classical conditioning.

it's not *optional - * teaching a dog that a muzzle means Good Things are about to happen is easy, 
doesn't take long, & is mandatory, IMO & IME - a dog who ducks a muzzle was not properly introduced, 
dogs who were correctly *conditioned* to a muzzle can be called from afar, simply say the dog's Sacred Name 
& wave the muzzle about, :lol: they'll come barreling over to shove their own faces into the opening, wagging 
& eager. :001_tt1:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Malmum said:


> One thing I do know is such a usually well behaved dog as Flynn doesn't deserve this.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this is your emotions and pride talking, not doing what is best for your dog. A dog can easily be trained to accept a muzzle. I train all my dogs to accept one, even though they have no need to wear one, you never know when an occassion may occur where they need to be muzzled (a classic example is an accident when they need treatment).

Whether you hate it or not is irrelevant as this is not about your feelings, but about your dogs best interests and how you can manage him when out.

You clearly mean well and want to do your best, but please don't let your prejudices get in the way of doing what is best for your dog.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Unless he physically over powers you and I know he is a big dog, then don't use it 

If you don't like it then he won't. 

Dont spoil your walks because of a little blip. 

It's one thing being responsible but try to keep it in context.... You had one bad walk with a dog who decided to stand and bark at your dog and a numpty owner who chose not to help you. 

Relax and carry on as normal.. X


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks very much for all your help and advice, you are all stars - well all but one, lol! 

I think I created the situation a little bit by even taking Flynn past a dog I knew he may not like but then if you don't try you never know do you? He has had a white poodle go off at him in the past , even on the same pavement as him and didn't react at all, so he must have got something from me this time - surely!

Yes you are quite right I suppose, it's me who doesn't like the muzzle, not something I have ever used in my 30 plus years of dog ownership and I feel it portrays a dog as aggressive which Flynn is not. Anyone and everyone has stopped to fuss Flynn and he loves it, he just doesn't know any dogs other than our in house dogs and I think he is scared. I have always thought he is scared because at times when a dog has been barking in a house behind the closed front door he seems to up his pace to get past it and then keeps turning round looking back. In the situation he was in he couldn't run and I expect his best form of defence was attack. He has been given treats through the muzzle and then had it removed, being food orientated Flynn, he is very keen to pop his head in the muzzle for a treat and I think he would accept it quite readily as he did the head collar but not without getting something for it - he is a Mal after all! 

Lesson learned by me, I know his threshold distance, I know he can cope with other dogs at that distance but here was a dog he hasn't encountered before and it chose to mouth off at him and remain mouthing off the whole time I was trying to get him away. If Flynn had got at the dog it would have been my fault for not being able to control him, thankfully that didn't happen and I should take that with me knowing that even at his strongest he didn't manage to take me with him and I didn't let go. 

I think I will take him back a step to the Look At Me stage and work up to Look At That again, get him to focus more on me instead of the trigger. We have been in a situation on a walk before when we have had seven dogs appear all at once from various junctions and he has sat and focussed on me with just the occasional glance at the dogs.

It's so hard having a DA/FA dog and I envy those who simply have problems with recall, lead pulling etc. because this is so hard to handle at times and very exhausting all of the time. 

Thanks again for all your help, I will be reading through the posts again to take it all in.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

> ....
> 
> One thing I do know is such a usually well behaved dog as Flynn doesn't deserve this.......
> 
> ...


He doesn't "deserve" it? 

It's not a case of deserving? And the muzzle doesn't have to be a bad thing?
If you don't mind me saying... that's just your human hang up about the muzzle?

Flynn is a dog, he doesn't sit around thinking about what other dog's have over him, the fact that other dog's don't have to wear a muzzle etc...
He's a dog, he works with what he is given and does the best he can. We humans could learn alot from dogs in that way 

The muzzle is a way of making other owners more conscious of how they are letting their dogs behave towards your dog. You are making life easier for Flynn. In this way, the muzzle becomes the first main important thing in changing his interactions with other dogs.

You are also showing yourself to be a conscientious, thoughtful dog owner you cares about her dogs and walks and works with them responsibly.

It covers your back if there is ever an incident even if it isn't your fault (you are charged at my an out of control off lead dog for example).

And anyway the muzzle doesn't have to be horrid. 
Dogs that I have muzzle trained loved their muzzles. You can't just shove it on. You need to habituate him to it so that he LIKES wearing it.

I always free shape it, get a clicker out and kibble/mixed with some really high value yummy stuff.

By the end of the process you should be able to give a verbal cue and the dog will run towards you and shove his nose in the muzzle, while you clip the strap behind his ears/head. 
It's cool. I often make the verbal cue a "funny" one. 'Party hat' is my personal favourite. You start off your walk with a smile on your face.

Follow the guidelines in this video in order to teach Mr Flynn that muzzles are actually pretty awesome 

MUZZLE TRAINING

and here

CONDITIONED EMOTIONAL RESPONSE

Another tip I'd give you would be to cut some holes in the front "window" grid at the front of the muzzle, so you have a larger gap that you can pop treats through to reward him with.  Also take out the extra slide in panel.

Doing the above will make playing LAT and BAT games alot easier as you'll be able to better reward nice choices around other scary dogs.

If you don't like the standard baskerville. Have you tried the Baskerville ultra. Alot easier to shovel treats into, easier to drink from, lightweight. It has on OPTIONAL overhead strap- most people I know who use this muzzle don't bother with this as it is not needed but can useful for particularly broad headed breeds.










Having the right kit for the right dog can really make things easier. 

I'd scrap listening to anything Cesar Millan says. He couldn't recognize a stressed just under threshold dog. Why do you think he gets bitten so often?

Have you looked into BAT training for Flynn- it comes highly recommended. 
Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA

Have you heard of the DINOs campaign? DINOS (like Flynn ) are good dogs too   
DINOS: Dogs in Need of Space | Facebook


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm with Lemmsy. I introduced the muzzle to Rupert using the same method as Jean Donaldson shows in the video. I also introduced it to several dogs at class whose owners were adamant their dog would hate to wear a muzzle. Introduced properly the dog can actually see the muzzle as a positive thing.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Ooow thank you Lemmsy I loved the conditioned emotional response video and will do that with the muzzle also the guy with the muzzle training gave some tips I hadn't thought of. Flynn will take food from the muzzle and allow it on for a short while but I hadn't thought that it shouldn't be removed when he tries to take it off - if anything I was taking it off so as it didn't stress him 
He hasn't been out with it yet as he isn't used to it and I don't want to create bad experiences but with those two videos I will get down to some proper training tomorrow. 

I liked the BAT vid, it is just what Flynn has been doing but only when I feel he is approaching threshold. If he snorts, huffs or nods I know he is becoming unsettled and have walked him away from the trigger. The truoble with his fear of dogs is the reaction he may get from another dogs, as in the other day. If a dog sounds off at him like the cocker did then I suppose I can't expect him to just shrug it off. He used to react to bikes and kids on scooters/skate boards but we have conquered that now and I just click as they go past with no problems (he responds brilliantly to the clicker) he may not actually like them but he doesn't react to them any more. I suppose I expected the LAT game to eventually "cure" Flynn with his fear/aggression towards other dogs and that one day he would simply mingle with all dogs - not that easy eh?

Yep I don't like the muzzle, as I said it kinda says he is a nasty aggressive dog but after what he did the other day I feel, even though it may be a one off, that if he were ever to go above threshold with say a child on a bike and I had the same trouble holding him it's just not worth taking that risk - not for the child or for Flynn. 

Flynn means far too much for me to risk his safety and as I'm the one who ultimately has to look after him and keep him from harm I will just have to get over my hatred of the muzzle and see it like the saviour it could eventually be. Would I ever forgive myself if Flynn were to be in a situation where he accidentally bit someone? no I wouldn't and if he were taken away (like a Malamute on another forum was) I would never be able to live with that guilt - or without my Flynn.  So I will condition myself that the muzzle is good and stop being so negative about it!

Thanks again, am looking forward to doing some training tomorrow.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Just so Flynn doesn't feel alone








(please note: this isn't her muzzle-I gave it away she has the same as flynns but this was her modeling Barney's old to stop him eating outside)


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Here's Rupert enjoying himself while wearing his muzzle. He wasn't at all bothered by wearing one once accustomed to it and it didn't stop him enjoying trips to the man eating nettle field.

















You can get brightly coloured muzzles that seem a little less aggressive looking than the regular brownish ones.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Love the pics of those guys  Maya looks like she has a dish on her face, lol and Rupert looks like he couldn't care less. Lovely pics. 

If I were stronger and Flynn a more normal Mallie size I wouldn't muzzle him but as he has shown me just how strong and determined he can be I think it's for the best.

If I ever find myself with a burly bloke (not likely ) I'll leave the muzzle off but til then he will have to wear one.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lemmsy said:


> And TBH- I think all of the main leading behaviourists in the field of B-MOD and training would do too!


That is just the point, they don't.

The term _fear aggression _is, like _separation anxiety_, vastly overused and abused term which has been devalued, misunderstood and misused in most situations.

If a sentient being is afraid of something they do not go out of their way to attack it UNLESS the trigger for the fear has penetrated their threshold of tolerance eg personal space.

They will become DEFENSIVE if this threshold has been penetrated however so the simplest expression of this is when the "4f" issue raises its head with dogs on lead etc, they do not have the choice of flight so they will often fight.

More often it is an issue IME that the dog has no impulse control, is over aroused, has been handled incorrectly etc etc

In any event debate can continue ad infinitum, the point is, if an owner does not have the physical strength, skills, knowledge, ability, training or experience to handle any animal that has the potential to cause injury then it is an accident waiting to happen, which was my main point.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Yes, it IS their responsibility to *move - * move their dog away, get between their dog
> & the Dog-Aggro / Dog-Reactive dog to block their visual access, turn their dog's BACK to the reactive dog,
> or otherwise do what they can to halt the escalation, & minimize their dog's own additions to the event
> [like staring, posturing, hackling, barking, jacking the tail up over the back, etc].
> ...




NO dog, whether muzzled or not should be approached by OFF LEAD dogs until and unless invited.

However, most of us live in the real world (as does the OP) and know that the world is made up of incompetent, irresponsible dog owners who cannot or will not control their dogs (see the many threads on this subject almost daily), thus people like the OP have to walk in isolated areas, alone and thus increase the the effect of SEC and thus the arousal of the dog.

So it all becomes a vicious circle.

Muzzling a dog is not the be all and end all for such dogs, neither is it something that should be dismissed.

However concentrating on the equipment rather than overall behavioural modification of the dog and the skillset of the owner is not terribly useful, IMHO.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

I just want to say.. there are fools out there that see your dog on the lead..and with a muzzle on... and to be honest they think.. Right that dog is muzzled it can't bite mine.. so its fine for mine to get in its face.. Even though I have asked people to get hold of there dogs..

Doesn't matter what we do.. Someone always knows better..


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

momentofmadness said:


> ...there are fools out there [who'll] see [that] your dog on-lead, & [wears] a muzzle... & to be honest, they think,
> *"Right, that dog is muzzled & can't bite mine, so it's fine for mine to get in [her/his] face."*
> Even tho I've asked people to get hold of their dogs. Doesn't matter what we do; Someone always knows better.


sadly true.  We can try; shouting, _"Oi, lummox?! Call yer dog, please!", _ may not go down 
as the most-polite possible first encounter, but sometimes ya gotta do just that. Some folks only get the concept 
when it's couched in blunt, clear speech. :nonod:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Bet they wouldn't be so flippant with their dog If the muzzle hung loosely from Flynns neck  probably think he's a killer and slipped tbe muzzle. Wonder how many would take the chance.


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## momentofmadness (Jul 19, 2008)

hahah well maybe thats the answer..

Let the muzzle hang round the neck when questioned.. Yeah it got out of the muzzle when that bloke about 5 mins ago let his Rottie in his face.. he is on the way to the vets now..

Obviously.. I dont condone this.. But some are that daft out there....


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## spaniel04 (Nov 27, 2011)

Malmum, I found this article The Stigma attached to muzzles and dogs who wear them | Luke The Greatest Dane

It might make you feel a bit better about your dog wearing a muzzle.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

spaniel04 said:


> Malmum, I found this article The Stigma attached to muzzles and dogs who wear them | Luke The Greatest Dane
> 
> It might make you feel a bit better about your dog wearing a muzzle.


I really like that article!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Thank you so much for that link spaniel04  this last sentence is exactly why I am muzzle training Flynn 

*[Quote;
I fixed him Im the great dog trainer who turned my dog hating dog into a dog lover, or a dog who hates kids into a daycare stalker Because when you do that, its not just the public you are risking to prove that pointits your best friend.]*

If he ever bit someone and had to be PTS - no matter how unlikely that is, it would kill me I'm sure to have to deal with that, knowing I allowed it to happen. At the end of the day what do I care what complete strangers think of my boy as long as he still has me and me him!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

When I decided to muzzle Roxy, I felt terrible about it. Initially I felt I'd failed her but also I was worried about how people would perseive her with the muzzle.

We had a couple of incidents where she had snapped at peeople we had passed on our walks (this was very infrequent but enough to make me worry).

I started taking her out with her muzzle but did learn that my perception of her muzzle was the problem, in reality this was keeping others & her safe. I would never have forgiven myself had she bit someone.

She has become alot better with this, she is only reactive with people (& dogs) whne approached on her lead. She has had farm workers (when we have been in the fields on walks) go over to her & she is ok but leashed is a different matter, I would still be wary


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Flynn is fine with people but not some dogs. Since I know of a Mal that was taken from his owner when an incident occurred on a walk I won't take that chance. Flynn's my soul mate and I have to protect him whatever people think of him. I know he's just a frightened lil guy and attack is sometimes the best form of defence, especially to an animal.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> Flynn is fine with people but not some dogs.
> [SNIP]...
> I know he's just a frightened lil guy, & 'attack is sometimes the best form of defence', especially to an animal.


yes - 
almost-all aggro has its roots in fear, not 'dominance' / bossiness, confidence, etc.

a survey by AVSAB of vet-behaviorists returned data saying over-85% of aggro-cases were fear-based, 
not *dominant* or even confident dogs; they're just scared of the trigger & react to send it/them away.
 i hate to see someone punish a scared dog, yanking on a choke or prong, flooding the poor thing, 
they yell or scold, & all the while the poor dog only wants to get away!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

No need to worry there, Flynn has never been punished in his life. in fact I feel rather guilty now because I feel that I may have loved him too much and made a baby of him. He has always been swamped in cuddles and kisses and now I worry I have never wanted to let go of the pup and actually treated him like the adult he is. All he really knows in life is me and our times out together we have never shared a walk with anyone.

I am wondering if a professional dog walker may be an idea to get him away from me, that's if I can trust one and knowing what a worrier I am that's doubtful!


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Benjie wears a muzzle whenever me and my sister take him out, as well as a Dogmatic - purely because he does react to other dogs, he reacts slightly less with me and my sister than he does with the OH and his family. But I don't take any nonsense from him, I can't afford to. He does get let off lead but is put straight back on when we see another dog - his recall is fab, even from dogs in the distance. We're not quite sure what sets him off, but after he has walked with dogs for about 10 minutes he is fine with them. But I am the only person that has attempted this, OH's family are far too nervous to try it. And with the nerves I daren't suggest it to them.










The muzzle doesn't subdue him, it is simply there as he can easily overpower me if he wanted to, even with a dogmatic on, and if for some reason - a dog pops out of nowhere, the leash slips or he does overpower me - then at least the other dog is safe from major injuries - IMO. Although he has gotten on with other dogs and will walk with them after he's stopped his aggression, barking, lunging etc, there is always the chance he could bite and I have no hesitation that he will. So it's a risk I would rather not take.

Good luck with the muzzle training, personally I would swap to a greyhound muzzle - there is more room for him and you can feed treats to them easier than in a baskerville.


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