# Life Expectancy of Cats



## FEWill (Sep 2, 2009)

The life expectancy of cats has many different factors, but there is one common thread among most of these factors; you can control them. Cats are much different that dogs when it comes to breeds, as large breeds of dogs live a much shorter life span than medium or small breeds. There is no real breed difference in cats concerning life expectancy, but there are still several factors that are involved. And as the owner, you can literally control most all of them.

Cats today live a much longer life than they did just a few decades ago and by a spread that is surprising to most owners. Less than twenty years ago, the average life span of a cat, regardless of the most ideal of conditions, was just five to six years of age on the average. However, today the average age is as high as fifteen years old or more in several cases. Some cats live into their twenties.

There are several factors that can and have indeed improved this life span, but there are two extremely important factors that are the main contributors. The two major factors are where your cat lives; indoors or outdoors, and their weight. If your cat is overweight, some experts suggest it can take as many as three to four years off of their overall life expectancy.

Indoors or Outdoors:

Life expectancy of cats has no one single more important factor than where your cat lives. In fact, the numbers are so starting that unless they are kept as strictly a working cat on a farm, ranch, or another environment to control mice, you would have to question why you would ever allow your cat to live outdoors. Several years of research has indicated that domesticated indoor cats live an average lifespan of between twelve and eighteen years of age, while their counterparts, live a lifespan about one third of this time frame; only between four and five years. 

Outdoor cats face several dangers that indoor cats will never face. It is estimated that over one half of all of the outdoors cats are killed in accidents such as getting hit by a car, or are attacked and killed by other animals, including dogs or other wild cats. However, cats that may live most of their lives outside still face several other dangers that indoor cats are protected from, such as disease. Outdoor cats are much more likely to be exposed to bacterial, viral, and fungal infections, as well as other wild animals that are infected. 

Indoor cats, on the other hand, have virtually no chance of being hurt or killed in an accident. Even if you let your cat out for only a brief period to roam, the risk increases dramatically. It made sound odd to some owners, but there is absolutely no reason you cannot leash your cat and walk them. By doing this simple step, it dramatically increases their life expectancy. However, even if your cat is an indoor only cat and will not be exposed to potential viruses, you still need to have them vaccinated. 

Obesity: 

Life expectancy of cats next biggest enemy is obesity. Although genetics and breeds can play some role in obesity, it is not near as common as it is with dogs. Mixed breeds seem to have a much higher chance of becoming obese than do purebreds, but it can still be controlled. 
Regardless of the breed or purity, most cats begin their trek to obesity between the ages of five and six years of age. If an owner is aware of this tendency, they are much better prepared to combat it. However, it is also very important to understand the difference between overweight and obese. 

If your cat is simply overweight, you can tell this by checking their ribs. If they show only a slight increase of fat over the ribs but you can still them, they are overweight, not obese. If they are obese, both their ribs as well as their backbone are either disappearing or have totally disappeared, as layers of fat have overtaken them. If this is the case, it is time to react. If you do not, your cat has a very little chance of living their full lifespan.

However, there are several other things you can do as well to help extend their lifespan as it will not always be possible to have your cat indoors at all times. 

Declawing:

Declawing will also be a debated topic, but when it comes to the life expectancy of cats, there is no real debate. If your cat will live every minute of their life indoors, then by all means declaw them. However, if you let your cat outdoors at all, even with you at their side and supervising, declawing takes away the only natural defense they have. If they are attacked by another cat or a dog, they will now have absolutely no method of protecting themselves. 

Spaying and Neutering:

Life expectancy of cats also has a much better chance of extension if your cat is neutered or spayed. Once this has been done, cats are much more likely to stick close to home. It also preforms one other critical task; it takes away most of your cats natural aggression. If your cat is not as aggressive, they will be a lot less prone to get in a fight and be injured. However, it also accomplishes something else just as important; it reduces the chances of become pregnant and then dealing with litters that were not planned for. 

Grooming:

Grooming is not just for show; it is for the overall health of your cat. If your cat is a long haired breed, it could do wonders for their overall health and thus their life expectancy. If a cat is not properly groomed at least two to three times a year by a professional or by an owner that really understands the process, it can develop into health issues. Matting as well as a myriad of harmful material can easily become caught in their fur. Even indoor only cats need to be properly groomed and as meticulous as cats are, most hairballs are self-induced; and because of this, they need to be groomed. 

Fresh Water:

One of life expectancy of cats biggest allies is a continual and always fresh supply of water. Cats can live days without food, but if they lose as much as ten percent of their bodily fluid, their health is at risk. If they lose fifteen percent or higher, it is now not just at risk, it is compromised and in severe danger. There are several nutrients that are critical in your cats daily life, but all of them combined are not as important as fresh water. If you do not have a self-filling natural water source for your cat that supplies at least several days&#8217; worth of water, buy one as soon as possible. You never know what life will bring and when you may be detained for a day or two. 

Trash:

Keep your cat away from the trash; period. There is not a cat alive that will not explore your trash if given an opportunity. However, although discarded food is dangerous enough for your cat, your trash contains all types of potential poisons. You may try your entire life to train your cat to stay away from the garbage, but quit wasting your time. Given the chance, nature is nature and they will go for the garbage. Invest in a trash receptacle where the lid locks. 

Nutrients:

Outside of fresh water, the two most important nutrients for improving the life expectancy of cats are Taurine and Omega 3 fatty acids. Omega 3 fatty acids benefit several parts of your cats body, especially their brain. Your cats brain is made of 60 percent fat and needs this nutrient to function properly. The cell membranes of all of your cats nerve cells as well as the sheaths that surround them also reply on a constant source of this nutrient. Supplementing it will ensure that the supply is never depleted. 

Taurine stays in a free form, different form other essential amino acids, and your cat has several tissues that are rich in taurine, including the heart and the central nervous system. It is also critical in the formation of biliary salts. While most animals can simply utilize other acids to perform the functions of taurine, your cat cannot. For this reason, they most have it in their diet in ample supplies or supplemented.

Summary:

The life expectancy of cats has changed dramatically over the last twenty years. It can also be controlled if you take some very simple precautions with your cat in their early years and then extend them into their mid years. As they reach their golden years, both of you will receive the rewards of a much longer lifespan.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Hmmm, interesting post Frank. Thanks for pulling it all together.

However, could you give us some of the sources for some of your stats? I have looked at life expectancy of cats and have found very little that wasn't just based on hear-say on someone else's blog or unreferenced article.

I have also heard the opposite. That cats nowadays succumb to diseases more often that are linked to their diet. For example, hyperthyrodism has apparently drastically increased as has kidney disease. But again, that is just what some people say on their sites or what some vets speculate.

I am also intrigued to know how they would have information re life expectancy as really some type of cat census would be needed to provide such info.

In terms of your outdoor/indoor argument, I don't agree with this statement Frank:



FEWill said:


> Indoor cats, on the other hand, have virtually no chance of being hurt or killed in an accident.


I can see where you are coming from but accidents can happen anywhere - they are just different types of accidents. Just because you leave your cat at home doesn't mean that it might not come to harm. Think about the cat eating something in the home, it becoming lodged in the cat's stomach etc. Think about the cat who accidentally wraps the string of its favourite toy around its neck and strangles itself.

However, I was also somewhat surprised that you said:



FEWill said:


> If your cat will live every minute of their life indoors, then by all means declaw them.


 A highly controversial sentence, particularly for readers in the UK, where it is illegal. Anyone even remotely thinking about this for only one second should do a quick search to see what is involved. Facts behind declawing your cat and DECLAWING: What You Need to Know

Re the nutrients, isn't it even more basic than taurine and omega 3s? What about proteins? And meat-based proteins? Isn't a good diet the most fundamental building block to a healthy, species-approprite diet, which include taurine, omega 3 but also so much more?

And let's not forget; you can do it all right and make sure that your groomed, spayed cat stays at home with a perfect diet, fresh water, no access to household waste, only for it to get cancer, kidney disease, liver disease, heart disease. Unfortunately, sometimes life just sucks.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> declawing takes away the only natural defense they have.


Defence is the issue? :scared: Would you take your child to have every one of it's fingers amputated at the first knuckle? I know hobbs has already mentioned it but lets leave no doubt about what's involved in this for those who don't want to check the link.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Hi Frank,

Well put together post,

However.There really are 4 catergories cats fall into, indoor cats who never go out, indoor/outdoor cats who split their time between your home and occassional bouts of outside adventure,outdoor cats who spend the majority of their time outside and come in for the occassional meal, then feral or unowned cats that aviod human contact and interaction as much as possible.

Indoor/outdoor cats have a far longer lifespan than you might think, as millions of pet owners know,cats are highly adaptable,they have learned to live alongside, cars, dogs and people.

Whilst I agree there is an increased risk,to your cat if it goes outside, I do not agree with your figures,and I would like to have a look at your referencing source. 

I guess it will differ from country to country and you might want to take that into account when posting such a genralised post.

It is very common in the Uk for indoor/outdoor cats to have lived beyond 15 years despite the increased risk.

Unlike America they have fewer preditors,yes they have some like foxes,badgers,dogs,but we do not have half the risks American cats have,venomous snakes,bears,large wildcats,coyote,wolves to name a few.

And many indoor/outdoor cats are all in perfect health and don't go wandering to far from there own gardens.

As for eating out of the trash,here in the UK our bins or trash containers, are now large wheelie bins with quite a large lid,so eating out of the trash for household pets is'nt as easy as it used to be,I am not saying its impossible for it to happen, bin lids left unclosed, over filled etc. Just dont think it is as common for a indoor/outdoor cat to get a sneaky route through the bin.


I think you need to re-look at this, since your post has some one sided genralisations about life spans,rather than a complete picture. 

In the past people have tended to look at lifespan and ignore reality so as to encourage indoor cat life, but the fact remains despite the increased risk to indoor/outdoor cats they are still living long and healthy lives.
Yes there are still tragic road statitics,or deaths from attacks etc,but as Hobbs has said in his response,there are risks to health to indoor cats also from diet,indoor accidents also.

Your post is a little mis-leading in terms of your stats.Whilst I agree there is a significant drop in lifespan for an outdoor cat,the figures used in your post are geared, generally to the lifespan for a full outdoor-cared or a feral/unowned cat - don't generalize them please, since there is a really big difference between indoor/outdoor cats and a full outdoor cat,almost ten years difference in terms of lifespan.

I think what also needs to be taken into account in terms of life span data,is our education as Pet owners, More and more owners are educating themselves in terms of Pet health, nutritional needs, exercise,dangers etc.
More company,s are investing money in reasearch and development into Pet care and nutrition,veterinary medicine and care has moved on considerably.

Pet owners have changed,where as 40 years ago a pet was classed as a pet now the majority of Pet owners see them as an extension to there family.

Please dont generalise frank,whilst I enjoy your posts,I have noticed alot of them tend to be vastly generalised, and you do not take into account the vast difference between country to country,in your findings..

As for the de-clawing comment,thats for another debate.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

FEWill said:


> Declawing:
> 
> Declawing will also be a debated topic, but when it comes to the life expectancy of cats, there is no real debate. If your cat will live every minute of their life indoors, then by all means declaw them.


Frank, I know it's been said twice already now... but I am shocked you are endorsing such a barbaric practice.

I agree on the whole with the rest of your post, but that one bit horrifies me!


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## ellie.p (Mar 5, 2010)

Well put together post, agree with it on the whole (especially the parts about obesity and spaying/neutering), but...



FEWill said:


> If your cat will live every minute of their life indoors, then by all means declaw them.


It's been said before but I don't think it CAN be said too many times. Declawing is a horrible practice and is not just a simple operation as many think, but a pretty big surgery when it comes down to it. And I can't imagine the pain the cats must be in afterward when they have to walk on their toes.

I'm sorry, but I can't see why _anyone_ could advocate that, even for indoors only cats.

Plus, even indoor cats sometimes slip out and having claws to fight could be the difference between getting home or not.

There are much better alternatives to declawing that should ALWAYS be considered first - trimming cats claws, providing scratching posts and toys, even these Soft Paws, which I still find very strange and not ideal but at the very least would mean your cat isn't going through a major surgery!

Your information is, on the whole, very good and very informative, and I'm sure a lot of cat owners (myself included) would trust your advice. That's why I think it's important to let people know of the alternatives, rather than simply saying "by all means declaw them".


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## Shimacat (Feb 14, 2010)

Which sources are you using for stats? I find your statement "less than 20 years ago, the average life expectancy...was 5-6 years" frankly unbelievable. I got my first cat 25 years ago and the expected lifespan of a cat in the UK then was around 15 years.

While your posts are informative, I find the tone of them rather off-putting. You appear to be posting as a source of rich information to all cat owners. However, you make sweeping generalisations based on an American perspective. This makes the information you post useful to a fellow American but your information is often not applicable to those based in other parts of the world. 

If you are to continue posting these sorts of posts, why not state they are made from an American perspective and also publish your information/research sources?


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## AnnaK (Aug 25, 2010)

Ok I will state from the beginning that I am having a bad morning, so I am trying to remain calm but may not manage it. Whilst I am sure many people will appreciate the fact that you have pulled together a large amount of info you have neglected several things:

1. Indoor cats whose owners smoke have a greatly reduced life expectancy and are susceptible to more illness than outdoor cats.

2. We do not have the predators in England that you have in parts of America, nor do we have as many cars.

3. Declawing!!!! WTF. It is completely barbaric and I for one refuse to believe that any pet owner who has it done really loves their pet more than their furniture.

The fact that you have said that this is fine negates for me any other point you are making. 

I am by no means saying that people from other countries are unwelcome, it is always great to have different perspectives, but we need to be aware of what the laws are in countries other than our own and not make sweeping generalisations.


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## Chez87 (Aug 11, 2010)

All my life my family and I have owned indoor/outdoor cats who split their time between being in and being out, and only one (out of about 12) has been hit by a car. The rest have lived to be 14+ years old when they died of disease/old age.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

The idea of declawing a cat is as repulsive as pulling off my own fingernails  I have a sixteen year old cat at the moment and she spent the first half of her life out door and now is indoor she is in perfect health, so I think it would depend on there immune system as much as circumstances as it would for humans.


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## Philski (May 28, 2010)

I'm not sure where you're coming from, Frank. You have started several threads in a similarly pseudo-scientific vein, citing various generalised statistics that most cat owners disagree with, including me. I know that you recently lost your dog, Jasper, but I don't know whether you have cats, or have in the past? I'm beginning to think you might be a bit like a pub bore who will pontificate on a range of subjects based on 'some things I read somewhere'. This isn't a personal attack - I'm only commenting on what you have written here, on this forum.



AnnaK said:


> 3. Declawing!!!! WTF. It is completely barbaric and I for one refuse to believe that any pet owner who has it done really loves their pet more than their furniture.
> 
> The fact that you have said that this is fine negates for me any other point you are making.


I am 100% with Anna on this. The moment I read the part of your post that, effectively, endorses declawing, I switched off. I don't actually know what you wrote in the rest of your post, but any further comments you make that are supposedly in the interests of our cats carry no weight at all. I realise that the thrust of your original post has been derailed because of this, but that's too bad.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

AnnaK said:


> 1. Indoor cats whose owners smoke have a greatly reduced life expectancy and are susceptible to more illness than outdoor cats.


Sorry, are you saying indoor cats exposed to second hand cigarette smoke have a higher mortality rate than outdoor cats on the whole have ?? Can you back that up with some kind of facts maybe? With the amount of cats who get killed in road traffic accidents, poisoned, killed by bigger cats or dogs, fall prey to gangs of yobs, being exposed to diseased animals outdoors…. You are telling us that second hand cigarette smoke is MORE damaging than all of the above combined? I would really like to see some reputable statistics to prove this claim you make. I can walk into any shelter tomorrow and find a freezer load of dead cats scraped off the road JUST this weekend, and another freezer load scraped of the road in the last 7 days… I would be hard pushed in that same shelter to find one dead cat through second hand cigarette smoke.



AnnaK said:


> 2. We do not have the predators in England that you have in parts of America, nor do we have as many cars.


While I will agree that there are more cats in the US than in the UK, I am not sure what that has to do with anything???? There are more people in the US too…. So shouldn't cat ownership percentages be reflected per head of population and not just "more cats there than here"? Or on the amount of space available to cats? The USA is a LOT bigger than the UK too. I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the size of the cat population. 10 cats in a small caravan are surely at a higher risk than 20 cats in a mansion.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm just going to say I can not believe that anyone who cares about animals full stop would think declawing is in anyway acceptable. By typing such a thing it makes everything else you typed disperse like little ants running off a page.


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## AnnaK (Aug 25, 2010)

Tje

As I already stated at the beginning of my post I was in a bad mood and I therefore did not fully clarify my points, neither did Frank.

I will be specific, I got my information from several vet run websites, from my father who is a Professor of Animal Health and Food safety and from our own vet. However I should have said I am talking about indoor only cats and indoor/oudoor cats. In these specifics it is the risk of Feline Lymphoma that is greatly increased as is the risk of asthma and many other diseases. Here is a link to one particular site:
Feline Lymphoma Linked to Secondhand Smoke: Risk of Lymphoma in Cats Twice As High in Pets Who Live With Smokers.

As for the cars, well yes maybe not as informed as it could be but once I saw the declawing comment I became less rational than I normally am once I thought of the cats and kittens that go through the pain and mutilation.

So disregard that one if you like, I am not interested in arguing about that point or in getting into an indoor v outdoor debate. I do however stand by my comments about cats and passive smoking.

I have always found your posts to be interesting and informative and I appreciate that you have had far more experience than me in the tragedy of cats killed in road traffic accidents.

I apologise that my anger at the op made me less than clear, I will not make that mistake again and I see I will need to calm down before I post, thus to avoid being jumped on to explain myself.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

To write such a lengthy and supposedly fact driven post needs references.
It needs also some idea of who the guru is who is actually telling us all what to do.

It also assumes that none of these things were known about 20 Years ago.

So 20 years ago they didn't know about, cars, predators, obesity, fresh water, trash, smoking, spaying/neutering, taurine, nutrition?

Of course they did.

I feel that the increase in life expectancy if indeed it has occurred is probably due to the increased provision and expansion of feline veterinary services and the upgrading of cats from critters who mostly did their own thing to the beloved family member that they are today.
Some people always had that mentality, but it is more acceptable for everyone to dote on their cat and get the best treatment available for it when it is ill.

As for declawing. :glare:::thumbdown::cursing::nono: and most of all :sad:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

AnnaK said:


> Tje
> 
> As I already stated at the beginning of my post I was in a bad mood and I therefore did not fully clarify my points, neither did Frank.


Anna K, no worries. I totally agree that if a human is exposed to 24-7 passive smoking that human must be at more risk of a passive smoking related illness than a human who is only exposed to passive smoking 5 hours a day or one who is never exposed to it  so I would assume it must be the same for cats. The more you are exposed to a carcinogen, the more harm it can do.

So while I will agree that passive smoking so risky for pets, so are the outdoors. And I would imagine the outdoors are a great deal more risky than 2nd hand smoke. Which of course isn't to say that many outdoor/indoor cats don't lead long and healthy lives (but in all fairness, many cats belonging to smokers do too).

But I do know what you mean the declawing comment just . :

All rational thoughts went out the window with me when I first read that.

I like FEWill and his articles, and like many others in here I learn from them. You start to look up to certain posters, and although I dont agree with him on everything I really respect FEWill. So it was a double shock someone like him would condone declawing. A triple shock actually because last week he posted a long post about how micro-chipping was dangerous and we shouldnt do it.

Sometimes this places confuses me, someone who is against micro-chipping can be for (or at least not against) declawing. The mind boggles!!


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## thecatsmother (Aug 23, 2010)

Tje said:


> Originally Posted by AnnaK
> "2. We do not have the predators in England that you have in parts of America, nor do we have as many cars."
> 
> While I will agree that there are more cats in the US than in the UK, I am not sure what that has to do with anything???? There are more people in the US too. So shouldnt cat ownership percentages be reflected per head of population and not just more cats there than here? Or on the amount of space available to cats? The USA is a LOT bigger than the UK too. I am not sure what point you are trying to make with the size of the cat population. 10 cats in a small caravan are surely at a higher risk than 20 cats in a mansion.


She said more CARS not more cats :001_cool:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

thecatsmother said:


> She said more CARS not more cats :001_cool:


lol, so she did!! doh @ me!! but.... even if they have more cars.... they have more roads on which to drive them.... more space in general to live, so I don't think the "more cars" arguements pans out. But I will pay attention in the future, lol, that I don't get my cats and my cars mixed up. Next thing you know I will be bottle feeding my Volkswagen Golf and putting petrol in my kitten :lol:

Sorry AnnaK.... I realllllly misread that.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

Tje said:


> lol, so she did!! doh @ me!! but.... even if they have more cars.... they have more roads on which to drive them.... more space in general to live, so I don't think the "more cars" arguements pans out. But I will pay attention in the future, lol, that I don't get my cats and my cars mixed up. Next thing you know I will be bottle feeding my Volkswagen Golf and putting petrol in my kitten :lol:
> 
> Sorry AnnaK.... I realllllly misread that.


:lol::lol::thumbup::lol::thumbup:


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## AnnaK (Aug 25, 2010)

"Next thing you know I will be bottle feeding my Volkswagen Golf and putting petrol in my kitten"

Sorry Tje don't know how to quote properly!

That made me laugh. There are so many variables aren't there when it comes to cats and owners and where we live and type of cat etc.

I am new to this forum so the only other post I have seen by the OP is the micro-chipping one.

I think, or would like to, that although all posters to and readers of this forum will have differing opinions on how best to care for our beloved cats, we all agree that declawing is wrong wrong wrong.


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## Iky316 (Aug 13, 2010)

*@FEWill*

Let me get this right.... so your *against* microchipping cats but *for *declawing them?? You have a unique view on feline health care my friend.

I think the use of life expectancy rates in any country is a general sweeping statement.. Everyone's situation will vary on where they live.

I do however, think the headline points you mentioned do play a part in caring for your pets and providing them a good quality of life. i.e. diet, health care, grooming etc.. but pets also require lots and lots of love and devotion too.

In regards to whether you want your cat to be indoor/outdoor or abit of both, there are dangers everywhere and with all the best will in the world you can't account for accidents (thats why theyre called accidents).

Every cat or pet owner should carry out a risk assessment of their property and the surrounding areas. They should establish the potential hazards and either eliminate them or reduce the risk posed by them and then make a decision on how you want your pet to live (indoor or both indoor and outdoor).

There is nothing wrong with indoor only cats or indoor/outdoor cats. It depends on the owners situation and concerns that they may have for their pets.

If you feel your cat is safe to go outside then let it go outside, if you feel its safer inside then keep it inside.. Just always be alert to the ever changing potential hazards and be proactive in reducing/minimizing them and don't be afraid to change tact either.

We can never eliminate accidents but we can try our best to reduce the risks and make sure our pets have the best, most enjoyable life we can possibly provide whilst they are with us.

Everyones situation is different and they should act in accordance with that.

Thanks for reading.

Iky:thumbup:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

AnnaK said:


> I am new to this forum so the only other post I have seen by the OP is the micro-chipping one.


FEWills articles are normally very balanced... it's only really this one and the anti micro-chipping one that have been... well.... (for sake of a better word) "out there".



AnnaK said:


> I think, or would like to, that although all posters to and readers of this forum will have differing opinions on how best to care for our beloved cats, we all agree that declawing is wrong wrong wrong.


Totally agree there are very many roads and they all lead to Rome whether we feed wet or dry or raw, whether we go in for preventative worming of cats or not, annual booster vaccinations or not, indoor only or combination of both indoors and out, early neuter or not there is always wisdom on both sides of all these fences.

Declawing however is just plain barbaric. There is (surely!) no other side to it. It can never be right (except in the miniscule amount of cases where it is medical necessity).

FEWill is the sunshine state getting too hot for you, all that sun giving you sun stroke or something?? lol.


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## FEWill (Sep 2, 2009)

Hi all,

Thanks for the great feedback


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Surely we can all agree that declawing cats is wrong and indoor cats generally live longer then outdoor cats??(statistically)
Has done me no good at all though as I lost 2 indoor cats this year. Patrick (12yrs) to cancer and Frisbee (9yrs) to FIP, an illness that is more prevelant in multi cat households and often in indoor cats.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

FEWill said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for the great feedback


that's it? that's your response?

Will you either edit your original post to remove the part where you clearly condone declawing or at least have the good grace to defend your stance on the matter.


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## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

FEWill said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks for the great feedback


I agree with Tje, your response is a little lame.

I think if you post something, that is a highly controversial topic, you have a duty to defend what you believe in.

Recently I was involved in a microchipping debate,which turned into a referencing debate, I believed one thing a few believed another, I stood up for what I believed in even though later I realised I was wrong, I later even sent Hobbs an apology because I was in the wrong.

But at least I tried to defend my views and opinions.

Surely when you read everyones responses,you must have thought more than,thanks for the great feedback, how way Frank let us know what you truely thought.


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## HollyM (Feb 21, 2010)

Unfortunately though, due to the time difference in Florida, we will have to wait with bated breath, untill 4/5am for a response! I don't think i can hold out that long!!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> I think if you post something, that is a highly controversial topic, you have a duty to defend what you believe in.


This thread was started by the OP, as an essay on the "life expectancy of cats", it was presented as a statement of fact and a "reference article".

With any "paper" presented there is peer review and as that is what has happened here, the author needs to back up and defend his statements and not hide behind a sarcastic comment.

FeWill
If you set yourself up as being some sort of sage, then you need to be there when your statements are challenged, otherwise you come across as a cut and paste bull*****er or as Philski said "like a pub bore who will pontificate on a range of subjects based on 'some things I read somewhere'." 
and not someone who has really thought about and stands by what they have written.


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## Philski (May 28, 2010)

Agreed, Lauren. I don't want to make any personal remarks against Frank, I don't know him nor will I ever meet him - _but I don't know where he is coming from._

Frank - are you a cat owner? Are you involved with animal medicine? Or are you an academic who is involved with researching this sort of stuff? A point of reference would help greatly if you hope to instigate any worthwhile discussions on these subjects. Most, if not all posters here tend to discuss these things as pet owners, concerned or otherwise; I am mystified about these threads that you start, why you start them, and what the purpose is - you never seem to get very involved with the discussions you begin, although there is usually a nugget or two of controversy that seems to be aimed at generating heated debate (declawing in this one, 'more information will be revealed in time' in the microchipping thread, etc...).

In conclusion, Frank - who are you, and what do you want here? You are starting to look a bit like a mildly sophisticated troll.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Philski said:


> In conclusion, Frank - who are you, and what do you want here? You are starting to look a bit like a mildly sophisticated troll.


that very thought went through my head earlier today.... FEWill is getting to be like a troll, in the "hit and run" aspects of his postings... and the the little nuggets of controversy he keeps laying. He certainly doesn't approach debate in the way the rest of us do (as cat owners or breeders or fosterers or just well meaning interested parties).

Lauren001 -- you hit the nail on the head when you said FEWill presnted his stuff as reference articles.

Most of us make posts, we post a post or an opinion. FEWill posts artciles. Most of us it's quite obvious we are just mere pet owners (breeders, fosterers) ...FEWill it's not so clear.

He certainly has set himself up as some kind of authority on cats, and I don't mind that... to a certain extent many of us do that.... but I am getting increasingly more pi$$ed off that he posts THE most outrageous things then doesn't defend them in the slightest, or wont even be polite enough to answer questions asked by other people.

If I come off as a massive bore and a total know-it-all on the subject of orphanned kittens... at least I will state openly where I coming from and admit that while I have zero vetrinary training, I have probably bottle fed more kittens than 100 vets put together. Other foster mums in here are qualified vetrinary nurses and often enough I will point people in their direction when I feel out of my depth. And I think its very important that anyone reading a post I make about bottle feeding kittens does realise that I have ZERO qualifications but just a lot of hands on experience with bottle feeding kittens.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't want to appear like I'm jumping onto an anti-Frank bandwagon here - but I did ask quite a while back on one of Frank's threads what the purpose was of the link he always placed at the bottom of his posts which is to a commercial pet products related web site. I never got an answer.

On reading parts of the web link it's pretty obvious to me that Frank is involved with the commercial operation in the link. Just a quick read through some of the site clearly illustrates that, the most recent example which springs to mind being Frank's thoughts on microchipping... which are completely reflected in the "advice" given on the commercial site on the same subject.

I'm afraid for this reason I stopped even reading Franks occasional posts as I considered them a bit of a convoluted way of merely placng an advertising link.

The latest comment on declawing just confirms that even more in my mind.


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## AnnaK (Aug 25, 2010)

Yup GSkinner I think you are right.
Having followed the link and then Googling "Liquid Vits + F Will" brings up multitude of articles on many different websites worldwide. All link back to the Liquid Vits site, the small amount of info about the author has underneath it an "about the author" button. Pressing this takes one to an Anerican site selling pet medication.

I am not saying for one minute that joining many forums is wrong, or putting out there whatever one wants, that is both the wonderful and terrible thing about the internet.

What I do find wrong is posting articles containing misinformation, outdated information and downright (declawing) barbaric opinions and then refusing to engage beyond a "thanks" or a "did you like it?" or in the case of the mention of declawing "well it's legal in America"! 

And he calls himself an animal lover! 
You mention FEWill that you did an MBA and that you wanted to continue with the "ethical approach". Well you got the business side down pat, the ethics...no, no, no.

Since joining this site I have found so many helpful, concerned, friendly people, some experts, some with years of experience, some like me just starting out, some with different opinions to mine, but ALL willing to discuss, learn, admit when they don't know and if they don't point me in the direction of someone who does. Sometimes even just to "virtually" hold my hand and sympathise.

You, imo are none of these things.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There's also the issue of copyright. Cutting and pasting chunks of articles without the proper references and putting your own name to it isn't the smartest move.


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## Philski (May 28, 2010)

In all fairness, I don't think there's any evidence that Frank has been cut 'n pasting his articles.


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

If you read his other thread on insulin, where he is getting an equally hard time, you see that comments about declawing have given him food for thought. 

Personally I think every single one of us have asked him to explain on three threads now. Hopefully he will start engaging and will stop pawing us off with his platitudes. I doubt it but hope springs eternal - even on forums.

I do agree with WL though there is only so much point in having a go at what he is saying without him getting back to us.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Personally I would rather all this pseudo-scientific reference "articles" written by FeWill, expressing his often unfounded ideas, clearly to advertise his business be removed and deleted. 

So although no-one really wants threads removed, the fact that anyone could read them on here and think they are all fact due to his style of writing, is very scary. IMO

He can debate and discuss like the rest of us, but those "articles" are misleading.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I couldn't agree more, especially now there is a new 'article' posted claiming de-clawing to be an acceptable practice to stop cats scatching as and I quote



> cats that have a history of scratching may have very little chance of being adopted


I have three large scratching posts/cat trees in my house and they are used by all my cats. My cats therefore have a history of scratching as do all the kittens I raise. My furniture is, in the main, intact!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

FeWill is a troll, pure and simple.



> In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a *desired emotional response*


He knew he pushed a few buttons on this thread re declawing, so he decides to post another pseudo-article specifically about the very subject he knew he could provoke members into the *desired emotional response*.

*Do not feed the troll.*


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> FeWill is a troll, pure and simple.
> 
> He knew he pushed a few buttons on this thread re declawing, so he decides to post another pseudo-article specifically about the very subject he knew he could provoke members into the *desired emotional response*.
> 
> *Do not feed the troll.*


But why would someone spend so much time doing long posts for that, I dont understand why they would :confused1:


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Ok, his "research" articles have been sloppy lately and his response to criticism has been severely wanting but I don't think he is a troll. He would be a very sophisticated one having posted on all sorts of health issues since 2009.

Just noticed - his link to the vit supplements has been taken off by mods.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Why would anyone, knowing the offence that it caused on one thread, bring it up on an entirely new thread which he has started today.

Everyone knows that declawing is a very controversial topic and it is one which elicits passionate, angry responses from anyone that is a cat lover, especially in the UK or any other country that has banned it as being cruel.

Why open that can of worms and rub salt into an open wound?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> But why would someone spend so much time doing long posts for that, I dont understand why they would :confused1:


call me cyncial... but maybe because in his "articles" he includes a link to his own "vitamin and mineral" website ... which I have just noticed the mods are currently deleting out of his posts.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Why would anyone, knowing the offence that it caused on one thread, bring it up on an entirely new thread which he has started today.
> 
> Everyone knows that declawing is a very controversial topic and it is one which elicits passionate, angry responses from anyone that is a cat lover, especially in the UK or any other country that has banned it as being cruel.
> 
> Why open that can of worms and rub salt into an open wound?


I only noticed that thread after posting here  



Tje said:


> call me cyncial... but maybe because in his "articles" he includes a link to his own "vitamin and mineral" website ... which I have just noticed the mods are currently deleting out of his posts.


I never clicked on it I dont do links lol :arf: Well I am disappointed I thought better of him.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> FeWill is a troll, pure and simple.
> 
> He knew he pushed a few buttons on this thread re declawing, so he decides to post another pseudo-article specifically about the very subject he knew he could provoke members into the *desired emotional response*.
> 
> *Do not feed the troll.*


Sadly I agree with you Lauren. I have staunchely defended FEWill in the past, even when poeple got slightly on his case for continually adding that link to his vitamin/mineral website on all of his posts (sorry I mean articles). I personally don't mind anyone promoting their own business or website via this forum, as long as the information they provide is sound.

FEWill never used to be a troll. 
But he has definitely turned into one.

His information used to fairly sound... now he is just being deliberately provacative. Which is troll-behaviour. All be it he is slightly more subtle than most trolls.

Call him what you will.... unlike everyone else who posts regularly on the act forums, FEWill is not here for debate and discussion and the giving and receiving of help and advice. He wants a captive audience in us, he doesn't actually want to interact with us.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Why would anyone, knowing the offence that it caused on one thread, bring it up on an entirely new thread which he has started today.
> 
> Everyone knows that declawing is a very controversial topic and it is one which elicits passionate, angry responses from anyone that is a cat lover, especially in the UK or any other country that has banned it as being cruel.
> 
> Why open that can of worms and rub salt into an open wound?


I didnt know there was another post - thats why I replied to the one today


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> I never clicked on it I dont do links lol :arf: Well I am disappointed I thought better of him.


I am too... really disappointed.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Tje said:


> Sadly I agree with you Lauren. I have staunchely defended FEWill in the past


And I too defend peeps I feel are been targeted, so I apologise in this instance for my previous posts obviously I was wrong


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> Why would anyone, knowing the offence that it caused on one thread, bring it up on an entirely new thread which he has started today.
> 
> Everyone knows that declawing is a very controversial topic and it is one which elicits passionate, angry responses from anyone that is a cat lover, especially in the UK or any other country that has banned it as being cruel.
> 
> Why open that can of worms and rub salt into an open wound?


and what is more Lauren.... if he was genuinely interested in cat-welfare, he would have edited his orginal comment on this thread which was pure condoning of de-clawing!

I think he likes to get us all worked up... like he said on this thread (or of the others in the last couple of days) it makes a pleasant change us to actually discuss soemthing serious as he thinks we spend way too much time posting fluffy rubbish about how cute and cool our cats are.

He is out to wind us up, pure & simple.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Tje said:


> and what is more Lauren.... if he was genuinely interested in cat-welfare, he would have edited his orginal comment on this thread which was pure condoning of de-clawing!
> 
> I think he likes to get us all worked up... like he said on this thread (or of the others in the last couple of days) it makes a pleasant change us to actually discuss soemthing serious as he thinks we spend way too much time posting fluffy rubbish about how cut and cool our cats are.
> 
> He is out to wind us up, pure & simple.


I must have missed something then cos I have never seen his posts before but from reading what I now have read he does seem to be wanting to "drop a bomb" and then sit back to watch it explode sad people with sad lives imo:frown:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> And I too defend peeps I feel are been targeted, so I apologise in this instance for my previous posts obviously I was wrong


no need for apologies Waterlily, those things happen when people deliberately set out to provoke when they posts about emotive subjects, their object is to stir.

I REALLY hope FEWill goes back to the way he used to be. Whether I liked his articles or not is quite irellevant... I could not dispute his heart was in the right place. Now.... well... I think he just wants to stir us all up into a frenzy so his posts get more views, his website gets more hits, and he gets a bit of reputation for himself.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

> no need for apologies Waterlily, those things happen when people deliberately set out to provoke when they posts about emotive subjects, their object is to stir.


your very gracious 



> he gets a bit of reputation for himself.


well he is succeeding in that :001_cool: :lol:


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

To be fair I'll speak up. In one of the posts that was removed in this thread by the mods, I did suggest to Frank that he either address the question on declawing in this thread, or start another topic about declawing (or something like that). So that might be why he started the other thread ... though unless he views the forums without logging in during our daytime, he may have missed that post before it was removed?

I wish in the declawing thread his cons could have been listed before the pros, that way anyone arriving at the thread from google or whatever wouldn't just read the pros and click off the page on the way to booking their moggie in for the op


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> I wish in the declawing thread his cons could have been listed before the pros, that way anyone arriving at the thread from google or whatever wouldn't just read the pros and click off the page on the way to booking their moggie in for the op


Do ya think vets though would try and talk them out of it ? Surely there isnt that many vets that would support it


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> Do ya think vets though would try and talk them out of it ? Surely there isnt that many vets that would support it


In Europe and Australia, for example it is illegal but in most states in the US and a lot of areas in Asia is it quite a common practice.

This page on good ole Wikipedia makes for sombre reading when you scroll down to the US bit. One study reckons that up to 25% of all cats in the US have been declawed

Onychectomy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess that is the problem with Frank's thread on declawing. From the US perspective it is a viable, legal alternative. But it makes horrific reading for anyone else.

If we give him the shadow of the doubt and presume that Frank's thread on declawing was not to stir up the pf but to educate, then he chose the wrong forum in the wrong country. i guess another case of bad research.


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## AnnaK (Aug 25, 2010)

Hobbs, I just did the same thing and then went to look at the CVMA website.

Chilling.

Then i went and cuddled my lovely kitties and gave thanks for every scratch they have given me.


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