# Crufts commentary



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Thought it might be good to have an ongoing commentary on various things going on at Crufts. 

Just watching the highlights this evening, LOVED the agility. Just watching the breed rings, my favourite so far the Canadian Eskimo dog, some over boned and some positively porkers amongst the others.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thought it might be good to have an ongoing commentary on various things going on at Crufts.
> 
> Just watching the highlights this evening, LOVED the agility. Just watching the breed rings, my favourite so far the Canadian Eskimo dog, some over boned and some positively porkers amongst the others.


Just watching now :thumbup:


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

watching too  loved the agility


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

Omg the greenland dog!!! :001_wub: :001_wub: :001_wub:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Not keen on the DDB, not sure if it's a breed characteristic, but she looked substantially shorter at the withers than the rump!


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not keen on the DDB, not sure if it's a breed characteristic, but she looked substantially shorter at the withers than the rump!


I thought that too. Seen quite a few round near us that also look like they're standing in a hole at the front. Not good at all. Wasn't impressed with the neo either, not as bad as some but still far, far too wrinkly.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Liked the rottie, and the husky, is it me, or do some of the bigger, heavier breeds have very weak pasterns?! Or are they meant to have sloping pasterns??


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Really enjoyed watching the flyball, particularly as we are getting started on it this weekend  Amazed at the speed of some of the dogs, there was one merle collie in particular who was insanely fast.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Hen, Feya has a thread in dog shows and events collating it all


Love ya xxxxxx


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

I might be biased but the newfoundland.... wow!! Now wheres the old english sheepdogs so i can cry lol.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

My shortlist:

- Great Dane
- Russian Black Terrier
- Rottweiler
- St Bernard
- Newfoundland


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Flamingoes said:


> Hen, Feya has a thread in dog shows and events collating it all
> 
> Love ya xxxxxx


[email protected], never mind!! Two threads are better than one


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that about the DDB - a very noticeable difference in height between front and back!

Got Newfies, Neos and Berners in working so it's divided loyalty for me! Cracking Neo, Bernese looked tired and missed the Newfie - I was retrieving a ball for Alfie that he had rolled under the sofa!


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not keen on the DDB, not sure if it's a breed characteristic, but she looked substantially shorter at the withers than the rump!


i did think this too! although to be honest dont know much about the breed so i wasn't sure if they are ment to be like that


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SixStar said:


> I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that about the DDB - a very noticeable difference in height between front and back!
> 
> Got Newfies, Neos and Berners in working so it's divided loyalty for me! Cracking Neo, Bernese looked tired and missed the Newfie - I was retrieving a ball for Alfie that he had rolled under the sofa!


I'm afraid the Bernese rolled, not a fit looking dog, the Newfie was huge, and the coat had obviously been sculpted.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

dandogman said:


> My shortlist:
> 
> - Great Dane
> - Russian Black Terrier
> ...


I liked the Husky, Rottie and Dobe, from there on, I don't know some of the breeds that well, but wasn't keen on the ones I do know!


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm afraid the Bernese rolled, not a fit looking dog, the Newfie was huge, and the coat had obviously been sculpted.


Wasn't keen on the head of the Bernese either - hoping for a peek of the Newfie in the shortlist perhaps.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Well one I liked went through! 

I'm not hugely over knowledgeable about malamutes, but that is a huge amount of bone!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Loved the Mally and Rottie.

I may not be favored for this but I would love for Elmo to win, I'm still a fan of him.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Love the Newfie


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Actually now seeing the boxer and great dane again, they're nice as well.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Is there somewhere I can see pictures/clips of the winning dogs? Sorry if I'm being dense  I was watching it live earlier on YouTube but at work now.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Shame to see the Neo out - he was a beauty, liked him very much. Fabulous Newfie, but would like to see the Rottie or Dane take it.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Fluffster said:


> Is there somewhere I can see pictures/clips of the winning dogs? Sorry if I'm being dense  I was watching it live earlier on YouTube but at work now.


They will be on the Crufts website eventually


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SixStar said:


> Shame to see the Neo out - he was a beauty, liked him very much. Fabulous Newfie, but would like to see the Rottie or Dane take it.


Not keen on the Newfie, seems very, very heavy boned, and yay, the rottie!!!!


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

Yay the rottie got it, though I liked the boxer tbh


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

dandogman said:


> My shortlist:
> 
> - Great Dane
> - Russian Black Terrier
> ...


2/4... not bad!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm guessing the tv is behind? i'm watching live on youtube and in the pastoral right now.


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## bella2013 (Aug 29, 2013)

Yay to the Rottie


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> I'm guessing the tv is behind? i'm watching live on youtube and in the pastoral right now.


Yep, it is behind live streaming.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not keen on the DDB, not sure if it's a breed characteristic, but she looked substantially shorter at the withers than the rump!


They incline and drop their heads on the move, especially when they're of a large build, like her.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not keen on the Newfie, seems very, very heavy boned, and yay, the rottie!!!!


Newfies are very heavy boned! Delighted to see the Rottie take it though.



SpringerHusky said:


> I'm guessing the tv is behind? i'm watching live on youtube and in the pastoral right now.


Yes, we've just seen working group judging.


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

I thought the newfie was gorgeous. they are huuuge dogs and we know of one whos much bigger but not fat by any means. He was a stunner on crufts.. not a patch on my boy though all 4 weeks old of him!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> They incline and drop their heads on the move, especially when they're of a large build, like her.


Thanks for the explanation, I think it's got a few people wondering whether it's *normal* judging by the posts. Looks odd to me, I know many dogs do have a slightly higher rump, but not such an obvious difference. Retrievers are meant to be level, but many stand with a slightly higher rump.


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## donnas1977 (Feb 7, 2010)

Am catching up on more4. Those Newfoundlands are stunning doggies


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

Looooooved the flyball and the agility!
Isn't Stryder the lurcher on the forum?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not keen on the Newfie, seems very, very heavy boned, and yay, the rottie!!!!


On a breed where the dogs are supposed to be heavy boned, that's a good thing!

He was a real beauty, the rottie was a smashing show dog, poor thing, the owner said he's exhausted now.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thanks for the explanation, I think it's got a few people wondering whether it's *normal* judging by the posts. Looks odd to me, I know many dogs do have a slightly higher rump, but not such an obvious difference. Retrievers are meant to be level, but many stand with a slightly higher rump.


You can get them to move with their heads up above the top line so they move more flashy, but it's atypical of their natural movement. The breed judge is regarded as one of the top experts in the world. He also is pretty ruthless when it comes to disqualifying dogs.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Thought the YKC agility was fab, the last run was very tense!

Love watching the young handlers, they make it look so natural.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

That Austrailian Cattle Dog wasn't moving well...


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

dandogman said:


> That Austrailian Cattle Dog wasn't moving well...


Poor thing looked strung up by his lead!


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

I didn't like many of the large working breeds; DDB, newfie, neo, St Bernard. They all had droopy faces or sore looking eyes. 

I laughed at the husky that was shedding profusely and suprised myself at liking the little sheltie.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I'm catching up so I know this happened hours ago, but oh my goodness! How precious was Henry the CKCS! 10 years old, deaf and doing heelwork to music like a youngster! I was beaming through his whole routine, he looked so happy!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The Australian Cattle Dog looked to me, and someone else I've been on the phone with, as though he was lame on the back left.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The Australian Cattle Dog looked to me, and someone else I've been on the phone with, as though he was lame on the back left.


Exactly my thoughts.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh the border collie is beauiful.......not that am baised, honest


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

My favourites are the Bearded Collie and Rough Collie.

Bit disapointed by Elmo the GSD this year...


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Bring back Claire balding to commentate though!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

CheddarS said:


> Bring back Claire balding to commentate though!


She's back from tomorrow, thank god!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

I'm behind but i loved the rottie, really pleased it took the group.

Presenter is doing my head in, keep muting her!!


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

I only have an iPad and it says YouTube can't be viewed from mobile at mo. I have channel four app but its not coming up with tonight's prog. 

Anyone know where or how to find it? Please


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## lisaslovelys (Jun 7, 2013)

I want a Molly spaniel :001_wub:
That made me cry how close she is to the little boy and can alert them when his blood sugar is running low ! 
I would love my boy to have a bond so strong with our dog in the future !!!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

pearltheplank said:


> I only have an iPad and it says YouTube can't be viewed from mobile at mo. I have channel four app but its not coming up with tonight's prog.
> 
> Anyone know where or how to find it? Please


The live YouTube feed has stopped till tomorrow and there's nothing recorded to watch at the moment. Hopefully they'll put some stuff up, I was hoping to watch the group again as I only saw the start and end.


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## 2Cats2Dogs (Oct 30, 2012)

Just got back from Crufts. I fell in love so many times when I saw each breed of dog. I made a new friend in a Newfie! And OMG the flyball. The dogs are ridiculously fast!! Brought some goodies for my two. I never managed to get around the whole place as there was so much to see. It blew me away. Also apologies for not seeing fellow PFer's. My feet are beat!


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The Australian Cattle Dog looked to me, and someone else I've been on the phone with, as though he was lame on the back left.


I agree it looked lame on its back left....long old day for them.

Like the aussie and the bearded and loved the cheeky little heeler

Elmo didn't really impress


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

4 OD says coming soon - so I expect you'll be able to get todays highlights again shortly.

Tomorrows is on More 4 18.30-19.30 and Channel 4 from 7.30pm


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Fleur said:


> 4 OD says coming soon - so I expect you'll be able to get todays highlights again shortly.


Thank you for that


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I recorded it and started watching it about half an hour after it started. My dogs spewed continually for about half an hour so I had to keep stopping it to clear up and put things in the washing machine.
I thought the Newfie was lovely but I prefer to watch agility.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Really like the rough! Absolutely gorgeous. 

Don't like Elmo at all. I'm sure he was discussed last year though.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

CaliDog said:


> Oh the border collie is beauiful.......not that am baised, honest


She's absolutely gorgeous! Her name is Blax (Caleykiz Rhythm in Black) She is from the breeders of our border collies and is the mother of our border collie Gracee  Was really pleased she was shortlisted and was gutted when she wasn't placed.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I'm probably biased, but i loved the Great Dane! Lovely shape and not over large as some Danes can be.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> I'm probably biased, but i loved the Great Dane! Lovely shape and not over large as some Danes can be.


I really liked the Great Dane


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

dandogman said:


> My favourites are the Bearded Collie and Rough Collie.
> 
> Bit disapointed by Elmo the GSD this year...


The rough was very nice, good to see them doing well in the group, I know it was short listed but not sure about final result as I had to leave and it's tivo'd for later.

I had a feeling it would be a Brooklynson collie for BOB this year, they seem to be having a really great year. I think their other dogs won some classes too.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sorry if this was covered, haven't read the whole thread; that GSD that placed third yesterday in the pastoral (?) group had such a sloping back!


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Any one getting ready to watch the agility semi-final?

I'm super excited!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Sorry if this was covered, haven't read the whole thread; that GSD that placed third yesterday in the pastoral (?) group had such a sloping back!


The breed standard states the back must slope, hence why the backs have sloped more and more over the years


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

BessieDog said:


> I'm probably biased, but i loved the Great Dane! Lovely shape and not over large as some Danes can be.


That Dane was stunning :001_wub: Love the Newfie also :thumbup1:


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Sorry if this was covered, haven't read the whole thread; that GSD that placed third yesterday in the pastoral (?) group had such a sloping back!


I feel the same, not only sloping, but sort of hunched in the middle. Do prefer dogs with a straight topline. I much rather see less of a slope on the GSD's and. It the weird crouched gait they have, looks very odd.

I liked the Rough Collie, the Dane, the Pyrenean and the Beardie.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Siskin said:


> I feel the same, not only sloping, but sort of hunched in the middle. Do prefer dogs with a straight topline. I much rather see less of a slope on the GSD's and. It the weird crouched gait they have, looks very odd.
> 
> I liked the Rough Collie, the Dane, the Pyrenean and the Beardie.


The Rough Collie was beautiful! Totally agree about the GSD and so chuffed the Samoyed took the group 

Loved just watching the rescue agility  The Saluki that zoomied really made me laugh :big grin: He was having a ball!


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The breed standard states the back must slope, hence why the backs have sloped more and more over the years


Probably opening a can of worms here, excerpt from the breed standard.

Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long. Overall length achieved by correct angle of well laid shoulders, correct length of croup and hindquarters. The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup. The back is firm, strong and well muscled. Loin broad, strong, well muscled. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised. Croup slightly sloping and without any break in the topline, merges imperceptibly with the set on of the tail. Short, steep or flat croups highly undesirable.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

For anyone watching the live stream: BRILLIANT


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Oh no.  I hope those dogs are OK it looked nasty.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Thought it might be good to have an ongoing commentary on various things going on at Crufts.
> 
> Just watching the highlights this evening, LOVED the agility. Just watching the breed rings, my favourite so far the Canadian Eskimo dog, some over boned and some positively porkers amongst the others.


I fell in love with the Canadian Eskimo dog! Wouldn't be able to have one though  Far too high energy for us by the sounds of it! I had a good fuss and a sing from the one in discover dogs


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I watched some of the cani cross and, of course, the Southern Golden Retrievers.

Really enjoying the live streaming, but Isla is nagging for a walk. Sigh.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

jenniferx said:


> Oh no.  I hope those dogs are OK it looked nasty.


what happened


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Pointermum said:


> what happened


A fight between two flyball dogs, at about 4:55:57 ish.

So much time faffing and talking, it's not surprising!


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Just put. The bl00dy. Toys on :mad5:


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Gemmaa said:


> A fight between two flyball dogs, at about 4:55:57 ish.
> 
> So much time faffing and talking, it's not surprising!


Just watched it 

Also got to see Gavin the Pointer run in the agility before the flyball , shame he got disqualified for jumping the wrong jump


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Definitely handler error on those two dogs who went for each other, I think. Two overexcited dogs on the same course at the same time with one ball can't be a good thing.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Pezant said:


> Definitely handler error on those two dogs who went for each other, I think. Two overexcited dogs on the same course at the same time with one ball can't be a good thing.


I didn't catch it! Anyone got a link?


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I didn't catch it! Anyone got a link?


Pretty sure it happens here: Crufts 2014 | Day 2 LIVE - YouTube


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Ouch looked quite serious! We saw a couple of dogs less than impressed with their neighbours while waiting in the stalls yesterday lol


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> A fight between two flyball dogs, at about 4:55:57 ish.
> 
> So much time faffing and talking, it's not surprising!


Didn't look good. They impressed me with how they all mucked in to separate the dogs. Just shows how quickly dogs can 'turn' over resources especially in such an exciting environment. Surprised it doesn't happen more tbh...


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Ahhhhh, that Airedale is just _lovely_ :001_tt1:


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I'm excited for the Parson!

The Airdale was gorgeous


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

When did Australian Silky terriers become Australian terriers?


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

SpringerHusky said:


> When did Australian Silky terriers become Australian terriers?


They're two separate breeds, the silky is in the toy group.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> They're two separate breeds, the silky is in the toy group.


Ahhhh that makes sense :lol:


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Minor panic there, the live feed cut out for a few minutes :scared:

I love the smooth fox and the Irish too.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Oh gosh, the Parson didn't look relaxed at all


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

The basset doesn't look good already


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Really like the Border Terrier and the Bedlington

ooo and the Wire Fox, and the Lakeland


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

The basset looks awful, horrific amount of excess skin and far too low to the ground. 

The bloodhound however is very nice, lovely face.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Love the fact that the Sealyham has a Springsteen-themed name!


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## murphy21 (Dec 26, 2010)

Beautiful wire haired fox terrier! Very well deserved winner


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

wolfhound is STUNNING!!!! Really liked the bloodhound as well, and the ridgeback was a beauty


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

There was me all clapping for the ridgeback :lol: silly owner/handler 

The wolfhound was very stunning :biggrin:


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

How strug up was some of the terriers 

I had Crufts series linked on e4 and they moved move to channel 4 so I've missed some


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Very disapointed by the Basset Hound... athletic?... have you seen it


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

That basset was dreadful


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Not impressed by the Basset  

I lover the Wolfhound, Ridgeback, Beagle and Fox Hound


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

My favourite today has to be the ABC agility, (anything but collies) so impressed


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## zedder (Aug 21, 2013)

ABC class because no dog can touch a collie when it comes too agility mwuhahaha :cornut:


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Indiandpuppy said:


> My favourite today has to be the ABC agility, (anything but collies) so impressed


Gavin the Pointer came 3rd


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

The beagle and the dachshunds were all chunky monkeys 

I have a soft spot for basenjis too and he looked nice, also the wolfhound and the RR.

The basset was awful


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I did like the Wolfhound


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Well most of us picked the wolfhound! What a handsome chap he is


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I loved the RR, he was such a clean looking dog (his lines, not his coat!). The poor owner when everyone thought they had won


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## CheddarS (Dec 13, 2011)

Indiandpuppy said:


> My favourite today has to be the ABC agility, (anything but collies) so impressed


I always like the ABC agility as it shows anyone that it is possible and they can have fun


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> The beagle and the dachshunds were all chunky monkeys
> 
> I have a soft spot for basenjis too and he looked nice, also the wolfhound and the RR.
> 
> The basset was awful


I didn't think the beagle was chunky , they are a thicker set dog compared to a lot of hound dogs ......it's like standing next to a load of super models as a size 12, you would look chunky :lol:


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

I cant believe the judge did that to the ridgie owner, really nasty of him.


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

Craven came 2nd to the Foxhound once........................


in a fun dog show.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Dober said:


> I cant believe the judge did that to the ridgie owner, really nasty of him.


I missed that, phone rang - what happened?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Shoshannah said:


> I missed that, phone rang - what happened?


He was a total JERK! Right at the final moment as he was going to point to the winner of the hound group, he pointed to the ridge and she thought she has won, and he said 'No actually I was just telling you to stand up not kneel down' awful, awful awful. Watch it on catchup if you can, really SHOCKING.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Pointermum said:


> I didn't think the beagle was chunky , they are a thicker set dog compared to a lot of hound dogs ......*it's like standing next to a load of super models as a size 12, you would look chunky* :lol:


Haha lol at the bit in bold! True as well!

But living near a pack of hounds that includes beagles and foxhounds, show beagles look super chunky! He (or she I can't remember) had no waist and had no noticeable tummy tuck. And though I know beagles are generally chunkier than a lot of hounds, the difference between that dog and the hounds I see every weekend is at least a dress size!:biggrin:

I know we've discussed fattening dogs up for shows before so I'll not start another rant about fat dogs at Crufts lol


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Dober said:


> He was a total JERK! Right at the final moment as he was going to point to the winner of the hound group, he pointed to the ridge and she thought she has won, and he said 'No actually I was just telling you to stand up not kneel down' awful, awful awful. Watch it on catchup if you can, really SHOCKING.


Was it the same judge with the terriers? Did something similar with the staffie but not as bad.

How come the little dog handlers were allowed to kneel but not the RR?


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## murphy21 (Dec 26, 2010)

Dober said:


> He was a total JERK! Right at the final moment as he was going to point to the winner of the hound group, he pointed to the ridge and she thought she has won, and he said 'No actually I was just telling you to stand up not kneel down' awful, awful awful. Watch it on catchup if you can, really SHOCKING.


That was shocking- I'd consider that harsh at just a normal open show; let alone crufts best of group!! Horrible, poor ridgeback owner!! I should think she felt awful!


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

sharloid said:


> Was it the same judge with the terriers? Did something similar with the staffie but not as bad.
> 
> How come the little dog handlers were allowed to kneel but not the RR?


No the terrier judge was different, the group judge was Mr Michael Quinney. I didnt watch the terrier group.

Anyone is allowed to handle however the hell they want to handle, if someone wants to stand or kneel or whatever then thats up to them. There was absolutely NO need to tell her to stand up, especially at that time.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Liked the wolfhound, and the ridgie. I didn't think the judge was out of order, if they're not a breed that you need to kneel down to show, maybe she was mucking up his view of the dog? 

Not a fan of the basset, or the daschunds, although the wire haired were much better.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Dober said:


> No the terrier judge was different, the group judge was Mr Michael Quinney. I didnt watch the terrier group.
> 
> Anyone is allowed to handle however the hell they want to handle, if someone wants to stand or kneel or whatever then thats up to them. There was absolutely NO need to tell her to stand up, especially at that time.


I agree. I hope she reports him. There was no need to do that to her at all - how awful to think that you have won the group and then realise you are being told to stand up. I really feel for her. Stupid judge.

I did like the Wolfhound - picked him out as the winner, but I'd have had the RR second, the Saluki third and the short haired miniature dachsund 4th.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

murphy21 said:


> That was shocking- I'd consider that harsh at just a normal open show; let alone crufts best of group!! Horrible, poor ridgeback owner!! I should think she felt awful!


I was so relieved that at least she still got 3rd, which is very impressive. Not as impressive as winning the group admittedly, but if she hadn't even got in the top few it would have been even worse to have thought for a moment she had come first.

Really felt for the poor woman.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Dober said:


> He was a total JERK! Right at the final moment as he was going to point to the winner of the hound group, he pointed to the ridge and she thought she has won, and he said 'No actually I was just telling you to stand up not kneel down' awful, awful awful. Watch it on catchup if you can, really SHOCKING.


Oh that's gutting!


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## murphy21 (Dec 26, 2010)

Alice Childress said:


> I was so relieved that at least she still got 3rd, which is very impressive. Not as impressive as winning the group admittedly, but if she hadn't even got in the top few it would have been even worse to have thought for a moment she had come first.
> 
> Really felt for the poor woman.


Completely agree, I thought the ridgeback was lovely and so so happy she got placed 3rd- which is great! Would have felt so sorry for her though if she'd got nothing after thinking she'd won...

Poor woman. I thought it was actually very unfair and not good judging to do that. I kneel with my dog when I show him I'm there and to reassure him, I've never been told not too? I stand aswell but still, not sure I see the problem with it. She was wearing a similar colour but surely you'd wait or make a decision around that? It's crufts!


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## murphy21 (Dec 26, 2010)

Dober said:


> No the terrier judge was different, the group judge was Mr Michael Quinney. I didnt watch the terrier group.
> 
> Anyone is allowed to handle however the hell they want to handle, if someone wants to stand or kneel or whatever then thats up to them. There was absolutely NO need to tell her to stand up, especially at that time.


I kneel sometimes with my bracco when I show him, I've never been told not to! I was told to do it however I feel comfortable and makes the dog feel at ease. It's crufts for god sake, even at an open show that would be rude but crufts?!


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Liked the wolfhound, and the ridgie. I didn't think the judge was out of order, if they're not a breed that you need to kneel down to show, maybe she was mucking up his view of the dog?
> 
> Not a fan of the basset, or the daschunds, although the wire haired were much better.


I kneel with Bess! Hurts my back to stand. I've never been told that you have to take a particular stance for a particular breed!

Maybe her back hurt as well? Who's he to know? Disgusting!

It's the dog they're supposed to be judging, not the handler!


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Dober said:


> I cant believe the judge did that to the ridgie owner, really nasty of him.


But surley the handler should have known how to stand with the dog?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

hazel pritchard said:


> But surley the handler should have known how to stand with the dog?


There's nothing wrong with kneeling down like she did, lots of people kneel down with their dogs. There is no 'rule' on how to show your dog, you should show your dog how you feel it looks best.

He didnt even let her finish stacking her dog before going on to choose the wolfhound for first place. Which makes me believe he had already chosen his winner by that point, hence no reason whatsoever to tell her to stand up.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

hazel pritchard said:


> But surley the handler should have known how to stand with the dog?


Far as I know Hazel it's personal choice. Or I've never been told different at ringcraft!


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Felt so awful for the poor Ridgie owner, how rude of the judge to do that, and at that moment too! The Wolfhound was lovely, but that did spoil it somewhat for me.


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## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

off to Crufts tomorrow, to see the Mini Schnauzers, so glad the Irish Wolfhound and the Rhodesian Ridgeback got through, two really nice dogs.

I hope all who have gone to Crufts have had a thoroughly wonderful experience and have enjoyed your day/s out, experienced the events in the big arena, like agility, flyball, obedience, dancing with dogs, etc., and haven't spent too much shopping on doggie needs.

I am looking forward to it so much I don't think I am going to sleep too much tonight.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> I kneel with Bess! Hurts my back to stand. I've never been told that you have to take a particular stance for a particular breed!
> 
> Maybe her back hurt as well? Who's he to know? Disgusting!
> 
> It's the dog they're supposed to be judging, not the handler!


Yes but you kneel, because your dog is stacked and you hold the tail out to show off the feathering, and also hold their head in place. That's why some goldie folk have taken to doing it as well, so that they can show off the feathering to maximum effect, not all dogs hold their tail out in the show ring, Rhuna drops hers and yet she will stand and wag beautifully at other times. I wouldn't stack her though to try and produce that effect, the judge would hopefully have seen them on the move and knows what the tail set is like, and flatcoats are free standing, although the horrible fashion of stringing them up by their necks is creeping in, they should also move freely.

No matter what the arguments, the judge is within their rights if they want to look at the dog properly, to ask you to stand up, or move the dog again, it's up to the competitors to follow the judges guidance and hopefully do well with their dog.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Dober said:


> There's nothing wrong with kneeling down like she did, lots of people kneel down with their dogs. There is no 'rule' on how to show your dog, you should show your dog how you feel it looks best.
> 
> He didnt even let her finish stacking her dog before going on to choose the wolfhound for first place. Which makes me believe he had already chosen his winner by that point, hence no reason whatsoever to tell her to stand up.


Exactly this. It was judging of the sort you would expect in a fun show, not what you would expect to see in the Group ring at Crufts.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes but you kneel, because your dog is stacked and you hold the tail out to show off the feathering, and also hold their head in place. That's why some goldie folk have taken to doing it as well, so that they can show off the feathering to maximum effect, not all dogs hold their tail out in the show ring, Rhuna drops hers and yet she will stand and wag beautifully at other times. I wouldn't stack her though to try and produce that effect, the judge would hopefully have seen them on the move and knows what the tail set is like, and flatcoats are free standing, although the horrible fashion of stringing them up by their necks is creeping in, they should also move freely.
> 
> No matter what the arguments, the judge is within their rights if they want to look at the dog properly, to ask you to stand up, or move the dog again, it's up to the competitors to follow the judges guidance and hopefully do well with their dog.


With all due respect, when you gain a little more experience in the show ring you will be able to tell bad judging from good judging - and that was some of the most blatantly bad judging I have ever seen. At that stage of the competition a good judge would have seen everything he wanted to see of the dog and does not need to give what amounts to handling lessons to a handler experienced enough to have handled her dog this far in the competition. She was not obscuring the dog in any way, and if he had wanted her to free-stand a simple, "Would you free-stand your dog please" is what a good judge would have said. Going over to her and showing her his hand as if he were awarding the first place was extremely bad judging - not to mention ill-mannered. There was no need for what he did other than pompous self-aggrandisement.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes but you kneel, because your dog is stacked and you hold the tail out to show off the feathering, and also hold their head in place. That's why some goldie folk have taken to doing it as well, so that they can show off the feathering to maximum effect, not all dogs hold their tail out in the show ring, Rhuna drops hers and yet she will stand and wag beautifully at other times. I wouldn't stack her though to try and produce that effect, the judge would hopefully have seen them on the move and knows what the tail set is like, and flatcoats are free standing, although the horrible fashion of stringing them up by their necks is creeping in, they should also move freely.
> 
> No matter what the arguments, the judge is within their rights if they want to look at the dog properly, to ask you to stand up, or move the dog again, it's up to the competitors to follow the judges guidance and hopefully do well with their dog.


Were you watching what happened. He did not ask her to stand so he could see the dog better, he did not even look at the dog, he gave her the signal that would be expected when he had chosen his winner. The crowd cheered, the commentator got excited, the other competitors assumed she had won.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Were you watching what happened. He did not ask her to stand so he could see the dog better, he did not even look at the dog, he gave her the signal that would be expected when he had chosen his winner. The crowd cheered, the commentator got excited, the other competitors assumed she had won.


Yes, I was watching what was happening. What did you expect him to do to ask her to stand up? What *other* signal could he have used? Maybe he could have walked closer and simply asked her, but the thought that she (or anyone else) could mistake him pointing and asking for her to stand as anything except a request to stand next to her dog rather than kneel down, probably never crossed his mind.

The fact that there have been a couple of quite *personal* comments about the judge makes me feel uncomfortable. He's simply doing his best to ensure all the dogs get a fair shout, yes, it is disappointing that there was a bit of confusion about the request, but I'm sure it wasn't vindictive or meant to be 'nasty'.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes but you kneel, because your dog is stacked and you hold the tail out to show off the feathering, and also hold their head in place. That's why some goldie folk have taken to doing it as well, so that they can show off the feathering to maximum effect, not all dogs hold their tail out in the show ring, Rhuna drops hers and yet she will stand and wag beautifully at other times. I wouldn't stack her though to try and produce that effect, the judge would hopefully have seen them on the move and knows what the tail set is like, and flatcoats are free standing, although the horrible fashion of stringing them up by their necks is creeping in, they should also move freely.
> 
> No matter what the arguments, the judge is within their rights if they want to look at the dog properly, to ask you to stand up, or move the dog again, it's up to the competitors to follow the judges guidance and hopefully do well with their dog.


How come some breeds are allowed to move freely and others are strung up? Is it usually the same across a breed or is it just what some handlers do? I can't see how being yanked up or back is good for any breed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sharloid said:


> How come some breeds are allowed to move freely and others are strung up? Is it usually the same across a breed or is it just what some handlers do? I can't see how being yanked up or back is good for any breed.


People tend to follow what's *fashionable* - it's why a lot of flatcoats in the breed rings have their neck and ears pretty much shaved right down - I'll be finishing off tidying up Rhuna with the help of Heather, but as a working breed, I think the protection their coat gives them is important and wouldn't alter it for the show ring. The things that you should do are make sure the feet, ears and end of tail are clearly visible, to show they are the right shape, size and set. But as far as how the dogs are moved, some like the way they move with their head held up, as it makes them appear more *flashy*, where as I prefer the natural movement, and you're not hiding anything about their movement by allowing them to run with a loose lead.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, I was watching what was happening. What did you expect him to do to ask her to stand up? What *other* signal could he have used? Maybe he could have walked closer and simply asked her, but the thought that she (or anyone else) could mistake him pointing and asking for her to stand as anything except a request to stand next to her dog rather than kneel down, probably never crossed his mind.
> 
> The fact that there have been a couple of quite *personal* comments about the judge makes me feel uncomfortable. He's simply doing his best to ensure all the dogs get a fair shout, yes, it is disappointing that there was a bit of confusion about the request, but I'm sure it wasn't vindictive or meant to be 'nasty'.


I am sure he was not being vindictive or nasty - I have not seen anyone say that. But I think most people are agreed that he made a very stupid mistake and it has left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths and must have been incredibly upsetting for the RR handler.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I am sure he was not being vindictive or nasty - I have not seen anyone say that. But I think most people are agreed that he made a very stupid mistake and it has left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths and must have been incredibly upsetting for the RR handler.


Well a few pages back, it was described as nasty. And yes, it wasn't possibly the best way to ask someone to stand up when all eyes are on you waiting to indicate who has won, but people are human, we all make mistakes. It is disappointing for the owner of the ridgeback, but maybe people won't be so quick now to *assume* when the judge points and asks for an exhibitor to do *something* that they've just won. There's a lot of pressure on the judges, I don't envy their job at such a high level.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

In my opinion he does act nasty and I'm just calling it as I see it- whenever I have seen him judging he has always seemed arrogant, rude and very dismissive. There have been a lot of complaints made about him.

I 100% agree with spellweaver; to me it definitely came across as he was trying to give her a handling lesson in front of the whole world. If I were the ridgeback owner, I would be putting my money down for sure, and I would expect him to make a formal apology.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Dober said:


> In my opinion he does act nasty and I'm just calling it as I see it- whenever I have seen him judging he has always seemed arrogant, rude and very dismissive. There have been a lot of complaints made about him.
> 
> I 100% agree with spellweaver; to me it definitely came across as he was trying to give her a handling lesson in front of the whole world. If I were the ridgeback owner, I would be putting my money down for sure, and I would expect him to make a formal apology.


Absolutely. I would be doing this if it were me; and so would just about every other person in the show world who I've spoken to. Crikey, even the "Winner" music started playing, so it wasn't just the handler who was fooled. As I said, Sleeping Lion is very new to the championship show scene and once she gets a bit more experience under her belt she will understand that judges are supposed to treat exhibitors with respect, and that in this case a simple verbal request such as "Would you free-stand your dog please" was all that was required.

Judges are not gods and they can, and do, make errors - even famous judges such ss Andrew Brace, who was fined the maxium of £300 for his behaviour towards border collie exhibitors (in this case for not going over the dogs properly) a few years ago at Blackpool.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I thought the judge was pretty awful for doing what he did, he could have asked her to stand if it bothered him that much rather than make a hand gesture that looked like he had picked her, he should be looking at the dog not her and should have got an idea by then who had won, which it looked like he did anyway - it was a good example of bad judging! 
There were some lovely dogs there but the dachshunds and basset just made me cringe, I had to look away, they looked so so awful am so glad they weren't picked! I have to say the bloodhound looked more towards the working stock compared to the excessive wrinkly droopy eyed things they used to show so at least that breed seems to be doing something to change. The rottie was nice too and some of the terriers were very smart.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I was watching and I just saw this beam of joy on the Ridgie owner's face, I really thought she'd won. I was bemused that a presumably experienced judge would not realise that he was giving a confusing signal.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I was watching and I just saw this beam of joy on the Ridgie owner's face, I really thought she'd won. I was bemused that a presumably experienced judge would not realise that he was giving a confusing signal.


Which judge was it?


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

That fight was horrific... I feel so sorry for that second dog... I hope they are both okay. Does anyone know?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

lozzibear said:


> That fight was horrific... I feel so sorry for that second dog... I hope they are both okay. Does anyone know?


They said in the commentary when the team came out again that both dogs where OK and just calming down back stage.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> They said in the commentary when the team came out again that both dogs where OK and just calming down back stage.


I just never know if they are saying that to pacify people  I had a look about FB though, and a few people have said that they are okay (and actually live in the same house!), thankfully!  I just can't stop feeling sorry for the second dog...


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Urgh, the bulldog does not look good at all :nonod: 

The chow isn't keen on the judge :scared:

Frenchie is a bit more moderate than some I've seen which is good.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

The commentators sound a bit drunk - misnaming dogs and missing dogs out as the camera moves along the utility group XD


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

oh this king charles isn't nice, he has literally no snout!!!


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

ballybee said:


> oh this king charles isn't nice, he has literally no snout!!!


Just thinking the same about the peke. I don't see how a dog with so little face and such a ridiculous amount of coat can possibly live a normal and active life :nonod:


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

The pug isn't pleasant either. I really can't fathom the desire for breeds with such flat faces.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Urgh, the bulldog does not look good at all :nonod:
> 
> The chow isn't keen on the judge :scared:
> 
> Frenchie is a bit more moderate than some I've seen which is good.


I didn't like the bulldog either  And to think, two years ago when the vet checks first came in, a beautiful under exaggerated Bulldog was told that they were not fit for function... yet that dog goes through no problem.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Just thinking the same about the peke. I don't see how a dog with so little face and such a ridiculous amount of coat can possibly live a normal and active life :nonod:





WeedySeaDragon said:


> The pug isn't pleasant either. I really can't fathom the desire for breeds with such flat faces.


agreed, not overly impressed with the 8 she's picked, loving the pom though


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Frank Kane is delusional if he honestly thinks that peke is "unexaggerated", I'm not sure you get more exaggerated as far as flat faces and too much coat goes.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Frank Kane is delusional if he honestly thinks that peke is "unexaggerated", I'm not sure you get more exaggerated as far as flat faces and too much coat goes.


i know, almost spat out my soup!!!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Really don't like the way the Standard Poodle was handled.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

dandogman said:


> Really don't like the way the Standard Poodle was handled.


Same! He looked reeeallly uncomfortable!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I've seen a few of the handlers jerking on those thin leads over the last day or two.

That Akita was gorgeous.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

I really liked the Euraiser and the Tibetan Spaniel too - shame he bottled out towards the end  poor mite


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

woo keeshond in third, not a poodle fan. bulldog was so sad


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I can't help it, I simply don't like the way the Poodle coats look when they're cut like that.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I can't help it, I simply don't like the way the Poodle coats look when they're cut like that.


They claim it has a practical purpose... would love to see that working... *based* on a working cut maybe.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Argent said:


> I really liked the Euraiser and the Tibetan Spaniel too - shame he bottled out towards the end  poor mite


I know - poor little sausage. It just goes to show that what we keep saying is true - if a dog isn't happy/doesn't want to show then you can't make it show.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I can't help it, I simply don't like the way the Poodle coats look when they're cut like that.


Same here! I think it looks a tad silly


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I can't help it, I simply don't like the way the Poodle coats look when they're cut like that.


I agree - I wish they'd show them with their normal coat instead of messed about like that. He's a fantastic example of the breed though - I reckon he's odds on for BIS even though I really want the Irish Wolfhound to win.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Not impressed with the bulldog, and for all the raving about improving the Frenchie they still gave bob to a dog with absolutely no nostrils :-(

Glad the chow wasn't placed after its reaction to the judge.


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Oh my god, the King Charles Spaniel actually looks like it has a major birth defect, how horrible


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## shirleystarr (Mar 22, 2009)

I think its the final tomorrow for best in show I am just glad that wonderful dog won scurffts he deserved it after all he has been though 
way to go Wylie :thumbup::thumbup:


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Oddly for me, I liked the Shar Pei. I thought he looked remarkably lightly wrinkled for the breed. Liked the Euraiser too and I reckon the poodle will get BIS too.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

shirleystarr said:


> I think its the final tomorrow for best in show I am just glad that *wonderful dog won scurffts he deserved it after all he has been though *
> way to go Wylie :thumbup::thumbup:


That was so upsetting


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

You're right about the KCS, very odd looking. Cavalier was nice.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Hope the pug doesn't get placed after pawing the judge.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

KCS is awful looking


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## bella2013 (Aug 29, 2013)

Poor Pekinese looked like it was struggling to breath. Loved the little Pom


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm amazed by the age of the Chinese crested, only ten and a half months.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Pekinese, apparently it's healthy.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

The Chinese Crested is cute, looks like a tiny pony.

I really do not like the Pekingnese (sorry think I've spelled it wrong).


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Peke looks like a fluffy old rug


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## bella2013 (Aug 29, 2013)

YAY!! so wanted the Pmom to win.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Peke looks like a fluffy old rug


You're more polite than me


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

dandogman said:


> Pekinese, apparently it's healthy.


Sounded like he knew we were all thinking otherwise - poor thing was getting carried around the ring for half of it.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

bella2013 said:


> YAY!! so wanted the Pmom to win.


Colin....


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Argent said:


> Sounded like he knew we were all thinking otherwise - poor thing was getting carried around the ring for half of it.


Yes he sounded a tad defensive!


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

So, the Jaffa orange on legs won it.

Think it's quite cute.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Argent said:


> Sounded like he knew we were all thinking otherwise - poor thing was getting carried around the ring for half of it.


'he's going at just about the right pace, they shouldn't be rushed' - poor thing can't go any faster!


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Yes he sounded a tad defensive!





dandogman said:


> 'he's going at just about the right pace, they shouldn't be rushed' - poor thing can't go any faster!


Absolutely! Certainly no hiding his favouritism there  The Pom, Bichon and Longhaired Chi were my faves in that group - the pug was a right little porker!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Hate the way they keep on mentioning the Assured breeder scheme like any breeder who isn't a member is inaddequate when in reality, it isn't worth the paper it's written on quite frankly.


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## bella2013 (Aug 29, 2013)

I noticed that they mentioned it a lot, and they suggested breeders who are registered not showing, that was poo pooed.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Argent said:


> I really liked the Euraiser and the Tibetan Spaniel too - *shame he bottled out towards the end  poor mite*


I *think* just from the way he was breathing that it actually looked a bit like he had a reverse sneezing attack! The handler also at one point put her finger over his nose which is what you can do to get them to open their mouths and interrupt the breathing to stop the spasm.

I am really sad that the peke placed. Just so far from what any dog should be IMO. Loved the wee Chi's. But glad overall that the group was won by the Pom.

It's quite a traditional line up thus far isn't it, for BIS?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dober said:


> In my opinion he does act nasty and I'm just calling it as I see it- whenever I have seen him judging he has always seemed arrogant, rude and very dismissive. There have been a lot of complaints made about him.
> 
> I 100% agree with spellweaver; to me it definitely came across as he was trying to give her a handling lesson in front of the whole world. If I were the ridgeback owner, I would be putting my money down for sure, and I would expect him to make a formal apology.


He once shouted at me in the ring, to be fair I deserved it lol. I had 2 litter sisters entered in different classes. When I went in the ring with my second dog, MQ asked me if it was a new dog - I replied, no ive had her since she was born, I bred her:scared::lol: he nearly snapped my head off lol. My most embarrassing moment in the ring, gave us all a good laugh afterwards though.

He's got a really rude & abrupt manner, I thought what he did to the RR handler was appaling.

,


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

The peke IMO is a disgusting breed and is unbelievably cruel, there are several breeds I think are cruel but the peke is top I think. It looks nothing like a dog, more like a rug on legs... the face is so flat... its just awful and so sad


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm really disappointed at how bad most of the high profile breeds we've seen so far have looked. Yes, many of them show at least some improvement over previous years but it's just not enough. No dog should ever be a shape that means it's eyelids gape away from its eyeballs, or should have a completely and utterly flat face with no nose protrusion at all :nonod: 

The only breed that looked good so far was the bloodhound which I thought was a lovely dog.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

Loved all three of the poodles and the chinese crested. Hope the standard gets BIS tomorrow


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> I'm really disappointed at how bad most of the high profile breeds we've seen so far have looked. Yes, many of them show at least some improvement over previous years but it's just not enough. No dog should ever be a shape that means it's eyelids gape away from its eyeballs, or should have a completely and utterly flat face with no nose protrusion at all :nonod:
> 
> The only breed that looked good so far was the bloodhound which I thought was a lovely dog.


And yet they will all have been checked by a vet and pronounced healthy, or they would not be in the group ring.

Could it be that the Canine Alliance were right when they insisted that vet checks at champ shows would do nothing to help the health of the high profile breeds?


----------



## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree - I wish they'd show them with their normal coat instead of messed about like that. He's a fantastic example of the breed though - I reckon he's odds on for BIS even though I really want the Irish Wolfhound to win.


So did a poodle win. I went out and left it to record and it didn't. :crying:
I just tried to start watching it on 40d but it refused to play.

What do you call their normal coat. If left natural their coat will reach the ground and they used to be shown corded.

I think the idea of the lion clip is that it streamlines them through the water and the pom poms on their legs protects their joints. I do not find their bare bums very attractive though.


----------



## ChavasRegal (Aug 14, 2013)

Colette said:


> Glad the chow wasn't placed after its reaction to the judge.


That's exactly how Teddy reacts to people he's unsure of when they reach over the top of him.

Made me and the wife smile, typical chow reaction.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Blitz said:


> So did a poodle win. I went out and left it to record and it didn't. :crying:
> I just tried to start watching it on 40d but it refused to play.
> 
> What do you call their normal coat. If left natural their coat will reach the ground and they used to be shown corded.
> ...


Yeah, Ricky, the Afterglow standard poodle owned by Jason Lynne won - not surprising really as he's been winning everything during this last year. I reckon he'll get BIS

Corded soiunds good to me - but then I do like corded dogs 

I know the theory behind the lion clip - I just think it looks silly - equally as silly as the lowenchen and the portugese water dog or any other breed which is shaved or part-shaved.


----------



## the melster (Mar 20, 2010)

The commentary has annoyed me a little tonight. The vet dismissed anything other than annual vaccinations in a very sweeping one sided 'opinion'. Also the assured breeders scheme was made to sound like the holy grail of breeding!! 

That aside even though I don't like the cut of the poodle and didn't quite believe he lived as a normal dog running out in the mud he was a stunning looking dog. Also made me smile that the pic of the puppy with the GSD which has been behind Claire all through was a cockerpoo puppy lol


----------



## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

the melster said:


> The commentary has annoyed me a little tonight. The vet dismissed anything other than annual vaccinations in a very sweeping one sided 'opinion'. Also the assured breeders scheme was made to sound like the holy grail of breeding!!


Yeah this annoyed me. The vet was almost aggressive in his manner regarding vaccinations.


----------



## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Yes that vet was utterly dismissive of any view but the traditional.

And like last year, in all the talk about 'good' breeders, nobody mentioned health testing?! Unless they did and I missed it?


----------



## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Appalling that a vet told a bull terrier and it's owners at discover dogs to leave

The dog has lethal acrodermatitis and was taken to discover dogs to make people aware of this condition that only occurs in bull terriers , he was not stressed and enjoying lots of attention and cuddles from the public .

Lethal Acrodermatitis (LAD)

The said vet wasn't even aware that condition existed at first , shame on him .


----------



## mummyschnauzer (Sep 30, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yes, I was watching what was happening. What did you expect him to do to ask her to stand up? What *other* signal could he have used? Maybe he could have walked closer and simply asked her, but the thought that she (or anyone else) could mistake him pointing and asking for her to stand as anything except a request to stand next to her dog rather than kneel down, probably never crossed his mind.
> 
> it is disappointing that there was a bit of confusion about the request, but I'm sure it wasn't vindictive or meant to be 'nasty'.


I'm sorry SL but I watched this and to me , walking over to a woman whether she be standing up or sitting down, at this late stage in the judging, was a clear indication that he was choosing her dog, and the watching crowds by the evidence of their gasps meant only one thing to me and others that he was giving it to her, it was mentally cruel even if he had lost train of thought, and he instantantly walked away from her and gave it to to the Irish Wolfhound.

It happened today where a standard Schnauzer was in the ring, and I was standing by a retired judge and she pointed out the one she would have picked and the judge picked a completely different dog than the one that appeared to be that much better. I truly believe there is nothing written in stone that breed judges are guided by, it is whatever they fancy on the day.


----------



## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Hanwombat said:


> The peke IMO is a disgusting breed and is unbelievably cruel, there are several breeds I think are cruel but the peke is top I think. It looks nothing like a dog, more like a rug on legs... the face is so flat... its just awful and so sad


A picture of a peke smuggled out of China in the 1900 looks nothing like the rug on legs that was bob at crufts.

AH CUM - World Pedigree DataBase Pekingese, Pekingese Pedigree DataBase.

Not my cup of tea, but at least he looks like a dog. How can people not see the exaggerations that showing has done.

In fact, I hated a lot of the coats of the toy breeds. They are totally impractical and groomed towards an inch of their lives and look unnatural.

And another comparison
http://www.border-wars.com/2013/02/the-peke-doesnt-stand-a-chance.html


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## cravensmum (Jun 28, 2010)

I have posted this before,but we had 2 Peke's when I was growing up.

This was taken about 35 years ago and this Peke had just been walking in the Lakeland fells for about 6 miles before this picture was taken.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> A picture of a peke smuggled out of China in the 1900 looks nothing like the rug on legs that was bob at crufts.


 Rug? It was fully upholstered cushion, and and over stuffed one at that.


----------



## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> A picture of a peke smuggled out of China in the 1900 looks nothing like the rug on legs that was bob at crufts.
> 
> AH CUM - World Pedigree DataBase Pekingese, Pekingese Pedigree DataBase.
> 
> ...


Jesus! What have they done to it!!!!?


----------



## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

dandogman said:


> They claim it has a practical purpose... would love to see that working... *based* on a working cut maybe.





Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I can't help it, I simply don't like the way the Poodle coats look when they're cut like that.


It would seem that they don't cut the dogs like that anymore to work but back when Poodles did gundog work the cut they were given, was for the purpose. The hair they leave on was to protect vital organs and joints. Whilst the bits that weren't clipped helped them move efficiently through the water. As were a lot of the other waterdogs back in those times.

You know - this thread makes me giggle. Not to offend anyone but I was called an armchair judge who knew nothing and basically told I should keep quiet as to not offend anyone on a subject I didn't know - guess what my remark was? "Is it me or do a couple of the agility dogs look a tad overweight".. :shocked: Now I wasn't saying they were fat nor commenting on the sport itself, I just thought a couple were carrying more weight than I would've had them carrying. And here you lot are slating and applauding loads of dogs :lol:

Ah well - suppose Crufts is a tense time for those in the know.

I haven't watched much apart from the agility on live streaming. Hoping to watch Gundogs tonight on more4 though - Thankfully not working for this one


----------



## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

Colin or the rottie to win!


----------



## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

We were disgusted here that the Dalmatian didn't even make the short cut :lol: he was the only one wagging his tail in the line up.


----------



## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Coffee said:


> We were disgusted here that the Dalmatian didn't even make the short cut :lol: he was the only one wagging his tail in the line up.


Pff, Pom for the win 

GO TEAM BUMB....I mean...GO TEAM COLIN :lol:


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I did have a giggle at the Parson  IMHO, although, yeah, it barked at the judge... It should still have made the shortlist. It was gorgeous and a perfect example of the breed. If ever in doubt, bark 

I'm not biased at all!


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> Pff, Pom for the win
> 
> GO TEAM BUMB....I mean...GO TEAM COLIN :lol:


I thought of you when the Pom won the group lol!

It was a gorgeous little dog an Colin is such a great name


----------



## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Lauren5159 said:


> I did have a giggle at the Parson  IMHO, although, yeah, it barked at the judge... It should still have made the shortlist. It was gorgeous and a perfect example of the breed. If ever in doubt, bark
> 
> I'm not biased at all!


Nooo that's the spitz motto :lol: :lol:

If in doubt - bark

If not in doubt - bark just in case :lol:

I must admit; I wouldn't (well, I would because I'm biased but  ) have picked Colin this year, he 'looks' not as healthy and sure-fire as 2 years ago's pom did, nor did he look 100% pom 'healthy'.

Not sure if it's the way his tongue was hanging or what but I don't think he'd have been my pick


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Flamingoes said:


> Nooo that's the spitz motto :lol: :lol:
> 
> If in doubt - bark
> 
> ...


I thought he was uber cute, but then, I don't know the breed... My mum wants one so she can cut it's hair like Boo 

The lineup for BIS is a tough one this year though. I usually have one dog in mind that I want to win but this year, I'm rather torn


----------



## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Lauren5159 said:


> I thought he was uber cute, but then, I don't know the breed... My mum wants one so she can cut it's hair like Boo
> 
> The lineup for BIS is a tough one this year though. I usually have one dog in mind that I want to win but this year, I'm rather torn


I've obviously got my eye on Colin but I'd like the Rottie to win to be honest 

They're one of my favourite breeds and they need the good publicity as others have said.

Yes, I had my eye on yours, too :lol: xxxx


----------



## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Yes that vet was utterly dismissive of any view but the traditional.
> 
> And like last year, in all the talk about 'good' breeders, nobody mentioned health testing?! Unless they did and I missed it?


I felt quite embarrassed when I thought of my cupboard with "wacky remedies" that I inflict on the dogs .


----------



## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Gemmaa said:


> I felt quite embarrassed when I thought of my cupboard with "wacky remedies" that I inflict on the dogs .


You've lost your mind :yesnod:

Good breeders don't ever show, didn't you know that?


----------



## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm sad it's almost all over for another year! Boooooooo. I've loved the agility as usual, especially small dog. Small dog everything I love. 

Does anyone have the livestream still running playing oooom pa ba doo ba doo ba dabada music playing?! It's going to drive me mad but I can't turn it off :lol:


----------



## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

jenniferx said:


> I *think* just from the way he was breathing that it actually looked a bit like he had a reverse sneezing attack! The handler also at one point put her finger over his nose which is what you can do to get them to open their mouths and interrupt the breathing to stop the spasm.
> 
> It's quite a traditional line up thus far isn't it, for BIS?


That's exactly what I thought as that's the posture my 2 both take if they are having a reverse sneezing attack,with their necks slightly arching and if they are walking it looks like they are going to squat to poop which is what I thought the Tibetan Spaniel was going to do at first until it also arched it's neck. I also noticed she put a finger over his nostrils when she got back in line which is what I do.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> I did have a giggle at the Parson  IMHO, although, yeah, it barked at the judge... It should still have made the shortlist. It was gorgeous and a perfect example of the breed. If ever in doubt, bark
> 
> I'm not biased at all!


In fairness, temperament is important and forms part of the breed standard. Things we may dismiss or tolerate as pet owners are simply not acceptable in potential breeding dogs. And I can imagine the criticism if a dog with a dodgy temperament won.

PS - I'm not saying the parson had a dodgy temperament, and dogs can have off days but barking at the human (whether a judge or not) is not good for any breed.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> In fairness, temperament is important and forms part of the breed standard. Things we may dismiss or tolerate as pet owners are simply not acceptable in potential breeding dogs. And I can imagine the criticism if a dog with a dodgy temperament won.
> 
> PS - I'm not saying the parson had a dodgy temperament, and dogs can have off days but barking at the human (whether a judge or not) is not good for any breed.


I was only joking.

I know that temperament is very important... I was having a laugh. I don't tolerate Skip barking at strangers as we walk past.


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Bit of a random question, but does anyone know the kennel name of the Lhasa Apso breeder in the breeders stakes? (have I got that right?) Thanks in advance


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Argent said:


> Bit of a random question, but does anyone know the kennel name of the Lhasa Apso breeder in the breeders stakes? (have I got that right?) Thanks in advance


Was it Zentarr? Could be wrong but I thought it was the same kennel that the Lhasa BiS was from a couple of years ago.

The Ibizans were absolutely stunning. Might have to try and chat to some owners/breeders this year at shows...... :biggrin:


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> Was it Zentarr? Could be wrong but I thought it was the same kennel that the Lhasa BiS was from a couple of years ago.
> 
> The Ibizans were absolutely stunning. Might have to try and chat to some owners/breeders this year at shows...... :biggrin:


Thanks very much! 
And yes, the Ibizans were indeed beautiful! As were the Pharoh Hounds, they both have a really striking look about them


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Did they show the wrong poodle on the video on tv?


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Love the long haired pointer :thumbup1:


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

MrRustyRead said:


> Did they show the wrong poodle on the video on tv?


Yes! Silly editing people.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Oooooo i'm excited, Mary and Richard together! :thumbup1: i'm not leaving my seat anytime soon


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## Dog Springs (Sep 24, 2012)

Omg was that the start of the fight in flyball that they just showed on Channel 4 as one of the highlights?!!


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Dog Springs said:


> Omg was that the start of the fight in flyball that they just showed on Channel 4 as one of the highlights?!!


I thought it might have been as well. I hate stuff like that, TV coverage of horsey events always involves gratuitous slow motion shots of falls and such, it's so distasteful.


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## Jem121 (May 6, 2012)

Dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but that labrador was so chunky!
Is that the breed standard?


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Jem121 said:


> Dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but that labrador was so chunky!
> Is that the breed standard?


Haha this went round last year! He may of been muscle


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Loved Mary and Curtis just then - I've very little interest in heelwork to music but enjoyed watching that.

Fed up of the Friends for Life bit  - seeing the stories once would have been plenty!

Looking forward to BIS - don't like the Poodle or Cocker, but would be quite happy to see any of the others take it.



Jem121 said:


> Dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but that labrador was so chunky!
> Is that the breed standard?


I think that debate was done to death after he got reserve BIS last year!


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## Jem121 (May 6, 2012)

SixStar said:


> I think that debate was done to death after he got reserve BIS last year!


Sorry didnt realise.

Personally i think he looks chunky. But i dont want to start a massive debate so ill leave it here.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Not a fan of the American cockers, it's their faces I think. Think I'll root for the Rottweiler  and as a back-up, the Wire Fox Terrier


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Jem121 said:


> Sorry didnt realise.
> 
> Personally i think he looks chunky. But i dont want to start a massive debate so ill leave it here.


No problem  - I'm sure they'll be another debate this year too anyway! Chunky is putting it lightly IMO!


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Labrador was fat!
VERY disappointed with the gundog choice... that is not a gundog IMO!

Wire fox to win for me... I would have liked the wirehaired pointer to have won the gundog group, it was lovely.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I'm rooting for either the rottie or wolfhound :thumbup1:


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Really not a fan of the American Cocker! 

Apart from that, I like them all


----------



## Jem121 (May 6, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> Labrador was fat!
> VERY disappointed with the gundog choice... that is not a gundog IMO!
> 
> Wire fox to win for me... I would have liked the wirehaired pointer to have won the gundog group, it was lovely.


Yes agree!
Wire fox or samoyed for me to win!
Gorgeous dogs


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## bella2013 (Aug 29, 2013)

I like them all too but not the american cocker, but i bet any money it'll win


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

Hoping the Rottie or Pom gets it


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

other half got live feed from youtube next me on other laptop.

im not taking much notice but casting my eye back and forth and just noted little bichon (?) having crap in ring.

excellent. respects. give that one a prize :thumbup1:


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm hoping for either the rottie or the Irish wolfhound. Being the hound I'm biased towards the wolfie but it'd be so lovely for a rottie to get BiS.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the standard poodle got it though, that dog is such a showman.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

suspect Ricky the poodle will


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

The poodle's a dead cert


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The poodle's a dead cert


Yeah, would like the Wolfhound or Pom to get it though


----------



## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

really not liking the American cocker spaniel - it doesn't have a head - no room for a brain in there.

The rottie is very nice - moving well

Sammy not looking totally happy - still a nice dog but not doing it for me

Wire fox is ok but again not doing it for me

Poodle is ok but difficult to see with the silly haircut - also really don't like the way they have the chain under his chin - would like to see how he moves on a flat collar - probably better

Wolfhound is a nice boy - again moving well - would like to see him win

Pom is again a nice dog, looks like a lot of personality but not my type of dog

I'd like to see the wolfhound or the rottie win - but suspect it will be the poodle or pom


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

cloversmum said:


> Yeah, would like the Wolfhound or Pom to get it though


The wolfhound looks a fabulous boy, and moved beautifully, but I think the poodle will get it, that's the *talk* around the ringside.


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The wolfhound looks a fabulous boy, and moved beautifully, but I think the poodle will get it, that's the *talk* around the ringside.


Yeah even the commentary people have said he's the fav


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

As an aside, I think it was pretty ridiculous to describe the Peke as fit for function, it was really struggling!


----------



## Jem121 (May 6, 2012)

Ive got a sneaky suspicion poodle will win!

Hopefully it doesnt!!


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

I actually find that American cocker quite creepy with the longish neck then teeny little head, it just looks 'wrong' somehow :001_huh:


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Wolfhound, Rottie or Sammie for me...


----------



## Dog Springs (Sep 24, 2012)

I don't mind American Cockers in general but that one with its long neck and domed head makes me think of ET...


----------



## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

no surprise there then. Glad Dan the man got the reserve


----------



## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Well, no surprises there :wink:


----------



## bella2013 (Aug 29, 2013)

Surprise Surprise


----------



## Guest (Mar 9, 2014)

Poodle won, still think it should have been Dan the man that got best in show.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Think we all knew that was coming! Pleased with the Sammy in reserve though, lovely smiley boy.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Yeah, I don't think anyone was surprised by that choice...

Great that Dan the Man got reserve


----------



## SarahPlzX (Nov 13, 2011)

I know nothing about the show world. Why is everyone against the Poodle winning?

I thought he was a beaut. Even with the 80's haircut :thumbup1:


----------



## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

Is it just me or does anyone else think ugly dogs seem to win crafts? The poodle was by far ugliest dog there. I don't see point having a dog purely for show like that and some others are. I would much prefer a dog with normal hair than one decorated for show.


----------



## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Not particularly happy with that result... glad the Sammie got reserve.


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

SarahPlzX said:


> I know nothing about the show world. Why is everyone against the Poodle winning?
> 
> I thought he was a beaut. Even with the 80's haircut :thumbup1:


I don't think anyone is _against_ the Poodle winning as such - just that it was so obvious he was going to! Felt a bit sorry for the other dogs in the ring to be honest, the Poodle had won it before they stepped in the ring I think.

That aside, personally speaking, he is just not my kind of dog at all.


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

SarahPlzX said:


> I know nothing about the show world. *Why is everyone against the Poodle winning?*
> 
> I thought he was a beaut. Even with the 80's haircut :thumbup1:


i was wondering that to! i haven't watched it yet- it's all recorded for during the week as its been hectic here!
is it a dislike of the breed, cut or the dog itself?
i'm just annoyed my future breeders boy didn't beat that poodle!


----------



## SarahPlzX (Nov 13, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> i was wondering that to! i haven't watched it yet- it's all recorded for during the week as its been hectic here!
> is it a dislike of the breed, cut or the dog itself?
> i'm just annoyed my future breeders boy didn't beat that poodle!


Ha! Same. He looked lovely in the ring too, have you seen on fb?

It's probably the cut...I don't think it's that bad?  aw well, I thought he was lush :001_wub:


----------



## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

koolchick said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else think ugly dogs seem to win crafts? The poodle was by far ugliest dog there. I don't see point having a dog purely for show like that and some others are.* I would much prefer a dog with normal hair than one decorated for show.*


as an aside
i also hate the 'continental' cut, but it is the cut designed to help them work! :thumbup1:



SarahPlzX said:


> Ha! Same. He looked lovely in the ring too, have you seen on fb?
> 
> It's probably the cut...I don't think it's that bad?  aw well, I thought he was lush :001_wub:


i know right!?!? OMG i want!!!!! i just want to steal HIM!

mine will be kept in the miami cut


----------



## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

SixStar said:


> I don't think anyone is _against_ the Poodle winning as such - just that it was so obvious he was going to! Felt a bit sorry for the other dogs in the ring to be honest, the Poodle had won it before they stepped in the ring I think.
> 
> That aside, personally speaking, he is just not my kind of dog at all.


Nor mine. I'm quite conservative about my dog breeds though  I am not a fan of the heavily groomed look, I like dogs that look fit for function and healthy, the labs, cockers, retrievers, newfies, Berneses, ridgies, rotties, staffies etc. Some of the smaller ones looked like walking rugs or mops to me :lol:


----------



## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Oh! I'm not against the Poodle winning. Fair play to them. 

It's just, like others said, it was obvious he was going to win. 

A Standard Poodle is on my dream list


----------



## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Bleh, nothing against the poodle but it felt a bit cliche... at least he's retiring this year and will give some other dog a chance at BIS for 2015.

Colin and James were my winners, though Dan the Sammy was beautiful!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SarahPlzX said:


> I know nothing about the show world. Why is everyone against the Poodle winning?
> 
> I thought he was a beaut. Even with the 80's haircut :thumbup1:


Because they're rewarding the wrong end of the lead!


----------



## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Fluffster said:


> Nor mine. I'm quite conservative about my dog breeds though  I am not a fan of the heavily groomed look, I like dogs that look fit for function and healthy, the labs, cockers, retrievers, newfies, Berneses, ridgies, rotties, staffies etc. Some of the smaller ones looked like walking rugs or mops to me :lol:


Yes, I'm the same. A lot of breeds do absolutely nothing for me 

Although I am sure Ricky is a perfectly lovely dog, in the ring he came across as a robot with no character or zest at all.


----------



## SarahPlzX (Nov 13, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Because they're rewarding the wrong end of the lead!


I wish I understood what you mean 

Do you mean rewarding the kennel? Or the handler? Why would they do that?

Total show world newbie. I just thought he looked nice, haha!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SarahPlzX said:


> I wish I understood what you mean
> 
> Do you mean rewarding the kennel? Or the handler? Why would they do that?
> 
> Total show world newbie. I just thought he looked nice, haha!


Some judges reward the person who owns the dog, so although the poodle may be a *nice* example, the odds are stacked in their favour because of who owns and handles them. Of course when the judge then takes their dog in the ring a few years down the line .......... 

It's called swapping tickets, and it happens a lot unfortunately. Still doesn't put me off showing, as I always have the best dogs anyway, but it's a shame there are some who reward the face holding the lead rather than the dog. I've even seen a judge look briefly at a dog, then take a good long look at the handler, before going over the dog.

Same sort of thing happens in all competitions where humans are involved, some will always put winning above fairness.


----------



## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Really disappointed that the Poodle won. Really disliked the handling of the dog, his eyes looked like they were popping out! 

Would've preferred any other dog in the line up to have won tbh


----------



## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

WeedySeaDragon said:


> I actually find that American cocker quite creepy with the longish neck then teeny little head, it just looks 'wrong' somehow :001_huh:


Yes, out of all those beautiful gundog breeds it looks the least likely to actually do any work.


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## Rainbow79 (Feb 21, 2014)

koolchick said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else think ugly dogs seem to win crafts? The poodle was by far ugliest dog there. I don't see point having a dog purely for show like that and some others are. I would much prefer a dog with normal hair than one decorated for show.


Not ugly, most dogs aren't ugly, but some aren't exactly cute. The poodle would have looked x a million better if it didn't have such a utterly stupid cut. Looks so awful and daft, like they've taken big chunks out of it. The little ones aren't too bad but the standard just borders on lunacy - who would really want to walk a dog that looks like that in public?! Shame cus poodles are really nice when left au naturale

Some breeds looking better than they did, but the Bassett hound was bad and the Pekingnese looked awful, like a bog brush not a dog.

Liked the Samoyed and the Pommie, wanted the pommie to win, but then I'm kinda biased cus I love those.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> Yes, out of all those beautiful gundog breeds it looks the least likely to actually do any work.


I have seen a video of a working Am Cocker, they were apparently developed to hunt quail, although why the traditional cocker wasn't sufficient for the job I'm not sure. The extra coat is a definite hindrance, and has to be clipped for them to work.

But then you could train a collie to do gundog work if you wanted to, doesn't make it a gundog


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I thought 

Wolf Hound 
Sammy 
Rottie.

The difference in the way the Poodle and the Terrier were handled to the Samyoed and Wolf Hound.


But it was obvious the poodle had won . shame IMO


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Liked all three of them, particularly the wolfhound. And I liked the pomeranian, he had a lot of attitude and moved nicely.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Such a shame to see that the poodle was a result of a half sibling mating. It's been very well documented that inbreeding in the standard poodle is causing decreased longevity and poor health.

"The genetic diversity of the Standard Poodle has been reduced to the point where the immune system is seriously compromised. Without a competent immune system, dogs have no defense against the pathogens that we all encounter on a daily basis. Further, loss of the ability of the immune system to distinguish between an external pathogen and its own tissue is being manifested as skyrocketing rates of autoimmune disorders such as Addison's disease and sebaceous adenitis. These are horrible diseases for which there are no veterinary treatments adequate to restore an animal to normal health. Genetic research can increase our understanding of the underlying pathology of inherited diseases in dogs, but there is nothing geneticists can do to "fix" this problem. Many of the genes necessary for a functional immune system in Poodles have been lost from the breed's gene pool, and there is no modern technology that will restore it to proper function. "

(letter to the Canadian poodle club from canine biologists 2013)

Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Poodles - running out of time
What is COI

When are people going to stop rewarding inbred dogs? Does nobody care that dogs will suffer because of it?


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have seen a video of a working Am Cocker, they were apparently developed to hunt quail, although why the traditional cocker wasn't sufficient for the job I'm not sure. *The extra coat is a definite hindrance, and has to be clipped for them to work. *
> But then you could train a collie to do gundog work if you wanted to, doesn't make it a gundog


Can see why.
Loved the fact that the Golden came second and the Flatcoat third in the gundog group.
The long haired german pointer is a beautiful breed too that has quite taken my fancy.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

cbrookman said:


> Can see why.
> Loved the fact that the Golden came second and the Flatcoat third in the gundog group.
> The long haired german pointer is a beautiful breed too that has quite taken my fancy.


I have seen many photos, yesterday was the first time I had actually met a German Long Haired Pointer. completely smitten.
Also really liked the Lagotto Romagolo,


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

cbrookman said:


> Can see why.
> Loved the fact that the Golden came second and the Flatcoat third in the gundog group.
> The long haired german pointer is a beautiful breed too that has quite taken my fancy.


Yes, was good to see the Golden doing well, not that I'm biased or anything.

Guessed the poodle would win the moment it won its group. Not that I thought it was anything outstanding, but as SL said, it's what's at the other end of the lead.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

northnsouth said:


> I thought
> 
> Wolf Hound
> Sammy
> ...


the poodle was great, shame you have an objection to it. The pom was lovely and the wolf hound was spectacular but the poodle was a well deserved winner in most people's eyes.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

Blitz said:


> the poodle was great, shame you have an objection to it. The pom was lovely and the wolf hound was spectacular but the poodle was a well deserved winner in most people's eyes.


I did not say I had an objection....

I stated my preference for best in show. I did not like the way the Poodle was handled. I am not he only one who has said that either...


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Blitz said:


> the poodle was great, shame you have an objection to it. The pom was lovely and the wolf hound was spectacular but the poodle was a well deserved winner in most people's eyes.


It might have been great but sadly all you could see when it ran was the whites of the eyes seemingly because of the hairdo that dragged the skin up! Not a good look.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

northnsouth said:


> I did not say I had an objection....
> 
> I stated my preference for best in show. I did not like the way the Poodle was handled. I am not he only one who has said that either...


You said 'shame imo'. Sounds like an objection.

I have not read any other comments - but what was wrong with the handling. Looked ok to me.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just as an aside, this is Rhuna on the benches at Crufts, so proud of this girl, it was a long hard day considering her favourite thing is running around on a grouse moor getting muddy. She was so good with everyone who wanted to just fuss her, including kids throwing their arms around her, and eventually fell asleep with her head on my knee. I've promised to subject her to lots of muddy puddles over the next few days to make up for her day of being *prissy*


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just as an aside, this is Rhuna on the benches at Crufts, so proud of this girl, it was a long hard day considering her favourite thing is running around on a grouse moor getting muddy. She was so good with everyone who wanted to just fuss her, including kids throwing their arms around her, and eventually fell asleep with her head on my knee. I've promised to subject her to lots of muddy puddles over the next few days to make up for her day of being *prissy*


She is stunning. THAT is my kind of dog :thumbup1:


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

Well done Rhuna. She is lovely, when we had that meet up on the beach she was crazy but gorgeous :lol:


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

SixStar said:


> Yes, I'm the same. A lot of breeds do absolutely nothing for me
> 
> Although I am sure Ricky is a perfectly lovely dog, in the ring he came across as a robot with no character or zest at all.


oh, I could see a lot of character. I could see bits of my old standards peeping out of his eyes.



Rainbow79 said:


> Not ugly, most dogs aren't ugly, but some aren't exactly cute. The poodle would have looked x a million better if it didn't have such a utterly stupid cut. Looks so awful and daft, like they've taken big chunks out of it. The little ones aren't too bad but the standard just borders on lunacy - who would really want to walk a dog that looks like that in public?! Shame cus poodles are really nice when left *au naturale*
> 
> .


erm, no poodles are left au naturel. They would be a matted mess with their coat touching the ground. Basically the lion cut that they are shown in was their working cut when they were water retrievers but, human nature being what it is, it has been exaggerated for show dogs. Better to exaggerate the presentation of their coat though than the exaggerations in other breeds. At least the dog can still be a dog and just need a bath every so often.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Siskin said:


> Yes, was good to see the Golden doing well, not that I'm biased or anything.
> 
> Guessed the poodle would win the moment it won its group. *Not that I thought it was anything outstanding, but as SL said, it's what's at the other end of the lead.*


If that is so, how did the smaller kennel win the reserve above the same kennel?

I think the poodle oozed class and the outline was wonderful, really outstanding.

Loved the Samoyed coming second, lovely dog who seems to have a lovely and soft temperament.

The wolfhound looked quite tired tonight.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I really wanted that Samoyed to win.

At least he got reserve.

I did not like the Poodle at all, sorry but that cut looks absurd.

Thought there were some beauties in the Gundog group - the Irish Setter and the Large Munsterlander were smashing.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

SixStar said:


> Yes, I'm the same. A lot of breeds do absolutely nothing for me
> 
> Although I am sure Ricky is a perfectly lovely dog, in the ring he came across as a robot with no character or zest at all.





dandogman said:


> Really disappointed that the Poodle won. Really disliked the handling of the dog, his eyes looked like they were popping out!
> 
> Would've preferred any other dog in the line up to have won tbh





Siskin said:


> .
> 
> Guessed the poodle would win the moment it won its group. Not that I thought it was anything outstanding, but as SL said, it's what's at the other end of the lead.





sharloid said:


> It might have been great but sadly all you could see when it ran was the whites of the eyes seemingly because of the hairdo that dragged the skin up! Not a good look.





Blitz said:


> You said 'shame imo'. Sounds like an objection.
> 
> I have not read any other comments - but what was wrong with the handling. Looked ok to me.


A few other comments.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Blitz said:


> oh, I could see a lot of character. I could see bits of my old standards peeping out of his eyes.
> 
> erm, no poodles are left au naturel. They would be a matted mess with their coat touching the ground. Basically the lion cut that they are shown in was their working cut when they were water retrievers but, human nature being what it is, it has been exaggerated for show dogs. Better to exaggerate the presentation of their coat though than the exaggerations in other breeds. At least the dog can still be a dog and just need a bath every so often.


I beg to differ, history shows a different poodle....



Proper working poodles!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Poodle wins Crufts yet again....surprise surprise! I wonder if they would be anywhere as successful if they were not shown in that haircut.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I beg to differ, history shows a different poodle....
> 
> 
> 
> Proper working poodles!


The flatcoat looks different too, the head seems a different shape.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sharloid said:


> The flatcoat looks different too, the head seems a different shape.


Yep, and to be fair, it's not the *best* example of a flatcoat from that era, but the breed ring is very much of a type, there is a split in the vast majority of gundog breeds I'm afraid.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I some times walk with a standard Poodle owner, I believe there are two cuts she has mentioned to me, one was I think German Pet Cut, and the one her dog is clipped in , Lamb Cut(??) a far more attractive styling, again* IMO* and she could have made the names up for all I know..


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I beg to differ, history shows a different poodle....
> 
> 
> 
> Proper working poodles!


But then I find:


























I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, just to clarify  I can't prove anything, I'm just saying


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> But then I find:


Yep, but compare that to what was in Crufts today, look at the ears alone!! The cut is undoubtedly historical, but just as many were uncut, and of course fashion has run it's course, and now sculpting dog coats is an art form!


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## SarahPlzX (Nov 13, 2011)

I like the Miami and Scandanavian cuts on Poodles. I don't see the harm in the show cut..it's hair. You can cut it off afterwards. If the owner has the ability to keep a dog in excellent coat condition, good for them. 

I'd hazard a guess that unless a poodle is being competitively shown, they are kept in a more modern cut. I've never seen one in a show cut in everyday life, personally.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yep, but compare that to what was in Crufts today, look at the ears alone!! The cut is undoubtedly historical, but just as many were uncut, and of course fashion has run it's course, and now sculpting dog coats is an art form!


Oh yeah, I totally agree!

But that can unfortunately, be said about a lot of breeds. At least, in regards to the Poodle, it's just the clip that is extreme, not their structure or features.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SarahPlzX said:


> I like the Miami and Scandanavian cuts on Poodles. I don't see the harm in the show cut..it's hair. You can cut it off afterwards. If the owner has the ability to keep a dog in excellent coat condition, good for them.
> 
> I'd hazard a guess that unless a poodle is being competitively shown, they are kept in a more modern cut. I've never seen one in a show cut in everyday life, personally.


I have an online friend who has three mini poodles, they are kept in a similar *cut* to the one I posted, ie just an all over trim, not sculpted.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

Lauren5159 said:


> Oh yeah, I totally agree!
> 
> But that can unfortunately, be said about a lot of breeds. At least, in regards to the Poodle, it's just the clip that is extreme, not their structure or features.


Yes I was going to say, I didn't like the poodle but at least it wasn't deformed like that poor Pekingese or the Basset Hound


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Lauren5159 said:


> But then I find:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See, I think the cuts in those photos look like they have a purpose... what was in that ring today? No. That, IMO, serves no purpose. That dogs fur was so high on his head, what purpose does that serve? I do believe the cut does have a purpose, but not what goes round the show ring.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

SarahPlzX said:


> I like the Miami and Scandanavian cuts on Poodles. I don't see the harm in the show cut..it's hair. You can cut it off afterwards. If the owner has the ability to keep a dog in excellent coat condition, good for them.
> 
> I'd hazard a guess that unless a poodle is being competitively shown, they are kept in a more modern cut. I've never seen one in a show cut in everyday life, personally.


Most Poodles are kept in the 'lamb clip' when they are not being primed for the show ring. In fact, the picture of tonight's BIS, on the breeders website, shows Ricki in a lamb clip


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## SarahPlzX (Nov 13, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I have an online friend who has three mini poodles, they are kept in a similar *cut* to the one I posted, ie just an all over trim, not sculpted.


I think most are kept in a short trim. I know my future standard will be kept short all over with fluffy head and ears..similar to my Bichon.

I do agree the show trim is waaay out there-but it's just hair. At least the dog was fit, lean and looked healthy.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I liked the poodle! I thought he was very striking and poised. I quite like that static, focused stand that he had. I can see why some people might find it a bit vacant but it just looked professional to me! 

For me Crufts is really all about enjoying the daytime Agility and Flyball competitions and I really did again this year. One year I will go myself, I keep saying it but I will!


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

Nah gutted the poodle won, really didn't like him or thought he deserved to win.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

northnsouth said:


> I some times walk with a standard Poodle owner, I believe there are two cuts she has mentioned to me, one was I think German Pet Cut, and the one her dog is clipped in , Lamb Cut(??) a far more attractive styling, again* IMO* and she could have made the names up for all I know..


Doubting Thomas found these..

LAMB TRIM - finishing


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

This was my first time watching Crufts actually, and I really enjoyed the flyball and agility stuff. Wasn't overly keen on the showing if I'm honest, I prefer my dogs scruffy and covered in mud :lol: and I didn't like some of the breeds who clearly had health problems, or the ones who were basically strung up as they were hauled round the ring, I found that a bit upsetting to watch. It was nice to see breeds I'd never heard of though, or heard of but never seen pictures of and it's confirmed what kind of dogs I like and might want for the future


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

just disappeared to watch BIS...
i think the sammy should have won, and adored the pom and wolfhound, though i don't think the wolfie enjoyed the ring as much as he could- certainly not as much as the pom did!
must say, i didn't think Ricky looked too pleased at times- just the look he kept giving! lol i suppose his eyes stood out because of the contrast, but it was a bit...

loved Dans handlers (owner?) reation when he walked towards her- you could tell she didn't see it coming and was so overjoyed!

i really don't like that exaggerated cut for the ring- mine will (fingers crossed) be shown, but in the cut shown on the kc site- The Kennel Club
and lets hope they mean it when they say they'll be judged on equal merit!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> But then I find:


Couple of comments about the poodles in those pics. Firstly, they aren't brushed out, which makes the coat fluffy and bouffant. And also, poodle hair IS long, if you allow it to grow long, so the coat of the Poodle at Crufts was kept longer than these and brushed into fluff.

I would think you could have achieved the same effect with the dogs in the photos, had there been desire to do so.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> Yes! Silly editing people.


I'm glad i wasnt the only one to notice! i thought he looks small.... then it clicked.


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## lozzibear (Feb 5, 2010)

Just read on FB that a GBGV has died in France on the way home 

News >Dog World >Dog World Home >Dogworld


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

lozzibear said:


> Just read on FB that a GBGV has died in France on the way home
> 
> News >Dog World >Dog World Home >Dogworld


That's really sad


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

lozzibear said:


> Just read on FB that a GBGV has died in France on the way home
> 
> News >Dog World >Dog World Home >Dogworld


Oh No how sad..


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Just read about that too! How terrible for the poor owner. Such a tragic way to end such a great weekend. Can only imagine how heartbroken she must be:frown:


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## Rainbow79 (Feb 21, 2014)

Blitz said:


> oh, I could see a lot of character. I could see bits of my old standards peeping out of his eyes.
> 
> erm, no poodles are left au naturel. They would be a matted mess with their coat touching the ground. Basically the lion cut that they are shown in was their working cut when they were water retrievers but, human nature being what it is, it has been exaggerated for show dogs. Better to exaggerate the presentation of their coat though than the exaggerations in other breeds. At least the dog can still be a dog and just need a bath every so often.


That clip is not natural! It looks stupid beyond belief, and you can't take the dog seriously as it looks so daft. Why would anyone want it too look like that, you wouldn't half shave a golden retriever would you? Or half shave a Dulux dog so its head was fluffy but its @r$ was bare! That dog looked like it had had an unfortunate encounter with a lawn mower, and the owner had tried to compensate by overdoing the bits that were left. And you wouldn't have to leave them go matted, just cut it to a shortish length ALL over, similar to a curly coat retriever or Labradoodle, anything but make the poor dog look like a poncey nancy boy. To quote Angel, "prancing away like a magnificent poof" sums it up to perfection.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

northnsouth said:


> I some times walk with a standard Poodle owner, I believe there are two cuts she has mentioned to me, one was I think German Pet Cut, and the one her dog is clipped in , Lamb Cut(??) a far more attractive styling, again* IMO* and she could have made the names up for all I know..





northnsouth said:


> Doubting Thomas found these..
> 
> LAMB TRIM - finishing


I had a standard poodle who lived until he was 14. He was always cut like this (very old photo, probably mid 1980s). Not really sure if that's a pet cut or a lamb cut, I've always referred to it as a lamb cut though. That wasn't taken straight after a visit to the groomers, so he would have come back a bit shorter all over but never with such a big difference between the body and the legs as in the link.










The one in your link doesn't seem as practical for an everyday cut IMO, the fluffy legs look like hard work!

I've not heard of the German Pet Cut before and I don't like the show cut.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

The first poodle won in 1955, very different compared to now.


















He's the 4th Standard poodle to win crufts.

The most popular wins have come from Cockers (english) with 7 of them winning best in show, the last cocker winner was 1996.

Funny enough the very first winner was a pomeranian


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

SpringerHusky said:


> The first poodle won in 1955, very different compared to now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well @rse :lol: I'm not impressed and clearly they made the wrong choice 

Horrific about the other poor woof and run free  she must be heartbroken


----------



## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

The first poodle to win Westminster was in 1935, also very different.

















This was a painting of him

I actually love looking at old photos, some breeds have changed and some have hardly changed.









This is a Wire fox terrier that won BIS at westminster twice in 1915-1916.









Then in 1917 this wire fox won.









This was an Airedale in 1922.









Scotch collie now a Rough collie back in 1906 that won crufts









I think I liked field spaniels better now, this guy looks like a basset mix. This was a crufts winner in 1909.

Lots of very interesting dogs.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Just catching up - after watching BIS and then having to get right to the North car park we were too late and too tired getting home last night to log on here!

Thought the BIS was a well-deserved winner. I'm not a fan of the lion cut but underneath all that is a very sound dog, which is what it's all about - something that _some_ people on here seem to be missing! 



koolchick said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else think ugly dogs seem to win crafts? The poodle was by far ugliest dog there. I don't see point having a dog purely for show like that and some others are. I would much prefer a dog with normal hair than one decorated for show.


Labelling an animal "ugly" is a subjective comment that serves no purpose - what one person thinks is ugly another will find extremely attractive.

As for the cut - it is not "decorated for show" It is a cut born out of necessity that working poodles have sported for many, many years.



SarahPlzX said:


> I know nothing about the show world. Why is everyone against the Poodle winning?
> 
> I thought he was a beaut. Even with the 80's haircut :thumbup1:


I don't think anyone is agaiinst his winning - exept for the odd one or two who seem to think that some sort of skullduggery like ticket swapping was going on. Didn't like the haircut myself, but he is a stunning dog.



Jem121 said:


> Dont know if anyone has mentioned it, but that labrador was so chunky!
> Is that the breed standard?


The fattest dog in the BIS ring last night was the springer spaniel from the gamekeepers' classes.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Because they're rewarding the wrong end of the lead!


Absolute rubbish. not to mention slanderous. This dog has won big competitions all over the world. THAT was why everyone was tipping him to win BIS at Crufts. :angry:



Sleeping_Lion said:


> Some judges reward the person who owns the dog, so although the poodle may be a *nice* example, the odds are stacked in their favour because of who owns and handles them. Of course when the judge then takes their dog in the ring a few years down the line ..........
> 
> It's called swapping tickets, and it happens a lot unfortunately. Still doesn't put me off showing, as I always have the best dogs anyway, but it's a shame there are some who reward the face holding the lead rather than the dog. I've even seen a judge look briefly at a dog, then take a good long look at the handler, before going over the dog.
> 
> Same sort of thing happens in all competitions where humans are involved, some will always put winning above fairness.


Forwarding your comments on to Jason and Mike - you'll probably be hearing from them.



emmaviolet said:


> If that is so, how did the smaller kennel win the reserve above the same kennel?
> 
> I think the poodle oozed class and the outline was wonderful, really outstanding.
> .


Exactly. Well said.



MerlinsMum said:


> Couple of comments about the poodles in those pics. Firstly, they aren't brushed out, which makes the coat fluffy and bouffant. And also, poodle hair IS long, if you allow it to grow long, so the coat of the Poodle at Crufts was kept longer than these and brushed into fluff.
> 
> I would think you could have achieved the same effect with the dogs in the photos, had there been desire to do so.


Again, well said!


----------



## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> Thought the BIS was a well-deserved winner. I'm not a fan of the lion cut but underneath all that is a very sound dog, which is what it's all about


This.

Personally I wanted the rott to win (biased I know); also liked the wolfhound and the pom. But that's all my own preferences - I know bugger all about conformation in those breeds; just thought they looked good. The fox terrier not my cup of tea but looked superb imo.

I think the poodle taking BIS was fair enough - he did seem to show nicely, and looked good (what uyou could see oof him under the coat). Personally I can't stand the over-exaggerated clips - but that's my problem; doesn't detract from the dog.

I was more disappointed by some of the dogs that one bob; the french bulldog for example with horrendously stentic nares; and as for that pekenese that they claimed was "not exaggerated" 

I think the final line up was nice - dogs that could walk, run, breathe etc normally and all looked good.


----------



## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Can't comment on anything except last nights:

I thought the Lab was a slight chunky myself - but nothing compared to some of the Labs I have seen. I even thought the Flatcoat was also a bit chunky - but it's hard to tell on camera and with the angles being thrown around. I was rooting for the GLP or the GWP to win BOG. And the gundog, no matter how much I disliked the judges choice, to win BIS. I always root for Gundog to win 

Not keen on the Poodles hair but he was brilliant. A worthy winner I think. I know a lot of people are arguing about his hair cut not being fit for purpose.. but then when you think of what Poodles used to do (gundogs) then look at some of the gundogs from last night - there's no way in hell that American Cocker can race through undergrowth..


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I absolutely adored that little American Cocker Spaniel , I was so sad to see a lot of people bad mouthing it in groups and what not  " How is that a gun dog, it's probably never even been on a hunt" ... well I would imagine a lot of the gun dogs have never actually been worked in a field 

I admit I have a soft spot for them though, I grew up next to an ACS breeder and had one myself when younger


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I absolutely adored that little American Cocker Spaniel , I was so sad to see a lot of people bad mouthing it in groups and what not  " How is that a gun dog, it's probably never even been on a hunt" ... well I would imagine a lot of the gun dogs have never actually been worked in a field
> 
> I admit I have a soft spot for them though, I grew up next to an ACS breeder and had one myself when younger


I think that's a very valid point, and quite sad, because that's part of the reason that fashion in the show ring then dictates the direction of how the dog should look *within* the parameters of the breed standard. And it's very possible to lose the functionality from the breed when concentrating purely on aesthetics, and looking at diagrams of how they should run and move, but don't actually prove it.

There were nine flatcoat bitches in the AOV retriever class present, I haven't even bothered to look at how many were in the breed ring, and I know that some of the flatcoats that were also in the same class as me weren't worked, but were signed off for the class somehow. So out of all the flatcoat bitches there, only a small handful were actually worked.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I love Standard Poodles so I'm always going to defend them. 

And by the summer, I should be a fully qualified groomer, so from a grooming perspective, the Poodle clip is the epitome of grooming. It's the hardest cut to master and maintain. 

From the above pictures it's clear that grooming of certain breeds has evolved over the years and the Poodle cut is no different. 

It's clear to me that Poodles are easy targets in the show ring  

I hope that in a couple of years, if I get my Standard Poodle and show her, I don't come under the scrutiny and get shot down like this Ricki and his handler. 

I don't think it's fair to call any dog daft or ugly. Not when that dog is undoubtedly the centre of someone's world.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> I love Standard Poodles so I'm always going to defend them.
> 
> And by the summer, I should be a fully qualified groomer, so from a grooming perspective, the Poodle clip is the epitome of grooming. It's the hardest cut to master and maintain.
> 
> ...


Like all sports/hobbies there are going to be those who bad mouth when their choice didn't win etc.

Poor sportsmanship really when you think that the only thing people have against the Poodle is the amount of hair on top of his head.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> I love Standard Poodles so I'm always going to defend them.
> 
> And by the summer, I should be a fully qualified groomer, so from a grooming perspective, the Poodle clip is the epitome of grooming. It's the hardest cut to master and maintain.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone's called the dogs daft or ugly? 

I haven't any doubts that Ricky is a stunning poodle, but the talk before hand was that he was going to win, and he did. Why is that? Without even seeing the dog but knowing who the owner and handler were, the general feeling was it was *their turn* to win Crufts amongst those in the know, and that filtered down even to my ears.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't think anyone's called the dogs daft or ugly?
> 
> I haven't any doubts that Ricky is a stunning poodle, but the talk before hand was that he was going to win, and he did. Why is that? Without even seeing the dog but knowing who the owner and handler were, the general feeling was it was *their turn* to win Crufts amongst those in the know, and that filtered down even to my ears.


Because he was top dog last year, if you win a lot, you go down as favourite. It's as simple as that.

It is poor form to say that he won because of ticket swapping or who is holding the lead, the dog is a show stopper as soon as he enters the ring and commands the audience to look at him.

The handlers won something many can't even dream about, let them have that.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't think anyone's called the dogs daft or ugly?
> 
> I haven't any doubts that Ricky is a stunning poodle, but the talk before hand was that he was going to win, and he did. Why is that? Without even seeing the dog but knowing who the owner and handler were, the general feeling was it was *their turn* to win Crufts amongst those in the know, and that filtered down even to my ears.


If you look back, it's definitely been called some unfair things.

Maybe everyone knew he was going to win because for the past year, he's been winning all over the world. Including beating some fab dogs to the top in America.

Yes, it was almost obvious he was going to win, but it was still very well deserved. You can't take that from them.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm not really a poodle person but the way he strutted around that ring was mesmerising, a true show dog.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think that's a very valid point, and quite sad, because that's part of the reason that fashion in the show ring then dictates the direction of how the dog should look *within* the parameters of the breed standard. And it's very possible to lose the functionality from the breed when concentrating purely on aesthetics, and looking at diagrams of how they should run and move, but don't actually prove it.
> 
> There were nine flatcoat bitches in the AOV retriever class present, I haven't even bothered to look at how many were in the breed ring, and I know that some of the flatcoats that were also in the same class as me weren't worked, but were signed off for the class somehow. So out of all the flatcoat bitches there, only a small handful were actually worked.


I don't necessarily think gundogs in the show ring should have to be working dogs as not everyone will have the time, money and opportunity to do so. But I do think there should be some kind of test to prove that they are able to work and have the drive, I think some other countries do that. I think the same with dogs in the working group like Sibes.

I really don't like the show/work split and really hope it doesn't happen here in my breed like it is in the rest of the world.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> If you look back, it's definitely been called some unfair things.
> 
> Maybe everyone knew he was going to win because for the past year, he's been winning all over the world. Including beating some fab dogs to the top in America.
> 
> Yes, it was almost obvious he was going to win, but it was still very well deserved. You can't take that from them.


I wish there were a completely impartial way to reward dogs at dog shows, but the simple fact is that there isn't, it's always going to be subjective, and there are always going to be those who are *dishonest* and will get involved with swapping tickets, it's the way of the world. It's a shame that people get involved for their own ego rather than a love of the breed. I know the people who own Ricky also tried showing flatcoats as well, but didn't get anywhere, so gave that up as a bad job. It's a shame they don't just love the dogs simply for owning a fabulous breed, regardless of any success they may, or may not achieve.

The flatcoat ring was all *big* names winning 



sharloid said:


> I don't necessarily think gundogs in the show ring should have to be working dogs as not everyone will have the time, money and opportunity to do so. But I do think there should be some kind of test to prove that they are able to work and have the drive, I think some other countries do that. I think the same with dogs in the working group like Sibes.
> 
> I really don't like the show/work split and really hope it doesn't happen here in my breed like it is in the rest of the world.


There was, a few years ago, and it was dismal, hardly any dogs could retrieve even a dummy! And it was optional


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't think anyone's called the dogs daft or ugly?
> 
> I haven't any doubts that Ricky is a stunning poodle, but the talk before hand was that he was going to win, and he did. *Why is that? * Without even seeing the dog but knowing who the owner and handler were, the general feeling was it was *their turn* to win Crufts amongst those in the know, and that filtered down even to my ears.


This sort of post really makes me angry. Someone who is very new to the show world is trying to make out something underhand has gone on - never seen such sour grapes in my whole life. Casting aspersions and blackening someone's good name like this is totally unacceptable. I've said this before and I'll say it again - once you have some experience behind your belt in the show world, you will understand more of what is happening.

In order to dispel these wicked rumours by Sleeping Lion, the following is *why* people were expecting him to win:

The follwoing was in Dog World newspaper when Ricky *won* (Yes, SL, WON) the Eukanuba World Challenge":

"_2011, Ricky qualified for the Pup of the Year final during 2012 and gained his title at 14 months. At the POTY he reached the final few; it was won by his kennelmate the American Cocker Sh Ch Afterglow Dragon Quest.
His first group came at the National (judge Luis Pinto Teixeira) and he went on to RBIS behind the Wire under Kari Wilberg. Mark Cocozza gave him the group at Blackpool, Rodney Oldham at Windsor and Jeff Horswell at Paignton
At Bournemouth he won his first BIS under Bill Browne-Cole, breeder of his nearest rival, having won the group under Jeff Luscott.
He was RBIS at City of Birmingham (group judge Derek Smith, BIS judge Ronnie Irving), BIS at Richmond (Stuart Mallard and Liz Cartledge), Driffield (Dave Killilea and Robin Searle), Belfast (Steve Hall and Rodney Oldham) and South Wales (Jackie Kitchener and Peter Bailey) and reserve at Midland Counties (judge for both Tom Mather). His last group of the year came at BUBA on Ferelith Somerfields final appointment.
Steve Hall and Patsy Hollings put him up at the champion stakes final, meaning that the kennel accounted for both the main stakes finals of the year.
Ricky also paid a visit to the Poodle Club of America specialty where he was best of winners, and completed his US title at the shows held on the same weekend as the World Challenge.
In all he took 15 CCs, all with BOB, 12 groups including BUBA, two group 2, four group 3, three RBIS and five all-breeds BIS during 2013._ "
Dog World Home >Dogworld

And ALL THAT, Sleepiong Lion, is why he was rumoured to win. The rumours reached your ears because he was an excellent dog, bot because of anything else, and to slur his name like this is totally unacceptable.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Swapping tickets? This dog? Laughable. This dog is exceptional, it doesn't need anything like that to win.

The BIS judge doesn't even show any more, I don't think he will be rewarded for the placement!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> This sort of post really makes me angry. Someone who is very new to the show world is trying to make out something underhand has gone on - never seen such sour grapes in my whole life. Casting aspersions and blackening someone's good name like this is totally unacceptable. I've said this before and I'll say it again - once you have some experience behind your belt in the show world, you will understand more of what is happening.
> 
> In order to dispel these wicked rumours by Sleeping Lion, the following is *why* people were expecting him to win:
> 
> ...


It's a good thing you posted this SW. Some people on here casting their incorrect opinions onto the dog and handler and others who know little too are repeating it back on here too.

It's the case all over the world that when someone has great success people have to try to taint it.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

SLB said:


> Like all sports/hobbies there are going to be those who bad mouth when their choice didn't win etc.
> 
> Poor sportsmanship really when you think that the only thing people have against the Poodle is the amount of hair on top of his head.





emmaviolet said:


> Because he was top dog last year, if you win a lot, you go down as favourite. It's as simple as that.
> 
> It is poor form to say that he won because of ticket swapping or who is holding the lead, the dog is a show stopper as soon as he enters the ring and commands the audience to look at him.
> 
> The handlers won something many can't even dream about, let them have that.


I agree with both the above posts.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wish there were a completely impartial way to reward dogs at dog shows, but the simple fact is that there isn't, it's always going to be subjective, and there are always going to be those who are *dishonest* and will get involved with swapping tickets, it's the way of the world. It's a shame that people get involved for their own ego rather than a love of the breed. I know the people who own Ricky also tried showing flatcoats as well, but didn't get anywhere, so gave that up as a bad job. It's a shame they don't just love the dogs simply for owning a fabulous breed, regardless of any success they may, or may not achieve.
> 
> The flatcoat ring was all *big* names winning


But they have worked damn hard for that 'big name'. They have probably worked solidly to establish their lines over the years and to achieve that 'big name'.

As for the Flatcoat statement. I haven't heard that so can't comment really. But maybe there's a few breeds they like and have tried showing and establishing their own lines, only for it not to work. A lot of show kennels have bred more than one breed of dog over the years and still do. I don't necessarily take that as a negative. They are doing a grand job with their Poodles... How many other breeders do you know that have moved to that breed after years with another breed?... I know a few.

I'm not going to comment about your accusation of them only loving Rickie because he is winning... It's very harsh.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

emmaviolet said:


> It's a good thing you posted this SW. Some people on here casting their incorrect opinions onto the dog and handler and others who know little too are repeating it back on here too.
> 
> It's the case all over the world that when someone has great success people have to try to taint it.


Thank you EV. I can't stand unsportsmanship in any shape or form. Just wanted to show people that Ricky has already won many major titles, and people in the show world were tipping him to win because of that, not because of any other reason. (Except, of course, those who are jealous of his wins and want to start scurrilous rumours - and those who believe and spread those scurrilous rumours )

I think dog showing is the only sport in which people react to winners with such sour grapes - if a horse is tipped to win the Dery, for example, people don't go around saying it's because of his jockey or that it was his turn to win.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> But they have worked damn hard for that 'big name'. They have probably worked solidly to establish their lines over the years and to achieve that 'big name'.
> 
> As for the Flatcoat statement. I haven't heard that so can't comment really. But maybe there's a few breeds they like and have tried showing and establishing their own lines, only for it not to work. A lot of show kennels have bred more than one breed of dog over the years and still do. I don't necessarily take that as a negative. They are doing a grand job with their Poodles... How many other breeders do you know that have moved to that breed after years with another breed?... I know a few.
> 
> I'm not going tocomment about your accusation of them only loving Rickie because he is winning.


I never said they only love Ricky because he's winning, that really is putting words into my mouth! But I wonder how long they would persevere with poodles, or American cockers, if they weren't winning with those either? That's what I dislike about *some* aspects of showing, people are in it to win, and some will move dogs on at a great rate of knots that aren't being rewarded, and breed loads of litters in the hope that they will find that *one* that will get them lots of rosettes. Surely if you are passionate about your dogs you don't try one, see if you get anywhere with that breed and then switch breeds or give up because you're not getting anywhere, ie you are not winning.

Everyone works darned hard with their dogs to get to Crufts, I've not said they don't, but it's a shame there isn't a way every dog could be judged in an impartial way, what's wrong with wanting that? Ticket swapping does happen, and if you're not in with the crowd that swap tickets, it is much harder to get your dog placed at shows where they are judging. The first thing you do when you get a schedule is look at the judge to see if they would be someone you want to spend good money on showing your dog under!


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

You said you wished the owners would love him because he is a great dog. That does sound like it implies what I said. Sorry if I misread that.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> You said you wished the owners would love him because he is a great dog. That does sound like it implies what I said. Sorry if I misread that.


Badly worded by me as well, apols for any misunderstanding.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I didn't want the poodle to win, not because I feel the dog was an unworthy winner because it certainly was, I am just not a fan of poodles


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The first thing you do when you get a schedule is look at the judge to see if they would be someone you want to spend good money on showing your dog under!


Absolutely! Judges are human and they all interpret the breed standard in a slightly different way. AND they put their own weights on whether one fault is worse than another.

In my breed that might be the coat - some judges ignore the curly coats which really shouldn't be acceptable, and others make the exhibitors get out the straightening tongs the night before.

I'm too new to showing to know which judge is which, but I have come under a few who I wouldn't go under again, because they obviously don't like something about Bess, and one particular judge who I thought was extremely rude.

I don't deny that 'ticket swapping' goes on, but I don't think it's endemic across all dog shows and judges.

When I can I get someone to handle Bess for me - she gets better results NOT because she's a 'face', but because she has years of experience and handles Bess better. It was very interesting to note that she got someone else to handle her bitch for her at Crufts, and her bitch was placed BOB! Unfortunately not short listed in the group.

Handling, and getting the best out of the dog are skills which aren't learned overnight, and make more of a difference to the judge than the person at the end of the lead. It think it's too easy to blame the judge when it's down to poor handling.


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## LexiLou2 (Mar 15, 2011)

BessieDog said:


> Absolutely! Judges are human and they all interpret the breed standard in a slightly different way. AND they put their own weights on whether one fault is worse than another.
> 
> In my breed that might be the coat - some judges ignore the curly coats which really shouldn't be acceptable, and others make the exhibitors get out the straightening tongs the night before.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this.

I've had Asha at shows, where I have been warned the judge rewards the face (this was an open show so no tickets) and as a joke we guessed who he would place where, based on handlers, and we got it spot on....

I have also been under judges who simply don't like dog and reward labs with a different look.

And then there are the judges who have liked my dog, but my poor handling has caused issues.

So it does go on, and I have seen it go on, but then I also know that poor handling, and differing opinions matter.

On a seperate matter, I aren't a huge Romeo fan so the lab BOB wasn't my cup of tea, but I am really pleased witht he bitch CC and reserve CC, really nice looking labs, in my opinion.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Am i correct in thinking that the person who bred the dog cant judge the dog? but can the owner of the stud used judge the dog?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

MrRustyRead said:


> Am i correct in thinking that the person who bred the dog cant judge the dog? but can the owner of the stud used judge the dog?


Yes, but it would be considered bad form. That said, if I took Zasa under the stud dog owners to be judged, I doubt they'd recognise me, and wouldn't know she was by their dog unless they'd specifically looked it up from the entries.

I've seen a judge at an open show reward lots of dogs sired by her stud dogs, and also close relations to her lines.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Of course there was talk that he would win BIS, thats the only achievement he had'nt already taken, the only thing left for an absolutely exceptional dog to take. Michael and Jason have both worked damn hard to achieve all they has achieved, in and out of the ring for the dog world. Of course their both well known, but you cant take away from them that they have bred and shown an outstanding dog. Ricky doesnt need a pro handler, he shows himself to his best. His handler has bond with him that is clear to see, a happy dog in the ring is what everyone wants to see. Judging is not just based on the characteristics set out for each breed, every dog in that BIS line up was a worthy winner, some just showed better than others! There had to be a winner..


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Well, in SL's defence, of course there is favouritism when judging although I'm not sure about 'ticket swapping' - I don't show and it seems a rather premeditated act. I've seen who's at the end of the lead influence judging in trialling too, so it's not restricted to showing - certain dogs allowed longer to find a bird than others, and the face at the end of the lead can play a part. I don't think it's something that can be easily changed - it's human nature and happens in all walks of life and is something we have to accept happens. Besides, the dog still has to be a good one, and any competition where there is a subjective judgement is bound to be open to other influences.

Having said that, it is just a small, perhaps unintentional influence, rather than the only factor. The dog still has to be an excellent dog. While I'm not a poodle fan, the winning dog really did stand out and deserved the win regardless of who was at the end of the lead.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I doubt any judge would be silly enough to place a dog on face merit alone for BIS at crufts...- Wouldnt be worth the backlash.. You have to remember that all the dogs would have been gone over many times by many different judges before getting to the line up..

Its a small world really, and a dog will stand out for a reason, may be a good point or a bad one..But you never forget a dog you have judged. & I havent seen one judge yet comment that the wrong dog won...Says it all to me...Their the ones that have been hands on, we havent.. (Unless its been for a fuss)


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Sorry but we gave up showing at ringcraft as he wasn't enjoying it so I know b*gger all about showing 

Can I just ask if the cut of a coat really makes that bigger difference? Just a general question; I had no idea


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Flamingoes said:


> Sorry but we gave up showing at ringcraft as he wasn't enjoying it so I know b*gger all about showing
> 
> Can I just ask if the cut of a coat really makes that bigger difference? Just a general question; I had no idea


Every dog is groomed into a way that the handler feels shows the dogs strongest points, grooming has and can be used to cover faults to (if your clever enough) however they will soon be felt out when the judge goes over the dog!

Most cuts using the poodle for example were first there for a purpose, the poodles was first used while out at work.. But like most aspects of the show world, its moved on slightly.


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## Pezant (Jul 6, 2012)

Flamingoes said:


> Sorry but we gave up showing at ringcraft as he wasn't enjoying it so I know b*gger all about showing
> 
> Can I just ask if the cut of a coat really makes that bigger difference? Just a general question; I had no idea


Well, I'm not a judge, but there was a Dutch dog (a Sh Ch I believe) entered in the English Setters yesterday and benched opposite us. Lovely dog, but his ears were completely untrimmed and very long, like this:










Whereas most English dogs have shaved, close-cut ears like this:










He didn't place, and I know there were a few people who were somewhat surprised that he wasn't trimmed 'properly' - i.e., in the English style. I've also been told off at an open show before by a judge who placed Henry really highly, but lectured me after the classes for not trimming him thoroughly enough. She even complained to his breeder that we weren't doing it properly! We just laughed about it (and made ourselves learn more about grooming), but I guess that says a lot about how important the right trim can be.


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Every dog is groomed into a way that the handler feels shows the dogs strongest points, grooming has and can be used to cover faults to (if your clever enough) however they will soon be felt out when the judge goes over the dog!
> 
> Most cuts using the poodle for example were first there for a purpose, the poodles was first used while out at work.. But like most aspects of the show world, its moved on slightly.


Thank you 

The Pom cut doesn't seem to have changed that much to me, is that correct?

Sadly there is one that we occasionally meet on the beach that has been shaved to 'accentuate her ruff'


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Flamingoes said:


> Thank you
> 
> The Pom cut doesn't seem to have changed that much to me, is that correct?
> 
> Sadly there is one that we occasionally meet on the beach that has been shaved to 'accentuate her ruff'


The Pom is one of the breeds that only scissoring is used for a desired style, although they take alot of brushing, and a little trimming, I dont feel their coat is changed from how it would naturally grow. So as a rule they havent really changed, some exhibitors may 'over/under' scissor mind?


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> The Pom is one of the breeds that is only trimmed into a desired style, although they take alot of brushing, and a little trimming, I dont feel their coat is changed from how it would naturally grow. So as a rule they havent really changed, some exhibitors may 'over do' a trim mind?


I have to say, I've only ever had him with a little hygiene trim and though I brush him about 20 minutes a day (and stroke him constantly ) I've never done anything else to his coat.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Flamingoes said:


> I have to say, I've only ever had him with a little hygiene trim and though I brush him about 20 minutes a day (and stroke him constantly ) I've never done anything else to his coat.


Nothing wrong with that, aslong as hes comfy, clean and loved who cares!


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Nothing wrong with that, aslong as hes comfy, clean and loved who cares!


He's always all of them 

Someone actually said to me the other day 'HOW is he so clean with all that fur?!' and I just said, with a very straight face, oh I hoover him every day :yesnod:


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

I simply dislike the result due to the poor handling, nothing to do with its hair cut (although it does look a little silly).


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

dandogman said:


> I simply dislike the result due to the poor handling, nothing to do with its hair cut (although it does look a little silly).


Poor handling, are you having a laugh! Do you know anything about the movement and idea of judging a dog by movement..


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

my mother went all goo goo ga ga over Colin the pom yesterday. She's always wanted a pomeranian but we had got Mika instead because he was easier to manage, grooming wise. But i think its safe to say that if we ever get another dog, judging by my mother's reaction on seeing Colin on the screen, a Pomeranian will be our next dog lol! You all would have thought she was crazy seeing her reaction last night when we were watching the Best In Show.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Having just returned from 5 days away working at the big show I am closing this for a read through due to some speculation and reports of such ! I will read it when I have the time to do so please bear with me


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Ok have read through all of this thread, I am not going to 'prune' anything but I will remind people that there are posts on here that are a bit unnecessary. I can confirm that both the poodle and the American cocker live normal lives and have seen with my own eyes them running in muddy fields and enjoying life to the full. The American cocker lives in the house and is a much loved family dog, Ricky the poodle is a real showman and Jason and him have a real rapport. 

As for swapping of tickets that is quite a sweeping statement, the judge in question is a long standing judge who is very particular in the way he wants the dogs under him handled, it was unfortunate that the badly timed instruction was mis-construed but I have handled under him and he had me change the way I handled my dog. On the day he did award me two firsts the challenge certificate and best of breed with a 7 month old puppy. I haven't watched the clips back but sometimes a dog will 'merge' into the colour worn by the handler and give a false outline could of been he wanted her to stand to check the outline of the dog.


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

Fluffster said:


> Yes I was going to say, I didn't like the poodle but at least it wasn't deformed like that poor Pekingese or the Basset Hound


This may be true but it ignores the fact that it's a genetic car crash waiting to happen.

I don't really care about the poodles clip, the way it was shown or alleged 'ticket swapping' (I doubt the poodle does either). I do care about the fact that a dog that came about as a result of a half brother/sister mating and with a coefficient of inbreeding several times the breed average is being awarded the highest accolades.

It wouldn't matter so much if this dog was never going to sire a litter but he undoubtedly will - lots of them. This is in a breed in real genetic trouble. John Andersons work looking at hundreds of dogs shows that the more inbred a standard poodle is, the more likely it is to die younger (4 years younger) and more likely it is to die of nasty things like bloat. https://www.dogenes.com/poodle/lifespan.html

And that is why I personally think it's a disgrace that Ricky the poodle won crufts -the breed will suffer for it.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> This may be true but it ignores the fact that it's a genetic car crash waiting to happen.
> 
> I don't really care about the poodles clip, the way it was shown or alleged 'ticket swapping' (I doubt the poodle does either). I do care about the fact that* a dog that came about as a result of a half brother/sister mating and with a coefficient of inbreeding several times the breed average is being awarded the highest accolades*.
> 
> ...


Oh dear - didn't realise that - seems the breeding world has still not accepted that they need to change the way they do things.

Must admit I did sigh when the commentator said the peke was fit for function as it panted round the ring at a snail pace.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

lennythecloud said:


> This may be true but it ignores the fact that it's a genetic car crash waiting to happen.
> 
> I don't really care about the poodles clip, the way it was shown or alleged 'ticket swapping' (I doubt the poodle does either). I do care about the fact that a dog that came about as a result of a half brother/sister mating and with a coefficient of inbreeding several times the breed average is being awarded the highest accolades.
> 
> ...


I would be interested to hear a response from those on here that know the dog and the breeders.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

I can't really comment on his pedigree... I did have a look at his COI and it's 5x the breed average which is a shame


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## cbrookman (Jun 12, 2011)

Fluffster said:


> She is stunning. THAT is my kind of dog :thumbup1:


And mine too x2


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> I can't really comment on his pedigree... I did have a look at his COI and it's 5x the breed average which is a shame


just to bare in mind, the COI for a std poodle (3.1%) is much lower than many other breeds. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that when compared to others (other breeds, other specific dogs or past crufts winners) it isn't a Huge COI.
breed average for a yorkie is 8.9%... one very well thought of kennel has many dogs up in the 30s- 15% in many lines is a rare low it seems!

i can't see them doing a breeding like that without good reason, and it isn't like he is lacking in health tests...


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> breed average for a yorkie is 8.9%... one very well thought of kennel has many dogs up in the 30s- 15% in many lines is a rare low it seems!
> 
> just to bare in mind, the COI for a std poodle (3.1%) is much lower than many other breeds. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that when compared to others (other breeds, other specific dogs or past crufts winners) it isn't a Huge COI.
> i can't see them doing a breeding like that without good reason, and it isn't like he is lacking in health tests...


Yeah, I know what you mean. But when you look at the percentages for really close inbreeding, he's not far off that. Especially when all the other dogs in the lineup for BIS were well below their breed average.

As for health tests. It's great that he has some, but the breed club advises on testing for sebaceous adenitis, which he hasn't been tested for... It goes both ways really, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective 

I thought he was a great dog and a well deserved winner... So I'm not against what they have done, per se. Like I said, just a different perspective


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean. But when you look at the percentages for really close inbreeding, he's not far off that. Especially when all the other dogs in the lineup for BIS were well below their breed average.
> 
> As for health tests. It's great that he has some, but the breed club advises on testing for sebaceous adenitis, which he hasn't been tested for... It goes both ways really, I'm just looking at it from a different perspective
> 
> I thought he was a great dog and a well deserved winner... So I'm not against what they have done, per se. Like I said, just a different perspective


oh i know- totally get your point- could be better (and turns out my selected breeder does more tests and has lower scores across the board  ) but could be worse!
either way, he is stunning, seems to enjoy every minute of the ring... and i have now heard many times he gets to play in mud puddles where a poodle belongs! :thumbup1:


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

Was at best in show and thought poodle, although in a vey flamboyant cut, was flashy and quite wonderfu! 

Gundog group- thought the lab was actually not horrendously fat compared to what I've seen previously! Glad to see a black and tan cocker got best in breed too as they're not a 'popular' colour!


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> oh i know- totally get your point- could be better (and turns out my selected breeder does more tests and has lower scores across the board  ) but could be worse!
> either way, he is stunning, seems to enjoy every minute of the ring... and i have now heard many times he gets to play in mud puddles where a poodle belongs! :thumbup1:


You definitely can't take that away from him lol... He is a stunning boy and when the time comes for me to get a Standard, if he has a fraction of what Ricki has, personality and showman wise, I'll be a happy bunny


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

kodakkuki said:


> just to bare in mind, the COI for a std poodle (3.1%) is much lower than many other breeds. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that when compared to others (other breeds, other specific dogs or past crufts winners) it isn't a Huge COI.
> breed average for a yorkie is 8.9%... one very well thought of kennel has many dogs up in the 30s- 15% in many lines is a rare low it seems!


Very high COI's in a breed isn't something to dismiss because others are worse, it's definitely linked to disease and should be avoided. The situation with black standard poodle's is also complicated by a genetic bottleneck 20 generations ago meaning standard calculations of COI are often inaccurate.



kodakkuki said:


> i can't see them doing a breeding like that without good reason, and it isn't like he is lacking in health tests...


For some people 'getting a nice looking dog and winning shows' is a good enough reason. All the health tests in the world are not going to mitigate the risks of pairing recessive deleterious alleles or give any indication of the longevity of the dog.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Poor handling, are you having a laugh! Do you know anything about the movement and idea of judging a dog by movement..


Look at picture #2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26510539

I am not commenting on movement, I'm commenting on that rediculous lead position, look at the dogs eyes!!! Exactly the same in the group, noticed it then!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> * Very high COI's in a breed isn't something to dismiss because others are worse* , it's definitely linked to disease and should be avoided. The situation with black standard poodle's is also complicated by a genetic bottleneck 20 generations ago meaning standard calculations of COI are often inaccurate.
> 
> For some people 'getting a nice looking dog and winning shows' is a good enough reason. All the health tests in the world are not going to mitigate the risks of pairing recessive deleterious alleles or give any indication of the longevity of the dog.


no, that wasn't my real point. i didn't say 'it's fine because its worse in other breeds' just that it is worth remembering that a COI of 3.1% overall is a very good low score- double the average to 6.2% and it's still 1/3 short of YTs- numerically a far larger breed i'd say. all i was saying is that he isn't exactly the worst on paper that has won, and i don't know enough about their breeding program to comment on their reasoning for a close mating like that...

i can't say i know much about the breeding history in the breed, but why only a bottleneck in one colour? (strangely enough, it is my least favourite colour even without a reason for it! lol)


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

lennythecloud said:


> This may be true but it ignores the fact that it's a genetic car crash waiting to happen.
> 
> I don't really care about the poodles clip, the way it was shown or alleged 'ticket swapping' (I doubt the poodle does either). I do care about the fact that a dog that came about as a result of a half brother/sister mating and with a coefficient of inbreeding several times the breed average is being awarded the highest accolades.
> 
> ...


Well said - just repped you for this post.


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> no, that wasn't my real point. i didn't say 'it's fine because its worse in other breeds' just that it is worth remembering that a COI of 3.1% overall is a very good low score- double the average to 6.2% and it's still 1/3 short of YTs- numerically a far larger breed i'd say. all i was saying is that he isn't exactly the worst on paper that has won, and i don't know enough about their breeding program to comment on their reasoning for a close mating like that...
> 
> i can't say i know much about the breeding history in the breed, but why only a bottleneck in one colour? (strangely enough, it is my least favourite colour even without a reason for it! lol)


For some strange reason, of which I don't know, black is my least favourite colour in Standards too 

I love white


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Lauren5159 said:


> For some strange reason, of which I don't know, black is my least favourite colour in Standards too
> 
> I love white


i prefer mine more off-white, or apricot, or red, or silver, or parti!! (think i'm aiming for a red boy and apricot girl at some point!)
i think it's because they seem less, pointy? lol


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

As much as a Standard is one of my dream breeds, I don't think I would necessary want or dream of one of Ricki's offspring purely for the reasons that have come to light. 

He was a great dog on the night. He moved beautifully and has a great personality. But when I think of my future show bitch, health is still top of my priority list, regardless of the pedigree and always will be.

Vicmar is my kennel of choice at the minute


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

kodakkuki said:


> just to bare in mind, the COI for a std poodle (3.1%) is much lower than many other breeds. i'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that when compared to others (other breeds, other specific dogs or past crufts winners) it isn't a Huge COI.
> breed average for a yorkie is 8.9%... one very well thought of kennel has many dogs up in the 30s- 15% in many lines is a rare low it seems!
> 
> i can't see them doing a breeding like that without good reason, and it isn't like he is lacking in health tests...


Sorry to go off track but I've just been looking at the COI for my girls. They are both different than what the COI prediction for offspring their parents gives. Does anyone know why this would be?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

sharloid said:


> Sorry to go off track but I've just been looking at the COI for my girls. They are both different than what the COI prediction for offspring their parents gives. Does anyone know why this would be?


The KC doesn't have records going back all the way and lists any imports as 0%.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Just watching the BIS judging again... the Samoyed handler proves you don't need to hang the dog up by the lead (as the Poodle handler did) to make it move well. Much more natural show presence too imo...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dandogman said:


> Just watching the BIS judging again... the Samoyed handler proves you don't need to hang the dog up by the lead (as the Poodle handler did) to make it move well. Much more natural show presence too imo...


I imagine you know far better than the handler of one of the most successful show dogs around. Oddly, different breeds are expected to be handled in different ways and to move in different ways too.
Not that I have ever shown except in exemption/companion shows but I have watched and learned and accept that they are sure to know more than me.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

TBH I didn't like how the Poodle was handled, it's head strung up high and being pulled about but if that's how you get the best out of a dog  The terrier also it looked like its front feet barely touched the floor half the time ......... maybe it's the camera angle ?


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Blitz said:


> I imagine you know far better than the handler of one of the most successful show dogs around. Oddly, different breeds are expected to be handled in different ways and to move in different ways too.
> Not that I have ever shown except in exemption/companion shows but I have watched and learned and accept that they are sure to know more than me.


On this one you are quite right, it all adds to the deportment of the dog, that lead may look tight but that is just a contact with the dog, part of it is also showmanship on the handlers part. We handle many dogs spitz (both Klein and mittel), border collies, pulik, corgi (both cardigan and Pembroke), Russian black terrier, Great Danes, standard poodles, welsh terrier, welsh springer spaniels, Newfoundlands, GSD, golden retriever, flatcoated retriever, Siberian husky, labs, to name just a few. All are handled in a different way according to what the breed standard calls for and to get the very best out of that particular dog, border collies are to move with the head level with the back so they have to be moved and handled very differently to the Tibetan who moves with the head in a proud carriage. Hope this helps


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Border collie on the move


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Flatcoat on the move


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Immature standard poodle on the move


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Just three of the breeds handled by us that has a different head carriage and all the lead control is different for each and every one of them.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I also didn't like how the poodles head carriage was handled, it seemed as though it would be able to carry itself fine without its head looks ridiculous to the point you could see the white of its eyes and it looked as if its eyed were rolling to the back of its head.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

I would have thought, though, that it was preferable for the dog to move the way it naturally would? Instead of its head being pulled up artificially high? In a way, letting the dog's natural gait guide the handler and not the other way round. While it may show off the body better, it's not a true indication of how the dog naturally moves in a normal sense so how can it be a good example of the breed if you are controllling the way it moves to that extent?

But perhaps that's me projecting more what *I* would like showing to be about as opposed to what it actually is! I suspect that's the case! I did think a few of the dogs looked quite uncomfortable with the way their heads were being held, I can't remember the breed now but one in particular even made my OH comment on it, and he was completely disinterested in it


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fluffster said:


> I did think a few of the dogs looked quite uncomfortable with the way their heads were being held


 I agree, in some breeds it did look like they were strung up - however I think it was the Pom where I made a point of looking at the handler and the lead and not the dog - the lead seemed taut, but every few paces you could see the tension loosen slightly, which indicated (to me) the lead was just *held* up straight rather than actually pulling the dog's head up.

Rather like when you're riding you keep the reins just taut enough to feel a connection to the horse's mouth, without pulling or leaning on them, or having them too slack.

I find it interesting as I've recently started to go to Ringcraft - I don't have a dog to handle, but I like watching.

PS: *Tashi* - my BSD x BC, Merlin, naturally moves more like a BC with his head low and that clipped, almost scuttling gait. Rue the rescue Malinois is just like all Belgians, head held high and proud and floats along with a long stride (though she would never win any prizes in conformation!).


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I thought I saw a number of handlers jerking on those leads. And I too really didn't like the way the Poodle looked, as illustrated by the pic DanDogman has linked to.

One thing I recall about the Lab that got reserve last year was how lovely and loose the lead was. Yes, I appreciate that different breeds move differently, but a jerking of a lead is still a jerking of a lead.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Fluffster said:


> I would have thought, though, that it was preferable for the dog to move the way it naturally would? Instead of its head being pulled up artificially high? In a way, letting the dog's natural gait guide the handler and not the other way round. While it may show off the body better, it's not a true indication of how the dog naturally moves in a normal sense so how can it be a good example of the breed if you are controlling the way it moves to that extent?


This ^^^

If the dog was a good example of the breed then it should move 'properly' in its natural gait without the need for extreme lead control.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

the thing is showing dogs is a specialist art, in the same way that obedience and agility is. Dogs doing obedience heelwork are not moving in a 'natural' way but it takes great skill to produce what the judge is looking for.

I think that people that are criticising how dogs at Crufts are handled and how they move actually do not like showing. It is not supposed to be dogs wandering around and moving like your pet dog does, they are supposed to show themselves off in a way specific to the breed. Standard poodles are very elegant and extravagant movers and the contact with the lead will bring the head up and make sure that their natural movement is shown off at its best. 

That is how I see it anyway.

Tashi, could you tell me something. I see that the poodle in your picture has a fair bit of hair left on its back end and so did the miniature poodle in the group final at Crufts. Was your standard allowed more hair because he was young or could Ricky have had more and still been correct. I know being bald shows off the movement to its full advantage but I do prefer the way the miniature looked.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Blitz said:


> the thing is showing dogs is a specialist art, in the same way that obedience and agility is. Dogs doing obedience heelwork are not moving in a 'natural' way but it takes great skill to produce what the judge is looking for.
> 
> I think that people that are criticising how dogs at Crufts are handled and how they move actually do not like showing. It is not supposed to be dogs wandering around and moving like your pet dog does, they are supposed to show themselves off in a way specific to the breed. Standard poodles are very elegant and extravagant movers and the contact with the lead will bring the head up and make sure that their natural movement is shown off at its best.
> 
> ...


Well I would like the dogs feet to touch the floor properly  I have nothing against showing and have lots of friends who do.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Blitz said:


> the thing is showing dogs is a specialist art, in the same way that obedience and agility is. Dogs doing obedience heelwork are not moving in a 'natural' way but it takes great skill to produce what the judge is looking for.
> 
> *I think that people that are criticising how dogs at Crufts are handled and how they move actually do not like showing. * It is not supposed to be dogs wandering around and moving like your pet dog does, they are supposed to show themselves off in a way specific to the breed. Standard poodles are very elegant and extravagant movers and the contact with the lead will bring the head up and make sure that their natural movement is shown off at its best.
> 
> ...


That is utterly untrue. If I disliked showing then why on earth have I spent the last four days glued to the computer screen watching Crufts?

I have nothing against showing.

But the fact remains that many many people are all saying the same thing: that some of the handlers seemed to be jerking on the leads and that the Poodle Ricky did look as though his eyes were rolling back in his head and that his handler was keeping that lead really really tight and high. I don't call that aspect of it a 'specialist art'!


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

So what about the agility? 

I didn't like the way that Greg guy (and others) picked their dogs up, by their scruff and their back end and placed them at the start... Then Greg (can't really remember his name) never once praised his dog after it's run. All he seemed interested in, was his time. He's supposed to be one of the best in the world and his dog got nothing but, what seemed to be, rather rough handling. 

If we can criticise what happens in the show ring and the way dogs are handled, what about the other sports?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

By the way, not every poodle has elegant movement. I have owned 2 standards. One was very elegant and extravagant in her movement and the other (her daughter) was totally unpoodle like. She moved more like a lab. My 2 miniatures are totally different as well. Candy has lovely movement though not as good as my standard did but Toffee has not poodle characteristics in her movement at all apart from her back legs really do drive. She tends to go beside the carriage when we are out with the horses and all you can see from the back is her back legs driving straight out. It doesnt matter how fast we are trotting, she never breaks into a run, she just pushes her back legs out further and further.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Criticising poor handling does not mean you dislike showing, I dislike intensely the way some flatcoats and Labs are handled, they are meant to be run on a loose lead, and free standing, yet you still see people stringing them up and holding their head up, and stacking them. If winning means so much that the single placement of a paw is absolutely crucial, then either the judges can't recognise a good dog despite a foot being out of place, or the exhibitors really have lost the plot. 

I like showing my dogs, but more simply, I love my dogs no matter what. I dislike the way that human intervention alters our view towards our dogs, whether that's showing, or any other *competition*.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

Lauren5159 said:


> So what about the agility?
> 
> I didn't like the way that Greg guy (and others) picked their dogs up, by their scruff and their back end and placed them at the start... Then Greg (can't really remember his name) never once praised his dog after it's run. All he seemed interested in, was his time. He's supposed to be one of the best in the world and his dog got nothing but, what seemed to be, rather rough handling.
> 
> If we can criticise what happens in the show ring and the way dogs are handled, what about the other sports?


Greg Derrett is the chap you are talking about. And you weren't the only person who noticed the lack of praise...


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

Jazmine said:


> Greg Derrett is the chap you are talking about. And you weren't the only person who noticed the lack of praise...


That's the one! Thank you 

I'm glad I'm not the only one... It really got to me


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Lauren5159 said:


> That's the one! Thank you
> 
> I'm glad I'm not the only one... It really got to me


I noticed this too...

I do (very basic) agility with Nooka and if I didn't praise her then she'd just b**ger off and go and see the other dogs! Plus she'd then need some real coaxing to do more exercises!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

MerlinsMum said:


> I agree, in some breeds it did look like they were strung up - however I think it was the Pom where I made a point of looking at the handler and the lead and not the dog - the lead seemed taut, but every few paces you could see the tension loosen slightly, which indicated (to me) the lead was just *held* up straight rather than actually pulling the dog's head up.
> 
> Rather like when you're riding you keep the reins just taut enough to feel a connection to the horse's mouth, without pulling or leaning on them, or having them too slack.
> 
> ...


You are right about the contact, the lead will be taut to feel the connection but not tight enough to cause any damage, the poodle is on times looking at his handler which is causing the look of the whites of eyes on one of the photos at least. Ricky enjoys the show ring and is quite a character he almost bows to the judge before he is moved it is something he does often.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Blitz said:


> the thing is showing dogs is a specialist art, in the same way that obedience and agility is. Dogs doing obedience heelwork are not moving in a 'natural' way but it takes great skill to produce what the judge is looking for.
> 
> I think that people that are criticising how dogs at Crufts are handled and how they move actually do not like showing. It is not supposed to be dogs wandering around and moving like your pet dog does, they are supposed to show themselves off in a way specific to the breed. Standard poodles are very elegant and extravagant movers and the contact with the lead will bring the head up and make sure that their natural movement is shown off at its best.
> 
> ...


Because he was young, he is now in the same clip as Ricky will see if I have a photo of him now


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Taken at Crufts


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

On the move at Crufts


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## Lauren5159 (May 28, 2013)

tashi said:


> View attachment 134955
> 
> 
> On the move at Crufts


He is stunning!!! :001_wub:


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

tashi said:


> View attachment 134955
> 
> 
> On the move at Crufts


oh wow! that's quite a change in the boy!

tashi- you seem the perfect person to ask... when they say in the standard _ 'All traditional trims permissible in the show ring and the dogs *judged on equal merit* , as long as there is sufficient length to demonstrate colour and quality of coat. ' _
do they mean it? or is that cut what is most likely to get a dog placed? (i ask as a true lover of the miami type cut)


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

kodakkuki said:


> _ 'All traditional trims permissible in the show ring and the dogs *judged on equal merit* , as long as there is sufficient length to demonstrate colour and quality of coat. ' _


I'm no Poodle expert but just look back to the photo of the 1895 Poodle - the coat wasn't very long and wasn't brushed out... when the coat is unbrushed like that, it won't demonstrate the true colour, as the longer outside hairs will be lighter in colour as they can get faded by the sun, or just get lighter as they grow, which is normal for any long-haired animal, as it has the same amount of pigment as a short-coated one but spread along a longer hair,which makes it look paler.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I'm no Poodle expert but just look back to the photo of the 1895 Poodle - the coat wasn't very long and wasn't brushed out... when the coat is unbrushed like that, it won't demonstrate the true colour, as the longer outside hairs will be lighter in colour as they can get faded by the sun, or just get lighter as they grow, which is normal for any long-haired animal, as it has the same amount of pigment as a short-coated one but spread along a longer hair,which makes it look paler.


This happens with the bergies - the blacks are supposed to be jet black, but the sun turns their coat into a sort of reddish colour. When they are being judged, the judge always moves their maps and looks at the roots, which are always black.

It also happens with the black border collies, to a lesser degree - their black coats can go a reddish colour in the sun (and border collies are outside in the sun a lot!) and by the time Driffield and Darlington come round I'm often joking about my "tri-colour" bitch  However, once the judge gets thier hands on and looks underneath the coat, they see the true colour and the dog is judged on that.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

With regard to 'stringing up' dogs on the move, I'd love to move Bess on a loose lead, but her head would be down on the floor sniffing all those smells and the judge would not be able to see her movement properly. The lead's held over her head to remind her to keep her head up, not to force it up. She would object if I was actually supporting her with it.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Well there must be some kind of mass optical hallucination at work then  Because so many people that I spoke to and also so many people across social media are all saying the same thing about feeling uncomfortable at how *some* of the dogs were handled. 

And to reiterate: I have no issue with showing and love to see happy, healthy dogs strutting their stuff!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

kodakkuki said:


> oh wow! that's quite a change in the boy!
> 
> tashi- you seem the perfect person to ask... when they say in the standard _ 'All traditional trims permissible in the show ring and the dogs *judged on equal merit* , as long as there is sufficient length to demonstrate colour and quality of coat. ' _
> do they mean it? or is that cut what is most likely to get a dog placed? (i ask as a true lover of the miami type cut)


If you have a truly stunning example of the breed then yes I would hope they would be judged equally . But the trend is followed to keep up with the elegance and more faults can be hidden under a profuse coat. There are many shown in the European cut but mainly veterans and I think that look is simply stunning !


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sarah H said:


> I noticed this too...
> 
> I do (very basic) agility with Nooka and if I didn't praise her then she'd just b**ger off and go and see the other dogs! Plus she'd then need some real coaxing to do more exercises!


On that premise you probably have to assume that a happy excited dog that is totally focused on its handler is getting all the praise and attention it needs.
It is a competition, of course he is interested in the time!

There is a huge difference between bad handling and handling that does not fit the pet owners' ideas but still produces happy dogs which have great success in their discipline.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Well there must be some kind of mass optical hallucination at work then  Because so many people that I spoke to and also so many people across social media are all saying the same thing about feeling uncomfortable at how *some* of the dogs were handled.
> 
> And to reiterate: I have no issue with showing and love to see happy, healthy dogs strutting their stuff!


As I have said not many dogs are 'strung' I won't say not all but there is a contact kept with the lead for maximum control with the minimum of fuss, an exuberant dog on a long lead would take far too long to 'reel' in and settle in the short time the handler has to keep the correct pace. Believe you me some of these dogs revel in the limelight and would quite happily make a fool of the handler by 'taking' off if they could. My daughter handles a sibe and he can be a paragon of virtue outside the ring but as soon as his feet hit the green carpet he sprouts wings ! Not an easy dog to handle because of his exuberance but as long as you have a slight contact with him he will eventually land on the runway!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

tashi said:


> As I have said not many dogs are 'strung' I won't say not all but there is a contact kept with the lead for maximum control with the minimum of fuss, an *exuberant dog on a long lead* would take far too long to 'reel' in and settle in the short time the handler has to keep the correct pace. Believe you me some of these dogs revel in the limelight and would quite happily make a fool of the handler by 'taking' off if they could. My daughter handles a sibe and he can be a paragon of virtue outside the ring but as soon as his feet hit the green carpet he sprouts wings ! Not an easy dog to handle because of his exuberance but as long as you have a slight contact with him he will eventually land on the runway!


I'm not saying they should be on a long lead, just that the lead should not be so high and tight as they seemed to be, to many of us watching.

I'm not aware that anyone here on PF supports the 'tugging' or 'jerking' of a dog's lead, yet I saw it happen several times while viewing Crufts.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

I thought some were shown nicely but others did look like they were being strung up, which then makes them strut out as they can't move in any other way at that pace. I can see why you would do it if your dog is a poor mover and to the crowd it looks flashy, but to me it doesn't show the dogs natural gait. A high stepping action is all very flashy but not very economical which is what dogs are designed to be, it's not my cup of tea anyway. 
Just don't get me started on the fluffy slug aka the pekinese, it looked like it was going to pass out and couldn't move any faster even if it wanted to, no wonder he preferred to carry it - just horrid!! That and that awful King charles that looked like it had been hit with a baseball bat, you couldn't even see its nose from sideways on, and we were waiting for the chi's heads to go pop, I've seen lambs with hydrocephaly less severe than those hideous things!!!


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

tashi said:


> If you have a truly stunning example of the breed then yes I would hope they would be judged equally . But the trend is followed to keep up with the elegance and more faults can be hidden under a profuse coat. There are many shown in the European cut but mainly veterans and I think that look is simply stunning !


awesome!
i might end up with the full 'show cut' if/when we get to crufts!  but of course mine will be the best in the ring anyway! :thumbup:

as for the tension on the lead, i've never actually shown, but at a show there was a lovely man who let me take his girl for a walk- and any time i let the lead slack the look she gave me! lol 
ever been given a condecending look form a yorkie? it was hilarious!


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