# Personal Protection Dogs



## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Came across the following website who have some great dogs: www.mrazovack9.com

Expensive dogs but appear to be trained extremely well. Can you own such a dog in the UK?


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## crazybones (Jan 1, 2009)

well i cant see why not but the DOGO you cant its against the law over here


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Expensive dogs ...


They look less than half the price I'd expect to pay for such a dog. That makes me wonder why.

In the UK protection dogs are shutzhund-trained. In the US and Europe they have other disciplines like French Ring.

Personally I'd rather train myself if it was that important to me. I defintitely wouldn't buy unless I knew and approved all the training methods used.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

A schutzhund trained dog is not a protection dog


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

when our home got broken into when we were at home, and we didn't own dogs... we seriously considered buying one, we even went down to see him in cardiff where there is specialist k9 protection training camps.. but decided that the price they wanted well over 3k just wasn't worth it for what the dog was trained to do. something that if you took the time and effort with your dog you could train yourself.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Isn't cropping of the ears banned?


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Also, dobermans are naturally protective so I guess they only need to be taught the commands ect.?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Cropping ears is banned in the UK but there is nothing to stop you having an import. Training a PP dog is not something you should do yourself, you need expert guidance to even buy a suitable puppy to train.


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Cropping ears is banned in the UK but there is nothing to stop you having an import. Training a PP dog is not something you should do yourself, you need expert guidance to even buy a suitable puppy to train.


agreed.
we have a ex police dog trainer that operates in my area that sometimes takes on dogs to train as guard dogs ect.


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## JimJamz (Mar 15, 2008)

There's a PPD on Pups, Puppies for sale, dogs for sale, pets for sale and wanted adverts UK a Doberman with cropped ears £6500. Crazy money.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

hawksport said:


> A schutzhund trained dog is not a protection dog


True but most protection dogs in the UK are shutzhund trained.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> Also, dobermans are naturally protective so I guess they only need to be taught the commands ect.?


Not all are. Just had to add this, my neighbors used to have a doberman and they were broken into 3 times and not once did the dog stop the burglars. :scared: :lol:

Protection Dogs - Personal and Executive Protection Dogs For Sale by CPI
Another site that sells them.

I love french ring, schutzhund and advanced obedience. I want the chance to do it but I would want to start from scratch from my own dog not buy a dog already trained, I feel you gain a stronger bond and a better dog when the dog is trained by yourself.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Also, dobermans are naturally protective so I guess they only need to be taught the commands ect.?


Most UK dobe lines will not instinctively protect.


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## Sarahnorris (Dec 1, 2008)

i guess its sorta down to breeding ect too?
eg, guide dog x guide dog = potential good puppies to be used as guide dogs?
i have a rottie, and oh he sure as hell ain't no guard dog!!


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

SpringerHusky said:


> Not all are. Just had to add this, my neighbors used to have a doberman and they were broken into 3 times and not once did the dog stop the burglars. :scared: :lol:
> 
> Protection Dogs - Personal and Executive Protection Dogs For Sale by CPI
> Another site that sells them.
> ...


The site I posted has a training course so you can learn. They have accommodation too.


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## ButterflyBlue (Mar 29, 2010)

hawksport said:


> Cropping ears is banned in the UK but there is nothing to stop you having an import. Training a PP dog is not something you should do yourself, you need expert guidance to even buy a suitable puppy to train.


no idea that cropped ears were banned over here! but why?


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

http://www.preloved.co.uk/fuseaction-adverts.showadvert/index-1032496572/bcbed380.html

Lovely looking dog. I bet you could get him for a 1,000, due to the economic state and quick sale needed.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

My OH used to work for dragonk9 which do the same thing  DragonK9 - dog training centre for explosives, narcotics, drugs and search dogs


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Preloved | european imported dobermann for sale in Brough, East Riding Of Yorkshire, UK
> 
> Lovely looking dog. I bet you could get him for a 1,000, due to the economic state and quick sale needed.


He is a gorgeous looking dog, even with the ears


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

ButterflyBlue said:


> no idea that cropped ears were banned over here! but why?


The best way to explain why would be to cut off half of your ears, stitch all around them and then tape them up for six months and then ask how you enjoyed the experience


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

sequeena said:


> My OH used to work for dragonk9 which do the same thing  DragonK9 - dog training centre for explosives, narcotics, drugs and search dogs


He'd know an old friend of mine then


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

To be honest, cropped ears is no different than cosmetic surgery on humans lol. I think it also makes pontential attackers think twice.


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> I think it also makes pontential attackers think twice.


what makes you think that?

i think a potential attacker would be more scared of the big white teeth attached to their arm, compared to arrect ears!

I have always wanted to compete in Schutzhund, maybe one day i will get my own workingline import GSD.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> To be honest, cropped ears is no different than cosmetic surgery on humans lol. I think it also makes pontential attackers think twice.


You are absolutely correct. Who is going to decide what cosmetic surgery you should be forced to have.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> You are absolutely correct. Who is going to decide what cosmetic surgery you should be forced to have.


Your avatar is a doberman with cropped ears...


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

GSDlover4ever said:


> what makes you think that?
> 
> i think a potential attacker would be more scared of the big white teeth attached to their arm, compared to arrect ears!
> 
> I have always wanted to compete in Schutzhund, maybe one day i will get my own workingline import GSD.


For the same reason they were cropped in the first place, they look more alert.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

The Telegraph suggested recently that it didn't matter what kind of dog you've got, having a dog at all will cut down on the risk of you getting burgled.

So, Iunno, if someone went to break into my house I don't think they'd bother, Flo goes mental and leaps the entire height of the window and barks her head off. They arn't to know that if they did break in she would be all over them wanting a fuss and letting them steal anything.

I love the idea of a proper protection dog, but like the others I think if it was something I'd be serious about, I'd prefer to have a part in training so that I can watch the dog's character develop and have a say in it. It would make me feel more connected to the dog.
xx


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Stephny691 said:


> The Telegraph suggested recently that it didn't matter what kind of dog you've got, having a dog at all will cut down on the risk of you getting burgled.
> 
> So, Iunno, if someone went to break into my house I don't think they'd bother, Flo goes mental and leaps the entire height of the window and barks her head off. They arn't to know that if they did break in she would be all over them wanting a fuss and letting them steal anything.
> 
> ...


I'm the same. Rupert has quite a deep bark, I wouldn't imagine that it would belong to a retriever at all, but if anyone saw a golden retriever I doubt they would be as put off, the sound may put them off more..!


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## ButterflyBlue (Mar 29, 2010)

hawksport said:


> The best way to explain why would be to cut off half of your ears, stitch all around them and then tape them up for six months and then ask how you enjoyed the experience


the thing is, i've seen a lot of people walking about with dogs on the streets who have had their ears cropped... this is why i didnt realise it was illegal! so how do these people manage to get it done? same as i see a lot of people walking about with pitbulls even though they're illegal in the uk.. god knows how they get them though


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

ButterflyBlue said:


> the thing is, i've seen a lot of people walking about with dogs on the streets who have had their ears cropped... this is why i didnt realise it was illegal! so how do these people manage to get it done? same as i see a lot of people walking about with pitbulls even though they're illegal in the uk.. god knows how they get them though


They do it themselves, often with scissors.

It's been illegal in the UK for about 100 years.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Your avatar is a doberman with cropped ears...


She's a rescue even imported dogs sometimes end up there and just because I like the look doesn't mean I like how it is achieved. How can cutting off half of a puppys ears be the same as somebody CHOOSING to have cosmetic surgey of their own free will?


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## ButterflyBlue (Mar 29, 2010)

Nonnie said:


> They do it themselves, often with scissors.
> 
> It's been illegal in the UK for about 100 years.


 how sad, must be painful for the dog. is it legal in other countries then?


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

ButterflyBlue said:


> how sad, must be painful for the dog. is it legal in other countries then?


Yes. In some european ones, and in the US.

No idea about others.

If done legally, i think its done by a vet under anaesthetic. Im not 100% sure about that though.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

I think any dog barking behind the door would be a deterent for any burglar, the problem could be if the dog actually bites the intruder.

A few years ago my husband met someone through work that was going through a very stressfull court case, he had a dobe bitch not agressive but protective of the home she was left one day in the kitchen she never barked when she heard someone come to the house but would be protective when they came inside until he gestured it was ok and then she was fine.This day someone broke in through the kitchen window he was coming in backwards she never made a sound or a move intil his foot touched the floor then she bit his calf quite badly, and would not let him move evrytime he did she bared her teeth and snapped, the owner returned to find the intruder held in his kitchen, called the police. 

The upshot was the intruder said he wanted the dog p.t.s, and the good old british justice system said that because he hadnt actualy pinched anything it couldnt be proved that thats what his intentions was, o.m.g what do they think he was climbing in through someones window for, the owner at the point of telling my husband he was still fighting to keep his dog alive at the cost of thousands and he said he would sell his house if need be no way was he going to have his dobe dead for this moron who if he hadnt a dog would have maybe cleared him out and that his dog was only doing her job and that was to protect what was hers. I never actually knew the outcome it was in the local papers at the time the case was running but i never saw a verdict.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ButterflyBlue said:


> how sad, must be painful for the dog. is it legal in other countries then?


it is legal in some other countries. I cant say I have ever seen a dog with cropped ears in this country. Are you sure you are not just seeing dog breeds with naturally erect ears rather than dobes and similar with cropped ears.


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## ButterflyBlue (Mar 29, 2010)

Blitz said:


> it is legal in some other countries. I cant say I have ever seen a dog with cropped ears in this country. Are you sure you are not just seeing dog breeds with naturally erect ears rather than dobes and similar with cropped ears.


well the area i live in, in london is a bit rough.. and i see pitbulls and young people walking them all the time.. i know cropped ears when i see them lol.. just because i saw them so frequently, i had no idea they were illegal.. i mean i don't know about any laws or anything but if the police saw that, surely they would stop this person?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

The police have never asked me about cropped ears


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Hundreds of hours go into training a protection dog, or a sports dog that bites, some pictures of our crossbreed doing manwork, he is a sport dog not a protection dog.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> She's a rescue even imported dogs sometimes end up there and just because I like the look doesn't mean I like how it is achieved. How can cutting off half of a puppys ears be the same as somebody CHOOSING to have cosmetic surgey of their own free will?


Well I like the look to, I never said it was right or wrong. And as an owner of a dog, don't you make the choices for it - just as a parent does a child?

Cropping it allows it to function like a natural dog ear, able to perk-up, position toward sounds, and lay flat.


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## slbrown2108 (Sep 15, 2009)

why is the dogo argentino banned in the uk is it because its on the dangerous dogs list, they look pretty harmless but i guess most dogs do


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## ButterflyBlue (Mar 29, 2010)

slbrown2108 said:


> why is the dogo argentino banned in the uk is it because its on the dangerous dogs list, they look pretty harmless but i guess most dogs do


i dunno why they are.. but i like the look of them, if they were legal here i'd definitely have one. i think dogs aren't dangerous in general, but only because of the owner. any dog can be dangerous i guess, it just matters who is handling the dog.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Johnderondon said:


> True but most protection dogs in the UK are shutzhund trained.


I dont understand what you mean, do you mean that most protection dogs are titled in shutzhund, or that they are trained by people who compete in shutzhund


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## luvmydogs (Dec 30, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> And as an owner of a dog, don't you make the choices for it - just as a parent does a child?


So you're saying its ok for a parent to force a child to have cosmetic surgery?


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Cropping it allows it to function like a natural dog ear, able to perk-up, position toward sounds, and lay flat.


What's wrong with its natural ear position surely it only needs to function to allow the dog to hear, which it obviously does just fine.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> So you're saying its ok for a parent to force a child to have cosmetic surgery?


Why do you assume? Anyway, spaying is just as painful and that's acceptable....


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

luvmydogs said:


> So you're saying its ok for a parent to force a child to have cosmetic surgery?


Why do you assume? Anyway, spaying is just as painful and that's acceptable....


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

I have a question.... is it OK to separate two sisters ? Because someone on here told me it's hard work with related dogs as they can form a pack against you......


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I like the idea but they have to be trained or at least trained by you with help from a pro trainer. It's not an easy thing to do to ensure you have the control over the dog. What I liked about those sites or at least one I can't remember which, they made a point of emphasising that the amount of socialisation their dogs have means they're safe anywhere with anyone or anything and are only aggressive on command.

I would never crop a dogs ears it's pointless mutilation only for looks.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> I have a question.... is it OK to separate two sisters that are one? Because someone on here told me it's hard work with related dogs as they can form a pack against you......


The problem with owning/working siblings is they are very much into each other, so work would need to be done with each one away from the other. Separating 2 dogs who have been together since birth, the success of that will depend on how independent they are from each other


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Jenny Olley said:


> I dont understand what you mean, do you mean that most protection dogs are titled in shutzhund, or that they are trained by people who compete in shutzhund


Both.

But primarily the former.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Well I like the look to, I never said it was right or wrong. And as an owner of a dog, don't you make the choices for it - just as a parent does a child?
> 
> Cropping it allows it to function like a natural dog ear, able to perk-up, position toward sounds, and lay flat.


Yes I make choices for my dogs but choosing to cut off a dogs ears is hardly the same as choosing which pair of socks a child is going to wear for the day. The only time a cropped dog is going to look more agressive than a natural eared dog is when there is no threat, just when you don't need it. Do you really think that when a trained PP dog is barking in your face you will be looking at its ears?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Why do you assume? Anyway, spaying is just as painful and that's acceptable....


I don't think Luvnydogs assumed anything. I think he/she just voiced what was implicit in your analogy with parental responsibility.

Spaying is not cosmetic.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> I like the idea but they have to be trained or at least trained by you with help from a pro trainer. It's not an easy thing to do to ensure you have the control over the dog. What I liked about those sites or at least one I can't remember which, they made a point of emphasising that the amount of socialisation their dogs have means they're safe anywhere with anyone or anything and are only aggressive on command.
> 
> I would never crop a dogs ears it's pointless mutilation only for looks.


These dogs are trained not to accept food from anyone but its handler. And yes, they will be aggressive on command, but there's 3 different levels in personal protection.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> These dogs are trained not to accept food from anyone but its handler. And yes, they will be aggressive on command, but there's 3 different levels in personal protection.


What breed of dog are you looking for Jason ? are you looking for a dog that is already trained in obedience & protection or looking to undertake the work yourself ?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> These dogs are trained not to accept food from anyone but its handler.


It would concern me how that had been achieved, too.

I can't think of any positive way to achieve food avoidance.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> I don't think Luvnydogs assumed anything. I think he/she just voiced what was implicit in your analogy with parental responsibility.
> 
> Spaying is not cosmetic.


I know that, but my point was that the owner makes the choice....perhaps the dog doesn't want it done? Anyway, lets make a new thread about cropping ears if we wish to discuss this further


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe to only take food on command but I don't really know.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> It would concern me how that had been achieved, too.
> 
> I can't think of any positive way to achieve food avoidance.


I'll email them and ask. They sell alot of dogs though....


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> What breed of dog are you looking for Jason ? are you looking for a dog that is already trained in obedience & protection or looking to undertake the work yourself ?


Dobermann or rottweiler. I posted a link to a european imported doberman that is for sale... I am interested in this. But there's two rottweiler sisters that I've been looking at too. I'm looking for a good jogging companion, but also a dog that will protect - which as far as I'm aware both breeds are suitable.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Teaching food refusal is a nasty buisness.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Teaching food refusal is a nasty buisness.


But what if a potential attacker tried to give something harmful?


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Have you looked at the dogs available on the protectionk9 forum, depends what you want really. I've met some lazy Rotts and some that aren't, don't know how much they will go on jogging.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> But what if a potential attacker tried to give something harmful?


Buy a gun it's much safer, more reliable and you wont give a good breed a bad name


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> Have you looked at the dogs available on the protectionk9 forum, depends what you want really. I've met some lazy Rotts and some that aren't, don't know how much they will go on jogging.


Link? ...........


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Buy a gun it's much safer, more reliable and you wont give a good breed a bad name


People get killed with guns. Also, I fail to see how a trained dog gives the breed a bad name. They are suitable for families, just trained to protect.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> Link? ...........


Don't know how to do links but this is the website address 
Protection K9 UK - Login I'm sure you've already looked in to it all, but dogs from working/sporting lines can be full of drive so it will need to be trained to a high standard.


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

My Rottie would make a great 'protection' dog (NOT) !!!

Last week I managed to lock myself out the house  I asked my neighbour to climb through the open window for me forgetting that Zeus was in there and had never met this neighbour. I was worried he might be a little defensive but instead ...

Zeus watched him climb through the window, licked him when he got through then rolled onto his back for a tummy tickle! If was an actual intruder he would no doubt be pointing the way to the valubles as well.

Don't assume that getting a Rottie means they will protect and guard.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thats clever it comes up as a link.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Jenny Olley said:


> Thats clever it comes up as a link.


I can't register.... says I use the wrong form when I clearly don't lol


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

My mastiff is the perfect protection dog. You come into my house uninvited and she will make her displeasure known BUT I don't have her as a protection dog. She is my pet and I protect her, not the other way around.

If someone were to rob me I would rather lose a few valuables than have my girl hurt or taken away and killed because she bit someone (we all know the law can be funny).


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Cat_Crazy said:


> My Rottie would make a great 'protection' dog (NOT) !!!
> 
> Last week I managed to lock myself out the house  I asked my neighbour to climb through the open window for me forgetting that Zeus was in there and had never met this neighbour. I was worried he might be a little defensive but instead ...
> 
> ...


That's nice lol.

The most important thing for me is jogging companion .... I think dobermans would be better as they're more lightweight.










They are the two rotties.

And this is the doberman:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> People get killed with guns. Also, I fail to see how a trained dog gives the breed a bad name. They are suitable for families, just trained to protect.


No people get killed by people with guns a gun on its own has never killed anyone like dogs have. They are suitable for families that know what they are dealing with and how to control it in every situation. Do you know the difference between a PP dog and a schutzhund dog


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> No people get killed by people with guns a gun on its own has never killed anyone like dogs have. They are suitable for families that know what they are dealing with and how to control it in every situation. Do you know the difference between a PP dog and a schutzhund dog


For the price, I'm sure the average family doesn't get one. And you can't compare dogs to guns, more people get killed by guns than dogs.

Not forgetting, on the site it says:

All dogs guaranteed to:Obey - your whispered commands off-leash.Protect - relentlessly and unmatched until given his "release" command.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Do you realy believe an animal can be guaranteed to obey commands in every situation. As I've allready said a gun on it's own doesn't kill anyone it can't make it's own decisions like a dog can.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Do you realy believe an animal can be guaranteed to obey commands in every situation


Majority, yes.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Well if you would like to bring any dog to me I could put it into a situation it has never been in before and disobey your commands.


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## tripod (Feb 14, 2010)

Jason2 not wanting to be insulting here but if you (or they, for that matter) actually knew about behaviour and its controlling systems you would not be able to guarantee anything


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

That may be true, but if you have a dog pp level 1 trained then it will do what you command i.e bark, show teeth, and if attacked, attack back. Do you think people would pay such prices if the training didn't work?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> That may be true, but if you have a dog pp level 1 trained then it will do what you command i.e bark, show teeth, and if attacked, attack back. Do you think people would pay such prices if the training didn't work?


That's the easy part do you think you can guarantee it wont attack when it shouldn't. Do you think you have enough experience to handle a dog that has been trained how to bite. Do you realise how stressfull it is owning a dog like this


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## gsbmartin (Apr 6, 2010)

Awesome discussion! The majority of both sport dogs (SchH) and PPT/PSD (Police Service Dog) dogs that I know (well, I know their handlers), while "on the job" out in the training or competition field, or on patrol with an officer, are not to be messed with. 

These same dogs, however, at home with their families are typical family pets.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Yes but they are at home with very experienced owners.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Given the amount of dogs that are pts because they've been reported as aggressive I wouldn't want to train my dog to do any of this stuff even if they did 100% release on command...which I dont think any dog however well trained is capable of. 
Why can dogs not just be dogs any more...pets...famiy pets..why is there such a need to have a dog who does it all....looks perfect behaves perfect and does exactly when it is told and when or woooh the world will end.
My dog can be so funny at times with her mischevious ways and there's times when she's ran trough the house dragging a shoe almost as big as her behind....but tha's all part and parcell of having a pet....the funny parts....wouldn't life be boring if all our pets where the same....
The whole dog made to fit thing is deff not for me, the most important part of having dogs for me is giving them a loving happy home....sod the tricks sod the 100% perfect behavior at all times just give me my pooches 
Clare xx


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> That may be true, but if you have a dog pp level 1 trained then it will do what you command i.e bark, show teeth, and if attacked, attack back. Do you think people would pay such prices if the training didn't work?


If this is what people want why not get one of those robot dogs from argos....xx


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Clare7435 said:


> If this is what people want why not get one of those robot dogs from argos....xx


I had one of them, bloody annoying yappy thing!! :lol:


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

sequeena said:


> I had one of them, bloody annoying yappy thing!! :lol:


Oh but did you see the fury one in argos on display....200 quid it was but it did eveything...i stood and played with it for ages at christmas...the electronic plastic ones are annoying though....that would seriously end up as a bath toy if my kids had it lol:lol::lol::lol:


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> And you can't compare dogs to guns,
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

Clare7435 said:


> Given the amount of dogs that are pts because they've been reported as aggressive I wouldn't want to train my dog to do any of this stuff even if they did 100% release on command...which I dont think any dog however well trained is capable of.
> Why can dogs not just be dogs any more...pets...famiy pets..why is there such a need to have a dog who does it all....looks perfect behaves perfect and does exactly when it is told and when or woooh the world will end.
> My dog can be so funny at times with her mischevious ways and there's times when she's ran trough the house dragging a shoe almost as big as her behind....but tha's all part and parcell of having a pet....the funny parts....wouldn't life be boring if all our pets where the same....
> The whole dog made to fit thing is deff not for me, the most important part of having dogs for me is giving them a loving happy home....sod the tricks sod the 100% perfect behavior at all times just give me my pooches
> Clare xx


All of our dogs are trained in bite work, they are not aggressive, they are strong and confident, thier self esteem is high in part because of the bitework they do. They are also our pets, but we choose to compete with them, and believe they have a better life for it, they are just being dogs they have the opportunity to use all their natural abilities in the tracking and nosework. We compete in the kennel club sport of working trials, dogs love the work.


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

If someone wants a dog trained or to train in this type of work then I don't see the problem, allthough I'm not sure about joe public getting a dog for protection even if if it is trained to a high standard of command only because it wasn't that long ago that I was watching one of those police programmes from the states and one of the videos was of a gsd being released to chase a suspect, the dog cornered him then went for his leg. No problems there except for the fact that no matter how many or how loudly the commands were, the dog refused to let go and dragged him a fair distance along the floor. So if the police have hiccups now and again with their highly trained dogs then I'm not sure if joe public wants to be putting themselves of being in the same situation.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Does anyone know the legalities of owning such a dog?

As far as im aware its illegal for anyone to use their dog as a weapon, in defense or not.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Does anyone know the legalities of owning such a dog?
> 
> As far as im aware its illegal for anyone to use their dog as a weapon, in defense or not.


I can't really see a court giving one of these dogs a second chance


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> Most UK dobe lines will not instinctively protect.


That is a ridiculous statement. My byb puppy at 8 months of age sat by my side while I was passed out in an alleyway and barked his head off until a nice couple phoned an ambulance for me. He stepped aside when the paramedics got there and once I was on the stretcher, he climbed onto my lap and rode with me to the hospital. Do you think I trained my dog to do that? NO. Not exactly, that is.

I trained my dog to detect blood sugar fluctuation and impending seizures, but not to protect me from harm otherwise. I raised my boy to be a social and friendly creature. He was there for me when I needed it most because of the love, care and devotion I had with him.

A dobermann raised with love and a strong, yet fair hand will be a loving and loyal companion through his/her life. Most dobes need no "training" as they can read their owners quite well. If you are afraid, your dobe will notice, if you are tense or showing dislike towards someone, your dobe will notice, but only if you raise them properly. Positive training methods, no forced activity (no jogging until at least 24 months of age...) and lots of consistency in the methods you use are required to live happily with a Dobermann.



Jason2 said:


> Dobermann or rottweiler. I posted a link to a european imported doberman that is for sale... I am interested in this. But there's two rottweiler sisters that I've been looking at too. I'm looking for a good jogging companion, but also a dog that will protect - which as far as I'm aware both breeds are suitable.


If this is your mentality (not just the post above, but the majority of your posts in this thread), you cannot handle a Dobermann in the appropriate manner, that is for sure. You think this "personal protection" and "pre-trained" crap is good business practice, it is NOT!. The Dobermann is a VERY unhealthy breed and I do not even want to KNOW what sort of rubbish is behind those dog's pedigrees! You'll have the most vicious dog on the block all right, but he'll be dead before he's 5 from DCM, CVI or CAH. Know what those are?

You cannot bust through headstrong into this breed, they are DELICATE creatures who need experienced homes and a fair hand. Putting one of these dogs into the hands of a novice dog owner (anyone who hasn't lived with or worked with high energy breeds before) is almost a death sentance for that dog.



hawksport said:


> Teaching food refusal is a nasty buisness.


I've had 17 stitches that will back this up, from a dog that was sold as a Personal Protection dog from a company just the like this one in question.



hawksport said:


> Buy a gun it's much safer, more reliable and you wont give a good breed a bad name


Exactly <3 The Dobermann is a beautiful breed, but they are not for everyone. You have to be something special to manage a Dobie.



Jason2 said:


> People get killed with guns. Also, I fail to see how a trained dog gives the breed a bad name. They are suitable for families, just trained to protect.


Wrong, People kill people, guns just cause the wounds. Dogs are killed all the time because of people's idiocy and instant gratification/selfishness.



hawksport said:


> That's the easy part do you think you can guarantee it wont attack when it shouldn't. Do you think you have enough experience to handle a dog that has been trained how to bite. Do you realise how stressfull it is owning a dog like this


Just go on any REPUTABLE american Dobe, Rott, or Pitbull forum and you'll see PP dogs that were trained PROPERLY who have gotten into the wrong hands and killed small children or even just crushed someone's arm from grabbing hold.

Schutzhund is a sport, its not really work, dogs are not expected to be able to perform off the field. Schutzhund trains dogs to work on a field, targeting specific objects and equipments. Equipment that the average "attacker" is unlikely to have on him. Personal Protection is the art of training a dog off the sleeve and into real life.

Dogs are never 100% and I absolutely loathe people who think they are reliable as the sun. Trust is one of the most dangerous things you could EVER give your dog.

People like these pre-trained places are the ones at fault for putting fuel on the fire about our beloved breed. The dobermann is a wonderful breed, but in the wrong hands (which it often times is) the breed as a whole suffers immensely.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I think you will find that even police dogs are being trained to knock people down without biteing now


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Were you just asking the question Jason, or do you want to own a PP dog ?
just wondering, being nosy lol
xx


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

casandra said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. My byb puppy at 8 months of age sat by my side while I was passed out in an alleyway and barked his head off until a nice couple phoned an ambulance for me. He stepped aside when the paramedics got there and once I was on the stretcher, he climbed onto my lap and rode with me to the hospital. Do you think I trained my dog to do that? NO. Not exactly, that is.
> 
> I trained my dog to detect blood sugar fluctuation and impending seizures, but not to protect me from harm otherwise. I raised my boy to be a social and friendly creature. He was there for me when I needed it most because of the love, care and devotion I had with him.
> 
> ...


Fantastic post, so very true. Rep Given.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

casandra said:


> That is a ridiculous statement. My byb puppy at 8 months of age sat by my side while I was passed out in an alleyway and barked his head off until a nice couple phoned an ambulance for me. He stepped aside when the paramedics got there and once I was on the stretcher, he climbed onto my lap and rode with me to the hospital. Do you think I trained my dog to do that? NO. Not exactly, that is.


If so, your anecdote doesn't show it because (a) you haven't detailed a protective response and (b) if it was BYB bred then you don't have reliable information on its heritage.

The fact is that conformational breeding, without regard for working abilities, has reduced the protective instinct in most UK lines to a pale shadow of their european and american counterparts.

You go on to write, in response to a post by Jason2,



> If this is your mentality (*not just the post above*, but the majority of your posts in this thread)


my emphasis

Have you confused me and Jason2?


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

hawksport said:


> I think you will find that even police dogs are being trained to knock people down without biteing now


Is that regional or countrywide?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

As far as I know it was the whole of the UK. Something to do with human rights and certain religious beliefs


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

For the DDA to apply to a situation an individual just has to say they were "fearful of being bitten" they don't even actually have to be bitten.

I totally understand working dogs being trained by police, armed forces etc to protect but if this is the way ordinary Joe Bloggs on the street is going i despair.

Protect yourself rather than signing a death warrant for a loving loyal animal, this just smacks of exploitation to me and will do nothing to improve the publics or the Governments perception of certain breeds.

I find this thread totally depressing


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

> As far as I know it was the whole of the UK. Something to do with human rights and certain religious beliefs


Lol. Of course!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree Rainybow, I wouldn't want my precious dogs put in danger for my sake.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Johnderondon said:


> If so, your anecdote doesn't show it because (a) you haven't detailed a protective response and (b) if it was BYB bred then you don't have reliable information on its heritage.
> 
> The fact is that conformational breeding, without regard for working abilities, has reduced the protective instinct in most UK lines to a pale shadow of their european and american counterparts.
> 
> ...



I have not confused the two of you. Jason belives a Dobermann would be a good candidate for his home, but with the way he thinks about training and lack of effort put into training a dog, the Dobermann would definitely not suit him at all.

You on the other hand stated that most Dobes in the UK would not protect their owners in the line of fire so to speak. How many Dobers have you worked with, may I ask?


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Following a recent court case where a dog was used to take down a youth who was then stabbed this statement was made by the detective involved

"The message I'd like to reinforce is that if a dog is used as a weapon, you will be caught, you will be prosecuted, and you will be convicted." 


He added: "At the present time, the dogs remain with the police. We will be applying for a destruction order in relation to the dog belonging to Chrisdian Johnson."


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Following a recent court case where a dog was used to take down a youth who was then stabbed this statement was made by the detective involved
> 
> "The message I'd like to reinforce is that if a dog is used as a weapon, you will be caught, you will be prosecuted, and you will be convicted."
> 
> He added: "At the present time, the dogs remain with the police. We will be applying for a destruction order in relation to the dog belonging to Chrisdian Johnson."


Poor dogs, but anyone like this obviously feral & dangerous man could buy a fully trained PP dog & misuse it. That's pretty worrying for both any innocent bystander the owner takes a dislike to & decides to set the dog on & also for the dog itself as it is just doing what it feels is it's job


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> Poor dogs, but anyone like this obviously feral & dangerous man could buy a fully trained PP dog & misuse it. That's pretty worrying for both any innocent bystander the owner takes a dislike to & decides to set the dog on & also for the dog itself as it is just doing what it feels is it's job


Exactly and if this becomes the next "must have" what do you think the Governments response will be 

If people continue to see dogs as a form of protection/weapon then it could be the beginning of the end for life as all dogs now know it because blanket bans are sooo much easier to police


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Exactly and if this becomes the next "must have" what do you think the Governments response will be
> 
> If people continue to see dogs as a form of protection/weapon then it could be the beginning of the end for life as all dogs now know it because blanket bans are sooo much easier to police


surely these companies dont sell to joe public. I thought they only sold the dogs to security companies and individuals who had that kind of background?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Putting aside sport dogs, the type of person who feels they need a PP dog are usually going to be the ones who are least able physicaly and mentaly to manage a dog trained in this way.


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

HI chick, from what i can gather you can buy them, also there are some companies who advertise on k9 pup or something like that its called hun.
I personally wouldnt buy one, i like people coming up and stroking the boys realising they arnt all bad lads etc 
xx


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## GSDlover4ever (Feb 21, 2009)

sequeena said:


> My mastiff is the perfect protection dog. You come into my house uninvited and she will make her displeasure known BUT I don't have her as a protection dog. She is my pet and I protect her, not the other way around.
> 
> If someone were to rob me I would rather lose a few valuables than have my girl hurt or taken away and killed because she bit someone (we all know the law can be funny).


I totally agree :thumbup:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> surely these companies dont sell to joe public. I thought they only sold the dogs to security companies and individuals who had that kind of background?


The OP doesn't state that he is from that kind of background



hawksport said:


> Putting aside sport dogs, the type of person who feels they need a PP dog are usually going to be the ones who are least able physicaly and mentaly to manage a dog trained in this way.


If they are that paranoid I don't think they should own any type of dog TBH


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> surely these companies dont sell to joe public. I thought they only sold the dogs to security companies and individuals who had that kind of background?


Given the amount of money we are talking about i would have thought if you have the cash you can get one even if these particular companies don't supply to the public.

Where there is serious money to be made i doubt very much if SOME of the people who supply these dogs give a toss about the dog, the person that buys it or the safety of the general public.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

id love to have a fully trained protection dog, was always wishing for one when i stayed in the East End of Glasgow lol!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

sketch said:


> HI chick, from what i can gather you can buy them, also there are some companies who advertise on k9 pup or something like that its called hun.
> I personally wouldnt buy one, i like people coming up and stroking the boys realising they arnt all bad lads etc
> xx


:thumbup: I love people being able to approach the girls & cuddle them, had a little old lady come over & ask OH if she could give them some fuss as she missed owning one


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> Given the amount of money we are talking about i would have thought if you have the cash you can get one even if these particular companies don't supply to the public.
> 
> Where there is serious money to be made i doubt very much if SOME of the people who supply these dogs give a toss about the dog, the person that buys it or the safety of the general public.


Sadly money talks & it talks far too loud:frown2:


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> :thumbup: I love people being able to approach the girls & cuddle them, had a little old lady come over & ask OH if she could give them some fuss as she missed owning one


Yeh for sure hun, in the petshop the other day, they all stroked the boys, who sat there enjoying every minute, even the lady who said Jeez he is massive stroked them. I try to do my bit for the breed so not everyone is terrified.....Makes me feel proud that they love people. Can be approached and stroked.
xx


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

sketch said:


> Yeh for sure hun, in the petshop the other day, they all stroked the boys, who sat there enjoying every minute, even the lady who said Jeez he is massive stroked them. I try to do my bit for the breed so not everyone is terrified.....Makes me feel proud that they love people. Can be approached and stroked.
> xx


same here we were over the park with Akira Yday and a little boys dog came running over and he started screaming lol (his dog was a peke). He thought Akira was going to hurt the dog, I told him 'its ok come over' so he did and he was crouching on the floor stroking Akira. I was sooo proud. He left with a great big smile on his face :thumbup:


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Casandra, how on earth did you teach your boy to know when sugar levels are low?!
Absolutely amazed and interested 

I can see the point in -properly- trained PP dogs, but I still don't think they can be trusted 100%, 100% of the time, no matter how they've been trained or by who. 
A dog will enter a situation it hasn't been trained for, that no one could forsee and it will react how it sees fit, whether that is in line with it's training or not. 

I love Rotties and Dobes, but I know that they require sensitive training, by people that know the breed and really know how to handle them. I don't think I'm the kind of person that would ever be suitable for owning one of them unfortunatly, because I adore Dobes, really do. 

It's so sad that these breeds are seen as 'status' dogs, a few chavs can ruin the reputation of entire breeds, and I don't see how PP (in the way they're being advertised on the one website with the lvls of protection) is going to change the perception of these breeds.

It'll just take a couple of mistakes by one of these "properly" trained PP dogs, and that'll be another few wonderful breeds banned because of human stupidity.
jmo

xx


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Wow, some posts are incredibly judgemental, making many assumptions. If I have said I wish to own a pp dog, then your comments may be justified, so if you can show me where I have said this, if not, why do you post all sorts of assumptions and, make judgements about my motives?

One said I shouldn't own a doberman if I want a jogging companion - this is a false statement as an experienced doberman owner told me they are fantastic for this. Protection is not important to me, someone much greater looks after me, but rather a loving pet.

Oh I forgot to mention, it was adolph Hitler that nearly destroyed the doberman breed.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason, didn't you say you wanted a jogging companion first, but that personal protection was also a factor?
Confused 
x


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Putting aside all this debating about PP dogs etc. 
Jason in my eyes (and shoot me if im wrong) you would like a powerful status dog which is trained to bite. Throughout the posts you say you like the look of cropped ears as the dog looks more dangerous....If you just want it to scare off intruders surely you'd be more interested in its bark etc. as mentioned an intruder wouldnt have a dobe hanging off his arm and think "wow im crapping myself even more now because this dog has pointy ears" Some how i dont think so  Also you say you want to go jogging with it? Is this a parade of your flash guard dog? Maybe im worng this is just how im percieving things. Why does it really matter so much if you have a PP dog. There are plenty of other people in the world who manage other sucessful burgular prevention methods, such as a burgurlar alarm  without having to put an animal into the equation. As said, if the dog were to bite and the "victim" were to press charges your dog would most likely be put down. However with a gun or the like you could easily scare someone off without actually using it. Why bring a defenseless dog into it when it is just being told what to do then to suffer a horrible fate all because of a person who wanted a tool to scare away criminals. 

We have kennels, we have no PP dogs of the sort. Labs, cockers, springers and a terrier is what we have, yet if someone where to attempt to break it, these dogs would all start barking and no doubt in my mind would it put a criminal off. The dog doesn't have to look fearsome to be fearsome. 
Why not just get an average high energy dog you can go jogging with, and i bet you will find it will bark at anyone who tries to get in, and most likely scare them away. 
To me you sound a complete novice and a PP would not be suited for you.

Reading that back it hardly makes sense but i cba to edit it all. :lol:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Stephny691 said:


> Casandra, how on earth did you teach your boy to know when sugar levels are low?!
> Absolutely amazed and interested
> 
> I can see the point in -properly- trained PP dogs, but I still don't think they can be trusted 100%, 100% of the time, no matter how they've been trained or by who.
> ...


Going off topic now but there was a program on the tv not long ago about a young boy of about 8 0r 9. he suffered from diabeties and had to be watched 24hrs a day to the extent that his parents had to take it in turns to sleep so one of them was allways awake incase he went into a coma. He now has a GSD that goes everywhere with him and alerts him to blood sugar levels before symptoms show. Apart from having a dog with him 24hrs a day he can now lead a normal life.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Dobermann or rottweiler. I posted a link to a european imported doberman that is for sale... I am interested in this. But there's two rottweiler sisters that I've been looking at too. I'm looking for a good jogging companion, but also a dog that will protect - which as far as I'm aware both breeds are suitable.


It does say here you are looking for a dog that will protect :confused1:


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> Jason, didn't you say you wanted a jogging companion first, but that personal protection was also a factor?
> Confused
> x


Along those lines yes, however I didn't refer to a pp dog, but a breed that is naturally a good guard/watch dog.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> Along those lines yes, however I didn't refer to a pp dog, but a breed that is naturally a good guard/watch dog.


Terriers.
Or if you just want something to put off people breaking in, my housemates miniature poodle has a growl/bark/howl that would put off the most determined burgler. 
BCs are big enough to put off most intruders, plus you get the high energy, they'd love to go jogging with you, they'd run their legs off given half the chance, or mine would =]
x


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Wow, some posts are incredibly judgemental, making many assumptions. If I have said I wish to own a pp dog, then your comments may be justified, so if you can show me where I have said this, if not, why do you post all sorts of assumptions and, make judgements about my motives?
> 
> One said I shouldn't own a doberman if I want a jogging companion - this is a false statement as an experienced doberman owner told me they are fantastic for this. Protection is not important to me, someone much greater looks after me, but rather a loving pet.
> 
> Oh I forgot to mention, it was adolph Hitler that nearly destroyed the doberman breed.


You did state you wanted a jogging companion AND protection dog Jason, so naturally people who own this type of dog because they love the breeds (not for their 'value' as a protection dog) are going to be concerned as we are in a precarious position with so much anti certain breed feelings by a vociferous minority. If you don't want to be judged don't make inflammatory comments about cropping ears being on the same level as spaying


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> Terriers.
> Or if you just want something to put off people breaking in, my housemates miniature poodle has a growl/bark/howl that would put off the most determined burgler.
> BCs are big enough to put off most intruders, plus you get the high energy, they'd love to go jogging with you, they'd run their legs off given half the chance, or mine would =]
> x


I prefer larger breeds.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Stephny691 said:


> Terriers.
> Or if you just want something to put off people breaking in, my housemates miniature poodle has a growl/bark/howl that would put off the most determined burgler.
> BCs are big enough to put off most intruders, plus you get the high energy, they'd love to go jogging with you, they'd run their legs off given half the chance, or mine would =]
> x


My Cocker is pretty protective of the house amd won't let anyone in he doesn't know, he will run forever too :thumbup: PLUS you get the element of suprise because he looks so cute :lol:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

there are plenty of lage breeds that will happily go jogging, labradors, golden retrievers, all the retrievers in fact, or a young, larger rescued crossbreed. They can be protective of their owners too, should the need arise


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Why are people trying to putt me off a rottweiler or doberman?

People seemed to have this post too: http://www.petforums.co.uk/1481665-post71.html


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Wow, some posts are incredibly judgemental, making many assumptions. If I have said I wish to own a pp dog, then your comments may be justified, so if you can show me where I have said this, if not, why do you post all sorts of assumptions and, make judgements about my motives?


I'm looking for a good jogging companion, *but also a dog that will protect *- which as far as I'm aware both breeds are suitable.

^^ is what you said the other day. When you state something like the bit in bold, we take it at face value, and seeing as you posted a thread on Personal Protection Dogs and stated you want a dog who WILL protect, I imagine it is very easy for people to assume you want one not actually judgemental at all 

Re the doberman rottie issue, I know some dobes who are not gotten from a pup can be difficult, guy near me has a youngish one, about 3-4 years old, he was used as a security dog and so the guy can't even get insurance for him. That dog and its owner are also one of the reasons my boy doesn't go offlead, because he would get eaten alive if we met that dobe. Many dobes are lovely, but beware you may have to be very careful if you get one with the insurance issues and if there are any underlying issues there, any dog can have problems, but I see more dobes with problems than I do labs etc, so you need to know what you are taking on if its a dog who has been 'specially' trained.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> I prefer larger breeds.


How big a breed are you talking? Cause with some of the really big breeds you couldn't go jogging with them for about a year+ after you got a puppy (if you went for a puppy) anyway.
x


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> I prefer larger breeds.


Depends what your looking for really, any larger breed in particular your looking at
xx


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Why are people trying to putt me off a rottweiler or doberman?
> 
> People seemed to have this post too: http://www.petforums.co.uk/1481665-post71.html


Because you stated you want it for protection and that smacks of someone who wants a status dog and not a companion who has the breeds best interests at heart. Just telling you how it reads :001_cool:


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Tinsley said:


> I'm looking for a good jogging companion, *but also a dog that will protect *- which as far as I'm aware both breeds are suitable.
> 
> ^^ is what you said the other day. When you state something like the bit in bold, we take it at face value, and seeing as you posted a thread on Personal Protection Dogs and stated you want a dog who WILL protect, I imagine it is very easy for people to assume you want one not actually judgemental at all


But if you're unsure, isn't it best to ask me to elaborate? Anyway, I hope know what I mean now.... lets quit our quarrelling.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

nobody wants to put you off but if you've never owned a larger guarding breed it's best to do a lot of research before taking one on & not think of them in terms of a protector but as your friend & companion. They are the best dogs in the world, in knowledgeable hands. In the worng hands they can be a liability


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Anyone getting a dog for protection is getting a dog for the wrong reasons IMO.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> But if you're unsure, isn't it best to ask me to elaborate? Anyway, I hope know what I mean now.... lets quit our quarrelling.


I'm not quarelling 

If people had to ask for definite if we meant this etc we would be hear all day, all you need to do is set the record straight when people get the wrong idea :thumbup:

Re the jogging companion, if you do look more into the rotties see if the owners know anything about how their/their parents hips are as that may affect the jogging you could do with them


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Because you stated you want it for protection and that smacks of someone who wants a status dog and not a companion who has the breeds best interests at heart. Just telling you how it reads :001_cool:


Do you know my heart? If I wanted a 'status' dog as you say, don't you think I'd go to any breeder? Rather, I am looking for well-bred. Europeand dobermans are far more likely to have that protect instinct.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Same as the others really. I've never owned one, but when someone mentions 'for protection' it just reads wrongly, cause you can't tell inflection or tone over the net =]

I'm a bit wary of people getting rotties (esp) for protection, cause my uncle (who I didn't like) got one for his business. And the poor dog wasn't allowed to be socialised, or made a fuss of because uncle wanted him to bark and go mad if people broke in. 

Now uncle isn't there anymore, this poor dog has no choice but to sleep in his kennel and spend all day in the paddock. My cousin can sort-of make a fuss of him, but being used for 'protection' has ruined that dog, he's a beautiful rottie too. 
x


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Why are people trying to putt me off a rottweiler or doberman?
> 
> People seemed to have this post too: http://www.petforums.co.uk/1481665-post71.html


Perhaps the reason is because you asked such a basic question as this only a few weeks ago.

Can dogs bite new owners out of fear?

Even my 4yr old Knows if it has a mouth it can bite for many different reasons.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Do you know my heart? If I wanted a 'status' dog as you say, don't you think I'd go to any breeder? Rather, I am looking for well-bred. Europeand dobermans are far more likely to have that protect instinct.


again you say 'protect', why is this so important?


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

You people have me completely wrong. My dog would go everywhere with me, meeting many people. Then resting in the evening watching tv lol


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> You people have me completely wrong. My dog would go everywhere with me, meeting many people. Then resting in the evening watching tv lol


Then fair enough, we all know things can get misconstrued over the net, we're all dog/animals lovers, or we wouldn't be here talking about them as often as we are.
I can't wait to take my dog everywhere with me, might have to smuggle him into uni so I don't have to leave him at home =]
x


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Perhaps the reason is because you asked such a basic question as this only a few weeks ago.
> 
> Can dogs bite new owners out of fear?
> 
> Even my 4yr old Knows if it has a mouth it can bite for many different reasons.


That's a stupid question looking back, but remember the saying: "He who asks remains a fool for 5 minutes, but he who doesn't remains a fool for a lifetime."

I have to say, it's no wonder some young people rebel, all people ever do is pick up on their faults. I'm proud of my mistakes, because each one has made me stronger. 'Best to try and fail greatly......


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

simplysardonic said:


> nobody wants to put you off but if you've never owned a larger guarding breed it's best to do a lot of research before taking one on & not think of them in terms of a protector but as your friend & companion. They are the best dogs in the world, in knowledgeable hands. In the worng hands they can be a liability


Good post and it's not just breeds. An individual dog can be a liability or a well adjusted dog depending on who owns it. Mine was placed with me because the breeders knew I had experience in working large guarding breeds and he was the one out of the litter that had the potential to be a problem.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm not trying to pick up on your faults. You have been told that certain breeds are not for first time owners and with good reason. If you make a mistake on here the worst that is going to happen is people will have a good laugh at your expense, make a mistake with a dobe or a rottie and the consequences are much bigger. Take a look on the rescue sites and see how many 10 month old male dobes, rotties, shepherds ect there are. Take it from me that most new dogs that come to training are males around 10 months old with first time owners who have way to much dog for themselves.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> I'm not trying to pick up on your faults. You have been told that certain breeds are not for first time owners and with good reason. If you make a mistake on here the worst that is going to happen is people will have a good laugh at your expense, make a mistake with a dobe or a rottie and the consequences are much bigger. Take a look on the rescue sites and see how many 10 month old male dobes, rotties, shepherds ect there are. Take it from me that most new dogs that come to training are males around 10 months old with first time owners who have way to much dog for themselves.


I can understand this, but what am I supposed to do? Get a smaller dog that will live 15 years or so? I could be dead by then lol. I've never understood this approach; different breeds suit different people.


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## Jenny Olley (Nov 2, 2007)

hawksport said:


> I'm not trying to pick up on your faults. You have been told that certain breeds are not for first time owners and with good reason. If you make a mistake on here the worst that is going to happen is people will have a good laugh at your expense, make a mistake with a dobe or a rottie and the consequences are much bigger. Take a look on the rescue sites and see how many 10 month old male dobes, rotties, shepherds ect there are. Take it from me that most new dogs that come to training are males around 10 months old with first time owners who have way to much dog for themselves.


I agree with the too much dog bit, especially when the dogs come from working lines, they can be difficult to handle, and can become pushy, its not just first time dog owner we also get the "I've owned this breed all my life and never had one like this before". There can be problems when taking an older dog, guarding breeds need careful socialisation as youngsters, this will not prevent them doing their job, but they will understand not everything is a threat.


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## sketch (Sep 19, 2009)

Jason no one wants you to make a mistake thats all. when you are told that this certain dog isnt for a first time owner or whatever, its for your bebefit, not to be unkind.
Can i tell yu a story...
I have had dogs before, my mum also had dogs when i was growing up, anyway nearly two years ago i did my research into getting a GSD, decided i wanted a working line, check the parents blah blah blah all test, hip scores. I did great yeah.
I brought my pup home, the first 24 hours he bit me, tried to savage the cat, i took him to work with me, we did puppy training class, socialised him, everything by the book so to speak.
At 5 months old he was the most horrible little git you would ever come across, he mouth and he meant it, he was ingnorant, pushed his luck, ignored what he was told.
I was told by a trainer he was a rescue wating to happen because he took the p**s.
anyway to cut a long story short, i had his pedigree looked at and basically was told get him in check, work him really stimulate him, be firm but fair etc, or give him to someone who knows what they are doing.
I got him toy trained, as treats had no effect, found out what made him tick, and the hard work payed off, I have a super well behaved most of the time obedient GSD, he has always been my world, my best pal ever.
But this is why they say abut novice handlers, basically i am as stubborn as he is, i know what i have to do with him etc to keep him on the straight and narrow so to speak.
I did my research but i didnt know how the different bloodlines effect the dog, my other GSD is also working lines but anyone could handle him easily.
With hindsight, i wouldnt have got one with his bloodline, ad I know an awful lot more now, and more by luck than judgement and some very good advice i have turned him around, but the story could of been very different.
But without my pig headedness and the brilliant advice he would of been off the rails etc.
Just be careful whatever you decide, and dont btake the advice personally, everyone means well
Hope yo hede my tail, as it could of been really bad..
xx


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> I can understand this, but what am I supposed to do? Get a smaller dog that will live 15 years or so? I could be dead by then lol. I've never understood this approach; different breeds suit different people.


so basically you should read the thread "hypothetically how do you get your hands on a pit bull" lots of tips in there on how to get a dangerous dog seen as your not interested in the slightest thing said.

You want a large breed for protection not because you like large breeds. If you like large breeds youd be looking at leonbergers, danes and so on. You want a dog that looks aggressive walking down the street.

If your not ready to commit to 15 years then you shouldnt be thinking about getting a dog. Training is a daily activity and one that even well trained dogs get wrong - you put aggression into a dog and your going to have a nightmare on you hands for the general public. Training agression into them is a step that is both silly and unnecessary. 1/ as you will be endagering peoples lives 2/ youll end up with a dog that may end being rehomed due to you not having an idea 3/ the dog will more than likely be put down as no-one can sort it out 4/ if reported for having an out of control dog you could face a ban or criminal record (you will be reported as training to this level means training from mistakes). People are not prepared to put up with this and is understandable why.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Good posts Sketch & James, I'm all out of rep though


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> I can understand this, but what am I supposed to do? Get a smaller dog that will live 15 years or so? I could be dead by then lol. I've never understood this approach; different breeds suit different people.


Probably best to get a dog suited to a novice owner.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> I can understand this, but what am I supposed to do? Get a smaller dog that will live 15 years or so? I could be dead by then lol. I've never understood this approach; different breeds suit different people.


In all fairness you could get a puppy tomorrow, and be dead the day after. Just because large breeds have typically lower life spans doesn't mean that they will drop dead at 8 and you'll be free again (so to speak).

Different breeds do suit different people, but do the people suit the breeds?
x


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

james1 said:


> so basically you should read the thread "hypothetically how do you get your hands on a pit bull" lots of tips in there on how to get a dangerous dog seen as your not interested in the slightest thing said.
> 
> You want a large breed for protection not because you like large breeds. If you like large breeds youd be looking at leonbergers, danes and so on. You want a dog that looks aggressive walking down the street.
> 
> If your not ready to commit to 15 years then you shouldnt be thinking about getting a dog. Training is a daily activity and one that even well trained dogs get wrong - you put aggression into a dog and your going to have a nightmare on you hands for the general public. Training agression into them is a step that is both silly and unnecessary. 1/ as you will be endagering peoples lives 2/ youll end up with a dog that may end being rehomed due to you not having an idea 3/ the dog will more than likely be put down as no-one can sort it out 4/ if reported for having an out of control dog you could face a ban or criminal record (you will be reported as training to this level means training from mistakes). People are not prepared to put up with this and is understandable why.


I like large breeds and the look of dobermans and rottweilers - what's wrong with that? Again, you assume and say I want an aggressive looking dog - I want a jogging companion and friend - why the hell should I be looking at a great dane? I don't want a Dane. Grrrrr

Go back and refresh your memory to my original post.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> I like large breeds and the look of dobermans and rottweilers - what's wrong with that? Again, you assume and say I want an aggressive looking dog - I want a jogging companion and friend - why the hell should I be looking at a great dane? I don't want a Dane. Grrrrr
> 
> Go back and refresh your memory to my original post.


I dont assume anything your constantly posting about agressive breeds - if i remember rightly you were talking about trying to get hold of a dogo argentino a few months ago! Try not to think people dont have more than 3 brain cells on here.

Grr all you like ... youll find out your immaturity to the situation your trying to get yourself into will come back and more than likely bite you


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> Probably best to get a dog suited to a novice owner.


I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to people who tell me to start with a smaller dog - as if were playing some game and must get to a certain level before I can get a certain dog.

I ask questions, but all you ever do is throw it back in my face. I could go get a dog today, but am I not trying to find the best dog for me? 1,600 is alot of money, you know...


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> 1,600 is alot of money, you know...


lol, youll spend that in your first year on food, treats, toys, and leads.

wheres the money for training again>?

(dont forget insurance now)


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

james1 said:


> I dont assume anything your constantly posting about agressive breeds - if i remember rightly you were talking about trying to get hold of a dogo argentino a few months ago! Try not to think people dont have more than 3 brain cells on here.
> 
> Grr all you like ... youll find out your immaturity to the situation your trying to get yourself into will come back and more than likely bite you


A dogo agentino? Why do you keep assuming? I'd never even heard of those until a few days ago. Immaturity? OK, your opinion of me is of little value. You really should think before you post.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to people who tell me to start with a smaller dog - as if were playing some game and must get to a certain level before I can get a certain dog.
> 
> I ask questions, but all you ever do is throw it back in my face. I could go get a dog today, but am I not trying to find the best dog for me? 1,600 is alot of money, you know...


Yes it is a lot of money, doesn't mean it's well spent or that it's going to buy you anything but a lot of trouble.
People arn't suggesting ONLY buying a small dog. They're suggesting a dog more suited to a novice owner. Now if you take that to only mean little dogs- you won't find many people suggesting getting a naughty Terrier as a first dog, cause they can be a pain in the ass.

And yes, sorry, but it can be down to being a certain level before getting a certain dog, I'd love a Doberman, and I've owned and trained naughty, wayward, headstrong, stubborn dogs- but I know I'm not capable of owning or training a Dobe correctly and I'm not arrogant enough to assume I could be yet.
And again sorry, but from what I've read, you're NOT trying to find a dog best for you. You've decided on the type/types of dog you want and you're going to get one, without -any- thought of whether you're best for the dog.

That's what people get annoyed at, and appear to throw it all back at you. 
x


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

james1 said:


> lol, youll spend that in your first year on food, treats, toys, and leads.
> 
> wheres the money for training again>?
> 
> (dont forget insurance now)


I was referring to the cost of the dog itself. It's easy to get one much cheaper but I took the advice to find a well bred dog. I have money, so don't you worry about that. As for training, how many dog owners do that? And fyi, a family member of mine is a dog trainer. Finally, insurance is not compulsory.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> Yes it is a lot of money, doesn't mean it's well spent or that it's going to buy you anything but a lot of trouble.
> People arn't suggesting ONLY buying a small dog. They're suggesting a dog more suited to a novice owner. Now if you take that to only mean little dogs- you won't find many people suggesting getting a naughty Terrier as a first dog, cause they can be a pain in the ass.
> 
> And yes, sorry, but it can be down to being a certain level before getting a certain dog, I'd love a Doberman, and I've owned and trained naughty, wayward, headstrong, stubborn dogs- but I know I'm not capable of owning or training a Dobe correctly and I'm not arrogant enough to assume I could be yet.
> ...


All I can say is we live in wicked and sinful world, nothings ever going to be perfect. Do you know for a fact I haven't researched on the best breed for me? Do you think I haven't gone to see such dogs. All I can do is tell the truth, whether you believe me or not is entirely up to you.


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## cutekiaro1 (Dec 15, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> I was referring to the cost of the dog itself. It's easy to get one much cheaper but I took the advice to find a well bred dog. I have money, so don't you worry about that. As for training, how many dog owners do that? And fyi, a family member of mine is a dog trainer. Finally, insurance is not compulsory.


just becuase a dog is expensive and has a fancy pedigree doesnt mean its s good dog, you could go to a rehoming centre and get a very loyal good dog


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

Hello,

Sorry what does 'fyi' mean?


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

TobyK9 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Sorry what does 'fyi' mean?


for your information that's what it means


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

cutekiaro1 said:


> just becuase a dog is expensive and has a fancy pedigree doesnt mean its s good dog, you could go to a rehoming centre and get a very loyal good dog


i agree to that


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## TobyK9 (Feb 5, 2010)

Edit; I get it now  thank you (red faced moment)


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> All I can say is we live in wicked and sinful world, nothings ever going to be perfect. Do you know for a fact I haven't researched on the best breed for me? Do you think I haven't gone to see such dogs. All I can do is tell the truth, whether you believe me or not is entirely up to you.


Insurance isn't compulsory but it's a bloody brilliant thing, the peace of mind is priceless, but that's jmo.

All you've talked about is how you 'like the look of dobes and rotties', all the time you've been talking, you haven't once mentioned the personality characteristics, apart from obviously the wonderful protection aspect.

With so much research done, you would have read that these 2 breeds arn't the best idea for a novice owner. It wouldn't only be a forum you would have read that. The people -selling- you the dog shouldn't really be selling these breeds to a novice owner (again MO).

Oh, also no, not all dog owners do training- see how many dogs there are in rescue centres? Cause and effect?
x


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> I was referring to the cost of the dog itself. It's easy to get one much cheaper but I took the advice to find a well bred dog. I have money, so don't you worry about that. *As for training, how many dog owners do that*? And fyi, a family member of mine is a dog trainer. Finally, insurance is not compulsory.


Insurance is not for you its for anyone else coming into contact with you.

An expensive dog does not mean a good dog

Im not worried about your money - you brought it up

You talking about getting PPD agressive breed dogs and now expect it to be trained from the womb???.

I could find the thread where you talked about the dogo (but i have no inclination) - I find it strange how you defend your 'large breed' of choice

I think we're somehow getting to the basis of how well you going to do with your large breed


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to people who tell me to start with a smaller dog - as if were playing some game and must get to a certain level before I can get a certain dog.
> 
> I ask questions, but all you ever do is throw it back in my face. I could go get a dog today, but am I not trying to find the best dog for me? 1,600 is alot of money, you know...


This post makes me laugh because it is a good example of how narrow minded you are going into this whole business. 
You have some very very expert people recommending and advising you here. However you choose not to listen because it is not what you want to hear. From everything you have said I would say a Labrador is good for you ....If that. Of course it is like a game. You gain more and more experience and end up owning some brilliant breeds. You can't start at the top and hope for the best. Thats not the way things work in any form of life. You can't have minimal training in a job and then become the manager can you? No. You work your way up the career ladder through training and experience with simpler tasks. In this case your working your way up the breed and handling ladder, and to be honest i think you'd fall off the first rung. You have no idea what you are getting into. Hawksport who seems very very very well educated on the topic has tried telling you repeatedly yet you shut him out and blabber on your trying to find out everything you possibly can. Wrong. Your finding out every bit you want to know and then blocking out the rest. Not what a intelligent experienced or even worthy dog owner would do. 
Price tag doesnt mean jack all i'm afraid. My dad trains champion gundogs, he has seen dogs sell for £4,000 before that are just on basics. But sold so high for their pedigree. Hell, even we sell dogs for sums that much and they aren't as highly trained as PP dogs should be. So in the bigger picture £1,600 is a measly sum of money for the standard of training you are expecting.
You also refuse larger breeds such as danes and leonbergers. Yet claim you are in love with big breeds. More like big breeds that look like they could do damage, or have a stigma attached to them. A Dane or Leo's bark would scare off any criminal, I know it would me its huge! and if you also saw the dogs you wouldnt want to go in there. To be honest as said i do think you want to parade about a tough macho dog that makes you look tough and macho. Its shameful to be honest such elegant and beatiful breeds are used to make people feel bigger or better about themselves.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> *Its shameful to be honest such elegant and beatiful breeds are used to make people feel bigger or better about themselves.*


wonders why rotties and such have bad names - enter Jason2


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

casandra said:


> I would 100 times over prefer a dog that naturally performed this sort of behaviour to one that was trained to be aggressive


As would I but it doesn't rebut my point.



> Some great dogs come from the UK


I think they're great, too, but not usually as working dogs.

How many UK dobes are at top level in competition?



> I have not confused the two of you.


The wording of your post seemed to include my post with Jason's. Thanks for the clarification.



> Jason belives a Dobermann would be a good candidate for his home, but with the way he thinks about training and lack of effort put into training a dog, the Dobermann would definitely not suit him at all.


Jason is at the front end of a learning curve. The idea of a lethally powerful protector, robotically obedient and ready to be unleashed at a single word is very attractive to many people. People without experience of high drive dogs can easily fall into the error of thinking of protection dogs as well trained versions of pet dogs but with an added on/off switch for the guarding instead of realising that, without highly skilled handling, they can become akin to a tiger held by the tail - an exaggeration but, maybe, not by much.



> How many Dobers have you worked with, may I ask?


Sure, you can ask. 

But since the truth or falseness of my claim does not depend on any personal experience (I might never have met one but still be right or I could have vast experience and still be wrong) I don't see a benefit in taking the debate into personal areas.

I know what one looks like, if that's any help.


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## Johnderondon (Jul 6, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> > Originally Posted by Snoringbear
> > Probably best to get a dog suited to a novice owner.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to people who tell me to start with a smaller dog.


Small dog does not = easy dog.

The only dog that I've found beyond my skill to deal with was the size of a cat.

Personally I would not consider even a pet bred Dobe to be a good choice for a first dog. Casandra refered to them as 'sensitive' and I agree. I don't think they are temperamentally robust enough to happily endure the mistakes that you _will_ make as a first time owner.

I wouldn't consider a working line dog unless I had a _lot_ more time and a mentor with extensive experience in the field.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Just out of interest what has the family member who is a dog trainer advised?


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Johnderondon said:


> Small dog does not = easy dog.
> 
> The only dog that I've found beyond my skill to deal with was the size of a cat.


Loved this  Completely true. Parents had a Yorkie that threw itself off a boat to try and chase after the seals in the harbour. Smalls dogs are triiiicky. =]
x


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> Casandra, how on earth did you teach your boy to know when sugar levels are low?!
> Absolutely amazed and interested
> 
> I can see the point in -properly- trained PP dogs, but I still don't think they can be trusted 100%, 100% of the time, no matter how they've been trained or by who.
> ...


Ugh, its hard and kinda gross. Basically its a form of Scent Detection. I get my dogs to perform certain tasks when they are confronted with a particular scent. When a low blood sugar occurs, the body's sweat consistency changes to the point that the smell does as well. Low sugars also induce heat, which causes more sweat. A high blood sugar, on the other hand causes the breath to smell slightly fruity and sweet. As you can imagine, collecting these scents for training purposes is NOT a fun or easy task and certainly not for those faint of heart! X___x

The training consists of inducing a low or high blood sugar 3-5 times a week. Try to imagine your most ill, sickly, dizzy, couldn't dare move if you tried moment in your life. I have to make that happen to myself once a day in order to keep the training going!



hawksport said:


> Going off topic now but there was a program on the tv not long ago about a young boy of about 8 0r 9. he suffered from diabeties and had to be watched 24hrs a day to the extent that his parents had to take it in turns to sleep so one of them was allways awake incase he went into a coma. He now has a GSD that goes everywhere with him and alerts him to blood sugar levels before symptoms show. Apart from having a dog with him 24hrs a day he can now lead a normal life.


Many people with type 1 diabetes are prone to low blood sugars as they lead active lives (especially children) and along with that, many of us cannot feel th onset of a low blood sugar. The average Continuous Glucose Monitoring device costs around £800 on its own or £400 when you purchase it alongside the £2500 insulin pump. To continuously run a CGM device, it would cost approximately £70 a week or £3500+ a year. 



Jason2 said:


> I prefer larger breeds.


The dobermann is not a large breed.



Stephny691 said:


> How big a breed are you talking? Cause with some of the really big breeds you couldn't go jogging with them for about a year+ after you got a puppy (if you went for a puppy) anyway.
> x


Actually, with any medium+ breed you should never force exercise on them until after they are 18-24 months of age. Dobermanns especially have many growth and development problems and by forcing a puppy to run with you or jog by you for miles upon miles (even as many as 3 miles a day can be too much for a Dobe puppy!) can do IRREPERABLE damage to a dog in the long run. Also, buying oversized dogs = more pressure and weight on joints = more growth and development problems again.

Also with Dobermanns you have to take into account CVI (cervical Vertebral Instability or Wobbler's Syndrome) which can be a devastating condition that can be exaserbated by too much exercise at a young age.



Jason2 said:


> I like large breeds and the look of dobermans and rottweilers - what's wrong with that? Again, you assume and say I want an aggressive looking dog - I want a jogging companion and friend - why the hell should I be looking at a great dane? I don't want a Dane. Grrrrr
> 
> Go back and refresh your memory to my original post.


Again, Dobermanns are not a large breed. Please do not get one. You haven't even been arsed to research the breed properly to know they are meant to be a medium breed (dog: 26-28" at the withers, bitch: 24-26" at withers, max weight for a dog FCI = 99lbs but more suitable weight for male would be 85-90lbs, Bitch weight 75lbs-80lbs.) you can't seriously be considering this breed when you know NOTHING about them in the real sense of the word "RESEARCH".



Jason2 said:


> I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to people who tell me to start with a smaller dog - as if were playing some game and must get to a certain level before I can get a certain dog.
> 
> I ask questions, but all you ever do is throw it back in my face. I could go get a dog today, but am I not trying to find the best dog for me? 1,600 is alot of money, you know...


I am not telling you to start with a smaller dog. I am only telling you that you have NOT done enough research and through your posts here you have proven this is NOT likely the best breed for you.

50% of all Dobermanns worldwide will succumb to Dilated Cardiomyopathy. 40% of all diagnosed cases of DCM are in Dobermanns. Many of the Europsean breeders do not even TEST for this disorder, despite the diagnostic tools being available. It has taken me years of research and careful dissection in order to get to the point where I am now with this breed. I know where to go on both sides of the pond, I know what lines will lead to disaster, what lines are likely to work best for a particular type in a dog etc.

How many Dobermanns have you lived with, how many have you seen in action, how many have you been around for more than a hour or so?

For that matter who the heck is charging £1600 for a dobermann puppy? That is beyond ridiculous! I could send you places to get a pup from fully health tested parents who have been titled in working venues for half that. You will never be able to fully trust a dog that hasn't been with you from a young age. You will never know what exactly has gone on in this "training", what happened to that dog previously could come back and bite you in the butt big time!

I feel like going "So neh" and sticking my tongue out, would that be childish?

Edit to add: Any good Dobermann breeder is aiming for a lifespan of 12+ years on their dogs now-a-days. If you can't make that sort of commitment, don't get a dog!


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

james1 said:


> Insurance is not for you its for anyone else coming into contact with you.
> 
> An expensive dog does not mean a good dog
> 
> ...


Because you know I have never said I want a Dogo Argetino. The statement is completely false and incredibly lazy. Also, where have I said I want a PPD? The doberman in question is a european import from world respected kennels with excellent bloodlines and good with children and animals, inc. cats. This is a family dog, not an aggressive dog.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

casandra said:


> Actually, with any medium+ breed you should never force exercise on them until after they are 18-24 months of age. Dobermanns especially have many growth and development problems and by forcing a puppy to run with you or jog by you for miles upon miles (even as many as 3 miles a day can be too much for a Dobe puppy!) can do IRREPERABLE damage to a dog in the long run. Also, buying oversized dogs = more pressure and weight on joints = more growth and development problems again.
> 
> Also with Dobermanns you have to take into account CVI (cervical Vertebral Instability or Wobbler's Syndrome) which can be a devastating condition that can be exaserbated by too much exercise at a young age.
> 
> ...


Loved all of it, but especially these points! Thanks for mentioning about medium breeds as well, I wasn't aware it affected them as much as big dogs. I'll know for the future 
xx


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> Because you know I have never said I want a Dogo Argetino. The statement is completely false and incredibly lazy. Also, where have I said I want a PPD? The doberman in question is a european import from world respected kennels with excellent bloodlines and good with children and animals, inc. cats. This is a family dog, not an aggressive dog.


please read Casandras post above and below



casandra said:


> 50% of all Dobermanns worldwide will succumb to Dilated Cardiomyopathy. 40% of all diagnosed cases of DCM are in Dobermanns. Many of the *Europeean breeders* do not even TEST for this disorder, despite the diagnostic tools being available. It has taken me years of research and careful dissection in order to get to the point where I am now with this breed. I know where to go on both sides of the pond, I know what lines will lead to disaster, what lines are likely to work best for a particular type in a dog etc.
> 
> How many Dobermanns have you lived with, how many have you seen in action, how many have you been around for more than a hour or so?
> 
> For that matter who the heck is charging £1600 for a dobermann puppy? That is beyond ridiculous! I could send you places to get a pup from fully health tested parents who have been titled in working venues for half that. You will never be able to fully trust a dog that hasn't been with you from a young age. You will never know what exactly has gone on in this "training", what happened to that dog previously could come back and bite you in the butt big time!


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

casandra said:


> Ugh, its hard and kinda gross. Basically its a form of Scent Detection. I get my dogs to perform certain tasks when they are confronted with a particular scent. When a low blood sugar occurs, the body's sweat consistency changes to the point that the smell does as well. Low sugars also induce heat, which causes more sweat. A high blood sugar, on the other hand causes the breath to smell slightly fruity and sweet. As you can imagine, collecting these scents for training purposes is NOT a fun or easy task and certainly not for those faint of heart! X___x
> 
> The training consists of inducing a low or high blood sugar 3-5 times a week. Try to imagine your most ill, sickly, dizzy, couldn't dare move if you tried moment in your life. I have to make that happen to myself once a day in order to keep the training going!
> 
> ...


I'm sure knew you what I meant. They are large compared to a smaller dog. And who said anything about a puppy? The doberman I saw is 2. You keep saying I've done no research - I find it amazing that you know everything about me? Just who do you think you are? I don't answer to you and certainly don't have to prove anything to you. How many people my age would listen to you make assumption after assumption? It's no wonder young ones rebel. Indeed, that doesn't make it acceptable but still...

Oh, do you know what a doberman was originally bred for.....?


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Because you know I have never said I want a Dogo Argetino. The statement is completely false and incredibly lazy. Also, where have I said I want a PPD? The doberman in question is a european import from world respected kennels with excellent bloodlines and good with children and animals, inc. cats. This is a family dog, not an aggressive dog.


Jason your first post on this thread was less than 24hrs ago. Are you trying to tell us that in the last 24 hrs you have researched this dogs pedigree found all the health, working, and temprement tests for for its lines and still had time to make 42 posts on here? If so I would of thought that you would at least know how to spell dobermann by now. Or are you just taking what is written in an advert as fact.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

hawksport said:


> Jason your first post on this thread was less than 24hrs ago. Are you trying to tell us that in the last 24 hrs you have researched this dogs pedigree found all the health, working, and temprement tests for for its lines and still had time to make 42 posts on here? If so I would of thought that you would at least know how to spell dobermann by now. Or are you just taking what is written in an advert as fact.


Wow, you really resorting to pick up very minor spelling mistakes? I've seen it spelt both ways, so I don't think it matters. Again, I see you making the assumption I've only just started researching - I give up.

I think I'm going to find another dog forum, all you ever do is judge and assume and I for one don't blame people for turning to byb's.


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

You're seriously willing to pay £1600 for a dog, just so it comes 'ready' trained, so you don't have to do any training with him whatsoever? 

How come you don't want a puppy that you can train, so you know exactly how he's trained and to bond with him?

That's a genuine question btw, not to atagonise.
x


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> Probably best to get a dog suited to a novice owner.





Jason2 said:


> I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to people who tell me to start with a smaller dog - as if were playing some game and must get to a certain level before I can get a certain dog.


Where exactly in that post did I say it had to be smaller?


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> You're seriously willing to pay £1600 for a dog, just so it comes 'ready' trained, so you don't have to do any training with him whatsoever?
> 
> How come you don't want a puppy that you can train, so you know exactly how he's trained and to bond with him?
> 
> ...


NOOO. I just don't want a puppy. Am I not allowed to do this?


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Of course you are, I didn't suggest you weren't I was simply asking a question, rather than assuming.
x


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> Wow, you really resorting to pick up very minor spelling mistakes? I've seen it spelt both ways, so I don't think it matters. Again, I see you making the assumption I've only just started researching - I give up.
> 
> I think I'm going to find another dog forum, all you ever do is judge and assume and I for one don't blame people for turning to byb's.


soooooo your thinking about breeding too maybe as byb has nothing to do with this?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Stephny691 said:


> Of course you are, I didn't suggest you weren't I was simply asking a question, rather than assuming.
> x


:lol: rep to you!


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Wow, you really resorting to pick up very minor spelling mistakes? I've seen it spelt both ways, so I don't think it matters. Again, I see you making the assumption I've only just started researching - I give up.


You are telling us it comes from well respected kennels and exellent blood lines so I presumed you had researched the dog in question. I can also tell you that one previously well respected kennels was found to have photos of dogs from other kennels on their website being passed off as their own, so don't take too much notice of what you read on websites when people are trying to sell you something
Just to help you with your research dobermann is the correct way to spell it in the UK
So what did your dog trainer family advise you?


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Wow, you really resorting to pick up very minor spelling mistakes? I've seen it spelt both ways, so I don't think it matters. Again, I see you making the assumption I've only just started researching - I give up.
> 
> I think I'm going to find another dog forum, all you ever do is judge and assume and I for one don't blame people for turning to byb's.


no offence but people are trying to advise you, to help you and whatever dog you have, i have a Doberman and would suggest against you having one to be quite honest i've read this thread and feel rather annoyed which i don't usually get but you just will not listen will you? anyone with a brain cell will tell you exactly what has been repeatedly said. I hope you do think about another dog but if not i wish you all the luck...because i think both you and the dog are going to need it


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> Of course you are, I didn't suggest you weren't I was simply asking a question, rather than assuming.
> x


I'm sorry, I'm just angry. Accept my apology please.


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## GillyR (Nov 2, 2009)

LOL- i think this is a wind up lol lol.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Just to clarify so far. Jason you came on asking about Protection Dogs. You constantly refer to the protection aspect of the breeds you are interested in.

Knowledgable people have advised that maybe this breed isn't best suited to a novice (which i agree having made the mistake of getting a poorly bred GSD cross as my first pet dog and then having the agony of re homing her 18 months later because I WASN'T UP TO THE JOB!!)

You are know what is technically known as "throwing your toys out the pram" because you have not got the replies you wanted.

I do believe to preserve some of these beautiful breeds for future generations they need to be owned by experienced owners in a vague attempt to improve the perception of them so coming on talking about "protection aspects" is not likely to endear you to certain sections of the forum.

After my experience with the GSD i chose a spaniel for my second dog and our first family dog and i feel that this has increased my knowledge immenseley (as he has proved to be a pretty stubborn little beggar). I still think i am probably 1 more dog away from a GSD to really do it justice and that is because i understand it is not all about ME. 

I don't think people have been judgemental they have been blunt and honest :001_cool:


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

hawksport said:


> So what did your dog trainer family advise you?


probably to not bother with any training as the dog will be trained and family friendly - do the hoovering, dishes, wax the car and cook dinner not to mention take itself for a walk.. .. . . . . .........


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

GillyR said:


> LOL- i think this is a wind up lol lol.


I agree


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

You have the right to be angry or disspointed maybe. Please remember, the people on here are only suggesting what they think for the best. We only get to read a little bit of information at a time, and you can't explain your entire position completely.

But when people repeatedly tell you something isn't a good idea, chances are that's because it's not a good idea. Not because of -you-, or because of -assumptions- but sometimes certain things arn't a good mix. And I think what people are trying to say is that any novice dog owner, and a breed such as a Dobermann or Rottweiler isn't a good mix. 

When people suggest that, it's not necessarily at you, it's at the situation in general. There are plenty of breeds that arn't a good idea for novice dog owners. 
At least I think that's what people are trying to say?
x

James1 and Rainybow I have no more rep for today, but if I did I would giving some to both of you for the lasts 2 posts =]
x


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> James1 and Rainybow I have no more rep for today, but if I did I would giving some to both of you for the lasts 2 posts =]
> x


dont worry the OP and PF policy of supporting people like this is why ive stopped coming on here


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

RockRomantic said:


> no offence but people are trying to advise you, to help you and whatever dog you have, i have a Doberman and would suggest against you having one to be quite honest i've read this thread and feel rather annoyed which i don't usually get but you just will not listen will you? anyone with a brain cell will tell you exactly what has been repeatedly said. I hope you do think about another dog but if not i wish you all the luck...because i think both you and the dog are going to need it


And am I being listened to? I don't need luck because I can gurantee my dog would be looked after. I know this and that's all that matters. I'm not going to try and please other people from now on.

You people say you love animals, but how many of you eat them? Have you ever considered that?

"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> Wow, you really resorting to pick up very minor spelling mistakes? I've seen it spelt both ways, so I don't think it matters. Again, I see you making the assumption I've only just started researching - I give up.
> 
> I think I'm going to find another dog forum, all you ever do is judge and assume and I for one don't blame people for turning to byb's.





Jason2 said:


> I'm sorry, I'm just angry. Accept my apology please.


How about finding a dobermann specific forum, laying out all of the information you can give about your situation and they too will let you know whether or not they think you're suitable for one of these dogs.

I know for sure that if you went to any respected breeder of Dobermanns and said "I want a dog for Personal Protection" the answer would most likely be "No". When it comes to Dobermanns, they are the BOSS BATTLE of this game you're speaking of. You do not start out with a Dobermann, you don't have to start out with a poodle, but why not go for something a bit easier to manage for a first time high energy/working dog? Giant Schnauzers are great, so are the standard ones, what about a Staffy? They are brilliant first time dogs for many people!

You cannot jump in at the deep end with this breed and I'm sorry if previously I've been harsh or inconsiderate, but it really is people like you who support idiots like these "Buy my pre-trained dobermonstertruck" that end up giving the breed a bad name. None of these dogs have the true potential that PP or even SCH dogs require. If you did buy one of these dogs and it ever did snap at someone without a very high level of provocation, it's as good as dead and you're as good as broke, not only for the £1600 you paid for the dog, but also for the 10's of thousands in lawsuit damages you'll be liable for.

It is not worth the risk on your part to be tempting fate like that. You need to have something special in order to raised a Dobermann appropriately. I do not see you having that, personally. No offense ment, but you have done NO research at all. You are obviously on the "ooh, fierce dog, must have" path still. Dobes, when raised correctly are very even tempered, loving and beautiful creatures. The dogs who have been in training since they were born were not raised correctly.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason you seem to think that I don't want you to have a dobe.
If you were to come on here asking sensible questions I would go out of my way to help you find a well bred and well reared puppy from a breeder that would give you back up for the rest of that dogs life.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> And am I being listened to? I don't need luck because I can gurantee my dog would be looked after. I know this and that's all that matters. I'm not going to try and please other people from now on.
> 
> You people say you love animals, but how many of you eat them? Have you ever considered that?
> 
> "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant


classic, he quotes someone who laid foundations to open peoples minds about what, how, why they believe what they do.

If only Jason would honour the man and look at himself lol


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

james1 said:


> classic, he quotes someone who laid foundations to open peoples minds about what, how, why they believe what they do.
> 
> If only Jason would honour the man and look at himself lol


Do you eat animals? You skipped that I see


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Jason2 said:


> You people say you love animals, but how many of you eat them? Have you ever considered that?


Please, please don't start the 'if you eat meat, you don't really love animals and you're evil' thing. 
x


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Jason2 said:


> Do you eat animals? You skipped that I see


who said I was an animal lover?


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> And am I being listened to? I don't need luck because I can gurantee my dog would be looked after. I know this and that's all that matters. I'm not going to try and please other people from now on.
> 
> You people say you love animals, but how many of you eat them? Have you ever considered that?
> 
> "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant


Jesus Christ are you really pulling that one?

Are you a vegetarian? Do you know if I am or am not vegetarian, or if anyone on here is? What happened to you saying 'I don't feel the need to go into personal areas', hmmmm?

I almost thought this was quite an entertaining troll, but it has got boring very quickly


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I don't think anyone has suggested that you would treat the dog badly


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> And am I being listened to? I don't need luck because I can gurantee my dog would be looked after. I know this and that's all that matters. I'm not going to try and please other people from now on.
> 
> You people say you love animals, but how many of you eat them? Have you ever considered that?
> 
> "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~ Immanual Kant


it may be looked after, but if it isn't receiving the correct training it won't be happy as it would make you both pretty stressed same if you give it to much exercise seeing you want a dog you can jog with... it all affects him/her later on it life but i'm not going on every things already been said..i'm not a parrot so will not repeat everyone else


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> Please, please don't start the 'if you eat meat, you don't really love animals and you're evil' thing.
> x


Just a question. Nothing more; nothing less. But why would you eat a living creature when it woke up that morning as happy as you?


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

Because, besides other reasons. Cows taste really, really, really nice.
x


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason, I've only just seen this thread, and you mention that you want a running companion - just to advise you that any puppy you buy will not be able to go jogging for at least the first 18 months of it's life, particularly if you want a large breed as overexcercise can cause joint problems.

Secondly, why do you want a dog for protection? This is a serious question, because there are strict laws in the UK surrounding the ownership of guarding dogs and if you want a pet that will guard you if necessary while there is not specific legislation about keeping protection dogs, again you are in a very dangerous area due to the DDA. It's something I wouldn't wish to risk with any of my dogs.

Lastly, you mention £1600 for a trained dog. To be honest this is not a lot of money for a trained dog. It is a lot of money, but you are effectively paying for the training, not the dog. A fully trained gundog around here is about £4000, over half that for a part trained one. It is the hours that has been put into it's training that costs.

PS - just to add i HATE ear cropping - I'm so glad I live in a country that has outlawed this heinous practice. 

I don't fully understand why you would want a dog for 'protection' so perhaps if you could elaborate on this a bit more, we may not jump to so many conclusions.


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Tinsley said:


> Jesus Christ are you really pulling that one?
> 
> Are you a vegetarian? Do you know if I am or am not vegetarian, or if anyone on here is? What happened to you saying 'I don't feel the need to go into personal areas', hmmmm?
> 
> I almost thought this was quite an entertaining troll, but it has got boring very quickly


This thread can be closed - I give up. These arguments do no good.

What I find interesting is you shout the name of a man born over 2,000 years ago.... interesting lol.


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Stephny691 said:


> Because, besides other reasons. Cows taste really, really, really nice.
> x


so true, i don't see how if you eat meat or not comes into it thought tbh


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> What I find interesting is you shout the name of a man born over 2,000 years ago.... interesting lol.


depending on what you believe...

but i won't start a religious debate


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> Just a question. Nothing more; nothing less. But why would you eat a living creature when it woke up that morning as happy as you?


Because they taste nice

Better to keep quiet and look a fool than open your mouth and prove it......cant remember


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

Jason2 said:


> This thread can be closed - I give up. These arguments do no good.
> 
> What I find interesting is you shout the name of a man born over 2,000 years ago.... interesting lol.


What's wrong with saying the name of the saviour of my religion? People often exclaim such phrases when asking whether or not something can actually be true due to the nature of what has been said. Being the daughter of a minister it has never been something frowned upon in this household


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## Stephny691 (Nov 13, 2007)

RockRomantic said:


> so true, i don't see how if you eat meat or not comes into it thought tbh


Sorry, I just got bored with it all. =] (But seriously, fillet steak? How good?)

I think some good points were raised in this thread though. And a -lot- of info about Dobes that I didn't know, and that newbies or people looking at Dobes would find interesting.
:thumbup:
x


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## Jason2 (Dec 4, 2008)

Stephny691 said:


> Because, besides other reasons. Cows taste really, really, really nice.
> x


What did someone post in here abiut instant gratification/selfishness? Hypocrites, the lot of you.


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