# Lepto Vaccine?



## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

I've been reading an article on the Lepto L4 vaccine in the Dogs Naturally Magazine regarding some dogs being adversely affected by it and some actually dying from it. Apparently "since its introduction in the UK since 2014 over 2000 reports of adverse reactions to Nobivac L4 have been received by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate which regulates UK animal drugs"
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this & if I should be inflicting it on my puppy when she has her injections? Any thoughts either way would be appreciated.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I've just had the L2 on Arwin this morning. I'm not having the L4 ever. Seen the consequences first hand sadly.


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## DaisyBluebell (Apr 14, 2017)

Oh really, more info please so I can go fully armed to the vets on Friday. So L2 is the first set of injections & the follow up just L4? Sorry its a long time since I had to have a puppy 'done'


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Your vet will probably insist you have the L4, mine doesn't now. I'm not going to go into detail on here, there are certain members that would shred the information and I really can't be arsed to deal with them, or explain why... talk to your vet, do your research and don't be told they can't get the L2 any more, yes they can, and it shouldn't cost any more.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Lily has had Lepto L4 - no problems here.


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## bogdog (Jan 1, 2014)

My vet has both L2 and L4 in stock. Recommends L4, of course, as it offers wider protection, but will vaccinate with whatever the client chooses. I chose L2.

I have no idea how many adverse reactions there have been, the odd one reported on forums certainly makes everybody sit up.

I chose L2 as, at present, there is no danger of the other leptospirosis strains in my area.

If your vet no longer stocks L2, they won't order them specially for you. It you're really concerned you might still be able to find a vet who still has L2.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

My vet still only uses L2 (at least up to six months ago) but have to tell you I've been flamed for saying so on here so there are obviously plenty happy with L4.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Mine uses Lepto 2 still, probably using up stock.

There's been a lot online about problems in puppies with the Lepto 4, not at all sure how widespread this is and whether it is a big problem, always difficult to get an unbiased view.
I think if I was looking to vaccinate a puppy I would probably lean towards the Lepto 2.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

DaisyBluebell said:


> Oh really, more info please so I can go fully armed to the vets on Friday. So L2 is the first set of injections & the follow up just L4? Sorry its a long time since I had to have a puppy 'done'


There about 200 strains of lepto spirosis in total, L2 does 2 strains L4 does 4 strains, 2 of which are the same strains as L2 plus 2 others.

You can read more on vaccinations on the WSAVA vaccinations guidelines, further down the is a FAQ section on the various vaccines including Lepto

http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines 2015 Full Version.pdf


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I just got Axel's sorted out. My vet did L2 and actually didn't even offer L4. Only thought of checking the passport after seeing your post. They did ask if I wanted the KC vaccine done but I kindly refused.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Dex had lepto 4 last year I'd say without issue, but he was incredibly quiet for 72hrs after the second jab.i have "seen" some fairly hideous side effects posted online, but it obviously isn't affecting all dogs or there would have been more, and the vaccine pulled. I've decided to stop vaccinating him now. His allergies were getting worse year on year and I don't think challenging his immune system heavily with vaccines was helping.


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## CuddleMonster (Mar 9, 2016)

Bonnie was very poorly after her first Lepto 4 jab last year, to the point where I seriously debated not giving her the second jab. After talking to my vet, I went ahead with it because we lived in a high risk area and a local dog had recently died from lepto, so on balance, I felt it was less risky to complete the course than not. She wasn't great after the second jab, but nowhere near as off colour as after the first one.

However, this year we have moved and the new vet uses a different brand of vaccine - Bonnie had absolutely no problems at all with her jabs - she's always a bit subdued for 24 hours but not even that this time. The vet said that some dogs can react to whatever is carrying the vaccine instead of the active ingredient, so maybe this was Bonnie's problem last year.

All I can say is look at the official records, talk to your vet, consider your dog's personal circumstances and make your choice based on that. I'd avoid the websites and FB pages set up by people who are convinced Lepto 4 is lethal - I found only a couple of stories that seemed to have genuine links to the vaccine - most of them were along the lines of 'my dog had to be pts with cancer a week after having the Lepto 4 jab' or '10 months after having the Lepto 4 jab my dog started having fits'.


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

Betty had her Lepto 2 the other week, the vet had run out of L4 due to a fridge failure. They alleged that the L4 was a bit of a waste of time, as L2 vaccinates against the 2 strains most common in the UK. She felt that L4 wasn't necessary and just a marketing exercise from Nobivac.


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## Wilmer (Aug 31, 2012)

https://www.bsava.com/Resources/Vet...entific-information/Leptospirosis-vaccination

I have linked to a BSAVA factsheet. This suggests that one of the serovars in Lepto 2 (_L. interrogans icterohaemorrhagiae_) is the main concern for UK dogs. Of the two additional serovars in Lepto 4, one (_L. interrogans pomona_) is rare in Europe and the other (_L. interrogans grippotyphosa_) is rare in the UK but common in Germany and France. So adverse reactions aside, for a UK resident dog there's probably not much of a risk sticking with Lepto 2 for now. Betty comes with me to France, so a little bit of concern, but for the sake of two weeks a year I'm not going to panic. If the adverse reactions are as severe and widespread as reported, I imagine Nobivac will be taking a close look at L4 safety in the meantime.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Fly just had his first L4 vacc, no problems. Got his next one in a few weeks, I'm not envisaging any issues. However I'm unsure as to why they've brought out the new vacc, possibly because of more dogs going to and from the continent?


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

Most recent report I've seen of L4 was that the incidence of medically significant reactions was 0.064%. 

Without a shadow of doubt, there WILL be dogs that have catastrophic reactions to some vaccines, medications, foods.....

Example:
I am devastatingly allergic to nuts. I'd doesn't make nuts inherently dangerous. 
I had a terrible allergic reaction to the meningitis vaccine only to then get (a different strain) of meningitis this year anyway. I would still recommend people have it. 

I've spoken to more than a few people who have been trying to pin issues common to their breed (skin issues in a Westie, hip dysplasia in German Shepherd, allergies in bulldogs....) on L4. 

I've seen many, many dogs vaccinated with L4. Both mine have had it. 
I've not yet seen any reaction or issues resulting from it at all despite the high numbers. 

It is not dangerous. Unfortunately, some animals just like some people will be unfortunate statistics.


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## tantrumbean (Aug 23, 2011)

My vet doesn't actually give the Lepto 4 unless specifically asked for it, as he says it's not very well tolerated. My pup had it as his initial jab was done at a different vet and we didn't want to start at square 1 again. He was fine, but suspect he won't be having it next year.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Katalyst said:


> Most recent report I've seen of L4 was that the incidence of medically significant reactions was 0.064%.
> 
> Without a shadow of doubt, there WILL be dogs that have catastrophic reactions to some vaccines, medications, foods.....
> 
> ...


I'm afraid I'd have to disagree here. It IS dangerous. Very dangerous. There are risks involved with all vaccines, there are catastrophic risks with the L4.

I know some people blame the L4 for all types of ailments their dogs' have experienced since having the vaccine, some will be directly related, some not so, however, I still think it is very dangerous vaccine and where possible, the L2 should be given in preference.

I'm also at a loss why some vets don't touch it and others do... some vets think it's _possibly_ a problem, others just seem to totally ignore or totally refuse to look at evidence and go on vaccinating L4 regardless.

I do try to understand where people come from, I try to see things from other people's points of view as best I can, but everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone is able to do their research and make their decisions accordingly. The spanner in the works is, how do we determine which dogs will have a reaction to the L4 and not L2, that is the six million dollar question. For me, it was too late, *TWICE*, so no, the L4 is not for any of my dogs.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Phoebe had quite a bad reaction to her second set of puppy jabs but was absolutely fine after her Lepto 4. It wouldn't even occur to me that any future dogs shouldn't get puppy jabs "just in case"



Katalyst said:


> Most recent report I've seen of L4 was that the incidence of medically significant reactions was 0.064%.


That's really low considering I read something recently that said 10% of the population have a reaction to penicillin.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I am very pro vaccinating and regular boosters but I am not keen on L4 and luckily I dont think my vet uses it! Both mine have had reactions to vaccines but I think the risk of disease outweighs the risk of reactions in all except the L4 whch is unnecessary and the KC which is not really needed. I wonder, if the parvo vaccine or distemper vaccine had such bad press as the L4 , I would go ahead and vaccinate. I think I would as the risk would be too great not to.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

8tansox said:


> I'm afraid I'd have to disagree here. It IS dangerous. Very dangerous. There are risks involved with all vaccines, there are catastrophic risks with the L4.
> 
> I know some people blame the L4 for all types of ailments their dogs' have experienced since having the vaccine, some will be directly related, some not so, however, I still think it is very dangerous vaccine and where possible, the L2 should be given in preference.
> 
> ...


I can understand why you feel so strongly. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. 
But honestly, you've been heartbreakingly unlucky. 
0.064%. It's crazy low. It's so painfully awful (and so unlikely) for your dogs to have become part of the statistics and I'm so sorry it happened to you.

It does not make the vaccine unsafe though.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

8tansox said:


> I'm afraid I'd have to disagree here. It IS dangerous. Very dangerous. There are risks involved with all vaccines, there are catastrophic risks with the L4.
> 
> I know some people blame the L4 for all types of ailments their dogs' have experienced since having the vaccine, some will be directly related, some not so, however, I still think it is very dangerous vaccine and where possible, the L2 should be given in preference.
> 
> ...


Any vaccine can cause adverse reactions in certain dogs, but out of all the bacterin non core vaccines lepto has apparently been found to cause the most adverse reactions. Which is why the VGG probably states the following:-

The WSAVA Vaccine guidelines group does state on the core vaccines.

The WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines Group (VGG) was convened in order to develop guidelines for the vaccination of dogs and cats

that have global application. The first version of these guidelines was published in 2007 and they were updated in 2010. The present

document provides an updated and expanded version of these international guidelines for the vaccination of small companion

animals and indicates the scientific evidence base on which the recommendations are made. The VGG recognises that the keeping of

pet small animals is subject to significant variation in practice and associated economics throughout the world and that vaccination

recommendations that might apply to a developed country may not be appropriate for a developing country. These guidelines are

not a mandatory edict, but rather should be used by national associations and individual veterinary practices to develop vaccination

schedules relevant to the local situation. However, the VGG strongly recommends that wherever possible ALL dogs and cats receive

the benefit of vaccination. This not only protects the individual animal, but provides optimum 'herd immunity' that minimizes the

likelihood of infectious disease outbreaks.

With this background in mind, the VGG has defined core vaccines as those which ALL dogs and cats, regardless of circumstances

or geographical location, should receive. Core vaccines protect animals from severe, life-threatening diseases that have global distribution.

Core vaccines for dogs are those that protect against canine distemper virus (CDV), canine adenovirus (CAV) and the variants

of canine parvovirus type 2 (CPV-2). Core vaccines for cats are those that protect against feline parvovirus (FPV), feline calicivirus

(FCV) and feline herpesvirus-1 (FHV-1).

However on the Non core vaccines of which leptospirosis is one they say:-
The VGG has defined *non-core *vaccines as those that are required by only those animals whose geographical location, local environment

or lifestyle places them at risk of contracting specific infections. The VGG has also classified some vaccines as *not recommended*

(where there is insufficient scientific evidence to justify their use) and has not considered a number of minority products

which have restricted geographical availability or application.

Adverse reactions are dependent on being reported either by the veterinarian in question or I believe the owner can do it too, but that would need checking. On adverse reactions they say:-

The VGG recognizes the importance of adverse reaction reporting schemes, but understands that these are variably developed in

different countries. Wherever possible, veterinarians should be actively encouraged to report all possible adverse events to the manufacturer

and/or regulatory authority to expand the knowledge base that drives development of improved vaccine safety.

These fundamental concepts proposed by the VGG may be encapsulated in the following statement:

*We should aim to vaccinate every animal with core vaccines.

Non-core vaccines should be given no more frequently than is deemed necessary.

More can be found on vaccinations, duration of immunity, titre testing etc on the full link.
http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/WSAVA Vaccination Guidelines 2015 Full Version.pdf

*


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