# feline calicivirus and breeding



## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

Hi everyone, so I have a question, out of interest not relating to me as I only have a spayed moggy but... can you breed from a cat whos had a positive test for calicivirus but has no symptoms? I think you can't but others disagree and I'd heard that some breeders do, what's the general thought. Please note that I am not a breeder or owner of pedigree cats, just interested! Thanks.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

It seems to me a_ responsible breeder _would never breed a cat who tested positive for Calicivirus!

Feline Calicivirus Infection in Cats | petMD


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## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

That's what I think. But it does seem that somebreeders breed from a cat that has tested positive but then tests negative, but I don't see how this can happen as I thought once they had the virus that's it theres no treatment?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Kittens should be vaccinated against calicivirus at the age of 9 and 12 weeks and then an annual booster. No reputable stud will take a queen whose vaccinations are not up to date so breeding should not be an issue.


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## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

That's what I thought but kittens can get the virus pre vaccination, therefore you could have a queen with calicivirus who has had all the vaccines?


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## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

Only say this because my moggy was vaccinated, but a few weeks after having her i noticed she had snuffles and when tested had calicivirus. I went with the breeder for the vaccinations as she was my next door neighbour who irresponsibly but accidently bred her two cats, who were both pure breds but different breeds.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But it does seem that somebreeders breed from a cat that has tested positive but then tests negative, but I don't see how this can happen as I thought once they had the virus that's it theres no treatment?


You're getting mixed up with herpesvirus


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> my moggy was vaccinated, but a few weeks after having her i noticed she had snuffles and when tested had calicivirus


Surely every kitten recently vaccinated would test positive?


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

Here is a link that discusses Feline Upper Respiratory Disease including Calici and Feline Herpes Virus.

Some infected cats will continue to shed Calicivirus.

Feline Upper Respiratory Infection - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

angelablack12 said:


> I went with the breeder for the vaccinations as she was my next door neighbour who irresponsibly but accidently bred her two cats, who were both pure breds but different breeds.


This does point to the sad fact that there are irresponsible BYB's out there.


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## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

Its an interesting topic, thanks for your replies. I don't think I would say my neighbour is a byb, her grandaughter accidently let their stud in with one of her queens, she has 3 pure bred queens and one pure bred stud but the stud is a different breed. She was first to say how irresponsible she had been and rehomed the kittens for free, includng all vaccinations and early neutering to friends and family. She lost a huge amount of money considering she didn't charge for the kittens and paid out for vaccinations, neutering etc. Which was the right thing to do. I dont think she's a byb just irresponsible on that one occassion. And I got a lovely moggy!


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## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

I hadnt thought of testing positive because of vaccination, would they still test positve a month after vaccination?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I'd imagine it depended on the test. If they test for antibody levels then any vaccinated cat would test +ve and the levels would presumably depend on how recently it was vaccinated. If they test for the virus then vaccination shouldn't skew the result. What tests are done will depend on exactly what the vet orders.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

angelablack12 said:


> \ I dont think she's a byb just irresponsible on that one occassion. And I got a lovely moggy!


Glad you got your moggy and she did the right thing. If not a BYB it does appear she is at the very least quite irresponsible.

First with the calicivirus and breeding. Second, although she did take responsibility, there was an intact male and a calling female that mated and produced offspring. Lives are involved here.

A _truly responsible breeder_ would not have allowed the circumstances to happen in the first place, regardless of who let the stud in with the calling queen.  My guess is she is not a registered breeder.


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## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

Totally agree she was irresponsible, but she was first to say that and was very upset. She is registered, health checks and shows with her relevant breed clubs. The stud was indoors as her stud quarters which are outdoors and heated were being renovated and she bought her boy indoors. Anyway, that's off topic really, just wanted to clarify!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

angelablack12 said:


> Totally agree she was irresponsible, but she was first to say that and was very upset. She is registered, health checks and shows with her relevant breed clubs. The stud was indoors as her stud quarters which are outdoors and heated were being renovated and she bought her boy indoors. Anyway, that's off topic really, just wanted to clarify!


Also off topic but out of interest why does she have a different breed stud to the breed of her girls?It seems strange to me as i wouldnt keep a stud of a different breed to my breed.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

Maybe she has queens of two breeds, but a stud of only one breed....
Most breeders only have one breed, but I know of some that have 2 breeds and breed with both. 

It would not be my choice, if I should ever become a breeder (which is highly unlikely, because of the stress of pregnancies and births and the heartbreak if things go wrong), if only for the risk of accidents like this, but it is not unheard of.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

we love bsh's said:


> Also off topic but out of interest why does she have a different breed stud to the breed of her girls?It seems strange to me as i wouldnt keep a stud of a different breed to my breed.


Actually, that struck me as rather odd as well, and was the reason I brought up the BYB vs. registered breeder issue.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I also know breeders with 2 breeds or 3.I find it takes up all my time and effort trying to manage one breed so i could never concentrate on two breeds.


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

3 queens and 1 stud of the same breed is enough for me, the stud is unrelated to all queens so i cant have any accidents happen.
When a family member offered me to take on breeding the ragdolls i refused as i find 3 litters a year is plenty to keep me occupied. 

However i do know of a registered breeder who breeds 5 different types of cats and has 5 different studs, she often has accidental cross breeds which i do find irresponsible as if you cant plan and do breeding properly to the correct cats then i think you shouldnt be breeding.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

How can she have accidental crossbreds? Don't the studs live in stud houses?


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

angelablack12 said:


> Totally agree she was irresponsible, She is registered, *health checks *and shows with her relevant breed clubs. Anyway, *that's off topic* really, just wanted to clarify!


Certainly those heath checks would include URD! Especially if she is showing and breeding. 

It's not at all off topic either Plus, it's your thread and your choice to take it in whatever direction you please.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Certainly those heath checks would include URD! Especially if she is showing and breeding.


It isn't normal to do routine checks for URD. As I've pointed out, testing for antibody levels would return a +ve result on every vaccinated cat so it would be pointless. You could test for the presence of the virus but you only get a +ve result when the disease is active so it doesn't show up a carrier.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> How can she have accidental crossbreds? Don't the studs live in stud houses?


Already explained that the stud was inside because of renovation work.

I know plenty of responsible breeders who work with more than one breed and I personally know one or two who have had unintended litters. The most common cause is a precocious 'kitten' being run on as a stud and still in the house. You'd all be just as horrified if a breeder put a kitten of 4-5 months out in stud accommodation but you'd condemn the breeder as a BYB when it turned out he was sexually active at that age - it's happened.


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## angelablack12 (Mar 11, 2013)

Hi all, really interesting, I didn't think about the vaccination and showing positive side! So can a cat get rid of the calcivirus as suggested earlier in the thread? I know we got side tracked with the whole byb thing, I hope I explained and made things clear as to why the stud was inside, he has his own quarters outside that were being renovated. He is one breed and the queens are another breed. Breeder passionate and involved with both breeds long term and is a committee member of both breed clubs, won't say which as it may lead people to guess who they are which isn't fair as my thread is about calicivirus not the breeder! Anyway, thanks for all the replies.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

I have a 10 mo old kitten who tested positive for calici. The test they used was PCR, which uses DNA to provide a highly accurate way to isolate the viral/bacterial/fungal cause of the URD. Actually did come from a registered breeder. I do think breeding is relevant here, but sorry for the sidetrack. 

Rufus was given his final kitten vaccines shortly after I got him. He had a slight sneeze on the day he got his vaccine. A few days later he was having a hard time breathing he was so congested. 

I am a bit confused, but I thought once they had calici, it goes into a dormant state and can reappear during times of stress? I do know there can be continued dental problems so it must not be completely gone.

Vet gave me a scientific paper, but have not read it TBH.  Happy to report Rufus has been completely symptom free once we got to the root of his infection and treated it with the proper ABs. Even though it was viral in nature, the abs did clear up the underlying bacterial infection that was complicating the viral infection.


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

FCV will be continuously shed until the cat is no longer a carrier, this can be anything from 12 weeks to 18 months but they will not always be a carrier.
FHV will go into a dormant state and may resurface at times of stress.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Lucy1012 said:


> FCV will be continuously shed until the cat is no longer a carrier, this can be anything from 12 weeks to 18 months but they will not always be a carrier.
> FHV will go into a dormant state and may resurface at times of stress.


Totally agree with this. For vast majority of cats Calicivirus will shed for couple of months and then will be clear of it. Most will not continue to be carriers unlike FHV. Alot of cats will get calicivirus and it is often mild with just a bit of sneezing. Being vaccinated does not guarantee your cat will not catch it as there are many mutations of Calicivirus much like human flu and the vaccine does not protect against all. On the other hand vaccination should prevent FHV.


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

So if FCV is eradicated early on, will a kitten still have potential long term dental issues? Or is it just when they are carriers/shedding the virus longer, like 12 - 18 months?


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## Lucy1012 (May 23, 2010)

Toby Tyler said:


> So if FCV is eradicated early on, will a kitten still have potential long term dental issues? Or is it just when they are carriers/shedding the virus longer, like 12 - 18 months?


In all honesty I have no idea. But neither FHV nor FCV have to mean the end of breeding both are manageable. IMO Ideally any cat that tests positive for FHV would be neutered due to being a risk at any point and silently shedding the virus but some believe there are ways of managing it. FCV will go in time. 50% are virus free in 75 days.

All cats are at risk of FHV & FCV the vaccinations just lessen the symptoms, you can bring the virus in from shows, the vets, your friends house anywhere and breeders and catteries being at high risk. It is devastating yes but not the end of the world... I currently have a FCV carrier.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Lucy1012 said:


> In all honesty I have no idea. But neither FHV nor FCV have to mean the end of breeding both are manageable. IMO Ideally any cat that tests positive for FHV would be neutered due to being a risk at any point and silently shedding the virus but some believe there are ways of managing it. FCV will go in time. 50% are virus free in 75 days.
> 
> All cats are at risk of FHV & FCV the vaccinations just lessen the symptoms, you can bring the virus in from shows, the vets, your friends house anywhere and breeders and catteries being at high risk. It is devastating yes but not the end of the world... I currently have a FCV carrier.


We had an outbreak like you a few years ago I have no idea where it came from we were closed stud but had been showing so guess it came from there but who knows? It did the rounds through 5 of the girls and 2 litters of kittens (all cats were vaccinated) but kittens only 7 weeks old. Anyway symptoms were relatively mild, kittens quite bad with sneezing and coughing but pulled though and were vaccinated as normal. I did think it would mean the end of our breeding but after testing for several months the vet declared that they were no longer shedding and therefore we could resume breeding. Never had a problem since luckily. Agree with FHV because of intermitant shedding it is wise to neuter. With FCV the symptoms can be very mild and so people may not even realise there cat has ever had it.

In terms of dental problems I guess it is because FCV generally attacks the mouth, often causing ulcers etc and so once damage starts even though virus stops being an issue the problems continue but I could be wrong?


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## Toby Tyler (Feb 17, 2013)

chloe1975 said:


> Agree with FHV because of intermitant shedding it is wise to neuter. With FCV the symptoms can be very mild and so people may not even realise there cat has ever had it.
> 
> In terms of dental problems I guess it is because FCV generally attacks the mouth, often causing ulcers etc and so once damage starts even though virus stops being an issue the problems continue but I could be wrong?


Got 2 kittens from same registered breeder I used 13 years prior. They were air shipped, which is not uncommon in the US. Clancy, who is only 3 weeks older than Rufus, never showed any symptoms. It was only Rufus who had a slight sneeze when he got his final kitten shots one week after he arrived. Then he became really ill with a cold that wouldn't go away. Vet wanted to 'assume' it was FHV. Fortunately I insisted on having him tested and it turned out to be FCV, Bordatella, and Micoplasma.

Since treatment (with ABs) he has shown no symptoms. Still, vet said we would need to continue to monitor his dental health closely and he might need extractions later.  I have stepped up home care and his red gum line has almost disappeared.


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## Tia2016 (Nov 12, 2016)

chloe1975 said:


> We had an outbreak like you a few years ago I have no idea where it came from we were closed stud but had been showing so guess it came from there but who knows? It did the rounds through 5 of the girls and 2 litters of kittens (all cats were vaccinated) but kittens only 7 weeks old. Anyway symptoms were relatively mild, kittens quite bad with sneezing and coughing but pulled though and were vaccinated as normal. I did think it would mean the end of our breeding but after testing for several months the vet declared that they were no longer shedding and therefore we could resume breeding. Never had a problem since luckily. Agree with FHV because of intermitant shedding it is wise to neuter. With FCV the symptoms can be very mild and so people may not even realise there cat has ever had it.
> 
> In terms of dental problems I guess it is because FCV generally attacks the mouth, often causing ulcers etc and so once damage starts even though virus stops being an issue the problems continue but I could be wrong?


Hi know this post was written a few years ago, but I've found myself in a similar situation and hope you can give some advice. I bought in a pedigree breeding queen as a kitten, also have an outdoor cat, I bred a first litter from my queen middle of this year and when the kittens were about 4 weeks old noticed mum was grinding her teeth when eating, no other symptoms so put it down to stress of having the kittens. The kittens at approx. 8 weeks went down with a mysterious 'virus' for 48 hrs, all individually and recovered very quickly, a couple had a slight limp and were 'quiet' for a day but bounced back quickly. It was only when one of the ones with a limp, who was limping on opposite legs went to the vet for a check up, discovered he had a high temperature. He was fully recovered 48 hrs later.
They had their first vacs a week later and mum was seen for her booster and we asked the vet to check her teeth, at which point it was found she had ulcers on her top palate.
Went to my usual vet for a second opinion who ordered a swab test and gave pain killers and found her gums very bad as well.
After a lot of research on the net came across Calicivirus and the penny dropped, the kittens, the mum with ulcers...urgh I'd never heard of Calici and assumed she was protected as vaccinated.

The results came back that she had Calici. The kittens of course also must of had calici. I had kept a kitten as a second breeding queen but after getting the results I now realise it is probably the end of my breeding. I got my outdoor cat tested just so I know what I have or haven't got in my house and and so sad to say the result came back today that she to has Calici although has no symptoms and never has throughout her life (she's 13 yrs old now).
I am interested in your post about your 5 cats going down with it and making a full recovery and then testing negative. I'm unsure what to do now. Obviously at this moment I have now intentions to breed and seriously considering neutering both my breeding girls (older one is already neutered) but i'm holding onto the hope they may get rid of the virus given time. I've been giving all my cats Cocunut oil, L-Lysine and plaque off, and enzyme toothpaste daily. I vaccinate with a dead vaccine now. What's the likely hood of this happening from your experience? Vets just tell me it'll never happen and to neuter and be done  But your post has given me some hope.
Thanks


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

It does sound as though your cats had calici only but the trouble with a swab test is that calici, if present, will overwhelm FHV in the lab test. Glasgow now do a combined FHV PCR and calici swab test but I don't think it can completely reliably find FHV carriers. The mildness of your cats' symptoms would suggest just calici and I cannot see why you would not wait and see if you have any permanent carriers. I think that is quite rare but you have to bear in mind that, as was stated previously, vaccination does not claim to prevent disease, only reduce the severity of symptoms and anyway, having had calici does not mean a cat cannot catch it again. Cats overcome calici in varying timescales but I should think that if you test again in 6 months time, you will have an idea if your girls are likely to clear the virus. The only problem with a swab is that it may not detect low level carriers so it might be worth doing more than one swab if you get a negative result. (By the way, I would never keep breeding cats with a cat allowed outside access.)


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## Tia2016 (Nov 12, 2016)

QOTN said:


> It does sound as though your cats had calici only but the trouble with a swab test is that calici, if present, will overwhelm FHV in the lab test. Glasgow now do a combined FHV PCR and calici swab test but I don't think it can completely reliably find FHV carriers. The mildness of your cats' symptoms would suggest just calici and I cannot see why you would not wait and see if you have any permanent carriers. I think that is quite rare but you have to bear in mind that, as was stated previously, vaccination does not claim to prevent disease, only reduce the severity of symptoms and anyway, having had calici does not mean a cat cannot catch it again. Cats overcome calici in varying timescales but I should think that if you test again in 6 months time, you will have an idea if your girls are likely to clear the virus. The only problem with a swab is that it may not detect low level carriers so it might be worth doing more than one swab if you get a negative result. (By the way, I would never keep breeding cats with a cat allowed outside access.)


Thanks for your reply. Yes I believe the swab test was for both FHV and FCV done via Bristol Lab, it showed DNA profile of 21 and 28 scoring 0-50 so middle of the road for both cats for FCV and negative for FHV. All cats are also tested negative for FeLv/Fiv. I assume that as all 3 cats are symptom free and the ulcers/gingivitis my breeding queen cat had has completely cleared up that the virus isn't active but is still showing in their DNA? I hope that they will rid themselves of it given time. They are all on a natural diet now and as mentioned have their daily supplements to help with the fight of Calici. I was going to retest my breeding Queen Feb time next year which would of given plenty of time between symptoms and diagnosis and time for it to (hopefully) be rid But as it was only yesterday the result came back for my outdoor cat I guess I really need to go from that date and retest later then Feb timescale now.

My outdoor cat is to old to be turned into an indoor cat full time and besides, the breeding Queen has an obsession with her and it keeps bringing her in heat! I have an outdoor insulated run with cosy house so she will only ever go out into the run now when they weather turns warmer next year, she'll never be allowed to roam as before. During winter she is happy staying separated from the other two in my sons bedroom, but obviously he cuddles her and then cuddles one of the others so from an air bourne/contact perspective if won't help I know!.

If when I retest in several months, it returns positive results in one of the 3 for example, would this mean that cat is now a carrier?
Thanks


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

As far as I am aware, none of the supplements you are giving your cats have any direct effect on calici. I know nothing about cocomut oil in relation to cats, the plaque off is for general dental health and lysine was only ever advocated for FHV but research has failed to prove conclusively that it is effective.

It is some time since I looked at the percentages so cannot quote them but a large number of cats will stop carrying calici after 28 days, more will overcome the virus after 2 months and still more will eventually become free of it. I think three months may be too short a time span but worth testing to find out . Don't give up at that point if they are still carrying because there will still be a good chance they will be free in due course.

The trouble with calici is that it is so widespread. As you have already discovered some strains are so mild, many cats do not show symptoms so simply going to stud or the vet could put your cats at risk again.

My vet recommended Purevax, which has a killed calici vaccine, for cats who tend to have gingivitis in case the vaccine itself could cause a problem. He spoke to Diane Addie who advised this.


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## Tia2016 (Nov 12, 2016)

QOTN said:


> As far as I am aware, none of the supplements you are giving your cats have any direct effect on calici. I know nothing about cocomut oil in relation to cats, the plaque off is for general dental health and lysine was only ever advocated for FHV but research has failed to prove conclusively that it is effective.
> 
> It is some time since I looked at the percentages so cannot quote them but a large number of cats will stop carrying calici after 28 days, more will overcome the virus after 2 months and still more will eventually become free of it. I think three months may be too short a time span but worth testing to find out . Don't give up at that point if they are still carrying because there will still be a good chance they will be free in due course.
> 
> ...


Yes I am using Purevax now, just had my breeding queen given her booster with this and the other two will also only have Purevax now for their boosters.

I am giving the supplements in the hope that it may help the cats to rid themselves of the virus, I think anything (as long as it's safe) is worth trying.

I am concerned I don't have time on my side to wait months to retest though as my breeding queen is constantly coming in and out of heat which is a worry with pyometra always a risk and more so to keep letting her cycle without being bred and of course she goes off food each time (she's a fussy eater anyway without being in heat) and she's spraying on anything she can Urgh. 
I'm starting to think spaying her would be the best solution for her and as her daughter is 6 months it gives me the time for her daughter, to retest in several months before (hopefully) she starts her heat cycle....


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## Linda Tobin (Nov 25, 2016)

Please can some one advise me what to do.i have had a rough time with breeders selling kittens for eventual breeding who are on the non active even when I was told by the breeder that they would be on the active( I asked for advice from the GCCF and they said it was between me and the breeder ).I now have four kittens for sale ( now only for pet homes unregistered ) and at their first health check my vet found a small ulcer on one of the kittens tongues.He is being treated for this and I am devastated as it seems the mum might be a carrier of car flu.I have asked my vet and another what I should do as all the kittens have been booked .One vet said that in the cat population 70% of cats may have sometime of issue related to cat flu.
He advised me to not re home my breeding cats but tell prospective owners about the ulcers.My own vet said the kittens will usually live happy lives.
I am devastated and really don't know what to ? I have a stunning stud boy and two breeding queens and I was building my cattery.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Not much you can do except follow your own vet's advice though you must tell prospective buyers and explain the full consequences re the chances of ongoing problems and insurance exclusions.

You then need to get all your cats properly tested and not breed again until you know they're clear.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

_Please can some one advise me what to do. i have had a rough time with breeders selling kittens for eventual breeding who are on the non active even when I was told by the breeder that they would be on the active_

If you have proof they were meant to be registered active and are not, trading standards are the people to talk to. By proof I mean emails for example. Your unregistered kittens... You still bred from the cat even though it was registered non-active?


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## Linda Tobin (Nov 25, 2016)

OrientalSlave said:


> _Please can some one advise me what to do. i have had a rough time with breeders selling kittens for eventual breeding who are on the non active even when I was told by the breeder that they would be on the active_
> 
> If you have proof they were meant to be registered active and are not, trading standards are the people to talk to. By proof I mean emails for example. Your unregistered kittens... You still bred from the cat even though it was registered non-active?


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## Linda Tobin (Nov 25, 2016)

Hi 
Thank you for your help, yes I have all the breeders emails.I have contacted her several times but she is just ignoring me.I will phone the trading standards on Monday.
At least then I will feel that I have tried.
Thanks again


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Do you have a stud and queens all from the one breeder?


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