# German Shepherd breeder in Scotland?



## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could recommend me a reputable GSD breeder in Scotland? I don't plan to add a pup until at least the end of next year, possibly longer but I want to start my research now .

Thanks in advance.


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## Froslass (Dec 4, 2013)

Have you had a wee look on the KC website?


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Froslass said:


> Have you had a wee look on the KC website?


I did have a brief look but to be honest I don't know exactly what i am looking for, i know the health tests required but apart from that im not sure what else to look out for. It is very important to me that i am not supporting an unethical breeder .


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Any particular type of GSD?


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Not 100% sure on what type to be honest.
Medium/longhaired black and tan male is about as far as I've got so far..


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Conbhairean German Shepherd Dogs :: UK hobby breeder of german shepherd puppies in Scotland seen these guys recommend and they have some stunning dogs I'm near sure a member has a stunning long coat male from this kennel, the breeder I was going to get a GSD from used a stud dog from here and produced some beautiful puppies!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Conbhairean German Shepherd Dogs :: UK hobby breeder of german shepherd puppies in Scotland seen these guys recommend and they have some stunning dogs I'm near sure a member has a stunning long coat male from this kennel, the breeder I was going to get a GSD from used a stud dog from here and produced some beautiful puppies!


This is who I was going to say.

You're right - Shrap was the owner with Dino - stunning dog. If you type her in on the user list you can find her past pics


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Conbhairean German Shepherd Dogs :: UK hobby breeder of german shepherd puppies in Scotland seen these guys recommend and they have some stunning dogs I'm near sure a member has a stunning long coat male from this kennel, the breeder I was going to get a GSD from used a stud dog from here and produced some beautiful puppies!





dandogman said:


> This is who I was going to say.
> 
> You're right - Shrap was the owner with Dino - stunning dog. If you type her in on the user list you can find her past pics


Thanks for the replies .

I did actually contact them a couple of months back but didn't get a reply. I've seen Shrap's Dino, he's gorgeous. Ozzy my friends Shepherd is also a Conbhairean lad. He does have problems with his hips though and bad skin allergies, not sure if its down to breeding or just bad luck though.

Still a breeder I would consider though depending on if they ever get back to me .


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Paula07 said:


> Thanks for the replies .
> 
> I did actually contact them a couple of months back but didn't get a reply. I've seen Shrap's Dino, he's gorgeous. Ozzy my friends Shepherd is also a Conbhairean lad. He does have problems with his hips though and bad skin allergies, not sure if its down to breeding or just bad luck though.
> 
> Still a breeder I would consider though depending on if they ever get back to me .


I contacted the Kesyra kennel before we got Pippa and we were considering different breeds. I didn't get a reply for a good few months, by that time I'd got Pippa! I would drop them another email to be honest, sometimes these things get stuck in spam filters. 
That's the first time I've heard anything negative about Conbhairean dogs I have to say. Have you joined the GSD forum?


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

dandogman said:


> I contacted the Kesyra kennel before we got Pippa and we were considering different breeds. I didn't get a reply for a good few months, by that time I'd got Pippa! I would drop them another email to be honest, sometimes these things get stuck in spam filters.
> That's the first time I've heard anything negative about Conbhairean dogs I have to say. Have you joined the GSD forum?


Yeah, il do that, good idea . I haven't, just been lurking at the moment . Me too, they seem to have a good reputation but obviously with Ozzy having the health issues he does it worries me slightly.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Paula07 said:


> Yeah, il do that, good idea . I haven't, just been lurking at the moment . Me too, they seem to have a good reputation but obviously with Ozzy having the health issues he does it worries me slightly.


If both parents had good scores ( you can check on the KC site) it could be more environmental issue with the hips. You can also check what score the other dogs in the litter are throwing out if they are also tested and registered with the KC.

So here is Cian's Dad, and the results of the registered progeny:

The Kennel Club

So if you know the Father and Mother's KC name of your friends dog you can check if they are throwing high scores.


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Meezey said:


> If both parents had good scores ( you can check on the KC site) it could be more environmental issue with the hips. You can also check what score the other dogs in the litter are throwing out if they are also tested and registered with the KC.
> 
> So here is Cian's Dad, and the results of the registered progeny:
> 
> ...


Both his parents have good hip scores. His Dad is Sieger Conbhairean Lauser who has a hip score of 10. I wasn't able to find his Mum but according to his papers her hipscores are low and her pedigree name is Laurens Princess, I think. Ozzy's pedigree name is Kidaforce Jed so he doesn't have a Conbhairean name but his Dad is a Conbhairean. Not sure what that means, all very confusing to me .


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Do not just concentrate on HD ED is equally if not more important so research what dogs are throwing dogs with scores of more than 0

GSD Elbow Scores


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Do not just concentrate on HD ED is equally if not more important so research what dogs are throwing dogs with scores of more than 0
> 
> GSD Elbow Scores


Thanks, I will definitely be aware of this when choosing a pup. Elbow scored parents is a must anyway. Will check out the link .


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Paula07 said:


> Both his parents have good hip scores. His Dad is Sieger Conbhairean Lauser who has a hip score of 10. I wasn't able to find his Mum but according to his papers her hipscores are low and her pedigree name is Laurens Princess, I think. Ozzy's pedigree name is Kidaforce Jed so he doesn't have a Conbhairean name but his Dad is a Conbhairean. Not sure what that means, all very confusing to me .


Kidaforce German Shepherds - Home

So Ozzy would have taken the name of the breeders Affix


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Kidaforce German Shepherds - Home
> 
> So Ozzy would have taken the name of the breeders Affix


Yes I thought that. I have had a look through their site before but cant find Ozzy's Mum on it. Just remembered, his Mums name is Kinranin Laurens Princess. Couldn't find anything on her though.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Paula07 said:


> Yes I thought that. I have had a look through their site before but cant find Ozzy's Mum on it. Just remembered, his Mums name is Kinranin Laurens Princess. Couldn't find anything on her though.


Yeah looks like that affix is no longer in use, it was a breeder in Fife though?


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Yeah looks like that affix is no longer in use, it was a breeder in Fife though?


Hm strange, so do you know how has he ended up as a kidaforce if none of his parents have that name? I think so.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

(I dont know this breeder so my comment isn't aimed at their dogs) Its not just the parent's hip scores which are important, but the pedigree is also important. Bad hips can skip multiple generations, so I would want to look at grandparents and aunts, uncles, great grandparents ect ect. Elbow scores are also important as said above; though higher scores used to be 'acceptable', the kennel club has recently changed its stance that their opinion is dogs with higher than 0 should not be bred from. I would also want to see eye test results.

I know in some lines they also test for haemophilia, and I know that dwarfism and epilepsy can be prevalent in some lines, but i'm not sure if there are tests available (shepherds are not my breed!). Might be worth looking into.

Hey, have you ever used 'MyKC'? If not, I would set up an account as it could definitely help you in your research.

https://www.mykc.org.uk/

Set up an account, log in, go to 'Tools and resources' then 'Look up a dog' then 'German shepherd dog' and then pop in the kennel name of the dog you want to look up, and it will not only give you the health tests on file for that individual dog, but you can look up the whole pedigree of the dog, its progeny, brothers and sisters ect ect and all their health test results.

Its worth baring in mind that not all health test results applicable to every breed are on file, so if in doubt I feel its always best to speak to the breeder directly (for example, some health tests done via pennhip or abroad might not show on the system)


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Dober said:


> (I dont know this breeder so my comment isn't aimed at their dogs) Its not just the parent's hip scores which are important, but the pedigree is also important. Bad hips can skip multiple generations, so I would want to look at grandparents and aunts, uncles, great grandparents ect ect. Elbow scores are also important as said above; though higher scores used to be 'acceptable', the kennel club has recently changed its stance that their opinion is dogs with higher than 0 should not be bred from. I would also want to see eye test results.
> 
> I know in some lines they also test for haemophilia, and I know that dwarfism and epilepsy can be prevalent in some lines, but i'm not sure if there are tests available (shepherds are not my breed!). Might be worth looking into.
> 
> ...


Will definitely bare that in mind. 
I will set up an account and check that out.
Thank you .


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Paula07 said:


> Hm strange, so do you know how has he ended up as a kidaforce if none of his parents have that name? I think so.


I don't know tbh, he's quite a prolific stud though  181 puppies from 28 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.

You can check through most of the lines on there but sometimes they will use foreign dogs so google is often your best friend to find the dogs information


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

Meezey said:


> I don't know tbh, he's quite a prolific stud though  181 puppies from 28 litters have been registered with this dog as the sire.
> 
> You can check through most of the lines on there but sometimes they will use foreign dogs so google is often your best friend to find the dogs information


Who? Ozzy's Dad is? Sorry, im hard work sometimes .

Yes, google has proven to be a good source for research so far anyway!

Thank you .


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Paula07 said:


> Both his parents have good hip scores. His Dad is Sieger Conbhairean Lauser who has a hip score of 10. I wasn't able to find his Mum but according to his papers her hipscores are low and her pedigree name is Laurens Princess, I think. Ozzy's pedigree name is Kidaforce Jed so he doesn't have a Conbhairean name but his Dad is a Conbhairean. Not sure what that means, all very confusing to me .


His Dam appears to have an uneven score of 10/3 = 13

If the Dam's score was 6/7 = 13 then it would be different, but I have to say with his Dam's score, I'm not totally surprised as uneven hips causes increased wear.

To have the kennel name 'Conbhairean', the dam has to be owned by the kennel. His Dam would be owned by 'Kidaforce' but they haven't added their kennel name on.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> His Dam appears to have an uneven score of 10/3 = 13
> 
> If the Dam's score was 6/7 = 13 then it would be different, but I have to say with his Dam's score, I'm not totally surprised as uneven hips causes increased wear.
> 
> To have the kennel name 'Conbhairean', the dam has to be owned by the kennel. His Dam would be owned by 'Kidaforce' but they haven't added their kennel name on.


The dam wasn't and isn't owned by Kidaforce, that's why we were trying to work out why the dog had a Kidaforce affix  The affix was Kinranin and the owner of the Dam was Kinranin, Affix is no longer alive, so unless the Kinranin was owned by Kidaforce at some stage?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> The dam wasn't and isn't owned by Kidaforce, that's why we were trying to work out why the dog had a Kidaforce affix


oh I think I've got the wrong end of the stick! ooops


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> His Dam appears to have an uneven score of 10/3 = 13
> 
> If the Dam's score was 6/7 = 13 then it would be different, but I have to say with his Dam's score, I'm not totally surprised as uneven hips causes increased wear.
> 
> To have the kennel name 'Conbhairean', the dam has to be owned by the kennel. His Dam would be owned by 'Kidaforce' but they haven't added their kennel name on.


10/3 would suggest an injury to me?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> oh I think I've got the wrong end of the stick! ooops


No worries it got a bit complicated and that's why I can't work out why they dog has an Kidaforce affix? Maybe they owned the bitch and then moved her on? In 2009 she was 3 and owned by Kinranin though?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

dandogman said:


> *His Dam appears to have an uneven score of 10/3 = 13
> 
> If the Dam's score was 6/7 = 13 then it would be different, but I have to say with his Dam's score, I'm not totally surprised as uneven hips causes increased wear. *
> 
> To have the kennel name 'Conbhairean', the dam has to be owned by the kennel. His Dam would be owned by 'Kidaforce' but they haven't added their kennel name on.


That's quite a bold statement, especially since they're not _that_ uneven and not _that_ high. There is a lot more to hips and hip dysplasia than you imply with this comment!

As for why the dog would have a different affix, there could be lots of reasons for that. Its quite common for nice puppies to be sold on a co-ownership on breeding rights, so sometimes the first litter is bred under a different affix, then the co-ownership might be removed. Just as an example anyway. Best to speak to the owners!


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> 10/3 would suggest an injury to me?


The Dam's dam (granddam) has 8/3 so I would suggest there's a genetic link.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Dober said:


> That's quite a bold statement, especially since they're not _that_ uneven and not _that_ high. There is a lot more to hips and hip dysplasia than you imply with this comment!


I've been told you don't want anymore than 3 'points' above or below the other score from a few Lab people, just assuming the same for GSD's, not sure why it wouldn't be. 
I know they're not that high, but there's a large genetic link. Some experts believe it is soley genetic, bad hips will get worse, but good hips won't deteriote much.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

dandogman said:


> The Dam's dam (granddam) has 8/3 so I would suggest there's a genetic link.


But that's not high, and really not high at all for a GSD..


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> But that's not high, and really not high at all for a GSD..


I believe the average is 19? So whilst not 'high' it's not even either. Maybe I'm wrong about the scores, being 'not great' I know little about GSD's, but I would not buy a Labrador with the same hip score or same scale of uneven hips.


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I've been told you don't want anymore than 3 'points' above or below the other score from a few Lab people, just assuming the same for GSD's, not sure why it wouldn't be.
> I know they're not that high, but there's a large genetic link. Some experts believe it is soley genetic, bad hips will get worse, but good hips won't deteriote much.


You really need to do more research, before repeating things a few people have told you.

Hip scores are not the be all and end all. In breeds like labs where there are masses of choice when it comes to fully health tested stud dogs with great results, then yes you may be looking for a stud dog with those requirements, but not everything is the same in every breed, and not everyone's requirements are the same from what they want to achieve.

Hip scores should be about a long term, overall breeding plan, in my opinion. Not necessarily about the right now. In an ideal world we'd all only be breeding 0:0 dogs, but unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Breeding is not a black and white, exact science.

If I had a Dobermann stud with a hip score of 10:3 or 8:3 and met a lot of my other requirements (complimenting my bitch and hopefully improving faults I want to work on, proven working ability, success in the show ring, phpv clear, vwd clear, DCM free at time of testing, great temperament, longevity in the pedigree and the rest!) i'd use him in a second!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The world is not exactly short of GSD so there is no reason to accept a Hip score of double figures, they should be below 10 IMHO.

I certainly would not be breeding from or buying a pup from stock that had hip scores in double figures, nor elbow scores of anything other than 0

And there are PLENTY of excellent GSD sires and dams that meet that criteria.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> The world is not exactly short of GSD so there is no reason to accept a Hip score of double figures, they should be below 10 IMHO.
> 
> I certainly would not be breeding from or buying a pup from stock that had hip scores in double figures, nor elbow scores of anything other than 0
> 
> And there are PLENTY of excellent GSD sires and dams that meet that criteria.


In the show and Pet world?


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Dober said:


> You really need to do more research, before repeating things a few people have told you.
> 
> Hip scores are not the be all and end all. In breeds like labs where there are masses of choice when it comes to fully health tested stud dogs with great results, then yes you may be looking for a stud dog with those requirements, but not everything is the same in every breed, and not everyone's requirements are the same from what they want to achieve.
> 
> ...


Well, I disagree, which is fine, the world would be boring if we agreed on everything


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

dandogman said:


> Well, I disagree, which is fine, the world would be boring if we agreed on everything


Lol @ negative repping me for disagreeing. That's funny


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> In the show and Pet world?


Yep, I get the KC Breed Supplement on Pastoral and there loads and loads of bitches and dogs with low hip scores and 0 elbow scores.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Yep, I get the KC Breed Supplement on Pastoral and there loads and loads of bitches and dogs with low hip scores and 0 elbow scores.


I know the elbows there are a lot of 0, wasn't so sure about GSD with low scores as a rule I know good Rottweiler breeders won't use a dog with a score with double firgures. Wasn't so sure about GSD and some reason I thought the average was higher in GSD for some reason  Do you get many 0/0 hips?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> Yep, I get the KC Breed Supplement on Pastoral and there loads and loads of bitches and dogs with low hip scores and 0 elbow scores.


Im not saying the bitch in question should or shouldn't have been bred, in my opinion those scores are not enough to decide from for me.

Like I said before, people have different priorities and if those are your requirements than that's fine. I haven't looked for a shepherd litter, so you might be right there might be loads, but in my experience when there first looks to be 'loads' of dogs available, when it actually comes to looking for a stud dog it is a lot harder than just picking one from that list, and compromises have to be made one way or another.

For pet breeders with no real vision to their breeding plan, just wanting low health test scores, then its easy there IS a huge list. When you've actually got a breeding plan and are looking to breed high quality dogs (which are great examples of their breeds in terms of health, temperament, working ability and conformation) then it becomes more difficult. Not impossible, but in my opinion there is no perfect dog and I would take slightly uneven or high scores over plenty of other faults or health issues.

Anyway OP, you'll get differing opinions in every aspect of dog breeding and ownership  Hopefully some food for thought!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I know the elbows there are a lot of 0, wasn't so sure about GSD with low scores as a rule I know good Rottweiler breeders won't use a dog with a score with double firgures. Wasn't so sure about GSD and some reason I thought the average was higher in GSD for some reason  Do you get many 0/0 hips?


THe BMS figure is not really the issue, you should be breeding from dogs which have hip scores well below it.

I have never bothered to enumerate the number of 0:0 scores.

And yes Dober a GSD is more than just a hip score, it is elbows, blood, eyes, conformation, temperament, performance etc.

But you have to start somewhere, and with a robust framework it matters little what the rest of the dog is actually like it will not be able to fulfil its function (for those of us who have performance dogs).

There are no guarantees re hip scoring and it is multifactorial, but I know what I would avoid in a numerically large breed such as mine.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Dober said:


> Lol @ negative repping me for disagreeing. That's funny


It wasn't a rep for disagreeing, it was for the way in which your post came across.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> THe BMS figure is not really the issue, you should be breeding from dogs which have hip scores well below it.
> 
> I have never bothered to enumerate the number of 0:0 scores.
> 
> ...


I agree with the above. Good post.


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

dandogman said:


> I've been told you don't want anymore than 3 'points' above or below the other score from a few Lab people, just assuming the same for GSD's, not sure why it wouldn't be.
> I know they're not that high, but there's a large genetic link. Some experts believe it is soley genetic, bad hips will get worse, but good hips won't deteriote much.


we say no more than 4 points difference and you are correct realy uneven hips go on to produce realy uneven or high scoring hips


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Meezey said:


> I know the elbows there are a lot of 0, wasn't so sure about GSD with low scores as a rule I know good Rottweiler breeders won't use a dog with a score with double firgures. Wasn't so sure about GSD and some reason I thought the average was higher in GSD for some reason  Do you get many 0/0 hips?


theres a few every year my nearly 9 yr old is 0:0 he wasnt the only one in his quarter of the BRS


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

going back to the original question re breeders in Scotland:
Apart from Heather already mentioned at Conbhairean
there is Jim at Eskgyle Eskgyle German Shepherd Dogs
Mandy at Hundark http://www.hundarkgsd.co.uk/


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Wildmoor said:


> theres a few every year my nearly 9 yr old is 0:0 he wasnt the only one in his quarter of the BRS


I was hoping you would turn up  Thank you great scores so wish there were a lot more of them all around in every breed


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I'm not a breeder or by any means an epxert - just a nerd who has spent _waaay_ too much time looking into breeders lol.

When I started looking into rottweiler breeders I made a list of various things I believe good breeders should do, and what I considered appropriate results. In my case I considered - hip scores, elbow scores, heart teesting, eye testing, breed club character assesment, and evidence of any other working / training titles.

I cross referenced lists of breeders on several sites (inc KC ABS, champdogs "health tested" lists, etc.) and initially made a list of breeders that appeared on both.

I then went through each breeder - looking at their website, reading their info, and looking at the dogs in their lines.

I went through the KC site to check health test results of all the named dogs I could find from each breeder. I checked the breed club site to find dogs that had passed health and temperament tests.

I gathereed all this info onto one document and colour coded breeders accordingly. 
Green were those that seemed the best - generally those that did the most, and had the best results. For example I found one breeder with consistently low hip scores, good elbows, heart and eye tested and many dogs character assessed. 
Orange breeders were those that maybe didn't do all the testing, or maybe used dogs with slightly higher hip scores, or simply I found less info on their dogs. 
Red breeders speaks for itself - those with little health testing or with bad results (inc one with high hips, elbows of 2, and no heart or eye testing).

Aside from my online research I've been talking to various people in the breed (inc our own Meezy and 8tansox - thanks again lol) who have helped. Personal recommendations from someone you trust are invaluable.

Sorry for the rambling....  Think I'm just trying to say that I understand its not easy finding a really great breeder of a breed, especially a breed you are new too, and this helped me loads. Obviously it doesn't stop there - if I go back to the list I would still go through my "potentials" to find the perfect one, looking at other aspects too like home or kennel reared. But I did find it a good starting point; and certainly found one or two I would point blank rule out!


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