# Caroline Flack



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

So very sad... RIP beautiful, funny, smart girl...

Such a pity.https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/15/entertainment/caroline-flack-love-island-dead-trnd/index.html


----------



## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

It’s very sad so young


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Warning- contains swearing.

Just awful and so sad
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...own-article-about-caroline-flack-from-website


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

This is so sad. I couldn’t stand her but I was gutted to hear it, nobody deserves to be driven to this.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

RIP. Always sad when somebody takes their own life.
Annoys me that the media are trying to blame her court case or tv career though...she was clearly struggling with mental health problems and its never as simple as that.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Fame comes at the price.
She was in a bad place recently, obviously.

Her friends and family must feel so gutted... 

I don’t want to judge anyone as we don’t know if her friends and family were offering help but were refused.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

havoc said:


> This is so sad. I couldn't stand her but I was gutted to hear it, nobody deserves to be driven to this.


 I've heard the name but to be honest could not put a face to it.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

catz4m8z said:


> Annoys me that the media are trying to blame her court case


Her management company have put out a statement blaming the CPS. A bit too quick and utterly tasteless to my mind but I'm sure her public will love it.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Very sad when someone takes their life.



Calvine said:


> I've heard the name but to be honest could not put a face to it.


To be honest I hadn't heard of her name until her court case, even then and up to now I didn't know idea who is was.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> Her management company have put out a statement blaming the CPS. A bit too quick and utterly tasteless to my mind but I'm sure her public will love it.


If Caroline Fleck got the same treatment form police and court as anyone would in such circumstances then I say there is one law for everyone.

Sadly because she was so in public eye this assault on her boyfriend caused her the loss of her job.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> Sadly because she was so in public eye this assault on her boyfriend caused her the loss of her job.


Yes, a job she chose. A celebrity lifestyle she chose. Under other circumstances I'd say a life in the spotlight she chose but it's out of control.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Warning- contains swearing.
> 
> Just awful and so sad
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...own-article-about-caroline-flack-from-website
> ...


The Daily Mail published 17 stories about her since the assault and 25 since NY. And on Twitter it's been called trial by social media... nope, trial by Media.

It's incredibly sad. I have no interest at all in these awful reality shows so she's not someone I know of well but to be so young and vibrant and to feel so much agony and pain is heartbreaking.

I've experienced in a tiny way, trolling in my city after I wrote about miscarriage and childlessness. It was horrendous and set back my recovery because the paper simply wanted a story, they did nothing to protect my mental health or moderate comments.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> It's incredibly sad. I have no interest at all in these awful reality shows so she's not someone I know of well but to be so young and vibrant and to feel so much agony and pain is heartbreaking.


She is the *third* suicide connected with the dreadful reality show she hosted. It's ITV's most successful production.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> The Daily Mail published 17 stories


 Have just looked at aforementioned ''newspaper'' to see who this lady was and they have (predictably) published a longish list of her (ex)-boyfriends, supposedly including Prince Harry.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

havoc said:


> She is the *third* suicide connected with the dreadful reality show she hosted. It's ITV's most successful production.


 That's what I read - wasn't Jeremy Kyle taken off after just one, I seem to recall?


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> Yes, a job she chose. A celebrity lifestyle she chose. Under other circumstances I'd say a life in the spotlight she chose but it's out of control.


I agree.
If she was in police she would be out as well.

I think anyone who loses a job , an OH and faces court trial will be in a bad place and celebs are no different.

Only people close to her know if she was offered enough support.

Glossy mags shown her as a beautiful role model then she fell out of grace.

Maybe all who read those should remind themselves that being famous and beautiful does not make you necessarily happier or immune.

I liked her a a TV persona, she was good at her job and I feel really sorry for her family and friends I have teenagers at home so Love Island is by default my TV of no choice.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

havoc said:


> She is the *third* suicide connected with the dreadful reality show she hosted. It's ITV's most successful production.


What a f****d up society we've become. money before mental health.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> What a f****d up society we've become. money before mental health.


There's a seemingly endless supply of wannabes prepared to be chewed up and spat out and huge audiences happy to watch it.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

There’s been this call to stop buying the newspapers who taunted her the most but the more people also share the headlines which act as click bait, the newspapers make money which increases figures which increases ad revenue. If there is to be a boycott people need to get more savvy about media. It’s not just print it’s links and online.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't really know who she is or what happened with media stories, etc but it is always sad that anyone feels they have no other choice but to take their own life.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

havoc said:


> There's a seemingly endless supply of wannabes prepared to be chewed up and spat out and huge audiences happy to watch it.


Yes, it seems so. No ideas who most of them are. But it seem that there must be scant support. It's all too mixed up.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> If Caroline Fleck got the same treatment form police and court as anyone would in such circumstances then I say there is one law for everyone.
> 
> Sadly because she was so in public eye this assault on her boyfriend caused her the loss of her job.


yes and others in the public eye have too though I think they were suspended until found guilty . But if she had been found guilty she should be sacked as otherwise it condones domestic violence. This is tragic and awful for her, her family and her boyfriend. I expect that not only being trolled but the fact her court case was due next month contributed to her death . 
With the outpouring of grief on twitter , there is danger of overlooking the victims of domestic violence. In 2018 , 173 people were killed in domestic violence-related homicides , the ones that aren't famous and are forgotten about .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49459674


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> yes and others in the public eye have too though I think they were suspended until found guilty . But if she had been found guilty she should be sacked as otherwise it condones domestic violence. This is tragic and awful for her, her family and her boyfriend. I expect that not only being trolled but the fact her court case was due next month contributed to her death .
> With the outpouring of grief on twitter , there is danger of overlooking the victims of domestic violence. In 2018 , 173 people were killed in domestic violence-related homicides , the ones that aren't famous and are forgotten about .
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49459674


I agree. As I said earlier, I don't know much about her, the alleged allegation or the court case but it was a shame to see some people already pointing the finger at who was to 'blame' for her death. IMO no-one knows the facts & it is unfair to try to find a scapegoat for this. Whilst there may have been contributing factors she was obviously very troubled & people should try to remember that this must be a horrible time for her friends & family rather than creating their own dramas.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> IMO no-one knows the facts & it is unfair to try to find a scapegoat for this.


It's her own 'management' who chose to do so. It's beyond belief that they decided to continue 'managing' her in the wake of her suicide. I have no idea if they are also connected to the show in any way but you have to wonder.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

There is a very moving tribute from Laura Whitmore on Radio 5 which I've linked below. I can't help think it needs to precede every thread here too. I've gone to bed feeling upset but this place and I'm sure but wish I was wrong, that I've caused upset to others. Be kind. And maybe walk away. I have done that elsewhere on PF today and respect that people have the right to do that. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p083kr4p


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I thought she was a dog person of some sort because Victoria Stillwell posted something about her in relation to the online attacks she (VS) has experienced.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Am not really clear, was her death related to online abuse then?


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> Am not really clear, was her death related to online abuse then?


A lot of people think the abuse played a large part in it. The Sun ran 4 different articles about her the day before she died. And none of them were complimentary. Piers Morgan has had a go at her quite often online and on TV. And of course each artice and Tweet carries a lot of nasty replies about how ugly and stupid and vacuous she was. And this is daily, pretty much.

And yes, you can say that she could have not used Twitter or any social media but the stuff can still get into your view. People talk about it, newspapers are still sold in shops. It can appear almost anywhere.

And social media can be a force for good. I use it a lot for local stuff like our FB community page and Nextdoor.com. Just because someone is famous, why should they have to avoid using something the rest of us can use without so much worry? And I don't follow anyone who is involved in GMB or Flack or Love Island or any of the reality shows or gossip sites but I still see this kind of abuse handed out. Most often to women. Men do come in for some stick but nothing on the level of what famous women get.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Billbailey said:


> A lot of people think the abuse played a large part in it. The Sun ran 4 different articles about her the day before she died. And none of them were complimentary. Piers Morgan has had a go at her quite often online and on TV. And of course each artice and Tweet carries a lot of nasty replies about how ugly and stupid and vacuous she was. And this is daily, pretty much.
> 
> And yes, you can say that she could have not used Twitter or any social media but the stuff can still get into your view. People talk about it, newspapers are still sold in shops. It can appear almost anywhere.
> 
> And social media can be a force for good. I use it a lot for local stuff like our FB community page and Nextdoor.com. Just because someone is famous, why should they have to avoid using something the rest of us can use without so much worry? And I don't follow anyone who is involved in GMB or Flack or Love Island or any of the reality shows or gossip sites but I still see this kind of abuse handed out. Most often to women. Men do come in for some stick but nothing on the level of what famous women get.


I don't really read the tabloid press so wasn't really aware of her or any articles. I agree in that constant criticism must get to people & those who are already fragile must be even more affected. Am not really sure what the answer is, stepping away is obviously best but I suppose for some people it's almost like an addiction …. just watching some people unable to put their phones down for more than a few minutes demonstrates this!


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Am not really clear, was her death related to online abuse then?


I have no idea, I was just scrolling FB and a post from VS popped up. I read the whole post and it had this line: "Caroline Flack killed herself because she was perfect fodder for the media to rip her apart and for trolls to smash her. Well they succeeded and she is dead." Which made me think Caroline Flack must be a dog trainer :Bag

Whole FB post:
https://www.facebook.com/VictoriaStilwell/photos/a.454242008824/10158513139738825/?type=3&theater

As an aside, am I the only one who finds it erm.... distasteful when people make a tragedy like this about them?


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I have no idea, I was just scrolling FB and a post from VS popped up. I read the whole post and it had this line: "Caroline Flack killed herself because she was perfect fodder for the media to rip her apart and for trolls to smash her. Well they succeeded and she is dead." Which made me think Caroline Flack must be a dog trainer :Bag
> 
> Whole FB post:
> https://www.facebook.com/VictoriaStilwell/photos/a.454242008824/10158513139738825/?type=3&theater
> ...


Wow!! I completely agree …. that is so self indulgent & at a time where no-one knows what really happened so why speculate.

Again I find this sort of weird behaviour rampant on social media. A couple of years ago a man who attended training days at my IGP club killed himself, it was horrible to think about & was upsetting even for me who barely knew him but there was one person (again who barely knew him) posted it all over their social media account & wrote how their heart was breaking, he was such a dear friend, etc …. I was shocked that someone could take such a tragic event & turn it in to an attention seeking post on social media.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

This is a set of Tweets from Secret Barrister. He or she oftens Tweet some sense about legal issues when it seems everyone else on Twitter is losing their minds,


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228982815024467969
As is said on the thread, the problem with social media is that it reduces everyone to either a villian or a hero. Human relationships are far more complicated than that. There is a domestic abuse charge at the centre of this and that in itself can be a situation fraught with complexity and problems. It's not always about monsters and victims. Unless you're posting about it on Twitter or flapping your gums on GMB.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

Plus what is said on social and mainstream media affect how other people see you. Famous people are people firstly. They meet others, they have work to do, they go out. And if total strangers treat you like you're a brainless amoral bint because that's what the media say you are, then that has to affect your mental health. 

You only have to look at the Harry and Meghan thread on here to see how many people made up their minds about Meghan without having met her. And the thread on here was pretty kind compared to what happened on Twitter. 

It's easy to forget they are real people. I've done it myself. Started thinking of someone's real life as a soap opera.


----------



## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Another problem with social media is that people don't get prosecuted as often as they should for hate crime, contempt of court, malicious communications, incitement to violence, and cyberbullying. There is no incentive for the owners and operatives to control their content, and it would appear, as with the Sun, people like reading it and will pay for it to continue.


----------



## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> I have no idea, I was just scrolling FB and a post from VS popped up. I read the whole post and it had this line: "Caroline Flack killed herself because she was perfect fodder for the media to rip her apart and for trolls to smash her. Well they succeeded and she is dead." Which made me think Caroline Flack must be a dog trainer :Bag
> 
> Whole FB post:
> https://www.facebook.com/VictoriaStilwell/photos/a.454242008824/10158513139738825/?type=3&theater
> ...


Yeah it is a bit distasteful, especially so soon after her death. I get the point that VS is trying to make, but really she shouldn't have referenced Caroline here at all.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I really hope her boyfriend doesn't harm himself or blame himself. He is a victim in this .


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Billbailey said:


> And yes, you can say that she could have not used Twitter or any social media but the stuff can still get into your view.


Celebs can be contracted in to tweeting (or whatever).


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

They use social media and the press to their advantage, then it turns on them. I feel for her ex-boyfriend, family and friends, but as they say "live by the sword die by the sword", you only have to remember Princess Diana. 

Still something that should never have happened.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Calvine said:


> That's what I read - wasn't Jeremy Kyle taken off after just one, I seem to recall?


As is being spread all over twitter 
i find it deeply sad that this lady is having so much speculation surrounding her death, the same amount of speculation that surrounded her in life
Everyone talks as if they knew her deeply, but they didnt, they knew her media personality, outside of her friends and family no one knew who Caroline Flack really was
its sad, however she died, its another youmg life lost, and, rather than join the gossip Isend my empathy and sympathy to her family
not that theyll ever see it, nor care who i was if they did, sympathy and empathy wont bring her back and, tbf, thats all they want right this minute


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

Happy Paws2 said:


> They use social media and the press to their advantage, then it turns on them. I feel for her ex-boyfriend, family and friends, but as they say "live by the sword die by the sword", you only have to remember Princess Diana.
> 
> Still something that should never have happened.


I don't believe that people should be hounded to their deaths just because lots of people know their name. I use social media a lot. I don't believe it's such an evil thing to do that I deserve to be driven to commit suicide.


----------



## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> I have no idea, I was just scrolling FB and a post from VS popped up. I read the whole post and it had this line: "Caroline Flack killed herself because she was perfect fodder for the media to rip her apart and for trolls to smash her. Well they succeeded and she is dead." Which made me think Caroline Flack must be a dog trainer :Bag
> 
> Whole FB post:
> https://www.facebook.com/VictoriaStilwell/photos/a.454242008824/10158513139738825/?type=3&theater
> ...


Wow! That's a very strong turn of phrase, 'killed herself because...' I suspect having faced dark thoughts, Caroline herself wasn't necessarily clear on the reasons never mind a dog trainer.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Billbailey said:


> I don't believe that people should be hounded to their deaths just because lots of people know their name. I use social media a lot. * I don't believe it's such an evil thing to do that I deserve to be driven to commit suicide*.


True....... but that's what can happen to the famous, unfortunately the media love you one minute and one mistake how ever small and they turn on you like a pack of wolves.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

I know. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing. No-one should have to 'die by the sword' just because they are on Twitter. The media need to stop behaving like a pack of wolves, don't they?


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Billbailey said:


> I know. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing. No-one should have to 'die by the sword' just because they are on Twitter. The media need to stop behaving like a pack of wolves, don't they?


thing is, theyll do it, whilst the joe in the street continues to circle just outside the pack, to pick up the titilating scraps they leave behind
this is why i dont by any magazines or papers any more
and
took a long look at social media sites and pages i belong to, for what not only were they doing to me, but for me too
I realised that many were only destroying my chi, and feeding my sa/si chi, so out they went
i dont want them
i dont need them
I chose to feed my chi instead and feel better for it

many people live for the fact that
no matter how bad their life is,
theres someone out there thats worse off,
thats what makes them happy and able to get out of bed in the morning
and
thats what causes the popularity of reading about anothers downfall

if paps are wolves
then the readers are the vultures

edit cos i realised id left some words out, which made the sentence nonsensical


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Billbailey said:


> I know. But that doesn't mean it's a good thing. No-one should have to 'die by the sword' just because they are on Twitter. The media need to stop behaving like a pack of wolves, don't they?


There was a quote by a YouTube oncer about all this social media hounding, and bullying that goes on, that he stated that none of us 'have clean hands' which I am sure is true.

This may be a high profile case, but it's certainly not the first media has hounded people and caused mental health problems.. There are possibly many but not big name stars, not large enough people to know but media still picks up stories and runs with it. A week in the papers, could destroy anyone's life and their family, but to media its last weeks news. Not always to social media users though.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

> if paps are wolves then the readers are the vultures


I agree, but that's not the point I was making.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> t
> this is why i dont by any magazines or papers any more
> l


I can't remember the last time I brought a magazine, the last paper was on holiday in the South of France, June 2008.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

I absolutely detest the phrase "they knew what they're going in for". WTAF? She became a presenter to a tv show. At some point this person sat her school exams, at some point this person was trying to decide what they will do about higher education, they chose their first ever job, they got their second job... a couple of decades later and various life choices later they are on TV, with thousands of people knowing their name. Along all of this social media was created and opened up the endless possibilities of how sad, bitter people can lash out after experiencing some sort of failures in their own lives. Just because she ended up in a career that put her in the public eye and open to criticism and scrutiny from absolute strangers, does not mean that she deserved it. I'm sure there were plenty of reasons for her career choice. Maybe she was crap at academic stuff and through various job experiences got to this position, maybe she always wanted to be on tv and made conscious and well thought out choices to get there. Maybe she was just a pretty girl in school and wanted to be popular and on TV. The bottom line is that no one deserves the abuse on social media. They can be a tv presenter, a reality tv participant, a singer, a politician, a porn star - no one should have to deal with that crap just because "they knew what they're going in for" or "that's part of the job". If someone started saying that about the homeless on the street, most people would go crazy. That should apply following this logic, right? If you don't want to be sitting on the street wet and cold, getting ignored by thousands of passing people every single day, starve... well, you should've made a different life choice then. You knew what you're going in for when you were just teetering on the verge of becoming unemployed and then homeless.
Doctors and nurses shouldn't be complaining about their long hours and pay - they knew what they're going in for. Teachers not happy about their pay and increasing work load? Should've chosen a different career. Actresses and singers unhappy about their bodies and personal lives judged by strangers? Should've chosen accountancy. Vets one of the professions with highest rates of suicides? Should've thought before choosing the jobs.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

It’s very sad and tragic that someone would feel so desperate and unhappy that they would take their own life 

It’s also a very strange situation given the fact police were called by the boyfriend who then said she wasn’t guilty of the charge. Now he’s acting like her champion - all very odd.

I’m not sure that the show Love Island can be held responsible though as this situation occurred in her private life. She was the presenter, not a participant. Given the charge it wasn’t unreasonable to replace her.

The Press, Media and internet hounding and abuse will have contributed to her stress and anxiety though and that definitely needs controlling.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Billbailey said:


> I agree, but that's not the point I was making.


So?
you asked a question at the end of your statement
I addressed that question, in my reply, quite clearly, not your statement
Don't like my post, cos it wasn't the point you were making, but a reply to the question you made
Report it


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> I absolutely detest the phrase "they knew what they're going in for". WTAF? She became a presenter to a tv show. At some point this person sat her school exams, at some point this person was trying to decide what they will do about higher education, they chose their first ever job, they got their second job... a couple of decades later and various life choices later they are on TV, with thousands of people knowing their name. Along all of this social media was created and opened up the endless possibilities of how sad, bitter people can lash out after experiencing some sort of failures in their own lives. Just because she ended up in a career that put her in the public eye and open to criticism and scrutiny from absolute strangers, does not mean that she deserved it. I'm sure there were plenty of reasons for her career choice. Maybe she was crap at academic stuff and through various job experiences got to this position, maybe she always wanted to be on tv and made conscious and well thought out choices to get there. Maybe she was just a pretty girl in school and wanted to be popular and on TV. The bottom line is that no one deserves the abuse on social media. They can be a tv presenter, a reality tv participant, a singer, a politician, a porn star - no one should have to deal with that crap just because "they knew what they're going in for" or "that's part of the job". If someone started saying that about the homeless on the street, most people would go crazy. That should apply following this logic, right? If you don't want to be sitting on the street wet and cold, getting ignored by thousands of passing people every single day, starve... well, you should've made a different life choice then. You knew what you're going in for when you were just teetering on the verge of becoming unemployed and then homeless.
> Doctors and nurses shouldn't be complaining about their long hours and pay - they knew what they're going in for. Teachers not happy about their pay and increasing work load? Should've chosen a different career. Actresses and singers unhappy about their bodies and personal lives judged by strangers? Should've chosen accountancy. Vets one of the professions with highest rates of suicides? Should've thought before choosing the jobs.


I agree to an extent but so many celebrities use the media for their gains yet can't cope when the news regarding them isn't so positive. Whilst I am not condoning the media constantly hounding someone I do think that they can't have their cake & eat it. I know that sounds harsh but IMO these people lead very privileged lifestyles so must be aware of the pitfalls of posting so much of their private lives on social media or learn how to use it better.

Also, I am confused as to why there seems to be blame being placed for Caroline Flack's death on either bullying on social media, negative stories in the tabloid press or the CPS who were going to press charges regarding the assault case …. no-one knows the real cause of her death but it does seem as if she was troubled for some time (again only going what has been written about her).

This morning I have seen so many ''be kind' memes on social media & tbh I find it a bit nauseating. Maybe that's me being a cynical, old [email protected] but why not just be kinder to people, just be nicer rather than posting on social media ….


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> As is being spread all over twitter
> 
> What is being spread on Twitter? The only Twitter quotes I see are on this forum so not sure why I was quoted.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

For no reason other than it had the piece that I wanted to use in
No nefarious reasons, 
x my heart:Kiss


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> This morning I have seen so many ''be kind' memes on social media & tbh I find it a bit nauseating. Maybe that's me being a cynical, old [email protected] but why not just be kinder to people, just be nicer rather than posting on social media ….


I'll be a cynical old [email protected] along with you, I feel the same way.
One - as if posting a 'be kind' meme is going to change the behavior of others, and two, as has been said so many times, MH issues are far more complex than 'someone was mean on social media' there is much more to it than that, and diminishing what happened here to one single thing doesn't help bring better understanding and compassion around MH issues.

The reality is, there have always been tremendous pressures on people, social media is not the first nor the worst we have faced as humans. Everyone copes differently, some not as well as others. You help the individual not coping well, 'cause if it weren't social media, it would be something else pushing them over the edge.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I'll be a cynical old [email protected] along with you, I feel the same way.
> One - as if posting a 'be kind' meme is going to change the behavior of others, and two, as has been said so many times, MH issues are far more complex than 'someone was mean on social media' there is much more to it than that, and diminishing what happened here to one single thing doesn't help bring better understanding and compassion around MH issues.
> 
> The reality is, there have always been tremendous pressures on people, social media is not the first nor the worst we have faces as humans. Everyone copes differently, some not as well as others. You help the individual not coping well, 'cause if it weren't social media, it would be something else pushing them over the edge.


Oh definitely, I think by posting a bloody meme some people feel they are 'doing something' which IMO they aren't …. especially when one of my FB friends posted a similar image & I nearly spat my tea out as she's said some incredibly bitchy things (to me) recently.

I think that again it's another example of a blame culture we have, find a scapegoat, put all the blame on them & then everyone else can relax when in reality we all know it doesn't work like that.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> It's very sad and tragic that someone would feel so desperate and unhappy that they would take their own life
> 
> It's also a very strange situation given the fact police were called by the boyfriend who then said she wasn't guilty of the charge. Now he's acting like her champion - all very odd.
> 
> .


Its classic victim behaviour , that's why the law was changed as many victims refused to prosecute and often went back to their partners.
Caroline denied it too .
As there isn't going to be a trial , I guess we will never know the truth.
If this happened with an older man and a young woman victim , I bet the view would be different and Me Too hash tags flying around.

It seems her previous ex sent an ambulance to her house the year before as he was worried she had overdosed. Her management said he did it out of spite. They had a toxic relationship too.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

shadowmare said:


> I absolutely detest the phrase "they knew what they're going in for". WTAF? She became a presenter to a tv show. At some point this person sat her school exams, at some point this person was trying to decide what they will do about higher education, they chose their first ever job, they got their second job... a couple of decades later and various life choices later they are on TV, with thousands of people knowing their name. Along all of this social media was created and opened up the endless possibilities of how sad, bitter people can lash out after experiencing some sort of failures in their own lives. Just because she ended up in a career that put her in the public eye and open to criticism and scrutiny from absolute strangers, does not mean that she deserved it. I'm sure there were plenty of reasons for her career choice. Maybe she was crap at academic stuff and through various job experiences got to this position, maybe she always wanted to be on tv and made conscious and well thought out choices to get there. Maybe she was just a pretty girl in school and wanted to be popular and on TV. The bottom line is that no one deserves the abuse on social media. They can be a tv presenter, a reality tv participant, a singer, a politician, a porn star - no one should have to deal with that crap just because "they knew what they're going in for" or "that's part of the job". If someone started saying that about the homeless on the street, most people would go crazy. That should apply following this logic, right? If you don't want to be sitting on the street wet and cold, getting ignored by thousands of passing people every single day, starve... well, you should've made a different life choice then. You knew what you're going in for when you were just teetering on the verge of becoming unemployed and then homeless.
> Doctors and nurses shouldn't be complaining about their long hours and pay - they knew what they're going in for. Teachers not happy about their pay and increasing work load? Should've chosen a different career. Actresses and singers unhappy about their bodies and personal lives judged by strangers? Should've chosen accountancy. Vets one of the professions with highest rates of suicides? Should've thought before choosing the jobs.


Totally agree with this. The abuse people get on SM is totally over the top a lot of the time.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

And of course every “celebrity” who ever knew her has to post something more dramatically “heartfelt” than the previous one.

I don’t understand the need for the public outpourings tbh.

I don’t do Facebook and the like so when I lost my parents it was all very private and personal.

People who knew us sent a condolence card or popped round.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Billbailey said:


> Totally agree with this. The abuse people get on SM is totally over the top a lot of the time.


Not to diminish the horrible behavior on social media, because it is an issue. However, people have been being awful to each other forever. 
We talk about teens growing up in a culture of social media, but can you imagine for example the stress and trauma of growing up in the US in the south as a black person? Of raising a child in that environment? That's just one example. I also think about stories like Angela's Ashes, and the stress and trauma of growing up like that, living that life. 
I purposefully chose those more recent examples, because those who survived that childhood are still alive today. There are of course far worse examples throughout history - not that it's a competition or anything! 

It doesn't make it right that people are awful on social media, and of course we should be cognizant of our behavior and strive to do better. But for me, it helps put it in perspective. It's not the worst thing we humans have had to deal with. So blaming MH issues on social media or regular media seems a bit like a cop-out.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I honestly believe my peers and I were brought up to be much more robust tbh.

I’ve seen it with some of my son’s peers, whose parents manage every aspect of their lives and protect them from any conflict or minor difficulty.

Unfortunately, I think it can sometimes leave people unable to cope with the “big bad World” out there.

Of course, when we were growing up we were safe from the outside World at home. Now, people can be under the cosh 24/7.

It sounds easy to say “don’t engage” but we know that’s not so easy for some.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> I honestly believe my peers and I were brought up to be much more robust tbh.


Perhaps  
Or perhaps we just have some unhealthy coping mechanisms 

But I know what you mean. I think it's the inevitable pendulum swing from latchkey kids raising themselves, to helicopter parenting. 
I think we've become confused, and in wanting to protect our kids from all the 'dangers' of the world, we've forgotten to show them how to actually live in the world.

Or put another way, my mom was one of those 'throw them in the pool, they'll learn to swim or sink' types. Whereas now, a lot of parents have the mentality more to get rid of all pools lest a child fall in and drown.

There has to be a happy medium between 'sink or swim' and 'ban all pools'. And there is. Teach children to swim. Support and supervise them while they're learning, help them hone their skills, and eventually they will learn to navigate the water on their own. 
The problem is, teaching, supporting, and supervising sounds a lot like work, and time and effort. And we all know how everyone feels about that 

As an aside, I remember it was on here that I casually mentioned on of my kids climbing a tree and several posters being horrified that I allowed them to climb trees and run around barefoot. I seriously never occurred to me that tree climbing was a bad idea for children. Barefoot has its hazards, I do know that, but the tetanus shot is a wonderful thing  
Now I'll have to go back and see if I can find that thread


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> The reality is, there have always been tremendous pressures on people, social media is not the first nor the worst we have faced as humans. Everyone copes differently, some not as well as others. You help the individual not coping well, 'cause if it weren't social media, it would be something else pushing them over the edge.


There is a flip side to that coin, though - it's a LOT easier to be nasty to somebody on social media than it would be face to face, and for plenty of others to jump on the bandwaggon for no other reason than having a laugh. Many of them will never think twice about the damage they could do. And, of course, you can target anyone you like, plus keep up the abuse 24/7 so the victim gets no respite.

I saw a video recently where people took things said in social media posts and used them in real life in front of real people. It makes for very uncomfortable viewing, and I'm not exactly a shrinking violet:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1016495455157470



The most interesting thing is that when faced with such hateful vitriol in real life, people intervene as they find it unacceptable. On social media, though, people scroll on by...


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> There is a flip side to that coin, though - it's a LOT easier to be nasty to somebody on social media than it would be face to face


Easier? Perhaps. But some people much prefer being nasty in person than on social media. On social media they have their persona to maintain. Plus in person, it's their word against yours. No record of the behavior. I know these people - they can be incredibly calculated and cruel. And they do it in private where no one but you sees it. And you look like a loon accusing them of anything.



Jesthar said:


> And, of course, you can target anyone you like, plus keep up the abuse 24/7 so the victim gets no respite.


I don't understand this. Maybe I just don't get it, but on social media, can't you just close the app, unfollow the poster, block the poster. You don't have to see it. You really and truly can simply walk away. 
A child growing up with abusive parents is more of what I think of when I think of no respite. A child can't walk out of the house and leave, can't close the app or get off of social media. They're stuck. And social services is really hit or miss. That would be a better example IMO of 'no respite'. Social media is easy enough to unplug.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> There is a flip side to that coin, though - it's a LOT easier to be nasty to somebody on social media than it would be face to face, and for plenty of others to jump on the bandwaggon for no other reason than having a laugh. Many of them will never think twice about the damage they could do. And, of course, you can target anyone you like, plus keep up the abuse 24/7 so the victim gets no respite.
> 
> I saw a video recently where people took things said in social media posts and used them in real life in front of real people. It makes for very uncomfortable viewing, and I'm not exactly a shrinking violet:
> 
> ...


Oh ick, I just watched that video. Sorry, found it to be manipulative BS. The abusers and victims were actors, the whole thing was set-up to shock and upset people. Emotional vampirism at it's best. Not a fan, sorry 

If anything it shows people are in essence good, kind, and will stand up for each other, and don't tolerate bullying.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Regarding bulling on social media I do realise it goes on, some bullying is sickening & relentless showing just how vile some people can really be but it easier to step away sometimes much more so than in RL. Also it seems some people confuse bullying or trolling with others just disagreeing with them or having a different opinion.

I had this the other night, I had a different opinion to someone who couldn't take it & despite me giving facts to back up my view he swore at me, became very aggressive then pm'ed me telling me women like me deserved a punch …. oh he was an ethical vegan btw  

So I forwarded his messages to the group admin & to his GF & a couple of his friends on his list


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Also it seems some people confuse bullying or trolling with others just disagreeing with them or having a different opinion.


Definitely. We seems to bandy the term bullying about but not every unpleasant interaction is bullying.

Disagreement is not bullying. 
Rudeness and lack of social skills is not bullying. 
Name calling is not bullying.

Bullying is repeated threatening behavior intending a specific outcome usually including an imbalance of power.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Easier? Perhaps. But some people much prefer being nasty in person than on social media. On social media they have their persona to maintain. Plus in person, it's their word against yours. No record of the behavior. I know these people - they can be incredibly calculated and cruel. And they do it in private where no one but you sees it. And you look like a loon accusing them of anything.


Some people, yes - we all know a few of them. But there are far, far more keyboard warriors. Plenty of those will create separate online persona for their bullying pleasure - for example, why do you think there is a ban on multiple accounts on Pet Forums?



O2.0 said:


> I don't understand this. Maybe I just don't get it, but on social media, can't you just close the app, unfollow the poster, block the poster. You don't have to see it. You really and truly can simply walk away.


Not always. Living in the modern world with no mobile phone, internet or e-mail is getting hard. Homework, job applications, family updates etc. - pretty much everything is online now. Avoiding socal media is potentially easier, but not always an option if you run a business or are well known publicly - in which case the bottom-feeder rags are also in play. Yes, you can block and ban, but if someone is halfway determined it quickly becomes a whack-a-mole game - one where they (and often their cohorts) are having fun, but you are not. Ever asked the mods here how often banned posters try and reincarnate themselves? I'll guarantee you it's far more than ever make it to posting before being discovered.

If the bully is anonymous (a very easy thing to achieve online), then there is an added complications. It's one thing when you know who your bullies are and who you need to be careful around. It's quite another when you have no idea if some of the people around you in real life could also be your online tormenters.

Besides, why should it be the responsibility of the victim to avoid all scenarios in which they could be being bullied? Since when did 'you showed your face in public and are therefore a legitimate target' become acceptable line reasoning?

And even if you DO log off, your family and friends who are still online are still going to see all the abuse. As, potentially, are any employers - many of them now search the internet for details about a prospective employee before hiring. Plus,you still know all the vitriol is right there waiting for you if you ever do log back in.



O2.0 said:


> A child growing up with abusive parents is more of what I think of when I think of no respite. A child can't walk out of the house and leave, can't close the app or get off of social media. They're stuck. And social services is really hit or miss. That would be a better example IMO of 'no respite'. Social media is easy enough to unplug.


Horrible as having abusive parents is, relative privation is a poor choice of debating argument in any scenario.



O2.0 said:


> Oh ick, I just watched that video. Sorry, found it to be manipulative BS. The abusers and victims were actors, the whole thing was set-up to shock and upset people. Emotional vampirism at it's best. Not a fan, sorry
> 
> If anything it shows people are in essence good, kind, and will stand up for each other, and don't tolerate bullying.


Then you missed the point - which was simply to show that people won't tolerate things being said face to face that they would scroll past without thinking twice on social media - and that this should not be the case.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Definitely. We seems to bandy the term bullying about but not every unpleasant interaction is bullying.
> 
> Disagreement is not bullying.
> Rudeness and lack of social skills is not bullying.
> ...


If someone feels bulied, then they are being bullied
Whether its name calling, racial, emotional, physical, sexual, psychological etc is irrelevant
If someone is getting gratification, from making another feel unhappy or demeaned, even once
Then it is bullying, full stop.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Definitely. We seems to bandy the term bullying about but not every unpleasant interaction is bullying.
> 
> Disagreement is not bullying.


Correct - though disagreement should be respectful.


O2.0 said:


> Rudeness and lack of social skills is not bullying.


Only correct when unintentional.


O2.0 said:


> Name calling is not bullying.


Incorrect. Name calling is one of the most insidious and harmful forms of bullying, and all the more so because so many downplay it. it is also the root from which many other forms of bullying grow.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> Some people, yes - we all know a few of them. But there are far, far more keyboard warriors. Plenty of those will create separate online persona for their bullying pleasure - for example, why do you think there is a ban on multiple accounts on Pet Forums?
> 
> Not always. Living in the modern world with no mobile phone, internet or e-mail is getting hard. Homework, job applications, family updates etc. - pretty much everything is online now. Avoiding socal media is potentially easier, but not always an option if you run a business or are well known publicly - in which case the bottom-feeder rags are also in play. Yes, you can block and ban, but if someone is halfway determined it quickly becomes a whack-a-mole game - one where they (and often their cohorts) are having fun, but you are not. Ever asked the mods here how often banned posters try and reincarnate themselves? I'll guarantee you it's far more than ever make it to posting before being discovered.
> 
> ...


Oh wow, that's a lot of points made there  
A lot of things you're responding to I didn't actually say. I was simply pointing to other scenarios. I certainly never said showing your face in public makes it acceptable to be a target.

Though I will dip my toe in to the unpopular opinion lake and say that sometimes those who cry bully are engaging as much as the supposed 'attacker' - online especially. You see it here all the time, someone gets a strong disagreement from a few posters, then gets all butthurt and cries bully. I repeat being disagreed with, even repeatedly, is not bullying. 
And no, it's not okay to post unkindly, but nor is it okay to bait and bait and bait and then play the victim when someone finally does snap. Neither is okay. Though it makes for fascinating people watching from a behavior nerd perspective.

But the reality is that human interactions are often far more nuanced and complicated. It's rarely a clear, innocent victim and mean bad-guy. Just look at most abuser/victim relationships. The victim won't leave even when offered the means and support to do so, because of complicated psychological and emotional processes. Or if they do leave, just end up with another abusive partner. Some abusers really do feel terrible and really do want to change but maybe it's addiction or again complicated behavior and mental health issues keep them stuck in the cycle.

I'm not arguing any of your points BTW, really I'm just trying to have a conversation about the nuances of human behavior, what we cope with, what we don't, how we deal with each other.

And I don't think I missed the point of the video, I can still find it emotionally manipulative even if I understood what it was trying to say. 
Ironically I have often stood up for fellow posters when I felt another poster was out of line with their comment to them, and got soundly told off for doing so, and, you guessed it, labeled a bully. 
Other times I report posts without engaging at all. Just because you don't actually see someone doing or saying something doesn't mean they're passively scrolling past.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jesthar said:


> Incorrect. Name calling is one of the most insidious and harmful forms of bullying, and all the more so because so many downplay it. it is also the root from which many other forms of bullying grow.


Well then I bully my dog because I call him a jerkface ******* all the time.

I think context matters.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Well then I bully my dog because I call him a jerkface ******* all the time.
> 
> I think context matters.


Oh yes, context can definitely matter! You should hear what I call the cats... 

However, whilst I was mainly referencing non-jocular namecalling as the harmful scenario, it should also be remembered that even friendly joshing can have a negative effect in some circumstances, and there's no shame is saying 'please don't call me that, I don't like it'


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> If someone feels bulied, then they are being bullied
> Whether its name calling, racial, emotional, physical, sexual, psychological etc is irrelevant
> If someone is getting gratification, from making another feel unhappy or demeaned, even once
> Then it is bullying, full stop.


I disagree …. just because some feels they are being bullied does not mean they are. How many times have we heard that statement thrown about on here from someone who receives an opinion they don't like?

People are using that term far too freely IMO. Just because someone is upset by a comment does not mean they are being bullied, sometimes people need to realise that getting upset or frustrated or angry or whatever at others opinions of them/politics/dog training/whatever is just part of life.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Easier? Perhaps. But some people much prefer being nasty in person than on social media. On social media they have their persona to maintain. Plus in person, it's their word against yours. No record of the behavior. I know these people - they can be incredibly calculated and cruel. And they do it in private where no one but you sees it. And you look like a loon accusing them of anything.
> 
> I don't understand this. Maybe I just don't get it, but on social media, can't you just close the app, unfollow the poster, block the poster. You don't have to see it. You really and truly can simply walk away.
> A child growing up with abusive parents is more of what I think of when I think of no respite. A child can't walk out of the house and leave, can't close the app or get off of social media. They're stuck. And social services is really hit or miss. That would be a better example IMO of 'no respite'. Social media is easy enough to unplug.


Outside of your home there's a limit to how many people can direct abuse towards you. Social media allows you to be not only abused by more people than you'd meet on the street in your lifetime, but also the abuse continues even if you delete all of your accounts. There was a case where a bunch of school kids turned a photo of their disabled classmate into a meme and shared it far and wide. How many people could make fun of her in her local community throughout her childhood and adult life? How many people could make fun of her by sharing, editing, coming up with new memes across the world? 
There's a major difference between growing up 30 years ago and today. Same with being a celebrity these days and back in the era of Marilyn Monroe. Trying to directly compare these things is like comparing oranges and apples.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I disagree …. just because some feels they are being bullied does not mean they are. How many times have we heard that statement thrown about on here from someo
> ne who receives an opinion they don't like?
> 
> People are using that term far too freely IMO. Just because someone is upset by a comment does not mean they are being bullied, sometimes people need to realise that getting upset or frustrated or angry or whatever at others opinions of them/politics/dog training/whatever is just part of life.


totally agree, others may feel they are over egging the pudding, being too touchy, or just being a snowflake
but
if *they* _feel_ bullied, we have to accept thats how *they* feel that its *their *opinion
and surely, despite how _*we*_ view it, *their* feelings and* their* opinion should be recognised
not everyone lives in our neurotypical world,
so we cant always view *their *feelings and opinions in a neurotypical way


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> totally agree, others may feel they are over egging the pudding, being too touchy, or just being a snowflake
> but
> if *they* _feel_ bullied, we have to accept thats how *they* feel that its *their *opinion
> and surely, despite how _*we*_ view it, *their* feelings and* their* opinion should be recognised
> ...


They might feel that way but it still doesn't mean they are being bullied though. If someone posts on here about breeding their unhealth tested mutt to another unhealth tested mutt most people would advise them not to & they would be irresponsible to continue with their plan.

Cue …. "Stop picking on me" posts from them & accusations of bullying. They may well feel like this & I agree that is their opinion & how they might feel but it still doesn't mean that is what happening.

No one should feel they can't voice an opinion simply because someone might get upset by it


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

It might sound cruel, a famous person has committed suicide and I feel for everyone involved, but three days on, do we really need it all over the news.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

mrs phas said:


> totally agree, others may feel they are over egging the pudding, being too touchy, or just being a snowflake
> but
> if *they* _feel_ bullied, we have to accept thats how *they* feel that its *their *opinion
> and surely, despite how _*we*_ view it, *their* feelings and* their* opinion should be recognised
> ...


This is where you educate these people to live in society. It's huge part of their education, as well as others who are not classed as having ASC. There may be meltdowns, they may struggle but its education and good guidance that helps. They live in society after all


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Well then I bully my dog because I call him a jerkface ******* all the time.
> 
> I think context matters.


Oh you meanie ! The thing is he doesnt know what that means . Most humans would know its an insult. Actually I cant work out what the starred word is . :Hilarious

This is just general stuff now , not aimed at any particular post in particular . I think I mentioned this recently about how Twitter has changed. The abuse *is *awful now. The use of swear words including the C word now seems to be acceptable . There's a lot of I hope you die , kill yourself . It needs much more censoring. You can report someone and block them but you have to read the Tweets first .

Don't get me started on the Woke Brigade


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> They might feel that way but it still doesn't mean they are being bullied though. If someone posts on here about breeding their unhealth tested mutt to another unhealth tested mutt most people would advise them not to & they would be irresponsible to continue with their plan.
> 
> Cue …. "Stop picking on me" posts from them & accusations of bullying. They may well feel like this & I agree that is their opinion & how they might feel but it still doesn't mean that is what happening.
> 
> No one should feel they can't voice an opinion simply because someone might get upset by it


you missed my point
we dont have to recognise or agree that they *are *being bullied
but, hopefully, being compassionate people
we can understand that, that is how they* feel*
because they are not getting the answers they want, from anyone

like those who feel like we're a huge clique
hardly any of use know each other outside of here
and some live so far away that theyre on the otherside of the world
but
a newcomer may feel theyre being bullied by a clique, simply because they are new

the same with those that think we're all pedigree snobs and hate mongrels
not knowing, or understanding, can leave a new comer feeling bullied, when its just a case of we know what the answers will be and by whom

but i totally agree
*being* bullied
and
*feeling* bullied
are two different things completely
yet its the feeling that often does the damage, simply because, the fact that everyone is telling you x, whilst you believe y, leaves you thinking that no one cares
feeling that no one cares, is the first step on a very slippery slope

so,
to bring it back to Caroline Flack,
the very fact that everyone,
it seemed,
including the cps,
believed she was a bad person and assaulted her boyfriend,
and
the fact that her boyfriend was forbidden to make contact as ( i think ive understod correctly) he wouldve been a witness for the prosecuton
may have left her feeling that no one cared,
and
as i said above,
thats the first step on a very slippery slope

( although, obviously everything is supposition at this time, no one official has come out and said it was suicide or whatever)


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

mrs phas said:


> If someone feels bulied, then they are being bullied


One person's definition can be different from another. I've known someone claim they're being bullied for being asked to do their job. I can't know if they honestly 'felt' they were being bullied or if they were just a bone idle piece of garbage. In the legal world there was a wonderful test, it used to be known as 'the man on the Clapham omnibus'. It relied on determining what an ordinary, decent 'man' would think ( yeah I know but I did say it's old). If a busload of reasonable people don't think it's bullying then you do have to question the one who thinks it is.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

lullabydream said:


> This is where you educate these people to live in society. It's huge part of their education, as well as others who are not classed as having ASC. There may be meltdowns, they may struggle but its education and good guidance that helps. They live in society after all


I wasnt necessarily pointing the finger towards ASC, even though i used the word neurotypical
theres lots of different conditions, unassociated with ASC, that can cause misunderstandings between what is said and what is meant
strokes, dementia and parkinsons being just three


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

havoc said:


> One person's definition can be different from another. I've known someone claim they're being bullied for being asked to do their job. I can't know if they honestly 'felt' they were being bullied or if they were just a bone idle piece of garbage. In the legal world there was a wonderful test, it used to be known as 'the man on the Clapham omnibus'. It relied on determining what an ordinary, decent 'man' would think ( yeah I know but I did say it's old). If a busload of reasonable people don't think it's bullying then you do have to question the one who thinks it is.


when i used to work for the CC, reviewing school admissions and appeals, the 'man on the clapham omnibus' was our ever present friend in deternmining reasonableness on policies


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Happy Paws2 said:


> It might sound cruel, a famous person has committed suicide and I feel for everyone involved, but three days on, do we really need it all over the news.


The incessant "newsworthiness" of such a tragedy is as distasteful as the original persecution imo


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> totally agree, others may feel they are over egging the pudding, being too touchy, or just being a snowflake
> but
> if *they* _feel_ bullied, we have to accept thats how *they* feel that its *their *opinion
> and surely, despite how _*we*_ view it, *their* feelings and* their* opinion should be recognised
> ...


Saying that people might say they are bullied in sort of " I said it first " situation- to discredit workmate for example.
It is not only the matter of being subjective etc...
If CF was treated in law as anyone else, then that is fair.
In case of domestic abuse the victim can be very easily manipulated to withdraw complaint, the victim still can have feelings for the perpetrator or be made to feel that they deserved it etc...

That is my private opinion that maybe if she pleaded guilty, apologised etc and got it over and done with without trial it would have been less stressful.

When I used to work for the court I used to explain the defendants what happens if they plead guilty and what if they plead not guilty.

Pleading not guilty meant more waiting, more stress and time wasted.
Worth it obviously if not guilty or at least no solid evidence.

I am just sorry that she was on her own in such a dark time. I don't know why , her family and friends might offered to help.
I don't blame this show or any other show she presented for problems in her relationship.

TV presenters have their TV persona , carefully created , it is a product sold and people who buy it feel sort of cheated of their idol is flawed or just different to what they were made to believe they are.

Drama sells.

Regardless of being a celebrity or not everyone has their bad times and should admit it when they cannot cope.

It was a needless waste of young life and I am truly sorry.


----------



## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm conflicted over all of this and probably won't word this well, and it is very sad that someone has killed themselves and left a family grieving, but if feels like she is almost being held up as a saint now she has died, and whilst the press coverage hasn't been great before and after, there must be a market for it, as in people must be clicking on the stories and commenting as I'm guessing it's all down to the click rate on these things so if no interest then the stories drop down the page and off into the ether never to be reported on again.

I'm not on twitter or instagram and don't really have an interest in them, but the incessant postings by famous people and 'influencers' showing off their lifestyles, their carefree lives, all the excess and trappings of fame, the hugely photoshopped pictures of women in their undies and bikini's showing off just how great their lives are, then get precious when called out at times on things, and I have to questions the motives of the postings in the first place, as to me it's blatant showing off 9/10 it's not aspirational as some will claim as it's just not achievable for most, who for the most support these people on their way up, and whilst they don't necessarily deserve the death threats and abuse thrown at them most of the time, the constant bragging must wear thin, but if you promote yourself constantly showing off your 'life' or at least the carefully constructed life in pictures and post about your love life, then yes I think it will backfire when it goes wrong and I know the papers picked up on her last tumultuous relationship which seemed to be be played out on twitter or instagram with them both posting about each other and their short comings, so I would say of course the papers are going to be interested when you get arrested for domestic violence.

I also struggle with the double standards in some respects if she had been a he arrested for DV then I sure many more women would be baying for her blood but because she is she it's almost as if allowances have to be made because she is/was a small woman and he is a man 'grrr' who couldn't defend himself against her, yet he was the one who called the police in the first place, and if reports at the time were to be believed I think it was recorded that she attacked the police/resisted arrest and was recorded on their body cams and she concerned this was going to be shown in court, which whilst the press coverage hasn't been great about her, ultimately it was her own behaviour that seems to have been the catalyst to all this. I find the friend 'releasing' the last known photo to press distasteful in least and all the 'celebs' now posting about their grief for her but really it's all about them and how they did or didn't do enough for her, I feel very sorry for her family though, but ultimately she is responsible for her own actions.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

I agree that celebs do have to take some responsibility for their actions as we all do. But I honestly believe that showing off doesn't deserve the kind of abuse a lot of them get. Being told by a total stranger that they hope your children die of cancer after you have posted a photo of them winning a prize and said how happy you are can't be right, can it? And I have seen that myself. 

Jess Phillips is an MP. She uses Twitter quite a lot and some of the abuse she gets is absolutely horrendous. I follow her cos I find her interesting and funny. But I very rarely look at the comments cos I know a lot of them will make me feel sick. She isn't showing off her wonderful life, she's talking about politics and family and TV and all kinds of stuff. And yet she has been called all sorts of disgusting things, including the C word. 

The husband of Rev Richard Coles died last winter. Rev Coles had so-called 'Christians' telling him that his beloved husband was burning in hell. On the same thread that he posted about the loss of David.

I agree that people should get called out for bad behaviour but not like this. SM companies really really need to do something about their moderation.


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

havoc said:


> One person's definition can be different from another. I've known someone claim they're being bullied for being asked to do their job. I can't know if they honestly 'felt' they were being bullied or if they were just a bone idle piece of garbage. In the legal world there was a wonderful test, it used to be known as 'the man on the Clapham omnibus'. It relied on determining what an ordinary, decent 'man' would think ( yeah I know but I did say it's old). If a busload of reasonable people don't think it's bullying then you do have to question the one who thinks it is.


I will remember that.

Being accused of bullying when you are just doing your job is pretty horrible, especially when the accuser is just covering their back.

Been there. It is as horrible as being bullied.
I was lucky as I had evidence that my request was ordinary and I was kept waiting by my colleague for very long time and no reason at all, while it was very important and she simply panicked and lied.

It snowballed and grew into a mountain - we both left eventually.

Remember that many people spend so much time in company of their favourite TV presenters that they become sort of friends and are missed, so such a tragic death had impact on many.

Same as with our favorite singers, actors or sportsmen.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

mrs phas said:


> If someone feels bulied, then they are being bullied
> Whether its name calling, racial, emotional, physical, sexual, psychological etc is irrelevant
> If someone is getting gratification, from making another feel unhappy or demeaned, even once
> Then it is bullying, full stop.


I find this an interesting comment given how you replied to me on the William Golding thread. 
What if it's 'just a joke'? 
What if the person feeling bullied just 'can't take a joke'?

Rhetorical question really. I don't care for the 'can't take a joke' excuse either.



Billbailey said:


> But I very rarely look at the comments cos I know a lot of them will make me feel sick.


See this is where I see social media as so different from other forms of bullying and verbal abuse. Exactly as you said, you avoid reading the comments - you can do that.

I used to have to walk from Grand Central Station in NY to my mom's office building. On the way I got cat called, which as a 16 year old I found unsettling at best. Some of the comments were very graphic and I found them frightening. It didn't matter how inconspicuous I tried to make myself, if I was covered head to toe in winter clothes or wearing jeans and a T shirt in summer, I couldn't get away from the comments, I couldn't avoid hearing them, I couldn't avoid walking by men who might cat call me.

Whereas on FB, twitter, even here, I can post something and quite literally walk away. I can put people on ignore and never see a thing they post. I can simply not open threads that I know are going to upset me, or not go back to them. I can get away.

Of course it doesn't make it okay that people are horrible to each other online, but it seems to me that it's more 'escapable' if you will.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> Whereas on FB, twitter, even here, I can post something and quite literally walk away.


So can I. The difference between us and celebs etc. is that our lives, our minds, our very reason for existing don't rely on public opinion and adulation. This is particularly true of those who are 'famous for being famous'. By definition they have nothing else and they are not capable of walking away, it is the attention and fame they sought and need.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

mrs phas said:


> if *they* _feel_ bullied, we have to accept thats how *they* feel that its *their *opinion
> and surely, despite how _*we*_ view it, *their* feelings and* their* opinion should be recognise


 True: some people are very sensitive, and in addition may be struggling with issues which are not obvious; others may be far more resilient (thick-skinned if you like) and able to shrug it off. What I can never understand though is people (usually young men/boys) who commit suicide because they are being bullied online - I always ask myself why they don't just look at something else on their phone/pc? Why keep logging on to something you know will upset you? If someone insulted me every time I logged on to PF, I'd give it a miss, permanently.
I think the bottom line is ''be kind to people'' - you don't know how they are feeling, or if they are in a fragile state. So often after a suicide, friends/relatives say: ''I had no idea he/she was feeling this way . . . I saw him/her at the weekend; he seemed fine''.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

havoc said:


> So can I. The difference between us and celebs etc. is that our lives, our minds, our very reason for existing don't rely on public opinion and adulation. This is particularly true of those who are 'famous for being famous'. By definition they have nothing else and they are not capable of walking away, it is the attention and fame they sought and need.


Which makes me wonder what responsibility to we consumers of the fame/celebrity media have in all this.

I also wonder if with the right support and therapy if you will these people could learn to walk away and find other ways of fulfillment in life. 
There are plenty of celebs who manage to live outside of the spotlight, have marriages, raise their children... What are these folks doing right?


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I find this an interesting comment given how you replied to me on the William Golding thread.
> What if it's 'just a joke'?
> What if the person feeling bullied just 'can't take a joke'?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that you feel I was in Bullying mode when I replied quoting yours, and some other random post , it was certainly not my intention
In fact, as i said further down that particular thread, I had expected you to be the person who posted the root of that quote, and was more than shocked that you, on the surface, seemed to take it seriously
not that is any form of an excuse
My deepest apologies to yourself. I've never been a bully,
In fact for 90%,of my life, including adult life, I've been the recipient
and
have twice known the despair those who take their own life have felt.
Again this is no excuse for making you feel that I was being a bully

Your right, maybe I should look at my sarcasm with a different light
And
Try to take into account what said person, yourself in this instance, may be going through at any one particular time
Again
My apologies


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

mrs phas said:


> I'm sorry that you feel I was in Bullying mode when I replied quoting yours, and some other random post , it was certainly not my intention
> In fact, as i said further down that particular thread, I had expected you to be the person who posted the root of that quote, and was more than shocked that you, on the surface, seemed to take it seriously
> not that is any form of an excuse
> My deepest apologies to yourself. I've never been a bully,
> ...


No apology sought or needed. 
I didn't feel bullied at all. Nor did I think you were bullying.
I just found your two posts an interesting juxtaposition that's all.

As for the William Golding quote, why wouldn't I (or anyone) take it seriously? It was a serious question that he was asked, and he gave a thoughtful response, he wasn't joking.

*shrug* this is all going a weird direction I'm not quite sure how to proceed so I'm just going to awkwardly step away...


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-51542688

next week it will be chip paper,
ultimately, nothing will change
As for russell bbrand
does he think everyones forgotten how he and jonathon ross trolled andrew sachs?
some of us havent
people are bravest when theyre anonymous
so theyll just find another target
Havent seen MM and PH on the front page for a while......


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I also think that it is easy for celebrities to actually start believing in their own persona, believing that they are above us mortals...
Strong people don’t loose the grip ... Mick Jagger for example...


On the other hand show business attracts people who tend to go to extremes, can be the most vivacious and also get their downs rather heavy. 

Public usually knows the sunny side only...

Even keeled people in comparison might appear boring...


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> I also think that it is easy for celebrities to actually start believing in their own persona, believing that they are above us mortals...
> Strong people don't loose the grip ... Mick Jagger for example...


I have once been in the situation when I've been waved past security into 'restricted' areas and didn't realise what was going on. It was in 1994 and to this day I still have no idea how security knew who I was or how I was part of a group entitled to enter a private party for a (new) world champion - but they did. It's heady. Since then I have been backstage or guestlisted at numerous 'events'. Let's be honest, I'd go to the opening of an envelope if it's costing me nothing. I'm well aware how a feeling of 'entitelement' can become the norm. I'm nothing, honestly nothing, and I know that. Imagine what it's lke when you think you're 'something'. Imagine what it's like to think all that is about to disappear. It must be awful.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

I read somewhere that the incidence of bi-polar is much higher amongst celebrities than amongst the general population. If I can find the link, I'll post it.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Calvine said:


> What I can never understand though is people (usually young men/boys) who commit suicide because they are being bullied online


According to people who study these things there is a big element of impulsiveness in suicidal behavior, which young men are notorious for. Until that frontal lobe fully develops around 25 or so, it's difficult for young people - men particularly to control those impulses.

For most of us it's uncomfortable to consider, but at the end of the day, suicide is homicidal behavior. Aggression. Aggression toward yourself, but aggression nonetheless. Seeking to do harm. 
I can see some of that anger at being bullied getting weirdly re-directed, coupled with impressiveness and yep, it can escalate quickly.

More uncomfortable ponderings - it's not unusual for abusive people to threaten to kill themselves if the abused partner leaves or calls the police, or whatever. And some do carry out the threat, it's a fairy common theme in these kind of toxic relationships. Again, the aggression and impulsiveness combining with terrible consequences.

Of course there is also so much more to it than even that, and none of this is directed at the specific case of Caroline Flack, just general musings.


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Billbailey said:


> I read somewhere that the incidence of bi-polar is much higher amongst celebrities than amongst the general population. If I can find the link, I'll post it.


I read something similar but it was due to traits and why they are suitable in the environment.. Manic mode means they can produce work to high qood quality and with good energy regularly, things like this.things like this why celebrities might have bi polar due to being able to keep up with needs at times.. They over represent themselves too which is good.


----------



## Billbailey (Dec 22, 2019)

That was it. It posited that being bipolar fits in with how the entertainment industry works for those in the front. And that the 'support services' for the stars are designed around the high and lows.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I would think Narcissistic Personality Disorder would be a big one in those 'famous for being famous'


----------



## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> I would think Narcissistic Personality Disorder would be a big one in those 'famous for being famous'


Most manic behavior is narcisstic, as we talk waves and troughs a manic time can last, the peak is often soften though, but sill high and think of very little about your self or other and are simply able to shine a personality through for days after days.. Put on medication stabilisers does stop the mania doesn't stop the highs still happening so you still can keep up the good show.. For lows good anti depressant and you are really are on even ground. What people like to see, confident, not afraid to try, van make fun of them selves all those performers who succeed can do this
Am


----------



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

On another note... there is more aggression ... from terrorist attacks, knife crimes, racist abuse to more violence in movies, more brutal language in songs we listen too...
Those are not Flower Power times...

Kindness, politeness, sharing and caring are diminishing...

Of course it affects us all. People are becoming more divided. Goodbye cruel world... 

I don’t think suicide is an act of aggression, rather an act of desperation. It is fuelled by fear...

Our personality , our self is built by connecting with others, by being recognised by our tribe as one of us, it goes beyond human species...
When you can be what feels like shunned it is very hard to bear... your self is going through the stage of disintegration.., you don’t know who you are...

She was very much defined by her TV persona , so to adjust to a different life was frightening.
People just want to be happy and if they think they cannot be happy anymore then it is dangerous...

The key word is HOPE ....to find that there is something worth to live for...


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> There are plenty of celebs who manage to live outside of the spotlight, have marriages, raise their children... What are these folks doing right?


They either have more stable personalities to start with, often coming to the profession that bit later in life, or they have a skill which is their focus. If someone doesn't like your new album/play/film it isn't the same as not liking you. It's most dangerous when you are your role, then it's personal.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> I don't think suicide is an act of aggression, rather an act of desperation. It is fuelled by fear...
> 
> The key word is HOPE ....to find that there is something worth to live for...


I always think of suicide as desperation and escape from living. People commit suicide for all sorts of reason , to escape from physical and mental pain, bereavement , or depression for example. Its hard to have hope when you are that low , you think the pain will never go away but it does. So yeah , have hope, it will get better.


----------

