# 27 Eagles,7 years,0 Prosecutions.



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

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27 eagles, 7 years, 0 prosecutions. The toll of wildlife crimes on Scotland's hunting estate!.(leaving out the relentless persecution of protected buzzards,kites,sparrowhawks,hen harriers,owl species.)

We only see the tip of a very very large iceberg, as is becoming clearer to everyone by the day.

"Its also worth pointing out that if Scottish Land & Estates and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association had their way, we wouldnt be able to report on any of these cases because presumably the police are still investigating them all. I cant for the life of me think why those two organisations would prefer this information was kept secret." ....nor can I !

27 eagles, 7 years, 0 prosecutions | Raptor Persecution Scotland


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Could it possibly be that the culprits aren't gamekeepers? Just because the birds are found on these estates doesn't mean they were poisoned there.

They keep pointing the finger but have very little evidence. Maybe looking elsewhere for the killers may bring forth some prosecutions?

Possibly here 
http://www.rpra.org/raptor-alliance/
Scottish National Racing Pigeon Club

Or here
http://www.warmwell.com/raptors.html
http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/releases/windfarms-bird-mortality-cover-up-in-the-uk.html
http://toryaardvark.com/2012/04/17/the-guardian-lies-about-bird-deaths-wind-turbines/

http://www.warners-solicitors.co.uk/article/1094/raptors-persecution-of-gamekeepers.html


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Could it possibly be that the culprits aren't gamekeepers? Just because the birds are found on these estates doesn't mean they were poisoned there.
> 
> They keep pointing the finger but have very little evidence. Maybe looking elsewhere for the killers may bring forth some prosecutions?
> 
> ...


Maybe they should set up covert cameras to catch the culprits in the act , like this recent case of this ******* gamekeeper! caught red handed beating to death buzzards with a stick in Cumbria! his 'punishment?'...a slap on the wrist! Buzzard-killing video - WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT | Raptor Persecution Scotland though it appears in Scotland the video evidence wouldn't be admissible in a court of law! Everything is stacked against these birds, .. greed,selfishness, Government,... the law! To the majority these spectacular birds are priceless but to a powerful, cruel and ignorant minority they are worthless.

I wont defend pigeon fanciers either , i know the ignorant ones would/do kill peregrine and spars..this shower are equally VILE. If my dad in law (who races pigeons) did anything so evil, much as i think about him, i would shop him without hesitation ..and that link of them lobbying, with the help of the revolting CA, to get racing pigeon re classified as livestock, so they can 'legally persecute them, is utterly disgusting and very disturbing.... I think theyve an excellent chance of getting their way now the bloodjunkies are running defra & NE. .

I think you'll find the only raptors the pigeon lot hate are peregrine and sparrowhawks though..they'd have nothing to gain from killing eagles and other raptors, so no I don't buy your theory that they or other parties are responsible for wiping out eagles and other raptors on shooting estates...If that was the case why is it just certain estates that are black holes for eagles and other raptors? There is a STACK of evidence that shoots are having a massive impact on raptor numbers, especially on the grouse moors...you have to be wilfully blind to dimiss it.

Scottish Raptor Study Group - Raptor Persecution
. A suite of scientific peer-reviewed studies has demonstrated unequivocally that illegal persecution continues and that it occurs disproportionately on land managed as grouse moor (Whitfield et al. 2003). For example, populations of golden eagles (Whitfield et al. 2004a; 2004b; 2007; 2008; Watson 2013), hen harriers (Etheridge et al. 1997; Fielding et al. 2011), goshawks (Marquiss et al. 2003); peregrines (Hardey et al. 2003) and red kites (Smart et al. 2010) are all severely constrained in parts of Scotland as a direct result of illegal persecution. The most commonly used methods are still poisoning, shooting, trapping and nest destruction.

Here are some interesting facts on the Eagle persecution...

That's pretty stark. Golden eagles in areas of western Scotland (with little if any grouse shooting interests) occupied over 80% of the available territories; golden eagles in the central and eastern Highlands (grouse moor hell) had an occupancy rate of below 50%, and in one region (North East Glens) it was a shocking 17.6%. Why is it that all those available golden eagle territories in the East and Central uplands are vacant? What's stopping them from breeding there? Hmmm, whatever could it be?

Gamekeepers and golden eagles: the facts | Raptor Persecution Scotland

Yes windfarms 'in the wrong places' can be a serious hazard to these birds, but the 27 eagles were either shot, poisoned,'disappeared (turbines dont remove satalite tags either)' ... I found that 'save the eagles' link you posted very odd indeed nothing on there except the dangers of windfarms to birds..very one dimensional for an organisation concerned with 'saving' a species, there are FAR greater threats than windfarms...climate change being perhaps the greatest threat of all and so to combat it we NEED green energy. So it made me question if Duchamp is even a bird lover, a little delving on google and soon discovered he is indeed a climate change denier hes clearly using eagles to further his own selfish agenda!

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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

So, you think that poison put out for peregrines and sparrowhawks by pigeon fanciers would be avoided by other raptors? 

The raptor that I've seen taking most pigeons is the Buzzard


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Could this go some way to explaining why one type of Raptor succeeds while other fail?

James Marchington: Buzzard strikes again

Note, actual footage not just a guess at what might have happened


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> So, you think that poison put out for peregrines and sparrowhawks by pigeon fanciers would be avoided by other raptors?
> 
> The raptor that I've seen taking most pigeons is the Buzzard


No, what I think is that its highly unlikely pigeon fanciers are traipsing on to 'certain' shooting estates to poison their resident raptors !

Maybe so, but even on your link, you see its peregrine and spars that pigeon fanciers are gunning for.



rona said:


> Could this go some way to explaining why one type of Raptor succeeds while other fail?
> 
> James Marchington: Buzzard strikes again
> 
> Note, actual footage not just a guess at what might have happened


I've already seen this footage. Yes some creatures do predate other creatures..its called nature

The ludicracy of the press release highlighted, rather brilliantly, by Alan Tilmouth

Silly Season in Scotland

The good folk at Raptor Persecution Scotland flagged up an interesting press release from Scottish Land & Estates about an incident of attempted predation by a Buzzard on an Osprey nest. A typically opportunistic and natural occurrence that happens in the wild is suddenly turned into the centrepiece of a typically opportunistic attack on Buzzards in a laughable press release filled with opinion and little else.

Read the press release then take a few seconds to ask a few basic questions -

1. "This cannot be passed off as simply nature taking its course" - why not? In fact that's exactly what it is, nothing more and nothing less. Similar events take place across the natural world, it's called predation and it exists.

2. "*Buzzards numbers have been growing steadily since the 1980s and are now at record levels in Scotland. The latest official BTO Bird Atlas Survey demonstrates a more than healthy population which is no longer of conservation concern." - all true but where is the balancing statement highlighting that Osprey populations have also grown in the same period allowing its conservation status to be reduced from Red to Amber? Of course it's missing precisely because the fact Osprey numbers are growing at the same time as the Buzzard population completely debunks the 'Buzzards are a serious conservation threat to Osprey myth' that this press release is trying to create*.

3. "While previous reports of such predation have been brushed off by those who do not like the reality of what is happening in the countryside, this second video provides the sad but clear and conclusive evidence of the serious impacts of the growing population of buzzards. *There are gaps in scientific knowledge about these impacts"- Let's be clear, there is a huge amount that goes on in the countryside I don't like, poisoning, illegal trapping and shooting of birds of prey, widespread use of lead-shot illegally just for starters but a natural predation event whatever species are involved does not concern me nor does it constitute a 'serious impact'. When it comes to gaps in scientific knowledge perhaps Douglas Mcadam (CE of Scottish Land & Estates) would perhaps be better minded to address concerns over the impact of 35m non-native gamebirds released into the countryside each year, many by his members.*

_*The problem is that he and his ilk don't really care about the 'natural countryside' their concern extends to the impact on grouse or pheasants and the profits derived from the shooting thereof. That's what rankles when they try and hijack a natural event and use it to demonise the species involved in predation. These kind of attacks and attempts to create hysteria surrounding Buzzards are simply part of a bigger campaign to persuade government that they should be allowed to kill Buzzards under licence.*_* To hear SLE conclude that because of the occasional predation of Ospreys by Buzzards "A rational debate is urgently needed in which evidence from land and wildlife managers, such as Euan Webster can be taken into account" is ludicrous, irrational, emotive nonsense. If there is to be a debate then perhaps the need for 'wildlife managers' and the scope of their responsibilities is where we should start, I can think of many species that would benefit from a reduction in the activities (currently legal and illegal) of this particular group.*


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

All I'm doing is giving alternatives to the very biased view that the only threat to Raptors are shooting people........that is very far from true.

There's no pigeon fanciers around these estates then? 

How long does Carbofuran take to kill?

Could it be they picked it up elsewhere?

Be a bit silly of Gamekeepers to use Carbofuran, as it kills game birds too!!!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> All I'm doing is giving alternatives to the very biased view that the only threat to Raptors are shooting people........that is very far from true.


Ive never said theyre the only threat But they ARE one of the greatest threats to raptors. Telling the truth isn't me being bias, i'd condemn anyone!...... the FACT is their is a mountain range of evidence against stacked against shoots!....you have to be in denial to ignore it! The driven grouse shoots 'alone' are responsible for the demise of Hen harriers in England. The shoot lobby has long been pushing for the right to control raptors. Something they already do - illegally...whether you chose to believe it or not.

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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> All I'm doing is giving alternatives to the very biased view that the only threat to Raptors are shooting people........that is very far from true.
> 
> There's no pigeon fanciers around these estates then?
> 
> ...


Wow, you even deny gamekeepers use carbofuran now:.......

Wildlife Extra News - 'Vicious' gamekeeper convicted of poisoning buzzards

BBC News - Galloway gamekeeper Peter Bell admits buzzard poisoning

The RSPB: News: Second Lanarkshire gamekeeper convicted of poisoning offences

Gamekeeper

RSPB: Gamekeeper convicted of placing poison bait

Gamekeeper with huge cache of bird poison fined £3,300 | Environment | guardian.co.uk

Gamekeeper Convicted of Poisoning | National Wildlife Crime Unit | NWCU

perhaps they were pigeon fanciers in disguise.......


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

No I'm not but many many others do (that's do, not did) still have stocks of it. Like any chemical that's about to be banned. People hide it.

Look more closely at the growers too.........bet they have a load of this stashed away


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Mmm those reports go from 2007 to 2013. I wonder how many would break the law in general life if you took a group of 5000 people over a 6 year period 

There's also reports of Anti shooting fraternity poisoning raptors to try and get shooting stopped. 

We all know what they were willing to do to hounds to get hunting stopped


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> No I'm not but many many others do (that's do, not did) still have stocks of it. Like any chemical that's about to be banned. People hide it.
> 
> Look more closely at the growers too.........bet they have a load of this stashed away


Sorry I don't get your point? What would growers have to gain from poisoning raptors? besides the risk of a criminal record?

The FACT remains that many Gamekeepers are still persecuting raptors, the convicted are are just the tip of a very large iceberg!....That is why, despite being prime habitat, raptor populations on many shoots, & most driven grouse moors, are crashing!


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

But one grain of this stuff can kill a small bird!!

Anyone using it is a risk to birds of all types. An animal eaten by a bird that ingested some of this stuff could kill it. So a smallish bird ingests a raptor catches the bird and dies.

I know that *some* gamekeepers are to blame......but so are *some* pigeon fanciers,windfarms, farmers, growers, gardeners and even other raptors.

A few bad eggs does not make a whole profession corrupt


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Mmm those reports go from 2007 to 2013. I wonder how many would break the law in general life if you took a group of 5000 people over a 6 year period
> 
> There's also reports of Anti shooting fraternity poisoning raptors to try and get shooting stopped.
> 
> We all know what they were willing to do to hounds to get hunting stopped


No course, it couldn't Actually be gamekeepers killing the raptors could it? :eek6:

Well I'm sure you must have links to support such an allegation & also links to the antis that have been convicted of poisoning raptors? Thanks.

.

. 
eta Actually no, I don't know what they were willing to do to hounds to get hunting stopped? all ive ever heard is anecdotes...Anyone 'anti' who could deliberately harm any animal isn't a genuine 'anti' . They would be no better than the hunters.

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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I didn't notice this post yesterday.



> rona said:
> 
> 
> > But one grain of this stuff can kill a small bird!!
> ...


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