# bad farts after raw organ



## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

Hey

I see some of you raw feed your dogs? i started in January switching to the 80 10 10 raw diet do it yourself from premade due to bad gas and eeeww stool puddles. She did well until i add in liver now she does really well otherwise on this diet of horse, rabbit, veal, lamb and beef tounge heart and cheek, other protiens i prob missed out. Its just the gas when she has organs i can go really slow getting her to full amount but everytime has lambs liver omg lol

Does anyone elses dog who has a sensitive system have this? once i get to UK i plan to try a differemt type of liver eg beef. im just curious if any other dogs when having organ day have this issue? i even give tripe on these days. Recently accidentally thought rabbit was beef( lots going on with move to UK) so she got constipated as the rabbit is bone in and i think i now fixed that.


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## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

I am a raw feeder.
Most of the liver I feed is from deer and sometimes beef/cow but never had wind problems specifically linked to liver, just very squidgy poo if I give too much.
We do have one of the dogs who occasionally saves up her smelly wind for the evenings while we are sitting watching the tv, it does not happen very often and I have never connected it to anything specific in her food! Although to come out at the bottom end something must have gone in at the top end to cause it.
Very hard poo's are all part of a raw diet and it helps express the anal glands, the very white crumbly poo's I get after a day of bones, but this disappears after the next day of all meat diet. Our dogs do need bone in their diet, whether it is in their minced meat or given as a meaty bone it is an essential part of a healthy balanced diet.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Not raw fed but our old girl could clear the room when she was on Millies Wolfheart food containing tripe ! Could it be the tripe causing your dog's issues ? Not nice is it !


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

wee man said:


> I am a raw feeder.
> Most of the liver I feed is from deer and sometimes beef/cow but never had wind problems specifically linked to liver, just very squidgy poo if I give too much.
> We do have one of the dogs who occasionally saves up her smelly wind for the evenings while we are sitting watching the tv, it does not happen very often and I have never connected it to anything specific in her food! Although to come out at the bottom end something must have gone in at the top end to cause it.
> Very hard poo's are all part of a raw diet and it helps express the anal glands, the very white crumbly poo's I get after a day of bones, but this disappears after the next day of all meat diet. Our dogs do need bone in their diet, whether it is in their minced meat or given as a meaty bone it is an essential part of a healthy balanced diet.


Hi,

Reason i know its the lambs fry is because i accidently constipated her and was told to give liver and i only use lamb for the liver well not even a few hours later phew thats (swear word) disgusting Jessie! so powerful and strong smelling........ on the days just meat if she does fart if your up really close you smell it otherwise all good! if i change liver source i cant just give 26gm at once with bone in can i? Sometimes i do wonder if she saves them till goes under bed blankets because last night i didnt let her under cover at first she lay on me no farts right? let her under and phew ugh Jessie ! when i give organ i give bone in too.
ive only tried lambs fry and kidneys to start off with once get to uk i hope to change sources of liver to see what happens but it means building up slowly to full amount again doesnt it? on the days where just meat can barely smell them if she farts unless close up but mild compared to these ones!


SusieRainbow said:


> Not raw fed but our old girl could clear the room when she was on Millies Wolfheart food containing tripe ! Could it be the tripe causing your dog's issues ? Not nice is it !


Jessie doesnt get tripe often and when she does it only with organ and bone in till get to full amount which few grams off now! first week of doing it myself was pure tripe same tripe actually unminced and no farts at all poops fantastic etc so cant be the tripe? no it isnt nice........


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Are you using a probiotic? That may be all that's needed.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

lorilu said:


> Are you using a probiotic? That may be all that's needed.


No im not, i am unsure what to use as probiotic and unsure if there are dog ones in new zealand currently im not flush with cash right now as we are moving in just over a month to UK, can you please reccomend a good dog probiotic in the UK thats not expensive? i need to get her shampoo which is $30 which cant afford right now but going to put money away but waiting on avon pay at same time. i was thinking does she need a digestive supplement?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> Hey
> 
> I see some of you raw feed your dogs? i started in January switching to the 80 10 10 raw diet do it yourself from premade due to bad gas and eeeww stool puddles. She did well until i add in liver now she does really well otherwise on this diet of horse, rabbit, veal, lamb and beef tounge heart and cheek, other protiens i prob missed out. Its just the gas when she has organs i can go really slow getting her to full amount but everytime has lambs liver omg lol
> 
> Does anyone elses dog who has a sensitive system have this? once i get to UK i plan to try a differemt type of liver eg beef. im just curious if any other dogs when having organ day have this issue? i even give tripe on these days. Recently accidentally thought rabbit was beef( lots going on with move to UK) so she got constipated as the rabbit is bone in and i think i now fixed that.


No my dogs do not have any gas or stool issues when eating liver, but I do not work on your percentage system. If it is an issue, do not feed it, liver does not provide anything unique that cannot be provided by other sources.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> No my dogs do not have any gas or stool issues when eating liver, but I do not work on your percentage system. If it is an issue, do not feed it, liver does not provide anything unique that cannot be provided by other sources.


i was told its the most important part of the diet so i feed it. has to be 5%liver adn 5% other organ. Got told they cant go long without it


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

Also currently i cant find any other organs in new zealand i have looked. i suspect UK will be way better for that


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> i was told its the most important part of the diet so i feed it. has to be 5%liver adn 5% other organ. Got told they cant go long without it


Not sure who told you this but it is totally untrue. Liver is a great source of Vitamin A but this can be provided by other meats, fish, eggs etc


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Not sure who told you this but it is totally untrue. Liver is a great source of Vitamin A but this can be provided by other meats, fish, eggs etc


Ah no wonder i got told that Jessie cant eat fish and eggs and we havent got round to trying the two seperately raw yet and right now rather avoid those.

What other organs provide same benefits to liver that might agree with Jessie?


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

got told by someone on another dog forum and either by the company i go through for her food or another raw group on facebook got told its essential part of dogs diet


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> Ah no wonder i got told that Jessie cant eat fish and eggs and we havent got round to trying the two seperately raw yet and right now rather avoid those.
> 
> What other organs provide same benefits to liver that might agree with Jessie?


Who told you that your dog cannot eat fish or eggs?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Feed spinach, sweet potato, carrots


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Feed spinach, sweet potato, carrots


Thats another problem we had urine problems when she had cooked and raw veges thanks to k9 natural frozen food and lots of urine problems vet and i sent urine sample to lab and showed the raw fruit and veggies caused the urine PH to be 9 since been on prey model raw only no problems unless eats fruits veges or gets into kibble from the labradors. as for who said that well its based on experience with the fish on acana fish kibble anal glands became infected badly and bad farts and red skin. Hoping to try raw fish at some point but as she been through protien changes and slowly painfully increasing organs will wait till get to UK for that and settled. Raw eggs were in k9 nartural and possible cause for the hair loss on her chest, i just got to add one thing at a time and see what happens.

This dog has sure given my family a huge lesson on what can go wrong etc


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> No im not, i am unsure what to use as probiotic and unsure if there are dog ones in new zealand currently im not flush with cash right now as we are moving in just over a month to UK, can you please reccomend a good dog probiotic in the UK thats not expensive? i need to get her shampoo which is $30 which cant afford right now but going to put money away but waiting on avon pay at same time. i was thinking does she need a digestive supplement?


I use human probiotics for my cats and would recommend you use human for your dog. Natural Factor double strength is the brand I use, you can probably find something comparable over there.

And you are correct, liver is very important and should be 5% of the secreting organ. Try different livers if lamb is causing the problem, but I would think the probiotic will help a lot.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I use Bionic Biotic for my dogs, £9.99 for at least 1 months supply. It works well.

http://www.medicines4pets.co.uk/p-2...ggoHSTkqiquqNAWUZVfEKTp_28CuZJqVWoaAlCN8P8HAQ


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

You want to look for something that provides at least 10 billion ACU. : )


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## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

Try raw green tripe for your natural probiotic.
Raw green tripe offers beneficial bacteria and enzymes. It has a desirable calcium; phosphorus ratio of 1.1. Green trip has the correct proportions of Omega-3 and Omega-6.
One of the best constituents of raw tripe is Lactobacillus acidophilus,. This is one of the intestinal bacteria that keep unwanted bacteria such as e-coli and listeria from over populating and causing health problems.
A balance of micro flora in the gut is extremely important to maintaining good health. These *probiotics* help keep the animal's immune system in top shape.
Raw green tripe contains the following vitamins and minerals along with other naturally occurring goodness;
Vitamin E, Riboflavin, Niacin, Folate, Vitamin B12, Pantothenic. Acid, Choline, Iron, Magnesium, Potassium, Phosphorus, Sodium, Zinc, Copper, Manganese, Selenium.
Natural "live" yoghourt also contains good bacteria for the gut.

Don't let the raw feeding become too difficult or a problem, it is not!
I never measure my different types of meat/bones/offal.
With our animals this balances itself over a period of a few weeks, just as long as we keep plenty of variety within the diet ; meat types (but not every day), various offal, and raw meaty bones, fat and gristle, eggs and fish are fine and fruit and vegetables.
Relax enjoy your raw feeding.

PS,
Tripe within a kibble will have been cooked and processed, it will not have the same natural probiotics and benefits as the raw green tripe has !


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

SusieRainbow said:


> I use Bionic Biotic for my dogs, £9.99 for at least 1 months supply. It works well.
> 
> http://www.medicines4pets.co.uk/p-2...ggoHSTkqiquqNAWUZVfEKTp_28CuZJqVWoaAlCN8P8HAQ


Thanks for that appreciated , looked at it but doesnt list ingredients i assume its just probiotics no chicken flavor etc?



lorilu said:


> You want to look for something that provides at least 10 billion ACU. : )


Okay this is very good to know what need to look out for! i will start searching and make sure has that much ACU 



wee man said:


> Try raw green tripe for your natural probiotic.
> Raw green tripe offers beneficial bacteria and enzymes. It has a desirable calcium; phosphorus ratio of 1.1. Green trip has the correct proportions of Omega-3 and Omega-6.
> One of the best constituents of raw tripe is Lactobacillus acidophilus,. This is one of the intestinal bacteria that keep unwanted bacteria such as e-coli and listeria from over populating and causing health problems.
> A balance of micro flora in the gut is extremely important to maintaining good health. These *probiotics* help keep the animal's immune system in top shape.
> ...


When she gets organ and bone in she gets a cube of green tripe in the morning with it then 2 more cubes for dinner, am i feeding too much tripe? im glad to know it has omega 3 in it because Jessie doesnt tolerate fish oil at all! first time i re tried it she smelt of anal gland smell and hers were removed thanks! then next time i tried another brand not nice farts and stools so i see she may need tripe daily from now on? i sure am going to try a cube a day i am postitive we only have 2 gm to up the liver till at full amount needed.

i HAD no idea it contains all that to me it looks disgusting of lambs innards and i didnt know every vitamin and mineral it had in it no wonder when i fed it for a week exclusively her poops wre great and no farts!

i admit its a bit overwhelming and was a problem when landlord was selling my house as i have a small freezer i can prep a weeks worth or a months worth for example instead i can fit 3 days worth till theres a dent in the freezer to hold 6 days worth and when i was about to prep her raw food a viewer had to view the house so i had to re arrange alot of things but she still got her raw as kibble gives her red skin dandruff dull coat chubby body at ideal weight, urine problems such as cystitis , urine ph problems even urinaid wouldnt work anymore and that was on 1 tablet a day from half.

Out of desperation we sent her urine to the lab and thats when we learnt (was on k9 natural at this stage) via the lab results its the veges and fruit in the diet causing it to be so alkaline and they were concerned about it as it was the same lab previous vet used(long story there) she did also have crystals at one point.

i was looking into a pre made prey model raw food company anyway for awhile they were fantastic and jess did well on it urine problems went in 3 days esp her urine ph went normal! but as she had continious gas and puddles on that food and i had trouble with them, i changed company and doing so much more better apart from bad farts since starting liver at 4gm and now at 24gm needs 26.5gm twice a week of liver and kidney.

I suppose its just a bit overwhelming learnt may have to move sooner then though back to UK cos of my gran in hospital for second time in a month to 6 weeks. She just deteriating this year hopefully she can make it for longer and we can fly mid -end of march or april and she still here with us.

Also had i not had these bad farts it wouldnt of been a problem i was just wondering if there was a problem with the liver doing this and wanted advice as im still new to balancing it out myself and prepping it etc so consider me a newbie to doing it properly and still learning alot 

other then at times feeling like cant be bothered/too tired to prep then reminding myself i have to prep regardless so she dont go hungry and that this diet works (it does) and other then the awful smells coming out of her and the wrestling match with duck necks im about to try thursday if poops good then i do enjoy it lol though i dont enjoy tripe smell but starting to get used to it.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

lorilu said:


> I use human probiotics for my cats and would recommend you use human for your dog. Natural Factor double strength is the brand I use, you can probably find something comparable over there.
> 
> And you are correct, liver is very important and should be 5% of the secreting organ. Try different livers if lamb is causing the problem, but I would think the probiotic will help a lot.


Thank you for confirming im right re the 5% liver and 5% kidney in the 80 10 10 diet! greatly appreciate that thought it didnt seem right not to feed liver and subsitute for veges and carbs(sweet potato) and carrots. She does great on lamb overall just the liver for some reason. is there any livers not as rich as lamb? beef would be even richer? ive seen pigs liver in my local mad butchers so thinking of trying that. Id have to introduce it slowly though like with the lambs fry(liver) how long would it take to know if while mixing it with lamb liver to slowly transition her would it be before i knew if it doesnt cause her gas? i dont mind mild farts/gas? or as kiwis call them over in NZ blow offs


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> Thank you for confirming im right re the 5% liver and 5% kidney in the 80 10 10 diet! greatly appreciate that thought it didnt seem right not to feed liver and subsitute for veges and carbs(sweet potato) and carrots. She does great on lamb overall just the liver for some reason. is there any livers not as rich as lamb? beef would be even richer? ive seen pigs liver in my local mad butchers so thinking of trying that. Id have to introduce it slowly though like with the lambs fry(liver) how long would it take to know if while mixing it with lamb liver to slowly transition her would it be before i knew if it doesnt cause her gas? i dont mind mild farts/gas? or as kiwis call them over in NZ blow offs


I think what @smokeybear was saying is that its not essential. Yes a lot of raw feeding websites/books recommend it and you don't want to feed too much of it but its not essential as you can get the nutrients elsewhere if it doesn't agree with your dog. Liver gives 2 out of 3 of mine the runs something rotten, the same 2 won't touch it raw either so I flash fry it and only feed it when they are having a higher than average bone content meal to even things out.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Here you go
https://www.poochandmutt.co.uk/prod...tion-skin-coat-and-condition/#tab-ingredients


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I do not agree that liver is not essential. Liver is essential to a raw diet. It provides nutrients that other organs and muscle do not. Any raw diet should contain at least 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ to be balanced.

Some, not able to get any other secreting organ, will feed 10% liver, which is okay. But the liver IS essential.

PS @Shihtzu_lover You might give freeze dried liver a try, if it is in your budget. Some pets do better with that.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I do not agree that liver is not essential. Liver is essential to a raw diet. It provides nutrients that other organs and muscle do not. Any raw diet should contain at least 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ to be balanced.
> 
> Some, not able to get any other secreting organ, will feed 10% liver, which is okay. But the liver IS essential.
> 
> PS @Shihtzu_lover You might give freeze dried liver a try, if it is in your budget. Some pets do better with that.


No one source of a specific nutrient is indispensable an ominvorous animal.

It may be your opinion that liver is "essential" but it is not a fact. 

Please add a scientific link which shows liver is the SOLE provider of any particular nutrient. There is no nutrient UNIQUE to liver.

I am sure I am not the only one who would like to learn of this breakthrough research in science! 

Or perhaps that is your finding as someone possessing industry recognised qualifications in canine nutrition?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

Hopefully this will be helpful. It written by Mary Straus, who is a dedicated canine nutrition researcher and writer. It says that you can supplement liver with other things, eggs seem to be quite prevalent there.

http://dogaware.com/articles/newsdiet.html#recipestudy


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> Hopefully this will be helpful. It written by Mary Straus, who is a dedicated canine nutrition researcher and writer. It says that you can supplement liver with other things, eggs seem to be quite prevalent there.
> 
> http://dogaware.com/articles/newsdiet.html#recipestudy


What do you mean by "supplement liver"?

Though there is much I don't agree with in your article (such as using a human multivitamin), the article does actually state that liver is necessary. And yes, eggs are very important in any homemade diet.

_*Even if you vary ingredients, homemade diets are likely to be lacking if you leave out important food groups such as fish, eggs, or liver, *or if you rely too much on one protein source, such as chicken or beef. Some supplements, such as calcium and vitamin E, are always needed when you feed a homemade diet. *Others will be needed if you omit any of the following food groups from the diet: red meat, poultry (including some fat), fish, eggs, liver, dairy, vegetables, and fruits.*_


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

lorilu said:


> What do you mean by "supplement liver"?
> 
> Though there is much I don't agree with in your article (such as using a human multivitamin), the article does actually state that liver is necessary. And yes, eggs are very important in any homemade diet.
> 
> _*Even if you vary ingredients, homemade diets are likely to be lacking if you leave out important food groups such as fish, eggs, or liver, *or if you rely too much on one protein source, such as chicken or beef. Some supplements, such as calcium and vitamin E, are always needed when you feed a homemade diet. *Others will be needed if you omit any of the following food groups from the diet: red meat, poultry (including some fat), fish, eggs, liver, dairy, vegetables, and fruits.*_


It does state the nutrients that they get from different foods, and it seems that you can supplement liver with other foods. I'm not terribly sure what you find confusing by the word supplement.

Personally, I prefer to stick with liver, but if it doesn't agree with your dog, then it should be cut out and replacements found. Why flog a dead horse for the sake of "it says it must be 5% and that's the end of it"?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

MiffyMoo said:


> It does state the nutrients that they get from different foods, and it seems that you can supplement liver with other foods. I'm not terribly sure what you find confusing by the word supplement.
> 
> Personally, I prefer to stick with liver, but if it doesn't agree with your dog, then it should be cut out and replacements found. Why flog a dead horse for the sake of "it says it must be 5% and that's the end of it"?


I think you are trying to say "replace" liver not "supplement" liver. Supplement means to add to, so if you were supplementing liver you would be feeding liver but adding something else to it..

Why is because liver is necessary in a home made diet, when feeding the 80/10/10 basis. The only time you would not need liver is if using some kind of pre-mix specifically designed to supplement only muscle meat. And that is NOT a "human multi vitamin". If you are trying to balance the diet with food only, you need liver.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lorilu said:


> I do not agree that liver is not essential. Liver is essential to a raw diet. It provides nutrients that other organs and muscle do not. Any raw diet should contain at least 5% liver and 5% other secreting organ to be balanced.
> 
> Some, not able to get any other secreting organ, will feed 10% liver, which is okay. But the liver IS essential.
> 
> PS @Shihtzu_lover You might give freeze dried liver a try, if it is in your budget. Some pets do better with that.


Not trying to be awkward or argumentative but interested to know what it is in liver that is not available in any other food?


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## MiffyMoo (Sep 15, 2015)

lorilu said:


> I think you are trying to say "replace" liver not "supplement" liver. Supplement means to add to, so if you were supplementing liver you would be feeding liver but adding something else to it


Ooops!!



lorilu said:


> Why is because liver is necessary in a home made diet, when feeding the 80/10/10 basis. The only time you would not need liver is if using some kind of pre-mix specifically designed to supplement only muscle meat. And that is NOT a "human multi vitamin". If you are trying to balance the diet with food only, you need liver.


I disagree. As I said, I am all for liver, but if it's not working then a way must be found to work around it


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not trying to be awkward or argumentative but interested to know what it is in liver that is not available in any other food?


It's not just that the nutrients are supplied in "other foods", it's about over all balance. "Science" is not exact and no one really knows exactly what a dog needs. Liver supplies a plethora of vitamins, minerals and trace nutrients that are essential to a balanced diet. Other secreting organs, and eggs, may supply similar nutrients, but they aren't to replace liver, they are in addition to liver. When people start "replacing" core needs like liver is when imbalances happen and these are what gets the vets screaming how "dangerous" raw or home cooked diets are.

I believe a raw diet is the best thing you can feed a dog or cat. But no one should just blithely decide that because something as important as liver doesn't agree with the animal, it can be eliminated. That is dangerous thinking. That is not what the OP was doing, but what the OP has been advised to do. There are other ways to get around it other than omitting liver. Feed small portions, spread out through the week, feed other liver sources, feed freeze dried..and adding the probliotic are ways to start.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> It's not just that the nutrients are supplied in "other foods", it's about over all balance. "Science" is not exact and no one really knows exactly what a dog needs. Liver supplies a plethora of vitamins, minerals and trace nutrients that are essential to a balanced diet. Other secreting organs, and eggs, may supply similar nutrients, but they aren't to replace liver, they are in addition to liver. When people start "replacing" core needs like liver is when imbalances happen and these are what gets the vets screaming how "dangerous" raw or home cooked diets are.
> 
> I believe a raw diet is the best thing you can feed a dog or cat. But no one should just blithely decide that because something as important as liver doesn't agree with the animal, it can be eliminated. That is dangerous thinking. That is not what the OP was doing, but what the OP has been advised to do. There are other ways to get around it other than omitting liver. Feed small portions, spread out through the week, feed other liver sources, feed freeze dried..and adding the probliotic are ways to start.


Again you have failed to provide any link that states there is something unique in liver that cannot be supplied by other sources.

The fact is liver does not possess any unique nutrient

I really wonder how you think dogs (and people) manage on vegetarian or vegan diets?

You may not agree with those diets, they may not fit your ethos, but to state categorically that liver must on no account be absent from a diet is at best laughable and at worse potentially harmful for those beings which cannot support eating liver for various reasons.

Please ensure that when you post you make it clear that your views are just that, yours, as opposed to facts.

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/vegetarian-dog-lives-to-189-years.html


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

lorilu said:


> It's not just that the nutrients are supplied in "other foods", it's about over all balance. "Science" is not exact and no one really knows exactly what a dog needs. *Liver supplies a plethora of vitamins, minerals and trace nutrients that are essential to a balanced diet. Other secreting organs, and eggs, may supply similar nutrients, but they aren't to replace liver, they are in addition to liver.* When people start "replacing" core needs like liver is when imbalances happen and these are what gets the vets screaming how "dangerous" raw or home cooked diets are.
> 
> I believe a raw diet is the best thing you can feed a dog or cat. But no one should just blithely decide that because something as important as liver doesn't agree with the animal, it can be eliminated. That is dangerous thinking. That is not what the OP was doing, but what the OP has been advised to do. There are other ways to get around it other than omitting liver. Feed small portions, spread out through the week, feed other liver sources, feed freeze dried..and adding the probliotic are ways to start.


But why aren't they to replace liver? if as you say other secreting organs and eggs supply similar nutrients why can't they be used to replace liver if your dog doesn't tolerate liver? they may not contain the same concentration so perhaps you have to feed more to get the same result but I still don't understand why liver absolutely has to be the source.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> But why aren't they to replace liver? if as you say other secreting organs and eggs supply similar nutrients why can't they be used to replace liver if your dog doesn't tolerate liver? they may not contain the same concentration so perhaps you have to feed more to get the same result but I still don't understand why liver absolutely has to be the source.


Because liver supplies nutrients that aren't in the other things, also. The other things are in addition to liver, not in place of. I am not a scientist, nor a nutritionist. I spent a long time reading about raw diets, terrified of them, before venturing in.

One of the things I learned in all my reading is, when feeding a fresh food diet, liver is essential. Since I believe this is so, as do many "animal nutrition experts" whose articles I have read, and all the diet breakdowns and analyses I have looked at, I will advise people that this is so, because I feel it is irrepressible to advise someone it is okay to eliminate an essential part of raw feeding.

I feel it is better to advise on how to help the dog cope with the liver in the diet. Which I have done.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Let me put it another way, speaking very loosely for example only. Both egg yolk and liver provide D and A. But one provides other things that the other doesn't. If you feed more yolk to "replace" liver, you are throwing the whole diet out of balance. Yolk needs a different amount of calcium to balance. Yolk provides more of some things and less of others. Liver , same thing. They do not replace each other, they both should be in the diet for different things, not because of the same things.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

So if I eliminate liver from my dogs diet what actual nutrients will they miss that I can't get elsewhere? 

I've been vegetarian and vegan myself in the past (and did feed my first two dogs on a vegetarian diet for a few years) and managed to obtain all the necessary nutrients, my dogs were fit and healthy too - the GSD who was on it the longest lived to be 13 with no health problems (only ever went to the vets for vaccinations until his back legs failed). The manufacturer of the food he was on (it was called Happy Dog - not the same as a current food by the same name) managed to provide a balanced diet without using liver so I don't understand why you insist it is essential and cannot be replicated elsewhere.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Because liver supplies nutrients that aren't in the other things, also. The other things are in addition to liver, not in place of. I am not a scientist, nor a nutritionist. I spent a long time reading about raw diets, terrified of them, before venturing in.
> 
> One of the things I learned in all my reading is, when feeding a fresh food diet, liver is essential. Since I believe this is so, as do many "animal nutrition experts" whose articles I have read, and all the diet breakdowns and analyses I have looked at, I will advise people that this is so, because I feel it is irrepressible to advise someone it is okay to eliminate an essential part of raw feeding.
> 
> I feel it is better to advise on how to help the dog cope with the liver in the diet. Which I have done.


We have asked you repeatedly to list the nutrients that are unique to liver and which cannot be supplied from other sources, you have singularly failed to do so.

The reason you have failed to do so is

a) because liver does not contain anything unique
b) you are not a scientist
c) you are not a nutritionist
d) you are not a dietician

If you had done all the research you claim you would easily be able to cross reference to a paper which supports your view.

Since you keep demonstrating your singular lack of skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience in this area you continually undermine your own credibility.

You cannot advise people on a subject you know nothing about, if you can, then I will start advising people on how to perform a gastropexy!

Know your limits!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> Let me put it another way, speaking very loosely for example only. Both egg yolk and liver provide D and A. But one provides other things that the other doesn't. If you feed more yolk to "replace" liver, you are throwing the whole diet out of balance. Yolk needs a different amount of calcium to balance. Yolk provides more of some things and less of others. Liver , same thing. They do not replace each other, they both should be in the diet for different things, not because of the same things.


Oh a fact, liver does contain vitamins A and D.

What do eggs provide that liver does not and vice versa.

What amount of calcium is required to balance egg yolk?
What amount of calcium is required to balance liver?

I will make it easy, expressed per 100 g

Nobody has suggested that egg yolks can replace liver, what has been said is that liver contains nothing unique which cannot be supplied by other sources including but not restricted to eggs.


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## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

Sorry to jump on board without reading all of the comments and suggested facts "BUT" where does a dog that is fed on a kibble diet only, and there are quiet a lot out there, get it's "must have" raw liver included in their diet ?
Cooking and processing destroys a great deal of the nutriments in the product so presumably something else must be added to replace this!!
Maybe I am not understanding the situation or just very "blonde"


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

wee man said:


> Sorry to jump on board without reading all of the comments and suggested facts "BUT" where does a dog that is fed on a kibble diet only, and there are quiet a lot out there, get it's "must have" raw liver included in their diet ?
> Cooking and processing destroys a great deal of the nutriments in the product so presumably something else must be added to replace this!!
> Maybe I am not understanding the situation or just very "blonde"


If you look on a bag of food you will see that many of the additives include various vitamins, minerals and indeed amino acids because of this factor.


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## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

So do I understand correctly that all nessacery additives can be added to a kibbled feed?
Therefore they must be able to replace the "must have raw liver" content in a raw diet too!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

wee man said:


> So do I understand correctly that all nessacery additives can be added to a kibbled feed?
> Therefore they must be able to replace the "must have raw liver" content in a raw diet too!


Yes and yes (according to some of us anyway)


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## wee man (Apr 8, 2012)

Just what I thought


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

Guys lets not argue. End of day ive come to a decision. I eill continue to feed liver I will just see what happens so once on full amount see if the bad farts settle down or stop. If not will try different animal liver. 

There no way am I stopping liver when its possible she has a egg allergy I will try eggs soon just not yet as trying raw chicken to see if reacts or not.

as lab results showed the veges were the cause of her urine issues I will not feed her raw veggies and I certainly don't want to add sweet potato as she great shape nice and lean not chubby and healthy.

I appreciate the advice and suggestions . if Still having those bad farts then will buy her a probiotic/digestive supplement once in UK. 

Since been on liver she hardly eats the dog poo in public this is big improvement in happy with. 

Might be be in UK in next few weeks due to gran admitted twice in a month to hospital and not much longer left.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> Guys lets not argue. End of day ive come to a decision. I eill continue to feed liver I will just see what happens so once on full amount see if the bad farts settle down or stop. If not will try different animal liver.
> 
> There no way am I stopping liver when its possible she has a egg allergy I will try eggs soon just not yet as trying raw chicken to see if reacts or not.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your gran. Good luck with your move to the UK and finding a diet to suit your dog. Don't worry we are not arguing we are just discussing the whole liver issue, you will find the most innocent of threads can get quite heated around here but on another thread the same people will be agreeing with each other


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

wee man said:


> Sorry to jump on board without reading all of the comments and suggested facts "BUT" where does a dog that is fed on a kibble diet only, and there are quiet a lot out there, get it's "must have" raw liver included in their diet ?
> Cooking and processing destroys a great deal of the nutriments in the product so presumably something else must be added to replace this!!
> Maybe I am not understanding the situation or just very "blonde"


We aren't talking about kibble here. We are talking about raw feeding. The purpose of raw feeding, presumably, is to feed the dog fresh foods, in the correct balance. The raw feeder doesn't want to feed a bag of processed foods and chemicals, the raw feeder feeds raw to avoid all that. That's the whole point.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> We aren't talking about kibble here. We are talking about raw feeding. The purpose of raw feeding, presumably, is to feed the dog fresh foods, in the correct balance. The raw feeder doesn't want to feed a bag of processed foods and chemicals, the raw feeder feeds raw to avoid all that. That's the whole point.


Unfortunately you appear to be unable to tell us all what the correct balance is, so nobody is any the wiser................

Funny how when push comes to shove you cannot support any of your opinions with actual data 

Some of us who raw feed also feed all sorts of other stuff.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> Guys lets not argue. End of day ive come to a decision. I eill continue to feed liver I will just see what happens so once on full amount see if the bad farts settle down or stop. If not will try different animal liver.
> 
> There no way am I stopping liver when its possible she has a egg allergy I will try eggs soon just not yet as trying raw chicken to see if reacts or not.
> 
> ...


Don't forget you can use other kinds of eggs besides chicken. Availability may be a problem depending on where you live. I don't have any access to anything but chicken eggs, I use an organic non GMO fed brand. There is also the option of going organic eggs.

Good luck with it all, hope you can eliminate the farts. The probiotic will definitely help. I'm sorry to hear about your gran. x


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2016)

lorilu said:


> We are talking about raw feeding. The purpose of raw feeding, presumably, is to feed the dog fresh foods, in the correct balance. The raw feeder doesn't want to feed a bag of processed foods and chemicals, the raw feeder feeds raw to avoid all that. That's the whole point.


Not to go off on even more of a tangent, but there is more than one purpose to raw feeding. I feed a combination of sometimes raw, sometimes home cooked, sometimes kibble, sometimes a combination of things. I know many a raw feeder who has absolutely no issue feeding their dogs a "bag of processed foods and chemicals", raw just happens to be cheaper for them and their dogs enjoy it. But if they're traveling or boarding the dogs eat kibble no problem.

Basically I think you should be careful making absolute statements about the purpose of raw feeding and speaking for all those who feed raw and what they want and don't want.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Not to go off on even more of a tangent, but there is more than one purpose to raw feeding.
> <snip>
> Basically I think you should be careful making absolute statements about the purpose of raw feeding and speaking for all those who feed raw and what they want and don't want.


Yes, there are many reasons people choose to feed a raw diet.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry to hear about your gran. Good luck with your move to the UK and finding a diet to suit your dog. Don't worry we are not arguing we are just discussing the whole liver issue, you will find the most innocent of threads can get quite heated around here but on another thread the same people will be agreeing with each other


Thank you re my gran she 86 soon and its getting too close for comfort with it being last month she was in hospital and now this month and only few weeks out before back in and all the way in new zealand not much can do so its tearing me apart. its part the reason well one of the big reasons moving to UK with dad adn my Jessie(avater dog) Also thanks for the good luck with the move that is needed for sure so good for you to say that! and as for a diet agree with her well i am hoping changing liver source will help eg pig liver instead of lamb as could be less rich etc its all trial and error. I have tried 98% dry foods in new zealand for her either her belly turns red and burns to touch it, itchy, dandruff, hair loss, chews paws non stop, bad gas, loose mucusy poo. THEN the dry food causes cystitis, HIGH Ph of her urine (due to fruit and veg) as well as the rest. so dry food isnt a option esp as tried chicken, duck, salmon/fish,hypoallergenic foods, with other protiens she reacts to every protien in some way in dry foods no jokes so she is special needs dog.

Sorry it looked like arguing and i have to say its first time on this forum when i been on that its been so heated that im not used to it and i can take things the wrong day due to disabilities i have.



lorilu said:


> Don't forget you can use other kinds of eggs besides chicken. Availability may be a problem depending on where you live. I don't have any access to anything but chicken eggs, I use an organic non GMO fed brand. There is also the option of going organic eggs.
> 
> Good luck with it all, hope you can eliminate the farts. The probiotic will definitely help. I'm sorry to hear about your gran. x


Speaking of chicken i just tested her last night with small piece raw chicken her skin is clear no itching unless you count her cleaning sanitary area! so excitied but cooked chicken flares her skin up its very intresting.



lorilu said:


> Yes, there are many reasons people choose to feed a raw diet.


Yes there is as i mentioned above no dry food agrees with Jessie I have tried all dry food availbile to me even from purina tux, optimum, my dog, eukanuba which she came with along side alot of other foods like ultra dog food, acana, go, now fresh you name it we had samples sent to us and if it wasnt her skin flaring up red and scorching hot or dandruff itching chewing paws and the rest like bad gas loose mucusy poo, hair loss, cystitis and urine problems even struitive crystals. Raw was my last option im hoping now we are on the full amount of liver the farts settle down and im trying to give tripe daily atm till i can find a decent probiotic for her in new zealand or UK.

i will post a pic of Jessie soon her coat is fantastic body condition fantastic nice and slim not under or overweight not chubby, lots of life in her, happy and cant wait till next meal time she loves her raw food!


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

okay the chicken i thought went well till 24 hours later up 3 times during night with puddles when went for poops  so wont try it for some time an dthen re test to see if indeed it was that. but if she like that with chciken will it be same with duck?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> okay the chicken i thought went well till 24 hours later up 3 times during night with puddles when went for poops  so wont try it for some time an dthen re test to see if indeed it was that. but if she like that with chciken will it be same with duck?


It appears to me that your dog has so many dietary issues she may be better on a hydrolised diet such as Hills Z/d ultra.

Surely all this experimentation with her food cannot be good for her?


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> okay the chicken i thought went well till 24 hours later up 3 times during night with puddles when went for poops  so wont try it for some time an dthen re test to see if indeed it was that. *but if she like that with chciken will it be same with duck?*


Not necessarily. My dog is raw fed and chicken gives her the squits. She's fine with raw duck, also raw turkey. She is also fine when the chicken is cooked, just can't take it raw.

She doesn't like raw kidney, not that it upsets her but she just doesn't like it so I pour boiling water over it and leave it to stand for a few minutes, it seals it like part cooking, I have also flash fried it, she eats in fine then. Maybe you could try that with a small amount of raw offal to see of it helps.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> It appears to me that your dog has so many dietary issues she may be better on a hydrolised diet such as Hills Z/d ultra.
> 
> Surely all this experimentation with her food cannot be good for her?


I feel annoyed at this because we have tried every dry food available including hills z/d which didn't even help a tiny bit and ended up with bad farts even tried her on royal canin an allergenic still problems . Dry food she can't tolerate at all with so many problems ive already mentioned on dry food. Raw she has no skin or urine issues she is healthy and happy. She loves her raw and just because her body can't handle chicken in any form and because bad farts you think I should go back to dry foid where she will suffer urine crystals cystitis high urine oh inflamed skin , itch get dandruff and heaps more? ! Remind me bot yo come ask for help on here regarding her diet


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> I feel annoyed at this because we have tried every dry food available including hills z/d which didn't even help a tiny bit and ended up with bad farts even tried her on royal canin an allergenic still problems . Dry food she can't tolerate at all with so many problems ive already mentioned on dry food. Raw she has no skin or urine issues she is healthy and happy. She loves her raw and just because her body can't handle chicken in any form and because bad farts you think I should go back to dry foid where she will suffer urine crystals cystitis high urine oh inflamed skin , itch get dandruff and heaps more? ! Remind me bot yo come ask for help on here regarding her diet


You will get lots of excellent advice on here but it is a forum where we all discuss our opinions and ideas and yes we have quite heated debates. If you don't like the opinion someone offers then ignore it, or you can put the member on ignore if you don't want to read their posts - just click on their name - a box will come up and the last thing written in green to the right says Ignore - if you click that you won't see posts by that person.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

DirtyGertie said:


> Not necessarily. My dog is raw fed and chicken gives her the squits. She's fine with raw duck, also raw turkey. She is also fine when the chicken is cooked, just can't take it raw.
> 
> She doesn't like raw kidney, not that it upsets her but she just doesn't like it so I pour boiling water over it and leave it to stand for a few minutes, it seals it like part cooking, I have also flash fried it, she eats in fine then. Maybe you could try that with a small amount of raw offal to see of it helps.


Her farts have decreased I fasted her a meal and she been getting green tripe daily since today includes organ and tripe so will see what happens but should settle down now reached full amount organs but might try include it daily from Monday if get bad farts today maybe 6gm a day will help decrease the fart smell or the farts. It's about finding what works for her and when i get to UK i will see about another liver source or just find a digestive supplement to help her which is tripe now on daily basis atm just because money is a bit tight with emmigrating and having to save up for the worming and anti nausea injection she requires before flying to UK or she will vomit alot.

Im glad to hear she may not get the squirts on duck necks will try it next week give her a break allow her guts a break. was so excitited as her skin didnt flare up all was well until 10pm tuesday evening but with allergy kids this is the perk to raw diet you know what they can have and cant. next morning she was hungry as so gave green tripe then fasted her overnight and no poo yesterday which is good news so see how we go today as held off giving her offal yesterday till now. I did at one stage skip the organs for a week to give her a break. end of day i have tried so many dry foods with her including hydrolized diets both hills and royal canin. all dry foods give her cystitis, urine PH problems, itchy dry skin with dandruff, itchy paws loose stools, bad gas, mucusy poop , struitive crystals they even infected her anal glands till had to get them removed! and much much more .so theres no way she going off a raw diet like smokeybear suggested! the raw diet fixed her urine ph in 3 days when it was pre made prey model raw and just in january started 80 10 10 diet. plus all kibble has fruits and veggies and everything she cant have in them and she only would suffer again and we spent over 5000NZD on her in the first 2 years of her life trying to sort out her problems and what was causing it. in the end dry food was causing all her problems


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> okay the chicken i thought went well till 24 hours later up 3 times during night with puddles when went for poops  so wont try it for some time an dthen re test to see if indeed it was that. but if she like that with chciken will it be same with duck?


I think you may be okay with other poultry proteins, the key is slow slow slow, when you try something new. And I know I am repeating myself but you've really got to get her on a probiotic. A good one.

And another idea I thought of today on my walk, is to suggest you join a raw feeding group, specifically an IBD raw feeding group for dogs if you can find one. I belong to the feline version, and the people are wonderful, some of them post about their dogs, too. You could start there and ask for guidance on what group to join. It's a closed group so I will send you the link privately.

I bet there is one for dogs too. Even if you aren't on facebook, it may be worth your while to make an account, just to belong to the group.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You will get lots of excellent advice on here but it is a forum where we all discuss our opinions and ideas and yes we have quite heated debates. If you don't like the opinion someone offers then ignore it, or you can put the member on ignore if you don't want to read their posts - just click on their name - a box will come up and the last thing written in green to the right says Ignore - if you click that you won't see posts by that person.


Sorry for going off on one there! i just felt very strongly about it because i dont want her to suffer like she used to on dry food and we spent over 5000NZD trying to sort the problems out k9 natural didnt sort them but but pre made prey model raw did and her urine ph was normal in 3 days of being on it. since then her problems have been fixed and spent way less time and money at the vets the vet is surprised to be honest but pleased she is thriving on the raw diet and her problems have gone. only had 2 consults last year and 1 this year for her vaccines and rabies vaccine. nearly had one for ear and paws but they settled down which is good and thats just enviromental.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

lorilu said:


> I think you may be okay with other poultry proteins, the key is slow slow slow, when you try something new. And I know I am repeating myself but you've really got to get her on a probiotic. A good one.
> 
> And another idea I thought of today on my walk, is to suggest you join a raw feeding group, specifically an IBD raw feeding group for dogs if you can find one. I belong to the feline version, and the people are wonderful, some of them post about their dogs, too. You could start there and ask for guidance on what group to join. It's a closed group so I will send you the link privately.
> 
> I bet there is one for dogs too. Even if you aren't on facebook, it may be worth your while to make an account, just to belong to the group.


i come across https://www.superfoodsnz.co.nz/gentle-digest-includes-prebiotics-probiotics-60 would that be good? i am looking into it in between having to make sure nothinggets packed i will need for next 3 months . it was only a 3cm x 3cm piece of chicken thigh and didnt give anymore i got all excitied as she didnt react skin wise ad thought all good will give her some more in the morning then 10pm bam mummmy im not feeling great i urgently need to poop from Jessie she rushed down those stairs into the garden and oh my quite some puddles after a bit of soft poop then every time she pooped again pure liquid. poor girl not giving it again. I am on facebook and see you messaged me so will reply now thanks so much!


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> You will get lots of excellent advice on here but it is a forum where we all discuss our opinions and ideas and yes we have quite heated debates. If you don't like the opinion someone offers then ignore it, or you can put the member on ignore if you don't want to read their posts - just click on their name - a box will come up and the last thing written in green to the right says Ignore - if you click that you won't see posts by that person.


Also on the dog forum i had been using i didnt have that option so i had no idea i could do this thanks!


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> i come across https://www.superfoodsnz.co.nz/gentle-digest-includes-prebiotics-probiotics-60 would that be good? i am looking into it in between having to make sure nothinggets packed i will need for next 3 months . it was only a 3cm x 3cm piece of chicken thigh and didnt give anymore i got all excitied as she didnt react skin wise ad thought all good will give her some more in the morning then 10pm bam mummmy im not feeling great i urgently need to poop from Jessie she rushed down those stairs into the garden and oh my quite some puddles after a bit of soft poop then every time she pooped again pure liquid. poor girl not giving it again. I am on facebook and see you messaged me so will reply now thanks so much!


I would be concerned about the rice flour and chicory root. I don't know anything about the chicory root, but any grain is going to be inflammatory.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

lorilu said:


> I would be concerned about the rice flour and chicory root. I don't know anything about the chicory root, but any grain is going to be inflammatory.


Chicory root contains inulin which is a valuable prebiotic essential to gut health, prebiotics feed probiotics (something you were recommending)  They have a synergistic effect.

I am not aware of the science which states "any grain is going to be inflammatory"

But I am sure you can provide a link?


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

lorilu said:


> I would be concerned about the rice flour and chicory root. I don't know anything about the chicory root, but any grain is going to be inflammatory.


ok wont go with it then i did find something else innherhealth plus and http://www.commonsenseorganics.co.nz/shop-online/health/health-supplements/probiotics/

i need them myself too im having tummy nad gut issues with dairy so we can share them


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

So a quick update: i was going to add probiotic and digestive enzymes to Jessies diet to help her digest fats and organs better but ran it past my vet first and when i went in to weigh my lab charlie and his cousin ozzy while Jess was at groomers the vet talked to me about it and he doesnt know much about them as he very rarely if ever had a dog who needs them for the correct dosing etc. He would rather she didnt have liver at all told him its essential part of the diet so he asked if i can feed it more often eg daily. i really didnt want to but agreed so i prepped a week of meals including 7gm liver 7gm kidney takes forever btw.

However good news is only monday did we get those farts and since i havent smelt one! also ive only seen one poop on my lawn a good one too  the vet wondered if her bowel and guts cant handle the amount given twice a week. he is right. fingers crossed she continues to do well


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

okay spoke too soon............. so im taking liver out next week with tripe with bone in meals and see what happens. so only offal is lamb kidney however this is only temporary to see what is really causing the farts the tripe, kidney or liver. whichever it is i will change the source of the animal and then see where go from there


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

So vet is now ok with me adding a digestive enzyme and i told him how im taking out liver for up to a week but he thinks two weeks be better he is aware of how essential it is to the diet i think he been doing some homework there but i told him its either the lambs liver, lambs kidney or tripe and he agrees. he also agrees it sounds like she isnt digesting the fats properly so i bought up thats why i wanted to try digestive enzymes he was happy for me to give it a go and said it cant do any harm to try it. Only thing is i rang and checked with emirates about if i buy it now for her can i carry it with baggage(check in) and they thought i was on about putting her in suitcase all way from NZ to UK! i had to repeat myself 10 times and really make it clear then he relaxed and said oh you mean dog medication/powder/supplements and i said yes. Id like to buy it now but i thought id check with you guys first and basically am allowed to check it in as long got a letter from vet. Considering the cost over here $50 onwards for 100grams which is like 22 pounds and that i can get it on amazon for 8 pounds cheaper and easier to get it delivered to the house mum found to rent and get it delivered there!

So for next week try kidney daily,meat daily and bone in twice a week and see what happens esp if i give tripe next week or do i forget the tripe? the digestive enzymes contain nothing she is allergic or intolerant to and safe for cats and dogs


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

update havent got teh enzymes yet because of blimming stupid emirates are knob heads when i rang to ask if i can take dog digestive enzymes in my check in baggage they thought i wanted to put my dog in my suitcase then thought i wanted to feed her on the plane! like hell i do that! finally got the answer i wanted and was asking for yes i can but need letter from the vet with what condition she has and why needs them etc. forget it not paying 55 nzd (22 pounds) when get off amazon for 8 pounds! we are just about a week into no liver and monday i gave cube tripe with the liver and meat bone in and 24 hour later oh god those farts so havent given any tripe now and alright if your really close up eg lift covers up to give her a kiss andher bum in your face you smell it otherwise not noticeable atm.

But a few thing have come to my attention

lambs liver has 138% vit A compared to beef liver has 95% is this a problem for some dogs?
she normally gets lambs fry, lambs kidney, lamb brisket(bone in) and lamb tripe is this far too much lamb for her system to cope with if so its the cause of these really bad farts?
can tripe alone cause this bad gas?
since just lambs kidney hardly notice her farts
after putting lambs fry in daily for a few days then removing it after thursday , well thursday/friday evening had pure poo puddle it was like a loud fart and pop and pure liquid poo. Do note last week was a bad week for Jess and i we had all our belongings and her beds packed adn shipped by the moving company and she was very stressed without her favourite bed nothing was normal etc. Since then i dont think she has pooped but will check in morning.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

So right after i posted/not long after the update what happened? got her out for bed time wees she went then came inside then urgently needed to go out she went for poop pure liquid and really smelly she has had direha 5 times since 9 30pm last night with it being 5 48pm atm. here is a summary and based on symptoms esp with scooting on carpet after diareha and always feeling needing to go etc she is in pain i got told

So Jessie been vets. Jessie def some kind of bowel disease he thinks but without tests and colonoscopy cant say which for sure - only do that if things dont improve in next week or so. He examined her to be a little undwerweight but on outside looks ok body condition wise, listened to her guts which were bit noisy and not normal sounding. Based on symptoms especially the bad farts and bad smelling diareha her lethargy, her borderline temp 39.1c it suggested infection of some type to him so given her something to stop the direha shot as well as antibiotics injection. if things dont improve in week or so looking at $350 for colonoscopy and blood tests thank goodness still got insurance and that i renewed it till april!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Shihtzu_lover said:


> update havent got teh enzymes yet because of blimming stupid emirates are knob heads when i rang to ask if i can take dog digestive enzymes in my check in baggage they thought i wanted to put my dog in my suitcase then thought i wanted to feed her on the plane! like hell i do that! finally got the answer i wanted and was asking for yes i can but need letter from the vet with what condition she has and why needs them etc. forget it not paying 55 nzd (22 pounds) when get off amazon for 8 pounds! we are just about a week into no liver and monday i gave cube tripe with the liver and meat bone in and 24 hour later oh god those farts so havent given any tripe now and alright if your really close up eg lift covers up to give her a kiss andher bum in your face you smell it otherwise not noticeable atm.
> 
> But a few thing have come to my attention
> 
> ...


I feel so sorry for your dog, all this experimentation with no real plan and she is still not well.

Nothing can contain more than 100% of anything, so I do not know where you get the idea that lambs liver contains 138% of Vitamin A?

You really need to take the advice of a properly qualified canine nutritionist rather than enthusiastic amateurs who do not know your dog and whose advice, if you take it, could be detrimental to your dog (and that includes mine)


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Is it really worth persevering with the liver? I certainly wouldn't if it was having that effect on my dog


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## Rach&Miko (Oct 28, 2015)

Poor pup...

Sometimes, as much as raw is lorded as the best, for your dog it just isnt.

The best food for any dog is the one they are happy eating, creates decent poos, minimal farts and fits your budget - whether it be Wagg or Raw.

I'd say with all the upset in the food and moving etc. you really need to come up with a proper, recorded plan or move her over to a commercial food of some description - but as said before consult a canine nutrionist first.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

update changed the liver source and added probiotic and she is doing really well also upped her food intake and she gained weight. vet suspect ibd of some sort. commercial foods ive tried all of them available to me all the fruits and veggies cause urine problems, chicken causes dandruff itchy skin , chewing paws and alot more. any fatty meats cause farts and unless theres a rabbit or kangaroo kibble its not a option as raw has cured her urine problems. i looked on here to compare the lambs fry vitamin a content etc http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/recipe/3764717/2

she just needed to get rid of the lamb and fatty meats and change of organ source and since doing really well with the aid of daily probitoic and daily organs.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

i will be in uk in a few days and if the vet suggests a canine nutrionist then i will for sure see one but commercial foods dont agree with her even the hills z/d and anallergenic. end of day i wont let her sufffer urine issues on dry food and im not a cruel owner i perservere and do my absolute best by her and its all trial and error with raw especially as far as organs are concerned seems giving it twice weekly was too much for her poor guts but giving daily and changing the source with aid of probiotic has really helped this thankfully 

rest assured i wont let her or see her suffer and neither will my family.


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## Shihtzu_lover (Dec 20, 2015)

even if the vet doesnt suggest a canine nutrionist and she has problems i will still consult one especially if i feel its needed which right now it isnt but will be needed down the line. I work closely with vets and take thier advice. I also made sure she only got novel low fat protiens which really helped too.


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