# Agility - Please explain



## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

I've just been to observe an agility class.

WTF is that all about.............

Dogs barking, dogs locked in cars barking, dog straining at the leash barking. Ownes shoutingat the ddog to be quiet. People running around screaming........

Can someone please explain to me, how this is good for dogs, 'cos i can't begin to see what this has to do with the natural instincts of dogs. I don't understand or see the benefit of having dogs hyped up in this way. 

Shepherding breeds are suppose to herd aren't they? And why would you put a westie through that or a JRT? 

Tunnels and seesaws??

No doubt there is a scientific explaination to this type of dog training. One lady told me they do dance lesson for dogs to music. PLEASE tell me this has nothing to do with human ego.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Oh come-on, your not telling me you've never seen agility before surely? Where have you been for the last thirty odd years?


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## Irish Setter Gal (Mar 17, 2011)

Agility, per se, does fulfil some of the natural instinctual needs of dogs in that they jump, run, burrow through and run fast, but, and its a big but (not butt :blink dancing with dogs is another thread in itself - bandwagon - moi - wagons roll on that one.

Agility is competitive in an extreme way, stress in all forms (human & dog) can only manifest itself in a bad way. Nobody is more chuffed than me at winning, but in my world excitement is a bad thing to present.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> Oh come-on, your not telling me you've never seen agility before surely? Where have you been for the last thirty odd years?


No, never looked at it that closely before, never needed to, and i don't think I'll go near it again.........I am however, wondering what its all about


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## Doolally (Oct 12, 2010)

I had to give up agility with my dog, he loved it (JRT), absolutely loved running, jumping and loved running up and down the A-frame, but the other dogs barking so much in an enclosed space really stressed him out.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Agility is good for them it's great exercise and mental stimulation my terrier, yes terrier I know it's bad for him right , loves it. It's not so much natural instincts as giving them a job to do essential with some of the top agility breeds such as collies and kelpies. However some humans can get ultra competitive like any area of competition and yes the dogs do suffer. The good agility handlers don't do this however

Dancing with dogs came out of obedience actually there's two types one of which the dog is at heel most of the time, the other only part of it. It looks like a lot of fun and the dogs love it


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

I dont know where you went to see this ,i have been agility training tonight and all dogs were really happy, no barking or dogs shut in cars, myself and my dog had a great time so did all the other dogs at the club i go to


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## edidasa (May 7, 2011)

grandad said:


> I've just been to observe an agility class.
> 
> WTF is that all about.............


I'm not into agility, but i'm into other dog sports.

the idea of ALL the barking, craziness and stupidity is to make a crazy dog that runs faster.

they put the dogs in crates/confined areas so 1. they get rest 2. builds frustration 3. they'll really enjoy listening to you when they come out - so that all the energy can be channelled into behaviours such as running and jumping quickly.

barking is just an effect of frustration on the dogs part.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

edidasa said:


> *bold added - *
> 
> the *idea* of ALL the *barking, craziness & stupidity* is to *make a crazy dog that runs faster.*
> 
> ...


_NOW i have heard everything. Did U think of this Urself, or was it someone else's flash 
of brilliance?... :blink:_

* one of the things that i criticize most in cop-k9s is some eejit who lets her/his k9 become so manic 
that the dog bounces around in the cruiser, making the car rock on all 4 shocks; *this is not 
a good use of the dog's energy - it only bleeds-off the dog's vitality pointlessly & achieves nothing.*

* wasting an agility competitor's energy in jumping, barking or spinning is no more intelligent or helpful. 
it wastes energy for no gain whatever.

* how does *frustrating a dog* make that dog happier or more biddable?
IMO frustration makes dogs _harder_ to control, manage & direct; NOT easier. 
so IME it is directly contraindicated to "make" a dog bark & be crazy.

* when the dog is finally let out, a frustrated dog is not easily channeled; s/he is distracted & manic, 
not ready to work.

barking enthusiastically or excitedly *while they are running* is very different from frustrated, pointless 
yapping while crated or waiting; just as Huskies can be taught _'whoa',_ an agility competitor can be taught 
to _'hush',_ & conserve their energy for the game rather than squander it & wind themselves into mania.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

grandad said:


> I've just been to observe an agility class


Take a peek - YouTube - Building Drive by 'being' a Bad Dog Trainer

My agility class was mostly calm & quiet, the first few weeks, with just a few dogs reacting to dogs racing past them out the tunnel for example, then the dogs started to discover they enjoyed it. Now quite a lot of handler skill is needed to keep the dogs safe, and calm them down and control them, when another dog's turn to be the goer off leash.

I think you have a point, if you hype a dog up, you have the responsibility to know how to help it calm down. I'll be attending a competition to observe this weekend, so will be on look out, for such tactics.

The way I rev up my dog, is simply get him to look at what he's going to do, and let him know he's working. I'm quite proud of how mad keen on play he is one minute, but then transforms into a sociable dog once he's off duty "That'll do!".

The tunnel is loved, our old family pet would follow the toddler during play, crawling through to their delight, and he would then do it on his own to amuse himself.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Take a peek - YouTube - Building Drive by 'being' a Bad Dog Trainer
> 
> My agility class was mostly calm & quiet, the first few weeks, with just a few dogs reacting to dogs racing past them out the tunnel for example, then the dogs started to discover they enjoyed it. Now quite a lot of handler skill is needed to keep the dogs safe, and calm them down and control them, when another dog's turn to be the goer off leash.
> 
> ...


Well, something has gone seriously wrong in the agility world from what I saw last night. I can assume that there are bad agility trainers, like there are bad trainers and bad owners. I certainly wouldn't put my dog into it and I CERTAINLY wouldn't be reccomending it either, based on my first hand and only experience.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

If you were attending a class, then I'd say find a better club with more enlightened trainers, who care more about safety and the dogs well being.

Agility is exciting and fun for the dogs, who has to "build frustration" to get their dog ready to fetch? Those few seconds at the start line on a "Wait!" should be plenty enough, once the dog's warmed up and knows it's action time.

If my dog doesn't enjoy a sport or play activity, it's simple. I'd do something else with him. There's plenty of things he does enjoy.

My dog was nervous of the A-frame at first, very sensible lad, he's not used to heights. Caring patience, and a little revving up, has got him flying up it, and now we are starting to emphasise a stop, so he doesn't start cutting corners and jumping off from a height, and descends in a controlled way.

I'm glad you're seeing the problems, us "cookie coaches", have finding dog sympathetic groups. My experience walking with positively trained dogs and owners is that it's far more enjoyable, as the dogs are happier, more relaxed and behave better! So there's a big incentive for us to help out others.


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

grandad said:


> I've just been to observe an agility class.
> 
> WTF is that all about.............
> 
> ...


We run agility classes but do not have any dogs barking, lunging or owners shouting. Basically as we do not allow it. There is no need for that. If dogs get agitated then we take the dog away from the obstacles and do some watch exercises or so, but dogs that train with us generally do not bark, basically because the way we have set up our agility training keeps the dogs occupied all the time and they do not have to wait at the side and get bored.

We do agility because our dogs like it, we like it and it is fun. I also compete in HtM or dogdance. Why? Nothing to do with my ego, but just because it is fun to express yourself to music, to teach your dog some moves that are not needed for obedience but just because it is fun to teach. The sky is the limit in this sport and your can be creative as you are not bound to certain exercises. My dogs love it, so do not see why it would be a problem........


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Hetty said:


> We run agility classes but do not have any dogs barking, lunging or owners shouting. Basically as we do not allow it. There is no need for that. If dogs get agitated then we take the dog away from the obstacles and do some watch exercises or so, but dogs that train with us generally do not bark, basically because the way we have set up our agility training keeps the dogs occupied all the time and they do not have to wait at the side and get bored


That's great!

One thing I notice to that the dogs tend to mirror their handlers, when you see a calm secure settled dog notice the calm confident owner. When you see that "hyper" dog, notice the manic inconsistent handling and yelling.

The stuckists can protest all they like, but I know my dog learns quicker because I keep him able to learn and he's learnt he can trust me, absolutely.


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## critter (Sep 14, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> _NOW i have heard everything. Did U think of this Urself, or was it someone else's flash
> of brilliance?... :blink:_
> 
> * one of the things that i criticize most in cop-k9s is some eejit who lets her/his k9 become so manic
> ...


Hi, I'm with Grandad as I've never seen agility, but, would like to! (I've seen snippets on the TV), LFL, from your post I gather that you are not in agreement with agility, surely an excited dog is happier than one just sat at home? do your comments (in Bold) suggest that an agility trainer/handler is a better trainer/handler than any other trainer?, we are always being encouraged to find things to exercise our dogs brains as well as their bodies, doesn't agility fall into this category, or am I viewing the whole subject wrong?, I am genuinely interested in this as I am always looking for things for my dog to do!, apologies to the OP for hijacking your post it's just something I am curious about. wayne.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

critter said:


> LFL, from your post I gather that you are not in agreement with agility, surely an excited dog is happier than one just sat at home?


The way I understood LFL's post, was actually that it's the penning in vehicles, and psyching-up rituals that she objects to.

If you do a technical performance sport, over arousal before a competition, is actually one of the factors that causes poor performance. Motivation out the start gate, never is, remember you put the work in because you love it. Even those fighting in boxing, must have to keep a clear head, it's the calculating skilfull fighter that wins in general, not the ones who charge in with a red mist.

Many of us think, grandad just saw a bad agility club operating.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

[*QUOTE=grandad;2466160]No, never looked at it that closely before, never needed to, and i don't think I'll go near it again.........I am however, wondering what its all about[/QUOTE]*

Well its dogs competing against the clock on an obstacle course....!!

I should visit a flyball tournament next - the noise is much worse -LOL


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I have to say i can see the fun in agility for the dogs and when they are doing it properly they look like they are having fun but i don't get the Dancing Dogs thing 

It always leaves me cold and some of the positions (to me) look unnatural to the dog and like they put un necessary pressure on joints.

I like my dog to be a dog not a performing puppet, but thats obviously personal choice. I just don't get it


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Twiggy said:


> [*QUOTE=grandad;2466160]No, never looked at it that closely before, never needed to, and i don't think I'll go near it again.........I am however, wondering what its all about*




Well its dogs competing against the clock on an obstacle course....!!

I should visit a flyball tournament next - the noise is much worse -LOL [/QUOTE]

I think I'm coming to the opinion, with fly ball, dog dance and agility that it's more for the owner/handler than the dog. It is in essence more like a circus act than a sport. 
The sooner animal circus/dolphin/whale shows are banned the better, by the way.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

grandad said:


> I think I'm coming to the opinion, with fly ball, dog dance and agility that it's more for the owner/handler than the dog


Oh dear, you should have seen Richard Curtis's dogs, longing to be the one that trained with him, watching whilst it was another's turn.

With certain breed of dog, they're going to find plenty things to do, so if you won't make the choices they will, and you most probably won't be happy about their decisions.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Again, I think it depends on the dog, the handler & the environment. 

I started attending flyball training (although we did compete a couple of times my intention was never serious) & Toby LOVED the training. As soon as we drove up & he saw the park he would get very excited. He loved meeting all the other dogs & really seemed to enjoy his 'turn'

We then attended a couple of competitions & it did put me off a bit. There was a lot of hanging around which I got bored with & I think Toby did. It was VERY noisy at one indoor event which didn't seem to bother Toby but did me! I also drive quite a bit in the week & didn't fancy driving to competions at weekends.

Some people take it very seriously & I did question whether they were thinking of their dogs best interests but the majority I saw did not act this way.

One lady who attended a flyball training sessions was told not to come back again as despite it being her & her dogs first session she was shouting at the poor dog all the time. It was awful - all of us in the starter group were horrified. Our dogs made loads of 'mistakes' as did we, but we were all able to laugh about it & enjoy the training. 

Unfortunately we don't attend anymore as I realised that I wanted to do flyball for fun & not competitively. I'll just have to find a fun class class rather than join a competing team.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

grandad said:


> [/B]
> 
> Well its dogs competing against the clock on an obstacle course....!!
> 
> I should visit a flyball tournament next - the noise is much worse -LOL


I think I'm coming to the opinion, with fly ball, dog dance and agility that it's more for the owner/handler than the dog. It is in essence more like a circus act than a sport. 
The sooner animal circus/dolphin/whale shows are banned the better, by the way.[/QUOTE]

I think agility and fly ball have their place in terms of bored working dogs living in pet homes. It must give them a vent/release for pent up energy and lack of mental stimulation. As these classes are widely available to all dog owners now it probabaly means a few less bored and frustrated dogs at the rescue centres because this is exercise that owners can fit in to a week (like an exercise class or evening class for themselves)

Not everyone has loads of time/resource/knowledge to dedicate one to one to their dog and alot of people are "fairweather" and dont walk as far in the inclement months so at least these dogs are getting some exercise and stimulation ???.

I do however think more emphasis should be placed on getting really good basics before a dog starts agility or flyball as a "hobby". Thats how i see it anyway, personally i would rather be tramping through the woods for an hour but it's a personal choice and my dog doesn't need anymore than he gets already to keep him happy.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> _NOW i have heard everything. Did U think of this Urself, or was it someone else's flash
> of brilliance?... :blink:_
> 
> * one of the things that i criticize most in cop-k9s is some eejit who lets her/his k9 become so manic
> ...


Crikey, Terry - we've found something on which we actually agree!!! 

Like you, when I watch agility I see dogs who are excited and happy about what they are doing and who are barking enthusiastically, not dogs who have been deliberately restrained to be frustrated and manic. As you say, it would be impossible to control a manic dog on an agility course. As for the dogs in vans and crates who the OP saw barking - I'd bet they were barking because they couldn't wait for their turn!


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I think in our case flyball was really beneficial for us as it gave Toby the chance to interact with alot of other dogs, we could both learn to control his enthusiasm (for the tennis ball - he loves them!) by getting him to wait his turn, get him to focus on what he was doing (retrieving the ball back over the jumps) & practice his recall with lots of distractions (other dogs, tennis balls, people, etc) 

Last time we went to a companion dog show & he saw a flyball box (there were lots of different events to try) his tail started wagging & he dragged me over there for a go


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

RAINYBOW said:


> I have to say i can see the fun in agility for the dogs and when they are doing it properly they look like they are having fun but i don't get the Dancing Dogs thing
> 
> It always leaves me cold and some of the positions (to me) look unnatural to the dog and like they put un necessary pressure on joints.
> 
> I like my dog to be a dog not a performing puppet, but thats obviously personal choice. I just don't get it


What positions are unnatural? Dogs standing on their hind legs? Actually a lot of dogs stand on their hind legs naturally in order to get something or have a better view of something (looking over the fence or so). Dog dance is not the best word for freestyle and heelwork to music anyway, as the dogs do not dance, they just do modified obedience type behaviours with music. So together, the handler and dog give their interpretation of the music.

You do not have to do it to perform or to compete, you can used teach your dog a lot of behaviours because it is fun to teach them. Not everything has to have a reason, some things are just nice to do. I think my dogs would disagree with you that it can't be fun for them, as they ask to do these things....they love to train them and we even sometimes see them do these moves and incorporate them in their play with other dogs.

All dog sports are there because it is fun for owner and hopefully the dog. If a dog doesn't like to do something you will have to put in a lot of force to make them. In that case you will not be able to do a routine in HtM or freestyle with force as dogs simply will not do it while you are in the ring, as they will soon find out that you can not use force in the ring and that leaves them to do whatever they like to do.

I do not use force in training, just R+ and my dogs love to train. I like to see what silly things I can teach them apart from the normal obedience, agility, herding, barrel racing.......


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Hetty said:


> What positions are unnatural? Dogs standing on their hind legs? Actually a lot of dogs stand on their hind legs naturally in order to get something or have a better view of something (looking over the fence or so). Dog dance is not the best word for freestyle and heelwork to music anyway, as the dogs do not dance, they just do modified obedience type behaviours with music. So together, the handler and dog give their interpretation of the music.
> 
> You do not have to do it to perform or to compete, you can used teach your dog a lot of behaviours because it is fun to teach them. Not everything has to have a reason, some things are just nice to do. I think my dogs would disagree with you that it can't be fun for them, as they ask to do these things....they love to train them and we even sometimes see them do these moves and incorporate them in their play with other dogs.
> 
> ...


Like i said... I personally don't get it, please don't take it personally, if you and your dog enjoy it and you are happy its safe then go for it .

I don't believe i said they didn't have fun either and i certainly never suggested there was any force involved  Clearly these things are taught in a positive way however for me personally i think it is more about a handler showing off their skills than any real benefit to the dog that they couldn't get just having fun on a walk but i accept some people want to do more than just walk their dog.

I don't like it when they are jumping on their back legs for prolonged periods as i have seen before, this was what i was referring to as unnatural and potentially bad for joints .


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## Statler (Jan 3, 2011)

im sure the original breeders of border collies are resting peacefully in their graves knowing that all their hard work comes in useful teaching them to dance for applause 

on a serious note i actually like watching agility and flyball, and do admire people like Mary ray and Richard Curtis although i cant help feeling a little uncomfortable watching doggie dancing, it just doesnt sit right


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

I think I do a bit of uncultured doggy dancing natural style and without the music. If you do offleash heeling work anyway, and have a velcro-ish dog then it virtually crops up naturally.

The comments on extreme tricks could apply to anything. In my view, if force and coercion is absent from your training regime, there's a limit to the distress a dog would suffer, you keep training short and try and avoid point where the dog gives signs of losing interest.

I'm sure the original breeders of Border Collies rest more peacefully, knowing thanks to their hard work those pups & dogs that don't make the WSD grade, can find homes to live happily rather than being destroyed, like in the good ole days.


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

Statler said:


> im sure the original breeders of border collies are resting peacefully in their graves knowing that all their hard work comes in useful teaching them to dance for applause


Actually, the breeder of my dogs, who has been breeding border collies over 30 years, is actually really proud of my doggies  They do not only do freestyle though, we also like to do herding, agility, obedience, long walks, barrel racing and most of all cuddling and kisses  The last is of course most important :tongue_smilie:


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

*I do however think more emphasis should be placed on getting really good basics before a dog starts agility or flyball as a "hobby". Thats how i see it anyway, personally i would rather be tramping through the woods for an hour but it's a personal choice and my dog doesn't need anymore than he gets already to keep him happy.*

Actually when agility took off in the UK in the 80's, most classes were run by KC registered dog training clubs and most insisted that the dogs were up to novice standard obedience before they were allowed to join an agility class.

Sadly not the case nowadays, so Grandad does have a point.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I've just finished an agility taster course.

Dixie was so impatient and whhinged when it wasn't her turn.
She skipped a few jumps last night because she wanted to get to her fave parts that are the walkway and the A frame! Lol

Two out of the 5 dogs that came back after the first night passed. The two that didn't, were the barky lab and the aggressive collie. 

Dixie is always eager to get there and as soon as the car pulls into the drive for the place, she wants to get out! Lol


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Hetty said:


> What positions are unnatural? Dogs standing on their hind legs? Actually a lot of dogs stand on their hind legs naturally in order to get something or have a better view of something (looking over the fence or so). Dog dance is not the best word for freestyle and heelwork to music anyway, as the dogs do not dance, they just do modified obedience type behaviours with music. So together, the handler and dog give their interpretation of the music.
> 
> You do not have to do it to perform or to compete, you can used teach your dog a lot of behaviours because it is fun to teach them. Not everything has to have a reason, some things are just nice to do. I think my dogs would disagree with you that it can't be fun for them, as they ask to do these things....they love to train them and we even sometimes see them do these moves and incorporate them in their play with other dogs.
> 
> ...


and hopefully the dog? don't you know? I guess the only way that a dog would enjoy this is through bribery not force.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> and *hopefully the dog*? don't you know? I guess the only way that a dog would enjoy this is through bribery not force.


Well not until you tried it I suppose! I wanted to try flyball training as I knew Toby loved tennis balls, enjoyed being with other dogs & needed to lose some weight so it seemed ideal for us.

I didn't have to bribe him to do anything, once he 'got' what he hadf to do he loved it, it was making him wait his turn that was the most difficult buit that was good practice in itself. If he hadn't of enjoyed it we wouldn't have continued to go.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Have you ever seen the top trainers doing HTM? Look up Mary Rae or Richard Curtis. Their dogs clearly love what they're doing a lot of it is obedience behaviours and the routine is adapted to the dog's physical abilities any breed can do it. A dog should never be forced to do an activity but if they enjoy it why not? Dogs have no concept of shame or being demeaned all they know is they're doing this fun thing with their human and getting treats for it, the majority of HTM dogs are clicker trained. What's not to love?


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Have you ever seen the top trainers doing HTM? Look up Mary Rae or Richard Curtis. Their dogs clearly love what they're doing a lot of it is obedience behaviours and the routine is adapted to the dog's physical abilities any breed can do it. A dog should never be forced to do an activity but if they enjoy it why not? Dogs have no concept of shame or being demeaned all they know is they're doing this fun thing with their human and getting treats for it, the majority of HTM dogs are clicker trained. What's not to love?


At the end of the day it is still a circus act. You can do it with a dog, a bear, a monkey, an elephant, a horse, a dolphin, your own children and to get them to do it, is to bribe them. 
Sorry, but it doesn't sit with me, and the more people who condone this, the worse it will get. It is demeaning to the animal, whatever species you wish to discuss.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

So a dog in an obedience competition is a circus act? A lot of HTM moves especially just HTM and not the freestyle is done with the dogs at perfect heel and a lot of the others are obedience moves. It came out of someone putting an obedience routine to music.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> At the end of the day it is still a circus act. You can do it with a dog, a bear, a monkey, an elephant, a horse, a dolphin, your own children and to get them to do it, is to bribe them.
> Sorry, but it doesn't sit with me, and the more people who condone this, the worse it will get. *It is demeaning to the animal*, whatever species you wish to discuss.


How can it be demeaning


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

is there a scientific explaination for this kind of training. Has anyone done any testing to see if stress levels increase, hormonal levels, heart rates, breathing etc.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Some people feel teaching a dog tricks is demeaning while telling their dogs when to eat, when and where to go to the toilet and controlling most of their lives . I'd say that's more demeaning than teaching them tricks that they enjoy as long as they're not forced to it and harsh methods aren't used there's no problem with it IMO. Just look at the bond between the HTM handlers and their dogs.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> is there a scientific explaination for this kind of training. Has anyone done any testing to see if stress levels increase, hormonal levels, heart rates, breathing etc.


I thought Toby & I were having 'fun' when we attended flyball training sessions - I didn't realise this had to be scientifically explained :blink:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Just look at the poor miserable demeaned border collie clearly hating every second of it 
YouTube - Richard Curtis Heelwork To Music Crufts 2011


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

We did agility after the aggressive dog class because we needed to be able to control the dog when he was excited. Which is how I found out that Daisy loves it! No bribes required - she just loves jumping etc. The problen is I needed oxygen cos I`m old and not very athletic. :blush: So we have a go occasionally - very slowly. 
She also loved doing HTM. Because she loves to learn and she loves my undivided attention. I don`t use treats - her reward is play so it`s not a question of bribery. 
I find it rather sad that someone finds the idea of a dog using its brain and athletic grace `demeaning`.
It`s rather like saying Dressage is demeaning to horses.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> We did agility after the aggressive dog class because we needed to be able to control the dog when he was excited. Which is how I found out that Daisy loves it! No bribes required - she just loves jumping etc. The problen is I needed oxygen cos I`m old and not very athletic. :blush: So we have a go occasionally - very slowly.
> She also loved doing HTM. Because she loves to learn and she loves my undivided attention. I don`t use treats - her reward is play so it`s not a question of bribery.
> I find it rather sad that someone finds the idea of a dog using its brain and athletic grace `demeaning`.
> It`s rather like saying Dressage is demeaning to horses.


Would you say that if you saw another species dancing to music? A wild animal that had been taken from it's mother and from it's environment to perform for the public. But I suppose it's okay for dogs to do it, or is it really for the owner self gratification. Worse still, are those that earn a living by this type of performance.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

grandad said:


> Would you say that if you saw another species dancing to music? *A wild animal that had been taken from it's mother and from it's environment to perform for the public*. But I suppose it's okay for dogs to do it, or is it really for the owner self gratification. Worse still, are those that earn a living by this type of performance.


That's not a domesticated pet then ..... & I thought it was dog sports that was the topic


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

I don't need to bribe my dog to do agilily! She WANTS to do it.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

How is a bear or lion ripped away from it's mother at a few hours old and beaten or tortured until it does "tricks" even comparable?


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

grandad said:


> Would you say that if you saw another species dancing to music? A wild animal that had been taken from it's mother and from it's environment to perform for the public. But I suppose it's okay for dogs to do it, or is it really for the owner self gratification. Worse still, are those that earn a living by this type of performance.


Dogs don`t dance. The owner cues them to do moves to a routine, and music plays. If you think that`s dancing, you really need to watch Strictly! 
The rest of your post is irrelevant and off topic so I`ll ignore.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Although my opinion won't change. Lets get back on topic. Scientific evidence anyone?


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

Agility, dog dancing, obedience training.
These types of dog sports have a very positive reputation and are associated with happy co-operative dogs. However the high pace and performance pressure involved are causes for concern, particularly when the dog is expected to win a trophy for the owner.
From "Stress in Dogs" by Clarissa von Reinhardt.
From the same book under the heading of stress symptons, "shaking is an indicator that a dog finds a situation exhausting"
Interesting that in the video clip the collie can be seen shaking it's head several times.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> How is a bear or lion ripped away from it's mother at a few hours old and beaten or tortured until it does "tricks" even comparable?


And you quote John Holmes ???


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Dogs don`t dance. The owner cues them to do moves to a routine, and music plays. If you think that`s dancing, you really need to watch Strictly!
> The rest of your post is irrelevant and off topic so I`ll ignore.


Music, Cues = Dancing


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

PoisonGirl said:


> I don't need to bribe my dog to do agilily! She WANTS to do it.


Does she have a choice?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

PoisonGirl said:


> I don't need to bribe my dog to do agilily! She WANTS to do it.


My dogs want to do agility too. The younger one is keener, the older getting to the point where she doesn't always want to do it. Fair enough



grandad said:


> Although my opinion won't change. Lets get back on topic. Scientific evidence anyone?


Scientific studies don't come cheap, and are invasive to the dogs if you want to test hormone levels etc. I for one would not allow my dogs to go through the stress of having blood taken to satisfy your curiosity. If you want this sort of proof, fund it yourself and experiment on your own dogs.



grandad said:


> Does she have a choice?


Of course the dogs have a choice. They are off lead and if they don't want to jump etc you can't make them.

Many dogs love agility, they want to do something co-operative with their human handlers. One of mine (the older) sometimes barks when waiting for her turn but is easily distracted. The young one doesn't bark at all but runs like a rocket when released (I leave her in a wait on the start line). I've seen dogs come to training that aren't up for it and the owners see that and don't persist. 
Personally, I like to know more about something than one brief experience before sounding off and making comments that those of us involved in agility can see have little merit and virtually no understanding.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> My dogs want to do agility too. The younger one is keener, the older getting to the point where she doesn't always want to do it. Fair enough
> 
> Scientific studies don't come cheap, and are invasive to the dogs if you want to test hormone levels etc. I for one would not allow my dogs to go through the stress of having blood taken to satisfy your curiosity. If you want this sort of proof, fund it yourself and experiment on your own dogs.
> 
> ...


In a public forum, isn't one allowed to ask the question and seek more knowledge about the subject. Agility - Please explain. 
I guess my experience was a bad one, but there are a few other posters who agree. So not just me sounding off as you so rudely put it.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> My dogs want to do agility too. The younger one is keener, the older getting to the point where she doesn't always want to do it. Fair enough
> 
> Scientific studies don't come cheap, and are invasive to the dogs if you want to test hormone levels etc. I for one would not allow my dogs to go through the stress of having blood taken to satisfy your curiosity. If you want this sort of proof, fund it yourself and experiment on your own dogs.
> 
> ...





lucylastic said:


> Agility, dog dancing, obedience training.
> These types of dog sports have a very positive reputation and are associated with happy co-operative dogs. However the high pace and performance pressure involved are causes for concern, particularly when the dog is expected to win a trophy for the owner.
> From "Stress in Dogs" by Clarissa von Reinhardt.
> From the same book under the heading of stress symptons, "shaking is an indicator that a dog finds a situation exhausting"
> Interesting that in the video clip the collie can be seen shaking it's head several times.


So there is some researched theory on the subject.


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## Hetty (May 7, 2011)

grandad said:


> and hopefully the dog? don't you know? I guess the only way that a dog would enjoy this is through bribery not force.


I know my dogs like it, but I also know not all dogs like dog sports and they still have owners that drag them to such classes. This is why I wrote hopefully.....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucylastic said:


> From 'Stress in Dogs' by Clarissa von Reinhardt.
> ...under the heading of stress [symptoms], "shaking is an indicator that a dog finds a situation exhausting."
> Interesting that in the video clip the collie can be seen shaking [her/his] head several times.


unless the author otherwise stipulated, i'd expect the _'shaking'_ referred to would be limbs and/or body 
shivering strongly, not a dog who shakes their head or does a whole-body shake-off, as if wet by swimming.

i would also disagree with the author, as such shivering or quivering of limbs & / or body can mean LITERAL 
*exhaustion* where the muscles are past recovering, & shake uncontrollably - from running, swimming or other 
violent exertion, generally forced [dragged or driven] or due to an emergency or panic: fall into water 
& they must swim or drown, running in panic on a highway dodging vehicles, fleeing while chased, etc - 
but it does not mean that the *situation* is exhausting, it is a physical fact, not surrounding circs.

such a physically exhausted animal appears very different from a dog who is highly *stressed* or _*distressed*,_ 
which can also be exhibited as shivers or quivers of limbs &/or body; such stress is accompanied by drooling, 
extremely-wide pupils, sweating paw-pads, stress-panting [which is not the same as the deep inhalations 
of intense exertion, stress-panting is rapid & shallow], attempts to flee, freeze or hide, & so on.

*shaking one's head* in isolation from the body, or shaking one's head & then whole-body like a wet-dog, 
is often an expression of relief from anxiety or the physical equivalent of a deep sigh - *there!, that's done...* 
or *~whew...~, glad that's over - now what?*

it is often a self-calming transition from one setting or situation to another; my Akita would often shake-off 
vigorously once we exited the physical-therapy hospital after we had done a series of pet-therapy visits, 
which while she loved it was also tiring & emotionally stressful: patients were in pain or emotional stress 
themselves, the medical staff [who often nabbed us on the fly in the hallways] were worried about 
their patients or had personal concerns, there were conflicting demands to satisfy [costs vs outcome], 
there was a lot going on - her shake-offs were a literal shaking-off of tension which accumulated.

i presume that the *video* U refer to is Richard Curtis' HTM routine? 
the dog does abbreviated shake-offs at 2:40, 2:45 & 3:35 approx, but they do not IMO appear to be stress - 
rather as they are all short, abrupt & one appears to be accompanied by a *sneeze,* they look to me 
like a safety-valve for excitement: the dog is doing something complex & lengthy, which is also great fun.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

critter said:


> LFL, from your post I gather that you are not in agreement with agility, surely an excited dog
> is happier than one just sat at home?
> do your comments (in Bold) suggest that an agility trainer/handler is a better trainer/handler than any other trainer?,
> we are always being encouraged to find things to exercise our dogs brains as well as their bodies, doesn't agility fall into
> ...


not at all!  i think *agility* or *H-T-M* or *freestyle* or *trick routines * are GREAT. :thumbup:

i think exercising dog-brains & dog-bodies is marvelous, & agility, H-T-M and freestyle are all team-sports: 
unlike herding competitions where the dog moves & we direct, all 3 of these require *the team moves.* 
so both handler & dog get exercise, & must be aware of one another and work consciously thru an event.

i agree with Rob-D that if we are going to turn-on our dogs to high excitement, we need to learn also 
how to tell them, *relax - it's not our turn, yet...* or to say, *Good dog! - all done, let's chill.*

letting them linger in a manic state without conserving their physical energy or reducing their frustration 
is poor handling, IMO. it does not matter what sport or activity we engage in with our dogs, they need cues 
to let them know we are waiting, relax; our turn is approaching; OK we are on tap - NOW we're performing... 
and now we're done, we can relax & recover, get a drink, cool-out, and socialize with other players.

i think the more activities we are involved in with our dogs, the better! 
brain-games or the mental workout involved in physical tasks like tracking, trailing, herding, etc, are terrific 
for enriching our dogs' lives & our own.


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## PoisonGirl (Oct 24, 2008)

grandad said:


> Does she have a choice?


Of course she bloody has a choice!!!! 
She is off lead and if she didn't want to do it then she wouldn't.

But when her choice, is to head for the A frame, tunnel or walkways as soon as we go anywhere near them, or when she chooses to pull away from me when I have leashed her at the end of the course, because she wants to jump some more then I think it is quite obvious how much she enjoys it. Dont dare accuse me of forcing my baby to do anything.

Are you now going to go and make a thread about horse jumping and racing?????


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

I think Richard Curtis caught Pogo's ear just before going in the ring (or something like that, I remember reading it somewhere!) which is why she was shaking her head. 

When you see Ember walk into agility training, you can plainly se she loves it! and she does a toller scream to let everyone know :lol:

Tilly shakes and shivers, with her tail between her legs and ears back, panting when waiting to go swimming. If you didn't know her you would think she was petrified! But she LOVES it so much, as soon as she is released she leaps in


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> Would you say that if you saw another species dancing to music? A wild animal that had been taken from it's mother and from it's environment to perform for the public. But I suppose it's okay for dogs to do it, or is it really for the owner self gratification. Worse still, are those that earn a living by this type of performance.


You cannot compare taking a wild animal away from its mother and natural environment to train it, with training a domesticated pet in its own environment. At least, not if you want to present a valid argument you can't.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

Took my last Goldie gundog to Agility, thought it would be good exercise for her outside the season.
She was well on in her training and about 18 months old. Took her just 3 times and had to stop because her training was just going out the window. The main thing seemed to be to wind them up enough to take away the initial fear. She started running riot


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

grandad said:


> Although my opinion won't change. Lets get back on topic. Scientific evidence anyone?


What is the point of even discussing it? You've been to ONE agility event and are now an expert on agility, heelwork to music and flyball.  You won't listen to the people who actually train these disciplines, or participate in these discplines - people who can and have given you correct and cogent information. If that's what you want, then fine - *shrugs* - remain ignorant about all three.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Just look at the poor miserable demeaned border collie clearly hating every second of it


Just look at that impatience to start, then the first trick I don't have to bribe, it's hard to stop a BC doing that if it likes you!


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> What is the point of even discussing it? You've been to ONE agility event and are now an expert on agility, heelwork to music and flyball.


It's called ranting, the grumps want to have a go at something, so look for soft targets to pick on. We know, BC's love being trained & working, the ppl doing activity with their dogs, are giving them brain work that they thrive on, rather than just being stuck in same old routine of a simple walk.

It's easy to make fun of stuff and slag things off, much harder to actually be a doer and acheive what they have.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

rona said:


> Took my last Goldie gundog to Agility,
> ...
> The main thing seemed to be to wind them up enough to take away the initial fear. She started running riot


So now you know why LFL and ppl caution about taking dogs over threshold.

Our dog is fearful on dog walk, and was at A-frame, but we take it slow. He enjoys A-frame already, and coped better with dog walk than first time.

At one time was scared of crossing a stream with 1 inch deep water, and he now loves swimming to retrieve things!


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> It's called ranting, the grumps want to have a go at something, so look for soft targets to pick on. We know, BC's love being trained & working, the ppl doing activity with their dogs, are giving them brain work that they thrive on, rather than just being stuck in same old routine of a simple walk.
> 
> It's easy to make fun of stuff and slag things off, much harder to actually be a doer and acheive what they have.


I don't think anyone is making fun and slagging off. Just giving an opinion which is different to yours.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> So now you know why LFL and ppl caution about taking dogs over threshold.
> 
> Our dog is fearful on dog walk, and was at A-frame, but we take it slow. He enjoys A-frame already, and coped better with dog walk than first time.
> 
> At one time was scared of crossing a stream with 1 inch deep water, and he now loves swimming to retrieve things!


If that's the way the classes are run though, many people would still continue.
The noise was horrendous and not conducive to any kind of calm interaction 
Fine for the more experienced agility dogs and owners but a disaster waiting to happen for nervous beginners, both dog and owner.
Are all agility classes like that?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

RobD-BCactive said:


> It's called ranting, the grumps want to have a go at something, so look for soft targets to pick on. We know, BC's love being trained & working, the ppl doing activity with their dogs, are giving them brain work that they thrive on, rather than just being stuck in same old routine of a simple walk.
> 
> It's easy to make fun of stuff and slag things off, much harder to actually be a doer and acheive what they have.


You're right - although I'm at a loss to know how anyone who knows anything at all about dogs could have watched the border collie in the video link posted earlier and not seen just how he was loving every minute of what he was doing. The expression on his face, the way his tail never stops wagging - he is playing with his owner and is having great fun. You don't need a scientific study to understand that


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lucylastic said:


> owever the high pace and performance pressure involved are causes for concern, particularly when the dog is expected to win a trophy for the owner.
> From "Stress in Dogs" by Clarissa von Reinhardt.
> From the same book under the heading of stress symptons, "shaking is an indicator that a dog finds a situation exhausting"
> Interesting that in the video clip the collie can be seen shaking it's head several times.


Lucy, look at the dog, that's a BC having a ball, it thinks it's playing.

My guy looks more stressed, when he's playing with a fetch toy, because he thinks he's working. The kind of shake, that's in the book is probably where the predatory chase sequence sticks, part of him wants to point & another part wants to pounce. Now he's mad keen on doing that and without the outlet, he'd not be a calm as he is, when he needs to settle evenings or like right now.

The genuinely stressed BC's I see out and about are the ones kept on short leads, with old school owners.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lucylastic said:


> I don't think anyone is making fun and slagging off. Just giving an opinion which is different to yours.


You must have missed the post about "circus act".
That bears no relation to what the dog is doing, if you watched the Richard Curtis video.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

rona said:


> If that's the way the classes are run though, many people would still continue.
> The noise was horrendous and not conducive to any kind of calm interaction
> Fine for the more experienced agility dogs and owners but a disaster waiting to happen for nervous beginners, both dog and owner.
> Are all agility classes like that?


No, I posted that the class I attend is very different, I would hve left after the initial introductory day, and taken my dog off to another place for agility, or flyball if it were as you described, or if my dog wasn't enjoying it.

Yes, the dogs become noisy when excited, but good trainers help ppl calm their dogs. Barking can occur in obedience classes, where dogs are not socialised. When dogs are dashing about, jumping and running, they'll often be noisy.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

I'm really surprised actually. I've never seen anything like the noise and chaos people have mentioned. 

It's a shame that people have had such bad experiences with something that can be brilliant fun and exercise


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> he is playing with his owner and is having great fun. You don't need a scientific study to understand that


You're right, may be there's another agenda. Somone might want to say that causing stress to dogs via coercive training cannot be so bad, as R+ "hypocrits" will support dogs in stressful situations.

They've made up their minds, now it's finding selective facts to piece together a story, ignore readily available evidence that contradicts a viewpoint.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Lucy, look at the dog, that's a BC having a ball, it thinks it's playing.
> 
> My guy looks more stressed, when he's playing with a fetch toy, because he thinks he's working. The kind of shake, that's in the book is probably where the predatory chase sequence sticks, part of him wants to point & another part wants to pounce. Now he's mad keen on doing that and without the outlet, he'd not be a calm as he is, when he needs to settle evenings or like right now.
> 
> The genuinely stressed BC's I see out and about are the ones kept on short leads, with old school owners.


I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I am only trying to point out that these activities are not for all and indeed can be stressful for some. It's not always as clear cut as it is painted. The relentless barking and ultra high levels of excitement that are often associated with these types of activities are clear indications of stressed dogs who have been taken too far over threshold too soon. To return to the original topic, it is a sad fact that far too many agility classes are run badly with too many dogs in a state of heightened excitement who will learn nothing in that environment. My dog is a hard wired working breed. I have taught her to do agility. She is very good at it. But I will never take her to a club or compete because I do not want her to become stressed about her learning.


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## lucylastic (Apr 9, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> You're right, may be there's another agenda. Somone might want to say that causing stress to dogs via coercive training cannot be so bad, as R+ "hypocrits" will support dogs in stressful situations.
> 
> They've made up their minds, now it's finding selective facts to piece together a story, ignore readily available evidence that contradicts a viewpoint.


I'm trying to see both sides here. I wish some of you would do the same.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

lucylastic said:


> I'm trying to see both sides here. I wish some of you would do the same.


Agreed, this section is getting very defensive. You are not allowed to even ask or give an opinion any more


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

lucylastic said:


> . The relentless barking and ultra high levels of excitement that are often associated with these types of activities are clear indications of stressed dogs who have been taken too far over threshold too soon. .


I disagree. It's a clear indication of an excited dog who can't wait to do something he loves.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Opinion was asked, most of us said Agility classes should not be like that.
We agred with grandad.

OK now he had a pop at something else in a really unjustified way, which suggest what he really wants, is what has now happened, bickering.

It's really unfair comment to say, grandad's side was not seen.


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lucylastic said:


> I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I am only trying to point out that these activities are not for all and indeed can be stressful for some. It's not always as clear cut as it is painted


Thank you lucylastic.

Now I agree with you, Hetty agreed, and I think others. If our dogs don't like it, we won't do it. If the club is poor, or encourages unsympathetic handling, many of us also would go elsewhere.

We said all that early on. Now I've come back and it's another storm in a teacup. We have been trolled, the troll got what he wanted and is yet again postively reinforced.


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

grandad said:


> [/B]
> 
> I think I'm coming to the opinion, with fly ball, dog dance and agility that it's more for the owner/handler than the dog. It is in essence more like a circus act than a sport.
> The sooner animal circus/dolphin/whale shows are banned the better, by the way.


I think agility and fly ball have their place in terms of bored working dogs living in pet homes. It must give them a vent/release for pent up energy and lack of mental stimulation. As these classes are widely available to all dog owners now it probabaly means a few less bored and frustrated dogs at the rescue centres because this is exercise that owners can fit in to a week (like an exercise class or evening class for themselves)

Not everyone has loads of time/resource/knowledge to dedicate one to one to their dog and alot of people are "fairweather" and dont walk as far in the inclement months so at least these dogs are getting some exercise and stimulation ???.
OP whereabouts do you live? if anywhere near me you are more than welcome to come and watch classes where i train and see just what fun agility is when its done right.
I do however think more emphasis should be placed on getting really good basics before a dog starts agility or flyball as a "hobby". Thats how i see it anyway, personally i would rather be tramping through the woods for an hour but it's a personal choice and my dog doesn't need anymore than he gets already to keep him happy.[/QUOTE]

I started Agility when my dog was over a yr old, if for one moment i thought he didnt enjoy it i would stop going, i train on a weds night and as soon as i put my trainers on he gets very excited, when we get to agility hes like a kid in a playground, he loves it, when i am warming him up in the ring, we all laugh as he will head straight for the see saw and the A frame, they are his fav, no one where i train shouts at the dogs or forces the dogs to do anything,


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Thank you lucylastic.
> 
> Now I agree with you, Hetty agreed, and I think others. If our dogs don't like it, we won't do it. If the club is poor, or encourages unsympathetic handling, many of us also would go elsewhere.
> 
> We said all that early on. Now I've come back and it's another storm in a teacup. We have been trolled, the troll got what he wanted and is yet again postively reinforced.


I don't know why he's a troll, I have at least partly agreed with nearly all his posts and I believe he has asked some very valid questions.
By the look of some of the other answers on nearly all threads started by this "troll" quite a few people agree with him.
It's only the defensive attitude which turns his threads bad


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

My reason to call it trolling is repetitive posts to get reactions, when one issue doesn't ignite, then he has a pop at something else. A clever troll who engages something people can support but none the less.

Why else does someone basically equate "Heelwork to Music" to "circus performance" is being emotive, to stimulate calm debate right after they told us about disturbing goings on at an agility club; no way!

Now ppl, let me tell you. Dogs bark.

If I say the name of his best pals, my dog barks massively, it is called excitement and looking forward to having fun. Is that scientifically stressing, yes it is, I would not repeatedly do it; furthermore I took the trouble to learn to calm my exciteable dog down, early on. I didn't just take all his toys away, and give him no opportunity to learn how to cope.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

How the HELL did i get totally misquoted in this thread and can a MOD sort it out please !!!!

Sorry Hazel, no idea how that happened but the quote you give under my name is NOT my quote !!!!!!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

rona said:


> I don't know why he's a troll, I have at least partly agreed with nearly all his posts and I believe he has asked some very valid questions.
> By the look of some of the other answers on nearly all threads started by this "troll" quite a few people agree with him.
> It's only the defensive attitude which turns his threads bad


Have to say i agree Rona  I think there are valid questions to be asked about these classes and what defines a "good" or "bad" one.

Where i trained Ocsar they had agility stuff and he HATED the equipment (too nervous bless him) so i never persued it as a "hobby" for us but he skips over some of the playground equipment with me happy as larry 

Like with everything in life when a competitive streak kicks in people often ignore anything that gets in the way of their "goal" (just talk to the children of "pushy parents" )


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Toby wasn't interested in agility - we tried it once at a dog show. 

The lady showed me the course & told me to jump over the first few to get Toby to follow - several jumps later I was still going over them & Toby was running alongside me looking confused ... I was concentrating so much on not falling over that I didn't notice


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

Freddie's always jumping over things, but first time at agility class he tried to wriggle under the pole. I think he would have gone round to if I'd done that, despite him liking running and jumping over logs next to a path.

Just like a game of tug or fetch; the dogs have to be taught the how first. They don't start enjoying agility until they've got the idea, that they'll be running around and taking on challenges with you, as a team.


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Freddie's always jumping over things, but first time at agility class he tried to wriggle under the pole. I think he would have gone round to if I'd done that, despite him liking running and jumping over logs next to a path.
> 
> Just like a game of tug or fetch; the dogs have to be taught the how first. They don't start enjoying agility until they've got the idea, that they'll be running around and taking on challenges with you, as a team.


There are obviously good and bad agility training, obviously I and the OP have seen the worst and therefore have given our own valid opinions based on our experiences, or it could be that we view dogs slightly differently 
I do believe that when talking about any activity like agility, heelwork to music and flyball, Collies should be taken out of the equation because they do seem to be a breed alone


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

jack russells appear to like flyball?


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

gorgeous said:


> jack russells appear to like flyball?


They like terrier racing


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

So do Kelpie's need to be taken out of the equation too when it comes to agility? what about abc classes  (can of worms):blink:


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

pearl Button said:


> So do Kelpie's need to be taken out of the equation too when it comes to agility? what about abc classes  (can of worms):blink:


It was a tongue in cheek comment, notice the wink at the end


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

Jack at agility


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

rona said:


> Collies should be taken out of the equation because they do seem to be a breed alone


Well there's a class with Labs & GR's after ours. I'll try and watch it, and see how they enjoy, may be in a few weeks, booked till then.

My dog performed the same initally as your Lab, or even worse, but that didn't mean very much.

I actually think, from what I've seen is the BC's have a natural advantage because they tolerate high excitement better, they seem to calm quicker, and manage to follow direction. Possibly due to selection for sheep herding, fast moving, exciting and quite a dangerous occupation. The breed standard actually explicitly says, facial scars must not be marked down!

Same possibly applies to other pastoral breeds.


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## pearl Button (May 12, 2011)

rona said:


> It was a tongue in cheek comment, notice the wink at the end


lol I know but the collie/ Kelpie thing always comes up and of course yep I have some of both


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## Guest (May 12, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Well there's a class with Labs & GR's after ours. I'll try and watch it, and see how they enjoy, may be in a few weeks, booked till then.
> 
> My dog performed the same initally as your Lab, or even worse, but that didn't mean very much.
> 
> ...


See yours is obviously a good one, the one I went too had all breeds and abilities in the same small sand school. A recipe for disaster, particularly for sensitive dogs.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

RobD-BCactive said:


> Thank you lucylastic.
> 
> Now I agree with you, Hetty agreed, and I think others. If our dogs don't like it, we won't do it. If the club is poor, or encourages unsympathetic handling, many of us also would go elsewhere.
> 
> We said all that early on. Now I've come back and it's another storm in a teacup. We have been trolled, the troll got what he wanted and is yet again postively reinforced.


Likewise Rob and LFL. Who regularly post on here, but wouldn't/shouldn't be called trolls. Most posts also seem to be around R+ and any different posts/questions to that are then hijacked and turned around to make sure the conversation relates to that subject. . 
I think you may have a little paranoia and that you really believe this forum is your individaul soap box. Personally I'm just interested about what people have to say about the way they treat and train their dogs. Simples really, but I notice that, you guys are always the first to respond and attack either the question or the author. Do you actually get any sleep?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I think there are valid questions... about [agility] classes & what defines a "good" or "bad" one.


Rainy, the OP did not *_*ask*_* any questions about good, bad or indifferent.

s/he or they posted _that they had been to ONE - a single class, run by one person - 
& that this was not a Good Thing for dogs, what with barking, etc._ 


> Originally Posted by grandad - *bold added - *
> Courtesy of *Hetty - *
> 
> _I've just been to observe an agility class. WTF is that all about...
> ...


so... Is this exaggerated? it certainly sounds so - i have NEVER seen an agility class with *'people 
running around screaming'*, multiple * owners shouting at the dog to be quiet*, etc. 
so this would be IME an extremely unusual, badly-run class or event.

then G-dad went on to say, about freestyle AKA H-T-M: 


> Originally Post by grandad -
> courtesy of Claire*and*Daisy -
> 
> _Would you say that if you saw another species dancing to music? A wild animal that had been taken from
> ...


so it has somehow morphed from an enjoyable mutual activity to kidnapping an animal from the wild, 
& forcing her or him to perform.

then it was disparaged as *a circus act* as see 


> Originally Posted by grandad - *bold added - *
> Courtesy of *hazel pritchard* -
> 
> _I think I'm coming to the opinion with [flyball], dog dance & agility that it's more for the owner/handler than the dog.
> It is in essence *more like a circus act* than a sport. _


if that is not sufficiently extreme & contemptuous, the post continues... 


> Originally Posted by grandad - *bold added - *
> Courtesy of *hazel pritchard* -
> 
> _The sooner *animal circus / dolphin / whale shows are banned* the better, by the way._


there are many highly-reputable circuses which perform with domestic animals only, often at liberty - 
liberty horses, dog-disobedience routines, cats who do gymnastics, tightrope walking cats, and so on.

comparing them to wild-captive acts which MAY BE reward trained & very humane, or MAY BE extremely cruel 
[like burning bear's forepaws to force them to 'dance' on their hind-feet, or moving elephants thru a routine 
only by poking them with a hook, and so on] is another example of gratuitous arson via inflammatory posts 
which have little or nothing to do with reality:

reality is where the dog-owner finds a class or group for an activity they think they'll enjoy, & they think 
their DOG will enjoy it, too; they go see it, or try it out, & if the dog dislikes it or they find it's not as much fun 
as expected, they stop going. :001_smile: it's the same process we go thru choosing a puppy-class, manners 
or advanced dog-training class with Utility-Dog title as the goal, except that many ppl & dogs do agility 
or freestyle and have zero interest in competing - it's just fun, they might do it for the local school-assembly 
or at a Bark in the Park, but they're not interested in ribbons, trophies or making the Regionals.

what does it come down to? if U think that U will like it & that Ur dog may like it, try it - observe a class or 3 
by different instructors, find someone whose style of teaching appeals, give it a shot! 
if U don't like it or the dog dislikes it, *Stop.* if U love the activity & don't like the instructor,
*find someone else* - or try DIY or organize a fun-group with other dog-owners, using the lower 
level equipment [no A-frame, no dogwalk, just low jumps, tire-jumps, maybe a broad-jump or swaying bridge].

_dogs love to run & jump in play - they do it all the time. 
putting it on cue & teaching specific moves to high skill levels, like weave-poles, 
is only improving on what dogs do when they squeeze thru underbrush or a fallen tree, 
while chasing a rabbit. It's done on cue, & always a left-hand entry, but weaving thru dead 
reeds dashing after a duck flying toward the pond ahead is very similar.

claiming it's a "circus act" is pure hyperbole & IMO intended to stir the pot._


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> Rainy, the OP did not *_*ask*_* any questions about good, bad or indifferent.
> 
> s/he or they posted _that they had been to ONE - a single class, run by one person -
> & that this was not a Good Thing for dogs, what with barking, etc._
> ...


But you still failed to answer the question. HOW IS THIS GOOD FOR DOGS. Referring to the BAD agility class I saw.


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

lucylastic said:


> Agility, dog dancing, obedience training.
> These types of dog sports have a very positive reputation and are associated with happy co-operative dogs. However the high pace and performance pressure involved are causes for concern, particularly when the dog is expected to win a trophy for the owner.
> From "Stress in Dogs" by Clarissa von Reinhardt.
> From the same book under the heading of stress symptons, "shaking is an indicator that a dog finds a situation exhausting"
> Interesting that in the video clip the collie can be seen shaking it's head several times.


This is still the only piece of work, that has referred to the question from and noted source.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

grandad said:


> But you still failed to answer the question. HOW IS THIS GOOD FOR DOGS. Referring to the BAD agility class I saw.


That class wasn't good the class we go to is nothing like that. Yes some of the dogs are barking because they're EXCITED. They have so much fun that they can't wait their turn. You do get bad owners in agility, HTM, flyball, obedience, field trials and just about any other dog sport you can think of. I remember seeing a mini poodle at Crufts being made to do the course with it's tail the whole way down scared. That isn't right. But if the dogs enjoy it and they're trained with positive methods how can it be a bad thing?


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## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Rainy, the OP did not *_*ask*_* any questions about good, bad or indifferent.
> 
> s/he or they posted _that they had been to ONE - a single class, run by one person -
> & that this was not a Good Thing for dogs, what with barking, etc._
> ...


Think there are probs on here tonight as the above was not posted by me


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## grandad (Apr 14, 2011)

Audrey Ferrell APDT an essay written for an agility forum 

According to veterinary behaviourist Karen Overall, anxiety-related disorders are probably the most common class of disorders in dogs. Furthermore, it is my view that we as simple dog owners are not properly educated in this matter of stress and, therefore, are not helping our canine companions reach their full potential. 

The intent here is not to attribute human characteristics to our dogs. Skinner said simply, 'It is impossible to know what an animal or another person is thinking. All we have to go on are the visible physical signs of what we call 'stress' and how the dog performs with these symptoms present. At this point in science, we cannot say what the animal is 'thinking.'

Rather it is my objective to come up with a comprehensive list of signs and causes of stress in the dog. I will discuss the effects stress has on behaviour and explore a variety of methods to treat and prevent the stress response, thus improving performance in our canine athletes and companions.

Signs of stress
Based upon past observation of dogs at agility competitions, I venture to say well over half exhibited various signs of stress. The severe cases involved dogs leaving the ring without their handlers. Many of these handlers thought their dog was 'just being bad,' but in fact, the dog was reacting as he would to any negative re-inforcer. Escape the pressure and find something else more positively reinforcing to do.

Recognising the signs of stress is the first step in understanding a dog&#8217;s behaviour. All too often, dogs can be found in a class or a dog park who are, unbeknownst to their owners, totally stressed out. While it is impossible to measure actual canine thoughts, it is possible to measure visible external stressors such as a change in environment. This, in turn, makes it possible to measure the effects of these external stressors by noting the dog&#8217;s response to them. In a laboratory environment, we could go much further and record heart rate, blood pressure, hormone levels, brain waves etc., but that is beyond the scope of this essay.

Some of the signs of stress are as follows: panting, yawning, scratching, licking, staring, dilated pupils, blinking, avoiding eye contact, tucked tail, low and slow wagging tail, shaking, salivating, whining, barking, diarrhea, sniffing, sudden onset of dandruff, shedding, muscle tension, hypersensitivity, increased reactivity, zooming around the ring, general restlessness, or avoidance of handler. Most of these signs could be observed any given day at an agility trial.

Stress, anxiety and excitement can increase a human&#8217;s body temperature causing the need to engage the cooling mechanisms. The result is sweating. Dogs are also susceptible to this phenomenon, but they sweat through the pads of their feet and their mouths. Hence, the wet paw prints on the floor.

Yet another great window to emotions is the tail. A tucked tail can mean mental discomfort, while a slow wagging tail can be translated as insecurity, uncertainty, or indecision. Licking is a complex signal that can sometimes be interpreted as a sign of tension. Some stressed dogs appear to be licking the air and do not seem to be 'aiming' at any person or thing. This dog may lick his lips or even begin licking his own body (Coren, 2000). 

Yet another important sign of stress, which I am personally very painfully aware of, is avoidance. Avoidance of eye contact is a real problem when trying to gain a dogs attention or otherwise communicate with him. A stressed out dog will have difficulty in focusing on you and the task at hand. This lack of focus can cause a delayed response, which can mean the difference between a clean run and elimination. In agility this dog will be slower off the mark and slower in completing the obstacles for an overall slower time. If the dog is avoiding you and eye contact with you, these delays are inevitable. The breaking of eye contact is a sign of submission and perhaps fear and anxiety in this case.

Some dogs become over-aroused when under performance pressure. Their pupils will become dilated and they appear to be 'out of it.' This could be an example of Pavlov&#8217;s 'excitable' animal vs. the 'inhibited' animal. Scott and Fuller expounded upon Pavlov&#8217;s theory and identified the passive dog and the dog that tries to escape. Within this class they found enormous variability. The 'excitable' dog may bark and whine constantly or race about wildly which in turn lead to inconsistent performance and a loss of control. On the other hand, the 'inhibited' dog will shut down, leave the ring, stress sniff or find some other way to avoid the pressure. Both types of dogs, though displaying their stress in different ways, are equally counterproductive (Steinker, 2000). This results in a large problem in the agility dog where speed, accuracy and timing are the name of the game. 

Causes and effects
It is my belief that the underlying primary cause of stress is lack of socialisation. Jean Donaldson defines socialisation as 'a term which means habituation or getting used to environmental elements through exposure.' (CC p 60) Without proper socialisation a dog may display all of the aforementioned signs of stress when thrown into a new environment. We should not, therefore, expect an improperly socialised dog to perform at his peak in the face of new stimuli.

A lack of socialisation can lead to many excuses as to why the dog performs poorly. Some say that the dog is 'unforgiving' or 'soft'. This implies that the dog does not forget, recover from or move on from unpleasant experiences (Jones 2001). Another excuse might describe a dog as having an over-active 'fight or flight' response. While this may be true to a certain extent, it is still a product of lack of socialisation. 

Another common comment is 'Why can&#8217;t my dog just act like he does at home?' To answer this, when everything in the trial environment, including the handler, is vastly different from the friendlier training environment, there is suddenly a breakdown in performance. This breakdown is due to stress, which is caused by lack of socialisation to these stimuli. This level of stimulation was probably never experienced prior to the dogs&#8217; debut. Good indicators of an unfinished training/socialisation process are all of the aforementioned signs of stress.

While lack of socialisation may be the primary cause of stress, it is not the only one. Other causes might include:

Poor training or training style 
Handler pressure 
Fatigue 
Genetics. 
Poor training is related to lack of socialisation, much of which is accomplished unbeknownst to the trainer. Since dogs are innocent subjects of learning laws, and since behaviour is under the control of its consequences, we can manipulate consequences to control behaviour in training. For example, we inadvertently train our dogs to behave a certain way under these circumstances: start line, show ring, obedience class, etc. We are quite proficient at unintentionally classically conditioning a ring-wise dog. 

Stress can be attributed to another training problem, which is lack of feedback from the handler. This decreases motivation and helps the behaviour along the road to extinction rather than fluency (Duford, 2001). Poor trainers often expect too much from their dogs too soon by asking them to perform under pressure prematurely. Since training is not allowed in the competition ring, behaviour goes unreinforced, which equates to a lack of feedback from the handler. As a result, the dog quickly learns that in a trial environment, there are no consequences for his behaviours and the stress level increases as a result of confusion. Performance often deteriorates immediately or over a series of successive trials. 

Fatigue should also be avoided, as this is another cause of stress. It is important to stop training while the dog is still enjoying the behaviour and the rate of response is high. (Donaldson, 1998)

Social pressure is yet another influence on dog behaviour. Our dogs are classically conditioned to understand what our complicated body language means. Our body language and attitude have a colossal effect on our dog&#8217;s stress level. When we suddenly transform into yelling, tense, and waving monsters while under our own pressures, the effects on our dogs are painfully obvious (Duford 2001). We must fix our own behaviour before we can change the dogs.

Training style is a likely cause of increased stress in dogs. In a study on training tests by Scott and Fuller, results indicate that the expression of any one ability is highly dependent on the training method used (1965). Suzanne Clothier puts it well '&#8230;any method which incorporates fear, confusion, or aggression from the handler is not conducive to learning, curiosity, enjoyment, trust and cooperation (1996)'.

In a pioneer study on genetics and the social behaviour of dogs, researchers found that different breed groups responded to training pressure in different ways. A link was also found between emotional, or stressed, behaviour and heredity. Furthermore, different emotional behaviours were discovered to form a prominent part of the characteristic behaviour of breeds and individuals. (Scott & Fuller, 1965)

About the author...
Audrey Ferrel has been training animals since she was a child. She grew up around horses and dogs and began teaching riding and horsemanship at a very early age through the United States Pony Club.

Audrey attended Virginia Tech where she earned a B.S. degree in Animal Science in 1997. (Go Hokies!) While still in school, I accepted a job training explosives detection dogs through Galaxy Scientific Corporation. This marked the beginning of my dog-training career, and ever since I have been schooled in the art of reinforcement trainng. She found herself, and her passion, in the world of animal behaviour

Her behaviour studies include attending multiple seminars and workshops as well as furthering my education in psychology at the University of South Carolina. In 1998 she became a professional member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT), which is an organisation that promotes continuing the education of trainers in humane and positive training techniques. 1998 also marks the inception of BBDT in Beaufort, SC. While there she treated many behaviour problems referred by veterinarians including many types of aggression, anxiety issues, house training problems and various other general behavioural issues. She worked with Cloma Calm in co-operation with several local vets. On most weekdays and some weekends, you could find me conducting phone and email consultations, private and group sessions, or traveling all over the Lowcountry seeing dogs of all shapes and sizes.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

closing this as it so needs sorting, No need at all for the change of title that is just NOT on especially in the vein that it was changed to !!!!!! 

Please bear with me OP whilst I sort this one out and also see what led another member to rename your thread


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