# Madeleine McCann



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I had an interesting conversation with someone the other day and their theory on her disappearance is her parents. 

They think she was drugged when they went out and they got rid of her body. A guy who had a daughter the same age said his kid would be really panicked if they left him alone. I am not a parent so can't comment. 

I hadn't thought of it before 

What do you think?


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

I honestly think they have something to do with it, I would not be like the mother if my daughter went missing.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I don't believe that they hurt their child,i do however believe that they were stupid,neglectful and really should have know better, being part of the medical profesion.I also think that they know this and are paying for it everyday of their lives.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Our family have always said that, they gave her too much of something to keep her quiet so they could go out, realized their mistake and got rid of her body  
My mum always says there is was something "off" about her mum when she was shown on TV etc...


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Look at how Ben needham mum, she's done no publicity stunts, or any of the other parents who have sadly missing kids.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Have you been speaking to my mum? That is what she always says.

Why wouls someone abduct the older girl and not the younger?


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

I believe her parents were involved in her "death", I don't believe she's alive and I believe her parents killed her accidentally or intentionally (i.e through anger/frustration).

I've herd various theories...

-Parents were involved in child abuser ring, she was killed by the "ring". 
-Parents sold her.
-Local child sex offender stole her.
-She was accidentally overdosed on medication intending to knock her out.

What really got me was the pictures of her parents smiling just a day or two after she went missing, I understand everyone reacts differently but it just sends chills down my spine.

The other thing that "gets" me is that the morning after she went missing her parents wanted to go out for a walk, fair enough I guess but I know I would have been up all night crying, looking for my child so going out for a walk would only be an option to help search for her.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

I think it's odd how they seem to have got away with 'it' - as in any level of what they did. If that had been a single mother on benefits, who left her kids unattended to go for a feed and a drink, and one went missing, the social services would have whipped the others out of her care and had her up on charges of neglect. 
It makes me angry that the McCanns put having a feed and a drink above the need for their children to be supervised - even declining the resorts free creche or seemingly begrudging paying £10/hr babysitting service that was on offer - but then appeal for hundreds of thousands of pounds of the public to find her. 
I truly hope one day Madeleine turns up as an adult and punches their lights out.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't think the parents had anything to do with it otherwise why take turns with their friends to keep checking on the kids at regular intervals??

The mistake they made was not locking the door before they went out.

I honestly think they were being watched and someone saw an opportunity to snatch a little girl out of her bed.

Someone somewhere knows what happened to her and I feel bad for her parents being left in limbo.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Years ago when my son was 13 months old we left him in his cot asleep while we sat by the pool restaurant but we locked him in and the only way anyone could get in or out apart from windows was through the front door and we could see it from where we were sitting.

It was no different then us sitting in the garden with him upstairs in bed.

I've done the exact same thing as the McCanns and so have alot of other parents.


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

I'm not sure whether they had an input other than stupid neglect, but I do have my own theory!

I believe after the previous night when Maddy woke crying and asked where they had been, she was told 'just down the road at the Tappas bar'
so the next night when she woke she probaby went out to look for them and maybe got taken by someone then...??....Hence the twins left unharmed and no sign of entry to the apartment?!


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Gertrude said:


> I'm not sure whether they had an input other than stupid neglect, but I do have my own theory!
> 
> I believe after the previous night when Maddy woke crying and asked where they had been, she was told 'just down the road at the Tappas bar'
> so the next night when she woke she probaby went out to look for them and maybe got taken by someone then...??....Hence the twins left unharmed and no sign of entry to the apartment?!


This is probably closer to the truth. There wouldn't have been any forced entry anyway as the patio doors were deliberately left open for them to check the kids.


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## springfieldbean (Sep 13, 2010)

One of my friends told me this theory a few weeks ago. It was honestly the first time I'd heard it, and I was pretty shocked! But apparently it's common practice for doctors/other people in the health profession to drug their children before they go out!

I don't know what I think about it yet. The whole incident did seem very odd, with lots of unanswered questions, but I'm not sure I can believe that the parents would have spent all these years campaigning and stuff, if the whole time it was them who accidentally killed their own child. I'm mean, that's a hell of a coverup.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I cant see them having anything to do with it...apart from wilful neglect of course.

Poor little girl. I really hope she is alive and well and not in any awful situation..but sadly I fear the worst for the little angel. All for the sake of a night out with friends for the parents. 

When we took holidays with our young kids..we Made sure they had a nap in the afternoon and then joined us for a meal in the evening and then slept in their buggies for an hour or two whilst we had a drink or watched entertainment. I dont know why some people have kids..peaceful evening meals are non existent unless you have a baby sitter!

It should also be noted that Portugal is very child friendly..I know this for sure. Why they left those babies alone..goodness knows!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I had an interesting conversation with someone the other day and their theory on her disappearance is her parents.
> 
> They think she was drugged when they went out and they got rid of her body. A guy who had a daughter the same age said his kid would be really panicked if they left him alone. I am not a parent so can't comment.
> 
> ...


I have always believed that she woke up in a strange place, went wandering to try to find her parents and someone found her and took her home. Knowing how besotted the Europeans are with children, I can see this as a likely scenario and I think if she had been abducted by the wrong sort, they would have found a trace by now.

I cannot believe that anyone would leave three young children in a strange hotel room so they could go have their meal in peace, especially since there was a baby sitting service. When we went away when the children were small we had our dinner early and took them with us. Utterly selfish if you ask me.

I also read that Madeleine asked her mother why she didn't come the night before when her little sister was crying. Still after that, she took herself off out. Good thing it wasn't a single mother who had done that or the papers would have slated her.

I know it is a little off topic, but I would be more curious about what happened to JonBenet Ramsey and little Matthew Eapen, both of whom were murdered with no real conclusion.


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## freckles (May 8, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I believe her parents were involved in her "death", I don't believe she's alive and I believe her parents killed her accidentally or intentionally (i.e through anger/frustration).
> 
> I've herd various theories...
> 
> ...


yes Ive heard all those too, I think its going to be one of those stories we will never know the answer too... well unless she did turn up..

(love the shelties BTW)


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Lots of parents drug their kids too with Calpol or other sleep inducing medication just for a quite night.

I think people are just jumping on the bandwaggon and putting two and two together just because they're doctors.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Iheartcats said:


> Years ago when my son was 13 months old we left him in his cot asleep while we sat by the pool restaurant but we locked him in and the only way anyone could get in or out apart from windows was through the front door and we could see it from where we were sitting.
> 
> It was no different then us sitting in the garden with him upstairs in bed.
> 
> I've done the exact same thing as the McCanns and so have alot of other parents.


I would never leave a kid alone. My parents never left us and I don't know of anyone who leaves a kid in an apartment alone. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there was an offence there...(UK of course)


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## the melster (Mar 20, 2010)

I lived in Praia da Luz prior to this happening. I don't know what happened and don't really have a theory. All I can say is that Luz is a small remote village on a dead end road. There is virtually no through traffic and whilst everyone can say they should not have left their children, if you were ever going to leave yours, then this would be the place you would.


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## hlea (Feb 19, 2013)

How many year's has it been now?
I doesn't feel that long ago when this happened...
It is such a sad story and I am not sure whether I believe the parents had something to do with her disappearance or not. All I know is that this type of incident happens to many children across the world as child trafficking is huge, but we generally do not hear about it until it is about a child from our own country.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

I would NEVER leave my kids alone. I feel being in the garden while there in bed



How would it explain the sniffer dogs found blood and her body smell in there hire car?


I think she died while they were out, they panicked as they knew they'd be in trouble. Hid her body a while away, and got rid of her body a few days later in there hire car.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> Years ago when my son was 13 months old we left him in his cot asleep while we sat by the pool restaurant but we locked him in and the only way anyone could get in or out apart from windows was through the front door and we could see it from where we were sitting.
> 
> It was no different then us sitting in the garden with him upstairs in bed.
> 
> I've done the exact same thing as the McCanns and so have alot of other parents.


I would never leave a child locked in anywhere that I couldnt clearly see or hear them. What about a fire..somebody breaking a window to get..etc. I would not take a chance with my kids. Id choke on my meal worrying if they were okay.


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Gertrude said:


> I'm not sure whether they had an input other than stupid neglect, but I do have my own theory!
> 
> I believe after the previous night when Maddy woke crying and asked where they had been, she was told 'just down the road at the Tappas bar'
> so the next night when she woke she probaby went out to look for them and maybe got taken by someone then...??....Hence the twins left unharmed and no sign of entry to the apartment?!


I also agree with this theory more so than any other. Did they test the babies for drugs in their system? Would they have just drugged Madeline and not the twins? As medical professionals, I doubt that they'd cause the death of a 3 year old by overdosing her on a sleeping drug, as was the theory mentioned by a lot of people. I also don't think they'd intentionally harm their own child.


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## ginge2804 (Nov 5, 2011)

My mum has always said this..

They overdosed her on something to make her sleep, and then got rid of the body.
I do think that could be true, the only thing I don't understand is how now, so many years on, there has been NO trace of her or anything..


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I would never leave a kid alone. My parents never left us and I don't know of anyone who leaves a kid in an apartment alone. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there was an offence there...(UK of course)


We did it alot on that particular holiday. He was an absolute nightmare to take out in his buggy in the evening! He'd cry, scream and one of us would have to hold him while the other ate and vise versa and we got so many complaints from other holiday makers for making their evenings a misery that we decided to have our main meal at lunch time and put him to bed in the evenings which is what he wanted most of all - his cozy bed! And we'd eat our dinner later in peace and everyone was a winner! No more taps on the shoulder from grumpy holiday makers telling us to shut the baby up!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

the melster said:


> I lived in Praia da Luz prior to this happening. I don't know what happened and don't really have a theory. All I can say is that Luz is a small remote village on a dead end road. There is virtually no through traffic and whilst everyone can say they should not have left their children, if you were ever going to leave yours, then this would be the place you would.


But surely the biggest risk to children is not stranger attacks or snatches because it is very rare; but injury or illness or just plain old kids needing mum and dad and being frightened or upset when they are not there.

Surely that is common sense


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I believe that some kind of freak accident /or accidental overdose occured..parents and friends tried to resuscitate her themselves instead of calling ambulamce..but failed..then panicked and were woried about the possibily of being arrested, losing custody of their kids as well as being struck of the medical profession..plus friends who were implicated were ready to cooperate ...
doctors are intelligent people who need cool blood to cope with their work...

they lost a child..did not want to lose anything else...
then situation got out of hand , but there was no turning back?


more if you involved others who have families and jobs at stake...
from their point of view IMO they could not save Maddy , but wanted to keep their other children ...so even for their sake...
yes..i was advised by a nurse whom Iknow..in private that I can give kids this and that so they sleep all night...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

When my son was about three I left him asleep one morning to go to the school at the end of the road, about four doors away, to see my daughter off on her school outing. I was gone about ten minutes and when I came back he had woken up, come downstairs and realised there was no one in the house. He was screaming and sobbing and I will never forget that to this day, he was so frightened.

No I would never leave a child alone, especially in a strange place.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> We did it alot on that particular holiday. He was an absolute nightmare to take out in his buggy in the evening! He'd cry, scream and one of us would have to hold him while the other ate and vise versa and we got so many complaints from other holiday makers for making their evenings a misery that we decided to have our main meal at lunch time and put him to bed in the evenings which is what he wanted most of all - his cozy bed! And we'd eat our dinner later in peace and everyone was a winner! No more taps on the shoulder from grumpy holiday makers telling us to shut the baby up!


I can't believe iv just read this. I would tell the grumpy holiday makers to F off. My son plays up a lot, but I'd find ways around it, or go somewhere else, even if it ment a takeaway in the room.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

My sister on the other hand used to put her baby to bed and go and have dinner round a friends flat (they live in a large house converted into flats) and take her baby listener with her!

She didn't see anything wrong with that. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't feel comfortable but at least on hol we could see the bedroom from where we were sitting.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

My dad knows the area well and he says that within 10 minutes you could be out of there on a boat to Morroco.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> When my son was about three I left him asleep one morning to go to the school at the end of the road, about four doors away, to see my daughter off on her school outing. I was gone about ten minutes and when I came back he had woken up, come downstairs and realised there was no one in the house. He was screaming and sobbing and I will never forget that to this day, he was so frightened.
> 
> No I would never leave a child alone, especially in a strange place.


Ohhh bless him


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> Ohhh bless him


And I still feel guilty, 36 years later.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I believe she is still alive.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> I can't believe iv just read this. I would tell the grumpy holiday makers to F off. My son plays up a lot, but I'd find ways around it, or go somewhere else, even if it ment a takeaway in the room.


I know! My daughter on the other hand born three years later is a real party animal! No early bed for her! She wanted a whole song and dance routine from the moment she was born so she was always a dream to take out in the evenings.

My son even now wants to go to bed at between 8 and 9pm and he's 13 years old! Daughter on the other hand can still party at 11pm!!

You can't take my son to a wedding or party. He flakes out just as the disco starts!


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> And I still feel guilty, 36 years later.


Did he forget about it? Hubby had to come n pick me up once, about a 3min drive away at 11pm, I felt sick!


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

If the parents were behind her disappearance then why keep pushing the incident into the public eye all this time. If you have done something that bad, you don't keep bringing attention to yourself because you know that one day you'll trip up with your story and the intense media press will jump on it immediately.

I have never suspected the parents and never will. People think the mother was cold the day after, in interviews. I say that was a woman in total shock, struggling to comprehend how her world had just fallen apart and just trying to find a way of getting through the day whilst dealing with the guilt of knowing she had let her baby down.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

What I thought odd was she washed her teddy bear!!

You would want her smell on it. I never washed my dogs toy after he passed and we kept a jumper of my grandads after he passed away.
My mum didn't wash my rabbie.

If your daughter went missing you would keep her snuggle with her smell surely?!!!


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> I know! My daughter on the other hand born three years later is a real party animal! No early bed for her! She wanted a whole song and dance routine from the moment she was born so she was always a dream to take out in the evenings.
> 
> My son even now wants to go to bed at between 8 and 9pm and he's 13 years old! Daughter on the other hand can still party at 11pm!!
> 
> You can't take my son to a wedding or party. He flakes out just as the disco starts!


My daughter is too, my son would happily go bed at 6pm lol


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

the melster said:


> I lived in Praia da Luz prior to this happening. I don't know what happened and don't really have a theory. All I can say is that Luz is a small remote village on a dead end road. There is virtually no through traffic and whilst everyone can say they should not have left their children, if you were ever going to leave yours, then this would be the place you would.


It does seem odd that it was pretty low season, slightly off the beaten track. I still think it was a local man who took her.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> My sister on the other hand used to put her baby to bed and go and have dinner round a friends flat (they live in a large house converted into flats) and take her baby listener with her!
> 
> She didn't see anything wrong with that. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't feel comfortable but at least on hol we could see the bedroom from where we were sitting.


Neither scenario would be acceptable to me tbh.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> My daughter is too, my son would happily go bed at 6pm lol


I'm so glad those baby/toddler days are behind me. I have a friend whose daughter was born a couple of weeks after my son and they couldn't have been more different! She could take her baby out in the evenings and one night she took her out in the buggy (they were staying at Butlins), wheeled her under the table, put a blanket over her and watched a show! The baby slept right through it! That would have been impossible for me and my son!!


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I think sometimes people don't think or just don't realise how dangerous it is to leave small children unattended whether they are in bed or not.
My mother decided that as it was coming up to my 7th birthday would take me to our nearest little row of shops probably about a half mile up the road to get stuff for my birthday party..So off we went in the car,about 500 yards up the road my mum hit a tree,both of us ended up in hospital,i had a broken leg,my mum broke her kneecap and hurt herself quite badly.What i didn't know at the time is my mother had left my 2 year old sister in her cot because she was asleep and obviously thought she would be back before she woke up.We both spent a while in care.Nothing happened to my sister but i bet she would have been scared if she had woken up and no one had come.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Firedog said:


> I think sometimes people don't think or just don't realise how dangerous it is to leave small children unattended whether they are in bed or not.
> My mother decided that as it was coming up to my 7th birthday would take me to our nearest little row of shops probably about a half mile up the road to get stuff for my birthday party..So off we went in the car,about 500 yards up the road my mum hit a tree,both of us ended up in hospital,i had a broken leg,my mum broke her kneecap and hurt herself quite badly.What i didn't know at the time is my mother had left my 2 year old sister in her cot because she was asleep and obviously thought she would be back before she woke up.We both spent a while in care.Nothing happened to my sister but i bet she would have been scared if she had woken up and no one had come.


An excellent point which I bet nobody thinks of!


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Firedog - That's awful! Your right though. People don't realize the consequences of leaving little kids!

Years and years and years ago my mum used to have a mother's help who worked for just a couple of hours a day and on several occasions my mum would come home from the shops a couple of minutes late or for one reason or another to find me and my sister home alone and the woman gone!

When my mum repremanded the woman she said "I work between this time and that time, you didn't come home so I left!.

Another time my mum was sorting laundry out or something and she could hear this weird muffled sound and went to investigate and found my brother had managed to fall head first into a bucket of water and he was only 10 months old and this "mothers help" was supposed to be watching him! She wasn't even that bothered when my mum pulled him out of the bucket just before he turned blue!!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> If the parents were behind her disappearance then why keep pushing the incident into the public eye all this time. If you have done something that bad, you don't keep bringing attention to yourself because you know that one day you'll trip up with your story and the intense media press will jump on it immediately.
> 
> I have never suspected the parents and never will. People think the mother was cold the day after, in interviews. I say that was a woman in total shock, struggling to comprehend how her world had just fallen apart and just trying to find a way of getting through the day whilst dealing with the guilt of knowing she had let her baby down.


I agree, especially about the woman in shock part - one look at her and you could tell she didn't know if she was on this earth or Fullers'. I also think that if they had somehow killed her, the body would have been found by now - there aren't many places a holidaymaker can buy a spade and dig a grave and hide a body with the full attention of the worlds' media on them. I think she is alive and I hope that she has been snatched in some kind of adoption scam rather than a child porn ring, and that she is living happily with her "new parents".

As for having kids creating a fuss when people are trying to have a meal - sorry, but I'd be one of those who did object. I work hard to pay for my holidays and the last thing I want is for a leisurely evening meal to be ruined by some screaming kid whose mother can't control it. If I took my dogs somewhere and they barked all the time I'd be asked to leave - why do mothers think it's ok for their little "darlings" to do the same?
(Dons hard hat and runs quickly for cover  )


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree, especially about the woman in shock part - one look at her and you could tell she didn't know if she was on this earth or Fullers'. I also think that if they had somehow killed her, the body would have been found by now - there aren't many places a holidaymaker can buy a spade and dig a grave and hide a body with the full attention of the worlds' media on them. I think she is alive and I hope that she has been snatched in some kind of adoption scam rather than a child porn ring, and that she is living happily with her "new parents".
> 
> As for having kids creating a fuss when people are trying to have a meal - sorry, but I'd be one of those who did object. I work hard to pay for my holidays and the last thing I want is for a leisurely evening meal to be ruined by some screaming kid whose mother can't control it. If I took my dogs somewhere and they barked all the time I'd be asked to leave - why do mothers think it's ok for their little "darlings" to do the same?
> (Dons hard hat and runs quickly for cover  )


I like this post!! Totally agree with everything you wrote! 

I know what you mean about being on holiday and wanting to enjoy a nice leisurely meal which is why we adopted this alternative system. Everyone has a right to enjoy a holiday and "unspoilt" holiday. It really worked for us and kept everyone happy! We used to eat at nice restaurants at lunchtime and Dominic was much better and more adaptable at that time. It was just the evenings was a no go area.

Alot of other parents don't agree with it but then again they weren't in our shoes having to feel awful dealing with an over-tired, fractious young toddler. At least I was being proactive and dealing with it head on


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

I think more than one person in the complex was responsible. One person in the restaurant texting someone else to say the person checking was back at the table. Second person goes in the bedroom armed with chloroform., bundles her into a wheeled suitcase and takes her away. Who would question someone with a suitcase. The window was left open to get rid of the smell of the chloroform. Someone said they saw someone carrying a child with the same slippers as Madelaine had, I don't think they would have bothered to put her slippers on. Once she started to wake she would have been given a drink to knock her out again so wouldnt have any knowledge of what was happening, thank goodness. Eventually she would be given an overdose.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

If u had a nice family meal at lunch, why would you have to go out again? I'd prefer to go back to the hotel and spend time with my babies,.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree, especially about the woman in shock part - one look at her and you could tell she didn't know if she was on this earth or Fullers'. I also think that if they had somehow killed her, the body would have been found by now - there aren't many places a holidaymaker can buy a spade and dig a grave and hide a body with the full attention of the worlds' media on them. I think she is alive and I hope that she has been snatched in some kind of adoption scam rather than a child porn ring, and that she is living happily with her "new parents".
> 
> As for having kids creating a fuss when people are trying to have a meal - sorry, but I'd be one of those who did object. I work hard to pay for my holidays and the last thing I want is for a leisurely evening meal to be ruined by some screaming kid whose mother can't control it. If I took my dogs somewhere and they barked all the time I'd be asked to leave - why do mothers think it's ok for their little "darlings" to do the same?
> (Dons hard hat and runs quickly for cover  )


Woul you complain if the child had adisability? I.e Down syndrome ect where they can't fully understand?


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> If u had a nice family meal at lunch, why would you have to go out again? I'd prefer to go back to the hotel and spend time with my babies,.


The evening meals were very light as we'd eaten our main meal at lunchtime. Sometimes we'd go to the local supermarket and buy french bread, cheese, wine, beer and sit out on the patio so we didn't go out every night.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't think we're ever going to find out what happened sadly. There is always three sides to every story: what he said, what she said and THE TRUTH.


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

You don't seem to realize that you are spoiling what is supposed to be a special occasion. It is not as if you are on the train to work, people are paying a lot of money to celebrate and relax. It simply isn't nice for anyone that way, not for the other people, not for the parents, and not for the screaming child itself. If your child is too young or too stressed to behave in a restaurant, don't take it to a restaurant. Hire a sitter, so you do not have to worry about the child, and you can have a relaxing, celebratory dinner, too.......

If I was paying my hard-earned money for a long-needed holiday or night out and someone was spoiling it, I might well complain, especially if I had done my best to find a quiet place where I could finally unwind.

I well remember a friend who was madly in love and had finally asked her out for a meal. It was nothing extremely posh, but it was the best restaurant he could afford at the time. They were sat next to a family with 3 rowdy children, so instead of a romantic first night out they had a horrible evening......
He was so ashamed he daren't ask her out again, and he never got the girl.


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> I have never suspected the parents and never will.


I agree really, tho I did find it very very strange when the next day she put her other two babies in a crèche!! 
Mine wouldn't have left my side!



emmaviolet said:


> What I thought odd was she washed her teddy bear!!
> 
> If your daughter went missing you would keep her snuggle with her smell surely?!!!


Yep!


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## Gertrude (Feb 7, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> As for having kids creating a fuss when people are trying to have a meal - sorry, but I'd be one of those who did object. I work hard to pay for my holidays and the last thing I want is for a leisurely evening meal to be ruined by some screaming kid whose mother can't control it. If I took my dogs somewhere and they barked all the time I'd be asked to leave - why do mothers think it's ok for their little "darlings" to do the same?
> (Dons hard hat and runs quickly for cover  )


Agree 100%

If I was the one with the screaming child I would take the child back to the apartment and stay there to eat.
You know before you go away that this will happen so its not like it takes you by surprise.
It always amazes me when we eat out here in a pub or something, Parents that can't/won't control their child and let them run about the place, around other diners, so its 'easier' for them to get on with their meal!
Jeeze that pee's me off!


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

i've always thought they were both weird!!

i mean what kind of parent writes about their daughters 'genitals being torn apart'

extract published from the book!

Madeleine by Kate McCann - Extracts and Comment on Chapters 12 to 15 and pp. 62-72, 129 and 283-4 | McCann Exposure: Exposing myth, distortion, corruption and truth


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

I do think they drugged her, they oeob wouldn't need to drug the twins with them being very young. 

I think dead, you want an easy care free holiday with evening meals you have a single holiday and leave the kids at home

There's been many times in the news of younger mums leaving young children to go out drinking they have been fined and prosecuted why weren't the Maccans? Why weren't those twins put on the at risk register for neglect?

What ever happened they neglected their children, they couldn't see the room in full view if they did maddie wouldn't be missing as they would've seen her or her see them. She sadly had paid the full price of their neglect

I would never ever leave my children alone I dislike sitting in the garden and we only have one way in and out of our house.


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

I don't know how young I was when I was first left alone on holiday with my brother. I know back then my parents trusted the hotel staff to let them know if we were crying and when we were old enough to talk we were left with walkie talkies. 
I wouldn't do this now and I don't think my parents would either. I don't agree about the being left alone would have caused her to panic. We were left when we were asleep which for the most part I imagine we stayed asleep. 
As for when we were older we were told they were only downstairs and if we needed them to use the walkie talkies. 
I don't know what happened. I wish more was known if just so there could be an end to it.


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## Freya'n'Sassy (Aug 13, 2008)

I can't believe any body can think it is acceptable to leave a child of any age for a second, whether in this country or not. Especially people who are supposed to be so highly educated. Never once in my life did I ever leave my children for a moment. 

When my eldest was 4 and at nursery I had a baby, I couldn't take his pram into the building, so the pram stayed outside, but the baby came in! The times people used to tell me not to disturb a sleeping baby, he would be fine in his pram for a couple of minutes... Not likely!!! 

If the McCanns had been anyone one from a lower class they would have been charged with child neglect, abandonment or something similar, and social services would have been around collecting the other two children.

If you have kids that can't sit and behave with you when you have an evening meal, then don't eat out... It is that simple. Surely if you go on holiday as a family then you actually want to be a family?

I have heard many things about this case, including the fact that the children were drugged. That wouldn't surprise me in the least, if these people, who I have always had utter contempt for, think it is ok to leave their babies at night time, then they would think it was ok to drug them. They are doctors, they can get hold of medication easily, and a sleeping child isn't going to disturb their plans is it? Until of course it goes wrong....


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

xbaileyboox said:


> Woul you complain if the child had adisability? I.e Down syndrome ect where they can't fully understand?


There's no diffference imo, because in each case we are talking about an overtired, fractious child who doesn't understand - whether they don't understand because of a disability, or don't understand because they are too young is neither here nor there. In either case it would not be the child I was angry with. I would be angry with the the selfish parents who think that they can suddenly alter their kids' routine and expect them not to be overtired and fractious at the end of a long day, the selfish parents who bring out a child for an evening meal when they should really be in bed, the selfish parents who expect all the other holidaymakers to suffer for their lack of parenting skills. I would feel sorry for any child treated this way, whether the child had a disability or not.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> Woul you complain if the child had adisability? I.e Down syndrome ect where they can't fully understand?


you under estimate children with downs , not all are totally incapable of fully understanding a situation - some are actually much too intelligent for their own good!!


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Nagini said:


> you under estimate children with downs , not all are totally incapable of fully understanding a situation - some are actually much too intelligent for their own good!!


Have some rep! 
I'm a Special Needs teacher; we take our children out on school trips (aged between 4-16) in the general public, some of our children have Autism Spectrum Disorder, some have Downs Syndrome, some have Social Emotional and Behavioural difficulties etc....

Not once in my career have I been ashamed of taking my pupils out in public. They're respectful and well mannered, don't get me wrong, we do have to occasionally remind them of rules, but I've seen much worse behaviour from children without such difficulties.


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## Micky93 (May 15, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Woul you complain if the child had adisability? I.e Down syndrome ect where they can't fully understand?


Yes. It is the parent's job to know what their child can and can't handle and it shouldn't be the people around who have to deal with it. I'm not saying that as soon as a child/baby/toddler starts screaming I would complain, but if the parent's had the attitude that 'oh they don't understand, we're on holiday too' and did nothing about it then yes, I would. I live with a 3 year old who has been taught from a young age what is and isn't acceptable when out in a restaurant - and on the occasions when she has become overtired/upset etc as any young child (whether they understand or not) will go through, I believe it's up to the parent's to take the child outside and go home if need be.

why should people who have probably paid to have a night out to spend on each other and relax without their children suddenly have to put up with a child who is screaming? Not the child's fault in anyway but definitely the parents for not accessing the situation and removing the child from the situation to calm it down.

Equally enough why would you want to hang around ruining everyones evening anyway when the child in question probably isn't enjoying his or herself anyway?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I believe two theories. 

One is that something went wrong and her parents covered it up. I mean, really, what are the chances of some strange person trying their luck on finding an open apartment, the exact time there was no one around? One that just happened to have a pretty blue eyed little blonde girl asleep in it?

Other one is she was being watched, very carefully, and was stolen to order for someone who wanted a kid but couldn't have one. Either specifically requesting one that looked like her, or whichever one could be got hold of easiest. 

I do think its odd that she could vanish without a trace, and in all these years not so much as a hair has been found. I also think it's odd that those dogs scented what they did in the flat and car. To those who say if her parents had anything to do with it, why do they keep bringing it up, well they'd have to wouldn't they? It'd look rather suss if they were happy to let it fade into oblivion.

Oh and I'm afraid I'm one of those who would be very annoyed if I'd paid a lot of money to relax on a holiday, and I got some screaming unruly bad behaved brat near me. It irks the hell out of me when I see them in the shops. I'd get told instantly not to let my dog bark and make herself a nuisance to others, as would other owners. So why should people put up with someone's kids running amok?


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

missRV said:


> Have some rep!
> I'm a Special Needs teacher; we take our children out on school trips (aged between 4-16) in the general public, some of our children have Autism Spectrum Disorder, some have Downs Syndrome, some have Social Emotional and Behavioural difficulties etc....
> 
> Not once in my career have I been ashamed of taking my pupils out in public. They're respectful and well mannered, don't get me wrong, we do have to occasionally remind them of rules, but I've seen much worse behaviour from children without such difficulties.


my youngest daughter has downs and out of the four children i have , she's been by far the easiest , what she lacked in development she made up for in her general outlook on life and her cheeriness (she's always been such a happy girl) she's the most precious treasure in my life and is the apple of my eye , i'm ever so proud of her and everything she's achieved
my daughter might not remember what she did yesterday if you asked her but she's memorized every number one single since the start of the hit parade including who actually sang it she's amazing


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

hazyreality said:


> Our family have always said that, they gave her too much of something to keep her quiet so they could go out, realized their mistake and got rid of her body
> My mum always says there is was something "off" about her mum when she was shown on TV etc...


If something that awful and traumatic had happened to me, I think I'd look a bit "off" for the cameras. People react differently. Personally, I don't cry in public, and if I felt that tv appearances might help bring a loved one back, you'd probably (I hope I never have to find out) see an unnaturally calm looking person, not the person who cries afterwards in private.



MoggyBaby said:


> If the parents were behind her disappearance then why keep pushing the incident into the public eye all this time. If you have done something that bad, you don't keep bringing attention to yourself because you know that one day you'll trip up with your story and the intense media press will jump on it immediately.
> 
> I have never suspected the parents and never will. People think the mother was cold the day after, in interviews. I say that was a woman in total shock, struggling to comprehend how her world had just fallen apart and just trying to find a way of getting through the day whilst dealing with the guilt of knowing she had let her baby down.


That's it ^^^



Nagini said:


> i've always thought they were both weird!!
> 
> i mean what kind of parent writes about their daughters 'genitals being torn apart'
> 
> ...


In context, as I understand it, she's describing her worst nightmares about what happened to her daughter? Those thoughts would torment you if your child disappeared, surely?


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

Nagini said:


> my youngest daughter has downs and out of the four children i have , she's been by far the easiest , what she lacked in development she made up for in her general outlook on life and her cheeriness (she's always been such a happy girl) she's the most precious treasure in my life and is the apple of my eye , i'm ever so proud of her and everything she's achieved
> my daughter might not remember what she did yesterday if you asked her but she's memorized every number one single since the start of the hit parade including who actually sang it she's amazing


And she sure sounds amazing


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## Jiskefet (May 15, 2011)

missRV said:


> Have some rep!
> I'm a Special Needs teacher; we take our children out on school trips (aged between 4-16) in the general public, some of our children have Autism Spectrum Disorder, some have Downs Syndrome, some have Social Emotional and Behavioural difficulties etc....
> 
> Not once in my career have I been ashamed of taking my pupils out in public. They're respectful and well mannered, don't get me wrong, we do have to occasionally remind them of rules, but I've seen much worse behaviour from children without such difficulties.


Too true, I know several children with ADHD, AS or Down, and if they have been brought up well, meaning they are not treated like little princes or princesses who are allowed to be disrespectful to anyone and everyone, including their teachers and parents, they are the sweetest, most caring children, _as long as they are not over tired or stressed out_.
It is up to the parents and teachers not to expose them to things they simply cannot handle, and to instill some simple rules.

Children do not want to be give n free reign in the first place, it makes them feel very insecure. Knowing what is allowed and what isn't, and knowing the consequences of overstepping the mark, makes them feel safe and secure. Children want to feel liked and loved, they want to please, and if they know how to behave in order to be given the positive attention they crave, they are happy. If children go out of their way to attract negative attention, it simply means they do not get enough _positive_ attention. And pleasant, respectful children, who will be given positive attention when they are being good, do not _need_ to act out to get noticed.

If very young children make a scene, it means they feel uncomfortable or unsafe, they do not want to be in the situation or environment they are in, and it is up to the parents to create an environment they do feel safe and comfortable in.

I just read an article about buggies stressing babies out, many of them face away from the mother, while the only thing a baby craves is constant contact with their mother. If they face their mother instead of the world, when they go for a walk, they are far happier and more relaxed.

Makes you think, eh......


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

myshkin said:


> In context, as I understand it, she's describing her worst nightmares about what happened to her daughter? Those thoughts would torment you if your child disappeared, surely?


while i may think it , i'd certainly NOT write about it. :


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## myshkin (Mar 23, 2010)

Nagini said:


> while i may think it , i'd certainly NOT write about it. :


Fair enough, I doubt I would either. But it doesn't make her guilty in my eyes, the opposite in fact, that she was desperate to communicate the horror, to keep people searching.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

I think the only important thing here is that the child is still missing.I hope she turns up soon,preferably alive.Whichever way it should put an end to the familys torment.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

myshkin said:


> Fair enough, I doubt I would either. But it doesn't make her guilty in my eyes, the opposite in fact, that she was desperate to communicate the horror, to keep people searching.


whilst she may or may not have been guilty she was and her husband terribly negligent to the needs of her child and i can't help but actually wonder had they been a different 'class' of people their remaining children would have been removed and they'd have been locked up long ago.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Nagini said:


> whilst she may or may not have been guilty she was and her husband terribly negligent to the needs of her child and i can't help but actually wonder had they been a different 'class' of people their remaining children would have been removed and they'd have been locked up long ago.


I always thought they should have been.Even more so because they are educated.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

myshkin said:


> Fair enough, I doubt I would either. But it doesn't make her guilty in my eyes, the opposite in fact, that she was desperate to communicate the horror, to keep people searching.


Surely you'd have to though? I mean if you just let it fade into the background it would look really suspect.


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2013)

Firedog said:


> I always thought they should have been.Even more so because they are educated.


i did actually expect social services to remove their children , more so down to negligence than anything else , i was gobsmacked when they didn't had they been any other couple from a different working class , it would have more than likely happened.

you know i can't actually think too much about those two , it makes me so angry , i feel more so for ben needhams mother , she never got half as much publicity , yet her child ben still remains missing just like maddie.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> Did he forget about it? Hubby had to come n pick me up once, about a 3min drive away at 11pm, I felt sick!


He forgot it quickly enough, I wish I had. It still upsets me.



Firedog said:


> I think sometimes people don't think or just don't realise how dangerous it is to leave small children unattended whether they are in bed or not.
> My mother decided that as it was coming up to my 7th birthday would take me to our nearest little row of shops probably about a half mile up the road to get stuff for my birthday party..So off we went in the car,about 500 yards up the road my mum hit a tree,both of us ended up in hospital,i had a broken leg,my mum broke her kneecap and hurt herself quite badly.What i didn't know at the time is my mother had left my 2 year old sister in her cot because she was asleep and obviously thought she would be back before she woke up.We both spent a while in care.Nothing happened to my sister but i bet she would have been scared if she had woken up and no one had come.


A few years ago we had a major gas leak in Royston (it was all over the national news) and they closed the town off, would not let any cars in at all. My friend had left her four children with the eldest one who was ten, while she "nipped" to the next town in the car to take one of their friends home. When she came back they would not let her in unless she walked and she lived on the other side of town. Could not even get a taxi; she was frantic!



Spellweaver said:


> I agree, especially about the woman in shock part - one look at her and you could tell she didn't know if she was on this earth or Fullers'. I also think that if they had somehow killed her, the body would have been found by now - there aren't many places a holidaymaker can buy a spade and dig a grave and hide a body with the full attention of the worlds' media on them. I think she is alive and I hope that she has been snatched in some kind of adoption scam rather than a child porn ring, and that she is living happily with her "new parents".
> 
> As for having kids creating a fuss when people are trying to have a meal - sorry, but I'd be one of those who did object. I work hard to pay for my holidays and the last thing I want is for a leisurely evening meal to be ruined by some screaming kid whose mother can't control it. If I took my dogs somewhere and they barked all the time I'd be asked to leave - why do mothers think it's ok for their little "darlings" to do the same?
> (Dons hard hat and runs quickly for cover  )


I totally agree. I avoid restaurants in this country where there are likely to be loads of kids and I get very tetchy if I book a nice pub meal and find a kid or two on the next table!

I like the sound of these adult only holiday hotels they are doing now.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

As a bare minimum the McCann's should have been charged with neglect imo

Being a father to 2 girls i like to have my kids with me or know they're looked after properly.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm a 48 year old mum of three.
I don't have a education.
But I know I would NEVER leave my kids to go drink and have grown up time. They are guilty of neglect.
And they are both shifty and always have been.
I think the police are suspicious but because they stuffed up the evidence right from the begining there isn't much proper evidence.
The cadaver dogs did find evidence but ......not enough.
All the carry on the mother had running back and forwards to the church confused the police.then she washed Madeleine's teddy which had all the evidence on it.then they cleaned the appartment and lived in it.it wasn't treated as a crime scene.just a disaster.they found some evidence in the hire car but again it was a after thought.i think the parent have been let off cos they are doctors.there is no justice for maddie :0(.


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## tashax (Jun 25, 2011)

My auntie was saying that there was a hole in the road that had been dug up that day, water mains or something. It was filled in the next day and no one checked it. I think she got upset after waking up on her own and went to look for her mum and dad and fell down said hole. 

I cant find a link but i am sure it was in a newspaper. 

When i was about 4 i woke up one night and couldnt find my mum. I looked out my window and saw she was checking and locking up the rabbit so i went to go downstairs and fell all the way down. She herd me thank god but i was still very poorly and in hospital for a few days. It is so easy for children and even toddlers to hurt themselves when they are frantic for mum or dad.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But I know I would NEVER leave my kids to go drink and have grown up time


What counts as 'leaving' them. I've stayed in hotels where I've gone to the bar for a nightcap once the children were asleep. In one case our room was on the ground floor and I was closer than if we'd been at home and they were in their own bedroom while I was in the kitchen.


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## kateh8888 (Aug 9, 2011)

Gertrude said:


> I'm not sure whether they had an input other than stupid neglect, but I do have my own theory!
> 
> I believe after the previous night when Maddy woke crying and asked where they had been, she was told 'just down the road at the Tappas bar'
> so the next night when she woke she probaby went out to look for them and maybe got taken by someone then...??....Hence the twins left unharmed and no sign of entry to the apartment?!


I have often thought this too.


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

_i dont think the parents drugged them, im sure i read some where that some kind of tests were carried out on hair samples for traces or drugs and nothing found ????
i think IF she was stolen to order, blonde blue eyed girl, for someone who didnt have children, then the younger girl would of been taken, as she couldnt talk and could of been passed of more easily as the persons child that ordered her.
so,what does that leave, maybe she wondered out of the apartment looking for her parents, and someone see her and snatched her, i really dont no, but i dont think the parents killed her, they were very stupid to leave their children and will feel guilty for the rest of their lives, maybe we will never no the truth...._


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I have heard all the thoeries before so none are a surprise to me - I wouldnt rule them being involved in fact I would put money on it.

But we will never know the full truth  

I completely and utterly 100% blame the parents I think they should have been charged with at the least neglect

Ive always found the Mccanes utterly abhorent in their superiority they have NEVER been held accountable and IMO regardless of wether Maddy was drugged/killed by them by accident or abducted they allowed an "opportunity" for their children to be in an unsafe environment purely for selfish reasons.


They had the facilities and money to be able to afford the creche/babysitting facilities - there were also 6 other sets of parents!!! are you telling me that they could not all have shared the baby sitting duties ?? I know thats what my sister has done on occasion when holidaying with a group- 

IMO all of these parents were very selfish and obviously wanted a "adult holiday" - if this being the case they could have left their children at home in England with grandparents.

There are many young children abducted - take Ben Needham - his mother had barely any coverage in comparison to the Mccanns - she has not written books and made millions in funds 

I hear people say well they are suffering everyday of their lives for their mistake - well so they should!!! - that IMO is the least they deserve - it took two very emotional bouts of IVF for them to concieve Maddy - how can you go thru all that and then disregard their safety ???

What suffering did poor little Maddie go through in her final hours? - waking up and her mummy and daddy not being there to protect her  

At least they have two other children to learn from their mistake


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

Havoc I haven't left my kids in a hotel room.in a unknown place.where anyone could have a pass key.NO NEVER done the the night cap.it horrifies me.i have gone back to bed with my Louis and hubby wanted to drink rum and I didn't I wanted to read bob the builder....lol my son is fifteen now and just got a samsung galaxy for his Christmas.his first phone.he is ASD and never out of my sight unless at school.thats my standard my kids can be on there own when they grow up :0) xxx


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> they were very stupid to leave their children and will feel guilty for the rest of their lives


Stupid yes. Feel guilty, not so sure. That mother is one cold fish and has never come across as feeling responsible. Could be it's her manner and she is just an extremely unlikeable person.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

noogsy said:


> I'm a 48 year old mum of three.
> I don't have a education.
> But I know I would NEVER leave my kids to go drink and have grown up time. They are guilty of neglect.
> And they are both shifty and always have been.
> ...


When JonBenet Ramsey was murdered the police allowed the parents to totally destroy the scene, because they were wealthy. When Matthew Eapen died the police automatically blamed the nanny, because the parents were doctors.

There is no justice if the parents are well off or professionals, especially doctors.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think money has certainly "talked" in this case


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Havoc I haven't left my kids in a hotel room.in a unknown place.where anyone could have a pass key


Well I have. I doubt I was 30 feet away from the room and the staff used to reserve me the table which was effectively at the end of the corridor. Waiter service so I never lost sight of the room. A coffee and a Baileys was usually in front of me before I'd had time to wonder if I fancied anything different. Disgustingly wild behaviour


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I f i'm being honest yes i did believe for a long time they had something to do with Maddie going missing. But now i'm not so sure.
They are imo. responsible for leaving 3 such young children alone and especialy when it wasn't necessary.
I don't believe the story that someone went and checked on those children every 15mins.
These people are doctors for gods sake, they would have known the risks leaving such young babies alone.
Something doesn't sit right with me, but i hope with time and modern technology the truth will come out sooner or later.*


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

If it had been a girl in joggies with a skip cap on that had lost her kid in Spain while drinking.she would fully expect the social work department to have swooped and she would have been arrested.
The macans got off with murder.
And returned to there lovely house and went back to work.
And guilt pushes them forward just now.
I wish they would both do a lie detector test :0) along with there mates who were on the holiday :0).i think more would come out.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

Not that I'm obsessive or anything  but there is a justice for Madeleine web page somewhere not run by the macans where all the theories are gone over.
They the macans have been trying to get it shut down 
It makes good reading.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

fierceabby said:


> *I think it's odd how they seem to have got away with 'it' - as in any level of what they did. If that had been a single mother on benefits, who left her kids unattended to go for a feed and a drink, and one went missing, the social services would have whipped the others out of her care and had her up on charges of neglect. *


This sums up how i feel on it . *NEGLECT * at the very least and Maddie has paid a price fpr it in one way or another i don't think we will ever know.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> Lots of parents drug their kids too with Calpol or other sleep inducing medication just for a quite night.
> 
> I think people are just jumping on the bandwaggon and putting two and two together just because they're doctors.


Do they? 

Personally i think that anyone who medicates their kids when they are not ill just for a quiet life should be shot! I think thats just disgusting behavior and quite frankly child abuse!

I have always believed there was something wrong with their story! I have no idea why they still have custody of the twins! They neglected and drugged their kids :frown2:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> We did it alot on that particular holiday. He was an absolute nightmare to take out in his buggy in the evening! He'd cry, scream and one of us would have to hold him while the other ate and vise versa and we got so many complaints from other holiday makers for making their evenings a misery that we decided to have our main meal at lunch time and put him to bed in the evenings which is what he wanted most of all - his cozy bed! And we'd eat our dinner later in peace and everyone was a winner! No more taps on the shoulder from grumpy holiday makers telling us to shut the baby up!


Isnt that all part of being a parent?

We have to hold li when we eat and we take it in turns to eat when were out if hes not asleep! 
I would either choose somewhere to holiday that was family friendly or stay in at night, take food back to the room etc.

I wouldnt let my kids sleep upstairs alone of i was outside in the garden i would have to have a baby monitor!

Im gobsmacked tbh


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2013)

harley bear said:


> Do they?
> 
> Personally i think that anyone who medicates their kids when they are not ill just for a quiet life should be shot! I think thats just disgusting behavior and quite frankly child abuse!
> 
> I have always believed there was something wrong with their story! I have no idea why they still have custody of the twins! They neglected and drugged their kids :frown2:


people in the medical profession have advised me to drug my kids , infact it were a health visitor who advised i drug one of my children with phenergan to make her sleep
of course i didn't but do wonder how many people acted on that advice when she gave it to them:


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

noogsy said:


> I'm a 48 year old mum of three.
> I don't have a education.
> But I know I would NEVER leave my kids to go drink and have grown up time. They are guilty of neglect.
> And they are both shifty and always have been.
> ...


Hun, you dont need an education to have basic common sense!

All my kids are always with me.. unless they are at school or nursery! I have never left them for a second, would never lock them in a room or gone on holiday and left them locked somewhere strange. 
We only ever go places that are family orientated so we never have any problems in that respect.

i think its shocking how many people dont understand what being a responsible parent actually means.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

Lol I would love someone to tell my babies to shut up or be quite because they are getting on someone's nerves....
And are wasting there tea.......ha ha ha.....lol
PREPARE FOR FISTYCUFFS 
And a proper BARNEY.....lol
Ah dear it amazes me that people think checking others is ok..
Erm excuse me but your toddler who is screaming is giving me indigestion pmsl 
REALLY ????
Lol is that right 
Ha ha ha.
They had better retreat fast lol


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

Even e fire alarm going of in a hotel is a total caffufle
Everyone gets ushered out by security.
They will be impressed a baby is on its own in a room NOT
I just don't get what people are thinking about.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

noogsy said:


> Lol I would love someone to tell my babies to shut up or be quite because they are getting on someone's nerves....
> And are wasting there tea.......ha ha ha.....lol
> PREPARE FOR FISTYCUFFS
> And a proper BARNEY.....lol
> ...


We take the opportunity to teach the kids how to behave when we go out to eat..but like yourself if anyone had the guts to complain about them they would be chewing on their dinner plate


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I wouldnt let my kids sleep upstairs alone of i was outside in the garden i would have to have a baby monitor!


Why would it not be OK to use one in a small hotel then? I do understand that many people stay in enormous hotels with many floors and hundreds of rooms but if you're in a 20 room hotel with a small bar why is it not OK?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

havoc said:


> Why would it not be OK to use one in a small hotel then? I do understand that many people stay in enormous hotels with many floors and hundreds of rooms but if you're in a 20 room hotel with a small bar why is it not OK?


My baby doesnt sleep anywhere other than in the room i am in so he isnt even left alone upstairs. 
IF i did leave him sleep to go outside i would have to have a monitor...whats the difference between the garden and a hotel? Plenty! What would you do if there was a fire and your child was locked in the hotel room? 
I couldnt do it..id be bald with worry seconds after shutting the door never mind going to chill by the bar.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> We take the opportunity to teach the kids how to behave when we go out to eat..but like yourself if anyone had the guts to complain about them they would be chewing on their dinner plate


The very reason I can't stand large, 'family friendly' hotels. I used to find it extremely difficult to expect my children to sit at the table and eat decently while other parents thought it reasonable to allow their offspring to hoot and roar round a dining room.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> My baby doesnt sleep anywhere other than in the room i am in so he isnt even left alone upstairs


Starting to see why we're on different pages - my 'babies' were 8 and 9 years old. I'm guessing you'll allow yours to be 30 feet away from you sometimes at that age.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

havoc said:


> Starting to see why we're on different pages - my 'babies' were 8 and 9 years old.


Mine are 4,3, 8months ...i wouldnt leave them alone till they were in their teens when on holiday. 
Id go self catering and eat in.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

noogsy said:


> Lol I would love someone to tell my babies to shut up or be quite because they are getting on someone's nerves....
> And are wasting there tea.......ha ha ha.....lol
> PREPARE FOR FISTYCUFFS
> And a proper BARNEY.....lol
> ...


Hear hear!

Feck off would be my answer lol... even if they were being noisy, which they rarely are tbh


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

noogsy said:


> Lol I would love someone to tell my babies to shut up or be quite because they are getting on someone's nerves....
> And are wasting there tea.......ha ha ha.....lol
> PREPARE FOR FISTYCUFFS


I find this attitude incredibly ignorant and disrespectful. People have a right to eat in a pleasant environment without your little darlings running riot - and are well within their rights to complain should you fail to act as a responsible parent would and either a) control your kids, or b) remove them to a place where they're not causing disruption for everybody else.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

noogsy said:


> Not that I'm obsessive or anything  but there is a justice for Madeleine web page somewhere not run by the macans where all the theories are gone over.
> They the macans have been trying to get it shut down
> It makes good reading.


do you have a link


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Tamsin W said:


> I find this attitude incredibly ignorant and disrespectful. People have a right to eat in a pleasant environment without your little darlings running riot - and are well within their rights to complain should you fail to act as a responsible parent would and either a) control your kids, or b) remove them to a place where they're not causing disruption for everybody else.


No one in their right mind would go to a family pub, restaurant or other eatery or even a holiday resort & expect to have piece & quiet...
You choose your place accordingly surely


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

noogsy said:


> Lol I would love someone to tell my babies to shut up or be quite because they are getting on someone's nerves....
> And are wasting there tea.......ha ha ha.....lol
> PREPARE FOR FISTYCUFFS
> And a proper BARNEY.....lol
> ...





harley bear said:


> We take the opportunity to teach the kids how to behave when we go out to eat..but like yourself if anyone had the guts to complain about them they would be chewing on their dinner plate





Dingle said:


> Hear hear!
> 
> Feck off would be my answer lol... even if they were being noisy, which they rarely are tbh


You three obviously try to control your children and make them behave, and perhaps in your cases there would be no cause for complaint from anyone dining in the same restaurant as you. But look at your attitudes - "prepare for a barney" - "chewing on a dinner plate", -"telling them to feck off" - why the threat of violence to anyone who dares to complain that your little darlings may just be annoying the hell out of everyone else? Can't you see that if your sprogs are misbehaving and someone complains, it is YOU in the wrong and not them?

Why do you all think that it is out of order for someone to complain if children ARE making a noise? If an adult were screaming and shouting at the next table, wouldn't you complain at that? Why do you think people should have immunity from being complained about because their sprogs are causing everyone else grief?



Tamsin W said:


> I find this attitude incredibly ignorant and disrespectful. People have a right to eat in a pleasant environment without your little darlings running riot - and are well within their rights to complain should you fail to act as a responsible parent would and either a) control your kids, or b) remove them to a place where they're not causing disruption for everybody else.


Agree 100%!


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

Dingle said:


> No one in their right mind would go to a family pub, restaurant or other eatery or even a holiday resort & expect to have piece & quiet...
> You choose your place accordingly surely


I don't object to seeing children. I object to seemingly oblivious parents who do nothing to encourage their children to behave in a civilised fashion in a public place. I've been in a 'family pub' before and seen kids running around tables and chucking chips around - with no more response from their parents than rolled-eyes and a 'kids, eh?' expression. Not okay. Parenting: learn it.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> No one in their right mind would go to a family pub, restaurant or other eatery or even a holiday resort & expect to have piece & quiet...


Quite right. God forbid any parent should actually teach their child some manners and expect them to behave whilst out. We should all suffer the consequences of such neglect whilst shopping, eating out, even walking down the street.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

Do I have a link? The question should be 
Can I do a link....lol
Answer... Erm no
I have no technical ability :0)
I used to get embroiled in madeline.and the injustice.but I decided if the government weren't bothered 
Why get myself in a fankle


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## Aurelie (Apr 10, 2012)

I have two children who are 2 and 5. They are not perfect and neither am I, children have tantrums and play up sometimes, they just do and most of us are doing our best to teach them how to behave properly when they are out. 

But I don't think its unreasonable for anyone (myself included) to expect to be able to sit or eat in peace even in a family restaurant. Tantruming, wailing, running around and generally badly behaved children shouldn't be tolerated and if someone cannot be bothered to control their children they should be asked to leave. Calling somewhere a family pub or restaurant doesnt give parents the right to turn a blind eye.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

havoc said:


> Quite right. God forbid any parent should actually teach their child some manners and expect them to behave whilst out. We should all suffer the consequences of such neglect whilst shopping, eating out, even walking down the street.


My children both girls aged 6 & 15 are actually very well mannered, very well socialised, one is currently excelling in Maths, Science & psychology... the other is excelling in Pony club uk activities & all aspects of schooling... clearly we wouldn't walk into a restaurant full of of folk wanting a quiet nibble.

We would choose are diner accordingly... at the end of the day children are just that & they can have the odd moment.

anyways back to topic:

Slating the McCann's


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

My kids are 32 
The other 31
And Louis my boffin is 15 )
All because I'm a marvellous mother have turned out wonderfully  
But my grandbaby who is 2 has been known to want his pudding before the boring bit of the diner....lol
Biggest son is a biochemist 
middle son a kitchen fitter
Louis is just Louis :0)


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I am just wondering if those moaning about kids spoiling their mealtimes have kids?

Theres never an excuse for kids running round tables or shouting...but a baby having a bit of a grizzle or a toddler having a loud convo with Mummy...thats just life and if anyone is offended by that...perhaps they need to get room service!

I was lucky that my kids when young were pretty good at restaurants. When babies..we would arrange mealtimes around when they would likely sleep and when toddlers we would take puzzle books..pencils and paper..small toys etc. 

I think any parent considering shutting their child in a room whilst popping off for a quiet meal at a hotel or holiday complex is taking a massive chance with the most precious thing in most parents lives..their kids!

I wonder if those that leave their kids in a bed or cot would leave a Rolex watch on their hotel bed whilst popping off for dinner. I very much doubt it! I think there are too many people with the "it wont happen to me or mine" way of thinking


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

When it comes down to it, directly or indirectly, they are to blame for whatever has happened to their eldest daughter. Im far from kiddie orientated but even I wouldnt dream of leaving a young child alone in a strange environment, or even in their own home on their own. 

Ive always said about highly educated and intelligent people, that theres often no commonsense.

The complex they were on had babysitters available or they could have and should have taken it in turns to stay with their children, they are their responsibility.

Speaking from experience, ive worked overseas in a holiday environment and believe me, you'd be suprised how many people forget to pack their brains. Ive had one child lose their life, whilst the parents were not in the area and I have also myself rescued a young child who was almost in danger of losing their life, whilst again parents were not paying attention to what was happening with their child, If I had not been there at that time, there possibly could have been another loss of a young life due to what can only be said as negligence


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

When I was a child we didn't have 'family pubs', we went to restaurants and woe betide me if I didn't sit quietly, eat my dinner and show proper table manners!! I wasn't allowed to take a book or something to occupy me and they didn't hand out crayons & colouring books back then either. I am pleased to say that at no time was my mother ever embarrassed by my behaviour when we went out for a meal.

Maybe if they got rid of these stupid theme pubs and went back to what a dining table is actually meant for, we might have children and young adults who know how to use a knife & fork and can eat their dinner with their mouths closed.

Too many of todays children & adults lack these basic abilities. Maybe we should be looking at why.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Nagini said:


> people in the medical profession have advised me to drug my kids , infact it were a health visitor who advised i drug one of my children with phenergan to make her sleep
> of course i didn't but do wonder how many people acted on that advice when she gave it to them:


yes its true and i was advised to drug my first son for 4 days to try and get his body clock turned around i must admit i was extremely tempted....


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> When I was a child we didn't have 'family pubs', we went to restaurants and woe betide me if I didn't sit quietly, eat my dinner and show proper table manners!! I wasn't allowed to take a book or something to occupy me and they didn't hand out crayons & colouring books back then either. I am pleased to say that at no time was my mother ever embarrassed by my behaviour when we went out for a meal.
> 
> Maybe if they got rid of these stupid theme pubs and went back to what a dining table is actually meant for, we might have children and young adults who know how to use a knife & fork and can eat their dinner with their mouths closed.
> 
> Too many of todays children & adults lack these basic abilities. Maybe we should be looking at why.


We were in a pub for lunch the other week and this family, mum, dad, grandma, child (around 5/6 years) walked in. Before they had even sat down the kids started whining 'Iiii waaaannnnttt tttthhheeee IIIIppaaaaddd!'
The mother replied it was in the car - cue whiney 'Ohhhhhh!' and strop face from child to which the mother quickly added 'But I'll make daddy go and get it for you'.

Luckily I was on my way out - they were on the next table. I think using phones/Ipads at the table is bad enough but that kids dictated how things were going to pan out and blatantly was allowed to for the sake of a quiet life..... god help them when he is older.....


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> We were in a pub for lunch the other week and this family, mum, dad, grandma, child (around 5/6 years) walked in. Before they had even sat down the kids started whining 'Iiii waaaannnnttt tttthhheeee IIIIppaaaaddd!'
> The mother replied it was in the car - cue whiney 'Ohhhhhh!' and strop face from child to which the mother quickly added 'But I'll make daddy go and get it for you'.
> 
> Luckily I was on my way out - they were on the next table. I think using phones/Ipads at the table is bad enough but that kids dictated how things were going to pan out and blatantly was allowed to for the sake of a quiet life..... god help them when he is older.....


sounds like alot of children these days. my cousin is nearly 5 and has never been disiplined. her mum wont let my uncle disipline her when she is naughty so she gets away with everything. she gets whatever she wants. and even talked to my auntie rudely, but she had the sense to tell her off for it. she wont talk with children her own age, she always stays with her mum. they will regret it when she is a teenager.

i know that my mum and dad didnt take us out for meals often as we couldnt afford it, but on the rare occassions they did me and my brother both behaved. if we didnt we knew we would get a smacked ass when we got home, straight to bed with no tea.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

noogsy said:


> PREPARE FOR FISTYCUFFS
> And a proper BARNEY.....lol
> Ah dear it amazes me that people think checking others is ok..


I think that is the way social animals like us work - we interact with each other, including other people's young, and collectively agree how to behave. And if that means I have to risk fisticuffs with you to stop your child tripping a waiter and someone else getting hot food spilt on them so be it.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Tbh if someone moaned about my baby crying they would be told to kiss my fat arse! He's a baby, I've paid for my meal just like they have they have NO rights to be there over me and would be told that aswell!

Thankfully my older two are very good when out they can sometimes get silly but a stern word normal sorts them out they bounce off each other beîng so close in age. My oldest does have trouble with his knife and fork tho even tho he's nearly 9 it's part and parcel with the slight aspergers issues he has struggles with hand to eye co-ordination. So maybe people shouldn't judge


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

LostGirl said:


> Tbh if someone moaned about my baby crying they would be told to kiss my fat arse! He's a baby, I've paid for my meal just like they have they have NO rights to be there over me and would be told that aswell!
> 
> Thankfully my older two are very good when out they can sometimes get silly but a stern word normal sorts them out they bounce off each other beîng so close in age. My oldest does have trouble with his knife and fork tho even tho he's nearly 9 it's part and parcel with the slight aspergers issues he has struggles with hand to eye co-ordination. So maybe people shouldn't judge


ive been out to eat or drink and been annoyed/disturbed and meals spoilt by many unruly/loud adults


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

I actually like seeing children when I go out, I coo over them lol

My two are well behaved and told off f there not, the get punished. But they are normally touch wood very good. They will play eye spy or something lol there 3&4


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> ive been out to eat or drink and been annoyed/disturbed and meals spoilt by many unruly/loud adults


Same the amount of times I hear the see you next Tuesday word used! Atleast children are still learning adults should know better!

We play games like eye spy etc or we chat about rubbish lol my older ones are 7 and 8 the baby is 7 wks he sleeps through 99% of stuff tho lol


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I had an interesting conversation with someone the other day and their theory on her disappearance is her parents.
> 
> They think she was drugged when they went out and they got rid of her body. A guy who had a daughter the same age said his kid would be really panicked if they left him alone. I am not a parent so can't comment.
> 
> ...


I am sure this theory, along with many others have been explored by both the Portugese and UK police

I am sure many people have their own private thoughts on what actually happened that night - but imagine how guilty people would feel if they were exonerated from any wrong doing.

What they did do wrong for sure was leaving those kids alone - I know the guy you were talking to said his daughter would be really panicked if he left his daughter home alone - the children could quite easily have been asleep when they went out.

The eldest daughter could easily have woken up and gone looking for her parents - ending up goodness knows where with goodness knows who.

Whenever we've been on holiday our children have ALWAYS been with us - if we've wanted a childless night out / away - we would do that in the UK where we know we have reliable child-care taking that worry away.

When we did a family holiday, that's exactly what we had - in about 15 holidays just ONCE did we ever leave the kids and that was at a childrens' club run by the tour operator - the kids enjoyed - but I lived on my nerves for all the time I was away from them - needless to say, we never did it again

And as the kids get older - they get more entertaining - I took my daughter and her friend to Lanzarote (twice) the week before Christmas - we had a ball and they were surprisingly entertaining - other than having my bag pinched off the bottom of the bus when being transported to the hotel on the first trip - bother are holidays of which I have many fond memories.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

LostGirl said:


> Same the amount of times I hear the see you next Tuesday word used! Atleast children are still learning adults should know better!
> 
> We play games like eye spy etc or we chat about rubbish lol my older ones are 7 and 8 the baby is 7 wks he sleeps through 99% of stuff tho lol


I could always take mine anywhere tbh, their grown up now and the family friendly restaurants as in the ones with areas for kids and play areas were only just coming in so they had to sit and wait to order and then wait for their meals it was hard at times and stressful but they had to learn and thank goodness people without children were more tolerable, unlike people now it seems.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> We were in a pub for lunch the other week and this family, mum, dad, grandma, child (around 5/6 years) walked in. Before they had even sat down the kids started whining 'Iiii waaaannnnttt tttthhheeee IIIIppaaaaddd!'
> The mother replied it was in the car - cue whiney 'Ohhhhhh!' and strop face from child to which the mother quickly added 'But I'll make daddy go and get it for you'.
> 
> Luckily I was on my way out - they were on the next table. I think using phones/Ipads at the table is bad enough but that kids dictated how things were going to pan out and blatantly was allowed to for the sake of a quiet life..... god help them when he is older.....


*GASPS* so......this AWFUL Mother let her child have an ipad at the table to keep it entertained whilst she and the rest of the patrons ate their meal in peace and quiet...how disgusting!!!!!!:rollseyes:
Sorry for the sarcasm (not that sorry tbh) but they are kids for gawds sake....live and let live and dont go judging quite so quickly....please....you were a kid once....though no doubt you were perfect


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

Even if they were found not to be guilty of any wrong doing themselves - I still blame them 100%.

Their child is DEAD because of their actions - nothing can change that.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

suzy93074 said:


> Even if they were found not to be guilty of any wrong doing themselves - I still blame them 100%.
> 
> Their child is DEAD because of their actions - nothing can change that.


*To be fair suzy, nobody knows whether she is dead or alive.*


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair suzy, nobody knows whether she is dead or alive.*


Well yes thats true but personally I dont think she is alive


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> Well yes thats true but personally I dont think she is alive


IMO...That kid was dead within hours...but I don't know...as in the Kennedy assassination...nobody does. Until bones are found and DNA taken nobody ever will.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

poohdog said:


> IMO...That kid was dead within hours...but I don't know...as in the Kennedy assassination...nobody does. Until bones are found and DNA taken nobody ever will.


Yep - even if she had been abducted to order - the high profile nature of the case would have made it far too risky to keep her alive


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

chichi said:


> *GASPS* so......this AWFUL Mother let her child have an ipad at the table to keep it entertained whilst she and the rest of the patrons ate their meal in peace and quiet...how disgusting!!!!!!:rollseyes:
> Sorry for the sarcasm (not that sorry tbh) but they are kids for gawds sake....live and let live and dont go judging quite so quickly....please....you were a kid once....though no doubt you were perfect


I was bought up to not have bad table manners and I was bought up not to whine loudly to get my own way. 
I think too many people sit anti-socially playing on gadgets at tables when it is bad manners and this woman was letting her child think it's the norm and also reinforcing that he says what goes - not her. 
Thanks for saying I was perfect though - have a good weekend


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

chichi said:


> *GASPS* so......this AWFUL Mother let her child have an ipad at the table to keep it entertained whilst she and the rest of the patrons ate their meal in peace and quiet...how disgusting!!!!!!:rollseyes:
> Sorry for the sarcasm (not that sorry tbh) but they are kids for gawds sake....live and let live and dont go judging quite so quickly....please....you were a kid once....though no doubt you were perfect


Children USED to be able to sit quietly in restaurants without the need for 'things to amuse them'. Children USED to have decent table manners. Children USED to do as the adults told them and didn't cheek back.

So why are so many of todays children unable to do this? Why all the excuses of 'They're only kids for gawds sake'? Because that is what it is, an excuse.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

We took the kids for a Indian last week, there was a table next to us with 2 kids approx 10 & 7 the gran said to them why can't you sit quietly like those to two pointing to my kids (12 & 5 )  :thumbup1: 

I worked in a restaurant for 9 years you wouldn't believe what some parents let them get up to, drawing all over the high chairs , throwing food around, running around the place , i use to have words very often as it's bl**dy dangerous letting their little darlings run into a waitress carrying 3 hot dinners or a tray full of coffee TOO mant IDIOTS out there


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> I was bought up to not have bad table manners and I was bought up not to whine loudly to get my own way.
> I think too many people sit anti-socially playing on gadgets at tables when it is bad manners and this woman was letting her child think it's the norm and also reinforcing that he says what goes - not her.
> Thanks for saying I was perfect though - have a good weekend


Fancy a young child anti socially sitting at a table on an ipad...tut tut...definitely will end up in court on a serious charge when older...being dragged up like that!!!

It makes me laugh when people that dont have kids judge Parents actions (that was just a a shot in the dark there that you arent a Parent....a thousand apologies if I got that wrong)

Granted...if a child/ren are in a restaurant causing mayhem and spoiling peoples enjoyment...thats not on...but a kid on an ipad....hmmmmm

And hey...of course you are perfect...after all...you judge people when you dont even know them or their situation...you have to be perfect to do that dont you 

Oh and thanks...you have an enjoyable weekend too...


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

Chichi I just fail to comprehend how bringing up a child to be completely ego-centric and demand to given what they want, when they want it or else they will act up, is a good thing.

It's only a matter of time on these forums before someone drags out the 'oh I'm sure you're perfect' line as usual. It's tiresome and irrelevant to an otherwise topical and interesting debate. It's healthy to debate and swap opinions but seriously, when someone starts the 'I'm sure YOU blah blah' thing, 9 times out of 10 it starts deteriorating into insults and personal attacks on one persons opinion and every post they make gets picked apart. 

We'll agree to disagree and maybe you can stop repeating how perfect I am and this thread won;t spiral way off course. Sorry folks for rising to it.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> I was bought up to not have bad table manners and I was bought up not to whine loudly to get my own way.
> I think too many people sit anti-socially playing on gadgets at tables when it is bad manners and this woman was letting her child think it's the norm and also reinforcing that he says what goes - not her.
> Thanks for saying I was perfect though - have a good weekend





MoggyBaby said:


> Children USED to be able to sit quietly in restaurants without the need for 'things to amuse them'. Children USED to have decent table manners. Children USED to do as the adults told them and didn't cheek back.
> 
> So why are so many of todays children unable to do this? Why all the excuses of 'They're only kids for gawds sake'? Because that is what it is, an excuse.


I think maybe a bit of generalisation going on there MB. My children were good as gold. Not all children are but I dont judge others on their kids behaviour because no kid is good ALL of the time.

Perhaps thats why Maddies Parents left their kids at home instead of taking them out with them...because of intolerance of people that dont have any understanding of children and that they are not PERFECT all of the time. You have off days dont you. I know I do. As a child you express it in different ways but I guess that there will always be judgemental people.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> Chichi, perhaps you can explain to me how bringing up a child to be completely ego-centric and demand to given what they want, when they want it or else they will act up, is a good thing?


And you know that child is ALWAYS like that or you just caught a slight window of its behaviour on one or two minutes of a day in its life and how the Parent handled the childs behaviour on that one day/situation.

I think you read too much into that family and unless you know for a fact that its how the Parent deals with the childs behaviour on an every day basis...you have no right to judge. But hey...who am I to stop you. Go ahead and slate that Mother. If you have kids one day...you may change your view if you are tired..want to have a family meal..the kid may be not at its best for one reason or another...choosing to let the child have the ipad on the odd occasion isnt a terrible thing. Its easy to judge when youre not walking in that Mothers shoes EVERY DAY. Just saying.....


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

chichi said:


> Fancy a young child anti socially sitting at a table on an ipad...tut tut...definitely will end up in court on a serious charge when older...being dragged up like that!!!
> 
> It makes me laugh when people that dont have kids judge Parents actions (that was just a a shot in the dark there that you arent a Parent....a thousand apologies if I got that wrong)
> 
> ...


I don't bar mine from borrowing our phones to play on while we are out but they are not on them the whole time and the sound has to be off , TBH this is a new thing though. They know how to behave without the use of gadgets.

It did make me sad one day at work when there was a huge family meal and a 2 year old was glued to a film on a portable DVD player not one person spoke to the child


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Pointermum said:


> I don't bar mine from borrow our phones to play on while we are out but they are not on them the whole time and the sound has to be off , TBH this is a new thing though. They know how to behave without the use of gadgets.
> 
> It did make me sad one day at work when there was a huge family meal and a 2 year old was glued to a film on a portable DVD player not one person soke to the child


I agree with everything youve said PM. I just dont like to see judgemental posts when people dont know a familys situation.

As parents we understand that kids have off days and we have days as parents where we may give into something for a quiet life that maybe we wouldnt normally.

Was just trying to give an insight to those that are not experienced parents that judging parents and looking down on them for what might be a one off display is slightly judgemental.

I remember before I had kids how mine were going to be perfectly behaved but unless we get robot children that just aint happening


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> Children USED to be able to sit quietly in restaurants without the need for 'things to amuse them'. Children USED to have decent table manners. Children USED to do as the adults told them and didn't cheek back.
> 
> So why are so many of todays children unable to do this? Why all the excuses of 'They're only kids for gawds sake'? Because that is what it is, an excuse.


i have to agree here,theres a lot of lazy parenting as i call it


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

harley bear said:


> Hun, you dont need an education to have basic common sense!
> 
> All my kids are always with me.. unless they are at school or nursery! I have never left them for a second, would never lock them in a room or gone on holiday and left them locked somewhere strange.
> We only ever go places that are family orientated so we never have any problems in that respect.
> ...


You mean like the woman who, when my Ian was little, told me that if she had a child like that, (brain damaged) she would leave it at the hospital!

She nearly got my fist in her face as well.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

chichi said:


> Fancy a young child anti socially sitting at a table on an ipad...tut tut...definitely will end up in court on a serious charge when older...being dragged up like that!!!
> 
> It makes me laugh when people that dont have kids judge Parents actions (that was just a a shot in the dark there that you arent a Parent....a thousand apologies if I got that wrong)
> 
> ...


what did kids do without ipads? giving a child anything to amuse them in a restaurant is just giving the job as a parent a virtual one, a child for their own good should be taught from a young age how to behave and should be taught manners.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

does no one do THE LOOK with their children anymore
my mother did THE LOOK 
and we knew to sit down and behave.
i do THE LOOK :skep:
even now if i give the LOOK my big boys stop talking lol as does my hubby 
and my kids really are and were well behaved in most social situations.
its a lost ART FORM people need to relearn THE LOOK :skep: :biggrin:
maybe only older people remember THE LOOK from our mothers.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

fierceabby said:


> Chichi I just fail to comprehend how bringing up a child to be completely ego-centric and demand to given what they want, when they want it or else they will act up, is a good thing.
> 
> It's only a matter of time on these forums before someone drags out the 'oh I'm sure you're perfect' line as usual. It's tiresome and irrelevant to an otherwise topical and interesting debate. It's healthy to debate and swap opinions but seriously, when someone starts the 'I'm sure YOU blah blah' thing, 9 times out of 10 it starts deteriorating into insults and personal attacks on one persons opinion and every post they make gets picked apart.
> 
> We'll agree to disagree and maybe you can stop repeating how perfect I am and this thread won;t spiral way off course. Sorry folks for rising to it.


Sorry for disagreeing with you. Your holier than thou attitude provoked me to respond to your post but I shall not do so again.

This thread has already gone OT tbh due to the pulling apart of. ..kids these days...blah...and back to Maddie then.......

I am sure if foul play were involved with the Parents....something would have outted by now. Nobody...even Doctors that are highly educated...can kill a child (unintentionally) and all these years later not a body or a single scrap of evidence.....surely?


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I remember watching a documentary that the McCanns put out a couple of years after she went missing or thereabouts. I watched it agog at the way they recounted the night that she went missing- there were points where the mother was laughing and even making jokes. I just remember being dumbstruck by it all. 
I don't personally believe that Madeline is still alive and I don't believe that the parents have been entirely honest about what happened either. 

Didn't they also release a book about what had happened featuring a chapter about the effect it had had on their sex lives as well? Such poor taste to capitalise on your baby daughters abduction


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

noogsy said:


> does no one do THE LOOK with their children anymore
> my mother did THE LOOK
> and we knew to sit down and behave.
> i do THE LOOK :skep:
> ...


Yes, yes, yes! My kids and my grandkids all knew to behave when I gave them the look! But I don't think it means anything anymore, certainly nothing scary!

Because my son went to a special needs school and there wasn't much academically they could learn, they used to take them out to a restaurant once a week to teach them how to behave eating in public. Pity parents don't do that.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

noogsy said:


> does no one do THE LOOK with their children anymore
> my mother did THE LOOK
> and we knew to sit down and behave.
> i do THE LOOK :skep:
> ...


mine both say to this day, oh watch out that was the LOOK and they are 22 and 25,


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

oh my mum does the look. my god, if she gives you that you run. same with my dad. he is good at the look too.


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## fierceabby (May 16, 2011)

I gave an example of something I had seen that was relevant/in agreement to Moggy's post and you have chosen to jump on it and get all obsessed over it/my attitude/wording and speculate about my parenting then call me judgmental. You didn't just simply disagree with me. 

I'm not going to continue to participate in this debate purely you have turned an opinion-swap/debate/discussion into making me feel like you have a fixation in picking apart everything I write. I'm bowing out.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> what did kids do without ipads? giving a child anything to amuse them in a restaurant is just giving the job as a parent a virtual one, a child for their own good should be taught from a young age how to behave and should be taught manners.


Agreed. Nothing like that around when my boys were small and they wouldn't of had even if it was. I engaged my children when we went out, certainly didn't expect a gadget to do it .... I think it's very bad manners to be sat at the dinner table on your phone, or ipad or whatever. Having dinner with people is a time to converse and be a family, not hide behind gadgets. Children need to be taught that there are times and places for doing different things. And learn about self control.

As for rowdy kids, who cares! I just ignore it and be grateful that it's not me looking after them lol

As for Madeleine Mcann, who knows. And I make no judgements, hindsight is a wonderful thing is all I can say.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

MissShelley said:


> Agreed. Nothing like that around when my boys were small and they wouldn't of had even if it was. I engaged my children when we went out, certainly didn't expect a gadget to do it .... I think it's very bad manners to be sat at the dinner table on your phone, or ipad or whatever. Having dinner with people is a time to converse and be a family, not hide behind gadgets. Children need to be taught that there are times and places for doing different things. And learn about self control.
> 
> As for rowdy kids, who cares! I just ignore it and be grateful that it's not me looking after them lol


I agree with you 100% ime sure when mine were small they annoyed people, children dont just know how to behave in these situations they have to be taught so if during that process mine did annoy anyone ime sure that anyone could see me taking control, not packing up and taking them out because the only lesson learned there is i play up and i get to leave or get to go out and play on the playground, no way, mine was given a menu way before they were able to read, i read it to them, they waited till we ordered, waited for the meal to come and then sat at the table and ate it, i see so many kids in and out of playground or play areas running up to the table pushing a few chips in their mouth and running back again, no way would i have allowed that, these kid friendly places are good to a point but its the taking away of parental guidance that i dont like. All these places do is make sure parents stay there spending more money because their kids are entertained, sorry i dont like it.


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## noogsy (Aug 20, 2009)

a lot of kids arent taught table manners.
the standard is macdonalds for most.
the schools try to make sure kids who have never been taught even basic table manners become better in social situations.
people dont eat as much together.
so kids eat finger food 
never been taught to use a knife and fork.
i have a 10 seater table and try to make sure we sit together and i find out what has been going on during the day.
poor we maddie and her siblings were put to bed so mum and dad could drink wine and eat dinner and chat with their friends.
that could all have been done with them in the prams 
im sure their table manners were perfect and mummy and daddy were in the habit of bedding the kids before they ate their grown up diner.
it all is just so sad :frown2: i do really wonder what was going on.


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> what did kids do without ipads? giving a child anything to amuse them in a restaurant is just giving the job as a parent a virtual one, a child for their own good should be taught from a young age how to behave and should be taught manners.


Times move on , people entertain themselves differently these days , like spending too much time on here and not sitting knitting or doing cross stitch all night :lol: In the old days they may have been doing colouring with pen and paper now they can do it on a ipad and just because they are on a ipad doesn't mean they don't have manners 

I think places to eat are a lot less family friendly these days, i can remember as a kid being able to go play in the garden of the restaurant. The one where i work took out every piece of play equipment out of the garden as have most of the local places .


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

[


haeveymolly said:


> I could always take mine anywhere tbh, their grown up now and the family friendly restaurants as in the ones with areas for kids and play areas were only just coming in so they had to sit and wait to order and then wait for their meals it was hard at times and stressful but they had to learn and thank goodness people without children were more tolerable, unlike people now it seems.


No, people were not more tolerant in those days - as you said yourself, "in those days" children were taught how to behave and would sit at the table and eat their meal or be told off or removed by their responsible parents. Today's parents, however, judging from remarks on here, seem to thiink it's ok to allow them to disturb the whole room and feel its ok to tell people to kiss their fat arse when they complain at the disturbance.

I wonder if these people who feel it's ok for their sprogs to spoil the meal for everyone else in the room would sit uncomplaingingly if a group of twenty-somethings at the next table were shouting, screaming, swearing, playing loud music or video games, throwing food at each other etc etc? I doubt it very much - so why do you think you sould be immune when it's your family causing a disturbance?


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> [
> 
> No, people were not more tolerant in those days - as you said yourself, "in those days" children were taught how to behave and would sit at the table and eat their meal or be told off or removed by their responsible parents. Today's parents, however, judging from remarks on here, seem to thiink it's ok to allow them to disturb the whole room and feel its ok to tell people to kiss their fat arse when they complain at the disturbance.
> 
> I wonder if these people who feel it's ok for their sprogs to spoil the meal for everyone else in the room would sit uncomplaingingly if a group of twenty-somethings at the next table were shouting, screaming, swearing, playing loud music or video games, throwing food at each other etc etc? I doubt it very much - so why do you think you sould be immune when it's your family causing a disturbance?


Yeah because it's ok to complain about a BABY crying?? You only allow it to spoil your meal if YOU do, ignore it or ask to be moved. Simple really or try and avoid places that have children in it etc or just sit at home and be bloody miserable on your own

Sorry most places I've been it's the adults causing the noise not the children, I'd rather see and hear children having fun then some moaning person.

I will tell people to kiss my arse if they complain about my BABY crying, they cry oddly sometimes you don't know why and it's hard enough at times being a mum with a crying baby with some moaning soda in your ear!
Parents with children have just as much to be sat eating food as any bugger else!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The real shame nowadays is that children don't get the chance to learn how to behave. I have a friend who teaches at primary level and sees this. For example, children start school unable to use a knife and fork. They don't even understand the concept of sitting at a table for a meal. 

I have noticed an increase in invitations with 'no children' stated. I never used to see this and I don't know if it's because children are badly behaved or that people started bringing young children to completely inappropriate events. I think it's probably a bit of both. Was a time you wouldn't dream of having to put such a thing on an invitation.


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## skyblue (Sep 15, 2010)

i have no doubt that this little girl is alive somewhere in the med area,blonde children are an obsession in these areas,highly prized

some years ago my mum and dad took my blue eyed blonde nephew to spain for a week,the local women just had to touch his hair


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

noogsy said:


> does no one do THE LOOK with their children anymore
> my mother did THE LOOK
> and we knew to sit down and behave.
> i do THE LOOK :skep:
> ...


Oh yes!!!!!!!!! 

Even the OH is scared when he gets the look. 

When we went on holiday with my step-son he was golden. He has been taught 'restaurant behaviour' and he sits quietly at the table and talks with us. If we went to a place that supplied a kiddy amusement toy, we would all participate together.

When I first met him he was six and it didn't take long for him to realise what was expected of him when we went out. He's soon to be 13 and he is still enjoyable company to be in when we're out and NEVER needs a gadget to amuse himself with either.

Good manners and good behaviour are not that difficult to instill.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

A baby crying wouldn't bother me but bratty children would if i was out trying to have a meal.If i was out for a meal i would have deliberately left my children at home so i wouldn't be wanting to be annoyed by someone elses.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

LostGirl said:


> Parents with children have just as much to be sat eating food as any bugger else!


And people who don't have kids have a right to eat their meal without someone else's offspring bawling in their lugholes! I go out to relax and there is nothing remotely relaxing about someone else sprog screaming all night. As I've said before, I actually feel sorry for the crying baby - poor sausage, it's not the baby's fault that its parents care more about having a night out than making sure their child is asleep in bed. No, it's the parents who think its ok for this to happen that I get angry with.

If parents want to have a night out why can't they just put the baby to bed and get a baysitter? Then the baby is where it should be, instead of crying because it wants to go to sleep but can't because its parents have disturbed its routine and taken it into this strange environment.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> Children USED to be able to sit quietly in restaurants without the need for 'things to amuse them'. Children USED to have decent table manners. Children USED to do as the adults told them and didn't cheek back.
> 
> So why are so many of todays children unable to do this? Why all the excuses of 'They're only kids for gawds sake'? Because that is what it is, an excuse.


Did you not say in an earlier post that you were allowed to take a book when you went out for a meal? IMO thats entertainment also.



newfiesmum said:


> You mean like the woman who, when my Ian was little, told me that if she had a child like that, (brain damaged) she would leave it at the hospital!
> 
> She nearly got my fist in her face as well.


My mom said that about me and my brother...fecking disregardful!

My son who's only 8months old has a favorite 'toy' he has tons of baby toys but he loves nothing more than our galazy tabs he just holds on to it and has even found a way to crawl with it...if you take it off him he cries like hes being murdered. 
I see no reason why kids shouldnt have a form of entertainment when they are out..why would a child want to sit talking to adults when they can be drawing or playing with a phone etc? As long as they use their manners and act appropriately during dinner i have no issue.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> When I was a child we didn't have 'family pubs', we went to restaurants and woe betide me if I didn't sit quietly, eat my dinner and show proper table manners!! *I wasn't allowed to take a book or something to occupy me* and they didn't hand out crayons & colouring books back then either. I am pleased to say that at no time was my mother ever embarrassed by my behaviour when we went out for a meal.
> 
> Maybe if they got rid of these stupid theme pubs and went back to what a dining table is actually meant for, we might have children and young adults who know how to use a knife & fork and can eat their dinner with their mouths closed.
> 
> Too many of todays children & adults lack these basic abilities. Maybe we should be looking at why.





harley bear said:


> Did you not say in an earlier post that you were allowed to take a book when you went out for a meal? IMO thats entertainment also.


Nope! I said I WASN'T allowed a book........ My mother would have gone ballistic if I had asked to read a book at the table when out for a meal.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

When me and my brother were little we didn't go out for a meal much (still don't!), just for special occaisions. But by god we behaved. We went somewhere once that had some little toy cars and figures for sale and some kid was running from the table to get one, running back with it, then going to change it for another and the parents did nothing to stop it. Had me or my brother done something like that, god help us when we got home. So we behaved and we respected the fact that not everyone wanted to hear us over the restaurant.

People do not want to sit and listen to other folk's little darlings running riot and being loud when their out. Maybe people with kids do have as much right as anyone else to be there, but they have NO right whatsoever to make it unbearable for others. Their horrendous enough in supermarkets, running everywhere, screaming, throwing tantrums, no way should someone have to pay and listen to that.

And getting responses such as telling people to p!ss off if they complain about their kids misbehaving, well no wonder their little brats if its other people's faults that _their_ little Johnny is a undisciplined obnoxious little git.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

havoc said:


> The real shame nowadays is that children don't get the chance to learn how to behave. I have a friend who teaches at primary level and sees this. For example, children start school unable to use a knife and fork. They don't even understand the concept of sitting at a table for a meal.
> 
> I have noticed an increase in invitations with 'no children' stated. I never used to see this and I don't know if it's because children are badly behaved or that people started bringing young children to completely inappropriate events. I think it's probably a bit of both. Was a time you wouldn't dream of having to put such a thing on an invitation.


ive noticed the same in schools etc, children who cant/wont dress themselves, or wipe their own bottoms etc

my pet hate is eating with their mouths open, its been drummed into my children to close their mouths, to say please and thank you e.t.c They get nothing in our house unless they use manners, we get told many times how polite and well mannered ours are which does make the heart swell with pride!

I prob wouldnt go to a party without my children purely because i dont like being around lots o drug people which is what parties without children tend to be lol parents letting their hair down!


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

i remember going on holiday to northumbria about 7 years ago. on our first evening there we went out for a meal in a local pub/restaraunt. my mom and dad always went on holiday with myself and my partner and my 3 kids. my kids all have learning difficulties, special needs etc. i actually purchased a t-shirt for my youngest to wear when we went out for meals as he has trouble sitting still and understanding social cues. he is on the autistic spectrum and he also has dyspraxia and cannot use a knife and fork very easily. going anywhere with him was always hard work. his t-shirt helped no end though as straight across the front in huge bold letters it said '' i have special needs ... what's your excuse!!''
so many people judge a child by their behaviour without knowing if that child can actually help it or not. these kids look perfectly 'normal' but have a huge difficulty in life. the days of locking them up in an assylum so people cannot see them have gone and my children are my life. not every child is naughty, they may actually have a condition that makes them behave the way they do. i personally have spent so long trying to get through to my kids to 'behave' but the more you go on at a child with these kind of problems, they get more and more restless and agitated. it may look like some parents are ignoring the kids behaviour but it may simply be that by not commenting is the best way to be. obviously some parents don't give a damn and let the kids run riot - but it's not always the case


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## reallyshouldnotwearjods (Nov 19, 2012)

blimey we have all gone Netmums - or as some of us like to call it numptymums x

I work with the early-years and have so for 10 years, all I am gong to say is children are pushed into education younger and younger and are becoming less and less able, attitudes to education and parenting have changed - some for the better (smacking etc) and some for the worst x The pre-school I worked in for 7 years was one I attended as a child, and so did my girls so have had the opportunity to compare, it makes for interesting reading x

as for the McCann's silly mistake that has cost the life of a child (I believe she is dead) - have they had anything to do with it, who knows x


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

chichi said:


> ..because of intolerance of people that dont have any understanding of children and that they are not PERFECT all of the time. You have off days dont you. I know I do. As a child you express it in different ways but I guess that there will always be judgemental people.


Just picking up on this - as I've interpreted it, no one is criticising the children (myself included). Children obviously can't be held responsible for setting their own boundaries - and generally speaking, they'll test the limits to see what they can get away with (I know I did). It's the _parents_ with the 'don't care', and 'my kids have a right to behave how they want' attitude that are at fault - and sorry if this sounds harsh, but as far as other diners are concerned, it's no one else's problem if you're tired or can't really be bothered. Ultimately, it's your job to at least try and enforce a level of appropriate public conduct, or failing that, remove children as a last resort.

The 'you don't understand unless you have children' argument is also rather tired. I appreciate that parenting is a 24/7 role, but when you're out in public and your actions have an impact on others, it's fundamentally no different to any other job. Everyone has off-days - but if I shirked my work responsibilities because I wasn't quite feeling 'up to it' that day, there'd be consequences.



LostGirl said:


> Yeah because it's ok to complain about a BABY crying?? You only allow it to spoil your meal if YOU do, ignore it or ask to be moved. Simple really or try and avoid places that have children in it etc or just sit at home and be bloody miserable on your own


Babies are obviously fairly far removed from screeching kids that are old enough to know better, and they're also not running around tables and causing a nuisance. This said, it's not something that's necessarily easy to 'ignore'.

I was at a wedding last year during which a baby started screaming in the middle of the reception - the mother quietly got up and removed herself and her child from the room, and returned once she'd settled. I'd be interested as to how you would've behaved in the same situation - and, assuming you'd have done the same, exactly where the hypothetical 'line' is.


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

MoggyBaby said:


> Nope! I said I WASN'T allowed a book........ My mother would have gone ballistic if I had asked to read a book at the table when out for a meal.


Same. In the 80s I had a Game Boy, and it was my pride and joy. If I'd tried to play Tetris at the dinner table? God help me.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

cats galore said:


> i remember going on holiday to northumbria about 7 years ago. on our first evening there we went out for a meal in a local pub/restaraunt. my mom and dad always went on holiday with myself and my partner and my 3 kids. my kids all have learning difficulties, special needs etc. i actually purchased a t-shirt for my youngest to wear when we went out for meals as he has trouble sitting still and understanding social cues. he is on the autistic spectrum and he also has dyspraxia and cannot use a knife and fork very easily. going anywhere with him was always hard work. his t-shirt helped no end though as straight across the front in huge bold letters it said '' i have special needs ... what's your excuse!!''
> so many people judge a child by their behaviour without knowing if that child can actually help it or not. these kids look perfectly 'normal' but have a huge difficulty in life. the days of locking them up in an assylum so people cannot see them have gone and my children are my life. not every child is naughty, they may actually have a condition that makes them behave the way they do. i personally have spent so long trying to get through to my kids to 'behave' but the more you go on at a child with these kind of problems, they get more and more restless and agitated. it may look like some parents are ignoring the kids behaviour but it may simply be that by not commenting is the best way to be. obviously some parents don't give a damn and let the kids run riot - but it's not always the case


This was exactly my point...you cant judge a family...the children...in the time it takes to eat a meal.

I wasnt going to go there, but the reason I was p1ssed at people judging about the ipad is that we have an autistic child in the family...his Mum takes his ipad out for meals...etc...mostly he doesnt use it but if he is finding the situation a bit stressful...he will use the ipad for a while. This child has come on leaps and bounds with his Mum (and his SEN school) ensuring his life is as normal as possible. He is such a handsome young man...looks like any other child...you would only realise his autism if you were to have a conversation or spent some time with him. Better his Mum take him out for meals and get him used to social situations as much as possible...rather than get a sitter. The problems lie with those who are too quick to judge....not the child or the Parents.

It makes me laugh when people go on about when they were a child and were scared witless to move. My childhood was the same...talking at the table was a sending to bed offence. I am glad that times have changed.......


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I prob wouldnt go to a party without my children purely because i dont like being around lots o drug people which is what parties without children tend to be lol parents letting their hair down!


Somehow I don't think you and I go to the same sort of parties. Are seriously suggesting all your childless adult friends are drug users?


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

havoc said:


> Somehow I don't think you and I go to the same sort of parties. Are seriously suggesting all your childless adult friends are drug users?


I laughed at this....I took it as DRUNK people but predictive text had misbehaved

I dont go to adult only parties....find them boring....much rather watch the kids dancing and having fun whilst chatting over a beer with friends....rather than watching people get plastered...each to their own though


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

havoc said:


> The real shame nowadays is that children don't get the chance to learn how to behave. I have a friend who teaches at primary level and sees this. For example, children start school unable to use a knife and fork. They don't even understand the concept of sitting at a table for a meal.
> 
> I have noticed an increase in invitations with 'no children' stated. I never used to see this and I don't know if it's because children are badly behaved or that people started bringing young children to completely inappropriate events. I think it's probably a bit of both. Was a time you wouldn't dream of having to put such a thing on an invitation.


When we bought our first house back in 1969 or 70, it was in a little village and, as villages were, the vicar came around to welcome us to the community. Very nice, we thought, but then he invited us to his Sunday morning service with the assurance that there would be no children there. There was, apparently a creche that parents had to leave them in to attend the service.

We had no kids at the time, but I do remember saying I would not be attending any church service which did not allow children.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

MoggyBaby said:


> Nope! I said I WASN'T allowed a book........ My mother would have gone ballistic if I had asked to read a book at the table when out for a meal.


And mine! I wasn't even allowed a book at the table at home  I've had a hard life  I was allowed one if they just went to the pub for a drink, though.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

skyblue said:


> i have no doubt that this little girl is alive somewhere in the med area,blonde children are an obsession in these areas,highly prized
> 
> some years ago my mum and dad took my blue eyed blonde nephew to spain for a week,the local women just had to touch his hair


We were just talking about this today! My daughter was constantly getting her hair stroked in shops, pubs restaurants whilst in spain ..it got to the stage she just wanted to sit in the hotel room as it really bothered her


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Tamsin W said:


> Just picking up on this - as I've interpreted it, no one is criticising the children (myself included). Children obviously can't be held responsible for setting their own boundaries - and generally speaking, they'll test the limits to see what they can get away with (I know I did). It's the _parents_ with the 'don't care', and 'my kids have a right to behave how they want' attitude that are at fault - and sorry if this sounds harsh, but as far as other diners are concerned, it's no one else's problem if you're tired or can't really be bothered. Ultimately, it's your job to at least try and enforce a level of appropriate public conduct, or failing that, remove children as a last resort.
> 
> The 'you don't understand unless you have children' argument is also rather tired. I appreciate that parenting is a 24/7 role, but when you're out in public and your actions have an impact on others, it's fundamentally no different to any other job. Everyone has off-days - but if I shirked my work responsibilities because I wasn't quite feeling 'up to it' that day, there'd be consequences.
> 
> ...


No it's not, it makes your ears bleed. Nothing but nothing will make me rush out of a shop like a screaming baby. I just dump the stuff and go out

Kids should not be allowed to make themselves a nuisance to others who are out for some peace and relaxation. Children should be seen and not heard.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> Children should be seen and not heard.


I think this of a lot of adults too


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> We were just talking about this today! My daughter was constantly getting her hair stroked in shops, pubs restaurants whilst in spain ..it got to the stage she just wanted to sit in the hotel room as it really bothered her


And if that happened in this country, parents would be phoning the police and screaming paedophile! Strange how we accept that other nations do things differently.

When we took my three year old to Corfu, people kept picking her up and cuddling her and she did not have blonde hair. Since she was going through that stage of hating strangers, she spent a lot of time screaming.

But it is this innocent love of children that makes me think little Madeleine is ok.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

Saw this thread and thought there had been a breakthrough - sadly not


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

when this first happened I didn't have any kids but even then thought it was a bit off leaving them. Now I have an 9 week old daughter I don't understand how they could have left them. If you go on a family holiday you include all the family. So many people would never do this when at home, why would things change if you are away?? Especially if a baby sitting service is available (although hubby said that the service only checked on them every 30 mins - was that the case?).

I also think that if it were a single mum or poorer parents then more would have been done when they got back - didnt the mum of scarlet (the 15 yr old killed in India) get hell for letting her out and have SS get involved? no real difference only we know what happened to her daughter.

we plan to go to Italy when Emilia is 6 months old so will be taking her to restaurants with us (although Europe is more kid friendly) - teach her young and all that about how to behave. However should she not settle we would ask for food to go. Everyone is too self centred these days - i think some need to be more understanding of kids and others need to be more understanding of those without kids, but thats just my opinion.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

WelshOneEmma said:


> when this first happened I didn't have any kids but even then thought it was a bit off leaving them. Now I have an 9 week old daughter I don't understand how they could have left them. If you go on a family holiday you include all the family. So many people would never do this when at home, why would things change if you are away?? Especially if a baby sitting service is available (although hubby said that the service only checked on them every 30 mins - was that the case?).
> 
> I also think that if it were a single mum or poorer parents then more would have been done when they got back - didnt the mum of scarlet (the 15 yr old killed in India) get hell for letting her out and have SS get involved? no real difference only we know what happened to her daughter.
> 
> we plan to go to Italy when Emilia is 6 months old so will be taking her to restaurants with us (although Europe is more kid friendly) - teach her young and all that about how to behave. However should she not settle we would ask for food to go. Everyone is too self centred these days - i think some need to be more understanding of kids and others need to be more understanding of those without kids, but thats just my opinion.


Well, I don't like children much, but I would never complain about a crying baby, because there is not a lot you can do about that is there? But kids running around and screaming in a restaurant, now that is something that is not necessary.

When we were in Florida we were waiting for the whale and dolphin show to begin when this bloke came and sat in front of us and proceeded to put his daughter on his shoulders to watch, whereupon nobody in our row to see. He was not pleased when I complained. Now that is just downright bloody selfish and considering those seats are in tiers so that everyone can see, completely unnecessary.

Or you get the types of planes whose brats sit behind kicking your seat and they do nothing about it, nor do they like it when you complain. You have to be reasonable and think whether something can be remedied, like the brats kicking the seats, or whether it can't, like the crying baby.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

WelshOneEmma said:


> when this first happened I didn't have any kids but even then thought it was a bit off leaving them. Now I have an 9 week old daughter I don't understand how they could have left them. If you go on a family holiday you include all the family. So many people would never do this when at home, why would things change if you are away?? Especially if a baby sitting service is available (although hubby said that the service only checked on them every 30 mins - was that the case?).
> 
> I also think that if it were a single mum or poorer parents then more would have been done when they got back - didnt the mum of scarlet (the 15 yr old killed in India) get hell for letting her out and have SS get involved? no real difference only we know what happened to her daughter.
> 
> we plan to go to Italy when Emilia is 6 months old so will be taking her to restaurants with us (although Europe is more kid friendly) - teach her young and all that about how to behave. However should she not settle we would ask for food to go. Everyone is too self centred these days - i think *some need to be more understanding of kids and others need to be more understanding of those without kids*, but thats just my opinion.


That works the other way too, those that specifically don't want a screaming sprog of their own shouldn't have to put up with other people's. I love my dog, but I don't let her bark and leap around like a mental case around others because not everyone likes that. In fact not everyone likes dogs full stop. I might find her yapping that she can't reach her ball adorable and clever but to people listening it might drive them up the wall. But if they told me to shut her up I wouldn't tell them to do one, because their in the right and I'm in the wrong. She should not be barking like that, if she wasn't people wouldn't be complaining. Same with kids, if someone complains about them misbehaving, its you and them that's in the wrong, not the person who just wants to enjoy their dinner in peace.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

havoc said:


> Somehow I don't think you and I go to the same sort of parties. Are seriously suggesting all your childless adult friends are drug users?


oops no drunk bloody iphone that has a mind of its own!



chichi said:


> I laughed at this....I took it as DRUNK people but predictive text had misbehaved
> 
> I dont go to adult only parties....find them boring....much rather watch the kids dancing and having fun whilst chatting over a beer with friends....rather than watching people get plastered...each to their own though


yep thats what i mean thanks 

Personally i wouldnt take a baby to a wedding service but would remove a myself with a crying baby yes, but to me thats different to eating out.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> We were just talking about this today! My daughter was constantly getting her hair stroked in shops, pubs restaurants whilst in spain ..it got to the stage she just wanted to sit in the hotel room as it really bothered her


my ds was a real hit when we lived in Spain...I did not need to feed him on the beach...allneighbours we stuffing him gladly...I heardly saw him to be honest...
but then...they also had a few of their own blackeyed brood...

:thumbup1:


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> And if that happened in this country, parents would be phoning the police and screaming paedophile! Strange how we accept that other nations do things differently.
> 
> When we took my three year old to Corfu, people kept picking her up and cuddling her and she did not have blonde hair. Since she was going through that stage of hating strangers, she spent a lot of time screaming.
> 
> But it is this innocent love of children that makes me think little Madeleine is ok.


When my son was 10 months old my husband and I went to Athens and we went to one restaurant all three of us and the restaurant staff were all "Awwwww baby, baby baby!!" and unbuckled his buggy and swooped him up and started cuddling him and passing him around. The restaurant owner motioned for hubby and I to eat our dinner in peace and they took hold of the baby. My hubby half in jest said "Hey rach, keep an eye on Dominic cos it might be another Ben Needham case!".


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## tincan (Aug 30, 2012)

LostGirl said:


> oops no drunk bloody iphone that has a mind of its own!
> 
> yep thats what i mean thanks
> 
> Personally i wouldnt take a baby to a wedding service but would remove a myself with a crying baby yes, but to me thats different to eating out.


....... lol i took a baby to a wedding service , he was my 10mnth old son ,,,, and it was our wedding :thumbup1:


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Nagini said:


> you know i can't actually think too much about those two , it makes me so angry , i feel more so for ben needhams mother , she never got half as much publicity , yet her child ben still remains missing just like maddie.


I think Ben Needham's mum has done a very good job of keeping up the publicity for her son. Or maybe its because we live in Yorkshire, where she's from.



cheekyscrip said:


> my ds was a real hit when we lived in Spain...I did not need to feed him on the beach...allneighbours we stuffing him gladly...I heardly saw him to be honest...
> but then...they also had a few of their own blackeyed brood...
> :thumbup1:


Bit off topic but I remember lathering sun cream on my two blonde blue eyed sons in Spain and being told by a Spanish abuela to let them burn black and then they would be fine!

And as to the Madeleine theory. I personally think it's nonsense to think that the parents killed her. They would have had to be pretty smooth operators to get rid of a body that quickly in such a way that it would never turn up. (or perhaps they moonlight as contract killers? )
If they had overdosed her it would have been easier to leave the top of the cap off and claim she had drunk it.

In the late 80's we worked on a holiday camp. There was babywatch patrol. The security staff would do the rounds every half hour and if a baby was crying it would be put on a board in the theatre bar 'baby crying in caravan B12' or whatever.

When we went on holiday to Portugal we went for a drink most evenings in the bar opposite our villa within intercom range. We could be back within a minute if one of them woke up. They were about 3 and 6 at the time. We felt it wasnt much different from being at the bottom of the garden at home.

What the McCanns did by leaving their sleeping children in the apartment is the same as thousands of parents have done over the years. It doesn't make them murderers or evil people.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> I mean, really, what are the chances of some strange person trying their luck on finding an open apartment, the exact time there was no one around??


One conspiracy site I stumbled on said the group made a reservation requesting a certain table as the children would be left alone in the room, and this was written in the book that was sitting out in clear view of the public.

Quite a few different theories, along with picking apart of quotes and news stories. Knowing people who'd had stories in the news (nothing like this) I know how incredibly inaccurate the media can be.

I think she was drugged, accidentally overdosed and they covered it up.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Luz said:


> What the McCanns did by leaving their sleeping children in the apartment is the same as thousands of parents have done over the years. It doesn't make them murderers or evil people.


Yep your probably right there. Had all this not happened they would likely still be leaving them asleep for a bit, as I'm sure many thousands of other parents do, or at least did until that point. You would probably do it without a second though of anything going wrong, just like you would anything else. Its only if/when something does go wrong you realise what a stupid thing you've done. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

LostGirl said:


> oops no drunk bloody iphone that has a mind of its own!
> 
> yep thats what i mean thanks
> 
> Personally i wouldnt take a baby to a wedding service but would remove a myself with a crying baby yes, but to me thats different to eating out.


I wouldnt go to any party or anywhere for that matter that my kids wernt welcome!

I did however take my eldest to a friends wedding he was 10 weeks at the time and was golden...apart from having a poop during the vows...the loudest poop he had ever done


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Luz said:


> I think Ben Needham's mum has done a very good job of keeping up the publicity for her son. Or maybe its because we live in Yorkshire, where she's from.
> 
> Bit off topic but I remember lathering sun cream on my two blonde blue eyed sons in Spain and being told by a Spanish abuela to let them burn black and then they would be fine!
> 
> ...


No its just negligent incompetent parenting! If you leave your child in a house to pop into the garden then i would guess 99.99% of people keep their front doors locked and obviously if the parents are in the garden they would notice if someone had just popped in to kidnap a child!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I wouldnt go to any party or anywhere for that matter that my kids wernt welcome!


It never once crossed my mind to take my children to dinner parties, cocktail parties, launch parties, dinner entertaining clients, bridal showers etc. etc. There are plenty of occasions it simply isn't appropriate.


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## briarlow (Dec 31, 2008)

I don't think that they killed her, but they left three children under the age of 4 on their own. If they had been a couple from a council estate on holiday doing the same the social services here would have taken their children away when they got home. I'm sure someone kidnapped her but they should never have left her, especially in a country where it's accepted that the children can go everywhere.....


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

briarlow said:


> I don't think that they killed her, but they left three children under the age of 4 on their own. If they had been a couple from a council estate on holiday doing the same the social services here would have taken their children away when they got home. I'm sure someone kidnapped her but they should never have left her, especially in a country where it's accepted that the children can go everywhere.....


My neighbours used to leave 5 children in the house alone every night in summer while hubby picked his wife up from work and they went for a couple of pints before coming home. Another neighbour reported them and social services said it was okay as it was her only means of transport. Oh and it's a council estate.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Luz said:


> My neighbours used to leave 5 children in the house alone every night in summer while hubby picked his wife up from work and they went for a couple of pints before coming home. Another neighbour reported them and social services said it was okay as it was her only means of transport. Oh and it's a council estate.


I thought it was illegal to leave children unattended...was one or more of the children in their mid teens?


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

chichi said:


> I thought it was illegal to leave children unattended...was one or more of the children in their mid teens?


Law doesn't state an age that children should be left alone. It states that parents use their own judgements. But it is an offence to put them at risk.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

MissShelley said:


> There is no age limit set for when children can be left alone. It's not illegal. Law states that parents use their own judgements.


I think it also states though that if the oldest child is under 14 you can get done if something goes wrong.It may not be against the law to leave your children home alone but it's damn irresponsible.


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

Firedog said:


> I think it also states though that if the oldest child is under 14 you can get done.


Here is what Direct.gov says. It just says that under 16's shouldn't be left alone overnight. Prosecution ONLY if the child is put at risk.

https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Firedog said:


> I think it also states though that if the oldest child is under 14 you can get done if something goes wrong.It may not be against the law to leave your children home alone but it's damn irresponsible.


Thats exactly what I thought...it was a few years ago I heard this...so maybe theyve changed the law since.

And I agree....very irresponsible!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

MissShelley said:


> Here is what Direct.gov says. It just says that under 16's shouldn't be left alone overnight. Prosecution ONLY if the child is put at risk.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/law-on-leaving-your-child-home-alone


Surely any child of Primary School age is at risk if left alone...there seems to be a bit of a loop hole with no law in place....though the advice is there regarding safety. Clearly some parents dont take a blind bif of notice of advice though.

Thanks for link...goodness knows where I got the 14 age from but Firedog tbought the same. Perhaps that used to be the case?


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

Firedog said:


> I think it also states though that if the oldest child is under 14 you can get done if something goes wrong.It may not be against the law to leave your children home alone but it's damn irresponsible.


Depends how old they are - I think most 12 and 13 (and in some cases 11) year olds would generally be fine for a couple of hours, and sometimes there aren't a lot of alternatives. I was brought up in a single parent household, and would routinely beat my mum home from work after starting secondary school - so every weekday I'd be alone between about 3.30pm and 5-6pm. No one batted an eyelid then - to be honest, I was under the impression this was still fairly common, but apparently not given responses!


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## MissShelley (May 9, 2010)

chichi said:


> Surely any child of Primary School age is at risk if left alone...there seems to be a bit of a loop hole with no law in place....though the advice is there regarding safety. Clearly some parents dont take a blind bif of notice of advice though.
> 
> Thanks for link...goodness knows where I got the 14 age from but Firedog tbought the same. Perhaps that used to be the case?


The law should be clearer that's for sure, with defined age limits set. Don't know if the laws have changed, Maybe they have.


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## Megan345 (Aug 8, 2012)

It's a shame everything needs to be set down in the law. I think the parents that can be trusted to assess whether their child is mature enough to be left alone for a few hours will do so, and those that can't be trusted will just ignore the law anyway. I guess the good it will do is that those parents can then be acted against if some harm does come to their child.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I've got a feeling the law/guidelines stem from the age a child can work eg if a child is legally allowed to do a paper round it would be pretty stupid suggesting it couldn't be alone in its own home.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2013)

Luz said:


> I think Ben Needham's mum has done a very good job of keeping up the publicity for her son. Or maybe its because we live in Yorkshire, where she's from.


she's never had much coverage in my neck of the woods , poor woman


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

chichi said:


> Thanks for link...goodness knows where I got the 14 age from but Firedog tbought the same. Perhaps that used to be the case?


I can't ever remember there being a law in place - I have heard 12 bandied around historically - however - as seems to be commonly known - there isn't a "law" as such.



Megan345 said:


> It's a shame everything needs to be set down in the law. I think the parents that can be trusted to assess whether their child is mature enough to be left alone for a few hours will do so, and those that can't be trusted will just ignore the law anyway. I guess the good it will do is that those parents can then be acted against if some harm does come to their child.


Like many other things (including dog breeding) - laws would be farcical.

I've met 9 and 10 year olds that are so bright they scare the hell out of me - and I've met 16/17 year olds I would say the thought of leaving them alone for half an hour would fill me with dread.

Whilst my daughter was at primary school she always went either to my parents, a child-minder or after school club.

It was only once she was up in comp she started to be home alone for short periods usually about an hour after school and then not every day.

I know I used to cook for myself when I was about 10/11 - although my sister (6 years older than me) and her friends were usually around somewhere even if they weren't actually with me.

I was 17 by the time my parents left me "home alone" - and even though I left home just a month after that - I was about 23 before my parents ever left me alone for any time in their home  I also had my daughter in tow by then


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't think they had anything to do with the murder of their little girl, I do however think it was a very irresponsible thing to do to leave three young children to go out even if it was in close distance, but this is something the McCanns will have to live with for the rest of their lives, they looked distraught when appearing on television and the photos taken for the newspapers, some say she looked cold when she didn't smile and cold when she did smile but how should a mother look when she has lost her child, what expression should she have? 
They must have gone through so much, questioning in the police cells until all hours, they must have been totally shattered, they wouldn't know what day it was, their minds would be all over the place.
To me Kate Mc Cann looked at times like she was suffering from deep depression and who wouldn't after all that had happened, it is a parents worst nightmare and I can only imagine what they are going through every day not knowing what happened to their little girl. It must be so hard just getting through each day. I just hope it never happens to any of my family, it must be a living hell for Madeleines parents and the rest of her family.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I can't ever remember there being a law in place - I have heard 12 bandied around historically - however - as seems to be commonly known - there isn't a "law" as such.
> Like many other things (including dog breeding) - laws would be farcical.


Farcical is right. It would be impossible to write law for this. Based purely on a minimum age it would be OK to leave a small child with a frail ninety year old who couldn't possibly take proper care or react well in an emergency. A sensible 13 year old could be perfectly capable of entertaining a 4 year old for the time it takes an adult to run an errand or babysitting a sleeping child if there is known adult help easily contactable and close by. At 13 I used to babysit for a neighbour's children. It was only a case of needing a presence in the house in case a child woke up and my own parents were two doors down if needed. Mind you, this was back in the days when children went to bed and to sleep at a reasonable hour so babysitting was usually easy money


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## CRL (Jan 3, 2012)

my parents left me alone on the house for 6 or so hours when they were going on a day out and i didnt want to go with them. i was 14+. they wouldnt allow me to babysit anyone until i had first aid training, which i got when i was 17


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I read the book about Madeleine, the questioning the McCanns had to go through and also what effect it had on the twins too when their parents had to keep going away and they had to stay with family, also what wasn't ever published or at least I don't remember reading it or seeing it on tv was the fact that just weeks before Madeleine went missing another child was woken in her bedroom by a stranger, the stranger fled maybe due to disturbing the parents, just across the waters to Morocco children were being sold for sex slaves etc, all around the time of Madeleines disappearance. 
For anyone who hasn't read that book I would strongly advise you to do so before making any judgement, it tells you so much and of things that went on that we haven't heard about from the media...The book was written by Kate McCann...what better way than hearing straight from the horses mouth than what the papers say just to sell their newspapers? 
Also Madeleine should always be addressed as such...she hated anyone calling her Maddie.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

sharonbee said:


> I read the book about Madeleine, the questioning the McCanns had to go through and also what effect it had on the twins too when their parents had to keep going away and they had to stay with family, also what wasn't ever published or at least I don't remember reading it or seeing it on tv was the fact that just weeks before Madeleine went missing another child was woken in her bedroom by a stranger, the stranger fled maybe due to disturbing the parents, just across the waters to Morocco children were being sold for sex slaves etc, all around the time of Madeleines disappearance.
> For anyone who hasn't read that book I would strongly advise you to do so before making any judgement, it tells you so much and of things that went on that we haven't heard about from the media...The book was written by Kate McCann...what better way than hearing straight from the horses mouth than what the papers say just to sell their newspapers?
> Also Madeleine should always be addressed as such...she hated anyone calling her Maddie.


Apparently she introduced herself to the Nannies at the Oceana as "Maddie" so calling her Maddie whilst discussing her disappearance on a forum isnt a problem imo. Ive just looked at one page on the internet where both her Grans and her Father refer to her as Maddie...not surprising that the media picked up on her nickname of Maddie...

When you talk about people making judgements on the McCanns...the only judgement I have ever made is the decision the parents took in leaving three pre-school aged children to fend for themselves whilst said parents went out for the evening. Nothing Kate McCann could ever write in a book would change my view on that. I do..however..pity them and I dont for one minute think they phyically harmed their child in any way but fact is..no matter what evil goings on had been occurring in Praia de Luz at that time..if they had supervised their children by employing a Nanny for the evening..staying home..taking kids out with them..Maddie/Madeleine wouldnt be on the Missing List all these years later.


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## tinaK (Jun 12, 2010)

I don't think they had anything to do with Madelene's disappearance .

What I do know is they were highly irresponsible to leave 3 very young children on their own while they went out for an evening meal. 

That they have to live with, and that they should. The innocent party here is little Madelaine.

I hope they find out what happened to her but I doubt it now.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Even if they didn't they are still to blame imo. You don't go out for the evening never mind out of sight of the hotel and leave young children home alone. 

Why is it okay for them to neglect their children. I would like to know why the Local Authority did take over the care of their other two children, perhaps drugging the children makes it okay because it ensures they will sleep and not get into harms way.  


My heart goes out to that little girl a real shame her parents had brains but no common sense.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

chichi said:


> Apparently she introduced herself to the Nannies at the Oceana as "Maddie" so calling her Maddie whilst discussing her disappearance on a forum isnt a problem imo. Ive just looked at one page on the internet where both her Grans and her Father refer to her as Maddie...not surprising that the media picked up on her nickname of Maddie...
> 
> When you talk about people making judgements on the McCanns...the only judgement I have ever made is the decision the parents took in leaving three pre-school aged children to fend for themselves whilst said parents went out for the evening. Nothing Kate McCann could ever write in a book would change my view on that. I do..however..pity them and I dont for one minute think they phyically harmed their child in any way but fact is..no matter what evil goings on had been occurring in Praia de Luz at that time..if they had supervised their children by employing a Nanny for the evening..staying home..taking kids out with them..Maddie/Madeleine wouldnt be on the Missing List all these years later.


I don't think it is a problem myself on a forum either,I was talking about everyone in general, to respect the fact her name was Madeleine, I am just quoting what Kate wrote in her book about her hating being addressed as Maddie. 
Everyone makes a judgement, I wasn't saying anything against anyone, all I was just saying was the book is worth a read, it gives you more insight as to what may or may not have happened, I myself wondered as like some of the public if the parents had anything to do with it but after reading the book I don't think they had anything to do with it at all, they went through hell and back and still are and always will until the day they find Madeleine.
Like you and a lot of others I couldn't leave such young children even if I were only going into the next room let alone another building. It is completely irresponsible and I wont ever understand that as I am sure they will regret that for the rest of their lives.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Though losing Madeleine must be absolutely devastating for the McCanns...they should thank their lucky stars that the twins werent taken too. They could quite easily have been left childless if the abductor had taken the babies. 

I think I would have more respect for the McCanns if they had openly said that they were in the wrong for leaving their children to fend for themselves. At least that would be a message to any other parents considering doing the same thing. They always seem to be laying blame with the Police etc.....which is a bit of a cop out to me. If I have missed them admitting their major part in Madeleines abduction by leaving her alone...then apologies...but I have never heard anything of that nature from Kate or Gerry. Maybe Ive missed it.

And for those who say that hindsight is a wonderful thing...there is such a thing as risk assessment. As educated people... it must have crossed their minds that they were taking a massive risk leaving those kids. If it didnt cross their minds then it doesnt make sense. Not to me anyway.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

chichi said:


> Though losing Madeleine must be absolutely devastating for the McCanns...they should thank their lucky stars that the twins werent taken too. They could quite easily have been left childless if the abductor had taken the babies.
> 
> I think I would have more respect for the McCanns if they had openly said that they were in the wrong for leaving their children to fend for themselves. At least that would be a message to any other parents considering doing the same thing. They always seem to be laying blame with the Police etc.....which is a bit of a cop out to me. If I have missed them admitting their major part in Madeleines abduction by leaving her alone...then apologies...but I have never heard anything of that nature from Kate or Gerry. Maybe Ive missed it.
> 
> *And for those who say that hindsight is a wonderful thing...there is such a thing as risk assessment. As educated people... it must have crossed their minds that they were taking a massive risk leaving those kids. If it didnt cross their minds then it doesnt make sense. *Not to me anyway.


Not that many years ago, it was quite usual for mothers to leave their babies in the their prams outside the front door whilst they went about their daily chores in the house. Prams, with baby inside, would often be left outside the local shops whilst the mother went in to do her shopping. As a child, I was left alone in the car regularly whilst my mum did whatever she was doing. Of an evening time, she would - on occasion - leave me in my bed whilst she popped off to see a neighbour either across the landing or downstairs. Sometimes she would be away for up to half an hour. In the 80's, when we went to Pontins on holiday, the baby-sitting service there only walked past the chalets every haf an hour. No different from what the McCanns & their friends were doing.

The point of this is that for a very long time people had more trust in the world and were not so 'smothering' (sorry, can't find a better word at the moment) with their children. The McCanns are of a similar age to myself so they most likely grew up in the same era of social circumstances. We tend to do as our parents did, in many ways, so it probably never even crossed their mind that they would be the unlucky ones and have this happen to them.

I do not blame Kate & Gerry for what has happened. I think the weight of the blame & guilt they lay upon themselves will be far greater than anything I, or anyone else who feels so righteous, can throw at them.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> [
> 
> No, people were not more tolerant in those days - as you said yourself, "in those days" children were taught how to behave and would sit at the table and eat their meal or be told off or removed by their responsible parents. Today's parents, however, judging from remarks on here, seem to thiink it's ok to allow them to disturb the whole room and feel its ok to tell people to kiss their fat arse when they complain at the disturbance.
> 
> I wonder if these people who feel it's ok for their sprogs to spoil the meal for everyone else in the room would sit uncomplaingingly if a group of twenty-somethings at the next table were shouting, screaming, swearing, playing loud music or video games, throwing food at each other etc etc? I doubt it very much - so why do you think you sould be immune when it's your family causing a disturbance?


I dont agree with children causing a nuisance thats why i never allowed mine to. i can tolerate a crying baby,toddler ir a whining bored child if the parents are doing their best to teach,console the child as thats how children learn, uts the ones that allow their kids to get up and down from the table, race around,shout and its usually around other peoples tables, they can teach em that because afterall its easier for them to annoy others than take time to teach them whats acceptable hehaviour i would and i have complained about parents with kids like that.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> Not that many years ago, it was quite usual for mothers to leave their babies in the their prams outside the front door whilst they went about their daily chores in the house. Prams, with baby inside, would often be left outside the local shops whilst the mother went in to do her shopping. As a child, I was left alone in the car regularly whilst my mum did whatever she was doing. Of an evening time, she would - on occasion - leave me in my bed whilst she popped off to see a neighbour either across the landing or downstairs. Sometimes she would be away for up to half an hour. In the 80's, when we went to Pontins on holiday, the baby-sitting service there only walked past the chalets every haf an hour. No different from what the McCanns & their friends were doing.
> 
> The point of this is that for a very long time people had more trust in the world and were not so 'smothering' (sorry, can't find a better word at the moment) with their children. The McCanns are of a similar age to myself so they most likely grew up in the same era of social circumstances. We tend to do as our parents did, in many ways, so it probably never even crossed their mind that they would be the unlucky ones and have this happen to them.
> 
> I do not blame Kate & Gerry for what has happened. I think the weight of the blame & guilt they lay upon themselves will be far greater than anything I, or anyone else who feels so righteous, can throw at them.


I agree with this totally!! Even when my daughter was a baby I'd leave her in her car seat while I nipped into my son's school to collect him. At the petrol station she'd be in the car seat while I paid for the petrol.

It was just alot of hassle to keep picking her up out of the carseat willy nilly especially if she was asleep.

I've always been brought up to be independent. I used to walk a mile to and from school alone at 8 years old. When I was 9 I used to catch the bus to Poole (an hour and a half bus ride) and go to the swimming pool on my own. I learnt how to read a bus timetable and lots of other life lessons that I wouldn't have learnt if my mother hadn't cut the apron strings.

So many kids nowadays are mollycoddled and aren't even allowed outside to play!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> Not that many years ago, it was quite usual for mothers to leave their babies in the their prams outside the front door whilst they went about their daily chores in the house. Prams, with baby inside, would often be left outside the local shops whilst the mother went in to do her shopping. As a child, I was left alone in the car regularly whilst my mum did whatever she was doing. Of an evening time, she would - on occasion - leave me in my bed whilst she popped off to see a neighbour either across the landing or downstairs. Sometimes she would be away for up to half an hour. In the 80's, when we went to Pontins on holiday, the baby-sitting service there only walked past the chalets every haf an hour. No different from what the McCanns & their friends were doing.
> 
> The point of this is that for a very long time people had more trust in the world and were not so 'smothering' (sorry, can't find a better word at the moment) with their children. The McCanns are of a similar age to myself so they most likely grew up in the same era of social circumstances. We tend to do as our parents did, in many ways, so it probably never even crossed their mind that they would be the unlucky ones and have this happen to them.
> 
> I do not blame Kate & Gerry for what has happened. I think the weight of the blame & guilt they lay upon themselves will be far greater than anything I, or anyone else who feels so righteous, can throw at them.


Although you are quite right about different times, nobody went abroad for their holidays then, did they? I can't see any parents of that era leaving their children in a foreign hotel room and Madeleine did not go missing during those easy, simpler times. I said when it happened that they were irresponsible to leave the children alone; I would not have left mine, not then not earlier.

Every Saturday night, my brother, me, and our parents' friends' son, would eat crisps and drink lemonade in the car outside the pub whilst they were inside having a drink. Quite safe, but that was back in the fifties.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Iheartcats said:


> I agree with this totally!! Even when my daughter was a baby I'd leave her in her car seat while I nipped into my son's school to collect him. At the petrol station she'd be in the car seat while I paid for the petrol.
> 
> It was just alot of hassle to keep picking her up out of the carseat willy nilly especially if she was asleep.
> 
> ...


*How can you say it was just a lot of hassle? Sorry but your post has shocked me.
Parents are SUPPOSED to protect their children. Have you not heard of the cases where cars are stolen with kids in them, or where the car has caught alight?
Sh*t i could not live with myself if i left a child unattended.
And no, i don't agree with kids being " mollycoddled", but as i've said. parents ARE responsible for their children.*


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Iheartcats said:


> I agree with this totally!! Even when my daughter was a baby I'd leave her in her car seat while I nipped into my son's school to collect him. At the petrol station she'd be in the car seat while I paid for the petrol.
> 
> It was just alot of hassle to keep picking her up out of the carseat willy nilly especially if she was asleep.
> 
> ...


Aged 8!!!!!!  You WERE mollycoddled luv!!!  I was walking myself to school from when I started aged 5. That included crossing a very busy main road.

And my mother wonders why I am so independant and want nothing from her.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> I agree with this totally!! Even when my daughter was a baby I'd leave her in her car seat while I nipped into my son's school to collect him. At the petrol station she'd be in the car seat while I paid for the petrol.
> 
> It was just alot of hassle to keep picking her up out of the carseat willy nilly especially if she was asleep.
> 
> ...


Leaving the baby in the car while you nip in to school to grab your son, or pay for petrol where you can see the car from the shop, is hardly the same as leaving three young children in a strange hotel room while you bugger off for the evening to enjoy your meal, and nowhere in sight of the hotel.

If I stop off for petrol with the dogs in the car I make sure I can see them and I lock the doors in case some idiot lets them out.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> Aged 8!!!!!!  You WERE mollycoddled luv!!!  I was walking myself to school from when I started aged 5. That included crossing a very busy main road.
> 
> And my mother wonders why I am so independant and want nothing from her.


I used to travel across London on the bus when I was eight to take my mum's outdoor work back to the factory in Hackney. But that was in the fifties, a much easier time.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I am sorry. ....not going to single any posts out.......but some recent posts have shocked me. No wonder kids get hurt...go missing...etc...with some parents idea of parenting.

There is a MASSIVE difference between being mollycoddled and being raised by responsible caring parents.

Regarding...in those days...I have a DD coming up to 20 years old...so I am no spring chicken but my Parents never left me alone...or let me walk to and from school until I was at Secondary School. I am a fiercely independent woman...as were/are my siblings. We have all gone on to have children and treated our kids with the same amount of love and protection...

As for leaving kids outside shops...my Mum has told me that people used to do it but she never did cos even in those days...babies did get snatched.

I think many people go around thinking that tragedys wont happen to them. I am the opposite...I will look for the danger and avoid at all costs if possible. If that makes me a mollycoddler then so be it...but in my world that is called responsible parenting.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

chichi said:


> I am sorry. ....not going to single any posts out.......but some recent posts have shocked me. No wonder kids get hurt...go missing...etc...with some parents idea of parenting.
> 
> There is a MASSIVE difference between being mollycoddled and being raised by responsible caring parents.
> 
> ...


Ha! MoggyBaby, I too had to cross a busy road too on my way to Primary School.

Secondary school???? That's ridiculous. What did they do walk with you? Most secondary school kids don't want their parents within arms reach lol!

I used to go out to play and first light and come home at tea time. No mobile phone nothing. Mum used to give me 2p to make a phone call if I needed to. She trusted me to be sensible and not to abuse her trust.

I was raised by loving responsible parents who allowed me to make my own decisions and not be brought up with the "do as your told" mentality.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

chichi said:


> I am sorry. ....not going to single any posts out.......but some recent posts have shocked me. No wonder kids get hurt...go missing...etc...with some parents idea of parenting.
> 
> There is a MASSIVE difference between being mollycoddled and being raised by responsible caring parents.
> 
> ...


My mother left me in my pram outside a shop and went home without me. Later in the afternoon, she suddenly thought how quiet the baby was, then remembered where she had seen her last!

To be fair, she was 42 years old and my eldest brother was twenty when I was born so I think she was worn away, but how long would it have been today before somebody phoned social services, and my brother and me would have been taken into care? It was 1948 - Different times, easier times, though not so good for children who were genuinely abused or neglected.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Iheartcats said:


> Ha! MoggyBaby, I too had to cross a busy road too on my way to Primary School.
> 
> Secondary school???? That's ridiculous. What did they do walk with you? Most secondary school kids don't want their parents within arms reach lol!
> 
> ...


If you read my post I said UNTIL I went to Secondary school.

Even then I had an older Brother to keep an eye if I had any problems.

Whos talking about children making decisions and the do as your told subject?

Can I ask.....would you let your child...at Primary School age..... cross a busy road?


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> Ha! MoggyBaby, I too had to cross a busy road too on my way to Primary School.
> 
> Secondary school???? That's ridiculous. What did they do walk with you? Most secondary school kids don't want their parents within arms reach lol!
> 
> ...


I think this is very unfair.

My son walked to the bus stop and catches a bus to and from school from 11 years old i don't molly coddle my children BUT there would be no way in hell i would leave one child in a hotel room let alone 3 children 3 and under ! I've had kids and know how quickly they become ill , one had febrile convulsions which is common in young children, walking past their door once every 20 mins would not of told me this ! I think a few of you need to go and measure 120m it would take you over a minute to walk at a fair pace, a minute is a long time when you measure it ! Hardly compared to the end of most peoples gardens .


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I must be very lucky then, because I've only walked home a handful of times in the whole time I was there. My Dad came to pick me up everyday (and take me), right until I left college. And my brother. And he still drives me round cos I cant drive.

Surely if your out you wouldn't really disrupt a kid from its sleep if you were just nipping to pay for petrol? Or popping into a shop? Why not just lock the doors? Do people really think out every little thing that could go wrong before they do something? What if your walking the dog and want a chocolate bar, wouldn't you just tie the dog up outside whilst you go in? You can't think over every little decision you make, you'd run out of time!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> I must be very lucky then, because I've only walked home a handful of times in the whole time I was there. My Dad came to pick me up everyday (and take me), right until I left college. And my brother. And he still drives me round cos I cant drive.
> 
> Surely if your out you wouldn't really disrupt a kid from its sleep if you were just nipping to pay for petrol? Or popping into a shop? Why not just lock the doors? Do people really think out every little thing that could go wrong before they do something? What if your walking the dog and want a chocolate bar, wouldn't you just tie the dog up outside whilst you go in? You can't think over every little decision you make, you'd run out of time!


No, I wouldn't tie the dog up outside. I wanted some cigarettes once when out with Diva on a lead and I asked the shopkeeper if I could bring her in, since we were not going into the main shop just to the counter next to the door. He was fine with it, but I ended up having a bit of an argument with someone else.

If you have a child in the car, you can lock the car doors, but in a pushchair that is a different matter.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

To be fair to myself and my loving parents I grew up in a small, safe seaside town and everyone else was walking to and from school from an early age too and going out to play with their friends. It wasn't as if I was living in a rough inner city.

I've joined a group on facebook called Swanage Kids in the 70's and 80's where we can all share our own experiences and its such a wonderful stroll down memory lane!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> I agree with this totally!! Even when my daughter was a baby I'd leave her in her car seat while I nipped into my son's school to collect him. At the petrol station she'd be in the car seat while I paid for the petrol.
> 
> It was just alot of hassle to keep picking her up out of the carseat willy nilly especially if she was asleep.
> 
> ...


Hassle? If its too much hassle to make sure they are not left alone locked in a strange hotel room or outside a shop while you do your shopping then im sorry but...why the feck have them in the first place?

Im sorry but its posts like this that really take me aback and quite frankly boil my p1ss!

No wonder so many kids go missing and get hurt when parents just quite frankly couldnt give a toss because when it comes to it parenting properly is far too much hassle!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> I must be very lucky then, because I've only walked home a handful of times in the whole time I was there. My Dad came to pick me up everyday (and take me), right until I left college. And my brother. And he still drives me round cos I cant drive.
> 
> Surely if your out you wouldn't really disrupt a kid from its sleep if you were just nipping to pay for petrol? Or popping into a shop? Why not just lock the doors? Do people really think out every little thing that could go wrong before they do something? What if your walking the dog and want a chocolate bar, wouldn't you just tie the dog up outside whilst you go in? You can't think over every little decision you make, you'd run out of time!


If you go and get petrol you can always see the car from the kiosk also there are pay at pump options at almost every station these days.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Hassle? If its too much hassle to make sure they are not left alone locked in a strange hotel room or outside a shop while you do your shopping then im sorry but...why the feck have them in the first place?
> 
> Im sorry but its posts like this that really take me aback and quite frankly boil my p1ss!
> 
> No wonder so many kids go missing and get hurt when parents just quite frankly couldnt give a toss because when it comes to it parenting properly is far too much hassle!


I never said I'd leave my kids in the buggy outside a shop.

Its all the 24 hour news on our tv screens that seem to scaremonger even the most intelligent people.

How many kids to you know personally that have gone missing?


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> I never said I'd leave my kids in the buggy outside a shop.
> 
> Its all the 24 hour news on our tv screens that seem to scaremonger even the most intelligent people.
> 
> How many kids to you know personally that have gone missing?


None personally...but i still wouldnt put the most precious things in the world at risk.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I would NEVER tie any dog outside a shop no matter how much I needed something.

I think most parents just naturally make decisions on whats safe to do and whats not safe. We dont spend all day weighing up options...etc...

I would..have..left a baby strapped in his child seat whilst I nipped in to pay for petrol. I would wait for the nearest pump to the kiosk door and pay with cash..my babies werent out of eyeshot for a single second.

Letting a pre secondary age child cross a busy road.....not on yerrr life!!!

We of course have different views and weigh up options in relation to where we live ...but in the case of the McCanns...there is no reason on this planet to think it safe to leave 3 toddlers unsupervised for the evening...just with 20 minute listening periods at the door. I am shocked they werent investigated by Social Services tbh.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm quite surprised at people saying they wouldn't tie their dogs up. Maybe its where I am, but everyone does it here, there's always dogs outside shops. One guy I knew had a wonderfully behaved collie, went everywhere with no lead and would wait outside places for its owner without being tethered to anything. I prefer to be able to see my dog, but I do tie her up outside. I wouldn't do it if I lived in the city or something though.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

If anyone tied a Chi up outside a shop...they would be mad. Light fingered no goods would whip them away in a flash...knowing theres a good few hundred quid sell on prospects...minimum...even without papers.

Also there are people with little kids that think your dog is a plaything for their spiteful little darlings. Ive had to tell people to mind their kids when I am standing there...if I was out of view I expect some little kids would pick a Chi up (not the safest situation for a tiny breed).


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

harley bear said:


> Hassle? If its too much hassle to make sure they are not left alone locked in a strange hotel room or outside a shop while you do your shopping then im sorry but...why the feck have them in the first place?
> 
> Im sorry but its posts like this that really take me aback and quite frankly boil my p1ss!
> 
> *No wonder so many kids go missing and get hurt when parents just quite frankly couldnt give a toss* because when it comes to it parenting properly is far too much hassle!


But wasn't it - very bluntly - pointed out near the start of this thread that the majority of missing or abused children happens at the hands of someone they know......????

The child left alone in the car, or outside the shop in the buggy, may actually be safer than they would be at home if the above is true.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> I'm quite surprised at people saying they wouldn't tie their dogs up. Maybe its where I am, but everyone does it here, there's always dogs outside shops. One guy I knew had a wonderfully behaved collie, went everywhere with no lead and would wait outside places for its owner without being tethered to anything. I prefer to be able to see my dog, but I do tie her up outside. I wouldn't do it if I lived in the city or something though.


Yes it's quite the norm here too. I daren't leave mine because of neuroses inspired by this forum, but had to the other night due to factors which would take too long to explain. It was like supermarket sweep with the lady on customer services keeping an eye on them and giving me a running commentary!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

chichi said:


> If anyone tied a Chi up outside a shop...they would be mad. Light fingered no goods would whip them away in a flash...knowing theres a good few hundred quid sell on prospects...minimum...even without papers.
> 
> Also there are people with little kids that think your dog is a plaything for their spiteful little darlings. Ive had to tell people to mind their kids when I am standing there...if I was out of view I expect some little kids would pick a Chi up (not the safest situation for a tiny breed).


If you (general you) don't tie your dog up outside shops, would you equally follow it out to the garden last thing at night? It would be just as easy for someone to open the gate and let it out, or a small dog, lift it over the fence. I wouldn't tie a valuable cute little dog like a chi/ yorkie/ pom/ pap, up though, they probably wouldn't still be there when you went back out!

as to your second point, my view is if parents are stupid enough to let their kids go and pet a dog tied outside a shop that they have no idea of, well it's tough if the little darlings get bit. The first thing they say is don't pet a dog without permission. No wonder so many get bitten when they don't even stick to that bit of advice.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Wobbles said:


> If you (general you) don't tie your dog up outside shops, would you equally follow it out to the garden last thing at night? It would be just as easy for someone to open the gate and let it out, or a small dog, lift it over the fence. I wouldn't tie a valuable cute little dog like a chi/ yorkie/ pom/ pap, up though, they probably wouldn't still be there when you went back out!
> 
> as to your second point, my view is if parents are stupid enough to let their kids go and pet a dog tied outside a shop that they have no idea of, well it's tough if the little darlings get bit. The first thing they say is don't pet a dog without permission. No wonder so many get bitten when they don't even stick to that bit of advice.


I have really high fences. The place is maximum security...lol. Its a fear of mine that one of the little ones get snatched. I do go out with the Chis at night...more to do poo collection than anything else though.

If it was allowed....I would have a moat all around the house with crocodiles in....ready to eat any intruders but I'm not sure I would get permission from the Local Authority....so unreasonable:tongue_smilie:


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## poohdog (May 16, 2010)

chichi said:


> I have really high fences. The place is maximum security...lol. Its a fear of mine that one of the little ones get snatched. I do go out with the Chis at night...more to do poo collection than anything else though.
> 
> If it was allowed....I would have a moat all around the house with crocodiles in....ready to eat any intruders but I'm not sure I would get permission from the Local Authority....so unreasonable:tongue_smilie:


Come live round here,they'd nick your crocodiles.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wobbles said:


> If you (general you) don't tie your dog up outside shops, would you equally follow it out to the garden last thing at night? It would be just as easy for someone to open the gate and let it out, or a small dog, lift it over the fence. I wouldn't tie a valuable cute little dog like a chi/ yorkie/ pom/ pap, up though, they probably wouldn't still be there when you went back out!
> 
> as to your second point, my view is if parents are stupid enough to let their kids go and pet a dog tied outside a shop that they have no idea of, well it's tough if the little darlings get bit. The first thing they say is don't pet a dog without permission. No wonder so many get bitten when they don't even stick to that bit of advice.


My gate is padlocked from the inside, because Ferdie can open it. There are high fences all around and either side is next door's gardens, so inaccessible to anyone else. And I don't have anyone else's obnoxious brats lurking about my garden.

I don't think anyone is really concerned about whether somebody horrible child gets bitten while messing with a small dog; they are concerned with the dog getting hurt by said horrible child.

It is all very well to say it serves the brat right if it gets bitten, but in this day and age any dopey mother who would let her kid mess with the dog, is going to scream dangerous dog and then you have a major problem on your hands.

I will say that if I see someone tying their dog up outside a shop, I will hang around till they come back to make sure nobody else walks off with it.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> My gate is padlocked from the inside, because Ferdie can open it. There are high fences all around and either side is next door's gardens, so inaccessible to anyone else. And I don't have anyone else's obnoxious brats lurking about my garden.
> 
> I don't think anyone is really concerned about whether somebody horrible child gets bitten while messing with a small dog; they are concerned with the dog getting hurt by said horrible child.
> 
> ...


I once offended a mother when her 2 kids wanted to stroke my 2 dogs, she said are you dogs ok with children, i replied ye are your 2 children ok around dogs, she actually didnt know how to reply.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

haeveymolly said:


> I once offended a mother when her 2 kids wanted to stroke my 2 dogs, she said are you dogs ok with children, i replied ye are your 2 children ok around dogs, she actually didnt know how to reply.


That's great. I am always more concerned that the kids will hurt my dogs than the other way around.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Iheartcats said:


> I never said I'd leave my kids in the buggy outside a shop.
> 
> Its all the 24 hour news on our tv screens that seem to scaremonger even the most intelligent people.
> 
> How many kids to you know personally that have gone missing?


Me personally? I know a couple of young people who've been murdered - people I knew when I was at school - and others in school with my daughter

*IMHO one is ONE TOO MANY *

Unless people have been walking around with their eyes shut and their ears blocked off - even if we don't know someone personally, every single one of us knows of instances where children have been murdered - some by people they know - others by complete strangers.

There is a difference between leaving a child or dog in a "in view" car which is locked and alarmed and leaving the same child or dog outside a shop in a pushchair / on a lead respectively.

I've noticed a lot of dogs being left outside shops recently - for some reason it' something that certainly seems to be on the increase again.

There is a fine line between bringing a child up safely and molly coddling it - and sometimes it can be hard to getting the balance right.

But the absolute worst thing anyone can think is "it will never happen to me" -
it can happen to anyone 

My dad used to be the local crime prevention officer when I was young - I did a series of ads with him of how children can keep themselves safe, and telling them not to go off with people in a car - whether they know them or not.

Anyone who believes they are immune to the risks facing us in our society - whether it be with respect to themselves, their children, their grandchildren, or their pets can lead to irresponsible actions - it doesn't matter whether you live in a huge metropolitan city or a sleepy backwater village with one shop and a daily bus.

Offences against children haven't increased but the internet and 24 hour news could make us be forgiven for thinking it has - nevertheless - I don't think it serves anyone well to think they are immune by virtue of where they live

Just as technology has advanced (internet / digital TV and 24 hour news channels) - so has car ownership advanced - so the days when bad people couldn't get to remote places are also gone - and where better to snatch a child or a dog? in a busy shopping centre or a quiet country road with no-one around?

They are both as vulnerable as each other - that's not scaremongering, that's fact


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

chichi said:


> Can I ask.....would you let your child...at Primary School age..... cross a busy road?


When I was in primary school, I walked two miles to a friend's house for my lift to school every day (the school was in a separate area). This entailed crossing two main roads and several minor roads. I wouldn't let a young child do this, but any kid aged 9+ should really have been taught how to cross a road safely - if anything, I was probably extra vigilant then, as I had the mantra drummed into me on a daily basis "LOOK BOTH WAYS AND LOOK AGAIN". I'm probably _more_ careless now, at 30.

I'm all for responsible parenting, but it seems a sad state of affairs that stuff which wouldn't even have raised an eyebrow 20 years ago is now vilified as irresponsibility. If you apply 'risk assessment' to every aspect of your life, you'd never leave the house again - I don't think it's entirely realistic to base all your decisions on worst case scenarios.

Securing dogs outside shops also seems to be fairly par for the course around here. If Buttons didn't howl like he was being tortured, and if he wasn't an obvious target for 'friendly' children, I'd probably do it myself if it was literally a case of whipping in and out - as is, I usually ask at the shop door if they mind bringing something out to me.


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## WelshOneEmma (Apr 11, 2009)

Wobbles said:


> That works the other way too, those that specifically don't want a screaming sprog of their own shouldn't have to put up with other people's. I love my dog, but I don't let her bark and leap around like a mental case around others because not everyone likes that. In fact not everyone likes dogs full stop. I might find her yapping that she can't reach her ball adorable and clever but to people listening it might drive them up the wall. But if they told me to shut her up I wouldn't tell them to do one, because their in the right and I'm in the wrong. She should not be barking like that, if she wasn't people wouldn't be complaining. Same with kids, if someone complains about them misbehaving, its you and them that's in the wrong, not the person who just wants to enjoy their dinner in peace.


If you read the bit you highlighted you'll see I said that! I said some should be more understanding of kids and those with kids need to be more understanding of those without.

As for your comment about leaving a dog tied up outside? NEVER. I would never forgive myself if something happened to her because of my laziness. I remember watching something years ago where an old guy lost his dog because a friend was walking his dog and went for a pint and left the dog tied up outside. Someone then untied the dog and stole the lead, and the dog ran into the road. Wasnt killed outright so the old guy had to go in and have it put down. Plus with the rise in dogfights i wouldnt want her to be subjected to that either.



newfiesmum said:


> Well, I don't like children much, but I would never complain about a crying baby, because there is not a lot you can do about that is there? But kids running around and screaming in a restaurant, now that is something that is not necessary.
> 
> When we were in Florida we were waiting for the whale and dolphin show to begin when this bloke came and sat in front of us and proceeded to put his daughter on his shoulders to watch, whereupon nobody in our row to see. He was not pleased when I complained. Now that is just downright bloody selfish and considering those seats are in tiers so that everyone can see, completely unnecessary.
> 
> Or you get the types of planes whose brats sit behind kicking your seat and they do nothing about it, nor do they like it when you complain. You have to be reasonable and think whether something can be remedied, like the brats kicking the seats, or whether it can't, like the crying baby.


I think you were perfectly within your rights to complain. As i said earlier, we all need to be understanding of others and think how what we do affects them and if its detrimental we shouldn't do it. People are far too self centred these days.

I have no time for someone like you mention above who doesnt discipline their little darlings, it wont help the kids in the long run. If a child is screaming down the house in a restaurant, you take them outside to calm them down.

We went out for a meal with my parents and sister and her kids last week. The 3 year old was overtired and playing up. On the way to the restaurant he was told "play up and you cant have your captain america outfit for a week", and he was as good as gold.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> That's great. I am always more concerned that the kids will hurt my dogs than the other way around.


so am i, we take our away a lot with the caravan, the dogs love it but weve come across some really disrespectful children where dogs are concerned.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Tamsin W said:


> When I was in primary school, I walked two miles to a friend's house for my lift to school every day (the school was in a separate area). This entailed crossing two main roads and several minor roads. I wouldn't let a young child do this, but any kid aged 9+ should really have been taught how to cross a road safely - if anything, I was probably extra vigilant then, as I had the mantra drummed into me on a daily basis "LOOK BOTH WAYS AND LOOK AGAIN". I'm probably _more_ careless now, at 30.
> 
> I'm all for responsible parenting, but it seems a sad state of affairs that stuff which wouldn't even have raised an eyebrow 20 years ago is now vilified as irresponsibility. If you apply 'risk assessment' to every aspect of your life, you'd never leave the house again - I don't think it's entirely realistic to base all your decisions on worst case scenarios.
> 
> Securing dogs outside shops also seems to be fairly par for the course around here. If Buttons didn't howl like he was being tortured, and if he wasn't an obvious target for 'friendly' children, I'd probably do it myself if it was literally a case of whipping in and out - as is, I usually ask at the shop door if they mind bringing something out to me.


To me....assessing situations is a natural thing. I dont sit pondering the pros and cons.

I do think it irresponsible for parents to leave children of pre school age and even older without constant supervision. I also think letting primary school age kids cross busy roads is too dangerous to contemplate. A child can look left and right a dozen times but if you have some idiot speeding or somebody under the influence of drink or drugs...theres no telling what could happen. My Brother was run down on a zebra crossing...the driver overtook a car that had stopped for my Brother to cross. He was done for dangerous driving. My Brother lives with the repercussions of a shattered leg some 40 years later!

I would rather be cautious and know my kids are safe. If we went out in the evenings the kids either came with us or we got one of our Mums to baby sit. Leaving them alone wasnt an option. We have always taken our kids to parks....zoos....forest walks....met up with friends and family...had kids over to play...sleep...so they havent missed out on anything. Do I think I have been overly cautious at times.....probably. Would I be different if I could parent young kids again....not a chance.

Too many people have the "it wont happen to me or mine" attitude. I could safely say.... it WONT happen to mine (abduction...getting run over on a busy road) because I ensured my kids safety.


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## Tamsin W (Sep 18, 2012)

chichi said:


> Too many people have the "it wont happen to me or mine" attitude. I could safely say.... it WONT happen to mine (abduction...getting run over on a busy road) because I ensured my kids safety.


I don't really follow this logic to be honest. When you're talking about drunk / irresponsible drivers, it doesn't really make a difference whether a child is (safely) crossing the road alone, or whether you're escorting them - the outcome is likely to be the same in either case. You being there doesn't magically give a drunk driver a faster response time and longer braking distance.

The only way to stop your child being run over, full stop, is to prevent them from crossing the road altogether, regardless of supervision. And that's clearly insensible.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Tamsin W said:


> I don't really follow this logic to be honest. When you're talking about drunk / irresponsible drivers, it doesn't really make a difference whether a child is (safely) crossing the road alone, or whether you're escorting them - the outcome is likely to be the same in either case. You being there doesn't magically give a drunk driver a faster response time and longer braking distance.
> 
> The only way to stop your child being run over, full stop, is to prevent them from crossing the road altogether, regardless of supervision. And that's clearly insensible.


I would imagine an adult would see danger coming in many instances...more so than a 6..7..8 year old child...unless the parent had issues themselves. Commonsense and judgement isnt something we are born with...more something that progresses as we make our way in life. Experience is key in most walks of life. I dont think your average 6 year old can assess road danger accurately..ie mentally note that a car is speeding from way down the road... note a car swerving etc.

Of course there can be freak accidents where cars go out of control and kill..hurt..multiple people but you minimise risks as much as possible..such as having a supervising adult whilst a child is too young to make informed and sensible decisions where their life could be in danger.

Tbh..I come from a massive family..we all have multiple kids..live in an area where children are a plenty...yet I could count on one hand the amount of very young children Ive seen or heard of crossing a busy road alone. One of those few were knocked down by a car in my road.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

I wasn't allowed to cross the dual carriageway near our home till I was over 18! Lol.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

jenniferx said:


> I wasn't allowed to cross the dual carriageway near our home till I was over 18! Lol.


That could be my DD writing that.....


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

xbaileyboox said:


> I would NEVER leave my kids alone. I feel being in the garden while there in bed
> 
> 
> How would it explain the sniffer dogs found blood and her body smell in there hire car?
> ...


I really don't see how, with the press following their every move.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> I really don't see how, with the press following their every move.


Totally agree. Thats why I have never understood people thinking the Parents were involved in the disappearance (other than leaving the children unsupervised in the first place). With all the media attention and the Police on their backs...I cannot imagine they could have passed wind in privacy...let alone dispose of their child's body


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

There is a huge difference between letting your children have a degree if independence and become streetwise as they grow older ie crossing roads,leaving alone at home etc and blatant neglect! Maddy was two/three,the twins were not even one.....how could any of them hav made any decisions if they had awoken due to illness or something happening in the hotel? The answer is they couldnt ...lets not forget maddy had even said to her mummy why did u leave me alone!?.....what if the twins had woken up and ben sick one night? How wud poor maddy hav dealt with that? Irresponsible behaviour! Which no excuses can hide!!!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> There is a huge difference between letting your children have a degree if independence and become streetwise as they grow older ie crossing roads,leaving alone at home etc and blatant neglect! Maddy was two/three,the twins were not even one.....how could any of them hav made any decisions if they had awoken due to illness or something happening in the hotel? The answer is they couldnt ...lets not forget maddy had even said to her mummy why did u leave me alone!?.....what if the twins had woken up and ben sick one night? How wud poor maddy hav dealt with that? Irresponsible behaviour! Which no excuses can hide!!!


I agree...its only on PF that I have ever heard anyone even contemplating that the McCanns were not massively in the wrong for leaving those children...I am still shocked that Social Services havent checked them out (suppose they could have but would not be something that the press would necessarily know or the McCanns admit to).

Actually...I have been shocked about a few comments on this thread with regards what people find acceptable regarding responsible parenting.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

So have i! ..... i also fail to see the similarities in tying your dog up with leaving child in car very strange! I personally would never leave a child in the car ..or outside in a pushchair facts are we dont live in pleasantville...i was born in the seventies and my mum never ever did that!


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> So have i! ..... i also fail to see the similarities in tying your dog up with leaving child in car very strange! I personally would never leave a child in the car ..or outside in a pushchair facts are we dont live in pleasantville...i was born in the seventies and my mum never ever did that!


For someone to compare a child and a dog in the first place is totally bizarre!

They didnt have the social round because they are dr's pure and simple.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I agree HB! Outrageous  someone living on a council estate wud hav been torn to pieces by ss....


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## harley bear (Feb 20, 2010)

suzy93074 said:


> I agree HB! Outrageous  someone living on a council estate wud hav been torn to pieces by ss....


Just shows how 'educated' people can have no common sense what so ever!

That also applies to every parent who thinks what they did was acceptable.


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

suzy93074 said:


> So have i! ..... i also fail to see the similarities in tying your dog up with leaving child in car very strange! I personally would never leave a child in the car ..or outside in a pushchair facts are we dont live in pleasantville...i was born in the seventies and my mum never ever did that!


Absolutely...I was born in the 60s and was never left alone as a child.

My Mum was born in the 30s and though kids did play out more then...it was considered a "safer" world back then apparently...there is no way my old Nan would have left 3 young children alone to care for themselves. I think the McCanns live in cloud cuckoo if they think leaving those kids alone was anywhere near acceptable or responsible! Having a listen at the door periodically in no way makes it any more acceptable to me. That would only tell them if a child was crying...not that their child is in danger...abducted or worse. Silly people!


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

harley bear said:


> *For someone to compare a child and a dog in the first place is totally bizarre! *
> 
> They didnt have the social round because they are dr's pure and simple.


Sorry off topic

I would put my dog over anyone's child.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

jenniferx said:


> I wasn't allowed to cross the dual carriageway near our home till I was over 18! Lol.


I was always told to go play with the traffic.:cryin::cryin::cryin:


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## lisa0307 (Aug 25, 2009)

Something definitely doesn't add up with this case....never understood why the McCanns have always refused to take part in a Reconstruction 
...I know if it were my child I would do whatever was needed...

LINK: Madeleine McCann Stephen Birch, corpse found -(Government Cover-up) YouTube

LINK: McCanns In Trial! - YouTube

LINK: Trial for the McCanns

LINK: http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...-a-trial-for-child-madeleine-mccann-s-parents


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

You have to ask why, if they had any input in the disappearance of Madeline, are they still high profile (and have been since day one)? a guilty person would have made the police statements, done a TV interview and faded away hoping it would be forgotten, id hope their financial details, phone records and travel arrangements on and around the date of Madeline going missing were gone over with a fine toothcomb


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

I hope one day the mystery surrounding her disappearance gets solved one and for all.


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## smudgiesmummy (Nov 21, 2009)

they seem to have new leads , some been arrested ( last week) heard nothing on the news since though so who knows where they are up to with it now .. lets all hope something comes out of this, this time one way or the other


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Iheartcats said:


> Years ago when my son was 13 months old we left him in his cot asleep while we sat by the pool restaurant but we locked him in and the only way anyone could get in or out apart from windows was through the front door and we could see it from where we were sitting.
> 
> It was no different then us sitting in the garden with him upstairs in bed.
> 
> I've done the exact same thing as the McCanns and so have alot of other parents.


Well, I haven't, and I bet most other parents haven't either. I suppose that if you could see the only entrance, then that wasn't so bad, but we would have been worried that my children woke up and were frightened, or were sick during the night, or woke up and put something in their mouths and choked and we were too far away to hear them - we have never left them unattended when they were small.

I think that they drugged her and she died - perhaps the drug made her sick and she vomited and choked, perhaps they gave her too much - I don't know, but I think she died as a result of their direct action, and they and their friends covered it up. I can't understand how they can be so blase about it - smiling, not joining in the search etc. I think their 'determination' to find her is a smokescreen. That is my opinion.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

When my sister had her baby she lived in a big house converted into flats and she used to go the flat opposite for for dinner, bbq's etc taking the baby listener device with her.

What they did was no different than having a bbq in the garden and checking on the children periodically. Loads of people leave their front doors open and there is nothing stopping some weirdo entering while the owners backs are turned like that man who abducted the 6 year old from the bath and the mother was in the very next room!


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Iheartcats said:


> I agree with this totally!! Even when my daughter was a baby I'd leave her in her car seat while I nipped into my son's school to collect him. * At the petrol station she'd be in the car seat while I paid for the petrol.*
> 
> It was just alot of hassle to keep picking her up out of the carseat willy nilly especially if she was asleep.
> 
> ...


What if another car had gone into the back of yours? No - can't agree with this. Better they're woken up than carved up.


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## Iheartcats (Aug 25, 2011)

Seriously, I think you are being very neurotic. You can't watch children 24/7. You'd go mad! What is stopping a small kid putting something into their mouths while you nipped to the loo or do you take them with you to do that too or take a shower. cook dinner, hang washing out etc etc. Its just totally impractical to have a kid joined to your hip.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I think having a BBQ in your own back garden whilst the baby is in bed is way 
different to what they did. 


Never liked these intercom child minder things hotels offer either , so you can go and have a drink in the bar , whilst baby sleeps in your hotel room  Do people actually use these :confused1:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> When we bought our first house back in 1969 or 70, it was in a little village and, as villages were, the vicar came around to welcome us to the community. Very nice, we thought, but then he invited us to his Sunday morning service with the assurance that there would be no children there. There was, apparently a creche that parents had to leave them in to attend the service.
> 
> *We had no kids at the time, but I do remember saying I would not be attending any church service which did not allow childre*n.


Good for you! It really pee's me off when children aren't made welcome in church, but then everyone complains that you can't get young people across the doors - well, what do you expect if you spend the first ten years of their lives telling them they're not wanted!


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

If it ever transpires that one or both of the parents had anything to do with the events in Portugal Id not like to be in their shoes...

If they DID, they must be pretty cocky to stay so high profile, or very sure they are safe.....


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## Pointermum (Jul 2, 2010)

Pointermum said:


> I think a few of you need to go and measure 120m it would take you over a minute to walk at a fair pace, a minute is a long time when you measure it ! Hardly compared to the end of most peoples gardens .


To quote myself ^^^^^ hardly the same as being in the garden  ut:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

lostbear said:


> What if another car had gone into the back of yours? No - can't agree with this. Better they're woken up than carved up.


Or the car had been highjacked even!
And I believe that did happen once.

Certainly heard of a caravan being stolen whilst the families mother/mother in law was in it having a lay down. (unless it was a joke)


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Pointermum said:


> To quote myself ^^^^^ hardly the same as being in the garden  ut:


Exactly!
And though some may argue the apartment was in 'view' of the Mccanns, 100% of that evening??? WELL obviously it wasn't and even if 'some' claim it could have been, please don't make me laff, because no way would those parents have there eyes trained on the place the entire evening!

And besides, even if in eyeshot it most certainly was NOT in ear shot, and there is a whole host of things that could have gone unheard! a child choking, a child falling???? Now there's a thought

End of the day!
A child is missing because of the parents selfishness! end of.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Iheartcats said:


> Seriously, I think you are being very neurotic. You can't watch children 24/7. You'd go mad! *What is stopping a small kid putting something into their mouths while you nipped to the loo* or do you take them with you to do that too or take a shower. cook dinner, hang washing out etc etc. Its just totally impractical to have a kid joined to your hip.


Actually when mine were at that toddling stage, they usually did come into the loo with me, except when they were asleep. But even if you do leave your children while you go to the toilet - surely you put them in a safe place eg playpen, ensure that there is nothing that they can choke or hurt themselves on and that the house doors are locked (which I do anyway) and that they are as safe as you can make them. And there is a big difference between going for a pee (which you need to do - 5 mins) and going out for a meal and a bevy (which you don't - all evening and into the night).

It's not a matter of having your kid glued to your hip - it's a matter of ensuring that you have done everything that you can to keep them safe. Yes, there are times when you cannot have them with you for safety reasons eg when you are preparing a meal - that doesn't mean that you leave them with a fork and an unguarded electric socket! You make sure they are safe.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> If it ever transpires that one or both of the parents had anything to do with the events in Portugal Id not like to be in their shoes...
> 
> *If they DID, they must be pretty cocky to stay so high profile, or very sure they are safe..*...


The best place to hide is in plain sight. How many people think as you do - that if they were guilty there's no way they would be so public? Is that the only (or main) reason you think they haven't done anything?


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## Kyria (Oct 29, 2011)

Ive read somewhere he is a mason and you know they look after their own ..

I deffinately think they were involved in her disapperance.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

How anyone has managed to keep a secret like this for so long is unbelievable .this whole thing is crazy.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

None of us know do we. Yes was irresponsible to leave them alone but how awful to read people accusing them of all sorts if they had nothing to do with it bar leaving them alone.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> None of us know do we. Yes was irresponsible to leave them alone but how awful to read people accusing them of all sorts if they had nothing to do with it bar leaving them alone.


but leaving them alone is a reason! HAD they not have been left alone we would not be discussing this now!

And cant help thinking there would have been a whole different outlook on this had the parents had been a couple of druggies who where high as a kite had 'their' child gone missing!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

I don't think the parents know what happened to her its just my gut feeling.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

Iheartcats said:


> Years ago when my son was 13 months old we left him in his cot asleep while we sat by the pool restaurant but we locked him in and the only way anyone could get in or out apart from windows was through the front door and we could see it from where we were sitting.
> 
> It was no different then us sitting in the garden with him upstairs in bed.
> 
> I've done the exact same thing as the McCanns and so have alot of other parents.


My understanding was that the McCanns chose to go to a restaurant out of view of their hotel (not in the hotel grounds).

I also disagree that sitting round a pool in the hotel grounds with a child in their room is the same as sitting in your own back garden.

In your garden you are aware of who is who and a stranger would be noticed. No doubt external doors that are not in view would be locked. Anyone attempting to break in you would hear.

Outside a hotel many people are coming and going you have no idea who belongs to the hotel and who is a stranger. Even a person staying at the hotel could be a potential risk.

Personally I haven't done either.

NB One valid point that has been missed, "the hotel had a babysitting/child watch service" if the McCanns had used this service then imo they would have taken all necessary measured possible to ensure the safety of their children.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

sskmick said:


> My understanding was that the McCanns chose to go to a restaurant out of view of their hotel (not in the hotel grounds).
> 
> I also disagree that sitting round a pool in the hotel grounds with a child in their room is the same as sitting in your own back garden.
> 
> ...


Too right! Our children are the most precious things any of us will ever have, and yet these wealthy people were too tight to pay a tenner for an evening's babysitting.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

lostbear said:


> Too right! Our children are the most precious things any of us will ever have, and yet these wealthy people were too tight to pay a tenner for an evening's babysitting.


and far to educated (and up their own rears) to think they did anything wrong, i think they still do not accept THEY were at fault


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> and far to educated (and up their own rears) to think they did anything wrong, i think they still do not accept THEY were at fault


Could not agree more with that statement. Imagine the reaction if it had been a single mother or a pair of travellers? I think that is what appals me more than anything really - the fact that because they are doctors, people are more accepting of what happened.

Matthew Eapen's parents were both doctors as well, which is why nobody looked to see if perhaps it was their neglect that killed him.


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## CharleyRogan (Feb 20, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I had an interesting conversation with someone the other day and their theory on her disappearance is her parents.
> 
> They think she was drugged when they went out and they got rid of her body. A guy who had a daughter the same age said his kid would be really panicked if they left him alone. I am not a parent so can't comment.
> 
> ...


I think she was dead from the off! I don't understand why they where left unattended. Would you leave your kids of 1 and 3 in the house when you went shopping or out to a friends? Just because they are on holiday they get away with not being punished for leaving children unattended.

I do think they have something to do with it but I am not sure how. I think they drugged them so they would remain asleep, but maybe Maddy OD'd by mistake. Why would you take 1 child?

If she was taken, the news will have killed her, if she was for sale, how could you sell her if everyone in the world is looking for her? Easier to get rid of her.


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## willa (Jan 16, 2010)

CharleyRogan said:


> I think she was dead from the off! I don't understand why they where left unattended. Would you leave your kids of 1 and 3 in the house when you went shopping or out to a friends? Just because they are on holiday they get away with not being punished for leaving children unattended.
> 
> I do think they have something to do with it but I am not sure how. I think they drugged them so they would remain asleep, but maybe Maddy OD'd by mistake. Why would you take 1 child?
> 
> If she was taken, the news will have killed her, if she was for sale, how could you sell her if everyone in the world is looking for her? Easier to get rid of her.


But people only think they were involved coz they are doctors, if they weren't doctors, people ( police) wouldn't have spent so much time wasted on blaming them and not looking properly for her.

I just think still blaming the parents is pointless, a ( their) little girl is missing, surely that is what is important. Couldn't give a toss whether or not they were involved as long as she was found. I can think of sick reasons why a possible abductor only took Madeleine..................

*Before anyone gets stressy with me, it's just my opinion.* *This post is not aimed at anyone !*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Knowing how Mediterraneans are about children, I have always wondered if she went looking for her parents, got lost, and someone took her as their own. When we have been to Mediterranean countries with the children, the people are so affectionate with them, picking them up and asking about them. It would never surprise me to find that someone thought: if the parents don't want to look after her, then I will.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Knowing how Mediterraneans are about children, I have always wondered if she went looking for her parents, got lost, and someone took her as their own. When we have been to Mediterranean countries with the children, the people are so affectionate with them, picking them up and asking about them. It would never surprise me to find that someone thought: if the parents don't want to look after her, then I will.


But they would have seen years of news footage.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Waterlily said:


> But they would have seen years of news footage.


I am not saying they don't know she is missing, just that they decided to hang on to her. Perhaps they couldn't have children of their own and a pretty little blonde girl in Portugal would have been very popular. I know when we went to Greece when my daughter was three, the locals and cleaners kept picking her up and cuddling her. She got well peed off!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

Sadly I dont think she is alive. I think she was taken. I still am shocked by those that think the parents killed her. Though certainly if they hadnt behaved so selfishly and irresponsibly...she would still be with her family today. Very sad that a little girl may have suffered at the hands of some evil person/s...all for the sake of the Parents have a child free evening. Poor little girl


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Could not agree more with that statement. Imagine the reaction if it had been a single mother or a pair of travellers? I think that is what appals me more than anything really - the fact that because they are doctors, people are more accepting of what happened.
> 
> Matthew Eapen's parents were both doctors as well, which is why nobody looked to see if perhaps it was their neglect that killed him.


Look at the reaction Shannon Matthew's parents got, before it came out they had faked it of course, very different because they were council estate chavs compared to middle class doctors :frown2:

I don't know if they had something to do with it but either way it is their fault. You do not leave such small children alone while you go out with friends and especially not in a foreign country. I hope the twins are ok when they're older and realise that it could easily have been them as well.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Iheartcats said:


> I don't think the parents had anything to do with it otherwise why take turns with their friends to keep checking on the kids at regular intervals??
> 
> The mistake they made was not locking the door before they went out.
> 
> ...


No the mistake they made was leaving a child alone to go out.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Even now my daughter is eleven , I wold not leave her alone in a hotel room so I could go and enjoy myself .
If they didn't do it , they must be guilt ridden, you would think ?


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

paddyjulie said:


> Even now my daughter is eleven , I wold not leave her alone in a hotel room so I could go and enjoy myself .
> If they didn't do it , they must be guilt ridden, you would think ?


You would have thought so - but they've never struck me as guilt-ridden. Stressed and anxious, yes, but not guilt-ridden. In fact, I'm sure they have said that they don't blame themselves because it could have happened to anyone, or words to that effect.

I"m like you - never leave my young kids, and certainly not babies, alone. Yes it could happen to anyone - anyone who went out and didn't bother about the safety of their bairns.


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> Not that many years ago, it was quite usual for mothers to leave their babies in the their prams outside the front door whilst they went about their daily chores in the house. Prams, with baby inside, would often be left outside the local shops whilst the mother went in to do her shopping. As a child, I was left alone in the car regularly whilst my mum did whatever she was doing. Of an evening time, she would - on occasion - leave me in my bed whilst she popped off to see a neighbour either across the landing or downstairs. Sometimes she would be away for up to half an hour. In the 80's, when we went to Pontins on holiday, the baby-sitting service there only walked past the chalets every haf an hour. No different from what the McCanns & their friends were doing.
> 
> The point of this is that for a very long time people had more trust in the world and were not so 'smothering' (sorry, can't find a better word at the moment) with their children. The McCanns are of a similar age to myself so they most likely grew up in the same era of social circumstances. We tend to do as our parents did, in many ways, so it probably never even crossed their mind that they would be the unlucky ones and have this happen to them.
> 
> I do not blame Kate & Gerry for what has happened. I think the weight of the blame & guilt they lay upon themselves will be far greater than anything I, or anyone else who feels so righteous, can throw at them.


Kate McCann is 3 years younger than myself and I certainly didn't grow up with that attitude, yes we had more freedom as we grew up to play in the streets and fields than many of todays children but my mother certainly didn't leave me unsupervised in bed at aged 4.

My parents were the generation who knew about the moors murders, there was child abuse then and child disappearances. Children could have accidents in those days one of the boys I knew fell down a sand quarry and suffocated to death aged 12.

I certainly remember the disappearance of Genette Tate, Kate McCann would have been 10/11 when that high profile case hit the news.

Taking care of your children knowing where they are and taking adequate precautions to protect them isn't smothering its loving. I have always known where my son was, who he was with and never left him alone. He is now 20 and a bright independent young man.

One thing I agree with you on, if they are innocent of any involvement their suffering must be far worse than anything you or I can imagine.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

My question is to anyone going on holiday abroad
WHAT would YOU do if the fridge in the apartment you had hired broke down?


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

MoggyBaby said:


> But wasn't it - very bluntly - pointed out near the start of this thread that the majority of missing or abused children happens at the hands of someone they know......????
> 
> The child left alone in the car, or outside the shop in the buggy, may actually be safer than they would be at home if the above is true.


Interesting point there with regard to the McCann's?


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Colliebarmy said:


> and far to educated (and up their own rears) to think they did anything wrong, i think they still do not accept THEY were at fault


I don't think their education has anything to do with the mistake they made. Other than it should have given them more insight into the risks of leaving a child alone. Perhaps they grew complacent because they were used to wandering away from children in side wards leaving them alone, forgetting that there was a team of nurses and anxious parents waiting by the door to rush in when they had gone?

I do however agree that initially and since the media, police and politicians have mostly discriminated positively toward them because of their education.

However a certain portion of the public have negatively discriminated against them because of their education.

In fairness to them I wouldn't expect them to reflect in the media on if they were wrong or not. Their focus has always been on moving forward to find Madeline rather than to move the focus backward to the abduction.

Whether this is because they are moving the focus away from their own guilty involvement or because they are totally focussed on finding their daughter I don't know. I wonder if we will ever know?

I do know Madeline McCann seems to have become big business and also a matter for politicians to use to win favour. If this helps find her then all well and good.

Perhaps I'm too cynical?


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

willa said:


> But people only think they were involved coz they are doctors, if they weren't doctors, people ( police) wouldn't have spent so much time wasted on blaming them and not looking properly for her.
> 
> I just think still blaming the parents is pointless, a ( their) little girl is missing, surely that is what is important. Couldn't give a toss whether or not they were involved as long as she was found. I can think of sick reasons why a possible abductor only took Madeleine..................
> 
> *Before anyone gets stressy with me, it's just my opinion.* *This post is not aimed at anyone !*


The reason the police look to family members first is because in most cases it is a family member or a friend of the family.

However in my personal opinion I actually don't think they killed her, but I do think there is a possibility they were involved, nevertheless assuming they had absolutely nothing to do with her disappearance, they are still at fault for leaving those children unattended.

I do know some parents leave older children in hotels while they have a drink and to be fair we don't choose family package holidays anymore because the hotel becomes a playground, children running amok until silly o'clock, playing with and in the lifts, playing football in the dining area running up and down the stairs, slaming doors, screaming and shouting. The list is endless, the Hotel security guard tried his best to control the children. The police were involved and two families were escorted off the hotel premises, unfortunately the Hotel Security Guard was sacked. It was an all inclusive package and was the last family package holiday we went on.

I do agree in that there are a lot of irresponsible parents and for some reason they believe its okay for a hotel to be a playground irrespective of other paying guests holidays being ruined, because we are the ones having to jump in the swimming pools to pull their children out, send for help when their children become trapped in the lifts etc, etc. This is all aside from the fact that any one of those children could have been abducted.

I was once responsible for about half a dozen kids when we went to the Karate World Championships. I ensured all the children were in their rooms by 9:00 - 10:00pm depending on age it was late but children half expected some flexibility as it was all very exciting. Hubby was late back as the sections he was judging didn't finish until passed midnight. I went down to the main entrance to wait for the coach arriving at 1:00am, and there were four of my students sat at the Bar. By crikey did they get a rocket off me and they shot off to their rooms. I have never accepted responsibility for any of the younger students since, we always insist they are accompanied by a responsible adult. :incazzato:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

DT said:


> My question is to anyone going on holiday abroad
> WHAT would YOU do if the fridge in the apartment you had hired broke down?


I had not heard the story of the fridge before this thread, but the idea that you would take a hotel fridge to a tip, even in this country, is not feasible, not believable and you would have expected an educated couple to come up with a better story.

If it is true that this was their claim, then that makes them as guilty as sin as far as I can see.


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## Waterlily (Apr 18, 2010)

paddyjulie said:


> Even now my daughter is eleven , I wold not leave her alone in a hotel room so I could go and enjoy myself .
> If they didn't do it , they must be guilt ridden, you would think ?


yea I wouldnt be leaving my 13 yr old alone in a hotel here either let alone in a foreign nation.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

DT said:


> My question is to anyone going on holiday abroad
> WHAT would YOU do if the fridge in the apartment you had hired broke down?


Exactly! How is that not suspicious behaviour?


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

DT said:


> My question is to anyone going on holiday abroad
> WHAT would YOU do if the fridge in the apartment you had hired broke down?


wow re-wind I missed this post, is this related to the McCann's? If so, I missed this snippet of information.

I know the timing of their trips back to the apartment didn't work out right as there was a big gap from when they last saw her in bed to the time they checked again.


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