# Australian Labradoodles



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I met the most adorable dog today and the owner said it was an "Australian labradoodle" which he said was a mix of lab, poodle and water dog (of some kind. I forget what he said).

The dog was utterly gorgeous and although only a year old, was very calm and uber friendly.

I was sceptical when he told me what the dog was, as I've met people who claimed their dogs to be all sorts (including a "rare" Irish ridgeback. Poor guy had payed a fortune for it. Said he met the breeder off the ferry with the dog. It just looked like a cross breed to me) but I've done a quick google and there seems to be a few of these Australian labradoodles around, but I'm not sure if they are being cross bred or bred with each other- sorry I don't know the name of that)

Has anyone any knowledge of them?

Home


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Expensive mongrels.
And the originator of the Labradoodle now regrets it.

Can - worms - open - whooppeeeeeee! Unleash the worms!


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## LaceWing (Mar 18, 2014)

There are lots of them in the states. A while back, an Australian man bred Labrador Retrievers with Standard poodles to create a mix that could be a leader dog for the blind who have dog allergies. You can find his story on the net, I&#8217;m sure. Well, some of the dogs worked out well- poodle coat, intelligent, good seeing eye dogs. The others, not so much. In retrospect, he has stated that he wished he had never started. Although you do find lovely labradoodles, it is a mixed bag. They may or may not shed, they may or may not have good temperaments. If this gentleman bought one with a good temperament and calm disposition, good for him. It is still a mutt and if I wanted one I would simply go to the animal shelter.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Ha! Ha!

No, I don't want a discussion about designer dogs.mi just thought it was a very attractive dog with a nice temperament.

I think I found the breeder he mentioned when I googled. The website certainly doesn't sound at all like an irresponsible breeder. They even DNA test the dogs as well as a multitude of health tests.

They guy said they only bred this breed.

I *think* he also said the dog was neutered before he got it as the breeder insisted- but I may have picked him up wrong- possibly he meant he had to have her neutered.

Isn't this how new breeds happen- a mix of attributes from other dogs?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

LaceWing said:


> There are lots of them in the states. A while back, an Australian man bred Labrador Retrievers with Standard poodles to create a mix that could be a leader dog for the blind who have dog allergies. You can find his story on the net, Im sure. Well, some of the dogs worked out well- poodle coat, intelligent, good seeing eye dogs. The others, not so much. In retrospect, he has stated that he wished he had never started. Although you do find lovely labradoodles, it is a mixed bag. They may or may not shed, they may or may not have good temperaments. If this gentleman bought one with a good temperament and calm disposition, good for him. It is still a mutt and if I wanted one I would simply go to the animal shelter.


No. This isn't simply a labradoodle. It has something else I there too. I think Spanish water dog- certainly he said it was a water dog of some sort.

I know the history of labradoodles, but his was different. For a start the coat was not self coloured.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Isn't this how new breeds happen- a mix of attributes from other dogs?


Not nowadays.

In the distant past, originators of new dog breeds were usually incredibly wealthy, had unlimited resources, bred hundreds, only selected the healthiest and most able - and, because that's what they did at the time, had many put to sleep that didn't match up to the ideal.

That's not acceptable these days, so any "new breed" is going to have to jump through hundreds more hoops before being accepted.

Many of these new breeds such as Labradoodles and Cockerpoos are just first crosses. They could only be accepted as a new breed after many generations on from the first cross - but the majority of breeders of them are only interested in breeding that cross, and not taking it any further.

If most of these breeders prefer the first cross (Labrador x Poodle, Cocker x Poodle etc) then there is no possibility of a new breed. They will remain crosses.

(oooh look at dem wormies)


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I think the Australian Doodles often have 'something else' in them, so the guy you met was probably right. I also believe the Aussie Doodles are more uniform in their 'type' than some other straight up first crosses. But other than that I know nothing more....other than the fact they are ridiculously overpriced IMO. That particular line, or whatever you want to call it, always seem to command a higher price.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Yes, they are not crosses- from what I googled!


Each to their own. So long as they are bred for health and temperament as a priority, I have no objection to people breeding whatever they want. And of folks want to spend gazillions on them, then who am I to object?



I won't be buying one anyway.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

I had a little look into this - we had a patient registered as an "Australian native dog" and was coming in for vaccinations. We wondered what the hell was coming in, as google told us that an Australian native dog = dingo 

So we waited in anticipation, and in came a bundle of fluff. Didn't look like a dingo to me...so we asked...it was an "Australian Service Dog". Cue confused looks and the admission that it wasn't on our systems breed list, so she said its a labradoodle. 

Further googling revealed that "Australian service dogs" are from the original founders of the breed with completely unbroken lines. Apparently. 


Personally I hate the oodle-poo breeding fad that's going on at the moment. Some of the names of "breeds" I'm seeing at work on a daily basis are just scary - and people are paying more for a pup from essentially a BYB than they would do for a health tested puppy of one of the parent breeds. They get quite upset when their pup gets registered as a crossbreed.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Quite a lot of oodles are neutered before they are sold, so the owners cannot breed from them and of course so that the price of them remains high.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

As I understand it these lines are working towards standardizing etc but it's not just a straight labxpoodle cross there's other breeds in there as well. I see no issue as long as they're bred ethically


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> As I understand it these lines are working towards standardizing etc but it's not just a straight labxpoodle cross there's other breeds in there as well. I see no issue as long as they're bred ethically


I completely agree- and from what I have seen of breeders websites, they appear to be quite rigorous about health testing.

The fact there is more than just poodles and labs there will make the genetic mix more diverse, surely? Though I suppose it depends how closely they were originally bred.

That look like terry bears!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Ha! Ha!
> 
> No, I don't want a discussion about designer dogs.mi just thought it was a very attractive dog with a nice temperament.
> 
> ...


There are some very bad stories surrounding the breeders that started the labradoodles in Australia (not Wally Conran the Guide dog breeder). I can't remember names off hand, but remember a lot of rather unpleasant breeding practices were revealed! From memory, Spanish water dogs were added and another breed too, but can't remember.

Those breeding them now are very protective of them and generally insist on neutering at 6 weeks to ensure they are not bred from.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

from what ive read the extra dog/s were originally added so that a more uniform 'sheep' coat was almost guaranteed
because, obviously, thats what people wanted in an -oodle, and the more wavy/flattish coated pups just werent selling and ended up being euthanised, given away, dumped in rescues
and
the keeping of the 'sheepy' ones as breeding stock still didnt guarantee all 'sheepy' dogs and high prices

The addition of a Spanish or Portuguese water dogs would certainly virtually guarantee the 'locked in' sheepy gene for all pups

Hence i guess the distinction from the genuine original labradoodles and complete openness about the whys and wherefores 
and
the AUSTRALIAN labradoodles with its breeding secrecy [although im sure they keep acurate records etc] with the general public
as stated here from _the history of the breed_


> This means you cannot simply build an Australian Labradoodle by crossing a labrador and a poodle.......


Sorry, but, to me, still smacks of money led eugenics

on a lighter note, met a wonderful example of a goldendoodle [double d or not?] at the vets yesterday, huge at only 18 months, to the eye great bone structure and much steadier/calmer than any same age labradoodles ive met
came from health tested parents, was there for hip/elbow scoring as to whether or not he would join the gene pool


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Yes, I'm pretty sure the guy said she was already neutered before he brought her home. Not necessarily a practice I approve of, though I know it's fairly common in the US.

They certainly have a huge "cute" factor, but I prefer more workaday dogs-those bred to work, like collies and gundogs.

But each to their own- as I may have already said!

So long as there are good homes for the pups and the parents are healthy and of good temperament and well cared for, I don't care what is crossed with what.

Though a humerous name is is poor reason to breed two pedigree dogs IMO.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

Yes, I came across a couple at a dog show. The people told me what made the mix but I can't remember what the last bit was, maybe wheaten terrier.


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## ruwise (Aug 6, 2014)

I just googled them and found this site that shows what the parent breeds are.

http://www.australian-labradoodles.co.uk/about-us/about-labradoodles/


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Is the world of Labradoodles/Australian Labradoodles/Labradoodle Origin/Australian Cobberdog/etc as confusing as the world of the Northern Inuit/Utonagan/British Timber Dog/Saarloos/Czech Wolfdog/Anglo Wulfdog/Tamaskan/etc seems to be?

There seems to be no agreement, organisation, unity or anything between people in the 'breeds' & it must be nigh on impossible for the average person to sort the wheat from the (I imagine huge amount of) chaff to find an ethical breeder!

I found what (going from the website alone) appeared to be a better AL breeder in the UK, but then I saw where their bloodlines originated (a very notorious & unethical American breeder) from & changed my mind.....


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## ruwise (Aug 6, 2014)

Yes we looked at some doodle crosses when looking at what type of dog to get but I could not find an ethical breeder that I was happy with. They all seemed obsessed with colour and not health or temperament. I'm sure there are some good ones but they are much harder to find and I just didn't fancy playing the puppy lottery.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> from what ive read the extra dog/s were originally added so that a more uniform 'sheep' coat was almost guaranteed
> because, obviously, thats what people wanted in an -oodle, and the more wavy/flattish coated pups just werent selling and ended up being euthanised, given away, dumped in rescues
> and
> the keeping of the 'sheepy' ones as breeding stock still didnt guarantee all 'sheepy' dogs and high prices
> ...


All dog breeding is about eugenics 

And in the beginning it must have involved the rejection of progeny which displayed unwanted characteristics (not that I'm advocating that).

And, at the end of the day, it's usually always been about money and / or prestige.


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## Roobster2010 (Jan 17, 2011)

Hi,

To be honest I'm sick of all the designer dog breeding with silly names & even sillier prices. I'm a dog walker & have recently acquired a new recruit. He is a 'Minature Australian Labradoodle' He was neutered aged 9 weeks & cost £2000. He's as cute as a button & has a great temperarment but come on.........wtf


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> All dog breeding is about eugenics
> 
> And in the beginning it must have involved the rejection of progeny which displayed unwanted characteristics (not that I'm advocating that).
> 
> *And, at the end of the day, it's usually always been about money and / or prestige*.


Modern designer breeds, but not the old breeds. They were bred with a purpose and a specific job to do. The best breed for the job was used and then, over time, the addition of other breeds were added to make an even better working dog. Bearing in mind that in the past, dogs were considered 'types' more than actual breeds.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> All dog breeding is about eugenics
> 
> And in the beginning it must have involved the rejection of progeny which displayed unwanted characteristics (not that I'm advocating that).
> 
> And, at the end of the day, it's usually always been about money and / or prestige.


Or working ability 

Some still make that a top priority


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

Roobster2010 said:


> Hi,
> 
> To be honest I'm sick of all the designer dog breeding with silly names & even sillier prices. I'm a dog walker & have recently acquired a new recruit. He is a 'Minature Australian Labradoodle' He was neutered aged 9 weeks & cost £2000. He's as cute as a button & has a great temperarment but come on.........wtf


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## trudy (Oct 26, 2011)

Roobster2010 said:


> Hi,
> 
> To be honest I'm sick of all the designer dog breeding with silly names & even sillier prices. I'm a dog walker & have recently acquired a new recruit. He is a 'Minature Australian Labradoodle' He was neutered aged 9 weeks & cost £2000. He's as cute as a button & has a great temperarment but come on.........wtf


agree with you.I see lots of "new breeds" in practice which are just mixed breeds,usually without any health tests but expensive and representing the worst parts of both breeds.
crazy


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Roobster2010 said:


> Hi,
> 
> To be honest I'm sick of all the designer dog breeding with silly names & even sillier prices. I'm a dog walker & have recently acquired a new recruit. He is a 'Minature Australian Labradoodle' He was neutered aged 9 weeks & cost £2000. He's as cute as a button & has a great temperarment but come on.........wtf


I really don't see anything wrong with it.

They have been breeding for a certain "look" and seen to have achieved it.

So what? That's what dog breeding has been all about.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Modern designer breeds, but not the old breeds. They were bred with a purpose and a specific job to do. The best breed for the job was used and then, over time, the addition of other breeds were added to make an even better working dog. Bearing in mind that in the past, dogs were considered 'types' more than actual breeds.


It's a total myth that modern dog breeds were bred for a purpose. They weren't. They were bred for a look. They retrospectively attached "purposes" to the exaggerated features- some so fanciful I'm amazed anyone falls for it! The most ludicrous one I heard was that the folds in a bulldogs face was to channel the blood away!

As soon as we moved away from types and started breeding primarily for looks, closing the gene pool in the process, all the problems we see today emerged.

The only "breed" I know of, where the dogs are bred for working ability and health and cannot be registered without a clean bill of health, are ISDS collies.

Some "breeds" have been less spoiled than others.

Before anyone shouts "hypocrite!" At me, I have a KC registered dog and an ISDS registered dog. If a dog is bred for health and temperament, so long as looks come after this, I don't see what the problem is.

And if someone wants to spend £2000 on a pup, then that's their business, isn't it?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Old Shep said:


> It's a total myth that modern dog breeds were bred for a purpose. They weren't. They were bred for a look. They retrospectively attached "purposes" to the exaggerated features- some so fanciful I'm amazed anyone falls for it! The most ludicrous one I heard was that the folds in a bulldogs face was to channel the blood away!
> 
> As soon as we moved away from types and started breeding primarily for looks, closing the gene pool in the process, all the problems we see today emerged.
> 
> ...


Of course many were bred to work  

What would have been the point otherwise? Dog showing isn't that old you know and health testing is a very new phenomenon in the scheme of things.

What would the point of breeding a gundog that couldn't work or became ill?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> *It's a total myth that modern dog breeds were bred for a purpose. They weren't.* They were bred for a look. They retrospectively attached "purposes" to the exaggerated features- some so fanciful I'm amazed anyone falls for it! The most ludicrous one I heard was that the folds in a bulldogs face was to channel the blood away!
> 
> As soon as we moved away from types and started breeding primarily for looks, closing the gene pool in the process, all the problems we see today emerged.
> 
> ...


Really???? Perhaps you could tell my Labradors that will be working every weekend from next week! 

I think you listen to too much rubbish spouted by both sides and have jumped on the bandwagon rather than basing your opinions on actual fact.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> It's a total myth that modern dog breeds were bred for a purpose. They weren't. They were bred for a look. They retrospectively attached "purposes" to the exaggerated features- some so fanciful I'm amazed anyone falls for it! The most ludicrous one I heard was that the folds in a bulldogs face was to channel the blood away!
> 
> As soon as we moved away from types and started breeding primarily for looks, closing the gene pool in the process, all the problems we see today emerged.
> 
> ...


They have to have an eye test - if you were registering eyes they would indeed have a clean bill of health. However, there is a lot more to a dog than eyes so it's a long stretch to suggest that a clear eye test equals a clean bill of health!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Of course breeds were bred for a purpose, maybe you mean some of the exaggerations that have been bred into them that people claim have a purpose but the working dogs don't have? 

Irish setters can't be registered without genetic tests and the red and whites certainly are as much working as show dogs. 

The types developed for a reason, you want something that will run fast after a deer you breed for something that is built like a cheetah, you want a small dog to go down into holes you breed for a terrier or a dachshund. Just because some of those traits have been exaggerated doesn't mean they didn't have a purpose once.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Roobster2010 said:


> Hi,
> 
> To be honest I'm sick of all the designer dog breeding with silly names & even sillier prices. I'm a dog walker & have recently acquired a new recruit. He is a 'Minature Australian Labradoodle' He was neutered aged 9 weeks & cost £2000. He's as cute as a button & has a great temperarment but come on.........wtf


Yea that's a bit much to pay, but not if they got what they wanted from a good breeder... I don't agree with the early neutering, and I hope there were the relevant health tests done... I'm assuming the breeder was also aiming for temperament? Which they've apparently achieved- heck of a lot better than many of not most breeders- cross-breed and pedigree!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I really don't see anything wrong with it.
> 
> They have been breeding for a certain "look" and seen to have achieved it.
> 
> So what? That's what dog breeding has been all about.


So you don't see anything wrong with breeding for a 'certain look' as far as the Australian labradoodle is concerned, but claim that breeding for looks in breeds has caused problems   



> As soon as we moved away from types and started breeding primarily for looks, closing the gene pool in the process, all the problems we see today emerged.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> So you don't see anything wrong with breeding for a 'certain look' as far as the Australian labradoodle is concerned, but claim that breeding for looks in breeds has caused problems


I'm just saying here is no difference and it's hypocritical to be all indignant about these " new" breeds. All breeds were once new and these dogs don't appear to have silly exaggeration (although, personally, a dog which needs clipped would not appeal to me- I'm too lazy to be bothered with all that grooming)

As I've repeatedly said, I see no difference and I see no justification in lambasting people who choose to go down this route PROVIDING the dogs chosen for temperament and health with looks second to that. The websites I've looked at for this particular breed appear to be ethical.

However, are there too many dogs being bred anyway? That's another question, for another thread.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I'm just saying here is no difference and it's hypocritical to be all indignant about these " new" breeds. All breeds were once new and these dogs don't appear to have silly exaggeration (although, personally, a dog which needs clipped would not appeal to me- I'm too lazy to be bothered with all that grooming)
> 
> As I've repeatedly said, I see no difference and I see no justification in lambasting people who choose to go down this route PROVIDING the dogs chosen for temperament and health with looks second to that. The websites I've looked at for this particular breed appear to be ethical.
> 
> However, are there too many dogs being bred anyway? That's another question, for another thread.


I agree it is hypocritical, especially when you denigrate those modern breeders who breed for looks alone (there are fewer of those that you suppose) then you see nothing wrong for a type/crossbreed that is being bred purely for looks. 

You seem to have jumped on the bandwagon of a certain TV producer, who while raised valid points, showed it to the public in a sensationalist way that there was a lot of misunderstanding, which you seem to be under. Your understanding of who pure breeds came about is misguided at best.

PS - I wouldn't put too much store by a website. Having a website and putting whatever you want has enabled the poor to look good, and not just in breeding - it is the same in any area of life / business.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I agree it is hypocritical, especially when you denigrate those modern breeders who breed for looks alone (there are fewer of those that you suppose) then you see nothing wrong for a type/crossbreed that is being bred purely for looks.
> 
> You seem to have jumped on the bandwagon of a certain TV producer, who while raised valid points, showed it to the public in a sensationalist way that there was a lot of misunderstanding, which you seem to be under. Your understanding of who pure breeds came about is misguided at best.
> 
> PS - I wouldn't put too much store by a website. Having a website and putting whatever you want has enabled the poor to look good, and not just in breeding - it is the same in any area of life / business.


I absolutly agree that I have no real proof these dogs have been ethically bred- I was just meaning at, if the website was anything to go by, they appear to be.

I think in fact we may be talking at cross purposes and may actually agree on the important points. That being, temperament and health are more important than looks (with working ability, for those working dogs, being in there somewhere.)


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> To be honest I'm sick of all the designer dog breeding with silly names & even sillier prices. I'm a dog walker & have recently acquired a new recruit. He is a 'Minature Australian Labradoodle' He was neutered aged 9 weeks & cost £2000. He's as cute as a button & has a great temperarment but come on.........wtf
> agree with you.I see lots of "new breeds" in practice which are just mixed breeds,usually without any health tests but expensive and representing the worst parts of both breeds.
> crazy


Come on.

"He's as cute as a button & has a great temperament" well what's wrong with that? How the heck does it equal the worst part of both breeds?

All the poodle cross breeds that I see are great pets. The worst I can say about any one of them is that they can be bouncy/boisterous.

I dislike the concept of "Australian labradoodles" myself because I _never _ want to see the doods morph into a breed. Cursed gene puddles AGAIN!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Ozrex: can I ask why you say that? Why don't you want doodles "morphing" into a breed?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Ozrex: can I ask why you say that? Why don't you want doodles "morphing" into a breed?


They can't "morph" and that's the issue.

Nobody has any kind of "blueprint" as to how the "breed" should develop.

Most breeders just want to do the First Cross, and have no interest beyond that.

Some have said they would like the "breed" to be like the First Cross, but have no idea how to do it, nor how to stabilise it, to establish a "new breed".

Still others have their own ideals. They run the risk of changing the first-cross appearance, if they do so. When most people buying them WANT the first-cross Poodle x Lab appearance, temperament, shape, size, coat and character.

Given that these first-crosses are so variable in themselves... and also given that a percentage of buyers WANT the first-cross puppies... how the heck can they ever be moulded into a "new breed"?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> They can't "morph" and that's the issue.
> 
> Nobody has any kind of "blueprint" as to how the "breed" should develop.
> 
> ...


The Australian labradoodles aren't first crosses and include breeds other than labs and poodles. They've gone beyond crossing existing pedigrees and are now bred together. To me they seem to already be a breed.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

Just to take labradoodles not the other oodles..

There are a lot of labradors, no idea how many, but they're a numerous breed. Poodles are less common but doods are bred from standards and minatures mainly. So, the theoretical gene pool for a dood is 
labrador gene pool + poodle (two types) gene pool.

Parental selection is pretty random within those gene pools because the "outcome" is NOT determined by the need/desire to have the offspring match the current Crufts BoB and/or the expectations of other breed affectionados. Popular sires will probably not be over represented in doods because their services will be claimed by the show folk.
This gives the F1 dood two advantages
1. better chance of variation in the genes especially those controlling the immune system as these genes are in different proportions in the two different breeds and somewhat impoverished in poodles
2. recessive genes that cause disease will NOT be expressed except where they exist in both breeds and are carried by both parents. 

As soon as doods morph into a "breed" they will have some nut-job deciding that Doodle A is a magnificent example of the breed and other nutters will put Doodle A over their bitches (popular sire effect). Some crack-pot will decide that the F1s are not as "pure" or "typey" or "true to standard" as F12s and will breed the in-bred. 

The "genetically challenged public" will believe that F12s are "better" than the F1s and believe the advertising that goes with them and HEY HO we have a gene puddle; we have deleterious genes showing their recessive heads; we have impoverished and dysfuctional immune systems that can't even cope with routine immunisation; we have people screaming that out-crossing will "destroy" the breed. 

WORST OF ALL, poor old Ozrex will be lamenting the dood the way she laments the Cavalier King Charles.

Nah. Keep 'em cross-breeds. Keep 'em varied in appearance and enjoy the variety. I have a curly dood but I've always loved a shaggy dog and they're both cute doods. They're not as varied as the true mongrel; I knew I was getting a dood of roughly 10kg, with apricot curls. I knew she'd have cheek and charm. She's never disapointed me yet. She cost me $A1,000 and she's worth every cent to me, I'd pay it again in a heartbeat.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

ozrex said:


> Just to take labradoodles not the other oodles..
> 
> There are a lot of labradors, no idea how many, but they're a numerous breed. Poodles are less common but doods are bred from standards and minatures mainly. So, the theoretical gene pool for a dood is
> labrador gene pool + poodle (two types) gene pool.
> ...


Thanks for that. Makes perfect sense!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rona said:


> Of course many were bred to work
> 
> What would have been the point otherwise? Dog showing isn't that old you know and health testing is a very new phenomenon in the scheme of things.
> 
> What would the point of breeding a gundog that couldn't work or became ill?


The Shetland Sheepdog was turned from a small tough working dog into a small, elegant, very hairy and rather nervous show dog in a relatively short time. I love the breed but not sure it did them any favours.

I met a miniature Australian Labradoodle. Very pretty orange puppy, about 3 months old. Incredibly nervous, ridiculous for a pup of that age. Apparently it had cocker in it to keep the size down.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Blitz said:


> The Shetland Sheepdog was turned from a small tough working dog into a small, elegant, very hairy and rather nervous show dog in a relatively short time. I love the breed but not sure it did them any favours.
> 
> I met a miniature Australian Labradoodle. Very pretty orange puppy, about 3 months old. Incredibly nervous, ridiculous for a pup of that age. Apparently it had cocker in it to keep the size down.


Foundation stock had a mix of breeds ( as you would expect). It's not just someone producing F1s/F2s etc.

Home

To me, they are as much a "breed" as anything registered with the KC.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Blitz said:


> The Shetland Sheepdog was turned from a small tough working dog into a small, elegant, very hairy and rather nervous show dog in a relatively short time. I love the breed but not sure it did them any favours.
> 
> I met a miniature Australian Labradoodle. Very pretty orange puppy, about 3 months old. Incredibly nervous, ridiculous for a pup of that age. Apparently it had cocker in it to keep the size down.


Foundation stock had a mix of breeds ( as you would expect). It's not just someone producing F1s/F2s etc.

Home

To me, they are as much a "breed" as anything registered with the KC.
There is a breed standards and I believe nervous out is a fault.


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## ozrex (Aug 30, 2011)

> I met a miniature Australian Labradoodle. Very pretty orange puppy, about 3 months old. Incredibly nervous, ridiculous for a pup of that age. Apparently it had cocker in it to keep the size down.


Tess is an F1 cross between a miniature poodle and a lab. She's what's described as a miniature labradoodle here; she's about 9.6kg of orange curls so I'm not sure why anyone would need to add cocker spaniel to the mix but each to their own. She'e been described as many things but "nervous" has never EVER featured in the adjectives, maybe it was the cocker who was nervous...


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

What they are bred for is the coat as nobody really wants one that looks like a Labrador so they are limited, they come in a variety of colours which suggests they are not breeding for health as a top priority as they would have stuck to the 3 accepted colours.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Cay said:


> What they are bred for is the coat as nobody really wants one that looks like a Labrador so they are limited, they come in a variety of colours which suggests they are not breeding for health as a top priority as they would have stuck to the 3 accepted colours.


3 accepted colours? For labs you mean? So only black poodles should be used to keep the lab-y colours? Not sure why apricots, reds, silvers etc should be discussed because of colour...


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Cay said:


> What they are bred for is the coat as nobody really wants one that looks like a Labrador so they are limited, they come in a variety of colours which suggests they are not breeding for health as a top priority as they would have stuck to the 3 accepted colours.


absolutly not the case. they are available in a huge variety of colours and not all solid.

since it is a requirement of registration that dam and sire have certain health tests, they appear to be exceeding the KC in this respect


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Cay said:


> What they are bred for is the coat as nobody really wants one that looks like a Labrador so they are limited, they come in a variety of colours which suggests they are not breeding for health as a top priority as they would have stuck to the 3 accepted colours.


There are kc recognised breeds that can come in any colour under the sun borzois being a good example, so why is a variety of colours an issue. Poodles come in more colours than labs so why wouldn't there be more colour variety than just black/yellow/chocolate. What does colour matter, outside of the ones that cause problems?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

lol!
i feel as if I'm advocating for Australian labradoodles- please be assured that I'm not!

as for colour, I think colour is the stupidest* reason to breed a dog (well, possibly apart from a cute sounding name when you combine the breeds).

there was a fashion a while back for what were called 'merle' collies. A dangerous example of where humans desire for frivolous traits can seriously affect the heath of dogs.

*in some instances, colour is important. one example is flock guardian breeds, where the dog has to blend in with the flock he is guarding.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I agree just breeding for colour with no thought to health or temperment is wrong, but just excluding dogs based on colour if you're working on standardising a breed could do damage surely. You can breed colour out later but you want a wide foundation stock.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> there was a fashion a while back for what were called 'merle' collies. A dangerous example of where humans desire for frivolous traits can seriously affect the heath of dogs.


It's moved on since then!!! Now there are Merle Staffies, Merle Chihuahuas.... and even Merle Cockers and Poodles in the USA. 
The Merle Labradoodle and Cockapoo can't be very far off.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> It's moved on since then!!! Now there are Merle Staffies, Merle Chihuahuas.... and even Merle Cockers and Poodles in the USA.
> The Merle Labradoodle and Cockapoo can't be very far off.


that is so depressing


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Merle cockapoo 









Labradoodle supposedly from the australian lines









Because that's just what you need, merle genes becoming popular and ending up in the hands of people who just care about money. We even met a merle pom a few weeks ago they have to be coming from crossbreeding don't they?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> I agree just breeding for colour with no thought to health or temperment is wrong, but just excluding dogs based on colour if you're working on standardising a breed could do damage surely. You can breed colour out later but you want a wide foundation stock.


i mean colour should be way, way down the list of 'desirable traits', i can see no justification (other than in a few, rare instances in some flock guarding breeds) to see colour as relevant to breed_ for_


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Merle cockapoo
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i dont even find merle at all attractive!

we are all human and all probably have colour preferences in breeds we like (yellow or black labs, for instance)

i have had collies for many many years and much prefer traditional black and white. i wouldnt give houseroom to a 'broon' collie, let alone a merle one!

I also have a Brittany and prefer a coppery coat, or traditional orange and white-i'm not so keen on black and white ones.

but colour must come way down the list. the dog must be sound of temperament and health first and foremost.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> i dont even find merle at all attractive!
> 
> we are all human and all probably have colour preferences in breeds we like (yellow or black labs, for instance)
> 
> ...


I think the merle collies look nice and if I ever got one and there was a choice between breeders who were health testing/breeding for temperment etc I'd go for a merle. But the other factors should be a priority first definitely


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

MerlinsMum said:


> It's moved on since then!!! Now there are Merle Staffies, Merle Chihuahuas.... and even Merle Cockers and Poodles in the USA.
> The Merle Labradoodle and Cockapoo can't be very far off.


You forgot the merle Miniature Schnauzers!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> You forgot the merle Miniature Schnauzers!


I did...didn't I! :ciappa:


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> It's moved on since then!!! Now there are Merle Staffies, Merle Chihuahuas.... and even Merle Cockers and Poodles in the USA.
> *The Merle Labradoodle and Cockapoo can't be very far off.*


Rest assured they are already here!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> lol!
> i feel as if I'm advocating for Australian labradoodles- please be assured that I'm not!
> 
> as for colour, I think colour is the stupidest* reason to breed a dog (well, possibly apart from a cute sounding name when you combine the breeds).
> ...


Not sure what you are saying here. Merle border collies, rough collies and shetland sheepdogs are extremely common and have been around for longer than I have been in dogs. What is wrong with having colour preferences anyway.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Not sure what you are saying here. Merle border collies, rough collies and shetland sheepdogs are extremely common and have been around for longer than I have been in dogs. *What is wrong with having colour preferences anyway*.


Nothing unless the colour, or breeding for the colour, isn't causing any detrimental issues for the dogs- issues such as homozygous merles, colour dilution alopecia & issues of deafness in some high white dogs


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> Nothing unless the colour, or breeding for the colour, isn't causing any detrimental issues for the dogs- issues such as homozygous merles, colour dilution alopecia & issues of deafness in some high white dogs


:thumbsup:

AFAIK, there is actually no way of knowing, just by looking, that collie isn't carrying the gene for merle (becuase it can be expressed in the coat as a very, very small section of coloration, which can be easily missed)- as a result, you could inadvertently breed 2 together- with disastrous results!

I'm not sure if there is they a reliable DNA test which would identify the gene- making the practice of producing a nice colour, safer.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> AFAIK, there is actually no way of knowing, just by looking, that collie isn't carrying the gene for merle (becuase it can be expressed in the coat as a very, very small section of coloration, which can be easily missed)- as a result, you could inadvertently breed 2 together- with disastrous results!
> 
> I'm not sure if there is they a reliable DNA test which would identify the gene- making the practice of producing a nice colour, safer.


There is a DNA test that shows if the dog is merle and most experienced breeders use that when there is any doubt. The same way there is a DNA test to show if the dog carries dilution gene and can give puppies with this gene.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> There is a DNA test that shows if the dog is merle and most experienced breeders use that when there is any doubt. The same way there is a DNA test to show if the dog carries dilution gene and can give puppies with this gene.


I did not know that, thank you for the information.

I do know of a few merle collies who died before a year old due to a variety of disorders. 2 with epilepsy and one just faded and died at 12 weeks. These all occurred within about 2 years of each other, and all acquaintances on the agility circuit.

May just have been coincidence and may not have been related to the merle gene, but it put me off me even more.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> May just have been coincidence and may not have been related to the merle gene, but it put me off me even more.


Not related to the merle gene, no. Epilepsy occurs in all colours of BCs and can't be tested for (unfortunately). The latter sounds like TNS which can be tested for.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I just wondered if, in the rush to produce fancy colours, perhaps general good health took a bit of a back seat. I don't know.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> I just wondered if, in the rush to produce fancy colours, perhaps general good health took a bit of a back seat. I don't know.


Could do - but there are plenty who produce the "usual" colours who don't health test.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Absolutly true, merlinsmum, but I do know that the merle collies earned the breeder a nice premium. They were more expensive than the non merles.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> Absolutly true, merlinsmum, but I do know that the merle collies earned the breeder a nice premium. They were more expensive than the non merles.


So does anyone these days who claims a rare colour, so did chocolate and then fox red labs :thumbdown:. Whatever colour is trendy or unusual will go for a high price, though they rarely come at the cost double merle does.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Absolutly true, merlinsmum, but I do know that the merle collies earned the breeder a nice premium. They were more expensive than the non merles.


Not any more.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Nicky10 said:


> So does anyone these days who claims a rare colour, so did chocolate and then fox red labs :thumbdown:. Whatever colour is trendy or unusual will go for a high price, though they rarely come at the cost double merle does.


merle to merle breeding is a no no


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Absolutly true, merlinsmum, but I do know that the merle collies earned the breeder a nice premium. They were more expensive than the non merles.


The first merle collies I knew were bred by an obedience person. They were sought after because of where they came from not because of their colour. I have never seen any costing more than a black and white with the same breeding.
Merle shelties have never cost more than the other colours as far as I know. Certainly the one I had was the same.

I have to say I love a nice merle, not so keen on the sable merles though.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> Absolutly true, merlinsmum, but I do know that the merle collies earned the breeder a nice premium. They were more expensive than the non merles.


Any breeder who charges different prices for colours or sexes is not ethical in my eyes and I wouldn't look twice at such litters. 
I am very glad that during my search for a breeder I did not encounter such people. In fact all of the breeders I spoke to had a policy of "no reservations by coat or eye colour".


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Im sure what yoi are saying is true for you, but I know of two close friends who payed more for merle collies they chose from a mixed litter.

I'm glad good breeders do not allow new owners to reserve particular colours.

We are all human though. Every one has preferences


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