# Stud and queen(pregant) live together?



## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

A big thank you to anyone that offers advice in advance ☺
I am aware of the protocol surrounding breeding and spent 18mnths the researching , finding out as much about siamese as a breed ,cost , housing feeds ect .
Now 2 years later we have a stud and queen (both registerd and well kept )large stud parlour outside , although our babies live indoors with us and spend time in their out door home when they want to ☺
simba and peekaboo are very much in love and have now conceived there first litter ( 14 days to go ) homes allready secured for neutered kittens on a list .
Picca and Simba have lived together since they left their mums and i brought them at 6 months. They are so close and both get very stressed when they are seperated.
Simba does not spray and so his outside home has not been used for its intended purpose.
they are happily living side by side so far through the pregancy .
Now this is my problem/concern...
Simba is still trying to mount her and she isn't attempting to stop him, she is not stressed by this, but lies flat so that he cannot actually enter her.
All the facts say he shouldn't live with her and is a risk but they both cry endlessesly when seperated ( I have tried for 48hours ) .
Has anyone been in a similar situation with their pets? Is there a chance he will be OK with her an the kittens.
how can I help them settle without each other? 
I really hope you lovely folk on here can offer some positive advice or insight.
peekaboo and Simbas doting slaves, jess and em xx


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I would not allow my boys to interact with the girls if he was going to continue mounting her. 

There will also be a risk after birthing that she will become pregnant again too soon.

My boys love interacting with their kittens, but I would never leave them there for birthing or to live with the girls when mating would be inappropriate.

My boys live together along with neuters and kittens visiting so they're never alone. Hopefully your boy will learn to settle in his own quarters, have you asked your mentor what her boys are usually like? Unusual for a breeder to have only one queen and one stud, usually the boy comes along later when there's enough work for him and the breeder is experienced enough.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

My boys were always in the house and some helped look after kittens although obviously not around the time of the birth. What worries me is the fact your boy is trying to mate a girl not in call. My boys never did that. What are you going to do about him while your girl rears her kittens and then has a rest to get back condition before she has more? If he is frustrated already it might be better to get him a suprelorin implant so he is happier and less risk to your girl.


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

spotty cats said:


> I would not allow my boys to interact with the girls if he was going to continue mounting her.
> 
> There will also be a risk after birthing that she will become pregnant again too soon.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input on this situation
so with regards to unwanted pregancy, so far tp prevent them mating successfully we use birth control (depo) to keep her out of season untill we stoped to mate. When seperated. again the pair become stressed ( crying , diaria, escapism ) 
Simba has 3 queens available to him at present so I feel his needs are met but when alone his cry for picca boo is something special, sooo sad not just calling

So,with the mounting it tends to start when she initiates play he holds he neck and stands over for around 30 secs...could this be a show of dominance ? And as it's their first litter could it be that he just doesn't understand what will happen now they have mated? That he will have kittens soon.
I have now put up a secluded area in our lounge so they can stay side by side but he can't cuddle her anymore
they keep trying to get to one another .
plus simba has never sprayed so the need to use his outdoor housing has not fitted in with his constant desire to be adored by his humans in the house ( love my big handsome dude )
So any ideas so how to seperate bonded cats.?


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

QOTN said:


> My boys were always in the house and some helped look after kittens although obviously not around the time of the birth. What worries me is the fact your boy is trying to mate a girl not in call. My boys never did that. What are you going to do about him while your girl rears her kittens and then has a rest to get back condition before she has more? If he is frustrated already it might be better to get him a suprelorin implant so he is happier and less risk to your girl.


Thank you , that is a great idea as currently she has used the depo for this situation.
This is the first pregancy he has witnessed he mistakes her talking /asking for extra food/ play noises lol as calling but He DOES realise very quickly she isn't game so to speak 
thanks guys x


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

HE won't be having kittens. Cats don't make parental bonds in the same way as humans do. He is clearly displaying signs of sexual frustration, and by only having two cats you have created a bond that you are now not able to fulfil. Normally there will be neuters in the home that a boy can be put with for company, and it is clear that three girls is not enough for him. Some boys require multiple girls a month to be satisfied. 

I'm concerned that you've been poorly mentored, or not mentored at all. I would be extremely wary of using an implant on a young stud, especially if this is his first litter.

As he is young, I would suggest getting an older neutered kitten as a companion and make slow introductions, and either purchasing more queens for yourself to keep him happy or consider open stud. The only concern with open stud is that you are risking STIs so you would need to be extremely careful on who you allow in, and ensure they snap test negative for FIV and FeLV, are registered, and you will have to keep on top of his snap tests to ensure his health.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> HE won't be having kittens. Cats don't make parental bonds in the same way as humans do. He is clearly displaying signs of sexual frustration, and by only having two cats you have created a bond that you are now not able to fulfil. Normally there will be neuters in the home that a boy can be put with for company, and it is clear that three girls is not enough for him. Some boys require multiple girls a month to be satisfied.
> 
> I'm concerned that you've been poorly mentored, or not mentored at all. I would be extremely wary of using an implant on a young stud, especially if this is his first litter.
> 
> As he is young, I would suggest getting an older neutered kitten as a companion and make slow introductions, and either purchasing more queens for yourself to keep him happy or consider open stud. The only concern with open stud is that you are risking STIs so you would need to be extremely careful on who you allow in, and ensure they snap test negative for FIV and FeLV, are registered, and you will have to keep on top of his snap tests to ensure his health.


What is the risk to the boy from an implant compared to depo injections in a maiden queen? This method has already been used. I agree the situation needs to be addressed but having more cats at the beginning of a breeding programme does not sound a great idea to me.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Depo injections are a huge risk for a maiden queen, more often than not they destroy the fertility of the queen. I've seen the resulting litters from depo in a maiden and it's not something I would ever advise. There is a similar risk in a young male, with the capacity of producing more at risk litters. Personally, I wouldn't risk it.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Depo injections are a huge risk for a maiden queen, more often than not they destroy the fertility of the queen. I've seen the resulting litters from depo in a maiden and it's not something I would ever advise. There is a similar risk in a young male, with the capacity of producing more at risk litters. Personally, I wouldn't risk it.


At least in this case the maiden has been able to conceive. We hope the depo injection will not have caused a problem with the kittens.

I know little about Suprelorin except that it has been a great help to some people. I thought the main difficulty was the variable time it was effective. It can be as little as a few months with some boys and very extended with others. Have you heard of defective kittens *proven* to be a result of Suprelorin?


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> HE won't be having kittens. Cats don't make parental bonds in the same way as humans do. He is clearly displaying signs of sexual frustration, and by only having two cats you have created a bond that you are now not able to fulfil. Normally there will be neuters in the home that a boy can be put with for company, and it is clear that three girls is not enough for him. Some boys require multiple girls a month to be satisfied.
> 
> I'm concerned that you've been poorly mentored, or not mentored at all. I would be extremely wary of using an implant on a young stud, especially if this is his first litter.
> 
> ...


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> At least in this case the maiden has been able to conceive. We hope the depo injection will not have caused a problem with the kittens.
> 
> I know little about Suprelorin except that it has been a great help to some people. I thought the main difficulty was the variable time it was effective. It can be as little as a few months with some boys and very extended with others. Have you heard of defective kittens *proven* to be a result of Suprelorin?


Proven, no. Much like reactions to vaccines, the evidence is purely anecdotal. I don't know about you QOTN, but when breeders of 20+ years are saying the same thing, I tend to listen 



Jessemese said:


> He has produced 3 litters of healthy kittens with visiting queens and is upto date and checked for felv /fiv .
> When I purchased simba he had allready been living with picca for sometime ( previous breeder was down sizing due to age and we intended to seperate them but the issue was the same then as it is now with the stress around seperation.


Are you not discussing all of this with your breeder also? Did his previous breeder also keep him indoors, or did they keep them both out in a pen? Have all of his litters been with you?

Your only real options are to give him a neutered friend and move him outdoors, where he can be given access to more queens, put him on an implant, or buy more queens to put to him. He's sexually frustrated so that needs addressing first and foremost. Secondly he is lonely so needs company whilst he is away from queens.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> Proven, no. Much like reactions to vaccines, the evidence is purely anecdotal. I don't know about you QOTN, but when breeders of 20+ years are saying the same thing, I tend to listen


Sorry but I don't necessarily. There are all sorts of breeders with 20+ years of experience!


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Depo injections are a huge risk for a maiden queen, more often than not they destroy the fertility of the queen. I've seen the resulting litters from depo in a maiden and it's not something I would ever advise. There is a similar risk in a young male, with the capacity of producing more at risk litters. Personally, I wouldn't risk it.


She is carrying 5 seen by xray , so I don't think it has affected her fertility and the other litter have been with another small hobby breeder who have had healthy litters .6,5,7 .we intend to introduce more queens to our own home in time.
My primary concern is his well being and I don't want my boy to be frustrated but as a new breeder ( everyone has to start somewhere ) and losing my mentor due to old age / dementure, she is no longer on hand to advise me. much to my dissapointment
I am now looking for the best advice .
They lived inside together and we indroduced a stud house when we took them home.

Feliways? For him to help relax ? 
Untill i can rectifie. ..I'm a novice but I'm. Dedicated to learning how to get things perfect for my darlings 
thanks again


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

If their need to be together is that strong, in my opinion you should do what is _best for them_.

That is, spay her (after the litter) and neuter him (now) and let them live their lives out together, in peace.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Jessemese said:


> She is carrying 5 seen by xray
> <snip>


It's very unusual in the UK to x-ray a pregnant cat just to determine how many kittens she is carrying.


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

OrientalSlave said:


> It's very unusual in the UK to x-ray a pregnant cat just to determine how many kittens she is carrying.


That should have said ultrasound


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

lorilu said:


> If their need to be together is that strong, in my opinion you should do what is _best for them_.
> 
> That is, spay her (after the litter) and neuter him (now) and let them live their lives out together, in peace.


I think this may be an option of us thanks for you input , I know alot of people will be making their assumptions about our situation. There was no telling that seperating them would be so hard for them as they have such a love for eachother.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Jessemese said:


> I think this may be an option of us thanks for you input , I know alot of people will be making their assumptions about our situation. There was no telling that seperating them would be so hard for them as they have such a love for eachother.


You would not have to neuter both of them. My first boy had a lifelong love for one of my girls. The difference is he never mated any girl not in call. If you go down the suprelorin route, you may find your boy has settled down by the time it wears off. By then you may have another girl who could continue his line and put your current girl back to his offspring. That would be the time to neuter him. I neutered my first boy when he was 2 and a half and he adored his Lolli until she died.


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

QOTN said:


> You would not have to neuter both of them. My first boy had a lifelong love for one of my girls. The difference is he never mated any girl not in call. If you go down the suprelorin route, you may find your boy has settled down by the time it wears off. By then you may have another girl who could continue his line and put your current girl back to his offspring. That would be the time to neuter him. I neutered my first boy when he was 2 and a half and he adored his Lolli until she died.
> View attachment 343386


Ahhh thank you for the picture they look soo peacefull ,
So the attempting to mate has only been happening for a few days now hence why I have come to seek some insight.
so she now has a lovely big birthing area that she can be kept seperate from simba but remain in the same room for now.

although simba has taken up residence in there at the moment since its completion this afternoon ...tomorrow we will start spending some extra time in his house and look for a housemate .


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I would also advise seeking out another mentor. You can have an unlimited amount and very often having more than one is useful as you get a range of different experiences. I have two mentors and a breeding buddy who is that the same point as me who I can compare notes with


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I would also advise seeking out another mentor. You can have an unlimited amount and very often having more than one is useful as you get a range of different experiences. I have two mentors and a breeding buddy who is that the same point as me who I can compare notes with


I would love nothing more than to find another mentor , we have Benn attending shows and Simba is attending the Croydon cat club on the 10th of feb , I hope this will be a good opportunity to make some new friends for guidance but breeders can by reserved to say the least.
I have put hours , days, months of time into my dream hobby .
I'm. Not about to give up I will just keep listenimg learning, I have a contact fairly new breeder 5 years , we keep in touch and she uses simba for the program of queens.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

They can be, but I'm sure if you explain who mentored you previously then they will become more open towards you. Failing that, apply to the Siamese clubs and ask if they can help pair you with a new mentor.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

@Jessemese I will be at that show as well. No much help in mentoring from me lol but would be lovely to meet you


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## Jessemese (Jan 27, 2018)

Vantuuz said:


> @Jessemese I will be at that show as well. No much help in mentoring from me lol but would be lovely to meet you


what a pretty Lil pudding face your cat has , thank you I'm really keen on meeting other cat fanatics and exanding my knowledge and making some new friend along the way .

Simba has some beautiful cats in his line and has taken on the looks of UK. Gr.ch magical hocus pocus . I swear he looks like his double and he is such a gent and just loves my shoulder and his belly rubsx


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Jessemese said:


> I hope this will be a good opportunity to make some new friends for guidance but breeders can by reserved to say the least.


Did you show neuters before getting breeding cats? I assume so since you mention spending months researching.
Usually if you've spent those first few years learning and networking, by the time you're ready to breed everything falls into place.

Not all cats are cut out to be breeders, just like not all owners are able to deal with all that comes with breeding.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

spotty cats said:


> Did you show neuters before getting breeding cats?


It is not always simple with Orientals and Siamese these days. Those who wish to breed to the SOP may not feel it is worth showing their cats. I certainly would not be showing my cats now if I still had young ones.


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

QOTN said:


> It is not always simple with Orientals and Siamese these days. Those who wish to breed to the SOP may not feel it is worth showing their cats. I certainly would not be showing my cats now if I still had young ones.


May I ask why?
Just sounds interesting.. Usually everyone here screams - don't you dare to think about breeding before showing etc


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I don't know if @QOTN would agree, but from my perspective with stewarding it seems like the SOP and the cats seen on the bench are no longer meeting up. She said flat heads are becoming an issue in both Siamese and Oris, as well as larger ears. I can't remember if they should be flared and are becoming more upright, or are upright when they should be more flared. That's just from my judge's perspective though, and I know there are lots of different opinions on this in the section.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Vantuuz said:


> May I ask why?
> Just sounds interesting.. Usually everyone here screams - don't you dare to think about breeding before showing etc


Many of the judges favour more extreme type. I am afraid the situation will only deteriorate with the new breed groupings planned. The judges who only judge Orientals will gradually be pushed out. The SCJAC will actually comment if a pupil judge seems to favour moderate type.

When I was breeding, I was trying to produce the all round good cat, not just a cat with its ears coming out the side of its neck instead of following the lines of the wedge. I am over stating my case here because not all judges are the same but those that are, tend to be quite dismissive in their reports and it could easily deter novices.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> Many of the judges favour more extreme type. I am afraid the situation will only deteriorate with the new breed groupings planned. The judges who only judge Orientals will gradually be pushed out. The SCJAC will actually comment if a pupil judge seems to favour moderate type.
> 
> When I was breeding, I was trying to produce the all round good cat, not just a cat with its ears coming out the side of its neck instead of following the lines of the wedge. I am over stating my case here because not all judges are the same but those that are, tend to be quite dismissive in their reports and it could easily deter novices.


It seems you and my judge are in general agreement, some of the cats I saw were horrid things. Lovely personalities but looked deformed.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Rufus15 said:


> It seems you and my judge are in general agreement, some of the cats I saw were horrid things. Lovely personalities but looked deformed.


I am wondering if your judge was one of the early breeders of Orientals. PW by any chance?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

QOTN said:


> I am wondering if your judge was one of the early breeders of Orientals. PW by any chance?


No, she's a retired Persian breeder. She's very old school though, she's been judging Meezers and Oris for quite some time so was judging the traditional look for many years and has a strong preference for it. She will generally award traditional over modern, particularly for flat heads, 'bat ears', deep-set eyes, and a lack of wedge head. I think I know more about their SOPs than my own!


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## Vantuuz (Jan 18, 2017)

Well I have seen only few siamese and orientals at shows (maybe just attending wrong shows  ) - however I have noticed there are quite a drastic difference in types.
I do not have a clue about SOP and which actually is new and which old type, but there are noticeable variations between cats..

I quite understand your pain..

It is shame, that some breeds get "typed up" so badly that actual health starts to suffer..  I know lots of people say similar about new type Persians, I however do not mind too much up to point where cats are actually without noses and nostrils :Locktopic


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Vantuuz said:


> Well I have seen only few siamese and orientals at shows (maybe just attending wrong shows  ) - however I have noticed there are quite a drastic difference in types.
> I do not have a clue about SOP and which actually is new and which old type, but there are noticeable variations between cats..
> 
> I quite understand your pain..
> ...


I don't like extremes in any animal - cats, dogs, horses etc.

Persians have got progressively more squashed faces over the years, and I've seen a few poor cats had nose leather between their eyes. GCCF now requires that no leather is above a line between the bottom of the eyes but even that is pretty squashed up and some more extreme cats still get awards from some judges.

Some breeds are becoming much too large IMHO - we know the issues in giant dog breeds, I would hate to see some cat breeds going that way. The ancestors of our domestic cat weigh up to about 4.5kg so a cat weighing well over 10kg is a giant, and I feel has effectively outgrown the genetics of it's ancestors.

And Siamese with ears coming out of the sides of their heads - yuck. This is from the Siamese Standard of Points:

"Ears - Rather large, wide at the base, set so as to follow the lines of the wedge. _Adult exhibits should be penalised equally for ears which are set too high and too low, distorting the balanced triangular effect._"

Clearly a lot of cats which don't meet this are getting awards, sometimes high awards.

The Oriental SoP is only slightly different:

"Ears - Large, pricked and wide at the base with their setting continuing the lines of the wedge. _ Cats should be penalised equally for ears which are set too high or too low, distorting the triangular effect._ Cats should be penalised equally for ears which are set too upright or too low, distorting the balanced triangular effect, or are tipped forward"

Both have "distorting the triangular effect" and that's what I want to see in my cats & kittens.

However I am also seeing cats of correct type getting awards in both breeds. One has to know the judge to show under.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> However I am also seeing cats of correct type getting awards in both breeds. One has to know the judge to show under.


I agree but those judges will be few when the new sections take effect in the coming years. The Oriental SOP actually has 'avoiding exaggerated type' added to the head section but not all judges seem able to read those 3 words. They also penalise unduly for 'ears too high' but give high awards for 'ears too low.' Some also find it hard to look at the bit behind the head, that rather large part of the cat which ends in a tail. Sound, clear coats? Excellent tabby patterns? What are they compared to EARS? When you think how few points are awarded for ears it is a mystery how all this arose in the first place.

It is definitely not just our section. I am sure some of the Persian judges see how far they can ignore the veterinary defects rather than accept the concern that caused the nose leather rule to be added. The furore at the time it was first suggested was frightening.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

And sadly, the SOP no longer states that the nose leather must be lower than the eyes, but as far as I know, states it must be between the eys. This is too far for me I'm afraid.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

carly87 said:


> And sadly, the SOP no longer states that the nose leather must be lower than the eyes, but as far as I know, states it must be between the eys. This is too far for me I'm afraid.


Unless the SOP on the GCCF website is out of date, the nose leather has not changed.

*Withhold Certificates or First Prizes in Kitten Open Classes for:*

1. Tabby markings (see note under Red Self)
2. Incorrect or extremely pale eye colour
3. Flecks or traces of incorrect colour in either iris
4. Incorrect pigment in nose leather, eye rims or paw pads
5. Almond or oriental eye shape and/or set
*6. The upper edge of the nose leather above the lower edge of the eye*
7. Any defect as listed in the preface to this SOP booklet

The break should be between the eyes.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Have to say I've seen more extreme Persians under TICA than I have under GCCF. I dislike that Persian in general, across all registries are bred for a progressively flatter face. I wish the doll faced Persians were more available, they're much nicer.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> Have to say I've seen more extreme Persians under TICA than I have under GCCF. I dislike that Persian in general, across all registries are bred for a progressively flatter face. I wish the doll faced Persians were more available, they're much nicer.


I have to say I am in complete accord with you Rufus.  I love doll faced Persians, they were the only kind of Persian cat available when I was a kid, and i really miss seeing them.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

chillminx said:


> I have to say I am in complete accord with you Rufus.  I love doll faced Persians, they were the only kind of Persian cat available when I was a kid, and i really miss seeing them.


They're enormously pretty aren't they? Little button snouts, ohh I love them!


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Are doll faced Persians liked by the show judges these days ?


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

I don't think so, I haven't seen any out on the bench but equally I don't go looking either. A quick Google search doesn't indicate any doll face breeders in the UK so I don't really know where they are.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

This seems to have strayed somewhat from the original topic. Please feel free to discuss standard of points on a thread of its own.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

They don't like doll faces at all. I still produce a few dollies in my litters, and am just as proud of them as I am the flatties. To be honest, I actually think they're prettier, but there you go. In fact, if I feel the look is getting too extreme for my taste, I will go back to a doll to ensure that I don't breed them too ridiculously flat. My preference, until I get hold of good imports with a sweet, open expression that is typey, rather than the punched in, compressed look.


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