# Pug bending head back



## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Hello

Our pug, Patrick, seems very uncomfortable and keeps stretching his neck back and looking up.

See here 
Pug looking up - YouTube

This is the fourth time he's done this since getting him at Christmas.
The last being around two weeks ago.
He's four months old.

The vet has checked him over and he's up to date with all vaccinations.
By the time we get him to the vets, he's stopped doing it and is too busy being curious to show signs.

Has anyone else had similar issues? Any help or advice is appreciated.
I'm watching him today and will take him to the vets if it continues, and hopefully plays up in front of the vet.

Thanks


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

No idea of a solution from me i'm afraid.
However, if the video is of your dog and not just an example i'm sure you could show it to the vet? If he doesn't do this infront of the vet at least the vet has something to go off. (I had to do this with pictures of poo  )

Just a thought if your worried. Hope it's nothing too serious.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Take the you tube clip to the vet, then he can watch it. Sorry not much help. 

Was he from a breeder who has health tested his parents? Pugs suffer from all kinds of neurological ailments and other ailments.


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks... And yeah, the video is of Patrick, taken last night.

He was still bending his neck back this morning, but after a play outside has calmed down and is now chewing a stick and grunting like an old man. Just a typical pug.

Will keep watch and keep you updated.

Anyone else with advice and similar stories, please share.

Thanks

R


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Needed to add I hope he is better soon. He looks a right cutie.


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

The breeder has been amazing... Sending me pictures of the other puppies and letting me know how the family are doing. They are seem well and she's never heard of this before either.

All KC registered.


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## Westy (Feb 19, 2013)

Is the breeder someone who is 'in the breed' and so likely to gain knowledge from other breeders, or just someone producing pet puppies at home?

Pugs are not my breed but as an ex-veterinary nurse and dog groomer, I've not seen anything like that but that's certainly not right... and I would want to know what is going on asap - he looks completely disorientated, poor soul.


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## AlexArt (Apr 25, 2010)

That's definitely not normal and looks neurological to me, it could also be a breathing issue as his face is very deformed he maybe struggling to get air in as you say he grunts a lot, putting his head back may alleviate that - a specialist is what you need!! As others have said as the breed has so many health issues I'd take the video to the vets and show them and see if you can be referred to a specialist, I'd be worried that one of the issues they suffer from is scoliosis which is common in the breed and it can trap nerves in the spine and often only shows up on an x-ray, but it's something I'd certainly get checked out if he's crying too, especially as he's still growing it could worsen. 
It makes me so mad that people purposely breed these poor animals like that, and the breeder showing videos of the others just to assure you the rest of the litter is fine, and being KC registered means nothing at all, unless both parents were fully health tested for all the problems that can be passed on to minimise the chances of health issues, only then I would class them as a semi responsible breeder, and you may have some come back on the breeder if they didn't health test and the pup has a genetic issue which costs you a fortune to treat that's more likely what they are worried about.


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## lisaslovelys (Jun 7, 2013)

No advice but I just have to say what an adorable little pup :001_wub:
Hope you find an answer soon tho


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

After a good sleep, a massive toilet break, a good play, and a big bowl of food, Patrick is annoyingly well and currently ripping the head off of a toy duck.

I'll keep watch of him and if it happens again and I can get another video as evidence will, as suggested, go straight to the vets.

His parents were both health checked and come from a good healthy line of pugs. He's not for breeding. He's a member of the family and here as a loving pet.

The breeders haven't been sending photos and videos to try and reassure me. They sent me info because I care, I asked, and they replied. Sorry for any confusion.

I'm not in total disagreement about the continuous breeding of pugs... But please let's not turn this particular thread into a debate, when I'm far too busy worrying and caring for a puppy, and seeking advice to help rather than a criticism of ownership.

Someone has suggested it could be teething pain.

Thanks for the advice all.

I'm thankful and concerned that no one else has experienced this... And will keep the thread updated.

In the meantime, I have a toy duck to bury.


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## WeedySeaDragon (Oct 7, 2012)

Given the potential neurological conditions that pugs can be afflicted with I would be getting him a referral to a specialist sooner rather than waiting to see if it happens again.

With regards to his parents, were they health _checked_ or health _tested_? The two are very different, the former being a quick once over by a vet to ascertain whether the dog is currently showing any outward signs of ill health and the latter being official schemes to determine whether potential breeding dogs are affected or carrying heritable conditions.

Unfortunately I don't think MRIs are currently recommended for pugs even though CM/syringomyelia has been seen in the breed.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I can only agree with others. This is not an isolated incident. Acting like that with teething pain,what a load of rollocks. Never seen this in my dogs as pups.

We are not on a witch hunt, we are concerned about your pup,as you are, or you wouldn't have posted on here.

These episodes that Patrick has been experiencing may become more frequent and severe. Please get him checked again as acting sooner, rather than later may have a better outcome. If it turns out to be nothing then you and he breeder have piece of mind. 

Please keep us updated. Really hope it isn't anything nasty.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

I thought it looked like it's a breathing issue, maybe he's learned that holding up his head clears his airways a little


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## lisaslovelys (Jun 7, 2013)

I also thought he may be doing it to relieve himself of some kind of throat pain/breathing issue ? 
But I am not going to pretend I know anything about it just an observation and my thought is all !!! 
I definatley would be taking that video to the vet tho


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RET said:


> Hello
> 
> Our pug, Patrick, seems very uncomfortable and keeps stretching his neck back and looking up.
> 
> ...


On looking and because its intermittent when it happens just wondering if its some form of seizure, there are different types of seizures.

There is also something in pugs called pug encephalitis which is an inflammatory problem of the central nervous system which I knew about but didn't know the exact symptoms of the symptoms below are what I found on a check.

What clinical signs (symptoms) are observed with pug dog encephalitis?

Pug dog encephalitis symptoms are associated with the inflammation/lesions of the CNS, primarily the brain tissue. Symptoms can include signs of lethargy and depression. However, common pug dog encephalitis symptoms also include seizures, walking in circles, abnormal or atypical behaviors, and signs that indicate blindness. One may also notice that the dogs head is consistently tilted to one side. The dog may stagger (ataxia) or can be seen pressing the head against solid objects (walls, doors, etc.). The dog may also walk or move as if the neck is stiff or in pain.

It may not be this at all but pugs can also suffer from various disc and spinal problems too so that may also be a possibility perhaps that he gets neck pain or spasms due to something like this. or it could be just some form of seizure totally unrelated to pug encephalitis.

If it continues to happen it does need investigation, if the vet hasn't seen the video I wold personally show him that could give him an idea. You could always ask for a referral to a neurologist specialist.


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## suewhite (Oct 31, 2009)

I would say for your peace of mind get Patrick checked if it carries on,but Harry my Tibetan Spaniel does this (another flat faced breed)I had all the tests on him and nothing found, sometimes he sits looking up at the ceiling with his head back for ages that he gets me doing it as well.:biggrin:Hope all is well with Patrick.


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

The vet has taken bloods to test for something to do with his liver. Ruling that out, it will be a scan.

Vet hadn't seen anything like it before, and at lease nothing like this in a pug... So if anyone else has got a similar story, please let me know.

Thanks


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

AlexArt said:


> That's definitely not normal and looks neurological to me, it could also be a breathing issue as his face is very deformed he maybe struggling to get air in as you say he grunts a lot, putting his head back may alleviate that - a specialist is what you need!! As others have said as the breed has so many health issues I'd take the video to the vets and show them and see if you can be referred to a specialist, I'd be worried that one of the issues they suffer from is scoliosis which is common in the breed and it can trap nerves in the spine and often only shows up on an x-ray, but it's something I'd certainly get checked out if he's crying too, especially as he's still growing it could worsen.
> It makes me so mad that people purposely breed these poor animals like that, and the breeder showing videos of the others just to assure you the rest of the litter is fine, and being KC registered means nothing at all, unless both parents were fully health tested for all the problems that can be passed on to minimise the chances of health issues, only then I would class them as a semi responsible breeder, and you may have some come back on the breeder if they didn't health test and the pup has a genetic issue which costs you a fortune to treat that's more likely what they are worried about.


I would definitely keep an eye on this and if it continues I'd suggest getting a specialist to look at him. It is probably neurological, pugs are getting smaller, so their heads are getting smaller meaning that their brain is squeezed into a small space (similar to cavalier KCS and chihuahua). This can cause neurological problems unfortunately.

Also suggested above it could be due to a deformed palate. Snub-nosed and wrinkly breeds have excessive skin folds in their respiratory tract making it hard to breath properly, although he sounds like he's fine during and after exercise which would be the worst time for it, which makes me more inclined to think it's neurological.

I really hope he gets better, or that you get it sorted asap, he's a sweet little thing


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## Argent (Oct 18, 2009)

Really hope it's nothing sinister, have you considered the possibility of PDE? (Pug Dog Encephalitis)

PDE: Just the Facts! (scroll down past the weird coding!)


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RET said:


> The vet has taken bloods to test for something to do with his liver. Ruling that out, it will be a scan.
> 
> Vet hadn't seen anything like it before, and at lease nothing like this in a pug... So if anyone else has got a similar story, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks


If there is something wrong with the liver then toxins can sometimes build up and cause neurological symptoms and seizures, so he is probably checking for liver function.


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## Stellabella (Jan 8, 2009)

Has he had any trouble in eating or regurgitating? 

I recently saw a video of a very young puppy with Megaesophagus doing this, but it was severe and constant. He was also making odd little noises. Probably nothing like it, but I must say it struck me as very similar. It might be worth asking the vet about it.
I hope they can get to the bottom of it, he's a lovely little fella!


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Update

Bloods have come back and show:
> Excess Phosphate
> Excess Uric
> Lack white blood

Suggestion > Low phosphate diet for 10 days, and then new bloods


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RET said:


> Update
> 
> Bloods have come back and show:
> > Excess Phosphate
> ...


Interesting about the High phosphate levels, because phosphorus is usually stored in the bones with calcium. You do get or should get some phosphate in the blood but not high levels.

Just a thought but do you know if the vet also checked his calcium levels? Only ask because calcium and phosphate usually interact and if one is high the other is quite often low. It seems too that if a dog has high Phosphate and low calcium then it can cause painful muscle spasms, cramping and even tremors.
they can also appear to be anxious and act a bit spaced out.

So just wondering if that was what could be causing his episodes.

Hopefully the diet will do the trick and you will see a difference.


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Interesting about the High phosphate levels, because phosphorus is usually stored in the bones with calcium. You do get or should get some phosphate in the blood but not high levels.
> 
> Just a thought but do you know if the vet also checked his calcium levels? Only ask because calcium and phosphate usually interact and if one is high the other is quite often low. It seems too that if a dog has high Phosphate and low calcium then it can cause painful muscle spasms, cramping and even tremors.
> they can also appear to be anxious and act a bit spaced out.
> ...


That's really helpful... thank you.
The vet said that the calcium levels were a little low, but nothing too abnormal.

Prescribed food from the vet is Royal Canin - Renal 
Renal Wet (Can) - Royal Canin

Also keeping him on the lead when letting him in the garden to help stop him eating any plants and stuff that he seems to love munching on. His specialty is a mouth full of moss with a sprinkling of dirt.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

I hope Patrick is better soon and it turns out to be nothing too serious.


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Reassuring - we found this video of another pug doing the exact same head tilt:

Pug acting weird - YouTube

From reading the comments to the video, it looks as though the episodes become less occurrent.

It might be that Patrick's head tilt is unrelated to the bloods - but thankfully we found out the issues sooner rather than later.

Will keep you all updated - thanks for support and advice

R


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Hopefully now you have the blood results you can do something  poor pup


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

How is Patrick doing?


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## Dianne58 (Feb 22, 2014)

Have a look at this wesite Pug Village | Pugs Pictures, Information & Forum it might help  x x x


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

PetloverJo said:


> How is Patrick doing?


He's doing good thanks 
Won't be sure if the bloods / kidney thing / and bending head back are all related.
We find out more next week when he goes back to give more bloods.

His strict diet isn't too bad.
I've managed to bake the wet food and make hard treats for him. So it's all good. So far.

Will keep you updated.

More next week no doubt.

R


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Update - 

Patrick went back for second bloods to compare and see if food diet has made any changes. Results came back with low calcium levels and still high levels of phosphates.

Patrick went back in for more blood tests one hour apart, with steroids to test for Addison's Disease.

Results came back today.
All clear for Addison's Disease, but still no reasons for the abnormalities.

On the plus side... he's not bent his head back since!

Next, is more bloods to see if there's any further changes, and then maybe a scan on his kidneys ... but the vet hasn't seen anything like it before.

Thankfully, none of the results are cause for much concern, providing we keep an eye on it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RET said:


> Update -
> 
> Patrick went back for second bloods to compare and see if food diet has made any changes. Results came back with low calcium levels and still high levels of phosphates.
> 
> ...


There is something or its one thing that will explain Low Calcium, High Phosphorus blood levels.

The Parathyroid Glands not the Thyroid itself, produce something called PTH Parathyroid Hormone and what that does is regulates the calcium and phosphorus. If the Parathyroid glands are not working you can get something called Hyper parathyrodism (over active) or Hypo Parathyroidism (Under active).

If they go Over active then it can cause High Blood calcium if they go Underactive it can cause Low Blood calcium. If it is underactive then dogs mosty have High Phosphorus Blood levels too. On checking to see if anything else can make it more a possibility if the blood tests have normal Albumin, BUN Blood urea nitrogen and creatinine then that's usually an indication too apparently.

High Blood calcium can be an indication of Kidney problems as far as I know not low, but with Kidney dysfunction then I believe what usually happens is that also the Creatinine is higher and also the BUN Blood Urea Nitrogen, Having said that the BUN at least doesn't usually elevate until about 75% of the kidneys are not working so that's not always conclusive for earlier Kidney problems.

As regards Addisons its usually the Potassium that's increase in the blood not phosphorous as far as Im aware but could be wrong and that may be as well.

I hadn't a clue how you test for Hypo parathyroidism but on checking there is something called a Serum PTH Concentration and with that has to be something called a Ionised calcium concentration test, if it is the problem then the test will come back with a low serum PTH which will either be undetectable or low normal and there will also be a low ionised calcium concentration.

Being as your vet hasn't seen anything like it might be worth mentioning to see if he does think its a possibility maybe.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Great post once again sled dog, is there anything you don't know? I think you're a secret vet but keeping it under wraps, lol. 

Tried to rep you but have to spread it around, unfair really as I rarely find posts that warrant it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Malmum said:


> Great post once again sled dog, is there anything you don't know? I think you're a secret vet but keeping it under wraps, lol.
> 
> Tried to rep you but have to spread it around, unfair really as I rarely find posts that warrant it.


My friends always had Keeshonds and its a problem in the breed or can be there is a DNA test for it in Keeshonds the version they have though is the hyper parathyroidism, knowing about that and what that does, its was just some lateral thinking and a bit of checking really to confirm it can go the other way too and if the theory was right and it could, just confirming that the bloods went the other way too, ie what the OPs dogs results were. So no big mystery or rocket science really.


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> There is something or its one thing that will explain Low Calcium, High Phosphorus blood levels.
> 
> The Parathyroid Glands not the Thyroid itself, produce something called PTH Parathyroid Hormone and what that does is regulates the calcium and phosphorus. If the Parathyroid glands are not working you can get something called Hyper parathyrodism (over active) or Hypo Parathyroidism (Under active).
> 
> ...


Thanks Sled Dog

The vet did mention something about parathyroid... but that he'd look further into things after the next bloods, as it's all guess work. But your info was helpful and reassuring that we might be getting nearer finding out what's going on.

Will keep all updated

Ta very much 

R


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## RET (Apr 15, 2012)

Probably the final update:

Patrick was showing the same head tilting signs all Sunday night.
This was after a long walk, and while family were over for dinner.

After reading related pug stories, we've found that other pugs do the same as a way of trying to sleep while sitting, especially when too curious too sleep but too tired to sit and play.

After a good sleep, again, he was fine and jumpy in the morning.

Sunday 23rd - Patrick went for more blood tests
The results came back today:
Calcium levels are fine
Potassium levels are fine
Phosphate levels are a little high, but nothing too unusual.

Turns out in small dog puppies, phosphates can be high to encourage bone growth.

So, he's slowly going back to normal food - which is good, cause this Renal diet stuff is making him have sloppy poop.

Overall... we're happy, he's alive and kicking, and doing great.

The head tilting thing is weird... but so are pugs.

Thanks all for your help and support, and I hope this has been of some use and reassurance to others.

If anything related crops up, I'll post back.

R


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank heavens that's all it is and that his bloods are back to normal.
So glad everything is OK now.


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## PetloverJo (Nov 4, 2011)

Glad he is ok.


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