# Running out of ideas



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

In the last week I have had 3 "poo episodes" and I am at a loss as to why this is happening. 

I started a poo diary back in September which I gave to the behaviourist but started a new one on the 23rd October. Up until the 26th we had 3 trays all with clay, from the 26th as per the behaviourists advice I increased the trays to 4. Since then he has pooed outside of the tray 7 times now, the last one being today. 

I have had 4 trays until Saturday but he has pooed outside of them 5 times, in them 19 times (some times on the same day he has pooed on the floor) and 3 days we have not had a poo. We had one episode just before we ripped up the old carpets, then one episode after the new carpet arrived. In between then we still had 4 trays but I moved them slightly but put them all back after I found a poo in the place where one of the trays should be. 

The cat attract litter didnt seem to help but I have now ordered some cat attract to go on the litter as I did not get along with Clean and Tidy. I have also placed an order for some incontinence pads so I will have one open tray with a pad in sprinkled with a bit of cat attract and see how we get on. If after 4 weeks we are not getting anywhere I will try and swap it to a covered one. If we are having some success I will gradually add litter to it so that he starts to associate litter with poo. 

I have ordered some cat grass for him, am going to make more of an effort to put butternut squash in his food just incase he has trouble pooing but the vet did not think he was constipated when I described his habits and she had a feel. I am trying to make an effort to play with him more and am going to go back through the log and put in my shifts from work to see if he does this more when I am not home, when nobody is home or if it makes no difference. 

I am going to give the behaviourist a ring tomorrow to see if she can shed any light on it but the advice she gave me last time was to add a 4th tray and try not to move them for 6-8 weeks. Unfortunately I have had to move them but more often than not they have stayed put. She also suggested he might be stressed or that the other cats might be stressed and he is picking up on it. Elsa is not stressed and Elise is much better, she is coming downstairs a lot more, sleeping in the cat tree and even getting on the cat tree when Elsworth is in his hammock and sleeping either on the platform next to him or in the other hammock. There has not been any weeing from her in ages and she is going out a bit more although now the weather has turned she is spending more time inside. 

Wherever possible if Elsworth does a poo outside of the tray he will attempt to cover it if there is something to cover it with. I noticed the poo when I got home as I heard him scratching trying to pull clothes over it  He doesn't really cover it in the litter tray though, he has a good dig to make a hole, then he goes and then jumps out again. He will cover it if he goes back in to the tray before I have scooped but redoes a wee or something and does not cover. 

He isnt left on his own all the time, when I am at home I play with him and never shut him out unless I am doing something he cant get involved in (rare) He sleeps in the bed every night so always has human company, either me or my husband and he is very bonded to both of us. 

When we have visitors he is often freaked out and hides but certain people he will come around to a lot quicker. My dad stayed for 10 days and after a week Elsworth was sitting with him but every morning he would go back to being scared of him despite being fine the previous night. My friends came to stay on Saturday and he came around really quickly, (surprisingly so) was getting strokes and sitting with them but by the morning he couldn't get away quick enough and hissed at the friend he was sitting with the previous night!!

Sorry for the huge essay but anything and everything is worth mentioning just incase it links in somehow!!!

I am getting really fed up with the poo now, I spoke to his breeder but all of his sisters from that litter seem fine and his brother from the previous litter doesn't seem to have any issues (he lives with her and is now going to be used for stud so he has outside living accommodation but before he started spraying he lived in the house)

Elsworth seems such a happy boy as well so I really dont know what is causing this


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

petscare said:


> You are in a big problem with all the poop on the floor.
> Why do not you arrange for a litter try with different kind of texture and sand. Or if you are using the try use one box and one tray . In general, cats prefer a soft, sandy texture when it comes to the litter substrate. use the variations and give them a choice. Hope it will help.
> 
> It is very wise of you to go the vet first but there seems no health issue. try thi option too.
> ...


----------



## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Did you say the Cat Attract litter did not work? None of my cats can resist the stuff, whereas I did not find the herbs for adding to normal litter to be of much use.
cat attract litter | eBay


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you tried confining him to see if that can help get him into a habit of using the litter tray: a room or if that doesn't work a large dog crate? Just his bedding at one end & a litter tray at the other (or choice of litter trays, depending on the room available) 

You could get him out for play periods, etc but now allow him to free roam & therefore stopping any accidents around the house again.


----------



## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm not familiar with any past posts regarding this so forgive me if i'm asking you to cover old ground....

Has he always been like this or is it something that started up recently?

How big are the litter trays? 
Do any other cats use them? If so would it be worth giving him his own litter box? Will he use a lidded one with a cat flap opening.. that you could program his microchip in? (I know, seems like an awful lot of hassle but...ya never know) 

You're keeping a poop diary, what do you record in there apart from when and where he poops? 
Do you record when the litter is changed or topped up? 
Do you record if there is anything at all in the trays when he goes in or outside of them. 
Do you record when the trays were washed.

Would it perhaps be worth keeping a very detailed general diary that logs just about everything in case its something thats currently being overlooked as unrelated...having a phone call, visitors, neighbours dog barking, washing the floor...anything. I know, another hassle that will probably not solve anything. Its just that he is pooping in them more than he is pooping elsewhere so I don't think its a litter box problem as such I think it could possibly be something so totally unrelated its not occurred to you.

I'm sorry its disjointed and i've fired questions at you. I've been awake over 28 hours and i'm just about one eyed at the screen right now. Will check back later but for now I need some z's


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Paddypaws said:


> Did you say the Cat Attract litter did not work? None of my cats can resist the stuff, whereas I did not find the herbs for adding to normal litter to be of much use.
> cat attract litter | eBay


Yep at first he loved it but after having it for about a month he was still going outside the box.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Have you tried confining him to see if that can help get him into a habit of using the litter tray: a room or if that doesn't work a large dog crate? Just his bedding at one end & a litter tray at the other (or choice of litter trays, depending on the room available)
> 
> You could get him out for play periods, etc but now allow him to free roam & therefore stopping any accidents around the house again.


I have considered that if nothing else works. I have a dog crate which he seems happy enough in as I shut him in that and covered it when we had the carpets done as he was a bit freaked out.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Polski said:


> I'm not familiar with any past posts regarding this so forgive me if i'm asking you to cover old ground....
> 
> Has he always been like this or is it something that started up recently?
> 
> ...


My diary logs where he has pooed, if he hasn't done a poo, when I find it, a specific time frame if I have one, change of litter type, moving trays around, if we have decorated, if we have had visitors. I don't log when I do the dusting, floor washing or any other form of housework but there is no harm in doing so.


----------



## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> My diary logs where he has pooed, if he hasn't done a poo, when I find it, a specific time frame if I have one, change of litter type, moving trays around, if we have decorated, if we have had visitors. I don't log when I do the dusting, floor washing or any other form of housework but there is no harm in doing so.


Its probably a very long shot but when youre scratching your head....

Jasper is a clean boy generally. but hes very possessive of me (I hand reared him) he has sprayed up me or other things when hes seen me fussing a new cat. He also started spraying his urine up the front door. Took me a while to suss that he was doing it up the front door when he didn't get to go outside, even if not going outside was his choice because of noises, wind, rain or snow (hes indoor but liked a quick pee and grass munch outside) That has stopped since I got the 80L tubs...he can spray his pee in them. So it wasn't him being "dirty" I think it was quite the opposite...he couldn't spray in a shallow tray and he's got a "need" to spray. I didn't keep a diary but it would have been so much easier to suss it if I had.


----------



## ALR (Apr 16, 2014)

I was going to say something similar to Polski. Do you think he's pooing as a way of marking his trays? Is he trying to warn the others that the tray belongs to him?


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

ALR said:


> I was going to say something similar to Polski. Do you think he's pooing as a way of marking his trays? Is he trying to warn the others that the tray belongs to him?


I have no idea. He first started pooing in July at the old house, the other two never used the trays back then and we're spending more time outside. Elise used them maybe 4 times between April and August, I never saw Elsa using them. At night and when we were out for long periods he was separated as we didn't have the dual scan flap. There were 2 trays upstairs and one downstairs all with wood clumping.

It was on and off for a month then we moved house. On the second night he did a poo on the sofa and it has been on and off since, averaging about once a week. We can go weeks with nothing then it will suddenly start, sometimes once but usually twice or more then the cycle repeats itself.


----------



## Polski (Mar 16, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> We can go weeks with nothing then it will suddenly start, sometimes once but usually twice or more then the cycle repeats itself.


If you are noticing a cycle then I think keeping up with the diary is your best bet of getting to the bottom of it. A more detailed diary. This one would be for your eyes and not the behaviourists so anything, everything including more personal entries that would be TMI for the behaviourist. I know dogs respond to human hormone cycles, human stress etc, cats may not show it as much but mine definitely act different around me when i'm upset even if i'm keeping it in.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Polski said:


> If you are noticing a cycle then I think keeping up with the diary is your best bet of getting to the bottom of it. A more detailed diary. This one would be for your eyes and not the behaviourists so anything, everything including more personal entries that would be TMI for the behaviourist. I know dogs respond to human hormone cycles, human stress etc, cats may not show it as much but mine definitely act different around me when i'm upset even if i'm keeping it in.


Thanks, will start keeping a personal diary then of my general moods, any arguments with hubs or at work, periods etc and we will go from there.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I definitely think you also need to have a tray with an inco pad or old towel in there, as he's showing a preference for softer things.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I definitely think you also need to have a tray with an inco pad or old towel in there, as he's showing a preference for softer things.


Yes that will be implemented when the order arrives 

I will then have 3 clay, 2 of which are covered and the 3rd open with the 4th open tray having the incontinence pad in. Will this be enough or do I need an extra tray for the pad?

He has just been kind of playing with Elise, she was on the cat tree rolling around attacking the poles and rubbing up against his hammock whilst he kept waving his paws about and turning upside down in an effort to get her to play with him. Elise got bored quickly though and left but he didn't bat an eyelid, just followed me upstairs for cuddle time.

I hope that one day they might play, she wants to play in general, he wants to play with her so maybe she will realise that playing with him is much better than by herself or with us.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I think having all clay and one inco pad is not the way to go. You need to have as many different types of litter available to him as possible. I'd go clay, natural clumping like Oko, Greencat, Nature's Calling etc, non-clumping like the dreaded Catsan, pelleted wood and paper pellets (Yesterday's News or Breeder Sellect). He needs to have at least one tray in every single room he has access to, even the bathroom and ideally the hall too. When he does a poo, bring him to it an d show him (obviously not by rubbing his nose in it, but point at it to direct his gaze, then use a very sad, distressed, and anxious tone of voice on him. I know, I know, it sounds mad, but it works well here when training difficult kittens. Next, let him watch you pick it up and put it in the tray. Then put him into the tray, and if he'll let you, gently paddle his front paws in the litter, all the time praising him like he's just picked your winning lottery numbers. Then when he jumps out (they all get straight out as soon as you let go of them), shove a load of treats down his neck and carry on making a big deal of the fact he's been in the tray at all.

I know it's tiresome, and not what you'll feel like doing when you see the poo, but it just might work.

Failing that, you're going to have to go right back to basics and crate him until he gives in and uses the tray again.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I think having all clay and one inco pad is not the way to go. You need to have as many different types of litter available to him as possible. I'd go clay, natural clumping like Oko, Greencat, Nature's Calling etc, non-clumping like the dreaded Catsan, pelleted wood and paper pellets (Yesterday's News or Breeder Sellect). He needs to have at least one tray in every single room he has access to, even the bathroom and ideally the hall too. When he does a poo, bring him to it an d show him (obviously not by rubbing his nose in it, but point at it to direct his gaze, then use a very sad, distressed, and anxious tone of voice on him. I know, I know, it sounds mad, but it works well here when training difficult kittens. Next, let him watch you pick it up and put it in the tray. Then put him into the tray, and if he'll let you, gently paddle his front paws in the litter, all the time praising him like he's just picked your winning lottery numbers. Then when he jumps out (they all get straight out as soon as you let go of them), shove a load of treats down his neck and carry on making a big deal of the fact he's been in the tray at all.
> 
> I know it's tiresome, and not what you'll feel like doing when you see the poo, but it just might work.
> 
> Failing that, you're going to have to go right back to basics and crate him until he gives in and uses the tray again.


He came to me on Breeders Celect but was soon choosing the wood clumping over that so we got rid of it. After months of wood clumping I put a tray of clay which he was choosing over the wood clumping. That's why I switched everything to clay as he was clearly showing a preference.

Ok so I need more trays and more litter...

1 covered tray containing clay in the kitchen 
1 open tray containing the pad in the lounge 
1 covered tray containing wood clumping on the mid landing 
1 open tray on the top landing containing Breeders Celect 
1 open tray in the spare room containing clay
1 open tray in our room containing wood clumping

So that's 2 clay (1 open, 1 covered)
1 incontinence pad (open)
2 wood clumping (1 covered, 1 open)
1 non clumping (open)

I keep the office door and the bathroom door shut when not in use. In our ensuite he has his food as he seems to prefer to eat separately.


----------



## ALR (Apr 16, 2014)

Just out of curiosity, do you put him in a cattery when you're away. If you do, how does he behave there? Just wondering if the poo issue is different when he's got his own space.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

ALR said:


> Just out of curiosity, do you put him in a cattery when you're away. If you do, how does he behave there? Just wondering if the poo issue is different when he's got his own space.


He has only been in once for 2 nights and I think he was fine but he can go ages here being fine so it is impossible to tell.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I also secretly hope the answer lies in finding the right cat litter and even the litter tray location  Right for the cat that is. And it's not as easy as it seems.

My Daisy has a choice of cat litter brands in the trays and she uses all the trays. I recon she finds them all appealing so goes in ... but makes "a mental note" of any incidents when the pellets were too big and uncomfortable for her dainty paws. So if I don't mix Nature Gold with OKO Plus at least 50/50 I find poo on the bath mat  

I also read Jackson Galaxy's book and he told a story of his kitty. Jackson put the tray in a spot most favoured by his cat but then started moving a litter tray only by a few centemeters each week to finally place it - after a few months - where he actually wanted it to be


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

As from tomorrow I will have 5 trays and 3 different litters, as from next week I will have an extra one with a pad in. 

Now how long do I leave it before making any changes? Do I hold off on the painting of woodwork until a certain time as once I start that then he will be blocked from certain rooms/areas. Does it make a difference as he will still have trays in the rooms he has access to?


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I would only paint one room at a time, and would confine him to a single room while you do this, rather than blocking him just from the painted area. I'd give him lots of trays in that room while he's in there. Start that routine a while before you start to paint, then he'll be used to being confined long before the strange smell of paint is introduced. Make confinement fun by giving him treat puzzle toys and boards or a really big high reward meal so he sleeps a lot.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I would only paint one room at a time, and would confine him to a single room while you do this, rather than blocking him just from the painted area. I'd give him lots of trays in that room while he's in there. Start that routine a while before you start to paint, then he'll be used to being confined long before the strange smell of paint is introduced. Make confinement fun by giving him treat puzzle toys and boards or a really big high reward meal so he sleeps a lot.


Ah ok I hadn't thought of doing that. I doubt I will get round to doing the woodwork any time soon so I might just give it a few weeks of no interruption as we have now finished the main decorating.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Right then as of tonight there are 5 trays, some open, some higher sided and some covered and I have a choice of 4 litters, one clay clumping, two wood clumping and one paper pellets. 

All poo is in its rightful place today, cat attract has been added to the clay and the cat grass is in place and ready yo go. Butternut squash and extra water is being added to one meal a day for all cats so there should be plenty of fibre and moisture for all of them!

Final step is the pad and then we wait and see. Hope it works!


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Fingers very firmly crossed for you! Do let me know!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I feel like banging my head against a brick wall. Came home today to find a poo next to the litter tray despite having 5 to choose from with a selection of different litters and style trays. 

I picked it up and showed it to him and said I didn't want poo in the house and then put it in the litter tray. He wasn't very cooperative about me putting him in there but I told him he was a good boy. He got back in to cover it so I made a huge fuss of him when he got out. 5 minutes later he went for a wee in the other clay tray. 

I have gone back to the poo diary and colour coded all mu shifts and there is definitely no pattern. It happens if I am late, staying over, early, mid, off. Hubs does the same shifts give or take an hour so it is easy to see if that is linked i.e. if he only does it during the week or weekends and it is both. 

Maybe this pad will do the trick...if not then I will give it until after Christmas and then restrict him to one room when he is not being supervised. If that doesn't work then I will have to go with the crating.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Restricting him to one room simply won't work. The restriction works on the idea that a cat will not poo near where it eats or sleeps. A room's too big to be effective, so please don't lose time doing this. If you're going to restrict, then you go straight for crating.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

My feeling is that cats need time to adopt to a change even if it's a positive one like offering more trays and more variety of cat litter. I wonder if it hasn't been long enough for him to process the good changes in his environment :001_unsure: IMO it takes time to reinforce a habit, training or re-training takes time.

Can you give your boy more time to figure out what is expected of him? I suppose at least 3 more weeks before you change the tactics and consider using a crate etc.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Restricting him to one room simply won't work. The restriction works on the idea that a cat will not poo near where it eats or sleeps. A room's too big to be effective, so please don't lose time doing this. If you're going to restrict, then you go straight for crating.


Ok I will see how we get on. I have been logging my shifts noting if I go out, if hubs goes out, the washing, any other housework and my general mood.

What I did notice last night is that one of them had attempted to go in the paper tray in the spare as it was scattered over the floor. I am presuming it was Elsworth as there was a small piece of poo next to it. If you walk out of the spare room to the right are the stairs, the main poo was on the mid landing next to the bottom step and to the side of the clay covered tray.

It almost looked as if he couldn't make it all the way into the tray in time but the poo was solid so no signs of diarreah. There is a tray of golden pine in our bedroom upstairs and a tray of Greencat on the top landing.

Other than a preference to poo on soft things is there anything else that can be causing this? Can he be stressed out by something? We do have a cat that visits at the windows, he doesn't seem upset just interested but I will be keeping tabs on the dates and logging that anyway.

Can he be pooing as a result of being unhappy because he has no other cat to play with?


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> My feeling is that cats need time to adopt to a change even if it's a positive one like offering more trays and more variety of cat litter. I wonder if it hasn't been long enough for him to process the good changes in his environment :001_unsure: IMO it takes time to reinforce a habit, training or re-training takes time.
> 
> Can you give your boy more time to figure out what is expected of him? I suppose at least 3 more weeks before you change the tactics and consider using a crate etc.


I won't be changing things until after Christmas now so it gives us a good month to track things and see how we get on. I really don't want to resort to crating him, I would miss my night time snuggle buddy!


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Have you considered Middening as the cause of all of this? Are you logging how much contact he's had with other cats when doing this? Is the poo always in a prominent place? Does he try to cover it or leave it on display? If the paper was scattered, then he's obviously been in the tray, so my feeling there is that he's been in and decided he doesn't like it, then has come out again. I really think soft pads are your answer here, short of crating of course.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Have you considered Middening as the cause of all of this? Are you logging how much contact he's had with other cats when doing this? Is the poo always in a prominent place? Does he try to cover it or leave it on display? If the paper was scattered, then he's obviously been in the tray, so my feeling there is that he's been in and decided he doesn't like it, then has come out again. I really think soft pads are your answer here, short of crating of course.


The poo has been:

On the bed (covered with the quilt if possible)
On the sofa (not covered as nothing to cover with) 
On the bathmats (covered up with the corner)
On the carpets: Corner of office (nothing to cover with) 
Corner of spare room (nothing to cover with)
Next to litter tray in spare room, office, landing, kitchen and our old bathroom (nothing to cover with)
Down the side of our bed near the window om the opposite side to the door. The first time it wasn't covered as he was trying to get some poo out still. The second time I was alerted to it by the sound of him scratching as he was using clothes to cover it.
In his play cube next to the litter tray (old house)

In the old house he was always separated at night and for long periods of time from the others. That is how I found out it was him as he was the only cat to have been upstairs when the poo was found.

In this house they are left to mingle, generally they just do their own thing. At night the girls are in and out, during the day they all seem to sleep either Elise and Elsworth in their hammocks or her upstairs and Elsa on the poof downstairs. Currently Elsa is downstairs, Elise upstairs in her room and Elsworth in our room.

Pads arrived today so going to put that litter tray on the top landing and put Greencat in the lounge.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

The pattern here is that he's preferring soft surfaces to poo on, always.

Sometimes, if cats have a painful experience in the tray, they will associate the pain with the tray and won't use it for certain bodily functions again. I wonder if it hurts him to poo? Are they particularly firm? Is he raw fed? If so, what's his bone proportion, or what brand do you feed? When you put the pads in, take him and show him so he knows they're an option.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> The pattern here is that he's preferring soft surfaces to poo on, always.
> 
> Sometimes, if cats have a painful experience in the tray, they will associate the pain with the tray and won't use it for certain bodily functions again. I wonder if it hurts him to poo? Are they particularly firm? Is he raw fed? If so, what's his bone proportion, or what brand do you feed? When you put the pads in, take him and show him so he knows they're an option.


I have been wondering if he is constipated due to a lack of fibre as he does small pieces of poo. I compared the better quality stuff like Macs etc and it contains less fibre than Felix AGAIL which he came to me on. I did a gradual changeover over a couple of weeks and since then he has always done small poos. I put it down to the better quality food but then I came across a website that got me wondering. I asked the vet who had a feel but didn't think he was. Since then I have been trying to add half a teaspoon of butternut squash to a meal as well as extra water to one or more meals. Sometimes the poos are bigger than other times but 9/10 they are small pieces.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Small pieces suggests they're hard or difficult to pass. He doesn't have to be bunged up to make it sore for him to go. Ditch the squash and use pumpkin puree instead. Not half a teaspoon, he needs a nice heaped teaspoonful with each meal. It'll make the poos bigger, but a lot softer so much easier to pass.


----------



## JaimeandBree (Jan 28, 2014)

Have you actually seen him poo on the floor Oggers? Just wondering because you say it is mostly small pieces - is it possible that some poo is getting stuck to his bottom after using the tray and then detaches itself later? That would explain the sporadic nature of it and finding it in so many different places. It happens to my Bree sometimes, a bit off poo sticks to her fluffy knickers and comes flying off later, I know because I've seen it happen, after she comes zooming out of the box. As a result every so often I find a small piece of poo on the floor.

I haven't read all your threads so sorry if you have considered this already, just thought I'd mention it in case it really is that simple!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

JaimeandBree said:


> Have you actually seen him poo on the floor Oggers? Just wondering because you say it is mostly small pieces - is it possible that some poo is getting stuck to his bottom after using the tray and then detaches itself later? That would explain the sporadic nature of it and finding it in so many different places. It happens to my Bree sometimes, a bit off poo sticks to her fluffy knickers and comes flying off later, I know because I've seen it happen, after she comes zooming out of the box. As a result every so often I find a small piece of poo on the floor.
> 
> I haven't read all your threads so sorry if you have considered this already, just thought I'd mention it in case it really is that simple!


No but there is either a pile or the odd piece. The odd piece is when it gets stuck but obviously the nice pile is when he poos in one place.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Small pieces suggests they're hard or difficult to pass. He doesn't have to be bunged up to make it sore for him to go. Ditch the squash and use pumpkin puree instead. Not half a teaspoon, he needs a nice heaped teaspoonful with each meal. It'll make the poos bigger, but a lot softer so much easier to pass.


What is the difference between the two? Do supermarkets still sell whole pumpkins so I can make my own? If not where can I find Libbys pre made puree?

Overnight there was a poo in the kitchen tray (covered clay) a bigger bit and a small bit. I am going to start tracking the food as well to see if certain foods are triggering it. Some brands or even flavours are harder than others so it is worth tracking.


----------



## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

oggers86 said:


> What is the difference between the two?


A pumpkin is a cultivar of the squash/ gourd family. I'm guessing that specific cultivar has specific benefits over any other variety?


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

In my humble opinion, squash and pumpkin and even garden peas are pretty much the same as they are all decent source of fibre. I think it might be OK to add a teaspoon to each meal. The good bacteria in the gut need fibre to feed on and small portions of fibre but offered more frequently hopefully will restore the balance in the digestive system over time. 
Otherwise how about some probiotic? Maybe worth asking your vet about it?


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> In my humble opinion, squash and pumpkin and even garden peas are pretty much the same as they are all decent source of fibre. I think it might be OK to add a teaspoon to each meal. The good bacteria in the gut need fibre to feed on and small portions of fibre but offered more frequently hopefully will restore the balance in the digestive system over time.
> Otherwise how about some probiotic? Maybe worth asking your vet about it?


I thought they were the same too after googling about how to increase fibre in a cats diet.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I find that pumpkin is much more effective than squash. The supermarkets or markets often have pumpkins at this time of the year, but if not, Waitrose does tins of Libby's pumpkin, and I think Asda does too. I know you can definitely order them off Amazon. Check the ingredients as they are both labelled as pie filling, but one has spices and one doesn't. Obviously it's the non-spiced one that you want.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Probiotic is normally most effective in cases of diarrhoea, and this boy has the opposite, so although it won't do him any harm, I doubt it'll sort the problem.

All have fibre, yes, but pumpkin has hollow tube-like fibres which seem to retain water really well and act as a bulking agent better than anything else I've used.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I find that pumpkin is much more effective than squash. The supermarkets or markets often have pumpkins at this time of the year, but if not, Waitrose does tins of Libby's pumpkin, and I think Asda does too. I know you can definitely order them off Amazon. Check the ingredients as they are both labelled as pie filling, but one has spices and one doesn't. Obviously it's the non-spiced one that you want.


Google says tesco and waitrose have the natural ones so will try tesco first then I will have a road trip to my nearest waitrose as I am off tomorrow. If Amazon are cheaper I will probably use them for the future but I don't want to have to wait when I can just go and buy some 

If it is a stress thing will zylkene help? I have loads left from Elise and whilst it made no difference to her I wonder if giving him one dose a day may help?


----------



## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

oggers86 said:


> Google says tesco and waitrose have the natural ones so will try tesco first then I will have a road trip to my nearest waitrose as I am off tomorrow. If Amazon are cheaper I will probably use them for the future but I don't want to have to wait when I can just go and buy some
> 
> If it is a stress thing will zylkene help? I have loads left from Elise and whilst it made no difference to her I wonder if giving him one dose a day may help?


Double dose him everyday with Zylkene it won't hurt him and might actually help, deffo worth a shot! I look in to your thread frequently and hoping to see some improvement soon it's certainly not for the lack of trying on your part. X


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I actually wouldn't give this boy Zylkene as I think it'll set things back between him and the other cats. He doesn't lack confidence from what I've read, so Zylkene is unlikely to change anything. He's not doing this because he's frightened or anxious. If he was anxious and pooing, I'd expect it to be maddening, and as he's covering it up, it's not that.


----------



## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Applaws natural and applaws in a can both do chicken breast with pumpkin. I'm not sure whether it's complementary but might be worth trying for a day or so. I gave some to Huck who is incredibly fussy and he ate it (the tin version).


----------



## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Soozi said:


> Double dose him everyday with Zylkene it won't hurt him and might actually help, deffo worth a shot! I look in to your thread frequently and hoping to see some improvement soon it's certainly not for the lack of trying on your part. X


Personally if he was my cat I WOULD give him Zylkene. It won't do any harm and he may be feeling stressed (for a reason no one has thought of) even if he doesn't show it. I would never have put Huck as being stressed but he has been over grooming and the Zylkene has helped him.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> I actually wouldn't give this boy Zylkene as I think it'll set things back between him and the other cats. He doesn't lack confidence from what I've read, so Zylkene is unlikely to change anything. He's not doing this because he's frightened or anxious. If he was anxious and pooing, I'd expect it to be maddening, and as he's covering it up, it's not that.


He definitely isn't lacking in confidence. He is wary of Elsa after one too many of her right handers but he quickly bounces back when she tells him off. He isn't hugely clingy and is fine being on his own, if he gets lonely he comes looking for me for a snuggle but I can go hours without him moving from his hammock apart from to give me a poke in the head as I walk past. Him and Elise are now sharing the cat tree on a daily basis with no drama unless he tries to touch her or jump on her. Every now and again you will see this little paw stretch out and gently touch her or he rolls around upside down with both his paws out at her. It's very cute to watch but even in her most playful state she will not play with him.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

If I gave him zylkene what effects could it have between him and the other cats?


----------



## Soozi (Jun 28, 2013)

Oggers we can only speak as we find. My Liddy is a very confident cat but was anxious and stressed as far as I could tell about a strange cat coming into ur garden, the Zylkene really did help her after a few days she was the same cat but calmer. X


----------



## huckybuck (Jan 17, 2014)

Huck had it for over grooming - didn't realise he had a problem til I saw his tummy. 


I think Huck's "stress" was attention orientated. He was feeling left out as I was spending a lot of time with Gracie and he started to self comfort. I gave him Zylkene to help him feel happier in himself and worked on playing with him and spending time with him at the same time. I think in his case it was a bit of both that helped. 

I just don't think it would do any harm to try it or something similar.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

What I'm worried about is that he's already balchy with the other cats, and you had problems with integrating them. Zylkene increases confidence, and when you're more confident, you're inclined to push your luck further, so this may mean that he goes back to his intimidation/chasing/pouncing techniques with the others. It may not, but from personal experience, I would only give this to cats showing anxiety. In the other two cases, Huck showed he was stressed by grooming his tummy, and Liddy showed she didn't like the other cat. Elsworth has no specific trigger tha tyou've identified. He's not maddening because he's covering it up or trying to. He's not leaving it in doorways or access routes, which again he would do if he was feeling anxious and needing to claim territory. He's choosing soft surfaces and often going near the trays. This indicates, in my mind at least, that the problem is with the tray, not an internal one that will be fixed with Zylkene or similar things.

I'm not saying I'm right. I don't know him personally and don't live in your house, so it's impossible for me to say with certainty, but were he mine, this is what I'd do.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> What I'm worried about is that he's already balchy with the other cats, and you had problems with integrating them. Zylkene increases confidence, and when you're more confident, you're inclined to push your luck further, so this may mean that he goes back to his intimidation/chasing/pouncing techniques with the others. It may not, but from personal experience, I would only give this to cats showing anxiety. In the other two cases, Huck showed he was stressed by grooming his tummy, and Liddy showed she didn't like the other cat. Elsworth has no specific trigger tha tyou've identified. He's not maddening because he's covering it up or trying to. He's not leaving it in doorways or access routes, which again he would do if he was feeling anxious and needing to claim territory. He's choosing soft surfaces and often going near the trays. This indicates, in my mind at least, that the problem is with the tray, not an internal one that will be fixed with Zylkene or similar things.
> 
> I'm not saying I'm right. I don't know him personally and don't live in your house, so it's impossible for me to say with certainty, but were he mine, this is what I'd do.


I definitely do not want him to be worse than he is around Elise or start to push Elsa's buttons. At least now he listens to one of them when they tell him off.

We will just have to persevere with the trays and litters and see how we get on.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Elsworth has been very good and only pooed in the litter tray from Saturday to last night. He isn't using the tray with the pads just the clay one and it seems the Golden Pine for weeing. 

The pumpkin has arrived so I have decanted it into ice trays. How many teaspoons should I give him a day? I am thinking of giving him 3 good teaspoons per day. Will this need to continue long term? It isn't particulately cheap if he needs 3 teaspoons a day long term!!!


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

3 teaspoons a day sounds a large amount to me. I gave my cat less than a teaspoon once a day when he had problems a year ago. You need to go very carefully with it, you don't want the cat producing large stools, or you risk the cat not being able to poo, or being uncomfortable when defecating. Cats being carnivores are designed to have quite small stools. 

Also, if you're planning to use it often, why not buy fresh pumpkin or butternut squash from the supermarket, peel it, chop it and steam it, then mash and put into ice cube trays and freeze. Got to be a lot cheaper than buying the canned stuff, and takes no time to prepare at home.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I would start him off on more though CM, to get things moving. Perhaps mine are different to yours, but my lot didn't have excessively big poos on 1 tsp per meal which worked out to 2-3 good sized spoons per day. I'd be inclined to start big, then wean the dose down to wherever iis good for him, but again, can only talk from personal experience here, and perhaps mine are odd.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

I'll start off with 2 and go from there. In terms of buying fresh pumpkin it would be miles cheaper if I could find it when it isn't Halloween. I paid way too much for this tinned stuff from Amazon but I didn't read it properly. It is much cheaper to get 24 tins in bulk although still expensive at over £1 for a tin.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

I would try to be on a safe side and start with two teaspoons a day. Maybe even split over 3-4 meals so half a teaspoon each time. In my humble opinion pumpkin is used as means to feed the good bacteria in the gut and not the cat himself.

Another tip I found is about adding a few drops of olive oil. Just tried that yesterday and added it to one of Daisy's meal and it seem to have worked just an hour later.

Feline Constipation Home Page


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

oggers86 said:


> I'll start off with 2 and go from there. In terms of buying fresh pumpkin it would be miles cheaper if I could find it when it isn't Halloween. I paid way too much for this tinned stuff from Amazon but I didn't read it properly. It is much cheaper to get 24 tins in bulk although still expensive at over £1 for a tin.


Pumpkin is just a type of squash. Any kind of squash will do, you don't have to use only pumpkin. Butternut squash is available from supermarkets all year round and will be just as effective.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> Pumpkin is just a type of squash. Any kind of squash will do, you don't have to use only pumpkin. Butternut squash is available from supermarkets all year round and will be just as effective.


I was using butternut squash but pumpkin is supposed to be better. Anyway I have it now so will see what difference it makes and then go back to butternut squash and see if one is better than the other.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Interesting, CM. I found butternut squash to be much less effective with my guys. In fact, it didn't do anywhing! It's interesting how different the reactions are, isn't it?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

It is the amount of fibre in the squash that makes it work effectively in the bowel.

Squash are divided into the categories "summer squash" and "winter squash". Winter squash contains more fibre than summer squash.

Pumpkin is a winter squash, as are e.g. butternut squash, acorn squash, Hubbard squash. Hubbard and acorn squash are particularly high in fibre.

One cup of baked Hubbard squash provides 10 grams of fibre. The same amount of baked acorn squash provides 9 grams of fibre.

Butternut squash gives about 6.5 grams of fibre. Spaghetti squash and pumpkin contain higher levels of water, and are therefore lower in fibre than other kinds of winter squash.

A cup serving of baked pumpkin provides only 2.7 grams of fibre, so you would need more of it to have the same effect as the others ^^.

Perhaps it is the extra water in the pumpkin squash that makes it more effective for treating cats. In which case adding more water to one of the other squashes ought to work as well.

Here are some photos of Hubbard squash :

hubbard squash - Yahoo Image Search results

And spaghetti squash:

spaghetti squash - Yahoo Image Search results

And acorn squash:

acorn squash - Yahoo Image Search results

They are all available in the UK but you may need to shop around. Most of the supermarkets only sell butternut squash, or pumpkin around November time.

I have grown several types of the squash in the past, they are not difficult to grow. We eat a lot of them in my household.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> It is the amount of fibre in the squash that makes it work effectively in the bowel.
> 
> Squash are divided into the categories "summer squash" and "winter squash". Winter squash contains more fibre than summer squash.
> 
> ...


Interestingly I saw a post in dog chat suggesting pumpkin had more fibre.

I tend to add a bit of water to the food anyway so that should help ease things a bit. If adding squash to the food means Elsworth consistently poos in the tray then once I decide which suits us then I will look at a long term dose of one teaspoon a day.

Things are definitely a lot calmer in the house apart from when he s chasing Elise (she is still proving irresistible) At the moment both black cats are asleep on the same bed which is the second time in just a few weeks. Elsa often sleeps on the floor in our bedroom at the same time as Elsworth is in the bed and him and Elise happily share the cat tree.

I doubt I will ever find them within touching distance but the fact they are choosing to be in the same room when they don't have to be just shows they like each other just a teeny tiny bit


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

I've just done a quick bit of research and discovered that canned pumpkin is a good bit higher in fibre than fresh pumpkin. Apparently 7.1 grams per cup canned as opposed to 2.7 grams fresh/raw. This must be because a lot of the water is removed during the manufacturing process.

So from that POV it seems that canned  pumpkin is higher in fibre than fresh butternut squash. But still not as high in fibre as fresh Hubbard squash.

So when you can't buy fresh pumpkin go for Hubbard squash, if you can find it.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> I've just done a quick bit of research and discovered that canned pumpkin is a good bit higher in fibre than fresh pumpkin. Apparently 7.1 grams per cup canned as opposed to 2.7 grams fresh/raw. This must be because a lot of the water is removed during the manufacturing process.
> 
> So from that POV it seems that canned  pumpkin is higher in fibre than fresh butternut squash. But still not as high in fibre as fresh Hubbard squash.
> 
> So when you can't buy fresh pumpkin go for Hubbard squash, if you can find it.


Will keep an eye out when I go shopping. Can't say I have ever heard of Hubbard Squash.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If you buy a fresh squash or pumpkin, roasting it in the oven would remove water. Also depending on where you live, I suspect several different species can get described as a 'pumpkin' and that might affect how much fibre they contain.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ooooo, CM, very, very interesting information! Thank you for that! That explains a lot, as when I've needed to dose them, mine do much better on canned than fresh pumpkin, even though I remove as much water from it as I can.

Thank you!


----------



## Lunabuma (Dec 12, 2011)

How is he getting on with your other cats? Will they accept him coming close to them? Siamese are very social cats and love their companions as much as their hoomans. Perhaps a stress thing?


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Lunabuma said:


> How is he getting on with your other cats? Will they accept him coming close to them? Siamese are very social cats and love their companions as much as their hoomans. Perhaps a stress thing?


No he isn't allowed to get too close, a foot away is as good as it gets. I don't think they will ever want to snuggle or play with him, they don't seem like that kind of cat.

He isn't often completely alone though, I do a lot of lates and weekends so am often in mid week. He will come and find me if he wants me but mostly seems content in his hammock.

Adding a 4th cat would be a huge risk in terms of alienating the girls completely, a risk that Elsworth wouldnt accept it, a huge financial gamble and hubs does not in any way want another cat.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

This morning we have some poo next to the litter tray again 

There is quite a big pile but none of the bits are very big themselves. Looking back through the diary there seems to be nothing that jumps out. I have thought about separating him from the others when we are not with them but we were doing this in the old house, he started pooing in July, we moved in August so apart from a 2 night cattery stay we had a month where he was kept apart but he was still pooing on the bed or elsewhere. 

Is crating him my only option now? I am thinking about getting a new behaviourist as I am not thrilled with the one I have as there has been no contact since I rang her last. Is this normal for a behaviourist? I want someone I can drop an email to or who will drop me an email asking how we are getting on. 

Do cats always have a problem behavioural or medical if they poo outside of the tray or can they just enjoy pooing in a certain place or on certain materials?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

It is part of a kitten's training by the mother on where to poo. At a certain age (a few weeks old) the mother cat carries each of her kittens in turn in to the litter tray and then demonstrates what she expects them to do. The teaching ties in with a cat's natural instinct to poo on surfaces which are sandy or earthy. 

So for a kitten/cat who has been well trained by mum to deliberately choose to toilet away from the tray has to mean there is some kind of a problem making him feel uncomfortable about using the tray. 

As Elsworth usually poos right next to the tray it seems to me the most likely cause is intermittent physical discomfort in himself when he poos, or he is trying to tell you there's something about the actual litter tray he dislikes.

Can you remind me - have you done lots of experimenting with different types of tray, different litters? Have you tried giving him puppy training pads in his tray for a while to see if it helps? (in case it is the litter itself which he dislikes on his paws). 

When he poos next to the tray are his poos very hard or rather soft? Has the vet checked his anal glands to make sure they are not blocked? 

I believe many pet behaviourists charge an inclusive fee for a one off visit plus a follow-up over the phone or by email. If you need more than that, i.e.another visit or follow-up (by email or phone) I assume you'd have to negotiate that with her, and ask her to bill you each time. I doubt she will reply to you free of charge you see. .

I am not sure how effective it would be to crate Elsworth as he is pooing right next to the tray anyway, so it is clear he knows what the tray is for, and is choosing not to use it for his own reasons. If he were to be crated overnight perhaps he would decide to use the tray rather than go next to it, but once out of the crate he may go back to pooing next to the tray again, as the basic cause of why he does it would not have been addressed.


----------



## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

chillminx said:


> At a certain age (a few weeks old) the mother cat carries each of her kittens in turn in to the litter tray and then demonstrates what she expects them to do.


Do they? None of my queens have ever done that with any of their kittens, would be quite a circus if she tried.
Just putting a shallow tray in with the kittens is all that's needed, they know what it's for.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

chillminx said:


> It is part of a kitten's training by the mother on where to poo. At a certain age (a few weeks old) the mother cat carries each of her kittens in turn in to the litter tray and then demonstrates what she expects them to do. The teaching ties in with a cat's natural instinct to poo on surfaces which are sandy or earthy.
> 
> So for a kitten/cat who has been well trained by mum to deliberately choose to toilet away from the tray has to mean there is some kind of a problem making him feel uncomfortable about using the tray.
> 
> ...


We currently have 6 trays, 2 are covered, 1 with clay plus cat attract and 1 with Golden Pine. He only wees in the Golden Pine but does both in the covered clay. Have never seen the girls in these trays. We have 2 high sided open trays, 1 with clay plus cat attract and 1 with Greencat. He goes in the clay one but never the Greencat, that seems to be Elise's tray. Elsa and Elise both use the clay one. Finally there are 2 more open ones with lower sides, one has paper pellets, the other has an incontinence pad which I have changed once in a week as one of them weed on it.

Overnight I had forgotten to shut the bathroom door and pick up the bath mat which I try to remember as he had a habit of pooing on them. However since getting a new and better carpet he tends to poo on that although in the past with crappier carpets he has gone on the floor sometimes next to the tray, sometimes not. If it is not next to a tray but on carpet he goes in the corner.

I am tracking the food as well as my moods plus if me and hubs have had an argument or "special time" in the hope I can find a pattern.

He came to me aged 14 weeks and was completely fine until 6 months almost to the day when he first pooed on the bed after my friend stayed. It was put down to territory marking, then I thought he doesn't like change so the packing to move house, moving house, decorating, visitors were disturbing him.

In the last week we have not moved anything, only washed our usual clothes, had 2 people visit for about half an hour (not when he pooed) and I have been on a few lates and off during the week so he hasn't been on his own that much, just 4 hours tops. I can do a whole week of earlies and he is fine, a whole week of lates, a couple of nights I don't go home but he is fine.

This morning his poo was small pieces again despite the pumpkin/butternut squash I have been feeding. I mentioned it to the vet when I took him because he pooed all over the bedroom floor, she had a feel, checked his temperature etc and said he seemed fine.

When the behaviourist visited she said he didn't seem stressed, I asked her if he was unhappy about not being friends with the others and if he needed a friend, she said no. If I knew for certain he needed a friend and it would fix everything then I would either plead with hubs to let us get another or try and find him a home with cats he could be friends with. However without knowing for certain it is pointless doing either, getting another could make it worse for everyone and if I rehomed him but that didn't work then I will have rehomed him for nothing. His happiness will always come first but I am not willing to give him up on a possibility likewise getting another cat I may need to rehome because it hasn't worked.

I am more than happy to a send someone my log in case I can't see the wood for the trees.

He generally seems happy, he loves running around the house at top speed and launching himself at us, he snuggles up to us every night without fail and thoroughly enjoys hitting one of us so we let him under the covers. When he has a run in with Elsa he bounces straight back and just gets on with life. He still chases Elise but it isn't as often, all 3 are more than capable of sitting near each other and nobody is creating drama.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

The picture attached is what the poo from the floor looked like after it was put in the tray. Small pieces, fairly hard but not dry. There was a mark left on the carpet. 

Not sure what time he did it but we went to bed around 11pm and it wasn't there. I got up at 10am but didn't notice until half an hour later when I went back up the stairs. 

I add water to his food plus the squash/pumpkin and he now has cat grass. 

He is an indoor cat whereas the other two go out. Could this be upsetting him?


----------



## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

From the photo it looks like normal cat poo to me. Are you adding pumpkin to his food because of loose stools or constipation? 

It's possible he may be better if he went out, as he would be quite likely to toilet outside. Though litter tray issues may still arise if he needed to go during the night when shut indoors.

I have rather lost track of how old he is now, (sorry) - is he about a year old? If so then he's old enough to be allowed out if you are in a safe area. As I recall, weren't you planning to erect escape proof fencing in your new garden? So all 3 cats were confined to the garden? 

I definitely wouldn't be considering getting another cat as company for him. It will complicate things and the risk might be (as you say) it could make matters much worse, if he felt in competition with the newcomer. I don't think he is doing what he's doing because he's lonely. You seem to spend a lot of time with him, rarely leaving him longer than 4 hours at a time, which is great 

What ideas did the behaviourist have about the cause of it? Sometimes someone coming in from the outside with a fresh eye sees something the owner has missed. 

I'd be happy to read your log if you'd like me to, but can't promise to spot anything new you haven't already thought of and tried.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Has the vet checked him for constipation? Small bits of poo here & there plus the odd smear from scooting were the symptoms for Max. The poo wasn't completely dry but was very firm.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Nope, as CM says, crating's possibly not going to work here as he's going next to the tray. I really feel that the tray/s are the cause of the ittue here. I know it'sll sound daft, but that bath mat that he likes to poo on. Could you sacrifice that and put it in a tray for him? It'll mean it needs washing regularly, but if it saves your carpet, it might be worth it.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Nope, as CM says, crating's possibly not going to work here as he's going next to the tray. I really feel that the tray/s are the cause of the ittue here. I know it'sll sound daft, but that bath mat that he likes to poo on. Could you sacrifice that and put it in a tray for him? It'll mean it needs washing regularly, but if it saves your carpet, it might be worth it.


I can easily buy a couple to put in there, he won't associate my own bathmats for poo though will he? I had considered it but was a bit unsure. I think I might as well chuck the paper pellets and use that tray in a location more suited to Elsworth and put a bathmat in. They are only from Ikea so cheap enough thankfully. Good job I didn't end up with the expensive bathmats I originally wanted!!


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Has the vet checked him for constipation? Small bits of poo here & there plus the odd smear from scooting were the symptoms for Max. The poo wasn't completely dry but was very firm.


How do they check? When I mentioned it to the vet she had a feel, asked how many times a day he was going but didn't suggest he was.


----------



## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

oggers86 said:


> How do they check? When I mentioned it to the vet she had a feel, asked how many times a day he was going but didn't suggest he was.


If he is constipated they will probably feel faeces in his bowl when they palpate his tummy.


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

There is no guarantee that he won't associate your own mats with poo, but to be fair, he's doing it anyway, so you're not going to lose anything. May just be that you need to get into the habbit of closing the bathroom door or taking the mats up. My guys never go in the bathroom anyway and that works Ok here.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> There is no guarantee that he won't associate your own mats with poo, but to be fair, he's doing it anyway, so you're not going to lose anything. May just be that you need to get into the habbit of closing the bathroom door or taking the mats up. My guys never go in the bathroom anyway and that works Ok here.


True. The only mat down all the time is the one in the ensuite but as he eats in there he shouldn't in theory poo in there.

Definitely worth a shot anyway, now just a case of getting the mats, will get some a completely different colour (I think cats can see colours but just not as vibrant) so none of us get confused.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> If he is constipated they will probably feel faeces in his bowl when they palpate his tummy.


She did that and didn't feel anything in there.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

More poo this morning in the same place. Need to get more Simple Solution and give the area a good dosing. Will pick up a cheap soft bathmat at the same time and see how we get on. 

Definitely nothing to do with any factors I have been tracking now.


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Is it perhaps a case of "old habits die hard"? Maybe he needs more time to really believe there are now more trays available.

As you know my Daisy was using the bath mat too. I cleaned the bathroom floor and kept lifting the mat off the floor. On Saturday I decided to experiment and finally - after 6 or 7 weeks- put the mat down. No accidents. Daisy came into the bathroom a few times over the weekend and ignored the bath mat completely ... so far


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> Is it perhaps a case of "old habits die hard"? Maybe he needs more time to really believe there are now more trays available.
> 
> As you know my Daisy was using the bath mat too. I cleaned the bathroom floor and kept lifting the mat off the floor. On Saturday I decided to experiment and finally - after 6 or 7 weeks- put the mat down. No accidents. Daisy came into the bathroom a few times over the weekend and ignored the bath mat completely ... so far


Maybe, I don't really know, it doesn't seem to make any difference what litter it is or how many trays we have. Just come home to another poo in the same place but this time it was really soft but still in small pieces

I have now bought another tray and some small pet bedding to put in there so I am putting that directly on the spot he poos. I also bought a soft towel to put in a tray as well, hoping I have a spare tray but if not I might just cave and buy yet another cheap one. I am going to move them around slightly and put the Greencat in the office and give Elise her room back and then put the towel one downstairs. Everything else can stay put until after Christmas which will be a good 6 weeks from the addition of extra trays.

Am spraying the area with a good dose of simple solution to get rid of any scents.

I really really need to fix this, I am spending so much money on this at the minute but it can't continue long term or I will end up bankrupt!!


----------



## Ragdollsfriend (Feb 13, 2014)

Hey Oggers, I'm really sorry to hear this is still an ongoing issue. I have another wild guess to share. What if it's not actually the presence of a "factor" which is a root cause of this behaviour? What if it's lack of something? The girls go out and get some entertainment being out and about. Is Elsworth's life exciting enough? So what I'm trying to say is how about giving him extra attention and more interactive playtime over a period of time to see if this makes any difference. Cuddles and games  And it won't drain your budget :wink:


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Ragdollsfriend said:


> Hey Oggers, I'm really sorry to hear this is still an ongoing issue. I have another wild guess to share. What if it's not actually the presence of a "factor" which is a root cause of this behaviour? What if it's lack of something? The girls go out and get some entertainment being out and about. Is Elsworth's life exciting enough? So what I'm trying to say is how about giving him extra attention and more interactive playtime over a period of time to see if this makes any difference. Cuddles and games  And it won't drain your budget :wink:


He certainly isn't lacking in attention, at this very moment he is snuggled into my back. He is a very pampered little boy by the both of us 

Playing is something we could increase though, I need to buy his favourite flying frenzy attachment again when it comes back into stock.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

6 free poo days and counting!! He is still ignoring every litter/tray but the 2 clay ones and the Golden Pine although that is used every now and again unlike the clay which is used all the time. I did put a tray in the spot he has been using recently with shredded paper bedding but this has been ignored. Not sure what will happen if I remove it but it can't stay there forever as it is in the way of getting up and down the stairs.

As it doesn't appear to be an issue with the number of trays (all 3 cats use the clay tray in the kitchen the most) or the type of litter I am thinking of going back to 3 trays all filled with clay in January. 

Interestingly I have left the bathroom bath mat down accidentally for ages and it hasn't been pooed on.

I am having to reduce the pumpkin as it just makes his poo really soft so I will just do one teaspoon a day for maintenance. Even with soft poo he was still producing small pieces instead of one big one so that must be normal for him.

Despite my tracking I can not find any link so I have given up with the poo diary now. I have a month and a half of information to refer back to if necessary.

I just hope that one day he will stop for good!


----------



## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Interesting that since you've introduced pumpkin he's using the trays! Be careful not to make his poos too hard with the reduction in the pumpkin.


----------



## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

carly87 said:


> Interesting that since you've introduced pumpkin he's using the trays! Be careful not to make his poos too hard with the reduction in the pumpkin.


I am not convinced there is a link as we have been through many poo free periods before it starts up again, usually about a week, maybe 2 maximum but we shall see.


----------

