# Sticky  What to look for when getting a Pedigree Cat



## Tigermoon

There have been a number of threads lately, both here and on other social media sites from people buying their first pedigree and the difficulties they have faced.

We are all capable of making a mistake, but unlike when you buy a TV that breaks after a week (which is very annoying but you can usually get a replacement and no emotion is spent) when you involve a living being, which you fall in love with very quickly, it can result in utter devastation, and a huge financial and emotional cost. I should know, its happened to me twice, once when I was seeking my first pedigree and fell into the clutches of a BYB and once when I really should have known better ....

So I've started this thread because I'd like breeders and people who have bought pedigree cats to discuss the best way to find a reputable breeder, things to keep you eyes peeled for, and what specific questions you should ask.

The first thing that becomes obvious with a lot of people is they don't do enough research. However where do you start? If you are totally outside of 'The Cat Fancy' it can be impossible to know where to begin.
Breeders and those-in-the-know will tell you to approach the breed clubs or the registry. But when I started looking I'd never even heard of the GCCF, even though I'd read a number of books about cats. At the time I didn't have access to the internet, so I did what most people do, I looked in a paper and went to a breeder who was advertising in there. This was a mistake (see above).

In the UK there are four registries:
GCCF (Governing Council of the Cat Fancy) http://www.gccfcats.org/
TICA (The International Cat Association) http://www.tica-ew.org/
FIFE (Fédération Internationale Féline) http://www.felisbritannica.com/
CFA (Cat Fancy Association) http://cfaeurope.org/en

The GCCF is the only one based solely in the UK and is the most commonly used by UK breeders, the others are international registries, with TICA being the most commonly used of the three behind GCCF in the UK.
(_*NB Breeders*: Please could you comment and put links to registries within your own countries please_)

These registries will have links to help you find a breeder, a club for the breed you are interested in and have guidelines to help you select a breeder and chose a kitten.

Make sure you understand which health tests your chosen breed should have and ask your breeder for details of their cats status. Make sure you see proof, no reputable breeder will be offended if asked to show clearance certificates. In the UK Langfords are the most commonly used genetic testing service, this link shows you the breeds they have genetic tests for, just click on the breeds name and the tests available are listed.
http://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagn...eneral-info-breeders/genetic-diseases-and-cat
Some UK breeders will use other Labs, the other most often used is UC Davis, in the USA. https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/cat/

Other tests such as heart scans to check for HCM are done in a number of breeds. HCM is a complex disease, and the DNA test will not guarantee the cat is free from HCM, so beware of a breeder who claims it does. Note that heart scans must be performed by a specialist cardiologist not the local practice vet.

Make sure you understand what paperwork you should receive when you buy your kitten. As a minimum you should get a pedigree sheet (the family tree), and the vaccination card showing what vaccines were given and when. You should also receive the registration document. This is printed by the registration body and lists the kittens pedigree name, its parents, its date of birth and its registration number. While some breeders retain these until proof of neutering most will give these to you on collection of the kitten. This link will show you what the paperwork should look like https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/pedigree-papers.454267/

Lots of breeders also get their kittens microchipped so you should receive the paperwork for that too. Most breeders will give you a pack with details of worming, fleaing and feeding. It may be a little booklet or just a sheet of paper but it is important. Show it to your vet so they can put a note of the dates and products used on your kittens record. The kitten may or may not be neutered prior to you collecting him/her depending on the breeders practice.

Things to watch for when viewing kittens:
Dirty bottoms/eyes/noses/ears
Nervous kittens who don't relax and start to play after a few minutes of your arrival.
Nervous adult cats.
Dirty litter trays / feeding areas.
Excessively bad smells when a kitten/cat uses the litter tray.
Kittens/adults that don't want to be handled.
Breeders who are reluctant to show off their cats.
Kittens that are brought into the room from elsewhere (that you don't get to see)
Breeders that are keen to get a purchase that day.
Breeders who claim they health test but can't or won't show you the paperwork.
Breeders who avoid answering the question.


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## chillminx

Excellent post @Tigermoon.  I hope we can have it as a sticky.


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## urbantigers

If you are after a popular breed, be extra wary. Breed such as British Shorthair, Maine Coon, Persian, Bengal (not an exhaustive list) for example. These are the breeds that backyard breeders are likely to breed as they know there is a huge market out there for people who want these breeds and they also know that a large proportion of these potential buyers are after pets (as opposed to show cats), often first time buyers, and not always bothered, or educated about, what paperwork a breeder should provide, or what is the appropriate age for a kitten to go to his new home.

I'd advise anyone interested in a pedigree to go to a cat show, preferably a large cat show. That way you get to say multiple examples of the breed you're interested in and also get to chat to breeders.

Look at breed clubs. Most have kitten lists. Doesn't guarantee everything will be fine but it's a good starting point.

Don't pay a deposit to reserve a kitten until you have visited and viewed. You should see mum and kittens, and dad if the breeder owns the sire. Trust your gut instinct and if you're uncomfortable with anything, walk away.


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## lymorelynn

I have made this a sticky though, sadly, I think most people will have bought a kitten from somewhere, whether reputable or not, before they come on to a site like this.


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## vivien

lymorelynn said:


> I have made this a sticky though, sadly, I think most people will have bought a kitten from somewhere, whether reputable or not, before they come on to a site like this.


Thank you Lynn as you say. Some people may well have already bought a kitten before coming on here. This is what happened with me and my Bailey. But at the time I didn't know about this lovely forum. It was only because I was pouring my heart out on a Ragdoll site that the lovely chinablue introduced me to this forum after Bailey passed away. If it wasn't for her sending me lots of lovely photos of the litter of Ragdolls she had at the time I wouldn't of ever got a pedigree cat again. I also have to give great credit to catcoonz she was a great help when looking for my Maine Coon. Unfortunately poor Yogi got sick within a week of us getting him. But he is still here with us thank goodness. 
Thank you @Tigermoon for this brilliant thread. It will help people not make the mistake I made with Bailey.

Viv xx


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## Justyna.D

I wouldn't trust anybody who is willing to let kitten go earlier then 12-13 weeks old, without both vacc, insurance etc
Only proof that kitten is pedigree is paperwork


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## Justyna.D

I seen a lot of adverts of 'full pedigree' kittens but not registered - for numbers of reasons. Whatever 'breeder' tells you - most common reason why they not register kittens is because they can't - mum or dad is non active, they are close related, or simply not registered. The other reason could be to many litters. Queen can have no more then 3 litters in 2 years - it is important for her wellbeing.


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## OrientalSlave

urbantigers said:


> Breed such as British Shorthair, Maine Coon, Persian, Bengal (not an exhaustive list) for example


There are a huge number of ersatz 'ragdolls' around, but there are BYBs for any breed you care to mention.



Justyna.D said:


> Queen can have no more then 3 litters in 2 years - it is important for her wellbeing.


Some queens have no problem at all with 3 litters in 2 years, and there certainly isn't a GCCF rule about it.


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## Justyna.D

I'm sure I seen it on breeding policy, not sure if that was gccf - no more then 3 litters in 2 years and Queen older then 6 years should be retired


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## OrientalSlave

Justyna.D said:


> I'm sure I seen it on breeding policy, not sure if that was gccf - no more then 3 litters in 2 years and Queen older then 6 years should be retired


Not there anywhere I can find.


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## urbantigers

OrientalSlave said:


> There are a huge number of ersatz 'ragdolls' around, but there are BYBs for any breed you care to mention.


Indeed there are, sadly. But if a breed is not well known by the general public there is not much of a market for BYBs as not the same demand. I'd imagine BYBs would try to cash in on what is popular.


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## Justyna.D

OrientalSlave said:


> Not there anywhere I can find.


I can't find it now, that could be World Cat Federation, anyway we all know BYB's have as many litters as possible without thinking about cat wellbeing.


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## OrientalSlave

Justyna.D said:


> I can't find it now, that could be World Cat Federation, anyway we all know BYB's have as many litters as possible without thinking about cat wellbeing.


WCF is an umbrella organisation, not a registry.


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## Smuge

A very helpful list @Tigermoon thank you for posting

I am now at the very end of the process and am over the moon with my breeder, but the thing I found most difficult about finding a breeder was verifying anything they said, this was especially difficult as I am not part of the "local cat community." There is very little to stop a BYB saying they are tested, registered etc so I was keen to look into it more beyond simply being told everything was in order. I did eventually verify everything and in time got rave reviews, but it certainly took a fair bit of digging - im not sure that's something all buyers do. One thing that made me feel comfortable early on was that money was never an issue, she told me the price during the first phone call and money was never mentioned again until I emailed to double check the figure a few weeks ago - she wasn't even interested in a deposit, if she is just in it for a quick buck? she isn't very good at it lol

Another thing that I loved seeing but had never previously considered? The Breeder had cats from her line that were very clearly not used for breeding due to age/health (injury) etc, they were just loved pets - this is one thing I will definitely look for in the future as I think a breeder having cats that have nothing to do with breeding is a hugely positive sign

My kittens mum is a bit skittish around strangers and the kitten itself just pretty much just sat in our hands purring for the entire visit (around 8 weeks) so not a lot of playing etc but after a little while her sister spent the next hour exploring every corner of the room. I think ours (who we are already madly in love with - we slightly worry it borders on obsession  ) was just a bit shell shocked by being picked up and cuddled by giant strangers. I know this may fall under a couple of your flags (come to think of it the kittens were brought in from another room - she had 2 litters and rather a lot of kittens) but the stud, and other pets in the household were all super friendly and I absolutely believe the breeder when she says that the mum is just a lap cat who doesn't like strange humans much at first - I got the impression she was very much a favourite though.

I hope this thread helps other future cat parents find a great breeder  I found the process extremely stressful


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## Justyna.D

OrientalSlave said:


> WCF is an umbrella organisation, not a registry.


I know that  Like I said, I can't remember where it was


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## Tigermoon

Smuge said:


> Another thing that I loved seeing but had never previously considered? The Breeder had cats from her line that were very clearly not used for breeding due to age/health (injury) etc, they were just loved pets - this is one thing I will definitely look for in the future as I think a breeder having cats that have nothing to do with breeding is a hugely positive sign


Yes and no. I, like many other breeders will seek pet homes for my retirees as they are far happier in a home without calling queens, playful kittens and less feline crowding. Whereas some breeders do keep their retirees. I have noticed that the age of retirement can influence the way a breeder manages their feline family. For example I retire girls from breeding very young, at 3 or 4 years of age, whereas other breeders will retire at 8 or even 9 years of age. It wouldn't be practical for me to keep every retiree as I'd soon be well over 30 cats and personally I don't think that is good for health or well being, and I'm not sure how I'd give each cat individual time.

Having said that I do have two neutered cats here. One I bought as a pet, with no intention of breeding from her at all. I'd always fancied a Chinchilla Persian so eventually went and got one. The other is a retiree and I've kept her because I promised her breeder I would, even though to be honest I think she would be happier as an only cat.


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## QOTN

I always took the attitude that I loved my cats more than breeding. Sometimes for years I had very few kittens but that was preferable to outing my cats I loved. In the end it meant I gave up breeding and that was no bad thing either!.


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## Rose Vally

very helpful


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## JuliaRoberts

I must say, it really annoys me when I see an advert for a kitten which states that 'they will not be registered because we are selling them as pets only'. They are trying to hoodwink people. These days backyard breeders are selling their kittens for up to £500! They can't be trusted - they won't have put the work in that justifies selling at those prices. 

I agree with a previous poster who says that if the kittens are not registered then it's most likely because the parents are not on the active register.


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## OrientalSlave

JuliaRoberts said:


> <snip>
> I agree with a previous poster who says that if the kittens are not registered then it's most likely because the parents are not on the active register.


Or one of both of the parents are not registered. More money to register is another scam, at the most it's £23 for a GCCF kitten. if it's the only kitten in the litter (or the only one registered) and the breeder doesn't have a prefix.


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## SasMeg0762

Hi, I am new to the forum and looking at getting my first pedigree cat, but firstly doing all the research I can before hand.



OrientalSlave said:


> Or one of both of the parents are not registered. More money to register is another scam, at the most it's £23 for a GCCF kitten. if it's the only kitten in the litter (or the only one registered) and the breeder doesn't have a prefix.


For what reason would a breeder not have a prefix? Is this something temporary? What if they've been breeding for a number of years? How are cats/kittens registered? Would it be in the breeders name?

Sorry for all the questions


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## lymorelynn

SasMeg0762 said:


> Hi, I am new to the forum and looking at getting my first pedigree cat, but firstly doing all the research I can before hand.
> 
> For what reason would a breeder not have a prefix? Is this something temporary? What if they've been breeding for a number of years? How are cats/kittens registered? Would it be in the breeders name?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions


A breeder doesn't have to have a prefix no matter how long they have been breeding. The GCCF use an administrative prefix which changes each year. Sometimes a breeder may choose to use the admin. prefix rather than there own - maybe if they are branching out into a different breed.
The prefix is registered to the breeder's name and kittens then registered to that prefix. Both the prefix and the breeders name will be on the registration certificate


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## SasMeg0762

lymorelynn said:


> A breeder doesn't have to have a prefix no matter how long they have been breeding. The GCCF use an administrative prefix which changes each year. Sometimes a breeder may choose to use the admin. prefix rather than there own - maybe if they are branching out into a different breed.
> The prefix is registered to the breeder's name and kittens then registered to that prefix. Both the prefix and the breeders name will be on the registration certificate


Thank you


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## JuliaRoberts

Can I just run past all of you some things that are annoying me recently? I've been trying to get another cat now for a while. I have three lovely rag dolls. 

A few months ago I was going to buy a kitten from the same breeder we got our lovely boy from. Unfortunately the kittens were ill and she decided she couldn't sell them because they hadn't grown. I had already paid a deposit so she offered me a kitten from the next litter. Now that these kittens have been born she wants £200 more than I was going to pay for the original kitten (nearly £800) She said it's because these kittens have show potential but since they are only a few days old I don't see how she could know this yet? They do have a different queen mother. I did point out that this is more money than I can afford and she offered to drop the price by £100 which is still more than I was going to pay. The other thing is that she is advertising these kittens already even though the last litter became ill because they were visited too early. I have also discovered that they are not tested for HCM either. It's a shame because I love the cat we got from her (although he did have a few health problems and also had only had one vaccination so I had to pick up the tab for that too although that's another story...)

The other thing that I have encountered is breeders wanting a deposit for a kitten I have not yet seen because they are not yet old enough to view. Unless I know the breeder I don't want to pay for a kitten I haven't met and with a mother I haven't seen. Why can't the breeders begin to take deposits when the kittens are old enough to view? 

I have now found a breeder who I think ticks all the boxes and does things by the book. I.e., takes a deposit once the kitten has been viewed and doesnt let people see the kitten until first vaccination and health check is complete. There is also a sales agreement. Would you agree with me that the first two scenarios I described are less than desirable?


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## lymorelynn

Kittens shouldn't be reserved ie no deposit paid until they have been viewed unless there are exceptional circumstances. Personally I do allow viewings before vaccinations but many breeders do ask potential buyers to wait. You are right not to want to buy a kitten from your initial breeder and as she couldn't sell you the original kitten you should get your deposit back. Offering you a kitten from a different litter is not unusual but to ask you to pay more for it is unfair.


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## JuliaRoberts

Thanks Lyn. This is what I was thinking. I am inclined to think that because she has not been able to sell the original litter she is simply adding on the costs to subsequent litters. I also have to travel quite a way for this breeder. I thought that one of the reasons that you pay a lot of money for a pedigree is that all the relevant testing has been done and health checks etc.


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## Tigermoon

JuliaRoberts said:


> Now that these kittens have been born she wants £200 more than I was going to pay for the original kitten (nearly £800). The other thing is that she is advertising these kittens already even though the last litter became ill because they were visited too early. I have also discovered that they are not tested for HCM either. I am inclined to think that because she has not been able to sell the original litter she is simply adding on the costs to subsequent litters.
> The other thing that I have encountered is breeders wanting a deposit for a kitten I have not yet seen because they are not yet old enough to view. Why can't the breeders begin to take deposits when the kittens are old enough to view?
> Would you agree with me that the first two scenarios I described are less than desirable?


Yes those two scenarios would have me walking away and not looking back. This is why it is so important to do lots of research and speak to lots of breeders and the breed clubs so you can understand what is and isn't normal behaviour from breeders.


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## JuliaRoberts

I think that people (including me) need to realise that breeders who register their kittens are sometimes doing it for the money. I wrongly assumed that if someone is selling genuine pedigree kittens then they must be ok.

The scenario I mentioned is quite frustrating for me. I had bought a kitten from this breeder and he is registered with TICA. He is a beautiful cat and I liked the idea of having another kitten with the same parents so I paid a deposit on the agreement that the kitten was going to be £600 which is usual for a pet pedigree ragdoll. Then the kittens got sick and the breeder told me she was sorry but she wasn't happy to sell them because they hadn't grown. I said sure I understand. She then offered me a kitten from a new litter which was due in a month or so or she said I could have my deposit back. Stupidly (with hindsight) I said that's fine I'll wait. She sent me a picture of this cat (one of her new queens) when the kittens had been born. Then suddenly it seemed as though she wasn't sure whether she wanted me to have one of those kittens or one from the next litter which was another one of her new queens (either would have been fine but why couldn't she be clear?)

It seemed to me confusing that I didn't know what kitten I was being sold. I don't have a preference about colour - I love all ragdoll colours. She didn't say anything about me being able to visit them before collecting either, but I did notice that she is advertising them on pets 4 homes. Then, as I said before she suddenly told me she is now selling all her kittens from the new queens for £800 because they apparently have show potential. Even I know that at 1-3 weeks old you can't know if a particular kitten in litter has show or breeding potential and I would think some would and some wouldn't. I asked her if they had been tested for HCM and she didn't reply.

I feel quite hurt by the way I've been treated because I was a customer of hers before. Needless to say it seems that I'm going to have to write off that £100. I should have just said I wanted it back in the beginning. 

I feel that I don't trust this breeder now/ so I've found a breeder I do trust who has a solid reputation within the ragdoll community. 

Sorry for that long ramble but many people do think that if a breeder is registering their kittens they must be ok. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.


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## lymorelynn

JuliaRoberts said:


> many people do think that if a breeder is registering their kittens they must be ok. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case


You are quite right but you can make a complaint to the registering body


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## JuliaRoberts

Do you think under the circumstances I should? I am also not sure how TICA rules differ from GCCF (my other cats are GCCF)


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## lymorelynn

I don't know anything about TICA I'm afraid or what grounds for complaint you might have under their guidelines. Under GCCF Ragdolls used in breeding must be tested for HCM


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## JuliaRoberts

Yes with my other cats I was presented with the paperwork about genetic testing without even asking. 

It remains to be seen what illness the previous litter even had. She thought it was from visitors viewing too early. I think the love I have for my boy I got from there has clouded my judgment.


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## lymorelynn

It is a shame if you already have one cat from this breeder  I think you have been let down very badly and I can't understand why except for a case of greed


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## QOTN

lymorelynn said:


> I don't know anything about TICA I'm afraid or what grounds for complaint you might have under their guidelines. Under GCCF Ragdolls used in breeding must be tested for HCM


Yes, they must be tested since 2016 but those who are heterozygous or homozygous can still be bred from. They are registered on the Genetics Register rather than the Active.


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## JuliaRoberts

lymorelynn said:


> It is a shame if you already have one cat from this breeder  I think you have been let down very badly and I can't understand why except for a case of greed


It is a shame. I probably won't report her but I do feel disappointed. As I said the cat I bought from her is beautiful and adorable nature. He's still a young cat so it remains to be seen how healthy he is in the long term. I hope he will be ok because if anything happened to him I would be absolutely devastated. I think that's partly why I've tried to find a more transparent breeder now. This will be our last cat anyway now and I think I've made the right choice. I don't choose kittens based on 'trendy' colours - the most important thing is temperament and how they will fit with my other cats.


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## Guest

My Burmese I found through the Burmese cat club. Her owners had only the Mother & Father & it was her first litter. She lived in a warehouse apartment & all the cats / kittens were in the same room. I picked the prettiest  I did leave a deposit, but, was not asked to do so. Argentium my Maine Coon was purchased from the kitten lists on Maine coon cat club. I wanted a male black smoke. I waited months, then one came up in Devon near where my sis lives. She visited & was happy, so I paid the deposit. When I went to pick him up, she had neither the mother, nor the father. Both the other kittens which were brought in from outdoors had problems - one was polydactyl, one had a severely kinked tail. Within 2 days he was ill & at the vets. He was scanned at 5 months, he has HCM.
My son has 2 British shorthairs - Sodium & Helium. My next door neighbour drove to Birmingham & purchased 5 BSH kittens as she intended to start breeding them - all from the same litter. She brought them home the same day & one of them scratched her 2 year old son - big surprise there. She knocked on my door & asked me to find them homes! None of them have pedigree papers, she had been told they were 10 weeks old, I told her they were barely 5 & definitely not pedigree as they don't have papers. She saw a quick buck. Three went straight to Cats protection & were homed within a couple of days. Sodium & Helium had perpetual diahorrea which kept travelling from one to the other. It took 3 weeks to clear up & yes, you've guessed it, son fell in love with them.
They are blue colourpoints

Sodium


Helium

Sodium has Nystagmus - wobbly eyes, the vet says it is quite common in pointed cats with blue eyes. It doesn't seem to affect her at all


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## Smuge

Tali's breeder never even asked for or mentioned a deposit; from reading this forum I guess that is rare. She just didnt seem fussed, tho she doesnt even advertise and has plenty of demand so probably knew she would find a good home regardless.


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## JuliaRoberts

Franlow said:


> My Burmese I found through the Burmese cat club. Her owners had only the Mother & Father & it was her first litter. She lived in a warehouse apartment & all the cats / kittens were in the same room. I picked the prettiest  I did leave a deposit, but, was not asked to do so. Argentium my Maine Coon was purchased from the kitten lists on Maine coon cat club. I wanted a male black smoke. I waited months, then one came up in Devon near where my sis lives. She visited & was happy, so I paid the deposit. When I went to pick him up, she had neither the mother, nor the father. Both the other kittens which were brought in from outdoors had problems - one was polydactyl, one had a severely kinked tail. Within 2 days he was ill & at the vets. He was scanned at 5 months, he has HCM.
> My son has 2 British shorthairs - Sodium & Helium. My next door neighbour drove to Birmingham & purchased 5 BSH kittens as she intended to start breeding them - all from the same litter. She brought them home the same day & one of them scratched her 2 year old son - big surprise there. She knocked on my door & asked me to find them homes! None of them have pedigree papers, she had been told they were 10 weeks old, I told her they were barely 5 & definitely not pedigree as they don't have papers. She saw a quick buck. Three went straight to Cats protection & were homed within a couple of days. Sodium & Helium had perpetual diahorrea which kept travelling from one to the other. It took 3 weeks to clear up & yes, you've guessed it, son fell in love with them.
> They are blue colourpoints
> 
> Sodium
> 
> 
> Helium
> 
> Sodium has Nystagmus - wobbly eyes, the vet says it is quite common in pointed cats with blue eyes. It doesn't seem to affect her at all


What adorable cats.

Wrt a deposit then yes it makes sense that if someone is a sought after breeder they won't be worried about selling a kitten. The breeder I got one of our girls from is very good and doesn't insist on a deposit. She told me she was only going to let her active girl have one litter because she is not always based in the uk. It turns out that she has obviously changed her mind - if I'd known this I would have gone back to her! She also shows a lot of interests in her kittens and we keep in regular contact re: Ruby.


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## JuliaRoberts

I've just noticed that the original breeder has now dropped the price she is asking for the kittens by £100 (presumably because she's had no interest) So having said that she was going to drop the price by £100 'just for me', I assume she would now be expecting me to actually pay the same as everyone else even though the original kitten was going to be £600 and I couldn't have the one we chose because they were all poorly. I'm going to tell her I'm not going to buy this kitten and leave it at that. 

By the way, another question I wanted to ask was that another breeder (some time ago) told me that the next litter her queen was having would be nearly £100 more for each kitten than the last even though they hadn't been born yet and even though they had the same parents. I was a bit puzzled about this. Is there ever a legitimate reason why someone would do this?


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## QOTN

JuliaRoberts said:


> By the way, another question I wanted to ask was that another breeder (some time ago) told me that the next litter her queen was having would be nearly £100 more for each kitten than the last even though they hadn't been born yet and even though they had the same parents. I was a bit puzzled about this. Is there ever a legitimate reason why someone would do this?


I think all breeders assess their financial situation from time to time and it may be that her costs were not being covered by the previous price.


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## lymorelynn

The stud owner has put their price up, the vets fees have gone up. the food is costing more - so many things to factor in to the cost of raising a litter of kitten


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## JuliaRoberts

Thank you that does make sense. What if they suddenly drop the price? Does that happen often? I mean fairly quickly after they originally advertised at a set amount.

I think that obviously you expect vaccinations and relevant genetic testing to have been done because it's part of the costs isn't it.


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## JuliaRoberts

Hi - I just wanted to share that an advisor at GCCF told me a breeder does not have to test their cats for HCM if it is being sold as a pet only.


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## Justyna.D

Good breeder will test cats to make sure they have healthy kittens, not because they have to, they will do it because it is important for them


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## QOTN

JuliaRoberts said:


> Hi - I just wanted to share that an advisor at GCCF told me a breeder does not have to test their cats for HCM if it is being sold as a pet only.


What is a GCCF advisor? Do you mean you spoke to one of the office staff? There are only some breeds of cats that would be routinely tested for HCM such as those who have been identified as having a breed disposition and/or with a DNA test available. I am afraid you would have to look at the individual breed's registration policy to find out the recommendations. Sadly HCM is fairly common in all cats, both pedigree and non-pedigree, and is more likely to affect males.


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## Tigermoon

JuliaRoberts said:


> Hi - I just wanted to share that an advisor at GCCF told me a breeder does not have to test their cats for HCM if it is being sold as a pet only.


Breeders will only test breeding animals, that is why you should ask to see the clearance certificates of the kittens parents. As QOTN says, checking what is required of breeders by reading the registration policy will give you a pointer on whether a breeder is doing what they must in order to ensure the future health of their breed. Note that some breeders go above and beyond what the registration policy asks, while others just follow the policy to the letter. Anyone who isn't following the policy at all is best avoided. Bare in mind however that the breeding policies for each registration body differs and while GCCF has a number of restrictions on the type of breeding that can be done (down to what colour can be mated to another within a breed in some cases) this isn't the case with all of the registering bodies, for example TICA has few such restrictions.


----------



## Smuge

lymorelynn said:


> The stud owner has put their price up, the vets fees have gone up. the food is costing more - so many things to factor in to the cost of raising a litter of kitten


Tali's breeder was apologetic when we first (and pretty much only time) discussed price as she had recently had to put her price up. Kind of amused me as the price was less than I feared and if she and her line lived in another part of the country Tali would have probably have cost twice as much.

Its a shame (but understandable I guess) that location can have such an impact aswell


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## chillminx

Market forces are always at work in a capitalist society @Smuge.


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## Hestia

I have found that the best breeders don't act like they want to sell too readily. I felt that I had to go through hoops to get my hands on my Burmese kitten - and rightly so. Who can't find a little blue bundle of fluff adorable? The breeder saw how I was with the adult cats first and when I saw the house 'matriarch' and said that she was just what I wanted in a cat, we were allowed to see the kittens. She has been with me 16 years now. All of our cats have been home visited with the mother (and once even the father) and there has been as much checking out of our lifestyle, where we live, what we understand about security and care, vets, insurance, etc as we have asked about the kitten. All have come with the extended kitten insurance for health and vet cover. All have come fully vaccinated and full of fun and bounce. We've not always been lucky: our Bengal had a few temperament issues, but they were his own nature as we discovered, rather than being an issue with the breeder or his early life and treatment (frankly he was bonkers and territorial but he grew to trust us completely). Our lovely Snowshoe boy (my avatar) developed a desperately aggressive cancer but was the sweetest natured cat ever. So you can never guarantee that even the most careful choice of a beautiful healthy cat is going to work out perfectly. On Maine Coons, three years ago we searched for a companion for our newly bereft Burmese who was destroying our house in frustration and we did not go in search of a Maine Coon. But one found us via a rehoming service and, being honest, we were selected for him rather than us doing the choosing! But so many people are told that they have Maine Coons when really it's a cross bred big cat, so much so that when we took him to the vet for his registration check-up and told the nurses that we had a Maine Coon there was a bit of scepticism. Then one of them looked in the carrier: "That's a REAL Maine Coon!" and everyone came to have a look.


----------



## Tigermoon

Hestia said:


> But so many people are told that they have Maine Coons when really it's a cross bred big cat, so much so that when we took him to the vet for his registration check-up and told the nurses that we had a Maine Coon there was a bit of scepticism. Then one of them looked in the carrier: "That's a REAL Maine Coon!" and everyone came to have a look.


Unfortunately this is the trouble when you have natural looking pedigree breeds, some people immediately try to pass off their moggies as these breeds and ask more money for them accordingly. Maine Coon and bizarrely Persian (kittens were claimed to be dollfaced) were the automatically the 'go to' breed for people selling moggies but I've noticed that the Siberian has been dragged into the fray now, as they have become more popular.


----------



## Devonkitty

We are presently going through getting two pedigreed kittens ( Cornish Rex), we first went to the breeder who bred our recently deceased 12-year-old Cornish Rex, all of her litters were already taken, we went through the Rex Cat Association breeders list. I have seen several kittens listed in an online pet for sale forums but I'm leery of taking one from breeders who aren't registered with a cat society ( do they know what they are doing genetically, do they have ethics or is it a scam). Due to the scarcity of the breed we paid a deposit of £100 to hold the two kittens, we chose two particular kittens. In the past, I normally went to the breeder and chose kittens based on which one seemed to want to be with me. This breeder is a good 3-hour drive away so everything was done online. I think we will go visit the breeder before picking up the kittens at 13 weeks.


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## Hestia

A deposit isn't unusual. I paid £150 for my Snowshoe and £100 for my Burmese (deposits only) some years ago.


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## bobsy852

We have a pedigree Norwegian Forest cat. She has just turned three years old and we haven't had her spayed yet as we were/are keen to breed her before doing so. 
We're keen to do this as officially and responsibly as possible. I have just applied to join the Norwegian Forest Cat club (NFCC) (I've had an application form since we got Annikka as a kitten but haven't thought of applying until now). 
However, I was lead to believe that we won't be able to list any kittens from Annikka as pedigree as she isn't listed as a breeding cat. I never understood this, and wondered how it would be possible to register her as a breeding pedigree cat? 
This is a question I plan to put to the NFCC also but I'm awaiting confirmation of my membership so thought I'd ask on here for now

Thanks,
Rob


----------



## lymorelynn

bobsy852 said:


> We have a pedigree Norwegian Forest cat. She has just turned three years old and we haven't had her spayed yet as we were/are keen to breed her before doing so.
> We're keen to do this as officially and responsibly as possible. I have just applied to join the Norwegian Forest Cat club (NFCC) (I've had an application form since we got Annikka as a kitten but haven't thought of applying until now).
> However, I was lead to believe that we won't be able to list any kittens from Annikka as pedigree as she isn't listed as a breeding cat. I never understood this, and wondered how it would be possible to register her as a breeding pedigree cat?
> This is a question I plan to put to the NFCC also but I'm awaiting confirmation of my membership so thought I'd ask on here for now
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob


You would need to have asked her breeder at the time for her to be registered for breeding. If you want to breed it really is best to be upfront with the person you are looking at getting a kitten from and if it wasn't mentioned when you got Annikka I doubt that her breeder would be very receptive about changing her registration now. To breed from her without that permission would make you a back yard breeder and it would be unlikely that you would find anyone who would allow you to use their stud. 
My best advice would be to have Annikka spayed and if you are serious about breeding start talking to other breeders within the NFCC or at cat shows. They will want to see your dedication to the breed not just having a girl to have one litter


----------



## bobsy852

lymorelynn said:


> You would need to have asked her breeder at the time for her to be registered for breeding. If you want to breed it really is best to be upfront with the person you are looking at getting a kitten from and if it wasn't mentioned when you got Annikka I doubt that her breeder would be very receptive about changing her registration now. To breed from her without that permission would make you a back yard breeder and it would be unlikely that you would find anyone who would allow you to use their stud.
> My best advice would be to have Annikka spayed and if you are serious about breeding start talking to other breeders within the NFCC or at cat shows. They will want to see your dedication to the breed not just having a girl to have one litter


Thanks for the reply lymorelynn.
I was lead to believe that would be the case.

We feel Annikka would make a great mother to some kittens though, pedigree or not, and we feel bad spaying her without giving her that opportunity. 
I'm going to presume that nobody here would advise we became a "backyard breeder," and I imagine finding a decent, well cared for male stud cat would be no easy feat. So perhaps getting her spayed will be the best option. I'll discuss it with my partner as we feel upset that Annikka continues to sound so uncomfortable in her heat cycles we're keen to do something soon.


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## QOTN

bobsy852 said:


> Thanks for the reply lymorelynn.
> I was lead to believe that would be the case.
> 
> We feel Annikka would make a great mother to some kittens though, pedigree or not, and we feel bad spaying her without giving her that opportunity.
> I'm going to presume that nobody here would advise we became a "backyard breeder," and I imagine finding a decent, well cared for male stud cat would be no easy feat. So perhaps getting her spayed will be the best option. I'll discuss it with my partner as we feel upset that Annikka continues to sound so uncomfortable in her heat cycles we're keen to do something soon.


The best thing you can do for your girl is to get her spayed as soon as possible. The more calls she has the greater the risk of pyometra and the older she is before she is spayed, the greater the risk of mammary tumours. She really is too old for a first litter now anyway. Most queens that age are coming to the end of their breeding career.


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## Hestia

She is a little mature now for her first litter, but I don't want to discourage you long term as everyone has to start somewhere. Cats don't feel any great maternal instinct until they have a bundle of fluff suddenly appear and then they - mostly - have an urge to care for it. It's not a given that a cat will look after her kittens well, or even be able to. The noises that you are hearing aren't an urge to have kittens and it's probably driving unneutered males mad for miles around! My sister had a pedigree pet cat and was in the same situation as you. Firstly, check on your purchase agreement because it is possible you signed it to say that you would not breed from her. My sister contacted the breeder of her cat and said that she wanted to let her cat have some kittens but understood that they would not be registered kittens. As it was, the breeder had a very inexperienced (and unrelated) boy that wasn't getting it on with the ladies and she wondered if he would respond to my sister's cat. He did, the two kittens were unregistered and had no pedigree certificates, rehomed to friends in caring homes, the boy went on to provide services to registered pedigree ladies and everyone was happy. My best advice would be to get to know a bit more about breeding and work with a breeder, maybe someone with a stud boy, who can advise you. A kitten for breeding is generally more expensive and she will need a couple of additional vaccinations generally, as well as potentially a few more tests for some specific breeds to show that she is free of breed-related conditions. It might also help to show her a few times to get some feedback on how she looks and her good points: a kitten with a 'certificated' mother can be an attractive option for new owners. Lastly, you need to be comfortable with the idea that you will be out of pocket after visits to the vet, registrations, micro-chipping, food, vaccinations, showing and everything else included...


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## Tigermoon

bobsy852 said:


> I'm going to presume that nobody here would advise we became a "backyard breeder," and I imagine finding a decent, well cared for male stud cat would be no easy feat. So perhaps getting her spayed will be the best option.


Yes getting her spayed is the right thing to do in this case. I would suggest that if you are keen to go into breeding that you approach Annikka's breeder and explain that you would like to start breeding and would they be prepared to help and mentor you. You absolutely _must _have a mentor when you start out. I personally think that all breeders should show, particularly when starting out, otherwise you will never understand type. Breeding isn't about fluffy kittens, it's about breeding kittens to meet a strict standard of points. Research which tests your breed is subject to. Setting aside an £1000 emergency fund is also a good idea. Breeding pedigree cats properly, ethically and responsibly is expensive and not for the faint hearted.


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## lymorelynn

*Information provided by @OrientalSlave 
Why buy a Registered Pedigree Kitten?*

A registered kitten will be bred from two parents who are on the active register, and the female will be registered as owned by the breeder. It should be at least 13 weeks old, fully vaccinated, and ready to leave its breeder. Additionally the GCCF will not register kittens where the parents are from very close matings, and if there are required health tests for the breed the parents must have had them. Note that there are additional health tests for some breeds which whilst advisable are not required by the GCCF.

In contrast BYBs are often breeding from at least one unregistered cat, or cat registered non-active. Most kittens are placed on the non-active register in the expectation that they will be neutered, and have been brought as pets only. Obviously people breeding from these kittens have fibbed when they brought them.

BYBs may well offer a fake pedigree, and they love selling 8-week old kittens as most of the cost of rearing a kitten is after that age. At 8 weeks the kitten has not been vaccinated, may well not have been wormed, and is only just weaning. Between 8 & 13 weeks old most kittens are eating as much as an adult, use as much cat litter as an adult, and the female can be mated again PDQ.

If you add up all these costs, an unregistered 8-week old kitten for £350 will end up costing as much as a registered 13-week old kitten, more if it becomes unwell.

*So how do I know my kitten is a registered pedigree?*

As mentioned many times on Pet Forums, a registered pedigree kitten will come with 'papers'. However, what do those papers look like? What should you receive with a registered kitten?
*
GCCF*

The GCCF is the main registry in the UK, and the bare minimum you should receive with a GCCF registered kitten are:

A signed pedigree showing at least three generations of cats with their registration and breed numbers, and the breeders name and address. Commonly the fourth generation has the breed numbers only due to space constraints when printing on A4;
The kitten's registration card, which contains the information you need to transfer the cat or kitten into your name;
The kitten's vaccination record - the second vaccination should have been given at least a week before you collect your kitten.
If the kitten is already microchipped one of the bar-code labels should be stuck to the vaccination card.

Hopefully you will also receive:


A receipt;
Details of worming and any flea treatment (not all kittens get flea treatment);
Details of a few weeks free insurance;
Care instructions;
A toy or two;
Some food the kitten is used to eating;
A comfort blanket.
Whilst the GCCF rules do allow for kittens younger than 13 weeks and/or unvaccinated kittens to be sold there is never a good reason for the average pet buyer to buy such a kitten.

*Red Flags*

Charging extra to register a kitten;
Allowing any kitten to be registered active for a bigger price;
Saying kittens sold as pets don't need to be registered;
Bringing the kitten from somewhere else in the house for you to see;
Not allowing you to visit;
Not allowing you to see the kitten with mother and litter mates;
Any sign of illness in any of the kittens;
Litter trays and food dishes should be clean;
Handing an unseen kitten over in a car park or similar.
*What if I can't afford a registered kitten?*

There is no denying a registered kitten will cost several hundred pounds. However, as pointed out above, a young BYB kitten can easily cost just as much (or more) after the expenses of a few weeks ownership, and remember that vet bills can easily exceed the cost of a registered kitten.

Additionally buying a pet shouldn't be a spur of the moment thing, giving you time to save up both for the kitten and for a vet fund.

However if you don't want to spend £500 or more but want a cat of a specific breed, consider the breed rescues. Most GCCF breed clubs run rescues which rehome a variety of cats, including those whose owners have passed on and former breeding cats who will be much happier in a home on their own, or with a companion instead of lots of companions. These cats will not be free but where they go from home to home rather than via a rescue pen you may only have to pay the cost of neutering, possibly vaccinations, and a donation to the rescue.

*More Information*

Some other sources of information are:

The PetForums 'finding a pedigree cat' thread at https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/finding-a-pedigree-cat.447723/;
The GCCF Registration policy for the breed. These vary from very simple to very complicated but the important bit is any required health testing. You will find a link if you click on the photo of the breed from their Cat Breeds page, https://www.gccfcats.org/Cat-Breeds;
GCCF Affiliated Breed Clubs, found in the same way as the Registration Policy. These an help with finding breeders and with finding breed rescues;
The GCCF Suspension list at https://www.gccfcats.org/About-GCCF/Suspension-List.


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## lymorelynn

If someone would like to provide the same sort of information for a TICA registered kitten I will add that too.


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## lymorelynn

A link, provided [email protected] for kittens registered with Felis Brittanica. Hopefully she will be able to provide an example of the paperwork too
This is the link to information provided by Felis Brittanica (FIFe UK) on buying Kittens. http://www.felis-britannica.org.uk/...4/Pedigree-Kitten-Buyers-Guide-April-2017.pdf


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## OrientalSlave

JuliaRoberts said:


> Hi - I just wanted to share that an advisor at GCCF told me a breeder does not have to test their cats for HCM if it is being sold as a pet only.


No, but the parents must be DNA tested if registered for breeding from the 24th Feb 2016:
https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Ragdoll.RegPol.24Feb16.pdf

Cats that test clear can still develop HCM but this must help.


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## QOTN

OrientalSlave said:


> No, but the parents must be DNA tested if registered for breeding from the 24th Feb 2016:
> https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Ragdoll.RegPol.24Feb16.pdf
> Cats that test clear can still develop HCM but this must help.


Although any ragdoll registered for breeding must be tested, any heterozygous or even homozygous cats will simply be registered on the genetic register and may still be used for breeding. It does not seem very different from the situation which prevailed previously. Responsible breeders will not breed from affected cats and the rest will carry on regardless. How many pet owners would know the difference between the Active and Genetic registers? They don't usually even look at registration numbers.


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## Psygon

Out of interest what do breeders think about potential new owners who (for want of a better word) shop around? 

I'm possibly in a situation where we want to visit two different kittens... And I'm feeling guilty about talking to two different (lovely!) breeders!


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## chillminx

I visited 5 different breeders in different parts of the country when I was looking for my two BSH kittens 20 years ago. It never occurred to me any of the breeders would mind. I did mention to some breeders I had been looking at other kittens.

However once I'd decided on which breeder I liked I asked to be put on her waiting list for a male and female silver. When her silver spotted queen had her litter I visited twice to see the kittens and chose the two I liked, before bringing them home at age of 13 weeks. I suppose I could have looked at another breeder's kittens during that period (I had not at that stage paid any deposit) but it didn't arise because I'd decided I wanted kittens from that specific breeder. None of the other breeders I visited were anywhere near a match for her in terms of how the kittens were being raised and her kittens were bonny, healthy, and super confident.


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## Psygon

Thanks @chillminx that's put my mind at rest a bit. I've spoken to the two breeders, seen one at a show but so far not visited - and I'm trying to arrange a visit to both. Maybe I am just the anxious type but I was worried about wasting people's time if I decide on one of the kittens and not the other.

When we got our tonks we only visited one breeder, they were local and generally just brilliant. So this is a new experience for us - and we contacted a few breeders in our search and have been talking to all of them on and off for a few months!


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## chillminx

If you are at the stage where you have only spoken to the two breeders and not yet visited either, I think it is perfectly fine to go and visit both breeders. I found that seeing the set up in the home was a hugely influencing factor for me.

If you really like the whole set-up when you visit the first breeder and you fall in love with her kittens, you may decide it's not necessary to visit the 2nd breeder, and instead decide there and then you'd like a kitten from the first breeder.

I suppose there is always the risk if you like the first breeder and love her kittens, and you walk away that you may lose the chance of having a kitten from the first breeder. Because some one else might come along right after you, and say "yes" straight away. But if everything doesn't feel completely right to you, then I imagine you wouldn't want to say "yes" anyway.


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## Psygon

Again @chillminx thank you!!!

I want to visit both breeders as this will be a huge factor for me and my OH. We've spoken about it a little after visiting a kitten earlier this year that we walked away from.

So thank you again.. making me more confident we are doing it right!


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## lymorelynn

Most breeders will ask that you don't visit more than one on the same day but would perhaps expect a potential kitten buyer to be looking in more than one place.


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## Psygon

Back with another question... kittens that are healthy, happy, running about and causing havoc - but who have diarrhoea (and third eyelid showing - as did a couple of the adults). Should we be concerned or not?


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## OrientalSlave

short answer is yes


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## Psygon

My head was telling me that... but I was hoping I was being overly cautious...


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## QOTN

The breeder should not have invited you to visit if there was illness in the house.


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## Psygon

QOTN said:


> The breeder should not have invited you to visit if there was illness in the house.


I did wonder, but she said that it initially started after the elder cats got jabs. But some of the adults definitely had a third eyelid showing... which made me think they were under the weather too. She was totally honest and said they'd been unwell...

In all other respects they were seemingly healthy and happy. The little-est kittens were going mad jumping on each other etc..


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## chillminx

Alarm bells would ring for me. I agree with the others.....walk away@Psygon.


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## Psygon

I suppose was expecting this response. The cats and the breeder are lovely, I was hoping I was being/feeling overly cautious


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## chillminx

I agree with QOTN, it makes no sense to invite prospective kitten buyers to visit when there is evident sickness amongst her adults and kittens. So that would make me very uneasy.


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## Psygon

I do think she had invited me before the illness showed up. We arranged it last weekend and my understanding was it only started within the last day or so (tho not sure). She also said the vets had not been concerned, and said they didn't need antibiotics.

I also saw the adults last week and they were fine then (they were at a show).

But appreciate you guys are more knowledgeable than me on this, so thank you for all the responses!


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## Tigermoon

Psygon said:


> I also saw the adults last week and they were fine then (they were at a show)


It isn't unheard of for cats to pick up a virus at a show, in fact I think it happens more often than is admitted. It is one of the reasons that my kittens do not mix with any other cat other than their mother.


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## Psygon

Tigermoon said:


> It isn't unheard of for cats to pick up a virus at a show, in fact I think it happens more often than is admitted. It is one of the reasons that my kittens do not mix with any other cat other than their mother.


The kittens we saw have only interacted with their mum - not been exposed to the household. Also mum was fine, and only one of the litter we went to see had diarrhea. She was also the littlest, at 7 weeks she was easily 2/3 the size of her siblings (and the most nutty of the lot - great little feisty character).

Breeder has been great with our concerns (and sharing info from her vet). We're waiting for when they go for first jabs and vet will decide if they are healthy for that...


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## OrientalSlave

Sometimes kittens are unwell if the mother comes into call when they are still substantially feeding from her, it does clear up and they are fine a few days later.


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## QOTN

Psygon said:


> The kittens we saw have only interacted with their mum - not been exposed to the household. Also mum was fine, and only one of the litter we went to see had diarrhea. She was also the littlest, at 7 weeks she was easily 2/3 the size of her siblings (and the most nutty of the lot - great little feisty character).
> 
> Breeder has been great with our concerns (and sharing info from her vet). We're waiting for when they go for first jabs and vet will decide if they are healthy for that...


I would never suggest that kittens never get diarrhoea. It can happen at any time when they are being weaned and even if they carry on suckling past the 'normal' age. It does not have to be infectious but I would postpone the visit in those circumstances.


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## Rufus15

In the UK, there are four registries: the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy (GCCF), The International Cat Association (TICA), Felis Britannica (a UK branch of Fédération Internationale Féline or FIFe), and the Cat Fancy Association (CFA). GCCF is a UK only registry, TICA, FIFe and CFA are international.

This thread aims to highlight different aspects of each association, including which breeds each registry recognises, how breeders obtain a cattery name, links to available clubs within each registry, and links to show calendars with a brief overview of how showing works within each registry.

*Registration conditions for all registries
*
In order for kittens to be registered with any registry, the parents must be on the _Active Register _with permission from the parents' breeders to produce offspring. Parents are placed on the _Active Register _if they themselves come from _Active Register _parents only. Kittens on the _Non-Active Register _are not meant to be bred from, and their offspring cannot be registered. It is extremely important that buyers check the registration documents of parent cats for _Active _status.

Buyers should receive card issued by the relevant registry with their kitten's name on it, parentage, breeder's details, colour, and registration number. Buyers can then transfer the kitten into their name should they wish. See this thread for examples of pedigree papers.
_
NB: A family tree or genealogy is not proof of a registered pedigree, the only proof is a registry issued document.
_
All registries recommend that kittens should be rehomed at a minimum of 13 weeks, after the second lot of vaccinations. Rehoming at this age allows the kitten crucial socialisation time with its mother and siblings. *This is recommended for all kittens, not just pedigrees*.

Please also note, vets cannot register kittens with a registry. Only the breeder that is the registered owner of the dam can register kittens, either with their own cattery prefix or suffix purchased from the registry, or with an administration prefix (GCCF and FIFe only).

*GCCF
*
As mentioned previously, this is a UK only registry and is often (but not always) the preferred registry for UK breeders.

*
Recognised Breeds
*
GCCF has the fewest number of recognised breeds of all the registries, at just 39 breeds. Recognised breeds under GCCF are:

Abyssinian
Asian
Australian Mist
Aztec
Balinese
Bengal
Birman

British Shorthair (incl. Longhair)
Burmese
Chartreux
Cornish Rex
Devon Rex
Egyptian Mau
Exotic Shorthair
Korat
La Perm
Maine Coon
Manx
Nebelung
Norwegian Forest Cat
Ocicat
Oriental
Persian
RagaMuffin
Ragdoll
Russian
Selkirk Rex
Siamese
Siberian
Singpura
Snowshoe
Sokoke
Somali
Sphynx
Suffolk
Thai
Toyger
Tonkinese
Turkish Van and Vankedisi
More details on each breed can be found here.

*Breeding in GCCF
*
In order to purchase a cattery name in GCCF, one must generally be a member of a GCCF-affliated club for at least 12 months. There are some clubs that are an exception to this. The club secretary then signs off on the prefix application. GCCF also has the option of using an administration prefix, which changes every year. Only kittens from _Active Register_ matings can be registered.
*
Clubs in GCCF
*
Clubs represent breeders and owners of cats registered under GCCF and, much like an MP, will take issues raised within the club to the Committee for debate. An individual can join as many clubs as they wish, and one can be either a breeder, an owner, or an interested party in the breed, live in the general area of the club, or indeed live nowhere near and just like the ethos of the club. Most clubs hold an annual show, some are All Breed shows (so all breeds are accepted) and are Breed shows (so only a specific breed is accepted). All GCCF shows also have a section for Household Pets; that is moggies, cats of known pedigree, or cats of pedigree appearance.

A list of GCCF affiliated clubs can be found here.

*Showing with GCCF
*
Unlike other registries, GCCF shows are held on a single day, either a Saturday or a Sunday. They are spread across the whole of the UK, and there are often more than one on any given weekend. The GCCF show calendar can be found here.

GCCF shows are pen-judged, the only exception to this is the Supreme, which is the biggest show of the GCCF calendar.

Anyone with a cat can show with GCCF: cats registered with GCCF from birth, cats imported into GCCF from other registries, even moggies! Cats must be registered with (or imported into) GCCF to show in the pedigree section.

Moggies of all kinds can be shown in the Household Pet section, which is divided into Household Pet and Pedigree Pet. In order to claim titles in the Household Pet section cats must be registered as a Household Pet, which can be easily done through GCCF's website.

Titles go in the following order, Champion is for entire cats in breeding programmes, Premier is for neutered pedigrees, and Master Cat is for Household Pet & Pedigree Pet:

Champion / Premier / Master Cat
Grand Champion / Grand Premier / Grand Master Cat
Imperial Grand Champion / Imperial Grand Premier / Imperial Grand Master Cat
Olympian Bronze Imperial Grand Champion / Olympian Bronze Imperial Grand Premier / Olympian Bronze Imperial Grand Master Cat
Olympian Silver Imperial Grand Champion / Olympian Silver Imperial Grand Premier / Olympian Silver Imperial Grand Master Cat

Olympian Gold Imperial Grand Champion / Olympian Gold Imperial Grand Premier / Olympian Gold Imperial Grand Master Cat
Titles are gained by collecting a set amount of certificates per title across different shows. Reports are issued within the 28 days following a show, giving a judge's feedback on the cats they judged.

All pens are dressed with 'show whites', and the show is closed to exhibitors and the public between 10am - 12:30pm (or 1pm depending on the show), to ensure safe judging and anonymity for the main Open and Title classes.

Shows vary in cost, but generally a basic show entry will include penning, a main class, the best of breed, and two side classes. One can expect an entry for a single cat in a single pen, with a catalogue, to be around £50. This price includes any rosettes or prize cards you might win.

*TICA*

TICA is currently the world's largest registry of pedigree cats, and its headquarters are in Texas, USA.

*Recognised breeds*

TICA currently recognises 71 different breeds, more information can be found on each breed here. Championship breeds in TICA are as follows:

Abyssinian
American Bobtail (longhair and shorthair)

American Curl (longhair and shorthair)

American Shorthair

American Wirehair

Australian Mist

Balinese

Bengal (longhair and shorthair)

Birman

Bombay

British Shorthair (incl. British Longhair)

Burmese

Burmilla (longhair and shorthair)

Chartreux

Chausie

Cornish Rex

Cymric

Devon Rex

Donskoy

Egyptian Mau

Exotic Shorthair

Havana

Himalayan

Japanese Bobtail (longhair and shorthair)

Khaomanee

Korat

Kurilian Bobtail (longhair and shorthair)

La Perm (incl shorthair)

Maine Coon (including polydactyl)

Manx

Minuet (incl longhair)

Munchkin (incl longhair)

Nebelung

Norwegian Forest Cat

Ocicat

Oriental (longhair and shorthair)

Persian

Peterbald

Pixiebob (incl longhair)

RagaMuffin

Ragdoll

Russian Blue

Savannah

Scottish Fold (incl longhair)

Scottish Straight (incl longhair)

Selkirk Rex (incl longhair)

Siamese

Siberian

Singpura

Snowshoe

Somali

Sphynx

Thai

Toyger

Tonkinese

Turkish Angora

Turkish Van
*
Breeding with TICA*

Prefixes or suffixes can be purchased from TICA via their website. Breeders must have purchased a prefix or suffix in order to register kittens, and kittens can only be registered from _Active Register _matings.

*Clubs in TICA*

Similarly to GCCF, some clubs under TICA run cat an annual show per club throughout the year. Unlike GCCF, TICA club members generally have a role in running the club, membership of clubs is not an open invitation. A list of clubs in the UK can be found here, blue listed clubs are show-holders.

*Showing with TICA*

The TICA calendar can be found here. The calendar lists events held across the world under TICA, but a simple Ctrl + F and typing in UK will help identify UK shows.

TICA shows are ring judged, and each show has its own number of rings. This means that cats are taken up to the ring when their classes are called, and are judged with the public being able to view and hear feedback. Exhibitors can either purchase their own show pen, or hire one at the show. Each TICA show has breed sections for pedigrees, and a section for Household Pet. Cats must be registered with TICA to gain titles, but can enter one show as a means to try it out.

Titles in TICA are split between Champion for breeding pedigree cats, Alter for neutered pedigree cats, and Master for Household Pets:


Champion / Alter / Master
Grand Champion / Grand Alter / Grand Master

Double Grand Champion / Double Grand Alter / Double Grand Master

Triple Grand Champion / Triple Grand Alter / Triple Grand Master

Quadruple Grand Champion / Quadruple Grand Alter / Quadruple Grand Master

Supreme Grand Champion / Supreme Grand Alter / Supreme Grand Master

Shows under TICA will typically be two or three days in length, with a set number of rings on each day. Points are awarded in each ring, and titles are gained when a cat gains the appropriate amount of points.

TICA shows typically cost around £50 per day which includes all rings and resulting rosettes. TICA exhibitors typically provide their own penning, but pens can be hired at the show if necessary.

More information on showing with TICA can be found here.


*FIFe*

FIFe, or Fédération Internationale Féline, is a predominantly European cat registry body, with members from 40 different countries including members from the Middle East, the Americas, and Asia. Felis Britannica is a UK-based organisation which represents a federation of cat clubs across the UK, all of whom are a part of FIFe.

*Recognised breeds*

FIFe currently recognises 48 different breeds, these are:

Abyssinian
American Curl (longhair & shorthair)
Balinese
Bengal
British Shorthair 
British Longhair
Burmilla
Burmese
Chartreux
Cornish Rex
Cymric
Devon Rex
Don Sphynx
Egyptian Mau
European
Exotic
German Rex
Japanese Bobtail 
Kurilian Bobtail (longhair & shorthair)
Korat
LaPerm (longhair & shorthair)
Maine Coon
Manx
Neva Masquerade 
Norwegian Forest Cat
Ocicat
Oriental Longhair
Oriental Shorthair
Persian
Peterbald
Ragdoll
Russian Blue
Sacred Birman
Selkirk Rex (longhair & shorthair)
Siamese
Siberian
Singapura
Snowshoe
Sokoke
Somali
Sphynx
Thai
Turkish Angora
Turkish Van
More information on recognised breeds can be found here.

*Breeding with FIFe
*
In order to gain a cattery name under FIFe, breeders must be members of the member organisation of their home country. In the UK, breeders must apply to Felis Britannica. In order to apply through Felis Britannica, breeders must be a full member of a club belonging to Felis Britannica. Kittens can also be registered under an administration prefix if the breeder does not yet have a cattery name.

Similarly to the previous registries, only kittens from _Active Register _parents can be registered.

More information on registering under Felis Britannica can be found here.

*Clubs in FIFe
*
There are three recognised clubs under FIFe, the Viking Cat Club, the Garden of England club, and The Scottish Cat Association. Each club is all breed, so all breeds recognised under FIFe are accepted into the clubs.

Clubs affiliated with Felis Britannica can be found here.

*Showing with FIFe
*
Shows are held by the three clubs throughout the year and at various different locations throughout the UK. The show calendar can be found here.

FIFe shows are ring judged, and exhibitors are required to take their cats to the appropriate ring for judging when called. Exhibitors and the public are able to hear feedback as the cats are judged, and shows have sections for all recognised breeds. In order to claim titles, cats must be registered with FIFe.

Titles are given to breeding and neutered cats only, household pets do not gain titles under FIFe. Titles for breeding cats are Champion, and titles for neuters are Premier. The title levels are:

Champion / Premier
International Champion / International Premier
Grand International Champion / Grand International Premier
Supreme Champion / Supreme Premier
FIFe shows typically run across two days. Titles are obtained by gaining certificates at each level, where only one certificate can be issued per winning cat per day. If three certificates are needed, cats are required to enter three different days. If a cat needs one certificate and gains it on the first day, they can be upgraded to the next title class for the second day.

_Note: GCCF cats can be shown under FIFe, more information can be found on the link given below. _

Shows are approximately £60 standard fee for two days, with an early bird option. This includes a metal pen, a catalogue on show day, and a single exhibitor admission. Exhibitors are able to decorate their pens or provide their own.

More information on showing with FIFe can be found here.

*CFA*

The CFA is a relatively new registry in the UK but is very popular internationally. It has over 600 member clubs and holds roughly 400 shows worldwide in their show season.

*Recognised breeds*

The CFA recognises 42 breeds, these are:


Abyssinian
American Bobtail
American Curl
American Shorthair
American Wirehair
Balinese
Bengal
Birman
Bombay
British Shorthair
Burmese
Burmilla
Chartreux
Colourpoint Shorthair
Cornish Rex
Devon Rex
Egyptian Mau
European Burmese
Exotic
Havana Brown
Japanese Bobtail
Korat
La Perm
Maine Coon
Manx
Norwegian Forest Cat
Ocicat
Oriental
Persian
Ragamuffin
Ragdoll
Russian Blue
Scottish Fold
Selkirk Rex
Siamese
Siberian
Singpura
Somali
Sphynx
Tonkinese
Turkish Angora
Turkish Van
More information on CFA breeds can be found here.

*Breeding with CFA
*
Cattery names under CFA can be purchased through their website, and must be renewed every 5 years. As with all registries, only kittens born from _Active Register_ parents can be registered. More information can be found here.

*Clubs in CFA
*
Similarly to the other registries, clubs represent members in the CFA. Members of the public are welcome to join CFA-affiliated clubs. There are currently two clubs in the UK, information on which can be found here and here. At the time of writing, only one club holds shows, of which there are two this year (2018).

*Showing with CFA
*
As stated above, there are currently only two shows available under CFA in the UK. There are more worldwide. Information on UK shows can be found on the club page.

CFA shows are also ring judged, and shows have anything from 4 to 12 rings. Cat are awarded titles based on a points system, although this is a different points system to that of TICA. Household pets can be shown but do not compete for titles.

Entire cats obtain can obtain the following titles:

Champion
Grand Champion
Neutered cats can obtain the following titles:

Premier
Grand Premier
More information on titling under CFA can be found here.

Entry to the show is £60 for the two days, and includes rings but not penning. There are opportunities for cheaper early bird entry and subsequent cats entered also receive discounts. Exhibitors are able to decorate their hired pens or provide their own.

This concludes the post, if anyone feels I have missed anything please do let me know


----------



## Tigermoon

With TICA you can become a Member which entitles you to vote on certain matters such as who your Regional Director will be and get discounts on almost everything from kitten registrations to certified pedigrees. You can become a member for 1 year, 5 years or for life with prices ranging from $40 for 1 year, $180 for 5 years and $1000 for lifetime membership. However, you do not have to be a member to register kittens or show with TICA. Although an international registry, TICA is based in the USA so all prices are in US dollars.

Cattery (Prefix) Registration (One-Time Only Fee) (member) $75.00, (non member) $80.00
Cattery Suffix (Per Addition or Deletion on an Existing Registration) $10.00
Online Breeder Listing $25.00

Registration of a Cat/Kitten (Without Litter Registration-Certified Pedigree Required) (member) $20.00, (non member) $20.00
Registration of a Cat/Kitten (From Litter Registration) (member) $10.00, (non member) $12.00
Registration of a Litter (Dam and Sire TICA Registered) (member) $13.00, (non member) $15.00
Registration of a Litter (TICA Dam Only) (Certified Pedigree Required on Sire) $16.00 (member), $18.00 (non member)
Registration of a Household Pet (member) $8.00, (non member) $10.00
Transfer of Ownership (Any Feline) (member) $13.00, (non member) $15.00
Certified Pedigree (Three Generation) (member) $25.00, (non Member) $25.00
Certified Pedigree (Five-Generation) (member) $50.00, (non member) $50.00
Vertical Pedigree Report (Information on the Littermates of your Cat) (member) $10.00, (non member) $10.00

REGISTRATION INCENTIVE NEW TICA CATTERIES: 5 individual cat registrations at $15 PLUS a Cattery Registration for $40, Additional Registrations (over 5) $12 each

TITLES
Confirmation (Except Supreme Grand Champion/Alter & Supreme Grand Master) Each Title $5.00
Confirmation (Supreme Grand Champion/Alter & Supreme Grand Master - 8x10 Certificate for Framing) $10.00
Confirmation (Outstanding Dam - 8x10 Laminated Certificate) $20.00
Confirmation (Outstanding Sire - 8x10 Laminated Certificate) $25.00
Confirmation (Lifetime Achievement Award - 8x10 Laminated Certificate) $20.00
Current Scoring Record (On Individual TICA Cats) Each $5.00
Confirmation Report (On Individual TICA Cats) Each $10.00


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## QOTN

If the prices are only in dollars, presumably they vary according to the value of the £.

Can you clarify some of this? Am I right in thinking that a registration without litter registration is only for those who have not bred the cat themselves or can a breeder just register perhaps one or two in a litter and then provide a certified pedigree and have no litter registration? (I think this illustrates how we sometimes assume things are crystal clear because we have known these things for so long.)


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## Rufus15

My understanding of individual cat registration without litter registrations is for when breeders change the affix or suffix of the cat to their own, even though they haven't bred them themselves


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## QOTN

Rufus15 said:


> My understanding of individual cat registration without litter registrations is for when breeders change the affix or suffix of the cat to their own, even though they haven't bred them themselves


We are going to have to be very careful to mention the registry whenever we make a comment. Presumably you mean in TICA in answer to my question.

Why should they be able to change the name of the cat?


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## Rufus15

QOTN said:


> We are going to have to be very careful to mention the registry whenever we make a comment. Presumably you mean in TICA in answer to my question.
> 
> Why should they be able to change the name of the cat?


Apologies, yes I meant TICA. I don't know why they should, I only know that a cat's prefix/suffix can be changed from one cattery name to another, and reregistered under the new cattery name regardless of who bred it. I can't understand the point in such an option, I only know that it's an available option.


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## Tigermoon

QOTN said:


> If the prices are only in dollars, presumably they vary according to the value of the £.


You will always pay TICA $75 for a prefix. The £ you end up having to pay your end will depend on the exchange rate.



QOTN said:


> Can you clarify some of this? Am I right in thinking that a registration without litter registration is only for those who have not bred the cat themselves or can a breeder just register perhaps one or two in a litter and then provide a certified pedigree and have no litter registration? (I think this illustrates how we sometimes assume things are crystal clear because we have known these things for so long.)


In TICA you can just register the litter. You are then given Blue Slips which have all the kittens details except a name. You give the blue slip to the kittens owners who can then register the kitten with a name of their choosing. However, I prefer to both register the litter then register each kitten before homing them.



QOTN said:


> Why should they be able to change the name of the cat?





Rufus15 said:


> I don't know why they should, I only know that a cat's prefix/suffix can be changed from one cattery name to another, and reregistered under the new cattery name regardless of who bred it. I can't understand the point in such an option, I only know that it's an available option.


You can never change the name of a cat in TICA, however an owner may add a suffix to a cats name, for example:
.
There are three breeders: Mrs A (Whiskers), Mrs B (Mittens) & Mrs C (Fluffy)
Mrs A breeds a cat called Whiskers Paddy.
Mrs B buys him and adds a suffix so he is now Whiskers Paddy of Mittens.
A while later Mrs B sells him to Mrs C who changes the suffix to her own, so the cat is now Whiskers Paddy of Fluffy

You cannot remove the breeders prefix. Adding suffixes is very common in the US.


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## QOTN

Can you explain the cat registration (no litter registration certified pedigree required)

Many thanks.


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## huckybuck

Not sure how relevant but just for your information and from the perspective of a kitten purchaser..

I tried to report a breeder who was registered with Tica for lying about gene testing on their website. Unfortunately I have conclusive evidence that they did. 
I had no response from the registry at all despite both writing and emailing them and the cattery still continues to be registered with Tica to this day, although the breeder is now her daughter. I know there are probably some unethical breeders within the GCCF but I wouldn't trust a Tica only registered breeder with a barge pole based on my experience.


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## QOTN

huckybuck said:


> Not sure how relevant but just for your information and from the perspective of a kitten purchaser..
> 
> I tried to report a breeder who was registered with Tica for lying about gene testing on their website. Unfortunately I have conclusive evidence that they did.
> I had no response from the registry at all despite both writing and emailing them and the cattery still continues to be registered with Tica to this day, although the breeder is now her daughter. I know there are probably some unethical breeders within the GCCF but I wouldn't trust a Tica only registered breeder with a barge pole based on my experience.


I think we need to get on to the attitudes of the different registries to health testing at a later date because it could become really complicated. Bear with us!


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## Tigermoon

QOTN said:


> Is just registering a litter the same as declaring kittens in GCCF although you would probably not declare a whole litter in GCCF.


Its similar yes. The breeder fills in all the details, sire, dam, date of birth, colour and sex of each kitten. TICA assigns a registration number to each kitten and then sends the breeder a slip for each kitten. These slips can be given to the new owners for them to register their own kitten or, the breeder can register each kitten before they give it to its new owners.


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## Tigermoon

huckybuck said:


> I tried to report a breeder who was registered with Tica for lying about gene testing on their website. Unfortunately I have conclusive evidence that they did. I had no response from the registry at all despite both writing and emailing them and the cattery still continues to be registered with Tica to this day, although the breeder is now her daughter.


This happens in all registries unfortunately. GCCF would expect you to pay to raise a complaint of this nature, and only a few breeds have health tests built in to their registration policies. The GCCF itself doesn't decide what tests are mandatory the Breed Advisory Committee does. When it comes to genetic testing the onus is always on the buyer to demand to see proof.


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## Tigermoon

QOTN said:


> Can you explain the cat registration (no litter registration certified pedigree required)
> 
> Many thanks.


Sorry @QOTN I missed this question. This is when a cat is registered with another registry and you wish to register it with TICA. So basically its the same as 'importing' a cat into GCCF.


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## huckybuck

Tigermoon said:


> This happens in all registries unfortunately. GCCF would expect you to pay to raise a complaint of this nature, and only a few breeds have health tests built in to their registration policies. The GCCF itself doesn't decide what tests are mandatory the Breed Advisory Committee does. When it comes to genetic testing the onus is always on the buyer to demand to see proof.


With hindsight I wish I had gone to trading standards as she clearly advertised that her kittens were gene tested negative so was offering mis leading information - it was one of the reasons I went to her. With hindsight I would always ask for proof these days.

I would happily have paid incidentally.


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## OrientalSlave

Tigermoon said:


> This happens in all registries unfortunately. GCCF would expect you to pay to raise a complaint of this nature, and only a few breeds have health tests built in to their registration policies. The GCCF itself doesn't decide what tests are mandatory the Breed Advisory Committee does. When it comes to genetic testing the onus is always on the buyer to demand to see proof.


And you have to send a fee with your complaint.

"There is a £15 administration fee for processing all complaints. If the complaint relates to cat welfare or can be dealt with under the fixed penalty system there is no further charge. For all other complaints a further fee of £160 is charged which may be refunded if the complaint is found proved by the Disciplinary Committee. Please enclose the fee with your forms."


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## huckybuck

OrientalSlave said:


> And you have to send a fee with your complaint.
> 
> "There is a £15 administration fee for processing all complaints. If the complaint relates to cat welfare or can be dealt with under the fixed penalty system there is no further charge. For all other complaints a further fee of £160 is charged which may be refunded if the complaint is found proved by the Disciplinary Committee. Please enclose the fee with your forms."


This was Tica 7 years ago and I would happily have paid a fee if I had been asked.


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## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> This was Tica 7 years ago and I would happily have paid a fee if I had been asked.


£160? That's quite a fee if you don't get it back. If they were advertising DNA tested kittens and you could prove they weren't as in the kitten had the gene it shouldn't have had I would have thought trading standards might have been the way to go.


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## Rufus15

@huckybuck if you have cats from gene tested n/n lines the way through the pedigree then biology would dictate that no resulting kittens would be able to be positive or carriers. This reasoning is what some MC breeders use to not test their breeding cats - parents, grandparents, great grandparents are all n/n so all cats produced in that line will be n/n. This isn't something I agree with as tests are cheap in the grand scheme of breeding, so I think it would have depended on the wording on the website.


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## simplysardonic

Is this worth making into a sticky, & if so, would it be better in the breeding section?


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## OrientalSlave

simplysardonic said:


> Is this worth making into a sticky, & if so, would it be better in the breeding section?


Yes in time but from my point of view it's a very early work in progress.


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## simplysardonic

OrientalSlave said:


> Yes in time but from my point of view it's a very early work in progress.


OK, I'll leave it for now.

@Rufus15 give one of the mods a shout when you want it stickied


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## huckybuck

Rufus15 said:


> @huckybuck if you have cats from gene tested n/n lines the way through the pedigree then biology would dictate that no resulting kittens would be able to be positive or carriers. This reasoning is what some MC breeders use to not test their breeding cats - parents, grandparents, great grandparents are all n/n so all cats produced in that line will be n/n. This isn't something I agree with as tests are cheap in the grand scheme of breeding, so I think it would have depended on the wording on the website.


She stated it was an HCM negative cattery and that all the cats and kittens were HCM negative.


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## QOTN

simplysardonic said:


> Is this worth making into a sticky, & if so, would it be better in the breeding section?


My original idea was to provide comparisons of registries available in the UK for those looking for information when thinking about acquiring kittens, not only those interested in breeding. The former tend to end up in Cat Chat so I think this is why @Rufus15 put it here.


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## Rufus15

I thought it would be better in Cat Chat as I think many people bypass Breeding thinking it's only a section for breeding. Whilst it would tidier in Breeding, the section doesn't get as much traffic so the thread could be very easily missed.


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## Rufus15

I think it would be important if we could all agree on what points to put in this thread, so we can each then start adding to the thread in a relevant way. What differences are we highlighting if it's for the purposes of educating new kitten owners?

For me it would be:

Registration cost
Breeds available (with a small list of relevant tests)
Links to club lists
Links to show calendars and a brief overview of show set up (I think many owners think showing is just for breeders and encouraging folk to go to shows would do no harm)
I can't think of anything else at the moment, I expect you all will have more ideas.


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## QOTN

Rufus15 said:


> I think it would be important if we could all agree on what points to put in this thread, so we can each then start adding to the thread in a relevant way. What differences are we highlighting if it's for the purposes of educating new kitten owners?
> 
> For me it would be:
> 
> Registration cost
> Breeds available (with a small list of relevant tests)
> Links to club lists
> Links to show calendars and a brief overview of show set up (I think many owners think showing is just for breeders and encouraging folk to go to shows would do no harm)
> I can't think of anything else at the moment, I expect you all will have more ideas.


I think it is a good idea to show what all the registries actually require from those who register kittens with them because it seems to vary considerably. They all fall short of what most of us would like to see. Of course this may be different when people who are members contribute because the TICA and FIFe websites don't give much relevant information and the CFA seems even more vague.

We may be able to show that a registered kitten is only a guarantee of a limited number of things.

I think that FIFe is the same as GCCF in that the clubs are members not individuals. I think TICA has individual members but so far I cannot find the CFA setup.


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## OrientalSlave

Age kittens can be rehomed at. What must be provided with them. The basic things.


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## Rufus15

I think those are all excellent ideas, perhaps we could assign a registry to one or two users so there's focus and direction, instead of us all chipping in small bits and it becomes confusing


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## Rufus15

I have updated the first post with GCCF info. It's taken a few hours in between sorting out my small humans, so I'll get TICA, FIFe, and CFA done gradually throughout the week. GCCF has been the easiest as it's the registry I know, the others may take a little longer so you will all need to bear with me. If I've missed anything you feel is important, or something could be clarified or explained better, let me know and I'll try and rejig.


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## Psygon

Do other breed registries use breed numbers like GCCF? Are they the same? I don't think putting all the numbers in is essential just wondered if an example would be good?

I know GCCF has things like reference, experimental and supplementary register. Is this the same as other registries?


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## Tigermoon

I think that details of each registry should be done by someone who actually knows and understands that registry i.e. is a direct user. There has already been some misinformation posted.

@Psygon FIFE also uses EMS but GCCF being GCCF they use it in a slightly different way from FIFE. TICA do not use breed/colour numbers. Not sure about CFA.


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## Rufus15

@Tigermoon it would be helpful to know where incorrect information has been given, for example is there incorrect information in the first page post? If so, please identify where and provide the correct information so I can edit accordingly.


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## Rufus15

@simplysardonic I'm continuing to update the first post but can it be made into a sticky please so I can find it easily? I'm continually making edits so it's not completely finished, but I'm hoping to complete it before Saturday.


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## QOTN

The more I investigate the registries, the harder it seems to discover general information. To give one example the only compulsory DNA tests I can see in FIFe are GM in Burmese and Korat and Glycogen Storage disease In Norwegian Forest cats. Does this mean that there is no requirement for testing Persians for PKD?


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## Rufus15

One would assume not if there's no information about it. I think testing is difficult as many tests are recommended as opposed to compulsory. There is compulsory testing in one breed in GCCF, I can't remember which one it is now.


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## simplysardonic

Rufus15 said:


> @simplysardonic I'm continuing to update the first post but can it be made into a sticky please so I can find it easily? I'm continually making edits so it's not completely finished, but I'm hoping to complete it before Saturday.


Stickied for you


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## Rufus15

simplysardonic said:


> Stickied for you


Thank you so much


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## QOTN

Rufus15 said:


> One would assume not if there's no information about it. I think testing is difficult as many tests are recommended as opposed to compulsory. There is compulsory testing in one breed in GCCF, I can't remember which one it is now.


There is compulsory testing in quite a few breeds in GCCF but affected and carrier cats just go on the genetic register and can still be bred.

Asians have compulsory testing for hypokalaemic polymyopathy and no risky matings are allowed since this month, January 2018.

All GCCF white cats must be tested clear of deafness before being used for breeding but there is still a risk they can produce deaf kittens.


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## Rufus15

QOTN said:


> There is compulsory testing in quite a few breeds in GCCF but affected and carrier cats just go on the genetic register and can still be bred.
> 
> Asians have compulsory testing for hypokalaemic polymyopathy and no risky matings are allowed since this month, January 2018.
> 
> All GCCF white cats must be tested clear of deafness before being used for breeding but there is still a risk they can produce deaf kittens.


Asians, that was the one I was thinking of and couldn't remember.

The same rule is true under TICA for white cats too, proof of hearing must be sent to TICA before a kitten can go onto the Active Register. There's an organisation (university maybe?) in Derby that tests deafness for free as part of their research into deafness in white cats. Quite a way to go for some but handy if you're fairly local.


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## Furfection

I'm really finding it hard to check out a breeder here.

Anyway, I spoke to a high profile breeder with some champion cats (Siberians). Member of the original Sib club, registration listed on website etc. I though "oh fantastic , just have to wait til the kittens are ready now". Then I did some digging and found some really disturbing info. Information about ill kittens being sold, 1 or 2 later died, extremely poor breeding conditions etc. Also had a chat with some really nice people who corroborated this. Also legal cases that the breeder lost etc.

Before that, I'd spoken to the GCCF who said there was no current suspension vs the breeder. I asked "well how about the past, any fines, supsnesions, or disciplinary", bearing in mind I even had complaint numbers. I was told that this information is not released to the general public, very resistant to any further attempts at clarification. That was rather confusing because there are lists of who was fined what on the GCCF website. But the breeder in question wasn't listed as disciplined. I then had an email from the GCCF (another person) who said there was no record of discplinary proceedings vs that breeder and hasn't been suspended now or in the past. They do go on and say that the breeder hasn't registered kittens with them for quite a long time and that they could not comment on the standards of the breeder's breeding. Which made me wonder, because the breeder is very active right now with kittens described as registered.

So I am wondering... how do I make sense of this and reconcile apparent differences of facts? Has the breeder moved to TICA OR FIFe? Was the breeder told "don't register any new kittens here, and we won't ban you?" Does the GCCF have any real powers beyond acting as a database? I am told the breeder was rather aggressive vs the GCCF who are reluctant to enter "attack dog" mode. I really can't understand why GCCF staff are making contradictory statements. 

Now ok, if this was some shady backyard breeder I'd expect strange stuff. But its one with big champion cats etc. And well recognised people issuing warnings about the breeder.
Should I expect to get clarification from GCCF if I go back to them? Will TICA provide me with answers? Or will I get nowhere? haha
Seriously though, can anybody help me with how GCCF and TICA etc handle these matters. And what should I conclude in my search for a kitten?


----------



## Hestia

There is no substitute for visiting the breeder's home and observing your intended in the home they should be living in. Are the kittens running about and interacting? Do they come with kitten insurance? Where is the mother? Will they let you touch unvaccinated kittens (no!)? Do they check you out as much and want to know how you will care for their precious kittens? I had so many hoops to jump to get my hands on my special Burmese kitten, and rightly so. Our Maine Coon boy's breeder stays in touch and visits us a couple of times each year. Four years down the line we still call her for advice once in a while, especially about things like bathing. These are great breeders! Personal recommendation is key and that can take time. My Snowshoes are both rehomed girls but their original breeder is someone I knew and whose home I had visited to see what beautifully natured cats they were. Certificates and champions mean nothing (she says, with an Imperial G Ch in the kitchen).  The clean, fresh, welcoming, happy home of bouncing kittens is everything.


----------



## lillytheunicorn

QOTN said:


> The more I investigate the registries, the harder it seems to discover general information. To give one example the only compulsory DNA tests I can see in FIFe are GM in Burmese and Korat and Glycogen Storage disease In Norwegian Forest cats. Does this mean that there is no requirement for testing Persians for PKD?


PKD testing is mandatory unless negative by inheritance in Persians and Exotics in Felis Britannica (FIFe U.K.) The document in the top links to an old version of the FIFe B&R rules


----------



## OrientalSlave

lillytheunicorn said:


> PKD testing is mandatory in Persians and Exotics. The document in the top links to an old version of the FIFe B&R rules


Negative by inheritance is accepted by the GCCF for Persians and presumably other breeds where they require PKD testing


----------



## lillytheunicorn

Registration Prices with Felis Britannica (FIFe)

All kittens must be registered with FB, there is no ability to declare kittens.

Litter from FB parents £7.50
Litter from FB dam only £10

Then every kitten must have a pedigree @ £10 for a 4 generation or £20 for a 5 generation pedigree.

Import registration

£15 from another FIFe member (as individual member i.e country keeps their own pedigree book)
£25 from another Registry body.


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## lillytheunicorn

OrientalSlave said:


> Negative by inheritance is accepted by the GCCF for Persians and presumably other breeds where they require PKD testing


Sorry yes negative by inheritance is acceptable, I will amend.


----------



## Rufus15

Furfection said:


> I really can't understand why GCCF staff are making contradictory statements.


I'm quoting this snippet, as I had to giggle - none of us can understand why GCCF make the contradictory statements they do.

In relation to the rest of your post, I'm not sure how much information GCCF can or can't give out beyond the information already on the suspension lists. I would imagine the disciplinary matters are private, as they would be in all organisations.

It is possible that breeders can move between registries - I am dual registered with GCCF and TICA due to the availability of studs - so it's not unheard of but I would question why someone registers with one registry for years and suddenly switches to another.

If you're in any doubt over the breeder, don't buy from them. There are plenty of long term or 'big name' breeders that shouldn't be breeding, that don't have good breeding practices, or that don't breed to breed standard.

I don't think you'll get anywhere with the registries, neither have much power over breeders and are, predominantly, as you said; databases.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Furfection said:


> <snip>
> 
> I then had an email from the GCCF (another person) who said there was no record of discplinary proceedings vs that breeder and hasn't been suspended now or in the past. They do go on and say that the breeder hasn't registered kittens with them for quite a long time and that they could not comment on the standards of the breeder's breeding. Which made me wonder, because the breeder is very active right now with kittens described as registered.
> <snip>


Registered with who? Are they advertising as GCCF? Or just as 'Registered'? BTW I looked at the adverts for Siberians on Pets4Homes and was shocked at the prices some people are asking, and I see most of the most expensive kittens are TICA registered rather than GCCF. I do know of some breeders (not Siberian) who simply moved registry when they got into trouble at the GCCF.

Information on the GCCF website is only the current suspensions, and the office staff are very pressed at present and struggling to keep up with the basic stuff let along queries.


----------



## Tigermoon

Furfection said:


> Anyway, I spoke to a high profile breeder with some champion cats (Siberians). Member of the original Sib club, registration listed on website etc. I though "oh fantastic , just have to wait til the kittens are ready now". Then I did some digging and found some really disturbing info. Information about ill kittens being sold, 1 or 2 later died, extremely poor breeding conditions etc. Also had a chat with some really nice people who corroborated this. Also legal cases that the breeder lost etc.


Beware the backstabbers …. Any breeder who has been breeding for any length of time, particularly if they are successful at shows will fall victim to the jealousy of others. When this happens rumours start, many of which are false. Just because someone tells you that someone has disease in their cattery, that cats have died, that they have been taken to court doesn't mean this has actually happened. If they did end up in court, this would be recorded somewhere. Instead visit the breeder, keep your eyes and ears open. If something isn't right then walk.



Furfection said:


> They do go on and say that the breeder hasn't registered kittens with them for quite a long time and that they could not comment on the standards of the breeder's breeding. Which made me wonder, because the breeder is very active right now with kittens described as registered.


The first thing to remember is that the GCCF aren't the be all and end all of cat registration in the UK. There are in fact four official registration bodies in the UK, and a breeder may register their cats with any one of these bodies.​


Furfection said:


> Has the breeder moved to TICA OR FIFe? Was the breeder told "don't register any new kittens here, and we won't ban you?"


No registery makes offers like this to people on disciplinary. You either get fined and suspended, or banned, or you win your case.


----------



## Furfection

Hestia said:


> There is no substitute for visiting the breeder's home and observing your intended in the home they should be living in. Are the kittens running about and interacting? Do they come with kitten insurance? Where is the mother? Will they let you touch unvaccinated kittens (no!)? Do they check you out as much and want to know how you will care for their precious kittens? I had so many hoops to jump to get my hands on my special Burmese kitten, and rightly so. Our Maine Coon boy's breeder stays in touch and visits us a couple of times each year. Four years down the line we still call her for advice once in a while, especially about things like bathing. These are great breeders! Personal recommendation is key and that can take time. My Snowshoes are both rehomed girls but their original breeder is someone I knew and whose home I had visited to see what beautifully natured cats they were. Certificates and champions mean nothing (she says, with an Imperial G Ch in the kitchen). The clean, fresh, welcoming, happy home of bouncing kittens is everything.


Thanks. Good advice Hestia. I've bought moggies, registered, unregistered before now. This time I wanted to be thorough but now I'm scratching my head.



Rufus15 said:


> I'm quoting this snippet, as I had to giggle - none of us can understand why GCCF make the contradictory statements they do.
> 
> In relation to the rest of your post, I'm not sure how much information GCCF can or can't give out beyond the information already on the suspension lists. I would imagine the disciplinary matters are private, as they would be in all organisations.
> 
> It is possible that breeders can move between registries - I am dual registered with GCCF and TICA due to the availability of studs - so it's not unheard of but I would question why someone registers with one registry for years and suddenly switches to another.
> 
> *If you're in any doubt over the breeder, don't buy from them.* There a*re plenty of long term or 'big name' breeders that shouldn't be breeding, that don't have good breeding practices*, or that don't breed to breed standard.
> 
> I don't think you'll get anywhere with the registries, neither have much power over breeders and are, predominantly, as you said; databases.


These Sibs aren't cheap, especially vs the fantastic cats I've had in the past. A long time ago, when I've bought crosses/unregistered and the like I've always thought "why not, its not some big, mercenary money making operation". But when they're asking 1000 (more or less) for Sibs I've starting thinking "I don't want to support kitten farms" etc



OrientalSlave said:


> Registered with who? Are they advertising as GCCF? Or just as 'Registered'? BTW I looked at the adverts for Siberians on Pets4Homes and was shocked at the prices some people are asking, and I see most of the most expensive kittens are TICA registered rather than GCCF. I do know of some breeders (not Siberian) who simply moved registry when they got into trouble at the GCCF.
> 
> Information on the GCCF website is only the current suspensions, and the office staff are very pressed at present and struggling to keep up with the basic stuff let along queries.


Yes, I think the activity I was talking about would be in the "expired" category now.


----------



## Furfection

Tigermoon said:


> Beware the backstabbers …. Any breeder who has been breeding for any length of time, particularly if they are successful at shows will fall victim to the jealousy of others. When this happens rumours start, many of which are false. Just because someone tells you that someone has disease in their cattery, that cats have died, that they have been taken to court doesn't mean this has actually happened. If they did end up in court, this would be recorded somewhere. Instead visit the breeder, keep your eyes and ears open. If something isn't right then walk.
> 
> The first thing to remember is that the GCCF aren't the be all and end all of cat registration in the UK. There are in fact four official registration bodies in the UK, and a breeder may register their cats with any one of these bodies.
> 
> No registery makes offers like this to people on disciplinary. You either get fined and suspended, or banned, or you win your case.


Good point. I know breeders fall out. Thats why I tried my best with due dilligence. Sib breeders and owners will know of a rather big falling out between breeders resulting in a breakaway Sib club being formed.

The breeder I was thinking of seemed to have gone quiet for a while, but wished to contest a possible life ban, and had the financial means to do so. With my own work background, I do think that regulatory bodies sometimes avoid extreme confrontation. Which might mean more "informal" agreements being struck maybe? This makes sense given that the GCCF etc have finite budgets.

I'm sure there were breaches of regs, but some would say "thats a while ago, and things are different now". The breeders who told me bad info I do trust absolutely.

There's several breeders who advertise a lot on the usual sites. Part of me is very tempted. But if its "reg docs to follow" and
very hard to find info on the breeder. I'm really nervous on parting with nearly 1k. Not because of the money, but because at that rate, there's the bigger potential danger of a kitten farm/intensive breeding etc. And ofcourse I couldn't think of anything worse than a new kitten with chronic health problems that could have been easily prevented.

Additionally, there's always this issue of the "documents to follow" approach.

petforums DOT co DOT uk/threads/question-about-registration-of-a-breeder.340804/
Again, docs to follow is the policy of the main breeder in question. Its also an issue with some other breeders I've identified.

Anyway, I'm sort of struggling to find the kitten I want. I've found fantastic breeders OR kittens that look like just what I want. Just not the kitten AND the due dilligence in one place! There's a massive number of different types of Sibs.
Sometimes, I wonder if I'd have been happier if I'd gone into the process "blind" to the pitfalls! Some people say "oh just be patient, it will take a while". Then I think "Oh if I'd have bought from X breeder, atleast it would have been the cat colour/type I wanted".
Very frustrating! : )

Thanks for your posts all!


----------



## OrientalSlave

Furfection said:


> <snip>
> These Sibs aren't cheap, especially vs the fantastic cats I've had in the past. A long time ago, when I've bought crosses/unregistered and the like I've always thought "why not, its not some big, mercenary money making operation". But when they're asking 1000 (more or less) for Sibs I've starting thinking "I don't want to support kitten farms" etc
> <snip>.


The kitten farms aren't the decent breeders who are often importing cats, they are the people letting unregistered 'pedigree' kittens go at 8 weeks.


----------



## Rufus15

Furfection said:


> Thanks. Good advice Hestia. I've bought moggies, registered, unregistered before now. This time I wanted to be thorough but now I'm scratching my head.
> 
> These Sibs aren't cheap, especially vs the fantastic cats I've had in the past. A long time ago, when I've bought crosses/unregistered and the like I've always thought "why not, its not some big, mercenary money making operation". But when they're asking 1000 (more or less) for Sibs I've starting thinking "I don't want to support kitten farms" etc
> 
> Yes, I think the activity I was talking about would be in the "expired" category now.


£1000 for a kitten not for breeding, i.e. a pet is extortionate! Have you been through the Siberian clubs affiliated with GCCF?


----------



## Furfection

JuliaRoberts said:


> I must say, it really annoys me when I see an advert for a kitten which states that 't*hey will not be registered because we are selling them as pets only'. *They are trying to hoodwink people. These days backyard breeders are selling their kittens for up to £500! They can't be trusted - they won't have put the work in that justifies selling at those prices.
> 
> I agree with a previous poster who says that if the kittens are not registered then it's most likely because the parents are not on the active register.


I was quoted 700s for one who said that.

I know the poster here hasn't been on the site recently, but its an interesting area.
The big problem here, as I touch on above, is that breeders sometimes say they WILL register them - either on showing a certificate of neutering or when the whole litter reaches x months old ( I was quoted 8 months). One of these breeders said that "registration is only for showers or breeders".

But what happens at 8 months, when the breeder isn't registering them? People aren't likely to send their kitten back for breach of contract. I mean the registration costs are tiny compared to the other costs of rearing a kitten. Tell me if its me being cynical, but surely the whole point of the regisrtation system is to ... register.

I really wonder what breeders are doing if they feel uncomfortable with registration. And the ones here (more than one) aren't classic BYBs but ones that have been in nationwide breeding programmes and won champion status.


----------



## Furfection

OrientalSlave said:


> The kitten farms aren't the decent breeders who are often importing cats, they are the people letting unregistered 'pedigree' kittens go at 8 weeks.


By farm, I don't necessarily mean a big, over-intensive commercial operation. I'm thinking any situation where I might not be getting what I paid substantial money for. I'm thinking poor health screening, substitute parents, inaccurate pedigree, no reg docs forthcoming. Basically anything where someone may have "chiselled" extra money.

Its not just the farming issue to me, but also sometimes its impossible to work out exactly who the breeder is. I can think of one, she was selling unreg Sibs for 400. Now she's selling ones advertised as reg ones for 1200. No website, can't find them on TICA, or in the cat clubs etc etc. She might be a terrific breeder but she's 250 miles away, no website, doesn't speak English so its not easy to validate anything.

PS silly question from me, how do I find a prefix on the TICA site? GCCF is easy.Additionally, wouldn't I need to check a prefix against a registered address, otherwise I could be dealing with anyone?



Rufus15 said:


> £1000 for a kitten not for breeding, i.e. a pet is extortionate! Have you been through the Siberian clubs affiliated with GCCF?


I'm seeing 700 to 950 across the board.

Yes the 2 Sib clubs (I was advised a dispute over who should be eligible caused this). I found fantastic people there, but sadly still waiting for my colour/type. Additionally one member cattery was the subject of some v strong condemnation from the other club. So even then, there are caveats I suppose.

Non members seem to be offering a bigger range of colours. But ofcourse they make me nervous. :-/


----------



## Tigermoon

Furfection said:


> The big problem here, as I touch on above, is that breeders sometimes say they WILL register them - either on showing a certificate of neutering or when the whole litter reaches x months old ( I was quoted 8 months). One of these breeders said that "registration is only for showers or breeders".
> But what happens at 8 months, when the breeder isn't registering them? People aren't likely to send their kitten back for breach of contract. I mean the registration costs are tiny compared to the other costs of rearing a kitten. Tell me if its me being cynical, but surely the whole point of the regisrtation system is to ... register.


The holding back of registration documents until the kitten is neutered has been going on for decades. IMHO it is completely pointless, a person will breed from the kitten regardless of paperwork if that's their intention, but it is ingrained deep in the psyche of breeders and it will be a long time before anything changes. You can report a breeder for failing to supply the correct paperwork and they will be suspended.



Furfection said:


> PS silly question from me, how do I find a prefix on the TICA site? Additionally, wouldn't I need to check a prefix against a registered address, otherwise I could be dealing with anyone?


Here https://www.tica.org/pdf/cattery/cattery.pdf Ideally I would agree the prefix should be shown with the owners name and maybe county. These days an address cannot be given, and no organisation will tell a member of the public this information.



Furfection said:


> Sib breeders and owners will know of a rather big falling out between breeders resulting in a breakaway Sib club being formed.


I think that every single breed of cat you care to name has had a major bust up leading to breeders going their separate ways and starting new clubs for their breed. That's why there are so many!


----------



## Rufus15

If I were you, I would be looking at going to shows and meeting breeders that way. You probably will have to wait for your chosen colour, most people do, but it will be worth it


----------



## Furfection

Sounds a really good idea Rufus.

If I haven't found the heir to the feline throne by the Autumn, I'll try one of the NEC shows to chit chat and stuff.

Which is better for someone looking to meet breeders? The Supreme one. Or the National Pet Show?
Or indeed is there another show that's best?


----------



## Rufus15

Furfection said:


> Sounds a really good idea Rufus.
> 
> If I haven't found the heir to the feline throne by the Autumn, I'll try one of the NEC shows to chit chat and stuff.
> 
> Which is better for someone looking to meet breeders? The Supreme one. Or the National Pet Show?
> Or indeed is there another show that's best?


The Supreme is GCCF and The National has a full TICA show, so it might be beneficial to go to both so you can cover both registries  You could also go to a local show, here are the links:

https://www.gccfcats.org/show-calendar

https://www.tica.org/da/show-calendar


----------



## Furfection

Thanks Rufus.
Can someone answer me this question?
How easy/quick is it to confirm TICA or GCCF documents regarding a kitten?
And how forthcoming/helpful are they if you want a quick answer?

How do people do it in practice when they are about to visit a breeder and ready to acquire a kitten?
I mean anyone can produce authentic looking documents if the registration bodies don't have extra steps.

PS not sure if this post is better suited to the pedigree papers sticky?


----------



## Tigermoon

Furfection said:


> Thanks Rufus.
> Can someone answer me this question?
> How easy/quick is it to confirm TICA or GCCF documents regarding a kitten?
> And how forthcoming/helpful are they if you want a quick answer?
> 
> How do people do it in practice when they are about to visit a breeder and ready to acquire a kitten?
> I mean anyone can produce authentic looking documents if the registration bodies don't have extra steps.
> 
> PS not sure if this post is better suited to the pedigree papers sticky?


You can contact the registries and enquire if the kitten is genuinely registered, but you'd need to have the registration number and pedigree name to do so. A quick answer, as in you need an answer in less than two days, highly unlikely.

I don't understand your last question. What do you mean about extra steps?


----------



## QOTN

I think it is a mistake to assume the majority of breeders are likely to give kitten owners fake documents. I suspect the dodgy 'breeders' don't bother with such things. Whatever I have thought of all the other breeders I have known, it has never occurred to me that their registration certificates were anything but genuine. They would be so much trouble to falsify and registration is a relatively cheap process. Many pedigree certificates I have seen have contained errors but only typos or misreading of handwriting and not intentional.


----------



## OrientalSlave

If you read the stick it has examples of genuine registration documents. I have shown my girls certificate to a buyer and it clearly has active on. Also when people visit to view my kittens they are not registered at that point in time as the future owners sometimes like to choose the pedigree name. Of course they are come collection day!


----------



## Furfection

Tigermoon said:


> You can contact the registries and enquire if the kitten is genuinely registered, but you'd need to have the registration number and pedigree name to do so. A quick answer, as in you need an answer in less than two days, highly unlikely.
> 
> I don't understand your last question. What do you mean about extra steps?


Extra steps, I'm touching on what you mentioned earlier. As a buyer/adopter I'd want to know the person really is the registered person, with those contact details, with genuine not copied documents etc. And the cat's ancestry is correct ie not the result of some form of substitute parents etc.

Its no good for TICA to just say "yes we have a registered Jane Brown who is not suspended". Because ideally I want to confirm its the person stated and the kitten/kitten parents that are stated.The TICA cattery list pdf for example, I think hasn't beeen updated this year.

I know GCCF didn't have phone staff due to staff shortages recently and they took a while to respond to emails. So I'm thinking that in practical terms it maybe hard to check out one of the newer breeders I mention below if its over a short space of time.



QOTN said:


> I think it is a mistake to assume the majority of breeders are likely to give kitten owners fake documents. I suspect the dodgy 'breeders' don't bother with such things. Whatever I have thought of all the other breeders I have known, it has never occurred to me that their registration certificates were anything but genuine. They would be so much trouble to falsify and registration is a relatively cheap process. Many pedigree certificates I have seen have contained errors but only typos or misreading of handwriting and not intentional.


Sure I think the majority of cat breeders are well intentioned. Some might do a few things wrongly and think it doesn't matter.
I've bought cats with no papers and everything went fine.
Then ofcourse there are sadly some who might cross the lines, usually in the higher priced breeds.

I'm looking at a newish breed to the UK. Some breeders are charging as much as £1300! Though generally £550 to £950, usually £700 to £850. There's (very?) limited numbers of breeding pairs in the UK. So my first worries are pet farmers and substitute (eg inbred or non-pedigree/non-registered) parents who might increase the risk of disease. I'm finding the most high profile established breeders have limited numbers of kittens - I can't find my preferred colour.Although I'd trust these breeders 1000%
But there are newer breeders who might have my colour. However, they aren't in the cat clubs, don't have websites, advertise a LOT, seem a bit mysterious/unknown to the established breeders and are often newly arrived foreign citizens. And they sometimes have different practices to the "mainstream" ones, even substantially more expensive. None of these things are "red flags" in their own right. However, it kind of makes things harder to figure out.

The cats are far lower priced in Europe, especially in Russia. I've also heard some people import young kittens. So I'm kind of wondering if documents might be used "twice" by unscrupulous breeders, if you follow my meaning. That and various other potential caveats.

I know new breeders have to start somewhere but some things are making me tread a little carefully.



OrientalSlave said:


> If you read the stick it has examples of genuine registration documents. I have shown my girls certificate to a buyer and it clearly has active on. Also when people visit to view my kittens they are not registered at that point in time as the future owners sometimes like to choose the pedigree name. Of course they are come collection day!


I think one part is that you're an established breeder who is known in the UK. Ofcourse being registered on collection gives the new adopter a huge amount of reassurance. Which is what I'm still looking for right now with a breeder.


----------



## Rufus15

@Furfection are you looking for a Neva Masquerade?


----------



## Furfection

Neva or a Sibby colourpoint, not sure on the exact words. I hear the terms are contentious : D


----------



## OrientalSlave

Furfection said:


> <snip>
> I think one part is that you're an established breeder who is known in the UK. Ofcourse being registered on collection gives the new adopter a huge amount of reassurance. Which is what I'm still looking for right now.


*Any* kitten from a GCCF breeder should be registered before you collect it unless there is an explicit agreement otherwise, in writing.

Have you read the GCCF's page on buying a kitten?

https://www.gccfcats.org/Buying-a-kitten

PS I'm a little bit known as a breeder in Scotland, I doubt if most people south of Leeds / Manchester have heard of me other than fellow forumites and the odd person on Facebook.


----------



## Furfection

Rufus15 said:


> @Furfection are you looking for a Neva Masquerade?





OrientalSlave said:


> *Any* kitten from a *GCCF breeder should be registered before you collect it unless there is an explicit agreement otherwise, in writing*.
> 
> Have you read the GCCF's page on buying a kitten?
> 
> https://www.gccfcats.org/Buying-a-kitten
> 
> PS I'm a little bit known as a breeder in Scotland, I doubt if most people south of Leeds / Manchester have heard of me other than fellow forumites and the odd person on Facebook.


Yes, read it from top to bottom. I think I mentioned this on petforums with someone. The problem is, the breeder says "don't agree, then no kitten". All I want is to know the kitten is identified as the reg one.

Some breeders say "I'll register the litter at 8 months when they are all neutered". But like I said before, there is early neutering.
And what if there's some sort of problem at 8 months re registration? ("You told me he was a pet, not for showing, why do you want it now, he's a lovely cat isn't he? Do you want to return him to me?") Ofcourse its a disciplinary matter, but many/most buyers don't/won't bother complaining. Additionally, why wouldn't a litter (and not transfers) be registered early on? Maybe the GCCF should make the wording more demanding?


----------



## OrientalSlave

Furfection said:


> Yes, read it from top to bottom. I think I mentioned this on petforums with someone. The problem is, the breeder says "don't agree, then no kitten". All I want is to know the kitten is identified as the reg one.
> 
> Some breeders say "I'll register the litter at 8 months when they are all neutered". But like I said before, there is early neutering.
> And what if there's some sort of problem at 8 months re registration? ("You told me he was a pet, not for showing, why do you want it now, he's a lovely cat isn't he? Do you want to return him to me?") Ofcourse its a disciplinary matter, but many/most buyers don't/won't bother complaining. Additionally, why wouldn't a litter (and not transfers) be registered early on? Maybe the GCCF should make the wording more demanding?


The breeder is insisting you agree to no papers? Run.

Run also from the one who says they will register- or give the papers - when the kitten is neutered. Also 8 months is far, far too late to be neutering. 4 months is the right age - or younger. They must be quite dumb as BYBs don't are about papers, they buy the kitten and breed it regardless,

I've missed what breed you are looking for, in what part of the country, but my advice would be to be prepared to go up to 200 miles to find the right kitten from the right breeder.


----------



## Tigermoon

Furfection said:


> But there are newer breeders who might have my colour. However, they aren't in the cat clubs, don't have websites, advertise a LOT, seem a bit mysterious/unknown to the established breeders and are often newly arrived foreign citizens. And they sometimes have different practices to the "mainstream" ones, even substantially more expensive. None of these things are "red flags" in their own right.


Every single one of these is a red flag!!

If you are worried about trusting breeders within the UK then there is absolutely no way you should ever consider importing a kitten, especially one from Russia. The pit falls of importing are massive, and very, very expensive if it goes wrong.

I think it's time you told us exactly what you are looking for, breed and colour. I don't know how we are supposed to help any further otherwise?


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## Furfection

OrientalSlave said:


> The breeder is insisting you agree to no papers? Run.
> 
> Run also from the one who says they will register- or give the papers - when the kitten is neutered. Also 8 months is far, far too late to be neutering. 4 months is the right age - or younger. They must be quite dumb as BYBs don't are about papers, they buy the kitten and breed it regardless,
> 
> I've missed what breed you are looking for, in what part of the country, but my advice would be to be prepared to go up to 200 miles to find the right kitten from the right breeder.


Unfortunately lots of breeders are saying they'll withold til neutered or less again. Not just obvious BYBs but people who have been around a while/with good show cats etc.

I'd happily look anywhere across the South East, South West and Wales, Midlands, and most of the North. Newcastle or Scotland would probably a little too far for now atleast.



Tigermoon said:


> Every single one of these is a red flag!!
> 
> If you are worried about trusting breeders within the UK then there is absolutely no way you should ever consider importing a kitten, especially one from Russia. The pit falls of importing are massive, and very, very expensive if it goes wrong.
> 
> I think it's time you told us exactly what you are looking for, breed and colour. I don't know how we are supposed to help any further otherwise?


Re Russia, its a fun place to visit but I think it just gives me extra hassle re importation, as I don't want to breed.
The non-EU import bit looks like a pain.Plus costs are considerable from what I can see. I'm sure it would be attractive for breeders though.
I haven't looked at the EU.. again I feel its a bit early to search that far.

OK, initially, I wanted to keep it vague - just "particular colours Siberian" in case it had an adverse effect on my search.
Plus I notice people tend to avoid specifics eg naming breeders on the main forum.
But as per above - I just want a colourpoint ie a Neva Masquerade Siberian. They can appear with parents who are classic non colourpoints (who carry the genes), but far more regularly with both parents who are colourpoint ie Nevas.


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## Tigermoon

Nevas are unfortunately rather disliked by sib breeders (and buyers apparently, who all want brown or silver tabby). However if its what you want, then wait for it. I'll check which of my sib friends do nevas. I know at lest one did at one point.


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## Rufus15

I think your only option is to wait for the colour you want from a breeder you'd like. Nevas, as Tigermoon says, aren't popular in the UK (although I believe they're more popular in the US), and many people now have to wait for a pedigree from an ethical breeder. Breeders often now have their pick of homes, as opposed to the other way around, especially for longer haired cats which seem to be "in" at the moment


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## Catnewbie

Hi,
Just wanted to share my experience so far.

Went to see a reputable breeder based on fb groups, cat club etc. I knew the lady has waiting lists etc. Met her, she showed me around her house, all her cats and sires etc. I was happy, i got on her waiting list but i knew it would be a while as i'm after a certain colour.

So fast forward, i started getting impatient and kept checking pet4homes as i wanted a kitten and didn't want ti wait any longer. I found some nice looking GCCF non active kittens, male too as i find males rare to find on pets4homes. Visited the breeder. She seemed lovely but mildly pushy and told me there's another lady waiting to see cats tomorrow. It was very suble selling tactic but i noticed it, maybe she was genuine. She didnt have the dad but i asked her about the mother and she said she's had to keep her away from the kittens as she wants to keep feeding the kittens but is too weak and has lost weight. In my head this didn't feel right but i was too (scared?) of persisting and asking to see her. She did not show me her other cats either just the 3 that were in the litter and available nor did she offer to show me the mother in another room. Maybe i shouldve asked and been more assertive?

I told her we needed to think about it and would let her know by end of the day. A few hours after i got home she wanted to know if i've made a decision because the other lady is asking. I said we've decided not to go ahead.

When i got home i had serious doubts, she was a nice lady but i get really put off when (i feel) someone is trying to pressure me. I felt like she just wanted to get rid of the cats. the cats were ok, they interacted with toys but one was quite aggressive with the other n scratched my 8 year old sensible son during play. He also seemed to flinch when my son would go near him could be cos he was a stranger even though they're handled by kids daily. 

The other breeder i met doesn't advertise and she's part of the GCCF breeder scheme and the cat club whereas this breeder i saw today just registers her cats with GCCF but isn't part of a cat club or the breeder scheme. I'm wondering that's where the difference is.
I feel i'm paying the same amount for the registered cat i want to pay someone i feel i can trust and is open and transparent, happy to show me around the house and other cats and the parents. 

I am thankful for this forum for educating me and even though i nearly made a mistake i am thankful for this forum for at least making me retain some warning signs that i need to look out for. Or maybe she was a genuine lady and i lost out on a good kitten but i can't part with that sort of money when i have my doubts about someone.


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## Tigermoon

Catnewbie said:


> Or maybe she was a genuine lady and i lost out on a good kitten but i can't part with that sort of money when i have my doubts about someone.​


If you ever have any doubt's whatsoever it is always best to walk away. The breeder may have been a good one but you should always buy from someone you feel comfortable with, as hopefully, you'll have a joint interest for the next 14+ years!

You should always see the mother. There are only two reasons I can think of that this can't happen 1. she's sick and at the vets. 2. she has died. Both are possibilities, though
thankfully rare. But any breeder worth their salt would be honest and explain the reason for her not being there.​
All I can say is be patient. Keep in mind the goal you are after and don't settle for anything else, even if that means you need to wait. Remember to keep in touch with the breeder, just a quick email to say 'Hi, how are the kittens/is there any kittens on the way' and a reminder of what you are looking for will go a long way. If I've not heard from someone for a month or more I think they've probably found a kitten elsewhere (this is very common and pretty frustrating from a breeders point of view as it wastes time while you try to find out who on your list is and isn't still looking).

Being a member of a cat club isn't necessarily a good or bad sign, similarly a breeder that shows isn't going to be necessarily better than one who doesn't. although it does perhaps show a stronger connection to the breed they own.


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## ZephD

Hi, I'm new to the forum but joined to see if anyone else is having the same problems in the search for a new Maine Coon. 
I've owned them before - my avatar is the last one, who sadly died a little while ago. Naturally, as any MC fan will understand, I want another one to replace her. I know who most of the reputable breeders are and where to find the main kitten lists, but I'm finding it really hard to get any up-to-date information.

Almost all the breeders seem to be letting their websites go out of date and not replying to emails. I thought perhaps they'd all migrated to Facebook, but peeking on there I couldn't find any more info. I can see from the breed society pages that these people are all still showing.
I realise it's a pain to keep a site current and everyone's busy, but from a potential owner's point of view, an up-to-date website really helps. For example, the breeder where I bought before is still breeding, she's a nice woman, but I had two kittens from her and one had HCM and died quite young. So before I contact her again I want to know which lines she's breeding from and if she's testing now - no info on her site, which is years out of date. 
I can see that some breeders post on here, and I wondered if they know - is there a reason why people seem to be practically pulling down the shutters? 

The sad thing is that it probably drives buyers to Gumtree, Pets4homes etc, where there are always recent postings from BYBs.


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## chillminx

Hi @ZephD and welcome 

Do you go to the cat shows? It is a good place to meet the breeders informally, have a chat and see their cats. And take it from there.


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## ZephD

chillminx said:


> Hi @ZephD and welcome
> 
> Do you go to the cat shows? It is a good place to meet the breeders informally, have a chat and see their cats. And take it from there.


Hi, thanks for the quick reply! I haven't been to cat shows, I don't show myself and it always seemed a bit of an alien world  But perhaps that's what people prefer now, personal contact rather than online.

None of my MCs would ever talk to strangers, at all, ever, so I can't imagine how you'd get one to put up with showing! I guess every breed has its divas.


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## Rufus15

ZephD said:


> Hi, I'm new to the forum but joined to see if anyone else is having the same problems in the search for a new Maine Coon.
> I've owned them before - my avatar is the last one, who sadly died a little while ago. Naturally, as any MC fan will understand, I want another one to replace her. I know who most of the reputable breeders are and where to find the main kitten lists, but I'm finding it really hard to get any up-to-date information.
> 
> Almost all the breeders seem to be letting their websites go out of date and not replying to emails. I thought perhaps they'd all migrated to Facebook, but peeking on there I couldn't find any more info. I can see from the breed society pages that these people are all still showing.
> I realise it's a pain to keep a site current and everyone's busy, but from a potential owner's point of view, an up-to-date website really helps. For example, the breeder where I bought before is still breeding, she's a nice woman, but I had two kittens from her and one had HCM and died quite young. So before I contact her again I want to know which lines she's breeding from and if she's testing now - no info on her site, which is years out of date.
> I can see that some breeders post on here, and I wondered if they know - is there a reason why people seem to be practically pulling down the shutters?
> 
> The sad thing is that it probably drives buyers to Gumtree, Pets4homes etc, where there are always recent postings from BYBs.


I'm a new Maine Coon breeder, maybe I can help?

A lot of breeders are getting more enquiries than they can keep up with. I would suggest ringing your chosen breeder(s) and either go on waiting lists or keep in contact with them regularly so you can get updates on when they might expect a litter.

If you want to take this over to pm, I can help you with this breeder and who might have their lines.


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## Hestia

ZephD said:


> Hi, I'm new to the forum but joined to see if anyone else is having the same problems in the search for a new Maine Coon.
> I've owned them before - my avatar is the last one, who sadly died a little while ago. Naturally, as any MC fan will understand, I want another one to replace her. I know who most of the reputable breeders are and where to find the main kitten lists, but I'm finding it really hard to get any up-to-date information.
> 
> Almost all the breeders seem to be letting their websites go out of date and not replying to emails. I thought perhaps they'd all migrated to Facebook, but peeking on there I couldn't find any more info. I can see from the breed society pages that these people are all still showing.
> I realise it's a pain to keep a site current and everyone's busy, but from a potential owner's point of view, an up-to-date website really helps. For example, the breeder where I bought before is still breeding, she's a nice woman, but I had two kittens from her and one had HCM and died quite young. So before I contact her again I want to know which lines she's breeding from and if she's testing now - no info on her site, which is years out of date.
> I can see that some breeders post on here, and I wondered if they know - is there a reason why people seem to be practically pulling down the shutters?
> 
> The sad thing is that it probably drives buyers to Gumtree, Pets4homes etc, where there are always recent postings from BYBs.


A lot of breeders didn't actually design their web sites and so would have to pay to have them redone, so let them slip. Although she doesn't breed Maine Coons any more, Heather of Namrib (Birman in reverse) in the Birmingham area is still very much in touch with the Maine Coon community and often fosters pedigree kittens for breeders. Not too long ago she had a house full when a breeder needed some assistance. The little devils were everywhere!


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## Hestia

ZephD said:


> None of my MCs would ever talk to strangers, at all, ever, so I can't imagine how you'd get one to put up with showing! I guess every breed has its divas.


Our MC boy is a retired Imperial GCh and the biggest diva you can imagine when a camera comes out....


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## ZephD

Hestia said:


> Our MC boy is a retired Imperial GCh and the biggest diva you can imagine when a camera comes out....


Good point about the websites, I can see how it would seem like a good idea to set one up and then the costs would mount.

I've had 3 MC s over the years and some of my friends have never seen any of them! or maybe just a tail disappearing upstairs. Absolutely refused to be introduced and admired, just sulked under the bed. I think they like people when they know they can boss them around, obviously your boy knows he can have everybody eating out of his paw....


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## Rufus15

My website cost £39 and I built it myself. It's not difficult, but breeders don't feel they need to bother with them. Very frustrating.


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## Hife

Furfection,
Did you end up getting your cat from this breeder? Just wondering what the outcome was as we are also looking for a Siberian 
Thanks

QUOTE="Furfection, post: 1065203248, member: 1473039"]I'm really finding it hard to check out a breeder here.

Anyway, I spoke to a high profile breeder with some champion cats (Siberians). Member of the original Sib club, registration listed on website etc. I though "oh fantastic , just have to wait til the kittens are ready now". Then I did some digging and found some really disturbing info. Information about ill kittens being sold, 1 or 2 later died, extremely poor breeding conditions etc. Also had a chat with some really nice people who corroborated this. Also legal cases that the breeder lost etc.

Before that, I'd spoken to the GCCF who said there was no current suspension vs the breeder. I asked "well how about the past, any fines, supsnesions, or disciplinary", bearing in mind I even had complaint numbers. I was told that this information is not released to the general public, very resistant to any further attempts at clarification. That was rather confusing because there are lists of who was fined what on the GCCF website. But the breeder in question wasn't listed as disciplined. I then had an email from the GCCF (another person) who said there was no record of discplinary proceedings vs that breeder and hasn't been suspended now or in the past. They do go on and say that the breeder hasn't registered kittens with them for quite a long time and that they could not comment on the standards of the breeder's breeding. Which made me wonder, because the breeder is very active right now with kittens described as registered.

So I am wondering... how do I make sense of this and reconcile apparent differences of facts? Has the breeder moved to TICA OR FIFe? Was the breeder told "don't register any new kittens here, and we won't ban you?" Does the GCCF have any real powers beyond acting as a database? I am told the breeder was rather aggressive vs the GCCF who are reluctant to enter "attack dog" mode. I really can't understand why GCCF staff are making contradictory statements.

Now ok, if this was some shady backyard breeder I'd expect strange stuff. But its one with big champion cats etc. And well recognised people issuing warnings about the breeder.
Should I expect to get clarification from GCCF if I go back to them? Will TICA provide me with answers? Or will I get nowhere? haha
Seriously though, can anybody help me with how GCCF and TICA etc handle these matters. And what should I conclude in my search for a kitten?[/QUOTE]


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## Furfection

Hife said:


> Furfection,
> Did you end up getting your cat from this breeder? Just wondering what the outcome was as we are also looking for a Siberian
> Thanks
> 
> QUOTE="Furfection, post: 1065203248, member: 1473039"]I'm really finding it hard to check out a breeder here.
> 
> Anyway, I spoke to a high profile breeder with some champion cats (Siberians). Member of the original Sib club, registration listed on website etc. I though "oh fantastic , just have to wait til the kittens are ready now". Then I did some digging and found some really disturbing info. Information about ill kittens being sold, 1 or 2 later died, extremely poor breeding conditions etc. Also had a chat with some really nice people who corroborated this. Also legal cases that the breeder lost etc.
> 
> Before that, I'd spoken to the GCCF who said there was no current suspension vs the breeder. I asked "well how about the past, any fines, supsnesions, or disciplinary", bearing in mind I even had complaint numbers. I was told that this information is not released to the general public, very resistant to any further attempts at clarification. That was rather confusing because there are lists of who was fined what on the GCCF website. But the breeder in question wasn't listed as disciplined. I then had an email from the GCCF (another person) who said there was no record of discplinary proceedings vs that breeder and hasn't been suspended now or in the past. They do go on and say that the breeder hasn't registered kittens with them for quite a long time and that they could not comment on the standards of the breeder's breeding. Which made me wonder, because the breeder is very active right now with kittens described as registered.
> 
> So I am wondering... how do I make sense of this and reconcile apparent differences of facts? Has the breeder moved to TICA OR FIFe? Was the breeder told "don't register any new kittens here, and we won't ban you?" Does the GCCF have any real powers beyond acting as a database? I am told the breeder was rather aggressive vs the GCCF who are reluctant to enter "attack dog" mode. I really can't understand why GCCF staff are making contradictory statements.
> 
> Now ok, if this was some shady backyard breeder I'd expect strange stuff. But its one with big champion cats etc. And well recognised people issuing warnings about the breeder.
> Should I expect to get clarification from GCCF if I go back to them? Will TICA provide me with answers? Or will I get nowhere? haha
> Seriously though, can anybody help me with how GCCF and TICA etc handle these matters. And what should I conclude in my search for a kitten?


[/QUOTE]

Nope. Didn't get a kitten from the one who had mixed reviews last Summer. Either way, I wasn't offered one. ANd didn't really get to the bottom of all of it. Would also be interested to hear from anyone else re Siberian information on breeders good, bad or middling.

Got my kitten from another breeder who was absolutely fantastic. Striking kitten, really lovely people.
And he gets on great with my older cat.
Glad I searched round for exactly what I wanted.


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## faerienuff

We did our research when we bought a Norwegian forest cat, they were a registered breeder and had won many competitions. We assumed this was indication of a good quality breeder.

We lived a distance from the breeder so reserved the kitten and went to pick him up it was December and obvious that they had multiple litters for the Xmas period, it was like a supermarket procession of people visiting for kittens!

When we got him home we separated from our other 3cats to give him time to get to meet them, when we visited the vets he was very underweight and riddled with ear mites, the breeders granddaughter had also painted the kittens nails with nail varnish which they had scrubbed off with remover which had damaged the nails, the vet thought there would be permanent damage.

It took about 6 weeks to sort out the eat mites which delayed the whole integration process with his new brothers and sister. He’s now a beautiful cat and has recovered from his poor start but researching the breeder doesn’t always work!


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## chillminx

@faerienuff - I think one can get a very good idea of whether the breeder is a good one by visiting them at home, seeing their set up, how they do things, and meeting their queens, before even deciding if one wants a kitten from them in future. It also gives the breeder a chance to size up possible kitten buyers.

I did my research first, and went to cat shows to meet breeders. But it was the visits to each breeder's home that told me all I needed to know.

Having made my choice of breeder I asked if I could go on their waiting list for 2 kittens from one of the shortly expected litters ( she had 3 breeding queens). The breeder agreed and 6 months later I had my two kittens. They were the most gorgeous cats, my soul mates, and they lived to the age of 18 and died within 3 weeks of each other.


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## faerienuff

Hi chillminx

I agree it’s better to meet the breeder before hand if possible. I was trying to highlight that you can do you research on paper and the breeder looks good in terms of their registration and winning cats but when you buy a kitten this doesn’t necessarily add up. We have done both visited a breeder before hand and bought from a breeder we researched and looked good on paper and bought a pixie bob from a breeder we visited.neither came with official paperwork this was supposed to follow later and never did. The NFC breeder was winning all the shows in its category and looked like a top class breeder,

Where breeders get you are you fall in love with your bundle of fluff as soon as you see them and to be honest I wouldn’t change any of my decisions now I have them.

It does pay though to find an honest breeder who is interested in the cat above profit! And occasionally adopt a moggie or two


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## Rufus15

Depending on how much of the claws were painting, I would suggest that it was perhaps the breeder's way of telling kittens apart. A lot of breeders use toxic-free, kitten-safe nail varnish on a claw or two to identify similar looking kittens in a litter. I'd be surprised if all of his claws were painted, a child wouldn't be able to hold a kitten still for long enough.

Personally, I don't agree with it. I find it too risky and dangerous, even with safe varnishes, and I think it looks peculiar.

I would also say that it's not unusual to have more than one litter at a time, and to have a lot of visitors in a short period when there are multiple litters. Breeders have lives too, and if you have 2 litters of 6, that's 12 families that will visit at least once and some will visit 2 or 3 times. That's a lot of time to set aside for the breeder.

The ear mites and being underweight, however, are an issue. He shouldn't have been placed in a new home in that state, and the breeder is absolutely at fault


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## Tigermoon

Researching breeders includes visiting them. Anyone can look good on paper but only a visit prior to choosing a breeder will tell you things such as how the cats are kept and whether they look healthy etc.

When a litter is ready I try to have people come at very different times, such as one in the morning and one in the afternoon but sometimes it just isn't possible and you have to have people come at roughly the same time so they end up crossing each other. If you have a couple of litters ready at the same time it must be hard to manage all those eager new owners, some of whom like to stay and chat for hours!

Nail vanish is a common way breeders identify kittens in a litter, especially if they are all the same colour, I'm actually surprised the vet wasn't aware of this practice. However the mite and parasite load is very poor. No breeder should have an infested cattery and certainly shouldn't be selling infected kittens.


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## faerienuff

Hi I appreciate that breeders can have multiple cats and litters at the one time, in my personal experience with one breeder it felt like the breeder had multiple litters to cash in on the Xmas market especially combined with the condition my kitten was in. He was the only all blue kitten that was available and the breeder said that the nails had been painted by the granddaughter so nothing to do with id. I’ve attached a photo of when he was a kitten and his back paw was bare of fur and three nails were damaged these eventually fell out at the root. He had an eye infection and really bad ear mite infection which took 6-8 weeks to clear up, he was supposed to have been vet checked and vaccinated a few days before we picked him up. The set up of outdoor cages at the cattery looked ok and by looking at him you wouldn’t have necessarily picked up any issues apart from the paw which the breeder pointed out and apologised about.

All of the available kittens were playing in the one room so potentially they all had ear mites, I just felt bad for potential other owners who might have had the same experience as myself. I decided not to follow it up with the breeder as I didn’t think there would be anything to gain from it, we were going to provide the care he needed and I put I’d down to experience and something to check out for in future if I buy another cat from a breeder.

It may just have been bad luck on my part and the breeder is very good normally and for all not the quiet perfect start to owning him he is now fit and healthy and we wouldn’t be without him


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## Rufus15

faerienuff said:


> Hi I appreciate that breeders can have multiple cats and litters at the one time, in my personal experience with one breeder it felt like the breeder had multiple litters to cash in on the Xmas market especially combined with the condition my kitten was in. He was the only all blue kitten that was available and the breeder said that the nails had been painted by the granddaughter so nothing to do with id. I've attached a photo of when he was a kitten and his back paw was bare of fur and three nails were damaged these eventually fell out at the root. He had an eye infection and really bad ear mite infection which took 6-8 weeks to clear up, he was supposed to have been vet checked and vaccinated a few days before we picked him up. The set up of outdoor cages at the cattery looked ok and by looking at him you wouldn't have necessarily picked up any issues apart from the paw which the breeder pointed out and apologised about.
> 
> All of the available kittens were playing in the one room so potentially they all had ear mites, I just felt bad for potential other owners who might have had the same experience as myself. I decided not to follow it up with the breeder as I didn't think there would be anything to gain from it, we were going to provide the care he needed and I put I'd down to experience and something to check out for in future if I buy another cat from a breeder.
> 
> It may just have been bad luck on my part and the breeder is very good normally and for all not the quiet perfect start to owning him he is now fit and healthy and we wouldn't be without him


Poor little chap, its shameful that he was allowed to live and be sold in that state. I'm very glad he's happy and well now


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## chillminx

@faerienuff - what a gorgeous boy he is now! 

I am shocked at your second photo of him as a kitten - in that state he looks like some of the sad, neglected rescued kittens we take in at the shelter!  I am amazed a breeder would home him like that! But good for you for 'rescuing' him.


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## Ottery

I completely agree with the comments about how difficult it can be to find good breeders. You would think the internet would make it easier but I’ve had Burmese cats for over 20 years and it almost seemed easier pre-internet. Breeders often either don’t have a website, or it’s out of date, or just impossible to find. Even Facebook isn’t particularly helpful. 

Last year when I wanted two kittens, I looked at the cat club list but there were no kittens available in my region. I find it’s not always up to date either, with kittens still listed who have long gone. So I rang a breeder I’d had a previous kitten from and she was really helpful, she gave me a list of several other breeders and also rang two of them who had imminent kittens and ‘recommended’ me. I got one kitten from her (when we first spoke he was reserved by someone who then changed her mind) and another from one of her contacts. 

I agree there is no substitute for actually visiting the breeder and seeing the set up - and meeting the cats. I have always used registered breeders, and they have all been fine - except one, when we were looking about 7 years ago. This breeder was well known on the cat show circuit but what we saw absolutely shocked me, everything we encountered was a red flag. A horrendous choking stench of cat wee. Several shockingly manky adult cats. No sign of the mother. We were ushered into a living room and the breeder brought the two kittens in, it was obviously an alien environment to them and they promptly hid and resisted handling. I wanted to leave before the kittens even arrived in the room! We said no thanks. 

I can understand breeders tend to operate by word of mouth so don’t need to ‘advertise’, and once you know one or two good breeders it becomes a lot easier - but it can be difficult to break into what can seem like a closed circle.


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## Rufus15

@Ottery this is why I always recommend going to shows. People have busy lives and it's hard to keep websites updated, especially club websites that are run on a voluntary basis. Going to shows allows you to get the measure of the breeder and they of you.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience


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## Ottery

@Rufus15 
The problem is, the breeder was a regular at shows and was well thought-of by other breeders - they knew her from shows, they had never been to her house. Seeing her set up was a whole different thing to how she appeared in public. You just don't know until you actually visit! I do wonder what I would have thought if I hadn't visited good breeders in the past, would I have thought it was acceptable? Probably not, given the stench!


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## Rufus15

Ottery said:


> @Rufus15
> The problem is, the breeder was a regular at shows and was well thought-of by other breeders - they knew her from shows, they had never been to her house. Seeing her set up was a whole different thing to how she appeared in public. You just don't know until you actually visit! I do wonder what I would have thought if I hadn't visited good breeders in the past, would I have thought it was acceptable? Probably not, given the stench!


I agree that showing isn't a guarantee of a good breeder, I was referring to your difficulty in finding a breeder


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## Ottery

@Rufus15 sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Rufus15

Ottery said:


> @Rufus15 sorry for the misunderstanding.


I think I came across blunter than I meant to, reading back. Apologies


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## Ottery

@Rufus15 no problem.


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## Ade M

The bottom line with finding a pedigree cat: There is NO guarantee. Especially if its registered with GCCF etc.
It is very simple, A GCCF or any other cat club offers NO GUARANTEES about the status or the breed of the cat.

Until the registries GCCF - TICA or whatever include DNA passports to every registered cat, then they can say - they can guarantee that particular cat is bred down these lines.

At the moment, breeders can and will abuse the system, because they hide behind the falsehood that their cats come from a particular line and they are a member of that cat registry.

The whole concept of cat registries is based on the TRUST of each individual breeder. 
But until DNA registration of each cat becomes the norm, you just dont know what you are getting from a breeder.


----------



## Rufus15

Ade M said:


> The bottom line with finding a pedigree cat: There is NO guarantee. Especially if its registered with GCCF etc.
> It is very simple, A GCCF or any other cat club offers NO GUARANTEES about the status or the breed of the cat.
> 
> Until the registries GCCF - TICA or whatever include DNA passports to every registered cat, then they can say - they can guarantee that particular cat is bred down these lines.
> 
> At the moment, breeders can and will abuse the system, because they hide behind the falsehood that their cats come from a particular line and they are a member of that cat registry.
> 
> The whole concept of cat registries is based on the TRUST of each individual breeder.
> But until DNA registration of each cat becomes the norm, you just dont know what you are getting from a breeder.


There is no DNA test for breed.

Registration is not a guarantee, which why it's important to research the breed and research breeders.


----------



## vivien

Ade M said:


> The bottom line with finding a pedigree cat: There is NO guarantee. Especially if its registered with GCCF etc.
> It is very simple, A GCCF or any other cat club offers NO GUARANTEES about the status or the breed of the cat.
> 
> Until the registries GCCF - TICA or whatever include DNA passports to every registered cat, then they can say - they can guarantee that particular cat is bred down these lines.
> 
> At the moment, breeders can and will abuse the system, because they hide behind the falsehood that their cats come from a particular line and they are a member of that cat registry.
> 
> The whole concept of cat registries is based on the TRUST of each individual breeder.
> But until DNA registration of each cat becomes the norm, you just dont know what you are getting from a breeder.


You are so right I did everything right when I was looking for my Maine Coon. I went to a breeder that I thought was honest and good. But I was so wrong. My poor Yogi has been to hell and back in his 6 years. I thought oh well it's just bad luck and we got him as well as he can be. He is on antirobe, or Zodon whichever our vet can get hold of. For the rest of his life. But I have found out since that there have been a few of her kittens that have been as poorly as my Yogi has. I am at the moment trying to help my friend who has one of her kittens he is now 4 years old and she doesn't know like I didn't if he will make it. I have offered her to send Yogi's report from the Animal Health Trust to try and help her vet pinpoint what is wrong with her boy. Like Yogi the vet thinks it's most likely neurological and possibly caused by toxoplasmosis. Breeders like this make me so angry, I am just praying she isn't breeding any more. I would hate for someone to go through what I and my friend have and are going through. There are other people who have had kittens and have health issues.

Viv xx


----------



## Ade M

vivien said:


> You are so right I did everything right when I was looking for my Maine Coon. I went to a breeder that I thought was honest and good. But I was so wrong. My poor Yogi has been to hell and back in his 6 years. I thought oh well it's just bad luck and we got him as well as he can be. He is on antirobe, or Zodon whichever our vet can get hold of. For the rest of his life. But I have found out since that there have been a few of her kittens that have been as poorly as my Yogi has. I am at the moment trying to help my friend who has one of her kittens he is now 4 years old and she doesn't know like I didn't if he will make it. I have offered her to send Yogi's report from the Animal Health Trust to try and help her vet pinpoint what is wrong with her boy. Like Yogi the vet thinks it's most likely neurological and possibly caused by toxoplasmosis. Breeders like this make me so angry, I am just praying she isn't breeding any more. I would hate for someone to go through what I and my friend have and are going through. There are other people who have had kittens and have health issues.
> 
> Viv xx


Sorry to hear about your furbaby, its heartbreaking when this happens. With breeding you never can tell what the litter can produce. 
It may be just bad recessive jeans in the mother and father have expressed themselves in this litter. It may be a bad breeder, who knows?
It just can make up for the heartache and torment when dealing with a poorly kitten. You know the next kitten you get, may be just perfect.


----------



## vivien

Ade M said:


> Sorry to hear about your furbaby, its heartbreaking when this happens. With breeding you never can tell what the litter can produce.
> It may be just bad recessive jeans in the mother and father have expressed themselves in this litter. It may be a bad breeder, who knows?
> It just can make up for the heartache and torment when dealing with a poorly kitten. You know the next kitten you get, may be just perfect.


Yogi is 6 years old now. We know that something can go wrong at any time. We dread this happening. We thank our lucky stars that the animal health trust found out what was wrong with him. Yogi is our last cat due to my age. I have my four boys Yogi Tiga Simba and Max. And our two girls. Gemma our GSD and Purdy our JRT. Our lives are all the more richer for them being with us. I am just so sad that my friend is going through what my Yogi went through and still does. 
Thank you for answering. It just brought it home to me when my friend told me that her cat is still struggling so badly with his health.

Viv xx


----------



## Rufus15

vivien said:


> Like Yogi the vet thinks it's most likely neurological and possibly caused by toxoplasmosis. Breeders like this make me so angry, I am just praying she isn't breeding any more.


I'm sorry Viv, but what do you expect the breeder to do? Toxoplasmosis is something breeders can't control, it can be found in garden soil or raw meat. If a breeder has an cat proofed garden and an infected rodent manages to get in, is that the breeder's fault?

If Yogi is the cat I think he is, I'm not at all sure you can blame the breeder, and should instead be looking at the person that purchased him in the first instance.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Rufus15 said:


> There is no DNA test for breed.
> 
> Registration is not a guarantee, which why it's important to research the breed and research breeders.


But there is DNA testing for parentage. It's done with people, horses, dogs, and yes, cats.

http://www.animalsdna.com/www.animalsdna.com/web/page/feline_parentage_verification.html


----------



## vivien

Rufus15 said:


> I'm sorry Viv, but what do you expect the breeder to do? Toxoplasmosis is something breeders can't control, it can be found in garden soil or raw meat. If a breeder has an cat proofed garden and an infected rodent manages to get in, is that the breeder's fault?
> 
> If Yogi is the cat I think he is, I'm not at all sure you can blame the breeder, and should instead be looking at the person that purchased him in the first instance.


Yogi is my cat. A week after he came home he got sick. It got to the point that he collapsed and had to be rushed back to the vet. Who then finally referred him to the animal health trust. Where yogi had to undergo an MRI and spinal tap. Thankfully they managed to bring him back to some form of health, which although it has improved over the years he still has many problems. The breeder did not have a cat proof garden all her cats apart from the sire were indoor cats. She said she had never fed raw food. I only had him a week, then he was seriously ill. I had a lot of support on here when this all happened. My friend has had the same with her boy. A tiny kitten who a week after going home to her getti;g seriously ill too. But they haven't until now been able to pinpoint what was wrong. Also others that have had kittens from this breeder have kittens that have turned into cats that like Yogi are on lifelong medication. I'm sorry if I offended you but I cannot help feeling that something was wrong in that household. Even my vet said something was not right. She couldn't even get his name right on his pedigree, which I hasten to add I didn't get until he was over a year old. My vet said because it could cause problems with my insurance to ditch the pedigree when I showed him the name on the pedigree and the name on the contract. I don't want to fall out over this but my other boys breeders have also told me something wasn't right. Thank you for your input though.

Viv xx

Edit. Also why would Yogi's breeder tell me that if Yogi died before 2 years old she would give me another kitten? Oh I almost forgot. She said he had a health check before he came home with me. How come her vet didn't notice one of his testicals was still inside. My vet had to get permission from the AHT to catstrate him as he would have to be under anaesthetic for long than a normal castration.


----------



## Rufus15

vivien said:


> Yogi is my cat. A week after he came home he got sick. It got to the point that he collapsed and had to be rushed back to the vet. Who then finally referred him to the animal health trust. Where yogi had to undergo an MRI and spinal tap. Thankfully they managed to bring him back to some form of health, which although it has improved over the years he still has many problems. The breeder did not have a cat proof garden all her cats apart from the sire were indoor cats. She said she had never fed raw food. I only had him a week, then he was seriously ill. I had a lot of support on here when this all happened. My friend has had the same with her boy. A tiny kitten who a week after going home to her getti;g seriously ill too. But they haven't until now been able to pinpoint what was wrong. Also others that have had kittens from this breeder have kittens that have turned into cats that like Yogi are on lifelong medication. I'm sorry if I offended you but I cannot help feeling that something was wrong in that household. Even my vet said something was not right. She couldn't even get his name right on his pedigree, which I hasten to add I didn't get until he was over a year old. My vet said because it could cause problems with my insurance to ditch the pedigree when I showed him the name on the pedigree and the name on the contract. I don't want to fall out over this but my other boys breeders have also told me something wasn't right. Thank you for your input though.
> 
> Viv xx
> 
> Edit. Also why would Yogi's breeder tell me that if Yogi died before 2 years old she would give me another kitten? Oh I almost forgot. She said he had a health check before he came home with me. How come her vet didn't notice one of his testicals was still inside. My vet had to get permission from the AHT to catstrate him as he would have to be under anaesthetic for long than a normal castration.


Perhaps he's not the cat I'm thinking of, and he's a different cat with the same name.

In relation to the undescended testicle, that is the fault of the vet and not the breeder. An inexperienced vet would miss it.

I will repeat that it's important to do research into one's breeder (I'm not saying you didn't do enough, just making a general point)


----------



## vivien

I agree about doing research. The breeder ticked all the right boxes at the time. I met the mum, the dad, her house was clean. I don’t know what went wrong. But finding out there were others in my situation didn’t help.i had to nag her for Yogi’s pedigree. There’s too many problems that stacked up. 

Viv xx


----------



## Rufus15

vivien said:


> I agree about doing research. The breeder ticked all the right boxes at the time. I met the mum, the dad, her house was clean. I don't know what went wrong. But finding out there were others in my situation didn't help.i had to nag her for Yogi's pedigree. There's too many problems that stacked up.
> 
> Viv xx


I can see your problem with the breeder, it seems they didn't give much, if any, support


----------



## Bubsagogo

chillminx said:


> Excellent post @Tigermoon.  I hope we can have it as a sticky.





Smuge said:


> A very helpful list @Tigermoon thank you for posting
> 
> I am now at the very end of the process and am over the moon with my breeder, but the thing I found most difficult about finding a breeder was verifying anything they said, this was especially difficult as I am not part of the "local cat community." There is very little to stop a BYB saying they are tested, registered etc so I was keen to look into it more beyond simply being told everything was in order. I did eventually verify everything and in time got rave reviews, but it certainly took a fair bit of digging - im not sure that's something all buyers do. One thing that made me feel comfortable early on was that money was never an issue, she told me the price during the first phone call and money was never mentioned again until I emailed to double check the figure a few weeks ago - she wasn't even interested in a deposit, if she is just in it for a quick buck? she isn't very good at it lol
> 
> Another thing that I loved seeing but had never previously considered? The Breeder had cats from her line that were very clearly not used for breeding due to age/health (injury) etc, they were just loved pets - this is one thing I will definitely look for in the future as I think a breeder having cats that have nothing to do with breeding is a hugely positive sign
> 
> My kittens mum is a bit skittish around strangers and the kitten itself just pretty much just sat in our hands purring for the entire visit (around 8 weeks) so not a lot of playing etc but after a little while her sister spent the next hour exploring every corner of the room. I think ours (who we are already madly in love with - we slightly worry it borders on obsession  ) was just a bit shell shocked by being picked up and cuddled by giant strangers. I know this may fall under a couple of your flags (come to think of it the kittens were brought in from another room - she had 2 litters and rather a lot of kittens) but the stud, and other pets in the household were all super friendly and I absolutely believe the breeder when she says that the mum is just a lap cat who doesn't like strange humans much at first - I got the impression she was very much a favourite though.
> 
> I hope this thread helps other future cat parents find a great breeder  I found the process extremely stressful


----------



## Bubsagogo

HSo I've started

Hello all
Total newbie here and maybe doing this all wrong but anyway - Hey! Thanks so much for sharing all this useful info. 
So, my situ is I am planning on getting my first kitten or kittens later this year once all hols are done n dusted and I can devote time.
I work from home a lot but there will be one or two days a week I’ll need to get someone to look in. I want a chilled out cat who is affectionate but not needy. From all my research so far I favour BSH. I understand that lots of you will suggest a rescue but I used to be scared of cats ( due I’m sure to a feral cat taken in when I was a nipper) and so temperament is crucial. I appreciate all animals are individuals but I want to at least try to get a calm friendly cat and as a kitten so we can bond.
So, all the reading and research can’t really prepare you and I want to meet some bsh cats and kittens in the flesh and don’t know how or where I could do that. Any advice? My choice really does have to be right fit me and my little one  xx


----------



## lymorelynn

Bubsagogo said:


> HSo I've started
> 
> Hello all
> Total newbie here and maybe doing this all wrong but anyway - Hey! Thanks so much for sharing all this useful info.
> So, my situ is I am planning on getting my first kitten or kittens later this year once all hols are done n dusted and I can devote time.
> I work from home a lot but there will be one or two days a week I'll need to get someone to look in. I want a chilled out cat who is affectionate but not needy. From all my research so far I favour BSH. I understand that lots of you will suggest a rescue but I used to be scared of cats ( due I'm sure to a feral cat taken in when I was a nipper) and so temperament is crucial. I appreciate all animals are individuals but I want to at least try to get a calm friendly cat and as a kitten so we can bond.
> So, all the reading and research can't really prepare you and I want to meet some bsh cats and kittens in the flesh and don't know how or where I could do that. Any advice? My choice really does have to be right fit me and my little one  xx


Hi and welcome. Good luck in your search for the right kitten. To meet cats and kittens the best way is to visit cat shows and chat to the breeders and exhibitors. Have a look here https://www.gccfcats.org/show-calendar to find shows in your area. They usually open to the public around 12 or 1 o'clock


----------



## Rufus15

Bubsagogo said:


> HSo I've started
> 
> Hello all
> Total newbie here and maybe doing this all wrong but anyway - Hey! Thanks so much for sharing all this useful info.
> So, my situ is I am planning on getting my first kitten or kittens later this year once all hols are done n dusted and I can devote time.
> I work from home a lot but there will be one or two days a week I'll need to get someone to look in. I want a chilled out cat who is affectionate but not needy. From all my research so far I favour BSH. I understand that lots of you will suggest a rescue but I used to be scared of cats ( due I'm sure to a feral cat taken in when I was a nipper) and so temperament is crucial. I appreciate all animals are individuals but I want to at least try to get a calm friendly cat and as a kitten so we can bond.
> So, all the reading and research can't really prepare you and I want to meet some bsh cats and kittens in the flesh and don't know how or where I could do that. Any advice? My choice really does have to be right fit me and my little one  xx


Whilst we largely advocate rescue first, there are quite a few users on here who also advocate pedigrees due to a more known personality type. So don't worry about being hounded over looking for a pedigree 

In addition to @lymorelynn's link to GCCF shows, also have a look at the TICA and Felis Britannica show calendars. They are, along with GCCF, are the three recognised registries in the UK. Shows are the best places to start when searching for a breeder


----------



## OrientalSlave

Bubsagogo said:


> HSo I've started
> 
> Hello all
> Total newbie here and maybe doing this all wrong but anyway - Hey! Thanks so much for sharing all this useful info.
> So, my situ is I am planning on getting my first kitten or kittens later this year once all hols are done n dusted and I can devote time.
> I work from home a lot but there will be one or two days a week I'll need to get someone to look in. I want a chilled out cat who is affectionate but not needy. From all my research so far I favour BSH. I understand that lots of you will suggest a rescue but I used to be scared of cats ( due I'm sure to a feral cat taken in when I was a nipper) and so temperament is crucial. I appreciate all animals are individuals but I want to at least try to get a calm friendly cat and as a kitten so we can bond.
> So, all the reading and research can't really prepare you and I want to meet some bsh cats and kittens in the flesh and don't know how or where I could do that. Any advice? My choice really does have to be right fit me and my little one  xx


To be honest a young adult is probably best for you, as you will get a much better idea of their personality. Also, whilst various breeds have different personalities these are averages, not a given. A good rescue would let you meet their cats and help you find the one that suits you and your family.

We don't know where you are, if you could let us know the town maybe we can make some suggestions.


----------



## Bubsagogo

Hi all thanks for your help - I never even thought about shows! I’m based in Birmingham.


----------



## Rufus15

Bubsagogo said:


> Hi all thanks for your help - I never even thought about shows! I'm based in Birmingham.


There's a show in Coventry next weekend, at the British Motor Museum. Why not pop along?


----------



## Bubsagogo

Rufus15 said:


> There's a show in Coventry next weekend, at the British Motor Museum. Why not pop along?


Thanks, will defo look into that! Am now also considering getting an older cat or cats instead of kittens. I really want to bond with my pet which is what appeals about kittens but I guess with an older cat you have more of an idea what you're getting in terms of temperament...So much to think about!! I am struggling to navigate here on my phone and I'm sure I'm asking about things that have been posted a million times so thanks again for your help!


----------



## Rufus15

Bubsagogo said:


> Thanks, will defo look into that! Am now also considering getting an older cat or cats instead of kittens. I really want to bond with my pet which is what appeals about kittens but I guess with an older cat you have more of an idea what you're getting in terms of temperament...So much to think about!! I am struggling to navigate here on my phone and I'm sure I'm asking about things that have been posted a million times so thanks again for your help!


If you do go, let me know. I'm going myself with my Maine Coon boy


----------



## Bubsagogo

Rufus15 said:


> If you do go, let me know. I'm going myself with my Maine Coon boy


I definitely will - I'd love to meet you both! I have a clash on Saturday which I will try and juggle but it's looking unlikely sadly. Looking at the show calendar it looks like mid March is a good date for me - I think from memory it's a TICA show in Worcester. Is that one you might go to?


----------



## Rufus15

Bubsagogo said:


> I definitely will - I'd love to meet you both! I have a clash on Saturday which I will try and juggle but it's looking unlikely sadly. Looking at the show calendar it looks like mid March is a good date for me - I think from memory it's a TICA show in Worcester. Is that one you might go to?


I don't think it's a TICA show, all their shows this year are down south or over by Doncaster. There was one in Telford but it was cancelled.

The next show in the Midlands is 2nd May in Worcester, maybe that's what you're thinking of?


----------



## Bubsagogo

Rufus15 said:


> I don't think it's a TICA show, all their shows this year are down south or over by Doncaster. There was one in Telford but it was cancelled.
> 
> The next show in the Midlands is 2nd May in Worcester, maybe that's what you're thinking of?


That must be the one - I think March was wishful thinking as May seems forever away!! Oh well more time to obsess over google before I actually meet some kitties


----------



## Rufus15

Bubsagogo said:


> That must be the one - I think March was wishful thinking as May seems forever away!! Oh well more time to obsess over google before I actually meet some kitties


It does seem like forever away doesn't it! You'll enjoy the visit though


----------



## Bubsagogo

Rufus15 said:


> It does seem like forever away doesn't it! You'll enjoy the visit though


Hey I think I'm being a bit slow but I can't see how to ask a new question/start a new thread. Could you give me a clue?!


----------



## ChaosCat

You do it like this:


----------



## Rufus15

Bubsagogo said:


> Hey I think I'm being a bit slow but I can't see how to ask a new question/start a new thread. Could you give me a clue?!


As @ChaosCat has so beautifully demonstrated.

On a phone it's a bit more obvious


----------



## Bubsagogo

ChaosCat said:


> You do it like this:
> View attachment 432008


You make it look so easy!  Thanks got your help - I think it's my phone screen. Cheers!


----------



## Bubsagogo

Thanks guys sussed it!!


----------



## Bubsagogo

Rufus how did your boy get on at the recent show? Hope you both had fun!


----------



## Rufus15

Bubsagogo said:


> Rufus how did your boy get on at the recent show? Hope you both had fun!


He did brilliantly, thank you for remembering us  was very pleased with his results, he placed very well which I didn't expect so it was lovely. Very proud mama


----------



## Kaye20

urbantigers said:


> If you are after a popular breed, be extra wary. Breed such as British Shorthair, Maine Coon, Persian, Bengal (not an exhaustive list) for example. These are the breeds that backyard breeders are likely to breed as they know there is a huge market out there for people who want these breeds and they also know that a large proportion of these potential buyers are after pets (as opposed to show cats), often first time buyers, and not always bothered, or educated about, what paperwork a breeder should provide, or what is the appropriate age for a kitten to go to his new home.
> 
> I'd advise anyone interested in a pedigree to go to a cat show, preferably a large cat show. That way you get to say multiple examples of the breed you're interested in and also get to chat to breeders.
> 
> Look at breed clubs. Most have kitten lists. Doesn't guarantee everything will be fine but it's a good starting point.
> 
> Don't pay a deposit to reserve a kitten until you have visited and viewed. You should see mum and kittens, and dad if the breeder owns the sire. Trust your gut instinct and if you're uncomfortable with anything, walk away.


----------



## Kaye20

Be careful of all breeders. Research better than I did! I bought a Siberian Forest cat (I have three & a Maine Coon). The woman handed me all the right papers, but was operating illegally out of her home. I didn't realize this until the day of pickup. (I had found her business online.) My cat, I believe, is inbred. The breeder had two mother cats and two adult male cats. She had many juvenile cats. They were all wandering around the inside of her home. There was no way for her to know which adults cats were interacting. My kitten (now age 8) is dumb. He is "special" in too many ways, unlike my other Siberians or any cat I've ever had.


----------



## spotty cats

Kaye20 said:


> but was operating illegally out of her home. I didn't realize this until the day of pickup. (I had found her business online.)


Curious what you mean by illegally breeding from home?
Anyone in this hobby calling themselves a business should be avoided.


----------



## Kaye20

She was a legal breeder of Soberians, but was operating out of her home in a deed restricted community that did not allow business to ve conducted from any home.


----------



## Rufus15

Kaye20 said:


> She was a legal breeder of Soberians, but was operating out of her home in a deed restricted community that did not allow business to ve conducted from any home.


There are no laws surrounding breeding as far as I'm aware, to make it legal or illegal. Breeding, for most, is a hobby, not a business?


----------



## OrientalSlave

Kaye20 said:


> She was a legal breeder of Soberians, but was operating out of her home in a deed restricted community that did not allow business to ve conducted from any home.


What country?


----------



## spotty cats

OrientalSlave said:


> What country?


Possibly USA, Florida by the profile. I know many breeders in Florida, breeding from their homes like the rest of us around the world.


----------



## OrientalSlave

spotty cats said:


> Possibly USA, Florida by the profile. I know many breeders in Florida, breeding from their homes like the rest of us around the world.


I thought definitely not the UK, though my house had a restriction which I had lifted since I worked at home when I brought and have done mostly since.


----------



## Kaye20

OrientalSlave said:


> What country?


USA ...Auburndale, FL


----------



## Kaye20

Rufus15 said:


> There are no laws surrounding breeding as far as I'm aware, to make it legal or illegal. Breeding, for most, is a hobby, not a business?


Illegal because she cannot operate her business out of her private home. It's a deed restricted community. Regardless, no reputable breeder would allow all her cats to interact all the time. There were no cages, & no way to keep brothers and sisters from mating


----------



## Rufus15

Kaye20 said:


> Illegal because she cannot operate her business out of her private home. It's a deed restricted community. Regardless, no reputable breeder would allow all her cats to interact all the time. There were no cages, & no way to keep brothers and sisters from mating


Hobby breeders are not a business. If she is breeding as a hobby that is not illegal. Nor should any breeder keep their cats in cages. The only thing I can see that they've done wrong is not taking more care to separate siblings at maturity. They wouldn't be the first breeder to be caught short by poor planning.


----------



## Summercat

@Kaye20 
Do you mean she lives in an area with a homeowners association? And any sort of business is not allowed from the home, be it soap making or kittens?
I suppose, if she is selling kittens, it is also a business, even if it is her hobby to breed cats.
Having breeding cats in the home seems typical and not necessarily cause for concern. 
If you were concerned, the time to walk away was before putting down the money and taking the kitten home.


----------



## Kaye20

Rufus15 said:


> Hobby breeders are not a business. If she is breeding as a hobby that is not illegal. Nor should any breeder keep their cats in cages. The only thing I can see that they've done wrong is not taking more care to separate siblings at maturity. They wouldn't be the first breeder to be caught short by poor planning.


Again... what was illegal is her violation of her housing development's rules regarding operating a business out of a private home. And she's still breeding and supplying official papers today, so it's not a hobby.


----------



## lymorelynn

I appreciate that the breeder us breaking the terms of her residency and what we class as 'hobby breeding' in the UK may not be exactly the same elsewhere, however, supplying the correct paperwork is an essential part of breeding and doesn't make it a business.
Personally I think it rather irresponsible and definitely un-businesslike, to allow entire boys to have free access all over the house but a DNA test will prove the parentage.
Not being as bright as other Norwegian Forest Cats that you've had doesn't make him inbred. I have Siamese girls that were definitely behind the door when intelligence was given out.


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## lymorelynn

https://www.registeredpets.co.uk/blog/buying-an-unregistered-kitten
Adding this link from another thread by @carolmanycats


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## RussellAnderson

good site, I like it.


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## loraonya

huh thanks for the information


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## lymorelynn

*Information kindly provided by @OrientalSlave *

*Why buy a Registered Pedigree Kitten?*
A registered kitten will be bred from two parents who are on the active register, and the female will be registered as owned by the breeder. It should be at least 13 weeks old, fully vaccinated, and ready to leave its breeder. Additionally, the GCCF will not register kittens where the parents are from sibling or parent/child matings, and if there are required health tests for the breed the parents must have had them. Note that there are additional health tests for some breeds which whilst advisable are not required by the GCCF.

In contrast BYBs are often breeding from at least one unregistered cat, or cat registered non-active. Most kittens are placed on the non-active register in the expectation that they will be neutered, and have been brought as pets only. Obviously, people breeding from these kittens have fibbed when they brought them.

BYBs may well offer a fake pedigree, and they love selling 8-week old kittens as most of the cost of rearing a kitten is after that age. At 8 weeks the kitten has not been vaccinated, may well not have been wormed, and is only just weaning. Between 8 & 13 weeks old most kittens are eating as much as an adult, use as much cat litter as an adult, and the female can be mated again PDQ.

If you add up all these costs, an unregistered 8-week old kitten for £500 will end up costing as much as a registered 13-week old kitten, more if it becomes unwell.

So how do I know my kitten is a registered pedigree? As mentioned many times on Pet Forums, a registered pedigree kitten will come with 'papers'. However, what do those papers look like? What should you receive with a registered kitten?

The answers depend on which Registry the kitten is registered with. This article covers the GCCF which is the main UK registry. There are, however, more breeders registering with FIFE and TICA which have their own rules & paperwork.

Regardless of registry, any pedigree kitten should come with a vaccination card showing two vaccinations against FPV/FHV/FCV, 3-4 weeks apart, with the first at 9 week or older (some breeders include Chlamydia and/or FeLV), a registration certificate or card, and a pedigree which is printed by the breeder for GCCF & TICA, but provided by the registry for FIFE.

*GCCF*
The GCCF is the main registry in the UK, and now REQUIRES that outside of exceptional circumstances, kittens do *not* leave the breeder until they are at least 13 weeks old and have been fully vaccinated against FPC, FHV and FCV:

_"All cats and kittens must be fully vaccinated against infectious enteritis (FPV), FHV and FCV ('cat flu') at least one week prior to sale and/or leaving for a new home. Note: in the event of an emergency that requires a cat or kitten to be rehomed that is not fully vaccinated, the office should be informed as soon as possible. (Amended 17.06.2015, 21.02.2018)"_

_Rule 10b ii_

The bare minimum you should receive with a GCCF registered kitten are:

· A signed pedigree showing at least three generations of cats with their registration and breed numbers, and the breeders name and address. Commonly the fourth generation has the breed numbers only due to space constraints when printing on A4;

· The kitten's registration card, which contains the information you need to transfer the cat or kitten into your name;

· The kitten's vaccination record - the second vaccination should have been given at least a week before you collect your kitten.

If the kitten is already microchipped one of the bar-code labels should be stuck to the vaccination card.

Hopefully you will also receive:

· A receipt;

· Details of worming and any flea treatment (not all kittens get flea treatment);

· Details of a few weeks free insurance;

· Care instructions;

· A toy or two;

· Some food the kitten is used to eating;

· A comfort blanket.

The GCCF rules only for kittens younger than 13 weeks and/or unvaccinated kittens tiin exceptional circumstances is never a good reason for the average pet buyer to buy such a kitten.

*Red Flags*
These apply to non-COVID times. During lockdown and various levels of social distancing, visiting may well be out of the question. If at all possible, wait until you can visit.

· Charging extra to register a kitten;

· Allowing any kitten to be registered active for a bigger price;

· Saying kittens sold as pets don't need to be registered;

· Bringing the kitten from somewhere else in the house for you to see;

· Not allowing you to visit;

· Not allowing you to see the kitten with mother and litter mates;

· Not letting you see the back garden - some apparently acceptable breeders have a back garden full of pens, though note a breeder with a stud will almost certainly have him living in a stud house in the back garden;

· Any sign of illness in any of the kittens;

· Litter trays and food dishes should be clean;

· Handing an unseen kitten over in a car park.

Many breeders do not keep a stud, so not seeing the father isn't necessarily a red flag.

*What if I can't afford a registered kitten?*
There is no denying that a registered kitten will cost several hundred pounds, maybe a thousand or more, depending on area and breed. However, as pointed out above, a young BYB kitten can easily cost just as much (or more) after the expenses of a few weeks' ownership, and remember that vet bills can easily exceed the cost of a registered kitten.

Additionally, buying a pet shouldn't be a spur of the moment thing, giving you time to save up both for the kitten and for a vet fund, and to look into getting a catio and/or cat-proofing your back garden. Pet Forums has a very useful (though long!) thread on this:

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/cat-runs-cat-proofed-gardens.211361/

However, if you don't want to spend £700 or more but want a cat of a specific breed, consider the breed rescues. Most GCCF breed clubs run rescues which rehome a variety of cats, including those whose owners have passed on and former breeding cats who will be much happier in a home on their own, or with a companion instead of lots of companions.

These cats will not be free but where they go from home to home rather than via a rescue pen you may only have to pay the cost of neutering, possibly vaccinations, and a donation to the rescue.

*More Information*
Some other sources of information are:

· The Pet Forums 'finding a pedigree cat' thread at https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/finding-a-pedigree-cat.447723/_;_

· The GCCF Laws & Rules: https://www.gccfcats.org/Portals/0/Rules Byelaws CoE/GCCF Byelaws 2018 February Web Edition.pdf?ver=2018-02-26-155138-573

· The GCCF Registration policy for the breed. These vary from very simple to very complicated but the important bit is any required health testing. You will find a link if you click on the photo of the breed from their Cat Breeds page:
https://www.gccfcats.org/Cat-Breeds;

· GCCF Affiliated Breed Clubs, found in the same way as the Registration Policy. These can help with finding breeders and with finding breed rescues;

· The GCCF Suspension list linked from:
https://www.gccfcats.org/About-GCCF/Suspension-List.
This is thankfully now one list (going back to 2000), with a second for the GCCFI. Note that some breeders on this have simply switched to TICA or other registries, so it's always worth checking it.

· The GCCF themselves. If you still have doubts you can ring the office who will confirm (or otherwise) that a particular cat is registered. However, they will not give any personal details out.

*Example Registration Card*
The Registration Card is A5 size, and is printed on good quality though lightweight, very slightly off-white card.

*Without a Registration Card, a kitten is probably not registered.*

Personal information has been redacted. The registration number will be 7 digits, and the UIN in the bottom right-hand corner is required to transfer ownership of the kitten to yourself. The register will usually be FULL or SUPPLEMENTARY. Very occasionally REFERENCE may be seen, but this is perfectly acceptable unless there are plans to show the kitten.

This is an example of the non-Agria style card. Some cards have Agria branding.


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## asper

I have been a member of The International Cat Association since 2019 and as a regular participant in all events I have various privileges. I have several cats at home that I take care of. At the moment when I joined the association, I only had my cat, but over time I was given 3 more little kittens, which became members of my family. I am also provided with inexpensive and nutritious food to keep my pets. With the support of the organization and care, I can take care of my pets. Every day with them is like a holiday for me.


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