# Issues associated with Pregnant Kitten?



## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

I have a 8month old Burmese who Houdini'd out during calling season a few weeks ago. Im not entirely convinced yet that she is pregnant as it was so recent...but was wondering the damage to her of having a litter while still being so young herself. 

Metally and Physically what changes/damage could occur from her having kittens so young? 
What is the best age for a cat to become a mother? 
What are my options to terminate if she is pregnant..are there any date restrictions etc?

Thanks in advance


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I doubt if there will be any problems. My first Burmese had an "oops" litter at nine and a half months. If you wanted to "terminate" (which means spay while pregnant), the time to do it was right away when you realised she had escaped. If it was a few weeks (how many weeks?) she should be visibly pregnant by now. Nipples change at three weeks gestation and they continue to change, that is an obvious sign before they are visibly pregnant.

Liz


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

You can get her spayed right up until a couple/few weeks before she is due. That would be your responsible option.

With her being so young I would imagine you risk personality change, along with any physical risks to her being so young. She certainly has more chance of having health issues at 8 months than perhaps a 12 month old. At 8 months old she is still learning about life herself and is still classed as a kitten.

That's not to mention the fact that by letting her continue with the pregnancy you're also contributing to the rescue problem. There are already too many cross bred cats over flowing in centres. Some of these cats and kittens could be homed by any potential new owner of any kittens you girl has. Please think about this carefully before you make any decision, as the only way for us as animal lovers to start making a difference to rescue problems, is by acting responsibly when accidents happen.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Most likely she would deliver without any problems but as you never intended her to have kittens why take the risk, even if it is a small one? Much better to have her spayed right now for all the reasons which Aurelia has given. It's a shame you didn't seek some advice directly after she escaped but it's far from too late to do something about it now as, at this stage, she cant be said to be truly 'pregnant'.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I am certainly no expert on breeding, but I have fostered a good few very young mums with their kittens.... my experience, generally they make pretty rubbish mums. Not all of them, but a FAR higher proportion than you would expect to find amongst more mature mums. I have litters with young mums, that I would frankly have had less work if I had hand reared the kittens myself. So I would say if you go ahead with this litter, be prepared for 2-3 hourly feeding (day AND night) for the first few weeks,, and to take over the bulk of cleaning & toileting. I had a couple of young mums who would feed their kittens .... but only when I actually forced the issue. i.e they would hear the kittens cry, but would do nothing.... only if I physically picked up the queen, and sat down with her, put the kittens on her nipple.... and stayed with her for a half hour till all the kittens fed, and talked and stroked her through the whole process. Pretty much the same with cleaning them, if I presented a kitten literally under her nose, she would clean them.... if I just "left her to it" then kittens would have died. I have a webcam in my kitten room, and some of the footage with young mums and their kittens... really, it's not for the faint hearted... especially if the young mum starts trailing the kittens around the room and dumping them on windowsills, book shelves, tops of cat trees, radiators, litter trays. Quite frightening really. 

If it was my cat i wouldn't hesitate to neuter.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

Actually, I had intended for her to have a litter of kittens but not until she was a few years of age.

Finding homes for kittens would certainly not be a problem...as friends and family have already expressed massive interest in her kittens regardless of them being pure breed or not. In fact my aunties have always commented on the personalities of my cats...one even asking if I would raise a kitten for her to have back as a cat to inherit the personality my own cats (moggies/pedigres) have had.

Im really not keen for her to continue a pregnancy (if she is in fact "knocked" up) as I am concerned that she still has a kitten's life to enjoy and she is still only small. I would also not want to risk losing her or put her through trauma considering she may not being mature enough to go through pregnancy/delivery and then having the babies leave the house. She has an absolute beautiful personality and we love her to bits...and this is by far more important than her EVER having kittens but I would like to know if having her speyed the only way of terminating the pregnancy?

Thanks all for you comments and the wonderful work you are doing to those less fortunate pussies out there.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

lizward said:


> I doubt if there will be any problems. My first Burmese had an "oops" litter at nine and a half months. If you wanted to "terminate" (which means spay while pregnant), the time to do it was right away when you realised she had escaped. If it was a few weeks (how many weeks?) she should be visibly pregnant by now. Nipples change at three weeks gestation and they continue to change, that is an obvious sign before they are visibly pregnant.
> 
> Liz


Did you notice any changes to her personality? Was she a good mum? Did she have litters after the first "Oops" litter?

Thanks so much


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

There are several (hormonal) treatment types for terminating a cat's pregnancy but none are 100% effective; none are completely safe and none are without potentially very unpleasant side effects. I'm sure you wouldn't want to put your lovely girl through that. 

Some (sticking my neck out, I'd say MOST) vets would be very reluctant to terminate a pregnancycy in this way and would try their hardest to steer you towards a spay.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Forgot to say - call me paranoid (I'm sure somebody will!) but I'd also advise that you speak to your vet about testing your girl in the not too distant future for FIV and FeLV. If she's been mated it will have been, most likely, by a stray (purely because most pet owners couldn't wouldn't put up with the antics of an unneutered male cat at home) which unfortunately means there is a much higher risk of him carrying these diseases.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

Tje said:


> I am certainly no expert on breeding, but I have fostered a good few very young mums with their kittens.... my experience, generally they make pretty rubbish mums. Not all of them, but a FAR higher proportion than you would expect to find amongst more mature mums. I have litters with young mums, that I would frankly have had less work if I had hand reared the kittens myself. So I would say if you go ahead with this litter, be prepared for 2-3 hourly feeding (day AND night) for the first few weeks,, and to take over the bulk of cleaning & toileting. I had a couple of young mums who would feed their kittens .... but only when I actually forced the issue. i.e they would hear the kittens cry, but would do nothing.... only if I physically picked up the queen, and sat down with her, put the kittens on her nipple.... and stayed with her for a half hour till all the kittens fed, and talked and stroked her through the whole process. Pretty much the same with cleaning them, if I presented a kitten literally under her nose, she would clean them.... if I just "left her to it" then kittens would have died. I have a webcam in my kitten room, and some of the footage with young mums and their kittens... really, it's not for the faint hearted... especially if the young mum starts trailing the kittens around the room and dumping them on windowsills, book shelves, tops of cat trees, radiators, litter trays. Quite frightening really.
> 
> If it was my cat i wouldn't hesitate to neuter.


Thanks...I can appreciate the hard work associated with a mother cat who firstly can not deliver without a cesarean and then just disassociates herself from the kittens. I inheritted beautiful moggy which a flatmate had left behind as she as more attached to me than him...she was around 2 yrs old and fell pregnant...only two kittens but I had to get her to the vet when I realised she couldnt do it on her own. $400 NZ later I bought home 2 kittens and a very unimpressed mother. She wouldnt let them anywhere near her. We thought after she recovered from the surgery that she would warm to them but no such luck. She kept trying to escape outside with them...we presume it was to dispose of them. I took over as Mum and we tried to settle her as much as we could until at least the kittens left for new homes but she disowned me by adopting one of our neighbours and never came home. I found great homes for the kittens and tried to entice her home but I dont think she ever forgave me.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Forgot to say - call me paranoid (I'm sure somebody will!) but I'd also advise that you speak to your vet about testing your girl in the not too distant future for FIV and FeLV. If she's been mated it will have been, most likely, by a stray (purely because most pet owners couldn't wouldn't put up with the antics of an unneutered male cat at home) which unfortunately means there is a much higher risk of him carrying these diseases.


She has actually been vacinated for FIV...but will discuss with my Vet on Monday to see if we should have her tested.

She is an indoors cat (not by choice) mind you...but the two boys (both "fixed") are outdoors during the day and tend to get into fights  so they were all vacinated a few months ago.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Wow.. first post and you are already leaving rep - you are quick off the old mark  

As you'll have already seen from the other thread you were reading, people feel very passionately about people having kittens that weren't intended, especially when there are Soooo many unwanted kittens/cats out there right now - just check out how many are on the rescue/adoption page.

Mostly it is youngsters who think it'll be 'fun' but I must say that it certainly seems as though you are taking this seriously, and are thinking about the sensible approach. 

By the very fact that your cat escaped for this to happen, and not because you left a male and a female living together and then gawped at the result, you might have to consider the fact she mated with a cat that isn't 'ideal' - as you have no idea of his personality etc. 

I do admire you for even considering having the kittens terminated though, as this can't be an easy choice. Have you also thought about the added costs etc if you were to go through with the birth - vet fees if something goes wrong, all the extra food/jabs etc? 

I know you say that you already have homes, but I would personally check that again. Many people say 'aren't they cute, I'd have a kitten from her' but when push comes to shove, they weigh up the pros and cons and realise that they can't afford it etc. Just worth checking is all I'm saying.

Let us know what you decide.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> *Actually, I had intended for her to have a litter of kittens but not until she was a few years of age.
> 
> Finding homes for kittens would certainly not be a problem...as friends and family have already expressed massive interest in her kittens regardless of them being pure breed or not. In fact my aunties have always commented on the personalities of my cats...one even asking if I would raise a kitten for her to have back as a cat to inherit the personality my own cats (moggies/pedigres) have had.*
> Im really not keen for her to continue a pregnancy (if she is in fact "knocked" up) as I am concerned that she still has a kitten's life to enjoy and she is still only small. I would also not want to risk losing her or put her through trauma considering she may not being mature enough to go through pregnancy/delivery and then having the babies leave the house. She has an absolute beautiful personality and we love her to bits...and this is by far more important than her EVER having kittens but I would like to know if having her speyed the only way of terminating the pregnancy?
> ...


The bit I have bolded.

I know you say they are interested because of your cats personalities, but truly there will be cats in rescue centres that have equally sweet personalities. Why not encourage your friends and family to help out a rescue centre by adopting one of theirs, and also by giving a sweet little cat/kitten a chance at a new life.

I don't think it's easy for folk to get their head around the fact that letting your cats have kittens (moggies/cross breeds) is contributing to rescue problems. But if you really take the time to think about it you will see what I mean.

If your girl was to have a litter of 4 kittens, that is 4 (at least, because you may have more people interested) cat's or kittens that could be homed from a rescue centre instead. If everyone started doing this, eventually there wouldn't be such a massive problem with overflowing rescue centres. Prevention is always better than the cure, in this case Spaying before she got out would have been ideal, but you do still have a chance with prevention by getting her spayed ASAP.

Having said all that, the last part of your post put a smile on my face. You clearly love her a great deal, so I'm sure you will do the right thing by her and get her spayed, which unfortunately is really the only way to go to ensure your girl doesn't suffer any problems.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

You probably meant 'vaccinated for FeLV' - there is no vaccine for FIV. I'm sure your vet will advise in time scales re testing.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> There are several (hormonal) treatment types for terminating a cat's pregnancy but none are 100% effective; none are completely safe and none are without potentially very unpleasant side effects. I'm sure you wouldn't want to put your lovely girl through that.
> 
> Some (sticking my neck out, I'd say MOST) vets would be very reluctant to terminate a pregnancycy in this way and would try their hardest to steer you towards a spay.


The treatments for terminating which dont involve speying...would they be considered more dangerous and unpleasant than "speying"?

Obviously I will discuss further with my vet in person when he returns from leave.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'd have to honestly say that I've no experience of ever having used hormonal treatments to terminate a cat's pregnancy but the fact that they're used very, very rarely and always as a result of the owner putting enormous pressure on the vet to do so, I think speaks volumes. Their use was also a topic covered by an eminent feline specialist vet and the talk she gave during a seminar I attended left me in no doubt on whether I'd ever consider using them.

Spaying and anesthetics are very, very safe these days. I do understand that it's probably more difficult for you, getting your head around a pregnancy termination which I do understand, particularly if you hold strong beliefs on that issue.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> You probably meant 'vaccinated for FeLV' - there is no vaccine for FIV. I'm sure your vet will advise in time scales re testing.


I understand that FeLV to be Feline Leukaemia Virus and FIV to be Feline Immunodeficiency Virus.

I had my three cats tested and vaccinated against FIV a few months ago after I took my persian to our local vet after a fight and they suggested that he "looked" like he had FIV and said that most persians in NZ have the virus due to poor breeding standards. At first I FREAKED, after talking to another vet and various cat breeders I realised that the first vet was completely out of line to say what he did and after having my boy tested was completely WRONG.

The cats record books are all with our new vet and I can not locate any paperwork...but I do specifically remember talking about Feline Aids...could that be confused with FeLV?

Certainly when I google FIV it seems there is a vaccine...though (like all vaccines) it does not provide 100% protection.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> Thanks...I can appreciate the hard work associated with a mother cat who firstly can not deliver without a cesarean and then just disassociates herself from the kittens.


I wasn't talking about young mums having bonding problems because they had a c-section. The young mums I was referring to all gave birth naturally, but they were just lousy mums. Not their fault at all, they were just bred too young and were not mature enough, either physically or mentally, to be good mums. It's a bit like giving a 13 year old a newborn baby and asking her to care for it 24-7. The mothers themselves are still babies.

Like I said.... if it was my cat I would nto hesistate to neuter. Not just because of the wider rescue crisis.... but for the cat's own wellbeing. It's the kindest thing to do. One of my young mums was never the same after her first litter.... her whole personality changed and she just wasn't the same cat she had been while pregnant. In fact she was a very troublesome cat to rehome at all after the kittens left... she went from a lovely personality cat with no issues... to a cat with a list of issues a mile long.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I'd have to honestly say that I've no experience of ever having used hormonal treatments to terminate a cat's pregnancy but the fact that they're used very, very rarely and always as a result of the owner putting enormous pressure on the vet to do so, I think speaks volumes. *Their use was also a topic covered by an eminent feline specialist vet and the talk she gave during a seminar I attended left me in no doubt on whether I'd ever consider using them.*
> 
> Spaying and anesthetics are very, very safe these days. I do understand that it's probably more difficult for you, getting your head around a pregnancy termination which I do understand, particularly if you hold strong beliefs on that issue.


What about her seminar convinced you that wouldnt consider them?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I'd have to honestly say that I've no experience of ever having used hormonal treatments to terminate a cat's pregnancy but the fact that they're used very, very rarely and always as a result of the owner putting enormous pressure on the vet to do so, I think speaks volumes. Their use was also a topic covered by an eminent feline specialist vet and the talk she gave during a seminar I attended left me in no doubt on whether I'd ever consider using them.


I have to agree..... I have never came across a vet who has performed a chemical abortion (for sake of a better word). It's always been a neuter they have performed. And just for the record... I am talking a good few different countries in 2 different continents.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> Actually, I had intended for her to have a litter of kittens but not until she was a few years of age.


How did you plan to your keep your cat from a)getting pregnant, and b) remaining physically and mentally healthy during those few years????

Having a calling queen in your home, that you can't ever safely let outdoors, the problems with calling alone would be bad enough, and the risk of escape (as you have now found out) are verrrrry high, not to mention the risk of death when a calling (hormone driven) female is allowed outdoors. And what about the chances of pyometra when a female isn't bred with? I don't breed... so I am not 100% sure of my facts, but I thought an adult female cat was either bred with (and the time she is bred is dependant upon her calling cycle) or she was neutered. I am sure if I am wrong someone will correct me. But I am sure I am right in saying it's nowhere as easy as just saying "ohhhh I have a lovely female, I think I will wait till she is 4 years old and let her have 1 litter of kittens". If it was that easy I would have bred years ago, lol.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> there is no vaccine for FIV


Not in the UK perhaps, but the OP is in NZ


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

My apologies. I know the FIV vaccine has been licensed in the US - thinking back to something you said in an earlier post I think you're in New Zealand? Possibly it's licensed there too. To the best of my knowledge it hasn't been licensed in the UK because of its limited efficacy.

On the seminar - it was the three case histories she (Dr Susan Little) quoted. In two queens hormonal treatment prevented the further development of pregnancy but both girls developed pyometra. One died as a result and the other was operated on (spayed) successfully. With a third girl the treatment failed but she aborted a large litter at 7 weeks gestation. She summed up by saying that in her opinion it could never be considered a safe option.

I can't (and wouldn't) tell you what to do but I do strongly suggest you Google the subject if you need any further convincing. Apologies if I'm starting to sound harsh but all I can tell you is it would never be an option for one of my cats.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Tje, I'm sure somebody will come along and say they delayed breeding from their girl until she was 2-3 years old and everything was hunky-dorey; there's always a few exceptions to the rule  In my own long experience and that of breeder/friends who have bred for equally as long it just isn't an option unless you want a queen with a pyo, cystic ovaries, endometritis, emaciation as a result of continual calling, etc, etc.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

FIV vaccine...

Seen & heard - FIV vaccine

It is not 100% effective, actually according to this study its only 67% effective - meaning out of every 100 vaccinated cats that are then exposed to FIV, 33% will become infected.... it also only covers for 2 strains of the virus, a virus found in north america and one in asia... how that effects uk populations i have no idea.

As for the dangers,

1 - how old was she when she was mated? e.g. is she going to be giving birth at 8mo or 11? - this makes quite a difference!
2 - how big was the tom, if they are very disproportionate then there could be some birth problems
3 - kitten mothers have a higher tendany to be less than useless at being a parent to start off with. Some require 24/7 supervision, others require some forced bonding, others abandon their kittens or freak out and kill them... are you prepared for this?
4 - Do you have the funds to pay for an emergeny c-section, take 6 weeks off work to handrear and all the other costs associated with raising a litter of kittens properly.

I would not use chemical abortion for cats, the studies i have read offer to high an incidence of side effects for me to be happy with this. I spey termination is more preferable given the two options.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

gskinner123 said:


> Tje, I'm sure somebody will come along and say they delayed breeding from their girl until she was 2-3 years old and everything was hunky-dorey; there's always a few exceptions to the rule  In my own long experience and that of breeder/friends who have bred for equally as long it just isn't an option unless you want a queen with a pyo, cystic ovaries, endometritis, emaciation as a result of continual calling, etc, etc.


I completely 100% agree! why take that risk!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Tje, I'm sure somebody will come along and say they delayed breeding from their girl until she was 2-3 years old and everything was hunky-dorey; there's always a few exceptions to the rule  In my own long experience and that of breeder/friends who have bred for equally as long it just isn't an option unless you want a queen with a pyo, cystic ovaries, endometritis, emaciation as a result of continual calling, etc, etc.


and you are saying 100% the exact same as every book I have ever read on the subject has told me, and the exact same as every (reputable) breeder has ever told me. "leaving them" for a few years simply isn't an option.... the only safe and ethical options are mate or neuter.

But I also agree ... lol.... no doubt we'll have someone pop in and tell us the one-in-a-million excpetion to the rule that they've experienced, hehe. And that's when I will get my trumpet out and call on the forum band to play "believe it if you like"


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

And not that we're cynical of course. Noooo.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

The research I have done on the risks of pyo are thus:

1 - the risk of pyo (or infact any other uterine infection leading up to full blown pyo) in a queen (maiden or not) increases exponentially with each unmated call
2 - The risks of pyo in a maiden queen increases dramatically one that queen is between the ages of 24-36months
3 - The increase of risk is based on the number of calls not necessarily the age of the queen. A queen who only calls three times a year, is going to be at less risk than your average queen who calls every 4-6 weeks, and in turn your nympho  queens who call every 10 days.
4 - The incidence of pyo is higher after the winter break although only theories aurround why this might be so.
5 - There is a big risk of pyo for each failed mating (a mating which did not result in successful pregnancy)
6 - uterine infection is just as dangerous as pyo (which is usually the next stage) and can present with even fewer symptoms.
7 - cats with a uterine infection can continue to call for a number of months until that infection gets out of controll and becomes a pyo.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

I can understand and respect how staunch many of you are about de-sexing due to your work for the community taking in less fortunate cats....However, You are preaching to the converted. While I realise you have no hard evidence about what/who I am or how happy, contented and healthy the cats are who I share my house with....I honestly think the majority of the replies within this forum are leaning more toward bitter and negative than helpful and supportive. Surely MOST of the people registering to a forum such as this are not the ones causing the problem? So is it really necessary to treat every n00b like one?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> 3 - kitten mothers have a higher tendany to be less than useless at being a parent to start off with. Some require 24/7 supervision, others require some forced bonding, others abandon their kittens or freak out and kill them... are you prepared for this?
> 4 - Do you have the funds to pay for an emergeny c-section, take 6 weeks off work to handrear and all the other costs associated with raising a litter of kittens properly.


I just wanted to reference this and say these two points stated by BBM.... I have have personal experience of every single thing she says could happen. And more even. Most folks on here know I often foster orphan kittens... and work wise, while orphan kittens are a LOT of work, that has paled in comparisson to the work I have had with a couple of my very immature mums. The mother can absolutely 100% be more of a hinderance than a help. But it goes further than just being a hinderance, she can be a downright liabilty and danger to her kittens. It took me a lot more time and energy to coach her into feding and cleaning than it would have done if I had just taken over 100%. I have raised many kittens, most orphans, and I have had around up to 10 orphans at any one time. However the most work I have EVER had was one immature mother with 4 kittens and another immature mother with 7. There's not much in the cat rescue world that I run from (that scares me) but an immature mum with kittens does. If my shelter phoned me today and gave me the choice of
a) an 8 month old mum with 3 kittens, or
b) 6 orphans kittens...

I am ashamed to say from a purely selfish standpoint (selfish being - I do actually quite like 2 hours of unbroken sleep daily and a 3 minute shower every day, and now and again to actually be able to get out of my pjs and put some clothes on, and eat a dinner at a normal time) I would choose option B.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I'm not being negative just to be difficult. You asked what the implications and risks were for your cat, which i have given. You also mentioned leaving it a few years before you breed from her... again I have given you those risks.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Tje said:


> I just wanted to reference this and say these two points stated by BBM.... I have have personal experience of every single thing she says could happen. And more even. Most folks on here know I often foster orphan kittens... and work wise, while orphan kittens are a LOT of work, that has paled in comparisson to the work I have had with a couple of my very immature mums. The mother can absolutely 100% be more of a hinderance than a help. But it goes further than just being a hinderance, she can be a downright liabilty and danger to her kittens. It took me a lot more time and energy to coach her into feding and cleaning than it would have done if I had just taken over 100%. I have raised many kittens, most orphans, and I have had around up to 10 orphans at any one time. However the most work I have EVER had was one immature mother with 4 kittens and another immature mother with 7. There's not much in the cat rescue world that I run from (that scares me) but an immature mum with kittens does. If my shelter phoned me today and gave me the choice of
> a) an 8 month old mum with 3 kittens, or
> b) 6 orphans kittens...
> 
> I am ashamed to say from a purely selfish standpoint (selfish being - I do actually quite like 2 hours of unbroken sleep daily and a 3 minute shower every day, and now and again to actually be able to get out of my pjs and put some clothes on, and eat a dinner at a normal time) I would choose option B.


Yep, as you know my latest litter of fosters is from a kitten mother. I can hand on heart say that they can be so much more work than handrearing 100%.

Eventually this mother of mine has turned a corner and has proven to be good, but that wasnt without 3 weeks of pure hell, and some serious ups and downs with this litter.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I just wanted to confirm something to the OP.

If you choose termination, then if she is far enough along that the kittens would be viable (or at least born alive) then they would be PTS immediatly as they are born.

If she is early enough along, then the embryo's wont even have implanted yet.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> I can understand and respect how staunch many of you are about de-sexing due to your work for the community taking in less fortunate cats....However, You are preaching to the converted. While I realise you have no hard evidence about what/who I am or how happy, contented and healthy the cats are who I share my house with....I honestly think the majority of the replies within this forum are leaning more toward bitter and negative than helpful and supportive. Surely MOST of the people registering to a forum such as this are not the ones causing the problem? So is it really necessary to treat every n00b like one?


I already stated categorically in an earlier post that I was basing my opinion not soley on the feline-over population problem.... but mainly on the welfare of the cat (immature kitten mum). I explained the problems I have encountered with immature mums. I have explained the effect pregnancies can have on their rearing of their offspring and on their later bahvioural devlopement and temperament.

Does that make me "bitter and negative" or just "experienced and honest" ?

By telling you the truth and reality of the matter I do think I am being supportive and helpful !!

I think you need to get realistic and admit that what you are actually looking from us is confirmation that the decision you have most likely already reached is the right one. You are not looking for genuine opinions from experienced people, because those opinions based on experience are contradicting the decision you have already reached.

You want support, yes, but you want unthinking support.

I really hope you don't get that in here.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> I can understand and respect how staunch many of you are about de-sexing due to your work for the community taking in less fortunate cats....However, You are preaching to the converted. While I realise you have no hard evidence about what/who I am or how happy, contented and healthy the cats are who I share my house with....I honestly think the majority of the replies within this forum are leaning more toward bitter and negative than helpful and supportive. Surely MOST of the people registering to a forum such as this are not the ones causing the problem? So is it really necessary to treat every n00b like one?


I not sure what you mean by this as I think everyone has been very fair and imformative on this thread


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Your idea of bitter and negative is obviously very different to mine. You asked for some opinions on the best way forwards for your girl... and you got them. I'm tempted to think that because they weren't the answers you wanted to hear that you're now unhappy? 

Your girl won't remain, I quote, "happy, contented and healthy" for too much longer in future if: she's again left to call continuously until you feel like having a litter from her and you aren't a little more careful in preventing her from escaping. And God forbid your vet is weak minded enough to agree to hormonal intervention at your insistence.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

Well obviously you lot are hell bent on ridding the world of kittens...perhaps they should make a movie about it, Im not sure you would fill the typical bad guys shoes but hey its NEW.

Prfft to you all...I plan to breed from her and "plan" it with an experienced breeder once she is older than a year. But thanks a lot for making out like Im going to pimp her out for years and years until she old and fragile or karks it.

Get off your thrones and consider how bitter and twisted you sound.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Nope. Just hell bent on giving some advice to someone who needs it (no offence, but you did come here asking) for the ultimate benefit of the cat.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Tje said:


> Does that make me "bitter and negative" or just "experienced and honest" ?


 Experienced and honest - as always Tje! 



GreyHare said:


> I think everyone has been very fair and imformative on this thread


 I agree



gskinner123 said:


> I'm tempted to think that because they weren't the answers you wanted to hear that you're now unhappy?


Also agree



j4ynie said:


> Get off your thrones and consider how bitter and twisted you sound.


 Oh dear. Goodbye...


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

j4ynie said:


> Well obviously you lot are hell bent on ridding the world of kittens...perhaps they should make a movie about it, Im not sure you would fill the typical bad guys shoes but hey its NEW.
> 
> Prfft to you all...I plan to breed from her and "plan" it with an experienced breeder once she is older than a year. But thanks a lot for making out like Im going to pimp her out for years and years until she old and fragile or karks it.
> 
> Get off your thrones and consider how bitter and twisted you sound.


what does prfft mean


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

Here are my questions and a summary of the answers I was given...

*Metally and Physically what changes/damage could occur from her having kittens so young?*
Majority Answered YES!!!! so you should DESEX

*What is the best age for a cat to become a mother? *
Majority Answered - If she isnt having babies she could die so DESEX

*What are my options to terminate if she is pregnant..are there any date restrictions etc?*
Majority Answered No restrictions - just so long as you DESEX

Thanks for the Roasting...NOT:thumbup:


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> what does prfft mean


I think it means 'screw you lot, I'm going to throw my toys out the pram because I wasn't told what I wanted to be told'

Ignorance is bliss.. or so I hear


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

GreyHare said:


> I not sure what you mean by this as I think everyone has been very fair and imformative on this thread





gskinner123 said:


> Your idea of bitter and negative is obviously very different to mine. You asked for some opinions on the best way forwards for your girl... and you got them. I'm tempted to think that because they weren't the answers you wanted to hear that you're now unhappy?


I really wish some posters would just be honest and say

*"I am not really looking for help and advice from people who have been there and done that I am looking for people agree with me and tell me I am doing the right thing". *

That way I would actually have saved myself a bit of time and energy this morning, because I did actually *genuinely think *I was offering help based on my experience of young kitten mums.

I am the first to refer people asking questions to the members of the forum who breed because I really dont know much about breeding and cant offer that much help in that department. And even questions about rearing kittens, I always add a disclaimer that the kittens I rear cant always be compared to the kittens that GSkinner, or Lizward or Aurelia or Tellingtales or Havoc rears (their queens are in tip top condition and pregnancies are planned, and the queens are the proper ages) my queens are sometimes in poor shape and they are always opps litters and they are often very young. So one thing I do have quite a bit of experience with, probably more than the breeders have. Is dealing with the litters that kitten mums produce.

I can really get quite pissed off at times on this forum that people ask for advice, get given good, sound, experience based advice, then they call you bitter and twisted and for being honest and realistic.

OP... please don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

archiebaby said:


> what does prfft mean


Its the noise you make when you purse your lips together and blow through just a little at the front...similar to a raspberry but not as abrasive.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

thelioncub said:


> I think it means 'screw you lot, I'm going to throw my toys out the pram because I wasn't told what I wanted to be told"


LOL. :thumbup:

If I add my own grrrrrrrarrrggfttttbiiiibooooo to the OP, please don't translate it, it will get me banned


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> what does prfft mean


its the noise you make when you do this:


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

Tje said:


> I really wish some posters would just be honest and say
> 
> *"I am not really looking for help and advice from people who have been there and done that I am looking for people agree with me and tell me I am doing the right thing". *
> 
> ...


NO...its not that you didnt give the advice I wanted....its the PREACHING and tooting of your own horns that goes along with it and the condascending way in which your responses have been given.

"Ooooh I havent slept in 60 hours, I dont wash my hair, Im the crazy cat lady in my neighbourhood...all my money is spent on fostering cats and its because of people like YOU who dont DESEX your cats"


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> its the noise you make when you do this:
> QUOTE]
> 
> No thats a raspberry...like I said its not that abrasive.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

Grrrr (see I can make noises too ) but all out of rep for you guys 

J4ynie please allow your young kitten to have kittens as this is what you want and you just wanted posters to say 'dear dear never mind it'll all be ok' I hope for *kittens* sake that it is :frown:


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

j4ynie said:


> "Ooooh I havent slept in 60 hours, I dont wash my hair, Im the crazy cat lady in my neighbourhood...all my money is spent on fostering cats and its because of people like YOU who dont DESEX your cats"


WTF? WHERE did that come from?

Truly losing the will to live with this thread. :mad2:


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

why do I keep getting referred to as OP?


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

thelioncub said:


> WTF? WHERE did that come from?
> 
> Truly losing the will to live with this thread. :mad2:


What a surprise....is that your challenge in life to turn every thread into an argument?


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> why do I keep getting referred to as OP?


Original Poster


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

GreyHare said:


> Grrrr (see I can make noises too ) but all out of rep for you guys
> 
> J4ynie please allow your young kitten to have kittens as this is what you want and you just wanted posters to say 'dear dear never mind it'll all be ok' I hope for *kittens* sake that it is :frown:


No thats not what I wanted at all...I wanted to know if there were ways of terminating without desexing!


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

j4ynie said:


> What a surprise....is that your challenge in life to turn every thread into an argument?


Seriously uncalled for imo. Read everything I said - I actually said I had RESPECT for you! (even when the first thing you did after joining this forum is to leave me bad rep)

You've lost credibility just in your last few posts tbh.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> Here are my questions and a summary of the answers I was given...
> 
> *Metally and Physically what changes/damage could occur from her having kittens so young?*
> Majority Answered YES!!!! so you should DESEX
> ...


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> No thats not what I wanted at all...I wanted to know if there were ways of terminating without desexing!


Which has been answered but obviously not to your liking, so you've gotten all defensive rude and personal, whilst acusing everyone of jumping on you and being judgemental and harsh :rolleyes5:


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> Well obviously you lot are hell bent on ridding the world of kittens....


ohhh yessssssss.... of course that's my sole aim in life. Ridding the world of kittens. That's why I foster orphan kittens. That's exactly why I have spent 22 years of my life fostering cats and kittens. I hate them! I hate them so much I go 5 weeks without sleep. I dislike kittens so much I turn my home over to them. I dislike them so much have cancelled holidays to look after them. I hate them so much I spend a great deal of my disposable income on them. I dislike them soooo much that I spent a night recently with a 3 week old bottle fed orphan kitten with feline-meningitis, he was having fits and convulsions and was in extreme pain and screaming in the most god awful way that I actually debated smothering him as he was in so much agony. I hated him sooo much drove 40km in a torrential rain at 3am on a Sunday morning, got given a speeding ticket for 60euros just to get him to a vet for emergency treatment. That he died is irrelevant. It's par for the course. I hate kittens so much that my nephew from Scotland, his wife, and their two kids can't come to stay with me because my spare bedroom doesn't actually have a bed or a wardrobe anymore. It does however have a feeding station, a kittening pen, heat lamps, cat trees, kitten hammocks and climbing frames in it, oh and lets no forget the bars on my windows throughout my whole house that forum members often get a good laugh at. Pity my nephews family can't sleep in a cat tree or a kitten pen, then I could maybe actually have visitors.

So yessssssssssssssssss you are so right... I am hell bent on ridding the world of kittens.

You're hell bent on a having a row and acting like a troll.

So Troll.... tata..... there's other trolls and morons on the forum where I can have as much fun wasting my time with.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> No thats not what I wanted at all...I wanted to know if there were ways of terminating without desexing!


And didn't I tell you? And didn't you totally ignore what I said? Hey, listen, you don't have to take it on board but please remember you were the one who came asking the questions


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

j4ynie said:


> why do I keep getting referred to as OP?


original poster/opening poster

In my first post on the thread i asked you some questions so that i could essentially give you some of the real risks for your cat, you havent yet answered these.

I and noone else can predict the future, your cat may well have a healthy litter of 4, raise them properly and they are found wonderful homes where they will be cherished and not add to the shelter population.

However this is an alternative scenario.

Queen has difficult labour and freaks out at every kitten. Refuses to nurse them, so you are left trying to make her bond whilst topping up their milk (and trying to get them to suckle - a fine balancing act as milk is supply and demand based), cleaning the kittens whilst encouraging her to, watching her every move incase she kills/smothers one. Queen develops an infection (pyo or mastitis) which further hinders your bonding attempts, and you lose the first kitten due to inexperience with handrearing or simply through fading. Queens antibiotics effect her milk supply and so your have to admit defeat and handrear solely, however its at this point she decides she wants her babies. So now you have a queen stressed out every time you go near her babies to feed them. Her defensiveness results in a nasty bite to your hand, and another dead kitten that she smothers trying to protect them. 3 weeks old now and kitten number 3 starts to lose weight, another trip to the vets and its put on medication and a drip. Eventually you lsoe this kitten to. Your last kitten is doing well, and you seem to be out of the woods, a bout of conjunctivitis sets you back another few quid but eventually he is ready for his vaccinations and new home. All in all this litter with the trips to the vets, has cost you hundreds of pounds and thousands of tears as you struggled to keep them alive. Kitten goes to a lovely new home but also sneaks out and gets pregnant at 7mo... and so the cycle continues.

Still feel ready for this?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> NO...its not that you didnt give the advice I wanted....its the PREACHING and tooting of your own horns that goes along with it and the condascending way in which your responses have been given.
> 
> "Ooooh I havent slept in 60 hours, I dont wash my hair, Im the crazy cat lady in my neighbourhood...all my money is spent on fostering cats and its because of people like YOU who dont DESEX your cats"


hey sweetie... none of my cats have ever got accidentally pregnant. I just mop up the mess that irresponsible idiot cat owners like you create. 

I suppose in one respect I should be grateful to you and your ilk... without you I would have had wayyyy to much free time on my hands.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> its the noise you make when you do this:


lmao well you learn something new everyday at least some of us do


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

Tje said:


> hey sweetie... none of my cats have ever got accidentally pregnant. I just mop up the mess that irresponsible idiot cat owners like you create.
> 
> I suppose in one respect I should be grateful to you and your ilk... without you I would have had wayyyy to much free time on my hands.


Gosh just think you could wash your hair with all that spare time


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Ladies and Gentlemen, can I just take this opportunity to publically thank the OP for leaving me negative rep. 

I am sure you are all aware that this negative rep will cause me countless sleepless nights and untold heartbreak and soul searching. I live for positive reps. 

I am devastated and distraught and that horrible coloured little blob spoiling my otherwise perfect green blobbed profile. 

I could have handled an insult from a reputable poster, or neg rep from BBM or PaddyPaws. 

but to be insulted, and negative repped by our latest forum troll  both in one day..

it is all too much for me

someone please put me out of my misery and shoot me. You know its the kindest thing to do.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

Im sure less time spent online tooting your own horn would spare some time up


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

Tje said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen, can I just take this opportunity to publically thank the OP for leaving me negative rep.
> 
> I am sure you are all aware that this negative rep will cause me countless sleepless nights and untold heartbreak and soul searching. I live for positive reps.
> 
> ...


 You too  I was 'nasty' for wishing her well and allowing her kitten to have kittens


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

j4ynie - Scorpio by any chance? Never are the easiest star sign in the world.. Lol.. not that I believe in all that.
Just trying to lighten things up for the non-troll'ish members


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> I can understand and respect how staunch many of you are about de-sexing due to your work for the community taking in less fortunate cats....However, You are preaching to the converted. While I realise you have no hard evidence about what/who I am or how happy, contented and healthy the cats are who I share my house with....I honestly think the majority of the replies within this forum are leaning more toward bitter and negative than helpful and supportive. Surely MOST of the people registering to a forum such as this are not the ones causing the problem? So is it really necessary to treat every n00b like one?


Now this just sounds to me like it should be translated:

But whhhhhhy, I want cute kittens. Please say it would be crueler to terminate, and give me some tips on how I can prevent it costing me a forutne in vet fee's should things go wrong.



j4ynie said:


> Well obviously you lot are hell bent on ridding the world of kittens...perhaps they should make a movie about it, Im not sure you would fill the typical bad guys shoes but hey its NEW.
> 
> Prfft to you all...I plan to breed from her and "plan" it with an experienced breeder once she is older than a year. But thanks a lot for making out like Im going to pimp her out for years and years until she old and fragile or karks it.
> 
> Get off your thrones and consider how bitter and twisted you sound.


Excuse me please. I'm a breeder of BSH. I have just this year experienced my first litter with my girl. It was a magical experience. But also a pricey one.

Breeding responsibly not only means you're not adding to the moggie rescue centre problem, but it also mean you are doing your level best to help breed out illness in cats (many other reasons too, but these two are the most obvious).

By letting (and you did let her) you cat get out while she was in call, she has mated with an unknown Tom, who could carry anything. From disease to hereditary conditions. If you truly want us to believe you wanted at some stage to be a responsible breeder, then you should know what you need to do here. But instead you ask ... and don't like the honest answers from experienced breeders and foster/rescue workers alike.



j4ynie said:


> Here are my questions and a summary of the answers I was given...
> 
> *Metally and Physically what changes/damage could occur from her having kittens so young?*
> Majority Answered YES!!!! so you should DESEX
> ...


No one has given you a roasting up until you kicked off, just advice and information. Remember you are the OP, *YOU* asked the questions in the first place



j4ynie said:


> NO...its not that you didnt give the advice I wanted....its the PREACHING and tooting of your own horns that goes along with it and the condascending way in which your responses have been given.
> 
> *"Ooooh I havent slept in 60 hours, I dont wash my hair, Im the crazy cat lady in my neighbourhood...all my money is spent on fostering cats and its because of people like YOU who dont DESEX your cats*"


Now that's just down right rude


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Tje said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen, can I just take this opportunity to publically thank the OP for leaving me negative rep.
> 
> I am sure you are all aware that this negative rep will cause me countless sleepless nights and untold heartbreak and soul searching. I live for positive reps.
> 
> ...


 I didn't get one for once :thumbup:


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

I have no problem paying vet bills.

I do NOT want her to have kittens this young.

I would prefer NOT to have her speyed.

I wanted to know my options...not to be preached to and staunched out.

I tried to respectfully point out that your posts are condescending and negative.


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

Aurelia said:


> I didn't get one for once :thumbup:


Don't speak too soon lovely! People like this will strike out at anyone in the way!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> Im sure less time spent online tooting your own horn would spare some time up


and maybe if you spent less time online, and looked after your kitten properly instead, she would never have became a pregnant kitten in the first place. :thumbup:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

aww the red pretties it up a bit!

My favourite colour of rep is the purple/bluey one... that means its a new member who i have helped in some way and makes my day!

Other than that, red and green.... seems like christmas! :lol:


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

thelioncub said:


> Don't speak too soon lovely! People like this will strike out at anyone in the way!


Strike out in anyone in my way?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

j4ynie said:


> I have no problem paying vet bills.
> 
> I do NOT want her to have kittens this young.
> 
> ...


if you do not want her to have this litter you have 2 options

1 - get her speyed
2 - find a vet who is willing to do a chemical termination. Be prepared for the side effects.


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## j4ynie (Oct 15, 2010)

Tje said:


> and maybe if you spent less time online, and looked after your kitten properly instead, she would never have became a pregnant kitten in the first place. :thumbup:


Wow! I have spent the last 15 years of my life using Forums and I dont think I have ever come across one so nasty.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> I have no problem paying vet bills.
> 
> I do NOT want her to have kittens this young.
> 
> ...


You now know your options. None are perfect. Two options put your cat's health, if not life, at risk and the third option doesn't fit with your plans but is by far and away the safest for your little cat. It's a choice that's yours to make.


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## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> Wow! I have spent the last 15 years of my life using Forums and I dont think I have ever come across one so nasty.


Are you kidding? :lol: Go back and see where it started. After *YOU* started being nasty.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> I tried to respectfully point out that your posts are condescending and negative.


roflmao.... if this thread is your efforts at "respectfully pointing things out" .... I would really like to see you when you throw caution to the wind:thumbup:

did you go to the Idi Amin Charm School, were you in the same class as Robert Mugabe????


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

j4ynie said:


> Wow! I have spent the last 15 years of my life using Forums and I dont think I have ever come across one so nasty.


see.... that was exactly my point. You should have used just 15 of those minutes and just looked after your young kitten and prevented her getting pregant


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## thelioncub (Feb 9, 2009)

j4ynie said:


> Wow! I have spent the last 15 years of my life using Forums and I dont think I have ever come across one so nasty.


15 years on forums and you've never come across the term OP - now THAT surprises me. 

I think you really do have some fantastic replies in here, which you should be grateful for seeing as you are a new member and have not even said hello before you went straight in and asked for advice. (I don't mean that to sound spiteful - just making the point that it's often hard to trust new members, and no-one *had* to reply at all - then you would have learnt nothing)

People have taken the time and effort to reply to you in a fair way, but it is a shame that it now looks as though you are not listening to any of it.

For everyone's sake, perhaps you need to take some time out, then come back to this thread when you feel capable of reading the advice without getting annoyed.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

j4ynie said:


> Actually, I had intended for her to have a litter of kittens but *not until she was a few years of age*.
> 
> Finding homes for kittens would certainly not be a problem...as friends and family have already expressed massive interest in her kittens regardless of them being pure breed or not. In fact my aunties have always commented on the personalities of my cats...one even asking if I would raise a kitten for her to have back as a cat to inherit the personality my own cats (moggies/pedigres) have had.
> 
> ...


glad someone else brought this up!!!! :scared:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I am closing this thread as it is getting way out of control. Original Poster you have been given some very sound advice it is now up to you and your vet to make the decision for your kitten. Good Luck on whatever decisions you make. ...To all those that gave advise and scenarios Thank You ....Jill


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