# Almost at wit's end with Golden pup



## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Hi

I have had a golden retriever bitch pup for 3 weeks. I am not a new dog owner, having had 3 King Charles Cavaliers and 2 German Shepherd's in the past. I am also far more informed about puppy behaviour than I have ever been. Clearly though I was not prepared for just how challenging it could be. I am beginning to worry about my pup because, if her behaviour continues as it is into adulthood, her chance of staying with us is close to zero.

Where to start,

Mouthing/Chewing/Biting - All pups chew. I get that. My golden chews and she does so relentlessly. Despite having numerous chew toys she will chew anything; clothes, shoes, wood, concrete, the walls, anything. This is annoying but not a core concern. The mouthing/biting however is. Unless my pup is very tired, she will mouth/bite any hand that tries to stroke her. It's not an aggressive action, but it is incessant. I cannot pet her without her trying to bite my hand, and barking at me if I refuse. Her bites are hard. Not hard enough to break the skin (usually, but more on that later) but hard enough to be painful. From Day One, I have practised Bite Inhibition techniques - yelping in a high pitch and withdrawing attention when she bites too hard. It has an effect but not the one I expected. She will instantly release, become more annoyed and bark loudly at me, then lunge/jump to grab onto whatever clothing she can, this time with even more purpose. My yelp appears to fuel her aggression not quell it. My arms and lower legs are criss-crossed with scratch marks from her teeth and claws. In 3 weeks her bites remain as forceful as ever, despite my best efforts to curb them.

Barking - Coupled with the above this is her other default behaviour. I play with her in an attempt to tire and defuse her but if I stop or refuse, she will start barking, bark after bark after bark, until I tell her to stop (works only momentarily) or I continue the game. The barking works her into more of a frenzy so games become more painful affairs. Like most dogs, she loves to tug on anything that I resist against, and I do this often (again to try and tire her out) but she gets more and more frenzied, especially if I put in more effort. During this time she growls constantly, lips back, teeth in full view. When the toy, or whatever it is, slips from her bite she lunges forward forcefully and snaps hard to get it back. On numerous occasions she snaps wildly at anything and has sometimes caught my hand or leg with true force, easily enough to break the skin. This worries me greatly. She is 10 weeks old and weighs just over 7kg. Imagine a 20+kg dog doing the same with fully developed teeth and jaws. You get the picture. In addition to the "play" barking she will also bark incessantly whenever someone is eating. We never feed her scraps but it doesn't deter her. Early on, when this behaviour started, I would warn her with a "going out" command - ie if you don't stop you're going out of the room. She would continue and sure enough I would shut her out of the room and she would bark/whine at me through the glass of the door. Now when I say it, again it only fuels her anger. Rather than stopping her bark, it intensifies it.

The Mad Hour - As if that wasn't enough. 2 or 3 times a day, usually mid morning, mid afternoon and just before bedtime she appears to enter a hell-zone of barking & biting, a rave like behaviour. If she's outside this manifests itself as break neck running around the garden, in a madcap, mindless pattern. Playing with her during these times is asking for a very painful experience. At first I thought this might be a sugar rush (the breeder had fed her a few weetabix for breakfast the week before she came to me, a practice I stopped) but now it just seems a mental state.

And this is a Golden Retriever, the breed that is supposed to be so gentle and loving; the reason I brought her ion the first place. I have a friend with a 1 year old baby and despite the "great with kids/babies" tag, I would *never* let my pup anywhere near her. The results could be truly awful.

On the positive side. When we go out (she hasn't had her full shots yet so I carry her everywhere), the change of scenery overwhelms her into calmness. She will sit on a bus quietly, on my lap outside a cafe calmly etc etc,. I am praying that when I'm actually able to walk her, this will quell her bad behaviour. I have done my best to socialise her early. She has met many passers by, strangers, family and friends, probably 50 or so people so far, as well as several other dogs.

The pup is from a reputable home and I met her mum, a dog of such calmness I cannot imagine what has gone wrong (of course, the mum could've been in a quiet moment just before/after her own Mad Hour, who knows)

Any help greatly appreciated. I'm going out of my mind.
Andrew

ps. I have to assume the dog is not seriously suffering a mental illness atm, though I have certainly thought she might be.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Your pup is not suffering from a serious mental illness, nor is she aggressive.

Her behaviour, the nipping/biting and the barking is over excitement. Making a loud yelping noise is no doubt fuelling that.

If her behaviour becomes too much, remove her to another room and give her time to calm down. The barking is a behaviour our Staffy pup had and I found the best way was to turn and walk away from her.

She will grow out of this behaviour, but you need to be calm and take control.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Thanks for the comments.

I can do the remove to another room, no problem. But the take control aspect is harder to interpret. What does that entail, how do I "take control"?

Thanks.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Sounds like a normal puppy to me. She's a retriever, and therefore has an innate need to have something in her mouth pretty much all the time. You need to ensure she has plenty of suitable things to chew on and carry around - always have something available near you so you can direct her to something appropriate to mouth. She's also probably bored. Use her food for training - don't waste the opportunity to reinforce good behaviour by pouring her food into a bowl. Make sure she earns every single piece of kibble by playing impulse control games or rewarding her good choices. You can scatter the food in the garden, or stuff it into a treat dispenser if you want to occupy her for a longer period. Sniffing out and working for food is also a calming activity that will tire her out and stop the boredom.
Biting is normal. If you squeal it probably makes her more excited. Instead make sure you have a toy nearby, totally ignore her (even go and stand in a corner). As soon as she stops reward with fun play! If she bites you while you are ignoring her just leave the room for about one minute to try and calm her down. 
When you can walk her she will probably calm a bit, but you need to keep her mentally exercised as well as physically. Lots of brain games and fun training will ensure she is mentally tired and it will also help you bond.
Puppies are hard work!


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> Sounds like a normal puppy to me. She's a retriever, and therefore has an innate need to have something in her mouth pretty much all the time. You need to ensure she has plenty of suitable things to chew on and carry around - always have something available near you so you can direct her to something appropriate to mouth. She's also probably bored. Use her food for training - don't waste the opportunity to reinforce good behaviour by pouring her food into a bowl. Make sure she earns every single piece of kibble by playing impulse control games or rewarding her good choices. You can scatter the food in the garden, or stuff it into a treat dispenser if you want to occupy her for a longer period. Sniffing out and working for food is also a calming activity that will tire her out and stop the boredom.
> Biting is normal. If you squeal it probably makes her more excited. Instead make sure you have a toy nearby, totally ignore her (even go and stand in a corner). As soon as she stops reward with fun play! If she bites you while you are ignoring her just leave the room for about one minute to try and calm her down.
> When you can walk her she will probably calm a bit, but you need to keep her mentally exercised as well as physically. Lots of brain games and fun training will ensure she is mentally tired and it will also help you bond.
> Puppies are hard work!


Thanks, Sarah. That's great advice. Are there any resources you could direct me to regarding mental stimulation? I've got no idea what games to play with her to do that. I did buy her a kong puppy toy. It kindof works but the hole is so damn big her treats come out of it in seconds - she eats them, then moves on!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> Thanks, Sarah. That's great advice. Are there any resources you could direct me to regarding mental stimulation? I've got no idea what games to play with her to do that. I did buy her a kong puppy toy. It kindof works but the hole is so damn big her treats come out of it in seconds - she eats them, then moves on!


Best way to stuff a kong is with wet meat, or soak kibble then stuff it and freeze it. Are you on Facebook? If so there's a great page called Canine Enrichment https://www.facebook.com/groups/canineenrichment/ This has loads of ideas. There are lots of toys that can keep her busy whilst working her brain, just pop into your local pet shop or Pets at Home and ask. In fact just a quick Google and you could probably find some ideas. Mix it up and make her work for it. It sounds mean but it's much better for her, and your relationship in the long run. Dogs LOVE to work for their food, so just harness her natural need to work by making her earn her dinner.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

You remind me of myself when we got our first rottie several years ago. We were not inexperienced owners either but had never encountered such a persistent mouther before. I also went through the "he is only 5 or 10 kg now, what will he be like when he is 40-50 kg if I don't get him under control", I can honestly say I started to dislike him until a lovely lady who became a good friend gave me a talking to. All dogs/pups are different but I think we do have a tendency to compare, the dog I lost before getting him was a german shepherd and had been the easiest pup so I was constantly saying/thinking my GSD would not have done that, why can't you be more like him. Looking back I can't believe I was like that :Shamefullyembarrased:Shamefullyembarrased. The way we dealt with it was as @Sarah H suggested, always have something close by to stick in their mouth, find out what works for your pup, one of mine liked to carry a ball with a handle (Jolly Ball) whereas the other liked a soft rabbit fur tuggie toy on a long string. We also stopped play as soon as pup was getting over stimulated or bitey, preferably just before. Ouch never worked for us, just got them more excited so we used time outs behind a baby gate in the kitchen. The other thing I did a lot was ask for an alternative behaviour and reward that so for instance putting his collar on was apparently time to bite our hands so to preempt this I would ask for a sit and give a big reward and while pup is eating that the collar would go on with no fuss. That is just an example - we used that method for all sorts of things. I found once I made some headway I started to like him a lot more and things really fell into place more once proper walks started  You will get there, it just sounds like your pup is more of a challenge for you than your previous dogs.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Look at Kikopup and positively.com for some tips.

I'm afraid it's normal puppy behaviour - how we deal with it moulds the type of adult dog we end up with.

It's a balance between enough exercise, play and stimulation without fizzing them up even more, couple with enough rest and settling time. A tired pup will turn into a monster.

Hold on to the thought that it's temporary


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

There's a line - sometimes a fine one, sometimes not - between tiring a pup out and winding them up. A brain game will be more tiring than tug, and less likely to wind pup up. With my pups, any over-tired bitey-ness would result in a trip to their crates for a nap. They'd go straight to sleep and wake up an hour or so later with all their sweetness restored.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Welcome to the wonderful world of golden retrievers.

What you have described is normal behaviour for golden puppies, in fact many puppies behave in this ott don't know what to do next so I'll bite and chew manner, I'm afraid this is normal daft puppy behaviour something that has to be endured until you have managed to teach the pup some manners.

Mine was an absolute horror for biting me and seemed to think that sleep was only for nighttime and she generally behaved like a hyperactive toddler during the day. I found that the best way to deal with the biting was to stand up, go and stand in the corner of the room nose firmly pressed to the wall and arms folded and totally ignore her. Yes she jumpers up to get my attention, I wore tough jeans, she yapped and pulled at my clothes, but I still ignored her. If she got too bad then I said 'that's enough' and walked out to the room and left her for a short time and I did this every single time she tried to nip me, it's the only thing that really works. But you must be absolutely consistent and very persistent. They are intelligent dogs and soon work out that biting means attention stops and you leave, it they will also work out that sometimes they can keep biting if you dont do it every time. 


When your pup is playing tug what you have described is perfectly normal, my four year old retriever does the same thing, it's a play growl, nothing nasty or viscous, and she is a dog that rarely barks and doesn't growl.

I found clicker training very beneficial to my pup and started her on the clicker round about 10 weeks. Goldens are normally very food motivated, all mine have been, and even the thought of a tiny morsel of food is enough for them to try and do what you want. The first thing I taught was to not mug the hand (as Kikopup puts it) if I could find the video I would give the link. Basically you hold a treat in your fist and offer that to the pup. Pup will immediately start licking nibbling even pawing at the fist to get the treat, you wait patiently. Eventually pup will stop trying to get at the treat and will withdraw from the fist and that is when you click the clicker and give the treat. What you are looking for is when pup stops trying to get the treat and waits for you to give the treat. Keep repeating this until you can offer your fist, with the treat, and the pup doesn't even bother to try the nibbling, biting and licking the hand, but sits and waits u til the click is given and the treat can be handed over. I found this worked so well that it was largely responsible for her to start to not bite my hands.

I guess your pup is about 11 weeks? By about 14 weeks the biting, if you follow what we have all been telling you, will reduce and finally stop a few weeks later and your horrible little monster will start to turn into the wonderful dog that is the golden retriever and yes, they are gentle and loving dogs.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

all puppies are different, I thought we were lucky with Bonnie our golden who never mouthed or bit as a puppy. Then our next puppy after Amber was Teddy who shocked us with his biting. They grow out of it and once you get her out walking she should be calmer inside the house.


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## Jocky San (Jun 3, 2017)

If you're interested, read my post on this subject. We were at our wits end with behaviour which seemed beyond the norm. There is puppy behaviour, and then there's a dog with a personality trying to find out where the boundaries are. Only advice I can give is the same given to me: be realistic in your timescales, you only have a real problem if this continues beyond the puppy age.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

As they grow. you will often wonder if this dog is more intelligent than you are. Staying one step ahead is imperative or you are lost..........haha


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Thank you for all the help and suggestions.

It's only been a few days since my initial post so unsurprisingly there has been no change in her behaviour. It is exactly 3 weeks to the day that I got her. The last 2 weeks have been the most challenging and miserable time I've had with a dog.

Today's morning mad hour was the worst so far. It began as normal. Waking up approx 6.30am for wee time and breakfast. This is one routine she does do well. Went out, did her business, then came back in for breakfast. Then straight for my hands and arms. I've taken to wrapping a cloth around my hand to save me from more bites. She didn't like this however, and sought out flesh further up my arm and leap for my uncovered hand whenever it came into view. Substitution with chew toys just made her bark and growl more. So far all pretty standard, but as time went by, she got more aggressive so I put her into another room to calm done, have sad NO to her repeatedly over and over, which btw just incensed her more. Once shut out she started to bark and carried on doing so for 2 to 3 mins. Once she finally stopped I let her back in. She instantly jumped for my arm, caught my sleeve and started growling and pulling hard. I substituted chew toy. As I withdrew she barked and lunged for my arm again. I started the stern NO, all to no avail, and after a rough few mins and more NOs I put her out again. The barking cycle began again. This cycle played out 3 or 4 times and in desperation I just put her out back into the garden. Was now approx an hour since she woke up.

In the garden she has two default modes, one is furious digging which I'm not too bothered about, the other is going where she shouldn't. At the bottom of the garden I have a fenced off area where there are a few raised beds and veggies. I put the fence there to prevent her access. It worked for a week but now she is big enough to jump the fence. Every time she does I tell her no, pick her up, and put her back on the right side of the fence. I may just as well be saying "yes, good girl" and giving her a treat every time because today, over the course of 20 mins she jumped that fence 8 times. And this wasn't playful, not for me at least. Each time I picked her up she would bite at me, and jump and bite for my legs when I put her down. One time I felt there was real aggression in her. By the 8th time, with her jaw clamped on my forearm, thrashing her body about, and my commands of NO, Drop, Stop having zero effect I just stood there, hunched over, in total desperation. Rather than try to command her any more I just slid myself out of my top and walked back into the house. When she came back in she sat down near me and I thought she was finally tired. Wrong. She jumped and went to chew my ear. When I pulled away I felt fear for the first time. I no longer felt comfortable with her sitting behind me so close to the back of my head. She lunged for my arm again. Barked. I put her back outside the room, she barked... I mean you get the picture here. It was relentless. 

I live with my mum and sister. Sadly, and it pains me to say this, there is no love for this dog atm. It feels like were are living with a belligerent, aggressive drunk. Someone who thumbs their nose at our affection, deals out pain whenever the chance arises, and just for good measure wees on the carpet right in front of you, often on the other side of the room from where the newspaper has been laid.

It's now 9.55am. For the last 30 mins she has been asleep at my feet, her madness lasting just over two hours. I dread every morning with her.

Siskin - your post gives me some hope for the future. To answer your question she is 11 weeks old today.

Jockey - Thanks for the help. I'll search for your post and read it now.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Don't know if this has been asked but what are you feeding her?

Certain foods can make some dogs hyper.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Hi Lurcherlad

She has Step Up to Naturals dry food with a little bit of warm puppies goat milk for breakfast.
Lunch is a bit more dry food with 2 sachets of pedigree puppies wet food.
Same for dinner.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

sunmachine said:


> In the garden she has two default modes, one is furious digging which I'm not too bothered about, the other is going where she shouldn't


So the one you do care about gets your attention and she's cottoned on to this as a game. I'm afraid you need to raise the fence or stop caring about your raised beds.

Keep in mind at all times - it will pass.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> Thank you for all the help and suggestions.
> 
> It's only been a few days since my initial post so unsurprisingly there has been no change in her behaviour. It is exactly 3 weeks to the day that I got her. The last 2 weeks have been the most challenging and miserable time I've had with a dog.
> 
> ...


Why do you think she understands what "NO" means? Do you know many unruly toddlers who respond to No No No No all the time? You must teach her what alternative behaviour you want. Stop saying no, the word means nothing to her, you might as well shout apples. You did well when she first started by removing yourself from her until she stopped barking, as soon as you let her back in and she started the barking/lunging at you again you should have removed yourself again rather than telling her NO and allowing her to carry on doing it. How do your Mum and sister feel about her? Do they love her and want to work things out or are you all fed up with her? Have you spoken to your breeder for advice? Would your breeder take her back if you decide you really can't cope?

Free download from Dr Ian Dunbar - chapter 5 is about teaching bite inhibition

http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> as soon as you let her back in and she started the barking/lunging at you again you should have removed yourself again


This in spades! I tried the whole redirection thing and it didn't work. Doing anything with the dog is giving it attention - even those few seconds taking her to another place/room. Removing yourself is much quicker and involves no further interaction with her. She bites and the thing she wants disappears - instantly.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

That brings back memories, puppies can be a nightmare I know Dillon was.

I think you may also be feeding her to much, 2 sachets of pedigree puppies wet food as well as dry kibble sounds to much, at her age she should be feed 4 small meals a day. We were told by our breeder to feed half a sachet in his dry for each meal, so only 2 sachets a day.

But remember she will calm down and things will get better, Dillon was much better at home once he started to go on walks.

Remember the 5 minute rule of walking a puppy, 5 minutes for every month.
3 months 15 minutes a day
4 months 20 minutes a day
5 months 25 minutes a day
6 months 30 minutes a day
and so on until she about 11 months old

this is only for pavement walking as it can damage their hips she can play and walk on grass as much as you like.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Agree with @havoc and @rottiepointerhouse, you need to remove yourself from her every time she bites you, not now and again, but every time, it's the only way she will learn that biting you means you will leave her alone and everyone in the household must do the same thing. Goldens crave human companionship and depriving her of it will effect her more then you saying no, redirecting her onto another toy or anything else.

As said, make a bigger fence for the area you want her to keep out of. You managed to train her into jumping the fence by giving her attention and a treat afterwards even though your intention was to reward her for being on the right side of the fence.

You mention you have newspapers down for her to toilet on. Are you not taking her out regularly to toilet? You will need to take her out after waking, after eating, after a play and round about 1 to 1.5hour intervals. Leaving newspaper or puppy pads around in the hope she will use them will not train her to toilet outside. You need to watch her and any sign of her circling or sniffing the floor get her outside quickly as she probably needs to toilet. She is not peeing in front of you in order to be defiant, it's just that she needs to go and her bladder cannot hold on until you remember to take her out. Leaving paper or puppy pads about in the house only serves to make your pup think it's ok to toilet indoors.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Thanks, Dottie. Of course you are right. I guess with the No command what I was trying to do was associate the word with removal from the room, to give her warning of what was about to happen in the hope that eventually she would realise no meant something not nice.

I have now put up a new, 1 meter high close mesh metal fence. She ran against it several times and barked when it didn't yield but that battle is won. I feel like I'm living the dog version of the Stanford prison experiment.

I am now really worried about her. She was docile for a bit but this afternoon she just started to bark at me and growl for no reason. I picked her up and played with her and she snapped toward my face. I'm fearful of her. 

As far as I can tell she is in good health, she has twice been checked out be a vet.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> Thanks, Dottie. Of course you are right. I guess with the No command what I was trying to do was associate the word with removal from the room, to give her warning of what was about to happen in the hope that eventually she would realise no meant something not nice.
> 
> I have now put up a new, 1 meter high close mesh metal fence. She ran against it several times and barked when it didn't yield but that battle is won. I feel like I'm living the dog version of the Stanford prison experiment.
> 
> ...


I can be rather Dottie I know  Why do you pick her up when she is barking and growling at you?


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

That was meant to say thanks rottie, my iPad annoyingly auto spell changes. 

I have spoken to the breeder but just about general stuff, I haven't told her the whole story of her behaviour. I do have contact with the owners of her two bitch dog litter mates. I will contact the owner of the bitch this evening and ask if she is experiencing anything similar. From previous conversations, I've inferred that she isn't but I've yet to ask directly.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

As to the toilet thing, I put her out hourly, oftentimes more, ie when she wakes from a nap I put her out straight away regardless of when she last went.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> That was meant to say thanks rottie, my iPad annoyingly auto spell changes.
> 
> I have spoken to the breeder but just about general stuff, I haven't told her the whole story of her behaviour. I do have contact with the owners of her two bitch dog litter mates. I will contact the owner of the bitch this evening and ask if she is experiencing anything similar. From previous conversations, I've inferred that she isn't but I've yet to ask directly.


I've just noticed you are 16, presumably you are out at school/college during the day so who is responsible for looking after pup when you aren't there? How much input do the adults of the house have with her and are you all using the same methods of dealing with toilet training and mouthing and play? I'm really interested to know why you pick her up when she is barking and growling at you???


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

16! haha. Im 49! Obviously I didn't see that when I joined and now I have to contact an admin to change it. 

The dog is almost never alone. In fact in the 3 weeks I've had her she has been alone for no more than 1 hour on two occasions. I'm here with her almost 24/7, I work from home. My mum is in her 70s and retired. She lives with me since my father passed away.

Let me elaborate a bit more on why I picked her up. I was sitting in on the sofa and she was sitting on the floor in front of me. She started to bark at me. I had no food nor was I doing anything so this puzzled me. However, she jumped her front paws onto the sofa so I assumed it meant she wanted to come up. (She will often bark when she is unable to do something, eg, she can get up the stairs but not down, so sits at the top barking til I pick her up and take her down). She came up onto my lap and immediately started growling and snapping for my hands, as she turned her head she snapped towards my face.

Today really has been dreadful. Usually she tires out and the madness passes but for some reason today, she has been barking/snapping/growling the whole time. My only respite is when she is so tired she sleeps, such as now. I've played with her in the garden, throwing toys for her to run after, played games hiding food under cups for her to get, and yet as soon as they finish she is straight on my heels snapping and growling and barking.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I would be interested to know a bit about her breeding. Is she show bred or from working lines?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> 16! haha. Im 49! Obviously I didn't see that when I joined and now I have to contact an admin to change it.
> 
> The dog is almost never alone. In fact in the 3 weeks I've had her she has been alone for no more than 1 hour on two occasions. I'm here with her almost 24/7, I work from home. My mum is in her 70s and retired. She lives with me since my father passed away.
> 
> ...


:Hilarious:Hilarious I thought you sounded mature for a 16 year old especially when you mentioned putting up the fence. I would seriously try to avoid picking her up. Have you got her booked in for any puppy classes? It might be worth calling in a behaviourist to help you if you feel you are not making any progress.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

sunmachine said:


> Let me elaborate a bit more on why I picked her up. I was sitting in on the sofa and she was sitting on the floor in front of me. She started to bark at me. I had no food nor was I doing anything so this puzzled me. However, she jumped her front paws onto the sofa so I assumed it meant she wanted to come up.


Do you intend to allow her on the furniture? If so will it be all furniture or just the sofa? You say she can get up the stairs but not down - does she have free run of the whole house? You're making it very difficult for both of you if you aren't setting any boundaries at this stage. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with dogs on sofas or throughout the house but it's something we work up to. I certainly don't have a pup who isn't house trained yet wandering round the whole house without me. I do think she may be getting over tired and wound up and have no idea of what you do or don't want.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

sunmachine said:


> As to the toilet thing, *I put her out hourly*, oftentimes more, ie when she wakes from a nap *I put her out straight away* regardless of when she last went.


You need to* take her out*. Not put her out. Perhaps you need more advice on toilet training as well as the other great advice you are getting. I'll let the experts give that toileting advice, but I do know you can't just put a puppy out and expect her to understand why. You have to train the puppy to understand what this going out is for, and that means going out with her and actively training her.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Siskin said:


> I would be interested to know a bit about her breeding. Is she show bred or from working lines?


I actually don't know the answer to that. Her mum comes from a rural setting but is just a house dog. It won't mean much but I'll scan in and post her pedigree line asap.

Rottie - she will be starting puppy classes later this month. That feels like a lifetime away considering how miserable each day is.

Havoc - She has the run of most of the downstairs, which is one big room and an adjoining kitchen and hallway. The stairs are blocked at the bottom with a baby gate but on occasion we forget to close it and she goes up. Thus she doesn't have total free run of the house. I will often leave the patio doors open though so she can play in the garden.

Iorilu - My bad for poor choice of words. I do indeed take her out, always to the same spot, and say wee wee to her. When finished I praise her.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I do feel your pain. I spent a sweltering summer in knee high leather boots because I'd got and ankle nipper and it HURT. I do know what it's like - just like many others I thought I'd got an irrecoverably aggressive dog. I hadn't and neither have you. I was just getting it all wrong. I brought home this cute ball of fluff and I wanted to be 'nice'. Well doing the right thing by your puppy isn't about doing what it wants, it's about setting the boundaries so she learns what you want. Every time you speak you are barking - teaching her that barking is an OK behaviour? Every time she asks for something and you give it to her without asking for something she learns she can get whatever she wants with bad behaviour. The way to be allowed on the sofa isn't to put her front paws up - it's to sit and wait to be asked. She gets nothing for nothing and certainly not by terrorising you.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

No means nothing to her, you might as well be speaking in Chinese! Instead of saying 'No', call her name and reward her for coming to you, get her to sit or play with a toy.
Honestly she sounds bored. Stuff her food into kongs or treat dispensers, or hide it in the garden or house to get her to sniff it out. She's bored and the only way she gets your full attention is to jump around like a loony and bite your arms, at which point you make a lot of noise and fuss over her! Have you tried suddenly jumping up and starting a play session? How about training some tricks or commands using her daily food allowance? Play some bonding fun games with her and you might find that you both start to enjoy each other's company more. Puppies are a pain, but the more effort you put in now the more likely you are to have a lovely well behaved dog when she's older.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I think Sarah H could well be right and she is a bit bored and is making her own entertainment which unfortunately involves you who she is treating like her litter mates. I've found chewing something was good for mine when a pup especially if it took some chewing. Have a look on the Zooplus website at the natural chews in particular the calf hooves (not the filled type). My golden enjoyed these as a pup, be warned they are smelly, and would chew for ages then settle down for a snooze as chewing is soporific.

Picking up on what someone else said about allowing her free range of the house. Firstly I didn't let my pup go up and down the stairs at all until she was older. Goldens can have problems with hips and elbows and care needs to be taken in not over exercising when young and jumping or leaping off things, going up and down stairs when so young shouldn't be happening. I put a stair gate up so she only had access to the kitchen diner until she was more trustworthy over toilet training and she didn't go upstairs until she was about 20 weeks and then it was with me escorting her each time. 
Do you know whether the breeder hip and elbow scored the mother of your pup and was she mated to a sire that also hip and elbow scored?


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Siskin said:


> I think Sarah H could well be right and she is a bit bored and is making her own entertainment which unfortunately involves you who she is treating like her litter mates. I've found chewing something was good for mine when a pup especially if it took some chewing. Have a look on the Zooplus website at the natural chews in particular the calf hooves (not the filled type). My golden enjoyed these as a pup, be warned they are smelly, and would chew for ages then settle down for a snooze as chewing is soporific.
> 
> Picking up on what someone else said about allowing her free range of the house. Firstly I didn't let my pup go up and down the stairs at all until she was older. Goldens can have problems with hips and elbows and care needs to be taken in not over exercising when young and jumping or leaping off things, going up and down stairs when so young shouldn't be happening. I put a stair gate up so she only had access to the kitchen diner until she was more trustworthy over toilet training and she didn't go upstairs until she was about 20 weeks and then it was with me escorting her each time.
> Do you know whether the breeder hip and elbow scored the mother of your pup and was she mated to a sire that also hip and elbow scored?


I do hope this is the case. After today though I find it hard to believe boredom is the cause. I was with her all day, suffering but with her nonetheless. I played with her in the garden, throwing stuff for her to chase, I played food games with her. All she wanted to do was growl and bark and bite me. Really, when I walk into a room and all she does is growl at me, then bark, I cannot believe that's normal puppy behaviour. To me that's an aggressive trait.

I will try her on a chew bone. My niece brought one over the other day and it did keep her occupied for hours.

Today really has been total hell.

Siskin - She never comes down the stairs, I always carry her.

Her hip scores are;

*Oriole Shining Gold*
Eye Examination : *Unaffected* - 9th September 2016
Hip Score : *2/7 = 9* - 5th January 2010

*Leasamar Mothers Ruin*
Eye Examination : *Unaffected* - 12th May 2017
Hip Score : *5/5 = 10* - 11th February 2017

Her full pedigree line is here
https://ibb.co/mj8dyw


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Ok. It looks like the paternal side are largely working bred dogs, the maternal side is a dual purpose line in the main (dogs bred for both show ring as well as working). It could be why your pup is such a live wire as some working lines are hard work to deal with as puppies. I think it would be a good idea to talk your problems through with the breeder.
I also see that there was only three in the litter. When you viewed the puppies did you see how your pup behaved with her siblings?

Edited to add. What is the reaction of other members of your family to her? Are they having the same problems with her as you are?


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Siskin said:


> Ok. It looks like the paternal side are largely working bred dogs, the maternal side is a dual purpose line in the main (dogs bred for both show ring as well as working). It could be why your pup is such a live wire as some working lines are hard work to deal with as puppies. I think it would be a good idea to talk your problems through with the breeder.
> I also see that there was only three in the litter. When you viewed the puppies did you see how your pup behaved with her siblings?
> 
> Edited to add. What is the reaction of other members of your family to her? Are they having the same problems with her as you are?


Thanks, Siskin. I will do that but ultimately, other than taking her back I'm not sure what else she can do. 
There were indeed only 3 in the litter. 4 but one was stillborn. I saw her with her mum and her sister (the 3rd pup was already gone). They seemed ok together but I was there when they were all tired. My pup did get up and feed on mum for a bit but I saw no obvious issues between them. The breeder did send me a video of her playing which at the time I thought was cute but in retrospect I'm not so sure. It showed the mum lying down, with 2 pups feeding from her and the 3rd, my one, nipping at mum. Mum was totally unbothered and just nudged her around but still. This evening I got in contact with the owner of the other bitch pup. She told me her pup mouths and nips from time to time, sometimes hard, but she is learning to stop when commanded. She was certainly surprised when I told her about my experience, hers was nothing of the sort.

With my mum, she seems a tiny bit calmer. I've spent way more time with her but I feel she is bonding better with my mum. She will still bite my mum and bark at her but I don't notice quite the same venom towards her. With my nieces she is fine, but she only sees them from time to time and she rarely nips strangers.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Whereabouts are you? I feel you need a trainer to come over and see how pup and you interact. If you give us your general area we might be able to get you some recommendations. 
Look on the IMDT website and see if there's a trainer near you and maybe give them a ring. Ask dog owning friends if there are any trainers they know that will come out to see you, and avoid anyone spouting 'alpha' or 'pack leader' type rubbish.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

If you do call in a trainer, I'd suggest filming the pup in advance - it's possible that you are giving her mixed messages and she is confused about what is acceptable. A very intuitive trainer might influence her behaviour without seeming to do much. If the pup is "on her best behaviour" for them, not only will they not witness what you see each day, they also won't see how you respond to it.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

applecrumlin said:


> If you do call in a trainer, I'd suggest filming the pup in advance - it's possible that you are giving her mixed messages and she is confused about what is acceptable. A very intuitive trainer might influence her behaviour without seeming to do much. If the pup is "on her best behaviour" for them, not only will they not witness what you see each day, they also won't see how you respond to it.


Thanks, guys. I'm in Beckenham Kent. Since Sunday I've calmed down a bit. My pup is still very bitey but I think I was working myself up with the thought that she was brain damaged or bound to become an aggressive dog. I've now got her to sit on command which I do to break any real mad clamps on my hand etc. I've also stopped any tug of war play with her. She will still bite onto my shoes/trouser leg trying to do so but I hold still. She will then jump up and nip at me which I try an redirect with a new chew bone or sit command and treat.

There are still a few moments when she seems possessed though. Usually just before bed time and soon after waking up. Last night I'd turned out the light, settled her but she was having none of it. Snapping and snarling trying to get my hands, sleeves or whatever. After a while I let her mouth my finger. She will still bite painfully but if I angle it right I can rest my finger just behind her incisors where she is unable to really bite. This seems to calm her, that and stroking her belly at the same time. Still it's very Jekyll and Hyde behaviour.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

They can be like toddlers, especially when they are tired - they fight the sleep, and get ratty and cuddly at the same time. I should add I have very little experience of toddlers ...


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> Thanks, guys. I'm in Beckenham Kent. Since Sunday I've calmed down a bit. My pup is still very bitey but I think I was working myself up with the thought that she was brain damaged or bound to become an aggressive dog. I've now got her to sit on command which I do to break any real mad clamps on my hand etc. I've also stopped any tug of war play with her. She will still bite onto my shoes/trouser leg trying to do so but I hold still. She will then jump up and nip at me which I try an redirect with a new chew bone or sit command and treat.
> 
> There are still a few moments when she seems possessed though. Usually just before bed time and soon after waking up. Last night I'd turned out the light, settled her but she was having none of it. Snapping and snarling trying to get my hands, sleeves or whatever. After a while I let her mouth my finger. She will still bite painfully but if I angle it right I can rest my finger just behind her incisors where she is unable to really bite. This seems to calm her, that and stroking her belly at the same time. Still it's very Jekyll and Hyde behaviour.


Glad to hear there is some improvement and you are learning ways to deal with or redirect her. We call the mad burst of energy before sleep the Zoomies - my current rottie used to do a wall of death racing like a bunny rabbit around the ground floor of the house in a big circuit including on one sofa bounce off and onto the other sending anything in her way flying. She started to calm down once she was going out for walks though.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Just been reading your other thread about periodic lameness, I really would get her checked by a vet in that respect as its quite possible she has something going on which is also making her grumpy. My current rottie had a lot of orthopaedic problems from an early age but because they affected all of her limbs it was almost impossible to see unless one was significantly worse than the others. A good vet picked up on her odd way of walking (like she had flippers on her front feet) and when she was investigated further we found out why. No one could believe it because she was an active, lively pup but she did used to get quite narky at times and have a moan/grumble at my other dogs for going near her legs. Worth ruling out at any rate.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

So just over a month since my last post on this subject and I thought it was time for an update.

On balance I'd say it's a case of 1 step forward, 1 step back. My golden pup (Maisie) is now a few days shy of her 4 month birthday. There has been some improvement in her behaviour; the constant biting and barking that I first described is no longer constant, however it still manifests itself several times a day and, now that she is bigger, is harder to deal with. I have her out walking now. Every morning around 11am we head to the nearby park for 30 mins or so. I let her off the lead (it's all grass there) and she will either run about if on her own, or tussle with other dogs if not. Most of the other dogs I've met there are roughly the same size as her, even if they are different breeds; cockerpoos, retrievers, cavaliers etc. Some of them just run around with her but a few tumble about with her. Even though they snap at one another and roll around on the ground together I see no aggression and none of them appear worse for wear afterwards.

Interestingly, I just read another post on here about a cavalier which is showing almost identical issues as my pup. Firstly, while out walking, she will be fine and then suddenly decide to chew either my trainers or sleeves. She will latch onto the tongue of my trainer and not let go, growling more and more even if I don't move. Either that or she starts jumping up at me trying to catch my shirt (which now hangs in ribbons at the bottom edge from all the times she has ripped it) or the edge of my shorts. If she does either she will NOT let go, regardless of how sternly I tell her no. She does know to "sit" on command (reinforced with treat giving) and I will use this with an 70/30 success/fail rate. Today, it didn't work and I had to restrain her by holding the back of her harness til I was able to put her lead on and hold her at arms length. All the while she was growling/barking and getting more wound up. Once on the lead she bit at it mercilessly. Even during times of normal walking, she will suddenly become aware of the lead and do her best to chew it off.

This jekyll/hyde behaviour also shows up indoors. She can be sitting fine, all docile and stretched out on my lap and then let out a sudden growl and want to mouth my hands. This ALWAYS escalates into more mouthing - which gets progressively harder - or barking if I shut her out or keep her away from me. Putting her out of the room really doesn't help. She will sit and bark incessantly, sending everyone's stress levels skyrocketing. Her normal chew toys and chew bones (which she usually loves) lose all interest to her. I've often put her chew-bone toward her mouth and it's clear she is moving her head away from the bone and toward my hand.

I am at a loss as to why she acts like this. Walkies hasn't curbed her as I hoped it would (though it does give us a clear 2-3 hours peace afterwards while she sleeps or is tired). It really does strike me as a period of madness, or jekyll and hyde as I mentioned above. 

I don't think it's true aggression per se. She has never actually bitten me and it's clear she is going for my sleeves or my shoes. However, the indiscriminate nature of her snapping means she could just as easily catch my wrist or leg, and as she grows bigger that becomes more worrisome. Also of note is that if you pull her away/ restrain her in these moments she dials up the madness not down and it's during these moments that my heart sinks and I start worrying again.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Walks should NOT be a free-for-all puppy party where they get to do whatever they like. The description of your pup biting at you is just her trying to get you t play roughly like she's doing with the other dogs. She wants to interact with you and is doing so in just the same way she does with the other dogs. Take her out and interact with her, do training, play games, buy a long line so that if she starts to run off you can stop her. Yes, allow her to play but don't let it get rough and make sure you can recall her from playing with other dogs. You mustn't let her run up to every dog either, some would really rather an annoying bouncy puppy not approach them,
You really need a trainer to come and help you manage her. She's a normal puppy who needs guidance NOW before she gets bigger and becomes a real problem.


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## Jocky San (Jun 3, 2017)

Hey buddy, this reply comes from a first time owner, who got a 12-week old puppy that is now 8 months old... and 33kg. I know that when you're at your wits end with it, replies like "that's normal" or "it'll get better" are really no use or comfort at all. However...

I can tell you, that at 4-5 months we were one hour away from calling the breeder because of behaviour like this. She got sick at one point, and I feel very guilty at thinking it wouldn't be all that bad if she didn't make it... Hey, I'm being honest.

You're not seeing Jekyll and Hyde. You're seeing tired/no energy/calm periods, and then not tired/super-energetic/excited periods. If your puppy (or any puppy) had any choice, it would be in the second mode only, all the time. It's only when they are totally tired out or low on energy that they go calm.

Our pup's behaviour just started to change somewhere between 6 and 7 months. Not a quantum change, but she is just calmer, and not chewing or biting like she used to. We haven't done anything, other than always being consistent in how we responded to unwanted behaviour. And that is to lose interest and make it clear she's not welcome in the pack. For me personally, when she wouldn't stop the nipping, I gave her a very clear signal it wasn't on, ultimately I would clip her on the behind until she stopped - and it only usually took one clip. Many people won't agree with this, but since you can't nip them back, it's an alternative, which worked for us. They need to understand you're not happy, so that when they learn to control their behaviour they already have an idea about what you don't like and what isn't acceptable.

But the bad news is: it is unlikely to change for a while. She simply just can't control her attention span or urges at the moment. But one day soon you'll sit and think "wow, she hasn't nipped my ankles for a while" or "she hasn't chewed those shoes there, like she always does"... it will just come with time.

I personally think they do need clear, firm leadership. Cuddle don't coddle, and make it crystal clear you're the angry dog when she is playing too hard.

And never, never, never worry about her whining or barking a bit when you time her out. Don't let her get distressed, but more likely she is just letting you know that she's not happy at being disciplined, and you can't let that get to you - put it out of your head and do controlled timeouts. It's like parents who can't stand the thought of their kids not liking them... they end up with spoilt brats that no-one likes. Your dog will always love you if you take care of her, but right now she is looking for leadership, guidance, certainty and control.

Bear with it... it's very tough, but at least the worse she is now, the happier you'll be when it subsides. Well done for sticking this far, I hope you can see it out.

Even though our pup is only 8 months and can be quite troublesome, she is showing signs of being a really wonderful family pet. Her true nature is coming out now, she is gentle and affectionate, but you don't see their nature when they are pups and just getting on your tits the whole time. 

I am really glad we stuck it out, and I am sure you will be. Good Luck!!


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## Jocky San (Jun 3, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> Walks should NOT be a free-for-all puppy party where they get to do whatever they like. The description of your pup biting at you is just her trying to get you t play roughly like she's doing with the other dogs. She wants to interact with you and is doing so in just the same way she does with the other dogs. Take her out and interact with her, do training, play games, buy a long line so that if she starts to run off you can stop her. Yes, allow her to play but don't let it get rough and make sure you can recall her from playing with other dogs. You mustn't let her run up to every dog either, some would really rather an annoying bouncy puppy not approach them,
> You really need a trainer to come and help you manage her. She's a normal puppy who needs guidance NOW before she gets bigger and becomes a real problem.


That's great advice too. We had to learn so much so fast, and we realised that encouraging raucous play, tug-of-war and other such stuff, really does reward and encourage that behaviour. We stopped tug-of-war and any other games that involved mouth-to-hand play, and I think that helps stop the mouthing. Continue to make it clear, that her teeth cannot be on your skin. Accidents happen, but you dictate the play. My wife made me realise that "wrestling" with the pup was just such a bad idea.


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## lullabydream (Jun 25, 2013)

Jocky San said:


> Hey buddy, this reply comes from a first time owner, who got a 12-week old puppy that is now 8 months old... and 33kg. I know that when you're at your wits end with it, replies like "that's normal" or "it'll get better" are really no use or comfort at all. However...
> 
> I can tell you, that at 4-5 months we were one hour away from calling the breeder because of behaviour like this. She got sick at one point, and I feel very guilty at thinking it wouldn't be all that bad if she didn't make it... Hey, I'm being honest.
> 
> ...


I just like to point out as a forum we advocate positive methods for training.

There is also no such thing as being a pack leader. That's a very outdated theory and can do more damage than good

Am actually shocked and horrified to be reading this post.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Jocky San said:


> Hey buddy, this reply comes from a first time owner, who got a 12-week old puppy that is now 8 months old... and 33kg. I know that when you're at your wits end with it, replies like "that's normal" or "it'll get better" are really no use or comfort at all. However...
> 
> I can tell you, that at 4-5 months we were one hour away from calling the breeder because of behaviour like this. She got sick at one point, and I feel very guilty at thinking it wouldn't be all that bad if she didn't make it... Hey, I'm being honest.
> 
> ...


As a forum we absolutely do NOT advocate using punishing methods in training any animal.

I will not be deleting this as it has had replies & I think it is an excellent example of what not to do, but please do not train your puppy like this, & definitely do not encourage other people to emulate it.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> Walks should NOT be a free-for-all puppy party where they get to do whatever they like. The description of your pup biting at you is just her trying to get you t play roughly like she's doing with the other dogs. She wants to interact with you and is doing so in just the same way she does with the other dogs. Take her out and interact with her, do training, play games, buy a long line so that if she starts to run off you can stop her. Yes, allow her to play but don't let it get rough and make sure you can recall her from playing with other dogs. You mustn't let her run up to every dog either, some would really rather an annoying bouncy puppy not approach them,
> You really need a trainer to come and help you manage her. She's a normal puppy who needs guidance NOW before she gets bigger and becomes a real problem.


I can relate to that. However she has been like this since the day I got her whereas she has only been playing with other pups for the last week. I have her on a long lead which winds out to about 5 meters. Tbh though I don't want her on that all the time. Her recall skills are generally pretty good. I've got her on a puppy training class which starts 5th Dec.

Jockey - I can also relate to what you say. I too have had moments where I felt if she suddenly vanished I wouldn't feel too bad. Of course I feel bad about it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> So just over a month since my last post on this subject and I thought it was time for an update.
> 
> On balance I'd say it's a case of 1 step forward, 1 step back. My golden pup (Maisie) is now a few days shy of her 4 month birthday. There has been some improvement in her behaviour; the constant biting and barking that I first described is no longer constant, however it still manifests itself several times a day and, now that she is bigger, is harder to deal with. I have her out walking now. Every morning around 11am we head to the nearby park for 30 mins or so. I let her off the lead (it's all grass there) and she will either run about if on her own, or tussle with other dogs if not. Most of the other dogs I've met there are roughly the same size as her, even if they are different breeds; cockerpoos, retrievers, cavaliers etc. Some of them just run around with her but a few tumble about with her. Even though they snap at one another and roll around on the ground together I see no aggression and none of them appear worse for wear afterwards.
> 
> ...


Did you ever get her vet checked regarding the intermittent lameness?


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

sunmachine said:


> I can relate to that. However she has been like this since the day I got her whereas she has only been playing with other pups for the last week. I have her on a long lead which winds out to about 5 meters. Tbh though I don't want her on that all the time. Her recall skills are generally pretty good. I've got her on a puppy training class which starts 5th Dec.


I know she's only just started playing with pups, but she's still rehearsing the undesirable behaviour with them AND you. And allowing rough and tumble with puppies is only going to increase her arousal level which you already struggle to control. Great that her recall is good, you need to keep reinforcing that, but as she learns that playing with puppies and the world around her is exciting, you will become boring (especially if you are telling her off or not interacting in a fun way) and she will become a Bogoff dog. 
Hopefully the puppy class will give you more skills and they can give you advice and show you what to do.


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Did you ever get her vet checked regarding the intermittent lameness?


Hi Rottie. Yes, I did and he could find nothing wrong. And 've not noticed any limping from her since.

Two other points of general info. A few weeks ago I was away in Berlin and she was looked after by a family friend, Caroline who also has a 4 yo male golden, Monty. I took Maisie to meet them briefly a few days before she went to live there. Monty is 4 times her size and wasn't bothered by her as she ran round him. I handed her over a few days later, went away and prayed she would be good. When I picked her up Caroline told me she had been a dream. She played with Monty till she was tired and then they would cuddle up together to sleep. When I asked about barking, nipping, mouthing etc she said there was virtually none.

And secondly, if I pick her up she goes back to being normal, just like she's had a shot of valium. This is not a long term solution, she's getting too big to easily hold, but it is something I've noticed.


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## applecrumlin (Mar 8, 2015)

OP I can relate; my dog didn't bite but was a tiny hurricane who sought out other dogs with a passion. I still don't think that there is anything more joyous to watch than dogs playing together, plus it helps to tire them out - the thought of an hour of respite as they sleep at home is very attractive.
But I definitely would agree with limiting her interaction with other dogs. I used to feel so mean, avoiding other dogs in the park, but it's a necessary price to pay, in order to end up with a dog who has an incentive to learn your rules, and play by them. 
Think of kids at a birthday party - lovely to watch occasionally but not healthy to have that kind of stimulation too often. Keep it as an infrequent treat (and don't envy the people who seem to get away with it; they've either got easier dogs, more difficult dogs, better discipline or lower standards!)

Edited because I cross-posted with you - playing with one other dog of known temperament is very different from playing with a rotating cast of casual meets in public. Mine has an elderly labrador friend and they adore each other, she's allowed a lot more license with the labrador than with any other dog.


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## Jocky San (Jun 3, 2017)

simplysardonic said:


> I will not be deleting this as it has had replies & I think it is an excellent example of what not to do


Well it's a fine line between moderation and censorship, but thank you for falling on the right side.
This is a divisive subject on which you will never have unanimous agreement - even on this forum - and of course "positive reinforcement" is the only politically acceptable opinion currently.
But I certainly don't encourage and wouldn't tell other people how to train their dogs. I don't know enough to do that. But I will share experience and try to be helpful as other members have been with me. After a very difficult period pursuing commonly recommended methods, I decided to follow the advice of friends who have wonderfully well-behaved dogs, and I have been delighted in the success of a firmer approach. She is a happier and much more confident because of this, and yet the improvement in her self-control is incredible.
I have just taught her how to "kiss" whereby she can take a small treat from between my lips with her front teeth and make zero contact. Some people find that gross but I find such gentleness, and the self control with which she leans forward, and delicately take the treat, in a 33kg puppy delightful.
I believe when she's her full 60-70kg in weight, where bad or uncontrollable behaviour is a positive safety risk, I will see the benefit from such a clearly defined, and healthy, relationship.
Anyway - to the OP - good luck, I hope you find a way that works, and - *really *- try and take comfort that homing and training a new puppy is one of the toughest things you can do (it was for us) and if you can get through it you will be proud of yourself and her, and have a great pet.

Additional Edit: and by the way, mine is still only just over 8 months (almost 9 months) so still a puppy! I really look forward now to how she will be as she gets through adolescence and matures into a very beautiful big dog!


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Another update. I don't want to speak too soon but there appears to be an improvement. Potential good news! Over the last five days I have noticed a gradual change in her behaviour and more attention to my commands. She still mouths but far more gently. Also she is now responding to my firm "No" commands. When she is really worked up it may take 6 or 7 of them to have the desired effect, however, I can see in her eyes that she is aware of my displeasure and will eventually comply. It's a small step but one in the right direction.

I've kept her away from rough play with other dogs.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

sunmachine said:


> Another update. I don't want to speak too soon but there appears to be an improvement. Potential good news! Over the last five days I have noticed a gradual change in her behaviour and more attention to my commands. She still mouths but far more gently. Also she is now responding to my firm "No" commands. When she is really worked up it may take 6 or 7 of them to have the desired effect, however, I can see in her eyes that she is aware of my displeasure and will eventually comply. It's a small step but one in the right direction.
> 
> I've kept her away from rough play with other dogs.


All sounds very positive. Well done


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## mollymo (Oct 31, 2009)

Glad pup seems to be settling down and you can see an improvement.
They don't stay pups very long so enjoy your time with her.

My youngest GR was a year old last week and I can't believe where that year has gone.


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## tabelmabel (Oct 18, 2013)

Hi haven't read all your replies. Just wanted to say donot give her up on account of the biting!

My male tibetan terrier pup was just as you describe. When we first got him home at 10 weeks, we couldn't even touch the top of his head without getting bitten at least 5 times!

Nothing seemed to work. I never knew a pup like him. The technique most successful was definitely putting something in his mouth (an antler) when we were interacting with him.

He did well in obedience classes so his basic obedience was good but he was really mouthy if anyone tried to pet him so he could not progress beyond silver level. We tried ringcraft classes but they did not help!

By the age of 4 months he knew it was wrong but he couldn't seem to help it. However by 4 months, in the house he would voluntarily pick up the antler when excited (eg if someone entered the room )
Outside in woodland he would look for a stick. You could see him desperately searching for something to hold!

If i walked him where people were i gave him a ball to carry. He loved his ball and he wouldn't nip anyone whilst he had that.

But it was all excitement. It took a LONG time for him to stop. About 3 years!!

But by 4 months he wasn't drawing blood - you could feel his teeth on the skin and it was nippy but just gentle. As he got older, it just decreased but in major excitement he still looks for his antler even now!! 5 years old.

It was all excitement though. We never played tuggy games. And tried to teach calm when meeting people. But ultimately it was the antler that helped.

I will also add that murphy still has a real need to chew and bite even now and regularly gets a raw knuckle bone which he thoroughly enjoys!

Hang in there. The biting will diminish definitely!


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## Jocky San (Jun 3, 2017)

Hey sunmachine... how are you getting on?


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Hi everyone, just an update.

My pup is now 10.5 months old and virtually a different dog! She has calmed down massively and no longer does any of the things that were causing me so much turmoil last year. Those early months have taught me a great deal about puppies, and having gone through it I can now say to others, no matter how bad they think their dog is, it does pass.

Thanks to all for keeping me sane when I needed it most.

She's not perfect; still barks way too much, digs up too much of the garden, and refuses food like no other (see other recent threat) but is not the Devil Dog I once thought.

View media item 77906View media item 77907


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

sunmachine said:


> Hi everyone, just an update.
> 
> My pup is now 10.5 months old and virtually a different dog! She has calmed down massively and no longer does any of the things that were causing me so much turmoil last year. Those early months have taught me a great deal about puppies, and having gone through it I can now say to others, no matter how bad they think their dog is, it does pass.
> 
> ...


Really pleased to hear this and thank you for coming back to update us
Sadly, for some reason, I'm unable to see your pictures which is a shame as I would love to see her


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## sunmachine (Sep 27, 2017)

Siskin said:


> Really pleased to hear this and thank you for coming back to update us
> Sadly, for some reason, I'm unable to see your pictures which is a shame as I would love to see her


I think I had the image settings wrong. Hopefully it works now.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Working now.
Lovely looking dog


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