# Intersex kitten, advice needed



## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Hi guys, sorry ive not been on for a while ive just been so snowed under.

I found out yesterday that one of my kittens is intersex ( has male and female reproductive organs)

The vet told me that its extremly rare and the receptionist has been working with vets for 18 years and this is the first case she has seen.

Iam gutted to say the least, has any one had any experience of this?

Hes fine in himself, as fit and active as any other kitten, iam just wondering what his prognosis is? Iam hoping he should be able to lead a normal healthy life.

heres a few pics of him. ( ps iam still calling him a he )


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

OMG Jen... I know nothing about this sort of thing but I know he's an absaloute stunner..

I really hope this doesnt affect him badly in anyway.. xx


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

ahh bless he/she:blushing:is gorgeous,what causes this a freak genetic flaw??will you keep him,do they stay like that or will the vet operate,just wondering if all bits work


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

There was the same thing on another forum a little while ago. The kitty in question was thought to be female but had both apparently. The spay/neuter was still done & as far as I'm aware the kitty is perfectly healthy!

Hope that helps a bit


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Abooksigun said:


> There was the same thing on another forum a little while ago. The kitty in question was thought to be female but had both apparently. The spay/neuter was still done & as far as I'm aware the kitty is perfectly healthy!
> 
> Hope that helps a bit


so obviously all bits work!! thats really amazing,so you would have to pay for a spay and neuter.


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Iam not 100% sure what causes it, i think its something to do with the egg splitting after fertilization, so far ive been told he will need to be speyed and neutered. 

He was due to go to his new home in a few weeks too?


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Iam not 100% sure what causes it, i think its something to do with the egg splitting after fertilization, so far ive been told he will need to be speyed and neutered.
> 
> He was due to go to his new home in a few weeks too?


will they still have him??


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Well i said they could have him for the £50 deposit they gave me.

At first they wanted him still but they changed there minds, They wanted a pedigree so they new it was healthy, they had already lost a cat and didnt want to go through it again.

i cant blame them, i feel awfull though , they bought loads of stuff for him too?


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

aww bless, did the vet say he will lead a normal life once spayed and neutured, . if so, and its a pet home, then would he still be able to go,


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

colliemerles said:


> aww bless, did the vet say he will lead a normal life once spayed and neutured, . if so, and its a pet home, then would he still be able to go,


As far as iam aware he should be as normal as any other neuter, theres just a stigma to it i suppose


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> so obviously all bits work!! thats really amazing,so you would have to pay for a spay and neuter.


Not sure about both bits working tbh! I would imagine spay/neuter would still be sensible tho just incase!!


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Abooksigun said:


> Not sure about both bits working tbh! I would imagine spay/neuter would still be sensible tho just incase!!


i think he will be sterile, but still will be neutered/speyed


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

If he was brought as a pet then surely it doesn't matter?? If they chose him & fell in love with him then I really don't think it should matter.

If it were me I personally wouldn't care I would still love him & be proud that he was unique!!


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Just wanted to add I think he is absolutely gorgeous! I love his colour


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Abooksigun said:


> If he was brought as a pet then surely it doesn't matter?? If they chose him & fell in love with him then I really don't think it should matter.
> 
> If it were me I personally wouldn't care I would still love him & be proud that he was unique!!


thats exactly the way i feel, hes still the same kitten he was before i knew, hes just extra special


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Well i said they could have him for the £50 deposit they gave me.
> 
> At first they wanted him still but they changed there minds, They wanted a pedigree so they new it was healthy, they had already lost a cat and didnt want to go through it again.
> 
> i cant blame them, i feel awfull though , they bought loads of stuff for him too?


I'm pretty sure hun that it wouldn't effect his health overall xx He is still a healthy pedigree in my eyes!!


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Abooksigun said:


> Just wanted to add I think he is absolutely gorgeous! I love his colour


Oh thanks, hes a cream self.

From the mating it is genetically impossible for him to be a female, but when it looked like he had female bits i though i would get him checked at the vet, i didnt no whether to laugh or cry when they told me.

I dont think the gccf register them


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## colliemerles (Nov 2, 2007)

Jen26 said:


> As far as iam aware he should be as normal as any other neuter, theres just a stigma to it i suppose


well if i had booked him, and he wasnt in any pain or stress i would still have him, and get him spayed and neutured, it wouldnt bother me, i would still love him just the same,..


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## Leah100 (Aug 17, 2008)

Jen26 said:


> Well i said they could have him for the £50 deposit they gave me.
> 
> At first they wanted him still but they changed there minds, They wanted a pedigree so they new it was healthy, they had already lost a cat and didnt want to go through it again.
> 
> i cant blame them, i feel awfull though , they bought loads of stuff for him too?


Don't feel bad, it's no one's fault, a kitten is not churned out of a factory from a mold, there will always be the possibility of hiccups along the way. You made them a very handsome offer and it was their decision.

S/he looks absolutely gorgeous, when the neuter is done s/he will be the same as all the other neuters, they are all desexed then really.  His special home will come .


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Awww bless you xx It's not your fault hun it does sometimes happen in humans too. Not that, that will make you feel better I know it's just one of those things we live & learn as they say xx


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Ive had quite a few offers to take him, just not the right one. Iam very picky


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## Abooksigun (Oct 16, 2008)

Yes I agree his special home will come along & if the original owners don't have him then I think it is their loss!


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## cake1981 (Jul 5, 2008)

cute kitty


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## wiccan (May 1, 2008)

m cousin had a gourgous silver tabby with the same thing he/she was spayed neutered and is living a normal life he is now 3 so i dont see it causin your lil one a problem ! hope you find him that special home
p.s they called there cat wotwoz lol


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

wiccan said:


> m cousin had a gourgous silver tabby with the same thing he/she was spayed neutered and is living a normal life he is now 3 so i dont see it causin your lil one a problem ! hope you find him that special home
> p.s they called there cat wotwoz lol


lol nice name, ive been calling him peawee

its nice to hear that
hes doing so well


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

your little kitten is gorgeous and if I was the orginal buyer I wouldn't hesitate - once neutered it won't matter. sad that people couldn't see beyond his 'problem'. Hope you find a lovely home for him, special baby.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

All I can say is my Aunts cat was a boy on the outside and also had girl bits (womb etc) inside. He was neutered by having his balls removed as per usual and spayed by having his woman's bits out like they would spay any other female cat. My Aunt had this cat when I was young and he died when he was 16... Very healthy cat so i think all will be well. What a special kitten! It's a shame the original new owners didn't want him still...


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## Elmstar (Apr 7, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> It's a shame the original new owners didn't want him still...


I think it's a good thing to be honest!

I'm sure he'll find a great home but let me know if he doesn't 

Fiona


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## Angel44 (Feb 11, 2008)

I think hermaphrodites can be expected to live a normal healthy life. Yes, he/she will need to be neutered and spayed, but apart from that they shouldn't be treated any differently from a normal sexed animal. The people who were going to have him have lost out on a gorgeous little kitty.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

awww I wish I could have him... but got 2 rowdy Raggies in one flat already 

I'm positive he will find a home though, he's a stunning little kitten


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## Saynamore (Feb 28, 2008)

Sorry to sound like a numpty Jen, but can you tell me again how they found out there were female bits there? from the outside did the kit look like an obvious boy? Soz for the questions but never been in this position before and willing to learn summat new


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2008)

Absolutely gorgeous kitten and as so many others have already stated, it shouldn't make any difference. How fortunate for the person who does get him to have such a special kitty. He truly is adorable and i for one would be proud to have such a kitten and wouldn't be put off in the least. I think you'll have no problem finding him a forever home.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

I suppose as potential owners had not built up bond with kitten they decided they wanted a "perfect" one,definatly their loss


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmstar said:


> I think it's a good thing to be honest!
> 
> I'm sure he'll find a great home but let me know if he doesn't
> 
> Fiona


yes i guess that's true.


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## Superpettoysrus.com (Nov 23, 2008)

Hes a stunner!!

It waas mentioned that they had lost a cat and when a small problem arose and they was pffered him at a cheaper price it was obviosly not the money that mattered but that they was scared he may have problems later on....they might have been worried about losing another cat and as they had not bonded decided they did not want to take the risk. I dont blame them even though i would not of thought twice i would have thought it was meant to be and he was sure a special lil guy


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## Jen26 (Apr 22, 2008)

Saynamore said:


> Sorry to sound like a numpty Jen, but can you tell me again how they found out there were female bits there? from the outside did the kit look like an obvious boy? Soz for the questions but never been in this position before and willing to learn summat new


Hi Chrissy. I was a bit baffled by him to be honest, he looked like a girl with a bit of a pink thing sticking out of the hole.

hes from a cream x lilac mating so it was genetically impossible for him to be a girl, saiko mentioned he could be both so i thought id get him checked over to make sure, As it turned out he was .

It still hasnt really sunk in.

I havent seen him have a poo yet, hes tried a few times but nothings come out. I cant imagine a kitten could survive over 7 weeks without a poo. Iam guessing he could be constipated. Ive given them all some oily fish so hopefully he will have one soon.

Is there anything else i could try to loosen him up a bit?


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## Rosie Gilbert (Sep 27, 2015)

Hi, im wondering how your kitten progressed. We had what we thought to be a male cat, by the time we realised it was intersexed it was already pregnant. She gave birth to 3 kittens naturaly 7 weeks ago and now we are getting her neutered and was curious as to what the vet did to neuter yours x


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The thread is from Nov 2008! If you cat has been able to deliver kittens I suspect she is female not intersex.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I can't pretend to know anything about cats, but I would like to point out that haemophrodites, (sp.) which is what your kitten is, occurs in humans as well and those humans live a normal lifespan without health problems. This being the case, there is no reason to suppose a cat would be any different. Of course, nowadays, those babies are usually operated on and the parents forced to choose which gender the child will be, but before that was possible they often stayed that way with no physical harm.


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## Rosie Gilbert (Sep 27, 2015)

She most certainly is intersexed. She obviously has fully working female genitals but her male genitals are suspected to be not fully formed. All the vet has confirmed so far is that she is intersexed she gets spayed on Friday and he is going to try look at how much the male genitals are formed while she is aneathetised. To look at her from the outside her spacing looks male, but she has a circular shape instead of the usual male longer slit, inside that circle she has a penis but the testicles never descended and it's unsure if they have formed and that's what the vet wants to examine closer.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rosie Gilbert said:


> She most certainly is intersexed. She obviously has fully working female genitals but her male genitals are suspected to be not fully formed. All the vet has confirmed so far is that she is intersexed she gets spayed on Friday and he is going to try look at how much the male genitals are formed while she is aneathetised. To look at her from the outside her spacing looks male, but she has a circular shape instead of the usual male longer slit, inside that circle she has a penis but the testicles never descended and it's unsure if they have formed and that's what the vet wants to examine closer.


Are you talking to me? If so, I never questioned that she is, as you say, inter sexed. It is only another name for the same thing, and possibly a modern name for it, but whatever you call it makes no difference. My opinion still stands; humans can live long and healthy lives with this condition, so no reason to suppose a cat will not do the same.

BTW if you click on the reply to the post you wish to reply to, there will be no confusion.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> The thread is from Nov 2008! If you cat has been able to deliver kittens I suspect she is female not intersex.


Oh, wow! Didn't know that. I wish people wouldn't drag up old posts, especially ones this old. Seven years? The chances of the original poster seeing it and replying are remote. Obviously the poster was talking to you then, not me. Phew, that's a relief!


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## Rosie Gilbert (Sep 27, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> Oh, wow! Didn't know that. I wish people wouldn't drag up old posts, especially ones this old. Seven years? The chances of the original poster seeing it and replying are remote. Obviously the poster was talking to you then, not me. Phew, that's a relief!


I replied to this post purposely in hope that the person posting would be able to reply on actual experience as all I've been able to find online are a few theories rather than experiences. Sorry for the confusion.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Rosie Gilbert said:


> I replied to this post purposely in hope that the person posting would be able to reply on actual experience as all I've been able to find online are a few theories rather than experiences. Sorry for the confusion.


Well, it doesn't look as though the original poster has seen the update, which is what I suspected. Either way, you could try sending a private message. The forum has changed recently and I am still catching up, so not sure if you can send one or not, but you will get more help that way.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Rosie Gilbert said:


> Hi, im wondering how your kitten progressed. We had what we thought to be a male cat, by the time we realised it was intersexed it was already pregnant. She gave birth to 3 kittens naturaly 7 weeks ago and now we are getting her neutered and was curious as to what the vet did to neuter yours x


It's an old thread, but your thread intrigues me. Why did you think your cat was a "boy"? Did he have boy bits and was neutered, or did you go by colour? A lot of people think "torte girl, ginger boy", but whilst all torties are either girls (over 99%) or hermaphrodite (which means both sexes, not between sexes as intersex would wrongly suggest), gingers are split into approx 75% males, 25% females). We have a ginger female,who's now 13. Would love to see pictures of her kittens.


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## Rosie Gilbert (Sep 27, 2015)

Catharinem said:


> It's an old thread, but your thread intrigues me. Why did you think your cat was a "boy"? Did he have boy bits and was neutered, or did you go by colour? A lot of people think "torte girl, ginger boy", but whilst all torties are either girls (over 99%) or hermaphrodite (which means both sexes, not between sexes as intersex would wrongly suggest), gingers are split into approx 75% males, 25% females). We have a ginger female,who's now 13. Would love to see pictures of her kittens.


We originally thought she was female. Then the vet saw the penis and while we were waiting for the testicles that never appeared to appear we thought it safe for the cat so go outside but she fell pregnant. I became worried when the nipples became more prominent and the vet then told us that the cat was intersexed and pregnant. He said she was only 5 weeks pregnant but would need a cesarean to be safe just incase the birthing canal wasnt formed properly but she gave birth naturally 2 weeks later, a week before the cesarean date had been booked for. I've attached a photo of one of the kittens Baloo the other 2 are asleep under the wardrobe at the moment. They are both black all over but one has a little white spot of hair on his throat. The mother cat is a very beautiful all black short haired cat. I will get a photo of her and the other 2 kittens after their nap time x


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

My mistake, posted before getting to end of thread. Please let me know what your vet says, and pictures of babies. As people say, it's an old thread in relation to the pedigree. That might be one example where I'd go along with early neutering in case of complications/longer recovery from double surgery. Once a neuter couldn't it then be registered under the "correct " sex for its colour? I can't the only breeder who has kittens born either side of midnight, so sometimes dates of birth are recorded wrong as you can't register 2 dates of birth for the same litter.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Rosie Gilbert said:


> We originally thought she was female. Then the vet saw the penis and while we were waiting for the testicles that never appeared to appear we thought it safe for the cat so go outside but she fell pregnant. I became worried when the nipples became more prominent and the vet then told us that the cat was intersexed and pregnant. He said she was only 5 weeks pregnant but would need a cesarean to be safe just incase the birthing canal wasnt formed properly but she gave birth naturally 2 weeks later, a week before the cesarean date had been booked for. I've attached a photo of one of the kittens Baloo the other 2 are asleep under the wardrobe at the moment. They are both black all over but one has a little white spot of hair on his throat. The mother cat is a very beautiful all black short haired cat. I will get a photo of her and the other 2 kittens after their nap time x


Just gorgeous!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> gingers are split into approx 75% males, 25% females).


I realise this is irrelevant now we know the recent cat in question is black but it is worth mentioning that the colour of cats is entirely due to the genes they carry.

Ginger (red) cats are unusual in that the red gene is carried on the female chromosome. A ginger male must have either a ginger or tortie dam whilst a ginger female must have a ginger sire and either a tortie or ginger dam. (All males from a ginger female will be ginger.)

The original kitten was a cream self from a cream/lilac mating so, in theory, genetically impossible to be female.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> I realise this is irrelevant now we know the recent cat in question is black but it is worth mentioning that the colour of cats is entirely due to the genes they carry.
> 
> Ginger (red) cats are unusual in that the red gene is carried on the female chromosome. A ginger male must have either a ginger or tortie dam whilst a ginger female must have a ginger sire and either a tortie or ginger dam. (All males from a ginger female will be ginger.)
> 
> The original kitten was a cream self from a cream/lilac mating so, in theory, genetically impossible to be female.


Just trying to wrap my head around that. So males would be XY, females would be XX. Red carried on female chromosome (X). Ginger female would get her red from either of the 2 X chromosomes her mother might use to make her egg ( which would be X, not XX). Father (XY) would produce X or Y sperm, X sperm fertilising X egg makes XX female, Y sperm fertilising X egg makes XY male. From this, it makes sense that a ginger male ( XY) must get his ginger (carried on X) from his mum, because his dad passed on Y, which doesn't carry ginger. However, a ginger female (XX) has one X chromosome from her mum and one from her dad, why does she have to have inherited the ginger gene on both of her X chromosomes? Couldn't she have ginger on 1 X chromosome and the other chromosome carry a gene which is recessive to ginger? so couldn't she get ginger from her mum and something recessive from her dad? Or ginger from her dad (who in turn got it from his mum), and something recessive from her mum?

Been a while since I did genetics, and as I don't breed cream, reds, caramels etc there's a lot I don't know about cat colours, is it something like the only colours that are recessive to ginger are carried on different chromosomes ( or different loci within the same chromosome)?

Could you expand on cream female from cream/lilac being theoretically genetically impossible? Presumably you mean in a normal diploid ( 2 chromosome) kitten?

Genetics is very interesting, I'm still getting to grips with my bees, where female workers who aren't mated produce drone (male) offspring in the absence of a queen in the colony, but female queens who are mated produce females from fertilised eggs or drones from unfertilised eggs - this goes against all common sense, where you'd think an unfertilised egg which started dividing and differentiating would produce more females.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> *why does she have to have inherited the ginger gene on both of her X chromosomes?* Couldn't she have ginger on 1 X chromosome and the other chromosome carry a gene which is recessive to ginger? so couldn't she get ginger from her mum and something recessive from her dad? Or ginger from her dad (who in turn got it from his mum), and something recessive from her mum?
> 
> Been a while since I did genetics, and as I don't breed cream, reds, caramels etc there's a lot I don't know about cat colours, is it something like the only colours that are recessive to ginger are carried on different chromosomes ( or different loci within the same chromosome)?
> 
> Could you expand on cream female from cream/lilac being theoretically genetically impossible? Presumably you mean in a normal diploid ( 2 chromosome) kitten?


I have no clue about bees as I have never needed to find out. I do know that Rose genetics are a nightmare with their diploids, triploids etc etc.

As far as colour genes in cats are concerned, red is the only colour carried on the female chromosome. All the other colour genes are autosomal dominant or recessive.

To be a red cat, a male needs one red gene but a female needs two. A female with one red gene is a tortie. (This is why a cream female from a cream/lilac mating is theoretically impossible.)

I could not comment on the occasions when the gene inheritance goes awry as I am no scientist. There are occasional tortie males so presumably other mistakes are possible. Genetic 'mistakes' are a common occurrence but we are grateful when they give us new colours etc. Then we call them mutations!

Every cat has two basic colour genes (any combination of black, chocolate or cinnamon.) The red gene masks these basic colours.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> I have no clue about bees as I have never needed to find out. I do know that Rose genetics are a nightmare with their diploids, triploids etc etc.
> 
> As far as colour genes in cats are concerned, red is the only colour carried on the female chromosome. All the other colour genes are autosomal dominant or recessive.
> 
> ...


 So cream is a dilution of red, and lilac is a dilution of chocolate, blue a dilution of black etc? I understood that both black and red were carried on X chromosomes, which explained why a male cat could be either black or red but never both (unless an XXY), but a female could either have 2 black, 2 ginger, or 1 black and 1 ginger gene expressed at the same time

Got what you're saying about the ginger females sorted as I typed this, not that you need 2 copies to express as ginger in a female but only 1 copy to express as ginger in a male, but that _if_ the female was expressing only 1 copy of ginger, the other colour being expressed at the same time would make her a tortie. Sorry, very late night, followed by researching secondary schools for the Nov deadline for applications, made my brain too slow!

Tortie males are created when they have both red and black from 2 X chromosomes, plus the additional Y chromosome that makes them male. Diploid cells have pairs of chromosomes, which split when forming the gametes ( haploid egg and sperm). Then when fertilisation occurs order is restored again . Things like XXY occur when the chromosome pairs do not split up, so you have either an XX egg or an XY sperm. I don't know, but my instinct tells me the XX egg is much more probable. The same thing can happen in other chromosome pairs as well, for example in Downs Syndrome which is 3 copies of I think chromosome 23.

I was trying to explain to my daughter about inheritance from mummy and daddy recently, then heard her repeating it back to daddy as " you know genes, like breeding genes, not leggings jeans...?". She's pretty smart and still only middle of primary school.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Black/Chocolate/Cinnamon (3 versions of the same gene) are NOT on the sex chromosones. Red covers black (just as dominant white does) because of the way it alters the type of melanine that is produced.

Dilution (produces blue/lilac/fawn) is separate to both colour (black/chcolate/cinnamon) and red.

Therefore colour (black/chocolate/cinnamon), dilution and red are inherited separately and indpendantly, as is non-agoui, dominant white, white spotting, white gloving and a few other colour / pattern genes.

There are at least two ways tortie males can arise - XXY and Chimeras. XXY is known as Klinefelters in humans.

http://messybeast.com/genetics-index.htm

http://messybeast.com/mosaicism.htm

http://messybeast.com/mosaicism2.htm

http://messybeast.com/mosaicism3.htm

http://messybeast.com/mosaicism4.htm

http://messybeast.com/mosaicism5.htm

http://messybeast.com/mosaicism6.htm


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> I understood that both black and red were carried on X chromosomes, which explained why a male cat could be either black or red but never both (unless an XXY), but a female could either have 2 black, 2 ginger, or 1 black and 1 ginger gene expressed at the same time
> 
> Got what you're saying about the ginger females sorted as I typed this, not that you need 2 copies to express as ginger in a female but only 1 copy to express as ginger in a male, but that _if_ the female was expressing only 1 copy of ginger, the other colour being expressed at the same time would make her a tortie.


You are correct about the dilute versions of the colour genes. As Oriental Slave adds, fawn is the dilute of cinnamon. The dilute gene is an autosomal recessive gene so two are required for the dilution to be expressed.

As I said before, the only sexlinked colour gene is the red. All the other colour and pattern genes are separate autosomal dominant or recessive genes. *All cats* have two basic colour genes (any combination of black, chocolate or cinnamon.) These can be established with DNA tests. The red gene is epistatic, masking the colours beneath. All a ginger male's male offspring will be non-red (unless the red gene has come from the female) because he has not passed on his red gene so the underlying colour will be revealed. Similarly, a female with only one red gene will have her red gene masking the underlying colour in some of the cells whereas the underlying colour will show in the others.

A red female will have 2 red genes and 2 colour genes (in the DSH population probably both black.)
If she is a tabby she will have 2 agouti genes or one agouti gene and one non-agouti gene.
If she is a self she will have 2 non-agouti genes.
She will have either 2 dense colour genes or one dense and one dilute.
She will also have tabby pattern genes which are separate genes from the agouti gene. And so on.......


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> You are correct about the dilute versions of the colour genes. As Oriental Slave adds, fawn is the dilute of cinnamon. The dilute gene is an autosomal recessive gene so two are required for the dilution to be expressed.
> 
> As I said before, the only sexlinked colour gene is the red. All the other colour and pattern genes are separate autosomal dominant or recessive genes. *All cats* have two basic colour genes (any combination of black, chocolate or cinnamon.) These can be established with DNA tests. The red gene is epistatic, masking the colours beneath. All a ginger male's male offspring will be non-red (unless the red gene has come from the female) because he has not passed on his red gene so the underlying colour will be revealed. Similarly, a female with only one red gene will have her red gene masking the underlying colour in some of the cells whereas the underlying colour will show in the others.
> 
> ...


That's really interesting. So a female with only 1 red gene would only have one gene functioning correctly at that locus, her other X chromosome would either have a deletion of the gene ( which would mess up the chromosome's length) or a small mutation ( maybe just one base pair) within the gene to make it non-functional? So whilst red is carried on X and other colours on autosomal chromosomes, the functionality or otherwise of the red gene would have the same visible ( but not DNA sequencing) result _as if _the other colours were alleles (different versions of the same gene) at the same locus of the X chromosome, which must be where the initial idea originated. Would love to get back to biology again, graduated 20 years ago, and last worked in the field ( but not genetics) 10 years ago, research moves on so quickly I'd probably have to pretty much forget everything and start again.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> That's really interesting. So a female with only 1 red gene would only have one gene functioning correctly at that locus, her other X chromosome would either have a deletion of the gene ( which would mess up the chromosome's length) or a small mutation ( maybe just one base pair) within the gene to make it non-functional? So whilst red is carried on X and other colours on autosomal chromosomes, the functionality or otherwise of the red gene would have the same visible ( but not DNA sequencing) result _as if _the other colours were alleles (different versions of the same gene) at the same locus of the X chromosome, which must be where the initial idea originated. Would love to get back to biology again, graduated 20 years ago, and last worked in the field ( but not genetics) 10 years ago, research moves on so quickly I'd probably have to pretty much forget everything and start again.


Surely the non-red gene is the original and the red gene is the mutation. Not all mutations are recessive. (Silver and white are both dominant.) A female with only one red gene would have inherited a 'normal' non-red gene from her dam and a red gene from her sire. As I am always repeating, I am not a scientist. I had to learn about the colour genetics of cats because I was breeding the more recent colours introduced into Siamese and Orientals.

Edit. I should also have said that a female with only one red gene could have inherited a 'normal' non-red gene from her sire and a red gene from her dam.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> Surely the non-red gene is the original and the red gene is the mutation. Not all mutations are recessive.


Yes, you're probably right. One variation coding for red, one for A.N.Other, and precise colour of A.N.Other depending on which other colour genes present. But that might suggest another function for that gene originally, seems strange to have a genetic code to just refer to another set of genes. Would be interesting to read up further when I get a few minutes peace, but with dogs, cats, farm and family it's not that often.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> Yes, you're probably right. One variation coding for red, one for A.N.Other, and precise colour of A.N.Other depending on which other colour genes present. But that might suggest another function for that gene originally, seems strange to have a genetic code to just refer to another set of genes. Would be interesting to read up further when I get a few minutes peace, but with dogs, cats, farm and family it's not that often.


I am sure Oriental Slave and many others can explain how the red gene has its effect on pigment far better than I can. Because all the small wildcats known seem to be black (brown) tabbies, originally with shorthair, presumably other mutations are fairly recent and may have survived because either they were beneficial in certain circumstances or were not detrimental in the conditions cats found themselves. That would be particularly true of domestication.


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## claire8234 (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm sorry I can't offer any advice, I just wanted to say how gorgeous he is and I hope he has a lovely happy life x


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

"Catharinem said:


> ............same thing can happen in other chromosome pairs as well, for example in Downs Syndrome which is 3 copies of I think chromosome 23.


Just for the sake of accuracy,  Downs Syndrome is caused by the presence of all or part of a third copy of Chromosome 21.


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## Little-moomin (Sep 28, 2008)

He is so beautiful regardless!


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

chillminx said:


> "Catharinem said:
> 
> 
> > ............same thing can happen in other chromosome pairs as well, for example in Downs Syndrome which is 3 copies of I think chromosome 23.
> ...


Oops, fuzzy head on today (lack of sleep), which is why I said "I think". 23 came from 23 pairs of chromosomes in humans. Still remember an egg incubator arriving not long after I'd had first baby, I solemnly read out the instructions regarding the "thermo meter" instead of thermometer. Tiredness does turn your brain to mush! Time for hot bath, hot toddy ( feel pretty rough too), and bed, school taxi service in morning again.


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## BrackenFlight (Mar 9, 2015)

I own a potential intersex. He is a male tortie, that outwardly has male parts and had a male neutering, but we were told there is a possibility he has girlie bits too, as male torties are not supposed to exist. 
He/she will most likely be sterile anyway, but it was worth neutering to avoid any complications later. We neutered my boy.


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