# Siamese genetics question



## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Hi 

Ok if a chocolate tabby queen is put to a chocolate tabby stud, what would you get if the queen parents grandparents and great grandparents were lilac and seal tabbies? 

I don't know the sire side of things, so its very one sided but would there be a chance of solid chocolate, lilac and choc tabbies?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

All chocs unless they both carry ditule then some lilacs too


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks bsh!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

Also some tabby some not 'I think.

Forgot which way round it is but sure its 2 tabbies can produce a self but 2 self cant produce tabby.


If it is this way round your looking at 

Choc points,lilac points some with tabby.....if both parents carry dilute.


That make sense?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Thanks bsh!


You are welcome xx


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> Also some tabby some not 'I think.
> 
> Forgot which way round it is but sure its 2 tabbies can produce a self but 2 self cant produce tabby.
> 
> ...


Aah Yes, this would explain the run of tabbies

So a choc tabby and a choc tabby can have choc tabbies,lilac tabbies and solid points being lilac,choc and seal.

My brain hurts already, but thank you!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Aah Yes, this would explain the run of tabbies
> 
> So a choc tabby and a choc tabby can have choc tabbies,lilac tabbies and solid points being lilac,choc and seal.
> 
> My brain hurts already, but thank you!


almost right just not the seal,


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> almost right just not the seal,


Ah, so even if the queens mum is seal tabby, she can't produce seal or seal tabby kittens herself?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Ah, so even if the queens mum is seal tabby, she can't produce seal or seal kittens herself?


Yep that doesn't matter some colours arnt carried.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

tabby can't be carried only self. SO for self you need a self on both sides of the pedigree. Have you got that? If not then you are very unlikely to get selfs (I say that as recessive is forever - unless gene tested) and you can only see back a few generations)

a choc to choc mating gives choc 

do you have lilacs or blues on both sides of the pedigree too?

EDIT: for genetics geeks I understand what I have said inaccurately - it's laymans terms.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

spid said:


> tabby can't be carried only self. SO for self you need a self on both sides of the pedigree. Have you got that? If not then you are very unlikely to get selfs (I say that as recessive is forever - unless gene tested) and you can only see back a few generations)
> 
> a choc to choc mating gives choc
> 
> ...


A bit of a pain and very unhelpful i know, but I haven't got a clue what's on the studs side. All I know he is a choc tabby.

I just have the queens pedigree infront of me,but can see her father was lilac self and few generations after that there are all the selfs, liac,,choc and seal as well as all the tabbies.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> A bit of a pain and very unhelpful i know, but I haven't got a clue what's on the studs side. All I know he is a choc tabby.
> 
> I just have the queens pedigree infront of me,but can see her father was lilac self and few generations after that there are all the selfs, liac,,choc and seal as well as all the tabbies.


Mum most prob carries dilute then,but stil would need to know if dad carries dilute..


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Genetics on a Friday night .... 

Ok question for you ... If both male and female are tabby cp, how come you can get none tabbies from this mating,,, does both have to carry two sets of the tabby gene to get a full tabby litter ... Hope that makes sense


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Tabby Points can be heterogygous i.e carry one self gene and one tabby gene or homozygous and have 2 tabby genes.

Homozygous only produce tabbies whatever they are mated to

Heterozygous can produce selfs if mated to another heterozygous tabby or a self. 

Tabby is dominant over self.....self can be carried by tabby but not the other way around. 

You would need to know the other half of the pedigree really as if Mum is heterozygous tabby but dad is homozygous you will get all tabbies...if not....

Hope this helps, Lisa.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

lisajjl1 said:


> Tabby Points can be heterogygous i.e carry one self gene and one tabby gene or homozygous and have 2 tabby genes.
> 
> Homozygous only produce tabbies whatever they are mated to
> 
> ...


Yes perfect .... Lisa.... Makes more sense written down x


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Shameful excuse to show off some of mine as you did mention tabbies!!!!.....Seal Tabby Point and his Choc Tabby Point Mum.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

lisajjl1 said:


> View attachment 115766
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I love tabbies


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> View attachment 115766
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> View attachment 115767
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Sorry to take this thread off track - but OMG - they are gorgeous :drool:


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MCWillow said:


> Sorry to take this thread off track - but OMG - they are gorgeous :drool:


Seal tabby pt is my favourite colour/pattern.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

*If*, and thats a big if, I get another cat, I am definitely getting a siamese/oriental - probably an ori if I'm honest - I like the diversity - which is why I went for Muffins over Dolls


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MCWillow said:


> *If*, and thats a big if, I get another cat, I am definitely getting a siamese/oriental - probably an ori if I'm honest - I like the diversity - which is why I went for Muffins over Dolls


muffins an dolls :lol:


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

MCWillow said:


> *If*, and thats a big if, I get another cat, I am definitely getting a siamese/oriental - probably an ori if I'm honest - I like the diversity - which is why I went for Muffins over Dolls


Scream!!! Ooh MC you will not regret 

Im hoping my next little one is a choc or seal tabby x


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Scream!!! Ooh MC you will not regret
> 
> Im hoping my next little one is a choc or seal tabby x


I bet it will be a choc


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## lisajjl1 (Jun 23, 2010)

Thanks for the lovely comments guys, just found a couple more of them!!!!....

......and may have a Lilac Tabby in my Seal Tabby boys first litter, very exciting for me and pics to follow!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> Hi
> 
> Ok if a chocolate tabby queen is put to a chocolate tabby stud, what would you get if the queen parents grandparents and great grandparents were lilac and seal tabbies?
> 
> I don't know the sire side of things, so its very one sided but would there be a chance of solid chocolate, lilac and choc tabbies?


If you are thinking of taking a queen to a stud whose pedigree you've not seen stop right now. Ask his owner for a copy - if they are cagey look for another stud.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

lisajjl1 said:


> Thanks for the lovely comments guys, just found a couple more of them!!!!....
> 
> ......and may have a Lilac Tabby in my Seal Tabby boys first litter, very exciting for me and pics to follow!


we might have some lilac or blue tabby pts in this litter,bit young yet to tell.

Last year I got blue tortie tabby cp and lilac tortie tabby cps couldn't tell they were tabby till about 8 wk though.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

MollyMilo said:


> Aah Yes, this would explain the run of tabbies
> 
> So a choc tabby and a choc tabby can have choc tabbies,lilac tabbies and solid points being lilac,choc and seal.
> 
> My brain hurts already, but thank you!


Tabby, dilute and colour are inherited completely separately.

There is one gene that controls if a cat is a tabby or not called the Agouti gene. The dominant version produces tabby, this is an agouti cat and is written A. The recessive version is usually called non-agouti and is written a.

All the cat's chromosones are in pairs so you get two copies of each gene, one from father and one from mother.

Combinations of A and a are AA, Aa and aa. The first two are tabby cats, the first is homozygous and the second hetrozygous - the second is carrying non-agouti. The last is a self (solid) cat. The first can only ever produce tabby kittens.

Dilute works in eactly the same way - DD is a black (seal/brown) / chocolate / cinnamon / red cat, Dd looks the same but carries dilute, dd is a blue / lilac / fawn / cream cat. A cat with DD can only every produce non-dilute kittens.

How the cat looks is called it's phenotype, it's genes are it's genotype. With recessive traits the two are the same, with dominant ones you can't deduce the genotype from the phenotype. Unless you know otherwise, you would write tabby as A- because you have no idea if it's AA or Aa.

Colour is slightly more complicated as there are three genes - B (black / seal / brown), b (chocolate) and b1 (cinnamon). Black is always expressed which is why two chocolates cannot produce a black or blue kitten.

Since the female has a lilac self as a parent she must carry dilute, and she must carry non-agouti so depending on what she is bred with, she can produce chocolate and lilac tabby, and chocolate and lilac self (solid).

The male is chocolate tabby but we have no idea what he carries. His pedigree might show what he carries, past litters might, and gene tests can also show if he carries dilute and/or non-agouti. He would be written A-b-D-. Actually he is probably bb - not many Siamese carry cinnamon - but without seeing his pedigree you don't know. We know about the female - she is Aab-Dd. The same reservation applies about b- vs bb.

List of Feline Genetic Tests | Langford Veterinary Services

HOWEVER as per my previous post, don't mate your cat with a male whose pedigree you've not seen. I have no idea if you are planning to make her, this is a just in case warning.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> If you are thinking of taking a queen to a stud whose pedigree you've not seen stop right now. Ask his owner for a copy - if they are cagey look for another stud.


Thanks OS, that is very good advice for someone about to do this. I'm not though, just day dreaming. I don't even breed  x


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Tabby, dilute and colour are inherited completely separately.
> 
> There is one gene that controls if a cat is a tabby or not called the Agouti gene. The dominant version produces tabby, this is an agouti cat and is written A. The recessive version is usually called non-agouti and is written a.
> 
> ...


Thank you OS! That is very interesting and informative

This is exactly what I needed. I know the female can now produce lilac selfs and choc tabbies.. Just what I'm after  actually I've seen her choc tabbies, they are scrummy 

Not mating anyone to anything at present


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

MollyMilo said:


> A bit of a pain and very unhelpful i know, but I haven't got a clue what's on the studs side. All I know he is a choc tabby.
> 
> I just have the queens pedigree infront of me,but can see her father was lilac self and few generations after that there are all the selfs, liac,,choc and seal as well as all the tabbies.





we love bsh's said:


> Mum most prob carries dilute then,but stil would need to know if dad carries dilute..


Oh she VERY DEFINITELY carries dilute - she has no choice is her father was lilac. And she also carries for self - as her dad was a self. Both those genes are recessive so he had two copies of each and could ONLY pass those genes on.


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## Firedog (Oct 19, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Tabby, dilute and colour are inherited completely separately.
> 
> There is one gene that controls if a cat is a tabby or not called the Agouti gene. The dominant version produces tabby, this is an agouti cat and is written A. The recessive version is usually called non-agouti and is written a.
> 
> ...


Very interesting but that made my head hurt. Two paracetamol please.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Ok, now How do you get tortie points? Lilac tortie, blue tortie for example


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

MollyMilo said:


> Ok, now How do you get tortie points? Lilac tortie, blue tortie for example


by either having a tortie parent or a red or cream dad.

Lilac or blue tortie are the dilutes of the tortie pattern.

So to get a lilac tortie you can get in a number of ways but hers an example you have a choc pt carrying dilute x cream point carrying choc, you could get lilac tortie pts


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

You could also have a red or cream mum, BSH. 

MM, torties are just a mixture of the black series and the red series (seal, choc and lilac are considered part of the black series). So you need either a mum tho is a tortie of some description, or one parent from each series. So one parent would either need to be seal, blue, choc, lilac, and the other would need to be red or cream.

To get the different types of torties depends on what mum and dad are carrying. Seal and choc torties are dominant, so you would need at least one parent to be seal, red or choc to get those. Lilac and blue torties are dilute, so the parents would either need to be both dilute, so the black series is lilac and blue, and the red series is cream. However, parents could also be dominant as long as they carry the dilute gene.

Make sense?


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Thanks for that Carly! It does make sense yes xx


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

I am getting a chocolate tabby siamese kitten at the end of July


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

rose said:


> I am getting a chocolate tabby siamese kitten at the end of July


Woohoo!

I'm excited for you! 
Do you have a photo?


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

No have a photo the lady posted to me but she isn't very good with computers!
I had first pick to hold one and couldn't decide between lilac or choc tabby. Obviously the colours aren't clear at 5 weeks. She will post some more and I will visit at 9 weeks. Bless.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

rose said:


> No have a photo the lady posted to me but she isn't very good with computers!
> I had first pick to hold one and couldn't decide between lilac or choc tabby. Obviously the colours aren't clear at 5 weeks. She will post some more and I will visit at 9 weeks. Bless.


So exciting!! Lilac and choc tabbies stunning!

Milos ( lilac tabby) asking, ' is rose sure she wants a choc tabby? '


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

Oh don't, I couldn't decide. In the end I thought the choc tabby would compliment my two boys who are both red points!


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

rose said:


> Oh don't, I couldn't decide. In the end I thought the choc tabby would compliment my two boys who are both red points!


Good choice!

I can't wait to see him/her


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Shouldn't be any problem telling lilac from chocolate at that age. Are we allowed to see the photos? Please?


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## rose (Apr 29, 2009)

The only photo I have is a printed one through the post. You could see the darkish noses and a few faint lines on their faces but not very different. I just went by looking at adult ones on the Internet. I didn't really mind which one but had to make a decision so the breeder could hold one. I could have gone and viewed them but wouldn't have been able to touch them as they are too young.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

But you could have taken photos for us!


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

id say looking at the paw pads will be the easiest way to tell if really young,lilac will be very pink pads choc will be darker milky choc colour or dark pinkish.


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## MollyMilo (Feb 16, 2012)

Me again! 

Right some more Siamese questions for the group.

A choc tabby to a lilac tabby, will they all be tabbies? 

How soon can you tell the difference between a choc tabby and a solid? Sometimes the solids have faint stripey tails! 

When can you see the paw pad colour come through?


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

MollyMilo said:


> A choc tabby to a lilac tabby, will they all be tabbies?
> 
> How soon can you tell the difference between a choc tabby and a solid?


They will all be tabbies, unless both of the parents carry non-agouti (in which case you can get solids too).

The noses of tabbies are pink(ish), whereas the solids have solid noses so I think the difference can be seen quite early?


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

northerndarkness said:


> they will all be tabbies, unless both of the parents carry non-agouti (in which case you can get solids too).
> 
> The noses of tabbies are pink(ish), whereas the solids have solid noses so i think the difference can be seen quite early?


yep although very faint in 1 week olds the nose leather in a solid will be evenly coloured the colour of the leather in a tabbY will be coloured on the outline only and still be pink in the middle,iv found.


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