# Specialist referral to urology?



## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hi

As some of you know from my other thread we still can't find the cause of Finn's urinary incontinence (nor can we stop it completely!) so he's been referred to a specialist hospital and I understand they will put dye in his system then scan/x-Ray him to see where his ureters etc are and ensure there is no physical/plumbing abnormality.

Our vet was happy to refer as he's run out of ideas.....but he feels there's more chance of us winning the lottery than there being anything anatomically wrong given he was totally dry until 8 mths old......I need to know though before I accept that this is just the way he is as he is only 16mths old!

We've agreed to stop all medication (propalin/enurace/testosterone jabs etc) and see how bad he is without any of it....we stopped everything Friday night and interestingly he's no worse so far....couple of episodes over the weekend but no worse than he was on the drugs.....we'll see when they are well and truly cleared from his system!

Anyone ever been through these urinary function tests and can tell me about their experience?

Thanks.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Hi
> 
> As some of you know from my other thread we still can't find the cause of Finn's urinary incontinence (nor can we stop it completely!) so he's been referred to a specialist hospital and I understand they will put dye in his system then scan/x-Ray him to see where his ureters etc are and ensure there is no physical/plumbing abnormality.
> 
> ...


I know basics about some of the causes of urinary incompetence in dogs and have known humans who have had to have their plumbing checked out so to speak, so it wont probably be the greatest of help. I hope that the urologist can find the cause or at least have some other suggestions that can manage and stop it at least.

You may have seen these already but if not they look pretty decent on urinary incontinence in dogs, and they are from places like colleges of veterinary medicine. They should be some information on there that may be of some use or help hopefully,

Urinary Incontinence

UC Davis School of Vet Med:

This might be of more help its from a vet specialists on urinary incompetance and seems to list all the tests that are/can be done

What is likely to happen during an investigation of urinary incontinence?
Urinary incontinence in dogs and cats

Let us know how you get on.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Good afternoon Sled Dog Hotel!

I've just had a call from the veterinary hospital, Finn has an ectopic ureter! 

They are keeping him in overnight as he's been under too long today already and is full of dye, they are operating on him in the morning.

A full surgical team assessed him while he was under and are fairly confident this should fix him.....fingers crossed!!

The specialist did seem confident that was what it was when we had a very long detailed chat with him this morning.....I am so relieved, there had to be a reason.....I just hope and pray he's one of those totally cured by surgery!

Will look forward to yet another fortnight of buster collar wall damage and wound cleaning!!


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Scrap that!!!

I am so cross/disappointed/upset......after such a confident definitive diagnosis yesterday the surgeon has just rang to say he's ok and coming round but he is anatomically normal inside!

They've opened him up for nothing! How can a specialist hospital get that so wrong?? Should I be suspicious as to the extent of the diagnostic scans/xrays yesterday?

He is still dribbling but now has a wound to recover from after everything else hes been through! Not to metion the cost of all this!

The surgeon says they now need to consider why he is incontinent and will get back to me. She said the scans were "suspicious".....yesterday it was definitely an EU and they were confident the surgery would fix him....we weren't even asked if we wanted them to operate and trusted it was needed!

I had a few hours of optimism thinking he might be fixed after all these months and now I feel so confused. :mellow:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Scrap that!!!
> 
> I am so cross/disappointed/upset......after such a confident definitive diagnosis yesterday the surgeon has just rang to say he's ok and coming round but he is anatomically normal inside!
> 
> ...


Sorry I missed your post yesterday, and only just caught up today and have now seen both.

I would be upset too more like devastated and extremely angry, I know what etopic urethras are etc but obviously not in great detail of loads on the subject.

found this full link below on the diagnostics, did he have a CT scan too according to this its apparently the best diagnostic tool for EU.

Diagnostic testing prior to surgery
Complete blood cell count
Biochemical profile to make sure that the kidneys and other internal organs are healthy
Urinalysis and urine culture to check for infection of the bladder and or kidney
Abdominal ultrasound to evaluate the structure of the kidneys; the ureters usually cannot be seen with ultrasound unless they are dilated
An excretory urogram involves giving the pet a type of dye or contrast media through an intravenous catheter. The dye is excreted into the urine. As the dye passes through the ureters they may be seen with radiographs (x-rays)
CT scan is the best diagnostic tool used to diagnose ectopic ureters. This scan is performed if the excretory urogram does not provide a definitive diagnosis. Below is a CT scan image (this cross-section is through the lower part of the bladder at the level of the green arrow in the illustration above) of a normal ureter (labeled N) entering the bladder (labeled B) and a dilated ectopic ureter (labeled E).

If you look on the full link you can see actual scans with the explanations below. It does show in close up detailed photographs the surgery to correct it too, so if you don't like stuff like that particularly then don't scroll down further then this bit, and the last CT scan photo below that.

The CT scan below shows a dilated ectopic ureter (labeled E) located within the urethral wall (this cross-section is at the level of the red arrow in the illustration above); also take note of the the smaller ectopic ureter labeled with an arrow

Ectopic ureter

I am so sorry, you have had to go through this and that your poor dog has had an operation that wasn't needed which is the worst thing.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> Scrap that!!!
> 
> I am so cross/disappointed/upset......after such a confident definitive diagnosis yesterday the surgeon has just rang to say he's ok and coming round but he is anatomically normal inside!
> 
> ...


TOTALLY understand your frustration and upset.

But, to be fair, the ONLY way a surgeon often does KNOW is by doing what they just did. Open the dog up and have a look what exactly is going on. Scans and other things often give an indication but until they look at it - physically look at it - noone really knows. Exploratory surgery is the pits, but sometimes there isn't a way around it.

Wish I had a helpful hint or recommendation. Is this dribbling a new development or has it been going on since forever?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

SDH - I have rang the hospital since my last post and queried all the following in my sternest not happy voice, bearing in mind this was a nurse not the surgeon I was speaking to:

- How is he?....fine, eating (he's half lab....course he's eating!) and being monitored for pain levels. How big is his wound? .....about 6 inches long.
- Exactly what diagnostics did you do yesterday?.... Dye contrast X-Ray and CT scan, aswell as all relevant urine and blood tests.
- How could we be told yesterday with such certainty yet face today's outcome?...."I think you were wrong to be told anything certain as the scan would not be conclusive but we were shocked to see he was normal as the whole team who assessed him very convinced there was a problem."
- What are you doing next?....."The two surgeons are meeting tomorrow to discuss and they will call you."
- What qualification did yesterday's vet have for this problem? - he's not a urologist or soft tissue specialist but he specialises in general medicine.
- How many EU has the hospital dealt with? - "I don't know I've never been involved in one"

The are keeping him overnight again to make sure everything is fully functional before discharge, the nurse said the surgeon opened his bladder and checked him out fully so they can 100% say he is anatomically correct which I guess was always a possible outcome and one we expected from the scans not surgery!! He is young and fit and will get over this but I feel like I have been through the mill in the last 24hrs and we are no further forward!

My vet is calling me first thing to discuss.....I do accept that an exploratory op may have been a more accurate description of today but it was not what was sold to us yesterday...I was so excited that he would be "fixed" and I trusted them! When they rang me this morning to tell me he was ok from yesterday's anaesthetic I asked what exactly they were doing to him, ie keyhole, open surgery, how complex etc and she offered to get the surgeon to ring first but I said no I trusted their confidence in the diagnosis yesterday and looked forward to hearing how he was afterwards. 

He has been dribbling since January when he had a GA to shave his legs and treat his skin allergies.....he came home that night and pooled urine, we put it down to the anaesthetic effects but sadly it's been an intermittent problem ever since, not constant, most we've had is 10 days in a row dry....tried all sorts....no-one knows why!!


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

You have every right to be upset, disappointed and miffed beyond description. I'd be, too. Livid on my dog's behalf more than anything

On the other hand....you CAN pick him up tomorrow and bring him back home. A friend of mine took her Lurcher girl in for a minor op, something went disasterously wrong...and the only thing she brought back was a purple collar and leash. Not a consolation for your experience, I know. Just another perspective.

You'll get to the bottom of this. For all you know the 2nd GA and the rummaging around fixed whatever inexplicable issue he had.

Here's to hoping.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Ahhh I know.....how awful for your friend. 

He's only 16 mths and this is his fourth GA, another nurse had just rang to update us and says she'll send a photo of him being cuddled.....

They have volunteered to put the scans on a disc for me to see exactly what they saw that made them so sure it was his ureters. I feel more reassured that the op was probably necessary to be sure but I still feel emotionally wrung out!

Probably doesn't help that I am only 4 weeks post abdominal surgery myself and more than a little hormonal today!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> SDH - I have rang the hospital since my last post and queried all the following in my sternest not happy voice, bearing in mind this was a nurse not the surgeon I was speaking to:
> 
> - How is he?....fine, eating (he's half lab....course he's eating!) and being monitored for pain levels. How big is his wound? .....about 6 inches long.
> - Exactly what diagnostics did you do yesterday?.... Dye contrast X-Ray and CT scan, aswell as all relevant urine and blood tests.
> ...


Are these the people that your GP vets have reffered you too? I thought the whole point was that they were going to refer you to a urologist or at least specialists in urinary incontinence that was the whole point.

Ive just looked up one of those links I gave you the other day that I found when you wanted more information and I thought they may explain things, I think it was the last one, which was from a veterinary specialist referral service and they seem to have specialist services in both urinary incontinence and soft tissue surgery.

Their typical investigation they say for urinary incontinence will include some or all of the following tests, and by the looks of the list there is more that can be done.

Blood tests - to test for evidence of kidney function or electrolyte abnormality
•Urine analysis - bladder infections are common in incontinent patients and they not only contribute to urine leakage but can cause complications if they are not diagnosed and treated before surgery
• Ultrasound scan - this will be used to examine the kidneys and bladder for abnormalities (e.g. growths etc.) and for evidence of where the ureters, running from the kidneys, enter into the bladder
• X-rays - normal, plain X-rays are useful, but other radiographic studies can be very helpful in following the structure of the urinary tract when assessing incontinent patients

•Intravenous urogram (IVU) - in this study a dye which shows up on X-rays is injected into the bloodstream and followed into the kidneys and further on down the ureters and into the bladder. This is useful to detect abnormalities of the ureters, including ectopic ureters (see above)
•Double contrast cystogram - here both air and dye are injected up the urethra into the bladder. This is useful for examining the position of the bladder neck and when looking for bladder wall abnormalities or evidence of bladder stones
•Retrograde studies - dye is injected into the vagina and the urethra and bladder - this technique is used to examine the anatomy of the vagina and possibly reveal ectopic ureters not seen in the IVU
•Cystoscopy - a small camera can be placed in the bladder neck via the urethra in medium and large breed dogs. This technique is very useful in ruling out ectopic ureters.

They also give a list of a lot of causes for urinary incontinence too. If you didn't have through read before see the whole thing below it explains it in more detail.

Urinary incontinence in dogs and cats

If this is true what you were told
What qualification did yesterday's vet have for this problem? - he's not a urologist or soft tissue specialist but he specialises in general medicine.
- How many EU has the hospital dealt with? - "I don't know I've never been involved in one"

If it was a referral why haven't you been sent to somewhere who does specialise that's what I cant understand.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Ive just had a nosey on the website of a veterinary specialist Ive been to a few times, to see what they offer in the way of treatment for urinary incontinence. Admittedly though Ive only used them for specialist orthopaedics and also for neurology when Nan had her seizures but this looked possibly interesting. You need to read the whole thing, but seems they can do some bladder ops without conventional surgery.

Ectopic ureters 
A congential problem resulting in incontinence primarily in the young dog but occasionally diagnosed in the older dog. Traditionally surgery is required, however using a combination of cystoscopy and fluoroscopy, the ectopic ureters can be repositioned to open into the bladder. 
*
Urethral bulking injection for urinary incontinence
When medical management of incontinence has failed bulking injections are an alternative to traditional surgeries. Injections of a bulking material are made into the urethra (outflow of the bladder). 
*

The second bit may be interesting, obviously it probably depends on what the problem might actually be and if the dog is a candidate. Have a read through the whole thing it will explain it more.

Interventional Procedures


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Thank you....very helpful as always! I'll have a read.

I intend to ask my vet why he referred me there when he rings in the morning.....it is a multi-disciplinary hospital and when I rang to book the appointment they checked the problem and said we needed to see "x" as if that was his specialism.

I accept not asking anymore about it and assuming he was a relevant specialist.....it's only the events of today that have made me question it. Yesterday he was so confident and knowledgeable that I had no reason to doubt any if it.

Apparently the two "specialists" are meeting this evening ahead if a course they are both on tomorrow to discuss Finn and get back to me tomorrow.....I'll see what they suggest and Aldo what my local vet says about the next step.

I just want him home now in case he thinks we've abandoned him!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Thank you....very helpful as always! I'll have a read.
> 
> I intend to ask my vet why he referred me there when he rings in the morning.....it is a multi-disciplinary hospital and when I rang to book the appointment they checked the problem and said we needed to see "x" as if that was his specialism.
> 
> ...


If you asked for a specialist urology or incontinence specialist appointment then naturally that's what you would expect to be getting.

What an horrendous day, no wonder your frazzled and worried, its horrible and worrying when you have to leave them anyway, I had to leave both of mine at different times, Kobi overnight and the next day too, so know how you feel. I do hope you can get some answers in the morning and they can fix this problem. But if your not happy and they are not specialists as such they you can still ask for a second opinion.

Please let us know how he is doing and you too for that matter. x


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I will thank you....will keep you posted....off to search for doggy diapers!! Lol! Joke!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> I will thank you....will keep you posted....off to search for doggy diapers!! Lol! Joke!


After this lot and the worry I sincerely hope it will be sorted.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Today's update......

My heart is breaking for him.....we got him home this afternoon and he was so pleased to see us all....his wound is massive and looks awful....he is almost totally incontinent and persistently trying to wee in the garden with only tiny squirts most squats.....the vet says that's normal for this type of surgery and should improve.

He's eating, pooping and so loving....just like our lovely boy despite what we've just put him through!

Our own vet rang at 8.30 this morning and was lovely....he's dealing directly with them from here on in once they get back to us with their ideas of what they will do next....we were promised a phone call today but have heard nothing and both specialist vets are on leave next week.

I feel so bad for Finn and not sure what on earth we could try once he's recovered that we haven't already tried....we'll focus on getting him through this recovery first.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

I am so sorry for you both.....he is such a sweetheart. Those mournful eyes, I really get that you wanted to drive a stake through those vets hearts. Poor bear.

When you said you tried all manner of things .....what exactly were they? Antibiotics? Other?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

At this stage the vets will be concentrating on trying to establish the cause of the problem and this might take some time.

Try to keep positive and take your cues from your vet. They are the ones who are currently seeing him and know best what the best way forward will be.

Try to stay positive and have a quiet, calm weekend with your pooch!

<3


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Trust your instincts would be my advice. Having been in a similar position with Indie where we put a great deal of trust in a specialist orthopaedic vet only to be let down very badly I was glad that I kicked up a stink, after months of letters and a meeting got a full refund and most importantly asked my own vet to refer us elsewhere for a second opinion where she was sorted out properly (apart from the damage already done). I remember the day we dropped her off for her elbow surgery having misgivings about whether we were doing the right thing and then not seeing the specialist but an intern and just not feeling confident and will kick myself for ever more that we left her there and didn't just walk away taking her with us. 

I hope things settle down for your lovely boy soon and if not that someone can help you.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I am so sorry for you both.....he is such a sweetheart. Those mournful eyes, I really get that you wanted to drive a stake through those vets hearts. Poor bear.
> 
> When you said you tried all manner of things .....what exactly were they? Antibiotics? Other?


We started with several different rounds of antibiotics even though his urine samples never showed any more than a trace of infection/cystitis.

We have had him on propalin for months, we gave him two rounds of testosterone injections and tried a month of Enurace in addition to the propalin.

He often leaked more after little things that might stress him, ear cleaning, dew claw trimming but never after big things like his toe amputation and short trips to the kennels. He is not an outwardly anxious pup....very sociable, has a regular dog walker who comes to the house and takes him out often, he's never clingy but clearly loves his family.

The first time we noticed it was after his second GA, a couple of months after his neutering....up until then he had been totally dry and housetrained since 10 weeks old (we've had him from 8 weeks).

Some days he never drips or pools, others he can be dry all morning then have a few hours in the afternoon when he drips involuntarily while walking then dry all evening. He hardly ever leaks urine through the night in his bed! Some days he pools every time he relaxes then drips all day. Never voluntarily weeing though!

He has had blood tests including Myasthenia Gravis as he did drop down panting a lot for a while in the spring but that was just puppy play exhaustion I think as it didn't last long! Also bear in mind he was having diarrhoea/tummy troubles and nasty skin lesions from chewing and biting whilst all this was first going on....we sorted his diet and the digestive/bowel stuff resolved and we had Sensitest bloods done and discovered his allergies wee house dust mites/mugwort and lambs quarter weeds/skin yeast (all environmental but essentially he's allergic to inside outside and himself!)..... Just in case these other conditions stressed him causing him to leak we tried adaptil plug ins too! (Then swabbed fabric for leather sofas, changed carpet to laminate and bought an air purifier!). The allergies are now controlled with low dose Apoquel, malaseb shampoo and Piriton!

He's an enigma but there must be a reason.....physical, psychological, hormonal, behavioural......is it any wonder we're desperate?!


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Trust your instincts would be my advice. Having been in a similar position with Indie where we put a great deal of trust in a specialist orthopaedic vet only to be let down very badly I was glad that I kicked up a stink, after months of letters and a meeting got a full refund and most importantly asked my own vet to refer us elsewhere for a second opinion where she was sorted out properly (apart from the damage already done). I remember the day we dropped her off for her elbow surgery having misgivings about whether we were doing the right thing and then not seeing the specialist but an intern and just not feeling confident and will kick myself for ever more that we left her there and didn't just walk away taking her with us.
> 
> I hope things settle down for your lovely boy soon and if not that someone can help you.


It's our instincts we are battling with....we feel railroaded in the last 48hrs and guilty we didn't ask for lots more info regarding what and why they were doing. We do accept the outcome may have been the same if we had agreed to exploratory surgery and we would have done if there was any chance of it fixing him.

The cynic in me feels this was a pre-authorised guaranteed direct insurance claim so they chucked the lot at him very quickly without talking to us but then I really can't believe a reputable hospital would put a dog through that for money and without good cause.

Our vet is mad at the whole situation but more the lack of communication and handling of our expectations, he feels the surgery was necessary but we should never have been given a conclusive diagnosis and guarantee of successful outcome. Because of that I accept the surgery was needed and can only feel disappointed it didn't provide a clear cause.....he is almost totally incontinent tonight and clearly uncomfortable but he's had two GAs in just over 48hrs and his abdomen and bladder sliced open!

I am terrified that once he recovers from the op the problem is worse than ever because of the probing of ureters etc! Our vet also suggested further surgery may be required if they didn't fully explore valves and sphincters etc whilst they were in there and just checked the tubing etc.....that's why he plans to talk directly to them.

Trying not to be cynical about the fact the only thing they forgot to discharge him with is the disc of scan images they promised me......


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

It is possible to do some less intrusive tests using dyes in human urology. I'm not sure if it's applicable to dogs, though. It could be more difficult as dogs generally don't urinate "on command" like humans.

But you never know.

Can you ask your vet if there are less intrusive tests which could be done before resorting to further surgery?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> It is possible to do some less intrusive tests using dyes in human urology. I'm not sure if it's applicable to dogs, though. It could be more difficult as dogs generally don't urinate "on command" like humans.
> 
> But you never know.
> 
> Can you ask your vet if there are less intrusive tests which could be done before resorting to further surgery?


Thanks.

The specialist used dye contrast radiography and CT imaging on Wednesday before he rang us to tell us he definitely had an ectopic ureter and the surgery would fix him.....we trusted him, he seemed so confident. He never once suggested this may not be the case. We expected no more intrusion than this to determine normal anatomy.

I don't want to sound like my problem is the surgery alone just because it turned out not to help.....we admit we would have agreed to exploratory surgery if there was a chance of giving us resolution.....i know things don't always go to plan but it all feels wrong.....


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Do ask for the scans ASAP. Wouldn't that be swell if they "misplaced" them...( ehem).

Finnboy, I belong to a couple of breed specific international forums. They have a fair share of seasoned owners, vets, human doctors ( and I could swear one was a urologist)....if you want, I run your case past them.

My own experience with canine male incontinence ( aside from when the dogs picked up a bladder infection which responded to antibiotica, floods if urine!) is neigh to non-existant. Over the years I have only encountered it - via reading - a few time in young males. One was a prostate issue and one....totally bizarre....disappeared after the dog had vit B 12 injections. 


To recap, after trialling antibiotics and 2 different incontinence meds, Finn had

An ultrasound 
X-rays
A contrast CT of ...?
"Look n'see" surgery

he was checked for bladder infection, UTI, bladder stones, kidney issues? It started after he was neutered (incidentally, how long after he was vaccinated?) and to date you have no diagnosis. He either drips urine or sometimes pools but primarily whilst ambulant aka during the day. 

Do YOU think it could be a side effect of the meds he is on to control his allergies? 

Have you, as yet, ever explored any alternative medicine avenues like acupuncture or anything else?

I hope your gorgeous chap can forget about it ASAP. I know where you are coming from - it wasn't quite kosher how that played out. I'd feel rail roaded nd duped, too. Betrayed, actually. We HAVE to trust the professionals when we hand over our pets in good faith and with a shakey heart. And that wasn't cool.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

If the vets have been guilty of anything- and I thinks that's very debatable- it was overconfidence.

It's not at all unusual for something to show up on scans and x rays which, when viewed directly, doesn't quite match up. This isn't incompetence. X rays and scans don't always tell the whole story. They can be ambiguous and difficult to interperate. I think it's terribly unfair to accuse them of anything more serious than a case of overconfidence.

..and to suggest it was somehow sinister in intent is ridiculous.

Finboy, I Hope you have a quiet weekend with him


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Do ask for the scans ASAP. Wouldn't that be swell if they "misplaced" them...( ehem).
> 
> Finnboy, I belong to a couple of breed specific international forums. They have a fair share of seasoned owners, vets, human doctors ( and I could swear one was a urologist)....if you want, I run your case past them. please feel free all ideas welcome!
> 
> ...


Thank you sooo much for trying to help.....the receptionist at discharge said she hadn't had a chance to put the images on to a disc yet but she promised to do them and post them to me.....my local vet plans to get them sent to him too. :smile5:


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> If the vets have been guilty of anything- and I thinks that's very debatable- it was overconfidence.
> 
> It's not at all unusual for something to show up on scans and x rays which, when viewed directly, doesn't quite match up. This isn't incompetence. X rays and scans don't always tell the whole story. They can be ambiguous and difficult to interperate. I think it's terribly unfair to accuse them of anything more serious than a case of overconfidence.
> 
> ...


I agree totally that if anything it's overconfidence by one vet at the hospital and I don't really think there is anything sinister going on......other than a shocking insensitive lack of information and communication that comes across as a potentially blasé attitude to my dog. I know deep down he needed the surgery but I so desperately wanted a different outcome. :mellow:

I hope I've put across in all my posts that in the absence of any information (and primarily out of concern for Finn) my mind has swung from one extreme to the other.....I am assuming their thought processes and disappointed that they haven't rang me today to discuss it as they promised to more than once....even just to tell me they are working on it......now they are both off on leave.

I am an overthinker and a worrier but I'm also a scientist who desperately wants to know the reason for Finns problem (and there HAS to be a reason)....I know vets aren't miracle workers and I have realised how unusual this specific problem is.....there apparently aren't many specific dog urology experts due to the low number of cases.

Thank you for wishing us a quiet weekend.....he seems a little more settled now as he sleeps on my feet (I'm not going anywhere Finn!!) and almost even made it outside to pee last time so fingers crossed he will be ok.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Today's update......
> 
> My heart is breaking for him.....we got him home this afternoon and he was so pleased to see us all....his wound is massive and looks awful....he is almost totally incontinent and persistently trying to wee in the garden with only tiny squirts most squats.....the vet says that's normal for this type of surgery and should improve.
> 
> ...


So sorry you are no further forward today. Personally I would be livid if I still hadnt got the promised phone call today especially if the vets concerned are now on holiday next week. I would also be wanting the scan data that was promised and hasn't materialised too.

I feel so bad for all of you to be honest, especially as he seems worse at the moment then when he went in. I do hope you can get something resolved and they also don't keep you waiting too long.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Morning!

Finn had a settled night in his bed with his cone on.....seemingly pleased to be home.

The only thing really bothering me is the level of incontinenece but all vets have said that is ok for the day after bladder surgery.......it's scary.....he isn't telling us so I can only assume he isn't feeling the warning signs or urges yet.

He didn't bark or cry once in the night yet this morning his bedding is sodden and the kitchen floor is literally covered in pools of urine and wet paw prints.

Crikey if we ever thought we had an incontinence problem before now it was nothing compared to this!! We have to leave water out for him all the time....he's not drinking exvessively but it's seemingly going straight through him at the moment!

Keeping everything crossed that this is all normal post operative recovery and his control returns soon (if it doesn't we are in a whole different ball game!!!) other than that his wound is clean and he can still wag that tail fifty to the dozen.......thank goodness for baby wipes to keep his wet legs dry!!


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## mollypip (Aug 17, 2011)

Im reading this and just had to say I feel so sorry for you. What a dreadful situation. Ive nothing else to offer as I know little about the subject but I do so hope things improve. I think you have a point that when insurance is covering costs there is a tendancy to do everything in the form of procedures, while without insurance minimal options are discussed. I too would be angry, especially with the lack of communication. I so hope things get better.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

mollypip said:


> Im reading this and just had to say I feel so sorry for you. What a dreadful situation. Ive nothing else to offer as I know little about the subject but I do so hope things improve. I think you have a point that when insurance is covering costs there is a tendancy to do everything in the form of procedures, while without insurance minimal options are discussed. I too would be angry, especially with the lack of communication. I so hope things get better.


Ahh thank you, I know no-one has the answers really but it's lovely to be able to come on here and unload a bit amongst like-minded doggy loving folk. :thumbup1:


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> If the vets have been guilty of anything- and I thinks that's very debatable- it was overconfidence.
> 
> It's not at all unusual for something to show up on scans and x rays which, when viewed directly, doesn't quite match up. This isn't incompetence. X rays and scans don't always tell the whole story. They can be ambiguous and difficult to interperate. I think it's terribly unfair to accuse them of anything more serious than a case of overconfidence.
> 
> ..and to suggest it was somehow sinister in intent is ridiculous.


OS...please don't interpret this as combative. It isn't.

BUT

Whilst I fundamentally agree with you, the specific manner, the delivery, in which Finnboy was seemingly sold this, in retrospect completly superfluous and highly invasive, surgery was not kosher.

There is a phenomenal difference in stating "there is an indication that it could be EU but we'd really need to open him up to confirm - would you like us to proceed? " and saying " we found the cause, it is EU, we will operate and surgically correct the issue".

Its fine to say" I don't know, I am unsure" and then let the owner think and perhaps consider other, considerably less invasive, diagnostic procedures first.

But when someone slices open your dog - who likely hopped in the car trustingly and joyfully expecting fab walkies -THEN tells you that, actually, they didn't KNOW anything before and know nothing new now , then hands you a juicy bill, THEN you look ar your chap's bewildered little face and long wound....well THEN you can reserve the right to be as pi**ed and unreasonable as you like. Because it ain't all that unreasonable.

IMO, it borders on unethical. And the word "incompetent" isn't far behind.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

For starters- we were not a party to the conversations between the OP and the vets. It is extremely common when receiving news of this sort, to hook on to the positive and not to hear the negative. I'm not for one moment saying that the OP has mis presented the situation- but it is his interpretation of the situation. (The re has been a huge ammount of research done in the field of "giving important clinical info to laypeople" and the difficulties thereof.)

Secondly- from what he has said, they already completed less invasive investigations- including X-ray contrast film and the next stage would have been exploratory surgery anyway. From what the OP said, they were confident they had established the cause and proceeded appropriately.

Are you aware how often this type of thing happens in human medicine? I can tell you becuase I used to work in the field. It happened every day in the operating theatre, that someone came in for something which seemed obvious from less invasive tests, only to find a completely different story when they were operated on (this was what made surgery particularly interesting for me anyway)

Diagnostic interventions are rarely an exact science- they are a _tool_ to establishing he problem.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

A lady I know on another forum makes these

The Wet Dog Mat - Jacob's Den

I've got one I used when Indie had a leaking wound and now use it in the car for when the dogs are wet and muddy. I know several people who use them with incontinent dogs and say they are very good. You would probably need to pen or crate him overnight though.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> For starters- we were not a party to the conversations between the OP and the vets. It is extremely common when receiving news of this sort, to hook on to the positive and not to hear the negative. I'm not for one moment saying that the OP has mis presented the situation- but it is his interpretation of the situation. (The re has been a huge ammount of research done in the field of "giving important clinical info to laypeople" and the difficulties thereof.)
> 
> Secondly- from what he has said, they already completed less invasive investigations- including X-ray contrast film and the next stage would have been exploratory surgery anyway. From what the OP said, they were confident they had established the cause and proceeded appropriately.
> 
> ...


Do you really think Finnboy put a spin on what was conveyed ? Me, not so much.

Yeah, diagnostic imaging is a tool. How exact and meaningful this tool is depends on

A) the level of expertise of the person evaluating the scan. They better be an imaging specialist or they aren't worth having.

B) the equipment used. An outdated, discarded NHS machine ain't all that helpful...but oddly often used.

C) From what I understand Finnboy's fellow didn't even have an ultrasound scan conducted and evaluated by the relevant specialist.

Be that as it may, if that was my dog I'd wait for him to fully recover, then load him in the car, hop over the border via Eurotunnel and bring him to this clinic 
Home - Tierklinik Hofheim

( hit the "english" button for further info)

Aside from an awesome reputation, you are NOT expected to drop your dog off like a suitcase at the airport, the relevant specialists ARE indeed specialists in the area they say they are specialists in, and my personal choice for diagnostics & imaging would be Dr. Tassani Prell. Who, aside from all manner of credentials is the president of european veterinary imaging, widely published, including imaging on bladder issues in cats and dogs.

The ultimate irony being that, it most likely, would have cost a great deal LESS.

Seems preferable than some overeager, snooty chap handing you a hefty bill with the words "Dunno, really" ( which I am sure didn't occur but amounted to as such)

IMO. Only.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Oh....please don't argue....

Old Shep whilst I respect your point I can categorically quote the exact wording of the diagnosis as the following......over loud speaker in front of my partner.....

"Just letting you know Finn definitely has an ectopic ureter and one of his ureters is not entering his bladder correctly, he has been under too long already this morning and is full of dye so we will keep him overnight and my colleague "Y" will operate on him in the morning as I am"

Our response "oh that is unexpected but good news I suppose....is it definite and will surgery fix the problem?"

"Yes I've had a team of surgical colleagues assess his scans and they are confident this ureter can be reimplanted in the correct position tomorrow "Y" will give you a call after surgery and let you know how he is doing"


That was truly it....we were stunned, even I know from my own research that surgery for EU is only up to 70% curative so I was surprised he was so certain. I wish we were like all public service companies who "record these calls for training purposes!"

I also accept the point you make about agreeing to it anyway if it had been pitched as exploratory....we probably would have done....

My upset as I type is the abandonment that followed the very very quick move to operate....I accept everything you say about selective hearing and I'd be desperate to hear any positives right now but I did not misunderstand his diagnosis and he shouldn't have been so bold if he truly knew what he was looking at! And yes I wouldn't feel half as aggrieved if the surgery had confirmed his diagnosis and we are post-operative with hope of being in that 70%.....he would be back up to hero status!!! I just want my dog better not worse!

Anyway given Finn has just given me a heart attack by jumping a small chicken wire fence in a bid to escape the garden (he has never ever done that before!) then peeing blood..... he has probably ruptured his bladder wound now and sealed his fate so this all becomes truly academic and I'm opening the wine regardless of it on being 11:38am!!!! (Joke!) all wees on lead from now.....:cornut:


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Thank you Hopeattheendofthetunnel.....I'm not spinning anything and your last line is pretty much how it looks to me right now but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that despite being told they were meeting up on Thursday evening to discuss Finn's outcome (before they were both on a course together Friday) that they have a really relaxing week/fortnights annual leave each and one of them finds time to deliver the phone call we were promised at some point later in the month! 

Especially considering how rushed everything was this week....let's face it is wasn't a life threatening situation he's been piddling all round the house for over 9 mths!

I am just a worried upset doggy parent who will be spending the time the vets are on leave helping Finn recover from his op......I'll be more than happy to stand up and be shot down if anyone comes back to me from that hospital with anything helpful at all now!


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> A lady I know on another forum makes these
> 
> The Wet Dog Mat - Jacob's Den
> 
> I've got one I used when Indie had a leaking wound and now use it in the car for when the dogs are wet and muddy. I know several people who use them with incontinent dogs and say they are very good. You would probably need to pen or crate him overnight though.


They look lovely and so comfy.....thank you! I got him vetbed gold to sleep on to prevent dust mites and I think I remember that traps moisture too....he's like the princess and the pea at the moment....only sleeping on 100 towels rather than 100 mattresses! Lol!

Might end up forking out for a new living room rug mind as he seems so much happier sleeping at our feet rather than in his bed at the moment....he's in his bed locked in the kitchen overnight though.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I didn't for one minute mean you had some way spun the news, Finboy! But it's good that you have the conversation on tape- it helps sometimes to replay when you are less stressed and can evaluate what is being said with a clear mind.

I am truly sorry this has happened to your beloved pet and I do hope you get the situation resolved.

Unlike some, I would not blame the vets. IMO, they have not been incompetent.

However, I do think they should have got back to you before they went on leave- that was careless of them. Could your own vet contact the hospital and relay any decisions/ findings to you? If they have discussed his case at the hospital they should have recorded their thoughts and decisions.

And be careful of switching to vets of unknown provenance- a recommendation from a professional holds much more weight than a fancy website.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> For starters- we were not a party to the conversations between the OP and the vets. It is extremely common when receiving news of this sort, to hook on to the positive and not to hear the negative. I'm not for one moment saying that the OP has mis presented the situation- but it is his interpretation of the situation. (The re has been a huge ammount of research done in the field of "giving important clinical info to laypeople" and the difficulties thereof.)
> 
> Secondly- from what he has said, they already completed less invasive investigations- including X-ray contrast film and the next stage would have been exploratory surgery anyway. From what the OP said, they were confident they had established the cause and proceeded appropriately.
> 
> ...


The difference is that if you ask for a urology referral, then that's what you expect to get, not only a specialist in the field, you expect to be sent where the most up to date diagnostic equipment is available too, especially when you or your insurance are expected to foot the bill for private specialist medicine.

Checking on two different veterinary specialists as regards to urology and incontinence there seems to be a lot more diagnostic procedures that could be done and different procedures for surgery including alternatives to open surgery.

Admitted things can go wrong along the way too, but there are diagnostics available that can reduce the chances to an absolute minimum, even with cutting edge dignostics interpretation is key. I recently have had thyroid scans,
and two MRIs on my pituitary and adrenals and the consultant actually nominated a specialist in the relevant areas to decipher them and do the report for him.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Sled dog hotel said:


> The difference is that if you ask for a urology referral, then that's what you expect to get, not only a specialist in the field, you expect to be sent where the most up to date diagnostic equipment is available too, especially when you or your insurance are expected to foot the bill for private specialist medicine.
> 
> Checking on two different veterinary specialists as regards to urology and incontinence there seems to be a lot more diagnostic procedures that could be done and different procedures for surgery including alternatives to open surgery.
> 
> ...


But he was referred to a urology specialist. Unless I misunderstood something.

My point is just that it's unfair to castigate the vets for this unfortunate situation ( except their possibly rather crass handling of it)

The scan showed ectopic ureters (unsure if it was uni or bi lateral) and the treatment was clearly open surgery to resect and re implant them. Unfortunately, when they could view directly, this wasn't the case.

It happens. More often than people realise. Doesn't mean anyone was negligent or complacent.

**** happens*. It's not always someone's fault.

* though perhaps they could brush up on their communication skills.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I didn't for one minute mean you had some way spun the news, Finboy! But it's good that you have the conversation on tape- it helps sometimes to replay when you are less stressed and can evaluate what is being said with a clear mind.
> 
> I am truly sorry this has happened to your beloved pet and I do hope you get the situation resolved.
> 
> ...


No worries Old Shep I can see both sides to this.....the end result is still the same and I worry about what happens next.

Our local vet has been brilliant....he was on the phone at 8.30am yesterday and intends to speak to the owner of this hospital as he has had "other issues" with this specialist and you could feel his frustration when I recounted the events to him.....he will get a report from them and has suggested exactly what you did, that he deals directly with them from now on and ensures I get the balanced view.....

Right now I don't want them to do anymore to Finn up at that hospital, the aftercare/information has been awful but ive no reason to doubt their surgical competency (I hope!!) and will be asking our vet what other options we have.....once he's better of course!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Morning!
> 
> Finn had a settled night in his bed with his cone on.....seemingly pleased to be home.
> 
> ...


You can get these:-

Readi Disposable Incontinence Bed Pads 60 x 90cm 1400ml Absorbency Pack of 25: Amazon.co.uk: Health & Personal Care

Just as example you should be able to get them from various sources, the top part will soak up the urine and distribute it, to keep him dryer and the plastic backing will not let the wet through keeping whats below it dry. They may help.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> But he was referred to a urology specialist. Unless I misunderstood something.
> 
> My point is just that it's unfair to castigate the vets for this unfortunate situation ( except their possibly rather crass handling of it)
> 
> ...


No he was referred to veterinary hospital and I assumed this specialist was a urologist.....he is a actually a general medicine vet who upon further Internet research specialises in skin conditions.....the vet who operated was a surgical specialist who it seems specialises in ortho cases, hip replacements and the like.

I did ask my vet for a urologist.....he maintains these are the closest we can get, ie soft tissue/surgical specialists as there aren't really any sole urology experts due to the low number of cases......if you know of any I'd love to hear?

The most chatty nurse, who helped the surgeon operate was the one who offered me the images on disc and said the anomaly was do clear I would see for myself why they were so confident......I'm happy to look despite having no idea how to read them, she says the dye contrast is so bright it's fascinating to see.....

Shame the disc didn't get offered at discharged after all.......hopefully it will come in the post as promised (along with my phone call) and I can eat humble pie for my gut feelings on all this.....never scared to admit I've got it wrong!


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Thanks SDH.....so far today he seems to be able to feel most of the urges while he's awake but not asleep....we are taking him out every time he stands up mind!

I'll definitely get something like that for night time as I suspect it was the wetness of his bed last night that caused him to move about different positions on the kitchen floor.....bless him! I should have shares in Vileda!!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> But he was referred to a urology specialist. Unless I misunderstood something.
> 
> My point is just that it's unfair to castigate the vets for this unfortunate situation ( except their possibly rather crass handling of it)
> 
> ...


From what I can gather neither though were specialists in urology or soft tissue, when asked how often/many/regularly these operations were performed at said hospital the person speaking to the OP couldn't say.



> - How is he?....fine, eating (he's half lab....course he's eating!) and being monitored for pain levels. How big is his wound? .....about 6 inches long.
> - Exactly what diagnostics did you do yesterday?.... Dye contrast X-Ray and CT scan, aswell as all relevant urine and blood tests.
> - How could we be told yesterday with such certainty yet face today's outcome?...."I think you were wrong to be told anything certain as the scan would not be conclusive but we were shocked to see he was normal as the whole team who assessed him very convinced there was a problem."
> *- What are you doing next?....."The two surgeons are meeting tomorrow to discuss and they will call you."
> ...


The scan cant have shown etopic ureters because he didn't have any, it could have only shown what they thought to be or interpreted as utopic ureters.

Vets can be wrong, ask Zaros, the vet did x rays of Oscars hips, nothing wrong with his hips or the hip replacement, poor Zaros was convinced at first he was going to have to set Oscar free as he couldn't see him struggling to get up and in constant pain. He then went back to a specialist in a hope 
and guess what, due to poor technique in the first place on positioning for the x rays and probably a lack of knowledge, Oscars existing hip replacement was knackered and causing all the pain and problems. The specialist re-did the hip replacement and now Oscar is well on the way to complete recovery and a much happier dog full of life again.
Hope you don't mind Zaros using you as an example.

Really the whys and wherefores should end here instead of taking the thread completely off topic, the only important thing is that the OP and the poor dog gets this problem resolved and as quick as possible, and if it does mean getting a second opinion or going elsewhere to do it, if they continue to fanny around and not even contact him when they said they would knowing they will be on leave then so be it, its certainly what I would do. In fact recently did after 3 years getting nowhere. Plus have done with the dogs too.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Thanks SDH.....so far today he seems to be able to feel most of the urges while he's awake but not asleep....we are taking him out every time he stands up mind!
> 
> I'll definitely get something like that for night time as I suspect it was the wetness of his bed last night that caused him to move about different positions on the kitchen floor.....bless him! I should have shares in Vileda!!


The problem is too, that any urine he lays in or gets on his coat and skin can cause urine burns and make it sore, not doing his skin any favours.
Glad that he seems more aware today or beginning to, that he needs to go.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> No he was referred to veterinary hospital and I assumed this specialist was a urologist.....he is a actually a general medicine vet who upon further Internet research specialises in skin conditions.....the vet who operated was a surgical specialist who it seems specialises in ortho cases, hip replacements and the like.
> 
> I did ask my vet for a urologist.....he maintains these are the closest we can get, ie soft tissue/surgical specialists as there aren't really any sole urology experts due to the low number of cases......if you know of any I'd love to hear?
> 
> ...


Where are you based? Two of the links I previously gave on urinary incontinence, diagnostics, and treatment were both referral veterinary specialists in the UK. Have you looked up to see if the place where you actually went has got a website and had a look on there what information they have on the subject as regards to causes, diagnostics and treatments?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Finnboy said:


> No worries Old Shep I can see both sides to this.....the end result is still the same and I worry about what happens next.
> 
> Our local vet has been brilliant....he was on the phone at 8.30am yesterday and intends to speak to the owner of this hospital as he has had "other issues" with this specialist and you could feel his frustration when I recounted the events to him.....he will get a report from them and has suggested exactly what you did, that he deals directly with them from now on and ensures I get the balanced view.....
> 
> *Right now I don't want them to do anymore to Finn up at that hospital, the aftercare/information has been awful* but ive no reason to doubt their surgical competency (I hope!!) and will be asking our vet what other options we have.....once he's better of course!


The bit in bold is so how we were left feeling after our experience at the orthopaedic vets I mentioned. We were pretty convinced but couldn't prove it that a junior intern rather than the specialist did her operation and messed up because the leg she ended up very lame on had to be opened twice as if the specialist had gone back to try and make good but we will never know. I would advise you to keep records/photos of everything you can and if you remain unhappy write to the practice manager requesting copies of all of your dogs notes and the disc you are waiting for. What drove me on was the attitude towards us more so than the result of the surgery, they left Indie in a terrible state with infected clipper rash and in pain but didn't return our emails or calls (they spoke to my own vet but not me) and made out it was self inflicted or me being over anxious. When I got copies of her notes and read the comments some of the nurses had made about her not walking well and being distressed/crying all night it made me so livid. As I said we got a full refund plus the costs of treating her skin but most importantly a written apology saying how badly they had let us/Indie down and they carried out audits of a couple of things and changed their procedures as a direct result. I subsequently found out several local vets do not refer there as they've had problems with them and got a couple of recommendations for the place we take her to now.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

We are up North in a fairly rural location...this hospital place has a good reputation when you speak to people and is used by most vets.....there's no mention of urology expertise on the website however. 

I agree it is probably not helping to keep arguing the rights and wrongs of the situation but I am extremely grateful for everyone's views and helpful suggestions....the incontinence pads and soft buster collar are being delivered tomorrow to make him more comfortable.

He's still peeing blood a bit and incontinent when snoozing but so far today he's been much better at going out to wee so that must be a good sign that his control is improving?

I just walked him around the block and bumped into a nurse from a local PDSA hospital who has lots of surgical experience in her centre, I was telling her the tale and she reassured me the blood in the urine and the incontinence is totally normal for bladder surgery so I feel a little calmer about that now (still worried about the chicken wire leap earlier but assuming any major damage from that would be showing by now.....silly pup!)


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy, I could be wrong - but I don't think there is a recognised subspecialty called "veterinary urology" consisting of relevant medical specialists in this area. Odd, really since we have pediatric urologists and general human urologists...but for pets it doesn't seem to exist. Or at least I have never come across it.

TBH, given the void of a veterinary urologist surgeon...I'm not sure where to start looking for the closest, next best thing. Internal medicine, I suppose?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> Finnboy, I could be wrong - but I don't think there is a recognised subspecialty called "veterinary urology" consisting of relevant medical specialists in this area. Odd, really since we have pediatric urologists and general human urologists...but for pets it doesn't seem to exist. Or at least I have never come across it.
> 
> TBH, given the void of a veterinary urologist surgeon...I'm not sure where to start looking for the closest, next best thing. Internal medicine, I suppose?


Yes that's what our local vet thinks too....I guess we just have to hope when he's fully recovered from this op we can keep trying.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I think our boy may be returning to normal a bit.....he's not got nearly as much blood in his urine and seems to be able to hold it until he gets outside about 50-60% of the time during the day.

He's still got no control at all when asleep and squats many many times to strain for nothing but that may just be the internal stitching giving him urges. There's far less blood in his urine today and the stream is more constant and less "squirty".

This has been a truly horrible experience so I'm glad he seems to be improving at last! I received the disc of images from the hospital today so fair play to them for that! If anyone wants me to upload a couple I will but apart from being fascinated I don't know what to look for (obviously!).

I dropped them in at my local vets this afternoon and caught him between clinics....we had a good long chat and he reassured me that this was unlikely to be anything to worry about from the clinical treatment point of view and more a shocking case of customer care. He has spoken briefly to the owner of the hospital who will want more details of our experience in due course but I'd like to give his specialist vets the chance to come back off holiday and see if they make contact before I steam in with complaints! I'll be much calmer once Finn is nearer full recovery too, although our vet warned it could take up to a month for any post-surgery incontinence to stop!

Our dog training classes were due to restart this weekend so I've postponed to the next course and after explaining to the trainer she suggested trying causticum/caustica (??) as one of her spinones was unresponsive to propalin etc but dried up totally on it! Any experiences or views on homeopathy moving forward? I know a couple of you had suggested alternative therapies but up to now I've been reluctant.

I did mentioned it to my vet who is not a fan but he said it would do no harm to try.....I'm waiting the month out after surgery though before trying anything else (unless the supervets resurface from their hols with a new plan of action of course! )


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Glad things a re settling a bit, Finboy.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> Our dog training classes were due to restart this weekend so I've postponed to the next course and after explaining to the trainer she suggested trying causticum/caustica (??) as one of her spinones was unresponsive to propalin etc but dried up totally on it! Any experiences or views on homeopathy moving forward? I know a couple of you had suggested alternative therapies but up to now I've been reluctant.
> 
> I did mentioned it to my vet who is not a fan but he said it would do no harm to try.....I'm waiting the month out after surgery though before trying anything else (unless the supervets resurface from their hols with a new plan of action of course! )


Homeopathy - a contentious subject ! 

I am a fan, have used homeopaths - both veterinary and for humans - with great results, have dabbled in it for a long time, also with success....but then, I grew up in a country where your GP or vet cheerfully and routinely would prescribe either allopathic or homeopathic medicine...and have a substantial library on complementary medicine.

Having said that, not being a veterinary homeopath ( and EVERY homeopathic vet in this country, by law, HAS to be a fully qualified veterinary surgeon first) .....I WOULDN'T "dabble" with your boy, given the severity and duration of his issue. And please be wary if someone is willing to. No, it hasn't got harmful side effects, but given your circumstances, I feel you'd be best served by a qualified veterinary homeopathic practitioner.

A list of homepathic veterinary surgeons can be found via:

Find a homeopath | British Homeopathic Association

Vet Index Online Directory - Complementary Medicine Referrals / Vet Homeopathy Referrals / Vet Acupuncture Referrals

The website of the BAHVS ( =The British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons ) is : 
British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons | Working to advance the understanding, knowledge and practice of veterinary homeopathy

But, IMO, tedious to navigate, never mind incorrect when it comes to find a homeopathic vet. I put in my postcode and none of the given homeopaths were indeed homeopaths. There is also no way to contact the organisation. The previous 2 links are much more useful ( albeit the vetindex one not very comprehensive).

If you are interested in exploring the subject a bit more on your own first, the book below is excellent, and the one I've used most often and with the best results. Would highly recommend. Has a whole chapter on urinary issues.

Homoeopathic Medicine for Dogs: Amazon.co.uk: H.G. Wolff, Stephen Plumb: Books


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Some great starting points thank you....not normally easily swayed by stuff that doesn't have a tried and validate scientific basis but I'm willing to read up on it.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I didn't want to comment on your question about homeopathy, but since hateott has, then I feel I must respond.

It's an expensive placebo (placebos work on pets too! Well, more accurately, their owners. Owners report improvements, but objective assures show none).

Homeopathy: there's nothing in it | The 10:23 Campaign | #ten23

I can provide you with reams of papers and links, Finnboy.

There is not one shred of credible evidence that it works- all meta analysis (the highest form of evidence) show it to perform no better than placebo.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I didn't want to comment on your question about homeopathy, but since hateott has, then I feel I must respond.
> 
> It's an expensive placebo (placebos work on pets too! Well, more accurately, their owners. Owners report improvements, but objective assures show none).
> 
> ...


But surely the ultimate placebo effect is where the symptoms disappear despite their being no real effect of the treatment? I'd take that any day of the week! Lol!

Seriously though I'm not an alternative therapy believer other than maybe in terms of human psychology.....deep down I know there HAS to be a reason why he does this.....I go back to the "coincidences".....

His first episode was the day of his second GA at seven months.....if it was castration-related then that particular day (six weeks later) is purely coincidental.

If it was due to reduced testosterone then why did the maximum dose testosterone therapy not help?

If it is behavioural/psychogenic.....what can we possibly do?

Our vet has tested a sample today and put him on antibiotics for a fortnight as he's not happy with the protein and blood levels in his urine making him more prone to infection.

Could there maybe have been only a slight anomaly in his "plumbing" and the probing may have unblocked or resolved it?.....oh so many questions and so few answers!


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Unfortunately, veterinary medicine, like human medicine, sometimes doesn't have an answer- especially when things appear to resolve for no particular reason.

Of course,just because medicine doesn't know the answer, doesn't mean we can fill in the blanks with magic.



Glad he seems a bit better. That's the most important thing.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Then my question would be.....when do I stop trying and accept that there is no answer?


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Finnboy said:


> Then my question would be.....when do I stop trying and accept that there is no answer?


When the vets give up. 

I think they'd be a few avenues to explore before then.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I really hope so


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> When the vets give up.
> 
> I think they'd be a few avenues to explore before then.


Problem is like GPs some vets are better then others, and are only as good as what they have remembered from their training, gained in experience and more importantly continue to research and keep up with medical advancements.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Assuming we will still receive some advice from the vets at the hospital once they return from leave.....

Wouldn't that essentially mean we have had three separate opinions? I like and trust my vet however many people round here think he is incompetent and he definitely seems to be a marmite vet.....I like his straight talking, no messing approach, he is also a large animal vet and I think some people would like him to be a bit more "fluffy" and less blunt in his manner....We always know exactly where we stand with him and we appreciate that.

He has been our vet for nine years now.....granted our last dog, a goldie didn't pose any real challenges and just got old and a bit doolally! We had a cat he referred up to this self same hospital to see an ophthalmic specialist but granted she wasn't difficult to diagnose as she'd managed to ram a thorn straight through her eyeball.....the treatment was professional and thorough....that was probably 3 years ago now and we no longer have the cat.

Finn is clearly an enigma and our vet makes no bones about being baffled as to why nothing he has tried has resolved the incontinence! 

We live in a rural village and many people are telling us to see another vet but he's never got anything "wrong" with our animals and I wouldn't know where to begin with someone else....anyway has Finn not got three vets aready considering his history given recent events??

I think there is a difference between a vet "getting it wrong" and just not knowing the answers.....we are definitely in the latter category.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sometimes you just have to try various things as a process of elimination, like the testosterone treatment for example. That would make sense as the problem seems to have occurred after he was neutered, and like some bitches who are spayed and the hormones removed, it can cause incontinence due to the lack of hormones, so some medications are hormonal based. There is also propalin that helps with urinary sphinchter incompetence that works in a different way, which I believe he has also tried? Crystals in the urine or bladder stones can also cause incontinence and makes them prone to infection.
so normally the more common causes are checked for and the more standard medications that will often work in a lot of cases will first be tried.

If that doesn't seem to work then you start to go into more detailed diagnostic procedures to look for other causes like problems with the plumbing itself.
At the end of the day though it depends on the knowledge skills and diagnostic equipment and procedures available. Even between the two UK veterinary referral specialists I did links too, one seemed to have a list of more diagnostic procedures then the other as well as treatments. One I hadn't heard of before.

Urethral bulking injection for urinary incontinence
When medical management of incontinence has failed bulking injections are an alternative to traditional surgeries. Injections of a bulking material are made into the urethra (outflow of the bladder). 

Granted sometimes even after all the diagnostics available you don't always find the cause of things, but until they are all carried out and something is either found or ruled out, and every possible avenue exhausted then you simply wont know or have a chance of getting it fixed. In short if you don't look, then you wont know.

On the subject of things like alternative theraphys like herbal, homeopathy, acupuncture (acupuncture incidently has been used for treatment of urinary incompetence and apparently successfully in some cases) again its something that if you don't try then you don't know. It like other things has its knockers, but there are also probably more people who say it has benefits and does work, so again if you don't try or explore other avenues how do you know?
The placebo effect only is mostly brought into the argument, but a dog or person will either leak or it wont using incontinence as an example. Also in some conditions human wise anyway, the power of suggestion and placebo effect may well be enough to convince a person they are feeling better in some instances, but surely that wont apply to all conditions where there is a physical symptom like incontinence that resolves. A dog doesn't know if something is being slipped in its food, or given to it that's different.

If you just close your mind to possibilitlies then you are not going to find answers, were as embracing the possibilities and giving them a try might just work ir give you an answer.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Thank you SDH for taking the time to type all of that.

The thing I take most from this thread is the potential avenues that have yet to be considered and ruled out. 

The urethral bulking process looks brutal and involves surgery again if I remember rightly?..... Although far less invasive.....as the surgery subject is so raw for us I'd need more convincing of its likely merit however once he's fully recovered from this it may be worth considering along with the other stuff we have yet to try.

Finn is still on propalin, maximum dose three times a day and before his referral we stopped it to get an idea of baseline, no medication incontinence.....he was only off it fri to Wednesday and he was significantly worse mainly pooling urine again when relaxed rather than dripping as he walked (although he did that too) so we asked on discharge and the vet agreed he should go straight back on it when he came home. He's been on that about five months now.

I am far calmer than I was this time last week....mainly because he is showing great improvement, especially in the last couple of days. We've a way to go yet before he is back to the same state he was at referral but I'm more hopeful now.

It really helped having the responses on here to rationalise in my head and I thank you and the others who have commented for that! I'll keep plugging away and if I ever get this resolved I'll let you all know!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Hoping you do get some answers or failing that something that does work and manages the problem. Let us know how you are all doing.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I didn't want to comment on your question about homeopathy, but since hateott has, then I feel I must respond.
> 
> It's an expensive placebo (placebos work on pets too! Well, more accurately, their owners. Owners report improvements, but objective assures show none).
> 
> ...


Out of interest OS....do you believe that anaesthesia and anaesthesiologists are quackery and crackpots, too?

Because nobody, NOBODY, can as yet fully explain HOW EXACTLY this works either. We know THAT it works, we know which agents and the dosage of those agents, we know that administration intercepts our consciousness and spares us from surgical pain.

But if you went around the globe and asked every researcher, surgeon, and anaethetist to explain the exact mechanism.....you'd get a bunch of hypotheses. That's the best we got. I know. I couldn't believe it either.

Should we, in the interest of preserving fully understood scientific rigor, return to the good ol' days before 1846 when surgery was an agonizing, fully awake event? Or should we gratefully accept the fact THAT it works, slumbering peacefully whilst someone cuts us open, even if nobody can quite explain the precise mechanism of HOW?

What I am asking - at what point does an immense benefit outweigh comprehending exactly how and why? Ever? Never?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Just an update having been to see our vet....

On a good note......last night was our first dry night since the surgery! Yay!...I had to collect a urine sample this morning and it was quite yukky but then I spotted a couple of internal stitches in his wee so that will explain that!

It's the first time our vet has seen Finn and he wasn't happy with the wound....the reaction of "bloody hell!" when he saw it made me feel a little less like I've been emotionally overreacting.

He wasn't happy to take the stitches out yet so we are leaving it until Friday and applying Intrasite until then.....also letting the antibiotics keep doing their stuff.


I had a list of things to ask.....

No he's never had his thyroid levels checked.....initially the vet discounted hypothyroidism as he isn't losing hair or showing other symptoms but then we remembered his patches of hair loss that we have put down to his allergies.....despite no other clinical signs he did say he would check his thyroid function but he'd prefer to wait until he was a few weeks further in his post operative recovery which is fine by me.

I asked about nerve damage during the castration op and any spinal issues.....again the absence of anything else indicative of this makes him think it unlikely but he didn't think a chiropracter consideration would do any harm either so I may bank that one for later.

The other thing I suggested was choline supplementation which he'd never heard of.....granted it's used in older, more senile dogs but if there's any benefit to the urinary system then it's something he thinks there's no harm in thinking about further....more research to be done on that one!

Urethral bulking he'd never heard of and reacted much like I did......sounds a bit brutal and requires GA and regular treatments......maybe not given the state of him right now!!

Obviously I won't try all of the above at once, our vet is still optimistic about the possibility that he is dry once he's fully recovers and all his stitches are gone.....I am happy to leave him to heal fully for another few weeks then we can try some of the more obscure things one at a time in a controlled way.....I feel a little more hopeful at least.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Hello

Today has been an eventful day in the saga of Finn and his dribble....

To update....stitches and buster collar finally removed Friday night = one happy Finn and two happy owners! He apparently has total bladder control again and I will whisper this next bit so not to jinx it.....this is day two of no dribbles/pools!!!

Just as normality starts to return the diagnosing vet finally calls today on his return from leave....my vet and his boss have had several discussions while he was away but I have not spoken to anyone from the hospital yet.

Cut a long story short....unreserved apologies for the inexcusable lack of communication and confusion with him and the other vet before went on leave....accepted...."now what do you plan to do with my dog?"

"I am sure he has a faulty bladder/urethra sphincter because the iodine dye in diagnosis was overspilling into the urethra which is clear on the scans so now we know it wasn't an EU we will operate again and put an inflatable cuff around that sphincter with a valve/tap on his abdomen so whenever he leaks you can just tighten it!!"

Please correct my thinking here......if he could see this fault on the scans how did he think surgery to re-implant the EU was going to make him dry? Why is this the first I am hearing of this finding and who on earth would do that to their dog??? Have any of you ever heard of it?

Every bit of instinct is telling me to walk away from this man but he has asked if my OH and I would consider going in to sit round the table with him and the operating vet to discuss all of the images and findings and learn more about their current proposal.......

So..... credit to him for ringing at all (even if his boss kicked his a** to), credit to him for apologising for the shocking communication, credit to him for offering a consultation without the dog to discuss it all (no charge...I asked!lol!)......

So why do I feel like he's desperately throwing another long shot at me just because I'm so pee'd off with it all.....no pun intended! lol!

We will go and have that discussion, with the support of our vet who has spoken to the specialist as well this afternoon...we will also be asking what the alternatives are if we don't try this....

I'd love to hear your views please......


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Long, verbose answer or short answer?

Gonna opt for the short one.

I'd tell the good man if he & his totally unhinged crackpot idea ever came in a 5 mile radius of my dog again, I'd rip his ***s off with my bare hands.

Verbatim.

I would STRONGLY urge you to explore other options. Your own vet is clearly at his wits end. He's exhausted all the traditional approaches - antibiotics, hormone supplementation - and none of those worked. So you could either tell him that you would welcome a fresh pair of eyes from another practice or you try a chiropractor or acupuncturist and see whether this help?


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Yep! That's how I feel....I don't even want the two hour round trip to look at him right now....I was calm on the phone up until the point he started detailing the latest invasive curative surgery for the definite problem he can see on the scans (again!!) with Finn at my feet I couldn't take the discussion so soon after this surgery so I politely told him I was unable to accept any course of surgical action as being the only option left.....at this point he asked us to go up to talk so I calmly said I'd ring him back tomorrow after my OH and I had discussed it!

My vet and my OH think we should go and meet up and listen to them and ask all of our unanswered questions then come home and think long and hard about what they say.... I'm doing nothing for a few more weeks to see how he is anyway.

Even without veterinary expertise I can't see how a "tap/valve" in his abdomen would help....he's never been totally incontinent...that would be a whole different scenario! Surely it would be at constant risk of infection and tearing and Finn would chew it out on a daily basis.....or am I missing something??


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I think he's talking about this.....I feel quite sick


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Here's another link....no results though....


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

But...but....but..

Hasn't the problem gone away? At least for the time being?



I'd really hang fire with any further surgical interventions if the issue is at least now manageable. Sledgehammers and nuts come to mind.

And just a quick response to HATEOTT

It's not that we don't know HOW homeopathy works.

It's that it DOESNT work.

Period.


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## mollypip (Aug 17, 2011)

Oh my goodness I would be quite terrified to have that proceedure done  . I would need to read more about it but based on a quick read of the links I would be very wary of that. Great hes improved so much, take lots of time to think and research before any decisions.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Yes it has gone away for the last 48hrs....how fantastic would it be if it stayed away however such is the mature of the intermittent dribble that he can have dry days, then mildly drippy days then dry mornings and drippy afternoons and dry evenings, then runs of totally drippy days with pools when lying....no pattern, no obvious triggers.....

I honestly don't plan to do a thing to him for a few weeks anyway, not even complimentary therapy or prescription medication until we see how his after total recovery.

I really don't like the idea of that implant! :yikes:


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm right with you Mollypip!


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> Yep! That's how I feel....I don't even want the two hour round trip to look at him right now....I was calm on the phone up until the point he started detailing the latest invasive curative surgery for the definite problem he can see on the scans (again!!) with Finn at my feet I couldn't take the discussion so soon after this surgery so I politely told him I was unable to accept any course of surgical action as being the only option left.....at this point he asked us to go up to talk so I calmly said I'd ring him back tomorrow after my OH and I had discussed it!
> 
> My vet and my OH think we should go and meet up and listen to them and ask all of our unanswered questions then come home and think long and hard about what they say.... I'm doing nothing for a few more weeks to see how he is anyway.
> 
> Even without veterinary expertise I can't see how a "tap/valve" in his abdomen would help....he's never been totally incontinent...that would be a whole different scenario! Surely it would be at constant risk of infection and tearing and Finn would chew it out on a daily basis.....or am I missing something??


Finnboy, here are the facts:

If this is the same guy who confidently told you that your dog's ongoing incontinence issue were due to an ectopic urether, something which he had diagnosed from the CT scan and which then subsequently resulted in a completely unneccesary, invasive, likely jolly darn unpleasant to deal with sugery on a young dog who had no voice or input in what whas happening again, my conclusion is as follows:

The guy is a reckless, incompetent fool. Who now tries to augment his foolishnesh further with even whackier surgery.

1) As SLH most aptly pointed out, he CANNOT have seen an ectopic urether as the dog didn't have one once they sliced him open

2) if he knew even the basic 101 of taking a relevant medical history he would have known that an Ectopic urether was virtually impossible or the dog would have NEVER been continent in his entire life.

3) the fact that the dog became incontinent soon AFTER neutering suggests a STRONG hormonal link. The dog just enters puberty and WHAM - - the natural hormonal balance gets thrown out of kilter with the neutering. No, the overwhelming majority of young males ...or any males...do not encounter incontinence issue afterwards, you were very unlucky. But it isn't exactly unheard of either. Even your vet suspected as much or he wouldn't have valiantly tried different hormone therapies.

Did ANY of this register with this veterinary Frankenstein?

Look, its your dog and I totally understand that you want and get a grip on this peeing.Personally, I would rather chew my arm off than bring my dog back to those folks. Wouldn't even care about their credentials. There is many of an astounding fool with amazing credentials.

Ask for a fresh pair of non-surgical eyes.


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> But...but....but..
> 
> Hasn't the problem gone away? At least for the time being?
> 
> ...


I entirely respect your freedom to believe or disbelieve whatever you decide and conclude from information you perused and reviewed.

Which is why I am totally cool with a statement saying "I THINK homeopathy is total quackery and I BELIEVE it doesn't work". You could also say that you think the colour lilac is awful and you think meat eaters are vile. Your personal opinion. People fought hard and died for the right that we can freely state what we think. So we might as well exercise this immense gift they bestowed upon us.

Your freedom ends where it starts infringing upon others. "It's that it doesn't work" is a statement you aren't fit to make. You neither have the knowledge nor the relevant experience to make it. By your own admission. Bit like me saying "giving birth is painless when using the right breathing technique" without birthing any children.

If homeopathy isnt for you, it ain't for you. No worries.

Arguably, in Finnboy's instance, it would have been a hot damn MORE useful than cutting her dog open for no good reason. Give me a sugar pill instead of unneeded surgery any day.

Any day.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Not going to say things too loud, but as it seems so far so good I would leave well alone at the mo and see how it goes if it were me.

I just thought of something although wasn't 100% so Ive double checked but this seems to confirm it.



> ANTATOMIC CAUSES FOR URINARY INCONTINENCE
> *Ectopic ureters (EUs)* are the most common cause of urinary incontinence in young dogs. An ectopic ureter is defined as a ureteral opening in any area other than the normal position in the trigone of the bladder. UI is the most common clinical sign in dogs with EUs and is usually diagnosed in dogs prior to one year of age; however EUs should be considered in any dog with UI, particularly when the history is unknown. Breeds reported to be at risk include the Golden Retriever, Labrador Retriever, Siberian Husky, Newfoundland and English Bulldog. Although unilateral EUs have been reported to be more common, bilateral EUs were significantly more common in a recent study, which suggests that careful imaging of the urinary tract should be performed prior to surgery in order to obtain the best clinical outcome.* EUs are uncommon in male dogs and these animals are often asymptomatic.*
> 
> A diagnosis of EUs can be made by excretory urography, fluoroscopic urethrography or urerterography, abdominal ultrasound, cystoscopy, helical computed tomography (CT) or a combination of these diagnostic procedures. The latter two appear to be the diagnostics of choice based on two recent studies. Cystoscopy is a minimally invasive tool that allows easy access to the lower urinary tract and visualization of the abnormality. If necessary, contrast can be injected through the scope to provide further imaging studies. Urine cultures should always be performed in dogs with suspected EUs because urinary tract infections appear to be quite common with this disorder.


Reffering to the bit in Bold on etopic ureters it seems they are not common in males its a female thing more and apparently even males with it are often asymptomatic which means as far as I am aware no symptoms. Its from UC Davies school of veterinary medicine on the subject, so one would assume its safe as far as accuracy.

UC Davis School of Vet Med:

If it is uncommon in males then you would think they would have carried out more tests to be sure.

Ive had a look at the links for the procedure they are now talking about, and it 
looks pretty specialist and intrusive, its something I would need hell of a lot of convincing to even think about it. I don't think this lot would convince me of anything to be honest much less let them go near a dog of mine again (just my personal opinion though)

If it were me again personal opinion only, should it still be a problem and you wanted to pursue the cause and possible treatment in the future I would be getting another referral and second opinion and choosing a specialist with proven experience and successes in male urinary incompetance and treatment.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Good morning....

I'm so glad none of you feel I should just have faith in this "specialist" and roll with more surgery! We have no intention of doing this...his original problem was never so bad that we'd experiment with such things over our decision to keep him and invest in vileda shares for his bad days.

I have to say two things in support of your last post SDH....this vet confidently told us the same thing about intermittent incontinence due to EU in males not showing symptomatically until dogs are several months old and the first link I added about the hydraulic cuff describes a female whose scans suggested EU but during surgery they were found to be in the normal position-so I do accept all of this was a possibility albeit not common.

I guess my only decision now is whether to bother with accepting the olive branch and take time out to hear his explanation of thinking around all this or just politely walk away now.....as a fellow professional and clearly someone who needs to know the far end of a fart I may go and drink their posh coffee machine coffee and see what I think of his rationale.

Interestingly my own straight talking no fluffiness vet changed his opinion slightly yesterday after speaking on a 1:1 with him....he went from wanting to rip his own ureters out to thinking he sounded like he could really knew what he was doing but he's crap at talking to people! (For the record he said if it was his dog he would NOT be risking that procedure at this stage but it was our choice!)


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## mollypip (Aug 17, 2011)

If you do go and hear him out beware he doesn't brainwash you!!! Id be interested in how many of these procedures he has actually carried out too and I would guess its not many, if any. The procedure appears to be quite new.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

The only thing I would say if you do want to go along, see what the explanations are etc. take notes and then do your own research, it should be easy enough to do and compare what you have been told.
After all if you go along you have absolutely no obligations whatsoever.


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

Hopeattheendofthetunnel said:


> I entirely respect your freedom to believe or disbelieve whatever you decide and conclude from information you perused and reviewed.
> 
> Which is why I am totally cool with a statement saying "I THINK homeopathy is total quackery and I BELIEVE it doesn't work". You could also say that you think the colour lilac is awful and you think meat eaters are vile. Your personal opinion. People fought hard and died for the right that we can freely state what we think. So we might as well exercise this immense gift they bestowed upon us.
> 
> ...


I don't want to hijack this thread, but I cannot let that go unchallenged.

I DONT _believe_ homeopathy doesn't work.

I KNOW it doesn't.

I know because there is no evidence to show it does.

I'd be more than happy to continue this debate in anew thread. I don't want to take up Finnboys thread.

:thumbup:


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Old Shep said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread, but I cannot let that go unchallenged.
> 
> I DONT _believe_ homeopathy doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Oh I don't mind.....but if you decide homeopathy does work chuck me the name of whatever stops urinary dribbles please.....

Day 3 of the thing we are not saying........

I think forces are conspiring against us meeting anyway.......tried a diary check with both vets....given the distance away and the fact we both work full time.....there is nothing this side of December so I have asked the specialist vet to ring me again for another chat.....if all he has to discuss is that surgery I will amicably discuss it over the phone and suggest that IF we decide to do anything else with Finn we will bear it in mind. I'm sure he's just trying to put right the situation but I don't trust him enough to do anything at all invasive let alone anything radical so I think we'll politely move on and avoid wasting their time and ours any more.

I intend to seek other opinions further down the line if we decide to pursue the problem again anyway as per the great advice here.

Thanks everyone for all your help....I'll hand this thread over to the homeopathy debate.....Round 1 "ding ding"


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## Hopeattheendofthetunnel (Jun 26, 2013)

Finnboy said:


> Thanks everyone for all your help....I'll hand this thread over to the homeopathy debate.....Round 1 "ding ding"


Sigh. As luck would have it I mislaid my boxing gloves.....

Nah, I like OS. Even though I'll never understand her vehement opposition to complementary medicine - it's all good. The world would be a less interesting place if we all thought the same, no?

Finnboy - to conclude, I wish your boy and yourself all the very best. With any luck - if the culprit is/was a hormonal imbalance - he might just grow out of it as he matures and his body adjusts to his new hormonal state. Nothing to say that it won't. Personally, I'd be leary to potentially impede this occurance by adding hormones. JMO, of course.

Fingers crossed, be well.


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## Finnboy (Aug 1, 2013)

Thank you!....all your help and advice has been really appreciated!


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