# stud cat gone off queen



## ali2 (Oct 9, 2015)

Hello,

We are new to breeding and have our own queen and stud. Our stud is available to registered girls and he had a queen visit 2 weeks ago. We supervised at least 4 matings over 3 days. However she called again and we have had her back on tuesday, they have been supervised and mated several times plus as they where getting on we left them together and assume more matings ensued away from prying eyes.
Today she is calling very loudly and I have put my boy in with her but he isn't the least bit interested today.
Is this normal? 
Or does he know/sense that his job is done and she is just carrying on her call til the end.
He is already proven to our girl.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Since they have mated several times over 3 days more mating today shouldn't make any difference to if she gets pregnant or not. AFAIK some queens will simply not get pregnant to some studs however much they made. Being nosy, what breed is this?


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## ali2 (Oct 9, 2015)

Oriental


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Some boys will take every opportunity to mate a girl when she is offered to them and some oriental girls will just call and call. Some boys seem to know when the girl is fertile and only mate her at that time. I found both methods worked equally well so if the girl does not become pregnant, it might be she has a problem that needs investigation. If she called again in less than two weeks, any fertilised eggs would not have had a chance to implant. She may not be ovulating.


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## ali2 (Oct 9, 2015)

Thanks for that.
My own girl became pregnant on tgeir maiden voyage together over 4 days of mating.

If this girl does not become pregnant should I offer a refund or not? We had her from sat to wed last time and tues to sat this time.
I know a stud fee should result in kittens but if she has a problem that isn't my failt is it and my boy is proven.
Sorry to ask so many questions but we all start somewhere. 
I thought all the reading up and chatting to a couple of breeders I was prepared for anything.....obviously not.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

ali2 said:


> Oriental


What excellent taste you have.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I took a girl to stud twice and she didn't get pregnant, didn't get a refund. You have looked after her and fed her for several days, you know for sure she has mated enough to get pregnant, in other words you have put the time & effort in.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

ali2 said:


> Thanks for that.
> If this girl does not become pregnant should I offer a refund or not? We had her from sat to wed last time and tues to sat this time.
> I know a stud fee should result in kittens but if she has a problem that isn't my failt is it and my boy is proven.


I think you have several options including offering a refund although I would not think this is usual. I assume you have an agreement which states you will offer a return mating if the queen does not conceive so your obligation ends there. That is the usual written arrangement but some breeders will offer a third attempt and some will even offer to take another girl if the original one seems to have a problem. You need to discuss options with the queen's owner. (Problems like this often result in boys not being at public stud which usually means they are only available to people the stud owner knows well.)


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

General rule is that you are paying for the service, not results. That said, most stud owners would offer a return visit at no cost.

I am surprised at only 4 matings over 3 days. I do controlled matings and I'd expect to get in 8 or 9 over the first two days (day and a half even).


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

If I was told that my girl had only mated 4 times over 3 days, I'd be very, very cross, particularly if all matings were supervised. Once the cats start mating, they normally go at it very well, and as Havoc says, I'd be expecting a good 8 or 9 within a 2 day period. The only time my girls number of matings have ever been restricted to the levels you're mentioning is when myself and the stud owner discussed it and agreed this was the best course of action, and that was with a very, very specific set of circumstances that I don't expect will ever be repeated again.

Have you been supervising them or letting them run together unsupervised? He's probably gone off her because, after 4 days, she's not in full call any more. In any case, you really shouldn't be mating any longer than that if the poor owner has any hope at all of accurately predicting the due date. For this reason, 48 hours of mating is normally the standard practice, and I do request this everywhere I go. It has no knock on effects to the number of kittens in a litter.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I sort of hope this thread makes people realise that running a stud is not just a matter of buying a boy and putting a queen in with him once in a while. I've long maintained it isn't a game for the inexperienced. A stud owner shouldn't even think of taking money from people until they can 'read' their boy's signals and are prepared to spend time with any visiting queen gaining her confidence before even contemplating a first mating. If an owner is handing over hard earned cash then they expect their precious girl to be looked after at least as well as she is at home.


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## ali2 (Oct 9, 2015)

Havoc, we all start somewhere and I expect you where a novice once to.

The girl was treated as my own would be indoors with lots of love and affection, and had the run of the house when not in with the stud. I am only inexperienced with cats and have bred and shown dogs for years. I did not throw her in with him so to speak and supervised their initial meetings in case of discontent as she was only the second queen he has been with...the first being the girl he has grown up with.. This time round they have behaved as I would expect them to. Lots of matings and cuddling together for the duration she was with us. He is after all only proven once and still has a lot to learn, he has 2 lovely outdoor stud houses and he also gets the run of the house with his pants on for a couple of hours a day so he gets the human interaction that has made him the sweet natured boy we have.

Thanks for all the advice from those that where willing to offer. I am feeling more confident now he will be successful.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ali, it's really not good to allow a visiting cat to have the run of your houwe. Did you test her for Herpes, Calici, Giardia, TF, etc etc etc before she came in? The problem with allowing untested cats to run in your home is that you risk infecting your own cats with the same, unless your house is set up so that it can be fully washed down in between mating visits. If he has 2 stud houses, far better to confine the girl to one of those, then supervise matings with him and put her back. This way, there is very little chance of passing anything to your stud, minimised even less by the fact that they don't share litter trays etc. This is really, really important particularly if your boy is at open stud, because if he gets something, not only will he pass it to your own cats, but he will also pass it to every other visiting female, who will then take it back to their cattery. Their girls will most likely visit another stud at another time, and so it perpetuates really, really quickly.

Havoc is not saying that you're a bad breeder. What Havoc is saying is that really, it's a good idea to be totally comfy with your boy before putting him out to anyone else's girl. I.e, have lots of matings with your own girls first, learn how he mates, and then offer him to others. For example, when I call about a stud, I want to know if he's the type of boy who is a wham, bam, thank you maa, then out of there, or whether he wants to kiss and cuddle the girl before and afterwards. I want to know whether he does lots of matings over a short time, or whether he has a few strong ones, then doesn't care after that. Does he paddle a lot and pull out coat, or does he not faff about. Does he scruff, or does he prefer the owner to hold for him. These are all factors which will determine whether a particular girl is suitable for that stud. I wouldn't, for example, send my really stroppy, difficult to mate girl to a new boy, or one who'd rather have a quiet, easy, willing mate. Instead, I'll send her to a strong worker who will mate anything and doesn't care whether they're thrilled at the prospect or not!

You also really need to have your cat husbandry down and sorted before you accept the cats of others. It would be worth rethinking your stud arrangements, for disease control if for no other reason at all.

yes, we all do have to start somewhere, but that somewhere is firstly by observing our own cats with an experienced stud and stud owner, asking lots of questions, then, once we have enough girls to satisfy one boy (more than 1, ideally 3), having a boy from someone who is prepared to mentor us all the way. I've had friends who have come down to supervise matings of my own cats in my own household so that they can give me advice and ideas about how to make the whole experience better, slicker etc. Only when you have this completely sorted should you consider taking other peoples' cats in.

Hope this helps explain the point somewhat.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Nothing I said was meant to be a personal dig at anyone. Yes, I was a novice once but as a novice I wouldn't have contemplated running a stud. Yes, I'm old and old fashioned. I do believe novice breeders should gain loads of experience with their own queens, visiting studs, seeing other setups, learning what experienced stud owners say to them about each visit, each queen's behaviour before even thinking of getting a boy. How knowledgeable can a novice breeder be about lines? How can they possibly look at a pedigree and advise whether an owner should bring their girl in or take it elsewhere? It isn't just a case of avoiding inbreeding - we can all throw the details into BA and get the % out but a stud owner should have a well learned knowledge of what works well and what might not.


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## ali2 (Oct 9, 2015)

I take it all on board.

I am not in this to make a quick buck as people might think, yes I was anxious to see he could be proven with a female he had not been brought up with.

I do get a bit touchy and I apologise if I have offended anybody. 

I agree after reading further that having her running the house where my own cats go is a risk and an felv/fiv test is only the tip of the iceberg where disease is concerned. I will in future make sure that any visiting queens are segregated completely, I do use trigene disinfectant in the areas my animals are and am meticulous about cleaning areas my animals are....not just because of disease but because I hate animal smell....even though I love my cats and dogs.

I do appreciate all advice given and we all carry on learning.
I don't have a mentor in the immediate vicinity but have been speaking to a well known breeder and exhibitor who is proving to be great.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Trigene is great, but you can't disinfect soft surfaces thoroughly enough to make them disease free. This is why many health conscious breeders will recommend that you keep visiting queens in an area which is fully wipeable. Then you can bleach or disinfect or steam everywhere she's set foot and the risk fo disease is much, much lower.

Nobody was suggesting or even implying that you were in this to make a quick buck. The majority of us are concerned that you actually do things the right way hence the advice you're being given. Havoc, as she says, is old-fashioned, but I wish more people adopted those attitudes as there'd be far fewer dodgy breeders around if they did, and much less sickness in cats.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Infection control is high on the list of any good stud owner. There's a reason seasoned stud owners have 'that look' - the delightfully fashionable look of clothes which don't require ironing and footwear which can be scrubbed with bleach. Crocs are without doubt the ugliest of footwear but they were surely designed with us in mind


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## pipje (Jun 29, 2011)

I would listen to the experienced breeders like havoc, Carly etc here. 

Personally, I feel that as your boy has hardly any experience, you should refund or offer more matings. It just isn't really good practice not to do so- yes, a stud service is that (a service) but a young stud doesn't always get things correctly so will require a lot of practice. All the breeders that I know will generally allow multiple matings in the event a female doesn't take. Sometimes, it just isn't a good match so stud owners either offer another boy or will allow the queen's owner to bring another girl.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

In this case I agree that a partial refund could be in order if this second visit doesn't result in a pregnancy. It could just be the way the OP has phrased things but there are points which do imply their inexperience *may* contribute to any lack of success. Something isn't right. For a cat to be back in call only two weeks after a first visit where matings were witnessed is most unusual. Mating would normally knock a cat off call for longer.

I've also been drawn to the phrase "Today she is calling very loudly .....................". I couldn't tell you how many owners have apologised to me for their very loud calling cat when they bring it to me and I can't remember one which continued to be vocal once it was installed in the queen's quarters. There's no need - cats 'call' to inform the neighbourhood lotharios they're ready and waiting. Once they have one there they stop the noise. They may shout again for a day or two when they're taken home but never when here in close proximity to an entire male.

And ".............................and I have put my boy in with her" Again this may be just the phrasing but a queen should be put in with the stud, not the other way round. He needs the security of being in his space, his kingdom. He needs to be completely familiar with his surroundings.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Certainly most girls will not bother to call once they know the boy is available but I have never known an oriental girl to keep quiet when she has been mated. Presumably the girl obliged with all the usual performance after mating? If not I would suspect the boy was not successful.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

It sounds like the girl has been brought indoors when not mating though Havoc, or has been separated to a different room where she likely can't see the boy, so under those circumstances, with mine at least, calling would continue.

Some of mine do continue to shout even when they're in with a boy, although not once the matings start, I must say! However, one of mine churped and chirruped all the way through incessantly. Ok, she was with an inexperienced boy, but he did manage to make her roll, slap and go silent for about 30 mins afterwards, but once she thought it was time for more, she'd follow him all over, shouting at him until he took notice. I don't know though, given that I'm not experienced at owning my own working boy yet, whether she was just doing it to help him along or not. She did do this when put out with an experienced boy, but as I say, once matings started, there was no need.

I wonder if this is a combination of being brought to where she can't see or smell the stud, together with the fact that he's inexperienced and isn't giving her the right signals or attention when she's primed, so she shouts at him to give him the hint? I've found that with boys who are solid workers, the girls seem to pick up on this, and if they dally about, there's more shouting that goes on.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I too am wondering if the boy is going through the motions but a full mating isn't happening. If these matings were witnessed then there shouldn't be much question. I've never ever heard a sound as guttural as emits from a queen being mated, there's no mistaking it for anything else and the 'post coital' behaviour is pretty definite. If we were talking about quieter breeds here I wouldn't feel qualified to comment but I've been involved in oriental and foreign breeds all my life, taken in many queens and must have supervised thousands of matings.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

_However, one of mine churped and chirruped all the way through incessantly_
Chirruping is one of the signs a queen is ready and willing. Most visiting queens start out by hiding in the sleeping quarters, move on to hissing at the boy through the mesh and when we reach the stage of chirruping then we're good to go. That's a textbook visit of course and many queens don't read the textbook


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, that's how most of mine have gone, although my last visit certainly wasn't! We had hissing, hissing and some more hissing! With plenty of sweet talk to the stud owner, but only potty mouth to the boy! For a quiet breed, she certainly wasn't, but we were both prepared for that, and thankfully he was a no nonsense sort of lad, so just cracked on.


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