# Dew claw cut off without sedation, Am I right to be upset about this?



## natethegrate (Jan 14, 2016)

So my dog broke her dew claw in the garden whilst going nuts about a cat, she was limping so we took her to the vets.
They took her into the surgery room and I heard her scream like never before it was so bad I started to cry a little (even writing this makes me upset I hate seeing them in pain).
everyone in the waiting room went silent and then laughed awkwardly.
I personally want to switch vets as I would have put her under anesthetic the price wouldn't have mattered but they never asked.

She was shaken up after her tail was between her legs, she just looked like she wanted to get away from the vet.
I consider it inhumane to chop off something like that without at least having painkillers.
My friends all say I'm being too sensitive and that she didn't feel it after it was done but I know from the way she acted that she did. 

What do you think?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

I'd expect an anaesthetic or sedative/local to be used. The idea of a dog being held down and a part cut off is horrendous. Obviously, the dog is now going to associate vets with pain and fear. I'd complain to the practice manager and the vet, by letter. Then find a new vet.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

What part was cut off? The nail? 
When you say "put her under" do you mean general anesthesia? There are definite risks to GA, and to me, the risk of GA is not worth the one second it takes to chop off an injured dew claw. 
As for local, I don't know how you would get a local in to a nail? Unless you numb the whole toe and that's going to mean a lot of sticks with a needle. 

Basically you're weighing one quick ouchy cut vs. several sticks with a needle (that also hurts). It makes sense to me to just deal with the one quick ouch.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Local anaesthetic stings like a... stingy thing!


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Local anaesthetic stings like a... stingy thing!


And wouldn't you need a ton of it to numb a dew claw?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

You'd give the standard dose, but I've yet to meet an animal who doesn't hate having local injected so it would be awkward to restrain them and inject it precisely. Of course it's do-able but I'm not sure it would be any less uncomfortable than having a loose dewclaw clipped off.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Would you expect them to take a dog into a special room just to clip off a loose, broken nail?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

If the dog was limping, I'm guessing the nail was hurting anyway so she likely would scream when they cut it.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Elles said:


> Would you expect them to take a dog into a special room just to clip off a loose, broken nail?


Some vets take some patients out of the consulting room for minor procedures. Possible reasons include better lighting, more equipment to hand and easier access to nurses (who are often multitasking in the clinic). Some patients are noticeably better without the owner there; others are worse and for some there is no difference but it's not an uncommon practice I would say to remove the patient from the consulting room for such a thing.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

The op saying they took her into the surgery room and that they wanted a GA made me think they cut the whole thing off without anaesthetic, not just clipped the claw and I was horrified. Overactive imagination hopefully.

I hope it was just trimming a broken claw, which would sting a bit. I wouldn't expect anaesthetic for that though and I hope she's feeling better soon.

ETA I've always held my dog on the table for the vet, so it seemed odd to me.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Most broken dewclaws involve the cuticle (keratinous 'shell') cracking and breaking along one side. The underlying quick is exposed and usually bleeds an alarming amount, but that's normal.

Sometimes the cuticle is swinging in the breeze and attached by a tiny strip of remaining nail, in which case it can be quickly twisted off by hand like tearing off a plaster.

If the cuticle is still attached along one side, then nail clippers or scissors can be used to cut the loose piece away so it doesn't keep getting caught on things and causing further pain.

Some vets will anaesthetise or sedate every patient to trim the loose nail away. Other vets only anaesthetise/sedate those where the cuticle is well anchored and would require full removal - but in such cases it may be appropriate to leave it be and let it heal anyway.

This is NOT the same as 'dewclaw removal' such as that done in pups etc, where skin and bone are removed as well. That would be a surgical procedure requiring full anaesthesia.

I think if vets all started anaesthetising or sedating every patient with a torn claw, their operating books would be packed with nail removals and they would be inevitably accused of further money-grubbing.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

And all dogs are different - I've seen plenty of dogs not react at all when the loose claw is clipped off, whereas others start screaming like a banshee as soon as their paw is touched.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

We've done it ourselves at home on more than one occasion. When Breez (great dane) ripped one of her dew claws (through the quick), I held her while OH took the wire cutters to the nail. Took it off right behind the tear which of course was through the quick. Yes it hurts, no Breez was not traumatized nor has she held it against us... Dogs are pretty darned resilient.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ouesi said:


> We've done it ourselves at home on more than one occasion. When Breez (great dane) ripped one of her dew claws, I held her while OH took the wire cutters to the nail. Took it off right behind the tear which of course was through the quick. Yes it hurts, no Breez was not traumatized nor has she held it against us... Dogs are pretty darned resilient.


I hope you cleaned those wire cutters first!


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> I hope you cleaned those wire cutters first!


Nah! used the rusty ones  
They're actually our nail wire cutters - they work better on the big guys than regular nail clippers. We use a dremel for regular nail stuff, but for bigger cuts like this one, the wire cutters do the job.

The way she tore it, she had about an eighth of an inch of quick exposed which of course was very sore and open to all sorts of fun infection. Not to mention blood everywhere! Cutting the nail behind the tear meant just a dot of quick exposed so it was instantly less sore, less bleeding, and healed right up.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

My dog did that, split her nail and it was bleeding a bit with a loose wobbly split at the side. I cut it off myself and soaked her paw in salt water, she was fine. Hubby was the only one having hysterics, Elles didn't even yip. I didn't think it was a vet thing.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

Elles said:


> My dog did that, split her nail and it was bleeding a bit with a loose wobbly split at the side. I cut it off myself and soaked her paw in salt water, she was fine. Hubby was the only one having hysterics, Elles didn't even yip. I didn't think it was a vet thing.


'Cause you're a horse person. We tend to do things at home. (Much to our vet's chagrin sometimes :Bag)
Admiti it, you've lanced barn cat abscesses in the tack room haven't you?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Basically you're weighing one quick ouchy cut vs. several sticks with a needle (that also hurts). It makes sense to me to just deal with the one quick ouch.


Plus the dog's probable new fear of vets, which can affect it for life and make further treatment for more serious illnesses more difficult.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

Burrowzig said:


> Plus the dog's probable new fear of vets, which can affect it for life and make further treatment for more serious illnesses more difficult.


Oh, IDK... a lot of that is inherent temperament and how the vet practice and owners deal with it. Both of mine only go to the vet for ouchy procedures because they're accident prone idiots (the dogs). They both love the vet and the techs. Even Lunar who used to have to go in every 3 weeks for blood draws was a sweetheart. Offered his paw even though he knew they were going to stick a needle in it.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

My GSP who is a very sensitive soul with some phobias did a similar thing, my vet has always sedated my previous dogs when they've done this (rather than a GA) but for some reason on this occasion he took him out the back and we heard the same blood curdling scream which I have to admit made us pretty angry and upset too. Yes in a life and death emergency situation you sometimes have to hold them down and do something quick but I personally don't see the need to do that otherwise. In retrospect I should not have allowed the vet to take him out the back and do that without our knowledge. My dog didn't hold it against the vet though and took a treat from him when we were leaving, can't say its made him more nervous about going to the vet as he was frightened anyway before this incident.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

My dog loves everyone, even vets, I'd like to keep it that way. She probably thinks serial killers and animal abusers are just misunderstood and need a hug. 

Sounds like a horrible and unnecessary experience to me.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Elles said:


> My dog loves everyone, even vets, I'd like to keep it that way. She probably thinks serial killers and animal abusers are just misunderstood and need a hug.
> 
> Sounds like a horrible and unnecessary experience to me.


That is just how I felt when it happened to Colt. If there had been no alternative or his life was in danger then fair enough. I felt we had let him down too.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

The only time Flynn goes to the vets is when he needs something not very nice doing. The amount of blood tests he's had is numerous, he's had surgery, tooth removal, x rays, heart scans (obviously all under GA but the before and after part of a GA isnt nice) but he's always excited to go to the vets and drags me to the door. The promise of treats has alot to do with it but he's certainly never been put off going by the tonnes of needles he's had there or the amount of prodding, poking and pulling that the vets do.


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## Tamberlane (Jul 8, 2014)

Broken dewclaw nails rarely seem to hurt once the loose nails is cut away but the cut can be sore.

We do 50/50. sedation versus restraint and cut depending on how well attached the claw is,temperment of the owner and dog, and if there are underlying factors that would make sedation dangerous etc.

I cut my own dogs hanging nail off without sedation/local. 
She hated the cut-blood curdling howl of unhappiness(as it does briefly hurt and shes dramatic at the best of times) but was happy again within a few moments...much happier then she had been with it hanging off.
Local anaesthetic stings like hell so I would not use it in these cases as its more painful then the procedure being preformed...
Not all sedation drugs take away the sting and pain....they just stops them responding and reacting...so it really depends on which ones the dog is getting...2 common examples..
Domitor has some pain relief affects but it causes a massive drop in blood pressure etc so I'm not a massive fan unless its mixed with other drugs.it can be reversed easily which is good though.
Acp does not have pain relief but is generally a less severe physiological effect on the body....but cannot be reversed easily and needs to run its course.
Personally I see the risks of sedation as a bigger concern then the brief pain or removing a broken nail.

I do...however always warn owners before hand that it will be briefly painful and give the option of sedation if they want it.

I would not put a dog under general anaesthetic(multiple drugs are generally involved in a ga-premeds,induction and gas) for a broken dewclaw (unless it required surgery)as it doesnt match the risk versus benifits ratio for the dog in my head.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

I do think the vet could have easily and quickly explained that it would be faster and safer to just nip the nail off quickly, just so the owner was at least aware.

I always ask what the plan is so I can make the final decision or at least be prepared.


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## Tamberlane (Jul 8, 2014)

Definately a massive communications fail! and a very poor idea not to mention that she may yelp as some dogs are quite dramatic about it(my own included!)Many however do not yelp or cry when the nail is removed.

Its better to be honest and say this will briefly hurt... then have a waiting room full of people whinch and wonder whats going on to the poor animal out the back.The treatment area shouldnt be somewhere people fear to have their animals brought.

We deliberately call our back room the treatment area... as saying "out the back" makes it sounds shady and suspicious...our treatments area has better lighting for inserting ivs and giving iv meds,oxygen and all drugs on hands and a nurse availiable for restraint if required.

We usually bring animals out if they are better behaved without owners/owners needle phobic/needs nurse restaint for invasive procedures-trim nails/bloods etc/injections or if anythings going iv as I want to set myself up to maximise my chances of getting the vein in one stick.
I would always bring a nail removal out to the treatment area because its invasive to do!and because I trust our nurses to hold a dog a lot more then any owner could.Its their job and they are good at it.

We are a team and work together all the time so I trust their judgement when they ask for muzzle/sedation etc as well.


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## Freyja (Jun 28, 2008)

Oh the joys of owning a breed that routinely has their dew claws removed we never have this problem as with owning sight hounds their dew claws are routinely removed at 3 days old. 

Saying this my chihuahuas still have dew claws but to be perfectly honest some of them scream anyway when you just cut their claws they are such drama queens a couple of them just hate having their paws touched so much they scream anyway


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Tamberlane said:


> We deliberately call our back room the treatment area... as saying "out the back" makes it sounds shady and suspicious...


Yep, I never say 'out the back'. It's needlessly worrying and makes something that's not a big deal... a big deal!


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## natethegrate (Jan 14, 2016)

Elles said:


> The op saying they took her into the surgery room and that they wanted a GA made me think they cut the whole thing off without anaesthetic, not just clipped the claw and I was horrified. Overactive imagination hopefully.
> 
> I hope it was just trimming a broken claw, which would sting a bit. I wouldn't expect anaesthetic for that though and I hope she's feeling better soon.
> 
> ETA I've always held my dog on the table for the vet, so it seemed odd to me.


Sorry I haven't been able to get to a pc in a while, the whole thing was cut off. When we saw her again the wound was completely exposed we were never given anything wrap it and for a few days we could see the bone. The vet knocked it and she let out another shorter scream. 
Only the top half was hanging the bottom half was just like a undamaged dew claw, the reason they gave was "to prevent it happening again" they also recommended that we remove the rest at another time.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

natethegrate said:


> Sorry I haven't been able to get to a pc in a while, the whole thing was cut off. When we saw her again the wound was completely exposed we were never given anything wrap it and for a few days we could see the bone. The vet knocked it and she let out another shorter scream.


Are you in the UK?

If this is actually what happened, im pretty sure your vet has committed an illegal act.

I would contact the RCVS for advice.


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## natethegrate (Jan 14, 2016)

Nonnie said:


> Are you in the UK?
> 
> If this is actually what happened, im pretty sure your vet has committed an illegal act.
> 
> I would contact the RCVS for advice.


yep I am. 
The vet did knock it accidentally they were trying to shows us what they had done.
I've updated my previous reply with more details but long story short they did it to prevent her having to come back.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I find it hard to believe that the vet would leave a wound open like that. Did you take any photos?


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2017)

natethegrate said:


> Sorry I haven't been able to get to a pc in a while, the whole thing was cut off. When we saw her again the wound was completely exposed we were never given anything wrap it and for a few days we could see the bone. The vet knocked it and she let out another shorter scream.
> Only the top half was hanging the bottom half was just like a undamaged dew claw, the reason they gave was "to prevent it happening again" they also recommended that we remove the rest at another time.


Just making sure I'm understanding correctly, they took the entire digit off? Not just the nail?


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## natethegrate (Jan 14, 2016)

ouesi said:


> Just making sure I'm understanding correctly, they took the entire digit off? Not just the nail?


It's gone, you can feel the bone that healed back underneath the skin.


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## natethegrate (Jan 14, 2016)

Mirandashell said:


> I find it hard to believe that the vet would leave a wound open like that. Did you take any photos?


Ik it sounds stupid but I kind of quelled my doubts with "She's a vet, she knows what she's doing". I wish I had now though


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2017)

natethegrate said:


> It's gone, you can feel the bone that healed back underneath the skin.


If they did that without at the very least local anesthesia, that's insane and I'm pretty sure in violation of appropriate veterinary practices. Do you have photos?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

natethegrate said:


> Ik it sounds stupid but I kind of quelled my doubts with "She's a vet, she knows what she's doing". I wish I had now though


That's a shame because it's going to be difficult to prove anything she did without them. But to answer your original question, yes you were right to be upset.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Are you sure they didn't clip it back to the nail bed? that is what happened with my dog that I mentioned earlier but the nail eventually grew back. At first you could see the nail bed which looked a bit like bone I suppose. Or are you saying they have done a complete dew claw removal without anaesthetic or sedation? If that is the case please ask for their complaints procedure and make a formal complaint to the practice manager or senior vet.


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## Little P (Jun 10, 2014)

natethegrate said:


> Sorry I haven't been able to get to a pc in a while, the whole thing was cut off. When we saw her again the wound was completely exposed we were never given anything wrap it and for a few days we could see the bone. The vet knocked it and she let out another shorter scream.
> Only the top half was hanging the bottom half was just like a undamaged dew claw, the reason they gave was "to prevent it happening again" they also recommended that we remove the rest at another time.


Are you sure that it wasn't the fleshy bit of the quick that you could see? Usually the offending nail will be pulled off, the quick will be exposed (which may be sore for a day or two) this then recedes and the nail begins to grow back. They aren't usually dressed and don't usually require any further treatment.

Sounds like miscommunication to me - you could request a call from the treating vet so they can explain what they did.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Omg! . Are you sure? Can you take a photo of what's left now? Why did your friends think you were over reacting?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm sure the quick is what you could see. Cutting it back to the bone would be extremely difficult!

I'm another who tends to leave them open to be honest, rather than dressing.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

As others have said, a photo may be helpful so we can see what you mean.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

The OP said earlier that he doesn't have any photos. I can understand not dressing the quick but surely they wouldn't leave open a wound down to the bone?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Mirandashell said:


> The OP said earlier that he doesn't have any photos. I can understand not dressing the quick but surely they wouldn't leave open a wound down to the bone?


How did they get down to the bone though? I find it bloomin' difficult to do that even in anaesthetised patients - it's a two-hands-this-is-really-hurting-my-arms job.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

I don't know. I bow to your greater knowledge. And I'm not being sarky.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I hope the OP is able to post a photo and able to clarify what they mean.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2017)

Rear dew claws are often floppy and not attached to anything so you could I suppose whack 'em off with one quick cut, but yeah, an attached dew claw, not so much. 

We had rear dew claws removed on one of our muttdogs years ago after he gave me a small heart attack ripping one (not the claw the actual digit) ripped a vein in the process and tried to bleed to death. I told them to take both off. It was GA surgery with a good 8 stitches on each leg. It's not a quick "in office while the owner waits" surgery.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

ouesi said:


> It's not a quick "in office while the owner waits" surgery.


You need to either use bone cutters (which are what I find difficult but I'm probably just feeble) or disarticulate - neither would be appropriate in a conscious dog - far from it, it would be barbaric - but I'm sceptical that either would actually be physically possible without twenty people sitting on the dog and blood spraying everywhere, which is why I'm thinking the exposed 'bone' is actually the quick, which can be easily mistaken.


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

That makes more sense.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

A photo even if it has now healed should give our resident vets an idea of what they took away.


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## Tamberlane (Jul 8, 2014)

It seems unlikely to be the actual dewclaw to the bone....they are removed surgically and bleed like the devil even when theres no bony involvement... 
Hind dewclaw removals often take me longer then a castration!its not always just a simple chop and go....and its defiantely something you could easily do to a concious older dog in a few minutes.

Like ceiling kitty i'd suspect it was exposed quick from cutting off a broken nail...which is pretty normal.
I don't bandage either.


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