# Euro elections



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Up to now its been, what's them then?

but im inspired by current events to finally cast a vote in them

these current crop of politicians need a good kicking...........*just* for the euro elections, im voting UKIP


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## Bisbow (Feb 20, 2012)

I have no idea who is standing for my area. WE have not had any notification at all, so we will see what happens


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Bisbow said:


> I have no idea who is standing for my area. WE have not had any notification at all, so we will see what happens


Likewise, had our polling cards and that is it, no canvassing yet by any candidate.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

3dogs2cats said:


> Likewise, had our polling cards and that is it, no canvassing yet by any candidate.


Ditto

albeit everyone knows you will have at least a Labour conservative lib dem and ukip candidate

maybe a green?

Basic info all parties;

Ukip; in/out referendum now

cons ; referendum after next general election only after they have become next government then negotiated with all other EU. member counties regarding UK terms and conditions of. EU membership

lib dems ; no referendum, completely pro EU would prefer more integration

Labour ; no referendum


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

No canvassing here yet, which has been disappointing, but I've looked up who is representing my area so I can do my own research - I will be voting with the sole purpose of trying to keep UKIP out! 
UK MEPs
I find Farrage an insidious man and his party are promoting racism, bigotry and hatred with stealth and deceit  But that's only my opinion


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Fleur said:


> I find Farrage an insidious man and his party are promoting racism, bigotry and hatred with stealth and deceit  But that's only my opinion


Prejudice and intolerance are not the way forward and any party advocating such ideas is holding mankind back in the dark ages.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

yep got my polling card yesterday.. at least they bothered to send me one this time, thats a first.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Prejudice and intolerance are not the way forward and any party advocating such ideas is holding mankind back in the dark ages.


In the UK there is a large groundswell of thought which says UKIP party isn't these things and its just the other establishment parties who don't care about the electorate just labeling Ukip this way to detract from the serious and valid problems ththey are highlighting and because they are shitting themselves as people are abandoning the. mainstream parties d


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Vote UKIP, let the English rule England!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> In the UK there is a large groundswell of thought which says UKIP party isn't these things.


And the devil wears many faces. One of which will be attractive to someone.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> And the devil wears many faces. One of which will be attractive to someone.


Sounds like a description of any politician to me , or priest for that matter


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

We've had our cards but no blurb yet. We never get candidates door-knocking anymore. Mind you, 75% of my street struggle to speak English so that is probably why.

Personally, I like Farage. I like his plain speaking, says it like it is attitude. No fannying around, gets to the point. 

I like the fact he is NOT against immigration, he just wants better controlled immigration. He understands there is no point in allowing 300,000 incomers every year when the infrastructure of the country is not strong enough to cope with such numbers. I fail to see how anyone can have a problem with that. 

He wants folks to be able to speak English when they arrive in the UK to minimise costs of getting translators. I fail to see how anyone can have a problem with that either. 

I will be doing more research this time around on the candidates standing and their own personal agendas but, on the face of it at this time, I'll be voting UKIP.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I'll be voting for the party that fights for improving animal welfare - aswell as working for clean air, clean beaches, clean food ..basically cares about the planet. So the Greens will be getting my vote.

I could never vote for UKIP (sorry DT ) Their MEPs have a shocking record on environmental & animal welfare issues. Ukip are a bunch of frauds, they want to withdraw from the EU BUT NOT from the Common Agriculture Policy - which is the most blatant transfer of money from the poor to the rich.

They don't even care about elephants:sad: >>>


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> I'll be voting for the party that fights for improving animal welfare - aswell as working for clean air, clean beaches, clean food ..basically cares about the planet. So the Greens will be getting my vote.
> 
> *I could never vote for UKIP (sorry DT ) Their MEPs have a shocking record on environmental & animal welfare issues.* Ukip are a bunch of frauds, they want to withdraw from the EU BUT NOT from the Common Agriculture Policy - which is the most blatant transfer of money from the poor to the rich.


After inadvertantly voting in a blood-thirsty tory at the last General Election, I will be giving all candidates a damn good grilling to find out what their policies, and personal views, are on animal welfare. If none of them meet the mark, I will making a 'not voting' comment on my ballot paper.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

wont get anyone knocking on doors round this way thats for sure... so i dunno who to vote for really... "anyone but tory" is my current thinking (though i'd feel pretty bad about voting for nationalists like UKIP too.. especially after just reading noushkas post and finding out that they hate animals as well as foreigners.).


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Zaros said:


> And the devil wears many faces. One of which will be attractive to someone.


and speaking of Tony Blair.....up he popped today warning of the dangers of Islam...

again


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The options where I live are mostly Sinn Fein which I refuse to vote for. I wouldn't vote UKIP regardless, but it's funny how the nationalists become popular when the economy goes downhill etc.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

You may all wish to read UKIP's policy on hunting...
Party policies | OneKind

I haven't seen any evidence that would make me vote for them, this merely adds to the many reasons why not.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> You may all wish to read UKIP's policy on hunting...
> Party policies |*OneKind
> 
> I haven't seen any evidence that would make me vote for them, this merely adds to the many reasons why not.


i dont care about that for now

any party can have any policy they like about anything, but its a waste of time, as most of the power to make laws is set with brussels now, not westminster.

so for the point of this particular election - the euro parliament - im gonna vote for the party that wishes to reverse that reality.

then once thats achieved, i will looked at policies and decide for british elections
most likely greens - but then we need a proper democratic election system ourselves first, a PR not first past the post, as too many votes are ignored so the system is just a stitch up to suit labour and conservatives


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Voting Green

Re UKIP apart from being racist, and having a pretty shoddy record with regards to expenses themselves (300k unexplained expenses plus 60k allowance as MEP which Farage has refused to disclose on its expenditure, into his private account) - there is also this:


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> The options where I live are mostly Sinn Fein which I refuse to vote for. I wouldn't vote UKIP regardless, but *it's funny how the nationalists become popular when the economy goes downhill etc*.


That's how Hitler was elected. 
I never ever would vote for UKIP as I found their policies repellant.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

ladydog said:


> That's how Hitler was elected.
> I never ever would vote for UKIP as I found their policies repellant.


My original post took a lot of rewording to avoid any mention of this :lol:


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> i dont care about that for now
> 
> any party can have any policy they like about anything, but its a waste of time, as most of the power to make laws is set with brussels now, not westminster.
> 
> ...


You really think that **** Farage can do that.... Oh dear.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

For the first time ever, I don't think I'm going to vote.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> Voting Green
> 
> Re UKIP apart from being racist, and having a pretty shoddy record with regards to expenses themselves (300k unexplained expenses plus 60k allowance as MEP which Farage has refused to disclose on its expenditure, into his private account) - there is also this:


no link showing

i heard about expenses, will look that up. i wouldnt defend it either if it is what it is

they arent racist. thats just well and truly an old hat long discredited line that politicos come up with every time someone mentions immigration. the debate has well and truly moved on from such shallow and knee jerk ideological reactions.

remember gordon brown and the election? - that famous 'bigot' incident which probably was one of the main things that lost him the election.

even socialists and greens have euro sceptic wings.

for me, its about democracy, human rights, sovereignty, and self determination of peoples - and the EU structure is an ememy of all of that, they are just a right wing corporate soviet set up only for the interests of big business.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> no link showing
> 
> i heard about expenses, will look that up. i wouldnt defend it either if it is what it is
> 
> ...


The link shows the 6 UKIP MEPs who voted against the EU vote regarding a crackdown on illegal trade of ivory. Farage included.

And they do seem pretty racist, and pretty bigoted all round. Even their recent billboard campaign is an echo of a BNP campaign not so long ago about "foreign workers" - Although why Nigels German Wife (who he empoys as his secretary) is exempt from this idea is anyone's guess...

I would only really be voting to cancel out a UKIP vote.. I feel VERY strongly about them. I dislike all the main parties, but none with such a passion.

(UKIP counsellors have come out with some crackers for a party that claim not to be full of bigots. Women; our 'real work' as 'that of the child-bearer and nurturer', everything else was 'inconsequential froth' [David Griffiths].. Gays cause floods [David Sylvester], Shops should be allowed to refuse to serve women or gays [Donne Edmunds], oh and Doglas Denny thinks Gay people are abnormal...)


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> The link shows the 6 UKIP MEPs who voted against the EU vote regarding a crackdown on illegal trade of ivory. Farage included.
> 
> And they do seem pretty racist, and pretty bigoted all round. Even their recent billboard campaign is an echo of a BNP campaign not so long ago about "foreign workers" - Although why Nigels German Wife (who he empoys as his secretary) is exempt from this idea is anyone's guess...
> 
> ...


no link showing, but someone already posted that earlier anyway, and as i said earlier i dont care about those other ukip policies etc right now, as it matters not a jot what anyone's policies are at this time, when we cant govern ourselves properly and choose many of our own laws anyway

i know all about the odd members with dodgy comments but im not too fussed for the time being, the priority is to get the EU referendum message to become reality. after which, and hopefully after UK gets PR, id vote in a green government

and the recent posters are more like gordon brown's labour party posters about british jobs for british workers.
neither posters said anything about race, it was just british....in referance to the wider issues of uncontrolled immigration and the undemocratic nature of the EU. their is nothing racist in discussing the problems in both these areas, thats just a smokescreen.
thats like saying im a fascist or racist as i believe in animal rights, as historically many fascist parties did indeed have strong animal rights policies.
just as one example.

have no idea what BNP billboard posters you are referring to. the BNP are a bunch of ******s and are now are now washed up anyway.


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> no link showing, but someone already posted that earlier anyway, and as i said earlier i dont care about those other ukip policies etc right now, as it matters not a jot what anyone's policies are at this time, when we cant govern ourselves properly and choose many of our own laws anyway
> 
> i know all about the odd members with dodgy comments but im not too fussed for the time being, the priority is to get the EU referendum message to become reality. after which, and hopefully after UK gets PR, id vote in a green government
> 
> ...




















And if this isnt scaremongering, i dont know what is:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> And if this isnt scaremongering, i dont know what is:


not scaremongering. both are addressing problems with the EU. just hard hitting, just like most electioneering posters are.
the BNP poster hasnt got anything to do with it. different party.
why didnt you throw the labour party british jobs for british workers poster in?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> not scaremongering. both are addressing problems with the EU. just hard hitting, just like most electioneering posters are.
> the BNP poster hasnt got anything to do with it. different party.
> why didnt you throw the labour party british jobs for british workers poster in?


Cos i dont remember it. Just as disgraceful. Its cheap shot, we rely on legal migrants. 1 in 7 new companies are from foreign workers... creating jobs. Its xenophobic at best, racism at worst.

All it does is create scapegoats for the countries problems at the door of migrant workers.

Also, the BNP one is relevant cos they are basically the same poster. One openly racist party and one thats just racist in a tory getup.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> Cos i dont remember it. Just as disgraceful. Its cheap shot, we rely on legal migrants. 1 in 7 new companies are from foreign workers... creating jobs. Its xenophobic at best, racism at worst.
> 
> All it does is create scapegoats for the countries problems at the door of migrant workers.
> 
> Also, the BNP one is relevant cos they are basically the same poster. One openly racist party and one thats just racist in a tory getup.


disagree

its about returning liberal democracy to our country from the corrupt dictatorial extremists in brussels
that is the best thing for british people, it makes not a jot of difference what their colour or ethnicity is. we are the electorate and we have never ever been given a vote whether or not we want to be in the EU.

everyone sees thru the whole call UKIP the BNP line now. that hand busted a while back. its just pro EU propoganda. UKIP wont even have anything to do with far right parties in european countries.

if it were a general election, i wouldnt even be interested in other UKIP policies, id vote green. but lets get our own country back first, shall we?
multinational corporations love the EU because its all about importing cheap labour from abroad thus forcing british people to work for less also, while the minority get richer and richer on the back of everyone else as we all get poorer.
they and their EU puppets dont give a fck for the welfare of any europeans, whatever the country.
the point is the countries others come from should be working toward better conditions so their wages and living conditions are working to meet ours, not the other way round. but the globalisation model of which the EU is part engineers against all that.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> and speaking of Tony Blair.....up he popped today warning of the dangers of Islam...
> 
> again


Propaganda has been at work for centuries and is still proving to be a tool every bit as efficient now as it was then.

However, it will never cease to amaze me why UKIP have seats in the European Parliament.

Surely that's rather like the KKK having an NBA team.:confused1:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Propaganda has been at work for centuries and is still proving to be a tool every bit as efficient now as it was then.
> 
> However, it will never cease to amaze me why UKIP have seats in the European Parliament.
> 
> Surely that's rather like the KKK having an NBA team.:confused1:


dont you mean, surely thats like the EU having a parliament?


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## lennythecloud (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm voting green. They usually vote for policies I agree with, seem to have a genuinely principled leadership and are consistently strong on animal protection Green Party | Green Party release 2014 European Elections Manifesto on Animal Protection

It really concerns me that anyone actually reads UKIPs manifesto and concludes they're worth voting for. It slightly reassures me that a lot of people voting for them haven't really read their policies and are only going that way because they have concerns about Europe and like that straight talking bloke that goes on about it.


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## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

lennythecloud said:


> I'm voting green. They usually vote for policies I agree with, seem to have a genuinely principled leadership and are consistently strong on animal protection Green Party | Green Party release 2014 European Elections Manifesto on Animal Protection
> 
> *It really concerns me that anyone actually reads UKIPs manifesto and concludes they're worth voting for.* It slightly reassures me that a lot of people voting for them haven't really read their policies and are only going that way because they have concerns about Europe and like that straight talking bloke that goes on about it.


Haven't read it for a while, can you tell me which policies put you off?


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> They don't even care about elephants:sad: >>>


Personally I have little (no) trust in the motives of any of EU proposals so have done a bit of digging around into the elephant vote. A few bits below I have read (comments on the Telegraph):

The ivory trade is already illegal. If you read the details of the proposal you will find it to be yet another power grab,money wasting, bureaucracy imposing initiative that will do more harm than good.

The ivory trade has already been banned in every country in the world except China. The EU does not need to ban it, it is already illegal. UKIP know and understand this and see the nonsense for what it really is. They oppose everything that the EU stands for so what do you want them to do when the EU proposes something that is totally unnecessary or is just more EU hot air? Any and every proposal passed by the EU is just another power grab, nothing else. There is no other purpose to their legislation.

It was about using 12 and a bit million from the "European Development fund" to count Elephants and Turtles in Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific over 4 years. So 3 million a year to go on jollies to warm places, go on safari and nice cruises using the "European Development Fund". But vote against it and you are an Elephant hater.

Personally I suspect the last comment is the most likely scenario


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

lennythecloud said:


> It really concerns me that anyone actually reads UKIPs manifesto and concludes they're worth voting for.


None of them are worth voting for, thats the whole problem. but some are worth voting against.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Not read all the replies yet (I will do) but one thing strikes me as peculiar right away - can those who have decided to vote UKIP explain to me what the point is in voting for a Euro MP who does not want to be part of the system, and who has been a euro MP for 10 years now - ie who is, therefore, partially responsible for Europe as it is now, the Europe you seem to be against??

If it were a referendum on staying in or out of Europe I can understand that some people would vote to stay in and some would vote to stay out.

But this election is not about whether or not we stay in Europe, it is about electing an MP to work in Europe on behalf of our country. What is the point in electing someone who is against the system? Until such times that we decide once and for all whether we are in or out, surely it is better to have a Euro MP who is part of the system so they can represent and fight for our views?

Farage has been a euro MP since 2004. He has not exactly had a sparkling carreer in Europe, not done anything for our country in Europe in the past 10years - and the immigration levels you are so wired up about have happened with Farage as a Euro MP.

So why would anyone want to vote him in again to continue doing zilch?


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Not read all the replies yet (I will do) but one thing strikes me as peculiar right away - can those who have decided to vote UKIP explain to me what the point is in voting for a Euro MP who does not want to be part of the system, and who has been a euro MP for 10 years now - ie who is, therefore, partially responsible for Europe as it is now, the Europe you seem to be against??
> 
> If it were a referendum on staying in or out of Europe I can understand that some people would vote to stay in and some would vote to stay out.
> 
> ...


I did try to paste the relevent cut from their manifesto but it kept going skewy so here is the link instead.

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne.../1398167812/EuroManifestoMarch.pdf?1398167812

The main points are they go to Europe to keep updated of what Europe is planning and to investigate how it will affect the UK. They create an opposition to ensure that Europe doesn't ride rough-shod over the UK. They work to prevent the EU becoming more powerful & pass more laws that would encroach on our UK democracy.

I have now sent an email to UKIP to find out who their MEP candidate is for my area - if we have one of course. I will then submit the poor fecker to that damn good grilling I mentioned on his / her stance regarding animal rights / welfare / hunting acts & badger culls. Whilst the latter may not, at this time, be relevent to an MEP it is worth knowing their views in case it does become an issue in the future. Ya never know....


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Not read all the replies yet (I will do) but one thing strikes me as peculiar right away - can those who have decided to vote UKIP explain to me what the point is in voting for a Euro MP who does not want to be part of the system, and who has been a euro MP for 10 years now - ie who is, therefore, partially responsible for Europe as it is now, the Europe you seem to be against??
> 
> If it were a referendum on staying in or out of Europe I can understand that some people would vote to stay in and some would vote to stay out.
> 
> ...


I would say they are doing exactly that, working for the UK fighting against the EU system from within. The rest of them are so pro Europe whatever the cost to the UK they agree to anything


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> The main points are they go to Europe to keep updated of what Europe is planning and to investigate how it will affect the UK. They create an opposition to ensure that Europe doesn't ride rough-shod over the UK. They work to prevent the EU becoming more powerful & pass more laws that would encroach on our UK democracy.





DoodlesRule said:


> I would say they are doing exactly that, working for the UK fighting against the EU system from within. The rest of them are so pro Europe whatever the cost to the UK they agree to anything


But that's the part I don't understand. Farage has been a Euro MP for 10 years now - and being as some people are so up in arms about how Europe is affecting us, ruling us, not letting us rule our own country etc etc, then he has not done a very good job of fighting for the UK for the last 10 years, has he?

So why would someone want to vote an inept and ineffective Euro MP back in again?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> But that's the part I don't understand. Farage has been a Euro MP for 10 years now - and being as some people are so up in arms about how Europe is affecting us, ruling us, not letting us rule our own country etc etc, then he has not done a very good job of fighting for the UK for the last 10 years, has he?
> 
> So why would someone want to vote an inept and ineffective Euro MP back in again?


*I totally agree with your post Val. If anything i think it makes Farage a damn hypocrite.
But then i never liked the guy anyway. BNP in disguise imo.*


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> disagree
> 
> its about returning liberal democracy to our country from the corrupt dictatorial extremists in brussels
> that is the best thing for british people, it makes not a jot of difference what their colour or ethnicity is. we are the electorate and we have never ever been given a vote whether or not we want to be in the EU.
> ...


Actually just read an article stating that French National Front will have nothing to do the UKIP while forging alliances with other nasty parties in Europe.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ladydog said:


> Actually just read an article stating that French National Front will have nothing to do the UKIP while forging alliances with other nasty parties in Europe.


The reason Marie le pan is furious with farage and UKIP. is because she is forming a new Euro parliament grouping of far right nationalists and farage said he won't have anything to do with her party due to its anti semitic history . so he snubbed her in favour of another smaller French euro sceptic party that doesn't have any racist affiliations .
as that is the type of party UKIP is

so he rejected her not other way round


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Personally I have little (no) trust in the motives of any of EU proposals so have done a bit of digging around into the elephant vote. A few bits below I have read (comments on the Telegraph):
> 
> The ivory trade is already illegal. If you read the details of the proposal you will find it to be yet another power grab,money wasting, bureaucracy imposing initiative that will do more harm than good.
> 
> ...


Those comments are ludicrous. Have you read the details of the resolution yourself DR? http://ens-newswire.com/2014/01/16/european-parliament-votes-for-wildlife-crime-crackdown/ Conservationists & NGO's have been lobbying the EU long & hard for a crackdown on wildlife crime & have welcomed this move forward.

_Will Travers, CEO of the international wildlife charity the Born Free Foundation, said, "I am delighted at this development and now hope that the EU will use its considerable power, influence and resources to play a leading role in ending the slaughter and exploitation of the world's wildlife heritage. Clearly many developing countries do not have the resources to tackle the issue but with funding and technical assistance I know they are willing to take effective action."

Travers said, "I am pleased that key forms of wildlife exploitation were included such as the impact of trophy hunting and the live trade in exotic animals as 'pets.'"
"Right now my top priority is to see significant resources flow to support the African Elephant Action Plan, a unique blueprint for the survival of Africa's elephants developed and agreed by all the 38 African countries where the species lives. The European Parliament has demonstrated its strength of feeling on this issue but now there is an urgent need for action."
_

Playing politics with the lives of endangered species is unforgivable. We are talking about species being wiped off the face of the planet here - we don't have time to mess around. Without action NOW within the next 6 years Rhino will be extinct in the wild - Imagine if all MEP's had voted no? Shame on those who did.

UKIP are charlatans >> Why are UKIP silent supporters of the biggest EU rip-off of all? | Liberal Conspiracy



MoggyBaby said:


> I did try to paste the relevent cut from their manifesto but it kept going skewy so here is the link instead.
> 
> http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne.../1398167812/EuroManifestoMarch.pdf?1398167812
> 
> ...


I can tell you now MB, Farage is very much pro hunting - strongly suspect pro badger cull too. I spoke to a local councillor & he told me Ukip would hold county referendums on these issues, knowing full well that though the majority oppose hunting and culling, its not a priority & many would be too apathetic to bother voting -- the hunt/shoot/farm lobbies on the other hand, rabid for blood, would be out in force. (Would be interesting to see if your candidate tells you the same re local referendums.)

Fox hunting: Nigel Farage shows UKIP support for fox hunting at Boxing Day chase - but 80% of Brits back the ban - Mirror Online



DoodlesRule said:


> I would say they are doing exactly that, working for the UK fighting against the EU system from within. The rest of them are so pro Europe whatever the cost to the UK they agree to anything


UKIP MEP's are getting very well paid for doing sod all.

This magnificent take down of Farage is classic - "biggest waste of EU resources is Nigel Farage"

[youtube_browser]/0M4hExU-tfg[/youtube_browser]


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> The reason Marie le pan is furious with farage and UKIP. is because she is forming a new Euro parliament grouping of far right nationalists and farage said he won't have anything to do with her party due to its anti semitic history . so he snubbed her in favour of another smaller French euro sceptic party that doesn't have any racist affiliations .
> as that is the type of party UKIP is
> 
> so he rejected her not other way round


I have read the article in the Times as well the ones in the French newspaper Liberation. Both are saying the same thing: the FN rejected the UKIP not the other way round. 
Regarding the fact that UKIP doesn't have racist affiliations, I have to say that is like saying that Father Christmas exists.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ladydog said:


> I have read the article in the Times as well the ones in the French newspaper Liberation. Both are saying the same thing: the FN rejected the UKIP not the other way round.
> Regarding the fact that UKIP doesn't have racist affiliations, I have to say that is like saying that Father Christmas exists.


No, i have read the Sunday Times article you mention, and it is an interview with the Front Nationale leader Marine Le Pen, in regards to the resurgant popularity of her party and her plan with Gert Wilders of the Dutch Freedom Party to form a new Eurosceptic grouping of various far right parties from round Europe.
If you read the article closely, it states that Farage is not welcome, as she is hopping mad with him, as she feels _he rejected her offer_ to join the grouping, and in doing so, she states he slander her and her party for his own publicity seeking ends.

This stems from _before this newspaper article_ (about week before) whereby Farage went to France to attend a rally of the Eurosceptic party Debout la Republique. He was warmly welcomed at this rally, and this is where he announced official ties between the two groups, as an alternative to joining Le Pen and Gilders grouping. Whilst he complimented Le Pen on modernizing her party, he said he wouldnt have anything to do with her, due to the anti antisemitism the National Front is known for.
And it is this that has _since_ made her announce UKIP are no longer welcome in her new Euro parliament grouping.

This is all verifiable online including BBC and the guardian

So you see, despite what you assert, that is evidence to the contrary of your racism charge.
The French National Front are a well know racist party in France, and have been popular to a degree for years. They are quite famous (I have been aware of them for years), and they do well in mainstream elections, they aren't a fringe joke party like the British National Front or BNP. 
Therefore Nigel Farage has stated her wont have anything to do with a well known racist political party.

And Father Christmas does exist


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

PS - what i explained above is the reason i wrote the sentence that you originally quoted me on


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Tails and Trails said:


> No, i have read the Sunday Times article you mention, and it is an interview with the Front Nationale leader Marine Le Pen, in regards to the resurgant popularity of her party and her plan with Gert Wilders of the Dutch Freedom Party to form a new Eurosceptic grouping of various far right parties from round Europe.
> If you read the article closely, it states that Farage is not welcome, as she is hopping mad with him, as she feels _he rejected her offer_ to join the grouping, and in doing so, she states he slander her and her party for his own publicity seeking ends.
> 
> This stems from _before this newspaper article_ (about week before) whereby Farage went to France to attend a rally of the Eurosceptic party Debout la Republique. He was warmly welcomed at this rally, and this is where he announced official ties between the two groups, as an alternative to joining Le Pen and Gilders grouping. Whilst he complimented Le Pen on modernizing her party, he said he wouldnt have anything to do with her, due to the anti antisemitism the National Front is known for.
> ...


I am well aware of the FN as I am French! They do well in mainstream elections for the simple fact that we have the PR election system. 
So Farage has complimented Le Pen for modernizing her party, this in itself tells you a lot about the man. He must admire her greatly to do so. 
I always find suspicious people who decree loudly that they are not racist. 
You do not hear the like of Labour, the Green, etc doing this. Why not? Yes Farage has to hammer the point. He seems to me that he has to justify himself too often. 
Feel free to believe in Father Christmas but you have yet to convince me that he exists.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> No, i have read the Sunday Times article you mention, and it is an interview with the Front Nationale leader Marine Le Pen, in regards to the resurgant popularity of her party and her plan with Gert Wilders of the Dutch Freedom Party to form a new Eurosceptic grouping of various far right parties from round Europe.
> If you read the article closely, it states that Farage is not welcome, as she is hopping mad with him, as she feels _he rejected her offer_ to join the grouping, and in doing so, she states he slander her and her party for his own publicity seeking ends.
> 
> This stems from _before this newspaper article_ (about week before) whereby Farage went to France to attend a rally of the Eurosceptic party Debout la Republique. He was warmly welcomed at this rally, and this is where he announced official ties between the two groups, as an alternative to joining Le Pen and Gilders grouping. Whilst he complimented Le Pen on modernizing her party, he said he wouldnt have anything to do with her, due to the anti antisemitism the National Front is known for.
> ...


I wonder if the fact that you still believe Father Christmas exists could explain why you appear to be deluded about other issues?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> they aren't a fringe joke party like the BNP.
> 
> Nigel Farage has stated her wont have anything to do with a well known racist political party.


Didn't UKIP ban BNP members from joining their party.:yesnod:

Now, perhaps I'm missing something here but why would UKIP find it necessary to ban BNP if their policies weren't attractive to them in the first place. :confused1:

Oh I know because BNP are up front about their policies. :laugh:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ladydog said:


> I am well aware of the FN as I am French! They do well in mainstream elections for the simple fact that we have the PR election system.
> So Farage has complimented Le Pen for modernizing her party, this in itself tells you a lot about the man. He must admire her greatly to do so.
> I always find suspicious people who decree loudly that they are not racist.
> You do not hear the like of Labour, the Green, etc doing this. Why not? Yes Farage has to hammer the point. He seems to me that he has to justify himself too often.
> Feel free to believe in Father Christmas but you have yet to convince me that he exists.


Well, once you realised your 'evidence' that Farage has racist affiliations was mistaken, there was only the inevitable two straws left on the table for you to clutch. First being _'he would make a show of rejecting the National Front, wouldnt he, its a publicity stunt, to detract people from his true racist leanings'_. But the trouble with that one is you would have had to agree with Marine Le Pen about something (that being accusation of Farage's publicity stunt). That just left the other predictable straw you ended up using 

Well, if a man is accused of racism, of course you will hear him more often than other people make comments he is not racist! - that is not rocket science you know.
Maybe it says something about the people that keep making the charges - EU fanatic agenda, anyone?

Besides which, you are mistaken again, he never said he wont join with Le Pen because _he_ is not a racist, he said it is because _she_ is a racist (antisemitism)

The PR system just means that ALL your votes are counted, it doesnt mean the mean a party doesnt have a degree of popularity. We have had governments in Britain formed by parties that won the election via the first past the post system, yet got less total votes than the party they beat!
PR is true democracy. cant wait until the day we have it.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> Well, once you realised your 'evidence' that Farage has racist affiliations was mistaken, there was only the inevitable two straws left on the table for you to clutch. First being _'he would make a show of rejecting the National Front, wouldnt he, its a publicity stunt, to detract people from his true racist leanings'_. But the trouble with that one is you would have had to agree with Marine Le Pen about something (that being accusation of Farage's publicity stunt). That just left the other predictable straw you ended up using
> 
> Well, if a man is accused of racism, of course you will hear him more often than other people make comments he is not racist! - that is not rocket science you know.
> Maybe it says something about the people that keep making the charges - EU fanatic agenda, anyone?
> ...


I'm sorry, but you're beginning to sound just a little bit frantic.

Voting is a personal issue. If you choose to vote UKIP, that's absolutely your choice.

What I don't get is your campaign to a) convince others that's the way to go, and b) fight that Party's corner.

Make your choice and others will make theirs.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2014)

This discussion could be a copycat from our own "UKIP" party, the "True Finnish" party and their campaign. They too are very much against EU, but do not really understand anything about it. They cannot really describe what would be a better system and they never offer an alternative for anything they criticise. 

They are also very conservative (anti- abortion, mother working, anti -homos), pro hunting, againts animal rights and protecting nature, anti modern art (that stupid policy was actually in their party program) etc. Above all, they are very much anti-foreigners. This time all good seems to come from Finland, not from England, however. 

Their only talents seem to be able to say things in a simple way that even the most drunk Finn would understand. Many of them are regularly in court for slander too, and oddly enough, many have been petty criminals. 

What would really happen, if people like these would have real power? That is a scary thought for women, animals, nature and all minorities alike.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Didn't UKIP ban BNP members from joining their party.:yesnod:
> 
> Now, perhaps I'm missing something here but why would UKIP find it necessary to ban BNP if their policies weren't attractive to them in the first place. :confused1:
> 
> Oh I know because BNP are up front about their policies. :laugh:


Yes - he did!

Blimey, you can ban racists from joining your party and that's still 'evidence' that you are racist 
Of course UKIP policies are attractive to BNP supporters!
Its quite easy to figure out if you think about it, its nothing complicated!

The BNP, as a racist party, hates foreigners, therefore opposes anything that supports foreigners, such as immigration, and therefore the EU controlling british laws on immigration

The BNP, as a fascist party, opposes anything that goes against british nationalism, such as joining something called a european union that takes away britain's right to make it own laws.

Now, unless one wishes to run ones own thoughts and ideas only thru a biased ideological prism, it is quite easy to work to step back and objectively work out that different political parties with different ideas, ideologies, and polices can still have policy ideas that are the same.

Hence, some Greens are eurosceptic, some socialists are eurosceptic, some liberal/social democrats are eurosceptic, some conservatives are eurosceptic.

So that just mean a conservative philosophy party called UKIP happen to have similar policies as the BNP on a couple of issues (UKIP also have some policies similar to Labour and Conservative parties too), but not founded upon the same reasons as the BNP (race and fascism).
UKIP get support from across the political spectrum re those particular issues, as many people disagree with britain loosing its own sovereignty and democracy to make ts own laws, especially when the people of Britain have not had a vote on agreeing to this.
Many people in britain oppose current policies on immigration, as we are a small island that is bankrupt with millions unemployed and cannot fit any more people into houses, schools, hospitals etc.
Now, none of that has anything to do with race. Many britains of all colours have reached that conclusion. And UKIP have a policy of limiting EU immigration, as our country is not allowed to make its own decision on this matter. And the point is, all these EU people are white! So its hardly a racial issue!

The BNP is a joke fringe party that would never get elected, especially as we dont have a truly democratic voting system, and the BNP has also recently nearly collapsed internally.
So as their is an overlap, it is inevitable that some BNP members may be attracted to UKIP, as no other party in britain has policies they are interested in. UKIP realise this, so banned BNP members from joining.
Maybe a good question is do the other main parties have a policy of banning BNP members from joining? And if not, why not?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MrsZee said:


> This discussion could be a copycat from our own "UKIP" party, the "True Finnish" party and their campaign. They too are very much against EU, but do not really understand anything about it. They cannot really describe what would be a better system and they never offer an alternative for anything they criticise.
> 
> They are also very conservative (anti- abortion, mother working, anti -homos), pro hunting, againts animal rights and protecting nature, anti modern art (that stupid policy was actually in their party program) etc. Above all, they are very much anti-foreigners. This time all good seems to come from Finland, not from England, however.
> 
> ...


pro EU people always make that comment that anti EU people dont understand the EU. but they never explain what they mean when they say this (as you just didnt ). and when you point out to pro Eu people that we can have a free market and jobs etc with just a free trade agreement, and that we already did this when the EU was just the EEC, and then when you go on to ask them so why did we actually need an EU, they dont really have a convincing answer.
so the accusation of not understanding what the EU is about can work both ways


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> UKIP
> 
> BNP
> 
> ...


And another thing. For a man who intensely dislikes Europe and Europeans he proved himself to be quite the dealer of double standards by marrying a German. :laugh:

Furthermore, it's overpoweringly self evident that you're quite the little expert on all things UKIP and the subject of politics in general and yet here you are asserting your ideals on a Pet Forum.:thumbsup:

I took the liberty of editing your post for the specific purpose of showing you, by example, how much of a stuck record you sound like.:001_smile:

Did you know that each time you swallow you can hear little crackling sounds in your ears.

Now, why don't you be quiet and go and listen to yourself. :001_smile:


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2014)

Tails and Trails said:


> pro EU people always make that comment that anti EU people dont understand the EU. but they never explain what they mean when they say this (as you just didnt ). and when you point out to pro Eu people that we can have a free market and jobs etc with just a free trade agreement, and that we already did this when the EU was just the EEC, and then when you go on to ask them so why did we actually need an EU, they dont really have a convincing answer.
> so the accusation of not understanding what the EU is about can work both ways


Maybe I will make my point clearer then, despite the post becoming a bit too long.

1) About free market: Anti-EU people say very little about the actual agreements there exist. You speak of "free market and jobs e.g." What does that mean? Really a free market for all and everything? And free jobs? Isn´t that what anti-Europeans want to restrict radically?

EU has provided the consumers with lots of safety issues, so that things we buy wouldn´t be poisonous or dangerous. I think that is a good thing, but anti EU would say no to that.

US is trying to impose more freedom to sell genetic manipulated grains and many other products, and also to limit governments rights to restrict that. Big corporations naturally support US, but EU thinks that the it might not be right I agree with EU.

Corporations are selling us a new type of charger with just about every new mobile phone. EU said that that is not good. Corporations must have a standardised model. I think that is good too.

So my point here is that the EU is actually protecting us average consumers from the might of big corporations and I think that is good.

2) About the right to look for work for 6 months without permission

Nations with the biggest numbers of immigration are doing financially better. (Germany, Sweden, Holland, Britain etc). How justly the distribution of wealth is, is not an EU matter. I support this right. The EU needs to compete with Asia, India and the US. All very big economies with cheaper labour than the EU labourers will ever be. By denying the right to even look for work elsewhere, the option would not be "our Finnish or British" worker, it woud be Asian or Indian. We are not protecting our workers at all by keeping immigrants out, on the contrary.

My point here is that EU is protecting our EU labourers much more than UKIP or True Finns ever would. And I support EU in this matter too.

3) About animal rights
Did you know that now all chickens must have more space to move, sit on a perch and thus suffer less than what they used to. I think that is good. Anti-EU doesn´t want this at all - European animal protection laws. I do.

I hope I made my point clearer this time. 

This doesn´t mean that all is working well in EU. It isn´t. But the solution is to make it better, not to destroy it.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

So they tightened up their candidate selection and this happened. I'd be laughing my socks off if it wasn't so insulting.Ukip EU elections poster boy Andre Lampitt suspended after racist tweets come to light - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Tails and Trails, don't even bother trying to justify why you vote for them, it's not washing with me one tiny bit. My vote is between me and the voting box, not even my husband knows so I'm never going to share it online!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Isn't it baffling?

Tails and Trails started a thread yesterday asking Admin to close her account as other things are more pressing than this forum, then starts this particular thread.

Methinks somebody wants to go out with a bang or doesn't want to go at all and was merely looking for a response to thread no. 1.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Sweety said:


> Isn't it baffling?
> 
> Tails and Trails started a thread yesterday asking Admin to close her account as other things are more pressing than this forum, then starts this particular thread.
> 
> Methinks somebody wants to go out with a bang or doesn't want to go at all and was merely looking for a response to thread no. 1.











Methinks it's because they're Attention Seeking.

On the other hand I could be completely wrong of course and they're simply Seeking Attention.
:001_smile:


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> And another thing. For a man who intensely dislikes Europe and Europeans he proved himself to be quite the dealer of double standards by marrying a German. :laugh:
> 
> Furthermore, it's overpoweringly self evident that you're quite the little expert on all things UKIP and the subject of politics in general and yet here you are asserting your ideals on a Pet Forum.:thumbsup:
> 
> ...


there is no double standard, you are confusing disliking the EU for disliking europe

the rest of your post has no relevance, as you havent said anything about the actual topic

surely if you have any cogent, coherent, and reasoned arguments against what I actually said in my post to which you refer to, you would be posting them instead?

you have lost your usual friendly polite cool there, Mr Zaros


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Sweety said:


> Isn't it baffling?
> 
> Tails and Trails started a thread yesterday asking Admin to close her account as other things are more pressing than this forum, then starts this particular thread.
> 
> Methinks somebody wants to go out with a bang or doesn't want to go at all and was merely looking for a response to thread no. 1.


I have no idea why anyone wants to close an account? Willpower? Just stop posting is a less bothersome way to do it that saves the (unpaid) admins the problem.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> you have lost your usual friendly polite cool there, Mr Zaros


Haven't you heard, Politics is a dirty business.

And as for not responding to your endless drivel, the truth is out regardless.

Past and previous associations with old ideas leave an indelible mark on a man.

For life.:yesnod:


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

Gotta love UKIP - they've got my vote in both this European election AND the general election next year. I would love to know, of all the people who slam them, how many have actually been foreigners living abroad in another European country?

Reason I ask is because I have (in both France and Spain when we were all "European") and if the laws that we apply here i.e come and go freely, access to benefits, access to social housing, immediate entitlement to work, entitlement to use the NHS etc are EU laws then I would love to know why we seem to be the only country that allows it.

Based on my experience and the hoops that I had to jump through (in both France and Spain and IMHO rightly so) to be able to live and work there and access healthcare it seems to me that we are the ONLY COUNTRY completely pussy whipped by Europe, the others seem to have at least some regulation, tracking of foreign nationals and some sense of pride.

Example: I am tri lingual and speak English French and Spanish fluently. When I lived in France I had to apply for a residents permit (despite being "European") and to get it I had to give my fingerprints, a DNA sample, be registered on a national foreigners database and prove that I was solvent either by means of a work contract or independent means from my home country. When i fell pregnant (by my ex-partner who was French) he had to provide a "Certificate de Concubinage" basically stating that I lived with him and he was responsible for financially supporting me if I was no longer able to work and had no independent means.

I was only entitled to healthcare because my partner was French (he had to swear an affidavit to the fact that I was his partner) and I was pregnant with his baby (he had to legally recognise the baby as his prior to the birth before I went to hospital).

In Spain you have to have a Foreigner's ID Number (NIE) which to obtain you have to register with the National Police so putting yourself on a National database, having provided photocopies of your passport and birth certificate etc. A foreigner cannot buy a house or a car without this number, nor register with a local doctor. I worked as a teacher in Spain, teaching French in the local school and teaching English, Spanish and French privately. I still have the letter from the Spanish social security saying that I am entitled to 12 days unemployment pay - 1 day per month that I worked and paid tax and IMHO RIGHTLY BLOODY SO. 

I never experienced any type of prejudice because i was foreign - on the contrary in fact, HOWEVER, whenever I moaned or complained about a rule or regulation saying " Well in England.......blah blah blah " I would be met with a blank stare and they would say "Maybe.... but this is France/Spain madam".

I am not against immigration. IMO UKIP is not against immigration. It's the "Open door" policy that's the problem and the total lack of tracking of foreign 
nationals in this country that's the problem along with the erosion of our national identity. In my experience it doesn't happen elsewhere so why should it happen here?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Isn't it baffling?
> 
> Tails and Trails started a thread yesterday asking Admin to close her account as other things are more pressing than this forum, then starts this particular thread.
> 
> Methinks somebody wants to go out with a bang or doesn't want to go at all and was merely looking for a response to thread no. 1.


HIM.

Indeed I did ask that.
And I do have that in hand actually.

So wrong there 

I have no idea why you are posting this? Or how indeed it has anything to do the the topic? Does this mean I have made a proven argument you have no counter argument to then? 
Logic would tell one this must be so, otherwise you would only be making comments relating to the subject?

Also, why is required to make personal comments?
I shall not make personal comments about yourself, as it is just a discussion, I dont need to when i have strong arguments about the topic itself, and just because you have a different view to me about something, so why would i wish to be unfriendly to someone I dont know and whom has never done anything to me???? Makes no sense?

So I will bid you goodnight, unless you have an interesting post on the actual topic itself?
Take care, thank you for contributing, and i may see you again in a couple of months when my arrangement in hand with the moderator and some other business I have outstanding on here are finalised.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

MollySmith said:


> I have no idea why anyone wants to close an account? Willpower? Just stop posting is a less bothersome way to do it that saves the (unpaid) admins the problem.


You are correct. Willpower. As i already explained openly and clearly on the post where i asked. you can read it for yourself if you like
There is no issue with the admin. They are fine with the situation actually. 
There is no issue with anyone here or this forum at all, in fact, it has nothing to do with anyone on here, it is just about me for my own reasons 
If other people wish to imagineer issues where none exist, then whom am I to stand in there way 

who are you?
and do you have any thoughts or views on the upcoming European election


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Tails and Trails said:


> HIM.
> 
> Indeed I did ask that.
> And I do have that in hand actually.
> ...


I am never unfriendly, but I do become tired of people who seem to have endless time and energy to invest in trying to force others to abandon their own beliefs and invest in those of someone else.

I do have an extremely strong opinion on this subject but, unlike you, I do not feel the need to air it publicly or attempt to force it upon others.

I'm relieved to hear your removing yourself from the forum is "in hand". That must be so tiring for you on top of sounding off about your political views.

This is my point and it is not personal. Political views and stances are personal. I would never tell you that you're wrong to vote or support UKIP. That is absolutely your choice. You have no right to preach to others about how they should vote.

If you think that's unreasonable, then I'm an unreasonable person. I can live very easily with what your opinion is of me because I'm quite at ease with who I am. I wish you the same.

Good luck to you whatever your plans are and whatever your reason is for needing to be removed from this forum. Had that been me, I would have logged out and not come back, but I don't question why you have to be more radical in the way you deal with things.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Haven't you heard, Politics is a dirty business.
> 
> And as for not responding to your endless drivel, the truth is out regardless.
> 
> ...


I cant speak for your old ideas. Have no idea of the relevance

And if the truth is out there enough as you say for neutralizing endless drivel, then he aint doing his job properly, if he aint got nothing to say


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Oh ......... you're still here?


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> I am never unfriendly,
> 
> but I do become tired of people who seem to have endless time and energy to invest in trying to force others to abandon their own beliefs and invest in those of someone else.
> *
> ...


*

Im not you, I am? It was quite straightforward, everyone else understood it. You can read for yourself if unsure? There was no big issue or mystery or radical plan (that bit made me giggle )

No less confused having read this post now. What relevance does any of this have to the discussion about the european election? And if you have no interest in sharing your views on the subject of the thread, why are on here complaining about me for doing so, and spending so much time writing personal comments about someone that hasnt had any concern with you?

Are you sure its not just because you dont like my point of view, and that annoys you?

Chill - its only a discussion *


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Oh ......... you're still here?


is that a comment on the common agriculture policy?


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## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Zaros said:


> Didn't UKIP ban BNP members from joining their party.:yesnod:
> 
> Now, perhaps I'm missing something here but why would UKIP find it necessary to ban BNP if their policies weren't attractive to them in the first place. :confused1:
> 
> Oh I know because BNP are up front about their policies. :laugh:


How is it racist to have conditions on entry to this country?
So USA and Australia are racist then.

If you wanted to bring a country down you would allow unskilled people into the country in an uncontrolled manner, leading to lack of jobs for the young & overstretched resources (NHS etc).
If you want to build a successful country you would try to let in mainly skilled workers (see USA/Oz model again).

BNP have seen the success of UKIP and want to jump on the bandwagon of the only party who intends to do any kind of capping of immigration obviously.


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## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Zaros said:


> And another thing. * For a man who intensely dislikes Europe and Europeans he proved himself to be quite the dealer of double standards by marrying a German*. :laugh:
> 
> Now, why don't you be quiet and go and listen to yourself. :001_smile:


Except he doesn't dislike Europe and Europeans evidently, since he married one!  
Wanting to control who comes into the country is not racism.

Wow, this 'racist' propoganda has worked like a charm on some folk. I think it's a childish philosophy at times.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Jensams said:


> Except he doesn't dislike Europe and Europeans
> Wanting to control who comes into the country is not racism.


And nor did Adolf Hitler. A man who was a good nationalist but a very poor European and proved that to everyone's cost.

Farage constantly whines about Europe and he constantly whines about Europeans and how they come over to England to take jobs and homes and public services that rightly belong to the British people.

Tell me what isn't racist about that.

Immigration is all about racism. This world belongs to everyone.

You, me and whether you like it or not, your neighbours over in France, Portugal,Spain, Germany, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Latvia, Belarus, Ukraine etc etc etc.

We are all equals. It's only people such as the likes of Farage and his ilk who believe they are more equal than others.

You and this obsessive Tails and Trails obviously believe you can indoctrinate me or others with your blinkered views when in your complete and utter ignorance you fail to realise that if you remove them you'll find there's a lot more to this world than you've been lead to believe.

Now I gave my opinion and you gave yours in support of your fellow comrade in arms and that should have sufficed.

But folks like you are never satisfied because you take it personally and insist to ram it down the throats of other people as if their ideas are criminally wrong.

I suggest you take your argument onto the street, if you can find anyone willing to listen to your monotonous tones, instead of attempting to brow beat folks on a family forum which is no place for politics.

Good day.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Zaros said:


> And nor did Adolf Hitler. A man who was a good nationalist but a very poor European and proved that to everyone's cost.
> 
> Farage constantly whines about Europe and he constantly whines about Europeans and how they come over to England to take jobs and homes and public services that rightly belong to the British people.
> 
> ...


But isnt this just more of the same, Mr Zoros?

It is not _us_ that are posting in such a hot and bothered way. When anyone during _any_ discussion just ends up only posting insults about others or trying to come up with reasons why a discussion shouldn't exist, everyone knows that is in lieu of actual argument

Mr Zoros, you are a nice man and very popular on this forum, its not like you to be so unpleasant. You can throw in hitler, yet most british people would just think that over the top. You can shout racism as many times as you like, even though its British people of different races that are unhappy, and that the complaint is about too much immigration from white countries. And if a large proportion of society are worried about not enough space in the country, in schools, in the debt of the country, in hospitals, roads, services, GP's etc, you can also call that racism as many times as you like, but no one will take that seriously either. Some would be deeply offended at being called racists over this. My black brother in law says this all the time. Is he racist?

The truth is my friend, this is only about a difference in political opinion. You have one political opinion, we have another. And you are just annoyed as we aren't convinced by what you say, so that annoyance has got the better of you so you are just trying to shut people down by accusing them of racism, obsessiveness, etc, and by telling them why they don't have the right to express themselves .....you know full well there is no custom about this being a family forum that doesn't discuss politics 
(be consistent and tell Janice that next time she starts another political thread )
So who is trying to force their opinions onto others here?

Take it easy my friend, try and keep it friendly. Your insults about me I am not concerned about, and are a waste of your energy, as they arent achieving what you intend. I'm more concerned about you maintaining your usual respectful, friendly and reasoned demeanor. If you feel as strongly about this issue as we do, wouldnt you be better off just sticking to the arguments and explaining what you mean? For example, how exactly does any talk about immigration automatically equal racism and therefore all these people are racists?? For example, what about the question Jensams _asked you_ - does this mean Australia and America are racist as they have restrictions upon immigration (eg points system)? What about New Zealand?

As it happens, I agree with you, I also believe the world belongs to everyone and that ideally we shouldnt have immigration and we should all be planetary citizens a'la Star Trek. However, not until we have a world run by the people for the benefit of humanity and the environment, not one whereby large vested interests of a few individuals that run large corporations and manipulate governments and international organizations like the EU to fix all the rules and the system to suit them before all else, so we end up with a globalised economy that destroys communities, the planet, and the living conditions of people, I will vote against that. If the EU spent its time along with other countries getting rid of this ridiculous credit system, preventing the destruction of habitats and pollution thru excessive production and transportation, and built a system whereby appalling poor countries are enabled so their people dont have to travel to richer countries so those richer countries also end up getting poorer, then I would support an organisation like an EU and a free planetary citizenship movement.
But they arent interested in that, they are just interested in a broken and corrupt system that exploits earth and its people, so, for the time being, and as a step along the way, I will quite happily vote for a party that wishes to simply re-assert self determination and democracy for the UK. I would never vote for the BNP, even though they have some parallel ideas to mine, as they have them for different reasons, and I despise racists. 
And I am just like Hitler, so are you! We are all very keen dog lovers. Maybe we stop stop loving dogs, on the basis that no one is allowed to have an interest in a policy or issue that is known that fascists and racists may also have an interest in?
_Or is it the case, after all, that it is possible for their to be more than ONE reason for believing in something? _

Take care and kind regards, no desire to make any personal comments about you _except _respects to yourself, and will just leave this post as a final reply for your consideration


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Tails and Trails said:


> However, not until we have a world run by the people for the benefit of humanity and the environment, not one whereby large vested interests of a few individuals that run large corporations and manipulate governments and international organizations like the EU to fix all the rules and the system to suit them before all else, so we end up with a globalised economy that destroys communities, the planet, and the living conditions of people, I will vote against that. If the EU spent its time along with other countries getting rid of this ridiculous credit system, preventing the destruction of habitats and pollution thru excessive production and transportation, and built a system whereby appalling poor countries are enabled so their people dont have to travel to richer countries so those richer countries also end up getting poorer, then I would support an organisation like an EU and a free planetary citizenship movement.
> But they arent interested in that, they are just interested in a broken and corrupt system that exploits earth and its people, so, for the time being, and as a step along the way, I will quite happily vote for a party that wishes to simply re-assert self determination and democracy for the UK.


If you genuinely want these things then why are you voting for Ukip? They are anti-environmentalists, they don't even believe in climate science, they are pro fracking anti green energy. CAP is the biggest EU scandal & yet Ukip support it . This in itself proves they do not want a fair society for all, Ukip is a party to serve the rich.

This is an interesting read. 'Why 73% of UKIP supporters should actually vote GREEN':thumbsup:

Why 73% of UKIP supporters should actually vote Green

heres a snippet from the link >.

_ The Green Party favours a referendum on the EU because they are opposed to the extremely undemocratic way the EU is currently structured, as well as the unsustainable neoclassical economic ideology that the EU actively promotes. The Green party would prefer to see the EU reformed from within to make it more democratic and more accountable. They would also like to ditch the ideological obsession with the neoclassical economic orthodoxy and the ridiculous single currency experiment.

The Green party is committed to a referendum of the EU, but they have not decided which side of the debate they would side with. They want the referendum because they believe that the debate would trigger reform of the EU, however if major reforms are not forthcoming, it seems highly likely that the Greens would campaign for an EU exit, since the structures and objectives of the EU as currently constituted are fundamentally incompatible with the core Green values of democracy and sustainability _

,


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> If you genuinely want these things then why are you voting for Ukip? They are anti-environmentalists, they don't even believe in climate science, they are pro fracking anti green energy. CAP is the biggest EU scandal & yet Ukip support it . This in itself proves they do not want a fair society for all, Ukip is a party to serve the rich.
> 
> This is an interesting read. 'Why 73% of UKIP supporters should actually vote GREEN':thumbsup:
> 
> ...


*Thank you for that noushka. I might just vote for once in my life. If i do, it will be green.*


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi noushka 

thank you , that is a great question .quite a logical point you have made 

in an earlier post I said I'm happy to vote UKIP *just * for the euros. as they are the only ones that have guaranteed a referendum and are best placed to bust the present British mainstream system and once we got the referendum and e then. a PR system in Britain would vote green for general election 

I used to back greens for Eu and the other ideas as green policy used be completely eurosceptic and to leave. then they back tracked a bit to the position you quoted


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## Mr Gizmo (Jul 1, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> If you genuinely want these things then why are you voting for Ukip? They are anti-environmentalists, they don't even believe in climate science, they are pro fracking anti green energy. CAP is the biggest EU scandal & yet Ukip support it . This in itself proves they do not want a fair society for all, Ukip is a party to serve the rich.
> 
> This is an interesting read. 'Why 73% of UKIP supporters should actually vote GREEN':thumbsup:
> 
> ...


It's the highlighted and underlined reasons I don't tend to vote. 
I don't have a clue what those words mean. 
Try speaking in plain understandable words.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

It's not even immigration which is the main problem although like most of the UKIP propaganda it's one which is easily latched onto. The UKIP actually reminds me of a certain party in Scotland.. lots of propaganda, very little substance.

The reason immigrants actually get jobs is they work hard and are often prepared to do jobs others will not.

Jamie Oliver Praises European Immigrants Over Young 'Wet' British Workers

It's far easier to blame others when the problem is ourselves and what we feel is our "right". Why is it these immigrants can get these jobs when we always hear the cry "there aren't any jobs available" from the "natives"? I've known plenty of people who go to university, simply as they expect a high paid job at the end and simply will not accept anything which doesn't match their expectations. Nobody will say everyone is like this.. there are people who simply can't find jobs. That's always been the case. Immigrants taking them all isn't the reason but as stated, blaming them means people don't need to look at the real problem.

The other issue, not pushed as it's a harder sell is the welfare state. That needs sorting far more than general immigration. This needs sorting to prevent those coming to the country simply as the standard of living is comfortable even without a job. It also needs sorting so it forces "native" people to actually get out and get a job, even if it's a stepping stone to hopefully better things. Nobody can dispute the UK needs an effective welfare state to protect and support those who get dealt a bad hand in life. However it needs to be a system which encourages people to work and support themselves whenever possible. It shouldn't be a system where those who know it and how to play it can have an alternative lifestyle, often better than those who do work. Unfortunately as it stands, those who don't know the system and how to play it, the ones who deserve to be supported, often aren't.

Interesting article:
Thousands exit Germany for Bulgaria and Romania


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Goblin said:


> It's not even immigration which is the main problem although like most of the UKIP propaganda it's one which is easily latched onto. The UKIP actually reminds me of a certain party in Scotland.. lots of propaganda, very little substance.
> 
> The reason immigrants actually get jobs is they work hard and are often prepared to do jobs others will not.
> 
> ...


Crikey Goblin - there is something we agree on after all! 

There is also another side to immigration that those who are panicked by the propaganda never seem to realise - and that is that many Britons work in Europe. Not only that, but the immigration/emigration figures are almost equal:

EU migrants moving to UK balanced by Britons living abroad - FT.com

Perhaps those who are panicked by the UKIP porpaganda should think about all the European jobs Britons are taking away from people in their own countries!


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## ladydog (Feb 24, 2013)

Spellweaver said:


> Crikey Goblin - there is something we agree on after all!
> 
> There is also another side to immigration that those who are panicked by the propaganda never seem to realise - and that is that many Britons work in Europe. Not only that, but the immigration/emigration figures are almost equal:
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Nobody talks in the UK of the house crisis in France in the Dordogne region where locals are priced out of the market because some Brits are quite happy to pay over the odds. 
Secondly, as I mentioned in a previous thread, my husband has huge problems recruiting British workers because the hours are unsociable. He has no difficulties when it comes to immigrants wanting to work. 
People are free to vote for who they wish. Thanks to those who fought in wars not so long ago.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No one complains about the hoardes of British chavs in Spain and Portugal many of whom have never bothered to learn the local language. It's only when they come over here it's a problem


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Nicky10 said:


> No one complains about the hoardes of British chavs in Spain and Portugal many of whom have never bothered to learn the local language. It's only when they come over here it's a problem


Oh I dunno I've heard plenty of stories and complaints about the little Englander in places like Spain 
usually other brits embarrassed by them 
not to mention the holiday makers 
Things I have heard about since I was a kid in the eighties


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

ladydog said:


> Absolutely. Nobody talks in the UK of the house crisis in France in the Dordogne region where locals are priced out of the market because some Brits are quite happy to pay over the odds.
> Secondly, as I mentioned in a previous thread, my husband has huge problems recruiting British workers because the hours are unsociable. He has no difficulties when it comes to immigrants wanting to work.
> People are free to vote for who they wish. Thanks to those who fought in wars not so long ago.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Zaros said:


> And nor did Adolf Hitler. A man who was a good nationalist but a very poor European and proved that to everyone's cost.
> 
> Farage constantly whines about Europe and he constantly whines about Europeans and how they come over to England to take jobs and homes and public services that rightly belong to the British people.
> 
> ...


Being in the EU costs us a fortune and they are taking control of us, it isn't just a free market. 
I know we're all equals. That doesn't stop me having to have something to offer if I want to go live in USA or Oz.

UKIP *aren't stopping immigration* They are putting in a points system, and disallowing people coming to claim benefits, asking them to have health insurance etc.

Many immigrants to this country are European. We are European. We are the same race!

If you don't want to talk about politics on a public forum (see your last sentence), then why are you on this thread?
Oh, and your first sentence invoked Godwins law. LOL!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Tails and Trails said:


> Oh I dunno I've heard plenty of stories and complaints about the little Englander in places like Spain
> usually other brits embarrassed by them
> not to mention the holiday makers
> Things I have heard about since I was a kid in the eighties


But this isn't seen the same way as say Poles coming here and not learning the language or trying to integrate would be. I agree on uncontrolled immigration and I think if you move to another country you learn the language, or try to not everyone is good with languages and try to integrate. I don't have an issue with immigrants coming and working. Britain for the British tends to mean Britain for the white anglo-saxon types however, when Britain has never been a homogeneous white nation.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jensams said:


> UKIP *aren't stopping immigration* They are putting in a points system, and disallowing people coming to claim benefits, asking them to have health insurance etc.


UKIP *aren't doing anything at all about immigration because they are not the party in power in this country *and never will be.

Even if a number of their MPs win in the European elections and become Euro MPs, they will still not have the power to do anything about immigration. *That* will be down to the government of *this* couintry, not a Euro MP.

Don't forget Farage has been a Euro MP for ten years - so what influence has he had in Europe during that time? What has he done to forward the needs of this country in Europe? Sod all, judging by the way his followers have been whipped up into a frenzy about Europe and its bad effects on GB. So, judging by his past record, what is the point in re-electing him?


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## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Spellweaver said:


> UKIP *aren't doing anything at all about immigration because they are not the party in power in this country *and never will be.
> Even if a number of their MPs win in the European elections and become Euro MPs, they will still not have the power to do anything about immigration. *That* will be down to the government of *this* couintry, not a Euro MP.
> Don't forget Farage has been a Euro MP for ten years - so what influence has he had in Europe during that time? What has he done to forward the needs of this country in Europe? Sod all, judging by the way his followers have been whipped up into a frenzy about Europe and its bad effects on GB. So, judging by his past record, what is the point in re-electing him?


Their policy on immigration was what I was commenting on, not whether they are doing it now.

Farage at work as MEP in Europe. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nigel+farage+in+european+parliament+


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jensams said:


> Their policy on immigration was what I was commenting on, not whether they are doing it now.
> 
> Farage at work as MEP in Europe. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nigel+farage+in+european+parliament+


:lol: Followed your links - so basically all he's done is spout a lot of hot air. Oh, and thrown an egg at someone. But he's not really affected things one way or another, has he?

Or do you want to argue that he *has* affected things and that the Europe we have now is down to his influence? :eek6:

Whichever argument you choose, Farage does not com out of it well.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Well, I don't know who I will be voting for (Will be my first time voting as well) as I have yet to look at the other parties and their policies and get to understand them first before making a decision but I will not be voting UKIP.

I did at first but the more I read and read their policies, the more I began to see them as nothing but bnp with a nice smiley face in front of their campaign.

Everytime I ask people why they go for UKIP, the reply is always to do with foreigners. UKIP seem to brainwash people into thinking it's foreign people who have messed up our country and through pretending they will rid the problem (Like they are some vermin of a disease) they are doing well in trying to slither in through lies.

Foreign people are not the problem of Britain and far from it. I get tired of the comments 'Yeah, but, they take our jobs' Big fat fecking yawn I tell you.

They give more money to our economy than what they take out. That's a fact. They do jobs that English people don't want to. And if they do. Well, let's not blame them.

They want to increase military defence by, what, forty percent? Why for goodness sake.

Then there comes the whole argument 'But UKIP promises and we know this time they will stick to it'

Like all the other parties? Let's not forget it takes longer than a day to get a country running back on its feet.

I just don't want to be part of a country (Follow a party like UKIP) that is happy to put the blame on someone else, per usual.

Yes, we do have a issue with illegal immigrants but for goodness sake, we are not the only country with this issue. We definitely need to knuckle down on illegal immigrants and tighten our borders for sure. But not get rid of every foreigner for god sake.

No to UKIP from me.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> No one complains about the hoardes of British chavs in Spain and Portugal many of whom have never bothered to learn the local language. It's only when they come over here it's a problem


Look at China as an example. Isn't that the main place us Brits move to?

Nobody minds then.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It's quite scary really how easy it is to make intelligent, educated people fear outsiders coming in. I suppose it's nothing new people ran around mobbing foreigners during the great fire of London convinced it was a terrorist attack by the french or the dutch and many of the statements afterwards read like a comment on a daily mail article. I'd say it's the whole island mentality but well Germany isn't one.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> It's quite scary really how easy it is to make intelligent, educated people fear outsiders coming in. I suppose it's nothing new people ran around mobbing foreigners during the great fire of London convinced it was a terrorist attack by the french or the dutch and many of the statements afterwards read like a comment on a daily mail article. I'd say it's the whole island mentality but well Germany isn't one.


Put it this way, the more I see it and how many people hate (as you say) outsiders, I really do start to see us as a racist country, totally unaccepting of someone coming in and wanting to live a good life. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Sure, we have some who don't work and claim benefits but it's such a small amount, it really is not worth using as an argument point to it.

Isn't it just what we do though? Dump all our mess up on someone else and blame them.

Some comments off people who moan about foreign people, then say they're not racist, (Always get that but afterwards though) really does sound like some horrible 'white supremacy' ****.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> Put it this way, the more I see it and how many people hate (as you say) outsiders, I really do start to see us as a racist country, totally unaccepting of someone coming in and wanting to live a good life. There is nothing wrong with that at all. Sure, we have some who don't work and claim benefits but it's such a small amount, it really is not worth using as an argument point to it.
> 
> Isn't it just what we do though? Dump all our mess up on someone else and blame them.
> 
> Some comments off people who moan about foreign people, then say they're not racist, (Always get that but afterwards though) really does sound like some horrible 'white supremacy' ****.


I don't think everyone's horribly racist, some are of course and very vocal about it and this gives a false impression. But humans are deeply tribal it's one of our greatest strengths but it also makes us suspicious of anyone that's different. It especially rears it's head if the economy isn't doing well or there's something like a terrorist attack.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> I don't think everyone's horribly racist, some are of course and very vocal about it and this gives a false impression. But humans are deeply tribal it's one of our greatest strengths but it also makes us suspicious of anyone that's different. It especially rears it's head if the economy isn't doing well or there's something like a terrorist attack.


Well, of course not everybody.

A case of xenophobia? I do think a lot of it comes from people being brainwashed, a bit like propaganda?

When I was younger (The time a lot of Polish people started coming to Britain) I'd hear a lot of people moaning about the 'poles' and how rude they were. Well, I started to observe then and noticed it too. I then didn't like them like a lot of other people didn't.

Well, I grew up then and realised that I actually met more English people who are ruder than the Polish people I pass in my town and it was only a few who are rude, so I realised I just was copying what everyone else felt like, sort of like the sheep following the herd.

The media plays a big part in it, particularly the piece of shi* Daily Mail who lie through their back teeth and make criminals into saints and victims into devils. They can be terrible for that sort of thing. Look how many people are extremely fearful, prejudice and racist towards Muslims, etc. And only one percent are extreme fundamentalists. The media play a big part in cotinously portraying certain groups of people in a bad way.

It was like that case back in London (I think) where a group of religious people (I believe Muslims) were going round telling us that if we behaved the way we did in their country we'd be stoned to death for it. Yes, I was angry that they felt they had the right to say that as they should have respected our culture if being here as we would theirs if we were over there but I didn't immediately feel that all of them behaved in that way, etc. I read a lot of comments on newspaper sites and a lot of people were very hostile towards Muslims after that.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Blackcats said:


> Well, of course not everybody.
> 
> A case of xenophobia? I do think a lot of it comes from people being brainwashed, a bit like propaganda?
> 
> ...


Where I grew up it was Protestants or Catholics depending on whether you belonged to the orange or green tribe . Nobody I grew up with had seen the worst of the troubles and yet there was still that tension that was purely learned behaviour from older family members.

I think if we don't understand something or all we know about it is negative propaganda all Muslims/Catholics are terrorists, all foreigners are thieving scum coming to take our jobs then we're going to fear them. But if people just looked past the propaganda and met people within those groups they would change their minds.

Heck if two of our MPs who had spent literally decades hating each other and fighting with each other on everything could manage to become friends when they were forced to work together and realised the other wasn't so bad anyone can :lol:


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## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

And still people are confusing immigration rules with racism & 'sending all foreigners back'. Be careful about libel by linking to facts that back up what you're claiming.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/459781899767263233


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

You do understand that they're obliged by law to have non-whites in the party yes? There's even black and asian people in the bnp, very few of course, who they like to trot out at any accusation of racism. It just stinks of I'm not racist, I have black friends


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Tails and Trails said:


> Hi noushka
> 
> thank you , that is a great question .quite a logical point you have made
> 
> ...


But voting in more rubbish ukip MEP's isn't going to achieve a referendum - only the party in power back home could do that. So by voting in ukip any dangerous legislation could slip through if there aren't enough ethical MEP's to prevent that happening. Its not only environmental & animal welfare issues that could suffer, our NHS & even our democracy is at grave risk if the EU sign up to the transatlantic trade agreement (TTIP) . We will be governed by powerful corporations & there wont be a thing we can do about it.

The Greens are the only party strongly opposed to this VERY dangerous deal.

âManaging Transparencyâ | George Monbiot

Green party leaks confidential TTIP paper | EurActiv

The Greens would rather stay in Europe & fight to improve things from within - but because they believe in democracy they would offer a referendum & let the public decide.



Mr Gizmo said:


> It's the highlighted and underlined reasons I don't tend to vote.
> I don't have a clue what those words mean.
> Try speaking in plain understandable words.


This spells out their policies really simply:thumbsup: Green Party | Policies



JANICE199 said:


> *Thank you for that noushka. I might just vote for once in my life. If i do, it will be green.*


Well this is the best thing ive seen this morning! Nice one Janice! 

.


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## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

> noushka05 said:
> 
> 
> > But voting in more rubbish ukip MEP's isn't going to achieve a referendum - only the party in power back home could do that.
> ...


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2014)

I have had my polling card but no canvassing yet. I honestly don't know who to vote for, I just know I won't be voting conservatives (don't like them, never have).


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> > i realise that
> >
> > the point is if UKIP kick the ass of the political establishment that has been ignoring the people for years over the EU, then the message to the other parties for british elections is they better re-think their approach to giving the people a referendum.
> >
> ...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Tails and Trails said:


> Up to now its been, what's them then?
> 
> but im inspired by current events to finally cast a vote in them
> 
> these current crop of politicians need a good kicking...........*just* for the euro elections, im voting UKIP


 For a ukip card carrying member. I say yay


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

grumpy goby said:


> Voting Green
> 
> Re UKIP apart from being racist, and having a pretty shoddy record with regards to expenses themselves (300k unexplained expenses plus 60k allowance as MEP which Farage has refused to disclose on its expenditure, into his private account) - there is also this:


So tell me about the conservatives, you can start with Patrick mercer,


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Tails and Trails said:
> 
> 
> > What makes you think that the UKIP candidates will do anything in Europe other than what they have been doing for the last ten years? And if you are so dissatisfied with what they have been doing on Europe over the last ten years (and you must be, if you think the establishment has been ignoring the people for years) then why vote them back in?
> ...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Ps. I'm voting ukip


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2014)

DT said:


> Ps. I'm voting ukip


I am leaning more to voting UKip I think we need a new party to take power for a while instead of Labour and Conservatives (Tories) always being in power.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DT said:


> Ukip the third ? Then why are the main two trying to discredit them? And as for lib dems! Who are they?


They are trying to discredit them just like they try to discredit the lib dems and each other. It's what political parties do these days.

I agree with you about the lib dems - I reckon they have completely shot themselves in the foot after Clegg threw his prinicples out the door and lay down and played lap dog to David Cameron. I do think UKIP will become the third party rather than the lib-dems.

Seriously though DT - with the way our system works now, even if UKIP do get a sizeable portion of the vote, that won't translate into seats - we've seen that happen many times in the past with the "third" party; and it will continue happening until such times as we have a proportional representation voting system. And as the present system suits the party in power (whichever that party is) I can't see that happening in our lifetime.

Are you standing in the European elections btw hun? (Just being nosy!  )


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> They are trying to discredit them just like they try to discredit the lib dems and each other. It's what political parties do these days.
> 
> I agree with you about the lib dems - I reckon they have completely shot themselves in the foot after Clegg threw his prinicples out the door and lay down and played lap dog to David Cameron. I do think UKIP will become the third party rather than the lib-dems.
> 
> ...


LOL

If DT was a ukip MEP, im pretty sure she would go against the party line on issues like the illegal ivory trade - being the maverick that she is!


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jensams said:


> And still people are confusing immigration rules with racism & 'sending all foreigners back'. Be careful about libel by linking to facts that back up what you're claiming.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/459781899767263233


Why do you presume that people who think UKIP are racist are confusing racism with immigration?

They are most likely thinking UKIP are racist because of things like this:

_"Ukip could be haemorrhaging candidates before the May elections with yet more derogatory and offensive comments revealed from its prospective councillors.

One Enfield council candidate, William Henwood, suggested the comedian Lenny Henry leave Britain to live in a "black country"

He was responding Twitter to comments from Henry that there were not enough ethnic minority faces on the BBC.

lenny henry
William Henwood suggested the comedian Lenny Henry leave Britain

The Ukip candidate tweeted in response: "He should emigrate to a black country. He does not have to live with whites.""_
Ukip Candidate William Henwood Says Lenny Henry Should Live In A 'Black Country'

and this:

_"Ukip county councillor Peter Lagoda's controversial remarks at a Cambridgeshire fire station were "racist, derogatory and discriminatory," an independent review has found.

One of the firefighters at Wisbech fire station lodged a complaint over Lagoda's remarks, as he admitted to describing his sister to the firefighters as a "w*g" and spoke about his "Mongol" relatives having children with "****** eyes".

"Yes, my cousin married Mongols and now all their little children are ever so cute and they have ****** eyes," Lagoda said in a telephone interview with HuffPost UK in February."_
Ukip Councillor Peter Lagoda's Fire Station Remarks Were 'Racist', Review Finds

and this:

_"Sue Bowen was selected and nominated to stand for UKIP in the Tintagel ward of Cornwall Council. However, it came to light that as well as having been a member of Cornish independence party Mebyon Kernow, she had also once been a paid up member of the British National Party. UKIP has now withdrawn its support for her candidacy but she will still be on the ballot paper as it is too late to withdraw."_
UKIP's Racist and Criminal Candidates are Exposed « Richard Willis's Blog

And it's not just the racism of UKIP MPs that sensible people are worried about - they are discriminatory in other areas too.

Areas such as religion:

_"Up in Rotherham, South Yorkshire, Caven Vines has been selected and nominated to stand in the Rawmarsh ward of Rotherham Council. Vines used to work closely with the BNP's Rotherham organiser in a campaign group called Council Watch. He wrote a semi-literate blog when standing for re-election in 2009: "If are a Muslim in Britain you can almost do what you want with the good old Labour Governments blessing. Muslims go to war warring the same cloths as ordinary people who they hide behind they cover their faces, they hide behind women and children they set up rocket launches in school yards they use children to push wheel barrows into crowds and soldiers then detonate it killing innocent people SO WHO ARE THE COWARDS. Its about time the Government and the Police stopped pandering to these so called British Muslims and other foreign nationals". To date UKIP is standing by Vines!"_
UKIP's Racist and Criminal Candidates are Exposed « Richard Willis's Blog

_"Another candidate in trouble is in Crowborough, East Susssex, who has been caught out making appallingly offensive remarks about the Holocaust. Anne-Marie Crampton reportedly wrote, "Holocaust means a sacrifice by fire. Only the Zionists could sacrifice their own in the gas chambers. The Second World Wide War was engineered by the Zionist Jews and financed by the banksters to make the general public all over the world feel so guilty and outraged by the Holocaust that a treaty would be signed to create the State of Israel as we know it today." _

_In May 2012 UKIP Stocksbridge Town Councillor and former PPC, Grant French, was exposed as having some nasty anti-semitic and homophobic views"_
UKIP's Racist and Criminal Candidates are Exposed « Richard Willis's Blog

and areas such as equality:

_"Just today David Nixon, the candidate in Stone Rural ward in Stafforshire, has been found to be distributing a highly misleading and homophobic leaflet as part of his election campaign._
http://richardwillisuk.wordpress.com/2013/04/26/ukips-racist-and-criminal-candidates-are-exposed/

and areas such as dishonesty:

_UKIP MEP Tom Wise (elected in 2004) was jailed for two years for fiddling his expenses in the European Parliament; UKIP MEP Ashley Mote (elected in 2004) was jailed for fiddling benefits; and in 2012 UKIP MEPs Derek Clark and Graham Booth were forced to repay expenses they had wrongly claimed."_[/I]
UKIP's Racist and Criminal Candidates are Exposed « Richard Willis's Blog

Plenty of reason not to vote UKIP there, I reckon. And that's even without considering their stance on hunting, blood sports conservation etc etc, which Noushka has already posted about so well.


----------



## Tails and Trails (Jan 9, 2014)

Spellweaver said:


> Tails and Trails said:
> 
> 
> > What makes you think that the UKIP candidates will do anything in Europe other than what they have been doing for the last ten years? And if you are so dissatisfied with what they have been doing on Europe over the last ten years (and you must be, if you think the establishment has been ignoring the people for years) then why vote them back in?
> ...


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The current Government must think we want the EU referendum big time

why?

well, they will hold one IF they win the next election, so *"vote tory to get the EU referendum"* is a vote winner...

and everyone reckons Cameron's a plank......think about it


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Tails and Trails said:


> As regards your first paragraph, which you have stated several times.
> Unlike the first two answers, this is not an issue of my political motivations and opinions, this is simply an issue in regards to the procedures of the European parliament, in regards to all MEP's.
> 
> Firstly, UKIP are a minority party in an assembly whereby the several political grouping are pro-EU, and do not favour any form of Euro wide legislation to enact an in-out referendum. Therefore, if UKIP _*were able*_ to introduce such a Bill of the European Parliament, they would re-soundly loose.
> ...


My point exactly. Thank you for reiterating it. 



Tails and Trails said:


> You may now say why vote for them anyway, if the system does not even mean they can attempt to introduce a vote in the EuroParl for referendums? That is a good point. However, that is also an argument for note voting; be it the EuroParl or Westminster. For example, one could argue, why vote Dennis Skinner. He has spent 40 years in parliament, and he still hasnt managed to introduce a socialist state under Labour or Tory. Or why vote for Caroline Lucas, she has spent nearly 5 years in parliament, and how many Green governance laws has she managed? Or why vote Green or UKIP or even Lid Dem in the UK election? Even if they get a good percentage of the national popular vote, under the first past the post system, they still only end up with a handful of MP's, so the system is rigged to be two party.
> But the answer to that from any supporters of any smaller parties is thus: democracy is still about getting all the views and philosophies heard and represented, and to do that, we just operate when and how we can within the present system by making our voices heard due to our voting records and our speeches in parliament and thoughout the land as MP's or MEP's.


I have no quarrel with this - I will defend to the utmost an individual's right to vote exactly how they want to vote. Yet at the same time, I will pose questions to individuals if I think that their thinking is skewed - not because I think that everyone should feel as I do, but because I too have a valid argument for them to consider.

For example, if someone said, as you have done, that they are voting for a party because of only one if their policies, I would want to point out that this is inadvertantly adding credence to ther rest of their policies. I appreciate that in the area in which you are applying your vote, you agree with UKIPs policies. But you can't just divide things up like this; you have to look at the whole picture. You might want to give power to someone who encapuslates your views on one subject - but you would also be giving them political credence and hence potential power over other areas, ares where you would not agree with their policies at all.

I think that it would be extremely difficult for anyone to find a party that encapsulated all of their views exactly. However, I would hope that most people would take a look at all the policies of any party and, before deciding whether or not to vote for them, weigh up which party encapsulates more of their views than any other.

I personally could never vote for a party with policies that were racist, homophobic, and derogatory to wildlife, no matter how right I thought their policies were on one subject. For me, that balance would be very skewed and very short-sighted indeed.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Colliebarmy said:


> The current Government must think we want the EU referendum big time
> 
> why?
> 
> ...


Hey, for once you bring up a very interesting point.

Cameron and the Tories are indeed the only party who have said that they will hold a referendum on whether or not to stay in Europe - and yet on the TV this mornng I heard that they are bottom in the polls for the Euro elections, whilst UKIP are a the top. Why is that, do you think?

Why do people believe Farage and the other UKIP candidates will do anything at all in Europe when they have not been able to do anything during the last 10 years? (my answer - tUKIP are, comparatively, a "new" party and most people think that they will be a breath of fresh air. The more cynical of us would point to the fact that people once thought this of the lib-dems, and look what happened there)

Why aren't people who want a referendum on Europe voting Tory in their droves? (my answer - who trusts Cameon these days?)


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spellweaver said:


> Hey, for once you bring up a very interesting point.
> 
> Cameron and the Tories are indeed the only party who have said that they will hold a referendum on whether or not to stay in Europe - and yet on the TV this mornng I heard that they are bottom in the polls for the Euro elections, whilst UKIP are a the top. Why is that, do you think?


1. Cos Cameron will pull a flanker IF they hold a EU vote, just like Blair

2. whaddya mean "for once"?.....i have feelings!


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

I think UKIP might be seen as anti-EU so worth voting INTO the Euro-trough whereas the Tories, Libs and Labour all wanna get into bed with Europe


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Get out of the EU, stop all immigration, anyone without a UK passport and no job can be sent back from where they came

that would reduce the benefits bill and create a few million jobs

Australia doesnt stand it, why should the UK?

Introduce a visa system for all incoming travellers, work, study or holiday, and a £1000 bond to be paid - in cash - repaid when they leave, also proper medical insurance to reduce the cost on the NHS


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Jensams said:


> your first sentence invoked Godwins law!


You should read this thread in its entirety.

Mr Hitler was mentioned much earlier than the post you quoted.:001_smile:

Slams door in canvasser's face.

Canvasser continues to remonstrate on the doorstep.

Is forced to call the police.....


----------



## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Zaros said:


> You should read this thread in its entirety.
> 
> Mr Hitler was mentioned much earlier than the post you quoted.:001_smile:
> 
> ...


Then you weren't the only anti Ukipper who invoked Godwin's law were you? I never said you were though did I? 

I've made 3 very short posts on this thread pages & pages ago!  I've never voted Ukip, let alone canvassed for them. - I'm pointing out the weirdness of some people's thought processes when it comes to PC related matters. eg. "Farage detests Europeans and he's married to one, what a hypocrite".  

btw, spellweaver, shall we talk about individuals from the other parties too?, I KNOW we can sink much lower than he said this/she said that. I mean real gutter stuff.

Ivory trade - Ukip vote against the EU on everything, to stop them having power over anything. That's their M.O.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Jensams said:


> BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!










*ARE YOU GOING TO P155 OFF QUIETLY OR ARE YOU COMING WITH US NOISILY?*​:laugh:


----------



## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/460873978761207808
Welcome to the People's Army Zaros. You've managed to turn me from Green to Ukip with all this lovely debating & research. xxx


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I think the second comment in that link is more factual....

Peoples army? naaaa

Barmy army is much more truthful


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Jensams said:


> Then you weren't the only anti Ukipper who invoked Godwin's law were you? I never said you were though did I?
> 
> I've made 3 very short posts on this thread pages & pages ago!  I've never voted Ukip, let alone canvassed for them. - I'm pointing out the weirdness of some people's thought processes when it comes to PC related matters. eg. "Farage detests Europeans and he's married to one, what a hypocrite".
> 
> ...


Perhaps you can answer me why UKIP want to withdraw from the EU but not from the common agriculture policy? This cash for grouse scandal shows how Britain has become a plutocrats' paradise | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

They want to keep CAP payments while playing politics with the lives on endangered species Ukip stand for everything I hate in this selfish world.

.

.

.

.


----------



## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

noushka05, since you asked me, I googled and apparently they would phase out the CAP.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jensams said:


> btw, spellweaver, shall we talk about individuals from the other parties too?, I KNOW we can sink much lower than he said this/she said that. I mean real gutter stuff.


You are now being silly. You stated that people were only saying that UKIP were racist bacause they were confusing racism with controlling immigration.

I said you were wrong, and that there were other, valid, reasons for people to regard UKIP as a racist party. I quoted the several pieces I did to point out to you that people were most likely thinking of UKIP as a racist party because of the actions of many of their candidates, and NOT because of their stance on immigration. (and I could have quoted you a lot more - I didn't even mention bongo-bongo land, or the fact that the founder of UKIP has stated Farage is racist!)

If your only recourse to that is the above quote, then sorry but you prove my argument by default.

People think UKIP are racist because of the actions and remarks of many of their candidates, and not because of their stance on immigration.



Jensams said:


> Whatsup guys? Daren't argue with Colliebarmy?


:lol: When you've been around on this forum a little longer you'll realise why that remark is funny :lol:


----------



## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> You are now being silly. You stated that people were only saying that UKIP were racist bacause they were confusing racism with controlling immigration.
> 
> I said you were wrong, and that there were other, valid, reasons for people to regard UKIP as a racist party. I quoted the several peices I did to point out to you that people were most likely thinking of UKIP as a racist party because of the actions of many of their candidates, and NOT because of their stance on immigration. (and I could have quoted you a lot more - I didn't even mention bongo-bongo land, or the fact that the founder of UKIP has stated Farage is racist!)
> 
> ...


I'm not a racist! but I hope i'm a realist


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

DT said:


> I'm not a racist! but I hope i'm a realist


I did say "many", not "all".

I know you're not a racist Sue


----------



## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Spellweaver said:


> You are now being silly. You stated that people were only saying that UKIP were racist bacause they were confusing racism with controlling immigration.
> 
> I said you were wrong, and that there were other, valid, reasons for people to regard UKIP as a racist party. I quoted the several pieces I did to point out to you that people were most likely thinking of UKIP as a racist party because of the actions of many of their candidates, and NOT because of their stance on immigration. (and I could have quoted you a lot more - I didn't even mention bongo-bongo land, or the fact that the founder of UKIP has stated Farage is racist!)
> 
> ...


It was their stance on immigration and the fact Farage had a German wife that I commented on. I've stated that I don't think their policies are racist. I never said there are no racist individuals in the party (or kicked out of the party as in your list), as I wouldn't know anything about individual members, why should I? I'm not a Ukip voter. I've read some of their policies and some of them sound like common sense. Being the only party to talk about limiting immigration, it will attract people who want that for other reasons. Looks like these people are sacked when found out.



Spellweaver said:


> I did say "many", not "all".
> 
> I know you're not a racist Sue


But a member of a racist party in your opinion.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Yes... UKIP is an awesome party to vote for :sosp:










Ohh I can't wait until they are in power -insert extreme sarcasm here-


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

What - the actual - f*** did I just read....!?


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## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Thats not from the same flyer that described womens real work as baby rearing and breast feeding, anything else is "inconsequential froth" is it??


----------



## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Please can you include the author of the above images. 
The first one about same sex marriage says 'vote Independant' as well as Ukip. The second image I've searched the net for and can't find at all.



Anyone could have written them. Please leave the source or they mean nothing.


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## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> Thats not from the same flyer that described womens real work as baby rearing and breast feeding, anything else is "inconsequential froth" is it??


Who the actual f**k wrote that one?

UKIP?

Because that really would make people want to vote more.  Completely sexist and they may as well say in big, bold letters

'Women belong working at home, bearing children and cleaning after the working man'


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> Who the actual f**k wrote that one?
> 
> UKIP?
> 
> ...


UKIP candidate David Griffiths - standing for Islington. I believe now deselected following this flyer, they forever seem to be weedling out these nutballs from the party. They just seem to be a magnet for them.


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Jensams said:


> Please can you include the author of the above images.
> The first one about same sex marriage says 'vote Independant' as well as Ukip. The second image I've searched the net for and can't find at all.
> 
> Anyone could have written them. Please leave the source or they mean nothing.


UKIP candidate deselected over 'nutty' election flyer - Get West London

I did find the whole flyer... I will hunt it out. http://ow.ly/d/24EQ Clearly points him towards UKIP as they link to the party website. Also, he (griffiths) was standing for the UKIP party.

The same guy who thinks some people are born predesposed to be slaves. Classy.

One can only assume it is true enough for him to be deselected to stand over it ^^


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> Thats not from the same flyer that described womens real work as baby rearing and breast feeding, anything else is "inconsequential froth" is it??


No it's not on the same flyer, this is a whole brand new gem 



Jensams said:


> Please can you include the author of the above images.
> The first one about same sex marriage says 'vote Independant' as well as Ukip. The second image I've searched the net for and can't find at all.
> 
> Anyone could have written them. Please leave the source or they mean nothing.


Source? A UKIP candidate handing these out on the street my dear....It's not exactly unknown that the vast majority of UKIP's members are homophobic now is it?


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> No it's not on the same flyer, this is a whole brand new gem
> 
> Source? A UKIP candidate handing these out on the street my dear....It's not exactly unknown that the vast majority of UKIP's members are homophobic now is it?


Didn't one of them say that the cause of floods were because of homosexuality and God was angry.

That just gives more and more reason why I shouldn't vote for these clowns.


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Blackcats said:


> Didn't one of them say that the cause of floods were because of homosexuality and God was angry.
> 
> That just gives more and more reason why I shouldn't vote for these clowns.


Google it, you will find plenty :laugh: Its full of fruitloops, not a week goes by without one exposing themself as a crazy.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blackcats said:


> Didn't one of them say that the cause of floods were because of homosexuality and God was angry.
> 
> That just gives more and more reason why I shouldn't vote for these clowns.


Yup, that's right UKIP suspends ?gay marriage caused storms? councillor who today compared abortion laws to Holocaust - One News Page [UK]


----------



## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

10 good reasons not to vote for Ukip | Politics | The Guardian

Back to immigration.. we all know according to the UKIP that immigrants are the source of the problems with the British economy. We know that as we are told so by an the son of a stockbroker who also worked in the financial sector. Now which sector caused the sudden downturn?

Obviously a "common man for the people"... Educated at the Dulwich College which costs 5K per term just to attend, an additional 10K if boarding.

Let's not forget, bearing in mind this is a person who has worked in finance:
[youtube_browser]sdxlte9bBNE[/youtube_browser]​
Seems to me to be just another politician out for themselves, not really caring what happens to everyone else. He does make effective speeches though which play to people's fears and anxieties. Doesn't need to provide practical solutions of course as he will not have to deal with it. He'll be on his EU pension and will be fine regardless.


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

grumpy goby said:


> Google it, you will find plenty :laugh: Its full of fruitloops, not a week goes by without one exposing themself as a crazy.


yeah.....id be careful about going looking for that


----------



## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Back to immigration.. we all know according to the UKIP that immigrants are the source of the problems with the British economy.
> 
> We know that as we are told so by an the son of a stockbroker who also worked in the financial sector.
> 
> ...


OMG, have you only just tumbled to that?


----------



## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

grumpy goby said:


> UKIP candidate deselected over 'nutty' election flyer - Get West London
> 
> I did find the whole flyer... I will hunt it out. Ow.ly - UKIP 2 BIG things.pdf uploaded by @RuthCadbury Clearly points him towards UKIP as they link to the party website. Also, he (griffiths) was standing for the UKIP party.
> 
> ...


So you're posting old items from sacked members to smear the party.



StormyThai said:


> No it's not on the same flyer, this is a whole brand new gem
> 
> Source? A UKIP candidate handing these out on the street my dear....It's not exactly unknown that the vast majority of UKIP's members are homophobic now is it?


We'll have to take your word for that then, but I don't think saying mother is the most important job is an insult. 
If you know certain things and have read certain books about social engineering you'll understand what might be the motivation behind it. Using P.C like feminism as a political tool is not Ok. 
Feminism Was Created To Destabilize Society, Tax Women and set up the NWO - Aaron Russo - YouTube

Anyway, I'll leave it to proper Ukippers to defend them now, I don't want to hog the thread. :cornut:


----------



## grumpy goby (Jan 18, 2012)

Jensams said:


> So you're posting old items from sacked members to smear the party.
> 
> We'll have to take your word for that then, but I don't think saying mother is the most important job is an insult.
> If you know certain things and have read certain books about social engineering you'll understand what might be the motivation behind it. Using P.C like feminism as a political tool is not Ok.
> ...


Considering it is not a one off incident of candidates saying bizarre things, its an example of the type of people that are in the party.. He is still a member of UKIP from what I understand, just not standing for election anymore. Its hardly ancient news, it was quite recent.

Then there are the people saying Mo Farah shouldn't compete for GB, Lenny Henry should move to a "black country", gays cause storms, Ed Milliband doesn't know what's good for the country on the basis "he is polish" (??) and the various other oddities... Its a pretty odd picture the councillors of UKIP paint

Also, being a mother is an important job, its not THE most important job for all women, and to suggest anything else we do is inconsequential froth is horrendous. It is incredibly insulting for one, and archaic thinking for another. 
Also, the magic of being a woman is you don't need a lesson in social history to be offended by misogynistic or sexist remarks. Social Study education is not a prerequisite to outrage.

the fact is as each week goes by another member is being kicked out for embarrassing the party. I dread to think about the ones less vocal, it seems to be a nutter magnet and they cannot seem to keep control of it internally..


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

grumpy goby said:


> Considering it is not a one off incident of candidates saying bizarre things, its an example of the type of people that are in the party.. He is still a member of UKIP from what I understand, just not standing for election anymore. Its hardly ancient news, it was quite recent.
> 
> Then there are the people saying Mo Farah shouldn't compete for GB, Lenny Henry should move to a "black country", gays cause storms, Ed Milliband doesn't know what's good for the country on the basis "he is polish" (??) and the various other oddities... Its a pretty odd picture the councillors of UKIP paint
> 
> ...


And what about their star, Andre Lampitt, only just recently suspended.

He welcomed aids outbreaks in Africa adding 'inner peace will come when aids does what it should and reduce the African density'

Sick little 845t4rd. And he ain't even an englishman. :laugh:


----------



## Guest (Apr 30, 2014)

Jensams said:


> So you're posting old items from sacked members to smear the party.
> 
> We'll have to take your word for that then, but I don't think saying mother is the most important job is an insult.
> If you know certain things and have read certain books about social engineering you'll understand what might be the motivation behind it. Using P.C like feminism as a political tool is not Ok.
> ...


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

grumpy goby said:


> Considering it is not a one off incident of candidates saying bizarre things, its an example of the type of people that are in the party.. He is still a member of UKIP from what I understand, just not standing for election anymore. Its hardly ancient news, it was quite recent.
> 
> Then there are the people saying Mo Farah shouldn't compete for GB, Lenny Henry should move to a "black country", gays cause storms, Ed Milliband doesn't know what's good for the country on the basis "he is polish" (??) and the various other oddities... Its a pretty odd picture the councillors of UKIP paint
> 
> ...


Hey, maybe they're an actual UKIP member.

Or they're related to someone from the party.


----------



## Guest (Apr 30, 2014)

Blackcats said:


> Hey, maybe they're an actual UKIP member.
> 
> Or they're related to someone from the party.


You get the impression from that lot with the stuff they come out with, that everyone in that party is related to everyone else in that party...and not in a good way!


----------



## Blackcats (Apr 13, 2013)

jon bda said:


> You get the impression from that lot with the stuff they come out with, that everyone in that party is related to everyone else in that party...and not in a good way!


Okay, I'm lost by the second part but was merely a joke to GG.

I have said this once. The other assumptions going around was not by me, and was actually being referred to the original poster of this thread.


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jensams said:


> It was their stance on immigration and the fact Farage had a German wife that I commented on.


No, what you actually said, and what I replied to, was this:



Jensams said:


> And still people are confusing immigration rules with racism & 'sending all foreigners back'. Be careful about libel by linking to facts that back up what you're claiming.


I replied that people think UKIP are racist because of the words and actions of many of their candidates and NOT because of their policy on immigration - _and_ I provided several different links to back up what I was claiming. 

As your only response to that was an attempt to divert attention away from the point by a childish retort, then I can only conclude that you have no cogent rebuttal of my view.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

It appears that ukip have gone a step further than offering local referendums on badger culling, they have come out in full support the badger cull!

*UKIP; We believe that the removal of the reservoir of BTB (Bovine tuberculosis) from wildlife is essential to control the disease in cattle, and therefore support the concept of culling badgers, while there is no effective medication available. This subject is controversial, but hard, practical decisions have to be made.*

Ive been emailing their local representative on this & other issues, when I explained their is no scientific or moral justification for culling, sent him some literature to look at , he just responded with this > _Thanks for your reply but like any democracy every one has their views
Best regards_

So its sod science if it doesn't fit their 'views' then  This clown would fit in well with ukip > Why the Tory badger cull is inhumane and ineffective | LabourList

.


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## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> It appears that ukip have gone a step further than offering local referendums on badger culling, they have come out in full support the badger cull!
> 
> *UKIP; We believe that the removal of the reservoir of BTB (Bovine tuberculosis) from wildlife is essential to control the disease in cattle, and therefore support the concept of culling badgers, while there is no effective medication available. This subject is controversial, but hard, practical decisions have to be made.*
> 
> ...


a great man once said "Its not a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinions. But you cant have your own facts."


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

porps said:


> a great man once said "Its not a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinions. But you cant have your own facts."


I really like that quote! Who said it?


----------



## porps (Jun 23, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> I really like that quote! Who said it?


Ricky Gervais believe it or not


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

porps said:


> a great man once said "Its not a matter of opinion. You can have your own opinions. But you cant have your own facts."


Hey that is brilliant! Guess what my reply to him is going to be?:thumbsup:

,


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

porps said:


> Ricky Gervais believe it or not


You know, I didn't use to like this guy - but several things posted on here about his stance on various matters are really changing my opinion of him.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> I really like that quote! Who said it?


Daniel Patrick Moynihan.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> You know, I didn't use to like this guy - but several things posted on here about his stance on various matters are really changing my opinion of him.


I've always liked him, but if I didn't he'd win me over just for all he does to raise awareness on animal cruelty issues. Its a pity more celebrities don't use their high profiles and speak out for the voiceless.

Q&A: Ricky Gervais | Life and style | The Guardian

Ricky Gervais Is PETA's Person of the Year | PETA's Blog | PETA


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Zaros said:


> Daniel Patrick Moynihan.


Ah - so Ricky Gervaise was just quoting it - but quoting it aptly.

Heh heh - I think it ought to be the motto of this forum and appear automatically at the top of every post


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Ah - so Ricky Gervaise was just quoting it - but quoting it aptly.
> 
> Heh heh - I think it ought to be the motto of this forum and appear automatically at the top of every post


Yes. Sorry. :blush:

My Sony Tablet is extremely slow today it seems to be taking an age to send messages and change pages.

I was hoping the post might slip into obscurity.

And you're right about the motto of course.

An absolute fact for everyone. :001_smile:


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## Jensams (Feb 27, 2014)

Spellweaver said:


> No, what you actually said, and what I replied to, was this:
> 
> I replied that people think UKIP are racist because of the words and actions of many of their candidates and NOT because of their policy on immigration - _and_ I provided several different links to back up what I was claiming.
> 
> *As your only response to that was an attempt to divert attention away from the point by a childish retort*, then I can only conclude that you have no cogent rebuttal of my view.


My response was this:


> It was their stance on immigration and the fact Farage had a German wife that I commented on. I've stated that *I don't think their policies are racist. I never said there are no racist individuals in the party *(or kicked out of the party as in your list), as I wouldn't know anything about individual members, why should I? I'm not a Ukip voter. I've read some of their policies and some of them sound like common sense. Being the only party to talk about limiting immigration, it will attract people who want that for other reasons. *Looks like these people are sacked when found out. *


Don't reply to me after this, I don't debate with people who have to resort to being rude and selective about who they will be rude to, depending on who's in the groovy gang.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Jensams said:


> My response was this:
> 
> It was their stance on immigration and the fact Farage had a German wife that I commented on. I've stated that I don't think their policies are racist. I never said there are no racist individuals in the party (or kicked out of the party as in your list), as I wouldn't know anything about individual members, why should I? I'm not a Ukip voter. I've read some of their policies and some of them sound like common sense. Being the only party to talk about limiting immigration, it will attract people who want that for other reasons. Looks like these people are sacked when found out.


No, actually, your response to my reply to you that people are not confusing racism with immigration was this:



Jensams said:


> btw, spellweaver, shall we talk about individuals from the other parties too?, I KNOW we can sink much lower than he said this/she said that. I mean real gutter stuff.


 ..........



Jensams said:


> Don't reply to me after this, I don't debate with people who have to resort to being rude and selective about who they will be rude to, depending on who's in the groovy gang.


Sorry, Jensams, but you are not the forum policeman and you cannot dictate who I reply to and what I post about.

It seems like you don't want to debate at all.

The only person being rude on here is you. I have raised points with you which you have still not answered other than firstly with the above remark about "gutter stuff", and now by trying to pull the "being rude" and "being in a gang" cards. Both of those statements you made are uintrue.

Now, you said people were confusing racism with immigraton. I say they are not. Do you have any reply to that? If you have no answer to questions I have posed you, then say so instead of trying to make out that I am being rude by asking you for replies, and pointing out to you that you are avoiding replying.


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