# breeding a cockapoo bitch



## tonyhm (Aug 20, 2013)

Hi there,
we have a 2 and a half year old cockapoo bitch called honey. she is coming up to her 4th season and we have decided to let her have a litter of pups. we have never breed a dog before so are new to the whole thing. we have made contact with a couple of local stud owners who have been very helpful with anwsering some questions we have. but we seem to be getting some conflicting information when it comes to stud fees. some say the fee is the fee for 2 mating attempts, while others say you pay the stud fee at the time of the mating and then when the pups are born we have to pay the stud owner the difference between what we paid as a stud fee and how much we are going to sell 1 pup for. not sure which way is normal or correct.
any information or advise on this or on breeding a cocapoo in general would be very much appreciated.
many thanks in advance


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Cockapoos are lovely. However, have you researched which if any health tests this type of dog will need? I'm sure the last thing you want is to end up with pups with serious problems.

Also please be aware that your girl won't actually gain any benefit from having a litter. You may enjoy the experience but it won't give any health benefits to your girl and in fact, there can be risks involved so do make sure you get help.

I can't advise re stud fees I'm afraid but I'm sure someone else will come along.

Are you also prepared to keep or bring back any pups that either don't sell OR are not happy in their new homes/owners want to return them? Ethical breeders offer a lifetime of advice and support AND will ALWAYS take back any of their pups that need rehoming.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Hi, sorting the price out is the least of your worries that should be addressed long before the bitch is mated.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Before even getting round to discussing stud fees, it's important she & the stud have had all the relevant health tests for the 2 breeds. This is one of many things that need doing before even thinking about breeding. There's lots of useful stickies in the breeding section of the forum.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I'm sure you'll want to be an ethical breeder, so here is some info on the vital health tests that a Cockerpoo needs, remember both your girl and the stud boy will need these: 

Here from the Cockerpoo Club of GB are some things to consider:




What type of Cockapoo do you want to produce?

Do you have the space and facilities to breed and raise a litter of pups?

Do you have available free time?

Do you have the facility to isolate a dog, if necessary?

Are you registered with a vet experienced with the breeding of dogs?

Do you know what happens when a bitch comes into season?

Would you be able to assist during the mating of your bitch?

Would you have your bitch ultrasound pregnancy scanned at 30 days or let nature take its course?

Do you know how long the pregnancy lasts?

Would you be concerned if your bitch became Anorexic late in her pregnancy?

Do you understand the nutritional needs of a pregnant bitch?

Do you have proper whelping box?

Could you recognise the symptoms of uterine inertia, calcium deficiency, or pre-eclampsia in pregnancy?

Do you have the experience to recognise the onset of labour?

Would you recognise when and know why a bitch was nesting?

Could you manipulate pups during labour to ease delivery?

Could you do a vaginal sweep to induce contractions during labour?

Do you know how long labour can/should last?

Do you know what is an acceptable time delay of delivery between pups?

Would you know when to call vet if labour was not progressing normally?

Would you know when the births have finished?

Would you be able to tell that the uterus was clear both of pups and afterbirth?

Could you check your bitches temperature?

Do you have clear knowledge of husbandry and contamination?

Could you keep the whelping box warm enough, particularly for the 1st week?

Would you have dew claws present on any of the pups, removed?

For the care of newborn pups, would you be available 24/7?

Would you be able to recognise the symptoms of dehydration and be able to treat it quickly?
Would you know what to support feed the pups, if any were looking weak?
Would you be able to stomach tube your newborn puppies?
Would you be able to assist your puppies to suckle?
What would you feed a nursing bitch?
How and when would you exercise her - how much time out from her pups should she have?
When would you worm the pups?
When would you wean the pups and what would you feed them?
Could you recognise fleas, walking dandruff (microscopic mites) and ear mites and know how to treat them quickly?
How would you socialise the pups?
Where would you advertise them for sale?
Do you have the facilities to welcome prospective buyers?
Do you have the people skills do deal with prospective buyers?
How might you deal with someone viewing that you felt is not suitable to own a dog?
Are you aware of ever present diseases and how to control them?
Would you arrange a vet check, 1st vaccination and microchipping of the litter before they are sold?
Do you know the minimum accepted age that puppies can leave for their forever homes?
Would you prepare puppy packs?
Would you arrange 4 weeks free puppy insurance?
Would you provide back-up advice to the new puppy owners?
Would you offer lifelong support and advice?
Would you take a puppy back?
Would you help to re-home a dog that you have bred, at any age?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Here is the health testing that both your girl and the stud dog would need:

Health Testing - The Cockapoo Club of GB - CCGB

As well as ensuring you are an ethical breeder, you would also have a higher chance of getting decent owners for the pups by doing the vital tests.


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## tonyhm (Aug 20, 2013)

hi thanks for the replys.
we are not just jumping into this and have planed for it since we got her. we only what 1 litter from her as we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us. we know all about the possible complications and risks, no pregnancy is risk free weather it is with a dog or a human. we have consulted our family vet and she has had a full check up. our vet has advised us of all the risks and the tests that need to be conducted. she is not due in season for another 2 months but our vet advised us that the most important thing to do at this stage is find a stud, contact them, make sure we and our dog is happy with them so that as the time gets nearer all the plans are made.


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

I have a cockapoo bitch as well and she is being spayed tomo, she is my little girl and i just couldnt put her through the stress of a litter.. i would be so so scared of losing her.

Will be lovely to have another cockapoo breeder who is doing all the right things as there are so many who just do it for the money and dont realise that raising a little can lose you money if things dont go to plan!!

My girl had parents who were health tested and it took months and months to find one who did, i wanted a healthy girl and i know pra is prevalent in both breeds and having an oes who has just gone blind through this shows how important it is to know the genes and scores with the breeds.

You should have the paperwork on your girl as to what tests her parents had done which will give you an idea as to what ones to start with these run about £3000 i believe but i could be wrong!! as they arent done by a vet but by specialists.

Do you have any photos of your girly?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

tonyhm said:


> hi thanks for the replys.
> we are not just jumping into this and have planed for it since we got her. we only what 1 litter from her as we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us. we know all about the possible complications and risks, no pregnancy is risk free weather it is with a dog or a human. we have consulted our family vet and she has had a full check up. our vet has advised us of all the risks and the tests that need to be conducted. she is not due in season for another 2 months but our vet advised us that the most important thing to do at this stage is find a stud, contact them, make sure we and our dog is happy with them so that as the time gets nearer all the plans are made.


Great that you're researching it. Did your vet also mention that more and more lovely Doodle type dogs are ending up in rescue, sadly...?

The vet check is really good but please please get the breed tests done too 

Also make sure the stud dog has had them and is clear of any conditions 

Will it still be 'nice' when you're all up all night, every night with the pups...?


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

tonyhm said:


> hi thanks for the replys.
> we are not just jumping into this and have planed for it since we got her. *we only what 1 litter from her as we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us*. we know all about the possible complications and risks, no pregnancy is risk free weather it is with a dog or a human. we have consulted our family vet and she has had a full check up. our vet has advised us of all the risks and the tests that need to be conducted. she is not due in season for another 2 months but our vet advised us that the most important thing to do at this stage is find a stud, contact them, make sure we and our dog is happy with them so that as the time gets nearer all the plans are made.


I'm afraid no good breeder would see this as a valid reason to breed, you are thinking of what you want over the welfare of your dog.

What tests did the vet say would need to be done? Hip/elbow scoring? Optigen?


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Our girls parents had the above 3 the hips, elbows and the optigen..

can you imagine having your dog go blind... it really is truly awful and not something you would want to put yourselves or prospective owners through.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

catseyes said:


> Our girls parents had the above 3 the hips, elbows and the optigen..
> 
> can you imagine having your dog go blind... it really is truly awful and not something you would want to put yourselves or prospective owners through.


I 'liked' for the post being informative, not at the thought of a dog going blind


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> we only what 1 litter from her as we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us.


This really is the worse reason for breeding a litter. So you're going to put your bitch at risk so you and your children can have a nice experience?


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> I 'liked' for the post being informative, not at the thought of a dog going blind


Thank you.. its more than heartbreaking to go through and every day i look at those vacant eyes not able to find what hes looking for and wish i could fix him.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

tonyhm said:


> hi thanks for the replys.
> we are not just jumping into this and have planed for it since we got her. we only what 1 litter from her as *we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us.* we know all about the possible complications and risks, no pregnancy is risk free weather it is with a dog or a human. we have consulted our family vet and she has had a full check up. our vet has advised us of all the risks and the tests that need to be conducted. she is not due in season for another 2 months but our vet advised us that the most important thing to do at this stage is find a stud, contact them, make sure we and our dog is happy with them so that as the time gets nearer all the plans are made.


No offense but wanting your children to experience "the miracle of birth" is possibly the worst reason to want to breed a litter. It might well be a "nice experience" for you and your children but only if there are no complications - no emergency c-section for the bitch, no stillborn puppies, no fading puppy syndrome pups, etc. But will it be a "nice experience" for the bitch? the answer is no.

The only justification for putting a bitch through having a litter is that you have an excellent example of a breed (not applicable in your case as you have a crossbreed) that is proven in some field and fully health tested. Also that you have homes lined up for most of the puppies and are willing to take puppies back at any point in their life.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

That's scared the OP off then! Please don't breed from her, enjoy her as your family dog. Don't risk her health for a pathetic reason to breed. If you do, please get the relevant health tests carried out, contracts for all purchasers, with breed restrictions and return to breeder (you) if they are unable to keep their puppy for ANY reason, and at ANY age.

Have a wander around your local rescue centre and just see how many dogs that need forever homes. Take your children and educate them to rescue dogs, not breed them. Please.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

tonyhm said:


> hi thanks for the replys.
> we are not just jumping into this and have planed for it since we got her. we only what 1 litter from her as we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us. we know all about the possible complications and risks, no pregnancy is risk free weather it is with a dog or a human. we have consulted our family vet and she has had a full check up. our vet has advised us of all the risks and the tests that need to be conducted. she is not due in season for another 2 months but our vet advised us that the most important thing to do at this stage is find a stud, contact them, make sure we and our dog is happy with them so that as the time gets nearer all the plans are made.


If you want to breed, then the most important thing to do at this stage is to sort out health tests - hip tests take a month or two to come through.
Then look into a few stud dogs. Go and look at a few. Don't rely on pictures or the owner saying 'he's friendly'. 
I have no problem with breeding from a family pet (I plan to), however, it still has to be done properly - e.g. puppy packs, contracts, health tests, breeder support etc... most dogs are family pets after all... and most Cockerpoos are unhealth tested. I would support health testing cockerpoo breeders.

Good luck if you do go ahead.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Have you had a look at the Cockapoo Owners Club GB? They have information relating to health and breeding, unbiased and informative.

To be very honest, I have to agree with others, breeding simply because it's a nice experience for your children isn't a good enough reason. What happens to all the pups from every litter where everyone breeds because it's a *nice* experience? 

I would happily keep you in the loop with my breeding plans, I have two bitches that I may possibly breed from, and although you and your children wouldn't be there for the birth of pups, if you're close enough, I may use your children for socialisation once pups are old enough. But, that would be if I breed, not when I breed, as there are a lot of boxes to tick before I make any firm decisions. 

And, just as a final aside, my one litter so far left me £3k in the red, emergency c-sections and other vets bills.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

catseyes said:


> I have a cockapoo bitch as well and she is being spayed tomo, she is my little girl and i just couldnt put her through the stress of a litter.. i would be so so scared of losing her.
> 
> Will be lovely to have another cockapoo breeder who is doing all the right things as there are so many who just do it for the money and dont realise that raising a little can lose you money if things dont go to plan!!
> 
> ...


£3000 sounds a hell of a lot... Hip and elbow scoring cost us £240 and PRA is costing £85 I think we were quoted...
ETA: BVA Eyes are £51


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I would imagine relative health tests would be hip scores, patella luxation grades, PRA status, and BVA eye cert, not sure of any other but those would be the ones I'd be looking at for both bitch and stud dog, and I'd expect to pay approx £700 for the lot max, but then I do know of a hip scoring specialist to take my dogs to.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

catseyes said:


> Thank you.. its more than heartbreaking to go through and every day i look at those vacant eyes not able to find what hes looking for and wish i could fix him.


so sad. so sorry.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

dandogman said:


> £3000 sounds a hell of a lot... Hip and elbow scoring cost us £240 and PRA is costing £85 I think we were quoted...


That's pretty cheap for both hips and elbows if it includes the BVA fee, although is possible.

There are many other costs.... stud fee - £500, premates - £200, food, both for the bitch and weaning. Spent around £500 on puppy food for my last litter (albeit it was expensive food and I gave puppy buyers some to keep them going for a week). Then there's all the incidentals - new vet bed, new meds, wormers etc. And in the case of a one off litter, whelping box, pen, heat pad etc.

I believe SL also had a C-section - an out of hours C-section around here would cost approx. £1500.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> That's pretty cheap for both hips and elbows if it includes the BVA fee, although is possible.
> 
> There are many other costs.... stud fee - £500, premates - £200, food, both for the bitch and weaning. Spent around £500 on puppy food for my last litter (albeit it was expensive food and I gave puppy buyers some to keep them going for a week). Then there's all the incidentals - new vet bed, new meds, wormers etc. And in the case of a one off litter, whelping box, pen, heat pad etc.
> 
> I believe SL also had a C-section - an out of hours C-section around here would cost approx. £1500.


Very true, if I included the stud fee in the fees I paid, and the progesterone testing, then the outlay would be more like £4k, I did 5 progesterone tests at £90 plus petrol from near Huddersfield up to Wetherby, stud fee was £450 plus petrol across from near Huddersfield to North Wales.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

rocco33 said:


> That's pretty cheap for both hips and elbows if it includes the BVA fee, although is possible.
> 
> There are many other costs.... stud fee - £500, premates - £200, food, both for the bitch and weaning. Spent around £500 on puppy food for my last litter (albeit it was expensive food and I gave puppy buyers some to keep them going for a week). Then there's all the incidentals - new vet bed, new meds, wormers etc. And in the case of a one off litter, whelping box, pen, heat pad etc.
> 
> I believe SL also had a C-section - an out of hours C-section around here would cost approx. £1500.


Yes, I understand it was a good deal - I was quoted £300 - £350 by the vet. I went to the top radiographer in the end under sedation. Great value.

When I said £3000 was a lot - I meant for health testing not the whole process. I am well aware of the costs and potential costs of breeding. There is no money to be made in breeding correctly.

By the time all costs including health tests, food, bedding, worming, stud fees etc... I expect it to be several ££££'s.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Very true, if I included the stud fee in the fees I paid, and the progesterone testing, then the outlay would be more like £4k, I did 5 progesterone tests at £90 plus petrol from near Huddersfield up to Wetherby, stud fee was £450 plus petrol across from near Huddersfield to North Wales.


And if I also added hip scores, elbow grades etc, then I'm getting on for daft money, plus I bought a whelping box, heat lamp etc, some of which I won't use again, so I reckon my total outlay for the one litter, without thinking about extra energy costs from washing bedding etc, or purchase costs of bitch was close to £6,000, if you factor in everything else, I sold 5 pups for £600 each, so achieved half my layout, but then also lost money on the c-section and other vets bills.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

dandogman said:


> Yes, I understand it was a good deal - I was quoted £300 - £350 by the vet. I went to the top radiographer in the end under sedation. Great value.
> 
> When I said £3000 was a lot - I meant for health testing not the whole process. I am well aware of the costs and potential costs of breeding. There is no money to be made in breeding correctly.
> 
> By the time all costs including health tests, food, bedding, worming, stud fees etc... I expect it to be several ££££'s.


I assumed you meant Marilyn as she is very reasonable.

I wouldn't expect health testing alone to be £3000 but I can't speak for all breeds.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

tonyhm said:


> we are not just jumping into this and have planed for it since we got her. we only what 1 litter from her as we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us.


Gosh - I do think you need to remove your rose tinted spectacles.... it could very easily turn out to be a horrific and traumatic experience for your children.

If you want them to witness 'the miracle of birth' then take them to an open farm on a regular basis, where they can see other livestock being mated, giving birth and so on, perhaps even following one of the animals through the whole process.

Most people who go into breeding dogs don't just study a few books and ask on a forum - they are 'mentored' by an experienced breeder for some time and are invited to be present at whelpings so they can recognise all the potential problems.

Would you really risk your lovely pet dog's life, or those of her puppies, because it "would be a *nice* experience?"

There is absolutely nothing "*nice*" about c-sections, uterine inertia, eclampsia, stillborn puppies, fading puppies, OR having to stay with the bitch at ALL TIMES day and night for the first few weeks in case of emergency.

There is also nothing *nice* about _not_ doing the above, and coming down in the morning to find she has trodden or rolled on one or two and squashed them to death.

In fact, there is _nothing_ *nice* at all about breeding from an untested dog and hearing a few years later all the puppies have gone blind, or suffer from a horrible genetic problem you *could* have tested for before breeding.

The way things are going, it may well be possible for people to sue breeders in future if that happens.... it's already done in many countries and I think there may have been a few instances here.

Oh..... not to mince words, but if you think that producing one litter doesn't make you a "breeder" - then that's like saying you have children and you aren't a parent. You WILL BE the breeder of those puppies, and it's not a responsibility to be taken lightly, just cos it's *nice*.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

tonyhm said:


> hi thanks for the replys.
> we are not just jumping into this and have planed for it since we got her. we only what 1 litter from her as we have children and feel it would be a nice experience for all of us. we know all about the possible complications and risks, no pregnancy is risk free weather it is with a dog or a human. we have consulted our family vet and she has had a full check up.


The difference is as humans WE chose whether to get pregnant or not. 
A check up is not health testing, the parents could be carrying anything if not tested. 
I thought I gave my four children everything but I wouldn't risk any of my dogs lives for them.

Why not just buy another pup for company? It could save your dogs life.


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## Doguiesrus (Apr 18, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> This really is the worse reason for breeding a litter. So you're going to put your bitch at risk so you and your children can have a nice experience?


When I first came on here everyone dove on me as soon as I mentioned having a litter. The reason I have and I will have litters from my own dogs is as follows! It has taken me years to research the breed and finally get the dogs I am happy with. The healthiest lines going and health test to the back paws. I show all my dogs I intend to breed from and all have done equally as well in the show ring. I wanted to start my own lines from the amazing lines I've pinched down the way. Out of the litter I have born yesterday I will have none for sale. I am keeping 2, 3 maybe 4 in partnership. My sister is having one and if the one doesnt go in partnership my uncle will take him. I could cope with all the heartache of spending hours finding new homes for them all where I could t be in there lives. 
S
I can understand you wanting to experience it but honestly my 6 year old was traumatised yesterday after seing my girl struggle and having to go back and forth to the vets for a section. I used to breed guinea pigs and these where a lot more fun for the children! And easier to accommodate if you carnt find a good home!

Also my vet bill for yesterday was fairly cheap at £1200 but this was in hours too. So something to think about as insurance rarely cover breeding terms. This had to be paid when I picked my girl up. And with all the health test and care I've put into this litter I will be £thousands down but I'm not worried about that cos mine where bred for me to keep not sell. Im not saying dont do it just want to make i aware of the circumstances. Think about it carefully. X


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Wandering over from the cat section... can you foster pregnant dogs as you can cats? Get to experience the 'lovely' birthing and raising of a litter while helping out an overcrowded shelter stretched for volunteers at the same time.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> Wandering over from the cat section... *can you foster pregnant dogs as you can cats? *Get to experience the 'lovely' birthing and raising of a litter while helping out an overcrowded shelter stretched for volunteers at the same time.


Yes you can but I can't imagine a rescue allowing a pregnant dog to be fostered by someone who has no experience of whelping due to the risks and not recognising problems. I think people are unaware of the risks - it has far more risks than human pregnancy where there are midwives and doctors checking on you throughout pregnancy and childbirth.

Would you have another baby just so that your children can experience the pregnancy and birth? Quite honestly, it disgusts me that people can use their animals to provide entertainment and education for their children. There are far better ways to educate them.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Yes you can but I can't imagine a rescue allowing a pregnant dog to be fostered by someone who has no experience of whelping due to the risks and not recognising problems. I think people are unaware of the risks - it has far more risks than human pregnancy where there are midwives and doctors checking on you throughout pregnancy and childbirth.
> 
> Would you have another baby just so that your children can experience the pregnancy and birth? *Quite honestly, it disgusts me that people can use their animals to provide entertainment and education for their children.* There are far better ways to educate them.


Disgusting but not surprising. Same as those caged rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters etc that are shut in tiny cages and largely ignored because they wanted their children "to experience keeping a pet".


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Seems like some vets out there are encouraging people to breed from their pets without warning them about the risks and pitfalls and potential danger to the bitch....


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

rocco33 said:


> Yes you can but I can't imagine a rescue allowing a pregnant dog to be fostered by someone who has no experience of whelping due to the risks and not recognising problems.


And how does one get that experience? By breeding their pet dog for fun first?

The shelters I know fully support and educate their foster carers, while the op may have begun this thread with the awful reason of breeding for their kids, people can and do change their minds when shown another way.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

spotty cats said:


> And how does one get that experience? By breeding their pet dog for fun first?
> 
> The shelters I know fully support and educate their foster carers, while the op may have begun this thread with the awful reason of breeding for their kids, people can and do change their minds when shown another way.


Hence the offer I made for them to see how I am going about planning my next possible litter. I'll be updating the thread I started on here in any case, but anyone who is interested is welcome to ask me any questions, and I'll keep them updated with any progress, or not!


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi Tonyhm

Just want to say, I have bred my cockerspaniel bitch with a miniture poodle to produce F1 cockerpoo pups.

I dont see anything wrong with you breeding your girl but i do agree with all the people on here that have told you about how important it is to have all the tests done Before you breed and cannot believe your vet said it is more important to find a stud dog before having her tested.

Any decent stud dog ownwer wouldn't even consider your girl without her first having those tests.

Just to tell you what tests i had done on my girl and the cost.

First of all it isn't important to have a spaniel hip scored as they dont have any real problems in this area although it is a good idea to test all areas.

Hip scores cost £180 for the xray and £51 for it to be sent away and annalized total £231

PRA Eye testing was £150 as you now have to send away to Germany for this to be done through DNA. You can get your vet to just test the eyes yearly and give you a certificate for about £50 but this is every year and doesn't guarrentee Genetically clear so i would always advise for the DNA test.

FN Kidney testing was also £150, again sent away to Germany.

So basically in total it cost me around the £600 mark for all tests to be done.

Is this really a cost you want to pay out if you are only going to breed her once for a nice experience, especially if she then goes onto have complications. You can get breeding insurance from the Kennel club but this only covers you for up to £1000 and is very expensive. 

Please dont breed your girl if you dont have all of the above tests done. I too have seen a friends little spaniel suffer with PRA and it is a terrible thing to witness.

It is also really important that the stud dog you use has also been tested for at least PRA and FN and you would need a reciept and copies of the certificates for these tests. Dont mate her without seeing these first.

As for a stud. A reputable stud owner charges a stud fee or asks for pick of the litter. you will get a reciept for the mating which should be for 2-3 times and also a contract to say if no whelp (you would have to produce proof from your vet) then a free mating next season. I wouldn't touch a stud owner or their dogs if the above was not the case or if they couldn't proove their animals are tested clear DNA wise.

Dont take to heart any really negative comments from people who dont agree with the cross breeding, but do listen to their advice about the tests.

I too am new to breeding and yes i've had one or two negative comments because i'm breeding cockerpoos but the majority of people on here are a god send and only want to help and advise you.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but please, please have her tested if you breed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Fendoodles, just to pick up on the DNA tests to Germany, I'm not sure which company this is but personally, because of false results from differing laboratories, I would only go with the optigen test. It is possible in the UK to do this via Idexx, who send the bloodworks off to Optigen in the USA who developed the test for PRA, so the results are direct from Optigen and you get confirmation from Idexx. Having heard of people with dogs that have been tested and given results that have proved wrong, then gone on to breed and producing pups of either carrier or affected status, I really wouldn't touch any other laboratory with a long barge pole. I also plan to test every generation to hopefully ensure any possibility of human error is kept to an absolute minimum. 

Have you also looked at patella luxation? This is something I would have thought *should* be done for a cocker spaniel/poodle type cross.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Tonyhm
> 
> Just want to say, I have bred my cockerspaniel bitch with a miniture poodle to produce F1 cockerpoo pups.
> 
> ...


The Cocker spaniel hip BMS is 13... that would suggest to me that there is a problem in the breed.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Tonyhm
> 
> Please dont breed your girl if you dont have all of the above tests done. I too have seen a friends little spaniel suffer with PRA and it is a terrible thing to witness.
> 
> ...


I would agree with this - we all have to start somewhere, and taking good advice is a good place to start. However, I also think that having a litter because they children would enjoy the experience is something to think very carefully about. What if your bitch dies, or you lose one or more puppies? Will the experience be quite so wonderful then.

If you still want to breed, follow advice regarding tests and whelping etc, and the very best to you and your little dog.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Tonyhm
> 
> Just want to say, I have bred my cockerspaniel bitch with a miniture poodle to produce F1 cockerpoo pups.
> 
> ...


I know you did all the health testing, which is great but can I ask why you opted for a cross breed and not to breed her to a cocker spaniel?

What was your aim for the litter you had? To keep a F1 girl and then mate her and keep a F2 etc?


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Fendoodles, just to pick up on the DNA tests to Germany, I'm not sure which company this is but personally, because of false results from differing laboratories, I would only go with the optigen test. It is possible in the UK to do this via Idexx, who send the bloodworks off to Optigen in the USA who developed the test for PRA, so the results are direct from Optigen and you get confirmation from Idexx. Having heard of people with dogs that have been tested and given results that have proved wrong, then gone on to breed and producing pups of either carrier or affected status, I really wouldn't touch any other laboratory with a long barge pole. I also plan to test every generation to hopefully ensure any possibility of human error is kept to an absolute minimum.
> 
> Have you also looked at patella luxation? This is something I would have thought *should* be done for a cocker spaniel/poodle type cross.


Thanks I haven't herd of any problems in this area but thankyou for letting me know, all the people i know who have tested with the germany company are that i know are singing their praises. as for patella luxation, i must admit i haven't herd of it before soi will deffinately look into it. thank you


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> I know you did all the health testing, which is great but can I ask why you opted for a cross breed and not to breed her to a cocker spaniel?
> 
> What was your aim for the litter you had? To keep a F1 girl and then mate her and keep a F2 etc?


Hi Taylorbaby

I researched the popularity of the breed and also if i could sell my Pure bred cockers I would. sadley i found i could not, even though my girl has 5 champions in her pedigree. Crazy i know. 

I'm afraid i am a little bit like lots of others on here who does prefer the full pedigree breeds, especially spaniels as i have loved and owned them all my life, however in recent years this beautiful breed is becomming less and less popular, especially in the area i live and breeders are finding it harder and harder to find their pups suitable homes, wheras everyone seems to want cockerpoos at the moment.

i know, i know we should all stick to our principles and only breed the pure breeds but you do also have to think about what people want. And please dont say it's not supposed to be done just for the money as i agree, but you do have to cover your costs.

I go to a lovely ring craft group and have made some great friends who breed a range of lovely beautiful pure bred dogs and they are all saying the same. people just dont want these animals.

I dont agree with the breeders who state the cockerpoo is Hyperallergenic(sorry for the bad spelling) as this is simply not true, and i had 2 people contact me wanting to go on my waiting list because they had been told (one by a vet i might add) that cockerpoo's dont shed. I soon put them right on that one as they could if they take after the spaniel.

No I'm not going to keep 1 as i actually prefer the F1's to the F2's just my personal preference.

Even though i prefer the pure bred spaniels, i dont have a major problem with cross breeding, whether for sprockers or cockerpoos.

What i do have a problem with is people who breed without testing their animals for the dreadful conditions some of these dogs inherit. I also have a problem with breeders who inbreed with father to daughter etc and have a heated discussion nearly every week with one lady at our ring craft group who does do this. she will never make me undersatnd why it's done as i just feel it's wrong. she is a lovely lady and has beautiful dogs so it's always a friendly heated discussion.

No-one will ever be able to stop people breeding their dogs to whatever they choose, but i do think their should be a law that All dogs should have genetic testing done so at least that way the animals will be pain free whatever the breed, pure or crosses.

I also really appreciate all the help and advice everyone on here gives me and i will deffinately loook into what sleeping lon has said and get this test done

thanks


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Taylorbaby
> *
> I researched the popularity of the breed and also if i could sell my Pure bred cockers I would. sadley i found i could not,* even though my girl has 5 champions in her pedigree. Crazy i know.
> *
> ...


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Taylorbaby
> 
> I researched the popularity of the breed and also if i could sell my Pure bred cockers I would. sadley i found i could not, even though my girl has 5 champions in her pedigree. Crazy i know.


You mention ringcraft so I assume you show your girl? It's just that you mention the number of champions in her pedigree - which most dogs actually seem to have - but not what she herself has achieved in the show ring?

I can understand why people would perhaps be reluctant not to commit to buying a pup where one or other of the parents haven't been proven in the show ring.


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

My advice to the OP is to go back to your dog's breeder and get help and information from them.

Some dogs cannot be bred from, the original breeder will have a good idea whether she was sold as a pet or not.

Forum members are well aware of the number of unwanted dogs in rescues and the ones that have gentic problems due to ill-breeding and don't want your pups to be a statistic. 

Please sieve through this thread for the advice they are offering.

Whilst I am not a breeder I try to learn as much as I can and one thing that is very confusing for me is "Health Tests" which implies having the dog checked that it is physically able to have pups and is in peak condition, which a vet will do. It doesn't mean that at all these tests should imo be renamed to something like "Genetic Screening" and these tests are carried out by Specialists not your local registered vet.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Taylorbaby
> 
> I researched the popularity of the breed and also if i could sell my Pure bred cockers I would. sadley i found i could not, even though my girl has 5 champions in her pedigree. Crazy i know.
> 
> ...


Im not quite sure why you bred, as normally its to keep a pup? You could have promoted the breed? That's why I don't get about the poodle crossing as normally you want to have a breed & standard, so you need to keep one, breed it to a cocker x and have a generation, otherwise its just always 1st crosses and will never become a breed? (not saying that is you just in general)

I see a lot of cockers where I am, they are really popular with everyone, and all pups are sold, normally about £600-900, a lot of roans and loads of goldens, a cruft judge has a kitten from me!!  But cocker cross poodles are normally £800-1500! and normally not health tested (some are though which is great), a 'kennel' in the next town breeds them, all outside, but they breed most breeds  Some were being sold as 'show quality', I didn't get that! 

When I looked up golden retrievers on a popular site it just came up with golden x poodle, I felt quite sad, and they were more expensive than goldens! :001_unsure:


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lostbear said:


> Fendoodles said:
> 
> 
> > Hi Taylorbaby
> ...


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BessieDog said:


> You mention ringcraft so I assume you show your girl? It's just that you mention the number of champions in her pedigree - which most dogs actually seem to have - but not what she herself has achieved in the show ring?
> 
> I can understand why people would perhaps be reluctant not to commit to buying a pup where one or other of the parents haven't been proven in the show ring.


Hi bessie dog.

sorry i find that a bit narrow minded. no i dont show my girl, only at local charity fun shows.

As for saying people are reluctant to buy a puppy that hasn't proven itself in the ring sorry but that is just a load of old tosh.

there are literally 100's of people who want a Pet dog, not a show dog and there are also hundreds of people who could not give a fig as whether they a champions or not. I happen to be one of them.

It's more important that the animal is healthy than a champion and believe me i've come across a champion or two that most definately are not.

Like i said earlier i have owned and spaniels all my life. another breed i have owned all my life are German shepherds and as far as the show ring where they are concerned is i wuldn't touch one from a show breeder as you might just as well buy a frog wth the dreadful state of the way those particular strains of shepherds are. but there you go i'm off again on a tangent about shepherds sorry.

Back to the cockers. I live within a huge shooting community and the majority of the people on the shoots couldn't care less about if those dogs are proven n a ring or not. want they want is proven in the field and i know of one particular cross between a wiemeranna(Sorry for wrong spelling) and a English Pointer that is actually becoming more popular in the field due to it's endurance and easy to train ability.

I still stand by what i said earlier and that is if all the genetic tests are carried out before breeding and you have a list of good possible owners for the pups then there is nothing wrong with breeding crosses


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> lostbear said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you Lostbear. where abouts are you in the country as where we are no-one seems to want them. i would love to just breed Cockers and i agree it is very sad
> ...


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Taylorbaby said:


> Im not quite sure why you bred, as normally its to keep a pup? You could have promoted the breed? That's why I don't get about the poodle crossing as normally you want to have a breed & standard, so you need to keep one, breed it to a cocker x and have a generation, otherwise its just always 1st crosses and will never become a breed? (not saying that is you just in general)
> 
> I see a lot of cockers where I am, they are really popular with everyone, and all pups are sold, normally about £600-900, a lot of roans and loads of goldens, a cruft judge has a kitten from me!!  But cocker cross poodles are normally £800-1500! and normally not health tested (some are though which is great), a 'kennel' in the next town breeds them, all outside, but they breed most breeds  Some were being sold as 'show quality', I didn't get that!
> 
> When I looked up golden retrievers on a popular site it just came up with golden x poodle, I felt quite sad, and they were more expensive than goldens! :001_unsure:


I know what you mean. the crosses do at the moment seem to sell for more money. That will not be the case for me. I want lovely forever homes for my babies so the money comes secondary and i have filtered through all the emails i've recieved about wanting one and believe me some of the reasons people put is crazy but i have a rally good waiting list of lovely people.

there is a kennel place nt to far from me as well who sell all kinds of breeds, cockers, and cockerpoo's. I went to visit and wasn't impressed with them to be honest. the dont even wean their pups on puppy food but on adult food and the amount of the poor little things that were quarrentiened due to tummy upsets scared me. I would never ever buy a pup from a place like that. amazes me how they got a breeding licence to be honest. they sell their cockerpoos for £950, ridiculous money for a non-pedagree


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## Rubydooz (Jun 19, 2012)

Hi

Just wanted to highlight to the OP... I know eye testing, hip/elbow scores have been covered and FN (kidney disease) mentioned but I would just like to reiterate the importance of FN testing in addition to the other tests... especially as you are breeding a cockapoo; presumably to produce a next generation cross. When entering new generations you can potentially harbour carriers on either side so this is a MUST.

J


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Fendoodles said:
> 
> 
> > I think if your sole aim is simply breeding, you may *struggle*, if you aim to do the health tests AND prove your breeding stock in some way, you will not struggle. Cocker spaniels are the second most popular breed, second only to the Labrador retriever, so there is a large market for pups (mostly as pets), it's unfortunately supplied, in large, by people who have little or no scruples and simply use their dogs to make cash.
> ...


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> I know what you mean. the crosses do at the moment seem to sell for more money. That will not be the case for me. I want lovely forever homes for my babies so the money comes secondary and i have filtered through all the emails i've recieved about wanting one and believe me some of the reasons people put is crazy but i have a rally good waiting list of lovely people.


So let's be honest here... you're not breeding to keep one; you're not breeding to better any breed, or keep certain lines going; you're not breeding for money... so why exactly ARE you breeding? :confused1:

To put more dogs on this already overcrowded earth? *WHY???? *


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I must admit, I can't understand why you want to breed, as you seem taken with the champions in your girls line, but don't see a market for cocker pups? 

I can honestly tell you, having sat in a vets at 7:30am on a Sunday morning, after spending the prior 36 hours waiting, waiting and waiting for my girl to start whelping, there is nothing at all that would motivate me to breed unless I had a further aim as regards continuing on with something I thought was worth while. Sitting with my face covered in snot and tears whilst making one of the hardest decisions in my life is not something I'd want to *simply* repeat. 

I'm not meaning to be personal or critical, but I do struggle to understand the reasoning behind why you're opting for a cockapoo litter, when you obviously love your girl for what she is, and the lineage behind her?? Sorry if any of that comes across in the wrong way, hopefully not.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi bessie dog.
> 
> sorry i find that a bit narrow minded. no i dont show my girl, only at local charity fun shows.
> 
> ...


So why are you not breeding cockers?

Sorry, but this just smacks to me that you think you'll get more money by breeding crossbreeds.

You obviously don't want to put yourself out campaigning your bitch and proving she's a good example to be bred from. Without that you know you won't get top dollar from her pups - so you head for the easy money.

I'm sure you've dressed it up for yourself so that you can try to justify to me, and others like me who invest a lot on bettering the breed that you're doing it for tp the right reasons, but you said it yourself early on. There's not a big market for pedigree dogs from a bitch unproven either as a working or show dog. But boy can you make the bucks by jumping on the designer cross breed bandwagon.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> So let's be honest here... you're not breeding to keep one; you're not breeding to better any breed, or keep certain lines going; you're not breeding for money... so why exactly ARE you breeding? :confused1:
> 
> To put more dogs on this already overcrowded earth? *WHY???? *


That was my question... I don't really get the breeding of the cocker cross poodles?  There are loads of people who love and want cockers, they are extremely popular, gorgeous lovely little dogs.

I don't think that just having a litter and not keeping one? Just to have a litter of crosses?! I really do not get it, just because you researched and they are popular in your area?? :001_unsure:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Taylorbaby
> 
> I researched the popularity of the breed and also *if i could sell my Pure bred cockers I would. sadley i found i could not,* even though my girl has 5 champions in her pedigree. Crazy i know.


Really? Well, that is a concern - they are the second most popular dog in the UK after Labradors - I wonder why you can't sell yours?


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

I can just imagine how the research was done:

'How much do mediocre cocker spaniels pups go for?'

'X'

'Oh, and how much do cocker crossbreeds go for?'

'X x 2'. 

'Hmmm!'


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Really? Well, that is a concern - they are the second most popular dog in the UK after Labradors - I wonder why you can't sell yours?


That's what I thought, I know a judge and there are lots of breeders near me I chat to, most have waiting lists, if the area you are in are overpopulated maybe they shouldn't breed and are too many breeders there? So breeding a litter of crosses not the best idea?? 

EDIT: OH I just noticed your other thread your girl is 6weeks pregnant, so a bit late now


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Taylorbaby
> 
> I researched the popularity of the breed and also if i could sell my Pure bred cockers I would. sadley i found i could not, even though my girl has 5 champions in her pedigree. Crazy i know.
> 
> ...


Sorry Fendoodles, just re-read your posts and I can't agree. You have a bitch with five champions in there, out of a five generation pedigree, so that's sixty four dogs, and five have some sort of award. That's a miniscule amount, less than any of my lot and I consider two of my girls out crosses really.

You're cross breeding because you can't cover costs otherwise? Hmmmm, sorry, doesn't wash as an excuse. Making money should never be the primary goal of breeding, if you happen to make a penny or two, fine, you've been lucky, but planning a cross bred litter to optimise profits, sorry, not with you on that one.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry Fendoodles, just re-read your posts and I can't agree. You have a bitch with five champions in there, out of a five generation pedigree, so that's sixty four dogs, and five have some sort of award. That's a miniscule amount, less than any of my lot and I consider two of my girls out crosses really.
> 
> *You're cross breeding because you can't cover costs otherwise?* Hmmmm, sorry, doesn't wash as an excuse. Making money should never be the primary goal of breeding, if you happen to make a penny or two, fine, you've been lucky, but planning a cross bred litter to optimise profits, sorry, not with you on that one.


I didn't even notice that!! 

You don't make any money and never cover costs breeding, unless you are bloody lucky!!! Well you don't in cat breeding! Certainly wouldn't with a cross! Unless sold too early and no health tests like most are (cats) 

Its meant to be done with a passion and obsession with the breed, its your life and you know pedigrees and standards off by heart and you have a drive for it, can talk about it every second of every day and want to do it the best way possible, you keep back the pick of the litter, well, that's what I think anyway


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> i know, i know we should all stick to our principles and only breed the pure breeds but you do also have to think about what people want. And please dont say it's not supposed to be done just for the money as i agree, *but you do have to cover your costs. *


No you don't! Good breeders do not ensure they cover their costs  They are breed enthusiasts who breed because they love their breed and want to see the breed maintained both in health and type. They do not consider whether they are going to cover their costs. They don't breed for money, neither do they consider money, except to ensure they have enough to cover all eventualities including emergencies if they crop up. They don't use their bitches to make money or fulfil their maternal yearnings and they certainly don't consider the best way to do it to ensure they cover their costs.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

*FORGET THE FLAMING MONEY!*

True breeders breed for one reason only... because they have something to offer the BREED or want to KEEP one of their own breeding, or KEEP a certain line going.

Anyone who breeds for other reasons is no better than every other man jack and his goldfish filling up the pet selling sites on FB punting out puppies for sale, and the puppy farmers with 100 bitches supplying pet shops and selling to anyone who will meet them in a layby or service station.

Too many dogs being bred for vanity reasons and for easy cash.... and cats as well.... and now the general theme is if it moves, breed from it.

As a former responsible and ethical breeder, I am appalled... to the extent I don't want to breed anything, any more, ever. There is no such thing as a good pet home for life, as there was 20 years ago - EVERYONE wants to breed breed breed....

It's such a big black market economy now that Inland Revenue is taking an interest in undeclared income via selling animals.... they are watching all advertising and FB selling pages and I heard of someone being prosecuted last week.


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sorry but i think some of you are really talking double standards now.

Of course you have to cover your costs and maybe if your lucky have a little left over. 

You all go on (not all but some) about how precious your dogs are and that it isn't about the money but i think you are all just telling yourselves that.

If your dogs were so precious to you then why do you go through all the stress and put those precious dogs through it all as well if you didn't think it was to get a little money at the end of it.

And please dont spate of about furthering the line, the lines in most dogs are fine so if your animals meant that much to you you wouldn't do it if you didn't think you could make anything out of it.

Sorry guys, i dont mean to be rude and this is not aimed at all of you but it makes me mad when one person spates off my research into cockerpoos go's as follows 

how much can i sell spaniels

How much can i sell cockerpoos

oh i'll go for cockerpoos

THAT is not how i did my research at all and i got that comment just because i said i prefered the F1's to the F1bs or F2's so wouldn't be keeping a puppy.

If you actually do some research into cockerpoos you will see that the only TRUE cockerpoos are the F1's.

F1b's which are a cockerpoo being bred back to either a poodle or spaniel will have more of one or the other in it so if that kept happening you would eventually breed out one of those and end up back with either a poodle or spaniel.

That is why i dont want to keep a puppy. Instead i would rather wait until my girls last litter whenj she will have spaniel pups and keep one of those so again i would have the choice as to continue with cockerpoos or spaniels. I will also be using the sons of the stud dog so actually my particular line will be furthered, not in the same way some of you like to do it but hey ho.

My girl has had all the genetic tests done as has the stud so the pups will be healthy.as for the kennel club, i'm sorry but i have absolutely no time whatsoever with them.

How can any support a society that allows you to register dogs but say they are not of breed standard so therefor cannot be shown. yet again double standards.

And thanks to television programes that Martin Clunes have done highlighting the appaling conditions that a lot of breeds suffer from due to inbreeding and the way the high members of the kc endorse the culling of pups just because they dont meet the standard is disgusting. I'm not talking about boxers who suffer from deafness in the white strain etc but i am yet again going to state about my other favourite breed the German Shepherd wheras these white babies are classed as not standard, yet they do not suffer from any other health defects thatn any other shepherd and actually originally were bred to be white, but since the kc came along suddenly they are no good.

Get over yourselves. in the begining you All started out to make a little on the side and continue to do so otherwise you wouldn't charge the riduculous prices that you do for your pups.

I know exactly how much it is going to cost me to ensure my pups are healthy, microchipped, vaccinated, flea and wormed, not to mention weaning etc and that is before any risk of complications which i also have covered if god forbid this happened.

please dont keep spouting off at me that i'm wrong in hoping to get a little to put to one side to cover the cost of my next litter(if we go there) as that is what you all do otherwise you wouldn't do it.

I've never known such narrow minded people in my life


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> I've never known such narrow minded people in my life


I think you're on the wrong forum, love.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Narrow minded? You're talking about taking not just one, but more than one litter from your girl, because you can't sell the spaniel pups this time round, so you'll risk her life at least twice to get what you want, cash and a pup. 

Sorry, but that really is just selfish. You can dress it up however much you like, but if she were proven and good enough, and you had the confidence to sell the pups you'd breed spaniels, that much is obvious. Breeding cockerpoos simply to plug the gap and make a bit of cash is not a good reason to breed. 

And no, we don't all make money. Starting planning for my next litter, I'm £3k in the red from my last litter and looking at the best part of spending £1500 at least on tests for my two youngsters. I need to buy another whelping box and other equipment, and am spending God knows how much showing, training and competing with them. I plan one litter from both, if I can, it may turn out to be no litter from either of them depending on how things go. My business plan isn't looking very good so far, good job I've got a proper job to pay the bills isn't it. 

Sorry Fendoodles, but no matter what you've put about health testing etc, it doesn't back up the actual reason why you're breeding. I could understand it if you were passionate about cockapoos and wanted to get involved in a particular cross breed, heaven knows there are so many people churning out litters of them without one health test in place. But despite the health testing, breeding because that's all you can sell just isn't a reason for me, and that is basically what your posts have indicated.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Sorry but i think some of you are really talking double standards now.
> 
> Of course you have to cover your costs and maybe if your lucky have a little left over.
> 
> ...


I take it you will KC register your spaniel pup that you keep back?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Sorry but i think some of you are really talking double standards now.
> 
> Of course you have to cover your costs and maybe if your lucky have a little left over.
> 
> ...


You breed like a back yard breeder even if you do do health tests.

You're right. I hate putting my bitches through pregnancy (the ones that have had a litter) and only do so when they have proven themselves so good (competitively by neutral judges and in the field) that it would be a shame not to continue.

You're talking crap when you say most lines are ok - besides, you're just picking up on 'breeder talk' - it shows how little you know. Keeping lines going - do you really understand what that means cos it doesn't sound like it.

OH, and no, I don't think about money except to ensure I have enough to cover every eventuality. Nothing is spared to ensure that my bitch is cared for and pups have the best start to life. I am breeding to hopefully, bring quality dogs into the world of which I will keep one, money doesn't even come into it.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Sorry to sound a bit thick... What on earth is a Cockapoo


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dingle said:


> Sorry to sound a bit thick... What on earth is a Cockapoo


It's a cocker spaniel x poodle, you can get a variety of *types* depending on the parents.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> It's a cocker spaniel x poodle, you can get a variety of *types* depending on the parents.


Thanks for clearing things up... basically it's just a cross breed with a daft name - any particular reason for crossing these two breeds other than hitting the designer new handbag market or making a few quid


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> *FORGET THE FLAMING MONEY!*
> 
> True breeders breed for one reason only... because they have something to offer the BREED or want to KEEP one of their own breeding, or KEEP a certain line going.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I disagree with that comment - I have lots of friends and work colleagues who are excellent pet homes for life. Out of circa 10 homes only one bred - she was into showing.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dingle said:


> Thanks for clearing things up... basically it's just a cross breed with a daft name - any particular reason for crossing these two breeds other than hitting the designer new handbag market or making a few quid


They have, as a cross breed, been around for quite a long time, longer than some *newly* recognised pedigree breeds. I don't disagree with the breeding of cross breeds, and there are a few who do go about it with a passion for what they're doing, and do all the health tests etc, not just cockapoos, or cockerpoos, whatever spelling you want to use, but other cross breeds for a specific reason, working, competing etc. But I cannot for the life of me fathom out why someone who loves their spaniel wants to breed one litter for cash, and then breed a second litter so they can carry on with that line, again choosing to breed for cash if they can, or at least that's what it sounds like from their posts. I admire their honesty, but don't agree with their reasons for breeding, or their comments about the KC (although I do agree it's not a perfect organisation), or money either, I certainly haven't made a penny and don't plan to make a penny from breeding. I'm sure if I started counting up all the club memberships, petrol/diesel for taking me to and from events etc, I would be out of pocket by thousands of pounds. I've just invested over £4k in a new vehicle that will fit me and the dogs in and allow us to go away for weekends!!


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

So what are the benefits of crossing the cocker and poodle over choosing one of the actual breeds?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Dingle said:


> So what are the benefits of crossing the cocker and poodle over choosing one of the actual breeds?


They just look different, there are no real benefits; you can get a variety of coat types, the grooming requirements are generally at least those of a spaniel. They can have more of a poodle *type* of coat, so there is some validity to a lower shedding type but it's just not predictable, so you wouldn't be able to tell whether a litter would have one or more pup that is lower shedding.

They are prone to the same conditions as both parents, juvenile kidney disease seems to be something that's cropped up a few times, and if you look on the cockerpoo owners club UK (can't remember if that's the right name but should come up on google) they have a really good write up about everything to do with this cross, including testimonials from some owners where they have had serious health problems, to show that they are prone (just as any dog) to the same health defects as the parent breeds - there are lots of breeders who use the *hybrid vigour* thing as a selling point.

They do have a following, not for me, I prefer my dogs a bit bigger and like to train them to do the gundog stuff, but they have, as I said, been around for quite a long time, so not a new cross by any means.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Sorry but i think some of you are really talking double standards now.
> 
> Of course you have to cover your costs and maybe if your lucky have a little left over.
> 
> ...


lol it all comes out in the end 

So you WILL be breeding a litter of cocker spaniels to keep a spaniel back?? But you cant sell them and nether can the breeders in your area?! 

So WHY breed a litter of cockers then?  Will you KC register those pedigree pups? Or choose another registration body as you disagree with them so much?

Can you please tell me how your research went as to be honest that is how it seems, you cant sell cockers, but still want to breed them, you will breed a cocker spaniel cross poodle (Im sorry but I refuse to call it a silly name, its a cross) as they are selling at the moment?! 

Can you not see how this sounds? Maybe its different with 'designer' crosses as you said yourself they go for sooo much money more than pedigrees, can you please tell me why this is?


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Cockapoos have shot up in price due to their popularity and demand. I have always felt they shouldn't be more than either of the parent breeds and with their popularity does come the dodgy breeders turning them out for cash, but that probably goes across for any breed/cross that becomes popular.

They are a joy to own and many go on to have more than one. They are not everyones cup of tea, I appreciate that.
But with our club members not only do we have them as pets but we have them trained as Hearing Dogs For Deaf People, PAT Dogs, Assistance Dogs and Medical Detection Dogs. Lots do Agility and fly ball, so they really are a dog that are more than just their cute look 

As a club we provide info on all aspects of them, though we do not go down the breeder recommendation route, but give common sense advice on breeders and breeding etc...

We recently as a club did a Cockapoo Health Survey of a 100 members to get a snap shot of their health and I have the stats on my website. Sadly not many took the opportunity, which is a learning curve for me, but I hope to do another in 2 years time with more people filling the survey in, so we can get a greater insight.

The club also funds raises for Hearing Dogs For Deaf People which we started last Summer and have raised over £6k which is down to lovely cockapoo owners and enabled us to name ( Harley) and follow a cockapoo puppy in training to be a hearing dog for a deaf person. I have a blog on website to follow his progress.

So for me Cockapoos bring a lot of joy to people including myself 
Cockapoo Owners Club UK - Intro


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Cockapoos have shot up in price due to their popularity and demand. I have always felt they shouldn't be more than either of the parent breeds and with their popularity does come the dodgy breeders turning them out for cash, but that probably goes across for any breed/cross that becomes popular.
> 
> They are a joy to own and many go on to have more than one. They are not everyones cup of tea, I appreciate that.
> But with our club members not only do we have them as pets but we have them trained as Hearing Dogs For Deaf People, PAT Dogs, Assistance Dogs and Medical Detection Dogs. Lots do Agility and fly ball, so they really are a dog that are more than just their cute look
> ...


If they go up in popularity, I don't get why the price would go up? Someone was selling them for £1,500 near me, saying its a one off mating as the poodle is a champion etc! Didn't make sense to me 

Glad to hear of all the good work you are doing


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Cockapoos have shot up in price due to their popularity and demand. I have always felt they shouldn't be more than either of the parent breeds and with their popularity does come the dodgy breeders turning them out for cash, but that probably goes across for any breed/cross that becomes popular.
> 
> They are a joy to own and many go on to have more than one. They are not everyones cup of tea, I appreciate that.
> But with our club members not only do we have them as pets but we have them trained as Hearing Dogs For Deaf People, PAT Dogs, Assistance Dogs and Medical Detection Dogs. Lots do Agility and fly ball, so they really are a dog that are more than just their cute look
> ...


Yes, I agree, they are lovely little dogs - my brother's got a rescue Cockapoo in the USA. What I find, and I think you do too, is detestable, is that the OP is breeding cockapoos as they can make more money for selling these than pure bred spaniels. Like you say, they shouldn't go for more money, particularly from disreputable breeders.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sure if I started counting up all the club memberships, petrol/diesel for taking me to and from events etc, I would be out of pocket by thousands of pounds. I've just invested over £4k in a new vehicle that will fit me and the dogs in and allow us to go away for weekends!!


I daren't tell my OH how much entering a Champ show costs - and as for the petrol and the overnight stays! 

I suppose we average about 1 show every three weeks, and normally that's at least a 250 mile round trip.

And apart from the money side, it's the time invested in it!

I'm still undecided whether I'll breed from Bess. It's unlikely she'll qualify for Crufts next year (unless I get her hair extensions!), and as she's small she won't be doing well when she is out of Yearling next Feb. She's got great bone structure I'm told, but may be one of those dogs that doesn't mature physically until she's 4 years old or so. I certainly don't want to bring pups into the world unless I'm satisfied that she has something to offer the breed. So goodness knows how much money and time I'll invest before I even make the decision whether to breed from her or not!

It would be so easy for me to say I've done all the health tests (which I have), and so I'll go ahead and breed from her whatever. But I just don't want to bring more mediocre pups into the world. The majority of my potential puppy buyers will probably just want a pet, but the way I see it, pet owners should be able to have the best quality dogs they can to - health tested, good temperament, good bone structure which means fewer problems down the line and stunning looks. After all, if people go for a particular breed they want the dream that that breed means to them.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Yes some do ask unrealistic prices, it is frustrating! but I suppose many people will have stories of breeders ( not just cockapoos) charging unrealstic amounts for rare colours or ..or champions etc...sadly with any breeding not just dogs come the ones in it for as much as they can make.

All any of us can to do is advise/educate and hopefully steer people in the right direction.

It wasn't long ago I had members up in arms over Harrods selling them and what they charged Geeezzz!!  we had someone contact them, but they just sent a typical standard response.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Dingle said:


> So what are the benefits of crossing the cocker and poodle over choosing one of the actual breeds?


Well according to Fendoodles they're easier to sell. I can't think of any other reason.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

BessieDog said:


> I daren't tell my OH how much entering a Champ show costs - and as for the petrol and the overnight stays!
> 
> I suppose we average about 1 show every three weeks, and normally that's at least a 250 mile round trip.
> 
> ...


I bought a stunning girl last year, grand champion sister, couldn't wait to show her, new lines, breeding girl that was £850, courier to pick her up was £100, health tests were around £100, stud fee £300. She didn't take, came back from the stud and could not settle, my cats would not accept her and she became very unhappy and shy, I could of easily sent her back to the stud and had a litter, but that just wasn't the point, she wasn't happy and spent most of her time in my room waiting foe me to go to bed  
I just didn't feel it was worth it 'just' to have a litter, she wasn't happy, so I wasn't either.

So I neutered her, £60, rehomed her for £50, loss of: £1260. She went to live with my stud who I also neutered for £50 who was just getting going in his showing but he was really unhappy being un-neutered.

Both are SOoooooooo happy in their new home and new owners are amazing, hear from them everyday, really great decision from the heart, not so good from the pocket!

But that's breeding for you, obviously all done for profit to cover costs and money! rrr: :sneaky2:


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Fendoodles said:


> lostbear said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you Lostbear. where abouts are you in the country as where we are no-one seems to want them. i would love to just breed Cockers and i agree it is very sad
> ...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I get the feeling they're having a break, perhaps not coming back since the general consensus is that breeding with the sole aim of making cash isn't the best reason, or any good reason, for breeding.


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## CockersIndie (Dec 14, 2011)

This thread has made me angry!

Easy money, easy selling. Breed a cockerpoo.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

This attitude doesn't surprise as the breeders probably think they can get more for crossbreeds. You are a hypocrite for saying breeds are inbred when you have no intention of keeping a Cockapoo and are breeding pedigrees to keep one .


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## Ponies78 (Aug 24, 2013)

This is my personal opinion. I don't believe in breeding unless the parents are excellent specimins of dog, health and temperament wise. 

I also don't agree in breeding unless you have homes lined up for puppies. How would you feel if one of your dogs litter ended up abandoned/ ill treated or at a rescue? 

I know this is a broad and fairly uneducated view. But op is a first time novice breeder and I think my views are valid in this case. As I understand it most reputable breeders have a waiting list for future litters usually.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

Ponies78 said:


> This is my personal opinion. I don't believe in breeding unless the parents are excellent specimins of dog, health and temperament wise.
> 
> *I also don't agree in breeding unless you have homes lined up for puppies.* How would you feel if one of your dogs litter ended up abandoned/ ill treated or at a rescue?
> 
> I know this is a broad and fairly uneducated view. But op is a first time novice breeder and I think my views are valid in this case. As I understand it most reputable breeders have a waiting list for future litters usually.


a lovely idea,but in my experience not overly practical if they are destined for pet only homes... i mean, i have people interested in pups next time i breed, but that is a list of interest, not a waiting list! you can't expect most people to wait at least 4 months (at least 5 months for many toy breeds) and thats from the point you put the bitch to stud- not when you decide to find a stud! 
i've had 'waiting lists' in the past, and still had to advertise most of the litter because 6 months is too long for most people wanting a pup to wait- especially when they are a popular breed like yorkies, chis. labs etc...
(in sayinfg that, i'm on a waiting list for a poodle pup in a few years time... but i may well be the only pet home on the list (though i would Love a show quality, i just want a pup)

i wish lists were more reliable though


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## Ponies78 (Aug 24, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> a lovely idea,but in my experience not overly practical if they are destined for pet only homes... i mean, i have people interested in pups next time i breed, but that is a list of interest, not a waiting list! you can't expect most people to wait at least 4 months (at least 5 months for many toy breeds) and thats from the point you put the bitch to stud- not when you decide to find a stud!
> i've had 'waiting lists' in the past, and still had to advertise most of the litter because 6 months is too long for most people wanting a pup to wait- especially when they are a popular breed like yorkies, chis. labs etc...
> (in sayinfg that, i'm on a waiting list for a poodle pup in a few years time... but i may well be the only pet home on the list (though i would Love a show quality, i just want a pup)
> 
> i wish lists were more reliable though


I realise having all pups taken before conception is far fetched, but a first time breeder ought to have some idea where they are going to send their pups to. Those I've known to breed it has been family and friends for the majority.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I wouldn't let any of my family and very few of my friends have a pup from me, I want better homes for them! 

I've already got a few enquiries for my next possible litter, which is over a year away in any case so it is (as far as I'm concerned) just a general enquiry list, nothing *firm* as such. If you research and plan a nice litter, with all the appropriate health tests etc, they do pretty much sell themselves. I didn't think my girl had taken so had done very little *advertising* as such, but I still get enquiries from the information about the litter that's about on the internet.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

i agree its nice to have a list of people wanting to be informed on how the litter/ planning is coming along, its just that many people seem to think that every pup should have a solid home before being conceived- i certainly didn't expect missy to have 7 pups on her last litter, so even if i'd had 4 Definite homes arranged there would still be advertising to do... 
a pity that my breed aren't health tested yet, but just hearing me talk about my dogs and my intentions for a litter is enough to have people wanting to exchange details to be kept posted (the guy i bought a scooter off today actually did just that! lol)


and i'm with you SL... only my sisters would be good enough owners in my family to have a pup- the thought of my aunt or cousins having one sends shivers down my spine!


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi Just something i would like all people to read as almost everyone has slagged me off for wanting to breed a cockerpoo.

Sorry guys, didn't want to put this but i'm sick of the narrowmindedness on here,

Pedigree Dogs Exposed

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

Pedigree Dogs Exposed

Genre

Documentary

Narrated by

Jemima Harrison

Country of origin

United Kingdom

Production

Producer(s)

Jemima Harrison

Running time

60 minutes

Production company(s)

Passionate Productions

Broadcast

Original channel

BBC One

Original airing

19 August 2008

External links

Website

Production website

Pedigree Dogs Exposed was a BBC One investigative documentary, produced by Jemima Harrison, which looked into health and welfare issues facing pedigree dogs in the United Kingdom. It was originally broadcast on 19 August 2008.

The Kennel Club (KC), the governing body of pedigree dogs in the UK that runs the prestigious dog conformation show Crufts, was criticized for allowing breed standards, judging standards and breeding practices to compromise the health of pedigree dogs.[1]

The programme generated much criticism of the Kennel Club. It also caused various sponsors and trade exhibitors to withdraw their participation from Crufts and other Kennel Club events. The BBCwhich has broadcast Crufts for 42 yearswithdrew its coverage of Crufts for 2009, and chose not to renew it for 2010.

The Kennel Club initially denied the filmmakers' assertion that many dogs suffer from diseases and stated that the vast majority of dog breeds are healthy. It also lodged a complaint with broadcasting regulator Ofcom, claiming unfair treatment and editing. Due to strong public opinion, it later rolled out new health plans and reviewed breed standards for every breed. Some breeders have condemned the Club for overreacting. Ofcom's final ruling upheld KC's complaints regarding the lack of a right of reply for some allegations made by the programme but dismissed complaints made in various other areas. The ruling also acknowledges that KC's geneticist Jeff Sampson's views were misrepresented but states that as a whole, the KC was not treated unfairly.

Three separate health reports were commissioned as a result of the programme. Reports by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Associate Parliamentary Group for Animal Welfare and Sir Patrick Bateson (funded by the KC and Dogs Trust) concluded that current breeding practices are detrimental to the welfare of pedigree dogs and made various recommendations that can be taken by the Kennel Club and breeders to improve pedigree dog health.

A follow-up program Pedigree Dogs Exposed - Three Years On was broadcast on BBC 4 on 27 February 2012.[2]

Contents
[hide] 1 Content 1.1 Drastic change
1.2 Eugenics
1.3 Inbreeding
1.4 Health testing
1.5 Positive steps
1.6 Sick champions

2 Reaction 2.1 Sponsorships
2.2 Revised breed standards
2.3 Complaints to Ofcom and BBC
2.4 RSPCA Report
2.5 APGAW Inquiry
2.6 Bateson Report

3 International broadcast
4 References
5 External links

Content[edit source]

The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel can suffer from mitral valve disease and syringomyelia 
A Cavalier King Charles Spaniel was shown to be in agony due to a condition known as syringomyelia, which occurs as a result of the skull being too small for the brain. Veterinary Neurologist Dr Claire Rusbridge described the brain as a "size 10 foot that's been shoved into a size 6 shoe" and estimated that up to 1/3 of the breed suffers from this problem. Another problem that plagues the breed is heart disease. Cardiologist Simon Swift explained that about half of all Cavaliers aged 5 would have heart murmurs and the rate increases, such that by age 10 to 11 almost all Cavaliers would have the condition.

About three-quarters of the 7 million dogs in the UK are pedigree breeds, and the programme revealed that they chalk up 10 million pounds' worth of vet fees every week. Leading geneticist Steve Jones attributed one of the key problems to inbreeding. RSPCA Chief Vet Mark Evans singled out competitive dog showing as responsible.

Drastic change[edit source]

Old photos of the Dachshund, Basset Hound, Bull Terrier, Bulldog, Pug and German Shepherd Dog were shown to illustrate how much the breeds have changed over the past century. The German Shepherd used in the show ring was contrasted with the working German Shepherd, which still looks much like the German Shepherd of old.

The Basset Hound was called a "deformed, congenital dwarf." 
Crufts Judge Terry Hannan insisted that the working German Shepherds are anatomically incorrect, and that it is the show dog that conforms to the breed standard. When it was put to the Chairman of the Basset Hound Club that they were breeding deformed congenital dwarfs, he rejected that accusation, claiming that current Basset Hounds look very much like those of the 1800s. When shown a photo of a Basset Hound from sixty years ago, he was less than impressed.

Countering Bulldog breeders' claims that the breed's extreme traits, such as severe underbite and facial wrinkles, are for historical fighting purposes, historian David Hancock pointed out that "the way in which breeders try to justify the short face, the excessive wrinkling and the physique it now depicts as being traditional is just simply untrue." The programme stated that bulldog heads have become so large that the majority are unable to give birth naturally and puppies must be whelped by caesarian section.

The Boxer breed was presented as suffering from heart diseases and high rate of cancer. One Boxer was shown having an epileptic seizure.

Dogs were initially bred for practical functions such as hunting and guarding, but according the programme, in the middle of the 19th century they became a status symbol, and dog breeding became a sport. The function of the dog then took a back seat to appearance.

RSPCA Chief Vet Mark Evans called the Crufts show "a parade of mutants" and "a freakish, garish beauty pageant that has frankly nothing to do with health and welfare." He pointed out that breed standards take no account of temperament and fitness for purpose.

Eugenics[edit source]

The ridge on the Rhodesian Ridgeback is a distinct characteristic of the breed. The Ridgeback Club's code of ethics states that "ridgeless puppies shall be culled". 
The programme traced the Kennel Club's history to the eugenics movement, on which it said purebred dog breeding is based (see Purebred dogs and eugenics). A Rhodesian Ridgeback breeder interviewed on the programme advocated the culling of healthy ridgeless puppies because breed standards forbid ridgelessness in the breed. The Chairman of the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club stated that she considered ridgelessness a genetic fault. The ridge is a genetic trait, the presence of which is claimed to make the dog more prone to suffer from dermoid sinus. The programme mistakenly claims that the ridge itself is a mild form of spina bifida. (See below) One in twenty puppies is born ridgeless. A section of the code of ethics of the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club was shown to state that "Ridgeless puppies shall be culled."

When asked about the practice of culling healthy puppies, Kennel Club chairman Ronnie Irving denied knowledge of such practices and said that they were not acceptable. It was shown that after the interview, the Kennel Club wrote to the Rhodesian Ridgeback Club condemning the practice and requested that the club review their code of ethics. The breed club said that the Kennel Club knew about the code of ethics, as they have to be ratified by the Kennel Club every year.

Apart from Ridgebacks, other examples of cosmetic culling that were mentioned included Great Danes with nonstandard markings, white German Shepherds, and white Boxers, although it was mentioned that cosmetic culling is not as common as before, as more breeders choose to neuter individuals who do not meet breed standards.

The programme pointed out that selectively bred dogs were in poorer health than mongrels.

Inbreeding[edit source]

Deliberate inbreeding, including mother-to-son, father-to-daughter and brother-to-sister matings was said to result in serious genetic disease being perpetuated in many breeds. A 2006 report by Companion Animal Welfare Council called for major changes, stating that "inbreeding needs to be controlled" and that "animals with genetic defects should be barred from breed shows." Irving rejected the claims in the report, saying that it was based on emotion rather than science.

The gene pool of the 10,000 pugs in the UK is the equivalent of only 50 individuals. 
A 2004 paper authored by the Kennel Club's own geneticist Jeff Sampson mentioned that "Unfortunately, the restrictive breeding patterns that have been developed as part and parcel of the purebred dog scene have not been without collateral damage to all breeds..." and that "increasingly, inherited diseases are imposing a serious disease burden on many, if not all, breeds of dogs." Yet when interviewed for the programme, Sampson claimed that "the vast majority of dogs we register [...] will live long, happy, and healthy lives." A study by Imperial College, London, showed that the 10,000 pugs in the UK are so inbred that their gene pool is the equivalent of only 50 individuals.[3]

Health testing[edit source]

The Irish Setter, one of only two breeds among the more than two hundred breeds registered by the Kennel Club with compulsory health testing. 
It was shown that of the more than two hundred breeds registered by the Kennel Club, compulsory health tests exist only for the Irish Setter and Irish Red and White Setter. The Kennel Club defended the lack of health testing requirements, saying that it would drive breeders away from the Club. The president of the British Veterinary Association Nick Blayney agreed with the Kennel Club, stating that "if it becomes too reactionary and loses the support of the majority, it would cease to have any influence. They are doing the best they can in a very difficult situation."

The programme pointed out that no official system for recording hereditary diseases exists, and claimed that any health screens that exist are "often inadequate or ineffective." In the Cavalier breed, responsible breeders have used heart screening tests since 1995, but because many ignore veterinarian advice to only breed dogs over a certain age, there has been no health progress in that front. The Kennel Club defended the lack of improvement, stating that things could have been worse had nothing been done.

Positive steps[edit source]

The programme acknowledged the Kennel Club's attempts to fix the health issues, in the form of the Accredited Breeder Scheme, and funding for DNA tests, but said neither solved the issue of inbreeding. It also acknowledged that Chairman Ronnie Irving had spoken out about exaggerated traits in some breeds. Some breeds standards, such as the Bulldog's, have been changed to temper the exaggerations. Instead of a "massive head," the new breed standard calls for a "large head." The Kennel Club has also added health and welfare issues to the curriculum for judges. But the programme warned that all that would come to naught if breeders continued to deny the need for change, or interpret breed standards any way they like.

Sick champions[edit source]

The programme showed examples of individuals with serious inherited diseases being crowned show champions. Such individuals are not forbidden from being bred and some go on to produce offspring who inherit the same diseases.

It was reported that the 2003 Crufts champion  a Pekingese  had to sit on an ice pack to have its photo taken. The programme explained that the breed tends to overheat due to its inability to breathe properly, as a result of its flattened face. The dog was revealed to have undergone a soft palate resection earlier, to fix a problem caused by the flattened face. Professor Dan Brockman from the Royal Veterinary College explained that the condition is inherited and is very likely to be passed down to later generations. Despite that, the Crufts champion had sired 18 litters.

The programme stated that people in the dog world who try to do the right thing find it tough going against "a system that often rewards doing the wrong thing." It pointed out that the Kennel Club had started funding research into Syringomyelia in Cavaliers but that breeders were not taking the issue seriously. It also pointed out that because of her proactive approach to the Syringomyelia issue, Cavalier owner Carol Fowler had been subject to vitriolic attacks in online mailing lists. Breeder Margaret Carter also took up the issue after her own dogs were diagnosed with the condition, and she is lobbying for change as part of the Breed Club's health committee.

A Cavalier that won a Best-in-Show was revealed by Carter to have the condition. (One and a half months after the programme aired, Carter was removed from the Cavalier Club Committee for this "breach of confidentiality".) Despite veterinarian advice not to breed from the dog, the dog went on to sire 26 litters, adding to the 8 litters sired before the diagnosis. Dr. Claire Rusbridge expressed her incredulity: "If you took a stick and you beat a dog to create this pain that you could get from Syringomyelia, you'd be prosecuted, but there's nothing to stop you from breeding a dog that can be painful."

When told that the Kennel Club was not doing enough, Irving rejected the claim that many breeds were in trouble, and stated that the Kennel Club and its Charitable Trust are doing much to fix the problems in "some breeds." The programme ended with RSPCA Chief Vet Mark Evans calling for a "complete top-to-bottom review of breed standards and the rules and regulations of dog showing to move it away from its obsession with beauty through to quality of life...".

Reaction[edit source]

The programme, which spanned a production period of two years, was watched by 3.9 million viewers.[4]

Before the programme aired, the Kennel Club issued a statement warning that the programme may be highly biased.[5] After the airing, it released multiple press releases questioning the neutrality and "sensationalism" of the programme.[6][7][8] It also lodged a complaint to broadcasting regulator Ofcom claiming "unfair treatment and editing".[9] The BBC has stood by the journalism in the documentary.

The Rhodesian Ridgeback Club calls "absolute nonsense" the programme's claim that the ridge "serves no purpose" and says the ridge "defines the breed from any other large brown dog without a ridge which might be considered a crossbreed i.e. mastiff x pitbull or boxer x mastiff." Regarding the code of ethics statement which says "Ridgeless puppies shall be culled at birth," the Club points to the statement that follows, "if a breeder finds this morally impossible the puppy shall be homed..." as indication that culling is not mandatory.[10] They have since revised their code of ethics to say "no healthy puppy will be culled."[11]

The RSPCA stated that it is "concerned about the unacceptably high levels of disability, deformity and disease affecting pedigree dogs."[12]

In his speech at the Welsh Kennel Club championship two days after the programme aired, Kennel Club Chairman Ronnie Irving said that "If this programme teaches us anything, I hope it will teach the 'purists' in some breeds that they simply must get a move on and realise that in these politically correct and well informed days, some old attitudes are simply no longer sustainable." Maintaining that the majority of dogs are healthy he said that "the roughly 90% of us who thankfully have healthy breeds must continue to guard against exaggeration and must bring pressure to bear on the laggards, otherwise we will  all of us  continue to be tarred with the same brush."[13]

Dogs Today editor Beverley Cuddy, who said in the programme that "dogs are falling apart" and "the number of genetic problems are increasing at a frightening pace" disputes the Kennel Club's 90% figure. She points to a Kennel Club/British Small Animal Veterinary Association health survey, which shows that 37.4% of dogs had at least one serious health issue by age 5, and adds that the Kennel Club had to discount conditions such as hip dysplasia, slipping patellas and hereditary cataracts to get their 90% figure.[14][15]

On 5 October 2008, Margaret Carter, who revealed the health condition of the Best-of-Breed Cavalier in the film, was voted out of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club (CKCSC) committee by its members in a Special General Meeting for "breach of confidentiality." The Kennel Club has expressed concerns with the decision by CKCSC.[16] In January 2009, backed by grassroots members, Carter sought reelection to the committee, but was elected without a ballot being required as she was the only nominee. She has since withdrawn her nomination and quit the breed club after the club chairman, vice-chairman and secretary announced their resignation in response to Carter's nomination. Carter told The Times: "My only interest was to improve the health of the dogs and it has never been my intention to damage the Cavalier King Charles club where I have been a loyal member for more than 30 years... The top showing people and breeders are the ones most threatened by health testing. They either want to win in the show ring or make money and they don't want health problems talked about." Club chairman Lesley Jupp said that "Her presence on the committee was unacceptable in the circumstances. Some people would have found it very difficult to work with her".[17]

As a consequence of the programme, cat breeders have too come under pressure from veterinary and animal welfare associations, with breeds such as the Persian, Scottish Fold and Munchkin being singled out.[18][19]

HOPE this stops some people from being judgemental. All breeders, dont care who you are, where you come from, or what you breed do it for the money. If you choose to show at the top, then thats your choice and you obviously enjoy that. nothing wrong with this ay all but dont judge others just because they choose not to breed the socalled wonderful purebred dos out there that have all the dreadful genetic conditions that there is.

I know most of you ensure your animals are properly genetically tested but there are also many who could not give a fig. so please stop slagging off the cross breeders, especially the ones who ensure their dogs have the genetics tests to ensure whatever they breed are healthy, when there are plenty of pedigree breeders out there who dont. Thanks enough said.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

FENDOODLES


I think you'll find we are all very aware of PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED.

Nobody is disagreeing that *some* pedigrees now suffer horrendous health problems. You will also find that many of us criticise folk intending to breed from pedigrees in this section. . 

That still doesn't mean it's fine to breed Poodle crosses unless ALL relevant health tests for BOTH breeds are done.

I personally, out in the 'real world', have helped dissuade several Lab owners from breeding their dogs and also a Flatcoat Retriever owner. Both pure breeds.


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## Lizz1155 (Jun 16, 2013)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi Just something i would like all people to read as almost everyone has slagged me off for wanting to breed a cockerpoo... [ quote truncated]


I love playing spot-the-fallacy. Tu quoque, I believe  ? Just because some pedigree breeders are unethical has no relevancy as to whether crossbreeding is ethical or not. (The common example of tu quoque being: just because the medical profession has it's flaws does not suddenly make witchdocter-y a valid form of medicine).


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't understand your point fendoodles... Is there one?
Your not trying to throw 'hybrid vigour' at us are you? Because that would be a bit silly...
If you read through a few threads in this section (and pick at random- it doesn't matter!) you Should notice that everyone agrees that breeding needs to be done responsibly- regardless of breed (apart from the few who disagrees with breeding at all (which I just can't find the sense in!) )


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## Wildmoor (Oct 31, 2011)

Fendoodle do you realise you have posted out dated research and that the PDE was based on even more far out dated research including from the 90s, that it also took 2 years to film a few cherry picked examples?


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Ah, just what the world needs..... more mongrels.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'm still waiting to find out whether or not, the cocker pup they eventually intend to breed and keep back from a litter, will be kc registered or not.


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## Fendoodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm still waiting to find out whether or not, the cocker pup they eventually intend to breed and keep back from a litter, will be kc registered or not.


Hi

More than likely not


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi
> 
> More than likely not


So why breed for a pedigree breed, and not register?

Your posts are full of controdictions, you don't like the kennel club, you accuse pedigrees of being unhealthy, you admit to breeding for cash, but won't admit there are breeders who find that a poor *reason* for breeding, and yet you want a cocker bitch, but are breeding cockapoos because they're more saleable. You are the most mixed up person I have ever, ever come across in my albeit limited experience of dog breeding! It's all a bit like a doggy soap opera, on steroids.


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## Cay (Jun 22, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi
> 
> More than likely not


That Jemima said on her blog she would rather have a working cocker than a Cockapoo. You are breeding for money but you would risk having puppies that are worth £250 to prove that you can't stand the KC and what it does.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Fendoodles said:


> Hi
> 
> More than likely not


So you wont be picking a health tested well proven cocker registered stud then to create her?


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Fendoodles ......I'm guessing from your name you live in the same area as I do , in fact I may go to the same ringcraft club as you .....I have had no difficulties in selling my pedigree pups despite breeding an unusual and specialised breed , neither have my friends who between them breed Portuguese Water Dogs, Min Schnauzers, Malamutes, Min Pins, Shelties, Samoyeds, Bouvier and yep Cockers ! ....we have between us, many puppy buyers prepared to travel long distances and wait many months because we breed high quality dogs.

I'm a tad puzzled that you say you need to breed Cockerpoos in order to cover your breeding costs as there would surely be no costs to cover if you did not breed in the first place 

You obviously love your Cockers and understand the importance of health testing etc so why not breed to improve the breed you love.....get someone experienced in the breed to look objectively at your Cocker bitch so you have an unbiased idea of her strengths and weaknesses, then visit a few Ch shows to look at other lines that may compliment yours .....this way you too will be producing quality Cocker pups that others will want to buy and have the satisfaction of doing something positive for 'your' breed' ......otherwise you are simply breeding for maximum profit and that surely is the hallmark of a puppy farmer .


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Ah, just what the world needs..... more mongrels.


And what is wrong with mongrels  Sorry CD but I find your post pretty offensive - I'm all for responsible breeding but to sarcastically comment about how 'the world needs more mongrels' pees me off - I love mongrels and have always had them and no not designer crosses [which are not mongrels they are crosses] actual mongrels who are healthy and great companions

Comments and posts like yours are what creates the feeling of us vs them and leads people to namecalling such as 'pedigree snob' if apparently mongrels are so inferior like it seems your comment indicates - not helpful in the slightest - we're all dog lovers


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