# What happens to unsold kittens?



## cat burglar (Jun 9, 2013)

After reading some posts on here re slow kitten sales atm, it got me thinking.

What happens to the kittens that are unsold each year? Do they all remain with their breeders as family pets (there must be a point where a limit is reached ??), or perhaps even sold as adults at a later date? 

~Just a genuine curiosity after reading the posts!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

For me and everyone I know, they would remain until they did sell.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Yep, they stay until they a) sell or b) worm their way into your heart so much you can't let them leave. But many people are on the look out of adults - I even have one lady on my list who is waiting for an adult only in a couple of years time.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

They stay until a new home is found. However long it takes. So far it hasn't been a problem. I've never had any problems finding good homes for my kittens.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

So far I have managed to find homes for kittens before they are ready to leave and have people waiting for next litters but if I did have any unsold kittens they would stay with me until they sold or we would keep them, we have a litter due in November and it will be interesting to see if these go as quickly as we have never bred Torties before and all girls will be torties, not sure how much call there is for torties so we may be keeping a few this time lol.
Fingers crossed they will prove popular.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Would any of you breeders consider having more kittens while you still had kittens to sell - or are you at the mercy of when your queen is in call? Presumably you wouldn't get more cats to breed from until the market picked up - or would you continue because you enjoy it? Must be so hard to know what to do?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

It's most unusual for a breeder to end up with kittens unsold. We may come on here and moan about enquiries being thin on the ground but kittens do find homes eventually. When we're used to kittens being booked by 6 weeks old we'll say we have kittens unsold but it doesn't mean we have litters hanging about at 6 months old. I go into major panic mode when I have kittens going for first vacs at 9 weeks and they aren't booked, never had one unsold by 14 weeks  

As to whether we'd have further kittens when we have some unbooked - well a cat is pregnant for nine weeks and sometimes there's an overlap so yes, it could happen. We are to a certain extent at the mercy of our cats' hormones but I don't think anyone would continue to have litters if the house was filling up with unsold kittens.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

Laurac said:


> Would any of you breeders consider having more kittens while you still had kittens to sell - or are you at the mercy of when your queen is in call? Presumably you wouldn't get more cats to breed from until the market picked up - or would you continue because you enjoy it? Must be so hard to know what to do?


I wouldn't plan another litter as long as I have unsold kittens. First of all it's a bad thing risking to fill your home with too many cats (not good for the cats) but I also think it's bad to exceed the demand. Low demand but lots of kittens will only result in desperation, price dumping and breeders starting to sell off kittens to less good homes which is bad for the kittens.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Cerridwen said:


> I wouldn't plan another litter as long as I have unsold kittens. First of all it's a bad thing risking to fill your home with too many cats (not good for the cats) but I also think it's bad to exceed the demand. Low demand but lots of kittens will only result in desperation, price dumping and breeders starting to sell off kittens to less good homes which is bad for the kittens.


Thank you for your honesty.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Yes if we still had kittens to sell and another queen came into call and if she had been having a few calls beforehand then we would put her to stud also as to not put her at risk to pyo etc. It is dangerous to keep a cat going in and out of call with no matings...so it is either putting them back to stud, putting them on ovarid (a form of birth control) or spay which we wouldn't spay an healthy breeding queen until she was ready for retiring.
We may end up having two going to stud at the same time at some point.
We don't plan on having any more queens at the moment, three is enough for us.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

havoc said:


> It's most unusual for a breeder to end up with kittens unsold. We may come on here and moan about enquiries being thin on the ground but kittens do find homes eventually. When we're used to kittens being booked by 6 weeks old we'll say we have kittens unsold but it doesn't mean we have litters hanging about at 6 months old. I go into major panic mode when I have kittens going for first vacs at 9 weeks and they aren't booked, never had one unsold by 14 weeks
> 
> As to whether we'd have further kittens when we have some unbooked - well a cat is pregnant for nine weeks and sometimes there's an overlap so yes, it could happen. We are to a certain extent at the mercy of our cats' hormones but I don't think anyone would continue to have litters if the house was filling up with unsold kittens.


There have been several threads on here about people struggling. It seems a real shame - but I suppose in life people cannot always indulge their hobbies and supply has to meet demand.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Laurac said:


> There have been several threads on here about people struggling. It seems a real shame - but I suppose in life people cannot always indulge their hobbies and supply has to meet demand.


It depends what you breed and where you are. Some areas have lots of breeders of breed X. I'm lucky at present - there are very few of mine north of Edinburgh and Glasgow, and I had more reasonable sounding enquiries than kittens.

Hopefully I'll have 2 litters next year, a second for Lola from a different stud and a first for Eadlin.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> There have been several threads on here about people struggling.


It can be breed specific or to do with area. I expected demand to plummet through a recession but it hasn't. I don't get the same number of enquiries but I do get the same number of worthwhile enquiries. If anything the recession has helped filter out the flighty types who I wouldn't sell to anyway.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

havoc said:


> It can be breed specific or to do with area. I expected demand to plmogydelfet through a recession but it hasn't.


Am really pleased you are doing ok. Am not bemoaning pedigree breeders - l have 2 peds and a mog myself. Just reading threads and drawing conclusions - and if the market isn't there, however much you (generic) might want kittens, if the market isnt there, is it morally correct to carry on?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

There can be demand for certain colours so I wouldn't berate a breeder for doing a mating which would produce those kittens while they still had a couple of 'unpopular' colours from a previous litter. It isn't always as simple as a demand for kittens in general. I have known breeders who have two breeds to give up with one which just falls out of favour and demand dries up. Nobody in their right mind would just keep producing kittens if homes weren't there for them.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Morally correct? Depends if you are are happy with the general idea of pedigrees, and buy in to the "for the good of the breed" approach I guess. But if you are, and your breed is becoming rare, then I think you could argue that it was.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

But equally - however much someone might want to breed -no one has the divine right?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> if the market isnt there, is it morally correct to carry on?


A true breeder doesn't breed to create a saleable commodity. A breeder breeds to further their own lines and we happen to be very lucky that those kittens surplus to our own 'requirements' can attract a price to help offset our expenses. You quite rightly refer to this as a hobby and all hobbies cost money. Those who can't afford to carry on without some income to offset the expense would obviously have to give up. A 'market' for pedigree kittens is a relatively recent thing. Kittens not kept for breeding were given away a hundred years ago. Was it immoral to breed then?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

That is why I mentioned the good of the breed. Mind you we are talking about pet cats and not pandas. And no-one has a divine right to breed cats imo. You have obligations if you do but that is about it.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

All I am saying is that simply from reading this forum there seem to be people breeding kittens who cannot sell them. They seem to struggle with lots of aspects of breeding but because they are registered 'breeders' other pf members are meant to perceive them as knowledgeable breeders. I cannot believe I am the only person who comes on here who isn't stupid. If you breed cats, have never shown cats, and cannot sell your cats - what, apart from health tests, separates you from someone who loves their cat and wants kittens. How can you (again generic) claim to be 'furthering the breed" when you don't even know what colours you might be expecting.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> How can you (again generic) claim to be 'furthering the breed" when you don't even know what colours you might be expecting.


Is that the case with those who are struggling to sell kittens? I'm not sure it is. I will say that the boom years pre recession did give rise to a demand which I said at the time couldn't be sustained. It attracted people into breeding who could well be struggling now. Some of us are old enough to have lived through the cycle more than once and we're still breeding, still passionate about our breed(s), still rehoming kittens without too much problem. I can't give a definitive answer as to what works to keep some people going while others fall by the wayside. The 'market' is only one of many problems which can beset a breeder. It's often said the mark of a true breeder is getting through the bad times, whatever the cause.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Everyone has to start somewhere? In some breed colour doesn't matter so people know a lot more about other things I think, things of much more importance to their breed. I am aware though that I am not a breeder so can't answer in great depth.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> Everyone has to start somewhere? In some breed cothings?oesn't maprotectionism?eople know a lot more about other things I think, things of much more importance to their breed. I am aware though that I am not a breeder so can't answer in great depth.


Surely what colour the kittens might pop out is one of the most fundamental things? Why the protectionism? Am sure there must be breeders out there wincing at what they read.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

havoc said:


> Is that the case with those who are struggling to sell kittens? I'm not sure it is. I experienced brerderat the boom years pre recession did give rise to a demand which I said at the time couldn't be sustained. It attracted people into breeding who could well be struggling now. Some of us are old enough to have lived through the cycle more than once and we're still breeding, still passionate about our breed(s), still rehoming kittens without too much problem. I can't give a definitive answer as to what works to keep some people going while others fall by the wayside. The 'market' is only one of many problems which can beset a breeder. It's often said the mark of a true breeder is getting through the bad times, whatever the cause.


I aren't picking on the true breeder - and I fully appreciate that everyone has to start somewhere. Equally, an expetienced breeder must wince when people play the furthering the breed card with one hand and what colour might my kittens be with the other?


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

I have lost the thread a bit - I didn't really understand what you meant in the last post?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I gave up wincing a long time ago. For many years I have just concentrated on my own ethics and my own reputation


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> I have lost the thread a bit - I didn't really understand what you meant in the last post?


Sorry if I went off on a tangent. Your post inferred that colour didn't matter - I suggested that not knowing what colours a mating might produce was arguably unacceptable for a registered breeder? Would you buy from someone who couldn't tell you what colours might be expected?


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

havoc said:


> I gave up wincing a long time ago. For many years I have just concenmight bed on my own ethics and my own reputation


Probably the best way to be. Thank you for the replies - hopefully you can appreciate why people might be interested.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> A true breeder doesn't breed to create a saleable commodity. A breeder breeds to further their own lines and we happen to be very lucky that those kittens surplus to our own 'requirements' can attract a price to help offset our expenses. You quite rightly refer to this as a hobby and all hobbies cost money. Those who can't afford to carry on without some income to offset the expense would obviously have to give up. A 'market' for pedigree kittens is a relatively recent thing. Kittens not kept for breeding were given away a hundred years ago. Was it immoral to breed then?


IMO a true breeder will work for the breed and balance the breeding according to the demand. If the supply is greater than the demand, what will happen with the surplus kittens? You can only keep so many on your own. You're not creating a healthy environment for the cats if you end up keeping them all.

Where do we find the lowest prices for pedigree cats? Yes, among the most common purebreds where the supply might exceed the demand. Which breeds to we find in the shelters? Yes, moggies mostly but when pedigree cats show up at least in shelters here in Sweden it tends to be Persians (and luckily the breeders are adjusting the previously huge supply of Persians to the lower demand now).

You need to keep a balance. However much I want to develop my blood lines, I can't keep producing kittens if no one wants to buy them. I know that a few old school breeders with common breeds cull from the beginning, but I'm not in the "game" just to kill off the kittens that aren't perfect from the beginning.

Dumping prices on kittens or simply giving them away is rarely a good solution in the long run. It kind of lowers the status of cats in general. Why pay for veterinary care when you can get a new cat for free? Why even bother to vaccinate? Why bother about ID-chipping? Simply, why bothering investing any money in an animal you simply can replace with another one? Yes, this is not at all an uncommon attitude among moggie owners in Sweden (and guess why we have thousands of homeless moggies).

One hundred years ago people did a lot that wasn't necessarily good.


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok - maybe wasn't clear. In a couple of breeds the standard says (more or less) "colour - any except colourpoint".I was just trying to say that for those breeds, there may be other things that are more important that colour when considering a pairing. I didn't mean they wouldn't know basic colour genetics, but if your breed didn't have cinnamon, for example, you wouldn't need to know how it was inherited.


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Cerridwen said:


> IMO a true breeder will work for the breed and balance the breeding according to the demand. If the supply is greater than the demand, what will happen with the surplus kittens? You can only keep so many on your own. You're not creating a healthy environment for the cats if you end up keeping them all.
> 
> Where do we find the lowest prices for pedigree cats? Yes, among the most common purebreds where the supply might exceed the demand. Which breeds to we find in the shelters? Yes, moggies mostly but when pedigree cats show up at least in shelters here in Sweden it tends to be Persians (and luckily the breeders are adjusting the previously huge supply of Persians to the lower demand now).
> 
> ...


Once again - thanks for your honesty.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Laurac said:


> Sorry if I went off on a tangent. Your post inferred that colour didn't matter - I suggested that not knowing what colours a mating might produce was arguably unacceptable for a registered breeder? Would you buy from someone who couldn't tell you what colours might be expected?


I would say most registered breeders know what colours they are going to get from each mating they do as colour genectics is probably the first thing we learn ... Well basic genetics then as we grasp that we go more indepth .. Most breeders also DNA their cat is see what they carry so a stud can be selected better ... Ok sometimes the gene fairly can chuck us a surprise but on the whole we know what colour kitten we will have


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## Laurac (Oct 1, 2011)

Jonescat said:


> Ok - maybe wasn't clear. In a couple of breeds the standard says (more or less) "colour - any except colourpoint".I was just trying to say that for those breeds, there may be othercolour kittenss that are more important that colour this forum considering a pairing. I didn't mean they wouldn't know basic colour genetics, but if your breed didn't have cinnamon, for example, you wouldn't need to know how it was inherited.


But if your breed didn't have cinnamon it isn't an issue. Sorry - I wasn't talking about people giving advice on other peoples matings. I was referring to people saying I have x queen going to y stud - what colour kittens might I get. This scenario occurs on this forum - and it is registered breeders asking the question. Just seems a bit odd.


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Laurac said:


> But if your breed didn't have cinnamon it isn't an issue. Sorry - I wasn't talking about people giving advice on other peoples matings. I was referring to people saying I have x queen going to y stud - what colour kittens might I get. This scenario occurs on this forum - and it is registered breeders asking the question. Just seems a bit odd.


Colour genetics is not a easy subject to take in .. Believe me ... Breeder do ask other breeders just to make sure they are on the right line ... Don't forgot cats can carry many things , so it's always nice to have it confirmed by others


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## Jonescat (Feb 5, 2012)

side issue - what is going on with the quote function?!


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Laurac said:


> Surely what colour the kittens might pop out is one of the most fundamental things? Why the protectionism? Am sure there must be breeders out there wincing at what they read.


For breeding what colour the kittens will be is almost immaterial - producing healthy good type kittens comes first - not what colour they are. Making sure compatible blood groups are mated is much more important that the colour of the kittens.

Yes, it is nice if it is known and no, I don't get it when some breeders don't even know the very basics but I would rather they understood about genetic diseases and the way to produce a healthy, true to type and the standards of point cat first, and then learn their colour genetics.

Some colour genetics is easy - and others require some research or understanding - I struggled with blue based cream type stuff for ages until the right combination of words struck the right chord and I saw I was trying to over complicate things.

SOme very reputable old time breeders still don't get basic colour genetics but they produce fantastic and healthy cats. They are just surprised at times when they produce some colours of kitten.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Dumping prices on kittens or simply giving them away is rarely a good solution in the long run. It kind of lowers the status of cats in general


I can only assume your breed isn't a hybrid breed or if it is you've only come into it once it was established. There are many hybrid breeds, now recognised in their own right which were started by enthusiasts who gave away many kittens while working tirelessly for breed recognition. Until a breed is established the kittens are just crossbreeds. Of course, whilst working towards breed recognition a breeder will attract scorn and derision for breeding such 'moggies'. Mainly the negativity comes from those who are riding on the shoulders of breeders who did exactly the same with their breed many years previously.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> I can only assume your breed isn't a hybrid breed or if it is you've only come into it once it was established. There are many hybrid breeds, now recognised in their own right which were started by enthusiasts who gave away many kittens while working tirelessly for breed recognition. Until a breed is established the kittens are just crossbreeds. Of course, whilst working towards breed recognition a breeder will attract scorn and derision for breeding such 'moggies'. Mainly the negativity comes from those who are riding on the shoulders of breeders who did exactly the same with their breed many years previously.


I run an outcross program myself which means I breed crossbreeds (however registered). I wouldn't dream of giving them away. They can't be shown, they aren't sold for breeding only as pets and they don't look particularly exotic in any way. Still, no way I'm giving them away. They're vaccinated, registred, chipped, insured, neutered and sold. They don't go for the same price as one of my purebred kitten, but they still go for 300-400 euros (which is the lower price range for purebred kittens in Sweden). It's all about getting people to understand what they're actually paying for.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I guess it's whatever works for you and your area. I would rather give a kitten away to someone I know than risk attracting someone looking for a 'cheap' kitten. Here a lower price seems to attract the very sort of person I'd never consider letting my kittens go to.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Cerridwen said:


> I run an outcross program myself which means I breed crossbreeds (however registered). I wouldn't dream of giving them away. They can't be shown, they aren't sold for breeding only as pets and they don't look particularly exotic in any way. Still, no way I'm giving them away. They're vaccinated, registred, chipped, insured, neutered and sold. They don't go for the same price as one of my purebred kitten, but they still go for 300-400 euros (which is the lower price range for purebred kittens in Sweden). It's all about getting people to understand what they're actually paying for.


Tends to be the same here, early gens (eg ticked Ocicats)are sold on the lower end of pedigree prices.


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## Cerridwen (Jul 26, 2008)

havoc said:


> I guess it's whatever works for you and your area. I would rather give a kitten away to someone I know than risk attracting someone looking for a 'cheap' kitten. Here a lower price seems to attract the very sort of person I'd never consider letting my kittens go to.


And why do you assume I'm not careful when choosing homes for my outcross kittens? And people looking for cheap kittens surely won't turn to me and buy a kitten for 300 euros when they can get a purebred for the same price or a moggie for free.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And why do you assume I'm not careful when choosing homes for my outcross kittens?


I really didn't mean to imply that. It isn't that I couldn't find nice people to buy a cheap kitten, I'd just have to deal with so many enquiries which weren't suitable because the price would attract a lot of the wrong sort. My only experience in this is helping a friend who had a kitten returned and we learned very fast to be very vague about price until we'd found the right home. The ad for that older kitten elicited many enquiries and took up so much time. In the main, it was chancers looking for a 'bargain'. Yes, we found lovely people but the time and effort involved in fielding unsuitable enquiries was something I wouldn't want to do too often. It may be easier if you have other kittens so you are advertising a litter anyway. As a one off it was a nightmare.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

How old was the older kitten? Just curious. I know the woman I brought Lola from had a couple of kittens that took longer to find homes (I think one might have been returned) but she sold them at full price.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Barely still officially a kitten - around 8/9 months. The breeder wanted to take it back but had no suitable accommodation so it came here while we found it a 'proper' home. It really would have been easier if one of us had had a litter at the time but as a single rehome it opened my eyes. I'm totally convinced half those enquiries were looking to resell at a profit.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OK, the kitten I was thinking of might have been 20 weeks, so quite a difference. thanks.


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## happysaz133 (Jun 5, 2008)

Good breeders I imagine would keep them until they sold or keep them. 

Regular moggies would probably end up going for free to any old Tom, Dick or Harry. Some moggies will be dumped in boxes by the side of the road though , or along the lines!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> OK, the kitten I was thinking of might have been 20 weeks, so quite a difference. thanks.


At up to 20 weeks I'd expect any kitten to still go at or near full price though any hint of it being an 'unsold kitten' could attract the chancers.


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## cat burglar (Jun 9, 2013)

Thank you all for replying


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