# Gutted



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

My fourth generation Asian kitten, the only one in the litter who survived beyond four days, was found dead an hour ago, aged just under nine weeks. This was quite unexpected and I am not only terribly disappointed (I have waited ten years for this litter), I am also paranoid in case it's something nasty which is about to wipe out all the rest :sad:

Liz


----------



## tellingtails (Jul 28, 2010)

Sorry to hear your bad news Liz, I will keep my fingers crossed it is nothing more sinister.:frown::frown:


----------



## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Oh Liz! I'm so sorry to hear that. I can't imagine how disappointed and upset you must be. xx


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

The poor little thing 

Are you taking her up to the vets for a PM Liz? Do you have any suspicions about what it could have been?


----------



## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry. Awful to lose a kitten at any age but when they're that little bit older.... I hope a PM will at least give you something conclusive so that you don't have to worry about your others.


----------



## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

so sorry to read this Lizward.


----------



## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm so, so sorry, Liz.

Not only must this be devastating on an individual level (losing a kitten is always the hardest thing), but it must also be quite a set-back to your breeding programme.

I hope you find out what the problem was, and that it gives you some peace of mind about your other cats too.


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

oh no liz thats terrible news, I'm so sorry to hear this, what a shame for your breeding programme and for the poor poor kitten too.

What it the same kitten who was very underweight?

Fingers crossed a PM can tell you if its somethign to be worried about in your other cats xx


----------



## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry for your tragic loss. My thoughts go out to you

Katy


----------



## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

How devastating for you Liz. So sad to lose a kitten at any age but doubly hard when it is one you have been planning for for so long.  I do hope it isn't anything to worry about in regard to your other kittens.


----------



## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Awwww what a shame and how awful for you 

RIP little one, my thoughts are with you Liz, hope there's no more bad news for you.


----------



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Oh Liz, I'm so sorry! Tragic tragic news


----------



## David C (Sep 6, 2010)

So sorry to hear this Liz , hugs D


----------



## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

How sad, thoughts with you.


----------



## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

im so sorry liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> oh no liz thats terrible news, I'm so sorry to hear this, what a shame for your breeding programme and for the poor poor kitten too.
> 
> What it the same kitten who was very underweight?
> 
> Fingers crossed a PM can tell you if its somethign to be worried about in your other cats xx


No, that's the odd thing, it's a different kitten - the one who was so underweight is now gaining weight nicely. This one was small as well but showed no signs of being ill other than diarrhoea which was not accompanied by any of the signs that indicate a major problem. The others are all fine at the moment.

My only thought, which isn't a nice one at all, is that perhaps this kitten had hypokalemia. It is just possible that both parents are carriers, it was the first litter for both of them and the line is suspect, I was planning to keep all the kittens until six months to be sure none were hypokalemic, but in the end there was only the one who survived beyond four days. If she was hypokalemic, the combination of low blood potassium to start with, plus diarrhoea lowering the levels further, just might, perhaps, have been enough to cause sudden heart failure. It is only a guess though. The other possibility, I suppose, is that because the kitten was longhaired she was much thinner than I realised and I missed the danger signs. But I had been picking her up specifically with a view to seeing how she felt, because of her being small, so I wouldn't have thought I would miss that.

Liz


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

lizward said:


> No, that's the odd thing, it's a different kitten - the one who was so underweight is now gaining weight nicely. This one was small as well but showed no signs of being ill other than diarrhoea which was not accompanied by any of the signs that indicate a major problem. The others are all fine at the moment.
> 
> My only thought, which isn't a nice one at all, is that perhaps this kitten had hypokalemia. It is just possible that both parents are carriers, it was the first litter for both of them and the line is suspect, I was planning to keep all the kittens until six months to be sure none were hypokalemic, but in the end there was only the one who survived beyond four days. If she was hypokalemic, the combination of low blood potassium to start with, plus diarrhoea lowering the levels further, just might, perhaps, have been enough to cause sudden heart failure. It is only a guess though. The other possibility, I suppose, is that because the kitten was longhaired she was much thinner than I realised and I missed the danger signs. But I had been picking her up specifically with a view to seeing how she felt, because of her being small, so I wouldn't have thought I would miss that.
> 
> Liz


eek I hope its not hypokalemia, you have another cat with that at the moment dont you?

You mention the diarrhoea, was this at the same time as the other kitten got the runs? Just trying to see if it could point to anything else for you hun. How many were in the litter?

I'm sure you weigh your kittens regularly so i doubt you would have missed either a sudden weight loss or her being super skinny, your too experienced for that to have passed you by.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> eek I hope its not hypokalemia, you have another cat with that at the moment dont you?
> 
> You mention the diarrhoea, was this at the same time as the other kitten got the runs? Just trying to see if it could point to anything else for you hun. How many were in the litter?
> 
> I'm sure you weigh your kittens regularly so i doubt you would have missed either a sudden weight loss or her being super skinny, your too experienced for that to have passed you by.


Yes I do have a hypokalemic cat, I have that delight in my lines now. Since I have already waited ten years for the fourth generation, I chose to carry on until the DNA test is available (hopefully not much more than another year), working out the odds, and keeping back all kittens who could possibly be affected until the danger time has passed, and of course not selling any for breeding. But unfortunately with only one survivor in this litter, and no other litters that could test either parent, there's no way of knowing if it was that or not.

I don't weigh them every day at this age but I did weigh this one fairly recently. Yes a few of them have had the runs, but in most cases just for a day and then they've been fine. No-one else has it at the moment.

I just wish I'd spotted it yesterday evening - except that honestly there really wasn't anything much to spot :frown:

Liz


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> No, that's the odd thing, it's a different kitten - the one who was so underweight is now gaining weight nicely. This one was small as well but showed no signs of being ill other than diarrhoea which was not accompanied by any of the signs that indicate a major problem. The others are all fine at the moment.
> 
> My only thought, which isn't a nice one at all, is that perhaps this kitten had hypokalemia. It is just possible that both parents are carriers, it was the first litter for both of them and the line is suspect, I was planning to keep all the kittens until six months to be sure none were hypokalemic, but in the end there was only the one who survived beyond four days. If she was hypokalemic, the combination of low blood potassium to start with, plus diarrhoea lowering the levels further, just might, perhaps, have been enough to cause sudden heart failure. It is only a guess though. The other possibility, I suppose, is that because the kitten was longhaired she was much thinner than I realised and I missed the danger signs. But I had been picking her up specifically with a view to seeing how she felt, because of her being small, so I wouldn't have thought I would miss that.
> 
> Liz


Are you getting a PM done Liz?

Also if you have a problem with Hypokalemia in your breed do you test for it? Did the vet not pick up on anything ... presumably you took her to the vets after the other 3 died?

What an awful situation


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> Are you getting a PM done Liz?
> 
> Also if you have a problem with Hypokalemia in your breed do you test for it? Did the vet not pick up on anything ... presumably you took her to the vets after the other 3 died?
> 
> What an awful situation


I admit I hadn't thought of a PM until people mentioned it here - I have been out all day and had already disposed of the body.

There is no test for hypokalemia, that's the difficulty. Research into it is being done actively by that University vet school in the US whose name I keep forgetting - a project that has involved taking samples from several different countries. The latest update I had said that it might be another year or so before they have the test. There have been two major problems - first, most vets have never seen the condition so it tends to get diagnosed as something else and the kitten is PTS (in fact that happened with one of mine), second, the cat fancy is a very nasty place and so many people simply will not admit to having hereidtary issues in their lines.

When she had the kittens, this one that died overnight was the first to be born, and was followed by a very dead, rotting kitten, then another dead one, a live one that was very weak, and a live one that seemed healthy. The weak one died at two days and the other at four days, leaving the only survivor who was the first one out. Bearing in mind the reproductive anatomy of the cat, the most likely scenario by far seemed to be that infection from the dead kitten had killed two and weakened another two, and had not reached the first one because that one was in front of the infection, so to speak. I have previously (with a different cat) lost an entire litter before birth when one had rotted inside, it's horrible I can tell you.

We did, of course, see the vet after the birth, and the cat had antibiotics, and things seemed to be going very well with the surviving kitten :

Liz


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

lizward said:


> I admit I hadn't thought of a PM until people mentioned it here - I have been out all day and had already disposed of the body.
> 
> There is no test for hypokalemia, that's the difficulty. Research into it is being done actively by that University vet school in the US whose name I keep forgetting - a project that has involved taking samples from several different countries. The latest update I had said that it might be another year or so before they have the test. There have been two major problems - first, most vets have never seen the condition so it tends to get diagnosed as something else and the kitten is PTS (in fact that happened with one of mine), second, the cat fancy is a very nasty place and so many people simply will not admit to having hereidtary issues in their lines.
> 
> ...


I remember the litter you speak of.

I'm sorry Liz and I know your are probably deeply upset by all this, but you didn't think a PM was in order? :confused1: Can you not recover the poor little thing and take her for a PM anyway?

As for the bit about cat fancy world ... those kind of breeders shouldn't be breeding them. Or they should at least be trying to remove such conditions from their lines. I know that not selling their offspring as breeding stock is one thing, but also breeding and selling as pets is something that should be just as seriously considered.

We bang on (well some of us here) about folk not breeding moggies around here. One of the reasons being the fact that pedigree breeders are supposed to be doing so responsibly, to try (amongst other things) eradicate certain illnesses and hereditary conditions from each breed. This isn't just because it's shameful to have such things in your line, but also because selling these cats/kittens as pets is awful!

I would never breed my girl if there was something hereditary in her line that meant any potential new kitten owner would be purchasing a kitten without knowing that at some stage the unmentioned condition could wipe it out in an horrific way.

 it really saddens me that you claim that Liz. If that really is the way the cat fancy world operates (and is not just a few people, you included), then I'm not sure I want to be part of it.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> This isn't just because it's shameful to have such things in your line


I'm afraid it's this very attitude which causes some breeders to keep quiet when sharing information and working together would be so much more helpful. It's not 'shameful' to have a problem, it's bad luck.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> As for the bit about cat fancy world ... those kind of breeders shouldn't be breeding them. Or they should at least be trying to remove such conditions from their lines. I know that not selling their offspring as breeding stock is one thing, but also breeding and selling as pets is something that should be just as seriously considered.


Don't forget that with a recessive gene, you have to have it on both sides to cause a problem. A single gene is never going to cause the cat any problems, the danger is solely for that cat's progeny.



> This isn't just because it's shameful to have such things in your line, but also because selling these cats/kittens as pets is awful!


How is it shameful? It is not as if we set out one day and thought "Hey! Let's find a deleterious gene and get it into my lines!" These things happen and without genetic testing the only kind of testing available is test mating - which would break the GCCF rule about breeding kittens only when there is a reasonable expectation of a healthy life. What WOULD be bad would be selling a kitten that you know might have a problem, without telling the buyer, and then refusing to take any responsibility if that problem then materialises



> I would never breed my girl if there was something hereditary in her line that meant any potential new kitten owner would be purchasing a kitten without knowing that at some stage the unmentioned condition could wipe it out in an horrific way.


And neither would I. However with some breeds (not yours) the gene pool is already in such a disasterous state that if you start removing any cat that could potentially be a carrier (bear in mind that recessive genes can be carried for many generations) you would cause far bigger problems than the one you are trying to remove.



> it really saddens me that you claim that Liz. If that really is the way the cat fancy world operates (and is not just a few people, you included), then I'm not sure I want to be part of it.


Well, I could tell you some horror stories about the way it works, but I'm afraid the chances are very high that you will yourself be on the receiving end of it sooner or later. Many cat breeders are really quite unpleasant to anyone they regard as any sort of rival.

Liz


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I would never breed my girl if there was something hereditary in her line that meant any potential new kitten owner would be purchasing a kitten without knowing that at some stage the unmentioned condition could wipe it out in an horrific way.


In which case you don't breed. Everything is genetic, predisposition to cancer and many other diseases is genetic. Every living being is going to die of something, exactly what and when depends to some extent on their genetic makeup. For all I know I have bred cats with a genetic predisposition to something which sees them die at 12 years old instead of 15. Any argument which says you can only breed any species if you are absoloutely sure the genetic makeup is so robust the offspring will never succumb to any disease is beyond all sense.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

The word 'shameful' was probably the wrong word. So I apologise for that 

Havoc, you know what I mean about hereditary conditions (I hope ). Though if I did discover (after a few more years of breeding!) that I had a line that was producing kittens who were predisposed to cancer or something, then I would stop breeding from that line.


----------



## Atlantys (Aug 24, 2010)

Aurelia said:


> Though if I did discover (after a few more years of breeding!) that I had a line that was producing kittens who were predisposed to cancer or something, then I would stop breeding from that line.


Of course you would. I hope any of us would. But I think that part of Lizes point is that, just as there's no test for hypokalemia, there's no test for a predisposition towards getting cancer at 12.

The point is, if you were breeding for 12 years before the the kittens from your first litter died 3 years early, there would be a lot of pet kittens out there with the potential to get the disease, and some cats that had been used for breeding in that time.

Of course you didn't do it on purpose, but that's the problem with recessive genes: there's no way of knowing until it's too late.

It's only by doing the matings and the watching the kittens that you can tell there is a problem.

I'm sure there isn't a good breeder out there who doesn't wish that there was a test for every deleterious recessive gene, but until there is we have no way of knowing.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Havoc, you know what I mean about hereditary conditions


I don't really because years of experience tell me it simply isn't quite as black/white or right/wrong as you'd like it to be. Recessive genes don't conveniently show up in whole litters at a time with an obvious result and however friendly I remain with my buyers, for however many years, there's no way they all have post mortems carried out when their cats eventually die. It would be lovely to say I could guarantee to have never bred on a deleterious gene but it would be a foolish claim.


----------



## Aurelia (Apr 29, 2010)

Atlantys said:


> Of course you would. I hope any of us would. But I think that part of Lizes point is that, just as there's no test for hypokalemia, there's no test for a predisposition towards getting cancer at 12.
> 
> The point is, if you were breeding for 12 years before the the kittens from your first litter died 3 years early, there would be a lot of pet kittens out there with the potential to get the disease, and some cats that had been used for breeding in that time.
> 
> ...


+



havoc said:


> I don't really because years of experience tell me it simply isn't quite as black/white or right/wrong as you'd like it to be. Recessive genes don't conveniently show up in whole litters at a time with an obvious result and however friendly I remain with my buyers, for however many years, there's no way they all have post mortems carried out when their cats eventually die. It would be lovely to say I could guarantee to have never bred on a deleterious gene but it would be a foolish claim.


I do get what you're saying, all of you. But surely if you get just one case of something that could be hereditary you try and find a way to breed it out of your lines, or simply stop breeding from the lines that threw up the condition? In fact personally I would do the latter immediately if just one cat/kitten was diagnosed with it.

Besides, since Liz never had the kitten post mortemed she will not know for sure if it was that.

Liz, as a breeder of many years I don't understand why a PM never occurred to you. Do you not routinely have one done if a cat or kitten dies suddenly? If nothing else but to make sure there isn't a horrid illness about to wipe more out?

I'm still a newbie to this breeding malarkey, and I'm trying to understand all there is to know, so hearing from experienced folk is enlightening. It is also making me think again about whether or not I'm cut out for this.


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> But surely if you get just one case of something that could be hereditary you try and find a way to breed it out of your lines, or simply stop breeding from the lines that threw up the condition? In fact personally I would do the latter immediately if just one cat/kitten was diagnosed with it.


What percentage risk would make you do that? It's dead simple if you are talking about the simplest 1 in 4 chance from a mating between two cats both carrying a fatal recessive and no breeder would dream of repeating that. What about the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 risk of a polygenic trait? What if that trait didn't manifest itself until the cat was 12 years old? There could be a further 10 generations in the breeding population by then.


----------



## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

lizward said:


> second, the cat fancy is a very nasty place and so many people simply will not admit to having hereidtary issues in their lines.


I would agree with that.
Many people are in cat/dog breeding are in it for personal gain, either financial gain or "showing" gain. Few are there simply for the good of and love of the individual cats/dogs. 
So "disease" especially if it is hereditary is a bad word and a word that they have never heard of - in regard to their own lines anyway.


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Aurelia said:


> I do get what you're saying, all of you. But surely if you get just one case of something that could be hereditary you try and find a way to breed it out of your lines, or simply stop breeding from the lines that threw up the condition? In fact personally I would do the latter immediately if just one cat/kitten was diagnosed with it.


But you have not yet been waiting for that one litter for ten years. When you have, you might feel rather differently.



> Liz, as a breeder of many years I don't understand why a PM never occurred to you. Do you not routinely have one done if a cat or kitten dies suddenly? If nothing else but to make sure there isn't a horrid illness about to wipe more out?


No I don't. My experience so far (admittedly not recently) is that there is rarely anything much they can tell you. I remember about 17 years ago I had my only litter of Chinchillas (cats!) ever, and two out of the three dropped dead at ten weeks with no symptoms at all. I had PMs done and the vet could tell me nothing, it was just throwing good money after bad. And that isn't the only time. The only remotely conclusive PM I ever had done, for which I had to drive a freshly euthanised kitten a hundred miles or so to Bristol, at a time when I could afford neither the petrol nor the vet fees, was "we think it was dry FIP" - a conclusion I had reached myself long before. I was really really broke at the time and then a close friend died and I was unable to attend his funeral due to lack of petrol money. I would rather have attended the funeral than spent that money on a PM that told me nothing. I rather lost faith in PMs after that but to be fair it is perhaps time I gave it another chance.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> So "disease" especially if it is hereditary is a bad word and a word that they have never heard of - in regard to their own lines anyway.


The tragedy of this issue in my lines is that on one side the issue was known about. It's just that the stud owner (who has now given up) knew nothing at all about genetics and genuinely did not know what "your cat has sired a hypokalemic kitten" meant, so she carried on breeding from that boy for another three years and then replaced him with another closely related boy from the same source. If the cat fancy was different, if she felt able to come round the shows and say "my boy has sired a hypokalemic kitten, what does that mean?", if she felt able to mention it on forums like this one, she would likely have stopped there and then and looked for another boy from unrelated lines. That is, if she could have got anyone to sell her another boy, because that is another issue. As it is, the boy concerned was used widely and this gene could be all round the breed by now, but of course unless people will admit to it, nothing can be done to stop it.

Liz


----------



## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The problem with a pm is that you have to have some idea of what you are looking for before you start. Do you run a tox screen in case of enviromental factors? What do you test for? We can only test for what we know and we don't know everything. If you suspect a something like a heart problem then you may well find physical evidence - great, you have an answer. Unfortunately it isn't always that simple. If only it were.


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

If i remember rightly Hypokalemia is something liz is very pasisonate about, and without genetic tests the only screening is in fact test matings coupled with extensive knowledge of your lines.

Also from memory i think the stud who seemed to be the first carrier of this condition was very very very widely used, and so this is a ticking time bomb in any breed with burmese heritage. This includes the asians, but also the rexes amongst others to whome burmese were recognised outcrosses.

I do agree that perhaps a little more forethought should have happened with regards to the post mortem, as the more knowledge gained the better. Knowledge can come from a negative result post mortem, if you are sure it was hypokalemia then you will know that its virtually impossible to detect in its early stages via pm. No news can be news.

What i cannot bring myself to do is to berate liz for doing a test mating, the gene for hypokalemia is theoretically so wide spread that to remove all the lines linked to this stud would be disasterous for the breed. I used to think in such black and white terms but have had my mind changed for me. 

Fingers crossed for a genetic test soon.

I have mentioned to liz in pm about the possibility of a bacterial infection in the queen/stud as they were both maidens. In this case a simple test at the vets could rule out a potential kitten killer.

x


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

oh dear my spelling! apologies ladies, i am on a date tonight... and crapping myself would be an understatement! :lol:


----------



## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/102702-hypokalemic-kitten.html

liz's thread about gordon for anyone interested... hope you dont mind liz. If its a problem grab a mod to remove it, as i'm off out x


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

No problem at all. I am very open about this. The irony of it is that my own outcross line was always totally free of it, it came from two of the three new cats (one of which was a stud) that I bought in when I returned to breeding. I had to bring in new cats otherwise I would have been doing half-sib matings all the time.

Liz


----------



## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> oh dear my spelling! apologies ladies, i am on a date tonight... and crapping myself would be an understatement! :lol:


Have fun!

Liz


----------

