# co-owning a dog/owning in partnership



## Tigerneko

This is an option that has been offered to me in the last few days, however I don't know much about the pros and cons of it. It's only been spoken about briefly but it has definitely given me something to think about. Basically my situation is that I want a pup to show but can't always make the shows (I work 2 weekends out of 4). The lady that has mentioned the co-ownership to me said that the pup would be owned by myself and herself but he/she would live with me (although I would not pay full price for the pup, we'd probably go halves) - I don't know yet how things would work financially regarding show entries, vet bills, insurance (that is something i'd like advice on if possible - are there set 'rules' or a general consensus of who pays for what, or is it just what you agree on between yourselves?)

This lady has much more experience and knowledge than I will ever probably have - so from a learning and 'newbie' point of view, I would think it could possibly be a good way of starting out with 'my own' dog (obviously not 100% mine but my name would be on the papers and he/she would live with me and hopefully be handled by me mostly). We only live a few miles apart & attend the same training clubs, so getting together to see/train/show the dog wouldn't be an issue. Obviously I need to speak much further with her about it as it has only been briefly mentioned so far, but for my personal situation it certainly does have its benefits, and I am having a very serious think about it.

So, what are the general pros and cons? I know many people would not personally do it, but as a relative newbie who can't commit to attending loads and loads of shows, it has it's benefits. I also don't have a car at present, so actually getting to shows is a problem in itself if I am 'on my own' with the dog - and the dog will be of a different group to our MT, so most champ shows will be on different days - including Crufts! But that's fine, it'd just mean I get to do two days every year 

The litter is not planned until much later in the year so I've got plenty of time to think about it and ask questions, and there is no pressure on me at all to say yes or no, but in principal it sounds a good idea for me personally - I just need some more experienced folks' opinions - I know co-ownership is not for everyone, but given my situation, what do you think? What are the general pros and cons - mainly the cons, as you can see, I have thought about how it could be beneficial to me, but there are probably a few negatives also that I have not thought of, and I really want to be able to make a well informed decision, either way.


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## MrRustyRead

BUMP


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## Rafa

I think you would need to sit down with the Breeder and go through absolutely everything ........ who pays for insurance, vet bills, etc. One important point to get very clear is whether the Breeder wants to retain breeding rights.

If you take a bitch, the Breeder may well want a puppy back and you need to agree how many litters she expects and be happy with it.

Do you know this person fairly well and do you trust her?


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## Tigerneko

Sweety said:


> I think you would need to sit down with the Breeder and go through absolutely everything ........ who pays for insurance, vet bills, etc. One important point to get very clear is whether the Breeder wants to retain breeding rights.
> 
> If you take a bitch, the Breeder may well want a puppy back and you need to agree how many litters she expects and be happy with it.
> 
> Do you know this person fairly well and do you trust her?


I've known her since we started showing just over 12 months ago - I don't know her massively well but do chat to her a lot at shows and such, she's an experienced exhibitor and breeder so I certainly trust her in that respect, but I would certainly want to sit down and speak more with her and get to know her more before I went ahead with the idea.

I would be happy for her to breed if we were to take a bitch on (obviously depending on her health test results), but the bitch would probably go back to her to whelp, which is fine by me - I would like to play a part though and be there if possible when the pups were born as it would be a fantastic opportunity to learn.

As I say, I haven't decided by a long stretch yet, I am going to take a sort of cynical view on it - I want to hear as many negatives as possible really as I know there are benefits for me but I want to see both sides of the coin, and there may be pitfalls and issues with it that I haven't thought of  I will be seeing her and watching the breed judging at Crufts where I can meet a few more of the people in the breed and find out a little more.

It's an exciting opportunity and it sounds really good but I am trying not to be sort of blinded by the excitement of it, I do want to think logically about it and not go in all guns blazing like I have a habit of doing with things :lol:


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## Dober

There are lots of different types of co-ownerships and everyone has different rules and requirements in their contract. Some contracts the owner and breeder agree to go 50/50 on cost of puppy and show fees, then when it comes to breeding split the costs/any profit 50/50. Other contracts, the owner pays for everything and the first litter will be bred under the breeder's affix or the co-owner will get first pick of litter, or they might just want to have their name on the paperwork for stud book numbers ect.

First and foremost I think it's important that the co-ownership is mutually beneficial and you are both up front and honest with each other from the very beginning about your intentions and thoroughly talk out all the different potential scenarios so everything is 100% clear.

I think a co-ownership is a great thing for a newcomer to get a quality show puppy and have the support of a mentor along the way. I have however seen some very what I would consider unfair contracts which in my opinion take advantage of newcomers and a few people have ended up falling out with their breeders over them.

As you know my girl is on a co-ownership with her breeder, I don't really like to post private agreements in public spaces but feel free to drop me a message if you would like to discuss it


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## Rafa

It does sound exciting and there is the potential for you to have a lot of fun.

What breed are you thinking of? x


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## Tigerneko

Dober said:


> There are lots of different types of co-ownerships and everyone has different rules and requirements in their contract. Some contracts the owner and breeder agree to go 50/50 on cost of puppy and show fees, then when it comes to breeding split the costs/any profit 50/50. Other contracts, the owner pays for everything and the first litter will be bred under the breeder's affix or the co-owner will get first pick of litter, or they might just want to have their name on the paperwork for stud book numbers ect.
> 
> First and foremost I think it's important that the co-ownership is mutually beneficial and you are both up front and honest with each other from the very beginning about your intentions and thoroughly talk out all the different potential scenarios so everything is 100% clear.
> 
> I think a co-ownership is a great thing for a newcomer to get a quality show puppy and have the support of a mentor along the way. I have however seen some very what I would consider unfair contracts which in my opinion take advantage of newcomers and a few people have ended up falling out with their breeders over them.
> 
> As you know my girl is on a co-ownership with her breeder, I don't really like to post private agreements in public spaces but feel free to drop me a message if you would like to discuss it


Ahhh, I didn't know you were in a co-ownership! I'm sure you've probably told me but I have a memory like a sieve 

I am looking at it in the way you have said - as a newbie and definitely an 'unknown', having a partnership with someone more well known is definitely a good way to start, and I know she has the experience and knowledge to be a fantastic mentor. I find a lot of show things difficult to get my head around, rules and technicalities are definitely my weakpoint (I just like running around a ring with a dog and being handed a rosette if i'm lucky LOL) so having someone alongside me to explain things VERY slowly :lol: and make sure I don't make any silly newbie mistakes will be wonderful for me. I have also found that owning/showing a dog on your own as a newbie can be difficult in the way that people are supportive and like to pat you on the back and say 'well done', but it can be hard to get real advice and help from people as at the end of the day, you are still their competition and they don't necessarily want to give away the tricks of the trade, so to speak - so to co-own with some experienced means I should hopefully learn all that freely as she will obviously want the dog to do well!

I do need to find out where i'd stand regarding handling - it's that that I want to do more than anything, so i'd really prefer it if she allowed me to handle at the shows I was able to attend, otherwise, if she wants to be the sole handler of the dog, I am just putting myself into the same position that i'm in now - looking on from the ringside wishing I was in there!

I will PM you if you don't mind, just at my mums' at the moment and their keyboard is on its last legs, so I will do it when I get home and can type without having to punch the keyboard :lol:

Thank you for your help


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## 8tansox

I think you'd really need to think long and hard before entering into such a relationship. 

There were two members on this forum a few years ago, they'd known each other for years (or so they thought), all I will say on the subject is that it went very very wrong indeed. The experienced breeder turned out to be a liar and untrustworthy and dropped her "friend" in the mire well and truly. 

I was asked a few years ago to do the same thing, I'd "look after" the bitch, let her have a litter of puppies and the other party would do all the paperwork etc. and find suitable homes etc. I personally didn't give it a second thought. 

It would be interesting to learn of successful partnerships though, I've only ever heard of disasters.


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## Sled dog hotel

If I was going to consider it I would only go into it with someone who I had known very well and trust completely and who I knew had the same ethics and goals as I did. It can be a very complicated affair, and is far from just a matter of who lives where, and who will show the dog and how the bills will be divided up. There is a lot to consider and a lot of things to be set out in the contract. Co-ownership also involves breeding most of the time, not just from the female point of view but a stud point of view too I believe. Its not just a matter of who has the bitch and where she whelps and the puppies will be raised, but where the pups will end up and what rights you have as far as they go.

Personally I haven't got any interest in showing, so its something I wouldn't likely be interested in anyway for that reason, but even so, knowing that someone has rights and a say in what happens to my dog, and that there may be a possibility that it isn't something Im always going to like or agree with, however cast iron initially the contract may seem then personally I don't think its something I could ever do. This is though written from purely a personal point of view and how I personally feel about it.

Although American the link below is written by both a lawyer and person who shows dogs, and raises some good pointers and tips for show dog co-ownership and contract agreements.

Tips for Show Dog Co-Ownership Contract Agreements


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## Tigerneko

8tansox said:


> I think you'd really need to think long and hard before entering into such a relationship.
> 
> There were two members on this forum a few years ago, they'd known each other for years (or so they thought), all I will say on the subject is that it went very very wrong indeed. The experienced breeder turned out to be a liar and untrustworthy and dropped her "friend" in the mire well and truly.
> 
> I was asked a few years ago to do the same thing, I'd "look after" the bitch, let her have a litter of puppies and the other party would do all the paperwork etc. and find suitable homes etc. I personally didn't give it a second thought.
> 
> It would be interesting to learn of successful partnerships though, I've only ever heard of disasters.


oooh i'm wracking my brain now to try and remember who that was! What breed was it? Was it Rotties?



Sled dog hotel said:


> If I was going to consider it I would only go into it with someone who I had known very well and trust completely and who I knew had the same ethics and goals as I did. It can be a very complicated affair, and is far from just a matter of who lives where, and who will show the dog and how the bills will be divided up. There is a lot to consider and a lot of things to be set out in the contract. Co-ownership also involves breeding most of the time, not just from the female point of view but a stud point of view too I believe. Its not just a matter of who has the bitch and where she whelps and the puppies will be raised, but where the pups will end up and what rights you have as far as they go.
> 
> Personally I haven't got any interest in showing, so its something I wouldn't likely be interested in anyway for that reason, but even so, knowing that someone has rights and a say in what happens to my dog, and that there may be a possibility that it isn't something Im always going to like or agree with, however cast iron initially the contract may seem then personally I don't think its something I could ever do. This is though written from purely a personal point of view and how I personally feel about it.
> 
> Although American the link below is written by both a lawyer and person who shows dogs, and raises some good pointers and tips for show dog co-ownership and contract agreements.
> 
> Tips for Show Dog Co-Ownership Contract Agreements


Thank you for all that - especially that article, very useful, I have bookmarked it 

Yep, there's an awful lot to think about other than the basics of who has the dog and who shows it, i'm sure was I to take it any further, we'd sit down and really discuss everything. I'd like to have a very tight contract drawn up.

What I am mainly missing is actually handling a dog, not necessarily owning one (I already have two dogs anyway), so if this doesn't work out, I may just put out the feelers and see if there is anyone local who would like to have someone handle a dog for them, which again is difficult when I am a newbie with very little handling experience, and also no transport, so it would have to be someone who is already at the same shows as us, or would be willing for me to go along with them. There is one lady who used to show who lives very near to me, she has Smooth Collies (which are a breed I am interested in) and due to poor health cannot show her dogs any more - but she also doesn't have any transport so I would still struggle to get the dog to shows on the days that didn't fall in with my dad & his dog. This could be a better option though instead of getting involved with a full blown co-ownership.

Like I say, it's very very early days (it's literally just something that was mentioned in conversation) and I don't need to say yes or no either way yet, I am going to look into it as much as possible but may also put my idea across - I know the lady offering the co-ownership has a few dogs so may also just be glad of the offer of another handler, without any 'official' ties.


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## Sled dog hotel

You might have gone already but have you been to ring craft classes? There may be one near enough to you if you haven't there is a bit about them on the Link. Apparently they are not always just for people who want to get seriously into showing although you do, so it might be worth exploring.

Ringcraft classes


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## Bijou

We did something like this ....our last litter consisted of only two pups a dog and a bitch, they were both lovely quality and we seriously considered keeping both. However our neighbour had been on our waiting list for a bitch puppy for some time and so we suggested selling her the bitch puppy on the proviso that it would be shown , we would enter the bitch, collect her on the day of the show and show her ourself. As it turned out our neighbour came along to the first show , took her bitch in the ring , won best puppy with her and was hooked from then on .


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## emmaviolet

I'm just subscribing into this thread.

It's something that interests me in a way.

I wouldn't want a full co-ownership, but I would like to show/be involved in showing, but my health means that I cannot commit fully to going to show upon show and I have been wondering lately if it is possible to have a dog to show and the breeder campaigns it, at least for a portion of the time.

Good luck TN, I hope everything works out how you want it to. You're so dedicated that I would imagine you to be a great resource as part of a 'team' in the ring!


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## Tigerneko

Sled dog hotel said:


> You might have gone already but have you been to ring craft classes? There may be one near enough to you if you haven't there is a bit about them on the Link. Apparently they are not always just for people who want to get seriously into showing although you do, so it might be worth exploring.
> 
> Ringcraft classes


Yes, I am on the committee of our ringcraft club lol  and this is how I met the lady who has offered me the co-ownership, we go to the same clubs and she is always at the same open shows as me 



Bijou said:


> We did something like this ....our last litter consisted of only two pups a dog and a bitch, they were both lovely quality and we seriously considered keeping both. However our neighbour had been on our waiting list for a bitch puppy for some time and so we suggested selling her the bitch puppy on the proviso that it would be shown , we would enter the bitch, collect her on the day of the show and show her ourself. As it turned out our neighbour came along to the first show , took her bitch in the ring , won best puppy with her and was hooked from then on .


Ahh, it's good to know it worked out! How did you go on once your neighbour got more involved, did you carry on with the co-ownership or has your neighbour taken full ownership? I am very wary of doing it as there is so much that can go wrong, but this is why I am asking on here I suppose and i'm glad to hear of people who have done it and its' worked out well 



emmaviolet said:


> I'm just subscribing into this thread.
> 
> It's something that interests me in a way.
> 
> I wouldn't want a full co-ownership, but I would like to show/be involved in showing, but my health means that I cannot commit fully to going to show upon show and I have been wondering lately if it is possible to have a dog to show and the breeder campaigns it, at least for a portion of the time.
> 
> Good luck TN, I hope everything works out how you want it to. You're so dedicated that I would imagine you to be a great resource as part of a 'team' in the ring!


Yes, I am in a similar position but it's not my health that prevents me from getting to shows, just a combination of no transport and working every other weekend (usually the weekend of every show I want to attend ).

It's quite commonplace in America and I don't think it's unusual to see a dog have more than two owners, some of them have a ridiculous amount of co-owners! It's obviously not as popular over here (I suppose because our country is so much smaller & shows less spread out, there is less need to have owners/handlers all over the place to campaign the dog) but I do think it is catching on a little more. The lady that has mentioned it to me has been showing a long time and I think already has co-ownership of a few dogs, so she knows what she is doing. I just need to speak to her to make sure that what I want out of it and what she wants out of it actually matches up, and that things work out fairly. I am certainly not under any obligation to say yes or no yet, and the litter won't be due until the end of the year so I have plenty of time to think about it yet and work it out. I will be meeting up and speaking to her (and others in the breed) at Crufts this week


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## MerlinsMum

It's something I would be very interested in doing, as I won't be able to have another dog for some years yet, but would really like to get involved in showing.


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## vet-2-b

Inca is in part ownership with me and her breeders and it works brilliantly, I get lots of support when it comes to showing and aspects of the breed  if you want to know more feel free to message me on here or on fb


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## Spellweaver

We have seen it fom both sides - one of Evie's pups, Neo, is co-owned by ourselves and a couple of people who wanted a good dog but were not bothered about showing. The agreement was that to all intents and purposes Neo is their dog - but tjat we would retain the right to show him.

On the other side, my niece has Gracee in co-ownership with the owners Caleykiz kennels - and again Gracee is her dog, lives with her, but they have an agreement about what will happen if/when they breed her.

In short, there are as many different situations as there are people and dogs. The main things to remember are:

Make sure you know what the co-owners expectations are, and that they know what yours are, especially with regard to breeding.
Get everything in writing, signed by both parties - no matter how much you trust someone - even best friends can fall out.
Don't be cajoled into doing something you feel you don't want to do.
If you feel uncomfortable about any part of it, trust your instincts and don't go ahead


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## Tigerneko

vet-2-b said:


> Inca is in part ownership with me and her breeders and it works brilliantly, I get lots of support when it comes to showing and aspects of the breed  if you want to know more feel free to message me on here or on fb


I may just have a word with you about it at Crufts if you don't mind?


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## Tigerneko

Spellweaver said:


> We have seen it fom both sides - one of Evie's pups, Neo, is co-owned by ourselves and a couple of people who wanted a good dog but were not bothered about showing. The agreement was that to all intents and purposes Neo is their dog - but tjat we would retain the right to show him.
> 
> On the other side, my niece has Gracee in co-ownership with the owners Caleykiz kennels - and again Gracee is her dog, lives with her, but they have an agreement about what will happen if/when they breed her.
> 
> In short, there are as many different situations as there are people and dogs. The main things to remember are:
> 
> Make sure you know what the co-owners expectations are, and that they know what yours are, especially with regard to breeding.
> Get everything in writing, signed by both parties - no matter how much you trust someone - even best friends can fall out.
> Don't be cajoled into doing something you feel you don't want to do.
> If you feel uncomfortable about any part of it, trust your instincts and don't go ahead


Yes I think the agreement here will be similar to Gracee's co-ownership. I'm not sure where we will be regarding handling - I would like to be able to handle the dog, it's down to the fact that my dad has taken over handling (much to my disappointment & frustration!!!) that I am now needing a dog to show, so if the other lady stipulates that she will be handling the dog then it's a waste of time really, but I will make it clear that I want to handle the dog at any show I am able to attend. I would certainly like to handle in breed classes, if the dog was to win BOB then she could perhaps handle in the group as I think my nerves would maybe get the better of me by then lol, but my main requirement is having a dog that I can show, if not, I am just in the same situation again. I am getting mighty fed up of being sat at the ringside every time


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## suze23

can i ask (as i dont know much about co-ownership)!

can you not buy your own dog/breed and live with you and just show on the 2/4 weekends you are not working?

i personally couldnt co-own regardless...i guess in a way its kinda like owning the horses - if i leased/owned out my horse i wouldnt have full control over the animal (im a control freak anyhow)!..but the dog is more family than the horse - not just an showing/agility/obedience dog.


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## MerlinsMum

suze23 said:


> can you not buy your own dog/breed and live with you and just show on the 2/4 weekends you are not working?


Not everyone is in the position to take on extra dogs, for various reasons.

Many choose only to have males, others choose to own only bitches. 
The intricacies of owning both sexes, un-neutered, are complex; even if you do have outside kennels to make sure there are no accidents, neighbours may (will!) complain about the howling and noise from a male dog when a bitch in the same household is in season. And in some cases, the bitches are noisy as well.

So, for some, it is a chance to own a share in a carefully chosen male dog, kept elsewhere - or a similar bitch.

There are other reasons, perhaps someone wants to import a good dog from overseas, has the money but can't take on another dog - it benefits the breed as a whole to have this as a co-operative venture. This is particularly important for newly established breeds who are just finding a foothold in the UK.

Often there is no expectation of financial return, just a wish to invest in a breed's future, or to be involved somehow, despite not being able to own.


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## vet-2-b

Tigerneko said:


> I may just have a word with you about it at Crufts if you don't mind?


I don't mind at all  can't wait for crufts!!


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## noushka05

Bit of a different scenario, but we got our boy Merlin on a co-ownership agreement with his breeders. He was 3yrs old when we got him and living in France at the time I'd always admired him and wanted to use him on my bitch so we jumped at the offer of co-owning him. His breeders knew & trusted us & their only stipulation was that he wouldn't be used to cover any other bitches without their approval, but that it was up to us if we used him at all - as we would have the inconvenience of having other bitches come to our house. Personally though, I would recommend getting a contract drawn up & only if you're 100% happy go ahead with it.


.


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## Dober

suze23 said:


> can i ask (as i dont know much about co-ownership)!
> 
> can you not buy your own dog/breed and live with you and just show on the 2/4 weekends you are not working?
> 
> i personally couldnt co-own regardless...i guess in a way its kinda like owning the horses - if i leased/owned out my horse i wouldnt have full control over the animal (im a control freak anyhow)!..but the dog is more family than the horse - not just an showing/agility/obedience dog.


It's a little offensive to suggest dogs on co-ownerships are 'just' showing/agility/obedience dogs. My Aspen is first and foremost the love of my life, 2nd my show and IPO dog. The fact she is on a co-ownership doesn't mean I get any less control over her at all. I think this is the same for most competitive dogs, the majority are much loved family pets with a hobby!


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## MrRustyRead

The whole co-ownership thing completely confuses me. I can't get my head round it, I understand endorsements but not this.


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## MerlinsMum

MrRustyRead said:


> The whole co-ownership thing completely confuses me. I can't get my head round it, I understand endorsements but not this.


It's a partnership - where more than one person has an interest in the dog, and it benefits the dog (usually).

As I said in an earlier post, I can't have another dog for some time, but I may be in a position at some point to help someone else financially to get another dog (which they want, and which would benefit the breed, but wouldn't be able to afford). It's not a control thing in this case, but it helps the breed and I feel more involved, which is important to me as I can't get to shows either.


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## suze23

Dober said:


> It's a little offensive to suggest dogs on co-ownerships are 'just' showing/agility/obedience dogs. My Aspen is first and foremost the love of my life, 2nd my show and IPO dog. The fact she is on a co-ownership doesn't mean I get any less control over her at all. I think this is the same for most competitive dogs, the majority are much loved family pets with a hobby!


i wasnt suggesting that - i just cant get my head around it...

I guess its different - i admire many breeds from a distance (mostly the pharaoh hound) a breed which i love but will never have in my life as they just wouldnt suit me with that active nose and drive!....so i wouldnt have one to live with someone else just so i could take him/her to showing/agility whatever...

If i want a dog I will buy one as he lives with me as a family pet, working dog/show dog 2nd - i just couldnt have one live elsewhere - i just cannot get my head round it thats all!


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## Barefootgirl

Maybe I am seeing this differently as I am used to the idea of loaning horses (I have never actually owned a horse in my life, although I have had a few!), but I can't see a problem with the idea of 'loaning' a dog, where someone else retains ownership but you are responsible for day-to-day upkeep of the animal, show entries, etc. 

Actually, this would be my ideal set-up, so that we could get out to as many shows as possible to do breed classes and junior handling, but not necessarily have the massive up-front cost of buying a decent show pup. Do any show breeders have such arrangements, or is it unheard of in the dog world?


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## MrRustyRead

suze23 said:


> i wasnt suggesting that - i just cant get my head around it...
> 
> I guess its different - i admire many breeds from a distance (mostly the pharaoh hound) a breed which i love but will never have in my life as they just wouldnt suit me with that active nose and drive!....so i wouldnt have one to live with someone else just so i could take him/her to showing/agility whatever...
> 
> If i want a dog I will buy one as he lives with me as a family pet, working dog/show dog 2nd - i just couldnt have one live elsewhere - i just cannot get my head round it thats all!


Its not that though, say you co-own it with the breeder, it would live with you and basically be your dog, but then they could take it to shows etc, but whatever happens with being a co-owner you still get an equal say in what happens, they cant do anything without your permission


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## MrRustyRead

MerlinsMum said:


> It's a partnership - where more than one person has an interest in the dog, and it benefits the dog (usually).
> 
> As I said in an earlier post, I can't have another dog for some time, but I may be in a position at some point to help someone else financially to get another dog (which they want, and which would benefit the breed, but wouldn't be able to afford). It's not a control thing in this case, but it helps the breed and I feel more involved, which is important to me as I can't get to shows either.


Its something i might consider if i decide to breed Manchester Terriers, as at some point i would like to keep a Bitch but with having a Dog it might not be practical for it to live with me.


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## shetlandlover

A friend of mine did this and she said she always regretted it, especially when it came to breeding, she was forced to use a stud she didn't want to use because the dog was only half hers. She also had to part with the pup she wanted because the other owner wanted it. 

I'd be very careful as these things often end up with two people disliking each other because of their difference in opinion in showing, breeding and caring for the dog. Yes it will live with you, however vet fee's might be down to you. Show entry fee's might be down to you. 

I know of someone else who co-owned with the breeder of the dog. (dog was imported from another country) anyway they ended up falling out, the breeder told the breed club the owner wasn't allowed to breed from it and no puppies from said dog could be registered and in the end the dog ended up being sent back to the breeder.

Could you not just buy out right and ask someone to handle it for you on the days you can't attend? Obviously cover the cost of fuel but the dogs then fully yours to do with, what you please.


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