# Advice on BSH breeding :)



## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Hiya everyone, Just looking for some advice..

I want to go into breeding bsh`s and iv been looking around on different sites, my question is.. 

Do the mum and dad need to be on the active register to have kittens and register the kittens whether its TICA or GCCF? Although i want to use GCCF rather than TICA..


Thanksssssssssssssss


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes mum and dad do have to be on the active register. If you're just starting out then you won't have your own male so would go to a stud cat with your girl.

The GCCF is the most popular register.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Thankyou, Am i able to get a boy to live here too?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Both parents need to be on the active register to register kittens with GCCF. Neither parent need be either registered or on the active register to actually be bred from but, of course, non-active registered cats are not sold by breeders for breeding purposes and GCCF would not register kittens unless both parents were, themselves, registered/active and neither would you obviously want to start with unregistered cats when you embark upon breeding.

Some breeders dual register with TICA & GCCF. If only TICA registered, cats can be transferred onto the GCCF registry though you would need to ensure that the way the cats are bred (i.e. what their pedigree comprises) is compatible with the GCCF registration policy for that breed. Transferring from TICA to GCCF can (though not always) be a bit of a headache and will involve, at the very least, extra expense.

Hope that helps.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for advice again.

So mum & dad are on the active register, can the kittens be reg on GCCF without the active bit, or is it best to put them on active??


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

With GCCF kittens may be registered either active or non-active. The only reason for registering active would be if that the cat is intended for breeding. All kittens going to homes as purely pets, not for breeding, should be registered non-active.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

right ok thanks, great info there 

Is it best to get a female first? I dont mind from a kitten or older etc.

soz for all the questions.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I'd strongly advise you don't buy a male for stud when starting out - for many, many reasons.

This page, if you haven't read it already, is a good start - Welcome to the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

ok il have a read, thanks for the info..

Why shouldnt i get a stud? What age can the female be before getting a stud?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

I would suggest getting a show quality female and start going to shows to get 'in' and do a lot of research before even thinking about it.

You need to know what the breed type is, so you know whats cats are suitable to go on active, and what to look for when they are young. 

Of course both parents have to be on active. Thats just, common knowledge.

You will probably find it quite difficult to get a breeding queen from a reputable breeder, even more so a stud. And rightly so, you need to show them exactly why you wish to breed, and only the best girls will go to the best studs, especially with a popular breed like the BSH.

You should be breeding your girl to the best stud possible for her, and to get the type you want. That is usually unlikely to be a boy you have yourself. Most people with stud boys have them outside mostly in stud pens, due to spraying and obviously to keep them away from the intact females they do not want them mating with.

Also, it is not just a case of getting a boy and a girl and mating. There is usually very little reason for mating the same boy with the same girl over and over, that isnt likely to help further the breed any.

I suggest a hell of a lot of researhc before even considering getting a breeding queen, I'm talking like, a year or so....


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Iv done some research over this year but wanted breeders input too. Thanks for all the info giving so far.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> Iv done some research over this year but wanted breeders input too. Thanks for all the info giving so far.


Do you know what colours you are wanting to breed? And the health tests you need etc?

BSH are very popular, but there are also a lot of BSH breeders out there. Finding a stud who will allow you to use them can be pretty difficult without a clear vision of why exactly you want that stud (and obviously expensive when you are using champions etc) but really, thats what you want


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Lushgirl84 said:


> Why shouldnt i get a stud?


Answers to that would read as long as your Christmas shopping list  And way too long to recite here. My best suggestion would be to join one or two of the clubs which cater for BSHs, try to get along to a few shows (any shows, which cater for all breeds) and have a chat to as many breeders/exhibitors as possible. Some may not welcome lots of questions with open arms - or ears - but a lot are more than happy to talk about their hobby.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

I would like to breed Blue and Lilac, can you point me in the right direction on the best website to go to please which can help in the tests i need etc.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Honestly, its not something a website can teach you.

Firstly, you 100% need a breeding mentor, someone who has been there, done that. You cannot learn these things from websites. I mean the only things you can learn from websites are about active and non active registration...

So far, in your years research, what have you found out etc, what has made you choose BSH?

You seriously need to get to some shows, talk to some people, get out there, or you will find it very difficult to get a queen from a reputable breeder or stud services from a reputable stud owner. Honestly, it can take years to get 'ingratiated' in a community. My breeders took 3 years to be able to get a future queen from a breeder who is very well known in the Persian community.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Im just talking to a breeder now about it.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I would like to breed Blue and Lilac, can you point me in the right direction on the best website to go to please which can help in the tests i need etc.


Have you and Google had a falling out?  Loads to be found on-line, of course, but best used perhaps for the basics, not the specifics. I'd never discourage anyone from wanting to breed BSH but it (breeding any cat) is a minefield, particularly for the newcomer. Go about it slowly, with as much information as you can gather and digest otherwise, take it from me, you will be in for much heartache and expense.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Have you and Google had a falling out?  Loads to be found on-line, of course, but best used perhaps for the basics, not the specifics. I'd never discourage anyone from wanting to breed BSH but it (breeding any cat) is a minefield, particularly for the newcomer. Go about it slowly, with as much information as you can gather and digest otherwise, take it from me, you will be in for much heartache and expense.


yeh  lol.. thanks for the info and help..

Iv seen so many ads with bsh kittens but not on any register, does that mean they havent registered the parents?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> yeh  lol.. thanks for the info and help..
> 
> Iv seen so many ads with bsh kittens but not on any register, does that mean they havent registered the parents?


Its mean they are a back yard breeder, probably breeding moggys and cannot tell the difference between a BSH and a DSH.

Non registered = back yard breeder.

The purchaser of the cat cannot put their cat on the active. Only the breeder can do that.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Aww its quite sad really, poor little kitties but money for their owners..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If the ad states not registered or unregistered or whatever then yes. Though some breeders may overlook stating that the kittens are registered simply because they are good and ethical enough breeders not to think about stating (what is to them) the obvious. You're *highly* unlikely to find a suitable quality, active registered kitten on any free ads site.. or any ad site come to that unfortunately.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

so where shall i go then, as i dont know any breeders yet?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> so where shall i go then, as i dont know any breeders yet?


You need to get to know them. As we have said, you need to go to shows. You NEED to get to know breeders.

You simply will not get an active registered breed quality girl from a random person. Think about it, they are entrusting you to responsibly and carefully breed from a kitten they have bred.

That is a HUGE trust they are putting in you. Why would someone you don't know do that for you??

You said you are currently talking to a breeder. If they know you and trust you, will they not allow you to purchase a breeding queen?

I know you have said you have researched for a year, but you are clearly far far away from being ready to breed. I dont actually know what you have researched...you dont know the difference between active, and that cats have to be active to breed? These are like the ultimate basics.

You seriously need to really ingratiate yourself in the BSH community before even considering getting a breeding queen... You won't even get one without doing that.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

I know someone who got a boy and girl both on active register i got from a breeder with no trouble, this was about 2 yrs ago, gorgeous blue boy and a beautiful blue girl.

And i do know the difference between active and non-active thankyou, what i was getting at was why people breed without them being active...I know its not right, so thought id ask proper breeders.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

What gloworm*mushroom said.... and honestly I think it's absolutely fatal, looking at ad sites. Wean yourself off looking at them altogether  Read all the relevant info on GCCF web site; you don't need breed specific info at the moment. Join one of the BSH clubs and try to get to a few shows. Researching on BSH breeders' web sites can be a good way of researching but remember that anyone can have a nicely put together site... what you see isn't necessarily what you get. Breeders who are member of their respective breed clubs tend (but only tend) to be the best approach, as are those thaT show their cats. Showing isn't the be all and end all but it does illustrate a level of 'serious' involvement and dedication.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I know someone who got a boy and girl both on active register i got from a breeder with no trouble, this was about 2 yrs ago, gorgeous blue boy and a beautiful blue girl.


Well honestly, if they got them 'no trouble' then I would question the breeder.

Are they just breeding this boy and this girl over and over? Cos I would also question them as breeders...

What do you know about genetics? How are you going to bring your lilacs in? You know about the lilacs dilute colouration? There is just so much to learn, getting the queen is literally the VERY last thing you do...

You said earlier you were talking to a breeder, but then after that you said you don't know any breeders. Yu need to get to know breeders.

Put it this way, if I have the choice of paying £400 for a BSH from champion parents, whose breeders can carefully talk me through the genetics of their cats, why they breed, the parentage of their parents being tip top, etc, or someone who just bought a intact boy and girl on the active, who am I going to choose?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I know someone who got a boy and girl both on active register i got from a breeder with no trouble, this was about 2 yrs ago, gorgeous blue boy and a beautiful blue girl.


Sorry, I know I'm beginning to sound obstructive and negative but that's not my intention. Any breeder who would sell an actively registered male to a complete newcomer is someone who should be avoided at all costs.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> And i do know the difference between active and non-active thankyou, what i was getting at was why people breed without them being active...I know its not right, so thought id ask proper breeders.


Well you should know that technically they should never be bred if not on active. It means they are not of the right quality to breed, and that all of their offspring can not be registered.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for all the info..Lots to do, so better get down to it.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Sorry, I know I'm beginning to sound obstructive and negative but that's not my intention. Any breeder who would sell an actively registered male to a complete newcomer is someone who should be avoided at all costs.


This. To get an intact, proper breed quality male is like, INSANELY hard.

Any breeder can put any cat on the active. Whether they should or not, remains to be seen. However, no reputable breeder would risk their neck, and their prefix, by putting out a poor quality male on the active to just anyone. It could ruin the reputation of their cats.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Do you put your cats on active reg or just for a pet home?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> Do you put your cats on active reg or just for a pet home?


Breeders VERY rarely put their cats on the active. Thats not the default setting. Pet is the default setting.

There is very little reason for most breeders to put 90% of their kittens on the active. They will carefully select those of the best breed type, and handpick homes.

Often, breed quality kittens go to pet homes, as they don't want the cats bred or they can't find a suitable breeding home. Unless they go to a registered breeder, a cat should never go on the active.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

I was just curious.

So before people become reg breeders how did they start out then? cause they were just be like me..starting out etc, if you see what i mean


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I was just curious.
> 
> So before people become reg breeders how did they start out then? cause they were just be like me..starting out etc, if you see what i mean


You should be registered from the start. You don't start out as a BYB and then move into legitimacy.

As stated in about 3 posts, they go to shows, they buy a show quality (neutered) cat, and they talk to people. They get known in the community as a good pet owner, a responsible person, etc.

Then you can discuss with breeders your aims, what you want to improve, what colours you want to breed, everything. Then, when they can look at you and think, yeah, I can trust them to breed one of my cats, to carry on my prefix (because your cats will have their name in their pedigree, and they dont want poor quality cats associated with them) they will think, yeah, you can have an active cat.

It doesnt happen overnight, and nor should it.

I would suggest getting a show quality ped and starting doing that. And get homechecked with a rescue and carry on your fostering in the mean time instead of jumping into breeding.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for peoples info and help..


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I was just curious.
> 
> So before people become reg breeders how did they start out then? cause they were just be like me..starting out etc, if you see what i mean


Join a club which caters for BSH > purchase your breeding prefix from GCCF > meantime, visit shows, look at the cats with a view to understanding why the cats are placed in the order they are (chatting with breeders helps a lot, though their answers may be subjective) > get to KNOW other breeders; it's the best and really only way of managing to convince a breeder that you want to breed for all the right reasons, will look after to the best of your ability and the knowledge you've gained the female kitten they have entrusted to you for breed/show. Hopefully by that time you will have made a few friends of other breeders, especially in someone who is prepared to help and advise on all aspects.

But first of all - save heaps of money!


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> Join a club which caters for BSH > purchase your breeding prefix from GCCF > meantime, visit shows, look at the cats with a view to understanding why the cats are placed in the order they are (chatting with breeders helps a lot, though their answers may be subjective) > get to KNOW other breeders; it's the best and really only way of managing to convince a breeder that you want to breed for all the right reasons, will look after to the best of your ability and the knowledge you've gained the female kitten they have entrusted to you for breed/show. Hopefully by that time you will have made a few friends of other breeders, especially in someone who is prepared to help and advise on all aspects.
> 
> But first of all - save heaps of money!


Thankyou, thats very helpful, I was just getting confused on HOW to become a registered breeder before doing anything else.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Just wanted to add about the stud, the breeder that I spoke to said that she waited many yearsto get her boy as they are alot of hard work, I think she has 5 or 6 girls and it isnt enough for him and he sprays and crys constantly and fights as all he wants to to is mate so he now lives outside  Oh I dont think a breeder will sell a boy to anyone who hasnt got a certain about of girls either, like 5? 

Id neuter the kittens before they go to new homes, thats what the breeder does will stop any byb getting your kittens x


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

catlove844 said:


> Just wanted to add about the stud, the breeder that I spoke to said that she waited many yearsto get her boy as they are alot of hard work, I think she has 5 or 6 girls and it isnt enough for him and he sprays and crys constantly and fights as all he wants to to is mate so he now lives outside  Oh I dont think a breeder will sell a boy to anyone who hasnt got a certain about of girls either, like 5?
> 
> Id neuter the kittens before they go to new homes, thats what the breeder does will stop any byb getting your kittens x


So its best to go to a stud then? Alot of people have their cats outside so iv heard.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Completely agree with everything catlove has said. Also, look at it this way. You can't possibly know what you are looking for in a stud until your female is mature enough for mating. There will be aspects, small 'faults' if you like, which mean that you will be researching the most suitable stud for her to be mated to, hopefully with the aid of an experienced breeder. The chances of randomly buying that suitable, future for mate for her, at 13 weeks old are remote.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Im sorry I dunno I guess thats what people do as you see cats 4 stud! Ive only helped with rescues I dont breed, nor will I ever! British are like the most popular cats and there are so many breeders, so Id rather just go to a good breeder, thats why we have waited and are hoping to get 1 next year, if we dont Ill rescue again. 

the breeder we are going to has no cats outside only the stud, I think its awful having babies outside they should be pets and not just 4 breeding, thats just my opinion though x

Plus just to say if its your frist british, shoud u breed from it? surely you should get to know the breed as we asked loads of questions, how would you answer my questions if I came to you for a kitten?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Some people do have stud cats outside, but they should be in a heated outdoor enclosure and brought in regularly and treated as 'pets'

As stated, boys need a lot of attention, and as a new stud owner you are unlikely to get any proper stud work, so starting out it is much easier to go to a stud.

But, as with everything, you need to be able to explain to the stud owner why you chose them, and the fees can be very high depending on how well that have done in the show ring.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Some people do have stud cats outside, but they should be in a heated outdoor enclosure and brought in regularly and treated as 'pets'
> 
> As stated, boys need a lot of attention, and as a new stud owner you are unlikely to get any proper stud work, so starting out it is much easier to go to a stud.
> 
> But, as with everything, you need to be able to explain to the stud owner why you chose them, and the fees can be very high depending on how well that have done in the show ring.


oh my god you are so right! the breeder was telling me why dad to the babies was choosen, she choose him agesss ago!! like years before the mating lol! And it all went over my head I was like 'erm...ok...' but she knew what she wants from the litter so im happy with that! x


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

I def need a mentor!!

Just been looking at the forms on GCCF site, can I only register a prefix when i have my kitten? as need her parents on the form etc?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

catlove844 said:


> oh my god you are so right! the breeder was telling me why dad to the babies was choosen, she choose him agesss ago!! like years before the mating lol! And it all went over my head I was like 'erm...ok...' but she knew what she wants from the litter so im happy with that! x


Its good that she is telling you all of that unsolicited! A good breeder should want to show off the utter fabulousness of their cats


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I def need a mentor!!
> 
> Just been looking at the forms on GCCF site, can I only register a prefix when i have my kitten? as need her parents on the form etc?


no idea but not hard to find!

Welcome to the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy

what about calling breeders near u n popping over to them? have a chat?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I def need a mentor!!
> 
> Just been looking at the forms on GCCF site, can I only register a prefix when i have my kitten? as need her parents on the form etc?


I think you are looking at trying to register a kitten, rather than just applying for a prefix...

http://www.gccfcats.org/pdf/prefixapp.pdf

Once you get your cat, she will not have YOUR prefix, she will have the breeders prefix. Only the kittens YOU breed can have YOUR prefix.


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## catlove844 (Feb 15, 2011)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Its good that she is telling you all of that unsolicited! A good breeder should want to show off the utter fabulousness of their cats


lol I was like who do you have a pic of dad...turned into a full blown ten min convo about him lol! :thumbup: I think its good that they shown them off! gota be proud Im a proud mama lol! x


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

found the prefix page now cheers Gloworm..

And yes i think i will do that catlove, Iv emailed a breeder tonight, but will keep looking for others


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## Alaskacat (Aug 2, 2010)

You have been given lots of excellant advise, a stud boy usually needs between 3 and 6 girls a year and as stated, you would not find people wanting to use your boy if you are a newcomer, unless he has had amazing show sucess. So please discount the idea of owning your own stud yet.

To register a prefix with GCCF you must have the signature of a breed club on it. Most breed clubs will not sign unless you have been a member at least a year to ensure that those granted Prefixes are committed. That is why many posters have suggested that you join an appropriate BSH club. That is not straightforward as you may need to be proposed and seconded for membership which is why you need to go to shows and actually meet people. It is also why buying a show pet (not active) is a good way to get into breeding as you can neuter and show them and meet and talk to breeders.

You can then decide why you want to breed BSH not just for the pretty kitties, but to improve the breed. Everyone starts somewhere so well done for wanting to do it properly as if you went down the backyard route no good breeder would then trust you with breeding cats. 

Good luck and take time to research as you are at the start of a long, expensive and sometimes painful journey.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

xxxxxxxxxxxx MWAH xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

I don't want to be negative but make sure you have thought everything through properly.

It is amazing and an honour to be a breeder BUT there are many down sides too. So many people start then when something goes wrong find that they can't deal with it so have to give up. It can be mega unpleasant and stressful when things go wrong and not everyone can deal with it. Kittens die, mums can get ill, can you emotionally deal with that? Not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of pounds on veterinary bills? You generally can't insure a breeding queen so must find your own funding to pay a vet.

Stud males are NOT for beginners and are a lot of work! You will need decent stud housing (expect to pay in the 4 figures for that), and plenty of females to keep him satisfied. Males that don't get enough 'work' can become vicious, depressed and unwell. I'm in year 2 of breeding the British and i still wouldn't consider a male. It's easy enough just to go to a suitable stud.

To apply for a prefix you need to have 2 or more females on the active register, plus you need the form signed and sometimes countersigned by a club you have been a member of for at least a year. Basically you have to make yourself known to the community before you will earn any trust.

Shows are a must if you want to be noticed, it's really the only way to start if you want to do this properly. There are loads of shows each year, and you will enjoy them! A show neuter is probably the best way to start (although i didn't do it this way).

Be aware that for the British, you will need to blood group each female, and a PKD test is a good idea too. Vaccinations and worming MUST be up to date at all times, and you will need to keep the girls in top condition by feeding the best quality foods which can be expensive.

Also be aware that breeding queens have many seasons and will call every 3-4 weeks. Will your neighbours be ok with that? I've seen me popping in with chocs or flowers now and then to keep the peace!! 
You will need to monitor calling queens as they are at the risk of a Pyometra which can be fatal, not to mention the stress of mating, pregnancy and labour!! THEN you have 13 weeks of looking after a litter which will need constant supervision and care. Trust me it is a FULL TIME job!!

Anyway, if you still want to go ahead, there's loads of us here who will help you


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

Well said Alison but just one thing - you do not need any queens to apply for a prefix. Anyone can apply for a prefix provided their form has been signed by a club and it is generally only breed clubs who require 1 or 2 years membership. Most area clubs will sign a member's application straightaway.

I would however strongly recommend breed club membership


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Crikey you're right!!!

It's food breeder clubs that require you to have 2 or more queens!!!


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

so i could sign upto the british shorthair club then without any girls? would this be the best one?


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

It's a good club yes but you have to be a member for 2 years, although if you know someone in the club you might get away with just paying for 2 years and getting a signature just now but yes you can join without any cats.

Andrew is in charge of that club, he's lovely and very helpful


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

mwah mwah mwah xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Have to be a member for a min of 1 yr before they sign for the prefex, which is good, My girl will be a year next July.

Is it the £45 i need to pay to join the club? whats the £5 bit?


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> Have to be a member for a min of 1 yr before they sign for the prefex, which is good, My girl will be a year next July.
> 
> Is it the £45 i need to pay to join the club? whats the £5 bit?


Surely you are not getting an active girl? One for showing, yes?

If you are getting a girl on the active I very much doubt she is of breed quality. No decent breeder would allow a novice like yourself (and indeed what i would be if I were to embark upon breeding) to take an active girl...


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

That's not strictly true - some would say you HAVE to show first and some say not. I'm not sure about the snobbery about having to have a show cat first - some people don't want to show all the time - it's expensive and reasonably boring too. If you can get a good mentor and they are willing to see you right - why not? Everyone has to start somewhere if you frighten all the new comers away with restrictions about having to show first - or not if you are a novice then the cat fancy will very quickly age and die off. Showing isn't everyones cup of tea. And why should you have too? - you can learn without having to show yourself. And why force someone to wait 2 years before allowing them a breeding girl - that's when you push people into saying the cat world is stuffy and antiquated and off they go and buy from a byb and become one themselves.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

spid said:


> That's not strictly true - some would say you HAVE to show first and some say not. I'm not sure about the snobbery about having to have a show cat first - some people don't want to show all the time - it's expensive and reasonably boring too. If you can get a good mentor and they are willing to see you right - why not? Everyone has to start somewhere if you frighten all the new comers away with restrictions about having to show first - or not if you are a novice then the cat fancy will very quickly age and die off. Showing isn't everyones cup of tea. And why should you have too? - you can learn without having to show yourself. And why force someone to wait 2 years before allowing them a breeding girl - that's when you push people into saying the cat world is stuffy and antiquated and off they go and buy from a byb and become one themselves.


I just think people should know about the breed before breeding.

And yes everyone should start somewhere, but its not about going in straight away with a breeding cat when frankly some very obvious questions cannot be answered.

Put it this way, not many breeders will sell an active girl to a novice... and theres good reasons why.

You dont have to show, but like I said, its a big world, BSH breeding, and why would I buy a cat from someone with no show history than buy from one with champion parents...


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

What's the £45 for?

Club memberships are all under £10, usually in the region of £5 or £6.

Be sure to research where you are getting the kitten from, genetics, pedigree and line are all very important, as is thinking about which studs you could use.

Have to agree with spid here. I didn't show before i got an active girl, although i made my intent to show very clear from the beginning, and the breeder has a close friend who goes to the same shows as me etc etc.

Everyone has to start somewhere and i do believe that some decent breeders will sell on the active if they feel it's appropriate.


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

alisondalziel said:


> Everyone has to start somewhere and i do believe that some decent breeders will sell on the active if they feel it's appropriate.


Im gonna assume you knew to breed from active parents, that kittens do not automatically go on the active register, and maybe a tiny bit about some sort of genetics.

And not to get a stud cat immediately?

By all means, beginners need to breed, but a LOT of research needs to go into it first and honestly I am not seeing it, at all....

And I dont see a good breeder offering an active girl after an evenings chat....


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

Ok yeah, fair point but remember it is a forum. We can only go on the written word.
Best we can do is be patient and as helpful as possible.
Education is certainly the key!!

I said i didn't show before i got an active girl BUT i did have an extensive background in breeding and showing other animals, and worked in rescue etc etc.

I knew the 'rules' of breeding and basic genetics and i made as many contacts as i could with breeders and show folks.

I waited a good while before i got my girl and it was after months of chat.

I would worry about any breeder who 'gives out' an active girl without any questions. I'm bad enough re-homing kittens, god knows what i'd be like re-homing an active queen!! :scared:


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Well no - obviously not after just an evenings chat on the phone - but once you get your girl you still have a good 9 months to learn the details - and a good mentor will help with that, set up a stud meeting etc. You obviously need to do some research first but if someone wishes to mentor you and teach you all that then well and good (I'm not just talking about the BSH world). And you can also show your girl once you have her if you want.

Also having champion parents doesn't guarantee champion offspring - some great champions have been born from non championship lines and visa versa - most 'bog standard' kitten owners aren't that bothered whether mum and dad are champions they just want a healthy kitten. My Minnii came from championship lines and look at the problems she has!!! If you only breed from champions you severely restrict your blood lines!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

spid said:


> Well no - obviously not after just an evenings chat on the phone - but once you get your girl you still have a good 9 months to learn the details - and a good mentor will help with that, set up a stud meeting etc. You obviously need to do some research first but if someone wishes to mentor you and teach you all that then well and good (I'm not just talking about the BSH world). And you can also show your girl once you have her if you want.
> 
> Also having champion parents doesn't guarantee champion offspring - some great champions have been born from non championship lines and visa versa - most 'bog standard' kitten owners aren't that bothered whether mum and dad are champions they just want a healthy kitten. My Minnii came from championship lines and look at the problems she has!!! If you only breed from champions you severely restrict your blood lines!


Oh I agree, Gloworms parents are Champions but he wouldnt go anywhere in a show. However, It shows, to me, that my breeders 'know what theyre doing' in terms of their breeding practises and are using top notch cats, and are breeding to improve the breed. Mushroom only has one Champ parent, and he is much more 'showy'

I am all for people getting into breeding, maybe not in an already 'saturated' market like the BSH (or raggies or bengals) but in general good breeders are a good thing.

However, I personally think it is impossible to go from knowing no breeders, to finding a mentor willing to give you a breeding queen fairly soon, in a night, is impossible from a 'reputable' breeder.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Im gonna assume you knew to breed from active parents, that kittens do not automatically go on the active register, and maybe a tiny bit about some sort of genetics.
> 
> And not to get a stud cat immediately?
> 
> ...


I knew all these things first - I used the internet and researched it all. It doesn't take long to find out those things. But I didn't show at all - wasn't interested and Minnii had the wrong foot markings - didn't make her unsuitable for breeding. I just think we have to be very careful in the cat fancy to not frighten off new breeders otherwise we shan't exist in the future cos we shall all have died off. We have to give people chances and take chances on them - just like they take a chance buying from us if we go down that route.

I took a chance on Minnii and got burnt, I've now taken a chance on Coda and seriously hope I don't again. That's coming from the other side!


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

spid said:


> I knew all these things first - I used the internet and researched it all. It doesn't take long to find out those things. But I didn't show at all - wasn't interested and Minnii had the wrong foot markings - didn't make her unsuitable for breeding. I just think we have to be very careful in the cat fancy to not frighten off new breeders otherwise we shan't exist in the future cos we shall all have died off. We have to give people chances and take chances on them - just like they take a chance buying from us if we go down that route.
> 
> I took a chance on Minnii and got burnt, I've now taken a chance on Coda and seriously hope I don't again. That's coming from the other side!


Like I said, I am not against new breeders. But to one day have those questions, and not know any breeders, to having a breeding queen already on the cards OVERNIGHT to me does not reek of responsibility...

I didnt say cats had to be show quality to breed from, the show quality was about getting into the world of BSH, to show people that you are serious about improving the breed.

Not trying to frighten, trying to simply state how difficult it is, especially with a reed like BSH, to do things properly. I dont see how anything anyone has said on this thread is scary... and I do still think that a good route into breeding is getting known in the community. As well as knowing genetics, blood types, what you want to 'get out' of breeding, etc.

it all goes much much further than the very simple questions I mentioned earlier. Hence why it worries me when someone is ready to dive into breeding after not knowing that.... and who was looking to adopt an older BSH like hours ago and is now getting a breed quality kitten? I would just like to see consistency and, dedication to one thing.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I didnt say i had a kitten, I said i had one lined up, This breeder has been doing this since 1989, And yes i was asked questions, Iv looked at the bloodgroup of the parents and their pedigrees, which has champions, and grand champs.
> 
> So having a discussion about me over saying "i have a girl lined up" isnt fair, I have a GOOD breeder and a GREAT mentor, which is what YOU LOT said for me to have last night.!!


All I am saying is I have not yet met a breeder who meets someone one night and agrees to sell them an active kitten the next night. To me, that does not suggest a good breeder.

So you know which blood group the kitten will be and what males that means she can be bred to?

What we said last night was to not rush into things, especially something as important as breeding when yesterday you thought all kittens would go on the active register, and you were not 100% sure if both parents had to be on the active register :S


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

That's why we're all here, we can advise when the blood group is known and make sure she has the knowledge for success. 

It can seem like a rushed process but remember it's her first queen so she will be mega excited!! Looking back i wish that i'd have taken a little more time 

Being the British, i have a soft spot...

Anyway i'm off to give Socks her pill and get some rest...

Night all.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Im paying loads for this girl, the breeder has a website, prefix, studs, all from good bloodlines,


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> Im paying loads for this girl, the breeder has a website, prefix, studs, all from good bloodlines,


Well all I can say is you have learnt an awful lot in 24 hours.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

I know more than you think, but it was good to get other peoples advice


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## gloworm*mushroom (Mar 4, 2011)

Lushgirl84 said:


> I know more than you think, but it was good to get other peoples advice


All I am taking is from your questions:

Can I get a boy to live here? Why not?

Do mum and dad both have to be on the active register?

And 'can I register the kittens without being on active, or is it best for them to go on the active?'

Those questions, coupled with 'I dont know any breeders' does not strike me as anyone ready to begin breeding.

As I have said before, I am against moggy breeding and irresponsible pedigree breeding.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Good for you! Thanks for all your help.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> Sorry, I know I'm beginning to sound obstructive and negative but that's not my intention. Any breeder who would sell an actively registered male to a complete newcomer is someone who should be avoided at all costs.


Well, we would think so, but apparently in persians it is entirely the norm for a new breeder to get both parents and it works that way because very few persians are at open stud. That's a different breed I know but it is interesting to see how much variation there is across the cat fancy even in the UK.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

gloworm*mushroom said:


> Well you should know that technically they should never be bred if not on active. It means they are not of the right quality to breed, and that all of their offspring can not be registered.


These days it's more often about not wanting people to breed than about the quality of the cat.

I have to say I do have some degree of sympathy with the kitten buyer who does not understand the implications of "non-active", assumes we all make a vast amount of money breeding cats (cough! splutter!), falls in love with the kitten they have purchased and decides that just one litter would be lovely, then can't understand why no-one will take their cat to stud because after all they don't want to breed, they only want one litter. I had a lady recently phone me twice who had not grasped this. I am always very polite and very nice to such people though of course I cannot accept their cats to stud. I wonder often, though, if we are being quite unreasonable expecting a first time pedigree kitten buyer to understand the issue.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Lushgirl84 said:


> So before people become reg breeders how did they start out then? cause they were just be like me..starting out etc, if you see what i mean


I was very lucky - I had no idea at the time how lucky I was (and to be fair, things were easier in those days). I turned up to look at a pedigree kitten of a breed I had never even considered simply because I was desperate for a kitten and these were available and my chosen breed was not. I had reached the stage of handing the money over before the breeder advised me to have the girl spayed and it was only then that I told her I did want to breed but not show. This was not a matter of me trying to deceive anyone, I just had no idea that there would be restrictions. I was incredibly lucky to find a breeder who actually put the girls on the active and incredibly lucky to have the support of this breeder. It is partly because of that, and partly because of my personal ethics, that I am probably one of the most supportive people to new breeders that you will ever come across. Even so, the great majority of my kittens go to pet homes because most people just want pets.

I actually take a different line to most on this matter and I will tell you why. If someone is going to breed from a kitten you sell, there is nothing you can do legally to stop them. The only way to stop them is to sell kittens already neutered. That course of action has a great deal to commend it but I personally cannot bring myself to do it. That is not because of any objection to it, if buying a pet I would far rather buy one already neutered, it is purely because I have difficulties with neutering, I mean personal squeamishness about it going back to my childhood. I absolutely hate having to do it, I only do it if I absolutely have to, I dread it, etc. It's almost a phobia with me. So obviously I cannot bring myself to do early neutering.

Therefore if anyone buys a kitten from me they will be able to breed from it whether or not I want them to, just as they will with any other breeder who does not early neuter. Since I would far far prefer to know about any breeding that is done with my cats, my conversation with kitten buyers either says right away (at the phone call stage or even in the advert) that "this kitten is not suitable for breeding because (and there will be a very good reason), if there is any question of you ever wanting kittens you should not buy this one because (danger of some sort will be involved, either small size or perhaps risk of a hereditary defect). If you do breed from this cat the kittens will not be registerable and so they won't be worth very much."

Or the conversation goes along the lines (for female kittens) of "I am assuming you want the kitten just as a pet. If at any stage you decide you want to have kittens from her, please please don't just let her out, get in touch with me and you can either use one of my (unrelated) boys or I will help you to find an appropriate stud so that you can have pedigree kittens if you want to. I can tell you that you won't make any money out of it, but I would far far rather know about my grandkittens than not know about them!"

At the end of the day it is not possible to stop people breeding from entire cats and I have seen a lot of breeders get very upset when someone does breed from cats on the non-active register, so IMHO the thing to do is to make sure that problem simply does not arise. Either early neuter or be prepared to give complete support to a novice breeder. For me it's the latter.

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Alaskacat said:


> To register a prefix with GCCF you must have the signature of a breed club on it. Most breed clubs will not sign unless you have been a member at least a year to ensure that those granted Prefixes are committed.


Any affiliated club is acceptable, it doesn't have to be a breed club, though I agree that joining a breed club is a very good idea.

Liz


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Liz, I think there's a lot to be commended in what you say - the idea of not alienating a kitten purchaser completely (whether you happen to discover they bred from a cat or mentioned it in the first place) which inevitably, at some point, ceases all communication with them and any helpful input from you.

I think the difference we're talking about here though are those breeders who actively pursue selling any cat/kitten, either female or for stud purposes, to any old person who might ask. As we both know, they'll do that because they are either struggling to sell their kittens and/or because they see an opportunity to inflate the price. There are plenty of such breeders about and almost inevitably those are the ones newcomer, would be breeders, stumble across first because their starting point is so often the free ads.

I fear the OP is making a big mistake in already having located her breeder/mentor - in the space of a few hours yesterday evening. Bear in mind I've "been in" British for close to 30 years and having read this thread, with an eye on the detail, from start to finish.... it illustrates just how easy it is to make a wrong move when you're in a rush.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

You know the breed far better than I do of course. It is a very large breed and mine is one of the smallest. Still, the OP is not a total novice in terms of breeding since she has been involved in fostering of cats with kittens. I think she has a lot of advice on this thread to digest, at any rate.

Liz


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Thankyou to everyone for their input. everyones been very helpful.


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## Lushgirl84 (Jun 27, 2011)

Thankyou Lizward,


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