# Taking your bitch to stud what to expect...



## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

As you know if Alaska's final health test comes back clear we are going to stud in October 2011 (if her season matches up) anyway I want to make sure I am pretty balanced and after reading horror stories on the internet such as the stud dog owner not signing the papers I want to make sure I have everything I need to know and need on hand. 

Do you take your own contract with you to the stud owner saying that you will pay a stud fee and they have to sign the papers? 

Also after reading many times about bitches being left at the stud's for days sometimes weeks I dont want to do that.

The stud I am planning to use lives about a hour or so away from me so I can take her back if she doesnt take the first time or second time.

Just wanted to get everyones experiances with this.

After all books can only give you so much.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I left Neva at the studs for a week unfortunately we were out on our days. The owner was a good friend of mines friend so I felt comfortable leaving her. The last time I bred a reg litter I paid the stud fee when the papers were signed...Jill


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

canuckjill said:


> I left Neva at the studs for a week unfortunately we were out on our days. The owner was a good friend of mines friend so I felt comfortable leaving her. The last time I bred a reg litter I paid the stud fee when the papers were signed...Jill


I read a thread before about someone not signing the papers and now I am more worried.

I dont feel right leaving Alaska unless I can stay with her, tbh I think she would be more stressed if I wasnt there.

I am guessing the stud owners dont sign it until the pups are born? Daft question I know but I have to ask them.:arf:


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I knew the stud owner very well and stayed with them,we also sorted out all the finer points on the contracts before I went to them, but If I had to use a stud owned by someone I did not know very well, I would certainly have all the paperwork and agreements sorted out BEFORE I got to them, and if requred stay at a hotel close enough that I didnt have to do much travelling inbetween matings, but thats because I have a thing about the bitch travelling after a mating, I prefer her to go into a crate straight after to rest.

Forgot to say on my first litter the stud owner was a very close friend and she was happy for me to pay once the pups were born, the 2nd even though friends of ours we did it very business like and I paid straight after the service, it was agreed if no pregnancy came of it I had a free 2nd go at a later date, on the same bitch.

Mo


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Extra question, How much time before hand do you disguss seasons and so on with the stud owner? The stud I want to use okayed me to use him but I need to know when to let them know and find out exactly what they expect and so on. I dont want to ring them 3 days into her season and be stuck if they are away or something.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Extra question, How much time before hand do you disguss seasons and so on with the stud owner? The stud I want to use okayed me to use him but I need to know when to let them know and find out exactly what they expect and so on. I dont want to ring them 3 days into her season and be stuck if they are away or something.


With my first litter, I kept in regular touch with the stud dog owner, and as soon as my girl came into season, I rang to let them know. They were pretty much a 16 hour round trip from me, I arrived 830 on BH Saturday night, and they were very kind to put me up (I didn't expect it, and my OH had found me a hotel while I was travelling).

If the stud dog was proven, I would expect to leave with ALL paperwork on the first mating. if the stud dog wasn't proven, then I would not expect any money to change hands at that point, but a written agreement of the paperwork being handed over in exchange for the stud fee when the bitch is confirmed in whelp.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> With my first litter, I kept in regular touch with the stud dog owner, and as soon as my girl came into season, I rang to let them know. They were pretty much a 16 hour round trip from me, I arrived 830 on BH Saturday night, and they were very kind to put me up (I didn't expect it, and my OH had found me a hotel while I was travelling).
> 
> If the stud dog was proven, I would expect to leave with ALL paperwork on the first mating. if the stud dog wasn't proven, then I would not expect any money to change hands at that point, but a written agreement of the paperwork being handed over in exchange for the stud fee when the bitch is confirmed in whelp.


Hes proven. So what paper work would I need to leave with or is it just his kc number and pedigree?? Will they need anything paperwork wise from me?


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Hes proven. So what paper work would I need to leave with or is it just his kc number and pedigree?? Will they need anything paperwork wise from me?


You need a receipt for the stud fee and the litter application form which has a section to be completed and signed by the stud dog owner - experienced stud dog owners should have their own there - but you can always download one from the KC website and take it with you to be on the safe side 

You should also be given copies of all dads health certificates, pedigree and possibly some photos


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## Ridgielover (Apr 16, 2008)

You need to contact the stud dog's owner to ask for a copy of their contract to make sure that you are happy about it now, rather than later. If they don't have a contract, ask them what their terms are. If he is proven and you don't know the people very well, they will probably expect you to pay your stud fee on the mating and they will give you the signed documentation for you to register the puppies with the KC in return. If they haven't already asked to see all of her documentation, ie registration docs (to check for endorsements) copy of pedigree and all health test documentation, then you'll need to take that with you too.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> You need a receipt for the stud fee and the litter application form which has a section to be completed and signed by the stud dog owner - experienced stud dog owners should have their own there - but you can always download one from the KC website and take it with you to be on the safe side
> 
> You should also be given copies of all dads health certificates, pedigree and possibly some photos


And they sign that that day? Or when teh pups are born?

Sorry for the 100's of questions.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> And they sign that that day? Or when teh pups are born?
> 
> Sorry for the 100's of questions.


They are signing to say the dog has covered your bitch. It is irrelevant whether pups are born or not, you are paying for the stud service - although most stud owners will put in writing they will allow a free return visit next season if the bitch doesn't take.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> They are signing to say the dog has covered your bitch. It is irrelevant whether pups are born or not, you are paying for the stud service - although most stud owners will put in writing they will allow a free return visit next season if the bitch doesn't take.


Right okay.

I think I will take my own in case.

When do you think would be a good time to ask about their terms? I know how much they charge for stud but thats it. Everytime I email I feel like I am being a pain and dont really get much back just a "contact me closer to the time" which is okay for her but not for me...I need to know because If I dont agree then I have to arrange to go to another stud which btw is miles away so I need plenty of time.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

i'd leave if for at least 6 months as you're not going to mate her until October, also might be an idea to have another stud in mind just in case the stud you have chosen is not available on the dates you wanted.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

dexter said:


> i'd leave if for at least 6 months as you're not going to mate her until October, also might be an idea to have another stud in mind just in case the stud you have chosen is not available on the dates you wanted.


They are happy for me to use him but last time I spoke to her she said "Oh she will be ready around 17/18 months then" and I said "I dont want to mate her until shes 2" and she walked off...but she was super busy. :scared:

I may drop a email after christmas to see if he is going to be useable.

My other stud dog is my mentors dog he lives further away but I know that I can use him with no problems at all. However the first stud dog is the one that Alaska's breeder suggested and is very good in the ring.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

If your mentor has another bitch coming in for breeding you could ask her if you could go along and watch, experienced dogs won't mind and you could then go through the whole process before you've had a go with your own bitch.

If someone has no interest in the puppies that I am breeding, in other words they are too busy to stop and pay an interest in my bitch then I write them off. I have no interest in breeding for the sake of it, I want to know that the stud owner has as much interest in them and their future that I do be they pets or for competition, its not just matching up the dogs its also matching up breeders.

Brilliant you are asking all the questions in advance the more planning you do the better but dogs being dogs they are very good at making all your plans go to pot


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Tbh I picked him based on advice I was given from experianced members in our breed but I do get the feeling that letting me plan it as best can is the last thing on her mind. 

For me its my first time I want to do what I can to ensure I get it right I feel like I cant.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

Not read through the posts so apologies if its been repeated, but make sure you have a back up stud to avoid disappointment.


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

If your not happy with the choice people are pushing you towards why not take a step back, alot of people will recommend a popular stud, the dog of the moment rather than the right dog for your bitch. It might be worth if your not already doing it popping your bitch into a show and listening to what the judges have to say, if you've got a good local judge why not give them a ring and ask them for their opinion on your bitches strengths and weaknesses, that way you can make a judgement for yourself.

The KC and some breed clubs often have breeder seminars specific to your breed that might be valuable for your own education. Your in no rush so its worth looking at whats around. Look at the conformation and movement seminars they are a good start although aimed at future judges personally I think all breeders should attend these. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/4493/edandtrainprospectus.pdf


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

He is the right stud for her thats why I am so dead set on using him.
He has been used to her sisters to great results and his line compliments her perfectly.

They just never tell you how to deal with a stud owner who doesnt seem to have time for you.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> He is the right stud for her thats why I am so dead set on using him.
> He has been used to her sisters to great results and his line compliments her perfectly.
> 
> They just never tell you how to deal with a stud owner who doesnt seem to have time for you.


TBH I would find another stud. Would you have a baby with a man you couldn't trust?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> TBH I would find another stud. Would you have a baby with a man you couldn't trust?


Haha...that made me giggle.

Its not that I dont trust them its that I feel like everytime I try to talk to her or email her she short answers me and is....off with me. 

What do I do because he's the perfect stud dog for her?

Maybe I should try contacting them again and see if she has time for me (but I will make sure its after christmas then that cant be a excuse).


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

You are lucky that you are in a very popular breed. You may have to travel further, but what about using a brother of the stud or other relative especially if the lines go so well together.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Tanya1989 said:


> You are lucky that you are in a very popular breed. You may have to travel further, but what about using a brother of the stud or other relative especially if the lines go so well together.


The owner of the stud bred him and all his brothers are endorsed.

Hm.........

Its so much more easy if you have a tri bitch or a sable....tri boys that are all health tested, good for her, good in the show ring are rare.:scared:

Damn my love for blue's.:eek6:


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## nfp20 (Jun 29, 2010)

you can always encourage someone to health test their dog if you want to use at stud, you just pay for it to be done which is worth the price if you get a nice litter from a nice stud. The show ring isn't everything, there is an awful lot of tat being shown at the moment in my breed and being placed when better dogs might never see a ring.

Are you joining the Accredited Breeder Scheme?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

nfp20 said:


> you can always encourage someone to health test their dog if you want to use at stud, you just pay for it to be done which is worth the price if you get a nice litter from a nice stud. The show ring isn't everything, there is an awful lot of tat being shown at the moment in my breed and being placed when better dogs might never see a ring.
> 
> Are you joining the Accredited Breeder Scheme?


Yes I am.

I want a potential show pup from any litter I breed so because Alaska has 1 ear thats slightly lower than the other I have to pick a dog that compliments her too.

Its all so confusing. :lol:


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Its all so confusing. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Welcome to breeding lol


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> He is the right stud for her thats why I am so dead set on using him.
> He has been used to her sisters to great results and his line compliments her perfectly.
> 
> They just never tell you how to deal with a stud owner who doesnt seem to have time for you.


If he's already been used on your bitch's sisters, then what are you adding to the gene pool? Just some food for thought! I can understand that as this is your first litter, then it would be a safe choice, but you are simply producing lines that have already been produced.



> Its not that I dont trust them its that I feel like everytime I try to talk to her or email her she short answers me and is....off with me.
> 
> What do I do because he's the perfect stud dog for her?


I wouldn't bother with a stud dog owner like this. The stud owner may be like this, or they may have doubts about this mating - regardless of the reason, I would want a stud owner that was positive about the mating.

What makes you think he's perfect for your bitch? Is it because you've been told and he has been used on her sisters? Have you looked at other stud dogs? I look at many (OK, I don't show, so my criteria may be different, but I am still looking for certain qualities) and then start narrowing it down. There is no one perfect stud dog for a bitch. I would do more research and look wider before I made my decision.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> If he's already been used on your bitch's sisters, then what are you adding to the gene pool? Just some food for thought! I can understand that as this is your first litter, then it would be a safe choice, but you are simply producing lines that have already been produced.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with a stud dog owner like this. The stud owner may be like this, or they may have doubts about this mating - regardless of the reason, I would want a stud owner that was positive about the mating.
> 
> What makes you think he's perfect for your bitch? Is it because you've been told and he has been used on her sisters? Have you looked at other stud dogs? I look at many (OK, I don't show, so my criteria may be different, but I am still looking for certain qualities) and then start narrowing it down. There is no one perfect stud dog for a bitch. I would do more research and look wider before I made my decision.


Hey. 

I want to be safe for the first litter as I do want a show potential pup and using other stud dogs we are less likely to know the outcome gene wise.

He was the stud I wanted to use from day 1 but his owner's lack of interest is the only thing putting me off.

There are only a hand ful of tri dogs that are doing well in the ring at the moment and the best tri dog in the country is her dad so hes off limits 2 other tri males that are doing well are her half brothers.

There is a import that I would like to use hes currently in kent but I am not sure yet because I would like a show potential pup.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Yes, I can understand why it would be a safe (and good  ) option.

But look at it this way. You won't be mating her for a year. Yes, this dog could be the one (and you keep going with it), but use the time to look for others. Let's face it, if you take a second (or even third litter) from her, you won't be going back to the same stud so will need to look at other studs anyway.



> There are only a hand ful of tri dogs that are doing well in the ring at the moment and the best tri dog in the country is her dad so hes off limits 2 other tri males that are doing well are her half brothers.


I don't show, but am looking at competition dogs nonetheless, and I like to look outside the box. There may be differences with showing, but in my breed, there are good dogs out there than never get titles.

Just out of interest, why was he the dog you wanted to use from day 1?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Just out of interest, why was he the dog you wanted to use from day 1?


I met him at a show a few months before we got Alaska. Then we got her we knew we wanted to breed and contated his owner way back when but was told to contact her when Alaska was older even though I only wanted to discuss if she thought he was good for her too.

Then I contacted her again in July to let her know I was still interested was told again to come back when shes older...bumped into her at a show in october she said we were welcome to use him and then told me to contact her near the time. :scared:

I know the dog I want to use if I ever took a 2nd litter from Alaska. My mentors dog..hes pretty amazing but the two lines have never been crossed so we have no idea what the genetic effects would be like.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> I don't show, but am looking at competition dogs nonetheless, and I like to look outside the box. There may be differences with showing, but in my breed, there are good dogs out there than never get titles.


Its the same with showing, many get titles for all the wrong reasons to. Anyhow I would rather use a dog without a title from good lines that hasnt been 'over used' just because of the titles it holds - Just because a dog holds a CH title means nothing, the quality of the pups put to the wrong bitch/dog could be crap.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Its the same with showing, many get titles for all the wrong reasons to. Anyhow I would rather use a dog without a title from good lines that hasnt been 'over used' just because of the titles it holds - Just because a dog holds a CH title means nothing, the quality of the pups put to the wrong bitch/dog could be crap.


Very true...Alaska's granddad was over used now there are pups everywhere ranging from great show dogs with great coats to not so great. 

I shall have to have a deep think on this. I am all for going out of the line but I dont know what risk that will have on the chances of having pups that could be shown...my 2nd choice is shown.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I don't show, but am looking at competition dogs nonetheless, and I like to look outside the box. There may be differences with showing, but in my breed, there are good dogs out there than never get titles


Absolutely - I could write a list now of several outstanding producers on the show side of Labs who have had a remarkable impact on our breed but never got their titles. And two dogs in particular who produced an inordinate amount of SH CH across the globe.

There are many dogs in Labs who have made their mark - three immediately spring to mind, but I could probably write a whole thread on the subject  of those three - two didn't have titles.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

When I started breeding I listened to the stud owners as I thought 'they know best, after a couple of litters and talking to other breeders....I got my own mind! 

If she hasnt got time for you now do you think she will have time for questions when the girl is in pup or after? Or is it a 'mate and pay and leave' type thing? 

Just because they are show dogs doesnt mean that they will produce show puppies, if your heart is in another colour/pattern and all your dogs are going as puppies, most buyers are puppy homes and cant see a difference bewteen show/breed/pet quality, go for what you love, I love the tabby ragdolls, in the 'traditional' world im a outcast...!!


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

I dont need her advice just her dog to mate my dog. :lol: How rude does that sound.

I have Alaska's breeder as a close by mentor, a mentor and another breeder who has taken me under her wing so I have 3 bitch owners to help me through birthing and so on.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

well just ask her for her terms and thats it then!


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> well just ask her for her terms and thats it then!


I cant get her to talk to me for longer than a few seconds...she keeps saying "contact me closer tot he time" its like...thats no good because then I wont have time for a back up.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Colour would be the last thing on my list when picking a stud. I would also would want the stud owner to 'be on side' through out the pregnancy, and pups lives - she knows her lines, her dogs and if something was to occure with the pups she may be able to advise better than anyone else. If she is not willing to spend time now answering phone calls and the like, I would worry that if something did occure she wouldnt be bothering to answer emails/calls then either.

I would also be abit concered why she wants to know at the time and not before to sort things out - sounds like she is just studding her dogs out for her own gain.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Colour would be the last thing on my list when picking a stud. I would also would want the stud owner to 'be on side' through out the pregnancy, and pups lives - she knows her lines, her dogs and if something was to occure with the pups she may be able to advise better than anyone else. If she is not willing to spend time now answering phone calls and the like, I would worry that if something did occure she wouldnt be bothering to answer emails/calls then either.


Yeah,

Colours matter because I have to use a tri dog...blue merles cant be mated to anything but tri's.

If they are mated to blue merles they could risk blindness and deafness. If mated to sables they are then a colour which isnt accepted by the kennel club.

I will contact her after christmas if shes still not replying then I will use my 2nd choice and just risk it. I mean whats hte worst that could happen. :lol:

Watch this I will have a litter of 2 headed bald dogs.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Yeah,
> 
> Colours matter because I have to use a tri dog...blue merles cant be mated to anything but tri's.
> 
> ...


Of course dont mate two merels, I know about the merel genes, I meant in the fact that going out the breeders way to pick a stud in the hope of getting certain colours. I didnt mean ones that could have potential health risks.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont need her advice just her dog to mate my dog. :lol: How rude does that sound.
> 
> I have Alaska's breeder as a close by mentor, a mentor and another breeder who has taken me under her wing so I have 3 bitch owners to help me through birthing and so on.


It's not rude - but it is a shame. It doesn't matter how many mentors you've got - having a supportive stud dog owner on side who really cares is worth it's weight in gold. All my stud owners have been nice, and take an interest in my dogs and my next generation - my first stud owners take their grand-daughter in the ring when we see them at shows - and it's just lovely to have that


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Of course dont mate two merels, I know about the merel genes, I meant in the fact that going out the breeders way to pick a stud in the hope of getting certain colours. I didnt mean ones that could have potential health risks.


Ahh noooo your pretty limited..a merle tri mating crates merle's and tri's.
All the studs I have looked at usually create the same amount of merle's tri's as eachother.

Do you think going into a completely different line that has never been done with these two before is a good idea? :eek6:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

same in some of the cat breeds/colours I have to look for certain colours/patterns as some cant be bred to others.

actually the first person I called for help on my last litter was my stud owner to the litter, and we got it sorted asap


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Ahh noooo your pretty limited..a merle tri mating crates merle's and tri's.
> All the studs I have looked at usually create the same amount of merle's tri's as eachother.
> 
> Do you think going into a completely different line that has never been done with these two before is a good idea? :eek6:


Lucky in our breed, we can mate any colour to any colour, and all colours and markings are accepted.

You could go to another line that hasnt been put to Alaskas lines before - (if thats what you mean?). its certainly not un-common, and some where down the line without you knowing the two lines could have been crossed before.

Any matings a potential risk - with some you just have a better idea of type/quality of the pups likely to be born.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

swarthy said:


> It's not rude - but it is a shame. It doesn't matter how many mentors you've got - having a supportive stud dog owner on side who really cares is worth it's weight in gold. All my stud owners have been nice, and take an interest in my dogs and my next generation - my first stud owners take their grand-daughter in the ring when we see them at shows - and it's just lovely to have that


True...

Tbh I dont know what I am going to do. Maybe shes super busy? But its hard for me to look forward to spending time with her while our dogs are you know...when we cant even chat for 2 seconds about her stud terms.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Lucky in our breed, we can mate any colour to any colour, and all colours and markings are accepted.
> 
> You could go to another line that hasnt been put to Alaskas lines before - (if thats what you mean?). its certainly not un-common, and some where down the line without you knowing the two lines could have been crossed before.
> 
> Any matings a potential risk - with some you just have a better idea of type/quality of the pups likely to be born.


thats good, your lucky lol! how long have you been breeding? what do you breed? 



shetlandlover said:


> True...
> 
> Tbh I dont know what I am going to do. Maybe shes super busy? But its hard for me to look forward to spending time with her while our dogs are you know...when we cant even chat for 2 seconds about her stud terms.


just say 'id like ot find out the terms as i need to get paperwork sorted' if she says 'call me nearer the time' say 'why? im on the phone now' lol!

id find another stud one who like to talk doggie!


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Lucky in our breed, we can mate any colour to any colour, and all colours and markings are accepted.
> 
> You could go to another line that hasnt been put to Alaskas lines before - (if thats what you mean?). its certainly not un-common, and some where down the line without you knowing the two lines could have been crossed before.
> 
> Any matings a potential risk - with some you just have a better idea of type/quality of the pups likely to be born.


Yes thats what I mean.

I have just double checked his linage and he has the same linage as Kai and the 1st stud dog except 2 members of the family of which have been fully health tested including the DNA tests.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> thats good, your lucky lol! how long have you been breeding? what do you breed?


I dont breed my mum does, and its Chinese Cresteds - I just handle the dogs in the show ring  - I wont ever become a breeder until mum passes and I take over the affix, as until then I wont be wise enough, educated enough or responsible enough to take on something so precious.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

:lol:


Devil-Dogz said:


> I dont breed my mum does, and its Chinese Cresteds - I just handle the dogs in the show ring  - I wont ever become a breeder until mum passes and I take over the affix, as until then I wont be wise enough, educated enough or responsible enough to take on something so precious.


blimey theres me thinking your about 40 giving out the advice you do!   :lol:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> :lol:
> 
> blimey theres me thinking your about 40 giving out the advice you do!   :lol:


 haha not sure if I should take that as a compliment or not :lol: 
I have a wonderful mum and a close friend also with CC's who are teaching me well


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Right anyway,

The 2nd stud I cant use until I get the clear from Alaska's DNA test in Feb as he is a carrier.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> haha not sure if I should take that as a compliment or not :lol:
> I have a wonderful mum and a close friend also with CC's who are teaching me well


lol people say im going on 70, tea biccis and cats!! :eek6: :lol:



shetlandlover said:


> Right anyway,
> 
> The 2nd stud I cant use until I get the clear from Alaska's DNA test in Feb as he is a carrier.


is there anymore studs? if anydogs a carrier for anything i wouldnt use, some people have HCM tested ragdolls with 1 gene, why would i use it for astud??

dont know alot about the breed, there is one near me actually that we were going to re-home about 4years back kept escaping from their farm and they got fed up, we nearly hit it (we didnt!) and drove it back, asked us if we wanted him!! was a gorgeous dog, a 'lassie dog' as my partner says! is that the same dog


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Nah there is only 3 stud dogs that I could use because of who Alaska is.

Anyway advice needed please

If we used stud dog 2 his dad is barney we intended to keep a pup back from this litter to use with our new boy whos granddad is barney. Is that to closely related? 

I have a feeling that wipes out stud dog 2.

As by the time our boy ready to use at stud hopefully he will have done well in the ring.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I wouldnt avoid a dog because it was a carrier, I would however only put to clear and test pups at 4weeks old. 
Each breeder will give you different advice on whats to close. Its quite a personal thing I guess.
I would also not get your hopes up about the new pup, most people wont decide if a dogs worthy of breed until the dog/bitch is around 18months, 2years old - after its fully grown, proven its self in a certain area ect..


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I wouldnt avoid a dog because it was a carrier, I would however only put to clear and test pups at 4weeks old.
> Each breeder will give you different advice on whats to close. Its quite a personal thing I guess.
> I would also not get your hopes up about the new pup, most people wont decide if a dogs worthy of breed until the dog/bitch is around 18months, 2years old - after its fully grown, proven its self in a certain area ect..


I know I already said about her being clear and about the pup having to prove himself in the ring but I need to prepair as if I keep one back from the litter with stud dog 2 then its going to be distantly related to my dog and if I cant use my dog on it I will have to use stud dog 1 on it and have the same problem all over again.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

I know breeders that only ever keep girls, and when having a litter go out to stud. Gives them a better chance of getting a good quality litter, Instead of keeping one male that may only be suited to one bitch.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I know breeders that only ever keep girls, and when having a litter go out to stud. Gives them a better chance of getting a good quality litter. Instead of keeping one male that may only be suited to one bitch.


Aye but tri stud's are few and far between the top 3 are Alaska's dad and 2 brothers then there is stud dog 1 who isnt much hope at hte moment then threre is stud dog 2 which one I keep a bitch back I wont be able to use on her.

:scared:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

All gets confusing, as its so important to pick the right stud - I am sure there are plenty of great Tris out there that maybe havent been made up.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> All gets confusing, as its so important to pick the right stud - I am sure there are plenty of great Tris out there that maybe havent been made up.


I am hoping that I can sort something out. Plenty of time but urgh... :confused1:


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

some on here

Champdogs - Promoting Responsible Dog Breeding - Online Since 1999


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

There are two tri's on the stud page, I have checked both out to no availe.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> then there is stud dog 1 who isnt much hope at hte moment then threre is stud dog 2 which one I keep a bitch back I wont be able to use on her.


I think the one thing that strikes me having followed a lot of your posts is that you are looking at pedigrees before the dog. I would never base a decision on whether a future bitch would be suitable to use on a stud dog I had, much less before that stud dog had matured and be tested. It may be that your future stud will not be the best for ANY of your bitches, even if they appear so on paper.

I would look first at the dog, then at the pedigree. Concentrating on pedigrees before the dog/bitch itself limits your choice IMO.

There's nothing wrong with planning ahead, but you have no idea yet of what this litter will produce or how your boy will turn out. Things may seem good on paper, but it is the dog that counts and the pairing of the two, not how the pedigree looks.

Try to forget pedigrees for a moment. Start off with your bitch's good points and her faults. What are you looking to improve on and what do you like about her? Then start looking at dogs and the progeny they throw to see how they would match. When you've got a number that tick those boxes, then have a look at pedigrees and health tests.



> There are two tri's on the stud page, I have checked both out to no availe.


There may be reasons that you have dismissed them, but I wouldn't necessarily dismiss a dog simply by what is on the internet.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I know breeders that only ever keep girls, and when having a litter go out to stud. Gives them a better chance of getting a good quality litter, Instead of keeping one male that may only be suited to one bitch.


Agree - or may not be suitable for any of their bitches. And I think this is especially difficult for a novice first time breeder to judge this. Nothing wrong with having a stud, Shetlandlover, but it may be that he is used at stud but not to any of your girls.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I think the one thing that strikes me having followed a lot of your posts is that you are looking at pedigrees before the dog. I would never base a decision on whether a future bitch would be suitable to use on a stud dog I had, much less before that stud dog had matured and be tested. It may be that your future stud will not be the best for ANY of your bitches, even if they appear so on paper.
> 
> I would look first at the dog, then at the pedigree. Concentrating on pedigrees before the dog/bitch itself limits your choice IMO.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with planning ahead, but you have no idea yet of what this litter will produce or how your boy will turn out. Things may seem good on paper, but it is the dog that counts and the pairing of the two, not how the pedigree looks.


No, I make sure they are not closely related as with Kai I dont want any accidents that could mean in breeding.

The boy I am getting I didnt even know his pedigree until yesterday even then I only know his mum and dad and granddad as his granddad is a champion.

The only thing I look for on pedigree's is:
1) health tests of each dog - It takes me ages but I do it.
2) make sure they are not closely related - No accidents. :thumbup:

I pick based on health and parnets temperment. The boy I am getting I met his parents at the show and they where amazing.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> There may be reasons that you have dismissed them, but I wouldn't necessarily dismiss a dog simply by what is on the internet.


There is but I cant really put it up here.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> is there anymore studs? if anydogs a carrier for anything i wouldnt use, some people have HCM tested ragdolls with 1 gene, why would i use it for astud??


That's a very narrow minded view which could ultimately desicrate some breeds gene pools.

People talk about linebreeding and popular sires, but the exclusion of good quality dogs and bitches who are carriers for recessive conditions could do far more harm, much more quickly than either of the other two.

It's a bit of a pointless exercise having a houseful of clear girls if you limit yourself to just the clear boys rather than the best boy (clear or carrier).


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Nothing wrong with having a stud, Shetlandlover, but it may be that he is used at stud but not to any of your girls.


I dont fully follow....as I have been also told on this thread to use studs that have never been used to a dog in our line so you wouldnt know how they turn out either. But told to still try.

If this boy is good at shows and works out which there is a 50/50 chance he may not I will then use him on my girl/girls depends it could be years off and see how it goes.

Like DD said there is a risk with any mating.

My main plan for him is that he will be used to help the breeder with her line as she has lost alot of her line though not breeding frequent enough to keep it going.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I dont fully follow....as I have been also told on this thread to use studs that have never been used to a dog in our line so you wouldnt know how they turn out either. But told to still try.


From memory, I was referring to your point that one stud you didn't want to use because you wanted to use your boy on the pup that you keep and if you used that stud you wouldn't be able to. But that is really limiting.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> From memory, I was referring to your point that one stud you didn't want to use because you wanted to use your boy on the pup that you keep and if you used that stud you wouldn't be able to. But that is really limiting.


Yes. But if I keep a pup back from stud 2 I will not only be limited to not being able to use my boy but limited to using stud 1 which is the current problem that stud 1 will not be in contact or interested in the litter.

Sorry If I am not making sense my blood sugar dropped and had to get somthing to eat.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Very true...Alaska's granddad was over used now there are pups everywhere ranging from great show dogs with great coats to not so great.


we have to remember there's only so much a great stud dog can do to improve the breed, it takes 2 to tango.People will always go with the flow and use a popular stud regardless of if he'll compliment their bitch.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

I agree with Dexter. A lot of people will try to match their bitch to the popular stud of the day instead of finding a male that properly compliments their bitch.

What kind/colour of pup do you intend to keep? Maybe you should forget about Blue Merle bitches and concentrate on a bitch that is NOT limited on what she can be bred to colour wise. I think you've set yourself up for failure to be honest and I do not think it a wise idea to bring another male puppy into your home when you intend to keep a bitch puppy from a litter less than a year later.

I understand that Shelties have small litters and whatnot, but I think you're trying to jump in at the deep-end instead of doing the proper research *before* getting your foundation stock. I'm sure we can all see that you are taking measures to learn and you're asking questions, but you don't seem to be making connections outside of your "mentors" and the "Stud Dog Owners".

How many times have you attempted to show Alaska? How many shows have you been to just to mill about and meet people in the breed? Raising a show pup isn't a simple or cheap task, even if you only entered a single show every month, you can expect to pay in excess of £250-£360 on entry fees alone (per dog) and that's just for a single class. Then you have the petrol required to get there, depending on where you live and hotels if you need to stay overnight. We use about half a tank minimum for most shows that we attend, but we try to keep to within 150-200 miles. Also, having three youngster shelties how do you plan to show all of them extensively?

At LKA there was an average of 11 dogs per class in your breed for instance, nearly 150 dogs entered. Birmingham is one of the most accessible cities in the country and Kai and Alaska would have been eligible to be shown. Why haven't you started showing yet? I would suggest holding off on planning any litters for "show pups" until you know what you're doing in the show ring and decide whether or not showing is actually something that you could see yourself really investing in.

Maybe if you get out to more shows, meet some more people outside of your mentor's circle and that, you'll get more options for Alaska if you do decide to go ahead with a litter.

Just a few suggestions, I think you need to take a step back and get out and make more connections. You said that you only have two options for studs because of "who Alaska is". To me, that sounds like there are some reputable/ethical folk in the breed who don't want to touch the lines that Alaska has for some reason or another, could you expand on that?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Cassandra gives excellent advice and put is much better than I did. I think you are rushing before you can walk. It's not uncommon - there was another member here who did to, but my advice would be to slow down - get out showing and meeting people and learn.



> and I do not think it a wise idea to bring another male puppy into your home when you intend to keep a bitch puppy from a litter less than a year later.


Are you bringing another male pup in? You already have one and have one scare regarding an accidental mating - how will you cope with so many young dogs and bitches together. This is a hard enough job for experienced breeders with kennel facilities, much less someone inexperienced who keeps all their dogs in the home.

You obviously want to do this properly, so my advice would be to slow down, get Alaska shown and out there, get to know more people and more dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Woah...chill out.

First off Alaska was to be shown in October but she came into season so I couldnt show her. She's off to the May show instead as the one in March/April will fall on her season. Then she has another show in July hopefully.

Kai is being nuetered at 12months old. He's being used for agility anyway so he doesnt need to be entire.

We have already had a good talk with family who are willing to put up the new pup when Alaska comes into season and my father has offered to get me some real kennel's fitted in the garage instead of crates as thats what we do when she's in season crate the male while she comes out then switch over.



> Why haven't you started showing yet?


Alaska broke her leg so she couldnt do puppy showing and her season fell on both open shows.



> Raising a show pup isn't a simple or cheap task, even if you only entered a single show every month, you can expect to pay in excess of £250-£360 on entry fees alone (per dog) and that's just for a single class.


Yes and?



> Maybe if you get out to more shows, meet some more people outside of your mentor's circle and that, you'll get more options for Alaska if you do decide to go ahead with a litter.


Um...have you not read any post I have made lately? I went to Blackpool dog show thats how I came up with stud dog 2. And went to my show in October which is were stud dog 1's owner offered for me to use him.



> Also, having three youngster shelties how do you plan to show all of them extensively?


My OH and me both intend to show the dogs and Kai isnt being shown unless its lightly and that will only be when Alaska is in season to mis a show.



> You said that you only have two options for studs because of "who Alaska is". To me, that sounds like there are some reputable/ethical folk in the breed who don't want to touch the lines that Alaska has for some reason or another, could you expand on that?


I am highly offended actually that you think there is something wrong with my girls lines?

Alaska's mother is a JW and her father has more CC's than you can shake a stick at. Her granddad was top stud dog before he passed and is a champion.

Her mothers dad was a champ and had perfect 0/0 hips and DNA cea clear.

I am dismissing just any old stud because like people keep saying "not all studs are perfect for all bitches" thats why I wont use any old stud.
I want to use a stud that has been shown 1 of the dogs that I said that to wasnt shown at all as I believe he is to tall on top of other things.

This thread was about me getting advice not being told about my failure to show because my bitch's seasons land on show dates.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> Are you bringing another male pup in? You already have one and have one scare regarding an accidental mating - how will you cope with so many young dogs and bitches together. This is a hard enough job for experienced breeders with kennel facilities, much less someone inexperienced who keeps all their dogs in the home.


To be fair SL's house has about 5 million different rooms in it and is split into 2 different halves. I call one the east and one the west wing. :thumbup:

If Kai is getting neutered when he hits 12 months, and family have offered to take the other dog when Alaska is in season then I don't, personally, see the issue. I've also offered to take any dog as well for a month or two to avoid any issues as above.

I am highly allergic to cats and I mean really badly allergic to the point I can actually go into anaphalatic (how is that spelt!?) shock. But when I went over she had shut them completely in one half of the house and I didn't even know they existed. The Epi pen stayed firmly in my bag.

I also don't think its fair that she's being criticised for not wanting to use any old stud on her dog?

This thread is in danger of going the way the other thread did when she was asking for help. She is asking all the questions she can to further her knowledge, as well as doing the research with her sponsors and other breeders in her breed.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> True...
> 
> Tbh I dont know what I am going to do. Maybe shes super busy? But its hard for me to look forward to spending time with her while our dogs are you know...when we cant even chat for 2 seconds about her stud terms.


tbh some of the old school breeders do have that attitude.they're not rude its just the way they are. as i suggested before i'd give it a few more months before contacting her, in the mean time get showing her you never know you may find another stud that you prefer.She nees to be shown , there's plenty of open shows about.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

So you're only trying to attend champ shows? What about open shows? There are LOADS of those floating around and the biggies like LKA and that. I know Alaska broke her leg and then was in season for October, but LKA wasn't in October, many numerous shows that have happened or been rescheduled due to weather haven't been in October and there are PLENTY of shows scheduled between now and May next year and thereafter....

I just don't understand why all of the sudden Kai, who is still listed as a stud on your website is getting neutered when you were so convinced just a couple weeks ago that he would be the Sire for Alaska's second or so litter? To me it just seems that you're rushing around like a headless chicken and you're not taking the time to get yourself situated in the breed properly. Many long-term breeders wont take you seriously if you don't at least make attempts to become "part of the decor" in your breed. You've been in the breed for 5 minutes and you're already on the possibility of 4 shelties in your home permanently by this time next year. Yes, everyone has to start somewhere, but like you said yourself, you hadn't even seen the PEDIGREE INFORMATION for the male puppy you're bringing in until the other day.

This thread is about you breeding, at the end of the day, something that I don't believe you've thought through yet and still need to research and work at. From what you've said, you'd probably only get Alaska out at maybe 3 shows before she's due to be mated in October next year, BUT the whole point of breeding her is to produce a show puppy for you? How are you supposed to work with a show pup if you're not well seasoned with showing yourself?

I'm just confused that you put so much more time and effort into the puppy-producing side of things rather than seeing the whole picture.

Just an FYI, I don't care how big your house is or what Alaska's ANCESTORS have done, I care what Alaska accomplishes and what she passes on her 50% of the genes to her puppies.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

casandra said:


> I just don't understand why all of the sudden Kai, who is still listed as a stud on your website is getting neutered when you were so convinced just a couple weeks ago that he would be the Sire for Alaska's second or so litter?


Maybe she's had some advice telling her not to breed him?

Just a thought.

Phew, one thing I've learned from all this, I'll never bother breeding anything myself. Be frightened to death of asking for any advice... love to know how you lot started off.

:thumbup:


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks to everyone who gave me the advice I asked for. I am now bowing out of this thread as it seems some people are just rooting for a argument.

They are my dogs, if I want to neuter Kai thats my choice. If I want to get another puppy thats my choice. If I want to use a good stud rather than any old dog that isnt health tested thats my choice.

Unless you breed I wont take your advice over my mentors. 

The next show I have them both in for is a open show..

From now on if I want advice I will PM members I trust.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

She had loads of advice before. If she wants to run, that's her choice. I was only trying to ask questions about why she's "working" so hard for dogs that aren't even alive yet, but wont put the same effort into the animals that she currently has before breeding from them.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Maybe she's had some advice telling her not to breed him?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> ...


how i started off breeding................. i bought a pup from a well known kennel, showed it and the was advised by breeder to mate her. i choose the stud dog.anyone can ask for advice on here some choose not to like the answers. I'm not suggesting SL is one of these just answering your question.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

casandra said:


> but wont put the same effort into the animals that she currently has before breeding from them.


What's that mean exactly, no effor into the animals that she currently has before breeding from them?

She has stated she is going to show, once she can. She's also stated several times she intends at this point to breed next year, but can also put that back if needs be or she feels she is not ready.

She's not running, simply asked a question, got the answer and once again been pulled into a huge argument!!

Woe betide anyone not in the clique asking for advice eh?!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

Shetlandlover, please don't take this personally, it is meant to be helpful. Take your time, there is no rush, you are 20 and have a lifetime ahead of you. I completely understand how easy it is to be enthusiastic when you first start out, but you have so much time ahead of you and buying in pups at the speed you have done without the knowledge is expensive and can lead to problems if they don't turn out as you hope, even if you can keep them all, there is a limit to the amount of dogs you can do justice to.

You mention that you saw your ideal stud for Alaska before she was even born - I've not worked it out, but I'm guessing that is at least 18 months if not 2 years ago. Many young dogs will have been brought on since then - have you seen any of them?



> There are two tri's on the stud page, I have checked both out to no availe.


The thing is, the place to look for studs is not on the internet - but out at shows, by word of mouth. I appreciate you haven't been able to show Alaska yet, because of injury and season, but that shouldn't stop you going to the shows, getting out there, looking at dogs and talking to other breeders. The show folk I know are pretty much at shows most weekends. Certainly, in the working side, people are out competing/training/working every weekend so you get to actually see the dogs.

Just one more thought - and again, don't take this the wrong way it is meant as helpful advice, but, I think you may find that other breeders may not be as helpful to you as the would be if you took things a little more slowly. Not because they aren't nice, but because they too can see the pitfalls of rushing into things and are reluctant to help in these situations. You may find this is the problem with the stud dog owner you are hoping to use. Please take this in the way it is intended.



> I also don't think its fair that she's being criticised for not wanting to use any old stud on her dog?


There's no criticism that I can see, simply advice based on what Shetlandlover has said. She obviously wants to do things properly and that is to be commended, but there are signs that she is rushing before she is walking. The advice is meant to be helpful.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> There's no criticism that I can see, simply advice based on what Shetlandlover has said. She obviously wants to do things properly and that is to be commended, but there are signs that she is rushing before she is walking. The advice is meant to be helpful.


:thumbup: I've just PMd you. Don't want to start talking about certain stuff on here!!


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

No, SL, I have not bred a litter and have no plans for a litter in the near future. Right now I'm doing what I advised you to do. I'm getting out there, making contacts, learning all I can about my breed and showing. I am learning, and you need to be learning about things that AREN'T BREEDING RELATED imho. You don't have to take my advice, but I've had several people thank me for it and say it is good advice.

You need to get out there and prove to the long-standing breeders that you are serious and not just in it to make puppies.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

casandra said:


> AREN'T BREEDING RELATED imho.


Sounds interesting, like what?


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

She's never shown from what I can gather, she should spend more time learning the ins and outs of the ring. Grooming can be important too in some breeds, but really campaigning a dog is something she's never done and needs to become proficient in. If she plans to do Agility with Kai, she needs to start the foundation work with him, he's old enough.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Sounds interesting, like what?


i quess . comstruction, movement of a dog. looking at dogs faults and seeing what faults your own dogs have compared to others,and what to look for in a potential stud. going to seminars maybe.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Exactly, Dexter 

Learning to be your own person in a breed can be difficult. If you rely on your mentors too much, you can unintentionally make bad decisions. It happens in every breed, but just the fact that she's not out at shows and is relying on the internet shows she's not ready to breed yet. Movement, Structure, Pedigrees, Faults etc etc.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm just going to give you my advice Shetland Lover, it's a bit off topic but i'm not being rude and at the end of the day like you said it's your choice . 
If I were you I would postpone breeding for the time being. I would start going to as many shows as possible. I'm not sure if you've been in the breed long or if Alaska and Kai are your first shelties? Theres Manchester champ show in January, I think the entries were extended till midnight tonight. I personally think you should keep researching breeding, lines ect but put it on hold for a while - you will always be able to do it in the future. Start going to shows more often, even if it is just to mill around or take Kai when Alaska is in season . I'm sorry but I don't see how you can only have been at two shows this year (sorry if its more, just going by what I seen) and expect to breed Alaska. Breeding is unbelievably serious and in my eyes showing/working goes hand in hand with it. You have to be committed. Two shows in a year isn't committed. We don't even intend to breed and have been to about 12/13 champ shows this year up and down the country - we also missed 4 that we had entered due to someone losing their coat at a bad time! We don't have stupid amounts of money, we don't have a big massive van, we've never been able to stay at a travel inn overnight due to work the next day or lack of funds. Yet we've travelled to shows as far as Bournemouth. We've just been given pick of the litter from one of the top breeders in our breed in the country. Why? Because we are committed. If you seriously want to expand your Sheltie family, I presume you would like top dogs from top breeders - your not going to get this unless you prove to them that your passoniate about your dogs, showing and most importantly your chosen breed. I think you seem like a lovely person and I think you will make a wonderful breeder one day but I just think you need to slow things down just a little bit. x


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Theres Manchester champ show in January, I think the entries were extended till midnight tonight.


OMG if thats true will check now I shall be over the moon missed the entry date first time round, and have Dizni to get out


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Since no one seems to listen here goes.

*Alaska is 14 month old.*

We got her in December 2009.
She broke her leg in April 2010.
She was in a brace for 3 months then she had to leanr to walk on it fully again.

She was booked into the October show, she came into season. 
She is booked into ring craft in January and her first show is in May. 
We are also hoping to go to one in either june/july depends when that falls on.

Kai is being hip scored in April then hes doing his agility training in May.


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

casandra said:


> No, SL, I have not bred a litter and have no plans for a litter in the near future. Right now I'm doing what I advised you to do. I'm getting out there, making contacts, learning all I can about my breed and showing. I am learning, and you need to be learning about things that AREN'T BREEDING RELATED imho. You don't have to take my advice, but I've had several people thank me for it and say it is good advice.
> 
> You need to get out there and prove to the long-standing breeders that you are serious and not just in it to make puppies.


Yes we are getting out there and learning what we can about breeding and showing but as we've been told over and over again we need to do as much research as we can about breeding.

We are wanting to start our own lines and if we take it as slow as you are suggesting we will be old decrepit and probably die before we see our line flourish.



> Shetlandlover, please don't take this personally, it is meant to be helpful. Take your time, there is no rush, you are 20 and have a lifetime ahead of you.


Again age is brought into it. I know 20 seems young to start doing all of this but then again if we don't start young we won't get anywhere and be to old to do anything about it. Our passion, love and entire life is our dogs. We moved to give them a better life.

Alaska herself is only 14 months old not like we've not been showing her for years and suddenly we want to know and do everything. We've been researching for years and now we're asking real people for advice it seems like everything we try to do is wrong.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Since no one seems to listen here goes.
> 
> *Alaska is 14 month old.*
> 
> ...


But I think it's trying to be said that even if you can't enter your dog in a show, you could still show commitment (to the breed and breeding) by attending? Talking to experienced breeders and learning all you can. That's how I read posts and simply think people are trying to helpful


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

casandra said:


> She's never shown from what I can gather, she should spend more time learning the ins and outs of the ring. Grooming can be important too in some breeds, but really campaigning a dog is something she's never done and needs to become proficient in. If she plans to do Agility with Kai, she needs to start the foundation work with him, he's old enough.


1) I think that from my experience with horses, best way to learn is by doing regarding showing and she will be next year. You can watch and read all the books you want. Won't make you any better at it.

2) Grooming...hmmm, yes, ever seen one of her dogs? They are immaculate.

3) Campaigning, don't know anything about it so can't comment.

4) Agility, I want to put Rupert into flyball but was told not to start with him till he is 12 months. Kai is just coming up for 8 I think, he's behind Roo by a month or so.



dexter said:


> i quess . comstruction, movement of a dog. looking at dogs faults and seeing what faults your own dogs have compared to others,and what to look for in a potential stud. *going to seminars mayb*e.


Would studying for a degree in Canine Studies perhaps cover some of this?



Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I'm just going to give you my advice Shetland Lover, it's a bit off topic but i'm not being rude and at the end of the day like you said it's your choice .
> If I were you I would postpone breeding for the time being. I would start going to as many shows as possible. I'm not sure if you've been in the breed long or if Alaska and Kai are your first shelties? Theres Manchester champ show in January, I think the entries were extended till midnight tonight. I personally think you should keep researching breeding, lines ect but put it on hold for a while - you will always be able to do it in the future. Start going to shows more often, even if it is just to mill around or take Kai when Alaska is in season . I'm sorry but I don't see how you can only have been at two shows this year (sorry if its more, just going by what I seen) and expect to breed Alaska. Breeding is unbelievably serious and in my eyes showing/working goes hand in hand with it. You have to be committed. Two shows in a year isn't committed. We don't even intend to breed and have been to about 12/13 champ shows this year up and down the country - we also missed 4 that we had entered due to someone losing their coat at a bad time! We don't have stupid amounts of money, we don't have a big massive van, we've never been able to stay at a travel inn overnight due to work the next day or lack of funds. Yet we've travelled to shows as far as Bournemouth. We've just been given pick of the litter from one of the top breeders in our breed in the country. Why? Because we are committed. If you seriously want to expand your Sheltie family, I presume you would like top dogs from top breeders - your not going to get this unless you prove to them that your passoniate about your dogs, showing and most importantly your chosen breed. I think you seem like a lovely person and I think you will make a wonderful breeder one day but I just think you need to slow things down just a little bit. x


What a nice, unforceful post. :thumbup:


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

There was LKA this month too though? Then theres Boston in January (entries are closed though) and then Manchester at the end of January? Why May too theres shows before in April? Not sure when your breed club shows are either? She doesn't have to go to ringcraft before she goes to a show either, i'm sure your aware of the basics so you can start practising now! Although it's great that your asking all these questions now, I still think you should take a step back because if you show her and she is continuously unplaced/crap placings then you will have to accept that you can't breed from her sadly . Just don't get your hopes up too high yet x


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> But I think it's trying to be said that even if you can't enter your dog in a show, you could still show commitment (to the breed and breeding) by attending? Talking to experienced breeders and learning all you can. That's how I read posts and simply think people are trying to helpful


Yes that would be a start I have attended more shows than I have showed at..'getting your face out there' kinda thing.

I do agree that the dogs should prove them selves first, as for me that is part of producing show pups/being a show breeder.


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> But I think it's trying to be said that even if you can't enter your dog in a show, you could still show commitment (to the breed and breeding) by attending? Talking to experienced breeders and learning all you can. That's how I read posts and simply think people are trying to helpful


I agree and we did attend the show in October. We want to go to as many as we can but can't get to ones hundreds of miles out without a lot of planning. You have to keep in mind i have to make sure i can eat at all of the shows before going other wise i'll be quite ill. We talked to everyone at the show who would give us the time of day, which were most people.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes that would be a start I have attended more shows than I have showed at..'getting your face out there' kinda thing.
> 
> I do agree that the dogs should prove them selves first, as for me that is part of producing show pups/being a show breeder.


So does no breeder ever not breed from a show dog, even if the dogs got good lines? (genuine question)


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> So does no breeder ever not breed from a show dog, even if the dogs got good lines? (genuine question)


Some breeders will use dogs with minor faults, that for what ever reason can not be shown I guess (but not first time breeders) - but thats not the point here, this is the start of SLs lines - so by rights (IMO) she should be using the best foundation dogs she can - ones that have proved to be good foundation dogs to.


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes that would be a start I have attended more shows than I have showed at..'getting your face out there' kinda thing.
> 
> I do agree that the dogs should prove them selves first, as for me that is part of producing show pups/being a show breeder.


Make your minds up, people have been saying near the beginning of the thread that the best stud dogs are not always the one going to and winning at shows. 
:confused1: Confused much:confused1:

TBH there is so many different and contradictory posts/advice. How in the hell are we meant to know which way to go. Can you all just come up with WTF we should be doing and then post please it is very difficult to find which posts are actually useful to us.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> I agree and we did attend the show in October. We want to go to as many as we can but can't get to ones hundreds of miles out without a lot of planning. You have to keep in mind i have to make sure i can eat at all of the shows before going other wise i'll be quite ill. We talked to everyone at the show who would give us the time of day, which were most people.


I've never been to a show where there isn't food and a mcdonalds near by lols - i would not be a happy bunny otherwise :lol:. A lot of people take packed lunches too, the food at shows can be very expensive! That's the thing though, you have to start being prepared to travel for shows. I mean with us we live in Scotland and we've drove all over the country for shows - we can never stay in a holiday inn because frankly we dont have the money, so we're driving down and driving back on the same day. That's after spending about 5 hours on each dog (we'll have three this year lmao!), packing the car ect - it can be exhausting, but it's part of the process x


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> but thats not the point here, .


I wasn't saying it was, was just asking a question.

All it needed was the first bit of the answer.

Anyway, edit, just remembered, that people earlier in the thread were saying that the best stud dogs were not always the ones that won a lot at shows/with the best pedigree.

Now I'm getting confused and I don't even want to breed!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

SC7639 said:


> Make your minds up, people have been saying near the beginning of the thread that the best stud dogs are not always the one going to and winning at shows.
> :confused1: Confused much:confused1:
> 
> TBH there is so many different and contradictory posts/advice. How in the hell are we meant to know which way to go. Can you all just come up with WTF we should be doing and then post please it is very difficult to find which posts are actually useful to us.


No one said that  we said dogs with out titles - you should still be looking for dogs that have proved them selves as good examples. titles or no titles.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> No one said that  we said dogs with out titles - you should still be looking for dogs that have proved them selves as good examples. titles or no titles.


I thought titles meant you win shows?

So glad I got a common mutt.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Make your minds up, people have been saying near the beginning of the thread that the best stud dogs are not always the one going to and winning at shows.
> :confused1: Confused much:confused1:
> 
> TBH there is so many different and contradictory posts/advice. How in the hell are we meant to know which way to go. Can you all just come up with WTF we should be doing and then post please it is very difficult to find which posts are actually useful to us.


Yes, your right some of the best stud dogs and brood bitches are never show for one reason or another - yet they produce top quality dogs. Why? Because the breeders are absolute experts in their breed, they tend to have been breeding for years and know what they are looking for in a stud dog/brood bitch. No offence, but not someone who has been in the breed as short as you. Or me in my breeds for that matter  x

ETA: Not to mention that these dogs will probably never/rarely be 'studded' out. They will be for the breeders own use. x


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Some breeders will use dogs with minor faults, that for what ever reason can not be shown I guess (but not first time breeders) - but thats not the point here, this is the start of SLs lines - so by rights (IMO) she should be using the best foundation dogs she can - ones that have proved to be good foundation dogs to.


That makes sense 

I guess if you (generalising) rush into breeding just because you have a half decent bitch, there is every chance you'll only ever end up with half decent puppies :confused1:

I would imagine that owners of good quality stud dogs would also want to see people approaching them who have bitches who have been shown and are of a good standard? Or maybe that doesn't come into it so much?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Amethyst said:


> I would imagine that owners of good quality stud dogs would also want to see people approaching them who have bitches who have been shown and are of a good standard? Or maybe that doesn't come into it so much?


I'd expect that would be down to them being decent owners I suppose. No doubt you'll always get those with a top notch example that knows its a way to make a quick ££££ .


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I thought titles meant you win shows?
> 
> So glad I got a common mutt.


Titles is such things like the dog being a champion, a dog that is a champion need to gain 3 ccs to gain the titles. some good dogs, well infact alot of good dogs will never get all 3 there will be some with one, or two ccs, some with reserves ccs. They have still proved themselves just not gained the full CH title.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> I thought titles meant you win shows?
> 
> So glad I got a common mutt.


A CH (champion) title means that you have gained three CC's. A JW title means you won a certain number of classes giving you a certain number of points before the dog was 18 months. A SHCM means you have gained a certain number of points at open shows. But you see, a dog can have gained 2 CC's, missed out on a JW by 1 point and not be shown at open shows, if you get what I mean. It can be very confusing lols x


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Titles is such things like the dog being a champion, a dog that is a champion need to gain 3 ccs to gain the titles. some good dogs, well infact alot of good dogs will never get all 3 there will be some with one, or two ccs, some with reserves ccs. They have still proved themselves just not gained the full CH title.


I wouldn't class that as being proven though, that's runners up?



Fuzzbugs!x said:


> A CH (champion) title means that you have gained three CC's. A JW title means you won a certain number of classes giving you a certain number of points before the dog was 18 months. A SHCM means you have gained a certain number of points at open shows. But you see, a dog can have gained 2 CC's, missed out on a JW by 1 point and not be shown at open shows, if you get what I mean. It can be very confusing lols x


That's a better explanation, get it now. Same with horses really. You can win x amount of locals to qualify for countie, then counties for nationals etc.

Still, to me a proven show jumper is one that's won competitions and come 1st in SOMETHING RECOGNISED, such as a County Show. A local show wouldn't cut it for me.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> That makes sense
> 
> I guess if you (generalising) rush into breeding just because you have a half decent bitch, there is every chance you'll only ever end up with half decent puppies :confused1:
> 
> I would imagine that owners of good quality stud dogs would also want to see people approaching them who have bitches who have been shown and are of a good standard? Or maybe that doesn't come into it so much?


Alot of breeders that stud their dogs out will want the bitch to have gained certain placings before letting them use their dog - like being highly placed at most shows, like 1st and 2nds not 4ths and 5ths.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> I'd expect that would be down to them being decent owners I suppose. No doubt you'll always get those with a top notch example that knows its a way to make a quick ££££ .


yes 

I know of one breeder who boasts about being top judge, how little she breeds, for quality, not quantity etc etc. Yet it seems she is not so choosy who uses her stud dog 

Not suggesting all breeders are like this though! Anyway, I digress


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Glad you understood the other explanation better - because its certainly not runners up.

The dog would have had to get first in their class to be able to compete for the CC


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> I've never been to a show where there isn't food and a mcdonalds near by lols - i would not be a happy bunny otherwise :lol:. A lot of people take packed lunches too, the food at shows can be very expensive! That's the thing though, you have to start being prepared to travel for shows. I mean with us we live in Scotland and we've drove all over the country for shows - we can never stay in a holiday inn because frankly we dont have the money, so we're driving down and driving back on the same day. That's after spending about 5 hours on each dog (we'll have three this year lmao!), packing the car ect - it can be exhausting, but it's part of the process x


That's true there are a lot of mac donalds but i can't eat anything filling from there or anywhere else really, i mean if they let me bring me own food and cook it in there ovens but i doubt that.

Dos anyone even know about my allergies, they are: Glutain(Wheet, Rye, Barley, Oats), Lactose, Soya, Lemon, Mellon, Olive, Yeast.

I also have ME so that doesn't help at shows either not eating fulling or right stuff doesn't help so going to far out is not really an option if i am to be useful.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> That's true there are a lot of mac donalds but i can't eat anything filling from there or anywhere else really, i mean if they let me bring me own food and cook it in there ovens but i doubt that.
> 
> Dos anyone even know about my allergies, they are: Glutain(Wheet, Rye, Barley, Oats), Lactose, Soya, Lemon, Mellon, Olive, Yeast.
> 
> I also have ME so that doesn't help at shows either not eating fulling or right stuff doesn't help so going to far out is not really an option if i am to be useful.


Ahh  That could be a problem! Sorry to hear about all that. Where abouts do you live and i'll have a look and see what ones are near you? x


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Ahh  That could be a problem! Sorry to hear about all that. Where abouts do you live and i'll have a look and see what ones are near you? x


It's ok we're just trying to say we are doing everything we possibly can it's just not easy, we'd like advice we can follow and know we have made the right choice but a lot of the questions we ask do go unanswered and then we know no more than when we asked.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I've never been to a show where there isn't food and a mcdonalds near by lols - i would not be a happy bunny otherwise . A lot of people take packed lunches too, the food at shows can be very expensive!


hmmm..... you show folk dont' know when you're born 

Try going to working test or field trial! No food, no drink - except a very welcome cuppa and piece of homemade cake at the end.
We have to take everything. Not only that but being in the middle of nowhere (albeit normal beautiful estates/countryside unaccessible to the public) there are no LOOS!  Yep.... anyone considering working their dog needs to become adept at finding suitable bushes (away from all the other competitors waiting) and avoiding stinging nettles!


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> hmmm..... you show folk dont' know when you're born
> 
> Try going to working test or field trial! No food, no drink - except a very welcome cuppa and piece of homemade cake at the end.
> We have to take everything. Not only that but being in the middle of nowhere (albeit normal beautiful estates/countryside unaccessible to the public) there are no LOOS!  Yep.... anyone considering working their dog needs to become adept at finding suitable bushes (away from all the other competitors waiting) and avoiding stinging nettles!


omg  i would be so sad haha :lol: i need my grub!! and my toilets :|!!! i'm sure the dogs would happily go with you though haha - i'll just wait at home :lol:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> and avoiding stinging nettles!


Easier said than done. I stung my arse once when having a pee in a bush at a cross country trial.

Took hours for it to stop hurting. Looked like a right nob trying to ride my horse. Only consolation was I could stand most of the way round as we were jumping, but the bits in between when I was trying to gather him back up...not good!


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> That's true there are a lot of mac donalds but i can't eat anything filling from there or anywhere else really, i mean if they let me bring me own food and cook it in there ovens but i doubt that.
> 
> Dos anyone even know about my allergies, they are: Glutain(Wheet, Rye, Barley, Oats), Lactose, Soya, Lemon, Mellon, Olive, Yeast.
> 
> I also have ME so that doesn't help at shows either not eating fulling or right stuff doesn't help so going to far out is not really an option if i am to be useful.


I'm sorry, but I have several disabilities that affect my diet as well as knees without cartilage, SAD etc etc and I seem to be able to survive. If I had those sorts of allergies, I know I'd be able to live off of veggies (carrot sticks, celery sticks, with lacto-free cheese spreads or peanut butter) and fruit juices/water throughout a day or weekend or I could prepare food the day before and bring it along in a pack.

I'm sure you know your diet well, but tbh, I usually travel with "me-safe" snacks and extra medication just in case. I bring my own cooler if need be, I'm sure my dobe or her littermates would be happy to guard my food lol! If you are both unable to attend shows consistently because of one thing or another to do with having a disability or being a carer, would you think this could be an indicator that maybe you're both not ready to be breeding? I know breeders that only sell locally, but a large number of breeders will sell nationwide, what happens if you urgently need to rush off to collect a dog you have bred? Just something to consider. I also bring my own folding chairs, special shoes, walking stick etc along to shows and just make sure you make your provisions well in advanced.

I plan out each show and my DH does not enjoy being at Dog Shows where we're not showing or rushing between two breed halls etc. I have to ensure my health is in order before I can leave home or the showgrounds. I've done lots of work on conformation and movement for my breeds and loads of research on pedigrees and health problems, I'm even starting new resources and applications to assist with breeders and exhibitioners and I've not set foot in a ring yet. My pup was 6 months on the day of her first show entry and I decided to hold her back as she hadn't grown to the size I'd expect her to be at that age. She would've done quite well in the USA/CA ring, but not a Euro ring lol! I am quite sure I've probably wasted quite a bit on entry fees as I think it will be a fair few months before she catches up to the size of other bitches her age.

We all make mistakes when we're young, but the one thing I've found (only in my young 20's as well) is that I do have the rest of my life to produce puppies after I learn my breeds and gain some real experience with them. I know you think that you need to get into breeding at a young age, but honest to bob you really don't. There are plenty of puppies and homeless dogs to go around in this world, until you know what you are doing and can safely offer the same advice to others that you are asking about at this point in your lives, then you have no place in producing puppies. That is just my opinion, but to be cheeky, I think it is a dern good one.

I wish you the best luck in future, and didn't mean for this to turn into an argument.


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Fuzzbugs!x said:


> Yes, your right some of the best stud dogs and brood bitches are never show for one reason or another - yet they produce top quality dogs. Why? Because the breeders are absolute experts in their breed, they tend to have been breeding for years and know what they are looking for in a stud dog/brood bitch. No offence, but not someone who has been in the breed as short as you. Or me in my breeds for that matter  x
> 
> ETA: Not to mention that these dogs will probably never/rarely be 'studded' out. They will be for the breeders own use. x


Ok then but why are you not giving useful and advice that was actually asked for is what i'd like to know!


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

casandra said:


> I'm sorry, but I have several disabilities that affect my diet as well as knees without cartilage, SAD etc etc and I seem to be able to survive. If I had those sorts of allergies, I know I'd be able to live off of veggies (carrot sticks, celery sticks, with lacto-free cheese spreads or peanut butter) and fruit juices/water throughout a day or weekend or I could prepare food the day before and bring it along in a pack.
> 
> I'm sure you know your diet well, but tbh, I usually travel with "me-safe" snacks and extra medication just in case. I bring my own cooler if need be, I'm sure my dobe or her littermates would be happy to guard my food lol! If you are both unable to attend shows consistently because of one thing or another to do with having a disability or being a carer, would you think this could be an indicator that maybe you're both not ready to be breeding? I know breeders that only sell locally, but a large number of breeders will sell nationwide, what happens if you urgently need to rush off to collect a dog you have bred? Just something to consider. I also bring my own folding chairs, special shoes, walking stick etc along to shows and just make sure you make your provisions well in advanced.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have everything in order and are really adept at coping with everything. I'm glad you didn't mean for it to be an arguement


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Ok then but why are you not giving useful and advice that was actually asked for is what i'd like to know!


This is useful advice I thought? & i'm not giving you the advice you asked for because your about 100 steps ahead of yourself! Talking about what to expect when you take your bitch to the stud dog when you haven't even shown her yet so you don't know if she'll be going to any stud dog! I think i'm going to be bowing out of this now, i've been nothing but polite from the word go and given you advice that I thought wasn't exactly bad just to have it thrown in my face :lol:. The piece of information that I gave you was something that, forgive me, if you had done enough research and met the right people you would already know. Like I said before, theres no need to rush into this, she's only 14 months old and you haven't even shown her yet so you don't know if she will even be bred from. Stop wishing her life away and just enjoy your dogs and showing them for the time being - once you've done that then start thinking about breeding. x


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> That's true there are a lot of mac donalds but i can't eat anything filling from there or anywhere else really, i mean if they let me bring me own food and cook it in there ovens but i doubt that.
> 
> Dos anyone even know about my allergies, they are: Glutain(Wheet, Rye, Barley, Oats), Lactose, Soya, Lemon, Mellon, Olive, Yeast.
> 
> I also have ME so that doesn't help at shows either not eating fulling or right stuff doesn't help so going to far out is not really an option if i am to be useful.


I've got Coeliac disease - and also can't eat dairy produce (you won't find too many olives, melons or lemons at shows  - it doesn't stop me - up until my dad's poor health and recent death - I am out showing up and down the country pretty much every weekend - including Scotland - which is easily a 30 hour round trip.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Well! seems my view is a little different to some!

When I got my pupster she had been kept as a show bitch, but when she came to me I have NO real intentions of showing her! but that said I did decide to try my hand, this was encouraged by a good friend of mine who shows her weimys and also breeds!

So off we trot to ringcraft and pick up what we can! enter a few shows, enter a few more, got placed in a few shows, hadto pull out of even more due to seasons ect!! and what did I learn ?? absolutely nuffing!

OK! we got placed in every show we entered, but we had remarks like

'Nice bitch let down by inexperienced handler'

Erm! so excuse me but who is the judge looking at then? We then went ahead with the testing - the idea (above my station and obviously way out of my league) to breed my own pup with my own kennel name) 

Did look at a few potential mates (well two to be precise), both were top dogs! and NEITHER refused us because our girl weren't top in the show ring! In fact they were BOTH very very keen!

But the truth of the matter is! showing ain't really my thing! maybe should have shown more commitment but in my opinion I already had the BEST bitch anyway so had nothing to prove to no-one!



Just one question though for all you 'breeders and show people
Do you EVER see a cracking dog of your breed (not in the showring) and think to yourself what a fine specimen it is? Or are we to believe that the only place to find a good example of the breed is in the showring! just curious! because somehow I just don't buy that one! This is not to be funny by the way! but some folk have little or no interest in showing!

and here she is! I'll defy anyone to find fault with her!


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Unfortunately, the handler does play a huge role in showing dogs. With some breeds, the handler needs to have a certain cambre to their step or they need to consistently keep the groomed coat in condition for the judge etc etc.

There's a certain way a handler should move with each breed, otherwise if it were possible to train the dog to show itself, I'm sure we all would! lol

I just don't think having been in the breed for around a year (owning) is long enough to be trying to breed or turn her bitch into a brood bitch. I just think the OP needs to slow down a bit and get out there and learn a bit more before deciding on everything.

Even 3-4 years into my breed and I'm still being told by some "reputable" people in the breed that certain dogs are the be all and end all, and when I research more and more, I then find out these dogs have extensive health issues or temperament problems etc. We never stop learning about our breeds, but I think showing commitment before producing puppies is very important.

EDIT: Regarding seeing nice specimens in the "real" world, yes, I do in one breed, but never in the other. Unfortunately, they usually do not have the "stuff" behind them.

One dog a friend of mine met that she enjoyed the look of was from a VERY BAD line in this country. This breeder is about as craptastic as the come in the breed. A really sad state that she got her hands on some good lines then started ruining dogs with crap lines, dilution, albinism etc.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Just one question though for all you 'breeders and show people
> 
> Do you EVER see a cracking dog of your breed (not in the showring) and think to yourself what a fine specimen it is? Or are we to believe that the only place to find a good example of the breed is in the showring! just curious! because somehow I just don't buy that one! This is not to be funny by the way! but some folk have little or no interest in showing!


Not at all - I Do (albeit not that often) see cracking Lab specimens outside the showring - but usually, when you dig a little deeper, they have show the breeding behind them.

I don't personally believe, and have clearly stated this, that the stud has to be a top show dog - and I've made my own views very clear to the OP.

My point about going to shows is the OP wants to show - so MY advice is go and look at the dogs at the shows - if you like what you see - look at their breeding - that means - not necessarily using the dog in front of you - but HIS sire.

I do show, but I also attended breed seminars and did a hands on assessment before breeding - you have to get to know your breed and as importantly, know what you like - sometimes people think they know what they like until they start looking -and then often their views DO change.


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## Fuzzbugs!x (Jan 18, 2010)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Well! seems my view is a little different to some!
> 
> When I got my pupster she had been kept as a show bitch, but when she came to me I have NO real intentions of showing her! but that said I did decide to try my hand, this was encouraged by a good friend of mine who shows her weimys and also breeds!
> 
> ...


A dog can be let down by an experienced handler - but not 20 times in a row. If it's a good dog, it will do well. No the show ring is not the only place to find a wonderful example of the breed, but normally any dogs that I see that I think wow what a cracking example have came from good breeders who show . Showing isn't everyones cup of tea but imo if you want to breed then showing goes hand in hand with it. She's a gorgeous dog, but as far as i've been told every dog has its faults, be them tiny. You can't really judge on that from a photo either. I'm not sure of their breed standard though. & i agree with you I always go home with the best dog there in my eyes - but not always conformation wise. x


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

casandra said:


> I just don't think having been in the breed for around a year (owning) is long enough to be trying to breed or turn her bitch into a brood bitch. I just think the OP needs to slow down a bit and get out there and learn a bit more before deciding on everything..


Does not being around a breed for years when your family/parents have owned them not count for anything then?

Sure would in my book.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Of course there are good examples in pet homes, never shown. 
A handler needs to get the best out the dog, with movement, standing ect - The judge may have felt you didnt get your dog to move to the best of her ability with you going to fast or slow, possibly not standing her correctly. we were all new handlers at one time or another. I got alot of help from people around the ring, but each dog I handle is so very different. I suppose you have to understand the dog and work together with it.

Of course some people have no interest in showing - but you know my feelings on people breeding with no aim for the pups, so wont get into that again - If people are to want pups from your dogs to show on from you need to get the dog out in the ring and seen in my opinion. I dont think there is anything better than showing your dogs to the world, and recieving good feed back, and encouraging comments. 

I could quite happily just handle mums and anyone elses dogs, and never actually breed myself - although I do aim to be come part of mums affix in time.

You dont need to make your dog up to get offers from good stud owners, with fabby studs - You just need them to believe your dog is a good example with something to offer and that the mating would be a good one to go ahead with. Your dog was placed every show you attended even though judges felt you let her down - that should tell you the judge feels she is worthy of a place over other dogs, and if you had handled better she may been placed higher. Judges can only give feed back from what they see good or bad - take both and work with it. Good and bad feed back from judges has helped me loads to see what I have to work on, and what I have got correct.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Of course some people have no interest in showing - but you know my feelings on people breeding with no aim for the pups, so wont get into that again


So do you never sell your dogs other than to people who want to show from them?

People like me wouldn't have a chance as we simply want a pet? :confused1:


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

Horse and Hound said:


> Does not being around a breed for years when your family/parents have owned them not count for anything then?
> 
> Sure would in my book.


Then where is the knowledge? I was raised around Italian food my whole life, but could I just run into the kitchen right now, get all of the ingredients for my Great-Grandmother's secret lasagna recipe and JUST MAKE IT WORK?

No. Well, probably after LOADS of trial and error, but that IS NOT THE WAY BREEDING ANIMALS SHOULD WORK. We're talking innocent life here!!

The amount of knowledge the OP/DH has shown in their own breed is NOT what I would expect of someone breeding dogs for the show ring.


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

Why the hell is the Manchester Dog Show in Stafford?!?!?

Manchester Dog Show WTF!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> So do you never sell your dogs other than to people who want to show from them?
> 
> People like me wouldn't have a chance as we simply want a pet? :confused1:


Yes they go to pet homes, but the litter would NOT have been bred to supply a pet market.. There is a difference for me - mum breeds to keep a pup or two to show, and will have a mixture of people waiting for pups, show, agility and pet homes.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> Why the hell is the Manchester Dog Show in Stafford?!?!?
> 
> Manchester Dog Show WTF!


Held by manchester canine society. The Ladies Kennel Association held their show in B'ham, should they have held it in a Lady's Kennel instead?


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I could quite happily just handle mums and anyone elses dogs, and never actually breed myself - although I do aim to be come part of mums affix in time.
> 
> .


well you'd best get yourself down here then sharpish DD

If a muppet like me can get placed in every show we enter then we'll be taking top prize at crufts with you on board!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

SeriouslY! I honestly don't think I could do it again it I tried! And I DID have some great help from other breeders!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

casandra said:


> Then where is the knowledge? I was raised around Italian food my whole life, but could I just run into the kitchen right now, get all of the ingredients for my Great-Grandmother's secret lasagna recipe and JUST MAKE IT WORK?
> 
> No. Well, probably after LOADS of trial and error, but that IS NOT THE WAY BREEDING ANIMALS SHOULD WORK. We're talking innocent life here!!
> 
> The amount of knowledge the OP/DH has shown in their own breed is NOT what I would expect of someone breeding dogs for the show ring.


I have only ever been around CCs because of my mum, and me growing up with them and taking an interest in her breeding, and handling her dogs. I would not say I am yet an expert on the breed but I feel I know and have learnt a fair bit about them.


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> well you'd best get yourself down here then sharpish DD
> 
> If a muppet like me can get placed in every show we enter then we'll be taking top prize at crufts with you on board!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> SeriouslY! I honestly don't think I could do it again it I tried! And I DID have some great help from other breeders!


I told you over a year ago I would be more than happy to ever help out with you at a show.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

casandra said:


> Then where is the knowledge?


I can't see where she has shown a bad knowledge of her breed to be frank. :confused1:

Just not a knowlege of showing. I owned a horse for nearly 4 years before I went to a show for the first time, didn't mean i know jack **** about horses though.

Same with owning a terrier. "oh, you need experience before you get one". Well, how about growing up around them at yards for ages. Never owned one before in my life, but we do just fine. He's not yappy and certainly doesn't bite.

SL does have a bloody good knowledge of her breed, she bamboozles me when she talks about them. What she perhaps is lacking is EXPERIENCE in showing, which she has already said she is going to make up for.

And frankly, I don't see how someone who has never bred before can offer her the answer to her questions? Just a thought...



Devil-Dogz said:


> I have only ever been around CCs because of my mum, and me growing up with them and taking an interest in her breeding, and handling her dogs. I would not say I am yet an expert on the breed but I feel I know and have learnt a fair bit about them.


Exactly my point. You'd know a fair bit about them. What you don't have is the actual, physical experience.

You can swat up on a breed all you want, learn about showing all you want. Until you actually, physically experience it, it means jack. Living with a breed of dog would outweigh any amount of so called knowledge anyone has on them.


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## SC7639 (Nov 23, 2010)

casandra said:


> Held by manchester canine society. The Ladies Kennel Association held their show in B'ham, should they have held it in a Lady's Kennel instead?


no in manchester you'd think calling it Manchester Dog Show Society YKC Qualifying Weekend you'd assume it's in manchester. As people on here made it out like it was


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes they go to pet homes, but the litter would NOT have been bred to supply a pet market.. There is a difference for me - mum breeds to *keep a pup or two to show*, and will have a mixture of people waiting for pups, show, agility and pet homes.


Bloody hell, you must have a fair few!


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

SC7639 said:


> Why the hell is the Manchester Dog Show in Stafford?!?!?
> 
> Manchester Dog Show WTF!


Because some show societies may not have suitable venues closer to them - also - people attending Championship shows come from across the UK (and sometimes the globe)

Stafford is relatively easy to access pretty much wherever you are in the UK and is a superb show venue with ample parking and plenty of space for dogs, benching and traders alike.

The Stafford county ground hosts shows from soceties across the Midlands and as you've discovered, show societies up as far as Manchester.


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## casandra (Aug 1, 2008)

SC7639 said:


> no in manchester you'd think calling it Manchester Dog Show Society YKC Qualifying Weekend you'd assume it's in manchester. As people on here made it out like it was


My husband said exactly the same thing...must be a spouse thing. I had to explain several times that it was Manchester Dog Show Society hosting the show. Not necessarily where it was being held!


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Exactly my point. You'd know a fair bit about them. What you don't have is the actual, physical experience.
> 
> You can swat up on a breed all you want, learn about showing all you want. Until you actually, physically experience it, it means jack. Living with a breed of dog would outweigh any amount of so called knowledge anyone has on them.


Yes I see what your saying, and mostly agree. I feel lucky that I have actually been allowed hands on in the breed to, and not only with our own dogs and litters


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Bloody hell, you must have a fair few!


LOL - Yes. Most are rescues mind  we havent had many many litters over the years. Infact the first litters mum ever had were from bitches that had been dumped in rescue before giving birth - mum would take some of them in and whelp them. (not CCs - This was before she got into CC's).


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Yes I see what your saying, and mostly agree. I feel lucky that I have actually been allowed hands on in the breed to, and not only with our own dogs and litters


And that hands on experience for me would outweigh any stupid seminars or research.

Fantastic example of this is the woman I loaned my horse off. She started off with a shetland pony and literally learnt everything she did along the way. 30 years down the line and she is very, very well known in our area and thousands of people flood to her for advice, help in breeding, transport to shows and mentoring/ private teaching.

Does she have any qualificatins? Does she hellers like. She says she'd rather eat her own arm than sit any BSJA quals. :thumbup:


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I told you over a year ago I would be more than happy to ever help out with you at a show.


W'ed have to go back to basics DD she's more intereted in having her nose to the deck now:scared::scared:


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> W'ed have to go back to basics DD she's more intereted in having her nose to the deck now:scared::scared:


Nice bit of something really smelly and tasty and we will be on our way


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> I told you over a year ago I would be more than happy to ever help out with you at a show.


Do you do VERY NAUGHTY Black Labradors as well


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> Do you do VERY NAUGHTY Black Labradors as well


hehe defo - I love a challange, experience for me to


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> hehe defo - I love a challange, experience for me to


You could regret saying that - she's already on threat of an Asbo for being naughty  Where / When is your next show hehe  (and yes, it's the girly in my avatar )


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> You could regret saying that - she's already on threat of an Asbo for being naughty  Where / When is your next show hehe  (and yes, it's the girly in my avatar )


aww my fav  I wont regret :lol: Hopefully when mum gets in I can persuade her to enter manchester if entries are extended to tonight  Other than that and UK Toy im not sure - every show if I could


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> aww my fav  I wont regret :lol: Hopefully when mum gets in I can persuade her to enter manchester if entries are extended to tonight  Other than that and UK Toy im not sure - every show if I could


I thought Manchester closed yesterday - I missed it (although suspect we would be different days at CH shows  )


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

swarthy said:


> I thought Manchester closed yesterday - I missed it (although suspect we would be different days at CH shows  )


someone on here said they think it was extended till midnight tonight, I cant check as am on my mobile  I missed it to and wanted to take Dizni for her first show. Yes we would be, which is always a pain


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Devil-Dogz said:


> someone on here said they think it was extended till midnight tonight, I cant check as am on my mobile  I missed it to and wanted to take Dizni for her first show. Yes we would be, which is always a pain


I checked dog.biz after seeing your post - definitely not available on there to enter online  I was poised to enter Monday night and then left it until the morning - and then missed it


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

ohh    I just totally forgot until someone asked if I had entered as Diznis sister is entered! arrgh


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## Souris (May 24, 2010)

While it's on the topic of showing, hope you don't mind if I ask a question! 

Can you go along as a spectator to a championship show? The Scottish sheltie society has it's championship show in Feb: I wanted to go along if nothing else but to get a feel for what showing is like and to just watch really. I'm sure this is going to sound really silly- but is that possible, or is it frowned upon?

Also, would it be at all possible to take Pixel? Not to enter mind but I'm still umm'ing and ahh'ing over whether I want to try and show Pixel, that's all. I've just not been to a show before, and I don't want to turn up in Feb to be glared at as treating the show as a day out, as oppose to showing our pup.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Souris said:


> While it's on the topic of showing, hope you don't mind if I ask a question!
> 
> Can you go along as a spectator to a championship show? The Scottish sheltie society has it's championship show in Feb: I wanted to go along if nothing else but to get a feel for what showing is like and to just watch really. I'm sure this is going to sound really silly- but is that possible, or is it frowned upon?
> 
> Also, would it be at all possible to take Pixel? Not to enter mind but I'm still umm'ing and ahh'ing over whether I want to try and show Pixel, that's all. I've just not been to a show before, and I don't want to turn up in Feb to be glared at as treating the show as a day out, as oppose to showing our pup.


It's not frowned upon at all - BUT - you won't be able to take your dog with you. There are a few Ch shows that charge a few pounds entry for spectators, but the majority of them are free.

Open shows you can also go along and watch - and some shows have what they call NFC (Not for Competition) entries - where you can take your dog along with you - you have to enter by the show closing date - the charge is usually around £1.

You can also enter Championship shows NFC - BUT - your dog won't be usually be allowed into the showground - but will be taken care of in a tent / building outside the actual show area.

Dogs should be over 6 months for NFC entries - although some show societies do allow pups of 4 to 6 months in for training - sometimes it is written on their schedules - other times, you may need to ring the secretary.

A good place for Scottish open show details is :: PrintMatters :: Our Only Limit Is Your Imagination!

Other websites which are good for Champ and / or Open shows are

FOSSE DATA: Providing Computerised Show Services to the World of Dogs
Higham Press Ltd - Championship Dog Show Results and Information

And Prodogs lists pretty much all the shows often with secretary contact details

Pro-dogs


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## Souris (May 24, 2010)

Thanks Swarthy!

I think we'll pop along in Feb then to see what we think and find someone to sit Pixel for the day. 

If we do want to try to show our pup at shows at a later date- is it the same as NFC dogs- they can be shown from six months up?


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes go along most folk at shows will chat, just not as they are heading for the ring  
Yes dogs have to be 6months old at first date of show


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Right anyway,
> 
> The 2nd stud I cant use until I get the clear from Alaska's DNA test in Feb as he is a carrier.


why would you think to use a stud whos a known carrier of anything, or am i being a bit pureist here but id have thought best left alone


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## Devil-Dogz (Oct 4, 2009)

mitch4 said:


> why would you think to use a stud whos a known carrier of anything, or am i being a bit pureist here but id have thought best left alone


Thats the attitude from most people, but carriers have just as much to offer a breed as the clear dogs do. I would just expect the breeders to test all puppies at 4weeks, so potential owners were aware of the dogs status before purchase. Carriers are not a massive deal, breeders and health experts are still advising breeders to consider carriers and affected dogs - (but only put to clears). Although I dont think I would use an affected dog.


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Devil-Dogz said:


> Thats the attitude from most people, but carriers have just as much to offer a breed as the clear dogs do. I would just expect the breeders to test all puppies at 4weeks, so potential owners were aware of the dogs status before purchase. Carriers are not a massive deal, breeders and health experts are still advising breeders to consider carriers and affected dogs - (but only put to clears). Although I dont think I would use an affected dog.


I think knowing a dog/Stud was a carrier would worry me a little too much to go ahead with any mateing, although i do understand put to a clear girl useing such stud would be ok but then youd have to consider future pups being carriers and people not being as careful as say you or I.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

mitch4 said:


> Iand people not being as careful as say you or I.


Can't you stipulate that they are not allowed to breed from dogs/bitches you sell w/o permission?


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## claire & the gang (Nov 18, 2010)

It would be possible to endorse the pedigree not for breeding unless the pups themselves have been tested. At which point the breeder could release the endorsement


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

I know its the norm that the bitch goes to the stud... but i picked up the stud and he stayed at mine for 3 days


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2010)

archielee said:


> I know its the norm that the bitch goes to the stud... but i picked up the stud and he stayed at mine for 3 days


Hope he weren't heavy and that you didn't have to carry him far:scared:


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Hope he weren't heavy and that you didn't have to carry him far:scared:


:lol::lol: i never word things right do i ... 3 days would be a long time lol


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Can't you stipulate that they are not allowed to breed from dogs/bitches you sell w/o permission?


You can do but you'd then need to rely on the honesty and integrity of all your puppy buyers as some may go on to have an unregistered litter with the dog and youd never know, it sadly does happen that endorsed dogs are bred from and sold unregistered

But endorseing would definitely be the thing to do


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