# Muzzling Maiden Bitches



## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

I must say Ive never had such a problem, the only 2 litters ive ever bred (chihuahuas)the girls were more than happy to ststand for the boy as maidens (wee hussies lol!)

Anyway, ive read in a few books if a bitch puts up a fight or is too aggressive towards the male she should be muzzled :confused1: Granted one of the books also discussed frontal labotomies as a way forward in reducing aggression! :scared:

I was just curious as to others opinions and experiences??


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## Bellasmaid (Aug 18, 2010)

Personally I wouldnt breed from her if she had to be muzzled.

Bella was more than happy for the chosen stud to mount her. I had to hold her collar cos she kept trying to get away from him during the tie but not once did she show any aggression towards him.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

Well not being a breeder cannot really be the one to answer this I guess!
BUT!! I would certainly not be happy to muzzle my bitch as I as sure this would be stressful for them!

That said we did go and meet the stud/and owner to see if the dogs got on! They did!

Can appreciate that stud owners do not want their dogs bitten though! but should this not be down to whether the bitch is suitable for breeding in the first place???

DT

Anyone else!! would be more then interested in your views!


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

I would not muzzle my bitch and if she got aggressive i would not breed from her


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I feel a bit cheeky posting, with me not being a breeder and all, but yes, I have read accounts of a bitch having to be muzzled, or even just held, as they become a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde character. In fact I can think of at least one such person off the top of my head who has such a bitch. 

Let's face it, the act of mating with a bitch, particularly a maiden bitch, and usually an unknown dog isn't always going to be a case of scatter cushions, a Barry White cd, and a glass of dry white wine, or the doggy equivalent. She may well react absolutely out of character because everything that is happening is out of character. 

So I don't think it's easy to judge whether or not it is right or wrong, unless you're involved with THAT particular mating, have met the bitch and the dog, and can say, she is honestly a soft muppet, just not when a dog tries it on, even when bang in season. 

If you have a bitch that reacts like this, after bringing her on for several years, possibly putting a lot of time into campaigning her, would you just give up without trying to coerce amating? Would I allow it to happen with my bitch? I dunno, I'd just have to see what I thought of the situation in front of me, if I ever get to it.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Not a breeder but clearly if a bitch doesn't want to be mounted she doesn't want to be mounted!

Must be very stressful for bitches who are being muzzled and bred from


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

my bitch was muzzled by the stud dog owner as a precaution, can't say i was happy about it but once they'd tied it was removed. it didn't stress her out but i suppose it could for some.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sequeena said:


> Not a breeder but clearly if a bitch doesn't want to be mounted she doesn't want to be mounted!
> 
> Must be very stressful for bitches who are being muzzled and bred from


No, not really, and there are probably a lot of nice bitches that may not be all flirty, but a bit iffy at being mated. Do you lose all those nice bitches from the gene pool of a breed for want of restraining them to breed?

What I am completely against, are truly aggressive dogs being used for breeding, which is a huge difference from a bitch that is normally a happy waggy creature, that happens to object to this new strange thing happening. The vast majority of responsible breeders do so under what would be strange circumstances, they use a stud dog that matches their bitch for a start, not the boy down the road that goes on a daily walk with them.

So I can imagine a few bitches might well be a bit funny, at least initially, being taken to a completely strange situation, meeting a strange dog for the first time. I'd imagine there are even more where raging hormones play a part and they are much easier to handle, but that doesn't for me, say the ones who react to it aren't worth trying to breed from.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Let's face it, the act of mating with a bitch, particularly a maiden bitch, and usually an unknown dog isn't always going to be a case of scatter cushions, a Barry White cd, and a glass of dry white wine, or the doggy equivalent. She may well react absolutely out of character because everything that is happening is out of character.
> 
> So I don't think it's easy to judge whether or not it is right or wrong, unless you're involved with THAT particular mating, have met the bitch and the dog, and can say, she is honestly a soft muppet, just not when a dog tries it on, even when bang in season.


I have to agree - I don't think you can count bitch aggression on a suitor as typical of aggression in a bitch.

A first time mating can be quite stressful for a maiden bitch - and while no - it isn't hearts and flowers - some dogs are a little more 'gentlemanly' than others.

Quite frankly, taking some bitches for mating isn't for the fainthearted - I've been lucky in that none of mine have been aggressive (one has tried to get themselves lifted up by my neck though ).

Having said all that - if I was in a situation where the bitch really was that reactive she needed to be muzzled - I would probably walk away and leave it for another season and maybe even another dog - muzzling a bitch when they are already under pressure is cruel


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Am I alone in being horrified that breeders will force a bitch to be mated against her will? 
Anything for money eh?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Am I alone in being horrified that breeders will force a bitch to be mated against her will?
> Anything for money eh?


i beg your pardon. nowt about forcing its about protecting a dog , some male studs especially maiden ones are a tad clumsy when they first mount a bitch. Its got f all to do with money !!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

This is why I could never breed. I could never go through with a mating if my bitch was being iffy round a male, no matter how good her genes are.

Anyway, I obviously don't know enough about breeding practices so it's only my opinion.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

sequeena said:


> This is why I could never breed. I could never go through with a mating if my bitch was being iffy round a male, no matter how good her genes are.
> 
> Anyway, I obviously don't know enough about breeding practices so it's only my opinion.


 what do you mean by iffy? most bitches are tarts , well mine are lol


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

you would be very surprised at the absolute demon which comes out from some very placid little dogs when the dog attempts to mate them. some people have even cried in horror at the dramatic change in their cute little baby girl, they can be absolute nightmares but fine straight after


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

dexter said:


> what do you mean by iffy? most bitches are tarts , well mine are lol


If only life were so straight forward.

It's not about forcing them - sometimes (often in fact) a bitch will stand quite happily for a dog, as my eldest did - but she panicked horribly on the tie (by which time it is too late to stop) - and if you are not holding them - you have a very serious problem in the making - which could result in the death of both dogs - unfortunately, until this happens - you don't know it will happen.

I was black and blue from holding her during her first mating - subsequent mating and on 2nd litter - I didn't encounter any problems - and now, she cries outside my boy's bedroom at night for EVERY night throughout her season.

People assume that being animals - dogs know instinctively what to do - but domestication has, for a lot of them, removed some of those instincts - and they need a helping hand (dog and / or bitch).

======================

The first mating I ever assisted with was when I was working in a kennels - the bitch bit a lovely chunk into my finger before the mating, but was absolutely fine during the actual event.

=======================

If a bitch really was that anti about mating from the off, then as per my comments on my last post, I would probably leave it and - time permitting - would try again on a subsequent season.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

dexter said:


> what do you mean by iffy? most bitches are tarts , well mine are lol


I understand well, Sky is a tart in season... but Luna isn't interested at all thank god (there is an unneutered male in the house next to me).


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

swarthy said:


> If only life were so straight forward.
> 
> It's not about forcing them - sometimes (often in fact) a bitch will stand quite happily for a dog, as my eldest did - but she panicked horribly on the tie (by which time it is too late to stop) - and if you are not holding them - you have a very serious problem in the making - which could result in the death of both dogs - unfortunately, until this happens - you don't know it will happen.
> 
> ...


This is a really good post :thumbup:

When one of our girls was mated, she was tart of the season and stood really nicely but when the tie happened she panicked and like swarthy if we had not at that point held her shed have ruptured something its protecting both the bitch and the stud, our girl actually after a few minutes did seem to appreciate me holding her and sootheing her, she was tied for 25 mins so there is no way theyd have survived that without injury if not held

before this shed had the choice of 2 studs, she clearly did not like the first kept snapping at him as he tried to mount her, we let him have a few mins with her but it was clear she wasnt having any of him, she was introduced to the second stud and waheyyy different story but it did end as said above even with this dog who she really did want, so holding a dog on at this point is actually for safety reasons and the love of your dogs, not money


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

sequeena said:


> I understand well, Sky is a tart in season... but Luna isn't interested at all thank god (there is an unneutered male in the house next to me).


all mine have been tarts lol.................


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Am I alone in being horrified that breeders will force a bitch to be mated against her will?
> Anything for money eh?


No bitch chooses to have a litter, they don't fill out a list of preferences (tall dark and handsome, blonde please, muscular, meaty, a thinking type please, etc, etc) and when you take them for mating, either their hormones will take over and they are mated without any problems, or they are coerced when they aren't standing there with a 'take me' expression on their face. If a bitch is too distressed, then I don't think anyone I know would force the issue, but if all it is is a bit of a reaction to being taken to a strange place, and strange *things* happening, then I know plenty who would hold or restrain a bitch, some who'd either muzzle or wrap a lead at the very least around the muzzle to prevent any injuries occurring. All matings done by responsible breeders are done under 'false' circumstances, or would you just prefer that bitches were turfed out to find their own ideal mate when they're in season? 

Not even going to resond to the question of money, except to say nobody that I know who breeds responsibly has made themselves rich in doing so.


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## Harvers (Sep 23, 2009)

My bitch is due in season and is going to a stud who is quite valuable so the stud owner has said as she is a maiden that a muzzle might be needed as when they tie she might panic and it is for our safety as well as the stud dog which I can appreciate as they are big dogs (bullmastiff) and I don't fancy being stuck at the head end if she did panic, but if when we go and she was against being mated ie wasn't having any of it I would leave it and not force her to be mated.


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## vizzy24 (Aug 31, 2008)

I was advised when I took Rosie up that she has never had a vizsla bitch that has NOT had to be muzzled. I am aware that tensions can rise during mating so I wouldn't have been massively surprised if we needed to muzzle her. Rosie has a fab temperament but you cannot judge her normal day to day disposition on a few fractious minutes during mating. Rosie did not need to be muzzled she being a tart was fairly happy to oblige. I do understand that it is easy for people to equate human feelings of being in love and close to a partner to dogs going to stud to get pregnant. Dogs dont sit down and discuss they are in love and want to have a baby. Dogs, don't mate for emotional reason ( i don't mean to sound harsh) they mate to reproduce. Simple fact is they don't love each other they are just interested in ensuring their genes are passed on. Rosie seemed happy to be around her stud dog and excited the next time went up there. I still dont think there was any emotional issue though, her body was telling her she needed to mate.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

It's not the holding a bitch/dog when they're mating or even muzzling a bitch who is willing I object to (because obviously accidents happen, don't want a fight or to be bitten do you?). I'm against bitches mating when they don't want to be mated.

Get what I mean? No? :lol:


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

I`ve had unspayed bitches. When they are ready they choose who they want to mate with and you have a devil of a job to prevent it. I had to rugby-tackle a GSD bitch who was trying to jump out of a window to get to a passing poodle once. But the only time I did actually try to mate a bitch she made it perfectly clear she didn`t want to. So we didn`t. 
To my mind it`s abuse for profit. 
And don`t give me that `dogs are different` bit. A bitch knows perfectly well which dog she likes and doesn`t like. But you want her to mate with the one you chose - for whatever reason.


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## Liteskye (Aug 10, 2009)

Starlite said:


> I must say Ive never had such a problem, the only 2 litters ive ever bred (chihuahuas)the girls were more than happy to ststand for the boy as maidens (wee hussies lol!)
> 
> Anyway, ive read in a few books if a bitch puts up a fight or is too aggressive towards the male she should be muzzled :confused1: Granted one of the books also discussed frontal labotomies as a way forward in reducing aggression! :scared:
> 
> I was just curious as to others opinions and experiences??


If you have to muzzle a bitch to be mated then in my opinion she shouldn't be mated with at all.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I think this is one of those threads where there are going to be two points of view and that's it, no matter how many posts are made to try and explain one side or the other.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think this is one of those threads where there are going to be two points of view and that's it, no matter how many posts are made to try and explain one side or the other.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> :yesnod::yesnod:


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I can understand in some situations but when things like these are used;

























 I thik that's just plain out disgusting.


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

Rape stands!


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

Yeah I saw them confiscate those things on an animal cops episode. 'Rape racks' is what they called them. Obviously used in the fighting fraternity.


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## kazschow (Oct 23, 2008)

jenniferx said:


> Yeah I saw them confiscate those things on an animal cops episode. 'Rape racks' is what they called them. Obviously used in the fighting fraternity.


 Also used extensively with Bulldogs, as it's the only way many can copulate!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I've never even seen that sort of contraption, sometimes I really am glad I don't have a tele. 

I think there's a whole world away from restraining or even muzzling a bitch who reacts out of character when presented with a mating situation, or being prepared to because you know it's a strange situation for her and as a maiden bitch you don't know how she's going to react, after all, this is the first time she's ever been put in this situation, to going in with all intentions of restraining by muzzling and shackling because you know your dog is aggressive anyway.


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## Tanya1989 (Dec 4, 2009)

The irony is.... that would make it more difficult to mate. The position of the back bar is in such a place where the vaginal tract will be clamped shut if the bitch tries to sit down against the bar (which obviously she would or she wouldn't need a contraption), and TBH I'm astounded that they achieved a mating at all, never mind a tie.


I think its a degree of everyone is right and everyone is wrong when it comes to choosing to muzzle a bitch or not. Personally as a stud handler I have been on the receiving end of a bitches mouth who was premated (perfect day) stood and flagged, braced herself whilst he mounted.... then came the tie and she became devil dog. She panicked and went for the stud... me being me put my arm in between her 42 teeth and the stud.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

That contraption is disgusting and if my bitch had to be placed in that thing i'd call it all off! 

When fostering Staffs a Staffie judge (Harry Coble) once told me that during a mating he once attended the owner held the bitch so tightly by her collar, as she was in attack mode, that he actually strangled her 

My good God - wouldn't you just like to strangle him? I mean surely a muzzle would have been a better option!


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

kazschow said:


> Also used extensively with Bulldogs, as it's the only way many can copulate!


ive seen these in the UK too.

If you type in_ bulldog mating stand_ into Google and look at the 1st result you'll see

I couldnt do that to my dog, OH was shaking his head in disbelief when I showed him!

I think with large dog you should have at least 2 people ready to grab collar just in case, but as far as I can see, when a bitch is ready she goes all out to make sure she gets mated


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## archielee (Jan 30, 2009)

Malmum said:


> That contraption is disgusting and if my bitch had to be placed in that thing i'd call it all off!
> 
> When fostering Staffs a Staffie judge (Harry Coble) once told me that during a mating he once attended the owner held the bitch so tightly by her collar, as she was in attack mode, that he actually strangled her
> 
> My good God - wouldn't you just like to strangle him? I mean surely a muzzle would have been a better option!


OMG poor dog


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

SpringerHusky said:


> I can understand in some situations but when things like these are used;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OMG! thats awful!


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

That is barbaric! Cannot believe it is legal. Makes one ashamed to be human sometimes. How can someone design a contraption which in essence condemns a female dog to rape?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

omg, just googled "mating cradle" as well and this seems to be a common way of mating in the bulldog breed


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## mitch4 (Oct 31, 2009)

Oh dear god that contraption is awful


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## Liteskye (Aug 10, 2009)

Some guy phoned me a while back saying that he wanted to mate his bitch to his dog, but she kept attacking his dog. Well after I found out that he got these dogs just to purely breed from and after my lecture on breeding and that he doesn't do absolutely nothing with his dogs, but just wants to breed for the money I told him I wouldn't even let my own dog near his bitch if this is what she's like as I have to think of my own dog getting hurt in this, and many a stud dog owner would think along these lines.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

jeezus ive just noticed that they are 2 different bitches in those pics


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I think its a degree of everyone is right and everyone is wrong when it comes to choosing to muzzle a bitch or not. Personally as a stud handler I have been on the receiving end of a bitches mouth who was premated (perfect day) stood and flagged, braced herself whilst he mounted.... then came the tie and she became devil dog. She panicked and went for the stud... me being me put my arm in between her 42 teeth and the stud


.

I agree - breeding from a dog with a poor temperament is unacceptable, but mating is a different situation - even the most placid bitch can be worried in such a situation particularly a maiden, and you never know how they will react. I teach my dogs to accept a muzzle (even though I've never had to use one), simply because one day their may be a situation where they have to wear one (another example could be at the vets where the dog is in extreme pain, has to be examined and the vet is at risk of the dog reacting), that way, if they ever do have to wear one they will not find it distressing in addition to the situation they find themselves in.


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## MarKalAm (Sep 6, 2008)

Oh my God, that thing is terrible!!


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