# Problems with re-homed Patterdale Terrier Cross



## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

As mentioned in the Introductions section, my partner and I re-homed a 4 year old male Patterdale Terrier Cross at Christmas. He was castrated two weeks ago but we're still having behavioural problems with him. In summary they are....

1. Pulling on the lead when he walks

2. Barking at other dogs, cats and people when he walks

3. Getting very jealous when we go to cuddle or kiss - he will 'lunge' at me if I attempt anything

4. Barking when the doorbell goes, jumping up at visitors and generally 'misbehaving'

He has 'nicked' two people, not enough to cut the skin but enough to worry us. The previous owner said he was good as gold and didn't mind being left alone all day. This isn't the case and we've already had a note through the door from a neighbour complaining he barks all day.

Any help/advice will be gratefully received. Obviously we don't want to give him up and he's cute around 80% of the time but his behaviour has to change for us to have a happier and calmer household.


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

Neutering isn't going to cure those problems. Have you thought about attending a training class with him where a trainer can help you.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

owns the beast said:


> ...my partner & I re-homed a 4-YO male Patterdale Terrier-X at Christmas. He was castrated two weeks ago
> but we're still having behavioural problems with him. In summary they are....
> 
> 1. Pulling on the lead [during] walks
> ...


There are a number of problem-behaviors that desex helps, most of them related directly to male-specific
behaviors that have to do with breeding: Leg-lifting to mark [especially indoors or inappropriately, such as
marking a person's leg when the intact-M sees another dog], roaming to find bitches or fight other Ms, posturing
to challenge other Ms [up on toes, chest out, tail up & rigid, hard stare], & others, are all reduced by desex
markedly; one study found that over 90% of marking-problems ceased after the dog was desexed.

However, pulling on leash has nothing to do with male-specific behaviors, & desex won't help that.
Desex helps generally to reduce aggro across the board, & also helps reduce the reaction / calm the convo
between the now-desexed M & other dogs that he encounters. He ACTS less 'male', they RE-act less intensely.

It won't help with home-alone issues, either, unfortunately, nor with barking or jumping-up.
That DOESN't mean neutering was a waste of time; far from it, desexed male dogs get into a lot less trouble,
are more readily accepted by other dogs, scuffle & snark less, & overall are simply easier to live with.

I'll be back with tips for improving his behavior... :yesnod:


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## Debzdogs (Jan 30, 2012)

[QUOTE The previous owner said he was good as gold and *didn't mind being** left alone all day.* This isn't the case and we've already had a note through the door from a neighbour complaining he barks all day.

[/QUOTE]

This certainly won't have helped with some of his issues !. I have a Patterdale and can understand some of you points ie the jumping and barking. If he was left to his own devices all day previously then the misbehaving has prob stemmed from him being bored on his own and having to find stuff to occupy himself. 
How much exercise does he get as i know if i can't for any reason take mine out then he's a little bugger for the rest of the day. Stuffed kongs i find very useful to keep him occupied (especially if its frozen). The more occupied and tired you can keep him the better and he will behave better .


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## Debzdogs (Jan 30, 2012)

Also, another thing i am interested in and this comes from personal experience. What food is he on ?. This can and does make a difference 
I changed mines food to James Wellbeloved and, trying Wainwrights at the moment and this definately made a difference to his behaviour. Obviously he was bouncing of the walls before due to all the additives in the foods :mad5:.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

No dog will change his behaviour all by himself. You`ll have to make it more rewarding for him to behave as you want. 
For instance - the jumping up: 
teach him a Sit with a food treat. 
Then when he charges towards you with the obvious intention of leaping into your arms, hold out the food treat and ask for a sit. Voila! Behaviour altered! Persistence is key here btw. 
With over excitement with visitors - get a safety gate and separate him from your visitors. They really haven`t come to see the dog after all. 
A good book is The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson which covers behaviour and training.


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

Thank you all for responses. Obviously there is no 'quick fix' and even if he WAS good for his previous owner doesn't mean he will be for us!!!

I hadn't considered the food aspect but that does make sense. We can certainly try him on something else.

With regards to exercise, when we first had him I was taking him on lots of long walks but now it's such hard work we're doing short walks round the block. He does get to play ball inside and this tires him slightly.

My partner was initially going home at lunchtime to see him but that seemed to make him even worse.

Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll definately look into that :thumbup1:


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Patterdales need a lot of exercise and mental stimulation, short walks around the block won't be nearly enough, an adult would need at least 1.5 hours a day, ideally 2 if he'd being left.

He will also need lots of mental stimulation, terriers are feisty and patterdales are the terrier of the terrier world. You could use his food for training him, or use it to fill food dispensing toys like kongs.

Here's a quick idea of a daily routine you could do

up, 45 minute walk with some training using food, play with ball

10 minute training session using food

Breakfast

Quick toilet trip

Left with kong

Visit at lunch, 10 minute training with food, 10-20 minute play with ball

Left with chew/ food dispensing toy

Return home, 45 minute walk, play with ball

Dinner

Then you can spend the evening as you want. Terriers of all breeds need a lot of mental stimulation, if he loves the ball take it out on walks with you, use his meals for training(don't have to use it all, just 5/10 pieces per session), use food toys etc. If you have something like an agility class or training class nearby try him there.

Right the issues

Pulling - have you tried headcollar/harness? There are various methods to stop pulling, the best one i've found is to stop dead when they pull and wait for them to come back, you can start by tempting him back with food and some sort of cue (maybe something like back) then use it when he pulls.

Barking - Start by sitting somewhere busy, like a park/high street etc and a pocket full of food, whenever he's quiet and calm give him some food and praise, if he gets stressed and starts barking distract him with the food, get him to sit and when he's calm and quiet again give him food and praise  Build it from sitting somewhere to standing to moving about.

Jealousy - Again, use the food or ball, start with you and your OH sirring beside each other, if he's calm give him the ball or food. Again build it up to kiss/cuddle and when he's calm reward him.

Barking - Get your OH to stand outside and ring the doorbell, use ball/food to distract your dog, maybe teach him to run to his bed when the doorbell goes. As others have said use baby gates to stop him from being able to jump on visitors until he's more used to staying calm, then you can progress to bringing him in onlead to meet people calmly.

Separation anxiety is a tricky one, if you were to follow the routine i put further up he would certainly be more tired so less likely to be bothered, when you are at home start by not allowing him to follow you around the house, leave him where he goes when you go to work with a few treats and build up the time he's left, never return to him until he's quiet.

Hopefully some of this helps


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## Debzdogs (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't mean to offend anyone but two things i have noticed in your reply.

1) You *were* taking the dog on long walks but now only short ones.
2 ) Your husband *was* coming home at lunchtime but now doesn't ?.

So if i read it right, the dog gets less exercise and is left for longer ??.

If you could clarify these points and its just the way you've written, i do apologise


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Have you had a dog before?

If he was so good in his last home, why was he given up?

Patterdales are basically working dogs; people keeping them as pets is comparatively recent. They need a lot more exercise than walks round the block, and a lot more stimulation and training. They can be aggressive with other dogs, particularly the males.

It's a breed I'd not touch with a barge pole. They may look cute, but the one's I've come across are much harder work than collies.


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## Debzdogs (Jan 30, 2012)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion i suppose 

Most breeds were originally working dogs of some description !. Keeping a Patterdale as a pet is no different to a Collie or German Shepherd !

Any dog needs exercise and stimulation and, any dog can be agressive so its a bit of a poor picture you are painting of the breed 

They are no more hard work than any other breed if brought up and trained well 

Sorry but i didn't catch how many Patterdales you said you'd owned ?


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Patterdales are harder work work than most dogs, they are the terrors of the terrier world, everything terriers are known for you multiply by at least 3, I've know a working patterdale who has actively broken into a kennel just to kill other patterdales, all dogs he knew and had worked around.

Patterdales are notorious for being dog aggressive, and extremely prey driven. It might be a bad picture but it's an honest one, patterdales are one of a few breeds I would never keep due to it's nature. Obviously they can be kept as pets but they need more exercise, stimulation and socialisation than a lot of other breeds and certainly any other terrier.


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

owns the beast said:


> As mentioned in the Introductions section, my partner and I re-homed a 4 year old male Patterdale Terrier Cross at Christmas. He was castrated two weeks ago but we're still having behavioural problems with him. In summary they are....
> 
> 1. Pulling on the lead when he walks
> 
> ...


I would find a good behavioural trainer who is experienced with terriers and their ways and stop asking for help on a forum. Moving house can make a dog who is perfectly happy to be left alone all day long experience separation problems, let alone changing family at the same time, then having your bits removed on top of that.

With regards terriers being the devils of all terriers, I've never had a whole patterdale, but I have a half and a quarter, and I can't see they are that much worse than any other terrier? Fred is mostly JRT, and he's the one possessed by demons...


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

Debzdogs said:


> I don't mean to offend anyone but two things i have noticed in your reply.
> 
> 1) You *were* taking the dog on long walks but now only short ones.
> 2 ) Your husband *was* coming home at lunchtime but now doesn't ?.
> ...


No offense taken. You're right on both counts (asides from the husband bit!!!) Basically I can't endure a long walk because of his bad behaviour. Physically it hurts my arm and back and mentally it gives me a great deal of anxiety. My partner thought Stanley was more anxious with a lunchtime visit rather than without so we stopped that.


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

Burrowzig said:


> Have you had a dog before?
> 
> If he was so good in his last home, why was he given up?
> 
> ...


I haven't had a dog before although my partner has. The previous owner gave him up for 'health reasons' allegedly. That was already his first re-homing so we are his second. I guess the fault lies with us in not researching the breed thoroughly enough before taking him on


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

this is an extremely common pattern, so don't despair - there's a terrific DIY book i can recommend,
_'Click to Calm'_ has detailed, step-by-step protocols for B-Mod which apply for any reactive issue; 
just substitute the particular problem anywhere U read the word 'aggressive', it's the same process of 
desensitization & controlling any exposure to the trigger, in any or all issues. :yesnod:

Pairing "nice thing" [toy, food, ___ ] with the trigger at a distance the dog can cope with & Not React 
is the key; food makes the best first step, as eating produces endorphins that are calming, too.

So if he can see / hear / smell another dog AT A DISTANCE where he doesn't react - knows they're present, 
but isn't bothered - U feed small tidbits in a steady stream as long as the other dog is visible / audible.
this BTW is Non-Contingent: What the DOG is doing has zip to do with whether s/he gets
the goodie! - We are merely making a happy association, "I see / hear / smell X, nice things 
will happen". The dog can bark, hackle, etc, altho hopefully U are below threshold - 
it doesn't matter a whit, if s/he can eat, they can learn. IF THEY CAN'T EAT, they're 
over threshold by definition; back up, reduce the volume, leave the area, etc.
When the trigger is not perceptible [gone round the corner, into the petshop, the tag-jingle fades to 
soundless], STOP the tidbits instantly. The shorthand term for this is Open-Bar / Closed-Bar: free goodies 
just so long as the trigger is perceptible, then SNAP! - they stop, when the trigger's gone.

Tidbits should be pea-sized or even Half-pea Sized; some high-protein, low-fat, no carb options added to
his regular food [3 parts his meal, 1 part stinky goodies] will make all his kibble smell like the goodies, 
which make the ordinary diet more appealing for training. *EDIT: add the yummies to a measured meal,
in a zip-top bag; stick it in the frig overnight to 'marinate', take out what U need per session*
Pouch or canned tuna / salmon / herring / mackerel, low-fat / low-salt cheese such as part-skim grated Mozz, 
freeze-dried lamb-lung or beef-liver, etc, are all stinky, memorable, & high-value; experiment to see what 
really grabs his attention.

LAT / Look At That!... is one very helpful, super-simple technique;
the Corgi Yoshi *before* B-Mod:
Yoshi Before Control Unleashed - YouTube

The same dog during "Look At That..." sessions:
Yoshi Plays Look At That - YouTube

Yoshi Plays Look At That (using a clicker) - YouTube

the dog LOOKS at the trigger, U offer food - over time, the dog's default becomes glance at the trigger, 
then focus on the handler & expect a reward, which goes from a reliable 1-to-1 treat schedule to every
other, every 4th, every 5th, to random reinforcement [toy play, praise, treat, game, Real-Life rewards...].


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

owns the beast said:


> No offense taken. You're right on both counts (asides from the husband bit!!!) Basically I can't endure a long walk because of his bad behaviour. Physically it hurts my arm and back and mentally it gives me a great deal of anxiety. My partner thought Stanley was more anxious with a lunchtime visit rather than without so we stopped that.


If walks physically hurt I think you can manage the situation with better equipment until he is better trained, it's a catch 22 though because the less he is walked the more he will pull because he will be more full of energy. Is there anywhere safe you can take him to let him off lead away from people/dogs etc so he can play ball and run about to be exercised more? My own dog weighs 40kgs, she used to pull quite a bit but fortunately it never really hurts my arm much because of the equipment, if she's pulling on a flat collar it hurts, if she pulls on a body harness with front clip attachment (my preferred walking equipment) it doesn't affect me at all and she's big enough to reeeealllly pull if she wants to. Flat collars are bad for small breeds anyway, they have such tiny necks and if they're pulling it can cause nexk injuries so definitely look into head collars or harnesses for both your sakes. The more control you have over him the calmer you will be when you have to train while on walks.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

any dog who pulls can wear a front-clipped H-harness & it instantly improves the handler's control, 
as it's better body-mechanics for the human, but reduces the dog's power by limiting their leverage.
They can't put the full force of their chest, neck, & momentum into forward thrust, it's redirected into 
a sideways push - if U simply take one step back & stand still, the dog will be swung around that front-clip
like a boat at anchor swinging in the current, & end by facing U / looking back the way U both traveled,
wondering _what happened, there?..._

There's no force, U don't need upper-body strength or to yank the dog around; THE DOG'S own momentum 
is the power that turns them about. Very safe, very simple. If U already have a dog seat-belt harness, that 
may very well work; look on the chest-strap to see if there's a metal ring that joins all 3 straps - if so, 
simply clip the 6-ft leather or nylon leash to the ring, & off U go.

If there's no ring, don't fret; buy a LOCKING carabiner at any outdoor-supply source in a size suited 
to Ur dog, run it diagonally under the juncture of the straps across the forechest, LOCK it, & clip the 
leash to the locked carabiner... all set!

Any well-made H-harness that fits Ur dog smoothly & snugly will work fine; it should be snugged down so 
that the dog's coat is compressed, & the harness shouldn't slip side to side once adjusted, if U pull on it at 
the shoulder-strap & behind the ribs [pulling sideways with each hand on a strap, both on the same side of 
the dog's body]. U don't want it sliding forward & back on the body, nor rolling side to side.

BE SURE that any buckles don't slide into the armpit area, & don't snap them shut there - 
U risk pinching a thin fold of the almost-hairless skin, which is sensitive & the dog will yelp; we want the 
dog to feel comfy & happy wearing it, getting it on & off, not apprehensive or worried.

buckles, slide-adjustments, etc, should be well-clear of armpits, groin, & other sensitive areas, over 
well-haired body areas, to 'pad' them & keep the dog's skin safe from chafes or pressure.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Debzdogs said:


> Everyone is entitled to their opinion i suppose
> 
> Most breeds were originally working dogs of some description !. *Keeping a Patterdale as a pet is no different to a Collie or German Shepherd* !
> 
> ...


You think you have to own a breed to form an opinion on it?

Let's turn this around. How many collies have YOU owned?

I have not owned a Patterdale, and never will. I've seen too many aggressive incidents with them in my training club and at agility, as well as in the park.

Some well-trained, well socialised Patterdales DO turn out as nice dogs, but they are not a breed for an inexperienced owner. A rescue Patterdale with an uncertain history is something I'd avoid like the plague, especially if I'd not had a dog before.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

After talking to the dog pound yesterday we discovered the other half of our newly adopted fox terrier cross, its patterdale. 

I can't believe the negativity going on here. Maybe they do have a bad reputation but I think we should be careful not to tar them all with the same brush.

Our little guy is an absolute star and we are under no doubt what so ever that we chose the right dog. 

I will say this though. My dog is with me or with my husband all day. He does get seriously long walks and a lot of attention. I absolutely insist on good manners with a dog and so training is something I concentrate on. 

To the op, its tough for your little chap being on his own all day. Someone else suggested a long walk in the morning and the same in the evening with play. You owe him that much. Terriers are highly intelligent and responsive to good training. They have to respect you and see you as pack leader.

Get some good outside help. Take him to training classes. Watch U-tube videos and learn and understand about dog psychology. If after all of that you still can't cope then he is sadly not the dog for you but you owe it to him to at least try.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ThelifeofPi said:


> Terriers are highly intelligent and responsive to good training.


Agreed - they ARE highly-intelligent; also highly-reactive, thin-skinned, very vocal, short-fused, 
super-active, incessantly busy, & relentlessly persistent... also predatory.

"responsive to good training"..., Yes, they're trainable. They will also often frustrate even highly skilled
& experienced professionals, since they can go off unexpectedly like aging nitroglycerin, or sometimes 
appear to forget they ever learned the exercise at all, or find a brand-new twist on their 'compliance' 
that they haven't tried, yet - & they try it out in the ring, with the stands packed, to the crowd's delight
& the handler's horror. 

THey'll keep U guessing, wondering, laughing & often swearing - but they won't bore U. 


ThelifeofPi said:


> They have to respect you and see you as pack leader.


Let me translate that into better terms - _'They need to trust U & see U as a parent & partner.'_

Dogs don't 'pack'; the bonded pair is the foundation & kernel of any canine pack, & dogs don't pair-bond.
They'll mate with any opposite-sex dog that's available at the time; bitches are rarely picky, & males are not
in the least reserved about which Fs they'll mount: ANY THAT WILL ALLOW IT is the general rule, & ANYTIME.

When dogs =do= form packs, it's with a common goal: hunting, tracking, chasing, possibly killing.
When the activity stops, the pack dissolves into individuals; they don't share puppy-rearing, pup-feeding, 
a group-kill that all eat, a territory they all defend, a single litter with multiple parents & teachers.

A bunch of dogs in a dog-park that get excited when a fight breaks out between 2 dogs & a free-for-all 
begins is NOT a 'pack' - it's a mob, with a mob's easy-to-arouse passion & no self-control, just like a bunch 
of humans who are out to lynch someone, start a riot, or smash storefronts & steal.


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

Semantics. I was talking 'Alpha' verses 'omega'


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## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

I bred, trained and worked terriers for years and handled (read managed) correctly they are no different than any other dog. I still have one and she works, although at 8 she does enjoy her bed and unless she knows she's out with the pack on a work day, the filthy looks are something else when I suggest she "moves herself"
As a previous member said, they are terriers and bred to work and by nature this work usually involves aggression.
The problem you're experiencing is I guess two fold.
1. Separation anxiety
2. Control or dominance.
The dog thinks it's the boss and this has to be corrected and in the right hands can take little more than an hour. Find a good trainer who understands and works with behaviour problems. There is a vast difference between a trainer and behaviourist. Ask the trainer to do a home visit rather than you go to him/her. The problems as I see it are home based.
The barking is connected to separation anxiety and again a one hour visit will guide you in the right direction and probably correct this also.
Terriers, Patterdales in particular can make great pets, but they need mental stimulation more so than physical exercise.
Ten mile walks only exercise muscle, the brain can remain in a high state of excitement throughout that walk and beyond. You will not, I repeat not, tire a Patterdal with exercise alone. You have to exhaust the brain. Most dogs after an hours intensive training fall asleep on the way home if it's done properly.

Food treats used incorrectly can make matters considerably worse in many situations.
Where do you find a good trainer? Paper qualifications are one route but experience has a greater value. A good trainer will ask lots of questions, suggest a home visit rather than attending a training ground and within 15 minutes of actually working with you and the dog (after the questions) you should begin to see a marked change in the dog and handler relationship. If you don't you may suggest terminating the session and paying only for the time spent. There are a lot of fraudsters out there, you are looking for results.
In 90% of all cases it is the handler, not the dog.
A good trainer fosters a relationship between dog and handler, never uses force and uses food rewards rarely.
Pat's, I love 'em, we used to would work packs of 'em to the whistle and only when a bitch reaches the interesting stage did the males display dominance, that is not to be confused with aggression.
Why did you have the chestnuts removed? On whose advice? 

Unless there is a mental or physical problem your query can be rectified quickly and at little cost. It is a behaviour problem and in my view that is the route to travel in search of a solution.

Best of luck with the boy. (I have a Border with me now)

Willyee


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

ThelifeofPi said:


> After talking to the dog pound yesterday we discovered the other half of our newly adopted fox terrier cross, its patterdale.
> 
> I can't believe the negativity going on here. Maybe they do have a bad reputation but I think we should be careful not to tar them all with the same brush.


In no way would I want to tar all patterdales, or any dogs with the same brush, at all - and I have a terrier cross myself who is ace, but I do think that when training a dog it's important to bear in mind his or her breed or type, and natural tendencies etc - just the same as when selecting a dog you need to think of the needs the dog will have as not all dogs are the same.

Not every home or environment is suitable for every type of dog, not all dogs respond the same way to the same approach and it is not possible for all dogs to be good at everything - to a certain extent you have to work with the type of dog that you have. Terriers of any sort do behave differently to gundogs or hounds and to have the best chance of success with them, it's important to bear this in mind.

Naomi


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## ThelifeofPi (Mar 18, 2013)

I couldn't agree more with everything you have said. 

Personally I think the op has chosen the wrong dog and I think many people make huge mistakes when it comes to choosing the right breed for them. 

Sweet, cuddly and small isn't the right reason to choose a particular breed. 

I have never owned a terrier before but having been around horses all of my life, I have plenty of friends that own terriers. I already had a very good idea of their temperaments.

On average I will walk my dog for two hours a day. I have plenty of time to work on his training but also I have owned dogs in the past for their entire lives and I trained both of those dogs to what most would regard a high standard. 

I wouldn't recommend a terrier as a first dog anymore than I would recommend a border collie to someone who has to leave it home alone all day. 

The thing is, should the op try and find yet another home for this dog? or should she try, for the dogs sake to understand the breed more and how to train it? If she was asking about buying a terrier I would be amongst those that said 'don't' but he's already hers. 

Being negative about a dog that is already owned regarding its breed and how its all hopeless doesn't help any.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Willylee said:


> I bred, trained and worked terriers for years and handled (read managed) correctly they are no different than any other dog. I still have one and she works, although at 8 she does enjoy her bed and unless she knows she's out with the pack on a work day, the filthy looks are something else when I suggest she "moves herself"
> As a previous member said, they are terriers and bred to work and by nature this work usually involves aggression.
> The problem you're experiencing is I guess two fold.
> 1. Separation anxiety
> ...


Wonder where you got this nonsense from  Perhaps you should inform the best and brightest that they're doing it wrong


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Willylee said:


> The problem you're experiencing is I guess two fold.
> 1. Separation anxiety...


What has convinced U at this remove that the dog has sep-anx?
Barking can be boredom, barrier-frustration when the dog sees / hears something & cannot get to it,
demand-barking [attn, anxiety, hungry, etc], reaction to sounds-off, & more.

SEP-ANX is about escape; getting *out* to find the person / any human, it's a k9 panic-attack. Some dogs
are overattached to one person; others are just anxious without ppl, any ppl.
But escape is the quintessential compulsion, & i don't see that here, myself.

There are no tales of doorsills scratched, lino ripped-up, digging at door panels, chewing door-frames, 
chewing the crate-frame, digging frantically at the crate floor, & so on.


Willylee said:


> The problem you're experiencing is...
> 
> 2. Control or dominance.
> The dog thinks [he's] the boss... this has to be corrected, &* in the right hands, can take little more
> than an hour*.


Really?! :skep: Are we watching CM/DW on Natl-Geo "fix" a dog in 30-mins flat, including commercials?...

BTW, for the Brits reading, USA-telly has 10-mins of commercials in a half-hour TV-program, so The Toothy One
does his majick in just 20-mins on screen. Remarkable, eh?... 


Willylee said:


> 10-mile walks only exercise muscle, the brain can remain in a high state of excitement throughout that
> walk & beyond... You have to exhaust the brain.


sounds amazingly like a psittacine repeating something heard on the aforementioned CM/DW... :skep:
& i don't agree with it when *himself* says it, either. Physically-tired dogs are a lot less-likely to 
act out, across the full spectrum of behavior; they can't be arsed to aggress, bully, yank so endlessly 
on the lead, etc, cuz let's face it, _*they're tired.*_ Exercise also releases endorphins; it helps 
to relax, it reduces many nasty psych-issues from depression to anxiety to global fears, *it feels good 
& it's good for U.* What's not to like? 


Willylee said:


> Most dogs, after an hour's intensive training, fall asleep on the way home, if it's done properly.





Willylee said:


> Food treats *used incorrectly* can make matters considerably worse in many situations.


Can U give a concrete example of 'incorrect use of food'?

if it's timing, that's easy to fix; it becomes instantly obvious, as the thing the dog is DOING when the food 
is delivered, is what we reinforce; produce the reinforcer too late or too early, U reinforce the actions
either prior-to or just-after the one U wanted... oops.  Handler error; 
Fix the timing, the dog's behavior choice is changed as we reinforce the one We Wanted, all is good.
Simple; i've taught kids to do this as young as 8-YO. :thumbup1: They're quite good, the youngsters.


Willylee said:


> Where do you find a good trainer? ...experience has a greater value [than paper-credentials].


Kinda like The Toothy One?...  Somehow i have more faith in someone who has actually 
learned something about behavior-theory, scientific method, & basic psychology of behavior than 
i have in somebody who grew-up in 1960s rural Mexico, watching semi-feral dogs who lived outdoors, bred
at will, often fed themselves on wild game or garbage or dead livestock, & were a long way from what 
we would call "pets".


Willylee said:


> A good trainer fosters a relationship between dog and handler, never uses force, & uses food rewards rarely.


Gee... we were in agreement right to the point where U said, _"uses food rarely",_ what a pity.


Willylee said:


> Why did you have the chestnuts removed?


Where i grew-up, we call 'em testes; testis for singular. :skep:


Willylee said:


> On whose advice?


Most vets & the majority of trainers will agree that unless the dog is to be bred, desex is the better option
for a pet-dog... or cat, or rabbit, ferret, Guinea-pig, rat, & just about any other mammal, short of a mare.
[Desex IS still strongly suggested for studs & colts, as geldings are much-easier to manage & handle.
Only the sheer size of mares & the hazards of abdominal-surgery plus G-A make spaying impractical.]


Willylee said:


> Unless there is a mental or physical problem your [difficulty?] can be rectified quickly & [cheaply].
> It's a behaviour problem & IMO that is the route to travel in search of a solution.


We - [notice i include =U= among 'we'] - do not *know* as yet if there's a *mental or physical problem*;
we're not vets, we haven't seen the dog, there are many possible causes for specific behaviors.

Also, assuming it can be "fixed cheaply" is a huge assumption; usually yes, but not always. Some folks 
have a terrible time following directions; others have a dog whose issues are bigger than 1st thought.

Some dogs have already been *made worse* & their behavior is more fluent, more habitual, & less 
consciously-controlled / easily altered, DUE TO someone having already mimicked the harsh handling, 
intimidation, harassment, etc, as practiced by the Toothy One & his self-taught kin, as seen on TV, 
Utube, on the street & in many public-parks. :mad5: As many of my SoCal fellow-trainers have opined, 
they'd much rather have worked on the dogs original issues / problem behaviors, rather than work 
with the dog AFTER he-Whose-name-We-Do-Not-mention has already "fixed" them, & the problems are now
more complex, multiplied, & more practiced. :nonod:

it can be mental & / or physical & / or behavioral; it could even be all 3: *k9 cognitive disorder* is one such,
as the dogs are seniors [normally], have brain & circulatory changes, organ issues, AND resulting behavioral 
problems; U can't tease it apart & say, _"this is *the* root-cause",_ as they overlap.
Poor blood-flow to the brain, aging organs allow toxins to accumulate in the bloodstream, cardiac insufficiency, 
brain plaques - it's a multi-system syndrome, even a change of context can make it much, much worse; 
move house with a senior-dog who's coping just fine, & in the new home s/he may fall apart behaviorally
& emotionally, becoming needy, confused, incontinent, barky & distressed when alone, & so on.

_IMO & IME:_
This dog is a young-adult who's been bounced to his 3rd home; he sounds anxious to me, not *dumbinant*.
Rather than needing SOMEONE IN CHARGE TO TEACH HIM RESPECT, i think he needs supportive routines, 
happy experiences, reliable patterns [D follows C follows B follows A...], & some over-the-counter calmatives 
couldn't hurt, & may very well help... 
a lot. They DON't interact with meds or food, they DON't risk overdose, they DON't cost a lot, & they WON't 
make him worse ---- either they help, or they don't do a doggone thing, IME of more than 30-years. :thumbup1:

personally, as i suffer from ADRs [adverse drug reactions], i happen to _Love!_ stuff that has zero side-effects. 
:001_tt1: That alone, IMO, is priceless.

Calmatives: What, When, How, Where, How much... 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/1457713-post22.html

That's ONE post, not a thread; if U prefer to find it, look for post #22 on the Dog Body-Language sticky, 
on this sub-forum [behavior & training].  Enjoy!


----------



## Janey D (Jul 27, 2012)

Hi, well done for rescuing him. We rescued a JRT x last July and for a while I thought we had made a terrible mistake. I would have given him back without the support of my husband and the Blue Cross Rescue centre.

I grew up with terriers and love them. Some people think terriers are monsters and I was told that as a new dog owner I was taking on too much. I did think they were right for a while! Terriers are not the most naturally obedient dogs but they are clever and mine will do anything for food - you just need lots of patience.

Read up on separation anxiety on here. Bertie has never barked when we leave him to go out but he didnt like being shut away from everyone else so I did lots of going outside with my coat and car keys then coming back in. I also believe that terriers arent great dogs for people who work as they like to be around people so you might need to look at your daily routine.

Berties lunging and barking at other dogs has been massively reduced by joining socialisation classes run by a local trainer. We also had him assessed by a behaviourist to establish that he wasnt aggressive with other dogs - just very excitable and this really helped my confidence. I have taught Bertie the watch me command to get him to stop lunging at tractors and bikes. This took ages but we are getting there now.

Bertie also used to get a bit funny when hubby gave me a cuddle. We use treats to distract him and make a fuss of him when he gets it right.

Pulling on the lead is a hard one. Bertie only does it when he goes somewhere new or gets the scent of something. I have a rule that the more Bertie pulls the slower I walk. I will never allow him to drag me around and will stand still for as long as it takes until he gets the message.

It took around six months for me to build up a relationship with Bertie where he understands that doing what I want gets him rewards. I dont believe in dominance theories but I do believe that being consistent and rewarding the right behaviour every time gets results. I also think that some of the issues we had at the beginning were just because he was confused and unsettled by what had happened to him. Being patient and consistent and just giving it time will make a difference.

Bertie still has a way to go but he is a completely different dog to the one we rescued 8 months ago and is now a brilliant family pet. You will need to put the work in and be prepared for some really low points but rehoming a rescue dog is always going to be a challenge, whatever dog you get.


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## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> What has convinced U at this remove that the dog has sep-anx?
> Barking can be boredom, barrier-frustration when the dog sees / hears something & cannot get to it,
> demand-barking [attn, anxiety, hungry, etc], reaction to sounds-off, & more.
> 
> ...


..............................................................................................

Wow!!!!! There appears to be some generated stress here with the message getting lost in its' translation.

Suggest leashedForLife sits down with a coffee, perhaps a glass of something stronger and reads the message again, carefully and slowly.

After 5 decades of breeding, training and working sporting dogs (pets also)and their owners successfully I have concluded the following.

Train without pain, beat the owner, never the dog and importantly learn the language of DOG.

I would never, ever stoop so low as to correct another on terminology unless of course it was factually incorrect and then, only politely and discreetly. If chestnuts were understood by the readers of this forum to mean testicles, the message was successfully transmitted. In this part of Cheshire in l'il ol England it is a common term and a part of our means of communication when discussing dogs.

Everything I wrote, to assist the owner of one of these fabulous terriers, I stand by, word for word. I have worked these fiesty little dogs and trained them to the whistle over many years and whilst I may be technically competent I have no desire to display this knowledge on a forum designed to help others.

Best not to suffer from "important person" syndrome.

Summary therefore......Relax, chill and digest the message. Read betwen the lines and begin to understand, you can and frequently do learn from others although important persons rarely admit to the fact.

Willylee'


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Willylee said:


> The dog thinks it's the boss and this has to be corrected and in the right hands can take little more than an hour.
> 
> Willyee


have a read of this? It might open up a new way?

Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

Some quite heated debate going on here!!!

We had a dog trainer visit us at the house on Sunday and he stayed for a few hours which included a walk with Stanley. He's given us some tips, we just have to follow them and see what happens.

Something new yesterday, I was off work for the day and just playing indoors with Stanley, throwing a ball and having him fetch it and bring it back. Suddenly he just stopped and peed right in front of me. He's never done this before.

I appreciate what people are saying with regards to it being the 'wrong' breed to have if it's basically going to be a stay-at-home dog. Obviously as potential new owners we should have researched the breed more. I honestly can't see us getting rid of him, even if he doesn't improve behaviourally, as we've both fallen in love with him 

We'll bring in the dog trainer again in another couple of weeks.

Thanks for all the replies :thumbup1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Willylee said:


> Relax, chill and digest the message.


i asked one highly-specific question of U; feel free to discard the rest as general discussion.

Please offer one example of _"making [behavioral] matters worse, by using food incorrectly" - _
thank U in advance for clarifying.


----------



## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

Hello. 

Did the dog need to go? 
How long was it since his last trip outdoors?
How long since he last had a drink? 
Do you let him drink the dregs of your tea or coffee?
How along had you been playing with him?
Was it bladder evacuation or just a spot?


I know it sounds obvious, but playing with a ball indoors will induce excitement
and if he needed to urinate, bearing in mind you've not had him with you for long, he didn't think twice, being unsure about the rules of the household perhaps just relieved himself.

Don't give up on this little chap, you will be surprised how much he will bring to you, with very little effort on your part.

Your trainer, is he experienced with field type working dogs, terriers in particular? Did you make progress, as you say he was with you for a couple of hours? They're no different to other dogs in reality but experience with them helps.

Training him should be made up of many short steps.....but constantly.

Please keep posting progress and if you want to talk, I'll give you my email address or telephone number.

Willylee.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Willylee said:


> Did the dog need to go?
> How long was it since his last trip outdoors?
> How long since he last had a drink?
> Do you let him drink the dregs of your tea or coffee?
> ...


CLICK! :thumbup:


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Of course... 
it could just be he`s not been house trained very well?


----------



## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

Response to leashedForLife.

Many trainers in the UK use food rewards unnecesarily.

In the working dog fraternity it frequently creates more problems than it solves.

In agility and other working dog disciplines it can and I'm sure it does, prove a useful tool. I do not work in that field. I work in the main with working dogs and pets.

In the hands of a professional, food rewards are fine.

In the wrong hands it frequently creates confusion, creating an unwanted response that I've had the pleasure of correcting on far too many occasions.

I use food rewards rarely and sparingly, always have done and will continue to do so until proven otherwise. Other methods are equally as effective, particularly the bonding of dog and handler.

My training methods are based on calm control and encouraging the dog to respond willingly and enthusiastically. 

Watching a six year old girl handle a two year old labrador (dog) on a gundog scurry and coming second against some fierce competition is particularly satisfying. The daughter of a very good friend of mine. She now works three dogs in the field and is 12 years of age. They have a small meat treat at lunchtime, after they have settled. Work again in the afternoon.

If you haven't experienced problems with the incorrect use of food rewards in training then we are either on two completely different playing fields or suffering from selective memory.

I hope you continue to enjoy your work with dogs and may we agree there is no single system to satisfy all circumstances and that variation is the only means to the end result.

Kind regards.

Richard Williams-Leigh

(Train without pain. Learn the language of DOG)


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

ClaireandDaisy said:


> Of course...
> it could just be he`s not been house trained very well?


Well yeah... but chasing around after a ball is likely to bring on the need to pee no?

Office lurcher was always straight outside for a pee after playtime as a pup.

Not sure you two are disagreeing on the wet carpet front...


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

Willylee said:


> Hello.
> 
> Did the dog need to go?
> How long was it since his last trip outdoors?
> ...


It was a full bladder void. Up until then he'd always go to the back door when he needed to pee so I was very surprised. It had probably been around 4 hours since his lunchtime walk. The trainer had a Diploma in Dog Psychology but I don't know how much credit to give that???


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

What sort of problems have you seen caused by the use of food rewards Willylee? I've seen the "only does it when he can see a treat" problem complained about a lot but that's it. 

I take Spen out roughly every 4 hours and find that exercise like chasing a toy does seem to trigger him to need to toilet so if we've had a game of something and it's been a while since he was out I take him out.


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## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

Elementary my dear Watson, said Sherlock, I deduce from the evidence, the dog simply wanted a pee. 
Why was that Holmes? The Fire Brigade was the giveaway. He obviously had the fullest of bladders.
Huff puff went Watson, why didn't I think of that, muttering as he left the room. 

It takes a second to get a terrier excited, a lifetime to calm him down.

He was having fun, enjoying himself and just thought nothing of it. In that excited state he probably thought he was outside. Similar to red mist when driving, we fail to think logically and make all manner of silly comments and gestures.

In dog training, you cannot move forward unless the dog is calm. Only when he's calm will he respond effectively to guidance. He begins to actually use his brain.



Dog trainers and diploma's!!!!. In my proper job I worked within the legal profession and I offer assurances, there are many professionals with all manner of paper qualifications who cannot provide a practical solution to the simplest of tasks. They can however charge substantial fees.

Best to recruit the services of a experienced practical (dogman) trainer with a paper qualification, not the other way round, to certify he's attended the course, understood the tuition and satisfied the examiners.

Before recruiting a trainer...interview/grill him/her...experience counts for a lot.
Ask for a demonstration with one of his/her dogs......not an 8 year old labrador that's retired with arthritis. 

At the end of one hour you should see a measureable improvement. Whether it will last indefinitely is up to you. A good trainer will teach you to communicate with the dog.....he will not train the dog!! 

I have corrected a great deal, done by so many who charged so much.

Before the qualified, start shooting arrows, there are a great number out there who are very, very good....there are just not enough to go round, leaving space for the charlatans to step in.

As I've said before, terriers were the love of my life for many years and all worked in harmony and I had a lot. 

I would like to see you succeed with this chap.

Take your time and heed the best advice available. When the snow disappears, July at this rate, you'll have immense fun taking him out into the countryside. In the meantime work on the recall to whistle.....easier than yelling!!! 

Try to find a river where it's just you....no distractions, watch him work the bank, in this instance you can get him excited but still have him obey your commands, because he's excited being with you, having fun together, working as a team. I used to love it but I'm old now.

Have fun........and when your on the settee with your partner.......just don't upset the dog ye hear!!!!! No cuddling!!!!! Simple!!!

Willylee

Train without pain. Beat the owner, ne'er the dog.
Learn the language of DOG


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

Well this guy didn't really do any training as such, he just gave us a list of things to do and then went on a walk with us to see Stanley's reactions to various things as he walked. Certainly there was no 'difference' in Stanley when he left and hasn't been since. I suspect it will just take a lot of time and patience on our behalf


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## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

Sarah 1983.

Food treats have been a pain for me over many years.

As you have no doubt read, my dogs have a working purpose, they're still pets, cosseted and despite what I say to to others, I still have meaningful conversations with them about the economy and the price of vet's bills.

In the hands of a thinking professional they are used psychologically...for a purpose....sparingly.... and rarely....sometimes as a tease to gain attention.

Occasionally I will have a piece of dried liver in my pocket, put my hand on it and to get the attention of a dog in training to look at me I will tease him with a whiff. The liver stays in my pocket. Once he looks at me I will place my other hand under his chin, that is his reward. That is a very loose, vague outline only, for those who wish to criticise already!!!

You asked for a "for instance"

One of the problems with a Retriever returning with a dummy is to create a well presented delivery to hand.
Dog will walk round you rather than offer it up. It's his prize after all, why should he?
Trainer comes along and suggest offering a food reward.
Dog comes in because he smells something tasty close to you. You take the dummy and give him the treat. Brilliant...it worked.
He may do that again and you feel pleased with progress.
BUT and this has happened to so many people who've brought their dog to me...the dog now comes in with dummy and either throws it at you to get the treat or simply drops it at your feet. He thinks he's done well and the average owner gets frustrated, the dog is confused!
NOW .. the dog comes back and doesn't get the treat, the incentive to perform to a high standard has gone and reluctance sets in.

Back to square one.

The above has happened so many times and my task is then to correct.

I prefer to train quietly, calmly encourage the dog to want to come to you first....let him hold the dummy for a while and relieve him of it.
No (food) treats other than him wanting his praise, a soft calm voice and a stroke under the chin.
I've had dogs brought to me, so reliant on treats that without them they display reluctance and these have been problem dogs who've been to trainer(s)

Pets that you simply want to come back in any old fashion, sit, rollover, walk on one leg whilst pushing a pram can & do benefit from food reward but this is training to do tricks.


Dogs reluctant to jumping into the back of a car! ? Throw in a biscuit or the piece of liver....instant result. My experience, in that instance, it is used to take away the anxiety of jumping into the car for the first time. Altering the mindset!
Springers are easily cured of this problem. They will sit and wait to be picked up........wrong. The biscuit works, but I only do it once....the anxiety has gone, usually forever.

Hope that helps

Willylee

Train without pain
Beat the owner, ne'er the dog.
Learn the language of DOG


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation. I would say your example is incorrect use of food rewards that's the problem rather then the actual use of food rewards though  It's certainly possible to teach precise and complicated behaviours using food without distressing the dog. But yes, it's a problem I've seen/heard about now you mention it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

owns the beast said:


> It was a full bladder void... til then, he'd [gone] to the back door when he needed to pee,
> so I was very surprised. It had probably been around 4 hours since his lunchtime walk.


yup! Excitement & engaged in an activity he didn't want to stop / interrupt, plus a full bladder, which is as we
can empathize, is uncomfortable sloshing about as we gallop - anyone who runs, jogs, & so on, will be 
very familiar with that over-full sensation, or the common experience of NOT needing to 'go' till we stand up, 
or walk out the house-door [arrgh!], or otherwise lift & carry that bladder. 


owns the beast said:


> The trainer *had a Diploma in Dog Psychology...*


 : :blink: :lol: :biggrin: :lol: :thumbup1: ... oh, i LOve it! thanks for the laugh. :biggrin:

Who issued this document? The Toothy One? --- A dog-psych college at a major university?
A new trainers' school with a fully-accredited diplomate faculty?... Inquiring minds are DYING to know.
Please do spill! :thumbup1:


owns the beast said:


> ...but I don't know how much credit to give that?


Not much.  Of course, that is JMO, Ur mileage may vary!


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Thanks for the reply re food-fallout, Richard; personally, i rarely see problems with food *other than* as Sarah
notes, the handler who hasn't learned how to fade it; or who doesn't know how to get it off their person/ out of 
their hands, use it remotely for specific needs or task-training, & so forth.


Willylee said:


> Ask for a demonstration with one of her / his dogs... [but] not an 8-YO Lab that's retired with arthritis.


Plenty of my fellow-trainers only have aging dogs; what should they do, toss their much-loved seniors into 
the nearest shelter, & adopt or buy or breed a young replacement? :shocked: Not everyone can have a stable
of dogs, with a selection of multiple ages, types, skills, sizes, etc, for tailored demonstrations.

i've borrowed clients' dogs that i've worked with & know well as demo-dogs or stooges for certain issues; 
but i rarely have had more than ONE dog at a time. That dog is my personal pet, for their lifetime;
we're all aging, that's not optional. Nobody gets 'younger' with the years - & if my old dog is so aged or 
unwell or infirm that a demo is too much for her or him, i use somebody else's dog.  No worries!

i've even used shelter-dogs for demonstrations - occasionally while still in the run.  Whatever works - 
grab that teachable moment. :thumbup1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Willylee said:


> One of the problems with a Retriever returning with a dummy is to create a well-presented delivery to hand.
> Dog will walk round you rather than offer it up. It's his prize after all, why should he?


Service-dogs need a very solid 'hold' as well as a reliable 'give' for items they retrieve; 
if the owner has muscle or strength or co-ordination issues, s/he may take quite some while to 
reach the dog or reach for the item or request the dog to deliver it, to hand or to their lap, table-top, 
whatever the targeted delivery point.

back-chaining the fetch process starts with the END action & moves to the very initial behavior - 
this results in the dog always repeating the end-goal, the most-needed thing, many times before adding 
a new 'novel' action before that super-familiar, "i can do it in my sleep" behavior. Then we add the 
next thing before that step, & the one before that, & the one... Until we get to the very, very 1st step, 
AT THE END.

Thus back-chaining the retrieve teaches grasp & HOLD before anything else.  the dog gets really solid
practice at that step, long before we ask her / him to "go get something".

a clip of an SD-training, teaching fetch with food & back-chaining:
Training 'Take' and 'Give' Objects for a Formal Service Dog Retrieve - YouTube

a bird-dog learning a back-chained fetch:
Clicker Training a Bird Dog Retrieve Part 1 Shaping and Chaining The Basic Retrieve - YouTube

finishing touches to the bird-dog fetch:
Clicker Training a Bird Dog Retrieve Part 2 Finishing Touches - YouTube

games / chores: 
Hold an object reliably; Clean up / Put away objects
Dog Training Tutorial: Holding Objects & Clean Up! - YouTube
Notice that he doesn't add the LABEL "hold" [it's not a cue, yet!], until the young GSD has the basic 
concept pretty well-practiced as a nameless behavior, environmentally cued [he offers the hat, 
the dog takes & holds it].


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Willylee said:


> Pets that you simply want to come back in any old fashion, sit, roll-over, walk on hind-legs whilst pushing
> a pram, [& similar], can & do benefit from food rewards, but this is training [dogs] to do tricks.


for the dogs, it's ALL tricks; dogs don't value the things that we teach them as 'serious' or 'important',
vs 'silly' or 'demeaning' - we want them to do X, they want what they get out of doing it for us; if that's 
fetch the duck, bite a 'bad guy' in a bite-suit, push a speed-dial to call 911, it's all the same, to the dog.

the dog who is learning to dial 911 doesn't comprehend that someone's life or safety may hang on this
behavior - they're just learning to do what we apparently want them to do; we make it worthwhile, 
& they do it.

SELF-rewarding activities [herding / chasing, door-bolting, barking, escape the fenced run, etc] 
aren't taught as are entirely-artificial behaviors, like "heel", which has no counterpart in dogs' innate
behavior-repertoire. Many of them, like rooting in the kitchen-trash, are behaviors we'd rather 
the dog didn't learn at all.  Some [herd, hunt, fetch] are self-rewarding & innate, but we can use the opp
to engage in that behavior as part of the reward, during training & later in actual application.

OTOH, there's nothing intrinsically rewarding about finding a buried land-mine, body, or quake-victim.
We have to MAKE it rewarding, anticipatory, & powerful.


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## owns the beast (Mar 21, 2013)

leashedForLife said:


> yup! Excitement & engaged in an activity he didn't want to stop / interrupt, plus a full bladder, which is as we
> can empathize, is uncomfortable sloshing about as we gallop - anyone who runs, jogs, & so on, will be
> very familiar with that over-full sensation, or the common experience of NOT needing to 'go' till we stand up,
> or walk out the house-door [arrgh!], or otherwise lift & carry that bladder.
> ...


I did comment that I was unaware Dog Psychology was an academic subject. No doubt it was something produced off the internet and laminated to provide extra dazzle. To give him credit (???) he didn't ask for any money, although that could probably have been so people actually give him a tenner for his troubles.....


----------



## PopsAndUs (Aug 2, 2012)

Willylee said:


> Try to find a river where it's just you....no distractions, watch him work the bank, in this instance you can get him excited but still have him obey your commands, because he's excited being with you, having fun together, working as a team. I used to love it but I'm old now.


I like the sound of this... could you explain a bit more about what working the bank is please?


----------



## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

There are, as I am sure you are well aware unscrupulous individuals out there, who, for whatever reason purport to be a dog trainer.
They have one, probably a dog that has taught the trainer and not the other way round and he, or she will use that dog if asked and they rarely are in my experience to provide by way of reference as to their skills, a demonstration.
This dog may, just may by now have reached a ripe old age and the onset of arthritis is evident, but the dog, bless it goes through the motions, a routine that is tried, tested and well honed.
The charlatan in this instance displays such a degree of mastery, the unsuspecting dog owner with a problem stands in awe and agrees to a verbal contract with the view to parting company with hard earned sterling.
This street circus is a sham, as with many displays where animals are concerned. 
I, not too sure about others here, but I would be more impressed if the demonstration was made up of a youngster, a mature student and a fully trained.
To avoid further confusion, not necessarily at the same time. 
My thread was not in any way a criticism of mature dogs or a suggestion they be dumped on the useless scrap heap but an indicator related directly to the topic that if you are to use a trainer, check him out, ask questions and be convinced of his (or her) capabilities and worthy of being paid for services rendered by a demonstration using a challenging dog. This is to identify the fraudster, the fake, the smooth talker and the man who talks but cannot walk.
Nowhere did I suggest, imply or even assert that a mature dog should be byepassed, but some reason you seem to think that I did.

For a demonstration I will use anything up to four dogs.

The display will be tailored to the problem and the players will respond to body language in the main, the whistle and soft verbal commands.
I trust the above clarifies any of the confusion generated in my last thread, but for convenience and kindness (read sympathy) to the readers I try my utmost not write a novel on each and every occasion.
I strive to keep the points brief, concise, to the point and factual.

Who precisely is the "toothey one" , is there a name for this individual and if so, why isn't reference made? Is he by any chance a doggy dentist? Has he or she made a huge success out of his trade or is he an utter failure? I would be interested to know, that's for sure.

Willylee

Train without pain.
Beat the owner....frequently and hard in many instances....ne'er the dog!!!!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Willylee said:


> ...I'd be more impressed if the demo [included] a youngster, a mature student, & a fully trained [k9].


I don't own 3 dogs at the same time; i've had TWO simultaneously, never yet 3 of my own, & usually 
I have a single dog... So i guess i fail Ur criteria.  Ah, well.

i may have a client's dog in house, but s/he may not be a demo-candidate; usually they're here for B-Mod, 
or are staying cuz they've been hurt / ill / are in need of home-nursing, or have sep-anx & need 
'company' to cope.

As i said, i've borrowed client's dogs [that i've worked with previously] for demos; the dogs enjoy it, 
the clients don't mind - their dog gets an outing & has some fun. 


Willylee said:


> ...if you are to use a trainer, check [her or] him out, ask Qs, & be convinced of her (or his) capabilities,
> [& that s/he's] worthy of [possible hire], by [watching] a demo *using a challenging dog*.


As i said in my prior-post:
I've used dogs in shelter as demo-dogs, whom i've not met before & who don't know me, simply 
to show the pet-owner what training can do, & how simple it can be.

Often the dog are still in their kennel-runs, free to bark, race in circles, fence-fight, whatever.

99% of the dogs i meet in shelters here in the USA have *zero* training; perhaps 1 in 4 knows 
"sit" if U hold a closed hand above their head-ht, close to Ur body - they assume there's food in hand, 
& may - notice i say, "may" - SIT when verbally cued.

if that's not a *challenging* training scenario, i don't know what is: 14 to 20 dogs, at least half barking at any
one time, strangers walking in & out, kennel-staff cleaning runs & moving dogs, dogs jumping-up on the 
cyclone-fence dividing the runs, eyeballing each other, or jumping at the gate to solicit attn / get out...


Willylee said:


> For a demo, I'll use... up to four dogs.


for a demo, i'll get the entire kennel-wing to stop barking. :thumbup1: Cheers!
- terry


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## Willylee (Mar 21, 2013)

I have to concede, your theories are without question or contradiction.
There are many people in this world who talk the talk but are unable to walk the walk never the less.
You indicate a capability far beyond my imagination, in that, a whole wing of dogs in rescue can be silenced but you coincidentally remain exceedingly quiet as to the method used. Is that perhaps you may just leave yourself open to question or forbid, criticism.
Theory is one thing, practice is way beyond the majority.
And the toothey one, conspicuous by the absence in your last thread. Envy, jealousy of his/her/their success, surley not, not from the professional. Please identify, that would be nice.
All of this is of little benefit to the Patterdale terrier who barks constantly and displays unacceptable behaviour whilst out and with this in mind and much to the relief of the other readers I will close on this note, but by way of good manners and politeness will suggest, indeed invite you to have the last word(ssss)

Willylee


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Willylee said:


> You indicate a capability far beyond my imagination... a whole wing of dogs in [a public shelter]
> can be silenced, but you coincidentally remain exceedingly quiet as to the method used.


What do i do?
the same thing hundreds of thousands of other Pos-R trainers do: i use (gasp!...) *food, OMD!*

i feed the 1st dog that shuts-up.  Then her / his neighbor is intrigued, & shuts-up & is given a treat...
& so on, & on & on, until every dog is sitting silent, wagging, waiting for the next morsel.

The 1st time takes a few minutes; the 2nd generally half as long, & if we exit the wing & return, the barking is 
less-frantic & stops sooner. Usually in under 10-minutes, we can leave, return & hear a few token barks, 
& see dogs sit by default within 60-seconds of our reappearance --- all sans cues, signals, 'corrections' AKA 
punishment --- IOW, shouts of _"Shaddup, already!"_ aren't needed. 

Very low-key, very simple, anyone can do this - so long as they're willing to let the penny drop, vs try to 
_Shut Up!_ the dogs, who need time to figure out why the other dogs are being rewarded 
[they're not barking...], & follow suit. EZ, peasy.

Once the dogs are reliably quiet shortly after we arrive, we add a LABEL to that action: 'Hush', spoken in a whisper.
Dogs can hear whispers quite nicely, better than any human, even -thru- barking, including their own.

Once the label is well-connected, we can TRY it as a cue, given -before- the action vs during it.
If it doesn't work, no worries - go back to labeling it for the dog until it sticks.

Not hard at all - U CAN DO THIS AT HOME! :thumbup1: :thumbup: _*No disclaimer needed.*_ 


Willylee said:


> ...the [toothy] one... Please identify.


He Whose Name We Dare Not Utter is the host of an un-reality TV-show that Natl-geo claims is entertainment.

personally, i don't find it *'entertaining'* - but formulaic, laced with cliches, & full of harsh-handling.

Most truisms spoken by the host are so ancient, they weren't just hoary in my childhood, they were bald 
as billiard-balls, even back then. Most of the 'original' stuff is variations on the theme that dogs R wolves 
[which they are not], or dogs are rebelling / bossing us around / mindfully disobedient / plotting a coup... 
laced with advice to DOMINAte thE dOG, "take command", BE ThE PacK lEadER, & other general hogwash.

Of course, the above is merely my own no-doubt ignorant opinion - but i happen to share it with several 
thousand other pos-R trainers, here in the USA, plus thousands of our peers round the globe, plus millions 
of ordinary dog-owners in many countries. :thumbup1: Dogs aren't rebels, wolves, or cunning plotters - 
they're the one species we've lived with longest, co-evolved with, & share a deep rapport with.

Humans, IME, are the species that will rebel, plot revenge, defy authority, carry a grudge, etc.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

owns the beast said:


> my partner and I re-homed a 4-YO M Patterdale-X at Xmas. He was castrated two weeks ago,
> but we're still having behavioural problems...
> 
> 1. Pulling on the lead when he walks
> ...


To quote Brian Kilcommon, another trainer but with a MUCH higher public-profile than mine:
_'Control 1st - then train.'_

I've already mentioned a front-clip H-harness to make it impossible for him to practice dragging U about;

re barking on walks, 
be prepared to give him additional distance from all other dogs [go up a drive, step off a footpath
or sidewalk, cross the street to avoid the house of a known barker / fence-runner, etc, etc]; simply widening
the gap between them will help him to be less-reactive.

Further, AVOID at all costs near-encounters in bottlenecks: doorways, gates, between parked cars...
if U cannot see well, YOU go 1st, HE follows thru the gap, & *U reconnoiter before he exits that gap*.

Entering / Exiting a door: STEP on the lead to hold him short behind U, denying him a peek at any 
possible trigger; open the door, -look & listen-, then if it's clear, lead him out. Takes 15-seconds, saves 
a heckuva lot of *rehearsal of bad habits -* which only make them more habitual, fluent, & faster.

Scenario:
U are going to the vet's; no dogs in the parking-lot, none on the walkway, none visible on the street.
U take him out of his crate [which is on the floor between rear & front seats, to prevent him staring out to hunt
for dogs, bikes, pedestrians, _____ to bark at], leash him while inside the car with door closed, check one last time
for possible triggers, & exit the car.
U walk briskly toward the door [don't dawdle, look at the goal so the dog has a visual clue where we're going - 
this is a team process, if U're staring down at the dog & walking crabwise at a slow stroll, he has no idea where 
the H*** we're headed], get to the door, PAUSE, listen, holding him ==> behind U on a short lead 
[not taut, just short], open the door & peek round it. Who's in the waiting-rm? Are all dogs leashed, all cats 
in their carriers, birds in carriers, no roaming ferrets?... GOOD! Enter, leading him in behind U.
Exiting?... same drill, just from the other side of any solid door U can't see thru.

Carrying him into the waiting-rm if there are other barky dogs is also a reasonable alternative; 
hold him firmly against Ur body, forearm supporting his torso, that hand under his chest, his forelegs 
THRU Ur fingers, so that if he tries to leap down, U can close Ur hand as U feel him move, & clasp them 
before he bails.
Another good one: 
that hand under his chest has the fingers wrapped underhanded round his buckle-collar; No way he can 
leap off by thrusting with his rear legs, & hit the floor. :wink:

A bag to stuff him into in an unavoidable emergency [U're on an elevator, another M-dog enters with their
person, & U must get to the destination...] isn't cheating, it's foresight; pop him in, & turn his BUTT toward the 
other dog, so he can't see Nemesis or stare, triggering a bark-fest or other aggro between them.
Many fabric-bags are stuffable, just wad them into a ziplock, get the air out, & zip it; instant shrink, 
they go anywhere, if U have a barn-coat they might fit in the patch pockets or the deep handwarmers under 
the regular pockets. :thumbup1:

i've already mentioned _Click to Calm_ as an excellent DIY-manual for B-mod;

Some specific tactics include the already-posted *Open-Bar / Closed-Bar* for DS/CC, DeSensitization 
& CounterConditioning; there's also Look at That! & / or Control Unleashed - see UTube for helpful 
videos using both, for reactive-dogs of all kinds.

There's also a Yahoo! list specifically to address aggro in dogs:
agbeh : Aggressive Behaviors in Dogs


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## HeatherandLeonard (Mar 1, 2014)

I have a rehomed patterdale. He is a delight with children and people. We are having some problems with other dogs but this is slowly getting better. With pulling on their lead... Mine does it. A good harness helps we have a chest plate harness which has helped giving me more control also with when he pulls I stop until he comes back to me then he gets a treat and we set off again. It needs to be consistent and you will see an improvement. :biggrin: 


Please stick with it.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

owns the beast said:


> Some quite heated debate going on here!!!
> 
> We had a dog trainer visit us at the house on Sunday and he stayed for a few hours which included a walk with Stanley. He's given us some tips, we just have to follow them and see what happens.
> 
> ...


When we take on a rescue, we have no guarantees. Even the best researched homing could go T*ts up!

I commend you for taking him on and more so for being willing to work through his problems.

You will get there - but it will take time and patience.

I wish you every success!

(But you should have got a lazy lurcher  - just kidding )

In six month's time, you will wonder how things could have changed so much.

Good luck - Keep Calm and Carry On


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

owns the beast said:


> As mentioned in the Introductions section, my partner and I re-homed a 4 year old male Patterdale Terrier Cross at Christmas. He was castrated two weeks ago but we're still having behavioural problems with him. In summary they are....
> 
> 1. Pulling on the lead when he walks
> 
> ...


Sounds like a normal dog to me that hasn't been trained.

I am sure other members will have suggested training classes.

1. He needs to learn to walk nicely on a loose lead not necessarily to heel. This will take time and patience.

2. I would use a treat reward, to manage this behaviour. You will need to be vigilant and look ahead for dogs, cats or people. Make sure they will not be passing you shoulder to shoulder create distance between them and your dog. Then get him to stop and focus on you, using a high value treat (I used small pieces of cheese). Raise the hand with the treat to your cheek and have him focus on your hand/finger (I know it will be the treat he is focusing on, that doesn't matter to me, the outcome is still the same ). If the person, dog or cat passes without him reacting give him lots of praise and give him the treat.

My dog got to the point where he would see another dog and look straight at me for a treat. Again no problem to me he didn't react badly to the other dog.

Dog Training classes will be extremely beneficial in socialising him.

3. No proper advice for this one from me, sorry. My dog is 9 years old and will still jump onto the nearest piece of furniture or if we are on the settee he will jump between us to be included when me and hubby are having a kiss or kiss and cuddle. He's our little lad and is always included, as we call it a group hug. 

4. A dog barking at the door is also normal behaviour, to me. Being giddy when visitors come is imo him saying oh boy attention for me, me, me. My lad is exactly the same. I put his harness and lead on him and also give him time out in a different room. We don't get many visitors so for me once again this isn't a major problem.

I can't emphasise training classes enough.

Another thing to consider is his diet, my dog is a Staffie he is extremely hyperactive but certain dog foods act a bit like E numbers do with some children.

I would advise wet food Naturesdiet or Wainwright and try to avoid Bakers there may be other dry foods to avoid other members will no doubt advise you.

As for nicking two people are you referring to a nip or mouthing. I suspect he is mouthing in his excitement.

*In a nutshell: A good Diet, Plenty of Exercise, Formal Training Classes and lots of patience*


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

owns the beast said:


> I haven't had a dog before although my partner has. The previous owner gave him up for 'health reasons' allegedly. That was already his first re-homing so we are his second. I guess the fault lies with us in not researching the breed thoroughly enough before taking him on


Don't worry about not researching the breed, I researched Staffies and got all the wrong information, ie lock jaw, dog aggressive, can't live with other pets, all the negatives and I still took him on, by eck am I glad I did too. No he wasn't the easiest dog to train, a little git really but I wouldn't swap him for the world. 

You are a member on here now and you will get all the help, advice and support you will need.

All the problems you are experiencing I have covered in my previous post and how I dealt with my dog, others have posted more or less the same thing. Rome wasn't built in a day you have a good 10 years together, plenty of time to train him.

Training is great fun for him and you, he will get treats and lots of attention when he does something right and you will start to feel the benefit too, plus you will meet other people having the same or similar issues (some will have much worse problems and you will look at your little lad and realise, he ain't that bad). :thumbup1:

PS I am the main doggy walker here, cos my lad pulls hubby like nobody's business and hubby can't walk him far because of this (hubby has arthritis). I also hate walking Duke after he has had a walk with hubby because he thinks he can do the same with me, not on his nelly, short lead, a few steps and stop, repeat when necessary and every now and again I change direction. He gets the message eventually.

 This is a dog who has certificates for obedience.   - love him.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Lurcherlad said:


> When we take on a rescue, we have no guarantees. Even the best researched homing could go T*ts up!
> 
> I commend you for taking him on and more so for being willing to work through his problems.
> 
> ...


Have things changed, Ownsthebeast? It's a year now since you posted about your Patterdale.


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