# Reactive dogs, fearful dogs, LAT game



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

As most of you know, Penny is not the bravest dog out there, and she has enough terrier in her that she can be an ass about things she's unsure about.

I caught a good moment today practicing LAT - the "look at that" game from Control Unleashed. We were far enough away that she wasn't super triggered, but interested enough.

You can see how easy LAT is. It doesn't matter if the dog looks at you or the trigger, I reward all of it. Timing can be off too because the goal is that the dog learn that triggers are a cue to reorient to you. If I mark looking at the trigger she still has to turn to me to get rewarded, and if I mark looking at me, that's perfectly fine too because I always want looking at me to be a good thing.

If your dog is too stressed to take treats, that's fine, still mark and offer food (with an open hand or put on the ground where they can sniff and pick it up). If they don't take it it's fine, try to increase distance where the dog can take food, but continue to mark and offer.

This game eventually turns in to an automatic turn to check in with me anytime something surprising or unexpected happens which makes everything else you need to do with reactive and fearful dogs a thousand times easier.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Lovely video. Loki won’t take food unless there is a huge distance and the treat is really good. He does respond well to a toy as a reward and me telling him he’s a good boy if he looks at me.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Lovely video. Loki won't take food unless there is a huge distance and the treat is really good. He does respond well to a toy as a reward and me telling him he's a good boy if he looks at me.


Getting a nervous dog to take food is one of the harder and less discussed issues with dealing with a reactive dog. 
Like you say, so many reactive dogs simply won't eat, but eating is really a huge key to getting them emotionally more stable. Sniffing the food, chewing the food, it's all calming and key to changing that emotional state. 
I feel like there needs to be more emphasis on strategies to get dogs to take treats.

I don't know if you notice it, but several times in that video Penny takes the food but doesn't swallow it until I give another yes and she turns to me and you see her swallowing the last treat she took.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Getting a nervous dog to take food is one of the harder and less discussed issues with dealing with a reactive dog.
> Like you say, so many reactive dogs simply won't eat, but eating is really a huge key to getting them emotionally more stable. Sniffing the food, chewing the food, it's all calming and key to changing that emotional state.
> I feel like there needs to be more emphasis on strategies to get dogs to take treats.
> 
> I don't know if you notice it, but several times in that video Penny takes the food but doesn't swallow it until I give another yes and she turns to me and you see her swallowing the last treat she took.


He's not a massive foodie anyway so it is difficult to get him interested. He's much more toy motivated, but yes your right it isn't discussed much. The amount of trainers who have told me to give him treats. He will take sliced ham or beef, cooked bacon but the distance needs to be right.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Tod loves his tuggy more than food so it’s always the ‘go to’ in extreme situations. I save it for these.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

In another lifetime I'm going to do a workshop on getting fearful and over aroused dogs to take food.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> In another lifetime I'm going to do a workshop on getting fearful and over aroused dogs to take food.


Can you do it in this lifetime please  or a few tips or really holds us back. Not with Sox he'd take a treat anytime anywhere.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Can you do it in this lifetime please  or a few tips or really holds us back. Not with Sox he'd take a treat anytime anywhere.


I'd have to really sit down and think and then organize those thoughts 

So much of it is individual to that dog. Things like how you hold the treat in your hand, how the hand approaches (or doesn't) the dog.
Those first few weeks with Penny was a lot of simply teaching her to take treats from my hand, no matter where I was standing. She didn't like front-on approaches and if I came at her with a treat that way she wouldn't take it.

You know I love Denise Fenzi, and this discussion on 'usable' food drive is really good, but even better, watch the video at the end. 
https://denisefenzi.com/2012/11/do-all-dogs-have-food-drive/
Sometimes you have to get super creative to get dogs to enjoy taking food, and with Penny we did have to do a good bit of experimenting to figure out how to build her food drive. 
She was similar to this dog in that she would take a treat and then quickly move away to eat it at a "safe" distance. I had to make a retreat easy by making sure she had escape routes (I wasn't crowding or putting her in a corner), and hold the food in an open palm so she could grab and run. Small pieces of very soft treats too so she could eat them quickly.

As you can see she's over this now, but in high stress situations *if* she takes food, she still needs an open palm, even if I'm holding her and she's obviously not running anywhere.

But other dogs have different issues. Some dogs learn as puppies that humans yelp when you take food from them and become wary of putting their mouths near your hands then that in turn 'poisons' treat taking for them.

Other dogs have learned that treats are bribes for bad things, you have to be *so* careful even with things like nail trimming using treats because if the experience is bad enough, the dog will associate treats with bad things.
I think this happens more often than we realize with reactive dogs too. Instead of associating the appearance of dogs with the nice treats, they flip that equation and decide that treats mean bad things (scary dogs) are about to happen and therefore treats are bad.

It's actually a fascinating area to me. Dogs need to eat, a dog without food drive would die as a puppy. So presumably all dogs will eat food, but figuring out how to bring out that drive or channel it can be tricky to say the least!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I'd have to really sit down and think and then organize those thoughts
> 
> So much of it is individual to that dog. Things like how you hold the treat in your hand, how the hand approaches (or doesn't) the dog.
> Those first few weeks with Penny was a lot of simply teaching her to take treats from my hand, no matter where I was standing. She didn't like front-on approaches and if I came at her with a treat that way she wouldn't take it.
> ...





O2.0 said:


> I'd have to really sit down and think and then organize those thoughts
> 
> So much of it is individual to that dog. Things like how you hold the treat in your hand, how the hand approaches (or doesn't) the dog.
> Those first few weeks with Penny was a lot of simply teaching her to take treats from my hand, no matter where I was standing. She didn't like front-on approaches and if I came at her with a treat that way she wouldn't take it.
> ...


Interesting I should add he will work well for food at home even kibble as long as his tummy is good. I think those issues definitely didn't help. The timing thing I think your correct. He normally knows when I'm trying to move him on.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I had a great dane who had been running feral in a local state park. The rangers had known about him for months, multiple attempts to catch him, nothing. They finally caught him in a bear trap! 
He was a huge education in food and associations with food. He was starving when we got a hold of him, 40 pounds underweight, and definitely wanted food, but he was extremely wary of offered food, had serious food guarding issues, and it took me over a year to get him to take food outside the house. 
Complicated and fascinating, but something I really enjoy riddling out


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I had a great dane who had been running feral in a local state park. The rangers had known about him for months, multiple attempts to catch him, nothing. They finally caught him in a bear trap!
> He was a huge education in food and associations with food. He was starving when we got a hold of him, 40 pounds underweight, and definitely wanted food, but he was extremely wary of offered food, had serious food guarding issues, and it took me over a year to get him to take food outside the house.
> Complicated and fascinating, but something I really enjoy riddling out


Loki has no issues in the house will take food readily not guarding. Even if he's excited/ happy/ relaxed outside he's not interested. I've tried food in the secure field he'd rather play. If I take the clicker to a really quite location he will take highly motivating food.

At home he enjoys training or so it seems. I've not really thought about it to much just gave up and use toys. I should really take both. I look like a bloody carrier donkey when I'm out with Loki. I would be interested in strategies.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I've tried food in the secure field he'd rather play. If I take the clicker to a really quite location he will take highly motivating food.


Have you tried clicker training in the secure field? 
What kind of games does he like? And do they involve you?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Have you tried clicker training in the secure field?
> What kind of games does he like? And do they involve you?


I haven't no. He likes to play tug at the field, he loves ball so does Sox but I do have to limit it or they would play for ages. He likes playing bity face with Sox but if I hide they come running to find me.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Just to add despite his crappy recall in the secure woods or field they don’t leave me. I can’t just sit on the bench whilst they play because they would just stand in front of me. Same in the garden I can’t just chuck them out or sit and read he always wants to interact (love him) On walks he wouldn’t leave me until we saw something then he loses his boxer mind.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I haven't no. He likes to play tug at the field, he loves ball so does Sox but I do have to limit it or they would play for ages. He likes playing bity face with Sox but if I hide they come running to find me.


Okay if he loves ball, here's something you can try.
Have the ball, offer a treat, if he takes the treat, good boy, throw the ball.
It might not work at first, he might be too excited by the ball so you may need to put it behind your back. But offer the treat, open palm, if he takes it, immediately throw the ball, even if he spits the treat out, you can add that criteria later.
Basically what you're doing is building the value for the treat - treats = play and play already has high value and that value will transfer to the treat.
You're also creating an association with treats - treats = fun and happy feelings.

Another option - does he like catching the ball if you throw it? Try that with treats, throw the treat up for him to catch. Make a game of it, if he catches it woo hoo, good boy and do the happy dance with him, if he doesn't catch it, have a game of finding it together in the grass.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Okay if he loves ball, here's something you can try.
> Have the ball, offer a treat, if he takes the treat, good boy, throw the ball.
> It might not work at first, he might be too excited by the ball so you may need to put it behind your back. But offer the treat, open palm, if he takes it, immediately throw the ball, even if he spits the treat out, you can add that criteria later.
> Basically what you're doing is building the value for the treat - treats = play and play already has high value and that value will transfer to the treat.
> ...


Yes he always catches the ball that's a good idea to throw treats. He loves find it in the garden and out and about if it's cold cuts.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Whisp has got a pretty solid "look at me" as long as the trigger is not too close.

It's a good way of distracting her on road walks when you have to walk past a dog on the other side of the road, along as you get there in time. Too close and she is totally gone until the dog is out of sight or at a "safe" distance. I would love to get it on camera one day so you could critique.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Whisp has got a pretty solid "look at me" as long as the trigger is not too close.
> 
> It's a good way of distracting her on road walks when you have to walk past a dog on the other side of the road, along as you get there in time. Too close and she is totally gone until the dog is out of sight or at a "safe" distance. I would love to get it on camera one day so you could critique.


I can only imagine the comments if me and loki were on camera


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> Whisp has got a pretty solid "look at me" as long as the trigger is not too close.
> 
> It's a good way of distracting her on road walks when you have to walk past a dog on the other side of the road, along as you get there in time. Too close and she is totally gone until the dog is out of sight or at a "safe" distance. I would love to get it on camera one day so you could critique.


Ha ha! The only reason I have this videoed is because I already had the phone out trying to catch her swimming, and we were at a distance and I wasn't having to do any damage control. Normally I jump in to training/managing and don't have time (nor does it occur to me) to video it.

At the risk of ruffling feathers because I know it's popular, I'm not a fan of watch me for dogs who are genuinely afraid of the trigger. 
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE watch me, I think eye contact is one of the best things in the world to teach your dog, and sustained eye contact even better, but.... 
Asking an already worried dog to not look at the scary thing is a really big ask. And can even lead to that reluctance to take treats I was talking about. Because now the dog is worried about the scary thing and can't look and see what the scary thing is doing and there's treats involved and the dog doesn't feel emotionally right about any of it, and the treats get a negative emotional connection too.

Now, if it's working great for you, awesome! She may be less fearful than you think and more anxious/agitated. Often anxious dogs do much better having something to *do* instead of react, particularly if you turn it in to a predictable pattern of behaviors. Then the dog builds confidence knowing this happens then this happens then this happens. It's very soothing to know exactly what to expect in what order. Leslie McDevitt talks about this too in a lot of her Control Unleashed stuff.

Oh @Boxer123 speaking of Control Unleashed, that's another food drive trick you can try. Drop a treat (make sure Loki sees you drop the treat) let him snarf it up, and as soon as he lifts his head back up to look at you, click that and drop another treat. It's a simple reorienting game but in Loki's case, because he's so bonded to you anyway, you're clicking and rewarding him for something he will already do happily, thus making food a happy thing, thus building drive and desire for that food


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Ha ha! The only reason I have this videoed is because I already had the phone out trying to catch her swimming, and we were at a distance and I wasn't having to do any damage control. Normally I jump in to training/managing and don't have time (nor does it occur to me) to video it.
> 
> At the risk of ruffling feathers because I know it's popular, I'm not a fan of watch me for dogs who are genuinely afraid of the trigger.
> Don't get me wrong, I LOVE watch me, I think eye contact is one of the best things in the world to teach your dog, and sustained eye contact even better, but....
> ...


Wr will try that this week as I have ham in the fridge for training.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

When I applied to go on the reactive rovers training course they asked for a video of a typical walk (or excerpts of a walk). I got my mum to video afew walks till we got a bit that showed how Whisp reacted to a dog and how we were dealing with it.
When I watched it back I was surprised at how short it was, when you are holding the lead of a reacting dog everything seems chaotic, loud and like it's going on way to long.

On one day they asked us again to film your dog and try to spot all the tiny signals your dog gives off at different times. It helped be more in tune with whisp and all the little calming signals she gives at the sight of an unknown dog and when to turn around before she goes over her threshold. It was very interesting.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> When I applied to go on the reactive rovers training course they asked for a video of a typical walk (or excerpts of a walk). I got my mum to video afew walks till we got a bit that showed how Whisp reacted to a dog and how we were dealing with it.
> When I watched it back I was surprised at how short it was, when you are holding the lead of a reacting dog everything seems chaotic, loud and like it's going on way to long.
> 
> On one day they asked us again to film your dog and try to spot all the tiny signals your dog gives off at different times. It helped be more in tune with whisp and all the little calming signals she gives at the sight of an unknown dog and when to turn around before she goes over her threshold. It was very interesting.


Feels like forever doesn't it when it happens.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> Feels like forever doesn't it when it happens.


Yeah, and that everyone is staring at you.
This forum has helped me be in the mindset of not (or trying not) to be bothered at what people think of me and my dog. I know how to manage these situations so no-one gets hurt and that's all that matters. The safety and security of my dog.

Doesn't mean I don't get upset by it sometimes though.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Yeah, and that everyone is staring at you.
> This forum has helped me be in the mindset of not (or trying not) to be bothered at what people think of me and my dog. I know how to manage these situations so no-one gets hurt and that's all that matters. The safety and security of my dog.
> 
> Doesn't mean I don't get upset by it sometimes though.


I get that I used to always apologise but that made it worse because we were hanging around now I just completely ignore the trigger and focus on Loki. I do get upset because I know he's such a sweet lovely boy.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> Just to add despite his crappy recall in the secure woods or field they don't leave me. I can't just sit on the bench whilst they play because they would just stand in front of me. Same in the garden I can't just chuck them out or sit and read he always wants to interact (love him) On walks he wouldn't leave me until we saw something then he loses his boxer mind.


I've also got two that stick to me like glue. Can't ever seem to get rid of them - not that I want to! It has its benefits though because on the times they've gone AWOL it's never been far from home and they've both come back when called.

One of the reasons I do a lot of city training is because apart from the Viszla mob and a few neighbours we very rarely meet anything apart from loads of tractors. In the city we see lots of dogs and experience new scary noises which we don't at home. Usually the reaction from Grisha is to stand and stare at whatever and it takes some time to chivvy him on. Gwylim bless him scuttles to my side, making twittering noises, which he does when he's anxious. On the whole though they're very good boys!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

So today went well. Went out on the lunch walk to the sports field across the road which is always quiet Loki likes going there for sniffs at lunch. I had beef and ham and my clicker. There was a workman working in the cricket hall. I threw food for him to snuffle. Which he did looked at workman, then me so I clicked every time he looked at me and dropped food.

Then he decided he liked the ham so gave me sits without me asking.

I guess we just need to practice everyday eating outside ?

We met two elderly neighbours and neither got told off which was good. We sat on the grass together and had a cuddle.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I guess we just need to practice everyday eating outside ?


Oh yay Loki!!
Yes, practice, practice, practice eating outside, but for now ONLY in low stress environments where he's taking food happily and excited to work. 
Try the tossing too


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Oh yay Loki!!
> Yes, practice, practice, practice eating outside, but for now ONLY in low stress environments where he's taking food happily and excited to work.
> Try the tossing too


I kind of gave up as it wasn't working so will make sure I have toys and food.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Then he decided he liked the ham so gave me sits without me asking.


Does Loki like freeze dried liver, lamb or heart? 
What about soft treats like the Zukes brand, the salmon ones stink to high heaven and most dogs love them. I see they have Zukes on the UK amazon site - you want the mini naturals. They're perfect size for what you're doing. (For Penny I have to cut them in halves then quarters  )

I'm just thinking if you're going to be practicing a lot getting him to eat outside, too much lunch meat may upset his tummy. 
Granted too much organ meat can give him loose poo, too but you could mix it up with the Zukes...

The Dragonfly Products brand looks good too, I can't tell if they're soft though - soft treats are stinkier and more chompable, most dogs prefer soft treats for fast treat delivery things like what you'll be doing.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Does Loki like freeze dried liver, lamb or heart?
> What about soft treats like the Zukes brand, the salmon ones stink to high heaven and most dogs love them. I see they have Zukes on the UK amazon site - you want the mini naturals. They're perfect size for what you're doing. (For Penny I have to cut them in halves then quarters  )
> 
> I'm just thinking if you're going to be practicing a lot getting him to eat outside, too much lunch meat may upset his tummy.
> ...


He doesn't really like freeze dried to much hard work. He much prefers softer treats. He may take them if there are few distractions.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> He doesn't really like freeze dried to much hard work. He much prefers softer treats. He may take them if there are few distractions.


Might be worth trying the Zukes Mini Naturals, salmon flavor


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Might be worth trying the Zukes Mini Naturals, salmon flavor


He quite likes cheap bakers treats as well but they play havoc with his butt.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> He quite likes cheap bakers treats as well but they play havoc with his butt.


Zukes are pretty decent quality. 
The Dragonfly ones look even better, but I can't tell if they're soft.

Penny goes nuts for a similar type treat (as the dragonfly) duck and sweet potato, she loves them. String cheese is another staple for us too.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Another positive session we had some country hunter treats arrive so took them out. He took a couple just walking down the road. We got to the field and my neighbour was there with her dogs but way over the other side.

Loki clocked them (he's not friends with these two does react to them) so I redirected with his squeaky ball. He sat to watch them then moved on. Looked again so I dropped some treats to see what he'd do and he snuffled them up and we were able to continue with ball not worried about the dogs. When they went we played some hidy canes with treats in grass.

He also took a few treats walking past a man with his hand down a drain. Overall good boy.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 473708
> Another positive session we had some country hunter treats arrive so took them out. He took a couple just walking down the road. We got to the field and my neighbour was there with her dogs but way over the other side.
> 
> Loki clocked them (he's not friends with these two does react to them) so I redirected with his squeaky ball. He sat to watch them then moved on. Looked again so I dropped some treats to see what he'd do and he snuffled them up and we were able to continue with ball not worried about the dogs. When they went we played some hidy canes with treats in grass.
> ...


Wonderful! 
If he will do the treat scatter, that may be your key right there. 
Have you looked at all the work Denise Fenzi has done with treat scatter and her loonie teenager?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Wonderful!
> If he will do the treat scatter, that may be your key right there.
> Have you looked at all the work Denise Fenzi has done with treat scatter and her loonie teenager?


I'm not sure I have will check it out. This is dependent on distance. If I have limited distance and he is reacting what is the best approach here ? Try treats ? Or just get out ? Oh check out my new coat .


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

Nothing helpful to add in terms of training but I love the hi vis!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

edinoodle said:


> Nothing helpful to add in terms of training but I love the hi vis!


I doubt it will work but hopefully wilt suitably embarrass people. I'm also hoping it will stop people trying to talk to us or making funny noises at loki. Sometimes I get him halfway past someone then they make a comment or click at him and he reacts.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 473722
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I have will check it out. This is dependent on distance. If I have limited distance and he is reacting what is the best approach here ? Try treats ? Or just get out ? Oh check out my new coat .


The more you practice taking treats, the better he will be at taking them in general, and sniffing, taking, and eating food does affect the subconscious brain and can help him relax even if it feels like you're 'rewarding' reactive behavior, really what you're doing when you feed a dog who is reacting is classical conditioning which will reduce the reactive behavior. Essentially because you can't reward/reinforce and emotion, and dogs who are in the middle of a meltdown are all emotion, no learning brain engaged.

As for the best approach, I'd say both. Ust the treats to create distance and help you get out of there. If it's on the lower end of losing it and he can still somewhat function you could try a touch away from the trigger, reward with food and continue moving away. If you need a hiding spot, move him in to a treat scatter in that hiding spot, that sort of thing. Does it make sense?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> The more you practice taking treats, the better he will be at taking them in general, and sniffing, taking, and eating food does affect the subconscious brain and can help him relax even if it feels like you're 'rewarding' reactive behavior, really what you're doing when you feed a dog who is reacting is classical conditioning which will reduce the reactive behavior. Essentially because you can't reward/reinforce and emotion, and dogs who are in the middle of a meltdown are all emotion, no learning brain engaged.
> 
> As for the best approach, I'd say both. Ust the treats to create distance and help you get out of there. If it's on the lower end of losing it and he can still somewhat function you could try a touch away from the trigger, reward with food and continue moving away. If you need a hiding spot, move him in to a treat scatter in that hiding spot, that sort of thing. Does it make sense?


It does make sense yes that's really helpful. I'm feeling like we are definitely making progress recently. His little boxer brain may be growing up.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> I doubt it will work but hopefully wilt suitably embarrass people. I'm also hoping it will stop people trying to talk to us or making funny noises at loki. Sometimes I get him halfway past someone then they make a comment or click at him and he reacts.


Why do people do that?! It happens to me too, I'll be trying to keep Brams attention on me but people will do anything to get her attention instead! It's frustrating! If it works let me know!

@O2.0 I've just realised that I'm supposed to be working on the "Look at that" game as part of some focus classes we're doing, I was ill so missed the last class and was just catching up on some reading. Do you wait until your dog is looking at the distraction and then mark and reward? And do you start with things far away enough that the dog isn't too fussed by? Bram's nemesis is other dogs, birds and young children playing. She just gets overexcited and so maintaining focus is hard! I feel like I might end up rewarding her for being frustrated that she can't get to the dog/birds/super exciting thing that isn't me!

editing because I didn't realise your video had sound - that made things clearer! sorry


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

edinoodle said:


> Why do people do that?! It happens to me too, I'll be trying to keep Brams attention on me but people will do anything to get her attention instead! It's frustrating! If it works let me know!
> 
> @O2.0 I've just realised that I'm supposed to be working on the "Look at that" game as part of some focus classes we're doing, I was ill so missed the last class and was just catching up on some reading. Do you wait until your dog is looking at the distraction and then mark and reward? And do you start with things far away enough that the dog isn't too fussed by? Bram's nemesis is other dogs, birds and young children playing. She just gets overexcited and so maintaining focus is hard! I feel like I might end up rewarding her for being frustrated that she can't get to the dog/birds/super exciting thing that isn't me!


I had a wife tell her husband off for doing it. I had loki in a sit, wife passed so did children the husband walked past and clicked at him and loki barked.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

edinoodle said:


> Why do people do that?! It happens to me too, I'll be trying to keep Brams attention on me but people will do anything to get her attention instead! It's frustrating! If it works let me know!
> 
> @O2.0 I've just realised that I'm supposed to be working on the "Look at that" game as part of some focus classes we're doing, I was ill so missed the last class and was just catching up on some reading. Do you wait until your dog is looking at the distraction and then mark and reward? And do you start with things far away enough that the dog isn't too fussed by? Bram's nemesis is other dogs, birds and young children playing. She just gets overexcited and so maintaining focus is hard! I feel like I might end up rewarding her for being frustrated that she can't get to the dog/birds/super exciting thing that isn't me!
> 
> editing because I didn't realise your video had sound - that made things clearer! sorry


You won't reward the frustration I promise  
Frustration is an emotion, and feeding with work on the unconscious nervous system to help ease that frustration. 
I try to think in terms of voluntary or not voluntary - is what is happening with the dog voluntary? Are they choosing to do this? Most emotional reactions are not a voluntary choice, the dog feels the emotion and reacts. There is not a lot of voluntary stuff going on there. Feeding at this point - if the dog will eat, activates involuntary parts of the brain that actually help soothe the dog.

Now it's worth paying attention to the dog because as the reaction lessens you're moving in to voluntary behaviors and now you can inadvertently reinforce things you don't want, but that's also easy enough to fix.

This is one of the things that's so good about LAT. You click for looking at the trigger, but very soon the dog anticipates the treat and turns to look at you to get it, so you see exactly what Penny is doing - the "yes" results in her head turning to me. This is both not reacting and voluntary behavior on her part that I can now reward. 
Eventually what this turns in to is the dog sees a trigger, doesn't react, and instead turns to you, and from here you can do all sorts of beneficial things.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> You won't reward the frustration I promise
> Frustration is an emotion, and feeding with work on the unconscious nervous system to help ease that frustration.
> I try to think in terms of voluntary or not voluntary - is what is happening with the dog voluntary? Are they choosing to do this? Most emotional reactions are not a voluntary choice, the dog feels the emotion and reacts. There is not a lot of voluntary stuff going on there. Feeding at this point - if the dog will eat, activates involuntary parts of the brain that actually help soothe the dog.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining! That makes so much sense, I like and understand the idea of what is voluntary or not voluntary. I feel like that will help a lot in my understanding of what is going on when Bram is distracted by something. I'm looking forward to trying this on our morning walk now that I understand it!

In terms of how to actually do it I have a couple of questions, hope you don't mind! If Bramble sees a distraction do I just wait for her to turn and look at me? Depending on the distance of that distraction I could see the waiting become frustrating for her and then it could be a catch 22 situation? Also if she does look at me, gets reinforced, looks back, then looks back at me etc - at what point do I move on? At the moment we usually ask Bramble to do something she likes when there is a distraction, e.g. middle, or side, but that's just distracting her from the distraction so not actually helping


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

No I don't mind at all! This is one of my favorite areas to work with 



edinoodle said:


> If Bramble sees a distraction do I just wait for her to turn and look at me?


For LAT? No. LAT is literally, Look at the distraction. You say "ooh look" click, and reward looking. The genius is that the dog is going to look anyway, and looking is not really a problem, it's the meltdown that happens after the dog looks. So by turning the glance at a distraction in to a positive event that the dog gets rewarded for and the owner doesn't get frustrated with, you get rid of a heck of a lot of baggage. So there's that.

Two, by putting a behavior on cue you gain control over it. 
Ideally you start with something not very triggering. In CU classes I've taken, the instructor uses a wind-up toy or one of those talking stuffed toys. 
Initially the instructor just presents the toy, you say "look" or whatever your cue is going to be - use something that comes naturally to you, I tend to say "lookit or look" some owners say "what's that?". Click and reward looking at the new thing. Now you are able to tell the dog to do something he's going to do anyway, but the difference is, he knows there's a reward coming for doing the behavior which changes the whole feel of the distraction, for you and for him.

In non set up situations you can simply click and reward looking even if you haven't specifically cued it. I would still have a conversation with the dog, "good look" *click* reward. "Yes, that's an interesting biker isn't it?" *click* reward. "Look at the biker" *click* reward. 
With enough repetitions the dog will anticipate that there is a reward coming after he looks at any trigger and will likely do a quick glance and then look at you expecting a treat.

With even more repetitions this turns in to a dog who sees a trigger, and is able to go through the mental processing of "oh, interesting, WAIT, I know what happens next!" and turns to you for a treat. Now the trigger is truly counter conditioned and you have a dog who is offering voluntary behavior. And that is when it really gets great 



edinoodle said:


> Also if she does look at me, gets reinforced, looks back, then looks back at me etc - at what point do I move on? At the moment we usually ask Bramble to do something she likes when there is a distraction, e.g. middle, or side, but that's just distracting her from the distraction so not actually helping


Yes, I like actually looking at the trigger for exactly this reason, the dog is learning to cope instead of being dependent on you to distract him. 
I move on when the dog is able to. That's something you get a feel for as you work with your dog. 
If you notice in the video I posted in the OP, the difference in her intensity of focus on the trigger at the start vs. about 40 seconds in, you can see a shift in how she's more able to hold eye contact with me, she's noticing other things around her again, she's able to be more clear headed. So we move on.

If you try to move on and the dog can't it's okay to work a little longer. If you absolutely have to move you can do that too. You can do things like toss the treats in the direction you want to go and then happy her up and move on from there.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Do you mind if I jump in on this thread @O2.0 ?

I think that I use a mix mash of LAT and engage/disengage (I'm pretty certain that they are both very similar, we just don't cue the "look" in the engage/disengage stuff) and whilst Thai is pretty awesome around dogs these days there is one or two that he really struggles to control himself around...one of those is a male spanner on a flexi...this dog has never done anything!
I spotted said dog on our walk so started to record. I can share the clip if it is wanted


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> Do you mind if I jump in on this thread @O2.0 ?
> 
> I think that I use a mix mash of LAT and engage/disengage (I'm pretty certain that they are both very similar, we just don't cue the "look" in the engage/disengage stuff) and whilst Thai is pretty awesome around dogs these days there is one or two that he really struggles to control himself around...one of those is a male spanner on a flexi...this dog has never done anything!
> I spotted said dog on our walk so started to record. I can share the clip if it is wanted


That would be great thank you.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Ps Loki says they don’t have to have done something sometimes it’s just the cut of their jib.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> Ps Loki says they don't have to have done something sometimes it's just the cut of their jib.


Gwylim says it's only if they're small black and hairy like him.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> Ps Loki says they don't have to have done something sometimes it's just the cut of their jib.


-nods knowingly-
The dog is male so he does have that against him :Hilarious

This isn't the best clip because I am keeping an eye to make sure that we don't get in anyones way...and I've never been able to work out the carrying the phone whilst feeding/throwing food while making sure that I am filming the right thing :Banghead
Anyway here it is - I'm clicking with my tongue because I don't have a clicker with me. 





Hopefully you can see how he starts by fixing his focus (if we were closer, and I let him stare for longer he would kick off) but by the end of the clip he is starting to offer the head turn. You'll notice that I mix up the reward delivery as well to keep things interesting


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Do you mind if I jump in on this thread @O2.0 ?


Please do!!

Yesterday Penny came to a little outdoor ice cream place with us, that's right next to the railroad tracks, and wouldn't you know, a train came by. I don't think she has ever experienced a train and she had a complete meltdown that my daughter caught on video. It's actually kind of sad to watch how terrified she is, but what we didn't get was how quickly she recovered afterwards. 
I don't know it it's worth sharing, but it's a good example of when you would definitely not bother with treats, and just try to hold the dog together until the trigger passes.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> -nods knowingly-
> The dog is male so he does have that against him :Hilarious
> 
> This isn't the best clip because I am keeping an eye to make sure that we don't get in anyones way...and I've never been able to work out the carrying the phone whilst feeding/throwing food while making sure that I am filming the right thing :Banghead
> ...


That was interesting I think my timing is often off because like you said it's hard to hold everything and the dog. That's about the distance loki can cope with. If it was an arch rival he might still bark.


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## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

@O2.0 Thank you so much! The confusion comes from something I was reading which says LAT was

"Dog looks at distraction
Dog looks at you
Click or Yes
Reinforcement"

But I think thats once the positive association has already been made! Anyway thank you for being patient and explaining again, I'll stick to reading whats on this thread until I understand and have the basics down. Might try and take a video myself later today but I've been attempting to video some scent work training and keep cutting Bramble out by accident which defeats the purpose


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Today’s session was a mix of successful and not. Lunchtimes we normally go to the sports field and loki likes to walk all around for a sniff. Today we got part way around when my neighbour came out his garden with his french bulldog to play football. Now this little dog is quite good but I worried if we went any further it would blow recall. It’s only young. 

So I turned back and at this point loki started barking. It’s almost like he thinks, ‘hooman turning around it must be scary I better bark’ We got even further away at he sat to look so we practiced a bit of LAT I sprinkle some treats and he actually ate them which is amazing. 

As we were walking down the road some dopey turnip had her dog in the front seat which was going hammer and tong barking at loki. She didn’t do anything until loki tried to launch into her car at which point she asked fluffy to sit down.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Please do!!
> 
> Yesterday Penny came to a little outdoor ice cream place with us, that's right next to the railroad tracks, and wouldn't you know, a train came by. I don't think she has ever experienced a train and she had a complete meltdown that my daughter caught on video. It's actually kind of sad to watch how terrified she is, but what we didn't get was how quickly she recovered afterwards.
> I don't know it it's worth sharing, but it's a good example of when you would definitely not bother with treats, and just try to hold the dog together until the trigger passes.


That happened to Gwylim the first time we walked through the city centre and a tram came by. Strange because at home he's quite used to tractors and heavy farming machinery lumbering past only a couple of feet from where we're standing on the grass verge.

I think the difference was that the trams are almost silent until they're just about on top of you, and this one was coming from behind us. What I now do is to try and warn him beforehand by telling him "car" just as I do when we're walking in the village.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

@Boxer123 
Do you say anything when you scatter treats? Or do you just scatter them in front of him?

I ask because I have found that adding a happy cue as you scatter the food (I just use "scatter" which is the same as Denise Fenzi, I think watching her videos will help anyone struggling with an over aroused dog)) really helps to build the sniffing behaviour, if this is practiced enough in low/medium level distractions I find it helps to "switch" them from staring to sniffing when the distractions become greater.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> @Boxer123
> Do you say anything when you scatter treats? Or do you just scatter them in front of him?
> 
> I ask because I have found that adding a happy cue as you scatter the food (I just use "scatter" which is the same as Denise Fenzi, I think watching her videos will help anyone struggling with an over aroused dog)) really helps to build the sniffing behaviour, if this is practiced enough in low/medium level distractions I find it helps to "switch" them from staring to sniffing when the distractions become greater.


We use 'find it' also for in the garden when I scatter or hide stuff don't know if we need a different word when out ?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

edinoodle said:


> @O2.0 Thank you so much! The confusion comes from something I was reading which says LAT was
> 
> "Dog looks at distraction
> Dog looks at you
> ...


Honestly with LAT it doesn't matter that much  
The goal of LAT is two-fold. One, using food to calm the dog in the face of a trigger, and two reframe the trigger from being a reason to react to being a reason to re-orient back to you.

I'm about to get really geeky for a minute, so feel free to tune this part out  
LAT is a really ingenious way of using both classical and operant conditioning. Classical conditioning is subconscious - it's that involuntary stuff, dogs drooling at a sound indicating food was forthcoming. The CC part of LAT is feeding in the presence of the trigger. This in turn _counter_ conditions the trigger from causing fear, to causing anticipation of food.

The operant conditioning part of LAT is teaching the dog to reorient to you in the presence of a trigger. This part is voluntary. The dog chooses to turn to you in the presence of something they find triggering. They have to notice the trigger, and then choose in their thinking brain to turn to you for the treat. 
However the dog can't get to his thinking brain, the voluntary brain until the trigger is counter conditioned enough that he *can* think in it's presence. So the food works first to classically condition a calmer response to the trigger and then to reinforce an operantly conditioned behavior (looking back at you).

Okay now you can tune back in  
So basically as long as the dog is understanding that scary things = food from you, you will eventually get to a voluntary behavior to turn to you for a reward. I've often laughed at my dogs in public when they put up with random human weirdness, handle it well, and then turn to me as if to say "okay, now pay up." Because they know that humans being weird results in payment from me 

@Boxer123 
Denise Fenzi posted this today and it shows several techniques for treat delivery. 
I don't know if you can hear, but she says "scatter" when she wants him to use his nose and find treats, and while he's finding she may drop some more to keep him busy.

She also uses a treat toss technique. Bates used to absolutely LOVE catching treats, I could get him to ignore pretty much anything in favor of leaping to catch a treat - this is something you teach over time, it took us both a lot of practice to get good at it 

Finally at the end she does what I call 'rapid fire' treats, she calls it consistent feeding, but it's basically keeping him on the food for the duration of the bikes passing - and it was a lot!!

Notice also how she positions herself between him and the trigger making a visual barrier if need be.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> So I turned back and at this point loki started barking. It's almost like he thinks, 'hooman turning around it must be scary I better bark' We got even further away at he sat to look so we practiced a bit of LAT I sprinkle some treats and he actually ate them which is amazing.


Oh Loki you clever boy you! Yay for eating treats! That really is going to make your life easier 



Magyarmum said:


> I think the difference was that the trams are almost silent until they're just about on top of you,


Oh this was a long, heavy freight train that rattles the ground as it goes by. She managed a few warning whistles but when the main whistle blew she lost it. 





But she really did recover well and today she came to practice with me, about 30 kids, all running LOL. She did great though pottered about, visited with kids, was happy to take treats. I was really proud of her. Compared to where she was even 6 months ago, this is awesome 

Tail down but her eyes are soft









Taking treats:

















Chilling


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Oh Loki you clever boy you! Yay for eating treats! That really is going to make your life easier
> 
> Oh this was a long, heavy freight train that rattles the ground as it goes by. She managed a few warning whistles but when the main whistle blew she lost it.
> 
> ...


That it REALLY scary, poor girl, She did exceptionally well to recover so quickly. The Schnauzer boys are jealous they say they'd love all that attention from all those kids.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Honestly with LAT it doesn't matter that much
> The goal of LAT is two-fold. One, using food to calm the dog in the face of a trigger, and two reframe the trigger from being a reason to react to being a reason to re-orient back to you.
> 
> I'm about to get really geeky for a minute, so feel free to tune this part out
> ...


That was really helpful thank you loving this thread. And poor Penny such scary train.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> That it REALLY scary, poor girl, She did exceptionally well to recover so quickly. The Schnauzer boys are jealous they say they'd love all that attention from all those kids.


Oh dear I didn't realize the thumbnail was that bad haha! 
Yes, she hasn't freaked that badly in a long time, but that train was a lot to cope with!

Penny does really well with children, I think she has no history there so it has been easy to convince her they're okay. She had a great morning


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Oh dear I didn't realize the thumbnail was that bad haha!
> Yes, she hasn't freaked that badly in a long time, but that train was a lot to cope with!
> 
> Penny does really well with children, I think she has no history there so it has been easy to convince her they're okay. She had a great morning


Your freight trains seem to do a lot more hooting and whistling than ours when announcing their arrival. I'd be scared of all that noise as well.

I was at our local train station a couple of weeks ago when a freight train went by and it was quiet by comparison. We have a level crossing in the middle of our local town and my dogs have seen passing trains several times but I can't recall any that made all that noise.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I've been reading through the posts and watching the videos and on my walks this week I've noticed I think I'm doing something similar to LAT.

When I notice Whisp looking at a dog in the distance I say "good" and when she looks at me for a treat I give her one. Is this the same thing ?

The only thing is if the dogs have to pass us I step to the side and switch to "look at me" so she doesn't have the chance to react when the dog is closer. Saves us much embarrassment.

I will try to get a video some time if it's possible.


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## Rottsmum (Aug 26, 2011)

The train whistle thing reminds me of when I was walking Mylo one afternoon about a year ago and a fire engine came bombing down the road, all lights flashing and sirens blaring. I didn't think anything of it at first because when he was a pup he used to come to work with me every day and there were always police cars and ambulances and the like going past so he'd heard sirens loads of times, right? WRONG!! 

So apparently a fire engine siren is completely different to any other type of siren and Mylo LOST HIS MIND!! He absolutely freaked out and jumped all 40kg of him straight off the ground and into my arms (clearly still believing he was a tiny pupper) whilst yowling at the top of lungs, knock me flat on my @rse with a Rottie sat on top of me screaming! About four people walking by nigh on died laughing and I had to gather what was left of my dignity and my poor, sore backside and drag a now gibbering wreck of a Mylo back home. Probs about the most embarassing moment i've had with him when out and about! :Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> When I notice Whisp looking at a dog in the distance I say "good" and when she looks at me for a treat I give her one. Is this the same thing ?


Yes, that's essentially LAT 



Beth78 said:


> The only thing is if the dogs have to pass us I step to the side and switch to "look at me" so she doesn't have the chance to react when the dog is closer. Saves us much embarrassment.


Keeping her looking at you is a good management strategy - if she can do it, not all dogs can, it's too big of an ask if the thing is really scary. Imagine there is a snake on the path and I ask you not to look at the snake as we walk by. I don't know about you, but I'm looking at the snake, and I don't even mind snakes!

The other issue with "watch me" and this is just for you to decide, is that the dog is not learning to manage their emotions themselves, they're dependent on a cue and a behavior that you decide on. I want my dogs to be able to handle things on their own - eventually. For example right now Penny is about 50% capable of dealing with normal town thing on her own, the other 50% of the time I have to step in and manage her behavior and help her regulate emotions (reactions). But the goal is eventually for her to be able to walk about a normal busy town and not need any guidance from me other than which way we're going or periodic check-ins.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Yes, that's essentially LAT
> 
> Keeping her looking at you is a good management strategy - if she can do it, not all dogs can, it's too big of an ask if the thing is really scary. Imagine there is a snake on the path and I ask you not to look at the snake as we walk by. I don't know about you, but I'm looking at the snake, and I don't even mind snakes!
> 
> The other issue with "watch me" and this is just for you to decide, is that the dog is not learning to manage their emotions themselves, they're dependent on a cue and a behavior that you decide on. I want my dogs to be able to handle things on their own - eventually. For example right now Penny is about 50% capable of dealing with normal town thing on her own, the other 50% of the time I have to step in and manage her behavior and help her regulate emotions (reactions). But the goal is eventually for her to be able to walk about a normal busy town and not need any guidance from me other than which way we're going or periodic check-ins.


I have to say watch me worked great with Sox but not for Loki who has to know where that scary thing is. Sox was far less reactive though Loki's explosions are spectacular in comparison.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Well today loki took LAT to a new level. By refusing to stop looking. We walked through the corn field and then to the sports field.  Two teenage lads were playing football. We played LAT and scatter then Loki sat and refused to move. He was relaxed watching them he probably wanted their football. In the end I had to bribe him out with treats as there is only so long you can sit watching teenage boys before you get arrested.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> The other issue with "watch me" and this is just for you to decide, is that the dog is not learning to manage their emotions themselves,


Yeah that makes sense, I generally only use it if a dog is very close or passing us as in these situations if Whisp wasn't looking at me/distracted she would certainly be staring/lunging/barking.

I guess it's just knowing your dog and what they can deal with, we've definitely decreased the distance over the years of training.

I count myself lucky that Whisp is so food focused, still there are times where she is over threshold and won't take anything. What do you do in those situations ?


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Well today loki took LAT to a new level. By refusing to stop looking. We walked through the corn field and then to the sports field. Two teenage lads were playing football. We played LAT and scatter then Loki sat and refused to move. He was relaxed watching them he probably wanted their football. In the end I had to bribe him out with treats as there is only so long you can sit watching teenage boys before you get arrested.


Dylan does this too, he almost goes into a trance. I can usually distract him with "find the treat" if it goes on too long. He can fix on random people as well as dogs, I think they find his stare a bit unnerving at times! I have found some new sausage treats he goes mad for which help. Mind you they produce rather noxious odours from his back end.......


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Dylan does this too, he almost goes into a trance. 4I can usually distract him with "find the treat" if it goes on too long. He can fix on random people as well as dogs, I think they find his stare a bit unnerving at times! I have found some new sausage treats he goes mad for which help. Mind you they produce rather noxious odours from his back end.......


Exactly I don't mind him having a little look but I think we would still be there now if I'd let him.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Dylan is scared of some dogs and excited by others, is the method still the same for both types of reactivity? I think what I'm wanting from him eventually is just to be able to acknowledge there's a dog over there, and realise that he doesn't have to bother about it!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Dylan is scared of some dogs and excited by others, is the method still the same for both types of reactivity? I think what I'm wanting from him eventually is just to be able to acknowledge there's a dog over there, and realise that he doesn't have to bother about it!


Good question loki reacts differently. This morning he barked at a collie but was wagging his tail and doing his excitement boxer spin. Where as some dogs he really explodes and it's definitely fear.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Dylan is scared of some dogs and excited by others, is the method still the same for both types of reactivity? I think what I'm wanting from him eventually is just to be able to acknowledge there's a dog over there, and realise that he doesn't have to bother about it!


I'm wondering this as Tilly is very different to my previous dog who thought every dog was going to attack him till he was much older and then he was great.
Tilly can be obsessed with trying to meet dogs but I want her to walk past nicely. Rarely she'll start barking and trying to lunge but I believe it's born out of frustration.
Most of the time we're ok but she is very strong considering she's only 19kg so looks bad straining on the lead.
If we're walking past each other she's pretty good but strains a lot, I put her on the opposite side so my leg can do some of the work. 
If she's stood still and they walk past, great she doesn't care. 
If they stop and we have to walk past is the worst as she's had the most time to work herself up and I struggle to control her in a manner that I can walk properly.
This is within a few feet of another dog, she wouldn't notice a dog in the distance.

I bought these so I could give her something else to focus on and as I found it hard trying to give individual treats in quick succession.
Today failed a bit as i was giving her it and she was doing very well ignoring two offlead dogs till they ran up to her and she jerked to meet them causing me to throw yogurt over her :Hilarious


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> still there are times where she is over threshold and won't take anything. What do you do in those situations ?


Abort mission. Hold on as best you can, get the dog out of there, at a distance they can function, do whatever damage control you can and then act as if nothing happened. 
Basically what you see me doing with Penny in the train video. I had to get up from the table and move away to the parking lot, and even there she was a mess, so I just held on to her and offered her support until she was able to function a little better.

The key though is for the handler to stay calm and offer that calm to the dog. Even with a bigger dog I do a body hold that mimics the pressure of a thundershirt. I'll squat down and let them push their chest in to my chest and loop an arm around so my elbow is on the ribcage and hand over their back and most dogs push in to that pressure. Obviously if the dog is a danger with their face that close to you, don't squat down, and put your face that near to them!
My great dane bitch used to shove her head in my armpit, which was fine LOL.

I keep talking, long slow pets, off-rhythm patting often has a positive effect on a freaking out dog, I'm not sure why but I notice it works with dogs who are freaking out about electric storms. Gives them a way to connect back with their bodies when they're all emotion maybe, IKD, I just know that it can help.

Once they seem like they're noticing you more and the freak out is lessening, try a treat or two just to gage where they are.



Barkingmad57 said:


> Dylan is scared of some dogs and excited by others, is the method still the same for both types of reactivity? I think what I'm wanting from him eventually is just to be able to acknowledge there's a dog over there, and realise that he doesn't have to bother about it!


Yes, LAT works whether the emotion is fear, excitement, frustration... It's the same concept of counter conditioning and then operantly conditioning the dog reorienting back to you.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

We saw one of my neighbours this morning who Loki doesn't like by association as he doesn't like her dog. He start barking so I did your hugging thing @O2.0 and it did work well loki looked a bit, 'hooman what's with the public snugs' but enjoyed it. I did feel a bit like I was taking part in David Cameron's Hug a Hoodie campaign.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> We saw one of my neighbours this morning who Loki doesn't like by association as he doesn't like her dog. He start barking so I did your hugging thing @O2.0 and it did work well loki looked a bit, 'hooman what's with the public snugs' but enjoyed it. I did feel a bit like I was taking part in David Cameron's Hug a Hoodie campaign.


Ha ha! 

Once they learn to literally and figuratively 'lean' on you for support, you don't always have to squat down, I used to be able to put Bates between my legs and squeeze him a little with my thighs and that was enough for him. In later years he would just get by my side and push in to my leg from there. There is something about pressure and contact with a trusted human that works well for a lot of dogs.

Not all dogs though! Some dogs are super touch sensitive and added pressure for them is more stressful rather than calming. Some spaniel types come to mind, probably some toy dogs too I imagine, just judging from how they react to normal touching, I'm just not as familiar with toy breeds. The German working group dogs, though? Boxers, danes, dobies, rotties - they're all about that physical contact.

Fortunately for me, Penny is a touch/pressure/contact dog and holding her reassures her. She has even starting asking to be picked up when she needs a break, which is awesome that she is able to recognize she needs help and ask for it.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Ha ha!
> 
> Once they learn to literally and figuratively 'lean' on you for support, you don't always have to squat down, I used to be able to put Bates between my legs and squeeze him a little with my thighs and that was enough for him. In later years he would just get by my side and push in to my leg from there. There is something about pressure and contact with a trusted human that works well for a lot of dogs.
> 
> ...


Oh yes loki loves a snug the tighter the better so it works well. We ended up having to do it on our second walk as we saw scary big boxer cross. He seems to be quite into the cuddles.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

I'll have to try a hug with Whisp next time she has a meltdown, she's a very cuddly dog, always chooses to snuggle up with a human if she can.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Ha ha!
> 
> Once they learn to literally and figuratively 'lean' on you for support, you don't always have to squat down, I used to be able to put Bates between my legs and squeeze him a little with my thighs and that was enough for him. In later years he would just get by my side and push in to my leg from there. There is something about pressure and contact with a trusted human that works well for a lot of dogs.
> 
> ...


The Schnauzer boys ask to be touched. I've only got to sit down and I'll have a dog on either side, head butting my arm and asking me to touch them. Gwylim in particular will happily sit or stand for ages with my hand resting on his back. Grisha likes me to put my arm round his neck. I sometimes wish I had an extra hand

Both my Pei liked physical contact as well, but being larger they tended to lean against my leg. When Georgina's sight was poor and she used to get anxious. I would pull her close to my leg and hold her tight whilst reassuring her everything was OK because I was there. The first thing the boys do if they're worried about something is to come to me which is lovely to think they have so much confidence in me.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I'll have to try this with Dylan if we're far enough away, if he really reacts I just have to concentrate on holding him! I do stop and sit down on walks and he leans on me then, so likes the contact. Lately I have been giving him some fuss and saying "it's OK" when he barks at home and it works unless he's really going for it ie a cat in the garden!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I'll have to try this with Dylan if we're far enough away, if he really reacts I just have to concentrate on holding him! I do stop and sit down on walks and he leans on me then, so likes the contact. Lately I have been giving him some fuss and saying "it's OK" when he barks at home and it works unless he's really going for it ie a cat in the garden!


Can you pop him between your legs to squeeze if you close? I do this with Loki sometimes. It also helps me to hold on.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> Can you pop him between your legs to squeeze if you close? I do this with Loki sometimes. It also helps me to hold on.


Alternatively, when he leans on you, you could put your arm around his neck, not tightly but firmly enough to hold him if he decides to react.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Yes I will try getting him between my legs next time he reacts and see how it goes! Yesterday he really reacted to a woman in the park, she was quite tall and wearing a long light coloured tunic so looked a bit different I suppose. Luckily we were in an enclosed bit playing ball so he just barked through the fence at her And in the next enclosure there was a Pug and a French Bulldog (both of which he hates) and he totally ignored them! They are a puzzle sometimes


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Yes I will try getting him between my legs next time he reacts and see how it goes! Yesterday he really reacted to a woman in the park, she was quite tall and wearing a long light coloured tunic so looked a bit different I suppose. Luckily we were in an enclosed bit playing ball so he just barked through the fence at her And in the next enclosure there was a Pug and a French Bulldog (both of which he hates) and he totally ignored them! They are a puzzle sometimes


I think sometimes they have a telling off quota for the day.

Today was interesting. Took Loki over the sports field and two young men were playing tennis. He sat and watched them for a few minutes and had some ham then one of them knocked the ball off course loki chaser it dragging me behind him.

We moved on and bumped into a couple who asked for directions. They got a couple of barns but he was spinning around and tail wagging I think he was just excited to see them.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Yes I will try getting him between my legs next time he reacts and see how it goes! Yesterday he really reacted to a woman in the park, she was quite tall and wearing a long light coloured tunic so looked a bit different I suppose. Luckily we were in an enclosed bit playing ball so he just barked through the fence at her And in the next enclosure there was a Pug and a French Bulldog (both of which he hates) and he totally ignored them! They are a puzzle sometimes


Have you got a "middle" cue?
I've found with fearful dogs especially having a proofed "middle" is invaluable. When it is proofed you can call him into a "middle" position before he reacts and you may find that this helps to build his confidence.

Here is a clip of one of the dogs I walk, she is fear aggressive and struggled immensely with dogs and people passing...especially if they talked to me.





We practised and practised this until it was solid...if she can't follow the cue I know that she is finding things too hard so we move away.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I've found with fearful dogs especially having a proofed "middle" is invaluable.


Absolutely. And make sure they also know how to back up while in "middle" that's very helpful too. Used it today with Penny. Sometimes she's feeling brave and then realizes maybe she's not that brave and middle is a good compromise. Today it was about 30 kids and teenagers, I was in the middle of them, Penny wanted to interact, until she didn't, then middle was the perfect solution. I could turn and swivel and move about and she was happy staying in her safe spot.

The lawnmower was another story though, that needed a stern telling off


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Well you will never guess who has been a clever good boy today. My loki. As we walked down to the field my neighbour came out their gate with their springer. Loki hasn’t got an issue with this dog so we stayed a distance behind and practiced LAT not only did he take some food which is amazing but he kept checking back in for more food. 

He never takes food around other dogs and the distance was reasonable but not huge. Very pleased with Loki.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Well you will never guess who has been a clever good boy today. My loki. As we walked down to the field my neighbour came out their gate with their springer. Loki hasn't got an issue with this dog so we stayed a distance behind and practiced LAT not only did he take some food which is amazing but he kept checking back in for more food.
> 
> He never takes food around other dogs and the distance was reasonable but not huge. Very pleased with Loki.


Way to go Loki!!
That's great that he's taking food, keep practicing!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki has been a good boy today. He met a few dogs and no reaction. Well some bouncing around but no barking. He was a bit spooked by some peacocks we could hear them but not see them. He got over it.

Please note; no Loki's were eaten by peacocks.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Whisp is "meeting" a new dog tomorrow, a little Jack Russell on a walk. So I will be using lots of treats. Might get some tasty chicken for her to up our success rate.

What do people use as treats for practicing LAT ?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Whisp is "meeting" a new dog tomorrow, a little Jack Russell on a walk. So I will be using lots of treats. Might get some tasty chicken for her to up our success rate.
> 
> What do people use as treats for practicing LAT ?


Loki likes cold cuts of ham and beef. It all has to be quite high value.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> What do people use as treats for practicing LAT ?


I was actually going to make a post about training treats, might as well do it here 










This is what's currently in my rotation. Add also cheese, freeze dried organ meat - Crumps naturals makes a tiny freeze dried liver that's perfect size, and dog food rolls like freshpet. 
All but the wellness core on the left I would break down further in to smaller pieces, the ziwi peaks and hollywood feed treats break easily in to smaller pieces, the zukes I cut lengthwise in quarters and break pieces off from there. If you have a bigger dog, just get the zukes minis, that size is already good.

Treat criteria:
1) Small and soft enough that the dog doesn't have to think about chewing. Especially for LAT, I want the dog to take it, taste, swallow, ready for a new treat quickly. If the dog is having to chew I'm losing him/her. Exception to this is freeze dried organ meat which is crunchy but if you make it small enough dogs can get it down quickly. Crumps naturals on Amazon makes tiny pieces. Careful with organ meat, too much and you get runny poo.

2) High value but also nutritionally valuable. Penny is small enough that at times she might get all or most of her meals in the way of training treats. If I do her nails, have someone come to the house and need to work on manners, then train, then have a walk with lots of encounters that also need treats, we're looking at most of her daily ration in treats, so it has to be things that can count as 'real' food for her too.

3) Portable/storable and easy to handle. I also like to use dog food rolls and chop small pieces, but I'm terrible about leaving a bag of treats in random places and there is nothing like putting on a coat that has been stored all summer and realizing there is rotting dog food in the pocket :Yuck And of course anything here in the summer gets hot and slimy quickly. Anything that is too slippery you end up dropping and the whole rhythm of look, mark, treat, look, mark, treat is thrown off. Training goes a lot smoother when the human has good mechanics and there is a predictable pattern to how the treats are delivered. If you're constantly fiddling and fussing with the treats the training is much less effective.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> What do people use as treats for practicing LAT ?


Depends on the dog...the value of food always depends on the individual dog 
Mostly I use homemade tuna and peanut butter/marmite brownies. That way I don't risk over loading with sugary, salty processed treats, I get to choose how big they are AND I can break them up easily in my fingers if I want to scatter.

Why not offer Whisp a selection of different things on a platter so that you can see what she chooses first and what she really likes?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Yay success today loki took some food kid telling someone off. He stopped to eat his ham. Really happy with my boy.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

We’ve had a terrible couple of days feeling very down hearted. It’s so quiet around here that I can manage things well, I just feel I’m never going to be able to take him anywhere else. I considered going away at Xmas then realised it will just be bloody stressful.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> We've had a terrible couple of days feeling very down hearted. It's so quiet around here that I can manage things well, I just feel I'm never going to be able to take him anywhere else. I considered going away at Xmas then realised it will just be bloody stressful.


Christmas is still a long way off and how can you foretell it will be stressful? That's a defeatist attitude.. Just keep on doing what you have been doing, AND stop stressing because you're only transmitting it to Loki. You've both come a long way and even though Loki might not be perfect he is improving. so stay positive and determined that you'll all enjoy yourselves over Christmas.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> Christmas is still a long way off and how can you foretell it will be stressful? That's a defeatist attitude.. Just keep on doing what you have been doing, AND stop stressing because you're only transmitting it to Loki. You've both come a long way and even though Loki might not be perfect he is improving. so stay positive and determined that you'll all enjoy yourselves over Christmas.


I feel like I can manage my environment here my neighbours are rather predictable so I know when and who will be out most of the time. If I take him somewhere a bit busier I'm worried he'll just be reacting to everything.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> We've had a terrible couple of days feeling very down hearted. It's so quiet around here that I can manage things well, I just feel I'm never going to be able to take him anywhere else. I considered going away at Xmas then realised it will just be bloody stressful.


Oh Boxer, look back over all your positive posts on here, look how far you and Loki have come. You're doing great!


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Boxer123 said:


> We've had a terrible couple of days feeling very down hearted. It's so quiet around here that I can manage things well, I just feel I'm never going to be able to take him anywhere else. I considered going away at Xmas then realised it will just be bloody stressful.


Could you look if there's secure field where you hope to go?
Maybe if you can just do that each day together and then you spend time exploring the area without Loki you'd both have an enjoyable and relaxing holiday.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Arny said:


> Could you look if there's secure field where you hope to go?
> Maybe if you can just do that each day together and then you spend time exploring the area without Loki you'd both have an enjoyable and relaxing holiday.


We do when we go away on odd days. I still want to be able to visit the beach (winter in Yorkshire it's pretty quiet) I just don't want him blowing up everytime we see someone.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

We did abit of training/desensitization today as the hunters were out en masse with their horrible loud guns. Every time there was a band I said "good" and gave her a treat, she did just take the odd one and drop it but most of them were eaten by the end of the walks and no panicking or trying to back out of her harness which for Whisp is really good.









Her favourite person (my sister) is round for the day and she is fast asleep on her.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> We did abit of training/desensitization today as the hunters were out en masse with their horrible loud guns. Every time there was a band I said "good" and gave her a treat, she did just take the odd one and drop it but most of them were eaten by the end of the walks and no panicking or trying to back out of her harness which for Whisp is really good.
> View attachment 475156
> 
> 
> Her favourite person (my sister) is round for the day and she is fast asleep on her.


Well done Whisp


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Penny was a good little adventure buddy today. She saw an elderly golden retriever and managed to walk by with no shenanigans, just one low growl and a little more body posturing than I would like but she did walk by without incident. So that's a win.

Then we passed a man and woman with a double stroller which was highly suspicious but again she behaved herself, and as soon as they passed looked up at me demanding payment for being good :Hilarious I was happy to oblige. This new attitude of "there, I pretended to be a normal dog, now pay up" is fine with me, at least she's not charging after them when stress of the initial encounter is over!

Later on two people with hiking poles wanted to say hi to her and she consented to a very quick pet from one of them, and again the "pay up" as they walked off :Hilarious

All in all a good day for the swamp rat


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Then we passed a man and woman with a double stroller which was highly suspicious but again she behaved herself, and as soon as they passed looked up at me demanding payment for being good :Hilarious I was happy to oblige. This new attitude of "there, I pretended to be a normal dog, now pay up" is fine with me, at least she's not charging after them when stress of the initial encounter is over!


It makes me happy to read this 

As an aside for anyone still here I have been steadily working on Engage/disengage which is a form of LAT with regards to Millie and cats. She is a very proficient hunter and has a huge chase history when it comes to cats so we have had to work very slowly at a distance so that we don't stress the cats and Millie doesn't get yet more practice with the chasing...we have got to the point that the local cats don't scarper as soon as they see us and Millie is able to contain herself enough that I feel safe enough to video it.
Would anyone like to see it?
If people want to see it then I will set up a session tomorrow  If not I won't bother :Hilarious


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> It makes me happy top read this
> 
> As an aside for anyone still here I have been steadily working on Engage/disengage which is a form of LAT with regards to Millie and cats. She is a very proficient hunter and has a huge chase history when it comes to cats so we have had to work very slowly at a distance so that we don't stress the cats and Millie doesn't get yet more practice with the chasing...we have got to the point that the local cats don't scarper as soon as they see us and Millie is able to contain herself enough that I feel safe enough to video it.
> Would anyone like to see it?
> If people want to see it then I will set up a session tomorrow  If not I won't bother :Hilarious


Yes please we are interested.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> It makes me happy to read this
> 
> As an aside for anyone still here I have been steadily working on Engage/disengage which is a form of LAT with regards to Millie and cats. She is a very proficient hunter and has a huge chase history when it comes to cats so we have had to work very slowly at a distance so that we don't stress the cats and Millie doesn't get yet more practice with the chasing...we have got to the point that the local cats don't scarper as soon as they see us and Millie is able to contain herself enough that I feel safe enough to video it.
> Would anyone like to see it?
> If people want to see it then I will set up a session tomorrow  If not I won't bother :Hilarious


Yes please!! 

And yes, Penny's progress is making me happy too. She's doing so well with a huge gaggle of kids now too. "Her" kids are safe, she's letting them hold her, she'll consent to go a little ways with them on the leash, she's fine off leash with them, maybe one or two shoelaces get attacked  But yeah, it's wonderful to see her blossom


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

We had to go to one of the government departments that's situated i a part of town the boys haven't been to before. As it's mainly residential we met lots of people and children on our way, most of whom the boys ignored. There was however one little girl who'd be about 3 years old who as soon as she saw Gwylim wanted to pat him. When her Mummy said no she started to throw a tantrum . Gwylim who loves little girls soon sorted the problem by moving forward slightly and ducking his head under the little girl's hand. She quickly gave him a pat and we all moved on.

Blow me if he didn't go and spoil it all a couple of minutes later when we were walking past a metal gate with the disembodied barking of a dog behind it. All was well until we got to the end of the gate where there was a small gap between it and the wall. Gwylim spotted a dog's face and went for it. His owner being the horrid hooman being that she is, told him to stop his nonsense and carried on walking, A little father down the road we stopped and practiced his sit which is always a good way of calming him down. Not a peep out of him after that!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

This isn't perfect by a long shot but then real life is rarely perfect...adding the camera messed up my mechanics a bit, but there wasn't anywhere safe to put my phone. 
The clip is unedited so you can see right from the moment we come across a cat, right up to when we move away...warts and all!





Still a way to go...as you will see the couple of times she really struggles to disengage, but she is such a seasoned cat chaser it will take as long as it takes to change that practised self rewarding behaviour into something more civilized :Hilarious

I thought I'd also add a picture of the face I get after passing something scary without turning into a screaming potato










@O2.0 this is the face I was picturing when reading your post


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> This isn't perfect by a long shot but then real life is rarely perfect...adding the camera messed up my mechanics a bit, but there wasn't anywhere safe to put my phone.
> The clip is unedited so you can see right from the moment we come across a cat, right up to when we move away...warts and all!
> 
> 
> ...


Bless her are you using a clicker or just your tongue Loki likes the clicker but I get into a bit of a pickle not having enough hands.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> This isn't perfect by a long shot but then real life is rarely perfect...adding the camera messed up my mechanics a bit, but there wasn't anywhere safe to put my phone.
> The clip is unedited so you can see right from the moment we come across a cat, right up to when we move away...warts and all!
> 
> 
> ...


Takes me back to last year trying to get Grisha not to go apeshit every time he saw a cyclist, scooter or pushchair .We used to spend practically every training session in a supermarket car park next to a busy road, with a cycle lane in front of it, in a residential area with families with young children. Worth it though because nowadays he couldn't care less about any of them, except when we're in the car. I've found though by ignoring him completely, he's actually got much better maybe because he's no longer getting any feedback from me.

Grisha getting up close and personal with the enemy!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> Bless her are you using a clicker or just your tongue Loki likes the clicker but I get into a bit of a pickle not having enough hands.


I'm using my tongue (you will also hear me use a kissy noise a couple of times as well which is her conditioned positive interrupter). Millie can be noise sensitive and was terrified of a box clicker when we tried to introduce it the first time. We have got over that now and I can use my clicker to mark in low distraction environments but it doesn't hold anywhere near as much value as a noise from one of her favourite people 
A clicker can be a faff in the real world, I find a tongue click works just as well (still relies on good timing of course) and it's not a faff 

@Magyarmum Once Millie has got to grips with disengaging from cats we will eventually work up to just walking past and ignoring them, but for now she needs the input otherwise she makes really bad choices


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> I'm using my tongue (you will also hear me use a kissy noise a couple of times as well which is her conditioned positive interrupter). Millie can be noise sensitive and was terrified of a box clicker when we tried to introduce it the first time. We have got over that now and I can use my clicker to mark in low distraction environments but it doesn't hold anywhere near as much value as a noise from one of her favourite people
> A clicker can be a faff in the real world, I find a tongue click works just as well (still relies on good timing of course) and it's not a faff
> 
> @Magyarmum Once Millie has got to grips with disengaging from cats we will eventually work up to just walking past and ignoring them, but for now she needs the input otherwise she makes really bad choices


I think I'll try that he likes a 'good' as well. It's a bit tricky with Loki if I can't get the distance screaming potato starts. He did well with it today when a scary male jogger ran past.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Why is it that so many dogs react to male humans ?
Is it the way they move ?

Whisp will bark a men coming up our driveway, never women. And she took a long time to trust my Dad, their relationship is still a little strained.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Why is it that so many dogs react to male humans ?
> Is it the way they move ?
> 
> Whisp will bark a men coming up our driveway, never women. And she took a long time to trust my Dad, their relationship is still a little strained.


I asked my trainer this. She guessed it's because loki doesn't have to much experience with men (see petty things thread about my single life) but also that they do move differently and are generally louder. (Unless it's my neighbour Peter who loki has a bromance with)


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> This isn't perfect by a long shot but then real life is rarely perfect...adding the camera messed up my mechanics a bit, but there wasn't anywhere safe to put my phone.
> The clip is unedited so you can see right from the moment we come across a cat, right up to when we move away...warts and all!
> 
> 
> ...


Oh that was so hard! Good job hairy dog!! Definitely worth the "pay up" face 



Beth78 said:


> Why is it that so many dogs react to male humans ?


It's really just exposure and what they have experience with. Penny doesn't care if the human is male or female, all new people worry her. I doubt she has a lot of experience with people in general. 
Fortunately the more people she meets, the more she is able to generalize that all people are okay. She confidently trotted up to a bearded man wearing a hat who said hello to her today, no issues.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I'm using my tongue (you will also hear me use a kissy noise a couple of times as well which is her conditioned positive interrupter). Millie can be noise sensitive and was terrified of a box clicker when we tried to introduce it the first time. We have got over that now and I can use my clicker to mark in low distraction environments but it doesn't hold anywhere near as much value as a noise from one of her favourite people
> A clicker can be a faff in the real world, I find a tongue click works just as well (still relies on good timing of course) and it's not a faff
> 
> @Magyarmum Once Millie has got to grips with disengaging from cats we will eventually work up to just walking past and ignoring them, but for now she needs the input otherwise she makes really bad choices


I don't know how Grisha would react to cats, because although there used to be several in the village they all seem to have disappeared. The only time he sees one is when we go to the vet.

If anyone had told me a year ago that he would ignore all the cyclists etc I wouldn't have believed it was possible because when we started he was SO reactive. I used to get upset because I couldn't control this barking snarling monster. Today apart from a bit of Schnauzer stubbornness he's a real delight to walk.

Unlike Grisha who's full of confidence Gwylim is rather timid and easily frightened and he's the one I have to watch because he can be unpredictable with other dogs. Basically he doesn't like black or dark coloured dogs, dogs with pointy faces and dogs with sticky up ears. At 7 years old we know each other well and more importantly he trusts me. I know what to look for in another dog and usually manage to distract him. It's only if he's seen the dog before I have that we have a problem. I've found if he does react, the easiest way is to quicken my pace and "jolly" him past an offending dog. As soon as we're past he's back to normal.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

It's the 3 d's cropping up again - Distance, Duration, Distraction. 
Distance is how far or close the trigger is. Most dogs can handle a trigger *there* but will start reacting if it gets closer.
Duration is how long the dog has to be in the presence of the trigger. My great dane bitch was notorious for being able to handle something for exactly *this* long, but then would explode a second after her limit. Owners often are confused by this one, "the dog was getting along fine with this other dog and then out of the blue lost it." Nope, just a function of duration.
And Distraction is what the trigger is doing. Penny can handle mellow dogs walking by her calmly. More obviously aroused dog, pulling, staring at her, or worse, barking, she can't handle (yet  ). Another example of when I was training Bates to ignore the rooster, he was fine with rooster mooching about doing rooster things, but if the rooster flapped his wings - that was it, rooster must die.

In @StormyThai example, the cat was very helpfully not doing anything to add to the distraction part of the equation, so working on distance and duration makes good sense. If the cat had run off, that might have been more than the dog could handle and you would have seen a bigger reaction.

Most of us work on really short durations, which makes sense when you're just trying to get through a walk. But ideally you want the dog to be able to handle triggers with all 3 of the D's in play. This is where things like engage/disengage and LAT really shine because it gives the dog a little more agency over their behavior and helps them build up that much needed internal control to be able to handle those triggers.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> In @StormyThai example, the cat was very helpfully not doing anything to add to the distraction part of the equation, so working on distance and duration makes good sense. If the cat had run off, that might have been more than the dog could handle and you would have seen a bigger reaction.


Yep, yep and yep.
Moving cats are much, much harder for Millie. If the cat had been a mover I would have given her much more distance or even decided that today was not the day with the added distraction of the workman...which is why the criteria is so low...don't lunge and be a douche - you get a click and a reward.

My biggest piece of advice for anyone starting out on LAT or the disengage game is to set a short timer (first time no more than 2 minutes, only 1 minute if the dog is struggling) so that you get a clear marker for when to move on before the stress bubble can burst. I wouldn't normally hang around for a full 6 minutes because as you watch you can actually see her get tense and starts to find it hard to disengage...I should have stopped a couple of minutes before I did tbh If you think that things aren't going to plan then move on and try again another day or with a different trigger...some days some things are easier to train around than others


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> so that you get a clear marker for when to move on before the stress bubble can burst.


Just to add to the stress bubble bursting - great analogy! 
Don't be surprised if the dog behaves beautifully and then "out of the blue" reacts as you move away from the trigger or as the trigger moves away from you. That's all part of that stress bubble. Sometimes the relief of the trigger moving away causes a reaction. That's not at all unusual.

Penny started doing this. Initially she couldn't pass people without me picking her up, she would just flatten to the ground and couldn't move, so I'd pick her up. Then she was able to walk by, clearly stressed, but able to keep moving, then she felt braver and started growling/barking as the people walked away. 
Again LAT and engage/disengage works wonders because if you're busy claiming your treat for good behavior, it's harder to remember to bark at the scary thing going away. 
We're now at the stage that she'll walk past something scary (like a baby stroller) and turn to me knowing there is a treat and praise coming after handling a stressful encounter. It's all a conditioned response, but the look she gives me does make me laugh


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Oh dear! I hope neither you @02.0 nor You @StormyThai think I was questioning your method of training?

I wasn't, I was simply commenting about how I've got Grisha and Gwylim over similar hurdles.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I didn't think that you were questioning the method at all @Magyarmum I thought that you were just joining in the conversation


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Dylan seems to be improving with his dog reactivity and I'm sure that our weekly walks with a couple of friends and their dogs are helping. 
He has Mabel the pointer, Lily the German Shepherd and Elsie the Lab with him, none of whom are reactive to other dogs, they're all off lead and he is so much more relaxed (so am I!) 
We did meet a Leonberger last week, and he just made a detour through the undergrowth and waited for us further up the path! He still can't do big dogs, but being off lead he found a solution that worked for him rather than reacting.
In the last couple of weeks he's greeted a boxer cross, two pugs and a Staffie nicely on the lead, and walked past a French Bulldog calmly, had to pinch myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming . These breeds were all triggers. 
He can still be unpredictable with people and some dogs, but being with non-reactive friends seems to work for him.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Well Penny is about to be tested - see how normal a dog she can pretend to be! 
We are off to a big-ish city, staying in a hotel, and going to see the sights and of course visit the beach. I'm feeling mostly confident, we shall see


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Well Penny is about to be tested - see how normal a dog she can pretend to be!
> We are off to a big-ish city, staying in a hotel, and going to see the sights and of course visit the beach. I'm feeling mostly confident, we shall see


I'm sure she will make you proud.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Well Penny is about to be tested - see how normal a dog she can pretend to be!
> We are off to a big-ish city, staying in a hotel, and going to see the sights and of course visit the beach. I'm feeling mostly confident, we shall see


If she's anything like the Schnauzer boys she'll be so interested in all the new smells she won't have time to be norti or nervous. He's got over it now but when we first started city walking Gwylim wanted to go into every place where they served food. I had to drag him past the Doner Kebab which he thought had a particularly enticing aroma wafting out of the doors!


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Well Penny is about to be tested - see how normal a dog she can pretend to be!
> We are off to a big-ish city, staying in a hotel, and going to see the sights and of course visit the beach. I'm feeling mostly confident, we shall see


Good luck, I hope she even manages to enjoy it!


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## ECT (Jan 16, 2021)

Im sure little Penny will do great. You've done amazing things with her training.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

So far so good!!
3 hour car ride here, check in to hotel, dinner at a restaurant (outside), Penny has been phenomenal. There was a woman in the parking lot taking photos with a tripod who was highly suspicious, and a cat that needed to be grumbled at, and the air conditioning unit in the hotel room is also suspect. But she sat through a whole dinner and did great, walked around in town and still managed to listen to me, and even walked up weird open stairs with only minor hesitation. Had no problem eating dinner in a new place, and after a thorough inspection of the room, she is now sacked out on the bed, still half an eye on that A/C unit LOL


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## Ragnar&Biffy (Sep 28, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> Getting a nervous dog to take food is one of the harder and less discussed issues with dealing with a reactive dog.
> Like you say, so many reactive dogs simply won't eat, but eating is really a huge key to getting them emotionally more stable. Sniffing the food, chewing the food, it's all calming and key to changing that emotional state.
> I feel like there needs to be more emphasis on strategies to get dogs to take treats.
> 
> I don't know if you notice it, but several times in that video Penny takes the food but doesn't swallow it until I give another yes and she turns to me and you see her swallowing the last treat she took.


Biggest thing I have learnt recently is the state of arousal biff is in... Taking this from the densise fenzi stuff I have been doing...

Chances are looking at a trigger at a scale of 1 to 10 chances are being a 10... Then if you offer some food by hand... Prob only really worth about a 2 or 3 max to a dog even less if their not interested in food.. so I need to find something to bring him down to a say 6... Food toss...or a high value treat scatter... Then once he's at a 6 he will then take good from the hand ..

But like already mentioned.. if something is at a 7 at distance then it may only be worth a 4 closer .. so will need to use another technique... To bring him down ..

This works a treat... No pun intended


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Good example today of losing all the spoons LOL
Penny has had two incredibly full days and she has held it all together remarkably well. But by 6pm today, she got out of the car, right as a horse and buggy drove by and she lost it. And did not regain any semblance of sense again. So by the time we got back to the hotel she couldn't walk a step without barking at some perceived something. 

So time to back way way way up. I needed her to pee and in order for her to pee, she had to calm down enough to actually think about peeing. So we went back to an old Control Unleashed trick, one, two, three, treat. Literally I'd walk 3 steps, mark and reward. Walk 3 steps, mark and reward. By the third rep she turned to me herself, by the next rep she was ready, by the next rep I had my dog back. Precariously, but I had her back. Got her to pee, and then picked her up to avoid any more surprises and brought her up to the room and she is now completely zonked out bless her. 

Hopefully after a good night sleep and a quiet morning walk she should be okay for half a day tomorrow then home


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Thought I would add this here since it's relevant to the whole reactive/fearful/over aroused/ PITA dog thing  

We spent a day and a half out of town. Traveling, 2 nights in a hotel room, lots of walking in high 'stuff going on' areas. And overall Penny did great but it was a lot. 

We got home Monday evening. She slept most of the day Tuesday with just some quiet potty breaks. Wednesday morning on her walk I noticed she was a little 'meh' about being rewarded with treats. She was also not really pestering me like she usually does. Mental note. Wednesday afternoon she was very happy to see me and playful but still meh about treats.
Probably what happened is that treats were slightly poisoned for her with everything going on during the trip. Solution: make things really, really easy and reward that. So I did. I rewarded every check in like she was the smartest dog ever, rewarded easy eye contact, rewarded sits. Let her be super successful with behaviors she does anyway. Her enthusiasm started coming back. 

By this morning on her walk I have my dog back probably 90%. 
All this is totally normal. She had a very high adrenaline weekend and it's going to take time for that to subside. That's fine. It's the same with dog show weekends. It takes a while for the dog to 'recover.' It's not that high adrenaline things are necessarily bad, it's that we have to help our dogs recover from those things in a positive way. The more experience they get with these things and recovering well, the more resilient they become in general. Which is a good thing


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki has decided he loves the treat pouch. He’s eating on walks even in the morning. Yesterday a man popped up as we were on our run from behind a wall and Loki gave a low growl but no telling off. Today I saw my neighbour so I went to open the pouch and Loki decided to give me a sit (didn’t and never ask for this when out) he sat beautifully whilst my neighbour went past. 

The problem we have is we rarely meet new dogs I can walk for ages without seeing anybody. So next week I’m going to put my big girl pants on drive out to a different village. They have a large village green we can sit on and hopefully see some new dogs but with a good distance.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Good example today of losing all the spoons LOL
> Penny has had two incredibly full days and she has held it all together remarkably well. But by 6pm today, she got out of the car, right as a horse and buggy drove by and she lost it. And did not regain any semblance of sense again. So by the time we got back to the hotel she couldn't walk a step without barking at some perceived something.
> 
> So time to back way way way up. I needed her to pee and in order for her to pee, she had to calm down enough to actually think about peeing. So we went back to an old Control Unleashed trick, one, two, three, treat. Literally I'd walk 3 steps, mark and reward. Walk 3 steps, mark and reward. By the third rep she turned to me herself, by the next rep she was ready, by the next rep I had my dog back. Precariously, but I had her back. Got her to pee, and then picked her up to avoid any more surprises and brought her up to the room and she is now completely zonked out bless her.
> ...


We had virtually the same experience a few years ago when Gwylim and I went on holiday to a town famous for being the home of the Hungarian Lipizzaner horses. I was driving down the main road looking for the hotel when a buggy drawn by 4 Lipizzaner went past. The noise was deafening and like Penny, Gwylim lost it. Not much you can do though when your dog's on the back seat of the car and you're driving though heavy traffic.

I've decided we're giving up training in the city for the time being, because although we've achieved what I wanted with Grisha, I feel it's becoming too stressful for Gwylim. Apart from him having become more reactive to other dogs the signs of stress are subtle. For example he's become very hesitant at pedestrian crossings and he hates me being out of his sight for more than a minute. Just several little things which taken together indicate he's not happy. .And for a couple of days after he's very clingy.and demanding.

Thinking about it it must be difficult being a small dog especially when walking down a busy street because all they see are feet and legs! I can sympathise because being small myself all I see when walking in a crowded place are chests and backs which I find very disorienting.and sometimes scary.

Anyway whilst the weather's good we'll be exploring the countryside. Next week we've got a long walk lined up round a lake not too far away, which I think the boys will enjoy as it will be the first time they've seen anything bigger than a puddle.

Sorry about the ramble.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> So next week I'm going to put my big girl pants on drive out to a different village. They have a large village green we can sit on and hopefully see some new dogs but with a good distance.


Oh way to go! I'm excited you're feeling this brave with him 



Magyarmum said:


> Sorry about the ramble.


Not at all! I enjoyed reading it  
It's one of those things you just have to assess what your dog can and can't do and work to their strengths while building up their weak areas as best you can. 
Penny's weakness is that she's fearful - some of it is inherent temperament, but some of it is simply lack of experience, that part is fixable with more experiences. Her strength is how resilient she is, the more I can build up her resilience, the more opportunities we will have to experience new things. 
I don't think she will ever not be a 'fearful' dog, but she will hopefully have many more tools to deal with her fears that they won't affect her as much.

And yes, I totally agree that being tiny in a big city is a totally different ball game than being normal sized!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

O2.0 said:


> Oh way to go! I'm excited you're feeling this brave with him
> 
> Not at all! I enjoyed reading it
> It's one of those things you just have to assess what your dog can and can't do and work to their strengths while building up their weak areas as best you can.
> ...


I wouldn't describe Gwylim as fearful, timid would be a better description, He's startles easily which is OK at home as he'll just run and hide in the house, but he does recover very quickly.. In a city though there are so many noises and happenings that make him jump he doesn't get much time in between to pull himself together and I think by the time he gets back into the car he's had an overload.

He's so different to Grisha who wouldn't notice if the sky fell on top of him (and he was the one I worried about) Gabor and I were talking about them over coffee and we agreed if they were little boys instead of dogs, Gwylim would be the one with his thumb in his mouth standing on the sidelines watching all the other kids play and Grisha would be the one in the thick of things leading everyone astray!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Oh way to go! I'm excited you're feeling this brave with him
> 
> Not at all! I enjoyed reading it
> It's one of those things you just have to assess what your dog can and can't do and work to their strengths while building up their weak areas as best you can.
> ...


I think we have to, we have walked for hours today had an amazing time but saw no one. He loves his tread bag now. Today we practiced me calling him in on the long line and he came trotting over.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Magyarmum said:


> I wouldn't describe Gwylim as fearful, timid would be a better description, He's startles easily which is OK at home as he'll just run and hide the house, but he does recover very quickly.. In a city though there are so many noises and happenings that make him jump he doesn't get much time in between to pull himself together and I think by the time he gets back into the car he's had an overload.
> 
> He's so different to Grisha who wouldn't notice if the sky fell on top of him (and he was the one I worried about) Gabor and I were talking about them over coffee and we agreed if they were little boys instead of dogs, Gwylim would be the one with his thumb in his mouth standing on the sidelines watching all the other kids play and Grisha would be the one in the thick of things leading everyone astray!


LOL Penny is both. She's got her thumb in her mouth, but also wants to be in the thick of things. Her 'safety blanket' is me holding her or sitting in my lap big baby!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

svel said:


> hi friends.how to train your pets click for more details


Perhaps you could tell us more about yourself and your qualifications, before offering to help train our pets


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

OMG OMG! Guess who was the *normal* dog today?!! 
Yup, screaming potato meth puppy  

Was at the state park, saw two small fluffies (bichons poodles something) headed our direction and when the owner saw us, she backtracked and moved as far off the trail as she could so I figured it was going to be loud. I kept Penny's line loose as best I could, encouraged her with a "this way" and we walked by two barking dogs with only a few low grumbles from Penny and hackles up. But she walked by beautifully! I'm so proud of her! 
I'm sure next encounter she will be a screaming potato again, but I'm tucking this victory in my back pocket for now


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Woop woop we have had success people 

As I said my surrounding area is quiet unless you go down the river which has a thin path. Loki has been doing really well eating his treats and walking past men but we haven't seen many new dogs. The ones here he either loves or hates.

Anyway today I had slightly more tome over lunch so drove to the next village. It has a circular walk which is popular with dog walkers. It also has a large village green which has a Road next to it. Most dogs are on a lead for this bit. So I decided it was a good place to start. We went out with my bag stuffed with ham and beef cuts the good stuff.

We got out the car and he was sniffy pants. He didn't want any treats just to sniff. Then we saw a dog. It walked past he went to bark but then came back to me and had some ham !

We went on and saw a few people, children playing all exciting lots of sniffing. Then a black lab and small dog came around the corner. We had good distance but Loki hates black labs. I kept the lead loose. He sat and watched them the lab did eye ball him so he went on the floor. I threw some ham which he ate 

















They went past us and Loki looked back at me for more treats sometimes he kicks off once they have past but we just had cuddles, treats and told him he was hood boy in a silly voice which he loves. We continued and a dog barked at him from its gate which he was ok with.

I am proud as punch with Loki. You can see him watching the folk with the lab in the photo but he kept checking in with me. His coat is to small we need a new one .

What's also amazing is that I had hands to take photos normally it would have been all hands on deck.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> Woop woop we have had success people
> 
> As I said my surrounding area is quiet unless you go down the river which has a thin path. Loki has been doing really well eating his treats and walking past men but we haven't seen many new dogs. The ones here he either loves or hates.
> 
> ...


Brill! Well done Loki!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Sarah H said:


> Brill! Well done Loki!


Behaving himself has really exhausted himself.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> Woop woop we have had success people
> 
> As I said my surrounding area is quiet unless you go down the river which has a thin path. Loki has been doing really well eating his treats and walking past men but we haven't seen many new dogs. The ones here he either loves or hates.
> 
> ...


Aaw Good boy, well done both of you, a great success.
Does anyone pay attention to his coat ?
Whisp wears a yellow " Nervous" bandana and an increasing amount of people seem to acknowledge it. They say things like "I saw the yellow so I put him on the lead" and "oh he's a Nervous boy is he " (to which I reply yesh SHE is and thank you.
It does seem to make a difference.
Of course you will always get the "Oh it's OK mines friendly" brigade.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Aaw Good boy, well done both of you, a great success.
> Does anyone pay attention to his coat ?
> Whisp wears a yellow " Nervous" bandana and an increasing amount of people seem to acknowledge it. They say things like "I saw the yellow so I put him on the lead" and "oh he's a Nervous boy is he " (to which I reply yesh SHE is and thank you.
> It does seem to make a difference.
> Of course you will always get the "Oh it's OK mines friendly" brigade.


Yes I think they do the coat is easier to see than our nervous lead which I pop on the front if needed.

The people with the lab today could clearly see we were training kept a good distance and ignored us except a little head nod.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

We have had some great successful moments and a handful of embarrassing ones. But as they say "gotta take the rough with the smooth" & the smooth times far outweigh the rough.

We have decided chicken and cheese is the way to go.

And she's been such a good girl she has been bought a brand new toy, which she has fallen asleep with.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> We have had some great successful moments and a handful of embarrassing ones. But as they say "gotta take the rough with the smooth" & the smooth times far outweigh the rough.
> 
> We have decided chicken and cheese is the way to go.
> 
> ...


Good girl Whisp loki says it is a scary world out there.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 476218
> 
> 
> Behaving himself has really exhausted himself.


What a good boy you are Loki! Are you beginning to grow up by any chance?

Nothing as spectacular for us, just a slight improvement in a certain white creatures behaviour.

i bought a double ended lead which arrived yesterday because I'd quite like to walk both boys on the same lead. Haven't tried that yet but did use it to take Grisha for a walk. He's fine until we start heading for home when the stubborn little ****** digs his heels in and refuses to budge. Today I hooked him up to both the front and back rings on his harness and amazingly he offered very little resistance. Mind you I did have his favourite treats with me which helped!

Him posing to show off the new lead. It's longer than most I looked at being 2.40 cms attached to one ring or 1.20 when attached to two rings


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> What a good boy you are Loki! Are you beginning to grow up by any chance?
> 
> Nothing as spectacular for us, just a slight improvement in a certain white creatures behaviour.
> 
> ...


Ha ha loki agrees never walk home without treats. He looks very handsome with his lead. Loki may be growing up next month he is 3 !


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh way to go Loki and Whisp! 
And Grisha


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Excellent, well done Loki and you!
His face says it all.

There must be something in the air with everyone doing so well.


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## niamh123 (Nov 4, 2018)

Well done Loki


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

niamh123 said:


> Well done Loki


We need to keep practicing it's easy just to walk around here and avoid folk.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

We’ve had another success (well I think it is) on our village lunch walk. Across the road lives a boxer cross & spaniel. The boxer cross is very nervous and will go into a stalky pose. She is always off lead but never approaches. However on one occasion she came around a corner and bumped into loki. They scared each other and she ran off. Since then loki has reacted badly to these dogs.


Anyway today we spotted them. Loki planted to the spot but I was pretty sure they would go down another path. He looked at them and excepted his treats. Checked in and looked. He did refuse to move but didn’t bark, I didn’t need to put his second lead on. They disappeared and he sat for another minutes then came along for more treats. 

Am I doing this right ? Should I have tried to move him on more I know eventually that’s what we want, but we had the distance right.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> We've had another success (well I think it is) on our village lunch walk. Across the road lives a boxer cross & spaniel. The boxer cross is very nervous and will go into a stalky pose. She is always off lead but never approaches. However on one occasion she came around a corner and bumped into loki. They scared each other and she ran off. Since then loki has reacted badly to these dogs.
> 
> Anyway today we spotted them. Loki planted to the spot but I was pretty sure they would go down another path. He looked at them and excepted his treats. Checked in and looked. He did refuse to move but didn't bark, I didn't need to put his second lead on. They disappeared and he sat for another minutes then came along for more treats.
> 
> Am I doing this right ? Should I have tried to move him on more I know eventually that's what we want, but we had the distance right.


Grisha's another one to not move given a similar situation. He'll either plonk himself down or stand rooted to the ground and stare. I honestly don't know whether it's the right thing to do, but I just leave him until he decides to move on again. Dealing with him when he goes on strike because he doesn't want to go home is another matter

Gwylim is totally different, with him if he's not too distracted I ask him to sit and reward him then move on, but if he's doing his whirling dervish act I hurry him on for quite a distance before getting him to sit.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> Grisha's another one to not move given a similar situation. He'll either plonk himself down or stand rooted to the ground and stare. I honestly don't know whether it's the right thing to do, but I just leave him until he decides to move on again. Dealing with him when he goes on strike because he doesn't want to go home is another matter
> 
> Gwylim is totally different, with him if he's not too distracted I ask him to sit and reward him then move on, but if he's doing his whirling dervish act I hurry him on for quite a distance before getting him to sit.


I can move him with the leash wrap or sideways move but only if I really have to. Today was good because he did check in for treats. He sits his butt down all the time on the way home, if he sees a butterfly.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Well done to Loki, you have worked really hard with him! And to everyone else on the thread too
Dylan still plants himself sometimes when he sees an "interesting" dog! Today I managed to distract him with "find it" for one dog until they were out of sight. He also greeted a male Mastiff (not a huge one!) nicely - I grabbed his harness then realised he was going to be OK. He seems to be judging dogs more as individuals rather than just their appearance if that makes sense! The Mastiff was obviously a real softie


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Well done to Loki, you have worked really hard with him! And to everyone else on the thread too
> Dylan still plants himself sometimes when he sees an "interesting" dog! Today I managed to distract him with "find it" for one dog until they were out of sight. He also greeted a male Mastiff (not a huge one!) nicely - I grabbed his harness then realised he was going to be OK. He seems to be judging dogs more as individuals rather than just their appearance if that makes sense! The Mastiff was obviously a real softie


That's good when they realise not everyone is scary.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Am I doing this right ? Should I have tried to move him on more I know eventually that's what we want, but we had the distance right.


I'd say yes  
If it's safe for him to not move, then let him. Sometimes it's a lot for a little boxer brain to both not bark and move their feet. So if all he can do is stand there and divert his focus between you and the trigger, hey, that's progress!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I have another question. Today we went back to the village green to practice. Loki spotted two black labs did very well taking his treats.

Loki is generally less reactive when in a new place. New smells take his mind off things. So whilst the village green is perfect to practice he will soon get bored. There are plenty of other places to go however we do run the risk of off lead numpties more so.

Do we go for it ? 
If an off lead dog runs over I have treats to throw and toys.

I am literally head to toe on yellow to warn people. Is there anything else I should be doing ?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Me again because loki has been bloody amazing I can't quite believe it I'm so happy !

We went to a different village green. It is huge with lots of overgrown grass and tracks. It was very exciting lots of sniffs. We bumped into a lady with a black lab. She stopped to ask about Loki's boxer tail. She kept a good distance and her dog couldn't be less interested.

Loki went flat. As we spoke he relaxed until he was just laying on the grass eating his beef ! The lady moved on no reaction


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 476626
> View attachment 476627
> Me again because loki has been bloody amazing I can't quite believe it I'm so happy !
> 
> ...


Wow that's amazing!!! It's great seeing progress for all the hard work and patience we put in.
I think he needs an extra big treat for that.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Wow that's amazing!!! It's great seeing progress for all the hard work and patience we put in.
> I think he needs an extra big treat for that.


He is smashing it at the moment. I'm so proud. He has a belly full of beef and a new squeaky doughnut.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

I think there’s a ‘lightbulb’ moment when a reactive dog realises that, whatever the problem, you’re dealing with it so they don’t have to.

Hopefully Loki has reached this.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Linda Weasel said:


> I think there's a 'lightbulb' moment when a reactive dog realises that, whatever the problem, you're dealing with it so they don't have to.
> 
> Hopefully Loki has reached this.


I hope so my worry is off lead numpties we haven't seen one so far in training. I need to be more confident dealing with it. The lady today was lovely and her dog was so calm.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Yesterday we bumped into a dog that Tilly often reacts to (barking and lounging which is a rare occurrence for her and more usually reserved for those that have an issue with her but this dog doesn't pay any attention at all so not sure what the problem is), the owner lives close by and we often stop for a chat but we've not seen each other for a while.
Nothing I've tried has worked so we end up having a conversation while I edge further and further away to eventually cut the talk short and leave.
Her dog isn't well so she really wanted to talk.
I put Tilly behind me, something I'd never really thought of doing but often see it mentioned on here. With the added benefit that I've now got a double ended lead that makes me feel a lot more in control.
When Tilly came out about 30 seconds later she was absolutely fine and we could talk a few metres apart for several minutes.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm still having issues with Penny and all her complicated conflicted feelings with people. 
She's completely fine with the 32 kids she sees at practice 3 to 4 times a week. They can pet her, pick her up, run around near her, run up to her and past her on the trails, she's fine and enjoys all of it. She takes treats from all the kids (even while being held which is huge) and has even started playing with a few of them.

But she's still totally conflicted with a lot of other adults. She's small and cute and being fine around 'her' kids so adults approach her and it's very hit or miss. Sometimes she is curious and seems to enjoy the interaction but then she'll sometimes do the stress dump 'attack' as they walk away. Others she wants nothing to do with, and shrinks away, and then sometimes it's almost like she's being territorial about her space near the main group and she'll get growly, even bark if I don't address it right away. 

So she's basically a mess of conflict between "oooh new person I might like them" and "scary person go away" and "my people I'm not sharing." 
But hey, it's only been a year of trying to civilize her, so we'll just keep plugging away


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> I hope so my worry is off lead numpties we haven't seen one so far in training. I need to be more confident dealing with it. The lady today was lovely and her dog was so calm.


Sounds like you are making excellent progress with Loki, great name too.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

cbcdesign said:


> Sounds like you are making excellent progress with Loki, great name too.


It's taken a long time I think I underestimated that. Another helpful tip is to carry extra treats and a toy to throw at off lead dogs to keep them away. If you can crack the car issues field rentals have been a lifesaver.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I’ve not had much chance for off village training this week due to the petrol crisis. Loki has done well letting me talk to our postman who he normally tells off. He also sat for his ham when a runner went by and she commented he was a good boy


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Good boy Loki! And well done Mum  your hard work is paying off.
We had an encounter with an off lead German Shepherd today, he was determined to come and say hello - Dylan coped pretty well seeing as it was large and male!! There was a bit of snarling after the initial sniff, but his owner had come over to put him on the lead and apologised. A year ago Dylan would have gone crazy, so it made me realise he is making progress.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Good boy Loki! And well done Mum  your hard work is paying off.
> We had an encounter with an off lead German Shepherd today, he was determined to come and say hello - Dylan coped pretty well seeing as it was large and male!! There was a bit of snarling after the initial sniff, but his owner had come over to put him on the lead and apologised. A year ago Dylan would have gone crazy, so it made me realise he is making progress.


Well done Dylan that must have been a bit scary.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

We haven't been able to go out of the village training this week due to petrol gate. Today I walked loki to the garage to get my car. We saw lots of people as there were groups of walkers and strange men in deckchairs with radios. Two scary loud vans being emptied and he went into the garage to pay. Overall a good boy.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

So today went quite well. We have use of the car so headed out to the next village at lunch. We were brave and went off the village green and onto the circular walk. It’s normally busy with dogs but lots of space and people tend to have control.

We bumped into two sets of dogs in quick succession a little reaction but he did re oriente back to his treats. After a little potter we headed back as I spotted a man with two labs who didn’t look like they had great recall. As we headed back we saw two more labs. He didn’t react ate his treats. 

My issu


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

It cut me off my issue is lack of hands I’m trying to jolly him along and give treats, today I had a poo bag to it was a fumble.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I wish I could post some of Penny's XC interactions. 
Yesterday she did a whole routine of "middle," "touch," "back," and heeling with one of my runners. Not worried about where I was either. 
Of course then she nearly took out a younger kid biting his shoelaces  He thought it was hilarious too which was not helpful.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> It cut me off my issue is lack of hands I'm trying to jolly him along and give treats, today I had a poo bag to it was a fumble.


Does Loki 'clicker' ?

I ask because I've just cottoned on to this; If I click just before we pass the other dog (at the right distance) then Tod will watch/give me his attention all the way past, because he's watching for the treat that he knows is going to appear because he got a click.

This means you don't have to juggle stuff on the move because the treat can come well after the click, so you get time to sort yourself out.

It's only taken me 11 years to work this one out.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Linda Weasel said:


> Does Loki 'clicker' ?
> 
> I ask because I've just cottoned on to this; If I click just before we pass the other dog (at the right distance) then Tod will watch/give me his attention all the way past, because he's watching for the treat that he knows is going to appear because he got a click.
> 
> ...


He loves his clicker but I'm not sure we are here yet. He might not respond if other doggos are about. That makes sense though.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> So today went quite well. We have use of the car so headed out to the next village at lunch. We were brave and went off the village green and onto the circular walk. It's normally busy with dogs but lots of space and people tend to have control.
> 
> We bumped into two sets of dogs in quick succession a little reaction but he did re oriente back to his treats. After a little potter we headed back as I spotted a man with two labs who didn't look like they had great recall. As we headed back we saw two more labs. He didn't react ate his treats.
> 
> My issu


That's great, he really is making progress!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> That's great, he really is making progress!


We bumped into post office dog yesterday and things did not go so well.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> We bumped into post office dog yesterday and things did not go so well.


Dylan is up and down too, yesterday he reacted to a Rottweiler, luckily it was behind a wire fence!
Hopefully you are having more good days than bad, it's hard to see progress when you're working on it every day. 
Today we were walking in a new area and came across two lovely little pigs in an enclosure - they came trotting up to the fence expecting some food. It was quite a challenge to get Dylan away from them!!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Dylan is up and down too, yesterday he reacted to a Rottweiler, luckily it was behind a wire fence!
> Hopefully you are having more good days than bad, it's hard to see progress when you're working on it every day.
> Today we were walking in a new area and came across two lovely little pigs in an enclosure - they came trotting up to the fence expecting some food. It was quite a challenge to get Dylan away from them!!


 Loki would have had something to say. We try and get out our village he either is friends with the dogs or hates them. I don't think I'll ever change his mind about post office dog. The feud has been so long we forgot why it started.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Loki would have had something to say. We try and get out our village he either is friends with the dogs or hates them. I don't think I'll ever change his mind about post office dog. The feud has been so long we forgot why it started.


Dylan has a few local dogs he will never get on with, they always react to each other and always will I think! 
We are pretty good at spotting dogs he will react to now, but he can still surprise us both ways - we met a one year old male husky in the enclosed bit of our local park who was slightly bigger than Dylan, I was a bit wary. But they greeted each other really nicely at the fence and had a lovely play together. He was a real sweetie though, very laid back and friendly.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2021)

This is my first time posting, so hi everyone! I have a 10-month pup called Finn who is reactive to strangers. I’m still trying to get to grips with this bit of his personality, but trying to do the best I can for him just now. 

We have a behaviourist involved but only had a consultation so far, and our next appointment is not until November. 

we are doing LAT training, and it was going well, but he seems to have regressed a bit. He was doing well in that people could walk past us in the street and as long as we were feeding him treats continuously, he wouldn’t react. Now he seems to turn into a snarling mess whenever anyone walks past, so we are minimising walks near our house and only going to quieter places. Did anyone else have a regression before it got better?

I also just want to check I am actually doing it right. When Finn sees a trigger, I say good then when he looks at me I give him a treat. However sometimes he doesn’t disengage and I give him a chance to disengage but if he doesn’t after about 5 seconds I just feed him treats whilst he is looking at the trigger? Is this ok? I would rather just give him the treat when he looks at me but I have read online that step one is rewarding him whilst looking at the trigger and to treat even if they are not at the stage of disengaging. It seems a bit counterintuitive to me however. 

Thanks in advance for your help! If I have left out any info please let me know


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> This is my first time posting, so hi everyone! I have a 10-month pup called Finn who is reactive to strangers. I'm still trying to get to grips with this bit of his personality, but trying to do the best I can for him just now.
> 
> We have a behaviourist involved but only had a consultation so far, and our next appointment is not until November.
> 
> ...


Hello and welcome. I'm no expert but yes regression very normal can you practice with more distance? I've been using village greens plenty of space and people.

With regards to the treats I prefer for Loki to look at me however sometimes he can't. He gets treats anyway because it stops the reaction. I sprinkle them on the floor so he has to sniff and eat all very calming. If it's a really close distance I just shovel in treats he normally looks at me once it's past and I tell him he's a good boy.

Tagging @O2.0 as she will probably make more sense. What breed is Finn?


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> Hello and welcome. I'm no expert but yes regression very normal can you practice with more distance? I've been using village greens plenty of space and people.
> 
> With regards to the treats I prefer for Loki to look at me however sometimes he can't. He gets treats anyway because it stops the reaction. I sprinkle them on the floor so he has to sniff and eat all very calming. If it's a really close distance I just shovel in treats he normally looks at me once it's past and I tell him he's a good boy.
> 
> Tagging @O2.0 as she will probably make more sense. What breed is Finn?


Hi, thank you for your reply. That seems similar to what we're doing with Finn so that's reassuring. I think I need to get him to look at me a bit more before giving the treat but it's a work in progress! 
He's a Spanish water dog, he came over here at 4 months from Spain so we unfortunately missed the socialisation period. To be honest I was very naive going into this but just trying to do my best for him now!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Hi, thank you for your reply. That seems similar to what we're doing with Finn so that's reassuring. I think I need to get him to look at me a bit more before giving the treat but it's a work in progress!
> He's a Spanish water dog, he came over here at 4 months from Spain so we unfortunately missed the socialisation period. To be honest I was very naive going into this but just trying to do my best for him now!


Just don't be to hard on yourself it does take time. Do you have any secure fields nearby you can rent to practice getting attention in a quiet environment?

Also I worry so much about Loki barking at someone. I ran a marathon today and there were several dogs barking at everyone. Not saying you shouldn't work on it just remember most don't so your doing a great job.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

@Jillmac2605 First of all welcome 
Secondly, distance is your friend  Keep him at a distance where he can see the trigger but doesn't react...some days that distance will be greater than others. Did your behaviourist discuss trigger stacking at all?
If you go back to post #109 (I think) there is a video that I posted of a dog in the initial stages of learning LAT, it might help


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jillmac2605 said:


> I also just want to check I am actually doing it right. When Finn sees a trigger, I say good then when he looks at me I give him a treat. However sometimes he doesn't disengage and I give him a chance to disengage but if he doesn't after about 5 seconds I just feed him treats whilst he is looking at the trigger? Is this ok? I would rather just give him the treat when he looks at me but I have read online that step one is rewarding him whilst looking at the trigger and to treat even if they are not at the stage of disengaging. It seems a bit counterintuitive to me however.


Have you had a chance to read the whole thread yet? I know it's long!  
There is a whole discussion on feeding and voluntary vs. involuntary behaviors and why you can feed when they're not looking at you and when to be careful about it.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> Just don't be to hard on yourself it does take time. Do you have any secure fields nearby you can rent to practice getting attention in a quiet environment?
> 
> Also I worry so much about Loki barking at someone. I ran a marathon today and there were several dogs barking at everyone. Not saying you shouldn't work on it just remember most don't so your doing a great job.


Thank you for your reply. I actually took him to a secure field yesterday but there was no one else around, it was more so that he could get some exercise because I feel like when we are on our normal walks (even quiet ones with very little triggers) he doesn't walk - he will dig his heels if he hears/sees something he doesn't like (e.g. a bird singing) so it can be hard going. 
I know other dogs bark but I do worry about him barking, he lunges and it is actually quite an aggressive bark. He has got worse the last couple of weeks, I don't know if it's adolescence or a regression but it's hard because I did think we were making progress.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Thank you for your reply. I actually took him to a secure field yesterday but there was no one else around, it was more so that he could get some exercise because I feel like when we are on our normal walks (even quiet ones with very little triggers) he doesn't walk - he will dig his heels if he hears/sees something he doesn't like (e.g. a bird singing) so it can be hard going.
> I know other dogs bark but I do worry about him barking, he lunges and it is actually quite an aggressive bark. He has got worse the last couple of weeks, I don't know if it's adolescence or a regression but it's hard because I did think we were making progress.


He sounds like he would get on well with Loki he digs his heels in. Maybe have a few days off walking. It may be he has trigger stacked the last few weeks.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2021)

StormyThai said:


> @Jillmac2605 First of all welcome
> Secondly, distance is your friend  Keep him at a distance where he can see the trigger but doesn't react...some days that distance will be greater than others. Did your behaviourist discuss trigger stacking at all?
> If you go back to post #109 (I think) there is a video that I posted of a dog in the initial stages of learning LAT, it might help


Thank you for your reply, I will go back and have a look at that post yes we have heard of trigger stacking, I thought when the regression happened it might have been because of trigger stacking but he's had a couple of weeks off of 'busy' walks and to be honest he hasn't barked at anyone the last couple of weeks but that's only because we aren't going anywhere with people walking close by us. We live in a flat on a busy street (not the best environment for him) but when we are going to the car from the garden and he sees someone, it's as if he wants to bark and he will pull me a bit and try to lunge but I've managed to either get to the car or our flat before he has actually reacted. Would this still count as trigger stacking do you think?


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> Have you had a chance to read the whole thread yet? I know it's long!
> There is a whole discussion on feeding and voluntary vs. involuntary behaviors and why you can feed when they're not looking at you and when to be careful about it.


Thank you for your reply! I have read the earliest threads and the most recent ones so I will go and have a look at all of them


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> He sounds like he would get on well with Loki he digs his heels in. Maybe have a few days off walking. It may be he has trigger stacked the last few weeks.


I do think about not walking him, I just feel bad that he's not going to get any exercise and I don't think my partner really understands, even though i try and tell him what I've read/learnt online. We can't even really use the garden because we share it with our neighbours and if they came out when we were there Finn would go nuts


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> I do think about not walking him, I just feel bad that he's not going to get any exercise and I don't think my partner really understands, even though i try and tell him what I've read/learnt online. We can't even really use the garden because we share it with our neighbours and if they came out when we were there Finn would go nuts


That's a pain you could do the field for a couple of days. Loki gets worse if he's had lots of triggers. I'm lucky I live in such a quiet place.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> That's a pain you could do the field for a couple of days. Loki gets worse if he's had lots of triggers. I'm lucky I live in such a quiet place.


Yes I wish we lived somewhere quieter! There are a few quiet places within 10 minutes drive so it's not too bad, it's just a bit frustrating that we may see lots of triggers on the way to the car, or in the garden. It feels like there's no getting away from it sometimes! Finn was doing well on our 'pavement' walks until very recently, which is why I'm just hoping it's adolescence or a phase, but I'm too nervous to try him on pavement walks again, I don't think he will be ready again any time soon to be honest.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Yes I wish we lived somewhere quieter! There are a few quiet places within 10 minutes drive so it's not too bad, it's just a bit frustrating that we may see lots of triggers on the way to the car, or in the garden. It feels like there's no getting away from it sometimes! Finn was doing well on our 'pavement' walks until very recently, which is why I'm just hoping it's adolescence or a phase, but I'm too nervous to try him on pavement walks again, I don't think he will be ready again any time soon to be honest.


You have an LGD breed and one with strong herding instincts. He needs lots of exercise and above all a job to do. If you don't already take him to training I would suggest you do and enrol him in activities such as agility or tracking to keep his brain occupied. And if possible find a lake or a river where he can do what he was bred to do - swim.

There is also the Spanish Water Dog Club of the UK which you might like to join,

https://www.spanishwaterdogclub.co.uk/


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> You have an LGD breed and one with strong herding instincts. He needs lots of exercise and above all a job to do. If you don't already take him to training I would suggest you do and enrol him in activities such as agility or tracking to keep his brain occupied. And if possible find a lake or a river where he can do what he was bred to do - swim.
> 
> There is also the Spanish Water Dog Club of the UK which you might like to join,
> 
> https://www.spanishwaterdogclub.co.uk/


Or a doggy pool.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> Or a doggy pool.


I believe the OP lives in an apartment and shares a garden with the oocupants of the other flats.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Jillmac2605 said:


> but when we are going to the car from the garden and he sees someone, it's as if he wants to bark and he will pull me a bit and try to lunge but I've managed to either get to the car or our flat before he has actually reacted. Would this still count as trigger stacking do you think?


Yes this all contributes to trigger stacking.
I don't want to step on your behaviourists toes, do you have regular contact with them? Can you call them to get pointers if needed? Or is it a case of plan written up and no contact until the next appointment?

What does your average day look like? How long do you walk him? Do you do any formal training with him? If so what? Have you had him since a pup or is he a rehome?

With regards to pavement walks it is far too soon to expect him to be able to cope with people walking past so close, so your best course of action is to cross the road so that you can create the space that Finn needs...in the early days it's a lot of backwards and forwards.

It takes 3 days of no triggers for the stress hormones to come back down to a base level...if you get his brain working then it will be a bit easier to skip a walk or two but as you live in a flat it's obviously important that he gets out at least once a day.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> I believe the OP lives in an apartment and shares a garden with the oocupants of the other flats.


I was thinking of a hired swimming lesson.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2021)

@Magyarmum sorry I tried to reply to you but it wouldn't let me post.

Thank you for your reply. I would actually really like to do agility and/or scent work with him becuase I think he would be good at it. I suppose what's stopped us in the past is 1how he will react to the instructor and 2 cost. The scent work class I was looking at was 30 per session and I suppose if it makes a difference to his behaviour it is worth it but it's a lot of money! We could try and do some scent work ourselves, and this sounds like excuses but it's finding the time! I think we just need to make an effort at the weekends or something like that.
We do try and get him as exercised as much as possible. He gets 30 mins in the morning, 30 in the afternoon and 45-1hour at night. How much of this is actual walking is another story! But then I try and think at least if he's not walking then we are doing some training (LAT). Just trying to do our best in the situation I suppose! It is hard though as I don't feel like we are the best for his needs


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

I do lots of sniffy stuff with Loki. It tires them out mentally. I hide stuff around the garden but you could hide treats or toys around the house. Do you make use of kongs ect ?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2021)

Hi @StormyThai we haven't had much contact with the behaviourist since the consultation, unfortunately becuase of my OH's work, we can only do Friday afternoon appointments and the first one she had available is November so still a while to wait. I am actually going to email her for advice today for what we can do with his walking in the meantime, and also the appointments are going to be online but I would much rather an in person appointment. I don't know how much help she can be if she doesn't see him online. The behaviourist is on the (I think it's called) ABTC(?) website so I think she is a legitimate behaviourist so hopefully she can give us some good advice.

Our typical day is: get up, drive to football fields at 6.45, walk for 30'mins. (As I mentioned, Finn loves a stop start so it's not 30 mins continuously wlaking). Then we get home, I give him half his breakfast in a snuffle May, then half we use for training (look at me, touch, here, middle, place, sit, stay). Then from about 8-11/11.30 Finn naps whilst I work. We then go out again at 12/12.30 for 30 mins, come home, some brain games or training and Finn will sleep for about 2 hours, then maybe some play or brain games for 15 mins in the afternoon and then dinner at 5.30. Again half in the snuffle Mat and half for training. Then we go out for about 45 mins in the evening.

when we were doing pavement walks, we would try and cross the street/ move into driveways etc but if we go on pavement walks he will need to wear a muzzle becuase there is not enough space and his bark/lunge is quite aggressive. I know it's born out of fear but I don't want anyone to get hurt. I couldn't get a parking space near my flat this morning so I will either need to put his muzzle on to walk him to the car (but it's hard to feed treats when the muzzle is on) or go down, get my car, go back up get Finn, go down put him in the car and then repeat when we get back! I might end up doing some ball throwing in the garden and scatter feeding instead. I just feel a bit bad if he doesn't get walked (I know he probably doesn't mind tbh since he doesn't seem to want to walk when we are out anyway!


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2021)

Hi @Boxer123, we do have a Kong. I have only really used it in the past when we have been going out to keep him occupied , I might try it with him today for something for him to do in the afternoon though. I have just been putting yoghurt and pb in it, so you have any other suggestions that Loki likes?


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I keep all our cardboard food boxes and toilet roll tubes and put treats in, like a pass the parcel really, lots of layers and parcel tape round it. He loves them! I also scatter his dinner round the garden.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2021)

@Barkingmad57 great idea with the toilet roll tubes! Finn loves when I keep any cardboard boxes and fill them with treats and paper, and then he gets to destroy the box haha. I might have a look this afternoon to see if we have any in any cupboards for him!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

A couple of things stand out to me (obviously this is without meeting Finn so I can only go on what you describe)
What muzzle are you using? Has he been conditioned to wear the muzzle so that he doesn't bother with it?

I'd avoid pavement walks until you have a bit more of a handle on the engage/disengage part...the more he practices the better he will get, and at the moment he will have a surge of hormones flooding his system due to puberty...dogs can be absolute horrors during their teenage faze but so long as you stay consistent and carry on building those foundations he will come through it, honest!

Have you got any nosework/scentwork classes near you? Getting him to use his olfactory system *with *you is a game changer for many dogs, especially as it really helps the relationship.
You can do other formal training as well as your behaviourist...if they are any good they will help you to look for a good scent detection trainer near to you


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Hi @Boxer123, we do have a Kong. I have only really used it in the past when we have been going out to keep him occupied , I might try it with him today for something for him to do in the afternoon though. I have just been putting yoghurt and pb in it, so you have any other suggestions that Loki likes?


Loki has a layer of raw meat, layer of soft cheese and layer of peanut butter then hooman freezes it.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2021)

Hi @StormyThai, it's a Baskerville muzzle so that he can pant but it's not as easy to shove treats in his mouth if I can see a reaction about to happen haha. We are desensitising him to it, still work to do but he doesn't mind it too much and it's ok for short period of times.
The adolescent phase is hard! He has started doing young puppy behaviour that he actually never really did before (counter surfing, chewing anything that is not his even though he has antlers, Nylabones, rope toys - you name it!)

we are persevering, it's just hard going right now. I forgot to say in my last reply to you he is a rescue dog, we got him at 4 months. I was naive going into this as we have only recently realised he was from a puppy farm (by reading between the lines) and the rescue (who got him at 8 weeks) told us they were socialising him and he is not socialised well unfortunately. Of course we missed the socialisation period as we only got him at 4 months so I think all we can really do now is desensitise and counter condition him.
I really like the sound of scent work, there is a class close to us, it is quite expensive but maybe it will be a worthwhile investment if it helps him


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Hi @StormyThai, it's a Baskerville muzzle so that he can pant but it's not as easy to shove treats in his mouth if I can see a reaction about to happen haha. We are desensitising him to it, still work to do but he doesn't mind it too much and it's ok for short period of times.
> The adolescent phase is hard! He has started doing young puppy behaviour that he actually never really did before (counter surfing, chewing anything that is not his even though he has antlers, Nylabones, rope toys - you name it!)
> 
> we are persevering, it's just hard going right now. I forgot to say in my last reply to you he is a rescue dog, we got him at 4 months. I was naive going into this as we have only recently realised he was from a puppy farm (by reading between the lines) and the rescue (who got him at 8 months) told us they were socialising him and he is not socialised well unfortunately. Of course we missed the socialisation period as we only got him at 4 months so I think all we can really do now is desensitise and counter condition him.
> I really like the sound of scent work, there is a class close to us, it is quite expensive but maybe it will be a worthwhile investment if it helps him


Perhaps the Spanish Water Dog Club UK might be able to give you information about trainers/behaviourist and various classes near to you that are suitable for the breed.

They also have a Facebook website where you could meet other owners.

https://www.facebook.com/ukswdc


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2021)

Thank you @Magyarmum that looks like a good resource! I think I will give them a message later. I may also message the rescue we got him from, they might have some advice for us.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki let himself down today it all went wrong; my timing was off, we had loads of distance I don’t know what went wrong.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Loki let himself down today it all went wrong; my timing was off, we had loads of distance I don't know what went wrong.


Oh don't stress! Sometimes shit happens. Chalk it up to an off day and tomorrow is a new day


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

We have off days too - then he totally surprises me in a good way on the next walk!! Sometimes they just get out of the wrong side of the bed........


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2021)

Had a win and a loss today. Finn would not walk to the car, he got about 75% of the way there but I couldn’t get him to move any further. Sometimes if I start to jog it gets him moving but even that didn’t get him going. 
BUT we saw three different people (at a decent amount of distance but still) and no reaction! He looked at the trigger and disengaged as well so I was pleased with that. We played in the garden and did some training instead so hopefully that is enough to tire him out this morning.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Had a win and a loss today. Finn would not walk to the car, he got about 75% of the way there but I couldn't get him to move any further. Sometimes if I start to jog it gets him moving but even that didn't get him going.
> BUT we saw three different people (at a decent amount of distance but still) and no reaction! He looked at the trigger and disengaged as well so I was pleased with that. We played in the garden and did some training instead so hopefully that is enough to tire him out this morning.


 That's a good win, well done both of you!
Training and play have always tired Dylan out pretty well, he'll be fine without a walk. I always feel guilty too if Dylan misses a walk but always try and make up for it!


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## Guest (Oct 6, 2021)

@Barkingmad57 thank you! Yes I feel bad not taking him on a proper walk. The behaviourist said if he didn't want to walk then don't make him but I think he needs the exercise! We will (fingers crossed) take him to the beach tonight which he likes.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Oh don't stress! Sometimes shit happens. Chalk it up to an off day and tomorrow is a new day


I'm blaming post marathon tiredness I forgot what I was doing.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I'm blaming post marathon tiredness I forgot what I was doing.


You can definitely blame post marathon tiredness for the next month at least


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

We had a much better lunch walk today. We went up to the woods which are quiet. We only saw one man the whole hour but Loki checked in well for his treats. There were lots of sniffs so he had his head down most of the way. Then he decided he didn't want to leave woods so sat down for 5 minutes. (He can't be good all the time)


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 477616
> View attachment 477617
> View attachment 477618
> View attachment 477619
> We had a much better lunch walk today. We went up to the woods which are quiet. We only saw one man the whole hour but Loki checked in well for his treats. There were lots of sniffs so he had his head down most of the way. Then he decided he didn't want to leave woods so sat down for 5 minutes. (He can't be good all the time)


He and Grisha have been whatsapping each other about the best way to annoy your hooman. A sit down strike wins every time


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> He and Grisha have been whatsapping each other about the best way to annoy your hooman. A sit down strike wins every time


Ha ha must be it's so annoying especially on lunch walks when I need to be back. He does it on the road outside and it looks like I'm abducting him.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2021)

Morning all, quick question - what do you do if your dog refuses to go out for walks? Two mornings I’m a row Finn hasn’t wanted to walk. At least yesterday we got 75% of the way to the car, he wouldn’t even leave the garden this morning!

Our behaviourist said not to make him walk which is fine, but even after playing in the garden and doing training for 40 mins he is still full of energy and getting into everything.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Morning all, quick question - what do you do if your dog refuses to go out for walks? Two mornings I'm a row Finn hasn't wanted to walk. At least yesterday we got 75% of the way to the car, he wouldn't even leave the garden this morning!
> 
> Our behaviourist said not to make him walk which is fine, but even after playing in the garden and doing training for 40 mins he is still full of energy and getting into everything.


This is one problem we don't have he normally stops dead on the way home. Will Finn get in the car ? What's he like once he's out?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Morning all, quick question - what do you do if your dog refuses to go out for walks? Two mornings I'm a row Finn hasn't wanted to walk. At least yesterday we got 75% of the way to the car, he wouldn't even leave the garden this morning!
> 
> Our behaviourist said not to make him walk which is fine, but even after playing in the garden and doing training for 40 mins he is still full of energy and getting into everything.


Have you checked his harness and collar to see if they're fitting correctly and not chaffing somewhere?.

Years ago one of my dogs refused to walk much beyond the front gate. It took me several days to realise I'd been putting the harness on back to front. Once it was on the right way again we had no more problems.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> This is one problem we don't have he normally stops dead on the way home. Will Finn get in the car ? What's he like once he's out?


Finn loves to stop on his walk too, but not normally on the way home, if he knows we are close to our flat he will walk quickly like he is eager to get back. He is fine in the car, no car sickness and no hesitation to get in or anything like that. Once he's out he's generally ok, he will stop a lot and look around/sniff the air, also stops if he sees a trigger. Some days are better than others getting him out, and he's generally better going out later in the day/in the evening. It is our morning walk we are having the most trouble with just now.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2021)

Magyarmum said:


> Have you checked his harness and collar to see if they're fitting correctly and not chaffing somewhere?.
> 
> Years ago one of my dogs refused to walk much beyond the front gate. It took me several days to realise I'd been putting the harness on back to front. Once it was on the right way again we had no more problems.


I think his harness fits ok but I will double check, thanks!


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I sometimes have this problem with Dylan, I think it's when I am feeling stressed. If things are getting to you maybe your stress levels are high and Finn is picking up on it? Only a guess based on my experience


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

At the moment so long as he is getting a chance to toilet then I would stick to games around the house or somewhere close to home.
Honestly get yourself into some scent classes...10 mins of using his nose properly will wear him out


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

We had a win/loss day today!! Dylan greeted OK a dog he's always been really reactive to. He was off lead with another dog he knows and they both sniffed him, I don't think he would have been so brave on his own though. The dog in question is a male Presa Canario, a lovely dog but everything Dylan usually hates.
Then five minutes later he pulled me into a bush reacting to a Staffie cross, in the melee the lead slipped out of my hand 
No real harm done but the ladies with the Staffie were a bit scared, I apologised and on we went. Lesson learnt, I usually wear grippy gloves when the lead gets wet but left them at home. They're now in the car ready!!
I think he used all his courage up with Big Black Dog.......


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2021)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I sometimes have this problem with Dylan, I think it's when I am feeling stressed. If things are getting to you maybe your stress levels are high and Finn is picking up on it? Only a guess based on my experience


He probably does pick up on my stress levels to be honest, and I know it's not good for him but I do find it stressful taking him out because of his reactivity. I am also stressed with work at the moment so that's another factor as well!


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2021)

StormyThai said:


> At the moment so long as he is getting a chance to toilet then I would stick to games around the house or somewhere close to home.
> Honestly get yourself into some scent classes...10 mins of using his nose properly will wear him out


I actually messaged one of the scent work classes near me this morning to see what their experience with reactive dogs is and if it would be suitable for Finn. Fingers crossed!


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2021)

Barkingmad57 said:


> We had a win/loss day today!! Dylan greeted OK a dog he's always been really reactive to. He was off lead with another dog he knows and they both sniffed him, I don't think he would have been so brave on his own though. The dog in question is a male Presa Canario, a lovely dog but everything Dylan usually hates.
> Then five minutes later he pulled me into a bush reacting to a Staffie cross, in the melee the lead slipped out of my hand
> No real harm done but the ladies with the Staffie were a bit scared, I apologised and on we went. Lesson learnt, I usually wear grippy gloves when the lead gets wet but left them at home. They're now in the car ready!!
> I think he used all his courage up with Big Black Dog.......


Yaaay go Dylan! A win always feels nice. I hope you are ok though after he pulled you into the bush!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> We had a win/loss day today!! Dylan greeted OK a dog he's always been really reactive to. He was off lead with another dog he knows and they both sniffed him, I don't think he would have been so brave on his own though. The dog in question is a male Presa Canario, a lovely dog but everything Dylan usually hates.
> Then five minutes later he pulled me into a bush reacting to a Staffie cross, in the melee the lead slipped out of my hand
> No real harm done but the ladies with the Staffie were a bit scared, I apologised and on we went. Lesson learnt, I usually wear grippy gloves when the lead gets wet but left them at home. They're now in the car ready!!
> I think he used all his courage up with Big Black Dog.......


Oh dear they are embarrassing I feel like I should wear a 'I'm sorry' t shirt when out with Loki.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Only my dignity hurt! There was a couple watching the encounter  and oh yes an "I'm sorry, my dog is a lunatic sometimes" vest would be very useful!!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Well loki has been I good boy. I feel bad work has been so busy we haven't been out of the village to train. This morning a spaniel raced towards him 100 miles an hour. He went flat but didn't react. Then he bounced up and was ok as they passed.

We then bumped into a local dog walker who we haven't seen for ages. Loki loves her and so they had a big cuddle.

As this was going on another dog walked by and he barely noticed.

He also walked past my neighbour who was whaking mole hills with a shovel.

A good boy for now.


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## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Whisp has been a star so far, no big dramas, she has seen quite afew dogs and has accepted lots of treats.

We did have a bark at an off lead Schnauzer the other day but it did invade her space (owner was miles away up the beach) so that was fair enough.

She's been nice and calm with the odd bit of excitement when she sees the sea.

We went to a castle yesterday which she seemed very comfortable with, although she took an aversion to a man in a rain hat and backed away whenever he appeared, not sure what that was about.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Beth78 said:


> Whisp has been a star so far, no big dramas, she has seen quite afew dogs and has accepted lots of treats.
> 
> We did have a bark at an off lead Schnauzer the other day but it did invade her space (owner was miles away up the beach) so that was fair enough.
> 
> ...


Well done Whisp that's super good and hooman will probably take you on more holidays now.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I got permission to post some kid interactions on instagram 
Penny will work for the kids if they have food, makes me happy to see. Not just her working for someone else, but seeing how drivey she is about the food. I feel like building that food drive has really opened up opportunities for her


__
http://instagr.am/p/CUvkjbUAnOh/


__
http://instagr.am/p/CUvpRtzgXcc/


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I got permission to post some kid interactions on instagram
> Penny will work for the kids if they have food, makes me happy to see. Not just her working for someone else, but seeing how drivey she is about the food. I feel like building that food drive has really opened up opportunities for her
> 
> 
> ...


Love it I saw this on instagram. Loki would be up for this.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Guess who has smashed it ! Not only did we manage to not bark or react today but we managed to keep walking past two sets of dogs and not react when a mc doodle was going nuts at the sight of him.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Way to go Loki!!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Love it I saw this on instagram. Loki would be up for this.


Loki would love her new flirt pole game too 

Speaking of dealing with reactivity, over-arousal, distractions...
I had the very dumb idea to let Penny run along with our runners while they were doing sprints, which turned in to biting shoes (shoelaces) which the kids thought was hilarious so they encouraged it, which turned in to screaming potato Penny when kids ran by and I wouldn't let her chase.

So.... I decided to change the target from shoes to flirt pole. Yesterday was our first attempt, I had one of my runners go out with the flirt pole and released Penny to chase, she targeted the flirt pole toy, totally uninterested in his feet - success! 
Now that I know she loves this, I can use it for all sorts of things - like recall too. We will definitely be practicing this more!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Loki would love her new flirt pole game too
> 
> Speaking of dealing with reactivity, over-arousal, distractions...
> I had the very dumb idea to let Penny run along with our runners while they were doing sprints, which turned in to biting shoes (shoelaces) which the kids thought was hilarious so they encouraged it, which turned in to screaming potato Penny when kids ran by and I wouldn't let her chase.
> ...


I need to invest in a flirt pole she looked like she was having fun.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I need to invest in a flirt pole she looked like she was having fun.


They're pretty easy to make. I've made them out of old lunge whips I had laying around. The one I have for Penny was a cheapo at the feed store, for a Loki sized dog, I'd get a proper one though. Make sure you get the kind that has an easy way to switch the toy out. You can put their favorite toy on it, a ball, one of those velcro toys you can stuff treats in... Whatever your dog goes crazy for.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Another day another step forward. Loki is far more reactive when on the street close to our house. As we walked back from the field this lunch a couple appeared with a spaniel. Loki reacted a bit so we had some treats and waited for them to go ahead and had a cuddle to calm down.

We started to go and they decided to walk back and hover outside a house opposite mine. The path is thin Loki clocked them but we managed to walk past and into our house with a bit of nonsense but manageable (probably looked like a shit storm to them) The fact he's kept taking his treats was amazing.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Well today didn’t go so well. Loki was doing his pee mail when a Frenchie came around the corner. I didn’t have much time to react and we were on a grass in a field. I explained he was reactive, he had his vest on and his nervous lead, there was oddles of room but she still chose to walk really close past us. 

He went into a down and had she given some room might have been ok (there was so much room I was against a hedge but she could have swung wide) loki went absolutely nuclear. The worst explosion in ages  i think because he went flat she didn’t take on what I was saying.

He did meet his friend later in the walk and was ok.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> Well today didn't go so well. Loki was doing his pee mail when a Frenchie came around the corner. I didn't have much time to react and we were on a grass in a field. I explained he was reactive, he had his vest on and his nervous lead, there was oddles of room but she still chose to walk really close past us.
> 
> He went into a down and had she given some room might have been ok (there was so much room I was against a hedge but she could have swung wide) loki went absolutely nuclear. The worst explosion in ages  i think because he went flat she didn't take on what I was saying.
> 
> He did meet his friend later in the walk and was ok.


Some period are so rude and inconsiderate clearly she could see you and that Loki is in training, it wouldn't have taken much for her to move out the way a bit but it would have made a difference for Loki. Anyway, even if you weren't in training, why do people have to walk so close - I wish social distancing was still a thing


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Some period are so rude and inconsiderate clearly she could see you and that Loki is in training, it wouldn't have taken much for her to move out the way a bit but it would have made a difference for Loki. Anyway, even if you weren't in training, why do people have to walk so close - I wish social distancing was still a thing


It's a shame his distance now is a couple of metres that's all he needs. I think sometimes people don't believe he's reactive as he goes flat. I met a lady with a collie a few days ago and she was great kept a good distance said hello to him he was fine.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> It's a shame his distance now is a couple of metres that's all he needs. I think sometimes people don't believe he's reactive as he goes flat. I met a lady with a collie a few days ago and she was great kept a good distance said hello to him he was fine.


Im sure it won't have hampered any of his progress and he had a good walk with his friend so that's a win!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Im sure it won't have hampered any of his progress and he had a good walk with his friend so that's a win!


He's not losing any sleep over it


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Woken up with a sore swollen wrist. Lucky we have a few sessions at the field over the next few days.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Boxer123 said:


> It's a shame his distance now is a couple of metres that's all he needs. I think sometimes people don't believe he's reactive as he goes flat. I met a lady with a collie a few days ago and she was great kept a good distance said hello to him he was fine.


If people are inconsiderate dicks I look them directly and say "REALLY" in the most sarcastic way possible... announcing their doucheness to the world actually makes some stop and think... well some will stop and think, others just think that you are asking for the world


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> If people are inconsiderate dicks I look them directly and say "REALLY" in the most sarcastic way possible... announcing their doucheness to the world actually makes some stop and think... well some will stop and think, others just think that you are asking for the world


I felt a bit bad I think she was one of these 'I want my puppy to meet everyone' Loki was down on the floor and looked harmless I'm not sure she believed me  hopefully a lesson learned for her now.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2021)

We had a bit of a trying walk today, and to be honest Finn was pretty good for the most part, it was just so busy! Where we’ve been going lately, we’ve only ever seen 2 people on different occasions so pretty quiet and could get a decent walk in. There was about 5 cars in the car park today so I knew it was going to be busy but as soon as we got out the car, Finn saw another dog and started to growl and bark. He is actually pretty good with other dogs but just not when he is on the leash. So waited until he calmed down, then started to walk and walked for about 5 mins before I saw another dog. So I try and get Finn to go back the way we came, when he spots another dog and puts the breaks on. So I pull to get him moving which I don’t like doing but it’s either that or let him have an outburst which I also don’t want - what do you think is better? 

Once he gets going we jog back the way we came, but I don’t want to encourage him to be nervous of other dogs, by pulling him and getting him to run in a different direction, do you think it’s possible I’m doing that?

Honestly I think he feels the tension from me when I see another person and dog which I need to stop doing it’s just much easier said than done! 

he’s been pretty good with seeing people recently on our walks but today a man was walking towards us and so I try and cross the road. Again he puts the breaks on but we really did need to move (very narrow pavement so no other place than to cross the road) and he starts growling/ barking, at a much greater distance than where we’ve recently got to. Hopefully just a bad day! I just feel like I’m making him worse.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> We had a bit of a trying walk today, and to be honest Finn was pretty good for the most part, it was just so busy! Where we've been going lately, we've only ever seen 2 people on different occasions so pretty quiet and could get a decent walk in. There was about 5 cars in the car park today so I knew it was going to be busy but as soon as we got out the car, Finn saw another dog and started to growl and bark. He is actually pretty good with other dogs but just not when he is on the leash. So waited until he calmed down, then started to walk and walked for about 5 mins before I saw another dog. So I try and get Finn to go back the way we came, when he spots another dog and puts the breaks on. So I pull to get him moving which I don't like doing but it's either that or let him have an outburst which I also don't want - what do you think is better?
> 
> Once he gets going we jog back the way we came, but I don't want to encourage him to be nervous of other dogs, by pulling him and getting him to run in a different direction, do you think it's possible I'm doing that?
> 
> ...


Loki is very similar he will put the brakes on if he sees another dog. We have done a lot of work on, '123 let's go' however this doesn't always work. Or he only moves a bit.

If I can't get away I try and create as much space as possible and pop him between my legs and squeeze, I scatter his treats. It depends on the amount of space.

It is difficult not to let them sense your tension. Can you let him off the lead ?


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> Loki is very similar he will put the brakes on if he sees another dog. We have done a lot of work on, '123 let's go' however this doesn't always work. Or he only moves a bit.
> 
> If I can't get away I try and create as much space as possible and pop him between my legs and squeeze, I scatter his treats. It depends on the amount of space.
> 
> It is difficult not to let them sense your tension. Can you let him off the lead ?


That's a good idea with the 1,2,3 I will have to try that. We have also been working on middle so I will try that too thanks 

he has really good recall if we are in a place with zero distractions. We go hillwalking almost every weekend and we have no issues with recall but if he was off the lead and saw a dog he would run up to the dog to play and I wouldn't be able to get him away! He's fearful of humans as well so he does need to be on the lead when there is a chance that we will see someone unfortunately


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

If Dylan puts the brakes on a "Find it" with treats usually gets him going, if not I just wait until the dog is far enough away then do a "let's go". I hate dragging him too, would rather find another way - he's too big anyway. 
Loki is doing really well if he only needs a couple of metres distance!! 
Dylan still needs way more than that for some dogs.
We were keeping out of the way of a very large white boxer in the park yesterday, felt like I was on a military exercise.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

One thing that popped in my mind this morning that I think is an unrealistic expectation for most dogs, even more so for those that are fearful is passing other dogs on our narrow pavements.
Especially as the majority of people do not train their dog to walk past dogs without going crazy... unless there is a grass verge making the pavement wider and the other owner does not have a flexi then I cross the road to pass, if I see a dog up ahead stopping for a wee or poop I will slow down until they are done or cross the road.
Thai is perfectly capable of being close to other dogs these days without being a douch (not fearful, just dog intolerance that was left unchecked for 3 years), we stood 2foot away from a lovely gent and his lovely GSD yesterday morning having a chat while the dogs ignored each other...we still wouldn't pass on a narrow path, especially head on.

Just a random thought as I drink my morning tea


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

StormyThai said:


> One thing that popped in my mind this morning that I think is an unrealistic expectation for most dogs, even more so for those that are fearful is passing other dogs on our narrow pavements.
> Especially as the majority of people do not train their dog to walk past dogs without going crazy... unless there is a grass verge making the pavement wider and the other owner does not have a flexi then I cross the road to pass, if I see a dog up ahead stopping for a wee or poop I will slow down until they are done or cross the road.
> Thai is perfectly capable of being close to other dogs these days without being a douch (not fearful, just dog intolerance that was left unchecked for 3 years), we stood 2foot away from a lovely gent and his lovely GSD yesterday morning having a chat while the dogs ignored each other...we still wouldn't pass on a narrow path, especially head on.
> 
> Just a random thought as drink my morning tea


I avoid narrow paths at all costs unfortunately to get back to my house there is a short walk on a thin path. It's mostly my neighbours using it and they tend to cross over when they see us.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

There seems to be quite a lot of reactive dogs round here, or is this nationwide and I only see a little bit.

We passed a BC pup the other day, and gave it as much space as the lane would allow, but it dropped flat, then lunged, barking and growling. It was on lead and the owner told it it was silly, and dragged it on.

There are several reactive dogs, including 2 GSDs ( which always seems extra-sad to me because usually they’re so trainable) where I walk on the local old golf course. All kept on lead so easy to avoid.

But the sad thing is that none of the owners seem to be trying to do anything to help their dogs, and presumably think this is just what their dogs do.

Sad that these dogs will spend their lives thinking they have to be defensive and the owners can’t or won’t help them.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

It doesnt help that so many people got dogs during the pandemic then could not socialise them because of lockdowns. Also some have never had dogs before and had no real idea how to train them so I guess we must expect more reactive dogs out and about in the real world.

Its much harder to train a nervous dog too, even a GSD, than a confident one which is why building confidence when they are young is so important. But that doesnt mean an older nervous dog should be thought of as a lost hope. Its a lot of work and some probably cannot or will not put in that extra work to help them though. Its easier to take them out when its quiet and not bother with all that training malarkey. I know that's the case with my GSD, 5 home Sam, he needed lots of training and didn't get it until he was fostered then came to me. 

Some dogs are just more nervous than others of course and will always be like that and will need life long management and careful social interaction. Some may never be able to interact with other dogs. But for those like my Sam that have simply been neglected through ignorance and a lack of training, its a crying shame if their owners don't do everything possible to try and help them overcome their anxiousness because a confident dog has a much happier life than one who is often on edge. Living in fear is stressful.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> because a confident dog has a much happier life than one who is often on edge. Living in fear is stressful.


This, so much this. 
A fearful/nervous dog will indeed always be a fearful/nervous dog, but there is SO much you can do to build that dog's confidence, help them build effective coping skills, and teach them how to ask for help (and be there to give it to them). And the more experience they have building confidence, the more confident they become, it's a giant positive spiral that gets bigger and bigger and their world gets bigger and better. 
Letting a nervous dog just continue to be nervous without doing anything to make it better just kills me. Or worse, encouraging that nervousness which some owners do subconsciously because they get something out of having a 'problem' dog.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Speaking of confident dogs, I'm so proud of Penny and how she's growing. 
I don't know if you can see this clip, but about halfway through you can see her spook and then immediately recover and choose to come back and "work." Bonus, because 'hop hop' is such a highly rewarded behavior, even though it involves people, it ended up being a confidence boost to do that right after spooking. 

__
http://instagr.am/p/CVTWvR5AUJU/

Related note, I was listening to DFTT today and they were talking about training for resilience. Train the dog in such a way that if you do have a set-back they can recover from it quickly, and they have confidence in the training 'game'.

There really is so much you can do for a fearful dog, they don't have to stay that way forever.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki had a good walk today met with Ronnie and Reggie the labradoodles and was nice and calm. My sister is visiting this week so we will be going out with Sox loki tends to be worse with him but we will see how he goes.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lots of thoughts gelling together in my head with fearful dogs. 
Ken Ramirez and talking about training for resilience, Suzanne Clothier and talking about helping the dog feel safe...
I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a whole lot of patience for fearful dogs and have likely overfaced Penny on more than one occasion. Yesterday I took her through the carwash, I knew she would hate it, BUT, I also knew I could help her feel safe. She hides in my armpit when things are too much. Just eyes sometimes, eyes and ears if the situation is particularly scary.





Her terrier/FOMO/curious side kept popping up - literally, she would pop her head out of hiding and try to see what was going on. With time, she will get over this fear too. All I needed to do was support her through it and be her 'safe space'.

I shared the end too for the body language aspect. She does a shake-off, her eyes are still worried, and there's a lip lick at the end. She's still very worried and this is not the time to do anything other than tell her how brave she is and continue to support her.
We did the bank drive-through after that, which she loves, and that helped


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I was really proud of Gwylim last week. 

After we'd been to Immigration we walked back into town down the road where Gwylim had completely lost the plot over a dog barking furiously behind a high solid double gate, Knowing the dog would probably bark as we passed by the gate, Gwylim and I crossed to the other side of the road. 

Sure enough the dog started barking, but not before Gwylim had been told "Come on, quick march, one, two, one two" and we were moving at a brisk pace. Bless him, he gave a little "humph" and that was it! 

Grisha by contrast took no notice of the dog and decided to do a poo instead


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Eating his ham with Sox whilst there is a dog in the distance.


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2021)

So we’ve not been having good walks with Finn recently

basically I will go to take him out in the morning, and he will refuse to walk. He will edge out of the gate a little bit and then just stop and sniff the air and is just generally on edge. This is not the biggest issue as at that time of the morning we can play in the garden/do training(although I think a walk would be more beneficial) but he also refuses to do the toilet in the garden so he won’t toilet outside now! 
Our lunchtime walks have been generally better but the last few days he’s started to do the same thing at lunchtime where he won’t walk. I can’t let him off lead in the garden at lunch so it’s mainly sniffy games/training that we can do. He’s not overly energetic or anything like that if he doesn’t go on his walks but I feel like we are regressing. 

When we first got him this is the type of behaviour he exhibited on walks, but he did manage to get over it and we could walk outside. I don’t know why we’ve regressed. 

Has anyone experienced this before? Or any advice?
Thank you in advance.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Jillmac2605 said:


> So we've not been having good walks with Finn recently
> 
> basically I will go to take him out in the morning, and he will refuse to walk. He will edge out of the gate a little bit and then just stop and sniff the air and is just generally on edge. This is not the biggest issue as at that time of the morning we can play in the garden/do training(although I think a walk would be more beneficial) but he also refuses to do the toilet in the garden so he won't toilet outside now!
> Our lunchtime walks have been generally better but the last few days he's started to do the same thing at lunchtime where he won't walk. I can't let him off lead in the garden at lunch so it's mainly sniffy games/training that we can do. He's not overly energetic or anything like that if he doesn't go on his walks but I feel like we are regressing.
> ...


How old is Finn now? About a year? He may be going through a second fear period.

Depending on your relationship, I would be tempted to jolly him on, insist that he continue walking. If you think that will backfire though, don't. And for sure don't insist and then back down as that becomes negative reinforcement and you're actually reinforcing the refusing to walk on.

There are some things that I basically don't give the dog a choice about. Going where I ask you to go is one of them. I'm not going to be stuck somewhere with a dog refusing to move. But I make sure it's not a big deal either.

ETA:
When you're trying to get a 'stuck' dog to move, it's important to keep oppositional reflex in mind. Basically it's a reflex, the dog isn't necessarily doing it on purpose. If you pull, they pull against that pressure. If you push, they push against that pressure. So you have to move them in other ways. Sometimes getting the dog moving in a circle that moved slowly in the direction you want them to go, sometimes walking backwards or sideways in the way you want. You have to get creative.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

I have a lat question:-

Sam's got the measure of this Lat game. Mr Crafty looks at the trigger, looks at me for his treat, looks back at the trigger, looks back at me for another treat and on it goes. He is now getting on average 3 treats for a single passing human being. Clever boy.

So should I reward for each look away from the same trigger or just the first look, ignoring any that follow?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

cbcdesign said:


> I have a lat question:-
> 
> Sam's got the measure of this Lat game. Mr Crafty looks at the trigger, looks at me for his treat, looks back at the trigger, looks back at me for another treat and on it goes. He is now getting on average 3 treats for a single passing human being. Clever boy.
> 
> So should I reward for each look away from the same trigger or just the first look, ignoring any that follow?


Is it stopping the reaction? Loki has a lot of treats because he needs them.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> Is it stopping the reaction? Loki has a lot of treats because he needs them.


Advice I have been given is to not get the dog so close to a trigger that it provokes a reaction, just close enough that the dog is able to see the trigger but is far enough away that he is under threshold and able to look at me for a treat. I gather the idea being to de-sensitise and gradually reduce the separation distance between Sam and the trigger.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

cbcdesign said:


> I have a lat question:-
> 
> Sam's got the measure of this Lat game. Mr Crafty looks at the trigger, looks at me for his treat, looks back at the trigger, looks back at me for another treat and on it goes. He is now getting on average 3 treats for a single passing human being. Clever boy.
> 
> So should I reward for each look away from the same trigger or just the first look, ignoring any that follow?


Keep treating, treat treat treat until the trigger passes.

Initially the treats are classic conditioning, watch him over time and you will eventually see that classic conditioning start moving in to operant conditioning. At this point you can put more parameters on the behavior. But make sure he always has an easy and clear path to reinforcement.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Speaking of LAT, reactivity and all that jazz...

I was trying to get a video to demonstrate letting a dog move away from the scary thing (water bottle), when a dog decided to walk by. 
Enjoy a mild version of the screaming potato. Unfortunately a lot of it happens off camera, but the sound quality is good 
When you see my feet turn around I've picked her up and I'm turning my whole body away from the dog to try and keep her from going full screaming potato. 
Oh the joys of owning obnoxious dogs.... :Woot


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> How old is Finn now? About a year? He may be going through a second fear period.
> 
> Depending on your relationship, I would be tempted to jolly him on, insist that he continue walking. If you think that will backfire though, don't. And for sure don't insist and then back down as that becomes negative reinforcement and you're actually reinforcing the refusing to walk on.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply! I do try and jolly him on but I do back down so I will stop doing that. It makes me nervous when he stops because he always stops in the busiest places, which is not ideal since he reacts to people and dogs as well.

your idea of getting him to move in a circle or in a different way sounds good, I will try that thank you


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Speaking of LAT, reactivity and all that jazz...
> 
> I was trying to get a video to demonstrate letting a dog move away from the scary thing (water bottle), when a dog decided to walk by.
> Enjoy a mild version of the screaming potato. Unfortunately a lot of it happens off camera, but the sound quality is good
> ...


Even her outbursts are cute! 
I had Fly next to me when I watched that and he was really quite intrigued by her noises!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

My sister has been very impressed with Loki today he ignored two sets of dogs and took his treats. We have had a nice week of walks only one out burst. Distance is still our friend and people are actually responding to the coat and recalling their dogs.

Tomorrow will be the test we are going to the seaside for the weekend.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> Even her outbursts are cute!
> I had Fly next to me when I watched that and he was really quite intrigued by her noises!


The decibels can get a lot louder  Particularly if there's a possum outside and I'm not letting her out fast enough because "OMGMOMHE'SGETTINGAWAY!!!!!!" 
This is her 'behaving' 

Actually, sometimes she's able to see another dog walk by and not even make weird noises. Yesterday was not that day...


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> Keep treating, treat treat treat until the trigger passes.
> 
> Initially the treats are classic conditioning, watch him over time and you will eventually see that classic conditioning start moving in to operant conditioning. At this point you can put more parameters on the behaviour. But make sure he always has an easy and clear path to reinforcement.


OK thanks.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki has been amazing !! I can't believe we have walked down a public beach without him reacting. For anyone starting out it can get better.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 478656
> Loki has been amazing !! I can't believe we have walked down a public beach without him reacting. For anyone starting out it can get better.


Good boy Loki! 
It's lovely when you finally see all your hard work paying off


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 478656
> Loki has been amazing !! I can't believe we have walked down a public beach without him reacting. For anyone starting out it can get better.


The Schnauzer boys say you're letting them down. They say if you keep on being a goody two shoes, they'll be the only norti ones left and that's not fair!

Their hooman keeps asking them "Why can't you be good boys like Loki"?


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> The Schnauzer boys say you're letting them down. They say if you keep on being a goody two shoes, they'll be the only norti ones left and that's not fair!
> 
> Their hooman keeps asking them "Why can't you be good boys like Loki"?


He's still a little norti of course. He tried to pull me down the peak yesterday when it started raining. Overall a good boy.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

OMG Penny is a singing potato :Hilarious:Hilarious Thai woke up and started howling :Hilarious
That tail lift at the beginning though was a lovely clear indicator that she wanted to start, but I loved how she disengaged with her name at the end


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> OMG Penny is a singing potato :Hilarious:Hilarious Thai woke up and started howling :Hilarious
> That tail lift at the beginning though was a lovely clear indicator that she wanted to start, but I loved how she disengaged with her name at the end


LOL her tail is a big tell for sure. That's more terrier-ness than fearfulness on her part. But still needs working on.

I mentioned this in the other reactivity thread, but the other thing that's cool about capturing all of it on video is you get to see the whole buildup -> reaction -> wind-down pieces of a reactive episode. There are 3 very clear parts of her reaction. I still have her in the beginning and end, totally lose her in the middle, but that's okay because if I can build on the beginning and end, the middle will get shorter and shorter and eventually go away all together.

And of course she doesn't always react to other dogs. That dog was straining at the leash and staring at her, that's too much for her to pass up. A calmer, less interested dog I probably could have held her together longer.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> That dog was straining at the leash and staring at her, that's too much for her to pass up. A calmer, less interested dog I probably could have held her together longer.


Yes...because a dog straining at the leash is sending all kinds of mixed up body language I find most over reactive dogs really struggle with the leash strainers.
That and the noise that dogs make when they are straining was one of Thai's biggest "irks"

But yeah back to your video, I love how clear it is that your support helped her through it all as well...I'm pretty sure if you hadn't given her that support and picked her up she would have gone full on screaming potato...the fact that she was able to still register you will expressing her complete displeasure is awesome 

I kind of wish that Thai was pocket sized when he was at his worst :Hilarious


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Loki has had an interesting couple of days. Yesterday he bumped into a ghost and a zombie. This was a bit scary he did bark but kept going. This morning a lab came running at him barking he kept his cool owner finally recalled their dog. Loki moved on.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> I kind of wish that Thai was pocket sized when he was at his worst :Hilarious


I keep finding benefits to smol dogs! 

Granted I've also known a fair few terriers who turn in to pirañas when over aroused and they're not quite as easy to just pick up and handle :Hilarious


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Granted I've also known a fair few terriers who turn in to pirañas when over aroused and they're not quite as easy to just pick up and handle :Hilarious


Surely that's when walking in a bite suit comes in handy :Hilarious:Hilarious:Bag


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

This morning we passed a really big black on lead Lab which lunged at Tod, even though we were crossing the road to get some distance, and he was just so intense with his snarling, barking etc that Tod did just have to have a go back. Briefly.

But the woman on the end of the lead did nothing, just dragged her dog .past.

Why don’t people realise that there’s stuff they can do to make it all less dramatic?
Why do they just let it happen?
Why do they think it’s ‘just what dogs do’.

Rant oveeeer.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Linda Weasel said:


> Why don't people realise that there's stuff they can do to make it all less dramatic?
> Why do they just let it happen?
> Why do they think it's 'just what dogs do'.


I think sometimes people genuinely don't know that their dog doesn't have to act that way. 
I'm so glad I have 35-ish kids watching me work with Penny and teach her to be okay with new things and not feel the need to react. Watching the kids watch Penny learn I realize how little they know about how 'good' dogs get there. They don't come out of the box fully programmed


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

No video because this is outside someone's house and I don't have permission to use their cat for training or posting it online so just a picture but to me it speaks a thousand words...









She would have been lunging, snarling and being a general douche if we were this close to a cat not so long ago...moving cats are still a work in progress but she is show definite improvement there too


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> No video because this is outside someone's house and I don't have permission to use their cat for training or posting it online so just a picture but to me it speaks a thousand words...
> View attachment 478822
> 
> 
> She would have been lunging, snarling and being a general douche if we were this close to a cat not so long ago...moving cats are still a work in progress but she is show definite improvement there too


And she's calm!!! Wow. Yeah, we're definitely not there with cats at all.... Our cats she will mostly interact with nicely, but she can get rough and snappy with them and I have to watch her very closely. Cats she doesn't know must die. We had a stranger cat in the yard the other day and Penny was incensed!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> And she's calm!!!


I know!!!
We have been gently plugging away with LAT each and every single time we see a cat...sometimes more successfully than others...when the cats owner popped out to see what we were up to (random stranger hanging outside their front door early in the morning so I don't blame them for wanting to check it out :Hilarious) she did have a bit of a grumble but I am honestly chuffed to bits with her...next is birds, which she is very good at catching so we shall see how that goes :Bag


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> I think sometimes people genuinely don't know that their dog doesn't have to act that way.


That's so true. A chap that lives in my town has a reactive dog and occasionally passed my field where I train Sam. He allowed his dog to lunge aggressively at the wire fence through which his dog could see Sam. I pointed out to him that allowing this was bad for both dogs, that cortisol builds up within the blood stream and that my trainer says it does more harm than good. I knew myself it was bad of course but thought he would take it better knowing as he does that Sam and I are using a professional to help with reactivity issues, if he thought I was just passing on professional advice. I have not seen him since so I hope he looked into what I said and realised he was doing more harm than good with his approach.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Yesterday while we were on our pack walk we came across a huge Great Dane, the dogs were ahead of us, so didn't spot him at first. Because his friend Mabel rushed up to say hello, Dylan greeted him too. They sniffed each other and Dylan seemed interested rather than worried, probably trying to work out if he was a dog or a pony!! His name is Desmond and he is a giant softie. 
I think if Dylan had met him without his "pack" he would have reacted, it makes such a difference.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

The ups and downs. Managed to pass several people beautifully then on the final stretch he has a pop at my neighbour. On the plus side for three quarters of the walk I had an impeccably behaved dog.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2021)

Boxer123 said:


> The ups and downs. Managed to pass several people beautifully then on the final stretch he has a pop at my neighbour. On the plus side for three quarters of the walk I had an impeccably behaved dog.


I know how you feel, Finn loves to behave himself all walk then let himself down at the last minute


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> I know how you feel, Finn loves to behave himself all walk then let himself down at the last minute


Don't want us getting to relaxed. Loki hates this women don't know why she's very nice.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

So here we are after 5 or so weeks walking past a cat on a loose leash without being a douche 





If a cat runs out in front or randomly appears out of nowhere then we still have work to do, but I'm pretty happy with this.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> So here we are after 5 or so weeks walking past a cat on a loose leash without being a douche
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow that's awesome! Way to go bearded dog!!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Quick update mr reactive pants managed to walk past a Xmas BBQ and music which has popped up on the village green a bit scary but he took his treats happily.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Quick update mr reactive pants managed to walk past a Xmas BBQ and music which has popped up on the village green a bit scary but he took his treats happily.


Way to go Loki!! And mum too of course


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Way to go Loki!! And mum too of course


He's doing really well he even played with a Dalmatian today at the field. Still a douche to the dogs he doesn't like.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Quite upset this morning and I know I shouldn’t let it get to me. Walked down the river with Loki, Sox and my sister. As we walked down one footpath we were chased by a cockerpoo barking then running back to its owners who were miles away. It then ran really close barking it’s head off. Neither of my boys reacted amazing. Owner finally got dog after I shouted at her. 

We continued on lovely walk as we re entered the village we see a second cockerpoo off lead. So I swing really wide and waited 5 minutes whilst she attempted to recall her dog. She finally catches her dog. Loki lets out a few barks but doesn’t lunge or growl. As we walk past I ignore her and focused on loki. 

She calls out, ‘is he nasty?’ 
Me: No nervous and this one has arthritis.
Her; he should have a muzzle.
Me: why he’s not doing anything?
Her: Dogs and children are unpredictable (no child in sight) he could suddenly rip someone apart.

At this point I’m getting angry loki is stood not reacting doing nothing. 

This goes on and on. In the end I walk away. As I did Loki’s friend the mountain dog came around the corner and she got to witness him saying hello bring a friendly boy.

But yes this morning I have been accused of having a dog who could rip someone apart. Worse thing is he didn’t react to anything this morning and kept walking whilst we were chased.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> She calls out, 'is he nasty?'
> Me: No nervous and this one has arthritis.
> Her; he should have a muzzle.
> Me: why he's not doing anything?
> Her: Dogs and children are unpredictable (no child in sight) he could suddenly rip someone apart.


Sorry but I would have laughed in her face. 
What ridiculousness. Your dog is clearly behaving lovely (yay for hard work paying off!) and clearly no danger to anyone, her dog is the one with no recall and behaving unpredictably and she's going to make you out as the bad guy. Yeah... ridiculous. 
Don't let it get to you. I know you have to worry about the DDA but I wouldn't for things like this.

Next time she tells you he should have a muzzle tell her hers should have a leash


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Sorry but I would have laughed in her face.
> What ridiculousness. Your dog is clearly behaving lovely (yay for hard work paying off!) and clearly no danger to anyone, her dog is the one with no recall and behaving unpredictably and she's going to make you out as the bad guy. Yeah... ridiculous.
> Don't let it get to you. I know you have to worry about the DDA but I wouldn't for things like this.
> 
> Next time she tells you he should have a muzzle tell her hers should have a leash


I know it was so ridiculous I could understand if loki was kicking off but it was literally because I didn't want our dogs meeting she jumped to loki may rip someone apart one day.









I was proud of him today he's come so far.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

She was probably cross at herself for her dog’s bad behaviour and took it out on you.

You, Sox and Loki did well. Your training and commitment have so paid off.

Sadly no amount of training will extinguish stoopid !


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Linda Weasel said:


> She was probably cross at herself for her dog's bad behaviour and took it out on you.
> 
> You, Sox and Loki did well. Your training and commitment have so paid off.
> 
> Sadly no amount of training will extinguish stoopid !


I know i shouldn't let these things bother me but was just so shocked. I should be grateful most people are lovely.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

So this morning I was brave and took loki for a Christmas Eve walk with sister, Sox and Loki. It was really busy loki managed really well even when he got barked at by smol dogs. We had lots of space. We will be going to the field tomorrow as it will be crazy busy. He's been such a good boy now wrapped up in his blanket watching the traditional Christmas movie IT.


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

Boxer123 said:


> I know i shouldn't let these things bother me but was just so shocked. I should be grateful most people are lovely.


Its hard not to react to clueless cretins like that. I find most people are reasonable and understanding too, its the odd moron we encounter from time to time, fortunately they seem to be few and far between.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

cbcdesign said:


> Its hard not to react to clueless cretins like that. I find most people are reasonable and understanding too, its the odd moron we encounter from time to time, fortunately they seem to be few and far between.


I know I'm still angry now being accused of having a dog that might rip someone apart just because I didn't want her doodle running up to us.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

She'd be shocked to know that her cute little doodle could rip someone apart too if it really wanted to!


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Rufus is okay with other dogs, but I thought you'd all be proud that I channeled my inner PF member today! Rufus had already had his ball stolen once at the park, so when another dog ran out of no where, Rufus didn't want to play, he just wanted to potter about with his ball. This other dog did want to play so started chasing Rufus and pushing him over. We got hold of Rufus to keep him still, and when we finally saw the other dog owner we asked him to recall. He made some half hearted attempt and strolled slowly over. I asked him to be a bit quicker and he said he couldn't because of health issues. So I firmly told him to not have his dog off lead if he wasn't able to recall him. Am quite annoyed!! Seemed to be a lot of obnoxious dogs in the park with oblivious owners today. I'd be mortified if that was Rufus!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Emlar said:


> Rufus is okay with other dogs, but I thought you'd all be proud that I channeled my inner PF member today! Rufus had already had his ball stolen once at the park, so when another dog ran out of no where, Rufus didn't want to play, he just wanted to potter about with his ball. This other dog did want to play so started chasing Rufus and pushing him over. We got hold of Rufus to keep him still, and when we finally saw the other dog owner we asked him to recall. He made some half hearted attempt and strolled slowly over. I asked him to be a bit quicker and he said he couldn't because of health issues. So I firmly told him to not have his dog off lead if he wasn't able to recall him. Am quite annoyed!! Seemed to be a lot of obnoxious dogs in the park with oblivious owners today. I'd be mortified if that was Rufus!


Poor Rufus. I think NY day brings out the numpties I went running in a popular dog walking spot yesterday and it was chaos big dogs charging at little ones who weren't interested, I got chased. Lucky the boxers were at home.


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

Boxer123 said:


> Poor Rufus. I think NY day brings out the numpties I went running in a popular dog walking spot yesterday and it was chaos big dogs charging at little ones who weren't interested, I got chased. Lucky the boxers were at home.


Yeah, usually the park we go to has dogs around but not loads. Today it was super busy! So we tried to steer clear because Rufus just wants to chase his ball and I didn't want to encourage other dogs away from their owners by chucking balls around near them. We're lucky that generally Rufus doesn't mind other dogs, and does like to play now and again, but I just can't understand these dog owners that let their dogs run so far ahead of them that half the time they can't even see what their doing!


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2022)

Boxer123 said:


> Poor Rufus. I think NY day brings out the numpties I went running in a popular dog walking spot yesterday and it was chaos big dogs charging at little ones who weren't interested, I got chased. Lucky the boxers were at home.


Agree with NY bringing out all the numpties. Went to an enclosed dog park yesterday and some idiots had a bag of chocolates lying on the ground to share out. My dog went in and sniffed their bag and they moved it away and gave my dog a telling off. First of all dont leave anything on the ground at a dog park that you don't mind a dog getting and secondly Why would you have a bag of chocolates and leave them out for dogs to potentially get? They were idiots for other reasons as well but this really annoyed me


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Jillmac2605 said:


> Agree with NY bringing out all the numpties. Went to an enclosed dog park yesterday and some idiots had a bag of chocolates lying on the ground to share out. My dog went in and sniffed their bag and they moved it away and gave my dog a telling off. First of all dont leave anything on the ground at a dog park that you don't mind a dog getting and secondly Why would you have a bag of chocolates and leave them out for dogs to potentially get? They were idiots for other reasons as well but this really annoyed me


That is truly stupid did you tell the owner ?


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2022)

Boxer123 said:


> That is truly stupid did you tell the owner ?


Yes I said exactly that they shouldn't leave anything on the ground that they didn't want a dog getting into and especially chocolate at a dog park. Not that they took much notice of me! It was the first time we had been back there and ages and can't say I am rushing to go back


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

At the dog park I used to use a few people brought their toddlers in, not a good idea with random dogs dashing around!


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## Guest (Jan 5, 2022)

Barkingmad57 said:


> At the dog park I used to use a few people brought their toddlers in, not a good idea with random dogs dashing around!


Some people just have no common sense ‍♀


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I have a problem I've posted separately about, but would appreciate your views! So since October I haven't taken Dylan out on my own, had a couple of walks when I struggled to hold on to him when reacting and dropped the lead.
I've always had to make myself walk him and never enjoy it. I feel I need to get over this, but it got to the point where Dylan refuses to leave the house unless my husband is with him. 
I can take him in the car if my husband puts him in, but if we both feel unsafe while out together is it bad for him and his reactivity?


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## Guest (Jan 6, 2022)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I have a problem I've posted separately about, but would appreciate your views! So since October I haven't taken Dylan out on my own, had a couple of walks when I struggled to hold on to him when reacting and dropped the lead.
> I've always had to make myself walk him and never enjoy it. I feel I need to get over this, but it got to the point where Dylan refuses to leave the house unless my husband is with him.
> I can take him in the car if my husband puts him in, but if we both feel unsafe while out together is it bad for him and his reactivity?


I know how you feel when you say you don't enjoy walking Dylan, I feel the same with my dog too. Do you have a garden? Maybe you could do some training and playing in the garden to build both of your confidences up before you try taking him somewhere?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I have a problem I've posted separately about, but would appreciate your views! So since October I haven't taken Dylan out on my own, had a couple of walks when I struggled to hold on to him when reacting and dropped the lead.
> I've always had to make myself walk him and never enjoy it. I feel I need to get over this, but it got to the point where Dylan refuses to leave the house unless my husband is with him.
> I can take him in the car if my husband puts him in, but if we both feel unsafe while out together is it bad for him and his reactivity?


I felt that way with Grisha when I first had him. What I did was to find a good trainer who was happy to either come to my home or meet me and the dogs somewhere in town. We did loads of training in a variety of different places and environments including supermarket car parks, town centres, vet visits and parks where he'd meet other dogs. After a year of weekly lessons I had a dog who is now virtually bomb proof.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I will start doing more training and stuff at home, it has lapsed over the winter I do admit! And I am thinking of going back to a trainer too, just rather skint after Christmas, so maybe in spring. 
Meantime I may take him out in the car for short walks, (my husband has to put him in the car!) to get started. I am the one who was doing the LAT when we were out, but being with me may make him more nervous in the first place!!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I have a problem I've posted separately about, but would appreciate your views! So since October I haven't taken Dylan out on my own, had a couple of walks when I struggled to hold on to him when reacting and dropped the lead.
> I've always had to make myself walk him and never enjoy it. I feel I need to get over this, but it got to the point where Dylan refuses to leave the house unless my husband is with him.
> I can take him in the car if my husband puts him in, but if we both feel unsafe while out together is it bad for him and his reactivity?


I think they do pick up on your nerves. My confidence has been knocked since bumping into that women. What do you walk him in ? Loki is on a harness and long line but I have w short lead I clip onto his front ring if needed I feel secure I won't let go.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> I think they do pick up on your nerves. My confidence has been knocked since bumping into that women. What do you walk him in ? Loki is on a harness and long line but I have w short lead I clip onto his front ring if needed I feel secure I won't let go.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I use a harness and 5m long biothane lead. It's great for letting him have a bit of freedom, but not so easy to hang onto when he kicks off!! I have been thinking of trying something different, maybe a traffic handle on the harness. Have tried a head collar but he hates them!


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> I think they do pick up on your nerves. My confidence has been knocked since bumping into that women. What do you walk him in ? Loki is on a harness and long line but I have w short lead I clip onto his front ring if needed I feel secure I won't let go.


I find you have more control over a dog if you use a longer lead. All mine are at least 1.80 metres long which means if you have to you can hold it with both hands. My favourite though is a double ended 2.40 metre lead which can be used as a normal lead clipped onto the back ring or as a double lead by being clipped onto the front ring of the harness.

Absolutely essential for me is a handle on the back or the harness,


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I use a harness and 5m long biothane lead. It's great for letting him have a bit of freedom, but not so easy to hang onto when he kicks off!! I have been thinking of trying something different, maybe a traffic handle on the harness. Have tried a head collar but he hates them!


This is our 2.40 metre double ended lead. Grisha's not looking very happy though because he didn't want to go home and refused to move. He might look small but actually is large for a Mini Schnauzer weighing at nearly 14 kgs which is heavier than my first Shar-Pei


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> I use a harness and 5m long biothane lead. It's great for letting him have a bit of freedom, but not so easy to hang onto when he kicks off!! I have been thinking of trying something different, maybe a traffic handle on the harness. Have tried a head collar but he hates them!


Does it have a front attachment? I either use a double ended like @Magyarmum or when we are running I wear a short lead around my waist and clip on when needed it gives so much more support.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Boxer123 said:


> Does it have a front attachment? I either use a double ended like @Magyarmum or when we are running I wear a short lead around my waist and clip on when needed it gives so much more support.


His harness doesn't have a front attachment, I did try one but it constantly dragged the whole harness to the side and didn't seem to make much difference 
I have a 2m Halti and can attach it to the harness and collar if I need more control. I did find a 3m version of this online so might give that a go!


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> His harness doesn't have a front attachment, I did try one but it constantly dragged the whole harness to the side and didn't seem to make much difference
> I have a 2m Halti and can attach it to the harness and collar if I need more control. I did find a 3m version of this online so might give that a go!


So loki does this but if I also have a lead on the back clip it pulls straight. I have perfect fit and it is a good fit so tends to stay in place.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> So loki does this but if I also have a lead on the back clip it pulls straight. I have perfect fit and it is a good fit so tends to stay in place.


The harness needs to be well fitting and then it won't distort. I've recently bought the boys new Julius K9 Longwalk harnesses which unfortunately doesn't have a front ring, Quite expensive but being designed with a bit of "give" does make a difference when the dog pulls which luckily mine don't do very often.

https://shop.julius-k9.com/hu/kutya...M7Ioybajn2y3gCpw3rJdzBVyBprHxfJoaArYZEALw_wcB


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Barkingmad57 said:


> but if we both feel unsafe while out together is it bad for him and his reactivity?


Sorry but yes, if you don't feel confident and safe, he's not going to feel safe. 
I feel strongly that we shouldn't be asking more of our dogs than we're able to do ourselves, and if we tend to get upset and easily rattled, it's not fair to hold the dog to a higher emotional standard than we're at. 
So to that end, a lot of reactivity training is human training too. Fortunately, the same things that work for dogs, work for humans 

Have a plan and practice it. Practice things like about face and moving out of the way, practice what to do when the dog kicks off. 
Even for things like how to talk to other dog owners. Seriously! Practice having a heated conversation and keeping your cool. Have a standard response and practice repeating it even as you feel yourself get agitated. 
Practice checking yourself. Are your shoulders getting tight up towards your ears? Are you rounding your chest (and making it harder for you to breathe?) Practice relaxing your shoulders down, opening up your chest and taking a deep breath. That's also why I tell people to sing. You have to breathe when you sing.

And trust me, your dog picks up on your body language, they know when your chest is tight, your heart rate is up and you're breathing is shallow. I promise they know! You can control those things. And the more you gain control over yourself, the more you're able to help your dog


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> Sorry but yes, if you don't feel confident and safe, he's not going to feel safe.
> I feel strongly that we shouldn't be asking more of our dogs than we're able to do ourselves, and if we tend to get upset and easily rattled, it's not fair to hold the dog to a higher emotional standard than we're at.
> So to that end, a lot of reactivity training is human training too. Fortunately, the same things that work for dogs, work for humans
> 
> ...


Thanks for this, I know it's me who's has to change first. I feel sad that I'm not the confident owner he needs, but am willing to try!
I'm planning to do little walks and also take the lead for a while when my husband and I are out together as a start.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Barkingmad57 said:


> Thanks for this, I know it's me who's has to change first. I feel sad that I'm not the confident owner he needs, but am willing to try!
> I'm planning to do little walks and also take the lead for a while when my husband and I are out together as a start.


It really is difficult not to be nervous when walking a reactive dog so don't beat yourself up. If I feel myself getting tense I sing to loki or play a silly game with him to try and shake it out (as Taylor Swift tells us)


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## cbcdesign (Jul 3, 2014)

I must say I dont believe in using a long line on a reactive dog if he or she is likely to kick off, lunging and barking if he or she sees a trigger. If you are nervous that the dog can suddenly sprint forward, the longer leash will allow the dog to build momentum which makes outbursts far harder to manage and that is what you are doing if an outburst occurs, managing the situation.

I use a short leash when walking my reactive GSD Sam, freedom has to be earnt so no long line for him for a while. And yes, occasionally through no fault of our own a dog will appear round a blind corner, Sam will kick off and I have to manage him, a short lead just makes that much easier which in turn gives me confidence which is important.

Having a reactive dog can be embarrassing, upsetting, frustrating and feel lonely at times too but what I have learnt is threefold:-

1. Space between the dog and the trigger is key. Keeping that separation between dog and trigger large enough so the dog isnt over threshold is vital for lat training.
2. Try to anticipate a reaction by watching the dog closely whilst keeping an eye out for triggers. I notice my dogs ears prick up sometimes and I cant see anything but he can hear it so in this situation, I turn and walk in a different direction to avoid whatever it is he is aware of that I am not.
3. Lots of praise when the dog is doing things correctly. I praise Sam every time a car passes us for example if he doesnt react because when I first adopted him he stupidly tried to attack passing cars so I want to discourage that for obvious reasons and encourage him to just keep walking calmly. Every time the leash loosens he gets praise, if he looks at me he gets praise. I want to let him know when he does things right and build his confidence by doing so.

Its not easy helping a reactive dog, its baby steps but bit by bit if you can avoid outbursts and show him or her what is good, improvement will follow.


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

Thanks very much for all your replies, they are really helpful! 
I took him out yesterday and today, kept away from other people and have gone back to a shorter lead. 
If he seemed to be getting a bit twitchy I distracted him with treats, and it was OK. Just one reaction to someone who came round a corner and surprised us, but we both recovered quickly. 
I really tried to keep myself calm too, and am feeling a lot more positive.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Probably one of the harder things with reactive dogs is finding those quiet walks so you a place to have a calm walk where both you and the dog can relax. 
State parks in the winter are a great place to go here, I don't know what a UK equivalent would be or how feasible that is for most people. 
But yes, being able to go for a walk and know you're not going to run in to many if any people is so important for getting that relationship going.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Probably one of the harder things with reactive dogs is finding those quiet walks so you a place to have a calm walk where both you and the dog can relax.
> State parks in the winter are a great place to go here, I don't know what a UK equivalent would be or how feasible that is for most people.
> But yes, being able to go for a walk and know you're not going to run in to many if any people is so important for getting that relationship going.


I'm very lucky where I live there are quiet places me and loki ran 10km this morning and didn't see anyone. We do go out very early always get the biggest walk in first thing. We also have a village green that is quiet he has a short lunch walk there.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Feeling a bit deflated when supposedly educated "dog people" accuse me of being the reason Zazu is reactive.

'Don't use food' - I feed him too much when all I try to do is keep his focus on me, keep moving and stop him reacting. He can watch calmly but he can't be fixated or bark.
'Don't use a harness' - encourages him to pull, gives no control.
'Don't fuss him or give him attention' - You're rewarding the bad behaviour.

Apparently Zazu is guarding me because I give him too much food and attention, he is too attached to me. 

He isn't guarding me, he couldn't care less who approaches me - when someone goes to touch him, he'll move into me and I'll fuss him and give him some reassurance but apparently I'm encouraging the bad behaviour. So I didn't do that and he reacted but still moved into me, imo that's fear reactivity, he isn't guarding me and he comes to me because I'm his safe space, he trusts me. If they give him food or if I feed him/reassure him - he'll settle... well I was ignored.

They took Zazu because I was the problem... used a slip lead because they couldn't hold the harness. He barked constantly - they leash corrected him once and Zazu jumped at the trainer knocking him to the floor, still barking, leash was dropped and Zazu came to me. Trainer never leash corrected him again... asked me for some food and Zazu quickly stopped barking. Maybe I'm wrong but he just needed some reassurance.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

ShibaPup said:


> Feeling a bit deflated when supposedly educated "dog people" accuse me of being the reason Zazu is reactive.
> 
> 'Don't use food' - I feed him too much when all I try to do is keep his focus on me, keep moving and stop him reacting. He can watch calmly but he can't be fixated or bark.
> 'Don't use a harness' - encourages him to pull, gives no control.
> ...


I'd change my trainer if I was you!


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

ShibaPup said:


> Feeling a bit deflated when supposedly educated "dog people" accuse me of being the reason Zazu is reactive.
> 
> 'Don't use food' - I feed him too much when all I try to do is keep his focus on me, keep moving and stop him reacting. He can watch calmly but he can't be fixated or bark.
> 'Don't use a harness' - encourages him to pull, gives no control.
> ...


Sounds like the trainer has no idea what he's doing. Find a new one! Of course sometimes your reaction can cause your dog to worry, like automatically tightening your grip on the lead when you see someone approach, and we need to train ourselves not to tense or the dog picks up on it, but that's not the same as you being the problem!
You are totally right he sounds like he's wary of people approaching. That is a normal phase for some teenage dogs and you being his comfort blanket is totally different to him guarding you as a resource. He needs to feel happier around strangers so using food and play to make him have a positive emotional response to them is key, and then you are there to back him up should he feel worried. 
You know your dog best, you obviously have a great relationship with him, you just need to stand up and advocate for yourself and him and ditch the 'jerk'.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

ShibaPup said:


> Feeling a bit deflated when supposedly educated "dog people" accuse me of being the reason Zazu is reactive.
> 
> 'Don't use food' - I feed him too much when all I try to do is keep his focus on me, keep moving and stop him reacting. He can watch calmly but he can't be fixated or bark.
> 'Don't use a harness' - encourages him to pull, gives no control.
> ...


Yep new trainer you need to be in agreement with them. I've had people tell me loki is guarding me (he's not) and that he's reactive because he's spoilt and gets to sleep on my pillow. I've been told I should eat before him but I snack all day it's like gremlins where's the cut off?


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Boxer123 said:


> Yep new trainer you need to be in agreement with them. I've had people tell me loki is guarding me (he's not) and that he's reactive because he's spoilt and gets to sleep on my pillow. I've been told I should eat before him but I snack all day it's like gremlins where's the cut off?


I was told by one trainer that Georgina and Gwylim were trying to dominate me because Georgina was standing in front of me and Gwylim was by my side, when I was sitting on a bench. Had to admit I was rather rude by telling her she was spouting a load of rubbish. I'd trained them both to stand like than whenever I was sitting down. Needless to say we never went to training with her again.


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## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

Magyarmum said:


> I was told by one trainer that Georgina and Gwylim were trying to dominate me because Georgina was standing in front of me and Gwylim was by my side, when I was sitting on a bench. Had to admit I was rather rude by telling her she was spouting a load of rubbish. I'd trained them both to stand like than whenever I was sitting down. Needless to say we never went to training with her again.


Why do so many trainers think dogs are trying to dominate us I will admit they have me well trained.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

ShibaPup said:


> Feeling a bit deflated when supposedly educated "dog people" accuse me of being the reason Zazu is reactive.
> 
> 'Don't use food' - I feed him too much when all I try to do is keep his focus on me, keep moving and stop him reacting. He can watch calmly but he can't be fixated or bark.
> 'Don't use a harness' - encourages him to pull, gives no control.
> ...


Well that sucks 
Particularly the fussing and giving attention. What's that all about? 
When Penny is being a drama queen I pet her TO calm her down. It works. 
Yes, I think you might need a new trainer. Particularly if this one is getting knocked over by a dalmatian (good boy Zazu  )


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## Barkingmad57 (Nov 26, 2018)

I would imagine food and positive attention will calm a dog a lot quicker than a correction with a slip lead!!


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

Absolutely rubbish ‘trainer’ .

Why would somebody be so arrogant and ignorant as to put a slip lead on somebody else’s dog?

I would go so far as to say that if this person is APBC, APDT or any other professional body then I would report this.


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## ShibaPup (Mar 22, 2017)

Linda Weasel said:


> Absolutely rubbish 'trainer' .
> 
> Why would somebody be so arrogant and ignorant as to put a slip lead on somebody else's dog?
> 
> I would go so far as to say that if this person is APBC, APDT or any other professional body then I would report this.


I paid for their ringcraft class - seemed normal for the group.

When I tried to give my view, I was quickly shot down - if I knew what was wrong then why was I paying for help and why isn't he in the show ring, I felt so small.


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## Linda Weasel (Mar 5, 2014)

ShibaPup said:


> I paid for their ringcraft class - seemed normal for the group.
> 
> When I tried to give my view, I was quickly shot down - if I knew what was wrong then why was I paying for help and why isn't he in the show ring, I felt so small.


What a horrible person/people. 
have experience of 'show people' at a ring craft club I attended (only once) and found them to be cliquey and unfriendly to 'outsiders'.

The obedience class that followed was an absolute car crash.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ok so I have been doing LAT consistently for a bit now with Millie.
I grabbed a short clip from our walk this afternoon...this is what happens when the stimuli (in this case workmen in high viz) becomes a cue (to look at me) instead of a trigger.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

StormyThai said:


> Ok so I have been doing LAT consistently for a bit now with Millie.
> I grabbed a short clip from our walk this afternoon...this is what happens when the stimuli (in this case workmen in high viz) becomes a cue (to look at me) instead of a trigger.


LOVE this!! Exactly as it should go. Oh so nice to see this instead of the other crap all over youtube


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