# Why?!



## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Do people not neuter their cats? 

Why are there SO many accidents? 

I thought it was obvious to have your pet neutered at 6months, almost as routine as having their vaccinations and worming them etc....

The prices are so cheap, why do people come up with such b*llshit excuses all of the time?

:cursing:


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## Akai-Chan (Feb 21, 2009)

It involves time effort and money. Also I don't think many people think of how many litters their beloved cat can create or how many kittens end up in rescues, or even other things like STDs in cats.

Some owners are just irresponsible.

Peace
Akai-Chan


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

some people prefer there cats to grow with natural hormones, maybe they get a sickly kitten and need to wait a while before having her neuterd and she could get out? there are geniune reasons for accidents but i understand what your saying. Some people will make anything up


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Yeah, I guess they are. It really does annoy me though that they can't have that simple op done on their cats! This country should bring in early neutering so cat rescues cat have them neutered before they are homed, it may help a little. Also, pedigree breeders could early neuter then too if they so wished!


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

DKDREAM said:


> some people prefer there cats to grow with natural hormones, maybe they get a sickly kitten and need to wait a while before having her neuterd and she could get out? there are geniune reasons for accidents but i understand what your saying. Some people will make anything up


Yes, if people want to leave their cats a bit older that is fine so long as they are VERY strict about them not going out, same for a sick cat, which if they're sick they should be inside anyways.

I have 8 cats and not one has EVER escaped because I am very very careful so I often thing "the cat just escaped" is a piece of cr*p excuse! :cursing:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> Yeah, I guess they are. It really does annoy me though that they can't have that simple op done on their cats! This country should bring in early neutering so cat rescues cat have them neutered before they are homed, it may help a little. Also, pedigree breeders could early neuter then too if they so wished!


I dont think we will ever be able to stop it it would be great if we could then no unwanted animals. That would be an ideal world


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Indeed it would. It's a shame some people don't bother to listen to their vets when they tell them to neuter them. 

I was just a bit fed up of reading in this breeding section about all the "accidents" I needed to vent a little bit. :wink5:


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> Yes, if people want to leave their cats a bit older that is fine so long as they are VERY strict about them not going out, same for a sick cat, which if they're sick they should be inside anyways.
> 
> I have 8 cats and not one has EVER escaped because I am very very careful so I often thing "the cat just escaped" is a piece of cr*p excuse! :cursing:


I know what your saying i have 6 cats and not one has been out as they are indoor cats. Even if one did ever escape id chase after it and get it back theres a whole load of things that could happen outside


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> Indeed it would. It's a shame some people don't bother to listen to their vets when they tell them to neuter them.
> 
> I was just a bit fed up of reading in this breeding section about all the "accidents" I needed to vent a little bit. :wink5:


Dont worry i fully understand you.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I sometimes feel guilty for having my Siamese. I hate feeling like I've bought cats when loads need homes.  Silly I know!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> I sometimes feel guilty for having my Siamese. I hate feeling like I've bought cats when loads need homes.  Silly I know!


if you buy a cat or rescue its still giving an animal a home.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

True. I have my 2 mogs I got from a lady who was gonna have them as farm cats  i couldn't have them being left to defend for themselves to I kinda gave them a good home


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## NicolaC (Apr 14, 2009)

why are people intent on causing upset on this matter?

I joined up here for a bit of help and support and every so often I feel branded as an irresponsible owner simply because I chose not to put my moggy through a major operation at a young age!


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> Do people not neuter their cats?
> 
> Why are there SO many accidents?
> 
> ...


what do you class as cheap? My sister just been quoted close to £300 for two kittens to be spayed and injections 


i paid £25 tho to get my male done, £55 to get one female done and "120 to get another female done she apprently was pregnant although she was a house cat and hadnt escaped as far as i know but on topic lol apprently they had died and were turning solid or something!


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Sorry but i've not spoken with you so my post was not aimed at any one person.

I'd just like to say it's not a major operation and i bet it's less stress on a cat's body that pregnany and birth, FACT!

Kittens are spayed across the world every day.

Those excuses do not wash with me ~ SORRY! 

Won't say anymore as my post was not meant to be personal, just a general comment about something I feel strongly about.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Daynna said:


> what do you class as cheap? My sister just been quoted close to £300 for two kittens to be spayed and injections
> 
> 
> i paid £25 tho to get my male done, £55 to get one female done and "120 to get another female done she apprently was pregnant although she was a house cat and hadnt escaped as far as i know but on topic lol apprently they had died and were turning solid or something!


Before I got any of my cats I enquired about vaccination and neutering prices and decided if i could afford them. So don't get animals if you can't afford it.

I do think £300 is alot. It prob came to around £150 for 2 of my mogs.


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## donna81 (Jul 12, 2009)

_i took on 4 cats a few months a go(3 girls and a boy) all the girls were pregnant and their owner decided she wouldnt be able to cope(but left it til the last 3 weeks of pregnancy to decide this :cursing I am very strict about the cats staying in and will stay that way until they have been speyed(the male cat was neutered before the girls gave birth so theres no chance of him getting them pregnant) I find it hard to understand how people let their loved family pets have litter after litter without considering their cats health and well being. one of our girls gave birth without problems and all of her babies were fine and healthy, another gave birth with no problems but one kitten died after 2 days, despite us being here to care for him and feed him around the clock. And the 3rd cat had difficulties in labour with the first kitten being born breech, we had to help get the first kitten out and had to help get him breathing. I couldnt imagine putting the cats through that again. 
Yeah kittens are cute and lovely but they are also hard work and expensive when looked after properly. Surely if you truely love your pet you wouldnt put them through it over and over again?_


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> Do people not neuter their cats? ....The prices are so cheap, why do people come up with such b*llshit excuses all of the time?


Gee, thanks a lot! ut:
I hope I'm not included in that  If you weren't reading about mine & other people's litters on this forum, I wonder what prompted your post.

I hope I've been of help to people over the last few weeks; if I hadn't been going through it with my cat for the first time in 10 years, I probably wouldn't have remembered half I learnt 25 years ago, or enjoyed doing so and sharing in the excitement.


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> Before I got any of my cats I enquired about vaccination and neutering prices and decided if i could afford them. So don't get animals if you can't afford it.
> 
> I do think £300 is alot. It prob came to around £150 for 2 of my mogs.


Personally, I have to agree with you on this. If you can't afford to properly care for your pets you need to reconsider whether on not you have them. And for people who really are struggling, there are organisations that can help. Also, having a full litter of kittens is ultimately going to be the more expensive option than paying for your cat to be spayed (unless you really are unscrupulous)

My parents neighbours have tried the "my cat accidentally escaped" excuse 3 times. It's infuriating! :cursing: Their poor cat looked a state after all that her body went through. And they could afford to get their cat spayed, but just didn't bother. Some people are either too lazy or seem to have their pets way down their list of "things to do"!

Personally I'd welcome the idea of early neutering. xx


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## NicolaC (Apr 14, 2009)

I can see where everyone is coming from, but at the end of the day not everyone who loves cats can afford to buy a pedigree as a pet if there were no "moggies" in rescue centres etc..., which ultimately is what would happen if early neutering was enforced.

Would you not then also get illegal breeding of pedigree cats?


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## Dozymoo (Feb 26, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> Gee, thanks a lot! ut:
> I hope I'm not included in that  If you weren't reading about mine & other people's litters on this forum, I wonder what prompted your post.
> 
> I hope I've been of help to people over the last few weeks; if I hadn't been going through it with my cat for the first time in 10 years, I probably wouldn't have remembered half I learnt 25 years ago, or enjoyed doing so and sharing in the excitement.


I'm speaking entirely for myself here. I can understand a one off accident happening to someone who is well intentioned and truely did believe that their cat was safe at home before being spayed.

Unfortunately my sympathies disappear a little when this happens to the same cat again and again, as happened with my parent's neighbour's cat. Eventually the excuses wear a bit thin...

xx


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## Joanne2412 (Jul 20, 2009)

I've just found out my friends cat has 1-2 weeks to go before giving birth but she took both her cats for spaying at the same time and assumed that the op had been succesful...Obviously not!!!


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Joanne2412 said:


> I've just found out my friends cat has 1-2 weeks to go before giving birth but she took both her cats for spaying at the same time and assumed that the op had been succesful...Obviously not!!!


the op has to be sucessful.... they take away the overies and womb dont they?


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

I have a male cat and cant neuter him.I hope he doesnt know what sex is tho.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

WalterKitty said:


> I have a male cat and cant neuter him.I hope he doesnt know what sex is tho.


is he indoors or out? if hes indoors then thats fine, if hes outdoor and un neuterd he may well get into fights and could get serious injuries.


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## fatcatsmum (Apr 9, 2009)

just needed to say that my cat did escape and its not one of those made up storys , ive a male cat thats netured and nother female thats also spayed , princess is going to b spayed , and cat protiction is were shes going while im away said that they will help re:home her kittens and help with the coast of sprayeding her its £60 here . 

i no people do get upset with all the unwanted cats/kittens out there , but inm not one of thenm thanks , im also a registerd foster for dogs , so i do no the responablites and the horries that are out there .


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

We haven't got any cats but the ones we have had in the past have always been neutered as soon as the vet said it was okay.


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## Jazzy (Apr 15, 2009)

WalterKitty said:


> I have a male cat and cant neuter him.I hope he doesnt know what sex is tho.


Why can't he be neutered?


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

people have alot of things they shouldnt do because they cant afford thats life im afraid but whats better the cats get left to be strays? some people have a low income thats life and cant afford to spend that amount of money in one go! Its not about affording it, its just a shocking price for something that takes what maybe 20mins to do for a straight forward spaying?

She did enquire but she did plan to only get one, but well if you have cats you know what its like  and the prices have gone up aswell from when she first phoned. Thankfully shes phoning around to get somewhere abit cheaper rather then go with our normal vets 

If they vets/goverment gave that much care of animals being "done" they do it for the actual costs rather then add a stupid amount they get the pain killers and tablets e.t.c for very little the online vet pescription shops prove this. 

I do agree with you i do think all cats should be done at 6months and better provention to stop a female getting out. Its just a shame they only people who get it free or "donation" from having thier animals are people on benefits and local pdsa's. 

My neighbours cat has been pregnant had a litter then was pregnant again a few weeks after the kitten left. Shes now got a male and female kittens she cant find homes for which are coming up to 6months im telling her every time i see her to get them done or atleast the girl as she'll pregnant and as she is a tiny kitten anyway i imagine it will cause alot of problems  she did have the mum done which cost her £90 as a apprently she was in season which is why i think shes put off having the kittens done as she was told it would cost £45 and ovs budgeted for that amount and had to pay double.


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## DKDREAM (Sep 15, 2008)

Daynna said:


> people have alot of things they shouldnt do because they cant afford thats life im afraid but whats better the cats get left to be strays? some people have a low income thats life and cant afford to spend that amount of money in one go! Its not about affording it, its just a shocking price for something that takes what maybe 20mins to do for a straight forward spaying?
> 
> She did enquire but she did plan to only get one, but well if you have cats you know what its like  and the prices have gone up aswell from when she first phoned. Thankfully shes phoning around to get somewhere abit cheaper rather then go with our normal vets
> 
> ...


I agree with what your saying but people could still manage to get cats neuterd just put away £5 a week untill the total was saved and keep the cat in.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

DKDREAM said:


> the op has to be sucessful.... they take away the overies and womb dont they?


Not all the time my female has her snipped and tied it was a tiny hole op she had a tiny 1cm cut on each side on her tummy.

My other one had everything out which is why is cost me more and she had a stitches and alot of them on her under belly


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think it is because people like having kittens.
I think many people do not *want* to have their cat spayed.
I think it is because they like being the centre of attention among their friends and relatives when their cat has kittens.
I think it is because they don't think of the cats and kittens in rescue, they only think about finding homes for *their* kittens
I think it is because they fool themselves into thinking that they are not adding to the cat problem at all.

They make up stories as to why they haven't had their cat spayed and why she got pregnant, but the bottom line is that they are perfectly happy with her the way she is and if it was politically correct to say so, then they wouldn't have to make up stories.

I am talking about ordinary people here, not those who are in it for money they are a different kettle of fish.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think it is because people like having kittens.
> I think many people do not *want* to have their cat spayed.
> I think it is because they like being the centre of attention among their friends and relatives when their cat has kittens.
> I think it is because they don't think of the cats and kittens in rescue, they only think about finding homes for *their* kittens
> ...


I just hope you're not talking about people on here because I for one am not in it for the publicity or the money (what money?).


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

Jazzy said:


> Why can't he be neutered?


he has a heart condition.I inherited him from my gran when she died and he cant have an anesthetic.he hurt his tail when i closed the dishwasher door on it and he had the tip of it stitched with no anesthetic.He is an indoor cat and doesnt go out even tho he can.He was only supposed to live a short life but hes 8 now and hes really healthy.


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> I just hope you're not talking about people on here because I for one am not in it for the publicity or the money (what money?).


can i ask a stupid question?Why do people breed any animals if its not for money?My friend got a dog from a woman who bred because she wanted to make the breed strong but I never understood what that meant.Is it the same as getting rid of the bad traits some breeds of cats and dogs can have>?I could never breed. Id end up keeping them all


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## jaxx (Aug 10, 2009)

I kept my cat indoors for a year before I was able to get her spayed. I would never have let her out otherwise. As much as I desperately wanted her to have kittens, just so I could have the experience and because I love kittens and wanted to look after them I had her spayed because I knew I'd be contributing to the overcrowding in rehoming shelters. I had to put my own desires away and try and be a responsible cat owner. 

My neighbour breeds pedigree siamese and if she doesn't want her female cat getting pregnant for a while so that she has time to build up her strength etc, she gets put on the feline version of the contraceptive pill. That means she can still go out and won't get pregnant before she's physically rested etc.


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

jaxx said:


> she gets put on the feline version of the contraceptive pill. That means she can still go out and won't get pregnant before she's physically rested etc.


thats amazing.i never heard of that. I wanted a girl kitten i was offered a few months back but i said no because I didnt want to risk her having kittens before she was old enough to be spayed.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

WalterKitty said:


> can i ask a stupid question?Why do people breed any animals if its not for money?


You can ask a stupid question, but you'll get an honest answer. Even after 25 years I still I don't know any honest, reputable cat breeders who make any money out of what they do. There are plenty of dishonest ones out there but the best do it because they love their breed and/or want to do what is right by their cats. If you really want to know the costs involved, just ask.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

jaxx said:


> My neighbour breeds pedigree siamese and if she doesn't want her female cat getting pregnant for a while so that she has time to build up her strength etc, she gets put on the feline version of the contraceptive pill. That means she can still go out and won't get pregnant before she's physically rested etc.


It's very risky, and always has been - it is *not* a substitute for spaying. A queen cannot call time after time without something gonna give. Worst case scenario - she gets a pyo, and that is many the cause of a very promising female show cat never getting to have a litter. It can happen if she is kept in and calls repeatedly; it can also happen if she's given the 'pill' too often, and some cats react badly to it anyway even after one dose. It's not an ideal solution. The original pill for cats was Ovarid: I heard of breeders using something called Perletex from vets; I don't know if there's anything better come along in the last few decades. I will say that a neuter with the right idea is probably the best feline contraceptive device you can get


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

MerlinsMum said:


> If you really want to know the costs involved, just ask.


no thanks LOL i can guess from your tone its not a few quid your talking about.I dont know how you resit the urge to keep them al when its time for them to go to there new homes


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## _soph_ (Aug 3, 2009)

I believe they are talking about people on here Merlins Mum!!

When I first found out about my current situation I scoured "the net" and stumbled across this forum. I spent hours reading thread after thread about pregnant cats and the bests possible care I could offer. When doing this I noticed alot of negative and angry responses to "ordinary people" that had found themselves with expectant kitties asking for advice.

It took alot of courage for me to post the very first time, knowing what most people would think of me. However, I felt that having another avenue aswell as my vet to ask advice would be in the best interest of my cats. Alot of people would perhaps not be as brave!

I do not advocate letting cats breed willy nilly, but again I am not stupid enough to think that this sort of thing does not happen. I know that I would rather ENCOURAGE people to post on this forum. Surely the fact that someone is posting in the first place shows a genuine concern for their cats and should not be treated with contempt but guidance and more importantly HELP AND SUPPORT!! FACT (I hate it when people do that with caps!!!!!!!!)

For the people that have supported me on here I offer my thanks and gratitude - I will post the pictures on here for you to see when Lilly has her babies - For the people that haven't well, If it makes you feel any better you can strip me naked and flog me for my pennance (Actually... don't I may like it!)


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> can i ask a stupid question?Why do people breed any animals if its not for money?My friend got a dog from a woman who bred because she wanted to make the breed strong but I never understood what that meant.


Breeding shouldn't really be about making money.
It is about having a goal in order to make a breed better.
They should have in their mind the "perfect" animal whether that is a better shape or a better coat colour or a better worker or more intelligent, better temperament, healthier etc. etc. or a combination of a whole lot of traits. It is not simply about having a male and a female and just seeing what you get, it is about looking at genetics and how things are inherited and having theories about how things are inherited to get what you want to achieve. Many such breeders spend vast sums of money buying dogs or cats or rabbits or cattle etc. with the right mixture of traits to get closer to their goal. 
The money they get from kittens, puppies etc is incidental and gets immediately ploughed back into their breeding program.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

I wrote this about 11 years ago. It was first published on a Siamese Cat forum, but I agreed for it to go on other people's websites. I retain the copyright but maybe it should have been more publicised!

Anyone who thinks cat breeders make money after reading this.... well.....!!!!

AND it was 11 years ago I wrote this - there are other health issues that have come into play since, other costs and other considerations.

You want to breed cats, chuck them out at 6-9 weeks and ask £100+ for them? No blimming Way....!!!! and that's being polite 

BTW: I would like to see a dog breeder do a version of this Charter.

Read through it and see what every cat born into this world - moggy or pedigree - would _choose_ to be born into if it could:

SICC FAQ


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

When i got decker my first female cat i was told it would cost me 600$ to have her fixed, but i didnt have that kind of money as well as i knew it had to be cheaper.

she went from sept last year till jan this year before getting fixed for 176$.

Horris my male cat ive had since dec/jan and he is now being fixed in a week for 90$

and tidbit my kitten is only 2ish months old so she wont be fixed for awhile yet.

ps. All my cats are indoor tho horris has escaped twice for an extend period of time.


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## thompsonk (Jul 4, 2009)

I'm sorry but all this is really getting on my nerves.

I got Tilda from the RSPCA and was told she was spayed, she wasn't and got pregnant, 6wks before I knew because that's when she started to show.

I totally agree with having cats spayed/neutered because shelters are full of homeless animals. Its not hard to keep doors and windows closed, I've managed it and my house is a very very busy house but there is no way that I would risk Tilda getting out again to get pregnant.

Cats Protection give 5pound vouchers for your cat to get done, even to those who work as I do, I'm not on a low income either so its for everyone. I would be taking full advantage of the voucher is the RSPCA weren't doing it for free as they should have in the first place. 

I also understand what has been said about people being frightened to post on here but I sometimes think that's its more of a closing the door after the horse has bolted. Of course accidents happen despite best efforts and understandable on one occaison but even I knew from Tilda's behaviour and reading posts on here that she would come into/was in call very soon after giving birth. I have never had a cat before and knew nothing about them but have managed to stop my girl getting pregnant again.

Also related to the cost of speying/neutering...don't get an animal if you can't afford to look after it propely and give it a happy, loving, stress free life.

...And breathe xx


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

I have said both of these things before, but here they are again.

1. It seems very inconsistent to me that there are people here who shout their disgust every time anyone mentions having an unneutered moggy, and yet go positively "gooey" when the kitten pictures go up. Moggy kittens come from unneutered moggies!

2. I don't see how those of us who breed pedigree cats, which we do deliberately, can complain when someone wants to have a litter of kittens from their moggy. Bottom line, if nobody bred pedigree cats then the great majority of those who buy pedigree kittens would eventually give up looking and simply go and get a moggy.

And here is a third: there is not a lot of point in any of us complaining about people letting their moggies out to have kittens with any unknown tom cat, unless we are prepared to offer those moggy owners the use of our own stud cats. I have yet to meet even one owner of a properly registered stud who is willing to do that (and yes, we ARE allowed to). Unless people buy two opposite sex moggies from unrelated litters, they are only going to be able to have moggy kittens by letting their cats out - or by finding a moggy or an unregistered pedigree at stud perhaps, and none of us approve of that, do we!

The argument is made that shelters are bursting at the seams and that every moggy kitten deprives a shelter adult of a home. Well, first, I am not convinced that everyone who buys a kitten would have taken on a shelter adult - many adults for example have to go to homes where they will be the only cat, or where there are no children, or where they can have outdoor access. Kittens are much more flexible. Second, we can't use that argument without it being used back at us, because if no kittens were available at all, many who want a cat would eventually settle for a moggy adult (and the rest would simply not have a cat, or a second or third or fourth cat). Third, if shelters really were overflowing at all times of the year, they would be a lot more lenient about who they allowed to have cats, since their choice would come down to that or to destroying healthy cats and getting the bad publicity that would go with that. Fourth, there is a regional variation - as we have seen here several times - with rescue cats actually being in short supply in some parts of the UK. Getting a regular "cat run" to move cats from one place to the other is not difficult, is already done with dogs, and surely would be done if shelters in some parts of the country really were struggling. The summer is always the most crowded time in shelters due to maximum supply and minimum demand, it may be worse this year than last year, but I doubt if things have reached breaking point yet. Shelters are turning away some people who want to rehome their cats, but since some of these reasons for rehoming are non-urgent ("she needs more attention" for example), who can blame them for asking people to wait?

Most of us who breed pedigree cats will at some point have adults to rehome. Each adult we need to rehome takes up a home that might have gone to an adult in a shelter. That is the reality of the situation and there is no point in denying it. I myself rehomed two of my adults last year and am presently looking to rehome a third. Next year I expect to be looking to rehome a fourth and possibly a fifth. This is because I am moving on with my breeding programme and can only keep a certain number of cats. But I can imagine what I would think of someone who put up five adult cats for rehoming in a matter of two years. That will probably not be a regular occurence for me (when I was breeding before, I never rehomed even one adult, which is how I ended up with 30), and I have in fact rescued (and neutered and kept) more moggies than I have rehomed ex-breeding adults, but right now I am sure I do not look good. Not all pedigree breeders do this I know, but those of us who do should be the last people to criticise anyone else for making the shelter situation worse!

Liz


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

Nicely argued Lizward.

Here is a really interesting thread on neutering - whether it should be standard practice before re-homing and whether there are advantages or cons to early neutering

Scroll to bottom for start:

early neutering will never be a solution for unwanted kittens


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## BethanMay (Aug 17, 2009)

because it isn't *so cheap* as you claim. infact, it's very expensive!!

Liz you make a fantastic argument but i wanted to add a point - people have moggies and moggy kittens because they can't afford pedigree cats. I dont know about rescue centres being over run though - i go to one regularly (we donate our paper waste from the office) - they're overrun with dogs, but certainly not cats. out of the six that Tabitha has just had, we only have two left! 
not having your cat neutered though has nothing to do with whether or not you love them; we haven't had tabitha neutered thus far as, yes mainly we've not been able to afford to, but in the back of my mind i've had the concern that i'm playing god and stopping her from having kittens. childish and ridiculous as that may seem to some, i'm much more at ease with having her neutered now that she has experienced what it's like to be a mum.


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

I can assure you that rescues are full of cats and kittens  i know many people that run several rescues around the uk and they are in-undated. I know when i found a stray it was very differcult to find a rescue with room, i would have kept him myself if I didnt have my cats already.

I have an adopted queen and got her a tiffanie kitten as a companion because i of her personality and being indoor cats that had to get on. I dont agree with people letting their cats out to be covered by any old tom that could have all sorts of diseases or pass on genetic problems. There are soooo many moggies needing home i see little point in breeding anymore personally.

Its all very well saying this isnt an ideal world and that of course accidents happen but that doesnt mean we should condone irresponsible ownership. Im not having a go at anyone on here to be honest i havent seen any of the threads that have already been mentioned anyway!

What really annoys me more than anything else is people saying if you cant afford a cats spay/neutering/vacc at least they have a home and are not on the street.... sorry but no people should not have animals they cannot provide the appropriate medical care. If people cannot afford animals they should not have them, owners should be responsible, id go without for my animals.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

There are some other reasons why people chose to leave their pets intact. I have my own concerns about getting BB snipped. I lost a much loved little one to FIP within the last year, and one of the triggers can be stress, so I worry about the stress such an op will but onto BB while he is young. 

Both my older boys have had their berries removed, but being as BB is actually related to the cat I lost, I do worry that he may have a genetic predisposition towards subcoming to FIP if he comes into contact with the coronvirus. He is also going to just be an indoor cat as I'm concerned about him going missing, I'm just fortunate that I have a large place for him to roam in.

I have to be extra careful that he doesn't run out when I'm letting the other cats in/out, but I do understand that accidents can happen... I have a very young brother who can just about remember how to open a door, he wouldnt know not to let BB out if he was over at my place


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think many do come on here merely to show off their moggy kittens. They don't really need any advice, the cat did it all by themselves
The forum is just an extension of friends and family as everyone coos and goes all gooey and the OP becomes "famous" for the day due to her "fantastic" kittens.

No cat *needs* to have kittens, they don't curl up and die just because they haven't had the "joys" of looking after a bunch of kittens. They also have the added "joy" of having the kittens taken away from them at 6-8 weeks in a highly "unnatural" way. I feel that as I said before, people don't *want* to neuter their cat and I feel it is mainly for purely selfish reasons. No matter how many rescue "sob" stories they hear, it just doesn't seem to filter through.

Of course there are "true" oops/accidental matings and pregnant rescue cats and ferals but how many are really the result of it seems to me deliberate actions by the owners?
A six month old kitten of either sex can reproduce, some cats are on heat even earlier, so there is really no excuse for anyone to be letting them out in the wide world unneutered at that age. The inevitable is bound to happen.

I wouldn't want to see moggies become extinct but the true accidental and feral matings would see that that won't ever happen.

I do think _pedigree breeding_ also adds to the cat problem, that is why I feel pedigree breeders should be very accountable and only try to breed cats that will have something to add to the breed, not breed just because they happen to have an unneutered male and female and just because they can.


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Oh dear. My thread was not meant to cause ill feelings. Indeed last night I just wanted to express my thoughts.

My post was not aimed at any one member. Infact my post came after I was browsing the archives of the breeding forum. Posts going way back to early 2008. It just struck me there were alot of accidents.

I know people have a good reason to delay neutering it just got to me how in some cases these accidents could have been prevented quite easily, or a cat could have been spayed etc...

I also want to say that if people want to breed Moggies then I don't have a problem. What I do have a problem with is people who let their girls roam to find a mate risking illness etc....

People can do what they like it's just I wish some one hold their hands up and say yes I wanted her to get pregnant, I wanted a litter of kittens not come up with some story.

I won't say anymore on the matter and lets hope the thread stays nice. :blushing:


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I think many do come on here merely to show off their moggy kittens. They don't really need any advice, the cat did it all by themselves
> The forum is just an extension of friends and family as everyone coos and goes all gooey and the OP becomes "famous" for the day due to her "fantastic" kittens.
> 
> No cat *needs* to have kittens, they don't curl up and die just because they haven't had the "joys" of looking after a bunch of kittens. They also have the added "joy" of having the kittens taken away from them at 6-8 weeks in a highly "unnatural" way. I feel that as I said before, people don't *want* to neuter their cat and I feel it is mainly for purely selfish reasons. No matter how many rescue "sob" stories they hear, it just doesn't seem to filter through.
> ...


Good post.......................


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## carolmanycats (May 18, 2009)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> There are some other reasons why people chose to leave their pets intact. I have my own concerns about getting BB snipped. I lost a much loved little one to FIP within the last year, and one of the triggers can be stress, so I worry about the stress such an op will but onto BB while he is young.
> 
> Both my older boys have had their berries removed, but being as BB is actually related to the cat I lost, I do worry that he may have a genetic predisposition towards subcoming to FIP if he comes into contact with the coronvirus.


I know how you feel, we lost one last year to FIP and whilst we intentionally kept his half brother intact long enough to gain a champion title, we were also very conscious of trying to hold on as late as possible to get past, or as close to, the "danger" period as possible. He gained his title 2 weeks ago and went in to be neutered the following Monday as to be honest he was beginning to be a bit of a "problem". He wasn't spraying but he would wee in inappropriate places, he was also becomming aggressive to some of the other cats and basically, we had taken it to the limit at 16 months old. So far he seems fine, though I am watching him like a hawk, of course. People have said to have one is unlucky, to have 2, even so closely related, go the same way is very uncommon even if the line is predisposed. yes, we were, and still are to a degree, scared of neutering him, but eventually it does become necessary and we just have to hope and pray everything will be OK.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

carolmanycats said:


> I know how you feel, we lost one last year to FIP and whilst we intentionally kept his half brother intact long enough to gain a champion title, we were also very conscious of trying to hold on as late as possible to get past, or as close to, the "danger" period as possible. He gained his title 2 weeks ago and went in to be neutered the following Monday as to be honest he was beginning to be a bit of a "problem". He wasn't spraying but he would wee in inappropriate places, he was also becomming aggressive to some of the other cats and basically, we had taken it to the limit at 16 months old. So far he seems fine, though I am watching him like a hawk, of course. People have said to have one is unlucky, to have 2, even so closely related, go the same way is very uncommon even if the line is predisposed. yes, we were, and still are to a degree, scared of neutering him, but eventually it does become necessary and we just have to hope and pray everything will be OK.


Congrats on your little guy getting his title 

Bentley is Astons (RIP) half brother too  I was planning to wait a maybe a year to get BB done, just so I knew he was bigger and strong enough to cope and hopefully not get too stressed. At 5 months now he's a pretty massive kitten (almost as big as my fully grown moggy!) and seems to be in good health, showing no signs of the stunted growth Aston developed.

People have too told me that to have 2 get FIP would be very unlucky and unlikely statistically, but I guess that doesn't stop us worrying  I'll keep my fingers crossed for your little champ too


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## princessx87 (Feb 26, 2009)

I now know what it takes to have cats spayed!
I had alot of accidental litter, and they was just that
I think its hard pushing the blame around, i mean i have indoor and outdoor cats and its a total nightmare.

Storm: My indoor cat was sunbathing on the garden table and got caught.
(She never moves from the house or garden!)

Princess: My outdoor cat had a hugh fight with a tom, when he got into our house and caught her.

This tom is a nightmare, The owners truly dont care where he is or what he's doing, And i had to pay for mine to live a normal life!
Mine was bullied by this cat so much he would stand out on out bins waiting to attack ours, But since we paid for our to be done, (And the neighbours in the street have kicked a fuss up)The woman seems to keep her cat at bay!




I do think that if you are going to have a cat then get them done!
Like another poster has said, £5.00 a week gets them done!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Sadly I do not know  It's always been the norm in my house - once a cat reaches 6 months it gets the chop.

The woman I rescued Cotton from told me to let her have at least one litter or she would turn nasty. That's funny because my mother has 3 female cats all neutered at 6 months and none of them are nasty   This coming from her whose cat is 2 years old and pregnant with her fourth litter!!


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Sorry I think it is stupid to expect all cases to be exactly the same & that spay/neuter is always the only good option.

I have a two & a half old dog who isn't spayed. I have spent a long time researching & decided not to do it. Am I bad? No. Has she ever had a litter? No. If she had a litter would it be the end of the world? No.

Kittens don't face much problem in finding a home. It's cats that do that either lose their owners to death or to financial difficulties. Sometimes cats come into rescues simply because they stray too far & even because people interfere - I have had to go to a rescue two or three times to claim back a cat that was mine; not having a collar on as a cat hardly means it is homeless when they get up to all sorts of mischief.

I think people should be a lot less judgemental on issues like this. 99% of people who have a pet love it & that should be commended as they give these animals homes at the end of the day.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> Sorry I think it is stupid to expect all cases to be exactly the same & that spay/neuter is always the only good option.
> 
> I have a two & a half old dog who isn't spayed. I have spent a long time researching & decided not to do it. Am I bad? No. Has she ever had a litter? No. If she had a litter would it be the end of the world? No.
> 
> ...


I think the real issue are those with cats unneutered and they let them intentionally stray/think it's cute to let them have kittens/don't understand the risks and/or don't really care.

I have a 9 month GSD who's just coming out of her first season and I won't be having her neutered until she's matured 

Like other people have said I'm not mating them just because they can mate.

I don't think anyone would put you in that category.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

A lot of people don't think it is natural to intervene. I think that is a fair point of view. For example I have spayed my cat & will neuter my kitten for selfish reasons - I do not want to hear a call or clean a spray.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

I think it is down to personal choice, as mentioned some people think its not natural to neuter - personally I agree with neuting especially if you have an outdoor cat I got my boy done and it cost £30 not much imo - however I dont think u can slate all people as we dont always know the full story behind their reasons,,,there are peopel out there who blatantly have no regard for what happens to their pets but thats life!! we cannot make all people see the way we do....

PS My CAT is what u call a "moggie" but I hate that word cos it means he is inferior to Pedigree....in my eyes he is the best!:001_tt2: sorry but I really hate that word!


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> I think it is down to personal choice, as mentioned some people think its not natural to neuter - personally I agree with neuting especially if you have an outdoor cat I got my boy done and it cost £30 not much imo - however I dont think u can slate all people as we dont always know the full story behind their reasons,,,there are peopel out there who blatantly have no regard for what happens to their pets but thats life!! we cannot make all people see the way we do....
> 
> PS My CAT is what u call a "moggie" but I hate that word cos it means he is inferior to Pedigree....in my eyes he is the best!:001_tt2: sorry but I really hate that word!


I call Cotton a purebred moggie  because that's what she is LOL


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

sequeena said:


> I call Cotton a purebred moggie  because that's what she is LOL


Hahha! good one sequeena!  I love my cat and would NOT change him for the best pedi in the world


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

messyhearts said:


> I have a two & a half old dog who isn't spayed. I have spent a long time researching & decided not to do it. Am I bad? No. Has she ever had a litter? No. If she had a litter would it be the end of the world? No.
> 
> Kittens don't face much problem in finding a home. It's cats that do that either lose their owners to death or to financial difficulties.


it wouldnt be the end of the world if your dog had pupppies but it would be irresponsible if it wasnt done properly without the research and health testingdone.do you mind me asking what you found in your researchthat made you decid not to neuter yoour dog?

kittens usually dont have troble finding homes as you say but it is those kittens that grow up to be the adult cats you saylose their homes or are thrown out.people who let their cats have unplanned littters contribute to that.my cat isnt neutered but he is a 100% indoor cat and he cant have ageneral anaesthetic.if it was any other way he wold have had the snip along time ago.

battersea for example is suffering a crisis right now with their cats.they are full to bursting point.

BBC NEWS | England | London | Battersea facing 'cat emergency'


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

i love the word moggie.my gran used to call walt a toggie as he has some tabbie bits but is not a pedigree.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Hahha! good one sequeena!  I love my cat and would NOT change him for the best pedi in the world


Me neither hun though I am getting a bengal in the summer


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Me neither hun though I am getting a bengal in the summer


aww lovely -  got nothing against pedis they are gorge but hate it when my cat gets put down for being common:


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## FREE SPIRIT (Jul 8, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> aww lovely -  got nothing against pedis they are gorge but hate it when my cat gets put down for being common:


I love my moggy 
Besides, a cat's a cat....just some are more expensive than others.


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> I love my moggy
> Besides, a cat's a cat....just some are more expensive than others.


Exactly Ony...xxxx


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> aww lovely -  got nothing against pedis they are gorge but hate it when my cat gets put down for being common:


Like Ony said a cat is a cat. A bengal isn't better in my eyes than a moggy  I'd treat them both the same and they won't be eating any different lol


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Like Ony said a cat is a cat. A bengal isn't better in my eyes than a moggy  I'd treat them both the same and they won't be eating any different lol


Sounds like u are gonna have a full house!xxx


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

suzy93074 said:


> Sounds like u are gonna have a full house!xxx


We're hoping to be in another house by then lol this one is getting a bit too small! Need a proper nursery for the baby (before anyone asks no I'm not pregnant - yet) not just a room with a boiler in it because the landlord is too much of a skinflint to get a combiboiler fitted!


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## suzy93074 (Sep 3, 2008)

sequeena said:


> We're hoping to be in another house by then lol this one is getting a bit too small! Need a proper nursery for the baby (before anyone asks no I'm not pregnant - yet) not just a room with a boiler in it because the landlord is too much of a skinflint to get a combiboiler fitted!


Landlords eh?? good luck babymaking


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> A lot of people don't think it is natural to intervene. I think that is a fair point of view. For example I have spayed my cat & will neuter my kitten for selfish reasons - I do not want to hear a call or clean a spray.


not selfish a female cat can get very poorly if not mated.

a male can get very frustrated and upset.

both cases not fair to the cat.


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

sequeena said:


> We're hoping to be in another house by then lol this one is getting a bit too small! Need a proper nursery for the baby (before anyone asks no I'm not pregnant - yet) not just a room with a boiler in it because the landlord is too much of a skinflint to get a combiboiler fitted!


my mum was left a house by her mother in law.she rents it out and she is not a skinflint but she wont spend money where its not needed.if your boiler is broken your landlord need sto replace it but if its not broken why would hemaybe your landlord is different but their not all loaded.my mum says the rent she chrged for her house is just sucked bacck up into it.

sorry but i sort of feel i need to stand up for some landlords.i know some can be idiots.my friends landlord woudlnt even pay for paint so they cold paint over the mould in thr bedroom.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

WalterKitty said:


> my mum was left a house by her mother in law.she rents it out and she is not a skinflint but she wont spend money where its not needed.if your boiler is broken your landlord need sto replace it but if its not broken why would hemaybe your landlord is different but their not all loaded.my mum says the rent she chrged for her house is just sucked bacck up into it.
> 
> sorry but i sort of feel i need to stand up for some landlords.i know some can be idiots.my friends landlord woudlnt even pay for paint so they cold paint over the mould in thr bedroom.


The boiler is dangerous - it has no cover on it neither does it have a door. The house in general is a mess. The kitchen is about 20 years old, we had to buy a new washing machine as our landlord wouldn't...even though the door on the old washing machine had to be held on by sticky tape! The windows/doors haven't been changed for a long time and they are rickety. My bathroom door is almost completely stuck as the wood has warped. We haven't got a bath even though he has promised us the past 6 months that he is putting in a new kitchen and bathroom, need I go on?

I had a landlord who was wonderful and he worked away in Saudi Arabia! It's a shame not every landlord is the same and only thinks of the money.

BTW I'm paying £500 a month to live in a tip and can't move as of yet because we cannot pay the fees 

Edit: My landlord just built a new house and has bought a porsche, trust me he's loaded


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

sequeena said:


> The boiler is dangerous - it has no cover on it neither does it have a door. The house in general is a mess. The kitchen is about 20 years old, we had to buy a new washing machine as our landlord wouldn't...even though the door on the old washing machine had to be held on by sticky tape! The windows/doors haven't been changed for a long time and they are rickety. My bathroom door is almost completely stuck as the wood has warped. We haven't got a bath even though he has promised us the past 6 months that he is putting in a new kitchen and bathroom, need I go on?
> 
> I had a landlord who was wonderful and he worked away in Saudi Arabia! It's a shame not every landlord is the same and only thinks of the money.
> 
> ...


ok lol if thats the case you have been very kind about him so far lol some of these landlords should live in their own houses for a bit and see how they like it


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

WalterKitty said:


> ok lol if thats the case you have been very kind about him so far lol some of these landlords should live in their own houses for a bit and see how they like it


I've put up with a lot of crap with him! Almost walked out once as his mother came round and told me I had to get rid of my gsd! Don't think so love!!!! I told her that the landlord (her son) had okay'd it and it was 20 minutes before he admitted it!!

I walk Sky past her house every day now


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

ha ha thats a good one, my old landlord locked my cat in the house because they changed a lock while i was out as they had lost their copy of the key.. then told me i was not supposed to have a cat in the 1st place (they had just bought the flat and hadnt given me a new lease etc so they didnt have a leg to stand on and my last landlords had ok's the cat) so i had to report them for animal cruelty


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

ellie8024 said:


> ha ha thats a good one, my old landlord locked my cat in the house because they changed a lock while i was out as they had lost their copy of the key.. then told me i was not supposed to have a cat in the 1st place (they had just bought the flat and hadnt given me a new lease etc so they didnt have a leg to stand on and my last landlords had ok's the cat) so i had to report them for animal cruelty


Good for you  Did anything come of it?


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

not really as they were saying they do not allow pets blah blah blah they also locked my eldest daughters medication in the house. had to get a joiner out to break in my door but got the invoice sent to them and moved asap after that


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

ellie8024 said:


> not really as they were saying they do not allow pets blah blah blah they also locked my eldest daughters medication in the house. had to get a joiner out to break in my door but got the invoice sent to them and moved asap after that


What btards! 

My OH had a landlord who was a thug and got men to 'come round'. He phoned his dad, packed his stuff and moved in the night. He made Candy stay in all day so she did her business everywhere too :laugh:


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> A lot of people don't think it is natural to intervene. I think that is a fair point of view. For example I have spayed my cat & will neuter my kitten for selfish reasons - I do not want to hear a call or clean a spray.


Oh so its better to let cats have litter after litter because thats 'natural' ut:  Mine are indoor cats but there is the risk they could escape plus all the health risks of not spaying female cats.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

crofty said:


> Oh so its better to let cats have litter after litter because thats 'natural' ut:  Mine are indoor cats but there is the risk they could escape plus all the health risks of not spaying female cats.


Have to agree with you there. My cats will be and always will be neutered - especially females. Just because they can breed doesn't mean they should. They will never miss what they never had


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Have to agree with you there. My cats will be and always will be neutered - especially females. Just because they can breed doesn't mean they should. They will never miss what they never had


My issue is with irresponsible breeding, letting cats out to breed with any other cat with no idea of the health or genetic history. Whether its moggy or pedigree they should be of breeding quality and their genetic history for at least three generations should be known in my opinion. I know i have pedigree cats but ive had moggies too i love them all!

Oh and please may i come and cat nap cotton, shes stunning :001_wub:


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

crofty said:


> My issue is with irresponsible breeding, letting cats out to breed with any other cat with no idea of the health or genetic history. Whether its moggy or pedigree they should be of breeding quality and their genetic history for at least three generations should be known in my opinion. I know i have pedigree cats but ive had moggies too i love them all!
> 
> Oh and please may i come and cat nap cotton, shes stunning :001_wub:


Oh I agree - I didn't mean it to come across that no cats should breed lol. If you know what you're doing, want to better the breed etc then carry on I have no problems 

Oh noooo you can't! You'd have to take Sky too lol!!

Question; Does anyone elses cat purr when they're eating? Cotton purrs as soon until you pick her bowl up and until she's finished eating :laugh:


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Oh I agree - I didn't mean it to come across that no cats should breed lol. If you know what you're doing, want to better the breed etc then carry on I have no problems
> 
> Oh noooo you can't! You'd have to take Sky too lol!!
> 
> Question; Does anyone elses cat purr when they're eating? Cotton purrs as soon until you pick her bowl up and until she's finished eating :laugh:


Oh no you didnt lol i was just making sure i didnt come across pedigree bias 

Yeh i'll have sky too then 

Erm crystal purrs most of the time.... so not sure!


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## thompsonk (Jul 4, 2009)

Its seems silly for people to say that they want their moggy to experience having a litter and being a mother because its unfair for them not to experience motherhood. That is the thought process of humans, not cats, they dont know what pregnancy is and first timers giving birth are often scared until they have had the first one and then the natural instincts kick in. Cats cannot talk to each other about pregnancy and motherhood like humans do, humans have emotions that they are able to analyse, cats cannot analyse their emotions. They do not *need* to experience motherhood

xx


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

crofty said:


> Oh no you didnt lol i was just making sure i didnt come across pedigree bias
> 
> Yeh i'll have sky too then
> 
> Erm crystal purrs most of the time.... so not sure!


ok fine take them :001_tt2:

I might just have a strange cat then ut:


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

sequeena said:


> ok fine take them :001_tt2:
> 
> I might just have a strange cat then ut:


haha yes they are mine.... hmm now just got to get to you and swipe them before you change your mind.... :idea:


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## crofty (May 2, 2008)

thompsonk said:


> Its seems silly for people to say that they want their moggy to experience having a litter and being a mother because its unfair for them not to experience motherhood. That is the thought process of humans, not cats, they dont know what pregnancy is and first timers giving birth are often scared until they have had the first one and then the natural instincts kick in. Cats cannot talk to each other about pregnancy and motherhood like humans do, humans have emotions that they are able to analyse, cats cannot analyse their emotions. They do not *need* to experience motherhood
> 
> xx


100% agree


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

crofty said:


> haha yes they are mine.... hmm now just got to get to you and swipe them before you change your mind.... :idea:


PMSL I'll put them outside with a nametag "For Crofty" :laugh:


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

WalterKitty said:


> it wouldnt be the end of the world if your dog had pupppies but it would be irresponsible if it wasnt done properly without the research and health testingdone.do you mind me asking what you found in your researchthat made you decid not to neuter yoour dog?
> 
> kittens usually dont have troble finding homes as you say but it is those kittens that grow up to be the adult cats you saylose their homes or are thrown out.people who let their cats have unplanned littters contribute to that.my cat isnt neutered but he is a 100% indoor cat and he cant have ageneral anaesthetic.if it was any other way he wold have had the snip along time ago.
> 
> ...


If I am not intentionally breeding from my dog then it is not likely that I would be doing tests! As I say, not the end of the world. Implying that it is irresponsible to not spay a dog offends to me, to be honest.

I decided not to spay my dog for many reasons. One major reason was that she had a major operation at 7 months & I did not want her to go through further unnecessary operations as she was being put through a lot as it was. Also, I have a tight control over my dog. Her being close enough to a dog to get pregnant is so very highly unlikely. Another reason is that I feel it is unethical to put an animal through a high risk operation for what I believe are essentially selfish reasons - owners can relax & not worry so much about their pets after the op. or to make one's life easier so they do not have to deal with mess/noise/baby animals. Another was that there were health implications to operating on a young dog or cat along with implications in terms of health that most people gloss over in favour of very quickly pointing out anyone who does not confirm to a spay/neuter to their pet is VERY bad. It's essentially, as well, what keeps a lot of pet vet surgeries afloat so of course they promote it. Vaccinations & neuters are a steady income.



crofty said:


> Oh so its better to let cats have litter after litter because thats 'natural' ut:  Mine are indoor cats but there is the risk they could escape plus all the health risks of not spaying female cats.


I never ever ever even implied the argument that having a litter is natural & therefore right but I did say that it is perfectly honourable for someone to refuse the peer pressure in forcing an animal to go under the knife for a potentially risky operation & state it is not natural.

There are a lot of reasons for & against - neither is right. I have a dog who isn't & two cats that will be (one cat is). I have thought long & hard about each & judged each on an individual basis. I am not evil or irresponsible whatsoever. If I was, would my cats be fed on the best quality food I can find? Would my dog have been taken to the vet & have her surgery paid for? I could go on...


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## kitties (Aug 1, 2009)

lizward said:


> I have said both of these things before, but here they are again.
> 
> 1. It seems very inconsistent to me that there are people here who shout their disgust every time anyone mentions having an unneutered moggy, and yet go positively "gooey" when the kitten pictures go up. Moggy kittens come from unneutered moggies!
> 
> ...


Well I was going to keep my mouth shut, but Liz ths was worded perfectly and just what I was thnking. So its ok for the pedigree breeders but not ok for us with moggies?

When Smudge my gorgeous cat of 10 years died, and our kids were devastated and we promised to replace him, we went to the cat shelter, we planned on finding a 1 yr cat plus, knowing that they get overlooked, but there were none that were suitable for young children. We were told there was a long long waiting list (6 month to a year) for a kitten.

Luckily, we met a man who was bringing in a mother with her 2 babies, and we ended up taking them in, all three of them.

We kept the mother and her little boy, (got them both done straight away) and the female kitten went to my next door neighbour, who had her kitten spayed as well.

This adult cat we took in, as much as I love her dearly, she is not like a pet like Smudge was whom we had from a kitten. She treats our house like a hotel, comes in eats, sleeps, goes out. She is not the pet that we had before. Felix the kitten however, became such a lovable pet who replaced Smudge brilliantly, however we lost him, and again were devastated, so we promised the girls we would get them a kitten, which we did from a pet shop. It is this cat that is now expecting her first (and last) litter of kittens. I have responsible homes for 4 (dont really expect to have any more) but also a stand by list if she has more. All the homes are responsible homes, 2 are paramedics who will pay for their injections and have them spayed.

I am not going to excuse myself to you and say oh it was an accident, oh how silly am I? Frankly its got nothing to do with any of you. I am a responsible cat owner, I too found this forum, because I was looking for a place to learn the best thing for my cats, and have made some lovely friends on here. It just sickens me that you can judge people who you dont even know.

The people who are getting my kittens would not have homed an adult cat, they wanted a kitten, not a pedigree kitten, a moggy kitten!


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree Kitties. I know lots of people who want a moggie! They are not interested in pedigrees at all! They also want a kitten not an older cat so therefore don't rescue out of shelters.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I agree Kitties. I know lots of people who want a moggie! They are not interested in pedigrees at all! They also want a kitten not an older cat so therefore don't rescue out of shelters.


There are plenty of kittens in rescues too 

If you're going to breed don't go into it without a lot of research etc. other than that I really don't have a problem with it


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

sequeena said:


> There are plenty of kittens in rescues too
> 
> If you're going to breed don't go into it without a lot of research etc. other than that I really don't have a problem with it


There wasn't over here  i'm not in the UK remember!!

When i bred my girls i did it exactly the same as any top class pedigree breeder ever has.


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## sequeena (Apr 30, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> There wasn't over here  i'm not in the UK remember!!
> 
> When i bred my girls i did it exactly the same as any top class pedigree breeder ever has.


Well that's a different story altogether! :001_tt2:


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

sequeena said:


> Well that's a different story altogether! :001_tt2:


It is indeed! Although recently our 2 shelters have had kittens in  most feral but the odd one or two not   so sad.

We have 2 rescues and both have around 30 cats in each, this is really sad for a place like here. A lot of these cats are ferals. And some people are blaming the recession.


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## kitties (Aug 1, 2009)

sequeena said:


> There are plenty of kittens in rescues too
> 
> If you're going to breed don't go into it without a lot of research etc. other than that I really don't have a problem with it


The cat shelter where I was had a 6 month to 12 month waiting list for a kitten. Im not a breeder, and dont profess to be and she will be spayed after this litter, but I do find it a little annoying that its ok for pedigree breeders to breed and not spay their cats but if a moggie gets out and gets pregnant were irresponsible.


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## thompsonk (Jul 4, 2009)

Good pedigree breeders have a governing body from what I underrstand and are breeding to better that particular breed

xx


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

thompsonk said:


> Good pedigree breeders have a governing body from what I underrstand and are breeding to better that particular breed
> 
> xx


Yes they do, but i don't see why some people are frowned upon for having litters from Moggies. My 2 girls had kittens and i did it absolutely right when i planned them. I know the rescue crisis is fairly bad in the UK but it is isn't like that here (although there are around 30 cats in both of our shelters  ). Moggies kittens are wanted so much more here. I know so many people who would choose a moggie over a pedigree.


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## thompsonk (Jul 4, 2009)

I understand its different where you are Acacia86 and if there is a demand where you are and you have researched and have the time/money to breed your moggy responsibly then fair enough. Its the accidents that happen time and time again to the same poor queens that's upsetting and causes these debates. In the UK not every owner of a pregnant moggy can guarentee that they can home 7 kittens if needed, just like evey breeder can't guarentee unless secured by a deposit. 

The RSPCA would only take the kittens from Tilda's litter to be vaccinated if they took the kittens to rehome themselves which struck me as silly because I have homes lined up for all 6 of them.

There has been talk of people leaving the forum and others posting not to listen to narrow mindedness, I have a very open mind and was under the impression that posts are not personal attacks against people but simply a way to have a discussion/debate and give opinions. Personally now I feel quite upset that people are made to feel that they are not able to have discussions/give opinions

xx


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

Acacia86 said:


> I know so many people who would choose a moggie over a pedigree.


i can be added to that list.id choose a moggie over a pedigree any day.i have nothing against pedigrees but i just prefer moggies.i do like the fluffy pedigree cats with the blue eyes and dark noses.ican tthink of their names right now.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

thompsonk said:


> Good pedigree breeders have a governing body from what I underrstand and are breeding to better that particular breed


Some do. There's more than one governing body, though, and plenty of room for dishonest breeders to flourish despite all the best rules and regs.

On the other hand, at least one of the cat registering bodies takes it a lot more seriously than the Kennel Club (which defends itself by saying it is merely a registration body).

If you own just one GCCF registered cat and have it transferred into your name, you are then bound to abide by its rules... not just for that cat, but all your others. Some think that is way too strict. Others are happy to comply. It's always been an issue. You only have to look back at the posts here last week about a Maine Coon kitten sold in dubious circumstances to understand how people can still be on the fiddle.

My current litter of moggies will be brought up as well if not better than, the pure bred litters I had when I was a GCCF breeder. I still have my GCCF prefix but no longer have the perfect circumstances to breed pedigrees, and was caught out - cats really can outwit anyone, even experienced breeders, if they have a mind to (and they certainly do). No use comparing them to a dog, which would have 2 seasons a year.... a determined cat can have a season every 2 weeks and keep very quiet about it, squeeze out of a window left ajar, plot and plan, observe our routines and make an enormous dash at the right moment.

*I am putting all my previous experience and knowledge into my litter because they are still cats... and the lack of a pedigree doesn't make them any less of a cat.*

I will continue to post on here and help other people rather than criticize them. It's no use saying 'I Told You So'... and get all narky... People come on here wanting, needing help. If those of us who do have that experience don't share it, how will anyone grow? and how will the little new lives be brought up for the best?

How would you feel about this: 
What if someone came on here with an accidental mog litter but had a great experience with a lot of help and support, and because of that, decided to go into breeding pedigrees (respoinsibly because of what they had learned here).

Or maybe they decided to offer their help to a local rescue and take in/foster pregnant cats.

Or just buggered off because we weren't helpful, and went on to make more mistakes... ?


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

thompsonk said:


> I understand its different where you are Acacia86 and if there is a demand where you are and you have researched and have the time/money to breed your moggy responsibly then fair enough. Its the accidents that happen time and time again to the same poor queens that's upsetting and causes these debates. In the UK not every owner of a pregnant moggy can guarentee that they can home 7 kittens if needed, just like evey breeder can't guarentee unless secured by a deposit.
> 
> The RSPCA would only take the kittens from Tilda's litter to be vaccinated if they took the kittens to rehome themselves which struck me as silly because I have homes lined up for all 6 of them.
> 
> ...


I completely agree.

All my cats are 'done' now. I wanted them to have a litter because i wanted to keep kittens. They did have a 'not so planned' litter. I wasn't happy, it wasn't my fault, if it was i would not be scared to admit it!

But moggies are the main cats here! So i have different views on them having litters, *but* as i have said before i despise people who let their cats out to breed and then do it time after time.
If people want to breed their moggies then do it as well as any top pedigree breeder!

P.S i also agree that it is sad that people feel they can't post what they believe in. I always have and i always will! I do not take anything anyone says as 'an attack' unless it is nasty and uncalled for! But it is so rare here! Some people take forum life a little too seriously! It is the internet, and people can not express themselves properly......you can only type words! Not show feelings and body language! I adore it here but if someone isn't as nice as i would like then so be it!
I like the fact people have different opinions. It also helps others to learn to do the best by their beloved pets.
xx


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## thompsonk (Jul 4, 2009)

I completely agree that the I told you so approach is wrong and I have gained and given experience on this forum which has been invaluable

Tilda's kittens are not leaving until they are fully vaccinated which means they will be with me until they are 13wks, just because they are not pedigrees doesn't mean I'm going to treat them differently and throw them out at 8wks because I feel that is too soon. I'm getting them vaccinated for my own piece of mind and at my own cost as the RSPCA wanted to take them if they were to vaccinate, even though they told me Tilda was spayed when I got her!

A cat is a cat, moggy or pedigree they should all be loved and looked after the same as Tilda is, she's my baby and I spoil her rotten, I got her because ishe has brain damage and I couldn't resist her, I would like a maine coon but not because they are pedigree, because I find them utterly adorable to look at, as I do bengals, siamese and all other breeds because they are cats.

I believe that no post is narky and new members seeking help are not attacked, they are given advice and maybe an opinion, some people are a little less tactful than others but I honestly believe there are no personal attacks. Debates are excellent to open peoples minds and maybe even get them to a new way of thinking and broaden everyones knowledge, each member has something to give and no matter how small, its invaluable to others and should be encouraged along with healthy debate

Xx


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

thompsonk said:


> I completely agree that the I told you so approach is wrong and I have gained and given experience on this forum which has been invaluable
> 
> Tilda's kittens are not leaving until they are fully vaccinated which means they will be with me until they are 13wks, just because they are not pedigrees doesn't mean I'm going to treat them differently and throw them out at 8wks because I feel that is too soon. I'm getting them vaccinated for my own piece of mind and at my own cost as the RSPCA wanted to take them if they were to vaccinate, even though they told me Tilda was spayed when I got her!
> 
> ...


100% agree on that xx


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## Cat_Crazy (Jul 15, 2009)

This is always going to be a sore subject as people have such strong opinions on the matter.

I volunteer for a cat rescue and we certainly have a HUGE number of kittens needing homes at the moment as we always do this time of year.

This is mainly due to that fact that the area I live in is quite rural and lots and lots of farm cats have accidental litters over and over again.

Just last week 5 kittens were found in a skip!
Sadly only 2 of them survived 

I understand that accidents happen, I have been there myself although my female lost her litter, but I think what's important is how you deal with what has happened.

What drives me mad is when people allow their cats to get pregnant over and over to make money from them.

If someone has an accidental litter but cares for the kittens, gets them all the treatment they need and then re-home's them to responsible adopters then I have no problem with them.

We all need to think about the current cat over population and if a litter can be prevented then I see no reason why it should not be but of course that's just my opinion.

This is one debate that could go round in circles for forever.


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

I don't think there have been any personal attacks in this thread - the debate has been excellent.

I wish the waters had not been muddied by bringing dogs into it. Dogs can be controlled much more easily.

However, if a moggie owner wants to breed responsibly how do you find a stud?


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

With extreme difficulty, Janee! 

My suggestion would be to advertise on preloved (unfortunately pets4homes does not have a "wanted" section) and see what replies you get - you're not likely to get many, to be honest! From time to time people ask on here, but since they never seem to say what area they live in I suspect most of the time they are just trolling.

The thing is, despite what you read often on this forum, there aren't really any health risks from letting your female breeds with the local romeo - other than the health risks that are already associated with pregnancy and birth, no matter who the stud is, and the health risks associated with letting cats out at all. The only time it might perhaps make a difference would be if you happened to live in a quiet cul de sac but near to a main road, because a calling female might go a bit further when she is calling, especially on that annoying day when she rolls around but won't actually let any male mate her so she just keeps moving away. Other than that, there is only one thing that is at all likely to be caught by sexual transmission in cats and that is FeLV. And there is a very effective vaccine against that. If you have a cat that goes out, make sure it is vaccinated against FeLV. 

FIV, the one everyone worries about, is much more prevalent in the free roaming entire male population than it is in the cat population as a whole, but there is not even one recorded instance of it being spread by sexual transmission, so unless the male concerned actually bites the female hard enough to draw blood (which is very unlikely, at least I've never known it happen in 17 years of breeding) it just isn't an issue - despite the fact that most stud owners insist on a negative test for it. Cats have been breeding naturally for thousands of years and the cat population is still strong!

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

I personally do not have any issue with anyone having kittens from a moggie or a pedigree as long as they have the same prinicples. Most breeeders get into breeding, 1. because they love cats and 2. because they love a particular breed. I can not see that moggies are any different. A genuine pedigree breeder has the added interest of breeding to the standard of points and if you show breeding that ultimate show stopper.

SOPs aside the main aim for anyone having kittens should be to have healthy kittens with fabulous temperaments, that have been bought up given the best in food and attention, with Mum and babies having appropriate veterinary attention when required, the kittens should be fully vaccinated and loving forever homes found for them. Any breeder should stand by that kitten for that kittens lifetime and ensure that if the new owner can not keep that kitten/cat for whatever reason that the kitten/cat is either returned to them or the breeder takes an active part in finding them a new home.

It is anyones right to have a litter of kittens from their cat as long as they all follow the same rules. Like the OP I have an issue with people who come on and try and claim mistake after mistake with a series of inadequate excuses. Genuine accidents do happen by if it was an accident the first time the second time is not.

I think its very easy to say everyone that breeds moggy kittens and charges from them is just out to make money and everyone that breeds pedigree kittens is just doing it to better the breed. The latter is what the unscrupulous pedigree breeders hide behind. I have no issue with someone charging to recoup their costs in raising a kitten. After all a buyer does appreciate something they have had to pay for and think about rather than something they got for free.

What I do have an issue with is 

people selling for profit be they moggy or pedigree breeders.
Moggy breeders who claim their moggy kittens are pedigree because they vaguely resemble a pedigree in their mind or pedigree crosses or "rare" colour or pattern all used as sales techniques as an excuse for making a profit
Pedigree breeders who got into breeding not because they love a breed and have always owned them but did a bit of research and decided on a breed that they think they can make the most profit on. Then they hang out on chat boards hiding behind those breeders who are breeding for genuine reasons and leeching off their passion for a breed so they can replicate that in their sales process
Any breeders who treat entire cats like walking uteruses or sperm donors, use them then ship them out as soon as they are finished with them. Even more of a crime selling those poor cats on entire for a premium for someone else to treat them in the same manner :cursing:

I think it would be very sad if there were no more moggies in the world. Mother Nature on her own produces better patterns and colours than some ped breeders can studying pedigrees etc. I am willing to bet that in most breeds there is a moggie outcross somewhere used to bring in hybrid vigour or a particular trait. I would view a moggy breeder responsibly having a litter of kittens for genuine reasons as better than a profit orientated pedigree breeder any day.


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## Riverwish (May 2, 2009)

BethanMay said:


> Liz you make a fantastic argument but i wanted to add a point - people have moggies and moggy kittens because they can't afford pedigree cats.


Sorry but I don't agree with that. I could save up and buy a pedigree cat if I wanted to but I don't because a cat is at the end of a day a cat no matter where it has come from or who it's parents are. Yes pedigree cats might be pretty and you could argue that they will have less health problems but at the end of the day what makes them so special?

I love my moggies, they have (had in Oscars case) fantastic personalities and I wouldn't change them for the world. I wouldn't love them any more just because they were pedigree.

And no I don't agree with people knowingly letting their cats out un-spayed or un-neutered and not caring about the consequence. But accidents do happen and everyone needs to accept that, and if people do want to breed their moggies, I don't see a problem with that if they're doing it properly and can home the kittens to good homes.

Some of the things people have said in the post are unbelieveable. I don't think there have been any personal insults but I think it's enough to stop people from wanting to post. If I had just had this happen to me and come here to find some help and advice I think I would just leave straight away again.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Any breeders who treat entire cats like walking uteruses or sperm donors, use them then ship them out as soon as they are finished with them. Even more of a crime selling those poor cats on entire for a premium for someone else to treat them in the same manner :cursing:


Well, at the end of the day the pedigree breeder has only three choices: 1. never keep a kitten once you have reached whatever your maximum cat population is (mine at the moment is 12 though my husband thinks its 6!) or 2. Keep kittens regardless of your cat population and end up with complaints from the environmental health at best, and very major vet bills at worst (30 cats with an infecrtion doesn't bear thinking about!) or 3. Rehome young adult cats from time to time - to do this is not easy at all and basically you need to tell yourself from when you very first decide to keep the kitten that this is what you will be doing, and keep reminding yourself that cat is only here on a temporary basis. Young cats adapt very easily to new homes. As for passing them on entire, well, if your breeding programme has no more use for those genes, and someone else wants to work with those genes, and you trust that other person, whyever not? Certainly you don't want cats ending up being passed around four or five times (as happened to two I bought in last year) but a friendly stud boy, for example, will adapt to a new pen and a new person very quickly indeed.

Liz


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## Saikou (Apr 2, 2008)

Liz you know very well I am not referring to breeders who rehome young adults from time to time, because having kept in the past their numbers are such they either have to give up breeding or rehome. Personally I would rather give up breeding as its all about the cats I own and not having kittens that is important but thats my own personal opinion.

The breeders I am referring to rehome right from the start. They own maybe one or two ususally moggy neuters they started off with, but view their breeding animals as transient commodities and SELL on entires to likeminded individuals. If someone thinks that is acceptable thats their opinion and they are entitled to it, my own opinion is its not acceptable and nothing anyone can say will change that.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

MerlinsMum said:


> How would you feel about this:
> What if someone came on here with an accidental mog litter but had a great experience with a lot of help and support, and because of that, decided to go into breeding pedigrees (respoinsibly because of what they had learned here).


I almost walked but I didn't I did as above 

<just off to read rest of thread, I may comment but I doubt it!>


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

This thread was never about Moggies V Pedigrees  

There are so many people breeding pedigrees for the wrong reasons. And no, people who breed moggies by letting their girl roam to mate with any tom IS irrisponsible. 

Because you MAY well be letting your girl catch a disease or get run over looking for a mate.

I you want to breed moggies then do it, but do it right!


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## tylow (Feb 11, 2009)

Ive been reading this thread with interest and there are lots of valid points. Its a hot topic and one that evokes all manor of emotions. Surely the way forward is to educate our cats, who in fact are the breeders! As their willing slaves we are in the position to facilitate or discourage sexual liaisons and as such should do so in a responsible manor. Safe sex, promotion of health and wellbeing and a secure future for their kids  whether they be black, white, tortie or colourpoint


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

......................


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Biawhiska said:


> I you want to breed moggies then do it, but do it right!


Genuine question, Biawhiska - how does someone go about breeding moggies "right"?

Liz


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

Saikou said:


> Liz you know very well I am not referring to breeders who rehome young adults from time to time, because having kept in the past their numbers are such they either have to give up breeding or rehome. Personally I would rather give up breeding as its all about the cats I own and not having kittens that is important but thats my own personal opinion.
> 
> The breeders I am referring to rehome right from the start. They own maybe one or two ususally moggy neuters they started off with, but view their breeding animals as transient commodities and SELL on entires to likeminded individuals. If someone thinks that is acceptable thats their opinion and they are entitled to it, my own opinion is its not acceptable and nothing anyone can say will change that.


I'm not sure I see the difference - what difference do you see?

Liz


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Ummm I think I would buy a moggie, have all it's vaccinations etc.

Buy another moggie, have all it's innoculation etc

Wait until they are old enough and .....................

I came in way too late on this thread so this all may be way over ones head  but I am assuming that's how it would work.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Sorry this thread has gone over my head.

Off to get some children haircuts for starting school.

Enjoy!


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## WalterKitty (Aug 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted by BethanMay
> 
> Liz you make a fantastic argument but i wanted to add a point - people have moggies and moggy kittens because they can't afford pedigree cats


im sorry but thats not true.i could afford a pedigree but when it comes time to get another cat i will not be getting a pedigree.there are far more moggies needing a new home than pedigrees.just because you pay a lot of money for something does not make it better.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

mellowma said:


> Ummm I think I would buy a moggie, have all it's vaccinations etc.
> 
> Buy another moggie, have all it's innoculation etc
> 
> ...


That would certainly work - when it would become a problem though, would be if the moggy breeder then decided to keep a female kitten and breed from her as well. I suppose you could run the operation exactly in the way a pedigree breeder would - get an outdoor stud run to keep the boy in, and buy in several unrelated females.

Liz


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> This thread was never about Moggies V Pedigrees
> 
> There are so many people breeding pedigrees for the wrong reasons. And no, people who breed moggies by letting their girl roam to mate with any tom IS irrisponsible.
> 
> ...


In which case it becomes indoor vs outdoor. One cannot expect to breed "right" if they let their cats - moggie or otherwise - outside unsupervised & many people strongly feel keeping cats indoors is cruel.


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## lizward (Feb 29, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> One cannot expect to breed "right" if they let their cats - moggie or otherwise - outside unsupervised & many people strongly feel keeping cats indoors is cruel.


Well, you can, but it's not easy, you have to be aware of when you expect the girls to call and make sure you have them confined before they do.

Liz


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## tylow (Feb 11, 2009)

In my opinion a big part of the reason there are far more moggies needing homes is down to irresponsible ownership. A lot of the pedigree websites state available to forever loving home and this is something i feel very strongly about. I understand peoples circumstances change however in many cases older rescue cats have been abandoned for whatever reason and rehoming is left as a challenge for rescue centres. Understanding the level of commitment required when acquiring a kitten is an issue often overlooked bearing in mind life expectancy of a cat. As pointed out in an earlier post perhaps more thought and a more responsible attitude prevails when buying pedigrees due to the cost implications or is it due to the inclusion of a neutering clause in kitten contracts. I am in no way saying by breeding moggies people are being irresponsible just pointing out there are more moggies in rescue centres than pedigrees. 

The vet beside my work base has the contract for the local cat protection branch and on certain days the van arrives deposits lots of cats/kittens and returns later that day to collect. I must admit i find this very disturbing especially as they don't appear to be ferals just poor wee cats that are no longer wanted by the individuals who took them on as cute wee kitties. I'm not directing this statement at anyone on here as i presume by being on here people have an interest in whats best for their cats because at the end of the day thats what its all about


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## Janee (May 4, 2008)

From reading forums and from anecotal evidence I think that there are people who own pets, but as soon as there is a problem, either of the pet's making or a circumstantial problem such as moving house, the pet is dumped.

There was one poster I remember whose neighbour's cat had an illness but the neighbour could not 'afford' to take the cat to the vet......


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

lizward said:


> Genuine question, Biawhiska - how does someone go about breeding moggies "right"?
> 
> Liz


Well I don't think Moggies should be bred from really, but if one would insist then they should get a Moggie Stud and do controlled matings, instead of letting a girl out to roam.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

why shouldnt they be breed from? id pick a mixed cat over a purebred


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

i know what people are saying about irresponsible breeders but as for moggies should not be bred from.. where do you think ragdolls came from? did they not originate from 2 moggys? I dont know the history of other cats but i do know that there are very few natural breeds of cats remaining


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> why shouldnt they be breed from? id pick a mixed cat over a purebred


i have mixed and pure.
i'm NOT saying they shouldn't be, it's the way in which people do it.

head & brick wall comes to mind!


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

Biawhiska said:


> Well I don't think Moggies should be bred from really, but if one would insist then they should get a Moggie Stud and do controlled matings, instead of letting a girl out to roam.


as you can see you did say you didnt think moggies should be bred from


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

I DONT THINK THEY SHOULD my opinion, but as I say I know people will and not saying THEY CAN'T just don't like some people's methods. IS that such a crime to have an opinion?


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## Biawhiska (Mar 28, 2008)

ellie8024 said:


> i know what people are saying about irresponsible breeders but as for moggies should not be bred from.. where do you think ragdolls came from? did they not originate from 2 moggys? I dont know the history of other cats but i do know that there are very few natural breeds of cats remaining


surely they used responisble ways of breeding not letting you cat roam in the garden to get mated by a tom full of diesease? or, to get run over looking for a mate?

and were they bred over and over with no break as accidents kept happening?


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## ellie8024 (May 4, 2009)

its not a crime to have an oppinion at all but one minute you post that you dont think it should happen then 2 posts later you are saying that you didnt say they shouldnt and now you are saying they shouldnt again.

A for the ragdoll thing.. this is info i got directly from wikipedia

In the 1960s, Ann Baker owned a regular non-pedigreed white domestic longhaired cat named Josephine, who had produced several litters of typical cats. Popular legend states that Josephine was hit by a car at some point, which caused her to feel no pain and go limp, but this is completely untrue, and the tendency is merely a genetic mutation. Josephine was of a Persian/Angora type, sired by several unknown male cats, one of which had the Siamese point coloration (Note: No one truly knows the genetics behind the Ragdoll breed, only that somewhere down the line, breeders started to bring in Maine Coon, Persian and Birman lines to create alternate colors and also to refine features, and accidentally caused some health problems that breeders are starting to eradicate due to selective breeding based on the Maine Coon gene).


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

I do think this thread has run its course now, so i'm gonna close it. 
Thx to you all for putting your opinions forward.
Regards
3reddogs
Moderator.


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