# Well this one’s a bit embarrassing (male kitten)



## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

Joey is the first male kitten I’ve had. Before him, it’s just about a year of experience helping my dad with his two rescue boys, who were neutered and two years old when they came home. One of them does mount the other sometimes in play, or to tell him off.

My other cats in life have all been girls.

So Joey is now about 13/14 weeks, so somewhere between 3 and 4 months old. I’ve not weighed him for a few days but he is closing in on 2kg now.

I found his play with his Kickeroo toy really cute. Until today!

I THINK I was just the lucky witness of his first attempt at humping! He mounted it, kneaded it with his front paws and err... vibrated a lot. Sure enough once he had had enough he started grooming and little Joey (who I’ve seen a couple of times) made an appearance.

So my little boy is growing up, right?

Is there anything I should be looking out for or doing to make sure he’s comfortable and happy?

I’m a tad concerned because when he tries to grab my arm - he usually does this with no claws, initial nibble then licks - I usually give him the Kickeroo. I don’t want to get him excited/frustrated?

We play a lot with other toys anyway, so I’m pretty sure he’s not getting bored.

I want to get him neutered ASAP but realistically it’s probably at least a month off assuming we have finished his vaccination course by then - and assuming that needs to be done first 

Edited to add: or should we be aiming to get him neutered first if it’s a choice between the two? (He’s indoors, won’t be going out until we get the garden catproofed/until he’s much older)


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Aww, they are very cute when they start showing sexualised behaviour when still so small, LOL,  . 

I'm sure he's not getting bored as you play with him a lot, and if he's happy to accept the Kickeroo to be amorous with, instead of your arm, then that's good. 

I have always opted to get the vaccinations completed prior to neutering. I find it reassuring to know the kittens are as well protected as possible against any feline viruses they may come into contact with during their day as an inpatient at the vet's when they have their op.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

Thanks @chillminx !

This echos my thoughts re vaccinations and neutering. I've not ruled out that he got cat flu from his stay in hospital!

With the Kickeroo - which way round is his behaviour happening? Is the kickeroo triggering his wanting to hump something, or would he want to do it anyway and it's fortunate he's latched onto something relatively appropriate?

ie should I keep it around at all times or minimise it's availability?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I’d neuter him now, in between vaccines is commonly when breeders neuter, with no issues.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

spotty cats said:


> I'd neuter him now, in between vaccines is commonly when breeders neuter, with no issues.


In context, Joey has unfortunately had a lot of issues. He was very ill, hospitalised for two days and on a month of antibiotics which he finished last week. He also got a touch of cat flu which was either underlying or he did in fact get it in hospital (he had no eye symptoms until maybe five days after he got home). So we were aiming to do vaccination 1 on Monday.

I'm leaning toward vaccinations being the priority and us all putting up with him being a bit... excitable for a little while yet!


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

He needs to be neutered. Vaccines can wait, and aren't a priority for an indoor cat. Neutering is, especially for a kitten that is displaying sexual behaviours and is inevitably feeling frustration. 

I find it disturbing that a kitten displaying sexual behaviours is seen as 'cute'.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> He needs to be neutered. Vaccines can wait, and aren't a priority for an indoor cat. Neutering is, especially for a kitten that is displaying sexual behaviours and is inevitably feeling frustration.
> 
> I find it disturbing that a kitten displaying sexual behaviours is seen as 'cute'.


Thanks for the advice.

I'm a bit nervous about waiting with the vaccines, as Joey has already had one round with cat flu.

I think I will ask the vet about doing the first vaccine, neuter, then the booster. Maybe that's the best compromise. I need to check his weight again but 6 days ago he was 1.85kg so not quite 2kg. Probably is by now though.

But I suspect they will feel happiest if we get the vaccination course done and dusted before we neuter. He's only just started displaying this behaviour, and I think given the choice I'd prefer a little frustration rather than risk of further illness. I want him to be 100% when he has his GA (it was only 7 weeks ago we thought we would lose him).


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

Rufus15 said:


> He needs to be neutered. Vaccines can wait, and aren't a priority for an indoor cat. Neutering is, especially for a kitten that is displaying sexual behaviours and is inevitably feeling frustration.
> 
> I find it disturbing that a kitten displaying sexual behaviours is seen as 'cute'.


If 'cute' is an objectionable term in your book, then "disturbing" is just as bad in my book.

It is not so long ago that vets refused to neuter or spay kittens until they were 6 mths old and so it was quite usual to see kittens over the age of 5 mths or so acting out sexualised behaviours such as males humping toys, and females being in call, trying to mate. It still is common enough these days too, as plenty of kittens are not neutered whether by design or intent, before they become sexually active,

Naturally it goes without saying one did not want to see kittens of either gender feeling sexually frustrated, but if there was nothing to be done about it other than wait until the vet would neuter them, that was that. We had to wait it out and cope as best we could, but I often felt sad at seeing my kittens be so frustrated.

Again of course it goes without saying that one would try and distract the sexually aroused kitten by playing with them or giving treats but some would not be distracted and in fact became more frustrated from not being allowed to express how they felt.

Some people find it alarming and strange when they see their kitten display sexualised behaviour. Some people even find it repellent (though this does NOT apply to Joey's mum, the OP). My comment was intended to reassure that such behaviour is not abnormal or unusual. There are sometimes health reasons why a kitten has not been neutered at the usual age and as Joey has had health problems I imagine this may apply in his case.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

chillminx said:


> If 'cute' is an objectionable term in your book, then "disturbing" is just as bad in my book.
> 
> It is not so long ago that vets refused to neuter or spay kittens until they were 6 mths old and so it was quite usual to see kittens over the age of 5 mths or so acting out sexualised behaviours such as males humping toys, and females being in call, trying to mate.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm aware of, and it's going to be so difficult to know how best to manage things - whether I'll be making him feel better or worse, whether I should just let him get on with it with his Kickeroo toy, or be trying to distract him away from the behaviour. I'm hoping it doesn't happen with too much frequency. We can only do so much within the medical recommendations as you describe.

For what it's worth I didn't take anything negative from your description of it as cute! He was certainly enjoying himself...


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

chillminx said:


> If 'cute' is an objectionable term in your book, then "disturbing" is just as bad in my book.
> 
> It is not so long ago that vets refused to neuter or spay kittens until they were 6 mths old and so it was quite usual to see kittens over the age of 5 mths or so acting out sexualised behaviours such as males humping toys, and females being in call, trying to mate.
> 
> ...


I'm still not sure why or how you would determine that feline sexual behaviour is cute. That is odd in the extreme, and disturbing. Sexual behaviour and frustration is very far from being cute. Reassurance is one thing, absolutely, but I find the use of the word cute distasteful at best.

Not quite sure why you have bought up previous thinking on neutering, as it doesn't apply now. We know better, therefore past thinking cannot be given as an excuse.

I am well aware of health reasons putting a delay on neutering, and it was never under question that Joey's health problems have delayed his neutering. Two breeders have advised that neutering is more important now at this age, particularly with displays of mating behaviour, than vaccinations.

Mating behaviour such as humping is something that can come much later in sexual maturity, I would not like to assume that he is only at the start of coming into his hormones as he may well be in full swing. Leaving him entire and frustrated while vaccines are being done is, in my view, unfair on Joey. Neutering in this case, and indeed in most cases, has to take priority over vaccines.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm still not sure why or how you would determine that feline sexual behaviour is cute. That is odd in the extreme, and disturbing. Sexual behaviour and frustration is very far from being cute. Reassurance is one thing, absolutely, but I find the use of the word cute distasteful at best.
> 
> Not quite sure why you have bought up previous thinking on neutering, as it doesn't apply now. We know better, therefore past thinking cannot be given as an excuse.
> 
> ...


I can understand that. But he nearly died. As you say it is possibly unfair, and none of us know quite what his hormones are up to, and he will be getting a bit frustrated, but I would rather that than risk losing him again.

He is only 13/14 weeks now by my best judgement, so he's not even four months. I hope to have him neutered by the time he is 5 months.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

SuboJvR said:


> I can understand that. But he nearly died. As you say it is possibly unfair, and none of us know quite what his hormones are up to, and he will be getting a bit frustrated, but I would rather that than risk losing him again.


Vaccinating with an already compromised immune system would not be my chosen course of action.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> Vaccinating with an already compromised immune system would not be my chosen course of action.


I do appreciate the input, honestly, but you don't have enough information to determine whether he is immunocompromised.

Yes, he got catflu as a kitten, but his symptoms were mild and he fought it off without a problem.

A combination of being taken from his mother too soon and having cryptosporidiosis at age 5/6 weeks is what hospitalised him.


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## Gallifreyangirl (Feb 11, 2015)

@SuboJvR I think @chillminx is correct on getting him vaccinated then spayed when the time is right for you. I think you have done a fantastic job with Joey @SuboJvR and should be really proud of yourself. it seems you have his best interests at heart which is all that matters. Least he's now using the Kickeroo and not your arm.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

SuboJvR said:


> I do appreciate the input, honestly, but you don't have enough information to determine whether he is immunocompromised.
> 
> Yes, he got catflu as a kitten, but his symptoms were mild and he fought it off without a problem.
> 
> A combination of being taken from his mother too soon and having cryptosporidiosis at age 5/6 weeks is what hospitalised him.


I'm with you, I thought it was the cat flu that had hospitalised him so that was my mistake.


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## SuboJvR (Mar 28, 2018)

Rufus15 said:


> I'm with you, I thought it was the cat flu that had hospitalised him so that was my mistake.


Thank you, apologies that I wasn't clearer. All said and done it's my belief that he does actually have a good immune system, with all he has beaten so far 

I will discuss it all in detail with our vet on Monday though, to get their opinion on it.


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## moggie14 (Sep 11, 2013)

I wouldn't use the word 'disturbing' in relation to any kitten or kitten behaviour, I also highly doubt Joey is particularly 'sexually frustrated' - he won't even know or understand what that means! 
I sometimes see my boys... erm... willies when they are having a good wash, doesn't mean they are horny 
As Joey is only 3 months old I don't think you need to whisk him off for pompom removal straight away. @SuboJvR you know him best and also understand his health better than anyone on here and have enough information to do what you think is right for him.


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## chillminx (Nov 22, 2010)

@SuboJvR - I agree with moggie14 and Gallifreygirl, you should see what your vet advises, and do whatever you feel is in Joey's best interests. You know Joey better than anyone does, and it is wonderful how you have turned around his health issues. If the little guy is only about 13/14 weeks then he is younger than many vets would agree to neuter anyway.

I know of breeders (and even a few Rescues) who are now in favour of neutering kittens at 12 weeks, but my vet is not in favour of it and nor are the members of the Cat Group, who do not recommend neutering owned kittens younger than 4 months old.

My fellow committee members of the Rescue I help run (very knowledgeable, experienced experts) will not consider neutering our foster kittens younger than 5 months old. As a result it is not unusual to have kittens in our care who display sexual behaviour - the males often start earlier than the females. I find it more distressing tbh when the young females start to come into call and cannot get any relief, poor things. The male kittens seem to cope better by improvising with toys etc. But of course if a male kitten becomes distressed by his frustration then that is upsetting to witness too. I hope Joey is not becoming distressed? x

Kittens displaying grown-up behaviour when they are still young and small do tug at my heartstrings. I have many complex feelings, including sadness about the loss of the little one's innocence and other feelings too..... You and I have talked about Joey quite a few times on this forum, and I do feel we understand each other.  I believed you would understand what I meant on this occasion too. And I believe that you did.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

SuboJvR said:


> I THINK I was just the lucky witness of his first attempt at humping! He mounted it, kneaded it with his front paws and err... vibrated a lot. Sure enough once he had had enough he started grooming and little Joey (who I've seen a couple of times) made an appearance.


One of my neutered male cats did something similar to this, all his life. He would knead on me, and his hind quarters would get very..humped, start to tremble and his penis would come out. I think he may have even ejaculated sometimes. At first I was very grossed out by this and would push him off me, but after awhile I realized it was just the way he did things. After he was done kneading, he would sometimes just curl up and sleep, and sometimes he would wash himself first, and I could tel his penis was very sensitive to touch as he tried to lick himself.

I rescued him in a pouring rain storm when he was about six weeks old. he was tiny and sick. He was neutered at 6 months. He was raised by two older lady cats who adored him and he them, and me of course.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I am closing this temporarily. This personal bickering is doing no one any favours, least of all the OP and other members of the forum.
Differing points of view can be stated without the need for personal attacks
Reopened


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

As the poster has received good advice, and the thread is becoming derailed by personal arguments , I'm closing it.
Early neutering is quite a contentious subject and leading to conflicting advice being offered.:Locktopic


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

lymorelynn said:


> I am closing this temporarily. This personal bickering is doing no one any favours, least of all the OP and other members of the forum.
> Differing points of view can be stated without the need for personal attacks


Oops , cross posted !


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