# Crating a dog is considered animal abuse by law in Finland



## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

I just read this article whihc stated very clearly that crating is legal only for travel and temporary occasions (dog shows, recovering etc) but that's it. For any other purpose it is considered animal abuse and considered criminal. 

As this topic has been discussed at lenght before, I am not going to start another long thread about crating, I just wanted to share this information, as I read about it today.


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## Cassyj (Sep 26, 2015)

We have never created our puppy he has his big kennel and little house he goes in when we are at work but as soon as we are home he is out and not confined apart from baby gates


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

Oh wow... I'm not sure how I feel about that!

I do agree that crates are often abused, but I also think they are an invaluable tool for so many different situations. 

When we have visiting dogs, they get crated for my own peace of mind and their own safety. 
Sick dogs, dogs recovering from injury, puppies who can't be trusted not to electrocute themselves chewing wires, or poison themselves eating things they shouldn't.... So many situations where a crate is not only appropriate but maybe even necessary.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Bit of a silly law though and totally unenforceable, although I imagine crates are not readily available to buy to the general public as a result? I recall hearing this before though, as well as spaying/neutering being illegal in Norway.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Do not favour crates as this can be easily abused. People leave dogs crated when they go to work or to sleep or both! 
How many hours that makes?
Dogs can be left in kennel roomsize at least or pet room if you must.
Best obviously is free run of some part of the house.
Now I like Finland even more.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Do not favour crates as this can be easily abused. People leave dogs crated when they go to work or to sleep or both!
> How many hours that makes?
> Dogs can be left in kennel roomsize at least or pet room if you must.
> Best obviously is free run of some part of the house.
> Now I like Finland even more.


They can definitely be missused. I agree there.
But do I think that crate training a dog is cruel? Not at all. 
Logan hasn't been in his crate for more than half an hour for weeks and the absolute longest ever was three hours because I had to go to hospital. 
I simply didn't trust him not to get up to mischief and end up hurting himself or for the cats to beat him up and cause ruction. 
He has had two times outs of about 4 or 5 minutes in a crate in the last week and he had to go in there for all of 30 seconds on monday when I gave the cats their injections. 
I have zero doubt that if I hadn't crate trained him, he'd have done something very dangerous when he was small. Now he is older and has had four months of training, he is much more sensible.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

It is the same in Sweden, they have some strict dog laws, no idea if they are upheld though. As far as I know all dogs have to be on a registry, there's no routine neutering, there's time limits on how long a dog can be left and there's restricted use of a crate or tie out stake.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Katalyst said:


> They can definitely be missused. I agree there.
> But do I think that crate training a dog is cruel? Not at all.
> Logan hasn't been in his crate for more than half an hour for weeks and the absolute longest ever was three hours because I had to go to hospital.
> I simply didn't trust him not to get up to mischief and end up hurting himself or for the cats to beat him up and cause ruction.
> ...


It seems in Finland limited use is acceptable?

A bit like using playpen to crate toddlers. Because sometimes you must go to the loo or open the oven?

Never crated the dog. Used playpen for one of my kids. So understand you quite well.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Since Jan 2013 by law, in Hungary all dogs up to 20 kgs in weight must have at least 10 square metres of living space.
All dogs over 20 kgs must have between 15 to 20 square metres of living space.

As many dogs are kept outside I think though this refers to kennel space rather than crates. Although you can buy crates from most pet stores it's very rarely you see dogs in crates whilst travelling in cars.The only people I know who do are our trainer and Gwylim's breeder who crate their Schnauzer's for trips to shows and to the vets.

Gwylim was crate trained by his breeder before I got him at 9 months old, but as I'd never crated a dog before I let him have the run of the house like Georgina and he now sleeps on my bed at night.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

How would they ever know how long a dog was crated for to enforce it? I have never crated Dexter, but if I were to get another dog / puppy I would defo crate train so if the unexpected happened the were comfortable in one.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Fortunately it is unlikely that I will ever live in Finland............................. I really do not need the government to tell me how to raise a dog.


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm not a fan of crates. I have one in the van for transporting dogs/cats but that's all. I think the fact I have extreme claustrophobia is why I'm not keen on them.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mmmmm ........... seems a peculiar law to pass to me.

I have a large crate in my kitchen/diner. It's very rarely used, but I have crate trained our Staffy pup. It's not often at all I have to leave her, and even then for a maximum of two hours, but given the free run of my house, I'm certain she would become destructive.

She has a great attraction to electric cables and upholstery and could do a lot of damage in a couple of hours.

Far better, to me, she spends that time in a thickly bedded, comfortable crate, after a good long run in the woods, where she's safe and secure.


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## AceOfSpades113 (Dec 1, 2015)

I've never used a crate. I considered it, but I just didn't think it was fair to lock the dog away, and it is way to easy to abuse and leave the dog in it for long hours at a time, not to mention any dogs I know when let out of a crate have a time of being hyper/excited to be out which leads to destruction, which completely defeats the purpose. To be there are far more effective ways and yes, even if they are slightly more work at least it doesn't include putting a dog in a cage, It was lucky when I even put a rabbit in a cage! I know Sweden also has a similar law. So while I don't have anything against other people crating dogs, I don't intend to do it with any of mine.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> I've never used a crate. I considered it, but I just didn't think it was fair to lock the dog away, and it is way to easy to abuse and leave the dog in it for long hours at a time, not to mention any dogs I know when let out of a crate have a time of being hyper/excited to be out which leads to destruction, which completely defeats the purpose. To be there are far more effective ways and yes, even if they are slightly more work at least it doesn't include putting a dog in a cage, It was lucky when I even put a rabbit in a cage! I know Sweden also has a similar law. So while I don't have anything against other people crating dogs, I don't intend to do it with any of mine.


Could you explain what is a "far more effective way" when you have to leave a pup that is potentially a danger to itself?


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

So if you're allowed to use a crate for your dog if they're injured how are you supposed to get them used to it before they actually _need_ to be in one?

Having Fitz already used to being in a crate (despite the fact he's not regularly been in one for a couple of years at least) has made his ongoing recovery so much easier than it would have been had he never been in one before.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> I've never used a crate. I considered it, but I just didn't think it was fair to lock the dog away, and it is way to easy to abuse and leave the dog in it for long hours at a time, not to mention any dogs I know when let out of a crate have a time of being hyper/excited to be out which leads to destruction, which completely defeats the purpose. To be there are far more effective ways and yes, even if they are slightly more work at least it doesn't include putting a dog in a cage, It was lucky when I even put a rabbit in a cage! I know Sweden also has a similar law. So while I don't have anything against other people crating dogs, I don't intend to do it with any of mine.


I don't disagree with your opinion as I think it is reasonable for the most part and you aren't being judgemental  
However I know a number of crate trained dogs, my own included and none have the sillies when they come out of their crate. 
Saying that, certainly I know that Logan views his crate as his "chill out zone" as that is how I have trained him to see it and so he tends to come out of his crate in a very zen frame of mind. 
The crate was always up and in the dining room until last week when I took it down as it is so rarely used. Until then, the door was always open and he would regularly take himself in there and settle down despite the choice of the two sofas he is allowed on. He clearly doesn't view it negatively.

But again, I CAN see why crates get a bad rep. Unfortunately as with all things, there is always someone doing it badly


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## AceOfSpades113 (Dec 1, 2015)

If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved  On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc. I know it may sound like more effort to some people than putting a dog in a crate, but I don't see it that way and know with relatives who don't like dogs having a crate around would just be an excuse for them to tell me to put the dogs inside for them to come in etc, afterall, there is no better relative detergent than dogs roaming around 
Again I do know where others are coming from, but crates aren't for me. If the dog is happy fair enough, but I've just seen so many dogs fought into crates, or those who cry constantly etc I only know of one dog who enjoys his crate, and that's because he is in a house with three young children so often seeks refuge within it xD It all just depends how often it is used. Another thing is I taught Ace the simple 'bed' command and know I can trust him to remain within the bed once told for whatever duration such as someone at the door
Attached a photo of a young Ace with his big teddy and the blocked fridge in the background


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Do not favour crates as this can be easily abused. People leave dogs crated when they go to work or to sleep or both!
> How many hours that makes?
> Dogs can be left in kennel roomsize at least or pet room if you must.
> Best obviously is free run of some part of the house.
> Now I like Finland even more.


Depends on the dog though doesn't it, as well as the house etc. I could leave my puppy in the kitchen, but she'd likely chew the skirting boards/counters/electrical wires/plug sockets, which I would prefer for her own safety she didn't. Free run of the house would = a dead puppy.

Sure you have easier puppies/adult dogs that don't need to be confined as such, but there are also an equal number that require strict management for their own safety.

People who abuse crates would only abuse other methods if they weren't available.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved  On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc. I know it may sound like more effort to some people than putting a dog in a crate, but I don't see it that way and know with relatives who don't like dogs having a crate around would just be an excuse for them to tell me to put the dogs inside for them to come in etc, afterall, there is no better relative detergent than dogs roaming around
> Again I do know where others are coming from, but crates aren't for me. If the dog is happy fair enough, but I've just seen so many dogs fought into crates, or those who cry constantly etc I only know of one dog who enjoys his crate, and that's because he is in a house with three young children so often seeks refuge within it xD It all just depends how often it is used. Another thing is I taught Ace the simple 'bed' command and know I can trust him to remain within the bed once told for whatever duration such as someone at the door
> Attached a photo of a young Ace with his big teddy and the blocked fridge in the background


It is wise to remember that YOUR experiences do not, necessarily reflect the majority.

All my dogs have been perfectly happy to be crated, as they are naturally denning animals.

I wonder if it is also illegal to keep horses in loose boxes in Finland which is actually much worse IMHO as horses are prey animals, as opposed to predators, and it can make them feel far more insecure, unlike dogs and their crates.

Some of us have had ultra destructive dogs or dogs that are super athletic and can open doors, fridges, turn on the gas etc. Boxes would have just been a mere distraction and not prevented destruction of furniture

Still I really enjoyed reading that your dog was a detergent for relatives.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved  On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc. I know it may sound like more effort to some people than putting a dog in a crate, but I don't see it that way and know with relatives who don't like dogs having a crate around would just be an excuse for them to tell me to put the dogs inside for them to come in etc, afterall, there is no better relative detergent than dogs roaming around
> Again I do know where others are coming from, but crates aren't for me. If the dog is happy fair enough, but I've just seen so many dogs fought into crates, or those who cry constantly etc I only know of one dog who enjoys his crate, and that's because he is in a house with three young children so often seeks refuge within it xD It all just depends how often it is used. Another thing is I taught Ace the simple 'bed' command and know I can trust him to remain within the bed once told for whatever duration such as someone at the door
> Attached a photo of a young Ace with his big teddy and the blocked fridge in the background


You seem to have seen an awful lot of dogs either being wrestled into crates or erupting out of them like raving lunatics.

I assume you have never known anyone who correctly crate trains a dog?

The door on my crate is always open. A number of times I have found Rudi curled up in there, sound asleep, having put herself there.

I can't see myself lifting wires and furniture onto work tops and scattering wooden blocks all over my house, rather than crate her for an hour or so.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved  On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc. I know it may sound like more effort to some people than putting a dog in a crate, but I don't see it that way and know with relatives who don't like dogs having a crate around would just be an excuse for them to tell me to put the dogs inside for them to come in etc, afterall, there is no better relative detergent than dogs roaming around
> Again I do know where others are coming from, but crates aren't for me. If the dog is happy fair enough, but I've just seen so many dogs fought into crates, or those who cry constantly etc I only know of one dog who enjoys his crate, and that's because he is in a house with three young children so often seeks refuge within it xD It all just depends how often it is used. Another thing is I taught Ace the simple 'bed' command and know I can trust him to remain within the bed once told for whatever duration such as someone at the door
> Attached a photo of a young Ace with his big teddy and the blocked fridge in the background


All of that depends on the size of your dog though, Brock is my height when he stands up, if I can reach it, so can he...it isn't as simple as just pushing things back on the worktop.

Also, to reach wires (which are a favourite of his) he'll quite happily shove his nose under the sofa and lift it with his head...while one of us is sitting on it, kitchen chairs and boxes wouldn't keep him out of something.

Not all dogs are the same.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved  On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc. I know it may sound like more effort to some people than putting a dog in a crate, but I don't see it that way and know with relatives who don't like dogs having a crate around would just be an excuse for them to tell me to put the dogs inside for them to come in etc, afterall, there is no better relative detergent than dogs roaming around
> Again I do know where others are coming from, but crates aren't for me. If the dog is happy fair enough, but I've just seen so many dogs fought into crates, or those who cry constantly etc I only know of one dog who enjoys his crate, and that's because he is in a house with three young children so often seeks refuge within it xD It all just depends how often it is used. Another thing is I taught Ace the simple 'bed' command and know I can trust him to remain within the bed once told for whatever duration such as someone at the door
> Attached a photo of a young Ace with his big teddy and the blocked fridge in the background


I don't mean this in a snide way, but I know you mentioned your dogs serious resource guarding issues and with your impending new addition, would you not find a crate for the puppy an appropriate tool considering? I would certainly find it a lifesaver in that situation.

And as mentioned, not all puppies are created equal. It is about what is doing best for that individual in the circumstances.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> It is wise to remember that YOUR experiences do not, necessarily reflect the majority.
> 
> All my dogs have been perfectly happy to be crated, as they are naturally denning animals.
> 
> ...


My house is 200 years old and rather delicate in terms of very old plaster etc and logan is very capable of opening doors to get to the delicate and damaged bits. He can also open our cupboards (which is being addressed next month hopefully) and although he isn't remotely destructive towards furniture, he IS obcessed with my cats and the other animals whos enclosures reside in my living room and are very delicate. 
Although rarely used, the crate was a godsend when he was small. I am sure that the crate training has helped him learn to self calm and kept him safe.


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## LittleHolly (Jun 15, 2015)

I use a crate for both my dogs only used at night time for no more then 8 hours (sometimes one of them will ask to go wee during the night so they are let out then) and if I need to pop out shortly (school run or shopping). I chose to crate train Holly first night I got her as I read a lot before getting her and a lot of websites recommended crate training from day 1, Benji I got him when he was 8 months old he wasn't crate trained and would bark and howl constantly if ever he was left alone so we decided to try and crate train him which he took to straight away and doesn't bark or howl now when we leave him alone (his crate is somewhere he feels safe when alone), his old owner was surprised how well the crate worked as this was one of the reasons why they had to rehome him due to his barking and howling when left alone and she admitted she hadn't even thought about a crate.

I do agree with crates and would use them again however I do know crates can be abused and dogs can be kept in there more then there out of it which in my opinion is neglect.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

sharloid said:


> It is the same in Sweden, they have some strict dog laws, no idea if they are upheld though. As far as I know all dogs have to be on a registry, there's no routine neutering, there's time limits on how long a dog can be left and there's restricted use of a crate or tie out stake.


It explains why Cash's breeder's never crate trained him or his litter siblings then.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Katalyst said:


> My house is 200 years old and rather delicate in terms of very old plaster etc and logan is very capable of opening doors to get to the delicate and damaged bits. He can also open our cupboards (which is being addressed next month hopefully) and although he isn't remotely destructive towards furniture, he IS obcessed with my cats and the other animals whos enclosures reside in my living room and are very delicate.
> Although rarely used, the crate was a godsend when he was small. I am sure that the crate training has helped him learn to self calm and kept him safe.


I'm not even fussed about the damage he would do, it's the damage he'd do to himself that's why he's crated when left.

But I have cats too and he'd follow them round licking them till they'd had enough and scratch him if I wasn't there to tell him to leave them.

He's perfectly happy in there, he's in there now in fact, I've no idea how long he's been in there because I didn't put him in, he's taken himself off for a post walk snooze.


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## Katalyst (Aug 11, 2015)

tabulahrasa said:


> I'm not even fussed about the damage he would do, it's the damage he'd do to himself that's why he's crated when left.
> 
> But I have cats too and he'd follow them round licking them till they'd had enough and scratch him if I wasn't there to tell him to leave them.
> 
> He's perfectly happy in there, he's in there now in fact, I've no idea how long he's been in there because I didn't put him in, he's taken himself off for a post walk snooze.


Oh likewise! The house is falling down as it is and I am not precious about it. But his puppy habit of eating mystery floor lumps where ever we went if I wasn't diligent and the fact that currently the plaster is falling off one of our walls and awaiting repair was a concern as i was worried he'd eat it! 
Dogs can be daft...


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Bob can't cope without being crated, we tried leaving him in an open area like the other 2 and he cried and cried getting all stressed out. The crate for him is routine. we just have a big one so he's got more than enough room


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Katalyst said:


> Oh likewise! The house is falling down as it is and I am not precious about it. But his puppy habit of eating mystery floor lumps where ever we went if I wasn't diligent and the fact that currently the plaster is falling off one of our walls and awaiting repair was a concern as i was worried he'd eat it!
> Dogs can be daft...


We've no plaster he can get easily, but occasionally he'll start just on a random wall, he has a thing for little metal objects as well as wires, so if a screw is loose on something - the first you know about it is when he walks past with his "I have something I think I shouldn't" look on his face.

The worst is socks, which is partly my fault, post-op I taught him to empty the washing machine and tumble drier to keep him occupied, inadvertently showing him where the socks were and how to get them :Banghead Lol


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## toffee44 (Oct 21, 2011)

I live in a 1 bed flat now. My dogs are muddy and wet daily. They have a massive 48" crate. I have no where to put them wet. They come out dry after a couple of hours max. 

They also spend hour and hours asleep in it just because they want to.


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## AceOfSpades113 (Dec 1, 2015)

This was when Ace was younger, now he is able to open doors and such, he has a large kennel in the back garden for when the weather is good if we have to leave him so he can go out, It all likely depends if people had dogs in crates when they were growing up and stuff, where we have never crated dogs casually some may have for a number of reasons, including the dog being too hyper. Just using m own dog as an example again but Ace will pee/poop all over the kitchen now if left alone because of separation anxiety, we talked to a trainer and before we even mentioned a crate, she told us not to be using one with him as it would make it worst if he felt more trapped. The only place I find crates a god send is in work when washing dogs in this weather where I am able to put them in to get them dry. I agree it just depends on each independent dog, person, and house.

As for me getting a new dog/Ace resource guarding, I did seriously consider a crate, thinking of the advantages such as personal space and a break and disadvantages such as possibly feeling separated/left out considering Ace would still be roaming around, and the pup won't be used to crates when he arrives at 4 months. But I already have a plan for if worst comes to worst as far as giving the dogs their own spaces while integrating them in together, and Ace has an entire safe room of my bedroom, where the puppy will not be allowed until I know the dogs are fine with each other and even then will be sleeping downstairs for the first few months. If I thought a crate would help I will get one temporarily, despite not being fond of them ^^


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> To be there are far more effective ways and yes, even if they are slightly more work at least it doesn't include putting a dog in a cage,





AceOfSpades113 said:


> If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved  On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc.


I don't mean to keep picking on your post as so many have replied already, but I wanted to address the "far more effective" part 
Effective how? 
A crate in puppyhood prevents the pup practicing unwanted chewing behaviors to begin with, in your scenario, the pup is still chewing things like wooden chairs - in your case not necessarily harmful, but what if your dog is one who eats what they chew? Intestinal blockages are not fun... Our great dane was one to chew walls, or sit looking out the window gnawing on the window frame  
We actually only crated her for a short while, 100 pound puppies need furniture sized crates, and in a small house it was either crate or sofa, we chose sofa. Once she grew out of our large crate, she then moved to a hallway that we gated off.

But yeah, as already said, it's easy to say "you don't need a crate" if you have limited experience with the diversity of dog types there are out there.

As to putting a dog outside in a kennel instead, sorry, but that ain't happening here. Weather conditions aside, outside dogs are subject to theft, disease from other dogs, predators, bugs, etc., etc. Nope... Mine will stay safe and comfortable inside the house in a crate if need be.


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## Cassyj (Sep 26, 2015)

ouesi said:


> I don't mean to keep picking on your post as so many have replied already, but I wanted to address the "far more effective" part
> Effective how?
> A crate in puppyhood prevents the pup practicing unwanted chewing behaviors to begin with, in your scenario, the pup is still chewing things like wooden chairs - in your case not necessarily harmful, but what if your dog is one who eats what they chew? Intestinal blockages are not fun... Our great dane was one to chew walls, or sit looking out the window gnawing on the window frame
> We actually only crated her for a short while, 100 pound puppies need furniture sized crates, and in a small house it was either crate or sofa, we chose sofa. Once she grew out of our large crate, she then moved to a hallway that we gated off.
> ...


Sorry but I don't understand how a dog in a kennel and run outside are at risk of them things. There is no way other animals are getting in a well built kennel


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

Cassyj said:


> Sorry but I don't understand how a dog in a kennel and run outside are at risk of them things. There is no way other animals are getting in a well built kennel


Where do you live?
Where I live, unless you make it airtight, you're going to get copperheads, brown recluse spiders, actually in the kennel, and plenty of other critter who can come up to the kennel and scare the living bejesus out of the dog trapped in there or at least frustrate the hell out of the dog in the kennel. I guess you've never seen a dog trapped in a kennel going nuts at the wildlife or other animals outside that he can see and smell and hear but not get to?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> This was when Ace was younger, now he is able to open doors and such, he has a large kennel in the back garden for when the weather is good if we have to leave him so he can go out, It all likely depends if people had dogs in crates when they were growing up and stuff, where we have never crated dogs casually some may have for a number of reasons, including the dog being too hyper. Just using m own dog as an example again but Ace will pee/poop all over the kitchen now if left alone because of separation anxiety, we talked to a trainer and before we even mentioned a crate, she told us not to be using one with him as it would make it worst if he felt more trapped. The only place I find crates a god send is in work when washing dogs in this weather where I am able to put them in to get them dry. I agree it just depends on each independent dog, person, and house.
> 
> As for me getting a new dog/Ace resource guarding, I did seriously consider a crate, thinking of the advantages such as personal space and a break and disadvantages *such as possibly feeling separated/left out considering Ace would still be roaming around*, and the pup won't be used to crates when he arrives at 4 months. But I already have a plan for if worst comes to worst as far as giving the dogs their own spaces while integrating them in together, and Ace has an entire safe room of my bedroom, where the puppy will not be allowed until I know the dogs are fine with each other and even then will be sleeping downstairs for the first few months. If I thought a crate would help I will get one temporarily, despite not being fond of them ^^


Dogs don't think like that provided they are introduced to them properly. If anything they make integration easier.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

As I said I managed to train all my dogs not to chew the house and be calm in the house. When they were puppies just bedrooms closed...but one of my own brood was hyperactive..still is! So playpen was essential as he could get into trouble in seconds.
Yes...there was one unlucky kitchen table which all pups chewed on and all.cats scratched...
We let that be...dogs always learnt..
Cats never did...

Now Garfield and Scrip have full run of the house and no damage ever. 
Some illicit scratching behind the new sofas...but we were talking about dogs?


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

sharloid said:


> It is the same in Sweden, they have some strict dog laws, no idea if they are upheld though. As far as I know all dogs have to be on a registry, there's no routine neutering, there's time limits on how long a dog can be left and there's restricted use of a crate or tie out stake.


 I didn't know this. How long is the time limit for leaving a dog? 
i thought it was just the Brits that didn't like leaving their dogs alone all day without a break , although that seems to be changing. I've had "discussions" where its seems in other countries it's acceptable for dogs to be left for 10 hours a day and often crated to.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I don't mean to keep picking on your post as so many have replied already, but I wanted to address the "far more effective" part
> Effective how?
> A crate in puppyhood prevents the pup practicing unwanted chewing behaviors to begin with, in your scenario, the pup is still chewing things like wooden chairs - in your case not necessarily harmful, but what if your dog is one who eats what they chew? Intestinal blockages are not fun... Our great dane was one to chew walls, or sit looking out the window gnawing on the window frame
> We actually only crated her for a short while, 100 pound puppies need furniture sized crates, and in a small house it was either crate or sofa, we chose sofa. Once she grew out of our large crate, she then moved to a hallway that we gated off.
> ...


Why are we leaving aside weather conditions? I think there were two days in July where it didn't rain...it'd be a boat I'd need, not a kennel, lol


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2015)

tabulahrasa said:


> Why are we leaving aside weather conditions? I think there were two days in July where it didn't rain...it'd be a boat I'd need, not a kennel, lol


Well weather conditions are a huge consideration here too, I meant, even without considering weather, it would be problematic.
It's ridiculously hot here in the summer, and no one wants to be outside without a good body of water to spend most of their time in. In the winter, we get below freezing and the furless wonders are not built for cold conditions at all.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I had a playpen for Rudi.

It was great, until the day she leapt out of it when I had a visitor.


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## Cassyj (Sep 26, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Where do you live?
> Where I live, unless you make it airtight, you're going to get copperheads, brown recluse spiders, actually in the kennel, and plenty of other critter who can come up to the kennel and scare the living bejesus out of the dog trapped in there or at least frustrate the hell out of the dog in the kennel. I guess you've never seen a dog trapped in a kennel going nuts at the wildlife or other animals outside that he can see and smell and hear but not get to?


I'm in the UK most wild life he would see is a pigeon


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Cassyj said:


> I'm in the UK most wild life he would see is a pigeon


Depends where you live in the UK - we regularly get fox/deer/squirrels/rats/hedgehogs/frogs and a wide variety of birds including Sparrowhawks. My rottie is really quite frightened of going in the garden after the fox has been about and my pointers would shout the place down if they were in an outside kennel/run and saw deer, especially if the blighters were eating my pansies at the time


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Crate training really isn't be all and end all though, and I do think with how popular crating is these days that not everyone considers not all dogs tolerate or take to them. That is where the misuse of them comes into play. Don't get me wrong, I see how useful they are and find them brilliant solutions to containment and aiding in house training etc. However, a safe room or playpen can offer the same idea if preferable. I crate trained Missy up until she was 6 months old when it was no longer required, and try as I might I could not train Ty to accept it. He screamed blue murder in it, was chewing at the wires, scraping up the plastic bottom and trying to chew at that too. I was not only worried he'd cause himself injury, but we had adjoining neighbours too and whilst it's all good suggesting new owners 'ignore' protests from the pup, it's not always an option to do so with neighbours etc. So he was given his own bed in my room and I never heard another peep from him. Cash came to me having never set foot in one and again, try as I might I couldn't really accustom him to it. We preserved for about a month, but again, with adjoining neighbours it wasn't an option to continue to allow the pounding and crying. He did settle somewhat it in at times, and I think with further time he'd have come round, but to be honest once again, he was as good as gold outside in the home and therefore I didn't find the crate useful in our circumstances. Maybe my next pup will be more crate tolerant as I'm certainly not against using them, but I won't use them come what may if you get what I mean.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

How do they plan on enforcing a law like this? Just make cages illegal? Seems a waste of time and effort on there part really. 

I have never used crates for any of my dogs, though it does seem the "thing to do" nowadays. But yeah unless I had a dog that was a danger to himself/herself when left alone, I don't think I would ever use one.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

Dogloverlou said:


> whilst it's all good suggesting new owners 'ignore' protests from the pup, it's not always an option to do so with neighbours etc. So he was given his own bed in my room and I never heard another peep from him. Cash came to me having never set foot in one and again, try as I might I couldn't really accustom him to it. We preserved for about a month, but again, with adjoining neighbours it wasn't an option to continue to allow the pounding and crying.


I have never put a dog in a crate and let them scream and cry about it, and I have a real problem with the advice to just plop the puppy in a crate and let them cry themselves quiet. I've never done that with any puppy or dog, and have a hard time picturing myself doing that. I never let my human kids just sit there and cry as babies, can't see why I would a dog...
No, crate training IMO is about teaching the dog that the crate is a great place to be, meals happen in the crate, treats happen in the crate, nice things happen in the crate, and when the dog is going in happily and withough issue, then for a few seconds you close the door, then before they notice they want out, you open it up again. Eventually they get to where a closed door isn't a big deal, but if being closed in freaks them out, you go back enough steps that they're okay. 
I'm not one to use a crate for potty training, I never did get that, but then I suck at potty training puppies and generally leave it up to the rest of the dogs in the house to teach it, they do a far better job than I ever could. My only job potty training is to watch for the signs.

I agree that crates can be misused and overused, but that's a human issue, not a tool issue. Take away crates and the same humans will just find another way to confine the dog, or resort to tethering or putting the dog outside or whatever. 
Removing the tool doesn't automatically make a better owner, education however, can


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

It amuses me when people think that crates are the "lazy" option. There's a world of difference between crate training a dog properly and shoving a dog in a crate and walking away.
It took a lot more time and effort to crate train Phoebe properly than just letting her have free run of the house, and if it wasn't absolutely essential to crate her, I wouldn't have bothered with one.
We use a crate for bedtime and while we eat dinner. She's also crated while we work on her separation anxiety as that is where she is least anxious and where she can injure herself the least.
We tried a playpen attached to her crate but she learnt how to escape the playpen at 9 weeks old. The first night she escaped, she ate the stuffing from our duvet while we slept under it so now she has to be locked in her crate.
I wouldn't give a hoot how many things she destroyed but she swallows everything.
Phoebe proofing a room would be next to impossible. She eats AND SWALLOWS carpet, plaster off the walls, skirting boards, cupboard doors, wallpaper.
When I'm asleep in bed at night, it's impossible to know what she's doing, so she's crated for her own safety. If that makes me lazy, then so be it. At least I can sleep peacefully knowing she's not killing herself.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

As usual cognitive bias often comes into play in posts.

Most people are not abusing crates any more than any other tool, such as collars, leads, harnesses, muzzles etc.

What is a kennel or a room?

A large crate.

So it is really not about training a dog re containment .

It is all about size.

People often have an idea of the size of the crate in their own mind, but that does not always equate to the size of the crates of the user.

Where people offer the solution of either a kennel or a room they often forget that the owner may only have "one" room and/or not be able to kennel a dog in their garden due to size, expense, neighbours etc.

As always there are many solutions, but in Finland they have removed one option for the dog owner which could impact on that person owning a dog at all.

A bit like those people who believe that people in flats, without gardens, without fences etc cannot own dogs successfully.

They cannot think outside the crate (I mean box)


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

.


Dogloverlou said:


> Crate training really isn't be all and end all though,* and I do think with how popular crating is these days that not everyone considers not all dogs tolerate or take to them.* That is where the misuse of them comes into play. Don't get me wrong, I see how useful they are and find them brilliant solutions to containment and aiding in house training etc. However, a safe room or playpen can offer the same idea if preferable. I crate trained Missy up until she was 6 months old when it was no longer required, and try as I might I could not train Ty to accept it. He screamed blue murder in it, was chewing at the wires, scraping up the plastic bottom and trying to chew at that too. I was not only worried he'd cause himself injury, but we had adjoining neighbours too and whilst it's all good suggesting new owners 'ignore' protests from the pup, it's not always an option to do so with neighbours etc. So he was given his own bed in my room and I never heard another peep from him. Cash came to me having never set foot in one and again, try as I might I couldn't really accustom him to it. We preserved for about a month, but again, with adjoining neighbours it wasn't an option to continue to allow the pounding and crying. He did settle somewhat it in at times, and I think with further time he'd have come round, but to be honest once again, he was as good as gold outside in the home and therefore I didn't find the crate useful in our circumstances. Maybe my next pup will be more crate tolerant as I'm certainly not against using them, but I won't use them come what may if you get what I mean.


See I thought that, as Bo hated hers, but looking back it was probably my poor conditioning. I tried but I definitely wasn't persistent enough and it backfired. Now I think it is probably no different to training any other behaviour. I think human nature means if we don't start seeing signs of progress quickly we become despondent and look at placing the blame elsewhere (in my case, I thought she simply hated it, rather than thinking I was doing anything wrong!).


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

We've crate trained our puppy because I needed a safe place where he can be when I have to go out. Most of the time I can take him with us but sometimes that isn't suitable and we don't have anywhere in the house that can be puppy-proofed. He also sleeps in his crate all night, with the door locked. However the crate is in our room so if he wakes up needing a wee one of us will take him out to the garden.

I think a crate is a very valuable tool and for some dogs it works wonderfully. When Pippin is older we'll probably put the crate away and maybe only use it when we're going on holiday with him or visiting people with him so he's got a familiar place to go in.

Just now he's taken himself into his crate, curled up and gone to sleep 

Any tool can be misused, I've seen people yanking their dogs while on the lead, causing them to cough and choke. Doesn't mean leads or collars should be banned because some people are stupid


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

stuaz said:


> How do they plan on enforcing a law like this? Just make cages illegal? Seems a waste of time and effort on there part really.
> 
> I have never used crates for any of my dogs, though it does seem the "thing to do" nowadays. But yeah unless I had a dog that was a danger to himself/herself when left alone, I don't think I would ever use one.


I think crates are a very good tool but like everything can be very much abused. Reminds me of e collars. A great tool in the right hands and an object of torture in others. Of course a collar only tortures for seconds, a crate used wrongly causes hours a day of misery.



ouesi said:


> I agree that crates can be misused and overused, but that's a human issue, not a tool issue. Take away crates and the same humans will just find another way to confine the dog, or resort to tethering or putting the dog outside or whatever.
> Removing the tool doesn't automatically make a better owner, education however, can


Just as with making e collars illegal.



stuaz said:


> How do they plan on enforcing a law like this? Just make cages illegal? Seems a waste of time and effort on there part really.
> 
> I have never used crates for any of my dogs, though it does seem the "thing to do" nowadays. But yeah unless I had a dog that was a danger to himself/herself when left alone, I don't think I would ever use one.


Probably easier to enforce if they actually wanted to than enforcing the e collar ban. After all you can hardly hide a crate and the only way you will get caught is if someone reports you on either issue and unless you are using the e collar all the time on walks which would be totally incorrect then no one will know you own one. I know a few people that use them in appropriate situations but I have never actually seen them. They prefer their dog to have freedom on walks and to be safe.

I have used crates and I have kennelled. More often my dogs have been loose in the house. With a destructive dog I would choose kennelling over crating and I have kennelled in all weathers,. Can't really see how the wildlife is a problem. If you have a serial barker a kennel is not ideal but then a lot of dogs look out of the window of their house and bark at both wildlife and human life passing by which is also not ideal. Not sure you should put a dog in a crate for hours and hours whatever the reason (apart from injury, but personally not even happy about that, how on earth did we manage before crates). I am afraid I cannot see the argument that 'my dog goes in the crate to sleep when the door is open'. Of course it does if the crate is the bed. Most dogs love a den but they do not want to stay in it for 10 hours without a break. I know someone who has crates tucked under counters in her kitchen and when the dogs come in they slink off to their small cage and are shut in until they go out again. It would not be a way of keeping a dog that would suit me.


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## Aahlly (Sep 12, 2014)

It's a ridiculous law. It's micromanaging people enforcing that level of control. Some people choose to raise their puppies with a crate, some without. Some dogs love their crates, some hate them. Some people have their homes set up so they don't need a crate, some people have no choice but to use one for safety reasons. How is any of this anyone's business? You do what works for you and your individual dog in the most humane and fair way possible. I know some people misuse their crate but education would surely prevent this? So many mistakes are born out of ignorance not malicious intent. I'm never a fan of sweeping bans of things, especially when there is definite use for some with using a certain piece of equipment, for example a crate.

My dogs are all crate trained. They're _very_ rarely confined in their crates except for travelling but in the past it has been extremely useful to use for certain occasions and I was so happy that I had taken the time to crate train after Ghost had his orthopaedic surgery. It was invaluable for his recovery. Arguing reasons for and against is really neither here nor there because everyone has unique dogs with individual needs and everyone's lifestyle and living situation is different and at the end of the day, we're all doing the best we can.

Incidentally my dogs love their crates and although they're rarely confined, I still have them up with the door tied open because they frequently take themselves off and all pile in the one together for a nap.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Love to know where enforcement comes in. Wouldn't be a shock if it is only used in extreme cases. Police are not always "you broke the law, now you do time". Too much paperwork for one thing  A lot of the time it's a case of using personal judgement. Now get a nieghbour dispute and "official reports" and the situation may become one they cannot ignore. Cannot see it happening often in private homes. On the plus side, it does allow another avenue for prosecution when encountering puppy farming and the like.


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Crating is always a devisive topic here it seems. If you can safely manage your dog without crate training that's wonderful and no one else's concern imo and visa versa.

Like any other piece of equipment used, the trick is in the training, not just flinging a dog into a crate and hoping for the best. it takes time and patience, my elder two dogs loved their crates very quickly but I really had my work cut out with my whippet but we got there eventually. Dogs are denning animals at the end of the day. All run happily to their crates when told (and they are only crated at night and when all of us are out) and I have to keep them shut during the day as Mr whippet now quite likes to go and have a kip in the others crates, which winds my lab up no end. Yes, my house may resemble a pet shop but there we are.

Crate training means we can take the dogs on holiday and slip out for an hour for a meal without the worry that someone else's property may get damaged, that if the need for a vet stay ever arises, my dogs won't at least be frightened by the crates there. Of course they can be used as a means of abuse, as can collars, rolled up news papers, hands, if you are going to be cruel to a dog, you're going to be cruel crate or not.

Yes, people managed without crates before, but we also 'managed' without seat belts in the back of cars and concrete under children's climbing frames. Times change and crating can be a very viable option today.

In my own circumstance, with three dogs, I would find it very hard without crates. One could manage to make it onto the dining room table the night he arrived, is a compulsive scavenger and can reach my shoulder when jumping and I am pretty tall. I cannot find every piece of damn Lego my son loses and I would end up with a very ill dog were he allowed free run unsupervised. He would also wind up my other dogs and one would tell him off very harshly.
One would try and gain access to a window so he could obsess at the birds and finds its very difficult to settle and the other would be bothered by the other two.
Also, the top of crates are extremely handy for placing your ironing and the remote controls.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Mrsred said:


> Crating is always a devisive topic here it seems. If you can safely manage your dog without crate training that's wonderful and no one else's concern imo and visa versa.
> 
> Yes, people managed without crates before, but we also 'managed' without seat belts in the back of cars and* concrete under children's climbing frames*. Times change and crating can be a very viable option today.
> 
> .


That bit brought back memories. I was a wimp going down the slide head first and my much older sister once persuaded me to do it then turned her back so I crashed on to the concrete and was concussed. I was probably about 4 or 5 but i still have very strong memories about it because we were having pheasant for lunch which I was quite excited about. I remember being put in the little sitting room to lie down and having my pheasant brought in. It tasted totally disgusting and it was years before I could bring myself to try it again. Of course it tasted delicious the next time but my concussion must have affected my taste buds. Think of all the lovely pheasant meals I missed in the interim just because no one had realised at the time that concrete and kids heads did not mix.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

smokeybear said:


> What is a kennel or a room?
> A large crate.
> So it is really not about training a dog re containment .
> It is all about size.


Good point. Im not sure what the difference between a crate and a kennel is (indoors vs outdoors maybe??).
Crating is really my only option to keeping all my dogs. I mean I could have a pet room set up in the bedroom instead but then I would be taking a very social animal and locking it up away from the rest of its family, or it could be in a crate hanging out with the rest of us for company. Given that both my boys are very low energy, love their crates and hate being isolated I know which one seems more cruel to me. I would probably rather rehome then do that to them.
As it is they happily jump in their crates and when I let them out they just wind up snoozing in the same room anyways.....just a few feet away!

I can see why people might be concerned about misuse of crates but they are a lifesaver to some people and their pets. I really hate knee jerk reactions about things, its like banning certain dog breeds coz some people cant be trusted to look after them properly.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

I'm not sure how it will be enforced, but I find now that crates are way overused.

We've never used one, got by just fine.

We don't allow or want zoo animals to spend the majority of their day in a cage, so why then a dog? It makes little sense to me and I hate hearing of the situation where the dog/s are crated while people are at work, so six, eight or ten hours in a crate, then a crate through the night. Those dogs are spending the majority of their time locked up, it doesn't sit right with me, even if you do give them a long walk in between, it's too long.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I'm not sure how it will be enforced, but I find now that crates are way overused.
> 
> We've never used one, got by just fine.
> 
> We don't allow or want zoo animals to spend the majority of their day in a cage, so why then a dog? It makes little sense to me and I ghate hearing of the situation where the dog/s are crated while people are at work, so six, eight or ten hours in a crate, then a crate through the night. Those dogs are spending the majority of their time locked up, it doesn't sit right with me, even if you do give them a long walk in between, it's too long.


But being in one for the majority of the day or using them at all are two different issues.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> I'm not sure how it will be enforced, but I find now that crates are way overused.
> 
> We've never used one, got by just fine.
> 
> We don't allow or want zoo animals to spend the majority of their day in a cage, so why then a dog? It makes little sense to me and I ghate hearing of the situation where the dog/s are crated while people are at work, so six, eight or ten hours in a crate, then a crate through the night. Those dogs are spending the majority of their time locked up, it doesn't sit right with me, even if you do give them a long walk in between, it's too long.


I think being crated at night is sort of irrelevant as dogs are (or should be) asleep. So as far I can see there is no different between being shut in a suitable sized crate and being confined to one room?

Someone who puts a dog in crate for 10 hours a day would only find some other method of confinement if crates were not available. It is not the tool but the mentality of the owner.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

The door to the crate in the front room has been open all day so far. This is what it currently looks like:










They also have the option of two sofas (one of which has that same fleecy blanket on it) plus a pile of two kingsize duvets in front of the fire.

Not really that relevant to the discussion I know, just made me smile


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## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

The swedish have some pretty good animal welfare rules in my opinion. I highly doubt most of them are enforced but if it gets even a few people questioning why they are in place then it can only be a good thing. 

As for the specifics of crating I have nothing against it in itself but do feel it can be abused but that's the same as anything can potentially be abused really.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

The law was made for the benefit of the dog, not of the owner. Naturally a law alone doesn´t stop abuse, but it does send a message of what is right and wrong. And I believe it is right that dogs need to be able to move about, and in a crate they cannot do that. The experts behind this law were vets, and I think they know what they are talking about. I hope this thread actually made some think twice about using a crate and closing the door. Naturally it is good to get a dog used to being in one as well, as there might be times a dog needs to be crated, like recovering from an illness, travelling etc. But those times are always exceptions.

I had two pups in a flat and it didn´t occur to be that they shouldn´t be able to walk freely. When they had their worst biting phase, we had a branch on the balcony. It was messy of course, but they loved it and as a result left most other things alone. Funny, how in the old days people coped with pups and dogs without crates.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

labradrk said:


> I think being crated at night is sort of irrelevant as dogs are (or should be) asleep. So as far I can see there is no different between being shut in a suitable sized crate and being confined to one room?
> 
> Someone who puts a dog in crate for 10 hours a day would only find some other method of confinement if crates were not available. It is not the tool but the mentality of the owner.


Not really, it's nice for them to stretch their legs about and move around. All of mine have always walked around in the night at times, to find a cooler spot, sometimes in the draught of a door, up on the sofa, down on the floor.
I don't think we've ever had a dog that stays in one place from night until morning, as I think is quite natural.
For me it would still count, it's still time locked in a cage.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Funny, how in the old days people coped with pups and dogs without crates.


In the old days pups died from ingesting things they shouldn't....
Lots of dogs were relegated to the outside, chained to a dog house or tree, at the mercy of the elements and whatever else was roaming the neighborhood.

When I was a kid (in pre-crate times) we had a few scares with puppies getting in to things that were dangerous to them, on another occasion I came home to a new dog with SA having jumped through a glass window, blood everywhere. A good quality vari-kennel - properly introduced, would have prevented that kind of damage.

I'm happy to crate now even if I didn't grow up doing that because it means the dogs are safer. In the same way I put my own children in carseats and make them wear bike helmets even though I never did. When we know better, we do better 

Again, not saying crates can't be abused. They can be and I do see that as well. But such a helpful safety and well-being tool shouldn't be maligned because of the actions of those who use them irresponsibly.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

I know lots of young children who would also like to get up during the night and crawl around and stretch their legs but they can't as they're put into a cot so they can't hurt themselves or get into mischief while their parents sleep. Essentially a cot is a cage with no roof but it's not deemed cruel.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

Nettles said:


> I know lots of young children who would also like to get up during the night and crawl around and stretch their legs but they can't as they're put into a cot so they can't hurt themselves or get into mischief while their parents sleep. Essentially a cot is a cage with no roof but it's not deemed cruel.


Just to be a PITA though... 
I don't crate new puppies while I sleep and I don't "crate" new babies either. 
Little ones who aren't sleeping through the night sleep in the bed with me, I'm a light sleeper, the pup stirs, I scoop her up take her outside, wee, back to bed. No fuss, no muss, and pup learns that nighttime is for sleeping and good manners around humans sleeping. Human babies are easier because of diapers and breasts, don't have to actually wake up all the way 
As they get older, a futon mattress on the bedroom floor and a closed door. Yes, that ended up being both kids and dogs LOL! What can I say, we're a bit... alternative in this house


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> I know lots of young children who would also like to get up during the night and crawl around and stretch their legs but they can't as they're put into a cot so they can't hurt themselves or get into mischief while their parents sleep. Essentially a cot is a cage with no roof but it's not deemed cruel.


Not really.

A young child wanting to stretch their legs? No. But a dog, yes, they do stretch their legs out and change to cooler or warmer spots as their bodies get colder or warmer.

I am not talking about mischief, none of the dogs have ever done anything in the night, even Alfie who loves to play all day doesn't touch his toy box at night, even now he sleeps with the Christmas tree and santas and gifts on the floor, he doesn't bother them.
I'm saying that we have never had one dog that hasn't needed to move at night to get in a different position in a different spot. It is not comparable to a baby in a cot. A cot is a bed with sides on it, as humans we all sleep on a bed for the whole night (on the whole), so it's an adapted bed. A dog is not the same as a human being.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Nettles said:


> I know lots of young children who would also like to get up during the night and crawl around and stretch their legs but they can't as they're put into a cot so they can't hurt themselves or get into mischief while their parents sleep. Essentially a cot is a cage with no roof but it's not deemed cruel.


And therefore good for babies and puppies, yes. Not that I've used a crate but I can see how they would help manage a chewing 5 month old puppy. For short periods when they are unsupervised.

The only time a wolf makes a den is when she is going to have puppies and the puppies are brought up in a confined space for protection and warmth. As soon as they can wander they leave the den and are grouped elsewhere. The adults never return to the den. It's a puppy thing not an adult thing.

As always, those of us on a pet forum are not your average owners. We tend to be a little more informed, so I would expect everyone here to be careful with space and time limits in regard to crating. But I have had concerns for sometime about the misuse of crates from people who do use them too much. I dislike them being used to correct behaviour, too. Very young puppies aside if an adolescent dog is over excitable/chewing/biting/demanding attention/bothering humans when they eat etc then I want the owner to look at *why* rather than simply shut the problem away. And there is no real guidance as to what size crate to buy either (except that your dog must be able to turn around) or how long is acceptable to leave a dog confined. So I would welcome some official guidance for new owners on this. I don't think it's necessary to make crates illegal, just make owners a little more informed.

And as for what is the difference between a kennel/play pen and a crate ...space. The ability to move, stretch, play, roll and walk ...as well as sleep.

J


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> The law was made for the benefit of the dog, not of the owner. Naturally a law alone doesn´t stop abuse, but it does send a message of what is right and wrong. And I believe it is right that dogs need to be able to move about, and in a crate they cannot do that. The experts behind this law were vets, and I think they know what they are talking about. I hope this thread actually made some think twice about using a crate and closing the door. Naturally it is good to get a dog used to being in one as well, as there might be times a dog needs to be crated, like recovering from an illness, travelling etc. But those times are always exceptions.
> 
> I had two pups in a flat and it didn´t occur to be that they shouldn´t be able to walk freely. When they had their worst biting phase, we had a branch on the balcony. It was messy of course, but they loved it and as a result left most other things alone. * Funny, how in the old days people coped with pups and dogs without crates.*


See I don't get this argument because you could apply it to absolutely everything. How did people cope without cars, electricity, medicine, gas, mod cons? most people can cope without most things but it doesn't mean we should have to. What is the problem if something which benefits both dog and owner is used appropriately?

There seems to be two trains of thought coming from people that dislike crates. One is that they are abused (dogs being left in them for too long etc) which apparently makes universally them bad. Uh, nope, that is the owner misusing the tool rather than the crate being 'bad'.

The second is that because they have always managed their dog(s) successfully without crates, it is almost instigated that everyone else should be able to. EVERY situation and more importantly every dog is different. Some require much heavier management than others and until you have been there and done that, don't judge.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Just to be a PITA though...
> I don't crate new puppies while I sleep and I don't "crate" new babies either.
> Little ones who aren't sleeping through the night sleep in the bed with me, I'm a light sleeper, the pup stirs, I scoop her up take her outside, wee, back to bed. No fuss, no muss, and pup learns that nighttime is for sleeping and good manners around humans sleeping. Human babies are easier because of diapers and breasts, don't have to actually wake up all the way
> As they get older, a futon mattress on the bedroom floor and a closed door. Yes, that ended up being both kids and dogs LOL! What can I say, we're a bit... alternative in this house


I think that is fantastic, if that is what you choose to do and if I was a light sleeper and had babies, it would be something I may consider. Here though, midwives and health visitors recommend not sleeping with your baby due to them overheating and SIDS. The risk of SIDS is apparently higher in babies who sleep with their parents. No idea if that's fact based or not, that is just what new mums are advised.
As for puppies, well I've only had one, but with her, her crate is in our bedroom so when she cried, she was scooped up from her crate and carried outside to pee and back to her bed again. No fuss, pee, bed, sleep. I'm a very heavy sleeper so I also had multiple alarms set at regular intervals throughout the night to waken me for toilet duty just in case I didn't hear her cry.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> A dog is not the same as a human being.


Thanks for clarifying this. I wasn't sure...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Thanks for clarifying this. I wasn't sure...


You are very welcome. No trouble at all.

You was the one comparing a babies sleeping arrangement to a dogs of course, not me.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> And therefore good for babies and puppies, yes. Not that I've used a crate but I can see how they would help manage a chewing 5 month old puppy. For short periods when they are unsupervised.
> 
> The only time a wolf makes a den is when she is going to have puppies and the puppies are brought up in a confined space for protection and warmth. As soon as they can wander they leave the den and are grouped elsewhere. The adults never return to the den. It's a puppy thing not an adult thing.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone disagrees that crates can and are misused but for those of us who use them for the safety of our mischievous pups/dogs, are using them as a kinder, safer option than multiple vet visits for ingestion of foreign objects.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> You are very welcome. No trouble at all.
> 
> You was the one comparing a babies sleeping arrangement to a dogs of course, not me.


Im not sure where I said you were the one comparing babies and dogs sleeping arrangements. I am aware that was me, so again, thanks for pointing out the obvious.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Im not sure where I said you were the one comparing babies and dogs sleeping arrangements. I am aware that was me, so again, thanks for pointing out the obvious.


I didn't say you said it was me, but as you were clearly comparing the two for the sleeping arrangements, I just pointed out it was baseless as dogs and babies are different and have different sleeping patterns and requirements for sleep.
If it were so obvious, why bother comparing them in the first place?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Nettles said:


> for those of us who use them for the safety of our mischievous pups/dogs, are using them as a kinder, safer option than multiple vet visits for ingestion of foreign objects.


I have to admit the only time any of my animals have been to the vets for ingesting was 25 years ago when our 2 year old GSD ate a stone whilst playing on the beach ..that was scary. All our pups and young rescues have got over the curious stage quite quickly. Apart from the odd rope coloured poo which I used to find from time to time in the garden lol

J


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## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Nettles said:


> I know lots of young children who would also like to get up during the night and crawl around and stretch their legs but they can't as they're put into a cot so they can't hurt themselves or get into mischief while their parents sleep. Essentially a cot is a cage with no roof but it's not deemed cruel.


I've no qualms in using a crate for a child.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Do not favour crates as this can be easily abused. People leave dogs crated when they go to work or to sleep or both!
> How many hours that makes?
> *Dogs can be left in kennel roomsize at least or pet room if you must.*
> Best obviously is free run of some part of the house.
> Now I like Finland even more.


We left our westie crated with her brother (Loki - great dane) and sister (Grace - staffie) loose in the utility room. She shared a room with them for company, but Loki (aka" Loki-big-bollix", aka "the donkey", aka "that bliddy eedjit") could not be trusted not to stand, sit or lie on her (and she couldn't be trusted not to start a fight with her sister - she tormented her constantly, but Grace rarely responded - we didn't dare risk the day she did and we weren't there).

Anyhoo - the crate is Loki's puppy cage, which is the largest crate available to humankind (and she was never left more than (very occasionally) overnight - but usually a couple of hours. But you are right. People do abuse cages, and I've seen TV programmes where german shepherds were stuck for ten hours a day in cages not big enough for them to stand up or turn around in and that is HORRENDOUS!

Cages (indoor kennels is the term I prefer) are a superb tool to keep a puppy safe, but if you need to use them for long periods during the day, perhaps you should re-think having a dog in the first place.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

foxiesummer said:


> I've no qualms in using a crate for a child.


Nor me - but I wouldn't keep them incarcerated for longer than 21 years. Anything more is excessive and I frown upon it.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

AceOfSpades113 said:


> If you have a fire, have the fire block on, make sure any wires are at a safe height or blocked from the gnawing puppy, Anytime we were going out we would have left the puppy in the kitchen, making sure everything on the counters was put away or pushed back, ensuring nothing was left lying on the floor which could have been dangerous and giving him a toy to play with, as well as a giant dog teddy for him to lie with. Fridge and cooker were blocked away using wooden blocks. Of course there were the wooden chairs which, as he got slightly older he gnawed against, but having a pup just wouldn't be the same without he sacrifices involved  On Jake, who was our labxstaffy who enjoyed being especially destructive we cut of half the living room for him away from the wires and such along with the entire kitchen, blocking in the chairs with boxes etc. I know it may sound like more effort to some people than putting a dog in a crate, but I don't see it that way and know with relatives who don't like dogs having a crate around would just be an excuse for them to tell me to put the dogs inside for them to come in etc, afterall, there is no better relative detergent than dogs roaming around
> Again I do know where others are coming from, but crates aren't for me. If the dog is happy fair enough, but I've just seen so many dogs fought into crates, or those who cry constantly etc I only know of one dog who enjoys his crate, and that's because he is in a house with three young children so often seeks refuge within it xD It all just depends how often it is used. Another thing is I taught Ace the simple 'bed' command and know I can trust him to remain within the bed once told for whatever duration such as someone at the door
> Attached a photo of a young Ace with his big teddy and the blocked fridge in the background


What a little sossige! Pity they have to grow up (_*sigh*_)


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Katalyst said:


> I don't disagree with your opinion as I think it is reasonable for the most part and you aren't being judgemental
> However I know a number of crate trained dogs, my own included and none have the sillies when they come out of their crate.
> Saying that, certainly I know that* Logan views his crate as his "chill out zone" a*s that is how I have trained him to see it and so he tends to come out of his crate in a very zen frame of mind.
> The crate was always up and in the dining room until last week when I took it down as it is so rarely used. Until then, the door was always open and he would regularly take himself in there and settle down despite the choice of the two sofas he is allowed on. He clearly doesn't view it negatively.
> ...


Ours too - Grace used to love her crate - it was her bedroom and no-one was allowed to disturb her (though often one or more cats would be in there with her, as the door was never closed after her "naughty puppy' months). Sophie also likes her (huge) crate, and if she disappears from the living room, that's where she is.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> In the old days pups died from ingesting things they shouldn't....
> Lots of dogs were relegated to the outside, chained to a dog house or tree, at the mercy of the elements and whatever else was roaming the neighborhood.
> 
> .


And thankfully that too is forbidden. What is happening with this attitude "the owners always knows what´s best is that it makes abuse so easy." Laws are really no problem for those who are respect laws anyway. It´s aimed to be the quideline telling what is not allowed and makes ot possible for the police etc. to intervene. And the law states clearly "temporary use for short periods is allowed (recovery etc.). With all the animal abuse happening, we really need stricter laws. The well being of one´s animals is not a matter of personal freedom only. No one has to have a dog, but if you do, you should be be legally obliged to take care of it.



labradrk said:


> See I don't get this argument because you could apply it to absolutely everything. How did people cope without cars, electricity, medicine, gas, mod cons? most people can cope without most things but it doesn't mean we should have to. What is the problem if something which benefits both dog and owner is used appropriately?
> 
> There seems to be two trains of thought coming from people that dislike crates. One is that they are abused (dogs being left in them for too long etc) which apparently makes universally them bad. Uh, nope, that is the owner misusing the tool rather than the crate being 'bad'.
> 
> The second is that because they have always managed their dog(s) successfully without crates, it is almost instigated that everyone else should be able to. EVERY situation and more importantly every dog is different. Some require much heavier management than others and until you have been there and done that, don't judge.


If I understand you correcty, you are saying that dogs owners should not cope without crates, as it is possible to have them? Why? The question about a crate is not a matter of taste, it is a matter of an animal abuse. Like I have said earlier, temporary use if a crate for a good reason is possible, but as a regular basis, just because one can´t cope with one´s dog it is not ok. And y a crate I mean a small cage, where the dog can only stand up, not walk about, and where the door is locked.

If a dog is the wrong type for you; too active, too big, and demanding "heavier management" ( whatever that means), and as a result the only way to cope with it is to crate it for hours as a regular basis, well, IMO the dog is better off in a shelter, as at least it can walk about. Better still, get the right dog for you, as there are really so many different types you can have. Like you said, dogs are different, and so are the circumstances owners can provide for them.

Crating a dog, because it may eat a wrong thing seems to a bit far fetched, as any dog can pick anything on a walk. Sadly, they often do. But what can you do? Not walk them? At least at home you can make sure all dangerous items are either put away or protected.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

lostbear said:


> Nor me - but I wouldn't keep them incarcerated for longer than 21 years. Anything more is excessive and I frown upon it.


OMG ..... 21 years! I rehomed mine long before that!


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

I have never used a crate for a dog, but being a member on here I can see the advantages/benefits of using a dog crate responsibly. However my puppies have always had their own safe room when unsupervised, until I feel I can allow them access to the whole house.

It is sad that such laws are necessary.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> And thankfully that too is forbidden. What is happening with this attitude "the owners always knows what´s best is that it makes abuse so easy." Laws are really no problem for those who are respect laws anyway. It´s aimed to be the quideline telling what is not allowed and makes ot possible for the police etc. to intervene. And the law states clearly "temporary use for short periods is allowed (recovery etc.). With all the animal abuse happening, we really need stricter laws. The well being of one´s animals is not a matter of personal freedom only. No one has to have a dog, but if you do, you should be be legally obliged to take care of it.
> 
> If I understand you correcty, you are saying that dogs owners should not cope without crates, as it is possible to have them? Why? The question about a crate is not a matter of taste, it is a matter of an animal abuse. Like I have said earlier, temporary use if a crate for a good reason is possible, but as a regular basis, just because one can´t cope with one´s dog it is not ok. And y a crate I mean a small cage, where the dog can only stand up, not walk about, and where the door is locked.
> 
> ...


Heavier management would be a dog like mine...he has varied medical problems which limit his exercise and have created fairly severe behavioural issues.

So at 3, he still chews and he needs somewhere he can stay calmly where he doesn't have to interact with visitors.

The plan for the crate was that I'd use it while he was a puppy...but just as he was finishing teething he had his first operation and bout of crate rest, so plans had to change.


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> And the law states clearly "temporary use for short periods is allowed (recovery etc.).


As I've said previously though, once a dog is already injured and in need of crate rest is not the best time to first expose them to one. When you've got a dog who absolutely needs to be kept as immobile as possible following surgery you don't have the luxury of being able to gradually introduce the concept of spending time in a crate.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> I didn't say you said it was me, but as you were clearly comparing the two for the sleeping arrangements, I just pointed out it was baseless as dogs and babies are different and have different sleeping patterns and requirements for sleep.
> If it were so obvious, why bother comparing them in the first place?


Ok..


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> And thankfully that too is forbidden. What is happening with this attitude "the owners always knows what´s best is that it makes abuse so easy." Laws are really no problem for those who are respect laws anyway. It´s aimed to be the quideline telling what is not allowed and makes ot possible for the police etc. to intervene. And the law states clearly "temporary use for short periods is allowed (recovery etc.). With all the animal abuse happening, we really need stricter laws. The well being of one´s animals is not a matter of personal freedom only. No one has to have a dog, but if you do, you should be be legally obliged to take care of it.
> 
> If I understand you correcty, you are saying that dogs owners should not cope without crates, as it is possible to have them? Why? The question about a crate is not a matter of taste, it is a matter of an animal abuse. Like I have said earlier, temporary use if a crate for a good reason is possible, but as a regular basis, just because one can´t cope with one´s dog it is not ok. And y a crate I mean a small cage, where the dog can only stand up, not walk about, and where the door is locked.
> 
> ...


Eeeeek.....the generalizations!

What part of putting a puppy in a crate when appropriate translates to "not coping"? if more puppy owners CORRECTLY used crates, perhaps there would be far fewer puppies relinquished to rescues because their owners are unable to manage them effectively in the house.

Dogs in a correct sized crate can do more than just stand up.

Perhaps you should send your thoughts about crating to places like the Guide Dog Association, Canine Partners, etc., all of whom advocate the correct use of crates to their puppy walkers. Or even the police and military, and their operational dogs spend a rather large chunk of their day crated in vehicles. I am sure they would be delighted to hear that you believe their dogs would be better off in shelters 

If you believe that all dangerous items can be put away or protected then you clearly have never owned a dog with a serious appetite for destruction.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Magyarmum said:


> OMG ..... 21 years! *I rehomed mine long before that!*


You lucky sod!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> I have to admit the only time any of my animals have been to the vets for ingesting was 25 years ago when our 2 year old GSD ate a stone whilst playing on the beach ..that was scary. All our pups and young rescues have got over the curious stage quite quickly. Apart from the odd rope coloured poo which I used to find from time to time in the garden lol
> 
> J


Lol those pesky rope poops make an appearance here too. Phoebe swallows everything. We've only had a few small stones that we didn't fish out of her gob quick enough and appeared in her poo the following day but the worst and the one that worries me the most is stuffing out of things. Cushions, quilts, soft toys, even a padded jacket were all sneakily destuffed (in silence I might add lol) :Shifty


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

foxiesummer said:


> I've no qualms in using a crate for a child.


Me either.. but not once they can talk and tell the authorities


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

lostbear said:


> You lucky sod!


It's all a matter of training!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

labradrk said:


> Dogs in a correct sized crate can do more than just stand up.


Could you please tell me where I can buy a ready made crate to accommodate Oscar. Floor area required must be greater than 160cms x 210cms x standing height 90cms .:Hilarious


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

labradrk said:


> See I don't get this argument because you could apply it to absolutely everything. How did people cope without cars, electricity, medicine, gas, mod cons? most people can cope without most things but it doesn't mean we should have to. What is the problem if something which benefits both dog and owner is used appropriately?


But a lot of them are for convenience and that is why crates are used in the mainstream.
It's seen as easier, the dog is put away in it's box while people are out or in bed or eating. So many dogs are spending too much time in them, without people even realising it as it is a convenience. If we don't accept an e collar as a quick fix then why a cage?



Nettles said:


> Ok..


Ok then.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Could you please tell me where can I buy a ready made crate to accommodate Oscar. Floor area required must greater than 160cms x 210cms x standing height 90cms .:Hilarious


You can purchase custom crates to accommodate any size of dog if need be.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

tabulahrasa said:


> Heavier management would be a dog like mine...he has varied medical problems which limit his exercise and have created fairly severe behavioural issues. So at 3, he still chews and he needs somewhere he can stay calmly where he doesn't have to interact with visitors.
> 
> The plan for the crate was that I'd use it while he was a puppy...but just as he was finishing teething he had his first operation and bout of crate rest, so plans had to change.





SingingWhippet said:


> As I've said previously though, once a dog is already injured and in need of crate rest is not the best time to first expose them to one. When you've got a dog who absolutely needs to be kept as immobile as possible following surgery you don't have the luxury of being able to gradually introduce the concept of spending time in a cratof e.


Like the law stipulates, for recovery you can use crates. The abuse is about crating a dog for a long time regularly without a good reason (like medical). It is aimed at the well being of a dog,



labradrk said:


> Eeeeek.....the generalizations!
> 
> What part of putting a puppy in a crate when appropriate translates to "not coping"? if more puppy owners CORRECTLY used crates, perhaps there would be far fewer puppies relinquished to rescues because their owners are unable to manage them effectively in the house. Dogs in a correct sized crate can do more than just stand up.
> 
> ...


Many suggested already that instead of a crate you can use one room to keep yur dog safe, if that is the only way. Also I assume that no association would promote using a crate for hours regularly as that is abuse. Police dogs here are pretty well cared for, they live in families, not in kennels, they are trained with positive methods (I actually met a police dog trainer and I was impressed by their training methods) and the hours they work and are kept in cars are heavily regulated. This is not only a matter of animal welfare, it is a question of money and ability to a dog for policing. A well kept animal can be used for work longer, so it saves a lot of money. Also a healthy dog is reliable, whereas an unhealthy one isn´t. It is very simple really. I´d like to believe it is the same in Britain, as Britain has had a reputation of dog lovers.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> But a lot of them are for convenience and that is why crates are used in the mainstream.
> It's seen as easier, the dog is put away in it's box while people are out or in bed or eating. So many dogs are spending too much time in them, without people even realising it as it is a convenience. If we don't accept an e collar as a quick fix then why a cage?
> 
> Ok then.


What is wrong with convenience if it keeps the dog safe and the owners house from being wrecked? it would be more of an inconvenience if a dog was potentially electrocuting itself or ingesting who knows what.

Who are these "so many dogs" that you know that spend too much time in a crate?


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Like the law stipulates, for recovery you can use crates.


I know, what I'm saying is that in order for a crate to be used successfully during rehabilitation the dog _already needs to be accepting of being in one before they need one for recovery_. I'm sure some dogs would adjust very quickly with no problems but there are plenty who would object if their first experience of being in a crate was suddenly being expected to cope with being shut in one 24/7 post injury or surgery.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Reading a lot of the replies it appears the main problem is, as Mrs Zee says, getting an unsuitable dog for your environment and life style. Just because you can get hold of a crate for initial puppyhood does not mean you should rely on it. If your dog is so damn destructive it cannot be left on its own in the house it must be incredibly miserable so why on earth would you then shove it in a crate so that it cannot even express its misery. Before crates people used to either find a way to manage the dog so it was happy or find another home for it where it could be managed in such a way that it had no need to want to be destructive. Surely dogs deserve to be happy. I just cannot imagine owning a dog that does not very quickly fit into my life which includes staying home when necessary. And of course I have had dogs that chew or are destructive at some time. I had a collie that went through a phase of ripping the car up in the first few minutes she was left. We got over it and it stopped happening. Crates did not really exist back then or I am sure I would have been tempted to put her in one to solve the problem and had a frustrated dog.
And yes, I have used crates with my young puppies.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

labradrk said:


> You can purchase custom crates to accommodate any size of dog if need be.


Do you not think a crate of such dimensions is a little preposterous. Wouldn't it be better and far cheaper to simply confine a dog of such a size to a single room? 

Oh, and by the way, I also forgot to mention the thickness of steel required. A bored Sar' can soon chew his way through 3mm.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> Like the law stipulates, for recovery you can use crates. The abuse is about crating a dog for a long time regularly without a good reason (like medical). It is aimed at the well being of a dog,
> 
> Many suggested already  that instead of a crate you can use one room to keep yur dog safe, if that is the only way. Also I assume that no association would promote using a crate for hours regularly as that is abuse. Police dogs here are pretty well cared for, they live in families, not in kennels, they are trained with positive methods (I actually met a police dog trainer and I was impressed by their training methods) and the hours they work and are kept in cars are heavily regulated. This is not only a matter of animal welfare, it is a question of money and ability to a dog for policing. A well kept animal can be used for work longer, so it saves a lot of money. Also a healhty dog is reliable, whereas an unhealhty one isn´t. It is very simple really. I´d like to believe it is the same in Britain, as Britain has had a reputation of dog lovers.


And what about those who don't have one safe room? or those with destructive dogs?

At what point in time does leaving a dog in a crate become "abuse"? you say "hours"....so what are we talking, 1, 2, 3? at what point does acceptable become abuse?

What you mean is that it is abuse in YOUR opinion, as it evidently isn't considered abuse by experts in the industry.


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## lostbear (May 29, 2013)

Zaros said:


> Could you please tell me where I can buy a ready made crate to accommodate Oscar. Floor area required must be greater than 160cms x 210cms x standing height 90cms .:Hilarious


Try "Bliddy-Hell-Are-Are-You-Sure-That's-A-Dog R Us" That's where we got Loki's stab- er, _crate. _ He fitted till he was five months old. That was the best part of 200 quid well-spent, I don't think!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

lostbear said:


> Try "Bliddy-Hell-Are-Are-You-Sure-That's-A-Dog R Us" That's where we got Loki's stab- er, _crate. _ He fitted till he was five months old. That was the best part of 200 quid well-spent, I don't think!


Oscar's the original B4st4rdville Hound. Sherlock Holmes would have 5hit himself clear through. :Hilarious


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

labradrk said:


> And what about those who don't have one safe room? or those with destructive dogs?
> 
> At what point in time does leaving a dog in a crate become "abuse"? you say "hours"....so what are we talking, 1, 2, 3? at what point does acceptable become abuse?
> 
> What you mean is that it is abuse in YOUR opinion, as it evidently isn't considered abuse by experts in the industry.


I don´t think anyone has a safe room ready made, you create one, if you really need it. Destructive dogs needs to be defined a bit more, I am afraid. They could be dogs with not enough walks/stimulation/Company/ training/health issues or just too active for the life style you can provide. An active collie can be destructive in one family but a perfect pet in another.

Are you seriously asking how many hours you can crate a dog without it being consudered an abuse? If you don´t have a reason, 0 hours. And the reasons for crating are medical, temporary circumstances (=travel/shows/etc). Never dog´s everyday life at home. IMO was actually saying that if crating a dog for hours as a regular basis is the only way you can cope with a "destructive" dog, whatever that means, the dog will never be a happy, well kept dog in your home. I find it a bit difficult to understand what is it that you have a problem with the law? Isn´t it a good thing that a dog should be able to walk for the most part of his day? (unless it is a medical reason etc.)


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

labradrk said:


> What is wrong with convenience if it keeps the dog safe and the owners house from being wrecked? it would be more of an inconvenience if a dog was potentially electrocuting itself or ingesting who knows what.
> 
> Who are these "so many dogs" that you know that spend too much time in a crate?


There is nothing wrong with convenience on the whole, the problem is when convenience means keeping dogs in cages.
Yes, that would be an inconvenience, however plugs and wires can be covered up so they cannot be reached.
Ingesting who knows what, well things should be kept out of the reach of a puppy that can or will eat them.

The so many dogs are everywhere, in real life and on here. For me if a dog is in the cage all day while people work and then at night, that's too much time. Even eight hours a night, seems too much for me, that's a third of their day in a cage and confined, it doesn't feel right to me and clearly these government's have an issue with it.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

labradrk said:


> it would be more of an inconvenience if a dog was potentially electrocuting itself


How does a dog manage to electrocute itself, if not as a result of the owners careless observations.

If you keep a dog in a room, then surely you prevent any potential electrocution by simply unplugging any and all electrical appliances in that room.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> There is nothing wrong with convenience on the whole, the problem is when convenience means keeping dogs in cages.
> Yes, that would be an inconvenience, however plugs and wires can be covered up so they cannot be reached.
> Ingesting who knows what, well things should be kept out of the reach of a puppy that can or will eat them.
> 
> The so many dogs are everywhere, in real life and on here. *For me if a dog is in the cage all day while people work and then at night, that's too much time.* Even eight hours a night, seems too much for me, that's a third of their day in a cage and confined, it doesn't feel right to me and clearly these government's have an issue with it.


I don't disagree with you by the way on this part, I would not do this either.

But the instigation that ANY crate time is equal to abuse according to Zaros, then I'm afraid I do take issue with that when there is plenty of real "abuse" going on in the world.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

labradrk said:


> I don't disagree with you by the way on this part, I would not do this either.
> 
> But the instigation that ANY crate time is equal to abuse according to Zaros, then I'm afraid I do take issue with that when there is plenty of real "abuse" going on in the world.


 Where, in any of my posts, did I say or claim that crating was a form of abuse?


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

Nettles said:


> Here though, midwives and health visitors recommend not sleeping with your baby due to them overheating and SIDS. The risk of SIDS is apparently higher in babies who sleep with their parents. No idea if that's fact based or not, that is just what new mums are advised.


We have the same recommendations here, and it's much like neutering with vets. Vets recommend neutering because most people aren't responsible enough with an intact dog, and many vets will tell you it's healthier for the dog. As we know, that's not quite true though is it. 
Co-sleeping with a parent who makes their bed safe, doesn't drink or take any medicines that cause drowsiness is perfectly safe and often better for children as very young babies do better with skin to skin contact to help regulate their own breathing. I had preemies who slept on my chest for the first few months after they came home from NICU, the heart monitor that they said we would need for at least a year was discarded after 3 months. The medication for arrhythmia no longer needed after the child was taken out of the incubator and put on my chest. Human babies were never meant to be in another room away from their mothers. If some mothers need that, that's fine, but separating mom and baby in infancy makes no sense from a biological POV.

Sorry about the de-rail but it's a good example of the "experts" not always telling the whole story.

All of my pediatricians and NICU nurses knew I would be co-sleeping, knew I had thoroughly researched it, and knew I would be responsible about it, and all were fine with it with a few even encouraging me telling me off to the side that they too had co-slept with their kids. Yes, you heard that right, those same experts telling other moms not to co-sleep, were the ones who had co-slept with their own babies.



MrsZee said:


> If a dog is the wrong type for you; too active, too big, and demanding "heavier management" ( whatever that means), and as a result the only way to cope with it is to crate it for hours as a regular basis, well, IMO the dog is better off in a shelter, as at least it can walk about.


A friend of mine has a side of the road special mutt and an APBT. The mutt is an asshat and prone to starting arguments. Being breed savvy about her APBT, she doesn't ever want her girl to get any practice fighting. When she is not home, both dogs are crated in separate rooms so they don't get a chance to get frustrated by each other. (Mainly the mutt, he's a "special" dog.)
She is a vet tech and avid dog person who does all sorts of fun activities with her dogs when she's not working. When she does work, her dogs sometimes take turns coming to work with her, and at work, they too get crated during the busiest hours. Added up their hours in a crate are not "temporary" but these dogs live a much fuller, more enriched life than most dogs in pet homes. They go hiking, nose work, dock dogs, swimming, boating, camping... They have amazing lives. I can't imagine they would be better off languishing in a shelter where yes, they can get up and move, but not do much of anything else.



MrsZee said:


> Crating a dog, because it may eat a wrong thing seems to a bit far fetched, as any dog can pick anything on a walk. Sadly, they often do. But what can you do? Not walk them? At least at home you can make sure all dangerous items are either put away or protected.


The difference is, if I'm walking the dog and he eats something, I'm there, I see it happen and if for whatever reason I don't prevent it, a few hours later when the dog starts acting off, I might remember "oh... he did snarf up that piece of trash" as opposed to the dog who eats chewing gum while I'm gone, leaves no trace, then starts going in to kidney failure and I have no clue what is going on.



Zaros said:


> Could you please tell me where I can buy a ready made crate to accommodate Oscar. Floor area required must be greater than 160cms x 210cms x standing height 90cms .:Hilarious


Yeah, giant breed owners may have a different take on the crate thing as for our dogs to have a "comfortable" crate, it might as well be a room. So yeah, we don't own a crate that the dane fits in. Well, I do own a greyhound crate that I use for Bates sometimes, and Breez sometimes squeezes herself in there just to see if I'll reward her for it, but I would never use that crate for her for real. 
The reality is, the percentage of dogs who fit this particular bill are small, and most owners have crates that are plenty big enough for their dogs to be in very comfortably.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

ouesi said:


> A friend of mine has a side of the road special mutt and an APBT. The mutt is an asshat and prone to starting arguments. Being breed savvy about her APBT, she doesn't ever want her girl to get any practice fighting. When she is not home, both dogs are crated in separate rooms so they don't get a chance to get frustrated by each other. (Mainly the mutt, he's a "special" dog.)
> She is a vet tech and avid dog person who does all sorts of fun activities with her dogs when she's not working. When she does work, her dogs sometimes take turns coming to work with her, and at work, they too get crated during the busiest hours. Added up their hours in a crate are not "temporary" but these dogs live a much fuller, more enriched life than most dogs in pet homes. They go hiking, nose work, dock dogs, swimming, boating, camping... They have amazing lives. I can't imagine they would be better off languishing in a shelter where yes, they can get up and move, but not do much of anything else.
> 
> The difference is, if I'm walking the dog and he eats something, I'm there, I see it happen and if for whatever reason I don't prevent it, a few hours later when the dog starts acting off, I might remember "oh... he did snarf up that piece of trash" as opposed to the dog who eats chewing gum while I'm gone, leaves no trace, then starts going in to kidney failure and I have no clue what is going on.
> ...


Why not just give the separate rooms instead of crates, if two dogs have problems with each other? I know lots of dogs being at work places and if they are not ok wandering free, they have their own protected area. It is so easy to put a fence around the area the dog can be. Again, why use a crate? Surely that would be a much better solution than a crate. The issue here is the time. "The busiest hours" can genuily be hours and it cannot be good for a dog to be kept that long in a crate. I know e.g. sarplanicacs, who are also kept in a shop, and as you can imagine, you just cannot have a LGD waindering freely amongs the customers. But never once the owner thought that she´ll use a crate. Instead they just created an area with a fence, which made it impossible for the dog to have access to the actual shop.

I am sure your friend´s dog has a good life. But I am sure he will have a better one, if he was not confined in a crate for all that time. Like I said, using a bit more effort, he could have an area to stay instead of a crate. And surely that is what we try to do.

And last about the eating bits and pieces, well, if your dog is off leash, you cannot control what he is eating. Also I don´t think most dog owners will be able to follow what the dog is picking up. Some items/ pieces of food are so small, that we don´t even notice them. And indoors you surely can control that well enough, so that you don´t need to crate your dog for that reason. I mean are you really suggesting that crating a dog is the answer for these problems? Restricting a healthy animal into a small area (and it is small, if it is less than 12 square meters at least) because it is convenient for you, not for medical reasons, not for temporary solutions, but permanently? I am afraid I do find that cruel and unnecessary. I´d never encourage that either, as that leads to very serious abuse so easily as well. So many are lazy, and everything convenient for them is really what they are after, not the well being of a dog.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Zaros said:


> If you keep a dog in a room, then surely you prevent any potential electrocution by simply unplugging any and all electrical appliances in that room.


Unless the dog will rip the plug sockets or light switches off the wall (happened to a friend of mine, luckily she was home at the time and went to see why her dog was being suspiciously quiet).

Crates, like anything else can be misused, but can also be very useful and it is always worth crate-training a dog even if you don't intend to use one routinely. At least then, if you have to use one in an emergency you have one less thing to worry about.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Why not just give the separate rooms instead of crates, if two dogs have problems with each other? I know lots of dogs being at work places and if they are not ok wandering free, they have their own protected area. It is so easy to put a fence around the area the dog can be. Again, why use a crate? Surely that would be a much better solution than a crate. The issue here is the time. "The busiest hours" can genuily be hours and it cannot be good for a dog to be kept that long in a crate. I know e.g. sarplanicacs, who are also kept in a shop, and as you can imagine, you just cannot have a LGD waindering freely amongs the customers. But never once the owner thought that she´ll use a crate. Instead they just created an area with a fence, which made it impossible for the dog to have access to the actual shop.
> 
> I am sure your friend´s dog has a good life. But I am sure he will have a better one, if he was not confined in a crate for all that time. Like I said, using a bit more effort, he could have an area to stay instead of a crate. And surely that is what we try to do.
> 
> And last about the eating bits and pieces, well, if your dog is off leash, you cannot control what he is eating. Also I don´t think most dog owners will be able to follow what the dog is picking up. Some items/ pieces of food are so small, that we don´t even notice them. And indoors you surely can control that well enough, so that you don´t need to crate your dog for that reason. I mean are you really suggesting that crating a dog is the answer for these problems? Restricting a healthy animal into a small area (and it is small, if it is less than 12 square meters at least) because it is convenient for you, not for medical reasons, not for temporary solutions, but permanently? I am afraid I do find that cruel and unnecessary. I´d never encourage that either, as that leads to very serious abuse so easily as well. So many are lazy, and everything convenient for them is really what they are after, not the well being of a dog.


With respect Mrs. Zee, from your posts it sounds like you don't fully understand what some dogs can be like, nor what is good for that individual dog. 
No, the dogs I'm talking about cannot just be in a room. They have to be crated and the rooms are separate so they don't annoy each other. 
At work - the vet's office, there is no "room" the dog can be put in. In a crate he still gets to see, smell, hear what is going on, he's just safely confined. In a room he would not have those interactions. He is perfectly happing getting popped in to a crate and then once things slow down again he gets to come out.

Of course we can ALL give our dogs a better life. We can all do better, and there is always room for improvement. I'm not a perfect owner, nor is anyone for that matter. We are all simply doing the best we can. 
But to suggest dogs like my friend's who are crated would be better off in a shelter than with a loving owner who does as much as she does with them is just ludicrous, sorry.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When Rosie, my Jack Russell, was a growing pup, on the odd occasion I attempted to leave her, she reacted by hurling herself repeatedly at the glass in my back door. If I tried to leave her in the lounge, she would climb on the back of the armchair and throw herself at the window.

I became very afraid she was either going to come through the glass or break her neck, so I bought a crate.

On the odd occasion she had to be left alone, for a short period of time, she then went in the crate. I always made sure she was very well exercised and fed before I left her. By the time she was eighteen months old, she was okay to be left loose in my house, so the crate went away.

Now I have Rudi, my Son's Staffy pup through the week. She can be very destructive ......... not in a neurotic, "I'm an understimulated pup" way, but rather, "Oh, this looks good, I'll chew it".

Again, it's rare I have to leave them, I'm normally here all the time and when going to the Garden Centre, shops, etc., I take them with me, but, when I can't, Rudi goes in her very roomy crate.

I have stopped Rudi from gnawing on my kitchen units and attempting to chew through the leg of my dining suite, to mention just a couple of things which can't be moved out of her way.

I'm sure that when she's a year or eighteen months old, she too will be fine to be left loose but, until then, particularly for her own safety, she will go in her crate, from where she can see outside and right up the garden.

When I get home, her bedding is never disturbed and she is never panting or out of breath, which tells me she sleeps whilst I'm gone.

Now, when I'm going out for a short while and I say "Are you going in your crate Rudi"?, she runs in and sits down. She knows she'll have a treat and that I will soon be back.

I do what I need to keep my dogs safe and, if that involves using a crate for short periods now and then, that's what I'll continue to do.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

MrsZee said:


> The law was made for the benefit of the dog, not of the owner. Naturally a law alone doesn´t stop abuse, but it does send a message of what is right and wrong. And I believe it is right that dogs need to be able to move about, and in a crate they cannot do that. The experts behind this law were vets, and I think they know what they are talking about. I hope this thread actually made some think twice about using a crate and closing the door. Naturally it is good to get a dog used to being in one as well, as there might be times a dog needs to be crated, like recovering from an illness, travelling etc. But those times are always exceptions.
> 
> I had two pups in a flat and it didn´t occur to be that they shouldn´t be able to walk freely. When they had their worst biting phase, we had a branch on the balcony. It was messy of course, but they loved it and as a result left most other things alone. Funny, how in the old days people coped with pups and dogs without crates.


Really? So you have seen all the crates that are used by all dogs and been provided with the incontravertible evidence that dogs cannot move about in crates?

That may be true of some dogs in some crates but not all dogs in all crates.

Aye yes, in the old days we never bothered with vaccinations a bit of smallpox, polio, diptheria never did us any harm.

And as for sterilisation and pasteurisation, ee by gum, we managed.

Antibiotics? pfft we used to laugh in the face of disease.

Funny how in the old days people managed without any of the above.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

MrsZee said:


> Like the law stipulates, for recovery you can use crates. The abuse is about crating a dog for a long time regularly without a good reason (like medical). It is aimed at the well being of a dog,
> 
> Many suggested already that instead of a crate you can use one room to keep yur dog safe, if that is the only way. Also I assume that no association would promote using a crate for hours regularly as that is abuse. Police dogs here are pretty well cared for, they live in families, not in kennels, they are trained with positive methods (I actually met a police dog trainer and I was impressed by their training methods) and the hours they work and are kept in cars are heavily regulated. This is not only a matter of animal welfare, it is a question of money and ability to a dog for policing. A well kept animal can be used for work longer, so it saves a lot of money. Also a healthy dog is reliable, whereas an unhealthy one isn´t. It is very simple really. I´d like to believe it is the same in Britain, as Britain has had a reputation of dog lovers.


But police dogs in the UK (and other countries) spend a great deal of time in their crates in their cars so that they can be deployed quickly. They are not lounging around in their family home or kennel waiting for the telephone to ring.

But guess what, they are also trained with positive methods.

I actually TRAIN with police dog trainers (some are civilian and some are in the police) regularly and we all use positive methods (if by that term what you actually mean is positive reinforcement and not positive punishment of course) 

But congratulations on actually MEETING one! Well done you!

I am loving the patronising tone of your post as though many of us on here have not got a clue about animal welfare, or the money and ability available for a dog in the police (or the military in fact).

We, here in Great Britain, do actually understand that a healthy dog is reliable etc.

I know this must come as a shock to you but you know we have some of the best dogs and trainers in the world in the UK despite the fact that crates are not banned.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Katalyst said:


> I don't disagree with your opinion as I think it is reasonable for the most part and you aren't being judgemental
> However I know a number of crate trained dogs, my own included and none have the sillies when they come out of their crate.


Mine has the sillies when he's been left regardless of whether or not he's been in his crate. If he's been put in there (or shut in another room) because of someone coming over to do work on the property he doesn't. Can't say it really bothers me and it's never resulted in destruction, more grabbing a toy and being a bit exuberant. Which I suppose can destroy anything at tail height but that happens anyway lol.

My destructive dog destroyed things that he couldn't be shut away from. Such as walls and flooring. Blocking stuff in with boxes would have simply resulted in destroyed boxes AND destroyed furniture, walls, floors etc anyway.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Reading a lot of the replies it appears the main problem is, as Mrs Zee says, getting an unsuitable dog for your environment and life style. Just because you can get hold of a crate for initial puppyhood does not mean you should rely on it. If your dog is so damn destructive it cannot be left on its own in the house it must be incredibly miserable so why on earth would you then shove it in a crate so that it cannot even express its misery. Before crates people used to either find a way to manage the dog so it was happy or find another home for it where it could be managed in such a way that it had no need to want to be destructive. Surely dogs deserve to be happy. I just cannot imagine owning a dog that does not very quickly fit into my life which includes staying home when necessary. And of course I have had dogs that chew or are destructive at some time. I had a collie that went through a phase of ripping the car up in the first few minutes she was left. We got over it and it stopped happening. Crates did not really exist back then or I am sure I would have been tempted to put her in one to solve the problem and had a frustrated dog.
> And yes, I have used crates with my young puppies.


I am sorry I am not seeing the link between destruction and misery?

Where is it written that all dogs which are very destructive are ipso facto very miserable?

It is a bit like saying that all dogs which bark when left suffer from Separation Anxiety.

No they do not.

They bark for a variety of reasons.

Just because YOU cannot imagine owning a dog that does not very quickly fit into your life which includes staying home when necessary does not mean that some people cope with dogs with issues that you have not come across or are equipped to deal with.

And you are also conflating using a crate with frustration.

Er no, my dogs are not frustrated when in their crates and this is true for many other dogs which belong to others.

I had a dog that bit through the electric cord of a storage heater whilst it was on and fortunately survived. She was not unhappy, frustrated, or in any other way disadvantaged, she did it because she could.

Which is the reason for a lot of behaviours.

They are , after all, only dogs.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

MrsZee said:


> I don´t think anyone has a safe room ready made, you create one, if you really need it. Destructive dogs needs to be defined a bit more, I am afraid. They could be dogs with not enough walks/stimulation/Company/ training/health issues or just too active for the life style you can provide. An active collie can be destructive in one family but a perfect pet in another.
> 
> Are you seriously asking how many hours you can crate a dog without it being consudered an abuse? If you don´t have a reason, 0 hours. And the reasons for crating are medical, temporary circumstances (=travel/shows/etc). Never dog´s everyday life at home. IMO was actually saying that if crating a dog for hours as a regular basis is the only way you can cope with a "destructive" dog, whatever that means, the dog will never be a happy, well kept dog in your home. I find it a bit difficult to understand what is it that you have a problem with the law? Isn´t it a good thing that a dog should be able to walk for the most part of his day? (unless it is a medical reason etc.)


Yep, I will make a safe room.

I have two rooms downstairs a living room and a kitchen.

Now which one am I going to make safe?

As for my dogs walking for the most part of their day?

Really?

So a) what constitutes "a day"?

8 hours, 12 hours, daylight?

Are we saying dogs should be on the move at all times during this period?

A destructive dog means one that destroys things, whatever they are, which could lead to its own destruction of that of its owners eg causing a fire?

Really, if you do not believe in crates nobody is forcing you to use one.

But please do not then imply that all of us who do use them a) abuse them b) are not responsible owners who put their animals welfare first c) or that destructive dogs are miserable and would be better off in another home.

You have no idea about how we live, care for, exercise, train, feed or otherwise our dogs.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Not everyone has the luxury of living in a sprawling mansion, where they can allocate a room to their dog, free of furniture, wires, carpet, etc., let alone two dedicated 'dog rooms' for those who own dogs who may just fight when left alone.

Some people live in one bedroomed apartments, give their dog a wonderful life, but need to use a crate from time to time.

Sometimes dogs, particularly pups, can be a danger to themselves and their behaviours sometimes need to be controlled or managed.

I'm aware that some live in a carefree, "Oh, it'll be okay" world, but I'm not one of them.

I do my best to make sure it's okay.


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## ReggieCrayJug (Dec 12, 2015)

My dog goes in his crate at night, when I pop to town ect. He is rarely in it other than them times as I work shifts and my mum works night so she's home in the day while I'm working. Yes he's locked in at night and no I don't think that's cruel, he likes his crate he feels safe in there. It's his own space!


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sweety said:


> Not everyone has the luxury of living in a sprawling mansion, where they can allocate a room to their dog, free of furniture, wires, carpet, etc., let alone two dedicated 'dog rooms' for those who own dogs who may just fight when left alone.
> 
> Some people live in one bedroomed apartments, give their dog a wonderful life, but need to use a crate from time to time.
> 
> ...


Yep. Like smokeybear I have two rooms downstairs, neither of which I would leave the puppy loose in without supervision for anything other than short periods. So called dog proofing a room is NOT an option for a lot of people in the real world.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

It's certainly not convenient to have a bloody big dog crate sitting at the end of my bed. I have a lovely matchy smatchy dog bed for Phoebe that would look lovely in our bedroom but we can't use it because the big ugly crate is the only place she's safe for the 4-5 hours a night that I'm asleep.

I'm also curious how you safety proof a room with a dog that eats walls. If I remove the walls, it's essentially outdoors. As she has SA I'd have to sleep outside with her. No duvet over me though as she eats those 

If I was to come on here and say I have a dog that causes so much destruction during the night that she's injuring herself and ingesting carpet, plaster, skirting boards etc so I'm just going to shove her off to a rescue to deal with rather than crate train her, I would be hung, drawn and quartered by the majority. Seems you just can't win.


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## tattoogirl73 (Jun 25, 2011)

my two poodles are both crate trained and i believe this has helped in their being completely clean in the house by the time they were both five months old. opie wasn't crate trained and wasn't clean until he was two. only cherokee gets locked in her crate, at bedtime or if i have to go out. partly because she is a little sod and likes to chew owt she can get her paws on but also because of opie. he's very protective of tricky and i have no doubt in mind that if owt was to kick off between the girls that he would go for cherokee to save tricky. i tell a lie actually. tricky is fastened in the crate at dogschool while i train cherokee. she is far more relaxed in the crate then if she was tied up to one side. both girls love their crates and are often to be found asleep in 'em. in future all my dogs will be crate trained.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Experts about co sleeping with babies now seem to recommend It again...
Seems fewer cot deaths.

It is good that there might be a law that does not allow to keep Dogs in cages interminably for no reason..aka byb Or puppy farming!
Same for being tied. 
That allows to protect those dogs.

Yes. Enforceable law. 

All my dogs seemed to shift about during the night. A drink. A blanket. Cooler spot. Hotter spot...

For me if your dog spends 8 to 10 hours in a cage while you are at work...then about the same while you are sleeping that is.an abuse.

Would you like to spend 18 hours a day in.a cage?
Would you keep your child there?
If I had a dog and it needs much more active life than my full time work allows and gets destructive put of boredom and pent up energy it would be a mistake to.keep it.
Some breeds are not suitable for those who.have no space and very limited time.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Experts about co sleeping with babies now seem to recommend It again...
> Seems fewer cot deaths.
> 
> It is good that there might be a law that does not allow to keep Dogs in cages interminably for no reason..aka byb Or puppy farming!
> ...


I highly doubt you will find anyone on here that keeps their dog in a crate for 18 hours a day.

Destruction and boredom do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Space is not necessarily a limiting factor in someone's ability to manage dogs successfully.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

I don't see the problem with responsible crating. I don't crate Daisy, but when we go out, she is left in a room which is, to all intents and purposes, a large crate. Plus she barely leaves her bed during that time anyway (we've recorded her). The kind of people who will stick a dog in a crate for 18 hours a day or whatever are probably the kind of people who won't care there is a law against it, or will get upset when their uncrated dog destroys something and end up handing them into the nearest rescue. You can't really legislate against that kind of disregard for a dog's wellbeing.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

labradrk said:


> I highly doubt you will find anyone on here that keeps their dog in a crate for 18 hours a day.
> 
> Destruction and boredom do not necessarily go hand in hand.
> 
> Space is not necessarily a limiting factor in someone's ability to manage dogs successfully.


But I do not say anyone here does that but it happens and this law allows to help.animals whose owners overuse crating or tying them.
Allows to take away dogs kept in small cages by byb breeders.
Sometimes the only thing you may charge them with!

Dogs cannot be kept in.a cage and just taken for walks twice a day and it happens!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Well sod it.. I provide the best food I can for my dogs, best health care, training, enrichment, I only take holidays with them, my life is planned round them, they are walked at least twice a day, best insurance I can afford, car purchased for the dogs nothing is done without the dogs in mind... They are not destructive, but they are crated. While we are a work, sometimes over night, at shows, when we travel, and when we take them on holiday. Best I contact a rescue tomorrow or ask their breeders to take them back because of the abuse I am inflicting on them.... Oh wait maybe if I just give them free run of the house, but feed them crap, never walk them, stop paying insurance, leave them in kennels ( just larger crates really) when we go away, neglect their medical care, and not bother training them can I be considered a caring owner?? Oh wait if I leave them in an out door kennel 24/7 and throw them food twice a day if I remember and maybe clean them out once and a while is that okay? I mean they aren't in a crate .


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## Jp kp (Mar 14, 2013)

Crates are good.......


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Meezey said:


> Well sod it.. I provide the best food I can for my dogs, best health care, training, enrichment, I only take holidays with them, my life is planned round them, they are walked at least twice a day, best insurance I can afford, car purchased for the dogs nothing is done without the dogs in mind... They are not destructive, but they are crated. While we are a work, sometimes over night, at shows, when we travel, and when we take them on holiday. Best I contact a rescue tomorrow or ask their breeders to take them back because of the abuse I am inflicting on them.... Oh wait maybe if I just give them free run of the house, but feed them crap, never walk them, stop paying insurance, leave them in kennels ( just larger crates really) when we go away, neglect their medical care, and not bother training them can I be considered a caring owner??


Do you assume that those who do not use crates do all those things?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Do you assume that those who do not use crates do all those things?


You seem to assume as does MsZee that those who do use crates are abusing their dogs... It's called sarcasm....


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Seems like some people on this thread dont allow for problem dogs like those who can demolish your house in a few hours or those will try and tear each other limb from limb if left to their own devices. Or maybe just sick or elderly dogs who need some peace and quiet from rowdy housemates?? Maybe we should all just give up and rehome or shut our problem 'kids' away in a nice safe empty room when needed.
Its all very well saying that people shouldnt get dogs if they plan on crating them long term but the thing is most of us really dont plan that! Problems or behaviours that arent safe arise after we have fallen in love with our pooches at which point we try and do what we can to give them a safe and happy life....sometimes that includes a crate.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Those who use crates for most of the day and.night abuse dogs.
Please stay in a crate for about ten hours during the day..have a walk etc..food drink and insurance..

Come back to your comfy crate for next eight to ten.hours.
Then.walk. Eat. Drink
Back to the crate.
For such Iis life of many dogs.
And we humans are much lazier than dogs.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Those who use crates for most of the day and.night abuse dogs.
> Please stay in a crate for about ten hours during the day..have a walk etc..food drink and insurance..
> 
> Come back to your comfy crate for next eight to ten.hours.
> ...


So you think bring left in a room all day and night alone and out for walk and food and back to their comfortable room is better?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Those who use crates for most of the day and.night abuse dogs.
> Please stay in a crate for about ten hours during the day..have a walk etc..food drink and insurance..
> 
> Come back to your comfy crate for next eight to ten.hours.
> ...


Yep.....and people who do that shouldn't have dogs. But it is not the crate that is doing that but the OWNER. The crate is an inanimate object - it is the owner that is doing the abusing. Someone likely to leave a dog in a crate all the time would only find some other method of confinement if the crate was not available.

You are right, such is the life for many dogs. However there are also dogs denied medical treatment, dogs that are bred back to back, dogs that are physically abused, dogs that are starved, dogs that are morbidly obese, dogs that are shot etc. All forms of abuse, the one common denominator being PEOPLE.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

All 3 of mine sleep in one crate in the kitchen, and always have done, they are locked in at night or when I'm out for a couple of hours, but during the day (I work from home) they have the option of sleeping in there, in the front room on their other Tuffies bed, on the big rug in front of the fire or on the settee. They often choose the crate and if they are given a treat they sometimes take it in there to eat. My crate is pretty big, It's got the second size Tuffies bed at one end covered in fleece and I could easily fit the same size Tuffies next to it in the remaining space but there is a water bowl in there and if it's warm I put one of those big cooling pads on the bottom when I'm home so they have the option of sleeping on the bed or the pad. I have 3 little Cavs and when they are sprawled out on their bed you could still easily fit another Cav on it so I think my crate is plenty big enough. I don't see what the problem is if they are used properly tbh, my lot often choose to be in there and if they ever need to stay at the vets (touch wood they don't) it'd be one less thing for me to worry about knowing they won't be stressed in a cage. They also go to the kennels twice a year and they are always fine when they are there too.


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

catz4m8z said:


> or those will try and tear each other limb from limb if left to their own devices.


Unfortunately this is the reality for some dog owners who live a life of crate and rotate with dogs who for whatever reason are not to be trusted together.
Better to crate than come home to dead dogs. Which BTW does happen.
I came home once in college to my childhood terrier which half his face missing because in his senility he had walked in to the malamute and snapped at him. The malamute was not one to put up with that sort of thing, grabbed his head, the terrier pulled back, and he had most of the skin of his skull detached from the bone. That was a mess.... If I had known then what I know now, that never would have happened because the terrier or malamute (or both) would have been in a crate.

Even with dogs who do get along swimmingly sometimes a crate is needed. When one of our dogs was aging and slowing down I started crating him again when we were gone - why? We had 2 large, rambunctious youngsters in the house, and I wanted him to be safe from them. The last thing he needed was to be run over by them being silly. 
We started putting him in a separate room but he didn't like the isolation, his sight and hearing were gone and he needed the presence of the other dogs. A crate allowed him to be in the same room as the rest of his dog "family" where he could smell them but not be endangered by them trampling him. 
It was not a "temporary" thing either, this was our solution for this elderly dog for the rest of his life - a good 3 years.

That wasn't a question of getting the wrong dog for our situation, or that dog being better off in another home. He was the dog who Bates would go and get for me when he couldn't hear me calling. He was in exactly the right home for him. He just needed the safety of the crate in small areas because a dane and a giant muttdog are doofuses could hurt him just being silly in the confined space of the house.

Just to add another cog in the machinery of this thread 
This conversation reminds me of the decision to let your dog off leash. Is it also animal abuse to have a dog who never goes off leash? Should a dog who has shown himself to be a danger to himself and others be allowed off leash because it's cruel to never allow a dog to run? It's the same type of reflection on safety vs. freedom for the dog...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ing i


catz4m8z said:


> Seems like some people on this thread dont allow for problem dogs like those who can demolish your house in a few hours or those will try and tear each other limb from limb if left to their own devices. Or maybe just sick or elderly dogs who need some peace and quiet from rowdy housemates?? Maybe we should all just give up and rehome or shut our problem 'kids' away in a nice safe empty room when needed.
> Its all very well saying that people shouldnt get dogs if they plan on crating them long term but the thing is most of us really dont plan that! Problems or behaviours that arent safe arise after we have fallen in love with our pooches at which point we try and do what we can to give them a safe and happy life....sometimes that includes a crate.


Maybe then if the dogs would do that to each other our love for them shouldn't be the number one factor and if we loved them we would want them to lead a happy life.
Dogs who are so, so bad together should most likely be rehomed. I'm sorry it may sound harsh, but they are obviously living in constant stress to be that way to each other and have to be crated for long hours and kept away from each other.
Sometimes we have to put their wellbeing first and maybe it may be hard to face up to, but they are not living in the best environment for them if they really would tear each other limb for limb.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

emmaviolet said:


> ing i
> 
> Maybe then if the dogs would do that to each other our love for them shouldn't be the number one factor and if we loved them we would want them to lead a happy life.
> Dogs who are so, so bad together should most likely be rehomed. I'm sorry it may sound harsh, but they are obviously living in constant stress to be that way to each other and have to be crated for long hours and kept away from each other.
> Sometimes we have to put their wellbeing first and maybe it may be hard to face up to, but they are not living in the best environment for them if they really would tear each other limb for limb.


What a great idea, the only thing that is needed is to take a short trip to the local shelter which is currently under supplied with dogs who will take in our dogs free, gratis and for nothing and then find a suitable home for them within days................... because gadzillions of people are just waiting for the right geriatric, handicapped, and tetchy dogs to come along and care for them alongside their children and spend a great deal of money on them.

Dogs which cannot be safely left alone together do not lead endless stressful lives necessarily, when the owner is home or with them in any other context peace may reign.

Personally I think it is shocking that anyone keeps a dog at all.

After all we are interfering with their freedoms, I mean, putting a collar on them, attaching a lead, only permitting appropriate behaviours in appropriate places (decided by us terrible owners) must be incredibly stressful.

Not to mention feeding them the best foods when they can go and catch or scavenge for it themselves (as in the wild), allowing them the adrenaline rush of dodging traffic, not being wormed, vaccinated or deflead when if they were not held captive in pesky interfering owners houses/crates/kennels/cars etc they could have a whale of a time.

And to carry out needlessly invasive surgery on them eg neutering (also banned in some countries) is digusting and demonstrates what terrible people we are.

We should immediately abolish all companion animals with immediate effect and allow nature to take its course.

Yeah, you can see the effects of this in many third world countries.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I'm a "crater" with one of my dogs, Blade goes in a crate the others are loose. 
We crate trained as a way to toilet train because at 6 months old he was still using the entirety of my downstairs as his own personal toilet on a night time.
It took us about another 5/6 months to 100% crate train him.

I tried to take the crate away when we got Skyla and after 3 nights of him howling the house down I gave in and gave him it back. 
The door is never bolted so if he wanted to come out he does. I however record them when I go out anywhere and he never comes out

Taz has never been crated in his life yet I sometimes find him in Blade's having a cuddle ( as you can see door not shut )


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> ing i
> 
> Maybe then if the dogs would do that to each other our love for them shouldn't be the number one factor and if we loved them we would want them to lead a happy life.
> Dogs who are so, so bad together should most likely be rehomed. I'm sorry it may sound harsh, but they are obviously living in constant stress to be that way to each other and have to be crated for long hours and kept away from each other.
> Sometimes we have to put their wellbeing first and maybe it may be hard to face up to, but they are not living in the best environment for them if they really would tear each other limb for limb.


Have you ever tried to find a home for a dog who is aggressive to other dogs?
The people with the experience to properly deal with a dog who has serious issues like that, guess what? They already have dogs. So wherever the dog ends up, he's going to be crated and rotated again. If you can find a home at all, which isn't likely.

I agree with you that crate and rotate sucks. It sucks for the dog, it sucks for the owners, I personally couldn't do it. I'd probably end up euthanizing the dog. But hey, at least I'm not crating him right?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Well, now is as good a time as any seen as we're on the subject, but I'm selling Cash's crate if anyone is interested? Cost £65 new, but am selling for £45. Barely been used so as good as new


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Have you ever tried to find a home for a dog who is aggressive to other dogs?
> The people with the experience to properly deal with a dog who has serious issues like that, guess what? They already have dogs. So wherever the dog ends up, he's going to be crated and rotated again. If you can find a home at all, which isn't likely.
> 
> I agree with you that crate and rotate sucks. It sucks for the dog, it sucks for the owners, I personally couldn't do it. I'd probably end up euthanizing the dog. But hey, at least I'm not crating him right?


I do understand with those issues.

However obviously sometimes it is just the chemistry is not right with the dogs in your household and they may not be actually aggressive to all other dogs, but maybe just living with that dog they do not get on with, or a multi dog household is not for them.
I have a neighbour who has to keep her two girls separate, they only ever fight each other, they are fine with dogs out on their walk, just not in their home.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

It is extremely hard to find " only dog" homes. As someone who works in rescue a lot of peoples requirement for a dog is that it can live with other dogs. Those that can't live with other dogs spend months and months if not years waiting for their forever home to show up.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> I do understand with those issues.
> 
> However obviously sometimes it is just the chemistry is not right with the dogs in your household and they may not be actually aggressive to all other dogs, but maybe just living with that dog they do not get on with, or a multi dog household is not for them.
> I have a neighbour who has to keep her two girls separate, they only ever fight each other, they are fine with dogs out on their walk, just not in their home.


There are 1000's of dogs in rescue with no issues at all who have never shown aggression to any dog! Most rescues are wary of taking dogs with any dog aggression as it can be hard to rehome them meaning dogs are stuck in Kennels ( large crates) for up to 23 hours a day waiting for a dog free home. But hey guess they aren't in a crate so that's okay?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> There are 1000's of dogs in rescue with no issues at all who have never shown aggression to any dog! Most rescues are wary of taking dogs with any dog aggression as it can be hard to rehome them meaning dogs are stuck in Kennels ( large crates) for up to 23 hours a day waiting for a dog free home. But hey guess they aren't in a crate so that's okay?


No, maybe not in a rescue, but private rehomes can and do happen successfully.
I don't think it is ok for dogs to be stuck in a kennel in rescue for so long, but that doesn't mean I think it ok for a dog to be in a crate for those hours either, if dogs are crated during working hours and night time hours, then that's a lot of time to be caged up.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> No, maybe not in a rescue, but private rehomes can and do happen successfully.
> I don't think it is ok for dogs to be stuck in a kennel in rescue for so long, but that doesn't mean I think it ok for a dog to be in a crate for those hours either, if dogs are crated during working hours and night time hours, then that's a lot of time to be caged up.


Rarely do people take dogs who are DA via private rehoming, unless of course they aren't told about it.... I doubt being told a dog had tried to kill another would instill confidence in those wanting to rehome? What if the dog then went on to kill or seriously injure the resident dog in the new home?

Long time to be crated but okay to be shut in a room alone?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Must admit that I agree dogs should not be left alone all day long and walk and all.night long on their own even in kennel or pet room. 
At least they should have been with other dogs? Say it happens to packs of hunting or racing dogs...
If your dog is to be alone 22 or 23 out of 24 hours time to think about dog day care or dog sharing.

Open crate that dog can walk.in and out is fine and if occasionally you need to shut him in for a little while then ok.

Had unsuitable dog for my flat and work once. Had to dog proof my kitchen and hall. Bedrooms had to be closed when the hound was a puppy and lots of chewing material delivered.
Taught me the lesson forever to have smaller and less energetic breeds next. 
Yes. Loved my setterxpointer too much to give him up.
Bottle fed him since he was two days old and mum not coping.

But I see difference between staying alone in big kennel or any room pet proof with space to walk, food, drink, toys, window...

Now in cat chat cages ate discussed.
Not many cat people favour cages and cats can be quite destructive and have problematic behaviour too.

Here the free range Scrip and Garfy.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Must admit that I agree dogs should not be left alone all day long and walk and all.night long on their own even in kennel or pet room.
> At least they should have been with other dogs? Say it happens to packs of hunting or racing dogs...
> If your dog is to be alone 22 or 23 out of 24 hours time to think about dog day care or dog sharing.
> 
> ...


I find it very strange that people thinking a dog outside kennelled for 18 or 20 plus hours in all weathers is fine, but not a dog crated??

Why would crates not have water? Or toys? Or food for that matter? Or window access?

This again strikes me as people not knowing anything about dogs and crates making judgements?


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## Mrsred (Oct 23, 2013)

Glory be, perhaps I should inform the two separate rescues that I got my boys from, who were more than happy with our set up, that we are feckless, lazy eejits who can't be bothered to train or exercise our dogs. 
Maybe the lady, who was my labs assessor for her KC silver who we regularly meet on walks, who has competed at Crufts with her collies thinks we are spending the day, with our dogs in crates whilst we laugh our heads off at their imprisonment. 

It is extremely rare that I become riled by PF, but to suggest that my dogs, my dogs who are deeply loved members of the family and enjoy everything the rest of the family enjoys (also and including walks and training sessions in the foulest of weather, regardless if we humans want or are able for) are somehow abused is extremely insulting. 

Perhaps I should remove every trace of my children's pruck from around the house? After all, who else's child would have the temerity to leave an empty crisp packet in their blazer pocket hanging off the bannister? Hell, I suppose I shouldn't give them the odd packet of crisps either I suppose.

I better take the Christmas decorations down, whilst we are at it. Why should us humans enjoy the only big room in the house when I can make it three dog proof? Hell, there are millions of homes practically salvating for my springer x collie boy, who is issue central and pathologically strange around all sorts of things for no apparent reason and is smarter than the average 4 year old child. 

Those fiendish crates, that are warm, clean and filled with stuffed kongs and bull bars are the work of Satan. It is truly horrific to come in from my very rare time out sans dogs to see my dogs slumbering peacefully, not trying to escape, self harming or indeed doing anything but have a nice wee nap. 

Now, I better go and cancel anything remotely envolving our dogs that have to do with our family summer holidays, after all, they would be better off with strangers somewhere than spending a few hours out of 24 with strangers than running along in the wilds of Ireland in their own beds whilst we humans book a hotel somewhere hot.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> If a dog is the wrong type for you; too active, too big, and demanding "heavier management" ( whatever that means), and as a result the only way to cope with it is to crate it for hours as a regular basis, well, IMO the dog is better off in a shelter, as at least it can walk about.


My dog is crated every night as I cannot trust her with my cat, who also sleeps inside. Due to the layout of my house the only other option would be shutting her in my bathroom at night - only slightly larger than her huge crate and much less comfortable. In addition she sleeps much more soundly when crated - if she's not crated at night she's up and down all night with noises outside etc.

You're saying I should be dropping her off at the SPCA?

For the record the story of her and my cat is a long one, the training is ongoing and we have made HUGE progress to this point.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

emmaviolet said:


> ing i
> Dogs who are so, so bad together should most likely be rehomed. I'm sorry it may sound harsh, but they are obviously living in constant stress to be that way to each other and have to be crated for long hours and kept away from each other.
> .


I agree. dogs living in constant stress probably should be rehomed. I suppose Im just really lucky that Im a crate fan then! My boys are horribly stressed if they are loose together in a room, even both on leads but if one of them is crated it creates a sense of security for them so they can be in the same room without any stress at all. They love their crates and tend to eat in there and often are found snoozing inside when they are supposed to be out. The only time they get stressed is when they want to be chasing the cat (but since they arent supposed to chase the cat the crate is probably a good thing!).
Crate and rotate takes alot of effort and time and def isnt an easy option. If I wasnt commited to my dogs and more importantly if they werent completely happy I would find another option like rehoming. I really dont think that a blanket ban on a useful item like a crate is helpful.


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## melannie (Sep 4, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> I just read this article whihc stated very clearly that crating is legal only for travel and temporary occasions (dog shows, recovering etc) but that's it. For any other purpose it is considered animal abuse and considered criminal.
> As this topic has been discussed at lenght before, I am not going to start another long thread about crating, I just wanted to share this information, as I read about it today.


Load of garbage although they can all say what they want, the cage, lets face it, its normally a cage and people call them a crate, so crate or cage same thing, personally I wish I would have discovered or known about dog crates/cages decades and decades ago because they are sometimes an absolute must have and if you can get the dog to wander in and out of its own free will then thats even better, if not then I use them for the dogs sleeping time as I dont trust him yet to have free run of the house and it will be a long time before I do as far as I can see, plus the cages also help me a lot when I need to go out, or have some time out to get myself a bath and other things, I wouldnt be without one ever again and would advise everyone to at least give them a try if they have a dog from it being a very young puppy and that way it grows to know that is his place and thats it.

Also, what about a human baby child in a cot, that's a cage in theory too, same thing, think about it, so in that case we all must be total nutter's and all of our mothers and fathers and their mothers and father s and so on and on for ever and ever......its a load of rubbish.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

McKenzie said:


> For the record the story of her and my cat is a long one, the training is ongoing and we have made HUGE progress to this point.


This is another very valid point IMO. It seems that no matter what behavioural issue your dog has, there are some people here who wrongly assume that we're just accepting the unwanted behaviour by using a crate. It seems to be forgotten that a lot of us are actually working on those unwanted behaviours and using a crate until those issues are resolved.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> Here the free range Scrip and Garfy.
> View attachment 254586


Hey Scrippy! Wouldn't Scrip like a bone or does he just prefer the flavour of his toes.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Well that is my lot gone. It's been nice knowing them but I have to do what is right. At least I can put my ironing board back were the crate was, that thing was massive!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

labradrk said:


> Well that is my lot gone. It's been nice knowing them but I have to do what is right. At least I can put my ironing board back were the crate was, that thing was massive!


Quick with your smart remarks but not so with your apologies I see.

Now about that accusation I asked you to substantiate?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Quick with your smart remarks but not so with your apologies I see.
> 
> Now about that accusation I asked you to substantiate?


I was mistaken, it was MrsZee who persistently mentioned abuse and that anyone who used a crate should relinquish their dogs to a shelter. Why, do you not agree with her about crates being abusive? do you also believe that dogs are better off in shelters than being being crated for any length of time? does MrsZee even feel comfortable talking to an entire group full of animal abusers?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> With respect Mrs. Zee, from your posts it sounds like you don't fully understand what some dogs can be like, nor what is good for that individual dog. But to suggest dogs like my friend's who are crated would be better off in a shelter than with a loving owner who does as much as she does with them is just ludicrous, sorry.


With respect, Ouesi, I do know that a it is better for a dog to be able to move about than not. If a dog spends most of his time in a crate, it is better off in a kennel. T believe you agree with this too. But we are not talking about the extreme situations, are we, but about crating for a few hour regularly, as in your friend´s case, and finding a solution to it. Dogs I see at vets, petshops, hairdresses etc. typically have a space behind the desk, which simply has a gate at both ends.



smokeybear said:


> But police dogs in the UK (and other countries) spend a great deal of time in their crates in their cars so that they can be deployed quickly. They are not lounging around in their family home or kennel waiting for the telephone to ring.
> that crates are not banned.


Dogs actually stay with their owners at work too, so when needed the dog simply follows the policeman to the car. So far the dog is always faster than the policeman. Why the dog would need to wait in a crate all day beats me. Crates are not banned here, what made you think that? Just abusive use of crates is criminal. That means keeping a dog in a crate for hours without a good reason. (like medical, travel). Even the Kennel Club is very strongly against that, not to mention those vets dealing with animal abuse on a daily basis.



smokeybear said:


> Yep, I will make a safe room.I have two rooms downstairs a living room and a kitchen.
> Now which one am I going to make safe? As for my dogs walking for the most part of their day?
> So a) what constitutes "a day"? 8 hours, 12 hours, daylight? Are we saying dogs should be on the move at all times during this period? A destructive dog means one that destroys things, whatever they are, which could lead to its own destruction of that of its owners eg causing a fire? Really, if you do not believe in crates nobody is forcing you to use one.
> But please do not then imply that all of us who do use them a) abuse them b) are not responsible owners who put their animals welfare first c) or that destructive dogs are miserable and would be better off in another home. You have no idea about how we live, care for, exercise, train, feed or otherwise our dogs.


The law also stipulated that before you get a dog you need to provide where to keep it. People just leave the dog at home here, and when necessary (as pups etc, change one roo/ an area in a room suitable for a dog if they are left alone). But this was the case for most people on PF too. Of course if you have a problem dog, it might we wise to clearly say that this is not a normal situation, as the dog has issues. Most dogs not not eat walls etc. all the time. But there are other threads for that question, this is about crating a dog

A dog needs not to walk all day, nor it should. It just needs to be a able to move about, when it wants to. About the amount of walks etc. I am not going to discuss that, as that is not topic. A dog could be kept in a crate for temporary use only a few hours at a time when traveling e.g. . Regular stops on a long journey are needed. For longer times and for everyday life a shoud not be closed in a crate. Many people on PF leave the door open to ensure that the dog can move freely, and still feel protected. I think that is a great solution.

But those who think it is ok to keep a dog locked in a crate for hours to stop it wandering at home I hope that next time they will actually think that there could be a better way.

Also those, who are getting dogs will also think where to keep it safe when they are away. If the answer is a crate, then they should not get a dog.



ReggieCrayJug said:


> My dog goes in his crate at night, when I pop to town ect. He is rarely in it other than them times as I work shifts and my mum works night so she's home in the day while I'm working. Yes he's locked in at night and no I don't think that's cruel, he likes his crate he feels safe in there. It's his own space!


I am sure that if your dogs likes it´s crate, you can leave the door open. That way you know that everything is ok also for the dog. Why not try it?



labradrk said:


> Yep. Like smokeybear I have two rooms downstairs, neither of which I would leave the puppy loose in without supervision for anything other than short periods. So called dog proofing a room is NOT an option for a lot of people in the real world.


When I had two pups I had only one bedroom. We used a partition to clear a safe Place for them, and still have room to wander and play. Not pretty nor practical for humans, but it was what the dogs needed.



ellenlouisepascoe said:


> I'm a "crater" with one of my dogs, Blade goes in a crate the others are loose.
> We crate trained as a way to toilet train because at 6 months old he was still using the entirety of my downstairs as his own personal toilet on a night time.
> It took us about another 5/6 months to 100% crate train him.
> 
> ...


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

labradrk said:


> I was mistaken, Why, do you not agree about crates being abusive?


 I, personally, don't like crates simply because, despite our best efforts to prove otherwise, they are open to abuse. Just as, I suppose, most things in this life are.
We know it's wrong to abuse an animal, yet there are still those who ignore this and continue to abuse them regardless. It is solely because of these people such laws are made and set in place in the attempt to protect those most vulnerable..

Now, as I consider that I didn't cause any of this 5hit, I feel that it is not necessary for me to do any of the mucking out.

I am responsible only for the behaviour of Zara & Oscar.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I agree. dogs living in constant stress probably should be rehomed. I suppose Im just really lucky that Im a crate fan then! My boys are horribly stressed if they are loose together in a room, even both on leads but if one of them is crated it creates a sense of security for them so they can be in the same room without any stress at all. They love their crates and tend to eat in there and often are found snoozing inside when they are supposed to be out. The only time they get stressed is when they want to be chasing the cat (but since they arent supposed to chase the cat the crate is probably a good thing!).
> Crate and rotate takes alot of effort and time and def isnt an easy option. If I wasnt commited to my dogs and more importantly if they werent completely happy I would find another option like rehoming. I really dont think that a blanket ban on a useful item like a crate is helpful.


It may be helpful in not letting people slip into overuse without even realising it.
It's easily done and excused with it being the dogs love it. But if they are in for a large chunk of hours, then it is misused.
I agree with this law, they should be used for those circumstances and not as standard practise.

I wouldn't say you was lucky you are a fan if it means the dogs spend too much time in it personally.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I still don't understand exactly what it is people have against a crate while saying it's fine to use a single room. It's possible to abuse locking a dog away in one room, i know plenty of dogs who live in one room and it's not the most used room in the house. My crate is bigger than my kitchen, Spen can't even turn around in the kitchen yet has plenty of room to in his crate. It takes up about half my living room which is why we don't have it up here, there's not the space. It's impossible to remove all chewable things from a room. Rupert could also open doors so simply shutting him in a room wasn't an option, I had to add locks if I wanted to be able to do that. And then he still chewed (and no, it was neither separation anxiety or boredom, he was just a chewer and had learned that when nobody was there he could chew to his hearts content). He certainly didn't have a miserable existance, some dogs just like to chew I'm afraid. Baby gates would have been jumped over or if he couldn't do that he'd have still destroyed the room he was in anyway.

Can crates be misused? Oh hell yes, I don't agree with locking a dog in there 20 hours a day which some people do given that they crate both while they're out at work all day and then overnight to. But so can any other equipment. I could baby gate my dog in my tiny kitchen all day. I could tether him in the garden all day. I could beat him with his leash, strangle him with his collar, terrify him with a scary object for my own amusement. All of which plenty of people actually do to their pets but these things aren't banned...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Most dogs don't eat walls?

I really should laugh, but tbh I find it bloody insulting to think that someone can sit so high in judgement that they think people shouldn't have dogs and should rehome them if they crate them.

Flat collars can be abused! Kennels can be abused, leads can be abused, food can be abused let's bin all these things and it people insist on using them tell them to rehome their dogs!!

Plenty of dogs are left outside with no human contact except for food when remembered in all weathers!

Dogs are locked in one room 24 hours a day.


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

This thread is kind of bonkers. Crate is essentially a secure bed. Can they be abused? hell yeah. So can collars, leads, nail clippers, gaffer tape. Happy dog is a happy dog. If the lodger had a choice between a crate in an office watching the world go by, or separate room he'd take the crate. He actually has done. Exs dog went off to kip in the tent, lodger came and curled up in his travel crate under the camping table. I've never specifically crate trained. He has a crate in the car, which is his preferred method of car travel. He was in it a lot on a two week french camping trip/ tour. We all had a great time - don't see the difference between settling in a crate or a sofa. Talking of bonkers, the Exs dog spends time in a bag under the desk on the occasions he works on site. Dog's perfectly happy. Get's to explore new places, get fussed over by new people - kipping through a boring meeting is no problem.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> I do know that a it is better for a dog to be able to move about than not. If a dog spends most of his time in a crate, it is better off in a kennel.
> A dog needs not to walk all day, nor it should. It just needs to be a able to move about, when it wants to.
> 
> But those who think it is ok to keep a dog locked in a crate for hours to stop it wandering at home I hope that next time they will actually think that there could be a better way.


I think anybody who wants to crate a dog just to stop it 'wandering about' is exactly the kind of person who would misuse a crate and I agree then its not a suitable use of one. However not every dog constantly needs to wander around the house! My lot spend 95% of their time snoozing in their beds when they are home, both the boys and the girls who dont need crates. Hannah barely moves out of her catbed most of the time.
Also why should a crate prevent a dog from moving about?? Both my boys have a crate which is large enough to fit a decent sized bed and enough floor space for them to walk in a circle. They have toys and water and most importantly get to spend time in my front room with me and the rest of their family.



emmaviolet said:


> It may be helpful in not letting people slip into overuse without even realising it.
> It's easily done and excused with it being the dogs love it. But if they are in for a large chunk of hours, then it is misused.
> .


I get that you are a fan of rehoming problem dogs but not everybody is. Sometimes we dont want to abandon them to a system that might not want to deal with their problems. Im not sure why you are lumping those of us with complicated pooches in with those who use a crate as a convenience. Its not an excuse that my dogs love their crates...its extreme gratitude on my part that they do and I dont have to lose them.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

I do in some ways find this thread interesting. I am not a fan of outside kennels and enclosures at all.I definitely don't think dogs should be left in them over night or when owners aren't at home as for me the dogs safety would be a concern, I do wonder why people have their dogs if they are outside 24/7 and the owners see them only for feeding or walking. Yet people still would think kennelling is perfectly acceptable where dogs are exposed to the elements, might be fine when you leave the house but weather is very changeable, I noticed one post mention if the weather is fine their dog goes outside, they also mentioned River Lagan in another post? That would make me think they were in NI where we get 4 seasons in a day...I don't think they should be banned though nor do I think people who use them correctly are abusing their dogs nor do I think they should be rehomed...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Mrsred said:


> I get that you are a fan of rehoming problem dogs but not everybody is. Sometimes we dont want to abandon them to a system that might not want to deal with their problems. Im not sure why you are lumping those of us with complicated pooches in with those who use a crate as a convenience. Its not an excuse that my dogs love their crates...its extreme gratitude on my part that they do and I dont have to lose them.


I actually am not a fan of rehoming problem dogs, nothing could be further from the truth in fact. I have never rehomed and hope never to have to. We have had a problem dog before, worked through it, believe me rehoming is not something I am a fan of at all and I hate that the system is so overcrowded.
I am only a fan if it means quality of life will be improved.

Yes they may love them, I know it has been compared to Stockholm syndrome in the past, if they know no better, and associate it with food they end up loving it. It still doesn't mean being in a cage for the majority of the day is good, no mater if they seem happy in them. It's just not, if they are in there for working hours and sleeping hours, it's too long in a cage for a dog, it just is. It may not be what people want to hear as it doesn't fit in with what they want to do, but it just is and always will be.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> I actually am not a fan of rehoming problem dogs, nothing could be further from the truth in fact. I have never rehomed and hope never to have to. We have had a problem dog before, worked through it, believe me rehoming is not something I am a fan of at all and I hate that the system is so overcrowded.
> I am only a fan if it means quality of life will be improved.
> 
> Yes they may love them, I know it has been compared to Stockholm syndrome in the past, if they know no better, and associate it with food they end up loving it. It still doesn't mean being in a cage for the majority of the day is good, no mater if they seem happy in them. It's just not, if they are in there for working hours and sleeping hours, it's too long in a cage for a dog, it just is. It may not be what people want to hear as it doesn't fit in with what they want to do, but it just is and always will be.


There but for the grace of God and all that, I sincerely hope you never end up with multiple dogs, and have big issues with them...


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> But police dogs in the UK (and other countries) spend a great deal of time in their crates in their cars so that they can be deployed quickly. They are not lounging around in their family home or kennel waiting for the telephone to ring.
> 
> But guess what, they are also trained with positive methods.
> 
> ...


The bolded bit - is that a joke. Read it carefully and think about the tone of the majority of your posts.



emmaviolet said:


> ing i
> 
> Maybe then if the dogs would do that to each other our love for them shouldn't be the number one factor and if we loved them we would want them to lead a happy life.
> Dogs who are so, so bad together should most likely be rehomed. I'm sorry it may sound harsh, but they are obviously living in constant stress to be that way to each other and have to be crated for long hours and kept away from each other.
> Sometimes we have to put their wellbeing first and maybe it may be hard to face up to, but they are not living in the best environment for them if they really would tear each other limb for limb.


Exactly. Could not agree more. And if they are not rehomeable there is another option. Surely better dead than living in constant stress.
I have known a few people who have kept their dogs split up, not in crates but in separate rooms. I have never approved and I never will.

When I was 17 I lived in a bedsit in a house with a rather eccentric couple. They owned a poodle and a young bull mastiff who did not get on. The bloke lived in the kitchen with the poodle and the woman lived in the bedroom (most of the time in bed) with the bull mastiff. When I arrived on the scene the bull mastiff was not being walked as it pulled the bloke over (the wife had never walked it). It had literally pulled him over in the middle of the road. I made it my job to walk it and on a choke chain with a couple of timely corrections (shock horror and shoot me for cruelty) the dog was enjoying long walks, going past other dogs on a loose lead, running beside me on a loose lead and going to weekly training classes which we both thoroughly enjoyed.



melannie said:


> Load of garbage although they can all say what they want, the cage, lets face it, its normally a cage and people call them a crate, so crate or cage same thing, personally I wish I would have discovered or known about dog crates/cages decades and decades ago because they are sometimes an absolute must have and if you can get the dog to wander in and out of its own free will then thats even better, if not then I use them for the dogs sleeping time as I dont trust him yet to have free run of the house and it will be a long time before I do as far as I can see, plus the cages also help me a lot when I need to go out, or have some time out to get myself a bath and other things, I wouldnt be without one ever again and would advise everyone to at least give them a try if they have a dog from it being a very young puppy and that way it grows to know that is his place and thats it.
> 
> Also, what about a human baby child in a cot, that's a cage in theory too, same thing, think about it, so in that case we all must be total nutter's and all of our mothers and fathers and their mothers and father s and so on and on for ever and ever......its a load of rubbish.


A human baby is not wanting to wander around as they cannot move!. Some people do not like putting them in cots even so and will carry them around with them and sleep with them. 
Why on earth would you want to crate your dog when you have a bath. To me, to have to do that would be a total misery unless he is a tiny puppy.

I have had destructive dogs who have been limited to one room and everything taken away that they could damage if I am not around. If they chew floor coverings and skirtings it is a pain in the neck. I have also kennelled dogs when I was out for long hours at work. I would not have only owned one dog as I would not have felt that fair so they had a kennel and run in the garden for work time and night time. The rest of the time was given up to the dogs so they were with me constantly. Most dog owners do not want to devote their life to their dog though.
I have used crates for young puppies for the first few weeks and found it a wonderful tool that has made house training much easier and meant I could leave them on their own from day one for an hour or so without worrying about them. But as soon as they were past the baby puppy stage the door was open.

I fail to see what relevance there is to a dog choosing to sleep in its crate. Long before crates became the norm puppy owners were advised to make a den area for the dog so that it had somewhere private to go. My dogs have a little alcove between 2 kitchen units and with a worktop above. It is where the crate used to go and when that was removed they carried on using the space. They have a chair right next to it which is also a bed for them and they have beds in the sitting room but they often choose to sleep in the den bed in the day and one of them always sleeps there at night. I have noticed they usually go in there if we have visitors too. The difference being that they can choose to go in , they are not shut in.

It is not much use people giving their personal experiences of crating anyway. Members if this forum are quite diverse in their dog care but on the whole most will be dog fanatics not normal everyday dog owners. Laws are passed because they are needed for the majority (or in many cases a tiny minority) and the rest of us get caught up in them. If there are a lot of dogs being shut in crates for the majority of their lives is it not good that there is a law in some countries to try and improve their welfare. It is very annoying if someone who feels they are using a crate responsibly gets affected but for the good of all the other dogs is this not a good thing.

What about gun laws, they affect the leisure gun owner enormously and probably do not impact very much on the criminal fraternity but we still have the law.

A new law that has impacted on me and most people I know a fair bit is the drink drive law that was changed in Scotland last year. The legal limit has become so low that you cannot even have a small glass of wine. I belong to clubs where everyone used to partake of one glass of wine in an evening and then drive home. The day the law changed we all stopped. Problem is of course that those that were regularly over the old limit have not changed their drinking habits though I do notice a lot of the youngsters will not drive the day after virtually any alcohol as it is such a low limit now that virtually anything left the next day will result in loss of license so maybe it will slowly start to work.

What I am trying to say is that any new law that is brought out will impact on the wrong people - but if it makes people aware maybe it is not always a bad thing.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

labradrk said:


> I was mistaken, it was MrsZee who persistently mentioned abuse and that anyone who used a crate should relinquish their dogs to a shelter. Why, do you not agree with her about crates being abusive? do you also believe that dogs are better off in shelters than being being crated for any length of time? does MrsZee even feel comfortable talking to an entire group full of animal abusers?


I said and will say that all dogs kept in a crate *for hours an end every day is an abuse*. The word abuse is used in the law too. And a dog subject to abuse should be taken away, if the abuse doesn´t stop. Simple as that.

Do you really mean that it is ok for a dog to be locked in a crate for hours every day? This is what the law is about, *not temporary* use, but using a crate for hours. Not for medical reasons, but to keep the dog from being able to move in a room/house. I presume that most people, who have crates on PF, actually use them for short periods only and for temporary situations. Unfortunately in real world that is not the case, as vets/ people working for animal rescue are rescuing more and more dogs kept in crates all day, every day.

But a good question would be, and shoud be, when using a crate becomes abuse? (a crate = door is bolted) It is a really dangerous concept to think that it is a normal way to keep a dog for hours, whenever it suits the owner. How many hours you think it is ok to use a crate and is it something you would promote automatically for all dogs? I could not know, as I don´t know anyone who uses a crate. Also I don´t want to promote using a crate, as it is so easy to leave a dog there for a long time and think it is ok, as it just sleeps.

Also maybe those you can leave the crate door open could give you some advice how they can do it? Surely that would be something all of you using a crate would like to achieve.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

@Blitz really surely the irony of you sticking fingers up at people who consider checking dogs with choke chains as cruel in a thread about those who use crates being cruel?

So you are okay with your kind of abuse but not a deemed abuse you don't practice yourself?

Oh and FYI rather like everyone telling people there are other ways than using crates what you achieved could have been done without a choke chain....

Not see the irony of you comment?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> There but for the grace of God and all that, I sincerely hope you never end up with multiple dogs, and have big issues with them...


I don't see me being any different to any other owner that you need to be that bothered.

I've never rehomed and never intend to either. When a dog comes in here it is a dog for life. Alfie is fine with any animal, dogs, cats, even birds. If I got another dog it would be one that is suitable in every way, I'm not a leaper into buying dogs, I don't do things on a whim if a cute dog catches my eye. I had wanted to get a puppy just a year after Alfie, he turns five this year and is still on his own as I have not felt the time is perfect, for him at first and now me.

If I did get another dog it would be from a breeder who would take a dog back whatever the situation, so I would never rehome without exploring all options, but should it come to it, then I would have a breeders back up and the dog would not suffer, so no need to prey for the dog that would join our household.
I would never want a life for Alfie or a new dog that would involve a large chunk of their lives locked in a cage, if that turned out to be the only life I could provide for them, then I am not the right home for the dog.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> There but for the grace of God and all that, I sincerely hope you never end up with multiple dogs, and have big issues with them...


Because you picked up on my post, I presume you disagree.
Do you disagree with the fact that a dog shouldn't be left in a cage for long working hours and sleeping hours then? So say at least eight hours of sleeping time and at least eight hours for work, plus sometimes travelling time. So dogs in a locked cage for what could be more then sixteen hours a day is fine? So two thirds or more of a day spent locked in a cage is fine for a dog? For me it's a no briner and no, no matter what the circumstances are, if it's aggression or destruction, it's not fine and should never be allowed.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

So is it abuse to leave ur dog in a crate for hours on end if in those hours said dog was asleep?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Meezey said:


> @Blitz really surely the irony of you sticking fingers up at people who consider checking dogs with choke chains as cruel in a thread about those who use crates being cruel?
> 
> So you are okay with your kind of abuse but not a deemed abuse you don't practice yourself?
> 
> ...


I do not see any irony in it at all. If crates are used correctly they are not abuse, if check chains and correction is used correctly it is not abuse, if e collars are used correctly they are not abuse. Used incorrectly all of them COULD be abuse. It just makes me laugh that on here there are many that say it is fine to keep your dog crated but it is not ok to train your dog by methods that work easily and quickly when used correctly . That is ironic if you want something to be. Why is it ok to say 'I know I use a crate a lot but my dogs do not mind it and it is necessary for their well being. But at the same time it is immensely cruel to train a dog in a way that both handler and dog are very happy with and which produces a happy well rounded dog because I do not approve of it'
In fact the dog I was giving as an example was 43 years ago before the days of crates and when most dogs were trained with check chains. Although I have nothing against them on the right dog with the right handler I actually stopped using them on my dogs in 1975 because I preferred half checks or flat collars and stopped recommending them for other dogs not long after because too many owners use them incorrectly. My current dogs are in flat collars all the time but if I met someone using a check or half check correctly I would not criticise them for their choice. Horses for courses and not one fits all.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

What exactly is considered a large chunk of time? Before moving here where we simply don't have space to keep the crate up Spen was crated for around 5 hours each Wed evening and 2 hours on a Saturday with the occasional couple of hours if I had a doctors appointment or something. Hardly what I'd consider excessive yet I'm being lumped in with those who crate a dog 20 hours a day simply because I use a crate?

You can choose a dog extremely carefully and still have something go wrong and end up with a problem dog. There but for the grace of god go I...


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrRustyRead said:


> So is it abuse to leave ur dog in a crate for hours on end if in those hours said dog was asleep?


Why not just open the door and the can choose what he needs. Sleep or have a bit of wander. If the dog has been walked etc, it is likely to be happy sleeping. But as we cannot ask the dog, lets leave the option for the dog. Some dogs need to move about more, especially when they get older. Based on what I read about your post , you treat your dogs well, so I´m pretty sure they will be contect just to sleep, so why not let them choose. I talk only of the every day situations here, not special occations.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

MrsZee said:


> Why not just open the door and the can choose what he needs. Sleep or have a bit of wander. If the dog has been walked etc, it is likely to be happy sleeping. But as we cannot ask the dog, lets leave the option for the dog. Some dogs need to move about more, especially when they get older. Based on what I read about your post , you treat your dogs well, so I´m pretty sure they will be contect just to sleep, so why not let them choose. I talk only of the every day situations here, not special occations.


Thats what i mostly do, only time it is shut is when he is asleep at night, due to me not being there to supervise around the cats. If i didnt live with my parents he would be in my bed with me ha, he has about 8 blankets in his crate that he wraps himself in ha as he is obsessed with blankets. as we speak he is wrapped in a blanket on the sofa next to me ha


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Because you picked up on my post, I presume you disagree.
> Do you disagree with the fact that a dog shouldn't be left in a cage for long working hours and sleeping hours then? So say at least eight hours of sleeping time and at least eight hours for work, plus sometimes travelling time. So dogs in a locked cage for what could be more then sixteen hours a day is fine? So two thirds or more of a day spent locked in a cage is fine for a dog? For me it's a no briner and no, no matter what the circumstances are, if it's aggression or destruction, it's not fine and should never be allowed.


So is a dog being left in a kennel exposed to the environment without human company, or shut in a kitchen alone for 8 plus hours plus travelling time and sleeping hours acceptable? Is that also a no brainer for you because the dog can stretch its legs?

That's the crux of this some seem to think that shutting a dog in a rooms is fine or leaving them in a kennel is fine?

Personally I don't find either situation fine at all. So why aren't people preaching to those who use kennels or shutting dogs in room telling them to rehome their dogs?

Kennels can be abused, rooms can be abused, allowing your dog free access to the house can be abused!

I've read members on here who don't crate their dogs but don't allow them to run and play in the house lying quietly and doing nothing is a must? How is that better than being crated?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> I said and will say that all dogs kept in a crate *for hours an end every day is an abuse*. The word abuse is used in the law too. And a dog subject to abuse should be taken away, if the abuse doesn´t stop. Simple as that.
> 
> Do you really mean that it is ok for a dog to be locked in a crate for hours every day? This is what the law is about, *not temporary* use, but using a crate for hours. Not for medical reasons, but to keep the dog from being able to move in a room/house. I presume that most people, who have crates on PF, actually use them for short periods only and for temporary situations. Unfortunately in real world that is not the case, as vets/ people working for animal rescue are rescuing more and more dogs kept in crates all day, every day.
> 
> ...


But what IS hours on end? how long is a "short period only"? my pup had a training session and has been to the beach this morning, then was put in her crate with a chew while I took the other dogs out. Was this cruelty?

If the crate is there to PROTECT a puppy then yes you are going to close the door, otherwise what would be the point of using one? they aren't used because they are attractive pieces of furniture, people use them to contain a dog safely.

How can you say on one hand that you don't know anyone that uses a crate then on the other make the claim that vets/rescues are rescuing more dogs that are kept crated all day, every day? how do you know this? are crates more likely to abused than any other form of abuse - people who starve dogs, beats dogs, fight dogs, shoot dogs, leave a dog in a room all day every day, people who feed dogs to death?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Because you picked up on my post, I presume you disagree.
> Do you disagree with the fact that a dog shouldn't be left in a cage for long working hours and sleeping hours then? So say at least eight hours of sleeping time and at least eight hours for work, plus sometimes travelling time. So dogs in a locked cage for what could be more then sixteen hours a day is fine? So two thirds or more of a day spent locked in a cage is fine for a dog? For me it's a no briner and no, no matter what the circumstances are, if it's aggression or destruction, it's not fine and should never be allowed.


WHO on this thread has said that this is ok? oh yeah, no one. So where has this non fact been plucked from?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> Why not just open the door and the can choose what he needs. Sleep or have a bit of wander. If the dog has been walked etc, it is likely to be happy sleeping. But as we cannot ask the dog, lets leave the option for the dog. Some dogs need to move about more, especially when they get older. Based on what I read about your post , you treat your dogs well, so I´m pretty sure they will be contect just to sleep, so why not let them choose. I talk only of the every day situations here, not special occations.


Your posts show a distinct lack of understanding of the needs of different dogs and their owners.

Not all puppies/dogs are candidates for "choosing" how and where they are confined. The "choosing" part should be done by the owner based on the needs of the dog. If you have been blessed enough to live somewhere that provided enough "choice" for the dog to be safe to "choose" then you are very lucky. In the real world people have to make do with what they have.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I hate the bloody things, I'm always walking into them and bruising my legs and they make the place look untidy. Two of my dogs hate them too. Unfortunately Arthur loves his so much we have to lug a soft/portable one around with us when we go away just so that he can snuggle up in his den in peace away from the other two. Anything goes missing in our house - look in Arthur's crate and you will find it (not funny when its dirty underwear ). No I don't shut him in for hours on end but then I have no need to as I work from home and he sleeps upstairs with us at night so that we can hear him if he decides to get up to mischief.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MrsZee said:


> Also maybe those you can leave the crate door open could give you some advice how they can do it? Surely that would be something all of you using a crate would like to achieve.


Are you aware how incredibly patronising you sound?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

I love that one " crate the dog when need time for myself"....


I am afraid that says it all...
Initially with babies and puppies you need to watch them a lot.
Cot is used when baby cannot was quite walk. But can roll and fall.
Same as boxes for mum and her litter.But mum can go out.

Crate can be just open all the time used as a bed etc...dog space and easily moved when travelling.

There is a syndrome when dog is so used to confinement that is insecure outside. Seen often in dogs rescued from puppy farms etc...
Seen in human prisoners too...

Sad.

Imagine husky locked 20 hours a day in a small cage.

That is abuse. Tell me the husky is very destructive in your flat and you are away long hours.

Did you think about it before getting that dog?

Someone with that problem sold t heir flat and moved to tiny cottage far away...so their dogs can have secure run when owners are away and no more destruction in the house.

Just an example of course.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

labradrk said:


> But what IS hours on end? how long is a "short period only"? my pup had a training session and has been to the beach this morning, then was put in her crate with a chew while I took the other dogs out. Was this cruelty?
> 
> If the crate is there to PROTECT a puppy then yes you are going to close the door, otherwise what would be the point of using one? they aren't used because they are attractive pieces of furniture, people use them to contain a dog safely.
> 
> How can you say on one hand that you don't know anyone that uses a crate then on the other make the claim that vets/rescues are rescuing more dogs that are kept crated all day, every day? how do you know this? are crates more likely to abused than any other form of abuse - people who starve dogs, beats dogs, fight dogs, shoot dogs, leave a dog in a room all day every day, people who feed dogs to death?


Looks like you, who uses the crate, don´t really know what is a reasonable time. The example you used is a bit far fecthed, but if you want my opinion, that is temporary. Maybe your questions show that we would need time limits, as that seems to so difficult to define.

And to say that as there is so much different version of abuse, we cannot talk about the abuse crating a dog for a long time creates is not very sensible, is it? All abuse is bad. The question was that many didn´t even think that crating a dog too long is abuse, as the dog get fea d, was not beating etc. But hopefully that idea has changed a bit and people will think carefully how and when to use a crate. Many did that automatically anyway, (like your example with the pup) but not all. And that where the danger was. Abuse is so easy, if only thing you need to do is to leave a dog in a crate for a long time.

To use a crate for the safety of a dog is something I don´t understand on a permanent basis. What is so dangerous and different in your home that makes your home so different? Maybe those with similar circumstances could help, as the majority don´t need to crate a dog.

How I know about the increased amount of cases abusing a crate, when I don´t know anyone using it? Well, as the title suggested, this was about a law, not about my personal experiences. Statistics from people rescuing dogs are showing an increased used of crates, where the dog was spending most of it´s time in a crate. I sincerely hope no one is not encouraging anyone to do that, and clearly state that dogs use crates only for short period of times fo rgood reasons,

For me the question of using a crate for night time is a bit puzzling, my dogs need to move places in the night, and the older they get, the more they like to move about. But then is this typical? Are some dogs different?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

labradrk said:


> WHO on this thread has said that this is ok? oh yeah, no one. So where has this non fact been plucked from?


Well if dogs cannot ever be left out alone outside of the crate and the owners work and then sleep, then that's the long and short of it.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

labradrk said:


> WHO on this thread has said that this is ok? oh yeah, no one. So where has this non fact been plucked from?





Meezey said:


> So is a dog being left in a kennel exposed to the environment without human company, or shut in a kitchen alone for 8 plus hours plus travelling time and sleeping hours acceptable? Is that also a no brainer for you because the dog can stretch its legs?
> 
> That's the crux of this some seem to think that shutting a dog in a rooms is fine or leaving them in a kennel is fine?
> 
> ...


I don't agree with that either.
If a dog spends that much time lone in a room all day and night and trapped I don't see it as much better. I don't like any, but I do see a huge difference with stuck in a cage, pretty much because the dog cannot move to a different area, cannot jump up and if it does it will get hurt by it, cannot walk around (I know people will argue in the big ones they can, but not any length at all!), just stuck in a cage.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> Looks like you, who uses the crate don´t really know what is a reasonable time. The example you used is a bit far fecthed, but if you want my opinion, that is temporary. Maybe your questions show that we would need time limits, as that seems to so difficult to define.
> 
> And to say that as there is so much different version of abuse, we cannot talk about the abuse crating a dog for a long time creates is not very sensible, is it? All abuse is bad. The question was that many didn´t even think that crating a dog too long is abuse, as the dog get fea d, was not beating etc. But hopefully that idea has changed a bit and people will think carefully how and when to use a crate. Many did that automatically anyway, (like your example with the pup) but not all. And that where the danger was. Abuse is so easy, if only thing you need to do is to leave a dog in a crate for a long time.
> 
> ...


My house is perfectly normal, it's my dog that's not, lol.

The plan for the crate was that he'd be in one as a puppy until he was relatively free of chewing and tbh, I was planning to then get rid of it, instead he had surgery and I had to buy an adult size one, then he never stopped chewing, then he developed behavioural issues, then more health problems.

I could manage him and the cats fine with just doors when no-one is in, but with no-one to tell him to leave or drop stuff he'd ingest things he shouldn't because he will randomly take a notion to a wall or a door or he'll suddenly decide something you haven't removed because he's never been interested in it is fascinating...he will do it when we're here, but that's not an issue because we see him and can stop him.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

I have a crate, it has been extremely useful in the past with having foster dogs and resident cats. I would like the have got rid of the crate, it is huge and takes up a lot of space, unfortunately my boy dog likes to take himself off to lie in there, sprawled out and looking dramatically through the bars with his `poor me` puppy dogs eyes. 

We have the `it`s got go` talk every so often ( crate, not dog, although I have my moments!) when he hasn`t used it for a couple of weeks, but then the little bugger decides it is his favourite place to be again! 

So we have a giant metal crate stuck in the house, covered with a table cloth to at least make it look a bit decent, just because we don`t want to upset our little one. Now should crates become illegal in the UK I can get rid of the darn thing and tell his highness `it`s not my fault mate , it`s the law` without a shadow of guilt


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

emmaviolet said:


> For me it's a no briner and no, no matter what the circumstances are, if it's aggression or destruction, it's not fine and should never be allowed.


So for you the destruction of the dog would be preferable? Coz not alot of people are keen to rehome a DA or incredibly destructive dog....if said dog also happens to be a 'devil dog' then its pretty much an instant death sentence.



MrsZee said:


> To use a crate for the safety of a dog is something I don´t understand on a permanent basis. What is so dangerous and different in your home that makes your home so different? Maybe those with similar circumstances could help, as the majority don´t need to crate a dog.
> 
> For me the question of using a crate for night time is a bit puzzling, my dogs need to move places in the night, and the older they get, the more they like to move about. But then is this typical? Are some dogs different?


As to your first point it suggests to me you dont really understand the kinds of problems some people face with their dogs. Not all dogs are perfect and sadly some are less fixable then they are manageable.
As to the second it sounds like you have some very fidgety dogs! My lot dont move overnight...which I know as they sleep in the bed (the boys alternate between bed and crate). Tell a lie, they do move if I shove them but Im not sure if that ever wakes them up!:Smuggrin


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> Looks like you, who uses the crate, don´t really know what is a reasonable time. The example you used is a bit far fecthed, but if you want my opinion, that is temporary. Maybe your questions show that we would need time limits, as that seems to so difficult to define.
> 
> And to say that as there is so much different version of abuse, we cannot talk about the abuse crating a dog for a long time creates is not very sensible, is it? All abuse is bad. The question was that many didn´t even think that crating a dog too long is abuse, as the dog get fea d, was not beating etc. But hopefully that idea has changed a bit and people will think carefully how and when to use a crate. Many did that automatically anyway, (like your example with the pup) but not all. And that where the danger was. Abuse is so easy, if only thing you need to do is to leave a dog in a crate for a long time.
> 
> ...


So you don't understand the necessity of crating a puppy when you don't have a a suitable 'dog proof' room? what would be your solution for those with puppies that do not have a dog proofed room?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Dogs I see at vets, petshops, hairdresses etc. typically have a space behind the desk, which simply has a gate at both ends.


And that space is no bigger than the space the dog has in his crate! Actually with the dog I'm talking about, he has more room in his crate than he would have gated up behind the desk. And he won't be stepped on by the receptionists 
So basically you're okay with gating up a small area, but crating not? Yet there is absolutely no difference!
It's still a dog confined to a small space.



MrsZee said:


> Also those, who are getting dogs will also think where to keep it safe when they are away. If the answer is a crate, then they should not get a dog.


WHAT?! Do you know how many dogs you have just condemned to not having a home? To NEVER having a home? Every single new dog we have rescued, that dog gets put in a crate when we are not home. Not only for that dog's safety, but for the safety of our other dogs. No question. Except one of our danes, he got put in a stall in the barn. Which in my opinion was worse than being put in a crate. But we didn't have a crate big enough and we needed vet results back on what diseases he had before bringing him in the house.
That's not an unusual situation either. Many responsible rescues recommend crating for SAFETY reasons. Many breeders do too. Most foster situations require a crate. You won't be allowed to foster unless you are planning on crating for safety.



MrsZee said:


> To use a crate for the safety of a dog is something I don´t understand on a permanent basis. What is so dangerous and different in your home that makes your home so different? Maybe those with similar circumstances could help, as the majority don´t need to crate a dog.


And this right here shows that just like you said, you do not understand.
Not all dogs are like the ones you have owned. For those of us who have worked with many dogs of different backgrounds, breeds, and experiences, we KNOW some dogs are just not going to be safe unless confined to a secure crate. Has nothing to do with owner laziness, the dog having "issues" or being in the wrong home. Some dogs just need a crate, and to say the owners who do what is right for their dogs are being abusive is really unkind.

Leashes and collars can be abused. They cause dogs to be strangled, have collapsed tracheas, thyroid damage, laryngeal paralysis, and nerve damage. Yet no one is calling for the restriction of use of leashes and collars are they? No one is saying if you need to use a leash and collar as a permanent solution the dog is in the wrong home or your should never have gotten him. Let's be realistic here....


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I hate the bloody things, I'm always walking into them and bruising my legs and they make the place look untidy. Two of my dogs hate them too. Unfortunately Arthur loves his so much we have to lug a soft/portable one around with us when we go away just so that he can snuggle up in his den in peace away from the other two. Anything goes missing in our house - look in Arthur's crate and you will find it (not funny when its dirty underwear ). No I don't shut him in for hours on end but then I have no need to as I work from home and he sleeps upstairs with us at night so that we can hear him if he decides to get up to mischief.


Omg nothing worse than whacking your leg into the corner of a crate. :Arghh it hurts so bad, and the bruises stay for ages. I did it a couple of times when my oldest had been spayed when she was a pup and I used a smaller crate for her so that she wasn't jumping around with the other dogs while I was preparing her meals and pulling her stitches open. I don't have this problem with their big crate because it's so big it's like hip height on me.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

It is interesting why some are against resticting the use of crate so strongly? What is it that actually are opposing? That there are laws protecting animals? Or keeping a dog in a crate* for hours on a regular basis* (unless it is a medical reason). Shouldn´t agree that yes, keeping a dog in a crate for hours every day is not a good thing. And then we could be discussing if two hours is too much or how to create a safe home for dogs or what about using a crate at nights? Those questions to me are a sign of real concern and responsibility. And the answers would vary, but at least the starting point would be that crating is not ok, unless it is temporary. And the aim would be to have a happy dog, not just a happy owner.

As situations and dogs vary, we would all benefit from each other´s experiences, and find solutions to our problems. As a result the dogs might end up having crates with an open door, or even less time in a crate. Would that be possible? Could be put our own emotional reactions aside and focus on the well being of our dogs?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> So for you the destruction of the dog would be preferable? Coz not alot of people are keen to rehome a DA or incredibly destructive dog....if said dog also happens to be a 'devil dog' then its pretty much an instant death sentence.
> 
> As to your first point it suggests to me you dont really understand the kinds of problems some people face with their dogs. Not all dogs are perfect and sadly some are less fixable then they are manageable.
> As to the second it sounds like you have some very fidgety dogs! My lot dont move overnight...which I know as they sleep in the bed (the boys alternate between bed and crate). Tell a lie, they do move if I shove them but Im not sure if that ever wakes them up!:Smuggrin


I never said that.
If the dog spends as much time in a crate as my post indicated, it may be an option.
Firstly I would go to to every effort to rehome them, talk to the breeder, explore all options.
Maybe there is a reason why these dogs are devil dogs, are they not stimulated enough, this morning we met a man with a twenty month old Atika, rehomed from a rescue as he was destroying the home, he was left alone a lot and not given all he was required in a lot of aspects. He's a wonderful dog now he has someone with him and all he wants.

Do I think that a dog who spends 16 hours a day in a crate or more and no other options should be euthanized? Quite possibly if absolutely nobody is willing to take them on and try something new, that's not something I say lightly either. But that many hours in a cage is cruel to me.

All of our dogs and dogs we have had staying have always moved in the night, not fidgit, but move to a cooler spot or as I say next to the door and then back. To me it's a natural thing they do.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

['QUOTE="SingingWhippet, post: 1064399119, member: 1422598"]The door to the crate in the front room has been open all day so far. This is what it currently looks like:










They also have the option of two sofas (one of which has that same fleecy blanket on it) plus a pile of two kingsize duvets in front of the fire.

Not really that relevant to the discussion I know, just made me smile [/QUOTE]

Ohhhhh, the abuse!! Those poor dogs!! Someone tell the authorities! 

Haven't read all the replies, but here's my 2 pen'th (I'vs recently been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century and am typing on my new tablet, so just when I get to grips with typing on my phone, I have to start all over again on a giant one  ... forgive the errors  On the plus side ....... helllllooooo emojis :Woot).

Max isn't crated because he has never really taken to one and for him, it hasn't really been an issue. I was very anti-crating for a number of years.

Then I got Milly.

My, oh my was she a culture shock! Suddenly I had a dog who couldn't be trusted while alone, had SA while she settled in, was (is) destructive if she gets bored and still can't be trusted with certain items.

The day I got her crate was the day my sanity was saved! At first, I admit overused the crate, but I did what I thought best for my dog and my situation. I didn't abuse it in terms of convenience and sticking her in it for the slightest task, but when I had to go out and at night, she was crated.

I didn't like how long she was crated in those early days but I knew it was always a temporary solution until she could be trusted around doors, skirting boards, books and electricals. I know some have suggested putting her in the garden or Milly-proofing a room but living in a bad area, with an escape-artist dog a postage stamp of a garden and 4 rooms in total, with a dog who can and does reach the back of kitchen counters - it was crate her, or rehome her.

Now, the ONLY time she's crated is at night (and even then, if I am not at home for any reason, such as hospital, she's locked in my bedroom instead). Max has been known to take himself off to rest in her crate, and more and more frequently Milly herself is choosing her crate over other viable options such as bed or settled.

I don't think it is anyone's business if a dog is crated responsibly and for the right reasons. I also struggle to imagine how the law is going to be enforced if crates are allowed temporarily - what's going to happen? Are people going to be encouraged to spy on neighbours who have dogs and report anyone seen using a crate longer than a certain time frame? :Watching Are the police?

And who decides how long is necessary? If a dog is crated for medical reasons, who gets to say how quickly that dog should recover sufficiently for the crate to no longer be necessary?

All I can see this law doing, is making law abiding dog owners paranoid about using crates at all. And if space is a problem, I do wonder what other alternatives are open. 

If the dog is happy in the crate, where is the problem?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> It is interesting why some are against resticting the use of crate so strongly? What is it that actually are opposing? That there are laws protecting animals? Or keeping a dog in a crate* for hours on a regular basis* (unless it is a medical reason). Shouldn´t agree that yes, keeping a dog in a crate for hours every day is not a good thing. And then we could be discussing if two hours is too much or how to create a safe home for dogs or what about using a crate at nights? Those questions to me are a sign of real concern and responsibility. And the answers would vary, but at least the starting point would be that crating is not ok, unless it is temporary. And the aim would be to have a happy dog, not just a happy owner.
> 
> As situations and dogs vary, we would all benefit from each other´s experiences, and find solutions to our problems. As a result the dogs might end up having crates with an open door, or even less time in a crate. Would that be possible? Could be put our own emotional reactions aside and focus on the well being of our dogs?


You are not normally so condescending in your posts and I'm really surprised to read the above. 
I'm not having an emotional reaction, our current dogs are not crated nor do they need to be crated. This is not about me and my dogs, but about all those dogs you are condemning to never having a home because they will have to be crated, and all those owners you are saying are abusive because they crate their dogs as a permanent solution.

I am focusing on the well-being of the dogs. As someone who has worked in rescue for decades, and seen the worst of the worst, believe me, crating is VERY MUCH about the well-being of dogs. (And the cats and other pets in the home.)
You're saying that crating is not okay and I simply disagree with that.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> It is interesting why some are against resticting the use of crate so strongly? What is it that actually are opposing? That there are laws protecting animals? Or keeping a dog in a crate* for hours on a regular basis* (unless it is a medical reason). Shouldn´t agree that yes, keeping a dog in a crate for hours every day is not a good thing. And then we could be discussing if two hours is too much or how to create a safe home for dogs or what about using a crate at nights? Those questions to me are a sign of real concern and responsibility. And the answers would vary, but at least the starting point would be that crating is not ok, unless it is temporary. And the aim would be to have a happy dog, not just a happy owner.
> 
> *As situations and dogs vary, we would all benefit from each other´s experiences, and find solutions to our problems. As a result the dogs might end up having crates with an open door, or even less time in a crate. Would that be possible? Could be put our own emotional reactions aside and focus on the well being of our dogs?*


Where is that banging head on a brick wall emoji when you need it......

Again, what is the point of having a crate with the door open if it is needed for confinement?

I don't have a "problem" - I have a normal 11 week old puppy of a very active breed that if left to her own devices, would probably chew up everything that could fit in her mouth, and wind up my other dogs. Pretty standard puppy stuff and I have crated all my puppies. So if she has to be left, she's crated. Or sometimes if she gets cranky because she's over tired I'll pop her in her crate with a chew and she'll sleep straight away. It's a management tool and a very useful one at that.

Leaving the crate door open would be no good do those with destructive adult dogs (yeah it happens, yeah it is more common than you'd think, and yeah they are not always bored!), or dogs that don't get on, or dogs that have to be separated for any reason.....

Remember just because you have personally not experienced dogs that are any of those things does not mean that it doesn't happen.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> And that space is no bigger than the space the dog has in his crate!
> So basically you're okay with gating up a small area, but crating not? Yet there is absolutely no difference! It's still a dog confined to a small space.
> 
> WHAT?! Do you know how many dogs you have just condemned to not having a home? To NEVER having a home? Every single new dog we have rescued, that dog gets put in a crate when we are not home. Not only for that dog's safety, but for the safety of our other dogs. No question. Except one of our danes, he got put in a stall in the barn. Which in my opinion was worse than being put in a crate. But we didn't have a crate big enough and we needed vet results back on what diseases he had before bringing him in the house.
> ...


Should we start talking about the sizes what are adequate for a dog then? Crates are usually small, a dog can stand and turn. And then we could discuss for how long a dog can stay confined and, again, it will be a question of time. And we are back with the temporary use/ using a crate/ confidng a dog for hours. All good questions to me.

For foster/ rescue dogs situations for safety are different. Isnt´t that what the word temporary means? But surely the aim is to get the dog used into their new environment so that eventually they need not to be crated? You are not going to tell to new owners that if the dog has issues, just crate him. To me that would be very wrong and even cruel. You can see how easily we can misuse a crate, don´t you? I believe you are not suggesting a crate becomes an answer to solve problems permanently, as naturally a crated dog cannot do anything else but sleep. Using a crate every day for hours cannot be the ultimate solution, not even for rescue dogs.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Should we start talking about the sizes what are adequate for a dog then? Crates are usually small, a dog can stand and turn. And then we could discuss for how long a dog can stay confined and, again, it will be a question of time. And we are back with the temporary use/ using a crate/ confidng a dog for hours. All good questions to me.
> 
> For foster/ rescue dogs situations for safety are different. Isnt´t that what the word temporary means? But surely the aim is to get the dog used into their new environment so that eventually they need not to be crated? You are not going to tell to new owners that if the dog has issues, just crate him. To me that would be very wrong and even cruel. You can see how easily we can misuse a crate, don´t you? I believe you are not suggesting a crate becomes an answer to solve problems permanently, as naturally a crated dog cannot do anything else but sleep. Using a crate every day for hours cannot be the ultimate solution, not even for rescue dogs.


Maybe we should start by being familiar with how responsible, caring owners use crates appropriately. Which it seems you are not or you would not be asking the questions you are. 
Once you are familiar with appropriate uses of a crate, then you can start asking where the parameters for abuse are. 
What I think may happen as you start asking others how they use their crates, is that you will realize how not abused they are and that the vast majority of owners use crates responsibly in the best interest of their dogs.


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

I don't agree with the law. I think its silly. People who want to neglect and abuse their dogs dont need a crate to do this, they will do this in many other ways.

I have always used a crate for mine. Always shut the crate door if im not in the house.
At night and whilst at work they are in the crate with the door closed, until I feel I can trust the dogs not to chew things they shouldnt, which includes things that are dangerous to them (Molly once chewed through plastic trunking and live wiring up the side of the wall as a pup).

Penny out of mine is the only one crated now. Unless one is ill or had an operation.

I have never had a problem with crate training dogs, they whine at first, but whine when the downstairs door is shut and not in the crate. So the whining is from initial seperation not from the crate.
After a few days/week the dogs have always liked their crate and gone in it of their own free will when we are in the room when the crate door is kept open. This is due to feeding treats in their crate and food and they play with thei toys in and out of it. However they know that once the door gets shut it is time to settle down. Normally happy to do so as they are tired from play or walks.


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

Just measured my crate out of curiosity because I have no idea how big it actually is and it's just under 3ft high then 4ft by 2.5ft  I have 3 Cavs one about 8.5kg and two around 6kg.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MrsZee said:


> Should we start talking about the sizes what are adequate for a dog then? Crates are usually small, a dog can stand and turn. And then we could discuss for how long a dog can stay confined and, again, it will be a question of time. And we are back with the temporary use/ using a crate/ confidng a dog for hours. All good questions to me.
> 
> For foster/ rescue dogs situations for safety are different. Isnt´t that what the word temporary means? But surely the aim is to get the dog used into their new environment so that eventually they need not to be crated? You are not going to tell to new owners that if the dog has issues, just crate him. To me that would be very wrong and even cruel. You can see how easily we can misuse a crate, don´t you? I believe you are not suggesting a crate becomes an answer to solve problems permanently, as naturally a crated dog cannot do anything else but sleep. Using a crate every day for hours cannot be the ultimate solution, not even for rescue dogs.


You seem to have very little understanding of how crates are used.

Do you think leaving dogs outside can be abused?

Do you think leaving dogs in houses alone can be abused?

I am very much against all dog abuse, but using a crate doesn't equate to abuse...


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> Should we start talking about the sizes what are adequate for a dog then? Crates are usually small, a dog can stand and turn.
> 
> For foster/ rescue dogs situations for safety are different. Isnt´t that what the word temporary means? But surely the aim is to get the dog used into their new environment so that eventually they need not to be crated? You are not going to tell to new owners that if the dog has issues, just crate him. To me that would be very wrong and even cruel. You can see how easily we can misuse a crate, don´t you? I believe you are not suggesting a crate becomes an answer to solve problems permanently, as naturally a crated dog cannot do anything else but sleep. Using a crate every day for hours cannot be the ultimate solution, not even for rescue dogs.


A crate can be any size from tiny to enormous. Some dogs even prefer a smaller den for safety, just because they should be big enough that a dog can stand and turn around doesnt mean that it cant be much bigger.
I think everyone can see how crates can be misused and nobody is suggesting that the first course of action for a problem dog is to be crated. A caring owner would of gone through various attempts at training, vet visits, behaviourists, supplements, etc first. A crate can be the last resort between keeping your dog and loosing it and as long as the dog is happy then I think its a small price to pay. Please dont think that somebody chooses to crate their dog for safety reason as the 'ultimate solution', and please dont think they are all lazy or abusive either.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> It is interesting why some are against resticting the use of crate so strongly? What is it that actually are opposing? That there are laws protecting animals? Or keeping a dog in a crate* for hours on a regular basis* (unless it is a medical reason). Shouldn´t agree that yes, keeping a dog in a crate for hours every day is not a good thing. And then we could be discussing if two hours is too much or how to create a safe home for dogs or what about using a crate at nights? Those questions to me are a sign of real concern and responsibility. And the answers would vary, but at least the starting point would be that crating is not ok, unless it is temporary. And the aim would be to have a happy dog, not just a happy owner.
> 
> As situations and dogs vary, we would all benefit from each other´s experiences, and find solutions to our problems. As a result the dogs might end up having crates with an open door, or even less time in a crate. Would that be possible? Could be put our own emotional reactions aside and focus on the well being of our dogs?


What's making you think we're not focused on the wellbeing of our dogs?

Because some of us do something you wouldn't necessarily do, it doesn't mean you love your dogs more than we love ours.

I do use a crate because, with forty odd years of experience with terriers, I believe I know how to keep my dogs safe and, yes, shock, horror ............. happy.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

If someone is going to abuse a dog, they'll do it with or without a crate.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Just pondering this! I live in an open plan house! Am I abusing my animals more leaving them in crates when I am out OR when knowing there is a high chance one or possibly two of my dogs would kill my cats but still allowing them free access to the cats when not supervised? So does that mean because I didn't crate my dogs because its abuse but I knowingly allowed them to kill my cats if allowed to chase and predatory dift kicks in that's not abuse? Or because I know one of my dogs plays really rough and could possibly accidentally seriously injure or kill one of my others is it not abuse allowing them to free run even though I know my dogs and there is a risk of this happening? Or should I A.Give all my animals back to their breeders or B.Let a shelter deal with finding them all home? After all they are not crated for medical reasons, its not temporary... What an utterly crap owner I am, I can see how much better others care for their dogs than I because I chose to crate...


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Gemmaa said:


> What a sad and insulting thread.


Only if you start out looking to take it that way. Do you want pictures of dogs in small crates which are obviously cruelty cases. Plenty to be found if I wanted to..

Let's remember the original post.. I found it interesting and worth noting.



MrsZee said:


> I just read this article whihc stated very clearly that crating is legal only for travel and temporary occasions (dog shows, recovering etc) but that's it. For any other purpose it is considered animal abuse and considered criminal.
> 
> As this topic has been discussed at lenght before, I am not going to start another long thread about crating, I just wanted to share this information, as I read about it today.


This thread could easily have become instructive if people hadn't reached for their high horses.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Only if you start out looking to take it that way. Do you want pictures of dogs in small crates which are obviously cruelty cases. Plenty to be found if I wanted to..
> 
> Let's remember the original post.. I found it interesting and worth noting.
> 
> This thread could easily have become instructive if people hadn't reached for their high horses.


If the Finnish government is trying to make things like puppy farms illegal by outlawing crating, why not say, "in order to make it easier to prosecute puppy farms and pet stores, crating for long periods is now illegal"? 
But that's not what happened. 
Instead the thread became about owners who are crating in the best interest of their dogs and the other pets in their homes.

Comments like "if you're going to use a crate long term you shouldn't get a dog" have nothing to do with the very real cruelty of puppy farms, pet stores and hoarding cases.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Meezey said:


> Just pondering this! I live in an open plan house! Am I abusing my animals more leaving them in crates when I am out OR when knowing there is a high chance one or possibly two of my dogs would kill my cats but still allowing them free access to the cats when not supervised? So does that mean because I didn't crate my dogs because its abuse but I knowingly allowed them to kill my cats if allowed to chase and predatory dift kicks in that's not abuse? Or because I know one of my dogs plays really rough and could possibly accidentally seriously injure or kill one of my others is it not abuse allowing them to free run even though I know my dogs and there is a risk of this happening? Or should I A.Give all my animals back to their breeders or B.Let a shelter deal with finding them all home? After all they are not crated for medical reasons, its not temporary... What an utterly crap owner I am, I can see how much better others care for their dogs than I because I chose to crate...


See Brock is an only dog, and I have doors (I could not do open plan, lol) but his crate isn't temporary nor really for medical reasons as it's not to help his actual medical conditions.

Why dogs are crated is kind of irrelevant when you're talking about well looked after happy dogs.

As for crates being for people who have picked the wrong dog - that's quite frankly, laughable. People who have taken on too much won't suddenly be more careful picking dogs if crates are banned, they'll just shut them in bathrooms or lock them out in gardens like some people do anyway.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Only if you start out looking to take it that way. Do you want pictures of dogs in small crates which are obviously cruelty cases. Plenty to be found if I wanted to..
> 
> Let's remember the original post.. I found it interesting and worth noting.
> 
> This thread could easily have become instructive if people hadn't reached for their high horses.


With people being told they shouldn't own dogs and theirs would be better in rescue don't think the thread ever had any chance from the first post of being instructive.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Meezey said:


> You seem to have very little understanding of how crates are used.
> 
> Do you think leaving dogs outside can be abused?
> 
> ...


Or what about instead of crating the dog, the dog is sent to doggy daycare with all the problems those sort of set ups are fraught with?
Didn't a member recently say their dog went to doggy daycare where they play with other dogs for 7 hours five days a week? I know several owners here in the states who do similar and frankly, to me that sounds like doggy torture. 
Dogs NEED downtime, and 7 hours of having to interact with other dogs is IMO way too much even for the most gregarious of dogs. Should we be talking about limitations on daycare time?

It all gets just downright silly after a while. Just use common sense for crying out loud. No, dogs should not spend 10 hours a day in the crate, but that doesn't mean the solution is outlawing judicious crate time that makes sense for that dog.


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Goblin said:


> Only if you start out looking to take it that way. Do you want pictures of dogs in small crates which are obviously cruelty cases. Plenty to be found if I wanted to..
> 
> Let's remember the original post.. I found it interesting and worth noting.
> 
> This thread could easily have become instructive if people hadn't reached for their high horses.


I've seen plenty of photos of dogs in a crate which is too small for the dog - most of them in a rescue centre.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> Or what about instead of crating the dog, the dog is sent to doggy daycare with all the problems those sort of set ups are fraught with?
> Didn't a member recently say their dog went to doggy daycare where they play with other dogs for 7 hours five days a week? I know several owners here in the states who do similar and frankly, to me that sounds like doggy torture.
> Dogs NEED downtime, and 7 hours of having to interact with other dogs is IMO way too much even for the most gregarious of dogs. Should we be talking about limitations on daycare time?
> 
> It all gets just downright silly after a while. Just use common sense for crying out loud. No, dogs should not spend 10 hours a day in the crate, but that doesn't mean the solution is outlawing judicious crate time that makes sense for that dog.


Doggy day care is my idea of hell. KT would hate it, that many hours a day with stressed out hyper dogs constantly on the go and in her face would push her over the edge.

Out side in a kennel? Both would hate it, they don't even like being in the garden alone, Frenchies also are not outside dogs full stop.

Again unsure why people think 18 hours outside in a kennel or shut in a small room is acceptable just because the dogs can walk a few steps?


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

labradrk said:


> So you don't understand the necessity of crating a puppy when you don't have a a suitable 'dog proof' room? what would be your solution for those with puppies that do not have a dog proofed room?


This question has already been answered.. You MAKE a dog proof room. I mean, do you really "need" a kitchen? Or you could try removing the walls of your living room if your dog is one who likes to eat the plaster. Alternatively just drop him off at the local shelter where he could potentially spend the rest of his life, but hey ho, at least he's not in a crate for a few hours a day!


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Doggy day care is my idea of hell. KT would hate it, that many hours a day with stressed out hyper dogs constantly on the go and in her face would push her over the edge.
> 
> Out side in a kennel? Both would hate it, they don't even like being in the garden alone, Frenchies also are not outside dogs full stop.
> 
> Again unsure why people think 18 hours outside in a kennel or shut in a small room is acceptable just because the dogs can walk a few steps?


So we're back to the individual dog and his/her needs. 
My two would hate being outside while we're gone, but I've had dogs in the past who were happier outside than in. Working dogs like LGDs are far happier outside with the flock than inside, yet there are those who say it's cruel to leave a dog outside 24/7. 
My two would hate doggy daycare but many dogs enjoy it. (Though I still contend that 7 hours without downtime isn't good for ANY dog.)
Bates much prefers being in a crate at a dog show where he can see and hear everything going on, my friend's more sensitive sighthound prefers waiting in the car (egads now we're leaving dogs in cars!!!)

You simply can't judge other owners and their dogs by what is right for you and your dogs. 
@cheekyscrip posted a picture of her dog and cat together, if that were my dogs, the cat would be dead. Her standards won't work for my dogs, my standards won't work for her dogs. Dogs, their needs, their traits and personalities are incredibly diverse, and we have to allow for that before we start getting all high horse uppity about what others do for their own dogs.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Or what about instead of crating the dog, the dog is sent to doggy daycare with all the problems those sort of set ups are fraught with?
> Didn't a member recently say their dog went to doggy daycare where they play with other dogs for 7 hours five days a week? I know several owners here in the states who do similar and frankly, to me that sounds like doggy torture.
> Dogs NEED downtime, and 7 hours of having to interact with other dogs is IMO way too much even for the most gregarious of dogs. Should we be talking about limitations on daycare time?
> 
> It all gets just downright silly after a while. Just use common sense for crying out loud. No, dogs should not spend 10 hours a day in the crate, but that doesn't mean the solution is outlawing judicious crate time that makes sense for that dog.


I know you weren't being serious, but I'm actually laughing at the idea of doggy daycare for the DA, HA numpty dog.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

ouesi said:


> So we're back to the individual dog and his/her needs.
> My two would hate being outside while we're gone, but I've had dogs in the past who were happier outside than in. Working dogs like LGDs are far happier outside with the flock than inside, yet there are those who say it's cruel to leave a dog outside 24/7.
> My two would hate doggy daycare but many dogs enjoy it. (Though I still contend that 7 hours without downtime isn't good for ANY dog.)
> Bates much prefers being in a crate at a dog show where he can see and hear everything going on, my friend's more sensitive sighthound prefers waiting in the car (egads now we're leaving dogs in cars!!!)
> ...


I can post you a hundred pictures of my cats and dogs together they get on great, but I know two would 100% chase and one would 100% drift over to predator mode if left alone. Again people know their dogs, not going to tell people to rehome their dogs because they leave them with their cats...


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Right now this very second.... See the two curled up sleeping? He couldn't be trusted not to chase when alone...


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I do not see any irony in it at all. If crates are used correctly they are not abuse, if check chains and correction is used correctly it is not abuse, if e collars are used correctly they are not abuse. Used incorrectly all of them COULD be abuse. It just makes me laugh that on here there are many that say it is fine to keep your dog crated but it is not ok to train your dog by methods that work easily and quickly when used correctly .


Blitz, the difference between a crate and an ecollar is what they are designed to do. An ecollar is by design a tool of positive punishment or negative reinforcement - both requiring that the dog DISlike the sensation enough to work to avoid it. Crates are not designed to be unpleasant to a dog. In fact most of us who use them work very hard to make a crate a pleasant experience for the dog and most reputable dog professionals advise strongly against using the crate as punishment. 
I do not agree with banning training tools because I advocate for education and owner support so that those tools are not necessary. 
I do not agree with banning or restricting crate use because some dogs actually like and need their crate. I would have a really hard time arguing that there are dogs out there who like and need their ecollars.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

People throw up the abuse thing as in beating or not feeding the dog.

For me with the use of a crate, I would put it in with feeding the dog too much and having it overweight. That type of abuse, that isn't intentional and the dog may be well loved, but without noticing or seeing what is happening the dog gets fat/gets left in a cage for hours.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Meezey said:


> I can post you a hundred pictures of my cats and dogs together they get on great, but I know one would 100% chase and would drift over to predator mode if left alone. Again people know their dogs, not going to tell people to rehome their dogs because they leave them with their cats...


Yep, I wouldn't go so far as to say my cats and dogs get along great, but they can be in the presence of each other without stress. But the dogs I have and their traits and personalities mean that no matter how well they appear to get along with potential prey, they don't ever need to be left unattended with them.

When we have visiting dogs, same thing. They might get along great when we're around, but they're not housemates and life-long buddies and to me it's not worth the risk of leaving 5 dogs loose in the house together. I don't have 5 separate rooms for one, and even if I did, the dogs are happier where they can see, hear and smell each other, but just safely in a crate where I don't have to worry about someone getting excited about something outside and re-directing on to a hapless housemate, then that all escalating in to a 5 dog fight. All of which I can easily prevent if I'm home but have absolutely no control over when we're out.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> People throw up the abuse thing as in beating or not feeding the dog.
> 
> For me with the use of a crate, I would put it in with feeding the dog too much and having it overweight. That type of abuse, that isn't intentional and the dog may be well loved, but without noticing or seeing what is happening the dog gets fat/gets left in a cage for hours.


No they don't.... You have just thrown it up, don't see anyone else saying abuse is just physical, so now you are telling those who crate they are too stupid to see when they crate too much? Abuse can be being in the same room as your dog 24/7 and having nothing to do with your dog, expecting it to just lie there and do nothing all day until it's given its 2 walks and fed. Abuse is leaving a dog alone be it in a kennel in a kitchen or in a crate doing nothing with your dog and having no interaction.

Abuse is to me getting a dog and leaving it alone in a garden with no interaction at all from humans with inappropriate shelter your only interaction being yelling at it to shut up.

You seem and a few others seem to be focused more on the "crate" being the abuse rather than just long periods of being alone, not being engaged with, having nothing in life but four walls and a window or a kennel and run, giving a dog toys and a place to walk why you mental neglect it or abuse it doesn't make it a lesser abuse because a crate wasn't involved. Neglect is neglect be it in a crate or a kennel or enclosure...


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> No they don't.... You have just thrown it up, don't see anyone else saying abuse is just physical, so now you are telling those who crate they are too stupid to see when they crate too much? Abuse can be being in the same room as your dog 24/7 and having nothing to do with your dog, expecting it to just lie there and do nothing all day until it's given its 2 walks and fed. Abuse is leaving a dog alone be it in a kennel in a kitchen or in a crate doing nothing with your dog and having no interaction.
> 
> Abuse is to me getting a dog and leaving it alone in a garden with no interaction at all from humans with inappropriate shelter your only interaction being yelling at it to shut up.
> 
> You seem and a few others seem to be focused more on the "crate" being the abuse rather than just long periods of being alone, not being engaged with, having nothing in life but four walls and a window or a kennel and run, giving a dog toys and a place to walk why you mental neglect it or abuse it doesn't make it a lesser abuse because a crate wasn't involved. Neglect is neglect be it in a crate or a kennel or enclosure...


No I didn't, there have been a number of posts here comparing it, saying oh we must be as bad as those who don't feed or beat their dogs, I've read them over the course of the thread. I am calling nobody stupid, that is something you have come up with.

Yes, I agree neglect and abuse comes in those terms too, but also in a cage too and I think it can be quite easy to not see that abuse as much, because the dog is asleep, because it will go in on it's own accord and so on. A cage restricts movement of an animal for hours, I don't think it is fair to the animal.

Obviously there is something behind this, these government's have come up with the law for a good reason.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> I love that one " crate the dog when need time for myself"....
> 
> I am afraid that says it all...
> Initially with babies and puppies you need to watch them a lot.
> ...


What is wrong with crating a dog though for a few hours to have time to yourself? I don't think of new parent's going on date nights/having quality time together without their baby as cruel and the same applies for those leaving dogs for some quality time to yourself. Frankly, for new puppy owners having a shower/attending to daily chores is made much easier if you can simply contain the puppy whilst you get on with what you've got to do. Anyone who has tried getting on with things with a puppy under your feet, getting into everything and generally causing mayhem can attest to the fact it's much quicker to simply leave pup in it's crate for an hour or so.

And whilst on the subject of leaving dogs alone for long periods. I was out for 6 hours yesterday evening, getting back at around 10.30ish, spent half an hour or so with Cash on returning before heading to bed, where he was left alone again for another 8/9 hours. He wasn't crated, but is kept in the hallway and kitchen. I don't believe for one minute that leaving him that long is cruel or doing him any harm. He was actually ready for bed on my return despite my sitting with him and interacting with him for a while, he's not hysterical about having been left or anything. He's just like 'oh, you're home. Great.'


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> People throw up the abuse thing as in beating or not feeding the dog.
> 
> For me with the use of a crate, I would put it in with feeding the dog too much and having it overweight. That type of abuse, that isn't intentional and the dog may be well loved, but without noticing or seeing what is happening the dog gets fat/gets left in a cage for hours.


Eh? So people who use crates dont know when x amount of hours is too many for their dog to be left? Im not sure if thats what your saying or not? Please could you clarify?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> No I didn't, there have been a number of posts here comparing it, saying oh we must be as bad as those who don't feed or beat their dogs, I've read them over the course of the thread. I am calling nobody stupid, that is something you have come up with.
> 
> Yes, I agree neglect and abuse comes in those terms too, but also in a cage too and I think it can be quite easy to not see that abuse as much, because the dog is asleep, because it will go in on it's own accord and so on. A cage restricts movement of an animal for hours, I don't think it is fair to the animal.
> 
> Obviously there is something behind this, these government's have come up with the law for a good reason.


You might think it's quite easy but what experience do you have crating dogs?

There must be something in it as these governments come up with law for a good reason? Really? They can't enforce it so how is it good? We have a dog license law it's useless does nothing and isn't enforced. BSL useless does nothing not enforced unless a complaint is made in fact studies show that dog bites have risen since the law...


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

MrsZee said:


> As situations and dogs vary, we would all benefit from each other´s experiences, and find solutions to our problems. As a result the dogs might end up having crates with an open door, or even less time in a crate. Would that be possible? Could be put our own emotional reactions aside and focus on the well being of our dogs?


Well being of my dog WAS my consideration. How do you teach a dog not to chew when you're not home to do anything about it? I'd much rather confine for a couple of hours than shock them, scare them with pots and pans set to fall and all the other "solutions" I've seen to chewing issues. Rupert was crated when we went out up to the day he died because he was a problem chewer. And if several behaviourists and trainers who saw him in person couldn't solve the issue I highly doubt it's going to be solved on a forum. Spen was crated during a destructive phase to prevent it becoming a habit. A dog proof room probably would have worked for him but moving literally everything out of a room every time you go out is a royal pain in the backside and I'm afraid I've never had a room I could simply keep dog proof all the time.

I have never locked my dog in a crate because I can't be bothered training or interacting with him. The crate has been a training aid and/or a management tool for my dogs safety.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> Obviously there is something behind this, these government's have come up with the law for a good reason.


I don't know about your governments, but mine sure don't have "good" reasons for coming up with some of the laws they come up with!
The whole banning of pit bulls in the UK was a great law too that had good reason for being implemented didn't it? /sarcasm.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Dogloverlou said:


> *What is wrong with crating a dog though for a few hours to have time to yourself? I don't think of new parent's going on date nights/having quality time together without their baby as cruel and the same applies for those leaving dogs for some quality time to yourself. Frankly, for new puppy owners having a shower/attending to daily chores is made much easier if you can simply contain the puppy whilst you get on with what you've got to do. Anyone who has tried getting on with things with a puppy under your feet, getting into everything and generally causing mayhem can attest to the fact it's much quicker to simply leave pup in it's crate for an hour or so.*
> 
> And whilst on the subject of leaving dogs alone for long periods. I was out for 6 hours yesterday evening, getting back at around 10.30ish, spent half an hour or so with Cash on returning before heading to bed, where he was left alone again for another 8/9 hours. He wasn't crated, but is kept in the hallway and kitchen. I don't believe for one minute that leaving him that long is cruel or doing him any harm. He was actually ready for bed on my return despite my sitting with him and interacting with him for a while, he's not hysterical about having been left or anything. He's just like 'oh, you're home. Great.'


Yup, exactly. Or are we expected to be with our puppies/dogs 24/7? I'll take a bath or shower or pop out for a bit and put the puppy in it's crate and nope, I'm not gonna feel guilty about it! honestly, some of those posts on here suggest puppies should never be crated for "convenience", but short of having no life I don't see how that is achievable. I've had the best part of 3 weeks off with my lot settling in the puppy and honestly, I'm glad to be going back to work and having a bit of normality!


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> No I didn't, there have been a number of posts here comparing it, saying oh we must be as bad as those who don't feed or beat their dogs, I've read them over the course of the thread. I am calling nobody stupid, that is something you have come up with.
> 
> Yes, I agree neglect and abuse comes in those terms too, but also in a cage too and I think it can be quite easy to not see that abuse as much, because the dog is asleep, because it will go in on it's own accord and so on. A cage restricts movement of an animal for hours, I don't think it is fair to the animal.
> 
> Obviously there is something behind this, these government's have come up with the law for a good reason.


Im actually not sure it is for a good reason. Those who abuse their dog (and I dont JUST mean physical abuse, nor did anyone else on here just mean physical, its just thats the example they gave) are likely to do it in MANY ways, as an example you used, perhaps over feeding etc..
What you may find is the dogs that didnt destroy things in their crates and now do (not sure when the law came into play) when their owns arent home are now sent to rescues or because their owners cant take anymore of their homes being wrecked and they may not be able to afford 1-1 behaviourist.
I know it was a crate which saved my sanity with Molly upto her being about 3 years old. We did have a behaviourist but the crate worked wonders and it helped me be happy again in many ways and not dread getting up in a morning or coming home from the shop for fear of what she had chewed!


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> You might think it's quite easy but what experience do you have crating dogs?
> 
> There must be something in it as these governments come up with law for a good reason? Really? They can't enforce it so how is it good? We have a dog license law it's useless does nothing and isn't enforced. BSL useless does nothing not enforced unless a complaint is made in fact studies show that dog bites have risen since the law...


Thankfully I have none, we've never crated any dog. We did have an Aunt's dog stay for a few months who came with a crate, but she never wanted to go in it and chose to sleep on the sofa.
I am going on what I see and hear, as I said if dogs are crated overnight, that's eight hours, so at least a third of a day spent in a cage, so that's overuse for me. So that's what I mean by 'easy'.

Ah, but I didn't say it's a good law, I said they had good reason to create the law, so it is not a baseless law, there is something behind it, I do not think it easily enforceable though or a good law, but at least it is a step in the right direction.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Doggiedelight said:


> Im actually not sure it is for a good reason. Those who abuse their dog, and I dont JUST mean physical abuse, nor did anyone else on here just mean physical, its just thats the example they gave, Are likely to do it in MANY ways, as an example you used, perhaps over feeding etc..
> What you may find is the dogs that didnt destroy things in their crates and now do (not sure when the law came into play) when their owns arent home are now sent to rescues are thrown out onto the streets because their owners cant take anymore of their homes being wrecked and they may not be able to afford 1-1 behaviourist.
> I know it was a crate which saves my sanity with Molly upto her being about 3 yeara old. We did have a behaviourist but the crate worked wonders!


Why would they abuse them in many ways?
I have seen countless dogs in the vets who are abused in no other way, but are grossly overweight. You can abuse a dog in just one way, sometimes without even realising it, I believe overfeeding and crate use are just two prime examples.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

labradrk said:


> Yup, exactly. Or are we expected to be with our puppies/dogs 24/7? I'll take a bath or shower or pop out for a bit and put the puppy in it's crate and nope, I'm not gonna feel guilty about it! honestly, some of those posts on here suggest puppies should never be crated for "convenience", but short of having no life I don't see how that is achievable. I've had the best part of 3 weeks off with my lot settling in the puppy and honestly, I'm glad to be going back to work and having a bit of normality!


I don't feel guilty leaving Cash either and think of it as valuable time apart on both our parts. A dog has to learn to be apart from it's owner too, and hell, I still appreciate getting to bed/going out for a few hours and having 'normality' time 

I think it's a good point that others have raised, how do you safely leave a dog alone who is known to be destructive? People can't honestly think that completely puppy proofing a room is a feasible option, so what next bar a crate?? Haven't really seen that question answered.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Thankfully I have none, we've never crated any dog. We did have an Aunt's dog stay for a few months who came with a crate, but she never wanted to go in it and chose to sleep on the sofa.
> I am going on what I see and hear, as I said if dogs are crated overnight, that's eight hours, so at least a third of a day spent in a cage, so that's overuse for me. So that's what I mean by 'easy'.
> 
> Ah, but I didn't say it's a good law, I said they had good reason to create the law, so it is not a baseless law, there is something behind it, I do not think it easily enforceable though or a good law, but at least it is a step in the right direction.


How is crating a dog for 8 hours different than leaving a dog shut away in the kitchen for the same time though? Is it just the space issue you're not comfortable with in regards to a crate?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Meezey said:


> See the two curled up sleeping? He couldn't be trusted not to chase when alone...


You know, this brings up another issue. 
It seems that some people think that if a dog can't be trusted on his own there is something wrong with the dog, or the training?
Is there something "wrong" with a dog who will kill a cat?

Is there something "wrong" with a puppy who eats walls, floorboards, rips up carpeting?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Thankfully I have none, we've never crated any dog. We did have an Aunt's dog stay for a few months who came with a crate, but she never wanted to go in it and chose to sleep on the sofa.
> I am going on what I see and hear, as I said if dogs are crated overnight, that's eight hours, so at least a third of a day spent in a cage, so that's overuse for me. So that's what I mean by 'easy'.
> 
> Ah, but I didn't say it's a good law, I said they had good reason to create the law, so it is not a baseless law, there is something behind it, I do not think it easily enforceable though or a good law, but at least it is a step in the right direction.


So you are making judgements about people and things you have never experienced yourself? I also love how 8 hours is how much every dog owner sleeps. No sweeping generalisations at all....


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Thankfully I have none, we've never crated any dog. We did have an Aunt's dog stay for a few months who came with a crate, but she never wanted to go in it and chose to sleep on the sofa.
> I am going on what I see and hear, as I said if dogs are crated overnight, that's eight hours, so at least a third of a day spent in a cage, so that's overuse for me. So that's what I mean by 'easy'.
> 
> Ah, but I didn't say it's a good law, I said they had good reason to create the law, so it is not a baseless law, there is something behind it, I do not think it easily enforceable though or a good law, but at least it is a step in the right direction.


Well that's assuming that firstly they're used overnight and secondly that their overnight is that long.

Generally I go to bed around 2 and other household members are up at 6, I know other people who have their dog in their rooms overnight.

So there isn't a hard or fast time that you can assume dogs are in them.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Meezey said:


> So you are making judgements about people and things you have never experienced yourself? I also love how 8 hours is how much every dog owner sleeps. No sweeping generalisations at all....


Haha yep, 8 hours sounds like an absolute dream! I wish! try 6 hours if I'm lucky and a 6am wakeup and nope, the puppy isn't crated overnight!


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

labradrk said:


> Haha yep, 8 hours sounds like an absolute dream! I wish! try 6 hours if I'm lucky and a 6am wakeup and nope, the puppy isn't crated overnight!


I don't think I have ever slept 8 hours normal would be 5 or 6 if I am lucky, 05:30 starts week days and weekends too, if I sleep later at weekends means I've been a rebel and stayed up later than 12 the night before!!!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Dogloverlou said:


> I think it's a good point that others have raised, how do you safely leave a dog alone who is known to be destructive? People can't honestly think that completely puppy proofing a room is a feasible option, so what next bar a crate?? Haven't really seen that question answered.


I think the sad thing is that there is an option to a crate and its rehoming the dog and pushing the problem onto someone else. And yet you are horrible and abusive if you choose to keep your dog and use a crate to help with the problem!
Its a funny old world, isnt it!?


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Dogloverlou said:


> I don't feel guilty leaving Cash either and think of it as valuable time apart on both our parts. A dog has to learn to be apart from it's owner too, and hell, I still appreciate getting to bed/going out for a few hours and having 'normality' time
> 
> I think it's a good point that others have raised, how do you safely leave a dog alone who is known to be destructive? People can't honestly think that completely puppy proofing a room is a feasible option, so what next bar a crate?? Haven't really seen that question answered.


Sheikh my GSD was in a hall way as a puppy, he ate through a wall twice ( again many seem to think dogs that chew just chew as they are bored) he removed a few skirting boards too. How do you teach a dog not to chew if you are not there?


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

ouesi said:


> You know, this brings up another issue.
> It seems that some people think that if a dog can't be trusted on his own there is something wrong with the dog, or the training?
> Is there something "wrong" with a dog who will kill a cat?
> 
> Is there something "wrong" with a puppy who eats walls, floorboards, rips up carpeting?


The cats and puppy chewiness were why I had a crate from the outset....because they're fairly normal things to anticipate having to manage, but in my case, yes, there is something wrong with Brock, lots of something's, lol.

Personally given the choice, I'd get rid of his crate, not because I think there's anything wrong with using it or that I think he's in it too long, just purely because it's a PITA, it's huge, it takes up loads of space, attracts fur and dirt underneath it and because it's got a blanket on top people use the top of it as a dumping ground.

But he chews, so he needs someone with him, no amount of training or all the things I do to keep him occupied or providing a huge variety of suitable things for chewing has made him any less chewy, I can't make other arrangements because of the behavioural issues (my OH has a job which lends itself fine to taking a dog along if I'm going to be out for instance) - I could put him in his kennel, but he's happy in his crate and unhappy outside.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> What is wrong with crating a dog though for a few hours to have time to yourself? I don't think of new parent's going on date nights/having quality time together without their baby as cruel and the same applies for those leaving dogs for some quality time to yourself. Frankly, for new puppy owners having a shower/attending to daily chores is made much easier if you can simply contain the puppy whilst you get on with what you've got to do. Anyone who has tried getting on with things with a puppy under your feet, getting into everything and generally causing mayhem can attest to the fact it's much quicker to simply leave pup in it's crate for an hour or so.
> 
> And whilst on the subject of leaving dogs alone for long periods. I was out for 6 hours yesterday evening, getting back at around 10.30ish, spent half an hour or so with Cash on returning before heading to bed, where he was left alone again for another 8/9 hours. He wasn't crated, but is kept in the hallway and kitchen. I don't believe for one minute that leaving him that long is cruel or doing him any harm. He was actually ready for bed on my return despite my sitting with him and interacting with him for a while, he's not hysterical about having been left or anything. He's just like 'oh, you're home. Great.'


I was out yesterday evening too. The plan was to pop home and walk the dogs then go back out to a party but I had come down with a lurgy so I stayed home and went to bed and missed the party. If I had to crate my dogs there would have been no question of going out twice. A huge difference between leaving the dogs the run of downstairs and shutting them in a crate - though both are crate trained.



ouesi said:


> You know, this brings up another issue.
> It seems that some people think that if a dog can't be trusted on his own there is something wrong with the dog, or the training?
> Is there something "wrong" with a dog who will kill a cat?
> 
> Is there something "wrong" with a puppy who eats walls, floorboards, rips up carpeting?


erm, I would not own a cat with the poodles as they are dreadful with cats. Their freedom in the house is more important to me than owning a cat. I have not had a ripping up dog for a while and I think when I did I put up with it up to a point but dogs were kennelled when I was out. Two large sheds with a dog door between them and a long run. More than one dog so they had company and were safe.



labradrk said:


> Haha yep, 8 hours sounds like an absolute dream! I wish! try 6 hours if I'm lucky and a 6am wakeup and nope, the puppy isn't crated overnight!


I am a 10 hour person but luckily my husband goes to be later than me.



catz4m8z said:


> I think the sad thing is that there is an option to a crate and its rehoming the dog and pushing the problem onto someone else. And yet you are horrible and abusive if you choose to keep your dog and use a crate to help with the problem!
> Its a funny old world, isnt it!?


I think it depends on how and for how long you crate. Just keeping the dog for the sake of it cos it can be shoved in a crate and not actually cause you a problem certainly is abusive. Someone else might have a lifestyle that means the dog never has to be crated - so would that not be better for the dog. Or if its quality of life is really impinged on and there is not the option to rehome then maybe it is better to call it a day.
I had a standard poodle that I bred who was not a farm dog in her brain. She wanted one to one, she did constant runners when out with me when I was working. So I could easily have kept her, she would have been tied up or shut up most of the day for her safety and she would have had to share us with the other dogs. I found a lovely family who lived on the outskirts of the local town, were very dog minded and wanted a family dog. So I rehomed her and she had a wonderful life. Surely that is the responsible thing to do.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> If the Finnish government is trying to make things like puppy farms illegal by outlawing crating, why not say, "in order to make it easier to prosecute puppy farms and pet stores, crating for long periods is now illegal"?
> But that's not what happened.
> Instead the thread became about owners who are crating in the best interest of their dogs and the other pets in their homes.


I don't look at it that simply. It's a tool, just as a lot of legalities which may be used to prosecute. Are you suggesting you make life even more difficult to prosecute abuse? Crates have their use when used responsibly. However crates can and are used as people can't be bothered, it's easy. They can also be used to punish, again not a responsible use for them. Benny originally comes from a home where he was crated all day. Not as he couldn't be left alone, simply it was convenient.

Wonder what statistics are available which show crate use, responsible vs otherwise. Sure, majority if not all on this forum are likely to use crates responsibly.. what about generally?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Must admit that I agree dogs should not be left alone all day long and walk and all.night long on their own even in kennel or pet room.
> At least they should have been with other dogs? Say it happens to packs of hunting or racing dogs...
> If your dog is to be alone 22 or 23 out of 24 hours time to think about dog day care or dog sharing.
> 
> ...


Ah, so now one cannot even have a single dog, one has to have more than one, even of course you cannot afford the time, money or space?


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I think the sad thing is that there is an option to a crate and its rehoming the dog and pushing the problem onto someone else. And yet you are horrible and abusive if you choose to keep your dog and use a crate to help with the problem!
> Its a funny old world, isnt it!?


I think there is the point that for someone else the dog may not be a problem at all. 
Is it helping the problem at all, or just hiding the problem and locking it away so it is no longer there.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

People said that we need no laws telling people how to raise one's dog. How do you think police etc can deal with dog abuse, if there were no laws to support rescue work? Just saying pretty please? Odd how in some threads, when you read about a abused dog so many cry for harder punishment? I am one of them. How could that happen, if there was no legislation to protect an animal? Even with the law it is difficult, without it impossible This law was aimed to protect a dog, not the owner.I guess we trust our laws still, e.g. dangerous dog acts didn´t get through here, as the same people behind it thought it was not good. Funny, how a law, which is based on the same research of a dog's well being is automatically condemned, when it questioned some people's habit of using a crate.

Most of PF members agreed though, that it never even occurs to them to keep their dogs in a crate for hours. And that is what the law is about. Finnish Kennel club strongly opposes using crates for any other than medical purpose, they even suggest only then, when a vet suggests it, you could use a crate. With rescue dogs/ problem dogs for training purposes, in places that cannot be secured (like when traveling) use of a crate for temporary time use of crate is also allowed. Use of a crate for puppy training is something I would not judge automatically, as it is a training phase. Still most manage without a crate. Using a crate is a question of a size of the area, a dog needs to move about, when it wants. Bathroom is not much better either, true and all sorts abuse take Place, with or without crate. But that is not the issue here, it is crating a dog for hours without a good reason on a every day basis,

What I find very strange is that not one of those, who use a crate, asked why the vets thought it is an abuse to use a crate for a long time. Why there is a law against using a crate for long time? Just for fun? Maybe there is really a good reason behind this? Wouldn´t it be good know? Or maybe this is something that the answer would be not what some would like to hear.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> So you are making judgements about people and things you have never experienced yourself? I also love how 8 hours is how much every dog owner sleeps. No sweeping generalisations at all....


Well, yes, most things that people see as potentially abusive they have opinions on without having done them themselves.
I have opinions on overfeeding without having actually done it, the same with many things, as I am guessing we all do. 
People make judgements about choke chains without using them too.

It wasn't a sweeping generalisation , it's average, the average person sleeps eight hours, but then again, it's not all about sleep, people may not sleep eight hours, but go up to bed earlier anyway.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> I think there is the point that for someone else the dog may not be a problem at all.
> Is it helping the problem at all, or just hiding the problem and locking it away so it is no longer there.


Wow... some of the comments on this thread...

Guys... what ever happened to compassion for other dog owners doing the best they can with incredibly difficult situations?
There but for the grace of something go all of us. Best not to climb too high up on that high horse, the fall is long and the ground is hard.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

MrsZee said:


> With respect, Ouesi, I do know that a it is better for a dog to be able to move about than not. If a dog spends most of his time in a crate, it is better off in a kennel. T believe you agree with this too. But we are not talking about the extreme situations, are we, but about crating for a few hour regularly, as in your friend´s case, and finding a solution to it. Dogs I see at vets, petshops, hairdresses etc. typically have a space behind the desk, which simply has a gate at both ends.
> 
> *A dog is still confined as it is in a crate*
> 
> ...


Again you are assuming that the one bedroom for EVERYONE would have room for a bed, a wardrobe, chest of drawers AND a partition to give a dog plenty of room to wander and play.

That is not the case in MY bedroom, living room or kitchen!

But I know, I should not have dogs, all of mine must have led a miserable existence but were incredible actors to others, putting on a show just for them when deep inside they needed therapy................ sigh.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Goblin said:


> I don't look at it that simply. It's a tool, just as a lot of legalities which may be used to prosecute. Are you suggesting you make life even more difficult to prosecute abuse? Crates have their use when used responsibly. However crates can and are used as people can't be bothered, it's easy. They can also be used to punish, again not a responsible use for them. Benny originally comes from a home where he was crated all day. Not as he couldn't be left alone, simply it was convenient.
> 
> Wonder what statistics are available which show crate use, responsible vs otherwise. Sure, majority if not all on this forum are likely to use crates responsibly.. what about generally?


KT came from a home where she was kennelled or shut in the conservatory all day not because she couldn't be left alone but because it was convenient, she had very little contact with people, as they were allowed in the lounge etc. What the difference in that and a crate, is it acceptable because she had other dogs and could walk about?

Wonder what statistics are about which show kennel use, room use garden use, shed use free run use responsible v otherwise


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> I think there is the point that for someone else the dog may not be a problem at all.
> Is it helping the problem at all, or just hiding the problem and locking it away so it is no longer there.


Really wow better hope your ivory tower doesn't come clattering round you Missus your setting your high horse up pretty high! Again there but for the grace of God and all that! Best hope you keep getting perfect dogs hey!


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Considering that generally, dogs average around 17/18 hours of sleep a day, I dont see how shutting them in a crate when they technically should be asleep anyway is abuse? I have never crate trained my dogs per se but they have been in crates. They are crated in the car, Jessie was crated when in season to separate her from the boys (who were neutered anyway) and I bought a crate for Flynn when he was a puppy to keep him and Jed apart until I knew they were ok with each other. Apart from the car where cages are for safety, I dont even own a crate anymore, havent had one for years.

I dont have any objection to them anyway. It's pretty much like anything, as long as the dog is well cared for with regards to vet treatment, nutrition, exercise etc and lives a fairly fulfilled life, I dont see how they can be cruel. There is always more we could do for our dogs, but we all do our best and the way I look at it is, there are far worse lives they could be leading.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MrsZee said:


> People said that we need no laws telling people how to raise one's dog. How do you think police etc can deal with dog abuse, if there were no laws to support rescue work? Just saying pretty please? Odd how in some threads, when you read about a abused dog so many cry for harder punishment? I am one of them. How could that happen, if there was no legislation to protect an animal? Even with the law it is difficult, without it impossible This law was aimed to protect a dog, not the owner.I guess we trust our laws still, e.g. dangerous dog acts didn´t get through here, as the same people behind it thought it was not good. Funny, how a law, which is based on the same research of a dog's well being is automatically condemned, when it questioned some people's habit of using a crate.
> 
> Most of PF members agreed though, that it never even occurs to them to keep their dogs in a crate for hours. And that is what the law is about. Finnish Kennel club strongly opposes using crates for any other than medical purpose, they even suggest only then, when a vet suggests it, you could use a crate. With rescue dogs/ problem dogs for training purposes, in places that cannot be secured (like when traveling) use of a crate for temporary time use of crate is also allowed. Use of a crate for puppy training is something I would not judge automatically, as it is a training phase. Still most manage without a crate. Using a crate is a question of a size of the area, a dog needs to move about, when it wants. Bathroom is not much better either, true and all sorts abuse take Place, with or without crate. But that is not the issue here, it is crating a dog for hours without a good reason on a every day basis,
> 
> What I find very strange is that not one of those, who use a crate, asked why the vets thought it is an abuse to use a crate for a long time. Why there is a law against using a crate for long time? Just for fun? Maybe there is really a good reason behind this? Wouldn´t it be good know? Or maybe this is something that the answer would be not what some would like to hear.


Vets tell me raw is dangerous! When I want medical advise I go to my Vet! Other than that I will go to those who are experts in their field...


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

MrsZee said:


> People said that we need no laws telling people how to raise one's dog. How do you think police etc can deal with dog abuse, if there were no laws to support rescue work? Just saying pretty please? Odd how in some threads, when you read about a abused dog so many cry for harder punishment? I am one of them. How could that happen, if there was no legislation to protect an animal? Even with the law it is difficult, without it impossible This law was aimed to protect a dog, not the owner.I guess we trust our laws still, e.g. dangerous dog acts didn´t get through here, as the same people behind it thought it was not good. Funny, how a law, which is based on the same research of a dog's well being is automatically condemned, when it questioned some people's habit of using a crate.
> 
> Most of PF members agreed though, that it never even occurs to them to keep their dogs in a crate for hours. And that is what the law is about. Finnish Kennel club strongly opposes using crates for any other than medical purpose, they even suggest only then, when a vet suggests it, you could use a crate. With rescue dogs/ problem dogs for training purposes, in places that cannot be secured (like when traveling) use of a crate for temporary time use of crate is also allowed. Use of a crate for puppy training is something I would not judge automatically, as it is a training phase. Still most manage without a crate. Using a crate is a question of a size of the area, a dog needs to move about, when it wants. Bathroom is not much better either, true and all sorts abuse take Place, with or without crate. But that is not the issue here, it is crating a dog for hours without a good reason on a every day basis,
> 
> What I find very strange is that not one of those, who use a crate, asked why the vets thought it is an abuse to use a crate for a long time. Why there is a law against using a crate for long time? Just for fun? Maybe there is really a good reason behind this? Wouldn´t it be good know? Or maybe this is something that the answer would be not what some would like to hear.


But the law isn't stating an acceptable length of time, if it only allows for medical reasons and travelling etc, my use of it is then considered abuse.

I don't agree that it is, nor do I agree that it is abusive in the way it's used as described by other posters on this thread.

Whether it then gets abusive after a certain time is kind of irrelevant if the use of a crate is considered abuse outside of a few very specific circumstances.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> What I find very strange is that not one of those, who use a crate, asked why the vets thought it is an abuse to use a crate for a long time. Why there is a law against using a crate for long time? Just for fun? Maybe there is really a good reason behind this? Wouldn´t it be good know? Or maybe this is something that the answer would be not what some would like to hear.


Probably because it doesn't take a vet's opinion to figure out that excessive crating is not good for dogs. We know that.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Really wow better home your ivory tower doesn't come clattering round you Missus your setting your high horse up pretty high!!!!


Yeah okay then.
I didn't say my home, but some dogs may be better off in another home then just kept in a cage most of it's life, just so it can be kept. What's the point? It's not a life I would wish for my dogs, if I had to keep my dog locked in a cage for most of the day, yes I would seek another home for it, no doubt. For me no animal should be locked up in a cage like that.

I don't live in an ivory tower thanks, I try not to take on more then I can handle and do my best.
Is it an ivory tower if these laws actually agree with my own opinions?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> The bolded bit - is that a joke. Read it carefully and think about the tone of the majority of your posts.
> 
> I cannot see what has been emboldened, pray tell, do let me know what I need to read carefully and what I need to think about the tone of the majority of my posts love.
> 
> ...


I am glad there is the new law in Scotland, personally I think there should be ZERO tolerance regarding driving and alcohol. Too many people actually DIE every year due to alcohol related driving deaths.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Yeah okay then.
> I didn't say my home, but some dogs may be better off in another home then just kept in a cage most of it's life, just so it can be kept. What's the point? It's not a life I would wish for my dogs, if I had to keep my dog locked in a cage for most of the day, yes I would seek another home for it, no doubt. For me no animal should be locked up in a cage like that.
> 
> I don't live in an ivory tower thanks, I try not to take on more then I can handle and do my best.
> Is it an ivory tower if these laws actually agree with my own opinions?


But again, it's not being crated for most of the day, or any set time...it's at all other than under medical advice or for travelling.

So if you agree with that, what you're agreeing with is that me crating my dog for 4 hours at night and the odd couple of hours maybe three times a week during the day is abusive.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> It wasn't a sweeping generalisation , it's average, the average person sleeps eight hours, but then again, it's not all about sleep, people may not sleep eight hours, but go up to bed earlier anyway.


Well it was given the responses!!!

Going to bed early to read!! You mean like this?








Just shocking the abuse these crated dogs go tthrough when I go to watch a film or read in bed!!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Just out of interest, how many have actually read the law in this case or the guidelines when applying it?

When it comes to the difference between a room and a crate. If you do not know the difference, lock yourself for a day in each  Maybe then you would be able to tell the difference. 

How does the court prove an individual use of a crate is cruelty when someone has to say is any of the arguments currently stated for responsible use. How would a prosecutor prove otherwise? I doubt if any cruelty case rests simply on use of a crate, it would be one of a multiple of factors. In this case a blanket ruling along with additional evidence simplifies matters.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Yeah okay then.
> I didn't say my home, but some dogs may be better off in another home then just kept in a cage most of it's life, just so it can be kept. What's the point? It's not a life I would wish for my dogs, if I had to keep my dog locked in a cage for most of the day, yes I would seek another home for it, no doubt. For me no animal should be locked up in a cage like that.
> 
> I don't live in an ivory tower thanks, I try not to take on more then I can handle and do my best.
> Is it an ivory tower if these laws actually agree with my own opinions?


As do we all but guess what shit happens and we all deal with it the best way we can for everyone involved dogs and people...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I do not see any irony in it at all. If crates are used correctly they are not abuse, if check chains and correction is used correctly it is not abuse, if e collars are used correctly they are not abuse. Used incorrectly all of them COULD be abuse. It just makes me laugh that on here there are many that say it is fine to keep your dog crated but it is not ok to train your dog by methods that work easily and quickly when used correctly . That is ironic if you want something to be. Why is it ok to say 'I know I use a crate a lot but my dogs do not mind it and it is necessary for their well being. But at the same time it is immensely cruel to train a dog in a way that both handler and dog are very happy with and which produces a happy well rounded dog because I do not approve of it'
> In fact the dog I was giving as an example was 43 years ago before the days of crates and when most dogs were trained with check chains. Although I have nothing against them on the right dog with the right handler I actually stopped using them on my dogs in 1975 because I preferred half checks or flat collars and stopped recommending them for other dogs not long after because too many owners use them incorrectly. My current dogs are in flat collars all the time but if I met someone using a check or half check correctly I would not criticise them for their choice. Horses for courses and not one fits all.


Ah but you see many people say there is NO "correct" way to use a check chain.

Many people (and governments) will say there is NO "correct" way to use an e-collar.

As for "correction" that is just a euphemism for punishment.

Again it is all down to personal opinion.

Do we need a law regarding the use of check chains?

Many people would say yes.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Goblin said:


> Just out of interest, how many have actually read the law in this case or the guidelines when applying it?
> 
> When it comes to the difference between a room and a crate. If you do not know the difference, lock yourself for a day in each. Maybe then you would be able to tell the difference.


And ignoring a dog and giving it quality time is the same be it in a room or a crate.. Try it and maybe you'd be able to tell the difference!! Being neglected is being neglected!


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Ok just back from dropping Kenzie off at the SPCA. It's sad but at least she won't be in a crate overnight. It will be a much better life for her, now she's not being abused. I was a crappy owner anyway.....


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Just out of interest, how many have actually read the law in this case or the guidelines when applying it?
> 
> When it comes to the difference between a room and a crate. If you do not know the difference, lock yourself for a day in each. Maybe then you would be able to tell the difference.


Because all rooms are created of equal size, aren't they? my pup sleeps in my room at night at the moment and the amount of room she has is actually SMALLER than her crate which is downstairs. Go figure....


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

emmaviolet said:


> Yeah okay then.
> I didn't say my home, but some dogs may be better off in another home then just kept in a cage most of it's life, just so it can be kept. What's the point? It's not a life I would wish for my dogs, if I had to keep my dog locked in a cage for most of the day, yes I would seek another home for it, no doubt. For me no animal should be locked up in a cage like that.
> 
> I don't live in an ivory tower thanks, I try not to take on more then I can handle and do my best.
> Is it an ivory tower if these laws actually agree with my own opinions?


Let me paint you a hypothetical picture that could very easily be reality:
You have a lovely dog, he's well trained, well socialized, to the point that you realize you are now comfortable getting a second dog. 
You go to a breeder, get a well bred puppy. The older dog does wonderfully with the puppy, and things are great. However as the puppy reaches social maturity the squabbles start, you intervene, get help from behaviorists, yet the fighting has now escalated to the point that the dogs are doing each other damage. The breeder offers to take the puppy (now dog) back. But in the breeder's home the dog is just as bad, if not worse because instead of one dog to contend with, it's many. You decide against returning the dog to the breeder and continue to work with him hoping that once the dog matures more things will settle. But they don't and only get worse. You are now living a life of crate and rotate. Your sweet puppy is a mature adult who is great with humans but simply does not get along at all with any other dog. Your choices are now either crate and rotate for life or find him a new home.
The breeder's home isn't an option as already described, but the breeder is supportive and aids you in trying to find a new home. Unfortunately, no one wants a dog who cannot be with any other dogs, and those who come to the breeder looking for a dog don't want one with issues. The breeder is well connected through rescue as well, yet no one looking for a rescue dog wants your breed of dog with issues. 
While you wait for a home to materialize, the dog is still living with you, still living crate and rotate. Which is difficult for you but better than the alternative where the dogs will literally tear each other up.

You then decide that maybe it might be easier to find a home for your first dog, though it breaks your heart, perhaps this one might have a better chance. However, this dog is now much older, on daily medication, and not surprisingly there are no people clamoring to own an older dog with a prescription requirement who may or may not get along with other dogs.

So you're still looking for a home for either of your dogs, and in the meantime the dogs in your care are on crate and rotate.

This is the reality for some owners. Which is why I say, there but for the grace of something go any of us.

If you haven't experienced this sort of hardship in owning dogs congratulations, count yourself lucky, not smug.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Wow... some of the comments on this thread...
> 
> Guys... what ever happened to compassion for other dog owners doing the best they can with incredibly difficult situations?
> There but for the grace of something go all of us. Best not to climb too high up on that high horse, the fall is long and the ground is hard.


I guess my response is where is the compassion for the dogs who spend most of their lives in a cage?

It is true that some dogs who are kept in a cage because of problems can be a different dog in another home. As I said I met a problem Atika this morning who was a perfect dog with his new life and owner, doesn't chew his house up, isn't reactive any more and is a wonderful dog. The same dog who was unable to live with his previous owner unless the kept him in a cage. Sometimes where people are home during the day, or without other pets or just different chemistry.

I agree, there for the grace go I, but I would like to think that should I get into an extreme situation such as I was talking about, I would try to change the dogs life for them and not for me to hang on if I really felt it wasn't best for my dog.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Let me paint you a hypothetical picture that could very easily be reality:
> You have a lovely dog, he's well trained, well socialized, to the point that you realize you are now comfortable getting a second dog.
> You go to a breeder, get a well bred puppy. The older dog does wonderfully with the puppy, and things are great. However as the puppy reaches social maturity the squabbles start, you intervene, get help from behaviorists, yet the fighting has now escalated to the point that the dogs are doing each other damage. The breeder offers to take the puppy (now dog) back. But in the breeder's home the dog is just as bad, if not worse because instead of one dog to contend with, it's many. You decide against returning the dog to the breeder and continue to work with him hoping that once the dog matures more things will settle. But they don't and only get worse. You are now living a life of crate and rotate. Your sweet puppy is a mature adult who is great with humans but simply does not get along at all with any other dog. Your choices are now either crate and rotate for life or find him a new home.
> The breeder's home isn't an option as already described, but the breeder is supportive and aids you in trying to find a new home. Unfortunately, no one wants a dog who cannot be with any other dogs, and those who come to the breeder looking for a dog don't want one with issues. The breeder is well connected through rescue as well, yet no one looking for a rescue dog wants your breed of dog with issues.
> ...


Sorry, I'm just on the way out, not ignoring. Will read this tomorrow as I'm getting ready.
Just saw the last bit, I'm not smug at all, I really am not, it would break my heart should I ever have to rehome or think about it, or any other option. But I do believe there are situations where it maybe is an option.


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## emmaviolet (Oct 24, 2011)

Meezey said:


> As do we all but guess what shit happens and we all deal with it the best way we can for everyone involved dogs and people...


Well that's true and something we agree on anyway.


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

McKenzie said:


> Ok just back from dropping Kenzie off at the SPCA. It's sad but at least she won't be in a crate overnight. It will be a much better life for her, now she's not being abused. I was a crappy owner anyway.....


Me too, need to drop Penny off at the rspca. Poor soul. In a crate at night with fresh water, warm bed and toys. What an awful life she has.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

emmaviolet said:


> Sorry, I'm just on the way out, not ignoring. Will read this tomorrow as I'm getting ready.
> Just saw the last bit, I'm not smug at all, I really am not, it would break my heart should I ever have to rehome or think about it, or any other option. But I do believe there are situations where it maybe is an option.


Wait until you find yourself in the situation yourself before you advise others on what you think they should do, because what you say now might be very different to when you have to live the reality of it!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> Ah, so now one cannot even have a single dog, one has to have more than one, even of course you cannot afford the time, money or space?


Actually if you do not have the time, money or space I would say you should not even have one dog.



smokeybear said:


> Ah but you see many people say there is NO "correct" way to use a check chain.
> 
> Many people (and governments) will say there is NO "correct" way to use an e-collar.
> 
> ...


So why are you feeling it wrong to have a law against using crates which a lot of people feel should not be used. Docking is illegal in the UK but in England it can be done in certain cases when it is felt to be beneficial to the health of the dog just in case the dog is going to work. In Finland it sounds as if a crate can be used if it is beneficial to the health of the dog but not for the convenience of the owner. Fair enough and no more stupid than many laws we have in this country that can never be enforced but are there if they are needed.

By the way, just in case you missed it, i have used crates and I am not against their use in most normal situations. I see nothing wrong with having a law that stops people from keeping dogs in crates all the time for their own convenience.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Probably because it doesn't take a vet's opinion to figure out that excessive crating is not good for dogs. We know that.


 Do you speak for all then? Use of we was an inresting choice. But if you do speak for all, then how come some members happily tell that they use a crate when they want to, for hours as well (most don´t though, most genuinely restrict the time spend in a crate). Some already promote a crate as a general solution, like it contains no problems what so ever. I think that is dangerous as an attitude, and as a result way many dogs do end up spending a whole day in a crate.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Meezey said:


> And ignoring a dog and giving it quality time is the same be it in a room or a crate.. Try it and maybe you'd be able to tell the difference!! Being neglected is being neglected!


So now it's about neglecting a dog, not simply crating. Where have I said using a crate responsibly is a crime or cruelty? However, unlike knee jerk reactions I am prepared to not simply dismiss something simply as I do not like it and actually try to consider the pro's and con's.

Now consider part of the German animal welfare law (top level)


> may not restrict the animal's possibility of species-specific freedom of movement to such an extent as to cause the animal pain or avoidable suffering or harm;


Now, get off your high horse for a minute, presume you are a prosecutor, prosecuting a cruelty case. How do you prove a crate used caused avoidable suffering if there are no physical injuries?

Now I do not know what the Finnish situation is in reality. Like you I haven't read any of the laws or guidelines. I can see a purpose for such a regulation however, which wouldn't necessarily impact responsible crate use as let's fact it, who inspects crates in houses unless there are other reasons to suggest cruelty. Once again it comes down to enforcement.

Edit: To really judge we would probably have to not only look at the law but also instances where people have been prosecuted and if they have been found guilty or innocent of cruelty.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

emmaviolet said:


> Sorry, I'm just on the way out, not ignoring. Will read this tomorrow as I'm getting ready.
> Just saw the last bit, I'm not smug at all, I really am not, it would break my heart should I ever have to rehome or think about it, or any other option. But I do believe there are situations where it maybe is an option.


It's not an option for me though, if I thought him being in his crate was affecting his quality of life, my option would be having him PTS.

He has elbow dysplasia a spinal problem (both requiring medication), can't have NSAIDs or anything that could cause ulcers because he's already had a perforated one and he has food intolerances.

If and it's already a big if, someone was willing to take him on with all that, he's dog aggressive and aggressive to humans he doesn't know and while he adores his cats hasn't generalised that to include the ones that run outside of his house...then you have the main reason he's crated, the chewing, the only thing that successfully prevents him doing that other than a crate is someone being with him...always.

Behaviourists don't want to work with him because his major issues are medically caused and they can't work with him on chewing because they're not people he knows well enough to tolerate.

His veterinary behavioural specialist is happy with my management of him and that's all it is, management because although training is ongoing, it's too easily and often setback to really make progress.

When (and it is when as none of his health problems are curable or going to improve) his quality of life is no longer worth it for him, I will have him PTS, but being happy in a crate isn't something I'll ever consider to be affecting his quality of life.

For other people on this thread who have happy healthy (physically and mentally) dogs, why is the upheaval of rehoming to unknown circumstances preferable to a life that clearly suits them?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> Do you speak for all then? Use of we was an inresting choice.


We as in those who did not ask why vets think it is an abuse to crate for a long time. 
It doesn't take expert knowledge to know that crating for a long time is a bad idea.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Actually if you do not have the time, money or space I would say you should not even have one dog.
> 
> So why are you feeling it wrong to have a law against using crates which a lot of people feel should not be used. *Docking is illegal in the UK but in England it can be done in certain cases when it is felt to be beneficial to the health of the dog just in case the dog is going to work*. In Finland it sounds as if a crate can be used if it is beneficial to the health of the dog but not for the convenience of the owner. Fair enough and no more stupid than many laws we have in this country that can never be enforced but are there if they are needed.
> 
> By the way, just in case you missed it, i have used crates and I am not against their use in most normal situations. I see nothing wrong with having a law that stops people from keeping dogs in crates all the time for their own convenience.


Just to clarify, what you said also applies to Wales and NI, not just England. Scotland has a complete ban. Just sayin' like


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Blitz said:


> Actually if you do not have the time, money or space I would say you should not even have one dog.
> 
> So why are you feeling it wrong to have a law against using crates which a lot of people feel should not be used. Docking is illegal in the UK but in England it can be done in certain cases when it is felt to be beneficial to the health of the dog just in case the dog is going to work. In Finland it sounds as if a crate can be used if it is beneficial to the health of the dog but not for the convenience of the owner. Fair enough and no more stupid than many laws we have in this country that can never be enforced but are there if they are needed.
> 
> By the way, just in case you missed it, i have used crates and I am not against their use in most normal situations. I see nothing wrong with having a law that stops people from keeping dogs in crates all the time for their own convenience.


A law specifying x number of hours at a time, adding up to x number of hours in a 24 hr period though (for instance) isn't the same as what's being described here, and that's the sort of law you'd need to legislate for people abusing rather than using crates.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Throughout this entire thread, I don't recall anyone saying they use a crate because they WANT to.

I don't want to use a crate but if the alternative is coming home to find Rudi has electrocuted herself or chewed my kitchen units and has a huge splinter stuck in her throat, then use the crate I will.

For some, the use of a crate is the lesser of two evils and a safe option.

As humans, most of us wouldn't choose to sit in an office all day or stand in a lengthy queue for ages, but sometimes, we have to.

I believe that if a dog is loved and well cared for, given good walks and stimulation, good food and prompt Veterinary care, it is not going to suffer harm from spending some time in a crate.

Life ain't perfect, for us or our dogs.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

tabulahrasa said:


> It's not an option for me though, if I thought him being in his crate was affecting his quality of life, my option would be having him PTS.His veterinary behavioural specialist is happy with my management of him and that's all it is, management because although training is ongoing, it's too easily and often setback to really make progress.


Just to point out, If your "veterinary behavioural specialist" is "official" you would be totally covered, even in Finland


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## CavalierOwner (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm still not getting it, maybe it's because I've just eaten my Sunday dinner and in a food coma. So is the issue about how long a dogs locked away for or about them being locked in a crate? As I've said already, my crate is 4ft by 2.5ft when I was a kid our kitchen floor space was probably a similar size it was tiny, you wouldn't have been able to swing a hamster in there never mind a cat. Two people stood in there and you'd feel claustrophobic. If I lived in that house now with my 3 dogs and kept them shut in the kitchen overnight would that be ok because they are free in a room but being in a crate the same size is neglect? 

Seems people presume that everyone's crates are too small for their dogs. I really don't see a difference in whether a dog is kept in a room or crate (providing it's not to small for the dog) for say 7 hours While sleeping. Surely it's just about how long any dog is left alone for in general without human contact? A dog left alone in a room for 16 hours a day for example isn't going to be any happier than a dog left in a crate for the same amount of time is it? Anyway I'm probably rambling, I know what I mean but I'm not good at getting it out.


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Actually if you do not have the time, money or space I would say you should not even have one dog.
> 
> So why are you feeling it wrong to have a law against using crates which a lot of people feel should not be used. Docking is illegal in the UK but in England it can be done in certain cases when it is felt to be beneficial to the health of the dog just in case the dog is going to work. In Finland it sounds as if a crate can be used if it is beneficial to the health of the dog but not for the convenience of the owner. Fair enough and no more stupid than many laws we have in this country that can never be enforced but are there if they are needed.
> 
> By the way, just in case you missed it, i have used crates and I am not against their use in most normal situations. I see nothing wrong with having a law that stops people from keeping dogs in crates all the time for their own convenience.


Hi Blitz.

I dont really think "a lot of people feel crates should not be used".
I think the general census seems to be crates as long as used correctly arent bad at all. I do understand crates can be abused. As can anything. I do understand there will be people who dont like the idea of using them. However my own feeling and my understanding of many others from how I perceive from reading this thread is that when used and not abused then crates are a good thing for owner and dog alike.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Goblin said:


> So now it's about neglecting a dog, not simply crating. Where have I said using a crate responsibly is a crime or cruelty? However, unlike knee jerk reactions I am prepared to not simply dismiss something simply as I do not like it and actually try to consider the pro's and con's.
> 
> Now consider part of the German animal welfare law (top level)
> 
> ...


Unlike you I have read the Laws and guidelines quite easy to do so, given people ask about laws and guide line's before moving to a country.

People wouldn't get on their high horse if others stopped making sweeping comments! I am well aware of the difference between a crate and room so don't make out you are after a serious debate after making petty comments! Crates can be large rooms can be small.

Have you not read this thread the whole premise is purely if you leave a dog in a crate its cruel and abusive, yet if it's in a room ( no size mentioned by the anti crate brigade) or a kennel its perfectly fine!

So no consideration would be given to a chi in a 54 inch crate and a mastiff in a 4ft by 4ft run!

No consideration to a dog being in a 6ft enclosure all day with no walks or interaction just having its food thrown at it.

No consideration to dogs left often days in a house given free run.

Purely down to if you use a crate often and its not for medical use you are cruel and you are abusing your dog and it is better off in a home ..


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sweety said:


> Throughout this entire thread, I don't recall anyone saying they use a crate because they WANT to.
> 
> I don't want to use a crate but if the alternative is coming home to find Rudi has electrocuted herself or chewed my kitchen units and has a huge splinter stuck in her throat, then use the crate I will.
> 
> ...


I personally don't see a problem should an owner use a crate because they want to though, either  As long as it's gone about the right way and the dog is otherwise happy, then there really is no need for anyone to feel guilty that they prefer crating their dog for whatever reason.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Just to point out, If your "veterinary behavioural specialist" is "official" you would be totally covered, even in Finland


She's officially a vet with a specialism in canine behaviour...but while she knows he's crate trained and that I use one, it isn't part of his treatment or even particularly his training and management plan.

That is how I choose to restrain him from visitors usually because he's happy in there, but mostly it's used when he's left to prevent chewing, which isn't what she's ever worked on.

His other issues are more pressing.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Meezey said:


> Unlike you I have read the Laws and guidelines quite easy to do so, given people ask about laws and guide line's before moving to a country.


Well as an expat, in a different country I can tell you what you read and how things actually work are different  Please point to the detailed, translated Finnish Laws, the prosecution guidelines as well as case examples for cases of animal abuse due to the use of crates as they are quite easy to get hold of.



> Have you not read this thread the whole premise is purely if you leave a dog in a crate its cruel and abusive, yet if it's in a room ( no size mentioned by the anti crate brigade) or a kennel its perfectly fine!


No, I've read a simple dismissal of any reason to have a law which highlights crates as being abusive. I've seen people defending crates as though they are never used abusively.

So once again.. where have I said using a crate is abusive? How would you prove in a court of law a crate was being used abusively if there was no physical injury? I am also sure, locking a dog in too a small a room for the dog's size would also be treated as abuse.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> We as in those who did not ask why vets think it is an abuse to crate for a long time.
> It doesn't take expert knowledge to know that crating for a long time is a bad idea.


True, but yet many do use them without a good reason, and don´t find it abusive. Law is a good guideline to say that it is. Still the number of cases, when people crate their dogs for a whole day just because it is easy and they don´t even consider it is abuse is increasing. We (=people who want to improve dog's lives) need to be careful what we say about crates. There are way too many dog owners and bad breeders, who crate their dogs happily all the time. Promoting the use of crates just helps them to think that it is ok to misuse them. I am so happy we have made it clear with the law that it isn´t.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

The title of your thread mentions nothing about *excessive* use of crates, simply that the act of crating a dog is considered abuse in Finland.

That is probably why there has been such a strong response from those who do use crates.


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> True, but yet many do use them without a good reason, and don´t find it abusive. Law is a good guideline to say that it is. Still the number of cases, when people crate their dogs for a whole day just because it is easy and they don´t even consider it is abuse is increasing. We (=people who want to improve dog's lives) need to be careful what we say about crates. There are way too many dog owners and bad breeders, who crate their dogs happily all the time. Promoting the use of crates just helps them to think that it is ok to misuse them. I am so happy we have made it clear with the law that it isn´t.


Just out of interest. Not because I agree or disagree. Where are the numbers you mention showing the amount of people who use crates and then the amount who use them "the whole day" and which figures show this is on the increase?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

MrsZee said:


> True, but yet many do use them without a good reason, and don´t find it abusive. Law is a good guideline to say that it is. Still the number of cases, when people crate their dogs for a whole day just because it is easy and they don´t even consider it is abuse is increasing. We (=people who want to improve dog's lives) need to be careful what we say about crates. There are way too many dog owners and bad breeders, who crate their dogs happily all the time. Promoting the use of crates just helps them to think that it is ok to misuse them. I am so happy we have made it clear with the law that it isn´t.


I think that's a really simplistic way of looking at crate use.
Promoting the use of crates helps people think it's okay to misuse them? No, I don't think so.

Crates are very much like leashes. Responsible owners promote leashing your dog to prevent the dog harassing other dogs, getting pancaked by motor vehicles, harassing wildlife, and otherwise getting themselves in to all sorts of trouble.
When I encourage an owner to leash their dog who just ran across 2 lanes of highway to get to my two, I am not also promoting dog abuse. I am promoting responsible dog ownership and making decisions for your dog that they cannot safely make for themselves.

When I encourage an owner who has told me about the 2nd blockage surgery their dog has had from eating socks that perhaps the dog might need to be crated when they are not home, I am not promoting dog abuse, I am promoting making decision for the safety of your dog when you are not there to prevent him doing things that are dangerous to him.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

MrsZee said:


> True, but yet many do use them without a good reason, and don´t find it abusive. Law is a good guideline to say that it is. Still the number of cases, when people crate their dogs for a whole day just because it is easy and they don´t even consider it is abuse is increasing. We (=people who want to improve dog's lives) need to be careful what we say about crates. There are way too many dog owners and bad breeders, who crate their dogs happily all the time. Promoting the use of crates just helps them to think that it is ok to misuse them. I am so happy we have made it clear with the law that it isn´t.


No promoting the correct use of crates doesn't help people think it's okay to misuse them, just the same ways as promoting the best way of breeding does not help those who want to be back yard breeders! What does help them is when people generalise about breeding by making out all breeders are bad, the same way saying crate use should be banned and not used as it can be abused.. If people use them without knowing the correct way that could lead to abuse! Crates are a wonderful tool for many, and have possibly saved many dogs lives.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Sweety said:


> The title of your thread mentions nothing about *excessive* use of crates, simply that the act of crating a dog is considered abuse in Finland.
> 
> That is probably why there has been such a strong response from those who do use crates.


Can you define in a potentially legally definitive way what would be "excessive" use of crates? I couldn't and this is where I see the legal problem.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Crates are very much like leashes.


Disagree. A leash generally needs no knowledge to use effectively and safely. Using a crate responsibly does. This is where the problem lies as far as I am concerned.

As an aside.. what are people's guesses as to the amount of people who crate responsibly compared to those who do not?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Can you define in a potentially legally definitive way what would be "excessive" use of crates? I couldn't and this is where I see the legal problem.


Exactly!
Excessive is a very relative term.
For a dog who is not used to a crate, has no experience with one, the whole thing could be horribly traumatic and 5 minutes could be excessive. Really sucky situation too if the dog is seriously injured and has to be confined to a crate for his own safety. 
For an adult dog who is going to sleep all day while the owner is at work, has a labrador sized crate and is a toy breed, 6 hours crated would not necessarily be excessive.
Where do you draw the line?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

For Goblin, who actually asked what the law was, and restored my hope.

These are the *minimum* crate sizes:

5 kg 10 kg 20 kg 30 kg 40 kg 50 kg tai yli
1 dog 2,0 2,0 2,5 3,5 4,5 5,5 square meters
2 dogs 2,0 2,5 3,5 4,5 6,0 7,5
3 dogs 2,0 3,5 4,5 6,0 7,5 10,0
4 dogs 2,5 4,0 5,5
5 dogs 3,0 5,0 6,5
6 dogs 4,0 5,5
7 dogs 4,5 6,0

For exhibitions/ recovery/ travelling you can use a smaller cage, but the use of that is even more limited.

The law stipulates:
A dog or an animal must not be kept in a cage, unless it is necessary for illness, transport or other temporary, acceptable reason. Keeping an animal in a cage must not be repetitive, nor continuous. As acceptable reasons for keeping a dog in a crate would be e.g. broken limbs etc. , cleaning a room or having visitors, which are afraid of dogs. Using a crate for a work day is an example of a forbidden usage.

Typically bad kennels are examples where crating is misused and supervised. House call etc. another situation where misuse of crates is detected. One, and in my opinion, the main benefit of this is that people are better aware of how and when to use a crate. The shops selling them rarely care. This way responsible dog owners can use a crate in a responsible way.


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Can you define in a potentially legally definitive way what would be "excessive" use of crates? I couldn't and this is where I see the legal problem.


So because a legally definitive explanation can't be given, they should simply be banned altogether unless for medical use?
I can't give a legally definitive explanation for what is classed as excessive yanking on a dogs lead but I know that I shouldn't do it and I don't need leads to be banned to tell me that either.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Exactly!
> Excessive is a very relative term.
> For a dog who is not used to a crate, has no experience with one, the whole thing could be horribly traumatic and 5 minutes could be excessive. Really sucky situation too if the dog is seriously injured and has to be confined to a crate for his own safety.
> For an adult dog who is going to sleep all day while the owner is at work, has a labrador sized crate and is a toy breed, 6 hours crated would not necessarily be excessive.
> Where do you draw the line?


You see this is where I can see the Finnish regulation coming from. It's impossible as it needs to be black and white, acceptable or not. Make it unacceptable other than in limited circumstances and we'll discourage use. How much crates get used will depend on enforcement but at least if we have a cruelty case which also involves crates we can hit that first without trying to justify it. Interestingly the Finnish justice system does not use juries so I wonder what the guidelines of the judges are when it comes to being able to justify crate use.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Disagree. A leash generally needs no knowledge to use effectively and safely. Using a crate responsibly does. This is where the problem lies as far as I am concerned.


If you say so, I know differently.



MrsZee said:


> Using a crate for a work day is an example of a forbidden usage.


Wow. Totally disagree with that one...


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Perhaps this gives us more of an insight as to why most of the Nordic countries do not have the same dog population crisis as us - because laws like this make it harder for people to own a dog. The forbidden use of a crate being used during working hours certainly puts paid to a lot of otherwise responsible owners.

Not that I'm having a dig or anything as in general I prefer the Nordic way of dog ownership and welfare. Perhaps they have it right after all!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

As far as crate sizes, I would imagine a sticking a dog in a room smaller than the crate size would also be the same as abuse.



MrsZee said:


> A dog or an animal must not be kept in a cage, unless it is necessary for illness, transport or other temporary, acceptable reason. Keeping an animal in a cage must not be repetitive, nor continuous. As acceptable reasons for keeping a dog in a crate would be e.g. broken limbs etc. , cleaning a room or having visitors, which are afraid of dogs. Using a crate for a work day is an example of a forbidden usage.


Personally I would agree with that. Now if you had someone come in, let the dog out midday instead of using a crate for "a whole work day", would that be forbidden usage? It's still vague which is why it is dependent upon implementation and enforcement.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Leanne77 said:


> Just to clarify, what you said also applies to Wales and NI, not just England. Scotland has a complete ban. Just sayin' like


Apologies, I could not be bothered to google it to check so just specified the countries I was sure of.



Doggiedelight said:


> Hi Blitz.
> 
> I dont really think "a lot of people feel crates should not be used".
> I think the general census seems to be crates as long as used correctly arent bad at all. I do understand crates can be abused. As can anything. I do understand there will be people who dont like the idea of using them. However my own feeling and my understanding of many others from how I perceive from reading this thread is that when used and not abused then crates are a good thing for owner and dog alike.


I think there has only been one or two on here that feel crates should not be used at all. I have used them and was happy with the way I used them.



Meezey said:


> Unlike you I have read the Laws and guidelines quite easy to do so, given people ask about laws and guide line's before moving to a country.
> 
> People wouldn't get on their high horse if others stopped making sweeping comments! I am well aware of the difference between a crate and room so don't make out you are after a serious debate after making petty comments! Crates can be large rooms can be small.
> 
> ...


This discussion was basically about crating. Would anyone that does not approve of dogs being left in crates for an excessive amount of time be any happier with a dog being kept in another situation that was abusive. I am not sure though how you can compare a dog being left for 16 hours a day (just an example) in a crate that it can just about stand up in , turn around and lie down or even walk a few steps with leaving a dog in a purpose built large kennel and run or a room where it can change where it sleeps, do zoomies, play with a ball or whatever else takes its fancy. Bearing in mind that the owner is not going to be there anyway surely it is best to give the dog more freedom. And before anyone says their dog chooses to live in its crate because it feels secure then fine, put the crate in the room or the kennel then the dog can choose. BC (before crates) dogs that were not safe to be left roaming a house but were still wanted in the house would have a section of a room safely fenced off and have a far bigger area than even the biggest crate can give. I suppose the other argument could be that a dog that is not safe to have the run of at least one room when the owner is at work is maybe in the wrong home as 8 hours a day , 5 days a week is an awful long time for a dog to be unhappy about being left.
I cannot see any situation where I would put a dog into a rescue kennel but I would and have rehomed carefully myself. Taking responsibility for my own dog and not expecting someone else to clear up my mess. I have also taken on dogs through private rehoming where the dog has not suited its previous home for various reasons.

By the way, for 18 months my husband and myself lived in a 14 foot touring caravan with an awning. We travelled for his job, spending up to 2 weeks in one place. The dogs, a border collie and a sheltie, lived with us and slept in the awning. If we went out they came with us and if they could not come they stayed in the car. They got hours of exercise a day and we did obedience with them so tried to find a good local club as often as we could and were seldom without our company. The sheltie was on breeding terms and the breeder wanted her to have a litter during this time so we also reared a litter in the caravan (went back to my mother's house for the birth and first week). We never felt cramped, it was just the way we lived. Not sure how we did it but it was never ever an issue. I wonder if I would have put them in crates overnight if such things had existed. As it was they slept in tea chests on a tether (dogs not tea chests as the tea chests were pretty well trained and stayed where they were put). I think I probably would have done and of course the crates would have taken up less space than the tea chests but maybe not have been so cosy.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

What I have learned from this thread is that no matter what you do with your dogs, how responsible, caring, dedicated, and attentive you are, someone, somewhere will find something wrong with what you are doing with your dog.

Not one single one of us is a perfect owner. No dog lives in a perfect home. We are all simply doing the best we can, the best we know to do. Perhaps instead of condemning the choices others make we should be seeking to understand them, and from there if necessary add in education and support to help make things better. Not just criticism and judgement.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I think that's a really simplistic way of looking at crate use.
> Promoting the use of crates helps people think it's okay to misuse them? No, I don't think so.
> 
> Crates are very much like leashes. Responsible owners promote leashing your dog to prevent the dog harassing other dogs, getting pancaked by motor vehicles, harassing wildlife, and otherwise getting themselves in to all sorts of trouble.
> ...


On the other hand you could encourage the owner not to leave socks hanging around. A sock mad dog will find and eat one just as quickly when the owner is around. When I had a shoe mad dog I had to be very very careful that no shoes were left around. OK, so it only harmed the shoe, not the dog but it was still not impossible to make sure shoes did not get eaten. My major slip up was when she had grown out of general shoe eating and I was given some very expensive heel raisers by the physio. The following visit she asked me how I had got on with them and I had to admit they were no longer in useable condition! Luckily she likes dogs and gave me another pair and I was very careful with them.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Thats it! jax is off to battersea tomorrow, i shall tell them its because he has a cruel owner who puts him in a crate


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Apologies, I could not be bothered to google it to check so just specified the countries I was sure of.
> 
> I think there has only been one or two on here that feel crates should not be used at all. I have used them and was happy with the way I used them.
> 
> ...


Oh okay so its okay to neglect the dog as long as it has freedom to play I get it... That's the point I have obviously been missing all along... Neglecting a dog in a crate is abuse, but you can neglect a dog in a kennel and run as it can have a run and play while being abused !!


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Can you define in a potentially legally definitive way what would be "excessive" use of crates? I couldn't and this is where I see the legal problem.


No, I can't.

So much depends on the individual dog, it's environment, it's temperament and the circumstances.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Ah, so now one cannot even have a single dog, one has to have more than one, even of course you cannot afford the time, money or space?


Just meant that if one is away all day long ...then locks the dog up all night long so maybe dog has any company for about hour or two a day then I do not see any point of having a dog at all?
If I worked in a rescue I would advised against adopting a dig in such circumstances. 
Yes. Some dogs like hunters may have not more than hour or two of human company but plenty of dogs to interact with which makes it better.

I never said one cannot leave dog alone for longer if must be as life is not perfect!
Yes. Better to dog proof part of a house or room if you have young dog with chewing tendencies than confine it to tiny space.
And obviously teach it acceptable behaviour.

Blind dog, senile dog etc. those are medical reasons already covered.

Nice furniture. Open plan. Light colour carpets , new sofas, are not good enough excuses.
Dogs shed. Dogs dribble. Fart. Snore. Make mess. 
Our choice to have them but then we.must accept all that too.

Animals in zoo must have certain space or you are not allowed to have them.
Surely dogs too?

Actually I can accept outdoor dogs as some breeds prefer big outdoor to hot indoor but I am not sold on small cage 20 hours a day.

Wish anyone who does that tried that themselves even for a week.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

I live in a country where in the rural areas and suburbs its considered normal and quite acceptable for dogs to live outside 24/7. The village where I live is a typical example. Of the 20 dogs living here, mine are the only two who live and sleep inside the house. The rest spend their day either wandering around the village or their front yard, some wearing a heavy chain. At night the lucky ones will sleep in the barn or woodshed, those less fortunate will have a, usually too small, kennel to sleep in. Although by my standards they're all woefully neglected I've only once known of a dog being physically abused by its owner. What is noticeable though is that none of the dogs display any aggression towards other dogs or human. They're also surprisingly obedient despite never having received any training although they do bark at anyone passing their property! 

As an expat who treats her dogs in the same way as any good owner does in the UK, I've been critisied for allowing my two into the house and doing the unthinkable by actually letting them sleep inside! I've been told not to expect my dogs to protect me because I treat them to well! As for walking them on leads, travelling with me the car and taking them to training ... how eccentric! But then their owner is a Brit and its well know they're slightly peculiar!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Nettles said:


> So because a legally definitive explanation can't be given, they should simply be banned altogether unless for medical use?
> I can't give a legally definitive explanation for what is classed as excessive yanking on a dogs lead but I know that I shouldn't do it and I don't need leads to be banned to tell me that either.


Who says it's simply for medical use? Where does it say that?

Now I know this will be jumped on and flamed as people won't consider the idea but I'll throw it into the ring anyway as it's larger than simple crate usage..
Wonder how much of the arguments for extended crate use is a case of "we have a right to own a dog" whereas elsewhere it may be a case of "we have to earn the privilege to own a dog".


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> If you say so, I know differently.
> 
> Wow. Totally disagree with that one...


You were talking about lead use in your first statement and using a crate for a work day in your second.

You are right , of course a lead can be abused. To my way of thinking abuse with a lead is when the dog is pulling non stop either with nothing being done about it or with the owner trying things that are not working. Giving a lead correction that the dog understands and does not have to be continually repeated is not lead abuse in my eyes, but it appears a lot on here are happy to have their dog pulling for months and months just so long as they do not correct it.

As for leaving a dog in a crate all day I am quite surprised you agree with the idea of doing that.



Meezey said:


> Oh okay so its okay to neglect the dog as long as it has freedom to play I get it... That's the point I have obviously been missing all along... Neglecting a dog in a crate is abuse, but you can neglect a dog in a kennel and run as it can have a run and play while being abused !!


You are being deliberately obtuse.


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

This thread needs to be stopped, it's getting silly. Bobs obviously seen it & is now protesting by doing a poo in his today!! Finnish laws are going to his head. I told him he's more than welcome to learn Finnish and make himself a rescue ad  


Ps, I was concerned with the indoor poop so have been keeping an eye on him, kyzer woke me up at 3am to go out to poop so I think they might have a dicky tum / tummy ache. But they are well looked after, honest !


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

JenSteWillow said:


> This thread needs to be stopped, it's getting silly. Bobs obviously seen it & is now protesting by doing a poo in his today!! Finnish laws are going to his head. I told him he's more than welcome to learn Finnish and make himself a rescue ad
> 
> Ps, I was concerned with the indoor poop so have been keeping an eye on him, kyzer woke me up at 3am to go out to poop so I think they might have a dicky tum / tummy ache. But they are well looked after, honest !


Heck I read that as you have a dicky tum, not the dogs. I was trying to work out where you normally poop if not indoors!


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## Nataliee (Jul 25, 2011)

When I bred a litter of pups the crate went up as soon as they were walking around, I never put any of them in it but they made the decision for themselves, as you can see they are traumatised


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

JenSteWillow said:


> This thread needs to be stopped, it's getting silly. Bobs obviously seen it & is now protesting by doing a poo in his today!! Finnish laws are going to his head. I told him he's more than welcome to learn Finnish and make himself a rescue ad
> 
> Ps, I was concerned with the indoor poop so have been keeping an eye on him, kyzer woke me up at 3am to go out to poop so I think they might have a dicky tum / tummy ache. But they are well looked after, honest !


Same in my household. Gwylim who's not crated also woke me up at 3 am asking to go out to poop, and Georgina's gone to bed in a huff 'cos I told her no way was I taking her to Finland to live with Oscar, whom she rather fancies!


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## JenKyzer (Jun 25, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Heck I read that as you have a dicky tum, not the dogs. I was trying to work out where you normally poop if not indoors!


:Hilarious That would of been a hard one to answer.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Blitz said:


> As for leaving a dog in a crate all day I am quite surprised you agree with the idea of doing that.


5:00am all dogs have slept wherever they want to in the house, I get up, let dogs out for a wee. 
5:30 to 6:30 - two of the five are taken for a 3 mile run.
6:30 to 7:00 - the remaining 3 are walked
7:30 dogs are fed and let out for one more wee. Humans go to work. 3 of the 5 dogs are crated.
anywhere between 10 and lunchtime OH or neighbor lets everyone out for a wee. Rarely does anyone wee. Visiting dogs have been known to refuse to get out of the crate, preferring to continue their nap. 
3:30 kids and I come home, all dogs go outside with the kids and stay there until I call them in, anywhere from an hour to 4 hours later. This outside time includes 100% free play and exploring on 20 acres of land, swimming, and interacting with each other and the kids, will also include training time with me. 
Evening, all dogs inside, still interacting with each other and their humans, maybe some additional training with me inside.

This is at most 3 days a week, the rest of the days either I or OH is off and the dogs are only crated while we run errands etc.

The alternative is for the visiting dogs to stay in kennels where they do not get to play with kids, explore freely on 20 acres of land for hours on end, swim every afternoon, go for runs in the morning, and sleep on cushy leather sofas at night.

Our personal dogs are not crated during the work day. The visiting dogs are not crated during the work day when they are at their home. Only when they come here for their (and our dogs' ) safety.


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> .......
> Dogs shed. Dogs dribble. Fart. Snore. Make mess.....


This is exactly why im crate training my husband


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Who says it's simply for medical use? Where does it say that?


Ok, apologies, I forgot travel! It's in the very first post on this thread.

"crating is legal only for travel and temporary occasions (dog shows, recovering etc) butthat's it. For any other purpose it is considered animal abuse and considered criminal.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Disagree. A leash generally needs no knowledge to use effectively and safely. Using a crate responsibly does. This is where the problem lies as far as I am concerned.
> 
> As an aside.. what are people's guesses as to the amount of people who crate responsibly compared to those who do not?


No clue, other than mine and temporary use for things like recovery from a cruciate repair I've only known one dog who was crated as an adult and that's because he suddenly developed seperation anxiety and the crate helped with that.

I see dogs kept otherwise in ways I think isn't right though, a neighbour a few years ago with a puppy who seemed to kenbel it in an I heated kennel from 8 weeks old without ever bringing it in, the SSPCA said it wasn't an issue though as it had shelter, food and water :Banghead, thankfully they rehomed it at the start of winter before the weather got too bad.

And there's a dog round the corner that is regularly turfed into the garden for hours at a time for barking purposes as they say it's too annoying in the house, but they can't walk it because it's too strong 

I find things like that much worse than the lives of any of the dogs I've known who have been crated.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Animals in zoo must have certain space or you are not allowed to have them.
> Surely dogs too?


Dogs are not zoo animals, they are a domesticated species that has co evolved alongside of humans for hundreds of thousands of years, sharing the same living space as humans. It would be cruel to keep a wild creature in the confines of a house, let alone a zoo cage. It is not cruel to keep a dog in a house, which is in effect a very large cage


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Blitz said:


> You were talking about lead use in your first statement and using a crate for a work day in your second.
> 
> You are right , of course a lead can be abused. To my way of thinking abuse with a lead is when the dog is pulling non stop either with nothing being done about it or with the owner trying things that are not working. Giving a lead correction that the dog understands and does not have to be continually repeated is not lead abuse in my eyes, but it appears a lot on here are happy to have their dog pulling for months and months just so long as they do not correct it.
> 
> ...


No I am not. My point being about those who are getting their knickers in a twist about crate is a crate isn't abuse! A dog could equally be neglected and abused in a room, a whole house a kennel. Surely rather than banning a useful tool ( not one who's sole reason for being is inflicting pain and instilling fear E collar) people should be educated on correct use and just because a dog is in a kennel or room doesn't mean leaving it on its own for most of the day, with very little interaction with humans other than throwing in its food is any more acceptable or the odd run around. Leaving a dog all day and night 7 days a weeks all year round in a kennel or one room in a house, is worse imho than dog who spends the working day and week in a crate but gets out to run for hours, goes to training etc in an evening goes on holidays etc the rest of the time


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Many domestic animals are kept in zoos. Rabbits. Goats. Sheep. Llamas.
And?

Very large cage is fine. Like room size.
Crate is fine. Open.So dog goes in and out as they want.
Yes. There is a question of how much space.
Very tiny box room with no window is not much better than very large crate for large dog.

By the way. My children did not use cot as it was used for storage.
Playpen called baby prison was used only for one child for minimum time when I needed to open the oven etc.
I just baby proofed my house.


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Many domestic animals are kept in zoos. Rabbits. Goats. Sheep. Llamas.
> And?
> 
> Very large cage is fine. Like room size.
> ...


Most people tend not to leave children unattended at home?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Many domestic animals are kept in zoos. Rabbits. Goats. Sheep. Llamas.
> And?


Keeping prey animals confined is a whole other conversation. I can't imagine how stressful it must be for a prey animal to be kept in the confines of a zoo with strange people looking at them all day. 
Zoos themselves are a whole other welfare issue that I don't really want to get in to on this thread. 
Suffice it to say, I can give a dog a very good life even if they have to be crated while I'm at work. Zoo animals are no where near as lucky.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Meezey said:


> Most people tend not to leave children unattended at home?


Yeah child protective services kind of frowns on that. And apparently crating them is not a viable option. *shrug*


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Yeah child protective services kind of frowns on that. And apparently crating them is not a viable option. *shrug*


Truly as to snoring husbands those should go to the crate downstairs. Now!

Teenage boys should be kept in crates too. And hosed down with the content when necessary.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> 5:00am all dogs have slept wherever they want to in the house, I get up, let dogs out for a wee.
> 5:30 to 6:30 - two of the five are taken for a 3 mile run.
> 6:30 to 7:00 - the remaining 3 are walked
> 7:30 dogs are fed and let out for one more wee. Humans go to work. 3 of the 5 dogs are crated.
> ...


that is not exactly crating your dogs all day while you are at work and all night too. If dogs are put in kennels they are kept in a condition that would not be suitable for a permanent lifestyle



Meezey said:


> No I am not. My point being about those who are getting their knickers in a twist about crate is a crate isn't abuse! A dog could equally be neglected and abused in a room, a whole house a kennel. Surely rather than banning a useful tool ( not one who's sole reason for being is inflicting pain and instilling fear E collar) people should be educated on correct use and just because a dog is in a kennel or room doesn't mean leaving it on its own for most of the day, with very little interaction with humans other than throwing in its food is any more acceptable or the odd run around. Leaving a dog all day and night 7 days a weeks all year round in a kennel or one room in a house, is worse imho than dog who spends the working day and week in a crate but gets out to run for hours, goes to training etc in an evening goes on holidays etc the rest of the time


I would agree with you that it is worse to leave a dog shut up all the time. I would not agree with you (and neither would many other people in real life) that an e collar's sole reason is for inflicting pain and instilling fear - in fact I find that a very uneducated observation.



ouesi said:


> Yeah child protective services kind of frowns on that. And apparently crating them is not a viable option. *shrug*


I know, flipping busybodies. Mind you putting a child in a cot when it has the ability to crawl around but not to climb out of the cot is really crating, as is a playpen. I used to tether mine or she would wander. A neighbour told me he used an electric fence for his but I think he was joking.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2015)

Blitz said:


> that is not exactly crating your dogs all day while you are at work and all night too.


You didn't ask me about all night. 
Here is how it went:


MrsZee said:


> Using a crate for a work day is an example of a forbidden usage.





ouesi said:


> Wow. Totally disagree with that one...





Blitz said:


> As for leaving a dog in a crate all day I am quite surprised you agree with the idea of doing that.


There was no comment on how long a work day is, how often during the week it happens, what accommodations have been put in place before and after (and during) the time the dog is crated, what opportunities the dog has to express natural behaviors outside of crated time, etc., etc. 
A blanket "using a crate for a work day is an example of a forbidden usage" doesn't take any of that in to account and as such, I disagree. 
I know plenty of dogs who are in effect crated during the work day who live awesome lives, far better than most average pet dogs, they just happen to be crated when he owner is at work.

And this is the whole issue with this thread. People judging things they really don't fully understand or have any experience with.
When we first got Bates, he was crated while we were at work. Same when Breez was a puppy. At a year she was fully able to hold her bladder for 6 to 8 hours but no way in hell was she able to not destroy the house in 30 minutes let alone 8 hours. And the two of them alone together was a total recipe for disaster. By then Bates was out of the crate, so the great dane was gated in a hallway the size of a crate. With a deer antler and a bowl of water.

Had you asked me "do you crate your dog during work hours?" the honest answer would be "yes, I do" and then all hell breaks loose without any effort to fully understand what exactly goes in to what I do with my dogs and what kind of life they lead.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Nettles said:


> Ok, apologies, I forgot travel! It's in the very first post on this thread.
> 
> "crating is legal only for travel and temporary occasions (dog shows, recovering etc) butthat's it. For any other purpose it is considered animal abuse and considered criminal.


Other examples have been listed where it's accepted and not a complete list. Its not a simple case of crate = abuse as it appears at first glance.



tabulahrasa said:


> And there's a dog round the corner that is regularly turfed into the garden for hours at a time for barking purposes as they say it's too annoying in the house, but they can't walk it because it's too strong
> 
> I find things like that much worse than the lives of any of the dogs I've known who have been crated.


Do you know if, in Finland, turfing the dog into the garden and not walking it would not also be classified as abuse? Not spending time with your dog and not walking it is considered abuse in the part of Germany I know about.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Let the dog out!


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## Nettles (Mar 24, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Other examples have been listed where it's accepted and not a complete list. Its not a simple case of crate = abuse as it appears at first glance.


But sadly that is how some people are viewing it and accusing those of us who use crates for any other than for travelling or for medical reasons as abusing our dogs.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

completely off topic but @ouesi , is your land fenced or do you rely on your dogs to stay in your boundaries. 20 acres sounds a lot but for some reason I was lying in bed feeling ill last night and thinking about it and realised that my standard poodles took off one day and covered the 20 acres behind our house at the speed of light and before I could blink had run at least 3 times that distance till they hit the beach and then had turned and run lots of 20 acres in another direction. My collies though would never stray more than a couple of hundred yards and were always in calling distance.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I personally have never used a crate, other than in the car. But Muttly is my first own dog in my own house and he wasn't a pup when I got him.

It's like anything I guess, some idiots abuse it and they can only try and control it, by banning it and ruining it for everyone else.

I agree they probably are a great tool for pups/injured dogs etc.. and if I get a pup, I may well use one during the night IF the pup takes to it ok. Especially as I would want to have the pup in my bedroom with me.

They should not be used as a tool to put a dog away when you don't feel like playing with it.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2015)

Blitz said:


> completely off topic but @ouesi , is your land fenced or do you rely on your dogs to stay in your boundaries. 20 acres sounds a lot but for some reason I was lying in bed feeling ill last night and thinking about it and realised that my standard poodles took off one day and covered the 20 acres behind our house at the speed of light and before I could blink had run at least 3 times that distance till they hit the beach and then had turned and run lots of 20 acres in another direction. My collies though would never stray more than a couple of hundred yards and were always in calling distance.


No, none of it is fenced, except for the horse pastures and that doesn't contain the dogs.
Our land borders some 500+ acres of unused land (no road access) so it's quite remote.
Our dogs don't take off. They pretty much stay next to the house unless someone is out there with them, then they'll stay with the human - which is why I'm comfortable with the kids roaming because I know the dogs will be around with them. When the kids were younger I could figure out where they were even if I couldn't see them by looking at where the dogs were, or seeing where the dogs came running from if I called.
Sometimes Bates will take himself down to the stream by himself or to the fields behind the barn by himself, but he comes back as soon as I call him.
Breez is a very typical velcro dane and doesn't ever get very far from her humans.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Muttly said:


> I personally have never used a crate, other than in the car. But Muttly is my first own dog in my own house and he wasn't a pup when I got him.
> 
> It's like anything I guess, some idiots abuse it and they can only try and control it, by banning it and ruining it for everyone else.
> 
> ...


As to puppy in your room.in his bed or in any other room for my various dogs and kids it took maximum three nights to teach them where the bed is and where they are to sleep.
Just putting them.back at nauseatum.

Though my dd and two of our dogs got it at first time.: - )


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