# When to stop adults play fighting



## Debrand (Dec 10, 2011)

I currently have 3 dogs. A 2 1/2 year old male Newfie x st Bernard, an almost 13 yr old spaniel cross (female) and a roughly 6 year old male boxer I got from the pound 2 months ago. All three are great around the house ( although I feed the boxer separately from the others). However I live in the country and exercise them off lead in the fields around my home. Finn the Newfie was neutered as a pup. Henry the boxer only recently. When we are outside Henry recently just get over excited and wants to play fight Finn constantly, wrestling, mouthing and excitable barking. Finn will play a little, mouthing back although not barking or wrestling. However Finn is happy just to run or walk along whereas this seems to be all Henry wants to do. I assume he is challenging Finn position. Finn is a very placid dog and doesn't seem to bothered but the only way I can get Henry to stop is by putting him on a lead. Even then he just wants to follow Finn. Once we are back home he is a calm, quiet dog again and if he challenges Finn in the house Finn will calmly and quietly put him in his place. Should I totally prevent the fighting outdoors or let it go ahead? Henry had an e collar on for 4 weeks because of eye and leg surgery and this started once the collar was removed


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

My mob play, even the Oldie. I think it`s great. I`d only stop them if a dog was becoming distressed or bullied, or if the play got out of hand - but they usually sort this out themselves.


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## Debrand (Dec 10, 2011)

Well I can't say that Henry bullies Finn. Finn is a much younger stronger dog and could easily put Henry in his place. However Henry just gets more and more excitable growling and barking constantly until I have to put him back on the lead to calm him down. But the minute I let him off he away again. He also tends to be full on with strange dogs..... Nose straight up their butt. I just don't think he's been well socialised


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Debrand said:


> I... have 3 dogs.
> A 2.5-YO male Newf X St Bernard,
> an almost 13-YO Female Spaniel-X,
> & a roughly 6-YO male Boxer [adopted] from the pound 2 months ago.
> ...


please toss the 'rank', hierarchy, pack-theory, etc, junk in the trash - where it belongs! 

dogs don't develop set hierarchies; it's a lot more fluid than that, & context has far-more to do with 
any dog's behavior toward any other dog, than does 'hierarchy'. It's a disproved & 30-years outdated 
theory, which has been badly misinterpreted & misapplied for decades. 


Debrand said:


> Finn is a very placid dog & doesn't seem [too] bothered, but the only way I can get Henry to stop
> is [to put] him on-lead. Even then he just wants to follow Finn. Once we're back home, he's a calm, quiet dog
> again, & *if he challenges Finn in the house, Finn will calmly & quietly put him in his place.*


so long as the dogs are not violent, i let THEM sort out their own relations - 
however, i would NOT leave the dogs at large together unless i was there to supervise, just in case.

any dog who gets frustrated or angry could badly-hurt another dog, even without serious intention - 
it's not worth the risk. A stout latched door which the dogs cannot possibly open, or shipping crates 
[which are much safer & to be preferred, IMO] are a good choice to separate the dogs when solo.

the long-term resident dogs may be fine, free in the house when U are not home, but the new adoptee 
IMO should be crate-trained & crated when humans aren't home, plus watched to be sure he doesn't pester, 
when the humans ARE at home; a baby-gate to separate him from the others would be good, so they 
can take a break from his obstreperous behavior. :thumbup1:


Debrand said:


> Should I totally prevent the fighting outdoors or let it [continue]?


so long as ALL the dogs are taking turns being the 'victim', it's fine - 
if ONE dog is constantly the one pursued, jumped-on, etc, then by all means, Stop the 'game'.

good play involves taking turns - just as with humans.  


Debrand said:


> Henry [wore] an Elizabethan-collar for 4-weeks b/c of eye & leg surgery...
> this started [after] the [cone-]collar was removed.


U only adopted him 2-mos ago; he'e an adult, with very poor dog-skills, unfortunately.

an experienced reward-based trainer could be a big help - 
i'd recommend the APDT-uk for a starting point, they list trainer-members by location. :thumbup1: 
they assess all members before admitting them, & ban aversive tools & intimidating methods.

WATCHING him to interrupt all pesty behaviors, then let him go again, in literally 30 to 45-seconds, 
& CATCH HIM UP if he again begins to pester, is one tactic that will help him learn to take a break. 
A long-line worn as a drag on a FRONT-clipped H-harness is a simple, cheap means of managing him 
during the B-Mod process.

management is imperative- U cannot TRAIN when U cannot CONTROL.  
"control first - then train", to quote Brian Kilcommons.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Debrand said:


> He also tends to be full on with strange dogs... Nose straight up their butt.
> 
> I just don't think he's been well-socialised.


a very-likely possibility.

if he gets too intrusive with the wrong dog, he may have his head handed to him - which would be 
a bad thing, as that could cause him to become either defensive, or outright aggressive, 
trying to chase off other dogs BEFORE they have the chance to threaten him...

i'd limit his ability to meet other non-family dogs, again with a front-clip H-harness & long-line. 
30-ft of horse lunge-line is cheap & sturdy. If he drags the line, U do NOT call him to come to U, 
which will only teach him to ignore recalls & rush to the strange dog - instead, Walk to the END 
of his drag-line when U see a strange-dog nearby, tread on the trailing end, Bend to pick it up, 
& reel him in - Then reward him when he arrives, with praise of course, PLUS a game of tug, a treat, 
or some other concrete token of appreciation.

the strange-dogs can be allowed to meet him if they wish; of course, ONLY if they are dog-social.


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## Debrand (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. My local APDT trainer is very much pro the pack theory and having used him in the past I really didnt like him so would not want to use him again. He constantly pushed the idea of making sure you were the pack leader. 
I'm not at all worried about leaving the dogs unsupervised in the house as there have been no problems in the house. I'm not even sure there is a problem outside other than my perception of the situation.
They dont take turns- Milly my elderly girl is not involved as both boys leave her alone.
Finn will play for a little while then he just wants to walk along and will ignore Henry's jumping on him, barking and growling. He just continues with his walk when he know longer wants to play despite Henry often having two paws on his shoulders barking and growling. Neither do has ever hurt the other although I have been knocked over twice when they were playing and chasing each other, When that happened both times Finn was immediately quiet and stood beside me with his head bowed and nudging me with his nose. Both times Henry carried on barking and wanting to play.I will investigate the front clip harness. It sounds like a good idea


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Debrand said:


> My local APDT trainer is very much *pro the "pack theory"*, & having used him in the past,
> I really didn't like him [&] would not want to use him again. He constantly pushed the idea
> of making sure you were the pack leader.


did U report that to the APDT-uk?

i would! :thumbup: 


Debrand said:


> They dont take turns - Milly, my elderly girl, is not involved; both boys leave her alone.
> 
> Finn will play for a little while then he just wants to walk along & [ignores] Henry jumping on him,
> barking & growling. He just continues with his walk when he [no] longer wants to play, despite Henry
> ...


yup - 
NOT taking turns is a definite sign that it's OTT play. :yesnod:

i think the Boxer is using this to bleed-off his own over-arousal; it's a safety-valve for him. 
he needs to learn self-control ---- & more-apropos play, too.


Debrand said:


> I will investigate the front clip harness. It sounds like a good idea.


any H-harness that fits FLAT & SNUG is good - if a metal RING joins the 3 straps on the chest, that's nice - 
if they're stitched & have loops of fabric, not a metal ring, a LOCKING CARABINER can be used as a safe, 
secure "ring" - run it under the junction of the straps, LOCK it, & clip the leash onto the carabiner.


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## Debrand (Dec 10, 2011)

Thanks
I love him to bits and I don't expect to take on an adult rescue and have no problems. I was always a fan of th NILF approach so we're doing lots of that too.


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