# Cassie the Itchy Rottweiler



## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks for everyone who's been helping in the raw food thread, I thought it was time to start a new thread to stop the raw food one going off topic. I thought it might help for all of my posts to be in the same place too, as a kind of diary for me, and possibly help others for if I ever find out what is wrong with Cassie. For those who haven't been following, and are interested, I'll just update with some background info.



> Last year she had a bad accident in the park where she ran through glass and severed an artery and nerves in her leg. She was on Antibiotics for around 3 months, and her leg took a long time to heal after surgery but thankfully it is now back to normal.
> 
> Over the past 4 years of having her she's always been a bit of an itchy dog. After visits to three different vets, they all claimed the same thing, saying she had allergies to foods and advised putting her on a Hypoallergenic diet for a few months and if that didn't work then skin scrapings and blood tests.. She was originally on the well-known crappy commercial dog foods, we migrated her onto Orijen due to the lack of grains in that food hoping that would help, and finally tried her on Royal Canin Hypoallergenic. None of these foods changed her itching. She also had goopy eyes, hair loss around her eyes, bad breath, and a runny nose. She had no serious symptoms and always had energy, but I just felt she was a bit miserable due to the symptoms she had. As a last resort before doing tests, I wanted to try her on RAW to see if it would help. From reading lots of info from her symptoms it sounded like her immune system could be suppressed by the crappy kibble that she had been on, the antibiotics due to her leg injury, and all the stress that she had been through.
> 
> Recently Cassie changed to raw food. In the first 2 weeks she had no problems, going to the toilet and everything seemed fine, her coat looked great, itching appeared to get a bit better, and nose cleared up too. But her itching came on severe after 2 weeks of being on raw chicken, turkey and beef, in just 2 days she went from perfect to horrible. She itched her head and neck and caused new hotspots every day which we successfully treated using Daktarin, she now has to have her e-collar on 70% of the time otherwise she will instantly go for her back end to bite. We tried to eliminate everything we could, we treated her for fleas using frontline, took her to the vets to have her anal glands expressed, and I started her food again from scratch and starting just on chicken, in case it was something she was allergic to that I fed her. I tried just chicken for a week but the problem didn't get any better. Due to the itching being so severe I didn't want to continue the elimination diet trying her on different RAW foods, so 3 days ago I took her off RAW all together, and put her back on Royal Canin Hypoallergenic hoping her symptoms would calm down a bit and go back to the way she was before RAW. This should give me an idea if it was definitely something that I fed her RAW which she had an allergy to.


Anyway, this morning I was looking through her fur and noticed some pink rashes on her belly (the squidgy part below her ribs) the size of 5p coins, about 10 of them. I had previously noticed these small rashes about a week ago but only saw one so just thought it was from her scratching, I also noticed that when I tickled her belly where they were she would have an itching reflex with her back leg, a bit like the pinna reflex test for scabies. Out of nowhere a flea came scrambling through her fur, I tried getting it but it jumped. So hopefully, seeing this flea could mean the bout of severe itching that she had since starting RAW could in fact be a flea infestation, and flea allergies rather than being allergic to some raw food. It doesn't explain why she was mildly itchy over the past 4 years, but I still put that down to being on kibble, as RAW appeared to help her in that respect, if only for a short while.

What got to me was, she had frontline about 2 weeks ago as said previously, which should have killed off any fleas. So now I have to look into alternatives to frontline. I've been searching the forum and came across some house treatments such as acclaim 2000, so will be ordering some of that to treat the house too. If anyone can recommend any alternatives to frontline, I do like natural treatments if they work, but her itching has been so severe that I will settle for chemicals providing they actually work, surely anything is better than 100% itchyness?

Finally I'd just like to thank a few people for helping me the past few weeks, and to those who have replied to my messages, Dirty Gertie , sled dog hotel, Coffee, and niki. You've all made me feel at home coming on these forums as I only signed up earlier this month and instantly felt comfortable.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

This may help to give you some ideas, I found it awhile ago looking for something else it shows common skin problems in dogs.

Skin Problems in Dogs Slideshow: Mange, Allergic Dermatitis, Impetigo, Ringworm, More

I was reading an article this week by Richard Allport who is a conventional vet but now runs an alternative medicine refferal centre and it was about fleas.

Dogs with health Immune systems he says rarely suffer from fleas. His advice is.

Diet avoid non organic processed food, feed a diet of fresh food preferably containing raw meat and bones or give a good quality organic proprietary diet.

Lifestyle and environment, ensure the pet has exercise appropriate for the breed and doesnt become overweight avoid exposure to cigarette smoke, aerosol sprays and other household chemicals.

Medicines, avoid over vaccination, worm treatments and other conventional medicines use natural alternatives where possible.

He also gives natural remedies to help pets stay flea free, but does say if they have a bad infestation then you should use a conventional flea treatment as the following will keep fleas away but not cope with bad infestations. Although he also says that he never uses chemical flea treatments on his dogs and never sees any.

Garlic
either as fresh raw garlic or garlic tablets, Large dogs which Im assuming she is if not let me know. Three tablets or 3/4 of a garlic clove twice daily.
You should give the dose one week on and one week off. He says because of
overdosing with garlic is possible although difficult the week on week off is to make sure.

Homeopathic medicine Sulphur 200c
Give on single tablet each week, Do not give garlic the day the tablet is given, give tablets away from food by mouth directly and avoid touching tablets, tablets may be mixed with butter or white fish but at least half an hour away from the main meal.

Sol Dog flea repel
A natural spot on based on neem oil and cedarwood atlas oil apply a little on the base of the neck and the base of the spine once a month.

Essential Oils
Add 3 drops each of lemon, rosemary and lavender to 150ml water and comb the mixture through the coat daily during the flea season late spring to early autumn this acts as a natural flea repellant.

The Natural Medicine centre can supply any of these remedies please contact if you have any questions about natural treatments for fleas
www.naturalmedicinecentre.co.uk


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks Sled Dog, that's an excellent link. Deffinately bookmarked. Just been through them all and really she has no visible symptoms of any of the other skin problems. The pink rashes I mentioned on her belly are deffinately similar to the flea ones so I'm pretty sure she's being bitten. And the hotspots, well I know what those look like unfortunately. 

Last night she managed to take her e-collar off when I was asleep, I woke up this morning to her biting the top of her back leg near her bum. She's managed to strip a fist size area clear of fur, one bit about the size of a pea looks like she's broken the skin and it's a bit red and dry bloody, possibly even a little raised like a bump. I just put some daktarin on to make sure it doesn't turn into a hotspot as I've found keeping them dry clears them up quickly. She's really irritated by it and won't let me touch anywhere near her back end without spazzing out. I'm thinking it could have been a flea bite, it doesn't look like a hotspot yet so I'm not sure if to treat it as a wound and put sudocrem on it instead of daktarin :confused1:


Regards to the alternative treatment for fleas:

I started giving garlic to her a couple of days ago, one clove a day, I'll make sure to do the alternative week idea to make sure its safe for her. She loves garlic so I crush it and mix it with a bit of water and add with her food. She's on the small size for a female rottweiler, she's only 37kg, but she's not under/overweight she's spot on.

I'm treating the house today with some flea spray which my sister gave to me, I gave downstairs a good vacuum yesterday and doing upstairs today, will keep vacuuming every day. It's not acclaim or the other good well known one, but it was around the same price, and she said it got rid of a cat flea infestation in her house so will give it a go.

From reading what he says, it sounds like I should be using a chemical treatment to get rid of them then repell them in the long term with a natural treatment like the garlic, and sol flea repel (looks good, and not a bad price!) once the infestation has gone. Do you know of any other chemical alternatives to frontline for the time being?

-update
Oh also, I think I might have mentioned it in another post of mine, but I've started cleaning with natural products, bicarb, white vinegar and lemon and cutting down my use of chemical sprays and air fresheners etc. They're not good for my asthma and rhinitis, and they can't be good for her either, I find the natural cleaning stuff to be just as good as the chemical ones any way and it works out cheaper too!


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm sure that any fleas that come into my house are brought in by my cat but to be honest I get very few. I don't see the cat scratch (although she is outdoors a lot) but I have found the odd one or two on Poppy during the last month. My groomer reckons August is the worst month for fleas.

Because I'm sure it's the cat then I Frontline her once a month but I don't regularly Frontline Poppy. I have done it once after we came back from visiting a friend's house and she was covered in about 50 fleas around her head and neck. Definitely from my friend's house, she had just lost her cat and I honestly don't think her house ever gets cleaned and the poor cat probably didn't get flea treated either. I bathed her, Frontlined her, got rid of all the fleas and treated the house. The Frontline did work on the few fleas I didn't manage to get during bathing but I didn't want to use it regularly.

For Poppy I add Billy No Mates tincture (scroll down to 5th item) to her food daily (cat gets this also).  She also gets Biospotix spot on monthly. I've just stocked up as it can be hard to get sometimes. Then I add some garlic to her blended veggies which she gets regularly.

I've just looked at the Sol Dog Flea Repel SDH mentions and would like to try that but although it costs only £4.50 the postage is £2.95 and because I don't want anything else from the site when postage costs almost three quarters of the cost of the item then that's not economical for me.

I hope you find something that works for Cassie and that you're happy with. Keep us updated.


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

Another thought!

I used Vetzyme Rug Patrol(bought from the local hardware shop) on my carpet. Don't forget to vacuum edges where carpet meets skirting board and also move furniture.

Also, Advantage is another chemical flea treatment which I see mentioned a lot as people are saying Frontline doesn't seem to work as well as it used to. I shall continue to Frontline the cat as it seems to be doing the job fairly well here but have just bought an alternative brand with the same ingredient but cheaper.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Hi dirtygertie 

It's funny you mentioned that. As to my previous post in reply to SDH, my sister gave me some flea spray for the house. the reason she had this was because she had a flea infestation on the 31st July (Cassie started itching about a week before then) after coming back from a holiday they were all over the house. They've unoficially adopted a neighbours cat, the neighbours very old and smokes constantly during the day, she probably doesn't treat her cat for fleas either. Her flats full of cigarette smoke so the cat tends to stay outside a lot. Over the past few months the cat's been coming in through my sisters window and spends a lot of time in her house (probably because of the clean air!).

Now I've heard 90% of fleas found on dogs are from cats (not sure how accurate that is!) but, the point being, dogs rarely get fleas as you've said, wheras cats get them a lot! I know from past experience with my cats, they loved to attract fleas and Cassies only had them once before in the past 4 years. Cassie visits my sister every few weeks, so she's probably been in contact with fleas, so it seems likely this is how she's got them!

Is poppy really aggitated by fleas or is she not so bad? I've never seen Cassie itch so much in her life, and I know that they can be alergic to the flea salivar I just didn't realise how bad!

Thanks for the links to those products, I'll add all of these in a word document do a bit of research on them and work out which is best for me to get for the ongoing prevention of fleas in the long term, especially now my sister 'has' a cat lol


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## DirtyGertie (Mar 12, 2011)

ryanr said:


> Is poppy really aggitated by fleas or is she not so bad? I've never seen Cassie itch so much in her life, and I know that they can be alergic to the flea salivar I just didn't realise how bad!


No, you wouldn't really know she had a flea on her, I only ever find them if I notice any flea dirt when I do her daily brushing. I have found a flea crawling with no evidence at all, no flea dirt, no scratching. She didn't even scratch when she got all those fleas from my friends house, I only knew about them because I'd started to brush her about an hour after we got back and saw them crawling over her head . Trouble is with Poppy, her coat is like candyfloss and very fluffy so if I see a flea I have to be very quick to catch it as it can disappear and be totally undetectable with one or two seconds.

I have seen her scratching occasionally and I give her a good look over but have never seen a flea on those occasions.

I must be lucky that she doesn't react to fleas in any way. I read some posts on here and see how some dogs have reactions or other problems and realise just how lucky I am. I have two friends and both their dogs constantly have anal gland problems and need them emptying. Poppy is my third dog and none of them have had that problem, I didn't even know about anal glands until I read about it on here and I had my first dog 40 years ago! Maybe the bones in Poppy's raw diet is preventing that problem, but whatever it is I'm so grateful .


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

I would deffinately say cats if you have them play a big part with fleas, years ago I had a persian and fleas were a problem now Ive just got dogs, I never have a problem and in fact I havent fleat treated for years now. Dont know if its anything to do with the fact that mine have thick double coats, but they are throughly groomed right through to the skin at least once a week and there is never any signs of flea dirts or even itching, apart from the very odd itch and when they are blowing their undercoats they very seldom scratch.

Was looking at that Natural Medicine centre site yesterday too that I linked you too and there is lots of suggestions for problem skin on there too dont k now if you missed it?

skin problems see also fleas/external parasites, warts/granulomas, 

Cod Liver Oil: a supplement that helps relieve dry, scaly, itchy skin symptoms, especially if given in combination with Evening Primrose Oil 

Evening Primrose Oil: a supplement that helps relieve dry, scaly, itchy skin symptoms, especially if given in combination with Cod Liver Oil 

Hypericum and Calendula ointment: a homoeopathic remedy to soothe and promote healing of sore and damaged skin. 

Dermagel: a combination of herbal extracts in a gel or spray format, which cools, soothes, has an antiseptic action, and actively promotes healing of damaged skin 

Kai: a mixture of traditional Western and Chinese herbs, which contribute to maintaining health and vitality in dogs, in particular those affected by poor skin condition and eczema 

Kelp: a seaweed supplement rich in Iodine and other minerals that improves skin condition and helps stimulate hair growth. It especially helps with cases of dry hair, poor hair growth, and loss of hair colour. It is particularly useful when symptoms of hypothyroidism are present 

Zinc: a supplement to improve skin and coat condition especially where there is dry and flaky skin. Animal Magic Biotin & Royal Jelly: a supplement that helps to improve and strengthen condition of skin, nails and pads 

Oatderm Shampoo: an oatmeal based shampoo which helps cleanses the skin and relieves skin inflammation 

Omegaderm: a supplement containing marine fish oil, which helps to relieve itching, flaking, dry, dandruff, itchy, allergic skin 

Just wondering if anything will help there even, I think you can contact them for advice or Email them details on the link, might be worth it.

There is a lot of natural Immune boosters too as I notice you said you think a lot of the problems may also be her immune system

immune problems/infections see also energy problems, general supplements 

Immune Formula: a herbal combination that stimulates the immune system and helps fight acute or chronic infection. 

Animal Magic Royale: a liquid herbal combination which boosts energy and stimulates the appetite. 

Animal Magic Multi-Vitamin & Royal Jelly: a supplement to provide all the necessary vitamins that help the immune system function effectively. 

Animal Magic Vitamin C & Royal Jelly: a supplement that boosts the anti infective capability of the body 

Animal Magic Selenium ACE & Royal Jelly : an anti oxidant supplement that neutralises the free radicals that predispose to immune system damage. 

Animal Magic 50mg/100mg Royal Jelly & Echinacea capsules: a combination that has a positive effect on the immune system to help treat or prevent the onset of infections of all kinds 

Citrus Paradisi: an extract of grapefruit seed, which promotes balanced functioning of the immune system and helps fight infection. 

Animal Magic Odourless Garlic & Royal Jelly: a natural anti viral, anti bacterial, and anti fungal combination. 
Propolis: a natural anti bacterial, anti fungal and anti viral remedy produced by bees 
VetriDMGliquid: an amino acid based immune system booster especially helpful in the treatment of chronic infections such as cat flu and leukaemia.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

DirtyGertie said:


> No, you wouldn't really know she had a flea on her, I only ever find them if I notice any flea dirt when I do her daily brushing. I have found a flea crawling with no evidence at all, no flea dirt, no scratching. She didn't even scratch when she got all those fleas from my friends house, I only knew about them because I'd started to brush her about an hour after we got back and saw them crawling over her head . Trouble is with Poppy, her coat is like candyfloss and very fluffy so if I see a flea I have to be very quick to catch it as it can disappear and be totally undetectable with one or two seconds.
> 
> I have seen her scratching occasionally and I give her a good look over but have never seen a flea on those occasions.
> 
> I must be lucky that she doesn't react to fleas in any way. I read some posts on here and see how some dogs have reactions or other problems and realise just how lucky I am. I have two friends and both their dogs constantly have anal gland problems and need them emptying. Poppy is my third dog and none of them have had that problem, I didn't even know about anal glands until I read about it on here and I had my first dog 40 years ago! Maybe the bones in Poppy's raw diet is preventing that problem, but whatever it is I'm so grateful .


Well you're definately doing something right! Cassie's my first dog, and it's been nothing but trouble, I love having her so much and wouldn't be able to think about life without her. She makes the house feel so safe, I don't mind realising I've left a window open when I go out, or the back door (although obviously I try not to!) and she keeps me company and provides so many laughs! But god, does she have ongoing problems! They say animals extend your life, but with cassie I think it's she's taken a good few years off mine with stress lol

I want to get her back on RAW, as cassie has anal problems too, and her poos were so much more solid on RAW so it should help the glands. But at the moment I think it's best to just keep her on kibble, at least until she stops scratching like crazy, as it might still be an allergy to some raw food- who knows?


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I cant really add much to the already excellent advice that you have had  

just to say, dont forget to really hot wash all the linens, dog beds, throws etc etc that you have in the house to get rid of any eggs that may be in them

It is quite possible that she is that allergic to fleas, I know when a lady on here went to Cambridge with her dogs allergies they prescribed stronghold as the flea prevention. I know its not natural and like you I am all for the natural route but I was just thinking while you get this under control 


wishing you the very best of luck  I hope you can get her back on raw soon


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

Hi Ryan 

Oh I hope for both your sakes it is as simple as fleas and when you get rid of them Cassie gets better 

You need to declare war on the little bastards :lol:

I saw one flea on Alfie a few months ago and nearly gave myself a panic attack  I hoovered the entire house more thoroughly than I ever had before... every nook, cranny, crevice. Once I'd done that I did it all again. No, am not joking  Best workout I've had for years :lol: Then I promptly changed the hoover bag!

Then I 90 degree washed everything that could be washed... bedding, blankets, rugs etc...

Then I blasted the whole of downstairs with RIP Fleas (Alfie doesn't go upstairs ever, so even though I did hoover upstairs, just in case, I didn't bother with the spray up there).

Finally I treated Alfie with Frontline Combo (can only get it from the vets) and have done him every 8 weeks since, as advised by the vet. I'd never flea treated Alfie before then... didn't think it was necessary but now I'm very much of the "prevention better than cure" school of thought! 

Just thinking... if Cassie is able to get the buster collar off, have you thought about one of these? Just while she's healing...

Buster Inflatable Elizabethan Collar  Blue - From £7.85


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks SDH I did indeed miss the link at the bottom of your post, thanks for pointing that out. It looks like a good source of info, if only I lived nearer to his surgery!  I'm not a vet so I don't know if it is her immune system, but she has so many problems it just seems likely to me that it is. I was hoping RAW would help in that respect too.

He also has a book, Heal your dog the natural way, might be worth me giving it a read! I do like natural treatments, I feel uncomfortable giving her chemicals which say "apply with gloves" I mean, why can she have it on her skin but not mine, when her skin is more sensitive than my hands?! I don't mind the one off, if it works, but ongoing chemicals just can't be great for any animal.

Once I get the fleas under control I'll look into her immune system, it seems a lot of info and feels a bit overwhelming at the moment to tackle it whilst she has fleas, although I guess this is a critical time when she needs her immune system. I deffinately want to try her back on RAW again that's for sure.

I think I'm going to give the advantage flea treatment a try, as it's only about £12 with free delivery code from one click pharmacy. She had frontline a couple of weeks ago so not sure if I should wait maybe another week before applying advantage, as I don't want her to overdose on it. And in the meantime I'll clean the house every day, apply the flea spray, and keep feeding her garlic. Then once it's cleared (hopefully) I'll work out which of the natural flea treatments to give her, and switch her back to raw, then work on boosting her immune system with natural products/probiotics to hopefully prevent and get rid of her other symptoms. Does this sound about right to you?


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Hi babycham, 
Thanks very much for the kind words, and that is something I've forgotten to do! Bedding! She doesn't stay upstairs much, but every now and then when I need to be upstairs for a prolonged amount of time she sometimes comes up, plus if the fleas have jumped on me they're probably upstairs too! I'll get everything in the wash during the next couple of days, good job I just bought a new 9kg load washing machine, my last one was only 5kg lol.

Hi again Coffee,
Me too, really hope it is as simple as fleas. I actually got excited when I saw one as I though Ah-hah! lol I've heard of frontline combo, is it suppose to be much better than standard frontline? My vets is a bloody rip off merchant when it comes to stuff like that, think they charged about £40 last time! Hmm, advantage or combo? I'll have to think on it! Thanks again for your support.

I have come accross the inflatable buster collars, but because she's such a contortionist I just can't see them working on her. It was mostly my fault why her collar came off. I took her standard collar off because it got wet, and hanged it on radiator to dry, but put the plastic e-collar (without her usual collar) on her, so she managed to take it off, Doh! I'm gonna inspect her again tonight (with some help from a friend) to make sure her back end isn't worse than I thought.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

To be honest I'm not really sure what the difference is between the Frontline Spot On and the Frontline Combo  But that was the one the vets gave me and it's worked for us... never seen a flea on him since that very first one.

<touches wood>


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Thanks SDH I did indeed miss the link at the bottom of your post, thanks for pointing that out. It looks like a good source of info, if only I lived nearer to his surgery!  I'm not a vet so I don't know if it is her immune system, but she has so many problems it just seems likely to me that it is. I was hoping RAW would help in that respect too.
> 
> He also has a book, Heal your dog the natural way, might be worth me giving it a read! I do like natural treatments, I feel uncomfortable giving her chemicals which say "apply with gloves" I mean, why can she have it on her skin but not mine, when her skin is more sensitive than my hands?! I don't mind the one off, if it works, but ongoing chemicals just can't be great for any animal.
> 
> ...


I would do what you are doing to be honest, fleas first priority, then working on natural repellants and diet and boosting her immune system and general all round and skin condition.

If you still dont see a response or the problems havent alleviated, then I would perhaps have some more testing done, for things like mites, bacterial,fungal infections and yeast over growths.

Demodectic mites, are present on a lot of dogs in small numbers causing no problems as a health immune system keeps them down. In dogs with an immune system thats not good, they can run riot in numbers and cause skin problems. Demodectic mites live in the hair folllicles, You can get localised a few patches here and there, or generalised wider areas infected.

Sarcoptic Mites burrow in the skin, causing intense itching. Again the immune system must play a part as the body does produce antibodies against them, in fact thats the most accurate way of finding if the dogs infected, with a blood test to look for the sarcoptic antibodies, it has to be suspected for awhile though to be accurate giving time for the antibodies to form as done too soon before they are it can be negative.

Sometimes a skin scrape (deep) if you are lucky will find demodex and Sarcoptic mites but its not always accurate, only about 20% of sarcoptic is found this way. Skin scrapes sent off for culture though is a good way of finding, bacteria, fungal infections and things like yeast overgrowth.

Although I loath and detest them steroid treatment is often an indicator if the problems allergic, Allergies are usually the immune system going overboard against an allergen, steroids dampden down the immune system so it doesnt go overboard and the problem usually subsides at least while on them and a while after. if they allergen is still present and the response though then it will likely re-occur. Antibiotics (assuming they are the right one) will work on bacterial infections or secondary bacterial infections caused by itching and scratching and trauma to the skin. Obviously if fungal infections present them it will need anti fungals. Thats why for bacterial and fungal a cultures handy because identifys the exact bacteria or fungal infection so the right preparations are used.

Thats how I worked out a members dog likely had sarcoptic mange a few works ago, it didnt respond to steroids, antibiotics worked a bit for awhile obviously on the secondary bacterial infection caused by scratching and trauma, but the dog was still itching like crazy. 4/5 vets had seen her over a 8mth plus period orginally done a skin scrape which was negative so they ruled it out. Turned out she had sarcoptic mites from when they got her all the time.


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## Netpon (Feb 21, 2012)

For all skin issues the first action is to treat regularly for fleas, whether you see one or not. Elimination diet is the next step, sticking to one food for at least 8 weeks with not even the tiniest scrap of anything else (not a treat, a biscuit a crust of your bread, nothing)

The vets can do patch tests and give 'vaccines' once they've found what she's allergic to.
Skin problems are notoriously difficult to diagnose/manage I'm afraid but IMO a raw diet is a good step towards controlling her problem


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Coffee said:


> To be honest I'm not really sure what the difference is between the Frontline Spot On and the Frontline Combo  But that was the one the vets gave me and it's worked for us... never seen a flea on him since that very first one.
> 
> <touches wood>


Front line just contains Fipronil active ingrediant, the spot ons now off prescription where it used to be vet or vet prescription only.

Front Line Combo contains Fipronil still but also contains Methoprene which is a prescription only medicine thats why its from vets only or online with a vet prescription.

The added Methroprene prevents fleas multiplying in the home buy stopping the eggs larvae and pupae as well.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks SDH, that's a lot of info right there, I think it'll take a couple of reads to sink in and understand. If I'm not being rude, I'm really curious as to how you know so much info on animals? 

If her itching doesn't subside after all of the things I do, when the time comes would you be willing to help by advising me what tests to have? as that would be a great help, the vets don't explain it well enough to me so I'll generally just agree and trust them on it, coming away confused! I know it's a bit of a shot in the dark and every vet charges different prices, but am I looking at hundreds of pounds for the tests? I'll obviously do them either way but it would give me a good idea and I can start saving for them then. Though lets hope it doesn't come to that 

I've just been around the living/dining room, gave the place and sofa a good vacuum, and sprayed the flea spray around the edges and corners and hard to reach areas, nearly choked myself to death! I've put cassie in the hall for now and I've came upstairs, will let her back in the room later. I've also took all the cushion covers off and threw them in the wash. Will do the hall/kitchen later tonight


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Thanks SDH, that's a lot of info right there, I think it'll take a couple of reads to sink in and understand. If I'm not being rude, I'm really curious as to how you know so much info on animals?
> 
> If her itching doesn't subside after all of the things I do, when the time comes would you be willing to help by advising me what tests to have? as that would be a great help, the vets don't explain it well enough to me so I'll generally just agree and trust them on it, coming away confused! I know it's a bit of a shot in the dark and every vet charges different prices, but am I looking at hundreds of pounds for the tests? I'll obviously do them either way but it would give me a good idea and I can start saving for them then. Though lets hope it doesn't come to that
> 
> I've just been around the living/dining room, gave the place and sofa a good vacuum, and sprayed the flea spray around the edges and corners and hard to reach areas, nearly choked myself to death! I've put cassie in the hall for now and I've came upstairs, will let her back in the room later. I've also took all the cushion covers off and threw them in the wash. Will do the hall/kitchen later tonight


No your not being rude, I loved biology and chemistry at school was really interested in it and just absorbed it like a sponge (sound like a right big head dont I) Anyway long story short, misspent youth and all that although I passed exams didnt do as well as I should. Probably wouldnt have made any difference anyway no one I knew or family ever went into further education
probably lack of money and opportunities anyway in those days. I still retained an interest in anything biology and chemistry anyway and having dogs over the years they have had their fair share of medical crisis of all sorts. Suppose you could even say Im just an anorak Although I think my vets and doc wish I wasnt such a pain in the bum at times

Ive ever only used Acclaim 2000, I used to do much as you have done spray carpets and all round the edges, do room by room at a time leave with windows closed and dont go in there, then open the windows and air it for awhile before letting the dogs in and going in myself, then just working around room to room doing the same thing, sprayed dog beds too, left them air then washed them. If you have a hoover bag I would chuck that too when you have finished when you take it out.

Ive got an old price list from one lab thats out of date Jan 2011 the Sarcoptic
Mange antibodies test was £27.00 plus Vat so likely gone up thats the Lab costs though for running the test, Your vet could well put his margin on top and for doing it in fact they probably will.

With a skin scrape for mites, they usually I think look under the microscope in house, although cultures for bacterial and fungal infections etc will have to go off to the lab I would think. I havent got a clue what they would be tbh.

Next time you go to the vet they should be able to give you a quote though I would think. Just say if it were needed what sort of costs would you be looking it. Ill give you all the help I can or if I come across anything else in my travels as Im always poking about that I think may be useful Ill let you know as well.

There is somthing called Nutriscan testing thats available in the states from hemopet, its a test loking for antibodies in saliva to certain foods. That requires a test kit (rather like DNA testing kits with swabs) They do international testing, prices for the test are on the website (havent a clue with exchange rate) but there is also the cost of fed ex to consider.

Welcome to Nutriscan - Dog Food Sensitivity Kit

Order

I know there is blood testing for allergys too just checked the particular lab I mentioned about the sarcoptic antibody test also does allergy testing, but they say allergy testing is avaiilable including the most commonly found allergens but just says contact the lab for specific allergy profiles so obviouly they do several although I havent even got prices for those allbeit out of date to give you a clue. There is labs in the Uk though

Found this another lab in the UK that does it as well.
Testing Options

You can also have patch tests done for allergys where they shave a portion of skin and introduce a lot of the most known allergens.

Best thing is to make a note of tests you may want done and asks the vets to give you an approx quote. You can get refferals to dermotology specialists
however last time I went just the consultation alone was about £175 or the initial one although luckily I was insured. That was at a veterinary specialists one for orthopaedic and the other for Neurology.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

I love your enthusiasm! I always loved science and biology at school too and from being little I always wanted to be a vet, but my interest in it got lost along the way somewhere and I took a different route. Your dogs are very lucky to have you!

Regards the tests and prices, my vets probably double or tripple the lab prices, so I'll expect the worst and then I shouldn't be too surprised at the final cost, it usually works for me  I do remember one of them saying that a skin scrape would be quite expensive though :/

Anyway, she's been about the same over the weekend, she's no more calm on the itchy side of things, and I found another flea on Saturday too. But...

I do have one (slightly big) concern. I was stroking her tonight and brushed over her paw and felt a lump. It was sticking out of her fur a bit, and on closer inspection thought it was a tick. A small, shiny, black (same colour as her skin) boulbous soft/squidgy mass about the size of a small pea stuck on her skin. After looking at it a bit more, I noticed hair growing out of it, so it isn't a tick. I have no idea what it is, maybe an infected hair follicle or something? Looks like a trip to the vets! again! You any idea what something like this could be?

One thing after another! :mad2::mad2::mad2:


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> I love your enthusiasm! I always loved science and biology at school too and from being little I always wanted to be a vet, but my interest in it got lost along the way somewhere and I took a different route. Your dogs are very lucky to have you!
> 
> Regards the tests and prices, my vets probably double or tripple the lab prices, so I'll expect the worst and then I shouldn't be too surprised at the final cost, it usually works for me  I do remember one of them saying that a skin scrape would be quite expensive though :/
> 
> ...


First thing I though of is something called an interdigital cyst or they are reffered to as that but are not actually cysts as such, as you rightly said they can be due to ingrowing hairs, another common cause especially this time of year is those darn arrow type barbed grass seeds that enter but as they are barbed they can only migrate inwards, they can set up infection and cause these things too.

Years ago when I had my samoyed I opened the door and caught the top of his toe on the door, one appeared and I though I had caused a hematoma basically a blood filled blister because they are almost black somtimes, in your case too probably as its a black dog with possibly dark skin pigment underneath. Turned out to be total co-incidence it was a grass seed in it.
When I took him to the vet.

Ive just tried to find you a pic of one to compare and there is a little pick on this link, lots of more info on them too.

Merck Veterinary Manual


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks, just had a look at it but can't really see the picture too well. Had a google for "interdigital cyst" and it brought up some images. Doesn't really look like it to be honest. 

I've just had a closer look, and it appears I had exagerated by calling it the size of a pea! Maybe, half a pea, similar to an average size hand wart, and it actually looks a bit like a wart. It also doesn't appear to be as boulbous now I've looked at it again (my memory must be terrible! I'll try take a photo tomorrow) It doesn't appear to be causing her any harm, I've touched it and pressed it a little and she doesn't seem bothered by it at all. Also the interdigital cysts all appear to be close to their toes, near the ground, but this is a bit further up, maybe where the paw meets the leg, not near the floor or toes. It doesn't look swollen and the area around it looks normal. 

Do you think it would be ok to just keep an eye on it for now, and take her to the vet if it stays, or gets any worse. I think taking her to the vet this week would just be a bucket more stress put on her under what she's already experiencing. Poor thing!

She's also put a massive crack in her e-collar and it's nearly fully split, I've put duck tape on it for now to hold it together but will be buying another one tomorrow *argh!* she's a such a pain!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Could even be a wart, dog can get them, Few of mine especially the oldies have had them over the years. Just tried to find you pics of those too apparently they are called papillomas in dogs and are caused by viral infection
which I think warts are anyway viral. No pics but found this info. 

Something you could try and you are probably going to laugh. My nan always insisted that the "milk" in dandelion stems the white sap got rid of warts some old country lady had told her, skeptical Ive actuall tried it over the years and so has my mum, and just lucky co-incidence or not it has worked. Dont know how you would stop her licking it off though. Dont suppose you have nothing to lose trying it if you can find some and can stop her licking it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sorry forgot link

Dog Warts | Types of Warts in Dogs


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

haha, that brings back memories! When I was about 5, my sister told me the stuff inside a dandelion stem is salad cream, so I actually tasted it, and I swear to this day I can still taste the stuff on my tongue! It's awful! But interesting story nonetheless, I'll give it a go if I ever get one! For now, I'll see how it goes, hopefully it is just a wart, or something not important but I'll definitely get it checked out at the vet next time we go, or if it gets any bigger or causes her problems then I won't hesitate. It is slightly buried by her fur, so maybe she's had it a while and I just haven't noticed!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> haha, that brings back memories! When I was about 5, my sister told me the stuff inside a dandelion stem is salad cream, so I actually tasted it, and I swear to this day I can still taste the stuff on my tongue! It's awful! But interesting story nonetheless, I'll give it a go if I ever get one! For now, I'll see how it goes, hopefully it is just a wart, or something not important but I'll definitely get it checked out at the vet next time we go, or if it gets any bigger or causes her problems then I won't hesitate. It is slightly buried by her fur, so maybe she's had it a while and I just haven't noticed!


Could well be that she has had it awhile, I find once they have had something you tend to be even more vigilant and through on the old check ups.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Could well be that she has had it awhile, I find once they have had something you tend to be even more vigilant and through on the old check ups.


Indeed, I've been checking every day just to make sure she hasn't got anything else wrong with her (it seriously wouldn't surprise me if she had!), and before she started itching badly I would brush her, stroke her, and spend time with her but never really check through her fur so thoroughly.

I've just been looking at photos of warts on dogs and some of them do look quite similar to it! I think I've calmed down now from the original shock of finding something foreign on her! Thanks for the link, and the info, you're an excellent source of knowledge!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Indeed, I've been checking every day just to make sure she hasn't got anything else wrong with her (it seriously wouldn't surprise me if she had!), and before she started itching badly I would brush her, stroke her, and spend time with her but never really check through her fur so thoroughly.
> 
> I've just been looking at photos of warts on dogs and some of them do look quite similar to it! I think I've calmed down now from the original shock of finding something foreign on her! Thanks for the link, and the info, you're an excellent source of knowledge!


Your very welcome.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Just a 'quick' update.

Cassie's still itching like crazy, she's still got her e-collar on. I've noticed a lot of hair missing on her back legs as I've already mentioned. Yesterday I saw a red patch in the same area which looked quite sore, a bit larger than a 50p coin on her rear leg near her bum/private bits, it was quite late at night so I had another look today and I can no longer find the red patch, so it was possibly from biting/itching at some point. Now instead it seems like there's a bit of yellow gunky dried stuff stuck in her fur and on her skin as though her skin has been emitting it. She's really sensitive in that area at the moment too. it took 2 of us to hold her down whilst I had a look. After looking online it seems the only thing I can find which is similar is seborrhea, which can be caused by skin or hormone conditions, including flea and other allergies. This would actually make sense if it was the fleas which are driving her crazy, as she might have been biting her back end due to the fleas when she's had her collar off by accident causing the sebboreah.

I treated her with Advantage spot on 2 days ago, and the whole house has had a clean and been treated. I can't see any flea bites (little red rashes) on her any more, the previous time I looked she had quite a few on her belly and I last saw a flea about 4 days ago.

Her fur all over has started to smell a bit and it feels greasy, this is since she's gone back on her Royal Canin hypoallergenic food, it was clean and didn't smell on raw.

Not really sure on next steps, whether I should keep going as is and see how things go (could it still be fleas, and they're taking a while to die?). Or I could try her back on RAW (Could it have been raw in the first place which made her itch, and not the fleas?). I really don't like how her skin/coat is on her current food and I'm a bit worried that it could be making things worse (possible seborrhea) so I'm wanting to put her back on raw, but I'm a bit hesitant and feel I'm messing her about too much.

I did come across an article on the BBC today, saying there's been a huge spike in fleas over the past few months! BBC News - Who, What, Why: Have flea numbers jumped?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Trouble is with skin problems you can start off with one problem and then get secondary problems. They start to itch and gnaw this traumatises the skin and lets infection in from bacteria from the feet and claws and mouth then you often end up with a secondary bacterial infection as well.

if shes got yellow thickened discharge from the skin especially where she has been scratching then it could be a bacterial infection, usually yellow/greenish thickened pus/dicharge often means infection. It will be sore and sensitive too from the scratching and itching.

If she is itching like crazy got hair loss and these other problems on top Im really beginning to wonder if it is demodex or sarcoptic mites, both some with intense itching and develope other problems on top.

Sarcoptic as I think I mentioned before burrow in the skin and are intensely itchy. Demodex live on dogs in small numbers they live in the hair folllicles and dont usually cause problems, but often if there is an underlying problem like an endocrine disorder or a faulty immune system they run riot and cause problems. Senotthea and greasy skin pyoderma can come along with Mites and so can bacterial skin infections.

Has cassie got any other problems apart from her skin? Like easy weight gain or its hard to keep weight off her, any signs of exercise intolerance or not being able to do exercist like she used to or anything at all you have noticed.
Hypo thyroid can cause a lot of the skin symptoms she has

Dermatologic Diseases
dry, scaly skin and dandruff / coarse, dull coat / bilateral symmetrical hair loss / rat tail, puppy coat / hyperpigmentation / seborrhea or greasy skin pyoderma or skin infections / myxedema / chronic offensive skin odor

Its a very sneaky endocrine problem and can manifest in just one symptom or a few symptoms see link below for problems it can cause as well as dermotology disease. 
Clinical Signs of Canine Hypothyroidism

Im really beginning to think it may be time to do more investigation and rule in or out mites, specific bacterial infection, fungal infections and things like yeast overgrowth.

As mentioned before with a deep skin scrape sometimes you are lucky enough to find the demodectic mite and sarcoptic mites although in the case of Sarcoptic especially its often not conclusive and can get missed only a very small percentage of sarcoptic especially is found by skin scrapes but as mentioned before there is a blood test for sarcoptic mange thats more accurate.

If she has other symptoms too on the hypo thyroid list especially then it may worth be getting a full thyroid panel blood test done.

Cant remember if I mentioned it before but have you tried the pinea ear reflex? You gently scratch the ears and the ear margins often with sarcoptic mange the back leg will start in a scratching motion when you do it.
Its not conclusive especially as if the ears havent got an infestation then it doesnt always work, but if it does work then its a possible indication. Having said that, another member who tried it, it didnt work on the ears, but if she gently scratched some of the itchy areas on the body with the hair loss then the leg started going in the reflex and her dog did have sarcoptic mange. That was missed by 4/5 vets over a period of over 8 months as well.

Edit to add mites usually tend to cause more itching in hot and humid weather.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Hi SDH...

She doesn't seem to have any other symptoms that she didn't use to have. Although gradually over the time we've had her she has started to have problems when getting up from lying down for a bit, she'll struggle, but I put this down to arthritis? I guess she doesn't have as much energy as she used to when we first got her too, she can tire out sooner now, but again I put this down to her being 9/10 years old (we don't know her exact age). Even when she's tired she will still join in playing with other dogs and her energy appears to come back, but afterwards she will walk slower and pant a bit. Apart from that she doesn't appear to have other problems, her weight is fine and it's always been easy to maintain it.

She doesn't have any reflex with the pinna reflex test on her ears, however like I mentioned in my first post she does have a bit of reflex when I itched her belly when it was itching her from flea bites, I tried it yesterday and she no longer does it so I just put this down to her having an itch due to the fleas. She is mainly itching her chin a lot, and biting her bum a lot, as well as licking her private parts, she has the odd itch to her sides using her hind legs but nowhere near as much as her bum/chin problems.

Regards the yellow substance, and her coat degrading, it has only came on in the past week since changing her food to kibble again, it used to be a bit like it when she was on kibble without the yellow flakes (before raw) but on raw it was excellent, shiny, clean, neither oily or dry and it didn't smell. The area that has a few small greasy yellow flakes, and a bit of the yellow substance on the skin, doesn't appear to have any open wounds or red/pink coloration or rashes, so can this still be an infection? It doesn't seem to be puss, just seems like some kind of greasy flaky stuff. I'm thinking the yellowy substance could be caused by this greasy coat she now has due to her change in food, along with her flea 'infestation' and her itching the skin, because from reading about seborrhea it's caused by overactive sebum which displays itself as a greasy coat. So it does fit in well.

Would mite allergies really come on so quickly in the past month, starting within 2 days from nothing (or slight itching like she used to have before raw) to intensely itchy? I don't know the real world symptoms and how fast they come on, I only know from what I have read about them. I've also read that dogs can have allergies to fleas up to 2 weeks after being bitten just once! So I'm finding due to so many things happening whilst she's been like this that it seems obvious that she will get secondary problems from the original symptoms of itching and biting.

If you recommend that I take her to the vets for tests then that is exactly what I will do. I just have so much distrust in vets, due to the things I've experienced in the past, and with them trying to make as much money out of me as possible with disregard to our animals health, that I find it difficult relying on them to tell me the truth. And this is with any vet that I have been to, not just my current particular vets. I would definitely feel more confident if I could walk in there and tell them what tests I wanted rather than relying on them to tell me. I am however concerned that if she has fleas, and she is currently having allergies to them, that this low immune system state could skew any test results and cause them to be positive when they are not, is this a possibility?

I've highlighted those in red which symptoms she does have. She has dry skin on parts of her body and greasy on others although as mentioned her skin was perfect on raw so I think that could be her food. She has bouts of hyperactivity but it doesn't usually last long, this stopped on raw and her hyperness leveld out a lot so again, I think this could be her food.

Behavioral Problems
aggression / fearful / shyness / hyperactivity / lack of concentration / fly catching (biting at imaginary flies) / star gazing (staring in space) / inappropriate elimination (urine, feces)

Neuromuscular Problems
seizures / mental dullness / exercise intolerance / neurologic signs polyneuropathy / lethargy / weight gain / cold intolerance / mood swings hyperexcitability / stunted growth / chronic infections

Dermatologic Diseases
dry, scaly skin and dandruff / coarse, dull coat / bilateral symmetrical hair loss / rat tail, puppy coat / hyperpigmentation / seborrhea or greasy skin pyoderma or skin infections / myxedema / chronic offensive skin odor

Alterations in Cellular Metabolism
weakness / stiffness / laryngeal paralysis / facial paralysis / tragic expression / knuckling or dragging feet / muscle wasting / megaesophagus / head tilt / drooping eyelids

Reproductive Disorders
infertility of either sex / lack of libido / testicular atrophy / hypospermia aspermia / prolonged interestrus interval / absence of heat cycles / silent heats / pseudopregnancy / weak, dying or stillborn pups

Cardiac Abnormalities
slow heart rate (bradycardia) / cardiac arrhythmias / cardiomyopathys

Gastrointestinal Disorders
constipation / diarrhea / vomiting

Hematological Disorders
bleeding / bone marrow failure / low red blood cells / low white blood cells / low platelets

Ocular Diseases
corneal lipid deposits / corneal ulceration / uveitis Keratococonjunctivitis / sicca or dry eye / infections of eyelid glands (Meibomian gland)

Other Associated Disorders
lgA deficiency / loss of smell (dysosmia) / loss of taste / glycosuria / chronic active hepatitis / other endocrinopathies adrenal, pancreatic, parathyroid


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

I could make an appointment to get in at the vets tonight or tomorrow, that shouldn't be a problem, and I have money to pay for it even if it's a few hundred pounds, that's not a problem. She isn't insured because of her age, the premiums went up to £60 a month, with a 50% compulsary excess so I thought it was pointless paying out that much, instead I've just saved up money in case she needs it.

I just want to really be sure it's the best thing to do, and that it's not still the fleas and her food causing this and due to her state don't want any false positives on any tests I pay for. Regards tests for hyperthyroidism, I ask for the full panel one? and regards to the mites, I ask for a skin scrape AND a blood test for them? What should I do if they tell me I don't need the mite blood test, or only a half arsed hyperthyroidism test? I don't want to come accross that I know everything lol Also, to check for bacteria, fungal and yeast infections, does that come under the same test as the skin scrape or do I need to ask for that too? What's best for demodex? Or does the blood test for sarcoptic mites show demodetic mites too?

Another thing, if I go to the vets and they offer steroids/antibiotics or any other medication/creams, for the itching, should I accept these? She's never had steroids before, and the only cream I have is fuciderm. I hate antibiotics with a passion.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

As she has had a good response to the raw before and a lot of it if not all cleared up, and a lot has re-appeared with putting her back on commercial food, then first off tbh I would get her back on the raw.

Its possible she has still got a reaction to the flea bites it hasnt been that long after all, plus the extra itching scratching and gnawing wouldnt have done the state of her skin any favours.

Usually with trying diets you have to give 4/6 weeks at least. Try the diet again as it seemed to have such a good reaction before, then if shes still having problems in 4/6 weeks then maybe have a re-think then and think about getting some tests done if need be.

If the diet hadnt cleared it up before I would probably say think about tests sooner rather then later, but as she did have a good response before then its well worth trying again and see what happens I would have thought.

You could try a supplement as well like Efavet that can be brought on line and is used in dermatitis and as an aid to dogs with allergies, its a vet strength one but as its only a supplement you can buy it easy enough on line.
I use vet medic they do it Im pretty sure used them for years and had no problems
Online Vet | Get Cheap Pet Medicine and Treatments Online From Vet-Medic - Vet-Medic

Might even be worth trying the dermacton products, again they are all natural and not wildly expensive, many an owner has been trearing their hair out over itchy dogs and its worked well. 
Dermacton - Skin Relief for Dogs with Itchy Skin


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> I could make an appointment to get in at the vets tonight or tomorrow, that shouldn't be a problem, and I have money to pay for it even if it's a few hundred pounds, that's not a problem. She isn't insured because of her age, the premiums went up to £60 a month, with a 50% compulsary excess so I thought it was pointless paying out that much, instead I've just saved up money in case she needs it.
> 
> I just want to really be sure it's the best thing to do, and that it's not still the fleas and her food causing this and due to her state don't want any false positives on any tests I pay for. Regards tests for hyperthyroidism, I ask for the full panel one? and regards to the mites, I ask for a skin scrape AND a blood test for them? What should I do if they tell me I don't need the mite blood test, or only a half arsed hyperthyroidism test? I don't want to come accross that I know everything lol Also, to check for bacteria, fungal and yeast infections, does that come under the same test as the skin scrape or do I need to ask for that too? What's best for demodex? Or does the blood test for sarcoptic mites show demodetic mites too?
> 
> Another thing, if I go to the vets and they offer steroids/antibiotics or any other medication/creams, for the itching, should I accept these? She's never had steroids before, and the only cream I have is fuciderm. I hate antibiotics with a passion.


As i said above try the raw and maybe some natural things, if she isnt getting better or still has problems, if she needs tests in the end we can have another discussion and Ill guide you through them.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Righto, I don't know if I can last another 6 weeks with her like she is! I apologise for all of the questions, I'm just getting concerned and feel overwhelmed and lost as to what I should be doing, due to the constant changes in her condition and the multiple things that could be contributing to it all it's just so confusing. If it was just fleas and she had no other things like food allergies etc I could easily cope!

I was concerned about putting her back on raw because that is when she started itching badly... she did get fleas at the same time so it could be that but again there is still a possibility the raw food could have contributed to the itching, despite it making her coat amazing and clean it didn't smell at all, in fact I used to love smelling it because it was such a change in her! But surely, she's been off raw for a good few weeks now so if it was contributing then the itching would have stopped. I could give raw another go, and see how things go,

Regards to the yellow stuff near her bum, would you reccomend that I just ignore it? Or should I put something on it. Maybe I could give her a bath and see if it helps? I'll have another look tonight and make sure I can rule out any other odd things going on down there.

I won't set a timescale when I'll next make a decision, as it always goes out of the window because her condition changes constantly, so I'll just go off what I see.


Edit.
Just been looking at the Dermacton link you sent. I'll give the shampoo (soap bar) and the cream a go, and see if it helps. I can bath her once a week with it and put the cream on daily that way. Do you think it would be safe to use near her mouth and near her bum/privates?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Righto, I don't know if I can last another 6 weeks with her like she is! I apologise for all of the questions, I'm just getting concerned and feel overwhelmed and lost as to what I should be doing, due to the constant changes in her condition and the multiple things that could be contributing to it all it's just so confusing. If it was just fleas and she had no other things like food allergies etc I could easily cope!
> 
> I was concerned about putting her back on raw because that is when she started itching badly... she did get fleas at the same time so it could be that but again there is still a possibility the raw food could have contributed to the itching, despite it making her coat amazing and clean it didn't smell at all, in fact I used to love smelling it because it was such a change in her! But surely, she's been off raw for a good few weeks now so if it was contributing then the itching would have stopped. I could give raw another go, and see how things go,
> 
> ...


Think Ive possibly miss understood, I took it that all the skin problems had cleared up when she was on the raw and its only re-occured badly since being off it, that then may be a different thing.

If its a food allergy and assuming you have eradicated the allergens from her diet then that should sort it, if the raw didnt make a complete difference with the itching then either she must have been still having something in the diet that she was allergic too (and some dogs can even be allergic to certain meat proteins doesnt have to be just grains and gluten) or its not a food allergy anyway if that makes sense.

That will leave environmental allergies, grasses pollens, dust mites storage mites are all common ones so we could still be left with those possibly. Bearing in mind too you get seasonal itch from grasses and pollens mostly just at certain times of year, so could it be that if she goes where grasses are
that was why she was still itching and the raw was in fact helping.

Then if it is mites of some sort or a bacterial or fungal infection then it would just carry on regardless of what you do especially mites, until the mites are dead and the skins recovered, same with a bacterial or fungal infection until you get rid of it, then likely whatever you do will carry on.

Same with endocrine problems if it was Hypo thyroid until its established she has it and if she has gets the relevant treatment then again you will still have the problem.

Its hard because you are working blind and she has had no treatment veterinary wise for it or has she? I sussed the other dogs possible mites because she had had steroid treatment. Steroid treatment if it is an allergic response usually mostly works if its an allergy. Admitted when they come off them if the allergen is still there it re-ooccurs but it does give you a clue. As the other dog had no effects and was still itching with steroids I ruled out the allergy.
The other dog too has antibiotics which did work for awhile or eased some of the problem, obviously he must have had a bacterial infection too due to the traumatising the skin with the itching and scratching, but again the itching was still there so it just wasnt bacterial, which is how I sussed it was likely mites and not allergy or just bacterial infection. That left only mites or fungal but I have a feeling he may have been treated for fungal too.

So that really leaves you with an option, go on trying to find out if it is an allergy which by trial and error could take forever and then you might not be able to find it anway just by chance, especially as we dont know what food, and or/if its environmental allergy as well.

2) option would be too try steroid treatment and antibiotics and see if they clear it up, if they do at least while he is on the treatment then you know if its an allergy or not but we still dont know what if it comes back.

3) option, do a deep skin scrape (bearing in mind it may or may not show mites as its not conclusive especially with sarcoptic even more) however you may be lucky sometimes you are. A culture from the skin scrape and hair sample would deffinately show bacterial infection and fungal infection and you could get the right treatment, but also bare in mind if the bacterial or fungal is a secondary infection and the root causse isnt found then you still have a problem and it can re-occur again unless bacterial or fungal is the primary cause in the first place of course.
In addition to this perhaps too have the blood test for antibodies to sarcoptic mange which is more accurate. With both at least you could rule in or out, 
Mites, specific bacterial and specific fungal.

4)Option if the above all proves to not be that, then that would leave, a Full thyroid blood test to rule out thyroid as a problem and underlying cause.

5) if Thyroid should be ruled out, then that leaves you the Blood tests or tests to look for specific allergens so you can be sure to rule them out from her diet and/or the environment.

Hope I havent waffled too much and it makes sense. Its just a suggestion as to order, you could of course do ones first to rule it out. If she was insured and had good cover without all the add ons, I would say go for it and do the lot, but if you have to pay, probably better to do it in stages and work your way through as a process of elimination and hope we find the cause sooneer then later.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks SDH.

It's my fault for being so confusing, so many things have happened in the past couple of months that it's difficult explaining it all easily. I'll try my best!

since we got her she's been itchy, not massively, and it never caused any problems with hotspots or infections etc. She's always had runny eyes, runny nose, hair loss around her eyes and bad anal glands. She has always been on commercial kibble since we got her.

About 6 month ago the vets reccomended trying hypoallergenic food to see if it cleared up. It didn't make a difference after 4 months. About 2 months ago I tried her on RAW, the first 2 weeks made a difference, her coat went really nice, her breath didn't smell, her nose stopped running, and her itching didn't seem as bad. The 2 weeks wasn't long enough to see if her itching would stop completely. After the 2 weeks of being on RAW she started itching like crazy, much worse than she ever had before it was like a completely different thing, and caused hotspots. A couple of days after she started itching she started paying more attention to her back end, biting and licking, causing hair loss and this yellow substance. We found fleas on her so I thought that could be why she had started itching like crazy. To make sure it wasn't an allergy to the raw food I took her of and put her back on hypoallergenic kibble.

As said, I don't mind paying for the tests, even all of them in one go, it doesn't bother me, and the money is no objection as my number 1 priority is to get her well. I just don't want any allergies to fleas etc playing a role in the test results, and due to her 2 week on raw being a good 2 weeks it seems the right thing to try it again. It's just due to her going extra itchy after the 2 weeks makes me wonder whether it was due to the fleas we found or a raw food allergy or both. Switching her back to her hypoallergenic food could have made everything worse due to her fur going greasy.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Thanks SDH.
> 
> It's my fault for being so confusing, so many things have happened in the past couple of months that it's difficult explaining it all easily. I'll try my best!
> 
> ...


Did you change anything in the diet after the first couple of weeks can you remember? Say give her a different meat when she may have been on just one for the first two weeks. If you did maybe try that meat and keep her on it only as with anything else you gave in those first two weeks.

If the flea allergy may have contributed and thrown the results off make sure you keep those up to date too, the house has been treated now too so that will give at least a fair shot to see if that makes any difference.

It is the time for seasonal itch so we have to think about that as another factor too.

I know lyceum on here tried the Dermacton products and his dog was itching and scratching like mad and it had an effect over night literally if I remember rightly Im pretty certain it had lumps and bumps and a rash aswell, so how about ordering some and trying it and putting her back on the raw. As it did initially make a difference then maybe the process of elimination should be allergies first and a couple of non expensive natural things that have been know to work in other dogs when things have failed before.

Maybe get the allergy blood tests done first instead, and concentrate on one thing at a time ruling things out it you need to as you go, you may hit lucky first off or after a couple of things and not have to pay for the lot, rather then jump in and do the whole lot some of which might not be needed after all.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just noticed the time, I had better go and start looking like I have done just more then walk the dogs and sat on here allday

If you want to continue later on or this evening Ill be back on then, so Ill catch up and reply when I get back.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks very much SDH, I really appreciate your time! I'll reply to your post now whilst I have something on my mind, but I'll make another post later tonight as well, feel free to reply whenever your not busy I'm in no rush 

What I am worried about is:

The original itching could have been caused by fleas or allergies to raw. I changed her food to kibble just in case it was a raw allergy, this could have made her fur greasy at the same time as her itching due to the fleas/allergy, causing secondary problems like skin infections, seborrhea etc. The flea or allergy itching could now have gone, but she's left with these secondary conditions and that could be the reason she is still itching. So would it be wise to take her to the vets to make sure she doesn't have any infections due to the itching and get them to look at this greasy yellowy skin flake stuff? That way it rules out secondary problems from her flea allergy. Or as you say should I just try the Dermacton stuff, and give her a bath, as well as changing her diet back to raw to sort her skin greasiness out? A bath might be all she needs for the yellow stuff!

I'm going to buy some Dermacton now, I'll get the soap and cream, she doesn't like sprays lol

update:
Just purchased the cream, shampoo bar, and both the ear drops and ear cleaner. I don't think she's ever had her ears cleaned and they do seem red now and then so hopefully it might help that. I hate buying anything on a friday because I know it won't arrive untill middle of the following week grr..


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Thanks SDH.
> 
> It's my fault for being so confusing, so many things have happened in the past couple of months that it's difficult explaining it all easily. I'll try my best!
> 
> ...


Ive been doing some researching because I didnt know before that she came like it and as well as the skin there was runny eyes and nose etc etc aswell, so that started ringing other bells too. Looks like we are on the right track though with what we had figured out as possible so far.

In a bit of a rush so have added links to with explanation.
Once you said about the eyes etc as well I remembered Atopy Inhalant allergy. With it comes the dermatitis, puritis itching etc.
Atopy in Dogs | Symptoms
Above is one of the basic site things with basic info save me typing it all.

Looks like though we were on he right track because as far as the skin part of it goes other things can mimic Atopy too, and/or come as problems along with the allergy itself, so we were right to consider mites, bacterial infections,fungal infections etc either as the first cause of secondary along with the allergy. The Atopy inhalant allergy can be seasonal too or worse at certain times of the year.

Atopy (Inhalant Allergy)
The above explains more about Inhalant Atopy and treating it, they say that although steroids does the job which we had worked out if it allergy, other things like skin supplements high in fatty acids like Efavet, Viacutan plus etc
and bathing in anti allergie shampoos should be used as much as poossible instead, so the dermacton is on track too and its worked for several other members as well so at least is a step in the right direction, so looks like a supplement to like Efavet especially that is used in dermatitis and allergic skin
conditions may well be worth a shot.

Finally I found this, have scanned through it qick so far but it gives a diagnosis and treatment plan, and that includes ruling out sarcoptic and demodectic mange, bacterial infections and fungal as well as diagnosing the atopy inhalent allergy its self. He could have a food allergy as well, but as one of the common allergens is storage and dust mites and storage I think come in dried food or thats one source may explain while better on raw until another allergen grass pollen the fleas kicked in and upset things again

Its all on this one by prepared there is a lot of it but as its from dept of veterinary clinical sciences and by a canine dermotologist on the subject safe to say its accurate
http://rottweilerhealth.org/pdfs/march_derm_hiller_02.pdf

Speak later, dogs are rioting for their dinner now


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

wrote this before your last post, so I'll be reading your post after posting this:

Ok I've been reading through your posts again, and drawn up an action plan, which is pretty much what you wrote in your past post but I understand it better now.



> 1. Try her back on raw chicken, and use Dermacton (just for the symptoms).
> if it doesn't clear up do the following:
> 
> 2. Try her on steroids, if she gets better then I know it's allergies.
> ...


I've read that the thyroid results can come back as a false positive if the dog has a concurrent systemic disease in which case a TSH stimulation test needs to be done. Do you know any more information on this? And should a TSH stimulation test be done all the time when the thyroid tests come back low?

Could I merge 2, 3 and 4 together, have scrapes/blood taken and then immediately start her on steroids whilst waiting for the test results, or could the steroids mess up further tests that might need to be taken? It might be cheaper to do it all in one vet visit if that's the case and having her thyroid tested would put my mind at peace (providing it came back clear) because my last cat had thyroid problems and kidney disease. Talking of which, could a step 5 be to check other organ functions with more blood tests?

Due to biting and scratching her back end a lot, could it be any other infection, like a bladder infection or something with her bum that I would need to get checked out? She's had her anal glands emptied in the past 3 weeks so it shouldn't be that.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Wow, talk about a match of symptoms, she has every single one of them! I'm about to give the other PDF article a read, it looks good. Shall reply shortly.



> Symptoms of Atopy in Dogs
> 
> Owners of affected dogs may notice one or more of the following symptoms, which are the hallmarks of canine atopic dermatitis:
> 
> ...


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

(Going to title each paragraph because I can see this getting a bit long!)

*Staphylococcal Pyoderma*
OK, given it a read, albeit a difficult one! Lots of terms I'm not familiar with, one of them being Staphylococcal Pyoderma, which is supposedly in 68% of dogs with atopic dermatitis. Do you think the yellow greasy crusty flakes could be this near her bum, or just seborrhoea? I've never heard of it before but reading into it it appears as crusty skin lesions with reddened itchy skin. She doesn't appear to have any lesions nor red skin, just patches of hair loss between her legs and on her back leg near her bum where she's been biting.

*Fleas*
What really stood out in the last article was the inclusion of flea allergy dermatitis a lot
"_Although definitive data are lacking, studies suggest that dogs with atopic dermatitis are predisposed to developing flea allergy dermatitis._" and as you know, she's been crazy with them fleas.

*Steroids*
There seems to be a bit of conflicting information, either that or I'm misunderstanding it, about the use of steroids. The last article says you shouldn't use them on the first couple of pages, then goes on to say you should administer 0.5mg of prednisone per kg of body weight. Looking into prednisone, it's a steroid... :/

*Shampoos*
One of the shampoos the second article advises is the chlorhexidine based ones. I've tried looking but it seems to be prescription only. It's supposed to treat bacterial and fungal infections, and kick start helping the pruritus, so it might be worth a visit to the vets to try and get some, but for the time being I could really do with a shampoo that I can buy in the shops tomorrow (pets at home etc.) because the Dermacton probably won't arrive until late next week with it being a bank holiday Monday and I don't fancy waiting that long without bathing her with something. I could even go to the vets tomorrow and explain everything hoping they will give me some, providing I can get an appointment. The other shampoo the second article mentions: Allermyl, appears to be over the shelf, and can be bought without a prescription (linky). Do you think this would be as good as a medicated chlorhexidine shampoo? "_A new shampoo called Allermyl [R] is formulated specifically for atopic animals and promises to be even more effective at relieving skin irritation and itching than other shampoos._" If it was any good and would do the same as chlorhexidine medicated ones, I could see if any shops nearby stock it this weekend.

*Fatty acid supplements*
Regards to the Efavet and Viacutan Plus, it just seems very, very, expensive for a dog cassie's size. She'd need between 4-8 tablets if the directions are anything to go by, costing about £40-50 per month, it's just not something that I could afford for the long term, especially as it's just EPA, fatty omega 3 acids. Do you think salmon oil would do the same thing, as it's high in omega 3, and quite a bit cheaper. Currently 500ml on amazon for £10, which would last 2 month.

According to all of those documents, it does seem as you say that we're on the correct treatment path. She itches exactly where the article states, her snout, lips, chin, eyes, ears, groin, belly, base of tail, and bum. I just feel bad that I'm not actively doing anything to help her right this second, and what made me feel worse was this comment in the second article, "_Just using an E-collar, T-shirt, or booties on the feet to prevent the dog from scratching and chewing on itself is inhumane and doesnt address the underlying problem._" That's all I feel like I'm doing right now! I feel so bad about it 

I need to work out tomorrow whether I'm going to get her in at the vets this weekend or to wait for the Dermacton and just change her food for now, I'll have a good think about it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> (Going to title each paragraph because I can see this getting a bit long!)
> 
> *Staphylococcal Pyoderma*
> OK, given it a read, albeit a difficult one! Lots of terms I'm not familiar with, one of them being Staphylococcal Pyoderma, which is supposedly in 68% of dogs with atopic dermatitis. Do you think the yellow greasy crusty flakes could be this near her bum, or just seborrhoea? I've never heard of it before but reading into it it appears as crusty skin lesions with reddened itchy skin. She doesn't appear to have any lesions nor red skin, just patches of hair loss between her legs and on her back leg near her bum where she's been biting.
> ...


Staphylococcal infections are bacterial based anyway, so we were on the right track with that.

Did you order the Demacton shampoo bar thats anti bacterial and anti fungal too.

Malaseb shampoo script or vet only and contains chlorhexidine and Miconazole
and that is anti bacterial anti fungal controls seborrhoeic dermatitis.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Yup, i ordered the shampoo, cream, ear drops and ear cleaner. I'm just worried that they'll arrive too late, as I wanted something sooner to bath her with. With the shampoo being antibacterial and antifungal, do you think it would get rid of yeast, and bacterial infections such as Staphylococcal (if she had it) or would it need antibiotics?

It might be best for her to have a visit to the vets tomorrow, not for tests just yet but to cover everything with them so they have an idea of how she is, and I'll try and get some prices for the tests available, as well as some medicated shampoo for her so I at least feel like I'm doing something rather than just waiting around for a delivery. I'll ask for the Malaseb one you mention if they have it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

This is what it says for initial treatment after tests have been done.

Initial treatment
Depending on what you discover
through diagnostic tests, treatment at
this time varies. Administer oral antibiotics
and topical antimicrobials (e.g.
antibacterial shampoos, sprays, and
conditioners) if staphylococcal pyoderma
is present. If yeast dermatitis is
present, begin topical (if only one or
two sites are involved) or systemic (if
there is more generalized involvement)
antimycotics. Control fleas, if indicated.
And if scabies is suspected,
use appropriate insecticides.
This is not the best time to try
symptomatic anti-inflammatory treatment
(e.g. antihistamines, essential
fatty acids), because they often ineffectively
ineffectively
control pruritus associated
with complicating factors such as secondary
infections, flea allergy dermatitis,
or cutaneous adverse food reactions.
Crisis-busting doses of
prednisone (0.5 to 1 mg/kg orally
once a day for three days only) can
be used if the pruritus is severe. The
primary aim at this time is to eliminate
perpetuating factors and concurrent
diseases or differential diagnoses
that are most easily managed. Once
this is achieved, and if the patient still
has pruritic dermatitis, the possible
causes of the residual disease are
much more restricted and usually
more clearly defined.

I think the Steroid is only as a last resort as a "crisis buster" if you have to sort of thing.

The diagnostic work up for diagnosis of the initital treatment is this
If a dogs history and clinical signs are suggestive of atopic dermatitis,
identify and control the perpetuating factors, including pyoderma, Malassezia
species infection, otitis externa, demodicosis, and chronic skin pathology.
Identify and treat the dog for flea allergy dermatitis and scabies, if indicated.

So working through, she has most of the symptoms as per that list for atopy
we established that. It says identify and control other factors and they are all the things we came up with more or less. bacterial, demodectic mites,sarcoptic mite,fungal infections, and flea allergy so she has already been treated for fleas

The other tests seem to be what we discussed before, deep skin scrapes, cultures and perhaps the sarcoptic blood test bearing in mind the skin scrapes are not conclusive

Initial consultation
If a patients history and clinical
signs are suggestive of atopic dermatitis,
you must identify and control
perpetuating factors and any concurrent
conditions. A definitive diagnosis
of atopic dermatitis is uncommonly
atopic dermatitis is uncommonly
made at the initial visit.
To identify and control perpetuating
factors, obtain skin surface specimens
from numerous affected sites,
and perform a cytologic examination,
looking for bacteria and yeast. Perform
deep skin scrapings from numerous
sites for Demodex species.
Submit swab specimens from any intact
pustules for bacterial culture if
there has been a poor response to
prior antibiotic therapy. Cytologic examination
and bacterial culture of
specimens from affected ears are also
indicated. If a patients ears are severely
affected and are the primary
problem, a full workup of otitis externa
and otitis media is necessary.
Since otitis media may be present in
up to 83% of dogs with chronic otitis
externa,22 diagnostic procedures
aimed at identifying otitis media are
indicated, including a radiographic
examination, cytologic examination
and bacterial culture of specimens
from the external and middle ears,
external ear canal flushing, visual examination
of the tympanic membrane,
myringotomy, and flushing of
the middle ear.
A history or clinical signs suggestive
of flea allergy dermatitis is a strong indication
for aggressive flea adulticidal
treatment in all animals in the household
and control of immature flea life
stages in the environment.
If history or physical examination
findings are consistent with scabies,
perform multiple superficial skin
scrapings for scabies mites or eggs. If
the skin scraping results are negative,
a moderate to high index of suspicion
for scabies should prompt specific
(e.g. selamectin, limesulfur,
ivermectin).

Differential diagnoses that mimic
atopic dermatitis
The associated history and clinical
signs of several conditions are similar
to those of atopic dermatitis. These
conditions must be ruled out before
atopic dermatitis can be diagnosed.
The history and clinical signs of
cutaneous adverse food reactions are
often identical to those of atopic dermatitis,
and a hypoallergenic elimination
food trial is necessary to distinguish
between the two diseases. But
some features may be more suggestive
of cutaneous adverse food reactions,
such as a very young (< 6
months) or very old (> 7 years) age
at onset, severe pruritus from the
outset, consistently poor response to
glucocorticoid therapy, and concurrent
gastrointestinal signs.3
Sarcoptes scabiei infestations are
characterized by intense pruritus of
generally poorly haired areas (e.g.
pinna, face, elbows, hocks) and a
papular to crusting dermatitis. They
respond poorly to glucocorticoids.
Although these features are most similar
to those in dogs with chronic
topic dermatitis, scabies should be a
differential diagnosis in all cases of
atopic dermatitis.
Contact dermatitis is characterized
by glucocorticoid-responsive pruritus
of poorly haired areas such as the
muzzle, chin, inner pinna, axilla,
groin, perineum, and between the
digits. However, because contact dermatitis
is far less common than atopic
dermatitis, it is usually very low on
the list of differential diagnoses unless
there is strong circumstantial evidence
in a patients history.
On rare occasions, dogs with histories
and clinical features that are

The diagnostic plan
The following provides a road map
to help you identify and control perpetuating
factors, concurrent disease,
and identical differential diagnoses
(Figure 10). Once these have been
resolved, residual pruritic dermatitis
is almost certainly due to atopic dermatitis.
Allergy testing and specific
treatments for atopic dermatitis are
far more rewarding in these circumstances.
Be sure to discuss your diagnostic
plan with the owners (see
boxed text).
In uncommon and rare circumstances,
patients with conditions not
addressed in this review may present
with a history and clinical signs similar
to those of atopic dermatitis. These
conditions include other allergic dermatoses
(staphylococcal hypersensitivity,
hormonal hypersensitivity,
intestinal parasite hypersensitivity); infestation
with parasites such as mites,
lice, or ticks; helminthic infections
(hookworm dermatitis, Pelodera
strongyloides dermatitis); dermatophytosis;
or demodicosis.

Although Ive just realised ive done it in the wrong order, the above is Initial consultation, diagnostic work ups (tests) and then Initital treatment. Then after the initial treatment it goes on with evaluation and then going further from there.

Most we discussed earlier but wasnt sure what order at the time if you remember.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

I understood from it that basically you need to rule out and treat anything/everything else to be able to diagnose it properly. So going off that do you think it's best to have all of the tests done? I can try and get an appointment at the vets tomorrow if that is the case.

I could ask for :
Blood test for sarcoptic mites
Skin scrape for bacteria/fungal infection & demodectic mange
Full panel thyroid test (I'd like one if it's not tooo expensive)

Just had a read about the sarcoptic mite blood test.
"_Recently a blood test called an 'ELISA' has been produced to identify sarcoptes infected dogs. As no test is full proof the major drawback with it being animals with concurrent house dust mite allergies will cross react, falsely demonstrating positive to the test. Due to this it is not widely used in the field. _" linky Seems like sarcoptic mites are half impossible to diagnose with the skin scrape only showing 20% of the time, and the blood test giving false results 

I've just read that Advocate kills fleas, sarcoptic mange, and demodetic mites, I could kill 3 birds with 1 stone and ask the vet if they'd prescribe that instead of the skin scrape / blood test seeing as they'd probably treat her for sarcoptic mites even if the tests came back negative. Though they probably wouldn't do that :\

Update:
Bought some hibiscrub from local pharmacy, decent price for once, £8 for 500ml. I've read in a couple of threads on here that it does a similar job to the medicated shampoos as it contains chlorhexadine for bacterial infections, so will give her a bath tonight and apply a watered down solution of it to her itchy areas just to prevent or help any bacterial infections from her itching, then apply sudocrem afterwards as also read that it can dry the skin a bit.

I had another poke around her back end today and noticed the yellowy gooey flaket skin stuff is no longer there, instead its dry grey scales of skin stuck in her fur so the bath might help that out. It could have been caused by a hotspot which I might have missed. I've already said but I managed to get her in at the vets on Wednesday so I have a few days to get all my facts together.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Tis Tuesday, and she's still no different, in fact her itching seems progressively worse each day. Haven't found any more fleas on her and can't find any flea bites. She still back on raw chicken, so its been a few days off kibble now. Im getting psyched up for the vets tomorrow, really nervous as I've never really requested things before, just left everything in their hands. Just want to check that I've got everything covered.

Skin scrape for demodetic and sarcoptic mange, bacterial and fungal infections.
Blood test for sarcoptic mange.
Full 6 panel thyroid test.

I've been reading up on the thyroid tests and it seems like they rarely do the 6panel one in the UK, will they have the ability to actually do it? I was reading a forum and came across this, so was wondering why a 6 panel is more beneficial for the first thyroid test.
"6 panel variety would just help to determine the different causes of the thyroid problems ie the thyroid itself, the pituitary, protein, etc. As long and TSH and T4 are normal, you can pretty much be assured thyroid function is normal."

Do you think they would try putting her on antibiotics? If so what would this help with, just bacterial infections? Regards to steroids, should I try her on these yet? And do you know what steroids she would likely be put on?

Sorry for all the questions, just feel nervous about tomorrow and the more info I'm armed with the better ill be able to request from the vets what I want.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

As a sort of recap, based on what I knew already and what you and I have researched to confirm things. It looks like skin problems can be a what come first the chicken or the egg scenario.

Due to cassie as well has having the skin problems, had the runny nose eyes etc
Its sounds like part if not all of the problem could be an allergy possibly, especially after you looked at and said she had all the symptoms of inhalant atopy. As a lot of the common allergens in atopy inhalant allergy are House dust mites, storage mites, pollens, grasses and Molds and can be worse certain times of year summer/Autumn being the worse and her skin has flared up worse then ever recently (from what I understand) then it does look as if allergy is the problem or part of it anyway. Any allergy is an immune system response the immune system goes overboard.
This is what the Lab I use say on Blood allergy testing
Allergy Testing
Allergy testing is available including the most commonly found allergens. 
Please contact the laboratory for details of specific allergy profiles.

Other skin problems though can be either a cause on their own or secondary which means they can be the only reason or in addition to another problem.

Bacterial Infection - can cause skin problems alone, but in cassies case they could well be secondary (additional) they are common with itchy skin problems as the scratching and itching breaks and traumatises the skin and bacteria from nails and feet lets the bacterial infection into the skin and sets that up.

Fungal Infection - again fungal infections like ringworm can be a problem on their own and cause problems, but again with the scratching and traumatising the skin and other problems can be secondary ie additional.

Ear Mites - Ear mites in their own right can cause ear itching and scratching and also ear mites can live on areas of the body too. Or be an addition problem.

Demodex or Demodectic Mites - Most dogs carry a few but with a healthy immune system and healthy skin and coat numbers are kept down and dont cause problems. Again Demodex can be a problem on its own and a main cause, or a secondary (additional) problem. Especially in a dog with a not good immune system and other skin problems too. Demodex live in the hair follicles and you can get two types. Either localised patches of it and I think less then 4 or 5 patches is classed as localised, or generalised wider areas affected.

Sarcoptic Mites - Live and burrow in the skin which is where the eggs are laid, intensely itchy, worse when the weathers warmer or the dogs hot. Again can cause a problem on their own, with additional bacterial or fungal infection present because of the scratching skin trauma or with a weakened immune sytem and skin in the first place more likely secondary (additional) to other things as well can be a prinary cause.

Thyroid problems - Causes many different symptoms and problems but skin being one of them, I think too you said Cassie had other possible symptoms that can be linked to hypo-thyroid anyway? - Dry scaly skin and dandruff, coarse dull coat, bilateral symmetrical hair loss, rat tail, hyper pigmentation, senorrhea or greasy skin pyoderma, skin infections, Myxedma, chronic skin odour. Coat can appear a funny or odd colour too, doesnt moult properly and if you have Ops and the coats shaved doesnt grow back properly or really slow growing.

Considering above possible causes Options:-

Allergys - Testings available, either blood tests, or patch skin tests where they shave an area and introduce various known common allergens. This will identify the allergens causing problems - so that they can be eradicated where possible.
Or treatment/try treatment anyway. Usually for shorter term to see if there is a response - steroid treatment usually injection or from what Ive read better oral tablets by way of prednisone.
Downsides steroids can have side effects usually - drinking more urinating more and increased appetite. Not a long term solution because of continued side effects and other problems. Also wont tell you what the allergens are in the first place, but if you get a response and it works then at least you know its likely allergy or allergies at least a big part of the problem. If the allergen is still present when they come off them then its likely to flare up again. But at least you know allergy is part of it if you get a response while on them.
Other downsides as they work by suppressing the immune system. Other things like demodex and sarcoptic that relies on a healthy immune system for keeping it at bay and things like bacterial infection could become worse. Unless you know for sure that these are present or likely/possibly present and treat with antibiotics and mite treatment at the same time.

Earmites - sarcoptic mites and Demodex Mites. Options for diagnosis.
Deep skin scrapes and for Sarcoptic mites a blood test available to look for antibodies to mange mites. Skin scrapes you may be lucky and find them, but sarcoptic especially often gets missed with skin scrapes. I always thought blood tests were more accurate, but looking at the Lab info on the test, it does say that if you do the test too soon before sufficient antibodies have built up they can not be conclusive, which is where your info may have originated from what you found about the test being questionable which is plausible they were done too soon.
This is what the Lab I use advises on sarcoptic blood tests
Sarcoptic Mange Antibody (SMA)
It is useful to be able to make a firm diagnosis for the presence of sarcoptic mange mites as this helps to choose the right treatment regime especially where there may be breed sensitivity to some drugs. Skin scrapes often fail to detect the presence of mites due to the difficulty in actually finding the mites. 
A serum sample taken 4 - 8 weeks post infection will detect the presence of sarcoptic mange antibodies (IgG). A borderline result should be repeated in two weeks.

Options for treatment of ear mites, demodex mites and sarcoptic Mites.
Advocate - Kills ear mites single dose, Demodex Mites monthly treatment for between 2 and 4 months needed. Manufacturers claim a single dose for Sarcoptic although tbh I would do at least 2 maybe 3, when these had it I was given Stronghold and told to do it 2 months running at least. Checked on stronghold and whilst it does sarcoptic and other things it doesnt appear to do demodex mites.
Other option for Demodex mites and sarcoptic mites is Aludex baths instead see link but this is all they do, older treatment then the spot ons, but Ive used it for sarcoptic pre-spot ons and is effective
Aludex 50 g/a concentrate for cutaneous solution - Product Data Sheet

Flea- Allergies, which we stongly suspect Cassies got as well. Again the allergy blood tests would likely confirm it, However Advocate according to the manufacturers is effective against flea allergy dermatitis as it kills fleas on contact and they dont have to bite, bearing in mind its usually the flea saliva that causes the allergy, that should if its as good as the manufacturers say, together with appropriate environment flea sprays that are long lasting like Acclaim 2000, should hopefully now sort that one.

Bacterial Infections - Diagnosis skin scrapes and cultures to identify if bacterial infection present and which specific ones. Probably likely there is bacterial infection present due to the itching and scratching and things like hot spots.
Treatment options, wide spectrum antibiotics especially those appropriate for skin infections. Or if skin scrape is done and culture then right ABs assured first off.

Fungal Infections - certain types of fungal infections will "glow" under a special lamp called a woods lamp takes a couple of seconds in the surgery, but not all types of fungal infection will glow under a woods lamp. Skin scrapes and cultures more accurate. Treatments I believe but you will have to check me on this one is
anti fungal washes and I believe surolan (sp) can be used too.

Thyroid Problems - A special blood test is required. You will need to have the blood taken before she has any steroid treatment and antibiotics or medication.
Steroid treatment can supress the thyroid function as can certain antibiotics and other meds. Especially sulphonomide (sp) type of antibiotics for sure can. 
Ideally the lab likes if possible 4 weeks med free (although mine you can state what meds they are on if any so they will know if likely to affect results)
I actually have a Total T4, Free T4, TSH and TGAA (thyroglobulin anuto antibodies done) you can have a T3 done at my lab separate to the above which is their Plantingum profile.
TGAA will tell you if it is hypo thyroid whether its the auto immune version (body attacking its own thyroid gland) or idopathic, basically unknown cause. The Free T4 and total T4 and the TSH (Thyroid secreting hormone) usually gives a pretty good picture because in a knackered thyroid for whatever reason, the Total and free T4 will be very low or at the low end of normal on the reference range (low end of normal isnt normal BTW but you will often be told it is) and the TSH will be high. The reason the TSH is high is because the pituatory gland is kicking it out by the bucket load, usually in a normal working thyroid the TSH is produced to tell the thyroid gland to get cracking making more T3 and T4 of the various types of hormone thats needed as reserves are getting low, with a knackered thyroid gland it cant make the T3 and T4 so the Pitautory throws out more TSH but it wont do any good if that makes sense as the Thyroid gland just cant make any or not in sufficient amounts anyway. (thats the potted uncomplicated explanation anyway.)

Hope this helps, if there is anything your not sure of, want to discuss in more details or need further help or explanations give me a shout x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> I understood from it that basically you need to rule out and treat anything/everything else to be able to diagnose it properly. So going off that do you think it's best to have all of the tests done? I can try and get an appointment at the vets tomorrow if that is the case.
> 
> I could ask for :
> Blood test for sarcoptic mites
> ...


Sorry missed this one the other day somehow thats why I didnt reply, hopefully Ive answerd this too, in the post Ive just done x


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks SDH, that was an extremely helpful post. Although I did find the thyroid part a bit difficult to understand It seems quite complex so will give it another read tomorrow when I'm fully alert. I've written some notes to take to the vet with me tomorrow morning, appointment is at 9:10am, which I think is the first of the day so shouldn't be waiting about hopefully! Just going to talk with the vet first about Cassies past to give her some history, get her to check her over to make sure there's nothing out of the ordinary and then I'll ask her for the tests and see what she says. I'll try her on the steroids if she offers that, I'm more hesitant with the antibiotics, as you say if she has fungal/mites then the symptoms could get worse on antibiotics, so I'll talk to her about that if it's what she recommends, but I'd rather wait for the test results before she tries antibiotics.

One question, which I'm not sure if you'll be able to help with. Regards the skin scrape. She itches her actual bum/privates, and her chin the most, so I'm guessing they can't scrape these areas, so does it matter where they take the scraping from? Also, if she's having a scrape, will they provide antibiotics to stop it getting infected afterwards anyway? I'm a little concerned if they'll manage to take a scrape with her being quite sensitive at the moment, I don't know how easy it will be, so not really looking forward to it lol

Hopefully the damacton will be here this week, I'm relying on it to help her stop itching so I'm really hoping that it will work.

Anyway, I best get some sleep, will let you know tomorrow how it goes.

Thanks again for your reply! x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Thanks SDH, that was an extremely helpful post. Although I did find the thyroid part a bit difficult to understand It seems quite complex so will give it another read tomorrow when I'm fully alert. I've written some notes to take to the vet with me tomorrow morning, appointment is at 9:10am, which I think is the first of the day so shouldn't be waiting about hopefully! Just going to talk with the vet first about Cassies past to give her some history, get her to check her over to make sure there's nothing out of the ordinary and then I'll ask her for the tests and see what she says. I'll try her on the steroids if she offers that, I'm more hesitant with the antibiotics, as you say if she has fungal/mites then the symptoms could get worse on antibiotics, so I'll talk to her about that if it's what she recommends, but I'd rather wait for the test results before she tries antibiotics.
> 
> One question, which I'm not sure if you'll be able to help with. Regards the skin scrape. She itches her actual bum/privates, and her chin the most, so I'm guessing they can't scrape these areas, so does it matter where they take the scraping from? Also, if she's having a scrape, will they provide antibiotics to stop it getting infected afterwards anyway? I'm a little concerned if they'll manage to take a scrape with her being quite sensitive at the moment, I don't know how easy it will be, so not really looking forward to it lol
> 
> ...


Antibiotics will be fine, they will/should work on any secondary bacterial infection she has from the scratching or any other bacterial infection thats primary.

Its the steroids that suppress the immune system, steroids should help if there is allergys present, but as they supress the immune system and demodex usually multiply if the immune systems supressed then that can make them worse.

Basically it goes like this.
Steroids are an anti inflamatory - should work on the allergies and reduce inflamation.

Antibiotics - should work on bacterial infection present, assuming they are broad spectrum/ ones for skin bacterial infections or the correct ones for the specific bacterial present.

Anti-fungals will work on fungal infections.

Advocate will work on fleas and flea allergy dermatitis or at least help, Demodectic mange mites, sarcoptic Mange mites, ear mites.

I believe they take skin scrapes from different areas, look under the microscope for mites (although not always conclusive as we discussed) and they send it alway to be cultured too to look for specific bacteria and fungal infections present. They would I think have to to a deep skin scrape so may even sedate or anaestetise her.

Might be worth asking them to check her anal glands and see if they need emptying, they bother a lot with their butts and do things like scooting if the anal glands are blocked and they can be irritating.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Forgot to add hope you get on Ok tomorrow Ive got vets too, Nanuqs got to go for her regular check up and thyroid blood test to check her levels and that her meds are the right dosage, so Ill catch up with you later tomorrow.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Last time I asked the vets if it could be demodetic mites they said they'd need to send a scraping off to a lab to be checked, so I don't even think they check under the microscope in house at my vets, whereas a lot of people on the forums have said they checked it there and then at their vets.

I really hope they don't have to anaesthetise her! She's 'usually' really good in the vets, and I'll be walking her there to tire her out a bit, it's a good 40min walk so she might be a bit more calm and not need a sedation by the time we get there. I'll just go with the flow, at least I know what to expect now.

Regards antibiotics I just dislike the thought of her being on them because when humans take them they're more susceptible to things like yeast infections due to it killing the probiotics/good bacteria as well as the bad bacteria. But sounds like steroids have a similar affect too regards dampening the immune system, so I can dislike them both now lol. If they put her on either, is it safe to give her probiotic yogurt at the same time or could that mess things up?

She had her anal glands checked a few weeks ago, think about 3 weeks, and they were pretty full, due to going back on kibble for a few weeks she probably needs them emptying again, thanks for reminding me! She never gets any of the usually scooting symptoms, just pays a lot of attention to licking her bum when they're full.

I'll try get some prices for allergy testing in case she needs more tests in the near future.



Sled dog hotel said:


> Forgot to add hope you get on Ok tomorrow Ive got vets too, Nanuqs got to go for her regular check up and thyroid blood test to check her levels and that her meds are the right dosage, so Ill catch up with you later tomorrow.


Thanks! Hope yours goes ok too, does nanuqs have hypothyroidism? (feel free to reply tomorrow! don't want to keep you up!)


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Last time I asked the vets if it could be demodetic mites they said they'd need to send a scraping off to a lab to be checked, so I don't even think they check under the microscope in house at my vets, whereas a lot of people on the forums have said they checked it there and then at their vets.
> 
> I really hope they don't have to anaesthetise her! She's 'usually' really good in the vets, and I'll be walking her there to tire her out a bit, it's a good 40min walk so she might be a bit more calm and not need a sedation by the time we get there. I'll just go with the flow, at least I know what to expect now.
> 
> ...


Nanuq was diagnosed with hypo-thyroid at 2 years old shes 3yrs 8mths now. She has the auto immune one where the body attacks its own thyroid that can be hereditary. Not only has she got it two of the brothers have it too and last I heard the 4th pup was being tested as well but dont know his results yet.

Just for good measure.
Daisy whos 14 1/2 has it too. She was diagnosed about a couple of years ago shes got the idiopathic one where it just goes on the blink.

Weird thing is that Nanuqs only sign really was seizures and knowing its in the breed and there is a link to seizures I requested they tested her and thats what it was, No seizures since for 18mths now.

The only sign Daisy showed was she wasnt moulting properly her coat got an odd colour and she had an op and the shaved areas didnt grow back, Had her tested she was hypo-thyroid.

My previous 2 huskies went hypothyroid idiopathic version (unknown cause) about 10/11 years old too.

And just to complete the set, I was diagnosed with it too last December!!:scared:


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Oh god, that's a lot of hypothyroid! Is it usually just something that happens, or can you somehow prevent it? Think I mentioned in another thread that my cat Sally who passed away 4 years ago (just before we got Cassie) had hypothyroidism, but it was diagnosed very late, she also had kidney disease and was very poorly so we had her pts as it was only fair to stop her suffering, afterall she was about 20 years old! It does seem like it's somewhat common, especially in your case! Once on medication does it stop it getting worse, or just help the symptoms?

Your dogs are lovely by the way, there's quite a few huskies in our local park, I always have to have two looks when walking past them, they're a really beautiful breed!

Just a note on shedding. Cassie doesn't have noticeable seasonal shedding like Rottweilers are supposed to. She just constantly sheds her fur. I'm having to constantly every day go around the floor with a dry mop to get it all up and there's tonnes of it! When we first got her, I'm pretty sure she didn't shed it as much, could this be a symptom of hypothyroid? Also since going back on chicken, even though it's only been about a week, her fur has gone great once again, it's no longer greasy, it's nice and clean, shiny and silky again!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Oh god, that's a lot of hypothyroid! Is it usually just something that happens, or can you somehow prevent it? Think I mentioned in another thread that my cat Sally who passed away 4 years ago (just before we got Cassie) had hypothyroidism, but it was diagnosed very late, she also had kidney disease and was very poorly so we had her pts as it was only fair to stop her suffering, afterall she was about 20 years old! It does seem like it's somewhat common, especially in your case! Once on medication does it stop it getting worse, or just help the symptoms?
> 
> Your dogs are lovely by the way, there's quite a few huskies in our local park, I always have to have two looks when walking past them, they're a really beautiful breed!
> 
> Just a note on shedding. Cassie doesn't have noticeable seasonal shedding like Rottweilers are supposed to. She just constantly sheds her fur. I'm having to constantly every day go around the floor with a dry mop to get it all up and there's tonnes of it! When we first got her, I'm pretty sure she didn't shed it as much, could this be a symptom of hypothyroid? Also since going back on chicken, even though it's only been about a week, her fur has gone great once again, it's no longer greasy, it's nice and clean, shiny and silky again!


No you cant prevent it, you can have parents tested before breeding to see if they have the auto immune one that can be hereditary. Its what they call an endocrine disorder or one of them. Once it goes on the blink and the thyroid glands knackered then thats it. Dogs are on pills for life Im on pills for life end of.
As the body cant make thyroid hormones itself you have to take synthetic thyroid hormone to replace it. Good news is the treatment is effective and the meds quite cheap, or in my case you are exempt from having to pay prescription charges once you have it. We all just have to have thyroid blood tests regularly to make sure the dose if right only difference is the dogs tests are more through the NHS ones for humans is crap in comparison. Once you have replacement and the dose is right then you return to normal.

Your cat probably went hyper thyroid for some odd reason cats get hyper thyroidism meaning they make too much thyroid hormone, dogs always seem to go hypo thyroid dont make enough, humans though can go either way hyper or hypo. I had a spate of being hyper thyroid 20 odd years ago and with medication to supress it for awhile it righted itself for years now Ive gone the other way.

Thyroid problems are pretty common now in people, dogs and cats.

Hair can certainly thin and shed with hypo thyroid, both in humans and animals.
On that score though touch wood mine was OK.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Just got back from vets. Not sure if it went well or not? I tried to ask her everything I needed to know but she seemed a bit pushy and in a rush. basically she said sounds like atopic dermatitis, and she's going in for tests tomorrow, for bacterial/fungal, sarcoptic and demodetic mites. And she advised to put her on stronghold for flea/mite treatment. She also said as a package they do allergy testing too, and in all it should be about £200. But if the allergy categories come back positive then they have more in depth allergy tests which could in total cost up to about £500 =S from that they can make up a bottle of vaccine for £150 that would last 10 months =/

I want the other tests, but not really sure if there's any point in the allergy ones =/ I didn't want to ask about the thyroid test as felt like I was asking too much as it was =[


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Just got back from vets. Not sure if it went well or not? I tried to ask her everything I needed to know but she seemed a bit pushy and in a rush. basically she said sounds like atopic dermatitis, and she's going in for tests tomorrow, for bacterial/fungal, sarcoptic and demodetic mites. And she advised to put her on stronghold for flea/mite treatment. She also said as a package they do allergy testing too, and in all it should be about £200. But if the allergy categories come back positive then they have more in depth allergy tests which could in total cost up to about £500 =S from that they can make up a bottle of vaccine for £150 that would last 10 months =/
> 
> I want the other tests, but not really sure if there's any point in the allergy ones =/ I didn't want to ask about the thyroid test as felt like I was asking too much as it was =[


We worked out that part of it if not all was possibly Atopy inhalant allergy and dermatitis anyway and that she seems to have a flea allergy too. Shes going to do a skin scrape then by the sounds of it for mites and bacterial and fungal infection which isnt a bad thing I suppose, unless she is going to do the sarcoptic blood test as well.

Just get the ones that you have already arranged first and take it from there if she has got sarcoptic mites or demodex then sarcoptic mites especially will be causing the itching and scratching and driving her mental making her more open to bacterial and fungal infections from the trauma to the skin.

Not sure why she has reccomended Stronghold over Advocate as when I checked yesterday Advocate kills or so the manufacturers say fleas on contact rather then wait for them to bite and seeing as the flea allergies are usually a response to the flea saliva (not sure if stronghold works the same) Advocate with the house sorted as well should take care of the fleas.

Advocate also does both ear mites, demodex and sarcoptic as well. so with the right dosage should/would take care of that too. I checked yesterday and stronghold appears to only do sarcoptic not demodex or ear mites.
I take it she hasnt given you the stronghold yet anyway seeing as how shes doing the test, its a bit pointless putting it on before the test. If the tests do show up demodex and sarcoptic and ear mites then advocate would be better anyway I would have thought.

Just rang my lab for you to see about their allergy testing packages. if you remember you have to ring to check on what ones they do. They dont do the allergy testing from there, the sister company does it, But he did say they do various allergy testing packages and they also do the antidotes to the various ones too once found. Which is what she is talking about with the vaccine they make up. They introduce small amounts of the allergen at regular intervals in the hope of gradually de sentitising the body to the allergen. Could be where she will send off the allergy tests and get the antidote from anyway.

You will have to hold off trying the dermacton then until the tests are done tomorrow as well?

Maybe get the tests done tomorrow and see what that comes up with. Then take if from there, trying the dermacton and a supplement like the Efavet as that is used to help dermatitis and skin allergies, that you can buy at vet pharmacies too instead of getting it from the vet so likely a lot cheaper.

Nans OK thanks too, took her blood and thats going off to the Lab and shes passed her physical check up with flying colours.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

When she mentioned stronghold and talked about sarcoptic mites and fleas I asked if it killed demodex too, she said it doesn't but advocate does, according to her she doesn't think advocates very affective against demodex, she also said 'skin specialists think the same too', but not sure if that was Just a way to add weight to her opinion? She also said she can tell just by looking at her that she doesn't have demodex (hmm..) I said a previous vet said she might due to the hair loss around her eyes (which she noticed as soon as she saw Cassie), then she said it'll be tested for anyway to make sure.

regards the sarcoptic blood test, she said to me if I treat her for sarcoptic mites with the spot ons regardless of tests, then its not crucial to check for the mites as they'll soon be dead anyway, but the allergy package tests for them in skin scrapes anyway... So I just left it at that. I really didn't want to push her anymore as thought she might start being a but abrupt with me, though that might just be my interpriation of her. She was quite nice, just not really welcoming of lots of questions, although she did answer them all. Every single vet ive seen has been like that, I think I just get bad luck with them.

Thanks for contacting the lab about the tests. I'll try get more info tomorrow about them, I guess it could help if they did food tests and it came back saying she was strongly allergic to chicken then i wouldn't feed it her. But from what i remember she said "they first test for categories, like pollens, trees, etc and if the category comes back positive then they will do more tests in that category to find out which pollens, grasses, trees she's alergic to." which is of no use to me because im not going to be able to afford a monthly vet visit for the rest of her life to have an allergy vaccine! Let alone I've been reading the vaccines aren't really as good as they sound.

Glad your vet visit went well, where do you live? I could do with changing to your vets lol

Update:
Oh and no she hasn't been prescribed any spot on yet. I would have personally gone for advocate just because what it says on the label but she thinks stronghold is best... Just worried that she might have mites and it'll go untreated =[ are they like scabies, do they not show up in scrapes much?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> When she mentioned stronghold and talked about sarcoptic mites and fleas I asked if it killed demodex too, she said it doesn't but advocate does, according to her she doesn't think advocates very affective against demodex, she also said 'skin specialists think the same too', but not sure if that was Just a way to add weight to her opinion? She also said she can tell just by looking at her that she doesn't have demodex (hmm..) I said a previous vet said she might due to the hair loss around her eyes (which she noticed as soon as she saw Cassie), then she said it'll be tested for anyway to make sure.
> 
> regards the sarcoptic blood test, she said to me if I treat her for sarcoptic mites with the spot ons regardless of tests, then its not crucial to check for the mites as they'll soon be dead anyway, but the allergy package tests for them in skin scrapes anyway... So I just left it at that. I really didn't want to push her anymore as thought she might start being a but abrupt with me, though that might just be my interpriation of her. She was quite nice, just not really welcoming of lots of questions, although she did answer them all. Every single vet ive seen has been like that, I think I just get bad luck with them.
> 
> ...


Some vets dont like clients who ask too many questions I have got past caring tbh and continue to be a pain in the rear and its paid off many a time I might add.

I have used Aludex wash for sarcoptic as I said and that does demodex too and that was successful pre spot on and that was treating a Samoyed too with tons of fur and undercoat so harder to get them soaked in it then a short coated dog.
Aludex is still sold but when I used it you didnt have much choice no spot ons in those days.

Ive used stonghold too for sarcoptic although it doesnt do demodex and that too I must admit was very effective and did the job. One point that she did make and is true of course is that the advocate data is from the manufacturer regards usefullness and effectiveness and they are not exactly going to say our product is rubbish and there are better on the market are they, so its true as they say the proof of the pudding is in the eating so to speak.

Sarcoptic though from all the data can get missed in a skin scrape it has been known in fact my vet always goes by symptoms and treats, although hopefully you may be lucky and they will show.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Well its exactly what confuses me when I come to choose a product, you can go off what the manufacturer says but they're only going to make their product sound amazing so you buy it, who knows if they work? Well vets should have a pretty good idea, but even they can be sponsored by companies so they could be giving biasd information too.. Sigh lol

She had a poster on the wall for comfortis tablets, she said it kills fleas within 2 hours and would be ideal for her, and they could be used with safeguard to treat sarcoptics too. So maybe that's why she wasn't too bothered about safeguard not killing fleas on contact like advocate does? do you think it would be wise opting for comfortis and safeguard combo, and if demodex shows up in scrapes then to sort that when the time comes? Or should I push for advocate still?

My last question in the last post on whether the mites shown up under microscope was tailored towards demodetic mites not scabies, from what you've already told me I know scabies don't show up that often (unfortunately). But not sure how often demodex shows up? Are they close to 100% likely to show in a scrape or 20% just like scabies?

Another thing I just remembered, I asked if shed need a test for bacterial/fungal infection, and she replied with "there's no tests as such, but the bloods will be tested for malassezia (cant spell, anyway, yeast) and skin scraped and hair plucked too for infection" but surely a blood test and a scrape is classed as a test for bacteria/fungal, so why say there's no test? Lol

I didn't really have to mention anything as she said it all without me stating much at first, so at least were all on the same track. Just she never mentioned demodex until I did.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Well its exactly what confuses me when I come to choose a product, you can go off what the manufacturer says but they're only going to make their product sound amazing so you buy it, who knows if they work? Well vets should have a pretty good idea, but even they can be sponsored by companies so they could be giving biasd information too.. Sigh lol
> 
> She had a poster on the wall for comfortis tablets, she said it kills fleas within 2 hours and would be ideal for her, and they could be used with safeguard to treat sarcoptics too. So maybe that's why she wasn't too bothered about safeguard not killing fleas on contact like advocate does? do you think it would be wise opting for comfortis and safeguard combo, and if demodex shows up in scrapes then to sort that when the time comes? Or should I push for advocate still?
> 
> ...


Need to do some checking whats in Comfortis oral tablets. I was researching another one the other day and if its got the same active ingrediant in it then
side effects were a bit worrying. Ill check that and if its the same link you to the FDA suff I found the other day.

Demodex Im pretty sure you have a better chance, as demodex live in the hair follicles where as sarcoptic burrow into the skin and thats were they lay their eggs so, if you dont do a deep enough skin scraping then probably you have little chance still with the sarcoptic.

As regards no tests for bacterial and fungal infection, and to make sure I wasnt going barmy and had give you duff info, as far as Ive always known you can do cultures of samples from the animal to check for specific bacteria and fungal infections although some types not all as I mentioned before fungal infection wise will glow under a woods lamp that takes a few seconds in the surgery if they have a woods lamp.
Anyway Ive checked and this is what Ive found bacterial and fungal cultures are mentioned further down.
Animal Dermatology and Allergy Specialists


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just checked on Comfortis, its got something called Spinosad in it which isnt the same as the oral flea tablets I was checking the other day, However

Q: My dog has allergies. Can he still take Comfortis?

Comfortis contains beef flavoring made from a pork-based protein. If your dog has an allergy to pork, another alternative for flea treatment and prevention might need to be considered. Please discuss these options with your pet's veterinarian.

Q: What side effects might occur with Comfortis?

As with any medication, sometimes side effects can occur. In some cases, dogs vomited after receiving Comfortis. During field studies, no severe or prolonged vomiting occurred.

Additional adverse reactions observed in the clinical studies were itching, decreased activity, diarrhea, inflammation of the skin, redness of the skin, decreased appetite and redness of the ear. All reactions were regarded as mild.
Comfortis® (spinosad) for Dogs - Frequently-Asked Questions - Comfortis.com

Much more info on here Comfortis for dogs is further down
https://www.elancocentral.com/comfortis-product-label.pdf

Safeguard as far as I can see is a wormer?


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

I think the 'no tests for bacterial/fungal infections as such..." might have been a mistake on her behalf, as she followed it up to say they would test for yeast and bacteria using blood samples and skin scrapings... Unless she meant there isn't a test to cover ALL bacteria/fungal, taking my question too literally. Who knows?

Regards comfortis, im not really bothered about it if stronghold will sort the fleas out. To be honest I think they might have gone because I haven't seen any flea bites on her and not came across a flea since 1-2 weeks ago, so flea treatment might not be that problematic at the mo. One thing she did say, in dogs with atopic dermatitis, keep them up to date with flea/worning treatment because if they get them they will itch like crazy. Now she hasn't had worming treatment for a few months now. Everytime she's tried worming pills she gets really ill for days, goes off her food and she vomits quite a lot so its something im really hesitant on doing =/ im not really sure what I should do about it!

I cant go to the website in your previous post about animal dermatology as im currently using the internet on my phone and for some reason the websites not displaying properly so ill check it on pc when I get home tonight x


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sorry I meant stronghold not safeguard... There's just too many of them! Getting confused lol


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Sorry I meant stronghold not safeguard... There's just too many of them! Getting confused lol


Strong Hold I can vouch for although it doesnt do domodex I have used it on sarcoptic mites.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Strong Hold I can vouch for although it doesnt do domodex I have used it on sarcoptic mites.


Well, I'll try her on just stronghold then as the vet advised (at least it will make her happy lol), I'll try get some tomorrow, and if the scrapes come back positive for demodex I'll use something separate for it.










She doesn't look too happy with her new collar, although it is a lot smaller than her last one so she should be a bit more comfortable lying down with it, and she hopefully won't knock my kneecaps out as often as she used to!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Well, I'll try her on just stronghold then as the vet advised (at least it will make her happy lol), I'll try get some tomorrow, and if the scrapes come back positive for demodex I'll use something separate for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If they come back with demodex or demodex and sarcoptic as well then she may well give you something else anyway seeing as how stronghold doesnt do demodex.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

I had a sleep earlier and woke up pretty upset about what happened at the vets this morning, I guess I've been in an odd state due to the lack of sleep I had last night and made decisions which I wasn't ready for. I've been talking to my mum for the past hour and she thinks it would be a good idea to try and get another appointment tomorrow with my old vet (at the same surgery) as he seems a bit more approachable than the woman I saw today. I have lots of questions regards the allergy testing and I just don't feel I'm ready to make the decision on it without getting some answers, and I don't feel like I can ask the vet who I saw today any questions tomorrow due to the way she was shrugging me off this morning, she rushed me into making decisions with her black or white choice. So I'm going to ring up in the morning and cancel my appointment with her and try and get in to see my old vet to ask him the questions.

Basically, I'm not going to be able to afford £150 every 10month, along with £20 vet fees monthly to have a vaccine injection if it's not going to be 100% effective, so what is the point in finding out if she is allergic to elm tree pollen? It would however be beneficial to find out if she was allergic to say chicken, as I can then avoid feeding her it. I want the tests which we have talked about, bacterial/fungal infection, demodetic/sarcoptic mites, to rule them out. Once the test results come back, if they are negative, then I can treat it as allergies (which it probably is anyway) and I can try with the shampoos and supplements first to see if they help, if that doesn't work then I have no option but to go for the allergy testing. But right now, I don't think the allergy testing would be beneficial- not just because of costs, but because I think I can try other things out before hand.

The way the vet was talking today, It came accross like I have to have the mite/infection test with the allergy test all in one go at the same time (she called it a package *rolls eyes*), or she said I could just do shampoo treatment with no tests. And that's not what I want, I want mite/infection and my own supplement/shampoo with allergy testing at a later date, so I'll see my old vet and talk to him about it.

Does that seem reasonable? She shouldn't have made me feel so insignificant, she had a nurse with her and it was as though she was showing off in front of her.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Im sorry I cannot be of more help
But I do think you are justified in feeling the way you do about her treatment of you
Make the appointment with the other vet, and if you have to keep going until you find one your are comfortable with and can answer your questions and do the tests you want.


Wishing you the very best


Vicki


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> Im sorry I cannot be of more help
> But I do think you are justified in feeling the way you do about her treatment of you
> Make the appointment with the other vet, and if you have to keep going until you find one your are comfortable with and can answer your questions and do the tests you want.
> 
> ...


Thanks Vicki,

I sometimes can't tell whether things are justified or not, as the vet I saw today made me feel like she is 100% correct and I shouldn't be questioning her or even asking advice, so I even doubt myself then and feel like I shouldn't be asking questions, when deep down I know that's bullsh*t, I deserve to know these things afterall I am paying their wages! I'm a little worried too, that the vets will talk to each other, and todays vet will talk to my old vet and they'll wonder why I changed my appointment to see my old vet instead... but I guess, I don't really care, I just want Cass better.

I don't find it that much easier talking to my old vet really, but in the past I've felt like I can ask him questions and he doesn't mind, whereas today, she was easy to talk to but as soon as you ask a question she'll become defensive and pull faces.

I feel a bit lost to be honest, I know what I want but I'm finding it difficult in getting it!

*Sigh* will keep trying...


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

If your not happy then see your other vet first you need to be clear in your own mind. Like you say if its food allergys and you find them out then you can at least exclude them from the diet. if its pollen and grasses and molds can you really avoid them anyway? which either means trying the desensitising vaccine which may not even work of treating/dealing with the treatment.

Obviously you need to know if there is mites present especially the sarcoptic as if she has got those shes going to itch like hell and get worse anyway, whatever else she has mange alone will drive you and her demented. same with a bacterial or fungal infection if thats present, and doest get cleared thats still going to be there and cause problems regardless. If you had antibiotics and fungal washes and cleared that up, if sarcoptics there shes just going to itch and scratch and cause bacterial and possibly fungal infections again. Even that link agreed that should be ruled out.

Really in theory you could just do away with the tests, when mine had sarcoptic mites the vet didnt even bother he was convinced on the symptoms and gave treatment.

Really you could go straight into treatment even and see if it makes a difference to be honest.

Say Advocate, which will do her flea allergy together with ensuring the house is treated if need be, Advocate also does sarcoptic demodex and ear mites. It even does worms and lungworm as well come to that. Ear mites and sarcoptic they say a single dose, demodex 2 to 4 doses. So as far as parasites go that should deal with the lot in one fail swoop, especially if you do 2/3 months running
but ask your usual vet what he thinks.

As I said I know stronghold does sarcoptic, fleas and earmite too I think but doesnt do demodex. But ask his opinion on the two.

Cassies likely to have bacteria infection because of the scratching and itching so you could ask him about a course of antibiotics as well for that.

If she is itching too because of allergys you could even try a course of steroids come to that if there is itching because of allergy that should stop that or at least lessen it so theres you answer there.

Thats of course if you can use them all together. There is the aludex baths too
that does demodex and sarcoptic.

Have a chat with him and see what he thinks tomorrow. I know a course of steroids wont tell you what she is allergic too, but if they stop any itching coming from allergys then at least you know shes got allergys of some sort and it will be worth going on to do the testing to find out what too at least.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks sdh, will reply properly to your post tomorrow as I am so drained today, will be getting an 'early' night. Just to mention before I go though. I did ask the vet today one thing today, and that was after she mentioned steroids. I asked, if she had steroids for about a week and her itching cleared up, would that prove that she had allergies? And she replied with, "no, as steroids would stop all itching, regardless of what caused it, mites, infection, or allergies", not sure how true that is?

I'll talk with my old vet tomorrow and see if I can skip testing and go to treatment instead, but I don't mind mite/infection testing, just don't want allergy testing right now.

Will let you know again tomorrow how it goes, I won't get my hopes up though lol x


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Thanks sdh, will reply properly to your post tomorrow as I am so drained today, will be getting an 'early' night. Just to mention before I go though. I did ask Lynn one thing today, and that was after she mentioned steroids. I asked, if she had steroids for about a week and her itching cleared up, would that prove that she had allergies? And she replied with, "no, as steroids would stop all itching, regardless of what caused it, mites, infection, or allergies", not sure how true that is?
> 
> I'll talk with Alec tomorrow and see if I can skip testing and go to treatment instead, but I don't mind mite/infection testing, just don't want allergy testing right now.
> 
> Will let you know again tomorrow how it goes, I won't get my hopes up though lol x


Well steroids didnt stop Basils itching the dog that suffered with sarcoptic from 8 weeks old to 11 months that 4/5 vets missed even with a skin scrape. If I remember rightly a course of antibiotics helped a bit for a wekk or two at one point because they probably helped with any bacterial infection from the scratching but even that came back once off them. Thats how I sussed it was proberly sarcoptic mange in the first place for the member as usually if its just allergys it will at least help usually if it doesnt stop it completely. If I remember as I say rightly it did nothing at all.

I do know how you feel different situation but when Kobi kept going lame and xrays 2 scans and the camera in his shoulder didnt find out what was wrong.
Only rest seemed to help even anti inflammatories didnt fasten things up or seem to make a difference. I was nearly going demented he would be Ok then it would happen again rest up Ok again. then limping again. In the end I bought a £9.00 odd pack of mobile bones been on it a few months now and dont want to tempt fate but right as reign so far, as opposed to about 5K of orthopaedic specialists and tests


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just thought you have the dermacton still, thats saved a few owners on here from going demented with itchy dogs in the past so who knows hopefully you will be lucky with that. Its natural too no side effects either, thats another thing I like about the Mobile bones.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Another thought the makers of mobile bones make this too Bionic biotic supplement and one of the uses is for skin problems with itching and redness

Probiotic for Dogs | Bionic Biotic | Dog Health Supplement | Pooch and Mutt


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Just a little update of how things went yesterday seeing my old vet.

They booked us in for a longer consultation, as I told the receptionist that on wednesday we came away feeling like we didn't have enough info to make a decision, and that some of our questions went unanswered , which they were fine about. Got an appointment yesterday to see my old vet, and he gave her a good look over, asked loads of questions, about dates, symptoms etc. and we told him that at the moment we don't think allergy testing would be beneficial, but we still wanted the other tests, sarcoptic/demodetic/fungal/bacterial skin scrapes, which he said was perfectly fine and sensible. I asked if she would be treated for the sarcoptese if the tests came back negative due to them not always showing up in the scrapes and he agreed with me (unlike yesterdays vet) he said that we'd cover that when the tests come back and to play things by ear at the moment, one step at a time, but he doesn't think it's sarcoptic due to noone else having any symptoms of it especially if she had it for 4 years, but he definately didn't rule it out. He said demodex would be more likely (despite the first vet saying she deffinately didnt have demodex just by looking at her). Although, he still thinks it's allergies due to her symptoms and history, but he just wants to rule out the other things first. He also said it's likely to be a mix of things, including attention seeking/habbit as well as atopic dermatitis. (also mentioned couple of other things but can't quite remember). But he said the itching has probably came on bad due to the flea infestation which he said it looks like we have under control now, so her itching might subside within a few weeks. So overall he agrees with what we've covered.

He mentioned skin biopsies, where they can check for lots of other things and cancers as some other things can cause similar symptoms, so I'll ask a bit more into that next visit, including asking about the thyroid stuff. He was really open to questions and actually welcomed them, and he's really straight forward, there's no mysticism involved with his answers and he doesn't come accross like he knows better than everyone else, so it was such a pleasant visit to the vets for once! He is the practice owner, and he's been there for more than 30 years so maybe I should have just gone to him in the first place!

He made an appointment for the skin scrapes on 12th September, as she had a bath 5 days ago so he wants her skin to go back to normal before taking any scrapes so that any fungal/bacteria can grow back. Also gave her piriton, which we have tried in the past but never in a high dose, he said it might help the symptoms out a bit, he recommended 6 tablets a day (3, twice daily) so hopefully it might give her a bit of relief for the short term. Also checked her lump on her hand and said it was just a wart and nothing to worry about.

So overall, came away a lot happier than Wednesday, might not be having blood test for sarcoptic mites but I'll get her treated for them anyway as I'm sure he'll be fine prescribing advocate or the other one.

Think my favourite thing was how straight forward and his lack of faffing about was, didn't push any opinions on me either. We were in for 50 minutes in total, which made a nice difference from 15-20min on Wednesday!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Sounds like you have hit lucky not only a vet who obviously knows his stuff, but one who is willing to listen to what you have to say and not dismiss you, and is quite happy to discuss your ideas and options, instead of treating you like a numpty who knows nothing. Great stuff sounds like you are getting somwhere at last. Makes sense too that as you bathed her in Hibscrub which I believe deals with bacterial and fungal you should wait for awhile before the cultures to look for them incase they have decreased any infection present and throws the results off so you could miss something:thumbup:


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Sounds like you have hit lucky not only a vet who obviously knows his stuff, but one who is willing to listen to what you have to say and not dismiss you, and is quite happy to discuss your ideas and options, instead of treating you like a numpty who knows nothing. Great stuff sounds like you are getting somwhere at last. Makes sense too that as you bathed her in Hibscrub which I believe deals with bacterial and fungal you should wait for awhile before the cultures to look for them incase they have decreased any infection present and throws the results off so you could miss something:thumbup:


He really does seem to know his stuff, the vet on Wednesday knew that she had a hibiscrub bath in the past week, yet she still insisted on tests the following day, I didn't even think about it to be honest, so my old vet is definitely on the ball! I just feel gutted that I can't try the dermacton out for a few weeks 

He's the vet who did surgery and helped out when she had an accident in the park and cut her leg really badly on a glass bottle, and her leg is great now she recovered quite well, so I was quite silly in actually trying a different vet out. Maybe I had a blonde moment lol. He loves cassie as well and always remembers her, so bonuses all round!

Just a quick thing, you might know best, I haven't googled yet so will get to it in a mo, but cassie needs to take these piriton with something, I'm trying to stay away from dairy etc she'd usually have tablets in cream cheese or something similar. Do you know if they're ok to have tomatoes? It's the only thing in the fridge that I can find that she'll eat without spitting out, and I can press the pills into them quite easily lol

I'll keep you updated how things go, she's not at the vets for a couple of weeks now so will try not to pester you too much, I bet I've started getting on your nerves lol


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

ryanr said:


> He really does seem to know his stuff, the vet on Wednesday knew that she had a hibiscrub bath in the past week, yet she still insisted on tests the following day, I didn't even think about it to be honest, so my old vet is definitely on the ball! I just feel gutted that I can't try the dermacton out for a few weeks
> 
> He's the vet who did surgery and helped out when she had an accident in the park and cut her leg really badly on a glass bottle, and her leg is great now she recovered quite well, so I was quite silly in actually trying a different vet out. Maybe I had a blonde moment lol. He loves cassie as well and always remembers her, so bonuses all round!
> 
> ...


Dogs are fine to eat tomatoes. My two love them as well.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> He really does seem to know his stuff, the vet on Wednesday knew that she had a hibiscrub bath in the past week, yet she still insisted on tests the following day, I didn't even think about it to be honest, so my old vet is definitely on the ball! I just feel gutted that I can't try the dermacton out for a few weeks
> 
> He's the vet who did surgery and helped out when she had an accident in the park and cut her leg really badly on a glass bottle, and her leg is great now she recovered quite well, so I was quite silly in actually trying a different vet out. Maybe I had a blonde moment lol. He loves cassie as well and always remembers her, so bonuses all round!
> 
> ...


Not getting on my nerves at all actually Pester away as much as you like, I know what its like to have a dog with health problems and not know where to start and be constantly worried and fraustrated by the whole thing, so doesnt bother me at all. Also gives me something to do with my brain so it 
doesnt vegetate

Had a feeling about tomatoes but wasnt sure

Tomatoes (plant and fruit) contain tomatine, an alkaloid related to solanine. As the fruit ripens, the tomatine is metabolized. Therefore, ripe tomatoes are less likely to be problematic for animals. Clinical signs of poisoning include lethargy, drooling, difficulty breathing, colic, vomiting, diarrhea or constipation, widely-dilated pupils, paralysis, cardiac effects, central nervous system signs (e.g., ataxia, muscle weakness, tremors, seizures), resulting from cholinesterase inhibition, coma and death. (This information comes from veterinarians, and the ASPCA Animal Poison Control Center.) (All parts of the plant except the tomato itself are poisonous to humans, although some people are sensitive to the ripe fruit also.) 
Tomatoes also contain atropine, which can cause dilated pupils, tremors, and heart arrhythmias. The highest concentration of atropine is found in the leaves and stems of tomato plants, with less in unripe (green) tomatoes, and even less in ripe (red) tomatoes.
DOG TRICKS, TIPS AND INSIGHTS, Foods that are Harmful or Fatal to Dogs.

Ive found the best way to give tablets is liver pate, the smell hides any smell of the meds, you can mold it around the pill and most dogs cant get enough of it thats what I use.

if she has got to have it with food (cant remember how many times a day you said?) you could always also break her meals up into smaller ones so she has the same amount per day in totaly but just more meals then usual.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Just double checked this seems to confirm its the plant leaves flowers and green ones that are the real problem, small amounts of really ripe ones are OK

Barely. Most dogs dont ingest enough tomato plants to cause a problem. Tomato plants are in the Nightshade family and contain tomatine. Tomatine is found in concentrations of up to 5% in the leafy greens, the fruit blossoms, and in small green tomatoes; this concentration rapidly decreases as the tomato ripens. When stems, vines and green fruit are ingested, clinical signs can include gastrointestinal irritation, ataxia, and weakness. Treatment is purely supportive with an overall good prognosis

Can Dogs Eat Tomatoes - Are Tomatoes Bad for Dogs?


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Oh bloody hell you just can't win can you lol 

I've only been giving her the salad tomatoes (small ones), and I never eat a full tub of them so I usually have some over-ripened soft skin squidgy ones at the back of the fridge somewhere, do you think it would be ok giving her just half? ie. one full one each day? I want to stay away from other meats at the moment so not too keen on using the liver patte just right now. She's currently having 2 chicken leg quarters each day so I can't really add it to her food, unless i stuff in under the skin but she's so picky and she'll probably spit them out, whereas a tomato she'll just swallow it down lol

I could try pineapple as I know it's supposed to stop them eating their own poo, but I don't always have it in, wheras tomatoes I do. Tried it in carrot but she spits carrot out and eats it up again about ten times, so that's not ideal either. Just want to try to stick with stuff that she wouldn't have the chance of being allergic to!

She doesn't have to have it with food, but just find it a lot easier to give it with food, as they don't taste too good and she spits them out lol


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Oh bloody hell you just can't win can you lol
> 
> I've only been giving her the salad tomatoes (small ones), and I never eat a full tub of them so I usually have some over-ripened soft skin squidgy ones at the back of the fridge somewhere, do you think it would be ok giving her just half? ie. one full one each day? I want to stay away from other meats at the moment so not too keen on using the liver patte just right now. She's currently having 2 chicken leg quarters each day so I can't really add it to her food, unless i stuff in under the skin but she's so picky and she'll probably spit them out, whereas a tomato she'll just swallow it down lol
> 
> ...


Looks like the other site I checked see above in case you missed it really ripe one in small amounts shouldnt be a problem. If must have been the problems with the plants themselves that I was thinking about.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Jugsmalone said:


> Dogs are fine to eat tomatoes. My two love them as well.


She'd eat a field of tomatoes if she got the chance to! It's funny watching her eat stuff like that as you never know if she'll spit it out or not, when I've dropped some lettuce or spinach on the floor she'll run up to it with loads of excitement and lick it up, then spit it out in disgust lol


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Looks like the other site I checked see above in case you missed it really ripe one in small amounts shouldnt be a problem. If must have been the problems with the plants themselves that I was thinking about.


Oki doke, I used to grow tomatoes and knew about the greens, stems etc being poisonous just didn't know if the fruit was to the dog. I'll give it a chance then, if I notice anything funny I'll find something else to give her. :thumbup:

Think I might make a thread on piriton, the vet charged £8 for 200 tabs, which will last 33 days... but I've come accross boxes of 500 for £10 online, everywhere seems to be out of stock with them though, surely someone on the forum will know where stock the boxes of 500. I have a feeling that they've been discontinued though


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Oki doke, I used to grow tomatoes and knew about the greens, stems etc being poisonous just didn't know if the fruit was to the dog. I'll give it a chance then, if I notice anything funny I'll find something else to give her. :thumbup:
> 
> Think I might make a thread on piriton, the vet charged £8 for 200 tabs, which will last 33 days... but I've come accross boxes of 500 for £10 online, everywhere seems to be out of stock with them though, surely someone on the forum will know where stock the boxes of 500. I have a feeling that they've been discontinued though


Tis the allergy season humans and dogs, probably why there is a run on them I would have thought.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Never thought of that! I heard horses have them a lot, and they're more likely to buy in bulk too due to the amount they need. Anyhoo, I can cope fine on £8 for 200 at the moment, it sure beats £5 for 60 at the chemist anyway! And I'm not even sure they work for her yet so I'll give them a trial before bulk buying.


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## tasha30 (Aug 13, 2012)

ryanr said:


> Never thought of that! I heard horses have them a lot, and they're more likely to buy in bulk too due to the amount they need. Anyhoo, I can cope fine on £8 for 200 at the moment, it sure beats £5 for 60 at the chemist anyway! And I'm not even sure they work for her yet so I'll give them a trial before bulk buying.


£8 for 200 thats good on its own, i was charged £5 for 14


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

tasha30 said:


> £8 for 200 thats good on its own, i was charged £5 for 14


£5 for 14?! Jesus, even boots is cheaper than that! I was expecting it to cost a lot more and thought it was a good price until I came a cross the £10 for 500 online, especially as pharmacys charge so much for it! It seems as though its a completely different product despite it being the same. I mean, 30 pack for £3 most places, verses 500 pack for £10. Doesn't make sense! I'll keep my eyes peeled but im getting a feeling even vets might order them at that price hence why they might all be out of stock.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

No improvement what so ever on piriton, she's been having 6 a day for the past 2 weeks and her itching and biting is still as bad if not worse. She's at vets on wednesday for the scrapes and I'm calling tonight to see about food allergy tests.

As mentioned in previous posts, I still want her to have her thyroid checked, but reading into it it seems like my vets probably won't offer a 6 panel test. Been looking into hemopet, but I have no idea how to go about it. They have a "Thyroid Profile 5 (T4, free T4, T3, free T3, TgAA)" which I'm guessing is the correct one for $80. But I don't have a clue how to approach my vet about it. And even then how to send it off or pay for it as I've never done stuff like that before. I have read the international orders link on hemopet's website but still don't really understand it


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

There are a few labs that do the full profile in this country so it doesnt have to go off to the states. Sme vets do a T4 in the surgery but you can ask him to send off the full profile to one of the labs in the UK. Mine dont go off to the states.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> There are a few labs that do the full profile in this country so it doesnt have to go off to the states. Sme vets do a T4 in the surgery but you can ask him to send off the full profile to one of the labs in the UK. Mine dont go off to the states.


Righto, shall ask him about it then and I'll read through your past posts as I remember you mentioned one lab who does the tests so if he says they don't do it I'll mention the lab. I'm going to keep her on chicken for a further 3 weeks, then she'll have been on it for about 6 weeks in total, and if her condition doesn't get better I'll try her on Orijen 6 fish, as I have a really bad (but no proof) feeling that the chicken could be contributing to her problems. I'd like to take her off it now but If I keep swapping her food about too soon then it'll just confuse things even more.

Another thing I've noticed is she's been eating grass and plants in the garden, which my vet once told me it's due to them being hungry or trying to make themselves sick. I upped her food to include another chicken drumstick, on top of her normal 2 leg quarters but she hasn't stopped eating the grass/plants so I don't know why she's trying to make herself sick?

She's really, really bad at the moment and she looks so depressed, it's been nearly 2 months that she's had her collar on none-stop day/night other than her walks, it's getting me down seeing her like it


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Righto, shall ask him about it then and I'll read through your past posts as I remember you mentioned one lab who does the tests so if he says they don't do it I'll mention the lab. I'm going to keep her on chicken for a further 3 weeks, then she'll have been on it for about 6 weeks in total, and if her condition doesn't get better I'll try her on Orijen 6 fish, as I have a really bad (but no proof) feeling that the chicken could be contributing to her problems. I'd like to take her off it now but If I keep swapping her food about too soon then it'll just confuse things even more.
> 
> Another thing I've noticed is she's been eating grass and plants in the garden, which my vet once told me it's due to them being hungry or trying to make themselves sick. I upped her food to include another chicken drumstick, on top of her normal 2 leg quarters but she hasn't stopped eating the grass/plants so I don't know why she's trying to make herself sick?
> 
> She's really, really bad at the moment and she looks so depressed, it's been nearly 2 months that she's had her collar on none-stop day/night other than her walks, it's getting me down seeing her like it


Is she just bringing up bile or froth when shes sick along with the grass and is it often in the morning. All dogs seem to do it occcasionally usually when their tums are out of sorts, and now and again isnt unusual. You tend to see it more often especially in larger breeds, when they have gone a long while between meals. So from the evening meal until morning. Usually a bit of late supper solves the problem especially if its in the morning they do it worse.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

It's always just bile, I've been spreading her meals out, chicken drumstick in morning about 7-8am, chicken quarter at 1pm, chicken quarter at 6-7pm. Her food works out at about 750g per day just over 2% of her bodyweight. She only used to have 350g of orijen and never shown any signs of hunger, and when we did the first run of RAW 2 months ago she had 600g per day for 3 weeks and again never shown signs of hunger, so I don't know why she's hungry on 750g per day 

A problem that concerns me is when doing a bit of gardening over the weekend she started eating the honeysuckle, and I also noticed that the peonies have been chewed on too, I've never seen her doing it with the peonies but I can tell it's her. Looking online both peonies and honeysuckle are poisonous to dogs, we also have ivy, and a wall full of clematis but these don't seem to have been eaten. So I decided to cut down the honeysuckle, but not too sure what to do with the peonies as they're pretty big so I'll just keep a close eye on her when she's in the garden. 
A symptoms of ingesting peonies is depression, she definitely is depressed, but I put that down to her itches and cone/collar. Other than that she hasn't shown any other stomach upset other than the bile which I just presume is why she's eating the plants in the first place. She eats the grass every single day, and brings up bile maybe once or twice a week.

I've been talking to all of the dog walkers in the park who she's friends with, and about 7 of them have itchy dogs! they're all on either atopica, antibiotics or steroids. One of the dog owners won't go in the park any more because their dog is allergic to something in it :scared: I know for certain there are fox dens in there, and cassie's been in one before now because I've had to drag her out of it, so maybe they've all got sarcoptic mites! or just some kind of plant that they're allergic to. Or could just be a coincidence! I'm going to trial walking her along main roads for a couple of weeks and see if it changes anything, though she'll miss playing with her friends then


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Lots a lot of dogs to all be itchy at once and all go to the same place. Sarcoptic mange is contagious, foxes are a prime culprit for infection and if all these dogs play together a lot and have close contact, then also they would then be candidates to give it to each other, fungal infection like ringworm also is easily transferred from dog to dog as well.

Does seem odd that there is 7 dogs all itching and scratching, there are pollens grasses and even mold spores especially at certain times of year that can cause, allergies granted but surely a high percentage of the dogs are all not going to develope an allergy? You would need to be pretty unlucky. Unless there is something that really is an irritant at the park.

Just remembered this actually was watching it quite a few weeks ago
BBC News - Fight to halt toxic caterpillars


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> It's always just bile, I've been spreading her meals out, chicken drumstick in morning about 7-8am, chicken quarter at 1pm, chicken quarter at 6-7pm. Her food works out at about 750g per day just over 2% of her bodyweight. She only used to have 350g of orijen and never shown any signs of hunger, and when we did the first run of RAW 2 months ago she had 600g per day for 3 weeks and again never shown signs of hunger, so I don't know why she's hungry on 750g per day
> 
> A problem that concerns me is when doing a bit of gardening over the weekend she started eating the honeysuckle, and I also noticed that the peonies have been chewed on too, I've never seen her doing it with the peonies but I can tell it's her. Looking online both peonies and honeysuckle are poisonous to dogs, we also have ivy, and a wall full of clematis but these don't seem to have been eaten. So I decided to cut down the honeysuckle, but not too sure what to do with the peonies as they're pretty big so I'll just keep a close eye on her when she's in the garden.
> A symptoms of ingesting peonies is depression, she definitely is depressed, but I put that down to her itches and cone/collar. Other than that she hasn't shown any other stomach upset other than the bile which I just presume is why she's eating the plants in the first place. She eats the grass every single day, and brings up bile maybe once or twice a week.
> ...


Just had a thought has it got worse since being on the piriton, I know in humans piriton can make them drowsey so looked up dogs, can cause nausea, sickness, odd behaviour and a few other things
Piriton Side Effects in Dogs - VetInfo


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

I know, it's pretty bad, some of the dogs are related, there's 2 related boxers, and 2 related rottweilers. The strange thing is one of the rottweilers has very bad arthritis and rarely goes out, yet (s)he has it just as much as the ones who go to the park everyday! So like you say, it could be something contagious. There's a guy with a crossbred dog who has it really bad, much more severe than Cassie as his dog itches as it's walking! He doesn't seem to be the type to really do anything about it, poor dog, so I try to avoid them just in case it is fleas/mites  other than him they've all been to the vets who have said it was allergies.  

One of the dog who is on atopica has stopped itching now but has to be kept on it. The boxers are on antibiotics which made them stop itching but when coming off it continue to itch. I'm not really sure about the other dogs treatments though but I'll try to find out. The dog who has stopped going in the park used to get really itchy face and runny eyes, which stopped when he stopped taking the dog to the park so I guess that one would definitely be allergies.

I know that during the past year or so due to the council/government cutting funds to parks there's been a huge overgrowth of weeds, especially Himalayan Balsam which absolutely stinks, and the fields which she no longer goes on are really overgrown. Before they cut the funding, the park used to be really nice and clean, including weed free. I guess stuff like that wouldn't really help!

Again, it could all just be contributing to other problems. 1 step at a time I guess, I'm just so impatient!


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Just had a thought has it got worse since being on the piriton, I know in humans piriton can make them drowsey so looked up dogs, can cause nausea, sickness, odd behaviour and a few other things
> Piriton Side Effects in Dogs - VetInfo


It's really difficult to tell if her itching has got worse or stayed the same, because the cone is on her 24/7 with a few 5 minutes being off for when she's eating and when I'm able to physically stop her from biting herself. It's also off for a few hours each day when she's having a walk but she doesn't itch whilst walking. She occasionally itches/bites when I stop to talk to people.

Drowsiness and looking depressed appears to have got worse since the piriton. I have hayfever and used to take piriton which made me drowsy too so I was expecting that I guess. The piriton really hasn't made her itching any better though. I'll use the rest of them up but I won't be buying any more as it just seems a waste. I guess not all dogs respond to piriton for allergies, she still has runny eyes and nose. Could runny eyes and nose be anything other than allergies? Would mites cause those kind of symptoms? I have tried looking before but everything just seems to link to allergies.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> I know, it's pretty bad, some of the dogs are related, there's 2 related boxers, and 2 related rottweilers. The strange thing is one of the rottweilers has very bad arthritis and rarely goes out, yet (s)he has it just as much as the ones who go to the park everyday! So like you say, it could be something contagious. There's a guy with a crossbred dog who has it really bad, much more severe than Cassie as his dog itches as it's walking! He doesn't seem to be the type to really do anything about it, poor dog, so I try to avoid them just in case it is fleas/mites  other than him they've all been to the vets who have said it was allergies.
> 
> One of the dog who is on atopica has stopped itching now but has to be kept on it. The boxers are on antibiotics which made them stop itching but when coming off it continue to itch. I'm not really sure about the other dogs treatments though but I'll try to find out. The dog who has stopped going in the park used to get really itchy face and runny eyes, which stopped when he stopped taking the dog to the park so I guess that one would definitely be allergies.
> 
> ...


I think the only way to do or else you are going to completely be driven insane is to work your way through and rule things in or out as you go to be honest and hope the cause becomes clear sooner rather then later on so you can get the right treatment.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

I will do and I'll be sticking to it. I just feel so bad at times for not temporarily relieving her itching by using steroids or antibiotics like other dogs have. But I know that long term they can be harmful. At least on wednesday I'll be able to bath her in the dermacton! Hopefully that might give her some temporary relief!

I'm off out to walk her now, shall avoid the park today


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Just got back from vets. she's had her skin scrapes, got worming tablets, and stronghold too. He's put her on antibiotics to see if it helps, and is going to try steroids in a few weeks I think, I don't want her on them long term though so I'll just play it by ear. He thinks it's best to wait for the results before having allergy tests, but he's going to contact the lab to see if they do just a food allergy test.

Won't be able to bath her with Dermacton yet because she's sore where he's took the scrapings. But will give her a bath and use the cream when it's healed up a bit. He said results should be back by next Tuesday so giving them a call then.

I was having a look at her belly as she rolled over onto her back in the vets (of all places!) and noticed she's got loads of what looks like bites on her belly, pink marks that are slightly raised, they weren't there a few days ago when I last checked, so I'm wondering if she still has fleas and the Acclaim, and stronghold hasn't got rid, or if it could be something else. Do you know if allergies can show as small red rashes 5p sized that are slightly raised? It does look like a bite, but I couldn't definitely say. He said he'd have a look at them when he took cass for the scrapes, but forgot to ask him what he thought they were


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Just got back from vets. she's had her skin scrapes, got worming tablets, and stronghold too. He's put her on antibiotics to see if it helps, and is going to try steroids in a few weeks I think, I don't want her on them long term though so I'll just play it by ear. He thinks it's best to wait for the results before having allergy tests, but he's going to contact the lab to see if they do just a food allergy test.
> 
> Won't be able to bath her with Dermacton yet because she's sore where he's took the scrapings. But will give her a bath and use the cream when it's healed up a bit. He said results should be back by next Tuesday so giving them a call then.
> 
> I was having a look at her belly as she rolled over onto her back in the vets (of all places!) and noticed she's got loads of what looks like bites on her belly, pink marks that are slightly raised, they weren't there a few days ago when I last checked, so I'm wondering if she still has fleas and the Acclaim, and stronghold hasn't got rid, or if it could be something else. Do you know if allergies can show as small red rashes 5p sized that are slightly raised? It does look like a bite, but I couldn't definitely say. He said he'd have a look at them when he took cass for the scrapes, but forgot to ask him what he thought they were


Trouble is if shes scratching her belly it could even be trauma. Just a thought but does she lay in the garden and do you know if you have ants. Ant bites can be very itchy and cause raised areas. Nanuq when young loved to dig and
I caught her one day digging up an ants nest and they were running all up her legs. I brushed them off but she got a couple of bites, and they were raised she also gnawed and worried at it and ended up with bald patches.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Trouble is if shes scratching her belly it could even be trauma. Just a thought but does she lay in the garden and do you know if you have ants. Ant bites can be very itchy and cause raised areas. Nanuq when young loved to dig and
> I caught her one day digging up an ants nest and they were running all up her legs. I brushed them off but she got a couple of bites, and they were raised she also gnawed and worried at it and ended up with bald patches.


She does lie in the garden a bit but not for long periods and it's mainly on the paving where it's cool. I can't say I've seen any ant's lately though we do usually have some, maybe there's not many about due to the rubbish weather? She's shaved under her belly now, so they might be more visible. I haven't had a look since she got back home, will try take some photos tonight if they show up on camera. It's just strange how they've came on within a few days, as the ones she had a few weeks ago appeared to vanish!

One thing I talked to him about, were the use of steroids. He said he doesn't like to give them out, but due to being on piriton she would only need to be on a very low dose, and the side affects aren't usually anywhere near as bad as human side affects on steroids, due to the short term that a dog lives for any problems don't have time to get bad. He said she shouldn't really have any problems on them if she needed them long term. I still made it clear that I'd rather her not have them long term, but what he said kinda contradicts everything I've read about steroids. I'd still like to try them out short term for a couple of weeks to see if they make any difference to her though.

Edit:
Regards trauma, I'm not actually sure if she can itch the bit where the 'spots' are, I know she has a couple near her inner leg, so she deffinately can't get to that, but the main group of them is on her belly on the squidgy bit after the rib cage stops, I'd have to have a look where she can actually itch with her back leg, but I've only ever seen her itching her sides I think.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> She does lie in the garden a bit but not for long periods and it's mainly on the paving where it's cool. I can't say I've seen any ant's lately though we do usually have some, maybe there's not many about due to the rubbish weather? She's shaved under her belly now, so they might be more visible. I haven't had a look since she got back home, will try take some photos tonight if they show up on camera. It's just strange how they've came on within a few days, as the ones she had a few weeks ago appeared to vanish!
> 
> One thing I talked to him about, were the use of steroids. He said he doesn't like to give them out, but due to being on piriton she would only need to be on a very low dose, and the side affects aren't usually anywhere near as bad as human side affects on steroids, due to the short term that a dog lives for any problems don't have time to get bad. He said she shouldn't really have any problems on them if she needed them long term. I still made it clear that I'd rather her not have them long term, but what he said kinda contradicts everything I've read about steroids. I'd still like to try them out short term for a couple of weeks to see if they make any difference to her though.
> 
> ...


Seems you can get lesions with deomdectic mange
Classically with generalized demodicosis, the entire dog is affected with patchy fur, skin infections, bald, scaly skin. Sometimes large patches of affected skin are present, sometimes multiple "polka dots" of lesions cover the dog, and sometimes the entire body is involved. The secondary bacterial infections make this a very itchy and often smelly skin disease. The approach to generalized demodicosis typically depends on the age at which the dog developed the disease.

Demodectic Mange
There is a link on the above to sarcoptic mange if you check, and the belly is one of the prime areas.

with sarcoptic mange too you can get pustules
Dog Mange Symptoms

Pustules on the dog's skin, 
Redness, 
Scaling, 
Hair loss
Crusting
Inflammation

Dog mange causes, symptoms and treatment of demodectic and sarcoptic mange


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Another update.
She's been on antibiotics for about 5 days now, and he itching yesterday and today seems to have gotten a bit better. I cant tell for sure because she has been wanting to lick her skin where the scraping was done even though its pretty much healed now, so she isn't leaving that area alone 100% but she definately isn't going for her bum as much as she was a week ago. Any idea what this could mean? Would antibiotics stop itching due to mites or allergies? 

I've given her a bath in dermacton this afternoon, used the ear stuff and put a bit of cream on her chin where she kicks at. Will find out the results from the skin scrapings on tuesday, and ill start using the stronghold in a few days, I wanted to put it on now but she's had a bath so im best waiting.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Another update.
> She's been on antibiotics for about 5 days now, and he itching yesterday and today seems to have gotten a bit better. I cant tell for sure because she has been wanting to lick her skin where the scraping was done even though its pretty much healed now, so she isn't leaving that area alone 100% but she definately isn't going for her bum as much as she was a week ago. Any idea what this could mean? Would antibiotics stop itching due to mites or allergies?
> 
> I've given her a bath in dermacton this afternoon, used the ear stuff and put a bit of cream on her chin where she kicks at. Will find out the results from the skin scrapings on tuesday, and ill start using the stronghold in a few days, I wanted to put it on now but she's had a bath so im best waiting.


Antibiotics wont stop mites or fungal infections or allergies, but they will stop any bacterial infection or secondary bacterial infection from the scratching and itching and traumatising the skin. I would think if the scrapes are taking this long they have sent them off for bacterial and fungal cultures as well.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

She's been sat next to me on sofa all morning without her collar on and she's only gone to bite her back leg once up to now, massive improvement from a few days ago, so something is happening. If antibiotics only work on infections then that means the cause of the itching was down to an infection, or secondary infection from itching and traumatising her skin?

A friend in the park, as I mentioned a few days ago, had his dog on antibiotics, which helped but once off them, the itching came back, so he went back on them and it stopped again, and so on. Could antibiotics suppress a yeast infection at all? I know yeast is fungal and not bacterial, but im sure ive read that they suppress the fungal infection then when they come off the antibiotics the fungal infection goes worse. Do you know if that is true?

Her nose and eyes are still bad, but at the moment shes back to how she was before the whole thing errupted, fingers crossed she stays like that when she comes off the antibiotics.

By the way, after reading the article you sent me the other day, ive purchased some coconut oil, so will start giving her that when it arrives. I'm currently giving her a sludgey mix of probiotics, garlic, and salmon oil, which she loves lol


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Anti biotics usually only work on bacteria, did you use the dermacton shampoo bar? if so thats anti fungal and antibacterial, dermacton usually starts to work pretty quickly as well in a lot of cases so that may well be helping the situation as well.


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## ryanr (Aug 7, 2012)

Yeah I gave her a bath last night with the dermacton shampoo bar, but the signs of her stopping itching started before the bath. Although, today she seems even better than yesterday, so it could be a combo of antibiotics and the dermacton that's helping at the moment. Will just have to wait and see what happens then! I think she's been prescribed 1 month of antibiotics, so when she comes off them I'll keep a close eye on her. He did say we should try steroids, which I think he wanted us to put her on this week, but I'll give it a pass for the time being and play things by ear.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

ryanr said:


> Yeah I gave her a bath last night with the dermacton shampoo bar, but the signs of her stopping itching started before the bath. Although, today she seems even better than yesterday, so it could be a combo of antibiotics and the dermacton that's helping at the moment. Will just have to wait and see what happens then! I think she's been prescribed 1 month of antibiotics, so when she comes off them I'll keep a close eye on her. He did say we should try steroids, which I think he wanted us to put her on this week, but I'll give it a pass for the time being and play things by ear.


Any improvement is at least a step in the right direction, hopefully you will eventually completely get to the bottom of it. Thing is if you try too much all at once them you are not going to know exactly what the problem may have been in the first place so will end up none the wiser in the end, also you may be giving her more and more things some of which might not even be needed in the first place either. Better really is to try things as you go, see what improvement cure you get, and then take it from there if you have too.

Its likely from all the itchy scratcey she has got a degree of bacterial infection even if its secondary and not the underlying problem so at least the ABs will be dealing with that, Dermacton has helped too in a lot of cases and even if you had to use that on a regular basis, at least its all natural and has no nasty long term side effects so that wouldnt be the end of the world if it keeps it all under control and alleviates the problems. Some of her problems may even be seasonal itching which is why you have seen a wrosening of late, which you may find stops at certain times of the year aswell or at least gets a lot less and doesnt add to the problems.


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