# Awful dog fight led to Shadow being taken to vets :(



## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

Milton attacked Shadow earlier. It was an awful fight. I honestly thought he was going to rip of shadows ear. There was blood everywhere and all of Shadows white fur was covered in blood and so was the livingroom. Shadow was still dripping with blood when we arrived at the vet but thankfully he doesn't need any stitches. He has about 6 wounds around his face and ear but they are all small puncture wounds.

Was so scary. It lasted for ages. A good 4 or 5 minutes and my husband got bitten trying to stop the fight and Milton simply would not let go of shadow and was shaking Shadow about quite violently. Milton has also attacked Angel a few times but nothing as bad as this.

Not sure what to do for the best. We love him so much but we can't have him attacking our other pets. My 5 year old daughter was near them when Milton went for the attack and was almost caught up in their fight.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MLB said:


> Milton attacked Shadow earlier. It was an awful fight. I honestly thought he was going to rip of shadows ear. There was blood everywhere and all of Shadows white fur was covered in blood and so was the livingroom. Shadow was still dripping with blood when we arrived at the vet but thankfully he doesn't need any stitches. He has about 6 wounds around his face and ear but they are all small puncture wounds.
> 
> Was so scary. It lasted for ages. A good 4 or 5 minutes and my husband got bitten trying to stop the fight and Milton simply would not let go of shadow and was shaking Shadow about quite violently. Milton has also attacked Angel a few times but nothing as bad as this.
> 
> Not sure what to do for the best. We love him so much but we can't have him attacking our other pets. My 5 year old daughter was near them when Milton went for the attack and was almost caught up in their fight.


Hope everyones OK including your Hubby, although he needs to keep an eye on where he has been bitten, if the area starts to swell up then usually thats a sign of infection even if its just an odd puncture wound they can and he will need antibiotics.

Is this the first time its happened? any triggers or causes that you can think of?
Most common ones are food, treats and chews, toys, attention and confined spaces and times of hyper excitement leads out for walks, visitors coming, door bells ringing etc. these are the main things causing dogs to compete and fight. If they were fighting for that long with that much intent and Milton wouldnt let go, then it does sound like its a bad one. Two same sexes often go at each other more and with more intent. Usually its easier to control and manage a situation if you can identify and know what the trigger is.

I notice you have others two, and females. Are they all spayed and neutered?
if not any chance that the female could be coming into season if she isnt, thats often another reason why males will fight and compete.

I think you said Milton and Angel are escalating too into fights although only in the garden and the rest of the time too. If it is Milton starting it and going for Angel too even though not as bad but causing any injuries, then really you do need to think about getting him assessed and professional help. Dogs usually unless they have behavioural problems dont usually really go for a bitch with any real intent, although some breeds can be untolerant to dogs in general and will sometimes have a go at opposite as well as same sexes.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

That must have been awful. Milton looks like a chunkier version of Jackson. No advice just hope you are all recovering and that you can get help to resolve this.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> Hope everyones OK including your Hubby, although he needs to keep an eye on where he has been bitten, if the area starts to swell up then usually thats a sign of infection even if its just an odd puncture wound they can and he will need antibiotics.
> 
> Is this the first time its happened? any triggers or causes that you can think of?
> Most common ones are food, treats and chews, toys, attention and confined spaces and times of hyper excitement leads out for walks, visitors coming, door bells ringing etc. these are the main things causing dogs to compete and fight. If they were fighting for that long with that much intent and Milton wouldnt let go, then it does sound like its a bad one. Two same sexes often go at each other more and with more intent. Usually its easier to control and manage a situation if you can identify and know what the trigger is.
> ...


Hi, Yes this is the first time it has happened. They are all neutered except for Angel who will be spayed in January (waiting for inbetween seasons as advised by the vet.) Milton was only neutered last Monday so I doubt hormones have left his body, I believe it can take several months ?? The attack didn't seem to have a reason. Shadow simply walked into the livingroom and Milton jumped off the sofa and just basically flew at him and launched onto his ear and side of his neck. I have just found out by a neighbour that her dog is in season as spoke to her while putting my rubbish out into the bin. She lives a few houses up. Do you think that her dog being in season could be a reason? She does walk her dog past our house.

We have had no more incidents with Angel & Milton and I have been able to let them out in the garden together but only when I go right out with them. They get excited but I say a firm No and it instantly calms down and they go for a wander to different areas of the garden for a sniff and a pee etc

I'm not sure if we can afford a behaviourist at the moment and I'm pretty sure my insurance doesn't cover behavioural problems so not sure what I can do there. I'm beginning to think the previous owner didn't want him for this very reason. She gave us the reason that she just couldn't cope with the two dogs but gave the impression it was just a handful with two pups but i'm wondering if it was because her dogs were fighting.

My husband is ok. He didn't get badly bitten but it did bleed quite alot. He knew he was at risk of geting bitten but he couldn't just stand there and do nothing as we thought Milton was going to rip shadows ear off.


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

i would advise short term you invest in crates and child gates....

behaviourst mabey?? they can see first hand any warning signs etc...?

how old is milton/whats the history?


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

I hope you can find a solution and everyone heals ok. Perhaps its worth a chat with the previous owner. Just asking for more information might help identify triggers.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

suze23 said:


> i would advise short term you invest in crates and child gates....
> 
> behaviourst mabey?? they can see first hand any warning signs etc...?
> 
> how old is milton/whats the history?


Milton is 8 months old. Originally we found him as a stray a couple of months ago with another puppy. We found them on a Sunday and had phoned about to find out who they belonged to but nobody had reported them missing. The dog wardens don't operate at weekends so we kept them overnight. Warden came out when opened to scan pups but no microchip was found on either pup. Warden asked if we would like to keep hold of pups untill owner was found. We said we would keep Milton but the female one was showing signs of agression towards our rabbits and cats so she went with the warden while Milton stayed with us. My husband and I thought the pups had been abandoned and nobody would claim them but they did a few days later. The owner knocked at our door with the dog warden with her and we said our goodbyes. A month later she knocks on our door and says do we want Milton (she knew we were wanting to keep him if he wasnt claimed) We said yes and she basically just let go of his lead and he ran into our house happily. He didn't even have a proper lead. Just a belt from a top/jacket tighed to his very tight collar No bed, food bowls nothing and my husband tried to talk to her but she was in a hurry to leave and left us with very little info about him. He is a staffy x american Bulldog.


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## suze23 (Jun 3, 2011)

ahh right so his history is a little shaky it would be fair to say?

definately short term i would advise crating and separating until you can find the trigger.... or if there isnt one long term i wouldnt trust him around the other dog's or your child quite frankly.

i had a dog aggressive dog, she would also go for kids if they came anywhere near (pure fear...)... we managed her well - she would be offlead only around dogs she knew - she would run past them and liedown - if they came over to her she would go for them - again fear....but with kids theres no way on this planet would she be allowed to go within 50 meters of them - if i saw a child id turn and go - i dont have kids so it was a little more managable for me - but any other dog's and she would happily rip them to shreds if we let her when she was on lead. 
As it happens my other bitch who i have now is terrified of kids - so barks at them - she also hates dog's in her face with a passion and will go for them (and frankly if an owner let's their dog run out of control then they have themselves to blame)... but my point is she has never been in a situation to hate kids....or other dogs...she just dosent like them

so for a dog with a shaky background - once attacked, he will go again this i would say for certain - especially to draw blood

im not qualified enough to answer *how* to handle it as quite honestly i think a behaviourist would be a good idea tbh...


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

He is a lovely dog towards people and kids. I honestly don't think he would hurt my three kids or any person deliberately. He has nipped when excited but nothing drastic. Hes a real cuddly baby. In fact i'd go as far as saying he is probably our most affectionate dog out of the 5 we have. He is in his crate at the moment and is calm and content but we can't keep him locked up, that would be cruel. When he is out of the crate though we are keeping the other dogs separate from him now.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

So sorry to hear of your problem and hope Shadow makes a full recovery. Think long and hard about your options, eight months is pretty young to be acting so aggressively even if there is an in season bitch up the road. At that age my boys (Mals) weren't even cocking their legs let alone being bothered about bitches. As you don't know his parents history at all that's another down side, you've no idea what their temperaments were like either. 

You can use baby gates and crates but as you have young children can you really be sure one of them will never be 'in the line of fire' for the entire life of Milton? I know what it's like to keep a potentially aggressive dog separated from the rest and Kali has drawn blood whenever she's had a go at one of the dogs, she can be called off though and has ever caused substantial injuries enough to warrant vet treatment. A slip up here with the gate left ajar led to little Britches being attacked by Kali a couple of months ago and with five adults in the house we didn't think any if us could be so complacent for that to occur but accidents can happen to any of us. 

Living with the constant guarding of gates being closed every time you go through them, shuffling dogs through the house avoiding contact with another and having a divided back garden is pure crap I can tell you and if I'd had grandchildren or any child in this house it's not something I would have been willing to chance. None of my other five dogs can have the freedom they deserve and all because of one. Kali too is lovely with people and probably would have been better off placed in s one dog home, i think all of their lives would have benefited from that but we stuck by her hoping she would change, she hasn't and i think was worse after being spayed - something we kinda hoped may benefit her moods but no. No life for any of them really and a stressful seven odd years so far for us. Think carefully about what you will have to do to keep everyone safe under these conditions. 

Hugs, I know it's not easy. xx


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MLB said:


> Hi, Yes this is the first time it has happened. They are all neutered except for Angel who will be spayed in January (waiting for inbetween seasons as advised by the vet.) Milton was only neutered last Monday so I doubt hormones have left his body, I believe it can take several months ?? The attack didn't seem to have a reason. Shadow simply walked into the livingroom and Milton jumped off the sofa and just basically flew at him and launched onto his ear and side of his neck. I have just found out by a neighbour that her dog is in season as spoke to her while putting my rubbish out into the bin. She lives a few houses up. Do you think that her dog being in season could be a reason? She does walk her dog past our house.
> 
> We have had no more incidents with Angel & Milton and I have been able to let them out in the garden together but only when I go right out with them. They get excited but I say a firm No and it instantly calms down and they go for a wander to different areas of the garden for a sniff and a pee etc
> 
> ...


If Miltons only been neutered for less then a week, Angels an entire female and there is a female in season literally a couple of doors down, and the dogs also walked past your house in season, then it could have quite possibly played a part. A male can smell and know a bitch is in season over considerable distances.
If shes still being walked then she will also be spreading the smell about in her pee. Male dogs have been known to suddenly escape and take off and follow the scent over distances. It can also be the cause of males warring, even sometimes ones that get on usually. So if not the main cause it certainly wont be doing the situation any favours.

You also dont know the history though either, so dont know for sure if he could have agressive tendencies or a history of fighting with other dogs. So it could be possible that he may have a history or may not. Howver the situation above as said may well be adding fuel to the fire or could even be the major cause, hard to say for deffinate, only way is to perhaps have him assed to know for sure or get a better idea. If there hasnt been any incidences previous to this though could be a factor.

Whats he like when you walk him is he reactive to other dogs maybe especially males in general? Although outside on neutral territory can be different to inside it may give you an indication, if he is agressive to dogs outside and especially males even more so then females.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If Miltons only been neutered for less then a week, Angels an entire female and there is a female in season literally a couple of doors down, and the dogs also walked past your house in season, then it could have quite possibly played a part. A male can smell and know a bitch is in season over considerable distances.
> If shes still being walked then she will also be spreading the smell about in her pee. Male dogs have been known to suddenly escape and take off and follow the scent over distances. It can also be the cause of males warring, even sometimes ones that get on usually. So if not the main cause it certainly wont be doing the situation any favours.
> 
> You also dont know the history though either, so dont know for sure if he could have agressive tendencies or a history of fighting with other dogs. So it could be possible that he may have a history or may not. Howver the situation above as said may well be adding fuel to the fire or could even be the major cause, hard to say for deffinate, only way is to perhaps have him assed to know for sure or get a better idea. If there hasnt been any incidences previous to this though could be a factor.
> ...


Since last night everything has been quite calm. we have periods where we have put him in a crate (when he gets too excitable) and let him mingle with the others under a careful eye when he is being calm. Shadow and Milton appear to have forgotton yesterday and are being fine around each other but obviously we are keeping our eyes on them all the time. We can't separate using baby gates as he just jumps straight over them and although he settles in a crate he doesn't like being in there too long which is understandable.

He is usually good on walks when meeting other dogs. If meeting on a lead he will stiffen a little and hold his tail high and then depending on the reaction of the other dog he then relaxes and starts wagging his tail. If another dog growls at him, he goes back in to the stiff like position, I then say goodbye to the other owner and walk him away. Off lead we haven't had any problems at all with him. He can be a little rough in the way he plays with other dogs but nothing vicious and When I call him away from a rough play he listens and comes straight back to me.

I can't walk him with my other dogs though as he gets over excited when with the 'pack' and starts a barking frenzy amonst all my dogs if he spots a cat, dog or any moving animal. On his own he doesn't do this. Nor do my other dogs when Milton isn't with them.

I prefer walking my dogs singly or two maximum anyway as I have better control and can throw in some training while on our walks.

I don't want to rehome him, I want to give him a chance and see if his hormones calm down from the neutering but we really can't afford a bahaviourist (not right at this moment anyway) and i've checked with my insurer and they don't cover behavior problems. If he Does need a behaviourist then we will have to think about rehoming him. We really don't want to do this as love him to bits but don't know what else we can do to help him if his behaviour doesn't improve.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MLB said:


> Since last night everything has been quite calm. we have periods where we have put him in a crate (when he gets too excitable) and let him mingle with the others under a careful eye when he is being calm. Shadow and Milton appear to have forgotton yesterday and are being fine around each other but obviously we are keeping our eyes on them all the time. We can't separate using baby gates as he just jumps straight over them and although he settles in a crate he doesn't like being in there too long which is understandable.
> 
> He is usually good on walks when meeting other dogs. If meeting on a lead he will stiffen a little and hold his tail high and then depending on the reaction of the other dog he then relaxes and starts wagging his tail. If another dog growls at him, he goes back in to the stiff like position, I then say goodbye to the other owner and walk him away. Off lead we haven't had any problems at all with him. He can be a little rough in the way he plays with other dogs but nothing vicious and When I call him away from a rough play he listens and comes straight back to me.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately not seeing him and only having your posts and descriptions to go by, really all I can do is give you thoughts. Thats why having someone to actually assess him is better and much more accurate. But based on what you have said.

It seems that hyper excitement both with the garden situation and in general is one of the triggers that sets him off, and in a hyper excited aroused state dogs can become reactive. Its also one of the known triggers to set dogs off competing and squabbling. So putting him in the crate when he starts to get hyper and letting it all calm down is deffinately something you need to watch for and carry on. You also need to be aware of situations that can make him hyper and control and manage that too, it can be things like visitors arriving and when they first come in. Door Bells ringing and things like getting leads out and preparing for walks. Carry on with the close supervision when they are all calm and relaxed too and letting them mingle, but first signs of getting exciteable continue to control and manage the situation. You also need to be aware of changes in his body language and any changes in the other dogs too
and manage accordingly as it could mean possible challenging if it changes from relaxed and laid back.

You could look into Dog control gates they are usually taller and more robust and see if you think they will be enough to maybe contain him instead, you can get various heights and types.

Although he is good on walks mostly from what you have said with other dogs, he can obviously depending on the situation become reactive or start to be. Dogs can often become more reactive on lead then off, because they often feel disadvantaged as their options for dealing with a situation is more limited. They cant exercise flight (run away) they havent got the space and time to weigh up the situation and use various body languages. So they tend to exercise fight more. Often you will see dogs, become vocal, bark growl, show teeth, maybe even lunge that is often defensive to make the other dog back off. If all he does though from what you say is stiffen pull himself up to full height and hold his tail high, then that sounds he is likely more getting ready to steam in
and put up/take up a challenge if he feels the need too. As you say depending on the reaction of the other dog he will then become relaxed and friendly thats at least a positive sign, if the dog growls though he goes back into the stiff tail high position, it sounds like deffinately the wrong dog, wrong situation he would possibly take it further so the potential for it to exacerbate is still there, if you didnt remove him and avoid it. Check too if you can if he seems to do it more to male dogs then females, you may find it is more confined to same sexes especially un neutered or more full on males. Again if you find it is confined more to males then its easier to avoid trouble and not put him in the situations to start with, so again by being aware of the triggers, certain dogs and what behaviours cause him to do it it should be easier to manage and control.

If you do let him off and although you have said he has no problems off lead
and a lot of dogs can be fine off lead but not on it may just be confined to being on lead mostly. But as he had the fight last night and you say you cant think of anything that caused it, it does sound that possibly off lead given the wrong dog and wrong situation he could still possibly have the potential to steam in as he can obviously become reactive and capable of taking things further especially as even over excitement seems to be a trigger alone on occasion.

He also obviously influences the others when out, as when he gets exciteable he does set them all off with behaviour they obviously dont do when he isnt there. Even if he didnt set the others off, personally I would walk him alone anyway as you need full concentration on his training when out and about and to control and manage possible situations and work with him alone to start to overcome the problems. You would likely find the others would start to get in the same behaviour eventually anyway with his influence and then instead of one you could end up with the whole lot to have to work on modifying and changing their behaviour.

You also need to be aware of the other common triggers to set dogs off too that I mentioned before like food, toys, chews especially, attention, confined spaces as well as times of hyper excitement as sometimes although not all although it maybe starts with one or two triggers it can escalate to having other situations and triggers that can start it off, its maybe only one or two that will ever cause it, but being aware and avoiding/managing other possible ones should ensure it doesnt.

Obviously just in case at the moment, I wouldnt leave them together when unattended either, especially as you are not completely sure what seemed to kick it off last night for certain


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Hey, I hope shadow is making a full recovery!

I just wanted to share my own experience. My pup was rescued at 5 months old and was fiercely aggressive towards people related to resource guarding, no age is to young to show aggression and he bit me and 2 others quite badly. Apart from a bit of an issue with a certain resident dog I have noticed lately he is like a new dog. It took me roughly 6 months of hard work to turn him around. 

Also he was castrated at 8 months and his behaviour was 10X worse for 2 months following the op. I thought i had made a huge mistake as I had completely lost control of him and he was worse then ever with hyperactivity and a massive sexual drive. He also tried to kill my kitten in a frenzy after bolting around the housing nipping at everyone! After about 4 months he was completely back to normal and he has now matured into a sensible calm young dog.

It could be a whole array of things, I think a mixture of his energy levels with the release of all those hormones from his castration, an in season bitch down the road and an intact resident female could have easily led to an issue arising. Staffies have great tenacity and really go for it when getting involved in a fight so its important you put a stop to it before it escalates. Concentrate on calming him down, make sure he is always in a calm state of mind before anything rewarding such as food, walks or play etc. the crate is brilliant for giving him and your other dogs space from each other. Also look out for very little things between Milton and shadow, make sure the tension isn't rising between them which then explodes into a fight like they had. Good luck! Milton is a very handsome dog!


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## Guest (Dec 12, 2012)

Hi just to update.

Shadow is healing well. Hes quite scabby at the mo but there is no lasting damage and he still likes Milton although I can't say the same about Milton. If anything he is getting worse with my other dogs. The only one he hasn't gone for is Chaos now. He had a go at Holly the other day but we managed to stop it before it got bad.

We are finding Milton so hard to deal with and although I know some of you won't agree and say I've given up too quickly etc we have decided to rehome him. Him being here isn't fair on my other pets and not fair on my children or him either.

My friends uncle is having him after christmas. He lives in Scotland on his own and has recently lost a dog to old age and is very lonely as doesn't have many visitors. He is coming down to my friends house for christmas and will visit us at the same time. If he likes Milton he will be taking Milton with him back to scotland after the festive season. We don't have the time or money to see a behaviourist and my friends uncle does. He is aware of the problems but said he hardly ever sees another dog when out on walks anyway but he will try and get him some help so hopefully can overcome this problem with him. He will however have a forever home with him and I do think he will be perfect for Milton.

We love him to bits but we just can't handle his aggression towards the other dogs. If we didn't have the other dogs and we didn't have 3 young children then we would of worked at this but we just don't have the money or time and our other dogs safety has to come first.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

MLB said:


> Hi just to update.
> 
> Shadow is healing well. Hes quite scabby at the mo but there is no lasting damage and he still likes Milton although I can't say the same about Milton. If anything he is getting worse with my other dogs. The only one he hasn't gone for is Chaos now. He had a go at Holly the other day but we managed to stop it before it got bad.
> 
> ...


In all honesty in this case I think your doing the right thing. If he is having a go at all the dogs and bitches too as well, then he will likely be better off as an only dog with someone who dotes on him, and if he does still have some quirks and problems when out walking, he has the time and finances to get them sorted. You have already had to have a vet visit, and luckily there isnt any complications. Hopefully this relative likes him and can take him on, at least you know where he is going can keep in touch and he will get what help he needs. Being as you have the other dogs and especially small kids to think of then I think this is deffinately his best chance and its the right thing.
Some dogs just cant live with other dogs, but give them a home on their own then they are fine.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Best decision all round and hope your relative likes Milton. Like I said to you if I'd had young children/grand children I wouldn't have risked Kali but in all honesty she isn't that bad and doesn't attack at random, Theres usually a cause - one time it was a tomato dropped on the floor that she deemed hers and in some ways Bruce doesn't help as he'll rise to the occasion at the drop of a hat. 

You won't get any flack from me that's for sure, with children in the mix there is too big a risk of redirection or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time - better for your other dogs too.


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## Shrap (Nov 22, 2010)

Sounds like a good decision to me, it's not something you could have foreseen beforehand.

I hope he has a happy life


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Glad to hear shadow is recovering well! I also think you are making the right decision! The safety of your children and other pets should take priority over Milton. You can't spare the time or money on him which is completely unfair on him, either he or your others are going to lead a very unhealthy and stressed life or one of your dogs or even children could get seriously injured.

I hope all goes well with his move to Scotland and he can have a happy life with the help he needs!


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2012)

We have decided we are keeping Milton. We can't let him go. The kids don't want him to go, Ben doesn't want him to go and even though what he has done was awful (I don't know if you have seen my other thread but he has killed one of our cats) we still love him alot and I don't want him to go either. I will NEVER trust him around other animals again so he will be fully supervised at all times and when he can't be he will be crated and he will always be kept on a lead and Muzzle out on walks. We fear that if he goes to another home he will just get passed on again when they can't deal with his issues (a few more things have been surfacing recently). He loves us and our kids and although dog & cat aggressive I don't doubt for one moment he would ever hurt a person.
I'm going to have a good sort out in the New year and sell things so we can afford to pay to have him seen by a professional behaviorist and will ask our vet to refer us to one that they recommend.


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## SleepyBones (Apr 17, 2011)

Firstly I am sorry to hear about that...but..

The photos suggest you have 5 dogs & if interdog aggression is starting amongst them than I think the only realistic thing to say is....its make your mind up time, there is no such thing as a proffessional _'make the dogs like each other_' expert.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think you are making a big mistake. I do hope no person gets hurt and that you do not lose any of your other pets to him. If you are afraid that he might get passed on if you rehome him then do the responsible thing and have him put to sleep.
Chances are he would be fine with the bloke that was going to have him - did he like him.


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## cats galore (Jul 17, 2012)

i hope everything works out for milton and that things settle down. it must have been awful when he attacked shadow and even worse when he killed your cat. i'm afraid if he had been mine i wouldn't have the nerve to keep him in case anything else happened. i really do hope things settle down for you all


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I think you are making a big mistake. I do hope no person gets hurt and that you do not lose any of your other pets to him. If you are afraid that he might get passed on if you rehome him then do the responsible thing and have him put to sleep.
> Chances are he would be fine with the bloke that was going to have him - did he like him.


The bloke that was going to have him decided he didn't want him after hearing he had killed one of our cats. He didn't come up to see him, the message was just passed onto me via a facebook message.

We have tried all the rescues but they either have no space or not willing to take him because they fear he wouldn't get rehomed anyway as there are lots of other dogs like him which are ok with other dogs and cats which people would most likely choose over him.

We have found out who his breeder is and he is not a good person. He breeds dogs to fight and the ones that don't come upto his liking get sold.

Milton is very friendly with people and I'm certain he would not hurt anyone. I can't pts just because he has the occasional scrap. The triggers seem to be excitement. When he is calm he gets on very well with the other dogs and we are working on keeping him calm by rewarding his good behaviour. Hes very intelligent and quick to learn and he is already starting to show a calmer nature.

I'm aware there is no quick fix but i'm prepared to do all I can to help him. We love him so much and the thought of pts when he is great with people is too upsetting. Myself and my husband cannot do it, We are going to try our best and help him. If in a few months we see no improvement then we may consider it but we will try our best with him before that.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2012)

MLB said:


> The bloke that was going to have him decided he didn't want him after hearing he had killed one of our cats. He didn't come up to see him, the message was just passed onto me via a facebook message.
> 
> We have tried all the rescues but they either have no space or not willing to take him because they fear he wouldn't get rehomed anyway as there are lots of other dogs like him which are ok with other dogs and cats which people would most likely choose over him.
> 
> ...


MLB, I'm so sorry you're going through this. What a tough place to be...
When pets get killed and injured it becomes a very emotive subject, and folks will respond accordingly. I'm going to try and reply to you in practical terms bearing in mind you have decided to keep Milton.

First off, you MUST keep him separated from the rest of your dogs until you have a professional come in and give you specific protocols for how he will be allowed to interact with the other dogs in your house, (IF he is ever allowed to interact). The more fights and scuffles that happen the more will happen, these things tend to get worse as the dogs are allowed to practice the behavior, not better. Not to mention you have young children in the mix and Milton has already shown he will redirect on to a human in a fight. You can NOT take any chances here.

By separated I don't mean baby gates, I mean a solid door between him and the other dogs. You'll have to schedule your life around the dogs getting "family" time. When Milton is out, the other dogs are put away, and when the other dogs are out, Milton is put away. I'd invest in some yummy bones or kongs or meal dispensers to entertain the dogs while they're put away so the separation is not as unpleasant for them.

Please go out today and get a properly fitted basket muzzle for Milton and begin desensitizing him to wearing it comfortably.

You must get professional help for this. Milton will never be 100% safe around other dogs (and I would run away from any professional who claims such), but you can get some rock solid obedience on him, some impulse control built in, and some better coping skills that will make him saf*er* than he is now. 
And yes, as you already know, it will take time and a LOT of dedication on your part.

Speaking of dedication and time, you and your OH should probably sit down and make some practical decisions about how far you are willing to go with this. Are you okay with a dog who has to be separated from the rest of your dogs for life? Is that something you can reasonably live with for the rest of Milton's life? If not, how long are you willing to give him to improve? There are no "right" or "wrong" answers here, but I think it's worth discussing it now rather than when/if the next crisis happens.

I truly wish you the best.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Best of luck MLB, I hope everything works out for you xxxx


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

OMG - I can't believe he has killed one of your cats and you are still keeping him! Goodness that poor cat, what a terrible thing to happen. Mals have high prey drives and Mickey (my cat) now lives over the road with a childless couple who just have two cats, he has practically adopted them. But he won't stay in their house so every winter and only winter he comes back home and sleeps here. Considering my dogs don't see him for months on end they take no notice when Mickey strolls back in, they don't go after cats outside either!

Kids don't decide you can't get rid of a potentially dangerous dog - you do that for the sake of your other pets. Folk can 'de rep' me but had that been a situation I was in the dog would have been down the vets as soon as that deed was done. My other pets and the potential danger in the future to my children if caught in the 'line of fire' would be too big a risk for just one dog. 

I am flabbergasted at your decision, just flabbergasted!


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## Howl (Apr 10, 2012)

I am sorry your family is going through this. Personally I don't think children should make these decisions but I have never been in this situation and honestly don't know what I would do if it was one of mine.  
Part of the reason I am in two minds about taking on another dog is because I would be worried where they would go if it didn't work. 
We have moved forward with E a lot but it can take such a long time to see progress with stubborn breeds. 
Best of Luck I hope you can find a solution that works.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

MLB said:


> My 5 year old daughter was near them when Milton went for the attack and was almost caught up in their fight.


Just not worth the risk by any means!


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

So you have cats, and your latest addition is a cat killer - and you are keeping him? Unbelievable!


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2012)

I had a feeling this would be the reaction and tbh I think if someone came on here and said this I'd be saying the same as you but it's so much harder when it is actually your pet that has a problem and not someone elses. 

We love him so much. For the most part he is very sweet, kind and loving and has never shown any aggression towards a person but still no rescues want to take him. He is ok with my dogs most of the time but when he gets excited it turns into a fight but we are controlling this and he is so much better at being calm. When he is calm he is the best dog. We want to try and see if we can help him before having him pts.

This really ain't easy for us. We might not of had him for long but he is a part of our family and we love him so much.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Well done you 

It's impossible to give up on a pet, especially when you are it's last chance. If I had given up on mine without trying I would never have forgiven myself. 

My dog used to attack me on a daily basis when I rescued him, I was covered in cuts and bruises and quite honestly I was petrified of him for a good 3+ months. He tried to kill my kitten, he tried to kill 2 other cats out on the field. But I never gave up on him, there was no way anyone or any rescue would take him! It was me or death. Today, he is the best dog I've ever known! Having to work so hard with him has created an unbreakable bond and I have so much pride in him. He is what I have made him. 

Similar situation with a resident dog, fine with people but very aggressive towards other dogs especially when excited and I to have been bitten when breaking up a fight. You have to be persistent and keep it slow/calm, make sure you walk Milton with any of the dogs he doesn't get on with especially just after a fight. You must create a positive to counter balance any negative and walking together is a great way to do that as it strengthens bonds. Only let them play on common grounds for example the garden? No one has an upper hand so less likely to escalate. 

Buy a pad of paper and after every scrap, growl or bite document the whole thing. What happened before? What was the situation? Who was in the room? Who was involved? What was it over? What happened after? Eventually you will begin to see patterns emerge which will give you a good idea of how Milton is thinking and the little things that triggers his aggression which you may not be picking up on. this will help you tackle it! It will also be beneficial if/when you call in a professional. 

I know you can do it! It can be done and you have made it this far :thumbup: good luck!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

No, I'm sorry but my original dogs would come first - not to mention my cats and any neighbours cats. I have lived for eight years with separating Kali from my little dogs, she does not like them and as a Mal that can be the case. Its not fair on any of the dogs to be shifted around, never having the freedom of the house but I had her from nine weeks old and she's very much a part of this family. I also have my back garden divided in two with a fence and gate, both sides quite large. 

One slip up recently when Kali was eating in the kitchen and the gate left open left little tiny Britches with head wounds, she innocently ran up to Kali and that's what she got for it. Considering Kali is 52kgs and Britches 10kgs I think we were lucky and showed Kali's aggression level is controllable, she stopped immediately we yelled at her. None the less we all feel the dogs have pretty crap lives and all for the sake of one! Shunted from place to place with no freedom which is worse in winter as we can't even have the kitchen and patio doors open so as they can at least run in their side of the garden. So it's Kali and Flynn (she likes him) in my through lounge and Marty, Bruce, Britches and Teebs in the kitchen and hall with access to their part of the garden and vice versa. Poor Flynn remains with his mother no doubt picking up her bad vibes towards the others which has made him dog reactive when all of his siblings aren't. He gets on okay with the others but if I segregated him from Kali she would have no dog interaction and that would possibly make her worse. 
We are all 'prisoners' in our own home and I have forgotten what it's like to just walk through doors without having to make sure the gate is firmy closed. I hate it, but I had this pup, thought I could 'train it out of her' and here nearly eight years on she's still the same. 

Even with just adults in this house the gates have been left ajar, we've had fights with Kali but never a vet trip needed - although she is more than capable of killing one of the little ones, especially over food like what happened with Britches. She is not 'out to kill' but she is possessive of anything she considers hers. 

If she had been a dog with an unknown background, an adult who showed real intent to harm, a rescue who I hadn't raised myself and practically knew inside out she would not be here now. The fact that she is sometimes saddens me for the others, none more than Britches who now has Cushings disease and struggles with her life at times and lost the freedom she once knew before Kali arrived. 

There is so much more to consider when deciding to keep an aggressive dog, accidents will happen they even did with Sid and Deisel yet there were no kids in that house. Add children to the mix and you're walking in a potential minefield. 

I guarantee fights will happen again, it's just a case of when and who cops it next. Hopefully it won't involve a child whom you must love more than any dog and IMO should prioritise!

Sorry for the lecture but six other people who I've asked (not forum members) are horrified at the risk you are taking, let alone what happened to your cat and likely any neighbours cats that wander into your garden, no matter how rare.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2012)

When I make an important decision, I base it on thorough research, knowledge, experience, and much thought. I trust I am not the only one capable of making intelligent decisions even when I don't necessarily agree with the decisions someone else might make.

There are many factors to consider when deciding if a dog is a good candidate for rehabilitation. The dog has to be thoroughly evaluated, the knowledge and experience of the owners is a factor, the dog's environment is a factor, the presence of children and other pets and the capability for management, etc., etc. 

Whether or not the dog is a rescue has no bearing whatsoever, and as someone active in rescue with rehabilitated rescues of our own, that sort of attitude is very sad to me. 

MLB, I for one am interested on updates, I hope you keep the forum posted.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

well, good luck to you (and your poor other pets). I hope you can train him to behave although TBH I would be very doubtful...esp given that he was bred for dog fighting!
Its not a risk I could take.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> well, good luck to you (and your poor other pets). I hope you can train him to behave although TBH I would be very doubtful...*esp given that he was bred for dog fighting*!
> Its not a risk I could take.


Please, enough with the ignorant comments about dogs bred for X, Y, Z....

Just as a collie bred for herding doesn't necessarily breed everything that moves willy-nilly, a dog bred for fighting isn't necessarily going to fight anything that moves. Besides, you don't breed a dog to "fight", you breed for high prey drive and low tolerance. These are instincts that can be channeled, not a condemnation.

A good read is the book "The Lost Dogs" about the Michael Vick dogs and how they went from fighting in the pit to become loving family pets, some working as therapy dogs.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Very difficult situation to be in. Don't envy the OP.

All the best for you OP. Your compassion for this dog is evident by your intention to keep, manage and help him, even after what has happened. As has been said, many people would not be able to accept him in the same circumstances.

On a practical level, I hope all goes well. 
As has already been suggested I'm sure, will be worth investing if you haven't already done so in dog pens, stair gates and perhaps consider putting locks on doors or security clips/locks on stairgates or pen doors that will be used to separate him and the other dogs (as a 'belts and braces' measure so that visitors or youngsters don't leave doors or gates open and accidentally allow scraps to start or give him access to the cats).

Kongs and chews (raw bones, stag bars, hooves etc) will be useful to keep each party entertained and give them with a quiet, destressing, endorphin releasing activity.

As much as possible take time with 'work' him separately- teach him skills (impulse control) and work on desensitizing/conditioning him to be comfortable with a muzzle for his walks.

Teaching A Dog To Wear A Muzzle (Muzzle Training) - YouTube

Teaching a positive interrupter will also be useful so that you can interrupt any situation that could possibly be headed downhill (before it gets heated) and do so in such a way that doesn't stress him out or involve aversives. 
How to stop unwanted behavior- the positive interrupter- dog training clicker training - YouTube

Starting to work on games such as the foundation stages of chase recall training may also be particularly useful for self control and an important life skill (particularly if there is question over whether some aspects may possibly be related to predatory drift).
How do I stop my dog chasing?

As has been suggested already... buying a notebook for him with observations about his behaviour, triggers, what stresses him out, what motivates him... will all be useful to present to a behaviourist etc.

Again all the best and will be interested to hear updates.


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

ouesi said:


> Just as a collie bred for herding doesn't necessarily herd everything that moves willy-nilly, a dog bred for fighting isn't necessarily going to fight anything that moves.


true...it must greatly increase the likelyhood though. Or else why do people bother breeding gundogs/herding dogs/guarding dogs if they arent breeding them to have certain characteristics?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It's not a position I'd want to be in either but looking at threads:

Pups found wandering - 30/09/12
Owner decided didn't want Milton 
and decision to keep him by MLB - 25/10/12
Angel attacked - 05/12/12
Lucky killed - 17/12/13

And various other fights all in the space of LESS than two months! How old is Milton? I'm guessing by the puppy roaming thread not more than six/seven months old! If he has come from people breeding for fighting rings then I honestly don't believe all the training in the world will get it out of him. Also sceptical as to why it took the original owner a month to decide he didn't want Milton - why the gap?

Anyway I'm out of this thread now and hope things do work out, just can't see why the op posted this:

'Thanks everyone but sadly Lucky hasn't made it. He died on the operating table after only being there a few minutes. We have had problems with Milton attacking our other dogs recently involving a vet trip and he's due to be rehomed just after christmas but he was ok with the cats. I'm not sure if the other person is going to want Milton now. i'm stuck with what to do. I feekl I can't keep him even until after christmas now because of the other cats and dogs. I really don't know what to do about him. Hes currently crated but he cant stay crated all the time as that is just cruel.'

Yet now can't see the sense in those words.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Malmum said:


> It's not a position I'd want to be in either but looking at threads:
> 
> Pups found wandering - 30/09/12
> Owner decided didn't want Milton
> ...


If the timescales are right here and the incidents with Milton have been surfacing very recently (a sudden onset), it would probably be worth making sure he has a thorough medical examination and blood tests to test for any abnormalities. 
In cases of aggression with a sudden onset especially (but ongoing problems also) it is very worth ruling this out.

Ask the vet to do a full blood panel (including thyroid checks). If you have any doubts, I'd suggest contacting Dr Jean Dodds in the USA (especially regarding thyroid issues). Even only slightly sub-optimal results can have an affect on behaviour at times.

I have a dog with chronic health issues (Inflammatory Bowel Disease and B12 deficiency) and his condition can definitely have an affect on his behaviour (he is generally more on edge and fearful when his gut is bad and when his B12 is particularly low even more so). His condition is now being managed/treated but it was through tests with Dr Dodds and bloods at our practice vet that we were able to work it out.

Health issues are tricky. Often with really difficult cases, it's actually a relief to the owner to find out that there was something that was out of their control influencing the situation, which can, once identified be treated, which should help the situation.
It may well be that in Milton's case there is nothing there, but definitely worth checking IMO- anything you can rule out/sort if needed is going to be helpful in situations such as this one.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Please, enough with the ignorant comments about dogs bred for X, Y, Z....
> A good read is the book "The Lost Dogs" about the Michael Vick dogs and how they went from fighting in the pit to become loving family pets, some working as therapy dogs.


It's not just ignorance it still goes on over here - big time actually.
BBC NEWS | Programmes | Panorama | Dog-Fighting Undercover

I have seen ex fighting dogs rehabilitated by CM but then they are always good with people, have to be for handling, with other dogs though they can remain very unpredictable. I wouldn't question Milton intentionally attacking a child but kids get in the way sometimes in whatever we are doing - as many parents know!

It's a totally disgusting 'sport' and the people behind that programme were extremely brave, Just watching it was frightening - not only for the dogs but for the undercover reporter too. The remaining dogs were all taken away but it just starts again from scratch! Horrific and it goes on in England too!

Sorry - definitely out now but dislike ignorance being bliss!


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

Malmum said:


> Folk can 'de rep' me but had that been a situation I was in the dog would have been down the vets as soon as that deed was done.


Bit flabbergasted that you hint at or suggest PTS, when someone posts for advice on a public forum. 
Really not the place.

In cases of aggression, suggestions on a forum (should be, IMO):

Tips for management short term. 
Useful skills you can teach the dog (using positive reinforcement and kind, science based methods) that will help, especially short term in addition to above and help to avoid lots of stress and keep the dog mentally stimulated and as calm as possible. 
Recommended reading/useful articles around the theme.
Recommendation to call in the professionals.

*DO NO HARM*

There is lots of talk about the dog fighting in this thread I notice. 
I realize it is an emotive topic.

What I seriously question is how people can write this dog off, based on information received on a public forum. 
This a job for the professionals (a good, positive, well qualified, experienced behaviourist) who is experienced in dealing with such cases.

Wishing the OP all the best


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2012)

Malmum said:


> It's not just ignorance it still goes on over here - big time actually.
> BBC NEWS | Programmes | Panorama | Dog-Fighting Undercover


Do you think I'm denying that dog fighting exists? How on earth did you get that from me recommending a book about dogs rehabilitated from the fighting world??



Malmum said:


> I have seen ex fighting dogs rehabilitated by CM


Um... that's a TV show. And those aren't fighting dogs, and CM is not rehabilitating anything.



Malmum said:


> but then they are always good with people, have to be for handling, with other dogs though they can remain very unpredictable. I wouldn't question Milton intentionally attacking a child but kids get in the way sometimes in whatever we are doing - as many parents know!


Yes, children get in the way, hence my previous post about precautions to take. MLB doesn't want to rehome or euthanize Milton at this point. Guess what? That's not your decision, it's not my decision, its MLB's decision and even if one does not like it, one can give practical advice instead of potentially derailing her thread in to a rescue/bully breed bash fest.
Were Milton a greyhound who had killed a cat I wonder how this thread would have gone?



Malmum said:


> It's a totally disgusting 'sport' and the people behind that programme were extremely brave, Just watching it was frightening - not only for the dogs but for the undercover reporter too. The remaining dogs were all taken away but it just starts again from scratch! Horrific and it goes on in England too!
> 
> Sorry - definitely out now but dislike ignorance being bliss!


Again, where are you getting from my posts that I'm denying that dog fighting exists? 
In my neck of the woods you can routinely find abandoned dogs with half their face missing. My husband routinely arrests participants in dog fighting. My vet routinely patches up bait dogs and others. 
I am all too familiar with dog fighting, the dog who are subjected to it and their potential for rehabilitation. Certainly more familiar than someone who has watched a few TV shows LOL!


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Malmum said:


> OMG - I can't believe he has killed one of your cats and you are still keeping him! Goodness that poor cat, what a terrible thing to happen.


To echo *Malmum *.. I am flabbergasted too!

Especially when ...



Malmum said:


> It's not a position I'd want to be in either but looking at threads:
> 
> 'Thanks everyone but sadly Lucky hasn't made it. He died on the operating table after only being there a few minutes. We have had problems with Milton attacking our other dogs recently involving a vet trip and he's due to be rehomed just after christmas but he was ok with the cats.





MLB said:


> I had a feeling this would be the reaction and tbh I think if someone came on here and said this I'd be saying the same as you but it's so much harder when it is actually your pet that has a problem and not someone elses.


You have other cats!

OMG I'm sorry but how on earth can you even contemplate keeping him when he's already killed one of your cats and you have others ... and that's without the aggression towards the other dogs 

I applaud you on not wanting to give up on him *but * surely there has to be a line?

If it's likely that he's sadly come from dogs bred for aggression then it's highly unlikely you'll be able to "cure" him of it .....

Has he had a full health check at the vets? There is the possibility there's a medical reason for it

As *Malmum *says having to live with separate animals is *very* stressful and requires a huge amount of commitment - in my case, it was with the cats .. they literally tried to kill each other (and anyone else that got in the way) if they met so it was a case of one in / one out, one going in / out the front door (with the other shut in the lounge) and the other in / out the back door (with the other shut in the hall) etc etc ... it is a nightmare & not fair on the other animals - or the humans either with hindsight


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I dont think most of us are suggesting PTS as the only option for this boy. It jst seems that if you have a dog who's trigger seems to be excitment then maybe a house with 4 other dogs, cats and small children is tempting fate abit too much.
Surely it would be better to continue looking for a new home for him that may be more suitable?? (Im not saying that this would be easy or likely to happen instantly but I would think it might be better for all concerned?).


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Sadly there is no other choice for dogs like Milton, ultimately he will be extremely difficult to home and likely to move shelter to shelter until he is pts. 

None of us know exactly what the situation is at home and I find it disgusting that people are recommending a dog they don't even know to be pts for reasons they have never even witnessed. 

Having suffered a loss would make me even more determined to get to grips with this dogs behaviour. Or it would have all been for nothing. 

As for dog shuffling - I have scooby (dog aggressive, can't be around male dogs or cats) Rossi (fine with dogs but can't be around cats or scooby) raven (fine with all dogs and cat) and pickles (my cat) that is 3 animals that have to be completely separated at all times... I'm living in a 2 bed house with 5 occupants... I'd love to sit here and tell how difficult and stressful it is but I can't... Because it isn't, I made this choice and I will reap the benefits of my situation instead of mulling over the fact that I have to play musical pets every morning! Not all the pets are mine btw before I get ridiculed for not treating my pets fairly or risking the life of my cat etc.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

Really feel for you OP. 
He is still only a pup himself really is he not? hope you can make it work x


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Surely it would be better to continue looking for a new home for him that may be more suitable?? (Im not saying that this would be easy or likely to happen instantly but I would think it might be better for all concerned?).


Even if the word is put out there to rehome him, it will ages if ever for it to happen. MLB would still need to get to grips with Miltons behaviour in the mean time so nothing would really change in terms of giving advice on what to do now.


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## Ang2 (Jun 15, 2012)

sezeelson said:


> Sadly there is no other choice for dogs like Milton, ultimately he will be extremely difficult to home and likely to move shelter to shelter until he is pts.
> 
> None of us know exactly what the situation is at home and I find it disgusting that people are recommending a dog they don't even know to be pts for reasons they have never even witnessed.
> 
> ...


Why dont you have him? Youre clearly an expert in shuffling the animals around, living on the edge, and hoping your cat doesnt get killed in the process!


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

Ang2 said:


> Why dont you have him? Youre clearly an expert in shuffling the animals around, living on the edge, and hoping your cat doesnt get killed in the process!


having lots of pets under one roof really living on the edge? Not sure of your reasoning there?

But I would love to take him on and if I was the only person making that decision I would offer him a place here without a doubt! Love nothing more then a challenge thanks 

I don't hope my cat doesn't get killed, I know he is not going to get killed...


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Ang2 said:


> Why dont you have him? Youre clearly an expert in shuffling the animals around, living on the edge, and hoping your cat doesnt get killed in the process!


Good point but there's always an 'excuse' as to why the advisor can't take it on! I personally wouldn't because my existing pets are far too precious and that's being honest. Having read the posts about him I think I can sort of tell what he's like!


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Good point but there's always an 'excuse' as to why the advisor can't take it on!




sezeelson didn't make any excuses? Even offered to take Milton.
MLB doesn't want to give Milton up.

Where are the excuses?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I think it's very, very easy to tell someone else to rehome their pet or put their pet to sleep but it's another matter entirely when it's your own much loved pet. Malmum, you haven't rehomed or pts Kali despite her problems, I don't think, despite the stress and how much you hate living in a divided household, that you'd even consider it would you? Why should others feel any differently?

I don't think it's a particularly good situation for the OP, several dogs, cats, small children and a dog whose trigger seems to be excitement, but it's not my decision to make. My advice would be to get a behaviourist in and see what they think can be done, whether the situation can be managed and worked with or whether rehoming is the only real option.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2012)

Please don't argue He ain't all bad ya know.

Infact the last two days he has been very good and has been showing a calm nature and hasn't tried to start any fights. As soon as he even gets a little excited I put him in the crate to calm down and once he is calm again he comes out to join the rest of us.

Angel as most of you know is only a little older than Milton and since Milton has been shower a calmer nature have noticed how Angel is in fact trying to get him to play and he has simply walked away from her. He didn't do this before so I think we already starting to make some progress. We are working on the other dogs to keep calm as well.

Holly and Chaos are both calm dogs anyway and Shadow only gets excited when the doorbell rings. We are trying our best to control his excitement barking as this is another trigger for Milton (not so much the door bell going but Shadows barking)

There is no chance he would get a neighbours cat as I now take milton outside on a longline and most of our neighbours all have dogs. There doesn't seem to be many cats in our area at all.

As for our cats, Sam has Never come down stairs. He doesn't like the hustle and bustle of the household and prefers to lounge around upstairs as do Raven (these two are like Velcro cats, always together.) Tabitha is quite shy and will only come downstairs when the house is quiet in the evenings, the dogs are resting and Milton is sleeping in his crate. She won't come down any other time. The cats prefer being upstairs where it's quieter, lounging on beds and chasing each other on the landing and climbing their cat trees. They are perfectly happy and safe and still gets lots of attention by all the family. I have a very tall homemade gate for the stairs that none of the dogs can get over.

I don't know if this is going to work out but I am going to try my best. I hve an appointment on Friday to have chat with my vet and to get some bloods done and we will go from there. I know it ain't going to be easy but I keep thinking if its only excitement that starts him off (and i'm pretty sure thats the only thing) and he is roughly only 8 moths old then isn't he just starting the Kevins? Mabe just mabe after this 'difficult stage) that alot of pups go through he may calm down alot more. He has also been neutered recently and I know it ain't always the case but Can have a calming effect and also Angel will be getting spayed at the end of the month. All these things may possibly be the cause of his agression. Who knows but I want to give him a chance first and if that's so wrong, then I'm a bad person.

Here is my really nasty dog that can't be trusted.
















































This last picture was only take the other day and this is what they are like most of the time. They are not left unspervised when led together like this or at any other time now.


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## sezeelson (Jul 5, 2011)

He is lovely!! :thumbup: well done you! Sounds like Milton is making great progress!

The first few months are always difficult as it can take a long time for a dog to truly settle down, especially if that dog is unstable or had a very rocky start to life! I know mine took 3 months to settle in, took this long before I could stroke his tummy or approach him when he had no where to run away without him stiffening up or attacking me. 

Things are definitely going in the right direction and for a dog who cannot control his excitement to back away from a playful invitation is a big step. Being only 8 months old he has still yet to mature  

Never disregard a day care or pet sitting service if you just need a day to relax


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Ang2 said:


> Why dont you have him? Youre clearly an expert in shuffling the animals around, living on the edge, and hoping your cat doesnt get killed in the process!





Malmum said:


> Good point but there's always an 'excuse' as to why the advisor can't take it on! I personally wouldn't because my existing pets are far too precious and that's being honest. Having read the posts about him I think I can sort of tell what he's like!


Seriously? Do you think these decisions MLB has had to make are easy?? She has lost a much loved cat & is doing her best to manage a dog that's had a rotten start in life. This is a living being here, who didn't ask to be born, didn't ask to be the 'type' he is & who is still little more than a baby himself. Shame on you for belittling her choices & trying to make her feel guilty 
Malmum, don't you already have to shuffle your dogs about yourself? I'd have thought you'd be a bit more supportive 

MLB I sincerely hope it works for you, we have a house with dogs, cats & house rabbits who regularly interact (under supervision) & at night everyone is separated for my peace of mind so it is doable. Best of luck xxxx


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## thorex (Sep 19, 2012)

I have to say I am so proud of you for trying every possible way to help Milton, yes he had made a big mistake, but who doesn't make mistakes.
I've been reading the replies and I can't believe some of you recommended to put Milton to sleep,:mad2:, eveyone deserves a second chance
As some of you know I foster dogs,one of mine, Baby Junior was an monster that knowbody wanted and still I fostered him with his horrible food aggression, fear aggression and no social skills what so ever.
Baby Junior was really hard work, for nearly 9 months I wasn't sure about him,even scared of him biting me, which he tried numerous times. but I didn't give up and now he is mummys boys, I adore him.
He can be unpredictable with people or dogs he doesn't know, but we have been told this is due to been a GSD x Czechoslovakian wolfdog, he needs a little space for the first 5 min, saying that he is the best foster brother there is,after a carefull introduction.
He got this sixth sense and knows when another dog is in need and wont leave their side.
To some, he should be pts because he is not perfect, to me, I would never give up on him even if I have to spend the rest of my live having to keep an eye...
*To the ones that don't believe in second chances*
:confused1::confused1: how would you feel if you need help because you have a problem and everyone gives up on you:confused1::confused1:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Shame on Malmum for what? 
Putting the welfare of three children above and beyond that of an unpredictable dog! 
One that at the tender age of just eight months has already caused such carnage in such a short space of time!
One that has now been castrated far too young and while still in that stage of instability!
One that when he reaches adolescence will likely become even more unpredictable!

The last sentence in the opening post is all I need to know I feel no shame in suggesting the dog is better elsewhere but then who will take him - no one - shame on them too perhaps for not wanting to take on that responsibility! One person who 'would' cannot because the decision is not hers - obviously some sense there somewhere!
Dogs are assessed for a reason and many are not to be re homed with children under the age of 10 - 13 years - there's a reason for that!

MLB's house is likely a very busy household, busy means not always under complete control - children get excited and so they should, it's called enjoying childhood. Excitement starts Milton off, so the children will have to be 'watched' as well as the dogs/cats. Lovely life for all eh?

If people could be bothered to read post 33 they would see what Kali is like and know that in eight years I have had no major fights with her, no vet trips and no humans bitten - hence my quote 'potential minefield' with children in the mix! Eight years versus eight weeks - no comparison!

I know this is a dog forum but am disgusted at the lack of concern for the welfare and safety of the three children in the house. I love dogs but would never, ever put a child in a situation that could *possibly* endanger them - a child should always come first, above and beyond any animal!

It nearly happened once but am relieved to see that with your crystal balls it won't nearly or actually happen again. After all to some perhaps a child is replaceable where a dog is not - shame on you too!!!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Closing this one for tonight, trying to spend some family time and I am not even going to apologise for not going through it now


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