# Puppy's biting getting aggressive



## car1y (Nov 1, 2015)

I've recently taken on a second dog given to me by a family member. He is a 9 week old German shepherd X belgian malinois. He is very sociable with other dogs, but he's starting to show some aggression towards me. He's constantly attacking my legs and trousers, which I know is probably his herding instinct, but when I try to correct him, he's coming back at me biting to the point where I'm bruised and bleeding. He also does this when I try to stop him tearing my carpet to pieces. I'm not an inexperienced dog owner ( although I've never had this breed), I've grown up with dogs and worked with them as a teenager, but I haven't come across this high level of aggression before in a dog so young. I understand that he's naturally going to be trying to find his place in the pecking order, but how can I stop him taking over and turning into an aggressive adult if he doesn't respond to any sort of discipline? I never hit him as I don't want to wind him up even more. I've tried 'yelping' which worked the first couple of times but now he doesn't even flinch. I've tried the 'muzzle wrap' which I've read alot about from german shepherd owners, that doesn't stop him. I've put pennies in a tin to try noice distraction, that doesn't work. I try swapping for toys, but he's not interested, he just wants to attack me. Time outs do nothing, as soon as I let him back in the room, he's biting again. I know people will say this is normal puppy behaviour, but I really feel like he's being aggressive. If it was just mouthing and nipping, I wouldn't be so worried, but it's just the way he's full on attacking me when I'm trying to discipline him, and coming back for more until I shut him away that's making me uneasy. He's a very strong character, and he's going to grow into a big dog. I have a young daughter and I'm scared he's going to do some damage if I can't find a way to correct him. I'm getting alot of pressure from my family telling me to rehome him as they've seen the way he reacts when you try to stop him doing something, just this evening he bit my mum so hard she was bleeding because she told him to stop biting her legs. I don't want to give up on him, but im struggling to be his 'pack leader'.


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## Guest (Nov 1, 2015)

It does sound like you're in over your head a bit. 
Where are you located? There are some great members on here who might be able to direct you to a qualified, skilled trainer to help you.

In the meantime, forget about correcting him or being pack leader and start teaching him behaviors (sit, down, spin, etc.) and then have everything he wants be contingent on offering a desired behavior, not an undesired one. Look up impulse control too. 

The biting does suck for sure. Figure out what toys he likes, maybe look in to a flirt pole, as it sounds like he wants to get things that move. But also you're going to have to up your management. He might even need a house line on a harness to help control him when he gets crazy.


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## car1y (Nov 1, 2015)

I'm located in Essex, there is a training class near my house, ill look into getting him booked in. 
I am trying to teach him behaviours, he knows 'sit' and 'come', he's very intelligent and does seem to like training, maybe I just need to be more consistent with it. I've looked up the flirt pole, I'd never heard of it, but I think he'd really like a toy like that, and the same with the impulse control, maybe I'm not as experienced as I thought! 
Thank you for your advice, I will definitely take on board, and hopefully be able to reign him in a bit!


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

You have tried alot in a short space of time. Hes 9 weeks old, its gonna take weeks to stop the biting not days. 
Don't muzzle wrap him or use loud noises as you are likely to scare him and make the biting worse. I would still be using the toy to pop in his mouth and if he still getting too much a time out in another room as over tired pups makes bitey ones. You can do that while looking for a trainer to help you to channel his herding into more useful areas of life rather then your feet.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

I wonder if you are over stimulating your puppy? Puppies bite when over excited, they can't help it, it is instinct. Being the "pack leader" or telling the puppy off will do nothing to neutralize that instinct. When your puppy starts biting, let him outside in the garden to explore and move around, stand around quietly until he calms himself, chances are he won't jump up and bite at your trouser legs because he can let out his energy naturally with a stick or a leaf to prey on and he will learn to calm himself. If you have kids don't let them run around screaming in the presence of the puppy.

When my dog was a puppy, I spend a good part of the day just hanging outside in the garden, sitting or standing around while he explored, I didn't have to teach him not to bite, he learned himself when, why, how and what was appropriate to bite himself because he was in a calm state.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

car1y said:


> I'm located in Essex, there is a training class near my house, ill look into getting him booked in.
> I am trying to teach him behaviours, he knows 'sit' and 'come', he's very intelligent and does seem to like training, maybe I just need to be more consistent with it. I've looked up the flirt pole, I'd never heard of it, but I think he'd really like a toy like that, and the same with the impulse control, maybe I'm not as experienced as I thought!
> Thank you for your advice, I will definitely take on board, and hopefully be able to reign him in a bit!


@smokeybear @Jenny Olley or @Twiggy might be able to direct you to some good trainers in your area


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## car1y (Nov 1, 2015)

Amelia66 said:


> You have tried alot in a short space of time. Hes 9 weeks old, its gonna take weeks to stop the biting not days.
> Don't muzzle wrap him or use loud noises as you are likely to scare him and make the biting worse. I would still be using the toy to pop in his mouth and if he still getting too much a time out in another room as over tired pups makes bitey ones. You can do that while looking for a trainer to help you to channel his herding into more useful areas of life rather then your feet.


Yes I agree I've tried alot in a short space, I think I've just panicked when he stops reacting to one way, so I've gone on to something else. I've been trying the toy swap again this morning, and I'll stick to that and see how he goes


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## car1y (Nov 1, 2015)

Mesotes said:


> I wonder if you are over stimulating your puppy? Puppies bite when over excited, they can't help it, it is instinct. Being the "pack leader" or telling the puppy off will do nothing to neutralize that instinct. When your puppy starts biting, let him outside in the garden to explore and move around, stand around quietly until he calms himself, chances are he won't jump up and bite at your trouser legs because he can let out his energy naturally with a stick or a leaf to prey on and he will learn to calm himself. If you have kids don't let them run around screaming in the presence of the puppy.
> 
> When my dog was a puppy, I spend a good part of the day just hanging outside in the garden, sitting or standing around while he explored, I didn't have to teach him not to bite, he learned himself when, why, how and what was appropriate to bite himself because he was in a calm state.


I don't think I'm over stimulating him when he's having these little outbursts, when he mouths and bites during play I don't worry because I know he's excited. It's the angry bites when I stop him doing something that are the problem. I will try going outside with him when he's getting like that and hopefully it will work!


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Whereabouts in Essex, the place is full of trainers, not all of whom I would recommend.................


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## car1y (Nov 1, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Whereabouts in Essex, the place is full of trainers, not all of whom I would recommend.................


I live in Basildon... should I be avoiding certain people? Haha


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Try Karen Backhouse at Guiding Paws.


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## car1y (Nov 1, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Try Karen Backhouse at Guiding Paws.


I've just had a look at her website, she's over 2 hours away from where I live, that's way too far for me to go. Thank you for your recommendation though


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Or you could try Pets In Partnership (http://www.petsinpartnership.co.uk/) I attend a monthly training class which is hosted by them & Rebecca (the owner) attends.


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

car1y said:


> I've just had a look at her website, she's over 2 hours away from where I live, that's way too far for me to go. Thank you for your recommendation though


Both Elm Park Dog Training Club and Thurrock Dog Training Club are close to you. Both clubs have very experienced members, especially training working dogs. Have a look at their websites.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Billericay Dog Training School is in Noak Bridge Basildon.

I would suggest going along and asking to watch a class and see what you think for yourself.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Mesotes said:


> I wonder if you are over stimulating your puppy? Puppies bite when over excited, they can't help it, it is instinct. Being the "pack leader" or telling the puppy off will do nothing to neutralize that instinct. When your puppy starts biting, let him outside in the garden to explore and move around, stand around quietly until he calms himself, chances are he won't jump up and bite at your trouser legs because he can let out his energy naturally with a stick or a leaf to prey on and he will learn to calm himself. If you have kids don't let them run around screaming in the presence of the puppy.
> 
> When my dog was a puppy, I spend a good part of the day just hanging outside in the garden, sitting or standing around while he explored, I didn't have to teach him not to bite, he learned himself when, why, how and what was appropriate to bite himself because he was in a calm state.


The pup is a GSDXMalinois. 
Both are vey handler oriented (obsessed) breeds AKA creepy stalker dogs. 
In puppyhood this translates in to leaping at you, biting you, and trying in every way possible to connect with their person, that the connection involves teeth is incidental. 
It takes more than being calm and standing still to get them off you (even if one could stay still and calm with a determined furry piranha attacking them with needle sharp teeth), and honestly, you really don't want them "off" you, you just want to direct it in a more productive and less painful way.

@car1y did you have any particular plans with this dog?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> The pup is a GSDXMalinois.
> Both are vey handler oriented (obsessed) breeds AKA creepy stalker dogs.
> *In puppyhood this translates in to leaping at you, biting you, and trying in every way possible to connect with their person*, that the connection involves teeth is incidental.
> It takes more than being calm and standing still to get them off you (even if one could stay still and calm with a determined furry piranha attacking them with needle sharp teeth), and honestly, you really don't want them "off" you, you just want to direct it in a more productive and less painful way.
> ...


This was (is!) Archer exactly. There is no way I could stand quietly as it bloody hurt. I admit I did get angry a couple of times & pushed him away (hard!) ...he thought this was a fab game & then used to do it even more!


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Cleo38 said:


> This was (is!) Archer exactly. There is no way I could stand quietly as it bloody hurt. I admit I did get angry a couple of times & pushed him away (hard!) ...he thought this was a fab game & then used to do it even more!


Bates is 7 and still a threat to my personal health and safety sometimes  And he's not even remotely on the same level as a malinois!
But I'm fairly sure if the OP stood out in the yard and waited for the dog to entertain himself, they would end up muddied or bloodied or both


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

ouesi said:


> The pup is a GSDXMalinois.
> Both are vey handler oriented (obsessed) breeds AKA creepy stalker dogs.
> In puppyhood this translates in to leaping at you, biting you, and trying in every way possible to connect with their person, that the connection involves teeth is incidental.
> It takes more than being calm and standing still to get them off you (even if one could stay still and calm with a determined furry piranha attacking them with needle sharp teeth), and honestly, you really don't want them "off" you, you just want to direct it in a more productive and less painful way.
> ...


I don't think you are quite getting what I am saying, about standing still when a puppy is biting, the point is you don't want to let it get to that point, when I puppy is attacking like a furry piranha then that puppy is already in overload, it's way over stimulated, redirecting with a toy isn't the answer, the answer is to teach him to self-calm so it doesn't get that far in the first place. If he has been in his crate for a couple of hours when the kids get home from school or you get in, don't let the kids be all over him, the first thing you do is let him shoot out the back door and let him get some energy out, follow and stand around calmly let him move around and find sticks to bite, move slowly around him until he has calmed himself and then pet and love on him when he is a calm space so he doesn't get all worked up into an emotional frenzy.

Doesn't make one ounce of difference what breed/s the puppy is, you still don't want to over-stimulate the puppy, and allowing the puppy to bite and jump all over you equals too much energy and no flow. The biting is not incidental, a puppy bites because he wants something and is aroused, ie by kids running, or his owner arriving at the door, his mind says I want this and he actually feels it is in his jaws and he bites because his inner computer says bite, it is how his neurological system is wired.

An overstimulated puppy is going to resort to instincts, and once this happens you are going to have to teach him to be social by correcting these instincts, this is remedial work and much harder to achieve. This short circuit then becomes the basis for the personality the dog develops, in most cases this is not aggressive, but it seems like the OP's dog is heading into aggressive behavior.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Bates is 7 and still a threat to my personal health and safety sometimes  And he's not even remotely on the same level as a malinois!
> But I'm fairly sure if the OP stood out in the yard and waited for the dog to entertain himself, they would end up muddied or bloodied or both


Still not getting it! Sounds like your Great Dane hasn't been taught to self-calm either. How many well-adjusted Malinois are attacking their owners while hanging out in the garden I wonder. :Angelic


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Twiggy said:


> Both Elm Park Dog Training Club and Thurrock Dog Training Club are close to you. Both clubs have very experienced members, especially training working dogs. Have a look at their websites.


Meant to add I have contact numbers/emails for both clubs if you're interested.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

car1y said:


> I live in Basildon... should I be avoiding certain people? Haha


OT but "hi" to you in Basildon, I was born and brought up in Leigh-on-Sea! My Mum, uncles and a couple of cousins still live there. My niece works at Basildon hospital.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Mesotes said:


> Still not getting it! Sounds like your Great Dane hasn't been taught to self-calm either. How many well-adjusted Malinois are attacking their owners while hanging out in the garden I wonder. :Angelic


Bates is not a Great Dane. 
Please don't presume to tell me what I do and do not understand or what my dog has or has not be taught how to do. 
This dog has multiple obedience titles, participates successfuly in multiple dog sports, has done acting jobs, and is therapy dog certified among many other accomplishments. 
He is a very pushy, in-your-face handler oriented dog who wants nothing more than to connect with me, and when I put him in work mode I have to be on my toes and paying attention, and even when paying attention I sometimes end up bloodied and bruised. It's part of owning this type of dog. Breed (or in this case temperament) does matter.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Bates is not a Great Dane.
> Please don't presume to tell me what I do and do not understand or what my dog has or has not be taught how to do.
> This dog has multiple obedience titles, participates successfuly in multiple dog sports, has done acting jobs, and is therapy dog certified among many other accomplishments.
> He is a very pushy, in-your-face handler oriented dog who wants nothing more than to connect with me, and when I put him in work mode I have to be on my toes and paying attention, and even when paying attention I sometimes end up bloodied and bruised. It's part of owning this type of dog. Breed (or in this case temperament) does matter.


Sounds like a accomplished dog. Do you mean Temperament or temperament? Two different things. But that is beside the point, and being a Malinois is not excuse to have an over-stimulated puppy that bites out of instinct. They are more than capable of self-regulation, police dogs do, they apprehend the perp and then happily get into the police car, no hard feelings to the guy they just held onto for dear life, or at least they should be able to, otherwise they are a liability.

Are you dealing with owner addiction with him?


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Hmmm personally I think breed/temperament does make a difference.

As far as police and military dogs are concerned very many don't "happily get into the police car with no hard feelings" well not in my experience.

The working bred Malinois is a very strong and powerful dog and even in very experienced hands can take a bit of controlling.

Yes there is an 'off switch' in working dogs but with many it can be a hell of a job to find.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Mesotes said:


> Sounds like a accomplished dog. Do you mean Temperament or temperament? Two different things. But that is beside the point, and being a Malinois is not excuse to have an over-stimulated puppy that bites out of instinct. They are more than capable of self-regulation, police dogs do, they apprehend the perp and then happily get into the police car, no hard feelings to the guy they just held onto for dear life, or at least they should be able to, otherwise they are a liability.
> 
> Are you dealing with owner addiction with him?


No LOL, I am not dealing with owner addiction with my dog, whatever that means. 

Malinois puppies are hard work. I take it you are not familiar with dogs like this?
Of course you teach impulse control (as I have already suggested to the OP), but at 9 weeks there is only so much the puppy is developmentally capable of.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Mesotes said:


> Still not getting it! Sounds like your Great Dane hasn't been taught to self-calm either. How many well-adjusted Malinois are attacking their owners while hanging out in the garden I wonder. :Angelic


According to all the stuff on Facebook recently that's pretty much exactly what Malinois do... Seriously, pics of gaping wounds, broken limbs, massive bruising etc and "this is what to expect when you own a Malinois".


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Twiggy said:


> Hmmm personally I think breed/temperament does make a difference.
> 
> As far as police and military dogs are concerned very many don't "happily get into the police car with no hard feelings" well not in my experience.
> 
> ...


Then they have not been trained well enough.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> This was (is!) Archer exactly. There is no way I could stand quietly as it bloody hurt. I admit I did get angry a couple of times & pushed him away (hard!) ...he thought this was a fab game & then used to do it even more!


Exactly the same here. I'm ashamed to admit I still struggle with OTT mouthiness too, and when family visit it's even worse. Cash has left bruises and drawn blood in his over exuberance. He is much better with myself these days, but my god has it been a struggle!

Personally I've found it's just a case of perseverance combined with time-outs and redirection that gets the best results here. When family visit I try to stick a bottle in his mouth or something as he absolutely loves crunching down on this rather than other people's arms!


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

ouesi said:


> No LOL, I am not dealing with owner addiction with my dog, whatever that means.
> 
> Malinois puppies are hard work. I take it you are not familiar with dogs like this?
> Of course you teach impulse control (as I have already suggested to the OP), but at 9 weeks there is only so much the puppy is developmentally capable of.


I don't have time to discuss how best to achieve impulse control ATM, my dog needs to be taken out for a walk, but I will try and come back later although I have a ton of things to do.

The point is our friend from Basildon does not need a Schutzhund or a police dog, she needs the "best dog on the block", so that means a calm dog that knows how to get in the flow.

ETA: no experience with Malinois, but GSD. Best behaved calm dog evah.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mesotes said:


> Then they have not been trained well enough.


How many Belgian Malinois have you trained?

I've trained a Belgian Groenendael and I know how she behaved, but I was just wondering about your experience with Malinois?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mesotes said:


> Sounds like a accomplished dog. Do you mean Temperament or temperament? Two different things. But that is beside the point, and being a Malinois is not excuse to have an over-stimulated puppy that bites out of instinct. They are more than capable of self-regulation, police dogs do, they apprehend the perp and then happily get into the police car, no hard feelings to the guy they just held onto for dear life, or at least they should be able to, otherwise they are a liability.
> 
> Are you dealing with owner addiction with him?


I don't believe pups are capable of "self-regulation", it has to be taught or acquired.

You can't make statements that apply to all breeds. Do you really believe there is no difference between a Malinois and, say, a Cavalier?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

What's the difference between Temperament and temperament? Apart from a capital letter at the beginning that is.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> What's the difference between Temperament and temperament? Apart from a capital letter at the beginning that is.


I did wonder myself? And felt that I must be missing something very obvious maybe


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> What's the difference between Temperament and temperament? Apart from a capital letter at the beginning that is.


I was wondering that myself.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Mesotes said:


> I don't have time to discuss how best to achieve impulse control ATM, my dog needs to be taken out for a walk, but I will try and come back later although I have a ton of things to do.
> 
> The point is our friend from Basildon does not need a Schutzhund or a police dog, she needs the "best dog on the block", so that means a calm dog that knows how to get in the flow.
> 
> ETA: no experience with Malinois, but GSD. Best behaved calm dog evah.


I don't need help teaching impulse control thank you. Though I do highly recommend Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed" and of course Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD is fantastic as well. I think Denise Fenzi also has some good stuff on impulse control on her blog. 
It's not complicated to teach, it just takes time and lots of practice. And of course the dog has to be developmentally ready. At 9 weeks, it's just not there at all. You can lay the foundation, but puppies and impulsive puppy stupids go hand in hand.

Schutzhund is now referred to as IPO, and plenty of IPO dogs are perfectly calm and know how to go with the flow as evidenced by the number of them who are also therapy dogs and happily living life as pet dogs in homes when not working.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> What's the difference between Temperament and temperament? Apart from a capital letter at the beginning that is.


I'm actually scared to ask 

All I know is that the last time a pet dog trainer worked with Bates, I warned her he was getting frustrated and that she might want to stand up (instead of kneeling like she was) she didn't believe me and nearly got her nose broken by my dog muzzle punching her in the face. I did warn her though... Don't open that door unless you know what to do with what's behind it.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

@ouesi I didn't say you needed help teaching impulse control, I said we could discuss it if it is of interest to you. IPO/Schutzhund whatevah, I am sure they are calm dogs, but the OP isn't looking for that kind of training, afaik.
@Sarah1983 I would be happy to explain the difference, and we can add personality into the mix too, but I am just got back from our walk and have to make hubby lunch then go out and run some errands and then Crossfit with my son, I will try and get back to discuss this later if I can.
@Sweety dogs are the most social creatures on the planet, that is why they are able to live with us, they can understand impulse control they are the only species that doesn't rely on instinct but go by feel.

I feel like the popular group is ganging up on me again .


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mesotes said:


> @ouesi I didn't say you needed help teaching impulse control, I said we could discuss it if it is of interest to you. IPO/Schutzhund whatevah, I am sure they are calm dogs, but the OP isn't looking for that kind of training, afaik.
> @Sarah1983 I would be happy to explain the difference, and we can add personality into the mix too, but I am just got back from our walk and have to make hubby lunch then go out and run some errands and then Crossfit with my son, I will try and get back to discuss this later if I can.
> @Sweety dogs are the most social creatures on the planet, that is why they are able to live with us, they can understand impulse control they are the only species that doesn't rely on instinct but go by feel.
> 
> I feel like the popular group is ganging up on me again .


I didn't say that dogs can't understand impulse control.

I said it doesn't come naturally to puppies.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Dogloverlou said:


> Exactly the same here. I'm ashamed to admit I still struggle with OTT mouthiness too, and when family visit it's even worse. Cash has left bruises and drawn blood in his over exuberance. He is much better with myself these days, but my god has it been a struggle!
> 
> Personally I've found it's just a case of perseverance combined with time-outs and redirection that gets the best results here. When family visit I try to stick a bottle in his mouth or something as he absolutely loves crunching down on this rather than other people's arms!


I used to be sitting in meetings at work with people commenting on my bleeding hands & bruises on my arms! It was perserverance ultimately. I had two lessons with him teaching him how to take treats nicely & they were very painful lessons but he learnt & now takes food nicely. He was just so excited that he was too full on. He loves being 100mph & is learning that quiet & calm can equally earn lots of fun


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Mesotes said:


> they are the only species that doesn't rely on instinct but go by feel.


Can you explain what you mean by this please?

No one is ganging up on you, you are making some pretty interesting statements and people are curious.


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

Sweety said:


> I didn't say that dogs can't understand impulse control.
> 
> I said it doesn't come naturally to puppies.


Yes, it does, they are feeling social animals by nature, they need impeccable impulse control for the "hunt".


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## Mesotes (Aug 21, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Can you explain what you mean by this please?
> 
> No one is ganging up on you, you are making some pretty interesting statements and people are curious.


Fine, but it feels like ganging up. I really shouldn't be doing this, hubby is hungry and I have tons to do. I will try and cover all this later, if not tomorrow when I have plenty of free time.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Cleo38 said:


> I used to be sitting in meetings at work with people commenting on my bleeding hands & bruises on my arms! It was perserverance ultimately. I had two lessons with him teaching him how to take treats nicely & they were very painful lessons but he learnt & now takes food nicely. He was just so excited that he was too full on. He loves being 100mph & is learning that quiet & calm can equally earn lots of fun


Did you read that blog post, or maybe it was a FB post about the trainer - I want to say Denise Fenzi but it might have been someone else talking about going for her yearly visit to the gynecologist and that the day before she had been doing a tug session with one of her dogs so her stomach and legs were all battered and bruised? It was written so hilariously, I've got to try and find it, your post reminded me of it


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

car1y said:


> I've recently taken on a second dog given to me by a family member. He is a 9 week old German shepherd X belgian malinois. He is very sociable with other dogs, but he's starting to show some aggression towards me. He's constantly attacking my legs and trousers, which I know is probably his herding instinct, but when I try to correct him, he's coming back at me biting to the point where I'm bruised and bleeding. He also does this when I try to stop him tearing my carpet to pieces. I'm not an inexperienced dog owner ( although I've never had this breed), I've grown up with dogs and worked with them as a teenager, but I haven't come across this high level of aggression before in a dog so young. I understand that he's naturally going to be trying to find his place in the pecking order, but how can I stop him taking over and turning into an aggressive adult if he doesn't respond to any sort of discipline? I never hit him as I don't want to wind him up even more. I've tried 'yelping' which worked the first couple of times but now he doesn't even flinch. I've tried the 'muzzle wrap' which I've read alot about from german shepherd owners, that doesn't stop him. I've put pennies in a tin to try noice distraction, that doesn't work. I try swapping for toys, but he's not interested, he just wants to attack me. Time outs do nothing, as soon as I let him back in the room, he's biting again. I know people will say this is normal puppy behaviour, but I really feel like he's being aggressive. If it was just mouthing and nipping, I wouldn't be so worried, but it's just the way he's full on attacking me when I'm trying to discipline him, and coming back for more until I shut him away that's making me uneasy. He's a very strong character, and he's going to grow into a big dog. I have a young daughter and I'm scared he's going to do some damage if I can't find a way to correct him. I'm getting alot of pressure from my family telling me to rehome him as they've seen the way he reacts when you try to stop him doing something, just this evening he bit my mum so hard she was bleeding because she told him to stop biting her legs. I don't want to give up on him, but im struggling to be his 'pack leader'.


I think you are over dogged and if you are out of your depth now it will only get worse.

TBH it does not sound as though you have the skills, knowledge, ability, training or experience for this type of dog and I would seriously consider offering him up to the police, the military or someone who wants to compete in Working Trials.

Being alive is often the only stimulation these dogs need and if not handled sensitively you could end up in trouble.

I did not read your initial post when I suggested a particular trainer, now that I have I would suggest that you get in touch with someone like Mike Woods at Essex Working Trials Society to give you some advice on this dog and the approach you need to take.

I have no idea why your family member did not keep him, but whatever the reason, I would get expert help soon.....................


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

OMG found it and it's cracking me up all over again 
http://denisefenzi.com/2011/11/09/dog-trainer-or-victim/


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Mesotes said:


> Yes, it does, they are feeling social animals by nature, they need impeccable impulse control for the "hunt".


What do you mean by the 'hunt'?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> OMG found it and it's cracking me up all over again
> http://denisefenzi.com/2011/11/09/dog-trainer-or-victim/


Hahahaha! That's it exactly!! People would look at my arms & hands (luckily they couldn't see the other brusises on my legs & stomach ... & the scratch marks where he used to leap at me when I was in the shower!!!) & I would tell them how much training I was doing .... & they would raise their eyebrows ... I would try & explain .... it never sounded good!

He used to have this awful habit of running up after me & leaping at my left shoulder .... nearly had me flat on my face several times ...

Oh & there was the over enthusiastic recall .... he turned round immediately he heard me call him, couldn't fault him on the response ... he ran as fast as he could to me ... only forgot to slow down & knocked me flying. I honestly thought he had broken my nose but no, just some blood, some bruising .... & a black eye!!!


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Cleo38 said:


> I would try & explain .... it never sounded good!


There is no believable way to explain the black eyes, busted lips, bitten boobs... Put the tug toy under your armpit they said, it will be fine they said... enguin


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> There is no believable way to explain the black eyes, busted lips, bitten boobs... Put the tug toy under your armpit they said, it will be fine they said... enguin


Oh I don't doubt I still have more to come ..... I wince at the thought of the pain that awaits me!

Seriously though, I am lucky in that I have a fantastic (IPO) training club nearby & am able to attend classes with other trainers who can advise on high drive dogs & impulse control exercises. It does make a difference to have such support & people who can offer advice. I've said before that although Archer is high drive, he is (in some ways) very easy to train (if not painful!) as he is so motivated by everything but it's just about knowing how to use that drive which is something I have learnt (&continue to do so) & has been invaluabe


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

ouesi said:


> OMG found it and it's cracking me up all over again
> http://denisefenzi.com/2011/11/09/dog-trainer-or-victim/


That's hilarious!

When he was just over a year old I took my boy to a gundog training weekend. It was all a bit much for him and he was massively overstimulated/frustrated and he expressed this by jumping and nipping at my thighs. At lunchtime I went to the bathroom and lowered my trousers to find tons of bruises all over. Just as well no doctors appointments were required! I was very glad he'd grown out of the behaviour when we went to this years annual gundog weekend - don't miss it one bit!


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2015)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh I don't doubt I still have more to come ..... I wince at the thought of the pain that awaits me!
> 
> Seriously though, I am lucky in that I have a fantastic (IPO) training club nearby & am able to attend classes with other trainers who can advise on high drive dogs & impulse control exercises. It does make a difference to have such support & people who can offer advice. I've said before that although Archer is high drive, he is (in some ways) very easy to train (if not painful!) as he is so motivated by everything but it's just about knowing how to use that drive which is something I have learnt (&continue to do so) & has been invaluabe


Absolutely. Having someone who is familiar with working a dog in drive is invaluable. I know it was for me.
Telling owners to keep their dogs under threshold is all well and good, but at some point we all end up with a dog who for whatever reason is over threshold, and when it's a "bite the one you're with" dog you really need to have practiced what to do, both the handler and the dog.

And honestly? It is fun to work a dog in drive and play around with where those threshholds are - painful, but definitely fun 
I


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## Twiggy (Jun 24, 2010)

Mesotes said:


> Then they have not been trained well enough.


If you say so. One is a world renown trainer, another has bred Malinois for about 40 years therefore I believe they know what they are dealing with.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2015)

For those of you asking what is temperament vs. Temperament, I have permission from @Mesotes to share what she PM'd me:

"Temperament (capital T) is the capacity in an animal to perceive the predatory aspect relative to the preyful aspect and hold both in the same frame of reference around a mid-point, ie, the emotional cognitive center, in order to perceive a being composed of the primordial traits of prey/predator. Without this, instincts, habits and the case of humans, thoughts end up running things."


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> For those of you asking what is temperament vs. Temperament, I have permission from @Mesotes to share what she PM'd me:
> 
> "Temperament (capital T) is the capacity in an animal to perceive the predatory aspect relative to the preyful aspect and hold both in the same frame of reference around a mid-point, ie, the emotional cognitive center, in order to perceive a being composed of the primordial traits of prey/predator. Without this, instincts, habits and the case of humans, thoughts end up running things."


Thank you but I still don't understand the difference


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

So. Mesotes advocates that the definition of Temperament, (capital T), is that a dog has to recognise a balance between being a Predator and being Prey?

Am I reading that right?

I hope I'm not, because it doesn't make a word of sense to me.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Thank you but I still don't understand the difference


I don't know if it's @Mesotes text or if she copied it off another website/trainer, I'm just sharing what was written to me. 
I asked permission to share on the thread because several members had asked about the whole temperament thing.

TBH, it sounds like whoever wrote that is trying to complicate something that is not that complicated.

My PITA dog's temperament = pushy, obnoxious, in-your-face, determined, driven dog who is not easily deterred. 
My mellower Great Dane's temperament = well... mellower. Tell her "no" she huffs and says "okay". Tell the other one "no" and he figures out a way around you and then gives you the finger as he's doing it.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2015)

Sweety said:


> Am I reading that right?
> .


IDK, you'd have to ask @Mesotes.

I asked permission to share it on the thread hoping she would also discuss it. 
I'm kind of reluctant to say much until/if/when she joins the conversation.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> For those of you asking what is temperament vs. Temperament, I have permission from @Mesotes to share what she PM'd me:
> 
> "Temperament (capital T) is the capacity in an animal to perceive the predatory aspect relative to the preyful aspect and hold both in the same frame of reference around a mid-point, ie, the emotional cognitive center, in order to perceive a being composed of the primordial traits of prey/predator. Without this, instincts, habits and the case of humans, thoughts end up running things."


And in your average laypersons terms this means what?


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> And in your average laypersons terms this means what?


Nothing...

No really, it's just a bunch of important sounding gibberish that does nothing but obfuscate a perfectly clear term that already has an understandable and agreed upon definition.

Generally when people make up convoluted definitions and explanations it's because they themselves don't understand. 
The process of coming to understand something first involves recognition, where you can look at something and say "that's ____", though you might not be able to say what that thing is, you can recognize it. True understanding comes when you can explain a concept in simple terms in an understandable way to someone with no familiarity with the concept.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> This was (is!) Archer exactly. There is no way I could stand quietly as it bloody hurt. I admit I did get angry a couple of times & pushed him away (hard!) ...he thought this was a fab game & then used to do it even more!


Zak was like this at 8 months when I got him. He would leap at me and mouth my arms - hard! I also got mad a couple of times and pushed him roughly away, which made him come back twice as hard (he thought it was great fun!)  The thing that worked best with him was redirecting his over-exuberant play on to a toy and I also upped his exercise and training. At 9 weeks there is only so much you can do in that department - so I would recommend lots of short, fun training and play sessions throughout the day and redirecting his mouthing of arms and legs to a toy. A flirt pole is a good idea.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Twiggy said:


> Hmmm personally I think breed/temperament does make a difference.
> 
> As far as police and military dogs are concerned very many don't "happily get into the police car with no hard feelings" well not in my experience.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

I think a well rounded, balanced working bred dog should have an off switch when not working, but a highly stressful and stimulating scenario (ie getting to bite the bad guy!) is likely to send even the most well adjusted working dog into a state of high excitement, so I do agree that there will be few who bite and then "happily get into the police car with no hard feelings" .

Malinois are also a different beast to a GSD - and a mix of both may well end up with the worst traits of both breeds.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Nothing...
> 
> No really, it's just a bunch of important sounding gibberish that does nothing but obfuscate a perfectly clear term that already has an understandable and agreed upon definition.
> 
> ...


Ah, the old baffle them with the jargon and hope they don't ask questions approach. I don't consider myself an idiot but the "explanation" of Temperament told me absolutely nothing at all. I don't have a clue what predatory aspect is or preyful one or how they're different or why they both need to be in the same frame of reference. So I'm still non the wiser as to what the difference between Temperament and temperament is.


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah, the old baffle them with the jargon and hope they don't ask questions approach. I don't consider myself an idiot but the "explanation" of Temperament told me absolutely nothing at all. I don't have a clue what predatory aspect is or preyful one or how they're different or why they both need to be in the same frame of reference. So I'm still non the wiser as to what the difference between Temperament and temperament is.


You're not the only one


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## Katherna (Feb 20, 2008)

ouesi said:


> All I know is that the last time a pet dog trainer worked with Bates, I warned her he was getting frustrated and that she might want to stand up (instead of kneeling like she was) she didn't believe me and nearly got her nose broken by my dog muzzle punching her in the face. I did warn her though... Don't open that door unless you know what to do with what's behind it.


Timmy muzzle punches, generally when he's really really pleased with himself, doing really well following the whistle commands he's learning. Apparently it looks like he's going to bite me according to a friend. A sucessful training session usually ends up with me having spit either on my leg or my glove/hand. He's from working stock like my previous collie and she used to do exactly the same thing.
Timmy was like a piranna (dunno how you spell it) at 9 weeks old, no-one was immune from those teeth. He gradually learnt and suddenly one day he'd stopped, although if he was overtired he'd start up again, but I knew he was overtired so could deal with it straight away.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
*to the OP:*
I'm a bit concerned this pup came "2ndhand" from a relative, & he's still only 9-WO.
How old was he, exactly, when he was taken from his dam & siblings?
.
What was his date of birth?
I ask both because pups learn BITE INHIBITION, a critical skill for their lives, via active play with their mum & littermates. Humans totally suck at teaching bite-inhibition [controlling the force of one's tooth contact] because we resort to smacks, grabbing the dog's face, scruffing, etc - while pups or dams yelp & walk off, cease play, ignore the pup who quickly apologizes to re-establish contact, etc.
When bitten, we humans become punitive & aversive - dogs, in strong contrast, give social feedback. 
.
.

When the bitey pup inhibits their bites to be non-painful, their dog-family REWARDS them with continued play & continued attention. When a bitey pup becomes soft-mouthed, we humans tend to ignore him or her - which isn't rewarding at all.
.
.
As for breed tendencies, both GSDs & BSD-Mals tend to be extremely mouthy as pups, just like other herding breeds - but BSD-Mals take it to another level of intensity. Not only do they snap & nip - which uses the INCISORS at the front of the mouth - but they often deliver *full mouth, full force bites *using as many teeth as they can get into contact with the body-area.
By definition, that's not "nipping", it's biting. Nips with needle-sharp milk teeth can mean pink dents or scratches or a tiny puncture or two, typically from the canines or eyeteeth - BITES mean multiple small or larger bleeding punctures.
.
.
In the USA among their fans, BSD-Mals are lovingly nicknamed "Maligators".
Those who don't love the breed call them many other things, & quite a few can't be used in mixed company or around children, nor printed here.
.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
I also note the phrase, _"he *knows *'come' & 'sit'." _Sorry, but t'ain't so. :-(
.
9-WO pups know a lot, compared to 5-WO or 6-WO pups - but they can't be said to "know" any cued behaviors, as *knowing *means the dog can perform the behavior fluently on cue, a minimum of 80% of the time, on the *1st* cue - not the 2nd! - while exposed to various distractions.
Most 9-WO pups haven't even experienced the majority of everyday normal distractions for the 1st time, let alone flawlessly & promptly performed a particular cued behavior WHILE distracted.
.
A reliable off-leash recall under distractions is the most demanding cued behavior, for the vast majority of dogs, & few attain it before they reach 12 to 18-MO, even with assiduous training.
.
.
'SIT' is often the 1st cued behavior a pup learns, & thus the most familiar & ingrained - but Ian Dunbar, VMD, has been offering a $10K challenge to anyone whose dog will sit on the 1st cue, under any circumstances he can devise - which include handlers verbally cueing sit whilst lying flat on their backs on the floor, or sitting in a chair facing AWAY from the dog, or, or, or...
To the best of my knowledge, Dr Dunbar has yet to pay out to a perfectly-compliant dog & handler. Many have tried.
.
.
.


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## Guest (Nov 5, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Ah, the old baffle them with the jargon and hope they don't ask questions approach. I don't consider myself an idiot but the "explanation" of Temperament told me absolutely nothing at all. I don't have a clue what predatory aspect is or preyful one or how they're different or why they both need to be in the same frame of reference. So I'm still non the wiser as to what the difference between Temperament and temperament is.


Predatory aspect and preyful aspect as far as I can tell is Kevin Behan jargon, and he is most definitely a baffle them with jargon type. 
Basically he's an old school trainer who uses tug and treats as a reward - and a not very effective trainer at that. He basically tries to make it seem like what he is doing is something entirely different than what everyone else is doing with the smoke and mirrors thing and convoluted explanations. He's just a run of the mill average skill trainer who still thinks cranking up on a choke chain is appropriate and who's trying to market himself to an unsuspecting public. Same old same old...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

.
.
Good grief, more Behan-BS, as if the world needs more waffling whiffery, LOL.
[James Earl Jones' voice,_*"Be the *__*moose*__*..."*_] ;--D)
.
His acolyte, LCK, used to post on the USA-apdt trainers' bulletin board, & if U
haven't sampled any of LCK's convoluted illogic, Google any of his old articles
from the [on-line] version of Psych Today magazine - they finally tossed him off
their columnist roster, & i could never fathom how he got on it, myself.
.
Lee Charles Kelley writes the most impenetrable thickets of nonlogic i think i've
ever read, when he tries to explicate the behavior of dogs, or justify various odd
or outright bizarre training methods or the theories behind them.
He & Mr Behan write [glowing] reviews of one another's work on Amazon. ;--}}
.
.
.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I just read the story from the dog trainer at her wellness check. Hilarious. 

I had a collie that I did obedience with who needed really gearing up to work properly which ended with bruises all down my leg from her teeth. A friend whose dog was even worse at biting her leg had to go to A and E for something and had a nurse trying to get her to admit to domestic abuse. So glad no one ever saw my legs!


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## Guest (Nov 15, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I just read the story from the dog trainer at her wellness check. Hilarious.


It's definitely one of my favorites 
"I had led her to believe that I too valued a well trained dog...." cracks me up so much!
There is definitely that disconnect in the eyes of Joe Public with the idea of "well trained" and the craziness some of our dogs end up doing as we're working with them


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