# Putting a bell on a dog's collar?!



## GoldenShadow

Had a bit of an  lightbulb moment yesterday!

On the way back from a walk yesterday we came across a labrador with a bell on its collar. Didn't dawn until the dog had passed that maybe it was similar as to why cat's wear them, so wildlife hear them coming and you can hear where they are I suppose.

Has anyone tried this/think it might be something worth trying? Rupert is a chaser and I know I can't get that out of him as such but even if I could hear him on his way back that might help a bit I suppose.

Don't know if its just a bit daft?! Singing:


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## Rolosmum

We regularly see two golden retrievers with bells on so that the owner can here them!


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## newfiesmum

You won't know until you try. I doubt Ferdie would put up with it, it would annoy him intensely. But then it would get tangled up in their fur and not make any noise anyway!


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## ClaireandDaisy

I wouldn`t do it. Imagine having tinnitus? That`s what it would be like to the dog.


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## GoldenShadow

Rolosmum said:


> We regularly see two golden retrievers with bells on so that the owner can here them!


Haha that's really interesting, I've never seen it before until yesterday.



newfiesmum said:


> You won't know until you try. I doubt Ferdie would put up with it, it would annoy him intensely. But then it would get tangled up in their fur and not make any noise anyway!


I don't think Roo would find it that bad, his tags jangle a small amount anyway I'm wondering if its much different?



ClaireandDaisy said:


> I wouldn`t do it. Imagine having tinnitus? That`s what it would be like to the dog.


I suppose. Do you think the same re cats too? His tags jangle a bit. I worry more about it being something else to get stuck or wedged on branches and the like if he's rushing through undergrowth, silly moo.

Its hard to know what direction to go in with him. The odds of him catching anything are low, he will give up chasing relatively quickly (under a minute) now he's a bit more mature. Some people say I should just let him off get on with it otherwise he will not learn.

Other people say its terrible for him to chase anything for the animal and I must do my upmost to never let it happen, but I really don't think I can stamp that out 100% at this point if ever. Hence he's confined to a lunge line an awful lot.

Just not sure which way to go, I'm aware I over think things hugely with him and struggle to be rational at times for fear of him getting hurt first and foremost


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## newfiesmum

I put a bell on one of my cats once to stop him chasing the birds. It lasted only a few hours before he pulled it off! I wouldn't like it, so what would the dog think?


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## GoldenShadow

newfiesmum said:


> I put a bell on one of my cats once to stop him chasing the birds. It lasted only a few hours before he pulled it off! I wouldn't like it, so what would the dog think?


I can see that logic 

I don't think Roo would be massively bothered by it but I think it would annoy me after not very long Singing:


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## hawksport

All my birds wear a pair of bells and they still catch plenty and at £20 a pair they are a lot louder than bells you get in pet shops


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## smokeybear

Unless you have attached Big Ben to their collar, dogs are no more likely to suffer from "Tinnitus" or "noise induced hearing loss" than by the jangling of their discs etc. 

HAs anyone met any cats with Tinnitus? 

Nor is the jangling of a bell similar to the medical condition Tinnitus (IME)

I put a bell on my dogs when I exercise them in the dark; in the winter, 90% of their exercise is in the dark, on the Wiltshire Downs. So there are no lights, I do not wear or carry a torch and even their flashing collars can be obscured at times by undergrowth or the direction in which they are going.

I find it a useful safety feature, similar to having a dog tattood AND chipped, if one fails (the light) I have a bell as a back up.


Bells will not stop dogs chasing birds, but training will............ 

ETA as my dogs do not wear collars apart from when outside and they only wear bells in the dark (mine clip on) their exposure to sound is a minute percentage of their day.

I do not have the TV or radio for more than about 4 hours a day at most if at all, so their sound exposure is very small.


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## Sarah1983

A bell on my Ruperts collar would drive me insane, god knows what it would do to him given how upset he was about a tag on his collar.

As for chasing...I don't understand how letting him get on with it will teach him anything except that chasing is fun. Unfortunately mine learned this before I got him and the thrill of chasing and killing something far outweighs anything I have to offer.


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## GoldenShadow

smokeybear said:


> Unless you have attached Big Ben to their collar, dogs are no more likely to suffer from "Tinnitus" or "noise induced hearing loss" than by the jangling of their discs etc.
> 
> HAs anyone met any cats with Tinnitus?
> 
> Nor is the jangling of a bell similar to the medical condition Tinnitus (IME)
> 
> I put a bell on my dogs when I exercise them in the dark; in the winter, 90% of their exercise is in the dark, on the Wiltshire Downs. So there are no lights, I do not wear or carry a torch and even their flashing collars can be obscured at times by undergrowth or the direction in which they are going.
> 
> I find it a useful safety feature, similar to having a dog tattood AND chipped, if one fails (the light) I have a bell as a back up.
> 
> Bells will not stop dogs chasing birds, but training will............


Wanna give me some of your training tips then 

He's three now and its been an ongoing battle since he was 10 months old. He is better than he was but I think that's largely down to maturity. I've been working on his steadiness training but its very difficult to loop it in with offlead work when I've not got an environment I can vaguely control. I don't even know what approach to really use with him right now, its a bit of a muddle I just don't know what approach is the best or if I'm doing it massively wrong still.



Sarah1983 said:


> A bell on my Ruperts collar would drive me insane, god knows what it would do to him given how upset he was about a tag on his collar.
> 
> As for chasing...I don't understand how letting him get on with it will teach him anything except that chasing is fun. Unfortunately mine learned this before I got him and the thrill of chasing and killing something far outweighs anything I have to offer.


Its not just about letting him get on with it per say, but their argument is by being on a lunge line he can't chase, and when he sees something to chase offlead it has a massive novelty factor due to the rarity of him being offlead. They think this which will wear off to a degree and enable me to train him more effectively as that happens, but a lunge line and restraining him is too far away from being offlead to really help. Does that make sense?


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## ClaireandDaisy

hawksport said:


> All my birds wear a pair of bells and they still catch plenty and at £20 a pair they are a lot louder than bells you get in pet shops


I wouldn`t have thought birds hunt by sound that much. 
Unlike dogs.


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## Grace_Lily

Every new pet we have wears a bell for the first few months so we know where they are. I've also just bought 6 new bells for the dogs to wear now that winter is drawing in and they're being walked in the dark.


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## troublestrouble

Trouble's got a coupe of tags on different loops so they jingle as she walks and that has always been enough to hear her at a good distance and she doesn't seem to mind. I will be doing the same with Stark when she is big enough to go out, she's still getting used to a collar poor love, quite funny to watch her fuss over it though


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## Sarah1983

GoldenShadow said:


> Its not just about letting him get on with it per say, but their argument is by being on a lunge line he can't chase, and when he sees something to chase offlead it has a massive novelty factor due to the rarity of him being offlead. They think this which will wear off to a degree and enable me to train him more effectively as that happens, but a lunge line and restraining him is too far away from being offlead to really help. Does that make sense?


In a way it does but imo there's too much risk of it going the other way and the dog learning that chasing is highly exciting and rewarding and the behaviour getting worse. I've always been told that a key part of teaching dogs not to chase is to manage them so that they don't get the chance to do it in the first place.


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## smokeybear

Sarah1983 said:


> In a way it does but imo there's too much risk of it going the other way and the dog learning that chasing is highly exciting and rewarding and the behaviour getting worse. I've always been told that a key part of teaching dogs not to chase is to manage them so that they don't get the chance to do it in the first place.


Correct, why give dogs the opportunity to practice inappropriate behaviour? It just means they can keep on rehearsing until they get better and better at it; the behaviour becomes stronger and more difficult to eradicate.

Prevention is always better than cure.


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## smokeybear

GoldenShadow said:


> Wanna give me some of your training tips then


Sure

*Why cant I get a reliable recall?*

Come is no harder to train than any other behaviour but in real life it has a huge number of criteria that have to be raised one at a time in order to guarantee success.

Often when puppies are brought home to their new owners this is the first time they have ever been separated from their dam and siblings and so they naturally attach themselves to their new family by following them about everywhere. Owners find this quite attractive and wrongly assume that this trait will continue into adolescence/adulthood, whatever the circumstances. A dangerous trap to fall into

At some point in time, usually from around 6  10 months, depending on the individual, Velcro dog will morph into Bog off dog (this is especially true of a breed that has been developed to exhibit a high degree of initiative). This is the time when owners suddenly realize that their dog will not recall when it sees another dog/person etc. Not only is this inconvenient but potentially dangerous as the dog could be at risk of injury from a car/train/another dog etc.

*How and when do I start with a puppy?*

My advice is to prepare for this inevitability from the day you take your puppy home. If you are lucky the breeder will have started this process whilst still in the nest by conditioning the puppies to a whistle blown immediately before putting the food bowl down during weaning. 
Dogs learn by cause and effect ie sound of whistle = food. If you, the new owner, continue this from the moment your puppy arrives you will lay down strong foundations for the future.

By using the whistle in association with meals/food you need to establish the following criteria:

	Come from across the room. 
	Come from out of sight 
	Come no matter who calls
	Come even if you are busy doing something else
	Come even if you are asleep. 
	Come even if you are playing with something/someone else
	Come even if you are eating

Once this goal has been realized in the house, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the garden.

Once this goal has been realized in the garden, drop all the criteria to zero and establish the same measures, one at a time, in the park/field etc.

To train this, or any other behaviour:

1.	Make it easy for the dog to get it right
2.	Provide sufficient reward

Do not expect a dog to come away from distractions in the park until you have trained it to come to you in the park when no diversions are around. Be realistic and manage your expectations; your sphere of influence/control over your dog may be only 20m to begin with, therefore do not hazard a guess that the dog, at this level of training, will successfully recall from 50m or more away. Distance, like every other criterion, must be built up over time.

Some simple rules to follow when training the recall:

	Whistle/signal/call only once (why train the dog to deliberately ignore your first command?)
	Do not reinforce slow responses for the dog coming eventually after it has cocked its leg, sniffed the tree etc (you get what you train!)
	If you know that the dog will not come back to you in a certain situation, go and get him rather than risk teaching him that he can ignore you. (If you have followed the programme correctly you will never put your dog in a position to fail).
	Practise recalling the dog, putting him on the lead for a few seconds, reinforce with food/toy etc and immediately release the dog. Do this several times during a walk etc so that the dog does not associate a recall with going on the lead and ending the walk or being put on the lead with the cessation of fun.
	Eventually, when the behaviour is very strong, alternate rewards ie verbal praise, physical praise, food, toy and also vary the value of the rewards, sometimes a plain piece of biscuit, sometimes a piece of cooked liver etc so that you become a walking slot machine (and we all know how addictive gambling can be)!

In my experience recall training should be consistent and relentless for the first two years of a dogs life before it can be considered truly dependable. You should look on it as a series of incremental steps, rather than a single simple behaviour, and something that will require lifelong maintenance.

*What about an older or rescue dog?*

Follow the same programme as outlined above however for recalcitrant dogs that have received little or no training, I would recommend dispensing with the food bowl and feeding a dog only during recalls to establish a strong behaviour quickly.

Your training should be over several sessions a day, which means you can avoid the risk of bloat. It is essential that the dog learns that there will be consequences for failure as well as success.

Divide the days food ration up into small bags (between 10  30), if the dog recalls first time, it gets food, if it does not, you can make a big show of saying too bad and disposing of that portion of food (either throw it away or put aside for the next day).

Again, raise the criteria slowly as outlined in puppy training.

Hunger is very motivating!

For those of you who believe it unfair/unhealthy to deprive a dog of its _full _daily ration, not having a reliable recall is potentially life threatening for the dog 

*How do I stop my dog chasing joggers/cyclists/skateboarders/rabbits/deer?*
Chasing something that is moving is a management issue. Do not put your dog in a position where it can make a mistake. Again you need to start training from a pup but if you have already allowed your dog to learn and practise this behaviour you may need to rely on a trailing line until your dog is desensitised to these distractions and knows that listening to you results in a great reinforcement. Chasing is a behaviour much better never learned as it is naturally reinforcing to the dog, which makes it hard for you to offer a better reinforcement. If you want to have a bombproof recall while your dog is running away from you then use the following approach:

Your goal is to train so that your dog is totally used to running away from you at top speed, and then turning on a sixpence to run toward you when you give the recall cue.

You need to set up the training situation so that you have total control over the triggers. For this you will need to gain the co-operation of a helper. If you have a toy crazy dog you can practice this exercise by throwing a toy away from the dog towards someone standing 30 or 40 feet away. At the instant the toy is thrown, recall your dog! If the dog turns toward you, back up several steps quickly, creating even more distance between the you and the toy and then throw another toy in the opposite direction (same value as one thrown)..

If the dog ignores you and continues toward the thrown object, your helper simply picks the ball up and ignores dog. When dog eventually returns (which it will because its getting no reinforcement from anyone or anything), praise only. Pretty soon the dog will start to respond to a recall off a thrown toy. You will need to mix in occasions the toy is thrown and the dog is allowed to get it ie you do NOT recall if you want to make sure it does not lose enthusiasm for retrieving.

For the food obsessed dog, you can get your helper to wave a food bowl with something the dog loves in it and then recall the dog as soon as you let it go to run towards the food; again if the dog ignores you and continues to the food, your helper simply ensures the dog cannot access the food and start again. (It is extremely important that the helper does not use your dogs name to call it for obvious reasons).

Gradually increase the difficulty of the recall by letting the dog get closer and closer to the toy/food. Praise the moment the dog turns away from the toy/food in the 
early stages of training. Don't wait until the dog returns to you; the dog must have instant feedback.

Once the dog is fluent at switching directions in the middle of a chase, try setting up the situation so that it is more like real life. Have someone ride a bike/run/skate past. (It is unrealistic to factor in deer/rabbits however if your training is thorough the dog will eventually be conditioned to return to you whatever the temptation in most contexts).

Until your training gets to this level, don't let the dog off-lead in a situation in which you don't have control over the chase triggers. Don't set the dog up to fail, and don't allow it to rehearse the problem behaviour. Remember, every time a dog is able to practise an undesirable behaviour it will get better at it!

Most people do not play with toys correctly and therefore the dog is not interested in them or, if it gets them, fails to bring it back to the owner.

Play the two ball game, once you have a dog ball crazy. Have two balls the same, throw one to the left, when the dog gets it, call him like crazy waving the next ball; as he comes back throw the other ball to the right and keep going left right so that YOU are the centre of the game and the dog gets conditioned to return to you for the toy. Once this behaviour is established you can then introduce the cues for out and then make control part of the game ie the game is contingent on the dog sitting and then progress to a sequence of behaviours.

HTH

How do I stop my dog chasing? - David Ryan CCAB


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## hawksport

ClaireandDaisy said:


> I wouldn`t have thought birds hunt by sound that much.
> Unlike dogs.


I thought the idea of the bell on the dogs collar was to alert the prey to the dogs presence rather than stop the dog hearing the prey


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## Leanne77

I think having a bell on your dogs collar is a good idea because it alerts you to where your dog is, it alerts other people to the presence of your dog if they cannot see it (they might have a dog they need to put onlead or something) and it alerts wildlife.

Personally, I want my dogs to be silent and not alert rabbits, pheasants etc to their presence so they do not wear a bell and they have a silencer on their ID tags.


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## GoldenShadow

smokeybear said:


> Sure


Thanks Smokeybear.

Probably sounds like I'm splitting hairs now, but this is where I struggle a bit.

In regard to being 'allowed' to chase I don't really understand where to draw the line. He loves chase even with our other dog, and as part of the recall process I've done the running away and getting him to chase me. I don't know if either of those fuel his desire to chase more, but I don't feel I can stop the first part at least, its a massive part of their play.

Wish I had more money to play with at the minute then I'd get some 1:2:1 with a decent trainer but at £50 a pop I just can't afford it as often as we'd need it. The objectivity of someone else really helps, but on my own its so hard to know what to do when. I know not to set him up to fail and this is partly why he is only semi whistle trained still, I don't want to overuse it and have him not return to it so its only lightly used. But in the same breath there are times I call him thinking he actually will come, that he doesn't and so we do fail anyway. Some days are so much worse than others 

For a while I worked on getting him to stop and sit when he saw movement which was OK, but then if I didn't get in first I lost him. Once he begins chase I can't see how I can stop him until he decides to come back so I know its that bit I need to target. Making the chase less appealing to him...


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## SLB

Until Louie ripped his off, his tags had a silencer around them, haven't gotten round to buying another one yet. 

I used to have a bell on Sadie when I was riding so I could hear her and knew which side she was on (bike) so that if she was on my left I wouldn't turn into her by accident.. I needn't have bothered because she was always in front of me.. also because she is black, it was so I could hear where she was in the dark (before all these flashing things).

I think having one on a dog that hunts would be worse because the noise would make the animals run away.. surely? It's great so you can hear where they are but I'm not sure of it really...


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## smokeybear

GoldenShadow said:


> In regard to being 'allowed' to chase I don't really understand where to draw the line. He loves chase even with our other dog, and as part of the recall process I've done the running away and getting him to chase me. I don't know if either of those fuel his desire to chase more, but I don't feel I can stop the first part at least, its a massive part of their play.
> 
> Wish I had more money to play with at the minute then I'd get some 1:2:1 with a decent trainer but at £50 a pop I just can't afford it as often as we'd need it. The objectivity of someone else really helps, but on my own its so hard to know what to do when. I know not to set him up to fail and this is partly why he is only semi whistle trained still, I don't want to overuse it and have him not return to it so its only lightly used. But in the same breath there are times I call him thinking he actually will come, that he doesn't and so we do fail anyway. Some days are so much worse than others
> 
> For a while I worked on getting him to stop and sit when he saw movement which was OK, but then if I didn't get in first I lost him. Once he begins chase I can't see how I can stop him until he decides to come back so I know its that bit I need to target. Making the chase less appealing to him...


Is your recall 100% in the house as per my article? If it is not it is THERE you need to work, not outside. And when I say 100% I mean 100% ie

1 Signal = 2 Behaviour = 3 Consequence

There MUST be consequences for behaviour and they must be crystal clear to the dog.

My criteria for a recall are:

1 Signal = verbal/or whistle

2 Behaviour = come right back to me immediately without stopping, sniffing, cocking a leg, eating, drinking, playing

3 Consequence = access to me, food, toy, smell, dog (depending on various things)

If I give 1 and the behaviour does not match (2) then the consequence (3) will be a loss of access to me, food, toy, dog, sniff etc.

It has to be THIS black and white.

Dogs do what works.

At the moment, ignoring you "works".

When I give a signal, it is not a _request_, it is not a _nice to have_ (in a domestic situation).

It could save my dog's life, so failure is not an option.

If your dog is on a line, he cannot actually fail, as of course you can ensure that he DOES come back.

It is simple.


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## L/C

I have a bell on Gypsy's harness so I can hear her in the dark and when she's off in the undergrowth in woods. It doesn't seem to bother her at all and gives me a bit of extra peace of mind - not sure if it warns the squirrels or not!


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## smokeybear

SLB said:


> I think having one on a dog that hunts would be worse because the noise would make the animals run away.. surely? It's great so you can hear where they are but I'm not sure of it really...


Er that is the idea I think! 

Of course if you were out on a shoot or a FT, the issue becomes irrelevant as your dog would not be wearing a collar to begin with.


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## Nonnie

I always used to have bells on Oscar, to allow wildlife to know he was there well before he got into their general vicinity, giving them a chance to move on, to alert other people and livestock, but mainly so i knew his location and was able to recall him if he started to stray too far. He loved rooting around in the undergrowth and being a red dog, often blended in beautifully.

The noise isnt loud enough to cause irritation or discomfort to a dog.


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## SLB

smokeybear said:


> Er that is the idea I think!
> 
> Of course if you were out on a shoot or a FT, the issue becomes irrelevant as your dog would not be wearing a collar to begin with.


It may be the idea but in the case of rabbits you can be over the top of them not making a sound and they will lie still - I know because I and the dogs have gone over the top of them and only realised they were there when they ran the other way after we were past them.. But make a sound and they will run - causing a chase which is the exact opposite of what it is supposed to do..

Either that or I've come across some defective rabbits..


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## smokeybear

Yeah, rabbits hearing is really bad, they cannot hear us breathing, talking, singing or the sound of our boots pounding the earth.

If a rabbit needed a bell to make itself aware of approaching predators, then they would be extinct by now........ 

No rabbits lie still when I have been walking my dogs, hares, occasionally, but that is the latter's nature as they have forms rather than burrows.


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## Cleo38

GoldenShadow said:


> Thanks Smokeybear.
> 
> Probably sounds like I'm splitting hairs now, but this is where I struggle a bit.
> 
> *In regard to being 'allowed' to chase I don't really understand where to draw the line*. He loves chase even with our other dog, and as part of the recall process I've done the running away and getting him to chase me. I don't know if either of those fuel his desire to chase more, but I don't feel I can stop the first part at least, its a massive part of their play.
> 
> Wish I had more money to play with at the minute then I'd get some 1:2:1 with a decent trainer but at £50 a pop I just can't afford it as often as we'd need it. The objectivity of someone else really helps, but on my own its so hard to know what to do when. I know not to set him up to fail and this is partly why he is only semi whistle trained still, I don't want to overuse it and have him not return to it so its only lightly used. But in the same breath there are times I call him thinking he actually will come, that he doesn't and so we do fail anyway. Some days are so much worse than others
> 
> For a while I worked on getting him to stop and sit when he saw movement which was OK, but then if I didn't get in first I lost him. Once he begins chase I can't see how I can stop him until he decides to come back so I know its that bit I need to target. Making the chase less appealing to him...


I've highlihted this as I've often read about people saying they don't 'allow' their dog to chase & really don't understand what this means, does it mean they keep them leashed all the time then?

I know how much you've said you struggle with Ruperst chasing & I am in a similar situation with Roxy (Toby will chase but he gives up quite easily ). Roxy would run for miles gievn half a chance.

If she's on a long line then she doesn't chase - she's not stupid & knows that she hasn't got a chance of catching when leashed. I am also very vigilant when out (so much that I start imagining I'm seeing deer!) & any hint of an animal then she's back on her lead.

We practise recall using various methods, I've had several 1-2-1's with trainers, read books, etc & yet she would still chase. She has got better, I can recall her from chasing birds when we do out river walks but if there are too many she starts getting hyped up so goes back on her lead until she has calmed down & we then try again.

Tbh I really don;t think we will ever stop this. I can understand why she does this (or more accurately, will do it - she hasn't had an opportunity to chase anything for ages now as I've always managed to spot things). It's fun & I can understand that there is NOTHING more fun than chasing an animal, no amount of food or fave toy can compete. Maybe I'm [email protected] at managing this or maye this rot of training can take years but after a year of working on this I really don't believe I could recall her successfully from a chase


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## catz4m8z

I keep meaning to get a bell for Hannahs harness. Being part Daschund the minute she is off the lead she heads straight for the nearest undergrowth or hedge and I end up tracking her progress by watching for birds being flushed.
Also a bell would stop me looking a complete prat when Im standing and calling her from one direction and she comes pottering up behind me!!LOL


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## Sarah1983

Cleo38,it's been close to 8 years here and I know damn well I couldn't call Rupert off a chase. He's sentenced to life on a long line unless we're in a fully fenced, secure area. I've just accepted it now to be honest, he no longer lunges and screams and whirls and bucks and rears when he sees cats, birds, horses etc while on leash (still does for sheep though!) but it is obviously still an effort for him to not go after them. And if they get close enough...well lets just say he's had pigeon for dinner a few times despite being leashed.


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## Manoy Moneelil

If the dog is hunting cats - the prey might think it's an approaching cat coming through the bushes when hearing a gentle tinkle :thumbup1:


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## TabithaJ

I think a bell is a great idea and am going to order one for the collar Dex wears when we go to parks etc.

*GOLDENSHADOW:*

If it's any help, my dog is a chaser too 

SMOKEY BEAR's advice is spot on and will help you - it's helped me 

I find that the only way to really get a solid recall is to practise it - relentlessly 

I have also found that rewarding with a VERY high value treat helps, as does turning the recall into a quick game, it can be something really simple, but anything where I get to yell praise and sound excited seems to really work with Dexter....


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## Cleo38

But if th dog does not retunr immediately then what sort of 'consequence' is there? No treat? No toy? No atttention? Tbh in an environment with no distractions (or running animal) then I have found this works but I have found that there is no reward that comes close to chasing for Roxy. 

In an example then, you call your dog; s/he fails to respond - what do you do? Do they get put back on their lead? If so then how do they make the distinction between the failure to respond & the consequence? 

The only time a food reward is any lure is if she hasn't been fed & even then it would not be considered if she had an option to chase. I have had relative success with using squeaky ball but I know full well that if she caught sight of something,unless I was so quick to distract her she would be off.

The only effective 'consequence' that Roxy has truly encountered when chasing was to be attacked by a swan. She dived in to the river, the swan turned round, swam towards her & went for her. It continued until she was out of the water. She no longer chases swans  Now I just need a rabbit, a deer, a hare. a pheasant, etc to do the same!!

Maybe I am expecting too much or maybe, for some dogs, chasing can never be curbed


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## smokeybear

Cleo38 said:


> But if th dog does not retunr immediately then what sort of 'consequence' is there? No treat? No toy? No atttention? Tbh in an environment with no distractions (or running animal) then I have found this works but I have found that there is no reward that comes close to chasing for Roxy.
> 
> In an example then, you call your dog; s/he fails to respond - what do you do? Do they get put back on their lead? If so then how do they make the distinction between the failure to respond & the consequence?
> 
> The only time a food reward is any lure is if she hasn't been fed & even then it would not be considered if she had an option to chase. I have had relative success with using squeaky ball but I know full well that if she caught sight of something,unless I was so quick to distract her she would be off.
> 
> The only effective 'consequence' that Roxy has truly encountered when chasing was to be attacked by a swan. She dived in to the river, the swan turned round, swam towards her & went for her. It continued until she was out of the water. She no longer chases swans  Now I just need a rabbit, a deer, a hare. a pheasant, etc to do the same!!
> 
> Maybe I am expecting too much or maybe, for some dogs, chasing can never be curbed


If you believe that chasing can never be curbed, then your belief will no doubt become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Nature abhors a vacuum and if your dog likes chasing you can transfer this prey drive onto a ball.

I have two dogs with a high prey drive, one has an extremely high prey drive, but they do not chase animals because they have never been allowed to develop the habit.

Have you read David Ryan's book? Have you ever attended a specialist recall workshop?


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## Sarah1983

> Nature abhors a vacuum and if your dog likes chasing you can transfer this prey drive onto a ball.


I'd love to know how. Rupert knows the difference between a toy and live prey and a toy just doesn't cut it no matter how hard I work on getting him obsessed with it.


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## happysaz133

I think I would probably try it, but have the bell detachable, so you only put it on when the dog is offlead.


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## arlow

We put one of these on our Lab whenever we go backpacking:

Hunting Bell, Dog Training, Dog Supplies, Hunting : Cabela's

He doesn't seem to mind at all and it helps us keep track of him.


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## Cleo38

smokeybear said:


> If you believe that chasing can never be curbed, then your belief will no doubt become a self fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> Nature abhors a vacuum and if your dog likes chasing you can transfer this prey drive onto a ball.
> 
> I have two dogs with a high prey drive, one has an extremely high prey drive, but they do not chase animals because they have never been allowed to develop the habit.
> 
> Have you read David Ryan's book? Have you ever attended a specialist recall workshop?


Sorry, but I just don't belive that my opinion will transfer on to my dog.

Yes, I have read the David Ryan book (& many others) several times now & attended specialist workshops. All were very interesting & gave good advice which has helped (to a degree). I am still not convinced though.David Ryan also advises using citronella collars for some dogs who still chase despite the training recommended. alot of people here disgaree with these - what do you think? Tbh I have always been against things like this but ......

Hopw can a ball EVER be as exciting as chasing a live animal? From my dogs point of view I completely understand why she chases. Again you use the phrasee 'never been allowed to chase' - what does that mean exactly? Were they always leashed? As I said previously idf Roxy is leashed then she rarely tries to chase as she knows she won't be able to, offlead then she will. Hopw can I not 'let' her chase when off lead short or preventing the chase in the first place which is incredibly difficult in some cases as I have to constantly be aware of every single movement or noise.


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## dorrit

I used to have a dog that would sneak along the borders in the garden and then pounce on pidgeons and starlings.. We put a bell on her collar which she only wore outside and it cured the killing spree..

I know a woman with a bloodhoud and it does wear a big cow/goat bell round its neck just so she can hear it when he stops baying!
She doesnt want to confine him to a lead all his life but needs to keep him within safe limits..

All tools are subject to the users skill and expectation.. A bell wont cure chasing but it might take the fun out of it and so lessen the dogs enthusiasum..It wont stop a dog running off but might at least give an indication of direction..

Training is best to stop unwanted behaviour but everyone can use a little help now and then and if a bell helps then why not.


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## smokeybear

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry, but I just don't belive that my opinion will transfer on to my dog.
> 
> Ah well we will have to agree to disagree here.
> 
> Yes, I have read the David Ryan book (& many others) several times now & attended specialist workshops. All were very interesting & gave good advice which has helped (to a degree). I am still not convinced though.David Ryan also advises using citronella collars for some dogs who still chase despite the training recommended. alot of people here disgaree with these - what do you think? Tbh I have always been against things like this but ......
> 
> As I said before, if you wish to remain unconvinced, you will remain unconvinced. I remain equally convinced that you can train dogs to recall reliably and stop them chasing (Although I am willing to concede that for those breeds whose clubs advise never letting them off a lead eg sled dogs, they know best, which is why I would never have one).
> 
> the definition of madness is always doing what you have always done and expecting anything to change.
> 
> If your training is not working, then your training is not efficient or effective is it?
> 
> So you have two choices, change your training or keep your dog on a line.
> 
> Hopw can a ball EVER be as exciting as chasing a live animal? From my dogs point of view I completely understand why she chases. Again you use the phrasee 'never been allowed to chase' - what does that mean exactly? Were they always leashed? As I said previously idf Roxy is leashed then she rarely tries to chase as she knows she won't be able to, offlead then she will. Hopw can I not 'let' her chase when off lead short or preventing the chase in the first place which is incredibly difficult in some cases as I have to constantly be aware of every single movement or noise.


No my dogs are not always leashed, they are on the floor, off the lead from 7 weeks old and I start training the recall then, I get them either food or toy obsessed before they start to think about chasing.

If you have no idea of how a ball can be as exciting as live animals I suggest you go and watch people train who have ball obsessed dogs and whose dogs will ignore any sort of livestock.


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## Sarah1983

smokeybear said:


> No my dogs are not always leashed, they are on the floor, off the lead from 7 weeks old and I start training the recall then, I get them either food or toy obsessed before they start to think about chasing.
> 
> If you have no idea of how a ball can be as exciting as live animals I suggest you go and watch people train who have ball obsessed dogs and whose dogs will ignore any sort of livestock.


Are these dogs who have already learned the joys of the chase and kill and find it hugely rewarding or dogs who have never been given the chance to chase?

As I say, I've followed advice given on how to get your dog obsessed with a toy but with very little success indoors, I stand no chance outdoors.


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## smokeybear

Sarah1983 said:


> Are these dogs who have already learned the joys of the chase and kill and find it hugely rewarding or dogs who have never been given the chance to chase?
> 
> As I say, I've followed advice given on how to get your dog obsessed with a toy but with very little success indoors, I stand no chance outdoors.


Dogs like yours who have rehearsed chasing and killing cannot be trusted off the lead because of the danger they pose to other dogs let alone wildlife, but dogs like this are the rare exception rather than the rule.

It is a bit like sheep killers, you cannot train a dog that is a born killer not to do it, you make sure they are never allowed to access them.


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## TabithaJ

Cleo38 said:


> But if th dog does not return immediately then what sort of 'consequence' is there? No treat? No toy? No atttention? Tbh in an environment with no distractions (or running animal) then I have found this works but I have found that there is no reward that comes close to chasing for Roxy.
> 
> In an example then, you call your dog; s/he fails to respond - what do you do? Do they get put back on their lead? If so then how do they make the distinction between the failure to respond & the consequence?
> 
> The only time a food reward is any lure is if she hasn't been fed & even then it would not be considered if she had an option to chase. I have had relative success with using squeaky ball but I know full well that if she caught sight of something,unless I was so quick to distract her she would be off.
> 
> The only effective 'consequence' that Roxy has truly encountered when chasing was to be attacked by a swan. She dived in to the river, the swan turned round, swam towards her & went for her. It continued until she was out of the water. She no longer chases swans  Now I just need a rabbit, a deer, a hare. a pheasant, etc to do the same!!
> 
> Maybe I am expecting too much or maybe, for some dogs, chasing can never be curbed


This is the problem I have too. I've found that the only 'consequence' which works is to* immediately* go to my dog, without speaking, and put him back on the lead, and then walk him on the lead for the next ten minutes, again without speaking.

Then I do a recall while he's on the lead - even though he's of course only at the end of the lead. I praise him like mad IF he responds swiftly and then let him off lead again.

Sometimes I have had to repeat this four times in a row before my dog has realised that *RECALL = FREEDOM (OFF LEASH)*

*So I think what one has to do is show the dog that ONLY by recalling can they be off leash.*

Hope that helps a little bit.


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## Guest

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry, but I just don't belive that my opinion will transfer on to my dog.
> 
> Yes, I have read the David Ryan book (& many others) several times now & attended specialist workshops. All were very interesting & gave good advice which has helped (to a degree). I am still not convinced though.David Ryan also advises using citronella collars for some dogs who still chase despite the training recommended. alot of people here disgaree with these - what do you think? Tbh I have always been against things like this but ......
> 
> Hopw can a ball EVER be as exciting as chasing a live animal? From my dogs point of view I completely understand why she chases. Again you use the phrasee 'never been allowed to chase' - what does that mean exactly? Were they always leashed? As I said previously idf Roxy is leashed then she rarely tries to chase as she knows she won't be able to, offlead then she will. *Hopw can I not 'let' her chase when off lead short or preventing the chase in the first place which is incredibly difficult in some cases as I have to constantly be aware of every single movement or noise*.


May be a bit late for you know as its ractices and self rewarding, but with Buster I just didnt let him off lead til he was reliable and really kept on top of him. He was on a long line til he was over 1 - he caught and killed a bird when he was a puppy, but after that I just never gave him the opportunity to chase. Everytime he even glanced at wildlife i walked in the opposite direction and made something else more exciting (this was at even a slight glance, so he had no chance to focus on the bird/rabbit/squirrel) and relentlessly practiced his recall.

(he is working stock terrier, so it was hard work)

If he ignores recall, I go to him and quietly put him on lead and go home. If he comes to me he gets fuss and a game, if he doesnt he goes home.


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## Sarah1983

smokeybear said:


> Dogs like yours who have rehearsed chasing and killing cannot be trusted off the lead because of the danger they pose to other dogs let alone wildlife, but dogs like this are the rare exception rather than the rule.
> 
> It is a bit like sheep killers, you cannot train a dog that is a born killer not to do it, you make sure they are never allowed to access them.


So it is not just me being a complete and utter failure in failing to break him of his chasing and killing habit then? I keep him on a long line and he's not had the opportunity to chase let alone kill for god knows how long but it's clear the desire is still there.


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## smokeybear

Sarah1983 said:


> So it is not just me being a complete and utter failure in failing to break him of his chasing and killing habit then? I keep him on a long line and he's not had the opportunity to chase let alone kill for god knows how long but it's clear the desire is still there.


No I would never say that knowing your dog's history (although not knowiing him personally)


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## jayne5364

Could it have been one of these?
Stan Rawlinson The Jingler Stop Dogs Pulling on The Lead


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## GoldenShadow

Well I let Rupert offlead on his own today (normally I let him off with other dogs only in safe ish areas). He was quite good really. At home without fail when I say his name he looks at me, and if I say Rupert Come he does come so I know he knows what is what there.

I kept him on a flexi lead for the first 15 mins and made sure he was listening and he didn't put a foot wrong. He was offlead probably about 20 mins but that was long enough I think 

I put him back on when I could see horses cantering round a field (there was a river between us) but I didn't want him to get excited and swim to see them. He didn't even notice them in actual fact and they had gone by the time we got back to that field.

At one point some small birds flew off in front of him and he sort of cantered 15 feet after them but then stopped and went to sniff a hedgerow instead. I didn't recall him because I didn't want to set him up to fail, and in my book he didn't chase them either so I just let him be. If he wanted to chase he would have belted off after them but from his behaviour I think it crossed his mind to chase but he decided not to.

He went a bit deaf at the end when I let him of for another 5 minutes but it was quite windy so there is the chance he didn't hear me and he did come when he seemed to realise (I think he did play a bit deaf though...). During the longer bit offlead he was getting quite far ahead so I turned around and walked the other way for about 15-20 seconds and he was quite a way away I couldn't see him. I called Rupert come and he appeared 10 seconds later 



jayne5364 said:


> Could it have been one of these?
> Stan Rawlinson The Jingler Stop Dogs Pulling on The Lead


I don't think it was but it could have been. It was just on the collar as the dog was offlead


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## RAINYBOW

This is something i have never mastered. Oscar has only ever caught something once but when he is "flushing" mode he is totally deaf and i can't go and get him because he is generally bang in the middle of a blackberry bush 

I am yet to find anything that can match the excitement he gets from bogging off.


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## spaniel04

I am yet to find anything that can match the excitement he gets from bogging off.[/QUOTE]

It is not bogging off he finds exciting it is hunting. And believe me, you will never find anything more exciting than hunting to a spaniel worth his salt. So why not teach him to hunt for you? You give the direction and decide at what range he is allowed to hunt. 
Quite a few of the dogs mentioned in this thread are gundog breeds. So why not work with their instincts and give them something to do whilst you are out on walks rather than letting them become self-employed?


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## smokeybear

Yes one of mine is a gundog, and anHPR, but I do not have a problem with recall........ 

Nor to many other gundog owners............


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## spaniel04

smokeybear said:


> Yes one of mine is a gundog, and anHPR, but I do not have a problem with recall........
> 
> Nor to many other gundog owners............


Compared to training an HPR training my spaniels is a doddle. :biggrin: All they have to do is hunt within range, flush and retrieve the shot game and deliver it tenderly to my hand. Job done.
I remember the HPRs back at home in Germany, they had to do all of that plus tracking down deer and wild boar, and also 'protect' their masters.


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