# the breeder who turned LabraDoodles loose on the world "regrets it"



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Man cross-Bred Labrador and Poodle into Labradoodle, Regret | Global Animal

given it's been almost 30-years, he's a little late coming to this brilliant insight. :thumbdown:

despite the CLAIMS in the comments by other salespeople - Doodles can be just as difficult to train, flighty, 
aggro, distractible, impossible, *allergenic* & disappointing as any other breed or mix; *AND ONLY 50% 
OF F1 PROGENY ARE NON-SHED - THE OTHER 50% BOTH SHED AND MUST BE GROOMED. 
UNLIKE A POODLE, THEY SHED EVERY DAY; UNLIKE A LAB, THEY WILL MAT AND TANGLE.* Congratulations - 
like many designer-crossbreds, the worst of both parents in one package. :nonod:


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## Sqp guy (Sep 20, 2010)

Such a shame. Started out with such good intention


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Such a shame for him to feel such deep regret as he was initially trying to help, However I am glad that this statement is 'out there' and I can only hope that it will reduce the seemingly insatiable need by the public to own a 'designer dog', I doubt it will have a n enormous effect but any effect is welcome. I think he sums up the whole designer dog breeding debarcle perfectly when he says that no one wanted the initial cross breed pups but when given a trendy name , they became an instant hit. They were of course the same cros breed pups just with a fancy name


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Having come across some wonderful labradoodles on here with equally matching owners and also meeting some out and about too- I'm sure they don't regret what he did.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

jo5 said:


> Such a shame for him to feel such deep regret as he was initially trying to help, However I am glad that this statement is 'out there' and I can only hope that it will reduce the seemingly insatiable need by the public to own a 'designer dog', I doubt it will have a n enormous effect but any effect is welcome. I think he sums up the whole designer dog breeding debarcle perfectly when he says that no one wanted the initial cross breed pups but when given a trendy name , they became an instant hit. They were of course the same cros breed pups just with a fancy name


Bit of an old chestnut that, don't believe everything you read in the Press/on the Internet. Do you or anyone else with strong convictions on this personally know of one single cross breed owner who bought it because it had a "trendy name" or because some naff celebrity apparently has one?

If everyone got off their soapbox on this subject and actually talked to people without trading insults you just might be pleasantly enlightened :smile5:


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Bit of an old chestnut that, don't believe everything you read in the Press/on the Internet. Do you or anyone else with strong convictions on this personally know of one single cross breed owner who bought it because it had a "trendy name" or because some naff celebrity apparently has one?
> 
> If everyone got off their soapbox on this subject and actually talked to people without trading insults you just might be pleasantly enlightened :smile5:


Yes I do personally know a few people who have bought cross breeds because its the latest thing and I am sure others have too. One bought a Cavshon the worst cross in my opinion as I owned a Cavie who had to be PTS due to suffering with SM (I bought her 14 yrs ago before MRI testing ), most I am not saying all Cavaliers used to breed in this way will not have had MRI screening She bought it because her friend had bought a 'Jug' and she had so many comments from people about how these 'new' dogs were the bees knees. I don't believe I traded insults with anyone in my statement, when I bought my Cockers I paid £650 for them each from DNA tested parents and Breeders who show their dogs and have an interest in the breed not interest in the money to be made. I could have bought a Cockerpoo for £700 - £800 and guess what very very few had health tests and then only the one parent had ben tested. In cross breeds like this it is imperitive that both parents are tested as they each carry their own 'breed related' conditions. 
IMHO the only reason the majority of these 'breeders ' breed is for money its not to 'improve the breed' as breeding should be as you are not improving a breed you are making one up


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Having come across some wonderful labradoodles on here with equally matching owners and also meeting some out and about too- I'm sure they don't regret what he did.


 Obviously there are some wonderful 'mixes' out there and I would sincerely hope that those who have bought one enjoy their life with it to the full . What I am saying is that if this dissuades one owner from thinking it would be a good idea to breed their Labrador with their friends poodle then that can only be a good thing and hopefully buyers will think twice about spending their hard earned money on these designer cross breeds, its the only way to get this army of unethical breeders under control. If there is no demand for the puppies then hopefully the supply will slow down


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I think this excerpt from the article says it all:

I went to our PR team and said, Go to the press and tell them weve invented a new dog, the labradoodle. It was a gimmick and it went worldwide. No one wanted a cross-breed but the following day we had hundreds of calls from people wanting these master dogs.


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## totalitus (Jul 21, 2011)

Labradoodles are dogs like all other. If I had them, I would love them just as any other dogs I had, and I am sure I would never regret having them.

(PS. they are not my kind of breed, but still, I KNOW I would love them and cherish them).

All living things deserve to live their live and experience what they came here to experience, these dogs are no exception.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Bit of an old chestnut that, don't believe everything you read in the Press/on the Internet. Do you or anyone else with strong convictions on this personally know of one single cross breed owner who bought it because it had a "trendy name" or because some naff celebrity apparently has one?
> 
> If everyone got off their soapbox on this subject and actually talked to people without trading insults you just might be pleasantly enlightened :smile5:


I don't think people have got on their soap boxes on this thread or insulted anyone, & I feel it's good that people question the ethics & motives of the majority of these breeders (not all of them obviously, there are apparently a few, but nowhere near enough, cross breeders who are for the dogs, as opposed to for the profit) & the way they have saturated the market with these crosses
Its not the dogs people on here have an issue with (I've met some lovely Doodles & own a crossbreed myself), its the people who see a money making opportunity at the expense of the dogs' welfare. I also have an issue with people marketing dogs as 'hypoallergenic', when it's just not that clear cut- allergies take many forms & a dog's coat shedding is just a small part of the problem


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

totalitus said:


> Labradoodles are dogs like all other. If I had them, I would love them just as any other dogs I had, and I am sure I would never regret having them.
> 
> (PS. they are not my kind of breed, but still, I KNOW I would love them and cherish them).
> 
> All living things deserve to live their live and experience what they came here to experience, these dogs are no exception.


Of course which I actually said in my earlier post, but in life we all makes mistakes, the important thing is that we learn from them. If what is reported is correct then he has been man enough to say hands up i've made a mistake. Surely then we should accept this and move on from it not shrug our shoulders and say 'well I know some lovely Labradoodles' . By the way I am not being Pedigree elitest in any way here, I grew up with many pedigree dogs of differing Breed, BUT One of my favourite dogs though was a Collie cross that we rescued, it was tied up by the side of the road with 'unwanted' written on a board next to him. He was loyal and brave and I still miss him. We bought a Shitz shu (sp) from what we now believe to be a Puppy Farm, we were ignorant to them at the time, she suffered horribly from many complaints which the Vet confirmed were from inbreeding, she had to be PTS eventually. Lesson learned, if you want a quality dog with as few health problems as is possible go to a respected ethical breeder, if you want a cross breed for a companion go to a rescue, there are hundreds there just as deserving. I see no need to go making up new 'breeds' we have plenty of diversity already:smile5:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Bit of an old chestnut that, don't believe everything you read in the Press/on the Internet. *Do you or anyone else with strong convictions on this personally know of one single cross breed owner who bought it because it had a "trendy name" *or because some naff celebrity apparently has one?
> 
> If everyone got off their soapbox on this subject and actually talked to people without trading insults you just might be pleasantly enlightened :smile5:


Yes, I do know people who've bought cross breeds because they like the idea of having something rarer, with a gimmicky name. Equally, I know of people who have bought pedigrees for a rarity factor, sometimes that rarity factor is basically a fault, such as size or colour.

This story is an old one in any case, he's regretted for years unleashing the Labradoodle not because of his intentions to create a dog that was non-moulting and could be used as an assistance dog, but because of the way it was latched onto by the 'must have' breeders/owners.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

I personally think one of the main issues is those who buy a breed with the wrong expectations. This includes crossbreeds and pedigrees. So many dogs seem to be 'guaranteed' to be 'great with children', 'easy to train', 'loyal' or 'non-shedding' and people are led to believe that their new puppy comes ready made with these characteristics.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

bearcub said:


> I personally think one of the main issues is those who buy a breed with the wrong expectations. This includes crossbreeds and pedigrees. So many dogs seem to be 'guaranteed' to be 'great with children', 'easy to train', 'loyal' or 'non-shedding' and people are led to believe that their new puppy comes ready made with these characteristics.


Proper research before getting any dog, be they a pup, adult or veteran, would put paid to these expectations
No matter what breed or cross, they're dogs & need training, time, effort & socialising & definitely don't come pre programmed


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

simplysardonic said:


> Proper research before getting any dog, be they a pup, adult or veteran, would put paid to these expectations
> No matter what breed or cross, they're dogs & need training, time, effort & socialising & definitely don't come pre programmed


Exactly. That was going to be my next point but my mum phoned while I was typing


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> Man cross-Bred Labrador and Poodle into Labradoodle, Regret | Global Animal
> 
> given it's been almost 30-years, he's a little late coming to this brilliant insight. :thumbdown:
> 
> ...


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

jo5 said:


> Yes I do personally know a few people who have bought cross breeds because its the latest thing and I am sure others have too.


The ones you know personally (as opposed to someone told you, hearsay!) who have done so then all I can say is shallow, sad people - same sorts who would go out & buy a breed simply because it had won Crufts with no consideration whether it would be suitable for them.

Last part of your quote (...... you're sure others have too) is the sort of comment I disagree with, how are you sure? Hand on heart are you really justified in being sure, how do you know? Have you done a mini survey or asked owners on here why they bought a cross or are you really just making assumptions based on other peoples/thoughts comments/some articles in the Press?

Look at it this way, I am not sure that all staffy's are vicious beasts and all their owners are chavs - I can only judge the ones I know and they are nice dogs/nice owners. Does that mean none are indeed vicious owned by chavs or otherwise, it must be true because its widely reported; well I have not personally experienced it so no I am not sure!

Likewise on testing - what is the evidence that the majority or all have not been tested/are poorly bred? Unless every owner or breeder has supplied this information to you then you don't really know. I am not having a go, nor asking the question directly of you, but I have seen this statement made frequently on PF, its never prefaced with "I believe/in my opinion" but made as if its a fact. If you don't approve of crosses you are hardly likely to carry out extended research really are you.

Re the soapbox mention - I wasn't referring to this thread specifically just the general nature of comments made to anything with the merest whiff of crossbreed in it :smilewinkgrin:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/36419-important-rule-regarding-crossbreeds.html

not trying to be a spoil sport but wouldn't anyone to get banned


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

That's the issue with cross breeds though, even more so with doodle's or poo's. You can want a non-shed but end up with a shedding. If you go for a breed that is a full non shed breed (poodle for example) you wont end up with a shedding poodle....the same with temperaments with pedigree's you can (with good breeders who know their lines) pin point a type of temperament were cross's can take the temperament of a poodle or lab in this case.

I am sure the owners love them never the less but there really is no guarantee you will end up with a non-shedding dog. And since its a main sales point for back yard breeders I can almost promise bad breeders will be selling shedding coats as non shedding. Its a crying shame.

Met a labradoodle a few weeks back, cute dog....bit hyper but lovely.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't know why you are all bothering with this again.

Might as well just put the link up to the 100+ pages thread we had the other month on crossbreeds as all the same old stuff just get repeated.

Saves typing it all out again:lol::lol:


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

bearcub said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/36419-important-rule-regarding-crossbreeds.html
> 
> not trying to be a spoil sport but wouldn't anyone to get banned


 Don't think anyone has said anything offensive, yet!


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

bearcub said:


> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/36419-important-rule-regarding-crossbreeds.html
> 
> not trying to be a spoil sport but wouldn't anyone to get banned


I mentioned this thread (the rule thread) to Mark a few months ago, because I brought it up and he said "what cross breed rule?".

I think as long as the discussion is not rude I dont think there's any reason to not allow a discussion.:huh:


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Don't think anyone has said anything offensive, yet!


I know, but I have a feeling this argument has been done. I think leashed for life's post was v. interesting and i enjoyed reading it but don't think it's fair when people start critiscing individual dog breeds or owner's reasons for choosing them as it tends to upset people


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Going off on a slight tangent then, if the original designers of many of todays pedigrees were still around (I will not single out specific breeds as no need to upset anyone) and saw some of the hereditary issues of today, perhaps they would have regrets? After all man manipulated many breeds for their own ends not for the dogs themselves.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

average white band Lets go round again - YouTube


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Going off on a slight tangent then, if the original designers of many of todays pedigrees were still around (I will not single out specific breeds as no need to upset anyone) and saw some of the hereditary issues of today, perhaps they would have regrets? After all man manipulated many breeds for their own ends not for the dogs themselves.


Well yes. The Kennel Club are making steps to eradicate breed standards in certain breeds that are known to cause fatal health issues. Too little, too late imo. They put those breed standards there in the first place.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

bearcub said:


> I know, but I have a feeling this argument has been done. I think leashed for life's post was v. interesting and i enjoyed reading it but don't think it's fair when people start critiscing individual dog breeds or owner's reasons for choosing them as it tends to upset people


The original article was actually out quite sometime ago to be honest so bit out of date.

Quite agree it isn't fair to criticise choice of dog, its no one else's business, would be a boring world if everyone liked the same things. Its the reason for choosing bit though - never seen anyone actually ask, politely or otherwise, just make some rather odd assumptions.

thank you for your concern though - am a big girl and happy with my dog so alls well in my world! Don't have a Labradoodle anyway to be honest, he's a Golden Retriever Cross haha :thumbsup:


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> average white band Lets go round again - YouTube


Nice tune ... used to work with a girl who was married to one of them in the group


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Going off on a slight tangent then, if the original designers of many of todays pedigrees were still around (I will not single out specific breeds as no need to upset anyone) and saw some of the hereditary issues of today, perhaps they would have regrets? After all man manipulated many breeds for their own ends not for the dogs themselves.


Many breeds were created by a group of people breeding in qualities they needed or felt the dogs needed for example; more herding abilities, more hair for colder climate's or less hair for hotter climate's.

Along with breeding in condition accidentally a great deal of conditions have been bred out too. I believe most breed clubs aims are health and temperament whilst keeping to a standard. Sadly some breeds continue to be damaged by breeders who dont care what they breed as long as its of the breed.

If that makes sense.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> The original article was actually out quite sometime ago to be honest so bit out of date.
> 
> Quite agree it isn't fair to criticise choice of dog, its no one else's business, would be a boring world if everyone liked the same things. Its the reason for choosing bit though - never seen anyone actually ask, politely or otherwise, just make some rather odd assumptions.
> 
> thank you for your concern though - am a big girl and happy with my dog so alls well in my world! Don't have a Labradoodle anyway to be honest, he's a Golden Retriever Cross haha :thumbsup:


Maybe I'm just being a tad over concerned because of a thread about dog food that got quite heated and upset a few people 

I had just read the thread re crossbreed rules and was worried people would get banned when they didn't know it wasn't allowed - if you see what I mean


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

No further point in adding to this thread as I have no intention of being banned, we all have our own views on this and that is unlikely to change no matter what views are expressed, what is clear is that we all have a strong love for Dogs and we just want to what is right by them, long may that continue:smile5:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

i think the original idea was sound - BUT the number of people in the world who want a non-shed AKA mandatory groom 
dog, who MUST be corded & bathed periodically or combed regularly, bathed & trimmed, is very limited. 
there's a teeny-weeny market for guide-dogs, & an even tinier fraction of visually-impaired handlers 
who WANT dogs that must be groomed.

if non-shed breeds were so enormously popular, standard Poodles would not be relatively rare in the USA.

guaranteeing any prospective litter as 'hypoallergenic' is misleading in the extreme. Only testing after birth 
will reveal if any of the pups cause no reaction in an individual person. Saliva is the primary trigger - not hair. 
dander is composed of *both* skin cells & saliva from the dog.

here in the USA, i can state with authority that the huge majority of Doodles came from untested parents, 
easily over 90% - the pups were F1s sold *& bought* simply because the cross-breed was heavily advertised; 
appearing on 'Good Morning, America' opened a floodgate of demand. Anyone with an intact Poodle of any size, 
& access to a Labrador of the opposite sex, felt free to churn out litters.

the average price at the time was $1400 to $1800 USA-dollars for a pup, which might not include shipping. 
many of the pups were bought from distant breeders & the parents of the pup were never seen - nor did the breeder 
meet the buyer in the flesh.

the cross-breed was promoted as 'hypoallergenic', non-shedding, intelligent, highly trainable, etc. 
it was ALL HYPE - no mention was made of the 50% of F1 pups who both shed daily, AND mat.

i don't have an issue with crossbreeds, tho i do deplore irresponsible twits who let their dog sire a litter 
thoughtlessly, or let their bitch get pregnant carelessly. But deliberately producing a litter without any 
screening whatever, purely to make a whopping profit on over-priced cross-bred pups, is IMO extremely 
unethical & despicable behavior.

6-months after the Lab x Poodle appeared on 'Good Morning, America', half the shelters in the USA had Doodles 
available for adoption; another 3 or 4-months, and almost every shelter in an urban or suburban area had some 
on hand, or had seen them come thru. They were everywhere as unwanted dogs, from 3-MO to 12-MO.

it was absolutely no different from the flood of Saints after 'Beethoven' or Dals after '101 Dalmatians'. 
we never seem to learn from the past experience of breed-fads; it's disastrous for the dogs & the breed. :nonod:


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> average white band Lets go round again - YouTube


 Or " Going in circles" by the Gap Band


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

I really fail to see the point of this thread.

So what if he regrets it? It's not going to change anything because one person doesn't like the principal anymore.

Besides, if he hadn't done it, im sure somewhere down the line, someone else would have. Crossbreeding has been going on since the dawn of time, and will always be a part of the dog world.

In all honesty, who cares? The way some people bang on about it, you'd have thought there were some horrendously deformed and disfigured dogs wandering around about the place.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Can't really comment on the position in America as not looked into it - how long ago was that though ie the advertising, rescue situation? As you say same things happen when breeds appear in films or as I said win Crufts, so its not a crossbreed specific issue. Doubt will ever educate the gullible as don't look into things until the deed is done.

Certainly here anyone who researches slightly knows about the shedding/allergy claims. I have a great big hairy beast and brush him every day, yes he sheds loads, no doesn't matt - was I aware of this, yes, do I mind no I happen to like hairy dogs! I had a Tibetan Terrier before so tells you all.

Few more answers

Did I buy because they are trendy, no I don't do trendy too long in the tooth and didn't know they were. 
Did I buy because the bloke on Top Gear & Graham Norton have one. Don't make me larf! Don't watch Top Gear, don't like Graham Norton no idea either had a dog let alone what sort.

Feel free to ask if you want to know anything else


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Your forgetting the classic Doodlesrule " did you get him for the name and because they are known as designer dogs" :lol:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

What a suprise, another doodle/cross breed bashing thread.

I really do wonder why I bother with this forum some times.

I'm a much happer dog owner when I'm not reading what a ***t I am for buying a cross.



For the record I got my cross because I wanted him. Not because he's the latest thing (I've only ever heard of one other JRT x Westie on this forum), not because he has a funny made up breed name, or because he looks a certain way, I bought him because I saw him and fell in love with him.

Does it ever get lonely up there in Ivory Towers?!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Jaguar Wright - Same **** Different Day - YouTube


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Your forgetting the classic Doodlesrule " did you get him for the name and because they are known as designer dogs" :lol:


Nope & nope

I actually got him because I wanted to and didn't choose anything else for a very specific reason but its probably even more controversial than the whole crossbreed/doodle/designer dog topic so will keep it zipped:huh:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Nope & nope
> 
> I actually got him because I wanted to and didn't choose anything else for a very specific reason but its probably even more controversial than the whole crossbreed/doodle/designer dog topic so will keep it zipped:huh:


Please PM me that reason.

You won't get a judgment from me.

I'm intrigued...


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Please PM me that reason.
> 
> You won't get a judgment from me.
> 
> I'm intrigued...


Intrigued- you mean nosey


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Intrigued- you mean nosey


How very dare you...

(true dat, brappp!)


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> How very dare you...
> 
> (true dat, brappp!)


Can just picture you saying that as the Catherine Tate character


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> ...how long ago was that... ie, the advertising, rescue situation?


here is a search on Yahoo-Answers - 
Search Results for "labradoodles" - Yahoo! Answers

note that the most-recent Q on page-1 is 5-mos old; the preponderance are 3 to 4-years old. 
they query co$t, R they 'hard to train', mention gran-mal seizures in a litter, ask about thyroid-problems, etc.

on page-2 there are Qs regarding 'breed status' for the Doodle, either Lab-cross or Golden-cross. 
also Qs about size as adults for *miniatures*, asthma sufferers asking about allergenic issues, etc.

it's not till we get to page FIVE that someone mentions their dog's coat tangles, & asks how to prevent it. 
nobody has yet mentioned the 50/50 shedding odds, hip or elbow problems, PRA, Cushings, or other issues.

ways to address allergies effectively: 
nobody has mentioned that *regular bathing* & keeping a dog or cat or bird OUT OF THE bedroom 
of the allergic person has a huge helpful effect; IOW if people simply bathe their dog on a schedule, brush the dog 
OUTSIDE the house, & wipe the dog's feet [all 4] when entering the house, much pollen, mold spores, mildew, etc, 
is kept *out of the carpets & off of the furniture - * & out of the air.

a HEPA filter on the whole-house air return is another simple help. It gets replaced every 90-days, 
carrying all the junk along with it; shut off the air, wait till the fan stops, remove the dirty filter carefully, 
install the clean new filter, TAPE THE EDGES to ensure all the air goes thru the filter, & turn the fan back on.

using *Allerpet-D* is another very simple help that keeps the dander ON THE DOG [Allerpet-C for cats]. 
spray a cloth, wipe AGAINST the hair growth, then WITH the hair-growth to lay the coat down, & let dry. 
i used this when i took my dog on therapy-pet visits; no one ever complained that she caused a problem. 
of course, she was also bathed the night before.

the sales-pitch aspect? here's just one example - 
Google

that's a search for "LabraDoodles for sale in Virginia"

feel free to join DoodlesvilleDoodles on Facebook - they specialize in AussieDoodles [ASD x Poodle]. 
Doodlesville | Doodlesville 
UNUSUALLY they came up as the first return on my query - when i asked for Lab x Poodle, not Golden or Aussie.

UNUSUALLY they also claim to screen parents as _"free from inherited diseases prior to breeding."_ 
QUOTE, _"Our contract covers your puppy for the first 2 years of their life against defects that *your vet* 
& ours believe will seriously affect the quality of your puppys life."_

Q - how does the breeder know what issues My Vet thinks are 'defects seriously affecting' my dog's life? 
is mind-reading a common skill among Doodle-breeders?

*from their FAQ page:* 
QUOTE, 
_Q: Are doodles good with children?

A: Absolutely, they are wonderful little clowns and will just break [their] hearts to please you! 
They are being utilized as service & therapy dogs due to [their] even temperament & [their] willingness to please... _

to say this is a broad generalization is an understatement. Not all will 'love' children, *nor will all Doodles 
grow-up to be suited as SDs* [working for a disabled handler] *or therapy-dogs*, visiting folks who may be 
in a rehab unit temporarily after an accident, living in assisted living for life, mentally retarded, impulsive, 
physically disabled or emotionally erratic. Implying that they are all simply wonderful from birth is misleading.

QUOTE, 
_Q: What health guarantee do you give with your pups?

A: We offer a unlimited 2 year guarantee. 
We will replace your puppy with another puppy. Then a Limited lifetime. 
After 2 yrs we will replace your dog with a puppy at a substantially discounted rate. 
Are you aware that most genetic problems do not show themselves until after 2 yr old 
we felt that since you are a part of our family that this is the way to go for any guarantee! 
*This guarantee is for genetic/congenital defect that is life threatening...*_

ah! Notice they don't mention *what they screen for:* there's no mention of OFA scores, eye certificates, 
elbow radiographs, blood-work, DNA screening - nothing. THEY ONLY COVER THE RARE EVENT OF A DOG 
WITH A CONGENITAL ISSUE THAT IS LIFE-THREATENING - which of course hip dysplasia is not, nor is blindness 
from PRA, nor is being unable to descend a flight of stairs due to an ununited anconeal process rattling around 
in the elbow-joint, causing severe pain... but it's not fatal. Only crippling. :huh:

and that's just one breeder, chosen at random. There are hundreds in VA, thousands if not millions 
across the USA, all breeding some version of a Poodle-cross with a cute label.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Having come across some wonderful labradoodles on here with equally matching owners and also meeting some out and about too- I'm sure they don't regret what he did.


But the same would be said by any owner of any purebreed or crossbreed or mutt


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Seems things are different in America then, wouldn't know as unlikely to get any dog from the US so never looked into it


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Seems things are different in America then, wouldn't know as unlikely to get any dog
> from the US so never looked into it


really? :huh: no Lab x Poodle or Golden x Poodle UK-breeders claim their pups are all hypoallergenic, 
claim they are all Mensa-material, claim they're all wonderful with kids, adore elderly people & would never 
dream of jumping on them, etc?

somehow i doubt that; i'd bet similar sales-pitches on similar websites are common.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> somehow i doubt that; i'd bet similar sales-pitches on similar websites are common.


Not even looked at your links - I read the article in Readers Digest - and as for the websites - yep - you are not wrong


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Tbh, the only people who seem to be bashing cross breeds on this thread, are cross breed owners, perhaps they've turned to self flagellating?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Seems things are different in America then, wouldn't know as unlikely to get any dog
> from the US so never looked into it


here's a search via Google for "labradoodles for sale in the UK" 
Google

there are ads from Pets4homes, PreLoved, BreedersOnLine.uk, etc; that should give some idea of the sales pitches 
commonly in use, i'd think.

from the first link, page ONE of 17 - 


> Delightful Miniature Labradoodle Puppies
> Wellington, Somerset, UK (11/08/2011)
> Lovely content and healthy litter of pups. Their first-time mum has done a lovely job with them and they are now
> nearly weaned. She is a small pretty yellow labrador bred for good hips and excellent . . . .
> ...


what the H*** is the value of an "excellent pedigree on both parents" when they are of different breeds?

look at how many are F2 [F1 x F1] or F2-backcross [F1 to either parent breed], which only means greater 
assortment & more random outcomes? *the consistency of an F1 hybrid is due to being the product of two 
separate strains, kept individually, which are both predictable & recognizable - that's true if the hybrid 
is ear-corn or a cucumber or a rose or a dog or a horse.* Anglo-Arabs are produced for a particular look, 
size & use, just like warmbloods - crossing draft for size & African or Asian desert-breeds for speed & looks.

if i breed a warmblood to a warmblood, the foal could resemble a heavy draft or an Arab-type, or neither. 
but i certainly wouldn't be likely to get the size, substance & speed that i want for a sports-horse to compete 
in 3-day eventing; i lost the predictability of a hybrid by not choosing to use pure strains as parents.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> somehow i doubt that; i'd bet similar sales-pitches on similar websites are common.


You are not incorrect.



> Stunning Miniature F1 Labradoodle Puppies
> £65O
> 
> I have a gorgeous litter of 8 F1 true miniature labradoodles. Reds, Golden and Blacks, 4 Girls and 4 Boys. Adorable faces and beautiful wavy coats, *bred for their lovely temperaments and low to non moulting coats making them hypoallergenic.* Mother is our gentle black labrador and father is a stud miniature apricot KC registered poodle with a clear eye certificate. They are 7 weeks old and ready for viewing. will be ready for their new homes at around 8 old. Due to the high demand a deposit of £50 will secure pup.Puppies will be flead and wormed wormrd. Thanks





> Labradoodle Puppies
> £595
> 
> labradoodle f1b puppies mother is a minature labradoodle and father is a toy poodle both have none moulting coats i have 3 cream boys, both parents can be viewed all been vet checked ,wormed and flead ready 7 september , for all enquires please contact us
> deposit secures





> Miniature Teddy Bear Labradoodle
> £750.00
> 
> We are now pleased to be taking bookings for our much anticipated litter of miniature teddy bear labradoodles, due on or around the 17th Aug. They will stand at approximately 16 to 18 inches high, *have soft fleecey coats and will shed little or no fur - Ideal for allergy sufferers!* These puppies are bred for looks and good temprement, making them ideal family pets. Dad is a chocolate miniature poodle and mum is our black F1b miniature labradoodle. These puppies will be part house trained and raised around other dogs and household noises. Please book now to avoid dissapointment.
> Prices will range from £650.00 to £750.00. A deposit of £200 will secure.


Its no different in either country.
Granted the pups are very cute. 
I have seen 2 breeders whilst looking on the ad site that I would class as honest which is a good thing.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I mentioned this thread (the rule thread) to Mark a few months ago, because I brought it up and he said "what cross breed rule?".
> 
> I think as long as the discussion is not rude I dont think there's any reason to not allow a discussion.:huh:


I know you put me as a contact, and I can confirm I was never contacted.

It seems as though the ethical breeding of pedigrees is open to scrutiny, yet the ethical breeding of cross breeds isn't, which still seems biased to me.

Those who know me know that I promote ethical breeding across the board, but there is a bias on this forum that makes those with pedigree breeds feel uncomfortable expressing their opinions.


----------



## Guest (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I know you put me as a contact, and I can confirm I was never contacted.
> 
> It seems as though the ethical breeding of pedigrees is open to scrutiny, yet the ethical breeding of cross breeds isn't, which still seems biased to me.
> 
> Those who know me know that I promote ethical breeding across the board, but there is a bias on this forum that makes those with pedigree breeds feel uncomfortable expressing their opinions.


Thing is, Mark said what cross breed rule. I put him to thread and to you, nothing happened. So I am guessing because we can talk freely about pedigree breeding (good and bad) we can do the same about cross breeds.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...I promote ethical breeding across the board...


that's the crux of the issue: 
breeding any dog to any dog - or cat, horse, parrot, etc - has to be done responsibly. 
that means *even in the case of cross-breeding*, both parents should be screened, IMO. 
*P*rogressive *R*etinal *A*trophy occurs in many, many breeds; so do luxating patellae 
& dysplastic hips, hypothyroidism, various skin issues, etc.

there's no excuse for not screening. "I'm giving away the puppies" is just an excuse; *"the litter was an accident" 
is a very GOOD reason for a mismate jab given to the bitch; those pups don't "have to be" born.* 
Carrying an 'accidental' litter to term is not an accident, any more - it's a deliberate *choice*.

if U can't afford a mismate jab, U surely cannot afford to rear a litter properly. :thumbdown:


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I know you put me as a contact, and I can confirm I was never contacted.
> 
> It seems as though the ethical breeding of pedigrees is open to scrutiny, yet the ethical breeding of cross breeds isn't, which still seems biased to me.
> 
> Those who know me know that I promote ethical breeding across the board, but there is a bias on this forum that makes those with pedigree breeds feel uncomfortable expressing their opinions.


HA!!! and absolutely no bias at all that makes us non-pedigree owners feel like second rate dog owners at all? Because it's all in our heads that people say our dogs are unethical yards yadda yadda.

There's son me right sanctimonious shite posted on here at times


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> HA!!! and absolutely no bias at all that makes us non-pedigree owners feel like second rate dog owners at all? Because it's all in our heads that people say our dogs are unethical yards yadda yadda.
> 
> There's son me right sanctimonious shite posted on here at times


To be honest, what a load of ********, second time I've posted this tonight, and I'm disappointed that PF has this sort of bias.


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> To be honest, what a load of ********, second time I've posted this tonight, and I'm disappointed that PF has this sort of bias.


PF has no bias as far as I can see, just people with differences of opinions, that happen in my case not to agree with yours, but it gets right up my nose when everyone starts crying about how cross breeds can't be discussed or debated.

Every thread on unethical breeding is tipped back towards cross breeds... How they have no rea, purpose etc etc... And don't te,k me this thread wasn't started as an I TOLD YOU SO to the doodle owners.

If you ask me the more I read the more I think pedigree owners get oissed at crossbreeds is because people are choosing them over their dogs


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> PF has no bias as far as I can see, just people with differences of opinions, that happen in my case not to agree with yours, but it gets right up my nose when everyone starts crying about how cross breeds can't be discussed or debated.
> 
> Every thread on unethical breeding is tipped back towards cross breeds... How they have no rea, purpose etc etc... And don't te,k me this thread wasn't started as an I TOLD YOU SO to the doodle owners.
> 
> If you ask me the more I read the more I think pedigree owners get oissed at crossbreeds is because people are choosing them over their dogs


Sorry, but I can't agree at all. I don't know where you've gained this opinion from if it's off here, then I don't know how because there's a broad range of opinions from those who don't agree at all, to those who do, but want to see the ethical side of cross breeding promoted.

The thing that worries me, is that the ban on discussing cross breeds, allows the promotion of unethical breeding, as I've witnessed on the forum I joined (albeit briefly) to prevail. Health testing isn't just for pedigrees, it's for all, as are other breeding considerations. However, us pedigree owners are considered snobs, with our health tests and breed types......


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Sorry, but I can't agree at all. I don't know where you've gained this opinion from if it's off here, then I don't know how because there's a broad range of opinions from those who don't agree at all, to those who do, but want to see the ethical side of cross breeding promoted.
> 
> The thing that worries me, is that the ban on discussing cross breeds, allows the promotion of unethical breeding, as I've witnessed on the forum I joined (albeit briefly) to prevail. Health testing isn't just for pedigrees, it's for all, as are other breeding considerations. However, us pedigree owners are considered snobs, with our health tests and breed types......


Wasn't aware there was a ban about discussing cross breeds, just being rude about them.

So crosses are unethically bred then, in your opinion, if banning talking about them promotes unethical breeding...

Unethical breeders will breed unethically regardless of what you or any other person says to them on the Internet. A load of people on the other end of a key board ain't gonna stop e m


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Wasn't aware there was a ban about discussing cross breeds, just being rude about them.
> 
> So crosses are unethically bred then, in your opinion, if banning talking about them promotes unethical breeding...
> 
> Unethical breeders will breed unethically regardless of what you or any other person says to them on the Internet. A load of people on the other end of a key board ain't gonna stop e m


You're way behind, there's a ban about talking about cross breeds, full stop. So, I could say, for arguments sake, I have a chavapoop, it's 6.5 weeks old, and to try and ascertain the breeding, would break forum rules. However, if someone posted, I have a Lab pup, 7 weeks of age, from ShCh breeding, any criticism would be entirely allowed.

Such is life


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Such is life


Aye, it's a bitch ain't it.

P.s what's a chavapoop?


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> that's the crux of the issue:
> breeding any dog to any dog - or cat, horse, parrot, etc - has to be done responsibly.
> that means *even in the case of cross-breeding*, both parents should be screened, IMO.
> *P*rogressive *R*etinal *A*trophy occurs in many, many breeds; so do luxating patellae
> & dysplastic hips, hypothyroidism, various skin issues, etc.


"We eliminate the risk by ensuring that at least one parent is Optigen Class A as BOTH parents need to be recessive or affected to produce a pup which will go blind. All our studs are Class A so its genetically impossible. It is vital that you ensure your breeder has undertaken Optigen screening as they hold the patent for prcd testing.

In addition to optigen testing we undertake the traditional CERF eye screening however this result is limited to whether the parent is affected, not whether they hold the recessive gene for an eye problem."

"There are 2 methods of hip testing available - the kennel club BVA traditional scheme which is a number out of a possible score of 106. A good average score is approximately 16 at present. The lower the score the better. The total is broken down on the scoresheet for example a score of 5/5 (left hip/right hip) would be a total of 10. Ideally the faults would be evenly distributed between the hips and no individual fault exceeding 3 on a specific part of the hip. A score of 9/9 would be less alarming than 17/1 though both total 18.

Pennhip program is growing in popularity internationally as its more comprehensive - 3 x-rays are taken rather than 1 by the vet. Also the test can be performed earlier - from 16 weeks as opposed to 12 month under the BVA scheme. Pennhip also informs breeders whether the dog has DJD. 0.7 is the higher risk score, with 0.3-0.4 being excellent, 0.55 being good. The lower the score the better.

All our breeding dogs are hip tested either with BVA or Pennhip or both. "


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Tbh, the only people who seem to be bashing cross breeds on this thread, are cross breed owners, perhaps they've turned to self flagellating?


No way would I ever inflict pain on myself.

Now if I could put on some thigh length boots and have a whip- I most certainly could become Miss oodlewhiplash and give people a thrashing :devil: :ciappa:


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> No way would I ever inflict pain on myself.
> 
> Now if I could put on some thigh length boots and have a whip- I most certainly could become Miss oodlewhiplash and give people a thrashing :devil: :ciappa:


My other half has just read that... He's gotten a bit to excited!! :smilewinkgrin:


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I have a chavapoop


Ha Ha LOL


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Aye, it's a bitch ain't it.
> 
> P.s what's a chavapoop?


Whatever you want it to be, name your price 



Elmo the Bear said:


> "We eliminate the risk by ensuring that at least one parent is Optigen Class A as BOTH parents need to be recessive or affected to produce a pup which will go blind. All our studs are Class A so its genetically impossible. It is vital that you ensure your breeder has undertaken Optigen screening as they hold the patent for prcd testing.
> 
> In addition to optigen testing we undertake the traditional CERF eye screening however this result is limited to whether the parent is affected, not whether they hold the recessive gene for an eye problem."
> 
> ...


So, you can only ever produce at worst, carriers, what happens from there? Also, the Penhipp isn't adopted in the UK, so, what use is it? Why use a system that doesn't contribute towards a database of health test results?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Whatever you want it to be, name your price


I don't want it to be anything, wanted you to explain what you meant.

My guess is a not so thinly veiled dig... And you wonder why it gets people's backs up? Summat to say, spill. Never know, might untwist your knickers.

P.s. If talking about cross breeds is COMPLETELY banned, why is this thread still going?

Elmor is right, same ****, different thread!


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> My other half has just read that... He's gotten a bit to excited!! :smilewinkgrin:


Well you know what to do then


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I don't want it to be anything, wanted you to explain what you meant.
> 
> My guess is a not so thinly veiled dig... And you wonder why it gets people's backs up? Summat to say, spill. Never know, might untwist your knickers.
> 
> ...


Chuff, so thinly brainwashed!

Talking about cross breeds is so thinly veiled because a few people who happen to own cross breeds, are friends of the forum owners, is that so hard to understand?

And hun, grow a pair, in the meantime, may help with the discussion stuff


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Chuff, so thinly brainwashed!
> 
> Talking about cross breeds is so thinly veiled because a few people who happen to own cross breeds, are friends of the forum owners, is that so hard to understand?
> 
> And hun, grow a pair, in the meantime, may help with the discussion stuff


Who's brainwashed? Im not the one making thinly veiled digs about other people's choice if pet.

And no, it's Not hard to understand, just never knew it. If it's such a taboo subject, why is the Labradoodle thread still going? I'd have thought the way you are gong on the PF nazis would have removed it?

as for growing a pair...pair of what? Tits? Plenty of then on here already ta!! Don't need my ample sized Double Ds entering into the equation.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Well you know what to do then


He is injured at mo! hmy:


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Horse and Hound said:


> If you ask me the more I read the more I think pedigree owners get oissed at crossbreeds is because people are choosing them over their dogs


:lol: - that would be hilarious if I didn't know you were serious

I am trying to think of an appropriate response :lol: do you seriously think that responsible hobby breeders, taking a litter when they want a pup to show / work and continue their lines - have even the remotest hope of fulfilling the puppy enquiries they get, never mind worrying about the impact cross-breeders have 

The pups I've produced and sold during the last 4 years are just 0.01% of my own breed registered during the same period and 0.002% of all pedigree dogs registered and I know many who have produced even fewer pups over longer periods - very small fish in VERY large ponds.

I've got about 10 enquiries sitting in my inbox for responsibly bred Lab pups - and I have nowhere to send them - because there are so few around now - something which across all breeds has been a cause for concern as many breeders pull back the reins and breed even fewer pups.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Who's brainwashed? Im not the one making thinly veiled digs about other people's choice if pet.
> 
> And no, it's Not hard to understand, just never knew it. If it's such a taboo subject, why is the Labradoodle thread still going? I'd have thought the way you are gong on the PF nazis would have removed it?
> 
> as for growing a pair...pair of what? Tits? Plenty of then on here already ta!! Don't need my ample sized Double Ds entering into the equation.


Me, I'm brainwashed, and since us pedigree folk are so unethical, prove me wrong, what' health tests are behind your dogs? Go on, prove me wrong


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

swarthy said:


> The pups I've produced and sold during the last 4 years are just 0.01% of my own breed registered during the same period and 0.002% of all pedigree dogs registered and I know many who have produced even fewer pups over longer periods - very small fish in VERY large ponds.
> 
> I've got about 10 enquiries sitting in my inbox for responsibly bred Lab pups - and I have nowhere to send them - because there are so few around now - something which across all breeds has been a cause for concern as many breeders pull back the reins and breed even fewer pups.


I stand corrected...


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> Im not the one making thinly veiled digs about other people's choice if pet.


I haven't seen anyone have a dig about other people's choice of pets, thinly veiled or not! A jest about the ridiculous names they get called maybe, but never at people's pets.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> I stand corrected...


So, health tests? Or is that only important for pedigrees?


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Me, I'm brainwashed, and since us pedigree folk are so unethical, prove me wrong, what' health tests are behind your dogs? Go on, prove me wrong


Where have I said you "pedigree folk" (nice continuation of the divide btw...lovely stuff....) are unethical?  I've never said anything of the sort. Suggesting someone is unethical because of the type of dogs the breed is ludicrous.

I've openly said before Roos dad isn't health tested. He is a non KC registed JRT. I had no idea about any of it before I bought him, it's only since coming on here learnt about it, which is something I've always said, education is the way forward. His mum was apparently hip scored prior to her first litter, although I'm led to believe it's not something ppl regularly do on westies, not sure how true that is, she was free from CMO and perthes, and her eyes were apparently tested every year up until she had Roo's litter. As he was her second and last litter before being spade, I've never dug into it as I only found out about this after I'd bought him when I saw his breeder a few months after.

As for Harvey, none whatsoever I imagine. He is a rescue.


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So, health tests? Or is that only important for pedigrees?


See above response...


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

rocco33 said:


> I haven't seen anyone have a dig about other people's choice of pets, thinly veiled or not! A jest about the ridiculous names they get called maybe, but never at people's pets.


Course not....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Horse and Hound said:


> Every thread on unethical breeding is tipped back towards cross breeds.


horse-*%$#. *i have started threads about ETHICAL breeding & the imperative to screen both 
prospective parents - without a single peep about crossbreeds.* 
i have posted links to the AVAR list of heritable conditions in *purebreds* a dozen times or more. 
i finally copied the entire thing, as it's rapidly vanishing from the Web & there is nothing to take its place. 


Horse and Hound said:


> ...don't [*tell*? presumably] me this thread wasn't started as an I TOLD YOU SO to the doodle owners.


_*> I <* started it. :nono: please don't try to lay YOUR motives on MY intentions. _

this thread has ZIPPO to do with doodle-OWNERS & everything to do with the original prize-winner 
at the county fair, the thoughtless ding who started the designer-dog nonsense of _'choose one 
from column-A & one from column-B, & blend'._

not only is that genetically simplistic, but it often doesn't work - U can't just choose a trait & assume 
that it will be shown by the progeny; Golden-crosses are often BLACK, not BLONDE. U have to know 
something about genetics & heritability to have any good approximation of what might result.


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> the thoughtless ding who started the designer-dog nonsense of _'choose one
> from column-A & one from column-B, & blend'.
> 
> not only is that genetically simplistic, but it often doesn't work - U can't just choose a trait & assume
> ...


_

Sorry, thought with an emotive title like the thread had and your opinions above it was an "I told you so" to doodle owners or other so called designer breed owners. _


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> . . . .this thread has ZIPPO to do with doodle-OWNERS & everything to do with the original prize-winner
> at the county fair, the thoughtless ding who started the designer-dog nonsense of _'choose one
> from column-A & one from column-B, & blend'._


Well, except for that Wally Conran is giving himself too much credit if he believes he was the one to start the 'designer dog nonsense' . . . and so is this thread to spread the idea that this is the truth.

We had small breed designer dogs with portmanteau names from the 50s through the 60s and onwards, and we had Wallace Havens amongst others through the 80s in North America experimenting with these 'blends' in commercial kennels.

CC


----------



## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

Dudes and dudettes, my painkilleers have kicked in for the sinuses so off for some kip.

Pleasure doing debate with you all, as ever, Apologies for any offence and remark that's overstepped the line...

Siunus issues plus an I'll OH don't mix.


----------



## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> Well, except for that Wally Conran is giving himself too much credit if he believes he was the one to start the 'designer dog nonsense' . . . and so is this thread to spread the idea that this is the truth.
> 
> We had small breed designer dogs with portmanteau names from the 50s through the 60s and onwards, and we had Wallace Havens amongst others through the 80s in North America experimenting with these 'blends' in commercial kennels.
> 
> CC


Yes and I have read on the internet that cockapoos were bred since the 50/60's in America- so nothing to do with Wally.


----------



## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> . . . .this thread has ZIPPO to do with doodle-OWNERS & everything to do with the original prize-winner
> at the county fair, the thoughtless ding who started the designer-dog nonsense of _'choose one
> from column-A & one from column-B, & blend'._


Well, except for that Wally Conran is giving himself too much credit if he believes he was the one to start the 'designer dog nonsense' . . . and so is this thread to spread the idea that this is the truth.

We had small breed designer dogs with portmanteau names from the 50s through the 60s and onwards, and we had Wallace Havens amongst others through the 80s in North America experimenting with these 'blends' in commercial kennels.

IMHO (and others) the timing was not a coincidense that this was happening in two different areas of the world . . . it was a reflection of what was wanted or what was losing value to the public eye . . . the purebred dog.

If one wants to remember back, this was a time when the purebred dog and the value of AKC registration was often making headlines, and in a negative way. Remember Time's 1994 article 'A Terrible Beauty'?

This piece pointing to pedigree problems was produced and shown in 1985 - 




This was a time when the anti breeder AR message was also taking hold in the USA.

As an aside, as it was mentioned that the USA and the UK are different, 87% of American dogs are not registered with the AKC - only 13% are. There are some registered with other registries. In Canada the % with the CKC is lower than that even - lots of mutts here as, to my long memory, the show scene has never taken hold in any places other than the most urban. I went to one dog show as a child, and that was in Toronto when visiting family. For the next thirty years, as I lived on the prairies, I never knew a single person who went to one, or knew one was taking place to talk of it. I would suggest one in one hundred of my friends/acquaintances (even the dog loving ones) have ever gone to a dog show, if that. Some don't know they even exist. As that is the method of promotion of purebred dogs, I believe that says something.

IF that is the goal, it has proven difficult to push customers towards buying from a completely foreign idea of an 'ethical breeders' and sell the purebred and titled and pedigreed notion when that is a world many have no clue of, that we have little/no access to, and alternately, have had bad experiences with - especially for those of us who live rurally in North America.

I find it a no brainer that designer dogs became popular in that environment. My experiences with a Maltipoo, Terripoo, a Papipom and multiple Cockapoos long before the 1980s tells me it would have happened with or without Wally Conran.

A Terrible Beauty - TIME

Somehow this glitched and posted half way through - oh well. 

CC


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> really? :huh: no Lab x Poodle or Golden x Poodle UK-breeders claim their pups are all hypoallergenic, claim they are all Mensa-material, claim they're all wonderful with kids, adore elderly people & would never dream of jumping on them, etc? somehow i doubt that; i'd bet similar sales-pitches on similar websites are common.


Quite probably, but you can prove most theories by being selective - I personally would not consider yahoo forums as research and would be unlikely to buy from pets4homes and the likes. Here is a small selection taken from various uk breeders websites:

Prospective owners of Labradoodles for whom asthma or other allergies are a factor should ensure they read the material on this and other forums regarding suitability of Labradoodles in these circumstances.

While some Labradoodles possess characteristics which present no problems for people with allergy sensitivities, there are a great many that are dangerously unsuitable. Allergic reactions can result from a number of doggy factors - the coat, the saliva, dander (dried skin and hair) etc. Also be aware the coat types can vary within the same litter and may change as the dog matures. There are many other non-shedding established dog breeds including Wheaten Terriers, Schnauzers, Airedales and Poodles that are more consistently tolerable to people with pet allergies.

Please be very cautious of claims by breeders of allergy-friendliness in their dogs - you will find guidelines on this site on how to choose from one of the many reputable breeders rather one of the few who are out to exploit you.

As with all puppies of any breed, its very important that the parents have a great way about them and have a kind nature. As well as the relevant health testes for there individual breeds.
Golden Retrievers should be both Hipscored and eye tested
Standard poodles again should be both hip and eye tested.
Even though its a new gene pool altogether from 2 different breeds. If the breeds are prone to any health issues parents should be tested if they are to bred. I do go on about health testing but its so important and easy to do. Various health testing is developing all the time and with DNA type testing becoming available not only can we check that a dog does not have a 
certain disease the breed is prone to but we can also make sure the don't even carry the gene. Meaning there is no chance any offspring they produce will ever suffer from these problems which i think is an amazing development. Its much more expensive than the basic tests but i truly feel its the way forward. We have started our DNA testing late 2009 and hope to complete the testing of all our dogs by the end of 2011.

BACKGROUND 
The Goldendoodle, like the Labradoodle and many other Poodle cross breeds, was bred to be a very low shedding assistance dog for individuals who need such a dog, but who suffer from allergies to shedding hair or have other problems with excessive shedding. However, not all Goldendoodles will exhibit the "hypoallergenic" coat style and saliva of the poodle since, as a mixed breed dog, its traits cannot be accurately predicted. While some Goldendoodles are low-shedding, many others shed a small amount and still others shed as much as a Golden Retriever. While some breeders claim that the Goldendoodle is a hypoallergenic canine, allergists believe that there is no such thing as a hypoallergenic animal. There have been no studies to date verifying whether any canine is completely hypoallergenic.

BREED STATUS
The Goldendoodle is not a purebred; rather, it is a specific type of mixed-breed dog or crossbreed. As such, it is not accepted for registration by mainstream registries of purebred dogs such as the American Kennel Club or United Kennel Club. A true club will only register dogs with a provable pedigree.

Goldendoodles are not a breed to be left alone for long periods, they crave companionship.

Grooming wise, it can depend on each individual coat. Some goldendoodles have tight curls which will need regular trimming to keep it neat and tidy. Others have long soft wavy tendrils which look best with a brush several times a week. It is not possible for breeders to state that their puppies will have non-shedding coats as this is often not the case. However by breeding carefully this can be kept to a minimum.

Prospective owners of a goldendoodle should always ensure that the parents of new puppies have had the relevant health checks i.e. hip and elbow scores and eye examination. Whilst it does not absolutely ensure that their offspring will have no problems in the future, it goes a long way to alleviating health issues and puppies should certainly not be bought from breeders who have not undergone the tests. It is important that both the dam and sire have been tested and paperwork should be produced to substantiate this.

Hip-Scores
Why are they important?
Hip dysplasia is a crippling disease that can occur at a very young age. Any responsible breeder would do their upmost to prevent this happening to any of the puppies they had bred.

Hip scoring is done when the dog is about one year old. An x-ray is taken of the pelvis and sent to the BVA (British Veterinary Association) who measure various angles and give scores on these angles for both the right and left hip, these are then added together to give a hip-score. An average for the breed is calculated after a minimum of ten dogs of that particular breed having been hip-scored. For example the average for the Golden Retriever is 19 and the Standard Poodle is 15. Breeders wishing to reduce the risk of hip dysplasia should only breed from dogs with scores below the average. The theory being that breeding from dogs with healthy hips is more likely to produce offspring with healthy hips.
Eye testing
Is it necessary?
Both Golden Retrievers and Standard Poodles can suffer from various inherited eye disorders. It is important to only breed from dogs that have been tested clear. Eye testing should be carried out annually; some disorders are late onset and may not develop until the dog is maybe three or four years old or possibly older.

Allergies
Is it true that Goldendoodles are suitable for people with allergies?
I have placed Goldendendoodles into families with allergies with success however, allergies differ from person to person and there are no guarantees. See also Shedding below.

Shedding
Is it true that Goldendoodles do not shed?
In my experience the Goldendoodles are very low shedding. From my own Goldendoodle I find the odd bit of fluff on the floor, nothing like my Retrievers who shed constantly in copious amounts!!

Please be aware low to non shedding coats are high maintenance. Undercoat/wool is still produced and needs to be groomed out to prevent the coat becoming matted. Between the age of about eight and eighteen months the coat needs really regular, thorough grooming. This is the time the adult coat is coming through. Many owners find it easier to have their Goldendoodle trimmed by a professional groomer. I scissor my Goldendoodle down to a couple of inches all over. This is much easier to cope with when hes swimming and running in the woods on a daily basis, however I think they look stunning when in full coat!

Obviously the above are selective as its to show that some breeders do indeed health test, don't make false allergy claims etc etc but I am not stating that all breeders do.

Moving on a little - whats the definition of a hobby breeder as compared to a back yard breeder? Seen both mentioned on this thread and wanted to clarify the difference as one is obviously seen to be bad, the other isn't? I honestly don't know hence the question


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

jo5 said:


> Lesson learned, if you want a quality dog with as few health problems as is possible go to a respected ethical breeder, if you want a cross breed for a companion go to a rescue, there are hundreds there just as deserving. I see no need to go making up new 'breeds' we have plenty of diversity already:smile5:


Missed this yesterday - see there are the assumptions that annoy so much as you have made various points that could easily insult (not me personally as I don't really care what other peoples think about my choices!)

_if you want a quality dog with as few health problems as is possible go to a respected ethical breeder, if you want a cross breed for a companion go to a rescue_ So a) you can't get a cross breed bred ethically in your view? b) If you want a crossbreed you should go to a rescue in your view - why? There are hundreds of pedigrees in rescue, did you get yours from a rescue if not why not?

_I see no need to go making up new 'breeds' we have plenty of diversity already_ Agreed - you have plenty of diversity in pedigree breeds but what difference does that make if you don't want a pedigree?


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## Horse and Hound (May 12, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> If you want a crossbreed you should go to a rescue in your view - why? There are hundreds of pedigrees in rescue, did you get yours from a rescue if not why not?


We actually tried a rescue before we got Rupert and gave up as we got knocked back too many times, and some of them were quite rude.

However, after getting Roo and looking for another dog, we discovered that rescues vary from rescue to rescue and found a local one much more willing to give us the time of day.

But a rescue dog doesn't always suit everyone either. People with children are often warey about a dog's background, and to be fair I don't think this is unreasonable.

But the statement above hacks me off, you're right, because there are plenty of dogs, full stop, in rescues, be they croesses or pedigrees. If you're going to ask someone who wants a cross why they don't rescue, I'd ask and direct the same question to someone with a pedigree.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I love Labradoodles and Goldendoodles and notice in this months Dogs Today mag they have been added to list of breeds so hopefully they'll be a recognised breed. I'd like one one day, I think the ones I have seen have been wonderful dogs, there's a marathon trainer round here with a Labradoodle and he trains with his dog off lead, such a fit pair they are! 

The worst thing about the invention of this dog is all the other idiots who jumped on the crossing two breeds bandwagon and decided to give ridiculous names to any crosses they churned out, some of which would surely have health implications as the two breeds are so diverse.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

Horse and Hound said:


> But the statement above hacks me off, you're right, because there are plenty of dogs, full stop, in rescues, be they croesses or pedigrees. If you're going to ask someone who wants a cross why they don't rescue, I'd ask and direct the same question to someone with a pedigree.


Well...
- people buy Pedigree dogs to show or work
- the 'pedigrees' in rescues aren't necessarily pedigrees, they're just not mongrels
- some people buying a puppy want to go to as best a breeder as possible, perhaps even a crufts winner
- the dam and sire are health tested 
- people want to support ethical breeders


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I love Labradoodles and Goldendoodles and notice in this months Dogs Today mag they have been added to list of breeds so hopefully they'll be a recognised breed.


Dogs today is run by Jemima harrison's best friend who spends most of her time yapping on about how unhealthy pedigree's are. I dont really believe anything thats posted in Dogs today after recent events.

As far as I am aware last time I spoke with the kennel club about it they had no intentions of making any doodles/poo's a recognized breed. I am not sure if this still stands.

Sorry about my mini rant about JH...:blush2:


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I think Dogs Today is one of the best doggie mags and i'm not biased about who writes in it as Vic Stilwell and others also play their part in that mag too. 

My good friend Noel Fitzpatrick has also been in it a few times and it's great to see other opinions and advanced technologies in print regardless of whether I like certain people or not. 
I'm actually looking forward to PDE part 2 to see how JH has been threatened as she has proof to air in the next prog and to see also if this time breeders will actually take part instead of shying away only to slate the programme off on forums. Lets hear what breeders have to say on camera, that way there will be a more even sided view but if they choose once again to walk away and use abusive language it will make people suspicious of Pedigree dogs/breeders unfortunately.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Missed this yesterday - see there are the assumptions that annoy so much as you have made various points that could easily insult (not me personally as I don't really care what other peoples think about my choices!)
> 
> _if you want a quality dog with as few health problems as is possible go to a respected ethical breeder, if you want a cross breed for a companion go to a rescue_ So a) you can't get a cross breed bred ethically in your view? b) If you want a crossbreed you should go to a rescue in your view - why? There are hundreds of pedigrees in rescue, did you get yours from a rescue if not why not?
> 
> _I see no need to go making up new 'breeds' we have plenty of diversity already_ Agreed - you have plenty of diversity in pedigree breeds but what difference does that make if you don't want a pedigree?


I did say I was not going to comment anymore on this thread for fear of being banned for being 'disrespectful to cross breeds' I stand by my 'assumptions' they are mine and I will keep them thankyou
I didn't get mine from a rescue for 2 reasons \firstly I was knocked back by several as I said in another thread as I have children under 5 , also because when we had just lost our Cavie to the devastating SM  We were Dogless and most of the dogs we were interested in needed to be homed with an existing dog. 
Secondly we wanted to Show as I did as a child and my son who has ADD does Junior Handling it helps him a lot. So I found the best breeder I could as I looked for Health tests etc I make no aplogies for that either.
I keep harping on about Health Testing as My beloved Cavie died from the most evil disease which could have been prevented (if Health testing was widely done back then , which it wasn't) The Kennel Club has its flaws but its learning from mistakes made and that is why you hear people harping on about Health Testing , if a Dog cannot be registered with the Kennel club it has no protection from inbreeding, overbreeding, etc etc. There are rules and regs before a Pup can be registered , it doesn't stop unscrupulous breeders but it gives some protection, what protection do the deliberately cross bred pups have. 
My main concern is for the dogs always has been always will be , enough said.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Malmum said:


> I think Dogs Today is one of the best doggie mags and i'm not biased about who writes in it as Vic Stilwell and others also play their part in that mag too.
> 
> My good friend *Noel Fitzpatrick* has also been in it a few times and it's great to see other opinions and advanced technologies in print regardless of whether I like certain people or not.
> I'm actually looking forward to PDE part 2 to see how JH has been threatened as she has proof to air in the next prog and to see also if this time breeders will actually take part instead of shying away only to slate the programme off on forums. Lets hear what breeders have to say on camera, that way there will be a more even sided view but if they choose once again to walk away and use abusive language it will make people suspicious of Pedigree dogs/breeders unfortunately.


Noel's our hero ...two dogs broke.... two dogs fixed ... top bloke 

Dog's Today is not liked by the pedigree people as it doesn't tow the line and will report all aspects, particularly appealing to the majority of dog owners who aren't part of the self appointed "dog establishment". There's room for everyone, shame the pedigree gang didn't use the opportunity to do the right thing.. it would have been a great chance for them to show the world their main concern was canine health but (as you say) they just stood back, said it was all a pack of lies and then threw stones.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Malmum said:


> I think Dogs Today is one of the best doggie mags and i'm not biased about who writes in it as Vic Stilwell and others also play their part in that mag too.
> 
> My good friend Noel Fitzpatrick has also been in it a few times and it's great to see other opinions and advanced technologies in print regardless of whether I like certain people or not.
> I'm actually looking forward to PDE part 2 to see how JH has been threatened as she has proof to air in the next prog and to see also if this time breeders will actually take part instead of shying away only to slate the programme off on forums. Lets hear what breeders have to say on camera, that way there will be a more even sided view but if they choose once again to walk away and use abusive language it will make people suspicious of Pedigree dogs/breeders unfortunately.


I too was disgusted by the PDE it is actually how I discovered that my Cavie had SM, my Vet was actually treating her for something else? Anyway the whole thing disgusted me how they were showing and winning with dogs who were affected . However a lot has been done since that program and I for one speaking as a Pedigree Dog owner was glad the programme was aired, much has been done since and continues to be done. I look forward to the next program however I do believe that the program makers will want to revel in controversy rather than state what has improved, I do hope not.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

jo5 said:


> , if a Dog cannot be registered with the Kennel club it has no protection from inbreeding, overbreeding, etc etc. .


This isn't me trying to be a smart-arse (for a change) but there is nothing on the litter registration form that requires any of the information to stop inbreeding. How does registering a dog with the KC prevent it?


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Malmum said:


> I think Dogs Today is one of the best doggie mags and i'm not biased about who writes in it as Vic Stilwell and others also play their part in that mag too.
> 
> My good friend Noel Fitzpatrick has also been in it a few times and it's great to see other opinions and advanced technologies in print regardless of whether I like certain people or not.
> I'm actually looking forward to PDE part 2 to see how JH has been threatened as she has proof to air in the next prog and to see also if this time breeders will actually take part instead of shying away only to slate the programme off on forums. Lets hear what breeders have to say on camera, that way there will be a more even sided view but if they choose once again to walk away and use abusive language it will make people suspicious of Pedigree dogs/breeders unfortunately.


i think you'll find good reputable breeders would be queueing up to air their veiwes on this programme not shy away. lets hope its not one sided with convenient filming this time.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> This isn't me trying to be a smart-arse (for a change) but there is nothing on the litter registration form that requires any of the information to stop inbreeding. How does registering a dog with the KC prevent it?


Because you can't register a pup whose Parents were siblings or Mum and son or mum and father etc, you can't register a Pup from a Dam over 8 yrs(I believe this is to be lowered too?) or who has had more than 6 litters (soon to become 4) . These are safeguards not a cast Iron way of preventing misuse but a def start , See here

FAQs - Puppy Litter Registration - The Kennel Club
This tells you what you need to know


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

jo5 said:


> Because you can't register a pup whose Parents were siblings or Mum and son or mum and father etc, you can't register a Pup from a Dam over 6 yrs or who has had more than 6 litters (soon to become 4) . These are safeguards not a cast Iron way of preventing misuse but a def start , See here
> 
> FAQs - Puppy Litter Registration - The Kennel Club
> This tells you what you need to know


Thank you for this:

"Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons" - there are not scientific reasons to do this??... whose welfare?

You could still have grandfather - grand-daughter etc.??


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I never saw the first programme but at least it has got people talking and raising awareness and has got the KC to review some of the breed standards for some of the breeds.

I would like to see an unbiased programme though that has factual evidence so that it is taken seriously by all - maybe some secret filming as well of going to certain breeders posing as customers to see how the their set up works etc.... and how their breeding practices are and how they deal with puppy buyer questions etc....


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

dexter said:


> i think you'll find good reputable breeders would be queueing up to air their veiwes on this programme not shy away. lets hope its not one sided with convenient filming this time.


Exactly. The reason so many breeders are against PDE2 is that the last one was so misleading and one sided.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Thank you for this:
> 
> "Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons" - there are not scientific reasons to do this??
> 
> You could still have grandfather - grand-daughter etc.??


Yes you could but the ramifications are much less and you will not find many Ethical breeders who will do that anyway although there would be nothing stopping them. 
You will also see that it limits litter numbers, the amountb of litters any Bitch can have in a year, how old she is before being mated and the upper age limit.
All of these things are NOT regulated when breeding outside of the KC rules. So all the above could apply and who would know, as I said its not perfect but it does offer some protection, what protection is there for non KC reg pups, an Ethical Cross Breeder can never be totally ethical as she cannot endorse her Pups from being Bred further, as some see it as a lucrative industry it leaves the Pups that are Bred open to missuse


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Thank you for this:
> 
> "Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons" - there are not scientific reasons to do this??
> 
> You could still have grandfather - grand-daughter etc.??


Yes they still can I believe.

Also unless DNA is done how do they know that the offspring being registered is actually the litter from that sire or that dam?

I mean you say this Dam had this litter -so they take you on your word. As far as I am aware they don't need anything else????


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Malmum said:


> I love Labradoodles and Goldendoodles and notice in this months Dogs Today mag they have been added to list of breeds so hopefully they'll be a recognised breed.


To become a recognised breed then they will need to provide the KC with pedigrees from within a closed registry. One of the attractions of doodles is that they are crossbred or at least no further than F2 or 3. Acceptance by the KC would mean they would have to lose that diversity. I think they should just stay as they are simply as a type.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Thank you for this:
> 
> "Offspring of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstance, for scientifically proven welfare reasons" - there are not scientific reasons to do this??... whose welfare?
> 
> You could still have grandfather - grand-daughter etc.??


The KC may accept or reject inbred litters at their discretion.
I dont agree with the rule however its no different than a non registered litter (pedigree or cross) were inbred litters happen but no one but the breeder knows because they are not registered.

The reason I like the KC is because you are given a clear history of the dog, with non-registered dogs there could be 100's of "fuzzy winkles" at least with the KC there is a set name which means you can trace it. Also that the litters are limited meaning that poor bitches are not breeding god knows how many times.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

jo5 said:


> I didn't get mine from a rescue for 2 reasons \firstly I was knocked back by several as I said in another thread as I have children under 5 , also because when we had just lost our Cavie to the devastating SM  We were Dogless and most of the dogs we were interested in needed to be homed with an existing dog.
> Secondly we wanted to Show as I did as a child and my son who has ADD does Junior Handling it helps him a lot. So I found the best breeder I could as I looked for Health tests etc I make no aplogies for that either. I keep harping on about Health Testing as My beloved Cavie died from the most evil disease which could have been prevented (if Health testing was widely done back then , which it wasn't) The Kennel Club has its flaws but its learning from mistakes made and that is why you hear people harping on about Health Testing , if a Dog cannot be registered with the Kennel club it has no protection from inbreeding, overbreeding, etc etc. There are rules and regs before a Pup can be registered , it doesn't stop unscrupulous breeders but it gives some protection, what protection do the deliberately cross bred pups have.
> My main concern is for the dogs always has been always will be , enough said.


Quite so - you should neither have to explain or apologise for your choices but it was you who said if you want a cross breed go to a rescue  if it is ok for you to make such a statement then should be no problem me asking the same question?

Re comment that if a dog is not registered with the KC no protection from inbreeding hmy: choked on my lunch at that, who has condoned inbreeding for many years and still does? A cross is hardly likely to be inbred anyway as pretty doubtful a golden retriever and a poodle would share the same parentage. As to improvements made now, its only close matings they will not register, my idea of close & theirs differ.

I had a KC registered pedigree, all the relevant tests I was naive I thought all that meant a better quality/better bred/healthier dog but hip & eye tests don't tell you it will get a hideous immune disease before 2 years of age and die of cancer at 5. Yes I do agree with tests but if you go on about them being the be all & end all it leads to false expectations of a healthy dog yes hips & eyes should be ok but thats all you know.

Always lots & lots of talk about breeding ethics & testing but little about in-breeding and the consequences. Everyone's views are different and my personal one is that in-breeding is not ethical. My dog wasn't massively in-bred but enough. I looked at the same breed last year before I bought a crossbreed, nothing much seemed to have changed - top breeder did all the right things what you would class as ethical, all looked good till I found out the dam's parents were grandaughter/grandfather. I only found that out by chance, if its such an ok thing then why can't breeders be upfront about it & explain it all, why hide it and call it line breeding? Call it what you like, justify away but its still inbreeding and I was not prepared to risk that again.

I am not anti pedigree one bit, I love dogs of all sorts I just don't personally want one that has been in-bred and couldn't find one that wasn't. I am not anti-pedigree breeders either even if they still do close family matings, its their choice and presume would be doing so for what they think is a good reason - doesn't mean I have to either agree or buy one though


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> The KC may accept or reject inbred litters at their discretion.
> I dont agree with the rule however its no different than a non registered litter (pedigree or cross) were inbred litters happen but no one but the breeder knows because they are not registered.
> 
> The reason I like the KC is because you are given a clear history of the dog, with non-registered dogs there could be 100's of "fuzzy winkles" at least with the KC there is a set name which means you can trace it. Also that the litters are limited meaning that poor bitches are not breeding god knows how many times.


I actually would like to see some sort of registry for crossbreeds ( well the established crossbreeds to start off with) although some will have the dogs parents etc... history to look back on.

Although at present most people ( not all) seem to go for a F1 cross with no intention of breeding as they are bought to be a pet only. So if their parents are KC registered then they can still find that info.

Although there are people that do go on to do F2's etc....

I also want limits of amount of litters, frequency of litters and also ages of dams.

Just because people own crossbreeds don't think they that don't share similar views to Pedigree owners because a lot of the time we are all singing from the same song sheet.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

I agree there is a fine line between inbreeding and line Breeding, my dogs are both pedigrees and they have some close matings back 5 generations ago but nothing since. Agree with the KC rules or disagree with them makes no odds to me but at least a Dog is traceble (whether that be good breeding or bad breeding) there are rules in place to safeguard the dogs (who are the most important things here) whether they go far enough is debatable but they are there. They are soon to change the amount of litters to 4 too so they are constantly changing and evolving. As I said they are not perfect but they are there, who safeguards the unregistered pups and their Mums?????


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

A non-KC reg pedigree dog could easily have inbreeding hidden through lack of registration. The boxer with epilepsy featured in PDE was a pet bred non KC registered dog from the mating of brother and sister for example. 

The two parents of a crossbreed won't be related but could themselves be horribly inbred. Obviously you will benefit from hybrid vigour, but different breeds do have dispostions to the same diseases - labradors and poodles are both pre-disposed to PRA.

When the KC banned close "inbreeding" they took a simplistic approach tot he problem. They should have put a ceiling on COI instead IMO as you can still register offspring that are more inbred with a much higher COI than full sibling or parent/offspring matings.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> The KC may accept or reject inbred litters at their discretion.
> I dont agree with the rule however .............


I am not asking in an antagonistic way at all I am just genuinely interested, and open to learn/see others point of view. Could you explain why you disagree with the rule and why close matings like that would be justified/a good thing?


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## Beau-a-saurus (Jan 26, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> No way would I ever inflict pain on myself.
> 
> Now if I could put on some thigh length boots and have a whip- I most certainly could become Miss oodlewhiplash and give people a thrashing :devil: :ciappa:


You could be Miss Whippapoo (or maybe that is just going too far )


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> When the KC banned close "inbreeding" they took a simplistic approach to the problem. They should have put a ceiling on COI
> instead IMO, as you can still register offspring that are more inbred with a much higher COI than full sibling
> or parent/offspring matings.


absolutely true. COI is crucial.

how does the KC limit *studs & their use?* IMO matador breedings, which prune the branches of diversity 
very fast indeed, are much more worrying than a bitch being bred too often; no one bitch can have literally hundreds 
of litters in her lifetime, while one stud can sire hundreds of litters in a single year.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> absolutely true. COI is crucial.
> 
> how does the KC limit *studs & their use?* IMO matador breedings, which prune the branches of diversity
> very fast indeed, are much more worrying than a bitch being bred too often; no one bitch can have literally hundreds
> of litters in her lifetime, while one stud can sire hundreds of litters in a single year.


They don't. Since number of progeny is available on Mate Select it's truly amazing to see how many pups some dogs have sired.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> I am not asking in an antagonistic way at all I am just genuinely interested, and open to learn/see others point of view. Could you explain why you disagree with the rule and why close matings like that would be justified/a good thing?


Are you refairing to line breeding? If so line breeding and in breeding are different.

Inbreeding, no decent breeder would endorse nor par-take in.
Inbreeding is a close mating between relatives usually the risks outweigh the benefits.

Line breeding has been proven effective to eliminate bad traits whilst keeping the good. The risk of issues coming from line breeding is very small as line breeding is still bringing in new blood.

Line breeding has been effective to breed health conditions out of certain lines as well as personality and temperament traits.

I in no way endorse in breeding however I myself believe line breeding to a degree is a good way of throwing out bad traits whilst bringing in new blood.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

jo5 said:


> I agree there is a fine line between inbreeding and line Breeding, my dogs are both pedigrees and they have some close matings back 5 generations ago but nothing since. Agree with the KC rules or disagree with them makes no odds to me but at least a Dog is traceble (whether that be good breeding or bad breeding) there are rules in place to safeguard the dogs (who are the most important things here) whether they go far enough is debatable but they are there. They are soon to change the amount of litters to 4 too so they are constantly changing and evolving. As I said they are not perfect but they are there, who safeguards the unregistered pups and their Mums?????


Have to mainly agree with your sentiments. As to who safeguards unregistered ones then yes there is greater onus on any buyer to do more research and choose what they consider to be an ethical breeder.

I think one issue is that if you are not in the "dog world" just an ordinary pet owner tend to think KC is some wonderful institution doing wonders - at the end of the day its nothing more than a breed registry or a database it could do so much more. If owners of pedigrees had to/were able to enter their dogs history - any illnesses diagnosed, when & why died then it could actually serve a useful purpose. Not only could the information be used for scientific purposes but prospective buyers would have something a bit more meaningful to check


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Are you refairing to line breeding? If so line breeding and in breeding are different.
> 
> Inbreeding, no decent breeder would endorse nor par-take in.
> Inbreeding is a close mating between relatives usually the risks outweigh the benefits.
> ...


Not really. Inbreeding and linebreeding amount to the same thing, it's just the thin and thick end of the wedge, that's why COI is a far superior tool. There are some good posts on the Linebreeding thread further down.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> Are you refairing to line breeding? If so line breeding and in breeding are different.
> 
> Inbreeding, no decent breeder would endorse nor par-take in.
> Inbreeding is a close mating between relatives usually the risks outweigh the benefits.
> ...


You answered a quote about in-breeding and said KC may accept or reject registration but you didn't agree with the rule? Different question - when does it cease to be in-breeding and become line breeding?


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Not really. Inbreeding and linebreeding amount to the same thing, it's just the thin and thick end of the wedge, that's why COI is a far superior tool. There are some good posts on the Linebreeding thread further down.


I have not gotten to the line breeding thread yet. :lol:

Say you were to breed Granddad to Granddaughter. There is no new blood in that mating, were as if you bred Great Great Granddads son with another Dam it's still line breeding but bringing in new blood at the same time.

I am not against outcrossing however I do consider line breeding effective.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> You answered a quote about in-breeding and said KC may accept or reject registration but you didn't agree with the rule? Different question - when does it cease to be in-breeding and become line breeding?


IMO (what I consider) line breeding is distant relative but not full relative.

I am confuzzling myself.hmy:


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Have to mainly agree with your sentiments. As to who safeguards unregistered ones then yes there is greater onus on any buyer to do more research and choose what they consider to be an ethical breeder.
> 
> I think one issue is that if you are not in the "dog world" just an ordinary pet owner tend to think KC is some wonderful institution doing wonders - at the end of the day its nothing more than a breed registry or a database it could do so much more. If owners of pedigrees had to/were able to enter their dogs history - any illnesses diagnosed, when & why died then it could actually serve a useful purpose. Not only could the information be used for scientific purposes but prospective buyers would have something a bit more meaningful to check


You are able to Check on Health tests results online now, for example I could find out whether the parents of my dogs have had eye tests and the appropriate DNA tests (which they have) I can also check their parents etc. 
When I look for a Puppy I find out its sires and Dams Reg name and I can then check out its Health check History, They have also just bought out their Mate Select checker which will work out COI's for any match you may be undertaking, it tells you the average for that Breed so you should be making a Match thats around or below the average score, all helpful tools in trying to do the best for our dogs with regards to breeding. Its not perfect but its always evolving.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> *emphasis added - *
> 
> *Inbreeding & linebreeding amount to the same thing, it's just the thin and thick end of the wedge*,
> that's why COI is a far superior tool.


yes - & the COI of 2 supposedly-distant relatives can be much closer than thought.

given the number of foundation animals in some breeds, 'UNRELATED' animals can be as close as siblings. 
assuming that this dog from another kennel-line is unrelated to this other dog can be utterly false "facts". 
COI is much more accurate & straightforward than merely perusing pedigrees for recent common ancestry.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Yes they still can I believe.
> 
> Also unless DNA is done how do they know that the offspring being registered is actually the litter from that sire or that dam?
> 
> I mean you say this Dam had this litter -so they take you on your word. As far as I am aware they don't need anything else????


I think Puppy farms use this loophole, though Reputable breeders who should always be first choice when buying a puppy do not


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Snoringbear said:


> To become a recognised breed then they will need to provide the KC with pedigrees from within a closed registry. One of the attractions of doodles is that they are crossbred or at least no further than F2 or 3. Acceptance by the KC would mean they would have to lose that diversity. I think they should just stay as they are simply as a type.


I'm going to shock myself here and totally agree. All my doods are first crosses.

One ironic point - It's continually bleated on this forum that "you never what you're going to get" with a cross. I've had two comments in two weeks about my GR x SPs (there are three of them - all from different parents and even the way round the parents were is different [as in father poodle mother GR and vice versa);

Comment one "Ooo look... twins" (this guy couldn't count either).

Comment two " What are they?... Labradoodles" - "No they're Golden Retriever x Poodle" - "Oh, they all look the same to me"


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

jo5 said:


> I think Puppy farms use this loophole, though Reputable breeders who should always be first choice when buying a puppy do not


But we're back to what is a reputable breeder. Your point was the non KC breeders don't have to stick to KC rules so you won't know if they're inbred (which is pretty impossible with a crossbreed.. I'll re-read Darwin and get back to yo on that) ... but now we see that the KC rules are not really rules as you can easily fiddle the pedigree.

So I can breed crosses and guarantee you that the parents are not related - something a KC breeder could not do.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> I have not gotten to the line breeding thread yet. :lol:
> 
> Say you were to breed Granddad to Granddaughter. There is no new blood in that mating, were as if you bred Great Great Granddads son with another Dam it's still line breeding but bringing in new blood at the same time.
> 
> I am not against outcrossing however I do consider line breeding effective.


The first scenario gives you a minimum of COI 12.5% which could increase dependent on what's behind them. It's also the same figure you get from half siblings. Either could be inbreeding or linebreeding dependent upon someones interpretation, but I'm sure that most people would consider grandad to grandaughter less close than half siblings just because of the generational gap. The COI shows otherwise.

I'm not sure what your second scenario is if it's an ancestor repeated on dam and sires side in the 5th generation then you get a COI of 0.19%. i think most peoples interpretation of line breeding would be doubling up in third or maybe fourth gen.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But we're back to what is a reputable breeder. Your point was the non KC breeders don't have to stick to KC rules so you won't know if they're in breed (which is pretty impossible with a crossbreed.. I'll re-read Darwin and get back to yo on that) ... but now we see that the KC rules are not really rules as you can easily fiddle the pedigree.
> 
> So I can breed crosses and guarantee you that the parents are not related - something a KC breeder could not do.


Fiddling Dams and Sires would be pointless to the general breeder (i.e not Puppy Farming, nobody should buy from a Pet Shop or Puppy farm), why would you want to breed your Bitch to her Son, you are just asking for problems its not about duping people its about common sense, when using a stud the owner of the Stud signs the paper work to state that his dog was used, you then pay the Stud owner , what would be of benefit to the Stud owner to sign papers that his Stud had sired a litter it hadn't?????
Pointless


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

jo5 said:


> You are able to Check on Health tests results online now, for example I could find out whether the parents of my dogs have had eye tests and the appropriate DNA tests (which they have) I can also check their parents etc.
> When I look for a Puppy I find out its sires and Dams Reg name and I can then check out its Health check History, They have also just bought out their Mate Select checker which will work out COI's for any match you may be undertaking, it tells you the average for that Breed so you should be making a Match thats around or below the average score, all helpful tools in trying to do the best for our dogs with regards to breeding. Its not perfect but its always evolving.


Agree but its such a very small step. If you could go online and check history of parents sibling/previous litters so you know if still fit & healthy or could see that say 25% all died of cancer at a young age or 50% had diabetes (just random examples by the way!) would that mean more to you than just knowing who had been tested for what?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> Agree but its such a very small step. If you could go online and check history of parents sibling/previous litters so you know if still fit & healthy or could see that say 25% all died of cancer at a young age or 50% had diabetes (just random examples by the way!) would that mean more to you than just knowing who had been tested for what?


You can. You can see parents and health testing further back in the pedigree, plus the results for siblings and progeny.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But we're back to what is a reputable breeder. Your point was the non KC breeders don't have to stick to KC rules so you won't know if they're in breed (which is pretty impossible with a crossbreed.. I'll re-read Darwin and get back to yo on that) ... but now we see that the KC rules are not really rules as you can easily fiddle the pedigree.
> 
> So I can breed crosses and guarantee you that the parents are not related - something a KC breeder could not do.


You can fiddle it, I've known it done. They are generally found out by DNA testing.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Agree but its such a very small step. If you could go online and check history of parents sibling/previous litters so you know if still fit & healthy or could see that say 25% all died of cancer at a young age or 50% had diabetes (just random examples by the way!) would that mean more to you than just knowing who had been tested for what?


Absolutely, maybe a Death should have to be registered too, cause of Death etc. Of course some conditions are Genetic which you can test for , others are Familial and others are contributed to 'lifestyle' i.e obesity etc, so it wouldn't mean that because one of your Dogs siblings died of Diabetes yours is going to go the same way but it would be helpful yes.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I'm going to shock myself here and totally agree. All my doods are first crosses.
> 
> One ironic point - It's continually bleated on this forum that "you never what you're going to get" with a cross. I've had two comments in two weeks about my GR x SPs (there are three of them - all from different parents and even the way round the parents were is different [as in father poodle mother GR and vice versa);
> 
> ...


I'm glad we do.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Noel's our hero ...two dogs broke.... two dogs fixed ... top bloke
> 
> Dog's Today is not liked by the pedigree people as it doesn't tow the line and will report all aspects, particularly appealing to the majority of dog owners who aren't part of the self appointed "dog establishment". There's room for everyone, shame the pedigree gang didn't use the opportunity to do the right thing.. it would have been a great chance for them to show the world their main concern was canine health but (as you say) they just stood back, said it was all a pack of lies and then threw stones.


pedigree gang! luv it



Elmo the Bear said:


> But we're back to what is a reputable breeder. Your point was the non KC breeders don't have to stick to KC rules so you won't know if they're in breed (which is pretty impossible with a crossbreed.. I'll re-read Darwin and get back to yo on that) ... but now we see that the KC rules are not really rules as you can easily fiddle the pedigree.
> 
> So I can breed crosses and guarantee you that the parents are not related - something a KC breeder could not do.


but reputable KC breeders have nothing to gain from fiddling pedigrees, they are passionate about their chosen breeds and strive to produce healthy puppies.
But what about Australian Doodles?, they seem to be highly prized by breeders over here, yet many are bred by a notorious puppy farmer, whos dogs pedigrees are less than trustworthy...not to mention whos breeding eithics are deplorable.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> . . . Inbreeding, no decent breeder would endorse nor par-take in.
> 
> Inbreeding is a close mating between relatives usually the risks outweigh the benefits. . . . .


In the breeds I am familiar with I have studied the pedigrees of top dogs and top breeders with top affixes and there are many that inbreed - that is mate half siblings and even parent/offspring. This is right up to current pedigrees.

It makes me wonder, then, how one is to descern a 'decent breeder' if some believe no decent breeder would partake in inbreeding, but the very breeders who do are the ones with the top names in the breeds.

CC


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

jo5 said:


> Absolutely, maybe a Death should have to be registered too, cause of Death etc. Of course some conditions are Genetic which you can test for , others are Familial and others are contributed to 'lifestyle' i.e obesity etc, so it wouldn't mean that because one of your Dogs siblings died of Diabetes yours is going to go the same way but it would be helpful yes.


I'd love it if age and cause of death were commonly part of database information, even if the cause of death was an accident. The more info shared the better.

CC


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> In the breeds I am familiar with I have studied the pedigrees of top dogs and top breeders with top affixes and there are many that inbreed - that is mate half siblings and even parent/offspring. This is right up to current pedigrees.
> 
> It makes me wonder, then, how one is to descern a 'decent breeder' if some believe no decent breeder would partake in inbreeding, but the very breeders who do are the ones with the top names in the breeds.
> 
> CC


Define top names? I have found that the top kennels in the country within different breeds are often those who dont fully health test or do the bare minimum in tests, have many dogs producing many litters a year.

Just because a breeder does well in the show ring doesnt make them decent imo, a decent breeder is one who;
-Fully health tests and keeps those tests up to date (would you believe that many dont do yearly eye exams or even eye exams on the years they breed they do 1 exam then thats it done. *When I took my two to be eye tested last month I got talking with Mr Ellis who I agree with that eye tests should be carried on routinely thoughout the dogs life so that they can keep tabs on any conditions that crop up!*

-Breed when they want a pup OR only breed once/twice a year at the most. Some kennels have some 8-15 litters a year! Why?.

-A breeder who cares enough to vet the homes of the pups(be it by phoning the vet/others who know the person or by traveling) not just a "hi the litters ready to go ___insert date here___ bye".

-A breeder who is happy to puppy owners to contact them if there is a health problem and not just blow them off or sweep it under the carpet.

-A breeder who endorses their pups and will only remove said endorsements once the health tests are done and are to standard.

I have yet to come across a big kennel that does all of these. Sadly.

Anyone who thinks its okay to inbreed now with the knowledge we have on the subject imo is not a breeder I would endorse.

Over the past few months I have been looking at the future for which dog breed I would like in the future as a pet. (bare in mind, dont want to breed this only have as a pet in gosh.....a few years). I contacted a range of breeders in a range of breeds to find out a bit more about the breeds ect.
I was shocked to see that in most breeds the kennels that had the most dogs and the most litters didnt endorse and had eye certs that were not upto date.

I honestly dont see why health tests cant be kept upto date. And why pups cant be endorsed. It costs nothing extra to endorse the pups.

Back to inbreeding.

I have yet to see a pedigree within my own breed that shows a resent inbreeding. I cant possibly see why someone would.

Inbreeding has happened and possibly still happens in some breeds. 
But I dont see why with the knowledge and information out there why there is any reason to.

As for COI, I am useless with it. I have a mentor who's helping me but apparently the breeding we are hoping to do with Alaska which is line breeding (its her Great great granddads son from another dam) is around 5.2% (I cant remember the exact figure) again dont hold figures I am useless with it. Have another 4-5 months to get used to it. :blush2:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> but reputable KC breeders have nothing to gain from fiddling pedigrees, they are passionate about their chosen breeds and strive to produce healthy puppies.
> But what about Australian Doodles?, they seem to be highly prized by breeders over here, yet many are bred by a notorious puppy farmer, whos dogs pedigrees are less than trustworthy...not to mention whos breeding eithics are deplorable.


Yes, you've told me this before. All KC breeders are reputable and all breeders of crosses are the spawn of the devil and doubtless sacrifice small children to their designer Gods of a Wednesday (just after bridge club and sandwiches).

... but in reality - not all KC breeders are reputable and some do fiddle pedigrees so they can inbreed and not all breeders of crosses have "deplorable" breeding ethics.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Yes, you've told me this before. All KC breeders are reputable and all breeders of crosses are the spawn of the devil and doubtless sacrifice small children to their designer Gods of a Wednesday (just after bridge club and sandwiches).
> 
> ... but in reality - not all KC breeders are reputable and some do fiddle pedigrees so they can inbreed and not all breeders of crosses have "deplorable" breeding ethics.


I don't think Noush was talking about all crossbreed breeders
Love the idea of ritual sacrifice of children after bridge club though


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Yes, you've told me this before. *All KC breeders are reputable and all breeders of crosses are the spawn of the devil and doubtless sacrifice small children to their designer Gods of a Wednesday (just after bridge club and sandwiches). *
> 
> ... but in reality - not all KC breeders are reputable and some do fiddle pedigrees so they can inbreed and not all breeders of crosses have "deplorable" breeding ethics.


The only divide I see is one created by comments like this though! 
They are all dogs, they sniff each others butt's, they will eat cat poo if they get chance and they stink when wet. 
Cross or pedigree a bad breeder is a bad breeder.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> All KC breeders are reputable and all breeders of crosses are the spawn of the devil
> and doubtless sacrifice small children to their designer Gods of a Wednesday (just after bridge club and sandwiches).


substitute *puppy-mill breeders* or *industrial-scale breeders* or *puppy-farmers* for children, 
& i'll sell tickets and run a booth. :thumbup: anyone want to staff the White-Elephant sale?

i'll run Fish The Bottle & set-up the beanbag-target booth beside it, if someone else will staff the beanbag-target booth.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> The only divide I see is one created by comments like this though!
> They are all dogs, they sniff each others butt's, *they will eat cat poo if they get chance* and they stink when wet.
> Cross or pedigree a bad breeder is a bad breeder.


I wish mine were just limited to cat poo


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> In the breeds I am familiar with I have studied the pedigrees of top dogs and top breeders with top affixes and there are many that inbreed - that is mate half siblings and even parent/offspring. This is right up to current pedigrees.
> 
> It makes me wonder, then, how one is to descern a 'decent breeder' if some believe no decent breeder would partake in inbreeding, but the very breeders who do are the ones with the top names in the breeds.
> 
> CC


Currently you can't register parent/offspring, so it wouldn't be on KC pedigrees, in the pasrt yes but not today


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Yes, you've told me this before. All KC breeders are reputable and all breeders of crosses are the spawn of the devil and doubtless sacrifice small children to their designer Gods of a Wednesday (just after bridge club and sandwiches).
> 
> ... but in reality - not all KC breeders are reputable and some do fiddle pedigrees so they can inbreed and not all breeders of crosses have "deplorable" breeding ethics.


yes because i think its important people know about such 'breeders'!

ive never once said All KC breeders are reputable, far from it! but at least its relatively easy to find a reputable one.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> I don't think Noush was talking about all crossbreed breeders
> Love the idea of ritual sacrifice of children after bridge club though


thank you SS, i was talking about one in particular but Elmo knows that


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Malmum said:


> I love Labradoodles and Goldendoodles and notice in this months Dogs Today mag they have been added to list of breeds so hopefully they'll be a recognised breed.


They are NOT a recognised breed, and they are not going to become recognised breeds - presumably one of the factors people love about these crosses is that they haven't got a clue what a first generation cross will produce in terms of coat, size, behaviour, activity or temperament - personally, I prefer a little more certainty in my life.

To become a breed, there would have to be a type - the SECOND you get to a second generation cross - you have the same health problems that Labs, Goldies and Poodles suffer from (there is a lot of crossover so to start with you are not producing something healthier than either breed - PRA, Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia are all issues to consider) - plus those health problems unique to the poodle and the Labrador or Goldie to consider - because now they have a matching set of genes.

As soon as you get to a second generation, you have now produced a pedigree breed with MORE health problems than either of it's pedigree originators - the minute you close the breed - your genepool is completely shutdown - therefore the linebreeding in labrador or Golden Poodle Crosses will be far tighter than you will ever see in pedigree dogs with moderate to large gene pools.

Add to this the fact that the large majority of lines starting these cross-breeds are often poor, because good kennels will not use their dogs for cross-breeding - and usually unhealth-tested - it's a ticking time-bomb - I don't agree with deliberate crosses - but make either of these mixes a breed - and you will have serious problems.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> As for COI, I am useless with it. I have a mentor who's helping me but apparently the breeding we are hoping to do with Alaska which is line breeding (its her Great great granddads son from another dam) is around 5.2% (I cant remember the exact figure) again dont hold figures I am useless with it. Have another 4-5 months to get used to it. :blush2:


But why is this classed as line breeding as opposed to in breeding, what is the closest relative that becomes deemed as line instead of in-breeding and why the need to do either?



swarthy said:


> They are NOT a recognised breed, and they are not going to become recognised breeds.


The majority DO NOT WANT them to be a recognised breed (not sure why you shouted so thought I would !!) for the very reasons you describe - to be recognised they would end up being in-bred :huh:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

DoodlesRule said:


> But why is this classed as line breeding as opposed to in breeding, what is the closest relative that becomes deemed as line instead of in-breeding and why the need to do either?
> 
> The majority DO NOT WANT them to be a recognised breed (not sure why you shouted so thought I would !!) for the very reasons you describe - to be recognised they would end up being in-bred :huh:


Inbreeding and linebreeding: Inbreeding and Linebreeding


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> The majority DO NOT WANT them to be a recognised breed (not sure why you shouted so thought I would !!) for the very reasons you describe - to be recognised they would end up being in-bred :huh:


Sorry - I wasn't shouting at anyone per se - but shouted because this old chestnut seems to rear it's head every now and again - currently also being discussed on another forum - and apparently it's also been posted on FB recently - it's simply not going to happen

This is a genuine question to those who believe and hope it will become a breed - you defend the right for breeders to produce these crosses - and while I don't - it they are going to do it, I would rather it be done with good quality health-tested dogs (the chances of which are slim at best) - yet then claim you want it to become a breed 

People can't have it all ways - they either remain and become a recognised cross that people want and are bred responsibly first generation only with an open gene-pool, or they become a recognised breed - and you are going to be looking 20/30 +++ years down the line for that to ever happen and a lot more than 1st generation crosses, even then, you would have to go back out to each pedigree breed at times in your lines to keep the gene pool feasible.

DoodlesRule - that's not aimed at you, because I know you understand what I am saying.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't want either of my two crosses to become a breed and have said so numerous times.

I am happy that they are crosses  I accept that they are crosses 

I like that there are pedigree dogs and crossbreeds and mongrels. 

I have had all types in my life at what time or another as I'm sure others have had to.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Snoringbear said:


> Inbreeding and linebreeding: Inbreeding and Linebreeding


Thank you found it incredibly interesting & informative, and really a bit depressing. Confirmed my thought there is effectively no difference


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> yes because i think its important people know about such 'breeders'!
> 
> ive never once said All KC breeders are reputable, far from it! but at least its relatively easy to find a reputable one.


But only about such "crossbreeders".

So tell me how I find a reputable KC breeder.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

swarthy said:


> To become a breed, there would have to be a type - the SECOND you get to a second generation cross - you have the same health problems that Labs, Goldies and Poodles suffer from (there is a lot of crossover so to start with you are not producing something healthier than either breed - PRA, Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia are all issues to consider) - plus those health problems unique to the poodle and the Labrador or Goldie to consider - because now they have a matching set of genes.
> 
> As soon as you get to a second generation, you have now produced a pedigree breed with MORE health problems than either of it's pedigree originators - the minute you close the breed - your genepool is completely shutdown - therefore the linebreeding in labrador or Golden Poodle Crosses will be far tighter than you will ever see in pedigree dogs with moderate to large gene pools.
> 
> Add to this the fact that the large majority of lines starting these cross-breeds are often poor, because good kennels will not use their dogs for cross-breeding - and usually unhealth-tested - it's a ticking time-bomb - I don't agree with deliberate crosses - but make either of these mixes a breed - and you will have serious problems.


You really should qualify all the above with the words "I believe that". It's written as a statement of fact which, of course, it is not.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But only about such "crossbreeders".
> 
> So tell me how I find a reputable KC breeder.


Many ways.

Champdogs seems to be the easiest, most breeders have websites and have their health test results on the page. You can double check most of them by entering the KC name into the database. The website will also give you a good idea of how many litters they have and a simple email to the breeder can tell you what questions or vetting you will have to go through and if the pups will be endorsed. Most good breeders will be happy for you to arrange a visit to meet the dogs and see how you interact with them.

OR if you are feeling brave, get down to shows and see which dogs you like, get talking to the handler/breeder and find out if they test and what tests if they do. (I recently did this, was an amazing experience and really did make some good friends for it).

OR contact your breed club they will be happy to put you in touch with any breeders that match what you are after.

Word of mouth is a good way too.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Many ways.
> 
> Champdogs seems to be the easiest, most breeders have websites and have their health test results on the page. You can double check most of them by entering the KC name into the database. The website will also give you a good idea of how many litters they have and a simple email to the breeder can tell you what questions or vetting you will have to go through and if the pups will be endorsed. Most good breeders will be happy for you to arrange a visit to meet the dogs and see how you interact with them.
> 
> ...


Sorry - how does any of this guarantee they a reputable breeder. You're basically advising me to "get in with the in crowd".


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry - how does any of this guarantee they a reputable breeder. You're basically advising me to "get in with the in crowd".


You asked how to find a reputable breeder....I have told you a few ways of how to.

How is giving the breed club a call or visiting a website getting in with the crowd? Or is it a case of picking faults in anything you dont agree with?:wink:


----------



## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Also;



> how does any of this guarantee they a reputable breeder


What would you class as a reputable breeder? You see if you class someone who breeds loads of litters a year reputable and lack or minimum amounts of health test then you can almost pick them out of a hat at random.

The good ones are out there (a good few) but because what I class as reputable doesnt breed loads of litters they wont be on pets4homes or advertising in the paper. Breed clubs will be aware of these good breeders, champdogs gives a wide view across many breeds to who health tests or not and simple re-search will throw up loads of other breeders to help you find a good breeder if they dont have pups at the time you want.:smilewinkgrin:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Because, in my opinion and experience, (some of) the breeds clubs are the problem. They see breeding to "type" more important than breeding for health so will point me to "Dave" (or Dorothy) who has been breeding to type for years without health tests (as the breed was established 300 years ago when health testing did not exist) or any concern for the dog. That is not, in my humble opinion, a reputable breeder.... despite the fact they've stuck to all the "rules".


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Also;
> 
> What would you class as a reputable breeder? You see if you class someone who breeds loads of litters a year reputable and lack or minimum amounts of health test then you can almost pick them out of a hat at random.
> 
> The good ones are out there (a good few) but because what I class as reputable doesnt breed loads of litters they wont be on pets4homes or advertising in the paper. Breed clubs will be aware of these good breeders, champdogs gives a wide view across many breeds to who health tests or not and simple re-search will throw up loads of other breeders to help you find a good breeder if they dont have pups at the time you want.:smilewinkgrin:


Are you making up your own arguments now or can anyone join in... who actually said all this tosh you're writing... certainly wasn't me. I want a breeder to be able to prove to me what they're doing... not just rely on what Mavis at the breed club says.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> You asked how to find a reputable breeder....I have told you a few ways of how to.
> 
> How is giving the breed club a call or visiting a website getting in with the crowd? Or is it a case of picking faults in anything you dont agree with?:wink:


Sorry, this answers my question... you are making up your own arguments.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Because, IMO & IME, (some of) the breeds clubs are the problem. They see breeding to "type"
> [as] more important than breeding for health so will point me to "Dave" (or Dorothy) who has been *breeding to type
> for years without health tests* (as the breed was established 300 years ago when health testing did not exist)
> or any concern for the dog. That is not, in my humble opinion, a reputable breeder... despite the fact
> [that] they've stuck to all the "rules".


what a smoking pile of dung. :nono: EVERYONE here who refers to an ethical or reputable breeder has said *screen, 
test, an annual eye-certificate * which means it's 12-mos or less old or it's invalid, * radiographs for joints, 
DNA test for PRA if it's available to check carrier-status, & so on. *

NO ONE but U has said, 'Dave or Dorothy who've bred for umpteen years & never do health-tests before breeding'.

U are not discussing anything about responsible breeding at all - U are simply throwing rocks.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

I am confused.

You want a reputable breeder.....

But you dont want to have to go to a show, talk to a breed club or go on champdogs? Oh and you want the breed to prove to you they are reputable? 

Most good breeders dont breed more than once/twice a year, when contacted they would be more than happy to give you any information you want on health tests, breeding, the breed ect. 

What are YOU as a puppy buyer willing to do to find the breeder you want?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But only about such "crossbreeders".
> 
> So tell me how I find a reputable KC breeder.


oh no not at all, believe me ive as much venom for those breeders like her who breed pedigrees

well i'd recommend visiting shows to get talking to breeders, many are lovely and very approachable you can get a real feel for people... but you shouldnt go on this alone no, also contact the breed club, basically do plenty of research, check the dogs kc names to ensure they havent been over bred, good breeders dont breed often, ensure health tests have been done etc....so how would i find a reputable doodle breeder then?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> what a smoking pile of dung. :nono: EVERYONE here who refers to an ethical or reputable breeder has said *screen,
> test, an annual eye-certificate * which means it's 12-mos or less old or it's invalid, * radiographs for joints,
> DNA test for PRA if it's available to check carrier-status, & so on. *
> 
> ...


Whatever - the KC and breed clubs don't insist on tests yet the advice to find a reputable breeder is "ask the breed club". More dung for you (you could start a collection)

"Everyone" here has suggested the KC or a breed club... neither of which enforce any testing of any kind. ... so your up with me on the "dung" stakes.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> oh no not at all, believe me ive as much venom for those breeders like her who breed pedigrees
> 
> well i'd recommend visiting shows to get talking to breeders, many are lovely and very approachable you can get a real feel for people... but you shouldnt go on this alone no, also contact the breed club, basically do plenty of research, check the dogs kc names to ensure they havent been over bred, good breeders dont breed often, ensure health tests have been done etc....so how would i find a reputable doodle breeder then?


Word for word Noush, think we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Even if its apparently the wrong one


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> oh no not at all, believe me ive as much venom for those breeders like her who breed pedigrees
> 
> well i'd recommend visiting shows to get talking to breeders, many are lovely and very approachable you can get a real feel for people... but you shouldnt go on this alone no, also contact the breed club, basically do plenty of research, check the dogs kc names to ensure they havent been over bred, good breeders dont breed often, ensure health tests have been done etc....so how would i find a reputable doodle breeder then?


Ok - I get the joke now... sorry... bit slow there. 

You want me to check with the clubs, the KC and the shows... all of the things that have spawned the problems... sorry... irony.. missed it.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Whatever - the KC and breed clubs don't insist on tests yet the advice to find a reputable breeder is "ask the breed club". More dung for you (you could start a collection)


 breeds have a code of ethics, this is taken from mine!

Will endeavour to keep informed in the field of genetics and will work persistently to eliminate any hereditary defects from this breed. 
Will before entering into any Breeding Agreement carefully analyse the conformation and pedigrees of the prospective sire and dam, take into consideration any known hereditary or genetic defects and, keeping the Breed Standard in mind, refuse the mating if, in their opinion, it will not be in the best interests of the Breed. If they deny a Stud Service they will fully explain their reasons to the owner of the bitch. 
Will undertake to screen all those Siberians they propose to breed from for all known hereditary defects, including Hip Displaysia and send a copy of the results certificates to the Breed Historian. They will not breed from stock that is affected by PRA Hereditary Cataracts or pre-disposition to Primary Glaucoma and will endeavour to ensure that all puppies produced through their breeding will be similarly tested before they are bred from. If another hereditary problem occurs in their bloodlines, they will be honest and open about it to ensure that it is not unknowingly perpetuated in the Breed. 
Will accept full responsibility for all puppies they have bred. They will always take back, or provide for, any dog of their breeding which needs a new home until they find an alternative suitable home.

Breach of these provisions may result in expulsion from club membership, and/or disciplinary action by the Kennel Club and/or reporting to the relevant authorities for legal action, as appropriate.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Ok - I get the joke now... sorry... bit slow there.
> 
> You want me to check with the clubs, the KC and the shows... all of the things that have spawned the problems... sorry... irony.. missed it.


lol i knew you'd be impressed

so come on then how do i find a reputable doodle breeder????????:smilewinkgrin:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> breeds have a code of ethics, this is taken from mine!
> 
> Will endeavour to keep informed in the field of genetics and will work persistently to eliminate any hereditary defects from this breed.
> Will before entering into any Breeding Agreement carefully analyse the conformation and pedigrees of the prospective sire and dam, take into consideration any known hereditary or genetic defects and, keeping the Breed Standard in mind, refuse the mating if, in their opinion, it will not be in the best interests of the Breed. If they deny a Stud Service they will fully explain their reasons to the owner of the bitch.
> ...


The financial and banking markets also have a code of ethics.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Word for word Noush, think we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Even if its apparently the wrong one


lol so true


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> lol i knew you'd be impressed
> 
> so come on then how do i find a reputable doodle breeder????????:smilewinkgrin:


They're all reputable... 

Difficult now. See I was asked this question before and answered by recommending the breeder we got one of our doods from. When I next met her she'd had hate mail, phone calls etc etc and had stop advertising at all. So the plan to try and stop crossing by simply taking every opportunity to run it down does work. She was an excellent breeder to the point where the testing she did was stuff my vet told couldn't even be done in this country and needed to be sent abroad - she doesn't breed now, doubtless put off by the hate mail so that's one good breeder lost and one more opening for a puppy farmer.

Doubtless my new special friend will think of another complex word like "dung"... or something equally pleasant.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I want a breeder to be able to prove to me what they're doing...
> not just rely on what Mavis at the breed club says.


that's what eye-certificates *signed by a k9-opthalmologist* provide: proof.

that's what radiographs & an OFA or Penn-HIP rating are: proof.

that's what a DNA-profile for carrier-status does: *proves* that the animal in question does, or does *not,* 
carry a particular gene.

that's why the AKC requires a *microchip* & *verification of the dog's ID* via that chip, 
for radiograph results to be listed for that dog - NOT just a name, owner & reg-#.

that's why vets confirm a bitch's *chip number* when they do A-I: 
to affirm that this bitch was bred by that dog's semen. 
they also confirm a dog's chip# when taking semen for future breeding: 
no breeder gets to fudge the data - they can't use the less-popular brother.

here's just one breeder with AmStaffs - http://tinyurl.com/3ond69n


> **ATTS Temperament Test News For Mt. Brier Dogs --
> Ch. Mt. Brier's Sweet Pandemonium, TT, PennHIP, OFAca, Ataxia Carrier 'Pandora'
> & Mt. Brier's Calm Before The Storm, TT 'Stormy' both passed the American Temperament Test Society Test
> in Graham, WA on July 31st and both now have their TT titles
> ...


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Word for word Noush, think we are singing from the same hymn sheet. Even if its apparently the wrong one


I think you're just humming the tune actually


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> that's what eye-certificates *signed by a k9-opthalmologist* provide: proof.
> 
> that's what radiographs & an OFA or Penn-HIP rating are: proof.
> 
> ...


This may be the case on whatever planet you're speaking from but in the UK there is nothing to say they have to do this.... no enforcement... no regulation.... stick an advert on saying KC registered pups and fill the form in.. no requirement for health tests.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> They're all reputable...
> 
> Difficult now. See I was asked this question before and answered by recommending the breeder we got one of our doods from. When I next met her she'd had hate mail, phone calls etc etc and had stop advertising at all. So the plan to try and stop crossing by simply taking every opportunity to run it down does work. She was an excellent breeder to the point where the testing she did was stuff my vet told couldn't even be done in this country and needed to be sent abroad - she doesn't breed now, doubtless put off by the hate mail so that's one good breeder lost and one more opening for a puppy farmer.
> 
> Doubtless my new special friend will think of another complex word like "dung"... or something equally pleasant.


i wasnt asking for you to name a specific person i was asking how someone would go about finding a reputable doodle breeder??...someone on pf might actually want to know!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i wasnt asking for you to name a specific person i was asking how someone would go about finding a reputable doodle breeder??...someone on pf might actually want to know!


I don't think you'll find there are many members hanging around in search of a health tested cross breed... if they were they'd be far to hesitant to post.

The answer to finding a breeder is the same for any breeder. I don't trust breed clubs or the KC so they're no use, unregulated and self serving. I'd want to see proper and appropriate health testing and both parents and their history. As the KC pedigrees are not reliable but are the only available, an amount of this particular part is on trust (but not the health testing).

I'd want leave to visit the breeder as and when (not at an appointed time) and the opportunity to talk to their vet. In my case the vet visited the breeder regularly.

Shame she's not breeding now really.... these would be my minimum specs.. if a breeder couldn't do that I'd walk.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Because, in my opinion and experience, (some of) the breeds clubs are the problem. They see breeding to "type" more important than breeding for health so will point me to "Dave" (or Dorothy) who has been breeding to type for years without health tests (as the breed was established 300 years ago when health testing did not exist) or any concern for the dog. That is not, in my humble opinion, a reputable breeder.... despite the fact they've stuck to all the "rules".


If you had written this a few yrs ago then I would probably have agreed with you (to a point) However Health Testing has become an enormous part of Reputable Breeding in the last few yrs, things are changing and for the better, you will probably disagree but its true. Would I have even asked about Health Testing 3 yrs ago, no I wouldn't , did I when I bought my first Cocker 2 yrs ago you bet I did.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> They're all reputable...
> 
> Difficult now. See I was asked this question before and answered by recommending the breeder we got one of our doods from. When I next met her she'd had hate mail, phone calls etc etc and had stop advertising at all. So the plan to try and stop crossing by simply taking every opportunity to run it down does work. She was an excellent breeder to the point where the testing she did was stuff my vet told couldn't even be done in this country and needed to be sent abroad - she doesn't breed now, doubtless put off by the hate mail so that's one good breeder lost and one more opening for a puppy farmer.
> 
> Doubtless my new special friend will think of another complex word like "dung"... or something equally pleasant.


Love it.

You would not have settled for that reply from anyone advocating pedigree's.

So when you ask how do I find a reputable pedigree breeder I should reply...

"Difficult since someone I know who's a reputable breeder got called a pedigree snob and her dogs mutants once I dont release information on reputable breeders"

:lol:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

... I can still hear that humming....... must check the fridge motor.....


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> i wasnt asking for you to name a specific person i was asking how someone would go about finding a reputable doodle breeder??...someone on pf might actually want to know!


This reminds me of when I bathed Theo for the first time and he was scrambling to get out and failing.

It resulted in him pooing everywhere......wonder if the same result will happen here.:smilewinkgrin:


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> They're all reputable...
> 
> Difficult now. See I was asked this question before and answered by recommending the breeder we got one of our doods from. When I next met her she'd had hate mail, phone calls etc etc and had stop advertising at all. So the plan to try and stop crossing by simply taking every opportunity to run it down does work. She was an excellent breeder to the point where the testing she did was stuff my vet told couldn't even be done in this country and needed to be sent abroad - she doesn't breed now, doubtless put off by the hate mail so that's one good breeder lost and one more opening for a puppy farmer.
> 
> Doubtless my new special friend will think of another complex word like "dung"... or something equally pleasant.


I think the tests you are referring to are the DNA tests which are not done in this country, most DNA tests have to be sent to Clinics abroad, so excellent that she was doing that but its nothing above and beyond what all reputable breeders *should* be doing anyway


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> This reminds me of when I bathed Theo for the first time and he was scrambling to get out and failing.
> 
> It resulted in him pooing everywhere......wonder if the same result will happen here.:smilewinkgrin:


Do you always become childishly offensive when you're not sure what's going on or do you reserve that behaviour for me only.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

jo5 said:


> I think the tests you are referring to are the DNA tests which are not done in this country, most DNA tests have to be sent to Clinics abroad, so excellent that she was doing that but its nothing above and beyond what all reputable breeders *should* be doing anyway


But above and beyond what any breed club enforces?


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Do you always become childishly offensive when you're not sure what's going on or do you reserve that behaviour for me only.


Just for you hun.

I am still waiting for you to post a how-to-guide on finding a good doodle breeder.

This silly dance we do is the exact reason many of us dont believe reputable breeders in crosses exist. Because its so hard to find them, yet its easy to find a reputable pedigree breeder.

When questions are reversed and asked back to you, you cant answer them. Yet me and Noush have happily answered your question.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Just for you hun.
> 
> I am still waiting for you to post a how-to-guide on finding a good doodle breeder.
> 
> ...


I posted how to find a good breeder.... you need to read it... it wasn't complicated... or very long.

Or you could stick to what you do best...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> This may be the case *on whatever planet you're speaking from*, but in the UK there is nothing to say they have to do this..
> no requirement for health tests [by the Kennel Club or breed club].


i'm sure U're aware that the USA & UK are on the same planet - altho at this point, i'd cheerfully help raise funds to ship U to the international space-station for a year's visit. 
anyone else want to subscribe?... 

the breeder whose website i quoted from was not *required* to test - 
she does it because she wants to produce excellent quality & healthy dogs.

nobody's standing over her with a whip & a chair. *testing is optional, unless the breed club mandates it.*

the Basenji Club of America mandated testing for the bleeding problem in their breed, & virtually eliminated it 
in less than 5-years. Pretending it's not happening does nothing to help; *acting* to prevent problems 
or to improve health & quality takes resolution. *Importing new bloodlines from the country of origin also 
helped to deepen the breed's gene-pool; A-I from overseas can do the same thing, with less cost: no dogs 
have to be shipped from place to place.*

if British breed-clubs want to improve the health of their breeds, they need some minimum standard for tests. 
IOW to register a litter for future breeding stock, X, Y & Z tests must be done on prospective dam & prospective stud, 
& their tests must meet a set standard to allow that dog or bitch to be bred, & their progeny to later possibly breed.

otherwise if the dam or the stud are NOT tested, all the pups are automatically endorsed unless each dog 
is later tested, found to be worth breeding, & approved individually *by their breeder, who lifts the endorsement.*.

now U would have 2 ranks: 
PET quality whose progeny cannot be registered for breeding, & who cannot themselves be bred 
unless they are fully tested & their original breeder lifts the endorsement, 
& future breeding-stock whose parents were tested, but themselves still need to be tested to breed, 
& then register any progeny.

pet-quality are an end game: they are not to be bred unless they pass the tests, AND the breeder removes 
the endorsement.

tested parents would produce pups who are conditionally potential breeders: they still must be tested & pass.

get the breed-clubs to get serious about mandatory testing & create open-registries for the results.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I posted how to find a good breeder.... you need to read it... it wasn't complicated... or very long.
> 
> Or you could stick to what you do best...


Oh no..I read it.

It said;



> They're all reputable...


Followed by an excuse as to why you wont post a how to guide..which in no way mentions a good way to find a reputable breeder. (because its an excuse).



> Difficult now. See I was asked this question before and answered by recommending the breeder we got one of our doods from. When I next met her she'd had hate mail, phone calls etc etc and had stop advertising at all. So the plan to try and stop crossing by simply taking every opportunity to run it down does work. She was an excellent breeder to the point where the testing she did was stuff my vet told couldn't even be done in this country and needed to be sent abroad - she doesn't breed now, doubtless put off by the hate mail so that's one good breeder lost and one more opening for a puppy farmer.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Just for you hun.
> 
> I am still waiting for you to post a how-to-guide on finding a good doodle breeder.
> 
> ...


Sorry.

I'm not your hun.

You do a silly dance because you really believe that the clubs you protect are good for dogs when they do little or nothing and are actually the cause of most of the problems. If you wish to continue to be part of the problem then fine... I'd prefer to be part of the solution.

It's easier to slate crosses than to defend the practices you support by inaction.

I answered the question I was asked (you did not ask me a question)...


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Oh no..I read it.
> 
> It said;
> 
> Followed by an excuse as to why you wont post a how to guide..which in no way mentions a good way to find a reputable breeder. (because its an excuse).


Yes that's what it said... well done.... time for nurse


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

leashedForLife said:


> get the breed-clubs to get serious about mandatory testing & create open-registries for the results.


So why are you throwing 'dung' at me when I'm the only other person on this thread to say that. The testing has to be regulated otherwise its meaningless.


----------



## Guest (Aug 12, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry.
> 
> I'm not your hun.
> 
> ...


Oh but you are my hun.

What solution are you part of then? Creating your own sick dogs from dogs that you state are messed up because of breed clubs. If pedigree's are so ill ect why are you using them to create your crosses that end up with the same problems (except double the risk) as the pedigrees? Surely you would use a straight up mutt.

But no....why?

Because you are just like everyone else. You want a dog who looks a certain way.

The funny part is you believe that creating more dogs for rescues to look after and more dogs that are at risk of PRA and HD is a good thing unless they are pedigree...in which case thats bad.

:lol:

Sorry but its so damn hypocritical of you its almost unbelievable.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Oh no..I read it.
> 
> It said;
> 
> Followed by an excuse as to why you wont post a how to guide..which in no way mentions a good way to find a reputable breeder. (because its an excuse).


You missed this bit when you selectively quoted my post. It's got some slightly longer words in it but I'm sure you'll manage..

The answer to finding a breeder is the same for any breeder. I don't trust breed clubs or the KC so they're no use, unregulated and self serving. I'd want to see proper and appropriate health testing and both parents and their history. As the KC pedigrees are not reliable but are the only available, an amount of this particular part is on trust (but not the health testing).

I'd want leave to visit the breeder as and when (not at an appointed time) and the opportunity to talk to their vet. In my case the vet visited the breeder regularly.

Shame she's not breeding now really.... these would be my minimum specs.. if a breeder couldn't do that I'd walk.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Oh but you are my hun.
> 
> What solution are you part of then? Creating your own sick dogs from dogs that you state are messed up because of breed clubs. If pedigree's are so ill ect why are you using them to create your crosses that end up with the same problems (except double the risk) as the pedigrees? Surely you would use a straight up mutt.
> 
> ...


You're making up you're own nonsense to get angry about now. You talk riddles and are exceptionally good example of why pedigree dog clubs and the KC have such a poor reputation.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Define top names? I have found that the top kennels in the country within different breeds are often those who dont fully health test or do the bare minimum in tests, have many dogs producing many litters a year.
> 
> Just because a breeder does well in the show ring doesnt make them decent imo, a decent breeder is one who . . . .:


Top names are just that - top names; those that hold recognizable affixes in the breed that win regularly and have their dogs photos featured in dog mags etc.; those that are involved as judges; breed notes writers; and those that sit on the club committees etc.

You and I agree that then these are not really our idea of a reputable breeder (and we each define that in our own way), but to those who don't know how to look at a pedigree and are new to the world of dogs these are the people the clubs are sending them to through their puppy registers.

CC


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> . . .This silly dance we do is the exact reason many of us dont believe reputable breeders in crosses exist. Because its so hard to find them, yet its easy to find a reputable pedigree breeder. . .


Not to get involved with the personal disagreement that seems to be spinning here, but I just have to mention that it is NOT easy to find a pedigree breeder doing all I"d like, or even all that they should to help resolve the current health issues, in MANY breeds - not through the breed clubs - and not through going to shows - not through the ABS - http://www.dogworld.co.uk/Features/31-Atter-(3)?year=2011&month=08

My UK friends speak to the same problem there. That is one reason Margaret Carter set her Cavalier Puppy Buying Advice site - http://cavalierpuppy.co.uk/author/m-carter/

You have to slodge through a lot of the mucky types and ask a zillion questions no matter which route you go about looking for one.

CC


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But above and beyond what any breed club enforces?


Sorry not quite sure what you mean so can't answer


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I don't think you'll find there are many members hanging around in search of a health tested cross breed... if they were they'd be far to hesitant to post.
> 
> The answer to finding a breeder is the same for any breeder. I don't trust breed clubs or the KC so they're no use, unregulated and self serving. I'd want to see proper and appropriate health testing and both parents and their history. As the KC pedigrees are not reliable but are the only available, an amount of this particular part is on trust (but not the health testing).
> 
> ...


hmm but anyone looking for an ethically bred pedigree can do all that and more...also you say KC pedigrees arnt reliable yet you'd want to know the history behind a doodle... their history is likely to far more suspect than any reputably bred pedigree... especially if it has Australian imports from a certain kennel behind it:eek6:.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> Thank you found it incredibly interesting & informative, and really a bit depressing. Confirmed my thought there is effectively no difference


Seem to be moving into my dads bigger than your dad arguments! Would be nice to agree to disagree and learn something :wink:

I have been thinking on the drive home about what I was reading about in/line breeding, on the assumption that you agree the article is accurate (just pretend if you don't) then can't for & against crosses learn from each other? Breeders of the popular cross breeds don't want to fall into the same pitfalls so then in my humble opinion should learn from past mistakes with pedigrees - if fixate purely on health tests other things fall by the wayside. Test yes 100% agree, but need to know how inbred the cross parents are surely.

I was wondering if pedigree a & b are mated, both parents health test fine but are actually both in-bred quite highly what is the result? Good/bad/somewhere in between/god knows?

Pedigrees - working on the basis you agree there are problems (again pretend if you don't) , how is the situation improved, if you are already starting with a limited gene pool add into that the fact more breeders are health testing & presumably removing any not good enough then the gene pool decreases. Then factor in breeding for type, or whatever the term is, eg a dog deemed too tall, tail to fluffy and such, then must limit the gene pool further?

Seems to me from my limited knowledge the problem started by having closed registers, then made worse breeding for looks. So if you have a particular breed with a very limited gene pool thats not no longer viable, should you just let them die out or look at other options? If you need to undertake close in-breeding to keep the breed going how is that ethical?

In the past weren't breeds created anyway by crossing, if it was ok then why not now. So surely pedigree breeders could actually learn something from cross breeding too.

Just my meandering thoughts


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

If you are suspicious about Pedigree Breeders and Breed Clubs and the KC I would suggest visiting some Breed specific forums, there you will see what the owners and Breeders really believe in, I think you will find its respecting and doing what is best for their breed, Health testing, Health Testing and more Health Testing, finding rep breeders, informing would be owners in what to look for when buying a Pup. Here are just a random few
cavalier king charles spaniels forum
Labradors Forums

Take a look at the sites then you will know whats important to owners and Breeders alike, I felt let down by Breeders and the KC when I watched that programme and found out my Cavie had SM, but instead of shouting about it and 'throwing stones' I tried to find out more , the more I found out the more I realised what reputable breeders and the KC are all about. I now have a more rounded view and have gone on to buy 2 Cocker Spaniels (with all relevant health tets and fab temperaments of course) from 2 fabulous breeders one of whom has gone on to mentor me. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you discover


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

jo5 said:


> If you are suspicious about Pedigree Breeders and Breed Clubs and the KC I would suggest visiting some Breed specific forums, there you will see what the owners and Breeders really believe in, I think you will find its respecting and doing what is best for their breed, Health testing, Health Testing and more Health Testing, finding rep breeders, informing would be owners in what to look for when buying a Pup. Here are just a random few
> cavalier king charles spaniels forum
> Labradors Forums
> 
> Take a look at the sites then you will know whats important to owners and Breeders alike, I felt let down by Breeders and the KC when I watched that programme and found out my Cavie had SM, but instead of shouting about it and 'throwing stones' I tried to find out more , the more I found out the more I realised what reputable breeders and the KC are all about. I now have a more rounded view and have gone on to buy 2 Cocker Spaniels (with all relevant health tets and fab temperaments of course) from 2 fabulous breeders one of whom has gone on to mentor me. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you discover


I understand that that was a random Cavalier forum picked, but I have been a member of that forum and many other breed specific Cavalier forums - and if anything the threads on them reveal that one needs be even MORE suspicious of those masquerading as reputable and those in clubs. Lots of snarky deceitfulness revealed there - I have been privy to private law suit emails sent when a pet owner revealed health results - although there are some gems that post as well.

CC


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But only about such "crossbreeders".
> 
> So tell me how I find a reputable KC breeder.


My take would be this to a prospective buyer. Firstly familiarise themselves with all of the available health tests for the breed and how the results are presented. Then sift through breeders to find those which have a litter from parents who have results that will not produce affected dogs and have scores sufficient to minimise the chances of hip and elbow displaysia. Authticate results on the KC website and check to results of previous progeny and health testing behind them. You can also see if the sire is overused. Meet breeder to assess temperament of dam and conditions raised in. Pups should be raised in the home not a shed. Check breeders previous breeding in old copies of the Breed Record Supplement. This will show if they are performing back to back matings and overall volume. Look at parents show results. If they've done well then they are good examples of the breed and should have good temperaments and also be free of serious defects like wry jaws, cranked tails and poor movement. Check pedigree for COI. Ideally below 3% in 5 gens. Ask to speak to previous puppy purchasers. As far as code of ethics are concerned, Champdogs is a good place to start as they will not advertise a litter from a dam who whelped younger than 2 years of age. KC will register from 1 year old. After PDE the KC blanket insisted all breed clubs replace their code of ethics with their own. Ours are now worse. KC ABS are required to health check. However some tests are required and others are optional so it wouldn't sway me personally. However, they are required to hand out all relevant paperwork with puppy when collected.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

potential health issues in the Labrador: 
from AVAR's list of heritable conditions - 
Labrador Retriever: 
3, 7, 9, 9a, 10, 21, 22, 40, 42, 52a, 59, 68, 75, 77, 78, 85, 88, 89, 94, 95, 103, 109, 114a, 121, 122, 129a,
143a, 146, 147, 148, 149, 152, 158, 159a, 160, 166, 192, 193, 194b, 197, 204a, 206a, 221, 221a, 244, 
245, 256, 257, 258, 269, 270, 276, 282, 304a, 312, 315, 330

3. Abnormal dentition: 
abnormal placement, number and development of teeth.
7. Acral lick dermatitis: 
a skin disease caused by an animal's licking a localized area excessively, especially on the legs and paws.

9. Acute moist dermatitis: 
known as "hot spots," a localized area of a severely itchy, inflamed and oozing dermatitis exacerbated 
by the animal's intense licking and chewing at the spot.

*9a. Addison's disease (hypoadrenocorticism):* 
characterized by inadequate secretion of cortisone from the adrenal glands. *Old English Sheepdog,
Standard Poodle & Bearded Collie (also see #159a.)

*10. Allergies: *
same as in humans. Dogs can be allergic to things they come in contact with, eat or inhale.
*21. Atopic dermatitis:* 
a skin disease caused by a dog's reaction to an inhalant allergy.
(also see #81.)
*22. Atopy: *
an allergy caused from things dogs inhale.

40. Carpal subluxation: 
the "wrist" bones are loose and out of alignment.

*42. Cataract: *
as in humans, a change in structure of the lens of the eye leading to cloudiness & usually to blindness.

52a. Chronic progressive hepatitis: 
an uncommon disease sometimes called chronic active hepatitis. *Doberman Pinscher, Dalmatian, Labrador Retriever, 
Golden Retriever, and Shetland Sheepdog (also see #2, 62.)

59. Coloboma: 
an abnormal development of the eye, usually seen in the Collie, which can lead to blindness. (See #58, 60, 203.)

68. Craniomandibular osteopathy: 
an abnormal development of the bones of the face and the jaw. *West Highland White and Cairn Terrier, 
among other breeds.

75. Cystinuria: 
an abnormal excretion of a substance (cystine) in the urine. 
77. Dacryocystitis: inflammation of a tear sac.
78. Deafness: an inability to hear, due to many different causes.

85. Diabetes mellitus: 
a metabolic disease caused by insulin deficiency and
characterized by the inability to utilize sugars normally.

*88. Distichiasis:* abnormally growing eyelashes.
89. Dwarfism: 
an abnormality of the normal growth pattern resulting in an undersized individual.
94. Ectropion: an abnormal rolling out of the eyelids.

95. Elbow dysplasia: an abnormal development of the elbow joint. 
*103. Entropion:* 
an abnormal rolling in of the eyelid. 
*109. Epilepsy: *
a disease characterized by convulsions (seizures) and/or disturbances of consciousness. 
114a. Exercise-induced collapse: 
seen in Cavalier King Charles Spaniel puppies; associated with exercise- or excitement-induced muscle hypertonicity 
(similar to startle disease in people). *Also seen in young adult field trial Labrador Retrievers.
*121. Factor VIII deficiency or hemophilia A: *
the most common severe inherited clotting disorder of humans and animals. The disorder is inherited as a sex-linked
recessive trait (carried by females and manifested in males). Affects most dog breeds.
122. Factor IX deficiency or hemophilia B: 
same as hemophilia A, but rarer and involves a different clotting factor.
129a. Fragmented coronoid process: 
osteochondrosis of the elbow joint. (also see #221a.) 
143a. Hemangiosarcoma: 
a cancer of blood vessels involving liver, spleen or skin. 
*146. Hemolytic anemia: *
anemia caused by the destruction of the red blood cells by an autoimmune process. *Cocker Spaniel & Old English Sheepdogs, 
as well as several other breeds.
*147. Hemophilia A: *
a blood clotting disorder due to deficiency of coagulation factor VIII
(this is the most common type 
of hemophilia in dogs). (also see #121.)
148. Hemophilia B: 
a blood clotting disorder due to lack of coagulation factor IX. (also see #122.)
149. Hepatic portosystemic shunt or arteriovenous fistula: 
a malformation of blood vessels in the liver or abnormal communication between arteries & veins in the liver.
*152. Hip dysplasia: *
a developmental malformation or subluxation of the hip joints.
158. Hypertrophic osteodystrophy: 
a condition of rapidly growing giant breeds where there is an abnormal inflammation of bones with pain 
and development of excessive bony growths.

*159a. Hypoadrenocorticism: *
autoimmune or other causes of destruction of the adrenal glands produces a deficiency of corticosteroids. (also see #9a.)
160. Hypoglycemia: 
abnormally low blood glucose levels.
*166. Hypothyroidism: *
a common endocrine disease where the body produces an abnormally low amount of thyroid hormones. 
This is an autoimmune destruction of the thyroid gland which affects more than 50 dog breeds. (also see #192, 312.)
*192. Lymphocytic thyroiditis: *
an autoimmune disease causing inflammation and destruction of the thyroid gland, which becomes infiltrated 
with lymphocytes (white blood cells) and leads to hypothyroidism. This is the most common endocrine disease 
of the dog and has an inherited predisposition. (also see #166, 312.)
193. Lymphosarcoma: 
a cancerous condition involving the lymphatic system. This is one of the more common canine cancers. 
194b. Malignant hyperthermia: 
an autosomal dominant trait of the black Labrador Retriever. Very high body temperatures develop in response 
to gaseous anesthesia.
197. Melanoma: 
a rare cancer developing from the type of skin cell which produces pigment (melanin).
204a. Muscular dystrophy: 
a congenital and often inherited form of generalized muscle dysfunction which causes signs such as poor growth, 
weakness, abnormal gait, difficulty eating and swallowing, and muscle atrophy. Affected animals have serious
health problems and may die or be euthanatized. Inheritance is sex-linked in the Golden Retriever, Irish Terrier, 
Samoyed & Belgian Shepherd.
206a.Myotonia congenita: 
a condition present at birth characterized by tonic muscle contractions and twitching. *Miniature Schnauzer
*221. Osteochondritis dissecans: *
a specific form of inflammation of the cartilage of certain joints which causes arthritis. (also see #221a.)
*221a. Osteochondrosis: *
a group of developmental diseases resulting in abnormal formulation of joint cartilage. Commonly involves 
the shoulder, stifle, hock or elbow. (also see #221.)
244. Persistent hyaloid artery: 
as #243, however, involving a blood vessel inside the eye.
*245. Persistent pupillary membrane: *
a developmental abnormality where the membrane forming the iris does not form properly.
*256. Progressive retinal atrophy: *
a disease where the retina slowly deteriorates, first producing night blindness, then total blindness.
257. Prolapsed rectum: 
the inside of the rectum protrudes outside the anus.
258. Prolapsed uterus: 
the uterus protrudes into the vaginal canal or through the vaginal opening.
*269. Retinal detachment:* 
the retina is unattached to the back of the eye.
270. Retinal dysplasia: 
the retina is malformed.
276. Seborrhea: 
a skin disease with excess scaling of the skin and often an excess of sebum (oil-like substance) and odor.
282. Shoulder dysplasia: a looseness of the shoulder joint.
304a. Syncope: 
a brief period of fainting or collapse. (also see #206a.)
*312. Thyroiditis: *
an autoimmune inflammatory disease of the thyroid gland. (also see #166, 192.)
315. Type II muscle fiber deficiency: 
a deficiency in form and/or function of a specific type of muscle fiber.
*330. von Willebrand's disease: *
a bleeding disorder caused by defective blood-platelet function (an autosomal trait affecting both sexes). 
*Occurs in 59 dog breeds, but most often in the Doberman Pinscher

potential health-issues in the Standard Poodle: 
9a, 10, 21, 22, 27, 31, 42, 61, 81, 88, 103, 109, 110, 121, 124a, 135, 140, 144, 146, 147, 152, 159a, 166, 
175, 184, 186, 192, 199, 220, 221, 221a, 223, 230, 245, 256, 269, 273a, 311a, 312, 330
*not listed under Labs:*
27. Behavioral abnormalities: 
a whole range of abnormal behavior patterns, such as aggression, panic disorders, etc., obsessive compulsive 
disorders like spinners or tail chasing, and pica seen in the Bull Terrier.

31. Bloat: 
a dog's stomach produces excessive gas and enlarges severely enough to cause death without immediate treatment. 
Bloat is usually associated with gastric torsion. (also see #131.)
61. Color mutant alopecia: 
a condition where certain pigmented areas of a dog's skin grow less or no fur. *YorkshireTerrier and fawn Irish Setter
81. Dermatitis, atopic: 
inflammation and subsequent infection of the skin due to atopy. (also see #21, 22.)
110. Epiphora: 
abnormal draining of tears often due to overproduction.
124a. Factor XII deficiency: 
a clotting factor deficiency that rarely produces clinical signs, which is usually diagnosed incidentally during 
blood testing for potential bleeding disorder. *Toy and Standard poodle, and occasionally in other breeds 
135. Glaucoma: 
abnormally high pressure inside the eye-globe; very painful, untreated it results in blindness. 
140. Granulomatous sebaceous adenitis: 
a disease of sebaceous (sweat) skin glands characterized by reactive tissue growth and autoimmune destruction 
of the sebaceous glands. Hair loss occurs and is poorly responsive to treatment. *Standard Poodle,
Akita, Samoyed and Vizsla 
144. Hemeralopia: 
inability to see in daylight. 
175. Iris atrophy: 
the iris (the colored part of the eye) shrinks and becomes non-functional.
184. Lacrimal duct atresia: 
the duct draining tears from the eye is too small or not formed.
186. Lens luxation: 
the lens in the eye is displaced into an abnormal position.
199. Microphthalmia: 
one or both eyes are too small.
220. Optic nerve hypoplasia: 
the optic nerve going from the eye to the brain is too small.
223. Osteogenesis imperfecta: 
imperfect development of the structure and/or mineralization of the bones.
230. Pannus: 
an immunologic eye disease characterized by abnormal growth of tissue over the cornea.

*duplicates - where the 2 breeds double-up:*
9a, 10, 21, 22, 42, 88, 103, 109, 121, 146, 147, 152, 159a, 166, 192, 221, 221a, 245, 256, 269, 312, 330 
*above under LABRADOR in bold-face.*

tests recommended: 
- get to 2-YO before considering breeding: 
* over 85% of all heritable conditions which will affect a dog will show symptoms by 24-MO. 
* waiting to breed for the first time until 2-YO adds an average *two years* to the pups' lives. 
they literally live longer - with no other intervention.

- DNA test for carrier status of PRA 
- ditto for cataracts 
- eye-certificates beginning at 12-MO, repeated annually 
- Penn-HIP [preferably] rating for hips of both prospective sire AND dam 
- elbow rads read by Penn-HIP on the Lab-parent 
- Seb-A skin punches [3, full-depth] on the Poodle parent 
- vWD bloodwork 
- full thyroid panel [5-way] on both dogs 
- Hemophilia-A, both dogs 
- clotting-factor XII test in the Poodle parent


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by leashedForLife
> 
> get the breed-clubs to get serious about mandatory testing & create open-registries for the results.





Elmo the Bear said:


> The testing has to be regulated otherwise its meaningless.


no, it's NOT meaningless.

it's *optional*. if U want a dog from tested parents, *find a breeder who tests their dogs before breeding.* 
patronizing the breeders who do the right thing supports them NOW - even tho it's optional. 
voting with Ur wallet puts money in the pockets of ethical breeders, & diverts it from unethical breeders.

if U buy a pup from breeders who don't test, U are supporting what U claim not to want: pups without any proof 
of their risk for specific heritable conditions.

U have a cross-breed dog, i presume? 
did the breeder do any tests? if not, why did U buy that puppy?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> ...KC pedigrees are not reliable but are the only available, ...this particular part is on trust...


U don't have to trust the breeder. Get DNA-profiles done on dam & sire, by a vet - & U pay half. 
do a cheek-swab on Ur own pup & send it off. The resulting profiles will show clearly if this pup could 
be the product of that mating - or not.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Ta LeashedforLife very in depth! Assume answering one of my questions thought not sure. 

Just supposing though you had pedigree a & b both had all the tests in your lists & produce fine healthy labradoodle pups, compare that to pedigree a & aa mating, same breed to produce pedigrees. Both parents had the standard recommended tests for that breed both passed but both have considerable "line" breeding, which out of the two options is preferable and why?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Ta LeashedforLife very in depth!
> Assume answering one of my questions [though] not sure.


no, it wasn't in reply to Ur post.


DoodlesRule said:


> Just supposing though you had pedigree a & b both had all the tests in your lists & produce fine
> healthy labradoodle pups, compare that to pedigree a & aa mating, same breed to produce pedigrees.
> Both parents had the standard recommended tests for that breed both passed but both have considerable "line" breeding,
> which out of the two options is preferable and why?


someone else can tackle this - it's not a quiz, & i've already invested considerable time on that 
'testing & heritable conditions' post.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I know someone who has a Mal from health tested parents with severe HD - can happen, it may be rare but can and does happen. There are a few on the Mal forum with high scores from health tested parents and they are a relatively rare breed compared to labs, goldens etc. As we all know health testing lessens the risk but doesn't totally eliminate it, it just isn't fool proof. 

I believe there are a couple on here too with other breeds who have experienced the same.


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

Elmo the Bear said:


> You really should qualify all the above with the words "I believe that". It's written as a statement of fact which, of course, it is not.


Show me UK KC breeds without a breed standard? FACT - at present - a Labrador or Goldie Poodle Cross can look like a Labrador, Goldie, poodle or somewhere inbetween - the evidence is ALL around us - and by their own admission, many of the people who buy these crosses do so for these very reasons.

When you breed, you have to understand to the best of you ability, the genetics around these health conditions - a gene predisposing some dogs within both breeds to HD is there - in the absence of DNA testing - Hip Scoring is what we have to work with, same for Elbow Scoring and DNA testing for PRA - again present in both dogs.

Then you have other conditions, at present unique to each breed - so, unless a dominant gene, they will not affect first generation crosses (that's not to say it couldn't throw up conditions we are not wholly aware of yet because it could). -

Then you have Labrador specific conditions which are DNA tested for - CNM really isn't very pleasant - affected puppies will hardly ever make it out of a litter - there are a number of skin and eye problems for Poodles which aren't inherent in Labradors - if the genes for these conditions are recessive, they will never exist in a first generation cross - in theory, re-enforcing the hybrid vigour theory (but that doesn't necessarily mean a healthy dog because you still have commonality between the breeds).

There is emerging empirical and anecdotal evidence saying that first generation crosses are more prone to joint problems - on the reasoning and evidence behind it I don't have the information to hand, but I am sure more evidence will become available in time. There are people on here and other forums with crosses whose dogs have gone on to develop Hip Dysplasia.

===================================

The second you bring two crosses together - if all the originating dogs aren't DNA tested for recessive conditions (free by absence doesn't mean genetically free - a dog can be genetically affected for PRA but never lose it's sight - a dog can have dysplastic hips and never show any symptoms) - but again - if these dogs haven't been tested - the next generation of puppies could all be affected 

Sadly - it is also fact that many (not all - but a large majority) of these cross-breeds are started from poorly bred unhealth-tested dogs - because most good pedigree breeders on all the breeds simply won't be associated with cross-breeding, and I suspect, little would persuade them to the contrary. I am aware of well bred health tested dogs who have been used to produce these crosses - but they remain the exception rather than the rule 

With regards to the gene-pool - without a willingness of more good breeders to support good 1st generation quality crosses - it stands to reason that the originating gene pool will very quickly diminish once it has closed.

Labradors have themselves been interbred with other retrievers in the past to prevent their demise - but that's breeding 'type' to 'type' and as well as prevention of extinction, sometimes logical reasons are put forward for type to type breeding to try and erradicate certain health problems.

Some of the assistance dog organisations produce crosses - Labs x Goldies being one of them - but again, it is type to type of very similar dogs with similar characteristics and abilities, and perhaps unsurprisingly, the health conditions they are tested for.

If you get say 4 generations down with Labradoodles in a closed gene pool - and need help to prevent the 'breeds' extinction, where do you go then? - you can't bring in new first generation crosses because the large majority, if none at all, are unlikely to be anywhere near the formalised breed standard.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Malmum said:


> I know someone who has a Mal from health tested parents with severe HD - [it] can happen,
> it may be rare but can and does happen.


the current best-estimate in genetics is that hip-dysplasia is 40% genetics & 60% environment/nutrition.

IOW if both the pup's parents score 'excellent', but the large-breed pup is reared on hardwood floors, 
fed puppy-formula for 6-mos, & bulked-up as a young puppy, the parent's scores can't save the pup's joints. 
genetics can only do so much; TRACTION, feeding, overloading young growing joints, repetitive stress 
[running on paving], are all up to the puppy raiser.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> no, it wasn't in reply to Ur post.
> 
> someone else can tackle this - it's not a quiz, & i've already invested considerable time on that
> 'testing & heritable conditions' post.




I wasn't asking for a quiz I was trying to learn from your point of view, don't be so patronising. I suspect you dismiss me because you are a senior member and I'm not, does not mean I am stupid though, you know nothing about me. Not sure how ratings work here but assume to do with how many postings - could post utter piffle merely to up ones rating and be senior, vip, dogs whatsits so possibly does not mean a great deal really does it. No, I do not require an answer from you/your opinion on that.

Some of your posts I have read are food for thought even informative, yet more often than not you come across as dismissive, arrogant, aggressive, rude and downright pig ignorant (English phrases so if that doesn't come across well to US translation, sorry, but you seem to take no account of culture difference so why shoud I). As a result your posts that may be useful can quite easily be dismissed simply due to your attitude in the main.

Have noticed you haven't answered any of my questions directly. Answer just one please - going back to way back on this thread which started with your original post. If supposed originator of Doodles/crosses has regrets, I asked if you thought that if any of the originators of todays pedigree breeds was still around today, do you think they would have regrets how things have turned out?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> I wasn't asking for a quiz I was trying to learn from your point of view, don't be so patronising.
> *I suspect you dismiss me because you are a senior member and I'm not*...


no - i don't. It has zip to do with whatever ranking hooey.

it's because i have no interest in writing an essay on: 


> Originally Posted by DoodlesRule
> Just supposing though you had pedigree a & b both had all the tests in your lists & produce fine
> healthy labradoodle pups, compare that to pedigree a & aa mating, same breed to produce pedigrees.
> Both parents had the standard recommended tests for that breed both passed but both have considerable "line" breeding,
> which out of the two options is preferable and why?


if someone else wants to write about it, they are perfectly welcome.


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## bearcub (Jul 19, 2011)

This has nothing to do with me and everyone's welcome to tell me to butt out but I just wanted to say that I always find LFL's posts very helpful and interesting, never dismissive or arrogant and I really appreciate the effort put into them


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

bearcub said:


> This has nothing to do with me and everyone's welcome to tell me to butt out but I just wanted to say that I always find LFL's posts very helpful and interesting, never dismissive or arrogant and I really appreciate the effort put into them


Maybe true perhaps you have read more than I have, I did say some are informative and thought provoking.

There was one earlier today though where advice given to someone admitting they had not given enough training to a one year old dog & asking for help was "you are obviously defeatist, kill the dog now" yep, very helpful/interesting and a huge amount of effort went into that one.

I asked how would feel if OP had taken literally and done just that. LFL's answer to my question was? Err complete silence - don't think those sort of challenges warrant an answer do they really can't post a link to anything


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> There was one earlier today though where advice given to someone admitting they had not given enough training
> to a one year old dog & asking for help was "you are obviously defeatist, kill the dog now"
> yep, very helpful/interesting and a huge amount of effort went into that one.


so not only are folks who reply to write the equal of a book, except *shorter* so the OP needn't waste time 
reading it... but nobody is allowed to get bloody exasperated with dog-owners who created their own problems, 
& now want instant results? 

actually, HERE's what the OP posted, & my reply - 


> Originally Posted by easty46
> 
> well, knobs would stop him getting out, I guess - but [knobs won't] stop him trying [to open doors],
> & scratching... the paintwork... We need to stop him trying, [both] when we are [at home] and [when we're] not [at home].





leashedForLife said:


> if U are going to be so bloody self-defeating, just kill the dog & be done with it.
> 
> YOU bought a puppy approx 10-months ago, *did not teach him any manners,* & now it's the dog's fault.
> sorry, that won't wash; YOU have let him practice digging at the door handles to escape for months on end.
> ...


i have no ambitions to be a saint; YES, BUT... owners who make any suggestion impossible, for one reason 
or another, drive me bonkers. i meet them in real-life, too; there's always a reason that altho it worked for other 
people, it could not possibly work for them or their dog [cat, parrot, horse...].

and for what it might be worth, i *did* give the OP other advice, too - which they may or may not take, 
just as they may or may not take anyone else's suggestions. It may be too much trouble, too awkward, 
too complex, embarrassing, ... who knows. People use it, or they don't - it's a choice.

folks who blame the dog get short shrift from me, too. *behavior is a conversation.* the dog is only one side 
of the exchange; their behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum. What we do helps create the dog's behavior. Nobody 
gets a free-pass because they are the human, who can verbalize & rationalize, & the dog is the Bad-Guy.


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## jo5 (Jun 22, 2011)

comfortcreature said:


> I understand that that was a random Cavalier forum picked, but I have been a member of that forum and many other breed specific Cavalier forums - and if anything the threads on them reveal that one needs be even MORE suspicious of those masquerading as reputable and those in clubs. Lots of snarky deceitfulness revealed there - I have been privy to private law suit emails sent when a pet owner revealed health results - although there are some gems that post as well.
> 
> CC


Then I apologise I am not or never have been a member of either of those forums I just picked at Random but feel free to visit another and I think you will see that owners do care about where their dogs came from, what tests were done, what the COI is and their temperaments and strive to do their best for their breed


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> I have been privy to private law suit emails sent when a pet owner revealed health results - although there are some gems that post as well.


 they are on a PUBLIC freely available website  and have been for a very long time now


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

swarthy said:


> they are on a PUBLIC freely available website  and have been for a very long time now


. . . and? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

To explain better, a pet owner revealed her dog had SM. At an earlier time on other threads she had bragged on her puppy's breeding giving parents names. When she revealed that her dog had SM - yes publicly as it was on a thread - the breeders of her dogs threatened her with legal action. The threats were made privately . . . however.

That was one circumstance where I got to read the messages sent to the owner. I've been told of many others, and also been privy to a conversation where breeders were threatening each other. They didn't realize they were posting publicly and the conversation was quickly deleated when it was found out! I have it on print screen as I well imagined that is what was going on.

What difference does it make that some of these forums are public or freely available?

Is not openness and transparency about health difficulties a good thing? It is not less than an expectation for me.

CC


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> When she revealed that her dog had SM ... the breeders of her dogs threatened her with legal action.


HOW can they 'threaten legal action'?

either the owner's vet has diagnosed syringomyelia, or they did not. 
if they did Dx it, that's an undeniable fact. FACTS are not something that i think one can sue over.

alleging something which is *not true - * stating a falsehood - i can see as a lawsuit. 
but a lawsuit against the *facts* is IMO asinine & only gives the facts more public attention.

what did the breeders think they'd get from a lawsuit? A spontaneous cure? 
public sympathy? i don't understand the reasoning.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

I have no clue what grounds they THINK they had to stand on . . . but I believe the threats were empty - just something that had worked before to serve an end. As I read the initial contact the problem they had was that their 'affix' had been sullied and should not have been announced at any point on a public forum as per contract. I never asked her if this wording was in her contract as our conversation went in a different direction (finding pedigree info), but I've heard it is in some. She was threatened enough that she went back and amended all the threads where the parent dog's registered names had been mentioned. I understand from others that she was not the first one this happened to.

Hanging out on public or private breed specific forums while studying breeds has not made me more enamoured with those that are the breed's caretakers . . . . in fact it has done quite the opposite. It revealed quickly, in a couple of breeds, that there are coven's of breeders that I would not want the slightest to do with, and sometimes those are pervasive in their influence with tentacles everywhere.

After an initial repulsion to the full pedigree scene, I have learned to admire those working quietly amidst them. Wish they were brave enough to be louder.

I borrowed the word 'coven' from this blog, as it is such an appropriate word for what I've seen. http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/08/cavaliers-agony-and-agony.html#comments

CC


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> so not only are folks who reply to write the equal of a book, except *shorter* so the OP needn't waste time
> reading it... but nobody is allowed to get bloody exasperated with dog-owners who created their own problems,
> & now want instant results?
> 
> ...


Pah load of tosh, I will keep it brief as you admit you don't like books - no need to be a saint, just polite. No it is not excusable to be exasperated with someone you do not know on the internet, you have no idea what led them to the position they are in now. You may come across people in real life (ha how often) but this is not real life is it, so you should take more care :hand:

& despite all your waffle, you still did not answer my question - yes or no will do I don't need War & Peace!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> Pah load of tosh, I will keep it brief as *you admit you don't like books*...


i referred to *writing the equivalent of a book of advice - * but dessicating it so that the OP 
doesn't have to spend real time reading it.

i happen to love books - i have over 200 dog-books as just one category. 


DoodlesRule said:


> No it is not excusable to be exasperated with someone you do not know on the internet, you have no idea
> what led them to the position they are in now.


too bad - i get exasperated. U don't wanna read it, put me on 'ignore'. 


DoodlesRule said:


> ...you still did not answer my question - yes or no will do[,] I don't need War & Peace!


it is not a YES or NO question.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Posting and probably b*ggering off to bed fairly shortly, had a long weekend, but very good fun.

It never ceases to amaze me how much people talk out of their posterior when it comes to breeding. There is one way to find a good breeder, examine what they do, and how they go about it. It has to be said, there is more 'evidence' of this for pedigree breeders, than cross breeders, and yet it can still be difficult (sorry, don't agree with some who've posted it's easy) to find a good litter of pups. It's been asked numerous times about the cross breeders, and it must be immensely difficult, I know I've looked in the past to satisfy my curiosity, and there seem to be all the usual short cuts taken. 

Can I just say at this point in time, there is someone I admire immensely on this forum, who has done such a lot of work to support the right sort of breeder, Sarah, or Sezra, had her heart set on a cross breed, and also had her heart set on supporting the right sort of breeder. If only everyone had the same set of morals when it came to buying a dog. 

Elmo, I think I've explained to you in the past why health testing can't be made compulsory, nor can the results be made compulsory, either you're struggling to understand, or you just like spouting this point over and over. If you'd like me to explain yet again for you why compulsory health testing and results wouldn't work, I will, otherwise just use the advanced search facility


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> i referred to *writing the equivalent of a book of advice - * but dessicating it so that the OP
> doesn't have to spend real time reading it.
> 
> i happen to love books - i have over 200 dog-books as just one category.
> ...


If you come across as rude and aggressive your advice, whether good, bad or indifferent, is lost which is a pity as occasionally you have something sensible to say.

"It is not a yes or no question", why, was a fairly straight forward question? - your original post was that that wally whatshisname regretted "creating" Labradoodles. I asked if you thought as pedigrees date back to crosses originally, if those creators were still around in view of issues in some breeds nowadays do you think they too would have regrets. Yes or no - or even at a push maybe?? Presumably they are all dead so no quotes to link to, so for once your honest personal opinion on something :wink:


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Posting and probably b*ggering off to bed fairly shortly, had a long weekend, but very good fun.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how much people talk out of their posterior when it comes to breeding. There is one way to find a good breeder, examine what they do, and how they go about it. It has to be said, there is more 'evidence' of this for pedigree breeders, than cross breeders, and yet it can still be difficult (sorry, don't agree with some who've posted it's easy) to find a good litter of pups. It's been asked numerous times about the cross breeders, and it must be immensely difficult, I know I've looked in the past to satisfy my curiosity, and there seem to be all the usual short cuts taken.
> 
> ...


Oi thanks very much

I thought you knew better and thought I was a fair person


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> If you come across as rude and aggressive your advice, whether good, bad or indifferent, is lost which is a pity as occasionally you have something sensible to say.
> 
> "It is not a yes or no question", why, was a fairly straight forward question? - your original post was that that wally whatshisname regretted "creating" Labradoodles. I asked if you thought as pedigrees date back to crosses originally, if those creators were still around in view of issues in some breeds nowadays do you think they too would have regrets. Yes or no - or even at a push maybe?? Presumably they are all dead so no quotes to link to, so for once your honest personal opinion on something :wink:


Can I ask you what your perception of pedigree creation is, do you really think there was a jumbley mish mash of dogs that people thought, well let's bung that one and that one together and it might work?

Pedigrees have been bred to type for hundreds of years, some for over a thousand years, and new pedigrees have been created by choosing different types of dog to create a dog fit for a particular purpose. That's hardly the same as someone thinking it's a great idea to stick to completely different pedigrees together for a marketing gimmick, and I am thinking of one particular breeder here.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

DoodlesRule said:


> ...as pedigrees *date back to crosses originally*...


pedigree dogs Did Not 'come from' crosses - pariah dogs became landraces. 
landraces became breed prototypes; the Tibetan Mastiff in their home-range is a landrace. 
landraces were the root of the modern breeds. 


DoodlesRule said:


> ...for once your honest personal opinion on something :wink:


there's a truckload of *my honest personal opinion* all over the Forum.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Posting and probably b*ggering off to bed fairly shortly, had a long weekend, but very good fun.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how much people talk out of their posterior when it comes to breeding. There is one way to find a good breeder, examine what they do, and how they go about it. It has to be said, there is more 'evidence' of this for pedigree breeders, than cross breeders, and yet it can still be difficult (sorry, don't agree with some who've posted it's easy) to find a good litter of pups. It's been asked numerous times about the cross breeders, and it must be immensely difficult, I know I've looked in the past to satisfy my curiosity, and there seem to be all the usual short cuts taken.
> 
> ...


I got a very loverly message from Sarah asking me to edit her post, as she hadn't stuck it out for the breeder she initially wanted to 'support', but had instead chosen to buy daisy from a different breeder, who health tests, and who obviously takes back pups that don't work in their homes, so Sarah, you STILL supported someone who doesn't contribute to the rescue crisis, and although they maybe weren't the *ideal* breeder, I STILL think you did good, if everyone put as much time and effort into the research and decision, even though it all went a bit different at the end point for you, bad breeding would be a thing of the past. I can't even begin to recall all the emails I've sent to try and help people buy a Labrador pup from a good breeder, only to know they've gone to the breeder who just replied yep, got one here and it's £X amount. 



Cockerpoo lover said:


> Oi thanks very much
> 
> I thought you knew better and thought I was a fair person


Aw hen, I was posting quickly last night, I could name so many people on here including you who promote good breeding (and I know you've had a bit of stick for your views as well), it wasn't intentional to leave you out, I was just pointing out that it can be done with the one example


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> Is not openness and transparency about health difficulties a good thing? It is not less than an expectation for me.


of course it's a good thing - but if the prospective owner had done their research and READ the dogs paperwork - they will find out MOST of what they need to know about the dogs health tests and DNA status.

I've got a PRA carrier bitch here - it's on her Champdogs page, her KC records and any puppies she has - it will be on their paperwork as well - so clearly I would only ever mate her to a PRA clear - guaranteeing unaffected offspring.

A lot of people shout "view the certificates" - my point is always - LOOK at the puppies paperwork - if you have done your research for the breed, you can ASK the breeder why a dog isn't health tested for a condition you know is inherent in the breed.

I never ever once said that open-ness is not good - but I am sick to the back teeth of stressing that puppy buyers have as much obligation to do their research before buying a puppy of any breed - just looking at the majority of breed clubs websites - found quickly and easily on Google with something along the lines of [Breed] Breed club.

I don't do CKC - and in less than a minute I've found these for the breed

The offical website of The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club of the UK.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniels in the UK

Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Breed Standard - The Kennel Club

So whilst I have seen it can be difficult for some breeds - CKC are not one of them.

I would be interested to hear from any CKC members whether SM is now added to their dogs health test records and therefore their own and any progeny paperwork from the KC.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

swarthy said:


> . . .but if the prospective owner had done their research and READ the dogs paperwork - they will find out MOST of what they need to know about the dogs health tests and DNA status.
> . . ....


Ummm. This is not the case in the USA and to the best of my knowledge even in the UK it is only eye results that are given. In the USA the dog's paperwork, as registered by the AKC provides none of this information. If you want to see a fine example of just how much a club can downplay problems just have a good look at the ACKCSC website - American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club - Notice prevalence of conditions are not mentioned, and nor are the recommended by researcher protocols. Its all about breed and club promotion.

Ethical guidelines are a fun read too - Ethical Guidelines | Club Info



swarthy said:


> . . .I never ever once said that open-ness is not good - but I am sick to the back teeth of stressing that puppy buyers have as much obligation to do their research before buying a puppy of any breed - just looking at the majority of breed clubs websites - found quickly and easily on Google with something along the lines of [Breed] Breed club..


Here you and I will disagree as I really get sick of seeing this put back on owners that end up with sick dogs from registries that have put the word out that they offer the topline product. Umbrella registries have marketed their product as 'healthier' and 'more worthy of purchase' for decades now. Prospective *first time* dog owners believe the stamp of approval called registration comes with some merit behind the breeder as they are told over and over and over again in many places that 'those' are the breeders deserving of support and the other way of acquiring dogs (as they used to) is all wrong.

Do I want the word to get out that puppy buyers need to research about breed health problems? Of course . . . but do you SEE where registries are helping to get this word out? I've yet to.

You can shout all you want that buyers should know better than to be so naive, and that they should know to research, but they do not. Many, many people are NOT involved in the dog world and buy maybe one or two dogs in their lifetime. An expectation that they know the ins and outs of the dog world is quite ridiculous as far as I am concerned.

As per our history when you got a pup you got it from someone you knew or in your own community. Registries changed that up and encouraged finding 'registered' dogs with pedigrees for both their predictability and because they are supposed to be better bred. That means 'healthier' to most. That message has eminated from both the purebred world and rescue world for a couple of decades now. With that change up those registries and the clubs within, who have done the promotion of that message have an obligation to task their clubs and breeders better and stand behind their product. It is their efforts in promoting the product that they have that have created an environment where people purchase from those that they do not know and I put the best part of the onus on those registries and clubs to be doing better - even if it means that alongside the promotion of their product they should just as loudly that their stamp of approval means very little.



swarthy said:


> . I don't do CKC - and in less than a minute I've found these for the breed
> 
> The offical website of The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club of the UK.
> 
> ...


It is not. The ONLY requirement for Cavaliers is for eyes. Please see this blog for details of how 'adding' SM to health test records has been going - politically. - Pedigree Dogs Exposed - The Blog: Cavaliers - the agony and the agony

The UK Clubs have done well over the last few years at having information available for those that look for it. Before that they sucked. They really did, right up until 2007/8 they did from my memory.

The two American Clubs still suck. They don't tell about protocols. In December of 2009 the ACKCSC still had repeated on their sight about SM that _"This condition [SM] is known to affect less than 0.002 % of Cavalier King Charles Spaniels so you have a very good chance that your Cavalier will not have this condition."_ - ACKCSC Claims Less Than 0.002% of CKCSs Have SM!

This was a message a well respected and involved breeder had kept on her sight since before 2000. Those not involved would have no reason to disbelieve this stat and look further.

It is mostly through concerned pet owners efforts that the news of difficulties in health of Cavaliers became widespread. Many of those within clubs were/are quite content to downplay the prevalence of the condtions in the breed (and on lists I have been privy to many of these conversations since 2004) and the need for testing.

The breeding of underage dogs (by protocol) is not discouraged and in fact is often found excuse for and mentored - apparently it is 'tradition' to prove a stud at 9 months.(for ex. - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals). Brags about litters don't include ages of parent dogs, and if a pet owner dares to speak out about young dogs used they can count on an onslought of condemnation from breeder friends about their ignorance as they have no experience - of course. That exact conversation is going on an SM list at this moment.

CavalierHealth.org Editorials

CC


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> Ummm. This is not the case in the USA and to the best of my knowledge even in the UK it is only eye results that are given.


Your knowledge of the UK is well behind the times - there has been an online database around for a number of years listing ALL health results - it's recently been updated to include siblings, progeny, parents - THE LOT - Hip scores, elbow scores, DNA results, annual eye tests and any other recordable tests logged by the UK KC. There are a few minor ommissions such as alternative eye-testing to the BVA which are recorded on the database but not displayed on the database - but these are the exception to the rule.

For the large majority of tests, the results are automatically sent to the UK KC - and paperwork for KC registered dogs is mandatory at the time of testing, as is the dog being microchipped for ALL recoded tests, so hiding them is NOT an option.

In addition to the above, every pup's paperwork has the parents names and ALL their recorded health-tests as logged onto the KC databases - plus any hereditarily clearances for the pups.



comfortcreature said:


> The UK Clubs have done well over the last few years at having information available for those that look for it. Before that they sucked. They really did, right up until 2007/8 they did from my memory.


You know EVERY club for all 250 or so breeds in the UK? you are good - I can't speak for all breeds, but I know when I've searched for information for people looking for other breeds - I've seldom struggled and always been able to get answers - the Labrador Clubs have a strict code of ethics, and do now, and certainly for as long as I've been in the breed, have always promoted the required health-tests, just as I was aware when we owned an Alsation over 20 years ago.

As for exonerating puppy buyers of all responsibility - they do their research when they buy a TV, a fridge, a toaster, a kettle, a house, a car, an Internet provider, a computer, but they don't when they are buying a living breathing creature who will hopefully be a constant companion for the next 8 to 17/18 years dependent on breed - and you think that in the days of the 24/7 super highway - that this is STILL acceptable.

Many people don't go out and buy a toaster or a kettle without knowing exactly what they want - but they do when they are spending several hundred pounds on a pup  and as for the lengths people go to when buying a vacuum cleaner or a washing machine - or a week long holiday - but nope - it's OK to make a purchase of a long term constant in your life without doing anything 

ETA - I am aware there is an extensive freely available database in the US - but I do have a suspicion that submitting results is voluntary

http://www.offa.org/

Although whether submission is mandatory or optional, it widely covers a lot of breeds and their related health-tests under each area.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

swarthy said:


> Your knowledge of the UK is well behind the times - there has been an online database around for a number of years listing ALL health results - it's recently been updated to include siblings, progeny, parents - THE LOT - Hip scores, elbow scores, DNA results, annual eye tests and any other recordable tests logged by the UK KC. There are a few minor ommissions such as alternative eye-testing to the BVA which are recorded on the database but not displayed on the database - but these are the exception to the rule.
> 
> For the large majority of tests, the results are automatically sent to the UK KC - and paperwork for KC registered dogs is mandatory at the time of testing, as is the dog being microchipped for ALL recoded tests, so hiding them is NOT an option.
> 
> In addition to the above, every pup's paperwork has the parents names and ALL their recorded health-tests as logged onto the KC databases - plus any hereditarily clearances for the pups.


Sorry but if this is what you are referring to - Health Test Results Finder - The ONLY recommended test is eyes and the only results given are for eyes. Maybe it is not and if so please explain.

From this list - http://www.cavaliers.co.uk/results/winsbyname11.htm - I can type in names and find only eye results, and many times not even those - Here is a top dog's (eye clear) to see for yourself - http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx



> You know EVERY club for all 250 or so breeds in the UK? you are good


I was clearly referring to Cavalier clubs - and yes I know all those and which breeders are on boards etc. in the UK.



> As for exonerating puppy buyers of all responsibility - they do their research when they buy a TV, a fridge, a toaster, a kettle, a house, a car, an Internet provider, a computer, but they don't when they are buying a living breathing creature who will hopefully be a constant companion for the next 8 to 17/18 years dependent on breed - and you think that in the days of the 24/7 super highway - that this is STILL acceptable.


I don't exonerate puppy buyers of all responsibility. I also don't turn it back on them when they have found themselves with a sick dog as I fully understand not knowing so much research is needed. I said in fact -_ I put the *best part of the onus* on those registries and clubs to be doing better - even if it means that alongside the promotion of their product they should just as loudly that their stamp of approval means very little._. That says much different than what you have interpreted.



> ETA - I am aware there is an extensive freely available database in the US - but I do have a suspicion that submitting results is voluntary
> 
> http://www.offa.org/.


It is voluntary.

CC


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## swarthy (Apr 24, 2010)

comfortcreature said:


> Sorry but if this is what you are referring to - Health Test Results Finder - The ONLY recommended test is eyes and the only results given are for eyes. Maybe it is not and if so please explain.
> 
> CC


You are talking about ONE breed - and I have openly said (you even quoted me) that I did NOT know the situation with regards to SM and CKC's and asked if someone involved in the breed can clarify.

The Health test result finder lists around 6 health tests for Labs which are automatically listed IF they are done - but I would go to the breed club for advice on required health tests - and use the databse to look at the dogs.

ETA - the Accredited Breeder scheme requires eye testing and strongly recommends 
1) Breed club - heart testing (mitral valve dysplasia)
2) Breed club - advice re Syringomyelia

Just as for Labs it recommended Elbows and DNA testing for PRA - it doesn't mean someone only has to do the basics - I do not know enough about CKC's to comment on what's happening within breed clubs - but they advise the KC on how breeders should be going - if I was looking for a pup of a breed outside my own - I would be looking at the mandatory tests and then researching the 'recommended' to try and understand the implications of what those tests actually mean - and the implications of them being done (or not as the case may be).


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> of course it's a good thing - but if the prospective owner had done their research and READ the dogs paperwork - they will find out MOST of what they need to know about the dogs health tests and DNA status.


Swarthy, I posted in response to this initially . . . . and yes I was posting about the breed I know as the comments were about a Cavalier owner who you seemed to have judged to have not done their research and homework.

My comment is that for some breeds and clubs that homework is made more obvious. For others the clubs are not doing their jobs - obviously. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I know some clubs are better than others.

CC


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