# a few questions



## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

My girl Elsa is 4. And we do not know the exact date she got pregnant
She is now very round and today she is very quiet. She's sleeping alot upstairs. When she comes down she comes over to me for some affection the goes and lies on the rug in the living room and will just lie there while my daughter plays around her. She she will go back upstairs to sleep. She hasn't eaten today. 
Last night she was trying to get into corners of the living room. Places she's never been interested in previously. Should I be worried?

What signs should I be looking out for to know she is close to labour?

What do I need to be prepared for her labour and birth of the kittens. 

Thanks


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

izziestars said:


> My girl Elsa is 4. And we do not know the exact date she got pregnant
> She is now very round and today she is very quiet. She's sleeping alot upstairs. When she comes down she comes over to me for some affection the goes and lies on the rug in the living room and will just lie there while my daughter plays around her. She she will go back upstairs to sleep. She hasn't eaten today.
> Last night she was trying to get into corners of the living room. Places she's never been interested in previously. Should I be worried?
> What signs should I be looking out for to know she is close to labour?
> ...


Izziestars, when did you first notice the kittens moving? That is usually first noticeable about 7 weeks into pregnancy. That would give you about 16 days warning of the birth.

You need somewhere quiet and dark for your girl to give birth. For a single litter a cardboard box open at the front with a towel or similar draped over the entrance should be fine. That gives the girl privacy and enables you to see what is going on. I always had my kittens in my kitten room and if you have a room that is quiet away from the day to day life of the household, Elsa will probably be happy and settle there. It might be a good idea to offer two options because some girls like to feel they have chosen their nest themselves. Some girls start looking for a nest up to 2 weeks in advance so if you show her the box when you notice this, she may spend quite a bit of time in it leading up to the birth..

You will need lots of bits of towel, flannelette etc to rub kittens if necessary and as many changes of bedding as kittens. Some people put all the bedding in the box at the beginning and just remove a layer after each kitten but I used to keep a pile ready by the box.

Girls vary in the amount of warning they give. In the last few days, with a normal size litter she will show sign of being uncomfortable and she may eat smaller amounts of food at any one time. (There just is not so much room inside as usual!)

She may have discharge but that can be just before or several days before so not really a good indicator. You may see signs of milk coming in up to 72 hours before the birth but this is not a reliable indicator either since some girls wait until they have the babies

I think it would be a good idea to keep posting here with anything different you notice about Elsa's behaviour and there will usually be somebody along who can advise at the time.

Remember, she is not a maiden queen so she will probably manage really well with just the minimum input from you. Fingers crossed.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Sounds like she is close. Has she milk yet - if she will let you look at her udder, it will fill from a few hours to a few days before giving birth. Try to settle her in one room, then if she starts without you she won't have them all over the house. Offer beds with white bedding, then when she has a discharge you will notice even if she licks it up. She will probably spend time before starting labour moving around from place to place, maybe pawing and scraping at her bedding. Make sure beds are at floor level, and nothing soft up high that she might use as a nest, kittens are blind and might roll off and hurt themselves. Have a plentiful supply of clean bedding for when she has finished, mine don't like a completely clean bed after birth, so let her birth on something soft and thick, with another layer on top. When she's finished take away the top, really yucky layer, and put another clean layer on top of the bottom one, so kittens are clean and dry but the nest still smells like it should. She may go off food, or may vomit, this is normal. Move water bowls away from the bed so kittens can't roll in. When her contractions start you will know, you will see like a ripple on her side, and if you touch her gently it will be hard, then soft again when the contraction is over. Once contractions coming regularly she is ready to start having her kittens. Her first kitten might take a while, if she's pushing for more than say an hour for her first one I'd get her to a vet, less time if her contractions are very hard and very frequent, allow more time if she has a couple of contractions and then rests for a good few minutes. The best thing is have your vet's emergency number ready, so you can talk to a vet nurse about what exactly she is doing - always hard to advise off the tops of our heads if we don't have the queen in front of us. When the kitten starts to come out the water sac will come first, it will look like a little glass marble coming out. The kitten is inside a fluid filled sac, it might come head first or tail first, both are normal. Once out either the mum or you must break the membrane around the nose quickly, just a quick pinch and tear is fine. The afterbirth will probably stay inside the mum for a bit, when it comes she should eat the afterbirth down to the belly button (leaving about 1cm to 1 inch of cord). Stop her if she starts to eat too close to the kitten's body, put your hand over the kitten and TEAR, not cut the cord - pinch the cord between finger and thumb about an inch from the kitten's tummy and about a cm higher up towards mum, stretch and break. Keep the hand attached to the kitten's cord pinched tight for a few seconds, open gently, any bleeding and pinch again HARD. Always hold the cord in 2 hands, NEVER pull on the cord without "taking the strain" away from the kittens tummy. Kittens will be approx. 5-20 mins apart, any longer than 20/30 mins between kittens call vet for advice or post here - we all check internet different times so there is usually someone around. Any real concerns call vet as first port of call. Count afterbirths out, one per kitten. Usually goes kitten, afterbirth, kitten, but can go kitten, kitten, afterbirth, afterbirth if 2 kittens close together. If mum will wash and snuggle between births that's best for kittens, make sure she doesn't stand up and lie down on them again, and make sure they are dry - if mum won't take an interest at first rub with a clean flannel and snuggle in a corner of the bed, with a heat pad, or even a microwaved baked potato wrapped in a flannel - cheap, everyone has them, and keep warm for a couple of hours. Get some Cimicat powdered milk and a feeding syringe/teats just in case it's the middle of the night and then mum won't feed them, but give mum a chance to finish the labour, have a clean bed and start to take an interest before leaping in to feed them - they can go without a feed for a couple of hours as long as warm and dry. I know your daughter will probably want to watch, but really she's better with someone (your Grandma?) to watch her so you and the cat can concentrate, and sometimes you might get one who doesn't make it which will be hard on her to understand. That's all I can think for now quickly, need to get my little one ready for Brownies. Keep us posted!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Please keep her in from now until she can be spayed. An awful lot can go wrong if she is allowed out - she is more vulnerable while heavily pregnant, she might have them somewhere outside, and once they are born you don't want her to have an accident or vanish, plus she could get pregnant again any time from shortly after they are born.

In addition to the above, iCatCare (formerly the FAB) have some excellent information:

http://www.icatcare.org/advice/my-cat-having-kittens

Personally I think the not eating and the investigating corners means she's pretty close. She might also get milk, and/or have a slight discharge.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

_"On the 10th of may she escaped and came home on the 17th of may"_

So you do have some idea when she got pregnant. She will have been in call when she escaped, hence waiting by the door to shot out. If she first mated on the 13th she is due on or about July 17th, except it sounds like she is further on than than. ???? Maybe she was already pregnant when rehomed to you.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

That's what I'm thinking. I will try and get pictures of her belly and nipples when I get home


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Not sure photos will help much as cats are quite variable. If she was already pregnant on the 4th may my guess is they knew she was unspayed and had got out in call, and rehomed her before it was obvious she was pregnant. Say she was out somewhere round the 19th - 23rd April she would be due any day now - the 23rd to 27th.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

However I see this discussion has already been had.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

With a rounded belly on 3rd June it was never going to be "early" pregnancy. Just glad she's going to be allowed to have them, bless you Izziestars. After this is over talk to your vet about how long to leave to spay following birth to minimise risk of haemorrhage from blood rich uterus. Of course should anything go wrong and she need a caesarean as an emergency do a spay at the same time to avoid 2 operations and 2 lots of anaesthetic, but fingers crossed all will go ok. Hope you get a lovely little one for your daughter to call her very own after your recent heartache.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

izziestars said:


> That's what I'm thinking. I will try and get pictures of her belly and nipples when I get home


Sorry to repeat myself, Izziestars, but it would be much easier if you could tell us when you first saw the kittens moving.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I personally havnt seen the kittens move. My daughter says she has but again she is only 4 so not 100% reliable lol I'm just taking pictures now


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Here are the best pictures. She looks a bit more pregnant then the photos show unfortunately


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Can't tell too much as she's stretching up. Can you get her to stand still and take one from above and from the side? When she's nearly ready to give birth her tummy will "drop", so instead of being nicely rounded her belly will sink down and she will develop slightly hollow sides.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

The size of her belly changes every time she moves. These are the best I could get. Again she looks bigger then the photos show


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

She does look big in the first 2 photos, less so in the 3rd! Her stripes are in just the wrong places. Not knowing how she looks when not pregnant, and only on the first 2 photos I'd say she's in the last few days of pregnancy, unless she's got a bigger than usual number of kittens. Keep her indoors from now on, and try to get her used to being in the room you want her to give birth in, it will be very difficult to move her and kittens once born, she will want to go back to her chosen nest. If she really won't settle then put white or pale covers on the areas she likes to sleep, so you can see when she has a discharge and keep a very close eye from then, moving her to her nest and staying with her to comfort and settle her at the first sign of contractions. Is she eating ok, little and often (as her tummy is being pressed so she won't have much room), or has she stopped? Any vomiting at all? All cats are different, but I'd expect in next few days, possibly very soon, but don't count on it or she'll cross her legs to prove me wrong! Her udder isn't very well developed yet, but some only come into milk properly after giving birth.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Sorry but it's not really possible to tell from photos as size varies considerably from one feline pregnancy to another.

You have the dates - before you got her, when she was missing, and you have some signs except I think signs of pregnancy are often missed until quite late, even when it's know it's possible.

I suspect she got pregnant before you got her on the 4th May, and also that they thought she might not have 'caught' but realised she had so rehomed her.

If that's correct she would have been about 3 weeks pregnant on the 4th and is due any day now. If she got pregnant between then and the 4th May she is due any time up to 8th July, though cats can go 5 days over without it being a big problem so that's from now up to the 13th July.

Sorry but without knowing when she mated being more accurate isn't possible. All I can say is that in my view, in her photos, her pregnancy looks more advanced than getting pregnant when she escaped.

Any idea what date you noticed her getting rounder? It's usually at 5-6 weeks people notice that.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I think its was about 2 weeks ago it was noticeable.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

You said she was "getting rounder in the belly" (so not early pregnancy) on your other thread 3 June, so 3 weeks ago, making her due from anytime now to a week away. Based on photos if I had to I'd bet on sooner rather than later.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

She has been kept in from 2 days ago and today I'm moving my bedroom around and setting up her birthing corner and a litter tray etc. Should I start confining her to the bedroom or can she still roam the house? She is still eating but not like she was she's gone from polishing off a whole tin of wet food to eating just the gravy its in.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

If she will let you confine her then do so, let her have a couple of alternative nesting areas in your bedroom. You could start having your cups of tea up in the bedroom with her even if she doesn't want to stay there without you. If she's pacing around and won't settle then let her potter about, but have some pale cloths spread over the areas she lies on to give an idea of when she discharges. You won't notice any wet on her because she'll lick herself as soon as she leaks, but it will stain a pale cloth. Sounds like she's getting near, could be tonight/tomorrow if not really eating. Are you all sorted for a babysitter if she needs vet at night?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Yes my friend lives down the road maybe 5 min drive. He's ready to come and collect my daughter and drop her to his to stay and take me to the vets if needed. She also started to get funny with Luci our other female cat who is 18. Luci walked past her last night and Elsa spat at her and lunged at her. Never had any problems between the 2 of them before?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Yes sounds close. Thank goodness for the solidarity of friends who know our children hey? If Elsa wants to prowl and Luci is upsetting her maybe poor old Luci could get shifted to a quiet room (utility?) to keep her out of the way? She can come out again when mum has settled on a definite nest site. We have sports day this afternoon, then girls normal after school Tuesday swimming so not going to be on internet for a bit, but keep posting, there's always someone around. Go back to posts 2 and 3, there's quite a few things there to watch out for and ideas. Probably birth will be in the night, but not always. Will check thread later on and see what's happening.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

izziestars said:


> I think its was about 2 weeks ago it was noticeable.


The problem is that a 4 year old girl who has probably had multiple litters, (the last only a few months ago,) may not have regained muscle tone so could easily look further advanced than she is. In that case usual indicators such as the kittens 'dropping' may not be so obvious. (That is why I kept asking about the kittens moving.)



izziestars said:


> She has been kept in from 2 days ago and today I'm moving my bedroom around and setting up her birthing corner and a litter tray etc. Should I start confining her to the bedroom or can she still roam the house? She is still eating but not like she was she's gone from polishing off a whole tin of wet food to eating just the gravy its in.


I certainly would not confine her in one room since you really have no idea of her due dates. If she is with you most of the time you will have a better chance of noticing the first signs of labour. In any case, I always used to love the last few days before my girls popped and since you have not had Elsa long, sharing the time together should cement the bonding process.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Are you sorted with your vet's out of hours number if she needs a vet out of hours? And where to go, if they use a night service?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN: _"In that case usual indicators such as the kittens 'dropping' may not be so obvious."_

It was very subtle in my two maiden queens who have just kittened, though both had very big litters. I could tell from their behaviour when each was due to kitten, and when I confined the younger it was at night and I slept with her.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

OrientalSlave said:


> QOTN: _"In that case usual indicators such as the kittens 'dropping' may not be so obvious."_
> 
> It was very subtle in my two maiden queens who have just kittened, though both had very big litters. I could tell from their behaviour when each was due to kitten, and when I confined the younger it was at night and I slept with her.


Yes, it is not always particularly noticeable even in our breeds who don't have so much hair etc! My girls that carried their babies like two panniers tended to show a drop more. I used to start sleeping in the kitten room about 5 days before expected date. All part of the bonding thing because my girls were always even more clingy than usual round that time.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

How's it going?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Still no sign of kittens. All Elsa has done is sleep


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Plan a day out, that will make them come!


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Hehe we are due to go to the beach tomorrow


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Ok, I'm betting then! Funnily enough I was half thinking Wed night/Thursday, but I'd look an idiot if I was wrong!


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Still no sign although Elsa has been extremely affectionate this evening. Alot more so then usual.

Also I noticed today that my other cat must have brought in fleas ( I was just over a week late in fleaing my other cat) can I still flea and worm treat Elsa my pregnant girl?


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

This close to birth I wouldn't, wormer can occasionally cause upset tummy, and you don't want any residues on her fur if she will soon have little ones crawling all over her. Would probably be fine, but I'd play safe. You can flea spray the rest of the house though, soft furnishings and skirting boards etc, 90% of the fleas are in the house not on the cat. Any news this morning?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I'll do the house then. Still no sign although she hasn't been downstairs today she's stayed upstairs on my bed


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Some wormers are safe, you have to read the data sheet. And with a pill I can't see where the residue on the fur would be - I can with Panacur, dreadful stuff, I ended up wearing most of it when I tried giving it to a foster litter.

According to the data sheet, Milbemax is suitable for pregnant & lactating queens. Of course you have to give the correct dose, and you can't buy it online:

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Nov...Kittens_Milbemax_Tablets_for_Cats/-44269.html

(go to page 2 for the safey info)

Also wash all bedding she has been on at 60C or discard it, and dry it outside if you can.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

It was the flea treatment I was worried about residues in fur, unless you know of a pill flea treatment, I've always used spot ons? It says safe once dry but I'd be extra careful with teeny tinies. Wormer worry wasn't if safe in its own right, but if would cause upset tummy, even if can get it down her - gone off her food and I really wouldn't be forcing a heavily pregnant cat to swallow a tablet it was fighting - struggle over taking her medicine might cause more problems than it solves. Not every cat takes tablets well (even the affectionate ones), and not every owner is as practised as us as getting the job done before they've even noticed. Also she might vomit if due soon, and then you don't know if she's had it or not, if it's digested in her system or not. Any doubt at all I'd wait rather than risk giving lower than recommended dose and causing resistance. Hot wash bedding good idea.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I would definitely get a couple of Milbemax tablets from the vet for the adult cats and also some Capstar (oral) flea treatment which is a non-pesticide and safe for pregnant/nursing queens.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

The Capstar gets rid of any fleas on the cat, so if you treat the house and then give the Capstar there's no hiding place for the fleas. It's well worth reading the RIP Fleas website which explains the flea lifecycle very well - the pupal window is the b*gg*r for getting rid of them.

It's also possible your other cat has had fleas longer than you suspect...

http://www.ripfleas.co.uk/


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

I hadn't come across Capstar (nitenpyram) previously, but a quick search shows it is a neonicotinoid, a class of pesticide recently banned on farms ( I follow that sort of thing as a farmer, the info gets thrust at us even if we have never used them). There is a significant difference between being a natural product and being a non- pesticide, to be pedantic neonicotinoids are natural pesticides not man made ones. Although I'm not disputing it is licenced for use in pregnant or lactating cats, I don't think suitable this close to giving birth: _*"In addition, we quantified three distinct behavioral responses of infested adult cats treated with nitenpyram to determine the extent of any immediate, overt behavioral responses in treated animals. A significant increase in scratching, biting, licking, and twitching occurred for 5 h. The biting and licking continued for 7 h after treatment." *_ Not something I'd be risking this close to giving birth, the queen needs peace and quiet, not these sorts of side effects. Not to mention the problem of giving tablets this close to birth for a cat already "off" her food ( which is the route most people not adept at giving tablets to cats use to smuggle in the tablet without a fight).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Who are 'we'? Can you provide a link please.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

If I read every pub-med type abstract on the various, possible effects of any drug, I'd likely never use anything! So regardless, I would still rather give the cat a Capstar tablet today, than have a litter of newborns flea infested... which they will be. But that of course is just my own feeling.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> If I read every pub-med type abstract on the various, possible effects of any drug, I'd likely never use anything! So regardless, I would still rather give the cat a Capstar tablet today, than have a litter of newborns flea infested... which they will be. But that of course is just my own feeling.


I agree, just think that if one is going to make a statement like that it should be supported. I personally would also rather give a Capstar - I would be balancing a possible few hours of discomfort against days should a flea infestation set in.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I agree, just think that if one is going to make a statement like that it should be supported. I personally would also rather give a Capstar - I would be balancing a possible few hours of discomfort against days should a flea infestation set in.


The problem (as I see it) is that these drug manufacturers have to report on every little thing and yes, they do make unsettling reading at times. But I think you have to take it in context. Novartis (who make Capstar) did issue an addendum to the data sheet saying that birth defects/stillbirths had been reported following Capstar's usage - but it does also state that those few occurrences had never been proven to be directly linked to Capstar's usage. And we all know, sadly, how relatively common stillbirths and birth defects (to a lesser degree obviously) are in litters of kittens. On the itching/scratching/biting issue (which is a reaction to fleas dying, not the medication itself), in an already less than ideal situation I would opt for that possibility, for 5-7 hours, over flea ridden kittens and then *having* to use insecticide based products on the kittens themselves.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Indeed every little thing has to be reported. WRT birth defects, the most vulnerable time is the first trimester when the foetus is forming. This cat is probably in the last third of it's last trimester, I agree that a few hours of itching is far better than the alternatives.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Not talking about birth defects, talking about 1) getting a tablet/s down a possibly uncooperative cat if smuggling in food not an option, and 2) also the discomfort to the queen in the last few days, possibly hours before giving birth, when she should be calm and peaceful, not itching and twitching. Treat the rest of the house, hot wash the bedding, don't upset the queen at this stage. I'd rather have itching kittens than dead ones because the mum didn't settle into a normal labour routine.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

If Izziestars has still not seen kittens moving, it might be that Elsa is a bit flabby (sorry Elsa) after her previous litter/s and really did get pregnant when she escaped on 10th May. You would then expect to see movement from about 28th. Some cats eat lots in early pregnancy and put on weight as an insurance because in the wild they would not be as effective at hunting in the later stages. I know next to nothing about fleas but surely, if she has fleas for another 2 weeks that is likely to impact on her health whereas Elsa has probably established a relationship with her new owner that can survive administration of a pill without undue stress.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> If Izziestars has still not seen kittens moving, it might be that Elsa is a bit flabby (sorry Elsa) after her previous litter/s and really did get pregnant when she escaped on 10th May. You would then expect to see movement from about 28th. Some cats eat lots in early pregnancy and put on weight as an insurance because in the wild they would not be as effective at hunting in the later stages. I know next to nothing about fleas but surely, if she has fleas for another 2 weeks that is likely to impact on her health whereas Elsa has probably established a relationship with her new owner that can survive administration of a pill without undue stress.


We're all guessing about due dates. If my cats were more clingy, looking for nesting sites and going off their grub I sure wouldn't have to wait a fortnight for the pitter patter of tiny paws. If we knew she was a fortnight off, sure go ahead with the tablets, but not if it could be imminent. I'm sorry I don't always have time to post links to data, but it's all out there if you want to look, it was a quick response to the totally incorrect claim that Capstar was pesticide free ( which interestingly went unchallenged). I would not recommend risking making a cat twitchy and uncomfortable for up to 7 hours in the run up to labour. In the absence of a definite due date I'm just advising taking the more cautious route.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> We're all guessing about due dates. If my cats were more clingy, looking for nesting sites and going off their grub I sure wouldn't have to wait a fortnight for the pitter patter of tiny paws. If we knew she was a fortnight off, sure go ahead with the tablets, but not if it could be imminent. I'm sorry I don't always have time to post links to data, but it's all out there if you want to look, it was a quick response to the totally incorrect claim that Capstar was pesticide free ( which interestingly went unchallenged). I would not recommend risking making a cat twitchy and uncomfortable for up to 7 hours in the run up to labour. In the absence of a definite due date I'm just advising taking the more cautious route.


Elsa is *not *your cat. One thing 20 years of breeding taught me is there are no absolutes. I have had girls nesting 2 weeks before, I have had girls clingy all through pregnancy but I did not have girls go off their food although I know many people do. If my girls had gone off food, I would be thinking something quite different especially in the absence of kitten movement but let's not go there.

I freely admit I know nothing about flea treatment. I used some once on two cats who were returned to me aged 5. However, if I read a passage like the one you quoted, I would want to know how many cats were surveyed and what proportion showed the reaction before I would attempt to quantify what the risk might actually be in any individual cat.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Thank you everyone again for your advice. I have spent the day hot washing everything. I have treated the house. Given Elsa a warm bath (she enjoys water) and gone through her with a nit comb. She is happy and settled in bed with me now. I am going to wait until she has had the kittens before getting treatment from the vet. I've just checked her again and I'm pretty sure she is flea clear. As is my other girl now after being fleabathed


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

izziestars said:


> Thank you everyone again for your advice. I have spent the day hot washing everything. I have treated the house. *Given Elsa a warm bath (she enjoys water) and gone through her with a nit comb.* She is happy and settled in bed with me now. I am going to wait until she has had the kittens before getting treatment from the vet. I've just checked her again and I'm pretty sure she is flea clear. As is my other girl now after being fleabathed


Good grief, if she is laid-back enough and far enough away from delivery for a bath I can't see the possible itching from Capstar being a problem.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

She has always liked baths. She will get in herself if you leave the bathroom door open.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

QOTN said:


> Elsa is *not *your cat. One thing 20 years of breeding taught me is there are no absolutes. I have had girls nesting 2 weeks before, I have had girls clingy all through pregnancy but I did not have girls go off their food although I know many people do. If my girls had gone off food, I would be thinking something quite different especially in the absence of kitten movement but let's not go there.
> 
> I freely admit I know nothing about flea treatment. I used some once on two cats who were returned to me aged 5. However, if I read a passage like the one you quoted, I would want to know how many cats were surveyed and what proportion showed the reaction before I would attempt to quantify what the risk might actually be in any individual cat.


I fully appreciate Elsa is none of our cats, we're giving advice which can help Izziestars make the best choice for herself, based on what she knows of her own cat and our pooled experience. As I said, we are all guessing a due date, I'm just advising being cautious in the absence of a definite due date in the calendar. The information is out there if you have time to read articles point by point, and draw your own conclusions, I don't always have time to post links through, and when I have done in the past (L4/L2 vaccination) the information has not even been acknowledged. It seems strange that the completely false statement that Capstar is pesticide free went unchallenged, but when I give the correct information that it is a neonicotinoid, and quote side effects, suddenly everybody wants the link? I'm sure with a few on the forum if I posted "snow is white" there would be demands for links to my sources!

Hope all goes well with Elsa, Izziestars, I'm afraid it's just a waiting game now, but that can be part of the fun. I'm sure your daughter is getting very excited by now.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Bizarre! Years ago when I was a child we had a cat that liked to get in the cast-iron bath after someone had used it as it was nice and warm, but it shot out the day it jumped in before the water had drained.

But she actually gets in a bath full of water? !!!!!


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Yes. If your in the bath the door has to be closed or she will be in with you before you get a chance to do anything. If the water is shallow enough she will lie down in it. I think its so strange as never had a cat that has liked water before. It has to be warm water though. And its only the bath tub sinks etc she ignores


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

That really is novel, you have a most unusual cat there! I think we need the see the evidence.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

When I bath my daughter tonight ill take a few pics


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Has she Turkish Van in her ancestry?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I'm unaware of any of her breeding unfortunately


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Like all the best moggies! Looking forward to seeing her in the bath!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Catharinem said:


> it was a quick response to the totally incorrect claim that Capstar was pesticide free ( which interestingly went unchallenged)


My apologies. Novartis refer to Capstar as a 'non-pesticide' product and yet the active ingredient is, elsewhere, referred to as such. Most peculiar! But for the purpose of what we were talking about, i.e. being cautious about pesticide residue for a queen feeding kittens, that concern isn't relevant as it has no residual effect 24 hours post use.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

It happens! I have a beeswax based handcream which claims to "contain no animal products"! I haven't come Capstar it before, sounds like could be something safe post birth, my concern at this stage was discomfort preventing settling in nesting site rather than danger to the unborn directly from it's usage. If only Elsa could tell us when she's going to pop life would be much easier.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Catharinem said:


> It happens! I have a beeswax based handcream which claims to "contain no animal products"! I haven't come Capstar it before, sounds like could be something safe post birth, my concern at this stage was discomfort preventing settling in nesting site rather than danger to the unborn directly from it's usage. If only Elsa could tell us when she's going to pop life would be much easier.


Strange, but there again they didn't have to kill the bees to get the bees wax. Since Elsa happily had a bath I can't imagine a Capstar would have been a problem.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Catharinem said:


> I fully appreciate Elsa is none of our cats, we're giving advice which can help Izziestars make the best choice for herself, based on what she knows of her own cat and our pooled experience. As I said, we are all guessing a due date, I'm just advising being cautious in the absence of a definite due date in the calendar. The information is out there if you have time to read articles point by point, and draw your own conclusions, I don't always have time to post links through, and when I have done in the past (L4/L2 vaccination) the information has not even been acknowledged. It seems strange that the completely false statement that Capstar is pesticide free went unchallenged, but when I give the correct information that it is a neonicotinoid, and quote side effects, suddenly everybody wants the link? I'm sure with a few on the forum if I posted "snow is white" there would be demands for links to my sources!
> 
> Hope all goes well with Elsa, Izziestars, I'm afraid it's just a waiting game now, but that can be part of the fun. I'm sure your daughter is getting very excited by now.


If I remember correctly the L2/L4 vaccination post was not relevant to a cat thread, although there were some responses.

Nobody questioned your statement that Capstar was a neonicotinoid. It is easy to see why it would be accepted as 'non-pesticide' if that is stated by Novartis the manufacturers. It was the extent of side effects that needed clarification.

It is perfectly possible that, if you posted 'snow is white' and we had no experience of it, we might well ask you to provide further details!


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Sorry I wasn't able to get any pics tonight I've had a horrendous day. Here is a picture of Elsa lying down though


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Here is a labeled pic to show you how she is growing


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Horrendous? Everything ok with you and your daughter?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Someone has fraudulently accessed my bank account and emptied it. I should get all the money back soon and its being investigated


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

izziestars said:


> Someone has fraudulently accessed my bank account and emptied it. I should get all the money back soon and its being investigated


Oh my, that's awful! At least you'll get it back. Can you get an email from the people you're dealing with to show your vet so they cut some slack with any bill payment? At least you and daughter are well, that's a relief.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Still no sign of kittens. Although I went out for dinner this evening. Came home about 8pm. At around 9pm Elsa was licking herself for about 10 mins. And her tummy looked like it tightened and relaxed 2-3 times. Then it stopped. She was given roast chicken for dinner which she hadn't eaten. She is even more affectionate. I was giving her cuddles and belly rub before bed and every time I touched the bottom end of her tummy she meowed so I stopped. Here is a picture of her lying down tonight. To me she looks massive


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Any news? Come on Elsa, we're all waiting!


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Nope no kittens as of yet. I'm sure she's crossing her legs now lol


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Just a big tease! Movements might have been getting them lined up ready. Refusing roast chicken is serious, unless maybe she thinks she can hold out for a nice piece of salmon?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

She's a few cat crunchies and dreamies. But still no chicken


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

It also seems that Elsa has picked a nesting spot which I believe isn't suitable. Its in the empty bottom draw of my filing cabinet but its not very accessible to me of anything goes wrong. How can I get her to choose a new nesting spot?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

izziestars said:


> It also seems that Elsa has picked a nesting spot which I believe isn't suitable. Its in the empty bottom draw of my filing cabinet but its not very accessible to me of anything goes wrong. How can I get her to choose a new nesting spot?


I think you've a few options. Tape it shut and effectively force her to choose somewhere more suitable that you've provided her with. Or, if the general location is suitable, take out the draw and provide her with some bedding in the empty space. I do find they like something they can shred and arrange themselves, even if it's just temporary to encourage them to a suitable spot, such as layers of kitchen paper towel.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I've blocked off the draw and I've set this up. Is this ok? I've since added a bowl of food and water in there. And put a litter tray in the bedroom. How can I encourage her to use this space


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

izziestars said:


> I've blocked off the draw and I've set this up. Is this ok? I've since added a bowl of food and water in there. And put a litter tray in the bedroom. How can I encourage her to use this space


The space looks ideal to me.. not necessarily to her, fickle creatures they are  I would remove the food/water from the immediate area (some females may sense that food attracts predators to the nest). Many also like to feel more enclosed so you could add an upturned cardboard box with an opening cut in in the front.... i.e. something that you can easily lift off should you need to intervene when she's giving birth or to check the kittens from time to time afterwards. Ultimately though, they're the boss when it comes to choice of location so all you can do is persuade them to your chosen place(s).

Many girls, once in labour but before the first kitten is born, will tend to wander, feeling restless and sometimes agitated. It's much easier to get them to settle in one place once the first kitten is born so as long as you have her confined to a specific room when she goes into labour, it's frequently not too difficult to get them to stay in one place of your choice.


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Hey, what's happening?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Still no sign she is booked in for a vet checkup on Monday if no kittens to find out what's happening


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> _"On the 10th of may she escaped and came home on the 17th of may"_
> 
> So you do have some idea when she got pregnant. She will have been in call when she escaped, hence waiting by the door to shot out. *If she first mated on the 13th she is due on or about July 17th*, except it sounds like she is further on than than. ???? Maybe she was already pregnant when rehomed to you.





izziestars said:


> Still no sign she is booked in for a vet checkup on Monday if no kittens to find out what's happening


I suspect she still has a week or more to go. The vet is between a rock and a hard place - unless she is in labour and struggling there's nothing much they can do since it's not really clear when she got pregnant. Doing a section and ending up delivering premature kittens would be a very expensive disaster.

Unlike with human babies the information to date pregnancies from scans doesn't exist, indeed I'm not sure if it could exist as there is a big variation in the birth weight of healthy kittens. With my own which are Orientals they have ranged from 58g up to 93g, maybe more with Aoife's kittens I wasn't able to weigh, but BSH kittens (for example) are usually much bigger.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

izziestars said:


> I've blocked off the draw and I've set this up. Is this ok? I've since added a bowl of food and water in there. And put a litter tray in the bedroom. How can I encourage her to use this space


Just looked at the photos, she doesn't look very heavily pregnant though I know photos of pregnant cats can look nothing like the cat does in person.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

This is Elsa today. All she really does now is sleep. 

Also I was reading some articles online. Is it true that because of Elsa being tabby its more dominant so female kittens will be the same colouration. And if the male cat was black then the likelihood is that all kittens will be black?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

izziestars said:


> This is Elsa today. All she really does now is sleep.
> 
> Also I was reading some articles online. Is it true that because of Elsa being tabby its more dominant so female kittens will be the same colouration. And if the male cat was black then the likelihood is that all kittens will be black?


You must be feeling relaxed to ask for a lesson in genetics, Izziestars! Elsa Is probably feeling the heat. Most of my cats are sleeping all the time and they are definitely not pregnant.

If Elsa has two tabby genes *all *the kittens will be tabbies (nothing to do with the sex.) If she has only one, roughly half will be tabbies (could be all of them) and the rest will be self (again possibly all of them.) Since her colour (under the tabby) is also black, if the sire was black the chances are all the kittens will be too. The other possibility is blue but both parents would have to carry a dilute gene and pass it to the same kitten for any blue kittens to be born.

The only other likely colour might be tortie girls which would tell you the dad was a ginger. That could be combined with tabby or on its own.


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

I wouldn't exactly call it relaxed lol
The entire male she lived with before coming to me was a ginger tabby. The entire males around here that I know of are black and white, long hair calico, black and a Russian blue. So from what you have said anything is possible. She's just got up to use the litter tray and she's walking very slowly and to me looks a little stiff


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

izziestars said:


> I wouldn't exactly call it relaxed lol
> The entire male she lived with before coming to me was a ginger tabby. The entire males around here that I know of are black and white, long hair calico, black and a Russian blue. So from what you have said anything is possible. She's just got up to use the litter tray and she's walking very slowly and to me looks a little stiff


The black and white boy could pass on his white spotting gene independently of his self colour so you could have tabby and white as well as black and white (possibly even blue and white) if he is the sire.

The longhair is another interesting possibility if Elsa carries the gene. (It is not a term we use in GCCF but I thought calico was tortie and white so highly unlikely to be a boy.)

If her kittens were conceived when she escaped, they could have more than one sire if Elsa had plenty of talent to choose from!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> _"On the 10th of may she escaped and came home on the 17th of may"_
> 
> So you do have some idea when she got pregnant. She will have been in call when she escaped, hence waiting by the door to shot out. *If she first mated on the 13th she is due on or about July 17th*, except it sounds like she is further on than than. ???? Maybe she was already pregnant when rehomed to you.


How was that for a prediction?


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## izziestars (Mar 20, 2015)

Spot on lol. Elsa and all 7 kittens are doing great


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## gatitasmami (Jul 16, 2015)

Hi I have a small cat who has atleast been pregnant 8 weeks I hope but she is huge..miserable...only walks actually waddles a few ft the falls over on her side she sleeps constantly and is not eating much more now but her breathing has been looking labored for about a week very quick breaths and nasal sounds. She falls off everything she tries to jump up on she couldnt clean down there if she wanted too but seems to suck her first two nipples im worried shes maybe over due


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## gatitasmami (Jul 16, 2015)

gatitasmami said:


> Hi I have a small cat who has atleast been pregnant 8 weeks I hope but she is huge..miserable...only walks actually waddles a few ft the falls over on her side she sleeps constantly and is not eating much more now but her breathing has been looking labored for about a week very quick breaths and nasal sounds. She falls off everything she tries to jump up on she couldnt clean down there if she wanted too but seems to suck her first two nipples im worried shes maybe over due


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## gatitasmami (Jul 16, 2015)

Here are a few pis well darn im new to this but I have a album on my page


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

gatitasmami said:


> Hi I have a small cat who has atleast been pregnant 8 weeks I hope but she is huge..miserable...only walks actually waddles a few ft the falls over on her side she sleeps constantly and is not eating much more now but her breathing has been looking labored for about a week very quick breaths and nasal sounds. She falls off everything she tries to jump up on she couldnt clean down there if she wanted too but seems to suck her first two nipples im worried shes maybe over due


I'd get her to a vet for a checkup, even being big she shouldn't be out of breath. If she is overdue she might have dead kittens and an infection


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## gatitasmami (Jul 16, 2015)

IMG_20150715_235041




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gatitasmami


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Jul 16, 2015




7/15





Thank u


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