# Peggle (Fck - leg deformity)



## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Just wondered if anyone could update on how Peggle is getting on? I'm sure many of us had followed his story for weeks and were praying that he'd pull through.

I've seen an advert on pets4homes for a ragdoll kitten with health problems and it got me wondering how Peggle is now. 

Updates appreciated! I still think about the wee guy!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

He was with Kelly-joy (Ragdoll rehome having his op)

is this the one? I was just asking on the re-home thread about him, I am thinking this must be another cat the breeder had ?

Ragdoll Male - Medical Problems -Reduced £250 in Northampton, Northamptonshire ( Cats For Sale )


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Ewww I am sorry but I just have to comment on this.

I breed for Health type, temperament if I had an ill kitten, as a responsible breeder, I WOULD NOT be selling on blasted Pets4Homes.

If this is Peggle I am FURIOUS at the thought of what this baby has been put through, FKC, leg amputation, over to rescue re-home (many members of PF offered to take Peggle on but instead gave money for his operation) then back to breeder, poor little boy, now for sale on PF. If I had £50 I would give the breeder it to get him away from that home, how ? How ? what's the word......HEARTLESS! No more than £50, although I have to say I would pay quite a lot to get him away from his current circumstances. (BREATHE)


Now thinking on it, I don't think he shoud have been left with THIS breeder but found a nice home where someone would love him and care for him knowing what they were taking on - for free not on Pets4home for £250!!! 

I have to log off for a while, hopefully this is all wrong and not the same breeder etc.  Hoovering may help.


JO - Would you sell a sick kitten ?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I am floored...

the pets4homes add gives a website adress....

Winkys Ragdolls - Details -

this index in the petforum ^^^^ gives the same webiste and the same first name that Peggle's breeder used on the post last week when she was trying to rehome him in here.

What's the deal.... is this Peggle's breeder on Pets4homes who was first trying to sell him for £250 before he went to Kelly???? Or does she have more sick kittens??? And why the F*** to people sell sick kittens in the first place????? It's a breeders job to enusre a kitten is healthy BEFORE it sold or given away. And I know according to the posts in here Peggle's breeder wasn't paying for his leg amputation - but I will throw up if I now find out she was actually trying to sell him previously, or is selling other sick animals.

I am with Mellowma, time to log off in horror.

Delainew (Peggle's breeder) could you clarify please. Many of us in here bent over backwards trying to find that wee guy a nice home, and many people are now pledging monetary dontations for his future care... can you please tell us what the score is?


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

Im going to stay out of the argument on this, but that is the website that i was given by the owner when i enquired about rehoming Peggle so i guess it must be another one in the litter with a problem...? I hope its not Peggle anyway!


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

Yup, most certainly the same breeder. I am thinking that this is another kitten from either the same litter or another litter. Let's hope that delainew will clarify in a short while.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

I think she one girl one boy.

no further comments


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

just posted my views on the other thread 
http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-rescue-adoption/111604-peggle-4.html
this is the kind of irresponsible breeeder who gives every breeder a bad name -I was annoyed from the beginning -


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2010)

Its the same breeder alright.
I think this is another kitten? As the last I saw was Peggle had been in for his op and was doing fine.

If this is another kitten then maybe she should stop which ever two of her cats are having sick kittens. £250 for a sick kitten is just selfish.


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

It also means more kittens with this problem may be bought into the world and this is not breeding with a conscience


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

The litters were very close together. I think I had worked out the Mum was mated a few weeks after having her first litter.

It is the same breeder as she has her website on her stats on here.

I doubt we will hear but at least it's not Peggle, I felt he had been through enough.

Still not nice though. I reported her ad but as Mark says, it said nothing about 3 legs but not a well kitten. I would never sell sick kittens, what kind of breeder would that make me?

One who sells sick kittens. Not nice.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Its the same breeder alright.
> I think this is another kitten? As the last I saw was Peggle had been in for his op and was doing fine.
> 
> If this is another kitten then maybe she should stop which ever two of her cats are having sick kittens. £250 for a sick kitten is just selfish.


Yes, I totally agree. there is a problem with either Mum or Dad if one has FCK and needs a leg amputated on and another is just"ill"! Stop breeding from these cats, or at least have them tested, I for one wouldn't use her stud services.

I wouldn't let her look after a goldfish tbh!


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

http://http://www.gccfcats.org/ethics.html

the cat will not be insured and the GCCF would not be happy either.


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## cherrie_b (Dec 14, 2008)

I think it is Peggle. Look at the pics on the ad and the pics on her original post in the rehoming section!


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

cherrie_b said:


> I think it is Peggle. Look at the pics on the ad and the pics on her original post in the rehoming section!


If you open them up side by side its like a game of spot the difference


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

Kelly-Joy has posted in the rehoming section that she still has Peggle and he's doing brilliantly (photos on there too!!) - The breeder probably uses a general photo of the litter in all of her adverts - quite a few breeders do advertise in this way.

The little blue point boy advertised, is being advertised on behalf of a friend and unfortunately has a heart murmur. Heart murmurs are relatively common amoungst younger kittens and (depending on grade etc) can resolve as the kitten matures. Fingers crossed the wee guy finds an understanding new home soon. To be honest, I've seen countless adverts for unregistered 8 week old raggies for £200 - £300. Any one of these could have the same condition but as they're rarely vet checked before being sold, the new owner and the breeder are unaware.


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## messyhearts (Feb 6, 2009)

It is entirely possible that she took two girls out to a stud who has something being passed on that she wasn't aware of until they were born. She wouldn't be the first breeder to be conned by a stud owner. 

Maybe people should wait for a response before accusing?


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

messyhearts said:


> It is entirely possible that she took two girls out to a stud who has something being passed on that she wasn't aware of until they were born. She wouldn't be the first breeder to be conned by a stud owner.
> 
> Maybe people should wait for a response before accusing?


She has her own stud and one girl, 2 litters in 6/7 months so keeping the stud "active" enough.... the stud lives in a crate, as said previously on here.

It's not peggle, that was my concern, many PF Members offered to take him and pay for his treatment, these requests were ignored.

It is still not good selling unwell kittens.

GCCF would agree, I am sure.


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## luisa (Jul 14, 2010)

oh ffs  iv read all the peggle threads and i feel so so sorry for this poor little kitten


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## kelly-joy (Oct 14, 2008)

just want to clear up that Peggle is still with me, I am no longer with the ragdoll rescue as they closed their doors to any more hand ins,in the summer last year,which was very sad as they where the first and only registered ragdoll charity in the UK to rescue and re home ragdolls and other pedigree cats.
I was a re homing coordinator,fosterer,fund raiser and worked very closely with them behind the scenes.
Since they stopped taking in any more I have had many people contact me to help re home their pedigree cats instead,which is what I have been doing through and home to home service and putting all donation fees in another rescue site Animal Lifeline UK • Index page that, I co run which helps rescues all over the UK with various things such as fostering.home checking,transport,re homing etc, we also help dogs in the pound to find rescue placements so they don't get put to sleep and help people that need to re home their pets for whatever reason,to find rescue placements so they don't end up in the wrong hands.
I also hand rear kittens have been doing it for many years and re home them to good homes.
I never Actually wanted to become a rescue myself, and still don't but I can't not help when I know I can. Yes Peggle came from a breeder, that doesn't matter to me, what mattered was that I didn't want this little boy ending up in the wrong hands and not having the treatment he so badly needed. Myself and my friend the Vet nurse had the money to have his op done so we offered our help.I never judge anyone for needing to re home their animals,my main concern is finding then the right homes, and getting the treatment they need if I can.I know a lot of people think badly of us for taking Peggle on saying the breeder should have kept him, well I can tell you that he wasn't getting the treatment he needed,not the breeders fault either but the vets by the vet records we have, he probably would have not made it either,without help and that would have been far worse for poor Peggle.
Peggle will want for nothing for the rest of his life,he will be very well loved and care for and we will cross any bridge we come to if his problems get worse as he gets older.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

Is the breeder paying for his treatment? I would think that's the very least they can do? I find it really disappointing if not, as it is her responsibility and rescue should not be footing the bill. :confused1:


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## kelly-joy (Oct 14, 2008)

I don't think it really matters who paid, what matters is Peggle has had his op and he will continue to get all the treatment he needs in the future no matter the cost.
I keep you all updated on how he gets on


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

kelly-joy said:


> I know a lot of people think badly of us for taking Peggle on saying the breeder should have kept him, well I can tell you that he wasn't getting the treatment he needed,not the breeders fault either but the vets by the vet records we have, he probably would have not made it either,without help and that would have been far worse for poor Peggle.
> Peggle will want for nothing for the rest of his life,he will be very well loved and care for and we will cross any bridge we come to if his problems get worse as he gets older.


sorry, with all due respect, but if the vet was useless.... it was the breeders responsibilty to change vets, it's as simple as that! And a breeder should never have to be told about the need for second opinions.

Also, while it's not uncommon for a breeder to rehome a special-needs cat or kitten, it is IMO highly unusual that a breeder would expect the new owner to foot the bill for his OP and look after the post-op care. In any rescue org I have "worked" for, cats and kittens are not rehomed with the bill (or the immediate after care) going to the new owner!

I also don't get the SELLING of this second poorly kitten... even if it is a sale for a friend.... I just keep thinking of all the numpties and muppets out there who will happily buy such a kitten because they're getting it at a reduced price. And as always happens... when the reality (and costs) of the condition sink in.... well... numpties and muppets aren't generally in it for the long haul.


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## kelly-joy (Oct 14, 2008)

In any rescue org I have "worked" for, cats and kittens are not rehomed with the bill (or the immediate after care) going to the new owner! 

Neither will Peggle he will stay with myself or V for the rest of his life so will not ever be up for adoption.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

kelly-joy said:


> I don't think it really matters who paid, what matters is Peggle has had his op and he will continue to get all the treatment he needs in the future no matter the cost.
> I keep you all updated on how he gets on


again, with all due respect... you solicited donations on this very forum for Peggle's operation, so I think it does matter a LOT who is footing the bill.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

kelly-joy said:


> I don't think it really matters who paid, what matters is Peggle has had his op and he will continue to get all the treatment he needs in the future no matter the cost.
> I keep you all updated on how he gets on


I completely agree that for Peggle it doesn't matter who paid, and I personally think you're an angel, a genuine angel for doing what you have. But for every poorly kitten the breeder sells hoping for a mug to foot the bill after him, it matters. It matters that the breeder getting out of paying means she will continue to breed knowing a soft touch out there will pay for her responsibility. I am just really saddened if she isn't paying for his treatment, and I'm assuming from your post she isn't. How jammy for her.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

kelly-joy said:


> In any rescue org I have "worked" for, cats and kittens are not rehomed with the bill (or the immediate after care) going to the new owner!
> 
> Neither will Peggle he will stay with myself or V for the rest of his life so will not ever be up for adoption.


I was referring to the breeder... delainew... she posted at the time that she would rehome him for free but wouldn't pay for his amputation. That might not be illegal, but it's also far from the ethics of a _good_ breeder.


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## kelly-joy (Oct 14, 2008)

again, with all due respect... you solicited donations on this very forum for Peggle's operation, so I think it does matter a LOT who is footing the bill.

the only reason I posted this up is because people kept contacting me asking if they could donate a little something to help Peggle in some way.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

KathyM said:


> I completely agree that for Peggle it doesn't matter who paid, and I personally think you're an angel, a genuine angel for doing what you have. But for every poorly kitten the breeder sells hoping for a mug to foot the bill after him, it matters. It matters that the breeder getting out of paying means she will continue to breed knowing a soft touch out there will pay for her responsibility. I am just really saddened if she isn't paying for his treatment, and I'm assuming from your post she isn't. How jammy for her.


I see 100% where you are coming from Kathy !!

If a charity/shelter which runs on donations goes around mopping up the mess of the less unscrupulous breeders... well, it's not why I stick my fiver in the donation tin for. And it does indeed send out the message "heyyyy you don't need an emergency fund when you're a breeder, some nice donation-based charity will mop up your mess".

Breeders should always have the funds to cover things like this! If they don't, then they shouldn't be breeding.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

kelly-joy said:


> the only reason I posted this up is because people kept contacting me asking if they could donate a little something to help Peggle in some way.


yes, so don't you think, in the interests of fairness and clarity, that you answer the simple question Kathy posed of "who paid for his op". It does matter. If I donate to CPL or RSPCA.... I can read their annual review.


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## kelly-joy (Oct 14, 2008)

I am not going to post on this thread any more, I will not apologise for saving this boy,in fact if there was another 2morrow , I would probably do the very same again 
I suggest if you have anything to say you take it up with his breeder and not myself, because I am fed up of having to justify helping this baby out.
sorry if that sounds harsh but so many people have contacted me saying horrible things to me about having this boy and I have done nothing but do the best for peggles welfare, so to all those that have emailed me with your horrible words,I couldn't care what you think, I know I am good person and the people that really know me know the same and I couldn't really care two hoots what you all think.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

kelly-joy said:


> I am not going to post on this thread any more, I will not apologise for saving this boy


I was never wanting you to apologise for adopting Peggle... I am *DELIGHTED *you did adopt him. I just wanted you to stop apologising for the breeder and making excuses for her.

Those are two very different things.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

I am sorry if me criticising the breeder makes you uncomfortable - I posted not knowing about peoples' donations here nor with any agenda other than having read these threads with utter horror at the senseless palming off of a costly kitten to someone caring and compassionate - using your compassion as a ticket out of their responsibility. I'm also sorry that you would leave the thread over it as I would love to hear updates on him now he's with someone who gives a monkeys about him. I just would like to see an end to bad breeders like this dragging down rescues and good breeders alike and laughing all the way to the bank while they breed irresponsibly and falsely advertise how their kittens are all from healthy lines. Perhaps they could put a little bit on their website about how unhealthy kittens are palmed off on the caring, essentially culled from their lines rather than bred away from? I don't know, it just saddens me to see you landed with a bill she should pay, socially and financially.

ETA: I would also like to say I wholeheartedly disagree with anyone emailing you abuse over this and would like to make it clear I haven't emailed anyone.


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## delainew (May 15, 2010)

I am appalled and shocked with this forum, and like kelly joy I will not post again,
I saved Peggles life - by bottle and syringe feeding him, I feel that I am a good person for doing this!

a bad breeder would have just let him die at 3 weeks old when him got up and started dragging his leg behind him, however I took him to the vets and instead of having him put down as some breeders might I asked her to save him,
the vet said she didn't know if she could, but by a lot of love and dedication from me a few vet visits and an xray i managed to get him to one kilogram and in a healthy position to have his op,I made him a special bed and his chest also improved,

I will always be grateful to kelly joy and vicky to take him on and carry on with his life journey.so when you say nasty things about them it offends me.

Peggle is special to me, and I found him a good home, what I didn't bank on was all the bitching and sour grapes on this forum.
I thought this site was to help people with problems, not to slag them off, because they didnt get a free pedigree kitten.


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## KathyM (Jul 30, 2008)

delainew said:


> I am appalled and shocked with this forum, and like kelly joy I will not post again,
> I saved Peggles life - by bottle and syringe feeding him, I feel that I am a good person for doing this!


Too bloomin' right you hand fed him, and so you should, you made him! Just as you should be paying for his treatment now, he is your responsibility. If you can't afford his treatment, you should not be breeding. Being a good breeder is so much more than palming sick kittens off for rescues to use their funds to treat, this attitude sickens me entirely.



> a bad breeder would have just let him die at 3 weeks old when him got up and started dragging his leg behind him, however I took him to the vets and instead of having him put down as some breeders might I asked her to save him,


And you should be paying for him now. Do you seriously think good breeders expect rescue to foot the bill for their messes?



> I will always be grateful to kelly joy and vicky to take him on and carry on with his life journey.so when you say nasty things about them it offends me.


Not one person here is criticising Kelly-Joy or Vicky, I am absolutely fuming that you would try and make it seem that way to assuage your own guilt in the matter. The only person here being criticised is you, and quite rightly too. I do hope you will never breed again as clearly you are not a responsible breeder.



> Peggle is special to me, and I found him a good home, what I didn't bank on was all the bitching and sour grapes on this forum.
> I thought this site was to help people with problems, not to slag them off, because they didnt get a free pedigree kitten.


A free pedigree kitten? You're having a laugh aren't you? KJ has taken on a massive debt that you were responsible for - you are laughing all the way to the bank breeding and selling poorly kittens! How you can criticise those who offered him a home and to take that cost on for not paying you for the priveledge is beyond me, and utterly pukesome. Breeders like you bring shame on everyone else who cares about their animals. Stop breeding for the cats' sakes. Please.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

delainew said:


> I thought this site was to help people with problems, not to slag them off, because they didnt get a free pedigree kitten.


lmfao... a FREE pedigree kitten? lol, how can a kitten be free when you were asking the new owners to foot the very hefty bill for the amputation, not to mention his lifelong care, which will be a lot more than that of a healthy cat?

A free "pig in the poke" more like.

As adorable as wee Peggle was... he is worthless in monetary terms... infact he is a fincanical liability for the new owners.

And if you think it's ok that your breeding mishaps are paid for by organisations that function on charitable donations... then what you're actually saying is... I will sell the kittens I can make a profit from. The sick ones that would put my bank-balance in the red, I will ship off to rescue organizations and let them foot the bill, a bill which is ultimately footed by the people who donate to these charities.

Very noble. Very ethical. (NOT!)

You are simply an unethical breeder. That is the kindest manner I can say it. I could be a LOT more blunt.

And just for the record, I was never interested in rehoming Peggle so I am not sour grapes because I didn't get myself a free "pig in the poke". I am delighted Peggle has a great future with someone as obviously kind and cat-crazy as Kelly-Joy, but I don't agree that charitable orgs should foot the bill when unscrupulous breeders palm their mishaps on to them.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I should be speechless......


sadly, and horrifyingly i'm not


I'm afraid 100% of the responsibility still rests with the breeder. Breeding and then passing on sick kittens BEFORE they have had treatment is absoloutly unforgivable. 

Accidents happen, and some illnesses cannot be prevented I totally accept that. However passing the buck with those kittens is just not acceptable.

Anyone who has donated funds for this kitten has a moral right to know where that money was spent, regardless of who owned him at the time. 

Can someone explain to me why there is still a kitten advertised on p4h?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

billyboysmammy said:


> Can someone explain to me why there is still a kitten advertised on p4h?


BBM, on this thread or one of the other Peggle threads... Peggle's breeder _says_ the kitten on pets4homes is not Peggle, it's another sickly kitten of a similar age and appearance as Peggle, with heart murmur I believe. She _says_ this kitten is not hers, she is just rehoming it (for 250 quid!) for another breeder friend.

Totally agree with your post above... each and every word!


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2010)

delainew said:


> Peggle is special to me, and I found him a good home, what I didn't bank on was all the bitching and sour grapes on this forum.
> I thought this site was to help people with problems, not to slag them off, because they didnt get a free pedigree kitten.


Is that the way you think of him? A free pedigree kitten. 
He isnt free, nothing is free...even with a none-sick cat you are taking on a life time commitment and a life time of making sure that cat or dog for that matter gets everythnig they need/want.

I am over the moon that peggle is happy and now healthy and being loved because he needs it...every animal does. Kudos to kelly and vicky for taking him on and helping him out you are very great people.

However, I know for a fact that when I breed any sick pups I have will stay with me, I will pay for them, I will care for them and that is something a good breeder does.

As for this second kitten, "your friend" is very selfish £250 for a kitten with health problems! I have a dog with a heart murmur and I wouldn't dream of passing him onto anyone without offering to pay for any heart related medication or op's they may have in the future...infact I wouldn't pass him on at all.

If this kitten is not your friends and it is a sick one from another litter, get the cats you are breeding from checked before more sick kittens are brought into the world.

I am not having a dig at you I want what everyone else wants, you to step up and be responsible.


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

Delainew - as a breeder you have created a living creature you are totally responsible for this kitten financially and ethically as you are all kittens you produce -you are responsible for all the animals in your care -if you find you do have a genetic problem what then ? ship the cats of to a rescue or sell them on ?
Breeding is not about making money (I was a registered breeder for 10 years and any cash I got went straight back to financing the next litter ) and it's not about self esteem.
I doubt you are registered with the GCCF but if you are then I would very seriously consider your position in the cat fancy and question as to whether you should be breeding or owning animals at all


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## Philski (May 28, 2010)

Blimey. I have only just heard about poor little Peggle, but I am heartened by the happy outcome. I won't (can't) comment on the broader subject of breeder ethics, it's something that the other posters here know an awful lot more about than me.

However, this poor little kitten has been taken in by a big-hearted cat lover who was prepared to pay the asking price - I don't know this person, but she took what I presume to be a personal decision with her own money to give him the best life she could, and kudos to KJ. 

I do not know what the relationship is between KJ and delainew, but the fact is that both seem happy with their part in the 'transaction' (horribly cold word!), and, most importantly, a poorly kitten has the best future to look forward to that he could possibly have is all that matters. Fighting over who should or should not have done this or that pales in comparison to the outcome. I know nothing about other kittens that delainew has produced, so my opinion is based on what I have read about Peggle - on the basis of this, she has my support.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Philski said:


> However, this poor little kitten has been taken in by a big-hearted cat lover who was prepared to pay the asking price - I don't know this person, but she took what I presume to be a personal decision with her own money to give him the best life she could, and kudos to KJ.


While I will wholeheartedly agree with you Philkski that the person who took Peggle on is big-hearted and cat loving, I disagree about the cat being privately owned.

According to what KJ posted here on the forum, the charity (not her personally) is the new owner of Peggle, and she solicited donations (on behalf of the charity) here on the forum for Peggles current operation and future care, we were offered to donate to his current and future care by transferring moneys to the account of the charity.

A charity taking on (adopting) a cat is completely different to a private individual doing so. The shelter I work for solicits donations daily so I have no problems with any charity doing that, but the shelter I work for doesnt use the moneys raised to bail out unscrupulous breeders. And neither do the CPL or RSPCA or any other rescue organisation that I have ever heard of.

Its simply not normal operating procedure for good breeders to dump their mishap breeding adventures in this manner, and its certainly not standard operating procedure for charities to mop up the mess created by unscrupulous breeders (and to pick up the tab for it!), just so the unscrupulous breeders arent out of pocket. And that is the crux of the problem (I think) for myself and many other posters on this thread.

But this whole debacle has played out over many threads, not just this one, so I can well understand if you've only been privvy to this one thread, that you're not getting the whole picture.

Anywayyyy, I hope that clarifies where I (and a few others) are coming from with our posting on this thread.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Can anybody hear remember the name of Peggles breeder? Not her real name or her petforum name, I mean the cattery name?

I just found this add on Pets4homes, and if I am not mistaken its the same breeder. Well the cattery name is the same, I think! And if I am reading it right, well Peggle wasnt the only sick cat in the litter, his brother has terrible heart problems (according to the ad on p4h) and is FOR SALE NOW that would be the brother who she earlier this week said wasnt his brother, she was just selling him for a friend.

Please someone tell me this is all one big misunderstanding. First Peggle gets shipped off with all the costs for his care landing on KJs charity, now it turns out she has a second kitten probably from that same litter with serious heart problems and he is for sale too.

Again hope I am wrong but it seems that Peggle wasnt the only sick cat in the litter, his brother has terrible heart problems that would be the brother who she earlier this week said wasnt his brother, she was just selling him for a friend.

Attn Ragdoll Owners Or Breeders in Swindon, Wiltshire ( Cats For Sale )


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## Jess2308 (May 12, 2009)

That is the same breeder, from the website she supplied anyway 

Very disappointed.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2010)

Tje said:


> Can anybody hear remember the name of Peggles breeder? Not her real name or her petforum name, I mean the cattery name?
> 
> I just found this add on Pets4homes, and if I am not mistaken its the same breeder. Well the cattery name is the same, I think! And if I am reading it right, well Peggle wasnt the only sick cat in the litter, his brother has terrible heart problems (according to the ad on p4h) and is FOR SALE NOW that would be the brother who she earlier this week said wasnt his brother, she was just selling him for a friend.
> 
> ...


Well its the same breeders name:
Winkys Ragdolls

And the picture on the webiste is the same picture she had in her gallery on here.

I really hope its not..but I believe we were all right when we thought she was having sick kittens. :scared:


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

She ?states she is GCCF registered wonder whether they say she is ?


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## hobbs2004 (Mar 12, 2010)

It is the same one, isn't it? This just gets curioser and curioser. 

So, the sick kitten that was being talked about the other day wasn't really that of a friend's that she was selling, it was her own? And a littermate of Peggles? She must have had a sick litter, but not that surprising if she doesn't test. But why lie? 

And again she is expecting kind-hearted people to foot the bill? Ouch


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

Yes looks like it is 
kitten is stated as having heart issues but no mention of medication yet if it is obvious i would have thought her vet would want to at least try some treatment.
this kitten needs to be got away from her somehow if the poor little soul is to have a chance at life -but tbh it's going to be a repeat performance


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks for your tuppenceworth ladies. I was hoping I was just so fired up that I was reading it incorrectly or totally getting muddled up with cattery names. Why all the lies???? 

Maybe she is hoping that if she can&#8217;t shift the heart problem kitten (who now appears definitely to be Peggle's littermate) for £250 she can always dump it on another charity. I so hope no one from here bails her out again.


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

Tje said:


> Thanks for your tuppenceworth ladies. I was hoping I was just so fired up that I was reading it incorrectly or totally getting muddled up with cattery names. Why all the lies????
> 
> Maybe she is hoping that if she cant shift the heart problem kitten (who now appears definitely to be Peggle's littermate) for £250 she can always dump it on another charity. I so hope no one from here bales her out again.


agreed but it's a no win situation -kittens best hope is in rescue but that just encourages her to produce more and so on


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2010)

Tje said:


> Thanks for your tuppenceworth ladies. I was hoping I was just so fired up that I was reading it incorrectly or totally getting muddled up with cattery names. Why all the lies????
> 
> Maybe she is hoping that if she cant shift the heart problem kitten (who now appears definitely to be Peggle's littermate) for £250 she can always dump it on another charity. I so hope no one from here bails her out again.


She said he has a heart murmor. I wouldnt class that as a terrible heart condition (although I wouldnt sell a kitten with such a problem I would keep it). 
She shouldnt be breeding sick kittens and she shouldnt be trying to sell it for £250!


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

depends on the degree of heart murmur and how well it's been assessed if at all -heart conditions can be very hard to detect -i had a cat who had a very unusual irregular beat that despite him being unwell as a kitten didn't get picked up until after he was castrated and a grown cat.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2010)

My cavalier charlie has a heart murmor and is perfectly fine. He has to take it easy but hes alright.

Still not already to sell a sick kitten.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

can any of the breeders help me. I know so little about breeding and the genetics behind it

this paragraph below is copied from the ad on pets4homes I linked above.

_*I contacted the breeder after seeing her stud boy advertised. Her cats are not hcm screened, as she says that as long as the queen is clear the kittens will be fine. What nonsense. She has previously advertised one kitten with serious health conditions and has another sick kitten from the same litter advertised at present. This poor little kitten has a terrible heart problem. The owner thinks the kittens illness to be no big deal and not her problem! This breeder profits from producing sick kittens, does not health test and from her own admission has just bought 3 more queens.*_

Am I right in thinking that probably this womans stud carries faulty genes, possibly faulty heart genes? And thats why two from Peggles litter are sick? Am I also right in saying if I had a queen who was in tip top health, that my queen could still produce sickly kittens if she was paired with a stud who carried a gene possible for producing heart abnormalities . The woman from the add seems to be saying that stud must be tested for HCM and be cleared, yet the breeder seems to be saying that as long as the queen is clear there are no problems. Which is true?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> She said he has a heart murmor. I wouldnt class that as a terrible heart condition (although I wouldnt sell a kitten with such a problem I would keep it).


I was quoting from the warning ad on pets4homes, lol, hence the quotation marks . That add doesn't mention heart murmur at all, it mentions _*"This poor little kitten has a terrible heart problem". *_

Now obviously this breeder has spoken to delainew, who is to say delainew is telling us the truth that it's just a heart murmur? She lied on here that the cat wasn't related to Peggle, and that she was rehoming it for a friend. Why not lie about the heart condition too??

A week ago I would have given her the benefit of the doubt, not anymore.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2010)

Tje said:


> I was quoting from the warning ad on pets4homes, lol, hence the quotation marks . That add doesn't mention heart murmur at all, it mentions _*"This poor little kitten has a terrible heart problem". *_
> 
> Now obviously this breeder has spoken to delainew, who is to say delainew is telling us the truth that it's just a heart murmur? She lied on here that the cat wasn't related to Peggle, and that she was rehoming it for a friend. Why not lie about the heart condition too??
> 
> A week ago I would have given her the benefit of the doubt, not anymore.


Isnt delainew the breeder? 
delainew said it was a heart murmor, if she is the breeder then that maybe correct but then again she lied about it being her friends cat by the looks of it.


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Tje said:


> can any of the breeders help me. I know so little about breeding and the genetics behind it
> 
> this paragraph below is copied from the ad on pets4homes I linked above.
> 
> ...


All Ragdolls *must* be HCM tested, we are trying to rid the gene from the Ragdolls.

A kitten can have a heart murmur and be clear a few months on but I think I would rather be keeping the kitten until I was sure.

Everyone is different though.

The HCM angers me a tad.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> Isnt delainew the breeder?
> delainew said it was a heart murmor, if she is the breeder then that maybe correct but then again she lied about it being her friends cat by the looks of it.


delainew (winkys ragdolls) is the breeder... but the latest link I posted looks like it is posted by someone (another breeders I presume) who wanted to use delainew's stud services.

so the way I read it is... according to delainew it's a heart murmur
according to the warning add on pets4homes it's a terrible heart problem

I have no idea which is true. I just know I don't trust delainew anymore.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

mellowma said:


> All Ragdolls *must* be HCM tested, we are trying to rid the gene from the Ragdolls.
> 
> A kitten can have a heart murmur and be clear a few months on but I think I would rather be keeping the kitten until I was sure.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mellowmama, it's much the same with British Shorthairs I think (tho I don't breed them, juts own them) they too must have the HCM screening as heart probs are prevalent in that breed too.


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## tagalong (Jan 28, 2010)

as far as i know the FCK problem is definitely associated with the breed 
heart conditions can occur in all breeds but in some there is a genetic disposition making it more likely


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

From what I understand on HCM the cat should be tested every two years just because a cat is clear on one test dose'nt mean it will be HCM free all its life


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## Milly22 (Sep 15, 2008)

Dally Banjo said:


> From what I understand on HCM the cat should be tested every two years just because a cat is clear on one test dose'nt mean it will be HCM free all its life


Again very true. The thing is even when you visit the cardiologist it can show false result on the day, I send DNA's off yearly. It's not expensive, it's only £30 for 2 cats to be sent off.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

DISGUSTED!!!!

Right HCM according to bbm lol!

HCM is a heart condition that can occur to any cat however certain breeds seem more predisposed (coonies and raggies being the most common i think, though i'll just waffle about raggies here).

In ragdolls there are 2 types of testing. 

The first is a genetic test which can check whether the cat carries a mutated gene for HCM.

The second is an heart scan which is usually carried out annually and can ONLY confirm that the cat is not effected by HCM on the day of the test.

Now this is where things get complicated, The genetic test is only available for one mutation which causes hcm. There are a great many mutations, so the genetic test is not the only test to do. It only confirms whether the cat has or hasnt that particular gene. The heart scan, whilst very very good will only tell you whether the cat is free or effected at the time of the scan. This means a cat could scan clear for 12 years, and on its 13th year come down with the disease.

Good breeders are using a combination of the two tests, and study their lines with a fine tooth comb to try and ensure that they only ever breed from healthy cats. Sadly until every gene is identified, and a test developed there will always be some kittens born which will be effected by HCM. The chance is greatly reduced by good preparation, good knowledge of your lines, annual scans and genetic testing.

For a kitten to be effected it need only inherit one faulty gene from EITHER parent to get hcm. Kittens who inherit two copies of the gene (one from each parent), are thought to display the signs sooner and with more severity than those with a single copy.


In breeds with a high prevalance of HCM cats diagnosed with a heart murmur then HCM should ALWAYS be suspected. The first clinical sign of HCM the vet detects is often the murmur.

I hope that helps xx


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

My understanding is that there are different "classifications" for want of a better word.

A cat recieves paired genes - one from the mother and one from the father.

If both mother and father are clear of the known HCM gene - any kittens resulting from that mating are also considered clear.

If one parent is positive for the known HCM gene - any resulting kittens could be a carrier (having possibly inherited the gene from the parent)

If both parents are positive for the gene, any resulting kittens will be carriers at the very least.

Cats with one copy of the gene are considered to be carriers - they may not go on to develop HCM but are able to pass the gene to any offspring.

Cats with 2 copies of the gene have a much higher chance of developing HCM.

As far as I know, there are only 1 or 2 known genes so far - that's not to say that with further research, more may come to light in the future. With this in mind, even cats who test negative for this gene may still have a risk of being affected through another gene that is unknown at present.


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## sootisox (Apr 23, 2009)

BBM beat me to it and writes in a much more concise way than myself! :thumbup:


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

some good info on here about hcm, including links to the registrys holding the records for cats scanned etc.

Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) in cats


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