# Cockapoo



## Delta (Oct 1, 2009)

Ok, here we go, have decided, as a family, we are going to get a dog after losing our cat of 18 years but debate has been vigorous over breed. My wife has unilaterally decided that a cockapoo is the favoured choice, I am yet to be convinced , so my question to you fine people is two fold(3 actually I suppose):

a) Is she right and if so does anybody know of a decent place to purchase one and what are the pitfalls we could face?
b) Is she wrong and if so what small(ish) breed should we go for?

I apologize in advance if cross breeds like a cockapoo offend the purists of the dog world but would really appreciate some sound advice.

Thanks


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Delta said:


> Ok, here we go, have decided, as a family, we are going to get a dog after losing our cat of 18 years but debate has been vigorous over breed. My wife has unilaterally decided that a cockapoo is the favoured choice, I am yet to be convinced , so my question to you fine people is two fold(3 actually I suppose):
> 
> a) Is she right and if so does anybody know of a decent place to purchase one and what are the pitfalls we could face?
> b) Is she wrong and if so what small(ish) breed should we go for?
> ...


Hi, and welcome to the forum, no it doesnt offend me but baffles me why someone would want to cross the 2 or why anyone would want to buy the cross and not buy either a poodle or a cocker, i am a pure bred springer owner i have 2, and i do know people with cockers and they are lovely lively dogs, dont know anything really about poodles but sure there are poodle owner members you will hear from.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

I've seen lovely examples of Cockerpoos - and I'm not a purist as I've seen many a lovely mongrel that I could easily have stolen!! - but I wouldnt pay upwards of £800 for a cross - but each to their own - what is it about this cross that your wife likes?? 

You could get a non-shedding pedigree dog if an allergy is what is steering you towards Cockerpoos - they arent all suitable for allergy sufferers


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## Delta (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks you two, we really need the advice. I suppose it is close between a cocker spaniel and a cockapoo but she liked the idea of a non shedding about that size. Pricewise to be honest is not really an issue as long as the dog is healthy and comes from a caring background. Looked into a Tibetan Terrier but concerned as these dogs tend to have separation anxiety, or so we read. We don't go out for hours on end but don't want to come to a wrecked home or stressed out animal .


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

There is only a 50% chance (roughly) of a Cockapoo being non shedding I'm afraid despite what the breeders try to claim in their adverts.


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

What about a Bichon Frise - I know someone who has two and they are absolutely delightful dogs


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Saw my first one today dear little sole not a sad looking as i thought


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

with a cockerpoo you cant be sure what you're getting and some shed quite bad also finding a cockerpoo puppy where the parents have both been tested for relevant genetic conditions could be difficult, i would go with a cocker from a reputable breeder


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> There is only a 50% chance (roughly) of a Cockapoo being non shedding I'm afraid despite what the breeders try to claim in their adverts.


I agree totaly with this post i have a friend with a labradoodle and she moults and they were originally bred i believe for the non shedding.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

If you get the cocker coat then be warned they shed like mad and need alot of grooming unless you keep them very short. 

The only thing i would say is buy a cocker rather than spend the extra £400 on a "designer dog" for the label 

I have absolutely NOTHING against crosses, infact i think cockerpoos are very VERY cute but i personally couldn't justift the extra they cost ut:

I am not a purist as such just can't imagine an extra £400 would have bought me a better dog than the one i have  

I am not aware they offer anything more in terms of suitability, temperament, health just a few hundred quid extra


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

If its a non shedding breed you are after, what about a Bichon Freis, my next door neighbour have one and they are really cute, she said they are really good for non moulting.


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## Delta (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks for your comments, really appreciate them. I'm afraid the Bichon Frise would not really suit me as I'm 6'4 and I think I would give everyone a great laugh


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

They are about the same size as a Cockerpoo - or Cocker Spaniel


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Delta said:


> Thanks for your comments, really appreciate them. I'm afraid the Bichon Frise would not really suit me as I'm 6'4 and I think I would give everyone a great laugh


:001_tt2::001_tt2::001_tt2:

PMSL

I daren't tell my OH i want a Pug, he will never walk it LOL

He is OK with our cocker spaniel, he reckons it's ok because it's a working dog so just about passes the "man" test (LMAO my Oscar couldn't work for toffee LOL)

If you are able i would suggest a trip to Discover Dogs

Discover Dogs presented by the Kennel Club


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

Hi i have a cocker and to be honest he doesnt shed to badly if his coats kept short. I am bias but a cocker is a lovely family pet. There full of fun but need to be trained as the can be skatty and unruley...like any dog thats allowed to get away with to much. I got my cocker as i was a resgistred child minder and wanted a smallish dog. I was so pleased hes been amazing with all the childs {supervision always} the same with any dog and children. I will say since we had him neutered it did make his coat very thick and curly and he needs trimming around every 3 months or so but a cockerpoo would also need regular grooming sessions. I will say the cockapoos ive been lucky to meet are lovely dogs but as said in previous posts are not always non moulting. Have you considered just the normal poodle or cocker as there original breed. As mentioned bishons are non moulting and shitzus are bad either but require grooming. Good luck with your search.P.s cockers need a good amount of exercise or they can get into mischeif....


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

What about a miniature or small/medium sized standard poodle?


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

My boyfriend is 6'4, built like a tank and has no problem walking my 4lb fluff bomb chihuahua! That's a real man for ya!  

Can't give much advice on the Cockapoo but in Ireland you see them advertised for like 380 euro and less. I know some people still think that that is too much but it isn't £800 all the same. Dog prices do tend to be less here all round.


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## dancing dogs (Sep 1, 2009)

My friend has a cocker poo - glorious temperament but she did say to me it sheds quite a lot!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

jenniferx said:


> My boyfriend is 6'4, built like a tank and has no problem walking my 4lb fluff bomb chihuahua! That's a real man for ya!
> 
> Can't give much advice on the Cockapoo but in Ireland you see them advertised for like 380 euro and less. I know some people still think that that is too much but it isn't £800 all the same. Dog prices do tend to be less here all round.


I walk with a couple of pugs and one of them is so butch it's funny.

Just got to convince the OH LOL


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I walk with a couple of pugs and one of them is so butch it's funny.
> 
> Just got to convince the OH LOL


Love pugs always wanted a black pug but was always vary due to health issues sometimes with some .


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

> I walk with a couple of pugs and o*ne of them is so butch* it's funny


The dog or the man (or woman!)? LOL.

I wouldn't regard Pugs as all that feminine, I think they are kinda masculine dogs- sort of. At least a bit.


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## Ducky (Nov 23, 2008)

hello, and welcome.

my friends have a cockapoo, who is a lovely dog. he doesnt shed luckily for them as thats what they were looking for, however that is not always the case with cockapoos. 
you do need to be careful where you get the pup from, my friends unfortunatley got theirs from a farm (we had no idea they were getting a pup so couldnt advise and it was their first dog) and he did suffer with some health problems at the start of his life. he is a happy healthy dog now however. and a complete loony!!

my only advise is as i said to be careful where u purchased the dog from. i am also extremely against the high prices being asked for these crosses. i have absolutely nothing against crossbreeds, i have owned one. but unfortunately there are a lot of people out there purely wanting to make money out of them. 

good luck in ur search for the perfect pup


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

jenniferx said:


> The dog or the man (or woman!)? LOL.
> 
> I wouldn't regard Pugs as all that feminine, I think they are kinda masculine dogs- sort of. At least a bit.


pugs are suitable for anyone, honestly they are a great little dog, so full of character they have you in stiches


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

Delta said:


> Thanks for your comments, really appreciate them. I'm afraid the Bichon Frise would not really suit me as I'm 6'4 and I think I would give everyone a great laugh


Get a longer Lead.........lolol They are the same size as a cockerpoo mind.xxxxxxxxxxxxx


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Whatever you decide, make sure you ask for evidence of the relevant health test results for the breed(s).

I am a purist, and don't like to see the fashionable cross breeds (or pedigrees for that matter) demanding high prices simply because they are the latest must have.

However, there are good and bad amongst any group of breeders, whether they are pedigree or mongrel; what ever you decide, the best decision is to support someone who breeds ethically, after all, who is to say a cockapoo won't make as good a pet dog as a cocker spaniel or miniature poodle? Personally, I'd go for the cocker


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sullivan said:


> Love pugs always wanted a black pug but was always vary due to health issues sometimes with some .


I had never even considerred them but i am smitten.

The ones i walk with are absolutely fine, robust, healthy and fantastic characters.

I think it's just a breed you have to do your homework on


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> pugs are suitable for anyone, honestly they are a great little dog, so full of character they have you in stiches


They are hysterical and fab with my little girl.


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## Delta (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks to all who replied, really appreciate it, I don't really want to line the pockets of the unscrupulous and i certainly don't want a dog that's in ill health, for all our sakes. The designer part of it never really occurred to me to be honest just a matter of the right dog. Out of interest then, whats the best way of checking out a breeder?, other than asking questions, are they registered anywhere and monitored? ...or is that a bit simplistic of me


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Delta said:


> Thanks to all who replied, really appreciate it, I don't really want to line the pockets of the unscrupulous and i certainly don't want a dog that's in ill health, for all our sakes. The designer part of it never really occurred to me to be honest just a matter of the right dog. Out of interest then, whats the best way of checking out a breeder?, other than asking questions, are they registered anywhere and monitored? ...or is that a bit simplistic of me


Do you mean for a cockerpoo or any breed ???


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## Delta (Oct 1, 2009)

Well lets narrow it down to cockerpoos and cocker spaniels?


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## Jo P (Dec 10, 2007)

You can check the KC Accredited Breeders Scheme - it's a good starting point - but I find by far the best method is word of mouth - go to some shows and talk to people about your chosen breed - look on Champdogs for show results and check peoples web pages - these can of course be a load of old BS so you need to ring peeps ask loads of questions and go with your instincts


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cocker spaniels

The Cocker Spaniel Club,Parent Club of the Breed in the UK

Lot's of helpful advice here.

If you like the breeder and they do the health tests and register with the KC then that is a good start.

View parents WITH pups, ask lots of questions (a good breeder will fall over themselves to advise and help) 

This is what i SHOULD have done  instead of buying from some random advert on Pets4homes, luckily i picked a goodun (i hope)

Just to get you in the mood and because i LOVE an excuse to post a piccie


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## Delta (Oct 1, 2009)

Gorgeous ... thanks for the advice


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> They are hysterical and fab with my little girl.


they are the most fantastic little dog with kids mine are very healthy, can run for england and very fit


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

There seem to be cockapoos around at much more sensible prices. I had a pup booked and it was going to be £400 but then the bitch didnt come in season and I found Candy (miniature poodle). Surely a cocker and most cockerpoos are quite a bit bigger than a bichon. I saw a cockapoo recently that was really quite big and had a lovely coat as well.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

archiebaby said:


> they are the most fantastic little dog with kids mine are very healthy, can run for england and very fit


Well they keep their place among a pack of labs a cocker and a Eurasier and one of them is the Top Dog .

As i said i am smitten


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

if i were you what ever you decide just make sure breeding stock have been health screened....poodles should be eye tested and have DNA test for PRA, cockers should have eye test including gonioscopy, DNA test for PRA plus hip scoring


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm also a purist and don't like these designer breeds. I have a purebred cocker spaniel, and he is my best friend. He's been hard work to train but a love too. He needs at least 2 x 1 hour walks a day, with about 30 minutes of that off lead. He also gets 1 x 2-3 hour walk every weekend. He is very lively and he loves agility. Great family pet and loves children. We keep his coat very short so he hardly sheds at all, and we don't have to do hardly any brushing (apart from ears and tail which we keep long). I found my cocker from the Kennel Club. Ask about health tests:

PRA tested - both parents clear
Optien (spelling?) - both parents clear
Hip scores (my cocker's parents didn't have this but it is advisable)

I think that's it off the top of my head. Always see the mother with the pups, don't accept any excuse. I paid about £600 for my cocker, so except about this region.

I don't know much about cockerpoos, but I agree with others that it's highly unlikely that you will find a reputable breeder that only breeds from health tested dogs that breeds cockerpoos. Best bet to go for a cocker spaniel.


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## archiebaby (Feb 25, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> Well they keep their place among a pack of labs a cocker and a Eurasier and one of them is the Top Dog .
> 
> As i said i am smitten


oh, i dont doubt it for a second go with your instincts, you wont be dissappointed, i promise


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Delta said:


> Thanks to all who replied, really appreciate it, I don't really want to line the pockets of the unscrupulous and i certainly don't want a dog that's in ill health, for all our sakes. The designer part of it never really occurred to me to be honest just a matter of the right dog. Out of interest then, whats the best way of checking out a breeder?, other than asking questions, are they registered anywhere and monitored? ...or is that a bit simplistic of me


There is no decent breeder of cross breeds, and health wise you would be hitting a minefield. Those breeding crosses and putting stupid names to them are using dogs which are not good enough within their own breed to be bred from, [ as in ethical breeders would not use them or stud their dogs to them as they are not going to benefit the one breed ], and any claiming they health test before producing crossbreeds are conning people, there are all sorts of problems galloping into the designer crosses as a result of mis-matches and assumptions of so called hybrid vigour.

Also with crosses there is no way to know which breeds gene`s will be predominant for each aspect of looks, traits, size, and adult coat, [ every pup in the same litter can and often do look completely unrelated to each other ], and as they are not from good lines, [ no reputable ethical breeder with good lines crosses their dogs ! ], there is no ancestry basis for potentials on general health or temperament.

You need to consider if the potential combination of the worst physical and temperament traits of each breed coming at you full on is something you are equipped for. 
If not then research one breed and go to a breed savvy rescue, or to an ethical health testing breeder who will fire questions at you, will home check you, and will support you with help/advice for the life time of the pup including expecting you to sign a contract agreeing to return pup to the breeder if things don`t work out at any time of the pups life.
Also expect an ethical breeder to put endorsements on of No Breeding, or of compulsory neuter, or of endorsements which may be lifted subject to health test results and the dog proving themselves as a superior example of the breed.

Best source if you would definitely like a crossbreed really would be from a rescue which temperament tests and if a puppy from rescue will at least mean not lining a designer breeders pockets.
:smilewinkgrin:


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## gilly145 (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi there Delta - I actually own a Cockapoo and think your wife has made a great choice in dog!!

I agree with others that you should try and find a reputable breeder but please do not let people put you off just because it is not a recognised breed. My dog is gorgeous - yes I know everyone says that about their own dog, but he is lovely, lively and has a great temperament. 

As already said, you cannot guarantee that a Cockapoo will not shed. We were lucky in that our Charlie doesn't, but others do - if you have allergy sufferers in the family it would probably be a good idea to go and meet the pups before buying. 

You will probably end up more confused by listening to people on here as there are quite conflicting attitudes towards cross-breed dogs. All I can tell you is that we have a wonderful member of our family who is a Cockapoo and we love him to bits!! 

Good luck with your search,

Gilly
x


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

gilly145 said:


> Hi there Delta - I actually own a Cockapoo and think your wife has made a great choice in dog!!
> 
> I agree with others that you should try and find a reputable breeder but please do not let people put you off just because it is not a recognised breed. My dog is gorgeous - yes I know everyone says that about their own dog, but he is lovely, lively and has a great temperament.
> 
> ...


is it difficult to find a cockerpoo breeder who does all the relevant heath tests for both the breeds in the cross?


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## gilly145 (Oct 19, 2008)

I really don't know how easy/difficult it is to find a reputable breeder for a cross-breed or pedigree dog - in my little world I don't see them as different, they are just dogs


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

gilly145 said:


> I really don't know how easy/difficult it is to find a reputable breeder for a cross-breed or pedigree dog - in my little world I don't see them as different, they are just dogs


& i agree a dogs a dog but i think whether pedigree or crossbreed all dogs used for breeding should be health tested & i thought as you had a cockerpoo you might know of some reputable breeders?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Cockapoo breeders can be found on the big wide web.
I am sure they would be more than happy to discuss all the testing they do.
I know if you look you will find many great ones out there.
I know a few good ones who do all the health tests etc.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> & i agree a dogs a dog but i think whether pedigree or crossbreed all dogs used for breeding should be heath tested & i thought as you had a cockerpoo you might know of some reputable breeders?


been looking on the web for one but cant find one!  found one that health tests and there in america


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## gilly145 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm no expert on Cockapoo breeders because I have one - I have a Cockerpoo that I bought from what at the time I hoped to be a reputable breeder. If I was buying a pure-breed dog at the time I would have been in the same situation.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Funny lots of my friends own Cockerpoos and they are fully health tested.
Look and you will find.
Its the same with all dogs do your reseach and ask others and you will always find.
Good luck in finding your Cockerpoo.
If you need a good breeder feel free to pm me thanks.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Cockapoo breeders can be found on the big wide web.
> I am sure they would be more than happy to discuss all the testing they do.
> I know if you look you will find many great ones out there.
> I know a few good ones who do all the health tests etc.


its not for myself but the op but ive had a little google but cant find many just a couple that do eye test but without a gonioscopy and no hip score, maybe you can help the op find a breeder then that does all the tests


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Funny lots of my friends own Cockerpoos and they are fully health tested.
> Look and you will find.
> Its the same with all dogs do your reseach and ask others and you will always find.
> Good luck in finding your Cockerpoo.
> If you need a good breeder feel free to pm me thanks.


There is no need to be so touchy! I cant find any breeders in the UK that does all health test and breed this breed, i been looking over 30mins now! you could show us?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thank you DD for your reply.
I do not feel the need to advertise breeders on a public forum as its classed as advertising.
You know the RULES!
If Delta would like some info as i said she can pm me thank you.


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2009)

no problem at all! will you please send me the website to some of these breeders you know thank you!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> There is no decent breeder of cross breeds, and health wise you would be hitting a minefield. Those breeding crosses and putting stupid names to them are using dogs which are not good enough within their own breed to be bred from, [ as in ethical breeders would not use them or stud their dogs to them as they are not going to benefit the one breed ], and any claiming they health test before producing crossbreeds are conning people, there are all sorts of problems galloping into the designer crosses as a result of mis-matches and assumptions of so called hybrid vigour.
> 
> Also with crosses there is no way to know which breeds gene`s will be predominant for each aspect of looks, traits, size, and adult coat, [ every pup in the same litter can and often do look completely unrelated to each other ], and as they are not from good lines, [ no reputable ethical breeder with good lines crosses their dogs ! ], there is no ancestry basis for potentials on general health or temperament.


Excellent advice.



> If I was buying a pure-breed dog at the time I would have been in the same situation.


Of course you would, but surely you would be ensuring that the parents were health tested with good results?


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

all my girls parents were health tested. 

cockapoos tend to be taller that a Bichon, well my lot are anyway and so are the others i have met, but they were all crossed with a miniature poodle, but a toy may well be the same size as a Bichon. 

we are very happy with our lot an couldn't have asked for better. 


hope you find a wee companion what ever breed you go for.


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## gilly145 (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm a bit confused as to why there is the need for proof of health tested cockapoo's - I have just been looking at Cocker Spaniel puppies and non of these adverts go into health tests either???

How do you find a reputable pure-bred breeder please - I'm not sure I can find much difference between the adverts for cross-breeds and pure-bred dogs.

To the OP - if you would like to see some pictures / hear more about my Cockapoo, please just let me know. People on here get quite upset about my dog for some reason - no idea why as if I had the choice again I would pick that 'breed' again and again!!


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## Guest (Oct 1, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Thank you DD for your reply.
> I do not feel the need to advertise breeders on a public forum as its classed as advertising.
> You know the RULES!
> If Delta would like some info as i said she can pm me thank you.


just seen the bit you added! Thats a shame you cant show it on here! I wasnt aware it was against rules to put websites on here! people have asked for mine many times which i have given! even asked by a mod once! people link things all the time to litters for sale and good/bad breeders never been a problem before.. good for you trying to help her but i would have liked to see also..


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I'm a bit confused as to why there is the need for proof of health tested cockapoo's


All breeding bitches and dogs should be health tested regardless of whether a purebreed or a cross and reputable breeders will do these tests before breeding.



> I'm not sure I can find much difference between the adverts for cross-breeds and pure-bred dogs.


I think you may be looking in the wrong places  Many purebreed breeders do not health test their bitches and dogs, but they are not reputable breeders.


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## maisyjess (Feb 7, 2009)

How about a Bedlington, they're smallish and don't shed?
I know cos I have one


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

gilly145 said:


> I'm a bit confused as to why there is the need for proof of health tested cockapoo's - I have just been looking at Cocker Spaniel puppies and non of these adverts go into health tests either???
> 
> How do you find a reputable pure-bred breeder please - I'm not sure I can find much difference between the adverts for cross-breeds and pure-bred dogs.
> 
> To the OP - if you would like to see some pictures / hear more about my Cockapoo, please just let me know. People on here get quite upset about my dog for some reason - no idea why as if I had the choice again I would pick that 'breed' again and again!!


it depends where youre looking most good breeders wont advertise on epupz,preloved or other similar sites, have a look on champ dogs they'll be lots of good breeders who health screen their dogs on there and english cocker breed club will give you reputable breeders.


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## gilly145 (Oct 19, 2008)

Dundee said:


> All breeding bitches and dogs should be health tested regardless of whether a purebreed or a cross and reputable breeders will do these tests before breeding.
> 
> Sorry, that's not what I meant - I meant that I don't understand why I've never before seen anyone on here ask for examples of a proof of advert for health tested pure-bred dogs. I might be not explaining that well, sorry.
> 
> I think you may be looking in the wrong places  Many purebreed breeders do not health test their bitches and dogs, but they are not reputable breeders.


There are also Cockapoo breeders who do not health test their bitches and dogs too, and also they are not reputable breeders.

I think we are in agreement there.


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## Acacia86 (Dec 30, 2008)

To the OP....i am not a 'purist' i don't breed, and although i would love to one day, i doubt i will not until i am retired lol! But having said that.....i do not like the fact dogs of different breedings, without proper health testings and clears, are put together and their beautiful offspring are sold for extortionate amounts of new owners hard earned cash. There are enough pedigree's in ill health without adding more........let alone the rescue crisis in the UK.
A lot of 'breeders' of cross breeds advertise them as 'designer' or 'rare' etc etc

But not all. Don't be put off. If you as a family have decided to go for a Cockerpoo then thats your decision. But please bear in mind there are many unscrupulous breeders who see ££££ signs, for these dogs. A very healthy, happy, well socialised Cockerpoo can be found. It takes dedication and much research into the breeders. You might well go and view a few of these litters of puppies.....but please bear in mind that without proof of the health testing etc then they will 99.9% of the time not have been done. Not only that don't 'feel sorry' for a puppy. I know its hard when you see a pup but if you buy from this type of breeder it only encourages them to do it again.

The breeder should be asking just as many questions about you, your lifestyle etc as you will asking them. Some people feel that breeders 'pry' but they don't. They care. Care about where their beloved puppies are going.

With all said above....it has to be the whole family's decision and agreement...a family getting a puppy must all agree on the breed/type. If not there could be amnimosity and heartache to follow....although it might not seem like it at first. I know this sadly.

I am not aiming it directly at Cockerpoo's if you all decide on a Cocker Spaniel....all the above still needs to be considered.

Whatever breed you choose bear these in mind and whatever puppies you see stick to them:

1. Both parents Health testing for their relevant tests.......and passed. (you also need to see the certificates)
2. Puppies and mum should be at ease and friendly
3. The area the pups are kept in should be clean and fresh
4. Pups (or mum) should not be fearful or aggressive
5. No puppy (or mum) should appear even in the slightest sickly
6. The puppies are well socailised to many different things

I am so sorry for the long post! :blushing:

I really hope you all decide a breed for you and then the search is on!!! 
xx


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

I think it's a bit of a shame that what could have been a really good opportunity to sing the praises of the Cockerpoo and provide useful and valuable information to the OP is shrouded in sarcasm cheap shots and point scoring AGAIN 

I understand why some people feel it necessary to defend their breed given the history on here but i really think it would be better to get beyond that and just give out the facts to people who are genuinely interested so there is a balance of opinions.

Telling the OP to trawl the internet seems a bit wierd considering by coming here that is kind of what they are doing.

I thought that was the point of this site, to give advice.


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Patch said:


> There is no decent breeder of cross breeds, and health wise you would be hitting a minefield. Those breeding crosses and putting stupid names to them are using dogs which are not good enough within their own breed to be bred from, [ as in ethical breeders would not use them or stud their dogs to them as they are not going to benefit the one breed ], and any claiming they health test before producing crossbreeds are conning people, there are all sorts of problems galloping into the designer crosses as a result of mis-matches and assumptions of so called hybrid vigour.
> 
> Also with crosses there is no way to know which breeds gene`s will be predominant for each aspect of looks, traits, size, and adult coat, [ every pup in the same litter can and often do look completely unrelated to each other ], and as they are not from good lines, [ no reputable ethical breeder with good lines crosses their dogs ! ], there is no ancestry basis for potentials on general health or temperament.
> 
> ...


Great post! 
And to say also, I have been looking at suitable studs regarding my own breed for sometime now (not saying we are having a little just putting a few matches into the database) The first thing I did was rule out any stud dog whereby the owner made such statements as CROSS MATINGS WELCOME, or similar statements that indicated they could not care diddlydee swat what their dog mated with so long as they got paid!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Finding a reputable breeders is not an easy task regardless of breed or crossbreed....
KC registration nor accredited breeder schemes state nothing about a breeder being actually reputable.

The only thing u can do is make a list what to look out for....

Health tests for parents for each breed (NOT health checks by vet) with proof of certificate and of course with good results...
Health checked before leaving for new home...
Breeder asking questions and being very interested in the new home...
Breeder can answer questions about its breed...
U get to see the mom with the pups and on request u can arrange to meet the stud dog (obviously u would have to make ur way to see them)
Dogs should have a good temperament and not showing any aggression nor fear...
Enviroment pups are kept in is clean, pups are clean, no sticky eyes etc etc
Breeder will insist and inform that if any problems should arise they take the dog back...
How many litters do they breed per year?
there is so much more to look out for but i just quick put down what sprung to my mind 

Also if u look at a crossbreed look at the parents as the pups could turn out as big as the mom or as small as the dad, have the coat of the poodle or the coat of the cocker etc etc ... obviously u will get a mix or a pup with the tendency to look more like the mom or the dad.... 



i just been trawling a few sites of cockapoos and all of them i looked at fool the person by statements such as self acclaimed reputable breeders, that they do health checks which is easy for anyone to confuse with health tests, they state they breed for quality ... but what is quality in their eyes?
The same for pedigree breeders sadly!

I think if someone knows of an reputable breeder surely a link to their website would only benefit the responsible breeding (which this forum is trying to aim at) as there are others trawling the internet blinded by the foolish statements on those websites and here at least they would be assured that they will be directed in the right direction.

Its new to me this rule and alot breeders have links to their own websites in their signatures so whats the difference??

I for one see THE NEED to advertise RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS as they are going down inbetween all the bad ones and a forum is the best place to make them stand out for the public eye 

The only reason i would see someone not wanting to be Pointed to rateher than "advertised" on this forum is being critizised for their wrongs!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

I found this on Wikapedia - it's been well written and gives details of recommended health tests. Worth a read I think if you are considering a Cockerpoo.
Cockapoo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The one I've met have had lovely temperments and been very sweet.

Good luck in finding the right pup for you.


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## manicmania (Sep 25, 2009)

Hello Cockapoo's are lovely looking little doggies but what ever you do be it cockapoo or pedigree please do the homework
This is the type of advert to avoid as its a lot of Bull imo

Here at ***** we are dedicated to recording the breeding of cockapoos as being the correct breeding involving only pure (traceable) cocker spaniels and pure (traceable) poodles to create the cockapoo and true cockapoo to cockapoo for generational breeding.will also be able to provide the scientific and genetic basis needed to declare the cockapoo a true breed, up from a hybrid cross. Cockapoos have been bred since at least the 1950`s as an ideal companion pet and family dog. Here at ****** we produce successive generations and to keep detailed breeding records that will be able to stand the scrutiny if required for upcoming registry. All our dogs live together as part of our family. or American Cockers are acceptable as dams or sires . The hybrid vigor resulting from crossing these two popular breeds creates a dog that exhibits not only the "best of both" breeds but produces a better family pet than in either parent breed. The Cockapoo has become known and in demand for its wonderful disposition, high intelligence and curiosity, devoted loyalty, as well as for the hypoallergenic characteristics of little to no dander, shedding or odor.

Sounds like they could sell snow th the Eskimos but note no health tests mentioned


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## ThomBassmonkey (Jul 17, 2009)

I've not read the whole thread since some people (again) have resorted to trying to just offend breeders and owners of crossbreeds so sorry if I've missed anything.

When you're looking for a good breeder for a cross breed, just keep in mind the same advice as you'd look for in BOTH breeds. So make sure both parents have all the relevant tests done.

If you can, try finding a breeder who's actually breeding from 2 cockapoos, that way you'll have a slightly better idea of how the pups will turn out (apart from the fact that the pups are slightly more likely to be like the parents (though they could still turn out completely different), they should have photos of the parents as youngsters and maybe previous litters as pups then a bit older so you can compare coats, though be very wary if there's loads of previous litters).

If you're looking at pups bred from 2 cockapoos, make sure that the parents are health tested for all the problems for both breeds.

There's a cockapoo at the puppy club we go to with Rufus (our doodle) and she's such a sweet thing, she'll just sit there and watch what's going on while all the other pups try and tear each other apart (half - thankfully including Rufus - of them in play, half of them in earnest.)


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Great post Natik, the only problem is that one person's 'reputable breeder' will be another's 'byb' !

The one thing that people often confuse is health checks and health tests.

Health checks are done by their own vet and really mean nothing in terms of breeding. Health tests are carried out by specialists and require specialist evaluation some by the BVA. Other health tests are done on DNA so samples are sent to various laboratories here in the UK and abroad. All health tests will have specific certificates giving the results as well as listing Registration numbers and microchip numbers.


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I think it's a bit of a shame that what could have been a really good opportunity to sing the praises of the Cockerpoo and provide useful and valuable information to the OP is shrouded in sarcasm cheap shots and point scoring AGAIN
> 
> I understand why some people feel it necessary to defend their breed given the history on here but i really think it would be better to get beyond that and just give out the facts to people who are genuinely interested so there is a balance of opinions.
> 
> ...


Well said Rainy, And personally I feel that any person trawling the many advertisements on the web with little knowledge of the particlar breed they are seeking are entering a minefield! BYB & Puppy farmers are both very good at deceiving the public and hiding the truth! 
DT


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## Delta (Oct 1, 2009)

Once again thanks to all who took the time to reply, we've learnt a lot actually and have sent a few PMs out for a bit more guidance. DT, what you just posted is nail on head time from our point of view, personally and being one of life's skeptics I would never swallow all I read on those sites anyway and would always try and get recommendations if poss and do some homework, hence this original question.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

There are now plenty of cockerpoos turning up at rescues, rather than perpetuate the breeding of these dogs maybe getting a rescue is worth a shot? I know many members on here have said their cockerpoos are fit and healthy,sadly I am aware of many that have not turned out as well, and have subsequently ended up at the rescue I work at. health tests on both parents are of the utmost importance, but to be honest I cant see why a breeder would have all the relevant health test, pay the expence of campaining those dogs at shows etc, to prove they are structually worthy of breeding from, and then go and mess it up by cross breeding? it just dosnt add up in my mind. the net is FULL of adverts for crosses like these, many are people who just happen to own a dog of each breed and let them mate, some may have a bitch of the breed, and a friend with the other breed, see there is money to be made and follow it through, sadly this is all too often the case, and they dont all have the fantastic temperment that is portrayed in this thread, we have had cockerpoos that have been downright dangerous and not been able to rehome them, so IMO buyer beware.

Mo


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

moboyd said:


> There are now plenty of cockerpoos turning up at rescues, rather than perpetuate the breeding of these dogs maybe getting a rescue is worth a shot? I know many members on here have said their cockerpoos are fit and healthy,sadly I am aware of many that have not turned out as well, and have subsequently ended up at the rescue I work at. health tests on both parents are of the utmost importance, but to be honest I cant see why a breeder would have all the relevant health test, pay the expence of campaining those dogs at shows etc, to prove they are structually worthy of breeding from, and then go and mess it up by cross breeding? it just dosnt add up in my mind. the net is FULL of adverts for crosses like these, many are people who just happen to own a dog of each breed and let them mate, some may have a bitch of the breed, and a friend with the other breed, see there is money to be made and follow it through, sadly this is all too often the case, and they dont all have the fantastic temperment that is portrayed in this thread, we have had cockerpoos that have been downright dangerous and not been able to rehome them, so IMO buyer beware.
> 
> Mo


i,ve seen a couple of labradoodles and cockerpoos at clicker classes
who have been a utter nightmare , temperment wise and very hard to train
im not saying all are like it
but as you say far too many just put 2 dogs together and don,t give a darn how they turn out
just want the cash


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## sullivan (Aug 29, 2008)

RAINYBOW said:


> I had never even considerred them but i am smitten.
> 
> The ones i walk with are absolutely fine, robust, healthy and fantastic characters.
> 
> I think it's just a breed you have to do your homework on


Yes so true ,did get a few books out but by the time i had read through the health section i was put off slightly. Also my mates is very gassy and sinks the whole house out even though hes not a large dog. Have seen quite a few around and i to love there character there a small dog in a neat package with personailty to match.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

you're 6'4? why don't you get a standard poodle? 

Poodles don't shed and are darlings!


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

ad_1980 said:


> you're 6'4? why don't you get a standard poodle?
> 
> Poodles don't shed and are darlings!


A standard poodle like Mika?  :smilewinkgrin:


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Unclipped standard poodle


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> A standard poodle like Mika?  :smilewinkgrin:


you realise mika is a toy don't you cheeko lol!

Yes just like Mika  No not really any colour would do - well IMO not white but again that's my opinion.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

sullivan said:


> Yes so true ,did get a few books out but by the time i had read through the health section i was put off slightly. Also my mates is very gassy and sinks the whole house out even though hes not a large dog. Have seen quite a few around and i to love there character there a small dog in a neat package with personailty to match.


Absolutely. They get on great with Oscar too. He adores them. We walked round The Gog Magog Down today for an hour and they could have easily done twice that.



lauren001 said:


> Unclipped standard poodle


I love them unclipped


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Rainybow said:


> I love them unclipped


So do I.


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## Ducky (Nov 23, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> Unclipped standard poodle


oh my! gorgeous


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Unclipped standard poodle


 Needs it face shaved and badly!! I'd better not say my reason for not liking their faces long though otherwise the topic could get locked  Send it to me and I'll make it look like a proper poodle 



ad_1980 said:


> you realise mika is a toy don't you cheeko lol!
> 
> Yes just like Mika  No not really any colour would do - well IMO not white but again that's my opinion.


Haha yes I realise now. I was thinking for weeks why he wasn't getting any bigger! I want a toy now because I miss Blu being smallish


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> Needs it face shaved and badly!! I'd better not say my reason for not liking their faces long though otherwise the topic could get locked  Send it to me and I'll make it look like a proper poodle
> 
> Haha yes I realise now. I was thinking for weeks why he wasn't getting any bigger! I want a toy now because I miss Blu being smallish


That makes a really good point. It is easy to look at a picture and think Awwwww how cute but you really have to KNOW a breed and what is healthy and good for it


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> Needs it face shaved and badly!! I'd better not say my reason for not liking their faces long though otherwise the topic could get locked  Send it to me and I'll make it look like a proper poodle :


I was thinking the exact same thing but i didn't want to say anything in case i'd be classed as being awkward or whatever lol! Lovely dog but def needs a haircut!



CheekoAndCo said:


> Haha yes I realise now. I was thinking for weeks why he wasn't getting any bigger! I want a toy now because I miss Blu being smallish
> 
> First you want a standard now you want a toy...make your mind up lol!


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> That makes a really good point. It is easy to look at a picture and think Awwwww how cute but you really have to KNOW a breed and what is healthy and good for it


It's not bad for them as such just that dogs coats starting to go curly/ringlets and that makes it alot hard to brush because matts start. Food gets left in the 'beard' and if it's light coloured you can get a horrible brown colour. Cheeko's not even got a long muzzle his is short but even he get's brown staining because he's white.



ad_1980 said:


> I was thinking the exact same thing but i didn't want to say anything in case i'd be classed as being awkward or whatever lol! Lovely dog but def needs a haircut!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think for many men the Poodle look and cut is a definite no no, I was just trying to illustrate that all poodles needn't look that way.


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

they are!!! i want another too but parents have a two dog policy at home grrr!

why don't you put it on your xmas list this year? Get a pic of a toy poodle - NOT MINE! LOL! - and put it on the list. I'll bet she bursts out laughing.

i went to my mum 'i want a puppy for xmas' and she just went 'in your next life maybe'. Its only a little toy poodle, not a st bernard darn it!


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think for many men the Poodle look and cut is a definite no no, I was just trying to illustrate that all poodles needn't look that way.


oh no they don't have to look that way you are right . But they do have to look a bit neater and tidier! Look at Mika. He has def not got that poodle cut. But we do make sure he is properly trimmed - that being said his face needs trimming and i don't know how to do it...think my dad is going to do it this weekend. I only hope he does a good job of it! I don't want to come home to my dog looking so bald on his face!!!!


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> It's not bad for them as such just that dogs coats starting to go curly/ringlets and that makes it alot hard to brush because matts start. Food gets left in the 'beard' and if it's light coloured you can get a horrible brown colour. Cheeko's not even got a long muzzle his is short but even he get's brown staining because he's white.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

Only a real man could walk a poodle in a nice poodle clip :001_tt2: Dad refuses to walk Cheeko unless it's dark but in the house he spoils him rotten. Thinks we don't realise


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> I think for many men the Poodle look and cut is a definite no no, I was just trying to illustrate that all poodles needn't look that way.


my old groomer was a big Butch guy, and he swears by poodles. thinks they are the best. they were all minnies, i think he had 4 or 5.

i also herd that poodles were once used as police dogs.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

kendal said:


> my old groomer was a big Butch guy, and he swears by poodles. thinks they are the best. they were all minnies, i think he had 4 or 5.
> 
> i also herd that poodles were once used as police dogs.


I heard standards were used in the police. I'm sure someone on here said it?


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I think for many men the Poodle look and cut is a definite no no, I was just trying to illustrate that all poodles needn't look that way.


I think that a lot of poodle lovers believe that men don't like the poodle because of its clip . . . that is not always the case.

I know my husband doesn't like the look of the poodle, just as he doesn't like the borzois or the show collie - he just doesn't like the look of a dog with an overly long slim muzzle and head, and he and I don't like the finer longer legged look on a dog either.

I think these kind of personal preferences are the reason there are so many looks to the breeds . . . but it is not all about the coat or cut. (Personally, I don't like bearded faces on any type of head including his - but that's just me.)


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> Only a real man could walk a poodle in a nice poodle clip :001_tt2: Dad refuses to walk Cheeko unless it's dark but in the house he spoils him rotten. Thinks we don't realise


Well at least your dad walks your dogs!

Dad only takes Dante and Mika when he feels he really has to, not because h he wants to. Drives me mad sometimes - it makes me wonder if i am the only one who bothers to look after them.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

ad_1980 said:


> Well at least your dad walks your dogs!
> 
> Dad only takes Dante and Mika when he feels he really has to, not because h he wants to. Drives me mad sometimes - it makes me wonder if i am the only one who bothers to look after them.


He only walks Cheeko if he has to. Will only take Blu into the garden because he thinks the clip he's in is too girly! Well he did take them both out a walk once but everyone was stopping him going 'Awww look at the puppy'


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

CheekoAndCo said:


> I heard standards were used in the police. I'm sure someone on here said it?


its in one of my mums breed books from before i was born.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

You could always think about getting a Cockapoo... or am I off topic :laugh:


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I think it's a bit of a shame that what could have been a really good opportunity to sing the praises of the Cockerpoo


They are not a breed, they are crossbreeds and should be addressed as such 



> and provide useful and valuable information to the OP is shrouded in sarcasm cheap shots and point scoring AGAIN


Where is the sarcasm ? There has been good advice given - that they are not a breed and that there is no telling what each pup from a crossbred litter will end up like - that is`nt sarcasm, it`s simple fact :smilewinkgrin:



> I understand why some people feel it necessary to defend their breed given the history on here


It`s not a case of defending a breed based on any forums history but of preserving the integrity of breeds, anyone breeding crosses deliberately is going against that integrity and don`t have good enough examples of a single breed to further that breed [ which is what any breeder should be striving for ], therefrore they turn out crosses and charge stupid money for them instead, with buyers not having a clue what they are going to end up with.



> but i really think it would be better to get beyond that and just give out the facts to people who are genuinely interested so there is a balance of opinions.


The responses for and against do give that - it`s as important to point out the pitfalls or there can be no balance, ie the crossbreeders who claim they health test don`t mention that those tests are completely irrelevant when crossing because the physical characteristics differ so much so skeletal problems ie dysplasia are rife in F1s, Lab x Poodles are rife with it and now with VwD and other dreadful health issues - ie the Lab x Poodle hip mean score is only one point better than Labs and is the same as Poodles so nothing `improved` there, and, when looking at the compared numbers tested, to have such a high mean score is absolutely dire, not surprising though when putting such different physical builds together, along with all the other designer hash jobs, it`s reprehensible, unethical, and utterly unnecessary.



> I thought that was the point of this site, to give advice.


That is what has been happening on the thread as far as I can see - just because someone might not like one side of the advice does`nt mean it should`nt be given :smilewinkgrin:

ps in case you are under the impression that I am a `breed purist [ well, ok yes I am for the aforementioned reasons :wink5: ], I have two [ rescued ] crossbreeds now, a Lurcher, for which that name indicates a type of cross, not a breed, and a BC x JRT of which deliberate breeders have assigned a stupid designer name which I will not use, my girl is a crossbreed, end of, and I did have a [ rescued ] Lab x Poodle - I won`t demean her memory by calling her the stupid designer name either. [ and yes she shed her coat :laugh: ].

If anyone does want a cross rather than a purebred the best advice imo is to go to a rescue, they are overflowing with them, it`s where they all have the same but correct `designer` name - *Crossbreed* - but without the Designer price tag :wink5:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Patch said:


> They are not a breed, they are crossbreeds and should be addressed as such
> 
> Where is the sarcasm ? There has been good advice given - that they are not a breed and that there is no telling what each pup from a crossbred litter will end up like - that is`nt sarcasm, it`s simple fact :smilewinkgrin:
> 
> ...


I think you missed the point of my post. I was referring to the posts that suggested the OP trawl the net to find a cockerpoo etc.

I totally agree with pretty much everything you say  
If you check back to my original posts on the thread you will see the advice i give to the OP is along those lines 

Just shows how things can get misunderstood on her


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> I think for many men the Poodle look and cut is a definite no no, I was just trying to illustrate that all poodles needn't look that way.


*Haha my hubby is a big guy and he doesn't give a hoot about being seen with my 2 toy poodles.And he gets loads of people asking about them.:
Mind you the other day we went to a d.i.y shop and he was in the car park and this woman asked if they were minitures and he said " no they are both toys", then her hubby came out of the shop and she said to him,"aw look at these miniture poodles", my hubby was quite offended.pmsl*


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Apart from Patch's post being almost entirely anecdotal and tries to put forward that a dog bred from the rules of an unregulated private club is in someway "better" than all others, the reference to the resuces being full of crossbreeds is a good starting place. This also applies to "pure" (KC dogs) and mongrels.

The reason, I suspect, that crossbreeders don't mention that crossbreeding from fully tested dogs is irrelevant, is because it is untrue. If it were true then the history of all KC dogs is flawed. 

I should add that if you do get KC dogs from rescue you are unlikely to get the pedigree (simply the history of the dog) whereas if you go to a good breeder (of crosses or KC dogs) you should get a full copy of all the health tests carried out and the history (pedigree).


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Working in a large rescue center, I can say that the majority of dogs that arrive in there are in fact cross breeds, then sbt/s collies/ and a few pedigrees, ethical breeders take back the dogs from their breeding so we dont tend to find many dogs that have been bred by an ethical breeder turning up, although the odd occassion it has happened and thankfully we have been able to track down the owner, and if the owner decide not to claim their dog we try to get hold of the breeder and give them the choice to come and claim, many do. the problem with cockerpoos is no backup from a breed rescue, that goes for many cross breeds, most pedigrees have a breed rescue, that know the breed and place the dogs in suitable homes, cross breeds end up in all breed shelters, where the staff may not know fully the traits of an individual x breed, and lets face it in a x breed different traits/personalities can come from each dog in the litter so it will always be difficult for rescue centers to advice on these dogs. and place them in suitable homes, which in turn may end up with that dog being what we call a rubber dog, bouncing back and forth between homes.

Mo


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

moboyd said:


> Working in a large rescue center, I can say that the majority of dogs that arrive in there are in fact cross breeds, then sbt/s collies/ and a few pedigrees, ethical breeders take back the dogs from their breeding so we dont tend to find many dogs that have been bred by an ethical breeder turning up, although the odd occassion it has happened and thankfully we have been able to track down the owner, and if the owner decide not to claim their dog we try to get hold of the breeder and give them the choice to come and claim, many do. the problem with cockerpoos is no backup from a breed rescue, that goes for many cross breeds, most pedigrees have a breed rescue, that know the breed and place the dogs in suitable homes, cross breeds end up in all breed shelters, where the staff may not know fully the traits of an individual x breed, and lets face it in a x breed different traits/personalities can come from each dog in the litter so it will always be difficult for rescue centers to advice on these dogs. and place them in suitable homes, which in turn may end up with that dog being what we call a rubber dog, bouncing back and forth between homes.
> 
> Mo


excellent post! this is one thing that really concerns me there are no breed rescues for all these crosses


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Actually you are wrong there are breed rescues for doodles.
Can we please get this back on topic thank you!
Delta was interested in advice on a Cokerpoo i do believe.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

moboyd said:


> Working in a large rescue center, I can say that the majority of dogs that arrive in there are in fact cross breeds, then sbt/s collies/ and a few pedigrees, ethical breeders take back the dogs from their breeding so we dont tend to find many dogs that have been bred by an ethical breeder turning up, although the odd occassion it has happened and thankfully we have been able to track down the owner, and if the owner decide not to claim their dog we try to get hold of the breeder and give them the choice to come and claim, many do. the problem with cockerpoos is no backup from a breed rescue, that goes for many cross breeds, most pedigrees have a breed rescue, that know the breed and place the dogs in suitable homes, cross breeds end up in all breed shelters, where the staff may not know fully the traits of an individual x breed, and lets face it in a x breed different traits/personalities can come from each dog in the litter so it will always be difficult for rescue centers to advice on these dogs. and place them in suitable homes, which in turn may end up with that dog being what we call a rubber dog, bouncing back and forth between homes.
> 
> Mo


Thank you but that is one rescue centre. Are you seriously saying that KC dogs have consistent temperment? I have met many dogs of many breeds (and owned them) and have never found complete consistency. We have 4 crosses and 3 with KC paperwork.

I think (again) the misleading thing for the OP here is that the common view of KC members is that their dogs are consistent in every way and that crosses are completely random. Not only does the genetics not add up in this argument, but neither does the human equation (I give you eugenics as an example). Dogs, like humans, are affected by their environment as well as their "breeding" so if KC dogs are bred without continuing health checks (which some are) are kept in poor conditions (which some are) you will end up with affected animals.

I did not want the OP to fall into the trap of believing that crosses are "bad" because KC breeders say so and that all KC dogs are "good" using the same logic.

You also infer that all KC breeders are ethical and breeders of crosses are not. My experience is the opposite. Breeders of crosses ahve to jump through hoops because of the suspicions whipped up by some, wheras many KC breeders go by the "well its a "pedigree" of course I'm a good breeder... I'm regulated by the (insert imaginary regulatory body here)."


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Can we please get this back on topic thank you!
> Delta was interested in advice on a Cokerpoo i do believe.


If someone wants a crossbreed then breed rescue, health issues, ethical/unethical breeders, price, and the option of another suitable breed are very much on topic I would have thought.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> the common view of KC members


It is highly unlikely there are any KC members on this forum !



> I did not want the OP to fall into the trap of believing that crosses are "bad" because KC breeders say so and that all KC dogs are "good" using the same logic.
> 
> You also infer that all KC breeders are ethical and breeders of crosses are not.


I cannot see any post where that has been said.



> My experience is the opposite. Breeders of crosses ahve to jump through hoops because of the suspicions whipped up by some, wheras many KC breeders go by the "well its a "pedigree" of course I'm a good breeder...


Then I would suggest that your experience is limited.

Take hip scoring as an example. Over 60,000 labradors have been hip scored whereas only 143 labradoodles have been hipscored. I'm not suggesting there are no breeders of crosses that health test, but they are in the minority.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Actually you are wrong there are breed rescues for doodles.
> Can we please get this back on topic thank you!
> Delta was interested in advice on a Cokerpoo i do believe.


People are only suggesting other breeds for him because there's no guarantee a 'cockapoo' will be non shedding  And I'm pretty sure he asked for suggestions on other breeds somewhere back in the topic because people were recomending bichons, someone said there alot smaller than a 'cockapoo' so people said a cocker or poodle


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Dundee said:


> It is highly unlikely there are any KC members on this forum !


I also think they will be in the minority. 
I think though that there are many, many ethical people here who do not like to see dogs used in an extremely commercial way by every tom, dick and harry who fuelled by the current market and fashion, are breeding any two completely random dogs together to make a "breed" with a fancy made up name and coin in the dosh from an unsuspecting public.



Dundee said:


> Over 60,000 labradors have been hip scored whereas only 143 labradoodles have been hipscored. I'm not suggesting there are no breeders of crosses that health test, but they are in the minority.


Good point.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

Patch said:


> There is no decent breeder of cross breeds, and health wise you would be hitting a minefield. Those breeding crosses and putting stupid names to them are using dogs which are not good enough within their own breed to be bred from, [ as in ethical breeders would not use them or stud their dogs to them as they are not going to benefit the one breed ], and any claiming they health test before producing crossbreeds are conning people, there are all sorts of problems galloping into the designer crosses as a result of mis-matches and assumptions of so called hybrid vigour.
> 
> ....
> [ no reputable ethical breeder with good lines crosses their dogs ! ], there is no ancestry basis for potentials on general health or temperament.


i find this quite offensive i have to say....it is tarring a category or very knowledgeable breeders that decided that the CON of the various national KC is detrimental to the dogs and good only to fuelling the pockets of those living around the rings and their sponsors...i left that world 20 odd years ago when i saw the conditions of purebreeds in Italy...and when i moved to this country, i could see that in the UK (and then i learnt also in Japan) the conditions have reached indescribable proportions akin to cruelty to the whole species ...and obviously everybody states that they are purist and breed to better their breed of choice...from a genetic pool that is more like a muddy pond without variety...in the end is the dogs that suffer

i breed crosses and i do so following the strictest guidelines, caring from the dogs from mating to whelping to re-homing... i have a lot to say in respect to so-called respectable/responsible pedigree breeders but i think we all know that...and if not i would invite people to check 
Population Structure and Inbreeding From Pedigree Analysis of Purebred Dogs -- Calboli et al. 179 (1): 593 -- Genetics
and other similar proper scientific peer-reviewed literature to understand what they are doing...

having said that, researching and talking to people and breeders is the way forward... observing the conditions where the pups have lived their first 8-14 weeks, observing the parents (the mother MUST always be with the pups...) etc will give you an idea of what you are dealing with... please do not INSULT excellent and hard working breeders, that work they heart off to produce outstanding dogs only because they do not comply with the ridiculous circus that is the KC of Britain or of any other so called developed country that allow inbreeding and instead of weeding off genetic faults promote monsters conformed ill heath dogs able to go around the showring or chase a rabbit and they die young and in miserable ways.

best
d


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Thank you but that is one rescue centre. Are you seriously saying that KC dogs have consistent temperment? I have met many dogs of many breeds (and owned them) and have never found complete consistency. We have 4 crosses and 3 with KC paperwork.
> 
> I think (again) the misleading thing for the OP here is that the common view of KC members is that their dogs are consistent in every way and that crosses are completely random. Not only does the genetics not add up in this argument, but neither does the human equation (I give you eugenics as an example). Dogs, like humans, are affected by their environment as well as their "breeding" so if KC dogs are bred without continuing health checks (which some are) are kept in poor conditions (which some are) you will end up with affected animals.
> 
> ...


First off I didnt say consistant temperments? many dog breeds have traits, a a husky can have hight prey drive, a rottie has guarding instinct etc, so you can more often than not let people know this is the "norm" obviously dogs vary as you say each dog is its own individual, but the "basics" are there, x breeds also have traits but they are far more varied than the norm because of whats behind them, lets say a xrotty husky? you have to be aware that either of the parent dogs traits can be in that x or in fact both, so you may have a x that has guarding instint OR high prey drive one or both.

I didnt say KC breeders I said ethical breeders big difference and I didnt say they were pedigree dogs so if you would like to re read my post you will see the most part of it was concerning the rescues and the problems the staff may encounter when dealing with x breeds.

Mo


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I think it is true that on both sides of the coin there are deep problems in the way that many breed dogs.
Inbreeding, the maintenance of structural faults, the ignorance of some breeders of genetics and the implications.
Any breeder who takes all this on board is of course doing a good job, however the problem is that many pedigree breeders are ethical, are doing the health tests, are weeding out problem dogs and are trying to make a difference to their particular breed,
If a cross breeder is also doing that then great, but those who seem to be drawn to breeding cross breed "breeds" are often of a different ilk.

Cross-breeds are the dogs who fill rescues, fact. It is therefore difficult to reconcile that fact and the ethics of deliberately breeding more of them.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> It is highly unlikely there are any KC members on this forum !
> 
> I cannot see any post where that has been said.
> 
> ...


Why did I ever take you off ignore... my experience (of breeders) is not limited simply because you say it is. Simply being dismissive of others view because you think they are incorrect (like your figures) is a little beneath you I think.

How many Cockers and how many poodles have been scored (as that is the cross)... that is the information more pertient to this post instead of just using a convenient (out of date and irrelevant) number relating to a cross that wasn't even under discussion.

I'm sorry if you think my response is bullying you.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Delta said:


> Ok, here we go, have decided, as a family, we are going to get a dog after losing our cat of 18 years but debate has been vigorous over breed. My wife has unilaterally decided that a cockapoo is the favoured choice, I am yet to be convinced , so my question to you fine people is two fold(3 actually I suppose):
> 
> a) Is she right and if so does anybody know of a decent place to purchase one and what are the pitfalls we could face?
> b) Is she wrong and if so what small(ish) breed should we go for?
> ...





CheekoAndCo said:


> People are only suggesting other breeds for him because there's no guarantee a 'cockapoo' will be non shedding  And I'm pretty sure he asked for suggestions on other breeds somewhere back in the topic because people were recomending bichons, someone said there alot smaller than a 'cockapoo' so people said a cocker or poodle


*Yes Delta did ask about other breeds as i've highlighted.*


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Why did I ever take you off ignore... my experience (of breeders) is not limited simply because you say it is. Simply being dismissive of others view because you think they are incorrect (like your figures) is a little beneath you I think.
> 
> How many Cockers and how many poodles have been scored (as that is the cross)... that is the information more pertient to this post instead of just using a convenient (out of date and irrelevant) number relating to a cross that wasn't even under discussion.
> 
> I'm sorry if you think my response is bullying you.


Well as it happens Dundee's figures are actually more acurate then you think.

Having booked my girl in for a hip score next week I took the time to check her pedigree in order to gauge the average score of her ancestry (not a lot of point I know as this will have not bearing on her score). It is very difficult now to either deny or try and falsify scores as all KC reg dogs that have been hip scored are on the KC database for all to see. I think if you check the database you will see that Dundees figures are pretty accurate.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I'm sorry if you think my response is bullying you.


On the contrary, this is a discussion, although feel free to put me back on ignore.

I was not being dismissive, simply correcting it. Judging by your comments, your understanding for what a KC member is seems misguided.

Your experience that most cross breed breeders have to jump through hoops is clearly limited if you think those that do jump through hoops is the majority or even the norm.

Your inference that owners/breeders of KC registered dogs say all KC regsitered dogs are good is again... misguided. As Moboyd has said, she did not mention KC breeders, she said reputable breeders.

To the OP, finding a well bred puppy from a reputable breeder is a minefield regardless of which breed/crossbreed you go for and doing your research on what is required for the relevant breed/crossbreed is imperitive. And don't take the word of the breeder, ensure they can back up all their claims with the relevant certificates.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Double trouble said:


> Well as it happens Dundee's figures are actually more acurate then you think.
> 
> Having booked my girl in for a hip score next week I took the time to check her pedigree in order to gauge the average score of her ancestry (not a lot of point I know as this will have not bearing on her score). It is very difficult now to either deny or try and falsify scores as all KC reg dogs that have been hip scored are on the KC database for all to see. I think if you check the database you will see that Dundees figures are pretty accurate.


So all Labradoodles that have been hip scored are recorded on the KC database are they?

I'm not sure how Labradoodles came into this thread (although I have an idea). A Cockerpoo is a cross so the scores that matter are the cocker and the poodle.


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

<waits for this thread to be locked like so many before it>


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

An article regarding the Cockapoo and health

Cockapoo : Health | Dog Time


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> although feel free to put me back on ignore.


I think it's for the best last time you lorded it I had the audacity to reply.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> So all Labradoodles that have been hip scored are recorded on the KC database are they?


The figures I got are not from the KC database, but the BVA's. And while they may be last years, the trend can be seen. No cockerpoo's have been recorded as being hip scored which means that the number that have been scored is between 0 and 10.


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## CheekoAndCo (Jun 17, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> <waits for this thread to be locked like so many before it>


O no I doubt it will because its ok for them to bring up doodles but not other people who don't agree with them


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> An article regarding the Cockapoo and health
> 
> Cockapoo : Health | Dog Time


Good to see a balanced article. Hybrid vigour is often misused and one thing to also bear in mind when cross breeding is that different breeds suffer from different conditions and by cross breeding you are potentially bringing in even more conditions.


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Dundee said:


> The figures I got are not from the KC database, but the BVA's. And while they may be last years, the trend can be seen. No cockerpoo's have been recorded as being hip scored which means that the number that have been scored is between 0 and 10.


and seeing that cockerpoos have apparenlty been going for some time this does not bode well.

Mo


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Cockapoos have been around since at least the 1960s, some sources say the 1950s.


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> Cockapoos have been around since at least the 1960s, some sources say the 1950s.


Cocker poo's as with Doodles have actaully been around quite a lot longer! They weree just known by a different name!
DT


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

one other bit of advice i would like to add for the OP,
once you have ticked all your boxes, check the contract!!!

if the contract is about money, run away as fast as you can

if the contract has only "the new owner section" run away...

a proper contract should mention:

the duties of the new owner,
the duties of the breeders 
a health guarantee where the steps undertook by the breeder are mentioned and hopefully verifiable (for example i include the veterinarian details as source for references) 
the terms and conditions for re-homing the dogs in case it doe not work out for whatever reason (i.e. taken back by the breeder, rehomed, who keeps the money for rehoming, refund policy, etc.)
a compulsory clause that states that the pup should be seen by a veterinarian within 3 days of the re-homing and reported back to the breeder

etc etc
all these are signs of best (or good) practices
including the mention of common law regarding purchase and customers' rights as well

as fro the dog per se...i suggest you go with what tickles your fancy for whatever reason...and keep you eyes peeled on the conditions of breeding, homing before placement and what happens after the placement...then the choice of dog is entirely personal (or to be discussed within people habiting the environment where the pup is going to grow up)...
hope this helps...
best regards and choose wisely!
D


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

CarolineH said:


> There is only a 50% chance (roughly) of a Cockapoo being non shedding I'm afraid despite what the breeders try to claim in their adverts.


I understood that the percentage was actaully lower then that! if it were a first cross and that the mother were the spanial! But feel free to correct me as I am only going on the back of the words of someone who has done it.
In this case The dam being the Cocker, the Sire the Poodle.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Dundee said:


> The figures I got are not from the KC database, but the BVA's. And while they may be last years, the trend can be seen. No cockerpoo's have been recorded as being hip scored which means that the number that have been scored is between 0 and 10.


omg thats discusting!

I know Colsey said she knows cockerpoo breeders that do all the heath tests, i think anyone trying to find a hip scored one, rather than trawling the internet, would be better off contacting her cos it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack!


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

Double trouble said:


> Cocker poo's as with Doodles have actaully been around quite a lot longer! They weree just known by a different name!
> DT


i completely agree. mongrel also think about the Portages Water Dog, The Irish Watter Spaniel, The Spanish Watter Dog, The Barbet , The Curly-Coated Retriever even extinct breeds like the English Water Spaniel, were all either poodle crosses or crossed with one of the above to create the breed.

i understand that my breed is probably just the start of one of thees breeds, its just that the motive for crossing is different now it is about money now and we all seem to want the newest thing and to feel like an individual.

when i went to crufts las year i was talking the Sussex spaniel breeders at discover dogs and they were telling me that they have been out breeding (if thats the term, sorry if its wrong) with the clumber to bring back verity into the breed so that they weren't crossing the same bloodlines as the Gene pool was small.

i agree that they should look into other breeds and just find what fits, if they still think coakapoo then they should go for it, if not then im sure what ever breed they get will be loved just as much.

good luck in you search, i hope you find you perfect pooch what ever it may be.


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I'm not sure how Labradoodles came into this thread (although I have an idea). A Cockerpoo is a cross so the scores that matter are the cocker and the poodle.


Well actually you are wrong there - well to a degree! Obviously it is vital that the sire and the dam have good hips but my mentor, One who has studied my breed first hand for many many years, and has picked up her vast knowledge first hand, and not by sitting in front of a computer reading who said and who did what actually prefers to base her calculations by entering all the hip scores of all the dogs in the ancastry into the equasion.

It's a well know fact that a mother who has perfect hips is NOT guaranteed to throw offspring with perfect scores. Hence the word hereditary!


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i understand that my breed is probably just the start of one of thees breeds, its just that the motive for crossing is different now it is about money now and we all seem to want the newest thing and to feel like an individual.


Well said, and it doesn't just apply to dogs, in fact, I'd say it's more of a reflection of the attitudes in society we have now... must have the latest trend... something a little bit different...etc.

The problem is that not only does it attract a high proportion of breeders doing it for financial gain as they can cash in on this trend, but it is also full of misconceptions, in part, due to there being no guidelines or breed standard.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Well said, and it doesn't just apply to dogs, in fact, I'd say it's more of a reflection of the attitudes in society we have now... must have the latest trend... something a little bit different...etc.
> 
> The problem is that not only does it attract a high proportion of breeders doing it for financial gain as they can cash in on this trend, but it is also full of misconceptions, in part, due to there being no guidelines or breed standard.


No breed standard as thats why they are called crossbreeds.ut:


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Colsy said:


> No breed standard as thats why they are called crossbreeds.ut:


What do the smiley face mean at the end please? Because I for one find none of this funny! It is a serious debate and should be taken as such!
DT


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> No breed standard as thats why they are called crossbreeds.


I realise that ut: thank you Colsy 

and because there is no breed standard or guide, breeders/owners can make false claims about their traits, characters etc. so misleading the buying public. The most common false claim is coat type. One of the reasons people give for getting a poodle cross is that it is non shedding/hypoallergenic and this is largely due to misconception and having it advertised as such by many breeders.


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## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

Cockapoo's can be lovely dog's I groom quite a few of them you can't be sure what they will turn out like i.e. what the coat and temperament will be like as it depends on what traits they take off ether parents, *normally* they are ruffly the same size as the spaniel but it all depends on what size poodle they have been crossed with.

If you want a cockapoo then don't let anyone tell you not to it's your choice and nobody else's at the end of the day the dog will be living with you!
Like any breed of dog do your research and only go for a dog that has all the health tests of each specific breed that the parents are, I also would not pay stupid money for one but that is your choice as it's your money lol.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colsy said:


> Cockapoo breeders can be found on the big wide web.
> I am sure they would be more than happy to discuss all the testing they do.
> I know if you look you will find many great ones out there.
> I know a few good ones who do all the health tests etc.





Dundee said:


> The figures I got are not from the KC database, but the BVA's. And while they may be last years, the trend can be seen. No cockerpoo's have been recorded as being hip scored which means that the number that have been scored is between 0 and 10.


Colsey i know you know cockerpoo breeders who do all the health tests, but i honestly have trawled the net and still cant find one that hip scores so where can people wanting one find an ethical breeder then


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> What do the smiley face mean at the end please? Because I for one find none of this funny! It is a serious debate and should be taken as such!
> DT


Well, as it is : out : - I assumed it implied I was either 'out of my mind' or 'out with the fairies' or something along those lines. Not quite what I would expect from a mod, however...


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Double trouble said:


> What do the smiley face mean at the end please? Because I for one find none of this funny! It is a serious debate and should be taken as such!
> DT


It would be serious if it wasn't the same people making the same "expert" arguments everytime. One infers "crossbreed people don't test the parents".... not true... then another says "testing the parents is no guarantee" etc etc

There is no breed standard because they are a crossbreed; to state there would be a breed standard is a bit of a daft statement.. I think the smiley means "that was a bit daft".. ?


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Well, as it is : out : - I assumed it implied I was either 'out of my mind' or 'out with the fairies' or something along those lines. Not quite what I would expect from a mod, however...


My thoughts exactly! deliberate act of provacation strings to mind! Or in internet language do they call it flaming!


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

I might well be a Mod but what gives you all the right to put people off getting the type of dog they would like!
You all really need to take a look at what you are doing to this forum and how you are affecting the owner's of crossbreed dog's.
I do believe there are some rules on this forum,perhaps you should go back and make yourselves familar with them.
All dog's should be health tested in my eyes but its does not hold any guarntees.
Thank you.


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## oldDoubletrouble (Sep 21, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> It would be serious if it wasn't the same people making the same "expert" arguments everytime. One infers "crossbreed people don't test the parents".... not true... then another says "testing the parents is no guarantee" etc etc
> 
> There is no breed standard because they are a crossbreed; to state there would be a breed standard is a bit of a daft statement.. I think the smiley means "that was a bit daft".. ?


Yet again you have failed to grasp what a responsible breeder strives for, It is not just the Sire & Dams health that is taken into consideration when planning a litter! Many breeders go back generation after generation after generation!
I am walking away from this now because I find it all rather pathetic!

To the OP all the best in your search for your dog
regards
DT


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Elmo the bear said:


> There is no breed standard because they are a crossbreed; to state there would be a breed standard is a bit of a daft statement.. I think the smiley means "that was a bit daft".. ?


The Cockapoo Club of America estab. 1999. has a breed standard for Cockapoos so it is hardly a daft question.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Double trouble said:


> Yet again you have failed to grasp what a responsible breeder strives for, It is not just the Sire & Dams health that is taken into consideration when planning a litter! Many breeders go back generation after generation after generation!
> I am walking away from this now because I find it all rather pathetic!
> 
> To the OP all the best in your search for your dog
> ...


Bye


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

lauren001 said:


> The Cockapoo Club of America estab. 1999. has a breed standard for Cockapoos so it is hardly a daft question.


But you lot don't recognise them as a breed so why is (a US) club suddenly of interest. Surely any self regulated club has no credible standards anyway. They simply make up what they want according to the "members" of the a club (influenced by the breeders.. just in case anyone wants to infer I don't understand who are member of the KC and who are not)


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colsy said:


> I might well be a Mod but what gives you all the right to put people off getting the type of dog they would like!
> You all really need to take a look at what you are doing to this forum and how you are affecting the owner's of crossbreed dog's.
> I do believe there are some rules on this forum,perhaps you should go back and make yourselves familar with them.
> All dog's should be health tested in my eyes but its does not hold any guarntees.
> Thank you.


do you know many ethical breeders of cockerpoos who do all the health tests including hip scoring Colsey?


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

> But you lot don't recognise them as a breed so why is (a US) club suddenly of interest. Surely any self regulated club has no credible standards anyway. They simply make up what they want according to the "members" of the a club (influenced by the breeders.. just in case anyone wants to infer I don't understand who are member of the KC and who are not)


I think many of "us lot", would actually take cross breeding and certain "breeds" more seriously if there was some regulation, involving an independent club breed standard even if it wasn't recognised fully. Any standard as in the American one which involves health testing and the clarification and confirmation of pedigrees has got to be a good thing. 
The way it is, it is chaos and a free for all.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I might well be a Mod but what gives you all the right to put people off getting the type of dog they would like!


If they are put off it should be because the dog does not meet their needs. If you are going to make a judgement as to whether a dog meets your needs, you need to look at it's characteristics and traits, not easy with a cross breed that doesn't have a breed standard as it is a lottery as to what the traits the puppy will have.

The original poster said



> I suppose it is close between a cocker spaniel and a cockapoo but she liked the idea of a non shedding about that size.


He stated that his wife liked the idea of a non-shedding dog about that size. If that was of importance a cockerpoo would be a risky prospect as they could shed, so, although I haven't said anything to deliberately put them off, it is only right that they have the correct information before making the decision. If they do want a non shedding dog, then I think it would actually be correct to put them off getting a poodle cross.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

another thread that has turned out the same! im sure people want to know the pros and the cons of owning ANY breed or cross breed..and people have EVERY right to let tell them know what they are! just the same as i would be to some one intrested in cresteds! Infact i would tell them the bad before the good! dont you think its only fair the OP is told now the cons of owning this cross (in this situation it is a cross would be the same for a pedigree)..Instead of rushing out buying the dog and then having to rehome in months to come because its not everything they thought! as a dog loving forum we should all be able to sit together and tell people that are new to owning dogs or a said breed and tell them all the good but also tell them the down sides of owning a dog! 
I know it gets to people that own crosses but dont let it! you own the cross breeds so you should be telling people intrested more about the down and up sides of owning them! not getting all upset because a cross breed close to your heart is being talked about in a way you dont like.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> do you know many ethical breeders of cockerpoos who do all the health tests including hip scoring Colsey?


It's Colsy (but you know that) and I believe the question was answered earlier. Cockerpoos are a cross so the testing would be with the breeders of the Cocker / Poodle. If someone wishes to cross then they are reliant on those breeders giving truthful information.

I can find nothing with the Cocker Spaniel breed standard (new or old) that requires health testing (although there are recommendations); the same can be said for the Poodle breed standard so these appear to be left to the discretion of the breeder.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> I know it gets to people that own crosses but dont let it! you own the cross breeds so you should be telling people intrested more about the down and up sides of owning them! not getting all upset because a cross breed close to your heart is being talked about in a way you dont like.


I agree 100% and it isn't the viewpoints that give me a problem, it is the "yes but you're not an expert like me so your opinion is worthless" bit that I get annoyed about. The OP will think "blimey, these people breed dogs under regulations and breed standards so I better get one of them as it gives me peace of mind" which it does nothing of the sort.

KC breeders (won't use members again.. sorry) are not regulated at all, the breed "standard" is an aesthetic wish list and nothing more... if it had enforced health testing etc then I would be more supportive but your KC dog or your crossbreed (from two KC breed dogs remember) have as much chance of being healthy or not.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> ..... as a dog loving forum we should all be able to sit together and tell people that are new to owning dogs or a said breed and tell them all the good but also tell them the down sides of owning a dog!
> I know it gets to people that own crosses but dont let it! you own the cross breeds so you should be telling people intrested more about the down and up sides of owning them! not getting all upset because a cross breed close to your heart is being talked about in a way you dont like.


This is an intelligent take on this subject. It is facts that matter not whether non-shedding Coochy Coo is the best thing since sliced bread. 
If Coochy Coo's brother is a shedding nightmare and has ended up in rescue because of it, then that cannot be good.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I agree 100% and it isn't the viewpoints that give me a problem, it is the "yes but you're not an expert like me so your opinion is worthless" bit that I get annoyed about. The OP will think "blimey, these people breed dogs under regulations and breed standards so I better get one of them as it gives me peace of mind" which it does nothing of the sort.
> 
> KC breeders (won't use members again.. sorry) are not regulated at all, the breed "standard" is an aesthetic wish list and nothing more... if it had enforced health testing etc then I would be more supportive but your KC dog or your crossbreed (from two KC breed dogs remember) have as much chance of being healthy or not.


Hang on a min why bring me into this and my breed! i put a post that was not directed at you!  I have also never said that there un-healthy  you seem to add your own words to fit what you want to reply.

"yes but you're not an expert like me so your opinion is worthless"
Funny how you should say that because i along with other members was told we shouldnt answer threads like this as we dont own the breed! 

I have also never said that KC dogs dont suffer from problem! thats more words your adding.

This whole post you have done has NOTHING to do with what you quoted of mine..


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colsy said:


> It's Colsy (but you know that) and I believe the question was answered earlier. Cockerpoos are a cross so the testing would be with the breeders of the Cocker / Poodle. If someone wishes to cross then they are reliant on those breeders giving truthful information.
> 
> I can find nothing with the Cocker Spaniel breed standard (new or old) that requires health testing (although there are recommendations); the same can be said for the Poodle breed standard so these appear to be left to the discretion of the breeder.


im very sorry the mis-spelling of your name was a genuine mistake:blushing:

as you know cockerpoo breeders who do all the health tests, what exactly do the test for then?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

DevilDogz said:


> Hang on a min why bring me into this and my breed! i put a post that was not directed at you!  I have also never said that there un-healthy  you seem to add your own words to fit what you want to reply.
> 
> "yes but you're not an expert like me so your opinion is worthless"
> Funny how you should say that because i along with other members was told we shouldnt answer threads like this as we dont own the breed!
> ...


I didn't "bring you into it" I agreed with you... have another go at reading my post instead of taking it out of context. The parts you think are aimed at you (heaven knows why as I do not say that) are aimed at earlier opinions of other posters.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I didn't "bring you into it" I agreed with you... have another go at reading my post instead of taking it out of context. The parts you think are aimed at you (heaven knows why as I do not say that) are aimed at earlier opinions of other posters.


Ahh well i read it as you had! sorry if you hadnt! just didnt understand why you has said all that to the bit you quoted!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Double trouble said:


> I understood that the percentage was actaully lower then that! if it were a first cross and that the mother were the spanial! But feel free to correct me as I am only going on the back of the words of someone who has done it.
> In this case The dam being the Cocker, the Sire the Poodle.


I am sorry, but this really is not right. Why on earth should the mother's genes over ride the fathers. This is reminiscent of some idiot that brought his GSD bitch in to the vets I worked for (years ago) to xray it for HD. It's hips were awful but suddenly it didnt matter as the bitch cant pass on HD!


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I really do wonder if it is worth coming on this forum when there is so much bigoted opinion - how can anyone actually have confidence in any advice.

Has it occurred to anyone that a lurcher is the original designer dog. They are not even a straight cross or a cross between 2 specific breeds and yet they command very high prices if their breeding is what is wanted and I have yet to hear of any lurcher breeders that do any health testing. Though I am sure at least one person will put me right on that one.

I see there is actually a thread with someone asking advice about getting a lurcher - and do you know something, there isnt one single post suggesting that she must find a reputable breeder or make sure the parents are health tested. 
What is it with poodle crosses that annoys some people so much.


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## kendal (Mar 24, 2009)

down side to the cockapoo. 


there is allot of work with there coats, and because like has been said before there is no breed standard its hard to find a groomer that will cut them in a way that you are completely happy with. lots of first time cockapoo owners i have spoken to has been horrified after there dogs first hair cut. 




my lot are barkers in the garden but i think thats more to do with the fact i have never been consistent in teaching them not to. 




they are mud magnets the more rank and festering the better (but that might just be an all dogs)



the beard causes them to dribble water every where when they drink. but that goes for lots of other breeds too. 


i need to pluck the hair out of Gypsy's ears but not the other too. 


my lot can sometimes have a bit of separation anxiety. 


no one in my family has a dog allergy, but i have herd from someone who has two from the same breeder and he son only had a reaction to the second one, but it think as the dog has grown its coat has changed and the boy isn't having a reaction anymore. 


my lot haven't need any real vet treatment other than Inca swallowing a dummy teat and needing it removed from her intestines. other than that the was wasp stings but thats not breed specific. 

they are sometimes to smart for their own good. and Inca was a nightmare to teach recall too as she loves birds and cats. 


Gypsy is like a wee old woman and likes her own space so doesn't play with other dogs apart from our lot. 


i was told my lot would be mental because of the particular cross but they tend to like to sleep allot.


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## Ducky (Nov 23, 2008)

Blitz said:


> I really do wonder if it is worth coming on this forum when there is so much bigoted opinion - how can anyone actually have confidence in any advice.


agree with you there. i actually think this is getting completely ridiculous. 
just another thread that has turned into a slanging match (though not quite to the same degree that others of recent times have).
i am not one to usually speak up about such things, as i really cant be bothered with all the drama. but it really is getting stupid now.

good luck in finding your dog delta, whatever dog you choose will be wonderful


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I really do wonder if it is worth coming on this forum when there is so much bigoted opinion


What is bigoted about the opinions given?



> Has it occurred to anyone that a lurcher is the original designer dog


.

Lurchers are not designer dogs - not all cross breeds could be described as designer dogs. Some, like lurchers were crossed because they produced traits desirable in a working dog, some are crosses through accidental matings. Designer dogs tend to apply to those that are bred commercially on a large scale as pets to fulfill a current fashion or trend and without any purpose or aim.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> if i were you what ever you decide just make sure breeding stock have been health screened....poodles should be eye tested and have DNA test for PRA, cockers should have eye test including gonioscopy, DNA test for PRA plus hip scoring





noushka05 said:


> is it difficult to find a cockerpoo breeder who does all the relevant heath tests for both the breeds in the cross?





noushka05 said:


> & i agree a dogs a dog but i think whether pedigree or crossbreed all dogs used for breeding should be health tested & i thought as you had a cockerpoo you might know of some reputable breeders?





noushka05 said:


> its not for myself but the op but ive had a little google but cant find many just a couple that do eye test but without a gonioscopy and no hip score, maybe you can help the op find a breeder then that does all the tests





Blitz said:


> I really do wonder if it is worth coming on this forum when there is so much bigoted opinion - how can anyone actually have confidence in any advice.
> 
> and do you know something, there isnt one single post suggesting that she must find a reputable breeder or make sure the parents are health tested.
> What is it with poodle crosses that annoys some people so much.


well ive suggested it & tried to ask those who might know where the ethical breeders can be found!


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## ad_1980 (Jan 28, 2009)

Ducky said:


> agree with you there. i actually think this is getting completely ridiculous.
> just another thread that has turned into a slanging match (though not quite to the same degree that others of recent times have).
> i am not one to usually speak up about such things, as i really cant be bothered with all the drama. but it really is getting stupid now.
> 
> good luck in finding your dog delta, whatever dog you choose will be wonderful


totally agree. the OP was just asking about cockerpoos and if anyone had any suggestions about any other breeds. He didn't ask for a debate!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

ad_1980 said:


> totally agree. the OP was just asking about cockerpoos and if anyone had any suggestions about any other breeds. He didn't ask for a debate!


the op wants a dog which has had all the relevant health tests and fully heath tested cockerpoos are very hard to find on the net


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

I think the OP is now fully aware of the ups and downs of the cockerpoo, he has also been given suggestions as he requested of other breeds that may meet his wifes criteria, and I personally think that those of us who posted made their point either negative or positive, and it shouldnt ever get personal when posting on threads,

Mo


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## manicmania (Sep 25, 2009)

Cockerpoo's are just like any other breed of dog imo. What you end up with depends on the breeder eg unsocialised puppies, breeding bad tempered parents, breeding poor looking dogs and of course the big one unhealth tested parents all adds up to what you get as an end result.
OP I will give you some facts from myself that I know are true
3 people at the obedience training I help out at have 2 cockerpoo's and 1 labradoodle. Now what I found amazing was that not one of these owners knew, thought about or even asked re health tests when they bought their puppy.
I also found it unbelievable that the labradoodle owner has a piece of paper with what I can only describe are made up names on 2 generations and then the rest just states poodle/ labrador??? strange imo. Now what gets me is this person with the made up papers is intending on breeding her bitch next season and I must say she is asking the trainer re health tests but imo how will this matter when they do not even know what is behind their dog??

Now I have read this full thread and I think whatever you buy be very wary as there may be a lot more of the above example breeder out there.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

We had two in our training class also, not my training class you understand, and not one that I attend either, there is just one very close to us where I visit sometimes (Like to keep my hand in) one owner stopped coming so do not know the outcome there, but he was a bit of a handful and had had what I think they termed 'growing pains' the other though is/was a stunning boy, headstrong it seemed, but they were working wonders with, will maybe have a wander down there this week see how things are going, as I did note that one of these dogs was competeing in the agility with his rather exuberant owner, not a good idea for a dog of such tender years.
Sorry to have rambled peeps, just guess I am glad to be home.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Dundee said:


> If they are put off it should be because the dog does not meet their needs. If you are going to make a judgement as to whether a dog meets your needs, you need to look at it's characteristics and traits, not easy with a cross breed that doesn't have a breed standard as it is a lottery as to what the traits the puppy will have.
> 
> The original poster said
> 
> He stated that his wife liked the idea of a non-shedding dog about that size. If that was of importance a cockerpoo would be a risky prospect as they could shed, so, although I haven't said anything to deliberately put them off, it is only right that they have the correct information before making the decision. If they do want a non shedding dog, then I think it would actually be correct to put them off getting a poodle cross.


I cant see anything wrong with either of these posts, i think its very naieve to think someone would be put off. . . . . make them think maybe and thats good because after all they came on here for advice and thats what they got.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> So all Labradoodles that have been hip scored are recorded on the KC database are they?
> 
> I'm not sure how Labradoodles came into this thread (although I have an idea). A Cockerpoo is a cross so the scores that matter are the cocker and the poodle.


*All* dogs in UK which are hip scored are automatically entered onto the KC database via the BVA, owners have no say in this, the BVA panel record the sccores and the results are in triplicate, BVA database copy, KC database copy, and a copy to the vet who sent in the plates, no owner can request that the results are not thus recorded, therefore the numbers of breeds and crosses tested and the Mean Scores published are accurate. 
HTH :smilewinkgrin:


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> i find this quite offensive i have to say....


I find deliberate crossbreeders - and unethical purebred breeders - offensive.



> it is tarring a category or very knowledgeable breeders that decided that the CON of the various national KC is detrimental to the dogs and good only to fuelling the pockets of those living around the rings and their sponsors...


I don`t give a hoot about the KC, I am opposed to them on many ethical and welfare points, but anyone using that as an excuse to turn out `designer` crosses is trying to justify swelling the numbers of dogs for which there are no homes and are conning people when they claim health/temperament/look/size etc etc will be specific, it will not and can not be predicted when crossing is involved. A hips score on both parents of a crossing is a misnomer, the different skeletal build of each breed being thrown together rules out any potentials from hip score within each parents own breed.



> i left that world 20 odd years ago when i saw the conditions of purebreeds in Italy...and when i moved to this country, i could see that in the UK (and then i learnt also in Japan) the conditions have reached indescribable proportions akin to cruelty to the whole species ...and obviously everybody states that they are purist and breed to better their breed of choice...from a genetic pool that is more like a muddy pond without variety...in the end is the dogs that suffer


There are horrendous breeders in all walks, all countries, and all with their excuses as to why they think it`s ok for them to churn out unhealthy purebreds and crossbreeds and/or dogs which will be of unknown quantity in behaviours/size/build/coat/.etc etc. That does`nt make it right to jump on the designer bandwagon, it`s not right *for the dogs*.



> i breed crosses and i do so following the strictest guidelines,


There are no *ethical* guidelines



> caring from the dogs from mating to whelping to re-homing...


And after that ? 
10 or more years down the line when an owner dies or has something happen whereby they can no longer keep the dog ? 
With the potential for having to take back *every* dog you have bred at any time during their lives ?

And as for the people crossbreeders bought their breeding stock from, presumably they put no endorsements on and don`t care about their lines being used to turn out crossbreeds, if their own stock were good enough in mentally and physically health quality and good examples of their own breed then no way would they advocate anyone cross OR pure-breeding from the dogs they sold therefore the dogs can not be of good breed quality, as is the case of all used in this way, no ethical breeder with true knowledge, experience and understanding of their breed would advocate it, KC registered or not.



> i have a lot to say in respect to so-called respectable/responsible pedigree breeders but i think we all know that...and if not i would invite people to check
> Population Structure and Inbreeding From Pedigree Analysis of Purebred Dogs -- Calboli et al. 179 (1): 593 -- Genetics
> and other similar proper scientific peer-reviewed literature to understand what they are doing...


Been there, read this that and the other, and have drawn conclusions based on facts and experience, not just picked out what suits to do something unethical and unnecessary.



> having said that, researching and talking to people and breeders is the way forward...


Absolutely



> observing the conditions where the pups have lived their first 8-14 weeks, observing the parents (the mother MUST always be with the pups...) etc will give you an idea of what you are dealing with...


In purebreds it will give an idea at least, but in crosses it will have no bearing due to the mixtures in various degrees of the applicable mental and physical traits, a crossbreed pup could end up as anything between the parent breeds.



> please do not INSULT excellent and hard working breeders, that work they heart off to produce outstanding dogs


I never insult *ethical* breeders



> only because they do not comply with the ridiculous circus that is the KC of Britain or of any other so called developed country that allow inbreeding and instead of weeding off genetic faults promote monsters conformed ill heath dogs able to go around the showring or chase a rabbit and they die young and in miserable ways.
> 
> best
> d


It`s not about the KC, goodness knows they allow dreadful situations within breeds to happen, however this is not about KC versus non-KC, it`s about the *dogs* and the morals and ethics - or lack of - of those who breed them.


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## dexter (Nov 29, 2008)

Delta said:


> Thanks for your comments, really appreciate them. I'm afraid the Bichon Frise would not really suit me as I'm 6'4 and I think I would give everyone a great laugh


lol .......................how's about a briard?


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Colsy said:


> I might well be a Mod but what gives you all the right to put people off getting the type of dog they would like!


I don`t think anyone is doing that - I`m all for people getting crossbreeds - from rescues :smilewinkgrin:



> You all really need to take a look at what you are doing to this forum and how you are affecting the owner's of crossbreed dog's.


I have two crosbreeds and have had others before them, as a crossbreed owner I can say it`s not affecting me, so that`s one less for you to be concerned for at least :smilewinkgrin:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Patch said:


> I don`t think anyone is doing that - I`m all for people getting crossbreeds - from rescues :smilewinkgrin:


so people should only get a dog from a rescue?


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

lauren001 said:


> The Cockapoo Club of America estab. 1999. has a breed standard for Cockapoos so it is hardly a daft question.


ANyone can write a `breed standard` - it doesn`t make it correct and in the case of crossbreeds it`s nonsensical, any pups falling within a `wished for` standard are the rarity, every pup in a crossbreed litter can look completely unrelated.

Here are two crossbreed examples - can you determine their parentage`s and say with confidence that each in the litter will have been alike in temperament and appearance ?

Dog one










Dog two


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Patch said:


> ANyone can write a `breed standard` - it doesn`t make it correct and in the case of crossbreeds it`s nonsensical, any pups falling within a `wished for` standard are the rarity, every pup in a crossbreed litter can look completely unrelated.
> 
> Here are two crossbreed examples - can you determine their parentage`s and say with confidence that each in the litter will have been alike in temperament and appearance ?


No... but you can't do it (honestly) for a KC breed either.... there will always be variation. But you are right on one point, anyone can write a breed standard.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

DevilDogz said:


> another thread that has turned out the same! im sure people want to know the pros and the cons of owning ANY breed or cross breed..and people have EVERY right to let tell them know what they are! just the same as i would be to some one intrested in cresteds! Infact i would tell them the bad before the good! dont you think its only fair the OP is told now the cons of owning this cross (in this situation it is a cross would be the same for a pedigree)..Instead of rushing out buying the dog and then having to rehome in months to come because its not everything they thought! as a dog loving forum we should all be able to sit together and tell people that are new to owning dogs or a said breed and tell them all the good but also tell them the down sides of owning a dog!
> I know it gets to people that own crosses but dont let it! you own the cross breeds so you should be telling people intrested more about the down and up sides of owning them! not getting all upset because a cross breed close to your heart is being talked about in a way you dont like.


Very well said :smilewinkgrin:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> No... but you can't do it (honestly) for a KC breed either.... there will always be variation.


but with breeds, you're more likely to get a similar look. of course there will be variation between any and every dog, but it's more in cross breeds, so it's harder to get a breed standard.


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## Zayna (Apr 19, 2009)

I would just like to say that my parents used to own a cocker spaniel and she was the most delightful little dog you could ever imagine. As good as gold. I always said to my OH if we ever get a dog in the future thats what im going for


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> but with breeds, you're more likely to get a similar look. of course there will be variation between any and every dog, but it's more in cross breeds, so it's harder to get a breed standard.


Simlar yes. I have two retriever poodle crosses, different litters, both look similar... more similar than these do anyway.... (love these dogs BTW)


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Simlar yes. I have two retriever poodle crosses, different litters, both look similar... more similar than these do anyway.... (love these dogs BTW)


i think you are looking at colouring. those dogs look to be around the breed standard. obviously some don't make the grade as they don't match the breed standard.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Simlar yes. I have two retriever poodle crosses, different litters, both look similar... more similar than these do anyway.... (love these dogs BTW)


im no expert but the last two english setters look very poor examples of the breed.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Has it occurred to anyone that a lurcher is the original designer dog.


Designed with a working purpose - one that i`m against because I`m anti hunting but that`s by the by, theyr were `invented` as a type hundreds of years ago for working, not for aesthetics or for human whimsy, the reasons for their being bred back then is very different to now, [ or should be in UK at least as hunting with dogs is banned ], and humans should have evolved somewhat in reasoning over the last several hundred years. Then it was necessity to have dogs capable of hunting down various types of animals for food, this is not a necessity in this day and age.



> They are not even a straight cross or a cross between 2 specific breeds and yet they command very high prices if their breeding is what is wanted


The differences being to attempt to breed dogs capable of taking down varying types and sizes of quarry. A dog bred to take down a deer would be of very different construction to one designed to get rabbits [ for instance ]. Rightly or wrongly [ as in whether people are for or against hunting ], there was reasoning behind the different mixes used in Lurchers in order to perform the job required.



> and I have yet to hear of any lurcher breeders that do any health testing. Though I am sure at least one person will put me right on that one.


I don`t personally know of any who definitely do, [ don`t know every breeder in the world so would be impossible to say that none actually do ], though I know of one who claims to, [ but has never produced evidence of it ], and it would be irrelevant anyway where different physically constructed breeds were put together, on the skeletal/joint testing side anyway.



> I see there is actually a thread with someone asking advice about getting a lurcher - and do you know something, there isnt one single post suggesting that she must find a reputable breeder or make sure the parents are health tested.


Is`nt the one in question a rescue dog ? [ unless I misunderstood on the thread which is entirely possible ].



> What is it with poodle crosses that annoys some people so much.


Where to start...
The originators of the idea were aiming for specific temperament and coat aspects, they found it an impossible aim, as a result they stopped breeding them, but others jumped on the bandwagon and perpetuate the myths as though the aims were achieved by the originators. It has led to the designer tag bandwagon in all manner of other deliberate crosses with joined up names, and has caused many with accidental matings to jump in as well by adding a designer tag and a high price for what would otherwise have simply been labelled an accidental litter of crossbreeds `free to good home` or straight into rescue or worse, and n finding they can easily get that silly money from their accidental litter they often go on to just churn them out on purpose. The Lab x Poodle `initiative` - which the originators themselves admit completely failed - has led to wide ranging implications for the dog world ever since.


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> so people should only get a dog from a rescue?


In a perfect world anyone not planning on Showing would at least consider a rescue dog, there are Breed rescue`s and general rescues, any of which might have a persons ideal companion waiting for a wonderful home, but if people do want to go to a breeder for a purebred they need to research research research to find the ethical breeders, those breeders are the one`s not causing horrendous numbers of unwanted dogs in rescues, [ ethical breeders take back dogs they have bred at any time of that dogs life ].

Ethical breeders have waiting lists *prior* to breeding so anyone wanting a dog from them should be prepared for a [ worth while ] wait.

As I don`t personally believe there is such a thing as an ethical designer crossbreeder then yes if wanting a crossbreed I would urge people to go to a rescue every time :smilewinkgrin:


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> I think you missed the point of my post. I was referring to the posts that suggested the OP trawl the net to find a cockerpoo etc.
> 
> I totally agree with pretty much everything you say
> If you check back to my original posts on the thread you will see the advice i give to the OP is along those lines
> ...


My apologies for any misunderstanding caused by my response to you, I was looking at the angle that both `sides` were responding, as is only right, hopefully the OP will be able to draw conclusions from the content, quality of information [ either way ], and manner in which any points have been made whether for or against the OPs considerations for a potential life companion :smilewinkgrin:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Patch said:


> In a perfect world anyone not planning on Showing would at least consider a rescue dog, there are Breed rescue`s and general rescues, any of which might have a persons ideal companion waiting for a wonderful home, but if people do want to go to a breeder for a purebred they need to research research research to find the ethical breeders, those breeders are the one`s not causing horrendous numbers of unwanted dogs in rescues, [ ethical breeders take back dogs they have bred at any time of that dogs life ].
> 
> Ethical breeders have waiting lists *prior* to breeding so anyone wanting a dog from them should be prepared for a [ worth while ] wait.
> 
> As I don`t personally believe there is such a thing as an ethical designer crossbreeder then yes if wanting a crossbreed I would urge people to go to a rescue every time :smilewinkgrin:


Sorry to appear ignorant but can you explain to me the ethical purpose of "showing".


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry to appear ignorant but can you explain to me the ethical purpose of "showing".


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Just read through this thread...

I however have less of a problem with people who produce crossbreeds from health tested parents and fit within all my criteria for an responsible breeder....

I do own a crossbreed the result of an accidental mating from healtested parents.. i wont go into the full story unless requested its boring for most of you who have read it before.

I take on patches point about there being very few ethical breeders of crossbreeds, and for the most part i agree, however i do think its possible for a breeder to conform to all the criteria i would want in a responsible breeder and still be producing crossbreeds.

However I do agree that throwing two breeds together produces more unknowns than it does knowns. Both health and temperament wise. And there are some very very ODD mixes out there, some of them dangerous to the dogs health and welfare imho.


My BIGGEST objection to the majority of crossbreed breeders is that they are simply doing it for money... i have the same objection to any breeder pedigree or otherwise who does this... they are all back yard puppy farms in these cases and they all want wiping out.

The ONLY way to do so is by education...

The general public need educating about how to recognise a responsible breeder, the consequenses of not doing so and the rights they have for legal action should they find themselves conned.

As to the point made about trying to put someone off a certain breed or type for want of a better word that also includes any crossbreed or mongrel. Then HALLELUJA! I think sometimes there are some breeds and crosses that are totally unsuitable for some people. 

We have all read the threads by emilyp (amongst many others) giving advice on which breeds should be suitable for their family circumstances - this was about purebreeds not crossbreeds. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander as they say. Its not just ok to advise on pedigrees it should be ok to advise on the crosses too - this forum has a wealth of knowledge and we should be able to share it no matter what type of dog its referring to.

We have all seen adverts for some badly bred pedigrees and some badly bred crosses and we have ALL been horrified and angered by them - this is GOOD! The angrier we get and the more we shout then the more people will hear us! 

I remember a thread recently about a very very odd mis of dogs - shar pei and bassett hounds. That thread lead to the removal of advertising puppies on the classified pages, because it was clear that these pups had not been produced with any forethought to the health of the pups. Two breeds with enough abominable health problems without throwing them together. 

Thats right... i think that there are enough health problems in some breeds that need addressing before even thinking about producing crossbreeds from them.

Now ive said my piece, if youve managed to read it all well done! :wink5:


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


>


and that means what? The poster was saying that crossbreeding is not ethical but breeding for showing is. I was simply asking why.

Quote

""In a perfect world anyone not planning on Showing would at least consider a rescue dog,""


----------



## nicola1980 (Oct 5, 2008)

Patch said:


> Ethical breeders have waiting lists *prior* to breeding so anyone wanting a dog from them should be prepared for a [ worth while ] wait.
> 
> :


So what about the breeders of crossbreeds that have waiting lists prior to them breeding? who also do health tests and are always willing to take a dog back ensuring it will not go to the rescue if it should ever need a new home?
Surely then they are more responsible than the pedigree breeder that just breeds without health tests, waiting lists and will not take a dog back if something should happen?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> and that means what? The poster was saying that crossbreeding is not ethical but breeding for showing is. I was simply asking why.
> 
> Quote
> 
> ""In a perfect world anyone not planning on Showing would at least consider a rescue dog,""


thats not the way i understood patch's post, i thought it merely meant what it said ie..if you dont want a dog to show why not get a rescue!

oh and what exactly is unethical about showing anyway????


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

How about "if your breed serves no actual purpose other than being a companion" ... why not consider a rescue?

I consider companion to be a very worthy purpose BTW


... what exactly is ethical about showing?


"moral, upright, honest, righteous, virtuous, honorable."


don't see..."something I like doing" in there.


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry to appear ignorant but can you explain to me the ethical purpose of "showing".


I know you didnt ask me...

The reason dog shows started is simple, they became a natural progression of field and hunting trials... People wanted to show that they had the best dog of that type and so dog shows were born.

Most people who owned working dogs kept their own records and information on lines whether mentally or written.. eventually it became apparent that a national registry was needed and so the kennel club was born. Registration then progressed to the stud books and then onto the blueprints of each breed as some were so similar that a bluprint was needed to differentiate from the breeds and their purposes and to give people the "standards of points".

The reason shows were done were the same reasons sheepdog trials, gundog trials etc were done.. to show you had the best dog of its type...

One side went down the working lines... the others went down the showing lines...

Now as to why i think this is ethical... well it isnt always..

Any dog who enters a show should be fit, healthy and able to perform the duty is has been bred for, it should also look like and fit to the standard of points. This is ethical showing...

Now i do agree that judges and the breeders have taken things to the extreem and some serious serious changes need to be implemented, as some breeds are now unable to perform the jobs they once were. They are unhealthy, and as such imho shouuld be autmatically disquallified. A big change needs to take place in the attitudes of the judges and the breeders who "breed" to what the judges interpret the points to be for those breeds.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> I know you didnt ask me...
> 
> The reason dog shows started is simple, they became a natural progression of field and hunting trials... People wanted to show that they had the best dog of that type and so dog shows were born.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I agree that there can be "ethical showing" but this describes the method as opposed to the purpose. I was making the point that the showing itself has no ethics behind it, it is simply something that some people like doing.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> How about "if your breed serves no actual purpose other than being a companion" ... why not consider a rescue?
> 
> I consider companion to be a very worthy purpose BTW
> 
> ...


i only said what i thought the poster meant!

well ive been to lots of shows and not seen anything unethical so maybe you can enlighten me

and have no idea what the last part of your post means! LMFAO!


----------



## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i only said what i thought the poster meant!
> 
> well ive been to lots of shows and not seen anything unethical so maybe you can enlighten me
> 
> and have no idea what the last part of your post means! LMFAO!


i have been to shows and i have seen the unethical part


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> i have been to shows and i have seen the unethical part


 really, i havent, tell me more!


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik said:


> i have been to shows and i have seen the unethical part


Yep we were at one like that yesterday


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

The poster implied that showing itself had some ethics. As in :

Possible ethical reason = 
"the purpose of this dog show is to ensure that the dogs we breed who perform necessary task x are being bred correctly"

Unethical reason = 
"the purpose of this dog show is for the breeders to sell lots of pups and make loads of money."

Real reason for showing =
"the purpose of this dog show is to see whose dog best conforms to a breed standard we have written and because we enjoy it"


So I wasn't saying that showing was unethical, simply that it had no ethical reasons behind it. The poster, however, inferred that dog shows (and therefore the breeding for dog shows) had some ethical basis (a moral purpose) which of course they don't.


So my point was that the purpose of dog shows is to entertain humans.. only.. that is not an ethical purpose.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> really, i havent, tell me more!


nasty dogs in the ring, dogs with bad temperaments winning, dogs which arent the best of examples of the breed winning over better examples in the ring, then we all know that health tests are not required to enter in champshows so there is a percentege of sick dogs in the ring for sure etc etc etc i could go on


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

tashi said:


> Yep we were at one like that yesterday


what happened???


----------



## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Simlar yes. I have two retriever poodle crosses, different litters, both look similar... more similar than these do anyway.... (love these dogs BTW)


Nice looking dog's. Does any one want a cup of tea and some cake


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik said:


> what happened???


all the judging was 'done' before we even stepped in the ring apparently we were told the winners all the way through all sorted in the bar the night before


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Ahh sorry elmo i misunderstood.

Can i ask everyone (sorry if this is a mini hijac) if they would have a problem with a crossbreed being produced if it was done so for a specific task?

For example 

a scent hound with toy breed for use in mine fields at times of war? To detect mines but be too small and light to set them off...

a sight hound/scent hound/mountain breed mix for a more efficient search and rescue dog...


these are just examples off the top of my head...

I understand we have literally hundreds (if not thousands) of breeds at our disposal, but if one was not supreemly suited to the new modern tasks that humanity has then i really really would not have a problem with someone responsibly and selectively creating one. Providing as usual that the same breeding principles applied that i would like every single breeder to adhere to.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> Nice looking dog's. Does any one want a cup of tea and some cake


Cake would be lovely mmm can i have chocolate please


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> The poster implied that showing itself had some ethics. As in :
> 
> Possible ethical reason =
> "the purpose of this dog show is to ensure that the dogs we breed who perform necessary task x are being bred correctly"
> ...


ok i see what youre meaning now, i have to disagree that shows are 'just' to entertain humans tho, although obviously they wouldnt go if they didnt enjoy it, but they do serve a purpose i have learnt so much about my breed through going to shows, i could never have learnt it from a book, ive learnt about important things like conformation, i no my dogs faults & strengths so i believe showing does serve an ethical purpose.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

tashi said:


> all the judging was 'done' before we even stepped in the ring apparently we were told the winners all the way through all sorted in the bar the night before


awhh... thats nasty  i hope it didnt ruin ur day


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

Natik said:


> awhh... thats nasty  i hope it didnt ruin ur day


No lol had a cracking day over in Belfast last weekend so you take the rough with the smooth in showing


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Ahh sorry elmo i misunderstood.
> 
> Can i ask everyone (sorry if this is a mini hijac) if they would have a problem with a crossbreed being produced if it was done so for a specific task?
> 
> ...


Which is all very amusing until you consider that the maintenance of breeds whose "uses" have long since past is classed as having some moral purpose... whereas responsible crossbreeding is the work of the devil:devil:

I've not tried to put any moral justification behind my choice of dog, I choose them because I like them.. I just wish others were so honest as opposed to trying to kid everyone that their choice of dog is some kind of ethical statement that us mere mortals cannot aspire to....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

tashi said:


> No lol had a cracking day over in Belfast last weekend so you take the rough with the smooth in showing


good to hear that :thumbup:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> ok i see what youre meaning now, i have to disagree that shows are 'just' to entertain humans tho, although obviously they wouldnt go if they didnt enjoy it, but they do serve a purpose i have learnt so much about my breed through going to shows, i could never have learnt it from a book, ive learnt about important things like conformation, i no my dogs faults & strengths so i believe showing does serve an ethical purpose.


But you knowing more about your breed is for your enjoyment... a very worthy reason but not an ethical one.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I have to admit I have met Elmo and Honey B and loads of others like them and boy are they of the soundest temperament you could wish to meet, the two pups sat on top of Elmo and he just looked at them as if to say 'Comfortable' pmsl and yes I do like NOW


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> nasty dogs in the ring, dogs with bad temperaments winning, dogs which arent the best of examples of the breed winning over better examples in the ring, then we all know that health tests are not required to enter in champshows so there is a percentege of sick dogs in the ring for sure etc etc etc i could go on


yes you do get all that im afraid, but not all judges are like that, & i can only really speak for my own breed and say that most of the people that i know who show are ethical & passionate about the breed, dogs shouldnt have to be health tested to be shown tho, my bitch who has done well at shows isnt tested and thats because i have no intention to breed her, if i was than of course i'd get her done, (but shes certainly not sick), & many in the ring arnt tested because of this reason,



Badger's Mum said:


> Nice looking dog's. Does any one want a cup of tea and some cake


me please! milk no sugar! pmsl


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

This is just after that very incident... you can see how hyper he is..


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Which is all very amusing until you consider that the maintenance of breeds whose "uses" have long since past is classed as having some moral purpose... whereas responsible crossbreeding is the work of the devil:devil:
> 
> I've not tried to put any moral justification behind my choice of dog, I choose them because I like them.. I just wish others were so honest as opposed to trying to kid everyone that their choice of dog is some kind of ethical statement that us mere mortals cannot aspire to....


Hmmm not sure i'm with you on that one!

My chinese crested today caught himself a squirrel!!! , so he is eminently capable of doing his "job"... ok so i dont work him, and he is a rescue and not the best example of the breed... but he is still capable of doing the job he was bred for, should i have a desire to work him!

I grew up with chihuahuas, and they too were very capable mousers, living in the countryside they would regularly get wood mice, voles, shrews, harvest mice etc. They were capable of their jobs even though they were totally and utterly "companion lap dogs". Chihuahuas are considered the ultimate companion dog... so still being able to work is fan bloody tastic! There are various theories for the breed purpose of chihuahuas from peoples small ratters, vermin controll, aztec temple dogs worshipped and used for vermin controll...

The point i am making is that most breeds (but sadly and terribly not all) are still capable of doing the job they were destined for.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But you knowing more about your breed is for your enjoyment... a very worthy reason but not an ethical one.


well i actually think it is an ethical reason because i bred my bitch, & because i knew her strengths & weaknesses i had i better idea what stud would compliment her.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> Hmmm not sure i'm with you on that one!
> 
> My chinese crested today caught himself a squirrel!!! , so he is eminently capable of doing his "job"... ok so i dont work him, and he is a rescue and not the best example of the breed... but he is still capable of doing the job he was bred for, should i have a desire to work him!
> 
> ...


Which is fantastic and long may they continue to do so... but they don't need to, so their "purpose" is no different to any other dog... to be a companion?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

I've just told Elmo he has no ethical purpose... he's cancelling his sponsored cycle ride in aid of the Blue Cross as we speak.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> well i actually think it is an ethical reason because i bred my bitch, & because i know her strengths & weaknesses i had i better idea what stud would compliment her.


OK.. last crack at this. But, as worthy and fantastic as it may be, breeding your bitch does not have an ethical purpose, you are doing it because you want to.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> yes you do get all that im afraid, but not all judges are like that, & i can only really speak for my own breed and say that most of the people that i know who show are ethical & passionate about the breed, dogs shouldnt have to be health tested to be shown tho, my bitch who has done well at shows isnt tested and thats because i have no intention to breed her if i was than of course i'd get her done & many in the ring arnt tested because of this reason
> 
> me please! milk no sugar! pmsl


U say most, that means there are those who arent ethical and im sure u dont know all sibe breeders and showers in the whole uk 

i didnt say they have to be tested (i believe there should be seperate breeding and pet groups though where breeding dogs after a certain age would have to be tested before entering), i just wanted to point out that sick dogs are winning and to me breed standard includes health... a blind lab (getting blind in the future obviously) for instance is not the best of example of the breed and is not deserving of a rosette. but thats my opinion....

showing is there to find the best example of the breed and an ill dog is not a good example ... even though the illness isnt present on the day of the show doesnt mean its not there lurking inside ready for breaking out in the future....


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

tashi said:


> I have to admit I have met Elmo and Honey B and loads of others like them and boy are they of the soundest temperament you could wish to meet, the two pups sat on top of Elmo and he just looked at them as if to say 'Comfortable' pmsl and yes I do like NOW


I dont think anyone questioned elmo or hunnyb's temperaments?

The point everyone is making is that an ethical and responsible breeder will conduct test matings on paper with all the knowledge of the history of the lines, their temperaments, their faults, their health problems etc etc etc... to get a good "idea" about how those pups turn out. Yes nurture plays a big part too, but nature is also important.

I'm sure a responsible breeder wouldnt dream of using a stud for your girls if you knew he carried a fatal gene for some of his offspring. Equally and just as importantly they wouldnt use him if there was a serious temperament issue in his line. If many of his previous offspring/ancestors/siblings/other relatives had questionable temperament no matter how nice the actual stud was ihe wouldnt be used. Now i realise there are no guarentees but the idea is to make it as "safe" as possible with as near to an assurance of temperament as is possible. This can only be done with all the information available for that breed.

This isnt possible to ascertain with crossbreeds because mixing the two breeds together is a misnoma and you are unable to say for certain what you will get. Even if both lines used of the individual breeds have excellent temperaments you cannot kid yourself into any sort of assurance that the pups will also have good temperaments because you have no idea what mixing the two breeds may throw.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

billyboysmammy said:


> I dont think anyone questioned elmo or hunnyb's temperaments?
> 
> The point everyone is making is that an ethical and responsible breeder will conduct test matings on paper with all the knowledge of the history of the lines, their temperaments, their faults, their health problems etc etc etc... to get a good "idea" about how those pups turn out. Yes nurture plays a big part too, but nature is also important.
> 
> ...


and I wasnt throwing that into the mix just saying that I had met them and what wonderful 'people' they are, not trying to be controversial in any way


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

tashi said:


> and I wasnt throwing that into the mix just saying that I had met them and what wonderful 'people' they are, not trying to be controversial in any way


Your wonderful too Tashi and your beautiful puppies were just little poppets.
Think Elmo thought so too.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Can you lot stop being so nice to each other in the middle of my argument :001_tt2:

thank you


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> OK.. last crack at this. But, as worthy and fantastic as it may be, breeding your bitch does not have an ethical purpose, you are doing it because you want to.


yes i did it because i wanted to, but i did it ethically & tried to produce quality examples of my breed, but in 9 1/2yrs ive bred 1 litter & kept 3 of the 4 puppies born, so i dont consider myself anything but ethical, also i am never going to breed again, my breed is being exploited to death by people cashing in on their popularity, theres terrible examples of them in rescue & husky crosses all over the place, it breaks my heart! so instead of breeding when i have room im going to get one from rescue.



Natik said:


> U say most, that means there are those who arent ethical and im sure u dont know all sibe breeders and showers in the whole uk
> 
> i didnt say they have to be tested (i believe there should be seperate breeding and pet groups though where breeding dogs after a certain age would have to be tested before entering), i just wanted to point out that sick dogs are winning and to me breed standard includes health... a blind lab (getting blind in the future obviously) for instance is not the best of example of the breed and is not deserving of a rosette. but thats my opinion....
> 
> showing is there to find the best example of the breed and an ill dog is not a good example ... even though the illness isnt present on the day of the show doesnt mean its not there lurking inside ready for breaking out....


yes of course there are unethical out there & i never said i did know all the sibe breeders, i said those that i know are ethical.

& i agree i dont think dogs with illnesses should be shown or get placed, i can honestly say ive never seen a sick dog get placed tho, but my breed is a relatively healthy breed,


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Can you lot stop being so nice to each other in the middle of my argument :001_tt2:
> 
> thank you


Do you want a cuppa and a slice of cake?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> yes of course there are unethical out there & i never said i did know all the sibe breeders, i said those that i know are ethical.
> 
> & i agree i dont think dogs with illnesses should be shown or get placed, i can honestly say ive never seen a sick dog get placed tho, but my breed is a relatively healthy breed,


there are illnesses like i said which wont be there on the outside on the present day and come out from an certain age and there are illnesses which arent visible as such to the human eye.... im applying this to all kc breeds not just sibes


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> there are illnesses like i said which wont be there on the outside on the present day and come out from an certain age and there are illnesses which arent visible as such to the human eye.... im applying this to all kc breeds not just sibes


What about Carriers then,Where would you draw the line ?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> there are illnesses like i said which wont be there on the outside on the present day and come out from an certain age and there are illnesses which arent visible as such to the human eye.... im applying this to all kc breeds not just sibes


if judges cant see them theres not much they can do, if they can then they shouldnt get placed, if dogs are know to have genetic disease they shouldnt get placed either.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> What about Carriers then,Where would you draw the line ?


good point!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Badger's Mum said:


> Do you want a cuppa and a slice of cake?


Ooooo lovely, thanks


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Caroline left this one a little close to the edge of the counter....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> What about Carriers then,Where would you draw the line ?


carriers are very different to affected dogs... carriers can be mated and obviously people would be aware of that the dog is a carrier and make sure their dog aint one if wanting to mate with this particular dog....


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Can you lot stop being so nice to each other in the middle of my argument :001_tt2:
> 
> thank you


 is this an argument! i thought it was a debate


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> if judges cant see them theres not much they can do, if they can then they shouldnt get placed, if dogs are know to have genetic disease they shouldnt get placed either.


what should be and what is are two different worlds im afraid ....


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> carriers are very different to affected dogs... carriers can be mated and obviously people would be aware of that the dog is a carrier and make sure their dog aint one if wanting to mate with this particular dog....


How would people know though,no information would be disclosed in the show catalogue.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> How would people know though,no information would be disclosed in the show catalogue.


obviously if health tests are done then u can look up the particual dog on the kc health tests result website


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> is this an argument! i thought it was a debate


Sorry..

can you two stop being so nice to each other in the middle of this deba....

no that doesn't work so well...............


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Natik said:


> obviously if health tests are done then u can look up the particual dog on the kc health tests result website


But without compulsory health testing this doesn't have to be done... even the revised standard published by KC doesn't introduce compulsion.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> But without compulsory health testing this doesn't have to be done... even the revised standard published by KC doesn't introduce compulsion.


thats why i think it would be best to split showing into breeding and pet and for the breeding ones health testing should become compulsory prior to enter the show....


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Which is fantastic and long may they continue to do so... but they don't need to, so their "purpose" is no different to any other dog... to be a companion?


For my needs they are a companion, however if i wished they could still do the job that their breed was designed for, thats the point i was making. Crossbreeds have no "job".... now i did ask a question about producing crossbreeds for a job earlier but noone replied.



Elmo the Bear said:


> I've just told Elmo he has no ethical purpose... he's cancelling his sponsored cycle ride in aid of the Blue Cross as we speak.


WOW now that is a purpose!

I want to see him cycling! :001_tt2:
:wink5:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry..
> 
> can you two stop being so nice to each other in the middle of this deba....
> 
> no that doesn't work so well...............


well it works better for me!


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

Natik said:


> thats why i think it would be best to split showing into breeding and pet and for the breeding ones health testing should become compulsory prior to enter the show....


agree with you there...

EVERY available health test for that specific breed should be compulsory and passed to satisfactory standards in order to be shown and to have any offspring registered.

I would also like so see licences for breeding compulsory after the first litter, and the prices be very expensive (say around £2k). This i think would put off alot of BYB from even thinking about breeding more than one litter.

The thing is though... we already have laws in place to stop puppy farming, but theyre not enforced, its time the fecking police, public and government took off their blindfolds, pulled their fingers out of their a** and did something! :cursing:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> WOW now that is a purpose!
> 
> I want to see him cycling! :001_tt2:
> :wink5:


 me too!:laugh:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> agree with you there...
> 
> EVERY available health test for that specific breed should be compulsory and passed to satisfactory standards in order to be shown and to have any offspring registered.
> 
> ...


athough i agree with everything you say Sal...what about dogs like my three 4yr olds they arnt health tested because im not breeding them, do you think even they should be tested?


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> me too!:laugh:


never fear the queen of google is here!

ive found his mam! Seems its a family trait!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> For my needs they are a companion, however if i wished they could still do the job that their breed was designed for, thats the point i was making. Crossbreeds have no "job".... now i did ask a question about producing crossbreeds for a job earlier but noone replied.
> 
> WOW now that is a purpose!
> 
> ...


Sorry that was the point. Crossbreeds are (IMO) produced with the sole purpose of being a companion... as are KC dogs (past purposes taken into account). I just a little (did I say a little) when I'm told that my dog has now purpose where as decoy dogs are still "needed" in the 21st century (trust they're not). All great dogs but none has a higher purpose than the next...

... Elmo in cycling shorts?.... now there is something to behold ..


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> never fear the queen of google is here!
> 
> ive found his mam! Seems its a family trait!


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Thats my boy he will be doing Tour de France next year.
Now there's a purpose lol.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> athough i agree with everything you say Sal...what about dogs like my three 4yr olds they arnt health tested because im not breeding them, do you think even they should be tested?


yes, if u would want them to show in the breed section rather than the pet show section ....


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> athough i agree with everything you say Sal...what about dogs like my three 4yr olds they arnt health tested because im not breeding them, do you think even they should be tested?


If you are wanting to show them then yes personally i think they should be. 

Showing is also about showing dogs which are fit and healthy, and you cannot prove that fully without the reccomended health tests for that breed - just my opinion though. Of course with regards to genetic testing if they are "inherited clear" it would be pointless retesting.

I also think that for other people with dogs of the same line it would be beneficial to have all the information available of other dogs on the show arena (as pups who go to purely pet homes wont need testing as adults) to have a fuller picture for making decisions based upon the health and traits of a line.

Just how i feel... i would like to see it much stricter with regards to the health and capability of breeds.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> never fear the queen of google is here!
> 
> ive found his mam! Seems its a family trait!


:lol: aww bless! only you could find this Sal!


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## HighPr00 (Aug 9, 2009)

Natik said:


> yes, if u would want them to show in the breed section rather than the pet show section ....


Makes sense to me.


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## Badger's Mum (Mar 23, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Caroline left this one a little close to the edge of the counter....


Hate to be rude but i'll pass on that one thankyou  night all


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

I wonder if this is where people got the idea of hamster wheels from :lol:


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> yes, if u would want them to show in the breed section rather than the pet show section ....





billyboysmammy said:


> If you are wanting to show them then yes personally i think they should be.
> 
> Showing is also about showing dogs which are fit and healthy, and you cannot prove that fully without the reccomended health tests for that breed - just my opinion though. Of course with regards to genetic testing if they are "inherited clear" it would be pointless retesting.
> 
> ...


i have no problem eye testing them but i wouldnt put them through a hip scoring unless i was breeding them, my breed are sensitive to aneasthetics & sedatives and i'd never risk them for the showring so i think i'd just call it a day!

what about all the youngsters under a year then?


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Can I just say, I show/work/judge/ and breed and I beleive I am an ethical breeder. I show my dogs because I enjoy it, it is an extension of my time with my dogs, I work my dogs for the same reason, I bred my dog because *I* wanted another dog, and as I had a better chance of a mother accepting her offspring in my breed, than to buy a pup in, I will not breed unless I am keeping one. I had a two year waiting list for my pups before I even bred, I am on minimum monthy contact with all owners of my pups, and all the pups I bred are on contract to be returned to me if anything goes wrong, All my dogs are heath tested, even the ones I am never going to breed from, in fact I had more test done than required by the KC or my breed club, because *I* wanted to know their status, just because I show does NOT make me un ethical and I know many people who have the same integrity as myself who also show, showing is NOT all about making out your dog is better than anyones else, or trying to get people interested in getting a pup from you, its about sharing time with friends, and their dogs, having a day out from the stresses of life. yes there are some people that treat showing as "just business" but there are many that showing is nothing more than a day out. edited to add, I would LOVE it if it was a requirement for dogs that are showing had to produce their health clearances, because I do know that some dogs do win that have health issues that are not visible to the naked eye.

Mo


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## billyboysmammy (Sep 12, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> i have no problem eye testing them but i wouldnt put them through a hip scoring unless i was breeding them, my breed are sensitive to aneasthetics & sedatives and i'd never risk them for the showring so i think i'd just call it a day!
> 
> what about all the youngsters under a year then?


i think with that they cant get cc's? (well i know in cats they cant lol until they go into the adult classes) - sorry i dont know enough... so it kind of doesnt matter until they are mature....

This is the thing isnt it... i am bandying around my opinions but i dont have the experience of showing nor breeding.

I didnt consider the anaesthetic risks to the dog either for doing testing, Still i'm going to stick with what i think... I would like to see every dog competing in the showring (pet shows and pups aside) to be health tested. controvertial yes...

Its like i would like to see compulsory microchipping in all dogs (unless medical condition said otherwise), and cats. And in pet kittens i would like to see compulsory neutering too


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Well I must say, I am most suprised to see this thread still going, do not really have must to say on the matter other then have you lot got nothing better to do on a Saturday night?
I guess not.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Natik said:


> thats why i think it would be best to split showing into breeding and pet and for the breeding ones health testing should become compulsory prior to enter the show....


What would you do about puppy/junior/yearling classes? It is impossible to do some of the health tests (eg hip scoring) before that age, and also impossible to know whether a dog or bitch is suitable to be used for breeding before that age either.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i have no problem eye testing them but i wouldnt put them through a hip scoring unless i was breeding them, my breed are sensitive to aneasthetics & sedatives and i'd never risk them for the showring so i think i'd just call it a day!
> 
> what about all the youngsters under a year then?


if there would be two show sections breed and pet then surely u would show in the pet section then where health testing wouldnt be required....

u wouldnt breed from a dog under a year old ... would u  so obviously the health tests would come to place at a certain age...


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> What would you do about puppy/junior/yearling classes? It is impossible to do some of the health tests (eg hip scoring) before that age, and also impossible to know whether a dog or bitch is suitable to be used for breeding before that age either.


obviously breeding classes would start from a certain age .... from the age where the health testing can take place 
and before that surely u wouldnt breed the dog anyway, would u?


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## moboyd (Sep 29, 2009)

Smarty Pants said:


> Well I must say, I am most suprised to see this thread still going, do not really have must to say on the matter other then have you lot got nothing better to do on a Saturday night?
> I guess not.


well I suppose we could be in the pub, wasting our money getting drunk and forgetting what we did all night?

Mo


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

billyboysmammy said:


> i think with that they cant get cc's? (well i know in cats they cant lol until they go into the adult classes) - sorry i dont know enough... so it kind of doesnt matter until they are mature....
> 
> This is the thing isnt it... i am bandying around my opinions but i dont have the experience of showing nor breeding.
> 
> ...


if it means healthier dogs im all for it, i dont take showing that seriously anyway



Natik said:


> if there would be two show sections breed and pet then surely u would show in the pet section then where health testing wouldnt be required....
> 
> u wouldnt breed from a dog under a year old ... would u  so obviously the health tests would come to place at a certain age...


okno you would never breed from a dog so young.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> if there would be two show sections breed and pet then surely u would show in the pet section then where health testing wouldnt be required....


I do not understand the logic in having two show sections. In some classes it can be difficult to get a reasonable entry anyway. That aside, most show dogs are both pets and show dogs. They may or may not be bred from and the main problem I can see is that it could cause a split in the breed into 'pet' and 'show', further narrowing the gene pool. On a practical level, how many extra volunteers and judges would be needed to run double the amount of classes.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Dundee said:


> I do not understand the logic in having two show sections. In some classes it can be difficult to get a reasonable entry anyway. That aside, most show dogs are both pets and show dogs. They may or may not be bred from and the main problem I can see is that it could cause a split in the breed into 'pet' and 'show', further narrowing the gene pool. On a practical level, how many extra volunteers and judges would be needed to run double the amount of classes.


I agree and don't we already have companion dog shows for pets and non recognised breeds


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> I do not understand the logic in having two show sections. In some classes it can be difficult to get a reasonable entry anyway.


the logic behind is to ensure all breeding stock being shown AND bred would be health tested.... and so the rosettes be well deserved on the health side at least 



Dundee said:


> That aside, most show dogs are both pets and show dogs.


"pets and show dogs" would be entered in the pet show section then 



Dundee said:


> They may or may not be bred from


If they may or may not would depend on the health test results obviously, untill then u wouldnt have a need to enter breed show section 



Dundee said:


> and the main problem I can see is that it could cause a split in the breed into 'pet' and 'show', further narrowing the gene pool.


The split would only be in tested and untested dogs and to preserve a wide gene pool to involve untested dogs into the breeding program isnt very helpfull either 



Dundee said:


> On a practical level, how many extra volunteers and judges would be needed to run double the amount of classes.


I dont know how many... maybe double??? does it matter as long as its for the bettering of the breeds?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> I agree and don't we already have companion dog shows for pets and non recognised breeds


thats not the point... its about ensuring breeding stock is health tested .... those who dont health test but show AND breed dont deserve a rosette at champshows for instance IMO ... do u think those who show but dont health test BUT do breed are deserving a rosette???


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> thats not the point... its about ensuring breeding stock is health tested .... those who dont health test but show AND breed dont deserve a rosette at champshows for instance IMO


How would you make it work though ?

A judge has no access to the show catalogue prior to a show,as you said some dogs don't show the diseases till later on,so how would a judge know which dog was tested and which wasn't ?

The majority of show dogs are tested anyway.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> How would you make it work though ?
> 
> A judge has no access to the show catalogue prior to a show,as you said some dogs don't show the diseases till later on,so how would a judge know which dog was tested and which wasn't ?
> 
> The majority of show dogs are tested anyway.


u would have to apply somehow a month or so before the show with the KC registered name of the dog so they can check on their database if dog was tested and if passed and send out by email or post an ticket or so....

... im just brain storming.... of course everything is difficult to put into reality in first place but not impossible....

The majority of dogs are not health tested properly... alot breeds require more than one health test and the majority of breeders only pick out one and miss out on the rest, thats not proper health testing.....


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> thats not the point... its about ensuring breeding stock is health tested .... those who dont health test but show AND breed dont deserve a rosette at champshows for instance IMO ... do u think those who show but dont health test BUT do breed are deserving a rosette???


i thought you were talking about dogs like my 4yr olds who are not & never will be used for breeding but are shown


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

I think that suggesting hip scoring for dogs that are used primarly for showing is ludercrous.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Smarty Pants said:


> I think that suggesting hip scoring for dogs that are used primarly for showing is ludercrous.


no, showing AND breeding.....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> i thought you were talking about dogs like my 4yr olds who are not & never will be used for breeding but are shown


no, im just on about the ones which are shown AND bred from.... thats why i would call it breeding show section


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Breeding YES, just for showing NO, if people have no intentions of breeding, and not all that show do, why put the dog through a procedure that involves anesthetic? Which, can carry risks.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> .
> 
> The majority of dogs are not health tested properly... alot breeds require more than one health test and the majority of breeders only pick out one and miss out on the rest, thats not proper health testing.....


Do you have any evidence to back up that statement,it's a rather sweeping one I think.
How many show breeder's do you know ?
How many CH shows do you go to ?

The majority of Staffords that are shown are Fully tested for breed specific conditions found within the breed.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Smarty Pants said:


> Breeding YES, just for showing NO, if people have no intentions of breeding, and not all that show do, why put the dog through a procedure that involves anesthetic? Which, can carry risks.


read back... those who want to show but NOT breed would enter the pet show section where health tests wouldnt be required


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Do you have any evidence to back up that statement,it's a rather sweeping one I think.
> How many show breeder's do you know ?
> How many CH shows do you go to ?
> 
> The majority of Staffords that are shown are Fully tested for breed specific conditions found within the breed.


do u have any evidence to back up ur statement? (and i wasnt apllying mine to only one breed)...


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> The poster implied that showing itself had some ethics. As in :
> 
> Possible ethical reason =
> "the purpose of this dog show is to ensure that the dogs we breed who perform necessary task x are being bred correctly"
> ...


You are reading something into my comment that was simply not there. Some people like to do Agility, or Flyball, or Showing or whatever. 
For people who enjoy Showing, their dog would have to be from registered purebred lines, papered, and all that goes with it.
With a rescue dog if papers are handed in the rescue [ reputable ones anyway ] keep the papers so those dog can`t go in the Breed ring, therefore people wanting to do Showing as their hobby/activity with their dog would have no option but to choose the Breeder route, that`s all the point was for, nothing more nothing less, the ethics/rights or wrongs of Showing would be a whole other debate.

So, if people are not interested in Showing, so don`t need their dog to be papered/registered, there are breed rescues for every breed going so it would be great if people would consider that route before, or at least as well as, the breeder route.

With crosses there is no Showing aspect/papers to consider at all so I do personally believe rescue should morally be the first and only port of call for anyone who would like a crossbreed to share their lives, after all in terms of health prospects they will certainly be no worse off on gambling than if going to a crossbreeder directly and if getting a slightly older than pup would have more idea what the adult will be like at least, all of which would discourage designer breeders if they are not finding a market of buyers.

Hope that clarifies :smilewinkgrin:


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> read back... those who want to show but NOT breed would enter the pet show section where health tests wouldnt be required


But why would anyone want to enter a 'pet show' surely if a person has what they consider to be a perfect example of the breed that they do not want a little from they should be just as entitled to enter a show qualifying for CH as anyone else, Are we looking at re organizing crufts now too, because by doing this that is what you would need to do.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> no, im just on about the ones which are shown AND bred from.... thats why i would call it breeding show section


 i agree dogs which are shown and used for breeding should be health tested but to be honest i cant see why those who are just shown but not tested cant be shown alongside them, maybe someone who never intended to breed but had a really excellent quality dog which was conistently winning would change their mind about breeding, then they would need to health tests to make sure it had no genetic conditions.

infact i only bred my bitch because she did well in shows had she not i wouldnt have bred her


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> do u have any evidence to back up ur statement? (and i wasnt apllying mine to only one breed)...


No I don't however I did not make such a sweeping statement suggesting that the majority of show dogs are not tested properly.I said the majority of show dogs are tested.

May I suggest you visit a CH Show over the four days,grab a catalogue,research ALL Breeds and dogs shown then make your assumption based on the facts,not on your beliefs and speculation and don't forget not all dogs that are shown are bred from and vice versa.

As you don't show in CH Shows I would like to know where you obtain your information.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> its about ensuring breeding stock is health tested ....


but most puppies born don't come from breeding stock that's health tested, nor do they come from show dogs. There are quite a few members of this forum that have litters atm, and from those that I recall, none are shown, nor have health tests been carried out.

I can understand why you want it, and can understand your frustration if an unhealthy dog wins or gets placed, but I don't think holding different classes for pets and breeders would be beneficial in any way.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Do you have any evidence to back up that statement,it's a rather sweeping one I think.
> How many show breeder's do you know ?
> How many CH shows do you go to ?
> 
> The majority of Staffords that are shown are Fully tested for breed specific conditions found within the breed.


German shepherd dog crufts 09....

Best of breed and CC (male) only hip scores

Bitch CC.... NO health tests

reserve dog and bitch cc... cant find dog on database 

u would of think that those dogs should have been tested properly or at all in one of the cases....

... cant be bothered checking all other breeds but i think i made my point


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> but most puppies born don't come from breeding stock that's health tested, nor do they come from show dogs. There are quite a few members of this forum that have litters atm, and from those that I recall, none are shown, nor have health tests been carried out.
> 
> I can understand why you want it, and can understand your frustration if an unhealthy dog wins or gets placed, but I don't think holding different classes for pets and breeders would be beneficial in any way.


those are from pet breeders though and would be registered as such


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Patch said:


> You are reading something into my comment that was simply not there. Some people like to do Agility, or Flyball, or Showing or whatever.
> For people who enjoy Showing, their dog would have to be from registered purebred lines, papered, and all that goes with it.
> With a rescue dog if papers are handed in the rescue [ reputable ones anyway ] keep the papers so those dog can`t go in the Breed ring, therefore people wanting to do Showing as their hobby/activity with their dog would have no option but to choose the Breeder route, that`s all the point was for, nothing more nothing less, the ethics/rights or wrongs of Showing would be a whole other debate.
> 
> ...


Not at all. Showing is not an ethical reason to breed dogs.

Surely, using your own argument, KC breeders should also be discouraged as there is no advantage or purpose (other than the enjoyment the humans get from the show) and it would discourage people paying money for KC dogs and encourage them to go to a rescue instead. They will certainly be no worse off than gambling on an unethical KC breeder who has no health checks (as they don't have to).

You make the consideration for showing sound like it has some advantage to the dog.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> those are from pet breeders though and would be registered as such


so pet breeders wouldn't have to health test when they breed and who would they be registered with? Some of them at least, aren't kc registered either?


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> ... cant be bothered checking all other breeds but i think i made my point


Not really No.

Unless the breeders or owners submit the results for certain breeds to the KC then they won't show on the database,so actually you haven't proved anything.

I had to send in proof of my bitches parents results BEFORE the KC added the info into there database and onto her KC Documents.

Have you spoken to the dogs owners / breeders,such a statement with out any proof could be potentially liable.

SBT BOB & Dog CC Tested.
Bitch CC Tested.
Best Puppy Tested.
I think I prove my point


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

I should add that if you do get KC dogs from rescue you are unlikely to get the pedigree (simply the history of the dog) whereas if you go to a good breeder (of crosses or KC dogs) you should get a full copy of all the health tests carried out and the history (pedigree).[/QUOTE]

but there is no such thing as a pedigree for a crossbreed


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> so pet breeders wouldn't have to health test when they breed and who would they be registered with? Some of them at least, aren't kc registered either.


kc would probably insist on keep registering them but the registration value would drop as the guarantee of health testing would go with those who show in the breeding section  lol

im seriously only trying to figure out some ways to get forward as the way showing is at the moment is rather depressing i find.... that includes those who take advantage of showing and the rosettes, those unfair judges, those who have winning rather than dogs health as their priority, those who win and dont deserve it etc etc .... there must be ways to improve rather than be stuck....


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Not really No.
> 
> Unless the breeders or owners submit the results for certain breeds to the KC then they won't show on the database,so actually you haven't proved anything.
> 
> ...


why wouldnt a breeder wouldnt want to submit the results with the kc???


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Not at all. Showing is not an ethical reason to breed dogs.
> 
> Surely, using your own argument, KC breeders should also be discouraged as there is no advantage or purpose (other than the enjoyment the humans get from the show) and it would discourage people paying money for KC dogs and encourage them to go to a rescue instead. They will certainly be no worse off than gambling on an unethical KC breeder who has no health checks (as they don't have to).
> 
> You make the consideration for showing sound like it has some advantage to the dog.


So we need to educate the puplic to seek a responsible breeder then when seeking a pup even if that pup is to be purely a companion. The specific breed organiszations are often more strict in their breeding regimes, combime this with the KC registration and at least people will have an idea of what they are getting. It is not a difficult task to check the paperwork to back up any health tasks, there are records of this with the BVA and also I belive eye testinf and hip scoring results on the KC database. A little homework can save a lot of misery.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> why wouldnt a breeder wouldnt want to submit the results with the kc???


Simple answer I don't know.
Some do send results in,yet they are not added or showing in the database.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Simple answer I don't know.
> Some do send results in,yet they are not added or showing in the database.


im sure (but correct me if im wrong) u claimed about others on here for not health testing by checking the database too...

I would think of they dont send it in becauuse A) failed health test B) bad results....

Nothing else i could think of about not wanting to show the world ur responsibility as a breeder


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## majortom (May 7, 2009)

tashi said:


> all the judging was 'done' before we even stepped in the ring apparently we were told the winners all the way through all sorted in the bar the night before


LOL
a mate went to show other week and judge arrives with her mate and mates dogs
mate enters her dogs and gets the lot


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

majortom said:


> I should add that if you do get KC dogs from rescue you are unlikely to get the pedigree (simply the history of the dog) whereas if you go to a good breeder (of crosses or KC dogs) you should get a full copy of all the health tests carried out and the history (pedigree).


but there is no such thing as a pedigree for a crossbreed[/QUOTE]

Except I have several generations of paperwork from both parents of my crossbreed. These include scores (hip/elbow) and eyes. A pedigree is just a history.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

eye testing done by our breed club for example, goes to the breed historian for the breed health data base, its not done through the BVA/KC scheme so it wont be on their data base.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> eye testing done by our breed club for example, goes to the breed historian for the breed health data base, its not done through the BVA/KC scheme so it wont be on their data base.


but could u send it in so it shows on their database alongside the other results??


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I would think of they dont send it in becauuse A) failed health test B) bad results....


Well, I don't show, so can't speak for the show world, but I have DNA test results that are not automatically added to the KC database and I haven't contacted them to add them myself. I may get round to doing it but it isn't important - and the result was clear. I have the result, puppy buyers will get a copy of the certificate....

There are now so many tests that not all are automatically added and do require individuals to contact the KC independantly.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Natik said:


> im sure (but correct me if im wrong) u claimed about others on here for not health testing by checking the database too...


My breed yes, and it is slightly different in that the AHT send results of all tested dogs direct to the KC and then they enter them into the database as in the case of my dog,who was tested in July 07.



Natik said:


> I would think of they dont send it in becauuse A) failed health test B) bad results....


Really again an assumption,maybe they don't bother sending in results as they have no interest in breeding........
And like I said just because results are not showing,doesn't mean a certain dog isn't tested.



Natik said:


> Nothing else i could think of about not wanting to show the world ur responsibility as a breeder


Not all people who test, go onto breed.
My bitches results are showing in the database,however I sent them in before she was spayed otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> My breed yes, and it is slightly different in that the AHT send results of all tested dogs direct to the KC and then they enter them into the database as in the case of my dog,who was tested in July 07.
> 
> Really again an assumption,maybe they don't bother sending in results as they have no interest in breeding........
> And like I said just because results are not showing,doesn't mean a certain dog isn't tested.
> ...


So basiclly another tool by the KC which is plain useless, whats the point of it then lol im not surprised though


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Natik said:


> but could u send it in so it shows on their database alongside the other results??


i dont think so but im not sure, but if know one else on here knows i'll find out


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Well, I don't show, so can't speak for the show world, but I have DNA test results that are not automatically added to the KC database and I haven't contacted them to add them myself. I may get round to doing it but it isn't important - and the result was clear. I have the result, puppy buyers will get a copy of the certificate....
> 
> There are now so many tests that not all are automatically added and do require individuals to contact the KC independantly.


i dont see the point of the health tests result finder then when its not complete and breeders who do breed lol dont bother keeping it up to date by sending in the results ...


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Not at all. Showing is not an ethical reason to breed dogs.


I did`nt say it was or was`nt, my point was regarding the buyer/adopters consideration, not the breeders. If someone wants to do Showing as an activity to share with their pet then they have to have a purebred/registerred etc dog to do it with.



> Surely, using your own argument, KC breeders should also be discouraged as there is no advantage or purpose (other than the enjoyment the humans get from the show)


The KC does`nt breed dogs. Breeders who pay their money to register with the KC do. Breed societites deal with the Standards/Breed Ethics etc, not the KC. The KC hold databases, put on shows, and take in lots of money, but the organisation itself does`nt breed the dogs :wink5:



> and it would discourage people paying money for KC dogs and encourage them to go to a rescue instead. They will certainly be no worse off than gambling on an unethical KC breeder who has no health checks (as they don't have to).


Take out the ethical purebred breeders and you might as well say good bye to dogs, if only the unethical were left breeding the life spans and general health of all dogs in the future would be a downward spiral. For dogs to have a healthy future there have to be ethical breeders bettering and maintaining the existing breeds. 
With the unethical purebred breeders yes the gamble is there every bit as much as with all crossbreeds so again it`s better to go to a rescue than line the pockets of the unethical breeders.



> You make the consideration for showing sound like it has some advantage to the dog.


You are trying to twist it that way, I don`t know why you would want to but it is your choice to do so if that`s what suits you :smilewinkgrin: 
Do I think it has an advantage to the individual dogs themselves ? 
If they enjoy it, well yes, if they don`t, then no - and those which don`t enjoy it as an activity tend to be retired pretty quick as they don`t Show well, they don`t sparkle in the ring, they don`t show their character, they don`t move well, so they get overlooked anyway, it`s pretty pointless taking Showing seriously if the dog itself does`nt want to do it.

On the more general side - bearing in mind there are poor owner-examples in all things - for the vast majority, the dogs in Showing get the best possible health care, optimum exercise regimes, stacks of socialisation, and whatever else they need to keep them in tip top mental and physical shape, and - dare I say it - lives in which they can just be themselves. 
There are some glorious Poodles which come to my Agility club, in addition to Agility they do Breed Shows, [ and they do very well, they are *excellent* examples of the breed in health, temperament and to the Standard ], and they take part in Obedience competitions, plus they do HTM type `trick` work purely for the enjoyment they [ the dogs ] get from training, learning, interacting with their owners. 
The majority of Show dogs do have lovely lives, the show ring part of it just happens to be something they `do` same as agility dogs get to do agility, flyball dogs get to do flyball, etc etc.

Any positive activity which is to the mental and physical benefit of a dog certainly is an advantage to that dog, how could it not be ?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Patch said:


> I did`nt say it was or was`nt, my point was regarding the buyer/adopters consideration, not the breeders. If someone wants to do Showing as an activity to share with their pet then they have to have a purebred/registerred etc dog to do it with.
> 
> The KC does`nt breed dogs. Breeders who pay their money to register with the KC do. Breed societites deal with the Standards/Breed Ethics etc, not the KC. The KC hold databases, put on shows, and take in lots of money, but the organisation itself does`nt breed the dogs :wink5:
> 
> ...


Fair play. You really believe all that (including the bit where you know what the dogs like) and the bits where I twisted your words... and the best bit "the KC don't breed dogs" (I didn't say they did "KC breeders".. but you knew what I meant).

You carry on believing all the stuff you write... everyone needs a little make believe to get through the day.

Read back on posts from those who show. Sick dogs in the ring because breeders have no regulations to keep the dogs well or breed them healthily.. not me.. people who show.

You said "the dogs in Showing get the best possible health care, optimum exercise regimes, stacks of socialisation, and whatever else they need to keep them in tip top mental and physical shape"

... some do.. many don't. Please remove the rose tinted specs for two minutes and you might actually do the dogs you love (KC registered only) a favour by helping to protect them as opposed to pretending that KC dogs are in great health (or breed club or whatever else you want to call them) and all other dogs have some issues.

Sorry... foudn another one that made me laugh:

You said

"Any positive activity which is to the mental and physical benefit of a dog certainly is an advantage to that dog, how could it not be ?"

... how do you know it is.. is it the little "sparkle" they show (give me strength)


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> i dont see the point of the health tests result finder then when its not complete and breeders who do breed lol dont bother keeping it up to date by sending in the results ...


Well, the main reason they are not complete is that not all health tests (particularly the DNA ones, the numbers of which are growing rapidly) are done in conjunction with the KC (like the BVA/KC health tests so they are not automatically sent to the KC. The online database is only a very recent addition (although the BVA/KC results have always been available in the BRS) so is really a work in progress. The DNA tests come from a number of different companies / laboratories both here in the UK and abroad. I'm sure in time it will happen. There are also individuals and breed clubs that keep these records even if not submitted to he KC. You just have to know where to look.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Thank you very much for you input Patch, although it appears not all appreciate what you have written I for one have found what you have written to be both interesting and educational . I shall certainly look forward to reading any more threads that you contribute to. Well done.
With that I shall bid you good people farewell, my bed is calling.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Fair play. You really believe all that (including the bit where you know what the dogs like) and the bits where I twisted your words... and the best bit "the KC don't breed dogs" (I didn't say they did "KC breeders".. but you knew what I meant).
> 
> You carry on believing all the stuff you write... everyone needs a little make believe to get through the day.
> 
> ...


Was this really necessary?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Can we get this back on topic for the OP please.
Cockerpoo's i think this thread is called.
Many thanks.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> You carry on believing all the stuff you write... everyone needs a little make believe to get through the day.
> 
> Read back on posts from those who show. Sick dogs in the ring because breeders have no regulations to keep the dogs well or breed them healthily.. not me.. people who show.
> 
> ...


How rude - and you have the nerve to accuse me of being dismissive


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Back on topic please thank you.
Cockerpoo is the title many thanks.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Well the thread was started on the 1st October, Delta, the original poster has made just sevn post the last being on the 2nd October, It is now the 3rd October and thirty one pages later maybe the original poster is still no clearer, or maybe they have been scared of.
So to the Original poster all I will say is the best of luck in finding your dog.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Smarty Pants said:


> Well the thread was started on the 1st October, Delta, the original poster has made just sevn post the last being on the 2nd October, It is now the 3rd October and thirty four pages later maybe the original poster is still no clearer, or maybe they have been scared of.
> So to the Original poster all I will say is the best of luck in finding your dog.


Its sad really as the OP needed some advice a yet again its gone off topic.
Lets hope the OP has found her dog like you have said.


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Colsy said:


> Its sad really as the OP needed some advice a yet again its gone off topic.
> Lets hope the OP has found her dog like you have said.


Yes I agree with you 100% , I have not been here long and can deal with most things, but I am afraid that sarcasm does tend to stop me in my tracks . I do hope that the original poster has not been put off by this.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Smarty Pants said:


> Yes I agree with you 100% , I have not been here long and can deal with most things, but I am afraid that sarcasm does tend to stop me in my tracks . I do hope that the original poster has not been put off by this.


Lets hope not this is a Pet Forum for all types of dogs.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Actually the thread went off topic on page 18 when Elmo asked the question



> Sorry to appear ignorant but can you explain to me the ethical purpose of "showing".


It's now on page 32 and only now it's suggested it's gone off topic ?


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Actually the thread went off topic on page 18 when Elmo asked the question
> 
> It's now on page 32 and only now it's suggested it's gone off topic ?


It went off way before then and you joined in too.
So lets try and get it back again please.
Its a forum for ALL dogs of every type,we all need to remember this.
Many thanks.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> It went off way before then and you joined in too


It was still about cross breeds and health tests and looking for good breeders up until that point.


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Dundee said:


> It was still about cross breeds and health tests and looking for good breeders up until that point.


Cockerpoo's please thank you


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## Guest (Oct 3, 2009)

Dundee said:


> Actually the thread went off topic on page 18 when Elmo asked the question
> 
> It's now on page 32 and only now it's suggested it's gone off topic ?


That was what I was referring to, or to whom, I do admit to having only skimmed this thread (due to suffering jet lag) Maybe my sense of humer is not in 'top form'


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Cockapoo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Patch (Sep 29, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Fair play. You really believe all that (including the bit where you know what the dogs like) and the bits where I twisted your words... and the best bit "the KC don't breed dogs" (I didn't say they did "KC breeders".. but you knew what I meant).


I just went by the way it was written.
Lots of people still think the KC write the Breed Standards too but they don`t.
If you think I am a fan of the KC as an organisation, I have already stated that I am not :wink5:



> You carry on believing all the stuff you write... everyone needs a little make believe to get through the day.


Hmm a rather personal comment to make don`t you think ? 
Is that within the forums guidelines ? 
I believe the `stuff` I write as it`s based on a life times research and experience, that`s all anyone can do.



> Read back on posts from those who show. Sick dogs in the ring because breeders have no regulations to keep the dogs well or breed them healthily.. not me.. people who show.


Read back on my post in which I made it clear that I know full well there are bad apples in it, I referred to the majority, not `all`.



> You said "the dogs in Showing get the best possible health care, optimum exercise regimes, stacks of socialisation, and whatever else they need to keep them in tip top mental and physical shape"
> 
> ... some do.. many don't.


See sentence above.



> Please remove the rose tinted specs for two minutes


Please desist from personal insult, it adds nothing to a debate and belittles only yourself really.



> and you might actually do the dogs you love (KC registered only)


My 6 dogs are all rescues so they are not KC registered, [ except on the activities register so they can compete in the activities *they* *enjoy* :wink5: ], and two are crossbreeds as i have stated more than enough, one of them is on my avatar, she has never been mistaken before as a purebred anything :laugh:



> a favour by helping to protect them as opposed to pretending that KC dogs are in great health (or breed club or whatever else you want to call them) and all other dogs have some issues.


Please show me where I have stated that ? 
As it happens 3 of my 4 rescue`d purebreds have hereditary defects, they are all deaf, [ as is my little crossbreed....], and one is CEA affected. 
They are the result of disgraceful breeders. 
I have protested directly to the KC about them allowing known colour matches resulting in deafness going on their breed register, I actively oppose the KC directly on the other issue`s I feel they should take themselves to task over. 
Do you ?

Perhaps that will give you an idea why I am so passionate about this subject. I abhor the unethical, and support the ethical. As I have stated clearly earlier it`s not about the KC, take them out of the equation altogether, it`s about the *breeders* being good or bad.



> Sorry... foudn another one that made me laugh:
> 
> You said
> 
> ...


If you can`t see something as basic as if a dog is enjoying something or not, well, what can I say to that...

Perhaps pictures would help,

This is a dog enjoying playing with a toy










This is a dog enjoying running










This is a dog enjoying Agility










Those dogs are benefiting mentally and physically from what they are doing, that`s what `sparkle` looks like, hope that helps :smilewinkgrin:


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## Colsy (Oct 3, 2008)

Sorry to the OP.
Now locking this thread.


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