# Training a 12 week old pup to walk on lead without treats?



## Setter (May 5, 2009)

Hi, I wonder if anyone can tell me the basic tips to train a pup to walk on a lead without the use of treats? I tend not to use treats a lot if I can help it and was interested to know if anyone has trained their dog to walk nicely on the lead without using treats. When do you use the comand Heel etc?

I am a novice, so please excuse me. I have a trainer booked in for a 2hr consultation for the 5th Oct but am trying to get some basic training in the meantime.

Any help/advice would be appreciated


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

- anytime you move use heel
- walk off using your left foot as this acts as a guide (dog being on your left)
- bend down so the dog is no more than 6" away from your hand - they are unable to get purchace on the lead and initiate a run
- a simple collar will do though a check collar might also help if they are lively
- dont use to many 'good boys/girls', I find this interrupts them making them set off. (I use good boys/pats when they have done it for a lengh of time keeping it short)
- If they pull, stop put into a sit for a good few seconds, relax then set off again, repeating this instantly if they pull is a good way to let them know they wont move far if they dont do as you ask.
- small attention getting tugs/checks will have them look at you repeat 'heel', only issue them when they pull or better before they pull when they step ahead of you but try to use heel first to bring them back
- Ive never said heel and then given a lead check, I check the lead to get attention and then say heel after a few seconds (the other way round is "heel" then lead check which effectively makes it a bad word/punnishment)
- make heel a good word, have a nice tone in your voice
- look at them to see if they are looking at you they will be reassured they are doing the right thing
- dont loose patience they dont know english or who you are really
- you should see results reasonably quicky, but you will have to go back to it every day to really drill it in, then you should be able to relax just into a heel command in a few weeks
- use the envirnoment to suit you; approaching a road, noisy area or other dogs will help have them pay attention to you. Be very aware of other dogs and ask the owner if they are friendly before letting them interact (this helps them listen again)
- mix it up with other stuff like sits and walking around you
- walking around you using 'round' breaks the monotony, finnish with them in a sit
- always end positively, even if they arent heeling well, put them in a sit (or something they are good at) then praise well
- keep training a fun thing, in classes I use I train for 2 hrs with a break mid session
- pay attention to what might distract them; other dogs/leaves/bikes/lorrys/football game - use other commands like 'leave' after saying heel to settle them and pay attention
- at 12 weeks they are like sponges, you can do a lot of new things that they will take on, but come back to them dont use them as a whim and be consistent with what you use everytime
- You should source a good trainer (helps with socialisation) if it isnt picked up after a week of doing this..... mine was heeling very well after only a few days
- and lastly (just read this) I use praise sparingly now.... if he does something new he might get praise he might not (only a good boy), but when he was a few weeks old id praise pretty well immediate - issue no praise if they are not doing as asked - just be patient
- try to find out what they react to, try to keep this same tone/body language/direction as they all contribute and are very important as consistancy is essential
- at 12 weeks get a satchel, put them in it and take them places

 theres lots really - just get to know you dog id say


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

BUMPS another


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## Setter (May 5, 2009)

Thank you James


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

seems to be just me replying, hope it helps you just have to watch them like hawks. Keep cool and consistent is the best way for it, mine loves big soft hand praise so make them feel good, im not sure but id say this helps with recall too as they know your going to making them feel $mil. Just to say, they are supposed to react better to single syllable words dont know if you know that


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

The only thing i will say, is that pulling or checking a puppy is a no no. You can cause a lot of damage on a growing skeletal system.


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## Setter (May 5, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> The only thing i will say, is that pulling or checking a puppy is a no no. You can cause a lot of damage on a growing skeletal system.


so how is it best to do it then as Reuben pulls on the lead quite hard and I worry about his neck, so I tend to just stand still and then maybe make him sit and start off again (like what james said).
we went out this morning and tried and also had a little run together on the grass field - certainly keeps you fit!


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Setter said:


> so how is it best to do it then as Reuben pulls on the lead quite hard and I worry about his neck, so I tend to just stand still and then maybe make him sit and start off again (like what james said).
> we went out this morning and tried and also had a little run together on the grass field - certainly keeps you fit!


Can I ask why you are so reluctant to use positive training methods involving treats or other rewards rather than jerks and "corrections" (corrections is a nicer way of saying punishment, by the way).


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

Setter said:


> so how is it best to do it then as Reuben pulls on the lead quite hard and I worry about his neck, so I tend to just stand still and then maybe make him sit and start off again (like what james said).
> we went out this morning and tried and also had a little run together on the grass field - certainly keeps you fit!


Is there any reason you dont wish to use treats?

You could try using a harness while he is younger, but that may make his pulling worse until you have trained him to heel.

You need to find a way to get him focused on you. Without treats, i dont know what to suggest. I wouldnt recommend a halter on such a young dog either.

Training is all about focus, attention and motivation. You have to be more exciting and interesting than anything around him.


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## sophiew (Sep 20, 2009)

Practise in the garden or somewhere not when you're walking TO somewhere, lots of changes of direction, a couple of steps, turn -make it into a 'follow me' game that your pup will soon cotton on to! The pup needs to a) know that you're not predictable i.e you're not always going to walk in a straight line and b) that walking next to you is the most rewarding thing.

If you're not going to use treats (and that's your choice) then you need to think hard about how you are going to make it 'worth it' for your pup - just saying 'good boy' might not be enough! What's in it for him?

Sophie
x


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2009)

Hold the lead in two hands across the body like you'd hold a lead rein for a pony. Encourage pup forward using friendly happy tones and say a clear command "heel". When he starts to pull forward immediately drop the rein from the hand closest to his head and walk in the opposite direction. When he reaches your side in the heel position again, take hold of the lead again and praise him. I tend to use treats to emphasize praise but I suppose it could be done without them. The point of this is that the pup will learn (a) he doesn't go anywhere he wants to by pulling (in fact he will be made to walk complete opposite way) (b) his 'reward' is having you hold the lead properly so you can both walk nicely together in the desired direction (c) interacting and listening to you is fun (d) 'heel' means stay close and walk nicely by your side.

Good luck


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## staflove (Sep 4, 2008)

Setter said:


> Hi, I wonder if anyone can tell me the basic tips to train a pup to walk on a lead without the use of treats? I tend not to use treats a lot if I can help it and was interested to know if anyone has trained their dog to walk nicely on the lead without using treats. When do you use the comand Heel etc?
> 
> I am a novice, so please excuse me. I have a trainer booked in for a 2hr consultation for the 5th Oct but am trying to get some basic training in the meantime.
> 
> Any help/advice would be appreciated


I would continue with the treats if you are getting results in any training aspect good motivaters give you good results, however when you you achieve what you want then treat now and again, i take my dogs out and they are conditioned to the whistle so whaen they come they get treats and sometimes they get a praise from voice and a pat, they dont have to have treats i find not giving them treats all the time works better as they never no when they are coming hope this makes sence


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## Setter (May 5, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> Can I ask why you are so reluctant to use positive training methods involving treats or other rewards rather than jerks and "corrections" (corrections is a nicer way of saying punishment, by the way).


I am not against using positive training methods as he does get lots of praise and has treats for weeing in garden etc. I just wondered if you can train sometimes without treats being used all the time. he has and is learning a fair bit without treats and when gets down or 'leaves' things he gets a toy and praise etc.
But if treats are the way to go then i also am happy to take advice from those with experience and do whatever is the best way to achieve results. I think i was a tad worried that they will only ever do anything for a treat.


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## Setter (May 5, 2009)

louise5031 said:


> Hold the lead in two hands across the body like you'd hold a lead rein for a pony. Encourage pup forward using friendly happy tones and say a clear command "heel". When he starts to pull forward immediately drop the rein from the hand closest to his head and walk in the opposite direction. When he reaches your side in the heel position again, take hold of the lead again and praise him. I tend to use treats to emphasize praise but I suppose it could be done without them. The point of this is that the pup will learn (a) he doesn't go anywhere he wants to by pulling (in fact he will be made to walk complete opposite way) (b) his 'reward' is having you hold the lead properly so you can both walk nicely together in the desired direction (c) interacting and listening to you is fun (d) 'heel' means stay close and walk nicely by your side.
> 
> Good luck


This sounds good!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I dont think the jerk *small tug* corrections do any harm either phyically or mentally. Physically - them pulling would do equally as much damage if any at all - mentally they are pulling harder than you are tugging so i doubt its going to effect them that way either, just a mater of you winning the war not them .
I did say that you have to bend down, you can only let them have 6" of lead in the initial stages ... youll get a bit a back ache but this is what you have to do, its probably better in a class doing this as you dont feel as silly walking round fields doing it  I did any training in a big open and quiet field so I could see anyone approaching and so that I didnt feel an idiot  To be honest you get that into watching their every action you completely forget whos aound you anyway, and then when your training is done, youve got a field to play in


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## Setter (May 5, 2009)

staflove said:


> I would continue with the treats if you are getting results in any training aspect good motivaters give you good results, however when you you achieve what you want then treat now and again, i take my dogs out and they are conditioned to the whistle so whaen they come they get treats and sometimes they get a praise from voice and a pat, they dont have to have treats i find not giving them treats all the time works better as they never no when they are coming hope this makes sence


and this is a good idea too, not treating all the time. Thank you everyone


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

staflove said:


> I would continue with the treats if you are getting results in any training aspect good motivaters give you good results, however when you you achieve what you want then treat now and again, i take my dogs out and they are conditioned to the whistle so whaen they come they get treats and sometimes they get a praise from voice and a pat, they dont have to have treats i find not giving them treats all the time works better as they never no when they are coming hope this makes sence





sophiew said:


> Practise in the garden or somewhere not when you're walking TO somewhere, lots of changes of direction, a couple of steps, turn -make it into a 'follow me' game that your pup will soon cotton on to! The pup needs to a) know that you're not predictable i.e you're not always going to walk in a straight line and b) that walking next to you is the most rewarding thing.
> 
> If you're not going to use treats (and that's your choice) then you need to think hard about how you are going to make it 'worth it' for your pup - just saying 'good boy' might not be enough! What's in it for him?
> 
> ...


totally agree with these :wink5:


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

Setter said:


> I am not against using positive training methods as he does get lots of praise and has treats for weeing in garden etc. I just wondered if you can train sometimes without treats being used all the time. he has and is learning a fair bit without treats and when gets down or 'leaves' things he gets a toy and praise etc.
> But if treats are the way to go then i also am happy to take advice from those with experience and do whatever is the best way to achieve results. I think i was a tad worried that they will only ever do anything for a treat.


You can train without treats by all means - however if treats are what motivates YOUR dog then that is what will work best. Some dogs are motivated by praise, some by toys. Sometimes what they are motivated by will depend on the circumstances. With my dog, I tend to use treats to teach new things, and then use a toy to increase enthusiasm and "drive" once the behaviour is learnt.

"Reward" does't necessarily mean "food" - it means whatever your dog likes 

Re: the worry that the dog will only work for treats - no, it won't, as long as you don't confuse "bribery" with reward. If the dog will only do what you want if it can see a treat in your hand (or toy, or whatever) then you have made the behaviour contingent on a reward being visible - not the reward being contingent with the cue being obeyed. Very subtle, but crucial difference and a common mistake/misconception


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## Setter (May 5, 2009)

Colliepoodle said:


> You can train without treats by all means - however if treats are what motivates YOUR dog then that is what will work best. Some dogs are motivated by praise, some by toys. Sometimes what they are motivated by will depend on the circumstances. With my dog, I tend to use treats to teach new things, and then use a toy to increase enthusiasm and "drive" once the behaviour is learnt.
> 
> "Reward" does't necessarily mean "food" - it means whatever your dog likes
> 
> Re: the worry that the dog will only work for treats - no, it won't, as long as you don't confuse "bribery" with reward. If the dog will only do what you want if it can see a treat in your hand (or toy, or whatever) then you have made the behaviour contingent on a reward being visible - not the reward being contingent with the cue being obeyed. Very subtle, but crucial difference and a common mistake/misconception


Thank you and that all makes sense. Gosh this is all lovely but hard work these Pups


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Colliepoodle said:


> You can train without treats by all means - however if treats are what motivates YOUR dog


Food is such a high motivator that any and all dogs are motivated by food though :001_tt2:


Colliepoodle said:


> If the dog will only do what you want if it can see a treat in your hand (or toy, or whatever) then you have made the behaviour contingent on a reward being visible - not the reward being contingent with the cue being obeyed. Very subtle, but crucial difference and a common mistake/misconception


This is very confusing as you can never be 100% certain the dog is acting of its own accord or for the expectation of reward, especially when its a high value reward like food, this is why I just use praise if at all and no tidbits so I know hes following me not his belly 
I agree though that treats should be used wisely and sparingly without doubt - which brings me back to my thoughts on the the video in the other thread, any comments???


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## Colliepoodle (Oct 20, 2008)

james1 said:


> Food is such a high motivator that any and all dogs are motivated by food though :001_tt2:


Not at all. And even if that were true - why would you not use what motivates the dog most? You still seem to have a "thing" against food as a reward, but have admitted you use praise and toys. If that is what turns your dog on most, then great - but not all dogs are the same 



> This is very confusing as you can never be 100% certain the dog is acting of its own accord or for the expectation of reward, especially when its a high value reward like food, this is why I just use praise if at all and no tidbits so I know hes following me not his belly
> I agree though that treats should be used wisely and sparingly without doubt - which brings me back to my thoughts on the the video in the other thread, any comments???


"Acting of its own accord" - dogs do things for two simple reasons. To GET good things, or to AVOID bad things. The notion that a dog does things to please you is a nice one - but sadly outdated and disproved. Again, if your dog works for praise alone then great - but it is acting to GET a good thing just as much as a dog working for a treat or a toy. A dog is not a person. It does not understand the inner workings of your mind; it has no concept of you being "pleased" or not 

Oh and I don't understand what you find confusing about the difference between reward and bribe...

Yes I watched it briefly earlier - and actually I agree with you that it isn't one of her best. She is rather rambly - I feel she could do with writing herself a script and rather than trying to narrate while she trains, could do with either a pre-scripted V.O or words scrolling on the screen.

I'll give a more full reply later - am child-wrangling ATM


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

Tips on no food lead walking on this thread and dicussion of the vid on the other it is then  Getting Bella to stay I think it were


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have trained a lot of dogs, some just as pets and some for obedience and some for working sheep. I have never used titbits, I dont see the point. Praise should be sufficient, and your dog should have a good enough relationship with you that it wants to please you. I too check the lead to make the dog walk correctly. It is not a jerk, if you have the lead just slack then a flexing of your fingers is enough to correct the dog when it moves out of position.
You do have to find what motivates your dog though and if you are struggling to keep its attention with just voice and praise then what is wrong with using titibits or toys or whatever else turns it on.


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

It does take a lot of percieverence but well worth it I think, I love the fact hes willing to take new things on and expects nothing but a good boy or some kind hands. Ive avoided treats completely tbh - to me it just confuses the training programme as far as what it is they expect to do. So glad somebody else uses a similar method - ive been a bit of a loner on this!


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2009)

Buster ignores food outside when on lead (not offlead thankfully lol) so i taught heel by stopping dead when he pulled, when he turned to look at me i walked backwards til he was by my left side (this is the side he walks), then starting forward again. The min he pulls, stop and wait for the look, walk/shuffle backwards til he is in the position.

The first time was more backwards than it was forwards but got there after a while. then the stopping and reversing becomes less and less. 
My first trainer suggested checking and corrections, and this didnt work AT ALL - even when he was just a pup - the trainer got so frustrated by this fact that he proposed a prong collar !!! I soon left that class, and eventually found this way very effective (after alot of trial and error of various methods)


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

lol no doubt you left the classes!! ive done this myself but sort of use a turn to the side so he comes alongside too..... theres so many ways to have them engage but yes the look is essential - he does it now before i send him out which is good as you can then ask them to wait etc


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