# The Government



## Boxer123

Thought I’d start a new thread Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid have resigned. Surely Boris will go now? Who will be next ? Do you think we will have an election ?


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## Deguslave

Personally, I think their resignations will go straight over the top of Bojo's head. He won't understand why they've left and he'll just carry on with 'business as usual.'

I hope that the 1922 committee will change the rules so we don't have to wait another year for a vote of no confidence.

But I can't see much changing unfortunately.


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## 3dogs2cats

Boxer123 said:


> Thought I’d start a new thread Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid have resigned. Surely Boris will go now? Who will be next ? Do you think we will have an election ?


I can't see Johnson holding on for much longer, he is damaging his party, the rules will be changed if he doesn't resign so they can hold another confidence vote. No idea who might be elected as Conservative leader next, obviously both Sunak and Javid would be in the running. The next GE is due in two years so possibly new PM will use that time trying to repair the damage Johnson has caused.


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## Happy Paws2

BJ has got skin like an elephant, it will make no difference to him who goes or stays he still won't go. 

Just hope I'm wrong and he goes sooner rather than later. Tonight or tomorrow would be nice.


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## kimthecat

I doubt if BJ will resign and I dont think there will be another election. Who would take BJs place. Rishi has been mentioned . He's cute but I dont think he's PM material . Hes not ruthless enough.


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## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just hope I'm wrong and he goes sooner rather than later. Tonight or tomorrow would be nice.


A few months ago would have been even better.


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## David C

Boris is to hard faced to resign, he's already doing a reshuffle to replace them so he has no intentions of going under his own steam.


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## kimthecat

I can imagine him singing a line from Simply Reds Holding back the years " I'll keep holdin' on "


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## Mrs Funkin

I don’t think he will go of his own volition. I also think Sunak would have been the natural successor but he damaged himself with his Green Card/non-tax-paying-wife debacle. The Tory MPs missed their chance with the no confidence vote - and let’s be honest who wants to run the country in this state? Not actually sure Starmer even wants a go! We seem to be heading towards an economy in the same condition as in the 80s, with crazy inflation and interest rates flying up.


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## Magyarmum




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## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I doubt if BJ will resign and I dont think there will be another election. Who would take BJs place. Rishi has been mentioned . He's cute but I dont think he's PM material . * Hes not ruthless enough.
> *





Hes not ruthless enough.

No, his a scruffy. self centred, yob. the only thing he thinks about is himself, he couldn't careless about the country.


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## rottieboys

I would hate to be a prime minster. Who would want that job?


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## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> View attachment 574180


Larry can walk out poor Dilyn stuck with him.


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## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> Hes not ruthless enough.
> 
> No, his a scruffy. self centred, yob. the only thing he thinks about is himself, he couldn't careless about the country.


He's behaving like a text book narcissist.


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## Happy Paws2

PM question time today is going to be interesting, to be honest don't how his got the bare faced cheek to turn up.


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## Cleo38

Happy Paws2 said:


> PM question time today is going to be interesting, to be honest don't how his got the bare faced cheek to turn up.


Just listening to bits of it on the Jeremy Vine show. Much as I can't stand Keir Starmer he actually had some quite good one liners .. wonder who wrote them?! 

What a shower of sh*t Boris is, surely he has to resign now


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## rottieboys

To be honest, I think Boris has had a very bad premiership. He went straight into Covid, then he had his critics saying he needs to lock down. People aboard wanted to get home, where other countries had locked down. He managed to get those people home, going to covid hotels. Again, they complained. Labour, did n't want to lock down...How many people would off died if lockdown was not in place. Then there was Brexit, That was another hurdle he had to fought for, even those he was voted to do this in his manifesto. The awful time in Afghanistan, he had to get families out that helped our British soldiers. Then came the critics agains about the private plane that helped those rescue animals. Remainers wanted to get Boris out .All that trouble in Parliament with John Bercow. It never ended. Every day he was criticise. Party gate, yes, party gate was n't that the same as Beer gate.. People voted him in , the people should be able to vote him out. let there be another general election. Getting him out the right way by electoral , not by the press or his back stabbers in parliament. I think he has had a really hard. I voted for him, Yes, I will be sorry to see him go. But not this way.


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## huckybuck

I voted for Boris too and there are a lot of things I don’t like about him. I do think he lies (haven’t we all) and I do think he is stubborn. I do think he believes he knows best.

However I think he does mean well in terms of running the country. I think he does want to get things done. I think he does get things done. I think he works extremely hard to do what he thinks is best for this country.

Whoever was PM and whatever party was in power the media would be out to bring them down. That’s the way our world has become. Criticise everything because of course we know better (esp with hindsight). 

The world is a pretty crap place to be at the moment. Not just in the UK but globally. It’s a never ending battle with one thing and another. To blame the govt for it all is ignorance. To expect the govt to sort everything out is absurd. 

We have become a society where we expect the govt to pay for our living and to a standard that suits us without taking any responsibility ourselves. 

I would love to see someone else in power having to deal with all the crap for a change. But equally I dread it because who knows what they would do ? They have no agenda. They have no ideas. They have no plan. Their only agenda is to sit and pull to pieces the opposition with the help of the media. Really useful. 

Neither will rest til they get Boris out and can then clap their hands with glee at a job well done. Maybe they are almost there. 

Instinct tells me Rishi and Sajid will both put themselves forward for PM if/when the time comes. Not sure who I’ll be voting for yet. We need someone who is passionate and dynamic and tough enough to be able to take all the s***. Someone a bit like Boris!


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## rottieboys

I would never vote for Rishi and Sajid. I never trusted them.


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## Happy Paws2

If BJ stays and we had a snap election, I dread that the same people who voted for the p**t last time, will vote for him again.


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## rottieboys

I personally think if he will wins again, he will get things done this time. Covid , was a big thing. I remember, the food parcels for the vulnerable people. The priority on line shopping given first to the vulnerable. I was so grateful for that. That is without the vaccine which was dished out. Boris did so well for that. People was told to stay home and most got paid for this. 
Boris did some really good things. 
We clapped for every week for the NHS. I had friends who worked in care homes. They said it was really hard work. Boris did it. We cannot blame Boris if things did n't suit us. 
As for party gate. All I saw in the photos were people working together . Sitting out in a garden at least 2 meters apart. Yes, just like me.sitting out the garden . His Birthday party. That was no party in my eyes. As for beer gate. Well how double standard what was the different, some one tell me please..


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## Deguslave

Yes I remember covid.... 
I remember people on uc getting an extra £20 a week, but not if you were on a legacy benefit, we got nothing.
I remember having to fight for a supermarket delivery slot, because I was not classed as vulnerable enough for priority despite not being able to physically walk around a supermarket for well over 4 years now.
I remember no welfare calls for 6 months because, again, I was not classed as vulnerable enough.
And I remember NO HUMAN CONTACT of any sort for the best part of half a year!

Yeah, Bojo did great, but only for some.


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## Siskin

Deguslave said:


> Yes I remember covid....
> I remember people on uc getting an extra £20 a week, but not if you were on a legacy benefit, we got nothing.
> I remember having to fight for a supermarket delivery slot, because I was not classed as vulnerable enough for priority despite not being able to physically walk around a supermarket for well over 4 years now.
> I remember no welfare calls for 6 months because, again, I was not classed as vulnerable enough.
> And I remember NO HUMAN CONTACT of any sort for the best part of half a year!
> 
> Yeah, Bojo did great, but only for some.


I phoned up Tesco’s and explained my issues and they put me onto the vulnerable delivery slot list straight away, same with a friend. did you try this at all?

As they saying goes ‘you can’t please all the people all the time’, no one can and it’s ridiculous to expect that. A section of the the public get something from the government much to their delight only for another section to say it’s not fair we didn’t get it. There is only so much that can be given away, someone somewhere is always going to be disappointed
Ive no idea who would be suitable to take over from Boris if it comes to that, and no I don’t want a snap election, Labour has no credible ideas on what to do about anything, they just spend their entire time moaning about Boris. The Liberals just jump on the nearest bandwagon.


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## Deguslave

@Siskin yep, I contacted Tesco, Morrisons and Sainsbury only to be told that if I wasn't on the government list, there was nothing they could do and I'd have to ask someone to shop for me. Not very helpful if you don't have anyone around to ask.


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## rottieboys

Our neighbours was very good. If we wanted anythings, they would get it and leave on door step. Payment was done by PayPal. They also put flyers out, asking anyone if they need any help. We had face time calls with family. Chats on phone. Sorry, if anyone who did n't get that help.


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## Siskin

Deguslave said:


> @Siskin yep, I contacted Tesco, Morrisons and Sainsbury only to be told that if I wasn't on the government list, there was nothing they could do and I'd have to ask someone to shop for me. Not very helpful if you don't have anyone around to ask.


Odd, at the time I wasn’t on the government list either, that came later, but I was classed as vulnerable.
Did your local council not run any help at all? Ours had help available either to take people or do their shopping for them. Also our village ran a list of people to help others which I used initially. My SIL was a volunteer for shopping duties in her area, there was loads of help about


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## Cleo38

Happy Paws2 said:


> If BJ stays and we had a snap election, I dread that the same people who voted for the p**t last time, will vote for him again.


The problem is that Labour are a bloody joke & despite BJ being so sh*t I still doubt they would win. I would never vote for them with their stance on women


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## Siskin

Cleo38 said:


> The problem is that Labour are a bloody joke & despite BJ being so sh*t I still doubt they would win. I would never vote for them with their stance on women


Neither would I for the same reason and a number of other reasons.


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## Deguslave

Siskin said:


> Odd, at the time I wasn’t on the government list either, that came later, but I was classed as vulnerable.
> Did your local council not run any help at all? Ours had help available either to take people or do their shopping for them. Also our village ran a list of people to help others which I used initially. My SIL was a volunteer for shopping duties in her area, there was loads of help about


My local council are worse than useless, I had one phone call from them in early April 2020, they promised to keep in touch, I didn't hear from them again until the November. They ran food parcels for anyone with kids of school age, but left out everyone else.


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## huckybuck

Siskin said:


> As they saying goes ‘you can’t please all the people all the time’, no one can and it’s ridiculous to expect that. A section of the the public get something from the government much to their delight only for another section to say it’s not fair we didn’t get it. There is only so much that can be given away, someone somewhere is always going to be disappointed.


And the tax payer is the one who pays for it.


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## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Hes not ruthless enough.
> 
> No, his a scruffy. self centred, yob. the only thing he thinks about is himself, he couldn't careless about the country.


I meant Rishi , not Boris.


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## kimthecat

Deguslave said:


> @Siskin yep, I contacted Tesco, Morrisons and Sainsbury only to be told that if I wasn't on the government list, there was nothing they could do and I'd have to ask someone to shop for me. Not very helpful if you don't have anyone around to ask.


Im sorry to hear that , It must have been a nightmare for you. .


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## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> If BJ stays and we had a snap election, I dread that the same people who voted for the p**t last time, will vote for him again.


Well I voted for him, first time I'd ever voted in an election, thought he was worth voting for, I still do in a way.........it's just a shame that he's an overgrown schoolboy  

Thing is, I just cannot imagine any other party in charge at the moment. I was going to vote Labour next time if they'd put someone different to Corbin, but wishy washy Starmer is no good to man nor beast


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## Boxer123

Deguslave said:


> Yes I remember covid....
> I remember people on uc getting an extra £20 a week, but not if you were on a legacy benefit, we got nothing.
> I remember having to fight for a supermarket delivery slot, because I was not classed as vulnerable enough for priority despite not being able to physically walk around a supermarket for well over 4 years now.
> I remember no welfare calls for 6 months because, again, I was not classed as vulnerable enough.
> And I remember NO HUMAN CONTACT of any sort for the best part of half a year!
> 
> Yeah, Bojo did great, but only for some.


And let’s not forget sending infected people back into care homes. The man has blood on his hands. I don’t buy into the poor Boris narrative. Covid hit countries all around the world. Look at how other leaders coped. NZ Prime Minister whilst you may not agree with her choices she clearly cared about her people.

Lying yes everyone tells white lies but for me there is a difference between lying about who ate the last biscuit in the staff room and knowningly employing a sex pest. People have been sexually assaulted and he’s still lying.

I agree Labour are a problem however the Conservatives have lost ground in recent by elections. I don’t think he will win again.


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## Psygon

To a certain extent I'm slightly surprised by the lack of Boris bashing in this thread. 

And before I continue, this is just my opinion on things ...

Regardless of the context (COVID, Brexit, cost of living etc) and what he may or may not have achieved in post he has proven time and again that he has no integrity and just cant be trusted.

I'm not a conservative voter, and yes I'd love to see a labour government who had good ideas to solve all these problems... but right now I don't care which party is running the country, I care that we have a leader who doesn't lie, doesn't promote people who are sexual predators, and who doesn't rip up the ministerial code to suit their own actions. I don't think this is just about the media and others laying into Boris either, this is just how he is. He was like it before he was PM and he's like it now.

I can't believe that yesterday Boris blamed the people who let Chris Pincher drink too much for the actions that Pincher then took, it beggars belief that he thought it was OK to come out with that as a way of trying to dodge responsibility.

I'm pleased to see conservative MPs finally saying enough is enough and resigning and I hope that it makes a difference and we get someone who can rebuild the trust in politics that for me is seriously missing right now. And yeah, I secretly hope that's a labour government - but if it's a conservative government who are intent on doing things right then I won't actually mind. And no I don't know who should lead the conservative party from the cast of people at the top.


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## Deguslave

Boxer123 said:


> And let’s not forget sending infected people back into care homes. The man has blood on his hands. I don’t buy into the poor Boris narrative. Covid hit countries all around the world. Look at how other leaders coped. NZ Prime Minister whilst you may not agree with her choices she clearly cared about her people.
> 
> Lying yes everyone tells white lies but for me there is a difference between lying about who ate the last biscuit in the staff room and knowningly employing a sex pest. People have been sexually assaulted and he’s still lying.
> 
> I agree Labour are a problem however the Conservatives have lost ground in recent by elections. I don’t think he will win again.


From what I remember reading, the Prime Minister of the Isle of Man did a very decent job. Anyone caught flouting the rules were jailed, including a few who decided to travel there by private boat.

I think they faired better than the UK.


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## stuaz

He has survived other scandals including LYING to parliament, and breaking the law. Why would anyone want a man like that in control of the country?

To quote David Davis:



> You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. In the name of God, go.


I believe we are witnessing the final hours/days of Boris Johnson as PM.


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## kimthecat

I dont like boris , he's my MP  I vote Green . Im not sure if we can blame him for the massive cost of living rise due to Covid and Ukraine.
I think another Election would be too disruptive at the moment . If there is an election in a couple of years , I dont think the Tories would win it as i would think a lot of people would just want a change in Government as the Tories have been in charge for a long time.


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## Cleo38




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## kimthecat




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## Psygon

Apologies for language, but this made me laugh.


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## Deguslave

I think this just sums up bojo perfectly. Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Lies


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## Mrs Funkin

I am finding it all a bit "band wagon jumpy" - they had the chance a month ago to get rid of Boris. They didn't take it. Honest to goodness. I just heard the IoW MP saying he gave Boris the benefit of the doubt a month ago - really? You give someone running the country the benefit of the doubt? Shouldn't you be absolutely sure that they should be doing that job? I dunno. I can't say I find the prospect of any politician particularly enticing currently. Starmer isn't strong enough to cash in on this and I suspect the Tories will just get in again. 

I feel no sympathy for Bumbling Boris at all. You know full well what you are letting yourself in for when you go for that job. Yes, it's thankless, but you are setting yourselves up for life - for example it is reported that Tony Blair earns £300k for a short public speaking engagement (less than an hour). I know many ex-PMs don't command that fee but even Nick Clegg (Deputy PM for a while) earns £40k per speech! It's not a bad hourly rate is it, when people live on a tenner an hour salary. Anyway, I digress. 

Is it wrong though that I am laughing at the new Chancellor turning on Boris....but mostly laughing at Gove being sacked. I'm sort of waiting for Hunt to swoop back in...


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## Deguslave

Let's all sing along now.

'And another ones gone, and another ones gone,
Another one bites the dust...'









Simon Hart resigns as Secretary of State for Wales


Mr Hart had earlier been among the cabinet ministers who told Boris Johnson he should listen to the overwhelming view of the Conservative Party and hand in his resignation.




news.sky.com


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## rottieboys

So Boris lied, So did Keir Starmer. He was saying in Parliament yesterday about these sex offenders victims freeze when the perpetrator commit these crimes. How he sympathise with with these poor victims. Rubbish , he lied. Keir Starmer led the CPS when it did not charge Jimmy Savile. As well as the child grooming Asians in Rochester. What about Beer party. He is a hypocrite. Yes, Boris should not appointed Chris pincher. But he was already appointed by Theresa May. I hope they all lose their seats. Traitors the lot of them.


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## JoanneF

I'm not a political debater, I have my views but I have little desire to discuss them.

But this - 


rottieboys said:


> But he was already appointed by Theresa May.


is what I thought.

So can someone explain please why Johnson is getting the blame? What am I missing?


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## Mrs Funkin

I know we all have opinion changes as years go by but I must confess I do find it amusing when the press drag out old opinion pieces/tweets…

I just saw this on twitter and it made me chuckle.

For the record, I’d trust very few of them with anything!


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## Boxer123

JoanneF said:


> I'm not a political debater, I have my views but I have little desire to discuss them.
> 
> But this -
> 
> is what I thought.
> 
> So can someone explain please why Johnson is getting the blame? What am I missing?


Johnson claimed he knew nothing about his history then was caught out that this was another lie.


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## rottieboys

How was he to blame what this man got up to....Perhaps all MP should be tagged to make sure they are not getting up to anything naughty.


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## Boxer123

rottieboys said:


> How was he to blame what this man got up to....Perhaps all MP should be tagged to make sure they are not getting up to anything naughty.


Any employer who discovered someone had a history of sexual misconduct, kept them on and lied about it would be dismissed. It wasn’t something a bit naughty he sexually assaulted two men. 

Do we just shrug and say ‘oh well they are all liars’ or do we demand better from our politicians?


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## Cleo38

*HE'S AGREED TO GO!!!!! *


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## Magyarmum

Cleo38 said:


> *HE'S AGREED TO GO!!!!! *


Beat me to it!


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## rottieboys

Over 50 MPs facing allegations of sexual misconduct in Westminster. They are not all Conservatives. Hope all their bosses will get the criticism like Boris got. 
God help us who we get as PM now.


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## Magyarmum

Boris Johnson agrees to stand down as Prime Minister


Boris Johnson has agreed to step down as Prime Minister according to No 10...




planetradio.co.uk


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## Deguslave

Well to be honest, with so many resignations, he was running out of MPs to form a cabinet with.


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## rona

I do feel sorry for him on a personal level, this was his dream, he's wanted to be Prime Minister since he was a child.
Can you imagine how it feels to have your childhood dream smashed.

I don't know why he was so ill prepared for something he'd spent his life working toward 

He probably thought he would serve longer than Maggie


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## rottieboys

Well, I think the conservatives party will lose at the next election. What they have done to Boris, thats it for me.


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## rottieboys

The weasel Dominic Cummings has won. What a horrible man he is .


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## mrs phas

rona said:


> I do feel sorry for him on a personal level, this was his dream, he's wanted to be Prime Minister since he was a child.
> Can you imagine how it feels to have your childhood dream smashed.


Do you feel sorry for me? My childhood dream was to travel to New Zealand, I've never got to go, my childhood dream is smashed too ?
Or 
Every schoolboy whose childhood dream was to play premier league football ?
Or 
Children and adults, everywhere, who, through circumstances beyond their control, will never attain their childhood dreams?

Boris achieved his childhood dream,
he, because of the Great British publics failure to see him for what he actually is, became prime minister
Then 
He, and only he, by his own hand and lying mouth, fudged it up 
Anyone feeling sorry for him, as a person, a public figurehead or a politician/pm 
Are still 
Impo 
Looking through rose tinted glasses
Still seeing the bumbling man of the people, trying to do his best, whilst just a tad out of his depth, but pulling the rabbit out of the hat at the last-minute 
I don't blame them, he's played the role well, very well
Rather than the spoilt, bullying, lying, old Etonian who has a two year old strop, when told to play nicely, or, no one will play with him 
Who relies on those who elected him, to say 
"oh it's just Boris!😉" 
When he lies in plain sight


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## rona

mrs phas said:


> Do you feel sorry for me? My childhood dream was to travel to New Zealand, I've never got to go, my childhood dream is smashed too ?
> Or
> Every schoolboy whose childhood dream was to play premier league football ?
> Or
> Children and adults, everywhere, who, through circumstances beyond their control, will never attain their childhood dreams?
> 
> Boris achieved his childhood dream,
> he, because of the Great British publics failure to see him for what he actually is, became prime minister
> Then
> He, and only he, by his own hand and lying mouth, fudged it up
> Anyone feeling sorry for him, as a person, a public figurehead or a politician/pm
> Are still
> Impo
> Looking through rose tinted glasses
> Still seeing the bumbling man of the people, trying to do his best, whilst just a tad out of his depth, but pulling the rabbit out of the hat at the last-minute
> I don't blame them, he's played the role well, very well
> Rather than the spoilt, bullying, lying, old Etonian who has a two year old strop, when told to play nicely, or, no one will play with him
> Who relies on those who elected him, to say
> "oh it's just Boris!😉"
> When he lies in plain sight


Having dream and not attaining it is very different from having it and then having it taken away.

Maybe I've known too many people like Boris, they weren't bad people, but because of their privileged upbringing, their views were very blinkered and they had an air of superiority. I felt sorry for those poor little rich boys too ................they probably felt sorry for me


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## rona

rottieboys said:


> Well, I think the conservatives party will lose at the next election. What they have done to Boris, thats it for me.


Yep.........It's the people behind him that have let him down.

I reckon they've been working him like a puppet. Most of the issues have arisen by him covering someone elses back


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## Deguslave

rona said:


> I do feel sorry for him on a personal level, this was his dream, he's wanted to be Prime Minister since he was a child.
> Can you imagine how it feels to have your childhood dream smashed.
> 
> I don't know why he was so ill prepared for something he'd spent his life working toward
> 
> He probably thought he would serve longer than Maggie


He achieved his dream, he WAS prime minister, and then he went and completely stuffed it up!


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## rottieboys

mrs phas said:


> Do you feel sorry for me? My childhood dream was to travel to New Zealand, I've never got to go, my childhood dream is smashed too ?
> Or
> Every schoolboy whose childhood dream was to play premier league football ?
> Or
> Children and adults, everywhere, who, through circumstances beyond their control, will never attain their childhood dreams?
> 
> Boris achieved his childhood dream,
> he, because of the Great British publics failure to see him for what he actually is, became prime minister
> Then
> He, and only he, by his own hand and lying mouth, fudged it up
> Anyone feeling sorry for him, as a person, a public figurehead or a politician/pm
> Are still
> Impo
> Looking through rose tinted glasses
> Still seeing the bumbling man of the people, trying to do his best, whilst just a tad out of his depth, but pulling the rabbit out of the hat at the last-minute
> I don't blame them, he's played the role well, very well
> Rather than the spoilt, bullying, lying, old Etonian who has a two year old strop, when told to play nicely, or, no one will play with him
> Who relies on those who elected him, to say
> "oh it's just Boris!😉"
> When he lies in plain sight


Was it Boris fault that you never got your childhood dream. Jacinda Ardern locked down her country for everyone. Mind you it is open now. School boys can always try and get their dreams to become true. So all this was because of Boris was it?
There was an awful lot of us who voted and supported Boris. I understand if you were a remainer, but we all have a vote on this. Brexit won. Partygate, Yeah what has happened about Beer gate. As I said in my previous post, Stammer told lied as well. I wish him well.


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## Cleo38

rona said:


> I do feel sorry for him on a personal level, this was his dream, he's wanted to be Prime Minister since he was a child.
> Can you imagine how it feels to have your childhood dream smashed.
> 
> I don't know why he was so ill prepared for something he'd spent his life working toward
> 
> He probably thought he would serve longer than Maggie


Wow, really? He f*cked it for himself tho with his constant lying. If that really was his dream (& I wonder oif it was just really to do with his enormous ego) then why behave so appallingly? 

Personally I don't feel sorry for him at all tbh. I would never forgive him for all the parties at Downing Street & the cover ups when it was made public. During that time many people had relatives who died without their family present because of the rules the government imposed but never followed themselves. Those of us who suffered this will probably be haunted by that for the rest of our lives


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## rona

Cleo38 said:


> Wow, really? He f*cked it for himself tho with his constant lying. If that really was his dream (& I wonder oif it was just really to do with his enormous ego) then why behave so appallingly?
> 
> Personally I don't feel sorry for him at all tbh. I would never forgive him for all the parties at Downing Street & the cover ups when it was made public. During that time many people had relatives who died without their family present because of the rules the government imposed but never followed themselves. Those of us who suffered this will probably be haunted by that for the rest of our lives



Um............I had to care for my dying friend though it all...........Those off us that suffered Mmmm


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## Deguslave

Cleo38 said:


> Wow, really? He f*cked it for himself tho with his constant lying. If that really was his dream (& I wonder oif it was just really to do with his enormous ego) then why behave so appallingly?
> 
> Personally I don't feel sorry for him at all tbh. I would never forgive him for all the parties at Downing Street & the cover ups when it was made public. During that time many people had relatives who died without their family present because of the rules the government imposed but never followed themselves. Those of us who suffered this will probably be haunted by that for the rest of our lives


Or the people who lost their loved ones when covid positive patients were moved into their covid free care homes.


----------



## rottieboys

Cleo38 said:


> Wow, really? He f*cked it for himself tho with his constant lying. If that really was his dream (& I wonder oif it was just really to do with his enormous ego) then why behave so appallingly?
> 
> Personally I don't feel sorry for him at all tbh. I would never forgive him for all the parties at Downing Street & the cover ups when it was made public. During that time many people had relatives who died without their family present because of the rules the government imposed but never followed themselves. Those of us who suffered this will probably be haunted by that for the rest of our lives


I do not understand about these parties. They all worked in his bubble. They worked at No 10 so they would be together, The photo out in the garden is nothing. My friends who worked throughout the covid at the care home after they did their work duties and having a break. Also sat outside the garden having cold drinks etc. What was the different? I do agree he never passed many laws. Yes, I am sorry he went.


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> Um............I had to care for my dying friend though it all...........Those off us that suffered Mmmm


Amnot sure what you mean by that tbh. Many people suffered. My mum died &we couldn't be with her, it was awful & I will never forgive myself even tho I couldn't do anything. My friend wasn't allowed to be with her mum who was in a care home, the last time she saw her mum at the window of the home her mum was crying & begging her to take her away ... & Boris & his cronies lied & treatedus all like f*ckwits


----------



## Cleo38

Duplicate post


----------



## rottieboys

Cleo38 said:


> Amnot sure what you mean by that tbh. Many people suffered. My mum died &we couldn't be with her, it was awful & I will never forgive myself even tho I couldn't do anything. My friend wasn't allowed to be with her mum who was in a care home, the last time she saw her mum at the window of the home her mum was crying & begging her to take her away ... & Boris & his cronies lied & treatedus all like f*ckwits


That was awful. I remember reading about a young lad who parents had to watch him go into hospital doors waving goodbye, for a routine operation. He died and they wasn't there at his bedside because of covid. How do you get over that. The care home where my friends worked lost 4 patients. Unbearable for families. Was that Boris 's fault. No it was Covid.


----------



## Deguslave

rottieboys said:


> That was awful. I remember reading about a young lad who parents had to watch him go into hospital doors waving goodbye, for a routine operation. He died and they wasn't there at his bedside because of covid. How do you get over that. The care home where my friends worked lost 4 patients. Unbearable for families. Was that Boris 's fault. No it was Covid.


But while all of that was going on, they were partying! They were not only not following the laws THEY put in place, they were laughing at the ones who did follow the rules!


----------



## Cleo38

rottieboys said:


> That was awful. I remember reading about a young lad who parents had to watch him go into hospital doors waving goodbye, for a routine operation. He died and they wasn't there at his bedside because of covid. How do you get over that. The care home where my friends worked lost 4 patients. Unbearable for families. Was that Boris 's fault. No it was Covid.


Boris & his government made rules, they then flouted them. So many mistakes were made by his government regarding moving & management of pateients to care homes which resulted in many deaths ..... that is due to failing by the government which ultimately is the fault of Boris

They were ruled as being culpable by the High Court 









UK government failed to protect care home residents from COVID, High Court rules


In early stages of pandemic, government claimed to have put ‘protective ring’ around elderly and vulnerable people.




www.politico.eu


----------



## rottieboys

Deguslave said:


> But while all of that was going on, they were partying! They were not only not following the laws THEY put in place, they were laughing at the ones who did follow the rules!


He was fined for one of these party gate, he was n't there when others were having a get together. He did not know about his birthday cake that was organises for him. Again, these people all worked together. What about Beer gate?


----------



## Deguslave

The buck has to stop with the person in charge. Please read the Gray report into partygate. As for beergate, that's still under investigation by the police, there's no outcome on that yet.


----------



## Boxer123

Deguslave said:


> The buck has to stop with the person in charge. Please read the Gray report into partygate. As for beergate, that's still under investigation by the police, there's no outcome on that yet.


Yep we need a leader who can lead. I’m sorry about your mum @Cleo38 I think they are a disgrace. 
We still have theConservative government who aim to make the rich richer and the poor poorer but today I will take as a small win.


----------



## stuaz

rottieboys said:


> The weasel Dominic Cummings has won. What a horrible man he is .


Boris only has himself to blame.


----------



## mrs phas

rottieboys said:


> Was it Boris fault that you never got your childhood dream


Talk about miss the point🙄
Boris got his childhood dream
and
He, and only he lost it
By
Lieing, breaking his own rules, covering up for his chums, being incompetent (seeing as you brought it up, had he had the cojones to shut UK, as prime minister of NZ did, there wouldn't have been such a catastrophic death toll, but can't undo what's been done) bullying within his own party, bullish attitude and to high and mighty to apologise, even his resignation speech was full of party downfalls, no apology for his own
So yes
Boris may like to lane everyone else
but
The buck stops with him alone
Had they had confidence in his leadership as party leader and PM
They wouldn't all have turned into lemmings. 

* Please don't presume you know how I feel/felt about Brexit 
Not only is this not the thread to hijack me with that presumption 
But 
My politics are exactly that, mine


----------



## rona

Cleo38 said:


> Amnot sure what you mean by that tbh. Many people suffered. My mum died &we couldn't be with her, it was awful & I will never forgive myself even tho I couldn't do anything. My friend wasn't allowed to be with her mum who was in a care home, the last time she saw her mum at the window of the home her mum was crying & begging her to take her away ... & Boris & his cronies lied & treatedus all like f*ckwits


All I meant was you weren't the only one going through it. I just cannot understand why you blame one person for everything that happened during Covid. He was ill too don't forget, probably why the mice did play!

I did see my friend right up to the end and wish I hadn't had too


----------



## rona

stuaz said:


> Boris only has himself to blame.


That I can agree with. Though not because of the reasons put forward here


----------



## ForestWomble

rona said:


> Can you imagine how it feels to have your childhood dream smashed.


Yes, I can.


----------



## Boxer123

He has lived a charmed life that most of us couldn’t even dream about. He’s had the opportunity to be a good PM. Previously fired for lying from 2 jobs but still had the opportunity to be PM. I’ll save my sympathy for those who can’t afford to feed their families or heat their home this year.


----------



## rottieboys

mrs phas said:


> Talk about miss the point🙄
> Boris got his childhood dream
> and
> He, and only he lost it
> By
> Lieing, breaking his own rules, covering up for his chums, being incompetent (seeing as you brought it up, had he had the cojones to shut UK, as prime minister of NZ did, there wouldn't have been such a catastrophic death toll, but can't undo what's been done) bullying within his own party, bullish attitude and to high and mighty to apologise, even his resignation speech was full of party downfalls, no apology for his own
> So yes
> Boris may like to lane everyone else
> but
> The buck stops with him alone
> Had they had confidence in his leadership as party leader and PM
> They wouldn't all have turned into lemmings.
> 
> * Please don't presume you know how I feel/felt about Brexit
> Not only is this not the thread to hijack me with that presumption
> But
> My politics are exactly that, mine


A dream is a chance to experience something you might not get in life. So your saying Boris got his dream. Yes he did. He still won the votes of the people. Actually, quite a lot of people. Your are right he made mistakes, by being loyal to his colleagues. That is where he went wrong. Those colleagues put the knife in. Plus the ones who did n't like him from the start. Just waiting to take photos when they thought he is doing wrong. Handed to the Daily Mirror. We got him now. chreep.


----------



## rona

If that Hunt man become PM you'll all be rueing the day that Boris left


----------



## rona

ForestWomble said:


> Yes, I can.


Oh that's a shame...............


----------



## rottieboys

rona said:


> If that Hunt man become PM you'll all be rueing the day that Boris left


Yes you are right about that.


----------



## Psygon

I still find this defence of Boris weird... we, the electorate, should expect our leaders to uphold the values set out to them in the ministerial code. We should expect them to do so in way that means we trust their decision making and that we know that they are doing things to make this country better, to make the lives of the people better. When ministers are not upholding these standards then they are not fit for office - regardless if it is their dream or not. And again this isn't me hoping we will get a labour government this is me saying we should expect better from person who leads this country. As a reminder the code is below - and if you can honestly and truthfully say that Boris has been meeting this code then I think that is bizarre. Any MP found not meeting this code should resign.

Full code here:https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmcode/1882/188201.htm

Extract from the intro:

In carrying out their parliamentary and public duties, Members will be expected to observe the following general principles of conduct identified by the Committee on Standards in Public Life in its First Report as applying to holders of public office.1 These principles will be taken into account when considering the investigation and determination of any allegations of breaches of the rules of conduct in Part V of the Code.

*Selflessness*
Holders of public office should take decisions solely in terms of the public interest. They should not do so in order to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends.

*Integrity*
Holders of public office should not place themselves under any financial or other obligation to outside individuals or organisations that might influence them in the performance of their official duties.

*Objectivity*
In carrying out public business, including making public appointments, awarding contracts, or recommending individuals for rewards and benefits, holders of public office should make choices on merit.

*Accountability*
Holders of public office are accountable for their decisions and actions to the public and must submit themselves to whatever scrutiny is appropriate to their office.

*Openness*
Holders of public office should be as open as possible about all the decisions and actions that they take. They should give reasons for their decisions and restrict information only when the wider public interest clearly demands.

*Honesty*
Holders of public office have a duty to declare any private interests relating to their public duties and to take steps to resolve any conflicts arising in a way that protects the public interest.

*Leadership*
Holders of public office should promote and support these principles by leadership and example.


----------



## rona

I agree, that means half the cabinet should be held to account, not just Boris 


Psygon said:


> we, the electorate, should expect our leaders to uphold the values set out to them in the ministerial code. We should expect them to do so in way that means we trust their decision making and that we know that they are doing things to make this country better, to make the lives of the people better. When ministers are not upholding these standards then they are not fit for office


----------



## Psygon

rona said:


> I agree, that means half the cabinet should be held to account, not just Boris


I agree with that too. I'd hope that any new leader would make it a priority to bring back holding our MPs to account for their behaviour and not bury reports or refuse to act on them. I'll just have to hope that happens.

I also hope that if the whole beer gate thing comes back and Starmer and Raynor are fined they do what they said they would and step aside too. 

I really want to be able to trust our politicians to be doing the right thing for us.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> I agree with that too. I'd hope that any new leader would make it a priority to bring back holding our MPs to account for their behaviour and not bury reports or refuse to act on them. I'll just have to hope that happens.
> 
> I also hope that if the whole beer gate thing comes back and Starmer and Raynor are fined they do what they said they would and step aside too.
> 
> I really want to be able to trust our politicians to be doing the right thing for us.


I agree with everything you said there.


----------



## huckybuck

I pity the next PM. 
As Plato said perfection only lives in the realm of thought.


----------



## Cleo38

rona said:


> All I meant was you weren't the only one going through it. I just cannot understand why you blame one person for everything that happened during Covid. He was ill too don't forget, probably why the mice did play!
> 
> I did see my friend right up to the end and wish I hadn't had too


Of course I wasn't, why would you say that? I blame one person because he was in charge of the country, it;s not as if it's some random person I am blaming 

You may not have wanted to be with your friend until the end but you had a choice. I & many others didn't have that & it will haunt us. I wouldn't have thought as being with my mum as she died as something I had to do but wanted to as I would do with anyone I loved


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> I pity the next PM.
> As Plato said perfection only lives in the realm of thought.


He did say that, but he also said that the best people to rule us are people that can understand that realm of perfection - and are able to understand the true form of goodness. And that because they understand what it is they are able to rule in a moral and ethical* way... which from my understanding of what's happening in politics right now isn't what we've had leading the country. 

And to Rona's point, maybe we've not really had in other members of the cabinet too.

(as an aside, aware that ethics is one of those things that polarises, people have different views on what is and isn't ethical and we all have personal ethics).


----------



## Snoringbear

Johnson's tenure, performance and behaviour reminds me of a quote attributed to Mahatma Ghandi:

“If there is a idiot in power; it is because those who elected him are well represented.”


----------



## Magyarmum

Snoringbear said:


> Johnson's tenure, performance and behaviour reminds me of a quote attributed to Mahatma Ghandi:
> 
> “If there is a idiot in power; it is because those who elected him are well represented.”


Nice to see you back!


----------



## rona

You must be young 


Psygon said:


> I really want to be able to trust our politicians to be doing the right thing for us.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Cleo38 said:


> *HE'S AGREED TO GO!!!!! *


----------



## huckybuck

Psygon said:


> He did say that, but he also said that the best people to rule us are people that can understand that realm of perfection - and are able to understand the true form of goodness. And that because they understand what it is they are able to rule in a moral and ethical* way... which from my understanding of what's happening in politics right now isn't what we've had leading the country.
> 
> And to Rona's point, maybe we've not really had in other members of the cabinet too.
> 
> (as an aside, aware that ethics is one of those things that polarises, people have different views on what is and isn't ethical and we all have personal ethics).


In an idealistic world they are certainly the best people to do it. In a realistic world do these people actually exist? 

The way this world is going there won’t be anyone “allowed” to enter politics at all. Unless you count God perhaps.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


>


Please, How did you survive during the lock down. Was n't it good having those food parcels. Vaccine and letters from Boris saying you will get priority. NHS was brilliant.I could not fault him with covid.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> In an idealistic world they are certainly the best people to do it. In a realistic world do these people actually exist?
> 
> The way this world is going there won’t be anyone “allowed” to enter politics at all. Unless you count God perhaps.


hah maybe that's true   Would make elections super simple


----------



## Boxer123

huckybuck said:


> I pity the next PM.
> As Plato said perfection only lives in the realm of thought.


No one is saying they have to be perfect but Boris has been a car crash lie after lie. Why shouldn’t we strive for better from our leaders ? Instead of simply shrugging that this is they way it’s always been. On the ground families are struggling, parents of disabled children are having to fight for basic support, people on low wages are in food banks. The tories will never tax the rich more and yet it’s a simply answer. 

We could simply shrug because it doesn’t effect us or ask for change so I wont stop writing to my MP asking for better.


----------



## huckybuck

Why should the Tories tax the rich more? You mean tax those who are already paying the most tax? That’s sounds fair in this idealistic world NOT. 

Everyone should be taxed inc those who are given benefits. Get used to contributing for the services people seem to expect for nothing - schools, housing, health care…

And why should the tax payer have to pay for other people‘s kids? Having a child costs a lot of money. People should take more responsibility about whether they can afford to have them not say it’s my right and then expect the govt to pay for them.


----------



## Psygon

rona said:


> You must be young


Not especially young no... idealistic maybe. I believe I know what good looks like, doesn't mean that that's ever happened tho!


----------



## huckybuck

New candidate for PM.


----------



## rottieboys

I wonder how our grandparents survived. No child allowance. Not much help from the government. My dear old grand mother had to go out cleaning houses and ironing. Never had much money going to jumble sales to get clothes. and of course the provident man would come round to collect some money, after she got some sheets and things she needed. As soon as she paid him, she could get other things on the never never as it was call. Things were very hard them, she made oxtail soup which would last days. Not much in it, the taste was lovely. Different times I guess.


----------



## rottieboys

huckybuck said:


> Why should the Tories tax the rich more? You mean tax those who are already paying the most tax? That’s sounds fair in this idealistic world NOT.
> 
> Everyone should be taxed inc those who are given benefits. Get used to contributing for the services people seem to expect for nothing - schools, housing, health care…
> 
> And why should the tax payer have to pay for other people‘s kids? Having a child costs a lot of money. People should take more responsibility about whether they can afford to have them not say it’s my right and then expect the govt to pay for them.


Well said.


----------



## rottieboys

huckybuck said:


> View attachment 574262
> 
> 
> New candidate for PM.





huckybuck said:


> View attachment 574262
> 
> 
> New candidate for PM.


Lovely photo, beautiful cat. Yes, I would vote .


----------



## Boxer123

Oh my goodness I can’t even answer properly. The rich have many loopholes so they do not pay tax. People do work they work hard but the minimum wage is not a in line with inflation. Even those above minimum wage struggle.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> Why should the Tories tax the rich more? You mean tax those who are already paying the most tax? That’s sounds fair in this idealistic world NOT.
> 
> Everyone should be taxed inc those who are given benefits. Get used to contributing for the services people seem to expect for nothing - schools, housing, health care…
> 
> And why should the tax payer have to pay for other people‘s kids? Having a child costs a lot of money. People should take more responsibility about whether they can afford to have them not say it’s my right and then expect the govt to pay for them.


The tax system in this country isn't particularly fair. While yes a significant percentage of the tax generated comes from the wealthiest individuals, where it starts to look unfair is when you look at what percentage of their income goes on tax. Generally speaking those with higher incomes spend a smaller percentage of their income on tax. This tax burden also has an impact when looking at things like council tax, where the way the system works means you get crazy situations where people living in mansions pay less council tax than someone living in a bungalow. I know council tax and income tax are vastly different but it does make the whole tax thing look unfair.

There is also a fairness thing in those with money can afford the advice that helps them keep their money, those with no money can't. 

In terms of benefits etc I do think it's worth saying that the majority of people who need services such as benefits, housing, health care don't expect them, in fact a lot are embarrassed to need them.


----------



## Cleo38

rottieboys said:


> Please, How did you survive during the lock down. Was n't it good having those food parcels. Vaccine and letters from Boris saying you will get priority. NHS was brilliant.I could not fault him with covid.


Alot of people survived through the good will of their neighbours not through help from the gocernment.
The elderly especially were forgotten about & it was heartbreaking hearing how desperate some people were during that period.


----------



## huckybuck

Boxer123 said:


> Oh my goodness I can’t even answer properly. The rich have many loopholes so they do not pay tax.


I don’t know of any rich person resident in this country who doesn’t pay tax. But I know plenty of people earning money (gardeners, cleaners, hairdressers) who aren’t declaring their income and therefore not paying tax!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Markets happy! So which candidate likes cats? Thinking of Larry…🤣


----------



## huckybuck

Psygon said:


> The tax system in this country isn't particularly fair. While yes a significant percentage of the tax generated comes from the wealthiest individuals, where it starts to look unfair is when you look at what percentage of their income goes on tax. Generally speaking those with higher incomes spend a smaller percentage of their income on tax. This tax burden also has an impact when looking at things like council tax, where the way the system works means you get crazy situations where people living in mansions pay less council tax than someone living in a bungalow. I know council tax and income tax are vastly different but it does make the whole tax thing look unfair.
> 
> There is also a fairness thing in those with money can afford the advice that helps them keep their money, those with no money can't.
> 
> In terms of benefits etc I do think it's worth saying that the majority of people who need services such as benefits, housing, health care don't expect them, in fact a lot are embarrassed to need them.


I think what a lot of people forget is that those wealthiest individuals who are paying income tax at a higher rate are often the same people who are paying business/corporation tax too.


----------



## huckybuck

Another candidate…










“I’m always up for a party!!”


----------



## rottieboys

I remember watching a program on telly about two families. The mothers had to swapped families for a week. Mum A went to live with this family that did not work. The husband did nothing. Mum B went to live with this other family, where they had to worked very hard. The husband had 2 jobs, going out early coming home just after the kids were in bed. The mother also worked very hard as well. I think it was an outcry. The ones who did not work was getting more on benefit, then the family who was working all hours. This should not be.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> I remember watching a program on telly about two families. The mothers had to swapped families for a week. Mum A went to live with this family that did not work. The husband did nothing. Mum B went to live with this other family, where they had to worked very hard. The husband had 2 jobs, going out early coming home just after the kids were in bed. The mother also worked very hard as well. I think it was an outcry. The ones who did not work was getting more on benefit, then the family who was working all hours. This should not be.


I don't think she really represented the vast majority of people claiming benefits in this country. That was also on TV maybe 15 years ago? So not sure if it really shows a true picture of benefit claimants.

Something like 55% of families in this country claim benefits of some kind. The vast majority of those are claiming their state pension (12 million or so people). Quite a few of our benefits require you to already be working to receive them, and they help top up low incomes (something like 5.5 million people claim universal credit, about a third of that figure are in the category of looking for work). Less than 4% of benefit payments are fraudulent. 

Like in any system there will be people that play it to their own benefit. Since we were talking about high income tax payers .. in the top 1% of high earners there are vast differences in how much each of them pay. Some are paying the full 45%, some substantially less. They are playing that system to their advantage.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Please, How did you survive during the lock down. Was n't it good having those food parcels. Vaccine and letters from Boris saying you will get priority. NHS was brilliant.I could not fault him with covid.


I don't think that was just BJ idea, I'll give the vaccine programme but again it wasn't just his idea, there were a lot of people working behind these decisions.

As for food parcels we only had them of about 2 weeks then got in touch with the Birmingham council and refused them.

The NHS were brilliant no thanks to him.

And we weren't partying while people were dying.


----------



## Deguslave

I claim benefits, I worked all my able life, even dragging myself to work when I should have been at home ill. Now I'm unable to work due to disabilities, I'm unable to have a normal life because I spend most of my time in pain. I can't walk without crutches and with crutches I can't go more than a few steps before the pain kicks in. Then I'm unable to do much more than the basics for days afterwards and then I have to go carefully and slowly to avoid delaying what recovery I get.

Not everyone on benefits has an option and I had to go through a lengthy and quite humiliating process, including an assessment, to qualify.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think that was just BJ idea, I'll give the vaccine programme but again it wasn't just his idea, there were a lot of people working behind these decisions.
> 
> As for food parcels we only had them of about 2 weeks then got in touch with the Birmingham council and refused them.
> 
> The NHS were brilliant no thanks to him.
> 
> And we weren't partying while people were dying.


Yes, there were many people behind it. But he had to sign it off. Group of friends inside a bubble working, having a drink . Is that a party.It was not his fault people were dying. As soon as it it our shores we had it. Boris and the science professors got things going. We were the first to get a vaccine. Boris did very well , you can n't say he did n't. Are you saying he had nothing to do with it, getting extra beds ready. O2 had to make room for more bed. We were really shaken up with covid. None of us were expecting how many people were going to be infected by it, and dying. But he managed to turn this round. I am sad he has gone. That is my opinion, might not be for everyone.


----------



## kimthecat

I know Chris Pincher resigned as Whip but is he still an MP ?


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> I know Chris Pincher resigned as Whip but is he still an MP ?


Yes 😬


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Yes, there were many people behind it. But he had to sign it off. Group of friends inside a bubble working, having a drink . Is that a party.It was not his fault people were dying. As soon as it it our shores we had it. Boris and the science professors got things going. We were the first to get a vaccine. Boris did very well , you can n't say he did n't. Are you saying he had nothing to do with it, getting extra beds ready. O2 had to make room for more bed. We were really shaken up with covid. None of us were expecting how many people were going to be infected by it, and dying. But he managed to turn this round. I am sad he has gone. That is my opinion, might not be for everyone.


As far as Covid is concerned he was just a mouth piece for the experts who were making the decisions.


----------



## rottieboys

Deguslave said:


> I claim benefits, I worked all my able life, even dragging myself to work when I should have been at home ill. Now I'm unable to work due to disabilities, I'm unable to have a normal life because I spend most of my time in pain. I can't walk without crutches and with crutches I can't go more than a few steps before the pain kicks in. Then I'm unable to do much more than the basics for days afterwards and then I have to go carefully and slowly to avoid delaying what recovery I get.
> 
> Not everyone on benefits has an option and I had to go through a lengthy and quite humiliating process, including an assessment, to qualify.


I am really sorry to hear this. My husband has had bad health since 2008. It has got worst over the years. I know only too well about these assessment. It is like begging for help , when you have Paid your way. It is a very unfair systems. Your right about humiliating, I went with him for the last one. My god, the lady who was assessing my husband's condition did n't even look at any medical letters. She got him to walk a few steps, she could see he was unsteady on his feet. The letter we got a few weeks later telling us we were unsuccessful in claiming disability. Well, we went to our GP and let her see the letter. She worked wonder. Sent then her opinion on my husband condition and disputed their claim. It worked. But you are right about humiliating process.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> Yes 😬


He should go to jail. Disgusting. person.


----------



## JoanneF

Happy Paws2 said:


> As far as Covid is concerned he was just a mouth piece for the experts who were making the decisions.


So are you saying he isn't actually to blame? He was following expert advice?

And, if you can't be advised by experts, where does that leave any of us?


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Group of friends inside a bubble working, having a drink . Is that a party.It was not his fault people were dying.


Did you read the Sue Grey report that looked at all these groups of friends inside a bubble having a drink while working?

While I appreciate that Boris wasn’t necessarily implicated in every event the mountain of evidence in that report clearly showed this was well beyond a group of friends in a bubble having a drink.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> He should go to jail. Disgusting. person.


I think even more evidence has come out today, so hopefully something will be done.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> As far as Covid is concerned he was just a mouth piece for the experts who were making the decisions.


Well of course he did, did you think he had to become an expert all of a sudden. Experts are used everywhere in order to facilitate decision making. The courts use expert witnesses all the time in order for the jury to understand the issue. I would have been far more worried if Boris had made decisions without an expert to guide him.


----------



## kimthecat

Psygon said:


> Yes 😬


Flipping heck.  I hope his constituents can get rid of him.


----------



## OrientalSlave

By his former boss Max Hastings:









I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister | Max Hastings


The Tory party is about to foist a tasteless joke upon the British people. He cares for nothing but his own fame and gratification, says the former editor of the Daily Telegraph Max Hastings




www.theguardian.com


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> By his former boss Max Hastings:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was Boris Johnson’s boss: he is utterly unfit to be prime minister | Max Hastings
> 
> 
> The Tory party is about to foist a tasteless joke upon the British people. He cares for nothing but his own fame and gratification, says the former editor of the Daily Telegraph Max Hastings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


 That's said it all former boss.??


----------



## rottieboys

Just looked this man up. He supported the Labour Party then the Conservative. He also said Gordon Brown as wholly psychologically unfit to be a Prime Minister.
Worked at The Guardian , BBC . I think after reading about him. He does n't sound like a nice man. They will all be coming out of the woodwork now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Siskin said:


> Well of course he did, did you think he had to become an expert all of a sudden. Experts are used everywhere in order to facilitate decision making. The courts use expert witnesses all the time in order for the jury to understand the issue. I would have been far more worried if Boris had made decisions without an expert to guide him.


He may have taken advise over covid but I had no choice with the experts been on TV all the time, but as for anything else he seems to have gone his own way and taken no notice of what his been told.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> That's said it all former boss.??


Yes, he sacked BJ for lying


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> Just looked this man up. He supported the Labour Party then the Conservative. He also said Gordon Brown as wholly psychologically unfit to be a Prime Minister.
> Worked at The Guardian , BBC . I think after reading about him. He does n't sound like a nice man. They will all be coming out of the woodwork now.


I take it you mean Max Hastings. And I'd say he was right about Gordon Brown. Not sure why you think he's 'not a nice man'.


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> I take it you mean Max Hastings. And I'd say he was right about Gordon Brown. Not sure why you think he's 'not a nice man'.


I said that because he seem to change like the wind with his politic. He might have sack Boris for lying and other things. But who in journalist does n't lie. Piers Morgan, Toney Blair He was a PM. I think most journalists lie to sell their papers. He is doing it now. Making headlines. It will go on and on.


----------



## Jesthar

rottieboys said:


> Just looked this man up. He supported the Labour Party then the Conservative. He also said Gordon Brown as wholly psychologically unfit to be a Prime Minister.
> Worked at The Guardian , BBC . I think after reading about him. He does n't sound like a nice man. They will all be coming out of the woodwork now.


Well, I'd say he was right about Gordon Brown. Looks pretty accurate about BoJo too. I used to know people who knew BoJo, and they were all 'dont be fooled by the 'loveable buffoon' act, he's extremely clever, very manipulative, and as ruthless and self centred as they come.'

And people are entitled to change which political party they support if the one they currently support no longer matches their political views. I used to vote conservative, but no longer do and don#t see myself ever voting conservative again as things stand, as the conservatives (especially the local MP) no longer represent anything I want to vote for.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> I said that because he seem to change like the wind with his politic. He might have sack Boris for lying and other things. But who in journalist does n't lie. Piers Morgan, Toney Blair He was a PM. I think most journalists lie to sell their papers. He is doing it now. Making headlines. It will go on and on.


The people who were responsible for the current majority changed their minds. If no-one every changed their minds we would have the same government for all time. And there are lies and lies. He has lied about a sex pest being appointed to a senior position. And either Teresa Coffey lied when she said 'he was not aware of any allegations against Chris Pincher' or BJ made sure she wasn't told.

Maybe that's why journalists should stay out of politics - because they lie.


----------



## Deguslave

I'm a floating voter, I don't pledge allegiance to any political party. My vote can change with each election be it local or national. It doesn't make me a bad person, or flakey, it means that I weigh up what each candidate is offering a make an informed decision.


----------



## Dimwit

rona said:


> Yep.........It's the people behind him that have let him down.
> 
> I reckon they've been working him like a puppet. Most of the issues have arisen by him covering someone elses back


Wow, really?

he us nobody’s puppet. All of this mess is of his own creation. He has consistently lied, lied about lying and forced other people to lie for him. 
He risked national security by meeting Lebedev in secret and then lied about it. 
His bumbling persona is carefully crafted to win public sympathy. It has been clear from a young age that he us an entitled brat with no sense of shame and who arrogantly thought that being PM was his birthright. He then found himself in a job which he had no intention of doing properly and his actions and his alone have brought this country to the state it’s in.
We have one of the worst covid death rates in the world and he carried on partying while hundreds of thousands died unnecessarily and alone.
He ‘got brexit done’ trashing our economy and links with Europe and then risked destabilising the political situation in NI because he never intended to actually stick to the agreement he signed.
He had to be shamed into feeding the poorest children by a footballer while he asked his Tory donors to build a 150K treehouse for his son.
He doesn’t care about the country, the voters it anyone but himself. The country is in crisis and all his and his cabinets efforts have been focussed on lying and covering up for him to keep him in his job rather than actually running the country.


----------



## Deguslave

Just to put an end to the 'but what about beergate and Starmer' argument...









Sir Keir Starmer cleared by police over Durham lockdown beers


The Labour leader says he would have quit if he had been fined as a "matter of principle".



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Happy Paws2

Deguslave said:


> Just to put an end to the 'but what about beergate and Starmer' argument...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir Keir Starmer cleared by police over Durham lockdown beers
> 
> 
> The Labour leader says he would have quit if he had been fined as a "matter of principle".
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk



I never thought they were guilty, it was nothing like the parties at No.10.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Deguslave said:


> Just to put an end to the 'but what about beergate and Starmer' argument...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir Keir Starmer cleared by police over Durham lockdown beers
> 
> 
> The Labour leader says he would have quit if he had been fined as a "matter of principle".
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk


It was deemed a “work event”.

However, as I understand it, they had finished working then stayed on to consume pre arranged beer and curry …..

They could have just gone home, rather than stay on and socialise.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> It was deemed a “work event”.
> 
> However, as I understand it, they had finished working then stayed on to consume pre arranged beer and curry …..
> 
> They could have just gone home, rather than stay on and socialise.


I think they were just having a break and worked afterwards.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rona said:


> If that Hunt man become PM you'll all be rueing the day that Boris left


Why?


----------



## OrientalSlave

rona said:


> Yep.........It's the people behind him that have let him down.
> 
> I reckon they've been working him like a puppet. Most of the issues have arisen by him covering someone elses back


If BJ is so weak he can be 'worked like a puppet' he's not fit to be PM. But he isn't. He's not been worked, and the only back he has ever covered is his own.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think they were just having a break and worked afterwards.


A sandwich and coffee seems more “work like” to me.

Honestly, I think they’re all as bad as each other.


----------



## Boxer123

Lurcherlad said:


> A sandwich and coffee seems more “work like” to me.
> 
> Honestly, I think they’re all as bad as each other.


Once again I am shocked at how much they all drink.


----------



## Jesthar

Lurcherlad said:


> A sandwich and coffee seems more “work like” to me.
> 
> Honestly, I think they’re all as bad as each other.


Never had management organise a pizza lunch at work? I have, more than once pre-pandemic. And you'd be surprised how often people used to go out for a lunchtime Ruby and lager, or just go over the local.

Maybe they got a curry in to help out a local business during lockdown. But either way, as far as I am concerned there is a big difference between getting in a takeaway for an office lunch and having a birthday party.


----------



## Psygon

Jesthar said:


> Never had management organise a pizza lunch at work? I have, more than once pre-pandemic. And you'd be surprised how often people used to go out for a lunchtime Ruby and lager, or just go over the local.
> 
> Maybe they got a curry in to help out a local business during lockdown. But either way, as far as I am concerned there is a big difference between getting in a takeaway for an office lunch and having a birthday party.


I was going to say the same. Been to many work events where they organise lunch, mostly so they can get an extra hour out of you 😂


----------



## rottieboys

So they were working past 1am. A piece of cake is not a party. Curry and beers is a party. I do not believe they would be capable to work after all the drinks. 
I am not surprised he has been cleared.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> So they were working past 1am. A piece of cake is not a party. Curry and beers is a party. I do not believe they would be capable to work after all the drinks.
> I am not surprised he has been cleared.


If you are referring to Stammer & Rayner, how much do ou think they drunk, what did they drink and what are your grounds for implying they drunk lots? We know some people in Partygate drunk a huge amount - they sent out for more supplies, and the Sue Grey report documents drunken fights and vomiting.


----------



## Dimwit

rottieboys said:


> So they were working past 1am. A piece of cake is not a party. Curry and beers is a party. I do not believe they would be capable to work after all the drinks.
> I am not surprised he has been cleared.


But the cake (and all the other parties) happened when we were in lockdown and all social gatherings were prohibited. If you are trying to pretend that the downing street birthday party was work then what were Carrie and her interior designer doing there?

The curry and beer were at a very different time with different covid regulations and judged to be lawful. I have worked late on several occasions and been allowed to order pizza into the office.

The fact is that Johnson showed his contempt for the people if this country by consistently flouting the regulations that HIS government set because of their arrogant assumption that the law did not apply to them. He is someone who has never faced up to the consequences of his actions or uttered one word of sincere apology and I genuinely can’t understand why people are still defending him.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Jesthar said:


> Never had management organise a pizza lunch at work? I have, more than once pre-pandemic. And you'd be surprised how often people used to go out for a lunchtime Ruby and lager, or just go over the local.
> 
> Maybe they got a curry in to help out a local business during lockdown. But either way, as far as I am concerned there is a big difference between getting in a takeaway for an office lunch and having a birthday party.


NOT during a lockdown in a pandemic though.

Neither was it a working lunch … the pic looks like it was night time and AFTER they had finished canvassing.

I don’t think there’s much difference between party gate or beer gate … the Police have decided otherwise so that’s that.

I wouldn’t trust any of them as far as I could throw them.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Lurcherlad said:


> NOT during a lockdown in a pandemic though and there were still restrictions in place for gathering.
> 
> Neither was it a working lunch … the pic looks like it was night time and it was stated it was AFTER they had finished canvassing.
> 
> I don’t think there’s much difference between party gate or beer gate … the Police have decided otherwise so that’s that.
> 
> I wouldn’t trust any of them as far as I could throw them.


----------



## Cleo38

Dimwit said:


> But the cake (and all the other parties) happened when we were in lockdown and all social gatherings were prohibited. If you are trying to pretend that the downing street birthday party was work then what were Carrie and her interior designer doing there?
> 
> The curry and beer were at a very different time with different covid regulations and judged to be lawful. I have worked late on several occasions and been allowed to order pizza into the office.
> 
> The fact is that Johnson showed his contempt for the people if this country by consistently flouting the regulations that HIS government set because of their arrogant assumption that the law did not apply to them. He is someone who has never faced up to the consequences of his actions or uttered one word of sincere apology and I genuinely can’t understand why people are still defending him.


Completely agree. And that video with Allegra Stratton (I think that was her name) laughing about how they carried on despite the rules & it was all so funny was sickening 

I know that wasn't Boris himself but it just showed the attitude of those in power.

Boris has shown that he is complete stranger to the truth & has been throughout his career. I actually think he could have made a good PM. People really liked him, he has some good qualities & could have done some good but he believed in himself too much & didn't seem to care what lies he spouted.


----------



## rona

One word...............Cummings 


OrientalSlave said:


> If BJ is so weak he can be 'worked like a puppet' he's not fit to be PM. But he isn't. He's not been worked, and the only back he has ever covered is his own.


----------



## Psygon

Lurcherlad said:


> NOT during a lockdown in a pandemic though.
> 
> Neither was it a working lunch … the pic looks like it was night time and AFTER they had finished canvassing.
> 
> I don’t think there’s much difference between party gate or beer gate … the Police have decided otherwise so that’s that.
> 
> I wouldn’t trust any of them as far as I could throw them.


I don't think it was ever described as a working lunch - it's always been known that it was in the evening.

In terms of difference between beer and party gate... I asked in an earlier post. But did you actually read the Sue Grey report? 

Even if Starmer and Raynor had been fined there is a significant difference between beer gate and party gate...


----------



## rottieboys

No point going over it all now. Stammer stays. Should of done something about the grooming gang. But he did not believe the child who was rape 8 times in one day by the asians sex attackers.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> No point going over it all now. Stammer stays. Should of done something about the grooming gang. But he did not believe the child who was rape 8 times in one day by the asians sex attackers.



I think I know what you are referring to which was a widely discredited video that had been edited to misrepresent Kier Starmer. It was shown to be inaccurate and people like Dorries who shared it are the ones who deserve our anger tbh...









False claim: UK Labour leader Keir Starmer says in interview that grooming victims shouldn’t be believed if they have misued drugs or alcohol, or have a criminal record


A video of new Labour leader Keir Starmer apparently reciting a list of naïve assumptions about child victims of sexual grooming while he was director of public prosecutions has been widely shared on social media, including by three Conservative MPs.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Lurcherlad

Jesthar said:


> *Never had management organise a pizza lunch at work? I have, more than once pre-pandemic. And you'd be surprised how often people used to go out for a lunchtime Ruby and lager, or just go over the local.*
> 
> Maybe they got a curry in to help out a local business during lockdown. But either way, as far as I am concerned there is a big difference between getting in a takeaway for an office lunch and having a birthday party.





Psygon said:


> I don't think it was ever described as a working lunch - it's always been known that it was in the evening.
> 
> In terms of difference between beer and party gate... I asked in an earlier post. But did you actually read the Sue Grey report?
> 
> Even if Starmer and Raynor had been fined there is a significant difference between beer gate and party gate...


@Psygon I was responding to @Jesthar.

Whatever … they’re all shysters


----------



## Psygon

Lurcherlad said:


> @Psygon I was responding to @Jesthar.
> 
> Whatever … they’re all shysters


Ah oops, sorry 😳


----------



## Siskin

So it’s cake that makes the difference between a working meal or a party.🤣


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> I think I know what you are referring to which was a widely discredited video that had been edited to misrepresent Kier Starmer. It was shown to be inaccurate and people like Dorries who shared it are the ones who deserve our anger tbh...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> False claim: UK Labour leader Keir Starmer says in interview that grooming victims shouldn’t be believed if they have misued drugs or alcohol, or have a criminal record
> 
> 
> A video of new Labour leader Keir Starmer apparently reciting a list of naïve assumptions about child victims of sexual grooming while he was director of public prosecutions has been widely shared on social media, including by three Conservative MPs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


They had one of these victims on GB news. She has spoke about how drugs and alcohol was piled into her as she was handed around to different men. She reported it to the police and social workers. They did n't believe her. I am not sure why. There are lots of tests that should of been done. Nothing was done. Kier Stammer led the CPS. Shame Boris did n't stand up against him in Parliament.When Kier was quoting How victims freeze, when they had been assaulted by these sex offenders. Boris, you had your chance to mention the Rochester grooming gangs he fail to prosecute. The trouble with Kier's he does not want to upset these Asians gangs in case it cause trouble. doesn't matter about their victims. He doesn't want to upset anyone. He does n't even know what a women is. God help us if he gets to be a PM.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rona said:


> One word...............Cummings


Cummings was his choice, and I doubt he was under any illusions as to what Cummings was about.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> They had one of these victims on GB news. She has spoke about how drugs and alcohol was piled into her as she was handed around to different men. She reported it to the police and social workers. They did n't believe her. I am not sure why. There are lots of tests that should of been done. Nothing was done. Kier Stammer led the CPS. Shame Boris did n't stand up against him in Parliament.When Kier was quoting How victims freeze, when they had been assaulted by these sex offenders. Boris, you had your chance to mention the Rochester grooming gangs he fail to prosecute. The trouble with Kier's he does not want to upset these Asians gangs in case it cause trouble. doesn't matter about their victims. He doesn't want to upset anyone. He does n't even know what a women is. God help us if he gets to be a PM.


Why are you blaming Starmer? Nothing would have been sent to the CPS as the police & social workers didn't believe her. Blame the police & social workers.


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> So it’s cake that makes the difference between a working meal or a party.🤣


I imagine the bottles of alcohol brought in via suitcases also makes a difference!


----------



## Siskin

stuaz said:


> I imagine the bottles of alcohol brought in via suitcases also makes a difference!


Isn't beer alcohol?


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> Why are you blaming Starmer? Nothing would have been sent to the CPS as the police & social workers didn't believe her. Blame the police & social workers.


The question is Why did n't they believe her. It was n't only her . I do blame the police for being gutless. Social Service is rubbish anyway. Look what has happen to the children who have been under their care. The whole lot of them are incapable to do the right thing...


----------



## Boxer123

Siskin said:


> Isn't beer alcohol?


I think if you read the Sue Gray report as a whole it is because there were people there (Carrie & Interior Designer) who were not work colleagues. I’m not a massive fan of Starmer but also appreciate he would have taken responsibility and resigned had he been given a fixed notice penalty. Boris went on to lie to parliament. Suitcases full of booze and videos of people laughing and joking about parties is very different IMO.


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> Isn't beer alcohol?


I was referring to the volume of alcohol. They were going down to the local shop and bringing it back to Downing Street In suitcase.

I believe one such time was the night before the Duke of Edinburgh funeral.


----------



## huckybuck

Kier Starmer is good friends with Durham Police Commissioner Joy Allen. She has been a member of the Labour Party since 1995. Enough said.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> Kier Starmer is good friends with Durham Police Commissioner Joy Allen. She has been a member of the Labour Party since 1995. Enough said.


Police and Crime Commisioners (PCCs) do not get involved in operational policing. They are an elected representative theoretically there to hold the police to account, to appoint the chief constable and to hold the policing budget and set the policing plan. Which may set what types of crimes to prioritise.

Most PCCs are aligned to some party or other, but they have to swear an oath of impartiality when they are appointed to the role (after an election).


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> Kier Starmer is good friends with Durham Police Commissioner Joy Allen. She has been a member of the Labour Party since 1995. Enough said.


Just to add as well, that since PCCs are there to hold the police to account... If it's decided that the investigation into beer gate needed to be reviewed then at that point there may be a need to raise political impartiality as you would have a member of the Labour party investigating if the police were correct in their judgement that there was no case to answer for the leader of the Labour party. In all honesty I'm not sure what would trigger the PCC to investigate. Maybe if people in Durham raised concerns or someone in the police force raised concerns.


----------



## huckybuck

Psygon said:


> Police and Crime Commisioners (PCCs) do not get involved in operational policing. They are an elected representative theoretically there to hold the police to account, to appoint the chief constable and to hold the policing budget and set the policing plan. Which may set what types of crimes to prioritise.
> 
> Most PCCs are aligned to some party or other, but they have to swear an oath of impartiality when they are appointed to the role (after an election).


And if you believe that…


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> And if you believe that…


If I'm honest I am completely gob smacked by some of the stuff people on this thread seem to believe. So not totally surprised people are surprised by what I believe. 

I do know that I've spent a fair chunk of my career working close to organisations such as PCCs tho, so feel I have at least a small amount of insight gained first hand rather than in the media.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> And if you believe that…


And actually, just to add this because it's bugging me and will bug me if I don't say it.

You implied the Durham police force didn't investigate properly due to an existing relationship between the PCC and Kier Starmer. All I posted back was the role of a PCC, and how theoretically they hold the police to account. I didn't even say it was my belief and I didn't actually dispute your statement, even tho I personally don't believe you have the evidence to make the claim.

If you are able to post the evidence that shows that the Durham PCC interfered in the investigation then my statement still stands as they are still not meant to get involved in what is an operational policing matter. That is just fact, that's how they were set up and that's what they are meant to do.

I've absolutely no doubt that public institutions don't always work how they're meant to, we only have to look at what happened in government recently to see that. But I personally wish stuff wasn't made up or told in a way that people then make stuff up.

I've always steered clear of the political threads on here as I've been a civil servant. This is my first foray into one since I left the civil service and I've tried to post facts (tho sure I've shared my political persuasion a couple of times too) as whenever I've decided something in terms of my political views I've decided it based on trying to find out the truth and trying to make a judgement on it. And not just want I read on news websites etc. 

Anyway, I suspect my foray into the political threads will be short lived, even tho I do enjoy a good political debate!


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

Deguslave said:


> I'm a floating voter, I don't pledge allegiance to any political party. My vote can change with each election be it local or national. It doesn't make me a bad person, or flakey, it means that I weigh up what each candidate is offering a make an informed decision.


Aye, same here. I'm not a believer in party loyalty for the sake of it.

As things are currently, if there were a general election next week I'm almost certain I'd be spoiling my paper.


----------



## Deguslave

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Aye, same here. I'm not a believer in party loyalty for the sake of it.
> 
> As things are currently, if there were a general election next week I'm almost certain I'd be spoiling my paper.


'None of the above' seems the only logical vote at the moment. Pity we don't get that option.


----------



## rottieboys

We will never see evidence to support Durham PCC and Keir Stammer interfered in the investigation's, not unless someone put camera up or took photos. 
They will still come out with whatever lies they want. I think we all knew he was n't going to be fined. I don n't trust any of them.


----------



## Cleo38

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Aye, same here. I'm not a believer in party loyalty for the sake of it.
> 
> As things are currently, if there were a general election next week I'm almost certain I'd be spoiling my paper.


Same here, it's so very depressing


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'd have no idea who I'd like to take over from BJ and if they called a general election I'm not sure I'd vote.


----------



## Ceiling Kitty

rottieboys said:


> We will never see evidence to support Durham PCC and Keir Stammer interfered in the investigation's, not unless someone put camera up or took photos.
> They will still come out with whatever lies they want. I think we all knew he was n't going to be fined. I don n't trust any of them.


What do you want to happen? 

Starmer to resign? The same level of outrage against this as Johnson?

I can see an argument for the former, but you're never going to get the latter.


----------



## huckybuck

Psygon said:


> And actually, just to add this because it's bugging me and will bug me if I don't say it.
> 
> You implied the Durham police force didn't investigate properly due to an existing relationship between the PCC and Kier Starmer. All I posted back was the role of a PCC, and how theoretically they hold the police to account. I didn't even say it was my belief and I didn't actually dispute your statement, even tho I personally don't believe you have the evidence to make the claim.
> 
> If you are able to post the evidence that shows that the Durham PCC interfered in the investigation then my statement still stands as they are still not meant to get involved in what is an operational policing matter. That is just fact, that's how they were set up and that's what they are meant to do.
> 
> I've absolutely no doubt that public institutions don't always work how they're meant to, we only have to look at what happened in government recently to see that. But I personally wish stuff wasn't made up or told in a way that people then make stuff up.
> 
> I've always steered clear of the political threads on here as I've been a civil servant. This is my first foray into one since I left the civil service and I've tried to post facts (tho sure I've shared my political persuasion a couple of times too) as whenever I've decided something in terms of my political views I've decided it based on trying to find out the truth and trying to make a judgement on it. And not just want I read on news websites etc.
> 
> Anyway, I suspect my foray into the political threads will be short lived, even tho I do enjoy a good political debate!


I am Joe Bloggs. I have not worked in the civil service or closely with PCC organisations etc. No I don’t have first hand experience.

All I do is watch and read the news on various different channels and newspapers and then make my own judgement. I think it’s in my nature to be sceptical of people and to question everything I see and hear. 

I don’t have “evidence” or “facts” that the investigation wasn’t carried out properly or indeed that any favours were given. Other than the photographs and videos I have seen of Starmer helping Joy Allen get elected. And the information online about her political background. None of that is made up.

It might not be “evidence” in your eyes to make a claim but it’s my judgement and belief based on the information I have found.

I think I am as entitled as you are to voice this. It might not be written as intelligently or succinctly as yours but I still believe I should still be allowed to voice an opinion.

But perhaps we should only allow certain experts who have specific experience and done X amount of research voice political opinion? 


Going back to beer gate and cake gate. From the photos and information I personally don’t see any difference between the two - they were both as “bad” or as “innocent” as each other. Boris had 2 extra people who had been in his home at the work event (his wife and the decorator who happened to be in his house). We will never know if Starmer had anyone not part of his work party at his as there will be no Sue Gray report into it. One got fined by one police district who issued lots of fines for Covid violations and one didn’t by a district that issued a lot less of them. Durham police didn’t even fine Cummings.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> I am Joe Bloggs. I have not worked in the civil service or closely with PCC organisations etc. No I don’t have first hand experience.
> 
> All I do is watch and read the news on various different channels and newspapers and then make my own judgement. I think it’s in my nature to be sceptical of people and to question everything I see and hear.
> 
> I don’t have “evidence” or “facts” that the investigation wasn’t carried out properly or indeed that any favours were given. Other than the photographs and videos I have seen of Starmer helping Joy Allen get elected. And the information online about her political background. None of that is made up.
> 
> It might not be “evidence” in your eyes to make a claim but it’s my judgement and belief based on the information I have found.
> 
> I think I am as entitled as you are to voice this. It might not be written as intelligently or succinctly as yours but I still believe I should still be allowed to voice an opinion.
> 
> But perhaps we should only allow certain experts who have specific experience and done X amount of research voice political opinion?
> 
> 
> Going back to beer gate and cake gate. From the photos and information I personally don’t see any difference between the two - they were both as “bad” or as “innocent” as each other. Boris had 2 extra people who had been in his home at the work event (his wife and the decorator who happened to be in his house). We will never know if Starmer had anyone not part of his work party at his as there will be no Sue Gray report into it. One got fined by one police district who issued lots of fines for Covid violations and one didn’t by a district that issued a lot less of them. Durham police didn’t even fine Cummings.


My issue is with the fact you belittled my belief, that I never actually posted as a belief. I posted it as a this is what PCCs do, this is how they are elected to that role. As before i didn't actually question your assumption - simply posted a fact that you are then questioning. I personally don't feel it was fair to mock me for posting a fact.

As mentioned a lot of PCCs are politically aligned, this is the nature of that role and where the people that have that role come from. Something like 30 or so are conservative and 20 or so are labour. Does that mean they are inherently misrepresenting the people in their areas? Here an ideal may come in because I'd certainly hope not.

I do personally have a bit of an issue with PCCs and the value they bring, but I didn't even voice that here (although potentially me saying they theoretically hold the police to account may have hinted at it).

In terms of the civil servant point, I was mainly making that to explain why I wouldn't comment previously. Civil servants are meant to be politically neutral (as far as possible) so I've tried to avoid being too political in my posts and just share the facts.

I do realise this is getting close to - if not already into - the realms of name calling, and that is the nature of politics. But I think you have misjudged my post as an attack on you. It wasn't. It was the facts, that as they stand a PCC shouldn't get involved in operational police matters. I still don't think there is evidence to say she has either.


----------



## Siskin




----------



## huckybuck

@Psygon I apologise if my post came across as belittling or mocking towards you. It certainly wasn’t meant to cause offence or be seen as a direct attack on you. 

I would have liked to think you knew me well enough, that I never mean to hurt anyone but, that I do have a sense of humour (which I like to inject into the forums as often as I can). Maybe you don’t know me as well as I thought you did.

You were the one who chose to quote me in the first place and point out your facts in an attempt to prove my beliefs/opinion/assumption wrong. 

I actually felt that your post quoting me came across as very condescending but I do agree with you this may well be seen as tit for tat now.

I am not particularly bright or clever with language and words. I have never been in a position where I have had to debate on anything publicly. I have always tried not to quote or reply to people directly on here (instead just comment) unless they have quoted or replied to me first as I don’t want to be seen as getting into an argument with any particular individual. I responded to you (and perhaps with hindsight I shouldn’t have done) with what I felt was humour but you chose to take offence to it.

I agree with you that there is neither evidence or fact at the moment to say that Joy Allen had any input into the investigation into Starmer…


----------



## OrientalSlave

Siskin said:


> Isn't beer alcohol?


Yes, but not by the suitcase load. And for all we know that beer in his hand was low- or no-alcohol beer.


----------



## Happy Paws2

A beer and a curry while having a break at work isn't the same as a bring your bottle party.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Psygon said:


> If I'm honest I am completely gob smacked by some of the stuff people on this thread seem to believe. So not totally surprised people are surprised by what I believe.
> 
> I do know that I've spent a fair chunk of my career working close to organisations such as PCCs tho, so feel I have at least a small amount of insight gained first hand rather than in the media.


So am I. Some of it's like reading comments in the Daily Mail.


----------



## Happy Paws2

huckybuck said:


> Going back to beer gate and cake gate. From the photos and information I personally don’t see any difference between the two - they were both as “bad” or as “innocent” as each other. Boris had 2 extra people who had been in his home at the work event (his wife and the decorator who happened to be in his house). We will never know if Starmer had anyone not part of his work party at his as there will be no Sue Gray report into it. One got fined by one police district who issued lots of fines for Covid violations and one didn’t by a district that issued a lot less of them. Durham police didn’t even fine Cummings.


The police have look into Starmer twice and both times said he hadn't broke any rules.

We saw a picture of him standing in a office with a beer having a work break, a little different to a group sitting in the garden with glasses and bottles of wine with BJ and *wife* sat there enjoying themselves not a work file, piece a of paper or pen in sight.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> The police have look into Starmer twice and both times said he hadn't broke any rules.
> 
> We saw a picture of him standing in a office with a beer having a work break, a little different to a group sitting in the garden with glasses and bottles of wine with BJ and *wife* sat there enjoying themselves not a work file, piece a of paper or pen in sight.


But just because garden picture didn’t show work detritus, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. The pictures of beergate were taken from outside and very poor quality, whose to say whether there were work files there or not.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Siskin said:


> But just because garden picture didn’t show work detritus, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. The pictures of beergate were taken from outside and very poor quality, whose to say whether there were work files there or not.



What about the birthday party and cake


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> What about the birthday party and cake


What about the beer and curry🙄


----------



## Boxer123

I really don’t think it’s about who is right and who is wrong. The police have deemed Starmer not guilty so they must know more than us. I am not a huge fan of labour at the moment. Many on this thread have said they don’t know who to vote for. 

My main issue with party gate was the sheer number of parties and disrespect. At the end of the day Boris was in charge. The Conservatives made the rules. Police arrested two women for going for a walk. I sat on my own for nearly a year because I believed in those rules and yet how was this a terrifying virus when they were behaving like this? 

A good boss will have a good work ethic. It sounds like it was chaos. He then lied and lied. At least Starmer offered to resign. Boris just made jokes and treated it like a joke. 

People died alone whilst they partied and laughed about it ? They partied in the night of Prince Phillips funeral I’m not a royalist but the Queen cut such a sad figure at his funeral alone. She could have bent the rules.

Read this story and tell me it’s ok ? 









Mother whose son, 14, died in May lockdown says Boris Johnson should quit over 'BYOB party'


Louise Bennett had just 10 people at her 14-year-old son Fred's funeral because they were following the Government's coronavirus restrictions to keep others safe




inews.co.uk


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> But just because garden picture didn’t show work detritus, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. The pictures of beergate were taken from outside and very poor quality, whose to say whether there were work files there or not.


What about the emails that were sent about the after work “events” to “bring your own booze”. Is that normal for work meetings?


----------



## Siskin

stuaz said:


> What about the emails that were sent about the after work “events” to “bring your own booze”. Is that normal for work meetings?


I wouldn’t know, I didn’t work in offices apart from a bank for 2 years and gchq which in those days everything was banned. I worked mainly from home so I did bring my own booze to that from time to time😁😜


----------



## stuaz

Siskin said:


> I wouldn’t know, I didn’t work in offices apart from a bank for 2 years and gchq which in those days everything was banned. I worked mainly from home so I did bring my own booze to that from time to time😁😜


The answer is no unless maybe you work in a brewery


----------



## Boxer123

stuaz said:


> What about the emails that were sent about the after work “events” to “bring your own booze”. Is that normal for work meetings?


No we bring biscuits but did everything virtual all lockdown.


----------



## Deguslave

I worked in offices most of my working life, both private and public sector (local government, NHS, etc), and I can tell you now, alcohol consumption was forbidden on the premises, unless it was a leaving party and special permission had to be sought from the management for that. 

Even drinking alcohol at lunchtime in the local was frowned upon. 

From reading the Gray Report, and yes, I've read all of it, Downing Street was aptly named.


----------



## kimthecat

Jeremy Hunt is out for me as he wants to make fox hunting legal . Liz Truss giving the finger , not very British , Whats wrong with the good old Harvey Smith v sign.


----------



## Deguslave

I don't think there's much to choose between them to be honest. Either way, it'll be the choice of the Conservative party and not the public.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> Jeremy Hunt is out for me as he wants to make fox hunting legal . Liz Truss giving the finger , not very British , Whats wrong with the good old Harvey Smith v sign.


Don’t think that was Liz Truss… Andrea Jenkins did it the other day though


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> Over 50 MPs facing allegations of sexual misconduct in Westminster. They are not all Conservatives. Hope all their bosses will get the criticism like Boris got.
> God help us who we get as PM now.


Absolutely!! The expression "Be careful what you wish for" comes to mind.


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> Don’t think that was Liz Truss… Andrea Jenkins did it the other day though


I think you could be right ! I dont know why i thought it was her.


----------



## Pawscrossed

And I sit in 30 degrees with 40 predicted, and which candidate mentioned the climate crisis?


----------



## Deguslave

Pawscrossed said:


> And I sit in 30 degrees with 40 predicted, and which candidate mentioned the climate crisis?


That would be none.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If we have to have a women I think Kemi Badenoch would be a good appointment. 
I heard her on TV and I really liked what she had to say.


----------



## Siskin

Happy Paws2 said:


> If we have to have a women I think Kemi Badenoch would be a good appointment.
> I heard her on TV and I really liked what she had to say.


I agree with you, she does sound good. The only issue would be lack of experience in high office. If she doesn’t win she should be a minister


----------



## Happy Paws2

I hope we don't get Truss she to much like thatcher and we all know the damage she did.


----------



## huckybuck

I’m enjoying listening to the campaigns and watching the voting. 
I think I know who I’d like but want to make sure I’ve heard them all before I make a decision.


----------



## kimthecat

Im liking Penny Mordaunt at the moment.


----------



## huckybuck

kimthecat said:


> Im liking Penny Mordaunt at the moment.


Yes me too.


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> Im liking Penny Mordaunt at the moment.


One of the Favourites to win when I last checked. Admittedly, I don’t know much about her.


----------



## kimthecat

She is still in the running. I dont know much about her either . They will be having debates on TV so perhaps we will learn more .


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Im liking Penny Mordaunt at the moment.


I like her as well, but I also like Kemi Badenoch.


----------



## kimthecat

i didn't watch it . We went for a walk as it is cooler now. 

Im not so sure about Penny now. It appears she backs Self ID where if a man can say he is a woman with out any medical assessment etc and have access to women's toilets , prisons etc.


----------



## huckybuck

I taped the debate and watching it now. 

I think the three strongest are Rishi, Penny and Kemi.

I do like Kemi.

@kimthecat Penny cleared up the Self ID thing. Kemi did pull her up on it.


----------



## GingerNinja

I think penny came out the weakest in my opinion, wishy washy answers and was clearly struggling at some points.
Tom (who is he?) got the most applause.
I like Kemi the most.


----------



## kimthecat

I caught the end of it . I liked them all except Liz Truss for some reason that I dont know why. 

@huckybuck What did Penny say about it ?


----------



## huckybuck

kimthecat said:


> I caught the end of it . I liked them all except Liz Truss for some reason that I dont know why.
> 
> @huckybuck What did Penny say about it ?


Just that she realised the difference between a woman defined at birth and the choice to legally be called a woman. She recognised that situations such as a refuge/toilets should be safe environments for women and as such she didn’t support self ID.


----------



## huckybuck

Tom was smarmy. The only decent thing he said was to contact our MP and tell them who we would like to be the next PM (I might just do that although our MP is Lib Dem so I will contact the next constituency lol). 

Penny was a bit wishy washy with some of her answers (I felt like she was trying to say the right thing rather than what she really thought although I did think she had good ideas about the NHS). 

Rishi was good and polished which is what I expected. But I found Kemi believable and refreshing - she spoke better when she was asked questions rather than reading from a script.


----------



## kimthecat

.


huckybuck said:


> Just that she realised the difference between a woman defined at birth and the choice to legally be called a woman. She recognised that situations such as a refuge/toilets should be safe environments for women and as such she didn’t support self ID.


oh thats good if she really means it. She could just saying that so as not to lose votes.




huckybuck said:


> Tom was smarmy. The only decent thing he said was to contact our MP and tell them who we would like to be the next PM (I might just do that although our MP is Lib Dem so I will contact the next constituency lol).


my MP is Boris . He said the other week that he wouldn't support anyone in case it ruined their chances


----------



## Deguslave

My MP is labour and invisible! Whenever there's an article in the local press on 'what local MPs think' he's never mentioned, to which I can only conclude that he either has no opinions or he's simply not there. 

I even went as far as googling him to check he was still my MP and they hadn't redrawn the boundaries, but I'm sure he'll resurface when a general election is called.


----------



## OrientalSlave

I see people saying 'I like X', but almost never with a reason? We have seen the damaged inflicted by a man elected because he was entertaining above all else


----------



## kimthecat

OrientalSlave said:


> I see people saying 'I like X', but almost never with a reason? We have seen the damaged inflicted by a man elected because he was entertaining above all else


Perhaps people don;t want to give reasons in case they get snipey comments.

Edited for spelling.


----------



## huckybuck

kimthecat said:


> Pergaps people don;t want to give reasons in case they get snipey comments.


Exactly - esp when we know the majority here do not want a conservative government.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Did anyone watch the Conservative Muppet show last nigh I did and I gave in and watched most of it again to listen to it properly, I really think that Keir Starmer and the labour party must have had a good laugh at them.


----------



## kimthecat

@Happy Paws2 People have already commented on it 

Next debate is ITV on Sunday and the next vote is Monday where one would- be PM will be knocked out .


----------



## Happy Paws2

Listening to them last night I've decided that Penny Mordaunt and Tom Tugendhat are the best of a bad lot.

But if that the best they can do, please help us.


----------



## huckybuck

Tom makes me cringe. He is so cheesy. All he harped on about was beating Kier Starmer in 2024. was as if he hadn’t got any other agenda.

However I do think they all upped their game last night in the way they represented themselves. 

I still liked Kemi but thought Rishi and Penny did better this time.

It will be an exciting couple of days with the voting now. Looking forward to watching it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I see Sky debate tomorrow night between the candidates has been called off because Truss and Sunak don't want to take part.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I see Sky debate tomorrow night between the candidates has been called off because Truss and Sunak don't want to take part.


Because they fear the rows between them will look damaging. I dont understand why they are having these debates. Its not like its an election . Only Tory members will be able to vote in the final . 

i wonder of llamas will be voting. ?


----------



## kimthecat

kimthecat said:


> Because they fear the rows between them will look damaging. I dont understand why they are having these debates. Its not like its an election . Only Tory members will be able to vote in the final .
> 
> i wonder i the f llamas will be voting. ?


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Because they fear the rows between them will look damaging. I dont understand why they are having these debates. Its not like its an election .* Only Tory members will be able to vote in the final .
> 
> *


just read this....

"We don't know exactly how many members the party has because they won't tell us, but it is over 160,000, or about 0.3% of the total UK electorate"

not many to chose the next PM is it.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> Because they fear the rows between them will look damaging. I dont understand why they are having these debates. Its not like its an election . Only Tory members will be able to vote in the final .
> 
> i wonder of llamas will be voting. ?


I’m not taking that much notice of the race tbh

As you say, I won’t have a say in who they pick.

The public get their vote in a General Election.

At the moment Monster Raving Loonies are in the lead for that 😉


----------



## mrs phas

Lurcherlad said:


> At the moment Monster Raving Loonies are in the lead for that


Oh for the days of the MRLP and Screaming Lord Sutch 
At least voting was fun with all the whacky parties
All came to an end when they raised the deposit so high, it was no longer feasible for the outright loonies (which included the greens then) to lose


----------



## kimthecat

@mrs phas There's always Count Binface . He gets my vote 









Count Binface







www.countbinface.com


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well that's all we need a copy of thatcher and a liar who was fined for partying while people were dying and his wife who was a tax cheat.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Ha! Dishy Rishi and Maggie Wannabe. Blooming heck. 

You know the saddest thing of it all? The Tories will still win the next election. Obviously that's sad for me, not for everyone  

Young people need to vote. They need to look at the **** lives they have and the reasons for that, do some research, get off their bums and vote. I find it so so upsetting that young women, in particular, don't vote. Women died so that they could, for goodness sake. Vote for whoever you want to - but do it. 

I am someone who would never ever vote Conservative - however, I'm not falling out with anyone because of the way they vote.


----------



## Deguslave

I think we need to make voting compulsory, as in Australia , but we MUST have the option of being able to vote for 'none of the above.'


----------



## huckybuck

I hope the Tories do win the next election - I dread what Labour would do to this country. I am old enough to remember what it was like under a Labour government. 

But I would never fall out with you Mrs F just because we hold different views 😘

I have to say I’m a bit disappointed in the choice I’m going to have to make. And really there’s only one choice if we want to do something about inflation.

I would have liked to see Kemi in the last two.


----------



## kimthecat

Mrs Funkin said:


> Ha! Dishy Rishi and Maggie Wannabe. Blooming heck.
> 
> You know the saddest thing of it all? The Tories will still win the next election. Obviously that's sad for me, not for everyone


If I were Tory , I would vote for Rishi .
I dont think the Tories will win the next election. They have been in power for a long time and people generally want a change after so long. If Labour could get a decent leader , it would help. 

Yes , younger people should vote then they cant blame us oldies when it goes wrong. 

Ive always voted but to be honest I'm fed up with all of them.


----------



## Deguslave

I have the same argument time and time again with a lot of whingers. They moan about the government, but don't vote. If you don't vote, you've done nothing to change it so you can't complain about the outcome.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If either of these two win the next election, help us all. 

lets remember these.....

Poll tax 
Selling council houses.
Selling off gas, electric and water to foreign countries.
Privatising the Railways. 

I dread to think what they'll do next.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I think that the country is in such a mess that whoever is in government has an absolute nightmare facing them.

I’m still cross about the millions of pounds spent on furlough payments - particularly the fraudulent claims. There is no point in my getting angry about it, I know that, but I can’t help but feel rage about people that still got paid to sit at home whilst so many of us were slogging our guts out in awful conditions. There’s also no point in complaining about the rubbish pay rise we’ve been offered in the NHS - nothing will change, there’s definitely going to be a strike on the cards though. No matter Labour or Tory or anyone else, that won’t change.

I don’t know the answer. I am fairly sure it’s not Truss, though I wouldn’t be surprised if she got the job as so many old school Maggie lovers might well vote for her. Jeez, that’s a scary thought.


----------



## SbanR

kimthecat said:


> Ive always voted but to be honest I'm fed up with all of them.


Me too


----------



## huckybuck

Well my Nanny D would never have been able to buy a house if they hadn’t sold council houses. 

Nanny worked from age 14 to 85 without a break. She worked through bringing up 5 children (no contraception in those days otherwise she wouldn’t have had so many - her words). She paid rent for every home she lived in. All her money went on rent and food. There were no benefits back then.

She was offered council housing in the 60s which she rented and in the 1980s she jumped at the offer to buy. She took out a mortgage to do so when she was in her 60s and widowed and she knew she’d have to carry on working til she paid it off.


I am proud she was able to finally have something to show for a life or hard work and paying her tax.

If it hadn’t been for the right to buy she would never have been able to own her own home despite 70 years full time work.


----------



## mrs phas

I always vote but next time my vote will be the equivalent of none of the above
Whomever gets it (probably greens)won't win, 
But 
It means it will be one vote that the big three won't get


----------



## kimthecat

he's not in the running but Kwasi Kwarteng was talking to Preston and I thought its a shame he didnt enter the leadership contest.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> If either of these two win the next election, help us all.
> 
> Selling council houses.
> I dread to think what they'll do next.


How do you manage to pay your rent out of your pension. Mine wouldnt even cover the cost of renting here, 
Also , the triple pension lock was introduced by the Tory / Lib Dems goverment ,


----------



## Happy Paws2

going to repost


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> How do you manage to pay your rent out of your pension. Mine wouldnt even cover the cost of renting here,
> Also , the triple pension lock was introduced by the Tory / Lib Dems goverment ,


We just about mange at the moment but if things keep going up we may be in trouble.

And as for the triple lock it's has been suspended and I don't think we'd have got it in the first place if it wasn't for the Lim Dems.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well that's all we need a copy of thatcher and a liar who was fined for partying while people were dying and his wife who was a tax cheat.


Did Liz Trust get a fine?


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> If either of these two win the next election, help us all.
> 
> lets remember these.....
> 
> Poll tax
> Selling council houses.
> Selling off gas, electric and water to foreign countries.
> Privatising the Railways.
> 
> I dread to think what they'll do next.


What did Labour do. Open all borders let everyone in. So they can get more votes. They also lied about weapons.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'd still vote Labour maybe Lib Dem if I thought I could get rid of Andrew Mitchell as our MP but I'd never never vote Tory,


----------



## rottieboys

Shame Boris is gone now, otherwise Labour or Lib Dem would not win. Still , we can now vote for who we like to support.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> We just about mange at the moment but if things keep going up we may be in trouble.
> 
> And as for the triple lock it's has been suspended and I don't think we'd have got it in the first place if it wasn't for the Lim Dems.


Its suspended for one year but we will still get an inflation rise. I get the new pension , it doesn't seem fair that those who got their pension earlier get a lower pension.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'd still vote Labour maybe Lib Dem if I thought I could get rid of Andrew Mitchell as our MP but I'd never never vote Tory,


I would have voted for David Miliband . if he hadn't been stabbed in the back by his brother, it 'spossible he could have been PM and Labour in power.


----------



## SbanR

kimthecat said:


> Its suspended for one year but we will still get an inflation rise. I get the new pension , it doesn't seem fair that those who got their pension earlier get a lower pension.


Are you talking the State Pension?
Are there 2 different sorts/levels being given out??


----------



## kimthecat

SbanR said:


> Are you talking the State Pension?
> Are there 2 different sorts/levels being given out??


Yes. People who claimed their state pension before 2016 receive a lower amount. All those claiming after that date receive the new state pension . If you haven't claimed yet you will receive the new one depending on your National insurance record.





__





The new State Pension


How to get and claim your State Pension, State Pension age - for men born on or after 6 April 1951 and women born on or after 6 April 1953.




www.gov.uk


----------



## Jobeth

kimthecat said:


> Yes. People who claimed their state pension before 2016 receive a lower amount. All those claiming after that date receive the new state pension . If you haven't claimed yet you will receive the new one when you do depending on you National insurance record.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new State Pension
> 
> 
> How to get and claim your State Pension, State Pension age - for men born on or after 6 April 1951 and women born on or after 6 April 1953.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk


It’s worth checking your forecast on the Government Gateway. I’m missing 4 years of contributions because of university. It means that if I retire early I won’t get the full state pension.


----------



## Siskin

Jobeth said:


> It’s worth checking your forecast on the Government Gateway. I’m missing 4 years of contributions because of university. It means that if I retire early I won’t get the full state pension.


I checked mine years ago as I knew I hadn’t got enough contributions and I wanted to know what I could do to make up the difference. Ended up speaking to a very helpful lady who sent me details of the four years I needed to make up and the cheapest way of doing that, bit complicated so won’t go into it as I suspect it doesn’t apply now. I paid class 3 contributions for the missing years so I got my full pension. this was prior to 2016


----------



## huckybuck

You can still top up missing years and let gov/pensions know if you were in full time education at the time. I’m doing exactly that atm.


----------



## Jobeth

huckybuck said:


> You can still top up missing years and let gov/pensions know if you were in full time education at the time. I’m doing exactly that atm.


It’s too long ago for me to do it now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Anyone going to watch the comedy show on the BBC tonight at 9pm


----------



## huckybuck

I’m looking forward to the debate immensely. Just watched Starmer discuss his plan for the cost of living crisis which was constructive NOT - let’s simply criticise the government for their plans cause we don’t have any.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Anyone going to watch the comedy show on the BBC tonight at 9pm


No. It seems to be based on whether to tax or not. 

I saw Starmer on the news this a.m. giving a speech somewhere. I do like him but his speech seemed waffle about how to do things the British way and what a great country we are . My eyes glazed over, he didnt seen to say how he would pull the country out of this recession.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> No. It seems to be based on whether to tax or not.
> 
> I saw Starmer on the news this a.m. giving a speech somewhere. I do like him but his speech seemed waffle about how to do things the British way and what a great country we are . My eyes glazed over, he didnt seen to say how he would pull the country out of this recession.



I've only seen bit of Starmer speech on the news I haven't heard all of it yet, I do like him, he just needs a bit more life about him.


----------



## huckybuck

Starmer never says anything about what he would do. The party has no agenda/plans bar negativity to the opposition.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

huckybuck said:


> I’m looking forward to the debate immensely. Just watched Starmer discuss his plan for the cost of living crisis which was constructive NOT - let’s simply criticise the government for their plans cause we don’t have any.


I actually feel like that about most politicians. That they just "have a go" at the opposition but don't actually lay on the line any sensible policies. If they do discuss policy, it's all "pie in the sky" - like a massive tax cut (surely impossible) or three squllion pounds for the NHS (from where, exactly?). Anything to win votes - which they say will be implemented by 2054 or some such ridiculous timescale. Starmer says a lot without actually saying anything at all.

I actually think that Rishi is in trouble with the Conservative party members. I am fairly convinced Truss will win, partly because she's a wannabe Maggie (older members like that) and partly because not all Conservative party members are multi-millionaires who have hearts of stone towards those less fortunate than they are. The headlines last week about Sunak not having any clue about the working/middle classes due to his huge fortune (£7 million house in town anyone?) will not sit well with those members and I think he will lose votes because of it. There are many middle England party members who have improved their lives and are proud of that - but still have empathy for those that potentially struggle - and they are the votes Truss will get.


----------



## huckybuck

Mrs Funkin said:


> I actually feel like that about most politicians. That they just "have a go" at the opposition but don't actually lay on the line any sensible policies. If they do discuss policy, it's all "pie in the sky" - like a massive tax cut (surely impossible) or three squllion pounds for the NHS (from where, exactly?). Anything to win votes - which they say will be implemented by 2054 or some such ridiculous timescale. Starmer says a lot without actually saying anything at all.
> 
> I actually think that Rishi is in trouble with the Conservative party members. I am fairly convinced Truss will win, partly because she's a wannabe Maggie (older members like that) and partly because not all Conservative party members are multi-millionaires who have hearts of stone towards those less fortunate than they are. The headlines last week about Sunak not having any clue about the working/middle classes due to his huge fortune (£7 million house in town anyone?) will not sit well with those members and I think he will lose votes because of it. There are many middle England party members who have improved their lives and are proud of that - but still have empathy for those that potentially struggle - and they are the votes Truss will get.


Well I’ll be one of the voters @MrsFunkin and although I think I know who I want to vote for I am going to get as much info as I can before I finally decide. 

My dilemma is although I like Liz and think she is a good cabinet member - I really don’t agree with her cut taxes and borrow more plan as I we desperately need to tackle inflation. 

Although I think she is channelling Maggie she doesn’t come across as calm and strong as she was - I always think she appears stressed and could easily get in a flap in a debate. 

When it comes to a general election I can’t see people voting for her as a PM. Other than that she’s a woman. 

Rishi I am not keen on as I feel he had an agenda to be PM and he didn’t care how he got himself there. I think he was very disloyal to Boris and I hate back stabbing. 

I think he’s been a good chancellor but needs to do more than he’s suggested so far to help with the cost of living. I agree he appears a little removed from Mr Average but he has come from a family who had very little and worked hard to get where they are today. I suspect he has always aspired to do better (and perhaps marry well). 

I like that he can hold himself in a debate and looks calm cool and collected. More of a PM. But he wouldn’t have been my first choice when we had the original line up. 

I think there’s a quite a few Tory members who’d like to see Boris back on the ballot paper!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Hmmmm, not sure a GP father and a pharmacist mother, who sent Rishi to private Prep and boarding school, Oxford Uni, then Stanford for a MBA quite counts as a "family who had very little" - but perhaps my definition of a family who has very little is a bit different to that  

Wouldn't trust him as far as I could chuck him, quite frankly and I suspect you are right HB about his ambitions and being prepared to do anything - in much the same way as Boris was.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh and just been reading about how Boris still wants to be PM. Could that happen @huckybuck ? Could there be a "write in" vote from Conservative party members?


----------



## huckybuck

Mrs Funkin said:


> Oh and just been reading about how Boris still wants to be PM. Could that happen @huckybuck ? Could there be a "write in" vote from Conservative party members?


Oh you like to put me on the spot @MrsFunkin 😂

Churchill came back! Arny came back!


----------



## huckybuck

I enjoyed the debate. 

I think Liz came across a lot better this time. I didn’t like Rishi talking over her so much. 

I am still in a quandary as they are so far apart with regards to tax and the economy. But I don’t like that Rishi seems more concerned about his legacy than what’s happening now. I wish they were slightly more aligned in their economic plans. 

Would be interested to hear what Boris would say if he were in the running.


----------



## huckybuck

Mrs Funkin said:


> Hmmmm, not sure a GP father and a pharmacist mother, who sent Rishi to private Prep and boarding school, Oxford Uni, then Stanford for a MBA quite counts as a "family who had very little" - but perhaps my definition of a family who has very little is a bit different to that
> 
> Wouldn't trust him as far as I could chuck him, quite frankly and I suspect you are right HB about his ambitions and being prepared to do anything - in much the same way as Boris was.


They immigrated to this country with very little. Then worked hard to send their kids to private school. I have no problem at all with that - work hard and aspire for better.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Me neither, HB, however they didn’t have very little. His maternal grandmother sold her wedding jewellery to buy a ticket to England - if they were in poverty there’d have been no gold to sell. She had an arranged marriage to a Punjabi railway engineer working in Tanzania, if they were poor the arranged marriage would not have been to an educated engineer. Whilst I have every respect for Granny upping sticks and coming to England on her own, saving for a year to bring her husband and children to the UK, they were by no means impoverished. The paternal line is descended from upper middle class Punjabis living in Kenya. Just because his grandparents were immigrants, it doesn’t mean they were poor. Anyway, it matters not in the grand scheme of things, it’s just interesting to me how things are “spun”. I guess that’s politics though. A lot of spin!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Interestingly Sunak has come out better amongst Labour voters than Truss. Bet another poll tomorrow says the opposite though  

I’m away to sleep. Another day at the hospital coal face awaits…I’ll take that any day over being PM. I reckon I’d be arguing NOT to become PM!


----------



## kimthecat

It put me off him saying work hard etc . What about those who work long hours and dont get well paid or those unable to work . He makes it seem that those who aren't well -off are lazy. 

My parents worked hard and we were lucky that they let me and my sister stay on at shool to pass our o levels . Lots of kids left school at 15 because they had to get jobs.


----------



## Deguslave

Sunak has never cared about people who are unable to work through illness, we were ignored during the pandemic and so were many carers.

To be honest, I'm not fond of either of them, and I think whoever gets the top position, be it Truss, Sunak or Johnson, a general election should be called so that the country can decide, not just the conservative party.


----------



## rottieboys

Sunak interrupted 22 times. Truss was calm. He was obvious been told by his supported , to interrupt, interrupt. He came across a snake to me. Liz next PM.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I never thought I'd say this but I hope Truss gets though, I thought that Sunak came over as aggerate and rude and no understanding about normal people life's.


----------



## huckybuck

I must say I saw a side to him I didn’t like last night. 

Another debate Thursday night. I really want to know what they intend to do about the migrant crossings.


----------



## Happy Paws2

huckybuck said:


> I must say I saw a side to him I didn’t like last night.
> 
> *Another debate tonight. * I really want to know what they intend to do about the migrant crossings.



What channel is it on.


----------



## huckybuck

Happy Paws2 said:


> What channel is it on.


Just checked and it’s not tonight (I got my day wrong) but Thursday 4th Aug at 8pm on Sky News.


----------



## huckybuck

There is a debate on tonight (I thought I’d heard there was). It’s Talk TV/Radio at 6pm. Kate Mc Cann (really like her) is going to ask questions.


----------



## Happy Paws2

huckybuck said:


> There is a debate on tonight (I thought I’d heard there was). It’s Talk TV/Radio at 6pm. Kate Mc Cann (really like her) is going to ask questions.



It's been stopped as the presenter fainted just after it started.


----------



## huckybuck

I was watching it. She fainted after about 20 mins or so. Felt very sorry for Kate and I’m glad they have said she’s ok.


----------



## ForestWomble

Happy Paws2 said:


> It's been stopped as the presenter fainted just after it started.





huckybuck said:


> I was watching it. She fainted after about 20 mins or so. Felt very sorry for Kate and I’m glad they have said she’s ok.


Oh my gosh! Hope she is OK.


----------



## Snoringbear

Making a choice between Sunak and Truss is like choosing between which leg to have broken.


----------



## Boxer123

Snoringbear said:


> Making a choice between Sunak and Truss is like choosing between which leg to have broken.


Brilliant.


----------



## huckybuck

Quite excited. I’ve got a chance to meet Liz and Rishi at the weekend. 
Rishi is out because there’s no way I’ll be getting up early Sat am to see him at 8:30 but I’m booked to meet Liz Sunday afternoon.


----------



## Siskin

Look forward to reading what you think of her


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well. I Starmer has well and truly lost my vote after this:









Keir Starmer sacks shadow transport minister who backed rail strikes


Sam Tarry defied Sir Keir Starmer by joining striking rail workers on the picket line.



www.bbc.co.uk





Whether or not you personally agree with a strike, the Labour Party is linked to unions. Linked to supporting the rights of workers. And he's sacked a minister for joining a picket line. Whilst Starmer is leader, the Labour Party will not get my vote. Labour would never get in where I live anyway, so my vote is always essentially "wasted" but I will be wasting it elsewhere at this rate, come the next election. 

Pppfffttt.


----------



## Sarah H

I thought Boris was the worst we've had, but these two are something else. I honestly can't believe anyone would want either of them in charge of the country, absolutely abysmal state of politics at the moment.
I think we need to kick them all out (not just the Tories) and start afresh tbh. Clean slate with new, younger, politicians who actually have some grasp of what us plebs go through and need.


----------



## SbanR

Oh but you Must meet Rishi @huckybuck . How else will you make a balanced, informed choice???


----------



## huckybuck

SbanR said:


> Oh but you Must meet Rishi @huckybuck . How else will you make a balanced, informed choice???


I am doing my best with the debates @SbanR but sadly nothing will make me get out of bed that early on a Sat morning!!!! Even the HBs can’t manage to get me up!!!!


----------



## Sarah H

This video really made me laugh 🤣 🤣


----------



## SbanR

huckybuck said:


> I am doing my best with the debates @SbanR but sadly nothing will make me get out of bed that early on a Sat morning!!!! Even the HBs can’t manage to get me up!!!!


Puts me in mind of these celebrities who say £xxxxxx isn't enough to make them get out of bed!😹😹😹😹


----------



## kimthecat

I think anyone would be mad to want to run the country and the problems we have now. 
The latest is the crops are failing in the South due to the drought , along with the war in Ukraine and Russia bombing the port where they export the grain from, this will push prices up in our country but people will die from starvation in Africa where there is already a drought . 😢


----------



## huckybuck

I am beyond myself with excitement. Been notified of the meeting place tomorrow and it’s someone’s house round the corner. I really wish I’d offered to have it here now lol!!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

So @huckybuck what did you think? Have you been converted to Vote Lizzie?


----------



## huckybuck

It was so exciting @Mrs Funkin 😂

About 30 or so people in someone’s back garden!! There was tea/coffee and WINE!!!! Oh and a raffle for a bottle of champagne!

I spoke to a few people who had been the day before to see Rishi and I really wish I had got my backside out of bed to see him now 🙄

Liz was very likeable and natural. 

She gave a small speech for about 15 mins (pretty much what we had seen in the debates) but then she took some random questions which she handled well. She had answers to everything asked of her and had clearly thought about all aspects of her government not just the economy/cost of living. 

She then did a small walk around, still answering questions (everyone was clamouring to meet her) before she was dragged away by her aides, off to the next meet (oh and then the footie to meet the German foreign minister later) 😅

I can’t believe how fresh she looked considering they are doing 5/6 of these a day and she’s still working as foreign minister at the same time!!

I came away feeling she was genuine and that she really wants to try to make things better for everyone in the UK. She is certainly putting her heart and soul into it. 

My highlight was right at the end…just as she was leaving I briefly managed to speak to her. She spotted my t shirt (cat obv) and smiled and said “I’m a HUGE fan of Larry”

Well that was me converted 😻

(I also got a pic with her but I look awful in it so not posting here - you’d think I was the one running for PM I look so haggard lol).


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Oh that's good then, if you feel it was useful to help you decide. 

I think she's going to win.


----------



## CollieSlave

huckybuck said:


> It was so exciting @Mrs Funkin 😂
> 
> About 30 or so people in someone’s back garden!! There was tea/coffee and WINE!!!! Oh and a raffle for a bottle of champagne!
> 
> I spoke to a few people who had been the day before to see Rishi and I really wish I had got my backside out of bed to see him now 🙄
> 
> Liz was very likeable and natural.
> 
> She gave a small speech for about 15 mins (pretty much what we had seen in the debates) but then she took some random questions which she handled well. She had answers to everything asked of her and had clearly thought about all aspects of her government not just the economy/cost of living.
> 
> She then did a small walk around, still answering questions (everyone was clamouring to meet her) before she was dragged away by her aides, off to the next meet (oh and then the footie to meet the German foreign minister later) 😅
> 
> I can’t believe how fresh she looked considering they are doing 5/6 of these a day and she’s still working as foreign minister at the same time!!
> 
> I came away feeling she was genuine and that she really wants to try to make things better for everyone in the UK. She is certainly putting her heart and soul into it.
> 
> My highlight was right at the end…just as she was leaving I briefly managed to speak to her. She spotted my t shirt (cat obv) and smiled and said “I’m a HUGE fan of Larry”
> 
> Well that was me converted 😻
> 
> (I also got a pic with her but I look awful in it so not posting here - you’d think I was the one running for PM I look so haggard lol).
> 
> View attachment 575469
> 
> View attachment 575470
> 
> View attachment 575472


I greatly admire your touching faith in policies, promises and responses made to questions, offered by someone with a powerful interest in attaining the post of PM! I seem to recall promises made pre-election (£350 million per week for the NHS, for example) that fail to come to fruition post election for one reason or another; but then I was ever the cynic. Hope your faith is justified!


----------



## MollySmith

Was the champers left over from partygate? Anything remotely useful on fair pay to the NHS, a resolution to the energy crisis, cost of living, action over the climate crisis. Why did she vote for Boris, not for Brexit and changed her mind. If only it took a garden party with .WINE!! to bribe those who have to decide whether to feed themselves or their children thank to her governments actions. How utterly insulting to them.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Isn't that what we all of us who vote do to some extent though @CollieSlave ? Hold some kind of faith in a political party/politician and vote for them as a result of their promises/policies? Whether I agree politically with @huckybuck or not, I do applaud her actually trying to make a proper decision about who to vote for. 

Me? Well, today I voted to take industrial action :/


----------



## Mrs Funkin

@MollySmith you're here! Welcome back, not seen you in AGES. This has made me smile xx


----------



## Boxer123

Yes good to see you @MollySmith.


----------



## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> @MollySmith you're here! Welcome back, not seen you in AGES. This has made me smile xx


Thank You, I hope you’re keeping well. I fear you are alone with the smiles! Hugs x


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> Yes good to see you @MollySmith.


Oooh hello you. It’s nice to see you here. I hope you‘re okay.


----------



## MollySmith

Mrs Funkin said:


> Isn't that what we all of us who vote do to some extent though @CollieSlave ? Hold some kind of faith in a political party/politician and vote for them as a result of their promises/policies? Whether I agree politically with @huckybuck or not, I do applaud her actually trying to make a proper decision about who to vote for.
> 
> Me? Well, today I voted to take industrial action :/


Yes that’s true. I‘d have been arrested if I met Liz Truss. Well said. I eat my words because I‘ve always said get off a forum and go find out @huckybuck did that.I may not agree with the party but they did find out. 

And I send you every support for your vote, that‘s a big decision not taken lightly. Solidarity to you x


----------



## Sarah H

Considering her own father wants nothing to do with her why would anyone want to be anywhere near the stupid woman? She made up ridiculous lies that she had a bad upbringing and schooling (not true), claimed that every A level student will get an interview at Oxbridge (never going to happen), and doesn't seem to have any kind of sense AT ALL. At least Sunak has some brain cells. If there was a big incident I'd trust him over her as I don't think she'd even be able to walk straight let alone make a sensible decision. To be honest whoever gets in is going to be worse than the absolute disgrace that is Johnson, and that is saying something. They'll be a short lived forgotten leader (hopefully). We need a complete overhaul as I think our whole political system isn't working. 
I'm afraid I can't understand how anyone has any faith in politicians at the moment. They seem to be completely out of touch with not only us plebs, but reality in general.

I do however completely agree with going to actually see who you might be voting for and trying to make an informed decision. We don't all have the same opinions and ideas, and that's what makes humanity interesting! Plus I can voice my opinion freely and am completely happy for others to do the same, even if it's opposite to mine.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

MollySmith said:


> Thank You, I hope you’re keeping well. I fear you are alone with the smiles! Hugs x


I absolutely know I am not alone!  All reasonably well here, yes, thank you.


----------



## MollySmith

Sarah H said:


> Considering her own father wants nothing to do with her why would anyone want to be anywhere near the stupid woman? She made up ridiculous lies that she had a bad upbringing and schooling (not true), claimed that every A level student will get an interview at Oxbridge (never going to happen), and doesn't seem to have any kind of sense AT ALL. At least Sunak has some brain cells. If there was a big incident I'd trust him over her as I don't think she'd even be able to walk straight let alone make a sensible decision. To be honest whoever gets in is going to be worse than the absolute disgrace that is Johnson, and that is saying something. They'll be a short lived forgotten leader (hopefully). We need a complete overhaul as I think our whole political system isn't working.
> I'm afraid I can't understand how anyone has any faith in politicians at the moment. They seem to be completely out of touch with not only us plebs, but reality in general.
> 
> I do however completely agree with going to actually see who you might be voting for and trying to make an informed decision. We don't all have the same opinions and ideas, and that's what makes humanity interesting! Plus I can voice my opinion freely and am completely happy for others to do the same, even if it's opposite to mine.


Totally agree on our system needing an overhaul. It’s run by people who seem to want to be famous, intent on shouting loudly as if in a playground with no thought to the electorate whilst scribbling their autobiography and hoping to cream in the £ via after dinner talks and I’m a Celebrity. All adhering to corrupt rules that worked in past centuries but are less palatable in in a world where we must, and should, demand more. Tweets cannot be hidden, views and past votes are recorded and these people aren’t held to account enough. Boris will survive and people will buy his pointless book despite his inepitude, just as they did with Cameron who was as culpable as Johnson.


----------



## mrs phas

MollySmith said:


> Thank You, I hope you’re keeping well. I fear you are alone with the smiles! Hugs x


More than you think 
I'm so glad you are posting again💞


----------



## huckybuck

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the government but from the comments posted here I can see that my view is not one people want to hear. I regret sharing my thoughts and feelings on this thread and forum. 

Enjoy @MollySmith’s company.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

No no @huckybuck - you and I have political opinions that are poles apart but it doesn’t stop me counting you as my friend. I like to think we can discuss things respectfully - and I feel like that about @MollySmith too. We don’t agree on everything but we have respectful conversations that cause me to think and I have missed her contributions on the forum.

We aren’t all the same, there are lots of people here who vote Conservative, as shown on this thread. You posting how you have actually gives me hope that Conservative party members are taking this vote seriously - which I greatly appreciate. After all, this is our country they want to lead.

I know it’s difficult to lay your thoughts out on a forum - but it is appreciated and it does cause people to think and assess how they feel about issues, which I think is good.


----------



## Blackadder

huckybuck said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the government but from the comments posted here I can see that my view is not one people want to hear. I regret sharing my thoughts and feelings on this thread and forum.
> 
> Enjoy @MollySmith’s company.


Why do you regret anything? People may not want to hear your views/opinions but you have the right to voice them!, it's called free speech & good on you


----------



## MollySmith

huckybuck said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the government but from the comments posted here I can see that my view is not one people want to hear. I regret sharing my thoughts and feelings on this thread and forum.
> 
> Enjoy @MollySmith’s company.


I admire you for going out and finding out more. I have a big old bee in my bonnet about people (me included to be fair, one reason I left) about spending time on a forum going round in circles trying to solve disagreements- it's okay to a point, it's good to offload but sometimes it's good to get out and see more independent views. We are politically miles apart but you went out, you got involved and made a decision based on what is right for you and you're reporting back. @Mrs Funkin reminded me of that! It won't persuade me to vote Tory but you've given an honest appraisal.

I think this party will have to work very hard to win hearts. Like any business when there's a bad CEO or board, the rest are all tarred and feathered too be that by what we think we know on reputation and what the media report. Liz is going to have to work hard, I pity anyone taking on the PM role from any party right now since people will question, and should. All politicians from all parties have a lot to make up for, not just now but in the actions that caused this majority rule by one party that has also lead to this awful state, and more importantly to address the apathy party - non voters - which I'm sure grows bigger everyday.


----------



## Sarah H

huckybuck said:


> Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the government but from the comments posted here I can see that my view is not one people want to hear. I regret sharing my thoughts and feelings on this thread and forum.
> 
> Enjoy @MollySmith’s company.


Why do you regret sharing? I'm glad you 'got off your backside' (your words!) and met her and had a good impression. I've not got a good impression of anyone in the govt (my MP is known locally as George Useless) so I'm hopeful you have a positive feeling. I'd rather people were informed and made a decision opposite to mine than did nothing at all. 
Politics will always divide people but as long as we can respect each other opinions and still allow free speech then there should be no regrets.


----------



## kimthecat

CollieSlave said:


> I greatly admire your touching faith in policies, promises and responses made to questions, offered by someone with a powerful interest in attaining the post of PM! I seem to recall promises made pre-election (£350 million per week for the NHS, for example) that fail to come to fruition post election for one reason or another; but then I was ever the cynic. Hope your faith is justified!


Thats probably true of every PM or wanna be PM Didn't Corbyn promise to pay off student loans , not that it did him any good.


----------



## huckybuck

I used to feel that this forum community was a caring, kind and respectful place. It used to bring me a lot of joy. I used to feel safe and happy to share things amongst people I called friends and colleagues.

When the layout changed and I stumbled on threads that I had not come across before, I thought it would be good to venture out of cat chat for a change and it was enjoyable at first.

However, the backlash I received on here last night, for simply sharing my day, thoughts and feelings, felt incredibly toxic. Perhaps it wasn’t intended as a personal attack but that is certainly how it felt. To be told I was insulting was very upsetting.

You may call me sensitive if you wish though the people who know me would say I am pretty thick skinned.

And to see certain members liking posts that were a direct attack on someone else also left a very bitter taste in my mouth. Sadly not the friendly community I once thought it was.


----------



## Siskin

huckybuck said:


> I used to feel that this forum community was a caring, kind and respectful place. It used to bring me a lot of joy. I used to feel safe and happy to share things amongst people I called friends and colleagues.
> 
> When the layout changed and I stumbled on threads that I had not come across before, I thought it would be good to venture out of cat chat for a change and it was enjoyable at first.
> 
> However, the backlash I received on here last night, for simply sharing my day, thoughts and feelings, felt incredibly toxic. Perhaps it wasn’t intended as a personal attack but that is certainly how it felt. To be told I was insulting was very upsetting.
> 
> You may call me sensitive if you wish though the people who know me would say I am pretty thick skinned.
> 
> And to see certain members liking posts that were a direct attack on someone else also left a very bitter taste in my mouth. Sadly not the friendly community I once thought it was.


I agree with you, I thought it was very unnecessary. I was enjoying the thread as it hadn’t descended into unpleasantness as so many of this type do and it was interesting to hear your views. Sorry that happened to you


----------



## CollieSlave

I belong to a forum where posts relating to politics are forbidden - because of the potential for causing controversy and, perhaps, distress given that political views are likely to be strongly held and very variable! I have little time for politics and have a general mistrust of promises made by ANY political party seeking to win any sort of election (whether a general election or, as we have at the moment, a leadership election). There can be no denying that recent times with the present government have been very controversial and it is inevitable that strong views will be held by a significant fraction of the population. Posts offering or suggesting positive support for a particular political party will, surely, inevitably result in those holding opposing views reacting. Politics on a general friendly (hopefully!) forum is fraught with risks in my view.


----------



## Boxer123

CollieSlave said:


> I belong to a forum where posts relating to politics are forbidden - because of the potential for causing controversy and, perhaps, distress given that political views are likely to be strongly held and very variable! I have little time for politics and have a general mistrust of promises made by ANY political party seeking to win any sort of election (whether a general election or, as we have at the moment, a leadership election). There can be no denying that recent times with the present government have been very controversial and it is inevitable that strong views will be held by a significant fraction of the population. Posts offering or suggesting positive support for a particular political party will, surely, inevitably result in those holding opposing views reacting. Politics on a general friendly (hopefully!) forum is fraught with risks in my view.


I am have very strong views and always tell myself to stay off these threads but somehow don’t ! However I do recognise not everyone shares my views and @huckybuck i am sorry you feel upset actually I think it’s really important we hear different viewpoints . I hope you won’t stop posting. This forum is generally a great place for support.


----------



## Happy Paws2

CollieSlave said:


> I belong to a forum where posts relating to politics are forbidden - because of the potential for causing controversy and, perhaps, distress given that political views are likely to be strongly held and very variable! I have little time for politics and have a general mistrust of promises made by ANY political party seeking to win any sort of election (whether a general election or, as we have at the moment, a leadership election). There can be no denying that recent times with the present government have been very controversial and it is inevitable that strong views will be held by a significant fraction of the population. Posts offering or suggesting positive support for a particular political party will, surely, inevitably result in those holding opposing views reacting. Politics on a general friendly (hopefully!) forum is fraught with risks in my view.


I know there are subjects we don't all agree on but isn't that what happens between friends even virtual ones we have different opinions and sometimes it can get very heated, but never really fall out.


QUOTE="Boxer123, post: 1065941264, member: 1459205"]
I am have very strong views and always tell myself to stay off these threads but somehow don’t ! However I do recognise not everyone shares my views and @huckybuck i am sorry you feel upset actually I think it’s really important we hear different viewpoints . I hope you won’t stop posting. *This forum is generally a great place for support.*
[/QUOTE]

I agree, the support on this forum is wonderful, dog related or personal, there are times I don't what I'd have done with out the people on here.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> I know there are subjects we don't all agree on but isn't that what happens between friends even virtual ones we have different opinions and sometimes it can get very heated, but never really fall out.
> the support on this forum is wonderful, dog related or personal, there are times I don't what I'd have done with out the people on here.


Sarcastic and patronising posts aren't necessary though. People stop posting and it becomes one sided .
Yes ,indeed, wonderful support.


@honeybuck Sorry you are upset . Please don't stop posting .


----------



## kimthecat

The Conservative Party has delayed sending out ballot papers for the leadership election over security concerns.

The party has made changes to its process on the advice of the National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC), part of GCHQ, following warnings that hackers could change members’ votes.

Under the party’s original system, members would be able to vote but change their decision while the ballot remained open but now a unique code will be provided which will only allow one, unchangeable vote.

The ballots had been due to be sent out from Monday but could now arrive as late as Thursday August 11.

Conservative Party delays sending out leadership ballots on security advice (grampianonline.co.uk)


----------



## MollySmith

There is a great book by Jon Alexander, called Citizens. It's worth a read for anyone frustrated by the self-interested, almost consumerism approach to voting that we have. We're in a 'what's in it for me' state of mind with voting (voters and MPs too) and it really should be ‘what is in our collective interests’ otherwise we'll never escape.


----------



## Lurcherlad

“Let he who is without sin ….”










Honestly, how do these things happen?

I manage to meet deadlines (and I don’t have staff to blame) 🙄

No wonder so many of the electorate have little faith in politicians.


----------



## Siskin

They do seem rather forgetful don’t they.
Tax returns have to sent in by the end of January or you are fined, no excuses and certainly no forgetfulness allowed.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

That is exactly right IMO, @Lurcherlad - how can anyone trust those trying to lead the country when they don’t follow correct procedure and lie. At this rate I will be spoiling my ballot, not voting for anyone.


----------



## rona

Even when they are caught out, there are no consequences


----------



## rottieboys

I think we have more serious problems about these grooming gang. They are all in Labour boroughs. The police, social services all knows this is going on, yet no one is doing anything about it. Why, because of the race card. So we are allowing these gangs, to rape children from 12 years onward and Let them broke the law because of race card. Really. We need another police force to are `dedicated to take on these Asian men. I am so disgusted how this country is being run down.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> I think we have more serious problems about these grooming gang. They are all in Labour boroughs. The police, social services all knows this is going on, yet no one is doing anything about it. *Why, because of the race card. *So we are allowing these gangs, to rape children from 12 years onward and Let them broke the law because of race card. Really. We need another police force to are `dedicated to take on these Asian men. I am so disgusted how this country is being run down.


And the race card only seems to work one way. If they were white things would be handled differently.


----------



## rottieboys

They have suppressed us so much about race hate crimes.


Happy Paws2 said:


> And the race card only seems to work one way. If they were white things would be handled differently.


Rishi Sunak has giving an interview with Esther McVey and Philip Davies on GB news, saying he has 2 girls himself and he would sort out these grooming gangs. For a start, they only pick on white girls and why has n't he said or done anything about these Asian gangs before now.


----------



## MollySmith

If I was spoiling my vote, I'd vote Green Party to make a stand about the climate.


----------



## Deguslave

Monster Raving Loony Party if only because they're honest enough to admit it, lol.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Sadly


MollySmith said:


> If I was spoiling my vote, I'd vote Green Party to make a stand about the climate.


I'd possibly do that, yes but I will need to research them well before I go for that option. Maybe a couple of years still anyway.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Mrs Funkin said:


> Sadly
> 
> 
> I'd possibly do that, yes but I will need to research them well before I go for that option. Maybe a couple of years still anyway.


I voted Green after a quick recce of their manifesto (they aren’t a perfect choice either imo) in the last GE as I would not vote for our MP who’s stance on certain issues is opposed to mine, but as a woman I feel strongly that I should vote.

He had a large majority though so it was very unlikely my vote would change the outcome and let the Labour candidate in, otherwise I would have had to have given it more thought.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Sutton Coldfield has been Tory since the end of WWII and most likely much longer than that, so the chances of them losing it is zero, the only reason I voted for my choice is so he/her didn't loss their deposit


----------



## Cleo38

rottieboys said:


> They have suppressed us so much about race hate crimes.
> 
> Rishi Sunak has giving an interview with Esther McVey and Philip Davies on GB news, saying he has 2 girls himself and he would sort out these grooming gangs. For a start, they only pick on white girls and why has n't he said or done anything about these Asian gangs before now.


And how exactly will he do this? The current government aren't doing anything so I don't hold out much hope for any one who is or has been in this government actually giving a sh*t. Members of these gangs have been released back in to the communities from which they abused young girls, current police forces are still not investigating or not releasing information regarding investigations, this is still going on in many areas.

It isn't just about race but also about class IMO. Poor white girls are not considered worthy enough so these hideous crimes are not being investigated or shut quickly. If you follow Maggie Oliver on FB it is disgusting how these young women & girls have been treated & continue to be treated by those in power


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Absolutely @Cleo38 - sadly there is quite the misconception that young white girls in lower socioeconomic groups are “loose” and have been targeted for years. There was a case in Littlehampton (classic area of social deprivation) where young white girls were groomed for four years from 2010. The two non-white men got 18 years IIRC. I used to work with someone who deemed himself still a virgin because he’d only had non-vaginal sex with white girls and could therefore still make a good marriage. How common that is though, I don’t know.

Sorry, gone slightly OT.


----------



## MollySmith

Not that far off topic since the Government are intent on replacing the Humans Rights Bill. Currently, the Human Rights Act empowers ordinary people to challenge abuses of their rights in British courts. Te government wants to introduce a “permission stage” (this link takes you to Rabb's proposal on behalf the Government) that will require people to prove they’ve suffered “significant disadvantage” (again Rabb) before they even get to court. They say this is to ensure that “spurious” and “trivial” cases that don’t merit court time or public resources “do not undermine public confidence in human rights.”

This is all - partly - done to prevent the European Court of Human Rights (nothing to do with EU, in fact Britain helped to set up) intervening on deportation to Rwanda and all us oiks from protesting under the Police and Crime Bill (also amended by this government)


----------



## Boxer123

Has anyone seen the video of Rishi Sunak’s speech where he is telling people he intends to take money from deprived areas and give it to wealthy areas? Am I hearing it wrong ? Is he a reverse Robin Hood ?


----------



## Cleo38

Boxer123 said:


> Has anyone seen the video of Rishi Sunak’s speech where he is telling people he intends to take money from deprived areas and give it to wealthy areas? Am I hearing it wrong ? Is he a reverse Robin Hood ?


@Boxer123, here you go .... 









Rishi Sunak admits taking money from deprived areas


Video shows candidate telling Tories in Tunbridge Wells he started making sure ‘areas like this are getting the funding they deserved’




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Boxer123

Cleo38 said:


> @Boxer123, here you go ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rishi Sunak admits taking money from deprived areas
> 
> 
> Video shows candidate telling Tories in Tunbridge Wells he started making sure ‘areas like this are getting the funding they deserved’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


I wasn’t imagining it then ! No words.


----------



## Jaf

I saw a bit about this, someone saying that Rishi was saying rural areas need funding too, not just urban areas. That's true of course, but not by taking money away. Instead, Rishi, get your rich mates to pay their taxes!


----------



## Deguslave

As someone who lives in one of the most deprived areas of the UK, I can honestly say that I don't think we were given that much funding to begin with, and if we were, it certainly wasn't used on anything the community needed.


----------



## MollySmith

The more I watch the news, the more I wonder how much more before we break and storm Westminster. There was the protests in 2014 - well loads now I look it up. I remember going to London on really old railway stock with no air conditioning as Greater Anglia didn’t want the new trains vandalised.

Often protest is galvanised by heat but it feels like railway strikes, cost of _everything_ including fuel and Covid is designed to keep us plodding on. I think I’ve lost the will to shout. It’s another day in a post Brexit, Tory land... it’s hot, nobody in charge much cares about burning to a crisp and I miss rain. God, I miss rain.


----------



## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> It’s another day in a post Brexit, Tory land... it’s hot, nobody in charge much cares about burning to a crisp and I miss rain. God, I miss rain.


The Tories have never really cared about the ordinary people just their mates with money.

They don't care that working people are queueing up at food banks or going without food so their children can have a meal, we are one of the richest countries in the world and the government doesn't care about it's people.


----------



## huckybuck

Happy Paws2 said:


> The Tories have never really cared about the ordinary people just their mates with money


I am a Tory. 
Another sweeping generalisation. 
And insult. 
Nice.


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> I am a Tory.
> Another sweeping generalisation.
> And insult.
> Nice.


As soon as you start talking about politics on a forum you are bound to meet people with opposite views, often forcefully put.


----------



## huckybuck

OrientalSlave said:


> As soon as you start talking about politics on a forum you are bound to meet people with opposite views, often forcefully put.


I have no problem with opposing views. I have issues with personal insult.


----------



## Boxer123

huckybuck said:


> I am a Tory.
> Another sweeping generalisation.
> And insult.
> Nice.


I think @Happy Paws2 is referring to those in government. I find it difficult to believe they do care when the evidence points to the contrary.





__





‘We’re terrified at what we’re seeing’: food banks tell of soaring demand | Food banks | The Guardian


Thousands more households, many with two working parents, are turning to the UK’s food banks as the cost of living crisis deepens




amp.theguardian.com





Unfortunately there are a lot of people becoming disillusioned with politics all together. I have no idea who I will vote for next election.


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> I have no problem with opposing views. I have issues with personal insult.


Unfortunately to people with strongly held beliefs, opposing views can sound like insults.

As you disagree I presume you have evidence to the contrary? Why not share that instead of becoming 'insulted of Hertfordshire'?


----------



## QOTN

huckybuck said:


> I have no problem with opposing views. I have issues with personal insult.


I really don't think there has been any personal insult here. 'Personal' meaning is *'belonging to or affecting a particular person rather than anyone else.'*

I hope nobody wanted to insult you personally but if they did surely they would have been much more direct. (That from my observations on this forum!)


----------



## huckybuck

OrientalSlave said:


> Unfortunately to people with strongly held beliefs, opposing views can sound like insults.
> 
> As you disagree I presume you have evidence to the contrary? Why not share that instead of becoming 'insulted of Hertfordshire'?


I live in Buckinghamshire not Hertfordshire.
I care about everyone no matter how much money they have or don’t have.
I am a Tory.


----------



## huckybuck

QOTN said:


> I really don't think there has been any personal insult here. 'Personal' meaning is *'belonging to or affecting a particular person rather than anyone else.'*
> 
> I hope nobody wanted to insult you personally but if they did surely they would have been much more direct. (That from my observations on this forum!)


The Tories. I am a Tory. This includes me. This affects me. There are not many other Tories on here. It is personal.


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> I live in Buckinghamshire not Hertfordshire.
> I care about everyone no matter how much money they have or don’t have.
> I am a Tory.


Close. The border ran along a road very near where I grew up. 

You care, but do all Tories care? What's the evidence?


----------



## huckybuck

I could retort that everyone other than Tories are rude and ignorant (but I would not say such a thing because I know it’s not true and wouldn’t want to insult people). 


OrientalSlave said:


> Close. The border ran along a road very near where I grew up.
> 
> You care, but do all Tories care? What's the evidence?


One cares. That’s not all Tories.


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> I could retort that everyone other than Tories are rude and ignorant (but I would not say such a thing because I know it’s not true and wouldn’t want to insult people).
> 
> One cares. That’s not all Tories.


And the accusation was against all Tories. Whilst you care, many Tories don't - or seem not - to care, so 'Tories don't care' is it's an easy conclusion to jump to. Do the majority of Tories care or not?


----------



## Boxer123

huckybuck said:


> I could retort that everyone other than Tories are rude and ignorant (but I would not say such a thing because I know it’s not true and wouldn’t want to insult people).
> 
> One cares. That’s not all Tories.


Should we be using the term, ‘the government’ ? I don’t want anyone to be offended but how can we discuss this ? Ultimately the cost of living crisis will affect people on this forum the government are refusing to meet to discuss the issue.


----------



## Sarah H

Generalisations are just that - impersonal but can hit a nerve if you are part of that generalisation. However are you in power making decisions? If not it probably wasn't directed at you so don't worry about it.
Tories are in power and making the decisions (really bad ones IMO), so of course you might feel insulted when we say we don't like what they are doing to this country because you align yourself with those making the decisions. The things the 2 leader candidates have said are (again IMO) absolutely appalling and also unachievable. Truss seems to have no idea about money or anything in general, and Sunak is just looking out for his rich friends and family. Neither should be anywhere near the seat of power!
Get them out, all of them, and start again I say! Riots really aren't a bad idea at this point.


----------



## QOTN

I am not sure it is particularly helpful to question whether the Government cares. Perhaps they do but actions speak louder than words.


----------



## Happy Paws2

huckybuck said:


> I am a Tory.
> Another sweeping generalisation.
> And insult.
> Nice.



I was talking about tory governments, they have never cared about us.


----------



## Psygon

It's sort of an interesting question... Does the government care? And apologies in advance as I reckon this is a crazy ramble through my brain on this topic  

I think that they think they care. But the way they try to show they care is tactical rather than strategic. By that I mean that they (and this applies to all governments) make policy and legislative decisions based on a need right now without considering the long term implication of what they are doing. Meaning the things they do rarely seen to have the desired outcome 6months, 12months and longer into the future. 

So I think if the Government does care, they only care about now. Which unfortunately to me then looks like they only care about being elected - rather than caring about people. And I'm not sure this is just conservative governments either. I think they are just front and centre of the experience right now.

Both Sunak and Truss are campaigning on things they would do to help with inflation and cost of living - trying to show they care. But to me it's very much a concept of one time fixes that have knock on impact in the future. They feel like a knee jerk reaction to a situation rather than thinking about the long term. That worries me. I also don't think that Labour have shown any idea on what they would do for any of this either - either short or long term.

I should say as well: I do think they should be offering some quick solutions, they are needed, but I think they should be backed up by we'll do this one thing now and then we will do this extra long term thing to stop this happening in the future.

There has been a bit in Sunaks campaigning I've liked, when he's talking about what impact policy decisions will have on his children's future. But mostly I've just sat there thinking what impact will all of these ideas have?

Reversing the NI increase - great right now, gets a bit of money in our pockets. Does absolutely nothing for the spiralling costs of health and social care and just delays doing something about it. 

Green levy on energy is the same - great right now. But what does that actually mean for the future as energy prices continue to sky rocket and investment in green energy isn't there?

Introducing regional pay boards for the public sector (realise this one has been dropped) - great right now, saves some money. But what does it mean for 'levelling' up, what inequity does it create when some people can afford to move regions for a new job and others (probably women with families (generalisation)) can't. What does it do in an organisation when people are being paid different amounts to do the same job? 

Cutting 91,000 civil service jobs, great right now (questionable) as it saves some money. What does it mean when you want to then repeal EU legislation and don't have the people needed to do that? What does it mean for the services you'll have to cut when you don't have the staff to run them? 

I'll stop there... as I am definitely rambling. Sorry


----------



## O2.0

Meh, people on here make generalizations about Americans all the time, sometimes I may say something, most of the time I just ignore it. It's not meant to be personal, and if it is meant to be personal, that person probably isn't worth my time anyway  

Or like Dolly Parton said "I'm not offended by Dumb Blonde jokes because I know I'm not dumb. And I also know I'm not a blonde."  

That said, ever since Brexit, political discussions online are pretty much a cesspool and I've learned to stay well clear


----------



## Cleo38

I don't believe many politicians (if any!) really care about anything except their own careers regardless of which party they represent.


----------



## Siskin

To keep it absolutely fair, I don’t think Labour cares as much as like to think they do. Or rather they only care for a certain strata of people and that doesn’t include farmers, the countryside and those that live there.

Only my opinion of course


----------



## Boxer123

Siskin said:


> To keep it absolutely fair, I don’t think Labour cares as much as like to think they do. Or rather they only care for a certain strata of people and that doesn’t include farmers, the countryside and those that live there.
> 
> Only my opinion of course


I agree I don’t know who to vote for next time.
I don’t actually mind if they don’t care but would like them to be competent. At the moment we have in party fighting, a zombie government and a weak opposition.


----------



## Sarah H

There was a website in the last (possibly one before that) GE where you were given loads of different questions about policies and stuff, and at the end it showed you which parties your choices aligned with most. I got LD, and Green mostly, then Lab, and right at the bottom was Tory and UKIP. So if you're unsure I'm sure there are ways to find out which parties align most with your beliefs.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> Should we be using the term, ‘the government’ ? I don’t want anyone to be offended but how can we discuss this ? Ultimately the cost of living crisis will affect people on this forum the government are refusing to meet to discuss the issue.


I think we should use Government.

Parties are driven by a manifesto which is endorsed by whips and therefore the MPs of that party endorse the Government. They can rebel but I take a bit of issue with the inference that some care, like you say.

The government had the opportunity to table an emergency budget to aid families this year and they voted against it. The voting records of MPs in the party, their inability to clamp down or take action on energy companies which this party privatised, and worse allowing Johnson to knowingly hold parties and still take years to remove him is not caring. Not one bit. If they care, show it and leave or change it. I see no challenges, just more of the same.

It is their dammed job to care, any party and to stand by their manifesto and put people first. That people are facing poverty and making choices between food or power is awful. It shouldn’t have to be like this.


----------



## MollySmith

Sarah H said:


> There was a website in the last (possibly one before that) GE where you were given loads of different questions about policies and stuff, and at the end it showed you which parties your choices aligned with most. I got LD, and Green mostly, then Lab, and right at the bottom was Tory and UKIP. So if you're unsure I'm sure there are ways to find out which parties align most with your beliefs.


Yes, it was very useful.


----------



## MollySmith

It‘s such a weird set up isn’t it? People standing opposite each other yelling like a playground, making big decisions in a culture based on out dated rules. I just looked up Black Rod. It’s a largely ceremonial position. As much as I like history and recognise its part in our culture, the dodgy credentials it lends to current politics which enables the imbalance we have in all parties so only the rich make it, is wrong. It prevents humans from becoming MPs - who’d want to be decent and sit in that culture? 

Maybe I’m a bit naive or a dreamer but it would be truly glorious if the parties had something in common and worked to a common goal instead of a blame game which puts the planet and us in danger.


----------



## Psygon

MollySmith said:


> It‘s such a weird set up isn’t it? People standing opposite each other yelling like a playground, making big decisions in a culture based on out dated rules. I just looked up Black Rod. It’s a largely ceremonial position. As much as I like history and recognise its part in our culture, the dodgy credentials it lends to current politics which enables the imbalance we have in all parties so only the rich make it, is wrong. It prevents humans from becoming MPs - who’d want to be decent and sit in that culture?
> 
> Maybe I’m a bit naive or a dreamer but it would be truly glorious if the parties had something in common and worked to a common goal instead of a blame game which puts the planet and us in danger.


They do all have a common goal... It's to get in power and stay there 😂


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> They do all have a common goal... It's to get in power and stay there 😂


And get a reputation tardy enough for after dinner speeches or a memoir after they've been sacked


----------



## Deguslave

Most of them make their millions after they've left office, so they're not interested in the long haul of running the country.


----------



## MollySmith

Ah you know what... I think I might just sign myself up and become one. Anyone fancy Fizz with Liz Molly? I'm sure a few drinkies and a cake, I can bribe you all.


----------



## MollySmith

Deguslave said:


> Most of them make their millions after they've left office, so they're not interested in the long haul of running the country.


Unless one is Jacob Rees Mogg, here's Wiki...

_Rees-Mogg was born in Hammersmith, London, and educated at Eton College, before studying history at Trinity College, Oxford, where he was President of the Oxford University Conservative Association. He went on to work in the City of London and in Hong Kong for Lloyd George Management until 2007, when he co-founded the hedge fund management business Somerset Capital Management LLP.[2][3] He amassed a significant fortune: it was estimated at between £55 million and £150 million in 2016, including his wife's expected inheritance_


----------



## Cleo38

Psygon said:


> They do all have a common goal... It's to get in power and stay there 😂


Yep! I always think of the quote from Billy Connolly 

*“The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one.”*


----------



## MollySmith

Deleting the media file as I think that whilst the video makes me spit, it's somewhat inflammatory... and appears HUGE on the forum. I shall quietly link here in case anyone want to view instead.


----------



## Jaf

I think politicians are on a different planet to me. They might start off with good intentions, I don't know. But they all end up on massive wages, with massive allowances and cheap booze down their club. I know of an mp in London who has a paid-for second flat as it's too far/ not safe to travel home at night.

How about making public transport safe for all? You know with police and good lighting?


----------



## rottieboys

My father-in-law fought for this country, If only he could see how quick its gone down hill .No one cares about anythings. It has changed big time.


----------



## MollySmith

Jaf said:


> I think politicians are on a different planet to me. They might start off with good intentions, I don't know. But they all end up on massive wages, with massive allowances and cheap booze down their club. I know of an mp in London who has a paid-for second flat as it's too far/ not safe to travel home at night.
> 
> How about making public transport safe for all? You know with police and good lighting?


No more second homes until everyone has one is my feeling and yes, how 'lucky' he has the money to get a second flat.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> My father-in-law fought for this country, If only he could see how quick its gone down hill .No one cares about anythings. It has changed big time.


I disagree with the statement no one cares about anything. I think this thread has shown quite a few times how much people care about things. Even if we don't all agree on the politics of it, there are lots of instances where people are highlighting the things they care about that they don't feel various politicians care about - and the ones they think politicians do care about.

Has the country changed a lot since your father in law fought to defend the country? Of course it has, things move on, industry and technology has changed. Society has changed. I'm sure back in the 1930s people were bemoaning how much the country had changed since Queen Victoria sat on the throne. Has the country got worse? I think the issues have become more intense recently, I don't think the way people are reacting to things says the country is fundamentally worse than it was 20, 30, 50 years ago. It's just different. The way people react to the issues is also driven by the experiences they have gained. 

So yeah it's different...


----------



## kimthecat

I think it was mistake to force Boris to resign at this stage . This leadership race is distracting and no one is dealing with anything. I think it added to the chaos.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I think it was mistake to force Boris to resign at this stage . This leadership race is distracting and no one is dealing with anything. I think it added to the chaos.


I hate to admit it but I think you are right, the leadership race has taken over and nothing is been done.


----------



## stuaz

kimthecat said:


> I think it was mistake to force Boris to resign at this stage . This leadership race is distracting and no one is dealing with anything. I think it added to the chaos.


I agree, sort of. I think Boris was right to resign, but at the same time I think they should have sped up the leadership process so we could avoid the ‘zombie government’ we have at the moment.


----------



## Arny

kimthecat said:


> I think it was mistake to force Boris to resign at this stage . This leadership race is distracting and no one is dealing with anything. I think it added to the chaos.


They're on summer break so nothing would be happening anyway.
Plus I think technically he's still prime minister till they choose the next one as he refused to have an interim leader.


----------



## OrientalSlave

@Psygon you aren't rambling. You are pointing out it's not easy.

Reducing NI & tax does nothing for those on low incomes who don't pay tax or pay very little, and are the hardest hit. Reducing VAT would to a small degree, but if most of your spending is on food then it doesn't help as most food is zero-rated.

The Tories had headline policies of slashing Income tax, but were also masters of increasing indirect taxes.


----------



## OrientalSlave

stuaz said:


> I agree, sort of. I think Boris was right to resign, but at the same time I think they should have sped up the leadership process so we could avoid the ‘zombie government’ we have at the moment.


He only resigned because he was forced to


----------



## Psygon

stuaz said:


> I agree, sort of. I think Boris was right to resign, but at the same time I think they should have sped up the leadership process so we could avoid the ‘zombie government’ we have at the moment.


They could have avoided the 'zombie government' by just getting on with doing stuff. Other PM's who have remained as PM during a leadership contest have continued to push through policy and act on things. I realise that technically it's the summer break, but that shouldn't stop things happening when stuff needs to happen. And really is there anyone that thinks that hanging about and doing nothing is the right response at the moment?

It feels a bit petulant that we have this 'zombie government' while we await the result of the leadership contest.


----------



## Deguslave

It does make me wonder if we'll have to endure another zombie government if the new leader calls a general election. Will they again decide that they can't do anything until the votes are counted?


----------



## Cully

I'm losing interest the longer this facade continues. For goodness sake get on with this tit for tatting, make your choice, then do what should have been done and let the people decide who they trust to govern.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> I disagree with the statement no one cares about anything. I think this thread has shown quite a few times how much people care about things. Even if we don't all agree on the politics of it, there are lots of instances where people are highlighting the things they care about that they don't feel various politicians care about - and the ones they think politicians do care about.
> 
> Has the country changed a lot since your father in law fought to defend the country? Of course it has, things move on, industry and technology has changed. Society has changed. I'm sure back in the 1930s people were bemoaning how much the country had changed since Queen Victoria sat on the throne. Has the country got worse? I think the issues have become more intense recently, I don't think the way people are reacting to things says the country is fundamentally worse than it was 20, 30, 50 years ago. It's just different. The way people react to the issues is also driven by the experiences they have gained.
> 
> So yeah it's different...


We voted for what government we want . What have they all done. Nothing. Yes of course technology has changed everything. Soon we will have no shops on out high street. People flying everywhere in the world. Is that a good thing, I'm not sure. Opening our borders to everyone, No, that is not working. We have people who are homeless here ,without taking everybody who wants to come to UK. Our NHS is crying out for more money. Perhaps, when my father-in-law came back after fighting for his country. He also was awarded a military medal which he would not talk about. Lost many friends. He was never the same person. If we had a war today, how many young men would sign up? Life in the UK is changing.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> We voted for what government we want . What have they all done. Nothing. Yes of course technology has changed everything. Soon we will have no shops on out high street. People flying everywhere in the world. Is that a good thing, I'm not sure. Opening our borders to everyone, No, that is not working. We have people who are homeless here ,without taking everybody who wants to come to UK. Our NHS is crying out for more money. Perhaps, when my father-in-law came back after fighting for his country. He also was awarded a military medal which he would not talk about. Lost many friends. He was never the same person. If we had a war today, how many young men would sign up? Life in the UK is changing.


Closing our borders also doesn't work, as should be evident by the various industries that have been crying out since Brexit about their in ability to recruit for needed positions. And yes, I appreciate our borders haven't closed totally. But changes brought in since Brexit (and the pandemic of course) has made it harder to recruit candidates from over seas. And the result has been industries demanding change. 

I'm also not sure that you can draw such a concrete cause and effect line between the UK's immigration policy and the number of homeless people. There are many complex reasons that have caused homelessness in this country. I mean I could sit here and argue that right to buy, a much loved Thatcher policy, is a significant cause of homelessness. A lot of the social housing that was sold to people keen to get on the housing ladder was never replaced. So future generations who were struggling dont have social housing to rely on. Is that a bigger impact on homelessness than immigration... it's certainly a considerable intergenerational injustice. Anyway, I'm not sure if it's a bigger or smaller cause. I guess my point is there is no way you can single out one piece of government policy and say that is the cause of something like homelessness.


----------



## rottieboys

Our homeless people needs somewhere to have a roof over their heads, why can't they have hot meals and mobile phone plus money. These people are struggling ,what ever their story is. But, anyone coming across the channel get all this free. This has got to stop. We cannot let this continue. People coming here legally and accepted. We welcome them. We cannot build enough housing for everyone. Yes, people did buy their council houses on discount. My friend bought her flat and got a lovely discount, she then bought an house which she wanted. Good for her. It was a good thing for people to do this.


----------



## Boxer123

rottieboys said:


> Our homeless people needs somewhere to have a roof over their heads, why can't they have hot meals and mobile phone plus money. These people are struggling ,what ever their story is. But, anyone coming across the channel get all this free. This has got to stop. We cannot let this continue. People coming here legally and accepted. We welcome them. We cannot build enough housing for everyone. Yes, people did buy their council houses on discount. My friend bought her flat and got a lovely discount, she then bought an house which she wanted. Good for her. It was a good thing for people to do this.


Where’s your evidence that immigrants are getting homes over homeless people here ? As @Psygon said the issue of homelessness is complex with often many issues at play.
So it’s ok for your friend to get a state funded discount but someone who is so desperate they risk their life in a dingy to get here can’t get help ?

The difference between us & them ? Luck. We were lucky to be born in a safe country. If war broke out I imagine you to would seek safe passage.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Our homeless people needs somewhere to have a roof over their heads, why can't they have hot meals and mobile phone plus money. These people are struggling ,what ever their story is. But, anyone coming across the channel get all this free. This has got to stop. We cannot let this continue. People coming here legally and accepted. We welcome them. We cannot build enough housing for everyone. Yes, people did buy their council houses on discount. My friend bought her flat and got a lovely discount, she then bought an house which she wanted. Good for her. It was a good thing for people to do this.


First up just to be clear I didn't say that right to buy wasn't good for the people that got to buy their social housing at a discount. I'm well aware that for the people who did this it has helped them and their families. The problem is that the government never replaced the housing it sold.

That aside, I do feel it's worth pointing out that this idea that people illegally coming into the UK are reaping huge amounts from the UK government in benefits and handouts, getting homes over UK people etc isn't true. 

Those that are genuine asylum seekers do get some money to cover their basic needs. It's something small like £40 a week for each member of the family. They are also not entitled to get support from the rest of the benefit system, like job seekers allowance. Those that are illegal and not asylum seekers find it pretty hard to access the benefits system as they wouldn't have the ID required to get anywhere near it. Obviously if people are dealing in forged ID that's different, but I suspect in the grand scheme of things that's not happening large scale. Do those in detention centres waiting deportation get mobile phones and a roof over their heads while they wait being deported? Yeah they do ... So that is accurate. But I'm not sure how that is causing people in the UK who are struggling to not get homes?

Do they impact UK finances in other ways? Yes... They are a tax burden due to the policy that has to be enacted to deal with the issue of illegal immigration... I'm assuming they may at points receive Nhs care... And the extra border officers etc to deal with the issue costs money. So yeah, we pay for them through taxation...


----------



## rottieboys

Boxer123 said:


> Where’s your evidence that immigrants are getting homes over homeless people here ? As @Psygon said the issue of homelessness is complex with often many issues at play.
> So it’s ok for your friend to get a state funded discount but someone who is so desperate they risk their life in a dingy to get here can’t get help ?
> 
> The difference between us & them ? Luck. We were lucky to be born in a safe country. If war broke out I imagine you to would seek safe passage.


Where did I say that they get housing over the homeless person. We have see it on the telly, getting off the border force boats with blankets on. They are escorted to a centre,Where they are given hot meals and money. Why is't the government doing this for our homeless people .Risk their life in a dingy. Yeah, when was the last time anyone died. They are picked up straight away. France is a safe place. The trouble is France do not give too many handouts like UK. Yes, my friend did well being in social housing , where she and many other was given the chance to buy their property. People have worked so hard to get on the property ladder. My daughter works so hard to pay for their ridiculous mortgage payments, getting no benefits at all. I wish all those people who are struggling to pay for their heating, shopping etc to get all the benefits they can claim for. Why should people coming across the channels get it for nothing. Risking their life, don't make me laugh.


----------



## Snoringbear

In reality, asylum seekers get less than is often portrayed in the media:








How much do asylum seekers living in hotels get to live on per week? - Full Fact


Some are eligible to receive £8 per week to cover costs for items not provided by their accommodation.




fullfact.org





Basically the same as France tbh:





What social rights do I have as an asylum seeker in France? | Informations pour les personnes exilées







domasile.info


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Where did I say that they get housing over the homeless person. We have see it on the telly, getting off the border force boats with blankets on. They are escorted to a centre,Where they are given hot meals and money. Why is't the government doing this for our homeless people .Risk their life in a dingy. Yeah, when was the last time anyone died. They are picked up straight away. France is a safe place. The trouble is France do not give too many handouts like UK. Yes, my friend did well being in social housing , where she and many other was given the chance to buy their property. People have worked so hard to get on the property ladder. My daughter works so hard to pay for their ridiculous mortgage payments, getting no benefits at all. I wish all those people who are struggling to pay for their heating, shopping etc to get all the benefits they can claim for. Why should people coming across the channels get it for nothing. Risking their life, don't make me laugh.


Just to be clear @rottieboys - what support do you think a homeless person can access? I'm assuming based on the above that you think they can basically get nothing, and that both local and central government just leave them to be homeless and ignore them? Which isn't true, although there are huge complexities in how they access support which isn't helped by them being homeless, support is available (and just editing to add that I think there should be more done to remove these complexities in the policy to make that support easier). But as mentioned earlier the complex issue of homelessness in this country means a one size fits all approach, such as with illegal immigrants, wouldn't work.

I'd hazard a guess as well that should the government decide that the policy should be that they open hostels and hotels and send all the people currently rough sleeping into them there would be an uproar from the communities they were sent to based on the perception of homeless people being alcoholics, drug abusers etc. I'd also hazard a guess that at least a percentage of the homeless are migrants who came here illegally and, since they can't access our benefits system, have no where to live...

And again... The amount of support these illegal immigrants can access is actually very low. And definitely a lot smaller than people realise based on how the media have spun what happens in reality.


----------



## Boxer123

rottieboys said:


> Where did I say that they get housing over the homeless person. We have see it on the telly, getting off the border force boats with blankets on. They are escorted to a centre,Where they are given hot meals and money. Why is't the government doing this for our homeless people .Risk their life in a dingy. Yeah, when was the last time anyone died. They are picked up straight away. France is a safe place. The trouble is France do not give too many handouts like UK. Yes, my friend did well being in social housing , where she and many other was given the chance to buy their property. People have worked so hard to get on the property ladder. My daughter works so hard to pay for their ridiculous mortgage payments, getting no benefits at all. I wish all those people who are struggling to pay for their heating, shopping etc to get all the benefits they can claim for. Why should people coming across the channels get it for nothing. Risking their life, don't make me laugh.


Your really telling me people don’t die ? Channel deaths: What do we know so far?.

Im confused by your post. Could the government do more for our homeless absolutely but the reason the don’t has nothing to do with immigration. Your daughter not getting benefits is nothing to do with immigration.


----------



## Jobeth

rottieboys said:


> Where did I say that they get housing over the homeless person. We have see it on the telly, getting off the border force boats with blankets on. They are escorted to a centre,Where they are given hot meals and money. Why is't the government doing this for our homeless people .Risk their life in a dingy. Yeah, when was the last time anyone died. They are picked up straight away. France is a safe place. The trouble is France do not give too many handouts like UK. Yes, my friend did well being in social housing , where she and many other was given the chance to buy their property. People have worked so hard to get on the property ladder. My daughter works so hard to pay for their ridiculous mortgage payments, getting no benefits at all. I wish all those people who are struggling to pay for their heating, shopping etc to get all the benefits they can claim for. Why should people coming across the channels get it for nothing. Risking their life, don't make me laugh.


Maybe you should read this article Channel migrants tragedy: Terrifying final hours of their fatal journey - BBC News. At least 30 died (including a 7 year old child and two teenagers) crossing the channel during that incident in December 2021. This is despite them calling several times for help.


----------



## Psygon

Record numbers of people faced homelessness due to ‘no-fault’ evictions at the start of 2022 - The Big Issue


New figures show a 10 per cent rise in people calling on councils for support to avoid falling into homelessness at the start of 2022



www.bigissue.com





Just to pick up on what I read as an assumption that homeless people don't get support. This article from the Big Issue discusses people falling into homelessness, and some of the data from late 2021 and early 2022. Despite the fact that the article doesn't make for happy reading it does mention that just over 74 thousand households were supported from being made homeless. so yes - the government does support homeless people, but perhaps doesn't go far enough and could do more.


----------



## rottieboys

My daughter cannot get benefits, they do not qualified for any of it. What I understand, the homeless do not get help unless they have address. Yes they can go into these hostels and get free food. But they don't go if they have a dog with them. No one has died for a long time in British waters. Why take the risk if they are in France. I know of a case where this lady who other stayed her visa by 8 years. Staying with different families on and off. Cash in hand doing markets selling. But it all came to an head when she had a stroke. NHS service was first class. After her hospital stay, she was given one bedroom flat in extra care housing. Rent paid for by the tax payers. She had to go to the Home office who granted her stay in Britain . She had everything paid for such as heating, electric.She was given £60 a week. Not bad for someone who never paid into the systems. I am sure she would rather not had the stroke, but this is just one case. I believe we have many more.


----------



## rottieboys

We have people going to food banks, elderly people not putting their heating on. We are struggling with cost of living. We need help now. We cannot help the world.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> Where did I say that they get housing over the homeless person. We have see it on the telly, getting off the border force boats with blankets on. They are escorted to a centre,Where they are given hot meals and money. Why is't the government doing this for our homeless people .Risk their life in a dingy. Yeah, when was the last time anyone died. They are picked up straight away. France is a safe place. The trouble is France do not give too many handouts like UK. Yes, my friend did well being in social housing , where she and many other was given the chance to buy their property. People have worked so hard to get on the property ladder. My daughter works so hard to pay for their ridiculous mortgage payments, getting no benefits at all. I wish all those people who are struggling to pay for their heating, shopping etc to get all the benefits they can claim for. Why should people coming across the channels get it for nothing. Risking their life, don't make me laugh.



I follow The Big Issue Foundation view (they, after all are pretty experienced). That is not to pitch homeless people against homeless people from abroad, both are fleeing unspeakable situations. All are human. The Big Issue like Mungo and other charities has information on why an imbalance and judgement isn’t helpful. I’m not going on debate it myself, these are the escalations I walk away from now.

You can find lots of information on how The Big Issue supports vendors on their website. You can also donate and buy a subscription to their education all and informative magazine which goes to helping a homeless person. Here‘s the link. 


Opinion Archives


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> My daughter cannot get benefits, they do not qualified for any of it. What I understand, the homeless do not get help unless they have address. Yes they can go into these hostels and get free food. But they don't go if they have a dog with them. No one has died for a long time in British waters. Why take the risk if they are in France. I know of a case where this lady who other stayed her visa by 8 years. Staying with different families on and off. Cash in hand doing markets selling. But it all came to an head when she had a stroke. NHS service was first class. After her hospital stay, she was given one bedroom flat in extra care housing. Rent paid for by the tax payers. She had to go to the Home office who granted her stay in Britain . She had everything paid for such as heating, electric.She was given £60 a week. Not bad for someone who never paid into the systems. I am sure she would rather not had the stroke, but this is just one case. I believe we have many more.


homeless _people_ 

You seem to know an awful lot of confidential information about this lady. Are you sure it’s not gossip.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> homeless _people_
> 
> You seem to know an awful lot of confidential information about this lady. Are you sure it’s not gossip.


I knew her. She got herself in a situation and could not get out of it. No names given by me.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> My daughter cannot get benefits, they do not qualified for any of it.


I can't either - but I don't blame migrants for the fact my income is over the threshold for receiving benefits (and apologies, but that sounds like the link you're making... if it's not feel free to correct me!).


rottieboys said:


> No one has died for a long time in British waters.


People have died crossing the channel this year, 2022. Many people die throughout the course of their journey to reach the UK - it's not just at the end of the journey crossing the channel. 



rottieboys said:


> I know of a case where this lady who other stayed her visa by 8 years. Staying with different families on and off. Cash in hand doing markets selling. But it all came to an head when she had a stroke. NHS service was first class. After her hospital stay, she was given one bedroom flat in extra care housing. Rent paid for by the tax payers. She had to go to the Home office who granted her stay in Britain . She had everything paid for such as heating, electric.She was given £60 a week.


Obviously I don't know the specifics of this case, and what happened here. But the fact that she was able to remain suggests there is more to this story and this individuals circumstances. In a lot of cases migrants to the UK have to pay for some healthcare. There is a guide here which details what is meant to be free. Note that it wouldn't ordinarily cover the type of care this story covers - unless there were exceptional circumstances.
NHS entitlements: migrant health guide


----------



## rottieboys

As for the homeless people. We had one sitting outside a shop with his dog. He did not have anywhere to go. The shop keepers would buy him coffee and even food. We knew he stayed inside shop doorway at night. Then, one day he was gone. He was found dead wrapped in his blanket. Dog still by his side. This was also reported in our local news. He was having such a rough time.


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> Record numbers of people faced homelessness due to ‘no-fault’ evictions at the start of 2022 - The Big Issue
> 
> 
> New figures show a 10 per cent rise in people calling on councils for support to avoid falling into homelessness at the start of 2022
> 
> 
> 
> www.bigissue.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to pick up on what I read as an assumption that homeless people don't get support. This article from the Big Issue discusses people falling into homelessness, and some of the data from late 2021 and early 2022. Despite the fact that the article doesn't make for happy reading it does mention that just over 74 thousand households were supported from being made homeless. so yes - the government does support homeless people, but perhaps doesn't go far enough and could do more.


Nope it doesn’t do enough. There are numerous links on The Big Issue to how Levelling up money is being spent in London








Levelling up? Public spending has increased most in London as the north falls further behind - The Big Issue


The spending gap between the north and London has doubled since the government introduced its flagship levelling up agenda in 2019



www.bigissue.com





And its inextricably linked to the pandemic and those who were just about coping but Covid and now the cost of living crisis will tip into poverty and ultimately homelessness, which when pitched against the expenses wasted on PPE and other stuff tax payers wasted money on (@rottieboys I’m happy to pay for the welfare of those fleeing war zones but I really object to paying for Govt **** ups and their inability to tax Amazon et al which would’ve made a huge difference)








UK poverty: the facts, effects and solutions in a cost of living crisis - The Big Issue


The cost of living crisis is driving disadvantaged households further into hardship. These are the UK poverty facts you need to know



www.bigissue.com





And in addition how developers aren’t providing enough social housing, and Thatcher screwing up the housing system








George Clarke: 'We are on the verge of a poverty pandemic' - The Big Issue


An architect, TV presenter and now a Big Issue ambassador, George Clarke explains why he's backing the Ride Out Recession Alliance



www.bigissue.com





I could go on... The Big Issue receive donations from my business each year. It’s brilliant but I wish it didn’t have cause to exist.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> I can't either - but I don't blame migrants for the fact my income is over the threshold for receiving benefits (and apologies, but that sounds like the link you're making... if it's not feel free to correct me!).
> 
> People have died crossing the channel this year, 2022. Many people die throughout the course of their journey to reach the UK - it's not just at the end of the journey crossing the channel.
> 
> 
> Obviously I don't know the specifics of this case, and what happened here. But the fact that she was able to remain suggests there is more to this story and this individuals circumstances. In a lot of cases migrants to the UK have to pay for some healthcare. There is a guide here which details what is meant to be free. Note that it wouldn't ordinarily cover the type of care this story covers - unless there were exceptional circumstances.
> NHS entitlements: migrant health guide


This lady had no income, Yes they do make exceptional circumstances. This is a true story. The lady was unable to care for herself and needed help with all her care.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> As for the homeless people. We had one sitting outside a shop with his dog. He did not have anywhere to go. The shop keepers would buy him coffee and even food. We knew he stayed inside shop doorway at night. Then, one day he was gone. He was found dead wrapped in his blanket. Dog still by his side. This was also reported in our local news. He was having such a rough time.


Street link may have helped. Here’s the advice on how to help someone.









What should you do if you see a homeless person? - The Big Issue


With homelessness still a big issue in Britain, here's exactly how you can help when you see someone rough sleeping or otherwise in need



www.bigissue.com


----------



## rottieboys

I can't either - but I don't blame migrants for the fact my income is over the threshold for receiving benefits (and apologies, but that sounds like the link you're making... if it's not feel free to correct me!).
[/QUOTE]
Did I say they blame the migrants, no I did not. I am annoyed that she and her family are working very hard to survive. Like all other young families are. But, I do think this has got to stop. We cannot continues having thousands arriving.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> I can't either - but I don't blame migrants for the fact my income is over the threshold for receiving benefits (and apologies, but that sounds like the link you're making... if it's not feel free to correct me!).


Did I say they blame the migrants, no I did not. I am annoyed that she and her family are working very hard to survive. Like all other young families are. But, I do think this has got to stop. We cannot continues having thousands arriving.
[/QUOTE]

_"But, anyone coming across the channel get all this free.This has got to stop. We cannot let this continue"._

Kinda sounds like you are. And inaccurately based on a few stories you know. This isn't fact and applicable to all

No we shouldn't blame people. We look at the cause and theoretically work with the countries from where they have fled to create a place of safety. Doubtless Brexit makes that harder as was found with Ukraine. Nobody flees their home, risks death crossing the channel and a very uncertain future. Can you imagine it? I can't. It's not your daughter against them, it's the persistent lack of investment in systems in this country over successive years by governments of all parties but mostly the Tory and the collation who have been in power the most. Not people seeking refuge. We're all working hard to survive wherever we were born, I am but I don't begrudge anyone a safe space.


----------



## rottieboys

Do we know who is actually coming over the channel, they could be rapist, murderous, terrorist. None of us know if any had a criminal records. How safe are our children. I would like how Australia deal with any body who wants to live and work in their country.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> Do we know who is actually coming over the channel, they could be rapist, murderous, terrorist. None of us know if any had a criminal records. How safe are our children. I would like how Australia deal with any body who wants to live and work in their country.


One also don't know how well qualified these people are either, but then again I expect one has to be clever to afford to pay the people traffickers. Y'know, murder someone and sell a few body parts, that sort of thing to get a bit of money. Pay for those mobile phones too (in which they're likely organising how to steal your children). Probably good money in that.


----------



## MollySmith

Still think there's more money in being a bogus Prime Minister.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> One also don't know how well qualified these people are either, but then again I expect one has to be clever to afford to pay the people traffickers. Y'know, murder someone and sell a few body parts, that sort of thing to get a bit of money. Pay for those mobile phones too (in which they're likely organising how to steal your children). Probably good money in that.


 What the point in putting my views across. But I am not the only one who thinks like that. I understand you might want to let everybody in..But it would not work. They should do a referendum on this . That would never happen of course.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> What the point in putting my views across. But I am not the only one who thinks like that. I understand you might want to let everybody in..But it would not work. They should do a referendum on this . That would never happen of course.


I know you are questioning putting your own views across as they are being challenged, but i think it's a bit of a leap to say that because someone disagrees with your views they want to let everyone in. @MollySmith said a few posts back the solution is to work collaboratively with governments in other countries to try and find a solution that means that people don't feel their only option is to undertake to these type of journeys.

I guess the point is some of us have a view that we don't want to see these illegal immigrants because we find it upsetting they have been in a situation where this is what they have felt they have had to do. That doesn't necessarily mean we want to fling open the borders and just let everyone in... 

Also it's worth noting that illegal immigration aside facts and figures regularly show that non illegal immigrants actually add more to the UK's economy than they take out. And generally access far less benefits and welfare than UK residents


----------



## Boxer123

Psygon said:


> I know you are questioning putting your own views across as they are being challenged, but i think it's a bit of a leap to say that because someone disagrees with your views they want to let everyone in. @MollySmith said a few posts back the solution is to work collaboratively with governments in other countries to try and find a solution that means that people don't feel their only option is to undertake to these type of journeys.
> 
> I guess the point is some of us have a view that we don't want to see these illegal immigrants because we find it upsetting they have been in a situation where this is what they have felt they have had to do. That doesn't necessarily mean we want to fling open the borders and just let everyone in...
> 
> Also it's worth noting that illegal immigration aside facts and figures regularly show that non illegal immigrants actually add more to the UK's economy than they take out. And generally access far less benefits and welfare than UK residents


We couldn’t run the NHS without them.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> What the point in putting my views across. But I am not the only one who thinks like that. I understand you might want to let everybody in..But it would not work. They should do a referendum on this . That would never happen of course.


You understand incorrectly.

I've already said, I take a balanced approach. Read a bit to further what I know, meet people who have fled places, chat to my Big Issue vendor. _They're_ not pitching one against the other. It's not about a referendum (I think it might've been called leaving the EU), it's going above the sort of tosh that gets published in the Daily Wail which it's utterly lacking in humanity and being fair and challenging our MPs and the systems that mean _people_ from any place get the support they need.


----------



## MollySmith

Boxer123 said:


> We couldn’t run the NHS without them.


Yes but watch out for the body snatchers.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> Yes but watch out for the body snatchers.


Yes, of course we got to watch out for the body snatchers. MollySmith, are you that sarcastic?


----------



## rottieboys

The trouble is, we need to train our own Doctors/ Nurses. Still we could import them from other countries. Then we will know that they are properly trained.


----------



## stuaz

Lets not kid ourselves here, the lack or services we have in this country, houses, dentists, doctors, schools, and other community services isnt down to some people coming across in a boat.

It’s a conscious decision by local and central governments to NOT invest in these things and then to make up for these inadequates its easier to blame people trying to live here. An escape goat if you will.

We could force better local planning, more force put on developers to provide the services but we don’t. And that’s not the fault of people wanting to live here.

Immigration is good for a country despite what the daily mail might try and tell us.


----------



## rottieboys

The trouble with Labour


stuaz said:


> Lets not kid ourselves here, the lack or services we have in this country, houses, dentists, doctors, schools, and other community services isnt down to some people coming across in a boat.
> 
> It’s a conscious decision by local and central governments to NOT invest in these things and then to make up for these inadequates its easier to blame people trying to live here. An escape goat if you will.
> 
> We could force better local planning, more force put on developers to provide the services but we don’t. And that’s not the fault of people wanting to live here.
> 
> Immigration is good for a country despite what the daily mail might try and tell us.


How good is it. Please educate me on this one.


----------



## MollySmith

rottieboys said:


> Yes, of course we got to watch out for the body snatchers. MollySmith, are you that sarcastic?


Probably. 

Actually all the time when I have the _joy_ of conversing with Daily Wail readers and fans of Allison Pearson and Sarah Vine.


----------



## Psygon

@rottieboys This report was commissioned ahead of brexit, so figures a little out of date but it's a decent place to start.









The Fiscal Impact of Immigration on the UK


European migrants living in the UK contribute £2,300 more to public purse each year than the average adult, suggesting a net contribution of £78,000 to the exchequer over their lifespan in the UK.




www.oxfordeconomics.com





Some quotes:

European migrants living in the UK contribute £2,300 more to public purse each year than the average adult, suggesting a net contribution of £78,000 to the exchequer over their lifespan in the UK.

The average European migrant arriving in the UK in 2016 will contribute £78,000 more than they take out in public services and benefits over their time spent in the UK (assuming a balanced national budget), and the average non-European migrant will make a positive net contribution of £28,000 while living here. By comparison, the average UK citizen’s net lifetime contribution in this scenario is zero.




rottieboys said:


> The trouble with Labour


I couldn't tell if this was an implication that what @stuaz posted could be attributed to labour or if you meant to add something else on?


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> @rottieboys This report was commissioned ahead of brexit, so figures a little out of date but it's a decent place to start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Fiscal Impact of Immigration on the UK
> 
> 
> European migrants living in the UK contribute £2,300 more to public purse each year than the average adult, suggesting a net contribution of £78,000 to the exchequer over their lifespan in the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.oxfordeconomics.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some quotes:
> 
> European migrants living in the UK contribute £2,300 more to public purse each year than the average adult, suggesting a net contribution of £78,000 to the exchequer over their lifespan in the UK.
> 
> The average European migrant arriving in the UK in 2016 will contribute £78,000 more than they take out in public services and benefits over their time spent in the UK (assuming a balanced national budget), and the average non-European migrant will make a positive net contribution of £28,000 while living here. By comparison, the average UK citizen’s net lifetime contribution in this scenario is zero.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't tell if this was an implication that what @stuaz posted could be attributed to labour or if you meant to add something else on?


Thank you, that's such a good link @Psygon and not one I've seen. It really does make one think about imbalance and the lies that get more traction (because it suits the politics of the paper that publishes them I guess). Making people scared of migrants and blaming them for all our problems is lazy but easy as they unfairly have little right to reply.


----------



## stuaz

rottieboys said:


> The trouble with Labour
> 
> How good is it. Please educate me on this one.


@Psygon posted some good examples.


----------



## MollySmith

@rottieboys 

Why our immigration system fails (it's based on Australia)

Six lies about immigration put about by the far right from The Museum of Homelessness including the 'robbery' of benefits 

IGCSE geography notes on the plus and minus of immigration 

Full Fact (and independent non-political and non-agenda fact checking site) on facts about EU immigration 

I hope that's helpful.


----------



## MollySmith

Liz Truss poetry _not by me, on a break for health reasons not recovering from a lobotomy_


----------



## MollySmith

I is wotkimg on not snorting
Into
My gluten fee
Cornflakes in case they 
Backstabeee meee.


----------



## rottieboys

MollySmith said:


> I is wotkimg on not snorting
> Into
> My gluten fee
> Cornflakes in case they
> Backstabeee meee.


What is that about?


----------



## rona

MollySmith said:


> Probably.
> 
> Actually all the time when I have the _joy_ of conversing with Daily Wail readers and fans of Allison Pearson and Sarah Vine.





MollySmith said:


> I is wotkimg on not snorting
> Into
> My gluten fee
> Cornflakes in case they
> Backstabeee meee.


 Oh I'd love to be as clever and nice as you


----------



## kimthecat

Psygon said:


> I know you are questioning putting your own views across as they are being challenged,


There's being challenged and there's being sarcastic . If someone receives sarcastic replies thats not a discussion.


----------



## Jobeth

kimthecat said:


> There's being challenged and there's being sarcastic . If someone receives sarcastic replies thats not a discussion.


I don’t agree with sarcasm but it’s pointless having a discussion with those that deny something is happening even when presented with evidence. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could read that article by the BBC and still think that no one has died crossing the channel. I chose to ignore the ‘properly trained’ comment as that’s just insulting to those working for the NHS from overseas.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> There's being challenged and there's being sarcastic . If someone receives sarcastic replies thats not a discussion.


Sorry


----------



## Jobeth

I do think this is going off topic and getting personal though. That includes me as well!


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> The trouble is, we need to train our own Doctors/ Nurses. Still we could import them from other countries. Then we will know that they are properly trained.


Yes we need to train our own Doctors and Nurses but it takes years to train them, until then we need help from abroad.


----------



## Happy Paws2

As for the next PM I was leaning towards Liz but all she saying is tax cuts, fair enough but if you don't pay any tax how that going to help. at least Sunak says he'll help the low paid and penisioners.


----------



## Deguslave

MollySmith said:


> Liz Truss poetry _not by me, on a break for health reasons not recovering from a lobotomy_
> 
> View attachment 576076


That's painful to read, not so much for what's said, but for the really bad English and spelling.


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> As for the next PM I was leaning towards Liz but all she saying is tax cuts, fair enough but if you don't pay any tax how that going to help. at least Sunak says he'll help the low paid and penisioners.


Exactly. No one has yet mentioned carers (most of whom rely on benefits as they are family members so unpaid carers) or the disabled who, through no fault of their own, can't work. 

But then again, we were financially ignored throughout the pandemic, so why should be expect anything different now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Deguslave said:


> Exactly. No one has yet mentioned carers (most of whom rely on benefits as they are family members so unpaid carers) or the disabled who, through no fault of their own, can't work.
> 
> But then again, we were financially ignored throughout the pandemic, so why should be expect anything different now.



The thing is with these people they have know idea about the normal world we live in, most of them are millionairs.


----------



## MollySmith

Jobeth said:


> I don’t agree with sarcasm but it’s pointless having a discussion with those that deny something is happening even when presented with evidence. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could read that article by the BBC and still think that no one has died crossing the channel. I chose to ignore the ‘properly trained’ comment as that’s just insulting to those working for the NHS from overseas.


@rottieboys my apologies if I offended you. It was on both side and I hope we can move forward.

@rona some of the phrases from the conversation were not great on all sides, me included. I accept that, I could've handled my frustration a lot better.

I will pick up language if it's inappropriate 'properly trained' as @Jobeth says. 'The homeless' and 'lot' were not very kind towards people who are already being judged (and yes there is evidence in the Daily Mail, Allison Pearson and Sarah Vine, I refuse to share to add to their web traffic and encourage more unkind bias). I did share links that were independent of opinion (Full Fact) or from experienced sources and on each occasion researched them to offer best advice. Clearly that's not at all appreciated.

I stepped away from being kind, helpful. I left the forum as it made me utterly miserable and it was affecting my mental and physical health - to the point of severe disruption and that happened twice this week since I came back and it's not healthy. I detest cliques and playground behaviour and I doubt those who cause those escalation care at all. Difference of opinion are fine we can learn from that. And I can see I'm being dragged in again and I am no longer being kind and helpful so I need to think about if I want to be here again. 

Apologies for digression but I'm not creating a new thread on mental health just to have it picked apart again. It's a strength to be open but some take advantage.


----------



## Sarah H

@MollySmith that Liz Truss poem has made my day, absolutely hilarious! Please don't leave again just because a couple of people don't like your opinion.


----------



## huckybuck

Sadly I haven’t seen much kindness (or being helpful) from certain people on this thread. Sarcasm and viciousness aplenty. 

People should think more before they post and remember their is a human being with feelings behind the avatar.


----------



## Jobeth

Happy Paws2 said:


> As for the next PM I was leaning towards Liz but all she saying is tax cuts, fair enough but if you don't pay any tax how that going to help. at least Sunak says he'll help the low paid and penisioners.


I’d choose Sunak as I’d rather pay the extra taxes/national insurance.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> @rottieboys my apologies if I offended you. It was on both side and I hope we can move forward.
> 
> @rona some of the phrases from the conversation were not great on all sides, me included. I accept that, I could've handled my frustration a lot better.
> 
> I will pick up language if it's inappropriate 'properly trained' as @Jobeth says. 'The homeless' and 'lot' were not very kind towards people who are already being judged (and yes there is evidence in the Daily Mail, Allison Pearson and Sarah Vine, I refuse to share to add to their web traffic and encourage more unkind bias). I did share links that were independent of opinion (Full Fact) or from experienced sources and on each occasion researched them to offer best advice. Clearly that's not at all appreciated.
> 
> I stepped away from being kind, helpful. I left the forum as it made me utterly miserable and it was affecting my mental and physical health - to the point of severe disruption and that happened twice this week since I came back and it's not healthy. I detest cliques and playground behaviour and I doubt those who cause those escalation care at all. Difference of opinion are fine we can learn from that. And I can see I'm being dragged in again and I am no longer being kind and helpful so I need to think about if I want to be here again.
> 
> Apologies for digression but I'm not creating a new thread on mental health just to have it picked apart again. It's a strength to be open but some take advantage.


Hey, I am sorry to read that but wanted to say I agree and I don't come on here either. If anyone even disagrees a bit or offers a counter view, it's a pile on. Mental health matters.


----------



## Pawscrossed

huckybuck said:


> Sadly I haven’t seen much kindness (or being helpful) from certain people on this thread. Sarcasm and viciousness aplenty.
> 
> People should think more before they post and remember their is a human being with feelings behind the avatar.


@Jobeth @Psygon and @MollySmith all posted information, and took time to do that. I agree with them all that the language directed at people who are fleeing from awful situations was poor. They all at least tried but there's a limit to one's patience. I rather liked the poem it made me chuckle and it's _very_ tongue in cheek.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> Oh I'd love to be as clever and nice as you



It's infectious and no better than Westminster who seem to thrive on it, yet are in charge of our country.


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> And more sarcasm
> 
> It's infectious.


Yep............if you dish it you should always expect to take it. This must be the 5th or 6th flounce I've seen

Sorry, but I can't stand by and watch someone be ridiculed


----------



## huckybuck

rona said:


> Yep............if you dish it you should always expect to take it.
> 
> Sorry, but I can't stand by and watch someone be ridiculed


Totally agree with this.


----------



## Pawscrossed

And so it goes around and around, with no way out or apology enough. What a very sad state all round.


----------



## Cleo38

Deguslave said:


> Exactly. No one has yet mentioned carers (most of whom rely on benefits as they are family members so unpaid carers) or the disabled who, through no fault of their own, can't work.
> 
> But then again, we were financially ignored throughout the pandemic, so why should be expect anything different now.


I agree. Carers have always been ignored but even more so over the past few years. Really, really tough times for so many people & no one in government seems to be doing anything about atm. I've not watched much about the leadership campaign but have either of them even addressed how to help those who cannot go in to paid work & yet still have such important roles?


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> And so it goes around and around, with no way out or apology enough. What a very sad state all round.


One flounce and not a flounce, I just signed off as ever and nobody noticed anyway. 

Had I made a thread about _the ignore function_ or_ I'm going to leave_, then yes that's making point.

Let's leave it be - whatever I say or however I apologise or own my actions which I've said were poor show, it's never good enough. Thank you anyways.


----------



## MollySmith

Deguslave said:


> Exactly. No one has yet mentioned carers (most of whom rely on benefits as they are family members so unpaid carers) or the disabled who, through no fault of their own, can't work.
> 
> But then again, we were financially ignored throughout the pandemic, so why should be expect anything different now.


I agree, there's been a lot about family but not about caring or those who live alone, age alone either. That hasn't improved since the pandemic but was utterly essential. I'm sorry that you're still being ignored, what you do is vital and under valued. I couldn't do it.


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> And so it goes around and around, with no way out


The Ignore function is now in use  
If I can't see it I can't react to it


----------



## Pawscrossed

I haven't seen any flouncing but I didn't notice anyone had left, though seemingly there's no way to escape PF or delete an account which is a little worrisome?

We digress again. I find this nattering and use of ignore awful, it's like having benefits in a place of work when the benefit should be good working conditions.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> The Ignore function is now in use
> If I can't see it I can't react to it


As you limit access to your profile, the forum doesn't allow users to put you onto ignore so that person (I assume @MollySmith or maybe me...) can see your content? Or maybe it's both ways in which case this allows one user to control the data of another.

Another issue with the platform (aside from ugly looking and not actually having a way to tackle bulling which no amount of polishing with swanky stuff can do). I shall ask the owners.


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> I haven't seen any flouncing but I didn't notice anyone had left, though seemingly there's no way to escape PF or delete an account which is a little worrisome?
> 
> We digress again. I find this nattering and use of ignore awful, it's like having benefits in a place of work when the benefit should be good working conditions.


Surely the best thing to do for your own personal happiness, is to cut people out that either add nothing or annoy or upset you?
I do it in real life, see no reason not to do it here


----------



## rona

Pawscrossed said:


> As you limit access to your profile, the forum doesn't allow users to put you onto ignore so that person (I assume @MollySmith or maybe me...) can see your content? Or maybe it's both ways in which case this allows one user to control the data of another.
> 
> Another issue with the platform (aside from ugly looking and not actually having a way to tackle bulling which no amount of polishing with swanky stuff can do). I shall ask the owners.


I have no beef with you at all.
You can put me on ignore, just hover over my profile rather than click 

Last post on this matter. Let's get back to slagging off the government


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> As you limit access to your profile, the forum doesn't allow users to put you onto ignore so that person (I assume @MollySmith or maybe me...) can see your content? Or maybe it's both ways in which case this allows one user to control the data of another.
> 
> Another issue with the platform (aside from ugly looking and not actually having a way to tackle bulling which no amount of polishing with swanky stuff can do). I shall ask the owners.


If it's helpful I can see your quotes from @rona and all their posts so I'm very aware, how kind of PF.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rona said:


> I have no beef with you at all.
> You can put me on ignore, just hover over my profile rather than click
> 
> Last post on this matter. Let's get back to slagging off the government


Thanks, no beef here with anyone at all, as long as it's equal and fair, a bit alarmed if there was a glitch that stopped that.

I don't think the judgement is or was right, we all have days or weeks in my case, but that's my view. 

I want more bad poetry by the Rishi fans to right the scales of injustice. There has to be something about him out there.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> If it's helpful I can see your quotes from @rona and all their posts so I'm very aware, how kind of PF.


If you hover, I don't know what you can see now but hover on a profile pic, three dots and job done if you want to (I know you prefer not to) or you can do a stylish flounce as opposed to the Boris long goodbye  (I believe I am allowed to be sarcastic and you are not )


----------



## rona




----------



## kimthecat

MollySmith said:


> One flounce and not a flounce, I just signed off as ever and nobody noticed anyway.
> 
> Had I made a thread about _the ignore function_ or_ I'm going to leave_, then yes that's making point.
> 
> Let's leave it be - whatever I say or however I apologise or own my actions which I've said were poor show, it's never good enough. Thank you anyways.


I missed you


----------



## kimthecat

I feel beyond caring who is next PM. Who ever wins , Its going to be a very difficult time , indeed a nightmare and I'm not looking forward to it .

Let's not fall out , its not worth it ,


----------



## Psygon

rona said:


>


While I agree with the sentiment, how does someone with so much money actually stay in touch with those that are in poverty, I'm more interested to know if anything being proposed by Sunak, Truss or Starmer will actually impact any one. 

For example, in 2023 it's predicted that over 15million households will be in fuel poverty (which is over 50% of UK households). I'd love to know out of all the things being touted as solutions what impact those solutions would have on the number of households falling into fuel poverty. I feel that if someone could say 'our analysis predicts by cutting the green levy it will stop X number of households falling into fuel poverty' that I could believe that any of them actually understand the issues people are facing, and that the ideas they are coming up with are based on having a real meaningful impact.

At the moment a lot of the ideas (on all sides) being discussed just seem like headline seeking snippets rather than showing any true understanding of the scale of the crisis for a lot of ordinary people. So I guess what I'm saying/asking is do any of them really understand - rich or not?


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> While I agree with the sentiment, how does someone with so much money actually stay in touch with those that are in poverty, I'm more interested to know if anything being proposed by Sunak, Truss or Starmer will actually impact any one.
> 
> For example, in 2023 it's predicted that over 15million households will be in fuel poverty (which is over 50% of UK households). I'd love to know out of all the things being touted as solutions what impact those solutions would have on the number of households falling into fuel poverty. I feel that if someone could say 'our analysis predicts by cutting the green levy it will stop X number of households falling into fuel poverty' that I could believe that any of them actually understand the issues people are facing, and that the ideas they are coming up with are based on having a real meaningful impact.
> 
> *At the moment a lot of the ideas (on all sides) being discussed just seem like headline seeking snippets rather than showing any true understanding of the scale of the crisis for a lot of ordinary people. So I guess what I'm saying/asking is do any of them really understand - rich or not?*


The scale of what's happening is mind boggling. I agree. The maths isn't adding up nor do the solutions, and of course trusting they are viable ones too.

I read about a cafe in Exeter closing because their fuel bill was going to be £10k, something like a 60% rise when they are already struggling for custom because people aren't going out for coffee so frequently so that's all their staff without work thrown into poverty, the owners, the independent culture of their street (because the likes of Costa can withstand this I'm sure).


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> The scale of what's happening is mind boggling. I agree. The maths isn't adding up nor do the solutions, and of course trusting they are viable ones too.
> 
> I read about a cafe in Exeter closing because their fuel bill was going to be £10k, something like a 60% rise when they are already struggling for custom because people aren't going out for coffee so frequently so that's all their staff without work thrown into poverty, the owners, the independent culture of their street (because the likes of Costa can withstand this I'm sure).


An whole shift to survival of the fittest in business. I recall you and others saying that green should not be unaffordable but if small shops close at the expense of chains with unethical practice (my stepson worked in Costa, staff welfare wasnt high on the agenda) them that’s worse for the planet? I assume many big companies also avoid tax thanks to the Government?


----------



## MollySmith

Pawscrossed said:


> An whole shift to survival of the fittest in business. I recall you and others saying that green should not be unaffordable but if small shops close at the expense of chains with unethical practice (my stepson worked in Costa, staff welfare wasnt high on the agenda) them that’s worse for the planet? I assume many big companies also avoid tax thanks to the Government?


Exactly, it's a ripple out isn't ? The coffee shop that might get it's coffee from an ethical place that invested in legit fair trade fails but the big chain moves in and if the staff from the failed shop want to work in a chain (or have a choice) may suffer from less quality of life and worse earnings though maybe the high street would survive. If it didn't and the shop was vacant that creates more pockets of poverty and vandalism and crime.... and so on. Costa do pay tax btw but they are owned by Coca Cola. They are terrible for litter, welfare, certification... it's pretty grim reading tbf. Worse that news may not filter upwards to the government it's a byline in a local newspaper that shouldn't be publishing stupid poetry (that numb nuts here shared)

Yes, everyone should be allowed to save the planet regardless of income but it's been portrayed as middle class/rich (often is but sometimes it's seen as that by rumour or brand identity) and inclusive, affordable access to being planet friendly or the climate emergency isn't on any agenda from either candidate from what little I've seen but @huckybuck may know more as they went to an event with Liz Truss and maybe have a better answer for you. I hope I'm okay to tag you @huckybuck.


----------



## Psygon

MollySmith said:


> Exactly, it's a ripple out isn't ? The coffee shop that might get it's coffee from an ethical place that invested in legit fair trade fails but the big chain moves in and if the staff from the failed shop want to work in a chain (or have a choice) may suffer from less quality of life and worse earnings though maybe the high street would survive. If it didn't and the shop was vacant that creates more pockets of poverty and vandalism and crime.... and so on. Costa do pay tax btw but they are owned by Coca Cola. They are terrible for litter, welfare, certification... it's pretty grim reading tbf. Worse that news may not filter upwards to the government it's a byline in a local newspaper that shouldn't be publishing stupid poetry (that numb nuts here shared)
> 
> Yes, everyone should be allowed to save the planet regardless of income but it's been portrayed as middle class/rich (often is but sometimes it's seen as that by rumour or brand identity) and inclusive, affordable access to being planet friendly or the climate emergency isn't on any agenda from either candidate from what little I've seen but @huckybuck may know more as they went to an event with Liz Truss and maybe have a better answer for you. I hope I'm okay to tag you @huckybuck.


I think in a lot of cases being ethical, doing things to save the planet can be more expensive. 

Recycling doesn't cost anything. Well unless you can't afford a car and your local council doesn't collect something like glass and there is no way for you to feasibly get to the household waste and recycling center. Then the glass just goes in your bin. 

Buying a jumper that's ethically produced tends to be more expensive than picking up a jumper in Primark. I mean so what if the more ethically sustainable one will last longer because it's been well made out of sustainable materials... Ultimately you can't afford it right now and you need the jumper because you can't put the heating on.

Deciding you want to ditch dairy milk, but lots of the plant based milks are more expensive. 

Wanting to buy organic and locally produced meat or vegetables... More expensive again than the mass produced variety available in the supermarket.

I guess it's just a case of figuring out what you can afford to do and doing what you can. And as a caveat aware I may have picked some obvious/extreme examples. But it is kind of depressing that there can be a very real income barrier to doing more to save the planet.


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> I think in a lot of cases being ethical, doing things to save the planet can be more expensive.
> 
> Recycling doesn't cost anything. Well unless you can't afford a car and your local council doesn't collect something like glass and there is no way for you to feasibly get to the household waste and recycling center. Then the glass just goes in your bin.
> 
> Buying a jumper that's ethically produced tends to be more expensive than picking up a jumper in Primark. I mean so what if the more ethically sustainable one will last longer because it's been well made out of sustainable materials... Ultimately you can't afford it right now and you need the jumper because you can't put the heating on.
> 
> Deciding you want to ditch dairy milk, but lots of the plant based milks are more expensive.
> 
> Wanting to buy organic and locally produced meat or vegetables... More expensive again than the mass produced variety available in the supermarket.
> 
> I guess it's just a case of figuring out what you can afford to do and doing what you can. And as a caveat aware I may have picked some obvious/extreme examples. But it is kind of depressing that there can be a very real income barrier to doing more to save the planet.


Agree and so right to point out what can be done for free. 

Sadly some supply chains are making life worse for farmers and animal welfare is also held to account. It's a smoking gun this climate emergency and folk are being robbed of all the choices such as buying products with less plastic in the first place (usually farm shops, Waitrose places beyond the income of many. It makes people feel guilt, shame and a whole heap of crap as they can't do anymore.

I can afford the veg box but the farm shop isn't somewhere I go at all as it means taking the car which has been parked up the drive since early June. (I'm hoping for rain to clean off the crap!) Luckily it's in South Cambridgeshire so it's likely to succeed as it's so rich here but shops in other areas of the country may not.


----------



## Pawscrossed

MollySmith said:


> Agree and so right to point out what can be done for free.
> 
> Sadly some supply chains are making life worse for farmers and animal welfare is also held to account. It's a smoking gun this climate emergency and folk are being robbed of all the choices such as buying products with less plastic in the first place (usually farm shops, Waitrose places beyond the income of many. It makes people feel guilt, shame and a whole heap of crap as they can't do anymore.
> 
> I can afford the veg box but the farm shop isn't somewhere I go at all as it means taking the car which has been parked up the drive since early June. (I'm hoping for rain to clean off the crap!) Luckily it's in South Cambridgeshire so it's likely to succeed as it's so rich here but shops in other areas of the country may not.


I keep thinking about farmers too. Brexit is a disaster, now this and the godawful welfare standards and consumerism.


----------



## Psygon

Pawscrossed said:


> I keep thinking about farmers too. Brexit is a disaster, now this and the godawful welfare standards and consumerism.


Not that I supported exiting the EU, but I think it's fair to say that it's only part of the picture when looking at the issues impacting farmers. And note I'm not a farmer but I live in a rural community, so I suspect I have a pretty naive view of the issues.

However, if Brexit had been the only thing then maybe there might have been more of an opportunity to react. But that combined with the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, inflation and the cost of living crisis, and now drought (or perhaps better framed around climate change) is just adding to the problems. I imagine it makes it hard to respond to any of them.


----------



## MollySmith

Psygon said:


> Not that I supported exiting the EU, but I think it's fair to say that it's only part of the picture when looking at the issues impacting farmers. And note I'm not a farmer but I live in a rural community, so I suspect I have a pretty naive view of the issues.
> 
> However, if Brexit had been the only thing then maybe there might have been more of an opportunity to react. But that combined with the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, inflation and the cost of living crisis, and now drought (or perhaps better framed around climate change) is just adding to the problems. I imagine it makes it hard to respond to any of them.


I read some alarming stats on mental health in farming communities. 

(I didn't support leaving but I get the impression they were promised a lot that failed to happen)


----------



## Happy Paws2

I'm really get annoyed with the tories at the moment, we are a country in free fall and they just don't seem to care. We have energy prices and food prices out of control, half the country on strike or thinking about it and what are they doing about it *nothing*. BJ is still PM so why hasn't he bought parliment back for emergency talks, we shouldn't have to waiit until they have sorted out who is going to take over next month, something need doing NOW.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I'm really get annoyed with the tories at the moment, we are a country in free fall and they just don't seem to care. We have energy prices and food prices out of control, half the country on strike or thinking about it and what are they doing about it *nothing*. BJ is still PM so why hasn't he bought parliment back for emergency talks, we shouldn't have to waiit until they have sorted out who is going to take over next month, something need doing NOW.


I think BJ is in a sulk about being ousted and doesn't care two hoots, most of the others are on their tax payer paid for or donated holidays and can't be bothered, and the rest seem determined to elect someone who will screw us over even more


----------



## rottieboys

Well, all those who wanted Boris out as got their wish. What ever he does now would not be acceptable. God help us if Labour gets in next time.


----------



## rottieboys

Oh by the way, it's the unions that is causing all the trouble. Wouldn't we all want more money.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> Well, all those who wanted Boris out as got their wish. What ever he does now would not be acceptable. God help us if Labour gets in next time.


 I don't think it matters any more who gets in. The whole system is broken and those in power all seem to be morally corrupt, some just blatantly corrupt. Worst of all, everyone can see, and they still get away with it.

I'm in the last third of my life, I feel that humanity is doomed anyway, so I'm actually voting Labour next time ( never thought I would) because they will look after me as an old age pensioner and will at least try and keep the NHS going.


----------



## huckybuck

Much as I am a Tory I do think this limbo government is a bad idea whether we are in a crisis or not. 

I do agree with having hustings and debates (if members have to make their vote) but it could be done a darn sight quicker than this.

I have enjoyed the responsibility of voting but in an extraordinary situation perhaps it should have been just the MPs as they did at the beginning to prevent this vacuum.

I also agree with the idea of a general election for situations like this. It certainly would have stopped the MPs resigning and ousting Boris if they thought that was going to be the consequence.


----------



## huckybuck

I have no problem with people asking for more money in line with inflation as long as they are then prepared to have money taken off them when inflation goes down again!!!!


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> *God help us if Labour gets in next time.*



And you think it would be worse, the tories have been in for 12 years and look at the mess they have got us into and it's not just the last few months we having been going down hill for the last few years and not just because of covid. 
All they think about is themselves.


----------



## CollieSlave

huckybuck said:


> I have no problem with people asking for more money in line with inflation as long as they are then prepared to have money taken off them when inflation goes down again!!!!


Wow! A great Tory idea: the concept could be used with highly paid business executives who get massive bonuses on the strength of the business performance - if, in subsequent years, performance was not so great they could repay their bonuses into the company coffers as an aid to future performance. Love it!


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> And you think it would be worse, the tories have been in for 12 years and look at the mess they have got us into and it's not just the last few months we having been going down hill for the last few years and not just because of covid.
> All they think about is themselves.


I remember when Labour was in power. Did n't they spend, spend. Nothing left. I personally think Boris might have done a good job as PM if the Covid and the Ukraine war did not get in the way. He should of tighten the reins within, instead of supporting his colleagues. The press kept having a goes at him. I think it was all the remoaner upset about Brexit.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I remember when Labour was in power. Did n't they spend, spend. Nothing left. I personally think Boris might have done a good job as PM if the Covid and the Ukraine war did not get in the way. He should of tighten the reins within, instead of supporting his colleagues. The press kept having a goes at him. I think it was all the remoaner upset about Brexit.


I do think Boris has been shabbily treated, trouble is, if you align yourself with snakes, you should expect to be bitten


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Oh by the way, it's the unions that is causing all the trouble. Wouldn't we all want more money.


What's the evidence that it is the unions causing all the trouble? They are definitely causing disruption - but I'm not sure how they are causing the rising prices due to the world wide situation. Maybe they are a contributor... But suspect the situation is far too complex to point out an individual cause. Imagine the war in Ukraine would be one of the biggest contributors.



huckybuck said:


> I have no problem with people asking for more money in line with inflation as long as they are then prepared to have money taken off them when inflation goes down again!!!!


I might be totally wrong about this, but when food prices go up due to inflation I'm sure they never seem to come back down. I guess other stuff would reduce in price like energy bills, but I bet we see food prices stabilizing at or close to the higher prices. 

Not that I think giving the money back if inflation goes down is a bad idea necessarily - just wondering if we end up living in a post inflation world with higher prices for everything.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> *I remember when Labour was in power. Did n't they spend, spend. Nothing left. *



That was 12 years ago, I can't understand why BJ and others keep going on about what happend 12 years ago and keep blaming the Labour party for their problems now, if they can't get right by now they have no chance.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> That was 12 years ago, I can't understand why BJ and others keep going on about what happend 12 years ago and keep blaming the Labour party for their problems now, if they can't get right by now they have no chance.


It depend what side of the gate you were on. I remember the lies Tony Blair said, costing lives. I remember Gordon Brown saying that lady who question him about immigration was call a bigot.They also said they were going to do all sorts of things. Shames, people did n't believe any of them when Boris got his biggest ever support from all over the country. Boris might not have got it right, but got voted out by his own party for what. Christmas party....I hope who ever gets in, will do a better job.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> It depend what side of the gate you were on. I remember the lies Tony Blair said, costing lives. I remember Gordon Brown saying that lady who question him about immigration was call a bigot.They also said they were going to do all sorts of things. Shames, people did n't believe any of them when Boris got his biggest ever support from all over the country. Boris might not have got it right, but got voted out by his own party for what. Christmas party....I hope who ever gets in, will do a better job.


I’m going to set aside the points about Blair and Brown, because wherever your loyalties lie you can look back at previous governments and say but oh they did this and they did that. All of it was a long time ago, a lot of it was difficult at the time and lots of it created lasted repercussions. ultimately it’s history and not necessarily useful in the context of the crisis right now. I imagine we all want a government who has realistic ideas on how to get the country back on track… maybe that will be Labour, maybe it will be conservative or even Lib Dems.

But I just want to address the point about Boris.

it was not a Christmas party that caused Boris’ downfall. It was repeated questionable decisions that made it look like the leader of this country couldn’t tell the truth and had zero integrity. To the point that a large proportion of his own MPs could no longer support him because their constituents were saying this has to stop, this is wrong.

I’m well aware that this doesn’t necessarily mean that all of the public had lost all faith in Boris, but a vocal majority had.

I am fairly sure all of the following contributed to people saying he had no integrity (and I am probably missing some!) and led to people saying he had to go

Chris pincher allegations and how he handled it
Owen Peterson 
Partygate
PPE etc contracts during covid going to friends
The wallpaper and not being truthful
Prorogation of parliament 

I think it’s really simplifying it to say it was about a party.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> It depend what side of the gate you were on.* I remember the lies Tony Blair said, costing lives. I remember Gordon Brown saying that lady who question him about immigration was call a bigot.They also said they were going to do all sorts of things.* Shames, people did n't believe any of them when Boris got his biggest ever support from all over the country. Boris might not have got it right, but got voted out by his own party for what. Christmas party....I hope who ever gets in, will do a better job.


Yes but all that was over 12 years ago, you can't judge a party on the things that happened then.

But all in fighting with the tories is happening now, which isn't doing the country or us any good at the moment is it.

But if you want to going back in time. Thacther sold of coucil houses making the housing shortish and not letting them build any more. Sold of all the utiliies, so now shareholders are gettting all the profits instead back to the governemt to reinvest in the comanpies, so our bills kept going up.
She was the one that made this country into a I'm the only one that counts and to h*ll with everyone else.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes but all that was over 12 years ago, you can't judge a party on the things that happened then.
> 
> But all in fighting with the tories is happening now, which isn't doing the country or us any good at the moment is it.
> 
> But if you want to going back in time. Thacther sold of coucil houses making the housing shortish and not letting them build any more. Sold of all the utiliies, so now shareholders are gettting all the profits instead back to the governemt to reinvest in the comanpies, so our bills kept going up.
> She was the one that made this country into a I'm the only one that counts and to h*ll with everyone else.


Let me think of all the horrible things Labour did. I guess you are blaming Thatcher for everything. Like I said before, lots of people made money out of buying their council house. I would have done as well, unfortunately I wasn't in a council house. I rented private. I understand why people would want a Labour cabinet in. They were giving money to everyone. Was n't labour who said doctors did n't have to work Saturday anymore. Also great pensions. 😡


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> I have no problem with people asking for more money in line with inflation as long as they are then prepared to have money taken off them when inflation goes down





rottieboys said:


> Let me think of all the horrible things Labour did. I guess you are blaming Thatcher for everything. Like I said before, lots of people made money out of buying their council house. I would have done as well, unfortunately I wasn't in a council house. I rented private. I understand why people would want a Labour cabinet in. They were giving money to everyone. Was n't labour who said doctors did n't have to work Saturday anymore. Also great pensions. 😡


The consequence of Councils being forced to sell houses at a discount - sometimes a bit discount - and also forced to use the money to reduce Council Tax rather than build new houses with it is today's housing problems - many would say crisis. Many of the houses sold have ended up with big landlords who own many houses, not with the family of the people who brought them. 

And it was the Conservatives who brought in the triple lock for pensioners.


----------



## Deguslave

Allowing people to buy their council houses wasn't the problem, I bought mine, it was not allowing the council access to the revenue generated by the sales so they could replace the lost housing stock that caused the shortage. The government effectively put a stop to councils building any more housing for years!

All governments have their faults, you can pick a 'they were responsible for this' fight right down the centuries, but its only if those decisions affect the situation today thats revelant. The impact of this cost of living crisis will be felt for a very long if they don't get the response right. Not being able to pay your bills affects your credit rating for 7 years, not being able to feed yourself can impact your health for the rest of your life and the government are too busy having a petulant hissy fit to deal with it.


----------



## rottieboys

What I understand we are not the only country in this situation, started with the Ukraine war. Perhaps we should not rely on other counties for our energy and other food. Why, we haven't done more in this country. It must of been cheaper to import. One good thing Boris did, was to stop live exporting animals.Well I hope that did managed to pass.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Let me think of all the horrible things Labour did. I guess you are blaming Thatcher for everything. Like I said before, lots of people made money out of buying their council house. I would have done as well, unfortunately I wasn't in a council house. I rented private. I understand why people would want a Labour cabinet in. They were giving money to everyone. Was n't labour who said doctors did n't have to work Saturday anymore. Also great pensions. 😡


We are never going to agree about this, so I'll leave it here.


----------



## stuaz

rottieboys said:


> What I understand we are not the only country in this situation, started with the Ukraine war. Perhaps we should not rely on other counties for our energy and other food. Why, we haven't done more in this country. It must of been cheaper to import. *One good thing Boris did, was to stop live exporting animals.*Well I hope that did managed to pass.


That’s good then, we can send all the animals round to peoples houses who can’t afford to heat there houses this winter - we can use the animals body heat instead…


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> What I understand we are not the only country in this situation, started with the Ukraine war. Perhaps we should not rely on other counties for our energy and other food. Why, we haven't done more in this country. It must of been cheaper to import. One good thing Boris did, was to stop live exporting animals.Well I hope that did managed to pass.


It hasn’t passed. Rishi Sunak promises to ban live animal exports and hunting trophies

So, not something Boris has done, and since he has a couple of weeks left unlikely to happen during his time in Number 10.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Let me think of all the horrible things Labour did. I guess you are blaming Thatcher for everything. Like I said before, lots of people made money out of buying their council house. I would have done as well, unfortunately I wasn't in a council house. I rented private. I understand why people would want a Labour cabinet in. They were giving money to everyone. Was n't labour who said doctors did n't have to work Saturday anymore. Also great pensions. 😡


12 years ago. 12. Just like your Tory party they’ve changed too. The Tories have got a lot worse and no, you cannot claim that any other party would have been worse. We don’t know this. The Tory party are in power, let’s talk about them.

What’s your defence on the sewage? Is that the Green party (though I hear Greek waters are being polluted by a big Boris Turd).

I have stopped counting all the things Boris Johnson has done that fall below the moral code. It’s one thing to come to power as a party elected by the public and for some of us to feel disgruntled by it. Of course we have political bias. It is another to put peoples lives at risk and indirectly (though I think those who have lost people dear to them would disagree) been responsible for the death of many from Covid through his, and his governments successive cock ups.

It was not one Christmas party, it was 17 parties in total, of which he was at several or his party or staff knew about whilst we were are attempting to deal with lockdowns alone on his instructions. That’s blood on his hands. There‘s more crimes here.

There are endless other lies. I can forgive differences in politics opinion but a liar, cheat. No.


----------



## StormyThai

Boris Johnson "could" show that he gives a damn about the population that voted him in...instead he preferred to look after his "mates"
Capitalism at it's finest 
The only issue with him being given the boot, is that there is no one morally capable of doing the job...most politicians are out for their own interests....

It's interesting how many are happy to ignore Boris' blatant and very public lies and corruption...forgetting how he actively encouraged people to not worry about a virus that was already spreading and killing fast...continue to ignore just how many rich people became much richer during a pandemic...continue to ignore energy prices skyrocketing even though Boris "could" put a stop to it IF he wanted...etc...etc...

But yeah, I guess "It was unprecedented times" and "Oh but the war)are good enough excuses for many.

After losing 3 members of my family that I could not visit in their time of need, while the dude that made those rules carried on regardless is unforgivable AND unforgettable...and "Well Labour wouldn't have done any better" is not appropriate reasoning INHO


Said my piece...am out before I get dragged in!


----------



## rottieboys

This is the good thing about this forum, we can disagree about any subject. We all need to voice our opinions, without being sarcastic. I do agree, my views might not be 100% correct.


----------



## kimthecat

Rishi and Liz , Its all talk. Ive got the Bee Gees song in my head Words 
You think that I don't even mean
A single word I say
It's only words and words are all I have


----------



## Jesthar

Pawscrossed said:


> What’s your defence on the sewage? Is that the Green party (though I hear Greek waters are being polluted by a big Boris Turd).


I admit I have some bias as I work in the water industry, but it's not just the water companies - OFWAT do have something to answer for here as well. The public is generally not aware, but there was quite a long period of time when keeping the bills down was so important to OFWAT that a number of upgrades and replacements in many areas were cancelled due to lack of allowed funding (a la "your assets aren't at 100% capacity yet, therefore you don't need to replace them yet, and that will save the customer money off their bills for the next five years").

Now, of course, replacing/upgrading all that kit is going to be way more expensive than it would have been back then...


----------



## kimthecat

stuaz said:


> That’s good then, we can send all the animals round to peoples houses who can’t afford to heat there houses this winter - we can use the animals body heat instead…


Actually , it is a good thing if it passes. There is cruelty involved in export of live animals and I have been campaigning for this to be banned since the 70's and I want to see it pass before I die.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris is away and we are pissed that he has done nothing to help us over the years since he became our PM . The latest is that the Council are closing the council run nurseries , used by single parents and those on low incomes so they can work.


----------



## Deguslave

To be honest, I wouldn't trust my local council to run a bath. I've been told I have to move due to rising damp and a planned refurbishment that turns the place into a death trap for a disabled tenant, but at the same time they're telling me I'm adequately housed and in no immediate need of rehousing!

With the rehousing band they've put me on, I'm looking at a 44 week wait for an unadapted place and 4 years for an adapted one. To add insult to injury, they won't let me exchange because of the planned refurbishment.

I've had to report the front door today as the rain is pouring through the door, not under it, and its going to be October before they'll even look at it.

They're completely useless!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

So I'm reading a bit about Rishi and Liz and how they are both saying they think the government went too far on the Covid restrictions. I'm here remembering how I sat one night during the Covid evening briefings and Rishi was taking one of them and I said I could see that he would be the next PM. So what went wrong for him? How is Liz suddenly the favourite? Is it because of the tax thing with his wife? Is it the Green Card? Is it (and I am really loathe to say this) because he's Asian and some of the Tory "old guard" wouldn't vote for someone Asian? What's happened? I'm genuinely intrigued.


----------



## huckybuck

Mrs Funkin said:


> So I'm reading a bit about Rishi and Liz and how they are both saying they think the government went too far on the Covid restrictions. I'm here remembering how I sat one night during the Covid evening briefings and Rishi was taking one of them and I said I could see that he would be the next PM. So what went wrong for him? How is Liz suddenly the favourite? Is it because of the tax thing with his wife? Is it the Green Card? Is it (and I am really loathe to say this) because he's Asian and some of the Tory "old guard" wouldn't vote for someone Asian? What's happened? I'm genuinely intrigued.


I thought exactly the same until it came to the campaign. I was all for Rishi being next leader but 

It’s a couple of things Mrs F. 

The way he came across in the very first debate - quite bullying. A lot of female (and some male) observers really didn’t like how he behaved. Although he has tried to change they haven’t forgotten.

The fact he was disloyal to Boris. A lot of members weren’t happy with ousting Boris and esp with Rishi as he was seen as the instigator. Given a lot of the members would have preferred Boris to stay full term he hasn’t got their vote. 

I don’t think the members are that bothered about his wife or green card or Asian.

But they do wonder if he can really relate to the general public. And in reverse if the general public would vote for him in a general election. 

His economic policy would probably be preferable to most conservative voters BUT he hasn’t gone into detail about what he’d actually do to tackle inflation. It’s ok saying he’d tackle it but how…

On economic policy alone he prob would have romped it but taking everything above into account I don’t think he will. Could be wrong though…


----------



## Deguslave

I think it was his unwillingness to do anything about the covid fraudsters too. Millions, possibly billions, was defrauded in covid loans, false furlough claims etc, but nothing has been done to recoup the losses, the debts have effectively been written off.

As chancellor, he should have been the one shouting about it.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Thanks @huckybuck that’s interesting about the bullying in the debate issue. I’d not even clocked that as a reason but I’m pleased to see that stance being taken.

(Thanks for taking the time to respond)


----------



## Lurcherlad

I’m definitely in the “none of the above” camp …. 😐


----------



## Happy Paws2

With everything that's going on at the moment, I think they should recall parliment so they can try sort something out.

Having to wait untill a PM is in place doesn't make any sence at all.

All I can say is.....the tories don't care about us.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> With everything that's going on at the moment, I think they should recall parliment so they can try sort something out.
> 
> Having to wait untill a PM is in place doesn't make any sence at all.
> 
> All I can say is.....the tories don't care about us.


Some people will get more help than others.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> With everything that's going on at the moment, I think they should recall parliment so they can try sort something out.
> 
> Having to wait untill a PM is in place doesn't make any sence at all.
> 
> All I can say is.....the tories don't care about us.


Surely you are entitled to over £1000 help so far?

You are certainly getting £700


----------



## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> Surely you are entitled to over £1000 help so far?
> 
> You are certainly getting £700



I was talking in general not about me. 

There are so many people with children and or are low paid that really need help from the government* now* but they don't seem to care.
Who ever you are, you should never have to choose between heating and food, but as most of the cabinet and the two fighting to be PM are millonairs they have no idea what's it's like to have to watch every penny they spend. They certianly won't be worrying about food, heating, puting the lights on or do I catch the bus or have to walk and do I have to go to a food bank and ask for help.


----------



## Deguslave

I'm beginning to think Martin Lewis should stand for prime minister. At least he understands the situation.


----------



## rona

Deguslave said:


> I'm beginning to think Martin Lewis should stand for prime minister. At least he understands the situation.


Unfortunately, he's already said he's not interested.

He would win with the biggest landslide ever


----------



## huckybuck

Just because you have kids should not mean you are entitled to handouts from the govt. 

It’s a choice to have them and you should be able to afford them without expecting the state to help.


----------



## Deguslave

huckybuck said:


> Just because you have kids should not mean you are entitled to handouts from the govt.
> 
> It’s a choice to have them and you should be able to afford them without expecting the state to help.


Completely agree!

If you can't afford to have kids - don't breed!


----------



## rottieboys

This one I do agree with.


----------



## O2.0

Deguslave said:


> If you can't afford to have kids - don't breed!


What qualifies as "afford" to have kids? 

I know, I'm no in the UK, but statements like this do make me wonder, who is worthy of having kids? Only the very rich? 
Because OH and I are not rich but by 30 I realized if we waited until we felt we could "afford" kids we would never have them. 

We've never received a penny from the government for our kids. Other than a minor tax cut until they were 17 and now we get another minor tax cut because we're paying for their university education. 
We had astronomical medical bills because they were preemies - no, not because of anything wrong with me or because I had any 'help' getting pregnant (which weirdly people ask), but a freak issue because they were twins. 

We're of an economic class that's stuck in no-man's land. We make too much to qualify for any help, but not enough that incidentals like a month long stay in NICU doesn't put us in debt. If we were poorer, the government would have paid for that, but because we both have a job and insurance, we're on our own. And then you work to pay off that debt and something else comes up. Despite our original plan to do so, we have never been able to save anything significantly, not for our retirement, not for their university education - which in the US is not free, not by a long shot. The only thing that saved us is that both kids qualify for merit scholarships but have to work their butts off to maintain the grades to continue to qualify.

Should we have not had kids? What crystal ball would have foretold us that no matter how responsibly we decided to procreate, we would still end up struggling to "afford" them? 
Should only the very rich have children then?

This is not all directed at you specifically @Deguslave just a general musing on how financially stable someone should be in order to be worthy of being a parent. Because I do hear that and similar statements a lot and I just wonder what people are really thinking when they say it.


----------



## huckybuck

Of course not the rich but be able to look after them yourself without expecting the state to do it for you.


----------



## Boxer123

O2.0 said:


> What qualifies as "afford" to have kids?
> 
> I know, I'm no in the UK, but statements like this do make me wonder, who is worthy of having kids? Only the very rich?
> Because OH and I are not rich but by 30 I realized if we waited until we felt we could "afford" kids we would never have them.
> 
> We've never received a penny from the government for our kids. Other than a minor tax cut until they were 17 and now we get another minor tax cut because we're paying for their university education.
> We had astronomical medical bills because they were preemies - no, not because of anything wrong with me or because I had any 'help' getting pregnant (which weirdly people ask), but a freak issue because they were twins.
> 
> We're of an economic class that's stuck in no-man's land. We make too much to qualify for any help, but not enough that incidentals like a month long stay in NICU doesn't put us in debt. If we were poorer, the government would have paid for that, but because we both have a job and insurance, we're on our own. And then you work to pay off that debt and something else comes up. Despite our original plan to do so, we have never been able to save anything significantly, not for our retirement, not for their university education - which in the US is not free, not by a long shot. The only thing that saved us is that both kids qualify for merit scholarships but have to work their butts off to maintain the grades to continue to qualify.
> 
> Should we have not had kids? What crystal ball would have foretold us that no matter how responsibly we decided to procreate, we would still end up struggling to "afford" them?
> Should only the very rich have children then?
> 
> This is not all directed at you specifically @Deguslave just a general musing on how financially stable someone should be in order to be worthy of being a parent. Because I do hear that and similar statements a lot and I just wonder what people are really thinking when they say it.


To add families might start off being able to afford children but life changes; illness, death, divorce, job loss. Being charged £5000 a year for electricity.


----------



## rottieboys

It might be different in the USA. But my daughter has got one child. They worked very hard to buy a house in London. But ridiculously prices, ended up moving to Ashford. They save and save to get the things they wanted. 8 years ago they had a much wanted child. My daughter was 36years old. and would like another one. But what with the cost of living have no chance. We are not that near to help out with child care. The thought of losing their home because of wanting a child is too much for them, every penny they earn is for paying for one thing or another. Holiday , was a camping trip in Cornwall. Mind you they really did enjoy it.


----------



## QOTN

If everybody waited until they thought they were financially secure enough to raise their children to adults and beyond, most people would be too old to have children. It is only possible to base decisions on reasonable expectations and they can change without sufficient warning as is being shown by the present situation. 

Having said that, old people like me are rather amazed at all the 'things' that are considered essential to modern life. This attitude can put a strain even on substantial salaries. Obviously a capitalist system relies on people being materialistic but surely a reasonable amount of financial caution is beneficial.


----------



## rottieboys

I remember if you got yourself pregnant, and your family couldn't help you. It was expected that the council would step in and re home you. Going back some years now, many of my friend did just that.


----------



## O2.0

huckybuck said:


> Of course not the rich but be able to look after them yourself without expecting the state to do it for you.


I don't know that the majority of people think that though. That the government will pay for their children's needs. I'm sure some do, but I think that number is very minimal and just seems higher because of how people like to amp up the outrage machine. 
Most people want to do for their children and as @Boxer123 says, shit happens and you end up having to work around things you never expected. 

And what is looking after your child? Of course feeding and clothing, but what about other things?


----------



## rottieboys

People do tend to keep having babies, even though they cannot afford them or have the right accommodation. Reading about a family five, mother expecting the next child complaining about all living in two rooms. Well, there is birth control out there. No sympathy from reader comments.


----------



## Deguslave

Several places where I've lived I've come across the same mentality; keep having kids because if you have one below the age of four, they can't force you to get a job. A lot of this stopped when the UK government bought in a two child cap on children's allowance.

There are families that openly admit that that's what they're doing. As soon as one reaches school age pop out another and not only will be government pay, the older kids will look after the others.


----------



## O2.0

Deguslave said:


> Several places where I've lived I've come across the same mentality; keep having kids because if you have one below the age of four, they can't force you to get a job. A lot of this stopped when the UK government bought in a two child cap on children's allowance.
> 
> There are families that openly admit that that's what they're doing. As soon as one reaches school age pop out another and not only will be government pay, the older kids will look after the others.


I know it happens that some people think this way, but most people do not, and looking at someone with kids who is struggling financially and assuming that they expect a handout is not accurate and not kind. 
The people I know who are struggling have jobs, they work long hours, they are not irresponsible or waiting for a hand out. They're facing an economy and expenses no one predicted and thus could not plan for.


----------



## rona

huckybuck said:


> Of course not the rich but be able to look after them yourself without expecting the state to do it for you.





Boxer123 said:


> To add families might start off being able to afford children but life changes; illness, death, divorce, job loss. Being charged £5000 a year for electricity.


I don't mind helping anyone out that's fallen on hard times, or even couples who only have one child but struggle to support themselves.
What I object to is the people who pump out kids for a living, or those that know they can't afford any more but still go ahead anyway


----------



## Boxer123

rona said:


> I don't mind helping anyone out that's fallen on hard times, or even couples who only have one child but struggle to support themselves.
> What I object to is the people who pump out kids for a living, or those that know they can't afford any more but still go ahead anyway


Often women who ‘pump out children for a living’ have no idea what else they can do sadly. Many are in abusive relationships with access to contraception denied. It tends to go in cycles with generations of families following the same pattern. Failed education and social care systems. 

Whilst I recognise some do milk the system for many the story is complicated and sad. The money paid in benefits is a drop in the ocean compared to rich tax avoidance and yet we get more angry about it.


----------



## O2.0

Boxer123 said:


> rich tax avoidance


And corporate tax avoidance

If they can keep us angry with each other, they can go on with corporations doing whatever they want with impunity because we're too busy blaming Susie down the road for having more kids than she can afford. 
And don't forget to call her a baby killer if she decides to have an abortion instead... If those stay available!


----------



## rona

I've always been annoyed about supporting other people to have kids. 
It's not just the handouts, it's the hospital costs, the schooling costs and the fact that they are replacing more than themselves when the Earth is struggling with the plague at it's current levels.
To be honest, I cannot see why anyone would willing have a child when the world is dying


----------



## O2.0

rona said:


> To be honest, I cannot see why anyone would willing have a child when the world is dying


Maybe some of us hold out hope that our children will grow up to make a positive difference, help others, and be a force of good.


----------



## rona

rona said:


> I've always been annoyed about supporting other people to have kids.
> It's not just the handouts, it's the hospital costs, the schooling costs and the fact that they are replacing more than themselves when the Earth is struggling with the plague at it's current levels.
> To be honest, I cannot see why anyone would willing have a child when the world is dying


I first had this opinion in 1970, I know that because that's when I knew for sure that I would never have children. It was before I left school and before Maggie


----------



## Boxer123

rona said:


> I've always been annoyed about supporting other people to have kids.
> It's not just the handouts, it's the hospital costs, the schooling costs and the fact that they are replacing more than themselves when the Earth is struggling with the plague at it's current levels.
> To be honest, I cannot see why anyone would willing have a child when the world is dying


I agree with your last sentence if I had children right now I would be very worried. Interestingly the birth rate is falling so perhaps the problem isn’t children. However children also offer hope weren’t we all children once ? You have also accessed health care and school so why you and not them? Without them we are a dying society. Gosh this is getting deep for a Saturday.


----------



## rona

O2.0 said:


> Maybe some of us hold out hope that our children will grow up to make a positive difference, help others, and be a force of good.


There can be a huge percentage of the human race which are "good". Won't make a jots worth of difference


----------



## rona

Boxer123 said:


> I agree with your last sentence if I had children right now I would be very worried. Interestingly the birth rate is falling so perhaps the problem isn’t children. However children also offer hope weren’t we all children once ? You have also accessed health care and school so why you and not them? Without them we are a dying society. Gosh this is getting deep for a Saturday.


We are talking parent choice not once they are here. I am already here, nothing I can do about that


----------



## Deguslave

Boxer123 said:


> However children also offer hope weren’t we all children once ?


We were, but none of us chose to be born and none of us chose to be human.


----------



## Boxer123

Deguslave said:


> We were, but none of us chose to be born and none of us chose to be human.


Exactly neither did the children we are complaining about supporting….. I think I’m going to step away now because I’m confused by the logic.


----------



## rona

Boxer123 said:


> Exactly neither did the children we are complaining about supporting….. I think I’m going to step away now because I’m confused by the logic.


It's not the children we are upset with, it's the parents who should never have had them

They should never be here for us to support


----------



## Deguslave

rona said:


> It's not the children we are upset with, it's the parents who should never have had them
> 
> They should never be here for us to support


Exactly! Being born is not a choice, having children is.


----------



## O2.0

rona said:


> There can be a huge percentage of the human race which are "good". Won't make a jots worth of difference


I have more hope than you. 

Have you not heard of the starfish story?

*Once upon a time, there was an old man who used to go to the ocean to do his writing.* He had a habit of walking on the beach every morning before he began his work. Early one morning, he was walking along the shore after a big storm had passed and found the vast beach littered with starfish as far as the eye could see, stretching in both directions. 

Off in the distance, the old man noticed a small boy approaching. As the boy walked, he paused every so often and as he grew closer, the man could see that he was occasionally bending down to pick up an object and throw it into the sea. The boy came closer still and the man called out, “Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?”

The young boy paused, looked up, and replied “Throwing starfish into the ocean. The tide has washed them up onto the beach and they can’t return to the sea by themselves,” the youth replied. “When the sun gets high, they will die, unless I throw them back into the water.”

The old man replied, “But there must be tens of thousands of starfish on this beach. I’m afraid you won’t really be able to make much of a difference.”

The boy bent down, picked up yet another starfish and threw it as far as he could into the ocean. Then he turned, smiled and said, “It made a difference to that one!”​
_adapted from The Star Thrower, by Loren Eiseley (1907 – 1977)_



*_*

But agree that this is getting deep for a Saturday and not sure how much I want to subject myself to hearing how selfish or stupid or irresponsible I am for choosing to have children.


----------



## Boxer123

rona said:


> It's not the children we are upset with, it's the parents who should never have had them
> 
> They should never be here for us to support


But we all tap into the system and except support. If I suddenly became disabled or seriously I’ll I would except support. We are all supporting each other. 

So we are using the resources but saying after us that’s it let the planet recover ? Is that the theory?

As @O2.2 says whilst we argue amongst ourselves the rich are laughing and my god they are laughing this week. The super wealthy are responsible for the majority of climate change.

Anyway my two nieces are beautiful and perfect and give me hope for a better world.

Edit to add the birth rate is falling so it’s not this generation over using.


----------



## Siskin

rona said:


> I first had this opinion in 1970, I know that because that's when I knew for sure that I would never have children. It was before I left school and before Maggie


You’re not alone with that thought in the ‘70’s, some friend of ours felt terribly guilty about having children due to what was going on in the world, Russia and bombs being one of them. Seems the years passing haven’t changed much


----------



## Siskin

Boxer123 said:


> But we all tap into the system and except support. If I suddenly became disabled or seriously I’ll I would except support. We are all supporting each other.
> 
> So we are using the resources but saying after us that’s it let the planet recover ? Is that the theory?
> 
> As @O2.2 says whilst we argue amongst ourselves the rich are laughing and my god they are laughing this week. The super wealthy are responsible for the majority of climate change.
> 
> Anyway my two nieces are beautiful and perfect and give me hope for a better world.
> 
> Edit to add the birth rate is falling so it’s not this generation over using.


Talking of rich and also privileged, the climate change preacher Prince Harry zoomed off in a private jet to play polo. And it’s absolutely no good saying that he will offset the carbon he used by planting trees or something as it’s not something that really works in the long run. Big business is buying up hundreds of acres of good arable land in order to plant trees and offset carbon from their jet setting lifestyle. So the mere plebs can starve whilst they carry on enjoying super dooper holidays on enormous yachts and boast about it on Instagram.
The trees that are planted rarely reach maturity (100 years or so) as the millions of grey squirrels in this country think it’s great fun to debark the trees. If anyone didn’t see it there was a report about the grey squirrel problem on countryfile last Sunday.


----------



## Boxer123

Siskin said:


> Talking of rich and also privileged, the climate change preacher Prince Harry zoomed off in a private jet to play polo. And it’s absolutely no good saying that he will offset the carbon he used by planting trees or something as it’s not something that really works in the long run. Big business is buying up hundreds of acres of good arable land in order to plant trees and offset carbon from their jet setting lifestyle. So the mere plebs can starve whilst they carry on enjoying super dooper holidays on enormous yachts and boast about it on Instagram.
> The trees that are planted rarely reach maturity (100 years or so) as the millions of grey squirrels in this country think it’s great fun to debark the trees. If anyone didn’t see it there was a report about the grey squirrel problem on countryfile last Sunday.


Exactly these people are the problem you can’t offset not really it’s a nice gesture but in reality means little. He told us to only have two children yet his kids will have a much bigger climate footprint than Susie down the roads 5 children.


----------



## Siskin

Boxer123 said:


> Exactly these people are the problem you can’t offset not really it’s a nice gesture but in reality means little. He told us to only have two children yet his kids will have a much bigger climate footprint than Susie down the roads 5 children.


Think of all the toilet paper in the 11 bedrooms they are alleged to have on the their posh house🤣


----------



## rona

Boxer123 said:


> But we all tap into the system and except support. If I suddenly became disabled or seriously I’ll I would except support. We are all supporting each other.


That wouldn't be a choice and I would expect to support anyone that became ill.


Boxer123 said:


> So we are using the resources but saying after us that’s it let the planet recover ? Is that the theory?


What's the alternative?


Boxer123 said:


> As @O2.2 says whilst we argue amongst ourselves the rich are laughing and my god they are laughing this week. The super wealthy are responsible for the majority of climate change.


They are, that's why I said it doesn't matter two hoots how good the rest are...................and they still use resources


Boxer123 said:


> Edit to add the birth rate is falling so it’s not this generation over using.


But the world population is still growing!!
Too little too late


----------



## rona

Siskin said:


> Think of all the toilet paper in the 11 bedrooms they are alleged to have on the their posh house🤣


They can't use any more than if they had one bathroom


----------



## Deguslave

rona said:


> They can't use any more than if they had one bathroom


They need more than most, they're so full of s**t, lol.


----------



## kimthecat

huckybuck said:


> Of course not the rich but be able to look after them yourself without expecting the state to do it for you.


But circumstances change. What if you were married and your husband dumped you and your children and run off with someone else and failed to pay maintenance , would you be able to support yourself? My friends husband died of cancer when she was in her mid thirties leaving her with two chiildren , she took on a full time job but it wasn't enough to support her and she couldnt pay her mortgage.


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> Just because you have kids should not mean you are entitled to handouts from the govt.
> 
> It’s a choice to have them and you should be able to afford them without expecting the state to help.


Many could afford children when they had them but now inflation is rising it's much, much harder


----------



## kimthecat

rona said:


> I've always been annoyed about supporting other people to have kids.
> It's not just the handouts, it's the hospital costs, the schooling costs and the fact that they are replacing more than themselves when the Earth is struggling with the plague at it's current levels.
> To be honest, I cannot see why anyone would willing have a child when the world is dying


It is worrying for the future But those children will grow up to be nurses , doctors , and carers , to support our aging population .


----------



## huckybuck

Mum threw my Dad out when I was 4 as he was an alcoholic. She worked full time as a single Mum with no help from the state. This was in the early 70s. She took Dad to court numerous times to try to get maintenance and in the end was awarded the house to live in (though was still half Dad’s). No other money. I did get free milk and a free school lunch mind you.

So yes if circumstances change then I’d like to think there would be help for people left in a vulnerable situation for no fault of their own. But ultimately Mum worked for us to survive.


----------



## kimthecat

Siskin said:


> Think of all the toilet paper in the 11 bedrooms they are alleged to have on the their posh house🤣


and quilted toilet paper ! Remember that horrible cheap Izal back in the day .


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> It is worrying for the future But those children will grow up to be nurses , doctors , and carers , to support our aging population .


They may, but they/we are killing the world and I still don't want to support their parents to have them if the parents have more than one and can't afford them.

Somehow, I think most are missing my point............

It's not the children I have issues with, it's the parents


----------



## stuaz

How I see it, we can’t wait till we can afford children as that may never happen so we will end up with a much larger class divide as only then the “rich” will have children and subsequently means only a certain type of people will end up as CEO’s, in political power, or other forms of power.

However, if you have one or two children already and are unemployed or otherwise financially struggling, then I think it would be irresponsible to have *more* children.


----------



## SbanR

Boxer123 said:


> Exactly these people are the problem you can’t offset not really it’s a nice gesture but in reality means little. He told us to only have two children yet his kids will have a much bigger climate footprint than Susie down the roads 5 children.


He's changed his tune hasn't he? 
Didn't he originally say he and Meghan were only going to have one child?


----------



## Siskin

SbanR said:


> He's changed his tune hasn't he?
> Didn't he originally say he and Meghan were only going to have one child?


I thought that too


----------



## Deguslave

SbanR said:


> He's changed his tune hasn't he?
> Didn't he originally say he and Meghan were only going to have one child?


She has three kids; Archie, Lillibet and the one she married, lol


----------



## Boxer123

SbanR said:


> He's changed his tune hasn't he?
> Didn't he originally say he and Meghan were only going to have one child?


It’s possible it’s hard to keep up


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> But circumstances change. What if you were married and your husband dumped you and your children and run off with someone else and failed to pay maintenance , would you be able to support yourself? My friends husband died of cancer when she was in her mid thirties leaving her with two chiildren , she took on a full time job but it wasn't enough to support her and she couldnt pay her mortgage.


I thought you have to have insurance to cover the mortgage if one or the other dies. When we got our mortgage, we had to take out insurance.


----------



## Jobeth

rottieboys said:


> I thought you have to have insurance to cover the mortgage if one or the other dies. When we got our mortgage, we had to take out insurance.


You don’t have to. I had life insurance for my first house but not my second house. I’ve no dependents and the deposit I put down was enough that selling it if anything happened to me meant I’d not leave any debt.


----------



## rottieboys

I thought you had to. I have only bought one house and I remember Abbey said we needed insurance at that time.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I thought you had to. I have only bought one house and I remember Abbey said we needed insurance at that time.


It's very often in the terms of your mortgage. However, if you put in more than 50% of the buying price, I'm sure it wouldn't need to be


----------



## Boxer123

rona said:


> It's very often in the terms of your mortgage. However, if you put in more than 50% of the buying price, I'm sure it wouldn't need to be


Terms of the mortgage you have to have buildings in insurance but not life insurance. I was quoted a minimum of £70 a month for life insurance it’s very expensive which is why a lot of folk don’t have it.


----------



## rottieboys

I think it is a gamble, If you don n't take the life insurance. How would you managed to pay if one of you die. Like I said it was part of Abbey condition.


----------



## Boxer123

rottieboys said:


> I think it is a gamble, If you don n't take the life insurance. How would you managed to pay if one of you die. Like I said it was part of Abbey condition.


I live on my own. Of course it’s a gamble but it has become increasingly expensive.


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> I thought you had to. I have only bought one house and I remember Abbey said we needed insurance at that time.





Boxer123 said:


> Terms of the mortgage you have to have buildings in insurance but not life insurance. I was quoted a minimum of £70 a month for life insurance it’s very expensive which is why a lot of folk don’t have it.



Note Abbey...............that was a long time ago


----------



## tristy

Deguslave said:


> She has three kids; Archie, Lillibet and the one she married, lol


where they named the girl after the Queen's nickname, didn't Prince Phillip call the Queen 'cabbage ' as a nickname / endearment and yet they chose Lillibet 🤣


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> I thought you had to. I have only bought one house and I remember Abbey said we needed insurance at that time.


Not sure if it's like this everywhere, but we remortgaged recently and while in the process it talked about life insurance there was no check in place to make sure we actually had life insurance. I'm sure when I originally took out the mortgage it was checked. I do have life insurance tho, and also in my pension a payment to my husband if I die. 

When I was growing up my dad wasn't great with money... He went bankrupt twice I think and we got evicted from our house. When he died he didn't have life insurance and my mum took on the debt and remaining mortgage payments. My family were very lucky as my grandparents helped my mum out. But I know a lot would not have been in that situation. I'm not sure what would have happened really, my mum had depression after my dad died and it lasted a long time. She didn't (and couldn't) work. Mental health conditions weren't really diagnosed in the same way back then. I should say she didn't get any help from benefits tho, other than I think a widows pension and child benefits.


----------



## GingerNinja

You don't need life insurance for mortgage purposes. It might be recommended, especially if others live in the house/are dependent on you, but if you live alone then the house can be sold to pay the mortgage.
I only ever had life "assurance" with my first property on my own (which just covered the mortgage) but after that didn't bother. My young son would not live in the house on his own and there was enough equity to allow for support to my parents, if they had to look after him.


----------



## rona

Isn't this partly what the mis selling was about?


----------



## GingerNinja

rona said:


> Isn't this partly what the mis selling was about?


Yes, I believe so.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> I thought you have to have insurance to cover the mortgage if one or the other dies. When we got our mortgage, we had to take out insurance.


Lenders insist on property insurance but not life insurance


----------



## kimthecat

rottieboys said:


> I thought you have to have insurance to cover the mortgage if one or the other dies. When we got our mortgage, we had to take out insurance.


It was a while back . I thiink you had the choice.

Do you need life insurance to get a mortgage? - Money To The Masses


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> It was a while back . I thiink you had the choice.
> 
> Do you need life insurance to get a mortgage? - Money To The Masses


Yes it was about 30 years ago. It might of been because my OH was self employed.


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> Sunak interrupted 22 times. Truss was calm. He was obvious been told by his supported , to interrupt, interrupt. He came across a snake to me. Liz next PM.


He's a bit too slick for my liking.


----------



## Happy Paws2

stuaz said:


> How I see it, we can’t wait till we can afford children as that may never happen so we will end up with a much larger class divide as only then the “rich” will have children and subsequently means only a certain type of people will end up as CEO’s, in political power, or other forms of power.
> 
> However, if you have one or two children already and are unemployed or otherwise financially struggling, then I think it would be irresponsible to have *more* children.



I don't see why we should pay to look after other peoples kids anyway, OH doesn't pay his taxes on his small pension to look after other peoples kids, if you can't support them yourself don't have them don't expect the governmet to look after them for you.

I know people fall on hard times but I know a few single Mothers who never done a days work and we are paying for them, they have mobile phones, Sky TV then moan they are hard up.

There is a young women up the road sho left school 5 years ago and is now expecting her fourth baby, I'd like to know how she's get away with it. The benifit system is so unfair, she shouldn't have got one penny after her first.


----------



## Psygon

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't see why we should pay to look after other peoples kids anyway, OH doesn't pay his taxes on his small pension to look after other peoples kids, if you can't support them yourself don't have them don't expect the governmet to look after them for you.
> 
> I know people fall on hard times but I know a few single Mothers who never done a days work and we are paying for them, they have mobile phones, Sky TV then moan they are hard up.
> 
> There is a young women up the road sho left school 5 years ago and is now expecting her fourth baby, I'd like to know how she's get away with it. The benifit system is so unfair, she shouldn't have got one penny after her first.


The way the benefit system works you do get money for all your children for child benefits, but the weekly amount reduces for each child after the first. For Universal Credits (and tax credits if you’ve not been moved on to UC) you only get benefits for the first two children. There is also a benefit cap, so if you are receiving child benefit and other benefits you may not receive benefits for all your children because you may have reached the cap. I think the cap is around £20k (which I do appreciate is a lot of money to be receiving in benefits when the average income in this country is something like 28k).

I’m not trying to say the system is fair or unfair. Just I’m not sure everyone knows about the change that means you can’t get universal credit and tax credits if you have more than 2 children. Certainly even parents who have a third child seem unaware of it. There are some exceptions to the rule, but the exceptions are for things like if you adopt the children of a relative who died, or if your child was conceived through rape.


----------



## Boxer123

Psygon said:


> The way the benefit system works you do get money for all your children for child benefits, but the weekly amount reduces for each child after the first. For Universal Credits (and tax credits if you’ve not been moved on to UC) you only get benefits for the first two children. There is also a benefit cap, so if you are receiving child benefit and other benefits you may not receive benefits for all your children because you may have reached the cap. I think the cap is around £20k (which I do appreciate is a lot of money to be receiving in benefits when the average income in this country is something like 28k).
> 
> I’m not trying to say the system is fair or unfair. Just I’m not sure everyone knows about the change that means you can’t get universal credit and tax credits if you have more than 2 children. Certainly even parents who have a third child seem unaware of it. There are some exceptions to the rule, but the exceptions are for things like if you adopt the children of a relative who died, or if your child was conceived through rape.


Well said might seem alot but not compared to the money our MPs are claiming for their energy bills !


----------



## Pawscrossed

Slick or Thick... what a choice (sounds like a new album for a heavy metal band)


----------



## Pawscrossed

They wanted to tax those of us who aren't having children @Happy Paws2 (even though I contribute to my partner's step children's upbringing) 








Should we tax the childless?


The latest census has revealed plummeting birth rates and an ageing population. The UK needs radical ideas and a long-term plan to prevent crippling workforce shortages in the near future, argues demographer Paul Morland




www.thetimes.co.uk













Taxing the childless, and other ways to kick us when we’re down


When the thing which irritates me most about a comment piece is that it praises Boris Johnson for the amount of children he’s fathered, it…




clairwoodwardwords.medium.com












Levy an equality before a childless tax


This Sunday I spent an hour with Michael and Sarah, talking all things Full Stop — the longest running childess podcast. I felt proud of…




medium.com












Tax the childless! Encourage ‘our own’ to breed! What an asinine, inhumane way to tackle a population crisis | Zoe Williams


The demographer Paul Morland has some novel ideas for rejuvenating Britain’s ageing population. That’s ‘novel’ as in unacceptable




www.theguardian.com





I don't begrudge paying my taxes to support parents, but I won't pay anymore when there's so many for whom being without a child isn't a choice. It's a judgement too far. I think this died a death briefly, but will come back again as it often does.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't see why we should pay to look after other peoples kids anyway, OH doesn't pay his taxes on his small pension to look after other peoples kids, if you can't support them yourself don't have them don't expect the governmet to look after them for you.
> 
> I know people fall on hard times but I know a few single Mothers who never done a days work and we are paying for them, they have mobile phones, Sky TV then moan they are hard up.
> 
> There is a young women up the road sho left school 5 years ago and is now expecting her fourth baby, I'd like to know how she's get away with it. The benifit system is so unfair, she shouldn't have got one penny after her first.


It's other people's children who look after you. Or do you have children of your own that provide all the social care you need?


----------



## Happy Paws2

OrientalSlave said:


> It's other people's children who look after you. Or do you have children of your own that provide all the social care you need?



I just oject to paying for kids who's perants just keeping having them when they can't afford them and expecting the tax payer to pay for them.


----------



## kimthecat

OrientalSlave said:


> It's other people's children who look after you. Or do you have children of your own that provide all the social care you need?


and also pay for our Government pension. BTW Our Government pensions are a benefit too ! 

Benefits have changed so much over the years.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Just leaving this here…










(not being flippant about the situation the country is in, it just made me smile)


----------



## tristy

kimthecat said:


> and also pay for our Government pension. BTW Our Government pensions are a benefit too !
> 
> Benefits have changed so much over the years.


I thought that I have worked for 40 odd years to earn my pension, paying my taxes and national insurance stamp.


----------



## rona

tristy said:


> I thought that I have worked for 40 odd years to earn my pension, paying my taxes and national insurance stamp.


That's what I was told when young. I was working toward my own pension. I just wonder when the message changed?


----------



## kimthecat

The DWP stands for works and pensions . Government pensions have always been based on your National Insurance stamp . Its contribution based .You;re entitled to it Technically it is a benefit you claim and how much you get depends on how many years contribution.

Back in the day , I claimed unemployment benefit and sickness benefit based on my National Insurance stamp which I was entitled to.


----------



## Lurcherlad

kimthecat said:


> The DWP stands for works and pensions . Government pensions have always been based on your National Insurance stamp . Its contribution based .You;re entitled to it Technically it is a benefit you claim and how much you get depends on how many years contribution.
> 
> Back in the day , I claimed unemployment benefit and sickness benefit based on my National Insurance stamp which I was entitled to.


Likewise … I thought I was paying in for my retirement, etc. throughout my working life. As well as paying Income Tax, Council Tax, etc.

The only time I signed on, having been made redundant with a meagre payout, I signed off 2 weeks later having joined a temp agency and was back working and earning (and contributing) and paying Tax!

So I never actually took a penny (nor any of my family before me btw, having always worked and paid their way).

Yet still I got a visit from a man from the DSS to check on the validity of my claim!

I suggested (quite strongly) that they checked out the claimants who had never done a day’s work in their lives (whole families even) instead, rather than me, who had worked constantly since leaving college 17 years previously!


----------



## OrientalSlave

kimthecat said:


> The DWP stands for works and pensions . Government pensions have always been based on your National Insurance stamp . Its contribution based .You;re entitled to it Technically it is a benefit you claim and how much you get depends on how many years contribution.
> 
> Back in the day , I claimed unemployment benefit and sickness benefit based on my National Insurance stamp which I was entitled to.


But it's today's tax payers who are paying for pensions, not money saved on your behalf over the past so many years.


----------



## Deguslave

That's right, its the generation coming up who'll be responsible for our pensions.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Your experience sounds similar to my Mum's @Lurcherlad - she had worked all of her life (37 years in her last job) and got made redundant six months before she was due to retire. Given that she had never claimed a penny in her life and paid in full stamp, I encouraged her to sign on. She did but they made it so difficult for her (making her go for job interviews etc., which basically involved several "trial days" of work, where she worked whole days for free) that she stopped very soon after. It saddened me.


----------



## kimthecat

OrientalSlave said:


> But it's today's tax payers who are paying for pensions, not money saved on your behalf over the past so many years.





Deguslave said:


> That's right, its the generation coming up who'll be responsible for our pensions.


Yes indeed , it was mentioned earlier when it was questioned about brinigng more children into the world.


----------



## kimthecat

Tonights the night ! The vote is at 5pm.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> Tonights the night ! The vote is at 5pm.


 and the result at 5pm monday and g** help us all, we'll need it.


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> and the result at 5pm monday and g** help us all, we'll need it.


I would say let the best person win, but I'm not sure I want either of them.


----------



## Blackadder

Happy Paws2 said:


> and the result at 5pm monday and g** help us all, we'll need it.


Aw c'mon be positive...... it can't get much worse can it?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Thats probably true of every PM or wanna be PM Didn't Corbyn promise to pay off student loans , not that it did him any good.


 You're right, he did.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Blackadder said:


> Aw c'mon be positive...... it can't get much worse can it?



Can't it, we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## Blackadder




----------



## Blackadder

Just trying to inject a little light into the dark is all


----------



## kimthecat

Blackadder said:


> Just trying to inject a little light into the dark is all


I know. But it is a little scary,


----------



## Blackadder

It is scary but there are worse things & we will come through it 

I was scared but stuff it...


----------



## Boxer123




----------



## OrientalSlave

Boxer123 said:


> View attachment 576736


_Some_ train journeys in Spain will be free of charge from 1 September to 31 December. Not all. 








Spain: Free train travel scheme extended until December 2023


The policy could be here to stay with commuters being encouraged to ditch their cars in favour of taking the train.




www.euronews.com





The German 9Eu train tickets ended on 31st August and didn't include long-distance ICE (Intercity Express), IC (Intercity), EC (Eurocity) or Thalys connections. 








Everything you need to know about Germany's 9-euro ticket | DW | 01.06.2022


To cushion rising fuel and living costs, German lawmakers have introduced a discounted nation-wide travel pass for June, July and August this year. Here's everything you need to know about the 9-euro travel pass.




www.dw.com





France has a lot of (old) nuclear generators - the things NIMBYs rarely let be built here - some areas have a lot of hydro, plus the government is intervening including banning air conditioning in some circumstances, and reducing illuminated advertising. The French energy cap is costing it's tax payers £7 billion.









Le gouvernement interdit la climatisation des magasins portes ouvertes et réduit la publicité lumineuse


Laisser les portes ouvertes, « c’est 20 % de consommation en plus et (…) c’est absurde », a expliqué la ministre de la transition énergétique, Agnès Pannier-Runacher. Les décrets annoncés s’inspirent d’une réglementation déjà existante et mal appliquée.




www.lemonde.fr













Which countries are doing the most to tackle energy bills?


European countries have taken different approaches to higher energy bills.



www.bbc.co.uk





And it was Johnson, not 'the Government' that suggested buying a new kettle.









Watch: Boris Johnson tells Brits to buy a new kettle to save £10 on energy bills


The outgoing prime minister suggested buying a £20 kettle would save people £10 a year as energy bills soar




www.standard.co.uk


----------



## kimthecat

new PM to be announced at 12.30. Half an hour to go.


----------



## huckybuck

Whoever it is I am waiting to see the media bashing. Whatever they decide to do I am waiting for people to moan it’s not enough. I find the whole thing very sad.


----------



## kimthecat

Its Liz!


----------



## Siskin

I wouldn’t fancy her in tray at the moment. Good luck Liz, you’re going to need it as I’m sure there will be a whole load of nasty haters waiting in the wings to have a go


----------



## Deguslave

I think the knives would be out no matter who got in.

Wonder if she'll call a general election?


----------



## huckybuck

She won’t call a GE. 

But tbh I am so despondent by the attitude of most people in this country I am at the stage where I would almost welcome it. We will bring down whoever is in power. 

Nothing will ever be enough.


----------



## StormyThai




----------



## Deguslave

I think poor Larry's probably quoting Brenda from Bristol 'you're joking, not another one!'


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I can only say I was surprised in the end by the closeness of the vote. I honestly don't think there is any way out for any PM at the moment. No matter what they do, whether they are Tory or Labour, it would not be deemed as being enough. If a GE is called, everyone will expect miracles in two years - which of course would never happen and could never happen. Good luck, Ms Truss, rather you than me! I think who she asks to form her cabinet will be crucial, be careful who you choose, Liz. We as a country need a little stability for a while I think and the very last thing we need is another vote of no confidence in a short period of time.


----------



## Cully

We need a leader we can trust. Sadly we haven't had one of those for a long time.


----------



## Deguslave

Priti Patel has resigned as Home Secretary.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

If you’ve a spare 90 seconds, this is most chucklesome. It’s very clever


----------



## Lurcherlad

Maybe she’ll appoint a whole female cabinet? That’ll shake things up! 😉

Thankfully, Priti Patel has resigned though 🙂


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> She won’t call a GE.
> 
> But tbh I am so despondent by the attitude of most people in this country I am at the stage where I would almost welcome it. We will bring down whoever is in power.
> 
> Nothing will ever be enough.


I think that if this week Liz produces something that looks like a plan that will help the most in need through winter, then I don't think people will want to bring her down. 

I'm sure a lot will still disagree with her other conservative policies, but it seems that a large majority of people just want the government to do something to help the people that are really going to struggle this winter - whether they are in that demographic or outside of it. 

I think people are reasonable -ish and they aren't going to clamour for more and more. They just want more than what Liz had previously been suggesting would be the majority of the support her government would provide. I appreciate that right now she is looking at a broader package, so maybe people will be able to look at that and be reassured. I'm certainly hoping that's the case.

I'm sure we've previously covered that I sometimes have quite optimistic beliefs 😂


----------



## Arny

Deguslave said:


> Priti Patel has resigned as Home Secretary.


That's one positive already.


----------



## Psygon

Arny said:


> That's one positive already.


I think Suella Braverman is being touted as the next home secretary. I think she is a lot more to the right than Priti Patel...


----------



## Arny

Psygon said:


> I think Suella Braverman is being touted as the next home secretary. I think she is a lot more to the right than Priti Patel...


I'll be honest I don't know who that is but I can't stand Priti Patel.
Just waiting for Boris to be appointed something.


----------



## Deguslave

I'm not a fan of Priti Patel either, I just want to slap that smug look off her face, especially as she's nothing to look smug about. She hasn't exactly done a brilliant job as Home Secretary.


----------



## Psygon

Arny said:


> I'll be honest I don't know who that is but I can't stand Priti Patel.
> Just waiting for Boris to be appointed something.


This is her voting record (which I know won't tell the full story as in some instances MPs vote with the party - but can give a bit of a view on political stance).








Voting record - Suella Braverman MP, Fareham


See how Suella Braverman voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.




www.theyworkforyou.com





For comparison here is Priti Patel.








Voting record - Priti Patel MP, Witham


See how Priti Patel voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.




www.theyworkforyou.com


----------



## Deguslave

As someone who can't work due to disabilities and lives in a damp decaying council flat, neither of them have a great voting record.


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> As someone who can't work due to disabilities and lives in a damp decaying council flat, neither of them have a great voting record.


No 🙁 like I said it can be a bit misleading as they will vote along party lines. But there are issues on both records where I was a bit surprised by how they'd voted.


----------



## Arny

Psygon said:


> This is her voting record (which I know won't tell the full story as in some instances MPs vote with the party - but can give a bit of a view on political stance).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voting record - Suella Braverman MP, Fareham
> 
> 
> See how Suella Braverman voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theyworkforyou.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For comparison here is Priti Patel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Voting record - Priti Patel MP, Witham
> 
> 
> See how Priti Patel voted on topics like Employment, Social Issues, Foreign Policy, and more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theyworkforyou.com


Sadly the same as my MP.. even when he's no longer a whip.


----------



## tristy

I put the TV on this morning for the news and Boris was on every channel. It's not news that he's going and TBH it's not big news that we have another PM, but every channel , it felt like we were being brainwashed as in a communist country. I turned the TV off.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Psygon said:


> I think Suella Braverman is being touted as the next home secretary. I think she is a lot more to the right than Priti Patel...


Is she so far to the right she's coming in from the left? Sorry phrase going round Leeds University Union some 45 years ago about one of the student politicos.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Deguslave said:


> I'm not a fan of Priti Patel either, I just want to slap that smug look off her face, especially as she's nothing to look smug about. She hasn't exactly done a brilliant job as Home Secretary.


Her parents were economic migrants, from India to Uganda and then Uganda to the UK. Yet she objects to current economic migration...


----------



## OrientalSlave

Deguslave said:


> I'm not a fan of Priti Patel either, I just want to slap that smug look off her face, especially as she's nothing to look smug about. She hasn't exactly done a brilliant job as Home Secretary.


'slap'? It's OK to commit violence against people you disagree with? I agree she's been a dreadful Home Secretary, but hit her? Really? If you trot out 'figure of speech' remember that's used to justify all sorts of racists, sexist, homophobic etc. remarks.


----------



## Blackadder

OrientalSlave said:


> 'slap'? It's OK to commit violence against people you disagree with? I agree she's been a dreadful Home Secretary, but hit her? Really? If you trot out 'figure of speech' remember that's used to justify all sorts of racists, sexist, homophobic etc. remarks.


 Wow!


----------



## rottieboys

tristy said:


> I put the TV on this morning for the news and Boris was on every channel. It's not news that he's going and TBH it's not big news that we have another PM, but every channel , it felt like we were being brainwashed as in a communist country. I turned the TV off.


Who is being brainwashed, not me. Well done for turning the telly off, that is what the off button is for.


----------



## Siskin

There has been a lot of nasty comments about Liz in places like Twitter and some so called comedy programs which seems uncalled for. Why don’t people give her a chance before condemning her. There are some viscous people about who’s only joy seems to be as nasty as possible about others in order to get a few likes.


----------



## Happy Paws2

When she says that the rich should get more out for the tax cuts than the poor, she deserves what she get's.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Just before she arrives at No.10 it's raining....


----------



## huckybuck

Siskin said:


> There has been a lot of nasty comments about Liz in places like Twitter and some so called comedy programs which seems uncalled for. Why don’t people give her a chance before condemning her. There are some viscous people about who’s only joy seems to be as nasty as possible about others in order to get a few likes.


This is what our world is coming to. People are so negative about everything and everyone. It’s become a way of life. No wonder everyone is miserable and depressed and got mental health issues. With that mindset it’s hardly surprising.

You reap what you sow 3 fold.


----------



## huckybuck

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just before she arrives at No.10 it's raining....


It’s lucky 🍀


----------



## Siskin

huckybuck said:


> This is what our world is coming to. People are so negative about everything and everyone. It’s become a way of life. No wonder everyone is miserable and depressed and got mental health issues. With that mindset it’s hardly surprising.
> 
> You reap what you sow 3 fold.


Do agree with you there, I do have a more optimistic view of life in general despite some depressing things happening to me.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> Just before she arrives at No.10 it's raining....


Why are you so nasty. remember, what goes round comes round.  Well done Liz.


----------



## Deguslave

The proof of the pudding is in the eating I suppose so we'll see how she does in the next few weeks/months.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Well done Liz.



Sorry but


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> Sorry but


What's so funny about the rain coming down today. You, are what of those remoaner who cannot get their head round about Brexit. We voted OUT. Like I said before you are really a nasty person. Oh by the way, I am glad it rain today. We need it. But, it did stop when Liz arrived. Good for her 😋


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> What's so funny about the rain coming down today. You, are what of those remoaner who cannot get their head round about Brexit. We voted OUT. Like I said before you are really a nasty person. Oh by the way, I am glad it rain today. We need it. But, it did stop when Liz arrived. Good for her 😋


I'm not really sure you can call someone out for being nasty when you've essentially just been nasty to them about their Brexit views. 

I guess in general views are fairly firmly held, and it's easy to slip into throwing barbs across at each other. But I think if we want people to stop being nasty or to stop pushing negative views we have to do that on both sides of an argument or political divide. 

Under no illusions that that's not likely to happen tho 😁 (and to be clear I'm not talking about on petforums, more in general terms about the left and right).


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> When she says that the rich should get more out for the tax cuts than the poor, she deserves what she get's.


What is she going to get. Give her a chance, we all might get more money out of this.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well, I hope that we as a country can start to blooming well move forward to try to sort out the mess we are in. I'd very much like to not have a Tory government but the current alternative is just not viable. So in the meantime, let's hope things improve, somehow.


----------



## rottieboys

Siskin said:


> There has been a lot of nasty comments about Liz in places like Twitter and some so called comedy programs which seems uncalled for. Why don’t people give her a chance before condemning her. There are some viscous people about who’s only joy seems to be as nasty as possible about others in order to get a few likes.


There are people on this forums who also cannot say nice thing about Any of the conservative Government. Like you, I call them nasty . Poor Liz, Thank god we think with different views without being bitchy or spiteful.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> There are people on this forums who also cannot say nice thing about Any of the conservative Government. Like you, I call them nasty . Poor Liz, Thank god we think with different views without being bitchy or spiteful.


Again, not wanting to point fingers, but I can't recall any time when you've posted a nice comment about anyone in the labour party either. 

As said above, if you want people to not be nasty then you have to take responsibility for the things you say too. And like I said above I know that it's unlikely that anyone is going to start being nice about people they view as having very opposing views to their own ...

Anyway, I'm not a fan of Liz. Of the two final candidates i think I had a slight preference for Rishi... But it was only slight. However, I am pleased that her rhetoric around what needs to be done around energy bills in particular has changed and that it looks like a package of support is coming. 

I am a bit disappointed that it looks to be universal, as I think for fairness it would have been good to see something a bit more progressive, where those that can afford it pay more over a certain threshold (which would help encourage more responsible energy saving behavior I guess). 

I hope that it gets the support it needs to be implemented quite quickly and that the government can get on and start to look at how to solve all the other big issues (even though I am sure I won't agree with a lot of the approaches...).


----------



## stuaz

rottieboys said:


> What's so funny about the rain coming down today. You, are what of those remoaner who cannot get their head round about Brexit. We voted OUT. Like I said before you are really a nasty person. Oh by the way, I am glad it rain today. We need it. But, it did stop when Liz arrived. Good for her 😋


To be fair to @Happy Paws2 she never mentioned Brexit. Do we have to keep reducing politics down to one issue?


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> Again, not wanting to point fingers, but I can't recall any time when you've posted a nice comment about anyone in the labour party either.
> 
> As said above, if you want people to not be nasty then you have to take responsibility for the things you say too. And like I said above I know that it's unlikely that anyone is going to start being nice about people they view as having very opposing views to their own ...
> 
> Anyway, I'm not a fan of Liz. Of the two final candidates i think I had a slight preference for Rishi... But it was only slight. However, I am pleased that her rhetoric around what needs to be done around energy bills in particular has changed and that it looks like a package of support is coming.
> 
> I am a bit disappointed that it looks to be universal, as I think for fairness it would have been good to see something a bit more progressive, where those that can afford it pay more over a certain threshold (which would help encourage more responsible energy saving behavior I guess).
> 
> I hope that it gets the support it needs to be implemented quite quickly and that the government can get on and start to look at how to solve all the other big issues (even though I am sure I won't agree with a lot of the approaches...).


Please point out the nasty comments I have made about a particular labour person. I, seem to stick up about unfair comments made by others. Just give Liz a chance. What is wrong with that. The only thing is, If your not a conservative supporter. Then it doesn't matter what they do. It will never be good enough.


----------



## rottieboys

stuaz said:


> To be fair to @Happy Paws2 she never mentioned Brexit. Do we have to keep reducing politics down to one issue?


Sorry, but she has. Please read back her threads. Well done Liz for being the next Pm.


----------



## kimthecat

tristy said:


> I put the TV on this morning for the news and Boris was on every channel. It's not news that he's going and TBH it's not big news that we have another PM, but every channel , it felt like we were being brainwashed as in a communist country. I turned the TV off.


It;s not really brainwashing , it is the news. Its a major event that is happening and it would be shown around the world. 
I didnt turn it off , I truned it over and watched Pointless


----------



## rottieboys

kimthecat said:


> It;s not really brainwashing , it is the news. Its a major event that is happening and it would be shown around the world.
> I didnt turn it off , I truned it over and watched Pointless


Pointless, the repeat are going round and round. I saw that one about 2 months ago.


----------



## kimthecat

rottieboys said:


> Pointless, the repeat are going round and round. I saw that one about 2 months ago.


I missed those. I used to watch Neighbours then. 😢


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Please point out the nasty comments I have made about a particular labour person. I, seem to stick up about unfair comments made by others. Just give Liz a chance. What is wrong with that. The only thing is, If your not a conservative supporter. Then it doesn't matter what they do. It will never be good enough.


So I guess it's going to depend on your definition of nasty... multiple times in this thread you've posted information about Kier Starmer that's been proven to be factually incorrect, based on smears, or just entirely made up (things around Jimmy Saville and grooming gangs spring to mind). My definition of nasty includes repeatedly posting smears against a person - because the only reason to do it is to disparage their character. 

Maybe you should give Kier a chance and not just believe all the made up stuff?


----------



## stuaz

rottieboys said:


> Sorry, but she has. Please read back her threads. Well done Liz for being the next Pm.


At that point in the thread there was no discussion around Brexit, but you felt it was appropriate to bring it up as an insult (“remoaner”) because she mentioned the rain!


----------



## Deguslave

Changing the subject slightly, I think Scotland has made a positive move to help with the cost of living crisis Rent freeze plan to tackle cost-of-living crisis in Scotland

With rents going up, but the Local Housing Allowance* staying the same, many on benefits are struggling to pay the extra rent and many will be evicted if the rest of the country doesn't follow this.

*for those that don't know, Local Housing Allowance is how much of your rent the government will pay if you rent privately and are on a low income.


----------



## ForestWomble

kimthecat said:


> It;s not really brainwashing , it is the news. Its a major event that is happening and it would be shown around the world.
> I didnt turn it off , I truned it over and watched *Pointless*


Off topic I know, but I do find it funny when looking through the TV guide and you see 'Pointless Celebrities' ......


----------



## Deguslave

ForestWomble said:


> Off topic I know, but I do find it funny when looking through the TV guide and you see 'Pointless Celebrities' ......


I thought most celebrities were pointless, lol.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> So I guess it's going to depend on your definition of nasty... multiple times in this thread you've posted information about Kier Starmer that's been proven to be factually incorrect, based on smears, or just entirely made up (things around Jimmy Saville and grooming gangs spring to mind). My definition of nasty includes repeatedly posting smears against a person - because the only reason to do it is to disparage their character.
> 
> Maybe you should give Kier a chance and not just believe all the made up stuff?


What is wrong to mention about the Asian grooming gangs. The police should be thoroughly ashamed of them selves. Yes, they are all in Labour borough. They should all be deported . That was not a nasty comment, that is a fact. Even the Labour Party isn't fond of their leader. If I want to speak out about facts I have read in the papers, I will.


----------



## rottieboys

stuaz said:


> At that point in the thread there was no discussion around Brexit, but you felt it was appropriate to bring it up as an insult (“remoaner”) because she mentioned the rain!


She was delighted that it started raining. Why. Was it because we was having a new PM, not to everyone liking.


----------



## stuaz

rottieboys said:


> She was delighted that it started raining. Why. Was it because we was having a new PM, not to everyone liking.


You could make that connection yes. A Tongue in cheek comment perhaps, Some could argue there is a metaphor some where about storms on the day of major political change.

But it’s ok to not like a prime minister and/or government and to voice those thoughts, obviously just insulting someone is not constructive.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> What is wrong to mention about the Asian grooming gangs. The police should be thoroughly ashamed of them selves. Yes, they are all in Labour borough. They should all be deported . That was not a nasty comment, that is a fact. Even the Labour Party isn't fond of their leader. If I want to speak out about facts I have read in the papers, I will.


I know I'm going to get no where with this argument. But it's wrong because you posted information as fact that has been repeatedly proven to be made up. And you posted it in a way to disparage the leader of the labour party. And when called out about that you just ignored it and moved on. 

How is that not nasty or negative? 

Your argument about asking people not to be nasty and saying people are nasty seems entirely one sided. It's absolutely fine for you and papers that support the conservative party to post and write nasty things about the labour party, but absolutely not for someone who supports the labour party to post something negative about the conservative party. And don't get me wrong I'm positive it works the other way too.

As said before, if you want people to not be nasty and negative both sides have to take that stance.

As an aside if it's ok to call out Kier because not all his party like him, it should be free reign on Liz too as not all her party like her either


----------



## rottieboys

I don n't post


stuaz said:


> You could make that connection yes. A Tongue in cheek comment perhaps, Some could argue there is a metaphor some where about storms on the day of major political change.
> 
> But it’s ok to not like a prime minister and/or government and to voice those thoughts, obviously just insulting someone is not constructive.


What are you saying insulting someone is not constructive, I agree give liz a chance. It's only been day 1 so far.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> I know I'm going to get no where with this argument. But it's wrong because you posted information as fact that has been repeatedly proven to be made up. And you posted it in a way to disparage the leader of the labour party. And when called out about that you just ignored it and moved on.
> 
> How is that not nasty or negative?
> 
> Your argument about asking people not to be nasty and saying people are nasty seems entirely one sided. It's absolutely fine for you and papers that support the conservative party to post and write nasty things about the labour party, but absolutely not for someone who supports the labour party to post something negative about the conservative party. And don't get me wrong I'm positive it works the other way too.
> 
> As said before, if you want people to not be nasty and negative both sides have to take that stance.
> 
> As an aside if it's ok to call out Kier because not all his party like him, it should be free reign on Liz too as not all her party like her either


Are you saying I am making it up about the Grooming gangs. Look up Samantha Smith. She was a victim. I am hearing all about it on GB news right now. Thankfully, Liz Trust is going to bring this up, after many many compliant. Quite right too. What has Liz Trust done to deserve these negative comments. We will all have a vote in 2 years time. Hopefully we will get the person we wanted.


----------



## Deguslave

There's a world of difference between constructive criticism and insults.


----------



## rottieboys

Deguslave said:


> There's a world of difference between constructive criticism and insults.


Now your going somewhere.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Are you saying I am making it up about the Grooming gangs. Look up Samantha Smith. She was a victim. I am hearing all about it on GB news right now. Thankfully, Liz Trust is going to bring this up, after many many compliant. Quite right too. What has Liz Trust done to deserve these negative comments. We will all have a vote in 2 years time. Hopefully we will get the person we wanted.


Earlier in this thread there is an instance where you had posted something about Kier and the grooming gangs where I posted a response which linked to a fact check which states that what you had posted was inaccurate and based on a video which had been deliberately created to discredit Kier. I'm not saying that everything about grooming gangs is inaccurate, and that there weren't massive problems in how it was investigated and how people were treated, but the way you have previously linked Kier into being responsible was. 

Your response to me was to carry on talking about it as if it was true, ignoring the factcheck link, and to say 'God help us if he ever becomes PM'. 

Which to me comes across as nasty. 

Again, don't get me wrong I know on both sides of the political spectrum nasty barbs are thrown, i just have an issue with people saying stop being nasty and negative when they are doing the same.


----------



## huckybuck

@Psygon 

I totally disagree that the “wealthy” should pay more for stuff (like energy). Why should they? Most people who are considered “wealthy” have worked hard to get where they have, taken risks on setting up business etc. All that does is discourage people from wanting to better themselves and have ambition.

Our energy bills are going through the roof like everyone else’s. We bought our “larger” 5 bed house as an investment - to be our pension fund in the future as neither of us had a workplace pension and we both went into personal pensions far too late.

We borrowed massively to buy the house and it was a big risk for us to take. We also had to cut back on everything to do it.

Now we are facing bills that are out of control just like everyone else. Why shouldn’t we get help too. We can’t afford to pay 20k a year (or more) for energy when we were originally paying 4k. In the same way a small business can’t do it or someone who was paying 1k and is now looking at 5k. 

You will probably talk about the percentage in relation to “disposable” income. At present the energy bills are equating to 1/3 of our income before any other bills go out. Last March they would have been 1/12. Yet I’m pretty sure you would be the first to point the finger at me and say I should be paying more for my energy to sub everyone else.


----------



## stuaz

rottieboys said:


> I don n't post
> 
> What are you saying insulting someone is not constructive, I agree give liz a chance. It's only been day 1 so far.


All I am saying is that a healthy debate doesn’t involve name calling.

Time will tell if Liz is a good prime minister or not, it waaaay to early to say ether way.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> @Psygon
> 
> I totally disagree that the “wealthy” should pay more for stuff (like energy). Why should they? Most people who are considered “wealthy” have worked hard to get where they have, taken risks on setting up business etc. All that does is discourage people from wanting to better themselves and have ambition.
> 
> Our energy bills are going through the roof like everyone else’s. We bought our “larger” 5 bed house as an investment - to be our pension fund in the future as neither of us had a workplace pension and we both went into personal pensions far too late.
> 
> We borrowed massively to buy the house and it was a big risk for us to take. We also had to cut back on everything to do it.
> 
> Now we are facing bills that are out of control just like everyone else. Why shouldn’t we get help too. We can’t afford to pay 20k a year (or more) for energy when we were originally paying 4k. In the same way a small business can’t do it or someone who was paying 1k and is now looking at 5k.
> 
> You will probably talk about the percentage in relation to “disposable” income. At present the energy bills are equating to 1/3 of our income before any other bills go out. Last March they would have been 1/12. Yet I’m pretty sure you would be the first to point the finger at me and say I should be paying more for my energy to sub everyone else.


To be clear I didn't say that wealthy shouldn't get any support at all. I said I thought it would be good if the help was a bit more progressive. And I also wasn't pointing fingers at you or anyone else - I'm not really sure why you think me suggesting a more progressive approach to support was having a go at you for being wealthy?

You seem to think I have something against wealthy people, i dont. It's also not about paying more to sub everyone else. I think it should be progressive because if there is no incentive to be more energy efficient then people won't be. So if the support is universal my belief is people won't feel the need to consider the energy they use.

I realise this is all a bit general but anyway...

In general terms people with more income can afford to power more stuff, because they have more stuff. Yes they may have worked hard to get all that stuff, and I'm not trying to say they shouldn't have that stuff, it's just they generally have more stuff.

If the support was targeted at say a number of units of energy you use then anyone who uses more than that (and who doesn't have something like a medical reason) can either pay more or figure out how to use less. It would be more complex to figure out but it has the benefit of encourage more energy efficiency.

I well realize that this may impact people like yourself who have seen bills go through the roof, it would impact me too. But it wasn't aimed at having a go at you which you seem to think it was. I'm genuinely confused as to why you have thought that to be honest.

Also just to add i have no idea what a number of units would be... Like I said this would be complex to figure out. Maybe it would be based on house size (square feet) or family size... I don't know. But it certainly wouldn't be aimed at totally penalizing people for being wealthy and living in big houses - just somehow figuring out what is reasonable to use.


----------



## Deguslave

I can see some of your points, but there are too many gaps for people to fall down using this strategy.

You say that if you use more energy, you should pay more per unit. But what about location? I live in the North where its naturally colder than the south so it takes more to heat my home and for lighting as we have more hours of darkness than the south.

I also live in council accommodation so I have very little say in things like what kind of heating I use, I also have very little say in things like insulation or when repairs are done. I currently need a new front door as its raining through the door, but I'm looking at a 12-18month wait and very draughty winter. That's going to push my gas bill up! 

I'm not rich, I live on benefits as I can't work due to disabilities, but I have no way of using less energy than I already do.


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> I can see some of your points, but there are too many gaps for people to fall down using this strategy.
> 
> You say that if you use more energy, you should pay more per unit. But what about location? I live in the North where its naturally colder than the south so it takes more to heat my home and for lighting as we have more hours of darkness than the south.
> 
> I also live in council accommodation so I have very little say in things like what kind of heating I use, I also have very little say in things like insulation or when repairs are done. I currently need a new front door as its raining through the door, but I'm looking at a 12-18month wait and very draughty winter. That's going to push my gas bill up!
> 
> I'm not rich, I live on benefits as I can't work due to disabilities, but I have no way of using less energy than I already do.


Like I said I know what I was saying wasn't perfect and it would be incredibly complex to work out. I was merely suggesting that having something that wasn't so blanket would be good. 

I guess my sense is that when all the talk was about bills going up there was the beginning of a shift in behavior to people looking at how to use less gas cooking and heating and using electric to power things. Which ultimately is a good shift in behavior as it encourages more responsible energy use (where appropriate). When the support package comes in, will that remain for those that can now more comfortably afford to pay? 

And again for avoidance of doubt this isn't having a go at wealthy people. And trying to take their money away. Very much trying to frame this around energy use, because that's where my head is at.


----------



## Deguslave

If you check, I think gas is currently cheaper to use, per unit, than electricity.


----------



## huckybuck

I don’t see how a blanket support package helps the “wealthy” any more? The proportion of help is actually less (if we base it on Rishi’s help of £300 per household). The bigger the household as you have said the higher the bills to begin with. So £300 doesn’t go as far if your bills are 20k a year as they do if they are 3.5k. 

Is it really fair to charge someone in a larger home more per Kw? All that will do is encourage people to downsize or certainly stop them moving up the ladder. Their bills are higher as you rightly pointed out - it’s a larger area to heat for a start - to charge more on top just puts people in a position that they’d have to sell.


----------



## Arny

Unfortunately I think it has to cover everyone just so that no one does fall through the cracks.
I believe there will be a way for those people that don’t need the £400 to ‘donate’ it either with their provider or some other way.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> I don’t see how a blanket support package helps the “wealthy” any more? The proportion of help is actually less (if we base it on Rishi’s help of £300 per household). The bigger the household as you have said the higher the bills to begin with. So £300 doesn’t go as far if your bills are 20k a year as they do if they are 3.5k.
> 
> Is it really fair to charge someone in a larger home more per Kw? All that will do is encourage people to downsize or certainly stop them moving up the ladder. Their bills are higher as you rightly pointed out - it’s a larger area to heat for a start - to charge more on top just puts people in a position that they’d have to sell.


But that isn't what I said? 

I said, acknowledging it would be complicated, figure out what is reasonable based on something like house size and then make the support progressive. I am not and have not ever suggested that some people shouldn't get support, infact I've said everyone should get some level of support as I realise nearly everyone needs some support. It's just an idea around trying to encourage that behavior change. 

So let's assume everyone in a 5 bed home of between 2000 and 2500 square feet has support directed at the first 100 units of energy they use because that's roughly what everyone in a 5 bed house of that size uses. If they use more than that amount then they get charged a higher rate on the energy they use over that. So they only pay more per kw on the power they are using that is deemed to be above the average. (Note all figures are entirely made up and just an example).

Like I said before it was very much about encouraging more energy efficiency... It wasn't specifically about wealth. Or house size. Or whatever. I know it's not perfect, maybe it wouldn't work. But it's a bit more thinking outside the box then just freezing bills entirely and not really doing a huge amount to promote better energy use.

I'm still hugely confused by why you are having a dig at me for my supposed views around wealthy people. Which I can only assume you are doing by putting wealthy in quote marks.


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> If you check, I think gas is currently cheaper to use, per unit, than electricity.


Sorry I should have said using less electric to power things. I missed out a less. Wasn't specifically saying looking at moving from gas to electric.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> I don’t see how a blanket support package helps the “wealthy” any more? The proportion of help is actually less (if we base it on Rishi’s help of £300 per household). The bigger the household as you have said the higher the bills to begin with. So £300 doesn’t go as far if your bills are 20k a year as they do if they are 3.5k.
> 
> Is it really fair to charge someone in a larger home more per Kw? All that will do is encourage people to downsize or certainly stop them moving up the ladder. Their bills are higher as you rightly pointed out - it’s a larger area to heat for a start - to charge more on top just puts people in a position that they’d have to sell.


I'm basing my progressive idea on what has been widely reported about what support is coming btw. Not just giving people something like £300 off bills, but the expectation that bills/price cap will be frozen at the current level for multiple years (think it was reported as 2 years).


----------



## huckybuck

I am not having a dig at you - you suggested those that can afford it pay more. 

Those that can afford it - I assumed (perhaps wrongly) you meant the wealthy. The wealthy was in quotation marks because who you think of as wealthy and who I do probably differs quite a lot.


----------



## Deguslave

But as I said, some properties take more than others to heat, and it has nothing to do with properties size. Its more to do with circumstances.

I get my energy from a green supplier, I've cut down all I can, but this is the state of the property I'm living in - and the council keep insisting that I'm adequately housed despite a ground shift beneath the building causing rising damp.

I should point out though, that the degus are housed well away from the damp area.


----------



## huckybuck

So your progressive idea would mean - me (because I can afford it) being charged more for my energy so that I have to reduce my energy consumption, while someone else doesn’t have to cut their usage because they are on a lower tariff/live in a smaller property.

So those that can afford it will end up freezing because they won’t be able to afford it.


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> But as I said, some properties take more than others to heat, and it has nothing to do with properties size. Its more to do with circumstances.
> 
> I get my energy from a green supplier, I've cut down all I can, but this is the state of the property I'm living in - and the council keep insisting that I'm adequately housed despite a ground shift beneath the building causing rising damp.
> 
> I should point out though, that the degus are housed well away from the damp area.
> View attachment 576965
> View attachment 576966


Yep, I hear you and I acknowledged that what I’d suggested was in no way perfect and would be complicated to figure out. I was using property size as one illustration, it wouldn’t necessarily be the only one - and maybe it’s the wrong one. I don’t work in the energy sector, I’m not working in government policy… i don’t have all the answers, I just feel that a blanket approach isn’t necessarily the right one. I appreciate no one seems to share my view tho


----------



## kimthecat

According to Jeremy Vine on Ch 5 , Her real name is Mary and not Liz.


----------



## GingerNinja

Taking a chance by posting in this thread 🤪 but surely the fairest way would be to freeze the price per unit? I don't know, but would be interested to hear why this would not be a good idea


----------



## huckybuck

GingerNinja said:


> Taking a chance by posting in this thread 🤪 but surely the fairest way would be to freeze the price per unit? I don't know, but would be interested to hear why this would not be a good idea


Totally agree.


----------



## Deguslave

GingerNinja said:


> Taking a chance by posting in this thread 🤪 but surely the fairest way would be to freeze the price per unit? I don't know, but would be interested to hear why this would not be a good idea


I think the issue with freezing the unit price is that at some point, the true unit price would have to be paid. There is talk of loaning the energy firms the money to cover the price difference, similar to the banking crisis loans, but it would take higher bills for almost 20 years to recoup the losses.


----------



## huckybuck

Deguslave said:


> I think the issue with freezing the unit price is that at some point, the true unit price would have to be paid. There is talk of loaning the energy firms the money to cover the price difference, similar to the banking crisis loans, but it would take higher bills for almost 20 years to recoup the losses.


Maybe the big producers (shell/bp etc who have made billions in profits could step in to make up some of the difference). I appreciate they need to pay shareholders and pension schemes etc as well as invest and I am not against that at all but there must still be a lot of leeway left when they are talking billions.


----------



## huckybuck

Was thinking about it earlier when I heard that Norway was charging us loads more for gas now - at least Liz was pretty respected as foreign secretary and hopefully would be able to negotiate talks with the supplying countries.


----------



## Siskin

cutting the standing charge would help to, it’s gone up an awful lot recently. most of our bill seems to be standing charge


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> I am not having a dig at you - you suggested those that can afford it pay more.
> 
> Those that can afford it - I assumed (perhaps wrongly) you meant the wealthy. The wealthy was in quotation marks because who you think of as wealthy and who I do probably differs quite a lot.


I think you maybe have made quite a few assumptions about me and my circumstances in that statement. Though I can’t quite figure out if you think I have a totally incorrect view on what makes someone wealthy.


huckybuck said:


> So your progressive idea would mean - me (because I can afford it) being charged more for my energy so that I have to reduce my energy consumption, while someone else doesn’t have to cut their usage because they are on a lower tariff/live in a smaller property.
> 
> So those that can afford it will end up freezing because they won’t be able to afford it.


Maybe I didn’t explain it very well it is quite late, and I’m not even sure if it’s worth trying to explain it… as clearly in a minority. But anyway…

imagine there are 4 different families.

2 of those families are living in average sized 3 bed houses, one in the north of england and one in the south. Somehow through some incredibly clever calculations it’s been determined that the family in the north should averagely use 80 units of energy and the family in the south 75.

2 of those families are living in average sized 5 bed houses, one in the north and one in the south. Those same clever calculations have figured out that on average the house in the north uses 100 units, the house in the south 90.

All 4 families receive support in terms of frozen energy bills on what is average consumption based on those clever calculations that figured out what the average consumption should be. So they all get to pay 50p per unit of energy up to and maybe just over the average, so for example that family 5 bed house in the north gets the reduced rate on say 110 units of energy, the family in the 3 bed in the south gets it on 80 units.

If the calculations work, and the right figures are considered hopefully most people would then only ever pay this reduced rate. But if someone is using considerably more energy they would be charged more… and assuming this isn’t because of factors outside their control they then can keep using considerably more and pay more, or look at reducing energy use.

imagine that the people living in that 3 bed house in the north are obsessed with Christmas lights and keep them on all year round. Maybe they use 110 units all the time. If they are only getting support on the first 85 units, and the charge for units used above 85 units is too much, maybe they switch them off between March and September. Under a blanket scheme where they get support on every single unit of energy they use there is less incentive for them to switch the lights off, under a progressive scheme maybe there is.

I know my example is way too simplified and generic and it doesn’t consider all the factors that go into determining the size of energy bills… but it’s an approach around how to encourage reducing energy use.


----------



## Jobeth

They need to do something about the cost of fuel for businesses before they start to close. If they don’t then more people will be unemployed. There was a news report about the impact on care homes and the increase is shocking. https://www.carehome.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1675920/care-england-energy-costs-social-care


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> What's so funny about the rain coming down today. You, are what of those remoaner who cannot get their head round about Brexit. We voted OUT. Like I said before you are really a nasty person. Oh by the way, I am glad it rain today. We need it. But, it did stop when Liz arrived. Good for her 😋



I don't think I mentioned Brexit did I, so why bring it up again and if I'm nasty then what does that make you!


----------



## rona

rottieboys said:


> We voted OUT. Like I said before you are really a nasty person


One of the least nasty people on here. Is rarely if ever personal.



rottieboys said:


> There are people on this forums who also cannot say nice thing about Any of the conservative Government. Like you, I call them nasty . Poor Liz, Thank god we think with different views without being bitchy or spiteful.


So, she can't have an opinion that opposes yours?
That's not healthy


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think I mentioned Brexit did I, so why bring it up again and if I'm nasty then what does that make you!


I would n't make a joke about the rain coming down on Liz. I hope Liz does sort out all the problems we have got. I know you was n't keen on Boris. But he got in with a huge minority. Let's see what help she can do for everyone, without mocking everything she does. Kindness cost nothing.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> I would n't make a joke about the rain coming down on Liz. I hope Liz does sort out all the problems we have got. I know you was n't keen on Boris. But he got in with a huge minority.* Let's see what help she can do for everyone, *without mocking everything she does. Kindness cost nothing.



Lets just hope she can.

I just don't like the tories our MP hasn't given me any reason to change my mind.


----------



## StormyThai

Can we stop the pointless bickering please... everyone is entitled to have their opinion and I will defend anyone's right to express said opinion... but this bickering over several pages because someone mentioned that it was raining is petty.
There is far more to worry about than this!


----------



## rottieboys

StormyThai said:


> Can we stop the pointless bickering please... everyone is entitled to have their opinion and I will defend anyone's right to express said opinion... but this bickering over several pages because someone mentioned that it was raining is petty.
> There is far more to worry about than this!


I agree with you. We don't want any dark clouds over any of our MPs 😋


----------



## Arny

Psygon said:


> I think you maybe have made quite a few assumptions about me and my circumstances in that statement. Though I can’t quite figure out if you think I have a totally incorrect view on what makes someone wealthy.
> 
> Maybe I didn’t explain it very well it is quite late, and I’m not even sure if it’s worth trying to explain it… as clearly in a minority. But anyway…
> 
> imagine there are 4 different families.
> 
> 2 of those families are living in average sized 3 bed houses, one in the north of england and one in the south. Somehow through some incredibly clever calculations it’s been determined that the family in the north should averagely use 80 units of energy and the family in the south 75.
> 
> 2 of those families are living in average sized 5 bed houses, one in the north and one in the south. Those same clever calculations have figured out that on average the house in the north uses 100 units, the house in the south 90.
> 
> All 4 families receive support in terms of frozen energy bills on what is average consumption based on those clever calculations that figured out what the average consumption should be. So they all get to pay 50p per unit of energy up to and maybe just over the average, so for example that family 5 bed house in the north gets the reduced rate on say 110 units of energy, the family in the 3 bed in the south gets it on 80 units.
> 
> If the calculations work, and the right figures are considered hopefully most people would then only ever pay this reduced rate. But if someone is using considerably more energy they would be charged more… and assuming this isn’t because of factors outside their control they then can keep using considerably more and pay more, or look at reducing energy use.
> 
> imagine that the people living in that 3 bed house in the north are obsessed with Christmas lights and keep them on all year round. Maybe they use 110 units all the time. If they are only getting support on the first 85 units, and the charge for units used above 85 units is too much, maybe they switch them off between March and September. Under a blanket scheme where they get support on every single unit of energy they use there is less incentive for them to switch the lights off, under a progressive scheme maybe there is.
> 
> I know my example is way too simplified and generic and it doesn’t consider all the factors that go into determining the size of energy bills… but it’s an approach around how to encourage reducing energy use.


I like the idea I just think in reality it would be impossible to implement and to do so without missing anyone that might still need it out.
Alternatively you could give rewards to those using less than the average.

I heard that, on average per person, we use double the amount of water than mainland Europe. It is likely a similar story with our energy use.


----------



## Jesthar

rottieboys said:


> I agree with you. We don't want any dark clouds over any of our MPs 😋


Oh, I dunno. There are a few who might actually get off their backsides and do something beneficial for the country rather than Big Business if motivated by a few bolts of lightning


----------



## rottieboys

You might be right on that one.


----------



## Deguslave

My MP is Labour, and you never see or hear him, yet every time he is re-elected because he's Labour.

This is the mentality that needs to change IMHO, our politicians should be elected on more than just party membership.


----------



## huckybuck

Psygon said:


> I think you maybe have made quite a few assumptions about me and my circumstances in that statement. Though I can’t quite figure out if you think I have a totally incorrect view on what makes someone wealthy.
> 
> Maybe I didn’t explain it very well it is quite late, and I’m not even sure if it’s worth trying to explain it… as clearly in a minority. But anyway…
> 
> imagine there are 4 different families.
> 
> 2 of those families are living in average sized 3 bed houses, one in the north of england and one in the south. Somehow through some incredibly clever calculations it’s been determined that the family in the north should averagely use 80 units of energy and the family in the south 75.
> 
> 2 of those families are living in average sized 5 bed houses, one in the north and one in the south. Those same clever calculations have figured out that on average the house in the north uses 100 units, the house in the south 90.
> 
> All 4 families receive support in terms of frozen energy bills on what is average consumption based on those clever calculations that figured out what the average consumption should be. So they all get to pay 50p per unit of energy up to and maybe just over the average, so for example that family 5 bed house in the north gets the reduced rate on say 110 units of energy, the family in the 3 bed in the south gets it on 80 units.
> 
> If the calculations work, and the right figures are considered hopefully most people would then only ever pay this reduced rate. But if someone is using considerably more energy they would be charged more… and assuming this isn’t because of factors outside their control they then can keep using considerably more and pay more, or look at reducing energy use.
> 
> imagine that the people living in that 3 bed house in the north are obsessed with Christmas lights and keep them on all year round. Maybe they use 110 units all the time. If they are only getting support on the first 85 units, and the charge for units used above 85 units is too much, maybe they switch them off between March and September. Under a blanket scheme where they get support on every single unit of energy they use there is less incentive for them to switch the lights off, under a progressive scheme maybe there is.
> 
> I know my example is way too simplified and generic and it doesn’t consider all the factors that go into determining the size of energy bills… but it’s an approach around how to encourage reducing energy use.


I see what you are saying now and I like the idea as it seems a lot fairer than you first suggested. 

So basically there is an average usage amount per house size/ no of occupants, location etc and EVERYONE pays more (whether they are deemed able to afford it or not) if they go over their reasonable usage. 

The only thing is people will always have circumstances that they view as necessary for more energy usage. Where do you draw the line? We have Huck (cat) with asthma so we have air purifiers running for him. If he was a child I am sure that would be viewed as an exceptional circumstance. We don’t have kids although the cats are my children. Yet somehow I don’t think air purifiers for cats would be deemed an exception. 

I just can’t see it being a fair, realistic or viable solution.


----------



## Psygon

Arny said:


> I like the idea I just think in reality it would be impossible to implement and to do so without missing anyone that might still need it out.
> Alternatively you could give rewards to those using less than the average.
> 
> I heard that, on average per person, we use double the amount of water than mainland Europe. It is likely a similar story with our energy use.


Oh yeah, I think I've said a few times it's complex and maybe it would be impossible (I also get that given current situation we do just need something.. maybe if it started to be looked at when it became clear a package of support was needed it could have been more progressive). 

I like the idea of some form of reward system, I reckon that would achieve the same outcome.


----------



## Happy Paws2




----------



## Happy Paws2

Deguslave said:


> My MP is Labour, and you never see or hear him, yet every time he is re-elected because he's Labour.
> 
> This is the mentality that needs to change IMHO, our politicians should be elected on more than just party membership.


I lived in Sutton Coldfield all my life it's ways been a tory stronghold, my MP is Andrew Mitchell, I've never ever seen him or at election time had him or any of his supporters knock my door. As far as seeing his picture in the local paper at some sort function or another I have know idea what he does for us.


----------



## Happy Paws2

PM question time is about I'll listen her with interest


----------



## Psygon

Happy Paws2 said:


> I lived in Sutton Coldfield all my life it's ways been a tory stronghold, my MP is Andrew Mitchell, I've never ever seen him or at election time had him or any of his supporters knock my door. As far as seeing his picture in the local paper at some sort function or another I have know idea what he does for us.


 I suspect wherever you go in the country, and which ever party your MP is from that will be the case. I don't think not having a clue what your MP does for you is limited to just Conservatives, as unless whatever they're doing directly impacts you it can be pretty intangible.

My area is a Tory stronghold too. Our MP has a nickname, Guy Photo-Opperman, as he only ever seems to be involved in some photo or other.

I know that he has always had pretty strong support here, and people speak quite favourably off him. However, some of that changed with the situation in government and the fact he pretty much supported Boris to the end. Some of the language and things said about him were less than favourable. I'm interested to see if there is now a shift back to strong support with the change in PM. My gut feeling is that it will swing back to the strong support, unless Liz does something daft...

I suspect that, with the support package, the Tory government will get strong support in general and the polls that have been showing Labour out in front will shift a bit.


----------



## rona

Watch your backs............this government will be far far worse than Boris
Be careful what you wish for..............................


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well not long to wait to find out what help she is going to give us, so fingers crossed.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> Well not long to wait to find out what help she is going to give us, so fingers crossed.


I can tell you now. It won't suit everyone.


----------



## huckybuck

Yep - there will always be moaners.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Gosh, the new Home Sec is an “interesting” woman, isn’t she? Blimey.

As a side issue, it’s voting day where I live today, for West Sussex County councillor for our area, as someone died. I contemplated not voting, as there’s really no point here, it’s always Tory no matter who stands, but remembered that women gave their lives so I could vote. So I did.


----------



## huckybuck

I liked that Liz gave positions to all the candidates standing against her (bar Rishi mind)

Love that there are lots of women in her cabinet and it’s diversity.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Sex and colour diversity, yes, I’ll give Liz that. Privilege diversity not so much - but then I guess most Comprehensive educated children don’t go on to be members of the Conservative Party, let alone a Conservative MP, so that’s to be expected.

Do you think it’s a case of keep your friends close and your enemies closer? Probably wise, given what has occurred to get Liz into the position she is now in.

I am currently reading the voting records of some of our new ministers, as I do like to know what’s going on. Honestly, I know that MPs vote mainly with the whip but when a woman of colour, from an immigrant family, votes the way she does, it makes me wonder.


----------



## Psygon

Mrs Funkin said:


> Sex and colour diversity, yes, I’ll give Liz that. Privilege diversity not so much - but then I guess most Comprehensive educated children don’t go on to be members of the Conservative Party, let alone a Conservative MP, so that’s to be expected.
> 
> Do you think it’s a case of keep your friends close and your enemies closer? Probably wise, given what has occurred to get Liz into the position she is now in.
> 
> I am currently reading the voting records of some of our new ministers, as I do like to know what’s going on. Honestly, I know that MPs vote mainly with the whip but when a woman of colour, from an immigrant family, votes the way she does, it makes me wonder.







__





Loading…






commonslibrary.parliament.uk





I think this is interesting to see in terms of the demographics of members of Parliament. Admittedly it only goes to 2019.


----------



## huckybuck

Not sure about keeping enemies close as I don’t think she has anyone who supported Rishi lol!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I think you’re right @huckybuck - there are a few ministers where they changed allegiance as the leadership voting went on (as you’d expect) but I can’t see anyone who categorically said they supported him (there are a couple who have never publicly declared who they supported).

I think it’s a long road back for us from the state we are in now. Let’s hope things start to improve in a couple of years!


----------



## JANICE199

*Nothing a tory says will win my vote. Same old rubbish will be told.*


----------



## rona

Good little people......I've saved you £1000 and you still get your handout £400 

Are we dim or something?

The £400 was supposed to help because the bills increased to £1900. We still have to find another £600 on top of that!!

How if you already have nothing?


----------



## Jobeth

I’m selfishly relieved that they are doing something to support schools. I was more worried about losing my job than the price increase. They are helping some other sectors as well.


----------



## ForestWomble

Jobeth said:


> I’m selfishly relieved that they are doing something to support schools. I was more worried about losing my job than the price increase. They are helping some other sectors as well.


I don't think that's selfish. 
Hopefully you can relax a bit now.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Notwithstanding the genuine struggles coming for a lot of people and businesses, it will be interesting to see the savings that can be made.

I had to beg the Site Team of a local school to switch off the underfloor heating in the kitchen I use on a Saturday morning as well as the rest of the sport pavilion it was in. It was still on 24/7 during the Summer Term and the building was like a hothouse and unused all weekend apart from by us for 3 hours. There was no need for the heating to be on at all during that whole term.

Hospital public areas are always too hot and doors are often open.

Shops too often have heating or air conditioning belting out, with doors locked open. In winter, when shoppers are dressed for the cold they are too hot and in summer when dressed for heat can be freezing cold!

Such an unnecessary waste of energy and money.


----------



## Deguslave

I had to go to A&E a few weeks ago, during the tail end of the heatwave and yes, the heating was on. Such a waste of public money.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

My goodness, the results are in for yesterday's county council elections. There was a shockingly poor turnout (only 19%) and no doubt people will try to say it is due to yesterday's events. Anyway, one of the Independent candidates was elected (43%) and the Conservative candidate got 40% of the vote. I'm so shocked! To be fair, we only got a leaflet from these two candidates, the Labour and the other Independent didn't have a leaflet campaign, so I am not surprised it was one of them that did that was elected. Husband was trying to get me to tell him who I voted for. It made me laugh.


----------



## SbanR

Mrs Funkin said:


> My goodness, the results are in for yesterday's county council elections. There was a shockingly poor turnout (only 19%) and no doubt people will try to say it is due to yesterday's events. Anyway, one of the Independent candidates was elected (43%) and the Conservative candidate got 40% of the vote. I'm so shocked! To be fair, we only got a leaflet from these two candidates, the Labour and the other Independent didn't have a leaflet campaign, so I am not surprised it was one of them that did that was elected. Husband was trying to get me to tell him who I voted for. It made me laugh.


Did he tell you who he voted for?


----------



## Mrs Funkin

He did indeed.


----------



## SbanR

Mrs Funkin said:


> He did indeed.


But it didn't work 😆


----------



## Pawscrossed

OrientalSlave said:


> It's other people's children who look after you. *Or do you have children of your own* that provide all the social care you need?


2 million people will be ageing without children by 2030. Like me, not necessary of ones own choice and you really can't ask or assume that sort of stuff, it's private. Or assume that children of others will be there, why should they be? 92% of unpaid care is provided by families. 

Something from a group who know a lot about this: 

_"Health and social care services are predicated upon the underlying assumption that families fill the gaps in service provision and, in the cause of older people particularly, that the people supporting them are largely their adult children. 

Adult children provide help in different ways: for example, low-level support tasks such as accompanying a parent to medical appointments, helping with cleaning and shopping, reminding their parent to take medication. Adult children also help with personal care tasks, such as changing dressings to high-level support such as mediating with health and social services, looking after their parent's finances, and even being their part-time or full time carer. 

Our health and care systems do not operate in a way that effectively supports people without family. Cuts in public spending on adult social care over recent years means that there has been a reduction in the types of services that provide lower-level support and a rise in the eligibility threshold reducing access to statutory support for many older people unless their needs are deemed critical or substantial. At the same time, many voluntary organisations have lost funding for help-at-home services and advocacy services. These services, which are particularly crucial for people without family, are under severe financial pressure and are often only funded to deliver advocacy required by law, for example under the Care Act 2014 or independent mental health advocacy.

Consequently, people ageing without children can be left without support and help at a time when they need it most."
_
_Source_


----------



## huckybuck

Just watched the speeches at Westminster Hall. Thought they were lovely - so personal considering the occasion. 

It’s such a privilege to be able to witness these ceremonies. No one does it like the Brits do they!


----------



## kimthecat

I bet Liz Truss welcomes the fact she is not in the spotlight and not underpressure from the press. She sacked Zac Goldsmith from Enviromental Welfare so his Animal welfare bill will likely be down graded.  









Zac Goldsmith loses environment job amid fears of animal welfare downgrade


Exclusive: Liz Truss strips Conservative peer of environment minister post but he is expected to keep Foreign Office role




www.theguardian.com


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I bet Liz Truss welcomes the fact she is not in the spotlight and not underpressure from the press. She sacked Zac Goldsmith from Enviromental Welfare so his Animal welfare bill will likely be down graded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zac Goldsmith loses environment job amid fears of animal welfare downgrade
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Liz Truss strips Conservative peer of environment minister post but he is expected to keep Foreign Office role
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Yep, she's going to be a ruddy disaster.
When everyone was calling for Boris's blood, I said be careful what you wish for..........................
You think he was bad, you ain't seen nothin yet


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> I bet Liz Truss welcomes the fact she is not in the spotlight and not underpressure from the press. She sacked Zac Goldsmith from Enviromental Welfare so his Animal welfare bill will likely be down graded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zac Goldsmith loses environment job amid fears of animal welfare downgrade
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Liz Truss strips Conservative peer of environment minister post but he is expected to keep Foreign Office role
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com











Liz Truss ‘to scrap proposed bans on fur and foie gras imports’


Dropping promises made last year would be huge let-down for animals and people, says Conservative Animal Welfare Foundation




www.independent.co.uk





Looks like it’s out 😢😢😢


----------



## kimthecat

Psygon said:


> Liz Truss ‘to scrap proposed bans on fur and foie gras imports’
> 
> 
> Dropping promises made last year would be huge let-down for animals and people, says Conservative Animal Welfare Foundation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it’s out 😢😢😢


Thats a great shame. 😢


----------



## Happy Paws2

Psygon said:


> Liz Truss ‘to scrap proposed bans on fur and foie gras imports’
> 
> 
> Dropping promises made last year would be huge let-down for animals and people, says Conservative Animal Welfare Foundation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it’s out 😢😢😢


I just knew I wasn't going to trust her.


----------



## rona

The shite has hit the fan..................Did you see that joke Coffey this morning.

What a ruddy disaster this all is

Update..........Fracking is now legal


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> I just knew I wasn't going to trust her.


Well, some of us wanted Boris to go. At least he was being influenced by his animal right activist wife.


----------



## Psygon

Is anyone else following the mini-budget... And how the markets are reacting? 😬


----------



## rona

That was fun to watch wasn't it? 

By the time this lot are finished, this country will be bankrupt. Think I'm going to draw a lot of my money out of the bank


----------



## huckybuck

I thought it was quite radical and should definitely encourage new business and enterprise. 

It seems to help everyone in one way or another. 

Hopefully a more thriving economy will mean the loans will be able to be paid back a lot quicker! 

I wouldn’t take my money out of the bank just yet - interest rates are on the rise. Although you could invest it in EIS which might benefit a new small business.


----------



## Happy Paws2

huckybuck said:


> It seems to help everyone in one way or another.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> *It won't help pensioners or people who are low paid and don't pay tax.[*/QUOTE]


----------



## mrs phas

huckybuck said:


> seems to help everyone in one way or another.


Won't help people in my position
On a disability benefit, 
Oh and I'm on the 'wrong' legacy benefit to get the extra money too the disabled, pensioners (I didn't get the recent £300 into my bank for instance) 
I still have to pay all the increases though


----------



## huckybuck

It will help some pensioners - money will go into pension funds. 

I do think we all need to take some personal responsibility in a period of economic crisis. You can’t just ask a government to cover all your shortfalls. 

We are all subject to the increases.


----------



## Psygon

So my personal take...

Definitely radical, not totally unexpected based on everything announced in the run up - slashing the top rate of tax definitely unexpected. It does look good for business, but I wonder if in terms of the worldwide economic situation it is as good as made out. 

Relies entirely on the idea this will generate growth, which seems a risky gamble (and given how the markets are reacting seen as a risky gamble to them too). 

In terms of beneficiaries... Quite surprised by just how much this looks to benefit the better off. I get the concept they are going for (even if I don't agree with it), but if the gamble fails then anyone who relies on public services will be hugely worse off because services will be cut if growth doesn't happen. While the more highly paid will remain better off. And any idea that you can transform public services at the pace that's needed with the employee cuts already being looked at seems unlikely...

I'm interested to know what the government are forecasting in terms of the speed of growth because it seems to me you would need to see growth increasing pretty rapidly to give confidence this is going to work. 

I'm interested to see what happens to the housing market too...

Personally I remain to be convinced...


----------



## Pawscrossed

huckybuck said:


> I thought it was quite radical and should definitely encourage new business and enterprise.
> 
> It seems to help everyone in one way or another.
> 
> Hopefully a more thriving economy will mean the loans will be able to be paid back a lot quicker!
> 
> I wouldn’t take my money out of the bank just yet - interest rates are on the rise. Although you could invest it in EIS which might benefit a new small business.


How? New business and enterprise will be stung by energy bills in six months. All they've done is scrapped the stuff they were planing to sting and NI won't be enough to balance the books for anyone facing a £34k energy bill.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Second and third home owners will benefit hugely from the stamp duty. I don't know first time buyer who can get a first time mortgage for £425,000... oh yes, a banker.

It's a budget delivered by a corrupt party that pays off the rich and is ruthless to the poor. Benefit sanctions to job hunters is utterly miserable. That shows the huge wealth gap that this awful party have created since they came to power where there's more people reliant on food banks than ever before.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Psygon said:


> Is anyone else following the mini-budget... And how the markets are reacting? 😬


the pound has fallen like a lemming off a cliff.


----------



## huckybuck

I think the markets reaction is nervousness as it was quite radical but will be interesting to see what they do over the next couple of weeks. 

The housing market - I am sceptical about too. It’s very good news for first time buyers and those at the lower end of the market but you still need upwards movement overall and given no change at the higher end (much as we’d love to move up we just wouldn’t because the sting in stamp duty would be too much) there will be stagnancy. 

The thing I didn’t agree with was the turn around on the National insurance hike - I just don’t think it will make enough of a difference to anyone for it to be a worthwhile cut so she could have kept that one.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> I think the markets reaction is nervousness as it was quite radical but will be interesting to see what they do over the next couple of weeks.
> 
> The housing market - I am sceptical about too. It’s very good news for first time buyers and those at the lower end of the market but you still need upwards movement overall and given no change at the higher end (much as we’d love to move up we just wouldn’t because the sting in stamp duty would be too much) there will be stagnancy.
> 
> The thing I didn’t agree with was the turn around on the National insurance hike - I just don’t think it will make enough of a difference to anyone for it to be a worthwhile cut so she could have kept that one.


On the housing market, just briefly read an article that says it won't necessarily be good for first time buyers as it will push prices upwards anyway. I think on stamp duty a lot of people were saying a change was welcome, but it needed to be done in addition to other things otherwise it could have a negative impact and raise prices. The thing consistently called out was a need to review council tax alongside any changes.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Cost of government borrowing went up again yesterday, so the Chancellor announces a big load of tax cuts with no idea where the money is coming from, whilst working against the rate rises which are designed to take money out of the economy. Of course the markets will react, they're wise to.


----------



## Jobeth

huckybuck said:


> I think the markets reaction is nervousness as it was quite radical but will be interesting to see what they do over the next couple of weeks.
> 
> The housing market - I am sceptical about too. It’s very good news for first time buyers and those at the lower end of the market but you still need upwards movement overall and given no change at the higher end (much as we’d love to move up we just wouldn’t because the sting in stamp duty would be too much) there will be stagnancy.
> 
> The thing I didn’t agree with was the turn around on the National insurance hike - I just don’t think it will make enough of a difference to anyone for it to be a worthwhile cut so she could have kept that one.


I used the BBC calculator and I will save £820 on my NI from next month. I also think they should have left it as it benefits everyone.


----------



## Pawscrossed

The reversal of the NI rise benefits rich by £1,800 and a pathetic £7.66 a year for low income. 

All a bit hopeless when set against £1,300 average rise in fuel bills. 

All this impacts on charities as people have less money to spend and there's no help for them with their overheads like the fuel bills. The government start to penalise part time workers who have benefit clams next week so they have to find extra 3 hours work because 12 isn't enough to support the workforce (ignoring that most of the workforce have gone back to Europe after Brexit and that's a big reason why we have no essential staff) so there's less volunteers, for example, at a food bank which are keeping folk alive when the government fails to understand that every day its in power, it's pushing people to make the choice between food or power and lack of either causes poor mental health and in some cases, death. 

As if their hopeless efforts to politicise Covid and kill off the most vulnerable wasn't enough and to add more insult that awful bully Coffey telling nurses to work harder simply proves that the way to get on in this life is to be bullish, be a Tory and have no moral compass. Truss is carrying on Johnson's _out for myself_ culture and it really is awful,


----------



## Pawscrossed

delete duplicate post


----------



## Psygon

Pawscrossed said:


> The reversal of the NI rise benefits rich by £1,800 and a pathetic £7.66 a year for low income.


Edited post: BBC article I've quotes was using different figures . The £7.66 figure is correct for someone earning £10000 a year - which is roughly where NI payments kick in.

----

BBC quotes:
Someone earning £20k a year would be £93 better off (or about £7.70 a month)
Someone earning £100k a year would be £1,093 better off (or about £91 a month)

In the figures you've used I'm assuming the £1800 is based on someone on a much higher income maybe closer to £200k, but the £7.66 looks to be the monthly benefit rather than annual.

And like I said, not at all disputing that the more wealthy individuals will see a bigger benefit here


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> I thought it was quite radical and should definitely encourage new business and enterprise.
> 
> It seems to help everyone in one way or another.
> 
> Hopefully a more thriving economy will mean the loans will be able to be paid back a lot quicker!
> 
> I wouldn’t take my money out of the bank just yet - interest rates are on the rise. Although you could invest it in EIS which might benefit a new small business.


You are seeing it through the lens of someone who is very comfortably off. The hardest up people don't pay tax so tax cuts will merely saddle us and our children with more debt. 

It's the most red-blooded version seen so far in the UK of trickle-down economics. Those have been tried by Conservative governments since 1979, and they've not worked. The poor have got poorer and the rich richer, and the NHS is being privatised by stealth to make a buck for the rich buddies of the Conservatives.


----------



## Deguslave

I'm disabled, can't work because of my disabilities, live on legacy benefits and pip, I don't pay tax, I don't pay national insurance. I'll never be in a position to buy a property.

Can someone please explain just how I'll be better off?


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> I'm disabled, can't work because of my disabilities, live on legacy benefits and pip, I don't pay tax, I don't pay national insurance. I'll never be in a position to buy a property.
> 
> Can someone please explain just how I'll be better off?


Anyone who tries to say you'll be better off isn't being truthful. 

The theory is that trickle-down economics will enable more investment in services that you may need to access, and that's how you become better off because you get more support. But as @OrientalSlave has said above historically this doesn't happen.

Honestly, I can't see how this won't lead to less investment in public services.

It also massively ignores the fact that people need help now, not sometime in the future.


----------



## huckybuck

I never said it would make everyone better off. I said it will help everyone with the cost of living. Big difference. 

We are all being helped in one way or another. Whether it’s through the energy price caps or one off payments or tax cuts.

I think people have lost sight of taking any personal responsibility for the economic global situation and just expect the government to cover all the shortfalls (and make them better off).


----------



## QOTN

Surely the issue is the inequitable distribution of the help, the idea that poor people should be grateful for the crumbs that fall. As Oriental Slave has said, trickle down has never worked. I suppose it has worked well enough in the past to help the Tories win a majority. It remains to be seen if this will be the case in future.


----------



## Happy Paws2

we are going to be about £9 better off next year.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> I think people have lost sight of taking any personal responsibility for the economic global situation and just expect the government to cover all the shortfalls (and make them better off).


My personal confusion over all of this is actually why am I being helped, why is the government covering my shortfalls when there are millions of people who need more support than me?

I feel genuinely dismayed by this. I might have higher bills at the moment, but the decisions I have to make are not can I afford to eat or heat this month.


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> we are going to be about £9 better off next year.


Don't spend it all at once.


----------



## OrientalSlave

huckybuck said:


> I never said it would make everyone better off. I said it will help everyone with the cost of living. Big difference.
> 
> We are all being helped in one way or another. Whether it’s through the energy price caps or one off payments or tax cuts.
> 
> I think people have lost sight of taking any personal responsibility for the economic global situation and just expect the government to cover all the shortfalls (and make them better off).


No we are not. People not paying income tax are NOT being helped at all, and the help for the low-paid is miniscule. And those people are not responsible for the global economic situation - they don't have enough economic power. The better off someone is, the more responsible they are.


----------



## OrientalSlave

QOTN said:


> Surely the issue is the inequitable distribution of the help, the idea that poor people should be grateful for the crumbs that fall. As Oriental Slave has said, trickle down has never worked. I suppose it has worked well enough in the past to help the Tories win a majority. It remains to be seen if this will be the case in future.


Helping the Conservatives, and the Republicans, win / stay in power is all it's done.


----------



## Boxer123

Psygon said:


> My personal confusion over all of this is actually why am I being helped, why is the government covering my shortfalls when there are millions of people who need more support than me?
> 
> I feel genuinely dismayed by this. I might have higher bills at the moment, but the decisions I have to make are not can I afford to eat or heat this month.


Exactly I do agree we can’t expect the government to magically fix this. We have war in Europe and have just come out of a pandemic. I have looked at my circumstances but also am thinking I can take on a second job. How privileged I am this is an option.

I just wish we would look after the most vulnerable in society not the richest. For people who are disabled on benefits they can’t tighten their belts any more. Similar with those on state pensions. 12 years of Conservative government I have fatigue from getting cross at how we keep the rich rich.

Stamp duty holiday, first time buyers don’t even have to pay it up to £250000 all it will do is push prices up so the young can’t get on the ladder. If you look at the difference between wages and house prices compared to 30 years ago it’s enormous. No amount of work harder mentality can help people it is simply out of reach.


----------



## Psygon

Boxer123 said:


> No amount of work harder mentality can help people it is simply out of reach.


I'm not saying I've seen it on here, but I have definitely seen the implication elsewhere that people who are low paid could just work harder and earn more. Whether that's more hours, different jobs or whatever.

I'm not sure people realise just how unrealistic this is. Whether they work in an industry that historically just pays low wages, or their in an industry on a zero hours contract, or they have caring or childcare responsibilities - or loads of other scenarios. It's never just as simple as work harder and earn more. I think it's really unfair to suggest people are struggling because they don't work hard.

Again I don't want anyone to think I'm saying someone here has said this I'm just venting my frustration with the idea that people live and work in such simple situations that it's possible.


----------



## Boxer123

Psygon said:


> I'm not saying I've seen it on here, but I have definitely seen the implication elsewhere that people who are low paid could just work harder and earn more. Whether that's more hours, different jobs or whatever.
> 
> I'm not sure people realise just how unrealistic this is. Whether they work in an industry that historically just pays low wages, or their in an industry on a zero hours contract, or they have caring or childcare responsibilities - or loads of other scenarios. It's never just as simple as work harder and earn more. I think it's really unfair to suggest people are struggling because they don't work hard.
> 
> Again I don't want anyone to think I'm saying someone here has said this I'm just venting my frustration with the idea that people live and work in such simple situations that it's possible.


Yes I agree sorry it wasn’t from on here. Over the last year I have seen advice given advice (Kirsty A) to cancel Netflix to buy a house. It’s so ridiculous. Lots of similar stuff coming out when in reality.

inhttps://amp.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/23/house-price-growth-outstrips-wages-england-wales

So people are paying £300-£400 more a month in rent. Lots of people in low paid jobs do work loads of hours. Also we need these people and they should be paid more.


----------



## Psygon

Boxer123 said:


> Yes I agree sorry it wasn’t from on here. Over the last year I have seen advice given advice (Kirsty A) to cancel Netflix to buy a house. It’s so ridiculous. Lots of similar stuff coming out when in reality.
> 
> inhttps://amp.theguardian.com/money/2022/mar/23/house-price-growth-outstrips-wages-england-wales
> 
> So people are paying £300-£400 more a month in rent. Lots of people in low paid jobs do work loads of hours. Also we need these people and they should be paid more.


I was just saying this to my husband too, a lot of people who are low paid work in industries everyone hugely relies on. The country would grind to a halt if they stopped.

Absolutely agree too about ridiculous advice around cancelling Netflix subs and the like. It's just so detached from the reality of what it's like when you're going month to month not knowing how many hours your going to get to work, and how much income you'll actually make to pay the bills that are mounting up 🙁


----------



## OrientalSlave

Psygon said:


> I was just saying this to my husband too, a lot of people who are low paid work in industries everyone hugely relies on. The country would grind to a halt if they stopped.
> 
> Absolutely agree too about ridiculous advice around cancelling Netflix subs and the like. It's just so detached from the reality of what it's like when you're going month to month not knowing how many hours your going to get to work, and how much income you'll actually make to pay the bills that are mounting up 🙁


Additionally, for anyone on Universal Credit or similar, what looks like a big increase in income is a small one once the reduction in benefits is applied.


----------



## Deguslave

OrientalSlave said:


> Additionally, for anyone on Universal Credit or similar, what looks like a big increase in income is a small one once the reduction in benefits is applied.


And in some cases stops the benefits altogether. One penny over the threshold can mean losing out on benefits which puts a considerable strain on already stretched finances.


----------



## huckybuck

Psygon said:


> My personal confusion over all of this is actually why am I being helped, why is the government covering my shortfalls when there are millions of people who need more support than me?
> 
> I feel genuinely dismayed by this. I might have higher bills at the moment, but the decisions I have to make are not can I afford to eat or heat this month.


If the energy price cap wasn’t available for me I would have to make decisions on heating/eating/selling something to get the cash. We don’t have enough income now to compensate for the hikes. Neither of us can take a pension yet. So I am grateful I am being helped.


----------



## Jonescat

The scrapping of the NHS levy and reversal of the NI increase doesn't bode well for the NHS at all. There seems to be a magic money tree for tax cuts but not for people who find themselves in need of the NHS - and that could be anybody at any time. Last time (4 years) I was a supporter in an emergency ward it was scruffy but functional, sadly just been there again and every process the person I was with went through was broken. There weren't enough staff, or beds, and there looked to be a shortage of essential items too. 

I expect that because I have used an Oxford comma that I am not the sort of person that can understand the bigger picture.


----------



## QOTN

When people with reasonable incomes start to struggle, it just underlines how impossible it is for those who were finding it difficult to manage before this crisis. As @Psygon has said, these people are the ones who make life easier for the rest of us by filling all the absolutely essential roles.


----------



## mrs phas

huckybuck said:


> I do think we all need to take some personal responsibility in a period of economic crisis. You can’t just ask a government to cover all your shortfalls.


Oh I totally agree with you

Totally personally though
I'm one who falls through the cracks

My heating will go up 
I'll be helping myself by not turning it on

My electricity will go up 
I'll be helping myself, because with no heating, I'll be going to bed early, just to keep warm, so saving by no electric lights or TV in evening (I don't have one in bedroom)
No way can I come off a prepayment meter, it might be more expensive, but at least I can budget on a daily basis

My food bill will go up 
I'll be helping myself with buying less all around, but that's ok, I can do with losing a couple of stone 

The dog food has gone up 
Well, tbh, I've switched them back to raw, more economical, 
Even though the abbatoir I used shut during covid, 
just so the freezer works economically, as I won't be able to fill it with food for me 
no way will they suffer and falcor will get under the covers with me, he also has plenty of winter jumpers 
so I'M helping myself, by helping them

WiFi has gone up 
I'll be helping myself as using less electric, means less time on WiFi anyway, and, if I'm going elsewhere to use their WiFi, I can get warm too 

Petrol coming down, but still expensive 
I already help myself by only using the car for shopping and Dr/hospital visits as it is (it's a motobility car so everything else is covered)
I suppose I *can* waste NHS funds by demanding hospital transport, 
After all its not coming out of my pocket ( in the short term )
As for shopping, can I find an extra £5 minimum to get it delivered, with the drop in food shopping will I even spend enough to qualify for delivery? 

clothes 
ill be helping myself by losing weight, due to not eating, I'll find even more clothes in charity shops to fit me 
I'm still wearing clothes from 14+ years ago, so I'm not exactly a high maintenance fashionista
and 
I can darn when holes appear, one of the few positives of being old, we had to learn at school and grandmas 

Christmas/birthdays 
I'll be helping myself by not participating (s/s aside) 
not sure where I could squeeze the money from anyway

So, as you can see, I'm really already
helping myself and have been for many years
And
Don't expect the government and tax payers (of which, btw, I'm one, thanks to a tiny pension, paid to me because my husband had the audacity to die) to pay for my time of
'ease and luxury living on benefits'
despite what certain gov members believe that benefit scroungers do (even the chancellor in this "mini budget" had more lashes for those on UC)
But
Let's give the fat cats, multi home owners and the blinkered what they want (not need)
Whilst piling more💩 on the ill and most in need of support

How many of you survive, not live, paying ALL your bills on £130 per week?, £520 a month, £6760 ISH a year
AND
CANNOT work due to disability (I know there are a few)
THATS MY REALITY, AND THE REALITY OF MANY OTHERS, UNDER A TORY GOVERNMENT🤬

Steps off soapbox 

Edit cos a weird word crept into a sentence


----------



## Psygon

mrs phas said:


> Oh I totally agree with you
> 
> Totally personally though
> I'm one who falls through the cracks
> 
> My heating will go up
> I'll be helping myself by not turning it on
> 
> My electricity will go up
> I'll be helping myself, because with no heating, I'll be going to bed early, just to keep warm, so saving by no electric lights or TV in evening (I don't have one in bedroom)
> No way can I come off a prepayment meter, it might be more expensive, but at least I can budget on a daily basis
> 
> My food bill will go up
> I'll be helping myself with buying less all around, but that's ok, I can do with losing a couple of stone
> 
> The dog food has gone up
> Well, tbh, I've switched them back to raw, more economical,
> Even though the abbatoir I used shut during covid,
> just so the freezer works economically, as I won't be able to fill it with food for me
> no way will they suffer and falcor will get under the covers with me, he also has plenty of winter jumpers
> so I'M helping myself, by helping them
> 
> WiFi has gone up
> I'll be helping myself as using less electric, means less time on WiFi anyway, and, if I'm going elsewhere to use their WiFi, I can get warm too
> 
> Petrol coming down, but still expensive
> I already help myself by only using the car for shopping and Dr/hospital visits as it is (it's a motobility car so everything else is covered)
> I suppose I *can* waste NHS funds by demanding hospital transport,
> After all its not coming out of my pocket ( in the short term )
> As for shopping, can I find an extra £5 minimum to get it delivered, with the drop in food shopping will I even spend enough to qualify for delivery?
> 
> clothes
> ill be helping myself by losing weight, due to not eating, I'll find even more clothes in charity shops to fit me
> I'm still wearing clothes from 14+ years ago, so I'm not exactly a high maintenance fashionista
> and
> I can darn when holes appear, one of the few positives of being old, we had to learn at school and grandmas
> 
> Christmas/birthdays
> I'll be helping myself by not participating (s/s aside)
> not sure where I could squeeze the money from anyway
> 
> So, as you can see, I'm really already
> helping myself and have been for many years
> And
> Don't expect the government and tax payers (of which, btw, I'm one, thanks to a tiny pension, paid to me because my husband had the audacity to die) to pay for my time of
> 'ease and luxury living on benefits'
> despite what certain gov members believe that benefit scroungers do (even the chancellor in this "mini budget" had more lashes for those on UC)
> But
> Let's give the fat cats, multi home owners and the blinkered what they want (not need)
> Whilst piling more💩 on the ill and most in need of support
> 
> How many of you survive, not live, paying ALL your bills on £130 per week?, £520 a month, £6760 ISH a year
> AND
> CANNOT work due to disability (I know there are a few)
> THATS MY REALITY, AND THE REALITY OF MANY OTHERS, UNDER A TORY GOVERNMENT🤬
> 
> Steps off soapbox
> 
> Edit cos a weird word crept into a sentence


🙁🙁🙁 

This is the reality for so many people 🙁


----------



## Deguslave

Reality here, I've been buying extra dry food when its been on offer. I can't leave my heating off as I not only live in a damp flat, I have kidney problems which means I cannot get my body temp above 35.7C, so when I get cold, I trip into hypothermia surprisingly quickly and have to have a bath. Leaving the heating off just means more black mould growing on the walls, and that just means more respiratory problems.

I can't turn the emergency alarm off in case I need help, nor can I turn off the extractor fan helping with the mould issues. I need to move house, but I'm not sure I can afford that either at the moment.


----------



## Jaf

I moved to Spain because the cost of living is lower, but prices are going up and I'm struggling.

I'm lucky and own my house, but it's worth less than when I bought it. Obviously the house I swapped it for would also be cheaper but it costs 20% purchase price to buy a house. Also it takes around 2 years to sell a house.

I can't sell anything I own, my jewellery is fake, my car is worth maybe 500€ but would cost 300€ in tax and transfer costs. I need my car, there's no public transport!


----------



## Psygon

What with everything else going on today in the mini budget I hadn’t dug into the investment zones in any great detail. This is well worth a read if you’ve not followed anything about it either.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1573366815568580613
the potential scale of investment zones that will have liberalised planning rules is scary.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's started to worry us, our electric is going up £30 a month, I dread what the gas is going up to, as we can't move around much to keep warm it a worry, we have brought cuddle blankets and wheat bags you put in the microwave, but they aren't going to keep us warm if the weather gets really cold, 

Going to buy lots of tinned soup they help warm us up.


----------



## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> It's started to worry us, our electric is going up £30 a month, I dread what the gas is going up to, as we can't move around much to keep warm it a worry, we have brought cuddle blankets and wheat bags you put in the microwave, but they aren't going to keep us warm if the weather gets really cold,
> 
> Going to buy lots of tinned soup they help warm us up.


Surely you've got paid most of the extra money that Sunak promised? 
That should at least cover your heating bills


----------



## Pawscrossed

Psygon said:


> I don't want to dispute the fact that people earning more will benefit more, but I'm not sure if those figures are accurate.
> 
> BBC quotes:
> Someone earning £20k a year would be £93 better off (or about £7.70 a month)
> Someone earning £100k a year would be £1,093 better off (or about £91 a month)
> 
> In the figures you've used I'm assuming the £1800 is based on someone on a much higher income maybe closer to £200k, but the £7.66 looks to be the monthly benefit rather than annual.
> 
> And like I said, not at all disputing that the more wealthy individuals will see a bigger benefit here


thanks, maths isn’t my strong point and I welcome the correction.


----------



## Pawscrossed

huckybuck said:


> I never said it would make everyone better off. I said it will help everyone with the cost of living. Big difference.
> 
> We are all being helped in one way or another. Whether it’s through the energy price caps or one off payments or tax cuts.
> 
> I think people have lost sight of taking any personal responsibility for the economic global situation and just expect the government to cover all the shortfalls (and make them better off).


I think the government have lost sight of taking any personal responsibility for the economic situation they have created and just expect people to tip into poverty and homelessness and continue to make themselves and their donors better off. They’ve lost sight of what poverty means and your words simply endorse that.

i am no worse or better off, the fuel bills (again Tory party privatisation to thank for this) means I’m long term worse off butI will manage. I own my house and have work. The mini budget isn’t for me, it’s not for anyone in a lower financial state.

Nobody at our local foodbank ended up in dire straits because they choose to be there. In your last paragraph it reads to me that you have decided people decided to live in this way. They do not. People may live simply, thats different, but nobody wants poverty and once down it’s very hard under your party’s rules to get back into mainstream society as each rule lacks compassion and understanding of the very conditions that got people into poverty.

You’ve very neatly summed up what is wrong with the Tory’s.


----------



## Psygon

Pawscrossed said:


> thanks, maths isn’t my strong point and I welcome the correction.


Actually think I owe you an apology, I was using the figures on the BBC report which wasn't actually using the figures of the very low paid. Just seen different figures and yours were right. I'll amend my post!


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> we are going to be about £9 better off next year.


Is that for the whole year, @Happy Paws2 ?


----------



## Psygon

Pawscrossed said:


> Nobody at our local foodbank ended up in dire straits because they choose to be there. In your last paragraph it reads to me that you have decided people decided to live in this way. They do not. People may live simply, thats different, but nobody wants poverty and once down it’s very hard under your party’s rules to get back into mainstream society as each rule lacks compassion and understanding of the very conditions that got people into poverty.


This is so true. I don't think many or even any conservative MPs have any idea what poverty actually is - and I think that based on the policy and legislation they come up with. I think they see people struggling and think oh but they can cut back, learn to cook, sell something to make ends meet - get off their backsides and work more. As if these are the things that have put them in poverty in the first place.

People who are in true poverty don't have assets they can sell, don't have more things they can cut back on, and work situations are complex and not one dimensional.

The change to Universal Credit in the mini budget for part time workers which will impact 120,000 people to me is a good example of this. Relatively speaking this is a tiny proportion of people, it would have been easy to do some directed research into circumstances and figure out policy that not only considers what support they might need to work more hours, but understand the barriers. Instead we got a sweeping piece of policy that in my view paints them as too lazy to work more hours and does nothing to support them properly.

Happening against the backdrop of handing 600000 people a tax cut at the very top, the only conclusion you can come to is the conservatives only care about the rich. Because let's face it... Which one of these bits of policy are going to cost us more? Is it the tiny amount of money saved not paying benefits to 120k people? Or the money not brought in by not getting tax from the very rich? 🤔


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Is that for the whole year, @Happy Paws2 ?



Yes that's OH has worked out.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I’m guessing I’ll get about £100 a year extra from NI and a bit more when the tax rate goes down - but not much as I’m overpaying into my pension so hopefully I will be okay once I’m 67.

I’m lucky in that I only work part time. We manage. I could work more hours if I needed to, funnily enough there are always shifts that aren’t covered. However, the stress of the job means more work is not a welcome prospect.

My heart aches for people working so hard on minimum wage jobs and barely keeping their heads above water. To think that there are nurses/midwives using food banks is so saddening. Our salary actually isn’t a dreadful salary per se (we are undervalued for what we do) and if I were full time I’d earn about £40k. However, that is after 17 years as a midwife, with a First Class Honours degree. I know there are people who earn a lot less - but they also don’t have the stress and responsibility.

I am very lucky, I’m well aware of that. The mini budget is definitely not about benefitting the have-nots. The divide will be greater. Yes everyone’s bills are going up - but proportionately the C1/D classes are paying over half their income in rent, before you even start on food and other bills. The “ideal” from what I can see is 23%.

I think I was trying to make a point somewhere but I’ve rambled.


----------



## Psygon

Looks like even more nature legislation maybe under threat








Government poised to scrap nature ‘Brexit bonus’ for farmers


Defra accused of ‘all-out attack’ on environment by wildlife groups




www.theguardian.com





Totally get that as a country we need more food security, but this policy has been being worked on for several years and seems wrong to just silently drop it... 

🙁


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes that's OH has worked out.


Well, don't spend it all at once!


----------



## mrs phas

Here's a darn good reason I won't be going "we're just conservatives wearing a different coloured tie" labour

BBC News - Labour republicans say national anthem doesn’t marry with party values
Labour republicans say national anthem doesn’t marry with party values

IF I bother to vote at all it will be green, not that they have a gnats of getting in
But
It means non of the big 3 get my vote
Perhaps we should all take a stand and vote for a no chance in hell party
Or
write none of the above


----------



## OrientalSlave

mrs phas said:


> Here's a darn good reason I won't be going "we're just conservatives wearing a different coloured tie" labour
> 
> BBC News - Labour republicans say national anthem doesn’t marry with party values
> Labour republicans say national anthem doesn’t marry with party values
> 
> IF I bother to vote at all it will be green, not that they have a gnats of getting in
> But
> It means non of the big 3 get my vote
> Perhaps we should all take a stand and vote for a no chance in hell party
> Or
> write none of the above


That is abdicating responsibility for who does get in. All parties have their nut-jobs, unfortunately in the case of the Conservatives they are the ones in the cabinet.


----------



## Psygon

mrs phas said:


> Here's a darn good reason I won't be going "we're just conservatives wearing a different coloured tie" labour
> 
> BBC News - Labour republicans say national anthem doesn’t marry with party values
> Labour republicans say national anthem doesn’t marry with party values
> 
> IF I bother to vote at all it will be green, not that they have a gnats of getting in
> But
> It means non of the big 3 get my vote
> Perhaps we should all take a stand and vote for a no chance in hell party
> Or
> write none of the above


I might be wrong, but I wasn't aware that any political party sings the national anthem as standard at a conference? 

Obviously it's being done at the Labour conference due to current events, but it's not something they've done before and unlikely to do again (unless perhaps their next conference follows the coronation). I can see why parts of the party have said it doesn't match their values. But it's not the whole party saying it.

I guess it's the same as how some of what's been announced in the last few days by the government doesn't match the values of every conservative member, given some of the pushback and comments they've made against some of the policies. 

Guess there will always be things in a political party that not everyone agrees with. I don't think it's right to just not vote at all based on that tho.


----------



## mrs phas

Psygon said:


> Guess there will always be things in a political party that not everyone agrees with. I don't think it's right to just not vote at all based on that tho.


Which is why I said I'll vote green
Or,
Write on of the above
No where did I say I, or anyone else, shouldn't vote
But,I did say...
IF, I vote,
which means something different than I won't vote
As for abdicating a vote to someone else @OrientalSlave
It makes zero difference what I do
Suffolk is true died in the wool conservative, with a capital Con


----------



## Psygon

mrs phas said:


> Which is why I said I'll vote green
> Or,
> Write on of the above
> No where did I say I, or anyone else, shouldn't vote
> But,I did say...
> IF, I vote,
> which means something different than I won't vote
> As for abdicating a vote to someone else @OrientalSlave
> It makes zero difference what I do
> Suffolk is true died in the wool conservative, with a capital Con


Apologies I was reading the none of the above as not voting, I appreciate it's different. I'm just not convinced it really achieves any more than staying at home. I know there are differing views on that.

Like you I live in a conservative stronghold, it's been mainly conservative or liberal since created. But I still go and cast my vote for the party I would prefer to see represent me.


----------



## StormyThai

I'm just going to leave this here.

GvW on TikTok

I wasn't able to embed it for some reason.


----------



## Deguslave

StormyThai said:


> I'm just going to leave this here.
> 
> GvW on TikTok
> 
> I wasn't able to embed it for some reason.


Wow! Just wow!


----------



## Deguslave

I think next time I write to my MP, I'm going to sign myself off as a weed!


----------



## Psygon

StormyThai said:


> I'm just going to leave this here.
> 
> GvW on TikTok
> 
> I wasn't able to embed it for some reason.


Just to say this is a parody. There are a few doing the rounds on twitter.


----------



## Boxer123

Deguslave said:


> Wow! Just wow!





StormyThai said:


> I'm just going to leave this here.
> 
> GvW on TikTok
> 
> I wasn't able to embed it for some reason.


 Please people think of those with large houses and stables.

Yours Faithfully
A weed


----------



## Psygon

This is another parody:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572909416638459905


----------



## Boxer123

Psygon said:


> This is another parody:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1572909416638459905


Ha ha I’m not on Tik Tok or Twitter it’s a big worrying I thought that was completely real.


----------



## Deguslave

Boxer123 said:


> Please people think of those with large houses and stables.
> 
> Yours Faithfully
> A weed


And can I please borrow a horse as I can't afford petrol for the mower, lol.


----------



## Pawscrossed

_One school in Lewisham, south-east London, told the charity about a child who was “pretending to eat out of an empty lunchbox” because they did not qualify for free school meals and did not want their friends to know there was no food at home._





__





Schools in England warn of crisis of ‘heartbreaking’ rise in hungry children | UK cost of living crisis | The Guardian


Headteachers and food aid charities say they are struggling to cope with growing demand from families unable to afford food




amp.theguardian.com






VOTE. 

No party will do 100% everything for everyone (go create your own party!) but vote. If the indecisive took to the polls we'd have a different country and probably still be in the EU. There are sufficient websites and online spaces to check manifestos and advice on the best tactical vote to get a Tory out. 

My assumption is the Tory party will run this country into the ground, create such an awful mess for the next party to unravel that they'll hope that in four years later, some well funded fat cats will vote them back in.


----------



## kimthecat

Deguslave said:


> I think next time I write to my MP, I'm going to sign myself off as a weed!



Makes me think of Little Weed


----------



## kimthecat

Psygon said:


> Just to say this is a parody. There are a few doing the rounds on twitter.


I really fell for that! Just goes to show how easy it is to believe false information.


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> _One school in Lewisham, south-east London, told the charity about a child who was “pretending to eat out of an empty lunchbox” because they did not qualify for free school meals and did not want their friends to know there was no food at home._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schools in England warn of crisis of ‘heartbreaking’ rise in hungry children | UK cost of living crisis | The Guardian
> 
> 
> Headteachers and food aid charities say they are struggling to cope with growing demand from families unable to afford food
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amp.theguardian.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VOTE.
> 
> No party will do 100% everything for everyone (go create your own party!) but vote. If the indecisive took to the polls we'd have a different country and probably still be in the EU. There are sufficient websites and online spaces to check manifestos and advice on the best tactical vote to get a Tory out.
> 
> My assumption is the Tory party will run this country into the ground, create such an awful mess for the next party to unravel that they'll hope that in four years later, some well funded fat cats will vote them back in.


Did n't the Labour Party do exactly that.


----------



## Psygon

Letters of no confidence in Liz have already been submitted according to Sky News. There isn't a story on it yet, but it's in their live news blog.

I know it won't necessarily mean anything, but it just looks ridiculous.


----------



## Deguslave

Ridiculous, its chaotic. We need a general election, we can't go on like this much longer.


----------



## kimthecat

The pound dropped against the Dollar but it is going back up, This happens with any changes . Shares dropped in most countries in the last few days but are going back up .


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> The pound dropped against the Dollar but it is going back up, This happens with any changes . Shares dropped in most countries in the last few days but are going back up .


And then it slid back down again when the bank of England didn't raise interest rates.


----------



## kimthecat

Psygon said:


> And then it slid back down again when the bank of England didn't raise interest rates.


I think the bank of England raised the rates last week 22nd sept to 2.25 pc . Its estimated it will be a lot higher by next year, 
It's scary how out of control everything feels .


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Did n't the Labour Party do exactly that.


do what? Starve children and devalue the pound to push up prices of food again making it even harder for schools to buy food? Whilst bumping up their mates hedge funds?

Meals in schools have been around since 1906 in some form. In 1944 they were formalised under a coalition government but in 1970s under Labour parents had to pay more. In 1980s Conservatives withdrew free milk. That’s my scant knowledge. Though I still don’t see the point of comparing one party to another when the link was to a child in a school in 2022 under _this_ government.


----------



## kimthecat

Ive got Dads Army in my head .


----------



## Deguslave

And now its been reported that some banks have stopped offering new mortgages as they think interest rates are going to go to 5% next week.

Way to crash the housing market too!


----------



## kimthecat

Rishi apparently did warn Liz . Shame they didn't vote him in. perhaps there are MPs begining to regret they ousted Boris. 









Rishi Sunak said it was fairytale economics. That was one thing he got right | Will Hutton


The markets have no faith in the mini-budget and the British people will soon feel its effects




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pawscrossed

The impact of Brexit on the Eurostar. The Eurostar could process 2200 passengers in 2019 and can now only process 15,000 and it’s unable to increase the timetables to meet demand. Note also that the Government helped out the carbon busting airlines, not the greener Eurostar. So we have higher prices, more process and less train, no stops in Kent.


----------



## kimthecat

Eddie Izzard wants to join the women's selection list to become an MP . That really isn't going to help Labour if that happens. 

"MP Rosie Duffield has allegedly threatened to leave the Labour Party if comedian Eddie Izzard is selected to stand in the next general election on an all-women shortlist.

Speaking during a Labour Women’s Declaration (LWD) discussion group at the Labour Conference on Monday (26 September), Duffield allegedly told attendees that she did not believe Izzard was a woman."


----------



## Lurcherlad

Any biological male who transitions (or reidentifies) can only ever be a transwoman imo, so wouldn’t qualify for women only selection lists.

There shouldn’t even be women only selection lists for MP’s … that is discriminatory imo.


----------



## Lurcherlad

On a totally different subject … saw this on the BBC news app:










Unbelievable 🙄

I find her pretty obnoxious anyway, but this is another level.

An apology doesn’t really cut it.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng should be sacked he's going to bankrupt this country, put more people in financial trouble unless you are rich and you'll be so much better off and where is LT she's keeping a very low profile isn't she.


----------



## Siskin

You wouldn’t have known a former neighbour was of Indian decent if you just heard him speaking, didn’t make his skin any lighter, all he had was a public school education and parents that insisted he spoke the way he did. Same with a local man whose skin is very dark. He was fostered by a family in the village and has become everyone’s go to for dry stone walling. He has a broad Gloucestershire accent.

What a silly women


----------



## Deguslave

There was a Sikh who worked at my local petrol station who had the broadest black country accent you've ever heard.

The way you speak has nothing to do with the colour of your skin and everything to do with where you grew up and how you were educated.


----------



## Psygon

Happy Paws2 said:


> Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng should be sacked he's going to bankrupt this country, put more people in financial trouble unless you are rich and you'll be so much better off and where is LT she's keeping a very low profile isn't she.


I don't even know if the rich are protected in the latest developments - unless you truly are very rich. I mean if house prices do drop by 10 to 15%, if mortgage rates do jump up to 6%, then any benefit they were getting from the changes to tax rates are going to be entirely consumed by the reduction in value of their property and increased mortgage payments. 

I mean obviously they are still in a better position than people who earn significantly less... And higher interest rates are going to mean earning more from savings and investments... But really nothing that's happened over the last few days seems to be that helpful for a considerable amount of people.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng should be sacked he's going to bankrupt this country, put more people in financial trouble unless you are rich and you'll be so much better off and where is LT she's keeping a very low profile isn't she.


You may not agree with his policies but that doesn’t mean he should be racially abused 🙄


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lurcherlad said:


> You may not agree with his policies but that doesn’t mean he should be racially abused 🙄



I've never mentioned his colour, he could be green with red and blue spots on for all I care, he should go.


----------



## Deguslave

Liz Truss seems to be the kind of person who is very happy to make bullets for other people to fire. And she will keep a very low profile while the battle is going on only to stick her head above the parapet to say 'that's not what I said' when everything has died down.


----------



## Jobeth

Psygon said:


> I don't even know if the rich are protected in the latest developments - unless you truly are very rich. I mean if house prices do drop by 10 to 15%, if mortgage rates do jump up to 6%, then any benefit they were getting from the changes to tax rates are going to be entirely consumed by the reduction in value of their property and increased mortgage payments.
> 
> I mean obviously they are still in a better position than people who earn significantly less... And higher interest rates are going to mean earning more from savings and investments... But really nothing that's happened over the last few days seems to be that helpful for a considerable amount of people.


I’m not rich but it has benefited me as I pay less NI. It’s not a gain that makes a real difference though. I also don’t have a mortgage and own my own car. The interest rate has doubled on my ISA/saving account. I don’t agree with the budget though. The support for electricity/gas is helpful for more people as going from a fixed rate to a variable my DD only went up £3 a month.


----------



## Boxer123

If the housing market crashes I can look forward to negative equity. I’ve fixed for 5 years so will hopefully ride it out but who knows.


----------



## Jobeth

Boxer123 said:


> If the housing market crashes I can look forward to negative equity. I’ve fixed for 5 years so will hopefully ride it out but who knows.


As long as you don’t plan to move then it will be fine. I bet you’re glad you got a fixed rate. I overpaid my mortgage when I could and it makes a huge difference.


----------



## Boxer123

Jobeth said:


> As long as you don’t plan to move then it will be fine. I bet you’re glad you got a fixed rate. I overpaid my mortgage when I could and it makes a huge difference.


Im not planning on moving and can’t afford to. I’m very glad I fixed. I would love to over pay and that was the plan but money is so tight at the moment. I’ve asked the boxers to kindly reduce their vets visits for ailments that disappear once we arrive.


----------



## Psygon

Jobeth said:


> As long as you don’t plan to move then it will be fine. I bet you’re glad you got a fixed rate. I overpaid my mortgage when I could and it makes a huge difference.


While this is true, and I'm definitely in the camp of feeling pleased we sorted out our mortgage earlier this year (the original deal expires in November) I do think that this could impact the government's growth plans. 

If people are meant to aspire to work better-paid jobs, you need a stable housing market so that people can afford to move to where better jobs might be. If the housing market crashes and interest rates go up then people will be unable to afford to move, and unable to move to better jobs because they can't afford new interest rates or afford to take a hit on the value they paid for their house.


----------



## Deguslave

If the housing market crashes the impact on the rental housing market will be huge. We're already seeing massive rent rises in the private sector as there are too many people applying for the same property. The social housing sector is already at breaking point.


----------



## Boxer123

Deguslave said:


> If the housing market crashes the impact on the rental housing market will be huge. We're already seeing massive rent rises in the private sector as there are too many people applying for the same property. The social housing sector is already at breaking point.


This is the thing I had the option of buying at the top of the market and mortgaging up to my eye balls or renting which was £300 more a month. If I had to move it’s hard on account of boxers. I was priced out of my area so my commute has increased. I am grateful I could buy but am so worried about money at the mo.


----------



## Siskin

My daughter rents out her one bed flat in London which she bought prior to meeting her fiancé. She recently needed To find new tenants and was inundated with viewings, over 80 applied although she only met a few. Hopefully she has found a nice young couple who will look after it and get on well with the neighbours.


----------



## Boxer123

Siskin said:


> My daughter rents out her one bed flat in London which she bought prior to meeting her fiancé. She recently needed To find new tenants and was inundated with viewings, over 80 applied although she only met a few. Hopefully she has found a nice young couple who will look after it and get on well with the neighbours.


My sister has been looking for a place to rent and the market is insane just getting a viewing is hard. Thankfully she has found somewhere now she almost had to move in with boxers


----------



## Lurcherlad

Boxer123 said:


> If the housing market crashes I can look forward to negative equity. I’ve fixed for 5 years so will hopefully ride it out but who knows.


I hope that doesn’t happen ☹

The 5 year fix should help you🤞

But, yes, when it happened a few years ago (and interest rates on mortgages hit 15%), being able to sit tight gave homeowners the chance to regain any negative equity.


----------



## Siskin

Lurcherlad said:


> I hope that doesn’t happen ☹
> 
> The 5 year fix should help you🤞
> 
> But, yes, when it happened a few years ago (and interest rates on mortgages hit 15%), being able to sit tight gave homeowners the chance to regain any negative equity.


We had a fixed rate through those times thank heavens. They were scary times, but we did get through it and those with negative equity managed to sort themselves out eventually


----------



## Lurcherlad

Happy Paws2 said:


> I've never mentioned his colour, he could be green with red and blue spots on for all I care, he should go.


I didn’t say you did. I was referring to the comments by Huq in my post, which I thought you were reacting to.


----------



## rona

Doesn't seem so stupid now does it?


rona said:


> Think I'm going to draw a lot of my money out of the bank


----------



## Pawscrossed

Liz Truss was on local radio, if she was hoping for an easy ride, sadly not. Local radio stations are closer to the area, will likely never have the PM on again so they can use the interview to make a name for themselves. Graham Liver of BBC Radio Lancashire did very well.

Here's the media reviews from Twitter








‘Brutal’: media deride Liz Truss’s local radio interviews


Media commentators across political spectrum deride PM’s appearance on local radio to defend economic policy




www.theguardian.com





And Graham grilling Liz. Be warned, it's very cringey


----------



## Calvine

Deguslave said:


> If the housing market crashes the impact on the rental housing market will be huge. We're already seeing massive rent rises in the private sector as there are too many people applying for the same property. The social housing sector is already at breaking point.


Social housing has been in short supply since Mrs Thatcher's 'right to buy' idea, which in theory was cool, but as it was not replaced it was actually uncool. But I remember st the time some people being jubilant that they could own their own home which they would otherwise not have been able to do.. Thousands of migrants in dinghies arriving each year are housed in hotels as there is nowhere to put them.


----------



## Psygon

The polls showing how much labour are out in front are crazy. 

Don't know how anyone can look at what the government are doing and saying and think it's a good job right now.


----------



## rottieboys

I agree with you. They deserve all they get. They should of stuck with Boris.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> I agree with you. They deserve all they get. They should of stuck with Boris.


No, they should have chosen someone other than Liz Truss. 

Johnson was losing support both in the country and as a consequence in Parliament. Remember they lost byelections in Wakefield, and in Tiverton & Taunton. They also lost North Shropshire when the sitting MP, Owen Paterson, resigned. And the Chesham & Amersham byelection - there the sitting MP died.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Social housing has been in short supply since Mrs Thatcher's 'right to buy' idea, which in theory was cool, but as it was not replaced it was actually uncool. But I remember st the time some people being jubilant that they could own their own home which they would otherwise not have been able to do.. Thousands of migrants in dinghies arriving each year are housed in hotels as there is nowhere to put them.



Plus, she sold Telecom, Gas, Electric and anything else that wasn't tied down, might have made sense then it doesn't now. All they think about is profits not putting it back it to the companies, which when they were state owned they had to.


----------



## Jesthar

rottieboys said:


> I agree with you. They deserve all they get. They should of stuck with Boris.


There was no way they could. Boris lied too many times, was totall unrepentant about it, and was finally becoming a massive liability because of it. He actually survived way longer than he should have.


----------



## Deguslave

This just about sums up the impact this government is having on the housing market. And the MPs response is just more tory flannel, if you are buying a house, you can't wait.









'My mortgage offer went to 10.4% after mini-budget'


A first-time buyer tells Question Time four mortgage offers were withdrawn after market turmoil.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## OrientalSlave

Jesthar said:


> There was no way they could. Boris lied too many times, was totall unrepentant about it, and was finally becoming a massive liability because of it. He actually survived way longer than he should have.


And unfortunately paved the way for someone like Truss


----------



## rottieboys

Jesthar said:


> There was no way they could. Boris lied too many times, was totall unrepentant about it, and was finally becoming a massive liability because of it. He actually survived way longer than he should have.


So, what was his crime. Partygate, I saw those photos. Not much of a party. They were all in a work bubble. Actually, the party the labour had was more like a party. 
He lied to defend his friends. That was a stupid thing to do. He had the most awful start of his PM. The media got rid of Boris. The people who voted for him wanted him to stay. I know when the next general election, they will be out. Great.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> perhaps there are MPs begining to regret they ousted Boris.


I remember some time back, when the sh*t hit the fan for BJ and people were baying for his blood, I posted ''Be careful what you wish for'', and I got some strange comments. But surely this is about as bad as it gets?


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> So, what was his crime. Partygate,


 Yes, Partygate was the start, and as you say, there was a Starmer Partygate too; but I think what put the final nail in his coffin (after a few more 'scandals' in between) was the one about some guy (Deputy Chief Whip?) groping some other guy at some point. I doubt BJ even cares - he'll earn far more now than he ever did as PM. Before he was PM he was on something like £ three quarters of a million and was constantly bemoaning the fact that he found it hard to survive on his salary as PM (poor thing).


----------



## Lurcherlad

There are likely to be a couple of years before a GE.

I’m just hoping 🙏🏻 things turn around. It’s too early with Truss to call, surely?

It’s not as if Labour are a better option.

They did leave us skint last time 🙄

I’m still hoping Monster Raving Loonies get their act together before the next GE 😉


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> So, what was his crime. Partygate, I saw those photos. Not much of a party. They were all in a work bubble. Actually, the party the labour had was more like a party.
> He lied to defend his friends. That was a stupid thing to do. He had the most awful start of his PM. The media got rid of Boris. The people who voted for him wanted him to stay. I know when the next general election, they will be out. Great.


I don't know whether it says a lot about Boris or about the state of politics in this country that a common theme seems to be that Boris was only got rid of because of partygate. 

Partygate was just one thing in a long list of things that made Boris look both dishonest and lacking in any form of ethical standards. 

Chris pincher allegations and how he handled it
Owen Peterson
Partygate
PPE etc contracts during covid going to friends
The wallpaper and not being truthful
Prorogation of parliament
Not appointing an ethics advisor


----------



## Psygon

Lurcherlad said:


> There are likely to be a couple of years before a GE.
> 
> I’m just hoping 🙏🏻 things turn around. It’s too early with Truss to call, surely?
> 
> It’s not as if Labour are a better option.
> 
> They did leave us skint last time 🙄
> 
> I’m still hoping Monster Raving Loonies get their act together before the next GE 😉


While I agree that maybe it's too early to call, the performance so far hasn't exactly be stellar. I think a lot of people are worried that if this what happens in a week, what happens if this goes on for the entire 2 years?

I guess right now you're either in the camp of hoping it turns around or fearing what's next. 

Personally I'm in the fear camp mainly because based on what has happened, and how Truss performed in this radio interviews, I don't think anything will make them adjust or adapt plans they will just follow them blindly... Which to me is a bit worrying.


----------



## Dimwit

rottieboys said:


> So, what was his crime. Partygate,.


Well, for starters...

Lied to the Queen to illegally prorogue parliament
Arranged for £126K taxpayers money to be paid to an 'IT consultant' who later turned out to be his mistress
Took 52K in unlawful, undeclared loans to pay for refurbishment of Downing Street flat
'lost' WhatsApp messages where he offered to support his donor's exhibition, in return for said loan
Partygate - broke the law and mislead parliament time and time again
Attempted to change the whole system for disciplining MPs to save Owen Paterson
Cash for peerages
Ignored the House of Lords Appointments Committee to give a peerage to his friend and billionaire Tory donor
Planned to breach international law and override the Northern Ireland protocol
Tried to secure a senoir role for his unqualified mistress
Was responsible for a pitiful response to COVID giving us the worst death rate in europe wit at least 150K unnecessary deaths
'Forgot' about groping complaints against Chris Pincher and gave him a cabinet job
Met an ex-KGB agent without officials present and without declaring it and has repeatedly refused to give details


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> So, what was his crime. Partygate, I saw those photos. Not much of a party. They were all in a work bubble. Actually, the party the labour had was more like a party.
> He lied to defend his friends. That was a stupid thing to do. He had the most awful start of his PM. The media got rid of Boris. The people who voted for him wanted him to stay. I know when the next general election, they will be out. Great.


He has a long track record of lying. He got the sack, twice, when working as a journalist for lying. That takes some doing. He almost certainly lied to Marina Wheeler about his extra-marital affairs. It's astonishing and terrifying that the Conservatives ever saw fit to make him PM. 









Boris Johnson's 50 worst lies, gaffes and scandals as PM finally resigns


Boris Johnson has announced he will resign as Tory leader - and for so many MPs it was a very, very long time coming. We look back on his 50 worst lies, gaffes and scandals since the start of his career




www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## OrientalSlave

Calvine said:


> I remember some time back, when the sh*t hit the fan for BJ and people were baying for his blood, I posted ''Be careful what you wish for'', and I got some strange comments. But surely this is about as bad as it gets?


A party which could choose Johnson as it's leader (and therefore PM) should be taken out and shot.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Lurcherlad said:


> There are likely to be a couple of years before a GE.
> 
> I’m just hoping 🙏🏻 things turn around. It’s too early with Truss to call, surely?
> 
> It’s not as if Labour are a better option.
> 
> They did leave us skint last time 🙄
> 
> I’m still hoping Monster Raving Loonies get their act together before the next GE 😉


If you think Labour left us skint you must think we are bankrupt. The National Debt has almost doubled since then, and is 3 times what it was at the start of the 2008 financial crisis.


----------



## Calvine

Dimwit said:


> Well, for starters...
> 
> Lied to the Queen to illegally prorogue parliament
> Arranged for £126K taxpayers money to be paid to an 'IT consultant' who later turned out to be his mistress
> Took 52K in unlawful, undeclared loans to pay for refurbishment of Downing Street flat
> 'lost' WhatsApp messages where he offered to support his donor's exhibition, in return for said loan
> Partygate - broke the law and mislead parliament time and time again
> Attempted to change the whole system for disciplining MPs to save Owen Paterson
> Cash for peerages
> Ignored the House of Lords Appointments Committee to give a peerage to his friend and billionaire Tory donor
> Planned to breach international law and override the Northern Ireland protocol
> Tried to secure a senoir role for his unqualified mistress
> Was responsible for a pitiful response to COVID giving us the worst death rate in europe wit at least 150K unnecessary deaths
> 'Forgot' about groping complaints against Chris Pincher and gave him a cabinet job
> Met an ex-KGB agent without officials present and without declaring it and has repeatedly refused to give details


But apart from these points, a pretty regular, decent bloke . . . or?


----------



## Lurcherlad

OrientalSlave said:


> If you think Labour left us skint you must think we are bankrupt. The National Debt has almost doubled since then, and is 3 times what it was at the start of the 2008 financial crisis.


I’m not arguing that the Tory’s are any better.

None of them seem to achieve much in office … yet have all the answers in opposition 😉


----------



## Lurcherlad

Psygon said:


> While I agree that maybe it's too early to call, the performance so far hasn't exactly be stellar. I think a lot of people are worried that if this what happens in a week, what happens if this goes on for the entire 2 years?
> 
> I guess right now you're either in the camp of hoping it turns around or fearing what's next.
> 
> Personally I'm in the fear camp mainly because based on what has happened, and how Truss performed in this radio interviews, I don't think anything will make them adjust or adapt plans they will just follow them blindly... Which to me is a bit worrying.


But I’m powerless to do anything about it so I’m crossing my fingers 😉

Worrying won’t get me anywhere.


----------



## Psygon

Lurcherlad said:


> But I’m powerless to do anything about it so I’m crossing my fingers 😉
> 
> Worrying won’t get me anywhere.


I guess not. 

Although on the flip side I'm not sure that hoping will get us anywhere either 😂

I suppose one good thing is Liz has managed to unite a lot more people than most governments do. It's just they are united against her 😂


----------



## Snoringbear

Time for a general election in my opinion. I'm getting quite sick of this government's constant failures. That's also magnified by their tedious appointments of a new leader following the predecessors failures. Which seems to be happening with alarming regularity. How many PMs are they going to go through? Each one seems to be worse than the one before. Surely at this point anyone can see that they have nothing to offer if we've been given the best they've got to to put forward?

Personally I will take my next vote in whatever way will get the Conservatives out of power. Doesn't matter if it's not the party I support. I just want them gone, and once we have a Conservative minority in Parliament, then they the majority will hopefully pass a PR vote system and bin FPTP. At least then we'll have something more akin to a democracy where everyone is represented, rather than the single party control we have now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

*If they won't let the King go why can't the Prince of Wales go....*

*King Charles will not attend climate summit on Truss advice*


Published
51 minutes ago

Share







IMAGE SOURCE,PA MEDIA
*King Charles will not attend the climate change conference COP27, which is due to be held in Egypt next month, Buckingham Palace has confirmed.*
It was responding to a story in the Sunday Times which claimed Prime Minister Liz Truss had "ordered" the King not to attend.
The Palace said advice had been sought by the King and given by Ms Truss.
"With mutual friendship and respect there was agreement that the King would not attend," the Palace stated.
Before his ascension to the throne last month, the King - then the Prince of Wales - had indicated he would attend the annual conference.
Royal correspondent Jonny Dymond said the BBC had put it to the Palace the King must be personally disappointed given his long decades of passionate environmental campaigning.


----------



## Boxer123

Well I have to say much as I dislike the Tories it is nice to hear Liz Truss say she made a mistake something we never heard from Boris. Let’s hope it’s onwards and upwards and she doesn’t bank rupt the country.


----------



## Deguslave

Boxer123 said:


> Well I have to say much as I dislike the Tories it is nice to hear Liz Truss say she made a mistake something we never heard from Boris. Let’s hope it’s onwards and upwards and she doesn’t bank rupt the country.


But she also passed the blame to the Chancellor.

I think it may be too little to late to save her as far as the electorate are concerned though.


----------



## Boxer123

Deguslave said:


> But she also passed the blame to the Chancellor.
> 
> I think it may be too little to late to save her as far as the electorate are concerned though.


Well yes it is the Tories. I only heard a snippet.


----------



## Happy Paws2

How she could sit there looking as if butter wouldn't melt in her mouth is beyond me and then to say, she said none of the decisions were disgusted with the cabinet, isn't that what they are for.


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> But she also passed the blame to the Chancellor.
> 
> I think it may be too little to late to save her as far as the electorate are concerned though.


I suppose right now we need to be more concerned about whether she has convinced her own party (as much as it amuses me just how unpopular the government has been made by what they are doing). 

It seems unlikely to me a general election will be called, so unless something dramatic happens right now we don't have much of a say. And even if we don't agree with what's going on, surely no one wants another leadership campaign. So... The question is, can she do enough to stop her MPs voting against her and remain in as PM? 

It looks to me like we are headed to public sector cuts and welfare cuts. I have a horrible feeling both of those things will stabilize the markets and those in her party who have been questioning what they are doing will go silent ... Time will tell I guess. The chairman of the conservative party said earlier, in response to a question about affording energy bills, people can cut their energy or get a better job. Which just confirms my view that they have absolutely no clue what people are actually going thru so won't think twice about cuts. 🙁

I think it will be a difficult couple of years for a lot of people until that next general election.


----------



## rottieboys

Boxer123 said:


> Well I have to say much as I dislike the Tories it is nice to hear Liz Truss say she made a mistake something we never heard from Boris. Let’s hope it’s onwards and upwards and she doesn’t bank rupt the country.


Did n't Boris apologies? I thought I heard him say it.


----------



## Boxer123

rottieboys said:


> Did n't Boris apologies? I thought I heard him say it.


Not that I heard never heard him apologise or admit a mistake. He just lied. Don’t get me wrong I’m not a Truss fan I just thought it was interesting when I heard her speak today. I didn’t hear the whole interview.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Did n't Boris apologies? I thought I heard him say it.


He did apologise multiple times. But after each apology he then went on and did something else (or worse). At least that’s my memory of it anyway.

I think on a number of occasions people questioned the sincerity too. Like was he apologising because he meant it, or justbecause he’d been found out.


----------



## Boxer123

Psygon said:


> He did apologise multiple times. But after each apology he then went on and did something else (or worse). At least that’s my memory of it anyway.
> 
> I think on a number of occasions people questioned the sincerity too. Like was he apologising because he meant it, or justbecause he’d been found out.


The party issue I’d have had a lot more respect if he had said, ‘yes we had some gatherings, I apologise.’ Instead he denied it for ages.


----------



## Jesthar

rottieboys said:


> Did n't Boris apologies? I thought I heard him say it.


Only when cornered like a rat in a trap...


----------



## rona

OMG Jake Berry MP 

"“People know that when their [fuel] bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or get a higher salary, higher wages, go out there and get that new job. That’s the approach the govt is taking".


----------



## Psygon

rona said:


> OMG Jake Berry MP
> 
> "“People know that when their [fuel] bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or get a higher salary, higher wages, go out there and get that new job. That’s the approach the govt is taking".


Ah yeah that's the quote I saw too. 

It's just so detached from reality. Maybe when you have resources and options you can do this. 

Not when you're a single mum with 2 kids and need to be able to provide childcare and work. Not when you care for an adult. Not when the only way to get a higher paid job is to move and you can't afford interest rates. Not when you rely on energy for healthcare. Etc etc etc.


----------



## rona

Nor when you are eighty five.................

I would not of believed that anyone could say this, had i not seen the video


----------



## Psygon

rona said:


> Nor when you are eighty five.................
> 
> I would not of believed that anyone could say this, had i not seen the video


I'm pretty sure the government think people are split into two categories, regardless of age.

Lazy so-and-so who can't be bothered to earn more money who should be avoided at all costs.
Go-getter earning 150k and just generally lovely and who need lots of support and money.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Chancellor does a U-turn on 45p tax cut.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Did n't Boris apologies? I thought I heard him say it.


No apology is worthy of all those crimes. It’s a position of responsibility being PM, one the recent incumbents seem to have forgotten.


----------



## Psygon

Happy Paws2 said:


> Chancellor does a U-turn on 45p tax cut.


Just been reading this...

Not sure how it can go from absolutely the right thing to do yesterday to a distraction and U-turn today. 

Guess Liz wasn't prepared to do unpopular things after all.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Happy Paws2 said:


> Chancellor does a U-turn on 45p tax cut.


Apparently they listened. They backtracked after failing and this seem to be a common theme. It’s embarrassing. 

What a load of old tosh. Now there will be people hand wringing and saying it’s good but they should be listening already and save so many from worry. Boris didn’t listen either. If they had we’d not be in this mess.


----------



## Cully

No one is going to trust a word she says now.


----------



## Deguslave

Cully said:


> No one is going to trust a word she says now.


I don't think many trusted her before. She flip flopped all over the place in the place in the hustings. She said one thing, then as soon as it was unpopular she changed her mind.

We don't need a PM who changes her mind like the wind.


----------



## Boxer123

Deguslave said:


> I don't think many trusted her before. She flip flopped all over the place in the place in the hustings. She said one thing, then as soon as it was unpopular she changed her mind.
> 
> We don't need a PM who changes her mind like the wind.


Do they not take advice ? Some many U turns from the Conservatives, surely they knew what would happen?


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> I thought I heard him say it.


He did, I'm fairly sure, apologise (after a fashion) for breaking lockdown rules for which he was fined. Starmer and Rayner also broke the rules, don't think they were fined, don't think they apologised either (not sure, just what I seem to recall).


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> Did n't Boris apologies? I thought I heard him say it.


He always managed to turn an apology into an excuse as to why he was in the right


----------



## Deguslave

I do wonder if the tories are just bored with being in power now and are trying to find a way out, without actually having to call a general election.

That way, they can pass the blame again.


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> No apology is worthy of all those crimes. It’s a position of responsibility being PM, one the recent incumbents seem to have forgotten.


Can I asks what crimes he did. Yes, he was fine for party gate. What other crimes did he do. He was being advised by the science. He did not go to China and bring the Covid home. Yes, He should of lock down sooner. Then people were saying, No lockdowns. What ever he did was wrong. In the end it was n't his fault people of all ages were getting Covid and dying. He was in a bubble with his work colleagues. Like other people who worked together. Actually, just like Keir Starmer and the rest of them. I might be losing a battle here. Seem like most members are for Labour.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Calvine said:


> He did, I'm fairly sure, apologise (after a fashion) for breaking lockdown rules for which he was fined. Starmer and Rayner also broke the rules, don't think they were fined, don't think they apologised either (not sure, just what I seem to recall).


They said they would resign if found to be guilty. They were not, therefore no apology required. Johnson said he would not resign even though he had broken the rules he had created. An apology of any kind would be insufficient for the crimes committed and culture he believed in.


----------



## rottieboys

Pawscrossed said:


> They said they would resign if found to be guilty. They were not, therefore no apology required. Johnson said he would not resign even though he had broken the rules he had created. An apology of any kind would be insufficient for the crimes committed and culture he believed in.


Seem funny to me, that they knew that they was n't going to be fined.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Can I asks what crimes he did. Yes, he was fine for party gate. What other crimes did he do. He was being advised by the science. He did not go to China and bring the Covid home. Yes, He should of lock down sooner. Then people were saying, No lockdowns. What ever he did was wrong. In the end it was n't his fault people of all ages were getting Covid and dying. He was in a bubble with his work colleagues. Like other people who worked together. Actually, just like Keir Starmer and the rest of them. I might be losing a battle here. Seem like most members are for Labour.


@Dimwit helpfully listed a whole bunch of insults and lies already. 

Partygate was fact checked by Independent lawyers 








Did the Prime Minister mislead Parliament over ‘Partygate’? - Full Fact
 

The publication of the Sue Gray report has prompted fresh claims Boris Johnson misled Parliament when he stated all lockdown rules were followed.




fullfact.org





And what point is there in defending this awful man who got us here? Even his own party lost faith. He’s gone. I expect his memoirs will be on the 99p discount listings on Amazon doubtless full of more selective recalls .


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Seem funny to me, that they knew that they was n't going to be fined.


They were investigated. They were not found guilty. No fine.

Johnson also investigated, was found guilty (Big Issue said 17 parties, not sure of the total) and fIned. He broke the law. Did not resign so the country was being run by a man with a police fine and we still don’t know how much,

And perhaps this point is missed. In breaking the law he put lives at risk. His staff put lies at risk and worse he lied In Parliament saying he didn’t know anything but was seen - photographed - there. That is indefensible and no debate changed my mind then or now. He has no morals, none at all.


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Can I asks what crimes he did. Yes, he was fine for party gate. What other crimes did he do. He was being advised by the science. He did not go to China and bring the Covid home. Yes, He should of lock down sooner. Then people were saying, No lockdowns. What ever he did was wrong. In the end it was n't his fault people of all ages were getting Covid and dying. He was in a bubble with his work colleagues. Like other people who worked together. Actually, just like Keir Starmer and the rest of them. I might be losing a battle here. Seem like most members are for Labour.


Yes, I think you are losing a battle except there is no battle, at least in my eyes. The facts - not the media - speak for themselves. I am not ‘for Labour’, most members seem to keep their allegiances quiet. I detest Johnson as he’s clearly deluded a lot of people into thinking he’s a victim.


----------



## Dimwit

rottieboys said:


> Can I asks what crimes he did. Yes, he was fine for party gate. What other crimes did he do. He was being advised by the science. He did not go to China and bring the Covid home. Yes, He should of lock down sooner. Then people were saying, No lockdowns. What ever he did was wrong. In the end it was n't his fault people of all ages were getting Covid and dying. He was in a bubble with his work colleagues. Like other people who worked together. Actually, just like Keir Starmer and the rest of them. I might be losing a battle here. Seem like most members are for Labour.


He downplayed the covid risk even when he has advised not to. He did not follow the science or go as he was advised. He demonstrated utter disregard for the safety of UK citizens “let the bodies pile high”. 
he was not in a covid bubble with his staff - he frequently flouted his own governments rules by commuting between Downing Street and Chequers while we were in lockdown. 
when he has covid his staff had to effectively barricade him into his office to stop him wandering around. 
He thinks of nothing but his career and mollifying his rich backers which is why we had such abysmal covid death rates.
I genuinely don’t see how anyone can support someone who has shown such utter contempt for the electorate and normalised sleaze and scandal so much that people barely even react to them any more. 



rottieboys said:


> rottieboys said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seem funny to me, that they knew that they was n't going to be fined.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps because, unlike the Conservatives, they knew that they hadn’t broken the law and, unlike Johnson they actually have integrity…
Click to expand...


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> Can I asks what crimes he did. Yes, he was fine for party gate. What other crimes did he do. He was being advised by the science. He did not go to China and bring the Covid home. Yes, He should of lock down sooner. Then people were saying, No lockdowns. What ever he did was wrong. In the end it was n't his fault people of all ages were getting Covid and dying. He was in a bubble with his work colleagues. Like other people who worked together. Actually, just like Keir Starmer and the rest of them. I might be losing a battle here. Seem like most members are for Labour.


You are being very selective. Partygate was a crime, but you are ignoring the long list of lies he has told to various people. The Conservatives have lost some normally safe seats in by-elections because of it. He's a liability the party doesn't need.









Mission Statement


Lies told by Boris Johnson and his government.




boris-johnson-lies.com


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> Seem funny to me, that they knew that they was n't going to be fined.


Why do you think they knew what the outcome would be?


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> Why do you think they knew what the outcome would be?


Would n't surprise me.


----------



## rottieboys

Shall we all have a go at Liz Truss now.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Shall we all have a go at Liz Truss now.


People are not having a go at Boris Johnson... Which seems to be the implication here by bringing Liz Truss into it. To me it almost rubbishes people's views that they don't want the leader of this country to be someone who normalizes corruption and totally disregards ethics. 

People are stating facts about how Boris Johnson repeatedly lied to the electorate and misled and lied to Parliament. It's not having a go it's just stating what happened when he was Prime Minister.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> People are not having a go at Boris Johnson... Which seems to be the implication here by bringing Liz Truss into it. To me it almost rubbishes people's views that they don't want the leader of this country to be someone who normalizes corruption and totally disregards ethics.
> 
> People are stating facts about how Boris Johnson repeatedly lied to the electorate and misled and lied to Parliament. It's not having a go it's just stating what happened when he was Prime Minister.


What about Tony Blair, he told a few lied. He ensured that the British Armed Forces participated in the war in Afghanistan weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, what weapons. He was not whiter then white.


----------



## Dimwit

rottieboys said:


> What about Tony Blair, he told a few lied. He ensured that the British Armed Forces participated in the war in Afghanistan weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, what weapons. He was not whiter then white.


Nobody is saying he was. You seem utterly blinkered in insisting that Boris did nothing wrong while digging back to previous labour PMs to rehash their lies. Nobody is claiming that Blair was 100% honest but surely everyone can see how corrupt and self-serving Johnson and his government are


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> What about Tony Blair, he told a few lied. He ensured that the British Armed Forces participated in the war in Afghanistan weapons of mass destruction. Yeah, what weapons. He was not whiter then white.


Probably can't add much more than @Dimwit has already said.

But I really don't understand the blind loyalty to Boris Johnson. I do absolutely get being loyal to your political views, but this is different. 

You come across as confident that Boris has never done anything wrong, even when evidence is provided that he did a lot wrong.


----------



## rottieboys

Dimwit said:


> Nobody is saying he was. You seem utterly blinkered in insisting that Boris did nothing wrong while digging back to previous labour PMs to rehash their lies. Nobody is claiming that Blair was 100% honest but surely everyone can see how corrupt and self-serving Johnson and his government are


Yes, I must have blinkers on. He was voted in with Tories win biggest majority since 1980s. I think we all had blinkers on. From day one he was being targeted by certain news papers. Then came Covid..This was the first pandemic we had. People were moaning because they needed help getting back into the UK, after going aboard or on cruise. I would n't wish all these problems on anyone. Yes, mistakes were made. Boris announce that a vaccin has now available to try to stop Covid spreading. As far as I can see, he was doing what ever he could. Still, these news paper were determine to bring him down. Was this anything to do with Brexit I wonder. He was having that horrible John Bercow to deal as well, don n't get me started on him.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Yes, I must have blinkers on. He was voted in with Tories win biggest majority since 1980s. I think we all had blinkers on. From day one he was being targeted by certain news papers. Then came Covid..This was the first pandemic we had. People were moaning because they needed help getting back into the UK, after going aboard or on cruise. I would n't wish all these problems on anyone. Yes, mistakes were made. Boris announce that a vaccin has now available to try to stop Covid spreading. As far as I can see, he was doing what ever he could. Still, these news paper were determine to bring him down. Was this anything to do with Brexit I wonder. He was having that horrible John Bercow to deal as well, don n't get me started on him.


Having a large majority doesn’t mean you can then proceed to lie, cheat, and totally rubbish standards and ethics. It wasn’t the media that caused that, it was all Boris.


----------



## rottieboys

Psygon said:


> Having a large majority doesn’t mean you can then proceed to lie, cheat, and totally rubbish standards and ethics. It wasn’t the media that caused that, it was all Boris.


His cheating had nothing to do with being an PM. We all knew what he was like. No you are wrong, It was the media who can bring someone down. I was totally shocked how the articles written about Boris was allowed to be printed. Never gave up. Yes , like I said this had to do with Brexit.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> His cheating had nothing to do with being an PM. We all knew what he was like. No you are wrong, It was the media who can bring someone down. I was totally shocked how the articles written about Boris was allowed to be printed. Never gave up. Yes , like I said this had to do with Brexit.


😬 wow

I assume every time someone has posted something in this thread that shows that actually it was Boris who did these things you’ve not read them and simply skipped over them.

I’m not saying the media isn’t biased, I’m someone who has called out that very fact in other threads, but it is simply bizarre to me that in the face of so much evidence of just how much Boris did that abused the position of PM you can claim he never did anything wrong and the media is entirely to blame.

I think as well, when it comes to Boris, the right wing press we’re largely supportive of him right up to the end when they realised the end was coming. I read both right and left wing press in order to try and get a balanced view of any major stories…


----------



## rottieboys

Ok, it seems we must disagree with each other. I am a Boris supporter, I watched the telly everyday especially news programme. In the end I had to turned them off. Talk about we must get rid of Boris. Well these papers won. Who next.


----------



## Deguslave

We DID have to get rid of Boris, he was turning the country into a laughing stock on the global stage. He could no longer be trusted, it really was that simple, it had nothing to do with brexit and EVERYTHING to do with his conduct in office.


----------



## huckybuck

@rottieboys Don’t worry - now Boris is gone the media are doing exactly the same with Liz and will continue to do so til they get the Tories out. It would have been the same if Rishi had got in.

I gave up on this thread because it felt like I was the only Tory in here.

There’s absolutely no point in trying to have your own say or opinion as you will just get ridiculed or belittled for it which is tiresome and un healthy.

Let them stick to their one sided views - they are absolutely no better than the media.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Ok, it seems we must disagree with each other. I am a Boris supporter, I watched the telly everyday especially news programme. In the end I had to turned them off. Talk about we must get rid of Boris. Well these papers won. Who next.


Well… I do agree we will have to disagree. Ultimately on an almost weekly basis Boris Johnson stood in the House of Commons and said thing that could easily be fact checked and shown to be untrue. He stood in the House of Commons and said no parties happened. He released statements saying he didn’t know things and later said oops I forgot and I did know that after all

that wasn’t the media misrepresenting him, they were his own words that were being reported.

I decided to have a look around at reports of press bias towards Boris Johnson.

Lots of right wing press claiming the left wing press and the bbc were biased towards him, which pretty much is what I would expect. And I suspect it’s largely true - but then on the flip side, ignoring the bbc, the right wing press are largely biased and negative about labour too. None of the reports I’ve found so far are research papers, so will keep looking.

I did Find some interesting research for the 2019 election which said the media were overwhelmingly positively biased towards Boris Johnson during the campaign and dedicated far more positive press to him. For the first 4 weeeks of that election period stories about labour were nonexistent or negative. The implication being that that bias helped get him elected.









British press dramatically cut criticism of ruling Tories for 2019 election, study finds


Coverage of Labour was also over twice as hostile compared to previous poll




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Ok, it seems we must disagree with each other. I am a Boris supporter, I watched the telly everyday especially news programme. In the end I had to turned them off. Talk about we must get rid of Boris. Well these papers won. Who next.





huckybuck said:


> @rottieboys Don’t worry - now Boris is gone the media are doing exactly the same with Liz and will continue to do so til they get the Tories out. It would have been the same if Rishi had got in.
> 
> I gave up on this thread because it felt like I was the only Tory in here.
> 
> There’s absolutely no point in trying to have your own say or opinion as you will just get ridiculed or belittled for it which is tiresome and un healthy.
> 
> Let them stick to their one sided views - they are absolutely no better than the media.


Do you both assume that those of us who are querying your support for Boris or the Tory party want to be in this situation? I wish Liz Truss or Rishi Sunack would do better. I really do. As it is, I fear people will die as if we've not lost enough already. We have workers on strike and an NHS on its knees, nobody strikes unless they must.

The instability that the party have created through their own hands and Covid - the factual evidence as determined _*not*_ by us, by the press but by the party breaking their own rules (how hard is that to understand, the police, Sue Gray and numerous lawyers established this) - obfusticating the facts around leaving the EU and numerous changes in PM and the cabinet are unwelcome. If it had been any other party then the same debate would occur but it's the Tory party. _The Government_ as the thread indicates. Not Labour, Lib Dems or Greens or others.

If you really think we're all going to be cheering them on, then I wonder what country you've been living it for the past 12 years. It certainly wasn't the same one as me.

Can I politely suggest that you both take a voluntary shift at a food bank and meet people who are affected? Clearly you both feel that there's bias in PF, but some engagement with those on the breadline might give you an insight into how desperate it is out there. It really is. That's where my narrative come from. _Not politics_ but _people_, real humans who are at their wits end with worry and fear, who simply can't work any more hours and are terrified at the next two years of your party in power because the last 12 has been a miserable cycle through poverty and in many cases homelessness, and what we need are long term solutions, not threats and backtracking. They are the government, they can't change their minds about 45p tax and hope we'll all cheer. (They could try raising benefits, reverse cuts to corporation tax, and reinstate the cap on bankers’ bonuses first and stop funding the rich).

Then come back to this thread with some awareness because to think you can jump on here and whine about parties that aren't in power in an attempt to make the Tories look better _is_ ridiculous and tiresome. It's playground stuff and no better than Boris Johnson's eye rolling and poor attempts at comedy. It's _twelve_ years ago.

And yes, it's awful when the party you've supported is failing. It's akin to watching England getting a 5-0 thrashing by Germany and wondering when they'll really play on the pitch. But the players and the team listen to feedback. The bigger failure of the Tory party is that they haven't listened to the feedback - neither are either of you, it's easier to blame it on all of us isn't it? Even when the facts are laid out in links. If they did listen, if Johnson was just a little bit honest and they called the election and we could all make a choice, then maybe we'd be a bit kinder. But right now, they deserve a drubbing. I wish they didn't but they have themselves to blame and it's unfair on those who did elect them in faith they'd do well, and they've let you both down.


----------



## Psygon

huckybuck said:


> @rottieboys Don’t worry - now Boris is gone the media are doing exactly the same with Liz and will continue to do so til they get the Tories out. It would have been the same if Rishi had got in.
> 
> I gave up on this thread because it felt like I was the only Tory in here.
> 
> There’s absolutely no point in trying to have your own say or opinion as you will just get ridiculed or belittled for it which is tiresome and un healthy.
> 
> Let them stick to their one sided views - they are absolutely no better than the media.


I've got the impression there are a number of conservative voters on here. However, I think people on both sides of the political spectrum don't get the whole Boris Johnson loyalty - so there is some unity in that conversation. There also appears to be unity on some aspects of the mini budget. Ultimately that comes down to people's personal experiences and what they are going through, have gone through or see others going through. If people think something looks unfair they are going to call it out.

Genuine question: When you and others are talking about media bias towards the government is it primarily the BBC you are referring to, or the wider media?

I've carried on looking for research into bias in reporting about Boris Johnson.

This following graph comes from research from the press gazette into how partygate was covered. It shows whether front pages covering both partygate and beergate were either negative or positive. It looked at over 1000 front pages. 

Essentially the media that is most often associated with the right wing were positive, those on the left negative. A couple of newspapers were more evenhanded in the reporting, basing headlines on facts rather than sentiment (Telegraph and Times). 

To me this just confirms what I'd expect. Doesn't necessarily say it's biased tho.










In terms of the current PM and the media treatment and the discussion on here... The mini budget crashed the economy, raised interest rates, caused financial policy experts worldwide to question what the heck the UK was doing and then caused a (humiliating) u turn. The discussion around this is negative because it's had a negative impact on a large part of the population.

Does that make it biased? Maybe... It probably doesn't help that the only people I've seen supporting the budget are people who have come out with absolute nonsense statements like if people can't afford their bills they can get better jobs. Or low paid people just don't work as hard as high paid people. It doesn't really inspire empathy for their views (and to be clear im not saying that's been said on here, nor am I saying people on here support that view). It also provides the media with absolute gems they can publish to get people riled up.

Ultimately, the media will always attempt to control the narrative, it's what sells papers and makes people tune in and switch on.


----------



## rona

huckybuck said:


> @rottieboys Don’t worry - now Boris is gone the media are doing exactly the same with Liz and will continue to do so til they get the Tories out. It would have been the same if Rishi had got in.
> 
> I gave up on this thread because it felt like I was the only Tory in here.
> 
> There’s absolutely no point in trying to have your own say or opinion as you will just get ridiculed or belittled for it which is tiresome and un healthy.
> 
> Let them stick to their one sided views - they are absolutely no better than the media.


I'm sorry, but I like Rishi, backed Boris until I couldn't. Got the same reaction that you are getting now.

As for Liz Truss.......sorry, I've listened to what she's said and truly believe that she has an issue with her brain.........seems her chancellor does too

Can't stand Starmer but will not support Tories that are bringing down our country and morals


----------



## rottieboys

Still, we have 2 years with Liz.Lets see what she can do. In the mean time, can we please give her a chance. The Labour Lynch mob was going strong I notice.


----------



## rottieboys

As for striking, I agree people should strike, if they feel they are not being listen too. But where is the money going to come from? Stop the waste in the NHS could help.


----------



## Boxer123

rottieboys said:


> As for striking, I agree people should strike, if they feel they are not being listen too. But where is the money going to come from? Stop the waste in the NHS could help.


The NHS that the Tories are running into the ground?

I don’t have a degree in economics or politics but to guess where the money could come from. The Tories could tax the super wealthy and big corporations who have billions in profit whilst everyone else struggles. But as Rishi openly admitted they prefer to take from the poor to give to the rich.


----------



## Jobeth

If they don’t fund the 5% pay rise for experienced teachers then they’ll be the first to go. Schools can’t afford to cover it with the budget they have and some will replace them with cheaper staff.


----------



## Boxer123

Jobeth said:


> If they don’t fund the 5% pay rise for experienced teachers then they’ll be the first to go. Schools can’t afford to cover it with the budget they have and some will replace them with cheaper staff.


Yet MPs got a pay rise this year.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> Still, we have 2 years with Liz.Lets see what she can do. In the mean time, can we please give her a chance. The Labour Lynch mob was going strong I notice.


Maybe. Or maybe she will be defenestrated for the same reason Johnson was, that she has become a major electoral liability. I see no reason to 'give her a chance'. Would you 'give Starmer a chance'? No. Neither would our right-wing press, which is the majority of it.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> As for striking, I agree people should strike, if they feel they are not being listen too. But where is the money going to come from? Stop the waste in the NHS could help.


Please tell us what the 'waste' is.


----------



## StormyThai

rottieboys said:


> Can I asks what crimes he did. Yes, he was fine for party gate. What other crimes did he do. He was being advised by the science. He did not go to China and bring the Covid home. Yes, He should of lock down sooner. Then people were saying, No lockdowns. What ever he did was wrong. In the end it was n't his fault people of all ages were getting Covid and dying. He was in a bubble with his work colleagues. Like other people who worked together. Actually, just like Keir Starmer and the rest of them. I might be losing a battle here. Seem like most members are for Labour.


Boris Johnson: The prime minister who broke all the rules
Just one article...there are many others.
Partygate was just the icing on the cake...


----------



## Jobeth

Boxer123 said:


> Yet MPs got a pay rise this year.


They did but none of them will be losing their jobs! School budgets already don’t cover the costs.


----------



## Calvine

Pawscrossed said:


> They said they would resign if found to be guilty. They were not, therefore no apology required. Johnson said he would not resign even though he had broken the rules he had created. An apology of any kind would be insufficient for the crimes committed and culture he believed in.


By ''they'' I guess you mean Starmer and Rayner . . . there were photos of them clearly socialising during lockdown (most people saw the photos).


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> Shall we all have a go at Liz Truss now.


 I never normally watch daytime TV, but yes, I shall watch PMQ tomorrow to see what reception she gets.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> I never normally watch daytime TV, but yes, I shall watch PMQ tomorrow to see what reception she gets.



There isn't one tomorrow as it's the tory conference.

They never have PMQ's when it's conference season.


----------



## Magyarmum

Just shows how out of touch aka not interested I am in British politics because I thought Kwasi Kwarteng was a town in South Africa


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> Please tell us what the 'waste' is.


Yes, there is a lot of waste in the NHS. Let me give you example. Every time this elderly lady went into hospital, she came home with another zimmer fame. She had five in all, all practically new each one. Nobody wanted to take them. We phoned the hospital up who said just throw them away. The amount of prescription medication on repeat, would just store up in cupboards. Again trying to stop them pilling up was a nightmare with GP. Another lady had ulcerated legs. So boxes of bandaged all new and sealed would be kept in her room. Unfortunately, she died. Contacted the Pharmacy, GP, and District nursing about these dressings which were still seal. There was about 30 in a box. I was told again throw them out. I could go on and on. This in my opinion is just waste.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> Yes, there is a lot of waste in the NHS. Let me give you example. Every time this elderly lady went into hospital, she came home with another zimmer fame. She had five in all, all practically new each one. Nobody wanted to take them. We phoned the hospital up who said just throw them away. The amount of prescription medication on repeat, would just store up in cupboards. Again trying to stop them pilling up was a nightmare with GP. Another lady had ulcerated legs. So boxes of bandaged all new and sealed would be kept in her room. Unfortunately, she died. Contacted the Pharmacy, GP, and District nursing about these dressings which were still seal. There was about 30 in a box. I was told again throw them out. I could go on and on. This in my opinion is just waste.


I guess she came home with another Zimmer frame as one was never taken in with her...

I've had no problems adjusting my own prescriptions downwards - one item I end up getting because the previous one is out of date, not used up. I'm guessing this particular elderly lady was no longer very independent, and for repeat prescriptions to 'pile up' she wasn't taking all her medication for whatever reason. 

However medicine - as I've found - cannot be returned as there is no guarantee it's been correctly stored. Possibly something similar applies to dressings. Certainly dressings also have an expiry date.

I would also suggest that the cost of this particular set of waste is trivial in the scheme of things. Most medicines are cheap, most dressings are cheap, a Zimmer frame is under £50. Compared to the cost of employing an experienced nurse (for example) it will be peanuts.


----------



## Deguslave

A good example of waste in the NHS; I had to go to A&E during the heatwave as I'd dropped something heavy on my toe and it was suspected that I'd broken it. I hobbled into the waiting room to find they had the heating on! In the middle of a heatwave.


----------



## Dimwit

Calvine said:


> By ''they'' I guess you mean Starmer and Rayner . . . there were photos of them clearly socialising during lockdown (most people saw the photos).


But we were not in lockdown then. The rules had been relaxed and so Starmer et al. were not braking the rules. Unlike Boris Johnson who broke HIS OWN rules all through the pandemic.


----------



## rottieboys

It all adds up. peanuts or not. As for the sealed bandaged, they were well in date not sure if bandaged have expiry dates on them. I will check this out when I go in Boots next. The medications were Paracetamol. some people did not need them everyday. So they were the ones which was pilling up. Funny, if you say to the person, perhaps you don 't need them. They say Yes I do. We had to stop the repeat with the help with GP. A lot of the elderly people reluctant to give up meds which they don' t need. I am glad when the dossett boxes were put in place. They are not automatic given if the person can administer medication themselves. Unfortunately if the person who needed the Zimmer frame had no family to take their old one in to the hospital for them. Then they would have a piled of Zimmer frames. Even so, phone calls were made to have them collected by Medequip UK.


----------



## Arny

OrientalSlave said:


> I would also suggest that the cost of this particular set of waste is trivial in the scheme of things. Most medicines are cheap, most dressings are cheap, a Zimmer frame is under £50. Compared to the cost of employing an experienced nurse (for example) it will be peanuts.


It still all adds up, thought to be in the hundreds of millions just on wasted medication every year.
It was always a struggle to get my grandpa’s medication altered or stopped and that was with someone in the field helping him let alone if it was left to someone in their 90s to sort themselves.

Someone recently asked on my local fb group who could take her equipment after recovery from operation. The hospital didn’t want it back.
Followed by several comments outlining what they had lying around at home that they also couldn’t get anyone to it take back.
My doctors took some dressings etc after my grandma died so hopefully that was actually used.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Arny said:


> It still all adds up, thought to be in the hundreds of millions just on wasted medication every year.
> It was always a struggle to get my grandpa’s medication altered or stopped and that was with someone in the field helping him let alone if it was left to someone in their 90s to sort themselves.
> 
> Someone recently asked on my local fb group who could take her equipment after recovery from operation. The hospital didn’t want it back.
> Followed by several comments outlining what they had lying around at home that they also couldn’t get anyone to it take back.
> My doctors took some dressings etc after my grandma died so hopefully that was actually used.



They won't take a lot of equipment back because of germs and drugs and dressings in case they have been tampered with.

Charity shops will take any unwanted equipment.


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> They won't take a lot of equipment back because of germs and drugs and dressings in case they have been tampered with.
> 
> Charity shops will take any unwanted equipment.


Funny, But they always take the hospital beds back. Can't take them back quick enough.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> Funny, But they always take the hospital beds back. Can't take them back quick enough.


They are easy to test and quick and easy to disinfect - they are disinfected between each occupant. And they are valuable. Up to £2k and (I suspect) beyond.


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> They are easy to test and quick and easy to disinfect - they are disinfected between each occupant. And they are valuable. Up to £2k and (I suspect) beyond.


If they do that for hospital beds, why can n't they do it on Zimmer frames, etc.


----------



## O2.0

Send the bandages and prescriptions here! We have to pay for everything, even with insurance. 

In all seriousness, look at charities like Doctors Without Borders or charities that send supplies to impoverished nations. I have a friend who would take antibiotics every time she went to Cuba because they're very hard to come by there.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> If they do that for hospital beds, why can n't they do it on Zimmer frames, etc.


They aren't anything like as valuable. How much will it cost to get them back and disinfect them compared with how much they cost?

Better examples of waste are prescribing OTC medications (aspirin, paracetamol & ibuprofen are examples and cost £142 million), over-prescribing antibiotics (£3.7 million though some patients bully GPs who won't prescribe them), people going to A&E or seeing their GP for things easily treated at home with no medical intervention (£2 billion). It would take a massive, massive pill of unused medicines, bandages and zimmer frames to reach £2 billion.


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> They aren't anything like as valuable. How much will it cost to get them back and disinfect them compared with how much they cost?
> 
> Better examples of waste are prescribing OTC medications (aspirin, paracetamol & ibuprofen are examples and cost £142 million), over-prescribing antibiotics (£3.7 million though some patients bully GPs who won't prescribe them), people going to A&E or seeing their GP for things easily treated at home with no medical intervention (£2 billion). It would take a massive, massive pill of unused medicines, bandages and zimmer frames to reach £2 billion.


I am not talking about saving £2 billion. I am talking about the waste in the NHS. My example is only one unit. Imagine other units all over GB.


----------



## OrientalSlave

rottieboys said:


> I am not talking about saving £2 billion. I am talking about the waste in the NHS. My example is only one unit. Imagine other units all over GB.


Yes it's one unit (presumably you mean one Zimmer frame), but as I have said, the cost of repatriating it might be as much as the cost of a new one once you take storing it and dispensing it to the right person into accounts. When my father went into a nursing home (in the expectation he could return to an independent life) he was 'measured' for a Zimmer frame.

In my view most of what you are getting cross about shows the costs of underfunding social care. It also leads to bed blocking which apparently will cost the NHS £587 million between the last GE and the next one. 





__





Lack of social care has led to 2.5 million lost bed days in the NHS between the last Election and this one


Lack of social care has led to 2.5 million lost bed days in the NHS between the last Election and this one. Over the same period these ‘social care delayed discharges’ have cost the NHS a total of £587 million, or £27,000 each and every hour.




www.ageuk.org.uk





The issues I have pointed out are ones which apply UK-wise, and over-prescription of anti-biotics is not only costly, it has a further cost as resistant strains of bacteria emerge and have to be treated (if causing problems) with more expensive, and more dangerous, antibiotics.


----------



## Calvine

rottieboys said:


> Yes, there is a lot of waste in the NHS. Let me give you example. Every time this elderly lady went into hospital, she came home with another zimmer fame. She had five in all, all practically new each one. Nobody wanted to take them. We phoned the hospital up who said just throw them away. The amount of prescription medication on repeat, would just store up in cupboards. Again trying to stop them pilling up was a nightmare with GP. Another lady had ulcerated legs. So boxes of bandaged all new and sealed would be kept in her room. Unfortunately, she died. Contacted the Pharmacy, GP, and District nursing about these dressings which were still seal. There was about 30 in a box. I was told again throw them out. I could go on and on. This in my opinion is just waste.


My neighbour is 90, forgets many things but is physically fit and has a lady friend who looks after him. Someone (not sure who) organised a district nurse to come and check on him a couple of times a week which sounded like a fair idea (he said she was like Hattie Jacques in ''Carry on Matron!). He is not a poor old man, he can afford to buy what he needs and has a perfectly good bed and mattress; he is not incontinent. She decided that he must have a ''topper mattress'' to put on his existing mattress ''in case he got bedsores'' (he has not mentioned any - not confined to bed or wheelchair) and does not spend an inordinate amount of time in bed. He made it abundantly clear more than once that he did not want or need one, but blow me down, guess what, one arrived a few days later. He was out so they left it in the hall. He rang several times to have it taken away, and it was not until his stepson came to visit and spoke to them quite sharply that they eventually took it away. Huge great foam mattress, God only know what it cost!


----------



## Lurcherlad

All these so called “little” wasteful costs add up to a huge amount of money that could be better spent.


----------



## rottieboys

OrientalSlave said:


> Yes it's one unit (presumably you mean one Zimmer frame), but as I have said, the cost of repatriating it might be as much as the cost of a new one once you take storing it and dispensing it to the right person into accounts. When my father went into a nursing home (in the expectation he could return to an independent life) he was 'measured' for a Zimmer frame.
> 
> In my view most of what you are getting cross about shows the costs of underfunding social care. It also leads to bed blocking which apparently will cost the NHS £587 million between the last GE and the next one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lack of social care has led to 2.5 million lost bed days in the NHS between the last Election and this one
> 
> 
> Lack of social care has led to 2.5 million lost bed days in the NHS between the last Election and this one. Over the same period these ‘social care delayed discharges’ have cost the NHS a total of £587 million, or £27,000 each and every hour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ageuk.org.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The issues I have pointed out are ones which apply UK-wise, and over-prescription of anti-biotics is not only costly, it has a further cost as resistant strains of bacteria emerge and have to be treated (if causing problems) with more expensive, and more dangerous, antibiotics.


No, I did n't mean just one Zimmer frame. I meant one unit, meaning my place of working. There must be about 30 Nursing homes, plus independent living for the elderly. Just in one of our borough. Thats without all the other boroughs around. And other disabilities who are living at homes with support from carers. They all add up. Waste is waste. Not peanuts.


----------



## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> All these so called “little” wasteful costs add up to a huge amount of money that could be better spent.


He was so sick of seeing it there that asked me ''if I knew anyone who would like it'' - then his stepson managed to get it taken away.


----------



## O2.0

OrientalSlave said:


> The issues I have pointed out are ones which apply UK-wise, and over-prescription of anti-biotics is not only costly, it has a further cost as resistant strains of bacteria emerge and have to be treated (if causing problems) with more expensive, and more dangerous, antibiotics.


Antibiotic resistance is more related to antibiotics used in the food chain than antibiotics prescribed for human use:








A Review of Antibiotic Use in Food Animals: Perspective, Policy, and Potential


Antibiotic use plays a major role in the emerging public health crisis of antibiotic resistance. Although the majority of antibiotic use occurs in agricultural settings, relatively little attention has been paid to how antibiotic use in farm animals contributes ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Dimwit

No, the NHS is not perfect, and yes there is wastage that goes on, but people on this thread are doing exactly what the government wants them to do - disregard the 12 years of chronic underfunding by the Conservatives and blame the current NHS crisis on them for wasting equipment etc. which is a drop in the ocean...


----------



## OrientalSlave

Dimwit said:


> No, the NHS is not perfect, and yes there is wastage that goes on, but people on this thread are doing exactly what the government wants them to do - disregard the 12 years of chronic underfunding by the Conservatives and blame the current NHS crisis on them for wasting equipment etc. which is a drop in the ocean...


Thanks. I have no idea why you call yourself 'Dimwit'!


----------



## Pawscrossed

Apparently the mini budget that has affected so many was because the government got a big upset about the Queen dying. Jeez… 








Kwasi Kwarteng blames ‘pressure’ of Queen’s death for botched mini-budget


Chancellor also sparks fresh confusion over next financial statement, saying: ‘It’s going to be 23 November’ – despite Treasury briefing it has been brought forward




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pawscrossed

Dimwit said:


> No, the NHS is not perfect, and yes there is wastage that goes on, but people on this thread are doing exactly what the government wants them to do - disregard the 12 years of chronic underfunding by the Conservatives and blame the current NHS crisis on them for wasting equipment etc. which is a drop in the ocean...


The NHS and everyone who works within it, are without question amazing. I cannot imagine any commercial company working under a parent company who wants them to fail but that’s what the Government are effectively doing. That’s utterly demoralising.

(Isn‘t it amazing how Tories always find fault with the small stuff and forget their vote got the NHS here).


----------



## Pawscrossed

rottieboys said:


> Yes, there is a lot of waste in the NHS. Let me give you example. Every time this elderly lady went into hospital, she came home with another zimmer fame. She had five in all, all practically new each one. Nobody wanted to take them. We phoned the hospital up who said just throw them away. The amount of prescription medication on repeat, would just store up in cupboards. Again trying to stop them pilling up was a nightmare with GP. Another lady had ulcerated legs. So boxes of bandaged all new and sealed would be kept in her room. Unfortunately, she died. Contacted the Pharmacy, GP, and District nursing about these dressings which were still seal. There was about 30 in a box. I was told again throw them out. I could go on and on. This in my opinion is just waste.


You know the intimate details of lots of old ladies 🫣 In case you meet any more, hospices take sealed bandages and the Red Cross take walking frames for their Medical Loan departments.


----------



## Arny

Pawscrossed said:


> Apparently the mini budget that has affected so many was because the government got a big upset about the Queen dying. Jeez…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kwasi Kwarteng blames ‘pressure’ of Queen’s death for botched mini-budget
> 
> 
> Chancellor also sparks fresh confusion over next financial statement, saying: ‘It’s going to be 23 November’ – despite Treasury briefing it has been brought forward
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk


Its a wonder he can keep a straight face.


----------



## Lurcherlad

.


Dimwit said:


> No, the NHS is not perfect, and yes there is wastage that goes on, but people on this thread are doing exactly what the government wants them to do - disregard the 12 years of chronic underfunding by the Conservatives and blame the current NHS crisis on them for wasting equipment etc. which is a drop in the ocean...


Tbf not everyone who has commented on the waste within the NHS believes the Tories have done a great job with it … I certainly don’t.


----------



## Deguslave

Arny said:


> Its a wonder he can keep a straight face.


I wonder if they can lie straight in bed. 

Why do I keep having the phrase 'good day to bury bad news' running around my head? Lol.


----------



## Psygon

for anyone that likes a bit of evidence, this is an interesting article myth busting some of the claims leveled at the NHS, including waste and inefficiency. It doesn't tackle some of the things mentioned in this thread around medicines and equipment, but interesting none the less. Interesting to read about how the NHS compares to other organizations across the world on some of these issues. 









Health and social care in England: tackling the myths


The health and care system is under intense pressure and as a result, patient and public satisfaction with services has dropped significantly, prompting discussion about the future of services. In what can feel like a heated political discussion, we have taken five myths that sometimes feature...




www.kingsfund.org.uk


----------



## Psygon

OrientalSlave said:


> They aren't anything like as valuable. How much will it cost to get them back and disinfect them compared with how much they cost?
> 
> Better examples of waste are prescribing OTC medications (aspirin, paracetamol & ibuprofen are examples and cost £142 million), over-prescribing antibiotics (£3.7 million though some patients bully GPs who won't prescribe them), people going to A&E or seeing their GP for things easily treated at home with no medical intervention (£2 billion). It would take a massive, massive pill of unused medicines, bandages and zimmer frames to reach £2 billion.


As far as I know the prescribing of OTC medications has already largely stopped. Where it continues is in instances where you are being given a large quantity which otherwise you wouldn't be able to purchase. 

I had a prescription for OTC pain killers, but I wouldn't be able to get them in one go unless I went back multiple times. Interestingly my consultant prescribed a large number in one go so I didn't have multiple prescription costs .. However, my pharmacist used to sell them to me not at prescription cost as buying them OTC was cheaper . He just destroyed my prescription. Not sure if he was meant to do that mind you.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

So. For what my opinion is worth (not much) I really wonder what the heck is going on in the Conservative Party. Liz has barely been in the job for two minutes (90 seconds of which has been about the death of The Queen) and already there are calls from within the party to get rid of her? I’m pretty sure the process is that she’s gone through rounds of voting by her fellow MPs to get to the party member vote. So for goodness sake give the woman a chance! 

The whole upper tier tax cut was a massive error I think. Everyone has the same cut with the BR cut. I don’t understand much about economics though, I’m the first to admit that.

I’m no fan of the Conservative Party but blimey. Enemies closer and all that…


----------



## Pawscrossed

Liz Truss is on stage today for a 25 minute speech arriving to a 90s classic. I'm thinking "If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next"?


----------



## rottieboys

I don't know if the Conservative party realise what damaged they are doing. I hope all the ones, that is causing this loses their jobs.


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> I don't know if the Conservative party realise what damaged they are doing. I hope all the ones, that is causing this loses their jobs.


While I agree that what's going on is damaging... not sure I agree they should be losing their jobs.

In a lot of cases, MPs are raising these issues because their constituents are raising the issues. They are speaking on behalf of the people they represent... which is surely a good thing, right? I mean the more cynical may look at it and say they are only thinking "I won't be elected again"... which, given the strength of opinion on some of these issues, could be true


----------



## OrientalSlave

Mrs Funkin said:


> So. For what my opinion is worth (not much) I really wonder what the heck is going on in the Conservative Party. Liz has barely been in the job for two minutes (90 seconds of which has been about the death of The Queen) and already there are calls from within the party to get rid of her? I’m pretty sure the process is that she’s gone through rounds of voting by her fellow MPs to get to the party member vote. So for goodness sake give the woman a chance!
> 
> The whole upper tier tax cut was a massive error I think. Everyone has the same cut with the BR cut. I don’t understand much about economics though, I’m the first to admit that.
> 
> I’m no fan of the Conservative Party but blimey. Enemies closer and all that…


The MPs disagreed with the actual Party - the members out in the sticks - about who should be leader. They wanted Rishi. Also, she has purged anyone who supported Sunak from her Cabinet. Hence, the schism. The two electorates disagree on what sort of leader they want. I suspect the MPs are much closer to what the country as a whole wants. It was probably under 0.3% of the electorate who choose between Sunak & Truss. Compared to the population as a whole, that very small electorate is mostly male, older, white, Brexiters, middle-class, and living in the South of England.






Subscribe to read | Financial Times


News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




www.ft.com





And no, I wouldn't give her a chance. But it's not up to me, it's up to the Tory MPs.


----------



## Deguslave

Pawscrossed said:


> Liz Truss is on stage today for a 25 minute speech arriving to a 90s classic. I'm thinking "If You Tolerate This Your Children Will Be Next"?


I think her music should be 'Stand and Deliver' especially the next line 'your money or your life.'


----------



## Psygon

No idea how the polling was done, how they selected the random members of the british public but...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577354989881753602


----------



## Happy Paws2

Psygon said:


> While I agree that what's going on is damaging... not sure I agree they should be losing their jobs.


Well there are two people who should, Chancellor Kwasi Kwarteng and PM Liz Truss the sooner the better, I really wish Penny Mordaunt had won the race for PM.

I never liked BJ he was a fool and a liar but as for LT at the moment words fail me.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I’m just not sure any of this gives the country a chance though? I appreciate that it’s a very small percentage of the electorate that actually voted her in - but is this the answer, to have another vote of no confidence? Another round of voting? I don’t know.

I sadly don’t think Labour have a chance of getting in whilst Starmer is leader. I don’t know what the better option is there though, either. There feels to me to be no real Socialist presence in the LP any longer - but I’m not a member and don’t follow their “up and coming” MPs closely.


----------



## rottieboys

Would n't it be lovely to give a new party a chance. Who is out there who wants the chalice


----------



## Dimwit

Mrs Funkin said:


> So. For what my opinion is worth (not much) I really wonder what the heck is going on in the Conservative Party. Liz has barely been in the job for two minutes (90 seconds of which has been about the death of The Queen) and already there are calls from within the party to get rid of her? I’m pretty sure the process is that she’s gone through rounds of voting by her fellow MPs to get to the party member vote. So for goodness sake give the woman a chance!
> 
> The whole upper tier tax cut was a massive error I think. Everyone has the same cut with the BR cut. I don’t understand much about economics though, I’m the first to admit that.
> 
> I’m no fan of the Conservative Party but blimey. Enemies closer and all that…


The problem is that they Conservative party is in such disarray and they have had so many leadership elections that they are pretty much down to the dregs so are chosing the best of a bad bunch.

I suspect they might have been more willing to give her a chance if the 'mini-budget' had actually been discussed and if she hadn't caused such catastrophic damage to our economy in a breathtaking short space of time...


----------



## Calvine

Liz Truss is already less popular than Boris Johnson ever was | YouGov 

I don't spend much time on this thread but thought this was noteworthy . . . less popular than Boris!


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well I've listened to her and I haven't changed my mind, she's got to go.


----------



## mrs phas




----------



## Deguslave

Well the soundbite they all seem to be applauding is 'growth, growth, growth' but for me the truest words she spoke was 'let's get them removed' - and that should be in reference to the current government, not the protesters.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well Mike Pickering is very cross at the use of Moving On Up. The lyrics are anti-Tory and the song was often used by the Blairite Gang, so it seems a very odd choice.


----------



## Deguslave

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well Mike Pickering is very cross at the use of Moving On Up. The lyrics are anti-Tory and the song was often used by the Blairite Gang, so it seems a very odd choice.


Did they get permission to use the song?


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Mike Pickering said that they had tried to block it legally but couldn't.


----------



## Deguslave

I've just done a quick Google search and apparently M People are 'livid'


----------



## Pawscrossed

Deguslave said:


> I think her music should be 'Stand and Deliver' especially the next line 'your money or your life.'


Good choice!

It was M People 'Moving On Up' 🤮

However... Michael Pickering, who co-wrote the song and founded the group said on Twitter to say the band hadn't given permission tweeting that 'I don’t want my song being a soundtrack to lies.' Labour also used the song but Pickering said they had asked first.

According to the press secretary it had been selected by Truss who was unable to confirm if the party had asked the band for permission. The press secretary had no idea who Pickering was. Truss was also attacked by James Small-Edwards, a Labour councillor and son of M People’s singer, Heather Small who said it 'moving on out' was a very appropriate line. 

This might seem like a small thing but permission to use things is a legal requirement, especially for artists whose image, brand and income can depend on these choices. It's appallingly bad behaviour and more law breaking by the party.


----------



## Pawscrossed

mrs phas said:


> View attachment 578066


Love Brian Bilston's poetry


----------



## Pawscrossed

So along with the Greenpeace protestors, Tolga Alkmen, News Photographer of the Year who has had work published in most papers including FT and was legitimately there, was also thrown out. This is starting to look like fascism. No protest, or one is arrested.


----------



## Calvine

rona said:


> I would not of believed that anyone could say this


 I'm not sure in what context it was said, but fairly sure I read that Mrs Thatcher had made some comment suggesting that if pensioners were cold they should knit themselves a pair of gloves? A bit like ''let them eat cake'. And we all know where she ended up.


rottieboys said:


> Seem like most members are for Labour


Yes indeed - and there are a few inflated egos whose opinion is more important than yours or mine.


----------



## Calvine

huckybuck said:


> I gave up on this thread


Yes, you do have to be very thick-skinned sometimes. But, out of interest, is it my imagination, or have you also noticed that the forum seems very thin on the ground regarding pet threads since the ''upgrade''? It strikes me that only the general (especially political) threads actually keep going for any length of time - even the dreaded Brexit thread has risen like a phoenix from the ashes and that was closed several times because of the in-fighting). I look most days at actual pet threads that I am following, and there has been no activity; no additional posts. And a more than usual number of new members posting a desperate new post and then just disappearing into the sunset.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Yes, you do have to be very thick-skinned sometimes. But, out of interest, is it my imagination, or have you also noticed that the forum seems very thin on the ground regarding pet threads since the ''upgrade''? It strikes me that only the general (especially political) threads actually keep going for any length of time - even the dreaded Brexit thread has risen like a phoenix from the ashes and that was closed several times because of the in-fighting). I look most days at actual pet threads that I am following, and there has been no activity; no additional posts. And a more than usual number of new members posting a desperate new post and then just disappearing into the sunset.


I think there are a lot of people who have gone missing since the update, a lot didn't like it and have left.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Yes, you do have to be very thick-skinned sometimes. But, out of interest, is it my imagination, or have you also noticed that the forum seems very thin on the ground regarding pet threads since the ''upgrade''? It strikes me that only the general (especially political) threads actually keep going for any length of time - even the dreaded Brexit thread has risen like a phoenix from the ashes and that was closed several times because of the in-fighting). I look most days at actual pet threads that I am following, and there has been no activity; no additional posts. And a more than usual number of new members posting a desperate new post and then just disappearing into the sunset.


A lot of people didn't get on with the new forum, especially the layout, advert overload and the two hard-to-read colour schemes (plus other accessibility issues). Myself included - if I wasn't running both a good Adblocker, plus Stylus and the theme that ScrapCat made for it which restores the lovely, easy to read old colour scheme, I wouldn't be here much either.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Jesthar said:


> A lot of people didn't get on with the new forum, especially the layout, advert overload and the two hard-to-read colour schemes (plus other accessibility issues). Myself included - if I wasn't running both a good Adblocker, plus Stylus and the theme that ScrapCat made for it which restores the lovely, easy to read old colour scheme, I wouldn't be here much either.


Yes if OH had not set up a Adblocker on my laptop which works on all sights I would be here either.

I still don't like it very much but I'd miss the people on here if I was to leave.


----------



## Lurcherlad

I don’t mind the new layout, though it bringing up ancient threads on a related subject is a pain and must create work for Mods.

I’m not as active on the forum as I used to be. Mostly due to not having Jack anymore as I spent most of my time in Dog threads.

I’m less inclined to post very often in political threads (or any others that may get contentious) as it’s so easy for it to turn aggy … one has to be so careful how a post is written so it’s not misinterpreted and upsets someone … so I just avoid tbh.

Many times I’ve typed a response then thought better of it and deleted it.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> I think there are a lot of people who have gone missing since the update, a lot didn't like it and have left.


I think you're right; a lot of familiar names have disappeared. Sorry, @Happy Paws2, just spotted your other post: I hope your husband is doing well now? xx


----------



## Pawscrossed

A few people have left because of bad manners on the part of others. We can't blame everything on the new layout, life has been pretty tough.


----------



## Arny

Jesthar said:


> Stylus and the theme that ScrapCat made for it which restores the lovely, easy to read old colour scheme


If it weren’t for it I couldn’t use the forum, I still get tired quickly now but the new bright forum was giving me headaches.

My dad regularly emails our conservative mp to express his annoyance on most things but the email back was interesting.
For once my mp expressed a hint of a personal opinion, usually it’s just spouting the party line. That might not bode well for Truss.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Chancellor has been sacked, when will she go.


----------



## Linda Weasel

And such a mess they’ve left in their wake…..


----------



## Deguslave

I just hope she sees sense and calls a general election.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Deguslave said:


> I just hope she sees sense and calls a general election.


One can always hope.


She was backing all his decisions, so she just as much to blame, she can't say it was all him.


----------



## Psygon

Happy Paws2 said:


> One can always hope.
> 
> 
> She was backing all his decisions, so she just as much to blame, she can't say it was all him.


It feels quite cowardly. They decided this plan together and now Kwasi has gone. I feel sorry for him for taking the fall for a joint decision.


----------



## Cully

Four chancellor's in a year. The whole world must be laughing at us







.


----------



## Blackadder

Deguslave said:


> I just hope she sees sense and calls a general election.


Won't/can't happen... they will get slaughtered! Keir Starmer & Labour will walk into number 10 without having to do anything, all he needs to do is say nothing.


----------



## catz4m8z

Do we even have anybody running the country at the moment? I feel like its just a bunch of headless chickens running around pointing fingers and talking gibberish.

I would have much more respect if one of them actually admitted that things sucked and they were going to be making unpopular decisions. We all know the country/world is currently in a big hole full of poop and we arent diggin our way out of it without getting covered in at least a little bit of ****!


----------



## cheekyscrip

Still waiting for the U turn on 2016…


----------



## kimthecat

Im shocked she sacked Kwasi. They should have stuck with Boris and Rishi. She said she was at the start she was going to be unpopular but was going to stick to her guns but she didnt.


----------



## OrientalSlave

kimthecat said:


> Im shocked she sacked Kwasi. They should have stuck with Boris and Rishi. She said she was at the start she was going to be unpopular but was going to stick to her guns but she didnt.


They could NOT have stuck with Johnson. His lies caught up with him, he became an electoral liability. The Tories started losing elections they should have won.


----------



## kimthecat

Arny said:


> If it weren’t for it I couldn’t use the forum, I still get tired quickly now but the new bright forum was giving me headaches.


Same here.


----------



## kimthecat

OrientalSlave said:


> They could NOT have stuck with Johnson. His lies caught up with him, he became an electoral liability. The Tories started losing elections they should have won.


 You mean local elections ? Yes, that always happens . people want to send a message. I doubt whether the Tories would win another election anyway regardless who is in charge. They've been in a long time and people want a change. 

We are in a right mess now and it needs sorting . Truss is a liability and a disaster and is there was a GE now , Tories would surely lose.
So what next , another leadership battle ? 

I dont vote Tory BTW. I dont know if Keir is capable of leading us out of this mess but better than Corbyn.


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> She said she was at the start she was going to be unpopular but was going to stick to her guns but she didnt.


Yeah, well it seems she said a lot of things that turned out to be not quite the case.

One of the reasons she said she backed Boris till the end was because she was loyal, but obviously that was out the window when she needed a chancellor to hang the blame on. 

She's said that her plan would lead to growth, and that she was going to stick to it. And has dropped a lot of that plan now. 

She said she didn't mind doing things that made her unpopular, and then when it made her unpopular dropped them. 

She said all that was happening wasn't due to the mini budget, and then admitted it was. 

Based on that trajectory she said she wouldn't call a general election... So maybe she will 😂


----------



## kimthecat

@Psygon I just feel beyond caring and for the first time in my life , I feel I wont vote.


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> @Psygon I just feel beyond caring and for the first time in my life , I feel I wont vote.


It is highly depressing watching what's going on, and it does make it feel like what's the point?

It has come to something when I'm sat hoping the Conservatives decide to bring Rishi back. I realize he didn't have the popular vote with the party, and there are definitely questions about tax etc, but basically everything he said would happen has happened. 

I'm amazed he has managed to stay entirely quiet while everything has been unraveling - but if he is sat there thinking maybe he'd get the call to be PM, then it looks better if he's not been on the sideline shouting "I told you so". 

Would it be too little too late? Could he reunite the party? Is he the right person to be PM, assuming no general election? 

What would happen if the Labour Party called a vote of no confidence in the government?


----------



## Linda Weasel

I wanted Rishi anyway.
I’m not a particularly political person (other than locally) but at least he seemed to have a grip on what was going on.

I saw LT on tv this afternoon; she gave the same re-hashed answer to every one of the press corps’ questions, the only difference being that her voice got squeakier the more she was attacked.

Chocolate fire guard….


----------



## Psygon

Linda Weasel said:


> I wanted Rishi anyway.
> I’m not a particularly political person (other than locally) but at least he seemed to have a grip on what was going on.
> 
> I saw LT on tv this afternoon; she gave the same re-hashed answer to every one of the press corps’ questions, the only difference being that her voice got squeakier the more she was attacked.
> 
> Chocolate fire guard….


It was the hesitation when picking someone to ask a question that stood out to me. I wasn't sure if she was trying to find someone who would ask a sympathetic question, or if she was getting more nervous about what was happening.

If the plan was to always only take 4 questions I think it would have looked better if she had been more confident and decisive in selecting who was going to ask a question.


----------



## Linda Weasel

Psygon said:


> It was the hesitation when picking someone to ask a question that stood out to me. I wasn't sure if she was trying to find someone who would ask a sympathetic question, or if she was getting more nervous about what was happening.
> 
> If the plan was to always only take 4 questions I think it would have looked better if she had been more confident and decisive in selecting who was going to ask a question.


I wondered initially if nobody was asking questions because they’d just given up.


----------



## kimthecat

From Twitter tonight 
Susie Dent

@susie_dent

Word of the day is 'rantum-scantum' (17th century): reckless, disorderly, and chaotic.


----------



## Happy Paws2

If it wasn't so painfully serious and it would be funny, 
I'm getting almost hysterical every time I see her, I want to laugh at the thought of what she's going to say about getting out of the mess she's caused.


----------



## rottieboys

I do believe the Government is not being run by Liz Truss. Perhaps it's being run by all the back stabbers within the Tory party. Sack them all, let's have a brand new party. Mind you, I think the media has a lot to do with it. We need a strong leader. I hope she request a general election. Bring it on.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Chancellor has been sacked, when will she go.


Yep - and KK believes his sacking will only buy her a few more weeks and then she will be out. (according to the Guardian). Can Hunt be any worse than KK?


----------



## Deguslave

Well Hunt certainly made an impression when he was the health minister, unfortunately it wasn't a very good one.


----------



## Calvine

Rishi was (obviously) the golden boy when he was dishing out billions in furlough but lost some of his appeal when it had to be paid back! I read recently how much of the furlough money was fraudulently claimed (£5 billion?) which is just terrible but typical of human nature in some cases. Something for nothing. It will never be repaid, either.


----------



## Psygon

Calvine said:


> Rishi was (obviously) the golden boy when he was dishing out billions in furlough but lost some of his appeal when it had to be paid back! I read recently how much of the furlough money was fraudulently claimed (£5 billion?) which is just terrible but typical of human nature in some cases. Something for nothing. It will never be repaid, either.


While I know the fraud was quite high financially, I wonder if that loss is balanced out by the potential impact if the furlough and self employed scheme hadn't existed. 

Both schemes seemed to achieve the original outcomes they were set out to achieve. If they hadn't then I think the UK would be in a very different situation right now in terms of businesses going under, people losing jobs etc. (Although arguably did the fact these schemes exist then cause decision making about coming out of lockdown different - would it have ended sooner maybe? Would other decisions have been different?).

I'm not saying I think it's right not to try and reclaim it, tho I would hope they go after those that deliberately committed fraud rather than people that potentially did it in error. I mean something like 15% of tax returns have errors in, mostly because financial and tax stuff is complicated! I'm also not saying it's right that people deliberately committed fraud btw. I'm just wondering if the £5 billion is an almost acceptable loss to the government? I will admit I've not really read anything about what they're doing about it, and what they've said!


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> Well Hunt certainly made an impression when he was the health minister, unfortunately it wasn't a very good one.


I watched his interview on the BBC this morning. I think, unlike both Truss and Kwarteng, he sounds like a politician. He keeps his tone measured and unemotional, and his expression remains very neutral. He knows how to answer questions in a way that sound like an answer while not saying very much at all.

As a direct comparison to those two it was almost like watching the expert while we've had a couple of people on work experience for the last few weeks.

However, I think that makes me trust him even less 😂


----------



## stuaz

I reckon the appointment of Hunt as Chancellor means he will step in as a caretaker PM. 

A PM and there Chancellor needs to be on the same page and Hunt and Truss are very different in there ideology’s, particularly when trying to put forward changes to laws etc as without the backing of of “number 11“ things won’t happen. 

It could even be argued now that Hunt is our PM in all but name….


----------



## OrientalSlave

stuaz said:


> <snip>
> It could even be argued now that Hunt is our PM in all but name….


Not an original thought...









With Jeremy Hunt as the real prime minister, Rishi Sunak has won | John Rentoul


It is hard to believe the scale of Liz Truss’s U-turn: she has reversed the result of the Conservative leadership election




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## stuaz

OrientalSlave said:


> Not an original thought...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With Jeremy Hunt as the real prime minister, Rishi Sunak has won | John Rentoul
> 
> 
> It is hard to believe the scale of Liz Truss’s U-turn: she has reversed the result of the Conservative leadership election
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk


I can’t read too much as it’s behind a paywall but it makes you wonder if she will carry on and try and weather the storm or bow out.


----------



## OrientalSlave

stuaz said:


> I can’t read too much as it’s behind a paywall but it makes you wonder if she will carry on and try and weather the storm or bow out.


I don't pay but I do log in


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Can Hunt be any worse than KK?


Depends on whether or not he treats the country the same way he treated the NHS. Healthcare staff are famously compassionate, but if Jeremy Hunt were ever to need an operation on the NHS I suspect there would be a very strong temptation to skimp on the anaesthetic...


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> Depends on whether or not he treats the country the same way he treated the NHS. Healthcare staff are famously compassionate, but if Jeremy Hunt were ever to need an operation on the NHS I suspect there would be a very strong temptation to skimp on the anaesthetic...


If ever he needed an operation (or anything else, for that matter) no-one would be skimping on anything as he would be a private patient since, like Rishi, he's a millionaire; so you wonder if either of them is really able to relate to the rest of us when it comes to paying day to day bills and making ends meet - I doubt it. Rishi spoke very convincingly, but he's loaded, and his father-in-law also is one of the top ten richest men in India.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> If ever he needed an operation (or anything else, for that matter) no-one would be skimping on anything as he would be a private patient since, like Rishi, he's a millionaire; so you wonder if either of them is really able to relate to the rest of us when it comes to paying day to day bills and making ends meet - I doubt it. Rishi spoke very convincingly, but he's loaded, and his father-in-law also is one of the top ten richest men in India.


Personally I think it should be the law that MPs and their families may ONLY have treatment on the NHS and may NOT skip the waiting list - they have to enjoy the same delays as everyone else. If they choose to go private, they forfeit their seat with immediate effect. That might focus their minds on making sure the NHS is fit for task...


----------



## Calvine

Well, no - if they all pay to go privately, then they are taking at least some pressure off the overstretched NHS. Saying they have to use the NHS sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face as it will be even more for the NHS to cope with, surel?. My son went to private school, so he didn't cost the education authorities anything; I was saving the country money.


----------



## kimthecat

They should have cancelled the white elephant HS2 rail and spent it on the NHS . It has cost billions.








First phase of HS2 could cost 'many billions' above Government's estimate, leaked report warns


According to a leaked report it was 'very unlikely' that the £40.3 billion target cost for the London to Birmingham section would be met




inews.co.uk





The £40 Billion cost is just for the first phase.


----------



## Arny

kimthecat said:


> They should have cancelled the white elephant HS2 rail and spent it on the NHS . It has cost billions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First phase of HS2 could cost 'many billions' above Government's estimate, leaked report warns
> 
> 
> According to a leaked report it was 'very unlikely' that the £40.3 billion target cost for the London to Birmingham section would be met
> 
> 
> 
> 
> inews.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The £40 Billion cost is just for the first phrase.


And what a joke it is. All to shave a few minutes off an already quick journey under the guise that it would encourage investment in the north (people will just commute south as they already do!)
What was needed was linking up northern cities which has been scrapped since the first phase has cost so much!


----------



## Deguslave

I can get from Newcastle to London, faster than I can get from Newcastle to Manchester by train.


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> Well, no - if they all pay to go privately, then they are taking at least some pressure off the overstretched NHS. Saying they have to use the NHS sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face as it will be even more for the NHS to cope with, surel?. My son went to private school, so he didn't cost the education authorities anything; I was saving the country money.


No, saying they and their families HAVE to use the NHS - and no queue-jumping - means they have a vested interest in actually investing in it properly because they are 100% dependent on it alongside the majority of the country, rather than being able to say "sure, the NHS can do with less of X, I can afford private care."


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> I can get from Newcastle to London, faster than I can get from Newcastle to Manchester by train.


And it's more reliable... Where I work they don't have an office in the north east so I'm partially assigned (I work remotely) to what was perceived as my closest office in Manchester. Tried to explain that London was closer to me from a time perspective.. but that doesn't count apparently!


----------



## Psygon

Jesthar said:


> No, saying they and their families HAVE to use the NHS - and no queue-jumping - means they have a vested interest in actually investing in it properly because they are 100% dependent on it alongside the majority of the country, rather than being able to say "sure, the NHS can do with less of X, I can afford private care."


While I see the point, I think there is also an argument that if MPs have financial interests in private healthcare they shouldn't have a say on things that relate to the future of the NHS. Much as I like to think MPs try and act on behalf of their constituents ... I think if someone could gain financially from less money going to the NHS they shouldn't be able to vote on that. I mean there are quite a few MPs who seem to have shares or second job engagements with private healthcare companies...


----------



## kimthecat

Julian from Ghosts for gets my vote for PM.


----------



## Calvine

Jesthar said:


> No, saying they and their families HAVE to use the NHS - and no queue-jumping - means they have a vested interest in actually investing in it properly because they are 100% dependent on it alongside the majority of the country, rather than being able to say "sure, the NHS can do with less of X, I can afford private care."


We clearly have a different way of looking at it.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Julian from Ghosts for gets my vote for PM.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 578640


Larry the cat gets mine.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Larry the cat gets mine.


He couldn't do any worse than who there now.


----------



## Deguslave

At least Larry the Cat does what he was employed for.


----------



## Calvine

Deguslave said:


> At least Larry the Cat does what he was employed for.


And people trust him!


----------



## Deguslave

Calvine said:


> And people trust him!


Its just a pity he can't tackle the two legged rats running around Downing Street.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Arny said:


> And what a joke it is. All to shave a few minutes off an already quick journey under the guise that it would encourage investment in the north (people will just commute south as they already do!)
> What was needed was linking up northern cities which has been scrapped since the first phase has cost so much!


We need AN HS2, but HS2 as being built is over-specified. The WCML is full to bursting in the south, so just one little thing going wrong can rapidly escalate to massive delays. Also moving passenger traffic to HS2 will free up paths for more rail freight. I also think in 40 years people will take it just as much for granted as we take the railways Victorians bequeathed us.

However I agree rail in the North can be dire. Have you ever caught a train from Sheffield to Leeds? The bus is faster.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I see the new Chancellor is speaking this afternoon on the House of Commons and Liz isn't there.


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> I see the new Chancellor is speaking this afternoon on the House of Commons and Liz isn't there.


She's probably busy packing, or reading the situations vacant column in the papers.


----------



## Happy Paws2

She has finally turned.


----------



## Deguslave

Loved Starmers comment, 'the ladys not for turning - up!'


----------



## Happy Paws2

Now we are worried, he won't guarantee the triple lock on pensions,


----------



## cheekyscrip

That car crashed in 2016. We were cushioned till 2020 then coronavirus was a convenient culprit.
And don’t even go into blaming it on help for Ukraine.


----------



## kimthecat

Deguslave said:


> She's probably busy packing, or reading the situations vacant column in the papers.


She was hiding in the fridge with Boris .


----------



## KittenKong

Hmmm....*







*


----------



## Happy Paws2

I never liked MT or BJ but this women takes it to a new level, she must have the skin of a Rhino.


----------



## kimthecat

I dont get why the Tories are angry at her. They knew what they were getting when they voted her in. 
@Happy Paws2 I expect she is hurting inside. I think this is a case of Becareful of what you want, you might get it.


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> I dont get why the Tories are angry at her. They knew what they were getting when they voted her in.
> @Happy Paws2 I expect she is hurting inside. I think this is a case of Becareful of what you want, you might get it.


I think if you listen to what some of the conservative MPs have said it's not that they think what she did was wrong, it's that she did it all at once without doing any ground work or preparation. It's the same with the market reaction. It all comes down to the speed that she brought the budget in, the extent of the changes, and the lack of any oversight. 

If Liz had set out the same agenda but planned over a number of years - with the priority for the things she won the leadership on - I think the reaction may have been somewhat different.


----------



## Happy Paws2

kimthecat said:


> I dont get why the Tories are angry at her. They knew what they were getting when they voted her in.
> @Happy Paws2 * I expect she is hurting inside.* I think this is a case of Becareful of what you want, you might get it.


I do hope so,

Food and heating bills going up and she 's talking about cancelling the triple lock on pensions, I hope she never sleeps again.


----------



## Boxer123

It looks like the energy price cap could go as well.


----------



## Psygon

Boxer123 said:


> It looks like the energy price cap could go as well.


Well.. it's here for 6 months minimum. And then whatever happens after that is still being figured out. It looks like if support continues it will be more targeted, so I guess it's wait and see what that means. It could mean support only going to people on low incomes, or it could mean support only being provided for a certain amount of energy. 

It's probably a very complex piece of support to figure out... Hopefully spending cuts won't mean the department looking at it and inputting into it doesn't have the skills needed....


----------



## rottieboys

Happy Paws2 said:


> I do hope so,
> 
> Food and heating bills going up and she 's talking about cancelling the triple lock on pensions, I hope she never sleeps again.


Why would you say that , she might be PM but not in charge. Can you not see this.


----------



## Jobeth

Boxer123 said:


> It looks like the energy price cap could go as well.


I think it’s right that they are planning to target the support rather than make it universal. I’d rather not pay the amounts that they are forecasting but could afford to.


----------



## Happy Paws2

rottieboys said:


> Why would you say that , she might be PM but not in charge. Can you not see this.


The Buck Stop Here... as they say and she's PM. If she's not in charge what's the point of her, surely she has the final say on polies.


----------



## Boxer123

Jobeth said:


> I think it’s right that they are planning to target the support rather than make it universal. I’d rather not pay the amounts that they are forecasting but could afford to.


I can’t but don’t qualify for anything. They talk a lot about families in the news apparently no one minds if single people freeze


----------



## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> I can’t but don’t qualify for anything. They talk a lot about families in the news apparently no one minds if single people freeze



Lets face it they don't care about anyone unless they are rich.


----------



## Psygon

Boxer123 said:


> I can’t but don’t qualify for anything. They talk a lot about families in the news apparently no one minds if single people freeze


I think this is what whatever that targeted support looks like it's going to be really complex to work out. Just because someone doesn't qualify for say benefits doesn't mean that they will be able to afford such a high increase in bills. Especially when a lot of people will have seen a big increase in housing costs (rent or mortgage payments).


----------



## rottieboys

Well, it won't be long before the G E. We will all be in the money once Labour gets in. Just think, How much extra money the pensioner will get.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Another thing.... Older people and the disabled spend most of their time at home, some can't go out at all and others live totally on their own, they need their heating and food to keep warm, they need to have the TV on for company, cutting the triple lock and benefits is cruel. Why should someone in the seventies and eighties have to sit wrapped up in blankets and drinking soup to keep warm.


----------



## Jobeth

Psygon said:


> I think this is what whatever that targeted support looks like it's going to be really complex to work out. Just because someone doesn't qualify for say benefits doesn't mean that they will be able to afford such a high increase in bills. Especially when a lot of people will have seen a big increase in housing costs (rent or mortgage payments).


I agree it will be complicated but those that need to choose between heating and eating/housing should always come first. If they carry on with it being universal then we’ll end up paying even more for it in a different way. They are going to need to get the money back somehow.


----------



## JoanneF

Happy Paws2 said:


> Older people and the disabled spend most of their time at home, some can't go out at all and others live totally on their own, they need their heating and food to keep warm



Am I right in thinking though that everyone will get the £400 energy discount through credits to their bills or similar, plus pensioners will get £500 or £600 per *household* (depending on age) - or per *person* (for couples) if you are on certain benefits? So for pensioners that's £900 to £ £1600?





__





Winter Fuel Payment


Winter Fuel Payment helps older people with their heating bills - claim form, how much you get, eligibility




www.gov.uk


----------



## Happy Paws2

JoanneF said:


> Am I right in thinking though that everyone will get the £400 energy discount through credits to their bills or similar, plus pensioners will get £500 or £600 per *household* (depending on age) - or per *person* if you are on certain benefits? So for pensioners that's £900 to £ £1600?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Winter Fuel Payment
> 
> 
> Winter Fuel Payment helps older people with their heating bills - claim form, how much you get, eligibility
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gov.uk



Yes you are right, but it's the triple lock on next years pension that will affect us.


----------



## Happy Paws2

PM question time is just about to start, should be interesting.


----------



## JoanneF

Happy Paws2 said:


> Yes you are right, but it's the triple lock on next years pension that will affect us.


True. But the pensions were going up by 2.5 - 5.2% in the last 10 years _with_ the triple lock system (2.5%, rate of inflation or average earnings increase, whichever is higher).

As I understod it, it was going to be a double lock (2.5% or rate of inflation). I just read an article that inflation has gone up by about 10%.

And I've just heard the PM saying the triple lock is remaining.

So either double or triple lock would see a larger increase than for many years.


----------



## Happy Paws2

JoanneF said:


> True. But the pensions were going up by 2.5 - 5.2% in the last 10 years _with_ the triple lock system (2.5%, rate of inflation or average earnings increase, whichever is higher).
> 
> As I understod it, it was going to be a double lock (2.5% or rate of inflation). I just read an article that inflation has gone up by about 10%.
> 
> And I've just heard the PM saying the triple lock is remaining.
> 
> So either double or triple lock would see a larger increase than for many years.



Yes I heard her say twice the triple lock is staying, so another u-turn. Lets hope her chancellor is on the same page as her.


----------



## SbanR

JoanneF said:


> And I've just heard the PM saying the triple lock is remaining.


She might Say it, but can we really trust her to keep to her word?


----------



## JoanneF

SbanR said:


> She might Say it, but can we really trust her to keep to her word?


Maybe not. But if she doesn't, the double lock would still raise the pensions by about 10% I believe.


----------



## Jesthar

Psygon said:


> I think if you listen to what some of the conservative MPs have said it's not that they think what she did was wrong, it's that she did it all at once without doing any ground work or preparation. It's the same with the market reaction. It all comes down to the speed that she brought the budget in, the extent of the changes, and the lack of any oversight.
> 
> If Liz had set out the same agenda but planned over a number of years - with the priority for the things she won the leadership on - I think the reaction may have been somewhat different.


And as a side effect, now the world and his dog know that a fair chunk of these plans are intended to benefit the rich at the expense of the less well off, so their chance of introducing them quietly over a number of years and hoping no-one would notice just took a bit of a nosedive. Oops!


----------



## kimthecat

It appears an MP Graham Brady had demanded a vote of no confidence in the Prime minister.


----------



## kimthecat

and according to Twitter a survey shows that Liz Truss is less popular than Prince Andrew Blimey !!

Suella Braverman has either been sacked or she has resigned. 

My head is spinnig . I cant keep up with it all.


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> and according to Twitter a survey shows that Liz Truss is less popular than Prince Andrew Blimey !!
> 
> Suella Braverman has either been sacked or she has resigned.
> 
> My head is spinnig . I cant keep up with it all.


Resigned. With quite a stinging resignation letter.


----------



## 3dogs2cats

kimthecat said:


> and according to Twitter a survey shows that Liz Truss is less popular than Prince Andrew Blimey !!
> 
> Suella Braverman has either been sacked or she has resigned.
> 
> My head is spinnig . I cant keep up with it all.


She has resigned due to breaching code by using her own phone to send emails but also in her letter she is unhappy with the direction the government is taking. I imagine she wishes to disassociate herself as she knows Truss is on very borrowed time!


----------



## Jesthar

kimthecat said:


> and according to Twitter a survey shows that Liz Truss is less popular than Prince Andrew Blimey !!
> 
> Suella Braverman has either been sacked or she has resigned.
> 
> My head is spinnig . I cant keep up with it all.


BBC are reporting it as over a breach of security policy. Truss/Conservative leadership in general gets it with both barrels several times over in the resignation letter, though.


----------



## rottieboys

We should have a G E. Get rid of them all. So we got Grant Shapps. now. Nothing going to happen about anythings. We need a new party.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Rumours say that the tory chief whip has resigned.


----------



## kimthecat

I was against another GE but thinking it might be good idea. Whatever happened to keep calm and carry on. They're like headless chickens ,


----------



## Boxer123

kimthecat said:


> I was against another GE but thinking it might be good idea. Whatever happened to keep calm and carry on. They're like headless chickens ,


I can’t see them calling one as they will be destroyed. Liz Truss just looks like a rabbit in the headlights.


----------



## kimthecat

Wendy Morton Chief Whip has resigned. This party is playing musical chairs.


----------



## Blackadder

I'm not a political person at all but I have to say that a GE is the only way forward. I don't see that the conservatives can carry on, it's a complete shambles. I don't have any faith in Labour either but, really, can they do any worse?
All headless chickens!!


----------



## Boxer123

Blackadder said:


> I'm not a political person at all but I have to say that a GE is the only way forward. I don't see that the conservatives can carry on, it's a complete shambles. I don't have any faith in Labour either but, really, can they do any worse?
> All headless chickens!!


I’m not sure about Starmer as PM but he’s made some cracking one liners this week.


----------



## Deguslave

I too think a general election is the only way forward. People are getting so tired of this incompetent shower.

Can the last person in government, please turn out the light when you leave.


----------



## Pawscrossed

The Daily Star lettuce v Liz Truss now has tofu


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> I too think a general election is the only way forward. People are getting so tired of this incompetent shower.
> 
> Can the last person in government, please turn out the light when you leave.


It's just getting absolutely ridiculous. There was an interview with a conservative MP, Charles walker, on BBC news website. I think he's just said what a lot of people have been thinking.

I don't think it really matters right now if people think Kier Starmer may be a weaker leader, there is no way he can be worse then this mockery of a government we have.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Happy Paws2 said:


> Rumours say that the tory chief whip has resigned.


Yes … or Liz didn’t vote on fracking? I‘ve lost track, which isn‘t good, we are all meant to know what our government are doing. And themselves too.

Charles Walker’s interview is incredibly damming on BBC but also frightening observation about the mess. Surely there has to be a review of rules in parliament to prevent this happening, and to force a General Election.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Boxer123 said:


> I can’t but don’t qualify for anything. They talk a lot about families in the news apparently no one minds if single people freeze


Yes, I noticed this. Single people vote but they appear to have forgotten.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Well I'm thankful that Suella Braverman has resigned for she was, quite frankly, terrifying. 

As for the rest of it? Blimey. I don't see any way forward besides a GE.


----------



## Deguslave

Pawscrossed said:


> Yes, I noticed this. Single people vote but they appear to have forgotten.


Single people are always forgotten. The language used is always 'families.' What if you don't have one?


----------



## Pawscrossed

Deguslave said:


> Single people are always forgotten. The language used is always 'families.' What if you don't have one?


Yes, so much more at risk with nobody to help with bills and it only gets worse with ageing alone.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Mrs Funkin said:


> Well I'm thankful that Suella Braverman has resigned for she was, quite frankly, terrifying.
> 
> As for the rest of it? Blimey. I don't see any way forward besides a GE.


She made me very pleased to eat tofu and be woke.

The Night of the Short Planks.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Krishnan from Channel 4 speaking for many… you will have to look it up. An old English word for a glorious body part now used as an offensive term, especially in relation to Steve Baker MP. Ahem. Apologies sent and received on Twitter.


----------



## Pawscrossed

So I think Starmer threw a political grenade by forcing Conservative MPs go against their own vote. If the vote had been for Labour then he could ban fracking but he’s forced their hand. He’s played them. But the sight of MPs being dragged to the ‘No’ lobby is extraordinary. It doesn’t seem legal though or democratic. Truss has lost her own whip.


----------



## kimthecat

The Tories got rid of Boris because they believed he would lose the next election even though one wasn't due. Now they have Truss and the public demanding another election and a good chance of losing it.


----------



## Jesthar

And now they're saying the Chief and Deputy whips have NOT resigned...

Seriously, this lot couldn't organise a booze-up in a brewery, let alone a country!


----------



## Happy Paws2

You have to feel for MP's who feel betrayed.... 









'I've had enough of talentless people' - Charles Walker


The veteran politician spoke candidly with the BBC about his frustrations with the government.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Cleo38

Wow!!! So she's going .... what a bloody sh*t show this is


----------



## Deguslave

Untrustworthy has gone!

But no general election! This is just getting so stupid now, I can just feel the anger against this government building.

When, just when, are they going to ask the country?


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> and according to Twitter a survey shows that Liz Truss is less popular than Prince Andrew Blimey !!
> 
> Suella Braverman has either been sacked or she has resigned.
> 
> My head is spinnig . I cant keep up with it all.


You know you have hit rock bottom when your name is even mentioned in the same breath as Andrew! She'll be unemployable after this, surely .


----------



## Psygon

Cleo38 said:


> Wow!!! So she's going .... what a bloody sh*t show this is


On the plus side... the lettuce won!!!!


----------



## Magyarmum

Liz Truss has just resigned!


----------



## Pawscrossed

Psygon said:


> On the plus side... the lettuce won!!!!


I was just about to post the same.

Yay for Lettuce and Tofu.


----------



## Cleo38




----------



## Happy Paws2

Magyarmum said:


> Liz Truss has just resigned!


Now we start all over again.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Happy Paws2 said:


> You have to feel for MP's who feel betrayed....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'I've had enough of talentless people' - Charles Walker
> 
> 
> The veteran politician spoke candidly with the BBC about his frustrations with the government.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.co.uk


And those who voted them in two years ago (it feels like so much more).


----------



## Pawscrossed

At what point does a General Election happen? Can it? Surely this is no confidence in the Government? If they're getting to the point where the Tories are rumoured to want Boris Johnson back that's breaking some sort of law? It makes us look like fools abroad and destabilises any credibility the UK had left.


----------



## Happy Paws2

It's amazing the damage she did in just 44 days.

We should now have a General Election.


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> It's amazing the damage she did in just 44 days.
> 
> We should now have a General Election.


Less than 44 days, the country was in national mourning for almost two weeks, and during that time, government was effectively suspended.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Larry should be getting ready to take over.


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> Larry should be getting ready to take over.


I'd vote for Larry.


----------



## Jesthar

My, but I wish The Last Leg hadn't finished it's series a few weeks back. They'd have a field day with all this!


----------



## Deguslave

Well its probably made King Charles's day, lol.


----------



## Cully

Anyone willing to wager a bet on the next PM? At this rate it could become a national sport.


----------



## Deguslave

According to the reports, the smart money is on Richie.


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> According to the reports, the smart money is on Richie.


Surely it has to be Rishi. He came second, he had a lot of support within the party, and he correctly predicted what would happen if Liz did what she did. 

Whether he has the support of the country at the moment is questionable, but he just needs to be able to unify the party. He can then convince the country he's right in the run-up to the GE...

(should say my preference is for a GE, because I'm not sure the conservatives can honestly say they deserve to stay in power without asking the public for their opinion)


----------



## kimthecat

Cleo38 said:


> View attachment 578771


 Im wetting myself here , Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> Larry should be getting ready to take over.


He would do a better job,


----------



## SbanR

Psygon said:


> he just needs to be able to unify the party.


How can he when it's said that Boris' supporters are against him.


----------



## Deguslave

Larry's election promises;

Free cat trees for all house cats
Extra fishy treats for pussycats on reduced income
Catnip dependency support
No vet visits unless you are taken in a gilded carriage and handfed smoked salmon en route
A total ban on all disrespectful slaves who just don't understand pussycat.


----------



## Deguslave

That should be handfed smoked salmon, but flippin autocorrect doesn't like It, lol.


----------



## Boxer123

I’m cringing for her this is so embarrassing.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Liz Truss is entitled to £115 from the tax payer each year apparently for 44 days in the job. That is the final insult isn't it? What other job allows you screw it up, fail on the brief and get paid a fee for life? Oh yes, 'Prince' Andrew.


----------



## Cleo38

kimthecat said:


> Im wetting myself here , Thanks for the laugh.


I know it's such a sh*t show & all this is not good for our economy which will then have a bad impact on all of us .... but I have to laugh at all the memes that are popping up on social media


----------



## Pawscrossed

I truly think that if they called a General Election they might just scrape back a bit of credibility. It's an admission of wrong doing over making excuses which is what politicians do well at especially the Tory party, although others have previous too.

The laws of parliament have to change - it feels like being an MP is a job that people take for the money not because they're a decent human being. Seems to take a 'type' to be in cabinet (of any party). The scenes in the 'no lobby' would have anyone one of us sacked or arrested - you'd have a word with yourself for that sort of behaviour. Those silly, historic rules elevates them over the rest of us and it's almost like a cult like a Freemasons Lodge which we're not meant to understand.

On the upside, I had no idea there was a 1922 committee until this government, it's educational...


----------



## Deguslave

I love the comments on this piece. Keir Starmer leads calls for immediate general election


----------



## Lurcherlad

They don’t have to call a GE, according to the current rules, and they know it would allow Labour in if they did.

BTW Gordon Brown didn’t call a GE when he stepped up and took over from Blair in 2007 … so he wasn’t elected by the people either. He waited until March 2010 … just 2 months earlier than he had to anyway.


----------



## Psygon

Lurcherlad said:


> They don’t have to call a GE, according to the current rules, and they know it would allow Labour in if they did.
> 
> BTW Gordon Brown didn’t call a GE when he stepped up and took over from Blair in 2007 … so he wasn’t elected by the people either. He waited until March 2010 … just 2 months earlier than he had to anyway.


I guess the main argument is always that we don't elect the PM anyway. We elect the party, and they pick the leader. Or at least that's how it's meant to work. Obviously what's happened with the conservatives has shown that people think they are electing the PM, which perhaps shows how the system isn't particularly clear. I mean a lot of people have said they voted for Boris.

I guess the difference with Blair and Brown is that at least we just had Brown and not another change five weeks in to Gordon Browns time in charge.


----------



## kimthecat

How will they choose a new PM .? Im guessing they'll just go Dip Dip , Dog sh*t, you are not it .😅


----------



## Deguslave

They could just draw straws? Or have a game of hopscotch? Or maybe a game of tick-your-it?

It would fit in with the playground mentality of this sorry lot.


----------



## mrs phas

kimthecat said:


> How will they choose a new PM .? Im guessing they'll just go Dip Dip , Dog sh*t, you are not it .😅


Rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock?


----------



## rottieboys

Bring Boris back.


----------



## lullabydream

Jedward tweeted... We lasted longer on XFactor as Liz Truss as prime minister 

It comes to something when Jedward actually post something, when they are Irish...I know nothing about them but presumed apart from panto season they live in Ireland.


----------



## Lurcherlad

Is this bloke still around?

























😂


----------



## lullabydream

I like this article, although stupid it has some good points 


https://www.popbuzz.com/internet/viral/liz-truss-memes-prime-minister-lasted-longer/



I especially like this sentiment
next shortest-serving Prime Minister, you'd have to go back to 1827, when George Canning died of tuberculosis after serving 119 days in office.

You can get antibiotics for that now but, sadly for Truss, there are still no antibiotics for being terrible at your job.


----------



## mrs phas

Lurcherlad said:


> Is this bloke still around?
> 
> View attachment 578778
> 
> View attachment 578776
> 
> View attachment 578777
> 
> 😂


Some points, in that manifesto, aren't as mad as they first may seem


----------



## Psygon

rottieboys said:


> Bring Boris back.


I don't think Boris would be the unity candidate they need (tho not sure anyone is a unity candidate). 

All those MPs that stood down and resigned due to his behavior would surely have to resign again if he came back. I mean he won't have changed in a few months ... One MP has already said they would defect to Labour if Boris came back.


----------



## lullabydream

Lurcherlad said:


> Is this bloke still around?
> 
> View attachment 578778
> 
> View attachment 578776
> 
> View attachment 578777
> 
> 😂


I hope he is, hes got some amazing points!


----------



## Pawscrossed

If Boris stands, he's more morally bankrupt that I ever thought possible


----------



## Pawscrossed

My kind of guy.




Lurcherlad said:


> Is this bloke still around?
> 
> View attachment 578778
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 578776
> 
> View attachment 578777
> 
> 😂


----------



## Cleo38

@kimthecat .....


----------



## Sarah H

No sensible Tory will back Boris as he's going to be hung out to dry by the Partygate enquiry lot. Lying to the govt isn't a good look (not to mention he's a vile human being who needs to be punished for having 'a few drinks' while us plebs couldn't visit dying relatives). P!ss off the lot of them and let the people vote for who they want in charge.


----------



## kimthecat

Lurcherlad said:


> Is this bloke still around?
> 
> View attachment 578778
> 
> View attachment 578776
> 
> View attachment 578777
> 
> 😂


Yes Im hoping he will replace our MP Boris
😅

Also his cousin Count Binface, he failed to oust Boris though he did get votes.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Pawscrossed said:


> Liz Truss is entitled to £115 from the tax payer each year apparently for 44 days in the job. That is the final insult isn't it? What other job allows you screw it up, fail on the brief and get paid a fee for life? Oh yes, 'Prince' Andrew.


£115K a year for the rest of her life! Yes. One hundred and fifteen THOUSAND pounds. Every year. For 44 days of being PM.

That is a blooming disgrace. An absolute insult. Five times per year what I earn, as a (albeit part time) very experienced midwife. 

PPpfffttt.


----------



## Psygon

Mrs Funkin said:


> £115K a year for the rest of her life! Yes. One hundred and fifteen THOUSAND pounds. Every year. For 44 days of being PM.
> 
> That is a blooming disgrace. An absolute insult. Five times per year what I earn, as a (albeit part time) very experienced midwife.
> 
> PPpfffttt.


Well, I’m sure most people will know I’m not one to defend a Tory. However, the news on this hasn’t fully covered what that allowance is for. 

Firstly it’s the maximum that can be claimed, it’s not a guaranteed amount.

Secondly it’s not an income, it’s meant to cover the costs for running the office of an ex-pm. Which may include stuff like paying for police protection at an event, paying office staff and a few other things. All of it has to be claimed and accounted for like other MP expenses (aware that we all know the trustworthyness of mp expenses heh). But anyway, she will not receive money into her bank account. It’s not money for her.

The third thing is that it gets reduced (I think) if she accepts another role. Not sure of the ins and outs of this, so not sure what counts as another role. 

I suppose when these things were created no one foresaw a time when someone would be forced to resign so early in their tenure…

Maybe they will adjust the rules now…


----------



## Lurcherlad

Mrs Funkin said:


> £115K a year for the rest of her life! Yes. One hundred and fifteen THOUSAND pounds. Every year. For 44 days of being PM.
> 
> That is a blooming disgrace. An absolute insult. Five times per year what I earn, as a (albeit part time) very experienced midwife.
> 
> PPpfffttt.


That is ludicrous!!! 🤬

No wonder she was so keen despite being wholly inadequate for the job … nice little earner for a bit of public shame 🙄


----------



## TonyG




----------



## kimthecat

TonyG said:


> View attachment 578795


:

Up against Larry is .....


----------



## Calvine

Deguslave said:


> She's probably busy packing, or reading the situations vacant column in the papers.


I imagine she is unemployable by now. Though to be honest, I do feel sorry for her two daughters - they must be hearing all sorts of jibes about their mother, especially so soon after the papers managed to dig up the affair she had some years back with a married MP whose wife divorced him as a result. At least it's half-term next week, I think.


----------



## Deguslave

I'd say she could write her memoirs, but it would be more of a pamphlet than a book.



Calvine said:


> I imagine she is unemployable by now. Though to be honest, I do feel sorry for her two daughters - they must be hearing all sorts of jibes about their mother, especially so soon after the papers managed to dig up the affair she had some years back with a married MP whose wife divorced him as a result. At least it's half-term next week, I think.


----------



## HarlequinCat

Pawscrossed said:


> Yes, I noticed this. Single people vote but they appear to have forgotten.


It's not just single people, there are couples that don't have children and never will, and they are forgotten about too. Not every childless couple are well off or comfortable


----------



## Boxer123

HarlequinCat said:


> It's not just single people, there are couples that don't have children and never will, and they are forgotten about too. Not every childless couple are well off or comfortable


I think what I was trying to say badly is the use of the word families in the media. I agree the most needy should get the most help but it’s scary that most people are struggling now. On paper I’m on a good wage. I can feel things getting tighter and tighter.


----------



## Pawscrossed

HarlequinCat said:


> It's not just single people, there are couples that don't have children and never will, and they are forgotten about too. Not every childless couple are well off or comfortable


I agree, I do not have children and know many who do not and we are consistently forgotten or assumed to have 'saved' money when we're working flat out to pay bills that others may share or have assistance. @MollySmith also spoke about this a lot. I think she mentioned some campaign and support groups.

_- for transparency I have step children but I'm not making any demands on them or my partner as they do not live with me and they have enough issues with their mother/ex-wife._


----------



## Pawscrossed

Boxer123 said:


> I think what I was trying to say badly is the use of the word families in the media. I agree the most needy should get the most help but it’s scary that most people are struggling now. On paper I’m on a good wage. I can feel things getting tighter and tighter.


Same. goodness knows when I'll ever retire. I am sorry, it's so awful to be kicked down isn't it?


----------



## Boxer123

Pawscrossed said:


> Same. goodness knows when I'll ever retire. I am sorry, it's so awful to be kicked down isn't it?


I don’t think I’ll ever retire at this rate. I gave up working two jobs a few years ago now I think I might have to do that again. I’m no where near as hard up as some people and am grateful. I’m just so angry and frustrated with this government.


----------



## Psygon

Boxer123 said:


> I think what I was trying to say badly is the use of the word families in the media. I agree the most needy should get the most help but it’s scary that most people are struggling now. On paper I’m on a good wage. I can feel things getting tighter and tighter.


I think it would be better if they just said people. Not families are struggling, or households are struggling, but people are struggling. 

Families and households just sound weirdly detached to me. Not sure why. Maybe it's because as you and others have said not everyone is in a family, households can have a whole host of different contexts. People just seems simpler and more accurate.


----------



## tristy

rottieboys said:


> Bring Boris back.


Is that's the bloke who is under investigation ? 😱


----------



## Deguslave

Psygon said:


> I think it would be better if they just said people. Not families are struggling, or households are struggling, but people are struggling.
> 
> Families and households just sound weirdly detached to me. Not sure why. Maybe it's because as you and others have said not everyone is in a family, households can have a whole host of different contexts. People just seems simpler and more accurate.


But if they refer to people as people instead of families or households, it humanises the subject matter and the government don't like doing that.

Its the same as when council offices refer to people as either customers or service users, it demotes a person/human being to a unit.

All government offices prefer to deal with non feeling, soulless units, they really don't like people because people answer back.


----------



## Psygon

Deguslave said:


> But if they refer to people as people instead of families or households, it humanises the subject matter and the government don't like doing that.
> 
> Its the same as when council offices refer to people as either customers or service users, it demotes a person/human being to a unit.
> 
> All government offices prefer to deal with non feeling, soulless units, they really don't like people because people answer back.


There is actually a reason why people are refered to as service users. And it's not always negative.

It's normally instead of calling them customers. Public services don't have customers, because people don't have a choice to use a public service. So its about being more understanding of that fact and it's better to call them users rather than customers. It frustrates me massively when organisations such as DWP refer to customer service, because people who are in Universal Credit are not customers. They can't go and get universal credit from somewhere else. They don't have a choice.

The work I do is traditionally called user centred design, although there has been a shift in the last couple of years within government to either person-centerd design or human centred design.


----------



## kimthecat

Boris , Rishi or Penny.  Place your bets .


----------



## Deguslave

kimthecat said:


> Boris , Rishi or Penny.  Place your bets .


None of the Above!


----------



## Pawscrossed

kimthecat said:


> Boris , Rishi or Penny.  Place your bets .


General Election!


----------



## Pawscrossed

Is Boris offically standing? All I have read is a some deluded idiots who see nothing wrong with him still being investigated by police, wanting him back, and no comment from him yet?


----------



## Sarah H

Pawscrossed said:


> Is Boris offically standing? All I have read is a some deluded idiots who see nothing wrong with him still being investigated by police, wanting him back, and no comment from him yet?


He'd have to come back from his holiday in the Caribbean poor bloke. How many holidays is that this year? He can feck off. Especially as he'll hopefully be charged by the Partygate enquiry for lying to the government on multiple occasions (not to mention the public of course because we don't matter so much.)


----------



## Snoringbear

I did previously comment that the choice between Sunak and Truss was like choosing which leg to be broken. I'd like to readdress that. Truss was essentially like having both legs broken. Time for a general election. Time to get rid of this shit show. Anyone thinking they should stay on, or worse still put BoJo back in, is a moron.


----------



## Jesthar

Sarah H said:


> He'd have to come back from his holiday in the Caribbean poor bloke. How many holidays is that this year? He can feck off. Especially as he'll hopefully be charged by the Partygate enquiry for lying to the government on multiple occasions (not to mention the public of course because we don't matter so much.)


Bad news is BoZo is flying back home right now. If he does run, then A) he's got one HECK of a nerve, and B) how on Earth are the tories going to put a positive spin on THAT? "Sorry, guys - the best we can do for the country is a lying, cheating charlatan we only just kicked out for bringing us into disrepute a few times too many..."


----------



## Deguslave

This, essentially, sums up why he's such a bad bet for PM.



https://uk.yahoo.com/news/the-big-mistake-everyone-is-making-about-boris-johnson-155842660.html


----------



## rottieboys

tristy said:


> Is that's the bloke who is under investigation ? 😱


The same bloke who got a fine, as so did Rishi Sunak. It is going to be the biggest stitch up anyway.


----------



## rottieboys

Snoringbear said:


> I did previously comment that the choice between Sunak and Truss was like choosing which leg to be broken. I'd like to readdress that. Truss was essentially like having both legs broken. Time for a general election. Time to get rid of this shit show. Anyone thinking they should stay on, or worse still put BoJo back in, is a moron.


I agree with you. They took no notice of the Conservative members. They are going to make sure Rishi Sunak gets into No 10. G.E now.


----------



## Happy Paws2

BJ are they crazy..

I don't know how he'd have the nerve to stand.


----------



## Deguslave

Happy Paws2 said:


> BJ are they crazy..
> 
> I don't know how he'd have the nerve to stand.


He has the skin of a rhino, and narcissists don't have any shame.


----------



## Pawscrossed

It’s not Boris that’s the problem. It’s his supporters who don’t care about his crimes, or the people who live under this regime of corruption.

Apparently he said something to some Sir James Duddly (who?!) along the lines of ‘Dudders, I’ve got this, I’m flying back in’ … it’s like something from the past, as if he’s some superhero, not a man under investigation from the standards committee. There are so many people talking about riots, nothing yet. If there is, I will.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Sarah H said:


> He'd have to come back from his holiday in the Caribbean poor bloke. How many holidays is that this year? He can feck off. Especially as he'll hopefully be charged by the Partygate enquiry for lying to the government on multiple occasions (not to mention the public of course because we don't matter so much.)


He is meant to be in Parliament. 7,000 tracking his plane back to UK should be asking why he wasn’t in Westminster where he’s paid to work.


----------



## Calvine

Deguslave said:


> I'd say she could write her memoirs, but it would be more of a pamphlet than a book.


But that's the thing with most of them who might ''put themselves forward'' - they really have no ''track record'' we can judge them by (not that it's up to us to choose the next PM). Liz Truss I had heard of only vaguely before she was catapulted to faaame (or infamy). Likewise Suella B (although I kind of like the look of her, the name Suella reminds me of Sue Ellen, JR's hapless alcoholic wife in ''Dallas'' who blinked and blubbed her way through hundreds of episodes in the 80s). Penny Mordaunt - never heard of before the BJ pantomime. Never heard owt much about Ben Wallace, either.
Some of the papers are referring to BJ as ''Bouncing Boris'' which I think is a really good 'nom de guerre'' for him. It sounds like the sort of toy that might be at the top of every child's Christmas list (sorry, we've sold out of the ''Bouncing Boris'' - have you tried Hamley's?).
I actually think BJ has the chutzpah to put himself forward - but probably only if he knows he is in with a real fighting chance - he's not thick. 
Watch this space, as the saying goes.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Deguslave said:


> He has the skin of a rhino, and narcissists don't have any shame.


Very true




Pawscrossed said:


> *He is meant to be in Parliament*. 7,000 tracking his plane back to UK should be asking why he wasn’t in Westminster where he’s paid to work.


He hasn't been there near since he resigned.


----------



## Arny

It’s like some sort of nightmare. 
We can’t really have gone through all this just to get Johnson back.
Maybe we should have his brother, certainly has more morals.


Calvine said:


> Likewise Suella B (although I kind of like the look of her, the name Suella reminds me of Sue Ellen, JR's hapless alcoholic wife in ''Dallas'' who blinked and blubbed her way through hundreds of episodes in the 80s).


She was named Sue Ellen after Dallas, her teachers changed it apparently.


----------



## cheekyscrip

BJ would be admission Tories up there have no morals whatsoever to bring back someone who broke law and is under investigation.
Shame really if they have no better choice.
So what it will be : Larry or Lettuce?
My vote goes with the cat …


----------



## Happy Paws2

I think tory MP's are trying keep their seat and not the state country, that's why I think they'll vote for BJ.


----------



## Calvine

Arny said:


> It’s like some sort of nightmare.
> We can’t really have gone through all this just to get Johnson back.
> Maybe we should have his brother, certainly has more morals .


Like a Coleridge poem (he was an opium addict).


----------



## Kaily




----------



## Boxer123

Kaily said:


>


That’s made me laugh!


----------



## Jesthar

Calvine said:


> the name Suella reminds me of Sue Ellen, JR's hapless alcoholic wife in ''Dallas'' who blinked and blubbed her way through hundreds of episodes in the 80s


From one whinging alcoholic to a tory party that seems to be full of them...


----------



## kimthecat

Arny said:


> It’s like some sort of nightmare.
> We can’t really have gone through all this just to get Johnson back.
> Maybe we should have his brother, certainly has more morals.


Yes indeed, his brother is a decent bloke .


----------



## Annealise

Mrs Funkin said:


> £115K a year for the rest of her life! Yes. One hundred and fifteen THOUSAND pounds. Every year. For 44 days of being PM.
> 
> That is a blooming disgrace. An absolute insult. Five times per year what I earn, as a (albeit part time) very experienced midwife.
> 
> PPpfffttt.


It sticks in my throat that someone who tanked the pound and trashed the economy in a matter of 44 days and then did a runner, gets away with a big chunk of tax payers money of £115,000 a year pay off for the rest of her life!!!!


----------



## Psygon

Annealise said:


> It sticks in my throat that someone who tanked the pound and trashed the economy in a matter of 44 days and then did a runner, gets away with a big chunk of tax payers money of £115,000 a year pay off for the rest of her life!!!!


The press have been very misleading. Kier Starmer, who joined calls for her not to get it has been misleading too. 

It’s not a payoff to her for the rest of her life. It is not an income for her. The allowance is not paid to support private or parliamentary duties.

“ Former Prime Ministers or their staff may only be reimbursed for legitimate salary or office expenses incurred in meeting the demands of the former Prime Minister’s public life up to the annual limit.”

You can read what the allowance is here: Public Duty Costs Allowance guidance

Given how short her time in office was, I really doubt she will even be able to claim the upper limit of this allowance. I mean it’s used for things like police protection when she has to go and speak at an event. But who would invite her? It’s also used to run an office to deal with all the enquiries a former PM gets. But again… who is going to be getting in touch?


----------



## Annealise

Psygon said:


> The press have been very misleading. Kier Starmer, who joined calls for her not to get it has been misleading too.
> 
> It’s not a payoff to her for the rest of her life. It is not an income for her. The allowance is not paid to support private or parliamentary duties.
> 
> “ Former Prime Ministers or their staff may only be reimbursed for legitimate salary or office expenses incurred in meeting the demands of the former Prime Minister’s public life up to the annual limit.”
> 
> You can read what the allowance is here: Public Duty Costs Allowance guidance
> 
> Given how short her time in office was, I really doubt she will even be able to claim the upper limit of this allowance. I mean it’s used for things like police protection when she has to go and speak at an event. But who would invite her? It’s also used to run an office to deal with all the enquiries a former PM gets. But again… who is going to be getting in touch


Well irrespective of what it is called or what it is intended for, I think under the circumstances it is ethically wrong.


----------



## Calvine

Annealise said:


> Well irrespective of what it is called or what it is intended for, I think under the circumstances it is ethically wrong.


I totally can see where you are coming from. It has been made to sound as though it were a reward for complete and utter incompetence (even Boris sorted out the vaccine programme successfully - she seems to have made a cock-up of everything). Surely she will be a political pariah . . . or?


----------



## Mrs Funkin

The allowance was stated by John Major - he, Gordon Brown Tony Blair and David Cameron have all claimed very close to the full allowance in the latest available figures, Theresa May claimed just under £60k. Considering (for example) TB charges around £300k for a speech, I’m sure he could pay his “allowable incurred expenses” himself? Couldn’t he?


----------



## Lurcherlad

Annealise said:


> Well irrespective of what it is called or what it is intended for, I think under the circumstances it is ethically wrong.


There should be a “minimum term” clause at the very least.


----------



## SbanR

Mrs Funkin said:


> The allowance was stated by John Major - he, Gordon Brown Tony Blair and David Cameron have all claimed very close to the full allowance in the latest available figures, Theresa May claimed just under £60k. Considering (for example) TB charges around £300k for a speech, I’m sure he could pay his “allowable incurred expenses” himself? Couldn’t he?


He could, but how many politicians think that way? Seems to me if they can claim anything from the public purse, most politicians would.


----------



## Boxer123

I know people who are donating the £400 electricity grant to charity as they don’t need it, then you get the government literally taking every penny they can. They make me sick.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> (even Boris sorted out the vaccine programme successfully -


Surely it wasn't just him many people behind the scenes were working on the vaccine programme, he was just the mouth piece.


----------



## Psygon

Annealise said:


> Well irrespective of what it is called or what it is intended for, I think under the circumstances it is ethically wrong.


I think it's wrong that the press and others have misled the public into believing that Liz Truss will get a guaranteed payout of a £115k income every year for life. Headlines have said things like people are skipping meals and Liz Truss is getting £115k a year for life.

She won't because that's not how it works.

No one is going to hand her £115k. She won't be getting money from the tax-payer and using it for a family holiday. She has to genuinely incur costs and then claim back for those costs. That could mean she only claims a few thousand pounds, she claims the full amount, or it could mean she claims nothing.

I do understand why people are annoyed, I just wish the media were reporting it correctly. I guess "Liz Truss may be able to claim up to £115k each year if her diary is full of public engagements based on her time as PM" doesn't sound quite as dramatic, and most people would scoff at the idea that her diary would be full of public engagements. Though I realise the £115k would still stand out as an insult. 

I'm sure she will claim against it, as other PMs have, but I suspect if the amount she claims is really low we won't see headlines about how little she has claimed (unless it can be used to mock her).

I do think the rules around it should be changed so that someone in office for under 6 months doesn't have access to it. And maybe other rules should come in to stop it being paid out if ex-PMs are earning a significant income from other means. Perhaps the outcry will lead to changes - though I doubt that was the intention behind the way it's been reported in the media.


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Surely it wasn't just him many people behind the scenes were working on the vaccine programme, he was just the mouth piece.


The point I was making was that Liz Truss cannot be proud of anything at all during her time at number 10. Totally zero; unless anyone knows something I missed? (Answers on a postcard, please. I believe [to date] her one ''claim to fame'' is being the shortest-serving PM.)


----------



## Deguslave

The media will always go for the attention grabbing headline, its how they sell newspapers. A good few years ago, my local paper ran the banner headline that 'all local libraries were to close.' Reading the article it turned out that were only going to not open on a Monday as no one went in, but the banner headline 'all local libraries to close on a Monday,' doesn't quite have the same impact.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I absolutely get your point @Psygon - and to be honest the headlines are the first time I ever even knew this allowance existed. Since finding out about it though - and realising that several previous PMs are still claiming almost the full amount - it doesn't mean I am less infuriated. Even John Major earns at the least £30,000 for a speech - and it's a jolly long time since he was PM. Again, I'm sure his incurred expenses could (should?) be paid from that, it's a pretty decent hourly rate! Just because you _can_ claim, should you? 

Anyway, not long to go to find out who is officially throwing their hat in the ring. I was laughing at the news stories this morning about how Rishi and Boris had met but they hadn't disclosed what they spoke about. I think we have more chance of Larry the Cat becoming PM than us finding out what was discussed


----------



## Calvine

Mrs Funkin said:


> I absolutely get your point @Psygon - and to be honest the headlines are the first time I ever even knew this allowance existed. Since finding out about it though - and realising that several previous PMs are still claiming almost the full amount - it doesn't mean I am less infuriated. Even John Major earns at the least £30,000 for a speech - and it's a jolly long time since he was PM. Again, I'm sure his incurred expenses could (should?) be paid from that, it's a pretty decent hourly rate! Just because you _can_ claim, should you?
> 
> Anyway, not long to go to find out who is officially throwing their hat in the ring. I was laughing at the news stories this morning about how Rishi and Boris had met but they hadn't disclosed what they spoke about. I think we have more chance of Larry the Cat becoming PM than us finding out what was discussed


Blair charges £300,000 for a twenty minute speech! Boris took a huge salary drop on becoming PM. They have a hard life, don't they.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Anyone invited to Liz’s party weekend at Chequers?


----------



## Pawscrossed

I truthfully believe that all this has exposed how little people have all understood about how much money is earned in Westminster. I can’t believe that there isn‘t any way to see an MP’s register of interests. Yes to a General Election, though I think it’s never going to happen and a complete overhaul of rules and transparency. Sunak won’t - he was obfuscating as Chancellor already.

And don‘t forget Johnson has a book deal for his memoirs. If he gets in, this would be a wonderful happy ending


----------



## Calvine

@Mrs Funkin: Amazing to think of boring old John Major commanding such a fee. Even if he were still PM I'm sure they would have to pay me to sit through one of his speeches. They are all rakiing it in, aren't they! In fact, clown that he is, I reckon BJ would be the most entertaining speaker - pity they can't keep him on as a sort of Court Jester at no. 10.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Calvine said:


> @Mrs Funkin: Amazing to think of boring old John Major commanding such a fee. Even if he were still PM I'm sure they would have to pay me to sit through one of his speeches. They are all rakiing it in, aren't they! In fact, clown that he is, I reckon BJ would be the most entertaining speaker - pity they can't keep him on as a sort of Court Jester at no. 10.


Recently I had cause to agree with him on something to do with Johnson. But all I picture is Edwina Currie. Ditto Gordon Brown and Ed Milliband.. I would throw tableware at Johnson… spit in his food… oh no, put in a fridge and lock the door.


----------



## Calvine

Pawscrossed said:


> Recently I had cause to agree with him on something to do with Johnson. But all I picture is Edwina Currie. Ditto Gordon Brown and Ed Milliband.. I would throw tableware at Johnson… spit in his food… oh no, put in a fridge and lock the door.


Ah yes . . . Edwina.! And wasn't she involved in some controversy about whether eggs were crawling with salmonella?


----------



## OrientalSlave

Calvine said:


> Ah yes . . . Edwina.! And wasn't she involved in some controversy about whether eggs were crawling with salmonella?


She was right some eggs had salmonella. I was working in Whitehall at the time and the civil servants I met - just about all left of centre - were really cross about the pasting she took over that, which she was right about, but she didn't get what she deserved about telling people to wear nightcaps. Or was it bed socks?


----------



## Annealise




----------



## Deguslave

Bojos pulled out if the leadership election.


----------



## Jesthar

Deguslave said:


> Bojos pulled out if the leadership election.


First good news of this whole mess! Now we just need to catch the muppets who thought re-electing him was a good idea...


----------



## Mrs Funkin

Honestly, what is that all about? I guess we will never know if he really did have the numbers he claimed....and I guess lots of MPs/former ministers realise that they won't be in the cabinet again?


----------



## Pawscrossed

Jesthar said:


> First good news of this whole mess! Now we just need to catch the muppets who thought re-electing him was a good idea...


Yup. That’s the biggest problem (and anyone who genuinely would for this shambles in the next election).


----------



## Pawscrossed

Mrs Funkin said:


> Honestly, what is that all about? I guess we will never know if he really did have the numbers he claimed....and I guess lots of MPs/former ministers realise that they won't be in the cabinet again?


Did he ever actually ‘stand’? I didn’t see anything official and thought it was all conjecture by the media and his supporters. Maybe the flight home was actually because he remembered he had a job. It’s like the trailer for Doctor Who with *spolier!* and finding it’s a cyber man.


----------



## Annealise

I think he bluffed and it backfired on him Lol . Rishi Sunak will be PM.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

No, his hat was never officially thrown into the ring, as it were. There's been a lot of claiming of him having the numbers. I guess Rishi it is then...unless someone randomly appears tomorrow.


----------



## Annealise

Yes all hearsay. Said he had the numbers but decided not to be nominated because of the unity of the party.


----------



## Psygon

If both candidates get over 100 nominations/ votes, does it still go to the conservative party members?

And if so... Who do party members prefer? Penny or Rishi?


----------



## Jesthar

Annealise said:


> Yes all hearsay. Said he had the numbers but decided not to be nominated because of the unity of the party.


Hah - what unity!


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I was reading earlier about the "magic number" being 155 - so if Rishi got 155 supporters, that's the end of it...but of course that's before Boris has said he's not running. So in theory, from what I've been reading it could to go to vote again but I don't think it will.


----------



## Jaf

I am actually relieved. Not that I'm a tory voter but boris should be barred from office.

Still want the tories out.


----------



## Annealise

Jesthar said:


> Hah - what unity!


Exactly Lol


----------



## lullabydream

I would definitely love to know about Boris and Rishi meeting now!


----------



## Pawscrossed

The Johnson comeback amounted to flying back from a luxury holiday and people realising he wasn't working at all, togged up and posing still dressed with a shovel, lied about his support and landed on his backside. His allies including Nadine are backtracking on Twitter like fury and seem to suddenly be team Rishi. Ugh, it's like choosing which bucket to vomit into.


----------



## Calvine

OrientalSlave said:


> but she didn't get what she deserved about telling people to wear nightcaps


Thank you - I'm glad you mentioned that; a while back I posted that I thought it was Mrs. Thatcher who had suggested that if people were cold they should knit a pair of gloves and there was outrage. But maybe it was Mrs. Currie and nightcaps. Perhaps she knitted one for John Major to wear in bed.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Mrs Funkin said:


> No, his hat was never officially thrown into the ring, as it were. There's been a lot of claiming of him having the numbers. I guess Rishi it is then...unless someone randomly appears tomorrow.


Turns out there wasn’t anywhere near the numbers so he was lying again. Good riddance, I hope he never returns to the Cabinet again.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Maybe they should set Larry on him after all he saw a fox off, why not a clown.


----------



## Deguslave

And..... the winner is Fishi Rishi! Sorry Larry, but we still love you.


----------



## Calvine

Deguslave said:


> And..... the winner is Fishi Rishi! Sorry Larry, but we still love you.


Larry may be quietly celebrating with a litre bottle of Lik-e-Lix and saying to himself: ''Thank God that blond guy isn't coming back with that annoying damned dog''.


----------



## Deguslave

Calvine said:


> Larry may be quietly celebrating with a litre bottle of Lik-e-Lix and saying to himself: ''Thank God that blond guy isn't coming back with that annoying damned dog''.


"Or the kids they keep popping out."


----------



## Pawscrossed

I still call General Election, let's see what he does with this mess. I fear he's too out of touch like the rest of them and ruthless. Wasn't he also part of the Partygate? I've lost track of the crimes.


----------



## Calvine

Pawscrossed said:


> Wasn't he also part of the Partygate?


 Sure I read yesterday that, PM or not, he will be another one to be questioned (fairly sure [not 100%] it was The Telegraph).


----------



## Happy Paws2

Lost for words


----------



## Arny

Pawscrossed said:


> Wasn't he also part of the Partygate? I've lost track of the crimes.


Yes he got fined. He would have left over it too had Johnson not persuaded him to stay as otherwise would have made Johnson look even worse since he had no intention to resign.


----------



## Happy Paws2

How on earth can he understand how normally people feel when Rishi Sunak and his wife sit on a fortune of £730,000,000. He won't have to worry about his bills.


----------



## Deguslave

That's true enough, but maybe you need experience of dealing with such large figures to understand the budgets of public services. There's a lot of people, and some are in government, who can't get their heads around how much a billion pound is.


----------



## Boxer123

Happy Paws2 said:


> How on earth can he understand how normally people feel when Rishi Sunak and his wife sit on a fortune of £730,000,000. He won't have to worry about his bills.


It’s a mystery isn’t it.


----------



## Linda Weasel

Well, he can’t have any less empathy than Liz Truss….

And his Covid handouts seemed to (mostly) hit where they were needed: Speaking as somebody who was told to shield, got furloughed and still had a job and an employer to go back to.


----------



## Deguslave

As a disabled, single person i fell through the cracks of the pandemic help. I was advised to shield, but wasn't on the vulnerable list so couldn't get priority for supermarket deliveries, despite needing them because I'm virtually housebound. I'm on legacy benefits so didn't get any financial help; I didn't qualify for physical help either so couldn't even get a welfare telephone call.

In effect I was abandoned.


----------



## Cleo38

Deguslave said:


> As a disabled, single person i fell through the cracks of the pandemic help. I was advised to shield, but wasn't on the vulnerable list so couldn't get priority for supermarket deliveries, despite needing them because I'm virtually housebound. I'm on legacy benefits so didn't get any financial help; I didn't qualify for physical help either so couldn't even get a welfare telephone call.
> 
> In effect I was abandoned.


That is so terrible but unfortunately I think so many people were juts forgotten about. It was such a horrible time & I wonder how many people are still suffering because of how they were treated


----------



## kimthecat

Happy Paws2 said:


> How on earth can he understand how normally people feel when Rishi Sunak and his wife sit on a fortune of £730,000,000. He won't have to worry about his bills.


He didn't start life with that much money ! I dont how many MPs have come from a really poor background but Im guessing its not many.


----------



## kimthecat

I was born and bred on a council estate and it was obvious that I was from the wrong side of the tracks. I met other people from different walks of life and it is the mddle class that are the worst snobby ones and resentful towards you, The posh ones were nothing but kind.


----------



## KittenKong

Oh dear. Sunak re-appointing Braverman as HS only days after getting sacked/resigned* for a security breach/breaking the ministerial code* from the same role.

How controversial is that?

*Depends on what source you read/hear.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> He didn't start life with that much money ! I dont how many MPs have come from a really poor background but Im guessing its not many.


I have read variously that his parents had a pharmacy, then I read his father was a doctor. He was at public school, Winchester College, (though of course, he may have got an assisted place because he was academically bright - don't know the details). Apparently In Russia they are saying he came ''from the slums''! 


kimthecat said:


> The posh ones were nothing but kind.


That's often the case, @kimthecat. I think it's because they have nothing to prove, unlike the 'nouveau riche'. Got a neighbour here who is Lord xxxx and he is the nicest, kindest guy you could wish to meet, an absolute gentleman, unlike some who are totally up themselves.


Deguslave said:


> As a disabled, single person i fell through the cracks of the pandemic help. I was advised to shield, but wasn't on the vulnerable list so couldn't get priority for supermarket deliveries, despite needing them because I'm virtually housebound. I'm on legacy benefits so didn't get any financial help; I didn't qualify for physical help either so couldn't even get a welfare telephone call.
> 
> In effect I was abandoned.


I hate stories like this, you feel so frustrated that this sort of thing happens and that at the same time there was the ''something-for-nothing'' brigade claiming fraudulently to the tune of billions. I have a neighbour who is always boasting about what her daughter claims that she is not entitled to - she is really in awe of her and says things like, ''Oh yes, she knows how to play the system'' as if it's something to be proud of.


----------



## rona

kimthecat said:


> I was born and bred on a council estate and it was obvious that I was from the wrong side of the tracks. I met other people from different walks of life and it is the mddle class that are the worst snobby ones and resentful towards you, The posh ones were nothing but kind.


This is generally what I've found and I've mixed with quite a few very rich people, even though I'm a council house kid too 


KittenKong said:


> Oh dear. Sunak re-appointing Braverman as HS only days after getting sacked/resigned* for a security breach/breaking the ministerial code* from the same role.


It's Theresa Coffey I'm horrified at. How on earth can someone like her still have a job?
At least she's away from our precious NHS now but moved to DEFRA to harass the people who feed us 


Calvine said:


> I have read variously that his parents had a pharmacy, then I read his father was a doctor. He was at public school, Winchester College, (though of course, he may have got an assisted place because he was academically bright


I heard he had a scholarship


----------



## Pawscrossed

It's rather worrying how little we know of his, or any MPs background. This shouldn't be obfusticated yet seems to come out after they are in a position of power and harder to remove.


----------



## kimthecat

A nice surprise through the post today . As Im a pensioner I am entitled to a winter fuel payment of £500. That is a massive amount .


----------



## OrientalSlave

Pawscrossed said:


> It's rather worrying how little we know of his, or any MPs background. This shouldn't be obfusticated yet seems to come out after they are in a position of power and harder to remove.


Not sure what you want to know. Wikipedia has an entry for him (parents were immigrants). Several others are online as well.


----------



## StormyThai

Meanwhile in the land of the rich:
Shell beats forecasts as profits more than double

The government could do something about this...this government won't.
Giving people a poxy handout (that we will have to pay back) is a great way of convincing people that they are helping though


----------



## Boxer123

StormyThai said:


> Meanwhile in the land of the rich:
> Shell beats forecasts as profits more than double
> 
> The government could do something about this...this government won't.
> Giving people a poxy handout (that we will have to pay back) is a great way of convincing people that they are helping though


Fuel to get to work is costing me a fortune at the moment. They just don’t care.


----------



## Pawscrossed

OrientalSlave said:


> Not sure what you want to know. Wikipedia has an entry for him (parents were immigrants). Several others are online as well.


Wiki can be freely edited to suit.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Today just feels worse. UN report on our dying planet and no presence at COP27 is awfully miserable. I am wearing a jumper anyway though Sunak must be gleeful as nobody has to switch on heating. I keep reminding myself that ONS says more people care about climate crisis than not. If only we could all afford to repair it.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Pawscrossed said:


> Wiki can be freely edited to suit.


And you can see who edited it, and when.


----------



## kimthecat

Reason not to vote Labour.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Well I shall vote labour.


----------



## Mrs Funkin

I still think that even though people are so so angry about what is happening now, unless Labour get a different leader, they will not win a GE (especially if there's no GE soon). 

(I had the rage at the time about that comment @kimthecat I was, in fact, LIVID!)


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> Reason not to vote Labour.
> 
> View attachment 579181


If I remember correctly this all stemmed from the fact that trans-men and non-binary people are not routinely invited for cervical screening, because GP systems record them as male or non-binary - regardless of whether they have had surgery to remove the cervix or not - and only females are invited for screening. Trans-men and non-binary people then have to specifically ask to be included in screening. I believe that NHS advice was updated to try and ensure that people that identify as male and non-binary, but who haven't had surgery, actually ask.

Updating the advice to (I think) 'people with a cervix' resulted in a tweet by maybe Piers Morgan? Or Rosie duffield that said 'only women have a cervix' and resulted in a debate over trans rights - and Kier Starmer being asked do only women have a cervix.

But essentially this only happened because GP systems cant (or couldn't) cope with gender and sex as different things and someone thought "how do we make sure that women, trans-men and non-binary people come for cervical screening". Perhaps it would have been better to improve GP systems, but instead they updated advice.

I think that's the problem with headline grabbing statements like this as it's not digging into the real issue. Which is, I think, probably more about whether the original statement or advice should have been "women or people with a cervix" rather than what it originally said "people with a cervix". 

I do get that there is a wider issue here as well, about the erasure of women, but I think it's more complex than soundbites and headline statements. There is definitely a sense of fear and political correctness around how to talk about trans people that seems to tie people up in knots for fear of offence. The mistake that I think Kier made was allowing himself to be drawn into the debate. I'm not sure that Sajid Javid's repsonse - which was something around how the statement was was biologically incorrect - was any better.


----------



## Calvine

Mrs Funkin said:


> unless Labour get a different leader, they will not win a GE


Absolutely spot on. Charlatan and cockwomble that he is, Boris had the uncanny knack and advantage of being extremely electable, whereas KS is, in my opinion, totally unelectable.


----------



## Arny

Calvine said:


> Boris had the uncanny knack and advantage of being extremely electable


Although some of us still have no idea what was so appealing.


----------



## Calvine

Arny said:


> Although some of us still have no idea what was so appealing.


Maybe the hair?👱‍♂️


----------



## huckybuck

Calvine said:


> Absolutely spot on. Charlatan and cockwomble that he is, Boris had the uncanny knack and advantage of being extremely electable, whereas KS is, in my opinion, totally unelectable.


I love that word. Cockwomble 😂


----------



## Calvine

huckybuck said:


> I love that word. Cockwomble 😂


He's one of the very few people about whom I would use it. Cock for short!


----------



## Pawscrossed

kimthecat said:


> Reason not to vote Labour.
> 
> View attachment 579181



How I vote isn't anyone on PF's business. Remember it's voting for the party not the leader of the party.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Psygon said:


> If I remember correctly this all stemmed from the fact that trans-men and non-binary people are not routinely invited for cervical screening, because GP systems record them as male or non-binary - regardless of whether they have had surgery to remove the cervix or not - and only females are invited for screening. Trans-men and non-binary people then have to specifically ask to be included in screening. I believe that NHS advice was updated to try and ensure that people that identify as male and non-binary, but who haven't had surgery, actually ask.
> 
> Updating the advice to (I think) 'people with a cervix' resulted in a tweet by maybe Piers Morgan? Or Rosie duffield that said 'only women have a cervix' and resulted in a debate over trans rights - and Kier Starmer being asked do only women have a cervix.
> 
> But essentially this only happened because GP systems cant (or couldn't) cope with gender and sex as different things and someone thought "how do we make sure that women, trans-men and non-binary people come for cervical screening". Perhaps it would have been better to improve GP systems, but instead they updated advice.
> 
> I think that's the problem with headline grabbing statements like this as it's not digging into the real issue. Which is, I think, probably more about whether the original statement or advice should have been "women or people with a cervix" rather than what it originally said "people with a cervix".
> 
> I do get that there is a wider issue here as well, about the erasure of women, but I think it's more complex than soundbites and headline statements. There is definitely a sense of fear and political correctness around how to talk about trans people that seems to tie people up in knots for fear of offence. The mistake that I think Kier made was allowing himself to be drawn into the debate. I'm not sure that Sajid Javid's repsonse - which was something around how the statement was was biologically incorrect - was any better.


Thank you for writing what I wanted to say but so much better than I would. 

I detest memes that have no context (and I won't go into my views on this topic here as I have already expressed my dislike of Rowling). It is _very_ complex and I just don't think this is the platform in which to have that discussion as it lacks the representation (from what I can only assume) to be inclusive and balanced.


----------



## Pawscrossed

Liz Truss spent only 45 days at 10 Downing Street, which equates to 1,080 hours. Here are some of the things she could have done rather than serve as Britain’s shortest-lived prime minister:

Cook 9,257 hard-boiled eggs
Listen 108 times to the Beatles’ entire back catalogue of 213 songs
Watch nine full-length test cricket matches
Binge watch all the episodes of the Crown on Netflix 38 times
Travel back and forth along the Trans-Siberian Railway six and half times.

*technically 33 days (?) as parliament was in recess for Queen's death*

I don't think she even got to _co_ of _cockwomble_ or any alternative before she was gone.


----------



## Calvine

Pawscrossed said:


> How I vote isn't anyone on PF's business.


I don't think anyone thought or said it was (unless I missed something) . . . but there are a couple of regular posters on the thread who make it very obvious whom they vote for and obviously want us all to know. There is one person who disappears for months on end and then re-emerges maybe twice a year just to bellyache about the Conservatives . . . was posting non-stop on the various Brexit threads; I truly don't recall them ever posting on any pet thread and I always wonder why they bothered to join a pet forum. It's as if they think their opinion on the Conservatives is so important that they have to shout it from the rooftops on as many forums as possible. You have been a member of PF for some time so maybe you can guess their identity. I don't care whom anyone chooses to vote for . . . live and let live and all that.


----------



## kimthecat

Pawscrossed said:


> How I vote isn't anyone on PF's business. Remember it's voting for the party not the leader of the party.


I didn't ask who you voted for . I really dont care , I gave a reason not to vote Labour , just as anyone gives a reason not to vote Green , Tory . etc. Womens rights are important to me , 
Its naive to think that who the leader of the party is doesn't affect voting.
Corbyn cost Labour the past two elections, If they had had a different Leader . they probably could have won.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> I don't think anyone thought or said it was (unless I missed something) . . . but there are a couple of regular posters on the thread who make it very obvious whom they vote for and obviously want us all to know. There is one person who disappears for months on end and then re-emerges maybe twice a year just to bellyache about the Conservatives . . . was posting non-stop on the various Brexit threads; I truly don't recall them ever posting on any pet thread and I always wonder why they bothered to join a pet forum. It's as if they think their opinion on the Conservatives is so important that they have to shout it from the rooftops on as many forums as possible. You have been a member of PF for some time so maybe you can guess their identity. I don't care whom anyone chooses to vote for . . . live and let live and all that.


No you didn't miss anything. Funny how people assume if you criticise an MP or a PM then you must vote for the opposite party !

yeah a couple of people , I could think of !


----------



## Psygon

kimthecat said:


> I didn't ask who you voted for . I really dont care , I gave a reason not to vote Labour , just as anyone gives a reason not to vote Green , Tory . etc. Womens rights are important to me ,
> Its naive to think that who the leader of the party is doesn't affect voting.
> Corbyn cost Labour the past two elections, If they had had a different Leader . they probably could have won.


I don’t think labour would have won in 2019, regardless of leader, unless they had decided to have a stronger stance on brexit. 2017 was definitely different as it was so close, but I can’t really remember if there were any stand out big issues (as well as Corbyn).

I think in terms of voting for the leader of the party… while we all know that’s not how the system works, when people walk into a polling booth they expect to see the leaders on their voting form. Although I don’t know if people who vote liberal or green are the same - it feels like this voting for the leader is of the party is more true for the party in power and the opposition.


----------



## kimthecat

Labour's contradictory policies on trans and women's rights must be addressed | Susanna Rustin


By backing both reforms to the Gender Recognition Act and single-sex spaces, the party is unable to communicate clearly to voters, says Guardian journalist Susanna Rustin




www.theguardian.com


----------



## O2.0

kimthecat said:


> Labour's contradictory policies on trans and women's rights must be addressed | Susanna Rustin
> 
> 
> By backing both reforms to the Gender Recognition Act and single-sex spaces, the party is unable to communicate clearly to voters, says Guardian journalist Susanna Rustin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Thank you for sharing, that was an interesting and worrisome read! I really hope the pendulum of wokeness will swing back to a more moderate place here soon!


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> Corbyn cost Labour the past two elections


That was the point I made: Boris was (mysteriously) very electable . . . Starmer isn't and Corbyn wasn't. I imagine there are thousands of people who would vote tomorrow for Boris if the alternative was Keir Starmer.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> That was the point I made:* Boris was (mysteriously) very electable .* . . Starmer isn't and Corbyn wasn't. I imagine there are thousands of people who would vote tomorrow for Boris if the alternative was Keir Starmer.


I never could understand why so many people could vote for a such lying, scruffy, idiot.


----------



## Arny

Maybe I’m not remembering correctly but I thought Corbyn did well the first time round?
I’m of a younger generation and it was like a sort of movement was happening, people who’d never voted before suddenly became interested.
My area has been conservative since the dawn of time but it was the first glimmer of possibility that it may not always be so.

Then it all went to pot as 2019 was about one thing and one thing only and really he was for brexit but the party needed him to not to be.
I’m not so sure that those that ‘lent’ their vote to conservatives last time will do it again though.


----------



## Psygon

Happy Paws2 said:


> I never could understand why so many people could vote for a such lying, scruffy, idiot.


I don't think in 2019 the extent of his lies were necessarily all that well known.

I think that his winning had far more to do with the claim to get Brexit done than it did anything else. By the point he campaigned on that people were sick and tired of the back and forth and just wanted it to end.

I'm sure if you look at percentages that voted conservative and Brexit party it was bordering on the same number that voted for Brexit. And it's what led to the red wall crumbling.

Regardless of leader I think the vote in the next GE will be really different.


----------



## Dimwit

Calvine said:


> Absolutely spot on. Charlatan and cockwomble that he is, Boris had the uncanny knack and advantage of being extremely electable, whereas KS is, in my opinion, totally unelectable.


Well the latest polls would suggest otherwise, with BJ predicted to lose his seat and the Tories set to be totally annihilated...

I don't particularly like Labour for it's indecisive stance on women, but given the state that 12 years of Tory rule have left the country in, Labour are the only viable alternative...


----------



## OrientalSlave

Psygon said:


> I don't think in 2019 the extent of his lies were necessarily all that well known.
> 
> I think that his winning had far more to do with the claim to get Brexit done than it did anything else. By the point he campaigned on that people were sick and tired of the back and forth and just wanted it to end.
> 
> I'm sure if you look at percentages that voted conservative and Brexit party it was bordering on the same number that voted for Brexit. And it's what led to the red wall crumbling.
> 
> Regardless of leader I think the vote in the next GE will be really different.


It was known then he had been sacked, twice, for lying, and it was clear to all who saw a photo that he's scruffy.


----------



## OrientalSlave

Calvine said:


> That was the point I made: Boris was (mysteriously) very electable . . . Starmer isn't and Corbyn wasn't. I imagine there are thousands of people who would vote tomorrow for Boris if the alternative was Keir Starmer.


What in your view makes Starmer unelectable? 

He's never been sacked for lying, he's not lied to the Queen, he's not had umpteen affairs or illegitimate children (i.e., he doesn't lie to his wife), he is well presented, he isn't out to be a clown to entertain & distract us, he performs creditably in Parliament (as a KC & former head of DPP should), he's never hide in a fridge to avoid the press, I doubt he needs a minder to make sure he washes his hands and so on (Johnson asked his to pick up his dog's turds), he seems highly unlikely to get the likes of Lulu Lyttle to redecorate, he hasn't held umpteen boozy parties (the cleaners found vomit after some of the Downing Street parties & the party-goers sent for more booze by the suitcase) when the country is in lockdown, can't see him being involved in a Chris Pincher-type scenario.


----------



## kimthecat

Arny said:


> Maybe I’m not remembering correctly but I thought Corbyn did well the first time round?
> I’m of a younger generation and it was like a sort of movement was happening, people who’d never voted before suddenly became interested.
> My area has been conservative since the dawn of time but it was the first glimmer of possibility that it may not always be so.


Yes , If I remember correctly he went to Glastonbury and they sang a song about him . He was a trend with the younger generation and like most trends , it didnt last .


----------



## kimthecat

Dimwit said:


> Well the latest polls would suggest otherwise, with BJ predicted to lose his seat and the Tories set to be totally annihilated...
> 
> I don't particularly like Labour for it's indecisive stance on women, but given the state that 12 years of Tory rule have left the country in, Labour are the only viable alternative...


Boris is my MP 😕 This area has been Tory for many many years and despite the fact I dont vote Tory , the MPs here have always been local and done a good job protecting our area . At the moment , they are fighting to stop a massive build of high rise blocks apartments near me that most people cant afford , originally 10 stories. some of it on green belt land . The Mayor of London Khan gave permission and its at the appeal stage . 

I think it will be very close. There was some talk a little while ago about the bounderies changing and that would affect Tory votes but Im not sure if that happened. 

Boris said he would lie down in front of a bulldozer if the third runway at Heathrow went ahead but when there was a vote on it , he would have had to vote against his government and somehow manage to wrangle a visit abroad so couldnt vote. I dont want him to be my MP but Im not sure if I want Labour in this area.


----------



## QOTN

I think the 2019 election being almost exclusively about Brexit was a disaster which is still having ramifications as we know from the subsequent developments. It also divided the Labour Party as much as the Tories but the latter had the advantage of the majority of the press gunning for Corbyn.

I agree that Starmer is far more presentable as a representative of this government on the world stage. Unfortunately his purge of the Labour Party has had very mixed results. The membership has plummeted and some of the unions are turning against him so he may not be in the best position to gain power at the next election.

(@kimthecat it would be quite interesting if Uxbridge became Labour since Hayes and Harlington have been as long as I can remember. When I was living and working there the division was quite marked particularly in the schools. Maybe the borough is levelling up. I left there over forty years ago so I have no idea of the present situation.)


----------



## kimthecat

QOTN said:


> (@kimthecat it would be quite interesting if Uxbridge became Labour since Hayes and Harlington have been as long as I can remember. When I was living and working there the division was quite marked particularly in the schools. Maybe the borough is levelling up. I left there over forty years ago so I have no idea of the present situation.)


Hayes is part of the London Borough of Hillingdon , I assume it was the local Council which was also Conservative rather than the local MPs who made the decisions about schools etc. New schools have been built and others expanded and I understand you can choose a school now rather than just your local one. 

I met John McDonnell ( Hayes MP) back in the day when he was a house parent with his first wife. he really does care and he is approachable . He would have made a better PM than Corbyn , more clued up and coherent though not sure about his links to terrorists or freedom fighters as they are called now,  . Dave Miliband was my favourite choice ,


----------



## Magyarmum

kimthecat said:


> Hayes is part of the London Borough of Hillingdon , I assume it was the local Council which was also Conservative rather than the local MPs who made the decisions about schools etc. New schools have been built and others expanded and I understand you can choose a school now rather than just your local one.
> 
> I met John McDonnell ( Hayes MP) back in the day when he was a house parent with his first wife. he really does care and he is approachable . He would have made a better PM than Corbyn , more clued up and coherent though not sure about his links to terrorists or freedom fighters as they are called now,  . Dave Miliband was my favourite choice ,


Such a pity about David Miliband. I think he would have made a good PM.


----------



## QOTN

kimthecat said:


> Hayes is part of the London Borough of Hillingdon , I assume it was the local Council which was also Conservative rather than the local MPs who made the decisions about schools etc. New schools have been built and others expanded and I understand you can choose a school now rather than just your local one.


I was a peri in Hillingdon in the 1970s so saw the schools across the borough. My comment was more about the population of the various parts of the borough not necessarily the governance of the schools. I lived in Hayes and subsequently in Sipson. I hope the different areas are becoming more inclusive now. I don't think we will approach consensus in politics while there is such disparity in different areas and the 'them and us' attitude prevails.


----------



## kimthecat

QOTN said:


> I was a peri in Hillingdon in the 1970s so saw the schools across the borough. My comment was more about the population of the various parts of the borough not necessarily the governance of the schools. I lived in Hayes and subsequently in Sipson. I hope the different areas are becoming more inclusive now. I don't think we will approach consensus in politics while there is such disparity in different areas and the 'them and us' attitude prevails.


 What is a peri? Im not sure what you mean about the population , do you mean race and/or class? 
There were very rough areas in some parts of Hayes and also Yiewsley , rougher than my estate but I was still a "them" within my own area.


----------



## QOTN

kimthecat said:


> What is a peri? Im not sure what you mean about the population , do you mean race and/or class?
> There were very rough areas in some parts of Hayes and also Yiewsley , rougher than my estate but I was still a "them" within my own area.


Sorry. Peri is short for peripatetic teacher. (I was a cellist.)

I didn't mean race, class or 'roughness.' I think there is too much separation between the haves and the have nots to put it at its most basic.


----------



## kimthecat

QOTN said:


> Sorry. Peri is short for peripatetic teacher. (I was a cellist.)


Wow! What an amazing job.


----------



## Calvine

Dimwit said:


> Well the latest polls would suggest otherwise, with BJ predicted to lose his seat and the Tories set to be totally annihilated...
> 
> I don't particularly like Labour for it's indecisive stance on women, but given the state that 12 years of Tory rule have left the country in, Labour are the only viable alternative...


I'll take your word for that - I have not seen the latest polls.


----------



## Calvine

kimthecat said:


> The Mayor of London Khan gave permission and its at the appeal stage .


Exactly the same here. There was a small retail park with a Homebase, [email protected] and (I think) a Curry's. This is opposite a big Sainsbury's and right next to a level crossing which is 'down' apparently for 40 minutes every hour on a weekday, so a pretty congested area, altho' the Sainsbury's at least has two entrances/exits. Any cars in the development will have to join queues for Sainsbury's or the level crossing. Khan, the green warrior, has ordained that it will be bulldozed for ''affordable housing'', and like yours, 11 storeys high with about 500 ''units''. It has been thrown out several times, but he comes back like a dog with a bone. But then Khan takes three cars when he takes his dog for a ''walk'' and uses a £300,000 Range Rover to go a few miles to work. Very green!


----------



## JANICE199

Happy Paws2 said:


> I never could understand why so many people could vote for a such lying, scruffy, idiot.


*As much as Boris has been/ was proven a liar, the press never hounded him like they did Corbyn.*


----------



## Calvine

Matt Hancock loses Tory whip after agreeing to appear on I’m a Celebrity | Matt Hancock | The Guardian 

Joining Mike Tindall who is (allegedly) about to do the same.


----------



## kimthecat

Calvine said:


> Exactly the same here. There was a small retail park with a Homebase, [email protected] and (I think) a Curry's. This is opposite a big Sainsbury's and right next to a level crossing which is 'down' apparently for 40 minutes every hour on a weekday, so a pretty congested area, altho' the Sainsbury's at least has two entrances/exits. Any cars in the development will have to join queues for Sainsbury's or the level crossing. Khan, the green warrior, has ordained that it will be bulldozed for ''affordable housing'', and like yours, 11 storeys high with about 500 ''units''. It has been thrown out several times, but he comes back like a dog with a bone. But then Khan takes three cars when he takes his dog for a ''walk'' and uses a £300,000 Range Rover to go a few miles to work. Very green!


Sounds a nightmare.


----------



## Calvine

@kimthecat: not to mention all the empty cycle lanes causing even more congestion!


----------



## Boxer123

Calvine said:


> Matt Hancock loses Tory whip after agreeing to appear on I’m a Celebrity | Matt Hancock | The Guardian
> 
> Joining Mike Tindall who is (allegedly) about to do the same.


Apparently being paid £400,000 to go on. More money than most of us will see in a lifetime. He said he is going in to talk about Dyslexia. He could talk to local schools in his constituency but has chosen to go to the jungle instead. Schools are chronically under funded like every other area will he be donating his fee ?


----------



## Calvine

Boxer123 said:


> Apparently being paid £400,000 to go on. More money than most of us will see in a lifetime. He said he is going in to talk about Dyslexia. He could talk to local schools in his constituency but has chosen to go to the jungle instead. Schools are chronically under funded like every other area will he be donating his fee ?


It is also alleged that he missed last month's Tory conference to film ''Celebrity SAS: Who Dares Wins''.


----------



## Deguslave

I heard someone say that they want to see Hancock eat a kangaroo penis, I just want to see him kicked in the penis by a kangaroo.

I might even buy a license and a tv to see that.


----------



## Happy Paws2

I never thought I'd say this but after the last few months/years and the Autumn Statement I hope the tories win the next election, why should Labour have to sort out the mess the tories got us into, let them sort it out!


----------



## Siskin

Like that way the previous Labour government left a note at the treasury saying ‘there’s no money left’.

Its not only Torys that make a mess of things


----------



## StormyThai

Siskin said:


> Its not only Torys that make a mess of things



No it isn't... however, the Tories are 100% responsible for what is happening right now.

And with my MP swanning about in the jungle for a lovely £400'000 extra cash while he should be working for the area that voted him in and kept him in for a decade it shows to me that they care not... we (general we) should expect more from the government in power.


----------



## Siskin

StormyThai said:


> No it isn't... however, the Tories are 100% responsible for what is happening right now.


I wasn’t saying they weren’t


----------



## Happy Paws2

Siskin said:


> Like that way the previous Labour government left a note at the treasury saying ‘there’s no money left’.
> 
> Its not only Torys that make a mess of things


If you remember the world was in depression at the time no one governments fault.

The mess we are in now was caused by this government over the last twelve years and the damage Truss done over the last few months. No other government has been in charge so long and got us in such a Bl**dy mess.


----------



## Boxer123

Just watching Jeremy Hunt try to explain why he won’t be taxing those with Non Don status has made me feel even more ill. They say that everyone will struggle but will the super rich ? MPs currently earning £400000 in the jungle ? No it will be normal working people.

I fear this winter will see a rise in suicides people cannot cut back anymore. Truss managed to cause huge amounts of damage. People will be paying £200/300 more a month as a direct result. I don’t remember in any labour government in my lifetime so many working people having to use food banks it’s a disgrace.


----------



## JoanneF

Happy Paws2 said:


> you remember the world was in depression at the time


A bit like it is now. If we want to look at fault, Russia has to shoulder a lot of the blame


----------



## Happy Paws2

Boxer123 said:


> I fear this winter will see a rise in suicides people cannot cut back anymore. Truss managed to cause huge amounts of damage. People will be paying £200/300 more a month as a direct result. * I don’t remember in any labour government in my lifetime so many working people having to use food banks it’s a disgrace.*


You'd never know we are the 5th richest country in the world, it's starting to feel like 3rd world one.


----------



## Happy Paws2

JoanneF said:


> A bit like it is now. If we want to look at fault, Russia has to shoulder a lot of the blame



You can't blame Russia for twelve years of damage.


----------



## Dimwit

JoanneF said:


> A bit like it is now. If we want to look at fault, Russia has to shoulder a lot of the blame


Yes, the situation in Russia, and covid have contributed. BUT we are set to be the worst performing country other than Russia. That is absolutely the fault of the Conservative government, with Brexit and their determination to protect the super-rich at the expense of everyone else.


----------



## Happy Paws2

Dimwit said:


> Yes, the situation in Russia, and covid have contributed. BUT we are set to be the worst performing country other than Russia. That is absolutely the fault of the Conservative government, with Brexit and* their determination to protect the super-rich at the expense of everyone else.*


That's the problem with the government most of them are that rich they have know idea about the way normal people have to live.


----------



## Calvine

Siskin said:


> Like that way the previous Labour government left a note at the treasury saying ‘there’s no money left’.
> 
> Its not only Torys that make a mess of things


I remember it being said that George Brown flogged off a huge chunk of the country's gold reserves.


----------



## JoanneF

Calvine said:


> I remember it being said that George Brown flogged off a huge chunk of the country's gold reserves.


He did. When the price of gold was low. He also did something - I can't remember exactly what - that messed up the pension funds.


----------



## Deguslave

JoanneF said:


> He did. When the price of gold was low. He also did something - I can't remember exactly what - that messed up the pension funds.


He abolished the tax relief on them which cost the funds £5bn.


----------



## Happy Paws2

To be honest I don't care what governments did in the past and some of them have done some awful things, it's what's this Bl**dy government's doing to us now that worries the life out of me.


----------



## JoanneF

But if governments in the past hadn't sold off the gold reserves/cut £5 billion from the pension funds/left a note at the treasury saying 'we spent it all and there's nothing left' don't you think we'd be in a better position?


----------



## Happy Paws2

JoanneF said:


> But if governments in the past hadn't sold off the gold reserves/cut £5 billion from the pension funds/left a note at the treasury saying 'we spent it all and there's nothing left' don't you think we'd be in a better position?


No, because over the last 12 years the tories have slowly been dismantling the country the NHS for one,


----------



## Deguslave

Well the repercussions of Brown's decisions are still being felt, particularly with the pension funds because no one bothered to reinstate the tax relief.


----------



## Happy Paws2

posted twice


----------



## mrs phas

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's the problem with the government most of them are that rich they have know idea about the way normal people have to live.


Including Sir (less we forget) Keir Starmer , the leader of the Labour party 
A party made by the working people,
Unfortunately
no longer FOR the working people


----------



## Calvine

JoanneF said:


> He did. When the price of gold was low. He also did something - I can't remember exactly what - that messed up the pension funds.


I'm vague about it too - but I remember people being mortified (about ?20 years back) about it?


----------



## Deguslave

What he did amounted to a tax raid on pension funds. It left millions of people, who thought they would have a comfortable retirement because they'd paid in to company pension schemes, facing poverty in old age because the funds were having to pay massive amounts of tax instead of paying the people who had worked all their lives and paid into the scheme.


----------



## mrs phas

JoanneF said:


> But if governments in the past hadn't left a note at the treasury saying 'we spent it all and there's nothing left' don't you think we'd be in a better position?


On this point, he wasn't the first



> It has become something of a tradition for outgoing ministers to leave personal, private notes for their successors. In 1964, outgoing Tory chancellor Reggie Maudling left a note for his Labour successor, Jim Callaghan: “Good luck, old cock. Sorry to leave it in such a mess.” Callaghan reportedly thought he was talking about the state of his office at first, before he looked at the books.


And


> Laws told the audience. "Unfortunately, when I opened it, it was a one-sentence letter which simply said, 'Dear chief secretary, I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left,' which was honest but slightly less helpful advice than I had been expecting.” Crucially, Laws misquoted the letter and added in the word "left" – reinforcing the new coalition government's message that Labour are utter spendthrifts and can't be trusted.


.

I should add, I'm no labour supporter 
but
I AM sick of this being brought up time and time again as a reason NOT to let them into power


----------



## Deguslave

Upon leaving office, most governments seem to behave like children. They leave the obligatory note saying they've spent all the money, there's even been reports of them changing the telephone lists so the numbers are incorrect. Its playground mentality.


----------



## Psygon

JoanneF said:


> But if governments in the past hadn't sold off the gold reserves/cut £5 billion from the pension funds/left a note at the treasury saying 'we spent it all and there's nothing left' don't you think we'd be in a better position?


The problem with what's going on now in the UK economy is that it is the outcome of decades of decision-making - not just what's been happening in recent history. I mean arguably you can look at what happened during the 80's and the Thatcher government. Loads of deregulation, privatisation, and the huge growth of the financial sector. When that all crashed in 2008 it really hurt the UK - maybe more than it did in other countries. Would it have hurt so much if the UK hadn’t embraced that growth? 

The attempt to clear up after that, with austerity, then hurt even more. Public services were decimated, and wages and living standards fell. The blame was then thrown around at, amongst others, Europe and immigrants - pretty much anyone who had nothing to do with it. That probably helped lead to Brexit, which has hurt our economy too. 

Then just to top it all off along came COVID, and Ukraine. And then a dose of Trussonomics. All of which is contributing to breaking our economy even more.

I guess essentially I'm not disagreeing with anyone above - just that loads of stuff have led to where we are today. Every government has made mistakes and everyone is now paying the price of those mistakes.


----------



## Psygon

mrs phas said:


> Including Sir (less we forget) Keir Starmer , the leader of the Labour party
> A party made by the working people,
> Unfortunately
> no longer FOR the working people


To be fair to Kier Starmer, he only became a sir through receiving an honour. It’s not like he was born into significant wealth. His parents were working class - father worked in a factory, mother was a nurse. He wasn’t privately educated. First in his family to go to university. 

He has obviously gone on to do pretty well… and I think thru property and assets is a millionaire…


----------



## Lurcherlad

I don’t have much confidence in ANY of them, irrespective of the party, tbh.


----------



## Calvine

Deguslave said:


> What he did amounted to a tax raid on pension funds. It left millions of people, who thought they would have a comfortable retirement because they'd paid in to company pension schemes, facing poverty in old age because the funds were having to pay massive amounts of tax instead of paying the people who had worked all their lives and paid into the scheme.


Basically just a ''legal'' version of what Robert Maxwell did then.


----------



## Happy Paws2

[QUOTE="Psygon, post: 1065967522, member: 13697
To be fair to Kier Starmer, he only became a sir through receiving an honour. It’s not like he was born into significant wealth. His parents were working class - father worked in a factory, mother was a nurse. He wasn’t privately educated. First in his family to go to university.

He has obviously gone on to do pretty well… and I think thru property and assets is a millionaire…
[/QUOTE]


_*So in that case he knows more about how we feel and struggle with everyday life than our elite millionaire government does.*_


----------



## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> That's the problem with the government most of them are that rich they have know idea about the way normal people have to live.


I've read several times that Sunak's trainers cost hundreds - more than most families spend on food in a month . . . just an example of how out of touch they all are. Rayner spent thousands on a boob job - the list goes on.


----------



## Psygon

Calvine said:


> I've read several times that Sunak's trainers cost hundreds - more than most families spend on food in a month . . . just an example of how out of touch they all are. Rayner spent thousands on a boob job - the list goes on.


Whilst I definitely don’t disagree that politicians tend to be entirely out of touch with ordinary people, I’m not sure comparing Sunak and Rayner is entirely fair. I mean didn’t she take out a loan to pay for the boob job? It’s not like at the time she was rolling in cash. I don’t think sunak has to take out loans for his trainers 😀


----------



## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> I've read several times that Sunak's trainers cost hundreds - more than most families spend on food in a month . . . just an example of how out of touch they all are*. Rayner spent thousands on a boob job *- the list goes on.


But she'll only have it done once, how often does he buy new trainers and I dread to think how much he pays for shoes.


----------



## Calvine

Psygon said:


> Whilst I definitely don’t disagree that politicians tend to be entirely out of touch with ordinary people, I’m not sure comparing Sunak and Rayner is entirely fair. I mean didn’t she take out a loan to pay for the boob job? It’s not like at the time she was rolling in cash. I don’t think sunak has to take out loans for his trainers 😀


It indicates to me that she does not prioritise her money very well. Still, I doubt she will ever be Chancellor so at least she won't be responsible for anyone else's!


----------



## Deguslave

To be honest, I don't care how much politicians pay for their personal property as long as they came by the money honestly and didn't defraud the tax payer for it.

Everyone was up in arms when Rishi Sunaks wife bought out tea for the journalists in expensive mugs, what was she supposed to do, bring it out in jam jars? It was a nice gesture and everyone jumped on her for it.

I'd rather the people who represent the country went about looking decent than looking like something out of Shameless.


----------



## Siskin

Deguslave said:


> To be honest, I don't care how much politicians pay for their personal property as long as they came by the money honestly and didn't defraud the tax payer for it.
> 
> Everyone was up in arms when Rishi Sunaks wife bought out tea for the journalists in expensive mugs, what was she supposed to do, bring it out in jam jars? It was a nice gesture and everyone jumped on her for it.
> 
> I'd rather the people who represent the country went about looking decent than looking like something out of Shameless.


Everyone was always moaning about how Boris was scruffy and messy looking, now we have a smart and tidy PM people are moaning about him. 
Rishis parents were immigrants and worked hard to provide for their son, he must have been aware of this. Yes, they had qualifications that allowed them to have well paid jobs, but those qualification take a lot of time and money to achieve.
He has been successful in his previous career and presumably saved money. Yes he married a rich women, is that so very wrong? Should he have married a penniless women and deliberately dress down in cheap clothes that make him look scruffy and messy looking? Whatever my politics are, I don’t resent rich people who have made money honestly.


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## MollySmith

Lava Mayfair Club Limited which Akshata Murty was a significant investor went into administration during the pandemic, owing £374k to HMRC. One borrowed £1.3m from government-backed Future Fund which Sunak launched. 

There's also the company linked to Michelle Mone which bought £7.5m private jet after the PPE windfall and into which Sunak handed over millions as Chancellor. 

Adam Afriyie is declared bankrupt and owed £1m to HMRC and £700k to Barclays but the PM allows him to hold a seat as an MP until the next election. If anyone else defrauded their own employer, they'd be booted out, surely? 

Sunak's parents immigrant background has no bearing on his ability to do his job nor does whom he married as long as what they do is ethical as befits the office of power that he - and her by marriage - hold. The above are very questionable, particularly in the run up to the tax deadline for many small businesses who are hit by energy bills and see millions not being paid.

(Boris's dressing with a shovel is a taking the p*ss, his lack of ethics, morals and law breaking were, for many the reason people wanted him gone. And many dead at the hands of his cabinet and, as he was Chancellor, Sunak too IMO)


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## MollySmith

Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow....









Traces of suspected cocaine found after parties in Liz Truss’s grace-and-favour house, say staff


Exclusive: White powder residue found after events held at Chevening and Downing Street, say sources




www.theguardian.com


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## MollySmith

For context Paulsgrove ‘Pantry’ is a food bank. ‘Members’ are families who along with 14m families in U.K. who can’t afford to feed their kids. Somehow this is a cause for a photo op. 

In 2010 we had 35 food banks.
In December 2022 there are 1,200 banks supported by The Trussell Trust.


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## Happy Paws2

What is wrong with them why won't they talk to the unions.
Why are they blocking some talks.
Are they trying to kill us.

WHY are they just sitting there saying it's not our fault and we can't do anything, YES it is and YES they can.

They really are driving me nuts, every time time a minister comes on the TV I feel like slapping him/her, what is the point of them they aren't listening to us.


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> What is wrong with them why won't they talk to the unions.
> Why are they blocking some talks.
> Are they trying to kill us.
> 
> WHY are they just sitting there saying it's not our fault and we can't do anything, YES it is and YES they can.
> 
> They really are driving me nuts, every time time a minister comes on the TV I feel like slapping him/her, what is the point of them they aren't listening to us.


It feels like they've taken up the drawbridge, brought down the portcullis and going to ignore everyone until they starve and have to go back to to work, whilst hoping some parts of the press will make the public turn against Lynch (the Daily Mail and Sun already have and... this is painful.... are the most widely read papers in the UK . It's almost the same as the Miners Strike but if Sunak thinks he's as popular as Thatcher (in some people's opinion, not mine) than he's much mistaken.


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## Happy Paws2

MollySmith said:


> It feels like they've taken up the drawbridge, brought down the portcullis and going to ignore everyone until they starve and have to go back to to work, whilst hoping some parts of the press will make the public turn against Lynch (the Daily Mail and Sun already have and... this is painful.... are the most widely read papers in the UK .* It's almost the same as the Miners Strike* *but if Sunak thinks he's as popular as Thatcher (in some people's opinion, not mine) than he's much mistaken.*



But this time the PR*T is trying to take on whole country and he doesn't care if people die.


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> But this time the PR*T is trying to take on whole country and he doesn't care if people die.


Sadly I agree. But, for all the bad stuff it does, social media (when tamed) does mean that we're better informed than we were back in the 1980s when we only had newspapers I guess. I hope that those striking know how much they are supported.


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## Happy Paws2

Are they really going to sit on their hands and just let this happen


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## Calvine

MollySmith said:


> View attachment 581174
> 
> 
> 
> For context Paulsgrove ‘Pantry’ is a food bank. ‘Members’ are families who along with 14m families in U.K. who can’t afford to feed their kids. Somehow this is a cause for a photo op.
> 
> In 2010 we had 35 food banks.
> In December 2022 there are 1,200 banks supported by The Trussell Trust.


Even with all the food banks, this country still (allegedly) bins something like 10 million tons of edible food annually. You have to hope that they are used by people who genuinely need them. I know of one doubtful case.


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## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> Are they really going to sit on their hands and just let this happen


Unbelievable. Notice traffic wardens never strike! I read that RMT had rejected a 9% offer - however much more do they want?


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## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> Unbelievable. Notice traffic wardens never strike! I read that RMT had rejected a 9% offer - however much more do they want?


 I don't think it as much to do with money as the terms that are tried to it.


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## Calvine

Happy Paws2 said:


> I don't think it as much to do with money as the terms that are tried to it.


But a large number wanted to accept the offer, or so I read.


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## Lurcherlad

Calvine said:


> But a large number wanted to accept the offer, or so I read.


A “rail expert” on tv the other day said that separating pay from the terms & conditions negotiations would likely see an early acceptance of the pay deal and avoid the strikes.

The terms & conditions can then be hashed out without all this mayhem for the fare paying public and businesses who are already struggling post covid and now the cost of living crisis.

There never seems to be a common sense approach 🙄


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## Calvine

Lurcherlad said:


> the fare paying public


Fares which, of course, are due to go up 5.9% in March. Apparently only about 80% of them actually bothered to vote, so you have to imagine that many of them are quite happy with their lot.


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## catz4m8z

My hospital has ambulances backed up, patients lining the corridors and they are even setting them up in random out patient depts out of desperation.  (and thats with no strikes here).
Im beginning to think that the only thing that will work on this government is a full scale revolution!


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## MollySmith

*Claim in the media *Rail unions rejected an 8% pay rise, which is bigger than the pay deal offered to nurses.

*The facts: *This pay rise covers a two year period, 4% each year, whereas the pay increase given to nurses covers a 12-month period. A nurse earning the average nurse’s basic pay will receive an increase of approximately 4%.

Here's the link and more information. 8% pay offer for rail workers covers a longer period than the deal offered to nurses - Full Fact


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## MollySmith

Duplicated info


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## MollySmith

Calvine said:


> Even with all the food banks, this country still (allegedly) bins something like 10 million tons of edible food annually. You have to hope that they are used by people who genuinely need them. I know of one doubtful case.


The foodbank that I volunteer for have an application process based on referral.

According to a report by The Grocer, supermarkets throw away 100,000 of edible food annually in the UK alone. In fact, it's estimated that the UK's total food waste could feed upwards of 30 million people a year. Some supermarkets do donate food to the foodbank, not all. 740,000 tonnes of food surplus comes from manufacturing, retail and hospitality and food service according to WRAP but their report was from 2021 and that predates the latest cost of living crisis. Either way waste is very unlikely to be found in a foodbank.

Food banks welcome volunteers if you want to find out more up close.


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## huckybuck

We had a Royal Mail delivery this morning. I said I thought you weren’t coming today and he said not everyone agrees with the strike so we are working and trying to get everyone’s stuff to them for Christmas. I wish I had given him the Christmas bonus I gave to my normal postie who obviously is striking lol!!!


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## Siskin

huckybuck said:


> We had a Royal Mail delivery this morning. I said I thought you weren’t coming today and he said not everyone agrees with the strike so we are working and trying to get everyone’s stuff to them for Christmas. I wish I had given him the Christmas bonus I gave to my normal postie who obviously is striking lol!!!


Oh that’s interesting as I thought they were on strike today, but have just received some post. That’s really good of them. Wish I had known and would have given a bonus too. 
We do tend to have a regular postie, as the last one retired last year and I haven’t really worked out who is the regular one is yet as we seem to have several different ones at the moment, probably down to the strikes I guess. I know part of the reason they are striking is due to some changes which could lead to some villages only getting post twice a week and no regular postie which will make it difficult round this village as there are no road names. All the other delivery companies have problems locating houses despite post codes and satnavs


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## MollySmith

Siskin said:


> Oh that’s interesting as I thought they were on strike today, but have just received some post. That’s really good of them. Wish I had known and would have given a bonus too.
> We do tend to have a regular postie, as the last one retired last year and I haven’t really worked out who is the regular one is yet as we seem to have several different ones at the moment, probably down to the strikes I guess. I know part of the reason they are striking is due to some changes which could lead to some villages only getting post twice a week and no regular postie which will make it difficult round this village as there are no road names. All the other delivery companies have problems locating houses despite post codes and satnavs


You may get a delivery tomorrow? I think we are but if not I’ve kept mine here for next week. I’ve wrapped up a big tin of chocolate and a garden token as our postie got my birthday flowers from the depot when he saw we were going on hols and had Keepsafe on and they would‘ve died. He remembered they were from Bloom and Wild as he loves gardening. Really lovely chap.


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## HarlequinCat

.


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## MollySmith

For those who can afford the electric, here is Conservative MP for Taunton with her cheery little Christmas tip. She is the environment minister responsible for water pollution


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## Calvine

huckybuck said:


> We had a Royal Mail delivery this morning. I said I thought you weren’t coming today and he said not everyone agrees with the strike so we are working and trying to get everyone’s stuff to them for Christmas. I wish I had given him the Christmas bonus I gave to my normal postie who obviously is striking lol!!!


I always give my Yodel (Zooplus) guy a thank you card with a tenner in it as I am genuinely grateful and really impressed by the way he does what can't be the most rewarding job in the world.


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## Siskin

My mother who lived through the last war, always reused wrapping paper until it fell apart. Also saved string to wrap presents up rather then sellotape. For years I saved paper too. Now don’t use wrapping paper, I‘ve got a number of Christmas or pretty bags of various shapes and sizes which I reuse, much easier.


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## MollySmith

Siskin said:


> My mother who lived through the last war, always reused wrapping paper until it fell apart. Also saved string to wrap presents up rather then sellotape. For years I saved paper too. Now don’t use wrapping paper, I‘ve got a number of Christmas or pretty bags of various shapes and sizes which I reuse, much easier.


I use fabric, though this year because I’m still not over Covid, we’re gifting book tokens. It was the easiest solution.

Many folk cannot afford gifts, never mind iron paper and her attention needs to be on the larger issue of water pollution and sewage in the sea. It’s poorly timed and from an inappropriate person, in my opinion.


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## Happy Paws2

I just don't believe this....(seen on the BBC homepage)

*£20 daily bonus for troops covering Christmas strikes*


Published
9 hours ago

Share







IMAGE SOURCE,PA MEDIA
Image caption,

Around 650 armed forces personnel were drafted in to cover ambulance strikes this week
*Military personnel covering public sector strikes over the Christmas period are to be paid daily bonuses of £20.*
The Ministry of Defence said the payments were for those asked to step in from 19 December to 2 January.


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## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> I just don't believe this....(seen on the BBC homepage)
> 
> *£20 daily bonus for troops covering Christmas strikes*
> 
> 
> Published
> 9 hours ago
> 
> Share
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMAGE SOURCE,PA MEDIA
> Image caption,
> 
> Around 650 armed forces personnel were drafted in to cover ambulance strikes this week
> *Military personnel covering public sector strikes over the Christmas period are to be paid daily bonuses of £20.*
> The Ministry of Defence said the payments were for those asked to step in from 19 December to 2 January.


They have no idea what they are doing have they?
How do they think that will make the nurses and ambulance crews feel?
Idiots the lot of them, Living inside their own little bubbles inside their own heads!!


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## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> They have no idea what they are doing have they?
> How do they think that will make the nurses and ambulance crews feel?
> Idiots the lot of them, Living inside their own little bubbles inside their own heads!!


We've had some bad governments before, but this one really takes the biscuit, they have know idea what they are doing,


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## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> We've had some bad governments before, but this one really takes the biscuit, they have know idea what they are doing,


I've never seen anything like it.........not through all those years ending with the winter of discontent. I know a lot of people here hate Thatcher, but at least she was doing what she thought right for the benefit of the people. This lot are just out for themselves
I think the rot started with Tony Blair, got a lot worse with David Cameron and has gone totally corrupt since then


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> I just don't believe this....(seen on the BBC homepage)
> 
> *£20 daily bonus for troops covering Christmas strikes*
> 
> 
> Published
> 9 hours ago
> 
> Share
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMAGE SOURCE,PA MEDIA
> Image caption,
> 
> Around 650 armed forces personnel were drafted in to cover ambulance strikes this week
> *Military personnel covering public sector strikes over the Christmas period are to be paid daily bonuses of £20.*
> The Ministry of Defence said the payments were for those asked to step in from 19 December to 2 January.


 I despair. Number 10 must be on a different planet.

I just read that King Charles has donated money to fuel bill charity, good on him but it’s now apparently acceptable for the head of state to pick up the mess laden into us by the government’s inability to deal with fuel companies and shareholders.


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## Happy Paws2

rona said:


> I've never seen anything like it.........not through all those years ending with the winter of discontent. I know a lot of people here hate Thatcher, but at least she was doing what she thought right for the benefit of the people. This lot are just out for themselves
> I think the rot started with Tony Blair, got a lot worse with David Cameron and has gone totally corrupt since then


The real rot and corruption was with Boris and the lies his told us from day one, I just can't upstand how so many people were fooled by him, that's one of the reasons we are is the mess we are today.

He promised us millions for the NHS and new hospitals when we came out of the EU, where are they, as I said lie after lie after lie. and for this government well words fail me.


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## MollySmith

Happy Paws2 said:


> We've had some bad governments before, but this one really takes the biscuit, they have know idea what they are doing,


It looks like all the messaging is for the Conservative voters now, they’re not even trying to address anything else. It’s seems like a tactical move with a focus on keeping the party and Sunak in power until the general election. Nothing that’s come out of number 10 or PMQs, or any Tory MP social media addresses lately hints at the problems that affect those who may well not vote for them. It feels like a close ranks and wait it out approach, blame someone else and use Murdoch and the Daily Wail as influencers.

People will die at their hands from poverty and their breaking down of the NHS and vital services, I’ve no doubt that workers on strike will be amongst them.


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## HarlequinCat

It's hard, I wouldn't even know who to vote for in the next election. Conservatives just bumble about without much of a plan. Labour I don't agree with most of their policies or I think they are unrealistic. There's no real middle ground party that put people first. They all seem out for themselves


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## rona

Happy Paws2 said:


> The real rot and corruption was with Boris and the lies his told us from day one, I just can't upstand how so many people were fooled by him, that's one of the reasons we are is the mess we are today.
> 
> He promised us millions for the NHS and new hospitals when we came out of the EU, where are they, as I said lie after lie after lie. and for this government well words fail me.


While I think he was stupid. I still think he would have made a good PM, had he had the right backing and not the charlatans he did have.
I still blame Cummings for a lot of what happened. I think he set a few people up


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## rona

HarlequinCat said:


> It's hard, I wouldn't even know who to vote for in the next election. Conservatives just bumble about without much of a plan. Labour I don't agree with most of their policies or I think they are unrealistic. There's no real middle ground party that put people first. They all seem out for themselves


I was going to vote Labour to try and make sure the Conservatives didn't get back in, but after Starmer backs Sturgeons anti women stance, that's a no go


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## rona




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## Calvine

rona said:


> They have no idea what they are doing have they?
> How do they think that will make the nurses and ambulance crews feel?
> Idiots the lot of them, Living inside their own little bubbles inside their own heads!!


 I am not taking sides here - but I did notice that when it was suggested that troops should cover for striking ambulance drivers, many people pointed out that troops actually earn a fair bit less than ambulance drivers so they ought to be given something to bring their cover pay up to the same as an actual ambulance driver - so maybe this is the reckoning behind it. 
_TBH I have no idea what either of them gets_, but I imagine that troops normally get some sort of accommodation included in what they get paid?


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## Happy Paws2

Calvine said:


> _TBH I have no idea what either of them gets_, but I imagine that troops normally get some sort of accommodation included in what they get paid?


*The Armed Forces and families are able to live in high quality subsidised accommodation both in UK and overseas, either at or close to their place of work*. This recognises the fact that personnel move frequently, often to remote parts of the country.


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## Jobeth

Happy Paws2 said:


> *The Armed Forces and families are able to live in high quality subsidised accommodation both in UK and overseas, either at or close to their place of work*. This recognises the fact that personnel move frequently, often to remote parts of the country.


I wouldn’t describe it as ‘high quality’!


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## Calvine

Jobeth said:


> I wouldn’t describe it as ‘high quality’!


I believe some if it was deemed unfit for asylum seekers to live in; Napier House rings a bell.


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## Siskin

Jobeth said:


> I wouldn’t describe it as ‘high quality’!


Can’t answer for everywhere, but the armed forces accommodation in West Berlin was amazing, far better then the semi we owned in the UK. But maybe that is just Germany


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## Jobeth

Siskin said:


> Can’t answer for everywhere, but the armed forces accommodation in West Berlin was amazing, far better then the semi we owned in the UK. But maybe that is just Germany

















My friend’s RAF house in the UK was basic and not something I’d choose to live in.


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## MollySmith

Simon Pegg on Sunak and more maths: "If you governed the UK today with its 20% higher death rate than last year what would be your priority? Mine would NOT be maths and science education."


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## MollySmith

You can’t eat a flippin’ maths book,’ says Darin Allen, Owner and Founder of the Ballymaloe Cookery School in Shanagarry, to a round of applause. ‘I hope I live to see the day when we have practical cooking, gardening and foraging embedded in the school curriculum." 

(Me too. Home economics taught me the basics of cooking. I confess that sewing simply told me I was hopeless with needles - both the sewing and medical kind)


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## Linda Weasel

It would be better if the education powers that be accepted that not all children are academic, and that judging schools only on pupils’ academic achievements is wrong.

Look instead at where their kids have finished up; are they doing apprenticeships, are they in jobs with a future, have they set up their own little businesses?

I know several youngsters (my own included) who were hopeless/disruptive/sometimes excluded from school, who have gone on to do really great things.

Without a Maths GCSE between them.


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## ForestWomble

MollySmith said:


> You can’t eat a flippin’ maths book,’ says Darin Allen, Owner and Founder of the Ballymaloe Cookery School in Shanagarry, to a round of applause. *‘I hope I live to see the day when we have practical cooking, gardening and foraging embedded in the school curriculum.*"
> 
> (Me too. Home economics taught me the basics of cooking. I confess that sewing simply told me I was hopeless with needles - both the sewing and medical kind)


That would be fantastic. 

We had Home Economics at school (only for years 7 - 9 (12 - 14years old), unless you chose to do it for GCSE, which only myself and three others in my year did), but we were only taught simple baking, nothing about practical cookery like how to make a meal. 
We didn't have any other practical lessons really, think we got a taster of 'textiles' for half a term, but all I remember of that was the teacher quickly getting fed up of trying to show me what to do as a left handed person and me failing the class because I couldn't do the stitch we had to do on the thing we'd made. 

I think children should be taught how to cook simple meals, how to make in bulk, and how to safely divide into portions and store and reheat. 

How to mend clothing. 

Simple household tasks likes changing a fuse, manage money, etc etc

Growing food and foraging. 

I did a bit of foraging with my Grandparents (mainly for blackberries), and would of loved to have that as a lesson.


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## MollySmith

Linda Weasel said:


> It would be better if the education powers that be accepted that not all children are academic, and that judging schools only on pupils’ academic achievements is wrong.
> 
> Look instead at where their kids have finished up; are they doing apprenticeships, are they in jobs with a future, have they set up their own little businesses?
> 
> I know several youngsters (my own included) who were hopeless/disruptive/sometimes excluded from school, who have gone on to do really great things.
> 
> Without a Maths GCSE between them.


Exactly. I have no maths qualification at all, failed it completely yet run my own business, set budgets, do my accounts and look after all our household accounts. And I need it on the daily for my work in design in measurements and scale. I'm far from alone. 

So many I know have dyscalculia and would be so worried about this. 

And good for your children, well done them.


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## MollySmith

ForestWomble said:


> That would be fantastic.
> 
> We had Home Economics at school (only for years 7 - 9 (12 - 14years old), unless you chose to do it for GCSE, which only myself and three others in my year did), but we were only taught simple baking, nothing about practical cookery like how to make a meal.
> We didn't have any other practical lessons really, think we got a taster of 'textiles' for half a term, but all I remember of that was the teacher quickly getting fed up of trying to show me what to do as a left handed person and me failing the class because I couldn't do the stitch we had to do on the thing we'd made.
> 
> I think children should be taught how to cook simple meals, how to make in bulk, and how to safely divide into portions and store and reheat.
> 
> How to mend clothing.
> 
> Simple household tasks likes changing a fuse, manage money, etc etc
> 
> Growing food and foraging.
> 
> I did a bit of foraging with my Grandparents (mainly for blackberries), and would of loved to have that as a lesson.


Cooking and batch cooking is maths. I think baking is science. It's more than what it seems in my opinion; my other half who can't cook thinks it's magic! I am rarely privileged in that we did some of it at school and my mum, who didn't work due to her mental health, was around to show me on the good days. It's certainly taught me not to be scared of baking and to give it a go. I can look at our veg box and easily get some meals together and our food bill is sensible (and I can reduce it) because I can cook in season and meat free. 

But I was lucky - these days parents are being hammered with child care costs and exhausted. Those who who are not parents, struggling to also make ends meet, esp. those who live alone. Which means there's a whole generation or two that were never taught to cook. That's not me being patronising, my dad was the only wage earner and low paid rail staff, we had to make do and mend to a degree but seemed to have more practical help available to us that seems lacking.

Mind you there are some great repair shops and food banks providing meal planning advice but I dunno, maybe I'm being rose tinted, learning at school means it's a life skill for all. 

I used to love foraging as a kid with my mum - crab apples, blackberries, sloes.


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