# Cesar back on UK TV



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Nice to see him back. His methods dont please everyone, but the TV shows fix people isssues with their dogs.
Just seen the programs a few times, he does seem to pick owners that are very soft with their dogs. My dog likes to watch too.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*Lol...... Get your tin hat ready with this thread*.:lol::lol::lol:


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I've got my popcorn and bottle of fizz ready :wink5:


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Cesar is using his children to help him, not very PC, but very good for the kids.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I noticed this was on at the weekend, I used to love his shows. But I didn't watch because of some of the things that have been pointed out about him


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2015)

El Cid said:


> Cesar is using his children to help him, not very PC, but very good for the kids.


I don't know what show you're talking about, but I am curious as to why you think including kids in the training is a problem?
My own kids often get called on to help with all sorts of training situations.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I don't know what show you're talking about, but I am curious as to why you think including kids in the training is a problem?
> My own kids often get called on to help with all sorts of training situations.


Indeed. Although I suspect your training situations don't involve things like hitting dogs in the face! Although I'm sure not even Cesar Milan would let children use some of his more questionable methods...


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)




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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Is this a new UK series of his, or repeats of his first series done over here?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

El Cid said:


> Cesar is using his children to help him, not very PC, but very good for the kids.


Yeah, just what we need - a whole new generation of bullies who think dogs need pack leaders. Why is this idiot allowed in the country, never mind on our televisions, polluting my living room and frightening my cat.ut:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

El Cid said:


> Nice to see him back. His methods dont please everyone, but the TV shows fix people isssues with their dogs.
> Just seen the programs a few times, he does seem to pick owners that are very soft with their dogs. My dog likes to watch too.


In what way does he "fix" issues? The programmes are heavily edited and we never see his failures.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Old Shep said:


> In what way does he "fix" issues? The programmes are heavily edited and we never see his failures.


I am sure that could be said about any TV program.

He was getting a dog, with the help of his chidren, which was aggressive to everyone, to the vets. I didnt see all the program.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

SHHHHH dont tell Jaxon or he will start rolling me over onto my back and kicking me in the nuts again....


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I have actually enjoyed watching his programmes again. I used to be a fan and then changed my mind so when I initially saw he was back on TV my immediate reaction was that I wasnt going to watch him then I decided to view them with fresh eyes.

I dont agree with many of his methods and I have noticed that his training isnt actually fixing most of the problems people say they are having (such as 2 dogs in the same house fighting but he takes them outside and all we see is them walking side by side, how does that fix the problem of them indoors, I wanna see them go back inside!) but I think as a person, he is extremely likeable (if we take dogs out of the equation) who has a warm personality and a good sense of humour.


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## catpud (Nov 9, 2013)

Not a fan of his training techniques at all really, but there are some things that I already use in my training that he mentions - they are not unique to him concepts and are talked about by plenty of trainers, so basically he comes up with nothing usable that is new or a revelation. 

I agree with the keeping calm, keeping the lead slack and not tensing it up - this can cause aggressive dogs to react - if your body language is conveying "oh crap, my dog is going to be a nightmare in this situation" and you shorten the lead and hold it tight and taught is it really so surprising when your dog actually does blow up? 

I think we can learn something from every trainer - sometimes that will mean you pick up on one or two ideas that work with your dog (for example using a time out when the dog gets too wound up, waiting for it to calm down before continuing) sometimes that will mean we learn how not to do things, both are useful


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

El Cid said:


> Cesar is using his children to help him, not very PC, but very good for the kids.


Let's just hope he's not using the same methods that get him bitten on a regular basis then if he's using children to help.


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## karmacookie (Nov 9, 2014)

I agree, you can learn from people getting it wrong. what channel and time is it on?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

karmacookie said:


> I agree, you can learn from people getting it wrong. what channel and time is it on?


So what are you saying? It doesn't matter if all those poor dogs suffer as long as you learn how not to do it? Sorry, but there is no excuse for getting it wrong where it comes to animals.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> So what are you saying? It doesn't matter if all those poor dogs suffer as long as you learn how not to do it? Sorry, but there is no excuse for getting it wrong where it comes to animals.


*To be fair, i'm sure Cesar isn't the only one to have made mistakes.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair, i'm sure Cesar isn't the only one to have made mistakes.*


He's the only one to have made a fortune out of it and put dogs at risk. I thought you had come to your senses anyway?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> He's the only one to have made a fortune out of it and put dogs at risk. I thought you had come to your senses anyway?


*lol I've opened my eyes, but i won't say i dislike him.
I wonder how many people thought Barbara Woodhouse was the best thing in her time. But i bet she made loads of mistakes.
Just saying... i am being good though.*


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

JANICE199 said:


> *lol I've opened my eyes, but i won't say i dislike him.
> I wonder how many people thought Barbara Woodhouse was the best thing in her time. But i bet she made loads of mistakes.
> Just saying... i am being good though.*


I can't pretend to know much about Barbara Woodhouse. We didn't have a dog when she was on telly so I didn't take much notice; I just remember she was a bit of a joke with her 'walkies!' But did she ever get bitten because she pushed a dog too far? Did she ever turn a normal mutt into an aggressive, terrified dog? If Victoria Stilwell makes a mistake, no harm to the dog. I hate him, and I won't pretend otherwise. He has put dog training back donkey's years. But I am glad you are beginning to see sense


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair, i'm sure Cesar isn't the only one to have made mistakes.*


No, he's not. But Cesars mistakes are extremely costly to a hell of a lot of people and dogs, not just the relatively few dogs he works with. He's an international "star" who reaches millions of people, directly and indirectly, and his methods are dubious at best, abusive at worst and likely to get people bitten.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

karmacookie said:


> I agree, you can learn from people getting it wrong. what channel and time is it on?


Right and a broken clock still gets it right twice a day. 
The problem is, CM isnt pointing out what hes doing wrong, hes marketing his wrong as effective training to the detriment of many dogs and their owners.


JANICE199 said:


> *To be fair, i'm sure Cesar isn't the only one to have made mistakes.*


Youre absolutely right, the top trainers are the top trainers because theyve made more mistakes than the rest of us have made attempts.
But as above, these top trainers arent marketing their mistakes as effective training. Theyre saying you know, I used to do X, Y, Z, and found it caused __ and ___ problems, so now, I do __ and ___.

Thats not what CM is doing (or was last time I watched). He gets bitten, - a LOT. He ends up breaking up dog fights - a LOT. You would think at this point in his vast experience, he would know how to prevent those things happening at all.

And the thing is, most of the time you can see the bite or dog fight coming a mile away.

Which means, either a) hes too stupid about dogs to notice the 101 signals theyre giving off that the $hit is about to hit the fan, or b) he does know the $hit is about to hit the fan and allows it to happen for the sake of sensationalistic TV.

Take this video for example. 
[youtube_browser]DxImB7UQPG8[/youtube_browser]
For anyone with half a modicum of dog experience this is a fight we all knew was going to happen. The dogs in question have a long history of fights with each other and other dogs, the one is throwing calming signals like crazy, the fight is pretty much a done deal right from the start.

So either hes a total nincompoop that has no clue about the most basic of clues that tell you the odds of dogs fighting are huge, or he did indeed know that these two dogs were going to fight, and allowed it to happen. The editing to show the whole chaos of the fight, the gratuitous zoom-in on the bloodied face makes me lean towards the for the sake of entertainment explanation. Which frankly is just sick.

So lets assume he knew this was going to happen. Why, on gods green earth is neither dog muzzled?!? Why are there 14 other dogs roaming about that also get aroused and have to be broken up? 
And most importantly, if he deliberately put two dogs together that he knew were going to end up fighting, and allowed it to happen for the sake of TV entertainment, how does that make him any different than an illegal dogfighter in some inner city basement? Because he has a winning smile and Hollywood backing? Sorry, but that doesnt fly with me.

Personally, I find it disturbing that he has been able to make a career out of exploiting dogs like this. But hey, reality TV being what it is... Well, to each their own eh?


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

That clip above should be made available to watch as it tells you what *not *to do with dogs that are aroused and is a good example of how to *ignore* canine body language at your peril 

Exactly what was supposed to be learnt by those dogs I have no idea.

It's an old TV series. Caught a bit of it last night .... just enough to make me 

Watched him face off another resource guarder. Please owners do not try this at home.

J


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't think he has a clue about dog body language. I have seen a dog on his show giving out all sorts of calming signals and this idiot declaring 'that's excitement'. We all saw the Labrador with the food guarding problem who ended up biting him. What did he say? 'I didn't see that coming'. Well, he was the only one who didn't. Personally, I think he is such an egomaniac he really believes all the dogs will do what he wants, despite their previous behaviour, simply because he says so.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> So either hes a total nincompoop that has no clue about the most basic of clues that tell you the odds of dogs fighting are huge, or he did indeed know that these two dogs were going to fight, and allowed it to happen. The editing to show the whole chaos of the fight, the gratuitous zoom-in on the bloodied face makes me lean towards the for the sake of entertainment explanation. Which frankly is just sick.


Apart from the dogs being put into the situation in the first place and everything else you have said the bit that really stuck in my throat was at the end he places blame on the owners of the dog..."Hey lets swap dogs, as yours was fine until you got here" :nonod:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It's a good show to show you what not to do and with reading up on body language and it muted a terrifying example of stress signals. Other than that no, although I've heard rumours he's trying clicker training hmy:.

One of the worst misreading of body language for me was Cotton the american eskimo. He was cowering in his crate shaking, with Cesar looming over him all intimidating. Cesar turns away, frantic barking to try and get him away, he lunged back around and scared the poor thing half to death. Still shaking and cowering and he put a paw up, which is a sign of don't hurt me and Cesar called it dominance . And no he didn't fix Cotton, the poor thing had it's teeth filed down because he made his aggression worse and Cesar's only solution was a permanent muzzle.

He has some downright dangerous husbandry advice too like throwing 2 just neutered males and a just spayed female who was still out of it back into the pack, putting a 10 week old dalmatian on the treadmill, dragging giant breed dogs up the stairs, trying to force a clearly sick and in pain chi mix to walk by putting it in with a pack of large dogs for them to shove around.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Nicky10 said:


> It's a good show to show you what not to do and with reading up on body language and it muted a terrifying example of stress signals. Other than that no, although I've heard rumours he's trying clicker training hmy:.
> 
> One of the worst misreading of body language for me was Cotton the american eskimo. He was cowering in his crate shaking, with Cesar looming over him all intimidating. Cesar turns away, frantic barking to try and get him away, he lunged back around and scared the poor thing half to death. Still shaking and cowering and he put a paw up, which is a sign of don't hurt me and Cesar called it dominance . And no he didn't fix Cotton, the poor thing had it's teeth filed down because he made his aggression worse and Cesar's only solution was a permanent muzzle.
> 
> He has some downright dangerous husbandry advice too like throwing 2 just neutered males and a just spayed female who was still out of it back into the pack, putting a 10 week old dalmatian on the treadmill, dragging giant breed dogs up the stairs, trying to force a clearly sick and in pain chi mix to walk by putting it in with a pack of large dogs for them to shove around.


Yes this poor dog 
[youtube_browser]XKMkkOyy5yg[/youtube_browser]


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## marasmum (Jun 12, 2013)

Whilst dog training, like dog food, is something that will always cause debate I personally think one problem is with CM and his methods is that he is the only person given a lot of air time to dog training atm.

We (the royal we) have nothing to counter him with. There is no TV programme that educates, in terms of how a hooman should behave around a dog or different training methods and approaches that exists.

As is evident by this thread SOME things he does may be OK, but if you are a complete novice and new to dog ownership, how on earth on you going to separate the ***** from the good? Of course we will say, research the breed, find a 'good' training class/trainer/behaviourist (as needed) however, this again is subjective as seen here on PF. 

I also think that the Paul O'Grady programme was a missed opportunity in that it could have been extended and included a pragmatic and common sense10/20 minute slot on breed characteristics, body language (hooman and doggy!) and training methods, as this programme was popular with dog and non dog owners alike.

For my part I dislike CM intensely, my heart breaks when I see the reaction from some of the dogs, it puts me in mind of when Mara first came to us, submissive and afraid


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

marasmum said:


> For my part I dislike CM intensely, my heart breaks when I see the reaction from some of the dogs, it puts me in mind of when Mara first came to us, submissive and afraid


His shows deal with some serious dog mis-behaviour, so I would not dismis his talent with dogs. I do believe that posative reward is the bet way to train your dog, which CM does not show on TV.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

But he doesn't fix them. I read an episode guide written by the producers of the series for the first 2 series of it. Many of the dogs were either rehomed or the owners learned to live with the issues. Other trainers manage to work with aggressive dogs without getting bitten to show off as some kind of trophy.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

El Cid said:


> His shows deal with some serious dog mis-behaviour, so I would not dismis his talent with dogs. I do believe that posative reward is the bet way to train your dog, which CM does not show on TV.


Can you give examples of what you are talking about?

After several posts showing his total lack of understanding of dogs, where do you see a talent with dogs?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

marasmum said:


> Whilst dog training, like dog food, is something that will always cause debate I personally think one problem is with CM and his methods is that he is the only person given a lot of air time to dog training atm.
> 
> We (the royal we) have nothing to counter him with. There is no TV programme that educates, in terms of how a hooman should behave around a dog or different training methods and approaches that exists.
> 
> ...


Excellent post and so right too. This is what is missing with the absence of Victoria Stilwell and people like her.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

El Cid said:


> His shows deal with some serious dog mis-behaviour, so I would not dismis his talent with dogs. I do believe that posative reward is the bet way to train your dog, which CM does not show on TV.


Talent? What talent? He does not show positive training because he has no idea how to do that; he is a bully, pure and simple. A lot of behaviour he deals with is not serious, just what the narrator says; in fact I have seen dogs on his programme who are doing nothing but behaving like a normal dog and he comes along declaring he is dominant and the poor dog ends up snapping at everyone. He is an idiot who should not be allowed anywhere near a dog.


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## Clare7435 (Dec 17, 2009)

I actually like some of his methods ...some I don't, like Victoria Stillwell...Some stuff I find useful some I don't...this kind of thing I will watch and take what I need from but always end up doing my own way anyway...I have his books though, quite interesting


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

He's certainly very talented at making dogs afraid and shutting them down. And at getting himself bitten.

Quite frankly though, I would not call anyone who didn't see that bite coming from Holly the Lab talented with dogs. And in his own words he didn't see that coming. Poor dog could not have been more clear about her intentions.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> Excellent post and so right too. This is what is missing with the absence of Victoria Stilwell and people like her.


I dont think there are a shortage of very talented dog trainers. In the US we have some amazing folks who are very well known in the dog community. Michael Ellis, Forrest Micke, Denise Fenzi, Suzanne Clothier, Susan Garrett (well, she is Canadian but well happily claim her ), and of course Emily Larlham who up and left us 
And these are just a tiny spec of the tremendous talent that is out there any of which could take any of the difficult cases CM works with and put him to shame in 5 minutes or less. 
Not to mention, I cant possibly be the only one who has noticed he doesnt work with working-line malinois or a fila brasiliero gone bad. So the whole he works with dogs no one else will thing is kind of a joke if you ask me.

The problem is (I think), that people dont want to do their homework and search for a good trainer, they want to be wooed and wowed by a showman. So, if you ask for a showman, thats what youll get. If you go looking for an amazing, talented, trainer who can work will all breeds and types of dogs, and work with owners to prepare a dog for the highest level of competition or simply to have an easy, enjoyable house dogs, then there are no shortage of those trainers either. Theyre just out there doing what they do, not marketing themselves.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Problem with the positive reinforcement based trainers is that it would make for horrendously boring tv. You don't put the dog into the position where it reacts like dogs on CMs show do. You work the dog below threshold, at a level where they can think and learn and you take it at their pace. For those of us who really enjoy training and behaviour mod type stuff I'm sure it would be fantastic to watch. But for your average dog owner and tv viewer? It would be deadly boring, there's no entertainment value in it.

So it's the ones like CM with their dramatic showmanship methods who get all the media attention. Because that's what people want to see. They want to be entertained. And for all I dislike his methods, CM is charismatic and talks a good talk. Even if I don't agree with 99% off it the way he says what he says, the way he clearly believes in what he's doing...it makes him seem a professional. Unfortunately.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I dont think there are a shortage of very talented dog trainers. In the US we have some amazing folks who are very well known in the dog community. Michael Ellis, Forrest Micke, Denise Fenzi, Suzanne Clothier, Susan Garrett (well, she is Canadian but well happily claim her ), and of course Emily Larlham who up and left us
> And these are just a tiny spec of the tremendous talent that is out there any of which could take any of the difficult cases CM works with and put him to shame in 5 minutes or less.
> Not to mention, I cant possibly be the only one who has noticed he doesnt work with working-line malinois or a fila brasiliero gone bad. So the whole he works with dogs no one else will thing is kind of a joke if you ask me.
> 
> The problem is (I think), that people dont want to do their homework and search for a good trainer, they want to be wooed and wowed by a showman. So, if you ask for a showman, thats what youll get. If you go looking for an amazing, talented, trainer who can work will all breeds and types of dogs, and work with owners to prepare a dog for the highest level of competition or simply to have an easy, enjoyable house dogs, then there are no shortage of those trainers either. Theyre just out there doing what they do, not marketing themselves.


Yes, but we are talking about trainers on tv, and on British tv particularly. Not many people go out looking for good dog trainers, they expect the one on the telly to know what he is doing. That is the danger of the Dog Abuser.


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## Lulus mum (Feb 14, 2011)

Completely agree with the previous post.
The key words with C M are 
"ENTERTAINMENT" and"QUICK FIX".

Its like people watching a magician -things are changed and everyone thinks-how fantastic.
Plus they want their dog to change 
NOW 
not in a few weeks months or even years.

The happy smiley face and sparkly teeth add to his "charisma" for some people.
For me -it breaks my heart when I think of the damage he has done" fixing" dogs ,some of whom had no problems in the first place ,but C M was able to assert to their owners that they were displaying problems !

Is this a "trainer" or a "performing showman"
Certainly not one of the first and not a very good good one of the second.

Maureen


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

Sarah1983 said:


> Problem with the positive reinforcement based trainers is that it would make for horrendously boring tv. You don't put the dog into the position where it reacts like dogs on CMs show do. You work the dog below threshold, at a level where they can think and learn and you take it at their pace. For those of us who really enjoy training and behaviour mod type stuff I'm sure it would be fantastic to watch. But for your average dog owner and tv viewer? It would be deadly boring, there's no entertainment value in it.
> 
> So it's the ones like CM with their dramatic showmanship methods who get all the media attention. Because that's what people want to see. They want to be entertained. And for all I dislike his methods, CM is charismatic and talks a good talk. Even if I don't agree with 99% off it the way he says what he says, the way he clearly believes in what he's doing...it makes him seem a professional. Unfortunately.


No there really isnt any general public entertainment value in good b-mod is there?

And honestly, unless you know what youre looking at, a lot of really cool stuff is totally unimpressive to the general public.

Ill never forget, one of the first demos I did with Bates was for a health and wellness fair - not dog related, related to kid/dog safety. So we go through the whole demo of how to cue a dog to sit using kids bringing their hands up to their chest - a great safety cue to teach dogs, especially big dogs. We did that demo which I though was really good, then we demoed some basic obedience/heeling patterns. At the time Bates had just learned a really flashy flip finish that I was quite proud of, he did that too. Oh yeah, and we also did impulse control with dropping treats all around him and doing his hot-dog hold.

Finished our demo, then I put Bates in a down-stay while we cleaned up the stage and collected our props. You know what most impressed the audience? His down stay. :001_rolleyes: I was so disappointed :lol: The easiest cue, the one with the least criteria, easiest one to teach, *that* is what everyone gets excited about, and here I am all proud of our flip finish and no one even noticed. Hell, they probably though he was misbehaving for that one :lol:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Lulus mum said:


> Completely agree with the previous post.
> The key words with C M are
> "ENTERTAINMENT" and"QUICK FIX".
> 
> ...


Performing ape more like.


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## Amelia66 (Feb 15, 2011)

I admit i used to watch the show and liked it, from someone who knew nothing about dogs at the time he seems to get amazing results. However after being shown a video of him 'correcting' a dog and choking him till his tongue was blue i will never watch him again.

He advocates choke chains and prong collars as standard to get results that tells you everything about him. 


I don't like him or most of his methods.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

ouesi said:


> No there really isnt any general public entertainment value in good b-mod is there?
> 
> And honestly, unless you know what youre looking at, a lot of really cool stuff is totally unimpressive to the general public.
> 
> ...


Lmao, that's typical! It's the easiest things I've found people are most impressed by. The usual one for us is hand signals. I use them a hell of a lot, especially when talking to someone while I'm out with the dog and so many people have been absolutely amazed at my ability to teach my dog hand signals. Me? I'm far more impressed with myself when I manage to get that same behaviour solidly on a verbal cue :lol: Spens fetching and carrying impresses a lot too while the scent work games we play don't yet I find him using his nose to find something far more impressive than him carrying an item around.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> His shows deal with some serious dog mis-behaviour, so I would not dismis his talent with dogs. I do believe that posative reward is the bet way to train your dog, which CM does not show on TV.


I've not watched any of his TV programmes and only seen a couple of the videos posted on forums etc. I'm no trainer just an experienced owner who has had a variety of breeds from pup or from rescue, some with problems some without. I simply can't bear to watch this man or his followers at work, it reduces me to tears every time. Living with dogs is all about building trust/understanding and a relationship not forcing them to do something they are not comfortable with just to earn a fast buck or to make good TV viewing. I would not let him or any of his followers anywhere near my dogs. My last rottie had all sorts of what most would deem serious behavioural issues but it never entered my head to try and force her to do things or to dominate her. Who wants their dog so scared it pees itself with terror and crawls along on its belly


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

It sickens me that CM is given air time as a "trainer/behaviourist"! Remember, Millan has NO real credentials, so to put him on TV as a role model is just dangerous IMO.

This article says it all for me really...Mary Harwelik - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes, but we are talking about trainers on tv, and on British tv particularly. Not many people go out looking for good dog trainers, they expect the one on the telly to know what he is doing. That is the danger of the Dog Abuser.


Oh agreed, totally.

As for the man himself, meh, I dont know him, Im not comfortable making personal attacks on him as a human being.

As a dog trainer, he is well, hes not a dog trainer. He doesnt know what he is doing and his interactions often leave dogs worse off than when he started. So yes, what he does with dogs (which one really cant call training), is damaging and dangerous.

Now, if youre looking for someone with a face for TV who *does* have talent with dogs Ill watch Forrest Micke all day long


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Oh agreed, totally.
> 
> As for the man himself, meh, I dont know him, Im not comfortable making personal attacks on him as a human being.
> 
> ...


Anyone who can treat dogs the way he does and think it is all ok, is not someone I want to know. That being the case I feel perfectly justified in declaring that I hate him.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

I've watched CM programmes and read his biography.
I'm not a dog behaviourist, just a dedicated dog owner but I don't see where a lot of the posts in this thread are coming from.
CM originally gained his reputation dealing with big, aggressive, out of control dogs and I can see that some of his methods are possibly extreme because they are dealing with extreme cases. Only a fool would try and apply these methods to the average happy go lucky mutt.
To me he comes across as sincere and someone with an insight gained through observation. 
His observation that the farm dogs in Mexico, who by our standards might seem neglected, nevertheless did not display anywhere near the same abberant behaviours as some of the spoiled pets he has encountered since, and his resulting mantra of exercise, boundaries, affection appear good sense to me.
My own little girl is a happy, easy going dog by nature but I think it might help that we have always respected her doggy needs and given her consistent boundaries. Watching CM helped me understand the importance of these things.
And I am not impressed by quick fixes I don't believe in them.
Oh dear, I hope this post doesn't set the cat among the pigeons, please don't crucify me for speaking out of turn!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

There are better ways of dealing with aggressive dogs than choking them out and wrestling them to the ground





Do you really think he's fixed? I'm pretty sure he ended up for rehoming.

He doesn't know what he's doing and he uses outdated theories. This is the guy who came up with dominance theory





Walking your dogs and giving them clear consistent rules great but any trainer will tell you this.

My favourite episode was a pointer mix that went crazy at any dogs walking past. Cesar tried yanking on a prong collar, tsst, poking it in the neck, kicking it in the side nothing worked. Held a bit of cheese in front of it's nose as a very last resort and it worked


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Delilahdog said:


> I've watched CM programmes and read his biography.
> I'm not a dog behaviourist, just a dedicated dog owner but I don't see where a lot of the posts in this thread are coming from.
> CM originally gained his reputation dealing with big, aggressive, out of control dogs and I can see that some of his methods are possibly extreme because they are dealing with extreme cases. Only a fool would try and apply these methods to the average happy go lucky mutt.
> To me he comes across as sincere and someone with an insight gained through observation.
> ...


Yes, it makes sense, but it is not his mantra is it? It is common sense talked by a lot of qualified behaviourists. What you don't see on tv is that the dogs were not nearly so aggressive until he came along. Of course one respects a dogs needs as a dog - do you really need someone to tell you that? The problem with learning about dog behaviour by watching packs of half wild dogs, you then think you can behave like those dogs. You can't; you are not a dog and dogs are not too stupid not to know that. My dogs are both bigger and heavier than me so how do you imagine I get them to behave? Because they trust me, I have built up a relationship with them, that is how.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> I've watched CM programmes and read his biography.
> I'm not a dog behaviourist, just a dedicated dog owner but I don't see where a lot of the posts in this thread are coming from.
> CM originally gained his reputation dealing with big, aggressive, out of control dogs and I can see that some of his methods are possibly extreme because they are dealing with extreme cases. Only a fool would try and apply these methods to the average happy go lucky mutt.
> To me he comes across as sincere and someone with an insight gained through observation.
> ...


You are as entitled to express your opinion as anyone else is. Thing is some people will watch his programmes and think they can and should try his methods on their own dogs and that can have dangerous consequences. I've always owned big/powerful breeds too - german shepherds/rotties and those pesky pointers, used to have horses too and I've not controlled any of them by fear/dominance. Of course exercise/stimulation and training/boundaries are important but first and foremost should be the relationship and trust. I don't mean let the dog do what it wants, every relationship has its boundaries but I prefer my dogs to trust me not fear me.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes, it makes sense, but it is not his mantra is it? It is common sense talked by a lot of qualified behaviourists. What you don't see on tv is that the dogs were not nearly so aggressive until he came along. Of course one respects a dogs needs as a dog - do you really need someone to tell you that? The problem with learning about dog behaviour by watching packs of half wild dogs, you then think you can behave like those dogs. You can't; you are not a dog and dogs are not too stupid not to know that. My dogs are both bigger and heavier than me so how do you imagine I get them to behave? Because they trust me, I have built up a relationship with them, that is how.


As a brand new dog owner, then watching a programme that laid out these basic concepts was extremely helpful. I am not embarrassed to admit that.
'Of course one respects a dogs needs as a dog' I don't think so, there are many, many, many, owners who, although they love their pets simply don't get this and would much rather humanise them.
'What you don't see on tv is that the dogs were not nearly so aggressive until he came along' - I'd like to know if you can back that up, or is that just something you've read/heard that suits your perception of his methods?


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

Delilahdog said:


> CM originally gained his reputation dealing with big, aggressive, out of control dogs and I can see that some of his methods are possibly extreme because they are dealing with extreme cases.


He gained his reputation grooming small fluffies owned by the affluent in southern California. Jada Pinkett Smith was one of his clients, happened to like him, and paid for him to get lessons speaking English and in turn sell his calm submissive snake oil.

He doesnt work with extreme cases. Really, he doesnt. Any trainer worth their salt could handle twice what he handles and with far less drama and trauma.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Delilahdog said:


> As a brand new dog owner, then watching a programme that laid out these basic concepts was extremely helpful. I am not embarrassed to admit that.
> 'Of course one respects a dogs needs as a dog' I don't think so, there are many, many, many, owners who, although they love their pets simply don't get this and would much rather humanise them.
> 'What you don't see on tv is that the dogs were not nearly so aggressive until he came along' - I'd like to know if you can back that up, or is that just something you've read/heard that suits your perception of his methods?


How dare you? Yes, I can back that up. Try reading about some of the 'clients' who have sued him when he has damaged their dogs. When I see a reasonably friendly Labrador driven to the point of biting him because he doesn't have a clue how to cure or manage a simple problem like food guarding, I don't need to back anything up. I have eyes and thirty years experience of owning dogs.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Delilahdog said:


> I've watched CM programmes and read his biography.
> I'm not a dog behaviourist, just a dedicated dog owner but I don't see where a lot of the posts in this thread are coming from.
> CM originally gained his reputation dealing with big, aggressive, out of control dogs and I can see that some of his methods are possibly extreme because they are dealing with extreme cases. Only a fool would try and apply these methods to the average happy go lucky mutt.
> *To me he comes across as sincere and someone with an insight gained through observation. *
> ...


Actually, I think this sums up exactly why he's so popular. Particularly the bit in bold. As I said earlier, he talks a good talk unfortunately.

Personally, I'm just a pet owner myself. I've used the same methods CM does (they're not his methods nor are they applied only to extreme cases) and gotten results training wise that way. I now clicker train and get much better results with a happier dog and less stress. And having taken a clicker trained dog to a class using methods similar to CMs but not so harsh I can tell you the difference between dogs trained in the different ways is HUGE. I wouldn't go back to his ways if you paid me.

If you genuinely want to know what is so awful about CM then I would suggest reading up on canine body language. I'd be happy to post links if you want some. Then go and watch CMs show without the sound on. Watch what the dogs are saying rather than what CM himself is saying. They'll tell you a very different story to the one he tells you. Watch how they avoid him, offer him calming signals, want to move away from him.

And for what it's worth, those same dogs CM calls red zone cases? They can be worked with safely and effectively without resorting to hurting and frightening them. Far more safely and effectively. What he does suppresses behaviour but it doesn't change the dogs feelings about what it's reacting to.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Delilahdog said:


> I've watched CM programmes and read his biography.
> I'm not a dog behaviourist, just a dedicated dog owner but I don't see where a lot of the posts in this thread are coming from.
> CM originally gained his reputation dealing with big, aggressive, out of control dogs and I can see that some of his methods are possibly extreme because they are dealing with extreme cases. *Only a fool would try and apply these methods to the average happy go lucky mutt.*
> To me he comes across as sincere and someone with an insight gained through observation.
> ...


There are a lot of fools out there then


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Nicky10 said:


> There are better ways of dealing with aggressive dogs than choking them out and wrestling them to the ground
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Nicky
I watched the video and no I don't think the dog was 'fixed' and I don't think that was the intention. I think the point was getting him into a state of mind where he was safe to re-home from what I saw of the intro. This was CM's own individual way of starting him on that road. I agree it's a pity the producers focus on these dramatic moments instead of the long road that follows.
I am not a dog behaviourist and I don't know how to approach this task but the owner said he had already asked 2 different behaviourists without success. Would it be better just to give up on him?
I don't for one minute believe all dogs have to be dominated, certainly isn't the case with mine but there surely isn't a one size fits all answer to any training situation.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> How dare you? Yes, I can back that up. Try reading about some of the 'clients' who have sued him when he has damaged their dogs. When I see a reasonably friendly Labrador driven to the point of biting him because he doesn't have a clue how to cure or manage a simple problem like food guarding, I don't need to back anything up. I have eyes and thirty years experience of owning dogs.


How dare I? For the same reason you dare to state an opinion in open forum. It still sounds like anecdotal evidence to me


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Delilahdog said:


> Hi Nicky
> I watched the video and no I don't think the dog was 'fixed' and I don't think that was the intention. I think the point was getting him into a state of mind where he was safe to re-home from what I saw of the intro. This was CM's own individual way of starting him on that road. I agree it's a pity the producers focus on these dramatic moments instead of the long road that follows.
> I am not a dog behaviourist and I don't know how to approach this task but the owner said he had already asked 2 different behaviourists without success. Would it be better just to give up on him?
> I don't for one minute believe all dogs have to be dominated, certainly isn't the case with mine but there surely isn't a one size fits all answer to any training situation.


An actual trainer could have done it with much less stress. He's not making him safe, he's making him shut down. That isn't a dog that can be rehomed later on.

No dogs need to be dominated, they don't think we're dogs and eating before them or pinning them to the floor wouldn't work even if it was how wolves treated each other (hint: they don't). We've spent a very long time breeding dogs so they're not wolves.

You'll notice that when he works with say flock guardians these techniques are suspiciously absent. Luring a boerboel out of it's kennel with peanut butter rather than dragging it out on a prong as he usually would. And since many owners of these dogs will tell you to be dominant and alpha I wonder why he wouldn't use those techniques. Presumably because those dogs don't take it as kindly as pitbulls do.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Delilahdog said:


> I've watched CM programmes and read his biography.
> I'm not a dog behaviourist, just a dedicated dog owner but I don't see where a lot of the posts in this thread are coming from.
> CM originally gained his reputation dealing with big, aggressive, out of control dogs and I can see that some of his methods are possibly extreme because they are dealing with extreme cases. Only a fool would try and apply these methods to the average happy go lucky mutt.
> To me he comes across as sincere and someone with an insight gained through observation.
> ...


Please read this link, it is written by a very well respected veterinarian, applied animal behaviorist. Maybe after reading this you may start to see where some of us are coming from The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

This is not someone that should be dealing with resource guarding [youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]

Note the part that he says "I did not see that coming"
Now watch this one, any behaviourist worth their salt saw it a mile off 
[youtube_browser]nJyPPbZxyXw[/youtube_browser]

Oh, and he didn't "fix" Holly, after the bite he convinced the owners that she was too dangerous to live with them so he took her...

CM does not fix dogs, he shuts them down


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Actually, I think this sums up exactly why he's so popular. Particularly the bit in bold. As I said earlier, he talks a good talk unfortunately.
> 
> Personally, I'm just a pet owner myself. I've used the same methods CM does (they're not his methods nor are they applied only to extreme cases) and gotten results training wise that way. I now clicker train and get much better results with a happier dog and less stress. And having taken a clicker trained dog to a class using methods similar to CMs but not so harsh I can tell you the difference between dogs trained in the different ways is HUGE. I wouldn't go back to his ways if you paid me.
> 
> ...


HI Sarah Thank you so much for a rational response to my post that I can relate to.
I would be very interested in those links if you would post them?
When we first had our pup we 'magpied' a few different methods from different sources to train her and it was very clear from the start that dominance theory was completely over the top and she responded far better to rewards and affection etc. However that is just our individual experience.
I do believe CM is sincere, don't necessarily believe he has the secret.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> Please read this link, it is written by a very well respected veterinarian, applied animal behaviorist. Maybe after reading this you may start to see where some of us are coming from The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
> 
> This is not someone that should be dealing with resource guarding [youtube_browser]9ihXq_WwiWM[/youtube_browser]
> 
> ...


That is so sad, see his videos always make me cry.


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## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I was a never a fan or follower of Cesar Millan but I was fairly ambivalent towards him. It was the incident with Holly the yellow lab as shown upthread that made me realise what a complete tool he really was. Even prior to my change of opinion what spoke volumes is that I would have never allowed him near my own dogs.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

I sometimes think these conversations are like arguing what people see in those artistic illusion paintings where it looks like a tree and a flower but if you step back, its also a womans face. 

People are going to see what they want to see. Those who like Cesar Millan and are captivated by his charm and charisma are going to see a dog transformed, and people who have a different understanding of dog body language and behavior are going to see the distress he puts these dogs through.

The information is out there - those who want to learn will.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

The explanation video of the Holly situation StormyThai posted is a good one.

This video highlights what to look for in relaxed, nervous, alert dogs and the danger signs CM so often misses or misinterprets





Used to have a link to a really good site with loads of pics and descriptions but unfortunately it seems to have been taken down  Jean Donaldson also had a good presentation on canine body language but now the video says its private.

Turid Rugaas is generally the most recommended person to look at for learning more about canine body language and calming signals but not sure there's anything free out there. Or nothing in depth anyway. Loads of general text descriptions of what to look for but pictures are extremely helpful. Video even more so as a still pic can be misleading.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> That is so sad, see his videos always make me cry.


Me too. Poor dogs, put in a situation where they end up fighting/biting/stressed all for some ego to be pampered. I hate seeing dogs like this, let alone for entertainment purposes (not to mention the $ in his ever growing bank account)...


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Not long ago, I read that there are no animal cruelty laws in Mexico.... *At All*.

If this is true, then things have clicked into place.
Easy to see how animals have no worth, or any importance in that kind of society, and to see how someone growing up in that kind of environment might not have the values we do.

No, I'm not about to pardon CM on psychological grounds, or as a victim of his upbringing - but time & again, we hear how he claims people "humanise" their dogs too much...... yet has brought the polar opposite to dog training, using punishment and electric shocks, and in the words of many highly esteemed dog behaviourists and trainers - has set back dog training by about 30 years.

Maybe he does see many over-humanised dogs, _but_ his whole ethos and mantra _does_ tend to distance the owner from the dog, and create a relationship built on fear and mistrust.

Does he see partnerships between dogs and owners, where there is mutual love and respect, as over humanising?

Oh and Delilahdog - have a look on YouTube where he was interviewed by Alan Titchmarsh. He admitted he hurts dogs; he admitted people copy his techniques [despite the disclaimers!!!!]; but shows no remorse or empathy. Which just about sums it all up, I think.


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## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

If you follow the **** that goes' on in Mexico would have thought the way humans are treated tells you a whole lot more


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

I dont dislike Cesar Millan. I dont know much about Barbara Woodhouse. But, everybody has made mistakes. However, I dont believe you can learn much from dog trainers getting it wrong. Cesar Millan is a good example of how not to train dogs. He really doesnt read body language very well, even though he claims to. He always blames the owners, when it often isnt their fault at all. If you want to see what not to do, then it is a good show to watch. I feel bad for the dogs he rehabilitates. However, dog training will always be debated and I know where I stand.


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

I did find this website if anybody is interested:

BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Timern said:


> Cesar Millan is a good example of how not to train dogs. He really doesnt read body language very well, even though he claims to. He always blames the owners, when it often isnt their fault at all. If you want to see what not to do, then it is a good show to watch.


The pity is, he has so many followers who copy his techniques - despite not seeing it all - despite the disclaimers - despite other more experienced people advising against it.

People are latching onto an edited, truncated, potted ideal - based on harmful techniques - and aping what they see on TV.

He's good for one thing.... there are a lot of trainers and behaviourists out there who are getting overfull caseloads, working on damaged dogs, whose owners have tried to copy what they saw on TV 

You'd probably gain more insight into dog training by watching Supernanny.... at least she doesn't use physical punishment or electric shock collars.


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

You couldnt be more right: he has thousands of followers that think what he says is the gospel of dogs!


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

What a hot topic to start. lol 

The main reason his shows are on TV is to get people watching. He does things that are tense and good for the ratings of his shows. His show is just like the other 90% of garbage on TV nowadays.


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

Again, I agree - it's all about the ratings.


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

I should add I remember seeing the episode where he was bleeding from a bite. That was a lot of suspense and a tense situation. Like I question how much of reality shows are real, I do question how "real" many of his clients are and how "real" the situations are.


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## Timern (Feb 17, 2015)

When I think of CM, I immediately think of the episode where he choked a Wolf/Dog Mix until it passed out.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Timern said:


> When I think of CM, I immediately think of the episode where he choked a Wolf/Dog Mix until it passed out.


He nearly did the same with the supposed jindo.

The episode that haunts me though was the rescue chi mix from Mexico. It was clearly in pain and could barely walk. He didn't take it to a vet, he threw it in with the rest of his pack which is mostly pitbulls, rotties and gsds lovely dogs I'm sure but huge compared to a chi mix, for them to shove around to make it walk. After an aborted attempt at hydrotherapy, well holding it afloat in a bucket of water so it's legs kicked he took it to a vet. It was put down due to liver failure 

He was doing a good thing in that episode, just to be clear, he was helping a rescue group get dogs out of Mexican pounds where they would otherwise die. But the way he treated that chi mix 

Google says it's series 3, episode 16


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Having seen some of the earlier shows and read his biography, I thought I had seen enough to form some sort of opinion.
But I have never seen the shows described in some of the posts here.
I re-read parts of his biography last night and I am still convinced he is sincere although folk who know better than me clearly see him as mis-guided.
I'm getting that many of you think he is promoting an antiquated method of training, although I believe he would refute that and say his methods are not straight up and down dominance theory.
It does come across to me that (if you believe the programmes) on many of the cases shown standard dog trainers/behaviourists have already tried and failed or just given up and Caesar is possibly the last chance for some of these dogs. And they have had the luxury of failing in private whereas his failures are up there for the world to see.
Also it's pretty unfair to dismiss the helpful aspects of his methods as 'common sense' &/or 'not his anyway' when he hasn't claimed to invent these, just promoted them to the common owner given the opportunity.
Since I've only seen the early shows, they were possibly more genuine and public demand has forced the programmes and CM into showboating?
I dunno, as I said before, I found some of this stuff useful but I don't argue with those who say other methods could work better or he's not all he's cracked up to be. And I can see why someone completely immersed in this world might find some of his methods offensive.
I just don't believe he is the devil incarnate either.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

This was two pages last time I looked - will have to read them all later


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Delilahdog said:


> Having seen some of the earlier shows and read his biography, I thought I had seen enough to form some sort of opinion.
> But I have never seen the shows described in some of the posts here.
> I re-read parts of his biography last night and I am still convinced he is sincere although folk who know better than me clearly see him as mis-guided.
> I'm getting that many of you think he is promoting an antiquated method of training, although I believe he would refute that and say his methods are not straight up and down dominance theory.
> ...


He is very sincere - sincere in believing himself the Dog Whisperer who can show everyone what a bully he is. How you can watch the way he managed to get a perfectly nice, but food guarding dog to bite him and think he is any good is unbelievable. Food guarding is so easy to deal with. Did you ever see where he was forcing an 11 month old St Bernard up a slippery spiral staircase for no better reason than that the owners wanted him in the bedroom? The dog was not only terrified, he was a growing giant breed who should not be anywhere near a staircase. Having had three giant breeds myself I can tell you that they generally don't do stairs.

If you saw someone in the street hanging a dog up by its choke chain so that its tongue turned blue, I would hope you would phone the police. This idiot does it on tv and everyone thinks he's great.


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

Hanwombat said:


> This was two pages last time I looked - will have to read them all later


No no! All very civilised up to now!!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> I sometimes think these conversations are like arguing what people see in those artistic illusion paintings where it looks like a tree and a flower but if you step back, its also a womans face.
> 
> People are going to see what they want to see. Those who like Cesar Millan and are captivated by his charm and charisma are going to see a dog transformed, and people who have a different understanding of dog body language and behavior are going to see the distress he puts these dogs through.
> 
> The information is out there - those who want to learn will.


You know what really bugs me tho?
The fact that people take time out of their day to post links and try to explain why, and then these are just brushed over and ignored :nonod:


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

Delilahdog said:


> Having seen some of the earlier shows and read his biography, I thought I had seen enough to form some sort of opinion.
> Well I don't think you have!
> But I have never seen the shows described in some of the posts here.
> I re-read parts of his biography last night and I am still convinced he is sincere although folk who know better than me clearly see him as mis-guided.
> ...


(Red's mine). I can't believe after all you've been told and shown, you still defend him. It's fine to have an opinion, but to still hold that in the face of the evidence you've been presented is totally beyond me!


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Misi said:


> No no! All very civilised up to now!!


More so the amount of pages that quickly bounced up since I read it


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

People often use the "last resort" thing as a way of justifying the use of pain and fear to train their dogs. It's very, very rarely a last resort in my experience, they simply want the behaviour fixed with minimal effort on their part. Finding a good behaviourist isn't as simple as just looking on google unfortunately. You generally need vet recommendations (something I have NEVER seen CM recommend before treating a problem as a behavioural issue) and you may well have to travel rather than use whoever is closest or cheapest.

Moving away from CM a little, I know plenty of people in real life who have used prong collars, shock collars and spray collars as a "last resort". I can assure you they were anything but. Other methods were just far too much effort for them to bother with. And of course seeing someone like CM on tv using them only encourages it. And don't forget the "oh it doesn't hurt", "it's just what their mother would do", "it's how dogs communicate" rubbish people come out with. I've tried a prong collar on my arm, it hurts. I've tried a choke chain on my arm, it left bruises. I've heard dogs yelping when these products are used, I've seen them cowering, tail tucked, terrified of being hurt again. I've also seen seemingly happy at first glance dogs trained using them giving off much subtler signs of stress. I've yet to see a dog "nudge" another in the stomach or string it up by its neck as a correction. And the only time I've seen one dog purposely and forcefully roll another it was done with the intent of doing far more than correcting it.

Quite honestly, I find dominance theory a lazy way of training. If you can put it all down to dominance, to the dog being dominant, to the owner being weak, to the dog not knowing who's boss etc then you stop looking for the real causes. The causes that usually make a lot more sense.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> You know what really bugs me tho?
> The fact that people take time out of their day to post links and try to explain why, and then these are just brushed over and ignored :nonod:


It does me too...

I mean, to me, the Holly video pretty much says it all. I dont know how anyone can watch that and still say he has dog skills. But then, I dont know how anyone cant see that the show is basically promoting dog fights and instead of them getting prosecuted for what is a felony in all 50 states where this is filmed, they get a nice fat paycheck. National Geographic should be ashamed but theyre blinded by $$ in front of their faces too.

IDK... I just know that if a person still wont see the light after watching him ninja squat in front of Holly over a bowl of food, and then say this is relaxation half a second before getting his hand chomped, there isnt much else I can show that person, say to that person, or offer that person to read that is going to make a lick of difference. 
Which is why I say the information is out there and I dont bother spending too much time trying to dig it up. Those who want to learn will - no matter what, and those who refuse to see past the flashy smile and charismatic persona wont learn - no matter what.

OTOH, there are people reading this thread who might be on the fence about him, something niggling in the back of their minds that they cant quite put a finger on. These conversations help those people realize that niggling feeling was on to something and that their instincts were right. And theyll go find links like Beyond Cesar Millan and learn more.

We cant forget either, that some people *want* dogs who are shut-down and non-responsive. They want a dog who just sits there and doesnt do anything, doesnt bother them - you know, a furry piece of furniture. 
And yes, sadly there are also people who like to feel like they have dominated a wild animal, achieved mastery over mother nature in the form of their ferocious chihuahua who now doesnt bark when the doorbell rings because of a few effective alpha rolls and claw hands


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Wow, some of you people really can't wait to get upset and offended, I've really made your day haven't I!!
I've not ignored any of the posts responding to mine fyi, I may simply be interpreting what I see differently. Admittedly that might be through ignorance but I am open to learning and a different point of view (why else join a forum? Just so you can get together with your buddies and slate someone who puts their head above the parapet and make each other feel superior?)
And I did respond to Sarah saying I would be interested to see the links she would recommend helping to read dog body language. That still stands although I haven't seen them yet.
And NO ONE so far had come back on my point that on the programmes I have seen, a lot of the dogs were presented to trainers and behaviourists prior to CM who all appear to have failed. It's ok for you to gloss over my points then. Do you want to hang them too? Or is their some nice glib excuse like 'owners fault - wouldn't listen' How do you know?
OK clearly none of you would choose CM as a last resort for a doomed dog but nevertheless someone HAS that's all I was saying.
I take on board that some of the behaviours which might be disturbing the owners are, in some of your eyes, not necessary to 'fix'
I never set out to defend Caesar Milan, just find out why everyone was so upset with him.
Boy, consider me told!


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Delilahdog said:


> And NO ONE so far had come back on my point that on the programmes I have seen, a lot of the dogs were presented to trainers and behaviourists prior to CM who all appear to have failed.


Ill be happy to address this, but can you clarify what youre asking/saying here?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Some dogs can't be fixed though and the last resort is safe management, if thats not possible to achieve then yes PTS would in my mind be preferable than handing my dog over to him. That video of Holly will haunt me for the rest of my days (wish I hadn't watched it but I felt I had to) not just because of what he did but knowing the family let him take her away. I wonder what happened to her after that and when the filming stopped


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Some dogs can't be fixed though and the last resort is safe management, if thats not possible to achieve then yes PTS would in my mind be preferable than handing my dog over to him. That video of Holly will haunt me for the rest of my days (wish I hadn't watched it but I felt I had to) not just because of what he did but knowing the family let him take her away. I wonder what happened to her after that and when the filming stopped


There is talk that she was pts in the end, I'm not sure how credible that is tho because I can't find any info myself.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Delilahdog said:


> Wow, some of you people really can't wait to get upset and offended, I've really made your day haven't I!!
> I've not ignored any of the posts responding to mine fyi, I may simply be interpreting what I see differently. Admittedly that might be through ignorance but I am open to learning and a different point of view (why else join a forum? Just so you can get together with your buddies and slate someone who puts their head above the parapet and make each other feel superior?)
> And I did respond to Sarah saying I would be interested to see the links she would recommend helping to read dog body language. That still stands although I haven't seen them yet.
> *And NO ONE so far had come back on my point that on the programmes I have seen, a lot of the dogs were presented to trainers and behaviourists prior to CM who all appear to have failed.* It's ok for you to gloss over my points then. Do you want to hang them too? Or is their some nice glib excuse like 'owners fault - wouldn't listen' How do you know?
> ...


Who says so? Usually Cesar Millan himself or his narrator says so, that's who, and it is usually a load of bs. All I know is that anyone with a spark of dog knowledge would have told the owners of the St Bernard that growing giant breeds should not be climbing stairs, instead of forcing him up there just to show off. If you want prove that he knows sod all about dogs, that should tell you.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Ill be happy to address this, but can you clarify what youre asking/saying here?


At the start of several of the programmes I have seen (not recently, sorry so I cannot quote examples) and on at least one of the clips presented on this thread, the owner(s) state that they have asked for help from other 'experts' (no sarcasm intended there just searching for a collective way of describing trainers/behaviourists/vets etc) who have either been unsuccessful in helping or have simply told the owner it wasn't worth the effort, the dog should be pts.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> There is talk that she was pts in the end, I'm not sure how credible that is tho because I can't find any info myself.


I understood that they let him have the dog and he took it back to his psycho centre or whatever he calls it. He declared the dog too dangerous to keep and those silly sods believed him, when there was little wrong with the dog before he came along. People like that don't deserve to have a dog and I hope they never have another one. She probably turned into a food guarder because of some pack leader moron saying they had to take her food away to let her know who the pack leader was. If he wants to think he can train dogs by behaving like one, then he can go one further in his efforts to behave like a dog; he can be euthanized like any other dangerous animal.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Some dogs can't be fixed though and the last resort is safe management, if thats not possible to achieve then yes PTS would in my mind be preferable than handing my dog over to him. That video of Holly will haunt me for the rest of my days (wish I hadn't watched it but I felt I had to) not just because of what he did but knowing the family let him take her away. I wonder what happened to her after that and when the filming stopped


Sorry if my questions have taken you down a road that has upset you. I sincerely don't know how I would cope with a problem dog or if I would have the courage to use euthanasia if I couldn't provide the answer


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It can't be good for the dog or the humans to be living in a constant state of stress. Sometimes it is kinder to euthanise than live in constant lockdown or use methods like Cesar's which more often than not escalate the problem.


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

Delilahdog said:


> And NO ONE so far had come back on my point that on the programmes I have seen, a lot of the dogs were presented to trainers and behaviourists prior to CM who all appear to have failed. It's ok for you to gloss over my points then. Do you want to hang them too? Or is their some nice glib excuse like 'owners fault - wouldn't listen' How do you know?





ouesi said:


> Ill be happy to address this, but can you clarify what youre asking/saying here?


I don't know what you mean either. How does going to CM hold justification just because he's the last resort? I did address this in my previous posting. What you're saying / asking doesn't make sense.

It's like saying, oh my leg really hurts and I've been to the doctor and he didn't cure me, then I went to a specialist and he didn't cure me, so I've decided I'll just have to cut this leg right off. It's the last resort!!!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> It can't be good for the dog or the humans to be living in a constant state of stress. Sometimes it is kinder to euthanise than live in constant lockdown or use methods like Cesar's which more often than not escalate the problem.


It rather depends on the problem and if it can be managed. When I was a child one of our dogs used to guard his food, would snarl at snap at anyone who went into the kitchen when he was eating. My parents knew nothing about training and would never have had the patience if they did, but the house rule was clear - when the dog is eating, nobody goes into the kitchen except the other dog. He was fine with him. With all the dogs I have had there has always been a rule that the children never touch the dog while he is eating, even if he is quite happy about it. It doesn't take much to start a trend.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> It rather depends on the problem and if it can be managed. When I was a child one of our dogs used to guard his food, would snarl at snap at anyone who went into the kitchen when he was eating. My parents knew nothing about training and would never have had the patience if they did, but the house rule was clear - when the dog is eating, nobody goes into the kitchen except the other dog. He was fine with him. With all the dogs I have had there has always been a rule that the children never touch the dog while he is eating, even if he is quite happy about it. It doesn't take much to start a trend.


That's why I said sometimes  but if it is just stressing everyone out and there is no way to alleviate it somewhat then it might be kinder to euthanise.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Misi said:


> I don't know what you mean either. How does going to CM hold justification just because he's the last resort? I did address this in my previous posting. What you're saying / asking doesn't make sense.
> 
> It's like saying, oh my leg really hurts and I've been to the doctor and he didn't cure me, then I went to a specialist and he didn't cure me, so I've decided I'll just have to cut this leg right off. It's the last resort!!!


No it isn't.
It's like going to a doctor who says 'try this' but it doesn't help so you go to another doctor and getting the same, so you go to another doctor and he says 'what the other two doctors tried hasn't worked so let's try a different approach'.
There are probably lots of cancer patients who would never have considered alternative medicine until they were diagnosed. I know at least one.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I understood that they let him have the dog and he took it back to his psycho centre or whatever he calls it. He declared the dog too dangerous to keep and those silly sods believed him, when there was little wrong with the dog before he came along. People like that don't deserve to have a dog and I hope they never have another one. She probably turned into a food guarder because of some pack leader moron saying they had to take her food away to let her know who the pack leader was. If he wants to think he can train dogs by behaving like one, then he can go one further in his efforts to behave like a dog; he can be euthanized like any other dangerous animal.


Yes she definitely went to his "psychology" center, and after a few posts on CM's page telling everyone that Holly now plays with him like best friends all mention of her was taken down..so rumours started.

FWIW Being humanely PTS is a much kinder option that leaving any dog in his centre.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Delilahdog said:


> No it isn't.
> It's like going to a doctor who says 'try this' but it doesn't help so you go to another doctor and getting the same, so you go to another doctor and he says 'what the other two doctors tried hasn't worked so let's try a different approach'.
> There are probably lots of cancer patients who would never have considered alternative medicine until they were diagnosed. I know at least one.


Difference is this doctor that you go to see has no qualifications and is renowned for missing symptoms


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

He posted a video of I think Holly, who has guarding issues, with other dogs including his pitbull Junior who he's had from a puppy. The dogs had toys  and Junior got too close to Holly. He just lunged at Junior and he went right onto his back and then slunk away tail right down. I wouldn't want a dog I raised reacting like that to me  he probably said he was being submissive


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Delilahdog said:


> At the start of several of the programmes I have seen (not recently, sorry so I cannot quote examples) and on at least one of the clips presented on this thread, the owner(s) state that they have asked for help from other 'experts' (no sarcasm intended there just searching for a collective way of describing trainers/behaviourists/vets etc) who have either been unsuccessful in helping or have simply told the owner it wasn't worth the effort, the dog should be pts.


Oh okay I see what youre asking.

Alright, first off, what constitutes an expert? Anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer or behaviorist. Its a wholly unregulated industry. So the fact that someone else wasnt able to help the dog doesnt mean that Cesar Millan was the only one who could.

And what about that help. You have to ask yourself if CM has actually helped the dog. Because in many cases I dont see a dog who is better off at the end of the segment than at the beginning, and there is never any follow up to let the viewer know how the dog fared long-term.

So what about those times when his methods do appear to work and the dog is cured of the problem behaviors. 
Well, let me give you this analogy. I could call myself a weight loss guru and tell someone to eat nothing but lettuce and drink nothing but diet coke for a month. (Very often CMs prescriptions for his clients are about as realistic as this.)
When by the end of the month the person has lost significant weight, shall I call that a success and proof that my weight loss methods work? I guess I can cant I? After all, the person lost weight and it was my suggestion that caused it. But was it healthy? Was it sustainable? Did the person even need to lose weight?

Finally, as already mentioned, not every dog can be saved. If you google a pitbull by the name of Gus, you will read about a dog who has repeatedly attacked people - horrific attacks now, not just nips but broken bones. CMs center stepped in to save this dog who should have been PTS. When the owner couldnt pay to keep the dog at the center, they released the dog and he went on to attack again. Last I checked, the dog had been ordered euthanized again, and the ruling was appealed - again. This sort of mentality to save the dog at all cost is not for the benefit of the dog. It is simply to feed human ego that things they have mastery over everything even a dog so far gone that it would be a kindness to PTS.


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

This thread reminded me of something.

A few months ago, my friend got a "behaviourist" out to try help with one of her rescue labs. He's a barker and a bit bolshy with other dogs and people. Anyway, this woman came out and was of the Cesar Milan school of thought by the sound of things. Alpha rolling, she claimed she could solve aggression in one visit, pack leader, you name it. My friend came to work raving about her, saying in that one visit her lab was completely different, behaving himself yadda yadda. 

Anyway, a few weeks later, I asked her how things were going. Surprise surprise, they've gone right back to how they were at the start.

Anyone can come in as a stranger, and get a dog to behave differently. The real skill is in teaching a sustainable way to change a dog's behaviour for the long term and for the owners. In my friends case, her dog did what he was told simply because someone he'd never met had come in the house and immediately frightened him by rolling him all over the floor and pinning him down. And then off she merrily went with her money, offering no actual longer term advice. As a result, my friend has seen no progress, only lost a few hundred quid. And now her other lab is acting up too.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Alright, first off, what constitutes an expert? Anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves a dog trainer or behaviorist. Its a wholly unregulated industry. So the fact that someone else wasnt able to help the dog doesnt mean that Cesar Millan was the only one who could. 

YES I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN

And what about that help. You have to ask yourself if CM has actually helped the dog. Because in many cases I dont see a dog who is better off at the end of the segment than at the beginning, and there is never any follow up to let the viewer know how the dog fared long-term

IT IS HARD NOT TO TALK IN GENERALITIES AND I GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. HOWEVER I WOULD QUALIFY THIS BY SAYING IN AT LEAST SOME OF THE PROGRAMMES THEY REVISIT THE OWNERS DOWN THE LINE WHO DECLARE THE PROBLEM IS A LOT BETTER (& USUALLY THERE HAS BEEN A PROGRAMME FOR THE OWNERS TO FOLLOW NOT A QUICK FIX SITUATION) IT REALLY DEPENDS IF YOU ARE PREPARED TO TAKE THIS AT FACE VALUE OR NOT. MY VIEW IS THAT WHEREAS THE PROGRAMMERS ARE BOUND TO PUT A POSITIVE SPIN ON THINGS IF THE OWNERS ARE ON CAMERA SAYING IT I'LL TAKE IT AS TRUE.

So what about those times when his methods do appear to work and the dog is cured of the problem behaviors. 
Well, let me give you this analogy. I could call myself a weight loss guru and tell someone to eat nothing but lettuce and drink nothing but diet coke for a month. (Very often CMs prescriptions for his clients are about as realistic as this.)
When by the end of the month the person has lost significant weight, shall I call that a success and proof that my weight loss methods work? I guess I can cant I? After all, the person lost weight and it was my suggestion that caused it. But was it healthy? Was it sustainable? Did the person even need to lose weight?

YES I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN

Finally, as already mentioned, not every dog can be saved. If you google a pitbull by the name of Gus, you will read about a dog who has repeatedly attacked people - horrific attacks now, not just nips but broken bones. CMs center stepped in to save this dog who should have been PTS. When the owner couldnt pay to keep the dog at the center, they released the dog and he went on to attack again. Last I checked, the dog had been ordered euthanized again, and the ruling was appealed - again. This sort of mentality to save the dog at all cost is not for the benefit of the dog. It is simply to feed human ego that things they have mastery over everything even a dog so far gone that it would be a kindness to PTS.

ALL OF THIS MAKES SENSE TO ME.
Can you also see that someone who has become very successful with the general public is vulnerable to tall poppy syndrome? It may be human ego (or emotion) saying keep the dog alive at all costs but it may equally be human ego saying 'If I have been unable to succeed with traditional methods then nobody is going to succeed and you might as well put your dog to sleep'. If all the medical profession were allowed to behave this way then we would still have witch doctors wouldn't we? How is the poor owner supposed to tell the difference?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Fluffster said:


> This thread reminded me of something.
> 
> A few months ago, my friend got a "behaviourist" out to try help with one of her rescue labs. He's a barker and a bit bolshy with other dogs and people. Anyway, this woman came out and was of the Cesar Milan school of thought by the sound of things. Alpha rolling, she claimed she could solve aggression in one visit, pack leader, you name it. My friend came to work raving about her, saying in that one visit her lab was completely different, behaving himself yadda yadda.
> 
> ...


That reminds me of my cousin and her spaniel. In an effort to stop the dog from pulling, my cousin bought and used a halti headcollar. The dog hated it, twisted all over the shop to try to get out of it and eventually, whenever she saw her lead, she ran away and hid somewhere. Instead of thinking: she obviously hates the headcollar, she paid £60 to a so-called behaviourist whose gem of wisdom consisted of 'she thinks she's the pack leader and it's too much responsibility for her'. I wish I'd known my cousin was giving away £60 for b..s I'd have got in first:crying:


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I posted a link to a video a couple of pages back regarding body language. Links I wanted have been taken down but the video covers the basics. On Kindle so can't repost it.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

Delilahdog said:


> Can you also see that someone who has become very successful with the general public is vulnerable to tall poppy syndrome? It may be human ego (or emotion) saying keep the dog alive at all costs but it may equally be human ego saying 'If I have been unable to succeed with traditional methods then nobody is going to succeed and you might as well put your dog to sleep'. If all the medical profession were allowed to behave this way then we would still have witch doctors wouldn't we? How is the poor owner supposed to tell the difference?


No, we wouldn't have witch doctors because the hallmark of science (which real doctors use) is that it is constantly questioning itself, verifying it's observations, and testing it's conclusions. Science changes with new evidence.

A good trainer won't ever say "I can't fix this therefore no one can." They will say, "I can't fix this, here are your options." And from there recommend someone with different expertise or a second opinion. PTS should not be done at just one trainer's recommendation, and it's always left up to the owner in the end.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> Well, let me give you this analogy. I could call myself a weight loss guru and tell someone to eat nothing but lettuce and drink nothing but diet coke for a month. (Very often CMs prescriptions for his clients are about as realistic as this.)


If the object was to lose weight, it would certainly work, others might sugget they have their stammach stappled 

People seem to think CM is evil, I went to a dog trainer that recommended a halti style head collar for puppies, and I didnt like it. I am concidering going again in spring, because most of their methods were good, and they are local.
It was a couple of trainers, I do things the way I think bet. But my 1 yr old pulls on a short lead, because I hardly use one, she is reasonably obedient without a lead.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> If the object was to lose weight, it would certainly work, others might sugget they have their stammach stappled
> 
> People seem to think CM is evil, I went to a dog trainer that recommended a halti style head collar for puppies, and I didnt like it. I am concidering going again in spring, because most of their methods were good, and they are local.
> It was a couple of trainers, I do things the way I think bet. But my 1 yr old pulls on a short lead, because I hardly use one, she is reasonably obedient without a lead.


Sorry you have lost me there


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Sorry you have lost me there


Oh good, me too. Totally lost on this one. 
And that was me who used that analogy, not delilahdog?


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Oh good, me too. Totally lost on this one.
> And that was me who used that analogy, not delilahdog?


The quote button has a mind of its own sometimes. It decides for itself who said what


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nicky10 said:


> But he doesn't fix them. I read an episode guide written by the producers of the series for the first 2 series of it. Many of the dogs were either rehomed or the owners learned to live with the issues. Other trainers manage to work with aggressive dogs without getting bitten to show off as some kind of trophy.


I'd be very, very interested to read that if you know where I can find it or begin to look? It's so hard to find out what happens to the dogs after the show as I assume there's a clause in the contract so he doesn't look like a failure all the time and very often non dog people try to argue with me on this very point and I have little evidence to back up my assumptions!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> I'd be very, very interested to read that if you know where I can find it or begin to look? It's so hard to find out what happens to the dogs after the show as I assume there's a clause in the contract so he doesn't look like a failure all the time and very often non dog people try to argue with me on this very point and I have little evidence to back up my assumptions!


Bear in mind I read it years ago but I think this was it
Dog Whisperer with Cesar Millan: The Ultimate Episode Guide: Amazon.co.uk: Jim Milio, Melissa Jo Peltier: 9780340992616: Books

That he makes people sign non-disclosure contracts is common knowledge.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Just because I mentioned it earlier - here is Cesar Millan on the Alan Titchmarsh Show.

Have you seen this, Delilahdog?






As to the disclosure thing, he takes the dogs away from the owners for an hour, and when they come back, they magically respond to the Tsst! It doesn't take much knowledge of dog behaviour and counter conditioning, to work out that he is pairing the Tsst! with an unpleasant stimulus, such as an electric shock.

I've tried Tsst! ing my dogs, and they look at me like, Whaaaat? It's not a magic command, and he is NOT a magician - he uses electric shock collars to get this effect. And I do NOT WANT my dogs to be afraid of me, it ruins our relationship, it destroys trust.

I used to walk my dog with a CM fan. I kept my mouth shut a lot of the time. Then a playful rough & tumble between our dogs spilled over into a minor spat - we both bellowed at the dogs to split it up, but my dog ran away - clearly upset, and wouldn't come back to me.

This person then said to me - You need to go after your dog now, pin him to the ground and roll him.

I shot her a poison look and told her she had no place to recommend CM's tactics to me, and I'd sooner alpha roll her. She had absolutely no idea that my dog was completely freaked out, frightened by that incident, and that performing an act of aggressive bullying to him on top of that would have had untold consequences.... It's a great way of turning a sensitive, fearful dog into an aggressive biter.... and of course, by following CM she had no real idea of my dog's emotional state. In her eyes he was being wilful, dominant, naughty, aggressive - when in fact he was just freaked and fearful.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Was it a black german shepherd that was responding far too dramatically when he tsstd it and it turned out he'd put a shock collar on it. It nearly jumped out of it's skin. It was going after the cat so of course he forced them both into the same room and just corrected the dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN0H7U8yPVE#t=467

You can see the remote but the fact he has the collar on isn't mentioned


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Was it a black german shepherd that was responding far too dramatically when he tsstd it and it turned out he'd put a shock collar on it. It nearly jumped out of it's skin. It was going after the cat so of course he forced them both into the same room and just corrected the dog


Yes that was the one, but I'd already had the heads-up that his "magic touch" was courtesy of the National Grid.

Like I say - when you start really learning about animal behaviour from the bottom up [Skinner, Pavlov, then Bailey, Prior and others] it gets clear as day how he operates. And you don't have to go to Uni to learn this stuff.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Oh yes the tsst

anyone remember this guy on the one show who was a fan of CM and tried this

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/v...gi=11rhfujcc&age=1316770831&fr2=p:s,v:v&&tt=b

He was quickly dropped after the error of his ways was pointed out to the producers


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## Fluffster (Aug 26, 2013)

There's a nice follow up to that story:

Interview with Jordan Shelley - Watch video - Naturally Happy Dogs


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Lets not forget that CM _FAILED_ a required dog training test in Germany.
Even with the help of an interpreter...
He was banned from touching any dogs in his show over there :idea:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Lets not forget that CM _FAILED_ a required dog training test in Germany.
> Even with the help of an interpreter...
> He was banned from touching any dogs in his show over there :idea:


If we're talking basic training he had to call in a trainer to teach a dog to lie down and rollover, dalmatian the firehouse wanted him to do stop, drop and roll to take him to schools etc. Although he did manage to find a clicker trainer .

I'd like to see what that German test included


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Fluffster said:


> There's a nice follow up to that story:


I am in love with Jordan now, have followed him for a long time on social media, and watched him progress from a young, naive, diehard CM fan on TV, full of piss and vinegar, liable to alpha roll anything at a moment's notice....

.....to being shown the alternative way, and then training with some of the best around the world. He's worked a miracle on himself, for the benefit of dogs.

If he can do it, so can anyone. Fantastic example to people who think CM is the be all and end all.

Maybe CM is a start for some, but if they are never shown how to grow beyond that, they will stay in the same stale and abusive cycles. Forever.

Would much rather see ppl start off without even knowing who CM is - he's quite a pollutant.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Well.
I'm shocked.
Hearing CM admitting he used a shock collar (although trying to mitigate it) and then seeing him use one.
What can I say? For me it does put him and his programme in a completely different light because there can't be any excuse.
Just to be clear, I never have and never would use anything like this on an animal of mine.
It was very good to see the interview with Jordan admitting that he had found better ways to help his clients (and explain why they are better).
Thank you for your patience with me (some of you) I think I understand a bit better now


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I have the utmost respect for Jordan. It takes a hell of a lot of guts to admit you have been wrong all these years and go out and completely change the way you work.

A great example of someone overcoming cognative dissonance. Unfortunatly doesn't happen often enough as people become entrenched in their beliefs the more they have invested (time money and reputation) in them.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> I never have and never would use anything like this on an animal of mine.


The point with CM and his methods are that some dogs have got to a stage of very bad behaviour, and CM did say that he used posative enforcment too.


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2015)

El Cid said:


> The point with CM and his methods are that some dogs have got to a stage of very bad behaviour, and CM did say that he used posative enforcment too.


Do you mean positive reinforcement? 
Positive reinforcement would be behavior + reward = repeated or strengthened behavior. If the behavior is not repeated or strengthened, then the tidbit or praise wasnt really a reinforcer. Usually its a bribe, and bribes dont really strengthen behavior.

He does use praise and pets, but the way he handles dogs, those end up being non-punishment markers, thats not positive reinforcement either.

The other piece of your post - that he deals with dogs who have gotten to a stage of very bad behavior, well, you do know he often antagonizes the dogs into worse behavior than they were originally displaying for the sake of a good show right?

But even if he werent antagonizing the dogs, the whole idea that some behaviors are just so bad that they justify cruelty is flawed from the get-go.

The hallmark of effective behavior modification is to keep the dog below threshold, at a level where actual learning can take place, and to not allow the dog opportunities to practice the undesirable behavior.

CM does the polar opposite. He sets the dogs up to practice the undesirable behavior and then he punishes the dog for displaying the behavior he knew they were going to do. Thats not only hugely ineffective, its just plain sadistic. Its setting a trap for the dog, letting the dog fall in to the trap, and then punishing the dog for falling in to the trap you set for him. What a bassackwards approach!


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Cesar has occasionally tried positive reinforcement and rumour has it he's trying clicker training. Certainly when he came over to the UK he lifted a cocker spaniel into the car and offered it treats, which compared to an older episode where he dragged a cane corso in by a prong collar is an improvement. Both were very anxious around the car. Although I wonder how much was pandering to an audience much more used to treat training and a breed not seen as in need of dominance training. 

If even the Leerburg trainers can come to appreciate the good points of positive training, although to a limited degree, then I'm sure Cesar can. But he's still very much on the side of dominance training and harsh corrections.

For me personally, when all I had seen was Cesar and dog borstal where they tend to use a mix of treats and collar corrections with the odd water bottle I thought that was normal. Seeing Victoria Stilwell train a bichon not to bark and jump at the door with treats and waiting until it calmed down was a revelation. Go google stress signals in dogs and then watch Victoria or Kikopup on mute then Cesar and see who has the happier dogs. The voiceover and Cesar on the dog whisperer are strangely hypnotic


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

El Cid said:


> The point with CM and his methods are that some dogs have got to a stage of very bad behaviour, and CM did say that he used posative enforcment too.


He might say he does, but he has proved on tv that he doesn't have a clue how it works. He left it till the dog was over threshold, then offer it a treat, then said: you see, it doesn't always work. Well it does if you know what you are doing.



Nicky10 said:


> Cesar has occasionally tried positive reinforcement and rumour has it he's trying clicker training. Certainly when he came over to the UK he lifted a cocker spaniel into the car and offered it treats, which compared to an older episode where he dragged a cane corso in by a prong collar is an improvement. Both were very anxious around the car. Although I wonder how much was pandering to an audience much more used to treat training and a breed not seen as in need of dominance training.
> 
> If even the Leerburg trainers can come to appreciate the good points of positive training, although to a limited degree, then I'm sure Cesar can. But he's still very much on the side of dominance training and harsh corrections.
> 
> For me personally, when all I had seen was Cesar and dog borstal where they tend to use a mix of treats and collar corrections with the odd water bottle I thought that was normal. Seeing Victoria Stilwell train a bichon not to bark and jump at the door with treats and waiting until it calmed down was a revelation. Go google stress signals in dogs and then watch Victoria or Kikopup on mute then Cesar and see who has the happier dogs. The voiceover and Cesar on the dog whisperer are strangely hypnotic


I daresay it is easier to lift a spaniel than a cane corso. My Ferdie was terrified of the car and we ended up having to drag him up the ramp because we were moving and he had to go in, but my son was sitting in the back with a bowl of treats on when end of the lead and I was pushing his bum.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

The day that the majority of the human race wakes up to the fact that meeting violence with violence just leads to yet more violence will be a good day IMO!

Whilst most humans think that a swift slap solves things we will continue to have this divide between CM lovers and dislikers....


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> The day that the majority of the human race wakes up to the fact that meeting violence with violence just leads to yet more violence will be a good day IMO!
> 
> Whilst most humans think that a swift slap solves things we will continue to have this divide between CM lovers and dislikers....


No sort of slap would work on mine - they wouldn't feel it!


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

MerlinsMum said:


> Just because I mentioned it earlier - here is Cesar Millan on the Alan Titchmarsh Show.
> 
> Have you seen this, Delilahdog?
> 
> ...


We must have walked with the same people! :lol:


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## Jp kp (Mar 14, 2013)

CM has alot of experience with dogs, more than most of us i guess. 

For the inexperienced dog owners he comes accross as he knows what he is doing! 

I used to think he was an "expert", but as time and personal experiences develop you realise there is always better/alternative ways to do things. 

For the amount of dog owners in the uk, there just isnt enough "good" dog coverage on tv!! I wish there was! 

We need a good dog tv program!!! Someone do it please!!!!!


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> The day that the majority of the human race wakes up to the fact that meeting violence with violence just leads to yet more violence will be a good day IMO!
> 
> Whilst most humans think that a swift slap solves things we will continue to have this divide between CM lovers and dislikers....


For some it's only when a mosquito lands on their testicles that they realize there is always a way to solve problems without violence


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Jp kp said:


> For the amount of dog owners in the uk, there just isnt enough "good" dog coverage on tv!! I wish there was!
> 
> We need a good dog tv program!!! Someone do it please!!!!!


Problem is, the good dog tv programs would likely be boring  To your average viewer at least. There's nothing dramatic about training or rehabilitating a dog in a positive way.


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## Jp kp (Mar 14, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Problem is, the good dog tv programs would likely be boring  To your average viewer at least. There's nothing dramatic about training or rehabilitating a dog in a positive way.


Agree..... But kind of disagree too! My son watches a program on CBBC called 'who let the dogs out' (i think). Young kids, 10-14ish(?) have to teach their dogs tricks. Example...... Skateboarding! Its aimed at kids but very watchable and hav'nt seen any wrongdoing when I've watched it. It very positive based.

Even boring dog training can be made fun!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> For some it's only when a mosquito lands on their testicles that they realize there is always a way to solve problems without violence


I love that saying, makes me smile every time I read it


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

I watched TDW for the first time in ages and can't believe this BS is still allowed on screen, it's dog abuse - plain and simple! Oh well, as long as he keeps making money, that's all that matters


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## Guest (Feb 20, 2015)

Jp kp said:


> CM has alot of experience with dogs, more than most of us i guess.


Ah... if only all it took was experience...

I have a lot of experience driving cars, Im no mechanic.
I have a lot of experience breaking bones, Im no orthopedist. 
Come to think about it, I also have a lot of experience falling down, yet Im no stuntman.

A womanizer could have a lot of experience with vaginas, doesnt make him a gynecologist. 

CM may have a lot of experience, but I dont see him learning anything from that experience. If he had, why did Holly nail him and why did he not see it coming? And all the other times he has gotten bitten or has ended up breaking up a fight?

The people I know with a ton and a half of experience arent breaking up dog fights or nursing dog bites. Not because theyre dealing with lesser caliber problem behavior, but because they see the fight coming, they see the bite coming and they know - from experience - what to do to prevent the situation from escalating. 
Thats what experience *should* do. Show you where you went wrong and give you insight in to what to do differently next time.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Jp kp said:


> CM has alot of experience with dogs, more than most of us i guess.
> 
> For the inexperienced dog owners he comes accross as he knows what he is doing!
> 
> ...


He has a lot of experience but he still can't read body language and has apparently never learned basic husbandry like if your dog has just had major surgery don't throw it into a pack of large dogs. Take it's me or the dog, she'll bring in other people if she can't handle the situation or there's something she doesn't understand properly. Like the veterinary behaviourist because one dog was so manic he needed meds to calm him down before they even stood a chance of training him or pointing someone with an untrained and unsocialised presa to a school that specialised in serious protection dogs. Cesar just thinks his way works regardless, even when it's been proved multiple times it doesn't.

The completely manic dog was a soft coated wheaten that had only ever been walked a few yards to go to the toilet and they wondered why he spinned obsessively and bit at them :crazy:. A combination of the meds and obedience and agility training help in the end. But even with walking him they couldn't get him to focus at all without meds. Cesar's constant walking might have helped but I don't think all the leash corrections and tssts would have broken through any better.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Jp kp said:


> Agree..... But kind of disagree too! My son watches a program on CBBC called 'who let the dogs out' (i think). Young kids, 10-14ish(?) have to teach their dogs tricks. Example...... Skateboarding! Its aimed at kids but very watchable and hav'nt seen any wrongdoing when I've watched it. It very positive based.
> 
> Even boring dog training can be made fun!


Is that the Zak George one? I find him really aversive personally. Not in the same way CM and the like are but there's something I can't quite put my finger on about the way he trains that makes me VERY uncomfortable.


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## Poundingpaws (Nov 28, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Is that the Zak George one? I find him really aversive personally. Not in the same way CM and the like are but there's something I can't quite put my finger on about the way he trains that makes me VERY uncomfortable.


I find his enthusiasm a bit excitable, almost manic!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Poundingpaws said:


> I find his enthusiasm a bit excitable, almost manic!


Lol, yes he is a bit manic. I dunno, there's just something there that makes me _really_ uncomfortable and cringey.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Delilahdog said:


> ...
> 
> ...I did respond to Sarah saying I would be interested to see the links she would recommend [to help one]
> to read dog body language. That still stands - although I haven't seen them yet.


there's an entire sticky on _'Dog Body-language'_ on this sub-forum - it includes video from Dr Yin
[veterinary behaviorist], Jean Donaldson, Trish King, Denise Fenzi, Trish McMillan, Emily Larlham AKA
'KikoPup' on UTube, Turid Rugaas, Suzanne Hetts DVM-behaviorist, & more.

It also has links to articles, books, drawings, photos, & more videos.  Barb Handelman has a great website
with fantastic photos - free - & an even-more incredible book of photos [not free].

artist Lili Chin has a series of brilliant cartoons that illustrate dog signals graphically - free as drawings,
for sale as posters. Great public-info.

For parents, "Dogs & Storks" has reams of info on safety with young children.

There's enuf free info on the interwebs to keep anyone happily occupied for weeks on end, 8-hrs daily.

This is an incredible change from my start in dog-training, when virtually no info was available, & a mentor
was the conduit for info --- i was phenomenally lucky to have an excellent GSD-breeder who doubled as
a very sound, fair, humane trainer, who *lived nearby* - i was just a kid, in a very rural area, & that
Mrs Arnold was nearby was simply & purely Gaia's own grace. At the time, Koehler was the most-popular
trainer [his 1st book is among the very-few that CM /DW has actually READ about training dogs - if memory
serves, it was published in 1962... ], & the less said about Koehler, the better. He worked for Walt Disney,
but he used despicable methods - he just got good results for camera footage.

Nowadays, U can practically get a doctorate in behavior on-line, for nothing more than the TIME spent.

Which means that IMO there's no excuse for swallowing CM / DW's bunkum as fact; unless the audience *wants*
to be willfully ignorant & just accept everything - the video, his editing, audio sweetening of the soundtrack,
his voiceovers describing the behavior U can *see* in utterly incongruent terms, the mood-setting music 
making the dread & tension build, & so on --- as Gospel... there's simply no excuse.

He's a TV-host with some charm & a photogenic smile; his manner is warm on camera, to his guests.
Dogs tend to duck him - no surprise, there; his body-language is frontal, intrusive, upright, & threatening.
He looms a lot; he stares, uses hard eyes, is confrontational, pushes known hot-buttons, & is rude to dogs.

Cesar's big 'skills' are still the ones he learnt in his first long-term job as an undocumented immigrant:
forcing dogs who didn't want to be bathed, into the tub, & bathing them, willy-nilly. His employers discovered
that he didn't mind being bitten as much as they did, so they let HIM handle scared or resistant dogs; thus, he 
has a lot of practice at forcing unwilling dogs to do what HE wants them to do.

If all U've got is a hammer, everything's a nail. :nonod: He uses brute force, intimidation, pain, & confrontation.
There are better tools, & far-better, much-more humane methods. IMO, he's a dinosaur, but he's lauded as a
modern-day prophet of the latest in dog-training... which is laughable, as his one-&-only trainer / author, Koehler,
did much of this precisely the same way, after World-War Two - when he was an ex-K9-handler with no job,
back in a civilian economy.

1945 to 2015... and he's "current"? --- I don't think so. :glare: He revived the early-1980s 'dog as wolf'
pack-theory hooey, slapped some catchy tag-phrases on it, & hired an agent.
.
.


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

`Cesar back on UK TV`
not on mine, he`s not. Happily, I pre-date the plonker. Which means I know a dog is an animal. Animals really don`t give a flying fork about your Mental Attitude, positive or otherwise. They are trained with a mix of reward, prevention and habituation. Not rocket surgery...
This method works with all animals and also children. Mind you - I`d quite enjoy watching the Mexican Gardener attempt to prove he was `dominant` to something with larger teeth than him. Like a warthog...


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

re _"Behavior modification, properly done, would make boring TV."_


Jp kp said:


> Agree... But kind of disagree, too -
> 
> My son watches a program on CBBC called _'who let the dogs out'_ (i think). Young kids, 10 - 14ish(?)... teach their dogs tricks. Example...... Skateboarding!
> 
> ...


it's not "training" that would bore the pants off APO viewers - training is the teaching of cued behaviors,
which yes, can be lots of fun to watch, with some editing. U don't want to watch every session of a daily
or preferably multiple-sessions-per-day series to get the dog fluent - U'd want to see key moments & some
proofing [that's the part most APOs fall down on: add Distraction, Distance, Duration to the simple,
minimal "do X when i use cue Y"].

the "Let's all watch paint dry..." version of dog-training is well-planned, well-executed B-Mod, in which the dog
has some established unwanted behavior, & we want to install a new set of preferred responses to the trigger.

For instance:
- dogs who bark insanely at the door when visitors arrive, & continue to bark ear-splittingly for 10-minutes more...
 the visitors are already seated & drinking tea, & the dam*ed dog is still barking so loudly, U have to use
sign-language to communicate over the dog's head. 

- Dogs who lunge at other passing or approaching dogs when on leash - whether that's threat or a manic desire
to play, meet & greet, _______ .

The reason good B-Mod isn't riveting as a spectator sport is that it's step by step, under threshold, & requires
the trainer / handler / owner to move along at the DOG's pace: as s/he habituates or relaxes, the distance
can be reduced between dog & trigger, the intensity of the trigger [volume, number, size...] can be increased,
& so on. "Predictable" isn't riveting. 

Viewers eat-up the drama on CM / DW; snarling close-ups, leaping dogs with slavering fangs exposed, the music
sounds like 'Jaws' movie soundtrack, the dogs are deliberately agitated off-camera before filming begins, etc.
None of that happens when B-Mod is done right; if the dog begins to bark, of even if pupils expand [a low-level
signal of either arousal or stress] the trainer / handler / owner immediately exits the situation; they bail, *now*.
So the excitement level - in the dog & in the process - is very low, except for behavior-geeks who see the gains as
they occur, & are thrilled by the incremental improvements.

For the person doing the B-Mod, every little improvement is a thrill. For the audience?...
unless that's the owner, not so much.

OTOH, seeing *"before" & "after"* with key snippets could be very enlightening, even for a general audience.
But for trainers to learn from it, they'd need more of the boring, slow, criterion-change stuff.
So U'd need 2 editing processes - general-audience & How-To.

BTW, if _'Who let the dogs out!'_ is a Zak George production, i wouldn't be a fan. He *claims to be* primarily
positive-reinforcement, but he doesn't live up to that claim, in reality. He intimidates & pushes dogs; he's intrusive.
Eliciting a dog to co-operate is very different from quashing unwanted behavior.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

here's another POV from 2006 -
an essay by the editor of _'Pitbull Lover's Gazette'_ -

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...-2006-op-ed-cm-dws-methods-aggro-pitties.html

or for the direct info, his editorial -
*Please note, other than the editor's name, ALL bold is 'in the original':*


> _
> 
> ...let's take a look at what I've started calling, "The Milan Miracle Myth".
> You may or may not be aware of Ceser Milan, a-k-a "The Dog Whisperer". His National Geographic show
> ...


Please note that CM / DW claims to "love pitbulls", but he's as guilty as anyone who hates the breed
of talking about them in dramatic & flamboyant terms. Pibbles & their kin were deliberately created as
crossbred athletes, first & foremost - to gain the power of Bulldog muscle, & the speed & tenacity of Terriers.

Boston [Bull AND] Terriers, American Staffordshire Bull-[and]-Terriers [AKC label] later re-christened as American
Pit-Bull Terriers [UKC], British Bull-[and]-Terriers, Staffordshire Bull-[and]-Terriers, & many, many more -

they're all former-fighting-breeds, they're all inclined to grip with power, they're all athletic & muscular.
*Nobody* crosses the street to avoid an approaching Boston [Bull AND] Terrier for the same reason that
some benighted, ignorant soul might cross the street to avoid an approaching "pitbull" - yet Bostons are quite
notorious, especially the males, for being dog-aggressive, & often M:M aggro - not as a learnt behavior after
some personal trauma, but as a developing aspect of their personality when they enter puberty.

Mr Millan is such an ineffective trainer that his blue Pibble, 'Junior', didn't even know how to sit on cue when
the 2 of them met Ian Dunbar, DVM, for an interview to be included in Mr Millan's proposed book - Ian taught
Junior to sit when cued; the dog was about a year old, at the time. :blink: Stunning, really.
.
.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Let's not forget that CM *failed* a required dog-trainer's test in Germany. Even with the help of an interpreter...
> He was banned from touching any dogs in his show, over there. :idea:


Yes, i loved that! :lol:
He had to hire 'handlers' who'd passed the mandatory certification test.


Nicky10 said:


> If we're talking basic training, he had to call in [another] trainer to teach a dog to lie down & roll-over -
> a Dalmatian [mascot] that the firehouse wanted to learn "stop, drop & roll" to [demonstrate it in] schools, etc.
> Although he did manage to find a clicker-trainer. .
> 
> I'd like to see what that German test included.


I thought the Dal episode was a riot.  CM hired a well-known Hollywood trainer, who - yes! - uses a clicker
to teach dogs, cats, various other domestic & wild species to perform on cue. [He was very good - the guest trainer,
not Mr Millan, who was neither better nor worse than his usual performance: either spouting his own gibberish, or sage
antique tidbits of wisdom that were already cliche'd when i was born.]

I would *love* to see a sample of that Deutsch trainer's exam. :001_tt1: I'd also be willing to bet hard cash
that quite a few PF-uk members could pass that test, handily.
.
.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Yes, i loved that! :lol:
> He had to hire 'handlers' who'd passed the mandatory certification test.
> 
> I thought the Dal episode was a riot.  CM hired a well-known Hollywood trainer, who - yes! - uses a clicker
> ...


Let us not also forget that when he met Dr Ian Dunbar in England, he had no idea how to teach his own puppy how to sit; Dr Dunbar showed him how.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Yes, i loved that! :lol:
> He had to hire 'handlers' who'd passed the mandatory certification test.
> 
> I thought the Dal episode was a riot.  CM hired a well-known Hollywood trainer, who - yes! - uses a clicker
> ...


Puppy peeing in the fire station=dominant, puppy stealing food left in easy reach= dominant. He was dominating an entire fire station, pretty impressive for a 10 week old puppy. I did like the clicker trainer saying this has nothing to do with dominance just reward what you want him to do.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

I've only watched CM twice. The first episode I don't really remember but the second I saw was about a dog (doberman I think) who was afraid to walk through corridors. CMs solution was to shove on a choke chain and drag the clearly terrified animal through the corridor over and over again, at one point almost throttling her. I've never watched since and my friend, a qualified dog trainer, despises him with a passion!

I vaguely remember Barbara Woodhouse, she too was a keen user of the choke chain and she is parodied in one episode of The Simpsons.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

ouesi said:


> For some it's only when a mosquito lands on their testicles that they realize there is always a way to solve problems without violence





Tigermoon said:


> I've only watched CM twice. The first episode I don't really remember but the second I saw was about a dog (doberman I think) who was afraid to walk through corridors. CMs solution was to shove on a choke chain and drag the clearly terrified animal through the corridor over and over again, at one point almost throttling her. I've never watched since and my friend, a qualified dog trainer, despises him with a passion!
> 
> I vaguely remember Barbara Woodhouse, she too was a keen user of the choke chain and she is parodied in one episode of The Simpsons.


Barbara Woodhouse was an idiot but in that time everyone used check chains. Her problem was that she designed a true choke chain with opposing links that did not release properly - and every pet shop sold them.
She got a lot of people realising that there was help out there for training their dogs and that it was worth going to training club and enrolling on a course. I never saw anyone other than her actually train her way - her methods were hilarious but relatively harmless and she did have a few good ideas - as no doubt does CM.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Barbara Woodhouse was an idiot *but in that time everyone used check chains*. Her problem was that she designed a true choke chain with opposing links that did not release properly - and every pet shop sold them.
> She got a lot of people realising that there was help out there for training their dogs and that it was worth going to training club and enrolling on a course. I never saw anyone other than her actually train her way - her methods were hilarious but relatively harmless and she did have a few good ideas - as no doubt does CM.


Not everyone


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blitz said:


> Barbara Woodhouse was an idiot but in that time everyone used check chains. Her problem was that she designed a true choke chain with opposing links that did not release properly - and every pet shop sold them.
> She got a lot of people realising that there was help out there for training their dogs and that it was worth going to training club and enrolling on a course. I never saw anyone other than her actually train her way - her methods were hilarious but relatively harmless and *she did have a few good ideas - as no doubt does CM.*




He certainly does. He came up with the best idea ever of how to become a multi millionaire while knowing sod all about his chosen profession. Not many people can do that.:eek6:


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

I heard this man say a few sensible things,.example, dogs need good exercise and some breeds need a job, ie collies.
Then I saw the collie in the basement and the lab in the garden that bit him





I will never watch the man again.


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## CrescentRose (Feb 20, 2015)

What methods does he use that people question exactly? I've only seen some episodes so I don't really know many of his methods.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

CrescentRose said:


> What methods does he use that people question exactly? I've only seen some episodes so I don't really know many of his methods.


Did you look at the link I posted.. Watch it then tell me you think that is good practice, punching a dog in the soft part of it's neck, that dog was showing signs of submission and he still threatened then attacked it.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

CrescentRose said:


> What methods does he use that people question exactly? I've only seen some episodes so I don't really know many of his methods.


The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
Have a read of that


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

> What methods does he use that people question exactly?


Not question so much as despise....

Including but not limited to...

Collar corrections (jerking)
choke chains / slip collars
prong collars
shock collars
hanging (suspending dogs off the ground by a collar, cutting off air supply)
scruffing
alpha rolls / pinning / brute force and ignorance
jabbing with fingers
kicking
flooding (forcing the dog into situations it is scared of)
nonsense about pack leadership "rules" etc
setting dogs up to fail - ie deliberately putting the dog in a position where it will perform a behaviour so he can punish it


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Collar corrections very harsh ones
Outdated theories on how to train dogs that even the creator said was flawed
Physical confrontation when he's not alpha rolling, flipping the dog onto its side and holding it there, he kicks them, pokes them in the neck or side, drags them around usually on choke/prong collars 

When your own dog that you've raised from a puppy rolls right onto his back and then slinks away cowering and shaking because you turned towards it and went tsst you're doing something very wrong. He's also claiming the dog is a service dog, fair enough if he needs one but they're supposed to be stable.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Collar corrections very harsh ones
> Outdated theories on how to train dogs that even the creator said was flawed
> Physical confrontation when he's not alpha rolling, flipping the dog onto its side and holding it there, he kicks them, pokes them in the neck or side, drags them around usually on choke/prong collars
> 
> When your own dog that you've raised from a puppy rolls right onto his back and then slinks away cowering and shaking because you turned towards it and went tsst you're doing something very wrong. He's also claiming the dog is a service dog, fair enough if he needs one but they're supposed to be stable.


Perhaps he thinks a service dog is a breed:sad:


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## caroleduffin (Mar 12, 2009)

I'm enjoying Caesar's programs. I've just actually finished rereading his book. I have never understood why a few people dislike him, and am pleased to see supporters on this site. His book is so full of common sense and good advice which, I know from experience, works! I know he disapproves of these "these are not dogs, these are my children" type owners. I think he's right. I love my dogs, but they are not human, do not have the communication skills to understand as humans do, and so we need the means to allow them to live with us, and with people and other dogs. Caesar's methods do just that, in my opinion. Carole


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> Perhaps he thinks a service dog is a breed:sad:


No he is aware of all the legality and everything and if he needs one then he can have one. But when junior reacted like that


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

caroleduffin said:


> I'm enjoying Caesar's programs. I've just actually finished rereading his book. I have never understood why a few people dislike him, and am pleased to see supporters on this site. His book is so full of common sense and good advice which, I know from experience, works! I know he disapproves of these "these are not dogs, these are my children" type owners. I think he's right. I love my dogs, but they are not human, do not have the communication skills to understand as humans do, and so we need the means to allow them to live with us, and with people and other dogs. Caesar's methods do just that, in my opinion. Carole


Of course dogs aren't humans but if we want to live with them we have to teach them the rules. Not just alpha roll, eat before them and make them constantly walk to heel and hope for the best.

Most of what he says that sounds sensible like exercise, discipline, affection most trainers have been saying that for much longer


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

caroleduffin said:


> I'm enjoying Caesar's programs. I've just actually finished rereading his book. I have never understood why a few people dislike him, and am pleased to see supporters on this site. His book is so full of common sense and good advice which, I know from experience, works! I know he disapproves of these "these are not dogs, these are my children" type owners. I think he's right. I love my dogs, but they are not human, do not have the communication skills to understand as humans do, and so we need the means to allow them to live with us, and with people and other dogs. Caesar's methods do just that, in my opinion. Carole


He has been banned in Italy, he was not allowed to touch dogs on his programme in Germany, there are massive campaigns to keep his programme off of UK tv - you call that a few do you? Supporters on this site? Who? There are one or two, certainly, there were more before they saw the light. I know my dogs are dogs as well, and I would do them no favours by thinking otherwise, but that does not mean I have to intimidate them; in fact if you even tried to train a giant breed like that, you would likely get bitten. These dogs are extremely intelligent and have been bred for centuries to think for themselves. One needs to build a rapport with them if one is going to have any control whatsoever.

If you think dogs don't have the communication skills to understand, perhaps you should have a look at some of the guide dogs who can not only take their blind owners where they want to go, but can also know whether it is safe to cross the road, even if the beeper says it is, know which underground station to get off the train, and many other skills one could never teach a human being who did not understand a word which was said to them.

Anyone who can get a mild mannered dog with a food guarding problem to bite him and declare he didn't see it coming, should not be anywhere near dogs. The man knows sweet sod all about dogs.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I watch The Dog Whisperer but I don't practise the methods, I just enjoy watching the show. I watch It's Me Or The Dog as well, but don't put Victoria Stilwell's methods into practise. There are warnings at the start of most of the Dog Training shows that tell you not to practise the methods without a qualified trainer with you, I listen to those. 

I think Victoria is good for the more simple issues, like dogs that are annoying to the owners and the public with behaviours like pulling and negative but not aggressive reactivity, chewing up the furniture, separation anxiety, etc. That type of thing, whereas I think Cesar is more of a last resort for owners with dogs that are dangerous. For whatever reason the dogs haven't been reformed by other trainers and I think Cesar is a better option than the dog being put to sleep. 

I'm not going to lie, if Cesar had been in the UK when I had Myles I would have tried to contact him. 

I think people would be more supportive of Cesar if the owners of the dogs he deals with had exhausted other venues before appearing on the show. When I see Cesar working with dogs with more simple problems that could be solved using less aversive methods, like pulling on the lead, I get a bit annoyed. I know I'd be more supportive if he dealt with dogs like Myles all the time instead of dealing with dogs with simple (in comparison) problems. 

What I don't like about any of the TV trainers is that they all use their method for every single dog they deal with. Dogs aren't all the same, I'd like to see some diversity in a TV trainer. What works for one dog brilliantly won't work as well for another dog, and it would be nice to see the trainers changing how they deal with different dogs. 

As I said I don't practise any of the methods in any dog training show, I just enjoy watching them. There are things I see all trainers do that I wouldn't dream of doing with a dog. As the saying goes, put 10 "dog people" in a room and the only thing they'll agree on is that everyone else is incorrect. I'd like to see them bring Dog Borstal back, I really enjoyed that series and spoke with one of the trainers on that show in regards to Myles. 

The only dog training show I don't enjoy watching is "At The End of My Leash" and it's because I can't stand how Brad Pattison talks in regards to the dog. Always calling it a "puppy" and acting pretty weird when he's trying to explain things. His methods are really basic and get limited results from all the dogs he deals with, I don't enjoy that show.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

mylesaminute said:


> I watch The Dog Whisperer but I don't practise the methods, I just enjoy watching the show. I watch It's Me Or The Dog as well, but don't put Victoria Stilwell's methods into practise. There are warnings at the start of most of the Dog Training shows that tell you not to practise the methods without a qualified trainer with you, I listen to those.
> 
> I think Victoria is good for the more simple issues, like dogs that are annoying to the owners and the public with behaviours like pulling and negative but not aggressive reactivity, chewing up the furniture, separation anxiety, etc. That type of thing, *whereas I think Cesar is more of a last resort for owners with dogs that are dangerous. For whatever reason the dogs haven't been reformed by other trainers and I think Cesar is a better option than the dog being put to sleep. *
> I'm not going to lie, if Cesar had been in the UK when I had Myles I would have tried to contact him.
> ...


Again that old chestnut? How many times does it need to be pointed out that you only have his word for it that the dogs are dangerous, and you only have his word for it that other trainers have failed.

I have seen Victoria Stilwell cure an aggressive dog and my thirty odd years experience with dogs tells me that she would always have more success with this type of dog than the Dog Abuser. His method is to wind them up and make them look more dangerous because that is a good show, so he thinks. Real dog lovers are disgusted. Victoria Stilwell also has qualified behaviourist advising her with every show; CM doesn't.


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

I suppose I'm not a real dog lover then.  Each to their own.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

mylesaminute said:


> I think Victoria is good for the more simple issues, like dogs that are annoying to the owners and the public with behaviours like pulling and negative but not aggressive reactivity, chewing up the furniture, separation anxiety, etc. That type of thing, whereas I think Cesar is more of a last resort for owners with dogs that are dangerous. For whatever reason the dogs haven't been reformed by other trainers and I think Cesar is a better option than the dog being put to sleep.


This is such a huge misconception that the gentler methods are okay for the minor issues, but for the big issues you need a heavier hand. It is just not true and it's a myth that needs to die a quick and total death for the sake of all those difficult dogs out there and the owners who love them.

In November of 2009 we took on a great dane from the local shelter. From what we were able to piece together of his history from the AC officers and the people who live in the area, he had been living feral in a state park near where we live. There is not a lot of human trash to scavenge there, he must have been living off road kill and goats and sheep he caught himself. He had been shot at least twice, several officers and locals had attempted to catch him repeatedly with traps (he never got close enough to humans any other way). 
In the shelter he was assessed, deemed too old, too sick, and too aggressive to adopt out. (He was heartworm positive.)
He was indeed very food aggressive and climbed up the assess-a-hand to get to the human holding it.

Anyway, long story short, this was not a dog anyone was going to push around or use confrontational methods with. He just wasn't going to tolerate that. He was big and he was stronger, faster, more agile, and had better teeth. And he knew it. And he didn't need humans anyway.

By that spring we started taking him out in public, and he did great. By the following summer (2011) I had him tested as a therapy dog and he passed with flying colors.

Not one time did any of us who worked with him use anything remotely like the methods CM used. We used science based methods, relationship building, and good old-fashioned patience. He ended up being one of the best dogs I've ever had the pleasure to call one of mine.

But let me be clear - he was already a confident, solid temperament dog. He had a lot of learned survival behaviors that didn't mesh with living in the human world, but his overall temperament was always sound.

Not all dogs have a sound temperament. With those dogs you can desensitize, counter condition and manage a lot of it, but not everything can be fixed, nor should it. For a dog who is always going to be a stressy, nervy, basketcase who uses aggression to cope, and is never going to be okay living with humans in a regular human world, is it really an unkindness to humanely PTS? I don't think so....

(Will reply to the rest of your post in a minute)


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> Again that old chestnut? How many times does it need to be pointed out that you only have his word for it that the dogs are dangerous, and you only have his word for it that other trainers have failed.
> 
> I have seen Victoria Stilwell cure an aggressive dog and my thirty odd years experience with dogs tells me that she would always have more success with this type of dog than the Dog Abuser. His method is to wind them up and make them look more dangerous because that is a good show, so he thinks. Real dog lovers are disgusted. Victoria Stilwell also has qualified behaviourist advising her with every show; CM doesn't.


I'm no Cesar millan fan. In fact the few clips I've seen of him are horrible to watch (although fascinating in a horrifying sort of way). However, I've watched a few episodes of "it's me or the dog" on you tube over the last couple of days and Victoria Stillwell seems to have a fondness for "sound aversion" and taking stressed out dogs towards the things that are stressing them (people/dogs) and then turning on her heel and dragging them away by a lead attached to their collar when they react which surely doesn't help. Plus in one episode there's lots of talk of pack structure and she shows the owner how to pretend to eat the dogs food before giving it to them........ Don't get me wrong she's nowhere near as confrontational or alarming as Cesar but I'm not super impressed either


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

caroleduffin said:


> I'm enjoying Caesar's programs. I've just actually finished rereading his book. I have never understood why a few people dislike him, and am pleased to see supporters on this site. His book is so full of common sense and good advice which, I know from experience, works! I know he disapproves of these "these are not dogs, these are my children" type owners. I think he's right. I love my dogs, but they are not human, do not have the communication skills to understand as humans do, and so we need the means to allow them to live with us, and with people and other dogs. Caesar's methods do just that, in my opinion. Carole


Can you explain why the majority of members dogs on this site then are well rounded, well trained, good doggie citizens, despite the fact pretty much everyone here does NOT put CM's 'common sense' into practice?

You do not need to be heavy handed ( as Cesar often is ) to teach a dog how to live with us humans and other animals etc in terms 'they understand'.

What's more there is certain breeds out there ( my own included ) that are NOT very forgiving in terms of handler errors and especially with intimidating and heavy handed training methods. Not only does the dog lose any trust or desire to work with you, but they can equally fight fire with fire....and that's not something you want! I doubt very much Cesar would have the first idea in how to handle dogs and their unique temperament traits.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarahliz100 said:


> I'm no Cesar millan fan. In fact the few clips I've seen of him are horrible to watch (although fascinating in a horrifying sort of way). However, I've watched a few episodes of "it's me or the dog" on you tube over the last couple of days and Victoria Stillwell seems to have a fondness for "sound aversion" and taking stressed out dogs towards the things that are stressing them (people/dogs) and then turning on her heel and dragging them away by a lead attached to their collar when they react which surely doesn't help. Plus in one episode there's lots of talk of pack structure and she shows the owner how to pretend to eat the dogs food before giving it to them........ Don't get me wrong she's nowhere near as confrontational or alarming as Cesar but I'm not super impressed either


You are watching old episodes. When she did her shows in the UK she did do all that, even talked pack leader and eating first, but she never scared the dogs and never kicked them or anything else. Watch her American shows; she has taken advice, learned from her mistakes, and now uses only positive training methods.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> You are watching old episodes. When she did her shows in the UK she did do all that, even talked pack leader and eating first, but she never scared the dogs and never kicked them or anything else. Watch her American shows; she has taken advice, learned from her mistakes, and now uses only positive training methods.


Oh ok, those were the only ones that came up when I searched. Got any links?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sarahliz100 said:


> I'm no Cesar millan fan. In fact the few clips I've seen of him are horrible to watch (although fascinating in a horrifying sort of way). However, I've watched a few episodes of "it's me or the dog" on you tube over the last couple of days and Victoria Stillwell seems to have a fondness for "sound aversion" and taking stressed out dogs towards the things that are stressing them (people/dogs) and then turning on her heel and dragging them away by a lead attached to their collar when they react which surely doesn't help. Plus in one episode there's lots of talk of pack structure and she shows the owner how to pretend to eat the dogs food before giving it to them........ Don't get me wrong she's nowhere near as confrontational or alarming as Cesar but I'm not super impressed either


Her early ones used a lot of sound aversion and some pack theory if I remember rightly. However, unlike CM, she has learned and evolved her methods and as far as I'm aware no longer uses either.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Sarahliz100 said:


> Oh ok, those were the only ones that came up when I searched. Got any links?


She's gotten much better, a lot of clicker training and counter conditioning. Even at the start she was never as bad as cm and she learned from her mistakes. Look for her American shows. She also does silly things like vet checks if a dog appears to be in pain or thyroid checks etc


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogloverlou said:


> Can you explain why the majority of members dogs on this site then are well rounded, well trained, good doggie citizens, despite the fact pretty much everyone here does NOT put CM's 'common sense' into practice?


Perhaps we're all just super lucky with super easy dogs? :lol:

I have one of those dogs who could easily be trained using CM type methods. He's mellow, easy going, forgiving and as long as he knows what you want of him is usually happy to comply. He's just as easily, if not more so, trained using positive reinforcement. And his attitude is completely different since a change of owner and method. He's gone from a rather worried dog, quick to comply through fear and hesitant to try new things to a very confident, eager to work dog who could not be more enthusiastic if he tried. I know which I prefer.

I've used CM type methods myself, I've had success with them if you consider success to simply be a dog who does as it's told when it's told. I prefer the dog I get with clicker training.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

mylesaminute said:


> I suppose I'm not a real dog lover then.  Each to their own.


Apparently not.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

Okay, mylesaminute, now for the rest of the story 

Dogs like Myles don't need more Cesar Milans. They need *effective* behavior modification, and confrontational methods - like what CM uses, are not effective in the long term. Yes, you can surpress behaviors with force. It does "work". But the cause of that behavior is never addressed. 

Put it this way. Say I had a bunch of bombs that kept going off and I needed them to stop doing damage. I can take those bombs and bury them in the ground. They will still go off, but they won't be nearly as destructive. It is a doable solution. However, what if I don't bury them deep enough? What if I burry them next to an underground water supply? What if I bury them in a field where some kid goes to play and accidentally digs one up?
This is suppression of behaviors. When you convince the dog to stop doing the undesirable behavior because he's trying to avoid other consequences all you are achieving is suppression. 

Another option is to just diffuse the bombs. Now, it takes more skill, more knowledge, more finesse, and maybe, initially more time (once you figure out the pattern of how the bombs are put together it gets much easier and faster to diffuse each one). Once a bomb is diffused, that's it. It's totally diffused. Not a danger any more. 
This is what happens when you use science based methods to deal with behavioral issues.

My own personal fascination is also the effect of stress on dog behavior and how finding ways to help that dog diffuse stress can affect behavior. Play, massage, low stress handling techniques, diet and excercise and over all health, all of this comes in to play also. A veterinary behaviorist can also prescribe drugs to help with anxiety issues that may manifest as aggression. 

CM doesn't address any of this. Behavior is much more than a dichotomous dominance/calm-submissive, or dog respects my wishes/dog disrespects my wishes. And what a shame anyway to not see dogs in their full complexity.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

I don't think commenting on the extent of which one loves or does not love dogs is helpful in these discussions.

It's not about love anyway. It's about doing what's in both the best interest of the dog and the people that dog will encounter.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Colette said:


> Not question [CM's choices of tools & methods], so much as despise...
> 
> Including, but not limited to:
> Collar corrections (jerking)
> ...


Excellent list of his many sins of commission, as a supposed "trainer" - :thumbup:

U missed just one that i can think of, but it's one of his most egregious sins, IMO. :cursing:
He agitates the 'guest dog' / his current victim, OFF CAMERA - before they begin filming, so that the dog
will be completely over-threshold & make a much-more exciting subject to film. :thumbdown: Of course,
altho we trainers strongly suspected this, since his human "guests" [the other victims, IMO] sign gag orders
& cannot talk about their 'experiences' during filming, or what they saw, heard, etc, no-one could prove
those suspicions to be true - until his own film-crew staff talked about it, during Episode #100.

Among his crew is a young fella who ADOPTED a dog from a shelter, with a known problem-behavior:
*dog aggression* - & guess what?... The adoptee hasn't "gotten better" around other dogs; in fact he's probly
worse than he was when adopted, as he's the stooge-dog used to wind-up the 'guest' dog before filming starts.
:incazzato: If i were the director of that shelter, & i found out some slimeball was exploiting their adopted dog in that
despicable fashion, & putting their supposedly "loved" dog thru so much stress, & *worsening a known habit,
or at the very minimum, maintaining that problem-behavior by encouraging its expression*, i'd go
to court, & confiscate that dog, toot-sweet. And the adopter would pay to fly the dog back to the shelter, too.
B*st*rd.

Another of Cesar's less-than-shining moments?...
he used a shock-collar on a dog, on camera, without ever having the guts to explain to TV-watchers that he was
using shock to punish the dog for *looking at a cat - the dog's housemate*.
The remote was hidden in his pocket; he pushes the button, unseen, & suddenly the dog is freaking out,
he yelps, quails, tries to bolt, can't get away, & finally BITES his female owner in his panic.
All the while, Mr Toothy smiles & keeps talking, as if nothing is happening at all.

The editing process is also highly-structured: parts where the dog reacts violently are snipped out, here,
& put in, over there - to make their reactions seem over-the-top & excessive, such as, say, when the filming van
& crew arrive - the dog doesn't lose her or his mind, & bark & snarl & lunge?... No worries; they film a bit
with the dog up-close as s/he's being agitated by the dog-aggro stooge dog, & voila! - perfect footage for the van
pulling in the drive, & the inserted supposed "reaction" from the dog, who in Real Life, got up, barked twice,
& stood at the door, wagging her / his tail, as they came up the walkway. 

Mr Millan is a showman, 1st & foremost; he's a TV-host & an entertainer, who wants excitement, drama,
& thrills - not actual results, but glitter & lots of eyeballs on the glitter. IMO, of course; no doubt, i'm wrong,
& he's actually a highly-qualified behavorist with academic chops [in a pig's eye, he is...]
.
.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> [/B]
> 
> He certainly does. He came up with the best idea ever of how to become a multi millionaire while knowing sod all about his chosen profession. Not many people can do that.:eek6:


As have many other tv trainers. I do not like his methods (or his looks) but he is not all bad and a lot of people that have very happy dogs swear they are following his advice.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Dogloverlou said:


> *Can you explain why the majority of members dogs on this site then are well rounded, well trained, good doggie citizens, despite the fact pretty much everyone here does NOT put CM's 'common sense' into practice? *
> 
> You do not need to be heavy handed ( as Cesar often is ) to teach a dog how to live with us humans and other animals etc in terms 'they understand'.
> 
> What's more there is certain breeds out there ( my own included ) that are NOT very forgiving in terms of handler errors and especially with intimidating and heavy handed training methods. Not only does the dog lose any trust or desire to work with you, but they can equally fight fire with fire....and that's not something you want! I doubt very much Cesar would have the first idea in how to handle dogs and their unique temperament traits.


the bolded - are they really. This forum is full of advice being asked on dogs that lunge, pull, bark, attack, bite people etc etc. And even the ones that are apparently well behaved -well we only have the owner's word on that and their methods of achieving it.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Blitz said:


> As have many other tv trainers. I do not like his methods (or his looks) but he is not all bad and a lot of people that have very happy dogs swear they are following his advice.


Hitler wasn't all bad either.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Blitz said:


> As have many other tv trainers. I do not like his methods (or his looks) but he is not all bad and a lot of people that have very happy dogs swear they are following his advice.


Seriously? have you watched any of the videos on this thread? I've yet to see any clip where the dogs he is demonstrating on look remotely happy, they usually look terrified and/or confused. Thats not to say some owners aren't happy with the results but I don't believe the end justifies the means. If that was the only way to train my dog then I'd rather have an untrained dog thanks.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> Collar corrections - very harsh ones.
> Outdated theories on 'how to train dogs' that even the creator [of the theory] said was flawed.
> 
> Physical confrontation -
> ...


Yup, LOTS of all the above. :nonod:


Nicky10 said:


> When your own dog that you've raised from a puppy [Cesar's blue 'pitbull' / APBT] rolls right onto his back
> & then slinks away, cowering & shaking, because you turned towards him & said, 'Tsst!', you're doing something
> very wrong.
> 
> ...


Yes - poor Junior was a husky young athlete, even as a pup, but he's always been a softer dog than his past
predecessor, 'Daddy', the old rednose Cesar had for years before his death.

Daddy was a bold dog, & hardcore; Junior is a muscular marshmallow, & Cesar doesn't tailor his handling
to the dog's individual temperament. He scares poor Junior spitless, but he hasn't TAUGHT him much at all -
just terrified him into "not doing" damn'near anything at all. He's incredibly suppressed - which is easily seen
as 'well-behaved', when it's actually just sad & withdrawn.
Punishment suppresses not JUST unwanted behaviors, but ALL behavior, across the spectrum.


newfiesmum said:


> Perhaps he thinks a 'service dog' is a breed. :sad:


If he actually needs an SD of any kind [which i frankly very-much doubt], choosing an APBT is pretty stoopid.
Not that they aren't perfectly capable - many are! - but that the breed is so maligned & badly-regarded,
it creates a distinct likelihood that U - & Ur supposed SD - will be asked to leave, or not allowed to enter.

It's just another way of creating unnecessary drama; SD-handlers with actual handicaps or medical needs are
very unlikely to choose such breeds as former-fighters, or those with known human-aggro tendencies [Fila
Brasiliero, Akitas with their well-documented stranger-intolerance, & similar].
Anyone who needs an SD-partner wants the dog to *make life easier -* not to add complications!

So far as i know, or anyone else has ever reported, Mr Millan is a hale man, for his age; he may have bad
knees, or possibly high-BP, but he has loads of money & excellent medical care. There's nothing to suggest
he has any chronic issue that requires an assistance-dog to make 'activities of daily living' [ADLs] easier.

If he loses some of the surplus around his waist, & maintains an active life, he will probly outlive many of us;
i can only hope that at SOME point, he realizes how much manure he's shoveling into the public maw, which
eagerly swallows every illogical syllable, & learns BETTER - so that he starts spreading actual information,
rather than dis-information. :nonod:

As it stands, i tell ppl to watch him to learn what NOT to do. :sad: It's just too bad he has a bully pulpit.
.
.


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I can't stand Cesar.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> Excellent list of his many sins of commission, as a supposed "trainer" - :thumbup:
> 
> U missed just one that i can think of, but it's one of his most egregious sins, IMO. :cursing:
> He agitates the 'guest dog' / his current victim, OFF CAMERA - before they begin filming, so that the dog
> ...


The explanation given for the gsd was cesar went off and bonded with him, complete with footage of Cesar tenderly stroking the dog presumably while putting the collar on. They come out, the owner practically sobs oh he's a totally different dog.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Seriously? have you watched any of the videos on this thread? I've yet to see any clip where the dogs he is demonstrating on look remotely happy, they usually look terrified and/or confused. Thats not to say some owners aren't happy with the results but I don't believe the end justifies the means. If that was the only way to train my dog then I'd rather have an untrained dog thanks.


I said I do not like him or his methods - but some people do. Luckily we are not all the same. I rather doubt if he would be able to have so many shows and earn so much money if NO ONE liked his methods.
I have only watched one programme and it was so obvious he had done something awful to the dogs before the filming started that I never watched another one.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

newfiesmum said:


> Apparently not.


I wish there was a 'not like' button on these forums for comments like this. Being snarky doesn't get anyone anywhere.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I suppose he needs a big, muscular pit bull service dog to carry his wallet.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

At one point his staff, not him I should point out, said Junior was a service dog for other dogs or something. That by calling him a sd Cesar could take him everywhere and help other dogs.

He seems familiar enough with the concept and there have been pages posted on his site about the harm fake sds do. Maybe he does have some kind of invisible condition and Junior helps with that but surely he could have chosen a bombproof dog.


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## Canarie (Sep 4, 2013)

I have read several of his books and seen countless shows of his and 
I will continue to do so as I have learnt so much from him.
He will always have his supporters and those anti his ways as much as any other trainer may.
I use a collar that "vibrates" on my dog,like a phone does.There will be people who will write negatively against this,but,after three trainers unsuccessfully tried to teach my dog to recall I found a trainer who worked for me.This is not right or wrong in my opinion as Cesar is not right or wrong necessarily.He suits some dog owners and not others......

Canarie


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

Canarie said:


> I have read several of his books and seen countless shows of his and
> I will continue to do so as I have learnt so much from him.
> He will always have his supporters and those anti his ways as much as any other trainer may.
> I use a collar that "vibrates" on my dog,like a phone does.There will be people who will write negatively against this,but,after three trainers unsuccessfully tried to teach my dog to recall I found a trainer who worked for me.This is not right or wrong in my opinion as Cesar is not right or wrong necessarily.He suits some dog owners and not others......
> ...


Oh crap. My popcorn maker is gonna blow a fuse.now. This thread should have finished a page ago when Godwin's Law was invoked.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

:yikes:


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

Canarie said:


> I have read several of his books and seen countless shows of his and
> I will continue to do so as I have learnt so much from him.
> He will always have his supporters and those anti his ways as much as any other trainer may.
> I use a collar that "vibrates" on my dog,like a phone does.There will be people who will write negatively against this,but,after three trainers unsuccessfully tried to teach my dog to recall I found a trainer who worked for me.This is not right or wrong in my opinion as Cesar is not right or wrong necessarily.He suits some dog owners and not others......
> ...


I think we could all agree on some things just being *wrong*. For example, on one forum, a member boasted about trying a dog to a pole in the ground and then every time the dog alerted to a cat walking by, the owner beat him with a thin, flexible rod. That was justified to avoid the dog killing the cat. 
I'm going with wrong on that one.

But right and wrong aside, there is also effective and ineffective. Using the bomb analogy I used above, I'd say diffusing a bomb is more effective than burying a bomb.

But yeah, with Godwin's Law and attacking the person, not the methods, and comments on who is a real dog lover and who isn't, it's probably time to euthanize this poor thread


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I fell down the rabbit hole of coonhound forums once to discover a world where the only training possible was shock the dog or beat it, they all thought this was right even the more pet orientated owners. If you don't know dog body language Cesar is awfully persuasive. Watching it with the sound off is an eye opener.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Apparently not.


I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sweety said:


> I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


Yes, even me.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

caroleduffin said:


> I'm enjoying Caesar's programs.
> I've just actually finished rereading his book. *I've never understood why a few people dislike him*...


Which rock have U been living under, since approximately 2006?...

those "few people" include virtually every trainer with a more-than-local reputation, plus every person
who works in animal-behavior with virtually ANY academic chops, from the obvious: CAABs, vet-behaviorists,
behavioral clinicians, etc, right down to vet-technicians, vet-nurses, zookeepers, veterinary assistants, & so on,
& then the many ACOs, kennel maids, shelter staff, & other folks - who may not have finished high-school,
but are perfectly capable of recognizing a sideshow barker when they see or hear one.

The fans who like him - & apparently approve of, & use, his methods - are overwhelmingly ordinary pet-owners.
They're the easiest group to fool - as they have the least actual knowledge of dogs, their behavior & cognition,
learning theory [which applies to EVERY species that's capable of learning, from paramecium to pachyderm],
& all the other actual knowledge that Mr Millan so markedly lacks, & even BRAGS about his ignorance of that
entire body of knowledge, beginning with all the foundation research in the 1880s & into the current day.

Mention *Pavlov* or *B F Skinner* to Mr Millan, & U might get any of a number of erroneous replies; what U won't
hear is any comprehensible statement of how their research helped shape our understanding of humans AND
nonhumans, & how all species learn - & how our behavior is altered by consequences.

Behavior is *driven* by its consequences - every action either rewards, punishes, or gets neither a payoff for
the effort, nor punishment for that prior action. Rewarding behaviors are repeated; it's that simple.

Mention *Miklosi* to Mr Millan, & he might think it's a tropical cocktail - when in fact, he's actually a well-known
& very highly-reputed academic who's made a career out of ground-breaking research on domestic dogs -
cognitive abilities, communication, perception, signaling, emotional perception, & more.


caroleduffin said:


> ... I'm pleased to see supporters [of CM/DW] on this site.
> His book is so full of common sense and good advice which, I know from experience, works!


What particular 'common sense, good advice' from Mr Millan did U use, Carole, & what was the presenting
problem that it supposedly solved? - I'm curious.

I've had plenty of clients who tried to use his As-Seen-On-TV methods, & things got markedly worse;
I've had others who luckily only used the stuff he SAID - not 'did' - which is less dangerous, & in some cases,
is actually factual info - usually hoary old chestnuts that can't even be attributed any more, or simply cliche's
that were old when i was a child, over 40-years ago, but at least the stuff he repeats from other sources is more
likely to be true than the hooey he invents for himself. 


caroleduffin said:


> I know he disapproves of... "they're not dogs, they're my children"-type owners. I think he's right.
> 
> I love my dogs, but they're not human, don't have the communication skills to understand as humans do,
> & so we need the means to allow them to live with us, & with [other] people & other dogs.
> ...


I don't claim to have given birth to my dogs.  I don't try to discuss Chaos Theory or relativity
or even gravity as a theory with any dog - ever - no matter how brilliant.

OTOH, just because "they're dogs", they don't have to be communicated with by sheer force - they DO have
a brain, & they ARE capable of learning - not just being pushed, pulled, or otherwise forced into desired action.

Did U know dogs can fast-map?... That's among the many linguistic skills that humans previously thought were
abrogated to humans-only. We were wrong; in kids, it's a skill that develops around age 5-YO, & some kids lag
& can't do it until 1st or even 2nd grade [6 to 7-YO]. Dogs over 8-MO are mostly capable of this.

Did U know that dogs as a species are often better at practical geometry calculations than many humans?...
That's how dogs solve such problems as _'Where do I need to be, to intercept the flight-path of that Frisbee
& then snatch it out of the air?..._, altho of course, dogs don't *verbalize such thoughts*, they simply solve the
problem, efficiently & with a high degree of success, given practice.

Dogs aren't stoopid. Mr Millan's choice of tools, which are aversive, & his methods, which are coercive, & his
apparent attitude toward dogs, which is confrontational & authoritarian, all assume dogs are NOT co-operative.
Dogs are portrayed in a simplistic "Us vs Them" manner, which is way-too blunt & far-too narrow; most dogs,
& i do mean the vast majority, as in 99 of every 100, just want to understand WHAT we want; they're happy
to do it, they just don't know what the H*** it is. Dogs as a species aren't rebels or violent insurrectionists;
if they *were*, why in DoG's name would we have chosen them as our longest & most-intimate companion
species? :huh: - that would make no sense whatever.

The happiest dogs i know have JOBS - & quite often, the *dog* not only volunteered for the job, but s/he
actually invented it - saw a need, & stepped up & did it. So, far from Mr Millan's portrayal of dogs as rebellious,
"dominant", difficult, & obstreperous, i think dogs are highly co-operative & very willing partners.
Mr Millan, in sharp contrast, is very often difficult & obstreperous. 

Mr Millan is not a role-model for modern, metrosexual, multicultural, broad-minded men. He's sexist - not
surprising for a rural childhood, & as the male inheritor of a Latin tradition of machismo, but disappointing,
nonetheless.

He claims that "everything he knows about dogs" was taught him by his beloved grandfather, but he doesn't
explain how his Grandad learned anything about dogs on a hardscrabble Mexican ranch that would apply to
dogs who live in urban & suburban pet-homes, since THEIR dogs - in Cesar's childhood - lived outside, foraged
& killed small game to help feed themselves, fought among themselves & with neighbors' free-roaming dogs,
free-bred, the bitches whelped outdoors, & the surviving pups grew-up to breed... or didn't.
How does that correspond with pet dogs, in pet homes, who are housetrained, wear collars, walk on leashes,
& go to a vet for care when it's needed?... Millan's childhood dogs might as well be another species. :blink:
They might be interfertile with pet-dogs, but that's the end of their commonality.

OTOH, it certainly explains why he thinks brute strength & harsh handling are the only possible answer to any dog's
resistance... it couldn't possibly be that the poor dog has NO idea what in H*** we want her or him to do,
could it?... Or that the dog is justifiably afraid, from past bad experience? Or that the dog might be over-aroused
& simply too excited to comply, or learn - whichever?
Naaahhh... :thumbdown: That couldn't be it, s/he's *dominant.* :lol: Jesus wept... :laugh:
.
.


----------



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

leashedForLife said:


> Which rock have U been living under, approximately 2006?...
> .
> .


We are a little behind, here in the UK; I do personally find that some owners are much too soft with their dogs, and CM is a remedy to this.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

*THE FIRST RULE OF CESAR'S DOG CLUB IS YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT BACK KICKING THE DOG IN THE RIBS WITH THE HEEL OF YOUR FOOT*


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

No it's totally ok because it's what they would do to each other. I'm not sure what dogs he's been watching though 

Rule number 2: I only use the tools the owners are happy with. Any disgareements, the very unhappy owner about one of those illusion collars being put on their very placid chow mix as well as beardie he'd come to fix his dog reactivity will be crushed er calmly.

The I only use the tools the owners like was from an episode where he was called in to fix an ex-lab coonhound that was terrified of everything. He did it with a prong collar of course  that was how he justified it


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

El Cid said:


> *We are a little behind, here in the UK*; I do personally find that some owners are much too soft with their dogs, and CM is a remedy to this.


Um, speak for yourself


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Um, speak for yourself


Not half. Most of us on here are from the UK.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

El Cid said:


> We are a little behind, here in the UK; I do personally find that some owners are much too soft with their dogs, and CM is a remedy to this.


Rubbish. I am soft on my dogs but they are still so well behaved when out that people actually stop and remark on it. I don't need some bully boy to frighten my dogs, because if I did that they wouldn't be well behaved, they would be scared to death of any stranger who came anywhere near.


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

El Cid said:


> We are a little behind, here in the UK; I do personally find that some owners are much too soft with their dogs, and CM is a remedy to this.


What does it mean to be "too soft" on your dog? And why does there need to be a remedy to it?


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

What exactly is "too soft" with a dog?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> Hitler wasn't all bad, either.


True.
He loved his mother.
He wanted to be an artist, studied painting, & appreciated fine art. [His regime staged the biggest state-sponsored
wholesale theft of art works from private & public collections the world has yet seen.] Too bad he didn't become
a watercolor artist, famous for his landscapes.  Or even just a plodding wannabe, happy to paint
& not remembered after his death - as many of us will vanish, after our brief mayfly lives.

He loved his mistress [apparently, he wasn't as enamored of his wife].

He loved his bunny-rabbits - & his German Shepherd.

He was a vegetarian - except when he was eating liver-dumplings, his favorite food. :sosp:

Unfortunately, Hitler isn't remembered for his few good points; he's remembered as the rabble-rousing
central figure of a monstrous war-machine, that was largely successful at wholesale genocide of 'objectionable'
innocents [Jews, intellectuals, political dissidents, homosexuals, Romany peoples, & others].

Similarly, Mr Millan won't be remembered thru the ages for his love of his sons, which is apparent, & is an
admirable trait - but for his far-more flamboyant & deliberately attention-getting behavior, like stringing up
a dog till the poor beast's tongue turns blue, or provoking many dogs to bite him by pushing their hot-buttons,
or pinning a terrified dog to the floor until he pee'd himself in fear.

He'll be remembered for dragging a panicked Great Dane at speed up a flight of steps, & across a slippery lino
floor that terrified the poor dog - after he'd taken a severe head-injury when he slithered down that very hall,
unable to find any traction, & smashed into a glass wall, knocking himself unconscious, as a pup [Kane].

He'll be remembered for bragging that he hasn't learned anything since his childhood about dogs - as Granddad
taught him 'everything he knows'. And then of course, he died - eventually - & Mr Millan never found anyone else
who was worthy to teach him anything. :blink: Not an author, not a mentor, not in person or virtually - no one.

Junior, CM's APBT, had no trouble learning to sit on cue from Dr Dunbar. However, do i think that Mr Millan
went on to teach other dogs - his own, or anyone else's - to sit, as shown by Ian Dunbar?... No, i don't.
And that's a shame.
.
.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> What exactly is "too soft" with a dog?


ummm 


Not that I care..I've had many compliments on both my obvious relationship with my dog and how I train/handle him so....-shrugs-

FWIW Being "too soft" is what Thai needed...I was his last chance before the blue juice so I'm ok with that :dita:


----------



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

ouesi said:


> What does it mean to be "too soft" on your dog? And why does there need to be a remedy to it?


Some people are too soft with their children, and their dogs. They lack leadership and clear boundaries.


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

El Cid said:


> Some people are too soft with their children, and their dogs. They lack leadership and clear boundaries.


But that doesn't require the methods Cesar uses. I absolutely agree kids and dogs need rules and boundaries as much as affection but it doesn't need to be so harsh.


----------



## hazel pritchard (Jun 28, 2009)

He wont be on my TV, hes a bully,
My 3 dogs are all well trained ,they have learnt through kind reward based training, whether its food type treats or vocal praise,


----------



## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Some people are too soft with their children, and their dogs. They lack leadership and clear boundaries.


But you can teach a dog rules and boundaries without resorting to heavy handed methods.


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

El Cid said:


> Some people are too soft with their children, and their dogs. They lack leadership and clear boundaries.


I'm still not understanding what leadership and boundaries have to do with being soft.

I have dogs and children who are cooperative, tons of fun to hang out with, can go anywher and know how to behave for the occasion, and none of it required me being "hard" with them.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> We are a little behind, here in the UK; I do personally find that some owners are much too soft with their dogs, and CM is a remedy to this.


We are not remotely behind in the UK although I believe there are still some people who think its necessary to eat before their dogs, always go through a door before their dogs and beat their chest like a silver back. Its perfectly possible to teach your dog to live in harmony with you without shocking it, alpha rolling it and provoking it until it bites you. If that is your idea of a "remedy" then I feel sorry for you but even more sorry for your dog


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> But ["leadership" & "clear boundaries"] doesn't require the methods Cesar uses.
> 
> I absolutely agree that *kids & dogs need rules and boundaries as much as [they do] affection,
> but [discipline] doesn't need to be so harsh.*


Precisely. :thumbup1:

CM / DW could just as easily take Putin as his role-model for "how to train dogs" in the current Russian take-over
of Ukraine - it's all strong-man, strong-arm, militaristic bombast, threat & aggression.

If CM's is "the only way" to train dogs, then kids, elderly persons, anyone petite or disabled, is doomed;
their dogs will *never, ever behave politely.*

Well, guess what?... many of my clients HAVE BEEN disabled - or elderly - or had kids, & i've even run a summer
program specifically for children between 9 & 12-YO, to learn how to train their family-dog. Their dogs have all
learned to LLW; sit, drop, & stand on cue; stay in position; go to a mat or bed on cue; & more.

the youngest child in my 'summer camp' was an 8-YO girl who trained & handled a 90# n/M Lab.
She AND her dog did brilliantly - other than housetraining & 'sit for a treat', her dog had zero manners, to begin;
he hauled like a tractor, jumped on anyone he could reach, strangled himself with his prong-collar, & ignored
'corrections'. What did we do?...  *'Wahl, cowboy, we manned up & busted his a$$.'*
.
.
.
No - we didn't.  I fitted him for a headcollar, just like all the others; every kid had 1 week to happily habituate
their headcollar, & have the dog wearing it & loving it by the next class. And by golly, every kid did their homework,
& every dog arrived wearing their GL & wagging their tails.

I've even taught disabled clients to self-train their own SDs - & unlike Cesar, these folks DID have visible issues,
ranging from paraplegic wheelchair-users to post-stroke patients & Parkinson's sufferers. There were also
deaf folks who wanted to train their pet-dog as a Hearing Ear - some for at-home only, others for public-access.

Of them all, there was just one failure: a paraplegic owner who adopted a young Rott mix, who became reactive
shortly after puberty, & finally aggressive - to ppl AND to other dogs - & was relegated to "pet" status, altho he'd been
chosen specifically as a future-SD. :nonod: That was a disappointment.

But not one dog was punished using aversive tools; not one dog was strung-up, poked with bitey hands, "rolled",
"tapped" with a shod foot [which most of us just call a kick!], or otherwise coerced, intimidated, or caused any pain.

Do i think Mr Millan could have made a reliable SD of the n/M Rott-mix? --- No, i do not.
But i'd sure have enjoyed watching him try, & be bitten for his troubles... :laugh: That dog bit 5 ppl,
& 3 required stitches - none of the 5 bitees was me. 

Take-home message? -
Good training not only can be, but should be, humane, clear, & fair, free of coercion, & rewarding to the learner.
It shouldn't include pain nor any discomfort beyond mild emotional stress, & even that should only occur
when it's not training - the teaching of cued behaviors - but Behavior Modification: the replacement of current
undesired behaviors with new, preferred behaviors.
.
.


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I'm still not understanding what leadership and boundaries have to do with being soft.


It's about trust, and communication - which any Cesar advocate will not understand... because the Big C doesn't *see it* himself, *understand it*, *value it*, and *therefore cannot teach it*.

As someone very eminent in animal behaviour once observed - *"Cesar Millan sucks all the joy out of being a dog owner."*


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2015)

El Cid, genuine question, why did you start this thread?

You have been on here long enough to know CM is not popular.
You have been involved in discussions where it has been explained to you the flaws in his methods.

Now on this thread, you have completely ignored all the valid points made and just plow ahead with comments that make it seem like you haven't read a word of what has been said.

So TBH, it almost seems like trolling to start a thread like this, and posting as you are.

Lola is your first dog, you haven't even had her one year. Have the grace to accept that some posters might know a bit more than you, and might have some valid insight on the likes of CM and his methods.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

El Cid said:


> Some people are too soft with their children, and their dogs. They lack leadership and clear boundaries.


Thai has clear boundaries. He knows what is expected of him, because I have taught him..He looks to me for guidance in situations he isn't comfortable with. 
He no longer turns into a scared wreck when a situation occurs that he isn't comfortable with..

Do I lack leadership? Yeah I'd say that some would say that I do because I don't yell and scream, I don't use corrections and if my dog starts to go over threshold I walk away and try again another day.

I'm ok with people thinking that tho..because my dog trusts me to the moon and back, he does what I ask because HE wants to...not because he fears the consequences.

I never again do I want to see my beautiful boy try to shrink himself into the smallest space possible, shaking like a leaf because he was so scared of what "might" happen - *never!*

So yeah...I could not care less if people think I am too soft, or that I lack leadership skills because I refuse to use archaic training methods..All I need is to see the huge grin on my dogs face whilst he anticipates what I will ask of him next :sneaky2:


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Lola is your first dog, you haven't even had her one year.


I didn't know that.
Merlin is 9 years old next week, and I had him at 9 weeks.


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

ouesi said:


> El Cid, genuine question, why did you start this thread?
> 
> Lola is your first dog, you haven't even had her one year. Have the grace to accept that some posters might know a bit more than you, and might have some valid insight on the likes of CM and his methods.


I happen to think discussions are good, even if you have a different view.
Many people dont see another point of view, posters on here are more likely to be informed and know what to do.
Who should people take instruction from, or should they make up their own mind?
My border collie is almost 13 months old, and I like to think doing very well. She is very friendly, too friendly sometimes, well socialised, partly because I take in what different people have written on here.
I dabbled with feeding partly raw, but it didnt work for me. Is there ONE person that I should listen to about feeding?
I take CM for what I see, other trainers have been said to edit their videos to make them look better, just like CM has on TV.
I will go back to training classes in spring, think more about training, I havnt used treats for a long time, maybe I should. But everyone loves my dog, and are jealous of how good she can be.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> El Cid, genuine question, why did you start this thread?
> 
> You have been on here long enough to know CM is not popular.
> You have been involved in discussions where... the flaws in his methods... have been explained to you.
> ...


IMO?...
Because he likes to stir the pot, when things are too calm to be interesting.
It's reliable popcorn-&-soda entertainment.
.
.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Singing: _'Memories, memories...'_

here's a 2011 thread, with multiple posts from a Forum-member who's a strong advocate of certain
battery-powered training tools - praps he & Mr Millan would like to get together, & natter about the joys
of 'training collars', & those handy pocket-sized remotes?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-trai...ilitary-police-paramilitary-security-k9s.html

The actual subject of the thread was a then-new [fall 2010] training manual for Tactical K9s,
which explains the use of Applied Behavior Analysis in training - a much-more progressive,
more effective, & powerful training method than the usual 'traditional' AKA aversive training
& coercive handling, that was the previous standard practice in the USA for military & police K9s.

ABA is reward-based - an entirely different mindset.
This book is now available in e-book format, in a 2014 second edition - highly recommended.
Any trainer can learn very useful tips from it, for any dog - including pet dogs, or working dogs,
from the hunting field to personal-protection, bite-sports, SD, whatever.
.
.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

El Cid said:


> I happen to think discussions are good, even if you have a different view.
> Many people dont see another point of view, posters on here are more likely to be informed and know what to do.
> Who should people take instruction from, or should they make up their own mind?
> My border collie is almost 13 months old, and I like to think doing very well. She is very friendly, too friendly sometimes, well socialised, partly because I take in what different people have written on here.
> ...


OK now I know this thread is a big wind up for you, and you have zero interest in discussing this...

Carry on bigging up the under qualified "quack"... You have been provided with countless links to help you understand, if you choose not to see then that is a reflection of you!


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

El Cid said:


> I happen to think discussions are good, even if you have a different view.
> Many people dont see another point of view, posters on here are more likely to be informed and know what to do.
> Who should people take instruction from, or should they make up their own mind?
> My border collie is almost 13 months old, and I like to think doing very well. She is very friendly, too friendly sometimes, well socialised, partly because I take in what different people have written on here.
> ...


*I like your post, it shows you don't just follow the crowd.
In all the time i have been on here some people will never see any other view of CM, other than he is a waste of space.
Not too long ago i think i must have been his number 1 fan on here, and i would fight his corner all the way.
I still love watching CM, i have a mind of my own and i can choose what, if anything i would take from his show.*


----------



## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

JANICE199 said:


> *I like your post, it shows you don't just follow the crowd.
> In all the time i have been on here some people will never see any other view of CM, other than he is a waste of space.
> Not too long ago i think i must have been his number 1 fan on here, and i would fight his corner all the way.
> I still love watching CM, i have a mind of my own and i can choose what, if anything i would take from his show.*


Just because a lot of us despise the way CM works does not mean we're following the crowd. I had my opinion of him long before joining this site. And nope, unless he changes drastically, I won't change my opinion that he's a waste of space. I've watched his shows, read his books and made my own mind up.


----------



## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Sarah1983 said:


> Just because a lot of us despise the way CM works does not mean we're following the crowd. I had my opinion of him long before joining this site. And nope, unless he changes drastically, I won't change my opinion that he's a waste of space. I've watched his shows, read his books and made my own mind up.


*I didn't say you did. Don't get so defensive, i was just speaking my mind.*


----------



## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

MerlinsMum said:


> As someone very eminent in animal behaviour once observed - *"Cesar Millan sucks all the joy out of being a dog owner."*


Can you say who said that, MM? It's so spot on!


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

JANICE199 said:


> *I like your post, it shows you don't just follow the crowd.
> In all the time i have been on here some people will never see any other view of CM, other than he is a waste of space.
> Not too long ago i think i must have been his number 1 fan on here, and i would fight his corner all the way.
> I still love watching CM, i have a mind of my own and i can choose what, if anything i would take from his show.*


A couple of years ago I genuinely had no opinion of CM because I'd never watched his programmes or read his books. I heard other people saying they liked him and paid a fortune to go to see him and others slating them for it. I really didn't know anything about him or his methods. All I know now is anything I see of his interaction with dogs makes me cry. There is simply no way that it can be right to inflict pain, fear, dominance on an animal we profess to love, whatever the circumstances, its simply wrong. I don't know all the terminology I just know my gut feeling is one of great sadness and disgust closely followed by anger when I watch his videos.

El Cid you ask who people should take instruction from - I guess you have to ask yourself first what you want from your relationship with your dog and whether you feel its right to achieve that by using techniques that involve pain/fear/dominance. You said earlier some people are too soft on their dogs and on their children but would you seriously use those sorts of methods to teach your child? There are plenty of other ways to form a bond and relationship with your dog and to set boundaries just like there are to do so with a child. There is plenty of advice both on this forum and the many other sites out there if you or any other new/inexperienced owner wants to learn.


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

El Cid said:


> I happen to think discussions are good, even if you have a different view.
> Many people dont see another point of view, posters on here are more likely to be informed and know what to do.
> Who should people take instruction from, or should they make up their own mind?
> My border collie is almost 13 months old, and I like to think doing very well. She is very friendly, too friendly sometimes, well socialised, partly because I take in what different people have written on here.
> ...


So if you want to have a discussion, discuss. You're not really doing any discussing that I can see. Other than the cryptic post about children, another unclear post about a head collar that I never quite understood, and the "too soft" thing that you still haven't explained, what are you actually discussing?

Is this about using treats? Is that why you asked on the other thread about how collies are trained, and that there aren't any treats and that you thought positive reinforcement was the way to go? 
Do you understand what positive reinforcement is? PR is defined by the subsequent behavior, not by the use of treats. Anything that is added (that's the positive part), that causes a behavior to repeat and strengthen, is by definition positive reinforcement. Therefore I can be playing tug with my dog, and thump him on his sides and growl at him, and if it causes his tugging behavior to get stronger and more intense (which it does) I have just positively reinforced my dog to tug by hitting him and growling at him.
So no, of course collies don't need treats to be taught to herd. The oppportunity to work with the sheep IS the reward.

The alternative view to positive reinforcement would be negative reinforcement, which is a totally valid way to train. It's the traditional escape avoidance type training that can work perfectly well. IME though negatively reinforced behaviors are never as strong as positively reinforced behaviors, but what do I know 
There is also the issue that some dogs just don't respond as well to R- as they do to R+ which is why you never used to see non-traditional breeds in the obedience ring before R+ really took off. You're just not going to get a basset hound to do a nice, attentive heel with R-. He's going to say "screw this" and shut down on you where a more biddable breed will just try harder.

Not sure why I just bothered to type all that out... Like I said, the information is out there, and for those who want to learn, really nothing can stop you. And for those who refuse to learn, nothing will help them....

Oh, and BTW, not everyone is jealous of your dog


----------



## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> El Cid you ask who people should take instruction from - I guess *you have to ask yourself first what you want from your relationship with your dog* and whether you feel its right to achieve that by using techniques that involve pain/fear/dominance. You said earlier some people are too soft on their dogs and on their children but would you seriously use those sorts of methods to teach your child? There are plenty of other ways to form a bond and relationship with your dog and to set boundaries just like there are to do so with a child. There is plenty of advice both on this forum and the many other sites out there if you or any other new/inexperienced owner wants to learn.


This. Beautifully put.


----------



## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Not sure why I just bothered to type all that out... Like I said, the information is out there, and for those who want to learn, really nothing can stop you. And for those who refuse to learn, nothing will help them....
> 
> Oh, and BTW, not everyone is jealous of your dog


Dont we discuss things to help the OP and the 100x more people that are viewing and contributing.
My post was for people that want to watch CM, and are not aware he is on TV. Discussing his methods and him educate many, I dont say all his methods are good, I dont promote any trainers, just discussions so that people can educate themselves.


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Dont we discuss things to help the OP and the 100x more people that are viewing and contributing.
> My post was for people that want to watch CM, and are not aware he is on TV. Discussing his methods and him educate many, I dont say all his methods are good, I dont promote any trainers, just discussions so that people can educate themselves.


Discussions are good but you haven't really discussed you have just made statements and not answered when people have posted links or video or taken the time to explain in detail why your statements are not correct. You say you don't promote any trainer and don't say all his methods are good but you are promoting him - a few of your statements in this thread

Nice to see him back.

The TV show fixes people's issues with their dogs.

I would not dismiss his talent with dogs.

Some owners are much too soft with their dogs and CM is a remedy to this.

Some owners are much too soft with their children and their dogs. They lack leadership and clear boundaries.

Have you watched any of the videos posted? if so how did he fix the poor labs issues and how is that talent given that he ended up getting bitten?


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Dont we discuss things to help the OP and the 100x more people that are viewing and contributing.
> My post was for people that want to watch CM, and are not aware he is on TV. Discussing his methods and him educate many, I dont say all his methods are good, I dont promote any trainers, just discussions so that people can educate themselves.


Discussion & education are all well & good if every (potential) dog owner is involved.

Mr Millans TV shows are available to millions who will never come to places such as this to be "educated" & may decide, in their ignorance, that it's a good idea to implement his methods.

For the inexperienced owner this can be downright dangerous, as seen in post #62 (showdown with Holly)

In over 30 years of owning dogs I've held the belief that we should work together... dogs generally want to please us, they don't want or like confrontation.

IMO using intimidation, fear, bullying, kicks doesn't train dogs...... it breaks them!


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## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

At 14 years old I had my first dog, he was about a year old. He didn't know anything, I had to house train, lead train, train commands such as sit and wait for his own safety.

I also had to deal with his aggression when his tail was touched as the kids in his previous home hurt him a lot. Within a few months I was able to groom his tail in full, I did get bitten once when I first got him but that was my fault. 

I did all that without choking him, pinning him to the floor, hitting/kicking or shouting at him and he turned out amazingly. If I can train an aggressive dog at 14 without being rough, by myself with no prior experience of training any dog I'm sure other people can. I'm no expert and I've never had a seriously damaged dog but even so....

Anyway back to the present day there's probably at least one thing I don't like about the trainers I know a bit about and I could stick up for those trainers because their methods do no harm. CM is nothing more than an animal abuser in my opinion and no living creature deserves to be terrified or hurt like that. I don't get why people would use such methods when there are other ways, I mean you wouldn't beat a child until it cleaned it's bedroom would you? You would try every other way of getting it to do so without ever resorting to violence or terrorising it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

El Cid said:


> ...
> My post was for people that want to watch CM, & are not aware he is on TV.
> 
> *Discussing his methods & him educate many*, I don't say all his methods are good,
> *I* don't *promote* any trainers, just *discussions, so that people can educate themselves.*


Ri-i-i-i-ight, Sid. :yesnod: I can totally see that U've been 'educated' by past discussions. 

I will note, for anyone who hasn't noticed, that our helpful host has never posted a notice for any
of the many *humane* trainers who actually have *credentials* & would offer real info -
their TV-appearances, workshops, seminars, webinars, books, videos, U-Tube clips, articles, et al.
That's material that could genuinely teach PF-uk members things they'd want to know, or could use...

unlike free advertising for Mr Toothy, who primarily provides excellent exemplars of how NOT to train,
& how NOT to do B-Mod. :huh: Hmmm. Perhaps U haven't been as well-educated as U thought, Sid?
.
.


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Dont we discuss things to help the OP and the 100x more people that are viewing and contributing.


Discussion is good. Absolutely. But discussion about Cesar Milan tends to find his advocates brushing over (or even airbrushing out) the 'bits they don't like' and making empty statements such as 'his show fixes dogs with issues' or 'he's a last resort to fix dogs' or saying that they like bits of his methods.

The problem is that this leads many of us to feel the need to respond.

Yes, of course 'bit's of his programme are ok ....I saw him use treats once and he advocates good exercise for dogs. But to me if you work with Cesar you also support his mantra that everything is solved though dominance. It means you support the Alpha Roll and standing up to and confronting a dog to get them to back down. You really can't have one bit without the other. Because that *is* Cesars method.

And that's where some of us get frustrated.

I would be happy for one of his supporters to tell me why I should Alpha Roll my dog. It is a method I dislike with a vengence. I have seen the consequences (first hand) of this method being used repetitively on dogs. In fact, maybe if someone Alpha Rolled Cesar Milan he may begin to understand how this makes a dog feel. Scared.

There is an episode of Cesar 'rehabilitating' a nervous dog who was scared of rubbish bins by dragging the petrified dog past the bins until he didn't shake any more. Any trainer worth his salt could have done it in half the time and without subjecting the dog to such an ordeal by employing simple systematic desensitisation.

So yes, wave the flag for Cesar and you will get responses. And yes, I hope people do read and decide for themselves.

I know which way I work.

J


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Ownedbymany said:


> CM is nothing more than an animal abuser in my opinion and no living creature deserves to be terrified or hurt like that. I don't get why people would use such methods when there are other ways, I mean you wouldn't beat a child until it cleaned it's bedroom would you? You would try every other way of getting it to do so without ever resorting to violence or terrorising it.


My thoughts exactly.

I'm certainly no expert on training but I get by doing what works for me.

I've always found that patience, consistancy & trust works, my dogs aren't perfect but they do what I ask of them. I always feel that if you have to resort to intimidation, fear to "train" an animal.... you've failed!


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

El Cid said:


> Dont we discuss things to help the OP and the 100x more people that are viewing and contributing.
> My post was for people that want to watch CM, and are not aware he is on TV. Discussing his methods and him educate many, I dont say all his methods are good, I dont promote any trainers, just discussions so that people can educate themselves.


But you're not discussing. You're making statements, some fairly absolute statements at that, and not really acknowledging anything other posters have said. I don't think you mean it to be, but it comes off as pretty rude actually...

El Cid, your posts reveal that you don't have the knowledge or experience to have much of a discussion on dog training anyway. 
Let me be clear, I don't mean that in a disparaging way at all. Just a statement of fact. For example, I don't have the knowledge or experience to have a discussion about make-up or beauty products. I can slap on some mascara and lipstick if I have to, but I just don't have the kind of knowledge to be able to form any sort of viable opinion about how to apply make-up or what products to use (other than they not be tested on animals for example).

If you are genuinely interested in learning some stuff about dog training, have a look at some of the links posted in this very thread. Read up on dog body language, watch dogs interacting and see if you notice some of the stuff you read up on. Then go back and watch trainers interacting with dogs and look at the dogs and see how they are responding.

There is so much to learn, have fun learning instead of deciding you already have it all figured out


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

All those that feel so strongly should be emailing the BBC and other program makers. Is it around a third of homes that own dogs? There must be lots of people interested, I have watched a few training clips on youtube.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

El Cid said:


> All those that feel so strongly should be emailing the BBC and other program makers. Is it around a third of homes that own dogs? There must be lots of people interested, I have watched a few training clips on youtube.


See... I don't even know what this post means.


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## Ownedbymany (Nov 16, 2014)

El Cid said:


> All those that feel so strongly should be emailing the BBC and other program makers. Is it around a third of homes that own dogs? There must be lots of people interested, I have watched a few training clips on youtube.


Well that doesn't make much sense, interest, educating oneself and supporting something are entirely different things.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

El Cid said:


> All those that feel so strongly should be e-mailing the BBC and other program makers.
> Is it around a third of homes that own dogs?
> There must be lots of people interested, I've watched a few training clips on YouTube.





ouesi said:


> See... I don't even know what this post means.


At a guess - i'd say Sid is suggesting that those who don't want CM / DW to have a bully-pulpit on UK-tv
should write the BBC with their objections. Or, conversely, they'd suggest that another humane, credentialed
trainer from the UK be selected & promoted, rather than a TV-host with no credentials who's an import.

But that's only a guess. I don't really know what was intended.
.
.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

I've decided that these threads make a pretty apt metaphor for dog training itself. 

Poster opens with an all hail to the king of tsst.

One could start by simply ignoring the undesired behavior.
But then, some behaviors are too dangerous to ignore. So they have to be addressed.

So at this point, you look at motivators. 
Is the motivation wanting a great relationship with your dog?
Is it a desire to have the dog well trained, reliable, responding to every cue quickly and eagerly?
Is it a combination of things?
Maybe the poster is motivated by a fear that if the dog does not mind he/she will be injured or worse?

Patience and persistance, clear instructions, and a good understanding of motivators does get results - with most subjects.

Always important to address the emotional state as well. You want to be working with the front part of the brain if you're applying learning theory. High stress causes the subject to move to the more primitive part of his/her brain and engage the fight/flight/freeze response. No learning is happening here, just survival.
Granted there has to be a properly functioning CNS to work with to begin with too...

And of course, positive punishment rarely works as intended, but it sure is satisfying to the punisher. 

Yes... I can see the connection here


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## Shikoku (Dec 16, 2013)

I've been reading this thread for a while, I've found it really interesting and I've learnt some things I never knew before 

Before learning more about Dogs I had watched Cesar and I thought he was ok, I thought he actually helped the dogs and owners. It's with trepidation I say this as I know what kind of response it may get but my family dogs were treated in a similar way and although I'd rather not admit this but my family were incredibly old fashioned with dog training it seems. If our dogs did something wrong then my dad would hit and tell them off, if it was really bad then my dad would often hit them with a newspaper or belt; he would say they only learnt their lesson if they yelped. Pups would be house trained by rubbing their noses in any wee accidents in the house and putting them outside. :frown:

Knowing what I now know, it has made me feel incredibly guilty that I grew up watching that and believing it was a 'normal' way for my dad to treat our dogs. Our family dogs were my best friends and I could never understand why you would hit something you claimed to love so much. After my parents split, domestic violence. Over time I began to learn more about dogs and their body language which has really helped opened my eyes. Watching Cesar's show without the sound and paying attention to the dogs body language, it puts the show in a different perspective for me and it makes his shows rather uncomfortable for me to watch now so I don't watch them. Watching more positive based training methods being used and seeing the difference in the dogs body language was amazing to me.

Even the breeder I'm hoping to get a puppy from told me she was told years ago by breeders the only way to handle her dog misbehaving was to hit him if he did wrong but she discovered it only made him worse and aggressive towards her. She began seeing improvements when she began trying more positive based methods which she now encourages and I really admire her for admitting her previous training methods weren't working.

I've been researching a lot in to positive methods over the last couple of years trying to learn as much as I can before getting a pup of my own, I have also spent a lot of time finding a training class that uses positive methods that can help guide me with my future pup too. In the meantime I've been practising my rather poor new found training skills on my mums dog and we both really enjoy it, I've found we've become more bonded too which is really nice. Also discovered training isn't anywhere near as easy as it sounds or comes across :lol:

Bit of a nonsense ramble post, sorry!


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Old Shep said:


> Can you say who said that, MM? It's so spot on!


I'll have to find the exact quote, but it was in Prof. John Bradshaw's book In Defence of Dogs (aka Dog Sense in USA).


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

I suspect anyone who is a bit older has experience of heavy handed dog training.
I remember watching Barbara Woodhouse when I was a teenager- she was a bit of a figure of fun, with her severe hairdo, tweed skirts and brogues. It never occurred to me that she could be worsening issues- but then I suspect, outside academia, most people thought that way. As we had a small min poodle, we never had to resort to choke chains. I do remember the training class I went to explaining the correct use of one as the vast majority of dogs did wear one.

Fast forward to around 10 years ago and the emergence of CM. I too was initially impressed, and like most dog owners in the UK, would feel quite smug when he emphasised to owners that their dogs -OMG!!- needed excersise. Then I saw a programme with a goldie who didn't like going upsatairs. It didn't look in the first flush of puppyhood, and it occurred to me that it may be in pain. But St. Cesar took it my the lead and literally dragged it up the stairs. I had tears in my eyes for this poor dog. The owner had said that their daughter wanted the dog to come upstairs so she could have it in her room. That statement alone created lots of questions in my mind.

Then I started looking more closely at him and his methods........

There is a person who lives locally and is well known for rescuing "difficult" dogs. She appears to get results (maybe we just don't see her failures) and her dogs all seem fine. She says some of them have had real Agression issues. She was a big CM fan-alpha rolls-the lot! I still don't know how she managed to sort these dogs out using lack handed methods. I can only assume that some dogs will respond - but that is no way an endorsement, as, from an ethical point of view, there is ABSOLUTLY no need use unpleasant and painful methods, when positive methods are not only better, but more effective.

So, I suspect that's why CM is still around. Unfortunatly.

Sorry, a bit of a ramble


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Shikoku said:


> I've been reading this thread for a while, I've found it really interesting and I've learnt some things I never knew before
> 
> Bit of a nonsense ramble post, sorry!


Even rambling posts can be useful, what do you think ouesi?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Old Shep said:


> I suspect anyone who is a bit older has experience of heavy handed dog training.
> I remember watching Barbara Woodhouse when I was a teenager- she was a bit of a figure of fun, with her severe hairdo, tweed skirts and brogues. It never occurred to me that she could be worsening issues- but then I suspect, outside academia, most people thought that way. As we had a small min poodle, we never had to resort to choke chains. I do remember the training class I went to explaining the correct use of one as the vast majority of dogs did wear one.
> 
> Fast forward to around 10 years ago and the emergence of CM. I too was initially impressed, and like most dog owners in the UK, would feel quite smug when he emphasised to owners that their dogs -OMG!!- needed excersise. Then I saw a programme with a goldie who didn't like going upsatairs. It didn't look in the first flush of puppyhood, and it occurred to me that it may be in pain. But St. Cesar took it my the lead and literally dragged it up the stairs. I had tears in my eyes for this poor dog. The owner had said that their daughter wanted the dog to come upstairs so she could have it in her room. That statement alone created lots of questions in my mind.
> ...


He did the same thing with an eleven month old St Bernard, dragging him up a slippery spiral staircase for no better reason than that the owners wanted him in their bedroom. No telling them they were selfish and growing giants should not be anywhere near stairs, probably damaged his joints and what sort of 'training' was it supposed to be? There was no way the dog was going to do it without him to drag him up there, so what has he learned? He's learned that he was right to scared of stairs and now he's even more scared of stairs.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> Even rambling posts can be useful, what do you think ouesi?


The difference is its a rambling post that shows someone who has been prepared to listen, research, learn and most importantly change beliefs rather than spouting opinions they can't substantiate or making statements they never explain.

Shikoku don't feel guilty, we are not responsible for how our parents behave when we are children. My Mum was similar, she doesn't like dogs, never did, my sister nagged and nagged until she let her have one but the poor dog was chained up in the garden a lot of the time, he was allowed to sleep in the kitchen but would often toilet in there. When she came downstairs in the morning she would shout at him, rub his nose in it and hit him. My sister and I cried with shame and horror. The dog was eventually rehomed to a nice old man who came back and told my Mum the dog had collitis and couldn't help what she had been punishing him for  with treatment and a change of diet he no longer messed indoors. I'm pleased to say he lived out his days in peace with that man and I never made the mistake my sister made of asking my Mum if I could have a dog even though I longed for one. I waited until I was with my OH and the rest as they say is history but I would not leave any of my dogs in my Mum's care, ever, even now many years later. All we can do is learn by their mistakes and keep on learning.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

"One volunteer is worth 10 pressed men."

"More bees round the honey pot than the baseball bat."

I don't think violence ever really works in the long run....I know nothing of CM, not something that ever interested me.

I thought Barbara Woodhouse was a weird woman and I was still a kid when everybody thought she could walk on water.

All these people have made a small fortune from what they do...and there is no such thing as bad publicity.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> "One volunteer is worth 10 pressed men."
> 
> "More bees round the honey pot than the baseball bat."
> 
> ...


You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar


Technically you catch more flies with $hit, which might explain some of CM's success


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Shikoku said:


> I've been reading this thread for a while, I've found it really interesting and I've learnt some things I never knew before
> 
> Before learning more about Dogs I had watched Cesar and I thought he was ok, I thought he actually helped the dogs and owners. It's with trepidation I say this as I know what kind of response it may get but my family dogs were treated in a similar way and although I'd rather not admit this but my family were incredibly old fashioned with dog training it seems. If our dogs did something wrong then my dad would hit and tell them off, if it was really bad then my dad would often hit them with a newspaper or belt; he would say they only learnt their lesson if they yelped. Pups would be house trained by rubbing their noses in any wee accidents in the house and putting them outside. :frown:
> 
> ...


All any of us can do is the best we know. Like you I grew up with dogs being hit with newspapers as punishment, dogs being yelled at. I trained my first 2 dogs using similar methods and I feel incredibly guilty about that now. But I knew no better. At the time the information was nowhere near as readily available or accessible as it is now, there was no internet for a start! And everyone I knew trained the same way, always had done.

Once I learned other ways existed I started researching and experimenting with them. It was really difficult at first, my timing sucked, I hadn't a clue what I was doing, there were no classes available anywhere near me and very, very few videos! But I liked the results I was getting and persevered. Now I wouldn't go back if you paid me. Oh there are times when I can see the appeal of something like a prong collar, I'd be lying if I said there weren't. But while using one would likely get me the much sought after loose leash when out with Spen I'm not prepared to pay the price for going down that route with training.

If people want to jump on us for the fact we've used less than positive methods then let them. The main thing is, imo at least, that we've learned more, moved on and are looking at what's best for our dogs.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> "A couple of years ago I genuinely had no opinion of CM because I'd never watched his programmes or read his books. I heard other people saying they liked him and paid a fortune to go to see him and others slating them for it. "
> 
> When we brought our first every puppy home 7 years ago, we were very keen to do the right thing. Among other things, we avidly followed the doggy programmes on tv at the time - Dog Whisperer & Dog Borstal
> And we did find some of the advice offered applicable. The ideas of consistent behaviour, 'exercise, discipline, affection' worked. It doesn't matter to me where they first evolved, I have to admit, I first heard them on these programmes.
> ...


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> "El Cid you ask who people should take instruction from - I guess you have to ask yourself first what you want from your relationship with your dog and whether you feel its right to achieve that by using techniques that involve pain/fear/dominance. ".....


My 1 year old border collie follows me around everywhere, I should really teach her to stay downstairs and not run up them numerous times per day, so I guess I havnt followed CMs fear tactics. I am quite capable of watching a TV program and not taking in every word, hopefully others do that too.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Erm, that was a quote from Rottie - that I was referring to


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Delilahdog how does eating before your dog tell her that you are in charge? that isn't a confrontational question by the way - I'm just intrigued. I've always fed my dogs before me, just one of those routines we have and I've seriously never had any reason to suspect this has made my dogs think they are taking over, we all rub along just fine. I do understand why teaching a dog to wait before getting out of the car or going out of a door to the outside is a good idea from a safety point of view but not as a way of demonstrating dominance.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Dominance theory says that the alpha eats first, every other wolf pack ever observed the cubs eat first. But people still cling to the idea that eating before your dog, making it walk to heel all the time and walking through doors before it makes you alpha


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Nicky10 said:


> Dominance theory says that the alpha eats first, every other wolf pack ever observed the cubs eat first. But people still cling to the idea that eating before your dog, making it walk to heel all the time and walking through doors before it makes you alpha


Yes I've heard that in relation to dominance/alpha but wondered if that is the reason delilihadog does it and what the rationale is behind it.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Delilahdog how does eating before your dog tell her that you are in charge? that isn't a confrontational question by the way - I'm just intrigued. I've always fed my dogs before me, just one of those routines we have and I've seriously never had any reason to suspect this has made my dogs think they are taking over, we all rub along just fine. I do understand why teaching a dog to wait before getting out of the car or going out of a door to the outside is a good idea from a safety point of view but not as a way of demonstrating dominance.


Rottie, I just meant that these things work for us and IF they also are assertive I don't see the harm, because I am not actively punishing her or depriving her. But this is not the main reason for doing it.
I used to teach kids to ski. One of the number one rules of the class was that none of the kids overtook the instructor. This was obviously a safety feature but it was also a way of commanding respect. BTW none of the kids were ever punished for overtaking if they did it by accident, if they did it deliberately the consequence was that they had to ski at the back of the line. I suppose I see parallels although I know dogs are not children.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, I just don't get why anyone would think about it so hard, there really isn't any point.

I've been keeping dogs for forty years now, my own and rescues through here, and I've always fed them before I ate.

I used to feed my Sons, then the dogs and then my late Husband and me.

I like to eat quite late, around 8 p.m. and I'm not going to make Rosie wait that long, it wouldn't be fair.

I've never had one of my dogs bite me, try to bite me or challenge me in any way, (other than Terrier naughtiness).

To me, it's really about making a point when there isn't a point to be made.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I've always wondered something about going through doors...does this apply to EVERY door? I always go through the front door first when going out but that's for safety reasons. But I don't expect my dog to hang around waiting for me to go through interior doors first. Or the front door when coming back in.

To be honest, when I've had more than one dog whichever one got to the door first went through it first.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The door thing never made any sense to me. Why would the alpha, one of the essential breeding pair of the pack, go through a narrow opening with limited vision on the other side first? Surely if you believed in a hierarchy you'd send one of the lower ranking wolves through first?


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> Well, I just don't get why anyone would think about it so hard, there really isn't any point.
> 
> I've been keeping dogs for forty years now, my own and rescues through here, and I've always fed them before I ate.
> 
> ...


Same here with all sorts of dogs, rescues or from pup, mainly rotties but other breeds too. I always empty the dishwasher then toilet/feed the dogs before having my own breakfast and in the evening the dogs are walked and fed before we have ours. I've only had one dog bite me in 30 odd years and that was a very troubled rescue who we hadn't got to know the triggers for. We once had a "trainer/behaviourist" tell us all that blurb about eating first, doing through doors first, not letting the dog get above you on the sofa or stairs etc etc but I seriously couldn't have been bothered with all that, life is too short and we've got by perfectly well without it. Now I'll just go and ask Indie if she minds shoving up on the sofa so I can sit down :001_smile:


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm sorry..I can't help it


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> I've always wondered something about going through doors...does this apply to EVERY door? I always go through the front door first when going out but that's for safety reasons. But I don't expect my dog to hang around waiting for me to go through interior doors first. Or the front door when coming back in.
> 
> To be honest, when I've had more than one dog whichever one got to the door first went through it first.


I don't know what 'dominance theory' would state but when I leave the house or the car or exit any building I like to go first. It isn't to show whose boss. If Delilah is off the lead I can check it's ok to let her roam free. If she is on the lead (which we are not good at) I am less likely to get yanked down the stairs unprepared. It doesn't apply indoors 
There are probably a zillion better ways of doing this but this works for us.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I think the 'theory' is that you own the door and you reserve the right to go through first.

Rosie knows the "wait" command, so if I open the gate at the back of my garden, I will tell her to wait, so that I can check there are no cats around.

Otherwise, in the house, she often goes through doors in front of me and, surprise, surprise, she has never turned into a ravening wolf on the other side and tried to rip my throat out.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2015)

Sometimes I need my dog to go first, sometimes I need to go first. I communicate that to the dogs. Done.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Delilahdog said:


> I don't know what 'dominance theory' would state but when I leave the house or the car or exit any building I like to go first. It isn't to show whose boss. If Delilah is off the lead I can check it's ok to let her roam free. If she is on the lead (which we are not good at) I am less likely to get yanked down the stairs unprepared. It doesn't apply indoors
> There are probably a zillion better ways of doing this but this works for us.


Oh for sensible reasons I get it, I go first coming out of the house, went up and downstairs on the bus first with my dog aggressive dog (no coming face to face with another dog that way!) and stuff like that. It's the "always go through doors before your dog" thing I don't get. EVERY door? At all times? That's hardly practical surely 

I can tell Spen to go through or wait depending on whether I want him through first or whether I want to go through first.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Sarah1983 said:


> Oh for sensible reasons I get it, I go first coming out of the house, went up and downstairs on the bus first with my dog aggressive dog (no coming face to face with another dog that way!) and stuff like that. It's the "always go through doors before your dog" thing I don't get. EVERY door? At all times? That's hardly practical surely
> 
> I can tell Spen to go through or wait depending on whether I want him through first or whether I want to go through first.


Y'know, we live in a pretty open plan house and Delilah is not allowed upstairs, so I never thought through the indoor thing. 
It is something that was probably first suggested to me as a dominance thing but we've stuck with it for completely different reasons you see.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Shikoku said:


> I've been reading this thread for a while... found it really interesting, & I've learnt some things I never knew, before.
> 
> Before learning more about dogs, I'd watched Cesar & thought he was ok, I thought he actually helped dogs & owners.
> It's with trepidation I say this, as I know what kind of response it may get, but my family dogs were treated in a similar way
> ...


Not at all -
it's the most-encouraging comment i've seen on this repetitive thread, with so many of the same facts,
common experiences, statements from dog-pros with academic chops explaining WHY & HOW Mr Millan is wrong,
& so on - i doubt *L Sid* is listening, but obviously, once U were no longer a child, U went on to learn better
& kinder ways as an adult, & more power to ya! :thumbup:

Enjoy the rep, hun - it's very well-deserved, & don't forget to post pix of that future puppy. 
We're suckers for puppies. :laugh:


Old Shep said:


> I suspect anyone who's a bit older has experience of heavy-handed dog training.
> 
> I remember watching Barbara Woodhouse when I was a teenager- she was a bit of a figure of fun, with her severe hairdo,
> tweed skirts & brogues. It never occurred to me she could be worsening issues - but then I suspect, outside academia,
> ...


CM / DW appeals to the Puritan streak in all European civilization; the whole Judeo- Christian ethic is wrapped up
in punishment, evil vs good, deserved suffering, & so on. But it's never been very logical; the early Christian church
was a commune, & women enjoyed equal status - but that didn't last.
Soon after came the belief that if U were sick, or suffered a financial loss, GOD WAS PUNISHING YOU...
U'd been "bad", U'd "sinned", & this was the result.
Now, we know germs cause disease, genes cause developmental issues, & no "sin" is committed.

But we still dearly love to punish - that part is unchanged. Why do U think we have a record percentage of citizens
in the USA behind bars?...


rottiepointerhouse said:


> ... a rambling post that shows someone who's been prepared to listen, research, learn, & most importantly, change beliefs
> rather than spout opinions they can't substantiate, or make statements they never explain.
> 
> Shikoku, don't feel guilty; we're not responsible for how our parents behave when we're children. My Mum was similar,
> ...


I grew-up in a violent household, too, & not only the nonhumans were struck. My sire was the primary source
of the abuse, & when he was in a temper, anyone close-enuf was hit - whether they'd been responsible for what
ever had p*ssed him off, or were as innocent as the day was long, didn't matter. :huh: Our pets, we kids,
anyone could be the target of his fist, his feet, a belt, & 'justice' was a joke.

I began as a 10-YO in 4-H, taking my 1st pup thru obedience in a group class - but thankfully, Mrs Arnold was cut
from entirely-different cloth than my foul-tempered sire, & tho she was demanding of her human students,
she was very fair, consistent, & clear with the dogs; she bred gorgeous GSDs, & her dogs would argue over
who would get to work beside her, off-leash. :lol:


lilythepink said:


> "One volunteer is worth 10 pressed men."
> 
> "More bees round the honey pot than the baseball bat."
> 
> ...


All too true. :nonod:

BTW, Mickey Dolan of the Monkees had a great UTube video, with B&W footage of Ms Woodhouse running a class,
& Mickey impersonating her with a cheerful, ruthless falsetto voice-over. :lol: It was brilliant!


ouesi said:


> Technically, you catch more flies with $hit, which might explain some of CM's success.


_'Ah, yes, Watson - very true.'_ [twiddles moustache]


Sarah1983 said:


> All any of us can do is the best we know. Like you, I grew up with dogs being hit with newspapers as punishment, dogs being yelled at.
> I trained my first 2 dogs using similar methods & feel incredibly guilty about that now. But I knew no better.
> At the time, the information was nowhere near as readily available or accessible as now; there was no internet,
> for a start! And everyone I knew trained the same way; always had done.
> ...


*Click! *Brava! :thumbup:
.
.


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

My parents had a dog before I was born so there have always been dogs...listening to this about alpha, going through doors first..or not..eating before or after the dog...totally confused here and am wondering how I ever managed to have lived all my life with mulitipe dogs and managed to survive and actually love the dogs and enjoy my time with them?

I get up...stumble downstairs to the bathroom....first dog in a crate hears me and its playtime and she howls to let me know she caught me and its now I wish we had a toilet upstairs...but we don't. 

I chuck 3 dogs out of their crates and outside for a wee....I put their breakfasts in a bowl in each crate....they are waiting and whining on my back door step....I flick the coffee machine on as I go to let them in....they rush past me to go to their own crates for food....I feed the dakkie still in his bed cos its not yet dinner time and he needs his beauty sleep.....bullmastiff is now waiting patiently for her food...I put her bowl and her outside ...never ceases to amaze me that after at least 8 hours sleep, she can still go outside, get excited about her breakfast, eat it and not wet her self like I would most probably had done if I had had to wait.

I have my coffee....husband comes down...he has coffee....then we start the day with whatever we need to do and dogs come too.

Around 4pm...sometimes later, sometimes earlier..dogs get another meal. We eat round 7pm cos earlier than that is just too early.

Don't understand this need to dominate....would much rather have a volunteer...so, maybe as I just don't understand all this stuff I should give up with dogs...cos I have bumbled along without a clue about any of it for all these years.

My dogs are well behaved...until bullmastiff sees a kid somewhere and she goes totally deaf on me.


----------



## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> Don't understand this need to dominate....*would much rather have a volunteer*...


Spot on... which is why this domination stuff gets right up my nose.

Have a read of John Bradshaw's book (this is to anyone on here who hasn't), and you might find a lot of things fall into place.

In Defence of Dogs: Why Dogs Need Our Understanding: Amazon.co.uk: John Bradshaw: 9780141046495: Books

Dog Sense: How the New Science of Dog Behavior Can Make You A Better Friend to Your Pet: John Bradshaw: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicky10 said:


> Dominance theory says that the alpha eats first, every other wolf pack ever observed the cubs eat first. But people still cling to the idea that eating before your dog, making it walk to heel all the time and walking through doors before it makes you alpha


I didn't get Diva till she was three and half and I think she was taught to go through doors after the people. It is a damned nuisance to be honest, when I'm trying to get both of them out of the gate to have to go back and collect her lead or collar or she won't move. Most pavements and paths aren't wide enough for all three of us if the dogs are walking to heel and as to walking behind me, I like to be able to see them all the time, or I have the inconvenience of having to keep turning round; how is that being in charge? There was someone on this forum once whose wife had taken on a full grown Great Dane and was having difficulty staying higher than him and was afraid he might think he was the pack leader. What utter tosh!


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

newfiesmum said:


> I didn't get Diva till she was three and half and I think she was taught to go through doors after the people. It is a damned nuisance to be honest, when I'm trying to get both of them out of the gate to have to go back and collect her lead or collar or she won't move. Most pavements and paths aren't wide enough for all three of us if the dogs are walking to heel and as to walking behind me, I like to be able to see them all the time, or I have the inconvenience of having to keep turning round; how is that being in charge? There was someone on this forum once whose wife had taken on a full grown Great Dane and was having difficulty staying higher than him and was afraid he might think he was the pack leader. What utter tosh!


If I am out with my dogs they will hopefully be off lead cos I usually only take them round my own fields or down to the beach...and they are never in front or behind but all round. If they do go on a lead....like when I take them round a car boot sale or something for a bit of socialising, they are in front and I never thought about that until I just read this thread.

I don't do any training and if we go for a walk its simply to chill. My dogs are probably wasted with me and maybe should have gone to a home where they would be constantly stimulated. They don't have babies, don't have coats and aren't constantly looking to me for what to do next......and I can't think of anything more boring than showing. Each to his own, I suppose we all have and want dogs for different reasons.

Now, should they go out into my barns and kill some rats and mice, they did me a good days work. When they bark at someone coming to the house...another good job well done.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

lilythepink said:


> If I am out with my dogs they will hopefully be off lead cos I usually only take them round my own fields or down to the beach...and they are never in front or behind but all round. If they do go on a lead....like when I take them round a car boot sale or something for a bit of socialising, they are in front and I never thought about that until I just read this thread.
> 
> I don't do any training and if we go for a walk its simply to chill. My dogs are probably wasted with me and maybe should have gone to a home where they would be constantly stimulated. They don't have babies, don't have coats and aren't constantly looking to me for what to do next......and I can't think of anything more boring than showing. Each to his own, I suppose we all have and want dogs for different reasons.
> 
> Now, should they go out into my barns and kill some rats and mice, they did me a good days work. When they bark at someone coming to the house...another good job well done.


Precisely. Mine are never on a lead unless there is a reason for it, but I can't walk Ferdie on a lead because he doesn't like it and has a habit of sitting his 12 stone down and refusing to move. I take them in the car to where they can be off lead and they are in front of me unless they stop to sniff because I can't walk very fast. After a while they stop and wait for me!


----------



## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I didn't get Diva till she was three and half and I think she was taught to go through doors after the people. It is a damned nuisance to be honest, when I'm trying to get both of them out of the gate to have to go back and collect her lead or collar or she won't move. Most pavements and paths aren't wide enough for all three of us if the dogs are walking to heel and as to walking behind me, I like to be able to see them all the time, or I have the inconvenience of having to keep turning round; how is that being in charge? There was someone on this forum once whose wife had taken on a full grown Great Dane and was having difficulty staying higher than him and was afraid he might think he was the pack leader. What utter tosh!


When they say that all I can think of is the ridiculous scene in the king and I where he's all head shall not be higher than king . I can't imagine living with an animal I'm convinced will turn on me at any second unless I carried out rituals at all times. I don't understand why you would get a dog if you thought that.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> I didn't get Diva till she was three and half and I think she was taught to go through doors after the people. It is a damned nuisance to be honest, when I'm trying to get both of them out of the gate to have to go back and collect her lead or collar or she won't move. Most pavements and paths aren't wide enough for all three of us if the dogs are walking to heel and as to walking behind me, I like to be able to see them all the time, or I have the inconvenience of having to keep turning round; how is that being in charge? *There was someone on this forum once whose wife had taken on a full grown Great Dane and was having difficulty staying higher than him and was afraid he might think he was the pack leader. What utter tosh*!


I remember that, something about when the wife sat down the dane's head was higher than hers or something?

Pfft... my kids spent many years being shorter than the great danes unless they stood on the furniture. Same kid who was "lower" than her dog also had more control over her dog at beginner's agility than many adults had over their pocket pooches.


----------



## Guest (Mar 1, 2015)

lilythepink said:


> Don't understand this need to dominate....would much rather have a volunteer...


Yup.

I see my relationship with my dogs as a partnership. Some things I take care of, some things they take care of. I'm no match to their superior senses so when they tell me there is something out in the woods, I defer to them. When we're navigating the busy streets in the city, they defer to me.

I like to think we make a pretty good team.


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I remember that, something about when the wife sat down the dane's head was higher than hers or something?
> 
> Pfft... my kids spent many years being shorter than the great danes unless they stood on the furniture. Same kid who was "lower" than her dog also had more control over her dog at beginner's agility than many adults had over their pocket pooches.


That's the one. She thought she had to pin him down for five minutes to let him know who was boss, silly cow. I think I remember suggesting he made her some stilts, or somethingut:


----------



## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Yup.
> 
> I see my relationship with my dogs as a partnership. Some things I take care of, some things they take care of. I'm no match to their superior senses so when they tell me there is something out in the woods, I defer to them. When we're navigating the busy streets in the city, they defer to me.
> 
> I like to think we make a pretty good team.


I've just come back from walking my two with my friend who also has two newfies. That is quite a sight, and quite a team when they are all getting loads of fuss from people then we tell them come and they stop what they are doing and follow us. And guess what? They have no idea what a pack leader is. Once we were out and some bloke asked which one was the pack leader - I just walked off with the dogs, couldn't be bothered.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Interesting article on the pack/dominance malarky Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

BlackadderUK said:


> Interesting article on the pack/ dominance malarky
> 
> Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors


*the Welfare in Dog Training watershed event:*
_Did U know..._ Mr Millan keeps a flock of lawyers on retainer, & when a large cluster of non-profit organizations
got together to promote HUMANE training - in direct contrast to the As-Seen-&-Shown-On-TV sort of "handling" -
he had his gang of legal-Beagles threaten them, individually, with lawsuits?... Notice was sent by registered post.

It was suggested that if the organization tactfully & quietly withdrew within X days, the lawsuit would not be filed. :sosp:

so it's not "just" dogs he intimidates - it's humans, too. :nono: As a direct result, a number of US-based groups,
without deep pockets to contest even a groundless lawsuit, withdrew from that international umbrella organization, 
as they feared the distinct possibility of being bankrupted by a very-expensive legal challenge.

here's the current roster:
ORGANISATIONS SUPPORTING THE POSITION STATEMENT

At least a half-dozen USA humane non-profits, among them the ASPCA & AHA, were intimidated into withdrawing
as charter signatories of the organization - the SOLE remaining USA-representative is AVSAB, American
Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviorists - the vet-behaviorists society. :nonod:

that's the kind of thing one can do with impunity, with a multi-million dollar war-chest to back Ur opinion. :huh:
_*"It's good to be the King..."*_

Mr Millan is not shy about throwing his weight around - in my entirely-ignorant & hopelessly-biased,
unjustified, unprofessional opinion, of course. :blushing: After all, he's the 'expert' - right?...

_'What′s Wrong with Using 'Dominance' to Explain the Behaviour of Dogs?'_
What?s wrong with using ?dominance&rs to explain the behaviour of dogs?

_'What are the Implications of Using Training Techniques Which Induce Fear or Pain in Dogs?'_
What are the Implications of Using Training Techniques Which Induce Fear or Pain in Dogs?

_'Should I Follow Status Reduction Programmes with my Dog?'_
Should I Follow Status Reduction Programmes with my Dog?

All that B_____S____ about _"eat 1st"_ & _"walk ahead of the dog"_ & _"be taller than the dog"_ --- ????

Complete fabrication; IF they were actually true, how would any blind handler *control* her or his Guide Dog?
How would a wheelchair-user with very limited upper-body strength & weak grip *control* that SD?...
How would a hunter with a hard-running gundog, racing *ahead* of her or him, *control* that dog?

Dogs don't 'need' pain, intimidation, harsh handling, confrontation, flooding, intense stress, or any other 
As-Seen-on-TV tools or techniques promoted by certain TV-hosts. :thumbdown: They're not only unnecessary;
they do damage. Most of all, dogs don't *need* PUNISHMENT to learn.
.
.


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## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

cant say ive noticed him back on TV?

was he ever 'off' tv?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CANOLOGY said:


> ...
> was he ever 'off' TV?


*L Sid* celebrated the fact that Mr Toothy is again broadcasting new episodes on UK-tv;
the [EDIT: unknown digital channel] obviously wants eyeballs they can sell to, & aren't overly fussed about 
how they get them.

meanwhile, in more-enlightened countries with less money-grubbing broadcast industries - Portugal, Norway,
possibly Spain, a few others - he's been BANNED from the broadcast airwaves.

If U live in Norway & want to watch the Dawg Wrassler pin dogs, U have to buy a DVD. 

In the USA, he's been in re-runs for years - so even if he's not making new episodes, there are still all
the wonderful classics: *'How to Drag a Frightened Dog Across a Slippery Floor'* [Kane], 
*'How to Make a Mandatory-Grooming Small Dog Bite'* [the Bichon], 
*'How to Provoke Resource-Guarding in a Pet Dog'* [the F Viszla], 
*'How to Choke the Airway Off in a Dog Who's Done Nothing'* [the Mal-mix],
*'How to Pin a Terrified Dog Until He P*sses Himself'* [the Jindo],
*& many more!...*

In short, if U want to learn how to be bitten, how to provoke bites, how to harshly handle... he's The Man, IMO.

Additionally, U can learn nonsense he's concocted: lifting a dog's tail up with the leash as a handle will make
that dog happier.  Eating before U feed Ur dog will make her or him more compliant.  Saying, *"Tssst!...*, 
will cause any dog to STOP doing any unwanted behavior, instantly. :w00t:

And, if U pay very close attn indeed, among the puffery & snake-oil, there are hidden truths [that were old
& long-since anonymous when i was in elementary school], that he's kind enuf to pass along.
*'Dogs need exercise.'* Duh! -- *'Dogs need consistency.'* Amazing!... & similar gems.

in my opinion?...
If U want to waste time searching for facts, watch him - by all means. If U don't like to see unhappy dogs
who are being coerced in various ways, or punished with aversive tools, i'd skip it.
.
.


----------



## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> *L Sid* celebrated the fact that Mr Toothy is again broadcasting new episodes on UK-tv;
> the BBC obviously wants eyeballs they can sell to, & aren't overly fussed about how they get them.
> 
> meanwhile, in more-enlightened countries with less money-grubbing broadcast industries - Portugal, Norway,
> ...


so he's on BBC then?

How did you find out he has been banned in those countries?


----------



## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

It's alright folks, he's not on BBC, just a random digital channel (I saw the advert the other day, couldn't tell you which channel it was though!)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah H said:


> It's alright folks, he's not on BBC, just a random digital channel (I saw the advert the other day, couldn't tell you which channel it was though!)


Nor me. I saw his ugly mug and turned it over:w00t:


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## Old Shep (Oct 17, 2010)

The good thing is he's been dropped by the mainstream channels.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sarah H said:


> It's alright, folks, he's not on BBC - just a random digital channel.
> (I saw the advert the other day, couldn't tell you which channel it was, though!)


Thanks, Sarah - :thumbsup:
i edited my comment, i made the assumption he was on BBC, my mistake.
.
.


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## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

Sarah H said:


> It's alright folks, he's not on BBC, just a random digital channel (I saw the advert the other day, couldn't tell you which channel it was though!)


Thats what I thought might be the case?
Cant see how he could be 'banned' from TV in other countries, as these digital channels etc, it would be tricky to ban a Tv show, i would have thought, as they are like the internet and globalised?
So what does "banned from TV" actually mean?


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CANOLOGY said:


> ...
> *Can't see how he could be 'banned' from TV in other countries*, ...


Well, i'm sorry U can't see *how* - but the fact is, he *was* & *is*. :blink:
Feel free to do a Google search - I'm sure U know how?...

Campaign to ban Cesar Millan?s The Dog Whisperer from Italian TV | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

The Rise and Fall of Cesar Millan, The Dog Whisperer

Titchmarsh skewers CM / DW in an interview in the UK:
Titchmarsh savages dog trainer who caused TV outcry with his unconventional techniques to 'rehabilitate' ill-disciplined dogs | Daily Mail Online

After his broadcasts were banned in Sweden, he was interviewed on national-TV there -
it's on UTube. I've POSTED all this previously on PF-uk; feel free to use the "Search" box. :yesnod:
.
.

February-2015:
Florida woman sues 'Dog Whisperer' Cesar Millan in pit bull attack - Naples Daily News



> Cesar Millan, star of TV's "The Dog Whisperer," is being sued by a woman who claims she was attacked
> by a vicious pit bull that had been prematurely released by Millan's dog training center.
> 
> *The woman*, a critical-care nurse in Florida, *claims she suffered "disfiguring open wounds, deep muscle
> ...


*: that may be true - but his *employees* clearly did.

That, BTW, is how he got his start: charging ppl & non-profit rescues to board problematic dogs by the day,
which of course became weeks & then months.
He turned an empty warehouse in a scruffy ex-industrial neighborhood into a boarding kennel with macadam pens
outside for group or solo exercise, & individual dog-runs to confine dogs for safety.
He charged $10 a day, & was holding 60 dogs who had been basically warehoused & exercised -
NOT given any behavioral rehab / B-mod, just fed & housed & cared for - & he gave the owners & rescues
*30-days notice over the Thanksgiving holiday to remove their dogs from his premises* as he was going
to vacate, & go find acreage to build on. :huh: Thanks a lot, Cesar. $600 a day wasn't enuf?...
U couldn't give them 60-days to find alternate housing for dangerous dogs? - Apparently not.

"Running out of money to pay boarding" was reason-enuf to evict a dangerous dog, under euthanasia orders,
& apparently that decision resulted in the permanent maiming of a nurse, who was an innocent passerby.
He - or his employee, director Jen - needed that kennel empty for the next *paying* client's dog. :thumbdown:
.
.


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## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> Well, i'm sorry U can't see *how* - but the fact is, he *was* & *is*. :blink:
> Feel free to do a Google search - I'm sure U know how?...
> 
> Campaign to ban Cesar Millan?s The Dog Whisperer from Italian TV | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors
> ...


Actually, what I said in my two posts in reply to yourself was "how did you find out he was banned on t v in other countries," and "what does banned on tv actually mean"

As well as my other comment you quoted

None of your links are about him being banned on tv. I watched the Alan titchmarsh interview when it was on telly, and I haven't find anything on Google yet, hence my questions


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CANOLOGY said:


> ... "how did you find out he was banned on TV in other countries"...


It was announced in multiple news sources - AP wire in the USA, Daily Flail in UK, cable news networks, etc.


CANOLOGY said:


> ..."what does banned on tv actually mean"[?]


That the national broadcast system of a particular country will not allow his show to be broadcast.
Pretty simple.


CANOLOGY said:


> ...
> I haven't find anything on Google yet, hence my questions.


And as i already said, i reiterate:


leashedForLife said:


> ...
> *I've POSTED all this previously on PF-uk; feel free to use the "Search" box.* :yesnod:
> 
> ...


 - i posted the NEWS ARTICLES, the Swedish TV interview when he was allowed to run his live demos
on a stage, but NOT broadcast into ppl's homes via TV, etc, on PF-uk.

Use the search box. I'm not doing it for U. 
.
.


----------



## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> It was announced in multiple news sources - AP wire in the USA, Daily Flail in UK, cable news networks, etc.
> 
> That the national broadcast system of a particular country will not allow his show to be broadcast.
> Pretty simple.
> ...


What search term do I need to put into PF to find this Swedish info?

I have googled and haven't found any news stories from sources like thr ones you just mentioned, can you post up thr links please


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## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

PS - the search box won't work on a smartphone,
So I'm sure you could help me now and post up a link to your PF post about Cesar Milan being banned on t v. I'm Interested, so would be grateful


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

CANOLOGY said:


> PS - the search box won't work on a smartphone,
> ...


that's unfortunate.
I posted ALL OF THEM when & as they occurred - which IIRC was either 2009 or 2010.
That's a lot of water under the bridge - & no, i won't look them up. Good luck.
.
.


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## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> that's unfortunate.
> I posted ALL OF THEM when & as they occurred - which IIRC was either 2009 or 2010.
> That's a lot of water under the bridge - & no, i won't look them up. Good luck.
> .
> ...


----------



## Guest (Mar 3, 2015)

Tails and Trails said:


> That's a shame you can't help, as PF Won't allow a search screen pop up on smartphones, and as can't find anything on Google
> 
> This means I can't tell anyone he has been banned on tv, as there is no evidence I can provide, so it won't seem true
> 
> What's IIRC?


Why does it matter so much to you anyway?
Not like a ban stopped you....


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## CANOLOGY (Feb 10, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Why does it matter so much to you anyway?
> Not like a ban stopped you....


I don't like Cesar Milan so it's good to have all this information to hand when you talk to people about him
Obviously its important I stick to facts I can verify, for if people think I can't prove stuff I will undermine my own efforts to put people off him
I was hoping that other lady could help me


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Ummm...you know it's against forum rules to have two accounts right?


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## Misi (Jul 13, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Ummm...you know it's against forum rules to have two accounts right?


That's why I'm confused!


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## El Cid (Apr 19, 2014)

Misi said:


> That's why I'm confused!


The fierce and insulting nature of this debate is harmful to the dog owners, the branch and eventually to the dog.

http://www.dogresearch.nl/engels/ImpactCM.pdf


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

El Cid said:


> The fierce and insulting nature of this debate is harmful to the dog owners, the branch and eventually to the dog.
> 
> http://www.dogresearch.nl/engels/ImpactCM.pdf


Umm sorry


----------



## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

El Cid said:


> The fierce and insulting nature of this debate is harmful to the dog owners, the branch and eventually to the dog.
> 
> http://www.dogresearch.nl/engels/ImpactCM.pdf


I have no idea how debating is harmful to dog owners, I have no idea who or what the branch is and the only thing harmful to dogs is daft owners who follow what they see on a TV programme without actually watching what the dog is trying desperately to tell them.

El Cid can you please please tell us whether you have read any of the links or watched any of the videos posted? If you have what are* your* opinions of those dogs?


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

El Cid said:


> The fierce and insulting nature of this debate is harmful to the dog owners, the branch and eventually to the dog.
> 
> http://www.dogresearch.nl/engels/ImpactCM.pdf


I read the document in your link and I have to say I was rather underwhelmed by its professionalism - The leading questions and the obvious bias of the writer and the way it dismisses concerns and introduces random red herrings and places importance to them although as far as I can tell they are nothing to do with the "research". I would also question the random nature of the "research" - are they truly a cross section of the dog owning public or are they biased in some way? how were they approached? was it through magazines? facebook? forums? and which? It leaves me wanting more answers than it gives.

I could produce research to prove that most people believe the sun revolves round the earth - I'd just have to ask the right people. Ask people who watch the dog whisperer and they will generally think what he does is right. Ask people who have been appalled at his methods and boycott his programmes and you will get the opposite result.

And how you can extrapolate people agreeing with "is exercise important?" to people saying Mr Milan's teaching is right is akin to equating "children should learn to read and write" to "all children should be sent to boarding school". People agreeing with some of the things he advocates does not mean they necessarily agree with everything especially as the things most people agree with are the ones that most reward based trainers would also advocate.

All I took from that research was how poorly it seemed to have been conducted and that it would have produced fail grade in most high schools if presented as a project.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Pets At Home withdrew all his books and merchandise from sale a year or so ago.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

El Cid said:


> *The fierce and insulting nature of this debate is harmful to the dog owners, the branch and eventually to the dog.*
> 
> http://www.dogresearch.nl/engels/ImpactCM.pdf


The bolded is a quote from the article linked, p.10, under 4.3 Conclusions.

So... I'm still left with the same question I asked on the other thread, wondering where this fixation on CM, being a pack leader, dominance, leadership, etc., comes from. You keep bringing up the same topic, you keep getting the same answers, the same discussion, the same links are provided.

1) Do you read the posts in the threads you start?
2) Do you read the links provided?
3) What piece is missing for you that you keep starting the same discussion?

Or is it just that you like CM, you like his methods and it makes you wary/uncomfortable that so many don't so you're trying to alleviate your unease by trying to convince others that he isn't all that bad?

If you like him, you like him. 
If your dog is everything you ever wanted and more, and your relationship is as good as you ever want it to be, what does it matter what others think?


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

El Cid said:


> The fierce and insulting nature of this debate is harmful to the dog owners, the branch and eventually to the dog.
> 
> http://www.dogresearch.nl/engels/ImpactCM.pdf


From my experience whenever there is a debate about CM, the most fierce and insulting people are his advocates. Happened to me a couple of times recently on a breed group and many times before. I can't help but draw a conclusion that those who like his aggressive and overbearing techniques are much the same way inclined themselves.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

Snoringbear said:


> From my experience whenever there is a debate about CM, the most fierce and insulting people are his advocates. Happened to me a couple of times recently on a breed group and many times before. I can't help but draw a conclusion that those who like his aggressive and overbearing techniques are much the same way inclined themselves.


To be fair, the positive only group can be pretty stubbornly rude too. (Not even getting in to the fact that there is no such thing as positive only, or even reinforcement only training.)

From personal experience, I'm always taken aback when a trainer or dog owners who eschews positive punishment then turns and attacks me for my views on parenting (that are also non-punitive). But hey, we're all evolving at different rates 

But yes, one's behavior towards animals is generally a good indicator of one's behavior towards people.

I do agree that there is no reason for the discussion to become contentious, and I don't think it has in this case. El Cid has two threads going right now, and to my eyes, both have had mostly reasoned, polite responses.

In the end though, I don't think any adamant CM supporter is going to be swayed by a bunch of forum posts. I don't post for those people. I post to let those who have chosen to learn beyond CM that they are not alone, to support those people.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Snoringbear said:


> From my experience whenever there is a debate about CM, the most fierce and insulting people are his advocates. Happened to me a couple of times recently on a breed group and many times before. I can't help but draw a conclusion that those who like his aggressive and overbearing techniques are much the same way inclined themselves.


Some of the Dog Abuser's followers who have joined a PF debate has screamed via red reps that we are all telling lies about Cesar:skep: They will not be swayed, they will not watch the links or listen to reason. Look how long it's taken to swing dear Janice to the right side of the fence:cornut:


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

I guess it's just my experience. I've always personally found the anti CMs to have a much calmer and evidence based approach. I think this thread has been more like that from what I've read if it. Most of the CN advocates just throw out the same old tired memes - he's got a TV show, he rehabilitates last chance dogs, soft methods won't on the dogs he works with etc. what I can't understand is why people aren't open to more modern and progressive techniques which would ultimately be more beneficial to their dogs and themselves. I can't think of anything else where people are so adamant to stick in the dark ages. Most people want the latest thing. You're going to get s smartphone over some ancient mobile for example. The last tv I bought was a nice modern flatscreen, I didn't consider getting an old black and white CRT like the one I grew up watching in the 70s.


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

ouesi said:


> In the end though, I don't think any adamant CM supporter is going to be swayed by a bunch of forum posts. I don't post for those people. I post to let those who have chosen to learn beyond CM that they are not alone, to support those people.


If I hadn't happened on this forum I would probably still be singing his praises. Seeing evidence of what I consider hypocrisy with my own eyes has opened them and I am very grateful for that. I also found it hard to believe that any inexperienced owner would do something as dangerous as attempting to alpha roll their dog just because some bloke on tv did it (although I admit to trying out some of his less extreme methods). But there's been pretty strong anecdotal evidence on here that people do, so.......


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Snoringbear said:


> I guess it's just my experience. I've always personally found the anti CMs to have a much calmer and evidence based approach. I think this thread has been more like that from what I've read if it. Most of the CN advocates just throw out the same old tired memes - he's got a TV show, he rehabilitates last chance dogs, soft methods won't on the dogs he works with etc. what I can't understand is why people aren't open to more modern and progressive techniques which would ultimately be more beneficial to their dogs and themselves. I can't think of anything else where people are so adamant to stick in the dark ages. Most people want the latest thing. You're going to get s smartphone over some ancient mobile for example. The last tv I bought was a nice modern flatscreen, I didn't consider getting an old black and white CRT like the one I grew up watching in the 70s.


I think it probably goes back to the fact that his shows are high profile and easily accessible, whereas more forward thinking methods are less showbiz?
And I'm not gonna lie, there are some pretty ineffectual self styled trainer & behaviour wannabes out there that don't present a great image.
I took my dog to a 6 week course on agility training at a reputable local centre a couple of summers ago. We had fun, met lots of nice doggy folk but the only practical bit of feedback I received during the whole course was to modulate the tone of my voice because I was hyping her up too much. And that was on the very last session. The rest of the time we were basically just taking turns at laughing at each other's attempts to coax the dogs round. It's probably unfair to tar the whole outfit with the same brush but it isn't somewhere I would go back to if I needed help with my dog's behaviour.
I've also heard loads of times about people with unruly dogs getting chucked out of puppy training classes. If they can't go there to get the dog under control then where the heck?
That doesn't mean you should chuck the baby out with the bathwater but I can see where people get confused or discouraged.


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## Sarahliz100 (Jan 5, 2014)

Delilahdog said:


> If I hadn't happened on this forum I would probably still be singing his praises. Seeing evidence of what I consider hypocrisy with my own eyes has opened them and I am very grateful for that. I also found it hard to believe that any inexperienced owner would do something as dangerous as attempting to alpha roll their dog just because some bloke on tv did it (although I admit to trying out some of his less extreme methods). But there's been pretty strong anecdotal evidence on here that people do, so.......


When my very anxious dog started develop resource guarding issues as a 4 month pup our breeders suggestion for dealing with it was to alpha roll him. I had no intention of doing so and consulted a behaviourist instead, but I'm sure many people would have done as an "expert" was advising them.......


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

The problem is, that some anti-CM forum posts come across as pompous and aggressive and are going to get people's backs up.

I posted on another thread a while ago, that I've met CM and I liked him. Okay, it was a relatively brief encounter, but we had quite a long chat and I consider myself a pretty good judge of character, so...

I do not agree with some of CM's methods and am not swayed by the fact he is 'on the telly' (after all, Nigel Farage is on the telly quite a lot lately and I certainly do not support him!). And I much prefer a positive reinforcement approach to training.

But sometimes, the vociferous nature of the anti-CM posts simply makes me close the browser, because I object to people 'shouting' to get their message across.

I have tried a couple of behaviourists for Sophie (as she does have a few anxiety problems) and if I thought it would do any good, I would search again for a new behaviourist to help her.

But if they started having a go at CM and his methods without me mentioning him, I would drop that behaviourist like a bag of hot coals.
I want help for my dog, not a diatribe about another trainer and their methods.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Snoringbear said:


> I guess it's just my experience. I've always personally found the anti CMs to have a much calmer and evidence based approach. I think this thread has been more like that from what I've read if it. Most of the CN advocates just throw out the same old tired memes - he's got a TV show, he rehabilitates last chance dogs, soft methods won't on the dogs he works with etc. *what I can't understand is why people aren't open to more modern and progressive techniques which would ultimately be more beneficial to their dogs and themselves.* I can't think of anything else where people are so adamant to stick in the dark ages. Most people want the latest thing. You're going to get s smartphone over some ancient mobile for example. The last tv I bought was a nice modern flatscreen, I didn't consider getting an old black and white CRT like the one I grew up watching in the 70s.


I really do think it is because at the end of the day on the surface for the majority of people CM does "appear" to fix the issues.
It's the same reason that some people will happily pop on a shock collar to "fix" recall issues (or whatever "issue") rather than explore the kinder methods of using a long line and positive reinforcement..

The collar is easier, quicker and takes less effort :nonod:
Most people look at a quiet dog as a dog that is behaving, so to then tell them that actually their dog may be quiet but he/she is shut down rather than being a "good dog"...well, they get a bit defensive.

I see the same "clinging" onto the "old ways" when you get people debating child care.
Some are in the "I got hit as a child and it did me no harm" camp and no matter what others say, or how many articles you post to counter that they will not listen because "it did them no harm"

Just like "My friend/mum/whoever used that method and they had perfect dogs..

Just my humble opinion of course


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> I really do think it is because at the end of the day on the surface for the majority of people CM does "appear" to fix the issues.
> It's the same reason that some people will happily pop on a shock collar to "fix" recall issues (or whatever "issue") rather than explore the kinder methods of using a long line and positive reinforcement..
> 
> The collar is easier, quicker and takes less effort :nonod:
> ...


I was going to mention parenting/child care too, but didn't want to a) derail, and b) get in to yet another depressing parenting discussion. But absolutely, the other area where we seem to be still in the dark ages despite overwhelming research pointing to the negative impact of corporal punishment on children, we still insist on it being okay.

And yup, just as some people want children who should be seen and not heard, some people want the exact same thing from their dogs. They want a dog who does nothing - literally. They want that dog who lies quietly in the corner, unobtrusive, unnoticed, not a bother in any way.

Lack of behavior =/= well behaved.

It doesn't take much to create a dog who stops all behavior, most dogs are beatable enough that any neanderthal can accomplish this. But to help a dog (or child) develop *self* control, control that comes from within, instead of forced from without, that takes a bit more thought and finesse.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Or even better the people who cry loudly about positive training for dogs yet say children still need to be hit/insert word of your choice that makes it sound better. Instead of you know teaching the child or animal the rules just make it all out to be their fault and punish the behaviour when you never told them how you wanted them to behave.

There was a post on a fb training page about someone saying how their poor rescue dog had been so badly beaten and abused in their former home. The owner proceeded to alpha roll and beat the dog round the head with the lead because a trainer told them it would fix dog reactivity. They didn't see that this was exactly the same thing...


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

silvi said:


> The problem is, that some anti-CM forum posts come across as pompous and aggressive and are going to get people's backs up.


When someone truly loves their dog, and they hear that what they have been doing is probably detrimental to their dog and their relationship with that dog, it's going to be hurtful no matter how it is presented. It is a very natural human reaction to respond to that hurt by blaming the messenger.

Obviously, one would hope that the message is presented compassionately and with understanding, but even the most compassionate approach is still going to present owners with hard to hear truths.

Looking back on past dogs, I internally cringe at some of the stupid mistakes I have made, and continue to make. But mistakes are how we learn - if we face up to them and learn from them. And thankfully, dogs are far more forgiving than most humans


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

Do you think it also boils down to the fact that folk have dogs for a number of different reasons.
Some people want a fashion/lifestyle statement
Some want a status symbol
Some want a working partner
And some just want a buddy
It isn't really rocket science to work out which type of owner is most likely to try building a relationship right from the word go is it? I mean just because you start off buying your dog because he looks good in the back of the car doesn't mean you won't be a good owner but you are starting out with a different intention to friendship maybe?


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

I am always amazed by watching these programmes how little people walk their dogs - this is probably one of the main reasons people have problems.

Even if I am ill, I still walk the dogs even if it is a quicker one than normal


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> I guess it's just my experience [that CM/DW supporters tend to be aggressive & insulting, while] I've always personally
> found the anti CMs to have a much calmer & evidence-based approach. I think this thread has been more like that,
> from what I've read if it.
> 
> ...


re the gratuitous insults, name-calling, etc -
Yes, i've seen the same thing many times, with CM-fans 'shouting' a lot while opponents of aversive tools post links
to articles, videos, research, etc - which are often ignored.

It's not "just" various TV-hosts' methods & tools, either - they are obvious, visible, & accessible to many ppl,
but they're the tip of a massive iceberg - local trainers, pet-supply retailers who SELL aversive tools & promote
their continued use, ordinary pet-owners who have tossed out reward-based methods & taken up Alpha-rolls,
stringing up the dog, etc, As-Seen-&-Shown-On-TV, even vets [without behavior certification!] recommending
nearby trainers who use shock-collars, or vets who use aversive or coercive methods *on client's pets*, in their
practices - during exams or treatment, while restraining the pet, etc.

There are better ways; we know that, & have known it for a long time. It's not new, nor is it controversial.

And it isn't "just" CM / DW - tho he might be flattered to think so. 
I'm on record as opposing *anyone* who uses aversives - infinite-slip AKA choke-collars, prongs, shock,
water balloons, what have U; there's nothing to the allegation that _"we just pick on him because he's successful"_ -
MONEY isn't the sole criterion for success, or at least shouldn't be, & outcome should be a paramount concern.

One advantage trainers have that pet-owners do not is inside information from fellow-trainers - such as many
posts by So-Cal trainers who were members of the USA-apdt, & whose clients' dogs came to them for B-Mod
*after they'd been "fixed" by CM / DW*. Every one of them was adamant that they'd much preferred to have
worked with these dogs PRIOR to their bootcamp or brainwashing sessions with Mr Millan.
Working with the original presenting problem would have been much, much easier than trying to ameliorate
the damage done by harsh handling, flooding, etc, which only exacerbated the issue, & spawned new problems.

This wasn't 1 or 2 trainers - this was every USA-apdt trainer in the metropolitan-LA area that had clients who
were "rebound cases" of Mr Millan's. Not one said, _"Oh, we worked on another issue entirely - the first thing
was all fixed!..."_ - nor did anyone say, _'The client just came to us for some dog-sport instruction..."_ - agility, 
or flyball, or HTM / Freestyle, or anything fun & enriching.
Rather, they unanimously said it was the original issue, PLUS varied complications caused by inapropos
so-called behavior modification or 'dog psychology' or re-training by Mr Millan [or his hired hands].

Pet-owners don't get to see those posts - I wish they did, it would give them a lot of insight on the disastrous
effects of flooding, force, & punitive tools. :nonod:


Snoringbear said:


> ...
> *What I can't understand is why people aren't open to more modern & progressive techniques, which would
> ultimately be more beneficial to their dogs & themselves. I can't think of anything else where people are so
> adamant to stick in the dark ages.* Most people want the latest thing.
> ...


I can't explain it, either - any more than i can explain why modern ppl would think a so-called 'Paleo diet'
is healthier than a good varied diet that includes whole foods, whole grains, etc. :frown2: God knows,
the ppl who ate it during the Paleolithic era didn't have long lives; dying between 20 & 30-YO was common,
very very few women reached menopause until settled agriculture began, & most men died young as a result
of violent encounters - or, like everybody else, of starvation, hypothermia, thirst while traveling, & other
random events.

Everybody agrees that highly-processed 'foods' are more packaging than contents, & the contents are cr*p;
eat the box or bag, it's probly more nutritious.  But U don't have to eschew all grains to eat healthily, & gobs
of meat isn't a good option for the planet, nor the individual.
Hunter-gatherers eat far, far more vegetable matter than they do meat - that's just as true now, as then.
But it's not as *romantic* as the myth - "Nature red in tooth & claw", dauntless men
& doughty women, the triumph of stone tools over powerful prey, yadda-yadda.

I think that's where the appeal of old-fashioned aversive tools comes from: *romance.*
The myth of brave men vanquishing vicious dogs, forging a way into Alaska, wresting gold from mountain streams,
forcing their will on rebellious beasts & making them not merely compliant but working a sea-change so that
their adversaries become fawning devotees... U *have* noticed, have U not, that most CM-fans are male,
& many of the trainers who advertise themselves as 'Whisperers' are male?... It's not an absolute, but clearly
there's a gender split - most trainers who work with pet-dogs are FEMALE, & many of them are reward-based;
most military, police, tactical-K9, bite-sports, & personal-protection or security trainers are male, & many
are CM-supporters who mimic his taglines, repeat his various mantras, & spread his dogma. :huh:

I think it's comforting to men to return to a simpler era, when men were clearly & indisputably in charge,
women were perforce subservient - as they had no personal wealth & no political power - & dogs did whatever
the H*** U told them to do, by G**, or they'd rue the day. :nono: It's simple, it's black & white, & it's... wrong.

my_personal hypothesis:
It's the Jack London thing - i think. It's the only meme i can think of that packages the appeal of myth,
the romance of personal power, the enduring idea of immutable instinct, & so on. I could be wrong, but it's the only
package concept that contains all the right gewgaws. :thumbup1: What do y'all think?... Possible, or silly?
.
.


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## Snowdog (Mar 3, 2015)

Snoringbear said:


> From my experience whenever there is a debate about CM, the most fierce and insulting people are his advocates. Happened to me a couple of times recently on a breed group and many times before. I can't help but draw a conclusion that those who like his aggressive and overbearing techniques are much the same way inclined themselves.


Ive seen and heard positive reinforcement training people be quite negative reinforcement and positive punishment toward dog owners plenty times real life and dog training sites.
Whereas Cesar Milan is negative reinforcement and positive punishment to dogs and positive reinforcement to people

So it works both ways really


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

kirksandallchins said:


> I am always amazed by watching these programmes how little people walk their dogs - this is probably one of the main reasons people have problems.
> 
> Even if I am ill, I still walk the dogs even if it is a quicker one than normal


Walking your dog is part of dog ownership, sure. However, not all problems can be solved with a few good walks. 
There is also the argument to be made that you can worsen things if you are relying on exhaustion for your dog to behave. The more you exercise the dog, the fitter the dog gets, and the more exercise he needs to get tired enough to behave.

"Walk the dog" doesn't solve the complicated cases. It solves the basic PITA bored dog cases, but it doesn't do jack squat for more serious behavior issues, or even minor training issues like lack of recall.

I know people are sick of me using Lunar as an example, but again, he makes a good one. When we got him, he was not only a good 40 pounds underweight, he also had a heart worm infestation and some unspecified infection in his eyes. He also had a leg deformed from having been shot, shattered, and then healed on its own. Initially he was in no shape to go for a 1 minute walk, let alone anything longer. As he healed and we got rid of the heart worms, he still was never where he could tolerate longer walks because of his leg.

Now what? I always wonder what CM would have done with a dog like Lunar. Actually, I don't wonder... 
Let's just say that it's no surprise to me that you never see dogs like Lunar on his shows


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Great post LFL, but I'm guilty of following the paleo diet


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## karmacookie (Nov 9, 2014)

I was struggling to find a behaviourist or trainer locally so I phoned the local rescue who gave me details of one.

She recommended 'scruffing' my dog and getting an electric collar 

I have a friend who was a sheepdog trainer, she suggested I put a choke chain on him :frown2:

So there are still plently of 'proffessionals' recommending these methods :confused5:


BTW, this thread has been really useful to me. I hadn't really saw many of CM's programmes, we don't have Sky etc so I wasn't sure what all the fuss was about. I know now!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snoringbear said:


> Great post LFL, but I'm guilty of following the paleo diet.


"guilty"? - why guilty? Heck, i'm *guilty* of eating a by-&-large lacto-ovo vegetarian diet, but i eat coldwater
FISH, too - no shellfish [shrimp kill 10 to 15 pounds of other species, per pound of wild shrimp caught - & farmed
shrimp are frequently incredibly inhumane, filthy, polluting, full of antibiotics, etc], no poultry, no game, no
beef, no pork, ______ fill in the blank with whatever nonhuman / non-fish species _____ .

I have ppl tell me all the time, _'U aren't really vegetarian.'_  OK - what do U wanna call it?

I catch flak for using veg-tanned harness leather leashes, & sometimes collars. Hey, if other ppl eat a 1-ton
animal, what justifies throwing away the wrapper?... :001_huh: I DON'T use chemically-tanned leather, especially
chrome-tanned, as the pollution is horrific.

I get hassled because my shoes aren't hydrocarbon composites - synthetics. I LIKE wood soles on sandals,
& stack-leather heels on my pumps. They're not petroleum products, & they're sustainable.

Humans are not simple, & choices aren't black vs white - there's a rainbow of choices that fall between white light
& black pigment.

That U eat Paleo doesn't detract from my suspicion that the Jack London myth underlies the popular appeal
& word-of-mouth transmission of CM's meme: _'Humans are in charge, & dogs are to obey.'_ Boiled down, that's the
essence of his message. :Shrug:

Anyone else think there's a possible / probable connection?...
.
.


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Just a turn of phrase  most people who criticise it don't understand it.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> the Jack London myth underlies the popular appeal
> & word-of-mouth transmission of CM's meme: _'Humans are in charge, & dogs are to obey.'_ Boiled down, that's the
> essence of his message. :Shrug:
> 
> ...


Possible...

But I think the appeal of CM/DW/Dominance/being In Charge is much more complex.

Sure, there are some people who just like having something/someone to abuse, to intimidate, to feel powerful over. But I think these are the extremes of something that's probably more on a continuum.

Some owners are simply ignorant. They just don't know any better and the corrections seem to work, so they become believers.

Others are genuinely afraid. Afraid that if they don't put the "fear of god" in to their dog, they will end up with a Cujo that will be seized and PTS, or attack their children, or whatever.

Some I think just don't care, aren't motivated enough to change. They know there's probably a better way, but their way works good enough, so there is insufficient motivation to learn something new.

The last one would be me in the food debates. Kibble is just too darned convenient, so kibble it is other than when I get goodies from friends who hunt or have extras from a good raw haul. If I had dogs with serious digestive or health issues, I imagine I would be more motivated to try harder to feed a "perfect" diet, but since I don't, there ya go. 
Now, for the record, if someone were hailing something like Beneful as the be all and end all of dog food, I'll be calling bullshit on that as loud as anyone


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I know people are sick of me using Lunar as an example, but again, he makes a good one. When we got him, he was not only a good 40 pounds underweight, he also had a heart worm infestation and some unspecified infection in his eyes. He also had a leg deformed from having been shot, shattered, and then healed on its own. Initially he was in no shape to go for a 1 minute walk, let alone anything longer. As he healed and we got rid of the heart worms, he still was never where he could tolerate longer walks because of his leg.
> 
> Now what? I always wonder what CM would have done with a dog like Lunar. Actually, I don't wonder...
> Let's just say that it's no surprise to me that you never see dogs like Lunar on his shows


Well actually you do....
As I said, I'm _not_ advocating CM's techniques, but when we were in Spain he was on TV a lot and I have probably seen most of his shows.
I watched several programs where he came in to help owners of dogs with all sorts of health problems, from weakness left over from distemper, to dogs with shattered legs, or missing legs, plus dogs with other anatomical issues.

When I met him, he was at our vets with a local trainer who had a galgo with broken legs (deliberately broken by hunters). This was not part of a TV show - he was just there helping to find out the best course of treatment for the poor dog and to find out how best to help him to walk again.

The trainer and our vet said that this happened whenever CM visited. 
Galgos treated so cruelly are usually PTS by vets (or at least PTS is recommended to the owners), but the likes of CM and the many dog rescues in Spain were slowly putting a stop to this, whilst bringing this cruelty to the attention of the public.

As I said, I'm not a follower of most of his training recommendations, but there is definitely a lot of good in the man.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

silvi said:


> Well actually you do....
> As I said, I'm _not_ advocating CM's techniques, but when we were in Spain he was on TV a lot and I have probably seen most of his shows.
> I watched several programs where he came in to help owners of dogs with all sorts of health problems, from weakness left over from distemper, to dogs with shattered legs, or missing legs, plus dogs with other anatomical issues.
> 
> ...


I meant dogs like Lunar who are not easily intimidated (or not intimidated at all), who have no compunctions about using teeth to prove a point, who know they are bigger and stronger, who aren't going to back down when pushed, and who can't be exercised to exhaustion before picking a fight with them


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> I meant dogs like Lunar who are not easily intimidated (or not intimidated at all), who have no compunctions about using teeth to prove a point, who know they are bigger and stronger, who aren't going to back down when pushed, and who can't be exercised to exhaustion before picking a fight with them


Ah okay.
I thought you meant the health issues 

Well.....that post needed posting anyway......


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

silvi said:


> Ah okay.
> I thought you meant the health issues
> 
> Well.....that post needed posting anyway......


Silvi, I don't mean to assume, but I'm guessing you speak spanish since you were in Spain?

This is an interesting article about how CM's show though it proclaimed to help rescue dogs finds homes, actually just turned dogs in to a game show prize that eventually got returned anyway.

https://malagaperruna.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/un-problema-a-la-espanola/


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I meant dogs like Lunar who are not easily intimidated (or not intimidated at all), who have no compunctions about using teeth to prove a point, who know they are bigger and stronger, who aren't going to back down when pushed, and who can't be exercised to exhaustion before picking a fight with them


If anyone tried to intimidate Ferdie or force him into anything he is not comfortable with, they will get bitten. That is not because he is an aggressive dog, he is far from it, but he has never been used to those sort of tactics and prefers to co-operate for a reward, be it a biscuit or a cuddle.

Anyway, they know perfectly well who is in charge in this house and so do I - they are:thumbup1:


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

Use aggression and you will get aggression in return. Meet a stressed reactive dog with aggression and you will get a doubly stressed doubly aggressing dog in return. Alfa roll a confused dog ...and you will a confused dog lying on their side.

I always hope someone calls a good behaviourist to pick up the pieces before it's too late (invariably it's after the first bite on a family member and then it's usually the rescue centre who calls the behaviourist in because that is where the dog has ended up).

Maybe he *is *a nice chap. I don't know. To be honest I don't care as I'm not attacking him, I'm attacking his methods. I would be happy to explain my reasoning to him. Anytime.

J


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> Use aggression and you will get aggression in return. Meet a stressed reactive dog with aggression and you will get a doubly stressed doubly aggressing dog in return. Alfa roll a confused dog ...and you will a confused dog lying on their side.
> 
> I always hope someone calls a good behaviourist to pick up the pieces before it's too late (invariably it's after the first bite on a family member and then it's usually the rescue centre who calls the behaviourist in because that is where the dog has ended up).
> 
> ...


But his methods are him. Anyone who can treat dogs as he does, is not a nice chap. He is a bully who needs to be humanely put to sleep like all those dogs he has failed.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> If anyone tried to intimidate Ferdie or force him into anything he is not comfortable with, they will get bitten. That is not because he is an aggressive dog, he is far from it, but he has never been used to those sort of tactics and prefers to co-operate for a reward, be it a biscuit or a cuddle.
> 
> Anyway, they know perfectly well who is in charge in this house and so do I - they are:thumbup1:


I would hope for my dogs' sakes that they would not bite if met with stupid or forceful handling. And honestly by the time Lunar had been with us for a year or so, he was much more tolerant.

Of course the difference is, my dogs don't bite because they have a long history of positive associations with humans, so they see upsetting encounters as the anomaly they are and don't feel the need to defend against them.

Which is the whole point. As Jamesgoeswalkies points out above, you are far more likely to end up with *more* issues using forceful and aggressive techniques.


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## silvi (Jul 31, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Silvi, I don't mean to assume, but I'm guessing you speak spanish since you were in Spain?
> 
> This is an interesting article about how CM's show though it proclaimed to help rescue dogs finds homes, actually just turned dogs in to a game show prize that eventually got returned anyway.
> 
> https://malagaperruna.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/un-problema-a-la-espanola/


I've just had a quick read through the article and the comments.

I actually remember the program and it was a total disaster. But as the writer says, it was the producers of Telecinco who were most to blame.

Telecinco are very much into reality style shows, particularly when they can bring in a celeb or two to up the ratings. I doubt very much that CM would have know this, but someone definitely should have warned him.

Like the writer says 'it is the Spanish'. and I too feel bad about saying it, as there are many animal lovers in Spain, but there is still very much a deeply-held concept among some Spaniards that animals are for work or amusement and are very much third-class or less when it comes to thinking about their actual needs.

But I did notice that the debate for and against CM continues into the comments on that blog post and it gets pretty heated too


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> But his methods are him. Anyone who can treat dogs as he does, is not a nice chap. He is a bully who needs to be humanely put to sleep like all those dogs he has failed.


Sorry, but this is the sort of post that makes these discussions lose credibility 

You can't go around advocating for the guy's death and expect to be taken seriously.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, but this is the sort of post that makes these discussions lose credibility
> 
> You can't go around advocating for the guy's death and expect to be taken seriously.


Yes I can. I am entitled to my opinion the same as everyone else and if that opinion displeases you, then I can do nothing about that. Get over it.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes I can. I am entitled to my opinion the same as everyone else and if that opinion displeases you, then I can do nothing about that. Get over it.


I never said anything about your opinion or whether you were entitled to it or not. I simply said that advocating for the death of CM is not conducive to any sort of productive discussion or being taken seriously.

But since you brought up opinions, it is mine that some of your behavior on this thread, telling another member that they must not be a true dog lover, and now saying that CM should be euthanized is completely inappropriate, even more so for a moderator.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I have to admit I don't like those sort of comments either and think they play right in to the hands of the people who advocate harsh/aggressive methods. I'm not sure how we can be taken seriously if we suggest someone we don't like or agree with should be put to death.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I always find it very hypocritical when someone is all for force free methods with animals yet wishes harm and even death on those people who use different methods. And sadly it's an attitude I see a lot and one that I feel does a lot to discredit the whole concept.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Silvi, ...I'm guessing you speak Spanish, since you were in Spain?
> 
> This is an interesting article about how CM's show [there], though it proclaimed to help rescue dogs finds homes,
> actually just turned dogs into game-show prizes [who] eventually got returned, anyway.
> ...


copy:


> _
> 
> Un problema "a la española"
> enero 3, 2012 por malagaperruna
> ...


Translate:


> _
> 
> A problem "for the Spanish"
> January 3, 2012 by barking malaga
> ...


That's a very sad formula. :nonod:
.
.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Personally I have no real opinion of the man in question as I do not know him.
When I discuss him I discuss the training "methods", I have no need to put the man down to show people that the methods he promotes/uses are archaic and at times barbaric.

To attack the mans personality just cheapens any argument that we may have as no one really knows him personally.


It's not his personality that needs to be judged


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## Snowdog (Mar 3, 2015)

ouesi said:


> Sorry, but this is the sort of post that makes these discussions lose credibility
> 
> You can't go around advocating for the guy's death and expect to be taken seriously.


I'm glad someone else wrote this
I thought it might be just me that found that post a bit disturbed


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

Snowdog said:


> I'm glad someone else wrote this
> I thought it might be just me that found that post a bit disturbed


I didn't find the post "disturbed".

As StormyThai just said, there simply isn't any need to put the man down (literally or figuratively) in order to make a convincing argument against his methods.

And to make the argument about the man instead of about the methods makes the argument lose credibility as all ad hominem arguments do.


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## Snowdog (Mar 3, 2015)

StormyThai said:


> Personally I have no real opinion of the man in question as I do not know him.
> When I discuss him I discuss the training "methods", I have no need to put the man down to show people that the methods he promotes/uses are archaic and at times barbaric.
> 
> To attack the mans personality just cheapens any argument that we may have as no one really knows him personally.
> ...


Someone earlier said its just pro Cesar Milan people on forums that make the rude or harsh posts
I agree with your post above, as I also said it's odd that some people are very strong on positive approach for dogs but negative approach for humans
The post wishing death upon Cesar Milan by a moderator on here has proved that anti Cesar Milan people are as capable as pro Cesar Milan people to be aggro
You are right, his personality is just a distraction
I dont like his training, but his personality is fine on Tv, where he shows good people skills actually
People skills count for a lot when you wish to teach or influence people, thats obvious
So maybe that is simply the reason people follow and support his beliefs?
Something as simple as that as opposed to any long theories about romance or masculinity or suchlike?
Maybe?just musing
So if other better dog trainers had his charm and people skills?
Just imagine


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Snowdog said:


> Maybe?just musing
> So if other better dog trainers had his charm and people skills?
> Just imagine


Never a truer word :yesnod:


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> But his methods are him. Anyone who can treat dogs as he does, is not a nice chap. He is a bully who needs to be humanely put to sleep like all those dogs he has failed.





newfiesmum said:


> Yes I can. I am entitled to my opinion the same as everyone else and if that opinion displeases you, then I can do nothing about that. Get over it.


Completely unacceptable. Especially from a Mod. You might be entitled to your opinion, but openly declaring a death wish on someone you've never met is barbaric and inhumane itself and there was no need to tell a long standing, much valued member of the forum to "Get over it" just because they disagree with you.

I wonder if you're not actually abusing your powers as Moderator?

I will be reporting one of the above quotes. I just haven't decided which one, yet.

Shame really, as until now, whilst I haven't contributed, I've found this thread enlightening.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

No worries, no need to report anything 

The "get over it" comment to me didn't bother me in the least. 

Besides, it will just get the thread closed and I'm hopelessly optimistic that El Cid will come back and at least explain something or answer some of the questions posed to him.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

silvi said:


> I've just had a quick read through the article and the comments. I actually remember the program
> & it was a total disaster. But as the writer says, it was the producers of TeleCinco who were most to blame.
> 
> TeleCinco are very much into reality-style shows, particularly when they can bring in a celeb or two to
> ...


Most of the comments are about the TV-program; some are specific to Mr Millan.



> _
> 
> [Jan 3] | mariame
> I feel horrible, I saw the work Cesar did ... I found it unbelievable, even called my friends to see him;
> ...


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## diefenbaker (Jan 15, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Besides, it will just get the thread closed and I'm hopelessly optimistic that El Cid will come back and at least explain something or answer some of the questions posed to him.


Don't hold your breath. I looked him up and he died in 1099. Someone else must be using his account.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

diefenbaker said:


> Don't hold your breath. I looked him up and he died in 1099. Someone else must be using his account.


Dammit diefenbaker, orange juice up the nose does NOT feel good!

:lol: :lol:


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## mylesaminute (Jan 11, 2015)

ouesi said:


> ...telling another member that they must not be a true dog lover, and now saying that CM should be euthanized is completely inappropriate, even more so for a moderator.


I don't know if this was said to anyone other than me, I stopped visiting the thread before now (accidentally clicked on it and got absorbed in by the drama, LOL) after my second post here, I don't care that newfiesmum has that opinion of me, I don't really care if anyone has that opinion of me. It's a redundant opinion to have regarding anybody. Just wanted to clear that up -- that type of .... doesn't offend me so no worries newfiesmum.

ouesi, I read your post here regarding me mentioning Myles, thanks, I understand. He's gone now so I have nothing else to add and if I keep using the forum I won't bring him up again, no point.

I've just read back through the whole thread (from page 7 onwards) and wish I didn't, not entirely sure what to think. I'm surprised at some of the posts tbh, just a lot of disrespect and nothing good coming of it. Those that are being open minded, accommodating and reasonable and presenting facts backing up whatever they're saying (with no name calling  ) are getting lost in the flurry of bull. I didn't realise the forum was so split down the middle in regards to this type of discussion.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

After losing a adult son to a killer I don't wish anyone death even Mr Milan..!!!!I'm sure his kids would miss him and his family.


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## caroleduffin (Mar 12, 2009)

Pets forum is great. Helpful and caring to old and new members. BUT beware, some of the members can be rude and offensive. I complained about this recently and got a very rude and offensive reply from a moderator! This particular moderator now issues death wishes to CM! Not good, not democratic. Pets forum is great, let,s keep it that way. Do not allow a few mutters to take over. Who chooses moderators by the way? Just curious. Carole


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## caroleduffin (Mar 12, 2009)

That should read nutcases!! Tho mutters ain't bad!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Snowdog said:


> You are right, [discussing? / debating?] his personality is just a distraction.
> 
> I dont like his training, but his personality is fine on TV, where he shows good people skills, actually.
> People skills count for a lot when you wish to teach or influence people, that's obvious.
> ...


there are many 'better' dog-trainers with ppl skills - but they're not necessarily photogenic,
nor are humane trainers' methods as thrillingly dramatic - for starters, U won't be watching with bated breath,
wondering just how soon [or if] the trainer will be bitten, & just how badly.

Vic Stilwell is a former model - her hook is largely her look, & a big chunk of the drama is dressing her
as some sort of cross between a dominatrix & a biker-chick - less anatomy revealed than the dominatrix,
more tasteful tailoring than the typical biker-chick, but still - black leather, a crop to slap her thigh, high-
heeled, knee-high boots, skin-tight leather pants, yadda-yadda.

Trish MacMillan is the 'girl next door' type, which hasn't been exciting on US-tv since Donna Reed retired.
 I like her & have always enjoyed her presentations, but TV-suits would be bored instantly.
Besides, *Trish* retired. :lol:

Betty White might be terrific, she's not a trainer but she has a massive fandom, & she'd learn the basics
quickly - but it would be hard for her to handle BIG dogs, at her age. There's a limit to how much B-Mod U can
do with a dog-aggro or dog-reactive or predatory or massive puller, on a wall-tether. Sooner or later,
U have to take them outside - or let them off indoors, using a long-lead if need be.
Betty would turn into a kite, if a powerful dog took off with her.

I could easily see her running a training-show for cats, tho. :thumbup: She'd be terrific.

I think Jean Donaldson or Trish King would both be excellent - or Denise Fenzi.
But i doubt they'll get the chance.

Any other nominees?...
.
.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

mylesaminute said:


> I don't know if this was said to anyone other than me, I stopped visiting the thread before now (accidentally clicked on it and got absorbed in by the drama, LOL) after my second post here, I don't care that newfiesmum has that opinion of me, I don't really care if anyone has that opinion of me. It's a redundant opinion to have regarding anybody. Just wanted to clear that up -- that type of .... doesn't offend me so no worries newfiesmum.
> 
> ouesi, I read your post here regarding me mentioning Myles, thanks, I understand. He's gone now so I have nothing else to add and if I keep using the forum I won't bring him up again, no point.
> 
> I've just read back through the whole thread (from page 7 onwards) and wish I didn't, not entirely sure what to think. I'm surprised at some of the posts tbh, just a lot of disrespect and nothing good coming of it. Those that are being open minded, accommodating and reasonable and presenting facts backing up whatever they're saying (with no name calling  ) are getting lost in the flurry of bull. I didn't realise the forum was so split down the middle in regards to this type of discussion.


'Tis the nature of forums I suppose 
We're all different human beings, and we're all going to respond differently to that which we feel passionately about. 
If you think this is bad, check out some food threads, or mention Pedigree Dogs Exposed 

For the most part though, as argumentative as some threads can be, others can also be a lot of fun. Just do a forum search for goats, or square great danes (really!)


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2015)

leashedForLife said:


> there are many 'better' dog-trainers with ppl skills - but they're not necessarily photogenic,
> nor are humane trainers' methods as thrillingly dramatic - for starters, U won't be watching with bated breath,
> wondering just how soon [or if] the trainer will be bitten, & just how badly.
> 
> ...


Emily Larlham, hands down. She knows her stuff inside out and backwards, she's excellent at explaining what she is doing and why, she's likable, and has the people skills too.

Personally I wouldn't mind watching Forrest Micke on TV either, he's also very knowledgeable, has a face for TV, young, energetic, personable, with a silly side that translates well on camera. He and Denise Fenzi work together a lot.

I find Suzanne Clothier a fabulous presenter, she's hilarious in a deadpan sort of way, fabulous storyteller, and another one who is beyond knowledgeable.

And there's also Nando Brown...
Susan Garrett (have you seen her "bad dog trainers" clip? OMG hilarious).

There are a ton of possibilities out there. Now we just need to find a rich celebrity with clout to back them


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Yes I can. I am entitled to my opinion the same as everyone else and if that opinion displeases you, then I can do nothing about that. Get over it.


Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

The rest of us can't get away with being rude so easily though.

Wishing death on someone you don't know and who has never hurt you personally is very wrong, in my opinion.

He has Sons and Family. Of course you don't agree with his methods, very few of us do, but would you really feel happy if he died?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

The people skills are what make Cesar SO dangerous. He's incredibly charismatic and can persuade owners that techniques they wouldn't even think of using are the only way. 

Wishing death on someone :frown2:.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Nicky10 said:


> The people skills are what make Cesar SO dangerous.
> He's incredibly charismatic & can persuade owners that techniques they wouldn't even think of using
> are the only way.
> 
> ...


I think a big chunk of that isn't charm, per se - it's his mantle of authority, & as we know from research,
ppl who appear to be authorities can convince others to do truly-awful things, just because the NON-authority
feels s/he "should" comply.

That's why it's important that actual authorities be ethical persons & have strong moral boundaries -
it's also why power corrupts.

A highly-prejudiced police commander or Circuit Court judge can incubate a predatory relationship between
police & nonwhite citizens, or make the concept of 'justice' a joke - we've recently seen that writ broadly,
in the recent history of Ferguson, MO, USA.
Were all the police officers in Ferguson bigots before they got on the force?... Unlikely. But the climate that
was engendered by the ticket-quotas & the nonstop push to get more fines to fund the town, & the contempt
from supervisors & Admin for black citizens, certainly cultivated any small seed of prejudice in every LEO.

Even NONcitizens were harassed for "income" for the town via fines & fees - the warrants on black ppl simply
driving thru town, as Ferguson lay directly in the path of anyone leaving the airport, actually *outnumbered
the warrants on resident black persons -* which is simply incredible, to me. Farming ppl's wallets to fund
local government functions, & sucking the money from that sector of society that's LEAST-able to contest
such wickedly unethical actions, is appalling.

But i'd bet after a couple of years in a Ferguson cop uniform, the shock had worn off, & it began to seem
perfectly normal. :nonod:
.
.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> I think a big chunk of that isn't charm, per se - it's his mantle of authority, & as we know from research,
> ppl who appear to be authorities can convince others to do truly-awful things, just because the NON-authority
> feels s/he "should" comply.
> 
> ...


Oh yes that experiment where people where convinced to give what they thought were lethal electric shocks :frown2:. Cesar's not above bullying, er being calm-assertive, when the situation calls for it but much of the time the people just seem to believe him. Although how much of that is clever editing I don't know


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

ouesi said:


> 'Tis the nature of forums I suppose
> We're all different human beings, and we're all going to respond differently to that which we feel passionately about.
> If you think this is bad, check out some food threads, or mention Pedigree Dogs Exposed
> 
> For the most part though, as argumentative as some threads can be, others can also be a lot of fun. Just do a forum search for goats, or square great danes (really!)


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## Jamesgoeswalkies (May 8, 2014)

mylesaminute said:


> I didn't realise the forum was so split down the middle in regards to this type of discussion.


The use of dominance as a tool to train has always been hotly debated over the years, so this forum will be no exception. Bring it on. Because without 'discussion' (passionate or otherwise) how else will people be encouraged to actually go and think for themselves about the methods they use.

And it is the *method* that we are disputing here.

Cesar is only a vehicle of dominance training. He didn't invent it. If we become sidetracked by him we loose what should be the focus of the argument. The method he advocates.

I met a family a few weeks back who had been using alfa rolls and punishment for 'dominant behaviour' on their terrier and the dog had just bitten. Been watching Cesar eh? No... blank face ... a behaviourist friend of ours told us to do this years back ......they hated doing it too but thought they had to as the dog was trying to be dominant. Their lightbulb moment was a pleasure to behold.

So to me you can't discuss this subject often enough. As I said, bring it on ......

J


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2015)

Jamesgoeswalkies said:


> The use of dominance as a tool to train has always been hotly debated over the years, so this forum will be no exception. Bring it on. Because without 'discussion' (passionate or otherwise) how else will people be encouraged to actually go and think for themselves about the methods they use.
> 
> And it is the *method* that we are disputing here.
> 
> ...


The Monks of New Skeete advocated for alpha rolls before anyone even knew who CM was. Of course, they also removed the method from subsequent printings of their book....


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

ouesi said:


> The Monks of New Skeete advocated for Alpha-rolls before anyone even knew who CM was.
> Of course, they also removed the method from subsequent printings of their book...


The Monks never really changed their stripes, tho - sadly.
There was a considerable gap between the 1st & 2nd editions of their 'training' book, something around 5 yrs -
so any damage was long-since done by the 1st version.

But in version 2, they still gave absolutely crystal-clear directions to command Ur dog to SIT,
& give the dog an uppercut to the jaw or chin as punishment for a previous sin. :yikes: Yup - :incazzato:
they really changed a whole lot, huh?... :shocked: I'm sure that would really improve handler-dog relations -
right down the toilet, & into the sewer.

The Monks' advice has only become less-obvious; it's more difficult to see the stark punitive aspect,
the sit-&-punch lesson above is an exception to the more-covert process.
But haircloth & flagellation are apparently not out of date, yet - for monks, or dogs. :thumbdown:
.
.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2015)

Here you go L4L, some Suzanne Clothier clips  She totally cracks me up 

[youtube_browser]RzG_MSWi9X0[/youtube_browser]


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## Delilahdog (Mar 2, 2014)

I think a lot of the literature and programmes discussed here is from the USA?
There has been a spate of programmes here in the UK which take a much more science based approach to understanding animals & pets such as 'The Secret Life of Cats' and another which showed, among other things, how wild African dogs were much more social and co-operative than previously thought. It seems there normal social pattern is much more fluid than the rigid hierarchy always assumed.
These programmes are interesting also because they promote the idea that, just because an animal perceives and responds to the world differently to humans, they are not necessarily less intelligent. In fact they display much more acute abilities to deal with certain situations. (classic example is how a dog can smell so much better and how he uses that ability).
What I really like is that these programmes are not primarily focused on the animals' relationships with humans or in how we can this knowledge to make them do what we want, which at the end of the day is what training and behaviour issues are all about. We object to the way our pet is responding in a human world and want to make it more acceptable to humans.
Hopefully if we can begin to understand these creatures for what they are, instead of what we want them to be, it will help us to form relationships which are more based on mutual needs and understanding instead of being human centric.


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