# BRITISH SHORTHAIR COLOUR PREDICTION



## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

Hey everyone , new here - I have been looking for information about colour prediction but have come across many different answers so hoping I could get some knowledge from everyone on here. 

My beautiful fawn torti Bsh is currently pregnant with my solid blue male bsh - what colours could she have, she’s due in a few days so I will soon find out lol but just so excited it would be nice to know what to expect! 

thanks in advance


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Depends if he carries chocolate or cinnamon. If neither then all blue. If he carries chocolate then 50/50 blue & lilac, if he carries cinnamon then 50/50 blue & fawn


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

Thank you! He doesn’t carry chocolate or cinnamon so all blue babies it is!


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

OrientalSlave said:


> Depends if he carries chocolate or cinnamon. If neither then all blue. If he carries chocolate then 50/50 blue & lilac, if he carries cinnamon then 50/50 blue & fawn


Would none of them be torti?


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Would none of them be torti?


Yes, you may end up with a rainbow litter!  Boys will be blue or cream, and girls will be blue or blue tortie.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Would none of them be torti?


Yes missed she is tortie. On zverage half the girls will be tortie & half the boys cream


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lenanowa said:


> Yes, you may end up with a rainbow litter!  Boys will be blue or cream, and girls will be blue or blue tortie.


Thats if he doesn't carry chocolate or cinnamon. The stats above hold if he does


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

OrientalSlave said:


> Thats if he doesn't carry chocolate or cinnamon. The stats above hold if he does


He does but say he did , what colours could be in the litter thanks for your help I think this thread will help a lot of people in the same position as me!

so fawn Tortie with blue = cream, blues & blue forties.

So how about...

blue Tortie female to blue Male ? = 
Cinnamon female to blue male That doesn't carry cinnamon or chocolate =


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

Torties**


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

We are due in a few days I will upload photos for everyone! So excited- this is mommas first litter


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

I have only bred my blue female to my cream male resulted in blue & blue Tortie kittens 

my blue Tortie female to my cream male resulted in a cream little girl. 

My blue female to my red male carrying Colourpoint resulted in very beautiful unique litter - 1 colourpoint , 1 black Tortie , 1 calico , 2 black kittens. 

my red female to red male both carrying Colourpoint 50% litter flame point & 2 full red , 2 red & white


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> I have only bred my blue female to my cream male resulted in blue & blue Tortie kittens
> my blue Tortie female to my cream male resulted in a cream little girl.
> *My blue female to my red male carrying Colourpoint resulted in very beautiful unique litter - 1 colourpoint , 1 black Tortie , 1 calico , 2 black kittens.
> my red female to red male both carrying Colourpoint 50% litter flame point & 2 full red , 2 red & white*


Both cats must have at least one colourpoint gene to produce a colourpoint so your blue girl must carry too. GCCF BSH have to be tested but since you list calico and flame point, I assume you register with another organisation.

I am interested in the mention of calico since white and white spotting are dominant genes. I don't know if the latter is different to white which masks even the red gene.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> He does but say he did , what colours could be in the litter thanks for your help I think this thread will help a lot of people in the same position as me!
> 
> so fawn Tortie with blue = cream, blues & blue forties.
> 
> ...


Again, it all depends on what each cat carries.

If the blue boy doesn't carry chocolate or cinnamon you will get blue boys & girls, blue-cream girls and cream boys.

Really it's best if you learn the genetics so you can work it out for yourself. In brief outline:


There are three versions of the 'B' gene - B (black), b (chocolate and b1 (cinnamon). 
Blue is dilute black, lilac is dilute chocolate and fawn is dilute cinnamon.
Dilution is recessive so two dilute cats always produce dilute kittens.
In terms of dominance, B > b > b1.
So, a blue (or blue-cream) cat can carry chocolate _or_ cinnamon and a lilac cat can carry cinnamon. 
Once you know what both cats in a mating carry you can make a punnet square to see what the results are, though with a little practise you won't have to do that.
Tortie & red / cream is the result of the sex-linked O gene. The normal version is 'o', the cat is not tortie etc. 
As normal males are XY, males are normally tortie.
As a normal female is XX, she might be oo - writing what her O gene is - in which case she's not a tortie. If she's Oo she's a tortie and if she's OO she's red or cream.
This is why the answer might not be quick and easy.

Hopefully now you can see the answers to your questions above.

You need to know if either of the cats in the first mating carry chocolate or cinnamon, and in the second mating you need to know if the cinnamon carries dilute.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> I have only bred my blue female to my cream male resulted in blue & blue Tortie kittens
> 
> my blue Tortie female to my cream male resulted in a cream little girl.
> 
> ...


Nothing hugely unique about your litter, but one of the parents must have had white to produce tortie & white which is the correct term in most registries for calico.

Red point is the correct term in most registries, not flame point. And one of the red cats must have had some white to produce a red & white kitten.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

OrientalSlave said:


> Nothing hugely unique about your litter, but one of the parents must have had white to produce tortie & white which is the correct term in most registries for calico.
> 
> Red point is the correct term in most registries, not flame point. And one of the red cats must have had some white to produce a red & white kitten.


I didn't mean unique as in for everyone I meant for myself as I have never had a litter of this many different colours - I only asked as a general thing to learn more about it. I only own blues, a blue Tortie & a fawn so I know that my litters will only result in blues, blue torties and creams (Now I have been informed on this thread) but would be interesting to know more about the subject that's why I have asked the questions I have


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

QOTN said:


> Both cats must have at least one colourpoint gene to produce a colourpoint so your blue girl must carry too. GCCF BSH have to be tested but since you list calico and flame point, I assume you register with another organisation.
> 
> I am interested in the mention of calico since white and white spotting are dominant genes. I don't know if the latter is different to white which masks even the red gene.


My cats are registered on gccf.
My blue girl doesn't carry Colourpoint only the male this is why it was a suprise to see when put with my red male - I have all my cats family tree and looking back 8 generations not one single Colourpoint


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## Maurey (Nov 18, 2019)

Recessives can be carried on for many generations. If she had a colourpoint kitten she has to carry the gene. There’s no other way.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> My cats are registered on gccf.
> My blue girl doesn't carry Colourpoint only the male this is why it was a suprise to see when put with my red male - I have all my cats family tree and looking back 8 generations not one single Colourpoint


Recessives are forever unless you use DNA testing to find out what is going on.

Your girl MUST carry colourpoint to produce a colourpoint kitten. I know of a cat with no visible cinnamon or fawn in 9 generations - until his father produced a cinnamon. On testing he was a carrier.

https://www.langfordvets.co.uk/diagnostic-laboratories/services/cat-genetic-testing/


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> My cats are registered on gccf.
> My blue girl doesn't carry Colourpoint only the male this is why it was a suprise to see when put with my red male - I have all my cats family tree and looking back 8 generations not one single Colourpoint


OK, GCCF terms are tortie & white, and red-point.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> I didn't mean unique as in for everyone I meant for myself as I have never had a litter of this many different colours - I only asked as a general thing to learn more about it. I only own blues, a blue Tortie & a fawn so I know that my litters will only result in blues, blue torties and creams (Now I have been informed on this thread) but would be interesting to know more about the subject that's why I have asked the questions I have


See below - are the blues all tested to see they don't carry chocolate or (less likely) cinnamon? A blue male carrying chocolate can produce not only blue but also lilac kittens with a fawn female.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> My cats are registered on gccf.
> My blue girl doesn't carry Colourpoint only the male this is why it was a suprise to see when put with my red male - I have all my cats family tree and looking back 8 generations not one single Colourpoint


I would have thought this would have been picked up when you registered the colourpoint kitten even if your girl has been put on the full register by mistake. These are the registration rules for selfs. https://www.gccfcats.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BSH.RegPol.March2018.pdf

How did you manage to register the tortie and white?


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

Maurey said:


> Recessives can be carried on for many generations. If she had a colourpoint kitten she has to carry the gene. There's no other way.


Very interesting! I never questioned it so she must carry colourpoint


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

QOTN said:


> I would have thought this would have been picked up when you registered the colourpoint kitten even if your girl has been put on the full register by mistake. These are the registration rules for selfs. https://www.gccfcats.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BSH.RegPol.March2018.pdf
> 
> How did you manage to register the tortie and white?[/QUOTE
> 
> this litter was not registered all went to family members in pairs after being spayed and neutered along with my red male and female this was a few years back before I decided I wanted to breed cats - I now have 2 blue girls , one fawn girl , one blue Tortie female and 2 blue boys all gccf active reg - PKD,FIV & FELV negative.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

OrientalSlave said:


> See below - are the blues all tested to see they don't carry chocolate or (less likely) cinnamon? A blue male carrying chocolate can produce not only blue but also lilac kittens with a fawn female.


I will be testing for colour very soon but it wasnt essential like all other tests that have been done


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> I will be testing for colour very soon but it wasnt essential like all other tests that have been done


I think that's debatable. I colour tested all of my cats at the same time as the health tests. It helps with future litter planning amongst other things.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

Tigermoon said:


> I think that's debatable. I colour tested all of my cats at the same time as the health tests. It helps with future litter planning amongst other things.


Other things.. such as?.
All my cats are blue/blue cream/fawn. Health is most important to me colour not so much I know the basics all mine are dilutes so will only produce dilutes


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Other things.. such as?.
> All my cats are blue/blue cream/fawn. Health is most important to me colour not so much I know the basics all mine are dilutes so will only produce dilutes


Of course health and temperament are paramount but presumably you favour the colours you have. It would be unusual to have all dilute cats unless you prefer those colours.

It is very useful to know your cats' colours. It is simple to do with one simple swab and, if you belong to a club that has a discount from Langford, it really is not terribly expensive compared with the costs of breeding.

To give a couple of examples. You will not have another fawn unless the stud carries cinnamon. On the other hand, if the stud carries chocolate I can tell you from experience you could produce some dubious colour lilacs.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

Of course this is what I’m trying to say the colours I have are the colours I love, if In the future I wanted to produce other colours or home another stud to add new colours I would of course have to colour test etc I know the tests are cheap I have had a look as for now for me they are not necessary. Getting the tests isn’t a issue and money definitely isn’t a issue either.


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

OrientalSlave said:


> Thats if he doesn't carry chocolate or cinnamon. The stats above hold if he does


The OP said that the stud doesn't carry either hence my response.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Other things.. such as?.


Stud work.
Kitten selection.
New cat purchases.
Better mating decisions ...


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

Tigermoon said:


> Stud work.
> Kitten selection.
> New cat purchases.
> Better mating decisions ...


my boys are not open for public stud solely for my girls. 
as I said already in the thread if I wanted to add different colours buy more cats of course I would need to colour test but this is not in my plans, I have two blue boys and my girls colours are blue, bluecream and fawn will only produce dilutes which I'm happy with.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> my boys are not open for public stud solely for my girls.
> as I said already in the thread if I wanted to add different colours buy more cats of course I would need to colour test but this is not in my plans, I have two blue boys and my girls colours are blue, bluecream and fawn will only produce dilutes which I'm happy with.


I think dilutes are lovely too but I expect some others on this thread are like I am and a little confused why you would have a fawn when all you intend to breed are blues. When I started breeding I too wanted blues creams and fawns but things did not turn out how I had planned because the right studs were not available at the time.

I wonder if you will in due course decide you would like more variety. Even for practical reasons it can be a good idea. Quite often kitten owners want two kittens of different colours although I do understand that blue BSH are a very popular colour.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

QOTN said:


> I think dilutes are lovely too but I expect some others on this thread are like I am and a little confused why you would have a fawn when all you intend to breed are blues. When I started breeding I too wanted blues creams and fawns but things did not turn out how I had planned because the right studs were not available at the time.
> 
> I wonder if you will in due course decide you would like more variety. Even for practical reasons it can be a good idea. Quite often kitten owners want two kittens of different colours although I do understand that blue BSH are a very popular colour.


I have my beautiful fawn female as she's my pet before anything else - I love blues but as mentioned I know I will be able to produce cream, blue cream and blues which I'm equally happy with. I never said I only intended to breed blues


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

You’re sure it’s fawn and not lilac? You could also get lilac if he carries chocolate. Best get him tested, it’s not always easy to tell the difference between the two.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

I would echo the previous post. A lilac carrying cinnamon is often not a good lilac.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Thank you! He doesn't carry chocolate or cinnamon so all blue babies it is!





BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Hi just wanted to come on here - we have been blessed with three beautiful kittens , 1 bluecream 1 fawn 1 cream - just to confirm as we had a fawn this must mean dad carries cinnamon?!


So he does after all carry chocolate or cinnamon.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Not sure as they are tiny and 1 day old as they get bigger I will check with a few breeders for their opinion


Even the most experienced breeders working with cinnamon for years sometimes struggle with this  Just get the dad tested, to eliminate guesswork now and in the future. Also, some pics would be nice!


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Not sure as they are tiny and 1 day old as they get bigger I will check with a few breeders for their opinion


You are lucky to have a few breeders near enough to look at the kittens but it can be very difficult to decide for the first few weeks. Obviously it is not easy for us to tell from pics and in any case the lighting can change the colour of dilutes. My old boy's pet name is Biscuit because he looked brown for weeks but he grew up to be a lovely fawn.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## BLUEMOONLONDON (8 mo ago)

.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

BLUEMOONLONDON said:


> Not sure as they are tiny and 1 day old as they get bigger I will check with a few breeders for their opinion


Post a photo here, there are least 2 former breeders here who are familiar with the colours.

Ah - you already have!


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