# Bonding Update



## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Haven't actually started full on bonding yet as I believe Rini might be feisty and may fight so I've been letting them get used to each other with their cages sidebyside. Rini started off grunting and attacking the bars between them but has calmed a bit now and I dont hear her grunt hardly at all, but she is still cautious of him if he moves fast or makes a noise itching his ear loudly (he does go to town on his ear like XD) or flicking his feet. She still seems to be leaning forward towards him but her ears dont go back as often and I'm not sure whether she is in a "ready to pounce" position or putting her head down to him.
Here's some pics of them
This is how I started their cages off (once I moved Theo into the large crate rather than the tiny cage)









Once they were acting ok like that I moved the cages right together.
Sorry these are dark but bedroom lighting was bad, I like this pic as it shows both of them sitting cleaning.

























And now for some Theo cuteness! 















































My Favourite picture of him so far!!!


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

Sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Awww, he is cute.
Fingers crossed that Rini isnt too stroppy!

*Heidi*


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

hazyreality said:


> Awww, he is cute.
> Fingers crossed that Rini isnt too stroppy!
> 
> *Heidi*


Thinking of giving them ten minutes together tomorrow. Not going to let go of them for the first meeting I dont think, I'll keep my hands on Rini so she doesnt feel like being pushy or aggressive. Keep her head down and submissive... Will start stroking them both more if I feel I can lift my hands from her. 
See where it goes from there!


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

TBH I think you will just stress them out like that, because you are Rini's mum first and foremost and thats how she will see you, she will proberly be worse because she needs to protect you as your hands are there. She cant be worse than Gypsy, if she responds to a squirt of water then thats all you need to stop her lunging.
I dont allow Gypsy to do any lunging, grunting, thumping anything like that without a squirt while she is bonding, she soon gets the idea.

*Heidi*


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

hazyreality said:


> TBH I think you will just stress them out like that, because you are Rini's mum first and foremost and thats how she will see you, she will proberly be worse because she needs to protect you as your hands are there. She cant be worse than Gypsy, if she responds to a squirt of water then thats all you need to stop her lunging.
> I dont allow Gypsy to do any lunging, grunting, thumping anything like that without a squirt while she is bonding, she soon gets the idea.
> 
> *Heidi*


Hmm..... she did stop with spraying water but that was through bars... but its neutral territory it shouldnt be too bad... :/ can only try, I'm putting it off but its gotta happen some day :/
Did you have trouble with Gypsy like? Do you think I should wipe them with a cleaning wipe or just put them straight in. I'm going to be wearing thick gloves in case they go to bite so it wont be my naked hand they can see and smell in there and my mam is going to be armed with the water spray XD..... I'm sure we'll deal with anything that happens.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Gypsy is a cow! She will lunge at anyone or anything! She is always the one to cause trouble! I just dont let her get away with it anymore!
If they are neutral territory, the best way would be just to let them in there and leave them together. If you keep seperating them, the bond breaks each time, and it will be pretty much as bad next time, which is worse in the long run!

*Heidi*


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

hazyreality said:


> Gypsy is a cow! She will lunge at anyone or anything! She is always the one to cause trouble! I just dont let her get away with it anymore!
> If they are neutral territory, the best way would be just to let them in there and leave them together. If you keep seperating them, the bond breaks each time, and it will be pretty much as bad next time, which is worse in the long run!
> 
> *Heidi*


You should never let them fight tho! I'll keep a sharp eye on her in case she lunges and I'll make sure to distract her with water.They'll be having meetings every day once I start and then staying in separate cages that are side-by-side.

I think its the slowly but surely way for Rini.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Rini said:


> You should never let them fight tho! I'll keep a sharp eye on her in case she lunges and I'll make sure to distract her with water.They'll be having meetings every day once I start and then staying in separate cages that are side-by-side.
> 
> I think its the slowly but surely way for Rini.


Lol, I mean I dont even let her get away with a foot stomp, because she sets the others off! She is so naughty!

Its up to you obviously how you do it with your 2.

The tried, tested and successful way of doing it it clearly shown on here with all the bonded pairs, trios and larger! Most if not all of the members have bonded in much the same way, with just a few changes on how long, how big a space, things like that, but as I say, its up to you 

*Heidi*


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

hazyreality said:


> Lol, I mean I dont even let her get away with a foot stomp, because she sets the others off! She is so naughty!
> 
> Its up to you obviously how you do it with your 2.
> 
> ...


Yeah, does everyone just leave them in a cage all day and then they are bonded for life? I'm adopting Theo and since I dont have any past experience with bonding they have advised I follow their bonding leaflet and try not to problem solve myself if I'm questioning something. It's their job to make sure their past foster rabbits are safe during bonding and they have had great success with their methods. 
I personally think it can be done different ways depending on your rabbit but I'm putting my trust in this method. I think a lot of people use it.

I've attached the document that I'm following so you can see what you think.
(I hope the doc isnt messed up on your computer cause this version is on mine as I dont have microsoft word XD I had to save it on word pad )


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

Hmmm, read through the document, it strikes me as a bit of an odd way to bond, but I stumbled onto bonding myself (I didnt get any info from the rescue on my 1st bond!) and it worked so i stuck to it, I guess thats what the person writing that has done. 

I dont think anyone on here(that I know of) has bonded like that so I dont think we will be much good for advice  
*Fingers Crossed* that the "dates" go well.

*Heidi*


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

hazyreality said:


> Hmmm, read through the document, it strikes me as a bit of an odd way to bond, but I stumbled onto bonding myself (I didnt get any info from the rescue on my 1st bond!) and it worked so i stuck to it, I guess thats what the person writing that has done.
> 
> I dont think anyone on here(that I know of) has bonded like that so I dont think we will be much good for advice
> *Fingers Crossed* that the "dates" go well.
> ...


Hmm.... well I hope they do, Theo's foster had adopted from their and they bonded the same way. They say they've got a 100% success rate and that it can take at the max 2 weeks normally.

I have to say when I had a rabbit with the guinea pig I always just put them together in the run for the day and they bonded instantly. But the guineapig was a saint and all the rabbits were little babies so very accepting. (dont hate the guineapig/bunny love - it was started back when it was "publicly accepted".)


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2011)

I have to say I agree with Heidi here 

Every bond I have done I have put them together on neutral territory and kept them together (supervised for 72 hours). I find if you constantly split them up you are having to re-start the bond every time they meet.

My longest bond so far took me 4 days before I was happy for them to be free range and that was my group of 5 

Obviously you need to use what ever method you feel comfortable with


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

oh my days!! shell wasnt kidding about the person who took over from her......

the small animal woman has only had control over it for a matter of months (maybe 8 - 10? cant remember when shell quit...) and im pretty certain shell did NOT use that document... did they even give out the rehoming pack that shell worked so hard to put together? it contained some free samples from us.... shell gave the woman all the details but she hasnt contacted us asking for any more samples of any thing....
i helped her put it together and there was a hell of a lot of USEFUL info in it 

i agree with heidi, not a good way to bond, every time you seperate you are effectivly breaking any progress they have made and starting the bond from scratch, and having them next to each other but separated just builds up tension
you are much better putting them together on neutral ground and going for it!

i dont use a spray bottle either, my trick is to hold the agressor in place until they calm down, it effectively puts your self in the bond too, and says that you are the top bun, they calm down after a minute or 2, and normally stop after only a couple of outbursts


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Hmmm well I'm not comfortable with any, as I've never done it with adults. I might bring it up with the pawz people but they seem to have a good track record with this method... plus if I put them together straight away and Theo gets comfortable I dont know whether Rini will be so nice :/ I'm a little concerned about her behaviour as I dont have a clue which way they will go. Maybe short meetings at first will start building trust. They arent really separated as they can see and smell and communicate with each other but they would be going back into their own cages which arent neutral. 
After some successful dates you move onto leaving them together and such forth longer. Then you make both cages smell of them both by swapping them around and then they wont defend that cage. 
But obviously there are a lot of conflicting advice but I have confidence in pawz and I think that bonding can be achieved in different scenarios.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

her behavior is because you are bringing a buck into her space!! he is right next to her cage, that is HERS and she will defend it at all costs, you need to get them both out that room and into a neutral room, her behaviour will change immensely

im not sure how they can claim to have a good track recond with that way, as the woman has only been running it a few months.... and that was NOT the way recomended before 

just checked when shell left paws, and it was mid november..... so only 7 months.... not relly long enought to claim the good track record it sopunds like shes trying =/


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> her behavior is because you are bringing a buck into her space!! he is right next to her cage, that is HERS and she will defend it at all costs, you need to get them both out that room and into a neutral room, her behaviour will change immensely
> 
> im not sure how they can claim to have a good track recond with that way, as the woman has only been running it a few months.... and that was NOT the way recomended before
> 
> just checked when shell left paws, and it was mid november..... so only 7 months.... not relly long enought to claim the good track record it sopunds like shes trying =/


Just saw your message, I got nothing from them like a pack. He was brought by the fosterer and just left with my mam for her to clean and set up the cage.
I didnt get sent the bonding info until a day or 2 after I got Theo.... do you happen to have the old document that pawz used to use? I wouldnt mind reading that. I'll bring it up with Vicky. I couldnt sit in the spare room on the floor for 72 hours so I dont know whether "leaving them to it" would be a good idea either :/. I know the only info you find on the net is normally the bunny date method and also the only videos that ive found have been the dating method.


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> i dont use a spray bottle either, *my trick is to hold the agressor in place until they calm down*, it effectively puts your self in the bond too, and says that you are the top bun, they calm down after a minute or 2, and normally stop after only a couple of outbursts


This shows perfectly conflicting advice too.... I was suggesting I did this and someone has just told me that this would make it worse as they would be protecting me as I would be in the scene......... I'm just so confused now...


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

i just hold their scruff from above (note i do NOT pick them up by the scruff, they are just restrained with all 4 feet firmly on the ground), it purely just stops them lunging and shows them that the desirable behaviour is a CALM behaviour, as they are released once they settle down, it has never effected the bond in any of the ways you said, and i find it much more effective then just spraying them with water as that offers no advice to them on what the correct behaviour is 

i dont think i have any of the old info, shell might still have some... but i havent spoken to her in a while


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> i just hold their scruff from above (note i do NOT pick them up by the scruff, they are just restrained with all 4 feet firmly on the ground), it purely just stops them lunging and shows them that the desirable behaviour is a CALM behaviour, as they are released once they settle down, it has never effected the bond in any of the ways you said, and i find it much more effective then just spraying them with water as that offers no advice to them on what the correct behaviour is
> 
> i dont think i have any of the old info, shell might still have some... but i havent spoken to her in a while


Lol, I didnt say it, someone else did, I thought keeping them in a submissive pose and holding them from lunging was a good idea.

I've sent a message to Vicky but I feel like a douche for not trusting them... I think the water just tells them what NOT to do and they can start grooming themselves when they get wet so it might start them cleaning themselves sooner and get them grooming each other.
I don't know what to do now. I dont think I could set up a secure pen for over night and whatnot, in the spare room :/. I was going to use the side fencing from the run to set up a makeshift pen in the room but that was going to be when I could keep an eye on them not getting out and such.

Hmm...... will still try the bath meeting tomorrow to check on Rini's reactions if people think this is acceptable :/


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> shell might still have some... but i havent spoken to her in a while


If you could get it that would be great.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

try them in the bath tomorrow morning, if you are comfortable with their behaviour do NOT separate them, stay with them for a few hours, then try sort a neutral pen out, do not leave them longer then 10 minutes at a time, then you can move them to the neutral pen where you can keep an eye on them properly for a couple of days, if you split them up, you will be starting the bond from scratch next time you put them together, and you will have to face the same behaviour again


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> try them in the bath tomorrow morning, if you are comfortable with their behaviour do NOT separate them, stay with them for a few hours, then try sort a neutral pen out, do not leave them longer then 10 minutes at a time, then you can move them to the neutral pen where you can keep an eye on them properly for a couple of days, if you split them up, you will be starting the bond from scratch next time you put them together, and you will have to face the same behaviour again


I have set up a 3'x2'ish pen in the spare bedroom as thats the only neutral space in the whole house. I was going to use the bath first but I think I might just put them in the pen straight away. I could keep an eye on them til 6 but then I'm working and I dont think my mam would want to stay upstairs. Also I can't sleep in there and I can't really stay up through the night as again I have work tomorrow and I can't be drained for it. I suppose I could pop in half way through the night or something and then let my mam take over once she's up. It's a lot to ask of her tho. She's not so confident.


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## hazyreality (Jan 11, 2009)

It was me who said not to hold her, as you were planning on holding her for your first "date" so she couldnt get to him, and had to be submissive. I think that would just make mine panic because they couldnt defend themselves or show normal behaviour with a strange rabbit in with them. I dont have a problem with stopping an aggressive behaviour by holding them still for a couple of minutes, infact when Darwin got far too much for Rascal, I did that myself, because he wouldnt back down.

*Heidi*


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm doing the dates as they got agitated after the time pasted and I think short dates at first will mean that they will have a more pleasant time together. 
I trust the people and I know this method works as well. 
The date went ok but not great, could have been worse. Theo is actually trying to be the boss I think which is probably scarey for Rini. They both at one point started cleaning themselves but they only got agitated when the other got too close.

Hope its ok tomorrow, might shorten it slightly.


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

they will just get agitated again when you put them together the "agitation" was probably them starting to work the pecking order out, splitting them up has undone all that they achieved in today's session


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> they will just get agitated again when you put them together the "agitation" was probably them starting to work the pecking order out, splitting them up has undone all that they achieved in today's session


But Theo isn't my rabbit to be honest and I should follow the advice given to minimise the stress and chance of injury to Theo. If I see no change up til Sunday then I might try keeping them together as I have monday tuesday wednesday off work. But I cant ask my mam to do anything as she's not confident enough.


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## cgroome (Feb 21, 2011)

I read the info sheet you attached - and thought I recognised it...it's been taken (word for word) from this website Love Match: A Guide to Bonding Your Rabbits

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing but it seems a bit odd just to give you some info (claimed to be their own) from a website, when you could easily look it up yourself...

Good luck with your bond. I was incredibly lucky with my two, they just got on, almost immediately (after the usual humping etc) and are now complete snugglebuns. Which reminds me...I must take some more pictures!


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## Lil Miss (Dec 11, 2010)

unless you are only fostering him then he IS your rabbit
you do not have to follow "their" bonding instructions, which are naff and not even their own!

that method increases stress, not minimises it!, and is more likely to result in injury as they start the bond from scratch each time they are put together again


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Lil Miss said:


> unless you are only fostering him then he IS your rabbit
> you do not have to follow "their" bonding instructions, which are naff and not even their own!
> 
> that method increases stress, not minimises it!, and is more likely to result in injury as they start the bond from scratch each time they are put together again


Well as I say I can only start the "proper way" on monday :/ if it gets worse I will stop this and if it gets better then thats a plus and I might leave them together sooner.


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

Best of luck, keep us posted. I'm sure it'll work out


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## Paws&Claws (Aug 29, 2009)

I have to agree that seperating them and then putting back together does break the bond. I never let any of my 3 go to the vets alone or anything. If one is going in the run then they all do etc. Rabbits seem to have short memories with who they like so its best to keep them together when bonding.

Ill hopefully be bonding Summer with the other 3 soon. I have 2 very naughty girls that just dont want anything to do with her....  xx


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

They arent really separated, they are right next to each other and can see smell and remember each other fine.
My rabbit is nervous, protective and aggressive to things getting too close. Theo is a little baby who has learnt that Rini is a little twitchy and has copied this behaviour too so he can protect himself. 
However, these dates are slowly allowing them to learn that other rabbits arent anything to be afraid of and today they actually had a really good date, I believe they are moving forward. If they are still like this tomorrow or even better then I will think about leaving them together as I am off work. 
But I can't descent the cage they are moving in to so I was going to swap whos in whos cage near the end of the dating so the cage smells of both of them.
I think, especially if I had put them in together and kept them together on the first date, then they would have just got pissed off at each other and caused some damage. It doesnt take an hour to get rid of years of being alone and protective/nervous. Rini needs time and I'm happy with how this is progressing at the moment. 
If rabbits can remember a date going bad, then I believe that a rabbit can remember a date ending well. If each interaction is good then I hope Rini will get it into her head that another being isn't a threat.
I'm using a water spray to distract them and teach them what behaviours are unacceptable as holding the aggressor til they were calm just wasnt working, it was stressing them out and getting them more nervous, annoyed and agitate. Plus both of them are aggressors at heart so it just wasnt working.
I say again tho, todays session was a lot better and its only the 3rd date. Once I am happy they wont eat each other I will leave them together.

I know you are all trying to help and I appreciate the advice and if I had all the time in the world or the perfect rabbit partnership then I might be able to do it right off the bat. But even with animals, it takes a while to change deep rooted issues. I believe in not forcing my baby girl into a stressful situation that she can never get out of until I've shown that its not a bad situation after all. 

I know this may not be the perfect way to bond in your mind but I am comfortable with it and I believe that will mimic in the attitudes of my rabbits.
When the times right I'll know when to move onto the next step. 
If you dont agree with me protecting the mentality of my rabbit then I'm sorry I'm just over protective. I am comfortable with this and I believe this is working for my situation and my rabbits. Sorry if you don't agree with this. 

Sorry for the rant but making me feel uncomfortable about how I am dealing with the situation isn't much of a help. This might be a "hard way of doing it" but I have quite a hard pairing to deal with. 

I have a feeling everyone will have a problem with this comment. All of you have so much more experience than me. I'm sorry if I'm moving slow and making sure my rabbits are ready... and that I'm ready... sorry for that.


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

jo-pop said:


> Best of luck, keep us posted. I'm sure it'll work out


Thank you! One person who has wished me well without being sarcastic. 
Actually I'm becoming confident it will work. Everyone had got me terrified that I was doing something so heinous that it would never work out.
Fingers crossed, I really hope they start to trust each other, Rini is so stubborn and Theo seems the same -_-'


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## Rini (Jun 23, 2010)

Paws&Claws said:


> Ill hopefully be bonding Summer with the other 3 soon. I have 2 very naughty girls that just dont want anything to do with her....  xx


Oh no, I hope they get over their differences for you ^.^


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