# Advice on small dog cross breeds



## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi,

My border collie sadly passed away around 6 months ago and my family now feel it's time for a new bundle of joy! We were thinking of a smaller dog breed rather than border collie/Labrador/ etc but don't know which one! We like the small dogs characteristics but want something abit cuter looking so though of cross breeds. We recently met a cavachon and loved it so something along those lines. Would very much appreciate all your ideas seeing as your the experts, thanks!


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Come on guys!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

This may help as regards to making a short list of breeds that you may be interested in. It gives an at a glance info on exercise, grooming, noise, life expectancy, size, colours and a brief character sketch.

Perfect Pup

Another good site that goes into a bit more detail and has more on health problems but similar is this one

Dog Breed Health


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Thank you very much, I also see you have a husky... What do you think of the Alaskan Klee Kai?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Small dogs are great - I have 3 small fluffies - but they can be just as naughty and as full as energy as any medium/large breed 

What ever breed/cross breed you decide to go for if you want a Puppy make sure you are completely happy with the breeder and how they look after the parent(s) dog - too many awful breeders out there, especially with the small breeds, breeding litter after litter just to make a lot of money out of a poor breeding bitch who has back to back litters with little or no vet care 

Personally I wouldn't buy a Cavalier or Cavalier cross unless I had a full history on the past breeding and all recomended health tests had been done on the parent dogs before breeding - the health issues in the Cavalier just frighten me.

How much Grooming are you prepared to do?
How much exercise are you hoping to give?
How long will the dog be left alone a day?

A lot of the small dogs are breed to be people companions so often aren't good to be left alone - but they often have plenty of energy so need exercise and mental stimulation just like a bigger dog.

Sorry if I sound like a 'nag' 

Have you looked at Papilions? Great little dogs, intellegent, cute and full of energy


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Sorry Luz but I live down near Windsor so Manchester is a bit far!


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Not sure what advice you are expecting on 'small cross breeds', that's a bit like asking for advice on 'dogs'. What are you looking for? What sort of cross? What do you want from your dog? Do you want grooming? Not grooming?

I haven't met a cockerpoo I didn't like yet, but all the ones I know end up shaved because their fur is just barmy quite frankly. 

I think I did some training with a couple of cavachons, but it's hard to keep up with all the crosses!

My Tinker (in my sig) is a small cross breed, and I think he's pretty cute, but he's mostly terrier, which would be completely different from living with a cavachon or cockerpoo. Fred is also a small cross breed, again - mostly terrier!

Give us something more to work with...


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

I would look carefully into the characteristics of each of the dogs that go into any mix you get

also health testing, crossing two purebreeds doesnt eradicate the need for health testing just increases the number of diseases a pup could suffer from
Cavaliers in particular have some very serious diseases that they suffer from including syringomyelia and heart disease.
Cavaliers that are being bred from should have had their heritage looked into for how many dogs have suffered from the above and have had MRI scans
more info on this can be found out from the Cavalier breed club site

Many eye conditions can be found in many breeds of dog so that would be something you would be looking out for being tested for
for example in my breed the chinese crested , we DNA test for Pll , praPRCD and have glacoma testing doen yearly on breeding dogs. 


You wont get much advice based on your question, 
small breeds vary just as much as any other cross section of dogs
you have italian gryhounds to bichon frises, shih tzus to border terriers, jack russels to japanese chins 

There are some lovely find me a breed tools available on the web that you can have a look at

Who knows you might find the perfect pure breed for you  Something mroe unusual than your day to day dog or maybe just one you had never thought about before
One thing is for sure, we will be able to put you on the right track in finding an ethical breeder of a purebreed much easier than we could for a crossbreed 


regards and best of luck in your search


Vicki


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## BoredomBusters (Dec 8, 2011)

Luz said:


> *It doesn't say what area you live in, but if I was in a position to get a pup I would probably get in touch with these people*
> 
> ‎97 puppies rescued from a dog breeding farm. Manchester police once quarantined are letting them go for £60 each which covers vets bills and their vaccinations
> 
> ...


This is a scam. The pups are in the care of the RSPCA and will stay that way until the court case is settled, they are not for sale.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Jordan66 said:


> Thank you very much, I also see you have a husky... What do you think of the Alaskan Klee Kai?


Lovely dogs
but you need to have a lot of money and a lot of patience to get one of these pups


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2012)

Have you looked t westies? I know you said cross breeds in the title but westies are great dogs. I've got a westie puppy and he is. Joy though at night he likes to be very naughty.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Jordan66 said:


> Thank you very much, I also see you have a husky... What do you think of the Alaskan Klee Kai?


Ive got Huskys and Malamutes, dont know a tremendous amount about the Klee Kai, there are some owners on the forum, dont know if this will be any help in the meantime There is an Alaskan Klee Kai breed club in the UK might be some info on there, I think they are still pretty hard to source and find a good breeder in the UK still though.

Alaskan Klee Kai

There are also other small spitz type breeds though too and are generally more easier then Huskies and Malamutes.


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Sorry I wasn't very specific but I'm open to anything really. At home most days so have plenty of time and rest of the family come in after 4pm. Don't particulary want a lot of grooming however used to brush my border collie daily as she used to get very matted. Basically wanting a small, medium maintenance, friendly and playful dog but wanting something a bit unique and different. Thanks for your suggestions so far I'll have a look into them.


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Thank you for the husky replies, by the sounds of it not going to happen haha!


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2012)

Jordan66 said:


> Sorry I wasn't very specific but I'm open to anything really. At home most days so have plenty of time and rest of the family come in after 4pm. Don't particulary want a lot of grooming however used to brush my border collie daily as she used to get very matted. Basically wanting a small, medium maintenance, friendly and playful dog but wanting something a bit unique and different. Thanks for your suggestions so far I'll have a look into them.


Ok maybe not a westie then. I'm having to brush Buddy daily or his fur gets into all sorts of difficult tangles. I'll put my thinker on.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with the others - there are loads of cute small dogs around.
Before making suggestions I'd like to know things like:

What would you like to do with the dog?
Do you have other pets/children/visiting children?
What sort of characteristics/hair types/other things do you find essential .... or terrible?

Cute small dogs come with many different personalities...what is important to you in a dog?


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Jordan66 said:


> Thank you for the husky replies, by the sounds of it not going to happen haha!


Do you want to go for a really young puppy or are you willing to go for maybe a bit older young dog or an adult? All breeds have their own breed welfare and rescue, so if you decide or the more known crosses you may even get one from there.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

BoredomBusters said:


> This is a scam. The pups are in the care of the RSPCA and will stay that way until the court case is settled, they are not for sale.


Eek  Sorry I obviously fell for that one. Thanks for putting me right!


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Have just remembered the Labradoodle trust a Labradoodle may be too big but they also rescue and rehome the other oodle crosses including cockerpoos etc
that you may be interested in.

Welcome to the Labradoodle Trust - Education, Rescue & Welfare


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks for your advice on the cross breeds. I know understand it's probably better to go for a pure breed. I have 3 children 16,19 and 24 so not young kids... Characteristic wise I wouldn't like short hair, yappy and would like affection, playfulness mainly.


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## Barkley Star (Feb 10, 2012)

Jordan66 said:


> Sorry I wasn't very specific but I'm open to anything really. At home most days so have plenty of time and rest of the family come in after 4pm. Don't particulary want a lot of grooming however used to brush my border collie daily as she used to get very matted. Basically wanting a small, medium maintenance, friendly and playful dog but wanting something a bit unique and different. Thanks for your suggestions so far I'll have a look into them.


If you don't want to do lots of grooming, a cavachon is not for you! Unless you can get them clipped every other month. I've got 2 and they are absolutely lovely, but the coats are a real pain (very nice looking though). The potential heart problems worried me, but we have been lucky so far.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

Jordan66 said:


> Thanks for your advice on the cross breeds. I know understand it's probably better to go for a pure breed. I have 3 children 16,19 and 24 so not young kids... Characteristic wise I wouldn't like short hair, yappy and would like affection, playfulness mainly.


hmmmmm

I don't know much about these choices...cos I love short smooth hair, but I like Cairn Terriers (like Toto from the Wizard of Oz) and they have nice natures and are very cute, I think smaller poodles can be lovely - but would need clipping, maybe a bichon?


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Jordan66 said:


> Thanks for your advice on the cross breeds. I know understand it's probably better to go for a pure breed. I have 3 children 16,19 and 24 so not young kids... Characteristic wise I wouldn't like short hair, yappy and would like affection, playfulness mainly.


If you're home a lot how about a Havanese - not that common in the UK, lovely fluffy affectionate, playful dogs.

Otherwise hit the rescue pages - you never know who's out their waiting to win your heart 
I wasn't looking for a Bichon Frise - but I stumbled across her in the rescue section on this forum - and the rest, as they say, is history


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Well I have a Yorkie and she is a great little dog. Barks a lot admittedly but she is energetic, fun, adaptable and is an excellent lap warmer. I get her clipped short every 3 months or so grooming isn't an issue; I barely brush her inbetween cuts.

Other small breeds to look into include the Border Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Norfolk Terrier, Norwich Terrier and Papillon.


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Havanese look very nice, may look into that. What does everyone think of the cockapoo? I saw someone suggest it earlier and I really like the look of them, they seem to have a nice temperament too


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Jordan66 said:


> Havanese look very nice, may look into that. What does everyone think of the cockapoo? I saw someone suggest it earlier and I really like the look of them, they seem to have a nice temperament too


Cockerpoo's are nice looking cross breeds but as with all cross breeds, you never know exactly what you are going to get. Coat type can really vary and temperament may sway more towards one breed or it may be a mixture of both, which can be good or bad.

Then there is the issue of finding a responsible breeder. Unfortunately many people try and cash in on the trend for Poodle crossbreeds and chuck any two dogs together with no real purpose than to create puppies. Finding a pup from fully health tested parents will be a challenge.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

Jordan66 said:


> Havanese look very nice, may look into that. What does everyone think of the cockapoo? I saw someone suggest it earlier and I really like the look of them, they seem to have a nice temperament too


There is a Cockerpoo Club - and some of the people on it are on here, I can't remember the link but it might be worth checking it out.

I'd be wary for a few reasons:

You don't know what you'll get as it's a cross which can produce a huge range of results - there is huge variation within Cocker Spaniels (show, working, different personalities, types and drives) and poodles vary massively in terms of personality (some of the smaller ones have lines which have been spoilt in terms of temperament by poor breeding - as do many other breeds). So you don't really know what you'll get - and need to be prepared for the extremes of both breeds, which could go from shy, retiring and nervous, to willing to work all day, to massively profuse mental shedding fur to hypoallergenic... so within the term Cockerpoo there is a huge amount of variation in what you actually get.

It's not impossible, but it's hard to find someone who'll breed a cockerpoo from two amazing parents, not saying this doesn't happen, and there are loads of people breeding dogs of all breeds without much thought going into it - but it's usually relatively easy to find responsible breeders of most breeds. With the cockerpoo being a cross not a breed, this could prove more of a challenge, and weeding out the unsuitable breeders will be time consuming and arduous.

All that said - there are some lovely ones about - so if you're keen I'd recommend contacting the Owner's Club - which hopefully someone can link to.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2012)

Jordan66 said:


> Havanese look very nice, may look into that. What does everyone think of the cockapoo? I saw someone suggest it earlier and I really like the look of them, they seem to have a nice temperament too


All the cockerpoos I've known/met have been completely bonkers :lol:

The thing to remember with cross breeds is that the could have any combination of characteristics from the two breeds. A cockerpoo for example could have a full poodle temperament, or a full cocker spaniel temperament, or anything in between, and likewise with appearance. Google Image for Cockerpoo and you'll see how different they all look. So if you go for a crossbreed, make sure you would be happy with both of the single breeds too.

I always think of small dogs as two distinct categories - terriers and toy. Of course it's not quite that black and white, but it's a good place to start. Terriers are full of beans, stubborn, real characters, up for anything in life, know what they want and what they don't! Life is never dull with a terrier! Toy breeds can be all this too, but I think of them more as companions, more biddable, perhaps less manic. Personally I love the terrier temperament, but they're just too 'much' for some people.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Well because I'm biased I'd recommend a chi x jrt like Teebs here:









He's megga intelligent, megga fun and always so very happy. 

Or this one who has no shedding but has to be trimmed. Bruce is a shih tzu x yorkie.









Not as bright as Teebs but is the best ball player ever, great aim and great car companion and walker. Laid back lil guy and very loving. 

Or (lol) this lil girl who's a chi x yorkie no shedding just trimmed.









She's a lap dog if ever there were one, completely loyal to her owner and a constant cuddle kid. 

But if you want a real fun dog, it's got to be Teebs!


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

missnaomi said:


> hmmmmm
> 
> I don't know much about these choices...cos I love short smooth hair, but I like Cairn Terriers (like Toto from the Wizard of Oz) and they have nice natures and are very cute, I think smaller poodles can be lovely - but would need clipping, maybe a bichon?


I saw a poodle that wasn't clipped at all and it was gorgeous! Bit like the brown one on here.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Luz said:


> I saw a poodle that wasn't clipped at all and it was gorgeous! Bit like the brown one on here.


I like them much better like this instead of the show clips, natural or just the puppy clips think they look far better.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

What about a cocker spaniel? Mine was playful, affectionate and didn't shed at all. I found he was a big dog in a little dogs body.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

You need to be wary when buying any puppy, because there are so many dishonest breeders out there, but with cross breeds, a lot, if not all, of the claims about better health, non-shedding, hypo allergenic etc, are just blatant lies unfortunately. If you're not going to go down the rescue route, whatever breeder you go to, whether pedigree or not, you really need to research before you visit them, otherwise you may not be able to say no after seeing the pups, even if you suspect the breeder isn't very good. 

A couple of reasons I wouldn't go and specifically buy a cross breed are that more conformation issues seem to be coming through as more people simply breed litters for cash, and there have also been a couple of incidences of things like juvenile kidney disease cropping up in cockerpoos, which makes me wonder if the two breeds have some some of genetic fault that is more prevalent in the cross breed? I am not a genetics expert, but as has been mentioned, putting two pedigree breeds together doesn't necessarily mean a healthier puppy, it can go the other way round. 

From what you've said I'd suggest something like a miniature or toy poodle, lovely, bright intelligent dogs, their coat does need some maintenance but not as much as some of the cross breeds. Or if you want something a little larger, how about something like a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever? Not too large, fairly similar coat to the more sparsely coated collies from the looks of it, so not huge amounts of grooming in comparison to some breeds, and no clipping unless you possibly end up showing. 

I know it's been said, but it honestly can't be emphasised enough, but definitely research, research and research some more. Too many people breed dogs to exploit them, unfortunately they don't have a tattoo across their forehead telling you this, and may seem like genuinely nice people. 

If you want any help looking at litters/breeders, I'm sure people would be happy to help via pm's.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Jordan66 said:


> Thanks for your advice on the cross breeds. I know understand it's probably better to go for a pure breed. I have 3 children 16,19 and 24 so not young kids... Characteristic wise I wouldn't like short hair, yappy and would like affection, playfulness mainly.


If you're not 100% set on a cross breed then a Border Terrier sounds like it might be a nice fit for you, they also don't have major known health problems (as far as I know).


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## lols82 (Oct 14, 2012)

Jordan66 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My border collie sadly passed away around 6 months ago and my family now feel it's time for a new bundle of joy! We were thinking of a smaller dog breed rather than border collie/Labrador/ etc but don't know which one! We like the small dogs characteristics but want something abit cuter looking so though of cross breeds. We recently met a cavachon and loved it so something along those lines. Would very much appreciate all your ideas seeing as your the experts, thanks!


Depends what you're after? I have a 4 and a half month old Maltese Shihtzhu and he's the cutest wee thing ever, full of fun and mischeif but stubborn to train


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

Luz said:


> I saw a poodle that wasn't clipped at all and it was gorgeous! Bit like the brown one on here.


I agree - but the person said they didn't want to spend much time grooming - so I think you'd have to clip a poodle if you didn't want to spend much time grooming, which is what I meant when I said it would need clipping.


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## PetsAre4Life (Dec 11, 2012)

i have a yorkie westie mix witch is none as a fourche terrier they are very rare but VERY freindly!


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

PetsAre4Life said:


> i have a yorkie westie mix witch is none as a fourche terrier they are very rare but VERY freindly!


Not sure I like any cross breed being called rare (especially as there are several litters advertised on P4H in the last month for under £300 per pup), but thats personal opinion.

To the OP

Whatever cross/pedigree you decide on please please do your homework on what you want from a breeder and what health tests the parents should have had (regardless of whether this is a 1st or 2/3/4th generation cross) xx


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## Jordan66 (Dec 10, 2012)

Thank you very much guys, I particularly like the cockapoo, chi x yorkie and chi x jrt!


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Hi good luck on your search i have a cockapoo and she is hard work.. mad as a box of frogs, 100% on the go all the time, very very clever and intelligent but ever so stubborn.

However she is a sweetie, makes us laugh daily and we wouldnt change her for the world.. what ever you go for make sure the parents are health tested took us a long time to find a breeder who had all the right tests on both parents x


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

I have a cavachon and adore her


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## laurahair (Apr 21, 2011)

my uncle, auntie (brother and sister) and cousin all have border x lakeland terriers, they are from the same line and are actually from the same line as the first border lakeland my uncle had 20+ years ago. Working bred terriers, Nip (uncles dog) is used for rabbitting but Mini (aunties dog) is a pure pet. They are friendly, lively and very cute, not too yappy, but do need good training. If you were interested I could get you the breeders details (north yorkshire).

they look very similar to this
Google Image Result for http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_mknWMS91otU/TCaheyS9HDI/AAAAAAAAArk/THkV7T0PpLs/s1600/BorderTerrier.jpg

and need very little if any grooming, no clipping unless you want to.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

I have a JRT x like Teebs...and I think they share a few similar characteristics...










I think JRT's are an acquired taste...but I love them, and agree with what Malmum said about Teebs


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## Arctic wolf (Dec 9, 2012)

puggle's are a nice cross breed..pug x beagle


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Arctic wolf said:


> puggle's are a nice cross breed..pug x beagle


If you read back to my first post, you'll see that pug crosses seem to suffer a high proportion of problems with jaw deformities and limb deformities. If you think about the face of a pug and a beagle, it's hardly surprising they're not that compatible, makes a nice saleable name though


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## missRV (Nov 9, 2012)

My boyfriend has an obsession with pugs but they're so prone to so many problems that there is no way that I could justify getting one.


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## Luz (Jul 28, 2012)

Jordan66 said:


> Thank you very much guys, I particularly like the cockapoo, chi x yorkie and chi x jrt!


I have a Ch x Yorkie. She has always been a lovely, happy friendly little dog and very cuddly. She has a 5 minute brush every now and then but her hair is more like human hair so it doesn't mat. She probably gets bathed about once a month. She looks like a pale blonde Yorkie and, to my mind, very pretty. You only really see the Chihuahua in her when she's wet!


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## bexs2247 (Jun 26, 2012)

I have a Chihuahua cross pug (Chug) called Lucy - she is gorgeous 

Pic attached is when she was an ickle puppy and we first got her.


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

as a chi owner, can I please please urge you to ensure that the chi parent has been health tested. As a minimum I would want knee (patella) scoring, pra, and heart scan. Preferably a discussion with the owners and full family history (mitral valve, thyroid, cystinuria, hydrocephalus, juvenile hypoglycemia, syringomyelia to name but a few). If the breeder tries to fob you off that no tests are needed (and non are required by KC) or doesnt seem forthcoming with family history then walk away.

I wish you the best of luck, although with the trouble I had finding a breeder who fit my standards for a pedigree you may be searching for some time. 

Can I suggest you have a look at some of the rescues? Many get small x-breed pups in from time to time (Ive definatly seen them on many tears recently), so it may be worth your while looking there - and homing an unwanted dog is a very very good thing to do!


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## Beau-a-saurus (Jan 26, 2011)

Since no one has mentioned them, Bedlington Terriers may be worth a look. often people are put off by the show clip which is a bit extreme however if you go for a puppy clip and keep it about an inch long it is easy to care for, brush once a week and I use sissors to keep it tidy between big trims.

They are a nice mid sized dog 12-17 ish inches tall, fairly light build and lovely soft fleecy fur, they are single coated and have minimal moulting, the also don't produce oil in their coats so don't smell or get greasy (this does mean they are not waterproof and tend to need coats in bad weather) 

Personality wise they are a bit like a muted terrier, mine is very chilled round the house and great in town with people and distractions but does revert to terrier if there is a squirrel or rabbit in sight - training wise it can be done but you have to out think them and be prepared to work round a touch of terrier stubboness he is also a snuggle monster and very affectionate.

for more photos of my rescue working type beddie have a look at my album, for a pup from a breeder make sure they health test as there are a few genetic illnesses you want to ensure are excluded, otherwise I 'think' they re pretty healthy gorgeous little dogs


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Or if you want something a little larger, how about something like a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever? Not too large, fairly similar coat to the more sparsely coated collies from the looks of it, so not huge amounts of grooming in comparison to some breeds, and no clipping unless you possibly end up showing.


I'd scissor retrievers for showing, but never clip them. I suggest a small purebred dog really, unless you go to a rescue centre and see if they have any small dogs?


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

ok quick search on many tears....

omg they have the most adorable litter of shi-tzy x pug x cavs in .... gorgeous gorgeous gorgeous! And soooo many different looks!


They also have several terrier crosses and even a jrt x chi who is under a year! 

I have to say Dilly the 9mo crossbreed (cocker sized) is gorgeous, but my heart was stolen by Flex a scrummy milk chocolate coloured collie x pup!

Sooooo there you go, puppy rescues (and juniours under 1) needing homes and fitting with your requirements


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you read back to my first post, you'll see that pug crosses seem to suffer a high proportion of problems with jaw deformities and limb deformities. If you think about the face of a pug and a beagle, it's hardly surprising they're not that compatible, makes a nice saleable name though


I find that surprising SL. All Pug crosses that I've seen have had very normal canine heads and construction, without the deformities that afflict the Pug. What you would expect really from a cross breeding as the increase in heterozygosity reduces the defect genes to single copy and so reduces the chances of health problems related to construction as well as physiology.

Where is your information from?

ETA: not saying all crosses will be healthy of course, just that the chances of defects are reduced.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Simply put, the two breeds have entirely different shaped heads, and there seem to be quite a few pug crosses with undershot jaws, some severely so. The information is anecdotal, from talking to various people I know on the internet. I don't profess to be a pug expert at all, but when you hear of several cases where people have come across cross breeds with pug in there, and they have the same issue with deformities, it does start ringing alarm bells. 

I'll try and find a link to a website someone started to show the deformed front legs that can occur as well.


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

I would expect some Pug crosses to have underbite but generally much less so than the Pug itself. The lengthening of the top and bottom jaw, from the other breed contribution, should also improve breathing and dentition overall.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

I have a Shih Tzu cross Maltese!

Shes defiently full of spunk! Zoomies come out when ever she gets wet.

Shes loves hikes, forest walks, beaches, trails.

Her fav past time is swimming n rolling in dead animals like seagulls.

Saying that she does love to sleep, she can be a barker, and is not very dog orientated or human orientated BUT does love the dogs/people she knows very well.

The only real real pain in the ass is how god damn picky she can be with food, its frustrating as you cant really try anything knew because youll most likely end up giving to someone else. I leave her food down 24/7 n fill it back up every two days or so.

Her hair is lot and very thick. You have to do daily brushing. She gets a bath once a month and every two months shell go to the groomers (bout 50$) for a full shave. But we are growing her hair out for winter but I have decided to just stick with her being shaved as her hair is knotting cause of her sweaters.










I would defiantly have another Sophie or one of her breeds that makes up her cross


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

pod said:


> I would expect some Pug crosses to have underbite but generally much less so than the Pug itself. The lengthening of the top and bottom jaw, from the other breed contribution, should also improve breathing and dentition overall.


Found the website, also found a website for an insurance company in the states which is listing known health problems for Chugs!!

Anyway, the puggle stuff:

Autumnal

And another one I came across:

Angular and rotational limb deformities: Slumdog has his day in the OR | petMD

I'm not sure if that last one is a pug x beagle, but it highlights the leg deformity that seems to be an issue with using pugs to outcross to a different breed, which in the vast majority of cases I'm guessing is simply to line the pockets of a breeder who can make up an appealing name.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

A lady where I walk Flynn has two pug x chi's and they are lovely looking dogs. Both Black and Tan. Bruce has a funny bite but then don't Shij tzu's have that look to them - thought they did. No problem for him though. With crosses its the luck of the draw I suppose. Have seen loads of chi/Jrt's that are the spit of Teebs but he's the smallest I've seen so far and definitely the best, lol! 

The lady's crosses look far healthier than the average Pug but as pups they did have quite 'poppy eyes' which as they grew started to become less prominent. I like that mix but am def not a Pug look fan. Had I not had my guys I would have willingly taken on a friends pug/chi foster a few months ago, he was soooo adorable. 

JRT's/Pugs are lovely too!


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Found the website, also found a website for an insurance company in the states which is listing known health problems for Chugs!!
> 
> Anyway, the puggle stuff:
> 
> ...


I don't believe there is an issue with using Pugs to outcross. What we have here is anecdotal evidence that deformities occur. They can of course occur in any breed or cross. And there could be reasons for the deformities other than this particular gene combination.

If there was an issue with Pug type construction being crossed with a more normal type (eg Beagle) there would be many more of these to see as the Pug is used extensively. Health problems in the Pug is a far bigger issue IMO.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

pod said:


> I don't believe there is an issue with using Pugs to outcross. What we have here is anecdotal evidence that deformities occur. They can of course occur in any breed or cross. And there could be reasons for the deformities other than this particular gene combination.
> 
> If there was an issue with Pug type construction being crossed with a more normal type (eg Beagle) there would be many more of these to see as the Pug is used extensively. Health problems in the Pug is a far bigger issue IMO.


I think you're wrong, in the nicest possible way, I think the health issues with the pug are a concern with the pedigree breed, AND with outcrossing to other breeds. Since there are obviously cases of deformities with both the pedigree breed and with outcrosses to other breeds, it's simply irresponsible to breed and hope that your outcross won't be affected.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Found the website, also found a website for an insurance company in the states which is listing known health problems for Chugs!!
> 
> Anyway, the puggle stuff:
> 
> Autumnal


I think you should note that the 'list' of problems of Chugs is not greater than the list of problems with Pugs and Chihuahuas of the purebred counterparts - including the odd dentition. Pugs are famous for it. Chihuahuas are also famous for dentition trouble - not necessarily off-bites but teeth that need a lot of care (so are Papillons BTW - I have a good friend with fantastically well bred Paps - one a dual CH and ALL need pricey dental work after 5 years of age).

On the Puggles link this particularly makes me chuckle.

_"To mix these 2 breeds could leave you with a puppy who wants to run all day using a nose which is too short and one who could keel over in the Summer, how cruel is that."​_​
This is aimed at the idea of a Puggle and blamed on the 'mix', but I know Pugs with EXACTLY this problem, so why is it not aimed at the Pug breeders just as much? The Puggle at least has much more of a chance of moderation on that short snout so more ability for a better sized air chamber - which is needed for cooling (and in my climate warming) air.

I actively sought out a Pug eight years ago. I could not find ONE breeder in North America that was doing the testing that would warrant breeding from this breed with the high amount of conformation conditions it is prone to - hip testing being almost completely remiss across the board, and from the breeders that did hip test information on BAOS was not collected.

The same, however, can be said for the crossbreeders of Pug/Beagle at the time (which I entertained the thought of), so I avoided both the mixes and the pure.

Why, then, mix breeders are singularly targetted in the links like you posted leaving those that breed these problems most often a bye, I cannot fathom - prejudice and purebreeding promotion propoganda is all I can chalk it up to.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> And another one I came across:
> 
> Angular and rotational limb deformities: Slumdog has his day in the OR | petMD
> 
> I'm not sure if that last one is a pug x beagle, but it highlights the leg deformity that seems to be an issue with using pugs to outcross to a different breed, which in the vast majority of cases I'm guessing is simply to line the pockets of a breeder who can make up an appealing name.


As you are not involved in the smaller breeds I'll take it that you are not aware this 'leg deformity' - queen anne legs - is a common occurance when you breed achondroplastic dwarfs. Achondroplasia is a trait bred for to get the short legs in many of the small breeds with an attempt to get the 'straighter leg' in most but the bent leg crops up in pure AND mixed achondroplastic dogs. Some breeds favor a degree of this in their standard (Pekingese).

For the OP - do you have a list of traits you desire in a dog?

For example:

-Weight/height range

-Coat type - (keep in mind non shedding means also a bearded dog that will require regular brushing, clipping every couple of months and face cleaning for tear stains and food stains usually daily). Having owned a non-shedding/fluff in the past I won't again as coat maintenance made me crazy. I prefer medium/long coats that are scant (field coats my favorite).

-Activity level - the Cavalier is a favorite of mine cuz commonly they are low-moderate in activity level. That might have been what attracted you in the Cavachon you met. I happen to like both the mixbreed and the purebred Cavalier and Bichon so I understand your attraction.

I have found that many that like this type of dog will also like the Tibetan Spaniel and it is a breed that I believe is on the right track generally - although if you are used to a Border Collie you might want to consider the biddability. I sit a very biddable Tibbie, and that can be found in lines, but often they have a strong mind of their own. Some people really don't like that. They also shed but are easy coat care but for in the spring (shed season).

Whatever you choose please be aware all dogs bred require scrutiny for breeding which includes accounting for structure and health conditions that the parents might be prone to. For small dogs a confirmation of sound patellas in the parent dogs is really quite important, and as well eye conditions and heart conditions are common small dog problems, so speak with all breeders about what they do about at least those three things.

Do your research on the breeds with careful attention to health so you can ask questions of the breeder and as well make sure you meet the parents of your future pup before you decide on purchasing.

CC


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## pod (Jun 24, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I think you're wrong, in the nicest possible way, I think the health issues with the pug are a concern with the pedigree breed, AND with outcrossing to other breeds. Since there are obviously cases of deformities with both the pedigree breed and with outcrosses to other breeds, it's simply irresponsible to breed and hope that your outcross won't be affected.


There's no doubt that deformities occur in crossbreeds, I'm not disputing that. If you are looking for a breed or crossbreed that is totally healthy, then you will be looking forever, that does not happen.

The crucial factor is the frequency. If you breed within a restricted gene pool (pedigree breeding) you will breed a higher proportion of dogs with deformities. Crossbreeding Pugs will produce deformities because the Pug already is badly compromised physically. Using a more normal canine type to outcross to will produce less compromised offspring.... generally.


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## Born to Boogie (Oct 1, 2010)

Jordan66 said:


> What do you think of the Alaskan Klee Kai?


If you like the Klee Kai; what about a Japanese Shiba Inu, a Basenji or a Schipperke?
Spitz/primitive breeds can be an aqired taste. You would need to do your homework and make sure you were prepared to take on a whole lot of dog


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> I think you should note that the 'list' of problems of Chugs is not greater than the list of problems with Pugs and Chihuahuas of the purebred counterparts - including the odd dentition. Pugs are famous for it. Chihuahuas are also famous for dentition trouble - not necessarily off-bites but teeth that need a lot of care (so are Papillons BTW - I have a good friend with fantastically well bred Paps - one a dual CH and ALL need pricey dental work after 5 years of age).
> 
> On the Puggles link this particularly makes me chuckle.
> 
> ...


Answering quickly whilst topping up my wine glass, but I'd hoped I'd sort of made it clear with my response to pod about both pugs and the cross bred dogs with pug in there, all having problems. The difference as I see it, is if you breed pedigree pugs, and you keep a record of problems that occur, you can do your best to avoid these issues. Random outcrosses that may or may not have this problem are as bad as people who simply breed pure bred pug types without any knowledge about whether the pups are *likely* to suffer with this sort of deformity. Nothing is guaranteed, but pot luck simply isn't an excuse in my books.



pod said:


> There's no doubt that deformities occur in crossbreeds, I'm not disputing that. If you are looking for a breed or crossbreed that is totally healthy, then you will be looking forever, that does not happen.
> 
> The crucial factor is the frequency. If you breed within a restricted gene pool (pedigree breeding) you will breed a higher proportion of dogs with deformities. Crossbreeding Pugs will produce deformities because the Pug already is badly compromised physically. Using a more normal canine type to outcross to will produce less compromised offspring.... generally.


That's assuming the breed is *deformed* or that there is a problem within the breed that produces deformities that can have an impact on health I take it? I really am not a pug expert, and whilst I am aware there are health issues, I wouldn't like to comment with any degree of accuracy, particularly after two glasses of wine. But surely if you are aware of problems within a breed and know your lines, it's more ethical to breed dogs that are less likely to have problems, than outcross with the hope that you won't have problems? At least you are breeding with some knowledge, rather than relying on statistics that the pups won't suffer. I hope that makes sense


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Found the website, also found a website for an insurance company in the states which is listing known health problems for Chugs!!
> 
> Anyway, the puggle stuff:
> 
> ...


I have a pug x JRT - he was second hand via a shelter...and I ADORE him. He's the first dog of my own that I've ever had and no dog will ever ever EVER be like him because he was the first and therefore will always be special. He's brilliant - he walks for long days in the mountains with us and our GSD, he is funny, intelligent, happy and I wouldn't change him for the world. I would love another dog like him.

But I will not buy a Pug x JRT puppy because the risks are too high. I have never seen a health tested litter, and I frequently search for adults for sale out of curiosity more than anything, and they very very rarely look like my dog. There is huge variation. And actually, my dog Ringo is all terrier in personality - so the closest to Ringo would probably be getting an actual JRT...

He so far (after nearly 3 years) appears healthy - we do flyball and agility and he is AWESOME, but having read this... I think he has that twisty-outy leg thing - although not as extreme as in the links posted...


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

Born to Boogie said:


> If you like the Klee Kai; what about a Japanese Shiba Inu, a Basenji or a Schipperke?
> Spitz/primitive breeds can be an aqired taste. You would need to do your homework and make sure you were prepared to take on a whole lot of dog


Schipperke was one of our breed short-lists, and as much as we loved those we met, we felt for us (as novices) they weren't the right fit for our family as it stands now... perhaps in a few years (thinking wistfully).

I'm not suggesting to the OP that they arent right for him, just that like any breed please do your homework and dont choose a breed based on looks alone.


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Answering quickly whilst topping up my wine glass, but I'd hoped I'd sort of made it clear with my response to pod about both pugs and the cross bred dogs with pug in there, all having problems. *The difference as I see it, is if you breed pedigree pugs, and you keep a record of problems that occur, you can do your best to avoid these issues.* Random outcrosses that may or may not have this problem are as bad as people who simply breed pure bred pug types without any knowledge about whether the pups are *likely* to suffer with this sort of deformity. Nothing is guaranteed, but pot luck simply isn't an excuse in my books.


Yes, some of the idea that the 'breeds' could get this as well came through, however I believe you and I would disagree on the bolded part.

Pug breeders have proven to me (through study) that record keeping has not been good enough with regard to the conditions in the breed to make anything 'better' in the purebred to that of the random bred outcross, especially as the outcross does have a heterozygote AND conformation trait advantage - less likelihood of this stuff 'cropping' up - even though randomness is involved. I don't want to pick on the breed and will state that there are a FEW small breeds I'd say this about.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's assuming the breed is *deformed* or that there is a problem within the breed that produces deformities that can have an impact on health I take it? I really am not a pug expert, and whilst I am aware there are health issues, I wouldn't like to comment with any degree of accuracy, particularly after two glasses of wine. But surely if you are aware of problems within a breed and know your lines, it's more ethical to breed dogs that are less likely to have problems, than outcross with the hope that you won't have problems? *At least you are breeding with some knowledge, rather than relying on statistics that the pups won't suffer. I hope that makes sense*


I believe this is where a deep chasm occurs between those who would rather 'the devil they know' and those that are willing to gamble with knowing a 'little' less. In a number of breeds I don't believe that ANYONE has the knowledge of lines that can trump heterozygote advantage. That is on the prevalence of known conditions in those breeds and their favored conformation traits.

Very frankly I believe the *odds* of a pup suffering even from the very 'best' and most knowledgeable is higher than that of pups suffering from those that rely more heavily on statistics.

There is also an option missed above the two you suggested - relying on statistics AND breeding with some knowledge, which IS what some of those that outcross DO.

That is where the best advantage is for pups.

CC


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> Yes, some of the idea that the 'breeds' could get this as well came through, however I believe you and I would disagree on the bolded part.
> 
> Pug breeders have proven to me (through study) that record keeping has not been good enough with regard to the conditions in the breed to make anything 'better' in the purebred to that of the random bred outcross, especially as the outcross does have a heterozygote advantage - less likelihood of this stuff 'cropping' up - even though randomness is involved.
> 
> ...


I can imagine you're spot on with the record keeping, and obviously there will be some people who *know* there is a problem with their dogs, but don't want to openly admit it. Things definitely do get swept under the carpet. But I can't agree with the random outcrossing, as you say, that's where we will possibly always differ. There is always the possibility of producing deformities with pups or any animal, but at least if you research what has happened with the dogs within your breed, with similar breeding, you have some idea of what has been produced, and what is *likely* to be produced. However, if you randomly outcross, you aren't going on any knowledge, instead you are guessing, and relying on statistics to back up your guess. That's what I can never agree with.

As for your third scenario, is that actually possible, to outcross with knowledge of what you will get? Can you guarantee a size, shape, congenital health for an outcross?


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## JAChihuahua (Nov 23, 2012)

I have to say having looked at some of the pug health issues (and not in depth as we never considered this breed = just quick google now) I would be worried about an untested chihuahua cross. They appear to share some of the same health issues, and to buy a cross from untested parents and from breeders who do not know the entire history of their line worries me.

They share epilepsy, slipping patella, pra, mitral valve, hydrocephalus, syringomyelia, collapsing trachea .... (there may be more but this was from a 5min google).

Of course if the breeder has done all their research, all health tests AND has that family history, then I would certainly not rule out a chi x pug pup, so long as I was aware that crossing the two doesnt guarentee good conformation, it may indeed inherit all the "worst" aspects of both breeds. 

Quick question though....

I thought outcrossing was designed to improve a breed (such as the dalmatians without the bladder/kidney problem, or to prevent a rare breed dying out)?

Crossbreeding seems somewhat different? I know sometimes its done for creating a working type, but it seems more often that its done just to make money.


Perhaps someone can correct me? please

edit: I have no objection to crosses at all, we looked into several popular crosses before shortlisting our chosen breeds, but finding crosses with correct health tests and breeders who were creating these pups for genuine reasons seemed impossible to find (not one we spoke to had any intention of keeping a pup for example, and not one had done even the most basic of health tests required before mating) .... just my own experience and observations.

If I were to get a cross pup, it would certainly be from a rescue as I have no intention of ever lining the pockets of a breeder who doesnt fit with my ethics.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

JAChihuahua said:


> I have to say having looked at some of the pug health issues (and not in depth as we never considered this breed = just quick google now) I would be worried about an untested chihuahua cross. They appear to share some of the same health issues, and to buy a cross from untested parents and from breeders who do not know the entire history of their line worries me.
> 
> They share epilepsy, slipping patella, pra, mitral valve, hydrocephalus, syringomyelia, collapsing trachea .... (there may be more but this was from a 5min google).
> 
> ...


Cross breeding and out crossing is the same thing, usually the latter term is used to describe something that's actually done with a purpose. So the LUA dalmation project was an outcross to try and improve the health within the breed, and I forget why but yes it's something to do with crystals in the urine from memory, can't remember the technical term.

Basically it's using a dog from an different gene pool. The problem is that when pedigree breeds were developed, they all shared similar backgrounds, so in the background for retrievers, you will find they share similar breeds, possibly each one influenced by other breeds, so for flatcoats, apparently they were influenced by setters. That means, if you outcross, or cross breed, unless you know what you're doing, you can't really be certain that you're truly outcrossing to a gene pool that won't have similar/same defects as your breed already has.

That's how I understand it, I hope I'm pretty much there or there abouts!


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> As for your third scenario, is that actually possible, to outcross with knowledge of what you will get? Can you guarantee a size, shape, congenital health for an outcross?


Have you looked at the history involved behind the Cockapoo?

I'm speaking of the American Cocker (which has rarely/never been bred for sporting and which is smaller than the English) and the Miniature Poodle - another 'pet' temperamented dog.

Yes, you can KNOW what size and shape and health you are looking at IF you use compatable breeds, for instance an American Cocker that you have knowledge of and a Poodle that you have knowledge of. That has to do with the fact that you are breeding with similar sizes and neither is incredibly exaggerated with regard to conformation. You end up with a moderate boned dog with a moderate length muzzle and drop ears and an eye not as round as a Cockers but still fairly round and a wavy coat WITH an undercoat (as Cockers have one and it is dominant).

In the second gen crosses then things become problematic and that is where you often see the variation. In this cross this is where you see the greatest coat variation, but the structure remains moderate even in the second gen crosses.

Frankly I've been scouring out Cockapoo breeders for a 'smooth coated' second gen cross as a possibility for a next purchase as that is they type of dog I favor. The *smooth* coat from the cocker side comes through but the exaggeration has been nullified by the Poodle crossed in, which helps me a lot as it is the currently bred for Am. Cocker coat and plush head which I personally have no use for.

This brown dog here is almost identical to the Cocker of my youth - and is a smooth cockapoo. The buff - blond is a Cocker!










http://ilovemycockapoo.com/showthread.php?t=9376

I found a pup this year - parents proven in therapy and health testing behind the lines - but this is at least five years too early.

What some of those who have taken up arms against cross-breeding have forgotten is that in many places this cross was EMBRACED for a couple of decades and those who bred pure ALSO bred this cross. The first dogs I knew were from a champion Poodle and the Cocker breeder also showed her Cockers.

It only became 'a problem' for those breeders when the great 'anti crossbreeding' push back campaign started in the mid 90s.

Pointing outward at weaknesses is not a good promotional campaign IMHO as it begs for others to look in at the accusers very closely. Bragging about one does right is a much better way to go.

CC


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

comfortcreature said:


> Have you looked at the history involved behind the Cockapoo?
> 
> I'm speaking of the American Cocker (which has never been bred for sporting and which is smaller than the English) and the Miniature Poodle.
> 
> ...


No I haven't to be very honest, but I have however pointed out to those who are vehemently against cross breeds, that actually, some have been around for as long as, if not longer, than some recognised pedigree breeds. I am certainly not a snob for the sake of being a snob, as it were. I'm just anti unethical breeding as I see it, and perhaps my choices about what's ethical, and what's not, are the only difference between us.

I am chuckling away at your first sentence, about the American cocker *never* been bred for sporting, and yet if you ask any owner who shows they would never own up to having a dog that's got a coat so fluffed up it'd get stuck in a bramble patch quicker than you could say 'hup', they will swear blind they are bred to hunt quail. So if you have any suicidal quail over there that like to jump into the open mouths of dogs that are stuck in bramble patches because their coat is too fluffy, you have the perfect breed 

I have to say, I'm not a fan of the American cockers, they are everything wrong about showing for me, what was wrong with the original cocker spaniel that was exported to the States?

Interestingly, cockerpoos are one of the few cross breeds that I see and *know* they are a cross breed of those two breeds. I'm not sure if that's because their popularity means there are so many images of them that I have a subconscious recognition? I've come across labradoodles that I wouldn't have guessed contain either breed!!


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

> I have to say, I'm not a fan of the American cockers, they are everything wrong about showing for me, what was wrong with the original cocker spaniel that was exported to the States?


In my own tiny world my experience tells me that the reason FOR the popularity of crossbreeds has come from those so many of us that have been floored by what has been done to our favorites from in our youth.

I don't know WHAT was wrong with the original. Nothing in my eyes.

I see the push from the Cockapoo associations to try to create a breed a possibility as outcross material for a couple of our breeds 'in need' as well. History and health testing is there in a crossbred gene pool.

I just wish all would stop the finger pointing and start co-operating with each other. Throughout history purebred 'breeds' were bred alongside the landrace and mutt gene pools, and often reached back in. I can't see any sound reasoning for why that should be changed now.

CC


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## leicesterlad (Feb 9, 2012)

missnaomi said:


> There is a Cockerpoo Club - and some of the people on it are on here, I can't remember the link but it might be worth checking it out.


Here's a link to the Cockapoo Club of GB www.cockapooclubgb.co.uk



missnaomi said:


> I'd be wary for a few reasons:
> 
> You don't know what you'll get as it's a cross which can produce a huge range of results - there is huge variation within Cocker Spaniels (show, working, different personalities, types and drives) and poodles vary massively in terms of personality (some of the smaller ones have lines which have been spoilt in terms of temperament by poor breeding - as do many other breeds). So you don't really know what you'll get - and need to be prepared for the extremes of both breeds, which could go from shy, retiring and nervous, to willing to work all day, to massively profuse mental shedding fur to hypoallergenic... so within the term Cockerpoo there is a huge amount of variation in what you actually get.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't disagree with anything said here about Cockapoos.

The challenge of weeding out the unsuitable breeders has begun and the list of Cockapoo breeders that have been inspected and meet the code of ethics is growing.


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## RatsnCatnKids (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi there, I'm new to dogs and this forum so please be patient! For a couple of years we've been thinking of getting a dog and I feel like now is the right time. 
Neither hubby nor I have ever had a dog but I had a boyfriend for 7 years with bitch border collies - gorgeous (the dogs that is!).

I am looking for a dog with the following qualities:
Small
Non-shedding (daughter has asthma and son has chronic rhinitis)
Takes well to training.
Good with children
Good with other animals
Not too highly strung
Not requiring very long country walks.

About us:
Family of four, incl. 11 yr old girl and 14 yr old boy
Have 2 rats and a young and assertive female cat.
House with small garden.
I am at home a lot.

I have done quite a lot of research on the internet. I like the look and sound (trait-wise) of Havanese and Bolognese but I know they are quite rare. I also like chihuahua/yorkie crosses but would really appreciate the wisdom of your experience on any small breeds or crossbreeds that you feel fits the above facts. One of the things that worries me is making sure I find a reputable seller as I don't feel we have the experience to cope with an animal that needs specialist medical or behavioural care.
Thank you!


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Miniature Poodle?

(and a set of clippers)

Do well at agility so that's the training/ non shedding boxes ticked.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

RatsnCatnKids said:


> Hi there, I'm new to dogs and this forum so please be patient! For a couple of years we've been thinking of getting a dog and I feel like now is the right time.
> Neither hubby nor I have ever had a dog but I had a boyfriend for 7 years with bitch border collies - gorgeous (the dogs that is!).
> 
> I am looking for a dog with the following qualities:
> ...


The perfect pup is a good website, that gives you at a glance info on things like size, grooming requirements, exercise levels character sketch etc.

Perfect Pup

A good site that is similar but goes into more detail as regards health problems and what tests are available that can be carried out of parents prior to breeding is dog breed health.

Dog Breed Health

Once you have made a short list, best place for further specific breed advice and usually info on how to source a good breeder is the individual breed clubs.

Havanese Club of Great Britain

Assured Breeders for Havanese

Home - Official British Bolognese club website - Bolognese dogs - bolognese breeders

Assured Breeders for Bolognese

Another similar breed is the Bichon friese.

Lots of info about the breed and health and sorcing good breeders on the bichon welfare and rescue site.
Choosing a Bichon Frise

Home Page


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## RatsnCatnKids (Apr 4, 2013)

Thank you! That's very helpful. I'm off to look at the pup links now.


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## Bijou (Aug 26, 2009)

Here are just a few - remember though that dog allergies are not always caused by the fur itself but by the dander that ALL dogs will shed if you do go for a non shedding breed remember that it will need weekly trips to the groomers for regular trims so you will have to factor this cost in - personally I'd go for the Miniature Poodle - smart, cheerful, active dogs that are excellent with kids and can turn their paw to almost any doggy activity your family chooses to do

*Small*

Bichon Frise - non shedding










Havanese - non shedding










Chinese crested - hairless has very little coat










Griffon Bruxellois - light shedding










Lowchen - non shedding










Toy Poodle - non shedding










Coton Du Tulear - non shedding/










*a bit bigger*

Kerry Blue - non shedding










Miniature Poodle - non shedding










Miniature Schnauzer - light shedding










Hungarian Puli - non shedding










..and just finally - please buy responsibly and support those breeders who 'do it right' - always go via the breed club of your selected breed or the Kennel Club's Assured Breeders Scheme 
Accredited Breeder Scheme | The Kennel Club

always insist on seeing the results of any BVA health tests ( not simply a check up from their local vet ) and ask to visit the breeder to see the kind of environment your pup will be reared in and to meet the mum ( this is especially important if you have young children ) and be prepared to wait and perhaps have to travel some distance for the right pup especially if you chose one of the less well known breeds - NEVER buy via one of the generic internet puppy sale sites , from your local free ads, from pet shops or through a middle man and steer clear of breeders who have loads of different breeds available.

Take your time, do your research and I'm sure the perfect pup will be out there for you


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## Sosha (Jan 11, 2013)

Or a more au naturel poodle - without the (IMO) ridiculous haircuts:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/MinPoodle_wb.jpg


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## RatsnCatnKids (Apr 4, 2013)

Thank you. I have now added the Coton de Tulear and miniature poodle to my list of possibles. I had a great aunt who had a lovely little black poodle who was 'au naturel' and I loved her. She was very gentle but also, unfortunately, blind. 
 I've learned from looking at the dog breeds site recommended above that this is something to watch out (no pun intended) in miniature poodles?


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## catseyes (Sep 10, 2010)

Yep poodles can carry a gene which causes the dog to have PRA (progressive retinol atrophy) I have a cockapoo and we found a good breeder and both her parents were health tested as not carrying to ensure the pups wouldnt suffer with it.

My oes boy has just been diagnosed with pra having gone blind in the last 2 weeks shows how important health testing is.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Pedigree/Crossbreed, it all comes down to the breeder in my opinion. Pedigrees have more genetic faults which can be passed on, crossbreeds have far more bad breeders in it just to "make money".

I quite like Dog Breed Health which gives a balanced view in my opinion.

It's not something for everyone but have you considered seeing what is available if you went to a shelter to rescue a dog? Not all of them have problems or are older dogs.


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## RatsnCatnKids (Apr 4, 2013)

Thanks, Goblin. I have been keeping an eye on rescue centres in our region but there don't seem to be many small dogs availabe, apart from 
Jack Russell terriers and JRT crosses and I don't want a terrier. I'm also concerned that we wouldn't really know the background and, being first time owners, we have no experience.


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