# Can any1 help im looking to breed my bitch but she wont stand! :(



## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

Iv tried to breed my labrador bitch 3 times but she will not stand. I havnt breed dogs before so i dont know about when is the best time to breed her. Everytime i try to breed her she yelps and bites the male. Can anyone help or give any advice??


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

hi there, i am sure someone will be along in a mo


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Iv tried to breed my labrador bitch 3 times but she will not stand. I havnt breed dogs before so i dont know about when is the best time to breed her. Everytime i try to breed her she yelps and bites the male. Can anyone help or give any advice??


What about getting some advice from the breeder you got ur bitch from?
You really ought to know more about breeding before actually trying it I think...


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Oh and there is a "sticky" on this issue as well ("thinking of breeding your bitch")..may help!

xx


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2009)

Maybe she's not ready!

or failing that maybe she has better taste then you credit her for and doesn't approve of your choosen suiter(smiley face)


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

If you dont know when your bitch is ready to go to stud then i do suggest you look into breeding A LOT more.

If your bitch wont stand and she is Biting the male then she is not ready at all to go to stud.

also can i direct you to this thread: http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/31356-journey-first-time-litter.html


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Bitches seasons are all different, mine follow a fairly classic timetable, but others I know of go against all the rules.

Can I just give you a true story here, to highlight the need for researching thoroughly before you go ahead and try standing her?

I know of a lady who has stud dogs, and to be honest, a stud dog service done correctly, can be scarier than having a bitch you want to breed out of. She had a bitch brought to her, and her dog unsuccessfully tried to cover the bitch. The owners took the bitch away and had it covered by a different stud dog, but the bitch never took. Next season, they tried again with the lady I know, who this time decided due to the same difficulty with the bitch allowing the stud dog to cover her, to carry out an internal examination of the bitch, only to discover quite a way inside there was a lump. On further examination by a vet, it turned out that the lump was a tumour and required immediate removal. The bitch was spayed at the same time - these were people who'd gone to the trouble of health testing their bitch, and done their homework, they were lucky they used an experienced stud dog owner. Had their bitch taken, it was unlikely either she or any pups would have survived.

This breeding malarky isn't for the feint hearted, its not just about ensuring you've had the correct health checks done for the breed, its also about arming yourself with the full knowledge in case anything happens during the process. Head knowledge is good, but definitely go back to the breeder and ask for guidance, nothing compares to having someone there who knows about mating and whelping.


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## Kinski (Apr 4, 2009)

I've never bred from any of my dogs but my sister has, she let her staffie have a litter and I remember her telling me that it cost her a small fortune to do all the necessary health checks, then she had to make sure that she had enough money put by just in case her dog needed a c. section, she also had a contract with the new owners of the pups that if anything went wrong the dogs were to go back to her. That was 7 years ago and she is still in touch with the owners, unfortunately her dog died from cancer when her pups were 4 years old.
I also have a neighbour who bred from her Great Dane, she was left with 4 of the pups as no one wanted them and as it was costing her a fortune to feed them she handed them over to Great Dane rescue.

Terri


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

*I have to say Im pretty gobsmacked that someone would consider even putting there bitch to stud without even knowing the basics of there bitch :thumbdown:

I have spent years preparing for the day my first litter of pups arrive, asked 100's of questions from Breeders, friends, reading books, searching the internet and finally getting the all clear from my vet to proceed.

If someone doesn't even know when to have a bitch mated what hope do they have of caring for her whilst in whelp and then giving the pups 100%

I may not know everything, but i have tried.

Sorry i don't normally gripe but this sort of grips me* :incazzato:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

I agree with the above posts. Is the Stud dog yours ?


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## cav (May 23, 2008)

all dogs are different
i dont think it sounds like you have a clue what your doing
think i would give breeding a miss


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

Im sorry if i have annoyed anyone here. I am a 16 year old girl and have cared for my dog since i first had her when i was 13. I realise whilst i have been researching about breeding my dog that i should never have tried breeding Skye until i knew more about the process of breeding her, whelping the puppies and keeping money aside just incase there were any implications. In the future I am going to research more thoroughly about breeding dogs and I am certain 2 wait untill I know ALOT more about breeding before i introduce Skye to another stud. 

Thank you for all the help you have given me everyone


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

_*In the future I am going to research more thoroughly about breeding dogs and I am certain 2 wait untill I know ALOT more about breeding before i introduce Skye to another stud. 


I think that is truely for the best :thumbup:
Im in my forties and after much research and study have only just taken the step to have my first litter 

Just enjoy Skye and when the time comes to have a litter you will have learnt as much as possible, and you can come here in the future & leave "Im gobsmacked" messages to those who haven't educated themselves  

give Skye big {{{hugs}}}*_


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Im sorry if i have annoyed anyone here. I am a 16 year old girl and have cared for my dog since i first had her when i was 13. I realise whilst i have been researching about breeding my dog that i should never have tried breeding Skye until i knew more about the process of breeding her, whelping the puppies and keeping money aside just incase there were any implications. In the future I am going to research more thoroughly about breeding dogs and I am certain 2 wait untill I know ALOT more about breeding before i introduce Skye to another stud.
> 
> Thank you for all the help you have given me everyone


well done you for listening - if all peeps were like you we would be living in a much better world.


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## emmisoli (Mar 30, 2009)

are your parents not helping you then?? do they agree with what you are doing?? surely if you are only 16 you should have some sort of guidance from somewhere.....I'm not trying to get at you hun, but there is alot to learn and alot of things can go wrong with the whelping (not sure what breed you have??) but it isn't always straight forward  Good luck with doing a bit more research and hopefully you will learn when the right time is and find the right stud dog to compliment your bitch perfectly....this can often take a few years of researching pedigrees etc. Get yourself to some shows and see which lines look good and are placed well and work from this.


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## candysmum (Jan 18, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Im sorry if i have annoyed anyone here. I am a 16 year old girl and have cared for my dog since i first had her when i was 13. I realise whilst i have been researching about breeding my dog that i should never have tried breeding Skye until i knew more about the process of breeding her, whelping the puppies and keeping money aside just incase there were any implications. In the future I am going to research more thoroughly about breeding dogs and I am certain 2 wait untill I know ALOT more about breeding before i introduce Skye to another stud.
> 
> Thank you for all the help you have given me everyone


You haven't annoyed anyone at all hun. we are all here to help educate. sadly a lot of people go into these with their eyes closed and wonder why it all went wrong. Its hard work and costs a small fortune. at 16 i do thin kyou should wait a few years to get your life headed where you want to go and then worry about maybe having a littler but when and IF you decide you need a lot of research and we will be here there to help answer questions.

I'm proud you listened to us all and i hope we didn't come across to strongly.

Give skye a good rub and enjoy her. x


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

Good on her - maybe she aint into being forceably bred...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Im sorry if i have annoyed anyone here. I am a 16 year old girl and have cared for my dog since i first had her when i was 13. I realise whilst i have been researching about breeding my dog that i should never have tried breeding Skye until i knew more about the process of breeding her, whelping the puppies and keeping money aside just incase there were any implications. In the future I am going to research more thoroughly about breeding dogs and I am certain 2 wait untill I know ALOT more about breeding before i introduce Skye to another stud.
> 
> Thank you for all the help you have given me everyone


Just to follow you up with this, if Skye is now three (going from your age) then it might be wise to think about having her spayed for her own health within the next couple of years. Entire bitches can be at risk from health problems later on in life, and unless you know you are going to have the time and money to dedicate towards planning and taking a litter, then you need to think about doing the best for Skye.

Bear in mind, unless you get specific insurance for breeding, you will definitely need to have the cash to hand in case of a large vet bill. The costs for health checking for a Labrador Retriever are at a minimum approx £250, and if you take the responsible route by testing for the recommended health checks, then you will pay over £400 in total. Setting up with all the equipment for whelping (box, vet bed, heat lamp, etc, etc) will set you back over £1,000. Breeding responsibly is certainly not a quick way to make money, more of a quick way to burn it 

Another thing to bear in mind is that there were over 55,000 Labrador Retriever pups registered with the KC last year (that figure does not include puppy farmers, back yard breeders etc who don't register their litters with the KC), you need to know you will be able to find good homes for all the pups. You may have a litter ranging from as little as one or two, to over ten pups, and should any problems arise with the new puppy owners, as a responsible breeder you need to be able to take those pups back.

I'm not sure why you want to breed, but the reason a lot of people state for breeding is that they want to get another dog/bitch just like theirs, unfortunately this is not how it works. The best way to get another dog just like yours, is to go back and buy from the same, or similar, breeding, and even then you are not at all guaranteed to get two peas in a pod. I have two half sisters, and they have their similarities, but also their differences.


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

Thanks everyone you have all been very helpful.:thumbup: 
My mum is helping me to research breeding dogs and I had a talk with her yesterday about what you have all helped me discover about breeding. I asked my mum if it was a good idea to breed Skye later rather than sooner and she agreed. We are now going to wait a few years untill we breed Skye and I am going to research eveything i possibly can about breeding dogs and helping with the whelping of the puppies before I actuallly do breed Skye. Also It will give me time to get alot more money together to put away so i can give Skye the best possible chance of having a successfull breeding when the time comes .
Thank you for all your help, il be sure to ask your some more questions about breeding and maybe you can help be gain as much knowledge as you know  

xx


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

just a quick thing,in a few years time skye will be too old for her first litter..,x


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just to follow you up with this, if Skye is now three (going from your age) then it might be wise to think about having her spayed for her own health within the next couple of years. Entire bitches can be at risk from health problems later on in life, and unless you know you are going to have the time and money to dedicate towards planning and taking a litter, then you need to think about doing the best for Skye.
> 
> Bear in mind, unless you get specific insurance for breeding, you will definitely need to have the cash to hand in case of a large vet bill. The costs for health checking for a Labrador Retriever are at a minimum approx £250, and if you take the responsible route by testing for the recommended health checks, then you will pay over £400 in total. Setting up with all the equipment for whelping (box, vet bed, heat lamp, etc, etc) will set you back over £1,000. Breeding responsibly is certainly not a quick way to make money, more of a quick way to burn it
> 
> ...


i agree with this post Rhi if you want to breed responsibly both dogs must have the relevant health tests, & i personally wouldnt breed a maiden bitch much later than 4yrs


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

oo ryt ok :/ seems like i have to make a decision then. Thank you. I think i will have a chat with my mum when she comes home from work and see what would be best. Do you think i should get her spayed or wait untill her next season which is around november to breed her?? Do you think we would have gained enough knowledge by then??


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## RRgirl (Apr 6, 2009)

Hi, sounds as though your being sensible and researching properly into it. can i ask a question? just wondering why you want to breed this litter? is skye a show or working dog who particularly excels at what she does? does she have anything to offer the breed in general. theres so many unwanted dogs just now, and i know of a lot of people who are struggling to sell puppies (and some of these are top breeders who show/work and health test all their dogs)
my aunt bred a litter last year, there was 6 puppies, and it ended up being a nightmare. people pulled out of her waiting lost, she ended up with 2 left, until they were almost 5months old, she was having to soclialise them, take them to puppy classes, eventually found homes for them, and has only 2 weeks ago got a puppy back as it has developed a mouth fault and it had been sold as show potential, shes now re-advertising her. its a lot of work, and heartache potentially.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

I understand that the third season is the best time to breed - that of course is assuming that the bitch is 2 years old or over!
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong anyone.
regards
DT


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

Sorry but I haven't read the whole thread, and I don't want to come across as patronising, but at 16 years old do you really think you are ready to raise a litter of puppies? I know I certainly wasn't at that age. I am 30 now and have been researching breeding for just under 2 years. I hope to eventually breed in the future, but as neither of my current dogs are excellent specimens of their breed I will have to wait until I am in a better postition to start looking for that "perfect" puppy to hopefully breed from in time, so I know that is many years off for me, and gives me plenty of time to do all the research I can.

Is Skye hip scored? Something which is essesntial in the Lab breed with their history of Hip Dysplasia

What happens if Skye has a huge litter, or rejects her puppies, or the very worst happens and she dies during welping? Are you in a position to hand rear the pups, feeding them every couple of hours, 24 hours a day? Can you cope with the possibilty of loseing some pups? Will you be able to offer prospective owners a life time of support for any puppies that are born? Including in the unfortunate event that any puppies need a new home, at any point in their life time they can come back to you? Say your puppies all live to about 12 years old, can you hand on heart say you are still available if needed at the age of 28? I know my life drastically changed during those years, and I have friends that in those years now live in a completely different country so would be unable to help.

And finally, you only have to check the KC figures for Labradors born every year, they are consistantly on the top of the list with literally thousands registered every year, so there really is no shortage of labs about.

Sorry I don't sound enthusiastic, but I do think it all needs to be said. I have had exactly the same questions asked of me, and many more, by Dalmatian breeders I have been contacting in my research to one day breed Dals myself, so they really aren't unreasonable questions to anyone, at any age, considering breeding.


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## turkeylad (Mar 1, 2009)

cav said:


> all dogs are different
> i dont think it sounds like you have a clue what your doing
> think i would give breeding a miss


Good for you!!!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> oo ryt ok :/ seems like i have to make a decision then. Thank you. I think i will have a chat with my mum when she comes home from work and see what would be best. Do you think i should get her spayed or wait untill her next season which is around november to breed her?? Do you think we would have gained enough knowledge by then??


Personally, unless you can get the minimum health tests done - hip scoring and current clear eye certificate which needs to be valid at mating - as well as do the research AND buy in all you will need for whelping (including having cash put to one side for emergencies), then I would look to get Skye spayed midway between seasons, and put this one down to experience. The current clear eye certificate is the cheaper of those two btw, so the one most would recommend you get done first, if you decide to go ahead. If you don't health test, you have to ask yourself why go ahead when there are already so many breeders of Labrador Retrievers who do, and quite a few of those (including well known and reputable breeders) are thinking twice about breeding in the current credit crunch. And, you need to prepared to make the responsible decision should any health test results come back that mean your girl isn't suitable to be bred from.

If you're interested in breeding Labradors, or any breed, I would look to research it more thoroughly over the next few years, look at what you want to breed and why? Research lines that you like, and look to find someone experienced that will help mentor you. If you're interested in showing, or working dogs, then look into those different breeding lines, and see what you want from your foundation bitch, and where you want to go with her.

For me, I love my Chocolate Labs, and what have I got in Tau, my foundation bitch? I've got a very healthy girl, I've spent over £400 on health testing, that's hip and elbow scores, current clear eye cert, Centronuclear Myopathy and the only one I haven't paid for is the optigen PRA as she is clear by parentage ie both her parents were tested clear. I also love training and hope to work/compete with my Labradors, but unfortunately there ain't that many good proven working Chocolates out there, let alone good proven working Chocolate stud dogs; so this is something I hope to build on over several years, and my first litter(s) may not have any chocolate pups in them, but they will carry chocolate on to the next generation. I may make little or no impact on the Labrador Retriever breeding pool, but I have a good start and I have a direction to go in. That's something you will need to decide as well.


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

I have been asked these questions previously and the answer is I will be able to be here if anything goes wrong during the pregnancy or whelping. I am not breeding Skye on my own, i am merely researching breeding with my mother before we try again  i appreciate you asking me these questions and i know they are definately reseaonable questions to ask anyone who is thinking of breeding. My mother is 37 and is settled down into a comfortable situation in her life so she will be able to except any puppies that might be given back. I will not be going through the process of breeding Skye without my mother to help and guide me and without knowing all of the risks and responsibilities of having a successfull breeding. I plan on taking Skye to the vet asap to get her all the nessecary health checks she needs, even if i decide not to breed her.


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

1st Get yourself a mentor, someone who has been in the breed for a long time

2nd Research what health tests your bitch needs and get them done

3rd Stand back and consider is this what you really want, you know you could lose your bitch if things went wrong, why do you want her to have pups ? 

4th Make sure you have enough money put away for expensive vet bills if needed

5th Please understand its not all about cute fluffy puppies, could you take 2 3 weeks old pups to be PTS when you realise that they have a defect, they will be on their feet, eyes open and proper little puppies ? Not trying to scare you but this is what I've had to do 

If after all this it's something you still want to do then good luck


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> I have been asked these questions previously and the answer is I will be able to be here if anything goes wrong during the pregnancy or whelping. I am not breeding Skye on my own, i am merely researching breeding with my mother before we try again  i appreciate you asking me these questions and i know they are definately reseaonable questions to ask anyone who is thinking of breeding. My mother is 37 and is settled down into a comfortable situation in her life so she will be able to except any puppies that might be given back. I will not be going through the process of breeding Skye without my mother to help and guide me and without knowing all of the risks and responsibilities of having a successfull breeding. I plan on taking Skye to the vet asap to get her all the nessecary health checks she needs, even if i decide not to breed her.


Unless you're extremely lucky it is unlikely your vet will be able to carry out the test required for her to hold a current clear eye cert. You may have to travel quite some distance to one who does.

Also, as regards hip and elbow scoring, you can use your own vet, but if they are unsure of how to take the x-rays this can make a difference to the outcome of the scores awarded by the BVA after submitting them. I think they are on the verge of accepting digital plates, but am not sure how this works as mine were done the old fashioned way. And the appeal procedure isn't that easy.

You definitely need to find a mentor experienced in breeding, I wouldn't go it alone with just you and your Mum, and you also need to ensure that mentor has, or helps to find you the right stud dog - putting two dogs together and leaving them just isn't on, anything can and sometimes does happen.

Can I ask why you want to breed from Skye?


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

We want to breed from Skye as she is our family pet and we heard that it is good to let a bitch have a litter before you get her spayed as it keeps their good nature, also we believe that if we breed our dog it is possible that she will produce puppies that are as adorable and as loving as Skye and which would make whoever had the puppies as happy as we are with Skye. We are not breeding her for show purposes as she is not Kc Reg and we dont intend for the puppies to be Kc Reg either. We beleive Skye is a good representation of the Labrador breed and will produce quality puppies, although we are going to check with the vet first and go along with the idea of having an experienced labrador breeder as a mentor, if we do actually decide to breed Skye. If anyone has picked up on anything that i have said which could be of use for me, to help me make my decisions please feel free to comment


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

Right, It's a load of rubbish that it's good for a bitch to have a litter
Labradors are in the top dogs bred each year

I would say on what you've just said, get Skye spayed, sorry if it's not what you want to hear.

Enjoy her as a much loved pet, don't put her through it, you could end up losing her


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> We want to breed from Skye as she is our family pet and we heard that it is good to let a bitch have a litter before you get her spayed as it keeps their good nature, also we believe that if we breed our dog it is possible that she will produce puppies that are as adorable and as loving as Skye and which would make whoever had the puppies as happy as we are with Skye. We are not breeding her for show purposes as she is not Kc Reg and we dont intend for the puppies to be Kc Reg either. We beleive Skye is a good representation of the Labrador breed and will produce quality puppies, although we are going to check with the vet first and go along with the idea of having an experienced labrador breeder as a mentor, if we do actually decide to breed Skye. If anyone has picked up on anything that i have said which could be of use for me, to help me make my decisions please feel free to comment


To be quite honest I think it would be very wrong for you to breed from Skye, you don't need to breed from a bitch before they are spayed, as Rach posted, and you need to put Skye first. Putting her through the risks associated with whelping for that reason just aren't enough, add to that that you couldn't register any pups with the KC, whether or not you intend to, and you're going to be struggling to come up with any reason to go ahead. It isn't even worth the risk of the general anaesthetic required for her hips to be scored.

I said in one of my previous posts about the number of Labrador Retriever pups registered with the KC last year, over 55,000, that doesn't include unregistered litters, you can double that figure and end up with an astounding number of pups. There are thousands of good representatives of Labradors, but with an unregistered bitch you would be adding nothing to the Labrador Retriever gene pool. If you look at rescue organisations, they're full of the most popular breeds, usually labs and staffies.

Skye is obviously a much loved family pet, and you'd be doing her a disservice by breeding from her.

I went through the heart breaking decision of spaying my older bitch, after spending over £400 having her health checks done, but it was a decision where her health came first and I would do it again in a split second. Spaying does not alter their character, she is still the same rather large lap Labrador that she was before, you really ought to make the best decision for Skye in this instance, and have her spayed.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

RRgirl said:


> Hi, sounds as though your being sensible and researching properly into it. can i ask a question? just wondering why you want to breed this litter? is skye a show or working dog who particularly excels at what she does? does she have anything to offer the breed in general. theres so many unwanted dogs just now, and i know of a lot of people who are struggling to sell puppies (and some of these are top breeders who show/work and health test all their dogs)
> my aunt bred a litter last year, there was 6 puppies, and it ended up being a nightmare. people pulled out of her waiting lost, she ended up with 2 left, until they were almost 5months old, she was having to soclialise them, take them to puppy classes, eventually found homes for them, and has only 2 weeks ago got a puppy back as it has developed a mouth fault and it had been sold as show potential, shes now re-advertising her. its a lot of work, and heartache potentially.


this is exactly why breeding should never be taken lightly, i almost lost my bitch through complications things dont always go smoothly, if i were you i would get her spayed thats the healthiest thing for her


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## gillieworm (Jul 4, 2008)

246RhiH said:


> We want to breed from Skye as she is our family pet and we heard that it is good to let a bitch have a litter before you get her spayed as it keeps their good nature, also we believe that if we breed our dog it is possible that she will produce puppies that are as adorable and as loving as Skye and which would make whoever had the puppies as happy as we are with Skye. We are not breeding her for show purposes as she is not Kc Reg and we dont intend for the puppies to be Kc Reg either. We beleive Skye is a good representation of the Labrador breed and will produce quality puppies, although we are going to check with the vet first and go along with the idea of having an experienced labrador breeder as a mentor, if we do actually decide to breed Skye. If anyone has picked up on anything that i have said which could be of use for me, to help me make my decisions please feel free to comment


I'm sorry but absolutely everything you have said here is all the reasons why you should not breed Skye.

Spayed bitches do not need a litter first to keep their character :frown2: Some bitches have even been known to turn more aggressive after having puppies, so that argument is seriously flawed.

I also will never understand why anyone would want to breed from an unregistered pedigree dog :frown2:

Sleeping_Lion has written some top class posts in this thread, and is someone obviously very passionate about the Labrador Retriever breed, I would strongly suggest that you take their advice fully on board and abandon plans to breed with Skye. If you do want to breed in the future, and this is the breed for you, research a foundation *registerd* bitch and get a mentor. I for one think that Sleeping_Lion has done a wonderful job in offering you great advice whilst keeping a level head. I'm not sure I could have done the same if you were talking about the breed I am passionate about


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

I agree with members above. Also I think you would find it difficult to get a good Mentor of your Breed willing to advice you to breed from her. A vet cannot tell you if she is a good example you would also need health tests done especially hips and elbows which are expensive.
You cannot gaurantee all the pups will be like the Mum in looks or temperament and you also have the heartache of rehoming pups and maybe sowm returned to you. All this should be taken into consideration as well.
You are 16years of age. If the pups do not sell or are returned to you after so long it would be difficult to handle imo at your age.

ps Can I ask who belongs to the Stud dog you have been trying to mate her with?


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

*Gosh what wonderful reasons for Breeding from Skye
NOT!!

I don't want to sound impatient but please don't do this 

At 16 years of age you have your whole life a head of you to enjoy so many more things before having a litter of pups 

Go buy a puppy from a reputable breeder where they have spent years making sure your new bundle of fun is everything you could want and more 

Please don't add to the 100's of unregistered Epupz type ads. *


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

Hi everyone, this is Rhi's mum, just want to say a big thank you for the responsible breeders who have guided Rhi with some excellent advice. I have encouraged Rhi to research all aspects of breeding as I feel this was the only responsible way for her to learn just how difficult, costly and how much committment is involved in breeding and whelping.

However, I just wanted to say to those who have provided nothing but negative comments that we all learn by seeking advice from those we believe are experts but some of you have shown her the bad, snobbish side of breeding and that you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves for using bullying tactics. Just because my daughter came to you for advice doesn't give you the right to patronise or bully. I am proud that she has taken the sound advice from those that quite obviously love dogs and not those who are in it for the money or "status".

A special thank you to 'Candy's Mum' and 'Lily's Mum' for taking the time to explain and not just condemn someone who is just learning.

It saddens me that there are people out there who are allowed to breed for financial or status reasons and that they feel justified in believing these are the correct reasons for breeding, so I'll tell you that although Skye has no papers she really is a beautiful specimen of Labrador and although she has no papers (no she doesn't work, has no "special" qualities to justify" breeding her) it doesn't make her any less qualified to breed! 

But to those guys who put Rhi down for loving her dog and investigating what she feels is the best for her dog, are you sure you've got the right temperament to breed ?!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

I did not see anything patronizing in here but maybe I read wrong...

What worries me slightly to be honest is that the bitch had already been introduced to a stud three times... what if it had worked?? cannot help finding that a little irresponsible although I would not blame a 16 years old too much on that.......

But cleary at this stage thumbs up to Rhih for listening to people's advice and wanting to research things thoroughly!!!
It is great to know you only want the best for your bitch, great owner !

xx


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Hi Rhi's mum, I'm glad you have come on to the forum and it's great that you have encouraged her to research and learn about breeding. As for critising those who have not been 'positive' in their answers, we can only reply to what is posted. According to your daughter's first post, three attempted matings have already taken place - no health tests have been done and little research has been done. If as you say, you have encouraged her to learn before doing anything, are you aware of this? As for dog without papers being suitable for breeding, I'm afraid you are wrong and it has nothing to do with snobbery or any other reason you assume. Without papers you cannot check health test records of parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc and siblings. All of this is necessary if you are to breed responsibly and breed health animals. I do appreciate that you and your daughter adore Skye, however I'm not sure how you can say she is a beautiful specimen of a labrador without any knowledge about the breed (and both yours and your daughter's posts show you have no special knowledge).

I would just add that it is a complete myth that a bitch needs a litter - on the contrary having a litter puts a bitch under great strain and at risk. Breeding a litter is far more risky than human pregnancy and it would be foolish to go through with this without realising the cost, not just to Skye, but to your purse. An experienced breeder friend recently nearly lost her bitch during whelping. She lost 5 puppies of the 8 puppies and it cost her over £3,000 in vet fees.


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## trekkiemo (Nov 8, 2008)

Sorry I have came in late in this thread,been busy with new puppy.

I am a person owned by labradors and we that breed this wonderful breed strive to produce healthy KC registered puppies from BVA health tested parents,granted health is not all we look at in choosing to breed,temperment is very important.
Your girl Skye is unregistered and its best for her not to be bred from for many reasons ,other members have pointed this out so I won`t repeat.
Enjoy your dog she will miss nothing from not having a litter.
I BVA Heath tested one of my girls and she has 1/2 hip score 0-0 elbows and clear eyes but decided a litter was not good for her.She is as happy as all my other girls.


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## Insane (Apr 19, 2008)

Hi - I haven't come on here to judge you. I am sure you will do what is right for your dog.

I just wanted to tell you about a meeting I had with a labrador and its family while at the vets last week.

They brought there bitch in with one of the pups while I was in there waiting to pick my dog up after his treatment. The week old pup had something wrong with its eye and the mother looked quite depressed. The man with them told me that the bitch had got an infection two days after having given birth to seven pups. They had gone into her in the morning to find one of the pups dead and all of the skin peeling away on her teets. Since then they had had to keep her away from the pups and hand fed them, the poor man had obviously had no sleep since and he said how horrible it had been to find the pup dead and now he was worried about the one with the bad eye on top of his beloved bitch being unwell too. He said he would never do it again, he would have rather had just gone out and brought a new puppy than put his bitch and family through this. We did not even get around to discussing the money it was probably costing, vet bills, being unable to work etc.

You always hear of stories of things that can go wrong but this poor family's bad experience certainly made me think. I am sure you have already considered what can go wrong but I just thought about these people when I read through this thread. Good luck with your decisions.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Hi everyone, this is Rhi's mum, just want to say a big thank you for the responsible breeders who have guided Rhi with some excellent advice. I have encouraged Rhi to research all aspects of breeding as I feel this was the only responsible way for her to learn just how difficult, costly and how much committment is involved in breeding and whelping.
> 
> However, I just wanted to say to those who have provided nothing but negative comments that we all learn by seeking advice from those we believe are experts but some of you have shown her the bad, snobbish side of breeding and that you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves for using bullying tactics. Just because my daughter came to you for advice doesn't give you the right to patronise or bully. I am proud that she has taken the sound advice from those that quite obviously love dogs and not those who are in it for the money or "status".
> 
> ...


I think it saddens anyone on this forum, from what I've seen (although I'm fairly new), if people breed for financial or status reasons, and people on here are passionate about their dogs. It does worry me too that the stud dog had been introduced three times before anyone thought to seek advice, but thankfully they did.

But what is also saddening is that people want to breed because their dog is a lovely pet; I've worn my heart on my sleeve in my posts, the Labrador Retriever is a fabulous breed, one of the most diverse around. I am passionate about my dogs, but will always make the right decision by them, after having researched thoroughly, you can't ask for more than that.

What worries me too is that somewhere along the line you've been given the wrong advice about breeding out of a bitch before spaying, it just isn't necessary, despite what you've been told. I hope I haven't put Rhi down for loving her dog, I've endeavoured to explain just why breeding from Skye wouldn't be putting her best interests first; what better way to show you love your dog than putting their best interests first? I stand by the advice I gave, and would still suggest that you spay Skye, and if Rhi is still interested in breeding hopefully she will have time to look into this in years to come as I've suggested.

Just one more note of caution, if Skye isn't KC registered, and her parents are unlikely to have had any health testing, you really don't know what problems you might be bringing into the world. I know of heart breaking cases of pups with hip dysplaysia so severe they need operating on before a year old. You need to be sure you won't be bringing any such problems into a litter, I've researched the health testing for my bitch right back to the fifth and sixth generation, you won't be able to do that.


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Deleted.

Im not trying to be bullish with your daughter and I think its great that she cares so much about her dog, but she also needs the right advice and sometimes its not what we all wish to hear :sad:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

246RhiH said:


> Hi everyone, this is Rhi's mum, just want to say a big thank you for the responsible breeders who have guided Rhi with some excellent advice. I have encouraged Rhi to research all aspects of breeding as I feel this was the only responsible way for her to learn just how difficult, costly and how much committment is involved in breeding and whelping.
> 
> However, I just wanted to say to those who have provided nothing but negative comments that we all learn by seeking advice from those we believe are experts but some of you have shown her the bad, snobbish side of breeding and that you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves for using bullying tactics. Just because my daughter came to you for advice doesn't give you the right to patronise or bully. I am proud that she has taken the sound advice from those that quite obviously love dogs and not those who are in it for the money or "status".
> 
> ...


IMO You should have told your daughter to research all aspects BEFORE attempting to mate Skye.Watching a Dog attempt to mate a Bitch 3times does not give you experience.
I do not see anywhere on this thread that a member has said that Skye is not a much loved Pet.
I do not know your Bitch so I do not know if she is a good example. A Good Mentor would be able to assist and thats why I posted that info. 
Your daughter at 16years old is imo slightly confused( not in a bad way) as she had already posted she would not try and mate her again until she has researched etc... then a few posts later changed her mind!!!!!!
Rather than have a go at the posters I think you both should sit down together and decide what you want to do as you will do that anyway going by your replies.


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

Rather than have a go at the posters I think you both should sit down together and decide what you want to do as you will do that anyway going by your replies

*Totally agree *


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

Please don't leave the forum, there are a lot of helpful people on here and you will get a lot of advice

The majority of the people who posted on here were helpful and caring breeders that want the best for dogs and between them, have many years of experience

Rach x


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

clueless said:


> Thats a bit harsh IMO Its a Public Open Forum, opinions are opinions just as your wife and now yourself have posted. I always say Forums are all different. For your wife to post that members are posting that your daughter did not care or love her Pet was Fabrication and may have annoyed a few people who gave advice on what info they had been given only


Not often I disagree with you  but there have been a few harsh posts on this thread, it just scares people away, and we (collective) have lost the chance to help/advise


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Rach said:


> Not often I disagree with you  but there have been a few harsh posts on this thread, it just scares people away, and we (collective) have lost the chance to help/advise


Sorry Rach you disagree but I get so annoyed when Newbies come on get advice then come back with being hard done to etc... IMO There was no harsh posts until the Mum came on 
I will go back and read again though


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Dear Rhi's Dad. There has been plenty of good and useful information given on this forum to your daughter and your wife/partner. Sadly your wife and yourself seem to have focussed on the negative. I have no idea why and can only hope that you have taken on board the helpful, even if it is not what you want to hear. 

Breeding dogs is completely different to human pregnancy. I have already mentioned that from a safety point of view. In the same way it is wrong to compare the two as you infer small and fluffy has done, it is equally wrong to compare a human's need to have children and the safe and uneventful way most women give birth thanks to modern medicine with a bitch's maternal needs (they don't have them) and the very real risks associated with canine whelping.


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

clueless said:


> Sorry Rach you disagree but I get so annoyed when Newbies come on get advice then come back with being hard done to etc... IMO There was no harsh posts until the Mum came on
> I will go back and read again though


We need to remember the OP is 16 and I'm sorry but  on threads is just not on

Believe me I am with you on the newbies getting advice and ignoring but just think one or 2 posts were not on, especially as the OP is only 16


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

It went from this


246RhiH said:


> Im sorry if i have annoyed anyone here. I am a 16 year old girl and have cared for my dog since i first had her when i was 13. I realise whilst i have been researching about breeding my dog that i should never have tried breeding Skye until i knew more about the process of breeding her, whelping the puppies and keeping money aside just incase there were any implications. In the future I am going to research more thoroughly about breeding dogs and I am certain 2 wait untill I know ALOT more about breeding before i introduce Skye to another stud.
> 
> Thank you for all the help you have given me everyone


To this



246RhiH said:


> Thanks everyone you have all been very helpful.:thumbup:
> My mum is helping me to research breeding dogs and I had a talk with her yesterday about what you have all helped me discover about breeding. I asked my mum if it was a good idea to breed Skye later rather than sooner and she agreed. We are now going to wait a few years untill we breed Skye and I am going to research eveything i possibly can about breeding dogs and helping with the whelping of the puppies before I actuallly do breed Skye. Also It will give me time to get alot more money together to put away so i can give Skye the best possible chance of having a successfull breeding when the time comes .
> Thank you for all your help, il be sure to ask your some more questions about breeding and maybe you can help be gain as much knowledge as you know
> 
> xx


To this and thats when I got confused as imo no harshness between



246RhiH said:


> Hi everyone, this is Rhi's mum, just want to say a big thank you for the responsible breeders who have guided Rhi with some excellent advice. I have encouraged Rhi to research all aspects of breeding as I feel this was the only responsible way for her to learn just how difficult, costly and how much committment is involved in breeding and whelping.
> 
> However, I just wanted to say to those who have provided nothing but negative comments that we all learn by seeking advice from those we believe are experts but some of you have shown her the bad, snobbish side of breeding and that you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves for using bullying tactics. Just because my daughter came to you for advice doesn't give you the right to patronise or bully. I am proud that she has taken the sound advice from those that quite obviously love dogs and not those who are in it for the money or "status".
> 
> ...


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Dear Rhi's Dad. There has been plenty of good and useful information given on this forum to your daughter and your wife/partner. Sadly your wife and yourself seem to have focussed on the negative. I have no idea why and can only hope that you have taken on board the helpful, even if it is not what you want to hear.
> 
> Breeding dogs is completely different to human pregnancy. I have already mentioned that from a safety point of view. In the same way it is wrong to compare the two as you infer small and fluffy has done, it is equally wrong to compare a human's need to have children and the safe and uneventful way most women give birth thanks to modern medicine with a bitch's maternal needs (they don't have them) and the very real risks associated with canine whelping.


I agree with this, and hope they can come back and read all the good advice they were given


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

*Hi RhiH dad

I love my dogs as much as my children & grandchildren, all there health & wellbeing is of equal importance.

I also have a severely disabled adult child. So don't talk to me about nazi eugenics.

Just as I want the best for our childs future 
I wish the same for my dogs :001_wub:*

You do not know me but you see fit to be abusive, I have not been abusive.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Dear Small and not so fluffy! This is Rhi's dad. Being the parent of a disabled child i find your argument is callous and disgusting and reek's of Nazi eugenic's. How can you compare a dog to a human being. You will not have to worry about my daughter visiting this forum in the future. I find people as yourself, to be the lowest kind of human and i have taught my children ( including the one who is not as perfect as you would like) to avoid ignorant people with shallow attitudes! It is 2009 not 1939 ,you sad horrible woman. God help us, with people like you in the world.


Wow!
Attitude,
Members are only trying to help here and give good solid advice.
Ignorant people are those who think it's perfectly acceptable to breed from pets and unregistered dogs despite been given good advice.

I also have a disabled child - I don't take offence,why should you ?
And we definatly don't need the personal attacks do we ?
Now did you come here for advice and to learn or just insult and snub the advice offered ?


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

Hey its Rhi again. I just thought i would let you all know that i have made a definate and absolute FINAL decision to follow your advice and get Skye spayed. I would like to thank you ALL even those in which gave slightly harsh facts for supplying me with the information that you did. 
I do believe that it will be the best for Skye as she will not be missing out on anything and will be able to carry on living her happy normal life .


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Dear Small and not so fluffy! This is Rhi's dad. Being the parent of a disabled child i find your argument is callous and disgusting and reek's of Nazi eugenic's. How can you compare a dog to a human being. You will not have to worry about my daughter visiting this forum in the future. I find people as yourself, to be the lowest kind of human and i have taught my children ( including the one who is not as perfect as you would like) to avoid ignorant people with shallow attitudes! It is 2009 not 1939 ,you sad horrible woman. God help us, with people like you in the world.


Think you have a problem mate!
Head up ar*e springs to mind!


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

246RhiH said:


> Hey its Rhi again. I just thought i would let you all know that i have made a definate and absolute FINAL decision to follow your advice and get Skye spayed. I would like to thank you ALL even those in which gave slightly harsh facts for supplying me with the information that you did.
> I do believe that it will be the best for Skye as she will not be missing out on anything and will be able to carry on living her happy normal life .


Great, well done on making the right decision and being adult enough to take good advice

Hope you stick around


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Think you have a problem mate!
> Head up ar*e springs to mind!


or a multiple personality


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

wondering if this is a wind up


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

Lily's Mum said:


> wondering if this is a wind up


It crossed my mind too


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Lily's Mum said:


> wondering if this is a wind up


Sounds like it Maybe another thread should be closed LOL


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

Might as well be closed -seems it has reached full circle lol


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

I sent my last post before i read the above posts and i must admit i am slightly offended 'Rach' i know i am 'only 16' but i belive i am quite mature for my age and I believe I have handled the comments and advice in a mature manner. Im not sure whether you said the above comment intentionally to offend me or not. If not then i aplogize for taking it further.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Lily's Mum said:


> Might as well be closed -seems it has reached full circle lol


Seemed that way the first time then it all kicked off again with the Relatives


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## Lily's Mum (Jan 22, 2009)

clueless said:


> Seemed that way the first time then it all kicked off again with the Relatives


me wondering if there are 'relatives', like dundee said 'multiple personalities'


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

just wondering what do you mean by wind up??


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

246RhiH said:


> I sent my last post before i read the above posts and i must admit i am slightly offended 'Rach' i know i am 'only 16' but i belive i am quite mature for my age and I believe I have handled the comments and advice in a mature manner. Im not sure whether you said the above comment intentionally to offend me or not. If not then i aplogize for taking it further.


LOL I give up !!


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## Small~Fluffy (Mar 13, 2009)

_Im also feeling offended that my post caused such a abusive response.
And for some to defend a abusive response.

I did not mean to cause any offense:sad:

Just tryed to show things from a different prospective, I would not wish a disabled child on anyone but nor would I wish a dog not to be bred from without knowing the "what ifs"

Think my time here is done.

Good Luck to all who have pups due or already here._


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

No - the posts have been written by different people!


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

LOL Rach Reach for that 3rd row go on LOL I know ya want to, I very dare you LOL


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## 246RhiH (Apr 5, 2009)

Ok yes i do see where you are all coming from now. To be honest i have more important things to do with my time than to sit here and make up family members. I came onto this site genuinely to ask a query about breeding my dog and i have taken your advice. I am now going to leave the forum as I have learnt what i needed to know and i dont need to continue sitting here listening to you discuss whether or not i have a multiple personality disorder! I have done nothing but accept your advice and try to understand and take on board every1s opinion and now you criticise me for doing this! Thanks but no thanks.


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## Rach (Sep 4, 2008)

clueless said:


> LOL Rach Reach for that 3rd row go on LOL I know ya want to, I very dare you LOL


Arghh don't tempt me..........


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

246RhiH said:


> Ok yes i do see where you are all coming from now. To be honest i have more important things to do with my time than to sit here and make up family members. I came onto this site genuinely to ask a query about breeding my dog and i have taken your advice. I am now going to leave the forum as I have learnt what i needed to know and i dont need to continue sitting here listening to you discuss whether or not i have a multiple personality disorder! I have done nothing but accept your advice and try to understand and take on board every1s opinion and now you criticise me for doing this! Thanks but no thanks.


I think many of us will agree that you have been 'very adult' regarding this, everything seemed to have been sorted out! Then Daddy put his spoke in!!!
It is actually against forum rules to allow you account to be used by other people I believe.

All the best, shame you can't stay, but don't think the excess baggage is welcome somehow
regards
DT


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> I think many of us will agree that you have been 'very adult' regarding this, everything seemed to have been sorted out! Then Daddy put his spoke in!!!
> It is actually against forum rules to allow you account to be used by other people I believe.
> 
> All the best, shame you can't stay, but don't think the excess baggage is welcome somehow
> ...


Very well said DT I agree


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## 3 red dogs (May 17, 2008)

OK going to close this thread, i might open it again when i have Severely edited it.. 
come on guys, we are all here because we love our pets, not to take chunks out of each other!


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