# FAO breeders - socialising and habituating kittens



## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

The primary socialisation and habituation window in kittens is over by around 7-9 weeks, which is before the kittens leave their mothers and go to their new homes.

What do you do to socialise and habituate your kittens while they're still with you?


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## Cosmills (Oct 3, 2012)

Mine don't leave mum until 13 weeks .... Kittens are within the family from day one , played and introduced to new people and other pets ... 

They leave well balanced and bomb proof


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> What do you do to socialise and habituate your kittens while they're still with you?


It's an interesting question as I don't feel I 'do' anything in particular. Decades of breeding means I've lost touch with what anyone might consider socialising and habituating because it's just normal life to us.

What sort of things did you have in mind?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Shoshannah said:


> What do you do to socialise and habituate your kittens while they're still with you?


Nothing special really. If you can't resist picking up, fussing, playing with, cuddling, etc, etc, kittens then it's job done  I suppose the only things I make a conscious effort with is to make sure the kittens are 'in the thick of it' from a young age and are exposed to all the usual household noise, people coming and going and visitors picking them up and playing with them etc. But again, considering virtually anyone who visits my home is a cat lover that isn't a difficult chore either!


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Once their eyes are open and ears standing up I hold them for longer and longer. That's about the start of the sensitive period, no point in cuddling before then. I always put them down if they start to agitate. I also introduce toys, try to get friends round, and once they are 5 weeks or so they start to meet my other cats.

It's a quiet house here, just me, and I have to work so I can't gaze at kittens all day. However I take my breaks with them and oddly I need more when I have kittens!

I guess I also call them when I feed them, and by the time my last set of fosters left they would come thundering when food was in the offing.


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## wicket (Aug 22, 2012)

Same as the others really - its lovely when they all come thundering for food when called - mine arent allowed upstairs so I do bring a hairdryer down so they get used to the noise of that, otherwise they are just well handled and part of a busy house full of teenage boys


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

Our kittens are in the kittening room until leaving home, their Mum is with them most of that time if she is happy to be. Some Queens like to leave them for longer after they are between 6 and 8 weeks old. 
As there is only me and my husband here we handle them, cuddle them and play with them every day, we spend a lot of time in their room with them. Our family doesn't live close and the only visitors we have are my son and daughters when they can, we don't get to see them every week, usually every 8 weeks for my two eldest and once every 3 or 4 months for my two youngest,so when they do visit we let them see and handle the kittens too, our grandchildren are allowed to handle them under supervision but we wouldn't turn our back for a second as they are all pre school age. 
Once our kittens leave for their new homes they are sociable and are used to being handled etc. We dont often let them mingle with our other cats as some of our cats can be a little hissy and I don't want to upset either the kittens before leaving home or our adult cats. If the new owners have exisiting cats they have plenty of time to introduce them to theirs in good time but I don't see why they need to be introduced to ours if it upsets any of them.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

As well as what most other people do, mum does a lot of work in teaching them manners at this point, telling them off and giving them a smack or even hissing at them, then calling them back to wash them and say sorry! :laugh: :001_tt1: They just seem to learn so much more and grow a lot, sooo confident as well! :001_tt1:


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm kind of in Havoc's ball park here, in that it's hard to say what we do as it just comes as second nature. I handle my kittens from day one, holding them and surrounding them with my hands near the safe smell of their mum so that they learn to associate human smell with safety and good things. Mum normally positively encourages this as I have a good bond with all of my girls. By two weeks, although they can still hardly see, they are rolling over for a gentle belly tickle, sometimes even younger than that. They begin grooming practice as soon as their coats start to come in, and this happens every day until they leave me at 14 weeks. Other than that, I can't think of anything specific. They are kissed, cuddled, picked up, carried, scoulded and loved just like the rest of the gang. They sleep in my bed, they sit on the sofas. In short, they're treated like one of the family. Visitors are positively encouraged to play with them, and I let children of all ages handle them as long as they're gentle. I have the most lovely memory of my last keeper the first time she was introduced to a child. It was a 2 month old baby (mum was Ok with it of course). But this tiny little 12 week old kitten went up to her, patted her on the face, then snuggled down beside her and they both went for a sleep. This kitten had never seen such a small child before, but because she had learned even before she could see and hear that humans equal good things, she wasn't phased by it at all.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> They are kissed, cuddled, picked up, carried, scoulded and loved just like the rest of the gang. They sleep in my bed, they sit on the sofas. In short, they're treated like one of the family.


Sums it up perfectly for me. I do have a kitten room where the mum gives birth and they do stay in there for a few weeks. It's a spare bedroom and I sleep in there for a couple of weeks pre and post birth. Gradually they choose to venture further and it's always a great moment when the first intrepid explorer makes it all the way downstairs at around 4 weeks. I can't put my finger on when they are fed in the kitchen rather than the kitten room because it's determined by the least adventurous in any litter but I suppose it does mark the point they are fully integrated into the household. Nothing is forced, it's up to them.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Mine are born in my bedroom and handled from birth, then raised in the lounge room so they're used to all household noises.

Don't think I do anything special, but it's apparently working. Kittens leave and confidently strut into their new home and take over, no hiding or shyness.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

That's it for me too HAvoc, but again, mum dictates a lot of it. If she's happy in the bedroom, then she stays there until kittens start to wean. If she wants to come with me and keep me in sight, then I set up a living room pen so that she can have her wish. I do keep kittens penned until they're litter trained, but that's just from a management point of view for me, as I'd never find kitten wees and poos when they're so tiny. They normally start roaming at 5-6 weeks.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I have been very lucky in that my kittens seem to wean and litter train very quickly. They don't go from kitten room to roaming all over the house in one go, they first venture a little out of the kitten room onto the landing, then a stair or two until the first one makes it all the way down. The kitten room is still home ground for them during this period.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Shoshannah said:


> The primary socialisation and habituation window in kittens is over by around 7-9 weeks, which is before the kittens leave their mothers and go to their new homes.
> 
> What do you do to socialise and habituate your kittens while they're still with you?


kittens are born in my bedroom and are handled from day one by me. Mum always decides when they are ready to come down - usually around 3-4 weeks. From then on they are played with by family and meet the other cats. They aren't kept separate from the other cats before this but I've noticed that the others don't really pay that much attention (except for one queen I had who used to steal them)
Once they are old enough to play they are introduced to various toys and to people too. My grandchildren enjoy visiting for playtimes. Kittens have the run of the house and are used to all of the noises of everyday life. Mum and other cats teach them their manners too - I think this is a stage that those who have moggy litters will often say that the mum hates her kittens and thus they are ready to be rehomed . To me that is one of the most important aspects of kitten socialisation.
I've not heard from any buyer that they have a nervous kitten so I'm getting something right I think


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> If she's happy in the bedroom, then she stays there until kittens start to wean. If she wants to come with me and keep me in sight


My queens have free run of the house throughout. For the first few days they hardly (if at all) leave the nest but as time goes on they seem to enjoy a break. Sometimes a girl will be a real earth mother and hardly leave the room and sometimes one will work a strict routine. They're all different and I work with their instincts. I've always worked it so I only ever have one litter at a time so flexibility is easy.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Again, I'm sort of in your camp. I will pen my girls unless they ask to come out, but I don't give them free access to and from the pen as I'm terrified that they'll move kittens. Again, not a big problem for someone with working peepers, but if they were quiet, I'd never find them, and while I don't mind them playing hide and seek when they're older and weaned, I can't have it when they're not self-sufficient. My girls know that if they ask, I will open the door for them so they can have a break, then they can ask when they're ready to go back, so it's free access with supervision.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Again, not a big problem for someone with working peepers


Yes that would make a difference. Even with working peepers it's easy enough to lose the odd kitten temporarily


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> Even with working peepers it's easy enough to lose the odd kitten temporarily


... and to make a fool of yourself. I had a lovely family with three children here last Saturday. I gave a little speech about how they must all be very careful and perhaps best sit on the floor. Stepped back.... and you've guessed it


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

That did make me laugh. I think I'm the only one in this house who doesn't step on cats. They might get a nudge with a toe, but never stood on. But you can guarantee that every one of the little sods will get under my feet when I have people round. i once rolled a kitten over and over when he tried to leap on my foot just as I was taking a step... The visitors were a bit stunned, but the little ratbag thought it was a great game and came back for more!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> They might get a nudge with a toe, but never stood on.


Ah, the kitten shuffle. Works very well but does make it difficult to yell at teenagers to 'stop slouching and pick your feet up'


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

So, Shoshannah, what have you learnt apart from that we are all different as are our cats?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

gskinner123 said:


> ... and to make a fool of yourself. I had a lovely family with three children here last Saturday. I gave a little speech about how they must all be very careful and perhaps best sit on the floor. Stepped back.... and you've guessed it


My husband pins a note to the lounge door - Beware Kittens underfoot!
My mum, who has very little sight, doesn't like to visit when I have a litter of little ones running around just in case


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> So, Shoshannah, what have you learnt apart from that we are all different as are our cats?


I've learnt that many people have a kittening room, which I had never heard of before. 

And that most kittens have some interaction with children, which is good. 

And that kittens are easy to lose and/or tread on!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Oci's are too quick and upwardly mobile to be underfoot  and too cuddly and people orientated to loose, and their mums don't let them get lost.


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## peecee (Jun 28, 2010)

carly87 said:


> Again, not a big problem for someone with working peepers, but if they were quiet, I'd never find them, to go back, so it's free access with supervision.


Sorry if this seems a silly question,but what's working peepers?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

peecee said:


> Sorry if this seems a silly question,but what's working peepers?


Visual eyes.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sorry. I forget everyone doesn't know. Working peepers is working eyes. I'm blind, so mine don't.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And that most kittens have some interaction with children, which is good.


This is something which interested me as my own extended family grew up. I once had nieces and nephews who visited to interact with the kittens but they're all older now and it had concerned me so I was keeping a close eye. I can confirm that children are not a necessary part of the socialisation whereas the number of people kittens have contact with during the critical period is. As long as they have regular contact with *more than* two people then they are fine and their reaction to children is exactly the same as if they had been handled by kids from day one. This can be you and a succession of different visitors or you and any two others. What probably isn't good is a single, isolated breeder or a couple who don't have any visitors.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't have children in the house at all, but one of my kittens went to a home with two little girls and I've had photographic evidence that he is quite happy with them.

There is also just me in the house, but the kittens have all flourished in their new homes with new people.

I had thought about getting a small dog before starting breeding, but given the state of my left knee it's just as well I didn't. I wouldn't be able to walk a dog when it's bad.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

I did notice a difference with one litter born/raised at a point when my household went quiet. They weren't unsociable but they were not just as confident around the 4-5 week mark as previous litters so I 'busied' the house up with visitors. Even simple things like having the phone on speakerphone when you are taking a call means they are hearing other voices. I'm not so sure that things like the radio make all that much difference.

I'm not saying kittens without loads of human company are bad but I do think they're better the more people they see and even as few as three humans makes a difference.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

havoc said:


> What probably isn't good is a single, isolated breeder or a couple who don't have any visitors.


There is just the two of us here, we have had no problem at socialising the kittens and all our kittens have gone to new homes being very confident, we haven't had reports of any of them being shy yet...touchwood.

My family live miles away, we get a visit probably every 6/8 weeks from at least one of my daughters and her family, it is more difficult for my son as he doesn't drive but he visits when he can. My youngest daughter doesn't come as often as my eldest two. We always allow our grandchildren to handle the kittens when they do visit and the kittens are happy with them, we only ever allow children in to see them supervised by us though. So although we haven't a busy household our kittens are happy around people.

We have one girl who came from a breeder with a family at home and she is the most skitty, nervous cat we have, she is so wary of everything and everyone. So I really don't think it makes a difference whether kittens are brought up in a busy household or not, every cat grows up different, some more wary than others and some are totally in your face etc.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> <snip>
> What probably isn't good is a single, isolated breeder or a couple who don't have any visitors.


Gee thanks, you've just written of loads of good breeders who produce happy confident cats.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Do you seriously never have any visitors? I didn't write anyone off, I said I noticed a difference. Having noticed it I decided to do something about it. That litter wouldn't have been unsociable but I have no doubt they were even more confident because of the measures I took. I took advice from other experienced breeders and was happy to make changes. I could instead have become defensive and cited my decades of experience in raising kittens but I'd rather always strive to improve. They'd have been fine pets but I'd never have been happy knowing I could have done better.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I have to agree with Havoc on this though I actually wish I didn't! It's just two of us here, leading a fairly quiet life, family for one us is pretty non-existent and for the other, living several hundred miles away. We have few visitors, other than the very occasional friend of mine who might pop in through to it being a bit of a mad-house at weekends at times when I have kittens and we have visiting families.

My kittens are very confident, outgoing and friendly with the two of us (as you'd expect) but I definitely notice a difference, at all ages, when 'strangers' descend upon us and particularly when that includes a family group. However much I put into ensuring my kittens are confident and outgoing they are often initially very reluctant to be sociable with strangers. I have to tell people to be patient, wait a while and the kittens will come to them - invariably they do but it DOES take a while and there will often be one or two who will persistently hang back. This didn't happen when my (now grown up) children were young, including all their assorted little friends, friends' mothers, my family, etc, etc, were in and out of the house on a regular basis.

Not a lot I can do about the current situation other than drag people in off the street!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have to tell people to be patient, wait a while and the kittens will come to them


That's the difference I noticed, nothing more than a minute or so before the kittens chose to come to strangers. When my household is buzzing with activity any visitor is a human cat tree the instant they walk in the door. I can't always turn my house into Piccadilly Circus either but I can't deny the difference.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

havoc said:


> That's the difference I noticed, nothing more than a minute or so before the kittens chose to come to strangers. When my household is buzzing with activity any visitor is a human cat tree the instant they walk in the door. I can't always turn my house into Piccadilly Circus either but I can't deny the difference.


Must be frank and say that it's often way more than a minute or so before mine come around. I think that might be partially breed related; BSH can be very reserved. I imagine yours are affection tarts  You can visibly see with mine, if a stranger approaches them they often initially won't notice the difference, then they get a whiff of the hand that's stroking them and they catch a fright.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

Undoubtedly there are differences between breeds and yes, the foreign breeds are (or should be) particularly people friendly. If there hadn't been a change in my household I'd probably have thought that the way kittens were in a quiet household was the norm - and the best I could do. I know different 

The real irony is that I spent years looking forward to this peaceful time and now I know there was an upside to the chaos


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

sharonbee said:


> We have one girl who came from a breeder with a family at home and she is the most skitty, nervous cat we have, she is so wary of everything and everyone. So I really don't think it makes a difference whether kittens are brought up in a busy household or not, every cat grows up different, some more wary than others and some are totally in your face etc.


That's not uncommon among breeders I know, skittish cats bought from busy households or those with several children. Perhaps there's not enough time for the kittens?

I also know breeders who stopped breeding to raise the family and went back to it a decade or more later, and they have super smoochy, outgoing bubs being raised by a single person or couple.

So I don't think being a quiet house is a problem.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> So I don't think being a quiet house is a problem


Either environmental factors make a difference or they don't. If they don't then why bother to socialise young kittens at all?


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