# Staffordshire Bull Terrier Breeding, The Right Way.



## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi all

Many of you know that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is my breed. I am very passionate about them and they are my life.

I foster for many rescues and also do admin for a local rescue that I have been involved with for years.

I hope I'm not going to get shot down for this thread, as I hope it to be a valuable resource for anyone thinking of breeding their SBT.

This decision hasn't come lightly and I have spent lots of time, going to shows, meeting people within my breed, reading books and researching on-line.

Everyday I see adverts on-line trying to sell their pet bred SBT and it sickens me. I wonder how long it will be before I see these dogs in rescue due to an unhealthy dog, ones that have been neglected and all sorts.

It isn't often I come across a well bred SBT.

I am doing this because I want to better my breed, I want to see healthy, fully health tested dogs, that have an excellent temperament and look like they are suppose too. I am also looking to keep back a bitch to go into showing with.

I am starting this thread as I hope someone will come across it and decide to spay their bitch, do it the right way, find a reputable breeder or go to rescue.

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My bitch is fully health tested that conforms with the breed council

She is hereditary clear for both HC and L2HGA. 
She is PPSC unaffected and holds a current certificate. £51 yearly
I am awaiting her results from her DNA profiling. £25 one off.
She is fully vaccinated, wormed and flea'd. 
She is KC registered and I know her 5 gen pedigree.

She is in great shape, beautiful condition.
She has a superb temperament with ALL animals and ALL humans.
She will be 2 in may, is fed a RAW diet and exercised daily.

She will be vaccinated against CHV1 twice during pregnancy. £84

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Pups will be KC reg with 5 gen ped. £23 each
screened at 6 weeks for PHPV. £10 each
Micro chipped. £8 each
flead and wormed.
weaned onto a RAW diet.
will follow the the early neurological stimulation programme
vet checked at least twice

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I will be updating this thread as things progress. x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

I need to come up with a kennel name. My first choice is Staffaddict. I cant think of any thing else. 

Any suggestions?

My first Staffie is called Kenzie.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm gonna Love this thread! (And Harte you for making me staffs broody!  )
Definitely go with staffaddict. That's awesome!!!


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't know, my friend breeds English Bull Terriers (in Finland) under the Undeniabull affix which is cool... maybe you could have something with that sort of a theme in like Enviabull or Insatiabull ?

Please can we have some pictures?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

I appreciate what you are doing but it doesn't sit well with me I'm afraid. 

I agree that minimal breeding needs to be done but I think that by publicising it on a forum you may encourage others to do it. 

You are obviously a very responsible person who does a lot for rescue but please consider the fact that you could inadvertently encourage the breeding of staffies.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I appreciate what you are doing but it doesn't sit well with me I'm afraid.
> 
> I agree that minimal breeding needs to be done but I think that by publicising it on a forum you may encourage others to do it.
> 
> You are obviously a very responsible person who does a lot for rescue but please consider the fact that you could inadvertently encourage the breeding of staffies.


But surely highlighting what it costs would encourage less than a 'whoops' staff litter- which we see all too often. Others post progress threads all the time, I can't see a problem with this one... Or is it just because its Sbt? Labs are spilling out of rescues too- should swarthy etc stop mentioning their litters?

(Sorry if it sound like I'm having a go- but I'm genuinely curious)


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

kodakkuki said:


> But surely highlighting what it costs would encourage less than a 'whoops' staff litter- which we see all too often. Others post progress threads all the time, I can't see a problem with this one... Or is it just because its Sbt? Labs are spilling out of rescues too- should swarthy etc stop mentioning their litters?
> 
> (Sorry if it sound like I'm having a go- but I'm genuinely curious)


It's because it is staffies and I fear that others may join in.

Labs are not in the crisis that staffies are

The last count there are approx 68 staffies PTS every day due to their numbers.

Breeding staffies goes against all I believe in. Whilst I agree that we need minimal breeding, I just disagree with it being on a public forum


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> It's because it is staffies and I fear that others may join in.
> 
> Labs are not in the crisis that staffies are
> 
> ...


Ah, i see; and get your point- and agree to a degree. although i still think we need to promote the ethics of this breed as much as any others- maybe more.
Here there soo many Labradors are (and it seems JRT and GSD as well atm) our in shelters. it seems they are as common as staffs in pounds and many shelters and the most common staff mix is labXstaff.
Now many of the staffs that are in shelters will end up staying there a lot longer than many breeds, so for eg while 5 individual staffs are there a year 5 other kennels could go through maybe two if not more dogs each, an it seems nearly half those are labs... So even though every time I go in and count the numbers of the breeds there will always be those 5 staffs, but 10 other dogs of the most common breeds have came and went in that time, so they are having I come from somewhere. I've noticed a few shelters have started to only have a certain number of Sbt in at any time because there just isn't the adoptablity with them as with the others pouring in- which I heartbreaking because its mostly because of the completely unfounded media hype.

That's just what I've noticed when visiting the shelters etc of course, not any actual figures etc.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> It's because it is staffies and I fear that others may join in.
> 
> Labs are not in the crisis that staffies are
> 
> ...


I agree with much of what you say. I would however just note that while Labs are not 'in crisis', they ARE being PTS. I have personally helped to find homes for a few very young ex breeding Labs whose time in the pound was up and who were set to be PTS.

There are also numerous Labs in breed specific rescues across the UK.

*TO THE OP:*

I am a *big* Staffie fan. However with so many of these lovely dogs being killed, I really don't understand the decision to bring yet more of the breed into the world.

Even with all the care that you will, I'm sure, put into the breeding, once the pups leave your care there is NO guarantee what will happen. I just hate to think of even one more Staffie pup ending up in rescue and heaven forfend, being PTS.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I agree with much of what you say. I would however just note that while Labs are not 'in crisis', they ARE being PTS. I have personally helped to find homes for a few very young ex breeding Labs whose time in the pound was up and who were set to be PTS.
> 
> There are also numerous Labs in breed specific rescues across the UK.
> 
> .


I'm surprised at this but thanks for sharing x


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## miti999 (Mar 19, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I'm surprised at this but thanks for sharing x


Yeah I'm surprised too.

Also didn't know we had dog pounds?


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## lotlot (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm in two minds about this. I think it's certainly admirable that you want to do things right for the breed. But there are just so many staffs needing homes. With so many in rescues, could you justify adding more to the breed? Could you guarantee homes for all pups? I can see that you're trying to do the right thing


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> I'm surprised at this but thanks for sharing x


Labs are still one of the most popular breeds, in fact I think this year in the UK they were the most popular. However, you tend to find a LOT end up in rescue when they are teenagers; people tend to underestimate both their strength and also the amount of attention and exercise they will need.

There are also a lot of dogs that come over from Ireland.


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## fluffybunny2001 (Feb 8, 2008)

whilst i admore you for all your research,to me,i think it`s wrong to bring anumore into this world.
You cannot garuntee that the homes those pups go to will be as responsible.
I work in rescue,our waiting list for staffies alone is 18mths!!
There is no reason for anyone to be breeding staffies,even doing it responsibly.
I couldn`t imagine having anything to do with breeding,whilst helping out/working for a rescue,it would feel very hypocritical.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

I agree with a lot of the comments that have been made. But at the same time, if some SBT's weren't being bred then the breed would die out. Or is that what people are hoping for?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

sharloid said:


> I agree with a lot of the comments that have been made. But at the same time, if some SBT's weren't being bred then the breed would die out. Or is that what people are hoping for?


I don't think anyone is hoping for that 

It's just that with soooo many Staffies being PTS, it seems to me at least counter-intuitive to bring more into the world - right now.


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## missnaomi (Jun 4, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I don't think anyone is hoping for that
> 
> It's just that with soooo many Staffies being PTS, it seems to me at least counter-intuitive to bring more into the world - right now.


On the other hand - if none were bred they would no longer exist in their (not sure if this is the right word) correct? form - it would be like only breeding from a random assortment of labs of indiscriminate breeding which may or may not be 100% lab and also which don't necessarily meet the breed charateristics and standards - wouldn't make for a healthy breed future.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

missnaomi said:


> I don't know, my friend breeds English Bull Terriers (in Finland) under the Undeniabull affix which is cool... maybe you could have something with that sort of a theme in like Enviabull or Insatiabull ?
> 
> Please can we have some pictures?


Thanks for the suggestions. there great especially liking Enviabull. 



Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I agree with much of what you say. I would however just note that while Labs are not 'in crisis', they ARE being PTS. I have personally helped to find homes for a few very young ex breeding Labs whose time in the pound was up and who were set to be PTS.
> 
> There are also numerous Labs in breed specific rescues across the UK.
> 
> ...


I understand your worries but believe me I will do EVERYTHING in my power to ensure my pups do NOT end up in rescue. I will be carrying out vigorous checks to ensure the very best of homes. They will also be micro-chipped in my name.

Please be assured that this hasn't been taken on lightly.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Most people know I'm all for rescues and neutering dogs. However, and I say this after a lot of thought, if "responsible" breeders of ANY breed stop, or feel they shouldn't breed because of the rescue situation, then we'd be left with poor specimens of all breeds, unhealthy pups and dogs and more unscrupulous people making, what they consider to be "easy money" without a care in the world for these puppies and dogs.

So whereas I'm no way a fan of breeders in any way shape or form, there is a place for responsible - good and ethical breeders.

If, as the OP has stated she has carried out all of the relevant health tests, if she has homes lined up, if she has done everything possible to ensure these puppies go off to their forever homes, then good luck to her. I'd just like to ask her what the rescue think of her plans to bring more Staffies into this world. It certainly wouldn't be an easy conversation between them I'm sure.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

There are too many dogs being bred, full stop, IMO 

I'm sure there are already some reputable SBT breeders taking care of the breed quality, so doubt there is any need for another one.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2013)

kiara said:


> I understand your worries but believe me I will do EVERYTHING in my power to ensure my pups do NOT end up in rescue. I will be carrying out vigorous checks to ensure the very best of homes. They will also be micro-chipped in my name.
> 
> Please be assured that this hasn't been taken on lightly.


take a look on champdogs and see how many litters are currently available many of which from breeders that have actively campaigned their dogs i've counted all staffordshire puppies currently available through champdogs and that's 125 puppies just from one website alone , from october last year through till now that's an awful lot of puppies already been born!! most of the breeders on there have done all the health testing they possibly can on their dogs and more. 
i suspect plenty more puppies will be readily available through the kennel club website.

i'd think very carefully your plans because although well intended don't appear to be very well thought out or thoroughly researched especially regarding already well bred pups currently available from breeders well established.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> There are too many dogs being bred, full stop, IMO


I agree with you there. The number of husky pups alone on preloved within 10 miles of me at this moment in time is horrific!


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## flosskins (Jan 27, 2010)

There are far too many staffies in rescue to consider breeding more unless you are breeding from the very best of champion stock to ensure the bloodlines of the best are continued to prevent any loss to the breed. If you are simply breeding from a nice health tested specimen with nothing extra to recommend it then I'm sorry but I think it is highly irresponsible. If there are people that want your puppies then surely it would be better for them to rescue an unwanted staffie pup instead and save its life?


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Personally, I have no issue with responsible, dedicated breeders producing excellent quality dogs.

There is a lot more to good breeding than health tests and temprament through.

You don't say we're you dog is from, was she purchased from a good breeder on a showing/breeding contract? Is she an excellent example of her breed, proven in the show ring? If not, she probably shouldn't be bred.

If she is not, I would look for an experienced mentor who will sell you a good quality foundation bitch and help you with all the stuf which takes experience. Picking pick of the litter, showing, medical emergencies, the mating, contracts, vetting homes ect.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Nagini said:


> take a look on champdogs and see how many litters are currently available many of which from breeders that have actively campaigned their dogs i've counted all staffordshire puppies currently available through champdogs and that's 125 puppies just from one website alone , from october last year through till now that's an awful lot of puppies already been born!! most of the breeders on there have done all the health testing they possibly can on their dogs and more.
> i suspect plenty more puppies will be readily available through the kennel club website.
> 
> i'd think very carefully your plans because although well intended don't appear to be very well thought out or thoroughly researched especially regarding already well bred pups currently available from breeders well established.


Good point! X


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Totally agree with what flosskins say's, a very good point.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

flosskins said:


> There are far too many staffies in rescue to consider breeding more unless you are breeding from the very best of champion stock to ensure the bloodlines of the best are continued to prevent any loss to the breed. If you are simply breeding from a nice health tested specimen with nothing extra to recommend it then I'm sorry but I think it is highly irresponsible. *If there are people that want your puppies then surely it would be better for them to rescue an unwanted staffie pup instead and save its life?*


Well said.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

after doing a bit of research on the kennel club , there's quite a few staffordshire puppies available from there too 119 in total. add that together with the numbers already on champdogs thats 244 puppies already been born currently advertised via reputable websites.
so , i really don't think there's need for anymore with whats already available out there and those numbers will rise significantly within the next few months due to reputable breeders expecting litters.

in 2011 there were 7,113 staffordshire bull terriers registered!!!!! probably followed by the same amount the following year , so , is there any need for any more?


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

Thanks for all your replies.

As for how many pups for sale, I went on one website and this is what i see, presuming each litter had 5 pups, all health tested;

G.Retriever 235 pups from *Dec 12*
L.Retriever *390* pups from *Dec 12*
GSD 185 pups from *Feb 13*
_SBT 195 pups from *Nov 12*_
Bullmastiff 70 pups from *Jan 13*
Rottweiler 75 pups from *Dec 12*

As for pointing people to rescue, not everyone wants to adopt a pup from rescue not knowing its genetic history.

My rescue is fully behind my decision as they know I do not take on things lightly. And can see all the hard work that is being put into this.

My bitch is from a good breeder and I have a fully experienced mentor along with a trained behaviourist on hand, that is willing to help future owners.

My bitches sire is CH, also 1st in UK in weight pulling, 8th USA.

She has 10 CH in her 5 gen ped.

The sire I have chosen has 14 CH in 5 gen ped. Also is shown and has JW, BOB, BIS, and lots of 1st and 2nd places.

I will add some pics later. x


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

How many of you posting on this thread actually have a rescue SBT??


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

kiara said:


> Thanks for all your replies.
> 
> As for pointing people to rescue, not everyone wants to adopt a pup from rescue not knowing its genetic history.
> 
> ...


to be honest i think you are clutching at straws. 
i didn't work on presumptions i worked on whats currently available NOW many of which from already established reputable breeders! and the numbers will continue to rise.
on the other hand there's reputable breeders that have put future breeding plans on hold as they see the mess the breed is currently in
i think it's incredibly sad your even considering this knowing the crisis the breed is in 
the amount of champions a puppy has in it's pedigree means absolutely nothing , could have a pedigree printed completely in red and just because it is it don't always = a great dog.



kiara said:


> How many of you posting on this thread actually have a rescue SBT??


i don't own SBT's afraid they don't 'float my boat' as a breed but anyone with the teeniest inkling knows whats going on and what actually IS happening in rescues across the UK. and the sad truth is , until people STOP breeding for a couple of years at least the mess will never be sorted out and staffies will continue to suffer.
you were right , this thread has opened up a right can of worms and i suspect just like me , many others cannot share your joy and excitement.
you posted your thread and expected i suspect something along these lines , so it's pointless being defensive about it.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

flosskins said:


> There are far too many staffies in rescue to consider breeding more unless you are breeding from the very best of champion stock to ensure the bloodlines of the best are continued to prevent any loss to the breed. If you are simply breeding from a nice health tested specimen with nothing extra to recommend it then I'm sorry but I think it is highly irresponsible. If there are people that want your puppies then surely it would be better for *them to rescue an unwanted staffie pup instead and save its life*?


i know things must be different this side of the water, but i have seen So few saff pups in rescues and pounds... again it would be lab mix and lurchers that show up as younger pups... and as has been said, a rescue staff isn't for everyone- if someone needs/wants a pup then they Will get a pup, even if it means having to go to a not so great breeder because they cant find the excellent one they want. because i needed some boy rats i ended up having to buy from pets at home because there were no registered breeders in the country! i'm on the waiting list for a cork breeder but heaven knows when kits will show up. i had to take my chances with the rats, so the same Could be done with a pup 



Nagini said:


> after doing a bit of research on the kennel club , there's quite a few staffordshire puppies available from there too 119 in total. add that together with the numbers already on champdogs thats 244 puppies already been born currently advertised via reputable websites.
> so , i really don't think there's need for anymore with whats already available out there and those numbers will rise significantly within the next few months due to reputable breeders expecting litters.
> 
> in 2011 there were 7,113 staffordshire bull terriers registered!!!!! probably followed by the same amount the following year , so , is there any need for any more?


but chances are that some at the very least of the champdogs ones are also on the kc website. and of the 7,113 pups registered, how many of them will be conformationally, temperementally and healthily sound?


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> but chances are that some at the very least of the champdogs ones are also on the kc website. and of the 7,113 pups registered, how many of them will be conformationally, temperementally and healthily sound?


that may well be the case and i will check. 
7,113 puppies is a lot and i'd lay my life on the line and say looking at figures currently available a good portion of those (at least half) would have been reasonably well bred dogs.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

I really don't want to derail this thread in to an argument, but just want to make two points.

1) If the dog ends up in rescue then that is not the product of a responsible breeder by my definition.
Responsible breeders keep up with the dog for the life of the dog, and take the dog back at any point in the dog's life. To that end they make sure the dog is always traceable back to them. 
Here our whenever our rescues get a pure bred, we attempt to contact the original breeder. The responsible breeders will move mountains to recover their dogs. One breeder drove 3 days to recover one of her former pups. This is what a responsible breeder does. Therefore, if the dog is sitting in rescue with no one to claim him/her, then I call that the product of a less than stellar breeder.

2) Putting a hold on breeding for a few years will only affect the quality breeders. The BYB and puppy mills will NOT stop breeding. So saying "let's put a hold on breeding X breed for X amount of time" is only going to flood the market with even more physically and temperamentally unsound dogs, which will further demonize the breed. There have to be good example of the breed out there too. 
Punishing the responsible breeders is not the way to solve the crisis.

JMO...


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

ouesi said:


> 2) Putting a hold on breeding for a few years will only affect the quality breeders. The BYB and puppy mills will NOT stop breeding. So saying "let's put a hold on breeding X breed for X amount of time" is only going to flood the market with even more physically and temperamentally unsound dogs, which will further demonize the breed. There have to be good example of the breed out there too.
> Punishing the responsible breeders is not the way to solve the crisis.
> 
> JMO...


okay put it this way , there are 40 stafford litters from registered kennels on another site at the moment. 23 of those litters available from kennels i have actually heard of and i don't own staffs!
so it's not actually the case there aren't enough quality dogs out there already being bred as there are more than enough from what i can see.


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## tabulahrasa (Nov 4, 2012)

Nagini said:


> to be honest i think you are clutching at straws.
> i didn't work on presumptions i worked on whats currently available NOW many of which from already established reputable breeders! and the numbers will continue to rise.
> on the other hand there's reputable breeders that have put future breeding plans on hold as they see the mess the breed is currently in
> i think it's incredibly sad your even considering this knowing the crisis the breed is in
> the amount of champions a puppy has in it's pedigree means absolutely nothing , could have a pedigree printed completely in red and just because it is it don't always = a great dog.


My puppy has plenty of red in his pedigree - he's miles away from breed standard.

With staffies being in the state they are I think there's absolutely no need to be breeding from a bitch who isn't a champion.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

First off well done for health testing, it's great that you are wanting to do the right thing.

You say your bitches breeder was a "good breeder" but fail to say what your girls mum is like? you mention her dad. If her mother was of "pet standard" there would be a clear issue as to 1) the type of puppies produced and 2) the level of homes you can find.

You have failed to state the type of stud you are looking for, is he fully health tested? is he shown? 

As your bitch is not shown she would need to be looked at by a breed specialist (If you wish I can point you in the direction of a few) and her faults picked out so you can actively find a suitable stud who could improve on her faults.

So many staffies don't look like their intended breed now. 

You would also need to be very careful, any pups born may not be to standard and thus rules out "show" homes and you may find the types of people wanting your pups are less than satisfactory. 

I agree there is a need for good breeders however in a breed as overrun as Staffies I believe these should be very carefully done and should compliment the breed as so many don't actually look like their breed standard anymore. 

And YES I have rescued a staffy, 2 infact.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

kodakkuki said:


> but chances are that some at the very least of the champdogs ones are also on the kc website.


had a quick look and jotted the numbers down only 20 registered between the kennel club and champdogs.

that still leaves 224 registered on both sites from october last year. half of those could well end up in rescue before they reach their first year!!


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## Your Halo (Apr 13, 2011)

So aside from good genes what exactly has your bitch done? Is she show or working lines? Has she been shown or worked? Has she been successful? 

Realistically she is just a healthy pet Staff which, IMO, isn't a good enough reason to be breeding from her. If you want to use the excuse that you are breeding for the betterment of the breed etc then you need to be breeding from the very best of the gene pool who is proven in their field.

Whilst it's commendable that you have done all the leg work and health tests its not a good enough reason on its own to be breeding from her. 

I'd love to know which rescue is fully behind you breeding a pet dog?


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> I really don't want to derail this thread in to an argument, but just want to make two points.
> 
> 1) If the dog ends up in rescue then that is not the product of a responsible breeder by my definition.
> Responsible breeders keep up with the dog for the life of the dog, and take the dog back at any point in the dog's life. To that end they make sure the dog is always traceable back to them.
> ...


I wish they would here, but they don't even when they have papers and the breeder is easily traceable. There was a thread recently where a poster who helped rescue actually asked the rescue if she should contact the breeders as they had their details. The rescue said NO - they would rehome the dog themselves. Unfortunately, this attitude is too common.

The 'reselling of dogs' and it's acceptance as the norm in this country is unbelievable. It horrifies me, but because it is so commonplace, and dogs are considered 'goods' under the law, even the various authorities see no link between breeders/previous owners of a dog once that ownership has changed.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have to say I am with the OP on this. Yes, there are lots of staffies in rescue and for sale from poor breeders. There are also people that actually want a decent staffie with a good background so why should this sort of owner be pushed into taking on a staffie with unknown health and background because it is immoral for a good caring breeder to produce a litter.
I think that would be very counter productive and just carry on the myth that Staffies are difficult dogs that will end up in rescue.

If someone goes out and buys a staffie from a reputable breeder there is absolutely no more reason why it would end up in rescue than any other breed. Should all good breeders stop breeding so that their breed goes downhill fast.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

rocco33 said:


> I wish they would here, but they don't even when they have papers and the breeder is easily traceable. There was a thread recently where a poster who helped rescue actually asked the rescue if she should contact the breeders as they had their details. The rescue said NO - they would rehome the dog themselves. Unfortunately, this attitude is too common.


Oh wow... 
No, it's not done that way here at all. In fact more and more responsible breeders are microchipping pups before they leave with the breeder's information, that way if the dog is picked up at any point, the breeder will know right away. Many breeders have clauses in their contracts that allow them to take a dog back at any point if the owner is not fulfilling their end of the deal. Like if the breeder finds out the dog is outside chained up all day, if their contract is written correctly, the breeder is well within their rights to come reclaim the dog. It gets sketchy sometimes, but the breeders who care will not hesitate to reclaim dogs, fight for their dogs, and keep up with their dogs for the life of the dog. As it should be IMO. You should be responsible for the life you help create.


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## Your Halo (Apr 13, 2011)

Blitz said:


> I have to say I am with the OP on this. Yes, there are lots of staffies in rescue and for sale from poor breeders. There are also people that actually want a decent staffie with a good background so why should this sort of owner be pushed into taking on a staffie with unknown health and background because it is immoral for a good caring breeder to produce a litter.
> I think that would be very counter productive and just carry on the myth that Staffies are difficult dogs that will end up in rescue.
> 
> If someone goes out and buys a staffie from a reputable breeder there is absolutely no more reason why it would end up in rescue than any other breed. Should all good breeders stop breeding so that their breed goes downhill fast.


I'm going to make a sweeping statement here but try not to shoot me for it. There seems to be 2 types of Staffie buyer.

The one who only wants to spend £50 and doesn't actually give a monkeys about anything other than the colour of the pup (blue being the ideal) and how cheap it is. This is not the sort of buyer the OP is going to attract.

Then the one who is a dedicated Staffie owner and spends a long time researching the breeding lines, health, temperament and how well proven the dog is in the show ring/working field. This is not the sort of buyer that the OP is going to attract either......


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> First off well done for health testing, it's great that you are wanting to do the right thing.
> 
> *thank you*
> 
> ...


I also have 2 rescue staffies. x


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

ouesi said:


> Oh wow...
> No, it's not done that way here at all. In fact more and more responsible breeders are microchipping pups before they leave with the breeder's information, that way if the dog is picked up at any point, the breeder will know right away. Many breeders have clauses in their contracts that allow them to take a dog back at any point if the owner is not fulfilling their end of the deal. Like if the breeder finds out the dog is outside chained up all day, if their contract is written correctly, the breeder is well within their rights to come reclaim the dog. It gets sketchy sometimes, but the breeders who care will not hesitate to reclaim dogs, fight for their dogs, and keep up with their dogs for the life of the dog. As it should be IMO. You should be responsible for the life you help create.


It's so frustrating. Petlog (microchip) are supposed to be introducing a scheme that keeps breeders details on record, but it is not up and running yet and I suspect won't be until microchipping becomes compulsory. I do microchip in the vain hope that as there is a record of me being the breeder, someone, somewhere MAY check it. I also have a contract that says the puppy/dog (at any time during it's life) should come back to me if the owners can't look after it, although it's unlikely to be legally enforceable so I also offer full money back (whatever the age of the dog) so to encourage them to bring them back to me rather than try and sell on or leave with rescue.


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

I have to say I'm enjoying this debate, I agree with almost everything that has been said - on both sides, how odd is that! 

I can see where the OP is coming from, my heart tells me about the plight of Staffs in rescue and whereas I don't have a rescued Staff, all of my dogs are, have been, and will be. 

If people want to buy a puppy, whether it's for showing or pet purposes, there are only two options IMO, either buy from a health-tested dam/stud or rescue, there is nothing inbetween. 

My head and heart swing both ways on this thread and as I've said, I can agree with most posters. Great debate!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

OP, RE the list of breeds you mentioned and how many are registered etc:


That isn't relevant though, is it? For two reasons:

1 - who is to say that some of those breeds are not also being overly bred? Labs for example. The sheer number of people with pet Labs who decide it would be 'nice' to throw their dog together with another Lab they meet at the park and who then register their pups is staggering.

2 - none of those breeds are in the ghastly crisis that Staffies are. Yes, other breeds are being PTS when rescues are full but the reality is: it is Staffies that are being euthanised in the hundreds per week.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

8tansox said:


> I have to say I'm enjoying this debate, I agree with almost everything that has been said - on both sides, how odd is that!
> 
> I can see where the OP is coming from, my heart tells me about the plight of Staffs in rescue and whereas I don't have a rescued Staff, all of my dogs are, have been, and will be.
> 
> ...


Glad I'm not the only one. I'm like "they have a point" then "oh but they have a point too". I can see both sides of the debate.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

It's not deniable that there are too many staffies in rescue etc that have been badly bred.

But it also seems there's enough if not too many KC registered staffies.
Whether you've done health testing etc and carefully chosen a stud, there's no reason to breed her if she's not one of the best examples of the breed. 

There are too many staffies being bred full stop.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

sharloid said:


> It's not deniable that there are too many staffies in rescue etc that have been badly bred.
> 
> But it also seems there's enough if not too many KC registered staffies.
> Whether you've done health testing etc and carefully chosen a stud, *there's no reason to breed her if she's not one of the best examples of the breed. *
> ...


A few people have said this, and like others, I agree with most of what I being said, But, would this not cause a bottleneck after a while?


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm kinda on the fence with this. 

I agree that once the dogs have left the breeders hands there is no guarantee that they won't be bred from, even with endorsements - it just means no KC registration, so I can see where people are coming from.
I read in Dogs Today in 2011 that the secretary of the SBT breed club had stopped breeding because of the crisis facing Staffies and understood fully why.

BUT it would be so nice to see a proper looking Staff for a change instead of the poorly bred gangly type we see all too often on our streets. It would also be nice to see the perfect temperament return to the breed, the ones that are not only good with people but with other dogs too. That could do a lot to help the breed gain better publicity than it has now. I understand it's not all about breeding, nature vs nurture and all that but IMO a hell of a lot of it is.

My last Staff was from show winning stock, had a perfect temperament around other dogs, children, people even my pet rabbit and that's the kind of Staffs I want to see again. Not ones that you have to think 'is it a Staff or crossed with something' only to be told it's a KC regd dog and looks or acts nothing like it should. 
So I believe we still need to see well bred dogs by responsible breeders who will take back a dog at any time in it's life to save it going into rescue. The show world needs them too.

I don't know how you would be 100% sure they'd not be bred from though, other than keeping them all til old enough and spaying/neutering and keeping entire the ones fit to show.
A properly legal contract is an idea, one with a solicitor behind it, signed by the owner in the presence of the solicitor and not just a contract of agreement singed by breeder and new owner. I don't think the later is really legally binding.

I added in my contracts my preference for the dogs to be neutered and the girl I kept and had her spayed before she went to her new home, so paranoid was I that she may be bred from because all previous enquiries ended up being honest and said 'just the one litter'  and I couldn't put her through that. I think they told me because of the endorsements and knew one day they'd have to ask me to lift them but without the endorsements I think they'd have just lied. 

It's so difficult and I've only done it once but it's a huge responsibility having a litter and it stays that way until all the dogs have gone to the bridge IMO. 
You meet people you don't know three or four times, they seem genuine enough, tell you they'd never part with your baby, they'd give it the Earth and even after you've thoroughly vetted them, their home and thought you've made the right choice you end up with one coming back because a baby is on the way!  Better of course than the dog being shoved off somewhere else but taking people at their word and on face value can have comebacks, it's so difficult to trust people sometimes.

Saying all that I still believe we need some good examples of the breed and I don't believe for one minute that responsible breeders, breeding form health tested/show stock will make a blind bit of difference to the BYB's and idiot owners who breed for money. They'll still do it and the rescues will still be full of their offspring. As long as the op contracts to have the dog returned to her and no one else if it ever has to be re homed then I think she should go ahead. Because all the [email protected] breeders will do - unfortunately!


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

I too can see both sides of the argument but if OP is going to make sure that future pups dont go into rescue then I think it would be a shame to put a downer on her enthusiasm to breed a litter of well bred health tested puppies. 

I think its madness to expect responsible breeders to lay off breeding SBTs for a length of time. It just opens up the market for breeders that dont give a stuff for the breed.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

chichi said:


> I too can see both sides of the argument but if OP is going to make sure that future pups dont go into rescue then I think it would be a shame to put a downer on her enthusiasm to breed a litter of well bred health tested puppies.
> 
> I think its madness to expect responsible breeders to lay off breeding SBTs for a length of time. It just opens up the market for breeders that dont give a stuff for the breed.


Exactly!  Nothing will stop the idiots from breeding and good well bred Staffs will be a thing of the past if decent breeders stopped. Same with any breed really, even my own litter can prove that. While Flynn may be fantastic as far as I'm concerned he's not breed standard - far too tall, leggy and 'donkey-ish' poor boy. Love him as I do I wouldn't want to see all Mals go the same way. Inevitably they will, I see them already 'white ' Mals when I know we only have three imports over here at the mo. and they're shown, not bred from.

Good breeding should continue because without we'll lose the true breed to people who wouldn't know a good Staff if they tripped over one.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2013)

chichi said:


> I too can see both sides of the argument *but if OP is going to make sure that future pups dont go into rescue* then I think it would be a shame to put a downer on her enthusiasm to breed a litter of well bred health tested puppies.


no one can absolutely 100% guarantee that even the very best have been caught out



chichi said:


> I think its madness to expect responsible breeders to lay off breeding SBTs for a length of time. It just opens up the market for breeders that dont give a stuff for the breed.


some of the best kennels out there are still breeding , just not as actively as they once were. some have stopped altogether for now until the crisis is sorted out. but still , there are quality health tested staffords out there and it really don't take a lot of work to find them. a litter caught my eye just today while i were looking , they were just simply stunning!! 
i think a newbie going into breeding staffs is absolute madness because theres absolutely no way they can compete with some of the litters i've seen advertised today! now i am in now way experienced with staffs but i do definitely know a nice dog when i see one


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

chichi said:


> I too can see both sides of the argument but if OP is going to make sure that future pups dont go into rescue then I think it would be a shame to put a downer on her enthusiasm to breed a litter of well bred health tested puppies.
> 
> I think its madness to expect responsible breeders to lay off breeding SBTs for a length of time. It just opens up the market for breeders that dont give a stuff for the breed.


But how can *any *breeder guarantee that none of their pups will end up in rescue?

It is simply *not *possible, even with the best of intentions.

Just because there is a contract with the owner, does not mean the owner will contact the breeder if they decide to rehome their dog. They may be embarrassed to do so, or maybe they simply can't be bothered to and instead just dump the dog in the nearest rescue or the pound.

I also think there seems to be a bit of a myth that only 'poor' examples of the Staffy breed are in rescue - I doubt this is the case for any breed. Goodness knows there are numerous Labs in rescues that look like great examples of the breed.

*OP *- you clearly love the breed and I *do* understand why you are tempted to breed. I simply feel that right now, with so many lovely Staffies being PTS, that really breeding of these dogs should be as minimal as possible. Just my opinion


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

It's true that you don't have a guarantee an owner will contact you if they need to re home one of your pup and that's why it's so important to keep in *regular contact* with them. I was quite miffed about my pup coming back because a baby was on the way, didn't even consider giving him a try and he wasn't an aggressive dog in any form BUT they never had an inkling on how I felt about them not wanting the dog any more and with such a feeble excuse. I said I was 100% behind their decision and never once, even after I had him back, did I let on how disappointed I was. I have stayed friends with all my puppy owners and always told them if for *ANY* reason they felt they couldn't keep a pup I would be completely behind them and take it back. So I *KNOW* all my pups are still in their homes as I get e mails regularly from all of them.

Micro chipping is also good idea, having the new owners and breeders details on record and hopefully if one did go to a rescue they'd contact both. You can never guarantee it won't happen but why would a friend take your pup to a rescue when they know you'll have it back with open arms in a non judgemental way? - just doesn't make sense. 
Most people love their dogs regardless of if they can keep them, some have circumstances beyond their control like a marriage break up where they can't give the dog what they used to be able. I think most people would rather know the dog is back with it's breeder than in a stone kennel fretting. That's where BYB's and PF fall short and that's why I think most of the rescues are from those kind of breeders, breeders who aren't supportive, who the last thing they want is to see that dog again once they have cashed in on it - too much aggro for breeders who are in it just for cash!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

OP - just to mention that if someone posted here saying they wanted to breed Labs, I would be saying much the same. As I mentioned before, although not in crisis the way Staffies are, there are countless Labs in rescue.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Malmum said:


> It's true that you don't have a guarantee an owner will contact you if they need to re home one of your pup a*nd that's why it's so important to keep in regular contact with them. *I was quite miffed about my pup coming back because a baby was on the way, didn't even consider giving him a try and he wasn't an aggressive dog in any form BUT they never had an inkling on how I felt about them not wanting the dog any more and with such a feeble excuse. I said I was 100% behind their decision and never once, even after I had him back, did I let on how disappointed I was. I have stayed friends with all my puppy owners and always told them if for *ANY* reason they felt they couldn't keep a pup I would be completely behind them and take it back. So I *KNOW* all my pups are still in their homes as I get e mails regularly from all of them.
> 
> Micro chipping is also good idea, having the new owners and breeders details on record and hopefully if one did go to a rescue they'd contact both. You can never guarantee it won't happen but why would a friend take your pup to a rescue when they know you'll have it back with open arms in a non judgemental way? - just doesn't make sense.
> Most people love their dogs regardless of if they can keep them, some have circumstances beyond their control like a marriage break up where they can't give the dog what they used to be able. I think most people would rather know the dog is back with it's breeder than in a stone kennel fretting. That's where BYB's and PF fall short and that's why I think most of the rescues are from those kind of breeders, breeders who aren't supportive, who the last thing they want is to see that dog again once they have cashed in on it - too much aggro for breeders who are in it just for cash!


But contact is a two way thing 

If for whatever reason the owner isn't interested in remaining in touch, not much a breeder can do, I'm guessing?

To reiterate: I am a BIG fan of Staffies and I only have to see one to start smiling. I just think that now is not the time to be breeding yet more. Now, IF new laws were enforced that would *stop* the backyard breeders and puppy farms, then it would be great if folk like the OP were the ones breeding.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Honestly Kiara is there a right way to breed staffies?
I am speechless!

well almost

Did you breed your tortie moggie twice right?
Did you breed your border terrier cross right?
And arn't you working for a rescue?
Out of curiosity is the staffie you are intending breeding a rescue?

look at the picture those of you who think ANY staffies should be breed

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/140461-not-sure-long-3.html


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

DT said:


> Honestly Kiara is there a right way to breed staffies?
> I am speechless!
> 
> well almost
> ...


DT that link you posted makes very interesting reading...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> DT that link you posted makes very interesting reading...


The link is just words OBAYL and they say words are cheap, they are also easily forgotton,

It is actually the picture that breaks my heart, hope people bother to look at it


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

bumping
Because I am seriously interested in hearing from anyone what is wanting or considering breeding from an SBT


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

DT said:


> bumping
> Because I am seriously interested in hearing from anyone what is wanting of considering breeding from an SBT


Guess no one wants to talk to me on this one!

cant think why!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Would be 'interesting' if the OP would engage in a convesation!


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> DT that link you posted makes very interesting reading...


I admit, at first I was on the fence but after reading the post in the link I think it's a very bad idea. Especially since the OP isn't "one for pure breeds". Be it cats or dogs.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

FACTS
25% of SBT's account for strays!
80% of SBT's are pts before they are a two years old!
yet the OP claims she is going to do it the 'right way'
The OP also works for a 'rescue' ????
is there a right way??
This thread has infuriated me more then ANY on here EVER!


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

DT, I think your getting yourself a bit worked up...

I own a Staffy he's the 'gangly' non kc registered (probably wasn't health tested type). If my grandad hadn't of taken him he would of ended up as "bait". 

So I can see where your coming from and can see why your angry it isn't fair and it isn't right.. infact it's downright disgusting what BYB's are doing to this lovely breed. There are far TOO MANY in rescues and far too many being PTS.
I totally agree.

I have no idea who the OP and what "she's about" so I can't make any judgement on her... I don't want the SBT breed to "die out" and would love to see them bred properly to standard.. If pedigree breeders just stopped I think it would only increase the BYBs.

(I'm not well enough to type a huge essay on how I feel - Sorry Just wanted to reply to you because you seem to be a bit het up x)


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

auspiciousmind said:


> DT, I think your getting yourself a bit worked up...
> 
> I own a Staffy he's the 'gangly' non kc registered (probably wasn't health tested type). If my grandad hadn't of taken him he would of ended up as "bait".
> 
> ...


Erm! Im not getting worked up! I love the SBT and am fostering one!
But have NO time for anyone breeding em!
They are dying by injection! and untilmthat stops the problem needs addressing!


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

DT said:


> Erm! Im not getting worked up! I love the SBT and am fostering one!
> But have NO time for anyone breeding em!
> They are dying by injection! and untilmthat stops the problem needs addressing!


I wasn't meaning to offend you... Your obviously passionate about the breed (I get "worked up" when I'm passionate about something).

I'm passionate about the SBT's I have only ever owned SBTS or SBT Crosses... All of which have been rescued. I totally agree that it's terrible!

I agree the problem does need addressing very very quickly - I'm not saying that the OP is the person to do the job either.. I don't however think totally stopping breeding of SBTS (from Champion Lines) is right or feasible. Infact I think if you stopped the pedigree breeding - the ones that do the health tests and really really try hard to keep the breed healthy and free of problems is going to cause more problems.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goldstar said:


> I admit, at first I was on the fence but after reading the post in the link I think it's a very bad idea. Especially since the OP isn't "one for pure breeds". Be it cats or dogs.


People are so easily hoodwinked


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

If what has been posted is correct, then I'm wondering why on earth the OP made this thread in the first place, knowing what brilliant detectives we have on this forum (and I mean that most sincerely peeps), surely they'd assume that someone somewhere would do some digging.


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## Starlite (Sep 9, 2009)

Iapplaud the OP for going about it the right way.
A responsible breeder not breeding will not stop the chavs. What WILL is people not buying them with no papers or health tests. No market, no breeders 

Yes there are people with nothing better going on than to find fault with everything you say and do, but ive seen this with every breed in the 4yrs ive been on here.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

auspiciousmind said:


> I wasn't meaning to offend you... Your obviously passionate about the breed (I get "worked up" when I'm passionate about something).
> 
> I'm passionate about the SBT's I have only ever owned SBTS or SBT Crosses... All of which have been rescued. I totally agree that it's terrible!
> 
> I agree the problem does need addressing very very quickly - I'm not saying that the OP is the person to do the job either.. I don't however think totally stopping breeding of SBTS (from Champion Lines) is right or feasible. Infact I think if you stopped the pedigree breeding - the ones that do the health tests and really really try hard to keep the breed healthy and free of problems is going to cause more problems.


I think there are enough SBT breeders of ' quality stock' to ensure the breed does not die out!

IF you *bother* to read back! and check the OP's other * breeding* attemps you may realize why I am so against this! The bitch being used is NOT a champion, she is not an outstanding example of the breed!

you have got to laff really! someone working for rescue wanting to breed SBT's! what cloud are they on???
I give in -honestly I do.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Starlite said:


> Iapplaud the OP for going about it the right way.
> A responsible breeder not breeding will not stop the chavs. What WILL is people not buying them with no papers or health tests. No market, no breeders
> 
> Yes there are people with nothing better going on than to find fault with everything you say and do, but ive seen this with every breed in the 4yrs ive been on here.


Please elaborate starlite!
How is the breeder going about it the right way?
Does she have a good example of the breed?
Ive got a male dog with more red names in his pedigree then this years cruftswinner! but he's a POOR example of the breed!
the difference is! ILL ADMIT IT!
Ive been here over 4 years 
we do not need any more SBT breeders - the poor dogs are being PTS everyday of the week
and THAT is unforgivable!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

auspiciousmind said:


> I wasn't meaning to offend you...s.


you havn't!
you'd know if you had


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

8tansox said:


> If what has been posted is correct, then I'm wondering why on earth the OP made this thread in the first place, knowing what brilliant detectives we have on this forum (and I mean that most sincerely peeps), surely they'd assume that someone somewhere would do some digging.


well if there is any doubt its here in black and white!

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/140461-not-sure-long-3.html


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

DT said:


> I think there are enough SBT breeders of ' quality stock' to ensure the breed does not die out!
> 
> IF you *bother* to read back! and check the OP's other * breeding* attemps you may realize why I am so against this! The bitch being used is NOT a champion, she is not an outstanding example of the breed!
> 
> ...


Ok, Honestly I'm not trying to argue with you and I agree with all your points and if you *bothered * to read what I had said before* " I'm not saying that the OP is the person to do the job"*

I think your far to emotional at the moment to have a debate.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

auspiciousmind said:


> Ok, Honestly I'm not trying to argue with you and I agree with all your points and if you *bothered * to read what I had said before* " I'm not saying that the OP is the person to do the job"*
> 
> I think your far to emotional at the moment to have a debate.


 I don't argue i debate!
But whatever you say
I am not bothered about upsetting you, or anyone else on here, but what does get to me is seeing the poor SBT in rescue and the rescues begging for homes for them! if you call that 'emotional' then *yes * I am, I sincerely wish I could help them all.
So to cut to the chase, when I read a thread that says someone (involved in rescue) wants to breed SBTs the *right way* and that someone has previously bred their moggy cat (twice) and their cross bred dog before it sorta don't quite *'gel'* with me.

so now if you would like too respond, without fear of me being 'emotional' then go ahead! because it isn't my emotion's you need to fear, its the 'facts' I have at my fingertips!:


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

Oh dear. How very sad. I agree, we do not need more mediocre Staffies.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2013)

auspiciousmind said:


> I'm not saying that the OP is the person to do the job either.. I don't however think totally stopping breeding of SBTS (from Champion Lines) is right or feasible. Infact I think if you stopped the pedigree breeding - the ones that do the health tests and really really try hard to keep the breed healthy and free of problems is going to cause more problems.


i've provided many links on this thread and if you care to take a look there are people who care enough about the breed still breeding staffordshire bull terriers , people with years of experience under their belts that know what they are doing , it's not a breed in any danger of dying out.
is there ever a right way breeding dogs when someone openly admits on a forum , they planned a litter of crossbreeds? works for rescue but won't even consider aborting a litter of cats? whereas many rescues do and would.
afraid ''this kind'' of breeding don't sit comfortable with me , you are either a dedicated ''rescue'' person , or a ''dedicated'' breeder the two don't go comfortably hand in hand i'm afraid.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

8tansox said:


> Oh dear. How very sad. I agree, we do not need more mediocre Staffies.


That is the only point I am trying to get across

I too have been here along time, and if I had to look for someone giving advice or breeding SBTs it would be someone like sallyann (who alas is no longer with us)


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

DT said:


> I don't argue i debate!
> But whatever you say
> I am not bothered about upsetting you, or anyone else on here, but what does get to me is seeing the poor SBT in rescue and the rescues begging for homes for them! if you call that 'emotional' then *yes * I am, I sincerely wish I could help them all.
> So to cut to the chase, when I read a thread that says someone (involved in rescue) wants to breed SBTs the *right way* and that someone has previously bred their moggy cat (twice) and their cross bred dog before it sorta don't quite *'gel'* with me.
> ...


Again I reiterate.. I agree with everything you've said.. I quite agree with you. The only point we differ on is that I would like to see them bred properly (champion lines, great standard) by people who are passionate about the breed not just STOP breeding them all together. I have never said the OP is fit for this purpose.

I have no "fear" of the facts you have at your fingertips because I already probably know them.

I only posted on this thread because you APPEARED to be getting wound up with lack of response you kept posting when nobody was replying).

We are in fact on the "same team".


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

Nagini said:


> i've provided many links on this thread and if you care to take a look there are people who care enough about the breed still breeding staffordshire bull terriers , people with years of experience under their belts that know what they are doing , it's not a breed in any danger of dying out.
> is there ever a right way breeding dogs when someone openly admits on a forum , they planned a litter of crossbreeds? works for rescue but won't even consider aborting a litter of cats? whereas many rescues do and would.
> afraid ''this kind'' of breeding don't sit comfortable with me , you are either a dedicated ''rescue'' person , or a ''dedicated'' breeder the two don't go comfortably hand in hand i'm afraid.


I don't know whether my painkillers are affecting the way I'm typing or not BUT WHEN HAVE I SAID THAT I THINK THE OP IS THE PERSON TO DO THE JOB?

I HAVEN'T.

This type of breeding (the OP) doesn't sit comfortable with me either... All I've said is that I don't think stopping breeding of staffies TOTALLY is the the right thing to do. I would like to see DEDICATED people breed champion lines. I have said this in nearly every post?!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

auspiciousmind said:


> Again I reiterate.. I agree with everything you've said.. I quite agree with you. The only point we differ on is that I would like to see them bred properly (champion lines, great standard) by people who are passionate about the breed not just STOP breeding them all together. I have never said the OP is fit for this purpose.
> 
> I have no "fear" of the facts you have at your fingertips because I already probably know them.
> 
> ...


I think we maybe are (on the same team) but I think we already have enough passionate breeders of the SBT, if you read back you will see how many registered litters are available at present, there just is *not*room for any more breeders at this moment in time.  And what exactly does this bitch have to offer?? other then a few red names in here pedigree? that are hardly worth the ink they are written in because no doubt they come from the sires side!


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2013)

auspiciousmind said:


> I don't know whether my painkillers are affecting the way I'm typing or not BUT WHEN HAVE I SAID THAT I THINK THE OP IS THE PERSON TO DO THE JOB?
> 
> I HAVEN'T.
> 
> This type of breeding (the OP) doesn't sit comfortable with me either... All I've said is that I don't think stopping breeding of staffies TOTALLY is the the right thing to do. I would like to see DEDICATED people breed champion lines. I have said this in nearly every post?!



there are PLENTY dedicated breeders still breeding staffords , breeders breeding from CHAMPIONS , dunno why your attempting to argue the toss. the breed isn't in any danger of dying out now , or any time soon , thats a fact.


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

DT said:


> I think we maybe are (on the same team) but I think we already have enough passionate breeders of the SBT, if you read back you will see how many registered litters are available at present, there just is *not*room for any more breeders at this moment in time.  And what exactly does this bitch have to offer?? other then a few red names in here pedigree? that are hardly worth the ink they are written in because no doubt they come from the sires side!


I quite agree (again). I didn't mean we needed more and "new" passionate breeders just that I wouldn't like to see the breeding stopped all together.


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## auspiciousmind (Sep 2, 2012)

Nagini said:


> there are PLENTY dedicated breeders still breeding staffords , breeders breeding from CHAMPIONS , dunno why your attempting to argue the toss. the breed isn't in any danger of dying out now , or any time soon , thats a fact.


Again I didn't say NEW breeders just that I wouldn't like to see ALL breeding stopped.. I do NOT agree with the OP starting to breed. Perhaps I wasn't clear?!!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

My final word on this one!
I have been rather 'vocal' on this thread!
yet the OP seems to have vanished!
if she/they/he had been so convinced then could have done it* ' the right way'* then surely we would have had more input from them!
FACT is!! there is not right way!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

auspiciousmind said:


> Again I didn't say NEW breeders just that I wouldn't like to see ALL breeding stopped.. I do NOT agree with the OP starting to breed. Perhaps I wasn't clear?!!!


No one wants to see the sbt wiped out, its the only dog I would ever consider having in the future!
What we dont want to see it 'idiot ' breeders, back yard breeders, puppy farmers, nor opportunists. Neither do we want to see young dogs slaughered becaused of all of the above! Do you know that 80% of sbts dont make it to one year old?
now tell me im emotional, and I'll tell you why:smile5:


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2013)

auspiciousmind said:


> Again I didn't say NEW breeders just that I wouldn't like to see ALL breeding stopped.. I do NOT agree with the OP starting to breed. Perhaps I wasn't clear?!!!


i think everyone is in agreement that ALL breeding shouldn't be stopped , fact is there are already enough quality dogs out there at the moment , actively being shown , winning shows , making it to champions and being bred from - no one actually ever said those kind of breedings should be stopped altogether - what people are so against IS new people coming into the breed such as the OP and openly admitting they are going to breed when so many others know it is such a bad idea. on the OP's part , it's a poorly thought out plan and a poorly researched plan - had they cared to do their homework they'd know for a fact there's more than enough quality puppies already on the market and people are in total agreement unless people truly know what they are doing and are experienced breeders (experienced meaning - they ACTIVELY show their dogs , having their dogs consistently WINNING in shows etc) then everyone is in total agreement there's no need for second rate dogs to be bred from.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nagini said:


> i think everyone is in agreement that ALL breeding shouldn't be stopped , fact is there are already enough quality dogs out there at the moment , actively being shown , winning shows , making it to champions and being bred from - no one actually ever said those kind of breedings should be stopped altogether - what people are so against IS new people coming into the breed such as the OP and openly admitting they are going to breed when so many others know it is such a bad idea. on the OP's part , it's a poorly thought out plan and a poorly researched plan - had they cared to do their homework they'd know for a fact there's more than enough quality puppies already on the market and people are in total agreement unless people truly know what they are doing and are experienced breeders (experienced meaning - they ACTIVELY show their dogs , having their dogs consistently WINNING in shows etc) then everyone is in total agreement there's no need for second rate dogs to be bred from.


you got it! Spot on


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

After reading the other thread I really don't think the OP should be breeding, I don't think someone who's a rescue worker should be producing so many different litters (Cats/cross dogs and now staffies) 

I am quite concerned as she's not one for pure-breeds which makes me wonder why that's changed now? 

I think the OP should leave the breeding to those in the breed who have shown their dogs and have established themselves within the breed/breed clubs.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> After reading the other thread I really don't think the OP should be breeding, I don't think someone who's a rescue worker should be producing so many different litters (Cats/cross dogs and now staffies)
> 
> .


the fact that the op is a rescue worker is the one that alarmed me the most!
that is the reason i did a bit of 'digging'
a rescue worker breeding her moggy twice and her cross breed dog dont sorta sit right with me somehow!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

And my 'final' final word on this one!
the very fact that the OP has not come back to comment indicates to me that they are certainly not doing it the 'right way'
They changed 'their signature' to throw you off the scent! i've drawn my concusions on them - you make your own, but if you get a puppy off them you just might as well go to any back yard breeder!
coz sorry! but thats exactly what the are!
end of


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

DT- I have not read all the posts fully that have been recently posted on this thread as I have been out. I am replying to your visitor message. I will talk to you and I am not ignoring anyone.

What would you like to talk about? x


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kiara said:


> DT- I have not read all the posts fully that have been recently posted on this thread as I have been out. I am replying to your visitor message. I will talk to you and I am not ignoring anyone.
> 
> What would you like to talk about? x


I dont want to talk about anything specific! other then the plight of the poor staffordshire bull terrier in general that is!
i am actually amazed, that you, as a rescue worker could even consider breeding them!

and what attributes do you feel that you bitch can bring to the table? How can you better the breed?

Kiara! I am honestly - speechless

do you know how many STB's are pts each day kiera?


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

DT said:


> And my 'final' final word on this one!
> the very fact that the OP has not come back to comment indicates to me that they are certainly not doing it the 'right way'
> They changed 'their signature' to throw you off the scent! i've drawn my concusions on them - you make your own, but if you get a puppy off them you just might as well go to any back yard breeder!
> coz sorry! but thats exactly what the are!
> end of


erm excuse me, I am certainly NOT a BYB! How dare you!  and how have i changed my sig to falsify people. my sig has the dates of the pups and kittens you have referred to!!!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kiara said:


> erm excuse me, I am certainly NOT a BYB! How dare you!  and how have i changed my sig to falsify people. my sig has the dates of the pups and kittens you have referred to!!!


I dare, because I dare!
did you breed your moggy twice?
and did you breed your cross bred dog?
Can you account for all their offspring?
and what makes you think you can breed' SBT's the 'right way!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kiara said:


> erm excuse me, I am certainly NOT a BYB!:


Matter of opinion, but I think you are! thats my view, you convince me otherwise!


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

DT said:


> I dont want to talk about anything specific! other then the plight of the poor staffordshire bull terrier in general that is!
> i am actually amazed, that you, as a rescue worker could even consider breeding them!
> 
> and what attributes do you feel that you bitch can bring to the table? How can you better the breed?
> ...


OK so as you are not looking to 'talk' you obviously want to argue!!:nonod:

Yes I am a rescue worker and I care for my breed tremendously. Although there are lots of staffies being put to sleep these tend not to be well bred, health tested dogs. These are the off spring of those who throw any 2 staffies together.

This is clearly NOT my intention.

I do my bit more then alot others for the SBT. I think you will find a lot of responsible breeders also help out rescue within their breed.

My bitch can bring alot to the breed, she is a very good example. Which has already been explained in this thread. I would not be breeding her if this wasn't the case.



DT said:


> I dare, because I dare!
> did you breed your moggy twice?
> and did you breed your cross bred dog?
> Can you account for all their offspring?
> and what makes you think you can breed' SBT's the 'right way!


I did allow my first moggy out while she was in heat, she was a silent caller, and I was naive. I have her offspring right here with me, bar 2, 1 is with my sister and the other with my cousin. ALL 6 of my cats are now neutered.

I did breed my cross breed dog. I have never said that I hadnt. I am not stupid and I know everyone can see all my previous posts. I also can account for all of her pups.


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## kiara (Jun 2, 2009)

I can do this the right way as I care so much for the breed, they are my life....


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> I can do this the right way as I care so much for the breed, they are my life....


I'm sure you THINK you are doing it the right way, that is not the same thing as DOING it the right way.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kiara said:


> OK so as you are not looking to 'talk' you obviously want to argue!!:nonod:
> 
> Yes I am a rescue worker and I care for my breed tremendously. Although there are lots of staffies being put to sleep these tend not to be well bred, health tested dogs. These are the off spring of those who throw any 2 staffies together.
> 
> ...


firstly Kiara, no you are wrong, i do not want to argue!
I just honestly cannot see why people want to bring SBT into the world whilst the breed is in such crisis at the moment.

alas, I fail to see also why you think you bitch can bring something to the table. Has she done well showing? Has she qualified for crufts?

My eldest dog kiara has more champions (red) names in is pedigree then the current crufts champion! YET he is the worst example of the breed I have ever seen, red names mean nothing.

I am not trying to be horrible, I am just wanting you to rethink! honestly Kiara!!!! continue rescuing, foster, HELP the breed, but please DONT add to it!

And re the breeding
I had my bitch (who I show) hip scored when the was 2 years old ( she is now 5)
I got a SSCH and FTCH as a sire
but it never really sat right with me as seeing the poor mites in rescue I knew that ifI brought eleven pups into the world then that would mean a death sentence for eleven older dogs!
the hipscoring cost me £150 was I bothered about recouping it! was I heck! i'd give it 100 times over to save just one dog
but that thes diffecence! * I care*


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kiara said:


> I can do this the right way as I care so much for the breed, they are my life....


My breed is my life! and I care so much for them that I choose NOT to add to them!


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

kiara said:


> I can do this the right way as I care so much for the breed, they are my life....


it's fair to state everyones dogs are their life. ive found that to be the case here anyway. the difference is most people can see faults in their own dogs that you do not appear to be seeing in your own , you can't state what she can bring to the table and can't say for sure what faults she could bring into your line , you've not answered whether you show her and not answered whether she's actually won anything at all , other than saying ''she is a good example of her breed'' - by whose standards are they ? judges ? you ? or just a friend of a friend of a friend?
feel free to PM me the rescue you ''foster'' for as i for one would actually like to question their ethic's


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

kiara said:


> I can do this the right way as I care so much for the breed, they are my life....


I don't think you can Kiara


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Nagini said:


> it's fair to state everyones dogs are their life. ive found that to be the case here anyway. the difference is most people can see faults in their own dogs that you do not appear to be seeing in your own , you can't state what she can bring to the table and can't say for sure what faults she could bring into your line , you've not answered whether you show her and not answered whether she's actually won anything at all , other than saying ''she is a good example of her breed'' - by whose standards are they ? judges ? you ? or just a friend of a friend of a friend?
> feel free to PM me the rescue you ''foster'' for as i for one would actually like to question their ethic's


great post! and yes! it is fair to state that everyone of us love our breed!
AND that in itself , or those of us who REALLY care is a reason NOT to breed


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Looking at pets4homes there are too many of lots of breeds. Twenty five pages of Staffs and Labs, too many by far so it shouldn't be because its a Staff the op wants to breed but any of the dogs who are bred in excess. 

I don't recall anyone telling sleeping lion she shouldn't breed her Lab because there are too many about, perhaps because it was known she would do her best to ensure they all got the best possible homes. If the op is as careful and is breeding fully health tested stock then where is the difference?

I think most of those in rescue (any breed) are ones a breeder doesn't want to know about, the kind of breeder who won't take back a dog later if it somehow ends up unwanted. Vet homes, endorse puppies, sign contracts and stay friends to know where your pups are to take any back should it be needed. We still need good quality dogs of all breeds, giving up on that will just leave people with no choice other than BYB's if there are no other dogs available. Staffs may be filling rescues but there is still a need for quality dogs and not the puny, leggy dogs some BYB's are churning out.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

DT said:


> FACTS
> 25% of SBT's account for strays!
> 80% of SBT's are pts before they are a two years old!
> yet the OP claims she is going to do it the 'right way'
> ...


Surely you mean that SBTs account for 25 percent of strays, not that 25 percent of SBTs are strays.

Also surely you mean that 80 percent of strays pts are SBTs - though the two figures you have quoted do tend to negate each other.

There is no way that anyone can know the numbers of staffies that are bred so your figures cannot possibly be accurate unless they are turned round as I did - in which case they do not mean the same thing at all.



DT said:


> No one wants to see the sbt wiped out, its the only dog I would ever consider having in the future!
> What we dont want to see it 'idiot ' breeders, back yard breeders, puppy farmers, nor opportunists. Neither do we want to see young dogs slaughered becaused of all of the above! *Do you know that 80% of sbts dont make it to one year old?*
> now tell me im emotional, and I'll tell you why:smile5:


Again the bolded sentence makes no sense and contradicts what you said in your previous post.

I also can see no reason why working in a rescue should stop anyone from breeding. Ok, so some people might get all emotional about it and dream that their pups will all end up in rescue but why should they if the job is done properly and one would hope that someone who works in a rescue has far more dog savvy than the average pet owner and will do a good job in rearing pups and selling them to good homes.

As Malmum said, no one tells Swarthy not to breed her labs, yet every free ads have dozens of adverts for labs or lab crosses and plenty end up in rescue.

IF I was looking for a staffy I would be looking for a breeder like the OP. I do not like going to 'big' breeders and would far rather buy a pup from a one off litter that is bred in the home and is advertised locally and I am sure the vast majority of pet owners feel the same way.

What is wrong with having a litter of kittens. It is really hard for people to get kittens nowadays apart from rescue and not everyone wants to go that way. It is good that the numbers of litters have reduced but it is a shame that you cant still go and get a kitten from down the road. That is the sort of cat that most people want to end up with.

I have absolutely no idea if the OP is a suitable breeder, whether she is telling the truth or anything else about her but I dont think this is really the point as it is breeding that is being attacked not just her.

Years ago rescues were full of collies - no one said they should not be bred.


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## shetlandlover (Dec 6, 2011)

Blitz said:


> As Malmum said, no one tells Swarthy not to breed her labs.


Breeders like swarthy keep the Lab breed alive, swarthy is established in the breed, breed club and shows her dogs. I think any over-bred breed should only be bred by those who show or work the dogs as there's so many poorly bred, non show pups around already.

Because Swarthy breeds show dogs she will attract people wanting show pups as well as those looking for pet pups, there's noticeably more chance of her pups being homed than if they were just pet pups.

Price, is the OP going to charge the going rate for KC reg Staffs? Or KC reg show staffs? Or slightly more because they are health tested? If it's more than the going rate or the same as a show potential pup then the chances are she will be over-looked as much of Joe public don't care about health tests.



Blitz said:


> What is wrong with having a litter of kittens. It is really hard for people to get kittens nowadays apart from rescue and not everyone wants to go that way.


There's loads of Kittens on free ad sites like Pets 4 homes and Preloved. Not to mention loads of pet shops sell kittens.

There's certainly not a shortage of Moggie Kittens.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Blitz said:


> Surely you mean that SBTs account for 25 percent of strays, not that 25 percent of SBTs are strays.
> 
> Also surely you mean that 80 percent of strays pts are SBTs - though the two figures you have quoted do tend to negate each other.
> 
> ...


NO i mean 80% of SBT don't make it to their 2nd birthday, and the 25% are strays was misstyped in hast I will try and find where these figures came from and post the link.

and I think you will maybe find that the shelters are at least three quarters full of SBT or SBT type dogs.
I was speaking to a well known rescue between notts/derby recently, I was trying to get a place for a boxer, They told me they had ONE space available and that they were keeping it for a SBT or type, i think all their dogs were that breed. and the only reason they had that space was because DogsTrust had taken three dogs from them earlier that week

Any yes you are right! I AM attacking breeding, because the breed is in Crisis. there are plenty of good SBT breeders already, Is there really room for more?

Anyone who chooses to breed can do do , they are not answerable to you, me, the forum, god or anyonem but there will always be folk like me who come along and air our views on the subject, and on reason we do that is because we care


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

http://www.crewechronicle.co.uk/cre...n-quarter-of-strays-last-year-96135-31168426/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2010/08_august/02/panorama.shtml

http://www.savethestaffies.org.uk/

http://www.savethestaffies.co.uk/

Yeah! go ahead, breed away, another won't make no difference!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Am I missing something DT or is there something inherently wrong with breeding a border terrier crossbreed?  Oh wait...it's a cross, it must be wrong, right? As for health tests, the post you linked to mentions there are no recommended health tests for such a healthy breed.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Am I missing something DT or is there something inherently wrong with breeding a border terrier crossbreed?  Oh wait...it's a cross, it must be wrong, right? As for health tests, the post you linked to mentions there are no recommended health tests for such a healthy breed.


TBH phoolf, its sad i know but I am pretty anti breeding most things at the moment! hope you are not knocking my little cross bitch

I copied loads of links relatting to the SBT crisis, don't know if they are good or bad! I never read em
but one thing you a be sure of! Like you, I WILL speak my mind.
and i wont dress my words up either


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> TBH phoolf, its sad i know but I am pretty anti breeding most things at the moment! hope you are not knocking my little cross bitch
> 
> I copied loads of links relatting to the SBT crisis, don't know if they are good or bad! I never read em


I'm not anti-breeding so long as breeding doesn't add to the rescue centres i.e. good homes lined up and willing to take any dog back. I don't buy the argument about breeding necessarily worsening the rescue crisis, as rescue dogs aren't for everyone. I have no idea if a rescue would rehome to me for example due to my lack of good garden and high fences, but I'm a good dog owner, or at least I think I am. So what are my options? I can either trawl round rescues in the hope one would accept me, but then maybe they wouldn't be a good rescue, or I can get a dog privately from a breeder or private rehome. *shrug*

As for staffs in rescue I think Nottingham is worse than a lot of places, especially centres like Babbington which seem to accept SBT's more than a lot of others. In other parts of the country other breeds take up the majority in rescue.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I'm not anti-breeding so long as breeding doesn't add to the rescue centres i.e. good homes lined up and willing to take any dog back. I don't buy the argument about breeding necessarily worsening the rescue crisis, as rescue dogs aren't for everyone. I have no idea if a rescue would rehome to me for example due to my lack of good garden and high fences, but I'm a good dog owner, or at least I think I am. So what are my options? I can either trawl round rescues in the hope one would accept me, but then maybe they wouldn't be a good rescue, or I can get a dog privately from a breeder or private rehome. *shrug*
> 
> As for staffs in rescue I think Nottingham is worse than a lot of places, especially centres like Babbington which seem to accept SBT's more than a lot of others. In other parts of the country other breeds take up the majority in rescue.


It was actaully babbington I was refering to earlier,

I know what you mean about a rescue not being for everyone!
And I can say with certainty when I got my first dog i would NOT have passed the rescue centres criteara, but all rescues have different regulations and the even differ in some cases from dog to dog.

I do honestly think there are certainly enough good SBT's out there.
And there are many many pups being handed over to rescue as well as whole litters being taking into the vets to be pts (its true my vet told me)

i cannot remember it it was on here of whether someone told me , it may even have been at my vets that I was told, But the receptionist of a vets got a 8week ish SBT pup! she saved it by running upstairs into someones house and grabbing it out of the bath! its litter brothers and sisters alas did not survive! The owner/breeder drowned the lot in the bath because they could not find homes for them.

they are I add being procescuted


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> It was actaully babbington I was refering to earlier,
> 
> I know what you mean about a rescue not being for everyone!
> And I can say with certainty when I got my first dog i would NOT have passed the rescue centres criteara, but all rescues have different regulations and the even differ in some cases from dog to dog.
> ...


These people will be breeding and handing out pups regardless though, I honestly don't see what this has to do with the OP who have vetted homes beforehand and seems to have had no problems with this. She does not seem the type of person to tie her pups up in a bag and leave them on a park if she can't sell them  Just because people are breeding dogs badly doesn't mean that nobody responsible should breed, as well bred dogs with responsible breeders aren't adding to rescues. Unless of course you feel that every puppy owner would go for a rescue staff with a possible myriad of problems instead. I just don't get it to be honest....


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Also Babbington have a lot of SBT's as this is the one place the dog warden can drop them off and they actively encourage taking in SBT's which a lot of other rescues do not, hence they are not in any way representative of rescues as a whole.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> There's loads of Kittens on free ad sites like Pets 4 homes and Preloved. Not to mention loads of pet shops sell kittens.
> 
> There's certainly not a shortage of Moggie Kittens.


they are certainly impossible to get round here apart from rescued feral ones and I think the fact that they now cost money rather than free to good home shows there are less in most areas. Not that this is a bad thing of course, it is far better that cats are neutered but I see nothing wrong in someone choosing to breed a litter if they have people wanting the kittens. When they were being bred in their thousands it was irresponsible and many were drowned or disposed of in other ways but it does appear to have gone the other way now.



DT said:


> NO i mean 80% of SBT don't make it to their 2nd birthday, and the 25% are strays was misstyped in hast I will try and find where these figures came from and post the link.
> 
> and I think you will maybe find that the shelters are at least three quarters full of SBT or SBT type dogs.
> I was speaking to a well known rescue between notts/derby recently, I was trying to get a place for a boxer, They told me they had ONE space available and that they were keeping it for a SBT or type, i think all their dogs were that breed. and the only reason they had that space was because DogsTrust had taken three dogs from them earlier that week
> ...


Of course you can air your views so long as you do not attack other people with different views. It is good to have discussions -and I do agree with some of what you say.

I really do not see how you can possibly make misleading statements like 80percent of staffies do not make it past their second birthday. With the best will in the world NOBODY can have those sort of statistics. I am fully aware that a lot of rescues in certain areas are full of staffies and it is very sad but no one has any idea how many are being bred and how many are going on to live useful pet lives. I would be astounded if your figures were anywhere near correct and would love to know where they came from.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Blitz said:


> they are certainly impossible to get round here apart from rescued feral ones and I think the fact that they now cost money rather than free to good home shows there are less in most areas. Not that this is a bad thing of course, it is far better that cats are neutered but I see nothing wrong in someone choosing to breed a litter if they have people wanting the kittens. When they were being bred in their thousands it was irresponsible and many were drowned or disposed of in other ways but it does appear to have gone the other way now.
> 
> Of course you can air your views so long as you do not attack other people with different views. It is good to have discussions -and I do agree with some of what you say.
> 
> I really do not see how you can possibly make misleading statements like 80percent of staffies do not make it past their second birthday. With the best will in the world NOBODY can have those sort of statistics. I am fully aware that a lot of rescues in certain areas are full of staffies and it is very sad but no one has any idea how many are being bred and how many are going on to live useful pet lives. I would be astounded if your figures were anywhere near correct and would love to know where they came from.


I did not invent it, I got that stastic from a SBT site, how reliable the scource is I cant say but I am still looking for the site.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

The save the staffies link you posted says 9000 PTS per year instead of being rehomed, 80% my eye.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> These people will be breeding and handing out pups regardless though, I honestly don't see what this has to do with the OP who have vetted homes beforehand and seems to have had no problems with this. She does not seem the type of person to tie her pups up in a bag and leave them on a park if she can't sell them  Just because people are breeding dogs badly doesn't mean that nobody responsible should breed, as well bred dogs with responsible breeders aren't adding to rescues. Unless of course you feel that every puppy owner would go for a rescue staff with a possible myriad of problems instead. I just don't get it to be honest....


We can only draw our own conclusions cant we?
And there's a lot I dont get either!
I don't get the OP's turnaround regarding breeding as it happens
It was not so very long ago that they wrote pretty much what I'm saying with relation to breeding


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

found some stats here.



> Breeding is yet another issue affecting dogs in the UK (*and especially Staffies*). Anyone that works in rescue will tell you that *at least 50% of dogs in rescue are Staffies or Staffy crosses*. This is a result of unscrupulous, irresponsible people breeding them as they think theyll make quick money. What they fail to realise is that these dogs are overbred. Our dog rescues are full to bursting because of peoples greed, and dogs are losing their lives every day. *Just one pair of Staffies can produce 64,000 more over a period of 4 years. Because of this, approximately 68 Staffies are killed every day in the UK; that is around 480 every week, 2083 a month, and 25,000 every year. *This needs to be stopped. Breeding of Staffies should be made illegal for the next ten years, and breeding of any dog should be regulated so this may be done only with a licence. Anyone found guilty of breeding dogs without a government licence should be subject to harsh penalties.


Dog Control and Welfare (25th July 2012)


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> found some stats here.
> 
> Dog Control and Welfare (25th July 2012)


Interesting, as staffie specific sites state 24 killed per day.

I find this logic too farfetched to find it valid though: 'Just one pair of Staffies can produce 64,000 more over a period of 4 years'

I could technically have a baby every 9-10 months, producing dozens of children in my lifetime. But I don't...


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Looking at pets4homes there are too many of lots of breeds. Twenty five pages of Staffs and Labs, too many by far so it shouldn't be because its a Staff the op wants to breed but any of the dogs who are bred in excess.
> 
> *I don't recall anyone telling sleeping lion she shouldn't breed her Lab because there are too many about*, perhaps because it was known she would do her best to ensure they all got the best possible homes. If the op is as careful and is breeding fully health tested stock then where is the difference?
> 
> I think most of those in rescue (any breed) are ones a breeder doesn't want to know about, the kind of breeder who won't take back a dog later if it somehow ends up unwanted. Vet homes, endorse puppies, sign contracts and stay friends to know where your pups are to take any back should it be needed. We still need good quality dogs of all breeds, giving up on that will just leave people with no choice other than BYB's if there are no other dogs available. Staffs may be filling rescues but there is still a need for quality dogs and not the puny, leggy dogs some BYB's are churning out.


But Labs are not being euthanised in their thousands each year.

Yes, alas some are being PTS but they are not being killed on a weekly basis, as are Staffies.

In addition and please correct me if I'm wrong but SLEEPING LION doesn't go around claiming to be a 'rescue' worker. If she did then maybe someone would have questioned her breeding her Labs.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> Interesting, as staffie specific sites state 24 killed per day.
> 
> I find this logic too farfetched to find it valid though: 'Just one pair of Staffies can produce 64,000 more over a period of 4 years'
> 
> I could technically have a baby every 9-10 months, producing dozens of children in my lifetime. But I don't...


it's not far fetched if you think about it. say for instance 8 puppies are born from each bitch , say 4 bitch puppies from each bitch , making 8 in total. that's 8 more breeding bitches been born most of which are bred from 12-18 months old (even though it shouldn't be considered until they are at least 2-3 years old) that's one hell of a lot more staffies..and so the vicious circle continues.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> The save the staffies link you posted says 9000 PTS per year instead of being rehomed, 80% my eye.


Dunno, never read em to be honest, there is so much written we'll never know which is correct, but one thing is certain the breed is in serious trouble
All one can do in read what they like and then make their own conclusions as doubt we'll ever get any official figures that can be verified

.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> But Labs are not being euthanised in their thousands each year.
> 
> Yes, alas some are being PTS but they are not being killed on a weekly basis, as are Staffies.
> 
> In addition and please correct me if I'm wrong but SLEEPING LION doesn't go around claiming to be a 'rescue' worker. If she did then maybe someone would have questioned her breeding her Labs.


Having looked at Battersea's website who put down thousands a year, it says most are healthy but have bad temperaments so cannot be rehomed. This isn't entirely breeders fault now, is it? We're quick to blame the breeders here, but what about the people who don't bring up their dogs correctly or who surrender them? Some temperament can be genetic, but some is also down to the handling. Also don't see what this has to do with the OP in the slightest if she vets homes thoroughly and makes sure she can take them back if needed. If done properly NONE of her puppies should be close to in rescue, nevermind being PTS.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> it's not far fetched if you think about it. say for instance 8 puppies are born from each bitch , say 4 bitch puppies from each bitch , making 8 in total. that's 8 more breeding bitches been born most of which are bred from 12-18 months old (even though it shouldn't be considered until they are at least 2-3 years old) that's one hell of a lot more staffies..and so the vicious circle continues.


That assumes that every single bitch is being bred from, during every single heat cycle. Which is certainly not true. Therefore it's spurious to include that in a 'report' quite frankly.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2013)

Phoolf said:


> That assumes that every single bitch is being bred from, during every single heat cycle. Which is certainly not true. Therefore it's spurious to include that in a 'report' quite frankly.


i'd probably safely assume that most were , purely because of the scale of things are at now.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> I could technically have a baby every 9-10 months, producing dozens of children in my lifetime. But I don't...


No, you could on produce a child every 1o months or so whilst you remained fertile, and fertility diminishes with age, you'd be very very lucky to make it to 20

And yes, humans do do that!, isn't there a programme currently running thats commited to that? 16 children and counting??

Now! i wonder why they are doing that, I dont watch it, but wonder 'could' it have anything to do with money!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Having looked at Battersea's website who put down thousands a year, it says most are healthy but have bad temperaments so cannot be rehomed. This isn't entirely breeders fault now, is it? We're quick to blame the breeders here, but what about the people who don't bring up their dogs correctly or who surrender them? Some temperament can be genetic, but some is also down to the handling. Also don't see what this has to do with the OP in the slightest if she vets homes thoroughly and makes sure she can take them back if needed. If done properly NONE of her puppies should be close to in rescue, nevermind being PTS.


No breeder can guarantee that unwanted pups/dogs will be returned to them.

No breeder on earth can guarantee this.

The owners may be embarrassed to return the dog, or maybe they simply can't be bothered or they may prefer to sell the dog on and make money on it 

I am a huge fan of Staffies but if it's accurate that anything near 25,000 are being killed each year, then personally I don't think any more breeders are needed - at this moment in time.

I would say this about ANY breed which was losing thousands a year due to there being no homes or rescue spaces for them.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Nagini said:


> i'd probably safely assume that most were , purely because of the scale of things are at now.


I know a ton of staffies, bitches and dogs, and not a single one has had a litter. So yeah....


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> No, you could on produce a child every 1o months or so whilst you remained fertile, and fertility diminishes with age, you'd be very very lucky to make it to 20
> 
> And yes, humans do do that!, isn't there a programme currently running thats commited to that? 16 children and counting??
> 
> Now! i wonder why they are doing that, I dont watch it, *but wonder 'could' it have anything to do with money!*


Funny assumption there, I haven't seen the program but from what I'm told both parents work 

Nice to see how you think though :lol:


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

The staffie problem is immense .. Probably 80 percent of dogs we get in at the pound are Staffies..

The only hard facts that I know are that some 8k unclaimed strays are pts each year and that's a conservative estimate.

My experience tells me that most will be bull breeds as part of a team that runs a pound dog rescue I know what it's like. Many rescues are not choc full of Staffies as they can control their intake but most pounds are and I know as see the backlash that pounds get if its made common knowledge they destroy dogs each week . Battersea is a dog pound and there is not room for them to help all dogs that come in so sure a huge amount get pts and suppose its the less rehome able ones. 

We were helping one pound who had a pts list each week of 5-10 dogs most of which were Staffies and crosses and the rest made up of rotties am bulls mastiffs oldies huskies or crossbreeds with behaviour issues .. But 90% were staff types and all lovely natured despite some if them not looking like the pure-sits might like. This goes on all over the UK every day... So being a rescue volunteer there is no way my ethics based on what we see every day would allow me to breed Staffies. 

All of our dogs are Staffies at the minute.. Are they all breed standard? Who knows we love them for who they are. They may have been badly bred for money or by misguided owners but 99% have had great temperaments. Others have had issues that could happen in any dog such as kennel guarding or resource guarding . A couple have had serious issues based in I am sure being
Badly treated

Most of the dogs despite probably being Byb bred are lovely and don't have a myriad of issues. Yes some have certain behaviours that the previous owners rules have encouraged I e jumping up lead grabbing but that can happen with any dog that had not had training. On health issues I can't comment so much.. Suppose the main issue is DA that we see.

I have a leggy puny staffie x who was dumped in a park as a pup ... He has turned into the most amazing dog as he grows up


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Funny assumption there, I haven't seen the program but from what I'm told both parents work
> 
> Nice to see how you think though :lol:


But was there not another family with 11 children whereby the father, a very skilled man as it happens, catagorically refuses to work

And please, don't assume you'll ever know how i think


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

EmCHammer said:


> The staffie problem is immense .. Probably 80 percent of dogs we get in at the pound are Staffies..
> 
> The only hard facts that I know are that some 8k unclaimed strays are pts each year and that's a conservative estimate.
> 
> ...


Thank you
I read that as a very unbiased post based on facts rather then heresay, which alas i admit to saying most of my figures quoted have been based on such.

Very refreshing when someone can put forward reasons 'not' to breed in such a manner.

Alas, again I admit to cracking wholenuts with a hammer!

B


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-breeding/140461-not-sure-long-3.html

Page 3 ..post 23

What's changed now ??

I'm on the fence tbh.but , I am surprised a person that works in rescue is intending on breeding a staff, do you show your dogs ?


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

Nagini said:


> found some stats here.
> 
> Dog Control and Welfare (25th July 2012)


These aren't stats. These are rough numbers written in a letter by a layperson. They appear to be guesswork.

CC


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## comfortcreature (Oct 11, 2008)

DT said:


> No, you could on produce a child every 1o months or so whilst you remained fertile, and fertility diminishes with age, you'd be very very lucky to make it to 20 . . .


I had a great grandmother who had 23 - good Irish Catholic potatoe farmer - and lived into her 60s. However the numbers given on what a dog 'can' do with regard to production of descendants are ridiculous.



EmCHammer said:


> . . .The only hard facts that I know are that some 8k unclaimed strays are pts each year and that's a conservative estimate. . . .


Not to dispute this, but to clarify.

The numbers given come from the dogstrust survey I believe.The reports given on strays destroyed named the destruction for aggression and ill health, with half not reporting reasons as well so we will never know if those animals were 'adoptable'. Of the ~119,000 strays 23% are status dogs, 47% find their way back home and ~40,000 are distributed to find homes.

_"The estimated proportion of stray dogs being put to sleep remains at 7%. This is still one of the lowest destruction figures recorded since the Stray Dogs survey began in 1997. This year 6,900 stray dogs were reported as having been put to sleep by authorities taking part in this survey, compared with 7,700 last year. From this figure we can estimate that approximately 8,903 dogs were put to sleep across the UK during the period of 1st April 2011 to 31st March 2012.

Amongst the authorities responding, details were given for around half of reported destructions. It was reported that 1,924 dogs were put to sleep due to behavioural problems or aggression, 1,607 due to ill health, and 575 under the Dangerous Dogs Act." - _​http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/s/straydogsurvey/straydogsurveysummaryreport2012.pdf

Animals destroyed without being made available for adoption don't figure into a discussion as proof there are too many - IMHO. If animals have been deemed unadoptable - there are no potential homes allowed to adopt them - no 'breeder puppy' is taking away their potential home.

In a country with ~8 million dogs these are remarkably low stray and destruction figures.

If you have a culture that somehow discourages people from getting pets from the pound, then that attitude needs to be addressed. Of course, that is not what people want to think about, as changing attitudes around adoption and how to encourage people to train and retain their animals is more difficult than just 'blaming breeders'.

This is not to say I support breeding of dogs that is any less than filled with care that extends through the life of the dogs.

CC


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

My son's friend has two Staffs (he's 33) he got them from a mate who bred his two together, no tests and the male very DA. This guy swapped these two pups for a stereo for his car  he and his wife split up and he gave the two breeding dogs away, to goodness knows where. 

This is the kind of breeder whose dogs are likely to go into rescue, they are not KC regd, they didn't need to be as he got the original 'pair' in a swap too. Son's friends dogs are both DA but he's never had a problem with them and humans, as is often the case.

Breeders, if you can call them that, who swap dogs for material gain make me sick and they are vastly responsible for breeding too many unwanted dogs, because when they don't want them they either swap for something else or get rid somehow. In a way it's good if these unwanted dogs do go into rescue, at least they have a better chance than just being swapped their whole lives in order to make the temporary owner a few quid.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Malmum said:


> My son's friend has two Staffs (he's 33) he got them from a mate who bred his two together, no tests and the male very DA. This guy swapped these two pups for a stereo for his car  he and his wife split up and he gave the two breeding dogs away, to goodness knows where.
> 
> This is the kind of breeder whose dogs are likely to go into rescue, they are not KC regd, they didn't need to be as he got the original 'pair' in a swap too. Son's friends dogs are both DA but he's never had a problem with them and humans, as is often the case.
> 
> Breeders, if you can call them that, who swap dogs for material gain make me sick and they are vastly responsible for breeding too many unwanted dogs, because when they don't want them they either swap for something else or get rid somehow. *In a way it's good if these unwanted dogs do go into rescue,* at least they have a better chance than just being swapped their whole lives in order to make the temporary owner a few quid.


In theory, yes.

But the reality is that in the UK, a lot of Staffies in rescue end up being PTS because there simply are not enough spaces for them.

I agree with you though, these breeders are appalling.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> But Labs are not being euthanised in their thousands each year.
> 
> Yes, alas some are being PTS but they are not being killed on a weekly basis, as are Staffies.
> 
> In addition and please correct me if I'm wrong but SLEEPING LION doesn't go around claiming to be a 'rescue' worker. If she did then maybe someone would have questioned her breeding her Labs.


I agree with the first two bits, but just wanted to say, if sleeping lion was a rescue worker, I don't think that would mean her breeding should be pulled up for questioning. I know many fantastic breeders that help out in rescues. The point is, they do not add to the rescue situation with their dogs. It sounds as though the same cannot necessarily be said for the OP.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> I agree with the first two bits, but just wanted to say, if sleeping lion was a rescue worker, I don't think that would mean her breeding should be pulled up for questioning. I know many fantastic breeders that help out in rescues. The point is, they do not add to the rescue situation with their dogs. It sounds as though the same cannot necessarily be said for the OP.


Why can't it  OP has stated that her previous border terrier litter are all in forever homes [thoroughly vetted beforehand] and she keeps up to date with them


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Why can't it  OP has stated that her previous border terrier litter are all in forever homes [thoroughly vetted beforehand] and she keeps up to date with them


Check what the OP said about breeding on another thread! I believe paddyjulie posted a link not so long back!

Has the situation regarding SBT improved since that statement were made i wonder?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> Check what the OP said about breeding on another thread! I believe paddyjulie posted a link not so long back!
> 
> Has the situation regarding SBT improved since that statement were made i wonder?


So she changed her mind on her extreme views on rescuing - so what - have you never cared so passionately about something you later changed your mind about and then mellowed out a bit - because I for one have done - having ideals is great and all - but they rarely last in the long term


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Why can't it  OP has stated that her previous border terrier litter are all in forever homes [thoroughly vetted beforehand] and she keeps up to date with them


From what I read on the other thread it appears that she has had multiple 'accidental' litters. To me this by definition makes her a back yard breeder.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> From what I read on the other thread it appears that she has had multiple 'accidental' litters. To me this by definition makes her a back yard breeder.


Which bit was that then - all I saw was 2 litters of kittens and one of dogs


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Which bit was that then - all I saw was 2 litters of kittens and one of dogs


2 litters of kittens and one little of pups, counts as multiple.

I am all for her changing her ways and becoming an ethical breeder. I also am happy to support breeders if they are breeding correctly, even with SBTs (although it makes me uncomfortable, as others have said, if the decent breeders stopped, the only staffies left would be from back yard breeders which would be a real shame). However, the only dogs that should be breed are the absolutely best quality dogs out there. I notice the OP hasn't answered whether her dog has been shown and hence objectively judged as a good example of the breed. She just keeps saying that her dog is a lovely example...

I do know though, that if I found out that my breeder has previously had multiple accidental litters, it would set alarm bells ringing. I would feel extremely uncomfortable supporting someone that had breed so carelessly in the past.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> So she changed her mind on her extreme views on rescuing - so what - have you never cared so passionately about something you later changed your mind about and then mellowed out a bit - because I for one have done - having ideals is great and all - but they rarely last in the long term


yes! I have changed my mind on several things, I have also mellowed!
BUT I have never claimed that my way is the right way
ATBH I think that a novice making such statements as that takes the biscuit!


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> 2 litters of kittens and one little of pups, counts as multiple.
> 
> I am all for her changing her ways and becoming an ethical breeder. I also am happy to support breeders if they are breeding correctly, even with SBTs (although it makes me uncomfortable, as others have said, if the decent breeders stopped, the only staffies left would be from back yard breeders which would be a real shame). However, the only dogs that should be breed are the absolutely best quality dogs out there. I notice the OP hasn't answered whether her dog has been shown and hence objectively judged as a good example of the breed. She just keeps saying that her dog is a lovely example...
> 
> I do know though, that if I found out that my breeder has previously had multiple accidental litters, it would set alarm bells ringing. I would feel extremely uncomfortable supporting someone that had breed so carelessly in the past.


EXACTLY! and whilst on the subject, the ' incredible pedigree has been mentioned! All those RED names
Well my male dog has MORE red names in his pedigree then this years crufts winner! YET he is close to being one of the worst examples of the breed Ive seen!
Red names mean naff all to me!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Alice Childress said:


> 2 litters of kittens and one little of pups, counts as multiple.
> 
> I am all for her changing her ways and becoming an ethical breeder. I also am happy to support breeders if they are breeding correctly, even with SBTs (although it makes me uncomfortable, as others have said, if the decent breeders stopped, the only staffies left would be from back yard breeders which would be a real shame). However, the only dogs that should be breed are the absolutely best quality dogs out there. I notice the OP hasn't answered whether her dog has been shown and hence objectively judged as a good example of the breed. She just keeps saying that her dog is a lovely example...
> 
> I do know though, that if I found out that my breeder has previously had multiple accidental litters, it would set alarm bells ringing. I would feel extremely uncomfortable supporting someone that had breed so carelessly in the past.


Why should only those dogs be bred exactly - I certainly don't need 'the best example of x breed' nor do I need a dog proven in any show ring - nor indeed do the majority of dog owners considering they want a family pet and not a show or working dog

Accidental matings or not I think it shows a good deal of responsibility that the OP stated in the other thread that she found good suitable forever homes for all the offspring she is responsible for bringing into the world - which is a damned sight more than most people who breed animals these days


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I think someone asked a good question a few pages back; namely, is the bitch that would be the dam a rescue...?

I'm guessing the answer is 'no' but would be great to have it confirmed if the OP is still following this thread


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Why should only those dogs be bred exactly - I certainly don't need 'the best example of x breed' nor do I need a dog proven in any show ring - nor indeed do the majority of dog owners considering they want a family pet and not a show or working dog
> 
> Accidental matings or not I think it shows a good deal of responsibility that the OP stated in the other thread that she found good suitable forever homes for all the offspring she is responsible for bringing into the world - which is a damned sight more than most people who breed animals these days


Hitler believed he were doing right by the human race too! Thank GOD we saw through him!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> Hitler believed he were doing right by the human race too! Thank GOD we saw through him!


Ding ding ding - Godwin's law! Internet debate officially down the pan


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

DT said:


> Hitler believed he were doing right by the human race too! Thank GOD we saw through him!


Er, I don't think we need to in any way be using Hitler as an analogy here...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I think someone asked a good question a few pages back; namely, is the bitch that would be the dam a rescue...?
> 
> I'm guessing the answer is 'no' but would be great to have it confirmed if the OP is still following this thread


I actually do believe the bitch is a nice bitch, but what I am struggling with is why the OP feels that there way will be the right way!

and coupled with the fact that the OP does work for rescue can they really not see the problems that the breed is facing?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Let's put breed aside for a second here and think about the 'rules of good breeding' people like to apply around this place:

Health checked - done
Looked for appropriate sire - done
KC reg - done
Will vet homes - done
Will take back pups if needed - done

What's the issue again


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Er, I don't think we need to in any way be using Hitler as an analogy here...


well the rest of the thread is ih cloud cuckoo land!

and hitler did believe he were 'breeding the perfect human

isnt this close to what the OP is claiming to do with the SBT

Dont take things to seriously!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> well the rest of the thread is ih cloud cuckoo land!
> 
> and hitler did believe he were 'breeding the perfect human
> 
> ...


Don't take things too seriously 

You actually understand what it is Hitler did don't you - what a silly and glib comment to make


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Let's put breed aside for a second here and think about the 'rules of good breeding' people like to apply around this place:
> 
> Health checked - done
> Looked for appropriate sire - done
> ...


Enought GOOD experiended SBT breeders out there already!
So what else can the OP bring to the table??? the list above is the LEAST I would expect from anyone breeding!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> Enought GOOD experiended SBT breeders out there already!
> So what else can the OP bring to the table??? the list above is the LEAST I would expect from anyone breeding!


Considering they are one of the most populous breeds in the country how can you possible say there are 'enough' breeders - or do you have more facts and figures to put out there

The problem with staffs is BAD breeders and BAD owners - as the OP is not the former and will not be giving pups to the latter the problem is negated


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> Considering they are one of the most populous breeds in the country how can you possible say there are 'enough' breeders - or do you have more facts and figures to put out there
> 
> The problem with staffs is BAD breeders and BAD owners - as the OP is not the former and will not be giving pups to the latter the problem is negated


So what figures to you have to support that they are 'one' of the most popular breeds in the country then? Are they more popular then the labrador? or the CKC?

I don't see either of these breeds in crisis?

You give me some figures phoof seeing as you seem so fond of em! you prove to me that the rescues aint full of em, that SBT breeders have long waiting lists fortheir pups and that SBT are so popular as you claim!

and theres bad breeders and bad owners IN every breed!

but how can you be so certain that NONE of the OPs pups will end up in the 'wrong' hands? or do you own a crystal ball?

Ya know what poop! Im actually beginning to think you are full of bullshit! and sharnt be replying to you anymore! In fact Ive just put you where you belong! on ignore! the first EVER


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

DT said:


> So what figures to you have to support that they are 'one' of the most popular breeds in the country then? Are they more popular then the labrador? or the CKC?
> 
> I don't see either of these breeds in crisis?
> 
> ...


:lol: First Godwin's law and now the foul language - how delightful you are - didn't you state a few pages back you debate and don't argue - if that's your debating skills they leave a little to be desired quite frankly



> According to the Kennel Club, the most popular dog in the UK is the Labrador. Noted for its intelligence, obedience and friendly disposition, this dog is perfect as a family pet. The Labrador is also very popular in other parts of the world, most notably America where it is also the most registered pet dog. The Cocker Spaniel and English Springer Spaniel both come in second and third respectively whilst the *German Shepherd and Staffordshire Bull Terrier stand at fourth and fifth.*


And that's only the KC - considering thousands of staffs remain unregistered the number will be higher - but then of course I'm full of bullshit 

I await you not replying

ETA: Oh we went full hog did we and put me on ignore - how very mature of you :lol: At least that means you won't be replying with more rubbish I suppose - goodo!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Breeding is always a contentious issue, some people will agree with you, others won't, some people might seem to agree with you and then suddenly change their mind. These are general comments, not aimed at the OP specifically, but if you are breeding in my mind you don't *just* need to health test (not health check Phoolf  ), and research the pedigree as far as you can, and look for a direction to go, and then look for a dog or dogs that match up to that direction and work out which is the best for all the right reasons (ie not the closest one, or the one that has health tests done so you don't have to bother), but you also need to stop and consider what you have. I don't think you have to show your dog, but you have to understand what makes a good dog, what good movement is, whether a dog is a good example of a breed or not, and of course that in itself is subjective so you need to research and ensure you're on the right path, or the right path as you find it. 

I would suggest to the OP however that given the way staffies are being bred, simply breeding because you've done the health tests isn't the best way to go about it, no matter how wonderful you think your dog(s) is/are, where will you go from there? What will you contribute that rescuing a dog couldn't do? It is a valid point, and it seems like something you've considered yourself previously, why bother breeding when there are so many dogs in rescue, what is your ultimate aim? 

Whatever you decide to do, whether to wait or go ahead, as this thread (and previous ones) have already shown, you will need a thick skin. Many won't agree with you breeding in your current situation, many won't agree with you breeding dogs at all, and will be vehement about it. Whether I agree with it, or other forum members is not the deciding factor, it's whether you have done enough to be what you consider an *ethical* breeder. That perception changes over time, and since I first owned dogs, which isn't vast amounts of years, but what I considered to be a good breeder then, and now, has changed considerably. Would you be happy to jump now and kick yourself later, or stand back, and really think about it, and make the decision? If your girl is young enough, you have nothing to loose by researching thoroughly, having her looked at even to assess her conformation if you don't want to show, finding help from someone else, but bear in mind, sometimes the hardest decision is not to breed at all. After all the effort and expense of health tests, you still have to put your dog first, and if it isn't right to go ahead, it can be heart breaking having all your plans come to a screeching halt. 

Anyway, lots to think about, I'm sure you've already thought about things a fair bit and there's obviously been a bit of input from others!


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

This is not a dig at anyone but I think the poem below says a lot.
Just a Staffy Cross....poem? Not my poem I think I should say.......

Today is just another day - to me they're all the same
I have the worst of genes you see, I bear the "Staffy" shame.
The shame is in our numbers, there's thousands with no home.
Thousands just like me you'll find, in kennels all alone.

My mum was "just a Staffy", my father - well who knows?
Mum, too, became unwanted, as the last puppy goes.
And then begins the process, of money-making deals
A life of "moving on" unfolds, who cares how the Staffy feels?
If you have the cash to hand, the Staffy pup is yours
But that pup is getting bigger now, just look at those big paws.

You brought me for your image, thought I'd make you look more tough
But you'll find my boisterous nature has already got too much.
If you had thought to train me, with kindness and with praise
You would have had a faithful friend to share your darkest days.
I would lay down my life for you, but you simply cannot see
You make sure you get your money back on what you paid for me.

And on it goes, until one day, I'm no longer worth a dime
The retail on an adult staff - not worth the waste of time.
So what happens to a Staffy now? Do you really want to know?
Do you care what will become of us, when we leave our final home?

Have you ever thought to wonder, "Where is that Staffy now?"
The "Staffy" has another name; he's become a "stray" somehow.
Me, I was put into a car and driven far away
The door held open, I jumped out, I thought to run and play.
It was with joy and happy heart I turned to look for you
You drove away with all my trust and a piece of my heart too.

I wondered round for many days before I was brought here.
Now I wait with heavy heart, trepidation and with fear.
Seven days is all I have you see, seven days for you to claim
The little dog that you threw out, for which you have no shame.

This is my last goodbye now my seven days are up
If only more thought had gone into the future of that pup
As the needle empties to my veins I lay down with one last sigh
I'm sorry I was born a Staffy, because it means that I must die.


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

Phoolf said:


> Why should only those dogs be bred exactly - I certainly don't need 'the best example of x breed' nor do I need a dog proven in any show ring - nor indeed do the majority of dog owners considering they want a family pet and not a show or working dog


It's not about wanting a show or working dog. It's about ethics. It's about the motivation to breed. I personally feel that as we are the ones responsible for bringing these lives into the world, that the only ethical way to do so, is to make sure, to the best of our ability, that those lives are the happiest, healthiest individuals possible - and that includes fantastic examples of their breed IF we are talking about pure breeds.

In this specific case though, it's even more important because we are talking about Staffies. Why? Because there are already 1000s of examples of poorly, carelessly breed staffies out there. There is no need for more. There is, however, a need for really well bred, quality pups.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Bagrat said:


> This is not a dig at anyone but I think the poem below says a lot.
> Just a Staffy Cross....poem? Not my poem I think I should say.......
> 
> Today is just another day - to me they're all the same
> ...


Ive read this before and it breaks my heart everytime


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> . There is, however, a need for really well bred, quality pups.


but do those seeking the breed know the difference?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I would suggest to the OP however that given the way staffies are being bred, simply breeding because you've done the health tests isn't the best way to go about it, no matter how wonderful you think your dog(s) is/are, where will you go from there? What will you contribute that rescuing a dog couldn't do? It is a valid point, and it seems like something you've considered yourself previously, why bother breeding when there are so many dogs in rescue, what is your ultimate aim?


I ask the same!


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## Alice Childress (Nov 14, 2010)

DT said:


> but do those seeking the breed know the difference?


I've no idea but going purely from what I see looking about the place, it would appear not  the same could be said for all breeds. I am amazed at how even well meaning people just go out and get a pup from a free ad without doing the proper research. A close friend of mine did just that last year and is surprised that her 'miniature dachshund' is twice the size of what she expected. God knows where the he came from.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Alice Childress said:


> I've no idea but going purely from what I see looking about the place, it would appear not  the same could be said for all breeds. I am amazed at how even well meaning people just go out and get a pup from a free ad without doing the proper research. A close friend of mine did just that last year and is surprised that her 'miniature dachshund' is twice the size of what she expected. God knows where the he came from.


AND! i think that that is half the problem! the 'buying public go out and view a litter and take what the breeder says as gods oath!
Certainly in my own breed I have heard it!


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## 8tansox (Jan 29, 2010)

DT said:


> AND! i think that that is half the problem! the 'buying public go out and view a litter *and take what the breeder says as gods oath!*
> Certainly in my own breed I have heard it!


Aint that the truth!  I see and hear this so frequently when people come along with their new puppy and in six months time, hear that they were shown pictures of adult dogs who do not resemble the dog standing beside them.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Anyway, back to the original post
Would you like to share your bitch;s KC name with us OP?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Phoolf said:


> :lol: First Godwin's law and now the foul language - how delightful you are - didn't you state a few pages back you debate and don't argue - if that's your debating skills they leave a little to be desired quite frankly
> 
> And that's only the KC - considering thousands of staffs remain unregistered the number will be higher - but then of course I'm full of bullshit
> 
> ...


And where exactly were the foul language??? one can only assume you have had a sheltered upbringing


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## chichi (Apr 22, 2012)

DT said:


> Anyway, back to the original post
> Would you like to share your bitch;s KC name with us OP?


Tbh I think asking the OP her bitchs KC name on the internet is off! What business is it of anybodys unless they are thinking of registering interest in the potential future litter (guessing that isnt your reason for wanting to know the bitchs KC name:wink.

I have tried not to comment but imho Phoolf has spoken a lot of sense and yet you have put her on IGNORE

I am guessing the OP very much regrets opening this thread!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Agree chichi, our dogs KC names are not anyone's business but our own unless we wish to freely post them. No one has a right to ask to see them except potential puppy buyers and I hope the op doesn't divulge it - if only on principle. 

What is this - a witch hunt? This thread has become ridiculous and BYB's will be having a field day if good breeders stopped breeding. Seems people are expected to not buy from them, good breeders are not to breed and people should only get rescue dogs, which judging by posts on here daily are not always what they appear to be, often having some kind of behavioural issue. I wonder how many pf members with rescue dogs have taken a Staffie, not many from the posts I read and no one has taken a Mal, why is that I wonder as there are plenty of both in rescue. Mals are hard to place because they are known to be difficult, so they languish in kennels too as do many other dogs. All rescue dogs need homes but due to personal preference many don't get them, sad as that is.
You can't blame good breeders or people not wanting particular dogs in rescue for the current crisis, its not their fault its the kind of people who dispose of dogs too freely that are to blame. If the people who bought the dog in the first place had any sense of responsibility they wouldn't get rid of it at the drop of a hat, regardless of who they bought them from. There are likely to be many more thanks to benefit capping and bedroom tax when people are forced to move home or not be able to afford a dog they may have bought when in better financial situations. There will be genuine cases, as I'm sure some are now, where government changes will make it financially impossible for people on incapacity benefit or redundant people now on job seekers because of job loss and no employment in their area to keep their dogs, the shelters will feel the backlash of these changes. Who is to blame for those cases? The free ads will likely be full of re homes by May when poverty begins to rise, which according to the Archbishop of Canterbury it will. 

Staffs aren't the only dogs having a hard time there are many others too. Plenty of Mals in rescue if you belong to the three groups on FB or look at how many unwanted ones on free ads, pets4homes have many on there at the mo, AMCUK also have their fair share, Dogs Today pages have had them as do other rescues. Doesn't stop decent Mal breeders breeding and so it shouldn't as the public SHOULD be buying from a decent source. Same goes for all other breeds. Staffs are in crisis because of the kind of people who buy them as well as breed them, both are equally to blame IMO. If you'd had a litter, kept in contact with the owners of your pups year in year out you DO know they are not in rescue, it's very easy to do - perhaps if you've never bred you wouldn't understand that level of commitment. 

Take away good breeders and force people to buy from BYB's/PF's - great idea!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Although I agree with the sentiments about the names of the OP's dogs being their own private business, that's the thin end of the stick. If you have anything to hide then you shouldn't be breeding. Too many people hide issues when breeding, or at least aren't entirely honest about them, even to themselves. 

If the OP is aware of how contentious an issue this is, and it seems as though they were from their opening post, although the hope that people wouldn't *bite* is a bit of a lost one on open forums, then the KC registered name of their dog(s) should be neither here nor there. In fact being open and honest and hiding nothing gives people less to gripe about, unless you have something to worry about with the pedigree. It backfired on one OP some time ago (nothing to do with this thread I hasten to add) when they had posted they had had their Labrador bitch hip scored and eye test done, and it turned out they hadn't at all, and on being found out to have lied to members, pretty much disappeared. I understand they then struggled to sell the litter and had used a completely different dog to the one planned as the stud dog owner wouldn't accept them with no health tests in place, they ended up selling the remaining pups at a discounted price. 

So to the OP, if you are going to continue contributing to this thread/forum, and don't want to end up with egg on your face at a future date, then honesty is the best policy. If you believe you are right and are open and honest about everything, then all people can do is berate you for not having as high a benchmark for breeding not how you physically go about it, ie the health tests and care you provide for the bitch and pups, contracts and support to new owners etc. The *why* you do it is a completely separate issue, and everyone has different opinions about that, from absolutely not ever no, to only if you do this, that and can touch your tongue to your nose whilst stood on one leg etc, you hopefully get the idea


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

There isn't a definitive answer to this debate is there. I am nearly meeting myself coming back after reading responses because I can agree with many of the sentiments in what seem to be opposing posts Yes there are loads of badly bred staffies and staffy X needing homes. Yes there are those who don't want to lose the breed standard and "nanny dog" nature of a carefully bred Stafford.
So what to do?? 
I chose to have a second staffy X rescue with issues, after our first Staff rescue boy died aged 7 . Both were neutered ( so not going to dilute the staffy gene pool even further) and on very rare occasions I wonder why I chose this path. At least I have no illusions about what hard work it can be to train a dog. If people buy a cute puppy from a BYB, some may be very surprised by the work involved and so the cycle goes on.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Malmum said:


> Agree chichi, our dogs KC names are not anyone's business but our own unless we wish to freely post them. No one has a right to ask to see them except potential puppy buyers and I hope the op doesn't divulge it - if only on principle.
> 
> What is this - a witch hunt? This thread has become ridiculous and BYB's will be having a field day if good breeders stopped breeding. Seems people are expected to not buy from them, good breeders are not to breed and people should only get rescue dogs, which judging by posts on here daily are not always what they appear to be, *often having some kind of behavioural issue*. I wonder how many pf members with rescue dogs have taken a Staffie, not many from the posts I read and no one has taken a Mal,* why is that I wonder as there are plenty of both in rescue*. Mals are hard to place because they are known to be difficult, so they languish in kennels too as do many other dogs. All rescue dogs need homes but due to personal preference many don't get them, sad as that is.
> You can't blame good breeders or people not wanting particular dogs in rescue for the current crisis, its not their fault its the kind of people who dispose of dogs too freely that are to blame. If the people who bought the dog in the first place had any sense of responsibility they wouldn't get rid of it at the drop of a hat, regardless of who they bought them from. There are likely to be many more thanks to benefit capping and bedroom tax when people are forced to move home or not be able to afford a dog they may have bought when in better financial situations. There will be genuine cases, as I'm sure some are now, where government changes will make it financially impossible for people on incapacity benefit or redundant people now on job seekers because of job loss and no employment in their area to keep their dogs, the shelters will feel the backlash of these changes. Who is to blame for those cases? The free ads will likely be full of re homes by May when poverty begins to rise, which according to the Archbishop of Canterbury it will.
> ...


But it's precisely *because *there are so many Staffies in rescue that some of us don't agree with breeding yet more!

Also I think it is vital to note that while yes, *SOME* rescue dogs have issues, there are many, many who have *none*. And it's possible to get a dog from a breeder and STILL end up having to deal with behavioural issues.

I agree with what SLEEPING LION says. If someone is proud of the dog they plan to breed from, why on earth not post the name? The OP states that she has a cracking Staffie girl - I for one would love to see some pics 

Finally - no, this is not a 'witch hunt'. The OP must have realised I think that this would be controversial when she opened the thread


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

> If people buy a cute puppy from a BYB, some may be very surprised by the work involved and so the cycle goes on.


But aren't ALL puppies hard work? are responsibly bred puppies any easier when they are chewing, toiletting, not sleeping through the night etc.

Much as I disagree with BYB, not all BYB bred dogs or rescue pups will go on to have issues, if they are well socialised from an early age both at their breeders/ rescue and new homes most will go on to make perfectly normal pets. Same as not all rescue dogs have issues by a long stretch. Any adult dog may have behaviours that their old family didn't have a problem with and the new family do mostly related around training and house rules... but many rescue dogs do not have issues.

There was a guy lived up the road from me, he bred his staffie x's they looked like leggy staffies ('Irish Staffies'). I didn't agree with his breeding (like he was going to listen to me) but his dogs were brought up with other dogs, cats, chickens and young children, in the house and I know that he took at least two of the dogs back when the homes didn't work out. They were gorgeous dogs and were far better behaved than mine.

I just think sometimes there is far too much of the case that dogs bred by responsible breeders, to a breed standard etc are somehow better than dogs bred by BYB or rescue dogs. (purely in terms of the dogs themselves who didn't chose where to be born).

(not advocating that people go out and buy a BYB pup of course - but most rescue puppies potentially come from that environment and grow up into cracking dogs with the right love, care, socialising and training).


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> But it's precisely *because *there are so many Staffies in rescue that some of us don't agree with breeding yet more!
> 
> Also I think it is vital to note that while yes, *SOME* rescue dogs have issues, there are many, many who have *none*. And it's possible to get a dog from a breeder and STILL end up having to deal with behavioural issues.
> 
> ...


I can see both sides of the coin on this debate but we mustn't forget that there are loads of breeds and crosses who are in rescues and the world over this applies. I see many Mals on the Alaskan Malamute Owners group who are saved from the most appalling lives in other parts of the world as well as over here, too much breeding is going on everywhere, that cannot be denied but it's happening in every shape and form. None more so than Staffs but then you only have to look at some of those 'breeders' the ads they put up, plus some of the people who buy them, to see where the majority of the problem rises with the breed. I do still feel we need some good ones put back into the line and not just the 'any dog will do ' type that are so common.

I have always said I wouldn't take the chance on a rescue but my next dog (when the time comes) will be a Mal from AMCUK, purely because they usually will only take KC regd. dogs and at least you would know something about the lines they are from and possible temperament. They are also placed into proper foster homes, living within a family and assessed from there. That's the only kind of rescue I could take, as in my older years I wouldn't, possibly couldn't take on one that may be too much of a risk and without some family background.

What I am confused about is, as there are so many Staffs in rescue and people who rescue feel so passionately about them why didn't they/you take on a Staff instead of the dog you chose? it's not a dig but I often wonder when folk are so passionate about others getting them from a rescue they themselves have not.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Malmum said:


> I can see both sides of the coin on this debate but we mustn't forget that there are loads of breeds and crosses who are in rescues and the world over this applies. I see many Mals on the Alaskan Malamute Owners group who are saved from the most appalling lives in other parts of the world as well as over here, too much breeding is going on everywhere, that cannot be denied but it's happening in every shape and form. None more so than Staffs but then you only have to look at some of those 'breeders' the ads they put up, plus some of the people who buy them, to see where the majority of the problem rises with the breed. I do still feel we need some good ones put back into the line and not just the 'any dog will do ' type that are so common.
> 
> I have always said I wouldn't take the chance on a rescue but my next dog (when the time comes) will be a Mal from AMCUK, purely because they usually will only take KC regd. dogs and at least you would know something about the lines they are from and possible temperament. They are also placed into proper foster homes, living within a family and assessed from there. That's the only kind of rescue I could take, as in my older years I wouldn't, possibly couldn't take on one that may be too much of a risk and without some family background.
> 
> *What I am confused about is, as there are so many Staffs in rescue and people who rescue feel so passionately about them why didn't they/you take on a Staff instead of the dog you chose? it's not a dig but I often wonder when folk are so passionate about others getting them from a rescue they themselves have not. :confused*:


I've never said that someone wanting a Staff 'must' go to a rescue 

All I ever say is that if they're not getting a rescue, I hope they'll only go to a reputable breeder and also that personally I don't think anyone new should start adding to the Staffie population *at present.*

Now that being said, I love Staff x Labs and if the day ever comes when I can get a second rescue dog, that is a cross I would definitely look at 

RE MALAMUTES:

Your post reminded me of a gorgeous dog that I often meet at a local park  He's a Mal x Husky; has the blue Husky eyes but in size and strength etc he's like a Malamute.

Absoutely GORGEOUS dog, really friendly. He's a rescue and his new owner told me that this dog had to wait in rescue for about six MONTHS because nobody would consider him, perhaps because of his size and strength? Happily, he's now with a really sweet family


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

I have got two staffie crosses as was my last dog and I would never want another breed (well mix) they are my favourites.. And I was moved enough to start volunteering for a pound dog rescue.

There is no breed that comes into the rescue or pound dog system anywhere near as much as the bull breeds they by far outweigh the number of all the other breeds added together

Off topic but Why do they only take kc reg dogs? That's one of the things we find sad as a rescue is breed rescues who we ask for help and who will not take non kc registered dogs or dogs without papers . From our side of the fence it's a dog of the breed that the rescue is so passionate about who is due to be killed shortly and they won't help. Had this a couple of times then people give us criticism for not working with the breed rescues.


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

That particular rescue is part of the breed club and they only take KC regd so as they are sure they are true Mals, because of the club. They can also gain lots of info on backgrounds of dogs, sometimes even getting in touch with breeders. There are so many Husky/Mals about that they like to know what the dogs really are. They have on occasion taken a cross but usually will only accept registered dogs otherwise the breed they are trying to help would get lost amongst the many other types and their main focus is with Mals not others.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

Fascinating debate have read whole thread in one sitting

The main thing that doesnt sit right with me is kiara places high importance on the sires show results, the champions in both lines pedigrees and has even got a critique of her bitch, was that just one persons opinion though ? 
But seemingly even having placed importance on these things you havent put the bitch in any classes to see how she would do.

I am well aware that some place no importance on the above but it seems contradictory to talk about the champs in the pedigree and great results of the sire but nothing of the dam.


In my breed it is not uncommon for people to work both with the rescue and breed themselves, but of course we are much more numerically small.


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## Bagrat (Jun 4, 2012)

EmCHammer said:


> But aren't ALL puppies hard work? are responsibly bred puppies any easier when they are chewing, toiletting, not sleeping through the night etc.
> 
> Much as I disagree with BYB, not all BYB bred dogs or rescue pups will go on to have issues, if they are well socialised from an early age both at their breeders/ rescue and new homes most will go on to make perfectly normal pets. Same as not all rescue dogs have issues by a long stretch. Any adult dog may have behaviours that their old family didn't have a problem with and the new family do mostly related around training and house rules... but many rescue dogs do not have issues.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. In fact when I started to write the reply from which you quoted I was going to say "who buy puppies from reponsible breeders" but then I thought about it and realised responsible breeders try to explain how hard bringing up a pup is, and the people who buy from them MAY (only may) have done a bit more homework and research about what they are letting themselves in for than someone who is captivated by the woman down the street's litter. Rescues "vet" potential owners as you know so this gives dog and potential owner a fighting chance of a successful outcome so no, in terms of an individual dog a BY bred pup has as good a chance as any of growing into a cracking family pet - it's just that hoomans fall down sometimes........


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

Agree with above to a degree as both Kali and Marty came from unknown sources, becoming more Mal savvy over the years Kali is def from a BYB. He still has regular litters in the BRS and when Kali was bought her parents where nowhere to be seen. I found out why on Facebook recently, her mum had a litter the season before Kali, the dog born in the same year was not her brother as I'd thought but her half brother - back to back mating. OH who bought her wasn't aware he should have at least seen mum but as soon as she set foot in this house she was nasty to my resident dogs, at just eight weeks old! She has been raised by me exactly the same as the rest but she hates all my dogs still. Raised in a shed we believe, no sign of anything doggie in his house, no puppy pads, toys, bowls or beds - speaks volumes to me but not the then OH. I think she had to fight for anything she got in her litter and as such still would do given the chance. 

Nurture in those first eight crucial weeks contribute a lot to the future dog, if that wasn't the case she'd be like the other five here who were raised in the same way once in my home. She was and still is terrified of the hair dryer, I believe that to be because she was hastily bathed before OH got there and still slightly damp and her excitement in those early days at hearing us pick up keys was likely due to the unlocking of the shed door and food being given. Poor girl and even more so poor mum, the last BRS showed he has another litter and the same sire is always used although Kali's mum is no longer used by him, likely shipped off once he'd bred the [email protected] out of her! She's eight now and loves the people in this house but I've had to keep separate packs for all the other dogs safety, Flynn being the only one she will mix with without confrontation.

There are BYB's and one off litter people. To me a BYB is someone obviously in it for money, continually breeding and not giving a damn about his dogs, can't even show the mother to buyers. OH should have walked away but had driven all the way to Cleveland to surprise me with this 'special' red girl. 

I despise the fact that he gets a penny of anyone's cash let alone OH lining his greedy pocket. That's why we need more decent breeders, ones that health test and raise their litter with love and care and not just leave them to rot in a dingy shed. Well raised pups.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

babycham2002 said:


> Fascinating debate have read whole thread in one sitting
> 
> The main thing that doesnt sit right with me is kiara places high importance on the sires show results, the champions in both lines pedigrees and has even got a critique of her bitch, was that just one persons opinion though ?
> But seemingly even having placed importance on these things you havent put the bitch in any classes to see how she would do.
> ...


Great post Babycham (where's that DD hiding?? sure she would have plenty to say on this one)

And re the pedigrees, I have studied zillions and often it does seem that often the proven dogs (loads of red names) are used with a relitivly unknown bitch. But is this really what the breed wants or needs?

And yes, that is exactly what I was doing with my bitch, she had been shown, novicly,(by a mupet !! ME ) but the sire I had choosen (or was lucky enough to had found via my mentor) was a young dog a 3 cc champion working on his FTC's.


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## BessieDog (May 16, 2012)

babycham2002 said:


> Fascinating debate have read whole thread in one sitting
> 
> The main thing that doesnt sit right with me is kiara places high importance on the sires show results, the champions in both lines pedigrees and has even got a critique of her bitch, was that just one persons opinion though ?
> But seemingly even having placed importance on these things you havent put the bitch in any classes to see how she would do.
> ...


I think you've got a great point there, Babycham.

I think my Bess is a very good example of the breed - in fact I've been told she's a 'nice dog' by a judge when he was apologising for not being able to place her due to her bad behaviour!  It would be very easy to say 'yes, my girl's a cracking girl', find a good stud and have pups.

But I want to do what I can to make sure my pups go to good homes if I eventually breed. And one way of doing that is to make sure that people want the pups because BOTH parents have been proven in the show ring and are both good examples of the breed. Showing also will tell me what are the good points, and what are the bad points of my bitch, and I can hopefully find the right stud to complement her.

But showing takes a lot of commitment. You have to train to show, you have to give up days at the weekend to travel to shows (most of mine are around 100 miles away). It's not something that you do lightly.

My girl isn't being placed, despite being a good dog, because she can't behave in the show ring. Unless this improves, maybe she's not the dog I should breed from for show quality dogs? And I wouldn't have found that out unless I got off my backside and got out there with her.

Of course, proving her a potential breeding prospect is not the only reason I show, I enjoy it as an activity in itself. But I wouldn't think of breeding her without doing it.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

EmCHammer said:


> I have got two staffie crosses as was my last dog and I would never want another breed (well mix) they are my favourites.. And I was moved enough to start volunteering for a pound dog rescue.
> 
> There is no breed that comes into the rescue or pound dog system anywhere near as much as the bull breeds they by far outweigh the number of all the other breeds added together
> 
> Off topic but Why do they only take kc reg dogs? That's one of the things we find sad as a rescue is breed rescues who we ask for help and who will not take non kc registered dogs or dogs without papers . From our side of the fence it's a dog of the breed that the rescue is so passionate about who is due to be killed shortly and they won't help. Had this a couple of times then people give us criticism for not working with the breed rescues.


I agree with everything you say 100% and note you have a far better way of putting things across.

As you have mentioned the pounds we need to also remind people that when that vital seven days are up these poor poor dogs are often given that final injection by staff who are often neither caring nor compassionate, the fear in the dogs eyes is enough to want to stop anyone breeding *at the moment * the poor staffies at the moment.

But then what the eye dont see the heart dont worry about so they say!


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## nvenoml (Dec 6, 2008)

If you love staffs you would not breed....especially as you work with rescue ones you will know that they are not a popular breed and people struggle to find homes for them everyday as it is without adding to the problem Please be responsble and do not breed!


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

I understand that the OP wishes to breed SBT's by health testing and selecting what she feel is the right breeding stock etc.. and isn't just putting two dogs together down the local park, like you hear about! 

The thing that goes around in my head is how do you cope with the fact that as you work in a rescue you know that these dogs are being PTS or filling up rescues.. it's like on one hand you are bringing life into the world, yet the next day you know there will be staffies PTS or given up to rescues (or worse). 

For me personally I don't think I could handle it. Even if you are pretty sure yours will end up in a forever home, it's just the thought that you work in a rescue where you will see these dogs and know that sadly for many it will not end well.

It's like ..your litter is allowed to live but another is condemn to die. Sorry maybe a bit over dramatic.

That's the thing that haunts me really, with the volume of SBT being PTS or being given up for rehoming, that more are being bred. Yet understand the need for well bred dogs from responsible breeders too.

Emotive subject.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

DT said:


> Great post Babycham (where's that DD hiding?? sure she would have plenty to say on this one)
> 
> And re the pedigrees, I have studied zillions and often it does seem that often the proven dogs (loads of red names) are used with a relitivly unknown bitch. But is this really what the breed wants or needs?
> 
> And yes, that is exactly what I was doing with my bitch, she had been shown, novicly,(by a mupet !! ME ) but the sire I had choosen (or was lucky enough to had found via my mentor) was a young dog a 3 cc champion working on his FTC's.


Yes you are quite right, my golden is out of an outstanding results sire but an unknown dam. i
I think this again comes back to what you alude to, everything changes when it is to do with staffies, they need more help than any other breed.



BessieDog said:


> I think you've got a great point there, Babycham.
> 
> I think my Bess is a very good example of the breed - in fact I've been told she's a 'nice dog' by a judge when he was apologising for not being able to place her due to her bad behaviour!  It would be very easy to say 'yes, my girl's a cracking girl', find a good stud and have pups.
> 
> ...


keep going with her BD, Dillon's had a difficult first year, despite having gold good citizen in obedience in the show ring he could be a real pain
But at Crufts, well, I can honestly say we just had the best time togethr, he was focused, his tail was wagging the whole time and our unexpected placings just topped it off for me  
Do you know what changed it for me
Clicker training, now I had had a go at clicker training with Willow before but never really got properly into it
But I am absolutely serious when I say it has worked wonders for Dillon and I, I had my clicker on my wrist the whole of Crufts, wouldnt be without it now 

Anyway I digress
Both of boys are nice boys, they are good examples of the breed with strong show results behind the pair of them. I know their strengths and their faults and have many critiques of them from several different judges.
If I were to be breeding a Crested I would want the very least the above from my bitch .


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