# Red kitten with no tortie neither red parents?!



## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

Dear all,

I am happy to have discovered your forum and its large community. It seems to be a great forum !

Here is my "problem" (it is not really problem but it is just that I'd like to understand how is it possible ...). 

- The mother is a Scottish (Highland carrier). Her color : BLACK SILVER MACKEREL & CHOCOLATE CARRIER (& PROBABLY ALSO CINNAMON CARRIER & DILUTED CARRIER)

- The father is a Scottish fold (Highland carrier). His color : CINNAMON (& PROBABLY ALSO DILUTED CARRIER)

They have 4 kittens :

1) INCREDIBLE RED MACKEREL male ;
2) BLUE male ;
3) CHOCOLATE MACKEREL girl ;
4) ALMOST WHITE "SLIGHTLY MACKEREL" male (but he was born light red mackerel)

How is it possible ? 
Or is the kitten 1) a "pseudo red" (for example, maybe a GOLDEN CHOCOLATE (or CINNAMON) MACKEREL that looks like a red cat ?) ?
And what is the kitten 4) ? Silver fawn that looks like an almost white "slightly mackerel) cat ?

Thank you in advance for your help !


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

Well, he’s definitely not red, unless the mum was mated with two different studs.

Are both the Queen and the stud Folds? (as in, have folded ears?)


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

lenanowa said:


> Well, he's definitely not red, unless the mum was mated with two different studs.
> 
> Are both the Queen and the stud Folds? (as in, have folded ears?)


 Thanks for your answer !

Among the kittens, the "almost white" cat is fold and the 3 other kittens are straight. The mother is a Scottish Straight and the father is a Scottish Fold.

There is no other reproductive male and they cannot go outside (they live at home). So there is only one father and he is cinnamon.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

What are the maternal grand parents colouring?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Can we have photos of the kittens and their pawpads.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

Here are the photos (see attachments)


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Looking at the photos of the kittens
1) RED MACKEREL male ;
4) Cream

without a clear photo of the nose leather and paw pads I am not 100% sure on kitten 2 & 3 ‘s colourings but kitten 3 is not a blue.

To work out why you have the colours you do. I do need the colours of the queens parents. EMS codes for the grandparents off her registration certificate are fine. I can ‘translate’ them.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Obviously you know the kitten cannot possibly be red (orange).

S/he looks cinnamon tabby to me. With a highly rufoused ground colour and cinnamon itself being a warm colour I can quite imagine the kitten appearing to be red.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

The 'red' kitten will be cinnamon. Presumably the dam *is* a cinnamon carrier so therefore does not carry chocolate. (I suppose you have a good reason for thinking she 'probably' is carrying cinnamon?) If you have seen a sorrel Abyssinian, you will know why they were originally called reds until Maureen Silson did the trial mating which established the colour was not sex linked as in real reds and that is how cinnamons originated. The poor little dilute kitten looks fawn to me.

In the first pic the other full colour kitten looks brown tabby. As @lillytheunicorn says, the paw pads would help with that one.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

QOTN said:


> The poor little dilute kitten looks fawn to me.


Why poor little?
Being a numbskull re cats, but trying to learn, does he look "sickly"
Or 
Do kittens this colour not do well?
Thank you


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> Why poor little?


It is a Scottish Fold, a breed not recognised by GCCF because of its deformity. The folded ears are caused by a condition called Osteochondrodysplasia.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

QOTN said:


> It is a Scottish Fold, a breed not recognised by GCCF because of its deformity. The folded ears are caused by a condition called Osteochondrodysplasia.


Thank you 
Is that true if one parent is a straight ear too?
Also 
If you don't mind 
Do the straight eared kits carry 'fold' and if so will they too have dodgy bones and joints in their latter years ?
Thank you


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

mrs phas said:


> Thank you
> Is that true if one parent is a straight ear too?
> Also
> If you don't mind
> ...


I thought Scottish Fold breeders had stopped using straight folds in matings and now used BSH because of the risk of more severely affected kittens, but I think there is now a genetic test available to detect the gene. I wonder if there could be impenetrance in expression of the gene which might result in some straight folds still being affected.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

Concerning the great-parents, I don't know. In fact, I've reserved the red kitten (he'll live with me in late April. He's born in January).

Due to covid-19, I've reserved my kitten through a video-call (WhatsApp). The breeder was really nice so much that the video-call lasted 2 hours.

The breeder also showed me the parents during the video-call and it confirmed what the breeder said : the mother is a black silver mackerel and the father is cinnamon.

So, the photos of the kittens come from the original add plus additional photos that the breeder sent me.

In the add, it was written that only two kittens could still be reserved :

- one red tabby mackerel Highland Straight male

- one chocolate tabby mackerel Highland Straight female

So there is a chocolate among the kittens. That' s why I thought that the mother was chocolate carrier. I didn't know that a cat cannot be chocolate carrier and at the same time be cinnamon carrier ...


I got lucky because the 4 kittens were all reserved in less than 48 hours ... The add was created on February 26th and deleted on February 28th.


The breeder was really nice and explained that "even if she works with good pedigree cats, she wanted quality and not quantity". So, she doesn't possess many cats. Saying that, the breeder has breeder friends who have more than 50 cats 

PS: I think that having many cats doesn't necessarly mean lack of quality of course ;-) I love so much cats ... I've just cited the breeder. By the way, I can understand that those who work to get a new color or even a new race or who just cannot stop keeping some kittens while they already have many cats ... I understand. Every breeder is different.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

QOTN said:


> It is a Scottish Fold, a breed not recognised by GCCF because of its deformity. The folded ears are caused by a condition called Osteochondrodysplasia.


Osteochondrodysplasia can happen relatively frequently (but not automatically) when both parents have the Fold gene. When only one parent has the Fold gene, there is no a higher probability for the kittens to develop osteochondrodysplasia than any other cat (pedigree or european cats).
That is why in Belgium and in France, they study that case and it was finally said that cats with the Fold gene are authorised but only if only one parent of the kitten has the Fold gene (not both parents) ;-) 

I am Belgian (and the breeder whom I've reserved the cute red Highland Straight is also Belgian).

In Belgium and in France, there is a LAW : the Scottish Fold (it has to be noted that it cannot be Fold and at the same time Straight) and the Highland Fold aren't forbidden only if one of the parents is not Fold (NOT Fold = Straight) and it is obligatory to prove it by a GENETICAL TEST to know if they are Fold or Straight + another GENETICAL TEST to prove that the kittens are indeed the kittens of their parents (ie a test to prove that the parents are really the BIOLOGICAL PARENTS of the kittens) ;-) 

TICA (the international pedigree), the Belgian pedigree, the French pedigree, the German pedigree, ... recognize the Scottish Fold and Highland Fold but only if one parent of the kitten has the Fold gene (not both parents) ;-)


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

https://scottish-fold-kittens.info/should-scottish-fold-cats-be-banned/
Have you read the research mentioned in the above article? It concerns the X-ray investigations of both affected and apparently unaffected Scottish Folds. It also includes the paragraph below.

*Trend Towards Banning the Breed in Europe*
The trend in Europe is definitely moving towards banning Scottish Folds, where the breed has been banned in Austria (2019) and Belgium since the the first of January 2021 - and soon - ironically - in Scotland, too: the birthplace of the Scottish Fold. The biggest platform for free classified ads in Germany stopped allowing ads for Scottish Folds in April of 2019, on the grounds of cruelty to animals.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

[QUOTE="QOTN, post: 1065743236, member: 
Have you read the research mentioned in the above article? It concerns the X-ray investigations of both affected and apparently unaffected Scottish Folds. It also includes the paragraph below.

*Trend Towards Banning the Breed in Europe*
The trend in Europe is definitely moving towards banning Scottish Folds, where the breed has been banned in Austria (2019) and Belgium since the the first of January 2021 - and soon - ironically - in Scotland, too: the birthplace of the Scottish Fold. The biggest platform for free classified ads in Germany stopped allowing ads for Scottish Folds in April of 2019, on the grounds of cruelty to animals.[/QUOTE]

I didn't know ... I was really interested in Scottish Fold and Straight and Highland since 2019 and I also watched a reportage on tv but they said it was ok if only one parent had the Fold gene etc.

But good to know. Thank you very much for the article.

Fortunately, the red kitten isn't a Highland Fold. He's a Highland Straight. 
I will never adopt a cat with the Fold gene. 
Too bad ... It' s beautiful but it is apparently too dangerous ...

Concerning Germany, I believe you of course but they don't respect it because before reserving the little red Highland Straight in Belgium, I also looked at the German and the French specialiazed websites, and well, they propose Scottish Fold kittens ("Katzen Scottish Fold verkaufen") ...


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

lillytheunicorn said:


> Looking at the photos of the kittens
> 1) RED MACKEREL male ;
> 4) Cream
> 
> I am not 100% sure on kitten 2 & 3 's colourings but kitten 3 is not a blue.


I agree with you concerning the apparence of the male kittens 1) and 4) but normally it's just in apparence because their mum isn't red nor cream nor tortie nor torbie ... She's black silver tabby mackerel.

Concerning the kitten number 3), actually I hesitate between lilac and blue but for me he looks a bit too dark to be lilac.
What do you think ?


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

gskinner123 said:


> Obviously you know the kitten cannot possibly be red (orange).
> 
> S/he looks cinnamon tabby to me. With a highly rufoused ground colour and cinnamon itself being a warm colour I can quite imagine the kitten appearing to be red.





QOTN said:


> The 'red' kitten will be cinnamon. Presumably the dam *is* a cinnamon carrier so therefore does not carry chocolate. If you have seen a sorrel Abyssinian, you will know why they were originally called reds until Maureen Silson did the trial mating which established the colour was not sex linked as in real reds and that is how cinnamons originated. The poor little dilute kitten looks fawn to me.
> 
> In the first pic the other full colour kitten looks brown tabby.


Thank you very much for your answers 

I also think that cinnamon tabby is a possibility but I searched many (really many) photos on Google Image and I couldn't find a cinnamon tabby cat looking like my little red Highland ...

Chocolate Golden tabby cat images (and not cinnamon golden tabby cat actually) on Google Image approach a bit the red color but just a bit ... It still seems too different from the red Highland kitten ...

The kitten number 3) (I mean the brother who has the same age than the "red" Highland kitten on the photos on my second message/post above), is he blue or lilac ? What do you think ?

In attachments, I've added photos of the father cinnamon (and also a photo with his previous kittens). Look at his tail ...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

No cat can't carry both chocolate & cinnamon as genes come in pairs, not triplets.

However you also have a chocolate, to produce both a chocolate (or lilac) & a cinnamon from a black & a cinnamon is impossible.

We don't have a photo of the mother.

The male does indeed look cinnamon, no idea what you mean about his tail though.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

If you would never buy a Scottish fold why would you buy a Scottish straight if the breeder is also producing folds? What I mean is you are indirectly supporting fold breeding.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> No cat an carry both chocolate & cinnamon as genes come in pairs, not triplets.
> 
> However you also have a chocolate, to produce both a chocolate & a cinnamon from a black & a cinnamon is impossible. And your 'blue' might be lilac.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the precious enlightments concerning the chocolate and cinnamon genes ! Really helpful 

So, after these explanations, maybe the father is actually chocolate and not cinnamon ? The breeder thinks that she had bought a cinnamon male but maybe he's chocolate and not cinnamon after all ?

Therefore, maybe the kittens are :

1) chocolate golden tabby mackerel (but according to the breeder, the kitten 1) is red tabby mackerel but the mum isn't tortie nor torbie nor red nor cream) ?
2) chocolate tabby mackerel (which corresponds to what thinks the breeder)
3) blue (if not blue maybe lilac = chocolate gene + dilute gene) ?
4) golden lilac ?

Concerning the tail of the father, there is a photo on which the tail seems to have a light color patch ...

PS: I learnt about the Fold issue only two hours ago while I've reserved my "red" Highland (who is Straight btw and not Fold) on February 28th. I've already paid 400€ for the reservation (the rest to pay will be in late April of course). I am not rich and the 400€ aren't reimbursable. Besides I don't have the money for a second pedigree cat knowing I've alreay paid 400€. In Belgium, the price for a cat is really high and there aren't even kittens to adopt for free (even those without race ie european cats) because of the extremely restricitive law (each kitten/cat must be shipped, vaccinated (of course) and obligatory sterilized except if you pay an imposition each year to have a special agreement to be a breeder) ...). In addition, I don't know why but globally there aren't many adds of kittens in Belgium. Even the refuges for cats don't have relatively many cats and they are mainly lost males (not abandonned cats) and the price in refuges are about 200€. Two years ago, I wanted to adopt a dog in a refuge. I looked at many refuges because they don't have many dogs neither cats actually (and almost only big dogs mainly american staff, big sheperds and huskys) but every time they refused (even for a small Jack Russel) only because I live in an appartment (65m2) even when I explained that I'll take the dog for a walk every day... what I do with my current dog (who is an adult dog that a couple with kids didn't want anymore and I had to pay them 300€ while they actually got rid of her and she was the dog with the lowest existing price in July of the whole region) who is happy with me (well I guess so because during the night she takes the best place in my bed ... She's the real master  ).


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Father looks cinnamon in his photo. Hadn't realised this is a kitten you are buying, not one you bred, and photos are from the breeder.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> Father looks cinnamon in his photo. Hadn't realised this is a kitten you are buying, not one you bred, and photos are from the breeder.


No problem 

And indeed, the breeder says that the father is cinnamon and I've to say I also think that he's cinnamon according to the photos. But then, how to explain the chocolate, the "red" and the lilac kittens ? It's crazy ...


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

None of those kittens look golden to me, I’m not sure if you can even get a golden from this pairing, but I don’t know enough about the gene.

Are the kittens coming with TICA registration? I’d assume they have something in their system to prevent registration of “impossible” kittens. Frankly, I’d be worried if the breeder doesn’t know basic genetics (or doesn’t know colour of their own cats, who knows, the mum might be a torbie). Alarm bells ringing!


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Denijs said:


> No problem
> And indeed, the breeder says that the father is cinnamon and I've to say I also think that he's cinnamon according to the photos. But then, how to explain the chocolate, the "red" and the lilac kittens ? It's crazy ...


I sometimes wonder why I bother to reply when so many people only believe what I have said once @OrientalSlave has confirmed it but never mind. At least you now accept that chocolate and cinnamon cannot be carried by black at the same time. If the kitten is cinnamon it is likely to be a different colour from the sire because the Agouti gene affects the colour. That is why I suggested you look at sorrel Abyssinians. Also, often kittens are photographed in less than perfect light and that can affect the perception of colour.

Having said that, now we know they are not your kittens, I suspect the mating may not be correct since you have only been told the details.

By the way, I think the other kitten you queried looks blue not lilac so even more suspicions that not all is exactly as you have been told. Those kittens may not all have the same sire but even that would not explain a red kitten if his dam is not tortie or red herself.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Denijs said:


> No problem
> 
> And indeed, the breeder says that the father is cinnamon and I've to say I also think that he's cinnamon according to the photos. But then, how to explain the chocolate, the "red" and the lilac kittens ? It's crazy ...


I'd be running from this breeder as they seem not to know basic genetics, plus maybe they don't know for sure which cat mated the mother.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Denijs said:


> <snip>
> - The mother is a Scottish (Highland carrier). Her color : BLACK SILVER MACKEREL & CHOCOLATE CARRIER (& PROBABLY ALSO CINNAMON CARRIER & DILUTED CARRIER)
> - The father is a Scottish fold (Highland carrier). His color : CINNAMON (& PROBABLY ALSO DILUTED CARRIER)
> <snip>
> ...


Don't complicate things by bringing in more complicated colours like Golden. There is no reason to expect Goldens from the parents given. OTOH with a silver parent I'm surprised there are no silver or smoke kittens. Maybe the very pale one is a smoke? Or a fawn silver tabby but with very little contrast?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Denijs said:


> <snip>
> Concerning the tail of the father, there is a photo on which the tail seems to have a light color patch ...
> <snip>


He has faint ghost tabby markings, and if you look at the pale area it's where his tail is in more light.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Denijs said:


> Concerning the tail of the father, there is a photo on which the tail seems to have a light color patch ...


I suspect the sire is 'just' cinnamon. In other words there has been no attempt to improve the colour by careful mating. He probably has an unsound coat. Cinnamons are difficult to breed without tabby markings and with a good cinnamon colour right down to the roots, as I know to my cost. My first cinnamon carrier was a tabby. It took me literally years to be happy with the majority of my cinnamons.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

I agree with you all. It is quite confusing and frustrating ... 

So, I was embarrassed but I've asked once again to the breeder if the mother was maybe actually a black silver tortie mackerel instead of being black silver mackerel. Afterall, maybe the dam has one or two very small discreet red patches that are very subtle (not very visible) ...

But she told me that the mother isn't a tortie and the fact that there are a red kitten comes from the father who is cinnamon with deep red shapes.

I know that the father isn't the responsable one for having a red kitten in the litter. It has to be the mum but the mum isn't a tortie...

That' s why I tried to find other genes explaining that meaning that the red isn't actually red but something else?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Denijs said:


> That' s why I tried to find other genes explaining that meaning that the red isn't actually red but something else?


It is true that some torties have only a tiny amount of red so it might be a possibility but I think that is less likely to go unnoticed in a black silver cat than in some other colours.

I have bred many Havanas (chocolates) carrying cinnamon and they never look like the picture of the sire. The fact he is such a strong cinnamon colour may have influenced the colour of this 'red' kitten because the depth of colour is governed by polygenes.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Denijs said:


> I agree with you all. It is quite confusing and frustrating ...
> 
> So, I was embarrassed but I've asked once again to the breeder if the mother was maybe actually a black silver tortie mackerel instead of being black silver mackerel. Afterall, maybe the dam has one or two very small discreet red patches that are very subtle (not very visible) ...
> 
> ...


She is clueless. Do you know what colours the dam's parents are?


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

QOTN said:


> It is true that some torties have only a tiny amount of red so it might be a possibility but I think that is less likely to go unnoticed in a black silver cat than in some other colours.
> 
> I have bred many Havanas (chocolates) carrying cinnamon and they never look like the picture of the sire. The fact he is such a strong cinnamon colour may have influenced the colour of this 'red' kitten because the depth of colour is governed by polygenes.


Thanks for the information !
Maybe that could be the explanation.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> She is clueless. Do you know what colours the dam's parents are?


No, I don't. And I've already asked her (ie the breeder) many questions and so, I am afraid to bother her with new questions ... I don't dare to ask her about the great-parents even if I secretely want to ...

But she seems so certain (and she insists) that the cinnamon father is responsible for the red kitten in his litter ... I don't dare to contradict her ... It's too delicate. And I'm the novice and she is the experimented breeder. That's why I ask questions on this specialised forum to other experimented breeders ...

To answer to a previous question, the breeder has only one male (the cinnamon cat) and her cats cannot go outside. They have to stay at home and she has advised me to do the same because some illintentionned people could steal my (futur) "red" kitten ...


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Denijs said:


> No, I don't. And I've already asked her (ie the breeder) many questions and so, I am afraid to bother her with new questions ... I don't dare to ask her about the grand-parents even I secretely want to ...
> 
> But she seems so certain (and she insists) that the cinnamon father is responsible for the red kitten in his litter ... I don't dare to contradict her ... It's too delicate. And I'm the novice and she is the experimented breeder. That's why I ask questions on this specialised forum to other experimented breeders ...


There are some 'experienced' breeders around who seem to have learnt nothing (at least about generics) from their experiences.

It's your money that's paying for him, I would be asking for a copy of the pedigree.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Denijs said:


> No, I don't. And I've already asked her (ie the breeder) many questions and so, I am afraid to bother her with new questions ... I don't dare to ask her about the great-parents even if I secretely want to ...
> But she seems so certain (and she insists) that the cinnamon father is responsible for the red kitten in his litter ... I don't dare to contradict her ... It's too delicate. And I'm the novice and she is the experimented breeder. That's why I ask questions on this specialised forum to other experimented breeders ...


Sorry to be facetious but perhaps she is so used to mixing litters that she has never worked out that a chocolate kitten from this mating is impossible. I do wonder if it is just a different kitten from the dense coloured kitten in the first pic and they are all in together. Did she say the advertised chocolate was the same litter?


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

QOTN said:


> Sorry to be facetious but perhaps she is so used to mixing litters that she has never worked out that a chocolate kitten from this mating is impossible. I do wonder if it is just a different kitten from the dense coloured kitten in the first pic and they are all in together. Did she say the advertised chocolate was the same litter?


Yes, the 4 kittens are all from the same litter. See the photo.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Denijs said:


> Yes, the 4 kittens are all from the same litter. See the photo.


All I can say is that I have never bred a brown tabby that changed colour so drastically in a few hours or even days! Look how dark the ears are in the first pic.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

Maybe among the 4 kittens, the chocolate tabby girl is not chocolate but a usual brown tabby girl? Therefore, there woudn't be any chocolate (neither lilac) in the litter.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

QOTN said:


> All I can say is that I have never bred a brown tabby that changed colour so drastically in a few hours or even days! Look how dark the ears are in the first pic.


The adult cat is the father (3rd picture) and still in this picture, the black cat comes from a previous litter with another dam.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

So, for the moment, I think that :

- the kitten 1) is a usual red kitten
- the kitten 2) is a usual brown tabby kitten
- the kitten 3) is a usual blue kitten
- the kitten 4) is a usual cream kitten (or a fawn silver mackerel if the mother is a cinnamon carrier)

So, my guess is that the mother is a black silver tortie mackerel who really looks like an actual black silver mackerel because her red patches are very small and discreet and situated in discreet parts of her body like the inside of her thighs for example).

What do you think?


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## lenanowa (Apr 15, 2019)

Honestly, this breeder sounds dodgy to me, and if you’re afraid to question them now, what will happen if you need support later, if what if the kitten gets ill? This isn’t a way to start a good relationship. I would be walking away, kitten season is only starting so there will be lots more litters around in a few months.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

lenanowa said:


> Honestly, this breeder sounds dodgy to me, and if you're afraid to question them now, what will happen if you need support later, if what if the kitten gets ill? This isn't a way to start a good relationship. I would be walking away, kitten season is only starting so there will be lots more litters around in a few months.


 Thanks for the advice. I understand. But I do really fancy this red (or whatever he is) cat.
And of course, if one day he gets ill, I'll go to the vet.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Denijs said:


> So, for the moment, I think that :
> 
> - the kitten 1) is a usual red kitten
> - the kitten 2) is a usual brown tabby kitten
> ...


Where has all this 'usual' come from? I've only come across it to describe a black (brown) Abyssinian - we call those a Usual Abyssinian, and a cinnamon Abyssinian is called a Sorrel Abyssinian.

But the mother *could* be a 'hidden tortie'. I've heard that sometimes it's as little as a few hairs between a couple of toes.

And in the first photo of the latest set, it looks like a brown tabby and a blue self, not chocolate and lilac. You can see the difference in colour between that and the 2nd photo.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

OrientalSlave said:


> Where has all this 'usual' come from? I've only come across it to describe a black (brown) Abyssinian - we call those a Usual Abyssinian, and a cinnamon Abyssinian is called a Sorrel Abyssinian.
> 
> But the mother *could* be a 'hidden tortie'. I've heard that sometimes it's as little as a few hairs between a couple of toes.
> 
> And in the first photo of the latest set, it looks like a brown tabby and a blue self, not chocolate and lilac. You can see the difference in colour between that and the 2nd photo.


 Thanks ! 

By "usual" I just wanted to say "with no other hidden genes". By "usual red" I just wanted to say red and only red with no other hidden crazy color genes ... I didn't even know that we could use the term "usual" for some specific phenotypes in Abyssinians ... My wrong. Sorry for the confusion. I'm a neophyte and I had no idea about the special phenotypes that only applies to Abyssinians and same for the "amber" that only applies to norvegian cats. But it's great.
Btw the equivalent for cinnamon ie sorrel and the copperish genes in Abyssinians are just amazing  Abyssinians and Somalis are so beautiful!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I think I'm getting confused with these kittens. I thought there was just one kitten 'query red' but in this photo (sorry, it was easiest to screenshot it) there appears to be two kittens of a similar, questionable colour?


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

gskinner123 said:


> I think I'm getting confused with these kittens. I thought there was just one kitten 'query red' but in this photo (sorry, it was easiest to screenshot it) there appears to be two kittens of a similar, questionable colour?


Either the camera is completely haywire or the pics are of different kittens. Look at the pic two along from that one you have reproduced. The other 'odd' coloured one looks the palest of dilutes in that. Definitely not lilac and it seems unlikely to be cream in view of the dark shade of the 'red.'


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Something is wrong if she will not send you a copy of the Queens pedigree. Which will answer once and for all if the Queen is a hidden tortie. She would need to have a tortie or red parent.

Also she shouldn't get upset if you ask questions, I breed and the other breeders here would answer questions. It's a lot of money you are spending.

I would walk away if it was me, it all doesn't feel right. Wrong coloured kittens is one thing, but adding in not answering your questions and the changing colours of the kittens in photos makes me think kitten farmer fronting as a tiny small breeder.

Felis Belgica has some very good breeders of British's. I nearly imported one as I loved the breeder and his cats. I can give some personal recommendations from meeting the breeders over the years if you PM me. You may have to wait as I don't think they have kittens at the moment.

http://www.felisbelgica.be/node/147


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I wouldn't touch these deformed kittens. Not just because of the bred-in deformity, but because this breeder sounds as shady as they come. Walk away. You can get a red kitten anywhere.


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

The breeder has only one male (the cinnamon Scottish Fold / carrying Highland) and three femelles :
- two pregnant femelles Straight
- one femelle (black silver tabby mackerel Scottish Straight / carrying Highland) who has 4 kittens including the little red Highland

The cats cannot go outside, they have to stay at home and she told me to do the same with my future kitten because she fears that he can be lost or even be stolen.

The breeder seems really nice and even if she was wrong about genetics, I don't think she wants to lie to me. She never refuses to answer my questions but I contact her every day with questions and thus, I'm afraid she could think that I'm harrassing her ...

The kittens will receive a Belgian pedigree 5 generations. Will it be written on the pedigree paper what are the phenotype of the parents? I guess in a pedigree 5 generations we'll see what are the phenotypes of the 4 previous generations of the red kitten, right ?

Will the pedigree federation rectify the pedigree paper by mentionning that the mother is finally a "_hidden / very discreet torbie_ silver mackerel" as she has a red kitten ?

Here is the photo of the mother (we don't see her small red patches but she has to be torbie silver)


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## Denijs (Mar 2, 2021)

There are some news !

I've written the identification number of the mother on the Belgium national cat registration and it is said that she (the dam) is :
_chocolate silver tabby_ poils ras (poils ras = shorthair)

But concerning the race
It explains the lilac kitten in the litter and maybe the fawn silver tabby mackerel, right ?
And the black tabby mackerel is actually a chocolate tabby (like the breeder said in fact ...).

But concerning the "red" kitten I still don't know ...
He's at least chocolate tabby mackerel something (and carrying cinnamon). Any idea about what the "something" could be?
I think it could be the "wide band" stuff gene (golden), golden being a recessive gene that only a silver cat can carry, correct ?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

So she might be chocolate carrying cinnamon - or the database might be wrong. She doesn't look black in the photo but photos sometimes do strange things to colours.

If she is carrying cinnamon then there could indeed have a cinnamon kitten there. She would have to be carrying cinnamon to produce a fawn, though I'm not convinced the palest kitten is a tabby. Ghost markings are common in young kittens, and in smokes.

What colours are the parents of the dam on the Belgian database? 

And, more importantly, since the database says she is chocolate, why does the breeder say the girl is black?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

The mother being silver, it did cross my mind, the remote possibility of the kitten being golden (black/chocolate/cinnamon).

However, the chances of a kitten from that mating being such an incredibly rich, bright gold are so remote as to not warrant giving time to considering the possibility. I breed goldens of various colours and I'm familiar with the genetics; whilst phenotypical 'outcomes', when 'working' with these colours can be variable, more variable than we might expect even within the same litter, I have never seen a golden kitten of that shade/colour from such parents (or indeed from golden parents) and I don't expect I ever will.

Looking again at the photos, one or two of them in particular, the kitten is just not the right shade to be red. I can't back that up with anything (other than of course the simple fact that the mating cannot produce red!) but even allowing for poor colour reproduction in photos...he just does not say 'red' to me.

Edited - I meant to add...QOTN mentioned Sorrel Abyssinians. The shade of this kitten is hard to describe but if you want something to compare him to look at Sorrel Aby photos. The shade is exactly the same.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

Denijs said:


> There are some news !
> I've written the identification number of the mother on the Belgium national cat registration and it is said that she (the dam) is :
> _chocolate silver tabby_ poils ras (poils ras = shorthair)But concerning the race
> It explains the lilac kitten in the litter and maybe the fawn silver tabby mackerel, right ?
> ...


In the light of the registration, I expect the pic with the apparent brown tabby and blue kittens was taken in poor light. The Inhibitor (silver) gene can cause chocolate to have a colder shade than normal so that may be why the breeder is confused and the fact that, in other pics the apparent chocolate looks much warmer may just mean it is not silver.

I still suspect the 'red' kitten is a cinnamon tabby in the style of sorrels years ago when the rufousing tended to be more pronounced so probably nothing to do with chocolate.

The fawn can only be explained if the chocolate carries cinnamon since it is the dilute of cinnamon. It may be a smoke I suppose but the undercoat tends to develop as they get older. It may not be a tabby because paler colours tend to show more ghosting when they are young.

It is worth noting that golden is not a gene at all. It is the non-silver equivalent of a silver tipped coat. (Wide band if you like but that gene has still not been found.) If @gskinner123 has bred goldens and never seen one that colour, the chance of a random 'bright' golden appearing in a different mating seems impossible.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@gskinner123 & @OrientalSlave what does a tarnished chocolate silver look like? 
I just wonder if the tarnishing is hiding red, so mum is a tortie.

Like you say without good colour pics in natural light especially of the paw pads it's difficult to tell. As the pawpads and nose leather are always the correct match for the colour and not affected by poly genes


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @gskinner123 & @OrientalSlave what does a tarnished chocolate silver look like?
> I just wonder if the tarnishing is hiding red, so mum is a tortie.
> 
> Like you say without good colour pics in natural light especially of the paw pads it's difficult to tell. As the pawpads and nose leather are always the correct match for the colour and not affected by poly genes


I don't breed silvers so not really the right person to ask


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@OrientalSlave we do not have chocolates or cinnamon gene so not great with those in real life. I get the genetics but that's the easy bit


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @gskinner123 & @OrientalSlave what does a tarnished chocolate silver look like?
> I just wonder if the tarnishing is hiding red, so mum is a tortie.
> 
> Like you say without good colour pics in natural light especially of the paw pads it's difficult to tell. As the pawpads and nose leather are always the correct match for the colour and not affected by poly genes


Chocolate silvers in BSH (and I've no reason to believe it should be markedly different in other breeds) tend to be quite 'cool' in colour; ie the inhibitor gene often removes warmth from chocolate colouration. Tarnishing, if present, to me would be quite distinct due to its placement/ symmetry.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

@Denijs can I ask you something?
Why the almost obsessive interest in this kitten's color and the coat color genetics, but you seemingly gloss over the fact that this is a scottish fold breeding. 
It is my understanding that all scottish folds, whether straight or not suffer with some form of osteochondrodysplasia, does this not concern you at all? Nor the ethics of breeding these cats?

With all the effort you're putting in to color genetics, why so little interest in the genetics of osteochondrodysplasia and how it affects a cat's health and long-term well-being?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I don't think any of the photos are showing true colours, some taken with flash, and others the camera isn't picking up colour correctly.
My cinnamon silver is very red, but doesn't photograph as such on most of my cameras.



lillytheunicorn said:


> what does a tarnished chocolate silver look like?
> I just wonder if the tarnishing is hiding red, so mum is a tortie.


Tarnishing isn't as stark on choc silvers as it is black silver, but I shouldn't think it's ever enough to hide red though there is no O gene in my breed.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @gskinner123 & @OrientalSlave As the pawpads and nose leather are always the correct match for the colour and not affected by poly genes


This is true for dense colours like black and chocolate and also blue but they can vary in some of the other colours. I can remember Julia May saying my Gam, cinnamon point Siamese, had red point paws and lilacs definitely don't all have the same colour paw pads. The same can be true of fawns. I don't know about silvers.



Denijs said:


> The kittens will receive a Belgian pedigree 5 generations. Will it be written on the pedigree paper what are the phenotype of the parents? I guess in a pedigree 5 generations we'll see what are the phenotypes of the 4 previous generations of the red kitten, right ?
> 
> Will the pedigree federation rectify the pedigree paper by mentionning that the mother is finally a "_hidden / very discreet torbie_ silver mackerel" as she has a red kitten ?


Some registries use phenotype without considering genotype at all. At one time even the GCCF would register a cat as a tabby even if it did not have at least one tabby parent but it is many years since that was changed. Would the Belgian registry allow the kitten to be a red if the mother was not red or tortie? If so, there is no possibility of knowing if the colours of the cats in the rest of the pedigree are accurate.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

O2.0 said:


> @Denijs can I ask you something?
> Why the almost obsessive interest in this kitten's color and the coat color genetics, but you seemingly gloss over the fact that this is a scottish fold breeding.
> It is my understanding that all scottish folds, whether straight or not suffer with some form of osteochondrodysplasia, does this not concern you at all? Nor the ethics of breeding these cats?
> With all the effort you're putting in to color genetics, why so little interest in the genetics of osteochondrodysplasia and how it affects a cat's health and long-term well-being?


There is now a DNA test to determine if the cats have the gene causing the deformity but I agree these cats should not be bred. Even a Scottish straight has some of the poor folds in its pedigree. Unfortunately these breeds based on deformities are increasingly common but not a modern phenomenon. I actually think the GCCF should stop recognising the Manx but it won't happen.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

QOTN said:


> There is now a DNA test to determine if the cats have the gene causing the deformity but I agree these cats should not be bred. Even a Scottish straight has some of the poor folds in its pedigree. Unfortunately these breeds based on deformities are increasingly common but not a modern phenomenon. I actually think the GCCF should stop recognising the Manx but it won't happen.


No, the Manx is a very old breed and it won't go away. In fact the numbers registered is on the up - 21 in 2020 and 11 in 2019.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

It's funny how human beings are so intent of breeding animals with certain genetic defects that, should their own children have a risk of inheriting, they'd do everything in their power to avoid (for the most part anyway, sadly there are those who are unhealthily eager to pass theirs on). It happens in just about every species we breed.


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