# Query for BSH breeders about kitten size/weight



## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Hello All, 

I am the proud and happy owner of a gorgeous black tipped BSH kitten called Lotus, she isn't my first, we have another 18 month old male. She is very ladylike, though suitably chunky and very lovely 

However she is 6 months old and has the appearance of a 2.5-3 month old kitten! Until the vet saw that she had her adult teeth he stated there was no way she was 6 months old - weighing her revealed she is 1kg (2.2lbs). She was slightly smaller than her litter mates, but not hugely. 

Could she be some sort of dwarf or is this size to be expected in a female of 6 months? Ironically she is the playmate of my BSH male Bentley who is a 6kg monster 

Looking for some advice from breeders as they are most likely to know the normal sizes of these gorgeous cats.

Thanking you in advance, Shelley  x


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Hi Shelley,

I am a new breeder of british but I have owned 7 British cats over the years and I would agree with your vet that 1kg is small for a 6 month old kitten (all of my kittens weighed more than that at 13 weeks when they left). However, if she is healthy in all other respects, then perhaps she will just be a small cat when fully grown? 

Perhaps more experienced British breeders will be able to offer their thoughts...


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

IMO she is rather undersized. I breed Selkirks and I breed silvers so can directly compare with the tippy brits which have similar growth rates to silver Selkirks. I have two silver Selkirk female kittens here which weight 1.3kgs at 14 weeks and the Silvers I myself bred this year were over 1.5 kgs at 13 weeks!

I would be worried about a 6 month kitten which only weighs 1kg .... Do you have any idea if her parents are small?


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## HelloKittyHannah (Nov 18, 2010)

My moggy kitten is 8 weeks old and 1.1kg, so yes I would say she is tiny! I thought BSH were meant to be quite chunky cats? Did the vets not try and venture a guess as to why she is small? Did they seem overly concerned at all?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

I have BSHs .... I don't breed them tho... like 2flowers I would say they are slightly on the heavier side of the "100 grams per week of age" rule of thumb. So 1000grams would be the size of a normal 9-10 wk old kitten. 

At 6 months they should be around 2.5 kilos to.... well... big males can easily be 6 kilos at this age... my guy was. But I would say 2.5 is kinda on the smallish side of average at 6 months (for BSHs that is). 

There are many reasons why cats can have stunted growth.... what did your vet say?? 

Did he recommend testing of any sort?? Or anything at all like that??

Is the vet happy to neuter this cat at the usual 6 months?

Does the vet expect to see much more growth? 

haver you spoken to this kittens breeder? (about the lack of size, for sake of a better word) 

My friend has bred BSHs for ever and a day.... I will call her later this eveing and ask for her take on this.

but the main thing is... she is happy & healthy & full of beans !!


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks for the reponses  In all respects other than size she developmentally bang on, the most coordinated moving and most cunning kitten I've ever had!

Her mother is on the smaller side, but certaintly not tiny and the sire was of average size. The vet thinks she's fine health wise but will just be very very small and we agreed to wait a while to spay her so she's not so tiny.

She has a great appetite and in the 4 weeks I've had her she has grown noticeably. I actually thought the breeder had just made a mistake on the paperwork regarding her birthdate until the vet confirmed it today!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> Thanks for the reponses  In all respects other than size she developmentally bang on, the most coordinated moving and most cunning kitten I've ever had!
> 
> Her mother is on the smaller side, but certaintly not tiny and the sire was of average size. The vet thinks she's fine health wise but will just be very very small and we agreed to wait a while to spay her so she's not so tiny.
> 
> She has a great appetite and* in the 4 weeks I've had her she has grown noticeably*. I actually thought the breeder had just made a mistake on the paperwork regarding her birthdate until the vet confirmed it today!


you have only had her for 4 weeks and the breeder didnt say a word that this cat weighs a third of what she should weigh??????

that's not my idea of a good breeder.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks tje, itd be intersting to know if anyone has every experienced a bsh this small! 

In terms of potential growth the vet said that she would probably grow a bit in the next 6 months but he still expects her to be titchy. Both vets at my practice adore her 

She may be a size 'lemon' but I love her just the same. I just have to keep an eye on Bentley the 6kg tank when he's playing with her


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Tje said:


> you have only had her for 4 weeks and the breeder didnt say a word that this cat weighs a third of what she should weigh??????
> 
> that's not my idea of a good breeder.


I honestly thought she was just confused around the dates, possibly in a flustery menopausal way lol. And she did comment that her girls weren't huge, combined with me thinking she might be wrong and the not huge statement, I foolishly didn't question it further.


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## HelloKittyHannah (Nov 18, 2010)

Hope this doesn't sound rude, but is your male neutered and is she allowed outdoors? It just if she actually IS 6 months old and that tiny, I'd be very wary of her possibly coming into call. I think it's safe to say the results would be awful if she got pregnant at her current size.

Again sorry if that sounds rude


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

All 3 of my boys are snipped  Firm believer in 'no accidents' that's why we were at the vets tonight having our chat about size and spaying options


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> I honestly thought she was just confused around the dates, possibly in a flustery menopausal way lol. And she did comment that her girls weren't huge, combined with me thinking she might be wrong and the not huge statement, I foolishly didn't question it further.


there is ...."not huge" and then there is "tiny"

a 2 kilo brit at 6 months would be "not huge"

your girl is "tiny"

even for a moggy, 1 kilo at 6 months is... rare to say the least.

you do not have to answer this question if you dont want to... so no worries, feel free to ignore it. If you would rather answer in private, then feel free to PM me. Did you pay a normal amount of money for this cat or was she heavily discounted?

I have some exoerience with severly growth stunted cats... none of it real good I am afraid... but they were growth stunted for a reason. I am not sure what this is with your cat.

Do you trust the breeder that if this kitten had health issues previous to coming to you, that she would have told you?

Did the breeder give a reason why this kitten was rehomed at 5 months old and not at the normal 13 weeks old??

Fell free to ignore any of these questions, they ARE personal, and they are NONE of my business. But I can't help you without knowing a bit more.


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

No probs on answering those:

I did pay a normal amount of money, she wasn't discounted.

I know someone who's had a male from her and he's a nice size for a BSH. So I kind of trust her, and my giant boy is from her daughters cats and I've always found her very straight up and honest too. That's why I'm thinking genuine error somehow or the Lotus is just a teeny weeny cat.

Just queried my o/h and he seems to think she mentioned 15 weeks to him when we bought her. Which I guess is acceptable if someones been let down on a purchase of if she was the runt?

My vets are good, theyre pretty straight up with me and I have a very honest relationship with them since my fip cat died a couple of years ago. They checked her over and agreed with me that she's probably the runt, but as my 
parents have an older tiny cat (now 11 and a coincidence, she's a rescue) I know there can be a happy ending. My vet didn't do his bad news face either when he said shed probably just be a little cat. I've come to be very familiar with the bad news face, that man could never play poker


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

I am not a breeder but do have two BSH kittens, now aged 7 months. One is male and the other female. They are not litter mates but there is only 2 days difference in age. I weigh them weekly. So for comparison:

At 6 months old Willow (female) weighed in at 2.6 Kg and Darwin at 3.3 Kg.

Today, aged 7 Months and a week (32 weeks) old, Willow weighs 3.1 Kg and Darwin is 4 Kg.

I thought Willow was on the snall side for a BSH, she does not have a huge appetite. Your little girl sounds tiny! Glad to hear she is well though and enjoying rough and tumble with her big brother!


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## MaryA (Oct 8, 2010)

There is a sticky at the top of this forum :- Kittens - sexing, weight chart and more (Sorry I don't know how to add a link) But there isn't a chart... I've been concerned about my NFCx as she has been so picky. A chart or info on expected weight would have been useful.


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

MaryA said:


> A chart or info on expected weight would have been useful.


Maybe this will do?

http://www.myhillspet.com/~/media/News Downloads/KittenGrowthChart pdf.ashx


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Shelly, I can only offer my own opinions. That is all there is with a kitten/cat like yours, opinions. Nothing is written in stone. There is no "law book" on this. Just codes of ethics that cat people hold themselves to voluntarily (when they are the good type) .

A good reliable trustworthy breeder would not just not notice that a cat was at least 60% lighter than it should be, neither would they confuse birth dates (moot point anyway as her teeth confirmed her age).

A runt of the litter is typically smaller than the rest, but NEVER 60% smaller than average. A runt can catch up after 12 weeks old and easily turn into a normal size cat or even the biggest  but all I am trying to say is a runt is like a few hundred grams lighter than the average kitten in the litter, not 60% smaller than average. This kitten of yours is *way* too small to just have the common every day title of runt of the litter.

Most ethical breeders when they get a situation like this where a kitten is vastly undersized, rehome these type of cats for free, as basically, they are not  well I dont want to say not fit for sale but there must be an underlying reason a cat is two thirds under weight. Ethical breeders dont sell these cats on for full price. Most good breeders would make sure they are neutered before rehoming them to ensure they can never be bred from.

Many growth stunted cats go on to develop health problems in later life, not all, but many. I have just checked this with a vet nurse friend and she confirmed it, and it also ties in with my own experience of growth stunted cats. She herself has had two growth stunted cats and had massive vet bills with one and is looking at large vet bills with her second one. This ties in with my experiences too although I knew why mine were growth stunted.

Thats why breeders rehome cats like this for free, and usually to people who understand what they could be taking on, and always with a long and frank warning about problems that could occur down the line.

I have a friend who breeds Norwegian Forest Cats, and she had a healthy litter last year but one little guy failed to grow. He was fine for the rest, just tiny. She kept him till around 26 weeks (and around 1500grams so not quite as tiny as your girl) then she rehomed him to an understanding family for free, with a warning of he could develop problems in later life, and I will take him back should this happen and should you want to give him back.

In my opinion that is the only ethical and honest thing for a breeder to do.

I have just got off the phone with my BSH breeder friend and she agrees with me 100%.

In your shoes, I would be talking to the breeder.

I feel you have been sold something without knowing what you have been sold and that is not your fault, it is *100% the breeders fault*. The very least this breeder should do is offer you your money back. Even at that. well. I am glad you sound like a lovely person. This cat may need a lovely owner down the line. If you do not already have this kitten insured do so now. PLEASE! You may really get your moneys worth out of it. Do not wait with insurance till this particular cat develops some health complaint or another as that something (and where it came from) will not be covered by the pet insurance, which could leave you pretty much being unable to claim anything.

I wish you (and your kitty) all the best !!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

BSH said:


> At 6 months old Willow (female) weighed in at 2.6 Kg and Darwin at 3.3 Kg.
> 
> Today, aged 7 Months and a week (32 weeks) old, Willow weighs 3.1 Kg and Darwin is 4 Kg.


I would say those are pretty "text book" weights for BSHs at those ages.

(So you get the weekly "tje says my kittens are a good weight" t-shirt.  lol. )

20% less than normal is small... 40% less than normal is very small... the OP's kitten is (if my maths serves me rightly) 60% less than it should be. Thats... well it would scare me -- and I don't scare easily with small kittens -- even if they are days old and motherless and covered in fleas and ringworm.

:


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Hi Shelley,

Thought this might help for comparison too....just weighed my kittens....

8 month old Silver Spotted girl - 4kg

7 month old Lilac Self - 3.5 kg

I know from a recent Vet check that my neuter boy is 6kg and my spayed female is 5.5 kg at 2 1/2 years old.

The 'runt' (don't really like that word ) in my litter this year was 1.12kg at her 12 week vaccination. She weighed 74g at birth, so small for a Bsh. However, she is now owned by my sister and has never had any health problems, albeit she is still smaller than the others in the litter. 

Hope all stays well with your girl


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

2flowers said:


> The 'runt' (don't really like that word ) in my litter this year was 1.12kg at her 12 week vaccination. She weighed 74g at birth, so small for a Bsh. However, she is now owned by my sister and has never had any health problems, albeit she is still smaller than the others in the litter.


If that's your "runt" (dislike that word too, lol) you're doing extremely well. 1120grams at 12 weeks is such a tinyyyy margin off of text book, that it is for all intents and purposes still text book. I would no way never expect a cat of this size to have any health issues whatsoever as she is a standard 100% normal weight. The OP's kitten is (about) 60% underweight. Problems here would not suprise me in the least.

As a breeder... would you sell a 6 month old 1000gram kitten for a normal selling price and not mention a word to the buyers about its 'lack of size'?


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Tje said:


> If that's your "runt" (dislike that word too, lol) you're doing extremely well. 1120grams at 12 weeks is such a tinyyyy margin off of text book, that it is for all intents and purposes still text book. I would no way never expect a cat of this size to have any health issues whatsoever as she is a standard 100% normal weight. The OP's kitten is (about) 60% underweight. Problems here would not suprise me in the least.


Tje, I was very lucky that all 6 kittens were extremely healthy, even her the smallest, and in fact she was the first to learn everything in the litter, so what she lacked in size, she made up for in will power! 

I agree that that Shelley's kitten is very tiny and I do hope that her girl doesn't have any long-term health issues. She has been seen by a vet and he appears to be happy with her general health, so at the moment there is no immediate cause for concern.



Tje said:


> As a breeder... would you sell a 6 month old 1000gram kitten for a normal selling price and not mention a word to the buyers about its 'lack of size'?


I personally would never sell a kitten unless I was 100% happy with all aspects of their health and development (size being one of them).


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

2flowers said:


> I personally would never sell a kitten unless I was 100% happy with all aspects of their health and development (size being one of them).


thanks for answering! and that's very reassuring to hear, and I think that is the "right" stance to take!! :thumbsup:

(right as in: proper, ethical, responsible, caring, basically.... just the way it should be )


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Huge thanks for all the links to the weight charts and the weights of your own kittens folks, its definatley helped me get some good comparison information! 

Well at least I do have her insured should anything bad happen and I've got grounds to go back to the breeder. The stubborn part of me kind of wants to have it out with her, but I have Lotus now and I'd pay double for her again just to have her as she fits in so well with my 3 boys.

I'll have to post her weight progress each month, I was also thinking of starting a height chart too, just so I can be sure she is progressing, even slightly! 

I dont mind how big she is, as much as I love the chunky teddy bear look, it's the BSH personality I love most  Will keep you all updated


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Hiya Im in Essex to...your right it isnt that bad lol 

where about did you buy her from? IVe been looking to buy a tippy for ages also looking for atippy stud 

MY british kittens weighed 1kg at 12weeks old.........so she sounds VEry small?? Mum isnt the biggest of british cats, I thought she was big, however meeting all the other british cats she isnt that big, have you contacted the breeder?


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> Huge thanks for all the links to the weight charts and the weights of your own kittens folks, its defiantly helped me get some good comparison information!
> 
> Well at least I do have her insured should anything bad happen and I've got grounds to go back to the breeder. The stubborn part of me kind of wants to have it out with her, but I have Lotus now and I'd pay double for her again just to have her as she fits in so well with my 3 boys.
> 
> ...


You are welcome 

Personally I don't think height monitoring is necessary and would be very difficult to measure accurately on a wriggling cat! Weekly weights are a good idea. I used the kitchen scales until they didn't fit on it anymore. Now I weigh myself eek, then weigh myself again holding the cat at the same time in the same place weekly, before they have eaten.

As for insurance, great to hear she is insured. I would make sure it is "for life" insurance. If it isn't they will only cover her for 1 year for a specific illness and if she developed a lifelong (chronic) illness, you would be left with big bills. There are lots of threads on here on pet insurance.

She sounds a lovely wee cat. Any chance of some photos of her? BB looks lovely


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## Soupie (Sep 2, 2008)

I do think Shelley's kit is underweight for her age BUT comparing a silver tipped kit to selfs for weight and size in unhelpful. Tippies are smaller to start with than Selfs - FACT! They take a lot longer to develop, mature and fill out. I breed silvers and also have selfs and it is very noticeable although the silvers tend to catch up by about 2 years. So whilst the kit does need to do some catching up Shelley, please don't ever expect her to match a self kitten such as a blue for size and weight!!


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

Soupie, you are right self's are generally larger and develop faster than tippies. Interestingly, at the last show I was at, Willow won a side class over a beautiful tipped girl, who was the same age but quite a bit bigger than my lilac self girl.... The blues of the same age at the show, were of course considerably weightier than both


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Soupie said:


> I do think Shelley's kit is underweight for her age BUT comparing a silver tipped kit to selfs for weight and size in unhelpful. Tippies are smaller to start with than Selfs - FACT! They take a lot longer to develop, mature and fill out. I breed silvers and also have selfs and it is very noticeable although the silvers tend to catch up by about 2 years. So whilst the kit does need to do some catching up Shelley, please don't ever expect her to match a self kitten such as a blue for size and weight!!


I was comparing to silver, one of mine is silver, one of my friends breed self couloureds and my other friend (where my older girl comes from) breeds silvers.

I could buy into the "smaller" arguement, but I have never seen (or even heard of) of smaller by 60% silver. Have you?

Assuming you agree ofcourse that 2.5kg would be a normailish weight for a 6 month old silver?? If you do, then Shelly's cat is 60% smaller than would be expected. If you don't agree with the +- 2.5kilo average at 6months, would you mind stating what you do feel would be normal (ish)?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Apologies to the OP for taking things slightly off-track but there's an interesting page on 'miniature' (and other) cats on my favourite feline web site, messybeast.com, for anyone interested in reading which certainly gives some indicators as to why the lovely sounding little girl is so small.

Absolutely no offence to any BSH tipped breeders here - they're one of my favourite colours of BSH and one of these days I *will* own one! - but if you ever see an exceptionally small BSH it's invariably a tipped. Though poorly understood, the inhibitor gene (which gives tipped their colouration/pattern) also appears in many cases to inhibit, to some extent, bone (size) and general size overall. This can also be the case with silver tabbies which are often smaller than their self/bi-colour/etc counterparts. And before anyone jumps on me I know there are some huge silver BSH cats out there  I imagine that the OP's female is a rather extreme example of this phenomena (for want of a better term).

I've a few long standing breeder/friends who have tipped and maintaining size in their lines, particularly with the much smaller gene pool available to them as, generally speaking, outcrossing to other colours isn't done, is a bit of an uphill struggle. One of these friends actually had a litter two years ago with an exceptionally small female (admittedly, she was given to a family member) who, I'm told, grew "some" from about six months old to a year but rather than growing too much in stature, she gained weight and rounded out giving the overall cobby appearance of a BSH but without growing very much in stature.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I imagine that the OP's female is a rather extreme example of this phenomena (for want of a better term).


I do too, and it find it quite horrifying that a breeder would sell a kitten like this and not even mention the buyers that all is not as it should be (more accurately is FAR from what it should be). I will probably get hung out to dry (again, lol) for saying it but this breeder is FAR from ethical. I am quite disgusted by this post. Not at the OP, at the breeder.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Soupie said:


> I do think Shelley's kit is underweight for her age BUT comparing a silver tipped kit to selfs for weight and size in unhelpful. Tippies are smaller to start with than Selfs - FACT! They take a lot longer to develop, mature and fill out. I breed silvers and also have selfs and it is very noticeable although the silvers tend to catch up by about 2 years. So whilst the kit does need to do some catching up Shelley, please don't ever expect her to match a self kitten such as a blue for size and weight!!


Hey Soupie, I wonder if I could ask you something. 

You see I have just been contacted by someone else with a similar issue to the OP the bsh kitten they are thinking of buying is very much on the small side (IMO that is). They had read my post yesterday and kind of decided not to buy, but then they read yours and are now a bit confused as they think we are saying two different things, though I am sure we aren't  .

So basically my question is... would you be willing to go down on record as saying what an acceptable weight for a 6month old silver/tipped is ?

I hate asking this, I know better than anyone how tricky sticking your neck out on this forum can be (hahahaaa) but just to help those with less knowledge than us would you mind taking a stab at what an acceptable weight for a 6 month old should be?

For the record I said that I would be looking for a 6 month old BSH of any colour to weigh around 2.5 kilos minimum, but since certain colours/patterns can be smaller I would possibly consider a 2 kilo 6 month old, but wouldhave to do FAR more research first.

Just looking for safe rough rule of thumb minimums here not rigid rules set in stone or stated to the exact gram, just ballpark numbers really .

 thanks heaps :thumbup:


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> Apologies to the OP for taking things slightly off-track but there's an interesting page on 'miniature' (and other) cats on my favourite feline web site, messybeast.com, for anyone interested in reading which certainly gives some indicators as to why the lovely sounding little girl is so small.


Great site, lots of interesting info to read (have bookmarked it)!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

MaryA said:


> There is a sticky at the top of this forum :- Kittens - sexing, weight chart and more (Sorry I don't know how to add a link) But there isn't a chart... I've been concerned about my NFCx as she has been so picky. A chart or info on expected weight would have been useful.


my friend breeds NFCs, but not crosses (she is also a FIFe judge so knows her onions) ... I could ask her for a table for NFC growth rates for you, but am not sure how the fact that yours is crossed will affect/deviate from purebred NFCs. Do you know what your girl is crossed with?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

2flowers said:


> Great site, lots of interesting info to read (have bookmarked it)!


messybeast is a fantastic cat website, she has loads of great info on there on every subject you can imagine. I am shocked everytime I come across a breeder who likes it, because I always thought it was too slanted to the rescue side (my world, hehe).


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## MaryA (Oct 8, 2010)

Tje said:


> my friend breeds NFCs, but not crosses (she is also a FIFe judge so knows her onions) ... I could ask her for a table for NFC growth rates for you, but am not sure how the fact that yours is crossed will affect/deviate from purebred NFCs. Do you know what your girl is crossed with?


That would be great Tje.  Unfortunately I don't know what she is crossed with. She weighed 2.85Kg at exactly 6 months. Had she not been a fussy eater, I think she would have weighed more. My fault for not working her likes/dislikes out sooner. My bad. :frown:


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> Hiya Im in Essex to...your right it isnt that bad lol
> 
> where about did you buy her from? IVe been looking to buy a tippy for ages also looking for atippy stud
> 
> MY british kittens weighed 1kg at 12weeks old.........so she sounds VEry small?? Mum isnt the biggest of british cats, I thought she was big, however meeting all the other british cats she isnt that big, have you contacted the breeder?


I bought her from the mum of the breeder I got my blue from as he had no issues and is a great little guy. The daughter doesn't breed British anymore and I'd enquired about getting a friend for Bentley, so she told me her mum had a litter of black tipped.

I haven't contacted her and have decided not to. I love Lotus and I chose the smallest kitten (something I'd never do had I not been so taken with her big persona  ), so I'm just going to go with it. Only if she actually gets unhealthy will I then go back to her. Right now she's racing around the lounge after Bentley, so no signs of that yet


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Oh thanks Soupie, 2flowers and gskinner, it's good to know that she should be slightly smaller than the selfs! Though she is still on the titchy side, it's good to know that they are slow growers. It gives me some hope for progress 

It was interesting to read the messy beasts site too! Its now on my favourites list  also interesting to hear why the tipped can be smaller! This has been very useful, puts my mind at ease ever so slightly


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

I understand that the tippys, even the bi-colours being smaller than the selfs (my bis are to) howevfer any kitten that ive bred s been at least 1kg by 11-13weeks old, 1kg for any kit at 6months old cant be right??? surely???


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> I understand that the tippys, even the bi-colours being smaller than the selfs (my bis are to) howevfer any kitten that ive bred s been at least 1kg by 11-13weeks old, 1kg for any kit at 6months old cant be right??? surely???


of course it's not right. It's far from right. It's frightening. It's hideous. It speaks volumes of the bad things happening with the silver colours of the breed. But try to get any breeders to come out and say that openly, and they won't. In fact, they will string up (or try to, haha  ) the likes of me who do say it.

When normal people talk of normal cats that are "smaller" than their counterparts, they're generally talking of a cat that is a few hundred grams lighter than it should be, or lighter than the norm. Not a cat that should be around 2.5kg weighing only 1 kilo. That's just hidoeusly & very worrying small and 100% wrong. But you will always get breeders trying to condone this kind of stuff by playing it down. It's called "brushing it under the carpet".

As for this breeder selling this cat for full price and not even telling the the OP it is far from normal... even more disgusting!!

Again though, people won't openly condemn.

Which is a real pity, because it does make other inexperienced cat owners (inexperienced kitten buyers) think this kind of stuff is possibly ok and normal.

It's disgusting and sick!


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Well Im glad that it wasnt just me thinking it!

I mean my British is 'small' but she is still 'big' if you know what I mean, to other breeds, compared to a boy, isnt much use as the boys are bigger than girls anyway, but she is smaller than my friends colourpoints & self queens, still a lump though


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

Taylorbaby said:


> Well Im glad that it wasnt just me thinking it!
> 
> I mean my British is 'small' but she is still 'big' if you know what I mean, to other breeds, compared to a boy, isnt much use as the boys are bigger than girls anyway, but she is smaller than my friends colourpoints & self queens, still a lump though


Nooooooooo TB, it is ABSOLUTELY not just you thinking it. I have to laugh at the euphemisms used in cases like this, bit on the small side my Aunty Frannie this cat is hideously undersized, and the breeder is bang out of order to sell this cat (for any price, let alone full price) and not even let on to naïve (or rather less experienced in cats) new owners that all is FAR from it should be. And no amount of sweeping that under the carpet will change that FACT! It is just SUCH a pity that so few breeders on here will stick their necks out and comment on posts like this (but the same people will often go to GREAT lengths to continually give bad breeding ethics and bad breeders the benefit of the doubt, go figure!). The lack of breeders speaking out in issues like this gives the impression to the less experienced cat people that there maybe is a justifiable reason a cat like this is so small and can be sold on. Nothing justifies this. Its wrong wrong wrong.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

what did the vet say about her? could she have dwarfism? 

is very odd?cant add much more tje lol you say it all!


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I almost want to start a separate thread as I'm acutely aware of not wanting to be insensitive to this kitten's owner and the kitten herself sounds like a smashing wee thing who's full of beans and long may that continue to be the case.

The issue, however, of the kitten's breeder 'fudging' (as the OP mentioned) the kitten's date of birth/age and not the slightest mention at the time of purchase that the kitten was severely undersized for her age is unforgiveable. Simple as. And to call this kitten "a bit on the small side" is hideously misleading. I do understand that people don't wish to cause alarm and be insensitive and so the tendency might be to 'downplay' - I really *do* understand that - but this should never detract from calling into question the ethics of the kitten's breeder; let alone the message it gives out to prospective purchasers and, moreover, to newer breeders who are still developing a feel for what is right and what is wrong. For the most part, newer breeders' ideals and ethics are shaped by how more established breeders behave. We ,as breeders, do ourselves no favours either in the short or long term by downplaying issues such as these.


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## 2flowers (Jan 24, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I'm acutely aware of not wanting to be insensitive to this kitten's owner and the kitten herself sounds like a smashing wee thing who's full of beans and long may that continue to be the case.


My sentiments echo this!

I agree that is very disappointing that the OP was not made aware by the breeder of just how small her girl was for her age as then she could have made an informed decision and done more research before deciding whether she wanted to proceed with giving her a home. The reason I posted my kittens weights was indeed to illustrate to the OP what a 'normal weight' for a similar aged kitten should be. I would never condone anyone selling an underweight kitten .

As I said to Tje, I personally as a breeder would not let a kitten leave me unless I was sure all was as it should be with it's development and it was of a healthy weight for its age. In fact, that is why my smallest girl went to my sister, as Tje said she wasn't actually all that small in the end, but I wanted her to have a home where I could see how she developed (I also secretly wanted to keep her, so an added bonus too). She's a lovely kitten and I take much pleasure in seeing her grow up .


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

2flowers said:


> I agree that is very disappointing that the OP was not made aware by the breeder of just how small her girl was for her age


So true!



2flowers said:


> The reason I posted my kittens weights was indeed to illustrate to the OP what a 'normal weight' for a similar aged kitten should be.


Me too... although there are small variances in colours and that can and should be pointd out ... the point is... the OP asked to get a rough idea of what's normal, and those of us who gave the weights of our BSHs display what is (more or less) normal. It was *never* unhelpful (as was suggested earlier) to do this. It is very helpful. The "it's unehlpful to compare with solids and bi-colours" if anything in this thread is or was unhelpful it was that comment, as it does make less epxerienced prospective kitten buyers wonder if 1000grams 6 month old isn't that bad afterall.

The size difference between silvers and solid/bi is far less than the difference between Shelly's cat and a normal sized one.



2flowers said:


> I would never condone anyone selling an underweight kitten .


I know, and I for one totally respected you for coming right out and saying that earlier on in the thread. :thumbsup: Too many breeders could help if they aired their views, or stuck their necks out, on threads like this, but they don't. Which gives inexperienced kitten buyers the idea that it can't be that big a deal. Couple that with the culture in here of bending over backwards to "give the benefit of the doubt" to bad breeders (bad breeding ethics) and well... cat welfare in general suffers. (that is *not* aimed at you personally 2Flowers, just a general observation)

I am just happy this kitten in this post went to loving, concerned and ethical people like the OP ... it doesn't bear thinking about what could happen if a cat like this was bred from, or went to people who couldn't afford pet insurance or vet bills or what not. And Shelly is head over heels in love with her wee cat so that is the main thing!


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

gskinner123 said:


> I almost want to start a separate thread as I'm acutely aware of not wanting to be insensitive to this kitten's owner and the kitten herself sounds like a smashing wee thing who's full of beans and long may that continue to be the case.
> 
> The issue, however, of the kitten's breeder 'fudging' (as the OP mentioned) the kitten's date of birth/age and not the slightest mention at the time of purchase that the kitten was severely undersized for her age is unforgiveable. Simple as. And to call this kitten "a bit on the small side" is hideously misleading. I do understand that people don't wish to cause alarm and be insensitive and so the tendency might be to 'downplay' - I really *do* understand that - but this should never detract from calling into question the ethics of the kitten's breeder; let alone the message it gives out to prospective purchasers and, moreover, to newer breeders who are still developing a feel for what is right and what is wrong. For the most part, newer breeders' ideals and ethics are shaped by how more established breeders behave. *We ,as breeders, do ourselves no favours either in the short or long term by downplaying issues such as these*.


I think it goes without saying that I 100% agree with every word you said (*and* applaude you for saying it :thumbup...

with reference to the last sentence though, I agree ofcourse with the longterm negatives this kind of issue brings with it... however, for the breeder .. well she/he probably does think in the short term that this was a very wise and canny sale she made. Full price for a kitten that should have been rehomed for free... the breeder is probably laughing all the way to the bank!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

I find it interesting to note that the tippies with their smaller genepool are smaller than the selfs.
Two of the signs of inbreeding depression are slow growth rate and smaller adult size.


I think the OPs cat sounds like some sort of proportional dwarf. Unless there is some reason for her smaller then normal size, chronic diarrhoea or other chronic infection as a very young kitten, or heart disease maybe.


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

To add, I agree with Tje, a small kitten like this should have been given away or heavily discounted and not full price, unless of course it was just slightly smaller when with the breeder and has not really grown.


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

lauren001 said:


> I find it interesting to note that the tippies with their smaller genepool are smaller than the selfs.Two of the signs of inbreeding depression are slow growth rate and smaller adult size.


lol, so glad you said that and not me, otherwise WW3 would be around the corner. I know breeders hate hearing this kind of thing, especially if it's what they breed. It might also explain why people are reluctant to comment on threads like this. Cos you just get the "not true, my silver/tippy is huge and weighs 6 kilos and isn't even 9 months old yet" type of responses,,, breeders have vested interests in sweeping the truth in a post like this right under the carpet.



lauren001 said:


> To add, I agree with Tje, a small kitten like this should have been given away or heavily discounted and not full price


yep, sick. And the fact it wasn't even neutered? Although I agree with waiting till she's bigger to neuter, it is worrying if this kitten hadn't been rehomed to someone as ethical as the OP, that she could be used as breeding female. All I can say is EEEEEK!


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> what did the vet say about her? could she have dwarfism?
> 
> is very odd?cant add much more tje lol you say it all!


Vet didn't speculate, he does if he's got a theory normally, very honest guy  He just said that over the next 6 months she has potential to grow more, so we should remain optimistic about her size increase, especially as she has such a good appetite


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

> I am just happy this kitten in this post went to loving, concerned and ethical people like the OP ... it doesn't bear thinking about what could happen if a cat like this was bred from, or went to people who couldn't afford pet insurance or vet bills or what not. And Shelly is head over heels in love with her wee cat so that is the main thing!


Aw thanks, we love and would never dream of it! She's insured to the hilt (all mine are - I'm a paranoid cat mum) and is kind of like a surrogate baby, the O/H actually spends more time checking Lotus has everything she needs than paying attention to me at mo!  x


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Today's weigh in = 1.2 kg. So we have some slow progress 

She's still tearing about the place like a madwoman and I think I've read just about every article on dwarfism in cats that's out there. The boys adore her and even let her sit on them a she lives curling up and sleeping on top of them?

All her fur is still thick and full, good poops, bright eyes, no shortness in the legs, she's just like having a perfectly formed miniature cat. As it's so cold I've bought her an extra small dog jumper to wear at night (she no longer wants to snuggle her heated teddy, instead preferring to run around with Bentley).

We'll head back to the vets in the new year and ask him to run a few tests, just so we're prepared the years to come.


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## BSH (Jul 28, 2010)

Glad to hear she is doing well. She sounds a little poppet!


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Update, we have a weight of 1.3 now, but no movement from that for the past week. She's eating like a horse, bright eyed and suitably bushy tailed, she's been chasing Bentley around all day.

Also on a developmental note, she has gained her more plush 'grown up' fur and even though she's puny looks less kitteny. No calling yet, though from what I have been reading that may never happen. 

Booking in at the vets this week for our 'spay or not to spay' check up and to kick off an investigation into why she is so small.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

how old is she now? thats good about her weight! i dont normally say this but I think id give her a couple more months before spaying? just incase??
What sort of tests will they do? do you know if the breeder has prodce any other small kits?


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## Tje (Jan 16, 2010)

300grams in the space of a month is... well, it's bloody good!!! I mean she is at the age where kitten growth would be tailing off slightly anyway as she moves more towards adulthood ... so to my (albeit uneucated and untrained ears) that sounds pretty damn good to me!!! 

And I dont think the fact she isnt calling is strange at all... not yet anyway. 

All in all... a postive update I would say :thumbup:


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## alisondalziel (Oct 8, 2008)

That sounds great!! :thumbup:


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Thanks peeps  

We've been conducting a regime of food food food, alongside play play play. And possibly then more food food food  Although I cant let her kibble graze all the time (Bentley will eat it) she has the lounge to herself while I'm working, so she gets a good few hours of chow time outside of her 5/6 (small/med sized) meals a day and when I come back the kibble is always gone 

From what I've read on here I'm aware that some people have reported calling from 6 months on, so I've been looking out for it as I'd really hate for her to be stressed.


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## Taylorbaby (Jan 10, 2009)

Shelley Cat Lover said:


> Thanks peeps
> 
> We've been conducting a regime of food food food, alongside play play play. And possibly then more food food food  Although I cant let her kibble graze all the time (Bentley will eat it) she has the lounge to herself while I'm working, so she gets a good few hours of chow time outside of her 5/6 (small/med sized) meals a day and when I come back the kibble is always gone
> 
> From what I've read on here I'm aware that some people have reported calling from 6 months on, so I've been looking out for it as I'd really hate for her to be stressed.


ive never had a cat call so early, 9 months was the earliest for my babies! 
she is doing raelly well! :thumbup:

Ecit: my british girl didnt call till 11 months


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Not sure yet what the tests will be specifically. Our nice vet just said that we should investigate if she doesn't get much bigger. From what I've read it could be anything from pituitary gland (prob spelt wrong there) to hyperthyroidism, even the dreaded FIP, which can stunt growth too (though she shows none of the wet or dry symptoms).

Personally I'm hoping she's a one off 'small but perfectly formed'. My step mum is 4ft11 and other than shopping in the kids section for trousers there's nothing wrong with her


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## Shelley Cat Lover (Jan 23, 2009)

Taylorbaby said:


> ive never had a cat call so early, 9 months was the earliest for my babies!
> she is doing raelly well! :thumbup:
> 
> Ecit: my british girl didnt call till 11 months


Excellent, as the vet and I were hoping to leave her as long as possible to let her grow as big as she can!


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## lauren001 (Jun 30, 2008)

Queens can call as early as 4 months.

She will start calling once the days get a bit longer, most cats but not all, have a period of not calling in autumn/winter.


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