# Do you trust your labrador?



## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

I have always trusted bailey, and will. But reading on google has made me worry.:frown2:

Taylor and dexter always take bailey out the back garden and play together or in the kitchen, I don't always watch, because I trust my children and they know what they can and can't do. 

Since we go bailey we've pulled her tail, hair ears,so she's full used to it and nt bothered. We did this so if godforbid one of the kids did, it wouldn't bother her.

So do you trust your lab?


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

I would trust Kes supervised around kids, although she's no lab. I would never trust her unsupervised, it's just not worth it. Even if they don't mind people pulling their tail etc. you never know if that day will be the day they're in a bad mood.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I wouldn't trust any dog 100% with a child I'm afraid. It would take a lot to push mine into reactiving in a *negative* way, but it's just not worth risking it. 

My niece is a complete pest with my dogs, she never leaves them alone. A few years ago, when I just had the two, she persisted in pestering Indie who just wanted to be left alone to sleep. She was laid by my side, next to the chair I was sat in, and I told my niece several times to leave her alone as she wanted to sleep. My mother did nothing to back that up, she was watching her at the time for my brother, and when I took my eyes off her for a second my niece poked Indie in the eye to wake her up. Indie gave a huge Harumpffff, got up and walked away from the situation. My niece shot backwards and literally [email protected] herself with fright from the noise. My mother immediately thought Indie had attacked my niece, which is just not something that she would do. If it had been a dog with a dodgy temperament, she could well have been bitten, having been bitten three times as a child from dogs that should have been better supervised and/or kept away from strangers and definitely children, I just wouldn't risk it with any dog.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> I would trust Kes supervised around kids, although she's no lab. I would never trust her unsupervised, it's just not worth it. Even if they don't mind people pulling their tail etc. you never know if that day will be the day they're in a bad mood.


Yeah I'm feeling paranoid now. They even play dress up with her lol. But i think I'm going to stop it all


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I wouldn't trust any dog 100% with a child I'm afraid. It would take a lot to push mine into reactiving in a *negative* way, but it's just not worth risking it.
> 
> My niece is a complete pest with my dogs, she never leaves them alone. A few years ago, when I just had the two, she persisted in pestering Indie who just wanted to be left alone to sleep. She was laid by my side, next to the chair I was sat in, and I told my niece several times to leave her alone as she wanted to sleep. My mother did nothing to back that up, she was watching her at the time for my brother, and when I took my eyes off her for a second my niece poked Indie in the eye to wake her up. Indie gave a huge Harumpffff, got up and walked away from the situation. My niece shot backwards and literally [email protected] herself with fright from the noise. My mother immediately thought Indie had attacked my niece, which is just not something that she would do. If it had been a dog with a dodgy temperament, she could well have been bitten, having been bitten three times as a child from dogs that should have been better supervised and/or kept away from strangers and definitely children, I just wouldn't risk it with any dog.


See my children aren't like that, they know when I say enough they do, they normally just lie on the floor with her n snuggle.


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## Jimjams84 (Nov 27, 2012)

I trust jasper, yes.. But would never leave him alone with any kids as he is still only 14weeks and still mouthing so wouldnt want him to nip anyone even though he doesnt mean it


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## Kimbamocca (Dec 30, 2011)

I trust my Labrador but i would never leave her on her own with a child. I am convinced you can never be 100% sure with ANY dogs.
And I would never allow children to lay on a dog or to tease him, nor to dress him up. They are dogs and not "barbie dolls", you just have to respect them


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Please don't pull your dog's tail or ears, for any reason - I doubt your dog enjoys it!

I trust my Labrador but I don't trust kids 


I would never leave my dog alone with kids, unsupervised. Never.

A while back one of my best mates brought her three young children over for the afternoon. The kids adore dogs and wanted to meet Dexter. The kids were aged between 3 and 9. Dex was amazing with them - totally amazing.

The kids then tried to get him to go upstairs with them and of course I stopped them. But my friend said 'Oh it's fine, I don't mind - I can see how fab Dexter is.' I pointed out that NO dog should EVER be alone with children - full stop. 

Later on I had to intervene when we were all in the garden and I noticed that one of the kids was teasing Dex by holding out a stick and then yanking it back again just as Dex reached for it. I knew that any second Dex would jump up!


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Kimbamocca said:


> I trust my Labrador but i would never leave her on her own with a child. I am convinced you can never be 100% sure with ANY dogs.
> And I would never allow children to lay on a dog or to tease him, nor to dress him up. They are dogs and not "barbie dolls", you just have to respect them


I remember doing the Same with out goldie when I was younger, he toke everything I did to him


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> I remember doing the Same with out goldie when I was younger, *he toke everything I did to him*


I don't think any dog should have to take being dressed up, or having their tails and ears pulled. Sorry, but I really don't


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## Strawberryearth (Apr 5, 2012)

Betty is no labrador, but I don't trust her around kids full stop. We don't have kids, nor do any of my friends so she has never gotten used to them. We went to stay with some family over new year, they have 2x 2yr old girls. I kept Betty on lead whenever the girls were around. She is unsure of them, doesn't like their movements or the strange noises they make-it was safer (and came without saying, for me) to keep her completely under control around them.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Yeah I'm feeling paranoid now. They even play dress up with her lol. But i think I'm going to stop it all


I think it's fine to play dress up etc. so long as you look out for signs they might be getting stressed etc. Just be mindful and it should be fine. After looking at the child death stats from the USA, pretty much every single one was when the child was left without supervision, when supervised it's very rare.


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## andrea84 (Aug 16, 2012)

I would trust alfie but as for molly im not sure as she has only here a few months.
have to say though my children are always supervised around the dogs, not worth the risk for the dogs or my children


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## andrea84 (Aug 16, 2012)

andrea84 said:


> I would trust alfie but as for molly im not sure as she has only here a few months.
> have to say though my children are always supervised around the dogs, not worth the risk for the dogs or my children


oh forgot to add alfie isn't a lab but molly is


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

I would not trust ANY dog unsupervised around children. Its not the dogs i dont trust but the kids.

Dutch friend of mine had a friend who had a Lab- it BADLY bit a childs arm, a child it had grown up with, and loved. It was taken to the vets to be PTS. The vet found not one but 10 staples in its ear- I guess number ten was just too much for the poor dog, having not reacted to the previous 9. Dog was not PTS, child (should have been!!!) was never allowed unsupervised access to dog again. 

No matter how well you know/trust your dog/child they can do unexpected things.


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## GoldenShadow (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't really like that you've pulled her ears to get her used to it etc 

My friend had a lab who was epileptic and 9 when she adopted her son aged 11 months. He occasionally pulled on the dog or lent on him too hard and the dog would growl. Mummy explained growling meant son had done something that the dog didn't like and that it wasn't nice to do that, so stop. If he ever, ever did anything to deliberately upset the dog he got a telling off. Was never allowed to disturb the dog if he was in his bed etc that was dog and Mummy only zone. My dogs and this dog would tolerate ear and tail pulling but they shouldn't have to or be used to it, it is just their good nature as to why they tolerate it.

I wouldn't trust my lab or my golden. If food is wafted around at nose level I wouldn't blame them for having a nibble etc, not until they knew boundaries 100%. Even then they would always be supervised and the dog would be treated as another member of the family ie. given space and alone time.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I don't think any dog should have to take being dressed up, or having their tails and ears pulled. Sorry, but I really don't


I think many dogs don't mind being dressed up, I don't see anything wrong with it especially if you've brought the dog up from a pup so they're very used to handling.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Not hard! Just like being abit heavy hand stroking ect, and tbh she loves it! Iv not pulled her eats hard at all, like just slightly. Both trainers iv been to told e too.


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## Mehy (Jun 30, 2011)

In the house I will pop upstairs or do housework while the kids and the dog are in the living room. I have never really encouraged the kids to play with Murphy so he doesn't go looking for attention from them in the house. Now outside is completely different. In an open space they all get a bit wound up but either myself or dad stay to keep an eye. 
No two dogs are the same, no two labs are the same. It also comes down to knowing how your children act around the dog. 
I trust my boy and my kids. Although I wouldn't ask Murphy to watch the kids on a Friday night just yet


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

I do trust my dogs, (BCs, not labs), but I don't trust children not to provoke them so as a result I would never leave children unsupervised with a dog, however reliable it may be. Every dog has it's limit, and kids seem very good at finding it!

I don't like having my brother's kids round the dogs, as they just upset them. Mira actively hides when they come over, (I now let her escape to the safety of upstairs so she doesn't have to deal with them), and Scout, despite absolutely loving children, can get a bit stressed around them as they are deliberately very loud and often try and tease him.

My brother gets really angry with me if I ever try and say anything to the kids about it, don't get me wrong, I've never shouted at them or anything, but have tried to explain to my eldest nephew how he should behave around them, but my brother always takes offence. As a result, I tend to just keep the dogs in a different part of the house if they do come over.

It's a real shame, I really want the dogs to get used to being around children, but we just don't have the opportunity. I do hate seeing how frightened Mira can get around children, would really like to fix that.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> I have always trusted bailey, and will. But reading on google has made me worry.:frown2:
> 
> Taylor and dexter always take bailey out the back garden and play together or in the kitchen, I don't always watch, because I trust my children and they know what they can and can't do.
> 
> ...


Sorry I dont understand pulling a dogs ears and tail so she is used to it?

I understand ensuring you dog is used to having its ears / tail / etc handled and getting them used to showing a paw etc

Why not supervise your children? Teach them pulling ears / tails is NOT play and not accpetable?

No dog should be left alone with a child - Surely this is common sense 

What would happen if your child claimed Bailey bit her? What if your child got carried away and pushed Bailey over her threshhold?



xbaileyboox said:


> Yeah I'm feeling paranoid now. They even play dress up with her lol. But i think I'm going to stop it all


I used to push our fmaily cat around in a push chair when I was little and Millie wears a fleece so cant comment much on this 

But can you encourage your children to help with 'training' ie playing 'find it' (Hide a toy and encourage dog to find it) or Fetch or any sor tof interactive dog game which can help build up the relationship / bond between them ?


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Sorry I dont understand pulling a dogs ears and tail so she is used to it?
> 
> Why not supervise your children? Teach them pulling ears / tails is NOT play and not accpetable?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I thought it wasn't clear, my kids do not pull her tail or ears, my son isn't too keen on her 100% yet so he hardly touches her. My daughter is very grown up for her age and she asks to take bailey into the next room, where I can hear/see them (kitchen) to "train" her, which is her telling bailey to sit and leave it and down lol.

The only thing they dress her in is baileys clothes lol


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## mimi g (Mar 10, 2009)

I would never leave dogs/kids unsupervised. 
My 2 have not really had alot of exposure to children...Bailey would see our neice who lives over an hour away every now and then when he was a pup. He was very good with her but still a pup...i watched them like a hawk. One day my niece was playing with him with a toy, i told her to be careful if he gets giddy he might catch her hand by accident. She didnt listen and 2 mins later his puppytooth caught her finger..off she ran crying to her mum, Bailey was devastated and followed her with his head and tail down. 
When i have children there will be babygates going up and if i cant be in that room watching for any amount of time kids&dogs will be seperated.

Ive witnessed the same niece be nipped by the family jrt, she was trying to pick her up over and over and i was the only one who said something to her but she carried on because im not her mum. I was myself was bitten in the face by my aunties terrier as a toddler, no doubt i was harassing the dog, my mum had popped to the shop and left my much older bro watching me..i bet he was glued to the tv.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I trust Spencer as far as you can trust any dog. It's kids I generally don't trust. I don't believe any dog can ever be trusted 100%, they all have that point where they'll bite after all. Spen loves kids and lights up if one comes to see him but it doesn't mean he would never hurt one. And I'd hate for him to scratch a child or knock one over and the child to go crying that it's been bitten or attacked and be believed.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Yes, but it depends on the children  Wouldn't leave any dog alone with any child.

Scooter seems pretty bombproof with children, he absolutely loves them and has put up with a lot of pestering over the years! The school run was his favourite walk. I want to say I trust him 100% with kids but I would still not leave him alone with one, just in case they teased him beyond his threshold - fortunately I don't know any such children and wouldn't want to share their company!

Breeze tolerates children but is easily overwhelmed by lots of noise and attention so more for her sake than anything else I would limit her contact with children. She likes being fussed by quiet children and I've not known her to snap but I wouldn't push her, she wasn't socialised with them as a pup and she'd be the more likely one to snap of my two. Still can't see her doing it, she's a very mild-mannered girl.

Our Collie was not a fan of children and wouldn't think much of nipping me or my sister if we pestered her! She liked her space and children who respected that, but she wasn't a school run dog.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> I have always trusted bailey, and will. But reading on google has made me worry.:frown2:
> 
> Taylor and dexter always take bailey out the back garden and play together or in the kitchen, I don't always watch, because I trust my children and they know what they can and can't do.
> 
> ...


How well to you know dog body language? How can you tell if Bailey likes something (hint: a wagging tail doesn't mean the dog is happy). How can you tell if Bailey doesn't like something? Do you know what calming signals are and what they look like on your dog?

IMO the dogs who truly *like* children (as opposed to good-natured tolerance) are few and far between. Most family dogs learn to tolerate the family kids, but if you watch closely, the dog isn't really gravitating towards the kids, and given the choice, the dog often wouldn't choose on her own to interact with the kids.

The way you make a family dog safe is not by teaching the dog to "get used to" rude behavior, it's to build up tons of positive associations with children, so that when rude behavior from kids does happen, (which it will, I don't care how wonderful your kids are), the dog will see it as an anomaly and not the last straw.

Think of it as a bank account. You want to have a nice big, fat balance in the bank account (positive associations) so that when a withdrawal happens (rude behavior or accidental pain), the account doesn't go in to the red. And when a withdrawal does happen, make sure to build the account back up.

You can build positive associations with kids by getting the kids involved in stuff the dog likes. Fun training/play sessions, feeding, grooming (if the dog likes being groomed), etc.

The other way to make a family dog safe is to make sure that dog has stellar bite inhibition. This is mostly taught in puppyhood, but you can work on it somewhat in adulthood though impulse control exercises. Ian Dunbar has some good articles on bite inhibition.

I don't think the breed is relevant here TBH. Statistically labs bite a lot of kids.

Not because they are a breed prone to biting, but because so many people have them, and so many people think that labs are somehow immune from normal dog behavior like getting annoyed with annoying things (like ear pulling) and using teeth to get a point across when other warnings fail.

I've also noticed a tendency in several lab/goldie types for some OTT resource guarding. Don't know if this is a retrieving instinct gone awry with generations of bad breeding, or poor handling of a food driven dog, or what, but around here, a predominant majority of dogs who present with RG tend to be labs, goldens or mixes there of.

I don't have a lab, but I do have a lab mutt. He is the anomaly of the dog world who does actually like kids. I trust him the most. He sleeps in my son's bed and has shown me repeatedly that he can be trusted even in unexpected situations. However, even this dog, as much of a rock star as he is with kids, I will put him in my room to sleep if I notice he's not 100%, feeling a bit off, or sore.

Really it's about paying attention, being unbiasedly observant, knowing behavior, knowing your dog, and erring on the side of caution.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

ouesi said:


> How well to you know dog body language? How can you tell if Bailey likes something (hint: a wagging tail doesn't mean the dog is happy). How can you tell if Bailey doesn't like something? Do you know what calming signals are and what they look like on your dog?
> 
> IMO the dogs who truly *like* children (as opposed to good-natured tolerance) are few and far between. Most family dogs learn to tolerate the family kids, but if you watch closely, the dog isn't really gravitating towards the kids, and given the choice, the dog often wouldn't choose on her own to interact with the kids.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Most of the time it's bailey going to the kids for fuss/ play. She will bring her toys to them. But mostly Taylor, there like best friends, she will sit at the door waiting for Taylor to come back downstairs, she follows her around. She sleeps on the sofa with her.

I do get warey of her around other children, but the times she has, she's had a stroke if they offer, if not she doesn't bother them and goes the other way. Only thing is she gets abit excited and knocks my son over but he's only just 3 and tiny.

I'm not sure of the warning signs, I would love it if you told me?. Tbh when she's lay down chewing her bone ECt, she's not bothered by us, we take food off her and taught her leave it. She isn't bothered. Iv just toke her meaty bone off her because she's been eattin it for an hour, and she just sat wavy her tail and bum at me lol x


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> I have always trusted bailey, and will. But reading on google has made me worry.:frown2:
> 
> Taylor and dexter always take bailey out the back garden and play together or in the kitchen, I don't always watch, because I trust my children and they know what they can and can't do.
> 
> ...


google isn't the font of all knowledge:frown2:



xbaileyboox said:


> Not hard! Just like being abit heavy hand stroking ect, and tbh she loves it! Iv not pulled her eats hard at all, like just slightly. *Both trainers iv been to told e too.*


and change trainers.


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## princeno5 (Jun 5, 2010)

i trust my dog,but dont trust children with him,although saying that i dont trust anyone with my pets.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> I'm not sure of the warning signs, I would love it if you told me?. Tbh when she's lay down chewing her bone ECt, she's not bothered by us, we take food off her and taught her leave it. She isn't bothered. Iv just toke her meaty bone off her because she's been eattin it for an hour, and she just sat wavy her tail and bum at me lol x


This is what I'm talking about 
If you don't know the warning signs, how do you know she's not bothered by you taking food off of her? 
Again, a wagging tail does NOT mean the dog is happy. In fact as you describe it could be an appeasement signal in an attempt to get you to not take her bone away.

Dog body language is not rocket science, but it's also not something you can cover in a few forum posts. I suggest books and videos by folks like Turgid Rugaas and Brenda Aloff. Jean Donaldson has a few things on youtube I like too.


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## flyballcrazy (Oct 6, 2010)

I have never left my child now 15 alone with my dogs, not even now. Just not worth the risk. When my son was smaller I hated having children over to play, as most weren't dog savvy I would be worrying not for the child but my dogs, I would shut my dogs away.

Sorry but wouldn't be pulling my dogs ears/tail even if my trainer had told me too. Handle yes, pull no.


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## Redice (Dec 4, 2011)

I wouldn't trust children with my dogs rather than the other way round:shocked:


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

flyballcrazy said:


> I have never left my child now 15 alone with my dogs, not even now. Just not worth the risk. When my son was smaller I hated having children over to play, as most weren't dog savvy I would be worrying not for the child but my dogs, I would shut my dogs away.
> 
> Sorry but wouldn't be pulling my dogs ears/tail even if my trainer had told me too. Handle yes, pull no.


That's what I ment! Handle! Like examine them, flip them over ect, dcouldnt think of the word! Also examine her belly, teeth, paws ect


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Having seen the video of the toddler bouncing on the Rottweiller the other day and the VERY subtle signs the dog was giving of it's stress and dislike of the way it was being treated - I would advise never leave a dog and child alone together.

How many times have the reports been "Fido has never done that before, he really loves playing with the children".........

Well, I suspect in 99% of cases the dog has tried to tell the child/person that it wants them to stop, even got up and walked away, only to be followed and subjected to more torment then eventually the dog has snapped.

IMO no dog can be trusted 100%. And there is no such thing as the perfect child either.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

ouesi said:


> This is what I'm talking about
> If you don't know the warning signs, how do you know she's not bothered by you taking food off of her?
> Again, a wagging tail does NOT mean the dog is happy. In fact as you describe it could be an appeasement signal in an attempt to get you to not take her bone away.
> 
> Dog body language is not rocket science, but it's also not something you can cover in a few forum posts. I suggest books and videos by folks like Turgid Rugaas and Brenda Aloff. Jean Donaldson has a few things on youtube I like too.


She whole booty shakes when she's happy, when she's grumpy she sulks off to bed x


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

princeno5 said:


> i trust my dog,but dont trust children with him,although saying that i dont trust anyone with my pets.


This ^^^^^

Coupled with the fact that children may not be able to read the dog's body language, at least supervised a responsible adult can intervene


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Having seen the video of the toddler bouncing on the Rottweiller the other day and the VERY subtle signs the dog was giving of it's stress and dislike of the way it was being treated - I would advise never leave a dog and child alone together.
> 
> How many times have the reports been "Fido has never done that before, he really loves playing with the children".........
> 
> ...


My children are perfect, my son has autism, so he can be wary of things. But my daughter has perfect manors, she knows when I say something I mean it lol.

Can you send link of video please x


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Thais everyone, you've made me realise how naive iv been.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

My Lab with kids, yes.

My other dogs with kids, definitely not. They haven't had enough exposure to them.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

flyballcrazy said:


> I have never left my child now 15 alone with my dogs, not even now. Just not worth the risk. *When my son was smaller I hated having children over to play, as most weren't dog savvy I would be worrying not for the child but my dogs, I would shut my dogs away*.
> 
> Sorry but wouldn't be pulling my dogs ears/tail even if my trainer had told me too. Handle yes, pull no.


That's how I feel, I find a lot of my children's friends are not animal savvy at all (sign of the times I suppose) & will only allow them over for a couple of hours, the dogs stay in the kitchen & sun room after being allowed to meet & greet, the visitors usually go out to play, or in their rooms.


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> I have always trusted bailey, and will. But reading on google has made me worry.:frown2:
> 
> Taylor and dexter always take bailey out the back garden and play together or in the kitchen, I don't always watch, because I trust my children and they know what they can and can't do.
> 
> ...


I don't understand why you would pull her ears and tail as a precaution, she will let you do it, you are her owner, she trusts you. dosn't mean she will let other people/kids do it.

do I trust sophie with kids? yes, she used to live with 5. but would I leave her alone with a young/small child. no. I don't for a second think she would ever bite but she is quite an excitable dog so I would be scared she might knock a child over.


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## lipsthefish (Mar 17, 2012)

I wouldn't trust any children unsupervised with our dogs, I think it would be too easy for them to get hurt with them being tiny. As it is, they don't have a lot of kid experience, it's usually just my niece who brings her little ones to visit. Jack will go away, usually into his crate and just ignore them, Alfie is so excited by everything that he is crated because he will jump up and I'd be scared he scratched or knocked over the baby, Angel is a little bit curious and definitely the most gentle, she will give the baby a little lick on her hand and will fetch a toy for the toddler but when she's had enough she goes off to her crate too. I think I'm lucky that the kids have been brought up to respect dogs too so if Alfie and Jack are in their crates they won't go near them or try to tease but even so I wouldn't leave them alone.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> My children are perfect, my son has autism, so he can be wary of things. But my daughter has perfect manors, she knows when I say something I mean it lol.
> 
> Can you send link of video please x


Watch it on thedogtrainingsecret.com

btw, I have found that threatening to remove the PS3, Blackberry, Ipad and Laptop turns my 16 year old son into the "perfect" child


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I think it's daft to trust any dog with children because the dog will be put down, never the parent or the child for being irresponsible. I grew up with dogs and I knew the rules, if I broke them I wasn't allowed to play with the dogs anymore. My god daughters do not play with Molly as she's still very young and excitable but they can sit with her for cuddles after walk and feed her.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Watch it on thedogtrainingsecret.com
> 
> btw, I have found that threatening to remove the PS3, Blackberry, Ipad and Laptop turns my 16 year old son into the "perfect" child


Isitlickingtnelips/ yarning the sign therotti not liking it? I read when I first got bailey that was a sign there getting fed up?


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Dog Attack On Kid.OCT 2012.WARNING VERY OFFENSIVE! - YouTube

Omfg iv just sat here crying at this... Can't believe the owner just walked away!!


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> Isitlickingtnelips/ yarning the sign therotti not liking it? I read when I first got bailey that was a sign there getting fed up?


Yes, and I have to confess that I was unaware of it myself til I saw the video and I suspect there are more people who would not know about these signs than would.

Either way, I feel that it is the responsibility of an adult to keep both dog and child safe from each other. I am sure most children would not intentionally hurt a dog, but I think we sometimes expect far too much from our dogs. Presumably, if another dog did something they didn't like and would not stop after warnings, a dog might turn and nip. No harm done probably to another dog, but to a child? Ultimately, it is always the dog that will be punished.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

When Bonnie (a goldie) sees children she's generally very calm and submissive, in fact she once rolled onto her side when there was a small child in the woods once supervised by the parents. It depends on how the child is really, but I could trust Bonnie 100% with a child if they did nothing but cuddles and gentle stroking. The ear stapling would probably prompt her into action though  fortunately that'll never happen to find out what her reaction would have been.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

The more I read of this thread, the more I think this ought to changed to 'Do you trust children and parents?' and not a labrador.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> Dog Attack On Kid.OCT 2012.WARNING VERY OFFENSIVE! - YouTube
> 
> Omfg iv just sat here crying at this... Can't believe the owner just walked away!!


Thank god the dog only had hold of the child's trousers and they were able to get them off!

That video has truly upset me too!

Does the owner of the Rottie have children? Do they leave them unsupervised? Does the dog like playing with those children? Is that the first time that dog has behaved that way? Was the attack unprovoked? MORE IMPORTANTLY - what would have happened if there were no adults around to intervene?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

MollySmith said:


> The more I read of this thread, the more I think this ought to changed to 'Do you trust children and parents?' and not a labrador.


Or, parents, children and dogs? I think the breed is irrelevant in the wider context.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

My 2 kids have been brought up with dogs/ pups as was I, I trust them 100% to act accordingly & respect them, I have no problem leaving them alone in a room together, the dogs trust my children as they do myself. If I didn't or couldn't trust either the dogs wouldn't be here.
No way would I allow them to dress up, pull ears etc they wouldnt even consider doing that anyway, they cuddle up together while the kids watch tv, the odd game of fetch but mostly just cuddles. My kids are 4 & 7 and behave as I do. In all honesty the kids have no interest in the dogs as they have always been here, no novelty value etc they are our family 

I wouldn't trust someone else's kids or dogs!


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## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

I think kids and dogs can be a bad combination if they arent properly supervised. I have both extremes here. Heidi has bitten a child before who would not stop pestering her and Ive seen Adam get squeezed til he yelped by a little girl and still go back for more! Both these situations happened coz I had no control over the kids...not the dogs!
I always try and make kids sit down before stroking any of mine and I think this is a good policy. This means that the dog has to come to them and if they are told not to restrain the dog at all it can choose when to leave. Too many accidents are caused by kids running at dogs too fast or stopping them from getting away IMO.


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## ballybee (Aug 25, 2010)

Tummels only a wee bit labrador, but he adores kids, he's so gentle and patient with them  I obviously wouldn't leave them unsupervised(ok i have for a loo break but he was fast asleep as was the child) just in case.

Dan also loves kids but he's very bouncy and excited around them so needs to be observed.

I grew up in a family full of dogs so have always known how to behave, and would make sure any children they encounter know to behave too(so far apart from one little boy who gave Tummel a hug they've all been good).


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

I think the question is irrelevant, kids shouldn't be unsupervised with any dog, whether it be a Labrador or any other breed. 

:shocked:

Dogs cant say "go away" or "leave me alone" however 'trusted' the dog is!


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Not all children will fall under the uncontrollable, uneducated, screeching brat brigade  some do know how to behave. I think as a parent you know your children & your pets/ dogs and should be able to make the right judgment accordingly for all concerned.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Dog Attack On Kid.OCT 2012.WARNING VERY OFFENSIVE! - YouTube
> 
> Omfg iv just sat here crying at this... Can't believe the owner just walked away!!


Urgh, that is horrible. I hope the dog was PTS (but I doubt it looking at the owner).


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Not all children will fall under the uncontrollable, uneducated, screeching brat brigade  some do know how to behave. I think as a parent you know your children & your pets/ dogs and should be able to make the right judgment accordingly for all concerned.


That's exactly how I feel! My two adore bailey, and wouldn't do anything they've not been told is okay, Taylor will even sit snuggle and brush bailey till she falls asleep. X


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Dexter n bailey x


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

She's so submissive lol


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Taylor n bailey x


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I have not read all the replies. I do not think the breed has anything to do with it, it is the individual.
I am sure all of us that were brought up with family dogs survived playing with them unsupervised, in the same way that we survived playing on the street etc. People did not used to fuss! My daughter is 24 and still alive after being baby sat for years by a collie cross. She watched videos with her, accompanied her to the bathroom, played wild games and went for walks round the farm. She used to dress up my standard poodle as well but the collie was her special dog.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Blitz said:


> I have not read all the replies. I do not think the breed has anything to do with it, it is the individual.
> I am sure all of us that were brought up with family dogs survived playing with them unsupervised, in the same way that we survived playing on the street etc. People did not used to fuss! My daughter is 24 and still alive after being baby sat for years by a collie cross. She watched videos with her, accompanied her to the bathroom, played wild games and went for walks round the farm. She used to dress up my standard poodle as well but the collie was her special dog.


I did all that too with out goldie growing up lol used to take him for walks around the block, and sleep with him, he was a soft lump, he used to sleep at the bottom of my mum n dads bed, one night the had a fire in there bedroom, he didn't even wake up to tell them lol! Thankfully was only a small tiny fire, my dad woke up in time!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> Dog Attack On Kid.OCT 2012.WARNING VERY OFFENSIVE! - YouTube
> 
> Omfg iv just sat here crying at this... Can't believe the owner just walked away!!


Well to be fair I'm afraid if my dog had just gone after a child like that I wouldn't be hanging around the child with that same dog! Wouldn't be a case of not caring or not wanting to take responsibility, it just seems common sense to get the dog the hell away so it can't attack again and so the child isn't even more traumatised. I'm sure it wouldn't look good but better than a repeat attack.

Not saying that's what this dog owner did but there's no information on what happened after the attack.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Well to be fair I'm afraid if my dog had just gone after a child like that I wouldn't be hanging around the child with that same dog! Wouldn't be a case of not caring or not wanting to take responsibility, it just seems common sense to get the dog the hell away so it can't attack again and so the child isn't even more traumatised. I'm sure it wouldn't look good but better than a repeat attack.
> 
> Not saying that's what this dog owner did but there's no information on what happened after the attack.


I would of killed them both. :mad2:


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## Buzzard (Aug 10, 2012)

I think its easy to say never leave children and dogs unsupervised but in the real world with kids and a family dog it is not possible. I pop upstairs with the laundry, go to the loo etc and don't separate the kids and dog. Most of the time he is alseep on the sofa and they know to leave him be. My kids have been 'trained' to leave him alone when he doesn't want to play. I couldn't manage to separate them at every opportunity, it would be very difficult indeed. My children are 5 and 7 so old enough to know the rules.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Can't see the point of having a 'family' pet if it has to be moved away from the family every 5 minutes. Kids & dogs are great together, wouldn't have it any other way!


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## koolchick (Apr 5, 2011)

I think owners know their dog best and have an idea if it could turn I've had 2 dogs who I knew could turn. But you do hear of dogs biting for suposedly no reason so even the friendlyest dogs could. Having said that with my last dog and dog I have now both Boarder Terrier I would trust them both just giddy with everyone. I actually thought when I had my last dog maybe I should be more cautious when my cousin was here as it never even crossed my mind that he may turn on him. I just always assumed he would never turn and he never did. Now my cousin is 12 so I'm still same assuming my dog will never turn.

There are times when a dog behaves differently to what you would expect. My last dog once started barking at a woman who was stood looking onto a field we was on. He was on lead and I wouldn't of thought he would hurt her if off lead as he normally just barked if he was unsure but I didn't expect him to bark. Another time was the only time I was ever unsure if he'd bite someone tho he didn't. At my nans ready to go out the man next door came out who owned a dog my dog hated without the dog. My dog was barking at him I was holding his coller and the man came to stroke my dog. I've owned dogs all my life but wouldn't ever go to any that bark at me. I actually thought this could be the tie the one time he did try to bite but he went back to his giddy friendly self.


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## Buzzard (Aug 10, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Can't see the point of having a 'family' pet if it has to be moved away from the family every 5 minutes. Kids & dogs are great together, wouldn't have it any other way!


I agree with you. Kids would end up paranoid about dogs and I don't want that for my kids. Too many kids are terrified of dogs and it affects their lives a lot.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

Buzzard said:


> I agree with you. Kids would end up paranoid about dogs and I don't want that for my kids. Too many kids are terrified of dogs and it affects their lives a lot.


Its not about keeping them seperate or making children paranoid.

Its about using some common sense and the dangers of letting it become a acceptable habit leaving them together. If that makes sense - Its when it become habit that people in the house become more relaxed about things and accidents happen. I mean if 5 minutes is ok then surely 10 minutes is ok? and oh il just do this while im here etc etc

Of course every dog, child, parent and house hold are different so its up to parents to make a judgement call but personally I would never want it to be habit that I leave child and dog out of eyeshot.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

I was awful before I got bailey, I had got bitten when I was 14 by my then new dog. He was a staffy x, which is probs why I don't like them!, but anyway he escaped and got out into rescue, he showed awful temperament from the moment we got him at 18 weeks, he would fll on growl and snap at you.

He scared me of dogs, and tbh I'm still scared of small dogs. When I had bailey I was terrified of her biting me, I had to get personal trainer in to help me get over the fear, like I couldn't teach her down because of her nippin at my hands. Lol sounds pathetic!

But.. That is the only time I have ever been bitten or growled at. I was raised with dogs, my dad showed at crufts and bred goldies. We had bracon my first goldie way before I was born, he was the perfect childminder. But In them days it was obv that dad was Deffo the pack leader lol.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Its not about keeping them seperate or making children paranoid.
> 
> Its about using some common sense and the dangers of letting it become a acceptable habit leaving them together. If that makes sense - Its when it become habit that people in the house become more relaxed about things and accidents happen. I mean if 5 minutes is ok then surely 10 minutes is ok? and oh il just do this while im here etc etc
> 
> Of course every dog, child, parent and house hold are different so its up to parents to make a judgement call but personally I would never want it to be habit that I leave child and dog out of eyeshot.


:aureola: my 7 year old is in the conservatory with our three dogs and has been unsupervised for at least 30 minutes! Should I be worried :shocked:

Edited to add: I can't hear him gurgling in drool or getting licked to death so think he's safe doing his homework!


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> :aureola: my 7 year old is in the conservatory with our three dogs and has been unsupervised for at least 30 minutes! Should I be worried :shocked:
> 
> Edited to add: I can't hear him gurgling in drool or getting licked to death so think he's safe doing his homework!


Lol!!

Bailey sleeps in kitchen, does it mean my kids shouldn't go in there unless she attacks them because they woke her? Only attack theyd get is licked to death too! :thumbup1:She's like me she will just huff because she needs her beauty sleep


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> :aureola: my 7 year old is in the conservatory with our three dogs and has been unsupervised for at least 30 minutes! Should I be worried :shocked:
> 
> Edited to add: I can't hear him gurgling in drool or getting licked to death so think he's safe doing his homework!


Like I said every dog/ house hold and owner are different.

If thats the level of parental supervision your happy with then good for you.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

Never had a dog growing up so can't comment:

I have three friends scarred, 2 on the face one on their hand from their family dogs when growing up:
A GSD, a springer and a lab. All were unsupervised.

On the other hand my husband grew up with loads of different family dogs (most mongrels or labs), was left alone with them and nothing happened to him that he remembers.

When/If we have kids i wouldn't intend to leave them alone for any length of time unsupervised and by that i mean playing in the garden/living room etc- besides my dog is a follower and would probs stick by me.

We never knew how he would be with kids being a rescue and all- although he has a beautiful temperament. My husband had left him outside the local newsagents as he was buying the paper (hold different thread right there eh?) when he looks out to check on him a little girl was patting him on the head and cuddling him- he near sh*t it and ran out to speak to her parent (on his phone not giving a sh*t). 

Now he's met all the kids in my family and outwit of all ages from wee to teens and is pretty sweet with them. the little 4 year old across the road comes over sometimes to see him and i have taught her how to interact with him properly. She even does some of my training with him and he totally listens to her- and she is proud as punch when he is listening to her every word, but apart from anything else he's unaware of his body size and strength (thinks he's a wee lapdog)- that alone plus my marble fireplace is not a situation i would want any toddler to be in.

The afore mentioned little girl's mum is always suggesting i let them play together whilst we have tea/chat. Absoulte lunatic- before i spoke to her about how to touch the dog she would try and grab at him or push down on him. I say try as i quickly intervened while her mum rabbited on about the amount of schoolwork kids have or some other topic....

Let's face it, you know yourself what you're going to do and you know your dog yourself. Kids are not perfect, none of them- they are children... they are learning about the world- they do this through trial and error sometimes without proper guidance.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Lol!!
> 
> Bailey sleeps in kitchen, does it mean my kids shouldn't go in there unless she attacks them because they woke her? Only attack theyd get is licked to death too! :thumbup1:She's like me she will just huff because she needs her beauty sleep


If my kids wake me up I'm more likely to bite them :lol:

I don't think any family could or would choose to live by a 5 minute rule, if you did I don't think dogs & children are the right combination for that household it would be a ridiculous situation and ultimately would never happen or work. I think my children would end up with a very big chip on their shoulder regards the family pet and more likely to cause an incident than prevent one.
It's completely different rules for visiting children but for the children within the family who own and are apart of it just as much as the dogs it's all for one so to speak  we're one unit, not dogs & children living separately within the house! No no no, couldn't be doing with that atall.

I was brought up with a lab, retriever, yorkie & a Bernese.


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## pogo (Jul 25, 2011)

chance aside as obviously he can't be left with anyone unsupervised never mind kids

I trust harvey explicitly and he would take an awful lot to ever snap at a child never mind bite them. However i'm not stupid he is still a dog and a giddy typical staff at that and so while he loves kids and is great with them, i'm the adult and will supervise it so neither my dogs or anyone else gets hurt or annoyed


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

I'd never leave Bumb alone with kids, he's too little and damageable :lol: 

I don't like kids though so I'm quite biased :lol: I wouldn't want to be alone with them either


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Flamingoes said:


> I'd never leave Bumb alone with kids, he's too little and damageable :lol:
> 
> I don't like kids though so I'm quite biased :lol: I wouldn't want to be alone with them either


I hate everyone else's :lol:


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I hate everyone else's :lol:


My mum always said that :lol:


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

We got Callie when my kids were six and seven. It was a deliberate decision not to get a dog until they were older as I wanted to make sure they could be trusted to behave properly with a dog in the house. They were given rules which I made sure they obeyed, allowing the pup to rest quietly, not teasing particularly with food and a number of others. I made sure that play didn't get out of hand and that Callie was well trained. Callie was definitely MY dog. She liked to be with me best and wouldnt let anyone else hold the lead when we were out. I trusted her with my children, but the rules I set were kept and the kids were firmly told off if they transgressed. They were old enough to understand and behave appropriately. If other children came to the house, I allowed them to stroke her and make a fuss, but no more and she usually sloped off and sat with me. If she was asleep then she was left alone. She was a fantastic dog.

On the other hand I would have not trusted either my next two goldies with children unsupervised. They were not brought up with them and I always took care to explain this to children and their parents. They were allowed to stroke gently and no more. Both dogs were happy with that. I kept children away from my Irish Setter as he was terrified of children and did growl, but really just wanted to get away.
As has been said, you know your dog, but do set ground rules which must be kept. I'm particularly keen that dogs must have their own "time out" place.


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## Muze (Nov 30, 2011)

As said by many others, it's kids and their parents I do not trust, even when they are being supervised.

Some comments on this thread emphasise my feelings on this, the rottie in the vid did not appear to injure the child and nobody saw what happened before and yet there are people calling for it to be killed.

I've walked past kids before who think it's funny to say the dog bit them when nothing has happened, knowing full well the potential consequences for that dog. It's not funny!!!

This may offend parents, but my dog means a lot more to me that your kids, so as much as I think it's important for her to be well behaved around them, I will not allow unfamiliar kids anything more than a polite controlled greeting when I feel it appropriate. 
Kids should be under control, just as dogs should IMHO!!

I hate the injustice these days that it's quite normal to kill a dog for even nipping a child, no questions asked :frown2:

Ooh this thread has got me all hot and bothered :mad2:


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## Flamingoes (Dec 8, 2012)

Muze said:


> As said by many others, it's kids and their parents I do not trust, even when they are being supervised.
> 
> Some comments on this thread emphasise my feelings on this, the rottie in the vid did not appear to injure the child and nobody saw what happened before and yet there are people calling for it to be killed.
> 
> ...


I have to say, it's happened more than once where he's been running on the beach and a kid has just picked him up :shocked:

Yet it'd be him to blame if he turned and snapped :frown:


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Buster loves kids and I don't mind well behaved ones petting him but so many parents have never taught their kids how to treat dogs :frown2:. I've had some get angry I wouldn't let their precious brat maul him. I wouldn't leave him alone with a child too much potential for either of them to be hurt.


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## Catz1 (Sep 19, 2011)

Rio adores attention from children, never had any issue with her being around them but I wouldn't leave her unsupervised with them ever. 

I remember one time time my friend brought her son over for a short visit. Rio greeted him gently and everything was going great until she turned for a butt scratch and slap him in the face with her wagging tail. 

Cue screams and tears and a very worried pooch who tried to lick his face to comforted him (cue hysterical screaming!). Had myself and my friend not been present I would have assumed she'd nipped the poor lad. 

You always need to be there to protect yourself, the children and the dog imo.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

McKenzie is another dog who adores children, the smaller the better! She isn't usually interested in either people or dogs outside the house, but children are the exception - she'll _choose_ to run over to them all excited and happy (if I let her). Quite a few parents ask if their child can meet McKenzie, I guess because she's small, and she's pretty bombproof in these situations. Her daycare lady has a toddler whom Kenzie adores, and Kenzie spent her first 15 months in a school with me.

However, I wouldn't trust her unsupervised with a child, not in a million years - it's just not worth the risk. If I had children myself, and they were older children, things might be different, but I would never trust her 100% with someone ele's children, or young children.

My brother was about 8 or 9 when he decided to give my cat a bath (complete with shampoo). He came away from that experience relatively unharmed, apart from a few scratches - as did I as I had to finish the job and get the shampoo off her! But, had we a dog instead of a cat, he could have done something equally stupid and it could have ended much worse.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

I'd never ever trust anyone else's kids with my dogs inside or out & vice versa, but my own children with our own dogs is a completely different thing.


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## Teddy Red Lab (Nov 23, 2011)

I trust Teddy 99%... he has never given me reason not to trust him with children or my small furries, however I still watch him when the rabbits are out etc...you never know, his idea of play could be fatal to a rabbit, even though he only ever sniffs and licks them! 
I dont believe in temping fate, and its always just my luck.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

Bailey is another one who loves kids, probably because he`s used to them but still wouldn`t 100% trust him. He`s not a Lab though.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I just feel I ought to post, because of the title, Labradors are a very friendly breed, but that does not make them the all round bomb proof breed. They have become very popular as working dogs because of their temperament, and because of that, they have then gone on to become popular pets, and assistance dogs. But no dog breed should ever be regarded as *safe* beyond all question.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

Even a golden retriever can be nervous and aggression can rise if not socialised or trained properly, my Amber is an example.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Muze said:


> As said by many others, it's kids and their parents I do not trust, even when they are being supervised.
> 
> Some comments on this thread emphasise my feelings on this, the rottie in the vid did not appear to injure the child and nobody saw what happened before and yet there are people calling for it to be killed.
> 
> ...


I agree with this!

I would never leave Lucky with children unsupervised. Infact I don't allow her around children at all unless I'm there. Mainly because I don't trust the kids or their parents.

There was one incident about 2 years ago when I was in the bathroom and my step sisters 7 year old was pulling at Lucky's whiskers and she bared her teeth at the child. Of course Lucky got the blame :mad2:


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## Bonsai (Jun 9, 2012)

I think it's common sense I mean you can take the most mild mannered human ever and if someone keeps constantly annoying them they are going to snap

Only because people value human life more then dogs its always the dog that's to blame

You can't blame the child because they only know what they are taught...bad parenting. A few months ago a child looked about 4 ran to bonsai in the street and threw her arms round him to hug him. He has very little experience with children but must of had a sense to be gentle because he sat there calmly and let her. Can only imagine if he had been boisterous and knocked her over or got over excited and mouthed a little it would be all our fault

Luckily the parent apologised...personally sorry is too late when a child's been scarred for life and a dog has had to lose its life


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## Buzzard (Aug 10, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> Its not about keeping them seperate or making children paranoid.
> 
> Its about using some common sense and the dangers of letting it become a acceptable habit leaving them together. If that makes sense - Its when it become habit that people in the house become more relaxed about things and accidents happen. I mean if 5 minutes is ok then surely 10 minutes is ok? and oh il just do this while im here etc etc
> 
> Of course every dog, child, parent and house hold are different so its up to parents to make a judgement call but personally I would never want it to be habit that I leave child and dog out of eyeshot.


Yes it is up to the parent to make a judgement call based upon them knowing and trusting their own children. For example I know my kids and they know what is acceptable behaviour that is expected of them, however if their friends come to play I would not leave the dog with them unsupervised at all. It is different when talking about a family pet and the children in the household than 'children' in the general sense. Yes I trust my kids with Mac and because of that I trust Mac. I grew up with dogs and it was never a case of being supervised with them as much of the time they were wherever I was as they adored me and I adored them.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Yes. 
Labradors are one of the most steady and trust worthy breeds of dog in my opinion, which is why they are so popular. 

My 6 year old sister is left in the living room with Pippa. No harm will ever come to either of them from that arrangement. Pippa practically just moves from 'bed' to 'bed' in the house anyway! Pippa has been brought up with my sister from a puppy whereas a lot of dogs mentioned on this thread don't live with children, I would just like to point that out before I get slaughtered. 

Pippa has shown no aggression to ANYTHING.


ETA: Pippa would NEVER be left alone with any of my sisters friends, as she gets too excited, even if she didn't, I wouldn't trust the other child. 
So technically Pippa is not left alone with 'children' just one child who she has grown up with and obeys just as she would an adult.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Can I also say my bailey been with us since 7weeks, she's used to the kids, there part of her life. I wouldn't trust a older rescue dog IMO as you don't know there past.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Muze said:


> As said by many others, it's kids and their parents I do not trust, even when they are being supervised.
> 
> Some comments on this thread emphasise my feelings on this, the rottie in the vid did not appear to injure the child and nobody saw what happened before and yet there are people calling for it to be killed.
> 
> ...


Yes agree, I cannot have children. it would break me to pieces more than any miscarriage to lose Molly at the expense of an adult's stupidity when it's a dog's gut reaction to defend. The law takes no account for human error, it's easier to blame a dumb animal.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Can I also say my bailey been with us since 7weeks, she's used to the kids, there part of her life. I wouldn't trust a older rescue dog IMO as you don't know there past.


All my grandparents dogs were rescue dogs, older ones and I was never attacked or bitten apart from a small nip by a nursing mum. My fault. It is a two way street with dog and child, I think it's a vey broad swipe to assume and categorise all rescues as bad with children. It's up to the children to be respectfully aware of dogs.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> All my grandparents dogs were rescue dogs, older ones and I was never attacked or bitten apart from a small nip by a nursing mum. My fault. It is a two way street with dog and child, I think it's a vey broad swipe to assume and categorise all rescues as bad with children. It's up to the children to be respectfully aware of dogs.


I didn't mean anything bad by it! I ment now days you never hear the full story as to why thee being rehomed.


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## Paula07 (Aug 23, 2010)

I wouldn't leave my pair unsupervised with children. Both are good with kids but Tig has a bite history and I would worry as Nicky can be a bit excitable and he's a big lad.



xbaileyboox said:


> Can I also say my bailey been with us since 7weeks, she's used to the kids, there part of her life. *I wouldn't trust a older rescue dog IMO as you don't know there past*.


Iv heard many people say this and i don't really get it to be honest. Nicky was a rescue, he came to me when he was 4(now 7). I don't know much about his past but i do know he was brought up with kids and he has been very friendly with all the kids he has met whilst he has been with me. He has never given me any reason not to trust him.



Muze said:


> As said by many others, it's kids and their parents I do not trust, even when they are being supervised.
> 
> Some comments on this thread emphasise my feelings on this, the rottie in the vid did not appear to injure the child and nobody saw what happened before and yet there are people calling for it to be killed.
> 
> ...


Bet me to it Muze, totally agree with this.

We don't know what happened before or after the incident. 
If the Rottie wanted to do damage it would have. All the people shouting and the child screaming probably didn't help the situation at all.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> Can I also say my bailey been with us since 7weeks, she's used to the kids, there part of her life. I wouldn't trust a older rescue dog IMO as you don't know there past.


Baloney.

What makes a dog a safe family dog is temperament, thresholds, impulse control, and bite inhibition and caretakers who don't operate under the assumption that this dog will never bite.

A dog obtained at 7 weeks subjected to rude behavior from day one may have a grumpy day and decide he's not going to put up with grabby toddler hands any more and lash out at the approaching toddler "out of the blue" in anticipation of the discomfort he's had to deal with for months or years.
Meanwhile, a rescue with stellar bite inhibition and high tolerance may never have an off day with a child in his life.

One of our dogs was eating dinner in the kitchen one night when a visiting kid did a cartwheel from the living room, toppled over and fell on top of the eating dog. Both collapsed to the floor with a crash. Our dog pulled himself out from under the kid, licked her, and went back to finish his meal. 
We obtained this dog as an adult rescue 

By the way, despite this dog having proven to us repeatedly that he is really this tolerant, I would never say he is 100% safe because NO dog is 100%. 
None. 
All of you saying your dog will NEVER bite are deluding yourselves. ALL dogs bite. It's just a matter of setting up the right (wrong) scenario, but I promise, all dogs have a point at which they will bite.

Our other adult rescue has bitten both me and my husband (and the assessor at the shelter). I trust him MORE because he has bitten. Why? I know what his threshold is, I know what his bite inhibition is like (excellent), and I know that he now has much better coping skills and ways of extricating himself from situations where he's not comfortable.

This blog is one of my favorites about dog/kid safety. This entry is particularly apt on this thread:
I Think My Dog Might Bite My Kids…And I'm Glad | Dogs and Babies

Also helpful:


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Catz1 said:


> Rio adores attention from children, never had any issue with her being around them but I wouldn't leave her unsupervised with them ever.
> 
> I remember one time time my friend brought her son over for a short visit. Rio greeted him gently and everything was going great until she turned for a butt scratch and slap him in the face with her wagging tail.
> 
> ...


This sums it up perfectly IMO


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Baloney.
> 
> What makes a dog a safe family dog is temperament, thresholds, impulse control, and bite inhibition and caretakers who don't operate under the assumption that this dog will never bite.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this post.

Dex is amazing around children but I would still never leave him alone with them.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


>


This is great.

Just for the record my sister knows how to interact with Pippa, and she NEVER does any of this!


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## queeniefarie (Jan 2, 2013)

I have three children who are now parents to five children. (Five grandchildren) yikes!

I have taught them to respect the dogs, I also taught the dogs to respect the children. I've had irish setters for nearly fourty years. I love them they love children, the children love them, however I still would not leave them totally unsupervised.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Jesus Christ I will keep bailey in kitchen from now on and won't let my well behaved children touch her or play with her. Just in case.



Oh and if a dog wanted to bite a child they will do it even in front of you.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

dandogman said:


> This is great.
> 
> Just for the record my sister knows how to interact with Pippa, and she NEVER does any of this!


Your sister may know how to interact with dogs, but if she's 6, she probably doesn't always look where she's going, trips and falls, flails her arms dancing, doesn't always look who's there before she flops on to the sofa...
IOW, she's probably a normal child who does normal child things that can turn in to tragedies with a dog who's not in the mood to deal with it, and doesn't have any impulse control or bite inhibition.


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> Jesus Christ I will keep bailey in kitchen from now on and won't let my well behaved children touch her or play with her. Just in case.
> 
> Oh and if a dog wanted to bite a child they will do it even in front of you.


Or...

You could read some of the entries in the blog I posted, educate yourself, and be proactive about keeping both kids and dogs safe


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> I didn't mean anything bad by it! I ment now days you never hear the full story as to why thee being rehomed.




If you don't leave a dog unsupervised and the rescue has done all they can to assess the dog and the children are respectful then what is the problem? A rescue is then as safe as a puppy.



xbaileyboox said:


> Jesus Christ I will keep bailey in kitchen from now on and won't let my well behaved children touch her or play with her. Just in case.
> Oh and if a dog wanted to bite a child they will do it even in front of you.


Oh I see, I was right, it's not about trusting the 'labrador'  It's about the adult here, and overreacting to very sensible advice does make me wonder. Thing is, I was well behaved as a child, I would take issue with anyone who said my god daughters were less then well behaved but their good manners does not allow them to dress up my dog or pull her ears. Neither does locking Molly in a kitchen teach them anything and it punishes Molly. But because I pay attention to how Molly reacts and general body language of dogs I act like an adult. I cover myself for Molly's sake and for the kids sake.

Personally I think the poster that ouesi has supplied should be on every dog owners wall don't you?


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Come to think of it, there are several *adults* I won't leave my dog alone with - for the dog's protection.

I'm not kidding.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Come to think of it, there are several *adults* I won't leave my dog alone with - for the dog's protection.
> 
> I'm not kidding.


Yes me too...!


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

My old staffie was fab with children, he used to seek them out and wasn't bothered if they were squealing or running about or a bit full on - or if children would hug or fuss him he loved it. We don't have children so such incidents were few or fa between but he would take it all in his stride.

My crossbreed girl doesn't like children, wellshe is fine until they start walking and then then doesn't like them until they are about 7-8 and know how to be calm. When friends have children around she is fine if they leave her alone, but she doesn't like the noises, sudden movements and unpredicatbility of those and will snap and then run away. She did this to a friends child the other day who ran into the room and obviously puds had had enough and she ran a few paces and growled at her from the other side of the room. It did make the child learn far quicker than us telling her to be calm around the dogs.

Scout didn't like the child either, I thought being a baby he would be better but he just wanted to get away from her...

I do think its children I don't trust combined with having dogs that don't seem keen on young children - sometimes children are not sure the right or wrong way to behave or can't read dogs signals, even adults can't read the signals at times..


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Or...
> 
> You could read some of the entries in the blog I posted, educate yourself, and be proactive about keeping both kids and dogs safe


Or you could listen to the people that actually have children & dogs :001_tt2:

Not the people without children.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Or you could listen to the people that actually have children & dogs :001_tt2:
> 
> *Not the people without children.*


Can I just say that I find this rather upsetting. I don't feel that I can't comment on this thread because I don't have children. A stillbirth and the agony of IVF doesn't not make me any less qualified than a parent because I still have very loved god-children in my life and I also have a dog. I also exercise common sense around both.

I hope I have just taken that the wrong way and you are fortunate enough not to know the upset that this remark might cause to some people who do not have children and are less open than I am about the reasons that they do not have them.


----------



## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Can I just say that I find this rather upsetting. I don't feel that I can't comment on this thread because I don't have children. A stillbirth and the agony of IVF doesn't not make me any less qualified than a parent because I still have very loved god-children in my life and I also have a dog. I also exercise common sense around both.
> 
> I hope I have just taken that the wrong way and you are fortunate enough not to know the upset that this remark might cause to some people who do not have children and are less open than I am about the reasons that they do not have them.


I'm sorry, did I quote your post?

There aren't many posts of people actually living in the situation, just people posting how they 'think' they would be/ live, which is completely unrealistic in the real world  how you think it should be/ would be aren't necessarily right or anything like what your reality would be!...visiting children, children in the streets is no comparison to having a house with your children brought up around your dogs & vice versa.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Or you could listen to the people that actually have children & dogs :001_tt2:
> 
> Not the people without children.





MollySmith said:


> Can I just say that I find this rather upsetting. I don't feel that I can't comment on this thread because I don't have children. A stillbirth and the agony of IVF doesn't not make me any less qualified than a parent because I still have very loved god-children in my life and I also have a dog. I also exercise common sense around both.
> 
> I hope I have just taken that the wrong way and you are fortunate enough not to know the upset that this remark might cause to some people who do not have children and are less open than I am about the reasons that they do not have them.


I have to say MaisyMoomin that I found the manner with which you posted a little insulting too. You suggested that unless someone has children, they have nothing useful to say in this situation. I'm not lucky enough to have children yet, but I hope that I'm still able to make a small contribution to this discussion. Perhaps without the wagging tongue and wink smilies I would have taken it differently but it came across as very dismissive to me.


----------



## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I'm sorry, did I quote your post?
> 
> There aren't many posts of people actually living in the situation, just people posting how they 'think' they would be/ live, which is completely unrealistic in the real world  how you think it should be/ would be aren't necessarily right or anything like what your reality would be!...visiting children, children in the streets is no comparison to having a house with your children brought up around your dogs & vice versa.


Like ouesi perhaps? 

Everytime I see you post it's inflammatory.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

dandogman said:


> Yes.
> Labradors are one of the most steady and trust worthy breeds of dog in my opinion, which is why they are so popular.


Yes, because no child has _ever_ been bitten by a labrador...

I suppose it is up to individual parent whether they want to take the risk, but I just don't understand why anyone would think it's a good idea to let a young child take a dog into another room to play with it or "train" it. No matter how well-behaved the child there is always a risk that they will take the game etc too far, and if the parent is not actually there supervising you would have no idea what the child is doing (or be able to guage whether the dog is getting stressed/unhappy)

Of course, my opinion is totally worthless as I am not a parent


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

We're absolutely none of you brought up with a family dog????


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> We're absolutely none of you brought up with a family dog????


Were*

And yes, if you actually read the thread you wouldn't need to ask. You also wouldn't need to ask how many people have been bitten by dogs they were brought up with,because the answer isn't 0.


----------



## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I'm sorry, did I quote your post?
> 
> There aren't many posts of people actually living in the situation, just people posting how they 'think' they would be/ live, which is completely unrealistic in the real world  how you think it should be/ would be aren't necessarily right or anything like what your reality would be!...visiting children, children in the streets is no comparison to having a house with your children brought up around your dogs & vice versa.


No, but you made a sweeping statement that only people who had children and dogs had a valid opinion and those of us without children did not have a valid opinion.

There are many people on here who have grown up with dogs, who have dogs who may not live with but regularly interact with children, and people who have seen what can go wrong when dogs and children are left unsupervised.

I also find that some parents have a rather rose-tinted view of how well-behaved their children are, particularly around dogs.


----------



## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Were*
> 
> And yes, if you actually read the thread you wouldn't need to ask. You also wouldn't need to ask how many people have been bitten by dogs they were brought up by,because the answer isn't 0.


So?? We're you aloud in the same room as your family pet without an adult for more than 5 minutes in your childhood?

We're = iPad predictive text


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> So?? We're you aloud in the same room as your family pet without an adult for more than 5 minutes in your childhood?
> 
> We're = iPad predictive text


Yes, but that's my parents judgement call to make, rightly or wrongly. And many of my friends had childhood dogs too. They were left alone with them. And they were bitten by them. Again, their judgement call.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> Yes, but that's my parents judgement call to make, rightly or wrongly. And many of my friends had childhood dogs too. They were left alone with them. And they were bitten by them. Again, their judgement call.


Yes as a parent it's your judgement got it in one!


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Or you could listen to the people that actually have children & dogs :001_tt2:
> 
> Not the people without children.


By that 'logic', only folk with Labradors should be responding in this thread....


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Dimwit said:


> No, but you made a sweeping statement that only people who had children and dogs had a valid opinion and those of us without children did not have a valid opinion.
> 
> There are many people on here who have grown up with dogs, who have dogs who may not live with but regularly interact with children, and people who have seen what can go wrong when dogs and children are left unsupervised.
> 
> I also find that some parents have a rather rose-tinted view of how well-behaved their children are, particularly around dogs.


Yes, I guess your right, I don't think until you live in the actual situation you will know for sure, up until then it is just an opinion, valid as any other!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Yes as a parent it's your judgement got it in one!


I'm glad you have faith in the collective parenting skills of Britain's finest. :lol: Having a trawl round town on a Wednesday afternoon I fail to see where your optimism in many peoples decision making skills comes from though.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> By that 'logic', only folk with Labradors should be responding in this thread....


Very true, that was the initial question


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> I'm glad you have faith in the collective parenting skills of Britain's finest. :lol: Having a trawl round town on a Wednesday afternoon I fail to see where your optimism in many peoples decision making skills comes from though.


Ahh you see! we can't all be perfect now can we!


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Yes, I guess your right, I don't think until you live in the actual situation you will know for sure, up until then it is just an opinion, valid as any other!


I have stepkids, 14 and 15 years old now, and I still won't trust them with Kes unsupervised for any prolonged period (more than a minute or two). At the end of the day my dog matters to me, I won't have her being condemned for the sake of anyone. If you want to take that risk with your dog then fair enough, but I don't. If they were younger than 10 I wouldn't leave them in a room alone with her for a second to be honest. She's far too big and powerful should anything go wrong.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Very true, that was the initial question


Yep 

Happily, both folk without Labs and folk without children are responding.

Just as it should be


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Or you could listen to the people that actually have children & dogs :001_tt2:
> 
> Not the people without children.


I am 18 I don't have children. But my older siblings among them have 8 children. All which I see frequently. I would never leave my dog alone with them, my labrador or my staff. I would never let ANY child be rough with my dogs and vice versa and it bugs me when I meet ill mannered children that come running over screaming crouch right down in my dogs face and go "HI!" and start petting without asking. I know my dogs are safe with this and i am confident in saying they wouldnt bite, but who's to say that the next persons dog won't and who's also to say my never will?

It's common sense a dog is another living being and should be respected as one. If you want a toy for the dog go to Toys 'r' us, don't by a live animal.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I am 18 I don't have children. But my older siblings among them have 8 children. All which I see frequently. I would never leave my dog alone with them, my labrador or my staff. I would never let ANY child be rough with my dogs and vice versa and it bugs me when I meet ill mannered children that come running over screaming crouch right down in my dogs face and go "HI!" and start petting without asking. I know my dogs are safe with this and i am confident in saying they wouldnt bite, but who's to say that the next persons dog won't and who's also to say my never will?
> 
> It's common sense a dog is another living being and should be respected as one. If you want a toy for the dog go to Toys 'r' us, don't by a live animal.


Completely agree, but if it were your own child/ children that had been brought up with your dog in your house your opinion may be different as to how they should live together & interact


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Completely agree, but if it were your own child/ children that had been brought up with your dog in your house your opinion may be different as to how they should live together & interact


I'm sure that's the opinion of every parent before the dog has bitten their children.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Completely agree, but if it were your own child/ children that had been brought up with your dog in your house your opinion may be different as to how they should live together & interact


As I child that grew up surrounded by working gundog kennels (Cockers etc. Funnily enough) I was ALWAYS told the boundaries of what I could and could not do. For example if the dog is eating, you do not go near, if the dog is sleeping you leave it alone. You do not pull the dogs fur/ears/tail as would you like your hair to be pulled, or your ears?

People nowadays think dogs SHOULD accept being roughly handled by children when it's simply not the case. The HUMAN child should learn like they do many things in life how to correctly treat an animal. If you wouldn't do it when you're an adult, don't do it when you're a child. I have many a time told my nieces and nephews off and physically removed the child from the dog's vicinity if the child is not behaving properly. It's simple manners, like learning to eat at the table or potty training to me.

I don't consider myself a strict person, but when it comes to a dog's or animal's or child's welfare I am not flexible.


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't have a lab but I do have children... am I okay to reply? :blink:

I would never 100% trust Alfie with children, mainly because (apart from my own who are 12 and 17) he doesn't really like them very much - can't say I blame him... again, apart from my own I'm not too keen myself.

I do allow polite, calm greetings with children if Alfie is okay with it but only for a few seconds then off on our way, treats dispensed, telling him what a good boy he is. The ones that screech "OOOOOOH, A DALMATIAN!" I give a very wide berth to.


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> By that 'logic', only folk with Labradors should be responding in this thread....


am I allowed? :aureola:

Molly is a Labrador....honest, she's a "long haired Labrador" :aureola:


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Coffee said:


> I don't have a lab but I do have children... am I okay to reply? :blink:
> 
> I would never 100% trust Alfie with children, mainly because (apart from my own who are 12 and 17) he doesn't really like them very much - can't say I blame him... again, apart from my own I'm not too keen myself.
> 
> I do allow polite, calm greetings with children if Alfie is okay with it but only for a few seconds then off on our way, treats dispensed, telling him what a good boy he is. The ones that screech "OOOOOOH, A DALMATIAN!" I give a very wide berth to.


My daughter is obsessed with Dalmatians, she goes all gooey over them, she will stand and watch them place and be all in love lol. The horse she rides is even spotty lol

Tbh though my kids are that shy about people they wouldn't dream of going up and stroking a random dog lol.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> I'm sure that's the opinion of every parent before the dog has bitten their children.


I disagree, their are a multitude of idiotic parents about that shouldn't have children let alone pets.


----------



## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

Patterdale_lover said:


> As I child that grew up surrounded by working gundog kennels (Cockers etc. Funnily enough) I was ALWAYS told the boundaries of what I could and could not do. For example if the dog is eating, you do not go near, if the dog is sleeping you leave it alone. You do not pull the dogs fur/ears/tail as would you like your hair to be pulled, or your ears?
> 
> People nowadays think dogs SHOULD accept being roughly handled by children when it's simply not the case. The HUMAN child should learn like they do many things in life how to correctly treat an animal. If you wouldn't do it when you're an adult, don't do it when you're a child. I have many a time told my nieces and nephews off and physically removed the child from the dog's vicinity if the child is not behaving properly. It's simple manners, like learning to eat at the table or potty training to me.
> 
> I don't consider myself a strict person, but when it comes to a dog's or animal's or child's welfare I am not flexible.


The problem is, children by nature test boundaries, forget what they are told, and don't always think about consequences. It's how they learn about their world. Unfortunately when you add a dog to the mix, a child's very nature becomes a danger. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not at all. But all it takes is a dog having an off day or sleeping, and a child doing what children do.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I think you have to take the dog into consideration. It's always better to be safe and sorry but you have to judge your dog correctly. 

Sadie and Jack are 99% safe with any child. The missing 1% is the little doubt in case there is a naughty child. Sadie will move away from whatever is annoying her. If Jack was any more laid back he'd be dead. 

I wouldn't trust Benjie with anyone. Let alone a child. 

Louie - he doesn't know what to do - they confuse him a little. So he's out of the question. And Pen is a puppy but has proved she is alright with children when one ran up and screamed in her face, she sat down and licked his nose. But I wouldn't leave her alone with one. 

You have to be sensible. IMO it's the child thats more of the problem. They can't help but get into everything. So for me - it's not a question of how much do I trust my dogs. It's how much do I trust that I have taught my child to do the right thing. To treat the dog respectfully. I don't have kids yet but I'll be doing things my way when I do. But my own way will be sensible and using common sense.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I disagree, their are a multitude of idiotic parents about that shouldn't have children let alone pets.


And in what way does that mean you disagree with me saying you trust your dog...until you don't? Or do you have lots more insight into your dog than every other parent out there who also trusts their dog with children alone?

Funny how the soundbite is never "Well I knew she was a bit iffy with the newborn".


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Phoolf said:


> And in what way does that mean you disagree with me saying you trust your dog...until you don't? Or do you have lots more insight into your dog than every other parent out there who also trusts their dog with children alone?
> 
> Funny how the soundbite is never "Well I knew she was a bit iffy with the newborn".


I know my children, I know my dogs as did your parents and millions of others 

I'm not sure how children survive at all now a days :lol:


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Just imagine...a child and a dog happily living along side each other shock horror! Must be one of those miracles!


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

McKenzie said:


> The problem is, children by nature test boundaries, forget what they are told, and don't always think about consequences. It's how they learn about their world. Unfortunately when you add a dog to the mix, a child's very nature becomes a danger. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not at all. But all it takes is a dog having an off day or sleeping, and a child doing what children do.


Yes and I can appreciate that. However the amount of parents I have seen start out really well in keeping consistent of the rules then let it flack because the child keeps persisting and the dog "seems alright with it" is sad 

I understand a child being curious and testing boundaries that is why I would always be there right next to the child to guide them in what is acceptable, as I'm sure many parents including yourself do do. When I couldn't be there, the dog would be put somewhere safe away from the child and the child would have their toys to keep them entertained


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Just imagine...a child and a dog happily living along side each other shock horror! Must be one of those miracles!


I live/ed happily alongside ALL my dogs. As do my nieces and nephews. Living happily alongside them doesn't mean I have to pull their tails and ears and invade their space to do so though 

In my eyes living HAPPILY alongside, is having respect for those you are living with, human and animal.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Or you could listen to the people that actually have children & dogs :001_tt2:
> 
> Not the people without children.


Maisy, guess what?
I have children. 
You know what else?
I grew up with dogs.

I'm also active in my community educating folks on kid/dog safety. Along with my trainer/friend (who also has kids who grew up with dogs) we give presentations, demonstrations and talks on ways for kids and dogs to interact safely and prevent issues.

Two of my dogs are therapy dogs, one often goes in to schools and libraries to do reading programs with children. One of the first things you learn doing therapy work is to watch your dog's signals and remove the dog at ANY sign of anxiety or discomfort. 
Do you know what your dog's signs of discomfort look like? Because IME, the vast majority of dog owners don't. 
Heck just browse youtube and you'll see video after video of "cute" kid and dog interactions where the dog is throwing calming signals like confetti and being totally ignored.

The blog I posted is written by a credentialed dog trainer who is also a mom. 
Pretty cool huh?

Here it is again for those who missed it. Different article, same blog:
Do Dogs Bite Out of the Blue? | Dogs and Babies


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Maisy, guess what?
> I have children.
> You know what else?
> I grew up with dogs.
> ...


I rarely agree with your posts, but fair play, 110% agree with this one


----------



## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Maisy, guess what?
> I have children.
> You know what else?
> I grew up with dogs.
> ...


And you never leave your dogs & children in the same room un supervised for more than 5 minutes. As I've said I know my dogs & my children & trust them all implicitly.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> And you never leave your dogs & children in the same room un supervised for more than 5 minutes. As I've said I know my dogs & my children & trust them all implicitly.


I assume you'd be the sort of person who would come onto the forum wailing they don't know what and how it could have happened if your dog ever nipped/bit your child when you just nipped into the kitchen to make a cup of coffee for 5 minutes.  Dogs aren't human, don't treat them nor trust them like one. Harsh truth.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I know my children, I know my dogs


I'm sure you do, just as I am sure that many people do right up to the point where their dog bites. The point is that it doesn't matter how well you know your dog or child, if you are not in the same room as them then you CANNOT see what is happening. 
I was occasionally left alone with our dogs when I was young, but there is a big difference (in terms of risk) between a parent leaving the room to go to the toilet/check on dinner etc and a parent letting the child play with/train/dress up a dog unsupervised.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> And you never leave your dogs & children in the same room un supervised for more than 5 minutes. As I've said I know my dogs & my children & trust them all implicitly.


Your children have never broken a rule, done something you told them not to, been just a little bit silly? Your dogs have never had an 'off' day, felt a bit ill or been a bit sore? It's not about trust, it's about mistakes and accidents.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I assume you'd be the sort of person who would come onto the forum wailing they don't know what and how it could have happened if your dog ever nipped/bit your child when you just nipped into the kitchen to make a cup of coffee for 5 minutes.  Dogs aren't human, don't treat them nor trust them like one. Harsh truth.


If I can't trust my dog around my children or my children around my dog for more than 5 minutes the dogs wouldn't be here! I will never live my life on tender hooks in the belief my children don't know how to behave or I can trust my dogs.
The people on this forum may surround themselves with families & friends with idiotic un educated brats & equally stupid parents....my children have grown up with dogs since birth as have I, they help train, walk, groom, cuddle and care for 'our family pets' I have never & will never feel the need to not allow access to rooms or remove them or the dogs from a room out of fear for the dog or my children


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> If I can't trust my dog around my children or my children around my dog for more than 5 minutes the dogs wouldn't be here! I will never live my life on tender hooks in the belief my children don't know how to behave or I can trust my dogs.
> The people on this forum may surround themselves with families & friends with idiotic un educated brats & equally stupid parents....my children have grown up with dogs since birth as have I, they help train, walk, groom, cuddle and care for 'our family pets' I have never & will never feel the need to not allow access to rooms or remove them or the dogs from a room out of fear for the dog or my children


It's not about fear. It's about common sense. As a parent YOU rolleyes should know more than anyone how a child can act up when they think mum or dad isn't watching. And how a dog like any being can have off days.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

McKenzie said:


> Your children have never broken a rule, done something you told them not to, been just a little bit silly? Your dogs have never had an 'off' day, felt a bit I'll or been a bit sore? It's not about trust, it's about mistakes and accidents.


If my dog was ill or sore they my children would be told not to go near them or put somewhere safe & that's what they would do.
My dogs hold absolutely no novelty value to either of my children, sad but true, if your brought up with a thing that's always their you soon learn how to deal with it and in all honestly they are more part of the furniture than anything else.
My eldest helps feed them, walk, groom play etc its completely as it should be! Our family pets.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> It's not about fear. It's about common sense. As a parent YOU rolleyes should know more than anyone how a child can act up when they think mum or dad isn't watching. And how a dog like any being can have off days.


Yes I know my children!


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> If my dog was ill or sore they my children would be told not to go near them or put somewhere safe & that's what they would do.
> My dogs hold absolutely no novelty value to either of my children, sad but true, if your brought up with a thing that's always their you soon learn how to deal with it and in all honestly they are more part of the furniture than anything else.
> My eldest helps feed them, walk, groom play etc its completely as it should be! Our family pets.


Not even some experts can tell underlying health issues that lead to aggression. There has been a fair few threads on my time here about how a dog has suddenly turned on the family after being a faithful companion for years. Later finding out after the dog has been PTS, it was unwell. However rare it is, personally because i love my dogs and i'm sure i would love any children I have just as much if not more so, I wouldn't risk it.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Dimwit said:


> I'm sure you do, just as I am sure that many people do right up to the point where their dog bites. The point is that it doesn't matter how well you know your dog or child, if you are not in the same room as them then you CANNOT see what is happening.
> I was occasionally left alone with our dogs when I was young, but there is a big difference (in terms of risk) between a parent leaving the room to go to the toilet/check on dinner etc and a parent letting the child play with/train/dress up a dog unsupervised.


My children have never dressed up or trained un supervised, they never would.
They do play together & I actively encourage it (supervised)


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> If my dog was ill or sore they my children would be told not to go near them or put somewhere safe & that's what they would do.
> My dogs hold absolutely no novelty value to either of my children, sad but true, if your brought up with a thing that's always their you soon learn how to deal with it and in all honestly they are more part of the furniture than anything else.
> My eldest helps feed them, walk, groom play etc its completely as it should be! Our family pets.


Exactly! Bailey has been with us for a whole now, is cant remember not having her, she's like a furry sister to them, so it's not like a new toy where there with her 24/7. X


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Not even some experts can tell underlying health issues that lead to aggression. There has been a fair few threads on my time here about how a dog has suddenly turned on the family after being a faithful companion for years. Later finding out after the dog has been PTS, it was unwell. However rare it is, personally because i love my dogs and i'm sure i would love any children I have just as much if not more so, I wouldn't risk it.


I am more than happy to take the risk as a well educated adult that knows my situation, children & pets, as are billions of other families.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

MaisyMoomin said:


> And you never leave your dogs & children in the same room un supervised for more than 5 minutes.


Where did I say that?
Have you read any of my posts or are you just jumping to the defensive on anyone who remotely sounds like they might have something different to say?


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I am more than happy to take the risk as a well educated adult that knows my situation, children & pets, as are billions of other families.


Okay and I hope it works for you. Just remember if a dog ever bites, it's rarely if not ever for no reason


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Ahh you see! we can't all be perfect now can we!


Most threads on PF are constructive. It's possible to learn something as in context most are made from equal starting points. I fear that it escapes your intelligence that most critical judgements should be balanced in order to maintain a debate. You have made a broad side swipe that isn't really constructive in any form and reduced this thread to petty factionalism, and before you raise the antiquated piteous response that someone else began this, refer back. That's my judgement without bringing into account any emotive argument (by this I mean argument in the scholarly, educational sense as opposed to your pot and pan throwing one-sided technique that appears to be about riling people). I realise that my experiences have taught me how to be constructive, that's far more 'real life' than you will ever know judging by your badly spelt, rude and posts that lack a lot of empathy. I'd rather have gone through all I have to be the person I am than to have given birth and be the person you appear to be.

Anyway congratulations for proving, if ever it was required, that working ovaries does not make intelligence. Well done.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Do you think that you shouldn't leave a child in a room with an electric socket in or the kitchen for fear they may open the cutlery draw! 

Absolutely ridiculous....if you don't have your own children & a family dog it's nil & void, as for my spelling etc, I'm on my iPad dusting & hoovering I do have slightly more important things to do I'm multitasking :lol:


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MollySmith said:


> Most threads on PF are constructive. It's possible to learn something as in context most are made from equal starting points. I fear that it escapes your intelligence that most critical judgements should be balanced in order to maintain a debate. You have made a broad side swipe that isn't really constructive in any form and reduced this thread to petty factionalism, and before you raise the antiquated piteous response that someone else began this, refer back. That's my judgement without bringing into account any emotive argument (by this I mean argument in the scholarly, educational sense as opposed to your pot and pan throwing one-sided technique that appears to be about riling people). I realise that my experiences have taught me how to be constructive, that's far more 'real life' than you will ever know judging by your badly spelt, rude and posts that lack a lot of empathy. I'd rather have gone through all I have to be the person I am than to have given birth and be the person you appear to be.
> 
> Anyway congratulations for proving, if ever it was required, that working ovaries does not make intelligence. Well done.


Best post. Rep.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Do you think that you shouldn't leave a child in a room with an electric socket in or the kitchen for fear they may open the cutlery draw!
> 
> Absolutely ridiculous....if you don't have your own children & a family dog it's nil & void, as for my spelling etc, I'm on my iPad dusting & hoovering I do have slightly more important things to do I'm multitasking :lol:


Like talking to a brick wall....


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Anyway congratulations for proving, if ever it was required, that working ovaries does not make intelligence. Well done.


:lol: talk about lowering the tone to biter & twisted.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Do you think that you shouldn't leave a child in a room with an electric socket in or the kitchen for fear they may open the cutlery draw!
> 
> Absolutely ridiculous....if you don't have your own children & a family dog it's nil & void, as for my spelling etc, I'm on my iPad dusting & hoovering I do have slightly more important things to do I'm multitasking :lol:


This just shows your lack of feeling for others. I don't have children I have 2 dogs of my own and my parents run kennels with around 15 dogs of their own. My siblings each have a dog and children, which I see regularly. I think my opinion on children and dogs is just as valid as yours purely because you've already pushed one out.

Say this was a different forum and we were having a debate about something involving a homosexual person or a person of a different race? (No offence intended) would your opinion on the matter be "void" because you're neither homosexual or of a different colour?

Take your narrowmindedness elsewhere as your comments to me and the majority of other members seem to make you feel you are superior and in my eyes "nil & void"


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> :lol: talk about lowering the tone to biter & twisted.


You're a disgusting individual to me and I really hope your children do not inherit your vile manner.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Annnnd back to the dogs at the heart of this debate shall we?

As a human being with much experience of children (please pm for more details as I don't do competitive child upbringing), yes I have been brought up with a family dog. I've also raised puppies as a teenager. This does not mean that I know any better. The way I see it is that we are all individuals, adults, dogs and children's. I think that the recent threads have lost that viewpoint. What works for one, doesn't work for another but in being unique we have apply guidelines. A parent (or not a parent) does not equal a vet, does not equal a behaviourist no more than one child will always be well behaved. I think the thread on 'correct approach' is a good example of when we're in a hurry we might skip something because our mood dictates that and this confuses a dog. As adults we can predict better and control better then responses. For example, we had children over recently and my OH was around as my weak shoulder means I'm not so fast to react IF there was a situation. But that's the same with Molly and cats too. It's a mere precaution as Molly is young and it's fair to all to be there.

Is it not better to remain with a child and be watchful, teach them respect for the dog (since children are not more born with this than a pup) then deal with the aftermath of a bite? It doesn't take a parent or non parent to work that one out surely? But ultimately I guess it's up to you as posters, if you feel capable of defending a problem situation good luck to you. You won't persuade me otherwise.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> You're a disgusting individual to me and I really hope your children do not inherit your vile manner.


I didn't make the nasty comment.


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## L/C (Aug 9, 2010)

MaisyMoomin said:


> :lol: talk about lowering the tone to biter & twisted.


Really?

Not to go all playground on this but I don't think it was Molly that lowered the tone.

The argument that you can't have an opinion if you're not a parent is one of the laziest that people employ to shut down discussion. I don't need to be a parent to be able to say that you should not be de-sensitizing your dog to having it's tail and ears pulled. You should be supervising your children not expecting your dog to have superhuman self control.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I didn't make the nasty comment.


I'm not going to even rise to your comments any more as every time i see you post on this forum, you seem to just be wanting a reaction out of people.

Back to the original thread.

When I do have my own children and when I see my nieces and nephews it is important they have fun with the dog, realise they are great creatures to have around and can bring lots of joy into our lives, but because they do this for us, they should be respected and have their own personal time and space.

This obviously doesn't usually apply to older children say 8 or 9 + as they tend to see dogs as less of a novelty but children from birth up until that age will always have supervision when around my animal, or until I feel confident in the fact they can play safely with the dog.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> :lol: talk about lowering the tone to biter & twisted.


Please refer back to my post 163 in which I said ' You have made a broad side swipe that isn't really constructive in any form and reduced this thread to petty factionalism, and before y*ou raise the antiquated piteous response that someone else began this, refer back*.'

I've already predicted your reply. Clear up your own crap (you may require a bin liner as opposed to the dog bag) and jog on sweetie if that's the best you can do. Try to be a touch more constructive next time you post. Taking responsibility is a very adult thing to teach your children BTW

Anyway i said well done and I added a smiley face ;P


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

My children were brought up to be kind and caring round animals and my dogs were brought up to be tolerant around humans. 
I never had a moments worry. 
It`s not always the dog that`s at fault, you know.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> I'm not going to even rise to your comments any more as every time i see you post on this forum, you seem to just be wanting a reaction out of people.
> 
> Back to the original thread.
> 
> ...


That's a great point,  I think we've forgotten that, dogs are huge fun. Our trainer who doesn't have kids but is a part time teacher takes her gorgeous dog Red into schools to each children how to interact with dogs. She says it helps them socially and those who aren't lucky enough to have a pet at home get so much pleasure from it. It's something that Molly and I would like to do.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> That's a great point,  I think we've forgotten that, dogs are huge fun. Our trainer who doesn't have kids but is a part time teacher takes her gorgeous dog Red into schools to each children how to interact with dogs. She says it helps them socially and those who aren't lucky enough to have a pet at home get so much pleasure from it. It's something that Molly and I would like to do.


there are some schools that are now so afraid of dogs with kids that they don't even allow them in the grounds. We spent years on our local school field then they decided to fence it off so we now can't even do a nice short walk round thereut:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> I have always trusted bailey, and will. But reading on google has made me worry.:frown2:
> 
> Taylor and dexter always take bailey out the back garden and play together or in the kitchen, I don't always watch, because I trust my children and they know what they can and can't do.
> 
> ...


I don't have a labrador but I doubt it matters what breed of dog you have, what the hell are you doing allowing a dog to be abused in this manner? You took the dog on, it is up to you to protect him/her and teach your children some respect.

If anyone ever did any of those things to one of my dogs, they would know what it felt like.



xbaileyboox said:


> Yeah I'm feeling paranoid now. They even play dress up with her lol. But i think I'm going to stop it all


Please do, the sooner the better. She is a dog not an animated teddy bear.


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## Phoolf (Jun 13, 2012)

Wiz201 said:


> there are some schools that are now so afraid of dogs with kids that they don't even allow them in the grounds. We spent years on our local school field then they decided to fence it off so we now can't even do a nice short walk round thereut:


I suspect this is more to do with people leaving dog s*** in children's play areas more than being 'scared' of dogs. You can thank all the irresponsible owners out there.


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

MaisyMoomin said:


> If I can't trust my dog around my children or my children around my dog for more than 5 minutes the dogs wouldn't be here! I will never live my life on tender hooks in the belief my children don't know how to behave or I can trust my dogs.
> The people on this forum may surround themselves with families & friends with idiotic un educated brats & equally stupid parents....my children have grown up with dogs since birth as have I, they help train, walk, groom, cuddle and care for 'our family pets' I have never & will never feel the need to not allow access to rooms or remove them or the dogs from a room out of fear for the dog or my children


A friend of mine had utter trust in her children and dogs - all were very well behaved. One day she heard a scream and her GSD who had grown up with her 4 children had bitten one of them badly, so that he required hospital treatment. The child claimed that he had done nothing. She ended up having the dog PTS (after trying a rescue) which was enormously hard as he'd been her husband's dog; her husband had recently passed away after a sudden illness. All heart breaking.

Her children are definitely not un educated brats and she is absolutely not stupid - what a massively offensive assumption to make. They are all just human and her dog was just a dog - sometimes things go horribly wrong.


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## Goodwin1980 (Dec 3, 2012)

I have 3 children 10,5 and 18 months and a basset pup 
My children interact and play ,help feed etc and he's becoming part of our family but even if I go the toilet I put him behind the gate in the kitchen until I come back down. Right or wrong I would hate to think one of the kids tripped over him or something and he bit as a reaction because he was scared , he can't come tell me he's been hurt so surely removing him whilst I can't supervise is best ? I can't say if I trust him because he's a pup n nipping still etc but even when he's older ill do the same.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

I read somewhere that dogs see human children as a different species to human adults. If they are socialised with children then they will be safe with them. It's dogs who were not socialised with children when they were puppies that are more likely to harm a child. Same goes for dogs with small furries, birds, cats and livestock 

I see nothing wrong with letting socialised dogs and children play freely together. My dogs have been brought up around my Grandkids and vice versa. I supervise the toddler with them because he's not old enough to understand instructions or remember anything he was told more than 2 minutes ago, plus he's at that explore everything age and is likely to poke the dogs in their eyes. I don't lock them in together so the dogs are free to get away from the kids if they want, but they seldom leave them alone because the kids play tug and fetch with them a lot, which they all love.

I handle my dogs all over their body so if they are handled by the children it is something they are used to. Nothing wrong with holding & pulling tails and ears so long as it's not done maliciously or to cause pain IMO. 

I have taught/am teaching my grandkids who are 5, 5, 3 & 18 months (as I taught my daughter when she was a kid) about dog body language so they know what different growls, baring teeth, lip licking etc mean and that if the dog walks away they are to leave him/her alone.

My eldest granddaughter goes through the dogs training with them using the same voice commands and hand signals as me and she can get them to do anything for her. It's wonderful to watch and I'm sure the younger ones will soon pick it up too.

I loved growing up with a dog, so did my daughter and now my grandkids are getting the same experience.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MaisyMoomin said:


> We're absolutely none of you brought up with a family dog????


I was brought up with at least two big dogs at a time and if one of them had bitten me, the first thing my parents would have asked would have been: what did I do to the dog?

I remember my brother got bitten by our old and trusted collie x retriever because he kicked a box containing the dog's bones. He had to go to hospital, but nobody ever blamed the dog. My brother was 11 at the time and was told that he knew darned well how touchy the dog was about his box of bones.



Phoolf said:


> I suspect this is more to do with people leaving dog s*** in children's play areas more than being 'scared' of dogs. You can thank all the irresponsible owners out there.


You are quite right and it makes me more angry than anything. I saw some this morning right next to the children's play area on the heath.



Dogless said:


> A friend of mine had utter trust in her children and dogs - all were very well behaved. One day she heard a scream and her GSD who had grown up with her 4 children had bitten one of them badly, so that he required hospital treatment. The child claimed that he had done nothing. She ended up having the dog PTS (after trying a rescue) which was enormously hard as he'd been her husband's dog; her husband had recently passed away after a sudden illness. All heart breaking.
> 
> Her children are definitely not un educated brats and she is absolutely not stupid - what a massively offensive assumption to make. They are all just human and her dog was just a dog - sometimes things go horribly wrong.


If the dog had been her husband's and he had recently passed away, that was quite likely the motive behind the dog's strange behaviour. Animals feel things a lot more than people give them credit for.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

metaldog said:


> I read somewhere that dogs see human children as a different species to human adults. If they are socialised with children then they will be safe with them. It's dogs who were not socialised with children when they were puppies that are more likely to harm a child. Same goes for dogs with small furries, birds, cats and livestock
> 
> I see nothing wrong with letting socialised dogs and children play freely together. My dogs have been brought up around my Grandkids and vice versa. I supervise the toddler with them because he's not old enough to understand instructions or remember anything he was told more than 2 minutes ago, plus he's at that explore everything age and is likely to poke the dogs in their eyes. I don't lock them in together so the dogs are free to get away from the kids if they want, but they seldom leave them alone because the kids play tug and fetch with them a lot, which they all love.
> 
> ...


That's why I used to deliberately take my pups up to small children and ask their parents if the kid could stroke them. I don't like kids, but I wanted to dogs to like them. It was a bit scary with Diva as she had never been close to one before, but she turned out to love them.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I don't have a labrador but I doubt it matters what breed of dog you have, what the hell are you doing allowing a dog to be abused in this manner? You took the dog on, it is up to you to protect him/her and teach your children some respect.
> 
> If anyone ever did any of those things to one of my dogs, they would know what it felt like.
> 
> Please do, the sooner the better. She is a dog not an animated teddy bear.


So the people who have the small yappy dogs who dress them up, arnt doing anything wrong?!!


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

metaldog said:


> I read somewhere that dogs see human children as a different species to human adults. If they are socialised with children then they will be safe with them. It's dogs who were not socialised with children when they were puppies that are more likely to harm a child. Same goes for dogs with small furries, birds, cats and livestock
> 
> I see nothing wrong with letting socialised dogs and children play freely together. My dogs have been brought up around my Grandkids and vice versa. I supervise the toddler with them because he's not old enough to understand instructions or remember anything he was told more than 2 minutes ago, plus he's at that explore everything age and is likely to poke the dogs in their eyes. I don't lock them in together so the dogs are free to get away from the kids if they want, but they seldom leave them alone because the kids play tug and fetch with them a lot, which they all love.
> 
> ...


Omg thank you!! That's exactly how I was trying to explain! X


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

My parents got me my first dog at 11 years old. I was responsible for feeding him, walking him, training him etc and yup, I was alone with him a hell of a lot. I did a few stupid things to him and it is only thanks to his excellent bite inhibition that I never suffered serious injury because of it. My younger brother, who was 8 at the time was also left alone with him while watching tv or reading a book. I don't think he ever did anything stupid but who knows? My youngest brother, just 2 at the time, was NEVER left alone with him for several years. He would jump on Shadow, kick him, pull him around and do various other things that would likely get him bitten so whenever mum couldn't keep an eye on them they were separated. And it didn't matter that he was told not to do those things or that he was punished for doing them he just kept right on doing them whenever he thought nobody was looking.

So personally I think to some extent it depends on child and dog. A quiet child like my younger brother is a completely different kettle of fish to one like my youngest brother. A dog like Shadow with excellent bite inhibition and a high tolerance for children is a different kettle of fish to a dog like Rupert with no bite inhibition and who is easily frightened and stressed.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> That's why I used to deliberately take my pups up to small children and ask their parents if the kid could stroke them. I don't like kids, but I wanted to dogs to like them. It was a bit scary with Diva as she had never been close to one before, but she turned out to love them.


So you risked taking a dog, who you didn't know how would react upto a small child? ut:


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

I've got the 3 sibes and human puppy is due in 9 weeks 3 days!

As a baby/small toddler he will NEVER be left unsupervised around the baby, even if they are all sleeping, all it takes is for him to make a noise and one of them go and investigate and the moses basket could end up tipping over (they may jump up to check on him)

I have a stair gate seperating my front and back room (kinda open plan), so if the baby is sleeping downstairs or playing on the floor and I need to nip into the kitchen or go for a pee, the dogs will go behind the gate for a few minutes, disaster averted 

I trust my dogs 100%, they have all been well socialised with kids and adore them, I'm sure mine will be no different, but I'm not going to tempt fate by leaving them alone together!


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> So you risked taking a dog, who you didn't know how would react upto a small child? ut:


It was to socialise a pup, I doubt the pup would have done any damage even if it was a little nervous.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Please refer back to my post 163 in which I said ' You have made a broad side swipe that isn't really constructive in any form and reduced this thread to petty factionalism, and before y*ou raise the antiquated piteous response that someone else began this, refer back*.'
> 
> I've already predicted your reply. Clear up your own crap (you may require a bin liner as opposed to the dog bag) and jog on sweetie if that's the best you can do. Try to be a touch more constructive next time you post. Taking responsibility is a very adult thing to teach your children BTW
> 
> Anyway i said well done and I added a smiley face ;P


But when you finish your post with the kind of comment you did everything before it seems pointless! I didn't resort to name calling and pointless nasty comments! Big Grin  best I can do :lol: that would some how mean I cared! :smilewinkgrin: I have no interest in your problems!


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Wiz201 said:


> It was to socialise a pup, I doubt the pup would have done any damage even if it was a little nervous.


Yes but how would ou know?


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> So the people who have the small yappy dogs who dress them up, arnt doing anything wrong?!!


that is a whole different arguement right there :lol:

I don't think any dog should be left alone for a child, no matter how trained, or respectful they are, it only takes one bite, that could happen for a number of reasons, and the child is hurt and the dog is PTS


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Originally Posted by MollySmith 
Most threads on PF are constructive. It's possible to learn something as in context most are made from equal starting points. I fear that it escapes your intelligence that most critical judgements should be balanced in order to maintain a debate. You have made a broad side swipe that isn't really constructive in any form and reduced this thread to petty factionalism, and before you raise the antiquated piteous response that someone else began this, refer back. That's my judgement without bringing into account any emotive argument (by this I mean argument in the scholarly, educational sense as opposed to your pot and pan throwing one-sided technique that appears to be about riling people). I realise that my experiences have taught me how to be constructive, that's far more 'real life' than you will ever know judging by your badly spelt, rude and posts that lack a lot of empathy. I'd rather have gone through all I have to be the person I am than to have given birth and be the person you appear to be.

Anyway congratulations for proving, if ever it was required, that working ovaries does not make intelligence. Well done.






Was that about me


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

CaliDog said:


> that is a whole different arguement right there :lol:
> 
> I don't think any dog should be left alone for a child, no matter how trained, or respectful they are, it only takes one bite, that could happen for a number of reasons, and the dog is PTS


Yes best people do it, or even just putting a jumper on a cold dog, does that mean its "wrong"?


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

No the nasty comment was for my benefit....cut deep I can tell ya


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> So you risked taking a dog, who you didn't know how would react upto a small child? ut:


A young puppy of a few weeks old who has shown so signs of intent human aggression is hardly going to maul a child in a controlled meeting 

How else do puppies of owners who dont have children get their puppy to meet children?

If the puppy owner is happy and the childs parent is happy and the child is happy then whats the problem?

Its abit different to taking a dog youve just adopted up to children


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Originally Posted by MollySmith
> Most threads on PF are constructive. It's possible to learn something as in context most are made from equal starting points. I fear that it escapes your intelligence that most critical judgements should be balanced in order to maintain a debate. You have made a broad side swipe that isn't really constructive in any form and reduced this thread to petty factionalism, and before you raise the antiquated piteous response that someone else began this, refer back. That's my judgement without bringing into account any emotive argument (by this I mean argument in the scholarly, educational sense as opposed to your pot and pan throwing one-sided technique that appears to be about riling people). I realise that my experiences have taught me how to be constructive, that's far more 'real life' than you will ever know judging by your badly spelt, rude and posts that lack a lot of empathy. I'd rather have gone through all I have to be the person I am than to have given birth and be the person you appear to be.
> 
> Anyway congratulations for proving, if ever it was required, that working ovaries does not make intelligence. Well done.
> ...


It was more about how wonderful it was to have been through crap and come out of it more capable of an intelligent judgement and perhaps in trying so hard to have children, they are more precious to me than perhaps those who merely have to look at a bloke to be pregnant.

The insult that you and your friend (in liking this person's post's I assume you must share many opinions so forgive the assumption if I am wrong that you are friends or have previous) is not as obvious as name calling but the odious assertion that those who do not have children are less qualified. The lack of empathy is utterly astonishing but I must say it's countered by the hilarity that the person posting is willing to hide behind a screen to type such things.

Many do lack the life skills in order to see the insult that began this backwards and forwards when it's right there on the screen. Baffling in fact. Hence my comment about intelligence.

To be honest you can't teach some people can you?


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Yes best people do it, or even just putting a jumper on a cold dog, does that mean its "wrong"?


I am not going into the whole arguement.

But putting on a jumper as a dog who cold is different than dressing the dog up


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> But when you finish your post with the kind of comment you did everything before it seems pointless! I didn't resort to name calling and pointless nasty comments! Big Grin  best I can do :lol: that would some how mean I cared! :smilewinkgrin: I have no interest in your problems!


Well we agree on something, I'll go back to my studies on navel gazing now in peace.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> It was more about how wonderful it was to have been through crap and come out of it more capable of an intelligent judgement and perhaps in trying so hard to have children, they are more precious to me than perhaps those who merely have to look at a bloke to be pregnant.


how do you know what people have been through? You don't. Your making snobby judgements. You know nothing.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

MollySmith said:


> Well we agree on something, I'll go back to my studies on navel gazing now in peace.


Your coming across like you have one big chip on your shoulder, I'm not sure a dog forums quite the right place for it. I don't feel sorry for you & I know you wouldn't want me to but seriously theirs a time & a place, the comments your making are making me quite uncomfortable.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> So the people who have the small yappy dogs who dress them up, arnt doing anything wrong?!!


Whoever said that? It is wrong to dress a dog up for the entertainment of children, no matter what the breed or size. I don't see where I said it was ok to do it with small dogs.



xbaileyboox said:


> So you risked taking a dog, who you didn't know how would react upto a small child? ut:


If you know dogs, you have a fair idea and we are talking about puppies apart from Diva, who was three. But bearing in mind that most children want to throw their arms around them, it is far better to be sure before that happens.



Wiz201 said:


> It was to socialise a pup, I doubt the pup would have done any damage even if it was a little nervous.


Thank you, and no they were not nervous, just wanted to play. As I said, if you know dogs you can tell.



xbaileyboox said:


> Yes but how would ou know?


If you know dogs, you would know. Obviously the parent does not have to allow the meeting, that is up to them.



Milliepoochie said:


> A young puppy of a few weeks old who has shown so signs of intent human aggression is hardly going to maul a child in a controlled meeting
> 
> How else do puppies of owners who dont have children get their puppy to meet children?
> 
> ...


Precisely. When I first had Diva a man called out and asked if his toddler could stroke her, first time she had been close to a child. I told him to wait till I got there as I had not had her long enough to know. So I galloped over, clipped a lead on and we allowed the meeting, which was a success.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Wiz201 said:


> It was to socialise a pup, I doubt the pup would have done any damage even if it was a little nervous.


I thought Diva was an adult when Newfiesmum got her 

But even with an adult you need to start somewhere. I judged Ruperts reaction to children from a distance and gradually got closer to a child I knew well and who was dog savvy and understood that she needed to do exactly as she was told. A good while later her less dog savvy friends joined in and as a result became more dog savvy while helping Rupert learn that children were nice. He was never a fan of loud, grabby kids or unpredictable toddlers but would happily go to a quiet child for a fuss.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> how do you know what people have been through? You don't. Your making snobby judgements. You know nothing.


Let's just say I know different things to you, if we were all the same that would boring.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

xbaileyboox said:


> how do you know what people have been through? You don't. Your making snobby judgements. You know nothing.


Hahaha coming from the person who doesn't know whether to trust her dog because of google. Think it acceptable to abuse your dog so its used to it when the kid's do it and even was debating rehoming her pet because outside influences.

Never ceases to amaze me how arrogant and how low, low lifes can get.

Sorry to be petty but I severely dislike people like you two and thank god our paths never cross.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Your coming across like you have one big chip on your shoulder, I'm not sure a dog forums quite the right place for it. I don't feel sorry for you & I know you wouldn't want me to but seriously theirs a time & a place, the comments your making are making me quite uncomfortable.


And again we agree. Perhaps my honestly at my problems is a bit too much. Let's just beg to differ. We have rather digressed off the main subject and I am sure it's one that will rumble on. Let's move on yes?


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

You both no feck all about my life, or how hard it toke me to have my children. How dare you say that you don't think there lives to me are as important and yours are. You know **** all! I think your a snobby women, who is very lonely! I feel sorry for your children! Not mine.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

xbaileyboox said:


> You both no feck all about my life, or how hard it toke me to have my children. How dare you say that you don't think there lives to me are as important and yours are. You know **** all! I think your a snobby women, who is very lonely! I feel sorry for your children! Not mine.


So if it was so hard for you to have children why are you bashing a woman who too has had a hard time and at the moment has no children? Surely as a mother that would make you sympathetic? Or maybe that's just me ut:

I'm not a snobby woman, far from it if you know me  However I have VERY low tolerance for nasty people  Kapish. Good.

Oh and I don't have children at this moment in time but a lush OH and 2 lovely dogs, so far from the spinster image you seem to be painting. But glad you're doing such a swell job with yours. 

I say we ignore certain things and get back to the topic at hand!


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> You both no feck all about my life, or how hard it toke me to have my children. How dare you say that you don't think there lives to me are as important and yours are. You know **** all! I think your a snobby women, who is very lonely! I feel sorry for your children! Not mine.


bloody hell calm down!


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> I thought Diva was an adult when Newfiesmum got her
> 
> But even with an adult you need to start somewhere. I judged Ruperts reaction to children from a distance and gradually got closer to a child I knew well and who was dog savvy and understood that she needed to do exactly as she was told. A good while later her less dog savvy friends joined in and as a result became more dog savvy while helping Rupert learn that children were nice. He was never a fan of loud, grabby kids or unpredictable toddlers but would happily go to a quiet child for a fuss.


She was but Ferdie and Joshua were puppies. I was rather thrown in the deep end with Diva as a toddler wanted to stroke her the first time she had been close to one, but as you say you have to start somewhere.

If the parent knows enough to ask, it is a fair bet that the child is going to be fairly controlled.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

CaliDog said:


> bloody hell calm down!


No. Because she has no idea what myself has been through. I'm sorry but my children are my world, I would die for them. I think I'm a bloody good mum considering what iv been through. Both my children are well behave, have manors and treat bailey like a family member.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> No. Because she has no idea what myself has been through. I'm sorry but my children are my world, I would die for them. I think I'm a bloody good mum considering what iv been through. Both my children are well behave, have manors and treat bailey like a family member.


Does that mean they pull each other's ears and dress each other up as well as the dog? Strange way to treat a family member.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> No. Because she has no idea what myself has been through. I'm sorry but my children are my world, I would die for them. I think I'm a bloody good mum considering what iv been through. Both my children are well behave, have manors and treat bailey like a family member.


no one is saying you are a bad mum, or doubting how much you love your children. All i am saying is there are better ways of dealing with it, rather than effing and blinding and insulting people.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> You both no feck all about my life, or how hard it toke me to have my children. How dare you say that you don't think there lives to me are as important and yours are. You know **** all! I think your a snobby women, who is very lonely! *I feel sorry for your children!* Not mine.


I don't have them.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Does that mean they pull each other's ears and dress each other up as well as the dog? Strange way to treat a family member.


Lmao, so the other women on here who said she does this, are you not going to say anything to her? Thought not..


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> No. Because she has no idea what myself has been through. I'm sorry but my children are my world, I would die for them. I think I'm a bloody good mum considering what iv been through. Both my children are well behave, have manors and treat bailey like a family member.


No and you clearly have no idea either. Be grateful for that. Shall we move on now.


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Lmao, so the other women on here who said she does this, are you not going to say anything to her? Thought not..


I don't think ANYONE should do it ut:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> Lmao, so the other women on here who said she does this, are you not going to say anything to her? Thought not..


I haven't read all 22 pages so if someone else has confessed to abusing their dog in the name of training, I have missed it. The same thing goes for them though; children need to be taught respect for animals. Animals should not have to put up with abuse such as you describe because you can't be bothered to teach your kids how to behave around them.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Have a read 

Teaching Your Dog to Tolerate and Love Children : Dog Obedience Training Blog


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

xbaileyboox said:


> Have a read
> 
> Teaching Your Dog to Tolerate and Love Children : Dog Obedience Training Blog


Hahaha....



ouesi said:


> Maisy, guess what?
> I have children.
> You know what else?
> I grew up with dogs.
> ...


*Have a read *

Stop trying to justify pulling your dogs hair, ears and tail is training. It's not if anything it's pushing them further or making them fearful.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> No. Because she has no idea what myself has been through. I'm sorry but my children are my world, I would die for them. I think I'm a bloody good mum considering what iv been through. Both my children are well behave, have manors and treat bailey like a family member.


Let's get this straight for once and for all because let's face it, this thread will blow up PF if you don't stop. First, you are wrong in your post I quoted above, I do not have children. You do. We are polls apart on that and believe you me I've had to conquer that divide with people much more important than someone I don't know on a board. It doesn't mean that I have no more right to post here than you.

You don't understand my posts. That doesn't make me snobby! How? Show me? Ask me if you don't understand! It's very easy, you can ask here or PM me, I honestly don't mind! Don't kick out if you don't get it, you'll push help away quicker than my lead reactive dog. So I can't have kids, but at least grant me some brains. I've got two degrees so shoot me! I do that to stop the demons waking me in the middle of the night. Demons that you, *you very lucky lady,* do not have because you are blessed with children. That said, I don't assume that having children doesn't not bring it's own issues, I am sure it does. I am not daft.

*MaisyMoomi* said that she didn't' think I wanted her to feel sorry for me, and you know what, while I realise we've been debating all this heatedly, she's absolutely right. I don't, good on her for seeing that.

What I took issue with is the divide that was created in assuming parents know best. That *xbaileybox* is what I realise from your recent posts that you didn't appreciate and have no concept off. I don't do competitive infertility.

That's it. I'm walking away from this thread right now, I am done

Can we lock this thread please Mods?


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> Have a read
> 
> Teaching Your Dog to Tolerate and Love Children : Dog Obedience Training Blog


SO youve gone from 'every ones being mean to me' to a cheeky look at at this article - Im right mode lol

Seriously grow up - What does this prove?

Not everything you read on the internet is right 

If you want to teach your dog to put up with ear pulling etc thats up to you.

Personally I think with effective management and your children knowing what is acceptable or not and putting dog away when other children are around surely your dog should never have to put up with having its ears or tail pulled?

Im all for desensitizing a dog to having its ear examined - rubbing the inside of the lobe (Spent ages getting Millie relaxed whilst I do this) - Having each paw lifted - examining each paw pad etc but getting your dog desensitized to having bodily parts pulled is just crazy.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> Have a read
> 
> Teaching Your Dog to Tolerate and Love Children : Dog Obedience Training Blog


And your point is? Just because something is on the internet does not mean that it knows what it is talking about. A very famous tv personality thinks you teach a dog by bullying it, but sensible people think he is an idiot. Just because some other idiot has declared on their website that it is ok to pull a dog's ears does not convince me that they are an authority on the subject.

My dogs never had to put up with anything like that in order to play nicely with the children, so I see no reason why any other dogs should.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

From when our pups were a few weeks old we stimulated ears between thumb & fore finger with circular motions, fingers in mouths, brushed with different textures, shouting, music, tv, hoovering, instruments, firework audios, checking over from top to tail, its desensitising creating a well rounded confident pup.
I don't think any kind of desensitising can be dismissed completely.

Edited: aghhhhhh MollySmith if & when you have children as a parent you will realise you are right you will know your own children inside out & upside flippin down! Hence why parents get on their high horse when non child owning people (sounds right on a dog forum) try and tell us something they can only have an opinion on. Parents do know best, I am one & I know what's right for my family.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

MaisyMoomin said:


> From when our pups were a few weeks old we stimulated ears between thumb & fore finger with circular motions, fingers in mouths, brushed with different textures, shouting, music, tv, hoovering, instruments, firework audios, checking over from top to tail, its desensitising creating a well rounded confident pup.
> I don't think any kind of desensitising can be dismissed completely.


Not the same as deliberately teaching your kids to pull the dog's ears and tail so that he is used to it, is it? Most of us would do as you describe so that the dog is happy with a vet examination, but that isn't hurting the dog in any way is it?


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> SO youve gone from 'every ones being mean to me' to a cheeky look at at this article - Im right mode lol
> 
> Seriously grow up - What does this prove?
> 
> ...


Actually it's a very interesting article  ETA and there's nothing wrong with using references to respected positive reinforcement training websites to back up your argument.

Desensitising your dog to having body parts pulled is quite sensible if you are likely ever to meet other humans, especially small ones, with your dog. Call me crazy as much as you want because I have desensitised my dogs using the exact same techniques as shown in that article for the safety of my grandchildren and the rest of the world at large.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> And your point is? Just because something is on the internet does not mean that it knows what it is talking about. A very famous tv personality thinks you teach a dog by bullying it, but sensible people think he is an idiot. Just because some other idiot has declared on their website that it is ok to pull a dog's ears does not convince me that they are an authority on the subject.
> 
> My dogs never had to put up with anything like that in order to play nicely with the children, so I see no reason why any other dogs should.


Because your dogs aren't around children fully.
I would rather know if I touched out was abit rough stroking bailey that she wouldn't snap, Incase unlikely they do it to her she won't flinch


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Not the same as deliberately teaching your kids to pull the dog's ears and tail so that he is used to it, is it? Most of us would do as you describe so that the dog is happy with a vet examination, but that isn't hurting the dog in any way is it?


Where did I say my kids do it?ut:


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Where did I say my kids do it?ut:


Here.............



xbaileyboox said:


> Since we go bailey we've pulled her tail, hair ears,so she's full used to it and nt bothered. We did this so if godforbid one of the kids did, it wouldn't bother her.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

CaliDog said:


> Here.............


It doesn't say her kids do? It says she's taken precautions incase they ever did!


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

MaisyMoomin said:


> It doesn't say her kids do? It says she's taken precautions incase they ever did!


it says WE , i can only assume she means the whole household either way its been done


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

metaldog said:


> Actually it's a very interesting article  ETA and there's nothing wrong with using references to respected positive reinforcement training websites to back up your argument.
> 
> Desensitising your dog to having body parts pulled is quite sensible if you are likely ever to meet other humans, especially small ones, with your dog. Call me crazy as much as you want because I have desensitised my dogs using the exact same techniques as shown in that article for the safety of my grandchildren and the rest of the world at large.


All my children grew up with my dogs and only on one occasion did my son, who has learning difficulties, go too far. My children and my grandchildren all had great fun playing nicely with my dogs, a mongrel and a retriever, and the dogs did not need their ears pulled in order to achieve this. Rather the children were taught that the dogs were animals, not toys.



xbaileyboox said:


> Because your dogs aren't around children fully.
> I would rather know if I touched out was abit rough stroking bailey that she wouldn't snap, Incase unlikely they do it to her she won't flinch


These are not the first and only dogs I have ever had; I have had two dogs while my children and grandchildren were growing up, see above.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

xbaileyboox said:


> Because your dogs aren't around children fully.
> I would rather know if I touched out was abit rough stroking bailey that she wouldn't snap, Incase unlikely they do it to her she won't flinch


Okay so what about my sisters border collie who is constantly around 4 children? She applies the same rules as me.

My brothers husky who is around 1 child? Applies the same rules as me.

Sisters Staff x whippet (lurcher) around 2 kids all the time. Applies the same rules

My nephews father who has 2 crossbreeds around my nephew and his 2 other children. Applies the same rules.

It isn't rocket science.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

CaliDog said:


> Here.............


I think the words god forbid means it is not behaviour that is encouraged, in fact quite the opposite.



> We did this so if *god forbid one of the kids did*, it wouldn't bother her.


It never ceases to amaze me how things on this forum get taken completely out of context.

Seriously no dogs don't enjoy having their ears pulled, but sometimes it may happen. So surely it's better to socialise and plan for it than wait for something terrible to happen because you looked away to answer the phone or deal with an emergency with one of the other children?

I don't know of any puppy who likes walking on a lead most of them resist it and when they do get taught to do it none of them like loose lead walking. Why is it ok to train these behaviours for the safety of the dogs but not to train for over zealous petting?


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## SammyJo (Oct 22, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Okay so what about my sisters border collie who is constantly around 4 children? She applies the same rules as me.
> 
> My brothers husky who is around 1 child? Applies the same rules as me.
> 
> ...


I think you should take precautions.... how about some 'tail pulling' ut:


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

metaldog said:


> Actually it's a very interesting article  ETA and there's nothing wrong with using references to respected positive reinforcement training websites to back up your argument.
> 
> Desensitising your dog to having body parts pulled is quite sensible if you are likely ever to meet other humans, especially small ones, with your dog. Call me crazy as much as you want because I have desensitised my dogs using the exact same techniques as shown in that article for the safety of my grandchildren and the rest of the world at large.


I fully understand that - I really do.

I think my gripe is with the flippant and somewhat c*cky attitude of some.

Although according to some on this thread I have no idea what im talking about because I dont have children myself  But Millie lived on site of a primary school for over two years so of course she has to be happy and relaxed around children 

But considering how proud some people are on here of their ability to leave their children alone with their dogs maybe if a more proactive approach was taken such a emphasis wouldnt have to be put on physically pulling a dogs tail or ears so you know they will put up with it 

Lets hope none of these people so proud of their children being alone with their dogs ever have to go through a heart breaking decision and that nothing ever happens.

Each to their own - Personally whilst I would always want Millie used to a certain extent of rough handling and I believe the majority of well socialised balanced dogs take this in their stride anyway I certainly wont start physically pulling her tail or ears.

Edited to add - Then again millie isnt a labrador so maybe different rules apply lol


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

metaldog said:


> I think the words god forbid means it is not behaviour that is encouraged, in fact quite the opposite.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how things on this forum get taken completely out of context.
> 
> ...


I would not call pulling ears and tails "zealous petting", personally. Teaching loose leash walking is a necessary part of owning a dog so that both of you enjoy walking together. Teaching a dog to have his ears pulled is not necessary; what is necessary is teaching the kid that they are dealing with a living creature.


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

metaldog said:


> I think the words god forbid means it is not behaviour that is encouraged, in fact quite the opposite.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how things on this forum get taken completely out of context.
> 
> ...


this is why i think it shouldn't be done, people may do it and that is there choice, it may work well for them but its just something i couldn't see my self doing to my dog


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

SammyJo said:


> I think you should take precautions.... how about some 'tail pulling' ut:


Oooh the husky tail would be tempting! Or the ears on my sisters lurchers, you could get a right handful of them :lol:


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> All my children grew up with my dogs and only on one occasion did my son, who has learning difficulties, go too far. My children and my grandchildren all had great fun playing nicely with my dogs, a mongrel and a retriever, and the dogs did not need their ears pulled in order to achieve this. * Rather the children were taught that the dogs were animals, not toys.*
> 
> These are not the first and only dogs I have ever had; I have had two dogs while my children and grandchildren were growing up, see above.


yes this is true but it is also true that children are not always obedient because they have short attention spans. I always tell the children not to hurt hte dogs but accidents do happen, they may fall and grab onto the dog for stability.

I'd rather teach my dogs that children's grabbing hands are a positive thing to be ignored than run the risk of one of my grandchildren getting bitten.


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## hippymama (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't trust my dog(not a lab) or my children completely . this is our first family dog so my children have not been brought up with dogs around , they are still learning how to behave around dogs and the dog is still learning how to be around them (he is only 4/5 months old ) , I have nipped out of the room on occasion leaving them alone together but only if they are all occupied , as in dog asleep kids watching tv . I would never leave them to interact on their own . 
perhaps I would be more relaxed if the kids were older , mine are only 4 and 2.

I think its all very dependant on the dog , the child ect


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Dogs nails have to be cut, doesn't mean dogs like them but as time goes in they do. Bailey hated her feet touched, she ended up having them filed/played with once a week, she now loves going to the groomers, she finds it relaxing


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

metaldog said:


> yes this is true but it is also true that children are not always obedient because they have short attention spans. I always tell the children not to hurt hte dogs but accidents do happen, they may fall and grab onto the dog for stability.
> 
> I'd rather teach my dogs that children's grabbing hands are a positive thing to be ignored than run the risk of one of my grandchildren getting bitten.


On many occasions my grandson as a young toddler would stumble and grab the dog's fur for support. I even caught him standing on his once to reach the worktop, and the dog was never bothered. I don't think dogs are bothered by the normal antics of young children in their own home, so I see no reason to deliberately pull tails or ears or anything to get the point across.

Even Ferdie has experienced a young child hanging on to his coat to steady themselves, and he was not brought up with children. Not something I would allow to carry on, but it has happened and although he did not look impressed, he was not about to retaliate.

Dogs know when a child is being a child and when it is being a brat.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

xbaileyboox said:


> Dogs nails have to be cut, doesn't mean dogs like them but as time goes in they do. Bailey hated her feet touched, she ended up having them filed/played with once a week, she now loves going to the groomers, she finds it relaxing


Necessary desensitization, totally unrelated to pulling tails.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

CaliDog said:


> this is why i think it shouldn't be done, people may do it and that is there choice, it may work well for them but its just something i couldn't see my self doing to my dog


:lol:

This demonstrates exactly what I mean by things being taken out of context. My point was that puppies don't enjoy walking on a collar or harness and lead equally as much as ear pulling, but that was conveniently ignored so you could prove your point. 

I'm not being antsy with you, I am just using your post as an exampl of what I meant


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> I fully understand that - I really do.
> 
> I think my gripe is with the flippant and somewhat c*cky attitude of some.
> 
> ...


I'm very proud as it seems most on here have dogs they can't trust or imaginary children they won't/ wouldnt trust.

A dog living in proximity to a primary school  being happy & relaxed around children isn't the same thing as growing up with them in the same house 24/7.

I've personally not pulled any of my dogs extremities but I can see why parents may decide to take proactive precautions.


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## Milliepoochie (Feb 13, 2011)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I'm very proud as it seems most on here have dogs they can't trust or imaginary children they won't/ wouldnt trust.
> 
> *A dog living in proximity to a primary school *
> I've personally not pulled any of my dogs extremities but I can see why parents may decide to take proactive precautions.


? ? Explain?

Is this not a suitable amount of exposure to youngster to have an opinion? 

And no not im Proximity - She live @ the primiary school on site. Our front drive was the entrance to the school - having 300 children walk in every day.

Our garden / property was surrounded 360' by primary school.

Children running in and out of the gardens getting toys - Hands being shoved through fences to 'stroke the puppy' and having 20 dog stied to our front gate at 15:00.

But hey us who dont have children dont have a clue.

Lets just hope if you ever post with something gone wrong that posters are more supportive than you were to the poor poster whose neighbours dog broke into their own land and was involved in a fight - Afterall you were so supportive.

This thread seems to have turned into a whose go the best ovaries lol. Im out.


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## xbaileyboox (Apr 26, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> ? ? Explain?
> 
> Is this not a suitable amount of exposure to youngster to have an opinion?


I don't think it is, it would be like taking a puppy to a park, seeing the other dogs, but staying the other side of the field and not going near them.


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Milliepoochie said:


> ? ? Explain?
> 
> Is this not a suitable amount of exposure to youngster to have an opinion?


I don't think so no, how can it be?


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## CaliDog (Jun 3, 2012)

this thread is going round in circles and getting nowhere to quote milliepoochie "am out"


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Milliepoochie said:


> ? ? Explain?
> 
> Is this not a suitable amount of exposure to youngster to have an opinion?
> 
> ...


The situation you describe would be far more risky than having your own children in your own home with your dog. At least you know what your own kids are capable of and you can sort them out if necessary. I think that could have been an accident waiting to happen personally.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> I don't think so no, how can it be?


So basically if I was a mother, like you. But had the same views I do now, would that still make it void in your opinion?

I can see your point, you have a good set up with your children and dogs but you are lucky for that. Not everyone has your kids or your dogs. So you can understand why others feel it necessary to take precautions yes?

Just because we have a differing opinion to you doesn't make it wrong.


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## metaldog (Nov 11, 2009)

Milliepoochie said:


> ? ? Explain?
> 
> Lets just hope if you ever post with something gone wrong that posters are more supportive than you were to t*he poor poster whose neighbours dog broke into their own land *and was involved in a fight - Afterall you were so supportive.
> 
> This thread seems to have turned into a whose go the best overies lol. Im out.


That was me getting the slating then :blushing:

Isn't it crazy how you can disagree with another member so strongly on one thread yet agree with them on another :crazy:


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

sammyjo said:


> am i allowed? :aureola:
> 
> Molly is a labrador....honest, she's a "long haired labrador" :aureola:


love it


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## MaisyMoomin (Mar 14, 2012)

Patterdale_lover said:


> So basically if I was a mother, like you. But had the same views I do now, would that still make it void in your opinion?
> 
> I can see your point, you have a good set up with your children and dogs but you are lucky for that. Not everyone has your kids or your dogs. So you can understand why others feel it necessary to take precautions yes?
> 
> Just because we have a differing opinion to you doesn't make it wrong.


Absolutely and I'm sure a lot posting have dogs that haven't been brought up with children so will have a completely different view! It's not wrong, it's judgmental I guess, until your living in the situation your views are based on 'your own' situations which are nothing like my own or the ops. I'm posting on this thread purely as a parent with children & dogs


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

MaisyMoomin said:


> Absolutely and I'm sure a lot posting have dogs that haven't been brought up with children so will have a completely different view! It's not wrong, it's judgmental I guess, until your living in the situation it's views based on your own situations which are nothing like my own or the ops. I'm posting on this thread purely as a parent with children & dogs


Yes, I understand what you're saying. However, if you have a look back at my posts. I stated at least 4 family members, with one or more children of their own with one or more dogs in the household. That have the same opinions and take the same action as I would, as this is also how my parents brought me up.

I guess it's just different strokes for different folks. Leaving a young child (8 or below) with a dog for any amount of time in my eyes is just too risky. Above that age the precautions can be loosened a bit providing the child is fully aware of the rules (You'd be surprised at some 16 year olds we meet at shows  ) For me your earlier post about desensitizing to all them different things was correct. However forceful "affection" is what I shall call it to avoid another argument, is unnecessary in my eyes and I hope you can see why.

I think we can all agree though and that the majority of us, want our (potential) children and have them take part in the day to day activities of caring for and loving a dog. That's something we're all united in?


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## Dogless (Feb 26, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> If the dog had been her husband's and he had recently passed away, that was quite likely the motive behind the dog's strange behaviour. Animals feel things a lot more than people give them credit for.


Yes; I agree - but the dog hadn't shown any other odd behaviour so he continued to be trusted. My point was simply that unfortunately things can go wrong.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Dogless said:


> Yes; I agree - but the dog hadn't shown any other odd behaviour so he continued to be trusted. My point was simply that unfortunately things can go wrong.


Oh, I see your point. It is just such a shame that dogs and cats cannot tell us how they are feeling. One of my cats packed her furry suitcases and moved next door but one when my husband died, which was very odd because of all three of them, she was the one who never had anything to do with him.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

xbaileyboox said:


> Can I also say my bailey been with us since 7weeks, she's used to the kids, there part of her life. I wouldn't trust a older rescue dog IMO as you don't know there past.


For my personal circumstances, it's the opposite way round.

I dont have children myself so my dogs were raised with the occasional meeting of my 2 oldest nephews, then my sister went on to have 3 more children whom the dogs see once in a while. They arent used to children but they arent bothered by them either. I wouldnt trust Jed with children as far as I could throw him and I NEVER allow strange kids to go anywhere near him. He is wary of strangers in general and can behave unpredictably at times, and has snapped at people when they have overstepped the mark. It's for this reason I wouldnt trust him. Flynn loves people and is very kissy and cuddly but he is big and powerful and behaves like a bull in a China shop. He can also get overexcited and although he wouldnt hurt a child deliberately, i'm not convinced he'd be well behaved enough not to hurt them in some way. These are the 2 dogs i've raised from pups.

However, my rescue is very gentle, quiet and well behaved and my nephews gravitate towards her for this reason. It's evident she has come from a family environment where there have been children around and biting somebody would be the last thing on her mind so out of all 3 of my dogs, she is the one i'd trust the most.

However, I dont allow any children, family or not, to manhandle them or overstep the mark in any way, and I certainly wouldnt leave them unsupervised. When my nephews stay over they arent left in the kitchen with the dogs and if they go in for a drink or something whilst nobody is there, they are always warned to leave them alone.

But they are old enough to know the rules, are way past the stage of squealing and screaming so can be trusted to behave.


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## Wiz201 (Jun 13, 2012)

xbaileyboox said:


> Yes but how would ou know?


body language, but Newfies mum seems pretty experienced owner TBH so I think she knows what she's doing


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Wiz201 said:


> body language, but Newfies mum seems pretty experienced owner TBH so I think she knows what she's doing


Why thank you!


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## GingerRogers (Sep 13, 2012)

I would never trust any child 100%  obviously I will take a common sense view on things, if the child has proved itself to be a sensible, thoughtful and obedient creature, I may leave them alone with my dog for a short period of time :yesnod: this would of course depend on my dog. Ginge is very excitable and I can see how her actions might get mistaken by non dog people, one of my nieces when younger would have screamed blue murder every time she went near her, eek, she licked me, eek, she touched me, eek she bit me, did she really, well no but her nose touched me . They now have a puppy 

Rory wasn't a labrador but I was fairly sure he was ok as a few situations proved, he didn't like children much either, not the sort that liked to jump on him and poke him, and would rather take himself off to another room or hide under the sofa, but he tolerated them when he had to and was gentler with them than he need be with an adult, and this was despite the fact that he was a rescue who we were fairly sure had been abused by the young children he lived with.

If an adult stepped on his foot he was quite likely to launch at them and nip, if a child did it he just yelped, every time.
There was one time a young girl, I say young she was 9 or so, old enough to know better and understand instructions. She was cuddling him and despite our warnings squeezed him too hard. So he barked *VERY *loudly in her ear  sorry it was funny if you were there not for her or the dog I am sure but you should have seen her jump! Another time our friends toddler (he had history he had stuck his foot in his ear before  but this was while Rory was quite happy to let him rub his bare feet in his ruff) had just learnt to beep noses. He crawled over to the dog and squeezed his nose before anyone could realise what was going to happen. Thankfully Rory was as stunned as we were and didn't do much more than bat an eyelid, another time when he both he and Rory were older, Rory was grumpier, he got too close, Rory took his arm in his mouth and moved it away, not a mark on the boys arm. All these incidents would seem to indicate that he was very unlikely to harm a child but I would never have left him alone with them as I say, you don't know what the child will do so how the dog might feel the need to escalate.

Also after an incident, you often hear people say, I don't understand, my dog has always been fine, he has grown up with kids, but how old is the dog now, is he a grumpy old man who doesn't want to put up with the things he once did, cos I am sure they might tolerate things but thats all it is. I bet if they could talk they would tell us they don't enjoy it.

Waffle waffle , I guess I am I can see both sides of this ridiculous circular argument, there is some benefit in desensitising your dog to these things, but I think a normal understanding that biting is inappropriate should be enough. If the children your dog is mixing with are likely to do stuff like that then they should be supervised and the dog given an escape route.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

I think it's important in these discussions to distinguish between sensitization and desensitization. 

Sensitization is what creates a "straw that broke the camel's" back scenario.
You don't get a dog used to having their ears pulled by pulling the ears. You just make the dog more irritated by ear pulling - sometimes to the point that the dog will snap at the hand reaching anywhere near the head.

Desensitization is when you pair a milder version of an unpleasant stimulus with a something the dog really likes. For example, if I wanted to desensitize a dog to getting his nails clipped, I would touch the clippers to the paw then treat. Repeat until the dog is anticipating the treat at being touched. Now I can put the clippers on a nail. Repeat the same process. Then up the ante to slight pressure as if I was going to clip but not all the way. Etc., etc.

It's kind of like the difference between preparing for a famine by starving yourself (so you're used to starving) or preparing for a famine by packing on the pounds (so when you do starve you have resources on hand to deal with it). 

It's important to note though. Even thoroughly desensitized dogs are not robots. (Yes, I said the R word )
Dogs, just like humans, have off days. I'm normally a mellow person, but this morning I was running behind, I wasn't feeling well, I was worried about something, distracted, and my darling husband accidentally set a heavy box down on my foot. I snapped at him. 
Dogs have that sort of moment too. 

This is where impulse control and bite inhibition come in. 
A dog who has impulse control will be able to check himself and not overreact to the situation. A dog with bite inhibition will do far less damage even if reacting. 

Another typical case:
Years ago, our old, grumpy, arthritic dog was sleeping at the foot of the stairs.
A certain toddler fell down the last few stairs and landed on top of the dog. The dog jumped up, roared in the toddler's face, but never put a tooth on him. The dog reacted, completely understandably, but his impulse control and bite inhibition kicked in to prevent a tragedy.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2013)

xbaileyboox said:


> You both no feck all about my life, or how hard it toke me to have my children. How dare you say that you don't think there lives to me are as important and yours are. You know **** all! I think your a snobby women, who is very lonely! I feel sorry for your children! Not mine.


haven't returned to the thread since yesterday , it has moved on

you know , yesterday two things struck a chord with me , pulling ears; pulling tail didn't want to comment further because quite frankly , i couldn't be arsed.

i've reared four children around dogs considerably larger than a labrador , never ever had to resort to such measures and never would.
i think one of the most important things you should learn when having a puppy or dog , is having the utmost respect for that animal and having their best interests at heart , you clearly weren't thinking for your poor dog when deciding to pull on her ears / tail when attempting to desensitize her to your children , it's probably one of the WORST things you could have ever done , period.
tbh , i think the dog would be better off rehomed if these are the measures used.


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## sharloid (Apr 15, 2012)

I'd never leave Broder alone with a child. The only little one we know is the OH's nephew who's about 3. If Broder even tries to lick him he runs away screaming so I'm sure he'd get blamed for something he didn't do if no one was there to witness it.


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## Bonsai (Jun 9, 2012)

Wow this got unnecessarily nasty at one point

All I can say is we are all from different places experiences different dogs backgrounds family's child filled or child less. Either way if you are really comfortable with your decisions or your methods why get so angry and take it to a really personal place when someone disagrees

If you are really comfortable with who you are and what decisions you make look at it as another's opinion even constructive criticism and then either decide to use it or not to use it.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

Dimwit said:


> Yes, because no child has _ever_ been bitten by a labrador...
> 
> I suppose it is up to individual parent whether they want to take the risk, but I just don't understand why anyone would think it's a good idea to let a young child take a dog into another room to play with it or "train" it. No matter how well-behaved the child there is always a risk that they will take the game etc too far, and if the parent is not actually there supervising you would have no idea what the child is doing (or be able to guage whether the dog is getting stressed/unhappy)
> 
> Of course, my opinion is totally worthless as I am not a parent


What I meant by that is it would take more pestering of a Lab to get an aggressive reaction than a terriet for example. Obviously this doesn't account for individual characters.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Your sister may know how to interact with dogs, but if she's 6, she probably doesn't always look where she's going, trips and falls, flails her arms dancing, doesn't always look who's there before she flops on to the sofa...
> IOW, she's probably a normal child who does normal child things that can turn in to tragedies with a dog who's not in the mood to deal with it, and doesn't have any impulse control or bite inhibition.


Pippa 9/10 sleeps in het crate or on her mat so she rarely sleeps on the floor. Pippa doesn't go on the sofa...


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

dandogman said:


> What I meant by that is it would take more pestering of a Lab to get an aggressive reaction than a terriet for example. Obviously this doesn't account for individual characters.


Whoa whoa whoa. You're saying a terrier is more likely to be aggressive towards a child than a lab? What's your basis for that?


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

dandogman said:


> What I meant by that is it would take more pestering of a Lab to get an aggressive reaction than a terriet for example. Obviously this doesn't account for individual characters.


if OP has been cruising google the last breed she would have ever brought home would have been a labrador.
at the end of the day a dog is a dog you pester it hard enough your likely to get the same reaction regardless of breed.


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## Bonsai (Jun 9, 2012)

I seriously don't believe in the whole some breeds are more prone to aggressiveness then others, I completely believe its down to ownership training and good POSITIVE socialisation experiences

Maybe certain types o owners are more likely to own a certain type of breed and that's why more of them end up that way. Hate breed bashing I think all types of dogs can be lovely

Just my opinion probably a million studies that tell me I'm wrong but I find it so hard to believe its ever the fault of the dog/ breed/ genetics


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Bonsai said:


> I seriously don't believe in the whole some breeds are more prone to aggressiveness then others, I completely believe its down to ownership training and good POSITIVE socialisation experiences
> 
> Maybe certain types o owners are more likely to own a certain type of breed and that's why more of them end up that way. Hate breed bashing I think all types of dogs can be lovely
> 
> Just my opinion probably a million studies that tell me I'm wrong but I find it so hard to believe its ever the fault of the dog/ breed/ genetics


I would agree with you and I don't suppose I am alone. There are lots of silly myths about different breeds, like bull breeds have locking jaws and all sorts of crap like that, but all dogs do have different breed traits and it is essential to understand them and work with them.

Owners who do not do this end up with a problem dog and then blame the breed.


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## porchpotty (Aug 3, 2011)

I do but I don't leave my kids with my Lab unsupervised. I am extra cautious as accidents can happen anytime.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

dandogman said:


> What I meant by that is it would take more pestering of a Lab to get an aggressive reaction than a terriet for example. Obviously this doesn't account for individual characters.


Eh, six to one, half dozen to another...
Labs tend to be mellower than terriers, but terriers tend to be more pain tolerant. So a lab may be more likely to react to getting a foot stepped on than a terrier, but a terrier might be more likely to react to pestering than a lab. Either way, you can't assume that just because your dog is X breed he won't bite. ALL dogs will bite. I'll say it again, anyone who thinks their dog would *never* bite is deluding themselves.



dandogman said:


> Pippa 9/10 sleeps in het crate or on her mat so she rarely sleeps on the floor. Pippa doesn't go on the sofa...


Sigh... You're totally missing the point. Accidents happen.
Paws get stepped on, tails get closed in car doors, kids trip and fall, $h1t happens. Put enough of the right (wrong) circumstances together and you end up with a bite incident. That's why from day one, you work on bite inhibition and self control so that when (not if) that bite happens, it does the least amount of damage.


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## dandogman (Dec 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Eh, six to one, half dozen to another...
> Labs tend to be mellower than terriers, but terriers tend to be more pain tolerant. So a lab may be more likely to react to getting a foot stepped on than a terrier, but a terrier might be more likely to react to pestering than a lab. Either way, you can't assume that just because your dog is X breed he won't bite. ALL dogs will bite. I'll say it again, anyone who thinks their dog would *never* bite is deluding themselves.
> 
> Sigh... You're totally missing the point. Accidents happen.
> Paws get stepped on, tails get closed in car doors, kids trip and fall, $h1t happens. Put enough of the right (wrong) circumstances together and you end up with a bite incident. That's why from day one, you work on bite inhibition and self control so that when (not if) that bite happens, it does the least amount of damage.


I can't think of an everyday incident that Pippa would act aggressively too. So you will probably say I am deluded.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2013)

dandogman said:


> I can't think of an everyday incident that Pippa would act aggressively too. So you will probably say I am deluded.


That's the ACCIDENT part of my posts. Accidents happen. They're not called onpurposes 

In my own experience:
Visiting child does a cartwheel, loses her balance, and lands on top of a dog eating his dinner. Accident.

Toddler falls down the stairs lands on top of the old, rickety, grumpy, arthritic dog. Accident.

I wake up in the middle of the night disoriented and stumble over great dane asleep in her dog bed. I fall on the great dane landing with my face in the great dane's muzzle. Accident.

Visitor in high heels steps on a sleeping dog's tail. Accident.

OH slips on icy steps and falls in to the two dogs waiting for him at the bottom of the steps. Accident.

Two children reenacting the Pirates of the Caribbean sword fights with foam swords smack a dog passing by with one of the swords. Accident.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

In every last one of the accidents above, none of the dogs caused any injury.
The dog smacked with a sword barely noticed. The dogs fallen on by OH thought he was playing a new game. The dog stepped on with heels yelped, air snapped, and retreated to another room. The dane I fell on got up, shook (stress reliever), and went back to sleep on the same bed. The old dog fallen on at the foot of the stairs roared in the toddler's face but never made tooth contact. The dog who was eating and fallen on grunted, got out from under the kid, licked the kid, and went back to his meal.

These dogs didn't bite not because of breed, not because of anyone making sure they were "used to" being trod on or fallen on. How do you get a dog "used to" having his tail crushed by a high heel anyway? You don't.

No, the reason there was no damage was because a) the dogs all had excellent bite inhibition that we continued to practice in to adulthood, and b) because the dogs viewed these accidents as the anomalies they are and not something to react negatively to.

It's the bank account analogy all over again. Dogs who generally trust humans and have a long established "bank account" of positive interactions with them, don't tend to react negatively to painful or scary accidents. They find them surprising and odd, but not something to defend against. Keep the trust bank account full and a withdrawal - even a large one, won't put you in the red.


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## Julesky (Feb 10, 2012)

I think i posted this one before adages ago- lady i used to work for went to carry her aged golden retriever up the stairs to her bed as she did every night. This night though she missed the step and fell, with the dog in her arms... only couple of steps and she still managed to hold onto the dog- however the motion, the way the dog twisted in her arms and the surprise (the vet said) cause her dog of 14 to panic and repeatedly bite her arm.

Maybe a mix of pain, confusion and the degradation of senses/mind function that comes with senescence.

She needed LOADS of stitches, immediately afterwards the dog was confused and submissive/waggy/licky.

She never once ever blamed the dog for what had happened- for the very reasons. However in the coming days it was very clear that her girl was fading, in pain and confused. So she made the decision to euthanise her.

Accidents do happen. Dogs of all ages can be stoic to pain up to a point- let's not go down the hip pain route- but something to consider with labs and kids.


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## Beth17 (Jun 5, 2012)

dandogman said:


> I can't think of an everyday incident that Pippa would act aggressively too. So you will probably say I am deluded.


I can't with Sam or Oscar yet I still believe they are quite capable of reacting aggressively. It's unlikely and I doubt it would happen after a one off incident as they have good bite inhibition and control; the potential is still there though.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Beth17 said:


> I can't with Sam or Oscar yet I still believe they are quite capable of reacting aggressively. It's unlikely and I doubt it would happen after a one off incident as they have good bite inhibition and control; the potential is still there though.


Of course it is. Ferdie will growl at anyone who gets too close while he has a bone. That is the only time I have ever known him to act aggressively, but if he can do it then he might find something else to upset him. Diva will fly at Ferdie if he treads on her, again never known to be aggressive in any way to a human. But we know it is there.

They are dogs, that is what needs to be remembered.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

Lexiedhb said:


> I would not trust ANY dog unsupervised around children. Its not the dogs i dont trust but the kids.
> 
> Dutch friend of mine had a friend who had a Lab- it BADLY bit a childs arm, a child it had grown up with, and loved. It was taken to the vets to be PTS. The vet found not one but 10 staples in its ear- I guess number ten was just too much for the poor dog, having not reacted to the previous 9. Dog was not PTS, child (should have been!!!) was never allowed unsupervised access to dog again.
> 
> No matter how well you know/trust your dog/child they can do unexpected things.


I heard same story about a GSD who killed his wner after 12 staples...


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I think far too much of my dogs to ever leave them alone with a child. I wouldn't trust the little beasts farther than I could throw them, wouldn't trust them with any animal.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Beth17 said:


> I can't with Sam or Oscar yet I still believe they are quite capable of reacting aggressively. It's unlikely and I doubt it would happen after a one off incident as they have good bite inhibition and control; the potential is still there though.


Exactly, the potential is there with ANY dog and anyone who thinks it isn't is just deluding themselves. I don't care what breed of dog it is or how well socialised it is it can still be pushed too far and bite.

I remember reading about a St Bernard who badly bit a child. The owners had the dog put to sleep but had a post mortem done on it because it was so out of character. They found a crayon jammed way down in the dogs ear.


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## hushtalk (Sep 28, 2011)

problem when you hear these stories in newspapers they never tell the back story. I lived near a killer st bernard who killed the homes child.

That was all over the news.. they never mentioned though that the dog ws a hairy trampoline for the children


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

hushtalk said:


> problem when you hear these stories in newspapers they never tell the back story. I lived near a killer st bernard who killed the homes child.
> 
> That was all over the news.. they never mentioned though that the dog ws a hairy trampoline for the children


I know. And awful as it sounds, when I read about yet another child bitten by a dog I do find myself wondering just what really happened.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Exactly, the potential is there with ANY dog and anyone who thinks it isn't is just deluding themselves. I don't care what breed of dog it is or how well socialised it is it can still be pushed too far and bite.
> 
> I remember reading about a St Bernard who badly bit a child. The owners had the dog put to sleep but had a post mortem done on it because it was so out of character. They found a crayon jammed way down in the dogs ear.


I read that as well. No way would I have my dog pts for biting a child, I would want to know what the brat had done. Newfie rescue had a lovely dog who had been given in for biting a child, but the kid had jumped on him while he was asleep.

My grandson still has a scar on his face from 20 years ago when he was a toddler and jumped on my retriever while he was asleep. Never occurred to me to blame the dog.


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## Bonsai (Jun 9, 2012)

Brats are made that way not born that way....food for thought for parents

But what would I know I'm not a mum all I do know is that when I have children they will be taught from an early age what is appropriate and what isn't and supervised at all times to protect them and the dog. I don't value human life over my dogs and they will be equal in my eyes. 

He is of course my fur baby :0)


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Bonsai said:


> Brats are made that way not born that way....food for thought for parents
> 
> But what would I know I'm not a mum all I do know is that when I have children they will be taught from an early age what is appropriate and what isn't and supervised at all times to protect them and the dog. I don't value human life over my dogs and they will be equal in my eyes.
> 
> He is of course my fur baby :0)


Well I am a mum three times over and a grandmother, and I agree with your point of view. My children were taught to respect the animals.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

IMO we would all like to think our dogs and children are extremely well trained and totally trustworthy 

I have a child and a dog and I would say that I have brought my child up to behave correctly and my dog is extremely friendly and tolerant. BUT if I made the statement that both are 100% trustworthy, I would be naive.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Bonsai said:


> Brats are made that way not born that way....food for thought for parents
> 
> But what would I know I'm not a mum all I do know is that when I have children they will be taught from an early age what is appropriate and what isn't and supervised at all times to protect them and the dog. I don't value human life over my dogs and they will be equal in my eyes.
> 
> He is of course my fur baby :0)


And yet my youngest brother was brought up no differently to me and my other brother but was horrible as a child. Typical bratty kid and I know my mum was at her wits end with him coz no matter what she did it made no difference to his behaviour. Me and my other brother wouldn't have dreamed of behaving like he did but no amount of consequences for bad behaviour or rewarding good behaviour had any effect on him at all. Wasn't just my parents either, he behaved the same way for anyone who looked after him, including at school.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> And yet my youngest brother was brought up no differently to me and my other brother but was horrible as a child. Typical bratty kid and I know my mum was at her wits end with him coz no matter what she did it made no difference to his behaviour. Me and my other brother wouldn't have dreamed of behaving like he did but no amount of consequences for bad behaviour or rewarding good behaviour had any effect on him at all. Wasn't just my parents either, he behaved the same way for anyone who looked after him, including at school.


Possible high functioning autism or asbergers? or ADHD? Went undiagnosed a lot until fairly recently


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