# My new 8 week puppy has a leg problem - could be serious! help



## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

hi my o/h bought a puppy last wednesday eve, 2 days after we had it its front leg started to bend abnormally, i will try and describe as best i can: its paw turns to the side and its wrist bends forward which then makes its knee bend outwards!! its so hard to explain but anyway it has become worse, i took him to the vets monday, they were worried it was broken, so they xrayed - it wasnt broken, they asked what food he was on, he has always had iams dry puppy food with top life puppy milk. they said his growth plates looked abnormal and that he had a curviture in both front legs. He is sending the xrays off to a specialist and we will find out tuesday.

Anyway a day after coming back from the vets his other leg is doing the same. when he eats from his bowl, both legs splay out to the side. He falls over alot and lays down alot as they seem to be under a very un-natural strain.

Spoke to the breeder, he says hes never heard of it and that he has had several litters - all puppies are fine. I just wondered if anyone had heard of this before, as im worried we may have to have him put to sleep as, he cant be carried around if it gets worse.

He reminds me of a new baby giraffe after birth when it trys to find its feet!

poor puppy - oh he is a dogue de bordueax x with neapolitan mastiff


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2010)

That just sounds awful.
I've no advice but hope that someone will be able to help you


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

ive just been researching more on the internet and it could be Elbow dysplasia, which can be painful and means he will never return to normal. I really feel for him as it really looks bad. he is just so young!


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## Mum2Alfie (Jan 4, 2010)

Awwww poor thing!! I have no idea I am sorry! Hope its not bad news!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

You must be feeling awful - I can hardly imagine what you are going through.
Getting a new puppy is suposed to be a joyful time.
I hope you get some positive answers from the vets.
Maybe someone on here will be able to give some advice in the mean time.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

i agree it should be a fun time, but all it has been is worry, going to the vets and watching him get worse, so far (i know im insured) but its cost £150 and we havnt even found out whats wrong yet! not that money is a problem, more the health of this little one, i cant wait for tuesday to see what the specialist says!


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

Fingers crossed for Tuesday.
He's going to be a big boy so any problems with his legs are going to be difficult to manage - I feel for you I really do.
Just wish I could offer some practical help - but I've got little 'uns.


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## jesshan (Jan 16, 2010)

Oh dear, that is terrible! I hope all is OK - crossing my fingers for you


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2010)

Has the breeder offered you any back up, or offered to have the pup back?


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

sammykins said:


> ive just been researching more on the internet and it could be Elbow dysplasia, which can be painful and means he will never return to normal. I really feel for him as it really looks bad. he is just so young!


My nine year old Doberman cross has had elbow dysplasia accompanied by osteo-chondrosis dissicens in both elbows since he was seven months old. No operation done at my decision (though was recommended at the time by the rather keen young vet) and since about 9 months old has had no lameness or problems. I do keep him on Liquid Devils Claw, 5 mils once a day though whether or not that has anything to do with it and he has exercised normally, yet the xrays spelled doom and gloom! All is not necessarily lost with sensible management!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

oh that really good to hear something positive. I have read that it normally shows between 6 and 12 months, but wondering if it is that as he is only 2 months old. But i suppose it could happen at any time.

I have seen dogs with this problem taking swimming classes etc to help ease the pain and keep thier legs working properly, i really didnt want to have all this worry with a new pet! i was expecting all this in his "old age" years not now.

i reckon it is elbow dysplasia 

what i want to know is why dont the vet know about it??? hmmmmm it looks quite a well known problem!


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

dont know if this has been mentioned but I would send it back to the breeder and ask for a refund, it sounds like displacia which will cost thousands to put right not to mention seeing the dog in an ill state of health for at very least a good year until it can be operated on. Whoever bred this pup should realise their mistakes and they may put more into their next litter .


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

this is something we are thinking of, after having spoken to the breeder, he said when we find out results on tuesday we will discuss it further. He did mention though how he had already sold the remaining 7 pups (within 5 days of us buying ours!) then i noticed he still has an advert live with 2 left for sale. I think he was putting me off from asking for an exchange. He also phoned me 10 mins after i phoned him, he said that he had called all the other new owners to see if they had any problems, he said they were all happy etc, and no problems. He must of had the quickest conversation in the world to speak to that many people in such little time! 

But i should be within my rights for giving him back for a refund wouldnt i? 

im really trying not to get attached to this dog at the moment as im worried.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Poor pup, sounds awful. I have not heard of ED ever showing as early as that, also only ever heard of it showing as a limp and not as you described it. The joints is affected as the bones are growing, at two weeks I wouldn't think he has done enough growth to show as badly as that.
Hopefully the specialist will shed some light, my staffy cross has ED (FCP) and he indeed started with an occasional limp around 6 months and was fully diagnosed at 9.

Caroline I also chose not to do the arthroscopy for various reasons, but I doubt we are managing as well as you


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Does he look like this
View attachment 39303


View attachment 39304


View attachment 39305


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

dodigna said:


> Caroline I also chose not to do the arthroscopy for various reasons, but I doubt we are managing as well as you


I think that my dog has just been very lucky. I am sorry if your dog is not doing as well, I truly am. 

It was not the cost of the op that bothered us, it was the prognosis. I asked "Is this guaranteed to solve the problem?" The answer came back as "50% but he could also be left with permanent lameness too" which was just not good enough for me so I decided to use LDC on him and lots of lead walking on firm ground as well as careful free running to tighten his elbows up. The vet could not believe the improvement when I took him back a year later for another reason! But like I said, I think we were lucky.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

thanks for the pics, it does look similar, but the paws on my one turn in too, and when he runs his paws wobble side to side. what does your dog have wrong with him? im trying to upload some footage of him


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

It's not my dog. That was down to poor diet and was corrected in about six months feeding eagle pack


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

i think the dog you showed has rickets, my dog is alot more wobbly, he has always been on iams puppy food and puppy milk, so the diet shouldnt play any part in this unless he has something that prevents him absorbing all the goodness from the food,


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

hawksport said:


> ...poor diet and was corrected in about six months feeding eagle pack


hey, *sport! :--) 
WoW!, that poor baby! :nonod: are there any AFTER pix? 
it is amazing that he recovered / normalized in approx 6-mos, but nutrition makes *such!* a difference. of course, even lousy-pet-food today is a hundred-times better than early-pet-foods, which had an incredible amount of slaughter-waste + bones especially. :blech: 
and GOOD pet-food today is simply amazing. :thumbsup:

i hope that Dobie has / had a wonderful, long, happy life! 
all my best, 
--- terry


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## CarolineH (Aug 4, 2009)

That's not elbow dysplasia. I don't know exactly what it is but it is not that. 

Please do let us know when you find out what it actually is and I do hope that it can be solved because she is a gorgeous looking, cuddly puppy!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

o good, i hope its not, its just i cant find anything else on the internet and i thought it matched ED quite well, after reading a few sites.

Well it is a mystery, he literally cannot walk for hardly anytime at all.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

I've not got any pjctures after the full recovery but in these you can see a big improvement and you can see how quickly he improved by the small increase in size of the puppy.
View attachment 39306


View attachment 39307


View attachment 39308


This is another food related one but I have no details of the time scale of before and after
[/ATTACH]
sorry wrong way around


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

that is truly amazing, *sport! 
i would never have expected such rapid + vivid improvement - its interesting that the remaining defect in the Dobe-pup is most evident when lying-down, vs standing or sitting, where it can be seen but is not staringly obvious - U have to look. 

whats the breed or mix of the piebald pup? appears to be a bicolor Poodle, but its hard to tell with a small dog photographed both face-forward and from above. cute, tho!  
the ability of a skeleton to change is remarkable. 
thanks for the After-pics, the owners of both dogs must have been ecstatic :thumbup: 
good night, 
--- terry


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## jesshan (Jan 16, 2010)

you most probably are within you rights to take it back and ask for a refund or exchange. I think I would ask for a refund rather than an exchange. Such a tough descision.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2010)

You have rights under the sale of goods act

Puppy farms, puppy dealers and pet shops - The Kennel Club


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## Nellybelly (Jul 20, 2009)

those photos are really upsetting. Don't know what to say, so sory!


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## lifeizsweet (Jun 7, 2009)

I've just come across this thread and how sad! I really hope there is something that can be done to help him, I can't imagine the thought of maybe having to give up a puppy!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

its strange how i cant find anything on this type of condition, i just really want to know what it is, i cant wait til tuesday (im so impatient lol)


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

hi, so sorry to hear you ordeal.

i have to say i do not have proper hands on experience however i feel to say that at that early age the pup can develop very unevenly and sometimes the tendons suffer greatly, for example by not stretching properly. it is not elbow displacia (imo and from what i can understand from the pic, without touching etc.).

i suppose/hope that the results from x/rays will put your mind at rest. i know of a corrective intervention (no arthroscopy or similar) just a reduction with a plaster for a week/10 days), not very expensive but very effective, if indeed the condition is what i think it is...and the results are permanent with no long terms damages (once the tendons have been put straight) and the dog fed correctly and supplemented with of vitamin D and sunshine!

the breeder should be offering to bear part of the costs (though i don;t think it is genetics and haven;t found any evidence in the literature that it is either) it certainly should have been spotted earlier (i.e. if the degrees of extension weren't properly aligned during very early development of the pup, i think there is a very good study about that in a vet journal - with pics - from the 70s/80s i cannot remember now, but it is worth a search) ....but you know, growth spurts are very strange and unpredictable!

good luck and please keep us posted on the progress of the little pup.

best
regrads
d


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## Rebs (Feb 6, 2010)

Poor little guy :C I'm sorry to hear about this. 

If the "breeder" in question refuses the dog back (if you do decide to return him) I'd report him to the RSPCA. He's clearly breeding ill bred dogs that are going to be in pain for the majority of their life. Ask for the phone numbers or emails of the other people just to check for yourself? Breeding two big breed dogs like this needs careful planning and background checks into the family history. They are both mastiff breeds so once your guy gets older he's going to get heavier and more painful for him :/

As you said the &#8220;breeder&#8221; stated everyone else is fine and happy with their dogs. Honestly I wouldn&#8217;t take his word for it. As you said in your last post it must have been a quick conversation between all those people, so maybe he&#8217;s trying to cover his back? This person really doesn&#8217;t sound trustworthy at all and he should be punished for as some people would put it &#8220;back yard breeding&#8221; 

He&#8217;s obviously not thought of the pups or the stud and dams welfare when breeding them. And he has now produced badly bred pups. I hope your little guys gets better soon though! Good luck with the results.


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## xxwelshcrazyxx (Jul 3, 2009)

sammykins said:


> hi my o/h bought a puppy last wednesday eve, 2 days after we had it its front leg started to bend abnormally, i will try and describe as best i can: its paw turns to the side and its wrist bends forward which then makes its knee bend outwards!! its so hard to explain but anyway it has become worse, i took him to the vets monday, they were worried it was broken, so they xrayed - it wasnt broken, they asked what food he was on, he has always had iams dry puppy food with top life puppy milk. they said his growth plates looked abnormal and that he had a curviture in both front legs. He is sending the xrays off to a specialist and we will find out tuesday.
> 
> Anyway a day after coming back from the vets his other leg is doing the same. when he eats from his bowl, both legs splay out to the side. He falls over alot and lays down alot as they seem to be under a very un-natural strain.
> 
> ...


That looks really bad and to of come on sooooooo quickly, there must of been something wrong way back in one of ancestors legs and he had to be the one to of had the same thing. Have you got a raised feeding unit, (two feeding bowls on a stand), so he dont have to lean forward to eat or drink. What a shame for a little one to have this. It looks so painfull or uncomfortable for him. I hope the vets can sort it out, he may even have to have pins in his legsat some point ??????????


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

" if indeed the condition is what i think it is...and the results are permanent with no long terms damages (once the tendons have been put straight) and the dog fed correctly and supplemented with of vitamin D and sunshine!"

so what do you think it is?, i cant be anything to do with food as he has been fed on a good dog food, i have since bought royal canin for puppys, which he is having with his puppy milk. 

Although i agree it does look like he needs some type of plaster or bandage to keep them straight.

I dont have raised feeding bowls, but then he is so weak on his legs he cant stand straight for any length of time, i will have a look though and see what they have - thanks for that idea.

It is very strange that it wasnt noticed before we bought him and i didnt notice anything when we got him, so it must be something that has been dorment and is just starting to show now. I just cant believe how in such little space of time they have both got that bad.

It is a worry as he will be a big dog, and i agree the breeder should get his dogs checked out before carrying on breeding dependng on the results

Roll on tuesday!!


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## Bearpaw (Dec 10, 2009)

Just caught up with your post,Gosh, your poor pup,and poor you! What a worry.I cant offer anymore advise than whats already been said,but do agree that the breeder must take some responsibilty here,whatever you decide to do,when you get the results on tuesday.I would also be very wary of having another pup from the same litter if you choose that route.
I wish you all the best on tuesday and so hope you get some positive advise and help.x


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sammykins said:


> so what do you think it is?, i cant be anything to do with food as he has been fed on a good dog food, i have since bought royal canin for puppys, which he is having with his puppy milk.
> 
> !


the tendons not stretching properly while the bones are growing fast (don;t remember the proper medical denomination)

going in order of your reporting:

i think that raised bowls won;t be of much use while small and more frequent meals might help in taking the toll off his front paws. and also, just proper feeding has little to do with expensive, high street commercial brands of puppy food. the approach should be holistic as food is only one aspect (necessary but not sufficient) for raising the litter or just a pup to give them the best possible chance of a long and healthy life. the pup needs also the right conditions like (especially for large mastiffs), loads of sleep and rest - up to 23 hours a day -to promote a slow growth etc... up till they are over 18months old; limited exercise - 15/20 minutes top every couple of days - to facilitate the proper growing of the plates that continues to up, once again, 18 months; kept on non slip flooring; exposure to sunshine or the use of vitamin D fortified food if there isn't any sunshine to fix the calcium of the bones, once again for the same period and for the same reasons given above...these are *must do and extremely important* things for these large dogs...to prevent problems linked to their shear weight... later on in life...but in your case obviously something has gone wrong in the early days (or even before birth...) so it is worth investigating further.

it is very difficult to notice, experienced breeders (especially of such large dogs....) might develop a good eyes (and indeed they should otherwise it becomes too risky to breed)... for these sort of "anomalies" usually gentle manipulation of the pups and observation of the position of the paws is a tell tale that something is not completely right (obviously matching stud and brood-bitch plays a great part into it....but sometimes these sort of things cannot be predicted even applying the best of knowledge and the latest of science). after over 20 years of "pause" from breeding dobies (had the stud though),a nd collaborating with a couple of friends to breeding their mastini, i started again recently to breed and my big mama is (with some degree of certainty) a neoXddb and it took a big toll on me, just doing right for my canines meant to go back to all I knew, my knowledge of the mastiffs (that fortunately goes back since childhood) and updates with vets, geneticists and other professionals...an obviously much observation and study...

so it's not that straight forward...and lady luck plays a big role, for all these reasons i mentioned, the breeder might (or should) be interested in helping you (also financially, if necessary) in sorting out your pup as, if he/she is a responsible breeder, has much interest in understanding what went wrong in order to prevent this to happen again, by sorting out their breeding stock (if it is genetics), learn how to spot/eventually prevent anomalies (if it is environmental) and in the general way of things because they care for their pups and dogs.

best of luck
d


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## Inkdog (Dec 5, 2009)

Dear me, how absolutely heartbreaking.

I agree with the others that the breeder must take some responsibility, if you decide to go back to him. But more importantly I hope that you get some positive news on Tuesday.

Best wishes, I hope all goes well.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

i know that both the mum and dad of the dog belong to the breeder as pets and he has only bred these two together, i think but not too sure it was 6 litters they have had.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Poor poor baby and poor you. You have a terrible dilemma here, after all I'm sure you love your puppy and want what is best for him. Unfortunately I think the breeder is responsible for your puppy's condition. He is a cross breed and probably from a back yard breeder (or similar) and both breeds involved would be ones requiring all sorts of screening because of possible inherent conditions before being bred from, and the resulting pups are the victims of the greed and ignorance of these types of breeders. Plus this type of breeder is not going to want to accept any sort of responsibility for this puppy's future care, I don't expect you will see him for dust.
I don't know what the problem is, except I think it is going to involve a lot of money, misery and heartache. I do hope I am wrong, I'm also wondering if any insurance company will want to take your puppy on? My very best wishes for you and that sweet baby.:crying:


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

to the people that passed uninformed and speedy judgements on the breeder i would like to remind you all that not knowing all the facts this is, to say the least premature, if not labelling ...

i would wait to have more info before insulting people you don;t know and have no idea what their feelings and their actions are on the matter at hands, if indeed that degree of insult is necessary at all.

probably is just prejudice against cross breed breeders...i don't know (seen the equation: cross breed breeder = BYB or worst on here soooo many times it's sickening)!


best
D


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree on the tendon theory, it looks like its something to do with his tendons being tight / not growing fast enough.

I saw a lion cub on tv with very very very similar probs and looks and he had a small op on his tendons, then his legs in splints.... ended really well.

Fingers crossed for you and pup 

as for the breeder, tutut, sounds like his just producing pups for money and as mentioned, even if you managed to get a refund, I doubt he will be spending money on vet treatment for the pup


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sailor said:


> I agree on the tendon theory, it looks like its something to do with his tendons being tight / not growing fast enough.
> 
> I saw a lion cub on tv with very very very similar probs and looks and he had a small op on his tendons, then his legs in splints.... ended really well.


where? have you got a link to the programme?



sailor said:


> as for the breeder, tutut, sounds like his just producing pups for money and as mentioned, even if you managed to get a refund, I doubt he will be spending money on vet treatment for the pup


please refer to my previous post

best


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think you would be sensible to return the puppy. You just have heartbreak if you keep it. A good breeder would already have offered to take the pup back.
I would be very dubious that your insurance would pay up either. Did the pup come with 6 weeks insurance or did you take it out - if you took it out then it will quite rightly be said that in that very short time the pup must have already had the problem, plus most insurances exclude any conditions that appear within 10 days. If you had a six week insurance then when you come to renew it the condition will be excluded so either way you are stuffed financially as well as emotionally. I think you have every right to insist on a full refund and the other pups being ok has no bearing on it whatsoever. Your pup is not ok!


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

Blitz said:


> I think you would be sensible to return the puppy. You just have heartbreak if you keep it. A good breeder would already have offered to take the pup back.
> I would be very dubious that your insurance would pay up either. Did the pup come with 6 weeks insurance or did you take it out - if you took it out then it will quite rightly be said that in that very short time the pup must have already had the problem, plus most insurances exclude any conditions that appear within 10 days. If you had a six week insurance then when you come to renew it the condition will be excluded so either way you are stuffed financially as well as emotionally. I think you have every right to insist on a full refund and the other pups being ok has no bearing on it whatsoever. Your pup is not ok!


right. how is it possible to pass such a harsh judgement given that at this stage diagnosis and prognosis are not known? as still not known are the causes of the condition (congenital/genetics or environmental)? and if they "were foreseeable by the expert eyes without consulting a specialist vet" (as this is what the law stated...though i do not agree with it)...and if the cooling off period of 28 days (probably still on given the young age of the pup and the pictures provided) etc etc...

i don't know by reading the thread! do you?


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

dimkaz said:


> where? have you got a link to the programme?
> 
> please refer to my previous post
> 
> best


I was watching it on TV some time ago, eithe zoo days or park life I think.
I will search online, see if I can find it.

sorry if I repeated something you said, I wasnt aware that wasnt allowed ?


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

he came with 4 weeks pet plan insurance, and i think it may be covered i suppose depending on what the results are, but if it is a genetic problem and as i didnt know about it when i got him then it should be covered. I do wonder what would happen to the pup if i gave it back, and now at least i know he is in the best hands and that i can look after him and take him to vets etc. 

But although i didnt actually get the puppy my o/h did he said they seemed like decent people, but you could tell they breed for a living as they also bred Maine coons too. If it was me i probably wouldnt have bought the pup or would of gone back for a second visit.

But i didnt really want to get a "dog with problems" and i would really consider having him pts if he would have a lifetime of pain and discomfort and of course vet bills - i have 3 kids to care for too. Lets hope it is just a tendon problem, and it clears up soon.

thanks for all your replys i really appreciate them x


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sailor said:


> I was watching it on TV some time ago, eithe zoo days or park life I think.
> I will search online, see if I can find it.
> 
> sorry if I repeated something you said, I wasnt aware that wasnt allowed ?



thanks!!!

i don;t have a tv set, so sometimes i catch up on some programmes on the web! i will look for them!
i don;t undestrand what is it that's not allowed?
thanks a lot
best
d


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

dimkaz said:


> right. how is it possible to pass such a harsh judgement given that at this stage diagnosis and prognosis are not known? as still not known are the causes of the condition (congenital/genetics or environmental)? and if they "were foreseeable by the expert eyes without consulting a specialist vet" (as this is what the law stated...though i do not agree with it)...and if the cooling off period of 28 days (probably still on given the young age of the pup and the pictures provided) etc etc...
> 
> i don't know by reading the thread! do you?


It isnt a harsh judgement, it is a sensible one. No one looking at photos of that pup could say it was something that just happened overnight or that it will cure itself overnight. It is going to be a long and expensive business whatever the diagnosis and prognosis and considering the OP has only had the pup for a few days it would be heart ruling head not to go back to the breeder and insist on a refund. A GOOD breeder would have been horrified on being told of the pups condition and would have offered immediately to take it back. And yes, they would have phoned all the other puppy owners to check that they were ok, but out of consideration for them not as a reason that it wasnt their fault that this pup is in such dire straits.

We are all allowed to give our opinions on this, if yours is different then state it, but dont diss everyone elses.


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## sailor (Feb 5, 2010)

Just searched online, it is zoo days (channel 5 programme) the lion was called tejas, his legs were corrected by using splints, but not an op...
My memory isnt what it used to be 

Couldnt find a website where I could watch this episode tho, but will keep looking and put up a link if I find it


Best of luck with your pup sammykins, I hope it isnt a huge problem and can be treated and fixed relatively quickly


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sailor said:


> Just searched online, it is zoo days (channel 5 programme) the lion was called tejas, his legs were corrected by using splints, but not an op...
> My memory isnt what it used to be
> 
> Couldnt find a website where I could watch this episode tho, but will keep looking and put up a link if I find it
> ...


thank you very much
i am already on the look out the wesite is called five.tv i think..

you're very efficient (and kind) 
thanks again
best
d


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## brackensmom (Jun 15, 2009)

sammykins said:


> i know that both the mum and dad of the dog belong to the breeder as pets and he has only bred these two together, i think but not too sure it was 6 litters they have had.


Hi just caught this thread, i am soo sorry to hear about the problems with your pup, hope you have good new on Tuesday.

So would your pup have been this bitches 6th litter or i am reading this wrong.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

Blitz said:


> It isnt a harsh judgement, it is a sensible one. No one looking at photos of that pup could say it was something that just happened overnight or that it will cure itself overnight. It is going to be a long and expensive business whatever the diagnosis and prognosis and considering the OP has only had the pup for a few days it would be heart ruling head not to go back to the breeder and insist on a refund. A GOOD breeder would have been horrified on being told of the pups condition and would have offered immediately to take it back. And yes, they would have phoned all the other puppy owners to check that they were ok, but out of consideration for them not as a reason that it wasnt their fault that this pup is in such dire straits.
> 
> We are all allowed to give our opinions on this, if yours is different then state it, but dont diss everyone elses.


With this starting to happen after only two days do you think it possible the puppies legs where somehow strapped up at the breeders before it was sold?


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## juliemom (Feb 11, 2010)

oh huney you must be going nuts waiting, i bet you are deverstated the poor little mite, fingers crossed that something can be sorted.
in the mean time just you take care of yourself too

julie


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## Rebs (Feb 6, 2010)

At the end of the day this man has bred two different breeds together without sitting downing and reading what he should have. For a start he breeds pure bred Maine Coons, so why the heck did her produce a mix bred litter? There are already loads of dogs sitting in shelters and being PTS because of things like this :/ 

I think honestly he had two intact dogs and they should have been fixed. Breeding a Neapolitan Mastiff to a Dogue de Bordeaux is foolish on his behalf. They are both big breeds and would no doubt be prone to hip dyspepsia and other leg issues when they get older. So this little guy is going to suffer the brunt of it, as might his litter mates. Its clear he hasnt sat down and looked into his dogs pedigrees if they had one. And if they didnt have one why did he breed them anyways? Because of his foolishness a pup is suffering. I think its fine to pass judgement on this man because its rather obvious he had no idea what he was doing when breeding them. 

Id love to know how many times hes bred these dogs if he breeds dogs and cats for a living. Just think if this isnt the first litter from these two dogs, other puppies might be like Sammykins. If that is how it is that hes bred these dogs and produce pups just like this little guy he isnt improving the gene pool but only making it worse. He should really consider getting both dogs fixed :/ Because for all we know if there any any past litters from this stud and dam well...I dread to imagine.


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

to the OP,
good luck with the little one, whatever you decide.
please let me know how it goes at the specialist etc. I really would like to know as i am very involved with these kind of dogs and love them dearly...

i think i will stop read for now as there seem to be so many unfounded insulting comments....that irritate me quite a lot and don;t want to get involved in virtual brawls!

best of luck
D


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

The thread seems to of gone off on a tangent about the ethics of the breeder which aren't part of the OP's question.

Logically if the specialist gives bad news then I would be asking to return the puppy and getting a refund.
Although my heart would find that difficult.

The pictures look awful - I hope it's something that can be resolved.

Please keep us updated I'll be looking for news on Tuesday.

Best wishes to you and your family I'll keep my fingers crossed for good news.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

Best of luck Sammykins x be brave xx :crying:


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

dimkaz said:


> to the people that passed uninformed and speedy judgements on the breeder i would like to remind you all that not knowing all the facts this is, to say the least premature, if not labelling ...
> 
> i would wait to have more info before insulting people you don;t know and have no idea what their feelings and their actions are on the matter at hands, if indeed that degree of insult is necessary at all.
> 
> ...


I don't wish to get involved in a slanging match here but (speaking for myself) I was merely making the point that any reputable and responsible breeders of *both* these breeds would have done all the screening felt necessary to minimise the inherent problems appearing in their puppies. I felt it was highly unlikely that someone breeding crossbreeds and breeding* six* litters from the poor dam was unlikely to have had the parents screened. 
I may well be wrong and I would unreservedly aplogise if my observations and opinions were totally incorrect. The fact remains there is a poor unfortunate puppy here and someone is going to have to be responsible for what may be prolonged and expensive treatment, or the awful decision to have the poor wee mite PTS. Fingers crossed neither scenario will be forthcoming, and there will be a happy outcome. *That, I am certain, is what every one of us here will be hoping for.*


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## Rebs (Feb 6, 2010)

^ here here

/endsofftopicness


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

sammykins said:


> this is something we are thinking of, after having spoken to the breeder, he said when we find out results on tuesday we will discuss it further. He did mention though how he had already sold the remaining 7 pups (within 5 days of us buying ours!) then i noticed he still has an advert live with 2 left for sale. I think he was putting me off from asking for an exchange. He also phoned me 10 mins after i phoned him, he said that he had called all the other new owners to see if they had any problems, he said they were all happy etc, and no problems. He must of had the quickest conversation in the world to speak to that many people in such little time!
> 
> But i should be within my rights for giving him back for a refund wouldnt i?
> 
> im really trying not to get attached to this dog at the moment as im worried.


your well within your rights. Even it it isnt dysplacic you should be able to return it for a refund - anything could have happened... you could have simply had a change of circumstances?. Dont be overcome by their talk - if your not happy say so and get a refund. You will probably loose the deposit though, but at least it will save you a lot in the future


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Rebs said:


> As you said the breeder stated everyone else is fine and happy with their dogs. Honestly I wouldnt take his word for it.
> ...it must have been a quick conversation betw all those people, so maybe hes trying to cover his back?


i know it may seem a long-shot, but i would put up an AD where U saw that ad, or in other venues where the breeder listed the litter, and *ask to get together with the littermates,* or for PIX + contact from the other buyers.

* the breeder is not feeding U contacts - he is out of the loop
* the other owners Need to Know about this pup + the condition 
* they can reassure U that it really was... or was Not - *just one pup. *

i hope the radiographs + the specialist have a solid Dx and a good prognosis - such a sweet pup, and a HUGE breed-mix for any sort of joint issues. 
i will hope for good news on Tuesday! :thumbsup:

best wishes for the pup, and a long happy pain-free life, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammykins said:


> it cant be anything to do with food as he has been fed on a good dog food, i have since bought royal canin for puppys, which he is having with his puppy milk.


hey, sammy! :--) 
actually TOO-MUCH protein is just as bad as too little, as is too much calcium, too-little calcium, too little zinc or too much, etc. 
if this were my pup, i would * tell the Vet! *_he has been eating X amount of This-dog-food And so-much Puppy-Milk for so-many days, then Canin Pup plus Puppy-Milk for so-many days, etc. _ i would even take along a bag of each kibble (or the brand-name, ingredients panel + nutritional analysis) and a can of the pup-milk, too, so that the nutrition panels, brand-names, etc, are *With* U for the vet to read + total.



sammykins said:


> I dont have raised feeding bowls, but then he is so weak on his legs he cant stand straight for any length of time, i will have a look though and see what they have - thanks for that idea.


uh-oh! hmy: raised feeding-bowls add 100% statistically to any one dogs total risk-factors for bloat; such risk factors include breed, size, ribcage-shape, close-relatives who get GDV, gobbling food, bolting dry-food and drinking deeply after, HIGH-swell dog-kibble, and others like exercise close to eating (before or after). 
the total risks are doubled by raised-bowls; my Akita had GDV at only 9-MO and i am sure that it was partially du to MY using a raised-bowl, on advice from a sales-catalog ad. :blush2: _ never buy Only on sales advice...  _ shame on me!

i would avoid raised-bowls, at least for now; he can eat lying-down until the vet gets this sorted, or at least Dx. he only has 3 days until the specialist appt; ask That Vet about raised-bowls, and see what they say. :thumbsup:



sammykins said:


> ...it wasnt noticed before we bought him and i didnt notice anything when we got him, so it must be something that has been dorment and is just starting to show now.


pups especially Large-Breed pups, grow REALLY fast - so 2-weeks is more than enuf to show huge change.

how old was the pup when U got him from the breeder?

all my best, 
--- terry


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammykins said:


> i know that both *the mum and dad of the dog belong to the breeder* as pets...
> he has* only bred these two *together,* i think... 6 litters *they have had.


let me make sure of this, sammy - 
am i correct in reading this, that this breeder has gotten 6 litters from the same pair of dogs? 
how *old* is the bitch?

if he has bred the Same-F 6 times to the same stud, this man is no more nor less than a serial-puppy-mill... 
not a multi-bitch, multi-stud industrial-scale producer, but a series of litters produced as pocket-cash. :nonod:

ethical breeders may breed a Single-Bitch TWICE in her entire life - and repeat the first-breeding only if the results are exceptional. 
it is rare that a quality breeder would breed any one F 3-times. 
she would have to be extraordinary + the 3rd stud(s) a genuine undeniable opportunity. i say STUDS as some breeders with exceptional Fs use multiple studs with a single-litter to maximize their chances of a truly wonderful pup, DNA-profile dam + stud + ALL pups to track who sired whom, and may use this as a test --- 
they may repeat the breeding with *one* of the multiple-studs...
the ONE that created the best possible pups.

with great foreboding, this so-called breeder sounds like a $$-maker  
--- terry


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I hope you get good news and a easy fix Sammy....Hugs Jill


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## Lucysmom (Feb 13, 2009)

Hope its good news at the specialists on tuesday I have never seen a dog with legs in that condition so wouldnt have a clue on a diagnosis or cause.
just sending healing hugs to the pup and hope to the owner

good luck both

Rachel and the gang!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

In response to your questions terry, Ive only had the dog for ten days now and he was nearly seven weeks old when I got him, it was 2 days after we got him that he started to show signs of a problem. The vet knows what food he is eating and He is happy with all that. I'm sure the breeder said he had 6 litters but I could be wrong. I will find out. I know they had 9 pups and 1 died at birth. Not sure age of mum but my oh said she didn't look old. Still within a space of a week both front legs look so bad- I just can't believe it. These are the longest days of my life


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

I wouldnt hesitate, I would be at their door dog in hand saying this is unacceptable look at the pain your causing. There is no reason for them to even begin argument with you never mind engage you in conversation - you bought a dog to enhance your lives and enjoy - you havent got one. Its so sad and you must be in a horrible situation, but the longer you leave it the more they can say - youve done something wrong.

If someone has any knowledge of trading standards this may help, otherwise small claims court will certainly put a stop to the issue if they put up a fuss (which is unlikely), wishing you the best.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammykins said:


> ...Ive only had the dog for ten days... nearly 7-WO when I got him, it was *2 days after we got him that he started to show signs of a problem.*The vet knows what food he is eating and... is happy with all that.


 thanks for that - yes, there may have been signs, but they can be subtle, and many of these are multigenic or genes-And-Environs or genes-And-nutrients... 10 days in a Giant-pup can be 5# or more of growth, depending on the age of the pup; so rapid, rapid change, and where change is happening is a function of age + genes / breed / mix. 


> I'm sure the breeder said... 6 litters but I could be wrong... I know (the litter was) 9 pups and 1 died at birth. Not sure age of mum... OH said she didn't look old. Still *within... a week both front legs look so bad-* I just can't believe it. *These are the longest days of my life*


 i cannot imagine, i would be very distressed, my heart goes out to U and the pup. i will be thinking of U all, and my dearest hope is that good news is in the offing, its only a developmental quirk, gets better just as fast as it appeared, and he will be *fine.*

U may want to POST pix of the pup on the breeders sales venues, asking for info from the siblings - *just in case* there may be Prior Litters with trouble, and that might flush out the buyers. a class-action to recover co$ts, and STOP future breedings of this sire + dam, might be worth pursuing if there *are* other affected pups. (i hope not...) 
blessings, 
--- terry


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sammykins said:


> I'm sure the breeder said he had 6 litters but I could be wrong. I will find out. I know they had 9 pups and 1 died at birth. Not sure age of mum but my oh said she didn't look old.


mhmmm 6 litters: let's do some maths:

- i am basing these calculation on my big mama (NeoXDDB) and of 60kg -

the mama should have been at least 2 to have any chance of a successful mating and the heat are not twice per year but one every 8-9 months because of size and a few months (1 to 3) longer after parturition.

that leaves the bitch at about 8/9 years of age if she has been bred at every cycle
at that age the dog cannot look young by any metric as both breeds are extremely senior; and for a bitch of any of the two breeds to be bred up to 8-9yo would just be impossible as she would not have survived that long, or the breeder would have spend a massive fortune to keep her alive...let alone breed from her, and if at all possible, then i would say: CRIMINAL! as the poor mite would be so emaciated to not have the strength to stand. giant pups take the life out of their mother given the large number of pups per litter and their extraordinary nutritional requirements ( i know as i breed the type of dogs you mentioned and if you get distracted for a minute you'll see that the pups have grown while suckling!!!)

sammykins, i would suggest you verify this with the breeder and if that is so do something with the wspa, rspca or follow DEFRA guidelines for the procedures...of the animal welfare act (you can find them on DEFRA website).

in the mean while i i give you my best whishes for your pup!
best of luck 
D


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

james1 said:


> I wouldnt hesitate, I would be at their door dog in hand saying this is unacceptable look at the pain your causing. There is no reason for them to even begin argument with you never mind engage you in conversation - you bought a dog to enhance your lives and enjoy - you havent got one. Its so sad and you must be in a horrible situation, but the longer you leave it the more they can say - youve done something wrong.
> 
> If someone has any knowledge of trading standards this may help, otherwise small claims court will certainly put a stop to the issue if they put up a fuss (which is unlikely), wishing you the best.


hi James, there is no needs for special knowledge of the sale of goods act (and its amendments). given that the pups has been with the new holder for some 10-11 days. if they wish to return him they only have to bring him back to the breeder and ask for their money back. if there is any problem they should simply hand in a letter from a solicitor (with attached photostatic copies of all receipts) of what they have already spent in direct relation to the condition asking for the refund. if the breeder does not comply the solicitor will take matters further. I think the citizens advise bureau would advise on this and MOST IMPORTANTLY, if there has been any wrong doing from the breeder there will be compensation (so that they will be discouraged to breed in the future). the procedure is pretty straight forward and i would suggest the op to go this way if any other would not bear results.

having said this, the chances that it all blows down to nothing are very high in my opinion (and keep my fingers crossed) so that is up to the op to decide on what to do!


loads of luck to sammykins
D


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## dinks (Apr 10, 2009)

sammykins said:


> he came with 4 weeks pet plan insurance, and i think it may be covered i suppose depending on what the results are, but if it is a genetic problem and as i didnt know about it when i got him then it should be covered. I do wonder what would happen to the pup if i gave it back, and now at least i know he is in the best hands and that i can look after him and take him to vets etc.
> 
> But although i didnt actually get the puppy my o/h did he said they seemed like decent people, but you could tell they breed for a living as they also bred Maine coons too. If it was me i probably wouldnt have bought the pup or would of gone back for a second visit.
> 
> ...


Hiya Sammykins

I agree with other poster - that is not elbow dysplasia- its likely it is some form of bone abnormality and nothing to do with tendons either.The abnormality is not at the elbow it appears from the way your pup is in the pic it is with the radius and ulna and the carpus joint(his wrist).The breeder is unlikely to be at fault for this condition.Its very likely the other pups are fine from the litter to.I would imagine the orthopaedic specialist will want to examine the pup once they see the radiographs and my thoughts would be either casts or they may feel they need to realign the bones into the normal position that they should be in and then the legs would be placed in casts until the bones heal.
With regards to your insurance - and please note this carefully!If you have the free insurance and then continue the policy WITHOUT ANY BREAK the condition will be covered.Now i see you say your cover is with petplan - they do something which is called a pre authorisation claim in that your vet can submit a pre authorisation claim to see if it will be covered for that condition.You must speak to your vet, petplan and referring vet to organise this -you cant do it yourself.
If however the condition was noted by your vet when you took the free insurance out this condition will be excluded - but that doesnt seem the case at all.
Hope you get promising news from the specialist.


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## pickle (Mar 24, 2008)

Very sound and knowledgable advice. Rep for you!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

thanks for all your time, letting me know different things it could be. Also about the insurance, i will be discussing this on tuesday.

It does seem more at the wrist as the paws always turn out to the side, which then makes his knees bend outwards. As he walks you see him holding his front legs lower and lower until he then has to lay down! bless him. Then he has a rest (charges himself up) then will walk wobbly again until he finds himself on the floor again!

Lets hope they know what it could be. We definately know he has curvitures in both legs and that his growth plates are abnormal, the vet was saying that he thought it was a development/genetic problem, but still he was unsure. He also doesnt know the other leg has gone now. But will find out tuesday.

fingers crossed, thanks for all the good luck we may need it!


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

Has the vet considered Wobblers Syndrome? We get a Doberman in boarding with that condition and his legs look very similar to your puppys.

I hope whatever it is can be treated poor little mite.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

ive just googled wobblers syndrome and it i dont think its the same as it look like it starts in the pelvis area then goes to the back legs, as my dog its all just in the front 2 legs. Thanks for your message, its good to know names of different leg problems so i can google them to see if they match.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

This looks like carpal flexural deformity or 'knuckling over'. I have only ever seen pictures in a textbook,though. As someone else has already said, its caused by the bones growing faster than the muscles and tendons, causing contraction of the wrist. And with support in the form of bandages dogs should grow out of it.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> This looks like carpal flexural deformity or 'knuckling over'. I have only ever seen pictures in a textbook,though. As someone else has already said, its caused by the bones growing faster than the muscles and tendons, causing contraction of the wrist. And with support in the form of bandages dogs should grow out of it.


Had a google of that and i found this link the OP might find useful:

Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM

Looks and sounds very similar.


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## Snuggles (Nov 17, 2008)

sammykins said:


> ive just googled wobblers syndrome and it i dont think its the same as it look like it starts in the pelvis area then goes to the back legs, as my dog its all just in the front 2 legs. Thanks for your message, its good to know names of different leg problems so i can google them to see if they match.


I've just had a google and found that information too.  The dog I mentioned doesn't have any problem with his back end, just his front legs. It's mainly his 'ankle' joint that folds at all angles and his elbows bow and buckle which is why I mentioned it. Whatever it is, I hope he's on the mend really soon. Give him a squidge from me.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> This looks like carpal flexural deformity or 'knuckling over'. I have only ever seen pictures in a textbook,though. As someone else has already said, its caused by the bones growing faster than the muscles and tendons, causing contraction of the wrist. And with support in the form of bandages dogs should grow out of it.


Do you know what.... i think you have just hit the nail on the head!!! this looks exactly like it! he is not continously on his knees yet but i can see this looks very similar, and looks bad if not treated. Weird how that the food could have caused this, he has only been on iams and puppy milk, although i have bought royal canin i havnt yet used it! i wonder if they have to be on a special diet forever, as its some type of food imbalance! hmmmm, well i shall tell the vet when i see him (i shall see what he says first) then if he tells me something else, i will ask for my money back - lol.

thanks so much for that information at least i can look into it furthur before vets tuesday x


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## Matrix/Logan (May 7, 2009)

sammykins said:


> Do you know what.... i think you have just hit the nail on the head!!! this looks exactly like it! he is not continously on his knees yet but i can see this looks very similar, and looks bad if not treated. Weird how that the food could have caused this, he has only been on iams and puppy milk, although i have bought royal canin i havnt yet used it! i wonder if they have to be on a special diet forever, as its some type of food imbalance! hmmmm, well i shall tell the vet when i see him (i shall see what he says first) then if he tells me something else, i will ask for my money back - lol.
> 
> thanks so much for that information at least i can look into it furthur before vets tuesday x


Just been reading all of this thread, you say he has been on iams and puppy milk yet you have had reason to doubt the breeder has been truthfull in other areas! Is there a possibility that the breeder has been dishonest about what the pup has been reared on and just gave you that food name as he knows it to be a good food??  

Hope you get your little on sorted. X


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

im not sure but he does seem an honest person, when i phoned him last week to double check his food intake as i explained this could be the reason why he had a problem in his legs. The breeder questioned me what i was giving him!! i had only had him 2 days so doubt that would make a difference to what i was feeding him even if i had of offered him crap! but even iams might not be good enough if he has this knuckling over. 

This is an extract to explain more

The term coined by professional breeders for this condition is knuckling over, and it describes a condition where the front end assembly of the dog, the weight bearing part of the body, is unable to support the whole body weight of the puppy, due to a lack of integrity in the muscle, tendon and ligaments. It is my opinion this condition is not genetic - it is due to uneven growth pattern between the bone and tissue/muscle of the puppy and it is cause by dietary imbalances and/or missing micro-minerals and/or minerals that are not available to the body - difficult to assimilate.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

Well from what I've read in Nonnie's link (the great dane lady) there seems to be a variety of possible causes - including feeding too much of a good food!



> What Causes This Extreme Knuckling Over?
> 
> Knuckling over is caused by the following:
> 
> ...


And she seems pretty certain of the brand she's promoting


> One critical key to the correction of this problem is the use of Eagle Natural or Eagle Super Premium Large/Breed Puppy food both 23% protein and 12% fat - 360 calories per cup which is moderate. I have tried to use other foods when Eagle was not available and we had no luck. I can't get this problem corrected quickly on any other food. It is the balance of moderate protein/fats/carbs making it a moderate calorie diet and fed in proper amounts it works. The big secret to a quick turn around time is the macro minerals in Eagle products are easily assimilated by the body, and the inclusion of microminerals, which are often omitted in most foods, makes this food the ideal composition to "even out" the growth patterns between the muscle and bone. Add to that mix a good joint support supplement that contains MSM- nutritional sulfur and we can correct this problem in short order.


Well of course we're always a bit suspicious of what we read on the web but this lady certainly seems very genuine and I know if I was in the same position as you I'd be contacting her at least to chat. It does seem like you can afford to hope for sammykins to improve (and quite rapidly) with the right diet and care, based on the info on her page. Fingers crossed for you. He does look so very sorry for himself in the pics bless him.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

Nonnie said:


> Had a google of that and i found this link the OP might find useful:
> 
> Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM
> 
> Looks and sounds very similar.


This site worries me somewhat. She seems to state a lot of things as fact, when in actual fact they are her opinion. I can't really find out from her site what her qualifications are, other than breeding great danes. 
From what I have tried to find out, there has been little research done on this condition as it is unusual in dogs. So exactly what causes it isn't entirely clear. 
The best source of info for you will probably be an orthopaedic specialist,
fingers crossed for you that this is what it is, and it is easily treated!
x


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

what i want to know (which it doesnt say on the greatdane website) is if the dog could have a life time of problems in this area, and will i need to keep a watchful eye all the time with his food. As she just talks about when they are young and when they are on the correct food their legs improve, even if using splints for a couple of weeks, the legs will be better etc etc. It has no mention of long term effects.

At least i feel i know what it is now.


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## mollythecollie (Aug 29, 2009)

sammykins said:


> what i want to know (which it doesnt say on the greatdane website) is if the dog could have a life time of problems in this area, and will i need to keep a watchful eye all the time with his food. As she just talks about when they are young and when they are on the correct food their legs improve, even if using splints for a couple of weeks, the legs will be better etc etc. It has no mention of long term effects.
> 
> At least i feel i know what it is now.


Once he is fully grown there will be no need to watch his diet as his bones will be fully developed. From what I have read, there is no underlying disease in the bone or muscle, so the problem is purely mechanical- therefore once it resolves he should be completely normal. If it doesn't resolve before he stops growing, then you would need surgery, which has various risks and complications which potentially could cause him problems in the future.


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## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

mollythecollie said:


> This site worries me somewhat. She seems to state a lot of things as fact, when in actual fact they are her opinion. I can't really find out from her site what her qualifications are, other than breeding great danes.
> From what I have tried to find out, there has been little research done on this condition as it is unusual in dogs. So exactly what causes it isn't entirely clear.
> The best source of info for you will probably be an orthopaedic specialist,
> fingers crossed for you that this is what it is, and it is easily treated!
> x


I wouldnt rely on any website for a concrete diagnosis and treatment plan myself. They are handy for a bit of research, but shouldnt always been taken as cold hard fact.

Seems its more well known in horses than it is in dogs.


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

i think i may have taken her site as concrete as there isnt anything else on the condition on the website. When you read something that looks like it makes sense then you normally believe it.

But i do wonder if it is just an advertisement for her selling food. lol


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## james1 (Sep 21, 2008)

with any bone or joint troube. the chances of arthritis developing is increased... its a guess as to when and how severe it will be..


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2010)

http://old.vri.cz/docs/vetmed/51-2-71.pdf

Intoxicating Bullies American Bulldogs - Kunckling Over

These might be of interest


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

sammykins said:


> what i want to know (which it doesnt say on the greatdane website) is if the dog could have a life time of problems in this area, and will i need to keep a watchful eye all the time with his food. As she just talks about when they are young and when they are on the correct food their legs improve, even if using splints for a couple of weeks, the legs will be better etc etc. It has no mention of long term effects.
> 
> At least i feel i know what it is now.


as i say at the beginning of this thread, if this stage is helped with some plaster/splinter (need to be fitted properly by a specialist ortho - nurse) the pup grows out of it in a week /10 days, loads of rest and very little walkies (something like 5-10 minutes every pother day) and never to be heard of again.

corrective surgery will be necessary only if the condition persists well into the growing stage. but it seems stupid not to spend a few tenners now and risk the surgery at alater date....unless the vet wants to cash in the insurance...
or has other serioous reasons not toproceed.

good luck#

best
D


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## dimkaz (Jul 27, 2009)

rona said:


> http://old.vri.cz/docs/vetmed/51-2-71.pdf
> 
> Intoxicating Bullies American Bulldogs - Kunckling Over
> 
> These might be of interest


i guess the prost paper on the acta veterinaria says it all!


quote:The facts that; carpal flexural deformity is seen in
particularly 6-10 week old puppies, that these puppies
are separated from their mother a short while
before and that similar to our findings, in puppies
belonging to the same litter, the deformity was seen
in 3 Anatolian Sheepdog puppies separated from
their mother a short while earlier but that it was
not seen in the remaining littermates continuing
to suckle their mother, shows the relationship between
this lesion and feeding. Appearance of the
lesion in the later stages of parvoviral infection in
3 puppies reported by a practicing veterinary surgeon
supports the idea that it may be related to
nutritional deficiency.

i think also that this support the normal practice of keeping the pups of giant breeds (or type) with the mother much longer than for smaller size is good practice (and obviously breed less from the brood bitch)


* great find!*


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

thats interesting, they were apparently weaned at 3 and half weeks (im sure thats what he said) so i think they probably should be with its mum for longer. I reckon this is the problem, taken away to early, maybe your right its important for larger breeds to suckle longer.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

sammykins said:


> ...they were apparently weaned at 3 and half weeks (im sure thats what he said) so i think they probably should be with its mum for longer. I reckon this is the problem, taken away to early, maybe your right *its important for larger breeds to suckle longer. *


OMG, *sammy! :yikes: that is frightful - 
when left to their own devices, pups are only *exploring* semi-solid food at about 5-weeks.  that #[email protected]!* _ created _ his pups problems, and IMO there were not only physical consequences. NORMAL dams do not wean their pups at 3.5-WO, ergo there is either something wrong with the dam... or she was deliberately removed from her pups at that age, which leads to multiple behavioral consequences, including poor dog-social-skills, over-attachment to humans and potential sep-anx, potential dog-reactivity or dog-aggro as adults, and many many more. :nonod: i am so, so sorry for the entire litter. 

i am horrified - this news is dreadful. Please, PLEASE - keep us apprised of the pups later development, if U get updates? 
if the future-owner is willing, ask if they would post here? 
very much concerned + upset, 
--- terry


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

we have decided to keep the pup, after much discussion about this problem.

So i shall let you know of updates. He definatly said he weaned them at 3 and half weeks, but not sure what he weaned them onto to start with or if he just did iams with puppy milk soaked into it. I need to ask more questions. 

I will call him again tommorow.


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## lady_r0gue (Jul 22, 2009)

Aw I'm so pleased, I fell in :001_tt1: with his little face in the pics on your first post about him and secretly hoped you would xx I wish you all the best with him x get well soon sammykins you've got your forever family to look out for you now xxx


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2010)

sammykins said:


> hi my o/h bought a puppy last wednesday eve, 2 days after we had it its front leg started to bend abnormally, i will try and describe as best i can: its paw turns to the side and its wrist bends forward which then makes its knee bend outwards!! its so hard to explain but anyway it has become worse, i took him to the vets monday, they were worried it was broken, so they xrayed - it wasnt broken, they asked what food he was on, he has always had iams dry puppy food with top life puppy milk. they said his growth plates looked abnormal and that he had a curviture in both front legs. He is sending the xrays off to a specialist and we will find out tuesday.
> 
> Anyway a day after coming back from the vets his other leg is doing the same. when he eats from his bowl, both legs splay out to the side. He falls over alot and lays down alot as they seem to be under a very un-natural strain.
> 
> ...


Just look at this sweet little pup folks!
Then ask me why I am flaming mad!
It don't take no genuis to work it out!!

click the link above!
DT


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Just look at this sweet little pup folks!
> Then ask me why I am flaming mad!
> It don't take no genuis to work it out!!
> 
> ...


Hate to tell you DT but there isn't a link there!


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

OMG :crying: poor baby


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2010)

simplysardonic said:


> Hate to tell you DT but there isn't a link there!


It showed up mate!
Was trying to post the picture of the poor innocent pup who never asked to be born!
Combination of a BYB and muppet buyer!
Flaming mad gotta go before I explode!


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2010)

Dally Banjo said:


> OMG :crying: poor baby


That is the dog some muppet is trying to offload because it bit!
Bullsh*t

edited to remove my bad language!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

DoubleTrouble said:


> That is the dog some scumbag is trying to offload because it bit!
> Bullsh*t


Never realised the dog was hers, I thought he was her F-I-L's, yet in this thread she repeatedly refers to the dog as hers:confused1:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

It's obviously her dog. Am not sure whether she jus made up the FIL story or if she did palm the dog off on to him when she got bored of it!


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2010)

lady_r0gue said:


> Aw I'm so pleased, I fell in :001_tt1: with his little face in the pics on your first post about him and secretly hoped you would xx I wish you all the best with him x get well soon sammykins you've got your forever family to look out for you now xxx


Funny how things can change once the puppy stage is over ain't it!


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## Dally Banjo (Oct 22, 2009)

:crazy: my heads not working tonight but I will say if that puppys legs are fixed now can I have the number of the vet.


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## celicababe1986 (Jun 22, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> OMG, *sammy! :yikes: that is frightful -
> when left to their own devices, pups are only *exploring* semi-solid food at about 5-weeks.  that #[email protected]!* _ created _ his pups problems, and IMO there were not only physical consequences. NORMAL dams do not wean their pups at 3.5-WO, ergo there is either something wrong with the dam... or she was deliberately removed from her pups at that age, which leads to multiple behavioral consequences, including poor dog-social-skills, over-attachment to humans and potential sep-anx, potential dog-reactivity or dog-aggro as adults, and many many more. :nonod: i am so, so sorry for the entire litter.
> 
> i am horrified - this news is dreadful. Please, PLEASE - keep us apprised of the pups later development, if U get updates?
> ...


From what Terry says here, could this be the reason for the pups behaviour which she has announced? sep-anx, poor social skills etc....:frown:


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

Dally Banjo said:


> :crazy: my heads not working tonight but I will say if that puppys legs are fixed now can I have the number of the vet.


you can have my number if you want! i sorted his legs out myself with the correct diet!


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## sammykins (Dec 2, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> It's obviously her dog. Am not sure whether she jus made up the FIL story or if she did palm the dog off on to him when she got bored of it!


wernt bored of him at all ... he wasnt for me in the first place, but yes i referred to him as mine - so what! He is lovely but just unpredictable. I enjoy going to see him actually!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

sammykins said:


> wernt bored of him at all ... he wasnt for me in the first place, but yes i referred to him as mine - so what! He is lovely but just unpredictable. I enjoy going to see him actually!


sorry but i find it hard to believe that the poor little mites legs have been corrected by diet alone

did the puppy ever get to see a specialist then???????


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## Sarahnya (Oct 27, 2008)

I have seen this in Saluki's before, the vet didn't know what it was either (read about it on Saluki Preservation). I think it is caused by bones and tendons growing at different rates causing the leg to bow, in the Saluki's case it sorted itself out. At least thats what I remember reading but it was definitely the same thing and not ED as its the wrist thats effected.


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## babycham2002 (Oct 18, 2009)

There was a Rhodesian Ridgeback on animal cops (or something like that) The other night with that condition. It was heartbreaking to see.
They took the pup off the owner because she couldnt look after it in other ways and couldnt afford vets and the Inspector kept her through her progress, put her on a good diet, very gentle exercise and by 6 months she was a normal pup:thumbup: . The inspector lady kept her and I dont blame her, she was the most gorgeous little thing.


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## Watts250r (Nov 14, 2010)

Okay so what was the end verdict? My Pitbull puppy has this same problem and we don't know what to do? Most of your replies were just about the breeder, I dont have a breeder. And I jsut want to fix him! 
thanks


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Watts250r said:


> Okay so what was the end verdict? My Pitbull puppy has this same problem and we don't know what to do? Most of your replies were just about the breeder, I dont have a breeder. And I jsut want to fix him!
> thanks


this thread's a bit old, the end verdict was the dog was rehomed I believe


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Maybe start your own thread about your pups problem but it looks ike carpal laxaty/laxity (can't spell?) to me. I had a friend who had the same problem


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

and if you are in the UK change his breed to something that won't get him killed


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## leanne562 (Feb 16, 2012)

hi just wondered if his condition improved? my 8 week old american bulldog has this (knuckling over) and we have changed her diet to which it should help. thanks


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## Manoy Moneelil (Sep 1, 2011)

leanne562 said:


> hi just wondered if his condition improved? my 8 week old american bulldog has this (knuckling over) and we have changed her diet to which it should help. thanks


The OP (Original Poster) has not been active on the site for over a year, I doubt you will get any feedback.

But well done for finding the thread.


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## leanne562 (Feb 16, 2012)

ah. thanks for letting me know x


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