# There will always be a demand for x breeds.



## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Having just read a previous post from some poor unsuspecting newbie,who`s probably to scared to turn on her computer:shocked:
I can see where all the points from pedigree dog breeders are coming from,but the fact remains that some people will always activley seek out x breed puppys,rescues are all very good,but not always a suitable or desired option.some people like a puppy,who they can mould into their family life,with no hidden problems or issues,its a fact and no amount of slating,or name calling will change that.There is also a difference between a byb and someone who breeds the odd litter from family pets,gives them proper care and attention,and rehomes them responsibly.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*i couldnt agree with with you more...each to their own is my oppion...but apparently as i'm not a breeder i shouldnt have a say..*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I find it really sad that someone who considers breeding cross is called by members automaticilly a byb....

People have the right to breed cross the same like people have the right to breed pedigrees imo


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Anyone who breeds without proper health checks or looking at the current climate and weither or not dogs are selling PLUS the amount of there chosen breeds are in rescues is IMO a BYB.
Even if you just want a pup out of your bitch tests should still be done as you very very seldomly (sp) get 1 pup in a litter!

No there wont be a demand for cross breeds BUT YES people will breed anyway as its easy cash


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> Having just read a previous post from some poor unsuspecting newbie,who`s probably to scared to turn on her computer:shocked:
> I can see where all the points from pedigree dog breeders are coming from,but the fact remains that some people will always activley seek out x breed puppys,rescues are all very good,but not always a suitable or desired option.some people like a puppy,who they can mould into their family life,with no hidden problems or issues,its a fact and no amount of slating,or name calling will change that.There is also a difference between a byb and someone who breeds the odd litter from family pets,gives them proper care and attention,and rehomes them responsibly.


Also some organisations ie Guide Dogs for The Blind actively cross breed dogs ie Labrador with Golden Retriever because they are trying to get the perfect Guide Dog.

Perhaps we should give them a call...lol


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but roll on when the KC get the legislation to regulate breeders.When and if crossbreeds are allowed they will be bred under strict guidelines and a code of ethics.Hopefully this will put an end to BYB and PF's expoliting dogs for fianicial gain.
I see nothing wrong with crossbreeds that are bred for a purpose,working dogs for instance,what I do see as wrong is some one deliberatly breeding two incompatible breeds which have the same health issue,so doubling up on problems which then become apparent in a young puppy causing destress and pain,for both pup and owner.
This is breeding at it's worst apart from PF's.

I asked two questions,one I have asked myself. 
Why am I breeding ? I have been asked this question time and time again.
It's a perfectly reasonable question. Do I get offended No I answer honestly.
When I was searching for my current dogs I asked the breeder why the litter was bred,again I see nothing wrong with that whatsoever.


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

I agree there will always be a demand for x breeds whether we/you like it or not we often get a phone call asking do we do x breeds, I know that the obedience and agility people do x breed so as to get the best competition dogs.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I do agree with the dogs being health testes etc but what is wrong with ppl breeding crossbreeds for pets?


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> I do agree with the dogs being health testes etc but what is wrong with ppl breeding crossbreeds for pets?


The problem is when that lovely cute pup has a massive vets bill and is in constant pain or has to be put down because the breeder didn't do health tests x


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> I do agree with the dogs being health testes etc but what is wrong with ppl breeding crossbreeds for pets?


Very often these dogs are not tested,not bred responsilbly,there is nothing wrong with breeding them if they are bred responsilbly,ethically and tested for conditions found within that particular breed.
However many are not this is the problem I have,if it's worth doing it's worth doing correctly.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

I think the problem is too many people assume everyone wants a pedigree dog with all the relevent paper work,and this in reality is not of any importance to a lot of people.papers and a registration number does not guarantee you a healthy happy pet.There are also as many pedigrees bred by registered owners in rescues as x breeds bred by familys,any dog can end up in a rescue,no one knows whats round the corner,no amount of testing and paperwork will ever change that,or guarantee a forever home.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Jem said:


> The problem is when that lovely cute pup has a massive vets bill and is in constant pain or has to be put down because the breeder didn't do health tests x


thats fair enough...

I believe when they do health test the dogs for the individuall health issues then they have the same right to breed cross like pedigree breeders have.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

I have no problem with cross breeds.. as long as they are bred by professionals who know what they are doing and are doing it for the dogs welfare and not their own pockets!

When me and my OH get our pup next year I can assure you it WILL have come from health tested parents relevant to the breed! We wouldn't have it any other way!


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides 
Re: There will always be a demand for x breeds.
I think the problem is too many people assume everyone wants a pedigree dog with all the relevent paper work,and this in reality is not of any importance to a lot of people.papers and a registration number does not guarantee you a healthy happy pet.There are also as many pedigrees bred by registered owners in rescues as x breeds bred by familys,any dog can end up in a rescue,no one knows whats round the corner,no amount of testing and paperwork will ever change that,or guarantee a forever home.

I didn't want a pedigree dog thats why i own a Northern Inuit  
BUT I made sure i could see all living relatives and all of there health checks


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> I think the problem is too many people assume everyone wants a pedigree dog with all the relevent paper work,and this in reality is not of any importance to a lot of people.papers and a registration number does not guarantee you a healthy happy pet.


I would disagree with this slightly,it may not be important to you me or anyone else but it is important to the dog.
For instance,a couple want a first dog,I will use my breed,they go pick an SBT from a local ad,they only want a pet,papers etc not important.
Pup starts having fits at 7 months old,it has L2 HGA - No known cure,vet can't stabalise the pup,at 9 months it is PTS.
A couple take there time research buy pup with paperwork,this puppy is clear from L2,it will never develop the problem or pass it on.



shortbackandsides said:


> There are also as many pedigrees bred by registered owners in rescues as x breeds bred by familys,any dog can end up in a rescue,no one knows whats round the corner,no amount of testing and paperwork will ever change that,or guarantee a forever home.


Very True this is why we need to be encouraging responsible ethical breeding,with breeder support 24/7 and to make breeders aware they should take back a pup / dog they bred regardless of it's age,if more breeders did this our rescue would not be in the mess it's in.
As far as I'm concerned if they are not willing to do this then they are not responsible and in my opinion should not be breeding.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

I don't for one moment doubt that there will always be a call for cross breed dogs - infact our vet has told us that he would only ever consider a mongrol - and that we have to remember is what they are - any cross breed dog with it's 'designer' price tag it still a mongrol when it is sat in rescue waiting to be rehomed.

I am against ALLl breeding without the relevant health checks being carried out - whether pedigree or not! having lost a dog this year aged just 4 years old to AI and with a vet bill is excess of £11k I can tell you it bl**dy hurts to see your beloved pet dying and in pain in front of your eyes. OK you say - this happens to pedigree dogs all the time - and yes it does - but seriously - tell me honestly - do owners who are planning breeding from too different breeds bother with any health checks?? And a per the KC code of ethics cross breeding is not permitted.

regards
Sue
Nothing I have said is meant to be nasty to anyone - these are my own personal beliefs and something I feel strongly about - we are all entitled to our opinions - if we dish it out - we can expect to get it back - but I still stand firm on this one - so sorry in advance if I have offended.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> but seriously - tell me honestly - do owners who are planning breeding from too different breeds bother with any health checks??


But u cant rule out that there arent any breeders of crossbreeds out there who health test.

Im sure there are responsible crossbreed breeders out there too.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

there are responsible and selfish/irresponsible breeders on both sides of the fence.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> But u cant rule out that there arent any breeders of crossbreeds out there who health test.
> 
> Im sure there are responsible crossbreed breeders out there too.


Good point - but if breeding for finacial gain this would not be viable surely, and I am sorry but I cannot imagine that many people would want to breed - to lose money - and lets face it - should there be complecations this can be very costly
.
regards
sue


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> there are responsible and selfish/irresponsible breeders on both sides of the fence.


On that I will agree (just this once) my smiley face is broke but pretend there is one inserted here!


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Good point - but if breeding for finacial gain this would not be viable surely, and I am sorry but I cannot imagine that many people would want to breed - to lose money - and lets face it - should there be complecations this can be very costly
> .
> regards
> sue


you are assuming that all people x breed pets for financial gain


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

DoubleTrouble said:


> Good point - but if breeding for finacial gain this would not be viable surely, and I am sorry but I cannot imagine that many people would want to breed - to lose money - and lets face it - should there be complecations this can be very costly
> .
> regards
> sue


If u breed for financial gain then it doesnt really matter if u breed cross or pedigree.... as both would make u money somehow.


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

at the risk at being shouted at .i will put my hand up :001_tt1:im expecting a litter of crossbreeds ,the parents are health tested ,fit for function and proven in both field and show ring ,at least 6 of the pups have prebooked homes ,but the mixture is a age old proven type


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> you are assuming that all people x breed pets for financial gain


NO - but I am assuming they are not doing it to lose money - which as I explained - with complications can very easily be the case.
regards
sue


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## jilly40 (Oct 22, 2008)

my parents bought a cockerpoo as i have said on previous threads.both her parents were kc reg & both had health checks.they had 2 wait 4 a puppy but they would rather do that than get a pup with possible problems.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Natik said:


> If u breed for financial gain then it doesnt really matter if u breed cross or pedigree.... as both would make u money somehow.


Yes because it's not done properly responsilbly or ethically.

I will be completely honest I have never made money from breeding,lost a fair few hundred but not gained.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

terriermaid said:


> at the risk at being shouted at .i will put my hand up :001_tt1:im expecting a litter of crossbreeds ,the parents are health tested ,fit for function and proven in both field and show ring ,at least 6 of the pups have prebooked homes ,but the mixture is a age old proven type


But you are breeding working dogs - bit different I reckon


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

i have bred hunting dogs for years i know if my dogs are healthy dont have to line vets pockets to tell me something i allready know


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## terriermaid (Nov 5, 2007)

borderer said:


> i have bred hunting dogs for years i know if my dogs are healthy dont have to line vets pockets to tell me something i allready know


i agree but as i used a bedlington i would rather use one tested for copper


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Yes because it's not done properly responsilbly or ethically.
> 
> I will be completely honest I have never made money from breeding,lost a fair few hundred but not gained.


Sally, I admire your passion for animal welfare. I take my hat off to you - you appear to be a very busy person what with neighbour disputes and problems with your kids schools.

The fact you still have time to be the 'voice' for these dogs is commendable.

Out of interest, please explain why you breed. Thanks.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Sally, I admire your passion for animal welfare. I take my hat off to you - you appear to be a very busy person what with neighbour disputes and problems with your kids schools.
> 
> The fact you still have time to be the 'voice' for these dogs is commendable.
> 
> Out of interest, please explain why you breed. Thanks.


*now that did make me laugh....:lol::lol: i wish we had a smiley sitting on a throne.*


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

terriermaid said:


> i agree but as i used a bedlington i would rather use one tested for copper


i dont have bedlington becouse of copper toxicosis.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Sally, I admire your passion for animal welfare. I take my hat off to you - you appear to be a very busy person what with neighbour disputes and problems with your kids schools.
> 
> The fact you still have time to be the 'voice' for these dogs is commendable.
> 
> Out of interest, please explain why you breed. Thanks.


Well out of interest,I am human the same as everyone else,I have problems the same as most other people,yes I still have time to use forums and speak out for animals afterall they need a "voice" sometimes don't they.Pity someone never spoke out for Baby P.
I don't actually see the relavance,at least I am acting and doing something about it - I fight for what I believe in unlike some.

I don't just breed,I show my dogs first if they don't like the ring for whatever reason they are accessed by breed Judges.I take onboard what they say,
I breed to improve on what I own,I breed to keep a puppy back to show and further our lines.
I only breed from clear dogs,I research pedigree's,talk to stud owners line up the best possible dog for my bitch.No not necessarily a CH Dog,I only breed when I want a puppy not for other people,but I also make sure my pups have a home lined up BEFORE I breed.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

borderer said:


> i dont have bedlington becouse of copper toxicosis.


whats that?


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

borderer said:


> i have bred hunting dogs for years i know if my dogs are healthy dont have to line vets pockets to tell me something i allready know


not replying this to raise an arguement - but I thought that my girl was healthy - OK - she did initally come from a BSB but I had rescued her at just under a year old - she was the most fabulous dog I have had the pleasure of owning
- and I know i shall never get another to go anywhere near her.

It was not until she was diagnosed and I looked deeper into her pedigree did it come to light the degree of what a bad breeding was..
AI - is this case was the cruellest thing that I have ever seen - I shall never forget my girl - and would hate to see another dog suffer in such a way. BUT - having said that - had she had been dagnosed earlier she could well still be with us today.
regards
Sue
xxx
i'll bow out now -


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Well out of interest,I am human the same as everyone else,I have problems the same as most other people,yes I still have time to use forums and speak out for animals afterall they need a "voice" sometimes don't they.Pity someone never spoke out for Baby P.
> I don't actually see the relavance,at least I am acting and doing something about it - I fight for what I believe in unlike some.
> 
> I don't just breed,I show my dogs first if they don't like the ring for whatever reason they are accessed by breed Judges.I take onboard what they say,
> ...


But what I don't understand is - there are more Staffies in rescue centres than probably any other breed. So surely breeding more to 'show' is being irresponsible. I for one, if there were an influx of Goldens in rescue would have one of them. The staffies in rescues should find homes first before any more are bred.

Sorry not having a go, but there are two sides to everything.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> Having just read a previous post from some poor unsuspecting newbie,who`s probably to scared to turn on her computer:shocked:
> I can see where all the points from pedigree dog breeders are coming from,but the fact remains that some people will always activley seek out x breed puppys,rescues are all very good,but not always a suitable or desired option.some people like a puppy,who they can mould into their family life,with no hidden problems or issues,its a fact and no amount of slating,or name calling will change that.There is also a difference between a byb and someone who breeds the odd litter from family pets,gives them proper care and attention,and rehomes them responsibly.


So if someone just wants a puppy that looks and acts like their present dog This means a good reason to breed??? Can I ask you
What happens to the other litter mates? maybe another 9 Mongrels to rehome


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> But what I don't understand is - there are more Staffies in rescue centres than probably any other breed. So surely breeding more to 'show' is being irresponsible. I for one, if there were an influx of Goldens in rescue would have one of them. The staffies in rescues should find homes first before any more are bred.
> 
> Sorry not having a go, but there are two sides to everything.


Well said....Very true


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *now that did make me laugh....:lol::lol: i wish we had a smiley sitting on a throne.*


Now why post a reply like this Janice!!! You are a member who condones sarcastic postsa nd automatically posts BULLY


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> So if someone just wants a puppy that looks and acts like their present dog This means a good reason to breed??? Can I ask you
> What happens to the other litter mates? maybe another 9 Mongrels to rehome


And who said that only this is a good enough reason? 
But i guess if the health tests come out ok too then whats wrong with it then?


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Now why post a reply like this Janice!!! You are a member who condones sarcastic postsa nd automatically posts BULLY


Hi Clueless my post was not intended as sarcastic.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> But what I don't understand is - there are more Staffies in rescue centres than probably any other breed. So surely breeding more to 'show' is being irresponsible. I for one, if there were an influx of Goldens in rescue would have one of them. The staffies in rescues should find homes first before any more are bred.
> 
> Sorry not having a go, but there are two sides to everything.


Yes there are and maybe you would like to take your side of the argument to other breeders,
I have not bred a litter for 13 years,my dog is only available to approved bitches whose owners agree to our terms and conditions.
Most of the SBT's in rescue are bred by BYB,very rarely do you see a well bred SBT in rescue.
I don't consider breeding to show is irresponsible,I consider breeding for fianicial gain irresponsible,Why when I am breeding to standard for a purpose,to good clear dogs,with homes lined up,our support 24/7 365 days a year,willing to take a dog back we bred,insisting any dog or bitch from our litter which is not to be shown /bred from be neutered,sold under contract with endorsements.Irresponsible I don't think so.
Many good SBT Breeders are not breeding at the moment including us.
For what purpose did your breeder breed ?

A rescue dog is not for everyone,some people prefer pups,as long as puppies have suitable homes lined up I don't see a problem.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> But what I don't understand is - there are more Staffies in rescue centres than probably any other breed. So surely breeding more to 'show' is being irresponsible. I for one, if there were an influx of Goldens in rescue would have one of them. The staffies in rescues should find homes first before any more are bred.
> 
> Sorry not having a go, but there are two sides to everything.


IMO Most staffies in rescue are from people who have sub standard pets and decide to breed and sell on to whoever has the money for a pup. 
As stated quite a few times on here Responsible Breeders like Sal take back dogs they have bred from homes that may not work out. This is a big difference in the Irresponsible/ Responsible Breeders arguement


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Now why post a reply like this Janice!!! You are a member who condones sarcastic postsa nd automatically posts BULLY


What's with calling her a BULLY?......Sarcasm has nothing to do with it, it's an opinion. Oh and a sense of humour never hurt anyone


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Yes there are and maybe you would like to take your side of the argument to other breeders,
> I have not bred a litter for 13 years,my dog is only available to approved bitches whose owners agree to our terms and conditions.
> Most of the SBT's in rescue are bred by BYB,very rarely do you see a well bred SBT in rescue.
> I don't consider breeding breeding to show is irresponsible,I consider breeding for fianicial gain irresponsible,Why when I am breeding to standard for a purpose,to good clear dogs,with homes lined up,our support 24/7 365 days a year,willing to take a dog back we bred,insisting any dog or bitch from our litter which is not to be shown /bred from be neutered,sold under contract with endorsements.Irresponsible I don't think so.
> ...


For whatever you breed your dogs Sally, the fact of the matter remains there are heaps of staffies in rescue.

The breeder of my pup, breeds because she shows them. She has bred very good lines, with excellent temperaments. But there are not heaps of GOlden Retreivers in rescue. If you see any point me in the direction.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> Hi Clueless my post was not intended as sarcastic.


Well maybe Janice should be told that


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> What's with calling her a BULLY?......Sarcasm has nothing to do with it, it's an opinion. Oh and a sense of humour never hurt anyone


Read it again I have never called anyone a Bully. Recently there has been an influx of posts stating Bullying from members who are infact posting very sarcastic posts


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

I find this thread quite bizarre... 

Look at it this way, regardless of the rights and wrongs of indiscriminate breeding, breeding crossbreds, breeding from nonhealth tested dogs, breeding is not easy. To do it well it is expensive, hard work, involves sleepless nights, endless poo, and often much heartache too.

Anyone who is considering breeding had better get a seriously thick skin if they haven't already got one. Not just because they will dealing with the above, but because they will be dealing with the public, grilling future puppy owners, and have to be on hand for any help, emergency needed and deal with it in a helpful calm way. 

If they expect everything to be fluffy and lovely and cute little puppies that everyone thinks are wonderful, then they are in for a shock and totally unprepared. And if they are frighten off because posts have not been all positive, then they are likely to be ill prepared. The least of their problems will be a few questioning or critical posts on a forum.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> For whatever you breed your dogs Sally, the fact of the matter remains there are heaps of staffies in rescue.
> 
> The breeder of my pup, breeds because she shows them. She has bred very good lines, with excellent temperaments. But there are not heaps of GOlden Retreivers in rescue. If you see any point me in the direction.


Are you suggesting that because there are alot of poorly bred SBTs in rescue, the result of BYBs, that the decent and experienced breeders should stop breeding?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Are you suggesting that because there are alot of poorly bred SBTs in rescue, the result of BYBs, that the decent and experienced breeders should stop breeding?


Ha Maybe the Responsible Breeders should take a back seat and let the BYB and Puppyfarmers take over


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Read it again I have never called anyone a Bully. Recently there has been an influx of posts stating Bullying from members who are infact posting very sarcastic posts


It is your opinion that they are sarcastic....Mrsdusty already stated she was not being sarcastic and if you are refering to others, then once again it is not sarcasm but their opinions....which i assume they are entitled to....or am i wrong?


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Are you suggesting that because there are alot of poorly bred SBTs in rescue, the result of BYBs, that the decent and experienced breeders should stop breeding?


I am not suggesting anything. But something should be done about the staffies already in rescue. Do you not think?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> What's with calling her a BULLY?......Sarcasm has nothing to do with it, it's an opinion. Oh and a sense of humour never hurt anyone


Wishing there was a smilie sitting on a throne is not an opinion Is It? Have I missed something due to lacking a sense of humour


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Wishing there was a smilie sitting on a throne is not an opinion Is It? Have I missed something due to lacking a sense of humour


Clearly you are as i found the remark funny 
But just because some find a comment funny doesn't mean it's sarcasm.


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> I am not suggesting anything. But something should be done about the staffies already in rescue. Do you not think?


Yes of course..there are alot of idiots out there over breeding these poor dogs for financial gain..

However.. it would also be a shame if decent SBT breeders stopped breeding as there would then be no more SBTs available with clear health tests and decent bloodlines.... and after all, these are the types of SBTs you will not find in rescue centres.

Each breed has their turn unfortunately.. in the next few years it could be the Retriever, Labrador, Poodle etc that will be filling up the rescue centres. But that doesnt mean the decent, honest breeders should stop breeding


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I believe that alot of staffs in rescues come from responsible breeders too.
Thats why i believe all dogs should be marked or microchipped by the breeders and the rescue should inform then the breeder about their dogs having end up in the rescue.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Yes we need to regulate breeding.
By good breeders stopping breeding little will be achieved in my opinion,dogs will still appear in rescues,a sad fact of life.

Your breeder bred for the same reason I did,yet I'm irresponsible.
I feel sorry for those dogs in rescue but it's not my fault they are there,I help rescue,I home check,I donate money.

To date Golden Retriever Rescue has found homes for over 5000 Golden Retrievers,given these stats,should your breeder have bred ?


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> I am not suggesting anything. But something should be done about the staffies already in rescue. Do you not think?


IMO Something needs done about any rescue dog. SBT are high numbered in rescues due to the demand they had from a lot idiots only wanting this breed as a status symbol.
By stopping the Resposible Breeders from breeding SBT will only encourage more underground Irresponsible Mating. Then the price of Staffs would shoot up so adding to more Irresponsible Breeders jumping on the band wagon for the money.
It does happen, think of the breeds that most Puppyfarmers sell, popular breeds!!!
edited: The Pit Bull is Illegal to Breed or Own in the UK But there are loads about and the money being asked is incredible. If someone wants a breed they will pay for it


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Yes of course..there are alot of idiots out there over breeding these poor dogs for financial gain..
> 
> However.. it would also be a shame if decent SBT breeders stopped breeding as there would then be no more SBTs available with clear health tests and decent bloodlines.... and after all, these are the types of SBTs you will not find in rescue centres.
> 
> Each breed has their turn unfortunately.. in the next few years it could be the Retriever, Labrador, Poodle etc that will be filling up the rescue centres. But that doesnt mean the decent, honest breeders should stop breeding


I cant see that well bred dogs wouldnt end up in rescues,i can think of many scenarios that could lead to well bred dogs being put into a home.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Wishing there was a smilie sitting on a throne is not an opinion Is It? Have I missed something due to lacking a sense of humour


Clueless they are on a mission tonight,use your ignore button,same as me 
I can't be bothered with childish petty posts.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Yes we need to regulate breeding.
> By good breeders stopping breeding little will be achieved in my opinion,dogs will still appear in rescues,a sad fact of life.
> 
> Your breeder bred for the same reason I did,yet I'm irresponsible.
> ...


Sally I am only trying to demonstrate that there are two sides to a story. And the fact you and other Staff breeders have stopped breeding only highlight the fact that there are too many homeless Staffies.

And whether I think the breeder of my pup is responsible, well she does all the things you do, health tests, will take dog back at any time etc. personally I only believe in showing of dogs if it isn't detrimental to the dogs health or well being.

As for 5000 Golden Retrievers being re homed, I don't know over what period of time that is, or how it compares to other breeds.

But all I am trying to say , with out it becoming a tennis match, is that yes there will always be irresponsible breeders as well as irresponsible owners. And at the moment the Staffie seems to be the victim.

In no shape or form am I meaning to cause conflict.

If I could have got a Golden retriever from rescue that would suit my family and life style I would have done.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> I cant see that well bred dogs wouldnt end up in rescues,i can think of many scenarios that could lead to well bred dogs being put into a home.


Then I'm guessing you don't understand how responsible breeders work, nor have you been involved in rescue. In all the years I have been, helping rescue not one has been from a reputable breeder. I know of a rescue that did take one in from a reputable breeder and within hours of being contacted (through kc registration) the breeder picked up said dog....

Of course, that's not to say that dogs bred by responsible breeders will not require to be rehomed. No one knows what is round the corner, and changes in circumstances and problems can beset us all, but a responsible breeder will take the dog back and either keep it or rehome it themselves. These dogs DO NOT end up in rescue....


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> I cant see that well bred dogs wouldnt end up in rescues,i can think of many scenarios that could lead to well bred dogs being put into a home.


OK... if you believe that those poor dogs in rescue centres are well bred and from breeders that care then fine you believe that.

I am just speaking from having ALL of our dogs in the past from rescue centres.. we have always chosen GSDs & Labs and the state of their breeding has been disgusting.. not once have I seen a well bred dog waiting for a home.

Our current GSD was dumped in rescue as a puppy.. the vet actually offered put her to sleep when she was only 7 months old because of the state of her joints...

Now forgive me if I'm going on but I just find it incredibly frustrating when people just breed willy nilly because they feel it's their right to do so.. when so much of this mess can be avoided


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Then I'm guessing you don't understand how responsible breeders work, nor have you been involved in rescue. In all the years I have been, helping rescue not one has been from a reputable breeder. I know of a rescue that did take one in from a reputable breeder and within hours of being contacted (through kc registration) the breeder picked up said dog....
> 
> Of course, that's not to say that dogs bred by responsible breeders will not require to be rehomed. No one knows what is round the corner, and changes in circumstances and problems can beset us all, but a responsible breeder will take the dog back and either keep it or rehome it themselves. These dogs DO NOT end up in rescue....


so what happens if someone buys a registered dog from a responsible breeder and a couple of years down the line,due to family problems cant keep it anymore and hands dog into rescue minus papers?if someone doesnt want to try and sell it,this would be a easy option,they may not want to contact breeder,or they could sell dog on,minus papers,and they could give up in the future,i refuse to believe that no responsibly bred dog could end up in rescue.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Then I'm guessing you don't understand how responsible breeders work, nor have you been involved in rescue. In all the years I have been, helping rescue not one has been from a reputable breeder. I know of a rescue that did take one in from a reputable breeder and within hours of being contacted (through kc registration) the breeder picked up said dog....
> 
> Of course, that's not to say that dogs bred by responsible breeders will not require to be rehomed. No one knows what is round the corner, and changes in circumstances and problems can beset us all, but a responsible breeder will take the dog back and either keep it or rehome it themselves. These dogs DO NOT end up in rescue....


how can u tell if the dog in rescue is from an responsible or irresponsible breeder....im only curious


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

bee112 said:


> OK... if you believe that those poor dogs in rescue centres are well bred and from breeders that care then fine you believe that.
> 
> I am just speaking from having ALL of our dogs in the past from rescue centres.. we have always chosen GSDs & Labs and the state of their breeding has been disgusting.. not once have I seen a well bred dog waiting for a home.
> 
> ...


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Clueless they are on a mission tonight,use your ignore button,same as me
> I can't be bothered with childish petty posts.


Good idea Thanks


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by shortbackandsides
> I cant see that well bred dogs wouldnt end up in rescues,i can think of many scenarios that could lead to well bred dogs being put into a home.
> 
> OK... if you believe that those poor dogs in rescue centres are well bred and from breeders that care then fine you believe that.


The trouble is Bee... these people don't know... they just assume and try to base an opinion around assumptions. They don't understand that those who feel so passionately against indiscriminate breeding do so because they see it and are the ones that end up picking up the pieces.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Blimey - nothing changes round here does it? :Yawn:


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> bee112 said:
> 
> 
> > OK... if you believe that those poor dogs in rescue centres are well bred and from breeders that care then fine you believe that.
> ...


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> Blimey - nothing changes round here does it? :Yawn:


where have u been hiding??


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

You defo will not get Well bred, health tested, affixed, pedigree papered, KC reg dog in a rescue IMO from a responsible Breeder.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> how can u tell if the dog in rescue is from an responsible or irresponsible breeder....im only curious


From the paperwork.. and the if no paperwork, but the general confirmation/quality of the dog.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

Been mega busy churning the portraits out for Christmas!!

Anyway carry on ladies, I wont be taking part in this one but its good to watch...


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

louise5031 said:


> Been mega busy churning the portraits out for Christmas!!
> 
> Anyway carry on ladies, I wont be taking part in this one but its good to watch...


Haha You are the sensible one LOL


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> You defo will not get Well bred, health tested, affixed, pedigree papered, KC reg dog in a rescue IMO from a responsible Breeder.


rubbishrrr:


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

clueless said:


> Now why post a reply like this Janice!!! You are a member who condones sarcastic postsa nd automatically posts BULLY





clueless said:


> Well maybe Janice should be told that





sallyanne said:


> Clueless they are on a mission tonight,use your ignore button,same as me
> I can't be bothered with childish petty posts.


*now how suprised am i?? NOT! same few out in their numbers...
so its ok to slate me off, but nobody can say ANYTHING angainst the GANG..
all i can say is, grow up and get a life...just waiting for the 3rd memeber to have her say, and well have a hat trick...:mad2:ut:*


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *now how suprised am i?? NOT! same few out in their numbers...
> so its ok to slate me off, but nobody can say ANYTHING angainst the GANG..
> all i can say is, grow up and get a life...just waiting for the 3rd memeber to have her say, and well have a hat trick...:mad2:ut:*


Janice look back your own posts. The kettle calling the pot comes to mind


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> rubbishrrr:


Oh Have you got a nice well bred Pedigree from rescue then Please post a piccie Thanks


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *now how suprised am i?? NOT! same few out in their numbers...
> so its ok to slate me off, but nobody can say ANYTHING angainst the GANG..
> all i can say is, grow up and get a life...just waiting for the 3rd memeber to have her say, and well have a hat trick...:mad2:ut:*


Dont let them get the better of you....thank god your'e not a Newbie, then they would scare you away.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Oh Have you got a nice well bred Pedigree from rescue then Please post a piccie Thanks


Thought you didn't like sarcasm?


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> so what happens if someone buys a registered dog from a responsible breeder and a couple of years down the line,due to family problems cant keep it anymore and hands dog into rescue minus papers?if someone doesnt want to try and sell it,this would be a easy option,they may not want to contact breeder,or they could sell dog on,minus papers,and they could give up in the future,i refuse to believe that no responsibly bred dog could end up in rescue.


Firstly, you have to remember that a responsible breeder vets their puppy owners carefully - if anyone thinks it can be difficult to get a rescue because they do not fulfil the criteria, then let me tell you, it can be just as difficult from a reputable breeder. They will have a contract drawn up that requires them to contact the breeder if they can no longer keep the dog... although many breeders stay in touch with owners throughout the dogs life, make themselves approachable so the first person the owner would turn to is the breeder.

Your comments on easy options, selling dogs on... all indicate easy come, easy go ownership.... these people are likely to have been weaned out by a responsible breed and refused a puppy. Soooo.. they will have gone to a breeder who either doesn't care who they sell to, or cares, but doesn't have the knowledge to assess puppy owners.



> i refuse to believe that no responsibly bred dog could end up in rescue.


Well, you can refuse to believe it if you want, but you have no argument / debate when you are stating a situation that does not occur in fact.::bored:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Thought you didn't like sarcasm?


No Its a sense of humour, took your advice LOL lol LOL See


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> Oh Have you got a nice well bred Pedigree from rescue then Please post a piccie Thanks


No but im not ignorant with my head in the sandsituations happen,contacts lost,papers lost,pets change hands,dogs end up in homes regardless of breedingcan you honestly say you know where everyone of your pups are now?are you in contact with them all?


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> No Its a sense of humour, took your advice LOL lol LOL See


Oh so it's ok for you to have a sense of humour but no-one else??? Im thinking double standards here.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> No but im not ignorant with my head in the sandsituations happen,contacts lost,papers lost,pets change hands,dogs end up in homes regardless of breedingcan you honestly say you know where everyone of your pups are now?are you in contact with them all?


I have never lost contact with any of my pups owners Thanks. I have taken 1 dog back due to change in circumstances, so yes\ circumstances do happen I am in agreement with that but Responsible Breeders would wish their breeding back not to rescue


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Oh so it's ok for you to have a sense of humour but no-one else??? Im thinking double standards here.


Oh now come on What do you want from me. I have taken on board your comment and got myself a sense of humour now Have I Not??
No double standards in it , if I did not have said humour before, you trying to confuse me LOL LOL


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> No but im not ignorant


Really - so just how much experience do you have working in rescue, seeing the dogs that come in etc, to make the judgements that you do?


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Oh now come on What do you want from me. I have taken on board your comment and got myself a sense of humour now Have I Not??
> No double standards in it , if I did not have said humour before, you trying to confuse me LOL LOL


Well if that's the case we shouldn't see you jumping down anyones throat for having a sense of humour in the future then, will we?
Just my opinion but it's not a crime to lighten things up especially when things are getting heated. ....see, im even smiling.


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Really - so just how much experience do you have working in rescue, seeing the dogs that come in etc, to make the judgements that you do?


common sense:ciappa::ciappa:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

FREE SPIRIT said:


> Well if that's the case we shouldn't see you jumping down anyones throat for having a sense of humour in the future then, will we?
> Just my opinion but it's not a crime to lighten things up especially when things are getting heated. ....see, im even smiling.


Of course not although obviously saracasm is easily misunderstood as you had to jump down my throat on my sense of humour post. My smilie's are broke so LOL Smile on face here


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> I have never lost contact with any of my pups owners Thanks. I have taken 1 dog back due to change in circumstances, so yes\ circumstances do happen I am in agreement with that but Responsible Breeders would wish their breeding back not to rescue


your lucky then,i dont despute that good breeders would want their dogs back simply stating that it may be not that simple.After all that would be based on the owners being the genuine people they were thought to be,and we all know people arent always what they seem.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> The trouble is Bee... these people don't know... they just assume and try to base an opinion around assumptions..


Thats an really ignorant statemant as i dont base my opinions on assumptions.



Dundee said:


> From the paperwork.. and the if no paperwork, but the general confirmation/quality of the dog.


Thats what i call guessing if a dog came from a byb or responsible breeder



clueless said:


> You defo will not get Well bred, health tested, affixed, pedigree papered, KC reg dog in a rescue IMO from a responsible Breeder.


Just as well its just an opinion, as i know for fact its different.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> your lucky then,i dont despute that good breeders would want their dogs back simply stating that it may be not that simple.After all that would be based on the owners being the genuine people they were thought to be,and we all know people arent always what they seem.


I always grill future owners and they are usually on my waiting list for a long time so maybe its not down to luck but down to responsibility once again. I also appear at their houses whenever I feel like it unannounced even although I have trust in them from the beginning. Do you breed or Show?????


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

clueless said:


> Of course not although obviously saracasm is easily misunderstood as you had to jump down my throat on my sense of humour post. My smilie's are broke so LOL Smile on face here


Fair play....i take on board what you say about sarcasm or humour being misunderstood especially when it's in writing. My smilies are working fine though....lol...


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

clueless said:


> I always grill future owners and they are usually on my waiting list for a long time so maybe its not down to luck but down to responsibility once again. Do you breed or Show?????


do you think women would intentionly marry paedophiles/rapists,no,they look and act normal...perhaps your in the wrong job,csi or fbi maybe better suited!:001_tt2:


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> common sense


Assumptions you mean... so these debates you're putting forward have no basis whatsoever in fact... I'd say it's not common sense but NO sense and means you have no back up for your comments.. Well, now I know, I shan't waste my time replying..  ut:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Just as well its just an opinion, as i know for fact its different.[/QUOTE]
I would be interested to know where you got your FACT from!!Any links with good well bred , health tested Pedigree dogs up for adoption


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Assumptions you mean... so these debates you're putting forward have no basis whatsoever in fact... I'd say it's not common sense but NO sense and means you have no back up for your comments.. Well, now I know, I shan't waste my time replying..  ut:


someones getting tired and grouchy.........


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

clueless said:


> Just as well its just an opinion, as i know for fact its different.


I would be interested to know where you got your FACT from!!Any links with good well bred , health tested Pedigree dogs up for adoption[/QUOTE]

I dont look for facts on the internet, so sorry to disappoint.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2008)

I am tired, need a pee, and need to give bubba last bottle but this thread is too good,, lol


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Dundee
> The trouble is Bee... these people don't know... they just assume and try to base an opinion around assumptions..
> 
> Thats an really ignorant statemant as i dont base my opinions on assumptions.


I wasn't referring to you... I'm embarrassed to say that I can't remember reading your post, however, I will now rectify that.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Dundee
> From the paperwork.. and the if no paperwork, but the general confirmation/quality of the dog.
> 
> Thats what i call guessing if a dog came from a byb or responsible breeder


Paperwork will list the breeder - and believe me, if we had any quality labs coming through rescue they would be instantly recognisable...when compared to the ones that do come through. And actually, more than purebred labs, we probably have numerically more lab crosses.

The fact remains that responsible breeders are not responsible for the rescue problem - even if one or two slip through the net... it is byb breeders, puppy farmers and indiscriminate pet breeding that causes the problems.


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

shortbackandsides said:


> do you think women would intentionly marry paedophiles/rapists,no,they look and act normal...perhaps your in the wrong job,csi or fbi maybe better suited!:001_tt2:


oH Its a good job Freespirit taight me a sense of humour or I would have thought that was sarcasm LOL They IMO would not intentionally marry them (although for the life of me I do not know why this has to do with rescues) but they eventually find out and leave Do they not!!! so could apply that to a breeder who has done done their checking on their sold pups. Find out anything different from when sold---sort it out---do not klet rescue sort the problem. A responsible breeder is there for the pups they bred all of their lives


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## shortbackandsides (Aug 28, 2008)

nite nite all:Yawn::closedeyes:


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Yeah goodnight from me too, gotta go wet my whiskers lol


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Went back and read your posts and would entirely agree with this.



> Thats why i believe all dogs should be marked or microchipped by the breeders and the rescue should inform then the breeder about their dogs having end up in the rescue.


Interestingly, it is a requirement of the KC Accredited Breeder that puppies are permanently identified, by microchip, tattoo or DNA test.


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*the fact of the matter is this...good breeders or not, some well bred dogs WILL end up in rescue centres as well as crossbreeds...and the fact that most pedigree dogs have special rescue centres , ie for specific breeds speaks volumes.:Yawn:*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

I for one will say this last thing and then head to bed too 

The majority is byb dogs in rescues BUT there are dogs from responsible breeders in rescue too and its not the breeders fault, its the owner who is too fine to admit to failure and prefers to dump the dog than admitting that the person people believed he/she is, isnt the truth.
U can know someone for as long as u wish, but u will never know for sure whats going on behind closed doors!

And its mostly the ones who u think they would never do that, and they never do because they dump them and instead of going back to the breeder with admitting to failure.

Good Night All :Yawn:


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## clueless (May 26, 2008)

Been working on my smilies and Thabnk Goodness got them working:Yawn::Yawn::Yawn:


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

all dogs are crossbreeds.dogs of today were created by humans for there own satisfaction.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Dundee said:


> I wasn't referring to you... I'm embarrassed to say that I can't remember reading your post, however, I will now rectify that.
> 
> Paperwork will list the breeder - and believe me, if we had any quality labs coming through rescue they would be instantly recognisable...when compared to the ones that do come through. And actually, more than purebred labs, we probably have numerically more lab crosses.
> 
> The fact remains that responsible breeders are not responsible for the rescue problem - even if one or two slip through the net... it is byb breeders, puppy farmers and indiscriminate pet breeding that causes the problems.


I agree with this,
Have a look on a few rescue websites and then tell me the SBT's there are well bred,most resemble nothing like the breed.
I'm not going to say dogs from responsible breeders don't go through rescue,a handful may be do go through rescue.

Until we regulate breeding we will always have a rescue crisis,the majority of dogs going through the rescue system are from BYB and PF's.

If I could have found a well bred,health tested KC Reg dog in rescue then we would have considered one,but the fact remains,you will not get this from a rescue.
If they do go into rescue with papers the first port of call for rescues is to contact the breeder,usually then the breeder will arrange to collect the dog.
Rescues also never home a rescue with the paperwork,only adoption papers.

I have taken a dog back I bred,I do spot checks unannounced,my puppy owners are more than welcoming and are happy to see us.

Too many dogs from all breeds are been bred,but if we stop the good reputable breeders then all that does is encourage more and more BYB and PF's to keep breeding.

Legislation and Education is needed.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> dogs of today were created by humans for there own satisfaction.


They were created for a purpose.... and some still are... guide dog, some working dogs etc. I don't have a problem with that - these breeders have aim in mind. But to deliberately breed crossbreeds for no other reason than to have puppies, especially those who then call them fancy names as a selling point is irresponsible. There are plenty of cross breeds produced from accidental litters, and from those litters that are being bred with a purpose in mind to require more from general pet cross breeding.

To be honest, if everyone who wanted a litter from their precious pet could be guaranteed one puppy that they would keep, then provided all relevant health tests were done, I wouldn't have a problem. Not my thing, but if they keep the pup for themselves, then no harm is done. It's all the other puppies in the litter that have to found homes when there are not enough homes for all the dogs being bred already that causes the problems.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

Just one other point. Someone who wants to breed a crossbreed because they like them is under an illusion...... Purebreeds breed to type... they all have similar characteristics, similar confirmation etc.. that is why people buy them, because the are buying a certain type of dog. With cross breeds there is no way of knowing how they will turn out, either physically or personality wise. Thus the assumption that because you had a certain cross breed in the past, having another one will resemble it is flawed. It could actually bear absolutely no resemblemance whatsover. So a litter that was not what the breeder wanted or expected is born...


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Dundee said:


> They were created for a purpose.... and some still are... guide dog, some working dogs etc. I don't have a problem with that - these breeders have aim in mind. But to deliberately breed crossbreeds for no other reason than to have puppies, especially those who then call them fancy names as a selling point is irresponsible. There are plenty of cross breeds produced from accidental litters, and from those litters that are being bred with a purpose in mind to require more from general pet cross breeding.
> 
> To be honest, if everyone who wanted a litter from their precious pet could be guaranteed one puppy that they would keep, then provided all relevant health tests were done, I wouldn't have a problem. Not my thing, but if they keep the pup for themselves, then no harm is done. It's all the other puppies in the litter that have to found homes when there are not enough homes for all the dogs being bred already that causes the problems.


yes they were created fora purpose to please humans


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> yes they were created fora purpose to please humans


More specifically to do a job... there were certain requirements so these qualities were bred for - as indeed, existing crosses are bred. Guide dogs use first crosses lab/golden because goldens are slightly taller than labs and they are more sensitive. They are bred for a purpose, not just to please humans.
All breeds created in the past were bred for a purpose, in most cases a for a job of work.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Dundee said:


> More specifically to do a job... there were certain requirements so these qualities were bred for - as indeed, existing crosses are bred. Guide dogs use first crosses lab/golden because goldens are slightly taller than labs and they are more sensitive. They are bred for a purpose, not just to please humans.
> All breeds created in the past were bred for a purpose, in most cases a for a job of work.


a small amount are bred for a reason most are bred for human pleasure.they are all cross breeds and humans have created all problems in dogs


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Dundee said:


> More specifically to do a job... there were certain requirements so these qualities were bred for - as indeed, existing crosses are bred. Guide dogs use first crosses lab/golden because goldens are slightly taller than labs and they are more sensitive. They are bred for a purpose, not just to please humans.
> All breeds created in the past were bred for a purpose, in most cases a for a job of work.


*ok so we bred dogs for a reason,because they had a job to do...but that cant be said of the majority of dogs today..so should we now only breed dogs if they have a job to do?if not whats the diffeence?*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> More specifically to do a job... there were certain requirements so these qualities were bred for - as indeed, existing crosses are bred. Guide dogs use first crosses lab/golden because goldens are slightly taller than labs and they are more sensitive. They are bred for a purpose, not just to please humans.
> All breeds created in the past were bred for a purpose, in most cases a for a job of work.


Most dogs were bred for a purpose a long long time ago but today most pedigree dogs are only bred for human satisfaction and taste.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *ok so we bred dogs for a reason,because they had a job to do...but that cant be said of the majority of dogs today..so should we now only breed dogs if they have a job to do?if not whats the diffeence?*


well said i agree


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## LittleMissSunshine (Aug 31, 2008)

I agree with a few instances of x breeding, I have a sprocker who came from a reputable breeder. She is the perfect mix of Cocker and Springer. I don'tnhowever agree with people who breed willynilly. Ok, accidents may happen but breeding just for the financial reward is just plain wrong.
I now have lady who is pure cocker, KC reg and am intending on breeding her. I hav never bred dogs before but nobody is born a breeder. I have a couple of years to learn all ther is to know, I will do my homework about breeding and I won't go into it until I am fully knowledgable and will make a responsible breeder. I also wil not Cross Breed her. Why mess with something as beautiful as a golden cocker. Having said that I had Poppy Spayed as I wasn't comfortable creating another branch of her already cross bred tree. Her parents were KC reg (Mum Springer, Dad Cocker) I do not know the implications of breeding further down the line.

I hope I've made some sort of sence. I think what I'm trying to say is that there is a time and a place for Cross Breeding and it should definitely be monitored closely by some sort of body!


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

borderer said:


> a small amount are bred for a reason most are bred for human pleasure.they are all cross breeds and humans have created all problems in dogs


Maybe and we always go back to the fact that all dogs are crossbreeds,yes true,but again they were bred with thought and care was taken to only breed from a specific type to create the breeds.
Culling puppies was a common practice back then and we certainly didn't have a rescue crisis that we are seeing today.

To many people breed without considering the implications,too many breed without care and consideration for the dogs and any puppies produced.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

if dogs had been monitered years ago you would not have all these fancy breeds and there problems


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*some of the dogs that are STILL bred "well" look like total misfits and unnatural, so why still breed them?i wont name breeds as i dont wont to offend.*


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

borderer said:


> if dogs had been monitered years ago you would not have all these fancy breeds and there problems


Exactly!!

And as someone has said, pups have been culled for many years because they do not meet the 'look' or 'breed standard'.

maybe that is why there are more dogs in rescue as well.


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## LittleMissSunshine (Aug 31, 2008)

I agree. not to mention the health probs that come with that!


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

hannahbanana129 said:


> I agree with a few instances of x breeding, I have a sprocker who came from a reputable breeder. She is the perfect mix of Cocker and Springer. I don'tnhowever agree with people who breed willynilly. Ok, accidents may happen but breeding just for the financial reward is just plain wrong.
> I now have lady who is pure cocker, KC reg and am intending on breeding her. I hav never bred dogs before but nobody is born a breeder. I have a couple of years to learn all ther is to know, I will do my homework about breeding and I won't go into it until I am fully knowledgable and will make a responsible breeder. I also wil not Cross Breed her. Why mess with something as beautiful as a golden cocker. Having said that I had Poppy Spayed as I wasn't comfortable creating another branch of her already cross bred tree. Her parents were KC reg (Mum Springer, Dad Cocker) I do not know the implications of breeding further down the line.
> 
> I hope I've made some sort of sence. I think what I'm trying to say is that there is a time and a place for Cross Breeding and it should definitely be monitored closely by some sort of body!


Well done you,It's a pity more people don't take your attitude, and learn first,instead of ploughing in with both feet first and their eyes tightly shut.

Yes there is a time and place for crossbreeding and hopefully if and when the KC get the legislation hopefully this will be closey monitored,under strict rules and regulations and under a stringent code of ethics.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

what i was asking myself for a longer time why do responsible breeders continue breeding dogs with health issues due to the breed standard when they so concerned for the dogs health?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> what i was asking myself for a longer time why do responsible breeders continue breeding dogs with health issues due to the breed standard when they so concerned for the dogs health?


Good breeders breed away from issues found in breeds.This why they spend years researching lines before hand.

My breed has issues,we have DNA tests available for two of the conditions L2/HC.
PHPV is been researched and hopefully we will have a DNA test soon for that.
At the moment we only have Unaffected or Affected results,needless to say good breeders only breed from L2/HC PHPV/PPSC Clear and unaffected dogs.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Good breeders breed away from issues found in breeds.This why they spend years researching lines before hand.
> 
> My breed has issues,we have DNA tests available for two of the conditions L2/HC.
> PHPV is been researched and hopefully we will have a DNA test soon for that.
> At the moment we only have Unaffected or Affected results,needless to say good breeders only breed from L2/HC PHPV/PPSC Clear and unaffected dogs.


all coused by humans


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## LittleMissSunshine (Aug 31, 2008)

See, I may not know about all these things now but I will do before I enter the world of Breeding. There should definitely be tighter controls and a strick code of eithcs.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Good breeders breed away from issues found in breeds.This why they spend years researching lines before hand.
> 
> My breed has issues,we have DNA tests available for two of the conditions L2/HC.
> PHPV is been researched and hopefully we will have a DNA test soon for that.
> At the moment we only have Unaffected or Affected results,needless to say good breeders only breed from L2/HC PHPV/PPSC Clear and unaffected dogs.


No, im not talking about the health issues u can test for.

I mean the health issues the looks of the dog brings with it. I also dont want to name specific dogs, but there are plenty who suffer because of the breed standard. 
So my question is, why breed them knowingly knowing the dog suffer or has a high risk to suffer due to the breed standard?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> No, im not talking about the health issues u can test for.
> 
> I mean the health issues the looks of the dog brings with it. I also dont want to name specific dogs, but there are plenty who suffer because of the breed standard.
> So my question is, why breed them knowingly knowing the dog suffer or has a high risk to suffer due to the breed standard?


*i have asked this question myself, and i'm afraid NOBODY can come up with an answer that will justify it in my mind..but no doubt there will be some excuse.
and if your thinking of the same breeds as me, i think its nothing short of outright cruelty.*


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

I agree Janice and I also think it is cruel to cull pups because they are not the right colour or look the part.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

mrsdusty said:


> I agree Janice and I also think it is cruel to cull pups because they are not the right colour or look the part.


there are also "responsible" breeders who cull puppies if they have too many and cant sell them


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> there are also "responsible" breeders who cull puppies if they have too many and cant sell them


*its hard to believe that in this day and age such practices still go on..what a sad state of affairs..*


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> No, im not talking about the health issues u can test for.
> 
> I mean the health issues the looks of the dog brings with it. I also dont want to name specific dogs, but there are plenty who suffer because of the breed standard.
> So my question is, why breed them knowingly knowing the dog suffer or has a high risk to suffer due to the breed standard?


Like Epilepsy which can be Life threatening for some breeds,including the NI.
I would also like to know why breeding from these dogs is still continuing.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Like Epilepsy which can be Life threatening for some breeds,including the NI.
> I would also like to know why breeding from these dogs is still continuing.


And thats why im loosing my respect for u as a breeder sallyanne as u never do answer the really important questions , instead u always try to backfire which i told u before will not work with me!

Answer the question please why do responsible breeders continue breeding knowing that the breed standard causes the dog suffering!


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> And thats why im loosing my respect for u as a breeder sallyanne as u never do answer the really important questions , instead u always try to backfire which i told u before will not work with me!
> 
> Answer the question please why do responsible breeders continue breeding knowing that the breed standard causes the dog suffering!


ther has been allot of suffering to get the breed that you have


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

borderer said:


> ther has been allot of suffering to get the breed that you have


*which breed?*


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

borderer said:


> ther has been allot of suffering to get the breed that you have


I guess sadly that counts for most of the breeds excisting today :thumbdown:


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> And thats why im loosing my respect for u as a breeder sallyanne as u never do answer the really important questions , instead u always try to backfire which i told u before will not work with me!
> 
> Answer the question please why do responsible breeders continue breeding knowing that the breed standard causes the dog suffering!


Oh right so as along as we keep the NI out of it,that fine is it.
This breed along with others has problems,problems that ARE life threatening and they are still been bred from.
You can't have it both ways,you knock others for continuing breeding a certain breed,which is detrimental to the health and welfare of the dogs/breed ,yet refuse to accept there are breeders breeding the NI that are registered with the NIS which are doing the same.

Your question I believe was answered on a different thread by a breeder of said breed you dislike.
So why are breeders continuing to breed from the NI with such life threatening conditions ?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

ok it is time to chill out cool down go for awalk


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

_posted in error so deleted_


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Oh right so as along as we keep the NI out of it,that fine is it.
> This breed along with others has problems,problems that ARE life threatening and they are still been bred from.
> You can't have it both ways,you knock others for continuing breeding a certain breed,which is detrimental to the health and welfare of the dogs/breed ,yet refuse to accept there are breeders breeding the NI that are registered with the NIS which are doing the same.
> 
> ...


and u still havent answered the question 

U right that there are always two sides and ur right that sadly there are bad ni breeders too but to use this breed (because i own one) for making a turn and trying not to answer my question is a low move imo


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> there are also "responsible" breeders who cull puppies if they have too many and cant sell them


That is a contradiction in terms. Any *responsible* breeder will ensure that he/she has homes waiting for any pups that the breeder cannot keep themselves before breeding. A *responsible* breeder will never breed on the "off chance" that he/she may be able to sell the unwanted pups. A *responsible* breeder of high quality pups will usually have a waiting list of homechecked people waiting for the right pup.
No *responsible* breeder would ever cull puppies (unless for serious medical reasons and on veterinary advice).
You need to distinguish between people who call themselves responsible breeders and those who actually are.

Mick


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> if dogs had been monitered years ago you would not have all these fancy breeds and there problems


LOL - and if people knew the effects of smoking years ago, then it would have been banned years ago... and if..... and if...

It's pointless going on about what happened decades and even centuries ago. None of use were around or responsible for that. We ARE (or should be) responsible for what happens now because the effects of what we do now will effect the future.


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> You need to distinguish between people who call themselves responsible breeder and those who actually are


Well said


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

raindog said:


> That is a contradiction in terms. Any *responsible* breeder will ensure that he/she has homes waiting for any pups that the breeder cannot keep themselves before breeding. A *responsible* breeder will never breed on the "off chance" that he/she may be able to sell the unwanted pups. A *responsible* breeder of high quality pups will usually have a waiting list of homechecked people waiting for the right pup.
> No *responsible* breeder would ever cull puppies (unless for serious medical reasons and on veterinary advice).
> You need to distinguish between people who call themselves responsible breeder and those who actually are.
> 
> Mick


Thanks raindog for the info!  
I sure will see this breeders from now on which would put healthy pups too sleep because they have too many left (for whatever reason) and cant sell them as not responsible breeders!


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

If dogs are in such a state health wise now due to human error then maybe that means it is our duty to put it right..

By breeding only from Health checked patants and good blood lines to improve breeds and not create more health problems for financial gain... how can people not see that? Now surely THAT'S just common sense :mad2:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

bee112 said:


> If dogs are in such a state health wise now due to human error then maybe that means it is our duty to put it right..
> 
> By breeding only from Health checked patants and good blood lines to improve breeds and not create more health problems for financial gain... how can people not see that? Now surely THAT'S just common sense :mad2:


Bee, ur absolutely right there!
But what is with the dogs which suffer becasue of the way they look like....and this cant be tested for.

Again i try to ask anyone who has an answer....why continue breeding them if the looks causes them pain?


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

bee112 said:


> By breeding only from Health checked patants and good blood lines to improve breeds and not create more health problems for financial gain... how can people not see that? Now surely THAT'S just common sense :mad2:


Unfortunately you have answered your own question. Some people will do anything to make a bob or two, and will remain willfully blind to what is staring everyone else in the face. They have a financial filter in their brain -_ "If a health issue reduces my income it is a lie. If it enhances my income it is the truth."_

Mickut:


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## Dundee (Oct 20, 2008)

> Bee, ur absolutely right there!
> But what is with the dogs which suffer becasue of the way they look like....and this cant be tested for.
> 
> Again i try to ask anyone who has an answer....why continue breeding them if the looks causes them pain


I guess that answer has to come from someone who owns/breeds this breed of dog. TBH, I don't think there are that many breeds that are so exaggerated that they have led to health problems due to confirmation and exaggerated features. Personally, I hate it, and think it wrong, but I don't own a breed of dog that has health problems due to exaggerated features.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

Dundee said:


> Personally, I hate it, and think it wrong, but I don't own a breed of dog that has health problems due to exaggerated features.


At least u the first one who admitts its wrong!  Hat off to u 

There are sadly a few breeds which suffer and we all know its wrong but some people like to turn this fact down


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> and u still havent answered the question
> 
> U right that there are always two sides and ur right that sadly there are bad ni breeders too but to use this breed (because i own one) for making a turn and trying not to answer my question is a low move imo


No you stated that breeders are continuing to breed from dogs with life threatening conditions and want to know why ? I mentioned the NI because this is happening within that breed too and it is a fact.
Ask the breeders,I am not all that familar with the breeds concerned,but we did this on a different thread,did we not ?
Maybe you could start with the NI and ask why ?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Dundee said:


> I guess that answer has to come from someone who owns/breeds this breed of dog. TBH, I don't think there are that many breeds that are so exaggerated that they have led to health problems due to confirmation and exaggerated features. Personally, I hate it, and think it wrong, but I don't own a breed of dog that has health problems due to exaggerated features.


We covered this on a different thread,a breeder of said breed answered questions.
I know which breeds are been referred to but as I stated I am not that familar with them,so obviously the questions need to be directed at breeders with those breeds.


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## Chris1 (Oct 3, 2008)

I have followed this post with interest. I do not post very much now, because the same people, who have obvious predudices against x breeds,
devalue them time after time, and it angers me.
Yes, there will always be a demand for cross breeds, especially now when 
some pedigree breeds have so many problems from interbreeding to create the perfect "breed standard".
When I was small, going back quite a while, all my friends and neighbours had mongrels. It was the norm, and what healthy, happy little dogs they were, all living to a good age. And in those days, even in London, they usualy took themselves out out and appeared like magic in time for dinner.
I do agree that health tests are important, and my dog comes from health tested parents even though she is "only a x breed ". But no one can guarantee that even after health tests, problems will not develop, as other things such as too much excersise when pups, can cause displasia in itself.
In my opinion, and I have owned pedigree and crosses in my time, a cross or a mongrel is equally as wonderful as a pure bred, unless you want to show it of course. And they make valued family pets.
Thankyou, to those who defend our crosses on this forum. You know who you are. Please continue to do so. You have my respect.
Chris:001_wub:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> No you stated that breeders are continuing to breed from dogs with life threatening conditions and want to know why ? I mentioned the NI because this is happening within that breed too and it is a fact.


Could u point out to me the post where i used the word life threatening conditions? As i dont remember ever saying this? 

Again...i mean suffering because of the way they look like!



sallyanne said:


> Ask the breeders,I am not all that familar with the breeds concerned,but we did this on a different thread,did we not ?


Yes, we did, and my question hasnt been answered there as well 



sallyanne said:


> Maybe you could start with the NI and ask why ?


And again lol Doesnt work with me :001_tt2:
I am not pointing out certain breeds, as im talking about all the breeds affected by the looks. But if u like to point out a certain breed, then feel free to do so 
What attribute of the looks of the inuit actually causes it suffering?
And im not talking about epilepsy....only the looks!


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Chris1 said:


> I have followed this post with interest. I do not post very much now, because the same people, who have obvious predudices against x breeds,
> devalue them time after time, and it angers me.
> Yes, there will always be a demand for cross breeds, especially now when
> some pedigree breeds have so many problems from interbreeding to create the perfect "breed standard".
> ...


I have to agree with you....i see absolutely nothing wrong with cross breeds. Ive had them in the past and grew up with them as well as Pedigree dogs. So long as the dogs are happy and healthy that is the important thing. Ive seen and know of plenty of cross breeds that are great family pets and live a long and healthy life.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> Could u point out to me the post where i used the word life threatening conditions? As i dont remember ever saying this?
> 
> Again...i mean suffering because of the way they look like!
> 
> ...


The conformation causes cow hocks in some of the NI's,which affects movement and exercise.Surely that's not healthy ?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

This post from this thread,
http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/15638-ok-now-i-need-ask-question-9.html
Ok, only just read this thread, so my reply is perhaps overdue and I may not answer all questions. I am a pug owner, breederand exhibitor.

We do NOT breed pugs so they can not breathe. If a pug should have any problems with breathing then they should NOT be bred from, end of story. Pugs do sometimes snore, not as much as people think they do and not all of them, but I also snore and I certainly don't think I can't breathe! We do NOT look for the flatest faces/muzzles in the ring. Pugs with any of the forementioned health problems on this thread must NOT be bred from. Pug Dog Encephalitis has to my knowledge been virtually eliminated from this country.

I bought an 18 month old girl, from completely different lines to my own, had full and extensive checks and tests done on her at the time. All was ok. I mated her the other day and then had to take her into the vets for something completely unrelated, I then was shocked to find out she had developed something from that list, probably by damage rather than anything else as it is supposed to be there from birth. So without thinking I had a misalliance injection course done (next day after mating, not when pups were implanted or anything) because whether damage or not I will NOT breed a dog with a health problem.

Also cesars are not that common in pugs. Mine self-whelp. As for reverse sneezing, mine did it once, when they had kennel cough, but then so did my cocker. If I honestly ever thought that any of my pugs had any problems being and acting like an everyday dog then I wouldn't breed them. They go on long walks and runs through the woodland, they play all day in the sun, they chase balls and frisbies and bring them back. I've even seen a pug agility team.

When breeders put the very worst things that could happen in a pug, did you ever stop to wonder if it's not to put off people who see them as a fashion accessory or think breeding them will make them money? If someone enquires about breeding pugs I give them a worst case scenario they quite often then rethink.

I'm not saying pugs don't have their problems, but the problems are not as common as people seem to think. I breed pugs because I find them hardy, fit, healthy and have the most wonderful temperaments. I like dogs you can play with, run with, give a good hug without worrying you'll break them and still have them sleep on your lap while you watch tv.

Sorry if this post goes on a bit, just trying to answer all the questions I can remember from the thread.

Did this not answer your questions ?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> And again lol Doesnt work with me :001_tt2:


That made me chuckle.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> I am not pointing out certain breeds, as im talking about all the breeds affected by the looks. What attribute of the looks of the inuit actually causes it suffering?
> And im not talking about epilepsy....only the looks!


Why do you want to differentiate between problems caused by breeding for looks, and other health problems caused by bad breeding? How is one worse than another?
Personally, I am not a fan of (for example) breeds with breathing problems as a result of breeding for an exaggerated "look". Neither am I a fan of breeds with dreadful health issues as a result of irresponsible breeding by those who purport to be the guardians of the breed.

Inbred health problems should be stopped whether they are a result of breeding for "looks" or for anything else.

Mick


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> The conformation causes cow hocks in some of the NI's,which affects movement and exercise.Surely that's not healthy ?


At least u have been honest and used the word some 
I have seen alot of northern inuits since i got maya and not one of them had cow hocks!
And u as a breeder should know that cow hocks affect other dog breeds as well.

And also cow hocks isnt a breed standard  As i am not talking about the bad breeders causing such things....im referring to the responsible breeders breeding dogs with an unhealthy pain causing breed standard.

How come u havent pointed out the post of mine about the life threatening conditions? As i would like this cleared that i never said that! 
Thank u


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

raindog said:


> Why do you want to differentiate between problems caused by breeding for looks, and other health problems caused by bad breeding? How is one worse than another?
> Personally, I am not a fan of (for example) breeds with breathing problems as a result of breeding for an exaggerated "look". Neither am I a fan of breeds with dreadful health issues as a result of irresponsible breeding by those who purport to be the guardians of the breed.
> 
> Inbred health problems should be stopped whether they are a result of breeding for "looks" or for anything else.
> ...


Totally agree :thumbup1:


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

raindog said:


> Why do you want to differentiate between problems caused by breeding for looks, and other health problems caused by bad breeding?
> 
> Mick


Why not? 

I am curious thats why


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

raindog said:


> Personally, I am not a fan of (for example) breeds with breathing problems as a result of breeding for an exaggerated "look".
> 
> Mick


Do u agree then that breeding dogs to such an unhealthy breed standard is wrong?


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Did this not answer your questions ?


no :nono:

How come the kc has to go through all the breed standards if they dont cause any problems?


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> no :nono:
> 
> How come the kc has to go through all the breed standards if they dont cause any problems?


Ask them,I can do many things but can't second guess what the KC will and won't do or why they do it.


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

It depends which breed standards you are referring to. Some breeds, like GSDs seem to have been changed immensely irrespectively of the breed standard remaining the same. When I was young, (when Pterodactyls and Mammoths roamed the earth), I worked as a volunteer kennel lad for a lady who bred Alsations (as we called them in those days). Her dogs were big, four-square, healthy beasts. Well coated, with balanced heads and not a cow-hock or a sloping back to be seen - and a temperament to die for. Not only that, but amongst her dogs were two or three who were coming up to the age of 20 (and were still fit, active and healthy). I look at todays German Shepherds and shudder. 
However, the simple answer to your question is yes - if the requirements of a breed standard cause suffering to a breed, then it should be modified accordingly as has happened with Shar Pei for example.

Mick


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Ask them,I can do many things but can't second guess what the KC will and won't do or why they do it.


We all know the answer, dont we :frown2:

Could u pls clear me of the accusation u made that i said something about life threatening conditions?
Thank u in advance 

Also u still havent pointed out any looks related issues because of the breed standard for the northern inuit, which i would be really interested to know :skep:


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Saying that certain breeds have health problems and are in pain because of the breed standard is wrong!!!

FOR EXAMPLE the Bulldog, people assume they are all unhealthy and unable to breathe... I know people who have well bred Bullys and they have no problems breathing what so ever and are in perfectly good health.

I know of another person with a Bulldog from a not so caring breeder and yes she has had health problems.

Now before people start crticising breeds and assuming they are all unhealthy due to breed standard.. please do your research and dont believe everything the media tells you... You clearly dont know the first things about these breeds


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

raindog said:


> It depends which breed standards you are referring to. Some breeds, like GSDs seem to have been changed immensely irrespectively of the breed standard remaining the same. When I was young, (when Pterodactyls and Mammoths roamed the earth), I worked as a volunteer kennel lad for a lady who bred Alsations (as we called them in those days). Her dogs were big, four-square, healthy beasts. Well coated, with balanced heads and not a cow-hock or a sloping back to be seen - and a temperament to die for. Not only that, but amongst her dogs were two or three who were coming up to the age of 20 (and were still fit, active and healthy). I look at todays German Shepherds and shudder.
> *However, the simple answer to your question is yes - if the requirements of a breed standard cause suffering to a breed, then it should be modified accordingly as has happened with Shar Pei for example.*
> 
> Mick


well said :thumbup:

also when we were looking for gsd then we always stayed away from the ones with the sloppy backs!


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

bee112 said:


> Saying that certain breeds have health problems and are in pain because of the breed standard is wrong!!!


Bee, then why did the kc already changed the breed standard of a breed?


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## bee112 (Apr 12, 2008)

Natik said:


> Bee, then why did the kc already changed the breed standard of a breed?


I do not know why the KC have changed breed standards..

All I know is that you cannot say whole breed is unhealthy because of a breed standard set out by the KC...

You cannot just assume all Bulldogs, all Pugs, all NI's are unhealthy...(untill you've at least researched the breed thoroughly) that is just ludicrous


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

bee112 said:


> I do not know why the KC have changed breed standards..
> 
> All I know is that you cannot say whole breed is unhealthy because of a breed standard set out by the KC...
> 
> You cannot just assume all Bulldogs, all Pugs, all NI's are unhealthy... that is just ludicrous


*Bee i'm confused...are you saying that some dogs that are KC reg are not healthy?or have i misread your post?*


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

bee112 said:


> I do not know why the KC have changed breed standards..
> 
> All I know is that you cannot say whole breed is unhealthy because of a breed standard set out by the KC...
> 
> You cannot just assume all Bulldogs, all Pugs, all NI's are unhealthy... that is just ludicrous


well said hun


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> We all know the answer, dont we :frown2:


and the answer is what ?



Natik said:


> Could u pls clear me of the accusation u made that i said something about life threatening conditions?
> Thank u in advance


Life threatening,suffering, pain,what's the difference,the dogs are still suffering,I said


sallyanne said:


> Like Epilepsy which can be Life threatening for some breeds,including the NI.
> I would also like to know why breeding from these dogs is still continuing.


Then I said,


sallyanne said:


> Oh right so as along as we keep the NI out of it,that fine is it.
> This breed along with others has problems,problems that ARE life threatening and they are still been bred from.
> You can't have it both ways,you knock others for continuing breeding a certain breed,which is detrimental to the health and welfare of the dogs/breed ,yet refuse to accept there are breeders breeding the NI that are registered with the NIS which are doing the same.
> 
> ...


It must be this one your referring to,


sallyanne said:


> No you stated that breeders are continuing to breed from dogs with life threatening conditions and want to know why ? I mentioned the NI because this is happening within that breed too and it is a fact.
> Ask the breeders,I am not all that familar with the breeds concerned,but we did this on a different thread,did we not ?
> Maybe you could start with the NI and ask why ?


Dogs that can't breathe properly and move properly because of breathing difficulites is life threatening from my point of view.That's why I added it it,personally I dont see why you have a problem with it 



Natik said:


> Also u still havent pointed out any looks related issues because of the breed standard for the northern inuit, which i would be really interested to know :skep:


Yes I did bred for looks and the conformation suffers,cow hocks for instance.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

bee112 said:


> I do not know why the KC have changed breed standards..
> 
> All I know is that you cannot say whole breed is unhealthy because of a breed standard set out by the KC...
> 
> You cannot just assume all Bulldogs, all Pugs, all NI's are unhealthy... that is just ludicrous


i never said the whole breed is unhealthy  im sure by health testing alot of health issues are getting eliminated.
I said that the breed standard causes the breed suffering, and i guess thats why the kc changes the breed standard.
Compare the old breed standard from the pekingese to the new one and u will see why they changed it 

"Kennel Club changes breeding rules to end cruelty

The tough approach was signalled when breeders of pekinese were told yesterday that the dogs flat faces were no longer acceptable because they cause breathing problems. The problem has arisen because the muzzle has become obsolete through breeding and the flesh that would have naturally covered the dogs muzzle is instead in its throat. Other breeds to face scrutiny will include the Clumber spaniel, bloodhound, bulldog, mastiff, German shepherd, basset hound and St Bernard. "

Kennel Club changes breeding rules to end cruelty - Times Online


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> and the answer is what ?
> 
> Yes I did bred for looks and the conformation suffers,cow hocks for instance.


lol Cow hocks isnt a breed standard :hand: 
I dont think u seem to follow what im trying to say


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> lol Cow hocks isnt a breed standard :hand:
> I dont think u seem to follow what im trying to say


Probably not,
The NI has a breed standard,it was bred to "Look" like a wolf,so this is a dog that was/is bred for looks,it has conformation problems amongest other things,Cow Hocks for instance.



Natik said:


> What attribute of the looks of the inuit actually causes it suffering?
> And im not talking about epilepsy....only the looks!





sallyanne said:


> The conformation causes cow hocks in some of the NI's,which affects movement and exercise.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Probably not,
> The NI has a breed standard,it was bred to "Look" like a wolf,so this is a dog that was/is bred for looks,it has conformation problems amongest other things,Cow Hocks for instance.


 what dog these days isnt bred for looks ? Most of them are bred for looks :confused1:


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> what dog these days isnt bred for looks ? Most of them are bred for looks :confused1:


Lurcher, Working ESS,Working Cocker Spaniel to name but a few


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> Lurcher, Working ESS,Working Cocker Spaniel to name but a few


im talking dogs as pets lol  
of course working dogs are bred for working


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Natik said:


> im talking dogs as pets lol
> of course working dogs are bred for working


But you didn't say that did you you said



Natik said:


> what dog these days isnt bred for looks ? Most of them are bred for looks :confused1:


So I answered as above.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

sallyanne said:


> But you didn't say that did you you said
> 
> So I answered as above.


Thats why i used the word "most of them" 
But next time i will try to keep my wording fairly easy for those who dont understand me :thumbup1:

Anyway, i myself believe that i made my point clear with what i mean 

Housework is calling, so c'ya


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

Natik said:


> what dog these days isnt bred for looks ? Most of them are bred for looks :confused1:


There is a world of difference between someone saying, for example, I am going to carry out this particular mating because both male and female are excellent examples of the breed and will produce puppies which look exactly the way the breed should look; and someone saying, I want to produce a dog which looks like a wolf, therefore I will breed any old northern breed mutts with German Shepherds to see what I get. I'll keep the ones that look most wolflike and flog the rest off as pets.

Mick


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

[QU*OTE=raindog;375283]There is a world of difference between someone saying, for example, I am going to carry out this particular mating because both male and female are excellent examples of the breed and will produce puppies which look exactly the way the breed should look; and someone saying, I want to produce a dog which looks like a wolf, therefore I will breed any old northern breed mutts with German Shepherds to see what I get. I'll keep the ones that look most wolflike and flog the rest off as pets.

Mick[/QUOTE]

*dont a lot of breeders keep the best looking pup?so what was your point?


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> [/B]dont a lot of breeders keep the best looking pup?so what was your point?


Breeders tend to keep the pup which most fits the breed standard - looks are just one aspect of that.

My point was simply that there is a huge difference between (a) trying to produce the best quality puppies of a particular breed; and (b) randomly trying to create a breed which looks like a wolf or a horse or an elephant by crossing similarish breeds with no history (or even any record) of any of the dogs used in the project and no knowledge (or care) of what health issues they might be prone to.

Mick


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*i still cannot understand,if you have 2 healthy dogs, and its YOUR choice to crossbreed, why ppl get so angry..fine its ok being passionate about what you think is the right way,but thats all it is..A PERSONAL view...
i've got my own views on a lot of issues but i dont come on here ramming them down peoples throats..:mad2:*


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *i still cannot understand,if you have 2 healthy dogs, and its YOUR choice to crossbreed, why ppl get so angry..fine its ok being passionate about what you think is the right way,but thats all it is..A PERSONAL view...
> i've got my own views on a lot of issues but i dont come on here ramming them down peoples throats..:mad2:*


And that is why alot of people (mainly newbies) will clear off. This forum is not called Pedigree Pet Forum but with the responses you get from some on here, it may as well be called that. It is a forum for advice on all animals/pets, surely?


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## raindog (Jul 1, 2008)

JANICE199 said:


> *i still cannot understand,if you have 2 healthy dogs, and its YOUR choice to crossbreed, why ppl get so angry:*


Mainly because every single rescue kennel in the country is overwhelmed with dogs whose owners have made that choice.
Of course these are all just personal opinions - that's what a forum is for! Can you imagine how boring it would be if everyone agreed all the time?
Mick


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

raindog said:


> Mainly because every single rescue kennel in the country is overwhelmed with dogs whose owners have made that choice.
> Of course these are all just personal opinions - that's what a forum is for! Can you imagine how boring it would be if everyone agreed all the time?
> Mick


lol...yep i for one would be bored if we all agreed on everything,nothing like a good debate..its how some people go about voicing their oppions.


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## Natik (Mar 9, 2008)

raindog said:


> Breeders tend to keep the pup which most fits the breed standard - looks are just one aspect of that.
> 
> My point was simply that there is a huge difference between (a) trying to produce the best quality puppies of a particular breed; and (b) randomly trying to create a breed which looks like a wolf or a horse or an elephant by crossing similarish breeds with no history (or even any record) of any of the dogs used in the project and no knowledge (or care) of what health issues they might be prone to.
> 
> Mick


Noone of us has any way of changing how a breed was "made".
Alot of pedigree breeds been "made" exact the way u described above and they have the right to be here 

Responsible ni breeders do health test their dogs and of course like in all breeds there are bad breeders who only breed for money.


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## Tasha (Sep 23, 2008)

20 pages on this one lord knows how many on the other and the penny still has not dropped

1. AS RAINDOG SAID KENNELS ARE OVERWHELMED AND A BREEDER NEEDS TO CONSIDER WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF HER PUPPIES END UP WITH NO HOME 

2. BREEDING IS VERY VERY COSTLY WITHOUT COMPLICATIONS

3. GERMAN SHEPARDS AND LABS ARE RIDDLED WITH JOINT ISSUES THAT HAVE A LONGTERM EFFECT ON THE OFF SPRING BREEDERS OF BOTH BREEDS HAVE BEEN WORKING TO REDUCE THE PROBLEMS BY USING HEALTH SCREENS BUT EVEN THAT IS NOT A GUARANTEE BY MIXING THE BREEDS YOU ARE FAR MORE LIKELY (75% ACCORDING TO MY VET A LAB BREEDER) TO PRODUCE DOGS WITH DISABILITIES OR LONG TERM HEALTH ISSUES THAT WILL COST A FORTUNE TO MANAGE SO THEREFORE THAT PUP IS MORE LIKELY TO END UP HOMELESS, UNWANTED AND EUTHANISED 

ALL WE WERE EVER DEBATING WAS THE OP RIGHT TO SELFISHLY PRODUCED DOGS MORE LIKELY THAN NOT WITH HEALTH ISSUES THAT IN THIS CLIMATE SEE THEM BOUNCED FROM SHELTER TO FOSTER HOME TO END UP EUTHANISED BY TRAINEE RSPCA OFFICERS


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

I can 100% accept and agree with people that are angry at crossing breeds for monetry gain, and of course I can see the issues with health problems, unchecked parents etc.

Unfortunately though many people aren't as dog-knowledgable as you lovely people and dont look into all these things - mainly through blind ignorance. When we were going to get a puppy my boyfriend said he preferred cross breeds as thats what he had grown up with. A lot of people I have spoken to down the park are the same. So as much as I can say that (since joining this forum) if *I* was to do it all over again* I* would research thoroughly, pick a pedigree from health tested parents etc etc, I think sadly its unlikely that many others will...

So I have to agree that there will always be a demand for cross breeds. It would be a great place to live in if everything wasnt so consumer driven, but unfortunately some people want something new, different, unusual, fashionable... sadly that includes animals.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2008)

Tasha said:


> BY MIXING THE BREEDS YOU ARE FAR MORE LIKELY (75% ACCORDING TO MY VET A LAB BREEDER) TO PRODUCE DOGS WITH DISABILITIES OR LONG TERM HEALTH ISSUES


So mating a lab with poor hips to a GSD with poor hips is more likely to cause disability than mating two poor hipped labs? Why is that?


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

Tasha said:


> 20 pages on this one lord knows how many on the other and the penny still has not dropped
> 
> 1. AS RAINDOG SAID KENNELS ARE OVERWHELMED AND A BREEDER NEEDS TO CONSIDER WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF HER PUPPIES END UP WITH NO HOME
> 
> ...


*Thats your oppion..mine is different.*


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## tashi (Dec 5, 2007)

OK folks I know you are going to have a gripe but I feel this is just going around in circles I am going to just close it for now check it through and will then reopen it when I get round to it 

At the moment I do not have the time to do it to busy with family probs so I hope you will understand if there are no probs throughout I will reopen it in its entirety but having probs keeping up at the mo 

thanks 

tashi


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