# I know this is the dog section but..



## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

In the cat section there is a thread on cats on harnesses and leads. 

The worry being that is the cat goes out on their own then they could get injured or kill something. 

A couple of posters have compared them to dogs roaming. 

I saw this in the states and thought it odd, but not surprising. 

I have had over 20 cats in my life time and have never heard anything so stupid!

What are your thoughts in that if dogs can't roam then neither should cats???


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## delca1 (Oct 29, 2011)

Never really thought about this before. I was brought up with cats that went in and out whenever and dogs went out on a lead. 
Cats wander everywhere, over fences, trees etc so they are more able to travel safely, they also seem more likely to have road sense - mine spent ages watching the world go by from the safety of our garden before venturing out. Cats aren't as sociable either - a dog would follow another dog/person/cat regardless of cars whereas cats tend to just watch.


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## bizz2894 (Feb 20, 2012)

I don't have cats anymore, but when i did i wouldn't dream of putting them on a lead/harness and walking them like a dog. Cats kill things ( and in my experience bring said items home as presents for you to step in) If you don't want them to, put a bell on their collar or another noisemaker to warn of their presence. How do they climb ( and get stuck in) tree's if they're on a lead??? I personally would not do this.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Surely it depends on the cat? I've met a tiny handful of indoor cats, the rest spend hours out roaming, begging on other people's doorsteps, sitting on other people's fences etc. I'm not a cat person and haven't lived with one in years (allergic) but it seems unfair to deny them their freedom when they're so independent and obviously keen to be outside.
Of course I can see from the owner's perspective that they wouldn't want to risk losing their cat, it's a tricky one.

On a slightly off-topic note, I remember reading a PETA article a few years ago stating that cats and dogs shouldn't be allowed to roam, a few paragraphs later they said that it was wrong to keep caged birds! Double standards, anyone?


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

You may think it stupid but if you had lost cats to an accident, had them poisoned by drinking anti-freeze, had yobs dump them in bins, kick them to death or tie fireworks to them, maybe you would think again about letting your cat roam.
Are cats less valuable that they shouldn't be protected from such dangers?
Many breeds of cat are just as likely to follow someone as a dog will. 
Think too of the wildlife - many people complain that cats are damaging the wild bird population. A cat that only goes out on a lead can't do that.
A cat that is only allowed out on a lead is not going to foul other peoples' gardens either.
I have two breeding queens who are not allowed to roam for obvious reasons but one will happily go for a walk on a lead. The other is more nervous and would rather not go out at all.


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## kodakkuki (Aug 8, 2011)

i had always assumed that when i got my maine coon she would need walked- i Really wouldn't want her roaming around here- and after spending my day cleaning up cat poop from my garden And off rivers hair and collar, i would like to see a little less free-roaming! 
but a friend of mine has a few moggies that Hate being cooped up, they only come in to eat and say hello to their more laid back sis.


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## vickieb (Nov 22, 2010)

Well I wouldn't put a cat on a harnes and walk them but I see why some do after losing 2 young cats in the same week 

I live on a quiet road as well, but d1cks drive down it at 40 mph and it's a 20! 

Both my babies where hit by cars, my ginger Tom was only 8 months the other 2 years. Worst week ever! So I understand people that do.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

I have 4 indoor only cats as well as having had dogs my entire life

The initial reason for keeping mine in was one of the kittens was deaf - letting him out would be letting him die in a traffic accidents

If you think about it - when dogs *were* allowed to roam in the UK there were less than half the cars on the road as there are today

Cats have been being bred more and more (especially pedigree) to be very people orientated - my Indy (the only cat I now have that was raised from a kitten) is *very* people orientated much of the time - the others are all rescue ex feral/ex stray/ex abused and therefore very wary

But we have people in the village that shoot cats (for eating his pigeons - that he doesn't coop at night so they sleep in hedges) my neighbour who has threatened my Mabel with anti-freeze and tried to hit her with a spade, people that think it 'funny' to tie fireworks to cat or throw fuel on them and then light them on fire

The world has become a very dangerous place for cats that roam - some may roam for their entire lives and be totally fine - others are dead before they are even a year old

On the roads in and around my village I see, on average, 10-20 dead cats per year - now some of those will be ferals/strays/abandoned but the rest are much loved pets lost in horrendous incidents

Surely walking the cats on a leash is better than no fresh air at all? not everyone with indoor only cats can have a cat run for them so alternatives must be found

My 4 - even the ex ferals/strays could *easily* get out if they want as we leave door open when getting shopping in, when talking to neighbours (the ones we do like on other side) yet they don't - so obviously it's not distressing them

I have even had Indy climbing a tree on a leash - it's just a question of where they may climb and making sure they don't go out of reach so I can untangle as needed

Gypsy enjoying garden on a harness and lead 









Indy up a tree









it is estimated that 45% of free roaming cats are killed by age 7-10 due to accident, poisoning or disease - figures go as high as 85% in some areas as low as 12% in others

My cats are not worth less to me than my dog - I provide them with lots of climbing and hiding areas and mental stimulation to keep them happy and healthy


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

I wouldn't throw a cat I owned outside if it died or got seriously injured which is very likely it would be my fault not anyone else's. Why risk the life of the animal you're meant to love because of some mistaken belief they're wild animals? I would happily take a cat out on a lead or catproof the garden if it meant I didn't kill my cat by throwing it outside


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## redroses2106 (Aug 21, 2011)

I don't think the idea for a cat harness is stupid at all tbh 

years ago according to my parents dogs got let out the door and would come home as and when they pleased like cats do now.
dogs also would hunt and kill things if left to roam its nature. 

If I ever had a cat it would be a house cat. no doubt about it.
if more people walked there cats on lead then we would stop seeing it as bizare.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

As a cat owner the reason i don't let mine out is more that there are a lot of cat napping about using them as bait for dog fighting or just general crazy people out there there have been some threads about people HATING cats to the point they want to poison them not so much on here but in general there are a lot of people who think cats shouldn't be able to go in their garden at least with dogs they are normally with you when they go out, although i love dogs donut have one the cats would freak but often look after my bro's staffie and she is such a good girl she would quite happily walk besides you without a lead but apparently people hate that too


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Each to their own really. When I first got a cat age 11 it wasnt really my decision to keep her in/out but it never really occured to any of us to keep her in permanantly. 

Fast forward a few years and I now own another 2..I have weighed up the pros and cons, looked at my area and made the decision that I will let the cats out. There are tons of cats in the neighbouring houses so I am not worried about cat hating neighbours. If something happens to my cats then I will definately have to rethink my decision if I decide to get another. When I move I will have to do the same risk evaluation although we are hoping to buy a house in a cat friendly area. 

Growing up there was a dog that used to roam around the village, nobody elses did but it was just accepted. No harm ever came to it and I believe it died of old age. 

Some people keep their cats in and thats fine, some people dont and thats also fine.


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

If cat owners want the same protection for their pets they should have the same responsibilities


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

i think a lot are keeping them in now for that very reason being responsible UK is known for people letting their cats out all hours my friends in the Us say over there we are known for it but they are mostly indoor i keep my babies in i don't want someone hurting them cause they pooped in their plants


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

My cats are strictly indoors even tho in the summer my dad will let them out for a roam in the back garden when he goes out for a smoke and has left them out there :

Theres so many things that could go wrong out there the list is endless.

I have walked Decker on a harness when we lived at our other place and she enjoyed it. Horris wont move with a harness on and Soda is petrified of the outside world  yet is the dare devil of the house inside




























When I have the space and ability to do so I want to build them an outdoor run so that they can enjoy the outdoors in safety.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I think cat owners should be held responsible for their pets just like dog owners are. If someone's cat keeps coming in your garden destroying your plants, potentialy scaring/endangering your own pets and crapping all over your lawn, they can't be held accountable, but of someone's dog did that they would be hauled up for it. I find this unfair, my dog is not allowed to wander and be a nuisance to others so why should it be different for someone with a cat?


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

I think you'll find the problem is too many gets cats then don't look after them properly they just chuck them outside but go into the cat section and you'll find loads of us are crazy cat mums who do care and are Responsible


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## Coffee (Jul 31, 2011)

It all depends on the cat doesn't it?

My Lily is the most anti-social cat I've ever know. I'd say she's not far off feral to be honest. Seriously, she hates everyone and spends most her time outdoors, coming home only to eat and sleep  She would literally be climbing the walls if she was kept in and as for getting a harness on her - forget it, she'd have your face off


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## moonviolet (Aug 11, 2011)

If it would stop the mad moggy in Salisbury Grove launching night time ambush attacks on me and my dog. I'm all for it! My veg beds would look nicer if I didn't have to construct feline faeces prevention measures too!

I won't even mention the time the neighbours cat peed down the vent on bonnet of OH's car :lol: :lol:


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## hawksport (Dec 27, 2009)

In the falconry world all too often we hear of people that have lost concentration for a second and let go of a leash and the bird has been found dead tangled in a tree. I also knew a cat that was walked on a leash until it slipped out of it's owners hands and was found dead a few days later. If you are going to use a leash on a cat consider clipping one end to your belt or something just incase


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## RockRomantic (Apr 29, 2009)

i don't think a cat on a harness is silly.

Not being a cat person something i've never thought about, last cat i had i was about 7 and that was an indoor cat. 

If i did have a cat i'd be worrying all the time if i let it out if it had been run over or something


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Spike is an outdoor-indoor cat, it's a bad habit that I don't think he'll ever get out of.

I didn't see the problem so let him out but now if I got another cat, it would be an indoor one.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> In the cat section there is a thread on cats on harnesses and leads.
> 
> The worry being that is the cat goes out on their own then they could get injured or kill something.
> 
> ...


First of all congratulations on calling many members on here stupid, just because they have a different opinion to you 

Why are cats roaming, any different to dogs roaming? They are domesticated animals that people keep as pets.

Do you think it would be OK to let your dogs free roam? If not, why not?

People have given many reasons on why we _dont_ let our cats roam (poisoning, being stolen, traffic etc).

What are your reasons for thinking we should?

You say its stupid, but you dont give any reasons why you think that.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Walking a cat on a harness is very, very different from walking a dog. I would never advise anyone to take their cat out in unfamiliar area or if they are not absolutely confident. A cat is not as biddable as a dog, will not return to heel when called and is more likely to panic and pull free from its owner or wriggle out of its harness - though some makes of harness are much more secure than others.
That said, taking a cat for a walk is interesting and can be fun for the cat


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## Calinyx (Oct 14, 2011)

Well Nyx is an indoor cat, with access to a run in the garden and is harness trained. We've had cats in our estate poisoned, run over and disappear. As Nyx is DD's cat, she made the choice when we got her at 9 weeks that she was to be a house cat. She loves coming in the car and is more than happy to join our dogs on their walks.

As mau's are prolific killers, it is recommended that they are kept as house cats. I know Nyx is only 1/2 mau....but I kind of like the wildlife being able to come into our garden and not end up feet up in my kitchen.

Just a few months ago I put a topic on the cats part of this forum about a very young kitten that I ended up taking in over night. Well we found out who he belonged to when he disappeared completely. That's what i call irresponsible pet owners. They chose that their 3 month old could wander.....someone has either taken him in, or being so young he's been killed.

At least I know when I go to bed at night, the chances are that Nyx is tucked up in the dogs bed.....whilst the poor dog is trying to shoehorn herself into the cats bed.


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

MCWillow said:


> First of all congratulations on calling many members on here stupid, just because they have a different opinion to you
> 
> Why are cats roaming, any different to dogs roaming? They are domesticated animals that people keep as pets.
> 
> ...


Because it's just stupid because she says it is is all I can figure :mellow:


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

My OH's parents next door neighbours have about 6 cats and they just come into their garden and poop everywhere. OH's parents are in their 80's and really take pride in their garden, all of their flower beds are full of poop, the cats have ruined their whole garden  even started doing it behind the shed now. OH's mum was covered in it last week when she went down to the shed.

I think the owners should pick up after their cats, they have seen their cats do it hundreds of times but ignore it, I mean they wouldn't allow lucky to wander into their garden and take a cr*p. They have no excuse for not cleaning it up as the 2 gardens are not fenced off and they are certainly not shy about coming over onto OH's parents side as they did all the time to play with lucky when she was a puppy.

Fair enough, they don't always witness their cats doing it but when they do they should make an effort to clean it up


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

My cats have all been indoor cats,my reasons are many.I value the wildlife,I dont like the thought of _my _ cats being responsible for using someones flower bed as a toilet,nor do i like the thought of them being poisoned/shot/run over/ chased by dogs and in general being the subject of any idiots idea of fun.
I am responsible for my cats welfare I cant do that if i dont know where they are.As for walking on a harness I have only done that in the confines of my garden I would not feel confident taking them out where there is the potential of meeting something or someone that may may scare them.
If you consider that to be "stupid" then I'm happy to be so


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

buffie said:


> My cats have all been indoor cats,my reasons are many.I value the wildlife,I dont like the thought of _my _ cats being responsible for using someones flower bed as a toilet,nor do i like the thought of them being poisoned/shot/run over/ chased by dogs and in general being the subject of any idiots idea of fun.
> I am responsible for my cats welfare I cant do that if i dont know where they are.As for walking on a harness I have only done that in the confines of my garden I would not feel confident taking them out where there is the potential of meeting something or someone that may may scare them.
> If you consider that to be "stupid" then I'm happy to be so


Yep, i think that i must also be stupid as well


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Pardon me, but the whole cat on a harness doesn't appeal to me. I admit when I was little I tried to harness up my cat to take for a pavement walk, but he hated it.
Maybe I was lucky, but I had 4 cats in my life, one of which deaf and never had a problem they were indoor/outdoor cats. In winter we lived in an apartment so they were staying in, but in Summer we spent three months at the coast and the cats where left to go in and out as they pleased. 
Our first cat used to be packed in the car and brought along when we went on days out walking up hills, rivers, etc.
He had recall, how strange, all my cats had recall, I thought it was normal?
Obviously the deaf one never came on days out because he had no recall unless he could see you, but he never went too far from the house.
My London cat had a window open to come and go as she pleased, never a problem. She would come back when called.
My present cat is an ex stray that just moved in, obviously he roams as he wants, he comes on walks when we take the dog, even if we go on the road we turn around to see him following us. He is road wise and has been on wood walks of over an hour and we can count on him to find the best way back home. If he follows us on the road (more of a lane) and we hear a car we scoop him up much to his disappointment.

Now, I don't think I am irresponsible. I think cats are way less dependent on us the dogs are and need to have access to roaming. They are adventurous and I can't think of anything stranger then having them restricted to a lead.
Some cats never leave the garden and some like to go for big journeys. I think this is the cat's nature.
To me, if I lived on a main road where dangers multiplies, or if I had real nasty people around like you say I would simply choose not to have cats rather then force them to stay in.

Anyhow, what do I know? I live in a place where even dogs are free to roam!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

MCWillow said:


> First of all congratulations on calling many members on here stupid, just because they have a different opinion to you
> 
> Why are cats roaming, any different to dogs roaming? They are domesticated animals that people keep as pets.
> 
> ...


Just because I think that something some does is stupid, it doesn't mean that the person is stupid.... 

Dogs and cats are totally different animals.

Cats are very independant and can fend for themselves. They do not require the close contact of the owner like a dog does. How many people go on holiday and the neighbour feeds the cat?

Dog cannot be left to roam, for starters it is against the law and they will get picked up by the dog warden. Secondly, if you saw a GSD walking towards you down the street, it may cause you some concern. Thirdly, cats have a lot more sense that dogs and can survive much better than dogs.

You cannot compare the two...

I am still astounded that people think like this about cats and feel the need to keep them inside and then to put a lead on them!!!

Most cats (note I say MOST) will not go up to a person and so are not open to the abuse a dog would be. Most dogs would go up to anyone, especially for food, hence another reason why they would be open to abuse.

I have had cats my whole life, probably in excess of 20. Varying from kittens to rescue cats. I have also done volunteer work with the CPL. A friend of mine down the road has ferrel cats in her garden which she provides food and shelter for. So I'm not a novice when it comes to cats. Hence why to my mind the idea is ludicrous!

I grew up just outside London, in that time only one cat has been ran over. A cat should have freedom. They are not dogs and should not be treated as such.

If you want to put a harness and lead on it, and take the thing for a walk, then get a dog!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

dodigna said:


> Pardon me, but the whole cat on a harness doesn't appeal to me. I admit when I was little I tried to harness up my cat to take for a pavement walk, but he hated it.
> Maybe I was lucky, but I had 4 cats in my life, one of which deaf and never had a problem they were indoor/outdoor cats. In winter we lived in an apartment so they were staying in, but in Summer we spent three months at the coast and the cats where left to go in and out as they pleased.
> Our first cat used to be packed in the car and brought along when we went on days out walking up hills, rivers, etc.
> He had recall, how strange, all my cats had recall, I thought it was normal?
> ...


To be perfectly honest when I saw the thread in the cat section, I just thought it was a few "different" people who walked their cat on a lead. LOL. I'm gobsmacked!


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> To be perfectly honest when I saw the thread in the cat section, I just thought it was a few "different" people who walked their cat on a lead. LOL. I'm gobsmacked!


Me too, I thought of it as an oddity, I would have never thought so many people thought of it as the norm, you learn something every day.


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Horris loves people and if there is an open lap hes in it.

Soda and Decker on the other hand its their terms you have to go with if you want a cuddle with them.

My cats have lots of toys and large and small cat tree's in the house to play with, beds and even a fabric tunnel they race thru. Im sure if they were unhappy with their living space theyd let me know.

I dont have the money to pay if one of them got hit by a car and was srsly injured, they can get trapped, poisoned, sunburned, dehydration, frost bite, attacked by coyotes, dogs, people, other cats, lost, etc.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Just because I think that something some does is stupid, it doesn't mean that the person is stupid....


Glad we cleared that up 



> Dogs and cats are totally different animals.


Obviously. But they both started out as wild animals, that were free to roam and hunt. They are now both domesticated, so why is one species considered OK to roam and hunt, and the other not?



> Cats are very independant and can fend for themselves.


Dogs can also be very independant and can fend for themselves if left to. 
There are many countries where they are left to fend for themselves, and do so very successfully.



> They do not require the close contact of the owner like a dog does. How many people go on holiday and the neighbour feeds the cat?


Tell that to my cats! :lol:

I have had dogs and cats and they are all different.

Some dogs I have had only wanted attention on their terms (like cats normally do) and others have been like shadows, behind me the whole time.
I have also had a cat that that was like that, and now the three I have are different again. Rowan needs to know what I am doing the whole time, and even wakes me up if he wants a cuddle or some fuss. Holly wants fuss and cuddles on a regular basis, although she is happy with her own company too, and Willow is quite aloof most of the time, but she lets me know what she wants when she wants it. I think that is more down to personality than species, as I have observed these traits in cats and dogs.

And I agree, many people go away and just have someone come in to feed the cats. I have also known dog owners do this.
Personally I kennel my cats if I go away, the same as I kennelled my dogs.



> Dog cannot be left to roam, for starters it is against the law and they will get picked up by the dog warden. Secondly, if you saw a GSD walking towards you down the street, it may cause you some concern. Thirdly, cats have a lot more sense that dogs and can survive much better than dogs.


Apart from it being against the law, I dont fully agree. I would probably feel safer with a GSD walking towards me, than I would a terrier. But I guess if I didnt know anything about dogs at all, I would prefer to see a small dog walking towards me than a big one, so I will let you have that one 

On the other hand, for someone that knows cats, there are certain breeds of cat that could walk towards you that would make you want to cross the road.

But for dogs and cats, I would guess the road crossing would only come into it if the animal was acting aggresively (for me anyway).

I have known several cats a sandwich short of a picnic, so they dont always have more sense than dogs 



> You cannot compare the two...


You can have that one too 



> I am still astounded that people think like this about cats and feel the need to keep them inside and then to put a lead on them!!!


As I said before, there are many reasons for cats being kept inside.
I would also say, that most people that put harnesses and leads on them, only use them in the garden. I know of a lot of people that use harnesses on cats, but dont take them for a walk as you would a dog.



> Most cats (note I say MOST) will not go up to a person and so are not open to the abuse a dog would be. Most dogs would go up to anyone, especially for food, hence another reason why they would be open to abuse.


From my own personal experience, I have to disagree with you again. I always pet a cat if I see one, and I have time. I would say 95% of cats that I have stopped to pet have come to me, and enjoyed a good fuss. I obviously havent tried it, but I bet if I had a bag of Dreamies in my pocket they would follow me.



> I have had cats my whole life, probably in excess of 20. Varying from kittens to rescue cats. I have also done volunteer work with the CPL. A friend of mine down the road has ferrel cats in her garden which she provides food and shelter for. So I'm not a novice when it comes to cats. Hence why to my mind the idea is ludicrous!


I provide food and shelter in my garden for ferals too. I couldnt get near them if I tried. That doesnt mean I want to let my cats outside, to the dangers of the road, the canal, and uneutered cats full of hormones, wanting to fight for what they perceive as their territory.



> I grew up just outside London, in that time only one cat has been ran over. A cat should have freedom. They are not dogs and should not be treated as such.


You're very lucky. All my family on my mums side are from London, then moving to the outskirts. They have all had cats that they have lost to the road 



> If you want to put a harness and lead on it, and take the thing for a walk, then get a dog!


But we like our cats!! As you said, you cannot compare the two


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Horris loves people and if there is an they can get trapped, poisoned, sunburned, dehydration, frost bite, attacked by coyotes, dogs, people, other cats, lost, etc.


And me thinking cats knew what was best for them, I was raised thinking cats won't eat things if they are contaminated. My own cats proved this to me. Especially my ex-stray he won't touch certain things and still prefers drinking from paddles, rain water from wherever it collects. 
Never heard of a cat getting sunburned  Can't they find shade?
I think we are in danger or seriously underestimate the surviving capacity of the 'cat'. Frost bite is also something I never considered.. Cats have fur and can find places to keep warm.
My cat didn't come back one night during the snow, we were worried of course and did the neighbours rounds, when we got back it was past lunch time and he was waiting by the door. He obviously found a cozy place and decided to stay the night rather then walk in the chill. Now, that is what I call a smart move.. Of course it caused us to worry and a sleepless night taking turns to go out to call him. It is the downfall of living with a cat, but it is also fascinating to see how well they cope.

There was a program a few years back about what would happen if the human disappeared and nature would take over. It showed that the only pet animal that would survive would be the cat! They would form colony and find high ground as living habitat.


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## K337 (May 20, 2011)

It's becoming more and more common as the dangers to outdoor cats increase and people are looking for an alternative to free roaming. The amount of people who secure their garden or build a cat run is increasing as well.

My Burmese in Aus wore a collar and lead 16 years ago - so we could get her used to being an indoor/outdoor cat before just letting her loose. She never really took to it but it was a good way to get her familiar with the area as a kitten.

All three of my cats are harness trained now and come out into the back garden. If I wasn't renting I would cat proof it for them so they could go out without me. However, the boys love their harnesses and get very excited when they come out. Sybil has only worn hers twice, but enjoyed pottering around the garden in it. For her and Freckle, it is completely different from a dog but for Bloo... well if he didn't look like a cat you would think he was a dog, particularly if he has his teeny tennis ball with him and is begging you to throw it again.

The only reason I don't walk him outside (I have tried) is because he wants to greet other cats and dogs while he is out and I don't think it's safe for either party.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

oh the part I didn't put in my previous post - Mabel has skin cancer in her ear, at the moment it is not growing/spreading, this is because she is kept from UV exposure

One day I will most likely have to pay for her to have her ear amputated - the number of pale eared cats that develop skin cancer is rediculously high and you can't really get them to keep suncream on (as my local Cat's Protection told me to do)

The risks of the modern world are too high in many people's opinion - a good friend who lives *literally* in the middle of nowhere had her beloved cat go missing so the risks are everywhere - I'm still praying that little girl shows up safe

As mentioned previously there's also the aspect of their faeces - free roaming cats go where they like - this is highly undesirable for those people who are either very garden proud (like my neighbour who threatened to poison Mabel) or have young children and have to sift the sandpit every time their kids want to play in it

Why should *my* love of an animal inconvenience others?

You say you can't compare dogs and cats and it's illegal for dogs to roam - in the UK up until at least the 50's/60's they *were* allowed to roam - as long as they had a dog licence on they were often ignored by the dog warden. My Granddad remembers clearly when it was the 'norm' to let your dog out as you went to work and then called it in when you came home. This was also back when it was unusual for most working class people to have a pedigree so they were a variety of terrier and mid sized mixes

Now - it's inconceivable to most people in the UK for a dog to be allowed to roam and everyone on here tuts about dog owners not picking up their dog's faeces

I would love for anyone to come meet my cats and be able to truthfully say they are unfulfilled or harmed by my keeping them indoor only - ok so some people are lucky and never lose a cat to a road but for the thousands of owners every year that lose their cat to RTA's? that was a risk they lost.

I lost my Misha to a house fire - the chance of someone having a housefire at any point? less than 2%-5% (unless you live in a deathtrap or are daft and do things like smoking in bed whilst drunk) yet every other week roughly I see at least one dead cat by a roadside.

I am honestly so glad that you haven't had a cat lost to poison, human or dog attack, RTA, Simple Accidents (IE falling from a tree wrong and various broken limbs)...

You say a cat is more wary and less likely to get maliciously hurt by humans? Mabel is ex-stray verging on feral by time we rescued her, she is *terrified* of strangers and it took me 2 years to be able to pick her up... she was thrown whilst pregnant from someone's car, during her feral life with us she lived in the garage, during that time she had to be trapped and treated for chemical burns, damage from being apparently kicked in the face, cleaned due to oil and paint being spattered on her and a fish hook removed from a paw (obv been hunting by the canal and someone dropped a fish hook when fishing)

since becoming an indoor pet she is more outgoing with the family (still petrified of strangers) and has been to the vet only for her vaccinations

I don't think it's 'double standards' when comparing them to dogs, just ideas and thoughts evolving, over time

so like dogs are no longer free roaming/left out in sheds at night or only kept kennelled as the case used to be for the majority of dogs in the UK people are starting to confine cats, just as people began to be more 'public conscious' with their dogs and pick up their waste (if a 'decent' owner) people are becoming more aware of the impact cats have on other people.

50 years ago we considered it 'normal' to smack a dog around and rub its face in its own mess as 'training' and that you had to be 'the boss' and the dog had to 'know it's place' - using whips/ropes to literally smack a dog into submission wasn't overly frowned on and half throttling your dog to teach it to come to heel was also 'normal' - the vast majority of good dog owners today recoil in horror at the thought of that style 'training'!

Who knows,in 100 years time people may look back in horror on *our* training methods and housing of animals because by then the animal loving pet owner will *only* live in a house built specifically to meet all their pets comforts as well as their own.



dodigna said:


> There was a program a few years back about what would happen if the human disappeared and nature would take over. It showed that the only pet animal that would survive would be the cat! They would form colony and find high ground as living habitat.


just to point out most of the dangers to cats are *human* origin... so he humans disappearing is a huge factor in them surviving. As to health issues and safety problems like the sunburn - if all cats went back to being wild dominant colour genes like tabby would again, the cats at risk of sunburn are the ones with pale/white ears and noses. These would die out/the dominant tabby gene would become more common so after say 30-50 years there would only be the strongest and best genes come forward from the current domestic cat and they would have changed a fair bit as all the breeds combined - each country/habitat having the body and fur types best suited to their environment


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

This thread is ridiculous. People walking cats in harnesses isn't a new idea - it's been happening for over 50 years! 

Why judge a cat owner for wanting to keep their cat safe? Wow, get over yourselves, please!


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

MCWillow said:


> Glad we cleared that up
> 
> Obviously. But they both started out as wild animals, that were free to roam and hunt. They are now both domesticated, so why is one species considered OK to roam and hunt, and the other not?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your post. 

I understand there are dangers with cats going outside. But in my mind you have to weigh it up with the quality of life.

Most animals can adapt to the environment, but does that make it fair?

If you live in a bad area or busy road then don't get a cat.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

I should like to clarify I have nothing against cats that choose to live indoors only, or cats that need to be kept inside because of a medical condition or have been crippled in an accident. 
I also have nothing against people that live in apartments and get cats that never, saved for a balcony or the roof (oh my god! They can fall!), get to experience life outside. They are brought up this way and know nothing else.

But as we have moved down this thread and got thinking more about the subject I have reached the conclusion that to take a cat in your garden with a harness is simply letting him 'watch but not touch' the great outdoors.
I asked my cat for his opinion and he said, nonsense! 
Sounds to me like taking children to the playground and never let them get out of the car, in case they fall off a swing or eat sand


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## LottieLab (Jan 2, 2012)

Julie once tried to put a leash on her cat, Scooter, but he went crazy. He just hated it. My opinion is that having it leashed/harnessed is fine but only if the cat doesn't mind. Dogs and cats are very different, most dogs follow their noses but cats follow their brains (not sayng dogs don't use theirs! Jusst that they would follow their noses first!). Basically, if the cat doesn't mind being leashed, if you want, its fine to have itt on one. Maybe you could ttry recall with a cat?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

LottieLab said:


> Julie once tried to put a leash on her cat, Scooter, but he went crazy. He just hated it. My opinion is that having it leashed/harnessed is fine but only if the cat doesn't mind. Dogs and cats are very different, most dogs follow their noses but cats follow their brains (not sayng dogs don't use theirs! Jusst that they would follow their noses first!). Basically, if the cat doesn't mind being leashed, if you want, its fine to have itt on one. Maybe you could ttry recall with a cat?


Maybe cat training classes will catch on..

Or agility..

:biggrin5:


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

When we first got Polly from rescue I harness trained her. She's a Ragdoll and you have to agree they won't free roam. As a breed they are very friendly and not very streetwise. I didn't take her for walk, I'd be too scared shed get spooked and run, she just went in the garden on a flexi-lead. Now she goes into the garden but never leaves it, so we only let he out supervised and don't use the harness.

I don't think I'd have a free roaming cat now, I don't want then causing nuisance by pooing on gardens and I'd be worried about them being run over. Loads of my friends have lost cats to road accidents. 

Polly is happy as an indoor/garden cat, so I'm happy


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Polimba said:


> When we first got Polly from rescue I harness trained her. She's a Ragdoll and you have to agree they won't free roam. As a breed they are very friendly and not very streetwise. I didn't take her for walk, I'd be too scared shed get spooked and run, she just went in the garden on a flexi-lead. Now she goes into the garden but never leaves it, so we only let he out supervised and don't use the harness.
> 
> I don't think I'd have a free roaming cat now, I don't want then causing nuisance by pooing on gardens and I'd be worried about them being run over. Loads of my friends have lost cats to road accidents.
> 
> Polly is happy as an indoor/garden cat, so I'm happy


Cats have always pooed in gardens as have foxes.

Same as birds crapping on your freshly washed car. 

I don't care if cats poo in my garden.


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## Polimba (Nov 23, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Cats have always pooed in gardens as have foxes.
> 
> Same as birds crapping on your freshly washed car.
> 
> I don't care if cats poo in my garden.


I don't care if she poos in my garden, but other people do and I've known people who drop kick cats or smash them against a wall for it


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

tbh my cats all recall well (they think with their bellies)

but they don't 'think' overly well once they start stalking... Indy once fell off a bookcase because he was stalking a moth and didn't notice he was running out of bookcase  I could easily see him start stalking a bird across the road and not notice the car heading his way

As for saying if you don't live somewhere suitable, don't get a cat...

As I mentioned before Mabel was thrown out of a car window when pregnant, she and Indy (her only surviving kitten) were in my garage

We tried every cat rescue going and got the same reply everywhere 'Sorry, we're full'

or at a few 'With her injuries? we'd euthanise her, the kitten too as he's not weaned and we don't have the staff to hand raise him'

Should I have left a cat with multiple fractures to fend for herself? kill a 5 week old kitten? just because I'm not happy to expose them to the dangers of modern life

They have a life indoors full of climbing, playing, hunting moths and spiders, sunbathing in UV filtered light (the windows have filters on them) and generally acting like cats

Oh and those who say people have tried harnesses on cats and the cats freaked out... did they train the cat to accept it or plonk it on and hope for the best?

that's like the people who what a halti onto a dog with no gentle introduction and wonder why the dog freaks out


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Maybe cat training classes will catch on..
> 
> Or agility..
> 
> :biggrin5:


cat agility is a thing now... CFA Cat Agility Presentation - YouTube


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Cats have always pooed in gardens as have foxes.
> 
> Same as birds crapping on your freshly washed car.
> 
> I don't care if cats poo in my garden.


This is one thing that really bugs me..cat poo...my dogs don't do it on my grass , so why should someone else's cat :

house cats all the way for me


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

IndysMamma said:


> tbh my cats all recall well (they think with their bellies)
> 
> but they don't 'think' overly well once they start stalking... Indy once fell off a bookcase because he was stalking a moth and didn't notice he was running out of bookcase  I could easily see him start stalking a bird across the road and not notice the car heading his way
> 
> ...


Good on you for helping the two of them out.

But I still feel that this is a case of the world "going mad".

I'd be Interested to know how people who feel as you do about their cats, deal with having children in the "modern world".

This is not a criticism, just a question by the way.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

not being funny but their is dog s*** everywhere on the streets and cats do it as its soft


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Thanks for your post.
> 
> I understand there are dangers with cats going outside. But in my mind you have to weigh it up with the quality of life.
> 
> ...


Its no more unfair confining a cat than it is confining a dog, as long as you make sure that the animal has the exercise and stimulation it needs to be happy and healthy.

I dont live in a bad area. I live on a canal. There are 7 seven houseboats in our stretch, and as we are the third boat along, the four past me need to walk through my garden to get to their boats. The boat next to me has 2 staffies.

Now I have nothing against them, but as soon as they see me in the garden (if they are out) they come running at 300MPH to say hello. And they jump. And they are solid!

Not all my neighbours that come through my garden will shut my gates, doesnt matter how many times I ask them. And one of them has a very old deaf terrier that she never has on a lead. She is normally talking on her phone so doesnt notice when her dog stops to empty his bowels in my garden. Incidently I havent seen any cat poo in the garden, and all but 2 of the 7 boats have cats.

So because I have neighbours that 'forget' to shut gates, do you really think it is fair that I shouldnt have cats?

We are building a cat run this summer, so they can have some time outside, but I really cant see why I should not have pets of my choosing because of how other people behave with their pets.

All I can do is make sure that mine are as safe as I can make them.

Forgot to add this 


goodvic2 said:


> Maybe cat training classes will catch on..
> 
> *Or agility..*
> 
> :biggrin5:


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Coffee said:


> It all depends on the cat doesn't it?
> 
> My Lily is the most anti-social cat I've ever know. I'd say she's not far off feral to be honest. Seriously, she hates everyone and spends most her time outdoors, coming home only to eat and sleep  She would literally be climbing the walls if she was kept in and as for getting a harness on her - forget it, she'd have your face off


Sounds JUST like Misty!

I never knew pets could be loving and actually LIKE you until we got Dottie!

I was like "What?! This dog actually wants to sit on my lap?...oh my goodness!"

Misty is still an a*****e to me no matter how nice I am to her or how many treats I buy her!

She uses my bedroom as her personal exit and entrance to the house and leaves paw prints, sick, dead animals, wee in my room en route to the hall.

I used to go for walks with Misty, all down the fields and back up again! 
That kitty is mean but I do love her really!

xxx


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

MCWillow said:


> Its no more unfair confining a cat than it is confining a dog, as long as you make sure that the animal has the exercise and stimulation it needs to be happy and healthy.
> 
> I dont live in a bad area. I live on a canal. There are 7 seven houseboats in our stretch, and as we are the third boat along, the four past me need to walk through my garden to get to their boats. The boat next to me has 2 staffies.
> 
> ...


LOl I like the agility!

I don't agree with care being kept inside, but then we have never had cats who have been kept inside. That being said we are all entitled to our own views.

I will never agree with Walking a cat on a harness and lead and would probably think the person was mad. But each to their own....


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

dodigna said:


> And me thinking cats knew what was best for them, I was raised thinking cats won't eat things if they are contaminated. My own cats proved this to me. Especially my ex-stray he won't touch certain things and still prefers drinking from paddles, rain water from wherever it collects.
> 
> My cats have gotten ahold of plants that have made them sick and throw up and one cat has a severe allergy that took three trips to the vets for steroid injections while she lost all her hair on her head and had warm sticky open wounds on her head. What would happen if she got out and came into contact with what made her have an allergy reaction ??(we never fully determined what it is, tho we think milk) and it happened fast last time as well.
> 
> ...


Ive seen that show but only bits and pieces as my brother steals the clicker and wont let me watch it  I wouldnt put it past them for surviving.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

My goodness, I am absolutely stunned at the reactions this post and the one in cat chat asking about a suitable harness for their cat have provoked 
I will remain a 'mad cat lady' and continue to walk my cat rather than risk anything happening to her. My younger one will remain indoors, where she prefers to be.
As for my attitude towards my children, I can teach them the dangers they face in the world and then let them go with the knowledge that I have done the best I can - they are all adults now, by the way. My eldest son, daughter, step-daughter and two step-sons all have cats that roam and I would never criticise them for making that choice for their cats.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> LOl I like the agility!
> 
> I don't agree with care being kept inside, but then we have never had cats who have been kept inside. That being said we are all entitled to our own views.
> 
> I will never agree with Walking a cat on a harness and lead and would probably think the person was mad. But each to their own....


I think we can all agree to disagree - it was you using the word 'stupid' that set me off  

These are the first cats I have had that are kept in, and weighing up the pros and cons I do believe I am making the right decision.

It was having my decision called stupid that I objected to 

The 2 staffies next door are lovely - but I wouldnt trust them around my cats. They are very excitable, and the smaller one is quite nippy when excited - staffies dont know their own strength! :001_rolleyes:

Although I have to say the only dog injury _I_ have had was my brothers EBT who broke my nose headbutting me giving me 'loves' - another dog that doesnt know its own strength!


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

The problem is like dog breeders have changed the breeds over time to an extent where many breeds of dog are severly deformed, cat breeders have created many breeds which have a very trusting and laid back nature. Of course to cat owners this is great news but for the cat it does leave them at great risk of the dangers outdoors. I chose my cat due to the breeds very laid back, friendly character. Great for a pet but useless at looking after himself.
You say they are "used to roaming free" but My cat has very few of the traits a wild cat would have. He has no common sense at all.

Perhaps another kind of cat would be safer outdoors as would have more sense but if I'm honest I'd not feel happy about any cat roaming these days.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

paddyjulie said:


> This is one thing that really bugs me..cat poo...my dogs don't do it on my grass , so why should someone else's cat :
> 
> house cats all the way for me


Exactly. Nobody would let me send my dog out of my yard into their garden just so I don't have to clean up after it, so why should I put up with someone's cat coming in mine because 'cats roam'

Round here if people value their gardens highly, and would think nothing of throwing bricks, a boot up the ass, poison, or using air rifles. My aunt had at least 3 cats that got mysteriously ill and died, and one of my friends got so fed up of a neighbour letting 6 of the damn things into her garden constantly that she 'bombed' them with water balloons:cornut: Like she said she didn't have any animals of her own so why the hell should she clean up after 6 of someone elses?


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

We all have our own ways and views and all trying to do the best for our animals. Not really necessary to hop over to another forum to voice how people doing this is "stupidity" and "madness".
After all, you have your own thread on catchat which you created to get your background info to start this one here. No need really...


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

It's when cat owners refuse to take responsibility it annoys me oh don't worry it's not your fault your cat got into someone's garden and killed a beloved pet rabbit (was actually on a thread on here) you can't control cats. I'm sorry but if my dog got into someone's garden and killed their pet it would be my fault even if he had escaped by accident and I would take responsibility and I wouldn't let him toilet in everyone else's gardens


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> It's when cat owners refuse to take responsibility it annoys me oh don't worry it's not your fault your cat got into someone's garden and killed a beloved pet rabbit (was actually on a thread on here) you can't control cats. I'm sorry but if my dog got into someone's garden and killed their pet it would be my fault even if he had escaped by accident and I would take responsibility and I wouldn't let him toilet in everyone else's gardens


So are you of the view that cats should be free to roam, or that they should be kept indoors like dogs are?


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

Indoor why kill your pet by throwing it outside? But if you are going to throw it out then take responsibility for what it does


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Indoor why kill your pet by throwing it outside? But if you are going to throw it out then take responsibility for what it does


Totally agree with you


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

But a pet rabbit could have been killed by a feral cat, or a hawk 
If you let a rabbit out you are taking some chances 
A rabbit has a lot of predators to be weary of


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

dodigna said:


> But a pet rabbit could have been killed by a feral cat, or a hawk
> If you let a rabbit out you are taking some chances
> A rabbit has a lot of predators to be weary of


Exactly  We cant control nature,although some feel they must try ,What we can control or at least try to,is what our pets are allowed to do.This ranges from the small to the large.Just because we love them doesnt mean we should expect everyone else to.I keep my cat indoors mainly for his protection but also to protect the wildlife he may kill/the garden he may s**t in ect,just as I kept my dogs from danger and upsetting my neighbours.I would never have opened the door to allow my dogs to "free roam" why should I think it to be different with cats.


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## Nicky10 (Jan 11, 2010)

dodigna said:


> But a pet rabbit could have been killed by a feral cat, or a hawk
> If you let a rabbit out you are taking some chances
> A rabbit has a lot of predators to be weary of


So it's ok and not your fault if your cat killed someone's pet (if it was witnessed of course and definitely your cat ) because it could have been any other predator lovely to know. If you buy/adopt/save an animal it is your responsibility to keep it as safe as you can


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

I welcome anyone to come and visit my cat to see how evil I am because I keep her in 

She used to be an inside/outside cat when I lived in the middle of nowhere on acres of my own land, but after moving in to a town and having to run out to stop the millions of entire cats in the area attacking her (I've had to drag 3 cats off of her before now), she has also been fed by sweet old ladies that think they are being nice (which in itself isn't a huge problem but I have had to deal with the consequences of them feeding her slightly gone off foods ), we have had many cats in the area poisoned because they fouled in other peoples gardens, personally I know of 6 friends cats that have gone missing with no trace and finally I have known personally of 8 friends cats that have been killed by RTA's  
So because of this I decided I would like my cat to live to a ripe old age, so she became a house cat (she comes out in the garden when I am there, but she is never left out unsupervised)


My cat is 100% happy about being kept as a house cat, to the point that I can have my front or back door wide open and she will just sit by the door watching the world go by, if she was that distressed by me keeping her in surely she would try to "escape" at the earliest opportunity, if my cat was that distressed she wouldn't currently be upside down purring next to me 

As pet owners we learn new things as time goes on, so just because it was acceptable 20 years ago it does not mean it always will be..


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

My cats are indoor cats because ;
1) I have lost a cat to a car whilst living in a quiet cul-de-sac
2) we moved home and my other cat kept wandering and wherever he ended up the people decided as he was 'a lovely cat they would keep him'. This happened 3 times and I got him back after extensive poster campaign. The last time he wandered further and I got a call about a year later because they took him to the vet and they found his chip. I decided to let them keep him as my kids were devastated every time he left.
3) the guy over the road was deliberatly leaving anti-freeze out and some local cats were poisoned.
4) my cat is a little daft and can not find her way back home from the back garden  she has escaped once and I found her under a bush looking very sorry for herself.
5) we get moved round a lot and so it is easier for them to cope with (she has lived in the Philippines where no2 cat was adopted, China and now Thailand) moving a cat who is free to roam is harder because they have a territory whereas mine adapt well because their 'territory' moves with them- lots of cat trees, beds and toys)
6) she is a people cat and would go off with anyone! She is an unusual pedigree and would be quickly taken.

I keep her mind active with clicker training and both the cats play together regularly. She is active, affectionate and mine!


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

I used to breed and show British blue and cream short hair cats some 30 years ago and wouldn't dream of letting them out so took them for strolls just outside local to my house at quiet times of the day/night on their leads and harness's. They had a garden enclosure but I had nothing better to do in those days! 

You wouldn't let show cats out as they could get nicked and they weren't street wise either.  I lived in East London then too and the roads were very busy.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I have discovered reason number 7 for having an indoor cat!

7) massive snakes eat the feral cats here! Just heard screams and ran outside to find the biggest snake I have ever seen half way through eating one of the many street cats found over here 

I will admit that reason will no longer exist when we return back home


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## Malmum (Aug 1, 2010)

OMG  how awful!

So glad I live in good old Blighty, couldn't cope living elsewhere. My girls often rib me about being scared to take Flynn out, what with the polar bears and all trying to eat him!  I wouldn't allow any cat or dog of mine out if I lived in foreign climes.


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## BlueBeagle (Oct 27, 2011)

I have to say it was the worst thing I have seen in the 5 years we have lived overseas. The scream from the neighbour was bad enough but the snake was scary! I know the empty grassy plots have snakes but they are at the other end of the compound and not that near us at all. I would have thought it was too built up here and well kept gardens with no place to hide for the snake!

Am now concerned about letting the dog outside for a wee  

I think she will be ok cos she is so nervous of anything she will run before looking but will be keeping a close eye on her from now on.


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

BlueBeagle said:


> Well I have discovered reason number 7 for having an indoor cat!
> 
> 7) massive snakes eat the feral cats here! Just heard screams and ran outside to find the biggest snake I have ever seen half way through eating one of the many street cats found over here
> 
> I will admit that reason will no longer exist when we return back home


 must say reason number 7 has some foundation


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Out of interest do the people who keep their cats inside all own expensive pedigrees? Is this why?


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## dodigna (Feb 19, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> Out of interest do the people who keep their cats inside all own expensive pedigrees? Is this why?


I must admit the thought crossed my mind  but with all the discussions about the dogs and breeding I didn't want to open another Pandora box


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Erm do cats that are kept indoors constantly, or walked only on a lead/harness get enough exercise/stimulation?

I used to walk my pet bunny on a harness!


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Out of interest do the people who keep their cats inside all own expensive pedigrees? Is this why?


Not at all. Every cat is exposed to the same risks and every cat will poo in someone else's garden, not something I want any cat of mine doing.
The only difference is that many pedigrees are bred to have a certain nature, more trusting, more chilled out so possibly at more risk that a more switched on moggy


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## gorgeous (Jan 14, 2009)

Not read all of this thread but thought would add my two penneth for what it is worth:mellow:

Our two cats are allowed to go outside but only in daylight and they tend to be fairweather cats anyhow. They are 12 and in good health and enjoy their outdoor adventures.....they get fussed by passers by....have made friends with some of the neighbours cats and when I walk the girls to school, the cats are known to follow us....

As pet owners we used our judgement when making the decision to allow our cats to go outside...

however that is our judgement and we would never judge other owners on how they look after their pets..as long as their cat/ pet is well looked after, loved and cared for it has nowt to do with anyone else...


ps my nieces whom live in a very posh London postcode walk their guinea pigs on a lead to Hyde Park...now that is a sight lol....


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I am still astounded that people think like this about cats and feel the need to keep them inside and then to put a lead on them!!!
> 
> Most cats (note I say MOST) will not go up to a person and so are not open to the abuse a dog would be. Most dogs would go up to anyone, especially for food, hence another reason why they would be open to abuse.
> 
> ...


I am sorry, but I find this statement extremely offensive. I don't want a dog, I love cats. My cat is harness trained and absolutely LOVES his walks. He shouts at me if I am 5 minutes late for the walk. I only take him around the communal garden (dog-free, traffic free) and it is a great bonding exercise that we both enjoy. So why not? I am doing nobody any harm, so why are you so judgemental? In fact, I am doing the neighbours a huge favour because my cats do not poop in their gardens. I have a catproofed garden and that is all the freedom they need, thanks. Cats do not need to have "freedom" if it is at the cost of their lives. Everyone is free to do as they please with their animals, including letting them roam free (sometimes bothering the neighbours), I have no problem with that. However, I sleep very well every night knowing that my cats are safe indoors.......... Do you?


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> In the cat section there is a thread on cats on harnesses and leads.
> 
> The worry being that is the cat goes out on their own then they could get injured or kill something.
> 
> ...


It's always seemed the norm to me for a cat to be allowed to roam, Six Dinner Sid comes to mind, but something a friend said changed it for me.

Although I do see why people can be peeved! Cats toilet where they like, go where they like, wander into houses (the brave ones - my Mum's found Sadie's owners cat on our landing before in the summer when the door is open) and can kill pets (chickens, rabbits etc).

We wouldn't let a dog get away with it.. and with cats it's harder to lay the blame, unless you know who the cat belongs to.


----------



## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Cats have always pooed in gardens as have foxes.
> 
> Same as birds crapping on your freshly washed car.
> 
> I don't care if cats poo in my garden.


Neither do I, but I don't want them to poo in other people's gardens.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> Out of interest do the people who keep their cats inside all own expensive pedigrees? Is this why?


No my cat is a bog standard long haired moggy, she doesn't need to be a pedigree for me to want to protect her from being poisoned, run over, attacked 

This thread is so judgmental :mad5:, I mean I don't judge people that have dogs that don't do the job they were bred for, and I also don't judge people that never allow their dog off lead so why does it matter what other cat owners do.
Some people let their cats roam, some people don't want to take that risk that is *THEIR * decision to make :mellow:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Erm do cats that are kept indoors constantly, or walked only on a lead/harness get enough exercise/stimulation?
> 
> I used to walk my pet bunny on a harness!


I always said you were as mental as your dog :biggrin5:

LOL did u really??


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

gorgeous said:


> ps my nieces whom live in a very posh London postcode walk their guinea pigs on a lead to Hyde Park...now that is a sight lol....


it probably wouldn't look too out of place in central London...


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> No my cat is a bog standard long haired moggy, she doesn't need to be a pedigree for me to want to protect her from being poisoned, run over, attacked
> 
> This thread is so judgmental :mad5:, I mean I don't judge people that have dogs that don't do the job they were bred for, and I also don't judge people that never allow their dog off lead so why does it matter what other cat owners do.
> Some people let their cats roam, some people don't want to take that risk that is *THEIR * decision to make :mellow:


Be boring if we all agreed wouldn't it... 

At least it makes for an interesting debate..:biggrin5:


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I always said you were as mental as your dog :biggrin5:
> 
> LOL did u really??


Yes- I was about 8 though!! :tongue:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

So for those of you who actually take your cat for a walk on a lead.. What kind of reaction do you get from the general public? Or are you neighbours just used to it now?

Do they walk to a heel or do they pull?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Lexiedhb said:


> Yes- I was about 8 though!! :tongue:


Can u imagine Dexie seeing a guinea pig or a cat on a lead? Wonder what he'd do??


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> So for those of you who actually take your cat for a walk on a lead.. What kind of reaction do you get from the general public? Or are you neighbours just used to it now?
> 
> Do they walk to a heel or do they pull?


The same reaction I get from walking my rabbits.
"Is that a dog? yeah that's a dog isn't it? OMFG that woman is CRAZY"

My Furball doesn't really heal and she doesn't pull, we just wonder lol.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Can u imagine Dexie seeing a guinea pig or a cat on a lead? Wonder what he'd do??


OMG- that would serously confuse him. PULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL theres something on a lead- erm wait its a guniea pig "mummmmmmmm what is dis"


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> The same reaction I get from walking my rabbits.
> "Is that a dog? yeah that's a dog isn't it? OMFG that woman is CRAZY"
> 
> My Furball doesn't really heal and she doesn't pull, we just wonder lol.


At least you have a sense of humour about it!

God forbid I ever start seeing cats and rabbits on my walks. I have enough trouble with other dogs :mellow:


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> So for those of you who actually take your cat for a walk on a lead.. What kind of reaction do you get from the general public? Or are you neighbours just used to it now?
> 
> Do they walk to a heel or do they pull?


I always get a smile and an "AWWWW". They are enchanted and ask where they can get a similar jacket and is it difficult to harness train a cat because they want to try walking their cats too. Nunu walks to heel mostly, sometimes watching my feet to see which direction I am taking. He trots next to me if I walk fast. Pulls when he smells something interesting or sees the neighbour's cat. A soft tug on the leash and "come my boy" and he moves in next to me. He won't head home on his own, so I have to pick him up and carry him indoors when the 20-30 minutes are up.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> At least you have a sense of humour about it!
> 
> God forbid I ever start seeing cats and rabbits on my walks. I have enough trouble with other dogs :mellow:


I am very, very careful about where I go tbh because I don't want to cause people problems with their dogs, and if I do spot any dogs I tend to scoop up whoever I have until the dog has passed


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> Cats are very independant and can fend for themselves.


REALLY?????? 

See this:










*IT IS NOT REAL!!!!!!!*

Until you show me the cat that CAN use an air rifle, CAN drive a car so can run down human beings and has the ability to tie a firework to the back of the chav hanging about on the corner THEN I will believe that cats can 'fend for themselves'!!!!!

Until then, any cat that is free-roaming is at the mercy of having ANY of the above happen to it at any time!!!!!

And THAT is why caring cat owners look at other options for exercising their cats.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> I am very, very careful about where I go tbh because I don't want to cause people problems with their dogs, and if I do spot any dogs I tend to scoop up whoever I have until the dog has passed


Yes, I wouldn't walk my cat where dogs - on or offlead - are likely to be.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

This is how I see it:

Traditionally cats have been allowed to free roam and very few people questioned it. The same was true of dogs until fairly recently, with people just opening the door and letting them wander throughout the day.
Obviously with dogs this culture has changed, and people who allow their dogs to stray are seen as irresponsible.

I never had any issue with cats being allowed to roam. My views have changed a bit, but still each to their own - I certainly wouldn't have the cheek to tell someone they are wrong for allowing roaming. 

BUT - my own cats are indoor-only (by necessity), they will remain so, and I completely understand why people keep cats indoors.

The risks to the cat are obvious - car accidents, attacks by dogs and foxes, poisoning (both accidental and deliberate), human cruelty and theft, getting trapped (eg in other peoples sheds), etc. Plus, the risks of cats to eachother in terms of injury, parasites and infectious disease.

On the flip side are the effects roaming cats have on everyone else. Most of the cat-haters I know dislike cats because they are forced to put up with other peoples animals crapping in their gardens or killing the wildlife they make the effort to feed. Cars are also an issue here - although the cat usually comes off worst they can cause RTA which affect the people in those cars.

Personally I don't see why cats are seen so differently - you wouldn't allow a rabbit, ferret or guinea pig to roam because of the risk of them coming to harm. You wouldn't allow a dog to roam for their own sake, and for other peoples sakes. 

I certainly don't think it is "stupid" to prevent roaming, either by keeping the cats indoors or by cat-proofing the garden / providing a cat run. If people want to give their cats the taste of the outdoors on a lead then why the hell shouldn't they?

For the record, I'm a "dog person", always have been. But I do love cats too and I'm currently a cat owner.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

MoggyBaby said:


> REALLY??????
> 
> Until you show me the cat that CAN use an air rifle, CAN drive a car so can run down human beings and has the ability to tie a firework to the back of the chav hanging about on the corner THEN I will believe that cats can 'fend for themselves'!!!!!
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. Cats are not generally able to fend for themselves, unless they are truly feral, and even a feral's life expectancy is around 18 months (and that is with regular feeding)
I think this is the misconception that many people have, which accounts for the many cases of dumping at feral colonies or abandonment of cats because "oh, they'll be alright". This is NOT TRUE. I work with feral colonies and the other cats generally do not accept a stranger in their midst. These dumped cats hang around the feeding areas and cannot assert themselves and end up half starving, and it is then left to us, the feeders, as usual, to catch them and find a home for them. So much for "freedom", eh?
:


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## sammierhall (Mar 7, 2012)

My friend has a man coon cat, and they are massive!!! the size of a corgi! she has to take it out on the lead! Ive had a cat before and would only use a lead to introduce it to the new area i moved to, Going back dogs used to roam, my dad lived in Ireland and it was usual to see a dog roam around then go home.


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

I only walk them in the garden now but Indy used to come out with me and Max... he'd walk next to Max or hitch a ride - in garden they wander around, stay close-ish if I walk about though

all my cats are moggies - just because I didn't pay £400+ apiece doesn't mean I value them less than a posh ped


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

We often chops to our neighbour when we've got ours on harnesses and leads, i dont think our neighbour is bothered by it, neither does her bichon frise - but i think if our cats started to use their garden as a toilet then they probably wouldnt be happy - i wouldnt blame them either.

It took me about 3 years to have another cat/s and made the concientious decision of keeping them in and using harnesses with them.

In my line of work, it is horrendous to take a call from a person who has lost a cat and who are ringing in to see if they have been picked up from the highway - believe me it is heartbreaking when you have to say yes to that person that unfortunately a cat fitting this description has been found 

Likewise when they have been either poisoned or shot at - this is now even happening to dogs in our area, and with this in mind, if some one thinks me crazy for using a harness, then so be it but i keep my pets safe and out of danger


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## K337 (May 20, 2011)

I used to walk Bloo out the front and the kids on our block loved it. We would stop by the lady at the end of the road and she would come out and have a fuss and then ask if Bloo can have a bizarre treat (for a cat) like icecream 
Our neighbours had a beautiful old golden and Bloo would always get very excited if he got to say hi and have a good sniff and a few licks.

The street rarely had anyone else walking a pet on it, but if a new dog was there I'd pick Bloo up and go back inside, otherwise he would start pulling at the lead and try to meet the new dog.

We moved to a place with a bigger backyard and a lot more dogs walking by. I only take Bloo out the back now, and he still gets excited if next doors kids or small dog comes out :001_rolleyes: Works for him and I get my retriever fix from the local dog park


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!  

They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!
> 
> They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


Wow, just wow :mad5:


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!
> 
> They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


I'm fairly sure people with land/smallholdings etc are encouraged to "support" feral cats by letting them live in their outbuildings/ supplementing their diet, in return for the feral cats controlling the vermin population. I can't say I have a problem with that arrangement.


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!
> 
> They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


Same goes for stray dogs i suppose.

With cats you get the imbeciles who are not prepared to get their cats fixed, who when they have lost their "fluffy kitten appeal" who boot them out cause they cant be ar$ed to look after them caise its pregnant by a stray who has been thrown out previously. - its what you call a vicious circle, just because someone hasnt had their cat done, the majoritu of owners have the welfare of their animals at heart and do this, unless they are used for breeding.

Pity what you say cant be put towards ferral kids and scum


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

welshjet said:


> Same goes for stray dogs i suppose.
> 
> With cats you get the imbeciles who are not prepared to get their cats fixed, who when they have lost their "fluffy kitten appeal" who boot them out cause they cant be ar$ed to look after them caise its pregnant by a stray who has been thrown out previously. - its what you call a vicious circle, just because someone hasnt had their cat done, the majoritu of owners have the welfare of their animals at heart and do this, unless they are used for breeding.
> 
> Pity what you say cant be put towards ferral kids and scum


Not to mention in most areas there is a programme that spays/neuters feral cats and then releases them so that they can control the population, wish they would do that with certain types of people but then this thing called human rights comes into play


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

Are you kidding me what next you'll be telling us to cull the ferals
the RSPCA will no longer deal with ferals so all the small rescues are trying to take them in people feed them because its better than them starving to death i gave feral fosters who are no longer feral now they have turned into loving cats


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## LolaBoo (May 31, 2011)

Our 3 boys are indoor cats never even thought about letting them out 
But if we had we would have walked them not let run free in my views my cats are just as precious as our dog and i wouldnt let her roam the streets on her own 

My grandad when i was growing up always walked his cats on a lead nobody took a 2nd glance and that was in the 70s


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Jazmine said:


> I'm fairly sure people with land/smallholdings etc are encouraged to "support" feral cats by letting them live in their outbuildings/ supplementing their diet, in return for the feral cats controlling the vermin population. I can't say I have a problem with that arrangement.


I wouldn't say "encouraged" to support as it is a cost effective solution to loss of feed and potential desease contamination, and this is by no means the same as urban ferral cats so I don't have an issue with the above situation as they tend to be managed to an extent i.e. neutured and vaccinated.



welshjet said:


> Same goes for stray dogs i suppose.
> 
> With cats you get the imbeciles who are not prepared to get their cats fixed, who when they have lost their "fluffy kitten appeal" who boot them out cause they cant be ar$ed to look after them caise its pregnant by a stray who has been thrown out previously. - its what you call a vicious circle, just because someone hasnt had their cat done, the majoritu of owners have the welfare of their animals at heart and do this, unless they are used for breeding.
> 
> Pity what you say cant be put towards ferral kids and scum


So why provide resource to support the population if it is the result of irresponsible owners, in my eyes supporting a ferral population of cats in this way without control is irresponsible in itself as they need to be managed to an extent to prevent desease.



B3rnie said:


> Not to mention in most areas there is a programme that spays/neuters feral cats and then releases them so that they can control the population, wish they would do that with certain types of people but then this thing called human rights comes into play


Do you mean they control the popultaion of cats or the cats control the population of another species?


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!
> 
> They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


With that theory, lets just call all the Animal Rescue centres and tell them to put all the animals that come into their care to sleep!!!!! 

Unbelievable!!!! 

Most 'feral' cats were once domesticated pets that pathetic owners have decided they no longer want and just put them out of the home. Cats are so easy to come by - because there are no proper governing laws to prevent that in this country - so people don't put the same level of care into looking after them. They don't spay or neuter them which would help to reduce the problem. Easy come easy go is how many cats are treated.

Responsible cat owners are desperate to see tighter controls brought in but, whilst we continue to come up against ignorant attitudes like this, we won't be winning this battle any time soon.

And this from someone on a PET forum too....... sheesh!!!!!


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> REALLY??????
> 
> See this:
> 
> ...


Erm, just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion, it doesn't make them a less caring cat owner.

We live in a fairly quiet area, and my cat goes out. He wears a bell on his collar. He spends most of his day in the fields or on a nearby allotment. During the colder months he likes to stay in, but in summer he only really pops in for meals.

Do I worry about him? Yes I do, all the bloody time. Would I prefer it if he stayed in more? Again, yes, I would. BUT being inside when it's warm drives him insane, so, yes, he's allowed out. I would probably think differently if I lived in a big city, but one of my criteria when buying our house was making sure it was as cat-friendly as possible. Which ruled out main roads, bus routes, built up areas etc. I'm not saying that eliminates risk entirely, but it does help. We turned down some pretty nice houses purely because they weren't suitable for our cat!

So feel free to disagree with my decision to let my cat out, but don't for one second tell me that I don't love or care for him as much as you do about yours.


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!
> 
> They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


My auntie lives in Spain. They have many stray dogs in her area who over time tend to gather together in little packs, I suppose for safety and support. They work to neuter, train and rehome them.
What is your view in this? Are they wasting their time? Should they leave the dogs (including pregnant ones and puppys) to just starve to death? After all, it would be much cheaper ....


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I wouldn't say "encouraged" to support as it is a cost effective solution to loss of feed and potential desease contamination, and this is by no means the same as urban ferral cats so I don't have an issue with the above situation as they tend to be managed to an extent i.e. neutured and vaccinated.
> 
> So why provide resource to support the population if it is the result of irresponsible owners, in my eyes supporting a ferral population of cats in this way without control is irresponsible in itself as they need to be managed to an extent to prevent desease.


So are you suggesting that these cats deserve to be starved?
Would you suggest that to all strays or is that opinion kept just for the cats??


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

MoggyBaby said:


> With that theory, lets just call all the Animal Rescue centres and tell them to put all the animals that come into their care to sleep!!!!!
> 
> Unbelievable!!!!


Please point out to me so it is very clear to see where I said anything about being put to sleep or are you putting your own words into my statements?



MoggyBaby said:


> Most 'feral' cats were once domesticated pets that pathetic owners have decided they no longer want and just put them out of the home. Cats are so easy to come by - because that are no proper governing laws to prevent that in this country - so people don't put the same level of care into looking after them. They don't spay or neuter them which would help to reduce the problem. Easy come easy go is how many cats are treated.
> 
> Responsible cat owners are desperate to see tighter controls brought in but, whilst we continue to come up against ignorant attitudes like this, we won't be winning this battle any time soon.
> 
> And this from someone on a PET forum too....... sheesh!!!!!


Oh deary deary me.

I have had cats or been in a house with cats since I was born and every single cat that has been in the same house as me has been neutered, including the two ferrals I rescued after the litter was reported. My opinion on this is not froma "dog-biased" attitude or any other form other than that of the welfare for the cats.

I bet the attitude would soon change if folk's domestic cats contracted a fatal decease from an over populated colony of ferrals that arrose from supplimented resource which, if stopped and the colony reported, would also *help reduce the problem*

Most ferral cats were not once domesticated, they were born wild, reared wild and are vastly different to stray cats which WERE once domesticated cats.

There are charities and organisation out there wiling to help and support the issue (I have volunteered for a few) so report the colony, don't just feed it as you are only making things worse for the cats long term and possibly for your own cats.


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## scatchy (Nov 29, 2011)

Nicky10 said:


> Indoor why kill your pet by throwing it outside? But if you are going to throw it out then take responsibility for what it does


My cats are outdoor cats but I do not throw them outside.
I have a cat flap and they can choose to go out if they want and come in when they want

As for the issue of cats pooing in peoples gardens - yes it is annoying but dog owners should remember that many dog owners allow their dogs to poo in public places and do not clear up after them - just as annoying.

Also dogs are frequently a nuisance by barking and they don't even have to come into your garden to annoy you in that way.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Erm, just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion, it doesn't make them a less caring cat owner.
> 
> We live in a fairly quiet area, and my cat goes out. He wears a bell on his collar. He spends most of his day in the fields or on a nearby allotment. During the colder months he likes to stay in, but in summer he only really pops in for meals.
> 
> ...


You have missed my point Jazmine.

I was responding the line "Cats can fend for themselves...." which suggested that cats can go anywhere, anytime and in any place and will always be totally safe - because they can 'fend for themselves'. Sensible folks know that most of the time this is not the case.

Now _you_ have taken the time to ensure the area you live in IS safe for your cat. You had that in mind when you bought your home.

But *IF* you found that you *HAD* to move into a city environment where the street was busier and less safe for your cat to be out - would you STILL let him roam as he does now or would you look at other alternatives to try and guarantee his safety?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I bet at one point people thought it stupid to put a dog on a leash and take it for a walk instead of letting it out and letting it roam as it pleased.

Personally I'm all for indoor cats. I have a fear of cats in general and will cross the street to avoid them if at all possible. I've been viciously attacked twice by cats and had countless others take a swipe at me for passing them. I would honestly much prefer to see a GSD heading towards me than a cat. And yeah, cats sh*tting in my garden used to really annoy me. If I had allowed my dog to go into the neighbours garden and use it as a toilet there'd have been hell to pay yet apparently there's nothing wrong with a cat doing it.

And don't even get me started on the people who wanted Rupert leashed and muzzled in his own garden and even in the house if I had windows open because he'd kill a cat that wandered in! I checked the garden for cats before letting him out but apparently that's not enough.


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## welshjet (Mar 31, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> I wouldn't say "encouraged" to support as it is a cost effective solution to loss of feed and potential desease contamination, and this is by no means the same as urban ferral cats so I don't have an issue with the above situation as they tend to be managed to an extent i.e. neutured and vaccinated.
> 
> So why provide resource to support the population if it is the result of irresponsible owners, in my eyes supporting a ferral population of cats in this way without control is irresponsible in itself as they need to be managed to an extent to prevent desease.
> 
> Do you mean they control the popultaion of cats or the cats control the population of another species?


Which is why there are people, be it in a professional vocation or by volunteering to do this but until people are educated, its fighting a losing battle, it easier for some people to just throw them away without a second thought because some people just have the attitude - its just a cat,

You cant educate pork only cure it - bye!


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> There are charities and organisation out there wiling to help and support the issue (I have volunteered for a few) so report the colony, don't just feed it as you are only making things worse for the cats long term and possibly for your own cats.


Err where did anyone say that they "just" fed the ferrals, the ferrals I help to feed are watched by a local rescue, the majority of them have been neutered and then released


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

scatchy said:


> My cats are outdoor cats but I do not throw them outside.
> I have a cat flap and they can choose to go out if they want and come in when they want
> 
> As for the issue of cats pooing in peoples gardens - yes it is annoying but dog owners should remember that many dog owners allow their dogs to poo in public places and do not clear up after them - just as annoying.
> ...


At least dogs generally don't kamikaze through your fences though. The cats round here have damaged our fences more than the foxes have.

Also I've never put my hands in dog poo when planting on my own property.

And there's a cat round here that's permanently meowing to get in, it's the loudest, weirdest sounding thing.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> So are you suggesting that these cats deserve to be starved?
> Would you suggest that to all strays or is that opinion kept just for the cats??


I am suggesting they need to be reported and dealt with appropriately to prevent the issue escalating, not just fed and encouraged increase.

ANY stray/ferral/injured animal I come across is taken to the vets for treatment or if they are domesticated - a scanning, if they are not micro-chipped then I know a couple of rescues I can call upon to help out with finding an appropriate solution to the poor mite's situation.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> You have missed my point Jazmine.
> 
> I was responding the line "Cats can fend for themselves...." which suggested that cats can go anywhere, anytime and in any place and will always be totally safe - because they can 'fend for themselves'. Sensible folks know that most of the time this is not the case.
> 
> ...


If I had to move into a city environment, (which I hope to hell never happens!), my cat would go back to live with my Dad, where he originally lived. He would not be happy becoming an indoor cat, so I would consider this my only option.

The only point I was making is that it's not as black and white as "outdoor cat bad, indoor cat good". Some of us have taken the time to weigh up the situation and act accordingly.

To be honest that's the reason I stopped posting in the cat section. There's a lot of judging that goes on in there, and a lot of people who think you are an absolute demon if you decide to let your cat out, I can't be bothered with that attitude.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I am suggesting they need to be reported and dealt with appropriately to prevent the issue escalating, not just fed and encouraged increase.
> 
> ANY stray/ferral/injured animal I come across is taken to the vets for treatment or if they are domesticated - a scanning, if they are not micro-chipped then I know a couple of rescues I can call upon to help out with finding an appropriate solution to the poor mite's situation.


Please read my other post


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

hutch6 said:


> I am suggesting they need to be reported and dealt with appropriately to prevent the issue escalating, not just fed and encouraged increase.
> 
> ANY stray/ferral/injured animal I come across is taken to the vets for treatment or if they are domesticated - a scanning, if they are not micro-chipped then I know a couple of rescues I can call upon to help out with finding an appropriate solution to the poor mite's situation.


Can I just ask what you mean by "dealt with appropriately?" What do you consider the appropriate action to be?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

Jazmine said:


> If I had to move into a city environment, (which I hope to hell never happens!), my cat would go back to live with my Dad, where he originally lived. He would not be happy becoming an indoor cat, so I would consider this my only option.
> 
> The only point I was making is that it's not as black and white as "outdoor cat bad, indoor cat good". Some of us have taken the time to weigh up the situation and act accordingly.
> 
> To be honest that's the reason I stopped posting in the cat section. There's a lot of judging that goes on in there, and a lot of people who think you are an absolute demon if you decide to let your cat out, I can't be bothered with that attitude.


I only went in the cat section because I was curious about what people talked about..

I was stunned by the people on there who think it is the norm to keep their cat inside as a matter of course.

And I nearly fell off my seat at a cat wearing a harness and going for a walk lol


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

goodvic2 said:


> I only went in the cat section because I was curious about what people talked about..
> 
> I was stunned by the people on there who think it is the norm to keep their cat inside as a matter of course.
> 
> And I nearly fell off my seat at a cat wearing a harness and going for a walk lol


Still banging this drum?......


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!
> 
> They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


Are you a troll or just ignorant?
And it is feral, not ferral


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> If I had to move into a city environment, (which I hope to hell never happens!), my cat would go back to live with my Dad, where he originally lived. He would not be happy becoming an indoor cat, so I would consider this my only option.
> 
> The only point I was making is that it's not as black and white as *"outdoor cat bad, indoor cat good".* Some of us have taken the time to weigh up the situation and act accordingly.
> 
> To be honest that's the reason I stopped posting in the cat section. There's a lot of judging that goes on in there, and a lot of people who think you are an absolute demon if you decide to let your cat out, I can't be bothered with that attitude.


I never said this. I pointed out that there are environments where it really is not safe for cats to be allowed to roam free and their owners should not be judged by trying to find safer alternatives.

You say don't judge those who choose to allow free roaming - I'm saying don't judge those who don't or the other options they prefer.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

goodvic2 said:


> I only went in the cat section because I was curious about what people talked about..
> 
> I was stunned by the people on there who think it is the norm to keep their cat inside as a matter of course.
> 
> And I nearly fell off my seat at a cat wearing a harness and going for a walk lol


If that's what people want to do that's fine by me, some cats live perfectly happy lives never stepping foot outside.

What annoyed me was the attitude that indoors is the ONLY option for cats, and those who don't agree are negligent, uncaring, irresponsible cat owners. That is simply not true. An opinion is just that, and we are all entitled to our own.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

*I think this thread needs to calm down somewhat - mod, not cat owner speaking
It doesn't matter what option you chose, your pet, your choice but there is no need to berate or belittle anyone of either opinion.*


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## jo-pop (May 27, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> If that's what people want to do that's fine by me, some cats live perfectly happy lives never stepping foot outside.
> 
> What annoyed me was the attitude that indoors is the ONLY option for cats, and those who don't agree are negligent, uncaring, irresponsible cat owners. That is simply not true. An opinion is just that, and we are all entitled to our own.


I don't think that's the general view on cat forum. Many of us have cats which do go out. It's all personal choice and circumstance. Each to their own


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> I only went in the cat section because I was curious about what people talked about..
> 
> I was stunned by the people on there who think it is the norm to keep their cat inside as a matter of course.
> 
> And I nearly fell off my seat at a cat wearing a harness and going for a walk lol


They make them for rabbits as well, you know, so you can take your bunny for a walk.

I have never been a believer in cats being kept inside unless that is what they choose for themselves. I have had Betsy for two weeks now, after she spent her first two years being thrown outside, and for the first week she was quite happy exploring upstairs and sleeping on my bed. But the last few days she has been really grumpy and yesterday we could hardly get near her. She was swishing her tail and biting anybody who came close. So I took the chance and let her outside. She came back after a couple of hours, found her way in through my son's bedroom window, and she is so much happier now for having been allowed out.

I have found that cats prefer to stay in when they get old, and that's fine too, but I still feel it has to be what the cat wants, not what suits us.


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

MoggyBaby said:


> I never said this. I pointed out that there are environments where it really is not safe for cats to be allowed to roam free and their owners should not be judged by trying to find safer alternatives.
> 
> You say don't judge those who choose to allow free roaming - I'm saying don't judge those who don't or the other options they prefer.


Going back to your original post which I replied to, the only part of that I was objecting to was the statement that pretty much said "it's a harsh world out there for cats, caring owners look at alternative exercise solutions". Nowhere in that post was there any mention of different environments where it may or may not be acceptable to let your cat free roam, that was my only objection.

Indoors or outdoors, I have no problem with either, providing the cat is happy with it.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> So why provide resource to support the population if it is the result of irresponsible owners, in my eyes supporting a ferral population of cats in this way without control is irresponsible in itself as they need to be managed to an extent to prevent desease.


What "desease"? You mean feral cats? I have been working with feral cats for years and some of my associates have been doing so for 20 years. None of them has ever caught a disease from these cats. If you are talking about FELV/FIV incidences, then it is not much higher in feral cat populations than domestic house cats. On the other hand, I have caught colds and flu a number of times from my fellow humans, my husband got athletes foot in the gym and go to any sexual health clinic and hear about some of the diseases you can get from your nice and "clean" fellow human.
You are speaking from a position of total ignorance. My feral work is not about "encouraging" feral cats, it is about keeping them healthy by spaying and neutering as many as I can, to keep them from succumbing to FIV/FELV. What are you doing about the problem aside from talking through your a**e?


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> They make them for rabbits as well, you know, so you can take your bunny for a walk.
> 
> I have never been a believer in cats being kept inside unless that is what they choose for themselves. I have had Betsy for two weeks now, after she spent her first two years being thrown outside, and for the first week she was quite happy exploring upstairs and sleeping on my bed. But the last few days she has been really grumpy and yesterday we could hardly get near her. She was swishing her tail and biting anybody who came close. So I took the chance and let her outside. She came back after a couple of hours, found her way in through my son's bedroom window, and she is so much happier now for having been allowed out.
> 
> I have found that cats prefer to stay in when they get old, and that's fine too, but I still feel it has to be what the cat wants, not what suits us.


Rep for you!

Maybe one day we'll agree on the man himself (CM) LOL :biggrin5:


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

goodvic2 said:


> Rep for you!
> 
> *Maybe one day we'll agree on the man himself (CM) LOL *:biggrin5:


Yeah, and there are fairies down the bottom of my garden


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> Yeah, and there are fairies down the bottom of my garden


I can live in hope..


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

Jazmine said:


> Can I just ask what you mean by "dealt with appropriately?" What do you consider the appropriate action to be?


Well the first step would be to neuter and vaccinate to prevent the spreading of desease amongst other animals be it domestic, stray or feral and other species that can be directly or indirectly affected by the by-products of the animal (mites, flees, ticks, worms etc).

Following on from that it would then be dependent on the environemntal impact the population has on the surrounding area and if a suitable solution could be found. If the popultaion is found to be carrying fatal deseases or suffering abnormalities casuing disabilities due to inbreeding then the most humane thing to do would be to terminate the colony to prevent the spread and suffering. Every situation would require careful consideration as to the variables and factors concerning the impact of the population.

Don't get me wrong (which many of you seem to have) I am all for pets and animals but we are talking about an apex predator in our environment with the ability to desimate the populations of many species, it is not an indigeous species so I don't belive in it being left unchecked or encouraged. Scottish Wilds are indigenous and therefore are controlled by naturally occuring prey numbers sometimes affected by man but only come into season once a year as apposed to the domestic cat's twice. The opportunities presented to the feral,stray and domesticated cat are manmade and therefore we are responsible for the outcome of the actions and detrimental effects our introductions have on the species we share this land with.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Well the first step would be to neuter and vaccinate to prevent the spreading of desease amongst other animals be it domestic, stray or feral and other species that can be directly or indirectly affected by the by-products of the animal (mites, flees, ticks, worms etc).
> 
> Following on from that it would then be dependent on the environemntal impact the population has on the surrounding area and if a suitable solution could be found. If the popultaion is found to be carrying fatal deseases or suffering abnormalities casuing disabilities due to inbreeding then the most humane thing to do would be to terminate the colony to prevent the spread and suffering. Every situation would require careful consideration as to the variables and factors concerning the impact of the population.
> 
> Don't get me wrong (which many of you seem to have) I am all for pets and animals but we are talking about an apex predator in our environment with the ability to desimate the populations of many species, it is not an indigeous species so I don't belive in it being left unchecked or encouraged. Scottish Wilds are indigenous and therefore are controlled by naturally occuring prey numbers sometimes affected by man but only come into season once a year as apposed to the domestic cat's twice. The opportunities presented to the feral,stray and domesticated cat are manmade and therefore we are responsible for the outcome of the actions and detrimental effects our introductions have on the species we share this land with.


You have made some good points. Just a little abrupt to start with!

Not that I can criticise! Lol


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Jazmine said:


> If that's what people want to do that's fine by me, some cats live perfectly happy lives never stepping foot outside.
> 
> What annoyed me was the attitude that indoors is the ONLY option for cats, and those who don't agree are negligent, uncaring, irresponsible cat owners. That is simply not true. An opinion is just that, and we are all entitled to our own.


Nobody said that. In my country, as in the UK, most cats are outdoor/indoor cats. That's fine with me. Some people just choose to keep their cats indoors, and have good reasons for doing so.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> Well the first step would be to neuter and vaccinate to prevent the spreading of desease amongst other animals be it domestic, stray or feral and other species that can be directly or indirectly affected by the by-products of the animal (mites, flees, ticks, worms etc).
> 
> Following on from that it would then be dependent on the environemntal impact the population has on the surrounding area and if a suitable solution could be found. If the popultaion is found to be carrying fatal deseases or suffering abnormalities casuing disabilities due to inbreeding then the most humane thing to do would be to terminate the colony to prevent the spread and suffering. Every situation would require careful consideration as to the variables and factors concerning the impact of the population.
> 
> Don't get me wrong (which many of you seem to have) I am all for pets and animals but we are talking about an apex predator in our environment with the ability to desimate the populations of many species, it is not an indigeous species so I don't belive in it being left unchecked or encouraged. Scottish Wilds are indigenous and therefore are controlled by naturally occuring prey numbers sometimes affected by man but only come into season once a year as apposed to the domestic cat's twice. The opportunities presented to the feral,stray and domesticated cat are manmade and therefore we are responsible for the outcome of the actions and detrimental effects our introductions have on the species we share this land with.


Grey squirrels aren't indigenous either does that mean we should just cull the lot too 

You seem to be completely ignoring the posts that are saying that no one JUST feeds ferals, we work with groups to HELP ferals


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

hutch6 said:


> Well the first step would be to neuter and vaccinate to prevent the spreading of desease amongst other animals be it domestic, stray or feral and other species that can be directly or indirectly affected by the by-products of the animal (mites, flees, ticks, worms etc).
> 
> Following on from that it would then be dependent on the environemntal impact the population has on the surrounding area and if a suitable solution could be found. If the popultaion is found to be carrying fatal deseases or suffering abnormalities casuing disabilities due to inbreeding then the most humane thing to do would be to terminate the colony to prevent the spread and suffering. Every situation would require careful consideration as to the variables and factors concerning the impact of the population.
> 
> Don't get me wrong (which many of you seem to have) I am all for pets and animals but we are talking about an apex predator in our environment with the ability to desimate the populations of many species, it is not an indigeous species so I don't belive in it being left unchecked or encouraged. Scottish Wilds are indigenous and therefore are controlled by naturally occuring prey numbers sometimes affected by man* but only come into season once a year as apposed to the domestic cat's twice.* The opportunities presented to the feral,stray and domesticated cat are manmade and therefore we are responsible for the outcome of the actions and detrimental effects our introductions have on the species we share this land with.


Just to let you know - unspayed domestic cats will come on call (in season in dog terms) every 4 weeks or so until mated, not twice a year.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

koekemakranka said:


> Are you a troll or just ignorant?
> And it is feral, not ferral


I'll let you decide.


koekemakranka said:


> What "desease"? You mean feral cats? I have been working with feral cats for years and some of my associates have been doing so for 20 years. None of them has ever caught a disease from these cats. If you are talking about FELV/FIV incidences, then it is not much higher in feral cat populations than domestic house cats. On the other hand, I have caught colds and flu a number of times from my fellow humans, my husband got athletes foot in the gym and go to any sexual health clinic and hear about some of the diseases you can get from your nice and "clean" fellow human.
> You are speaking from a position of total ignorance. My feral work is not about "encouraging" feral cats, it is about keeping them healthy by spaying and neutering as many as I can, to keep them from succumbing to FIV/FELV. What are you doing about the problem aside from talking through your a**e?


Not supporting an alien population which causes issue for other domestic species I guess.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

lymorelynn said:


> Just to let you know - unspayed domestic cats will come on call (in season in dog terms) every 4 weeks or so until mated, not twice a year.


Well there you go then. All the more reason to manage them.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Well the first step would be to neuter and vaccinate to prevent the spreading of desease amongst other animals be it domestic, stray or feral and other species that can be directly or indirectly affected by the by-products of the animal (mites, flees, ticks, worms etc).
> 
> Following on from that it would then be dependent on the environemntal impact the population has on the surrounding area and if a suitable solution could be found. If the popultaion is found to be carrying fatal deseases or suffering abnormalities casuing disabilities due to inbreeding then the most humane thing to do would be to terminate the colony to prevent the spread and suffering. Every situation would require careful consideration as to the variables and factors concerning the impact of the population.


There isin't a cat lover here would does not want to see a programme, such as you state above, in place but the government won't spend funds on it and the animal charities are far too stretched to be able to finance it themselves.

The RSPCA & CPL make a sort of an effort - some areas being better than others. They set traps to ensnare the ferals, check them for diseases and then neuter them. If healthy & disease free, they will be returned to the wild. Some smaller rescues will try to tame them with a view to rehoming them.

Nobody WANTS to see wild, homeless cats. Those who feed them quite often do so with a view to either trying to tame them enough to be able to get them neutred or trying to get them into a rescue.

Had you put your original argument over this eloquently, you would have had more favourable responses.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

B3rnie said:


> Err where did anyone say that they "just" fed the ferrals, the ferrals I help to feed are watched by a local rescue, the majority of them have been neutered and then released


Exactly. Neutering and spaying of feral cats is as important to me as the feeding.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> Well there you go then. All the more reason to manage them.


And going back to my original reply to you - until the government passes some kind of law that does this, it will not happen!!!! Too many irresponsible people get cats because 'the kids fancied one' and don't look into the bigger picture. As soon as they realise the comittment required, the cat is out on its ear and becomes yet another statistic in the ever-expanding stray cat problem.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> I am suggesting they need to be reported and dealt with appropriately to prevent the issue escalating, not just fed and encouraged increase.
> 
> ANY stray/ferral/injured animal I come across is taken to the vets for treatment or if they are domesticated - a scanning, if they are not micro-chipped then I know a couple of rescues I can call upon to help out with finding an appropriate solution to the poor mite's situation.


Oh dearie dearie me. You don't know much about feral cats, do you? Are you suggesting they get put down then? You can't be seriously suggesting that feral cats can be rehomed successfully, do you? And then, when they have been got rid of....when you have a rat and mouse explosion...who are you going to call? MMMMMMM?????


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

*I think the feral issue is a whole other debate which perhaps ought to have a thread of its own. It's not the issue that started this thread that's for sure.*


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> Grey squirrels aren't indigenous either does that mean we should just cull the lot too
> 
> You seem to be completely ignoring the posts that are saying that no one JUST feeds ferals, we work with groups to HELP ferals


I class Grey Squirrels as vermin so your call on that one.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

koekemakranka said:


> Oh dearie dearie me. You don't know much about feral cats, do you? Are you suggesting they get put down then? You can't be seriously suggesting that feral cats can be rehomed successfully, do you? And then, when they have been got rid of....when you have a rat and mouse explosion...who are you going to call? MMMMMMM?????


Please point out in my post anywhere where I have mentioned being put down or rehomed?

In fact, please point out anywhere in any of my posts regarding my opinion on this where I have said that they need to be put down or any cat that isn't showing signs of suffering needs to be put down? I think you may have injected that meaning yourselves.

Can a feral cat that is living on a proposed demolision site not be relocated to a farm if required after a veterinary check and appropriate operation?

Nobody can have a difference of opinion in any shape or form regardless if they are looking at the bigger picture of the detrimental effects one action has on another.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> I class Grey Squirrels as vermin so your call on that one.


-Sigh-

I think you are missing the point a little bit there, never mind...


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## Faerie Queene (Dec 30, 2008)

Phew!

I started to read this thread when it's last page was #11.
It's taken me forever to catch up, with the thread now standing at page#16.

I have to pop out to the shops, so could you all be ever so kind and not post until I get back?

Thank you in advance.


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## Jugsmalone (Apr 11, 2011)

Faerie Queene said:


> Phew!
> 
> I started to read this thread when it's last page was #11.
> It's taken me forever to catch up, with the thread now standing at page#16.
> ...


I'm just about to post my 20th reply! lol


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Faerie Queene said:


> Phew!
> 
> I started to read this thread when it's last page was #11.
> It's taken me forever to catch up, with the thread now standing at page#16.
> ...


If you change your settings to more posts per page, it might not seem so bad. For me, this thread is only on page 8.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> Grey squirrels aren't indigenous either does that mean we should just cull the lot too
> 
> You seem to be completely ignoring the posts that are saying that no one JUST feeds ferals, we work with groups to HELP ferals





B3rnie said:


> -Sigh-
> 
> I think you are missing the point a little bit there, never mind...


What point were you trying to make then if I missed it?

You state another species introduced by man and asked me if we should haver a cull on those but you put the word "too" on the end implying that any previous statement by me suggested a cull of some kind on another species being dicussed. Please point out where I have called for a cull on any animal species?

I have asked various people now on numerous occasion to point out in my posts anywhere that I mention killing an animal that is healthy and not one of you have done so yet you go on about it in your replies as though I have which I find strange. Perhaps you are used to coming against the "kill policy" on this matter but you will not find that coming from me and it is not what my opinion is based around so please, take a breather, re-read my posts if you like and see if I mention killing anything healthy at all before you start kicking off with an opionion that doesn't quite match your own.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

depends on the cat

My mums cat is a moggy, offspring of 2 outdoor cats (hence the kittens ) and probably from generations of cats who have all been outside free roaming cats. He has good road sense.

my gran has show maine coons, from generations of indoor only show cats, as a result neither of them have any road sense, so she has cat harnesses and takes them for walks around her huge garden, she also has a run in her garden for them.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Personally I think it is down to individual choice. The only issue I have is OH's parents who are in their 80's and love their garden have to put up with cat poo everywhere, as I said next door know that their cats do it but just ignore it. It's nothing when its the odd cat poo once in a while but their garden is absolutely covered

They can't do anything about it either, OH has spoken to next door but nothing ever changes with them.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

im 100% for keeping cats under contol, whether thats indoors or cat proofing gardens etc, 

for a start they are a domesticated species and as such they dont belong in any eco system 'anywhere', they shouldnt be allowed to predate our on our native wildlife, wildlife has a hard enough time with all the other pressures its facing as it is, there are an estimated 10 million domestic cats in the UK..just imagine the impact they are having on not only our birds,small mammals,insects,amphibians but on our native predators who are having to compete for food with all these cats to survive! .....and not only that but look at the cats that get killed on our roads...you only have to check out the rainbow bridge section on here to see the many numbers of cats hit by vehicles...a lot of them really young animals aswell, and then theres all the other hazards they have to face, just the other day my dogs got hold of a cat on my drive...it was a horrible thing to experience, sorry but i think its really irresponsible, for many reasons, to let cats roam free


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Goldstar said:


> Personally I think it is down to individual choice. The only issue I have is OH's parents who are in their 80's and love their garden have to put up with cat poo everywhere, as I said next door know that their cats do it but just ignore it. It's nothing when its the odd cat poo once in a while but their garden is absolutely covered
> 
> They can't do anything about it either, OH has spoken to next door but nothing ever changes with them.


I know of no way to stop my cat from getting into a pooing in other people's gardens, but if any neighbour were to complain I would offer to pay toward cat repellent, something they can do themselves if the cat owner won't co-operate.


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

noushka05 said:


> im 100% for keeping cats under contol, whether thats indoors or cat proofing gardens etc,
> 
> for a start they are a domesticated species and as such they dont belong in any eco system 'anywhere', they shouldnt be allowed to predate our on our native wildlife, wildlife has a hard enough time with all the other pressures its facing as it is, there are an estimated 10 million domestic cats in the UK..just imagine the impact they are having on not only our birds,small mammals,insects,amphibians but on our native predators who are having to compete for food with all these cats to survive! .....and not only that but look at the cats that get killed on our roads...you only have to check out the rainbow bridge section on here to see the many numbers of cats hit by vehicles...a lot of them really young animals aswell, and then theres all the other hazards they have to face, just the other day my dogs got hold of a cat on my drive...it was a horrible thing to experience, sorry but i think its really irresponsible, for many reasons, to let cats roam free


I totally agree with everything above.

Both cats and dogs are domesticated species, yet it is illegal for a dog to roam , causing traffic accidents yet it is ok for a cat to do it. Many people are disgusted when a dog chases and kills wildlife, claiming it's wrong and owners should have their dogs under control - yet it is ok for a cat to do the same because it's 'natural' and cat owners are exempt from the same responsibilities.

I dont own cats, although I have done in the past (one of which got killed on a local road at a very young age) and I wouldnt choose to own one in the future but walking cats on a harness IMO is a very good middle ground between keeping them as house cats and letting them roam free.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Goldstar said:


> Personally I think it is down to individual choice. The only issue I have is OH's parents who are in their 80's and love their garden have to put up with cat poo everywhere, as I said next door know that their cats do it but just ignore it. It's nothing when its the odd cat poo once in a while but their garden is absolutely covered
> 
> They can't do anything about it either, OH has spoken to next door but nothing ever changes with them.


There are many cat owners who do not provide litter trays and so the cats have to go outdoors - they have no choice. Once they have put down their scent in your parents garden, they will consider this to be their loo.

Unfortunately, the cats are not in the wrong - they are only behaving as their nature dictates. 

Additionally, many owners DO provide trays but the cats don't like them and won't use them, preferring to go outside.


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## buffie (May 31, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> im 100% for keeping cats under contol, whether thats indoors or cat proofing gardens etc,
> 
> for a start they are a domesticated species and as such they dont belong in any eco system 'anywhere', they shouldnt be allowed to predate our on our native wildlife, wildlife has a hard enough time with all the other pressures its facing as it is, there are an estimated 10 million domestic cats in the UK..just imagine the impact they are having on not only our birds,small mammals,insects,amphibians but on our native predators who are having to compete for food with all these cats to survive! .....and not only that but look at the cats that get killed on our roads...you only have to check out the rainbow bridge section on here to see the many numbers of cats hit by vehicles...a lot of them really young animals aswell, and then theres all the other hazards they have to face, just the other day my dogs got hold of a cat on my drive...it was a horrible thing to experience, sorry but i think its really irresponsible, for many reasons, to let cats roam free


Excellent post,I totally agree.I can think of no other animal which has been domesticated but allowed to "free roam".


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2012)

hutch6 said:


> What point were you trying to make then if I missed it?
> 
> You state another species introduced by man and asked me if we should haver a cull on those but you put the word "too" on the end implying that any previous statement by me suggested a cull of some kind on another species being dicussed. Please point out where I have called for a cull on any animal species?
> 
> I have asked various people now on numerous occasion to point out in my posts anywhere that I mention killing an animal that is healthy and not one of you have done so yet you go on about it in your replies as though I have which I find strange. Perhaps you are used to coming against the "kill policy" on this matter but you will not find that coming from me and it is not what my opinion is based around so please, take a breather, re-read my posts if you like and see if I mention killing anything healthy at all before you start kicking off with an opionion that doesn't quite match your own.


Most charities are full to the brim, they don't have the extra funds to be helping feral cats sooo after reporting said cats what do you think happens to them?
Yes there are small groups that try their best with ferals but their resources are stretched beyond belief so by reporting these cats to organisations such as the RSPCA will be condemning these cats to death.

You suggest that you find it irresponsible that people feed feral cats, so a few have asked you should we let them starve (which you have yet to answer unless I have missed it)?
Your ideals are great, but they are just that an ideal. In reality the funds aren't there across the board so people do the best they can with the resources they have.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I know of no way to stop my cat from getting into a pooing in other people's gardens, but if any neighbour were to complain I would offer to pay toward cat repellent, something they can do themselves if the cat owner won't co-operate.


Keep your cat under control, that is one way of stopping it doing it.

Would the neighbours know it is your cat that is using their property as a toilet?

Why is it down to other people to spend their money on keeping your animal out of their property?

My dogs are out in my garden whilst I am work or at least have access to it and one will chase cats, God knows what she would do if she caught one, so I don't get cats in my garden to my knowledge but I am glad the cats stay away as it gives the local birds a bit of sanctuary.


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## 2Hounds (Jun 24, 2009)

Would be great for me if cats didn't roam, then i could just let the dogs out into the garden & not have to check first, no cleaning up stinky cat poo/dead birds or lose plants as they've dug them up. My dog has been in tussle with one of the neighbourhood cats in our garden and i had £60 vet bill for dog , cat was fine but sadly was killed on the road a few weeks after  only about a 1-2 yrs too. 

If i had a cat now i would probably opt to keep indoor and either cat proof the garden or give it an aviary to use to keep it safe and so its not fed/taken in by others. In some countries its the norm to have non-roaming cats as they also have risk of wild predators too. Our family cat disappeared when we were kids (probably killed on the road) and it was horrible not knowing


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> Most charities are full to the brim, they don't have the extra funds to be helping feral cats sooo after reporting said cats what do you think happens to them?


The same that happens to to the vast majority of stray dogs in the same situation. It is a sad state and it is irresponsible owners that are the major cause.

Yes there are small groups that try their best with ferals but their resources are stretched beyond belief so by reporting these cats to organisations such as the RSPCA will be condemning these cats to death.



B3rnie said:


> You suggest that you find it irresponsible that people feed feral cats, so a few have asked you should we let them starve (which you have yet to answer unless I have missed it)?
> Your ideals are great, but they are just that an ideal. In reality the funds aren't there across the board so people do the best they can with the resources they have.


So with charities and rescues full to the brim being unable to look after feral cats how does feeding them and giving them the potential resource to support further litters help the whole situation out which was my point?

If the colonies are reported and the animals neutered then the chances of survival are 50/50 anyway but that still does't mean they won't be damaging the numbers of other species through predation which I can't abide. The introduction of numerous species have had detrimental effects on our eco-system which have unblanaced the system to an extent that we are now feeling the effects. There are plenty of species in this nation I see as vermin and shouldn't be here and a healthy feral cat population is not vermin but it shouldn't be here because of the direct impact it has on many species of native animals that play key roles in the eco-system that every other species depends on, it all has a knock on effect. 
My dogs can chase rabbits (on land I have permission to) and grey squirrels all they want, if they catch them (haven't done yet) they are welcome to kill them if it is done swiftly.

All this has stemmed from keeping cats under control with folk using a harness and leash. I would love to see this done more and wouldn't think it as strange because I know if someone's cat got caught by one of my dogs in my garden the owner would be straight round all guns blazing or I would be made out to be a bad dog owner if I had to deliver the sad news yet most cat owners don't bat an eyelid if a cat brings home a shrew or a sparrow or a blackbird.


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## SLB (Apr 25, 2011)

I got bored after page 14 - so if I've missed something I apologise.



goodvic2 said:


> At least you have a sense of humour about it!
> 
> God forbid I ever start seeing cats and rabbits on my walks. I have enough trouble with other dogs :mellow:


We've seen ferrets on leashes (and harnesses) at Rufford park before.



hutch6 said:


> Why are people feeding and supporting ferral cats?!?!?!
> 
> They need to be reported and dealt with appropriately not encouraged and provided with the opportunity to procreate due to the availablility of food on which to provide!!! Are you folks for real or do you just have zero concern for animal welfare other than domestic species?


My Aunt fed and supported a feral cat, she then had kittens, my aunt then caught the kittens and mum and the kittens were rehomed, the mother was spayed and released again. She then moved in with my Aunt, and my Aunt left a substantial amount of money to her and the other cat she took in when she died.

IMO any feral population should be allowed to live out it's years, if it is a problem with overbreeding - then either a cull OR mass castration.. depending on the animal. IMV mass castration would be more favourable for feral cats than a cull.

My Wheatley is allowed supervised access to the garden, I live semi -rural and on a 40mph road - of which most do 60 and above. My neighbour (about half a mile away) has around 14 dogs - each of which wouldn't hesitate to take out a cat. I also live with a field on the back - leading to woodland and a river and lake. Foxes and other predators live there. Besides the fact that he hasn't been neutered yet as well.

It wouldn't be my choice to have him in the house as he is a little sh*t and dives in the bins for empty food packets and hides them under my bed - I've also found an egg carton with two broken eggs under my bed too - that he's stolen off the side and somehow managed to get upstairs. He also steals Louie's training dummies and toys, jumps on the sides.. I would love to throw (not literally) him outside so he can burn off his energy out there, but due to where I live - it isn't feasible. It was bad enough when Bambi (rabbit) escaped, to this day I want to know what happened to him, I'd be constantly worrying about Wheatley too.

I agree with Leanne, we wouldn't let our dogs do it in this day and age, so why let other domesticated animals do it. I know folk who have pens built for their cats so they can go outside and enjoy the fresh air without pooping on people's lawns, killing wildlife etc.. But I don't think it's fair for the cats to be cooped up either.


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## speug (Nov 1, 2011)

MoggyBaby said:


> There are many cat owners who do not provide litter trays and so the cats have to go outdoors - they have no choice. Once they have put down their scent in your parents garden, they will consider this to be their loo.
> 
> Unfortunately, the cats are not in the wrong - they are only behaving as their nature dictates.
> 
> Additionally, many owners DO provide trays but the cats don't like them and won't use them, preferring to go outside.


yet more proof of how weird my mum's cat is - he does like to go outside but only for short periods of time and HAS to come home to use his litter tray if he needs to go. Will come racing back in, use his tray then immediately want to go out again 

Mum's current cats were used to going out when she got them from the rescue so they are allowed out for short periods of time. Previous cats have been indoor cats as she lived in the centre of town at that point and it wouldn't have been safe for them to go out. And when I was really young my parents used to have siamese cats who went out for walks with a harness and lead, one in case he was stolen as he looked valuable (his real value was as a much loved pet and they didn't want to risk anything happening to him) and the other as much as anything because she wasn't the brightest of cats and would quite possibly have got lost if she had the chance.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

speug said:


> yet more proof of how weird my mum's cat is - he does like to go outside but only for short periods of time and HAS to come home to use his litter tray if he needs to go. Will come racing back in, use his tray then immediately want to go out again


Not so weird - I have two who do the same!!!!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I know of no way to stop my cat from getting into a pooing in other people's gardens, but if any neighbour were to complain I would offer to pay toward cat repellent, something they can do themselves if the cat owner won't co-operate.


They shouldn't have to

I would not expect my neighbors to pay for a fence to stop my dogs getting in their garden, so why the hell should I pay to stop SOMEONE ELSE'S cat coming into mine?! That is THEIR responsibility not mine!Buy any pet you want but to expect others to use their money to stop YOUR animal from entering and making a mess on your property is the height of cheek! If my rabbit got into someone's garden should I say "oh they don't listen like dogs do, if you want my rabbit to stay out of your yard you'll have to pay to put a fence up" - I don't think so! If someone said that to me I would find it near impossible not to punch them for being so ignorant!:mad5:


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I *know of no way to stop my cat from getting into a pooing in other people's gardens,* but if any neighbour were to complain I would offer to pay toward cat repellent, something they can do themselves if the cat owner won't co-operate.


You can look at cat-proofing your garden to keep Betsy safe but still allowing her the outdoor freedom that she is enjoying. 

There's a good sticky in Cat Chat with lots of ideas and suggestions on how to do this.

This is becoming a more popular choice with many different options to accomodate many gardens.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Keep your cat under control, that is one way of stopping it doing it.
> 
> Would the neighbours know it is your cat that is using their property as a toilet?
> 
> ...





colliewobble said:


> They shouldn't have to
> 
> I would not expect my neighbors to pay for a fence to stop my dogs getting in their garden, so why the hell should I pay to stop SOMEONE ELSE'S cat coming into mine?! That is THEIR responsibility not mine!Buy any pet you want but to expect others to use their money to stop YOUR animal from entering and making a mess on your property is the height of cheek! If my rabbit got into someone's garden should I say "oh they don't listen like dogs do, if you want my rabbit to stay out of your yard you'll have to pay to put a fence up" - I don't think so! If someone said that to me I would find it near impossible not to punch them for being so ignorant!:mad5:


If you had both read my post properly you would have read where I said that I, as the cat owner, would pay for it.



MoggyBaby said:


> You can look at cat-proofing your garden to keep Betsy safe but still allowing her the outdoor freedom that she is enjoying.
> 
> There's a good sticky in Cat Chat with lots of ideas and suggestions on how to do this.
> 
> This is becoming a more popular choice with many different options to accomodate many gardens.


Yes, I have looked at that and have seriously considered catproofing the garden. I have two problems with that; if another cat gets in, they can't get out; and Betsy is not interested in going in the back garden, only the front. As I said, she only went out yesterday, so time will tell.

As nearly everyone in this road has at least one dog, I doubt she will be trespassing anyway. I know I don't get any cats in my garden.


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

newfiesmum said:


> I know of no way to stop my cat from getting into a pooing in other people's gardens, but if any neighbour were to complain *I would offer to pay toward cat repellent, something they can do themselves if the cat owner won't co-operate.*





newfiesmum said:


> If you had both read my post properly you would have read where I said that I, as the cat owner, would pay for it.


Yes you would OFFER to do that but the next bit states that they can do that themsleves anyway as though it is their responsibility to keep someone else's animals out of their garden.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

One of my neighbours, mad behatch, *told* my dad (obviously knew she would get a mouthful telling me so picked on an 81 year old instead) to keep my dog on a lead as he chased her cat.

Fair point you may think - Dougie started to chase the cat when it came into MY house, other neighbours have to keep their windows closed as it goes in their house - but the amusing part she thought I should have him on a lead in MY GARDEN.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

koekemakranka said:


> What "desease"? You mean feral cats? I have been working with feral cats for years and some of my associates have been doing so for 20 years. None of them has ever caught a disease from these cats. If you are talking about FELV/FIV incidences, then it is not much higher in feral cat populations than domestic house cats. On the other hand, I have caught colds and flu a number of times from my fellow humans, my husband got athletes foot in the gym and go to any sexual health clinic and hear about some of the diseases you can get from your nice and "clean" fellow human.
> You are speaking from a position of total ignorance. My feral work is not about "encouraging" feral cats, it is about keeping them healthy by spaying and neutering as many as I can, to keep them from succumbing to FIV/FELV. What are you doing about the problem aside from talking through your a**e?


Totally agree with you!

i foster ferals and find homes and rescue back up for them and how anyone could perceive that what we do is encourage feral behaviour (i suppose ) is absurd!!

They are living creatures they deserve to be helped not tossed aside as they have already been, i do the same for dogs and dogs on death row on Facebook try and find homes for lots of dogs that are living on the streets even the ones that are feral like, so what should we leave them all to die on the street because people have an ego complex about humans being superior i guess we should leave kids on the street too now be careful don't feed them you might encourage something!

The face that these animals are on the streets relying on scraps of food is due to HUMANS we are responsible as a species and it is our responsibility to clean the mess up


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## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I forgot about cat poo in the garden - again, if dogs crapped in peoples gardens willy nilly they'd be up in arms about it - more ammunition for the dog hating public - yet cats are free to poop just where they wish 

I have a big problem with domestic/feral cats when it comes to Britains own wildcat. Only a very small percentage of Scotland's wildcats are thought to be pure, owing to the fact most are inbred with domestic cats. This just isnt right IMO.

Fortunately, we dont get cats in the garden, never have done whilst i've had dogs. But to be perfectly honest, checking for cats before I let my dogs out never enters my head. When I had my own place, my neighbour owned a cat that never strayed from her garden. I did once find it in mine, it had come through the wrought iron gate but my dogs werent out thankfully. I did warn my neighbour that her cat would be in pieces if my dogs got it so she'd be wise to keep an eye on it. I dont see it as my problem if a cat enters my property and comes face to face with my dogs. Of course i'd be mortified and wouldnt wish it to happen.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

Well in london when i walk outside my door there is dog **** everywhere not everyone picks it up


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## Jazmine (Feb 1, 2009)

koekemakranka said:


> Nobody said that. In my country, as in the UK, most cats are outdoor/indoor cats. That's fine with me. Some people just choose to keep their cats indoors, and have good reasons for doing so.


Perhaps not in this thread, I was talking about the cat forum. Plenty of people have said that on there.


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## MoggyBaby (Mar 8, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Perhaps not in this thread, I was talking about the cat forum. Plenty of people have said that on there.


Nobody in the Cat section has ever called anyone who lets their cat free roam stupid or uncaring. They will stress strongly the advantages to controlling your cats outdoor movements and suggest the options of cat runs, cat-proofing gardens or walking on harnesses. They highlight the dangers of allowing cats to free roam.

However, it is accepted that many of the members there allow their cats outdoors unsupervised and let them free roam. Difference of opinion is healthy.

It would seem though that cat owners are damned whatever they do.

Keep cats indoors - they are cruel and are restricting their cats natural instincts.

Let cats free-roam - they are condemned for allowing their cats to assault wildlife and poop in folks gardens.

Try to please everyone by exercising their cats on a harness - they are ridiculed and held up by other folks to be laughed at. Which is what started this whole thread off in the first instance!!!!


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

Ill just say this is an infinite circle of piss

No one will agree on one thing which would make the world boring.

My cats are indoor end of story, my house my rules and if someone has a problem with that they can show themselves the front door 

No my pizza has arrived and Im about to dive in! :tongue_smilie:


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## IndysMamma (Jan 15, 2009)

Miss.PuddyCat said:


> Ill just say this is an infinite circle of piss
> 
> No one will agree on one thing which would make the world boring.
> 
> ...


what topping? (yes... I'm nosy)


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## Miss.PuddyCat (Jul 13, 2009)

IndysMamma said:


> what topping? (yes... I'm nosy)


Decided to just keep it simple with pepperonni but sometimes get sausage and bacon.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

wow - 19 pages and mainly a slanging match - reminds me why I spend most of my time in the cat section despite owning a dog - and I thought we got heated over there in cat world! 

I have to say MB, JP, IM, KK, LL and all you others I can't remember the initials of - Mad Cat Ladies Rule!!!!!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

raggie doll said:


> Well in london when i walk outside my door there is dog **** everywhere not everyone picks it up


Yes but that is in a public place on a public road not someone's personal garden that they have to pay for and who may be very proud of their clean well kept grass and flower beds. That belongs to someone, the streets don't. People get p****d out of their minds and barf up in the streets, and throw half eaten food on the floor. People don't say anything about that, but I bet they would if someone leaned over their fence to barf! Both are bad obviously, but the council on their handsome wages can take care of the roads, a garden is private property. So no I don't think the fact that some people don't clean up after their dogs on a public road can be used to justify someone kicking the cat out not giving a toss if it goes to crap in somebody's garden. At the end of the day the deeds for my house stop at the fence, if someone wants to not bother clearing up after their dog on the pavement beyond my fence it is out of my control I'll just watch where I walk, but I shouldn't have to do that my own garden that I've paid for.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> but the amusing part she thought I should have him on a lead in MY GARDEN.


I've run into that attitude many times, apparently I should have had Rupert leashed and muzzled in our own house and garden just in case a cat got in. I used to check the garden before letting him out knowing full well if he caught a cat he'd kill it but no way I was keeping him leashed and muzzled 24/7!


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## Cinnebar (Nov 8, 2011)

I have a semi feral moggy who lives in the stables and she rarely ventures off my property.
We bought a Siamese and decided that he would be safer indoors. He thought otherwise!!! I have physical claw marks in 3 of my doors where he attempted escape. Eventually he figured out how to work the handles and open the doors. This would also liberate the dogs, so we had to admit defeat and put him a cat flap in. He was one of life's great hunters and almost cleared the glut of rabbits on nearby farms  He loved everyone and introduced himself to all the neighbours. Everyone loved him. He sadly died a few weeks ago of Toxoplasmosis but I am so glad that I allowed him those years of freedom and happiness.
I now have 2 rescued fluffballs that also use the cat flap. They have a litter tray indoors but rarely use it. They make all the decisions.


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## abbieandchi (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm not going to read through 19 pages of arguments because frankly I can't be bothered. I think we should all just agree to disagree because when it comes to our pets nobody appreciates being told what to do or how to do it.

If you have a cat and you want to take them on a walk then go ahead! If you want to let them roam free then go ahead, and if you want to keep them as indoor cats then you guessed it. Why should anybody tell you what to do?

Some people will agree and some won't, as long as your cat is healthy and happy then it shouldn't matter.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

so does that go for all animals then that dare enter your garden and my area has loads of cats that are outdoor cats and my garden isn't littered with ****.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

Slightly OT but I kind of agree with the whole "cats going in other peoples gardens" 

I have owned 4 cats now, 2 of which I lived with when I lived at home. The first one we got as a kitten and when she was old enough to go outside (I think we let her out soon after she had healed from her spay so she must have only been 7 months or so) we trained her to go outside. Her toilet was under the bush in our garden...to be honest I dont know too much about cats and outdoor toileting but does this mean she would go there all the time? 

The second cat we got as a stray, doesnt know how to use a litter tray and goes outside but god knows where as he originally lived at the top of the village before leaving home and deciding we were better 

My 2 now are given outdoor access but as far as I know only use their litter tray when they are inside. I havent yet taught them to go in the garden as its still cold and we are waiting on finalisation on a cat flap. Next doors cat uses our garden as a toilet which made me wonder if it would stop my 2 from going there...I would prefer it if my 2 went in my garden and nobody elses because they wont upset anybody else. 

As for ferals, my mum also had 2 of those quite recently and it was a bit of a rollercoaster for her as they turned up as kittens so she fed them and gave them shelter outside so at least they would be safe. Fast forward a few months and they were still there, upsetting the original 2...She didnt really have the land for them to live outside on but she also didnt actually want 4 cats. I think Cats Protection said they could neuter/spay but they would have to be returned..clearly they needed spaying and neutering but they couldnt be returned as it just wasnt fair on anybody to keep them outside 24/7. In the end they rehomed them to some stables which sounds like the perfect enviornment..They were given the food/vets treatement if they needed but were allowed to basically roam around not causing anybody any trouble. 

I do think with the right care they could have been turned into proper pet cats but my mum didnt want another 2 and as much as I was desperate to take them myself I was living with my bfs parents. Luckily they have gone to a great home but I do wish I could have taken them myself (I only saw them about twice but we all had a soft spot for them)


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> Can a feral cat that is living on a proposed demolision site not be relocated to a farm if required after a veterinary check and appropriate operation?
> 
> .


Inprinciple yes, in practice, no. It is extremely difficult to relocate feral cats, they will usually try to get back to their territory. Farms are ideal, but there are only so many farms, willing farmers and physical space. And what about urban cats? It seems some people think urban feral cats are rubbish and should be eliminated. I can assure you that the reason that towns and cities are not overrun with rats is because of the silent undercover work done by feral cats. I was speaking to a Portuguese supermarket owner this morning while removing a feral cat and her 5 kittens for fostering. He is not a cat person at all, but he wants the mother back after spaying because she keeps his warehouse rat-free. "Thanks to her, I don't have a rat problem". Exact quote.


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

hutch6 said:


> *Well the first step would be to neuter and vaccinate to prevent the spreading of desease *amongst other animals be it domestic, stray or feral and other species that can be directly or indirectly affected by the by-products of the animal (mites, flees, ticks, worms etc).
> 
> Following on from that it would then be dependent on the environemntal impact the population has on the surrounding area and if a suitable solution could be found. If the popultaion is found to be carrying fatal deseases or suffering abnormalities casuing disabilities due to inbreeding then the most humane thing to do *would be to terminate the colony *to prevent the spread and suffering. Every situation would require careful consideration as to the variables and factors concerning the impact of the population.
> 
> *The opportunities presented to the feral,stray and domesticated cat are manmade and therefore we are responsible for the outcome of the actions and detrimental effects our introductions have on the species we share this land with*.


1. Great idea. Who pays for this? In my case, the SPCA and other organisations have no funds so the group that I feed with raise funds or pay ouyt of their own pockets. Indeed, we have sterilised more than half of the 60 cats already. Vaccination is not an option. Apart from the prohibitive cost, how does one trap feral animals annually for these vaccinations to be administered. We are lucky to be able to trap a feral once in its lifetime for spaying/neutering. After that, they will seldom go into a trap again.

2. What you don't seem to realise that the ideal situaton for feral carers would be if there were no ferals at all. Unfortunately they are a fact of life all over the world. The moment you remove a colony, more will come to fuill the vacuum. The only option is to feed (which reduces the need to predate wildlife and keeps their immune systems resistant to disease) and to sterilise to ensure a stable population which will keep new ferals out. And yes, we do trap sick or severly injured cats for euthanasia, more often than you think.

3. I agree, it is mankind's responsibility, so I believe I am doing my share.


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## LinznMilly (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't have cats, and don't have anything against them personally, but I must say, from the POF of a dog owner, I'd like to see less free-roaming cats - for their sake.

Milly gets herself all wound up whenever she sees a cat and I won't let her go on a search and destroy mission. Max is the same, but not nearly as full on about it (he just pants heavily, bless him ). Only the other day Milly literally flipped (and when I say flipped, I mean she did a 180 and landed on her back. Luckily she wasn't hurt) because she saw a cat that she couldn't get to because she was onlead. That's not including the times I'm literally dragging her away because she focusses on the area the cats are and won't leave it. The sound she makes would fool anyone into thinking I'm torturing her, when the only thing I'm guilty of is holding onto her lead for (the cat's) dear life.  If more cats were kept in the house or in the garden, a walk with Milly would be a lot less stressful for all concerned - me, Milly and the area's cats. I know it's a selfish reason to want cats to be harnessed up or kept in the house but there'd be hell to pay if I let Milly go and do what she's been bred to do.

Having said that, when I'm out without the dogs and I see cats in the neighbourhood, I feel very differently about them. If they approach me, I'll stop and give them a bit of a pet and the "bl00dy cats" sentiment I adopt when I have Milly with me is instantly forgotten.  

Just my two penn'oth. No offence intended to anyone on here


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

its what we are aiming for there is no offence taken there i think what some of us take offence to is the anger directed at these poor things, problem is with the RSPCA being what they are they have let down 1000's of cats


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## koekemakranka (Aug 2, 2010)

Look, I hear what some of you are saying that free-roaming cats are a problem when it comes to messing in gardens. It is one of the main reasons I catproofed my garden (cats can get neither in nor out). It is not only the poo, but the fact that cats coming into my garden upset my resident cats (my neutered male cat gets especially stressed if he hears or sees a strange cat). I myself, as a cat lover, harbour evil thoughts about the local roaming unneutered tom (my ultimate plan is to trap and neuter him, regardless of whether his owners want to or not).
Many owners of free-ranging cats are unaware of what their cats get up to. At the feral colony, there are a number of housecats that wander across from their homes for social reasons. I wonder what their owners would say if they knew what kind of cats their cats are mixing with


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

People who see cats as a nuisance will always find a way to get rid of them this guy in America was victimised because of people like this A Day at the Ranch - Injustice Is Served


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## K337 (May 20, 2011)

Disney gets a :thumbup: from feral cats. They have a great trap neuter return program and feed their ferals, provide shelter and get them vaccinated. Any time the don't succeed they try to get the kittens into rescues for adoption, otherwise I imagine they join the ranks of pest control.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

newfiesmum said:


> I know of no way to stop my cat from getting into a pooing in other people's gardens, but if any neighbour were to complain I would offer to pay toward cat repellent, something they can do themselves if the cat owner won't co-operate.


Do you think it would be fair if I allowed Lucky to go over to their garden and poop and then ignore that then if they compain I can offer to pay towards a repellent. Not really acceptable IMO.

OH's parents are in their 80's and do not want cat poo all over the place!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

raggie doll said:


> so does that go for all animals then that dare enter your garden and my area has loads of cats that are outdoor cats and my garden isn't littered with ****.


No, just cats. The wildlife, like the roads, belong to no-one, not one person's responsibility. Nobody kicks them out their own door not caring to whose garden they go to. Cats belong to someone, that makes them someone's responsibility just like dogs are. If my neighbors have wild rabbits in their garden eating their plants, does that mean it's ok for me to let mine get in to do the same so I don't have to feed them? No, because the wild ones have wandered there of their own free will, I would have purposefully let mine out knowing they were going to ruin someone's garden. Besides being lucky enough to have a hedgehog, squirrel badger etc visit your garden is a privelidge, having someone else's pet messing in your yard is not.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

not all cats belong to someone many are abandoned and there are rabbits that do a runner from their gardens and destroy gardens cats are wild creatures by nature if they are let outside they are going to go in gardens. Dogs have been found running through gardens cause they have been abandoned the ones who are not owned are everyone's responsibility as human beings


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## xxflair (Jan 3, 2012)

Phew, I made it!! No joke this has taken me more or less an hour to read, yes I have no life at the minute , and wow!! What a debate, but not on just one topic but several others. 

I have one cat, one gecko and two hamsters and if I wanted to stick a lead on all four and take them for a walk I think I blooming well will 

My cat is always let out during the day, since it's all he has known, and I won't change that at this moment in time because of where we live. If my circumstances were different then I would be cat proofing my garden and taking my wee bundle of joy for a walk on a lead. 
My husband is in the army and the majority of all quarters are quiet a distance away from other residential areas. Im lucky to be living in the sticks, away from all major roads and typical yobs, so I feel I can let him out and allow him to enjoy free roaming - not that he does much of it before wanting to come back in again for cuddles with his mom . I always worry and always will worry about him because I love him so much.

No one on here has ever called me an evil cat mom for letting him out and I have found the cat boards to be a very informative and most importantly a friendly place to chat. I just don't think it's fair that a conversation started over their was brought over here and mocked, especially since the individual who started the conversation about cat leashes was asking a basic question and looking for advice!! At the end of the day we all want to do the best for our pets whether it has one, two, three or four legs. So why are we really fighting each other to put each other down when we all want the same thing? Debates are normal, very normal for the human way of life and I can't deny myself the chance to jump in head first with one, but mocking and commenting in such a way isn't.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

raggie doll said:


> not all cats belong to someone many are abandoned and there are rabbits that do a runner from their gardens and destroy gardens cats are wild creatures by nature if they are let outside they are going to go in gardens. Dogs have been found running through gardens cause they have been abandoned the ones who are not owned are everyone's responsibility as human beings


It's still not the same.

Abandoned pet: not its fault
Rabbit escaped: accidental and unintentional 
Dog got loose: accidental and unintentional 
A cat in someone else's yard: deliberate and intentional

All those examples you gave are either not the animals fault or bad luck/circumstances on the owners part. But when an owner deliberately opens the door and sends the cat out, knowing full well it most probably will go to somebody's garden where they won't have to clean up after it can not possibly be done by accident. You can't 'accidentally' open the door and shove it out.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

colliewobble said:


> It's still not the same.
> 
> Abandoned pet: not its fault
> Rabbit escaped: accidental and unintentional
> ...


What!! I don't let my cats out with the intention that they soil someone else's garden! What utter rubbish! I let my cats out because they want to go out - there's no ulterior motive there.

What I find infinitely worse than cats "trespasssing" (ha!) in someone else's gardens are the IDIOTS who let their dogs mark up against people's wheelie bins, in other people's front gardens, other people's cars etc, or the ignorant louts who don't pick up after their dogs on playing fields used by children. The dog's on a lead or at least in plain sight, so I would say THAT is deliberate and intentional.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

shamykebab said:


> What!! I don't let my cats out with the intention that they soil someone else's garden! What utter rubbish! I let my cats out because they want to go out - there's no ulterior motive there.
> 
> What I find infinitely worse than cats "trespasssing" (ha!) in someone else's gardens are the IDIOTS who let their dogs mark up against people's wheelie bins, in other people's front gardens, other people's cars etc, or the ignorant louts who don't pick up after their dogs on playing fields used by children. The dog's on a lead or at least in plain sight, so I would say THAT is deliberate and intentional.


You may not let your cat out with the intention of it going to someone's garden, but you do know that if you let it out there is a high chance that that is where it will go as you wont be able to stop it. So yes I stand by my view that someone who leaves their cat out loose is sending it to somebody's garden intentionally or not.

And however awful it is, someone not cleaning up after their dog on common public ground is not as bad nor the same as somebody's pet going on someone else's lawn. Common ground is just that common ground, if people want to spoil it for others there's not much you can do, you didn't buy the roads. But a garden is somebody's property. That somebody has had to work (possibly very hard) to pay for it and they don't want it ruining by someone else's pet.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

ok i agree with you there i don't let mine out but tbh my cats even when they have got out they come back in and use the litter so but i don't have a cat flap and unless they managed to get passed me when I'm taking in a delivery they don't go out but my reason is for them i have domesticated them they would not be good out there all the time and i don't particularly want them running into someone who takes poking in their garden to the extreme but saying that what upset me was not peoples reactions to pooping in their garden i can understand that (well i don't understand the anger towards the cat i would direct that at the humans) but many on this thread have shown a horrible attitude towards ferals and when it comes to ferals if everyone considered their responsibility we wouldn;t have such a problem, i am a crazy cat lady my cats stay in where i know where they are as if they were a dog and they are happy for it, but as someone who works in rescue I'm getting a bit sick of people directing their anger towards cats and not the humans yes cats should probably be kept in but not because some precious plants get pooped on because they need to be safe and because many people who think their plants are more important than life are out their poisoning cats


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

To some it is probably easier to them to put poison down than it is to work out who's cat it is going in their garden (and even if they did would the owner admitt it if they had a confrontation? Honestly?They'd most likely say not my cat must be someone else's). Therefore targeting the actual cat would be much more effective and easier. Yes your cat does mean a lot to you but somebody's prize winning petunia's also mean a lot to them. Fair enough you don't want anyone to harm your cat but just as fairly others don't want their lawn ruining either. Works both ways.


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## shamykebab (Jul 15, 2009)

colliewobble said:


> To some it is probably easier to them to put poison down than it is to work out who's cat it is going in their garden (and even if they did would the owner admitt it if they had a confrontation? Honestly?They'd most likely say not my cat must be someone else's). Therefore targeting the actual cat would be much more effective and easier. Yes your cat does mean a lot to you but somebody's prize winning petunia's also mean a lot to them. Fair enough you don't want anyone to harm your cat but just as fairly others don't want their lawn ruining either. Works both ways.


You can't be serious....


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

Sorry - but I'm with Colliewobble here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a dog person at heart, a cat and small furry owner currently, I don't give two craps about plants, don't have kids and I'm not squeemish. Poo doesn't bother me in the slightest.

BUT other people choose not to have cats, they choose to have nice lawns and plants, choose to feed the wild birds, choose to have a sandpit for their kids or whatever. It is their property and their stuff (plants, toys, etc) and nobody elses pet has any right whatsoever to be there!!!

What if there are children in those homes? Your cat leaves a crap in their garden, perhaps hidden from view and small child steps in it or picks it up or worse? 

Sorry, I wil absolutely never condone people resorting to abuse, poisoning etc. but these people have every right to be pi$$ed off. 

Frankly I find the attitude of "well its my cats right to roam and to crap in other people's gardens they should just put up with it" disgusting and selfish.
If they let their dog or child trepsass on someone else land, fouling and casing damage there would be hell to pay.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

If you have your own cat or dog then you are unlikely to have anyone elses's poo in your garden. 

Personally I'm always rather suspect of people who don't have animals....


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

raggie doll said:


> not all cats belong to someone many are abandoned and there are rabbits that do a runner from their gardens and destroy gardens cats are wild creatures by nature if they are let outside they are going to go in gardens. Dogs have been found running through gardens cause they have been abandoned the ones who are not owned are everyone's responsibility as human beings


Next door knows their cats poo in OH's parents garden, the have seen them many times but they choose to look the other way. As I said, there is no divider fence so they have no excuse not to pick it up when they see their own cats doing it. They have been politely asked to clean it up but they never do. They are not shy about coming over into Oh's parents garden because when Lucky was a puppy they would come and play with her.

Just to add, there was a fence up previously but the cats still climbed over to have a poo.

I do not think its fair if I'm honest. As someone else has said, what if a child were to play in their sand pit etc and got a handful of cat poo?

I can appreciate the point made about dogs peeing on bins/cars etc but that is primarily in public areas not in your own back garden. Nor is it a constant thing in your personal space on your flowers, ruining your hobbies day in day out

I pick Lucky's poo up all the time, if she goes in OH's parents garden I'm straight out there cleaning it up.


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## jenniferx (Jan 23, 2009)

When I first heard about people who never let their cats out I thought it was absurd but to be honest the more I consider it the more sense it seems to make. I think it does probably come down to the individual cat though as to what is appropriate. I remember feeling such a huge amount of stress with my last cat when she was out-which was most of the time- there are so many yobs about. 

In the end she died on the roads age four- which is no age at all. I don't know why after all the years she lived safely that she decided to head off to the nearest dual carriageway. Maybe she was chased or maybe she was after a rat or something herself. My other cat before that basically disappeared off the face of the earth  she was old (19-20) and was let out by a man laying floors in our new house and that was that. 

Similarly I have sympathy for those whose flowerbeds are ruined by cats- my gran is in her late 80's and able only to do little bits in the garden and her flowers are regularly destroyed with cats defecating in her garden. Unfortunately she lives in an area with a high population of free roaming cats.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

I live in a culdesac and there are just 4 houses, 3 of us have dogs one has cats. The cat owner seems to think its fine to have the cats roaming all the time (is that normal its always outside day & night mewing at some one elses door?). I am sure she would object if we all let our dogs loose at the front to crap in her front garden


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> I live in a culdesac and there are just 4 houses, 3 of us have dogs one has cats. The cat owner seems to think its fine to have the cats roaming all the time (is that normal its always outside day & night mewing at some one elses door?). I am sure she would object if we all let our dogs loose at the front to crap in her front garden


Maybe you should, then she might realise and consider how annoying and unpleasant it is for others.


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## xxflair (Jan 3, 2012)

Im getting sick of this thread. I've had dogs being let into my garden for it to do it's business without no concern from the owner. We even have a gate which showed me that these owners, whoever they were, opened it and allowed their dog to free reign. Every morning I would find it laying on my path or across the base of my fence. It's stopped now but still was that fair? That was a still a choice made by the owner who stepped foot onto my property without my permission. It's stopped now, thankfully, but still it was quiet annoying having to venture out and pick up another animals poo when I didn't own one myself. I see people around here all the time allowing their dogs to free roam, while the owners gladly stood on the porch watching due to the evening rolling in, and they never pick up the mess. The dogs even poo outside people's houses, sometimes on their door step which my friend witnessed, and they never had the decency to pick it up. Now that makes me mad. 

What I also don't understand about this thread is that the majority were mocking about the fact that many of us keep our cats inside and take them out on the lead and then the conversation changed to the fact that cats shouldn't be allowed to free roam?? 

Meh ... I just want to say I am a mad cat lady and a mad dog lady and have no issues with either animal


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> To some it is probably easier to them to put poison down than it is to work out who's cat it is going in their garden (and even if they did would the owner admitt it if they had a confrontation? Honestly?They'd most likely say not my cat must be someone else's). Therefore targeting the actual cat would be much more effective and easier. Yes your cat does mean a lot to you but somebody's prize winning petunia's also mean a lot to them. Fair enough you don't want anyone to harm your cat but just as fairly others don't want their lawn ruining either. Works both ways.


WOW Sorry there is NO excuse for poisoning ANY animal, there is far, far better ways to deter cats.
I don't give a flying F**K if someones flowers have been pi$$ed on, that is NOT an excuse to target an innocent animal.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> WOW Sorry there is NO excuse for poisoning ANY animal, there is far, far better ways to deter cats.
> I don't give a flying F**K if someones flowers have been pi$$ed on, that is NOT an excuse to target an innocent animal.


By normal standards no there is no excuse, but thats the risk you take because there are a lot of very strange and nasty people in the world. If your cats roam free there is always the chance they will cross the path of one of the weirdos.

I would imagine it became socially unacceptable to let dogs roam when the volume of traffic increased and made it too dangerous. Times change, look how restricted children are nowadays. If I had cats, unless I lived in the country somewhere secluded think I would be too worried letting them out


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

DoodlesRule said:


> By normal standards no there is no excuse, but thats the risk you take because there are a lot of very strange and nasty people in the world. If your cats roam free there is always the chance they will cross the path of one of the weirdos.
> 
> I would imagine it became socially unacceptable to let dogs roam when the volume of traffic increased and made it too dangerous. Times change, look how restricted children are nowadays. If I had cats, unless I lived in the country somewhere secluded think I would be too worried letting them out


My cat is kept in, and the risk of being poisoned was one of the reasons she is now kept in.
Just because others allow their cats to roam doesn't mean they deserve to have their pet poisoned  
I was replying to CW when this was said



> Fair enough you don't want anyone to harm your cat but just as fairly others don't want their lawn ruining either. Works both ways.


Do does not by any stretch of the imagination work both ways in that situation....
Pi$$ing on some flowers does NOT equate to poisoning, and comparing dogs roaming to people intentionally KILLING animals is beyond me sorry.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

I dont understand what this thread is about anymore. Its become very contradictory.

It was started primarily to mock cat owners who worry about letting their cats outs.

So far us cat owners have been told:

We are mad if use harnesses on our cats.
We are cruel if we keep them as indoor pets.
We are cruel if use a cat run.
We _should_ let our cats free roam.

We have also been told:

We _shouldnt_ let our cats free roam.
We should accept it if gardeners decide to poison our cats in favour of their prize petunias (WTF?  )

I think the only thing that hasnt been berated is people cat proofing their gardens so that the cats cant get out.

Well not everyone _can_ cat proof their garden - whats the solution to that then?


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

MCWillow said:


> Well not everyone _can_ cat proof their garden - whats the solution to that then?


You can either:

a) Garden proof your cat.

b) Live in a flat.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

hutch6 said:


> You can either:
> 
> a) Garden proof your cat.
> 
> b) Live in a flat.


A) My cats are garden proofed - its called a harness/cat run 

B) I live in a boat (which is why I cant cat proof my garden  )


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Cor, it's like cats and dogs in here!


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## hutch6 (May 9, 2008)

MCWillow said:


> A) My cats are garden proofed - its called a harness/cat run
> 
> B) I live in a boat (which is why I cant cat proof my garden  )


Dammit!!!

If I lived on a boat with a mog I wouldn't be able to resist making them a little boat too


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

FFS no one can say anything on this forum without everyone jumping on them and taking what they say out of context! I DON'T agree with poisoning animals either, but some people do. Some people are nasty and twisted and do despicable things and wouldn't hesitate to harm an animal. Not everyone likes them. I love rabbits but I also know that plenty people believe they're vermin only any good for eating. I don't agree with this at all so I don't let my rabbits wander in case they come up against someone with these views. I also love rats but know full well that if mine got to someone's house she would most likely be poisoned as to most people their vermin too. I might like them but not everyone does and some will go to extremes to get rid of them. What I meant by people poisoning cats was that some very irate gardners would think it easier to put some rat poison down rather than tracking an owner. If they're already seething they might also just do it out of spite. That DOESNT mean that I agree with this but some people do. In fact some people probably think its funny and a bit of a sport. And no I don't agree with this either. I don't agree with cats in other peoples gardens but I dont agree with twisted cruelty, my friend used a water pistol, no harm done, the cat got wet and got the message, a humane way to do it. And some people are that mad about their gardens/flowers, a long time ago my rabbit got into a neighbors garden by accident. This person was a keen gardener and told me in no uncertain terms that he'd set his dog on her or snap her neck if she got in again-and he wasn't joking. If they'd gotten this mad at a bunny who had hopped in and I'd gone straight after her, you can imagine what would be done to a cat ruining the garden.


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## vickieb (Nov 22, 2010)

a guy 2 doors down from me fires stones from a sling shot at cats as he loves bird watching, and well, cats kill birds. 

I have a VERY strong suspision this is how one of my cats died. Everyone said hit by car and went to die where she was found.....

But I beg to differ, even tho OH says im being silly.


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

I think the only solution to MY problem is to allow Lucky to poop in their garden over and over and over again and leave it fester, that will show them how it feels to be swamped in sh*t. Maybe that is the ONLY way they will get the message. 

For obvious reasons I will not be doing that but believe me I am tempted, OH's mum was only saying this morning that she caught one of them in her strawberry patch. It is not fair, whatever way anyone puts it, these pensioners choose NOT to have pets because they do not want to deal with the sh*t, so why should they be responsible for next doors cat sh*t. 

Lucky does not lay one paw in their garden. It makes me so angry that some people have the attitude of "oh well, live with it"


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Another huge factor is the amount of cats I see dead on roads. Do cats hold less of significance for safety than dogs  surely not. 

I understand the point that some dogs do wander into peoples gardens etc but this is thought of as very unnaceptable and the owner of the garden tries to do something about it, either by trying to find the dogs owner or calling the warden, that option is not available to people who are pestered by cats.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

you are right what happens with the cats is simply somoen takes them to a vet and the vet if they are half decent will contact rescues but a lot of vets just PTS


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

raggie doll said:


> you are right what happens with the cats is simply somoen takes them to a vet and the vet if they are half decent will contact rescues but a lot of vets just PTS


 I love all animals. My dad has 2 cats and I love them. I have nothing against next doors cats, its the owners that I have a problem with. A few of their cats have got run over but they just get a new kitten. Their garden has about 4 cat graves, those cats would have still been alive if they hadn't allowed them to roam 24hrs a day.


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## raggie doll (Sep 16, 2011)

i get it i have a problem with humans for these reasons i run a rescue forum and every day its dogs and cats being left for dead it makes me sick we can't blame the animals like you say but the people have a responsibility if the people are being rude about the poop or denying it but you know its them get some gloves on pick the **** up and put it in their garden lol


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> FFS no one can say anything on this forum without everyone jumping on them and taking what they say out of context! I DON'T agree with poisoning animals either, but some people do. Some people are nasty and twisted and do despicable things and wouldn't hesitate to harm an animal. Not everyone likes them. I love rabbits but I also know that plenty people believe they're vermin only any good for eating. I don't agree with this at all so I don't let my rabbits wander in case they come up against someone with these views. I also love rats but know full well that if mine got to someone's house she would most likely be poisoned as to most people their vermin too. I might like them but not everyone does and some will go to extremes to get rid of them. What I meant by people poisoning cats was that some very irate gardners would think it easier to put some rat poison down rather than tracking an owner. If they're already seething they might also just do it out of spite. That DOESNT mean that I agree with this but some people do. In fact some people probably think its funny and a bit of a sport. And no I don't agree with this either. I don't agree with cats in other peoples gardens but I dont agree with twisted cruelty, my friend used a water pistol, no harm done, the cat got wet and got the message, a humane way to do it. And some people are that mad about their gardens/flowers, a long time ago my rabbit got into a neighbors garden by accident. This person was a keen gardener and told me in no uncertain terms that he'd set his dog on her or snap her neck if she got in again-and he wasn't joking. If they'd gotten this mad at a bunny who had hopped in and I'd gone straight after her, you can imagine what would be done to a cat ruining the garden.


I am presuming that was aimed at me 
I did not take what you said out of context nor did I say that YOU agreed with poisoning animals personally.
What I couldn't get was the "oh well it happens so ya know attitude" which is what I was addressing. I don't care if people don't like cats, I also don't care if people don't like rats, what I care about is people poisoning ANY animal, wild or domestic there are far better ways to deter them than giving them a slow painful death.

Your comment of "it works both ways" was why I responded to your post.
You do know that it is against the law to knowingly poison a cat right? 
If someone chooses to poison a cat the culprit can face a fine and/or prison sentence.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> I am presuming that was aimed at me
> I did not take what you said out of context nor did I say that YOU agreed with poisoning animals personally.
> What I couldn't get was the "oh well it happens so ya know attitude" which is what I was addressing. I don't care if people don't like cats, I also don't care if people don't like rats, what I care about is people poisoning ANY animal, wild or domestic there are far better ways to deter them than giving them a slow painful death.
> 
> ...


I would imagine the majority do not get caught, they don't always poison they shoot them or let dogs get them you see it in the newspapers often enough. Doesn't bring the cat back even if they do manage to catch them


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

We used to walk our Siamese on a harness when we lived in Saudi & Bahrain, this is going back a few years & I've never thought it was unusual TBH

Our bunnies are also walked on harnesses as demonstrated here by Fang & Samson


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## dagny0823 (Oct 20, 2009)

MCWillow said:


> I dont understand what this thread is about anymore. Its become very contradictory.
> 
> It was started primarily to mock cat owners who worry about letting their cats outs.
> 
> ...


Wow, I was just catching up with the last two days of this thread, thinking it started as absurdly rude and now it's just absurd and that I would comment on it, when MCWillow has summed up the absurdity perfectly.

The illogic here seems to be that it's ridiculous to keep a cat inside or to walk it on a harness because cats are meant to roam free. But when they roam free, they are a pooping bird-slaughtering menace. Therefore, the conclusion would seem to be that cats shouldn't exist.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> I am presuming that was aimed at me
> I did not take what you said out of context nor did I say that YOU agreed with poisoning animals personally.
> What I couldn't get was the "oh well it happens so ya know attitude" which is what I was addressing. I don't care if people don't like cats, I also don't care if people don't like rats, what I care about is people poisoning ANY animal, wild or domestic there are far better ways to deter them than giving them a slow painful death.
> 
> ...


It wasnt aimed just at you, I've noticed in several places on this forum that if you express an opinion that others don't agree with,you get ripped by others.

By 'working both ways' I didn't mean people should expect to have their pets poisoned for letting them in others gardens, I meant that just as an owner loves their pet and wants them unharmed, so do people who lover their plants and don't want them ruined. Hence 'works both ways'. Some people seem to think it is their right to let their car wander and others just have to put up with them if they go in their garden, then get upset and annoyed that people want them out and will take action to make sure they stay out. If you don't want people to get irate at your cat in their yard don't let it out to go in their yard.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> It wasnt aimed just at you, I've noticed in several places on this forum that if you express an opinion that others don't agree with,you get ripped by others.
> 
> By 'working both ways' I didn't mean people should expect to have their pets poisoned for letting them in others gardens, I meant that just as an owner loves their pet and wants them unharmed, so do people who lover their plants and don't want them ruined. Hence 'works both ways'. Some people seem to think it is their right to let their car wander and others just have to put up with them if they go in their garden, then get upset and annoyed that people want them out and will take action to make sure they stay out. If you don't want people to get irate at your cat in their yard don't let it out to go in their yard.


i cant be bothered to go all the way through the thread , i don`t keep cats and i`m absolutely horrified at the suggestion that cats shouldn`t wander and should be kept in and that it`s okay to hear of them being poisoned , thats absolutely not on. if i don`t want cats in my garden , which i don`t seem to get anyway [might have something to do with me scattering snake poo all around it] then i`d find an ethical way of keeping them out. i`d also never ever dream of setting dogs loose if there were a cat in my garden either , but some seem to think that`s acceptable behaviour , at the end of the day whether we like it or not cats have wandered the land for centuries , it`s what cats do and i`d never dream of telling anyone to keep their cats in just because i didn`t want them in my garden , at the end of the day they are someones beloved pets and i`d never bring harm to someone elses animal in such a cruel dispicable way you know sometimes words fail me and this is one of those times


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

I'm not a cat person myself..but i expect that the majority of cat owners on here feel as strongly about their cats as i do my dogs..i would never consider letting my dogs out for a wander because of what could happen to them...so i can understand why a lot of cat owners don't either


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

Do cat repellents work? If so then my OH can go and ask the neighbour to buy some for his parents garden (or at the very least pay half for them) 

Its ok to say that cats should be allowed to sh*t where they please but where does the responsibility lie if a child got ill from playing in their sand pit that the neighbours cat has sh*t in?


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

Goldstar said:


> Do cat repellents work? If so then my OH can go and ask the neighbour to buy some for his parents garden (or at the very least pay half for them)
> 
> Its ok to say that cats should be allowed to sh*t where they please but where does the responsibility lie if a child got ill from playing in their sand pit that the neighbours cat has sh*t in?


i have NEVER seen a cat in my garden and all i do is recycle my snakes substrates poo an all into the garden


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## Goldstar (Nov 12, 2011)

diablo said:


> i have NEVER seen a cat in my garden and all i do is recycle my snakes substrates poo an all into the garden


I have been reading up on natural repellents like citrus peel and cinnamon


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> It wasnt aimed just at you, I've noticed in several places on this forum that if you express an opinion that others don't agree with,you get ripped by others.
> 
> By 'working both ways' I didn't mean people should expect to have their pets poisoned for letting them in others gardens, I meant that just as an owner loves their pet and wants them unharmed, so do people who lover their plants and don't want them ruined. Hence 'works both ways'. Some people seem to think it is their right to let their car wander and others just have to put up with them if they go in their garden, then get upset and annoyed that people want them out and will take action to make sure they stay out. If you don't want people to get irate at your cat in their yard don't let it out to go in their yard.


maybe it is the way you are wording said opinions that causes people to jump on them, I have been here long enough and I can honestly say I don't see what you are describing, maybe that is because the majority of the time I hide down in small animals :lol:

And what I am saying is that just because an innocent animal ruins some poxy plants it does not give them the right to harm any animal, pets or otherwise.
I have no problem with people becoming irate, I have a HUGE problem with people believing it is their right to harm an animal that apparently trespasses (like any animal has a clue what this trespassing malarky is ) and yes squirting them with water also comes into that category.

As I have said many times in this thread my cat is a house cat for many reasons, what I am trying to get across is NO ONE should have to keep their animals in because another HUMAN thinks it is acceptable to harm them for a reason as pathetic as a few plants were pi$$ed on.
I fully understand why people get annoyed because their gardens are being used as a litter tray by other peoples pets but that does NOT make it their right to cause harm not only is it illegal it is morally wrong.

So no it does not work both ways in this scenario at all.
Just to remind you that I am not jumping on your post, nor am I ripping it to shreds, I am just explaining the part that I found disturbing due to how it read


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Like I said I don't agree with poisoning them. I don't howver see that spraying something with water does any harm, that's just being silly. I have seen many dog training programs on using sprayed water as a deterrent, even my rabbit books advise it on indoor rabbits who are chewing cables and furniture whoever came to harm by getting a bit wet? If that was the case we'd never go out when it's raining. If you dont agree with any kinds of an 'unpleasant shock' how would you keep them out then? And saying no animals not even those that aren't pets shouldn't be dealt with? So if you had wild disease carrying rats in your house you wouldn't put poison down then? Or what about a farmer whose livestock and livelihood keeps being killed by foxes, should he not sit in wait with his dogs and a gun, or just let them keep killing them cos its 'wrong to harm any animal?' 

You cant protect everything in the world, if you get someone who doesn't want somebody's cat crapping in their garden, their gonna find a way (ethical or not) to stop it regardless of what you or I or anyone else says.


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## paddyjulie (May 9, 2009)

if someone squirted water in my dogs face i would give them a smack in theirs 

but then again i am very protective of mine especially Mavis ..who would be terrified if someone did this to her


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Like I said I don't agree with poisoning them. I don't howver see that spraying something with water does any harm, that's just being silly. I have seen many dog training programs on using sprayed water as a deterrent, even my rabbit books advise it on indoor rabbits who are chewing cables and furniture whoever came to harm by getting a bit wet? If that was the case we'd never go out when it's raining. If you dont agree with any kinds of an 'unpleasant shock' how would you keep them out then? And saying no animals not even those that aren't pets shouldn't be dealt with? So if you had wild disease carrying rats in your house you wouldn't put poison down then? Or what about a farmer whose livestock and livelihood keeps being killed by foxes, should he not sit in wait with his dogs and a gun, or just let them keep killing them cos its 'wrong to harm any animal?'
> 
> You cant protect everything in the world, if you get someone who doesn't want somebody's cat crapping in their garden, their gonna find a way (ethical or not) to stop it regardless of what you or I or anyone else says.


I also would go a bit doo lally if I ever saw you squirt one of my rabbits with water but that is another story 
The reason you should never squirt water at a cat is you have no idea on that cats medical history, you have no idea if that cat can get in the warm and dry and quite frankly it isn't your animal to "discipline" 
You can actually give a cat a bad respiratory infection at best and at worst they could develop full blown pneumonia if they are left wet and cold.

And just to let you know I am a full blown country girl so I am fully aware of how to deter unwanted animals, what I object to is people using methods that cause prolonged pain. And with poison not only does that involve a very slow painful death for the animal that eats it, it also effects any other animal that may come across the carcass.
Most (not all) farmers don't use poison these days, they use dogs, guns and traps which is a pretty instant death if done properly 

As for the last part of your comment, I am fully aware that I can't protect everything, but that does not mean we have to accept it.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

If it's not my animal to discipline,it's not my animal to clean up after either.

So basically it's not ok for me to deter it from my yard cos it doesn't belong to me, is NOTHING whatsoever my responsibility in any way, but it's perfectly ok for me to be doing the owners job of clearing up after it? :mad2:


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> If it's not my animal to discipline,it's not my animal to clean up after either.
> 
> So basically it's not ok for me to deter it from my yard cos it doesn't belong to me, is NOTHING whatsoever my responsibility in any way, but it's perfectly ok for me to be doing the owners job of clearing up after it? :mad2:


No 
If you had read my replies I have said that I understand why people get annoyed when their gardens are used as litter trays by other peoples pets. I have *NO* problems with people using humane ways to deter cats or other animals, what I object to is people thinking it is within their right to HARM and potentially *KILL* them.

As I have said, I only addressed your post because it came across that you understood why people poisoned cats, which is what I disagree with.
IMO there is NO reason to poison ANY animal, I really don't understand how any animal lover (not directed at you, this is general) can understand or condone people causing harm to animals because they foul in a garden, it really is beyond me :confused1:


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## catguy (Mar 16, 2012)

Wow what a thread! So much arguing! 

All the cats I've ever known have been allowed to roam freely and we never thought any different, however I guess I've changed my stance recently, I can understand the views of those who are annoyed by the neighbourhood cats using their backyard as a latrine, it's happened to me in the past when I've been catless and it's annoying...

my sister kept 3 cats at one time but she lived near a busy road and one by one they all succumbed... 

in an ideal world cats would be free to roam freely and safely but unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world, millions of years of evolution have enabled the cat to survive the hazards of the natural world but 100 or so years ago man invented the motor car and nothing in their genes has enabled them to deal with that and as the world gets increasingly urbanized it's only going to get more dangerous for our pets. 

I can understand why people keep their cats in, for safeties sake... but personally it makes me sad that these cats will never feel the sun on their backs unless it's through a window or grass under their feet... I've also heard they tend to get overweight due to lack of exercise and suffer more from allergies... (dust/mites?)

The compromise solution for me would be a cat-proofed garden where they can get some experiance of the open air but can't escape the property... if people want to take them for a walk and it works for them, good for them. It's not exactly common though I've only ever seen it once many many years ago and it caused me to do a double take, a triple even...

that is all. :mellow:

P.S. I've got to take issue with all the dog owners who think it's acceptable to let their dogs crap all over the street/parks, it may be a public space but it's not owned by "nobody", it's owned by everybody! Nothing annoys me more than like last summer I go sit on the grass, after taking a good look to make sure I'm not going to sit in something unpleasant, put my hand down only find it sink into a pile of concealed dog excrement!


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> If it's not my animal to discipline,it's not my animal to clean up after either.
> 
> *So basically it's not ok for me to deter it from my yard cos it doesn't belong to me, is NOTHING whatsoever my responsibility in any way, but it's perfectly ok for me to be doing the owners job of clearing up after it?* :mad2:


if you can`t be bothered to ethically cat proof your own garden , it is your garden so why not ? next door neighbours cat occasionally suns himself laying on the bonnet or roof of my car , don`t bother me , he did occasionally use the front garden as a litter tray where it`s gravelled around the borders , were not a problem i just went out there with a hand shovel and a pair of rubber gloves scoop it up and bag it , put it in the bin , mo major drama! hasn`t happened for a while now , i get on with my neighbours so it just were not worth falling out with them over their cat , plus i quite like him anyway , he`ll often come and sit by me on the steps when i`m having a 5 minute blow after clearing litter thats blown in the front garden which bothers me more than a tiny piece of cat poo 
you can`t ask the entire cat population who let their cats out to follow them round everywhere they go with a poop scoop and a bag , blimey would be like watching the grand national everyday round here  it`s just cat poo , it`s not gonna kill you , if they`ve sprayed just go out there and pour some vinegar and water over area`s in which they`ve sprayed i can`t honestly see what the big deal is , unless you actually don`t like cats ?


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Sorry I don't see why it should be up to me to use my own hard earned money to stop other people's cats getting in my garden. And it's only cats I'm choosing cos their the only animals that do this. Dogs are walked on leads to stop them going into people's gardens, rabbits and g-pigs are put in a run and birds in an aviary, so why should cats be any different? Dog owners have to follow their dogs and carry poop scoop bags so why shouldn't cat owners be made to do the same? 

And for me it's not just the fact that they mess in gardens, I don't like the fact that they cruelly kill birds and mice for fun. I like rodents and little birds so no I don't like cats killing them in my yard. More than that also I own many rodents and rabbits and if a cat got in I wouldn't do for very long:frown:. That is the main reason I don't like them and I'm afraid if I caught one in my garden it would go out instantly as the safety of my rabbits and rodents is paramount to me. Again I would not intentionally harm anything but i would do whatever necessary to protect my uttery defenceless small pets. Personally I think anyone would do anything neccesary to protect their own pets against another animal, just like they would their child without thinking twice about it. You wouldn't hesitate to hit a dog with whatever was handy if it was biting/attacking someone would you? You'd do anything to make it stop. Same thing with your pets IMO.


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## oggers86 (Nov 14, 2011)

colliewobble said:


> Sorry I don't see why it should be up to me to use my own hard earned money to stop other people's cats getting in my garden. And it's only cats I'm choosing cos their the only animals that do this. Dogs are walked on leads to stop them going into people's gardens, rabbits and g-pigs are put in a run and birds in an aviary, so why should cats be any different? Dog owners have to follow their dogs and carry poop scoop bags so why shouldn't cat owners be made to do the same?
> 
> And for me it's not just the fact that they mess in gardens, I don't like the fact that they cruelly kill birds and mice for fun. I like rodents and little birds so no I don't like cats killing them in my yard. More than that also I own many rodents and rabbits and if a cat got in I wouldn't do for very long:frown:. That is the main reason I don't like them and I'm afraid if I caught one in my garden it would go out instantly as the safety of my rabbits and rodents is paramount to me. Again I would not intentionally harm anything but i would do whatever necessary to protect my uttery defenceless small pets. Personally I think anyone would do anything neccesary to protect their own pets against another animal, just like they would their child without thinking twice about it. You wouldn't hesitate to hit a dog with whatever was handy if it was biting/attacking someone would you? You'd do anything to make it stop. Same thing with your pets IMO.


I completely agree that the safety of your pet must come first and if you own small animals of course you wont be happy with a cat in your garden. However, if it were me I would be going to all lengths to keep my pets safe, either through cat proofing my own garden or cat proofing the runs to prevent my pets from being eaten.

I lived in a house share for a year and the owner had 2 cats, I had a hamster. It was entirely down to me to make sure my hamster was safe from harm. I know its not quite the same as it was also their house but my point is that if I were truly bothered enough to want to cause harm to a dog/cat/animal I would attempt to do something about it before it became an issue..


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I do see where your coming from, but me choosing to catproof my garden for the safety of my small animals isn't quite the same as someone forced to pay to do so to stop the neighbours cat using their lawn as a litter tray. That is my choice to do so, not a case of having to cos someone won't stop their cat from wandering in.


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

colliewobble said:


> Sorry I don't see why it should be up to me to use my own hard earned money to stop other people's cats getting in my garden. And it's only cats I'm choosing cos their the only animals that do this. Dogs are walked on leads to stop them going into people's gardens, rabbits and g-pigs are put in a run and birds in an aviary, so why should cats be any different? Dog owners have to follow their dogs and carry poop scoop bags so why shouldn't cat owners be made to do the same?
> 
> And for me it's not just the fact that they mess in gardens, *I don't like the fact that they cruelly kill birds and mice for fun.* I like rodents and little birds so no I don't like cats killing them in my yard. More than that also I own many rodents and rabbits and if a cat got in I wouldn't do for very long:frown:. That is the main reason I don't like them and I'm afraid if I caught one in my garden it would go out instantly as the safety of my rabbits and rodents is paramount to me. Again I would not intentionally harm anything but i would do whatever necessary to protect my uttery defenceless small pets. Personally I think anyone would do anything neccesary to protect their own pets against another animal, just like they would their child without thinking twice about it. You wouldn't hesitate to hit a dog with whatever was handy if it was biting/attacking someone would you? You'd do anything to make it stop. Same thing with your pets IMO.


_Really??_ 

I thought cats that managed to kill birds and rodents primarily did it to feed 

Birds 'cruelly' kill worms and insects - is that OK if you dont particularly like worms and insects.

I get that you dont like cats in your garden, but at least use an argument that is logical as to why.

Exactly! And that is why a lot of people choose to use harnesses, cat runs or keep their cats as indoor pets - which, I believe, was the original point of this thread (mocking cat owners that do these things)


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Sorry I don't see why it should be up to me to use my own hard earned money to stop other people's cats getting in my garden.


you`d think nothing of spending your hard earned money to modernise inside your home though would you ? it`s only the same! why should cat proofing your garden be any different ?



colliewobble said:


> And it's only cats I'm choosing cos their the only animals that do this. Dogs are walked on leads to stop them going into people's gardens, rabbits and g-pigs are put in a run and birds in an aviary, so why should cats be any different? Dog owners have to follow their dogs and carry poop scoop bags so why shouldn't cat owners be made to do the same?


many cat owners don`t walk their cats though do they! and i doubt many cats would actually go to the loo in the same way a dog does when out on walks , because they don`t like being watched! cat owners who let their cats out can hardly go following round their cats with a poop scoop and a bag , your asking the impossible , by the time they`ve let their cat out and made their way to the front door , the cat would have been gone! over the nearest fence and away they go , can hardly expect cat owners to follow , plus wouldn`t they be tresspassing on folks properties even if they did something as stupid as that?



colliewobble said:


> And for me it's not just the fact that they mess in gardens, I don't like the fact that they cruelly kill birds and mice for fun. I like rodents and little birds so no I don't like cats killing them in my yard. More than that also I own many rodents and rabbits and if a cat got in I wouldn't do for very long:frown:. That is the main reason I don't like them and I'm afraid if I caught one in my garden it would go out instantly as the safety of my rabbits and rodents is paramount to me. Again I would not intentionally harm anything but i would do whatever necessary to protect my uttery defenceless small pets. Personally I think anyone would do anything neccesary to protect their own pets against another animal, just like they would their child without thinking twice about it. You wouldn't hesitate to hit a dog with whatever was handy if it was biting/attacking someone would you? You'd do anything to make it stop. Same thing with your pets IMO.


cats aren`t cruel , your misinterpreting the fact that they are prey driven animals cats love their families and return home to them [or try to] after a days adventures.
of course anyone would do anything to protect their pets , but your hardly helping yourself by refusing to cat proof your garden



colliewobble said:


> I do see where your coming from, but me choosing to catproof my garden for the safety of my small animals isn't quite the same as someone forced to pay to do so to stop the neighbours cat using their lawn as a litter tray. That is my choice to do so, not a case of having to cos someone won't stop their cat from wandering in.


how can one stop their cat from wandering into your garden ? completely impossible! unless your asking the entire cat owning population to keep their cats in , if that`s the case it`s never gonna happen.
why not get yourself your own cat ? may cut down on some of the problems you say your having because they are so territorial.
once upon a time i did have a cat he passed away at the grand old age of 19 and a half , i kept rodents and birds around him , he were never a problem , he weren`t bothered in the slightest by the small furries he shared his home with and he were given many an opportunity to kill any one of them while i were out , yet he never did , cats are more accepting than you seem to think. and i`d really love another one , but 5 mins after fussing over next doors my eyes are streaming


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diablo said:


> you`d think nothing of spending your hard earned money to modernise inside your home though would you ? it`s only the same! why should cat proofing your garden be any different ?
> 
> many cat owners don`t walk their cats though do they! and i doubt many cats would actually go to the loo in the same way a dog does when out on walks , because they don`t like being watched! cat owners who let their cats out can hardly go following round their cats with a poop scoop and a bag , your asking the impossible , by the time they`ve let their cat out and made their way to the front door , the cat would have been gone! over the nearest fence and away they go , can hardly expect cat owners to follow , plus wouldn`t they be tresspassing on folks properties even if they did something as stupid as that?
> 
> ...


Even if everyone did, I'm sure there'd still be ferals defecating in peoples' gardens & killing wildlife


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

diablo said:


> you`d think nothing of spending your hard earned money to modernise inside your home though would you ? it`s only the same! why should cat proofing your garden be any different ?
> 
> Because if I wanted to use my money to modernise inside my house it would be my choice! Not the same at all as having no choice to stop someone elses' cat getting in!
> 
> ...


Keep it in, cat proof _your_ garden seeing as your the owner, walk it on leash.

you were extremely lucky, doing that. Cat's are killers around small furries it's as simple as that. Just because it seems like it's not bothered, it would only take one second whilst you back is turned for it to act.

And I don't want a cat, I have small animals - I might as well sign their death warrant by getting a cat. Besides I don't need one to keep them out - my dogs do the job just fine thank you


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Because if I wanted to use my money to modernise inside my house it would be my choice! Not the same at all as having no choice to stop someone elses' cat getting in!


you do have a choice , your just refusing to accept it`s your responsibilty to cat proof YOUR garden , if you don`t want cats in it. it don`t need to be an expensive venture.



colliewobble said:


> That's why they should be on a harness and leashed. This thread I believe was started to ask if people agreed to cats being walked on leashes and I believe they are. I wouldn't mock anyone for walking their cat it is a far more responsible thing than to just let it wander. Provided the animal is leashable whats wrong with walking it? I've been walking rabbits since I was 11 years old, ( I was quite an attraction in the town - known as the mad rabbit girl!) So I have absolutely no problem with cats being walked.


it`s an impossible venture , cats are private creatures by NATURE they aren`t going to naturally do their business while on a walk in the same way a dog would , it`s not about mocking people that walk their cats , ask anyone that walks their cats whether their cat IS comfortable being watched while taking a pee or a dump and i bet their answer is a resounding NO.



colliewobble said:


> Oh yes they are, they don't kill mice and birds to eat, they do it for the fun of it, tormenting them first by injuring them just enough that they cannot escape. They certainly don't just give a quick shake and then a quick death. My granddad had a budgie that he loved and some cat knocked the cage over and the cat killed it, Didn't eat it just killed it pointlessly Also I was in my aunts house many years ago and I saw her cat chasing a mouse up and down the lawn out of the french windows. It was cruelly allowing it to run on way then stopping it then letting it go back in the opposite way before stopping it again. Luckily I threw a barbecue block at it which shocked it enough into staying still and gave the mouse a chance to esape under the fence. And yes I was glad I did that because I could not stand back and let that tiny defencless creature be killed in front of me whilst I stood back and did nothing. The idea that cats aren't cruel is ludicrous, where do you think they get the saying 'playing cat and mouse from'?


again your misinterpreting the meaning of CRUEL and PREDATORY



colliewobble said:


> you were extremely lucky, doing that. Cat's are killers around small furries it's as simple as that. Just because it seems like it's not bothered, it would only take one second whilst you back is turned for it to act.
> 
> And I don't want a cat, I have small animals - I might as well sign their death warrant by getting a cat. Besides I don't need one to keep them out - my dogs do the job just fine thank you


nope it werent luck , he were reared that way. 
if your using your dogs to `see off cats` in your garden what you moaning about ? i`d be more worried about them catching hold of one and killing it which is all the more reason to cat proof your garden:mad2:


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## MCWillow (Aug 26, 2011)

colliewobble said:


> *Keep it in, cat proof your garden seeing as your the owner, walk it on leash.*
> 
> [snip]
> 
> And I don't want a cat, I have small animals - I might as well sign their death warrant by getting a cat. Besides I don't need one to keep them out - my dogs do the job just fine thank you


I think most of the cat people responding to the original post do like this idea. Many were mocked for it, and the thread ended up going completely off topic.

_Original Post_


goodvic2 said:


> In the cat section there is a thread on cats on harnesses and leads.
> 
> The worry being that is the cat goes out on their own then they could get injured or kill something.
> 
> ...


Again, the veiled threats - why?

If you really want to know (which I am sure you dont but I am going to tell you anyway) the only crap I get in my garden is from dogs, that my neighbours own, and dont keep on a lead - therefore they are free-roaming.

Would it be OK for me to leave poisoned steak in my garden (for the dogs) because I prize my petunias?

I would never do that, even if it _was_ OK, I understand that animals will answer the call of nature when that call arises. It doesnt p!ss me off any less, but I would no way condone poisoning, or owning a bigger, stronger animal, to 'take care of' the problem.

It would be nice to have a response to my previous reply to a post of yours too - I am interested 


MCWillow said:


> _Really??_
> 
> I thought cats that managed to kill birds and rodents primarily did it to feed
> 
> ...


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

colliewobble said:


> Keep it in, cat proof _your_ garden seeing as your the owner, walk it on leash.
> 
> you were extremely lucky, doing that. Cat's are killers around small furries it's as simple as that. Just because it seems like it's not bothered, it would only take one second whilst you back is turned for it to act.
> 
> And I don't want a cat, I have small animals - *I might as well sign their death warrant by getting a cat*. Besides I don't need one to keep them out - my dogs do the job just fine thank you


Can't see why
I've had small furries & cats together since I was a child & none of them have been got at, it's easy enough to manage with care & vigilance


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

colliewobble said:


> Keep it in, cat proof _your_ garden seeing as your the owner, walk it on leash.
> 
> you were extremely lucky, doing that. Cat's are killers around small furries it's as simple as that. Just because it seems like it's not bothered, it would only take one second whilst you back is turned for it to act.
> 
> And I don't want a cat, I have small animals - *I might as well sign their death warrant by getting a cat*. Besides I don't need one to keep them out - my dogs do the job just fine thank you


I've had cats and rabbits for ten years and never once have they gone for the bunnies. In actual fact when I had bobz on his lead he took a liking to chasing the cats as they always ran away from him,


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

I would never keep a cat with small furries, not worth the risk and I'd never relax.

MCWillow which post did you want a reply on? I'm not sure

Again, why the hell is it my job to make sure someone else's cat doesnt get im my garden? I wouldn't expect it to be my neighbors job to prevent my dog from going in theirs.

I have a bloody big garden back and front, it would cost a lot to put some repellant all around it, so seeing as my dogs do it for nothing, think I'll stick with that.

Er it is my garden, my dog's garden, so it's not my problem really if they got hold of something that wasn't meant to be in there. If a kid threw a football over my fence and it popped on the stones would it be my fault for having stones, or his for throwing it in? Should I be held responsible for that and not put any stones down in case someone chucks their ball in my yard? Only reason I'd be worried is incase my dogs got scratched (one of my friends from school had a dog blinded by a cat scratching it). My dog is a sheepdog anyway, likes to chase things, so the sight of her usually does the trick.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Er it is my garden, my dog's garden, so it's not my problem really if they got hold of something that wasn't meant to be in there. If a kid threw a football over my fence and it popped on the stones would it be my fault for having stones, or his for throwing it in? Should I be held responsible for that and not put any stones down in case someone chucks their ball in my yard? Only reason I'd be worried is incase my dogs got scratched (one of my friends from school had a dog blinded by a cat scratching it). My dog is a sheepdog anyway, likes to chase things, so the sight of her usually does the trick.


err well , you may be interested to know that cats ARE protected by LAW it is an offence to trap , injure or kill them , so you may want to review your plans for not cat proofing your garden so , well , you should be worried if one of your dogs injures or kills them.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

My dogs dont catch cats they chase them, so they're not harming them are they? They're just keeping them out. shock horror - loads of dogs chase cats. I am certainly not going to stop them from protecting my rodents and keeping my yard crap free.they are earning their dinner, much like the terrier keeping the rats away from the feed bags on the farm. And it's THEIR garden so in my view they has every right to chase intruders out whether they're 4 legged or 2.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

i am all for cats being kept indoors/on a lead

we have had a dog using the garden every day for about 2 years, and multiple dogs in the garden every day for about a year and a half, you'd have thought the stupid bloody things would have learnt (they've been chased out by the dogs before), but no, just yesterday there were 2 in my garden, and one was literally a foot away from being torn to shreds, there would have been nothing i could have done, the dogs were already out there by the time i noticed mr kitty trapped next to the log pile looking a little worried! I tell you, Kira almost got it, and if she had it would have been a 3 way tug of war with mr kitty as the tug toy!

I will not keep my dogs on lead in their own garden, i will not go and search all corners of the garden before letting my dogs out, & I am not forking out to make my garden cat proof! If mr kitty doesnt like the idea of being dog dinner he had better learn not to use my garden as a short cut!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> I would never keep a cat with small furries, not worth the risk and I'd never relax.
> 
> MCWillow which post did you want a reply on? I'm not sure
> 
> ...


Well EXCUSE ME.
I have have my cat for 12 years now, I have also had a selection of mice, rats, hamsters, degu's, guniea pigs AND rabbits ALL in my house without a SINGLE incident in the whole 12 years.
Cats are not these evil killing machines you think they are 

Oh and on a side note you do know it's not just cats that $hit in gardens right?
Foxes do it too 

I really can't believe you are comparing your dogs getting hold of a living creature to a kids football being popped on some rocks :frown2:

Think I'm going to bow out of this thread now, it is doing my nut in :mad2:


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

colliewobble said:


> I would never keep a cat with small furries, not worth the risk and I'd never relax.
> 
> MCWillow which post did you want a reply on? I'm not sure
> 
> ...


It depends on the owner as I told my neighbours that if ny cats poo in their garden tell me and I will come and clear it up.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> Well EXCUSE ME.
> I have have my cat for 12 years now, I have also had a selection of mice, rats, hamsters, degu's, guniea pigs AND rabbits ALL in my house without a SINGLE incident in the whole 12 years.
> Cats are not these evil killing machines you think they are
> 
> ...


 My neighbours tried to blame it on my cats but I took one look and was like that's actually fox poo.


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

Also in the ten years I've owned bunnies I could count the times a cat has gone after them on no hands coz it's 0. Where as I've lost count of the times foxes and dogs have tried to get them. As the bank next to my house joins onto a wood.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> My dogs dont catch cats they chase them, so they're not harming them are they? They're just keeping them out. shock horror - loads of dogs chase cats. I am certainly not going to stop them from protecting my rodents and keeping my yard crap free.they are earning their dinner, much like the terrier keeping the rats away from the feed bags on the farm. And it's THEIR garden so in my view they has every right to chase intruders out whether they're 4 legged or 2.


i have guinea pigs , they are kept inside and live alongside big whopping horrible snakes  shock horror never had a problem there either strangely enough



jimbo_28_02 said:


> My neighbours tried to blame it on my cats but I took one look and was like that's actually fox poo.


hedgehogs can be the culprits too


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

diablo said:


> i have guinea pigs , they are kept inside and live alongside big whopping horrible snakes  shock horror never had a problem there either strangely enough
> 
> *hedgehogs can be the culprits too*


And pigeons. I've slipped over on pigeon poo before


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

diablo said:


> i have guinea pigs , they are kept inside and live alongside big whopping horrible snakes  shock horror never had a problem there either strangely enough
> 
> hedgehogs can be the culprits too


Oh my god 
How do you cope with the worry? Surely ONE day your snakes are bound to plot an attack on your poor lil piggers :frown2:

Opps I used to have a 6ft common boa in the same house I had rats and mice yet again without any problems (and before anyone takes it the wrong way, no the rats and mice weren't FOR the snake...)

And yes Hedgehogs poo in gardens too, and they aren't these little tiny poo's that some people think they are :lol:


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

simplysardonic said:


> And pigeons. I've slipped over on pigeon poo before


pigeons are a big problem around here unlike cats they [email protected] all over my washing when it`s outside and all over my frigging car but hey i don`t go round letting the dogs out on them , or wish next doors cat would wipe them off the face of the earth infact i saved a ferral pigeon nest from a fate worse than death when they nested in my bike shed local pigeon racer / fancier came round and removed the young for me before next doors cat had them for dinner


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

B3rnie said:


> Oh my god
> *How do you cope with the worry? Surely ONE day your snakes are bound to plot an attack on your poor lil piggers :frown2:
> 
> *
> ...


i know it`s terrible ain`t it:frown2: i mean look how terrified and hard done to they are:frown2:








i`m such a horrible irresponsible person having had a cat and snakes around my poor defenseless little fur babies i have nightmares about it i honestly do:frown2: :frown2:

i don`t really

and hedgehogs do massive poos that i have mistaken for cat poo in the past lol


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Pigeons, hedgehogs and foxes are wild animals, no one owns or controls them, cats belong to someone so they should be controllable. No one can stop wild mice getting in someone's house if they so choose, that doesn't mean it's ok for someone to let their pet mice do the same. If you own it, you should make sure it it's not bothering anyone else.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

sid&kira said:


> i am all for cats being kept indoors/on a lead
> 
> we have had a dog using the garden every day for about 2 years, and multiple dogs in the garden every day for about a year and a half, you'd have thought the stupid bloody things would have learnt (they've been chased out by the dogs before), but no, just yesterday there were 2 in my garden, and one was literally a foot away from being torn to shreds, there would have been nothing i could have done, the dogs were already out there by the time i noticed mr kitty trapped next to the log pile looking a little worried! I tell you, Kira almost got it, and if she had it would have been a 3 way tug of war with mr kitty as the tug toy!
> 
> I will not keep my dogs on lead in their own garden, i will not go and search all corners of the garden before letting my dogs out, & I am not forking out to make my garden cat proof! If mr kitty doesnt like the idea of being dog dinner he had better learn not to use my garden as a short cut!


I wholeheartedly agree - finally someone who can see sense!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Pigeons, hedgehogs and foxes are wild animals, no one owns or controls them, cats belong to someone so they should be controllable. No one can stop wild mice getting in someone's house if they so choose, that doesn't mean it's ok for someone to let their pet mice do the same. If you own it, you should make sure it it's not bothering anyone else.


not all cats belong to someone , as already pointed out theres MILLIONS of ferral cats around.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Pigeons, hedgehogs and foxes are wild animals, no one owns or controls them, cats belong to someone so they should be controllable. *No one can stop wild mice getting in someone's house if they so choose*, that doesn't mean it's ok for someone to let their pet mice do the same. If you own it, you should make sure it it's not bothering anyone else.


That is where you are wrong my friend, yes they CAN stop them if they wish. Just the same as you can stop other animals coming into your garden if you wish. 

As for saying that someone is speaking sence because they won't put a lead on their dog in their own garden, would you care to point out where ANYONE has said that dog owners should put leads on their dogs in their own garden.... I have a funny feeling I will be waiting a long time for that snippit of information


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

You should all think yourselves lucky... I can't even get the car out of the drive !!


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Jazmine said:


> Perhaps not in this thread, I was talking about the cat forum. Plenty of people have said that on there.





DoodlesRule said:


> One of my neighbours, mad behatch, *told* my dad (obviously knew she would get a mouthful telling me so picked on an 81 year old instead) to keep my dog on a lead as he chased her cat.
> 
> Fair point you may think - Dougie started to chase the cat when it came into MY house, other neighbours have to keep their windows closed as it goes in their house - but the amusing part she thought I should have him on a lead in MY GARDEN.


Here's someone posting that the cat owner thought the dog should be on lead in its own garden.


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

Sarah1983 said:


> I've run into that attitude many times, apparently I should have had Rupert leashed and muzzled in our own house and garden just in case a cat got in. I used to check the garden before letting him out knowing full well if he caught a cat he'd kill it but no way I was keeping him leashed and muzzled 24/7!


And here is another one. Sorry I dont know how to multi quote so they're in 2 separate threads. It didnt take me very long to find either.


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## sid&kira (Oct 15, 2009)

B3rnie said:


> That is where you are wrong my friend, yes they CAN stop them if they wish. Just the same as you can stop other animals coming into your garden if you wish.
> 
> As for saying that someone is speaking sence because they won't put a lead on their dog in their own garden, would you care to point out where ANYONE has said that dog owners should put leads on their dogs in their own garden.... I have a funny feeling I will be waiting a long time for that snippit of information


please explain how i am ment to stop cats coming into my garden?


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Here's someone posting that the cat owner thought the dog should be on lead in its own garden.





colliewobble said:


> And here is another one. Sorry I dont know how to multi quote so they're in 2 separate threads. It didnt take me very long to find either.


LOL as I thought, not one person in THIS thread or ANY thread on this forum, two idiots from the general public do not prove your point I'm afraid 
There are far more sensible pet owners than there are idiots, we shouldn't all be held accountable for the few


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> You should all think yourselves lucky... I can't even get the car out of the drive !!


Wow, you must have a real problem with cats if they're burying enough poop to block the driveway


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## Wobbles (Jun 2, 2011)

sid&kira said:


> please explain how i am ment to stop cats coming into my garden?


Apparently according to some, it is YOUR responsibility to pay YOUR money to stop SOMEONE ELSE'S cats from being in your garden, not theirs, despite it being their animal!!:mad2:


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Apparently according to some, it is YOUR responsibility to pay YOUR money to stop SOMEONE ELSE'S cats from being in your garden, not theirs, despite it being their animal!!:mad2:


not YOUR garden tho is it if you really want to get down to things

tell me how folks are going to stop FERRAL cats going in other folks gardens , ferral cats don`t belong to anyone. 
when you`ve saved up enough money to move out of your parents house to have your 3rd dog , you never know your parents might end up paying to cat proof THEIR garden being as YOUR dogs are no longer there to scare the ever loving sh1t out the poor things in your words `to protect` your other pets that are nothing to do with your parents. i understand why you wouldn`t want to shell out money now to keep cats out of your parents garden , but your more than willing to pay out at least £1000 for another dog your parents don`t really want or have no interest in , classic your immaturity shines through


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

colliewobble said:


> Apparently according to some, it is YOUR responsibility to pay YOUR money to stop SOMEONE ELSE'S cats from being in your garden, not theirs, despite it being their animal!!:mad2:


Yet again please point out where ANY responsible cat owner has said this, and no your previous examples weren't valid, I said responsible.
I suggest you re-read this thread because it was started to ridicule responsible cat owners that DO keep their cats in and walk them, then turned into a feral cat bashing thread and now it is just going around in circles.

I will repeat, even if every cat owner kept their cats in, you would still have feral cats, foxes, hedgehogs, birds (and the list goes on) $hitting in your garden, so if YOU have a problem with this YOU need to make humane arrangements to stop it happening.

I will also repeat that I understand when non-cat owners get annoyed with DOMESTIC cats using their gardens as a litter tray but that does NOT mean anyone is within their right to harm or kill that animal :mad2:

Seriously are you actually reading the replies here or are you just picking up the little bits that suit you


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

diablo said:


> not YOUR garden tho is it if you really want to get down to things
> 
> tell me how folks are going to stop FERRAL cats going in other folks gardens , ferral cats don`t belong to anyone.
> when you`ve saved up enough money to move out of your parents house to have your 3rd dog , you never know your parents might end up paying to cat proof THEIR garden being as YOUR dogs are no longer there to scare the ever loving sh1t out the poor things in your words `to protect` your other pets that are nothing to do with your parents. i understand why you wouldn`t want to shell out money now to keep cats out of your parents garden , but your more than willing to pay out at least £1000 for another dog your parents don`t really want or have no interest in , classic your immaturity shines through


I'm completely lost.. What are you guys debating?

Cats poo in gardens.. Get over it, or get yourself a cat so that it reduces the amount of cats who come in your garden.

Blimey what's a bit of cats poo. Pick it up if you don't like it.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> Yet again please point out where ANY responsible cat owner has said this, and no your previous examples weren't valid, I said responsible.
> I suggest you re-read this thread because it was started to ridicule responsible cat owners that DO keep their cats in and walk them, then turned into a feral cat bashing thread and now it is just going around in circles.
> 
> I will repeat, even if every cat owner kept their cats in, you would still have feral cats, foxes, hedgehogs, birds (and the list goes on) $hitting in your garden, so if YOU have a problem with this YOU need to make humane arrangements to stop it happening.
> ...


I don't recall anyone saying they would harm a cat, bar a spray of water.

Perfectly reasonable to me..


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> I'm completely lost.. What are you guys debating?
> 
> Cats poo in gardens.. Get over it, or get yourself a cat so that it reduces the amount of cats who come in your garden.
> 
> Blimey what's a bit of cats poo. Pick it up if you don't like it.


exactly!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> I don't recall anyone saying they would harm a cat, bar a spray of water.
> 
> Perfectly reasonable to me..





colliewobble said:


> To some it is probably easier to them to put poison down than it is to work out who's cat it is going in their garden (and even if they did would the owner admitt it if they had a confrontation? Honestly?They'd most likely say not my cat must be someone else's). Therefore targeting the actual cat would be much more effective and easier. Yes your cat does mean a lot to you but somebody's prize winning petunia's also mean a lot to them. Fair enough you don't want anyone to harm your cat but just as fairly others don't want their lawn ruining either. Works both ways.


There you go 
And I have explained why spraying cats with water isn't acceptable.


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> There you go
> And I have explained why spraying cats with water isn't acceptable.


Rubbish!

Its perfectly acceptable! If it doesn't like it, then it won't come back.

Blimey this is PC at its best!


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

B3rnie said:


> There you go
> And I have explained why spraying cats with water isn't acceptable.





> Originally Posted by colliewobble
> To some it is probably easier to them to put poison down than it is to work out who's cat it is going in their garden (and even if they did would the owner admitt it if they had a confrontation? Honestly?They'd most likely say not my cat must be someone else's). Therefore targeting the actual cat would be much more effective and easier. Yes your cat does mean a lot to you but somebody's prize winning petunia's also mean a lot to them. Fair enough you don't want anyone to harm your cat but just as fairly others don't want their lawn ruining either. Works both ways.


well i think it`s pretty unbelievable that a self confessed animal lover would post that , i honestly don`t see what the big problem is cats don`t bother me or really hurt my garden and even if they did i wouldn`t be bothered , don`t get me wrong i like a nice garden , but i love all living things too so i`d be quite willing to sacrifice one for the other.
placing poison down , squirting water or allowing my dogs to give chase to any other animal considered to be a threat wouldn`t be on my `to do` list because i do happen to think it`s downright cruel when there are far more effective ways to keep them out when you don`t want them in there , which don`t have to cost the earth.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> Rubbish!
> 
> Its perfectly acceptable! If it doesn't like it, then it won't come back.
> 
> Blimey this is PC at its best!


If you had ever looked after a cat with pneumonia you wouldn't say that, this is NOT PC in the slightest, this is me TRYING to explain why it wasn't a good idea to do it.
Did you actually read my reply???

ANY animal lover should see that :frown2:


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## goodvic2 (Nov 23, 2008)

B3rnie said:


> If you had ever looked after a cat with pneumonia you wouldn't say that, this is NOT PC in the slightest, this is me TRYING to explain why it wasn't a good idea to do it.
> Did you actually read my reply???
> 
> ANY animal lover should see that :frown2:


Yes I did read it. You said it can give a cat a bad respiratory problem..

I wouldn't personally do it, because I have no problem But if I did I would still spray it with water, if it upset me.

It's my property and if I don't want something in my garden then I will deal with it humanely.

Again I think it's a massive over reaction that a little spray is going to kill a cat.

Our next door neighbour used to always spray our cats because she hated cats. None of them ever died or got an infection.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

goodvic2 said:


> Yes I did read it. *You said it can give a cat a bad respiratory problem..*
> 
> I wouldn't personally do it, because I have no problem But if I did I would still spray it with water, if it upset me.
> 
> ...


AND pneumonia.
I also said that you don't know the cats medical history.
Just because yours didn't get an infection or die from it, that doesn't mean it never happens.

If a cat has a history of respiratory infections CAN cause them serious harm.
I have had to nurse a few cats back to health because someone decided it was a good idea to spray them with water....

Yet again, there is far, far better ways to deter unwanted animals in your garden than spraying them with water or poisoning them. which was my point in the first place.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

B3rnie said:


> LOL as I thought, not one person in THIS thread or ANY thread on this forum, two idiots from the general public do not prove your point I'm afraid
> There are far more sensible pet owners than there are idiots, we shouldn't all be held accountable for the few


Who the hell are you to call me an idiot - my moronic neighbour thought I should keep my dog on a lead in the back garden, its totally enclosed with locked gates and only a cat or bird could get in.

You are a member of the genral public too



B3rnie said:


> AND pneumonia.
> I also said that you don't know the cats medical history.
> Just because yours didn't get an infection or die from it, that doesn't mean it never happens.
> 
> ...


Err if you have a cat that a bit of water will make it drop dead then surely it would be an indoor cat as, shock horror it might just rain whilst its outside having a wander


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

This thread has gone far enough with the insults and personal attacks on others for differing opinions.
Closing it now.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Just to add a note to this, it seems that some wires got crossed and people got the wrong idea from some posts.
If we can all agree that there a lot of disagreements about keeping cats indoors or allowing them out, without the need to call anyone an idiot or whatever other insult, we can leave it at that.


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