# Attacks on Muslim women who wear veils have risen since Boris Johnson compared them to “letterboxes”



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This man isn't funny hes downright dangerous. I am baffled how he could become an MP. What kind of person could cast their vote for a morally bankrupt, serial liar? Isn't he tipped to become the next PM as well?  FGS. This country is sliding into the sewer.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-islamophobia-letterboxes-rise-a8488651.html


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

So these are anecdotal reports rather than reports to the police? If anecdoctal then how can these be seen as a 'direct link'? Whose statistics are they using? Their own or formal ones? Seems like scaremongering to me.

Personally I do not like Boris Johnson & found his comments irresponsible but then reading the article I find this quote pretty ironic ....." Mr Mughal said the Tory MP’s comments had not only “dehumanised” Muslim women ....." 

Which obviously a burkha or Niqab doesn't do at all??!!!!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Boris is an absolute dick and rude too . There was no need to say that. Ive not read his article in the Telegraph so I dont know what the rest of it said.
But I am concerned that if anyone raises any concerns about the burkha they are immediatedly labeled racist and Islamaphobic.
I'm concerned that woman's rights are going backward, all the things we fought for will be lost . and Im concerned that many woman really don't have a choice .
I see young girls , infant and primary school and they wear leggings and arm coverings under their school clothes. They have no choice. How hot they must have been in this heat wave.

Sorry but I do think it needs to be discussed and addressed. We should be tolerant of religious beliefs 
but not let it lead to an acceptance of oppression.


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

Cleo38 said:


> So these are anecdotal reports rather than reports to the police? If anecdoctal then how can these be seen as a 'direct link'? Whose statistics are they using? Their own or formal ones? Seems like scaremongering to me.
> 
> Personally I do not like Boris Johnson & found his comments irresponsible but then reading the article I find this quote pretty ironic ....." Mr Mughal said the Tory MP's comments had not only "dehumanised" Muslim women ....."
> 
> Which obviously a burkha or Niqab doesn't do at all??!!!!


It feels like people just adding fuel to the fire.

I do love how the ridiculous thing that is Twitter has become the fount of all 'facts' now.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

MilleD said:


> It feels like people just adding fuel to the fire.
> 
> I do love how the ridiculous thing that is Twitter has become the fount of all 'facts' now.


Hahaha, exactly ....


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

TBH I would expect some fall out and incidences from Boris's quote, there will always be idiots who use any excuse to be horrid to other people for any reason .

I hardly bother with Twitter nowadays , I just stick to animal stuff and TV. Its not worth the crap you get back if you voice an opinions about politics etc,


----------



## HarlequinCat (Nov 29, 2012)

What Boris Johnson said was completely idiotic. 
Having said that, there are women in countries where they are forced to wear the veil who are trying to fight back


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> They have no choice.


Many women and children do have a choice...in fact I'd be happy to say that most women and children that live in UK/Europe have the choice.
I'm not saying that women haven't been oppressed due to religious beliefs...I think all religions are guilty of that even in the modern world and the Amish are the worst of the lot IMHO 
We need to speak to the women involved..ask them and listen to the answers! If the majority say they that they don't feel they have a choice and would rather not wear a hijab or burka THEN we need to fight for their rights to wear what they wish.
I do see what you are saying, I just don't agree that most in the western world don't have a choice.

Boris is a very clever man...this bumbling buffoon that he comes across as is a very clever act indeed, and whilst I don't agree with what he said, it has now garnered the support of all those scared of the Burka, he gets himself out in the press and gets people talking about him...He knows full well what he is doing unfortunately


----------



## samuelsmiles (Dec 29, 2010)




----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> I'm concerned that woman's rights are going backward, all the things we fought for will be lost . and Im concerned that many woman really don't have a choice .
> I see young girls , infant and primary school and they wear leggings and arm coverings under their school clothes. They have no choice. How hot they must have been in this heat wave.
> 
> Sorry but I do think it needs to be discussed and addressed. We should be tolerant of religious beliefs
> but not let it lead to an acceptance of oppression.


This!!! As a feminist I am against women being told what they can & can't wear but then I also feel that I cannot be ok with women who have been indoctrinated with the idea that they need to cover up ..... & yes, I am well aware that not all will feel like this but in many parts of the world women are fighting for their rights not wear this item of 'clothing' that has almost become shackles for them, they have lost the right to an education, to leave their homes without chaperones, etc ..... I find it sad that this is seen as acceptable & any criticism is deemed 'racist'


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

The 'choice' to wear the niqab/burka didn't come about in a vacuum. Not in favour of banning them of course and I definitely don't approve of cowardly men taking their frustrations out on veiled women (BoJo is a pos and a terrifying prospect as PM) but these garments aren't a requirement of Islam and are not harmless - they are dehumanising and perpetuate the idea of women and girls as the property of their husbands/fathers.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1028023004310061056
'Don't tell me when you see images like this, that it feel just. It doesn't. We all know it doesn't. Let's just stop pretending it is. Thank you.'


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I think the whole thing has got out of hand and couldn't careless what his said, it was just a few words in a large article. 
Some people feel he is right and feel threatened when they can't see who's face is covered they don't they know if it's a man or a woman under the burkha or Niqab and with the worry of terrorism around I can understand why some people feel uncomfortable when they see these women.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Many women and children do have a choice...in fact I'd be happy to say that most women and children that live in UK/Europe have the choice.
> 
> Boris is a very clever man...this bumbling buffoon that he comes across as is a very clever act indeed, and whilst I don't agree with what he said, it has now garnered the support of all those scared of the Burka, he gets himself out in the press and gets people talking about him...He knows full well what he is doing unfortunately


Yes , when he was voted Mayor of London , he was described as dangerous . I think he has a natural cunning and friends in high places.

( This is general information for anybody .There are different types of coverings , https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241 ) 
This is about the burka and total covering . Its not just religion but ethnic or tribal differences too .
I think we come from similar areas , we have different ethnic group and religions we have women with all types of head gear and some wear none .
This is quite a prosperous area now when it was once a bit run down and rough and the people that are moving here are perhaps better educated and enlightened , and maybe the women do or feel they do have a choice.

However, I think that's bit of a bold statement to say that most woman and children in Europe have a choice . I don't agree . The only way to find out is to say to those who feel they have a choice is to not wear one and see how their husbands etc react .

I wonder what happens in religious free schools , if the teachers have to cover up if they are not Muslim. 
Dress modestly doesn't mean covering up every inch of your body .

Different religions are changing and becoming adaptable , we used to have to wear a hat to church in the 60s , we don't now etc . Sikhs here often where baseball caps informally .

ETA I dont want a ban on the burka but I'm not so sure when dealing with the public , say in schools or public offices or in court.

Perhaps our differences of opinion is a generation thing . i remember Iran when the Shah was there.
If you look at old 50s news reels of the Middle east etc , It's was very Westernised.
This is Iran now
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...e-jailed-prison-tehran-enghelab-a8246076.html


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

StormyThai said:


> Many women and children do have a choice...in fact I'd be happy to say that most women and children that live in UK/Europe have the choice.
> I'm not saying that women haven't been oppressed due to religious beliefs...I think all religions are guilty of that even in the modern world and the Amish are the worst of the lot IMHO
> We need to speak to the women involved..ask them and listen to the answers! If the majority say they that they don't feel they have a choice and would rather not wear a hijab or burka THEN we need to fight for their rights to wear what they wish.
> I do see what you are saying, I just don't agree that most in the western world don't have a choice.


Do you think that if they felt they didn't have a choice they would be happy airing that view? Because I don't.

I know muslim women have rebelled against it. One girl I used to know wanted to be far more westernised, and went out drinking and having fun. She's now in Pakistan in an arranged marriage. I don't know if she agreed to that or not, she just disappeared.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Hmmmm....


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

For me, it's not so much about terrorism but about communication. In our society our interactions & observations are very much based on facial cues &/or body language .... clothing such as this completely changes this & divides these woman from the society they live in.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I wonder what Boris thinks of nuns ! ETA we cross posted .


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> Hmmmm....
> View attachment 364173
> 
> 
> View attachment 364174


I think we are talking about burquas or niqabs in particular as they hide a face aswell as covering the body, not Islamic (or religious) dress in general .... well, at least I am


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Some interesting articles about the different modes of dress

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/08/female-muslim-dress-survey_n_4564188.html

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/what-is-the-burqa-and-how-many-muslim-women-actually-wear-it/

https://www.seeker.com/life-behind-the-burqa-in-afghanistan-2000876258.html

I lived for 7 years in an Islamic Fundamentalist country where non Muslim women were frequently attacked and raped. During that time I was mugged and ended up in hospital, Once when my DIL and I were driving back home we were surrounded by a mob and stoned, simply for being the wrong colour and religion.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm sorry but if we go to Muslim countries we have to conform to their dress code and laws, so why does't it work when they come over here, everyone just does what they like and we let them.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Hmmmm....
> View attachment 364173
> 
> 
> View attachment 364174


Who's referred to nuns here, least of as devoted all the while criticising similarly dressed Muslim women? Assuming that's a Catholic nun now there's a religion I'm not exactly enthusiastic about (there's a whole other thread in the wicked deeds of the Catholic church) so I'm being consistent at least. Nuns anyway are a part of largely enclosed religious orders, so such severe dress at least fits.
The second picture is hard to make out as I'm on an ancient laptop with a dodgy screen colour wise but they have modest dress and simple head coverings. Like the hijab, this is to me a reasonable concession to modesty and religion, if that's your cup of tea. I realise it's a complicated area and ultimately boils down to the same thing but still there is a massive difference between conservative clothing and a head scarf and having to shroud your entire body.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Magyarmum, heck ,that must have been terrifying. 

Its still a bit strange to see full burkhas here but it will become the norm . Dress modestly ? What does that mean to different people. What do Muslim women and men think of woman who don't cover up . I wonder in a hundred years if ther will be laws to say every woman must cover up .
no one ever knows what will happen in the future .


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Happy Paws said:


> I'm sorry but if we go to Muslim countries we have to conform to their dress code and laws, so why does't it work when they come over here, everyone just does what they like and we let them.


I see your point. European countries are banning burkas so that means Muslims following the law of that country .


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

I live in an area with a fair Muslim population, I see women in hijabs every day and niqabis most days. Never seen a burka irl before though and will be thoroughly depressed if I ever do. If men had to wear them too maybe I wouldn't mind so much but of course they don't.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Happy Paws said:


> I'm sorry but if we go to Muslim countries we have to conform to their dress code and laws, so why does't it work when they come over here, everyone just does what they like and we let them.


Oh dear ....

Why does it always come down to them & us?! 'They' don't have a dress code as such. Islamic dress is interpreted very differently across cultures rather than the religion directly. .

And as for 'them' coming over here, many Muslims live in the UK & are very much part of society ..... Surely you realise this


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Yemeni artist Boushra Almutawakel, 'What if', 2008


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> Oh dear ....
> 
> Why does it always come down to them & us?! 'They' don't have a dress code as such. Islamic dress is interpreted very differently across cultures rather than the religion directly. .
> 
> And as for 'them' coming over here, many Muslims live in the UK & are very much part of society ..... Surely you realise this


If we go to a muslim country, women have to be very careful how they dress


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> So these are anecdotal reports rather than reports to the police? If anecdoctal then how can these be seen as a 'direct link'? Whose statistics are they using? Their own or formal ones? Seems like scaremongering to me.
> 
> Personally I do not like Boris Johnson & found his comments irresponsible but then reading the article I find this quote pretty ironic ....." Mr Mughal said the Tory MP's comments had not only "dehumanised" Muslim women ....."
> 
> Which obviously a burkha or Niqab doesn't do at all??!!!!





MilleD said:


> It feels like people just adding fuel to the fire.
> 
> I do love how the ridiculous thing that is Twitter has become the fount of all 'facts' now.





Cleo38 said:


> This!!! As a feminist I am against women being told what they can & can't wear but then I also feel that I cannot be ok with women who have been indoctrinated with the idea that they need to cover up ..... & yes, I am well aware that not all will feel like this but in many parts of the world women are fighting for their rights not wear this item of 'clothing' that has almost become shackles for them, they have lost the right to an education, to leave their homes without chaperones, etc ..... I find it sad that this is seen as acceptable & any criticism is deemed 'racist'


Boris knows exactly what hes doing - hes emboldening racists. Hes been meeting with white supremacist Steve Bannon, Trumps ex adviser. Johnson is using the same tactics Trump used to appeal to voters in the USA.

It clearly states on the link, that Tell MAMA have seen an increase in hate incidents since made those comments.










*Morally empty' Johnson is courting fascism, says peer as Tory crisis mounts*
*Ex-Cameron aide and Muslim leaders join condemnation over the former foreign secretary's burqa comments*

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ohnson-courting-fascism-says-peer-tory-crisis


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

picaresque said:


> Who's referred to nuns here, least of as devoted all the while criticising similarly dressed Muslim women? Assuming that's a Catholic nun now there's a religion I'm not exactly enthusiastic about (there's a whole other thread in the wicked deeds of the Catholic church) so I'm being consistent at least. Nuns anyway are a part of largely enclosed religious orders, so such severe dress at least fits.


And of course, if a man wants to be equally as devoted as a nun, he can become a monk and sport the attire, and live the lifestyle that comes with that, so there is no comparison between a nun and a woman wearing a burkha.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Boris knows exactly what hes doing - hes emboldening racists. Hes been meeting with white supremacist Steve Bannon, Trumps ex adviser. Johnson is using the same tactics Trump used to appeal to voters in the USA.
> 
> It clearly states on the link, that Tell MAMA have seen an increase in hate incidents since made those comments.
> 
> ...


These may be incidents ... but then they might not be. There is no direct link as there is no way of analysing this, it's all assumptions

I do find it very strange that one of the 'victims' states ... ""Myself and my husband are considering moving to an Arab country where we would feel more comfortable and do not have to put up with abuse" .... REALLY????? Hahaha, the irony is astounding


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry but all this talk of nuns


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> These may be incidents ... but then they might not be. There is no direct link as there is no way of analysing this, it's all assumptions
> 
> I do find it very strange that one of the 'victims' states ... ""Myself and my husband are considering moving to an Arab country where we would feel more comfortable and do not have to put up with abuse.2 .... REALLY????? Again the irony is astounding


OK, you may not believe those anecdotes, but don't you believe Tell Mama when they state incidents have risen as a direct result? Don't you think his comments make racists feel emboldened?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*http://www.mcb.org.uk/the-impact-of-boris-johnsons-comments-this-week/*

*Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)*
*THE IMPACT OF BORIS JOHNSON'S COMMENTS THIS WEEK*

11 August 2018

Since Boris Johnson's Islamophobic remarks comparing Muslim women who wear the niqab to robbers and letterboxes, his words have had a negative and potentially dangerous effect on Muslim women and Muslims generally.

On LBC radio, a Muslim woman recounted her experience of being abused on the street and mocked by being compared to a letterbox. A Muslim woman and her children were abused outside a medical centre. Another Muslim woman was called a "f***ing letterbox" by a lady in Parsons Green. Two pensioners began to loudly mock the niqab as they watched a BBC News interview in the waiting area in front of a Muslim woman wearing the hijab.

And Vice News revealed a wave of abusive Islamophobic commentary on ConservativeHome, a website popular with Conservative activists. This comes two days after Tory supporters in the Conservative Politics Society group, which changed its name from Conservative Debating Forum after the Red Roar revealed that it regularly hosted Islamophobic content, gleefully repeated Johnson's "letterbox" and "bank robber" jibes, including one demanding "kick all Muslims out of our country" adding "got to love Boris".

At the Muslim Council of Britain, we have also received hate mail.

One read 'Boris Johnson was saying what most of us think about your pathetic phoney religion and the pathetic hiqab or whatever the stupid thing is called , this is NOT your country look what you put tommy robinson through you are all barbarians [sic].'

Another reads: 'BORIS IS RIGHT - MUSLIM WOMEN LOOK LIKE "LETTER BOXES" & BANK ROBBERS" & "ISLAM IS THE PROBLEM " - YOU MUSLIMS FOLLOW A SICK EVIL CROSS DRESSING GROOMING PEDOPHILE RAPIST SEX SLAVE MURDERING WARLORD - FACT & FREEDOM OF SPEECH - STOP CRYING ABOUT IT.'

Harun Khan, Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain said: "The impact of Boris Johnson's comments are real and worrying and indicate the importance of a full, transparent and independent investigation into his conduct, in particular given the lack of action in previous cases of Islamophobia in the Party.

"The comments and belief by a number of Conservative MPs that not even an apology is required, has shone a light on the underbelly of Islamophobia that is present within the Party - one that can only be tackled by sincerely changing course and positively responding to calls for an independent inquiry into Islamophobia in the Party."

[ENDS]
*Notes to Edito*


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> OK, you may not believe those anecdotes, but don't you believe Tell Mama when they state incidents have risen as a direct result? Don't you think his comments make racists feel emboldened?


 Yes I do to degree but then I also think statements as you have quoted make people feel threatened & scared unnecessarily.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

According to the Muslims who own the local petrol station, nothing in Islam says a woman should cover even her head, let alone a burka, they say that those who do, do so for cultural not religious reasons. It is a cultural tradition based upon patriarchal rules. Therefore, there is no comparison to be made between nuns and Muslims wearing burkas. Besides, women who become nuns do so through freedom of choice. Women who wear burkas do so because they have been indoctrinated into doing so by a patriarchal culture that favours men. In other words, they have been brain-washed into believing it is their choice, when in truth, they have never had a choice at all.

Noticed this article earlier today:

http://gbinfo.uk/biker-told-to-remove-helmet-at-garage-while-woman-in-burka-fills-up-next-to-him/


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> Yes I do to degree but then I also think statements as you have quoted make people feel threatened & scared unnecessarily.


Oh so its not Johnson making people feel scared - its me:Hilarious


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Oh so its not Johnson making people feel scared - its me:Hilarious


If you read what I wrote I said It was the statement you quoted ... 

It's all about divide & rule & I think both right & left wing groups do this for their own agenda. To try to create a climate of fear for Muslim women as the article seemed to do then this is scaremongering.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> If you read what I wrote I said It was the statement you quoted ...
> 
> It's all about divide & rule & I think both right & left wing groups do this for their own agenda. To try to create a climate of fear for Muslim women as the article seemed to do then this is scaremongering.


Thats right let the actual racist off the hook.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Thats right let the actual racist off the hook.


Hahahahaha.... you are so funny in that you can't or won't read comments correctly if they are different opinions to your own ....


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> Hahahahaha.... you are so funny in that you can't or won't read comments correctly if they are different opinions to your own ....


I've read your comments Cleo.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> This!!! As a feminist I am against women being told what they can & can't wear but then I also feel that I cannot be ok with women who have been indoctrinated with the idea that they need to cover up ..... & yes, I am well aware that not all will feel like this but in many parts of the world women are fighting for their rights not wear this item of 'clothing' that has almost become shackles for them, they have lost the right to an education, to leave their homes without chaperones, etc ..... I find it sad that this is seen as acceptable & any criticism is deemed 'racist'


I actually agree with much of this, and I know some Muslim women choose to cover up & I have no problem with that. Each to their own.. But the point is Johnson is a politician, and as such, surely he has a responsibility not to inflame hatred ?


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Thats right let the actual racist off the hook.


Noush' you should realise by now, that if you're upper crust society, you're entitled to say and do exactly as you bloody well please.

One only has to reconsider that fool HRH Philip's unnecessary remarks and comments to know this is true.:Meh


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Noush' you should realise by now, that if you're upper crust society, you're entitled to say and do exactly as you bloody well please.
> 
> One only has to reconsider that fool HRH Philip's unnecessary remarks and comments to know this is true.:Meh


So true.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

I think this cartoon speaks volumes.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)




----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> I actually agree with much of this, and I know some Muslim women choose to cover up & I have no problem with that. Each to their own.. But the point is Johnson is a politician, and as such, surely he has a responsibility not to inflame hatred ?


I agree & have said that i think his comments were ill thought out & yes, some idiots will seize on these but it's a knee jerk reaction (IMO) to start using anecdotal comments to start implying that Muslim women are not safe in this county.

The comments by one 'woman' who started saying she felt she needed a 'chaperone' made me feel very uneasy as it seems to go back to what is happening in some Arab countries anyway .... makes me wonder if this whole story of 'hate crimes' isn't just an excuse being used to confine some Muslim women to their homes .... maybe I am way off & I hope I hope but some of the comments in that piece I didn't feel were right.

The woman who claimed that a silly comment made her feel so unsafe that she considered leaving the UK for a life in a Arab country? I mean really? A life of being covered up, no going out on your own, no driving , etc is preferable???


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

This is the traditional dress of Muslim women on the island where I worked for nine months every year. They didn't cover their head all the time, very often it was just to protect themselves from the sun. I never saw a hijab or a burka in the 7 years I lived there and the same was true on La Reunion which also has a large Muslim population.










By contrast at home in Durban, which has the largest Indian population of any city outside of India, it was quite normal to see Muslim women wearing all the different head coverings and the niqab was also fairly common, but i can't recall ever seeing the burka. No one thought anything about it especially as it was also normal to see Hindu wearing saris.










I know after being stoned in the car, when I came back to Durban I went to see a good Muslim friend of mine to ask him why attitudes could be so different. He explained that in the more fundamentalist countries. children, particularly boys, from a young age were mostly educated in Koranic Schools by teachers who often hold radical views and they never had the opportunity to learn about other religions.

In South Africa which holds a liberal view of Islam, children usually start off in the State system which brings them into contact with children of all religions, so by the time they go to a Koranic school to finish their education they have a greater understanding about the different faiths


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Cleo38 said:


> This!!! As a feminist I am against women being told what they can & can't wear but then I also feel that I cannot be ok with women who have been indoctrinated with the idea that they need to cover up ..... & yes, I am well aware that not all will feel like this but in many parts of the world women are fighting for their rights not wear this item of 'clothing' that has almost become shackles for them, they have lost the right to an education, to leave their homes without chaperones, etc ..... I find it sad that this is seen as acceptable & any criticism is deemed 'racist'


Fair comments indeed. Had Johnson used the opportunity to highlight this, even speak of support for the banning of full faced veils as applicable to some other EU countries which he apparently doesn't, no one would have batted an eyelid.

Instead he deliberately set out to offend others by suggesting they look like letterboxes or bank robbers as if he was the star of a 1970s comedy.

In doing so with the support of the press others believe they have a mandate to abuse others which is what this thread is all about.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree & have said that i think his comments were ill thought out & yes, some idiots will seize on these but it's a knee jerk reaction (IMO) to start using anecdotal comments to start implying that Muslim women are not safe in this county.
> 
> The comments by one 'woman' who started saying she felt she needed a 'chaperone' made me feel very uneasy as it seems to go back to what is happening in some Arab countries anyway .... makes me wonder if this whole story of 'hate crimes' isn't just an excuse being used to confine some Muslim women to their homes .... maybe I am way off & I hope I hope but some of the comments in that piece I didn't feel were right.
> 
> The woman who claimed that a silly comment made her feel so unsafe that she considered leaving the UK for a life in a Arab country? I mean really? A life of being covered up, no going out on your own, no driving , etc is preferable???


Thats the point though Cleo, they weren't ill thought out comments at all - they were very deliberate & calculated. He knew exactly what he was doing. As I said hes been meeting up with Trumps tactician Steve Bannon. Yes criticize the article, but please see what actual Muslims are saying about this. Islamophobia is rife as it is without that idiot adding fuel to the fire.

Bannon is an extremely dangerous man.

*Steve Bannon praises Boris Johnson and Tommy Robinson*
Former Trump adviser says MP has 'nothing to apologise for' after burqa remarks

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...nnon-praises-boris-johnson-and-tommy-robinson


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> OK, you may not believe those anecdotes, but don't you believe Tell Mama when they state incidents have risen as a direct result? Don't you think his comments make racists feel emboldened?


This is pretty old, but perhaps if there is an agenda to push from either side, perhaps all claims should be taken with some measure of saltiness.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/journal...8098/Muslim-hate-monitor-to-lose-backing.html


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I think it's possible to be deeply disturbed and frightened by the comments of those in power and also be concerned about the rights of women worldwide. It's not an either or scenario.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MilleD said:


> This is pretty old, but perhaps if there is an agenda to push from either side, perhaps all claims should be taken with some measure of saltiness.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/journal...8098/Muslim-hate-monitor-to-lose-backing.html


Comments like that from a senior politician are obviously going to embolden racists Millie. ,Look at what has happened over in the USA since Trump came on the scene. Boris is using the same tactics as Trump..


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

*Boris Johnson's guide to the perfect PR tea tray*









*
RUFF-RAH! Yes, it's me, Boris Johnson, the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, once this Brexit mess that I helped create is out of the way.*

This is my guide to the perfect teatray, a fantastic way of looking British and jolly charming while skilfully avoiding the provision of answers to any actual namby-pamby questions such as "are you trying to curry favour with racists?"

So, here we go, belt up:

http://newsthump.com/2018/08/13/bor...er&utm_campaign=wordpress&utm_content=newpost


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> It's all about divide & rule & I think both right & left wing groups do this for their own agenda. To try to create a climate of fear for Muslim women as the article seemed to do then this is scaremongering.


Indeed, the comments in Mr Johnsons article was designed for the sole purpose off fuelling the fear of Muslims. That they should result in the fallout of other unpleasant people repeating the slurs (and feeling they are at liberty to do so) is hardly surprising. Politicians love it when the population is fighting amongst themselves about relatively trivial matters for the wrong reasons - it's a very good distraction from whatever they are up to they don't want spotting...



Sacremist said:


> According to the Muslims who own the local petrol station, nothing in Islam says a woman should cover even her head, let alone a burka, they say that those who do, do so for cultural not religious reasons. It is a cultural tradition based upon patriarchal rules. Therefore, there is no comparison to be made between nuns and Muslims wearing burkas. Besides, women who become nuns do so through freedom of choice. Women who wear burkas do so because they have been indoctrinated into doing so by a patriarchal culture that favours men. In other words, they have been brain-washed into believing it is their choice, when in truth, they have never had a choice at all.


Surely, though, whether or not they do or don't have a free choice to wear a veil of any kind, they shouldn't be subjected to abusive behaviour. That's bullying for a choice of clothing at best, and victim blaming at worst.

And, as KK pointed out, men in suits have been responsible for a lot more harm than women in islamic dress stand a chance of doing.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> Noush' you should realise by now, that if you're upper crust society, you're entitled to say and do exactly as you bloody well please.
> 
> One only has to reconsider that fool HRH Philip's unnecessary remarks and comments to know this is true.:Meh


Just seen this, it made me think of your comment.

_The forelock-tugging nausea of the British press sometimes. Their willingness to explain away bigotry, so long as it's delivered with the amiable, 
aristocratic mien of a character in a Richard Curtis movie. Such a basic, basic grift and it keeps working on them._

.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> Surely, though, whether or not they do or don't have a free choice to wear a veil of any kind, they shouldn't be subjected to abusive behaviour. That's bullying for a choice of clothing at best, and victim blaming at worst.
> 
> And, as KK pointed out, men in suits have been responsible for a lot more harm than women in islamic dress stand a chance of doing.


Absolutely , and no one here is saying that . This hoohaa with Boris is causing people to overlook the fact that woman are oppressed and subjugated.

I would say men in suits have done a lot more harm than woman per se.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Absolutely , and no one here is saying that . This hoohaa with Boris is causing people to overlook the fact that woman are oppressed and subjugated.


I'd say his behaviour is actually a) advertising and b) encouraging oppression and subjugation. Unless calling people letterboxes is now a tool of empowerment and respect.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> I'd say his behaviour is actually a) advertising and b) encouraging oppression and subjugation. Unless calling people letterboxes is now a tool of empowerment and respect.


Yes , we're all saying he's a dick . No ones disagreeing with you and he is wrong. His behaviour is not acceptable but nor is overlooking oppression by men who aren't white and in suits which we're in danger of doing which is happening now and has been happening for many years .

BTW Are you offended because I used the word hooha ? Im not trying to trivalise what he did .


----------



## MilleD (Feb 15, 2016)

noushka05 said:


> Comments like that from a senior politician are obviously going to embolden racists Millie. ,Look at what has happened over in the USA since Trump came on the scene. Boris is using the same tactics as Trump..


I don't disagree, but I also think that it will be used by others to push their own agenda, and I don't believe everything I read just because I agree with it.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

http://www.continentaltelegraph.com...ritish-is-to-take-the-piss-out-of-everything/


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> Yes , we're all saying he's a dick . No ones disagreeing with you and he is wrong. His behaviour is not acceptable but nor is overlooking oppression by men who aren't white and in suits which we're in danger of doing which is happening now and has been happening for many years .


Yep. Those on the left and the right both are guilty of ignoring real issues because they don't suit their agenda, or co-opting others to score points. The child sex abuse rings in Rochdale, Rotherham and elsewhere which were covered up for as long as possible are still downplayed by people who think they're woke (Owen Jones enguin). Meanwhile Tommy Robinson et al pretend to give a shit about women and girls and gay rights so they can stick the boot in to Muslims which is laughable. They only care if 'their' white girls are raped by brown men.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> http://www.continentaltelegraph.com...ritish-is-to-take-the-piss-out-of-everything/


 I think we used to be a nation of micky takers but we did use to take the piss out of ourselves as well.

I think Black adder actor has joined in with a comment about humour. But Boris is an MP and should behave in a responsible manner ( which he seems incapable of doing ) ) and should be forced to make an apology at the very least . he should also apologise to his constituents for letting them down .


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MilleD said:


> I don't disagree, but I also think that it will be used by others to push their own agenda, and I don't believe everything I read just because I agree with it.


Hate speak is hate speak We should all unite in calling it out imo.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

picaresque said:


> Yep. Those on the left and the right both are guilty of ignoring real issues because they don't suit their agenda, or co-opting others to score points. The child sex abuse rings in Rochdale, Rotherham and elsewhere which were covered up for as long as possible are still downplayed by people who think they're woke (Owen Jones enguin). Meanwhile Tommy Robinson et al pretend to give a shit about women and girls and gay rights so they can stick the boot in to Muslims which is laughable. They only care if 'their' white girls are raped by brown men.


Have you got a link to Owen Jones downplaying the grooming scandal please? As I've only ever seen him speak out strongly against it.


----------



## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Sky Data Poll says:


> THE majority of Britons do not think describing women in burkas as looking like "letter boxes" and "bank robbers" is racist but the divide is closer on whether Boris Johnson should apologise for doing so, according to a new poll.




I am not saying anything else.

Plus before anyone rips into me I am not racist never have been.


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

stockwellcat. said:


> Plus before anyone rips into me I am not racist never have been.


:Hilarious


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Yes , we're all saying he's a dick . No ones disagreeing with you and he is wrong. His behaviour is not acceptable but nor is overlooking oppression by men who aren't white and in suits which we're in danger of doing which is happening now and has been happening for many years .
> 
> BTW Are you offended because I used the word hooha ? Im not trying to trivalise what he did .


 It takes much more than the word hooha to offend me, m'dear! 

Bit confused over which of my comment there is an issue with, though. Just because I don't mention it, doesn't mean I'm overlooking oppression by men who aren't white and in suits. However, I'd caution against trying to define freedom and oppression on our own terms. I work in a multicultural environment, with several ladies who wear headscarves of varying styles (non cover the face itself) Having talked with them (often because I've complimented them on a particularly nice headscarf) they do so at their choice because they believe it is a respectacle thing for them to do according to their religion.

Now, of course, I know I only have their word for it. And certainly the wider problem (countries/families where women are being forced to cover up and being held reponsible for sexual assaults when it's the men who need to learn to keep themselves under control) is appalling and should never be ignored. On the other hand, I don't think we gain anything by telling women who genuinely DO feel comfortable wearing their choice of headscarf that because some women don't get that choice they are supporting oppression.

At the end of the day, wider matters notwithstanding, we have a regrettable situation where a very clever man which a convincing buffoon act has made some carefully calculated disparaging comments about a section of the community already widely regarded with suspicion (or, as you point out, as oppressed), and it would appear these comments are propogating. Not a pleasant scenario, and certainly not one I could pass off as British humour.

THIS, on the other hand


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> It takes much more than the word hooha to offend me, m'dear!
> 
> However, I'd caution against trying to define freedom and oppression on our own terms. I work in a multicultural environment, with several ladies who wear headscarves of varying styles (non cover the face itself) Having talked with them (often because I've complimented them on a particularly nice headscarf) they do so at their choice because they believe it is a respectacle thing for them to do according to their religion.


It has been mentioned a couple of times that the thread is actually about the burka . The burka goes beyond being a respectable thing to wear according to their religion , some look like they have netting over the eyes. 
As I said earlier, years ago, women were expected to dress respectably and wear hats to ( Christian ) church on Sundays to cover their heads ( and men had to take their caps and hats off.!) We had a sunday best outfit and a hat as kids that we were only allowed to wear to church. I hated it !
How feel you feel about infant and junior muslim school girl wearing leg and arm coverings under their school uniforms . Do you feel they have a choice.

That goes for children of other religions , there is a Christian sect in this country where the girls where headscarves, boys and girls aren't allowed to watch the telly and they're not allowed to other children's parties . Some Muslim children aren't allowed to take part in any singing or dancing at school . 
Such a shame . They don't have any choices.
I'm not against religion , I'm happy to go to any religious ceremony . I find praying a comfort sometimes. Its just so sad and a great shame that people abuse it and use it to control others.



> THIS, on the other hand
> 
> View attachment 364227


haha !


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> Surely, though, whether or not they do or don't have a free choice to wear a veil of any kind, they shouldn't be subjected to abusive behaviour. That's bullying for a choice of clothing at best, and victim blaming at worst.
> 
> And, as KK pointed out, men in suits have been responsible for a lot more harm than women in islamic dress stand a chance of doing.


Of course, abuse is not acceptable, however, that would depend on an individual's definition of what is and what is not abusive. As the comedian pointed out in an earlier post, whether or not someone takes offense is purely subjective. In the grand scheme of things people have been called far worse than a letterbox.

Whether Boris Johnson's observations are calculated to incite racial hatred or not is arguable. People who respond to his remarks by committing bigoted attacks on Muslims would, in all likelihood, commit them anyway. They would find any excuse to do so. Nothing he says would turn a non-bigoted person into a bigot.

And, yes, white men in suits have caused more harm than women in burkas and in the country in which we live. Women who didn't conform to the patriarchal stereotype of how a woman should behave found themselves locked up in attics or worse: lunatic asylums. Read Jane Eyre. Women suffering from post natal depression might find themselves locked in a bedroom, forbidden from engaging in anything that might stimulate their intellect as they were subjected to Weir Mitchell's Rest Cure. Read The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman.

Johnson's remarks may have sparked controversy, but it doesn't negate the fact that these women believe they are choosing to wear this ridiculous garment, only because it has been indoctrinated into them that they should. White women around Europe and America were subjected to unfair treatment at the hands of men, until some of them said: enough is enough and they fought back. Not every woman probably agreed with those who fought back, but that didn't stop the suffragettes. Of course, there will be Muslim women who accept the Burka, but they need to be shown the light. Just as many white Europeans and Americans did all those years ago.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If my daughter came home wearing a burka, I’d be as horrified as I would be, if she’d joined a cult and I found a bottle of Kool Aid in her back pack. Whether a girl chooses to wear one or not, for me they are as much a symbol of oppression and hate, as a star on striped pyjamas. However anyone attacking someone wearing a burka should be arrested and it should most certainly not be tolerated in any way. Exactly the same as it should be if someone attacked another person who wasn’t wearing one. Of course Boris knew what he was saying. He was denigrating the clothing whilst saying people should retain the right to wear it, knowing it would stir up a hornet’s nest and get him back in the news. Imvho.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

After the saturation coverage of Labour anti semitism allegations by the right wing press this is good to see

What goes around comes around but I doubt the tabloids will cover this.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...o-launch-inquiry-into-tory-party-islamophobia


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

What a rubbish bunch of MP's we have , well not all but some of the major ones. 

 
Just seen on the news that the Israeli PM is pissed at Corbyn. Here's his tweet .



PM of Israel *✔* @IsraeliPM 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1029038057599762432The laying of a wreath by Jeremy Corbyn on the graves of the terrorist who perpetrated the Munich massacre and his comparison of Israel to the Nazis deserves unequivocal condemnation from everyone - left, right and everything in between.

 5:12 PM - Aug 13, 2018


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Have you got a link to Owen Jones downplaying the grooming scandal please? As I've only ever seen him speak out strongly against it.


In fairness no  although I can't find evidence of him speaking out strongly against it either. He's just a perfect example of a woke bloke who loves telling women in particular what their boundaries should be.



KittenKong said:


> After the saturation coverage of Labour anti semitism allegations by the right wing press this is good to see
> 
> What goes around comes around but I doubt the tabloids will cover this.
> 
> ...


Saturation?? Sorry but that sounds pretty dismissive of a serious problem (not a right-winger btw, still extremely disconcerted by anti-semitism on the left).


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

picaresque said:


> Saturation?? Sorry but that sounds pretty dismissive of a serious problem (not a right-winger btw, still extremely disconcerted by anti-semitism on the left).


 Indeed . Shame people think like this , the left wingers on twitter and you cannot argue with them,


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

kimthecat said:


> Indeed . Shame people think like this , the left wingers on twitter and you cannot argue with them,


Liberals are becoming increasingly _illiberal. _There are no shades of grey - deviate from the scripture even a little bit and you're a bigot, a racist and a raving right-winger.
I'm politically homeless these days.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

picaresque said:


> Saturation?? Sorry but that sounds pretty dismissive of a serious problem (not a right-winger btw, still extremely disconcerted by anti-semitism on the left).


Not intended to be. Anti semitism needs to be tackled like any other form of discrimination.

But why are only Labour seen as the bad ones where the same tabloids praise Johnson for his dispicable comments?

Two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

picaresque said:


> Liberals are becoming increasingly _illiberal. _There are no shades of grey - deviate from the scripture even a little bit and you're a bigot, a racist and a raving right-winger.
> I'm politically homeless these days.


 I just feel like giving up and not voting anymore . My area is a safe seat and my vote doesn't make any difference anyway.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> I just feel like giving up and not voting anymore . My area is a safe seat and my vote doesn't make any difference anyway.


I'm in the same position, it seems pointless voting.


----------



## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

There's no limits to this disgusting British bigotry.

Here's the tale of a British holiday maker who's holiday was "ruined" by the large amount of Spanish people- In Spain!

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-woman-81-claims-benidorm-13075153


----------



## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> There's no limits to this disgusting British bigotry.
> Here's the tale of a British holiday maker who's holiday was "ruined" by the large amount of Spanish people- In Spain!
> 
> https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-woman-81-claims-benidorm-13075153
> View attachment 364320


I can honestly say that I sympathise with the poor woman.

When I went to Spain I found the exact same problem and was so disgusted I decided to go to France where I found the country to be full of French people. Germany was full of Germans, Italy was full of Italians, Switzerland was full of Swiss and America was full of sh1t.
What's more I moved to Finland and found it to be over run by Finnish people.

Where have all the English people gone?


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> It has been mentioned a couple of times that the thread is actually about the burka
> 
> haha !


The thread is actually about a key politician putting the lives of innocent women in danger.

Maybe this helps? 
https://jantrust.org/about-us/












picaresque said:


> In fairness no  although I can't find evidence of him speaking out strongly against it either. He's just a perfect example of a woke bloke who loves telling women in particular what their boundaries should be.
> 
> Saturation?? Sorry but that sounds pretty dismissive of a serious problem (not a right-winger btw, still extremely disconcerted by anti-semitism on the left).


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

This thread being about MPs and Burkas must have got into my head , I had a nightmare where we had another Brexit referendum When i got to the voting station , it wasn't Bexit , it was the choice of Boris or Corbyn as the next PM  . then the ballot boxes changed into Boris and Corbyn who were wearing Burkas and we had to put the ballot papers through the slit of the burka of PM of our choice !
Weird.

ETA what a nightmare scenario . Boris or Jeremy as PM .


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Zaros said:


> I can honestly say that I sympathise with the poor woman.
> 
> When I went to Spain I found the exact same problem and was so disgusted I decided to go to France where I found the country to be full of French people. Germany was full of Germans, Italy was full of Italians, Switzerland was full of Swiss and America was full of sh1t.
> What's more I moved to Finland and found it to be over run by Finnish people.
> ...


I know it's disgusting isn't it, I'm sure these foreigners do it just to annoy us English!

I have the same problem here ....... you won't believe it but the country is overflowing with Hungarians, There are nearly as many living here as there are in Cornwall.

I'm trying my best to teach the local yokels English and how to cook fish and chips, but they're so damned stubborn and keep insisting that goulash tastes better.

I'm in total despair 'cos feel I'm fighting a losing battle.

Oh why can't Hungarian be more like us English?


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> This thread being about MPs and Burkas must have got into my head , I had a nightmare where we had another Brexit referendum When i got to the voting station , it wasn't Bexit , it was the choice of Boris or Corbyn as the next PM  . then the ballot boxes changed into Boris and Corbyn who were wearing Burkas and we had to put the ballot papers through the slit of the burka of PM of our choice !
> Weird.
> 
> ETA what a nightmare scenario . Boris or Jeremy as PM .


OMG that is hilarious!!!!!


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> This thread being about MPs and Burkas must have got into my head , I had a nightmare where we had another Brexit referendum When i got to the voting station , it wasn't Bexit , it was the choice of Boris or Corbyn as the next PM  . then the ballot boxes changed into Boris and Corbyn who were wearing Burkas and we had to put the ballot papers through the slit of the burka of PM of our choice !
> Weird.
> 
> ETA what a nightmare scenario . Boris or Jeremy as PM .


(It clearly didnt help)
I suspected you were really reading my posts

Tis indeed a nightmare. I mean, one supports; fox hunting, badger culling, austerity (meaning savage cuts to public services & our NHS & the welfare state), supports selling arms to despotic regimes, fracking, environmental degradation. Rejects action on climate change. The other supports the exact opposite. Tough choice indeed:Wideyed


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

picaresque said:


> In fairness no  although I can't find evidence of him speaking out strongly against it either. He's just a perfect example of a woke bloke who loves telling women in particular what their boundaries should be.
> 
> Saturation?? Sorry but that sounds pretty dismissive of a serious problem (not a right-winger btw, still extremely disconcerted by anti-semitism on the left).


Sorry @picaresque , I was rushing off out when I quoted you this morning but never actually responded.:Bag Heres a couple of examples after a quick google.

*Owen Jones *‏Verified account @OwenJones84
Sickening stuff from Rotherham. Unless we believe and support children when they come forward, men will keep getting away with raping girls


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Can't watch the video rn but will do. I'm having trouble seeing that one tweet as sincere knowing just how dismissive OJ is of women and girls generally (will post some highlights later).

Anyway this article popped up in my twitter feed this morning and covers the conflicted feelings many people have re: the niqab/burka wonderfully. I hope everyone on the thread will give it a read
https://www.feministcurrent.com/201...e-beyond-cultural-relativism-vs-universalism/


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

picaresque said:


> Can't watch the video rn but will do. I'm having trouble seeing that one tweet as sincere knowing just how dismissive OJ is of women and girls generally (will post some highlights later).
> 
> Anyway this article popped up in my twitter feed this morning and covers the conflicted feelings many people have re: the niqab/burka wonderfully. I hope everyone on the thread will give it a read
> https://www.feministcurrent.com/201...e-beyond-cultural-relativism-vs-universalism/


I think you'll be surprised when you see the video then. I can't say as I've noticed him say anything dismissive of women & girls son will be very interested, thank you.

(will read the article more thoroughly later. Thank you for that too.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I couldn’t read all of it, but can I point out that men wear make-up too. In the past (and sometimes today) they wore more make up than the women did. The burka can’t, imho, be compared to make-up.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

picaresque said:


> Can't watch the video rn but will do. I'm having trouble seeing that one tweet as sincere knowing just how dismissive OJ is of women and girls generally (will post some highlights later).
> 
> Anyway this article popped up in my twitter feed this morning and covers the conflicted feelings many people have re: the niqab/burka wonderfully. I hope everyone on the thread will give it a read
> https://www.feministcurrent.com/201...e-beyond-cultural-relativism-vs-universalism/


I agree it is an interesting subject & I don't think it is clear cut. I do agree with some of the points the author raises in this but I cannot agree that wearing make-up is in the same league of oppression at all. I wear make-up at times yet I can still drive a car, still ride a horse, still run, still feel the sun on my face, the cool breeze on my skin, etc .... none of this is possible if covered in dark, heavy fabric.

I can also understand why this would be banned from certain public spaces, banks are notorious for stipulating about removing head gear such as motorcycle helmets, so why would this be any different for a woman in a burqua? Surely these garments can have the face panel removed for such spaces if there is a legal requirement for this? I think it is terrible that a woman is unable to even do this small thing, & no way does that speak of a confident woman making choices for herself if this is too much to do ...

And I understand that there are many types of dress that women wear, but regardless of our perceptions of patriarchal oppression the fact is that the burqua or niqab are restrictive, divisive & dehumanising on so many levels not at all like other forms of dress which will cover hair &/or neck/shoulders which obviously will provide modestly but do not impede on a woman's ability to carry on with a 'normal' life or segregate her from the society she lives in.

I can honestly say that some women that I work with who choose to wear a hijab (or similar) I barely notice, it's not a big deal ... tbh I haven't really thought about it until now but a burqua is something completely different.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> I couldn't read all of it, but can I point out that men wear make-up too. In the past (and sometimes today) they wore more make up than the women did. The burka can't, imho, be compared to make-up.


I 100% agree. The assumption in that article is that women wear makeup for men, that's not true. People choose to wear makeup because it makes them feel good. There's nothing wrong in taking pride in your appearance and if wearing makeup makes someone feel good about themselves, I see no harm in that. Both men and women dress and adorn themselves in clothes and jewellery they feel they look good in and have their hair styled in a way to enhance their features. I wear makeup when I go out, but rest assured, I'm not wearing it so I can attract the attention of men or women for that matter.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> OMG that is hilarious!!!!!


Yeah but a chilling prospect though .


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

The choice to wear make-up again isn't something that happens in a vacuum, as stated in the article. It is obviously not in the same league as having to shroud oneself in order to go out in public but it's worth examining exactly why we are conditioned to feel better about ourselves by painting our faces.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Elles said:


> I couldn't read all of it, but can I point out that men wear make-up too. In the past (and sometimes today) they wore more make up than the women did. The burka can't, imho, be compared to make-up.


High heeled shoes began as a male fashion too in the sixteenth century or thereabouts. They weren't debilitatingly high and an impediment to proper walking/running back then. It's no coincidence that women's clothing is often restrictive in various ways, whether it's burkas or high heels.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sacremist said:


> I 100% agree. The assumption in that article is that women wear makeup for men, that's not true. People choose to wear makeup because it makes them feel good. There's nothing wrong in taking pride in your appearance and if wearing makeup makes someone feel good about themselves, I see no harm in that. Both men and women dress and adorn themselves in clothes and jewellery they feel they look good in and have their hair styled in a way to enhance their features. I wear makeup when I go out, but rest assured, I'm not wearing it so I can attract the attention of men or women for that matter.


Hmm, see I can sort of see what the author was getting at. In a way that the women have been indoctrinated in to feeling they have to wear a burqua I do feel l that women in the west have been brainwashed in to this whole idea that we must be pretty & look 'nice'.

Even in 2018 female celebrities are described as 'brave' if they dare go out without slap on (or so the media would describe them)..... WTF is that all about?! I remember a picture of the stunning Tilda Swinton at an awards ceremony & a (female) journalist described her as 'arrogant' because she chose not to wear make-up. :Wideyed

I think the obsession with looks is becoming similar for men now with pressure to look a certain way & (in my uneducated opinion that is) & I think it's because this is all about big business now. There are ££££'s to be made playing on insecurities of all us regarding diet, make up , surgery, etc. Even intelligent women somehow fall victim to the bogus claims of these beauty companies, spending £££'s on a cream that promises everything yet in reality is the same as the cheap crap but just in a nicer pot ....


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

People have been painting, piercing, tattooing etc for millennia. People of both sexes. Even animals do it, it just takes them longer, because they have to evolve it, we can make it. It’s nothing like the burka. If a man told me I could only go out if I was wearing make-up, it would be unreasonable behaviour, controlling and grounds for divorce. The press court controversy, it sells. I’m astonished that anyone thinks it’s the same.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Cleo38 @Sacremist @picaresque I saw it on Twitter this morning .

Men and women are always subjected to pressures from their society's current trends and fads . 
I come from a time when wearing too much make up was tarty , pierced ears were "common" and tattoos were for sailors and look at us now 

I find it a weak argument. Many Muslim women wear head coverings to be modest yet wear heavy make up , apparently then we wear make up for men
so is wearing make up being modest too . A bit of an oxymoron .

A comment from the bottom of the article by a Russian woman - -

Ангелина (Angelina) • a year ago

" I live in Moscow, Russia - a very multi-national and multi-religious city. And let me share some insight.
In the nineties, due to effects of the Soviet policy that fought muslim oppression of women, there were almost no veiled women on streets. No veiled girls in schools. Only elder ladies used veils. Even the traditional national costumes were adapted so that there was no face-covering.
Now. I don't think Soviet policy was all good and nice; it was ruthless towards religious people and all that. But still, women were free to go bare-headed.

Then the old bans were lifted. The premise was all good and nice: we live now in a free state, all religious expression is okay, all that. The effect was not so nice.
When I was in school, my Muslim classmate started wearing hijab (that is, head-scarf) in her 17, because "she is a woman now, and women must cover their heads". She loved P.E., though, and was a captain of our school's basketball team. She considered hijab her free choice and a gesture of religious pride.
My niece is seven, and some girls in her class already wear hijabs, because "there are boys in school". Those girls also can't go to P.E. lessons, because it means showing more than their hands and face to males. And no swimming pool for them, too. And mothers of those girls wear burkas, and rarely they go to school meetings. It's men's job to speak, after all.
Several years ago there were no burka-clad women on streets; only hijabi were. Now I see women in burkas more and more frequently. "

I find this very sad .

@StormyThai You said " Many women and children do have a choice...in fact I'd be happy to say that most women and children that live in UK/Europe have the choice."

I would say most don't in the UK and in other western countries it seems they don't either too .


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Hmm, see I can sort of see what the author was getting at. In a way that the women have been indoctrinated in to feeling they have to wear a burqua I do feel l that women in the west have been brainwashed in to this whole idea that we must be pretty & look 'nice'.
> 
> Even in 2018 female celebrities are described as 'brave' if they dare go out without slap on (or so the media would describe them)..... WTF is that all about?! I remember a picture of the stunning Tilda Swinton at an awards ceremony & a (female) journalist described her as 'arrogant' because she chose not to wear make-up. :Wideyed
> 
> I think the obsession with looks is becoming similar for men now with pressure to look a certain way & (in my uneducated opinion that is) & I think it's because this is all about big business now. There are ££££'s to be made playing on insecurities of all us regarding diet, make up , surgery, etc. Even intelligent women somehow fall victim to the bogus claims of these beauty companies, spending £££'s on a cream that promises everything yet in reality is the same as the cheap crap but just in a nicer pot ....


As Elle's says, both men and women have been beautifying their bodies for a very long time. If wearing makeup is something that has been indoctrinated into us, maybe washing bad smells from our bodies has as well. Maybe we should take it further still and start wearing sackcloth, unwashed, of course; stop brushing our hair or cleaning our nails.

Birds preen themselves, cats lick themselves clean and I'm sure they feel much more comfortable after so doing. That is all human beings are doing: cleaning themselves up and making themselves feel good.

There is absolutely no comparison with wearing a burka.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> @Cleo38 @Sacremist @picaresque I saw it on Twitter this morning .
> 
> Men and women are always subjected to pressures from their society's current trends and fads .
> I come from a time when wearing too much make up was tarty , pierced ears were "common" and tattoos were for sailors and look at us now
> ...


Yes, I don't for one minute think the two are on the same level but I do feel that women have been subjected to alot more pressure to look a certain way & I think this has been used as a form of control .... it's maybe just a more subtle way of doing it & we have normalised it as the author states.

When I was India I was on a boat sat oppositte two women & both had niqabs on yet both had very heavy eye make up on which I really didn't understand & really wanted to ask but they didn't speak English unfortunately (I think someone said they were Egyptian), some I did ask afterwards said they were adopting 'western ways' .... which I found odd considering they were swathed in black 

I also read that comment at the end of the article & it made me sad


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

picaresque said:


> The choice to wear make-up again isn't something that happens in a vacuum, as stated in the article. It is obviously not in the same league as having to shroud oneself in order to go out in public but it's worth examining exactly why we are conditioned to feel better about ourselves by painting our faces.


Yes true ,
People adorn themselves with tattoos and jewellery , I don't see much difference between those and makeup .
I suppose Ive hardly worn makeup up or dressed up except for occasions like parties etc , having worked with animals and always out walking dogs etc but my sister worked in an office at reception and always put her face on . She still does.

ETA really glad that men wear deodorant now instead of masculine sweat


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Hmm, see I can sort of see what the author was getting at. In a way that the women have been indoctrinated in to feeling they have to wear a burqua I do feel l that women in the west have been brainwashed in to this whole idea that we must be pretty & look 'nice'.


It wasn't so long ago that even here in the UK that for a woman, attracting the right kind of husband was make or break, or their partner was a matter of politics, and whether or not they loved their husband or were loved in return mattered little. At the richer end of the scale particularly; society balls were little more than trading halls for unmarried women.



Cleo38 said:


> Even in 2018 female celebrities are described as 'brave' if they dare go out without slap on (or so the media would describe them)..... WTF is that all about?! I remember a picture of the stunning Tilda Swinton at an awards ceremony & a (female) journalist described her as 'arrogant' because she chose not to wear make-up. :Wideyed


Yet wear more makeup than someone approves of and all of a sudden all manner of unsavoury 'slapper' remarks (and worse) start getting thrown about. Yet more fuel to the insecurity.



Cleo38 said:


> I think the obsession with looks is becoming similar for men now with pressure to look a certain way & (in my uneducated opinion that is) & I think it's because this is all about big business now. There are ££££'s to be made playing on insecurities of all us regarding diet, make up , surgery, etc. Even intelligent women somehow fall victim to the bogus claims of these beauty companies, spending £££'s on a cream that promises everything yet in reality is the same as the cheap crap but just in a nicer pot ....


I wonder how many businesses would go bankrupt if everyone woke up one morning not only happy with the way they looked, but accepting of everyone else's look as well...



Sacremist said:


> As Elle's says, both men and women have been beautifying their bodies for a very long time. If wearing makeup is something that has been indoctrinated into us, maybe washing bad smells from our bodies has as well. Maybe we should take it further still and start wearing sackcloth, unwashed, of course; stop brushing our hair or cleaning our nails.
> 
> Birds preen themselves, cats lick themselves clean and I'm sure they feel much more comfortable after so doing. That is all human beings are doing: cleaning themselves up and making themselves feel good.
> 
> There is absolutely no comparison with wearing a burka.


Now, come on. There is no comparison between basic bathing and makeup. One is a matter of necessary hygiene. The other is purely optional bling.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Women in the west can go out with no make-up on and burn their bras. I wonder if you could say the same about burkas.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> @Cleo38 @Sacremist @picaresque I saw it on Twitter this morning .
> 
> Men and women are always subjected to pressures from their society's current trends and fads .
> I come from a time when wearing too much make up was tarty , pierced ears were "common" and tattoos were for sailors and look at us now
> ...


I too have seen many Muslim women wearing the hijab, who are very heavily made-up. It is an oxymoron, I agree.

I don't really have an issue with the hijab as I do the burka. I can remember my mum and other women of her generation wearing a headscarf. Admittedly, they didn't swim in them, but they were common attire. My hubby used to wear a scarf on his head in summer to protect him from the sun. I say did because that was back when he had hair. Now he's bald, he doesn't, because it leaves the top of his head white when his face is brown. Lol! Another example of wanting to feel good. Walking around with a white head doesn't do it for him.


----------



## picaresque (Jun 25, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Hmm, see I can sort of see what the author was getting at. In a way that the women have been indoctrinated in to feeling they have to wear a burqua I do feel l that women in the west have been brainwashed in to this whole idea that we must be pretty & look 'nice'.
> 
> Even in 2018 female celebrities are described as 'brave' if they dare go out without slap on (or so the media would describe them)..... WTF is that all about?! I remember a picture of the stunning Tilda Swinton at an awards ceremony & a (female) journalist described her as 'arrogant' because she chose not to wear make-up. :Wideyed
> 
> I think the obsession with looks is becoming similar for men now with pressure to look a certain way & (in my uneducated opinion that is) & I think it's because this is all about big business now. There are ££££'s to be made playing on insecurities of all us regarding diet, make up , surgery, etc. Even intelligent women somehow fall victim to the bogus claims of these beauty companies, spending £££'s on a cream that promises everything yet in reality is the same as the cheap crap but just in a nicer pot ....


+1 Men are definitely being targeted now with all the same tat, wrinkle cream etc. Banking on insecurity.

@Sacremist , @kimthecat Think about a person who was going out for the night, somewhere moderately fancy. All that is required of a man is a shower, clean teeth, maybe a shave depending on the current facial hair fashion and a clean shirt - he's presentable. A woman has painstaking make up to apply, style her hair, and don't forget hair removal everywhere south of the eyebrows, and the outfit should be carefully chosen and has to cover a multitude of 'sins' like if she has a single ounce of excess fat. Otherwise she hasn't made an effort, is a frump, has let herself go. If said woman is in the public eye she'll be shamed in the press. On the other had if she takes it too far she's a slag. That's the difference.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> It wasn't so long ago that even here in the UK that for a woman, attracting the right kind of husband was make or break, or their partner was a matter of politics, and whether or not they loved their husband or were loved in return mattered little. At the richer end of the scale particularly; society balls were little more than trading halls for unmarried women.
> 
> Yet wear more makeup than someone approves of and all of a sudden all manner of unsavoury 'slapper' remarks (and worse) start getting thrown about. Yet more fuel to the insecurity.
> 
> ...


Bathing is a relatively new phenomenon; it wasn't common practice in centuries past.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Elles said:


> Women in the west can go out with no make-up on and burn their bras. I wonder if you could say the same about burkas.


I rarely wear makeup these days. Like @kimthecat, it reserved purely for nights out and I don't go out at night very often. If I go out to lunch with friends during the day, I never wear makeup.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> Bathing is a relatively new phenomenon; it wasn't common practice in centuries past.


Indeed, and bathing as frequently as many now do may not be great for our biosystems, come to that.

However, that it wasn't common practice (yet makeup was) is hardly a compelling argument for comparison. We have learned a lot about hygiene and the spread of nasties since then, much the same as we no longer use lead in cosmetics because we now know it is toxic. Hygiene is still common sense, and makeup is still bling.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

picaresque said:


> +1 Men are definitely being targeted now with all the same tat, wrinkle cream etc. Banking on insecurity.
> 
> @Sacremist , @kimthecat Think about a person who was going out for the night, somewhere moderately fancy. All that is required of a man is a shower, clean teeth, maybe a shave depending on the current facial hair fashion and a clean shirt - he's presentable. A woman has painstaking make up to apply, style her hair, and don't forget hair removal everywhere south of the eyebrows, and the outfit should be carefully chosen and has to cover a multitude of 'sins' like if she has a single ounce of excess fat. Otherwise she hasn't made an effort, is a frump, has let herself go. If said woman is in the public eye she'll be shamed in the press. On the other had if she takes it too far she's a slag. That's the difference.


I don't agree, I have friends who never wear makeup, not even on a night out. My mother never wore makeup in my lifetime with her. Yes, the press does make a big thing of it with celebs, but that doesn't mean all women take notice of the press. I certainly don't. Celebs mostly do, but celebs tend to be egotistical anyway and it's their ego that makes them susceptible to jives from the press. I couldn't give two hoots what others think about me, so I pick and choose when I want to wear makeup and when I don't.

As for men's grooming: my hubby hates shaving. He sees it as a major chore and only does it because being clean shaven makes him feel better. He can choose, though, whether to be clean shaven or grow a beard. He wears after shave, tie pins, rings, sometimes cuff links. He applies mascara to his greying moustache. If he had a spot, he would ask me to apply concealer for him. It makes him feel better.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> Indeed, and bathing as frequently as many now do may not be great for our biosystems, come to that.
> 
> However, that it wasn't common practice (yet makeup was) is hardly a compelling argument for comparison. We have learned a lot about hygiene and the spread of nasties since then, much the same as we no longer use lead in cosmetics because we now know it is toxic. Hygiene is still common sense, and makeup is still bling.


And how hygienic is it wearing a burka in hot weather. In Egypt, I saw a Muslim woman standing in the pool in her burka.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Sacremist said:


> And how hygienic is it wearing a burka in hot weather. In Egypt, I saw a Muslim woman standing in the pool in her burka.


That's one impressive tangent swerve, but dwellers in hot/desert countries have been wearing long, loose clothing for millennia for practical reasons. I've done fully clothed lifesaving training in pools more than once, too, and I'm sure most pools have had their fair share of clothed people jumping in and probably people widdling in them too, so I'm not really sure what your point is?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> That's one impressive tangent swerve, but dwellers in hot/desert countries have been wearing long, loose clothing for millennia for practical reasons. I've done fully clothed lifesaving training in pools more than once, too, and I'm sure most pools have had their fair share of clothed people jumping in and probably people widdling in them too, so I'm not really sure what your point is?


Oh Yuck ! Thank goD for chlorine 

Arabs in the desert wear white robes because apparently black ones retain more heat . Why are the burkas black only ? Perhaps in western countries wearing other colours would be less depressing though not red!


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> That's one impressive tangent swerve, but dwellers in hot/desert countries have been wearing long, loose clothing for millennia for practical reasons. I've done fully clothed lifesaving training in pools more than once, too, and I'm sure most pools have had their fair share of clothed people jumping in and probably people widdling in them too, so I'm not really sure what your point is?


I don't see how not washing your underarms, for instance, is likely to lead to serious disease. You may end up smelling pretty bad, but you won't suffer any ill effects. I can understand washing private parts, cleaning teeth are essential to hygiene, but walking around with greasy hair isn't.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> I too have seen many Muslim women wearing the hijab, who are very heavily made-up. It is an oxymoron, I agree.
> 
> I don't really have an issue with the hijab as I do the burka. I can remember my mum and other women of her generation wearing a headscarf. Admittedly, they didn't swim in them, but they were common attire. My hubby used to wear a scarf on his head in summer to protect him from the sun. I say did because that was back when he had hair. Now he's bald, he doesn't, because it leaves the top of his head white when his face is brown. Lol! Another example of wanting to feel good. Walking around with a white head doesn't do it for him.


:Hilarious @your hubby . My mum wore headscarfs too, very fashionable and tres chic in the fifties and sixties . Also useful for covering up your hair curlers ! 

















Ive got some old ones for when its windy and I walk the dogs . stops my hair blowing all over the place .
I tried to get a new one a couple of years ago and non of the dept stores stocked them . Not fashionable now.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Arabs in the desert wear white robes because apparently black ones retain more heat . Why are the burkas black only ? Perhaps in western countries wearing other colours would be less depressing though not red!


A quick tour of islamic Q&A site reveals there is no colour restriction on female clothing (providing it is 'not a colour reserved exclusively for men', whatever that means... ) as long as it is not attractive or desire provoking to men. Black, therefore, seems to be encouraged as being the least attractive colour (as white can go see through).

This is one of the reasons I find the issues surrounding exgtreme islamic female dress so much more tricky than any other culture, as whilst in the west it is framed as (and by and large believed to be, judging by my conversations) a choice made to honour their religion, in reality the original theological interpretation behind it is solely focused on shifting the blame for sexual misconduct by men onto women (under the excuse of modesty and keeping them safe). It will take time, patience and understanding to break through that mindset - mainly the male mindset, I expect.

None off the head covering wearers I personally know at work, though, wear black. I, ironically, HAVE worn a black headscarf to church sometimes


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Both men and woman in the 17c /18c would wear white face make up that included lead . it covered up pox marks and also make up rouged faces etc . They wore ludicrous wigs too

There was a high incidence of lead-poisoning in the 18th century because of the fashion for red and white lead makeup and powder see -

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/objectretrieval/node/111

The 18th Century

Hair and Cosmetics in the eighteenth century

As transport became more organised, local shops could keep supplies of foreign goods, cosmetics and wigs included; and out-of-town people could paint themselves as easily as courtiers; the growth of cities at this time signalled the arrival of a new moneyed class. The new people were not aristocracy, they were primarily town dwellers and their aim was sophistication. (Angeloglou: p70)

Although this era was known as the Age of Enlightenment, most fashionable men and women poisoned themselves with red and white lead make-up and powder. (Swinfield: p97) The make-up they used caused the eyes to swell and become inflamed, attacked the enamel on the teeth and changed the texture of the skin causing it to blacken, it was also not uncommon to suffer baldness, and for a time it became fashionable to shave the front hairline. It was known that heavy use of lead could cause death. (Baker: p210)


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> A
> None off the head covering wearers I personally know at work, though, wear black. I, ironically, HAVE worn a black headscarf to church sometimes


So have I , to funerals  Women are wearing black or dark blue to weddings now. People used to wear black when in mourning then they just used to wear black armbands .


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Barristers in this country still wear those ridiculous wigs, don’t they? I’m also pretty sure that many politicians should be wearing clown makeup!


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sacremist said:


> Barristers in this country still wear those ridiculous wigs, don't they? I'm also pretty sure that many politicians should be wearing clown makeup!


:Hilarious They should but I hope they dont . Clowns scare me . Killer clowns !


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Haven't made it to the end of the thread yet, but really interesting discussion comparing make-up to burkas. 
I generally don't wear make-up. At most I'll slap on some eyeliner or mascara, but most days I don't even bother with that - yes even going to work as a professional. I wear glasses, I figure you can't see if I'm wearing mascara or not. 
Here's the big difference. The consequences for me not wearing make-up in an environment where it's expected that women wear make up, are... Well, none really. 
The consequences for not wearing a burka in an environment where it is expected are... Often pretty serious. So that right there ends the comparison for me. 
And yes, a burka is very, very different than assorted head coverings.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sacremist said:


> And how hygienic is it wearing a burka in hot weather. In Egypt, I saw a Muslim woman standing in the pool in her burka.


Hindu women also go into swimming pools fully clothed.

We had a Hindu lady staying at my son's hotel and every morning around 5 am she'd stand in the swimming pool (fully clothed) and pray.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Magyarmum said:


> Hindu women also go into swimming fully clothed.
> 
> We had a Hindu lady staying at my son's hotel and every morning around 5 am she'd stand in the swimming pool (fully clothed) and pray.


Hubby and I were laughing. The Burka kept floating up, she was not having an easy time of keeping herself covered and after a few minutes climbed out of the pool dripping buckets of water as she walked.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> :Hilarious They should but I hope they dont . Clowns scare me . Killer clowns !


It's the most dangerous politicians who should wear the killer clown makeup to ward off potential voters:


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)




----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> really.
> The consequences for not wearing a burka in an environment where it is expected are... Often pretty serious. So that right there ends the comparison for me.
> And yes, a burka is very, very different than assorted head coverings.


That's very a good point.



Sacremist said:


> View attachment 364411


Argggh ,Feck , You moo ! :Hilarious


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Here's a very interesting video about the burqa and women in Afghanistan.


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

In South Africa, black women will often put a whitener on their faces in order to make their skin paler.










As a black friend of mine once said "Isn't it crazy, we blacks try and stay out of the sun and put all kinds of creams on our faces trying to get paler, and you whites lie out in the sun for hours trying to get darker"!


----------



## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> Many women and children do have a choice...in fact I'd be happy to say that most women and children that live in UK/Europe have the choice.
> I'm not saying that women haven't been oppressed due to religious beliefs...I think all religions are guilty of that even in the modern world and the Amish are the worst of the lot IMHO
> We need to speak to the women involved..ask them and listen to the answers! If the majority say they that they don't feel they have a choice and would rather not wear a hijab or burka THEN we need to fight for their rights to wear what they wish.
> I do see what you are saying, I just don't agree that most in the western world don't have a choice.
> ...


There is nothing in the Quran to say a woman has to dress head to toe, tis a culture thing, not religious. All the Quran says they should lower their hems and cover their bosoms.


----------



## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> Here's a very interesting video about the burqa and women in Afghanistan.


I have a friend who was a missionary in Afghanistan. As they said in the video it was the arrival of the taliban which changed everything. During the taliban years women had to cover up almost totally. If not they would be taken out and tortured with electrical prods. One woman had to endure this just for showing her wrist when handing money over to a shopkeeper. If they wanted to go out they had to have a chaperone, a five year old boy was considered a suitable candidate for the job.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Magyarmum said:


> In South Africa, black women will often put a whitener on their faces in order to make their skin paler.
> 
> As a black friend of mine once said "Isn't it crazy, we blacks try and stay out of the sun and put all kinds of creams on our faces trying to get paler, and you whites lie out in the sun for hours trying to get darker"!


In India it is big business selling skin bleaching creams, they were everywhere & I was quite shocked at the extent especially as being a white person who always wanted to be browner (but ending up more lobster red). I had lots of people wanting to touch my skin, which as someone who isn't touchy feely at all really freaked me out to be pawed at by strangers but there was no reserve there amongst people they would just come up & be quite blunt & ask loads of questions which was funny in some ways.

There was also something on Woman's Hour the other week about how dark skinned black woman were considered somehow less feminine by some black men in their communities & how this is a 'thing' & is quite common, I honestly had never heard of that at all.


----------



## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Did anyone see the Last Leg?


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Happy Paws said:


> Some people feel he is right and feel threatened when they can't see who's face is covered they don't they know if it's a man or a woman under the burkha


Some banks have a sign asking bikers to remove their crash helmets (presumably so they can be identified in the event of an ''incident'') but I've not heard of burqa wearers being asked to uncover their faces.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/04/suspect-burqa-counter-terror-restrictions

Also I find it odd that they are allowed to drive while wearing one as their peripheral vision is affected.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)




----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Calvine said:


> Some banks have a sign asking bikers to remove their crash helmets (presumably so they can be identified in the event of an ''incident'' but I've not heard of burqa wearers being asked to uncover their faces.


As someone who used to be a biker and used to get highly irritated at being asked to remove my lid when I was just paying for something quickly I actually fully understand this due to the fact that many bank robbers used a helmet OR ski mask to avoid detection...beyond petty theft (which all walks of life can be guilty of) I don't think I have heard of many (any) bank robbers adopting the Burka as a form of disguise.

I don't buy into that rhetoric at all I'm afraid.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

StormyThai said:


> As someone who used to be a biker and used to get highly irritated at being asked to remove my lid when I was just paying for something quickly I actually fully understand this due to the fact that many bank robbers used a helmet OR ski mask to avoid detection...beyond petty theft (which all walks of life can be guilty of) I don't think I have heard of many (any) bank robbers adopting the Burka as a form of disguise.
> 
> I don't buy into that rhetoric at all I'm afraid.


There was this one in a jewellers shop, not a bank but the burqua being used as a disguise for a crime ...... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4485004/Gang-dressed-burkas-jailed-230-years.html

And why would it be acceptable for one person to have a face covering & not another? As I said earlier I can completely understand why certain places require people to be easily identifiable & it is not unreasonable to ask everyone to adopt this rule.

Why would it be so wrong to ask a woman in a burqua to simply remove the front panel of the garment for a few moments in a certain space? How could anyone feel threatened by doing this? And if they do then that says more about them as a person tbh


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> There was this one in a jewellers shop, not a bank but the burqua being used as a disguise for a crime ...... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4485004/Gang-dressed-burkas-jailed-230-years.html
> 
> And why would it be acceptable for one person to have a face covering & not another? As I said earlier I can completely understand why certain places require people to be easily identifiable & it is not unreasonable to ask everyone to adopt this rule.
> 
> Why would it be so wrong to ask a woman in a burqua to simply remove the front panel of the garment for a few moments in a certain space? How could anyone feel threatened by doing this? And if they do then that says more about them as a person tbh


I think they should *banned*, as far as know, no where in the Koran does it say a women should cover their faces, it just a personal thing they want to do.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Why would it be so wrong to ask a woman in a burqua to simply remove the front panel of the garment for a few moments in a certain space? How could anyone feel threatened by doing this? And if they do then that says more about them as a person tbh


Depends if you are talking about the burka or the niqab. In the burka the eye panel is sewn in, so you can't just remove it.

With the niqab, you could physically remove the lower half panel, but that kicks off a whole round of ethical dilemma as some would be happy to do so, some would not be happy to do so unless it was only in the presence of a female, some would want it to be a female muslim, and others wouldn't be happy to do so unless their husband was present. You have to bear in mind that if they believe it is right for them to wear the niqab for reasons of modesty (and especially those that believe only their husband should see them without it on), taking it off isn't the same as taking off a helmet that is only worn for safety and protection. It would be more akin to asking a non-muslim woman to strip to their underwear as far as they are concerned.

And please note, I'm not saying that is RIGHT, just that it is how it is. And that there may be consequences for some women if they did so and their families found out - honour killings have happened for less even in the UK.


----------



## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

From what I’m reading here, the girls who can choose to wear it, should be campaigning against it on behalf of the girls who are forced to wear it and can’t speak for themselves, and not be so selfish.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Magyarmum said:


> Here's a very interesting video about the burqa and women in Afghanistan.


 The difference! As I said earlier , the same thing happened in the Middle East. When you see old news reels , its a shock to see the freedom they had back then . Its so sad.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> There was this one in a jewellers shop, not a bank but the burqua being used as a disguise for a crime ...... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4485004/Gang-dressed-burkas-jailed-230-years.html
> 
> And why would it be acceptable for one person to have a face covering & not another? As I said earlier I can completely understand why certain places require people to be easily identifiable & it is not unreasonable to ask everyone to adopt this rule.
> 
> Why would it be so wrong to ask a woman in a burqua to simply remove the front panel of the garment for a few moments in a certain space? How could anyone feel threatened by doing this? And if they do then that says more about them as a person tbh


I knew someone would come with a link to show that some criminal had used the opportunity lol
Personally I don't feel that all bikers, people in ski masks or Burka are out to commit crimes so IMO none of them should be told to remove their head gear...however, ski masks and helmets are not worn for personal religious reasons 

I think relating Burka's to helmets isn't really comparable and is just used to deflect and scare people..


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Depends if you are talking about the burka or the niqab. In the burka the eye panel is sewn in, so you can't just remove it.
> 
> With the niqab, you could physically remove the lower half panel, but that kicks off a whole round of ethical dilemma as some would be happy to do so, some would not be happy to do so unless it was only in the presence of a female, some would want it to be a female muslim, and others wouldn't be happy to do so unless their husband was present. You have to bear in mind that if they believe it is right for them to wear the niqab for reasons of modesty (and especially those that believe only their husband should see them without it on), taking it off isn't the same as taking off a helmet that is only worn for safety and protection. It would be more akin to asking a non-muslim woman to strip to their underwear as far as they are concerned.
> 
> And please note, I'm not saying that is RIGHT, just that it is how it is. And that there may be consequences for some women if they did so and their families found out - honour killings have happened for less even in the UK.


Oh yes, I do understand. Personally I don't feel exceptions should be made, if people (any people) won't show their faces uncovered in certain areas then they should be excluded. It's not discriminating against people IMO as a choice of garment to wear that is not a religious requirement (as the burqua isn't) is just that ... a choice.

I also feel that if women are then restricted more where they can go if they choose to cover their faces then that is not the fault of the establishments who stipulate rules but more the social unit these women may be part of who are policing them so heavily. Surely we should be condemning these people rather than a bank or petrol station who choose to have rules regarding facial coverings.



Elles said:


> From what I'm reading here, the girls who can choose to wear it, should be campaigning against it on behalf of the girls who are forced to wear it and can't speak for themselves, and not be so selfish.


Yes .... exactly this!!!!


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

StormyThai said:


> I knew someone would come with a link to show that some criminal had used the opportunity lol
> Personally I don't feel that all bikers, people in ski masks or Burka are out to commit crimes so IMO none of them should be told to remove their head gear...however, ski masks and helmets are not worn for personal religious reasons
> 
> I think relating Burka's to helmets isn't really comparable and is just used to deflect and scare people..


Burkas aren't worn for religious reasons either, though; it has nothing to do with Islam.


----------



## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sacremist said:


> Burkas aren't worn for religious reasons either, though; it has nothing to do with Islam.


Although I know they don't "have" to wear the Burka...I have yet to see a non Muslim wear one as a fashion accessory 

General thought not directed at anyone particular 
I do wonder how many people have actually spoken to women that wear Burka's and Niqab...sat down and had a conversation and asked questions about their faith and dress choice.
I have a couple of practicing Muslim friends and although they confirmed that oppression does happen in their faith (across the world) they also opened my eyes when it came to what they wear and why they choose to wear what they do!

I think sometimes we become so caught up with the bad side of things that we dismiss or forget the good side 
Thankfully, the Muslims that I know do not feel oppressed by the men in their lives...they wear makeup to make themselves feel good, just like the rest of us 

I shall bow out now because I can't really add any more and I certainly don't agree that most women in the western world don't have a choice.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

StormyThai said:


> General thought not directed at anyone particular
> I do wonder how many people have actually spoken to women that wear Burka's and Niqab...sat down and had a conversation and asked questions about their faith and dress choice.
> I have a couple of practicing Muslim friends and although they confirmed that oppression does happen in their faith (across the world) they also opened my eyes when it came to what they wear and why they choose to wear what they do!


It's not the ones that are free to speak that I worry about , it's the ones that don't have that freedom.
Its sad that people are closing their eyes to this .


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

But it's not just about why women wear them (choice, co-ersion ..... ) but also are they acceptable forms of clothing in our society? How can people truly be part of it if they are isolated in such a way that no-one can look at them at all, no smiles to show a greeting, no frown to show they are struggling a bit, ..... how would anyone know how they are as well as who they are?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-islamic-nor-socially-acceptable-1743375.html


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> It's not the ones that are free to speak that I worry about , it's the ones that don't have that freedom.
> Its sad that people are closing their eyes to this .


I don't think anyone is closing their eyes to it, just acknowledging that it's not as simple a situation as many calling for a ban would like to think.



Cleo38 said:


> But it's not just about why women wear them (choice, co-ersion ..... ) but also are they acceptable forms of clothing in our society. How can people truly be prat of it if they are isolated in such a way that no-one can look at them at all, no smiles to show a greeting, no frown to show they are struggling a bit, ..... how would anyone know how they are as well as who they are?


Well, you could just ask. Like visually impaired people have to do all the time


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

There are also lots of reasons why faces are so important for us, our brains are developed to


Jesthar said:


> I don't think anyone is closing their eyes to it, just acknowledging that it's not as simple a situation as many calling for a ban would like to think.
> 
> Well, you could just ask. Like visually impaired people have to do all the time


I don't think it's the same at all .... a burqua is almost a barrier. I doubt many people would even approach a woman in a burqua tbh.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> There are also lots of reasons why faces are so important for us, our brains are developed to
> 
> I don't think it's the same at all .... a burqua is almost a barrier. *I doubt many people would even approach a woman in a burqua tbh.*


Perhaps, but that is their problem, not hers. I would happily talk to her. I might learn something


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> But it's not just about why women wear them (choice, co-ersion ..... ) but also are they acceptable forms of clothing in our society? How can people truly be part of it if they are isolated in such a way that no-one can look at them at all, no smiles to show a greeting, no frown to show they are struggling a bit, ..... how would anyone know how they are as well as who they are?
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...-islamic-nor-socially-acceptable-1743375.html


We have more women moving here who wear the burka . It would be very difficult for me to engage in conversation with them ,apart from hello, as I'm hearing impaired and need to see peoples' faces.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> We have more women moving here who wear the burka . It would be very difficult for me to engage in conversation with them ,apart from hello, as I'm hearing impaired and need to see peoples' faces.


Wow that's another wrinkle I hadn't though about! My dad doesn't hear well and really relies on facial expressions and needs to be facing the person speaking. Granted, he could wear his hearing aid, but he doesn't like to. But yeah, hadn't even thought about that!


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> We have more women moving here who wear the burka . It would be very difficult for me to engage in conversation with them ,apart from hello, as I'm hearing impaired and need to see peoples' faces.


Just for the sake of clarity, are we really talking about the burka here, or just the niqab?


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> Just for the sake of clarity, are we really talking about the burka here, or just the niqab?


Sorry I meant any veil that covers the bottom half of the face.

ETA my neighbour wears this but not pink ! so generally can chat pretty well with her .


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Just for the sake of clarity, are we really talking about the burka here, or just the niqab?


 For me it would be the niquab & burqua ... anything that conceals a face.

Facial communication is so important that I honestly can't see how these items can be part of a society .... & how isolating they can be for a woman.



kimthecat said:


> We have more women moving here who wear the burka . It would be very difficult for me to engage in conversation with them ,apart from hello, as I'm hearing impaired and need to see peoples' faces.


Yes, me too ..... although not very badly but enough to warrant needing a hearing aid


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

]


StormyThai said:


> Although I know they don't "have" to wear the Burka...I have yet to see a non Muslim wear one as a fashion accessory
> 
> General thought not directed at anyone particular
> I do wonder how many people have actually spoken to women that wear Burka's and Niqab...sat down and had a conversation and asked questions about their faith and dress choice.
> ...


I don't see all Muslim women as victims or oppressed by men at all, same as I wouldn't assume with any woman. I've spoken to many of their choice of head wear as I find people's religions interesting (despite being an atheist myself). I have visited churches, mosques & temples here to see what they have been like & although I wasn't 'converted' it was fascinating

Still doesn't mean I find burquas acceptable or necessary tho


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

There are some (predominantly) Muslim countries which have banned the burqa for security reasons.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

I wonder how long the Conservative Party investigation is going to take?
He hasn't ,according to the Police , committed an offence so can't be charged. I bet May wishes she could sack him . The latest news about him is his trip to Afghanistan cost £20.000 . He only went there to avoid the vote on the third runway and avoid getting sacked for voting against it .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45201308


----------



## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

I think Boris is an idiot, even though I do agree with him that it does look like a letterbox. 

Whilst I don't particularly like the Niqab/Burka I don't agree that it should be banned.

What about the women who are oppressed and forced to wear it?. People who seem to care so much about these women being oppressed and forced to wear it and want it banned don't seem to realise that if it's banned then the women who are forced into it will just become even more isolated and probably wouldn't even be allowed to leave their houses. Doesn't sound like a very good solution to me.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

@Royoyo Good point. I don't think banning them is the answer. However I'm not sure about public figures wearing Niqab/Burkas such as teachers or doctors or local council staff. I personally wouldn't like this. With personal dealings , I would want the reassurance of seeing someone's face , for that emotional connection , Does that make sense ?


----------



## Royoyo (Feb 21, 2013)

kimthecat said:


> @Royoyo Good point. I don't think banning them is the answer. However I'm not sure about public figures wearing Niqab/Burkas such as teachers or doctors or local council staff. I personally wouldn't like this. With personal dealings , I would want the reassurance of seeing someone's face , for that emotional connection , Does that make sense ?


That does make sense because I also feel the same. I don't really know what the solution is but like you I don't think banning them is the way forward.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> @Royoyo Good point. I don't think banning them is the answer. However I'm not sure about public figures wearing Niqab/Burkas such as teachers or doctors or local council staff. I personally wouldn't like this. With personal dealings , I would want the reassurance of seeing someone's face , for that emotional connection , Does that make sense ?


I agree, whilst I don't think they should be banned as such I do think that it is unreasonable to be able to wear them in certain places (for security) or in certain professions (teaching, nursing, etc).

I couldn't give a stuff what people wear usually but if I had a work collegue who wore either of these items (niqab or burqua) then I would feel uncomfortable & I do not think that is unreasonable.

We are hardwired to look at faces, there are areas in our brains specifically designed for facial recognition & it's a massive part of our communication with each other so it is important for us to be able to look at each other.


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

QUOTE, "Sacremist:

Bathing is a *relatively new* phenomenon; it wasn't common practice *in centuries past.*
________________________
.

hmm - Classic Greece or the Roman Empire, is that far-enuf back for ya? 

What about Judaic ritual bathing, strict "cleansing" post-menses for Jewish women, & men's baths?
And the 5x daily wash B4 prayers of orthodox Muslims?
And the bathing, shampoo, & saunas/ steam baths of many cultures, from Native American to Scandinavian tribes?
The tribes of Mexico used "soap plant" to bathe & shampoo; the native ppls of Central & S America are practically amphibious, they spend so much time bathing.

Let's face it, the native ppls of Western EUROPE are latecomers to bathing, & aside from the aristocratic wealthy, the working popn & the poor, who were the vast majority, universally stank ... clear into the 1600s.
In Medieval Europe, it was commonly believed that bathIng more than once or twice a year courted death. Lice, human fleas, dirt lines on skin, & sweat-crusted clothing were all commonplace. :Hungover

Most of the world outside of Western Europe, at least those not living in desert regions, practiced bathing regularly at a time when European commoners had to be bound & gagged, to get them into a tub. // The marked exceptions were the Bushmen of the Kalamahari, & the Aboriginal ppls of Oz, who live in extremely dry places, & IIANM, they traditionally dust-bathed to get sweat off, rather than waste drinkable, scarce, very precious water.

I'm not sure why, but the Early Christian church often confounded filthy body with holiness; many hermits & saints were regarded as "holy" precisely b/c they did not bathe, as in "ever", which I don't get at all.  Exactly why being bodily filthy was a sign of a sainted person was never explained to me.
Being walled up in a cell attached to the church wall & fed by delivery was one such, & I will personally bet that the KEEPERs of the hermits were the ones who balked at carrying water for bathing, in addition to their necessary duties of delivering water to drink, food to eat, & removing urine /' feces in a bucket, all thru the same hole in the cell wall.

Most of humanity, even hunter-gatherers, *did* bathe. Early pastoral ppls in the now-desert southwestern U-S had steam baths, channeled water for crops & bathing / washing, & native soap-producing plants. So did the ppl who chipped out the stone city, into the cliffs, at the heart of the Middle Eastern desert; they had running water citywide, fountains, plunge pools, a public garden irrigated by channels, & multiple baths, public & private. They had a sophisticated rain-capturing reservoir system & carved channels into walls to direct water-flow, using gravity.

European ppls were just slobs, LOL. :Hilarious "Primitive" ppls were cleaner.
- terry

.


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> QUOTE, "Sacremist:
> 
> Bathing is a *relatively new* phenomenon; it wasn't common practice *in centuries past.*
> ________________________
> ...


 I did say it wasn't common but I didn't mean totally non-existent and I was primarily referring to white Europeans.


----------



## foxiesummer (Feb 4, 2009)

Jesthar said:


> Just for the sake of clarity, are we really talking about the burka here, or just the niqab?


To punish a woman she can be forced to wear a yellow burka, yellow is considered unlucky.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

foxiesummer said:


> To punish a woman she can be forced to wear a yellow burka, yellow is considered unlucky.


Really?! OMG, I just thought of big bird .... does that make me like Boris??!


----------



## Sacrechat (Feb 27, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Really?! OMG, I just thought of big bird .... does that make me like Boris??!


You racist you! Lol! :Hilarious


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

:Hilarious Separated at birth ?


----------



## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

*News Thump*

*Friday 17 August 2018 by Lucas Wilde*

*Schrodinger's Burkha represses women while also making empowering them to be a volatile security risk*









*The burkha represses women but also increases the likelihood of them posing a risk to security, somehow, according to reports this morning.*

Allegedly intelligent people have argued that the burkha is intended to keep women downtrodden, to keep them quiet and passive, to keep them from misbehaving in the presence of their male masters.

The same people are also arguing that the same burkha that keeps women passively 'in line' also increases the odds that someone wearing one will commit a crime.

"It's a sign they are being repressed, which means we should definitely be afraid of them," confirmed allegedly intelligent person, Simon Williams.

"If I know one thing about bank robbers - and I don't by the way - it's that they are typically mousey and shy after decades of Muslim male oppression.

"We must ban the burkha to allow these women to think for themselves, to allow them to feel brave and courageous, to allow them the kind of independent, out-of-the-box thinking typical of someone who would come up with an ingenious plan…to…rob…rob a bank…

"…wait a minute…"

Meanwhile, others have suggested the only way to fight against women being _told_ what to wear, is to fight against what women are _allowed_ to wear.

Man Chester Matthews told us, "I find it disgusting that in some cultures a man can tell a woman what they have to wear. It's abhorrent.

"They should come and live here, in an open society like ours, where men are currently are currently obsessed with telling women what they aren't allowed to wear.

"It's very different. Shut up, yes it is."


----------

