# Breeders who don't KC register



## Peter Caulfield (Jun 30, 2015)

I'm looking for a Golden R puppy and have set a budget of £650.
I have been told that genuine breeders will always KC register the litter but dodgy breeders won't, even when they claim the Sire and dam are pedigrees. 

I'm wondering if this is true. One comment made was, "No breeder in their right mind would sell a pup for £650 when a simple registration means they can ask up to £800-£900 per pup."

Can anyone offer any advice or give me some reasons why pups from pedigree parents wouldn't be registered?


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## SingingWhippet (Feb 25, 2015)

Peter Caulfield said:


> Can anyone offer any advice or give me some reasons why pups from pedigree parents wouldn't be registered?


Either parent may be endorsed, meaning that until the endorsement is lifted by their breeder their progeny cannot be registered.

The dam may be too young, too old or have already had more litters than the KC will register. A litter can't be registered if the bitch was under 1 year old at the time of mating or over 8 years old at the time of whelping. A bitch can also only have 4 litters registered in total.

Not so much an issue with GRs but the KC has cracked down on the registration of merle puppies in certain breeds where it hasn't historically been present. In breeds where this is the case (chihuahuas and bulldogs are two that instantly spring to mind) merle puppies can't be registered and nor can any puppies where either of the parents were merle.

It would be an immediate red flag to me if both sire and dam were KC registered but the puppies weren't.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Peter Caulfield said:


> Can anyone offer any advice or give me some reasons why pups from pedigree parents wouldn't be registered?



*One or both parents are not KC registered.*
*One or both parents are KC registered but have Endorsed pedigrees (meaning their offspring cannot be registered).*
*Both parents are KC registered, but one or both have not been transferred into the current owner/s name.*
*The bitch is too old, or too young.*
*The bitch has already had the maximum number of litters that the KC will register in her lifetime.*
*The bitch has had a litter less than a year before this one.*
There may be other reasons which haven't come to mind immediately.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Peter Caulfield said:


> I'm looking for a Golden R puppy and have set a budget of £650.
> I have been told that genuine breeders will always KC register the litter but dodgy breeders won't, even when they claim the Sire and dam are pedigrees.
> 
> I'm wondering if this is true. One comment made was, "No breeder in their right mind would sell a pup for £650 when a simple registration means they can ask up to £800-£900 per pup."
> ...


A dog can be a pedigree dog but not KC registered, the two are not the same thing at all.

A reputable breeder will register their pups as generally they are breeding not just to make money but to improve the breed, have their affix in the show ring or competition arena and gain a reputation of producing sound, healthy stock that meets the breed standard and is capable of performing well in the relevant arena.

Prices vary amongst reputable and less reputable breeders and you can pick up a quality Golden Retriever for far less than £900!

Costs are more down to stud fees, hip, elbow, eye and other health tests which all breeding stock must have etc

Reputable breeders will conduct the recommended and required health tests for their breed.

The best place to start looking for a pup is the relevant breed club(s) whose members must often abide by a code of practice stricter than that of the kennel club.

You will also have to make sure which type you prefer, the working or pet/show type.


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## lemmsy (May 12, 2008)

I can think of circumstances for certain breeds, i.e. Border Collies who are registered with the ISDS (International Sheepdog Society) rather than the KC (dual registered litters do come up).

I'm not mightly knowledgeable on Goldie lines etc, but it could be the case that the breeder is an ethical breeder but has issues with the KC. It's a possibility.

I know of two KC reg goldies who have health issues, which ought to have been tested for, and weren't but the pups in the litter were still registered by the KC. After digging, one owner discovered that her dog's dam had an genetic eye condition which should have excluded her from being bred from again. She was anyway and registration of the litter accepted. The owners of said dogs will not be looking for KC registration as a guarantee of healthy, ethically bred dogs in the future.

I'm not bashing the KC totally. I know there are some beautifully bred, healthy litters registered with them.
Just thinking out loud; just one reason that an otherwise well bred litter from a responsible conscientious breeder might not be registered. Could you ask the breeder right out?


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## Peter Caulfield (Jun 30, 2015)

Thanks for your input, folks. We have found a litter where they have 5th generation pedigree but the litter is not kc registered. Can you explain what this means?


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

Peter Caulfield said:


> Thanks for your input, folks. We have found a litter where they have 5th generation pedigree but the litter is not kc registered. Can you explain what this means?


Ask why not. And if the others on the pedigree were... Another thing the KC does is to validate ancestry over the generations and provide a provable record. So you could be given a 5-gen pedigree, but have no idea if the names were all made up (it does happen!). If they were all KC reg then you can check to see if it's genuine.

Also if they were all KC reg.... then see my post above as to why this litter isn't registered.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Peter Caulfield said:


> Thanks for your input, folks. We have found a litter where they have 5th generation pedigree but the litter is not kc registered. Can you explain what this means?


 A pedigree is just a family tree, anyone can make one up and in the past people have "stolen" the dogs of others to put into their own hand written pedigrees.

If the litter is not KC registered I would walk away, the world is not short of Golden Retrievers, nor of reputable breeders of them, you have a huge selection to pick from.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Can you save up a little more for your Golden? £650 is a good amount, but perhaps a hundred or so more will take you into those breeders who have health tested and KC registered dogs. I think your current amount is bringing up people who are not quite kosher.

Where abouts are you looking? Have you checked out the breed club, Champdogs website or the KC puppy listings? I bought my latest Golden from a breeder off the KC website who is an Assured Breeder (ABS) although I haunted the Champdogs GR puppy listing. She is my fourth Golden and I have had a variety of different dogs from good and the not so good breeders, I now know what to look for. The first thing that I look for are health testing and KC registration, I can check that the dogs on the KC website and check that the health tests have been done by looking up the sire and dams name. When I have narrowed down some breeders, I contact them by email usually and tell them a bit about ourselves and why we are looking for a puppy and so on, then we visit. What I am looking for at the visit is that the mother of the puppies is there and is obviously the mother, the temperament of the mother, how the puppies look - well cared for, relatively clean, bright eyed and lively, bedding not looking foul and not cleaned regularly. It takes a bit of a six sence tbh, but do be prepared to walk away if something tells you all is not ok.
I can't impress enough on you that your golden puppy must come from health tested parents (health checked which is often pushed in adverts, only means the vet has seen the puppies). Those health tests, with good results on the hips, elbow and eyes, will mean that you pup is more likely to have a long and healthy life, but also temperment is very important. My last golden came from a breeder who wasn't breeding for a good temperment and she was not good with strangers or other dogs. My current dogs is very good natured and the total opposite, but I had a good idea she was likely to be that way when I met all the breeders other dogs who are closely related to my dog, grandparents aunts and uncles etc.
Take your time, don't rush into this, your dog could be with you for next 14 years as both my last two were. It's very easy to be seduced into buying a puppy when you see a litter of them all cute and fluffy, be brave and be prepared to walk away if you are not sure.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Peter Caulfield said:


> Thanks for your input, folks. We have found a litter where they have 5th generation pedigree but the litter is not kc registered. Can you explain what this means?


Pedigree could be totally made up. Not saying it is but ............

Have either parents had health tests?

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/health.aspx?id=2047


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## Catharinem (Dec 17, 2014)

Ask to see kc reg no of the bitch - I think with that you can search for her on the kc website and see what info they hold on her. Pedigree is just the family tree and is made from the pedigrees of mum and dad - when a bitch has a litter her puppy becomes the most recent entry in the pedigree and the last line of her own pedigree "falls off the end" of the puppy's pedigree. It is usually 3 or 5 generations provided as standard. However, a pedigree dog or bitch may not be suitable for breeding - so they will be kc reg, but their offspring can't be - for the above reasons, and I think no one has mentioned another reason which is I think a 3rd litter can't be registered if the bitch has had 2 caesareans already - not usually Goldens though. Just a thought, if your budget is a bit low, have you considered a young dog that hasn't quite made the grade as a Guide dog or other assistance dog? A lot of the basic training has been done already, along with health tested breeding and socialisation, but you wouldn't quite trust it enough to close your eyes and cross the road. Mostly Labradors, but a few Goldies as well.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

The waiting list for ex or failed GDBA is very long and now some go on to be assistance dogs too............... Rescue is full of GRs


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

Catharinem said:


> Ask to see kc reg no of the bitch - I think with that you can search for her on the kc website and see what info they hold on her. Pedigree is just the family tree and is made from the pedigrees of mum and dad - when a bitch has a litter her puppy becomes the most recent entry in the pedigree and the last line of her own pedigree "falls off the end" of the puppy's pedigree. It is usually 3 or 5 generations provided as standard. However, a pedigree dog or bitch may not be suitable for breeding - so they will be kc reg, but their offspring can't be - for the above reasons, and I think no one has mentioned another reason which is I think a 3rd litter can't be registered if the bitch has had 2 caesareans already - not usually Goldens though. Just a thought, if your budget is a bit low, have you considered a young dog that hasn't quite made the grade as a Guide dog or other assistance dog? A lot of the basic training has been done already, along with health tested breeding and socialisation, but you wouldn't quite trust it enough to close your eyes and cross the road. Mostly Labradors, but a few Goldies as well.


 You don't need the kc reg number all they would need is the dog kc name to find the dog, her pedigree and her prodigy health test etc on MyKC.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Meezey said:


> You don't need the kc reg number all they would need is the dog kc name to find the dog, her pedigree and her prodigy health test etc on MyKC.


Not all progeny will be a prodigy however.......................


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Not all progeny will be a prodigy however.......................


God damn autocorrect lol


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

Peter Caulfield said:


> I'm looking for a Golden R puppy and have set a budget of £650.
> I have been told that genuine breeders will always KC register the litter but dodgy breeders won't, even when they claim the Sire and dam are pedigrees.
> 
> I'm wondering if this is true. One comment made was, "No breeder in their right mind would sell a pup for £650 when a simple registration means they can ask up to £800-£900 per pup."
> ...


Even KC registration isn't a guarantee you have a good breeder unfortuanately. The main criteria is that both parents need to be registered with the Kennel club to register any litters of puppies produced, which means even iffy breeders like puppy farms can register the pups.A lot of good breeders will put on a pups registration documents progeny not eligible for registration, which means that a person buying that pup who may breed from it later cant register any resulting puppies that the dog produces, unless the breeder who bred the original dog lifts the exemption. There are other reasons why pups cant be registered with the kennel club
these include things like, if the dam has already had four litters, if the dam is 8 years of age when the pups were born, the dam is too young ie under 1 year old when mating took place, if the pups are from a close mating, mother to son, brother to sister, father to daughter. Also if the dam has already had two caesareans instead of natural births already. So the reasons why a litter of pups may not be registered can vary considerably.

A good breeder will carry out all the available relevant health tests on the dam and sire too prior to breeding, this isn't just the normal pop them along to the vets health check but specific tests to check from known health problems in the breed.

The health tests available for golden retrievers are below, breeders should have certificates too to show results.

Eye disease: Retinal dysplasia; Hereditary cataract; Progressive retinal atrophy (PRA) (both parents clear of these); Primary glaucoma

Hip Dysplasia (malformation of the hip joints causing pain and disability): breed mean score 14.1 (parents should be lower) Is a serious problem for the breed and ideally the score should be much lower than the breed mean score.

Elbow dysplasia (malformation of the elbow joint causing pain and disability: (swollen, painful elbows and lameness) Score of parents should ideally be 0:0 or as low as possible. A common problem for this breed.

*DNA tests available*

Progressive retinal atrophy (GR PRA2) and (GR PRA1) (ultimately causes blindness)
Muscular dystrophy (muscle wasting) _(may be more relevant to US dogs)_
Degenerative myelopathy (CDRM) (degenerative disease of the spinal cord, causing hindquarter weakness, loss of feeling and paralysis)
Ichthyosis (ICT-A) (skin condition where cracks appear especially over the elbow and hocks, risking infection)
More info on full link.
http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/golden-retriever/

These tests obviously cost, so does kennel club registration but its minimal to what the tests can cost a breeder, it also costs a lot to raise a litter of pups properly and look after mum in pregnancy, so there is a reason why you can buy pups cheaper and why some are more expensive.

Breed clubs are often a good source of further information in your research and often also give advice about sourcing a well reared healthy pup.

http://www.thegoldenretrieverclub.co.uk/

http://www.goldenretrievers.co.uk/

http://www.southerngoldenretriever.com/

There are more regional breed clubs the above isn't all of them, if there are no links to the others on the above, you can google golden retriever breed clubs UK and the others will come up.

The dogs trust also gives good general advice on what to look for in a breeder, what questions to ask, and what should make you suspicious and run a mile.

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-advice/advice-for-owners/buying-a-dog/buying-a-dog


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Not sure where you are or what your circumstances but have a look here

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Happy-Paws-Puppy-Rescue/620938931338715



smokeybear said:


> Rescue is full of GRs


What rescues are full of GRs?
When my friend was looking there wasn't a Golden in the whole South East


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## Peter Caulfield (Jun 30, 2015)

Thanks for your replies. I think I've got a handle on it now. I appreciate your responses


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## adamantis (Mar 14, 2014)

MerlinsMum said:


> *The bitch has had a litter less than a year before this one.*
> There may be other reasons which haven't come to mind immediately.


They got rid of this rule… Something to do with repeated "accidental" matings and the KC being a bunch of money grabbing so-and-sos who couldn't be bothered to argue the point...


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

From the KC Website

*Are there any restrictions that would prevent me from registering my pedigree puppies?*

*Yes if any of the following apply:*


The dam has already whelped 4 litters (as of the 1st January 2012 the limit changed from 6 litters to 4 litters). As of this date the Kennel Club will no longer register any further litters from any bitch which our records show has already whelped 4 litters. Therefore for any litter born on or after the 1st January 2012, the system will automatically check to see how many previous litters the Kennel Club has an account of. Where the number previously recorded is 4 or more, the application will be rejected, or


The dam has already reached the age of 8 years at the date of whelping, (relief from this restriction may be considered normally provided an application is made prior to the mating, the proposed dam has previously whelped at least one other registered litter, and the application is supported by veterinary evidence as to the suitability of the bitch involved in the proposed whelping), or


The dam was under one year old at the time of mating, or


The offspring are the result of any mating between father and daughter, mother and son or brother and sister, save in exceptional circumstances or for scientifically proven welfare reasons, or


The dam has already had two litters delivered by caesarean section, save for scientifically proven welfare reasons and this only normally provided the application is made prior to the mating, or


The dam was not resident at a UK address at the date of whelping.


If either the dam or sire are endorsed with progeny not eligible for registration (i.e. that there is a restriction on file at the Kennel Club that prevents any puppies from being registered). Please refer to your owner certificate if you are unsure, the endorsement will be clearly displayed.

There are further Kennel Club Rules and Regulations that may prevent a litter from being registered; the full Kennel Club Rules and Regulations are contained in the Kennel Club Year Book.


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## E.Lab.Lover (Jul 21, 2015)

We recently bought a Labrador pup. And it took me a long time to find a breeder I was happy with.
Many just wanted them gone asap. 
One I asked why they were kc registering and it was because they wanted the pups just to be family pets and not breed from! I then asked what parents hip/elbow and eye scores were , her response was they are good down the lines. 
So red flag there and I carried on with my search.

My advise would be don't just go for a cheaper pup you may find it's cheaper for a reason and have huge vet bills and a pup/dog that is in pain.


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