# Sticky  My Raw Feeding - The Complete Experience (with pictures)



## anotheruser

*INTRODUCTION:*
There are a number of different recipes, methods and ideas around raw food feeding. Some recipes don't use grinders, others do. Some don't use supplements, others promote them. This is the method I follow and as time goes on, my recipe changes depending on what research *I* do - that doesn't mean believing the first thing I read on the internet about it!

The basic common flow through all the recipes I have seen is still 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% offal. If you get this right, you're doing fine  Most recipes make sure 5% of the offal is liver. Only *you* can make your mind up what you want to feed your kitties. In the wild cats won't get exact ratios right of anything. Many times my butcher doesn't weigh the meats to the gram but so long as it's pretty much 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other offal then it's good enough for me.

Every improvement I make, I'll update this thread and add info to the change log found in post 2.

*BACKGROUND:*
I have two cats. Luckily they will eat pretty much any type of food I give them so I didn't think home made raw would be a challenge. I have fed commercial raw, which was fine.

With tinned food, I usually feed about 200g per day per cat, which works out well as most tins are around 400g. However as raw food is much better, they don't need as much so it's about 130g. Some cats will eat more than this, others less but don't be afraid if coming from commercial pouches or tinned food how small the portion looks; it's got a lot more goodness in it.

*NON-FOOD ITEMS:
Grinder:* The initial ~£65 for a grinder is fairly expensive let's face it. However if you really want to go full in with raw feeding, then it'll save you money in the long run. Plus, if you decide to no longer grind anything (my eventual plan), then you'll be able to re-sell the grinder at a good price and re-coup most of your money. Just remember to keep the box and all attachments.
I purchased an Andrew James Premium Grinder. Check other websites (such as eBay) as it may be cheaper, particularly with regard to postage costs. Other members have a Kenwood MG510, which does look sexier in the kitchen.

_*IMPORTANT:*_ After cleaning I found the grinding disc/plate had rusted slightly so I emailled to ask for replacements. The company told me to call, then I was told to email with pictures, no response, called again, told to email (again)... In the end I sent a message through ebay who then gave me another number to call. Finally they arranged a return for the whole grinder and after three further weeks, I was finally refunded. There are also questions regarding AJ and their ethical stance. Here's a post describing the price fluctuations since the horse meat scandal of 2013. In a nut shell, it went from around £80 to £400 within a couple of weeks. However the going rate can be anything from £60 to £99 - anything outside of this and you've got a bargain or been had. The Kenwood grinder on the other hand seems to keep a steady price.

*Other Grinding Thoughts:* After grinding the chicken wings for the past few years, I would recommend it, especially for a beginner. However I have now begun to ask my butcher to simply bash the chicken wings up. This means I am grinding nothing. Sometimes the kitties eat them, other times they will leave it to come back to during the day. I always remove any leftovers before the next meal.

*Bowls:* Have a number of bowls ready. I bought some cheap Asda Smart Price bowls, which are great for preparing the food. Obviously the number of bowls depends on the quantity and different flavours of food you make.

*Whisk:* While not really needed (a common fork has been used for decades), these Nova Whisks make whisking really quick, easy and fun.

*RECIPES:*
Here is a list of recipes found around the internet. Take a look at each one and decide which you want to follow.
Cat Nutrition | Cat Info | Feline Nutrition | Pet Forums - Hobbs' | Facebook CCRAP.

I use a slightly altered version from the Cat RaP facebook group. An active user of the group has asked some interesting questions regarding another recipe I used and in my quest for simplification, it all made sense. Check the Files from that group for the original spreadsheet of ingredients, which also includes costings.

*INGREDIENTS:*


Code:


1.5kg - Flavour meat (Beef, chicken, rabbit, venison, lamb, turkey, pheasant)
880g - Heart
500g - Chicken wings
220g - Kidney
220g - Liver
2 tins - Sardines
9 - Medium eggs









_Meats from the supermarket._

*Chicken Wings:* I estimate chicken wings are 50% bone, 50% meat, so have adjusted the flavour meat to reflect this.

*Sardines:* Most come in a tomato sauce, which can be washed off. Others come in oil, which isn't healthy for the kitties at all and avoid brine as this contains a lot of salt. Some premium brands come in spring water, which is preferable but pushes the price up.

*Eggs:* There is no evidence either way on whether the albumen (the clear/white part of the egg) is good or bad for cats. I use both parts but if you're using yolks only, you may want to add a little water to the mix.

*Heart:* Morrisons' heart comes chopped up in chunk pieces, so if purchasing from here, you can add it just as it is.

_*NOTE:* Asda smart price chicken wings come in 1kg packs. As only half is required per one batch, you could look at purchasing a second flavour of meat and make two flavours at a time. Remember to double up everything else too!_

*SUPPLEMENTS:*
Here's a quote from the Cat RaP facebook group:

_"Either grinding, or freezing, or both will degrade taurine levels but it is only minor. It is only really an issue with low taurine meats like rabbit or chicken breast, most other meats including the rest of a chicken has enough that the slight degradation will not take it below the minimum requirements.

The idea that you need to add vitamins, minerals and amino acids is a throwback from commercial pet foods where the heat treatment destroys them and so they HAVE to be added at the end. This has led people to think they must be added to raw and the myth propagates through the raw feeding community and somehow elevates to a fact.

Adding extra taurine is not a problem, but adding some vitamins, fat based like E and A could result in an overdose"_

I can see the logic in that so have dropped them all together. Further reading: Vitamin A overdose.

*METHOD:*
Get all the containers, bowls, grinders and knives ready. You don't want to leave the meat hanging around while you find containers to put the mix in. Also make sure you have room in the freezer!

_*NOTE:* You can either slice, dice, chop or grind. Whenever you see the grinder being mentioned; there is no reason you can't chop that item up instead._

*1:* Whisk the eggs in one of the bowls. If adding taurine, do this now to mix it in nicely.

*2:* Add the "flavour" meat in chunks to the eggs. Chunks allow the kitties to chew, thus strengthening their jaws.

*3:* Get those chicken wings through the grinder and add them to the bowl.








_Ground chicken wings._

*4:* Wash the sardines in a bowl of cold water. Then chop them or grind them and add to the mix. This is when things start to get a little smelly!








_Washed sardines._

*5:* Next add the heart to the bowl. Any blood "juice" can be added to the bowl directly.








_Meats prior to mixing._

*6:* Slice, dice, chop or grind the rest of the offal and add those to the bowl and mix well!








_Meats after mixing._

_*NOTE:* Half fill a bowl with warm water to rinse your hands._

_*NOTE:* I put each ingredient through the grinder, then just split the ground result between the different flavours I made._

_*NOTE:* Wash, dry and coat the grinding disc/plate part of the machine in cooking oil. If you don't coat the plate, it will go rusty._

*TUBBING UP:*
Grab a ladle and fill those empty takeaway containers. 99p stores also have great tubs.








_Ready to be frozen | Weighing | Close up_

Around 520g fits in one container which should feed my kitties for around two days. Once in tubs they sat in my freezer section for cat food quite nicely.








_Packaged in the freezer_

*COST & WEIGHT - DETAILS:*
As you don't _have_ to grind anything, getting started is relatively easy. All items can be bought at major supermarkets, but it would be worth taking a trip to your local butchers. The latter means you can ask for the weight you need, which is especially useful for the offal.

*Supermarket*:
£10.71 - Chicken
£1.21 - Chicken wings
£2.93 - Heart
£0.74 - Kidney
£0.38 - Liver
£0.68 - Sardines
£0.99 - Eggs

TOTAL: £17.64
Per day per cat cost: £1.10

*Butchers*:
£10.71 - Chicken _(supermarket)_
£1.21 - Chicken wings _(supermarket)_
£2.90 - Heart
£1.20 - Kidney
£0.61 - Liver
£0.68 - Sardines _(supermarket)_
£0.99 - Eggs _(supermarket)_

TOTAL: £19.30
Per day per cat cost: £1.20

*Weight/Percentages:*
1500g (flavour meat) + 880g (heart) + 250g (meat from chicken wings)
= 2630g / 79.2%

220g (liver) + 220g (kidney)
= 440g / 13.2% (offal)

250g (bone)
= 250g / 7.5%

As you can see, the weights I use are slightly out from the 80/10/10 guide. However in reality, the amount of chicken breast I use is 1650g as it's sold in 550g packs. The bone is also an estimate. Nobody will every get it exactly right but it's good to keep an eye on when changing things.

You will also note I don't count the fish or eggs as part of the 80/10/10. The weights are nominal and they are present for their nutritional value more than anything else.

*CLOSING WORDS:*
Is it worth it? Yes I think so. The grinder can be used if I want to make some nice mince or burgers from a "proper" piece of meat and because I am selecting the flavours and meats then I _know_ what is going into the kitties' food.

If there are any further questions, I'd be happy to answer them 

A big shout out to _Cookieandme_ and _Paddypaws_ for guidance, and the many other raw feeders who inspired me to get started


----------



## anotheruser

CHANGE LOG:


Code:


04.05.2016: Added thoughts on grinding.

18.01.2015: Added new pictures.

15.01.2015: Re-written to reflect changes.
15.01.2015: Changed recipe.

23.12.2013: General tidy of post wording.
23.12.2013: Added new pictures, deleted old ones.

22.10.2013: Added supermarkets vs. butchers to cost comparison.

11.09.2013: Added taurine to ingredients.
11.09.2013: Tidied up wording / refreshed.

04.06.2013: Refresh of post
04.06.2013: Complete re-write of the "method" section.
04.06.2013: Deleted some pictures to make new method less confusing.
04.06.2013: Added links to other recipes.
04.06.2013: Added cost comparison - still to work on.

22.04.2013: Tidied up the wording.
22.04.2013: Deleted the list of meats I purchased.
22.04.2013: Added the ingredients to this post.

08.04.2013: Kenwood DOES have a reverse function.
08.04.2013: Added AJ grinder ethical opinion.

29.01.2013: Added hand blender suggestion.
29.01.2013: Added experiences with Andrew James customer service, a warning.

17.12.2012: Added note - grinding and "chunked" meat.
17.12.2012: Added shout-outs.

14.12.2012: Initial Post


----------



## labydird

Wow that is great, love the pics to go with the process, glad the mincer worked well for you!

My cats won't eat mince (raw or bought!) so I spent yesterday making up a new batch, chopping all the meat up!

Here was the price of the items I bought:

Mixed mutton, some with bones which I removed: 1.5kg = £9.00
3 joint chicken wings (so tips too and skin) 1kg = £2.24
Ox Liver 100g = £0.24p
Lambs Kidneys 150g = £0.58p
Chicken Gizzards 150g = £0.41p
Lamb hearts 250g = £0.69p

Total £13.07

This makes enough for my 2 cats for at least 2 weeks can stretch to 3 as I still give some wet bought food alongside it.

Eggshell powder cost nothing as I make it at home myself! I still have to buy the Vit E and seaweed powder.

The salmon/fish I don't mix in but just give a portion weekly.

I chop it all up into quite generous chunks (initially were very small chunks, now they happilly hack through an inch wing with bone!) I sometimes mix it all up or make a majority chicken flavour or lamb flavour.

I usually buy lamb which works out around £3 more per kg but tried mutton this time round which they were happy to eat.

I got these small tubs with lids 12 for £1 in poundland which are great as they take 100g of meat in each one.


----------



## labydird

Has anyone tried goat or would recommend? The butchers had this too but I thought best to stick to poultry/ lamb?


----------



## Elizabeth and Bertie

What brilliant posts! Very informative and inspiring! Thanks!


----------



## LucyAnnH

This is lovely - thanks anotheruser, great pics and great to see more people feeding their cats intelligently 

One thing I realised after a lot of research and reading and producing my own dog and cat food is that getting the right amount of bone / taurine / offel can actually be done over time. For example, ensuring their diet is balanced can be achieved by feeding chopped heart in the morning, then a few sprats in the evening, wing the next morning and some kidney and brain the next evening. 

I found it quite tough to keep it up, and a year later and they are all on whole prey. I made the transfer to whole skinned partidge and fish, then whole chicks then rats. 

Great post and super snaps. Hope to see some more soon! x


----------



## kerfuffle

Super post! Looks great and very informative. I too took the plunge, bought a Kenwood MG510 grinder last week (£77, bargain!) and attempted making my own cat food yesterday by grinding an organ-less bone-in rabbit (£3.99), kidney (no idea price, <£1), liver (no idea price, <£1) and lamb hearts (£1, to increase meat content as rabbit has higher bone-to-meat ratio according to catnutrition.org) and adding the supplements (altered accordingly to weight of food produced, as I was only trying it out and didn't want the cats turning up their noses to 3+kg of food!) and more taurine.

My two cats are loving it. It made 1250g of food which will feed them for 5-6 days (based on 2-3% of body weight), so approx 55p/cat/day since you use so little of the supplements it hardly costs anything. If you know somebody in farming industry, you can easily get rabbits for cheap (my ex-neighbour used to go rabbiting and sold them for £1/rabbit).

I've read that grinders make horrifically loud noises that you may need earplugs, but to be honest, it doesn't sound any louder than my food processor or Dyson vacuum cleaner.


----------



## Cookieandme

labydird said:


> Has anyone tried goat or would recommend? The butchers had this too but I thought best to stick to poultry/ lamb?


I have used goat, can be more expensive but great in a chilli and Cookie likes it to


----------



## Paddypaws

Great post and fantastic to see more and more people attempting home made food with such success!
I did feed goat meat a few times in the past when I was just using raw as treat food, but it is a bit pricey now I am feeding 8 totally on raw.
I use the Kenwood grinder and it is still going strong 18 months on, the noise is not enough to put Millie off helping with the preparations (she IS deaf! )








My most recent batches of food have consisted of ground chicken carcasses to which I add the supplements, and then meat/organs chunked up which seems to be a popular format for the cats.


----------



## maui

Great to hear the details on raw feeding. How much supplements per 1kg of food do you use ( taurine, seaweed powder, yeast, calcium)?


----------



## kr00t0n

I've had a go at making my own, but it came out way gloopier than NI minces, and Winston won't touch it


----------



## anotheruser

Thanks for the replies 

If you're still not sure, it really is quite easy. I like cooking and messing about with food anyway so I can only encourage you to give it a go.

Edited a little bit to say you don't _need_ to grind the meat, chopping will do fine, so you can test it out without spending money on a grinder.



maui said:


> Great to hear the details on raw feeding. How much supplements per 1kg of food do you use ( taurine, seaweed powder, yeast, calcium)?


I'm following this recipe. I used (per 1Kg of meat):

4.4g - Seaweed Powder
6g - Brewers Yeast
6 Drops - Vitamin E drops

Not too sure how many salmon capsules I would use per Kg of meat next time though, so will research that and add it to the post in due course 



kr00t0n said:


> I've had a go at making my own, but it came out way gloopier than NI minces, and Winston won't touch it


I used about half the amount of water than the recipe suggested as it started to look soup-like. The mixes are still a lot more watery than NI minces so I am not too concerned with water in-take at the moment.


----------



## Bray

This is really useful thanks anotheruser; I came across the same post you got the recipe from and saw your posts on there. I've had my cat on raw for a week and a half now and he loves it although I wasn't too sure that the recipe was right and therefore asked guidance from the expirenced people from this site. Turns out the recipe is no good 

However I only have a week supply left so will definately be making up this recipe next time. As the bone is only in the chicken wing I'm sure my little man Beau will be able to get his teeth around it as he has already proved to do with the tip of a wing. I'm planning also on following your lead and doing two or three different flavours so he does'nt get stuck on just chicken. Thankyou for the pictures too


----------



## anotheruser

Thought I'd bump this to say I've made a number of changes since the original post as I've developed.


----------



## spid

Brilliant!


----------



## MoggyBaby

I wish I had found this thread a week ago as the Andrew James mincer I bought is now back in the box to be returned to them tomorrow...!!!! 

The rest is very informative - especially for us total beginners who are well scared of getting it all wrong - and I can see me referring back to it on several occasions as I get more used to putting it all together. Thank you for taking the time to type it all up and then to refresh it.


----------



## KathinUK

MoggyBaby said:


> I wish I had found this thread a week ago as the Andrew James mincer I bought is now back in the box to be returned to them tomorrow...!!!!
> 
> The rest is very informative - especially for us total beginners who are well scared of getting it all wrong - and I can see me referring back to it on several occasions as I get more used to putting it all together. Thank you for taking the time to type it all up and then to refresh it.


Pity about your grinder MB ... I bought a Northern Tools one eons ago and it has effortlessly ground its way through *tons* of rabbits, chickens, ducks, pheasant etc etc and remains as good as new. Cost about £80. :devil: :thumbup:

Yes thanx anotheruser 
Kath


----------



## MoggyBaby

KathinUK said:


> Pity about your grinder MB ... I bought a Northern Tools one eons ago and it has effortlessly ground its way through *tons* of rabbits, chickens, ducks, pheasant etc etc and remains as good as new. Cost about £80. :devil: :thumbup:
> 
> Yes thanx anotheruser
> Kath


It wasn't too much trouble in the end.

I returned it on the Wed, had a full refund by the Friday and my new Kenwood also arrived on the Friday so all is well.

The Kenwood - for the sake of a few bob more - is excellent and very solid. I am well pleased with it. :thumbup:


----------



## Lilylass

Hi, just found your thread & well impressed!

I'd love to feed Maisie raw but unfortunately she only seems able to tolerate fish, chicken & turkey so I'd really worry about getting a balance diet for her  BUT .... the cats .... now, that's a different story!

Strongly considering it as both have weight problems (one skin & bone and the other fat ) .....

Now to a grinder - I'm on reduced hours just now (been ill) so funds are tight - do you think something like this would be any good?

Could you do it with a hand grinder?

I can obviously replace with a more heavy duty one in the future if they actually eat what I manage to produce but can't really spend an absolute fortune just to try it out


----------



## anotheruser

I'd say you _may_ be okay on the 1200W grinder but only put one wing through at a time. Also use the largest hole plate and remember to rest it if the grinder sounds funny or is hot.

I tried a hand one but it was rubbish.


----------



## KathinUK

Lilylass said:


> Hi, just found your thread & well impressed!
> ....
> Now to a grinder - I'm on reduced hours just now (been ill) so funds are tight - do you think something like this would be any good?
> 
> Could you do it with a hand grinder?
> 
> I can obviously replace with a more heavy duty one in the future if they actually eat what I manage to produce but can't really spend an absolute fortune just to try it out


Lilylass we used a hand grinder for about a year or so before investing in a superb Northern Tools grinder. It was fine so long as we didn't try mincing turkey bones 

Hand grinders are generally very strong - ours is cast so had to be careful not to drop it .. just in case.:cursing:

Personally I think if money's tight and you want to mince rather than chop then you might be better going for the hand grinder - the other one seems too cheap to me and might well be a disappointment -- and a waste of money to boot.

Wishing you every success with your exciting foray into home made raw :smile5:

Kath


----------



## simon89

Great! Thank you! So by the way - could you guys recomment buying raw food at petsmart? I mean due to these facts on pet food they're the biggest one with the largest market share. But is large = recommendable? I had some bad experiences trusting them.


----------



## Shadow And Lightning

are you still following this recipe?
re the 500g lamb shoulder or breast? does it have to be lamb? mine aren't too keen on lamb tbh lol
but im gonna start making my own,, soon and this will be the recipe I follow to some extent
also does the flavour meat contain bones or is this just meat? so confusing lol


----------



## anotheruser

Hi

Yeah, I still follow this recipe.

As far as I remember the lamb is used as a "base meat" because it's a little more fatty. I'm sure you could replace it with duck as that is also pretty fatty, but I wouldn't combine the two as then it'll be too rich.
You could try a bit of normal lamb mixed with another meat as a test and see if your kitty takes it?

The flavour meat doesn't include bones


----------



## Paddypaws

shadow and lightning......mine are not too keen on lamb either but love pork. If you feel there is not enough fat in the mix you can easily add a spoon or two of duck or goose fat which can be bought in jars in all the supermarkets these days.


----------



## anotheruser

Just a quick bump as I've updated some of the pictures to show the chunked meat a bit better.
I've also done a small refresh of the wording and swapped some things around in the method to make it easier.

Merry Christmas


----------



## Aum

anotheruser said:


> Just a quick bump as I've updated some of the pictures to show the chunked meat a bit better.
> I've also done a small refresh of the wording and swapped some things around in the method to make it easier.
> 
> Merry Christmas


Great, thanks!

Your post is extremely helpful, since I am also transitioning my kitties to raw food. I have a snobby one being difficult, but I won't give up.

Merry Christmas to you and everyone


----------



## anotheruser

*15.01.2015:*

Just posted a large update to the thread as I've changed the recipe I followed before to one that no longer uses supplements, and included the reasons why I've decided to make that change.

I've tried to be fair and include as much information as well as other recipes and sources of info, so I think it's a pretty balanced view.

If you think it's worth stickying instead of the older somewhat out of date "thinking about raw feeding" thread, please contact a mod and make that suggestion


----------



## felinenutritionawareness

I like the update :thumbup:

Edited: Can I ask, seeing as you have decided not to use the supplements why your using taurine? The reason why I ask is because heart, thighs, legs, wings, neck contain high amounts of taurine as they are parts used the most by animals and if you feed these parts of meat your cat will be getting lots of taurine in the meat?


----------



## Satori

Nice work, as usual. Couple of observations.

I would never use sardines in oil. Even if washed off, it isn't clear whether the damage has already been done because of marination.

Like you say, everyone should do their own research. Fwiw, personally I would be concerned about vitamin E deficiency with that recipe and and would supplement accordingly. I would likely go with NRC recommendation of 10iu/g/kg.


----------



## lymorelynn

Such a clear recipe and instructions :thumbup1: I am going to make it a sticky.
If not using tinned sardines would fresh oily fish do the same job? I was thinking mackerel or sprats maybe?


----------



## Jonny and Slush

Thank-you so much for taking the time to write and update this thread with your experiences. So pleased to see it stickied since when I joined I was rather disappointed to see the original raw foods thread had the OP deleted.

Slush is moving in with me on the 31st Jan, I will take a few weeks to transition her from her current 'Tesco Purple wet food' over to Macs first. This will give time for her to settle in, go to the vets on the 9th, see the dental hygienist as soon after as possible and get a scale and polish if needed. Once that is done I will introduce her with some raw chicken wings to gnaw and feed on and hope to eventually go full raw in the future. As an aquarium keeper I am all about as natural as possible 

I have a few questions if you don't mind? 

1) How are the grinders for cleaning? I don't have a dishwasher so it will be all hand done, is it easy enough to get man hands inside all the parts for a proper clean?

2) Is it at all possible I might be able to talk a butcher into grinding up the meat part for me then just mixing in the egg/taurine at home? No idea if this is something they would consider doing.

3) When trialing with a 'hand chop' to start, how are the bones done? Do I need something special to get them down to the appropriate size?

Thanks!


----------



## anotheruser

felinenutritionawareness said:


> I like the update :thumbup:
> 
> Edited: Can I ask, seeing as you have decided not to use the supplements why your using taurine? The reason why I ask is because heart, thighs, legs, wings, neck contain high amounts of taurine as they are parts used the most by animals and if you feed these parts of meat your cat will be getting lots of taurine in the meat?


It depends what flavour meat I use.
As I used chicken breast then that won't contain as much as diced beef would, so I usually add a little just to be on the safe side. But as you say, chicken thigh or other parts of the chicken would contain enough without adding. I'll add this 



Satori said:


> I would never use sardines in oil. Even if washed off, it isn't clear whether the damage has already been done because of marination.


Good call 
Changed the wording to reflect this.



lymorelynn said:


> Such a clear recipe and instructions :thumbup1: I am going to make it a sticky.
> If not using tinned sardines would fresh oily fish do the same job? I was thinking mackerel or sprats maybe?


Fresh is even better!
The fish is really there for the nutrients. I've read in the past about people buying human fish oil caplets and squeezing the contents in. While time consuming, it can be effective but I prefer using real fish; fresh would be even better.

Pilchards or salmon are another good fish to use, anything high in omega 3 



Jonny and Slush said:


> 1) How are the grinders for cleaning? I don't have a dishwasher so it will be all hand done, is it easy enough to get man hands inside all the parts for a proper clean?


Yes 
The actual grinder machine will just need a wipe with antibacterial afterwards, but the removable parts all wash easy. When I'm done with the grinder, I usually slosh the bits in the water I've been washing my hands in, then wash up straight away afterwards as usual. If you're fairly quick in doing all three, there won't be any time for anything to dry and stick on.
COAT THE GRINDING DISC/PLATE IN OIL.



Jonny and Slush said:


> 2) Is it at all possible I might be able to talk a butcher into grinding up the meat part for me then just mixing in the egg/taurine at home? No idea if this is something they would consider doing.


It would depend on the butcher.
Most probably wouldn't want to as their grinding machines have to be cleaned after each different meat. But you can cut it all with a knife? I don't because I'm a bit lazy but it's something I will try and transition to.
As a side note, my butcher gave me nearly a whole cow heart, frozen once. It was really easy to cut into cubes. Some supermarkets already have hearts cut into cubes so it'll just be everything else.



Jonny and Slush said:


> 3) When trialing with a 'hand chop' to start, how are the bones done? Do I need something special to get them down to the appropriate size?


No.
A sharp knife should do it, or a cleaving knife should do. Might be worth asking your local butcher. Don't worry about chopping them small. The grinder makes them like peanuts, so my kitties aren't really getting the best work out they could.
Maybe feed a chicken wing (sometimes exposing the meat a little helps entice them) and see how they eat it and what they leave.

The next time I make a batch (probably in a month or so), I'll try chopping the wings and see how easy/difficult it is.


----------



## Jonny and Slush

Thanks so much for the answers there  Definitely something I want to get Slush onto if she will take to it and will feel so much better knowing just exactly what is in all her food


----------



## Paddypaws

The excellent Feline Nutrition site has updated it's recipe page and now includes a calculator so that you can work out relevant weights of meat, bone etc.
They do encourage the use of supplements and also include calculations for them.
403: Access Forbidden
Feline Nutrition Recipe Calculator


----------



## thislittlekitty

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to the forum and was so excited to come across such a comprehensive thread about raw feeding. Great article and extremely helpful!

I would like to transition my 5YO male onto raw, but I'm not keen on grinding my own. My first thought was to try him on Natures Menu or Natural Instinct prepared raw food. But, I was curious about another potentially more cost-effective (& semi-homemade!) option: Purchase ready ground, raw meat and bone 'mince' from a pet meat supplier, and then supplement accordingly with Felini Complete powder to make a complete diet.

Have any of you tried transitioning to raw using this method? Having read about Felini Complete I think it has all necessary vitamins and minerals... but a little advice would really help! Would I need to add anything else to the meat to make the diet complete or will the powder be enough? I will be purchasing Felini from zooplus as I can't see it cheaper elsewhere and I've been ordering their high quality foods already for years. (Purizon, Bozita, Applaws to name a few)

Link: Felini Complete: great deals on cat food and supplements at zooplus

*Have attached a pic and ingredients analysis for your reference*


----------



## Vanessa131

My six month old kitten has now had two natures menu raw meals, in my freezer I have two capon necks and chicken wings, I also have some lambs heart in the fridge. 

Until myself and kitty are more confident the wings etc will be treat food. Now obviously heart is quite fatty, so when cutting it up do I add the fat or do I trim some of it off? 

My slaughter house sells sheep plucks, they only sell these to myself as I work at a school as so I use them in science lessons, they are of course from animals fit for human consumption so at £4 a go they're pretty good. When making a meal I know how much liver and kidney to add for example, but what about things like stomach, lung or trachea? Or are they not really worth feeding? I can also get a beef pluck for £7.


----------



## felinenutritionawareness

Vanessa131 said:


> My six month old kitten has now had two natures menu raw meals, in my freezer I have two capon necks and chicken wings, I also have some lambs heart in the fridge.
> 
> Until myself and kitty are more confident the wings etc will be treat food. Now obviously heart is quite fatty, so when cutting it up do I add the fat or do I trim some of it off?
> 
> My slaughter house sells sheep plucks, they only sell these to myself as I work at a school as so I use them in science lessons, they are of course from animals fit for human consumption so at £4 a go they're pretty good. When making a meal I know how much liver and kidney to add for example, but what about things like stomach, lung or trachea? Or are they not really worth feeding? I can also get a beef pluck for £7.


Regarding the fat on the hearts, I tend to cut the fat off if there is too much fat or chop it up and leave it in if there isn't. Your choice really.

Regarding the lungs, stomach and trachea, the more different organs you can feed the better (I feed rabbits brains and eyes as well), if your cat will eat them. Some of us just feed kidney because its all we can get hold of but the more secreting organs you can get hold of the more variety you can give you cat as this is what they would naturally eat when eating prey they have killed.

The ratios are 80% meat, 5% liver, 5% other organs and 10% bones these percenrages are of your cats body weight eg my cat is 3.9kg and is fed 93.6g meat, 5.85g liver, 5.85g other organs and 11.7g edible bone (soft bones like chicken necks, rabbits ribs etc) per day. I dont add, added supplements or taurine as I tend to use muscle meat as it is packed full of taurine so are hearts as they are working parts of animals eg wings, legs, hearts, necks etc and I very the meat daily which keeps my cat interested in the food and balances out the nutrition (I feed lamb's leg meat - not skin or bone, lamb's neck - not bone or skin, rabbit, wood pigeon, chicken breasts and legs, turkey leg - no skin or bone, turkey wings - no bone or skin and beef - no bone or skin), and I give her fish once a week for the omega 3 and 6 (My cat likes whole sprats and farmed salmon).


----------



## anotheruser

thislittlekitty said:


> ...Purchase ready ground, raw meat and bone 'mince' from a pet meat supplier, and then supplement accordingly with Felini Complete powder to make a complete diet.


Felini is used by others to supplement but forget about it for now as you need to make sure the meat you are purchasing has 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other offal. If you _know_ the meat has those ratios, then you shouldn't need to supplement, especially if using eggs but yes, Felini is a good supplement package.


----------



## Faerie Queene

I've introduced Lambs' Hearts to my catz diet and they love them!

We're on Day 2 and they've cleared their bowls,
even eating the other foods, that usually have a bit left over.


----------



## Citrineblue

Please remember with Felini Complete it already has Calcium in it so you MUST NOT have a bone in mince to mix it with. This is a quote from the feeding recommendation section for this product on Zooplus.

Similarly with TCFeline, no bone added to the mix.

"Application & Dosage:
A supplementary cat feed.
A fully grown cat weighing 4.5kg requires approx. 130g of meat spread out over 2-3 meals. Mix 65g of meat in with 0.8g of Felini Complete (flat spoon) and 2 tbsp of water. For the preparation of larger amounts give 12.5g of Felini Complete with 1kg of meat.
As well as muscle meat, heart (up to 15%), stomach and kidneys (up to 5%) can be fed to your cat. As Felini Complete contains calcium, phosphorous and vitamin A, you should not feed your cat bones or liver. Do not feed any pork. Felini Complete contains sufficient taurine. It supplements pure meat to achieve a balanced meal. No other supplements are necessary.
Please store in a cool, dark and dry place. Always read the instructions supplied."


----------



## FrenzyBanana

Hi. I have 8 months cat.
I dont know if i fed my cat too much or if i fed him not enough.
How much do i need to feed him?

He's unstoppable when it comes to food. I dont want him to be over fed


----------



## anotheruser

He won't be over fed.

Feed as much as he'll eat. Or if you're not keen on the ever growing stomach, feed 2%-3% of the body weight per day.
I feed mine about 125g a day, split between two meals.


----------



## mmking

I've been feeding Samelan a raw diet for around 3 weeks now, and he's settling with it quite nicely. I feed him 4% of body weight, made up of 80% muscle meat, 10% offal, and a meaty bone (a whole chicken wing at the moment). This is split between 2 main meals, with the chicken wing given late evening as a supper. A couple of times a week I substitute his breakfast meat with a tin of sardines in water, or some tuna canned in water.

I've been reading a website that goes into detail about why raw meat for cats should never be minced (ground for Americans), so I leave Samelan's meat in chunks. It also explains that RMB's (raw meaty bones) should not be minced, as in the wild, the cat would crunch and eat the bones. The cat is not stupid and will always know if a bone is too much for him to handle, and Samelan always leaves the largest central wing bone.

The chunky meat and whole bones necessite him chewing and gnawing, which cleans his teeth and gums in a way that minced mush can't. Also, mincing increases the surface area of the meat, which then oxidises much quicker.

I'd be interest in what the other raw folks here think. Samelan loves his new regime and although a tad more expensive than commercial pap, it is much healthier for him to eat as nature intended him to.


----------



## Stupot42

I have a quick noob question if someone would be so kind as to answer...

I'm keen to get my two kittens onto a raw meat diet, and have taken the first step by giving them the shoulder bone with meat scraps still attached which we removed from our joint before cooking. They demolished the meat and left the bone which we knew would be too big for them, although it did take a trip around the hallway which my wife wasn't too happy with.

I want to take the next step and try them on some chicken wings and some heart as treats before giving them an entirely raw diet.

My question is about the chicken wings and the recent news about the levels of bacteria on supermarket chicken (my only real option as our butcher has already confirmed that his chickens are frozen and not suitable for refreezing). I know that cats have the stomach for the bacteria that you get from a whole prey diet, but am I going to harm my little boys if the chicken I give them is carrying a large number of bacteria? I've also considered buying a large bag of frozen chicken wings to defrost as and when I want to give them and wondered about the merits of the idea?

Thanks in advance for your help!


----------



## idris

Hello.
I buy all my raw as human grade meat from tesco. I would just buy I packet of wings at first for your first try. They should come In three sections. Your cats need to strengthen their jaws considerably before tackling the bone furthest from the tip. You could cop that bit off and cook it for yourselves. The rest you can get away with giving it cropped up quite small with a clever. How old are your kittens? I started mine on chicken necks. The bones are a lot smaller and easier to crunch ,perhaps ask your butcher about necks and gizzards. Gizzards are notoriously tough and great for jaw strengthening.


----------



## Stupot42

idris said:


> Hello.
> How old are your kittens?


Thanks for the reply, Idris.

My kittens are more like teenagers really... they're 7 months old now. At the moment they're eating tinned Butcher's Classic food. They were on a variety of different dried food too until I found out how bad it is for them a month or so ago.

Can you get necks and gizzards from the supermarket?


----------



## idris

We 'll I could get them from my Tesco but only because they had a halal butchers in tescos itself. If you live in a melting pot like me most halal butchers will sell them or kosher ones too for that matter. Try asking your normal butcher as a special request you never know he might come up trumps.


----------



## Stupot42

Thanks, I'll see what I can get from the butcher!


----------



## stockwellcat.

anotheruser said:


> *INTRODUCTION:*
> There are a number of different recipes, methods and ideas around raw food feeding. Some recipes don't use grinders, others do. Some don't use supplements, others promote them. This is the method I follow and as time goes on, my recipe changes depending on what research *I* do - that doesn't mean believing the first thing I read on the internet about it!
> 
> The basic common flow through all the recipes I have seen is still 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% offal. If you get this right, you're doing fine  Most recipes make sure 5% of the offal is liver. Only *you* can make your mind up what you want to feed your kitties. In the wild cats won't get exact ratios right of anything. Many times my butcher doesn't weigh the meats to the gram but so long as it's pretty much 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other offal then it's good enough for me.
> 
> Every improvement I make, I'll update this thread and add info to the change log found in post 2.
> 
> *BACKGROUND:*
> I have two cats. Luckily they will eat pretty much any type of food I give them so I didn't think home made raw would be a challenge. I have fed commercial raw, which was fine.
> 
> With tinned food, I usually feed about 200g per day per cat, which works out well as most tins are around 400g. However as raw food is much better, they don't need as much so it's about 130g. Some cats will eat more than this, others less but don't be afraid if coming from commercial pouches or tinned food how small the portion looks; it's got a lot more goodness in it.
> 
> *NON-FOOD ITEMS:
> Grinder:* The initial ~£65 for a grinder is fairly expensive let's face it. However if you really want to go full in with raw feeding, then it'll save you money in the long run. Plus, if you decide to no longer grind anything (my eventual plan), then you'll be able to re-sell the grinder at a good price and re-coup most of your money. Just remember to keep the box and all attachments.
> I purchased an Andrew James Premium Grinder. Check other websites (such as eBay) as it may be cheaper, particularly with regard to postage costs. Other members have a Kenwood MG510, which does look sexier in the kitchen.
> 
> _*IMPORTANT:*_ After cleaning I found the grinding disc/plate had rusted slightly so I emailled to ask for replacements. The company told me to call, then I was told to email with pictures, no response, called again, told to email (again)... In the end I sent a message through ebay who then gave me another number to call. Finally they arranged a return for the whole grinder and after three further weeks, I was finally refunded. There are also questions regarding AJ and their ethical stance. Here's a post describing the price fluctuations since the horse meat scandal of 2013. In a nut shell, it went from around £80 to £400 within a couple of weeks. However the going rate can be anything from £60 to £99 - anything outside of this and you've got a bargain or been had. The Kenwood grinder on the other hand seems to keep a steady price.
> 
> *Bowls:* Have a number of bowls ready. I bought some cheap Asda Smart Price bowls, which are great for preparing the food. Obviously the number of bowls depends on the quantity and different flavours of food you make.
> 
> *Whisk:* While not really needed (a common fork has been used for decades), these Nova Whisks make whisking really quick, easy and fun.
> 
> *RECIPES:*
> Here is a list of recipes found around the internet. Take a look at each one and decide which you want to follow.
> Cat Nutrition | Cat Info | Feline Nutrition | Pet Forums - Hobbs' | Facebook CCRAP.
> 
> I use a slightly altered version from the Cat RaP facebook group. An active user of the group has asked some interesting questions regarding another recipe I used and in my quest for simplification, it all made sense. Check the Files from that group for the original spreadsheet of ingredients, which also includes costings.
> 
> *INGREDIENTS:*
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1.5kg - Flavour meat (Beef, chicken, rabbit, venison, lamb, turkey, pheasant)
> 880g - Heart
> 500g - Chicken wings
> 220g - Kidney
> 220g - Liver
> 2 tins - Sardines
> 9 - Medium eggs
> 
> 
> View attachment 151399
> 
> _Meats from the supermarket._
> 
> *Chicken Wings:* I estimate chicken wings are 50% bone, 50% meat, so have adjusted the flavour meat to reflect this.
> 
> *Sardines:* Most come in a tomato sauce, which can be washed off. Others come in oil, which isn't healthy for the kitties at all and avoid brine as this contains a lot of salt. Some premium brands come in spring water, which is preferable but pushes the price up.
> 
> *Eggs:* There is no evidence either way on whether the albumen (the clear/white part of the egg) is good or bad for cats. I use both parts but if you're using yolks only, you may want to add a little water to the mix.
> 
> *Heart:* Morrisons' heart comes chopped up in chunk pieces, so if purchasing from here, you can add it just as it is.
> 
> _*NOTE:* Asda smart price chicken wings come in 1kg packs. As only half is required per one batch, you could look at purchasing a second flavour of meat and make two flavours at a time. Remember to double up everything else too!_
> 
> *SUPPLEMENTS:*
> Here's a quote from the Cat RaP facebook group:
> 
> _"Either grinding, or freezing, or both will degrade taurine levels but it is only minor. It is only really an issue with low taurine meats like rabbit or chicken breast, most other meats including the rest of a chicken has enough that the slight degradation will not take it below the minimum requirements.
> 
> The idea that you need to add vitamins, minerals and amino acids is a throwback from commercial pet foods where the heat treatment destroys them and so they HAVE to be added at the end. This has led people to think they must be added to raw and the myth propagates through the raw feeding community and somehow elevates to a fact.
> 
> Adding extra taurine is not a problem, but adding some vitamins, fat based like E and A could result in an overdose"_
> 
> I can see the logic in that so have dropped them all together. Further reading: Vitamin A overdose.
> 
> *METHOD:*
> Get all the containers, bowls, grinders and knives ready. You don't want to leave the meat hanging around while you find containers to put the mix in. Also make sure you have room in the freezer!
> 
> _*NOTE:* You can either slice, dice, chop or grind. Whenever you see the grinder being mentioned, there is no reason you can't chop that item up instead._
> 
> *1:* Whisk the eggs in one of the bowls. If adding taurine, do this now to mix it in nicely.
> 
> *2:* Add the "flavour" meat in chunks to the eggs. Chunks allow the kitties to chew, thus strengthening their jaws.
> 
> *3:* Get those chicken wings through the grinder and add them to the bowl.
> 
> View attachment 151401
> 
> _Ground chicken wings._
> 
> *4:* Wash the sardines in a bowl of cold water. Then chop them or grind them and add to the mix. This is when things start to get a little smelly!
> 
> View attachment 151400
> 
> _Washed sardines._
> 
> *5:* Next add the heart to the bowl. Any blood "juice" can be added to the bowl directly.
> 
> View attachment 171181
> 
> _Meats prior to mixing._
> 
> *6:* Slice, dice, chop or grind the rest of the offal and add those to the bowl and mix well!
> 
> View attachment 171182
> 
> _Meats after mixing._
> 
> _*NOTE:* Half fill a bowl with warm water to rinse your hands._
> 
> _*NOTE:* I put each ingredient through the grinder, then just split the ground result between the different flavours I made._
> 
> _*NOTE:* Wash, dry and coat the grinding disc/plate part of the machine in cooking oil. If you don't coat the plate, it will go rusty._
> 
> *TUBBING UP:*
> Grab a ladle and fill those empty takeaway containers. 99p stores also have great tubs.
> 
> View attachment 171179
> 
> _Ready to be frozen | Weighing | Close up_
> 
> Around 520g fits in one container which should feed my kitties for around two days. Once in tubs they sat in my freezer section for cat food quite nicely.
> 
> View attachment 171180
> 
> _Packaged in the freezer_
> 
> *COST & WEIGHT - DETAILS:*
> As you don't _have_ to grind anything, getting started is relatively easy. All items can be bought at major supermarkets, but it would be worth taking a trip to your local butchers. The latter means you can ask for the weight you need, which is especially useful for the offal.
> 
> *Supermarket*:
> £10.71 - Chicken
> £1.21 - Chicken wings
> £2.93 - Heart
> £0.74 - Kidney
> £0.38 - Liver
> £0.68 - Sardines
> £0.99 - Eggs
> 
> TOTAL: £17.64
> Per day per cat cost: £1.10
> 
> *Butchers*:
> £10.71 - Chicken _(supermarket)_
> £1.21 - Chicken wings _(supermarket)_
> £2.90 - Heart
> £1.20 - Kidney
> £0.61 - Liver
> £0.68 - Sardines _(supermarket)_
> £0.99 - Eggs _(supermarket)_
> 
> TOTAL: £19.30
> Per day per cat cost: £1.20
> 
> *Weight/Percentages:*
> 1500g (flavour meat) + 880g (heart) + 250g (meat from chicken wings)
> = 2630g / 79.2%
> 
> 220g (liver) + 220g (kidney)
> = 440g / 13.2% (offal)
> 
> 250g (bone)
> = 250g / 7.5%
> 
> As you can see, the weights I use are slightly out from the 80/10/10 guide. However in reality, the amount of chicken breast I use is 1650g as it's sold in 550g packs. The bone is also an estimate. Nobody will every get it exactly right but it's good to keep an eye on when changing things.
> 
> You will also note I don't count the fish or eggs as part of the 80/10/10. The weights are nominal and they are present for their nutritional value more than anything else.
> 
> *CLOSING WORDS:*
> Is it worth it? Yes I think so. The grinder can be used if I want to make some nice mince or burgers from a "proper" piece of meat and because I am selecting the flavours and meats then I _know_ what is going into the kitties' food.
> 
> If there are any further questions, I'd be happy to answer them
> 
> A big shout out to _Cookieandme_ and _Paddypaws_ for guidance, and the many other raw feeders who inspired me to get started


Excellent thread. Very help and clearly explained.


----------



## Jcook1988

Hi I am new to this and RAW feeding. I have recently purchased natural instincts but now I am tempted to make my own.

I just wanted to double check a couple of things.

The meat flavour of beef or chicken what cut of meat should this be and do I just cut this into small chunks...

Also the chicken wings I assume I can ask the butcher and get them to grind them up for me into a fine mince..... Could I use ground up chicken carcass (the whole chicken) or does it just need to be the wings? 

How much does everyone feed their cats? It seems a lot less than the usual crap I.e Felix but obviously they are very low in anything good.

Where your cats hungry at first due to removing biscuits and processed food? 

Thanks


----------



## lymorelynn

There are some good recipes for doing your own in a sticky at the top of the health and nutrition page. You can use whole carcasses but you need to get the balance of bone, meat and offal in the right proportions.


----------



## Paddypaws

Always follow a carefully calculated recipe and do not even bother trying to make one up your self.
I use a Kenwood MG510 meat grinder and use chicken legs to which I add the required amount of meat, heart liver etc to provide a balanced meal at less than half the price of Natural Instinct.
If your cat is happy to eat chunked meat and bone then that is even better but you still need to follow a recipe. Look at the Cat Crap group on facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/CatCrap/?ref=br_tf


----------



## Jcook1988

Paddypaws said:


> Always follow a carefully calculated recipe and do not even bother trying to make one up your self.
> I use a Kenwood MG510 meat grinder and use chicken legs to which I add the required amount of meat, heart liver etc to provide a balanced meal at less than half the price of Natural Instinct.
> If your cat is happy to eat chunked meat and bone then that is even better but you still need to follow a recipe. Look at the Cat Crap group on facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/CatCrap/?ref=br_tf


Hello! I have already joined that page. I was actually planning on following the recipe on this page as I do like the look of it.

My cats won't eat whole bones I have tried them with thighs etc before but they will eat chunks of meat. My butcher has already said he can grind the wings up for me so I wouldn't need a grinder.

My main thing was could I use ground up chicken carcass instead of the wings but the same amount?

Thanks


----------



## Jcook1988

Hello! I have made my first batch of Raw cat food (from the above recipe)
I let them try all the meat and organs and chicken wing tips on their own first they liked them all.

But now I have put it all togeather and added the eggs my female cat doesn't seem to like it...

Any ideas?


----------



## Jcook1988

mmking said:


> I've been feeding Samelan a raw diet for around 3 weeks now, and he's settling with it quite nicely. I feed him 4% of body weight, made up of 80% muscle meat, 10% offal, and a meaty bone (a whole chicken wing at the moment). This is split between 2 main meals, with the chicken wing given late evening as a supper. A couple of times a week I substitute his breakfast meat with a tin of sardines in water, or some tuna canned in water.
> 
> I've been reading a website that goes into detail about why raw meat for cats should never be minced (ground for Americans), so I leave Samelan's meat in chunks. It also explains that RMB's (raw meaty bones) should not be minced, as in the wild, the cat would crunch and eat the bones. The cat is not stupid and will always know if a bone is too much for him to handle, and Samelan always leaves the largest central wing bone.
> 
> The chunky meat and whole bones necessite him chewing and gnawing, which cleans his teeth and gums in a way that minced mush can't. Also, mincing increases the surface area of the meat, which then oxidises much quicker.
> 
> I'd be interest in what the other raw folks here think. Samelan loves his new regime and although a tad more expensive than commercial pap, it is much healthier for him to eat as nature intended him to.


Hi do you bother with eggs?? X


----------



## Cookieandme

Jcook1988 said:


> Hi do you bother with eggs?? X


I don't know which recipe you are using but there are no eggs in the basic raw version I use.

If you don't want to grind bones - not sure I would want to rely on my butcher, there is a very good boneless version but you need to purchase some suppliiments, including egg shell powder and bone meal powder.


----------



## Jcook1988

Cookieandme said:


> I don't know which recipe you are using but there are no eggs in the basic raw version I use.
> 
> If you don't want to grind bones - not sure I would want to rely on my butcher, there is a very good boneless version but you need to purchase some suppliiments, including egg shell powder and bone meal powder.


Hi thanks I have used the recipe in this forum that's at the top. I will look into the basic raw version.


----------



## anotheruser

Jcook1988 said:


> The meat flavour of beef or chicken what cut of meat should this be and do I just cut this into small chunks...
> 
> Also the chicken wings I assume I can ask the butcher and get them to grind them up for me into a fine mince..... Could I use ground up chicken carcass (the whole chicken) or does it just need to be the wings?
> 
> How much does everyone feed their cats? It seems a lot less than the usual crap I.e Felix but obviously they are very low in anything good.
> 
> Where your cats hungry at first due to removing biscuits and processed food?


I use the cheapest cut to be honest. So long as it's meaty and not too fatty, it'll be fine.

I've not asked my butcher to grind the wings as I find it cheaper to get them from a supermarket, but give it a go. The most they'll say is no  I use the wings only as they are fairly soft. I busted a grinder by using pork bones once so beware!

I feed mine the amount at the bottom of the first post - I think it's about 125g a day but don't quote me  Different cats will eat different amounts.

The recipe at the top of this page is more basic than what I've used before and more accurate to the 80/10/5/5 ratio (as seen in the calculations). It was actually put together with the help from the Cat Crap Facebook group, so is only a slight deviation from theirs.


----------



## FOREST TINKA

http://www.naturalinstinct.com/

This is a brilliant company which I have been using. They deliver the next day too! I would highly recommend. My cats and kittens love it

www.lunaraine.co.uk
_*Lunaraine Norwegian Forest Cats *_


----------



## stockwellcat.

L


FOREST TINKA said:


> http://www.naturalinstinct.com/
> 
> This is a brilliant company which I have been using. They deliver the next day too! I would highly recommend. My cats and kittens love it
> 
> www.lunaraine.co.uk
> _*Lunaraine Norwegian Forest Cats *_





FOREST TINKA said:


> http://www.naturalinstinct.com/
> 
> This is a brilliant company which I have been using. They deliver the next day too! I would highly recommend. My cats and kittens love it
> 
> www.lunaraine.co.uk
> _*Lunaraine Norwegian Forest Cats *_


Unfortunately though not all cats like Natural Instinct, Nutriment or Kiezebink as the raw food is minced. For instance my cat only likes chunks of meat and refuses point blank to eat minced raw foods. Every cat is different though.


----------



## anotheruser

After a few years, can still say I'm sticking with raw feeding.

I've added a thought on grinding today. The main reason I use a grinder is to chomp down the chicken wings. However, I got my last selection of meat from a proper butchers shop and asked if they could bash them up. The result has been that there are pieces of bone rather than a whole wing or small fragments that had been through the grinder - even on the biggest grinding plate.

I'd thoroughly recommend asking butchers to do this if you can. You can then just mix everything together in the correct portions.

This means the ~£65 for a grinder is saved.


----------



## Cookieandme

I not sure what advantage pieces of bone would be, presumably if the butcher had bashed the bones they are small pieces, it isn't something I would ask my butcher as they are far too busy. 

Surely the point of a grinder to just to provide the calcium element, otherwise the bones need to be big enough to chew on. I wouldn't want to risk bone fragments.


----------



## anotheruser

It's a bit of both.

The butcher is happy to do it when they're quiet as I order what I need and pick it up a week later. Thinking of a chicken wing, if you broke it into 4/5 equal pieces, some only 3/4 - that's about the size.

Most of the pieces are big enough for them to have a good chew. Sometimes they have left some and come back a few hours later, but it'd be the same as people feeding a whole bone; the kitty will chew bits off to swallow rather than trying to down a whole bit 

My concern is the grinder though.
I've had one blow up one me (well, something in the element snapped/sheared), and I can't really afford the £400+ for an industrial version!


----------



## SophieBear

*This may sound like a silly question to ask (Excuse my cluelessness) But can Fish meat be used as the 1.5kg of ''Flavour Meat'' in Raw meat feeding/Recipes?
As in Boneless Fish meat, And use 500g chicken wings or something for bone content. Or even boned fish.. I'm not sure.. Can someone advise me on this ? And give me a recipe, if possible?

Thanks All! *


----------



## Emmatron

Just like to say a huge thanks for this thread. I bought a meat grinder and tried the recipe and it was a success! My only problem was what I ground all of the offal so it turned out far too sloppy! I know to cut some of into chunks next time. Kitty was unsure of it at first, but is now happily eating it (which is good because I have a whole freezer drawer full of it!!!). Happy that I can be feeding Marvin raw from now on


----------



## Pepperpots

No to the fish. A mixture of meat including red and white, with fish like sardines once a week, then your percentages of bone and organs seems to cover most things. Pork, turkey and lamb are favourites here.


----------



## bcats

labydird said:


> Wow that is great, love the pics to go with the process, glad the mincer worked well for you!
> 
> My cats won't eat mince (raw or bought!) so I spent yesterday making up a new batch, chopping all the meat up!
> 
> Here was the price of the items I bought:
> 
> Mixed mutton, some with bones which I removed: 1.5kg = £9.00
> 3 joint chicken wings (so tips too and skin) 1kg = £2.24
> Ox Liver 100g = £0.24p
> Lambs Kidneys 150g = £0.58p
> Chicken Gizzards 150g = £0.41p
> Lamb hearts 250g = £0.69p
> 
> Total £13.07
> 
> This makes enough for my 2 cats for at least 2 weeks can stretch to 3 as I still give some wet bought food alongside it.
> 
> Eggshell powder cost nothing as I make it at home myself! I still have to buy the Vit E and seaweed powder.
> 
> The salmon/fish I don't mix in but just give a portion weekly.
> 
> I chop it all up into quite generous chunks (initially were very small chunks, now they happilly hack through an inch wing with bone!) I sometimes mix it all up or make a majority chicken flavour or lamb flavour.
> 
> I usually buy lamb which works out around £3 more per kg but tried mutton this time round which they were happy to eat.
> 
> I got these small tubs with lids 12 for £1 in poundland which are great as they take 100g of meat in each one.


Excellent. So informative. Thank you.


----------



## mmking

My maine coon kitten loves raw but as whole prey rather than frankenprey. I buy whole frozen mice, rats, and day old chicks from a good reptile supplier online and they form half his diet. The other half is Butchers Classic tins which ensures he gets all the right nutrition. He loves his diet and is thriving, healthy, and happy.


----------



## QueenofRandom

Any tips on how to test this on a cat before you go whole hog? Just give them some raw meat and see how they like it?


----------



## CassandraN

@QueenofRandom yes, I just gave mine a few pieces and he scoffed them!

Can anyone check my maths here? My fussy boy will only eat chicken breast meat so the wings are out.
Can I just replace the meat portion with 250g of breast meat? Surely I've got that right, lol!
I think I'll be adding bone meal as calcium but the forum search is not working on my phone. How much (in grams) should I add to this recipe?


----------



## Paula Heaney

Hi All,

I need advice and your thought on changing my two kittens over to raw food over the next two months is this correct or not or do you think I should keep with Applaws kitten dry food with Applaws kitten wet Tuna and Chicken alternated with James Wellbeloved kitten?

The raw food I was thinking of trying is natural instinct kitten-weaning-paste first then changing between meal times and days with a choice of 
country-banquet-cat-organic-chicken
natural instinct cat-food-lamb-chicken
natural instinct country-banquet-cat-fish
natural instinct country-banquet-turkey-cat-food

I have seen on YouTube videos of people saying it can take up to 3months and are best feed them a little raw food with a little of there dry food grinded up on top to get them used to smell and trick them with the taste???

help help help lol.

thank you for your advice and thoughts before hand

Paula, Tiger Millie (Kitten), Lady Grey Molly (Kitten)


----------



## Islander

My cats get a chunk of raw chicken every day, whole. one large chicken lasts 3-4 days. an evening feed then of a tinned cat food, sometimes mixed with oats and egg. They are happy and healthy on this. Living as remote as I do where not even couriers venture. Just has to be simple.


----------



## Elian

Guys, how safe is this raw diet for a cat?

I'm considering switching our cat to a raw diet after her being diagnosed with struvite crystals from store-bought dry and wet food, but I am concerned there might be bacteria in raw meat that will harm her if uncooked. Also, don't know how much a vet's opinion weighs out on this, but I've asked several vets and they all advised against raw feeding. We used to feed her home made cat food made out of more or less the same ingredients you guys listed in this thread, except we would cook the meat first.

Would adding a teaspoon of iodine salt / lemon juice / ACV help sterilise any unwanted bacteria in the raw meat and eggs mixture? :Cat


----------



## Pepperpots

Your cat’s stomach will deal with the bacteria. Definitely don’t add salt/lemon/ACV. Follow basic hygiene rules when preparing/storing etc.
If you are worried about making it yourself there are some good completes on the market.
I use Luna and Me.


----------



## Elian

Pepperpots said:


> Your cat's stomach will deal with the bacteria. Definitely don't add salt/lemon/ACV. Follow basic hygiene rules when preparing/storing etc.
> If you are worried about making it yourself there are some good completes on the market.
> I use Luna and Me.


Thanks for your reply. I don't mind making it myself, just looking for some peace of mind to what the bacteria in meat is concerned as I don't want to do more harm than good. 

Luna and Me looks great, but they don't deliver outside of the UK and I live in Ireland so I guess that's that.


----------



## Pepperpots

Just buy chunks of meat, not supermarket mince. That way bacteria is less of an issue.


----------



## Elian

Pepperpots said:


> Just buy chunks of meat, not supermarket mince. That way bacteria is less of an issue.


For sure, definitely. I wasn't planning on buying supermarket mince anyway.


----------



## chillminx

@Elian, all raw meat contains bacteria, as you will know, (e.g. campylobacter, salmonella, e-coli etc) but it is a question of how much. Always buy the freshest ingredients possible and keep them refrigerated. Batch up into portions the same day you buy it. But if this is not possible then freeze the meat the same day you buy it, and partially defrost it in the fridge when you come to batch it up into portions. Get it back in the freezer before it has fully defrosted.

A raw diet will need to be properly balanced, with percentages of 80/10/10 of meat/offal/bone. Some people prefer to have a lower percentage of bone, say 7%. Heart counts as muscle meat, not offal. Too much heart can cause a loose bowel.

If you are going to prepare it yourself you'll need a domestic meat grinder, to mince the meat and bone together. Make up a batch of portions to last say a month, and freeze it. Freezing doesn't kill bacteria but stops it from multiplying. As soon as the meat is defrosted the bacteria will start to multiply again.

When you defrost each portion do it in the fridge and only bring it out of the fridge for 20 mins before serving. Some cats will eat it cold from the fridge. .

If you feed just chunks (or strips) of fresh raw meat on its own you will need to add a mineral & vitamin supplement such as Felini Complete, which is especially formulated for adding to raw meat to make it a complete/balanced meal. You can buy Felini from Zooplus (if they deliver to Ireland).

Mince has a larger surface area than whole chunks of meat which means more bacteria can develop. But mincing meat and freezing it straight away will stop the bacteria developing further.


----------



## Orange&White

I fed my cats and dogs a raw diet from 2008-2012, then had a change of employment and didn't think I had time to source ingredients and make cat food mix, so went back to processed pet foods until January 2017. My pets are visibly more healthy and more vibrant on raw. I've never had an issue with any illnesses from bacteria. 

As far as my veterinarian's opinion on the safety of raw food, we have a "Don't ask - Don't tell" rule. My pets are very healthy so he doesn't ask what I feed and don't volunteer the info.

I make a "chunked" 80/10/10 blend and use supplements recommended at feline-nutrition.org.


----------



## lorilu

I've been raw feeding for 7 years. I fed a rotation of prey model, muscle meat with a premix (Alnutrin and EZcomplete) and a commercial brand. The commercial brand has had to go out of business due to FDA persecution, so now I feed a rotation of prey model (with egg shell calcium instead of bone) and the two premixes. One cat eats chunks, the other I have to grind her meat in a food processor.

I don't make batches, I balance per meal. One cat eats beef, chicken (organic non-GMO breast and thigh,gizzards and hearts) lamb, pork and turkey breast. (I can't source turkey thigh) The other eats only chicken breast, chicken thigh and Cornish hen. Her meat has to be certified organic non-GMO Project Verified. I can't source organic non-GMO turkey and she can't tolerate any of the other proteins even if organic non-GMO.

I did have a campylobacter infection with a cat last summer, but she turned out to have cancer, which was determined to be the reason she was susceptible to the bacterial infection. (She's an Angel now). The other two cats did not get the campylobacter infection.

Vet is anti-raw. <shrug>


----------



## chillminx

@Orange&White - if you're using an 80/10/10 blend of chunks how are you adding the bone - are you able to grind it into a powder which you can coat the meat chunks with ? As you're adding bone to the mix I realise you won't be supplementing with calcium, so could I ask which supplements you use? Thanks.


----------



## Orange&White

chillminx said:


> @Orange&White - if you're using an 80/10/10 blend of chunks how are you adding the bone - are you able to grind it into a powder which you can coat the meat chunks with ? As you're adding bone to the mix I realise you won't be supplementing with calcium, so could I ask which supplements you use? Thanks.


Oh, gosh. For years I didn't have a grinder. I wrapped chicken frames in baggies then in a paper bag, took them out on the patio and beat them to a pulp with a hammer!  Sometime early last year, my boss bought a powerful grinder for his yearly venison, and gave me his lower-powered grinder. The grinder has made life much easier.

Supplements are egg yolks, vitamins E and B-Complex, Taurine, fish oil, and Lite salt (for iodine). This recipe is a take-off on Dr. Lisa Pierson's raw recipe: https://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition/making-raw-cat-food-for-do-it-yourselfers

I rotate the "base" boneless meat between chicken, pork, and beef. All my mixes have chicken bones for calcium, chicken liver, hearts and gizzards.

This is a mix (before I got the grinder...haven't taken a recent photo of a mix). I still chunk everything but the chicken frames. Those get ground now...instead of "smashed".


----------



## chillminx

@Orange&White

Thanks


----------



## MaggieDemi

Orange&White said:


> my boss bought a powerful grinder for his yearly venison, and gave me his lower-powered grinder. The grinder has made life much easier.


Please post a pic of your new grinder. We want to see it, or at least I do.  Are you going to make pate now?


----------



## Orange&White

MaggieDemi said:


> Please post a pic of your new grinder. We want to see it, or at least I do.  Are you going to make pate now?


I'm still making "chunked" mixes, not pate. The only difference is that I'm grinding bones instead of smashing them, so they end up more evenly spread through the mix.

The grinder is disassembled right at the moment. I've been grinding chicken frames 10-20lbs at a time and freezing in smaller bags for a batch, so I don't have to lug the grinder out, assemble, clean it, and disassemble very often. Next time I need to grind a batch, I'll try to remember to take a photo.

It does look like most meat grinders though, except that I think it may be from the 40's, 50's or 60's. My boss has a lot of items he acquired from sorting through his mother's house after she passed several years ago. It's an ACME brand, which I don't think is manufactured any longer.


----------



## Orange&White

The grinder my boss gave me looks exactly like this one (except the brand). I don't know when ACME started or stopped manufacturing. It may be newer than I think, but the ACME brand is out of production.


----------



## Ffreddie

Thank you for this amazing thread - exactly what I needed to start my baby on raw!
Just a question before I splash out on a grinder/mincer - has anyone tried putting the wings in a food processor?


----------



## Orange&White

Jordan Fleming said:


> Thank you for this amazing thread - exactly what I needed to start my baby on raw!
> Just a question before I splash out on a grinder/mincer - has anyone tried putting the wings in a food processor?


I burned out a motor on a blender and broke the blade assembly on two other "cheapie" blenders before I decided they are not powerful enough for bones. That was when I first started years ago, and don't recall, but I _probably_ tried and failed with my cheap food processor as well that first year.

I have seen YouTube videos of people successfully grinding whole chicken carcasses in a high-end, expensive VitaMix blender.


----------



## anotheruser

chillminx said:


> @Orange&White - if you're using an 80/10/10 blend of chunks how are you adding the bone - are you able to grind it into a powder which you can coat the meat chunks with ? As you're adding bone to the mix I realise you won't be supplementing with calcium, so could I ask which supplements you use? Thanks.


The chicken wings contain the bone required


----------



## Orange&White

anotheruser said:


> The chicken wings contain the bone required


Yes, they do. I use chicken frames for price. Chicken wings here are three times more expensive using the frames from whole chickens.


----------



## KoolK

I have a few questions 

1. *Do you need supplements?*
If so which ones. Some posts say no, others say they include vitamin E & B, fish oil capsules, taurine, and iodine salt.
Some users have added eggs, others say not to. What meats should you not add eggs to?

I'm worried I won't meet the healthy feeding requirements that are in standard wet food cans I buy from Zooplus.

2. *What's the difference between dicing and mince?*
My snowy is fine with mincing and small diced meat too. Is one better than the other / safer?

3. *In relation to bones* (from chicken wings), I'm worried about choking.
Some say their cats leave the big parts, others say they chop into small pieces and others say they make it into a powder.
Which is safer / better?

Can you make buy bone powder instead of using chicken wings etc?

4. As I've read by this thread, *you need a 80,10,10 (5% liver) diet. *
How do you work this out?
How do I work out how much my cat will need a day (some say they feel 3-4% of their cats weight, how do you work this out)?

Sorry I'm confused 

5. *Can you buy the meats from your usual supermarket?*
I read on here Morrisons chops some of their meats, so you don't have to, and the other supermarket I'd probably use is Asda.

6. *Also, the horror stories I've read on raw food* (_bacteria, doesn't have enough nutrients _etc).
Is there anything I need to be wary / mindful of if I go ahead with this?

Thank you & sorry for all the Q's!
A very informative post @anotheruser
@chillminx do you feed raw / have you before?

*For reference: *Snowy is turning 3 this year and eats around about 250g of complete wet food (from Zooplus) every day.


----------



## KoolK

anotheruser said:


> *INTRODUCTION:*
> There are a number of different recipes, methods and ideas around raw food feeding. Some recipes don't use grinders, others do. Some don't use supplements, others promote them. This is the method I follow and as time goes on, my recipe changes depending on what research *I* do - that doesn't mean believing the first thing I read on the internet about it!
> 
> The basic common flow through all the recipes I have seen is still 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% offal. If you get this right, you're doing fine  Most recipes make sure 5% of the offal is liver. Only *you* can make your mind up what you want to feed your kitties. In the wild cats won't get exact ratios right of anything. Many times my butcher doesn't weigh the meats to the gram but so long as it's pretty much 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other offal then it's good enough for me.
> 
> Every improvement I make, I'll update this thread and add info to the change log found in post 2.
> 
> *BACKGROUND:*
> I have two cats. Luckily they will eat pretty much any type of food I give them so I didn't think home made raw would be a challenge. I have fed commercial raw, which was fine.
> 
> With tinned food, I usually feed about 200g per day per cat, which works out well as most tins are around 400g. However as raw food is much better, they don't need as much so it's about 130g. Some cats will eat more than this, others less but don't be afraid if coming from commercial pouches or tinned food how small the portion looks; it's got a lot more goodness in it.
> 
> *NON-FOOD ITEMS:
> Grinder:* The initial ~£65 for a grinder is fairly expensive let's face it. However if you really want to go full in with raw feeding, then it'll save you money in the long run. Plus, if you decide to no longer grind anything (my eventual plan), then you'll be able to re-sell the grinder at a good price and re-coup most of your money. Just remember to keep the box and all attachments.
> I purchased an Andrew James Premium Grinder. Check other websites (such as eBay) as it may be cheaper, particularly with regard to postage costs. Other members have a Kenwood MG510, which does look sexier in the kitchen.
> 
> _*IMPORTANT:*_ After cleaning I found the grinding disc/plate had rusted slightly so I emailled to ask for replacements. The company told me to call, then I was told to email with pictures, no response, called again, told to email (again)... In the end I sent a message through ebay who then gave me another number to call. Finally they arranged a return for the whole grinder and after three further weeks, I was finally refunded. There are also questions regarding AJ and their ethical stance. Here's a post describing the price fluctuations since the horse meat scandal of 2013. In a nut shell, it went from around £80 to £400 within a couple of weeks. However the going rate can be anything from £60 to £99 - anything outside of this and you've got a bargain or been had. The Kenwood grinder on the other hand seems to keep a steady price.
> 
> *Other Grinding Thoughts:* After grinding the chicken wings for the past few years, I would recommend it, especially for a beginner. However I have now begun to ask my butcher to simply bash the chicken wings up. This means I am grinding nothing. Sometimes the kitties eat them, other times they will leave it to come back to during the day. I always remove any leftovers before the next meal.
> 
> *Bowls:* Have a number of bowls ready. I bought some cheap Asda Smart Price bowls, which are great for preparing the food. Obviously the number of bowls depends on the quantity and different flavours of food you make.
> 
> *Whisk:* While not really needed (a common fork has been used for decades), these Nova Whisks make whisking really quick, easy and fun.
> 
> *RECIPES:*
> Here is a list of recipes found around the internet. Take a look at each one and decide which you want to follow.
> Cat Nutrition | Cat Info | Feline Nutrition | Pet Forums - Hobbs' | Facebook CCRAP.
> 
> I use a slightly altered version from the Cat RaP facebook group. An active user of the group has asked some interesting questions regarding another recipe I used and in my quest for simplification, it all made sense. Check the Files from that group for the original spreadsheet of ingredients, which also includes costings.
> 
> *INGREDIENTS:*
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> 1.5kg - Flavour meat (Beef, chicken, rabbit, venison, lamb, turkey, pheasant)
> 880g - Heart
> 500g - Chicken wings
> 220g - Kidney
> 220g - Liver
> 2 tins - Sardines
> 9 - Medium eggs
> 
> 
> View attachment 151399
> 
> _Meats from the supermarket._
> 
> *Chicken Wings:* I estimate chicken wings are 50% bone, 50% meat, so have adjusted the flavour meat to reflect this.
> 
> *Sardines:* Most come in a tomato sauce, which can be washed off. Others come in oil, which isn't healthy for the kitties at all and avoid brine as this contains a lot of salt. Some premium brands come in spring water, which is preferable but pushes the price up.
> 
> *Eggs:* There is no evidence either way on whether the albumen (the clear/white part of the egg) is good or bad for cats. I use both parts but if you're using yolks only, you may want to add a little water to the mix.
> 
> *Heart:* Morrisons' heart comes chopped up in chunk pieces, so if purchasing from here, you can add it just as it is.
> 
> _*NOTE:* Asda smart price chicken wings come in 1kg packs. As only half is required per one batch, you could look at purchasing a second flavour of meat and make two flavours at a time. Remember to double up everything else too!_
> 
> *SUPPLEMENTS:*
> Here's a quote from the Cat RaP facebook group:
> 
> _"Either grinding, or freezing, or both will degrade taurine levels but it is only minor. It is only really an issue with low taurine meats like rabbit or chicken breast, most other meats including the rest of a chicken has enough that the slight degradation will not take it below the minimum requirements.
> 
> The idea that you need to add vitamins, minerals and amino acids is a throwback from commercial pet foods where the heat treatment destroys them and so they HAVE to be added at the end. This has led people to think they must be added to raw and the myth propagates through the raw feeding community and somehow elevates to a fact.
> 
> Adding extra taurine is not a problem, but adding some vitamins, fat based like E and A could result in an overdose"_
> 
> I can see the logic in that so have dropped them all together. Further reading: Vitamin A overdose.
> 
> *METHOD:*
> Get all the containers, bowls, grinders and knives ready. You don't want to leave the meat hanging around while you find containers to put the mix in. Also make sure you have room in the freezer!
> 
> _*NOTE:* You can either slice, dice, chop or grind. Whenever you see the grinder being mentioned; there is no reason you can't chop that item up instead._
> 
> *1:* Whisk the eggs in one of the bowls. If adding taurine, do this now to mix it in nicely.
> 
> *2:* Add the "flavour" meat in chunks to the eggs. Chunks allow the kitties to chew, thus strengthening their jaws.
> 
> *3:* Get those chicken wings through the grinder and add them to the bowl.
> 
> View attachment 151401
> 
> _Ground chicken wings._
> 
> *4:* Wash the sardines in a bowl of cold water. Then chop them or grind them and add to the mix. This is when things start to get a little smelly!
> 
> View attachment 151400
> 
> _Washed sardines._
> 
> *5:* Next add the heart to the bowl. Any blood "juice" can be added to the bowl directly.
> 
> View attachment 171181
> 
> _Meats prior to mixing._
> 
> *6:* Slice, dice, chop or grind the rest of the offal and add those to the bowl and mix well!
> 
> View attachment 171182
> 
> _Meats after mixing._
> 
> _*NOTE:* Half fill a bowl with warm water to rinse your hands._
> 
> _*NOTE:* I put each ingredient through the grinder, then just split the ground result between the different flavours I made._
> 
> _*NOTE:* Wash, dry and coat the grinding disc/plate part of the machine in cooking oil. If you don't coat the plate, it will go rusty._
> 
> *TUBBING UP:*
> Grab a ladle and fill those empty takeaway containers. 99p stores also have great tubs.
> 
> View attachment 171179
> 
> _Ready to be frozen | Weighing | Close up_
> 
> Around 520g fits in one container which should feed my kitties for around two days. Once in tubs they sat in my freezer section for cat food quite nicely.
> 
> View attachment 171180
> 
> _Packaged in the freezer_
> 
> *COST & WEIGHT - DETAILS:*
> As you don't _have_ to grind anything, getting started is relatively easy. All items can be bought at major supermarkets, but it would be worth taking a trip to your local butchers. The latter means you can ask for the weight you need, which is especially useful for the offal.
> 
> *Supermarket*:
> £10.71 - Chicken
> £1.21 - Chicken wings
> £2.93 - Heart
> £0.74 - Kidney
> £0.38 - Liver
> £0.68 - Sardines
> £0.99 - Eggs
> 
> TOTAL: £17.64
> Per day per cat cost: £1.10
> 
> *Butchers*:
> £10.71 - Chicken _(supermarket)_
> £1.21 - Chicken wings _(supermarket)_
> £2.90 - Heart
> £1.20 - Kidney
> £0.61 - Liver
> £0.68 - Sardines _(supermarket)_
> £0.99 - Eggs _(supermarket)_
> 
> TOTAL: £19.30
> Per day per cat cost: £1.20
> 
> *Weight/Percentages:*
> 1500g (flavour meat) + 880g (heart) + 250g (meat from chicken wings)
> = 2630g / 79.2%
> 
> 220g (liver) + 220g (kidney)
> = 440g / 13.2% (offal)
> 
> 250g (bone)
> = 250g / 7.5%
> 
> As you can see, the weights I use are slightly out from the 80/10/10 guide. However in reality, the amount of chicken breast I use is 1650g as it's sold in 550g packs. The bone is also an estimate. Nobody will every get it exactly right but it's good to keep an eye on when changing things.
> 
> You will also note I don't count the fish or eggs as part of the 80/10/10. The weights are nominal and they are present for their nutritional value more than anything else.
> 
> *CLOSING WORDS:*
> Is it worth it? Yes I think so. The grinder can be used if I want to make some nice mince or burgers from a "proper" piece of meat and because I am selecting the flavours and meats then I _know_ what is going into the kitties' food.
> 
> If there are any further questions, I'd be happy to answer them
> 
> A big shout out to _Cookieandme_ and _Paddypaws_ for guidance, and the many other raw feeders who inspired me to get started


A question if I may,
Both kidney and heart are offal, why add both? Can't you just add liver & heart/kidney instead?

Do you need both?


----------



## chillminx

Kidney and heart have different properties. You would not want to give much heart as it is loosening to the bowel. Good in small amounts as it will prevent constipation. And of course as you may know, only small amount of liver because you do not want to overdose him on vitamin A. So kidney is a good type of offal to add as well for variety. 

Like lorilu I strongly recommend you do not make up the exact same meats all the time. Snowy needs variety and also a variety of meats will reduce the risk of allergies developing. 

For example, you can get pig kidney, lamb kidney or ox kidney, also lambs liver, pigs liver or ox liver. Muscle meat can be bought as chicken drumsticks, turkey thigh, lamb, pork, beef. 

Also as lorilu said, it depends on the individual cat what texture they like. My cat who loves raw doesn't mind. I use to give him small chunks with some mince so I could hide the supplement in the mince. But after a frightening incident a couple of years ago when he choked on a chunk of lamb and stopped breathing, I stopped giving him chunks and now give only minced. I have a meat grinder. But some of the raw pet food suppliers sell prepared mince that I have bought in the past. 

Have you actually tried Snowy with raw yet? Not all cats like raw meat.


----------



## KoolK

chillminx said:


> Kidney and heart have different properties. You would not want to give much heart as it is loosening to the bowel. Good in small amounts as it will prevent constipation. And of course as you may know, only small amount of liver because you do not want to overdose him on vitamin A. So kidney is a good type of offal to add as well for variety.
> 
> Like lorilu I strongly recommend you do not make up the exact same meats all the time. Snowy needs variety and also a variety of meats will reduce the risk of allergies developing.
> 
> For example, you can get pig kidney, lamb kidney or ox kidney, also lambs liver, pigs liver or ox liver. Muscle meat can be bought as chicken drumsticks, turkey thigh, lamb, pork, beef.
> 
> Also as lorilu said, it depends on the individual cat what texture they like. My cat who loves raw doesn't mind. I use to give him small chunks with some mince so I could hide the supplement in the mince. But after a frightening incident a couple of years ago when he choked on a chunk of lamb and stopped breathing, I stopped giving him chunks and now give only minced. I have a meat grinder. But some of the raw pet food suppliers sell prepared mince that I have bought in the past.
> 
> Have you actually tried Snowy with raw yet? Not all cats like raw meat.


Ah okay. Thanks chillminx!
That makes sense.

I haven't actually 
Still just thinking about all this for now, not really sure.
If I do ever make the switch, it'll probably when she's a little older, not yet. She likes her food now.


----------



## chillminx

Sorry for calling Snowy "he" I had forgotten Snowy is female.


----------



## lorilu

KoolK said:


> A question if I may,
> Both kidney and heart are offal, why add both? Can't you just add liver & heart/kidney instead?
> 
> Do you need both?


Heart is considered a muscle meat for the purposes of raw feeding. Kidney is a secreting organ.


----------



## anotheruser

KoolK said:


> 1. *Do you need supplements?*
> If so which ones. Some posts say no, others say they include vitamin E & B, fish oil capsules, taurine, and iodine salt.
> Some users have added eggs, others say not to. What meats should you not add eggs to?


I started by adding a whole different bunch of supplements but later stopped.
It's difficult to know whether it had any long term effects including them or not but neither suddenly got sick after I stopped.
I added eggs to all meats I used.

Look on the back of a tin of cat food.
You'll see many say a "minimum of 4% meat" - bet your bottom dollar this is about the maximum of meat added too. If it was 50%, it would be in the marketing - just like many chicken nuggets are "made from 100% chicken breast". Some foods from Zooplus claim to be loads better than what we have in the UK but still not as natural as raw food.



KoolK said:


> 2. *What's the difference between dicing and mince?*
> My snowy is fine with mincing and small diced meat too. Is one better than the other / safer?


Neither really.
Mincing is a little lazy eating from the cat but then mine give up when the chunks are too big. In the latter days of raw feeding, I used to "chunk" (or dice) chicken/turkey breast, plus pork*** or beef steaks. However, I'd usually pick up a portion of beef (or pork) mince, which would be minced anyway.

_*** Some people say don't feed pork because of the extra bacteria or salt content. I honestly didn't notice anything different when I started or when I stopped. Maybe I was lucky._



KoolK said:


> 3. *In relation to bones* (from chicken wings), I'm worried about choking.
> Some say their cats leave the big parts, others say they chop into small pieces and others say they make it into a powder.
> Which is safer / better?
> 
> Can you make buy bone powder instead of using chicken wings etc?


In the latter days, this was the only part that went through the grinder. They came out as a sort of boney mince, so my kitties could chew on them, but there wouldn't be any sharp parts for them to choke on. If you have a grinder, I would say grind. Although in the very early days, both mine would sit and chew a full chicken wing like a dog chews a bone (think cartoons). They didn't seem to mind that and would know their limits.

You can buy bone powder, but you will also miss out on the kitties practicing chewing with something more beefy than a mince. One of the benefits to bones is teeth cleaning, although mine still had a few out at age 10 so not sure of the proper claims of that.



KoolK said:


> 4. As I've read by this thread, *you need a 80,10,10 (5% liver) diet. *
> How do you work this out?
> How do I work out how much my cat will need a day (some say they feel 3-4% of their cats weight, how do you work this out)?


Weigh your cat.
It can be hard but any guide is better than none. Most will sit still enough to get a half meaningful reading.
If they are 5KG (that's 5000g), divide that by 100 and multiply the answer by the percentage you want to get the weight.

FOOD PORTIONING:
Really depends how
big of a batch you're making, but go from the biggest value, which is the flavour meat + heart. In the recipe I used, 1.5kg + 880g = 2,380g all together. Divide that value by 100, which gives you 1%. Then multiply that % by 5 or 10, whichever percent you need. In this case, it's 10, which gives us 238. You'll notice that value is different to what is in the recipe. I can't remember why or how but I adjusted some values to take into account other bits and pieces after a conversation with Hobbs.
Remember, while it's great to get exact values, ones that are within 5% correct will be fine.

CAT WEIGHT - Use the same mathematics as above:
5000(g) (cat weight) / 100 = 50(g).
50(g) x 4(%) = 200.
Your cat will need around 200g of food *a day*.



KoolK said:


> 5. *Can you buy the meats from your usual supermarket?*
> I read on here Morrisons chops some of their meats, so you don't have to, and the other supermarket I'd probably use is Asda.


Yep, I just got my stuff from Asda. I used to get it from a proper butchers but felt bad asking them to shop everything, although they didn't really mind. Beware that if you buy supermarket diced beef, some chunks may be too big still. The other thing to note is that Asda sell heart as a heart, where as Morrisons shred theirs before selling.



KoolK said:


> 6. *Also, the horror stories I've read on raw food* (_bacteria, doesn't have enough nutrients _etc).
> Is there anything I need to be wary / mindful of if I go ahead with this?


I jumped right in with it. You can get more support from the Facebook Cat CRAP group, which I am certain will say the recipe in the first post isn't that great. They have a recipe in the files section, but it's a pretty active group. Don't listen to those who say "unless you feed franken pray, there's no point" - not everyone can do that and not everyone's cat likes that.

This is all my opinion though so take everything I write as a guide.
What worked for me won't work for you but it may get you on the road to raw feeding (Y)


----------



## Squares

Hey guys!

I have two 8 month olds that I originally had on raw mixes from Alaska Cat. Cat A ate all types, no problem. Cat B is not keen on turkey and he can't handle the lamb/fish mix.

Leaving out those two types for Cat B I was worried about covering all bases, especially as he's still growing, so I slowly switched them back over to the wet the breeder had them on initially. Big mistake  Cat B seems to have a crazy sensitive stomach, their poos reek and for our own sanity we have to get back on the raw!

My plan is to eventually make my own mixes when we are moving in the near future so I'll probably come back with a thousand questions at some point!

-----

Anyway, enough rambling! Until I can grind my own mixes and really get stuck in, I'm wondering if this would be an OK setup:


Mainly feeding the Alaska Cat mixes: Chicken, chicken/beef, rabbit and occasionally the turkey (if Cat B will eat it)
Sometimes minced day old chicks from Kiezebrink

Diced supermarket beef

Occasional treat of cooked diced pork and lamb - The only reason I cook these is because I've heard mixed messages about whether they are safe raw.

What about greasy fish? Omega 3?
- As I understand tinned sardines in water would be okay, and if so how often?

And the diced beef or cooked lamb/pork - Would "plain" be enough or should I add a premix? With Felini for example you shouldn't add bones or liver but does that mean in that one meal specifically or just as a general when they'll get bones/liver from other sources? Mind I haven't tried Felini with them, they might not even like it!

(I tried to add the links for easy reference to the specific Alaska mixes and the day old chicks but it wouldn't let me post because it was spam like!)


----------



## Maurey

Squares said:


> What about greasy fish? Omega 3?
> - As I understand tinned sardines in water would be okay, and if so how often?


I feed greasy fish around once a week as a treat , or I add around 5% greasy fish into some of the premixes I feed (mine are fed 3 times a day with a snack of a turkey gizzard or chicken neck if I'm home for lunch, and they'll only get a meal with 5% fish once a day, a 2, maybe 3 times a week - it's important to limit their fish intake). On days they don't get any fish, I add salmon oil into their food. Usually add chum salmon or pink salmon to their premix (ocean caught only), and give either pink salmon, calamari, cod tongue, or cod. I'll only give seafood as a snack on weeks I don't feed premix with fish.



Squares said:


> And the diced beef or cooked lamb/pork - Would "plain" be enough or should I add a premix? With Felini for example you shouldn't add bones or liver but does that mean in that one meal specifically or just as a general when they'll get bones/liver from other sources? Mind I haven't tried Felini with them, they might not even like it!


Anything that isn't nutritionally complete shouldn't constitute more than 10% of the calories your cats eat.
If you use Felini, any meal you feed them with Felini in shouldn't have organ meat (just liver isn't enough for a balanced diet - they need 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ, like brain or kidneys) or bone content.


Squares said:


> I tried to add the links for easy reference to the specific Alaska mixes and the day old chicks but it wouldn't let me post because it was spam like!


 You don't have enough posts on these forums to share links yet - this is to prevent people from creating accounts to spam :>

Alaska cat food isn't all nutritionally complete (some lack secreting organ, and will only have 5% liver), and their ratios are WAY off (25% bone???? What???? Why??? Also they seem to think that any internal organ is secreting organ meat, which is just not the case - heart is a muscle meat, as is stomach and lung )- I'd suggest looking into Purrform if you live in the UK, instead.


----------



## Fionabroadbent

Hi I haven't been online for a long time but would welcome some help. Cookie is still eating a raw diet even though she had most of her teeth removed. I was originally buying a premix from the US, but had to switch to buying TCFeline from Tatzenladen in Germany. I have just gone to order another batch of powder and found that since Brexit (Jan) I can't purchase online and I am having trouble contacting them for a shipping cost.

Is anyone still purchasing TCFeline from Germany ? or is there an alternative as I can't find one. Thank you

Sorry not sure why it hasn't logged me on with my username Cookieandme


----------

