# Is a short haired ragdoll possible



## dagny0823

I posted a similar thread in Cat Chat, but haven't had any answers, only a lot of read and runs, so maybe this is the better spot.

My neighbour just showed me her new Ragdoll kitten. He's a lovely little guy with beautiful markings and these gorgeous pale turquoise eyes, but his fur is short, and I thought that part of the definition of Ragdoll was semi-long hair. Did the poor woman get bamboozled by an unscrupulous BYB, or did she just get a type of Ragdoll I've never heard of?


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## OrientalSlave

Kitten coats can be deceptive. Is he registered? If so I imagine the right coat will develop in time.


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## dagny0823

OrientalSlave said:


> Kitten coats can be deceptive. Is he registered? If so I imagine the right coat will develop in time.


He's about 4 months old now, and not registered. She just bought a "ragdoll" from someone.


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## spid

He's probably not a full ragdoll then.


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## Ingrid25

Yes, thats what I thought too Spid.
Leo's fur was quite short when we bought him home, at 12 weeks but I imagine by 4 months it should be longer by now


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## dagny0823

Well, I feel badly she got ripped off, but as long as he's sweet and healthy I guess it's all fine in the long run. Makes me mad a byb would pass him off as such, but we all know there's a lot of that going around. 

Thanks guys---you confirmed my suspicions.


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## spotty cats

People often seem to wait until afterwards to ask all the questions, like being registered, instead of doing the research first and going through a good breeder. 

Over here Ragdolls (and Bengals) are the in thing, many byb's breeding them and not to the best standards, or doing the required health checks.


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## Lisac27

Ragdolls do seem to come in many shapes and sizes, I have 3, all registered and all different. If the cat isn't registered then its not possible to be 100 percent certain of his pedigree. It's a shame when a registered kitten is not much more expensive than a back yard breeder lookalike. But you get vacs, insurance, HCM checks, health checks etc for just a few extra pounds


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## havoc

> It's a shame when a registered kitten is not much more expensive than a back yard breeder lookalike


BYBs often get away with charging substantially more than decent breeders. There's a type of buyer who honestly believes they've got something extra if they've paid a lot more and nothing will change their mind.


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## katscat555

I was the owner of a Ragdoll until he sadly Died last year at the age of 5 of HCM. 

All the photos i have of him under the age of 6 months look liked he was a short haired cat, when in truth he turned out to be very longhaired.
He didn't look like a proper Ragdoll until he was about six months as his colouring took time to darken also. He was a Seal Point but very light as a youngster.


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## BeauNoir

Also remember that genetic mutations or output of recessive genes happen in every breed of cat and any other animal. Many current breeds of cats were created from genetic mutations of other breeds.

Such as, a friend of the family breeds exotic shorthaired cats, the lineage of her cats goes back to the 70's, all short haired all the way along, 3 years ago she had a litter with 2 long haired exotics in (I wanted one so badly! - imagine explaining to people, this is my longhaired exotic shorthair cat), bred from 2 registered exotic shorthairs. It was a recessive gene that both the mother and father carried and it came out in these 2 kittens.

In the same way, there is a chance that long or semi-long breed cats can carry a recessive short haired gene and by chance, can have short haired kittens.

Although, it is true that if not registered, the likelihood is that the cat is a crossbreed.


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## spid

_In the same way, there is a chance that long or semi-long breed cats can carry a recessive short haired gene and by chance, can have short haired kittens._

UNfortunately this is false.
The thing is the short haired gene isn't recessive - it's dominant. Yes, short haired cats can carry long haired genes as recessive and produce those long haired cats. However in order to be longhaired you HAVE to have TWO long haired genes (these is no room to carry a short hair gene as well - and even if you did it would be expressed and the cat would be short haired. (genes come in pairs). So if this cat remains short haired and didn't drop his kitten coat as a wee baby then he is most likely a cross breed as you stated. It's just you can't 'carry' short hair as a recessive.


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## sharonbee

Some are more longhaired than others, kittens coats can look fairly short but as they develop their coat will grow and their ruff becomes more flowing. 

Our Isak is an NFC from a very good Breeder but even he isn't quite as longhaired as some you see at the shows.

Our Bianca is a Persian pedigreed and registered but she has the open face rather than squashed and again her coat isn't as long and as flowing as the ones you see at the shows.


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## BeauNoir

spid said:


> _In the same way, there is a chance that long or semi-long breed cats can carry a recessive short haired gene and by chance, can have short haired kittens._
> 
> UNfortunately this is false.
> The thing is the short haired gene isn't recessive - it's dominant. Yes, short haired cats can carry long haired genes as recessive and produce those long haired cats. However in order to be longhaired you HAVE to have TWO long haired genes (these is no room to carry a short hair gene as well - and even if you did it would be expressed and the cat would be short haired. (genes come in pairs). So if this cat remains short haired and didn't drop his kitten coat as a wee baby then he is most likely a cross breed as you stated. It's just you can't 'carry' short hair as a recessive.


I'm afraid cat coat genetics are not that simple. A recessive shorthair gene has already been found in Persians and therefore any breed that was Persian mixed to be created, such as the ragdoll, can also carry this rare gene.

As I said before, it isn't likely, but there is a chance.


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## OrientalSlave

It has? Do you have a reference please?


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## Soupie

BeauNoir said:


> I'm afraid cat coat genetics are not that simple. A recessive shorthair gene has already been found in Persians and therefore any breed that was Persian mixed to be created, such as the ragdoll, can also carry this rare gene.
> 
> As I said before, it isn't likely, but there is a chance.


Really - please quote your source as I find it very hard to believe.


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## OrientalSlave

I found a mention of this on Wikipedia (in Silver Persians) but with no reference. So, a good reference would be great.


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## spid

I would like references too. I'm not going to abandon hard learnt genetics facts on the basis of one mention on a pet forum board.


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## Soupie

Well I've found reference to the mating of a shorthaired cat to a longhaired cat producing kittens which were shorthaired proving the longhaired carried the rare recessive shorthair gene. What claptrap. The kittens were shorthaired as shorthair is dominant


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## spid

Oh wow - a rare recessive short haired DOMINANT gene! lol!


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## OrientalSlave

I found a mention of this on Wikipedia (in Silver Persians) but with no reference. So, a good reference would be great.


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## havoc

I agree a proper reference would be most helpful. There is one sentence claiming this in a very general publication with no further background.


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## OrientalSlave

Found the following which IMHO suggests that whoever wrote it doesn't understand coat length genetics:

On Exhibition - All Breeds Cat Club


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## havoc

This seems a bit like those situations where eye witnesses make up stuff to fill in the gaps. It's a well known syndrome and I can quite see how someone would decide the short hair gene is recessive to explain exotics.


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## OrientalSlave

Sort of like the breeder's website I found years ago that their Siamese carried Oriental! The tell-tale of course is that two Orientals can produce Siamese and two Exotics can produce a Persian. Not all Orientals / Exotics of course, not all Orientals carry the pointed gene and not all Exotics carry longhair.


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## spid

So the exotic is a short hair - yes? and the chinchilla part is just the colour? 

SO they mated a longhaired to a short haired and got short haired kittens and decided that was a recessive short hair gene? 

Have I got that right? (sorry not up on exotics etc)

Are they bonkers!?


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## OrientalSlave

Obviously whoever wrote the page I referenced was 'bonkers' but I don't know if that's the only source for this alleged recessive shorthair. There are suggestions that two PERSIANS have produced a shorthair kitten. Now that would be interesting assuming it wasn't really an 'oops' litter. Of course the mutated longhair gene might simply have mutated back to shorthair... Or one of the cats could be a chimera if from an Exotic / Persian mating and breed as an Exotic despite it's appearance.


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## catlove844

I just asked my friend who is a ragdoll breeder and she said:

'no' lol 

basically:

2 longhairs breed & create all long hair kittens

2 shorthairs breeder (who Dont carry LH gene) create shorthair kittens

1 long hair & 1 shorthair breed (who doesnt carry LH gene) creates all shorthaired kittens which half will carry the LH gene.

2 shorthairs breed who carry the longhair gene and 50% longhair litters.

so unless it has paperwork its a moggie, and no you cant get a shorthaired ragdoll! 

hope this helps!


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## OrientalSlave

catlove844 said:


> <snip>
> 2 shorthairs breed who carry the longhair gene and 50% longhair litters.
> <snip>


Not quite. On average (and the average fairy plays lots of silly games) they produce 25% shorhair not carrying LH, 50% shorthair carrying LH and 25% longhair.

The rest were all correct, on average.


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## dagny0823

catlove844 said:


> I just asked my friend who is a ragdoll breeder and she said:
> 
> 'no' lol
> 
> basically:
> 
> 2 longhairs breed & create all long hair kittens
> 
> 2 shorthairs breeder (who Dont carry LH gene) create shorthair kittens
> 
> 1 long hair & 1 shorthair breed (who doesnt carry LH gene) creates all shorthaired kittens which half will carry the LH gene.
> 
> 2 shorthairs breed who carry the longhair gene and 50% longhair litters.
> 
> so unless it has paperwork its a moggie, and no you cant get a shorthaired ragdoll!
> 
> hope this helps!


Thanks for that and thanks to everyone who weighed in. I thought that was the case (but I didn't know all the genetics behind it) and I was mostly just curious. I worry that the kitten's parents were never health tested and all that goes along with responsible breeding. And of course that my neighbour probably just paid far too much to a byb for a moggy. But he is a very pretty little kitten and he's got a nice temperament---he's not especially floppy, more very energetic and an enthusiastic climber, which makes me wonder what at all he is--maybe Siamese x Raggie?


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## OrientalSlave

(edited to add)
*In my view *
(end edit)

it's mostly marketing puff that Raggies are floppy. The worst bite I ever saw anyone get at a cat show was from a Ragdoll. Nothing floppy about that one...

Who knows what the cat's origins are, expect that both parents were colourpoint or carried colourpoint?


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## Lisac27

Ragdolls are floppy, they do indeed flop when picked up. But this is very individual and varies from cat to cat. Some are very aggressive, I think this depends on socialisation and personality. Most are lovely and sweet.
The fact that a young kitten doesn't flop doesn't mean they won't, as kittens they are still little terrors and will climb your curtains and use your toes as a chewing toy


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## spotty cats

OrientalSlave said:


> it's mostly marketing puff that Raggies are floppy.


Know some Birman breeders who claim Birmans are floppier, and that Raggies just marketed it better.


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