# Puppy bought, kennels did not disclose small hernia



## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Hello, just as the title reads, the kennels, despite having him health checked beforehand, did not disclose he has a small hernia. We took him to the Vet today and she said that he’ll probably require it to be removed when spayed/neutered. 

As this was a Kennels, and a place of business, under Consumer Rights Law we were mis-sold. What would be the correct resolution? I read another post where a someone got £500 money back and the Vet costs covered. Is it acceptable to ask for similar?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

How long have you had the pup, and is it an inguinal or umbilical hernia?
Small umbilical hernias, where a bit of fat has come through but not intestines, are no big deal and easily fixed. A puppy I bred had one, I kept her and had it tidied up when she was spayed; she had the keyhole spay and it was used as one of the ports. When buying my recent puppy, I checked her over for hernias when examining her, selecting one of the litter.
Did your vet give a cost estimate? You could try for £500 I suppose but my bitch's spay and hernia repair came to less than that all in (in 2020), and you want vet costs as well? 
If it's an inguinal hernia, they are potentially more serious, but as your vet said it could be sorted out when the dog was neutered, they aren't indicating any urgency so you may well be basing your amounts on a more serious case.
If you feel the pup was mis-sold, you may wish to return him for a full refund.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Burrowzig said:


> How long have you had the pup, and is it an inguinal or umbilical hernia?
> Small umbilical hernias, where a bit of fat has come through but not intestines, are no big deal and easily fixed. A puppy I bred had one, I kept her and had it tidied up when she was spayed; she had the keyhole spay and it was used as one of the ports. When buying my recent puppy, I checked her over for hernias when examining her, selecting one of the litter.
> Did your vet give a cost estimate? You could try for £500 I suppose but my bitch's spay and hernia repair came to less than that all in (in 2020), and you want vet costs as well?
> If it's an inguinal hernia, they are potentially more serious, but as your vet said it could be sorted out when the dog was neutered, they aren't indicating any urgency so you may well be basing your amounts on a more serious case.
> If you feel the pup was mis-sold, you may wish to return him for a full refund.


hi, 3 days we've had him. It's an umbilical hernia. As stated, we weren't informed of this at time of purchasing so I think, however 'easy' it is to fix, this was from an actual Kennels, registered business, who would have known about this issue, but did not mention it. I've seen puppies reduced by breeders for having hernias. So I think it's reasonable to ask for money back and vet costs covered from an actual company..


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

When you say Kennels, do you mean the type who sell pups of all different Breeds?


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Rafa said:


> When you say Kennels, do you mean the type who sell pups of all different Breeds?


With the username including 'Morkie' one very much suspects so - and a commercial kennels breeding/selling those, as we know, is most likely a puppy farm outlet where health and ethics are the last thing on the kennel owner's mind; the last place anyone should purchase a puppy from.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> With the username including 'Morkie' one very much suspects so - and a commercial kennels breeding/selling those, as we know, is most likely a puppy farm outlet where health and ethics are the last thing on the kennel owner's mind; the last place anyone should purchase a puppy from.


My first thought was the same, 'kennels' & 'place of business' gave it away, I appreciate that not all breeders who keep their dogs kennelled are bad, but I would expect a 'morkie', being a mix of small, purely companion breeds, to at least be raised raised in the home.

And I'd expect a puppy farm would miss a hernia due to the volume of puppies produced, not a decent breeder who only has one litter at a time.

I don't know much about the legal ramifications of selling 'defective' puppies but I'm guessing if it's a business it's covered by consumer law.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I suspect this ‘company’ would rather offer to exchange the puppy for a less defective one rather then actually refund any money.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Good heavens. You buy a mongrel from a puppy farm and when it has a slight hernia, which is very very common and of no real concern, you expect to get some huge compensation. What sort of world are we living in. You obviously know nothing about dogs anyway - a male dog is not spayed, that is the name for the neutering of females. Just forget about it, enjoy your puppy and when he is castrated get the hernia repaired if it is still visible. Maybe if you get another dog in the future go to a proper breeder not a puppy farm.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Guys and girls, we’re all adults here, there’s no need need to be nasty, with labels like “puppy farm” and “mongrel”. I joined this forum for advice not your negative stereotypes about what you perceive all kennels to be and opinions on crossbreeds. 
Thanks for those who gave us some advice.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Guys and girls, we're all adults here, there's no need need to be nasty, with labels like "puppy farm" and "mongrel". I joined this forum for advice not your negative stereotypes about what you perceive all kennels to be and opinions on crossbreeds.
> Thanks for those who gave us some advice.


The terms 'puppy farm' and mongrel' are not nasty or insulting, unfortunately they are factual.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

SusieRainbow said:


> The terms 'puppy farm' and mongrel' are not nasty or insulting, unfortunately they are factual.


Not all kennels are "puppy farms". So this is not a fact. Calling a dog, a "mongrel", instead of 'crossbreed', is nasty and insulting as it has negative connotations.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Not all kennels are "puppy farms". So this is not a fact. Calling a dog, a "mongrel", instead of 'crossbreed', is nasty and insulting as it has negative connotations.


A dog that is a mix of more than 2 pure breds is a mongrel.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/mongrel


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Not all kennels are "puppy farms". So this is not a fact. Calling a dog, a "mongrel", instead of 'crossbreed', is nasty and insulting as it has negative connotations.


Okay I'll play, what are the negative connotations to mongrel? 
*asking as the owner of a mongrel*

And no, not all kennels are puppy farms as stated by other posters, but a 'morkie' bred in kennels does kind of scream puppy farm, sorry.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

My first dog was a mongrel bought from a pet shop and presumably bred by a very poor breeder. She was lovely but she was a mongrel and she was very poorly bred.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

The term mixed-breed is a favored synonym over mongrel among individuals who wish to avoid negative connotations associated with the latter term.[1]

[1] [2] Witiak, Dr. Gene (2004). True Confessions of a Veterinarian. Glenbridge Publishing Ltd. p. 11. Canines of unknown lineage used to be termed mongrels-how demeaning! Over time, the term 'mixed breed' was preferred.

Unlike mixed-breeds, crossbreed dogs are often the product of artificial selection - intentionally created by humans, whereas the term mongrel specifically refers to dogs that develop by natural selection, without the planned intervention of humans.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> Okay I'll play, what are the negative connotations to mongrel?
> *asking as the owner of a mongrel*
> 
> And no, not all kennels are puppy farms as stated by other posters, but a 'morkie' bred in kennels does kind of scream puppy farm, sorry.


It's used in the same way as the word mutt, and, like mutt, can be negative or ironically affectionate. Even when it's applied to a person without regard to race, mongrel can still carry racist connotations, namely the implication that such a person's behavior is like that of people whom racists consider inferior.


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## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

SusieRainbow said:


> A dog that is a mix of more than 2 pure breds is a mongrel.
> 
> https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/mongrel


Isn`t a Morkie a Maltese x Yorkshire terrier? I have no problem with mongrel at all, my current dog is a mongrel I know what his mother was but no idea on father, but I don`t have problem with crossbreed either.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> And no, not all kennels are puppy farms as stated by other posters, but a 'morkie' bred in kennels does kind of scream puppy farm, sorry.


Aside from the fact you don't know for a fact our Morkie was bred from a "puppy farm", my response was in relation to SusieRainbow stating as fact that all kennels are "puppy farms".


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Do you know if the parents of your puppy had health tests relevant to the breed? These are specific health tests as opposed to health check which is check over at the vets


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious Did you just use wikipedia to prove your point?



BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Unlike mixed-breeds, crossbreed dogs are often the product of artificial selection - intentionally created by humans, whereas the term mongrel specifically refers to dogs that develop by natural selection, without the planned intervention of humans.


Is it just me, or does this make mongrel sound more appealing than crossbreed?



BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> It's used in the same way as the word mutt, and, like mutt, can be negative or ironically affectionate. Even when it's applied to a person without regard to race, mongrel can still carry racist connotations, namely the implication that such a person's behavior is like that of people whom racists consider inferior.


Oh please! Wind yer neck in 
I called my dog of unknown parentage a muttdog his entire life. He had multiple obedience and rally titles, did all sorts of demos and work in the public eye, was a phenomenal dog, but he was a total mutt, mongrel, side-of-the-road special.

My current mutt I call a swamprat and methpuppy she's also a total mongrel of unknown parentage. There is nothing at all demeaning or insulting about calling a dog a mutt - unless of course you're a breed snob 

Listen, ubilical hernias are no big deal. He'll have it repaired when he's castrated, don't stress.
It's not worth the money IMO, though you may want to consider reporting the place you got him from as it likely really is a puppyfarm and you could do some good by alerting the relevant authorities to it. 
Then please read up on here why so many of us get annoyed when people buy their dogs without doing proper research - ie: more than a quick google and a few wikipedia hits.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Siskin said:


> Do you know if the parents of your puppy had health tests relevant to the breed? These are specific health tests as opposed to health check which is check over at the vets


No, we do not know if the parents had health tests. I would have to enquire with the kennels about that.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Aside from the fact you don't know for a fact our Morkie was bred from a "puppy farm", my response was in relation to SusieRainbow stating as fact that all kennels are "puppy farms".


Erm... @SusieRainbow has posted on this thread exactly twice. And the only mention of puppy farm was that it's not insulting. No where has she said that all kennels are puppy farms. No one has stated that.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Aside from the fact you don't know for a fact our Morkie was bred from a "puppy farm", my response was in relation to SusieRainbow stating as fact that all kennels are "puppy farms".


But they more or less are. No good breeder has a 'kennel'. They breed from select dogs of one or at the most two breeds that they show and carefully choose blood lines. They do not breed mongrels, cross breeds or mutts and give them a made up name to boost the price. Unfortunately the fashion for believing that the bigger the breeder the better they are and the more crosses they produce the better they are and the more ridiculous names and prices make them better too. Tell us more about the kennel your pup came from and then maybe we can apologise and tell you they are not a puppy farm. But as I said it is very very unlikely. It does not make the pup you have bought any less precious to you but already you have run into a problem and more could rear their head later on. Lots of us on here have or do own mongrels, we see nothing wrong with them but I doubt if anyone went to a 'kennel' and paid lots of money for one or expected a refund when it was not the perfect specimen.
Just love your pup for what he is!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Aside from the fact you don't know for a fact our Morkie was bred from a "puppy farm",


Call it an intelligent guess. 
I'll tell you what. You tell me the name of these kennels you got your morkie from, and if they're a responsible, ethical breeder, I'll make a $100 donation to the rescue of your choice, and I will apologize to you and your morkie


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

:Brb


O2.0 said:


> :Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious:Hilarious Did you just use wikipedia to prove your point?
> 
> Is it just me, or does this make mongrel sound more appealing than crossbreed?
> 
> ...


No, I used a citation from a book, published by Dr Gene Witiak, a veterinarian with more than 54 years, who has published articles for the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, to prove my point and he knows a damn sight more than an ignorant person like you. 

You're one of those politically incorrect types, calling a dog a "swamp rat" "meth puppy", just exemplifies the kind of person you are. You shouldn't be allowed to own dogs with a mindset like that. I can't even imagine what derogatory terms you refer to people of race, gender, disabilities etc. :Wideyed :Spitoutdummy:Spitoutdummy


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> No, we do not know if the parents had health tests. I would have to enquire with the kennels about that.


I would be interested to know their reply, it's important that you buy a puppy from breeders that do as much as possible to ensure their dogs are producing healthy puppies. Did you know for instance that there is an inheritable element to hernias?


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> IMO, though you may want to consider reporting the place you got him from as it likely really is a puppyfarm and you could do some good by alerting the relevant authorities to it.
> Then please read up on here why so many of us get annoyed when people buy their dogs without doing proper research - ie: more than a quick google and a few wikipedia hits.


"Most likely", quite a few of you on here do jump to conclusions and make a lot of assumptions.

So you jump down every persons throat without knowing the facts? Do you know how much research we did? No. Again, another wild assumption. The Kennels we bought him from are a fully licensed legitimate breeder of purebreed, mixed-breed, and re-homing puppies.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Oh please mods don't close this, this is going to be good!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> The Kennels we bought him from are a fully licensed legitimate breeder of purebreed, mixed-breed, and re-homing puppies.


Yeah... That still screams puppy farm. Even more so now. 
Care to share the name of the place and prove me wrong?


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Unfortunately this is the issue with licenced puppy farms, people think they're not one just because the council has approved it.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Blitz said:


> But they more or less are. No good breeder has a 'kennel'. They breed from select dogs of one or at the most two breeds that they show and carefully choose blood lines. They do not breed mongrels, cross breeds or mutts and give them a made up name to boost the price. Unfortunately the fashion for believing that the bigger the breeder the better they are and the more crosses they produce the better they are and the more ridiculous names and prices make them better too. Tell us more about the kennel your pup came from and then maybe we can apologise and tell you they are not a puppy farm. But as I said it is very very unlikely. It does not make the pup you have bought any less precious to you but already you have run into a problem and more could rear their head later on. Lots of us on here have or do own mongrels, we see nothing wrong with them but I doubt if anyone went to a 'kennel' and paid lots of money for one or expected a refund when it was not the perfect specimen.
> Just love your pup for what he is!


"More or less" isn't a fact. Did any of you go to school and get an education or do you not know what the word fact means. Has it been proven true, without any doubt whatsoever that every kennels in this country is a "puppy farm"? Hint, the answer is no….

Breeders can breed 3+ litters in a year (no limit in law), so it can be argued that there is just as much right labelling a number of breeders as "puppy farms", as they get 100% of the profit, whereas kennels, from their proceeds, pay to keep the lights on, look after all the dogs/puppies, pay staff, rent/lease the the building, if they don't own it etc.

You don't think breeders 'boost the price'??

There are plenty of irresponsible breeders in this country.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Personal and insulting comments of this nature are not acceptable.


BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> You're one of those politically incorrect types, calling a dog a "swamp rat" "meth puppy", just exemplifies the kind of person you are. You shouldn't be allowed to own dogs with a mindset like that. I can't even imagine what derogatory terms you refer to people of race, gender, disabilities etc. :Wideyed :Spitoutdummy:Spitoutdummy


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> Yeah... That still screams puppy farm. Even more so now.
> Care to share the name of the place and prove me wrong?


So please, enlighten us, what makes it not a "puppy farm" then?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

SusieRainbow said:


> Personal and insulting comments of this nature are not acceptable.


Oh Susie, I don't mind this one bit. Gave me a good laugh really as those who know, know how funny this really is. And those who don't know, well, we can't fault their ignorance can we? 

Speaking of ignorance, 
@BJ'sMorkiePup there are several threads in the breeding section on how to find a good breeder and what to look for in a good breeder. It's really worth taking a minute to read them.

I know you're feeling a bit attacked right now, you're not being attacked but it's not nice to have to consider you may have been duped by a puppy farm. Take a few breaths and read up on those threads. They explain all of this very well.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

SusieRainbow said:


> Personal and insulting comments of this nature are not acceptable.


Of this nature? I've labelled him politically incorrect and can't imagine what he calls people of race, gender and disability…Deary me, who put this person as Moderator if they can't differentiate between levels of 'personal' and 'insulting' comments.

Yet it's acceptable to be personal and, quite frankly disgusting, about dogs, on a pet forum, referring to our dog as a mongrel, which we (and a lot of people find) as a derogatory term for cross-breed/mixed breed dogs, and calling these kind of dogs, "swamp rat" and "meth puppy"?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> So please, enlighten us, what makes it not a "puppy farm" then?


You want health testing as a very bare minimum. That's not a once-over by the vet, but specific tests relevant to that breed and then those tests should be published on a searchable public database.

Most ethical breeders breed just one breed because they have spent years learning about that breed, its traits and structure. They look for the best complimentary dogs to breed, based on thorough pedigree research. All of that takes years to learn, it's hard to do with more than one breed. Not that it's not done, just not as common.

A good breeder also shows, trials or does something with their dog where the dog will be evaluated by an independent party. Again, this is easier to do with just one breed.

Just a few things to start....

Oh and,


BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> I've labelled *him* politically incorrect


Did you just assume my gender?
I thought that was considered politically incorrect these days.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

You might find this useful reading.

https://www.pdsa.org.uk/pet-help-an...-pet/puppies-dogs/could-you-spot-a-puppy-farm

You have been issued a warning.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> Oh Susie, I don't mind this one bit. Gave me a good laugh really as those who know, know how funny this really is. And those who don't know, well, we can't fault their ignorance can we?
> 
> Speaking of ignorance,
> @BJ'sMorkiePup there are several threads in the breeding section on how to find a good breeder and what to look for in a good breeder. It's really worth taking a minute to read them.
> ...


Aw bless, you and 'Susie' internet pals? Those who know, know? You mean the ignorant people like you that calls crossbreed dogs "Meth puppy" and "swamp rat"?

We're not feeling attacked at all. We're actually sitting here reading your posts and feeling sad for you that you live with such a mindset of calling dogs such derogatory names. It's indicative of your character.

We're still waiting for you to tell us how we discern it's not a "puppy farm"???


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Of this nature? I've labelled him politically incorrect and can't imagine what he calls people of race, gender and disability…Deary me, who put this person as Moderator if they can't differentiate between levels of 'personal' and 'insulting' comments.
> 
> Yet it's acceptable to be personal and, quite frankly disgusting, about dogs, on a pet forum, referring to our dog as a mongrel, which we (and a lot of people find) as a derogatory term for cross-breed/mixed breed dogs, and calling these kind of dogs, "swamp rat" and "meth puppy"?


I love my dogs and most creatures in general but I call them far worse than O2.0, I also have crossbreeds that I call mutts and mongrels, I hope you remove the stick before you sit down :Wideyed

Also political correctness also feeds into not assuming gender  Poor @O2.0 being masculated


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Aw bless, you and 'Susie' internet pals? Those who know, know? You mean the ignorant people like you that calls crossbreed dogs "Meth puppy" and "swamp rat"?
> 
> We're not feeling attacked at all. We're actually sitting here reading your posts and feeling sad for you that you live with such a mindset of calling dogs such derogatory names. It's indicative of your character.
> 
> We're still waiting for you to tell us how we discern it's not a "puppy farm"???


Did you not read my last post?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> We're still waiting for you to tell us how we discern it's not a "puppy farm"???


See post #36

As for my swamprat methpuppy, I'll let you decide for yourself if she's better off with someone who calls her a mongrel swamprat who looks like she was put together from spare dog parts or where she was before.
https://www.instagram.com/batesnpenny2020/


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> You want health testing as a very bare minimum. That's not a once-over by the vet, but specific tests relevant to that breed and then those tests should be published on a searchable public database.
> 
> Most ethical breeders breed just one breed because they have spent years learning about that breed, its traits and structure. They look for the best complimentary dogs to breed, based on thorough pedigree research. All of that takes years to learn, it's hard to do with more than one breed. Not that it's not done, just not as common.
> 
> ...





O2.0 said:


> You want health testing as a very bare minimum. That's not a once-over by the vet, but specific tests relevant to that breed and then those tests should be published on a searchable public database.
> 
> Most ethical breeders breed just one breed because they have spent years learning about that breed, its traits and structure. They look for the best complimentary dogs to breed, based on thorough pedigree research. All of that takes years to learn, it's hard to do with more than one breed. Not that it's not done, just not as common.
> 
> ...


And as stated above, in response to poster Siskin, who has been nice and helpful from the beginning, unlike some people……we are going to query the health tests with the kennels.

Also, as stated above, there are plenty of irresponsible breeders, who breed in unclean environments and equally, do not care about the health of the puppies. Breeding is a huge cash cow and even 'licensed breeders' are mainly in it for the money.

As for assuming you're a 'him', that was our mistake, apologies. It's a shame you're not willing (and from conversations with you we know you won't) take back your political incorrectness on "mongrels" and feel bad for calling them a "meth puppy" or "swamp rat".


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> With the username including 'Morkie' one very much suspects so - and a commercial kennels breeding/selling those, as we know, is most likely a puppy farm outlet where health and ethics are the last thing on the kennel owner's mind; the last place anyone should purchase a puppy from.


My thoughts exactly.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

SusieRainbow said:


> Did you not read my last post?


Did you not read out last post in response?


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

SusieRainbow said:


> You might find this useful reading.
> 
> https://www.pdsa.org.uk/pet-help-an...-pet/puppies-dogs/could-you-spot-a-puppy-farm
> 
> You have been issued a warning.


Oh no, not a warning….

Did you miss where o2.0 called us a 'breed snob'? Or do "personal and insulting comments of that nature", not extend to a warning for your internet pals??


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

Why don't you just name the place you bought your pup from? I don't understand all this defensiveness over the kennels, especially as you are concerned about the hernia. 
I know you don't want your dog to have come from a puppy farm, but the reality is it might have done as they can be quite sneaky about disguising how many bitches and puppies they have.
In regards to the hernia best thing to do is ask the breeder. They may offer you a refund with return of the pup, possibly pay cost of hernia repair, but check your puppy contract (you did get given a contract right?) as this will probably have some info for you about what to do in case of ill health. It may be covered under you pup's insurance (this generally comes with a puppy too) so check that out. It is likely just a simple operation that can be done either at the time of neutering or earlier if you wish.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Rafa said:


> My thoughts exactly.


Plenty of irresponsible breeders out there with no care for health and ethics either…


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Sarah H said:


> Why don't you just name the place you bought your pup from?


My offer still stands, I will be making a $100 donation, I'm happy to make it to the rescue of OP's choosing if they name the kennel and we're all wrong about it being a puppy farm.



BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Did you miss where o2.0 called us a 'breed snob'?


I said *unless* you're a breed snob.
Who is this us/we anyway?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> So please, enlighten us, what makes it not a "puppy farm" then?


I'll tell you.

I used to breed, one Breed only, PRTs, and I bred a litter when I wanted to keep a pup to show.

The rest of the litter I did sell to Owners I had thoroughly vetted, met several times, observed handling my pups and questioned thoroughly about their reasons for wanting one of my puppies.

I did not sell a pup to anyone who rocked up with the appropriate amount of cash and then watch someone who was a stranger to me drive off into the unknown.

My pups went with pedigree and K. C. Registration form, (not relevant to you), together with bedding smelling of Mum and littermates and a diet/factsheet, with details of worming, what the pups had been weaned onto, etc., and my phone number. I asked new owners to keep in touch and to return the puppy/dog to me if ever they were not in a position to keep it.

Puppy farms/Kennels are those who breed pups, any type of pup they think will sell, and peddle to them to simply anyone.

That is not conscientious breeding by a mile, so of course these places will sell puppies with health problems and have no qualms about that.

We on this forum have heard so many tales of woe from those who have bought from such places and wound up with an unhealthy pup who is costing a fortune in Vets' fees.

I would imagine your chances of getting compensation from such people are next to nil. I very much doubt anyone even noticed your puppy had a hernia.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Sarah H said:


> Why don't you just name the place you bought your pup from? I don't understand all this defensiveness over the kennels, especially as you are concerned about the hernia.
> I know you don't want your dog to have come from a puppy farm, but the reality is it might have done as they can be quite sneaky about disguising how many bitches and puppies they have.
> In regards to the hernia best thing to do is ask the breeder. They may offer you a refund with return of the pup, possibly pay cost of hernia repair, but check your puppy contract (you did get given a contract right?) as this will probably have some info for you about what to do in case of ill health. It may be covered under you pup's insurance (this generally comes with a puppy too) so check that out. It is likely just a simple operation that can be done either at the time of neutering or earlier if you wish.


You must be joking, right? Defensiveness over kennels? Lol :Hilarious We asked for advise on the small hernia and, instead of that, get a number of you 'regular', snobbish posters moving off topic to kennels being "puppy farms" and calling cross breeds "mongrels". And looking at past posts on here it looks like it is littered with the same snobbery from the majority of you when the word "kennels" or a topic involving a cross-breed is posted. It's seems it's caused a lot of people to ask for their accounts to be deleted as they don't want to be part of such a forum.

We only care about his small hernia, we did not take it down this rabbit hole. You guys did and you're repeat offenders. :Hilarious


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> we are going to query the health tests with the kennels.


That should have been provided before purchase. And would have been, by any ethical responsible breeder.



BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> "Most likely", quite a few of you on here do jump to conclusions and make a lot of assumptions.
> 
> So you jump down every persons throat without knowing the facts? Do you know how much research we did? No. Again, another wild assumption. The Kennels we bought him from are a fully licensed legitimate breeder of purebreed, mixed-breed, and re-homing puppies.


If you had actually done proper research you would already know if the relevant health tests were done on the parents. So it's easy to guess how much (or little) research you did.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> You must be joking, right? Defensiveness over kennels? Lol :Hilarious We asked for advise on the small hernia and, instead of that, get a number of you 'regular', snobbish posters moving off topic to kennels being "puppy farms" and calling cross breeds "mongrels". And looking at past posts on here it looks like it is littered with the same snobbery from the majority of you when the word "kennels" or a topic involving a cross-breed is posted. It's seems it's caused a lot of people to ask for their accounts to be deleted as they don't want to be part of such a forum.
> 
> We only care about his small hernia, we did not take it down this rabbit hole. You guys did and you're repeat offenders. :Hilarious


But you didn't "just" ask about the hernia. You asked about getting money back from the "breeder". Which is when it was pointed out to you that it is highly unlikely, since it is most likely you bought from a puppy farm who doesn't care about the health of the dog, only about  getting your money.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Given my ancient age crossbreed is actually a more recent term for a dog that’s not from parents of the same breed. I’ve always known them as mongrels and to be honest I’m not sure what the problem is and why it’s now become a derogatory term.


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## MontyMaude (Feb 23, 2012)

Did your puppy see a vet for a vet check and vaccination and microchip before you collected them as it should have been noted in the records that there was a hernia, I brought a dog many years ago from reputable breeders that had a hernia it was pointed out to me when we first went to choose the puppy and I was updated on the status of it up until we collected the dog, this was before dogs were meant to be vaccinated and chipped before sold, but they were a well known reputable KC reg breeder of pedigree dogs.

Also did you not notice when handling the pup before you brought it and giving it a quick once over yourself?


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

You do realise that O2.0 is referring to _her own_ dog as methpuppy and swamp rat, not dogs as a whole... right?
You do also realise that there's a huge difference between referring to mongrel dogs as mongels and actual RACISM, right??

Gee whiz.
You bought a puppy with a hernia from a licensed kennel (which you referred to yourself as a place of business) that produces multiple different breeds and crossbreed. You bought your dog from a puppy farm.
Not all puppy farms are the filthy dark sheds that you see on the news - in fact, plenty of them are going to be sparkly clean and put up a good front so folks who don't know any better (or care?) are happy to hand over money.

The issue with these places is that they breed large numbers of dogs solely for profit.
No regards to temperament, health or the welfare of any of the dogs in their care.
Ethical breeders typically don't have staff to pay or premesis to rent...


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

lorilu said:


> That should have been provided before purchase. And would have been, by any ethical responsible breeder.


As stated, we need to check with the kennels as they sent documents by email and gave us lots of documents too.

Also, as stated, there are plenty of unethical breeders. But of course you 'breeder fan boys and girls' don't talk about to that..



> If you had actually done proper research you would already know if the relevant health tests were done on the parents. So it's easy to guess how much (or little) research you did.


It's our very first puppy, sorry if we didn't tick everything off the list, Miss Perfect over here. 
As stated, we need to go through all the documents. But, once again, thanks to another long term poster on this forum being unhelpful and snobbish….

Let me guess, you're a breeder? Or you're like others and look down on cross breeds?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Let me guess, you're a breeder? Or you're like others and look down on cross breeds?


I am neither a breeder nor do I care about mongrel or pure bred either one.



BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> It's our very first puppy, sorry if we didn't tick everything off the list,


Well, that's your problem. Seems like if you are claiming to have done all this research, you would have checked everytihg off and read the documents you were sent, before handing over your money.



BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> As stated, we need to check with the kennels as they sent documents by email and gave us lots of documents too.
> 
> Also, as stated, there are plenty of unethical breeders. But of course you 'breeder fan boys and girls' don't talk about to that..


Of course there are plenty of unethical breeders. That is exactly what you have been told in this thread. What on earth are you so bent about? You bought a puppy from a puppy farm, and the puppy isn't perfect. You think you should have some of your money back plus have the vet bills paid. You've been told this is unlikely, especially since you didn't bother to even read the documents you were provided with.

Just enjoy your puppy and hope there isn't worse to come down the line with his health.

You've been had. Chalk it up to experience, and get over it.

.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Also, as stated, there are plenty of unethical breeders. But of course you 'breeder fan boys and girls' don't talk about to that..


Indeed we do talk about both good breeders and bad breeders. Anyone who allows his bitch to have pups is a breeder, putting the dog and bitch together to produce cute puppies. Bad breeders dont health test for inheritable conditions, research the temperaments of both parents and their ancestry, socialise the pups and get them vaccinated , flead and wormed.
We on this forum support ethical breeding where all steps are taken to produce healthy pups with good temperaments. This type of breeder rarely makes a profit, is usually well out of pocket, by the time they've increased the bitch's food, taken time off work to look after mum and pups, turned up the heating, bought all the ncessary paraphernalia and reared the pups to 8weeks before rehoming.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> You must be joking, right? Defensiveness over kennels? Lol :Hilarious We asked for advise on the small hernia and, instead of that, get a number of you 'regular', snobbish posters moving off topic to kennels being "puppy farms" and calling cross breeds "mongrels". And looking at past posts on here it looks like it is littered with the same snobbery from the majority of you when the word "kennels" or a topic involving a cross-breed is posted. It's seems it's caused a lot of people to ask for their accounts to be deleted as they don't want to be part of such a forum.
> 
> We only care about his small hernia, we did not take it down this rabbit hole. You guys did and you're repeat offenders. :Hilarious


This was my first post in your thread, and I answered your questions. It's you being rude and making assumptions. All my dogs are rescues/rehomes from people who clearly bought their dogs from unethical breeders as ethical breeders are pretty strict on who they sell their pups to and would always have their dogs back, no matter the problem the new owners have with them. Two of my dogs are mutts/mongrels/mixed breeds (whatever term you want to use), and I have no issue with crossbreeds or mixed breeds (or pure breeds) as long as they have been bred ethically.



BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> ...
> It's our very first puppy, sorry if we didn't tick everything off the list, Miss Perfect over here.
> As stated, we need to go through all the documents. But, once again, thanks to another long term poster on this forum being unhelpful and snobbish….


As it's your first puppy maybe you should actually listen to people on this forum who have a lot more experience than you with breeders, breeding, health issues etc, rather than assume they are attacking you. They aren't. They (we) just get upset when people buy from unethical breeders or glorified puppy farms as it's ALWAYS the dogs (and the new owners if they have health and temperament issues) that suffer.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

So what I'm taking from this is that calling my dogs (who really couldn't give a rat's furry booty what they're called) mongrels is offensive to them?

It's puplitical correctness gone mad!


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

lorilu said:


> But you didn't "just" ask about the hernia. You asked about getting money back from the "breeder". Which is when it was pointed out to you that it is highly unlikely, since it is most likely you bought from a puppy farm who doesn't care about the health of the dog, only about getting your money.


I asked about getting money back/vet bills paid from a registered business under consumer rights law. it wasn't "just" pointed out to me that it was a puppy farm and I was unlikely to get money back. Several posters went down the road of bringing up "puppy farms" and "cross breeds", almost chomping at the bit to yalk about their favourite subject. Poster Rafa said, "When you say Kennels, do you mean the type who sell pups of all different Breeds?", and by looking at his past posts he's done the same to other owners of crossbreed owners and people who have bought from kennels. 
Burrowzog then responded with, "With the username including 'Morkie' one very much suspects so - and a commercial kennels breeding/selling those, as we know, is most likely a puppy farm outlet where health and ethics are the last thing on the kennel owner's mind; the last place anyone should purchase a puppy from." very much steering the conversation away from my original post and asking for advice on a small hernia and could we get money back/vet bills paid. 
so you're talking absolute nonsense. It's clear the regular posters on here have a set in stone view that all kennels are "puppy farms", so they hear 'kennels' and go with that narrative. I have no doubt there are "puppy farms" out there, but not all of them are ones. Equally, there are many irresponsible breeders that churn out puppies as the law doesn't limit them to how many litters they have and they keep 100% of the profits, but I suspect the regular posters, some if not most on here being breeders by the looks of it, don't like to hear that side.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

Sarah H said:


> This was my first post in your thread, and I answered your questions. It's you being rude and making assumptions. All my dogs are rescues/rehomes from people who clearly bought their dogs from unethical breeders as ethical breeders are pretty strict on who they sell their pups to and would always have their dogs back, no matter the problem the new owners have with them. Two of my dogs are mutts/mongrels/mixed breeds (whatever term you want to use), and I have no issue with crossbreeds or mixed breeds (or pure breeds) as long as they have been bred ethically.
> 
> As it's your first puppy maybe you should actually listen to people on this forum who have a lot more experience than you with breeders, breeding, health issues etc, rather than assume they are attacking you. They aren't. They (we) just get upset when people buy from unethical breeders or glorified puppy farms as it's ALWAYS the dogs (and the new owners if they have health and temperament issues) that suffer.


So you don't think accusing us of being defensive, and being pushy about naming the kennels is going to illicit a kind a kind response, do you? That, added to the undertones of your post that joins in with your fellow "breeder fanboys and girls" that we've bought from a "puppy farm".

we would be perfectly fine with the advice if we didn't receive a barrage of posters assuming "puppy farm" and talking negatively about crossbreeds. You're the ones with the problem not us. I can see from past posts many of you have been fighting this 'crusade' on this forum for years. We don't care what you think about kennels or crossbreeds. We just care about the small hernia of our puppy and advice on money back/vet bills. Pretty much every person who has responded has jumped to the conclusion it's a "puppy farm", without me saying the name of the kennel and looking down on a 'Morkie' crossbreed as being in an 'unethical and unhealthy' environment, when they still don't have a clue what the name of the kennel is so for a fact don't know the conditions the puppy was bred, and born into. Laughable, it really is.


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

simplysardonic said:


> So what I'm taking from this is that calling my dogs (who really couldn't give a rat's furry booty what they're called) mongrels is offensive to them?
> 
> It's puplitical correctness gone mad!


Are you really that obtuse?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Actually. there are only a few of us on here who have ever bred puppies - all of us with the health and welfare of any dog we bred very much at heart.

Of course there are bad Breeders out there and there are also those who produce vast numbers of puppies, or buy them in from Puppy Farms, and sell them to literally anyone with the money with no regard as to the future of the pups.

You've chosen to be defensive/aggressive about this.

If it suits you to believe you are right, we are all wrong and you have bought your puppy from an ethical and conscientious 'Kennel', then there is really no more to be said.

I hope you find a solution to the problem you are already having with your puppy.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> very much steering the conversation away from my original post and asking for advice on a small hernia and could we get money back/vet bills paid


You seem to have overlooked the fact that I DID respond to your initial post about the treatment of your puppy, and that the compensation you were suggesting was not in proportion to the likely cost of treatment.
For what it's worth, I have nothing against cross-breeds or mongrels (and I do see a distinction between them) - of the 5 dogs I've owned, 3 have been crosses and the others a breed 'not recognised' by the KC. 
You could try your luck with trading standards, but it is a case of buyer beware. Unfortunately, before you know what research needs doing when looking to buy a puppy it's easy to get sucked into going to a commercial kennels; some articles in the press advise buyers to look for a licensed breeder, but that really does mean someone producing puppies in quantities over the minimum for which a licence is required by law, so not someone breeding the best dogs or keeping to the highest ethical standards.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Okay now you're assuming Rafa's gender...

Seriously @BJ'sMorkiePup, what is your primary concern? 
Are you worried about getting money back? 
Are you worried about your pup's health?
Are you worried that you may have gotten your pup from a less than reputable breeder and the implications thereof? 
Or are you just annoyed with posters who aren't answering you like you want? 

Umbilical hernias are no big deal, your pup will be fine. Don't worry there. 
I wouldn't hold your breath about getting any money back. And honestly, the price you pay for your pup is the least amount of money you're going to spend for the next 12, 15 years. 

Best thing to do now is, one, stop arguing with people online and start reading some threads on here. There's the puppy support thread, training threads, all sorts of good info. 
I'm guessing you've already been to the vet, might be work checking that your pup is chipped and the details are correct. 
Enroll in a good puppy class and just enjoy your pup!


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

SusieRainbow said:


> Indeed we do talk about both good breeders and bad breeders. Anyone who allows his bitch to have pups is a breeder, putting the dog and bitch together to produce cute puppies. Bad breeders dont health test for inheritable conditions, research the temperaments of both parents and their ancestry, socialise the pups and get them vaccinated , flead and wormed.
> We on this forum support ethical breeding where all steps are taken to produce healthy pups with good temperaments. This type of breeder rarely makes a profit, is usually well out of pocket, by the time they've increased the bitch's food, taken time off work to look after mum and pups, turned up the heating, bought all the ncessary paraphernalia and reared the pups to 8weeks before rehoming.


So, just now looking on the Kennel Club's website, at a breeder for a dog, 5 in the litter and selling for £2,000 each. That's £10,000 and you think they're hardly making a profit? :Hilarious And this isn't even an example for a rare/expensive pure breed.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> I asked about getting money back/vet bills paid from a *registered business*


Breeding puppies as a business is farming them.
_Literally _a puppy farm.

Again, not all puppy farms are dark, dank nightmare shacks caked in feces. Many put on the sparkly show of care and cleanliness to bring people in amd make them hand over their money for less than ideally bred dogs.
_Dogs bred solely for profit._
Even if ethical breeders do make a profit on their litters, that is not what they are breeding for, and certainly not what they are making a living off

Stop being so defensive.
Why are you standing up so aggressively for this business that sold you 'defective goods'?
Are you more concerned about your money than the actual dogs involved at any level?


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> Okay now you're assuming Rafa's gender...


…and you assume that all puppies from kennels are "puppy farms" and call cross breeds "swamp rat" and "meth puppy".

Ypu posted a picture earlier, which we didn't look at, but irrespective of what your cross breed looks like, I, nor any dog owner I know (and we have a few friends with cross breeds) would call their dog that. You're 'supposedly' a dog lover, but if you were out in public and referred to a cross breed as one of those names, your own or someone else's, then you'd get looked at with disgust.

As stated before, we were looking for advice on our puppies small hernia and if we could get money back/vet bills covered. Clearly, this was the wrong place to ask for such advice.

As stated by us, in post #9, 'Guys and girls, we're all adults here, there's no need need to be nasty, with labels like "puppy farm" and "mongrel". I joined this forum for advice not your negative stereotypes about what you perceive all kennels to be and opinions on crossbreeds. 
Thanks for those who gave us some advice."

End of. Take your '20,000 posts, trophies won, member since 2009' asses elsewhere. :Hilarious

We'll enjoy our puppy. Goodnight. :Happy


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> …and you assume that all puppies from kennels are "puppy farms" and call cross breeds "swamp rat" and "meth puppy".
> 
> Ypu posted a picture earlier, which we didn't look at, but irrespective of what your cross breed looks like, I, nor any dog owner I know (and we have a few friends with cross breeds) would call their dog that. You're 'supposedly' a dog lover, but if you were out in public and referred to a cross breed as one of those names, your own or someone else's, then you'd get looked at with disgust.
> 
> ...


Dude... You've got to get over the swamprat thing. I call *my* dog a swamprat. No other dog gets that privilege. I promise she doesn't care what I call her. I also promise she's very loved and lives a great life. I found her semi-feral in coyote country with a broken chain around her neck. Methpuppy is funny because she went from a scared of everything, shut-down dog to the happiest, madder than a box of frogs energizer bunny dog and that makes me and everyone who watched her transformation so very happy. Chill.

Also chill about the hernia. It's not a big deal, your pup will be fine. I had another dog, another rescue (nicknamed puddlemaker later shortened to pudpud) who had an umbilical hernia that we never even bothered to fix it was that minor. Nothing to worry about.

No one is dissing crossbreeds. Plenty of members have mutts, mongerls, crosses and mixes and we love 'em all. I'm sure your pup is a joy. 
The only thing folks are trying to point out, clearly unsuccessfully, is that everything you have posted about this breeder/kennels sounds, well, sus. Lots of red flags, lots of typical backyard breeder/puppy farm tactics.

I've offered real money if I'm wrong. I see you haven't taken me up on that. I'm guessing you know which end is up too


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

BlueJay said:


> Breeding puppies as a business is farming them.
> _Literally _a puppy farm.
> 
> Again, not all puppy farms are dark, dank nightmare shacks caked in feces. Many put on the sparkly show of care and cleanliness to bring people in amd make them hand over their money for less than ideally bred dogs.
> ...





BlueJay said:


> Breeding puppies as a business is farming them.
> _Literally _a puppy farm.
> 
> Again, not all puppy farms are dark, dank nightmare shacks caked in feces. Many put on the sparkly show of care and cleanliness to bring people in amd make them hand over their money for less than ideally bred dogs.
> ...


You don't think breeders treat it as a business? You think they're all in it for the love of the animals and not interested in making profit at all? :Hilarious Oh, how naive. They're not making a living off it but it's a side business, for sure.

We didn't start by being defensive, you lot with your preconceived notions just heard 'kennels' and couldn't wait to jump down our throats and call it a "puppy farm". The narrative was, 'with a username like Morkie it must be from a "puppy farm"….

Also, what was disagreed upon was referring to a cross breed as a mongrel.

All we wanted was advice on a small hernia and if we could get money back/vet bills paid. Our post didn't start on the subject of kennels or cross breeds, you regular, crusader posters steered it that way.

Again, thanks to the few who offered advice without assumptions and negativity. To the others, what exactly have you achieved by responding the way you have? Wouldn't it be more worthwhile putting your efforts into PR, news stories, campaigns etc against "puppy farms" rather than adding to your post counts on a pet forum?


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## BJ’sMorkiePup (Dec 21, 2021)

O2.0 said:


> Dude..


Okay, now you're assuming my gender….



> You've got to get over the swamprat thing. I call *my* dog a swamprat. No other dog gets that privilege. I promise she doesn't care what I call her. I also promise she's very loved and lives a great life. I found her semi-feral in coyote country with a broken chain around her neck. Methpuppy is funny because she went from a scared of everything, shut-down dog to the happiest, madder than a box of frogs energizer bunny dog and that makes me and everyone who watched her transformation so very happy. Chill.


By calling your dog that, along with calling cross breeds "mutts", "mongrels" and "side of the road special", you've got a pretty dim view on cross breeds. I mean, "Meth Puppy", really!? That's just twisted even coming up with a name like that, let alone calling your dog that. I'm sure plenty of dog owners (mind you not on here by the sounds of it) would find it revolting that you refer to your dog as that.

Anyway, we're going round in circles here. Let's agree to disagree. Again, thanks to those that offered advice without the assumptions about where we got him from. We appreciate that you didn't take this off topic. To the rest, good luck with your crusade.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> You don't think breeders treat it as a business? You think they're all in it for the love of the animals and not interested in making profit at all? :Hilarious Oh, how naive. They're not making a living off it but it's a side business, for sure.
> 
> We didn't start by being defensive, you lot with your preconceived notions just heard 'kennels' and couldn't wait to jump down our throats and call it a "puppy farm". The narrative was, 'with a username like Morkie it must be from a "puppy farm"….
> 
> ...


Guess what, champ?
Posting on a public forum, you don't really get a say in who replies to your threads with what.

Maybe somebody will stumble across this thread and actually take what's being said into consideration, instead of thinking everyone else must be driving the wrong way down the motorway.

Mongrel is only an insult if you take it as one. Not one person here (except you) has referred to mongrels in any way negatively.
I also didn't say breeders never made a profit.
If you bothered to read my initial post, you'll see that I said the difference between breeders that should be supported and those that shouldn't is that they do not breed JUST for profit. They focus on health and temperament, breed type or some other purpose (sport, working ability etc).
If they aren't breeding for the love of dogs, then what the hell is even the point?

I guarantee you I am not the naive one here ompus

One again:
Nobody is attacking you personally.
Nobody is insulting your puppy.
Posters are simply trying to make you understand that where you got your puppy from was almost certainly less than ideal... and you really aren't giving much information to dispute that.


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Okay, now you're assuming my gender….
> 
> By calling your dog that, along with calling cross breeds "mutts", "mongrels" and "side of the road special", you've got a pretty dim view on cross breeds. I mean, "Meth Puppy", really!? That's just twisted even coming up with a name like that, let alone calling your dog that. I'm sure plenty of dog owners (mind you not on here by the sounds of it) would find it revolting that you refer to your dog as that.
> 
> Anyway, we're going round in circles here. Let's agree to disagree. Again, thanks to those that offered advice without the assumptions about where we got him from. We appreciate that you didn't take this off topic. To the rest, good luck with your crusade.


Is it more revolting to give your well cared for, much loved dog a silly term of endearment nickname, or to line the pockets of somebody who couldn't even be bothered to check the animals they produced for issues before cashing in?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Just feel the need to point out that "dude" is gender neutral. 
And still giggling that methpuppy has caused such a commotion  
FWIW, she's currently not being a methpuppy but a bed hog. Methpuppy was earlier when she treed a possum. She was all puffed up and proud of her little swamprat self! :Hilarious


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## Mum2Ozzy (Dec 21, 2020)

I think methpuppy is kind, ours is frequently called fluffy bastard also furry dictator, his Lordship etc. We love him, really


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> Okay, now you're assuming my gender….
> 
> By calling your dog that, along with calling cross breeds "mutts", "mongrels" and "side of the road special", you've got a pretty dim view on cross breeds. I mean, "Meth Puppy", really!? That's just twisted even coming up with a name like that, let alone calling your dog that. I'm sure plenty of dog owners (mind you not on here by the sounds of it) would find it revolting that you refer to your dog as that.
> 
> Anyway, we're going round in circles here. Let's agree to disagree. Again, thanks to those that offered advice without the assumptions about where we got him from. We appreciate that you didn't take this off topic. To the rest, good luck with your crusade.


What's done is done, you bought a puppy from a volume breeder, hence why the hernia wasn't picked up at the 'health check', & you need to take ownership of that fact.

You really need to calm down over how other people refer to their own dogs, I personally don't like the term 'furbaby', it sounds creepy & needy & unnecessarily anthropomorphic, but I wouldn't waste energy over making that same point repeatedly.

While you're wrangling with this apparently wonderful & caring breeder over a hernia that should have been picked up at a vet check, we'll continue our 'crusade' to educate people on puppy farming, steer buyers away from these types of establishments & lobbying for legislation to make it financially unviable to farm dogs like livestock.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Mum2Ozzy said:


> I think methpuppy is kind, ours is frequently called fluffy bastard also furry dictator, his Lordship etc. We love him, really


Rogue got called some pretty choice words when she got sidetracked on a dark walk in the woods the other night & I spent 20 minutes that felt like 20 hours running around with my dying torch yelling for her, not sure where she went but there was a lot of thick mud involved.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

It's the same as the difference between ''half-caste'' and ''mixed race'', I suppose. The latter is now considered more acceptable.



3dogs2cats said:


> Isn`t a Morkie a Maltese x Yorkshire terrier?


Thank you for enlightening me (I was hoping it wasn't mastiff :Smuggrin).

I think the problem with this thread to date is that one or two comments could have been written in a more diplomatic way (as in ''it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it'').


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

As it's quite likely some of the litter are still available, there are just 2 licensed kennels I could find with Morkies at the moment, assuming UK https://www.douglashallkennels.co.uk/
https://www.kellyskennels.co.uk/


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Your initial question was answered, politely ,in the next post after yours. Now you could have said , OK, thank you and left it at that. But no, this tiresome thread has rumbled on for 4 pages with you fixated on the nick-names other members have for their dogs, being rude and insulting to members who have tried to help.
I'm really not sure why we're bothering.


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

Both my hounds have impeccable pedigrees, but that doesn't stop me from referring to them as "mutts" or "hell hounds".


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Burrowzig said:


> As it's quite likely some of the litter are still available, there are just 2 licensed kennels I could find with Morkies at the moment, assuming UK https://www.douglashallkennels.co.uk/
> https://www.kellyskennels.co.uk/


They're not short of puppies for sale are they, dozens of them. If they are not puppy farms I'll eat my hat. No mention of health tests as far as I could see, just health checks with a vet. If the OP did buy for either of these businesses then the health check buy the vet should have noted the hernia.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Burrowzig said:


> As it's quite likely some of the litter are still available, there are just 2 licensed kennels I could find with Morkies at the moment, assuming UK https://www.douglashallkennels.co.uk/
> https://www.kellyskennels.co.uk/


Yikes! And yes, both definitely puppy farms. 



Calvine said:


> I think the problem with this thread to date is that one or two comments could have been written in a more diplomatic way (as in ''it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it'').


Actually OP got their panties in a wad over mongrel first, then me calling Penny a methpuppy and swamprat. Not sure how to be more diplomatic about that as I'm not going to stop calling her either and more. 
And has been said multiple times, there's nothing wrong with calling a dog a mongrel and it was never said or meant as an insult. Again, not sure how to remedy that if the OP won't accept the truth.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Burrowzig said:


> As it's quite likely some of the litter are still available, there are just 2 licensed kennels I could find with Morkies at the moment, assuming UK https://www.douglashallkennels.co.uk/
> https://www.kellyskennels.co.uk/


Both these establishments have been discussed on here in the past, none of it positive except maybe from the odd someone who got lucky & had no issues, so now makes it their life's mission to give free advertising to wherever they bought their puppy/puppies.

Both are well known to various campaign groups such as PuppyLove, Say No to Puppy Dealers & Pup Aid, all the big (& most of the smaller) players in rescue & individuals such as Lucy the Cavalier's family & Janetta Harvey.

I checked my local puppy farmer & although he has lots of litters currently none appear to be Maltese x Yorkie.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

SusieRainbow said:


> this tiresome thread has rumbled on for 4 pages with you fixated on the nick-names other members have for their dogs, being rude and insulting to members who have tried to help.
> I'm really not sure why we're bo


I dread to think how horrified they'd be, if they heard what I call mine from time to time 
Especially when falcor has raised the bin, rolled in fox poo, or, like last Christmas day, when he cost me a fortune at the vets (never foglia, she's the girl who eggs him on)
Most of them are not suitable for a family based forum

As for mongrels, all dogs not of a recognised breeding, were, in my younger days, called mongrels,
Or 
I would have had a plethora of designer breeds 
It wasn't until people read about labradoodles and realised there was money to be made, that the term designer breed even came about 
But then,
My favourite breed has always been a mongrel


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Reena's current name is Flea-bag, for obvious reasons though I don't know where it came from! ( she has been vigorously treated)
Bobby's is Whinge Bum due to his objections at being banished to the crate when activities not aided by annoying little dogs getting undeerfoot are ongoing.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

Burrowzig said:


> As it's quite likely some of the litter are still available, there are just 2 licensed kennels I could find with Morkies at the moment, assuming UK https://www.douglashallkennels.co.uk/
> https://www.kellyskennels.co.uk/


My neighbour is looking for a new dog and she said someone with a dog she liked the look of came from Kelly's Kennel.
Thankfully she looked them up and came to the conclusion they were a puppy farm herself and I confirmed their suspicions so I hope they steer clear.

And on the theme of nicknames my old dog's was 'useless'  He was the best dog.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

simplysardonic said:


> Both these establishments have been discussed on here in the past,


Isn't that first one the guy who used to be our resident puppy farmer? 
Sadly it seems business is booming 

For anyone wondering why a sanitized puppy farm with council licencing and regular vet visits is still a problem, here's just one example:
From the mentioned website:
_"All our dogs live in purpose built accommodation which is centrally heated and fully biosecure. 
The building design incorporates the latest animal welfare techniques which eliminate environmental stress. 
The dogs are housed in social groups depending on their size and breed with daily outside exercise and an enhanced and enriched environment which fulfils their needs."
_
Omitting the welfare angle that aside from very niche working dog types, most dogs are social creatures who want to be with their humans, if you're buying a dog to be a pet in your home, wouldn't you want that pup and pup's mum to be dogs who live and are raised in a home environment?
Have them already used to the noises of a toilet flushing or the clang of dishes being washed, the smells of dinner being prepared? 
Good breeders whelp in their homes, the puppies are socialized from birth to normal household sounds, smells, vibrations etc. Most have already had a car ride with their mum and littermates. Setting them up for success as a pet dog who goes and does stuff with the family.

Daily outside exercise? Who wants to be that these dogs are never walked off the premises of the puppy farm?
Again, you want a pet dog who you can take to the children's park, or to a downtown cafe, or for a walk in the woods. Why would you start with a pup who's had no experience of any of this, nor the pup's mum? 
No dog's needs are fulfilled by being let out in an exercise area with a few other dogs once or twice a day while the kennels are cleaned. Dogs need to experience new smells on different walks, they need to explore new areas. This is no way for a dog to live and by supporting these sorts of establishments by buying dogs from them, you're perpetuating the suffering of the bitches being bred and housed like this.

I find it far more offensive to not care about the fate of breeding dogs and bitches stuck in puppy farms like this than to call a happy, active, fulfilled dog a swamprat. Seriously!


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

OP, if you can relax a little bit, and realise that everyone only has the best interests of the pup at heart, it would be worth your while sticking around on here, to ask for advice in the future.

We took on a dog from a puppy farm when I was a child, and he was a tragic little soul. He had an awful lot of temperament issues and could be really aggressive at times.

Also, as time goes on you'll most definitely have some choice nicknames for him!


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Isn't that first one the guy who used to be our resident puppy farmer?


Nope, he's another one, Clay Hall Kennels.

I've got a whole load of puppy farm websites bookmarked for reference purposes- him, Douglas Hall & Kelly's are just 3 of them.


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## golfchick (Mar 18, 2010)

Best. Thread. Today!


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## Silverpaw (May 8, 2019)

I don't usually join in with these threads but felt compelled to with this one for a couple of reasons.Firstly, to 'defend' the mongrel,not that they need defending but,in my book,any dog that isn't 'thoroughbred' is,to all intent and purpose,a mongrel.The fancy names now given and widely recognised are just that,fancy names.Maybe for convenience and definitely to increase the monetary value.I myself am the very proud owner of a cross of a cross of a cross ....I feel privileged to share my life with a truly unique little dog.Secondly,all dogs need a good home and I hope your little one will go from strength to strength.However,I am struggling to see the problem in recognising that many many dogs comes from puppy farms,dressed up to be dog loving places but basically there to make money.Each time they sell a dog,they are encouraged to go on and 'make' more, like a production line.I cannot see any way in which this is good for any dogs at all.It's not a criticism of anyone who unwittingly buys one but hopefully, the more awareness that people develop about these places,the less the financial incentive to perpetuate the suffering will be.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Apart from puppies needing to hear and see the goings on in a normal household, there is a need for puppies to have regular human interaction and handling almost from birth. I fail to see how having so many puppies at these puppy farms they have enough staff to adequately give them that one to one human interaction regularly. 
The breeders I got Isla from more or less spent most of her time with puppies as she just adored having them. Their daughter who was round about 16 at the time was training to become a classical singer and once home from school would sit in the puppy pen and sing scales to the puppies.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

simplysardonic said:


> Nope, he's another one, Clay Hall Kennels.
> 
> I've got a whole load of puppy farm websites bookmarked for reference purposes- him, Douglas Hall & Kelly's are just 3 of them.


Ah! The "Hall" part got me. Clay Hall, Douglass Hall... Either way avoid avoid avoid!

See these threads have purpose! OP may not be swayed, but lurkers and other new posters will have an entertaining and hopefully educational read 

And in the spirit of education:
If this isn't a methpuppy, I don't know what is!











Just don't call her a furbaby! :Angelic:Hilarious


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Ah! The "Hall" part got me. Clay Hall, Douglass Hall... Either way avoid avoid avoid!
> 
> See these threads have purpose! OP may not be swayed, but lurkers and other new posters will have an entertaining and hopefully educational read
> 
> ...


Those videos have given me my laugh for the day. I love them. Especially old Bates lying down there, hilarious.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

lorilu said:


> Those videos have given me my laugh for the day. I love them. Especially old Bates lying down there, hilarious.


I have a video somewhere either youtube or instagram where Penny is being a nutball and Bates turns around and looks at me and rolls his eyes. It's hilarious


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## golfchick (Mar 18, 2010)

Energiser dog!!


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

At this stage , seeing the pups here, does it matter if it's come from a puppy farmer, back yard breeder, accidental litter or a breed club accredited breeder? 

Whether the pup is a mongrel, cross, Heinz 57 , a designer whatever you want to call it a mutt or a well bred pedigree

The pups here and the problem needs addressing.

To the owner,. If I were you I would just forget about it and put I'd down to experience, you have the pup now and this is not a massive problem that is going to need lifelong medical attention.. You perhaps should have done your research prior to buying, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Forget the compensation,. and any concerns regarding the establishment report to the council, but above all else enjoy the pup.

To add to my comment regarding puppy farmers etc Most people on this forum are aware of puppy farmers and back yard breeders and how they operate back to back litters, poor breeding no human contact no medical care, close couplings, unethical breeding practices etc 

But sadly many of the public are blind to the dark side,. Yes these people need to be made aware of how these evil people work and how and why we should not buy from them and the implications of what you could end up with should you chose to do so.

But sometimes it's too late,. Seriously,. Could any on you after having a pup for even a short length of time return it to one of these places knowing what you would be returning it too?

Just saying,. Not responding to any negative replies, as although I appreciate your views, of which you have every right to I too have mine and I have no desire to argue the toss.

Merry Christmas everyone.


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## JoanneF (Feb 1, 2016)

O2.0 said:


> Ah! The "Hall" part got me. Clay Hall, Douglass Hall... Either way avoid avoid avoid!
> 
> See these threads have purpose! OP may not be swayed, but lurkers and other new posters will have an entertaining and hopefully educational read
> 
> ...


She is sooooo living her best life. Sorry to go a little off topic, but what an amazing transformation from the scared little mite you found.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

JoanneF said:


> She is sooooo living her best life. Sorry to go a little off topic, but what an amazing transformation from the scared little mite you found.


She's a furry little dictator is what she is! 

*wonders how politically incorrect furry dictator is*


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Dick Tracy said:


> At this stage , seeing the pups here, *does it matter if it's come from a puppy farmer, back yard breeder, accidental litter or a breed club accredited breeder?*
> 
> Whether the pup is a mongrel, cross, Heinz 57 , a designer whatever you want to call it a mutt or a well bred pedigree
> 
> ...


Actually it _does_ matter, as if the OP had been more selective about where they'd sourced their puppy they likely wouldn't have the issue they are now having.


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

simplysardonic said:


> Actually it _does_ matter, as if the OP had been more selective about where they'd sourced their puppy they likely wouldn't have the issue they are now having.


Did you read my full post?
There is a clue. At this stage.

Then my comments later on.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Dick Tracy said:


> At this stage , seeing the pups here, does it matter if it's come from a puppy farmer, back yard breeder, accidental litter or a breed club accredited breeder?
> 
> Whether the pup is a mongrel, cross, Heinz 57 , a designer whatever you want to call it a mutt or a well bred pedigree
> 
> ...


Of course it matters. Many people read these forums, not just the ones posting. If we all just spread fake rainbows and flowers over every issue, no one would ever learn anything.

As you say, most people , on this forum (regular posters) know the issues. Sadly, clearly, many don't. These threads may make someone flounce off because they can't admit they made a mistake, but they also educate and may make a difference.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

BJ'sMorkiePup said:


> You don't think breeders treat it as a business? You think they're all in it for the love of the animals and not interested in making profit at all? :Hilarious Oh, how naive. They're not making a living off it but it's a side business, for sure.


You're calling us naive? You're the one who bought a pup from a Puppy Farm and believes compensation will be forthcoming because the pup has a hernia.

I had PRTs when they very first had K. C. Recognition. When I wanted to breed a litter, I took my bitch to the South of England, (I live in the North), lot of petrol and two nights in accommodation to pay for. At the time, I owned the top stud dog in the breed, but he was not the best dog for my bitch. Then, the care of my bitch, the cost of the best equipment for her, then the care of her and her pups, involving food, heating, washing, medications and time off work.

There were four in the litter and I kept one. In those days, PRTs sold for £150. You believe that was a 'side business'?


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

lorilu said:


> Of course it matters. Many people read these forums, not just the ones posting. If we all just spread fake rainbows and flowers over every issue, no one would ever learn anything.
> 
> As you say, most people , on this forum (regular posters) know the issues. Sadly, clearly, many don't. These threads may make someone flounce off because they can't admit they made a mistake, but they also educate and may make a difference.


Did you just edit??
Thought I was replyIng to a different post??
I clearly said at the beginning of my reply 'at this stage"
I then went on to emphasize on the downfalls of buying from puppy farmers etc.

During lockdown buyers couldn't give two hoots where the pups came from hence these establishments flourished, yes, people need educating but in this instance I fear it's just a matter of its happened , can't shut the door after the horse had bolted, encourage the owner to get the dog fixed rather then dumping/ignoring/turning a blind eye etc.

Anyway as I said, I have no desire to argue the toss with people I don't know,. merry Christmas everyone.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Dick Tracy said:


> Did you read my full post?
> There is a clue. At this stage.
> 
> Then my comments later on.


Yes I did thankyou, & my opinion still stands.

Most of us who actually care about dogs beyond cute puppies are heartily sick of hearing buyers bleating about their bad experiences or their dissatisfaction when they either did naff all research or turned a blind eye because they don't care as long as they get what they want when they want it.

In this particular thread I suppose it's a blessing this poor puppy only has a hernia & not something more sinister like parvo.


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

lorilu said:


> Of course it matters. Man


There is nothing wrong with your opinion,. Nothing amiss whatsoever, so yeah you stand by it.
But from my perspective, at this precise moment i am just as concerned , more so maybe, about the amount of troublesome teenagers, mostly young uncastrated males coming into rescue due to the irresponsible breeders of any breed not vetting homes, these are dogs that have issues, having never been taught the boundaries, some of these issues have escalated into aggression and many specific breed rescues won't re-home a dog that has bitten.
The issue of a hernia that can be fixed next to a dog being pts due to seller/buyer ignorence is insignificant imo.
That's my view, of which I'm entitled too, I shall leave this here now


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

simplysardonic said:


> Yes I did thankyou, & my opinion still stands.
> 
> Most of us who actually care about dogs beyond cute puppies are heartily sick of hearing buyers bleating about their bad experiences or their dissatisfaction when they either did naff all research or turned a blind eye because they don't care as long as they get what they want when they want it.
> 
> In this particular thread I suppose it's a blessing this poor puppy only has a hernia & not something more sinister like parvo.


Sorry but I've really cocked up with my quoting. This was meant for you

There is nothing wrong with your opinion,. Nothing amiss whatsoever, so yeah you stand by it.
But from my perspective, at this precise moment i am just as concerned , more so maybe, about the amount of troublesome teenagers, mostly young uncastrated males coming into rescue due to the irresponsible breeders of any breed not vetting homes, these are dogs that have issues, having never been taught the boundaries, some of these issues have escalated into aggression and many specific breed rescues won't re-home a dog that has bitten.
The issue of a hernia that can be fixed next to a dog being pts due to seller/buyer ignorence is insignificant imo.
That's my view, of which I'm entitled too, I shall leave this here now


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## BlueJay (Sep 20, 2013)

BlueJay said:


> Is there more revolting to give your well cared for, much loved dog a silly term of endearment nickname, or to line the pockets of somebody who couldn't even be bothered to check the animals they produced for issues before cashing in?





Dick Tracy said:


> Sorry but I've really cocked up with my quoting. This was meant for you
> 
> There is nothing wrong with your opinion,. Nothing amiss whatsoever, so yeah you stand by it.
> But from my perspective, at this precise moment i am just as concerned , more so maybe, about the amount of troublesome teenagers, mostly young uncastrated males coming into rescue due to the irresponsible breeders of any breed not vetting homes, these are dogs that have issues, having never been taught the boundaries, some of these issues have escalated into aggression and many specific breed rescues won't re-home a dog that has bitten.
> ...


Do remember that the people producing dogs like this hernia pup are very likely to be the exact breeders that are concerning you.
They are _not _going to check suitability of owners, are _not_ going to take temperament into consideration at all when breeding, are _not_ going to offer any form of training, behavioural support or backup, and are _not _going to take back any troublesome teenagers (or any dogs past the age of cute sellable puppy).

It's not just about the hernia; even the best breeder in the world could throw a pup with a hernia (though they'd likely notice it before it went to a new home...)


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Dick Tracy said:


> Anyway as I said, I have no desire to argue the toss with people I don't know


Clearly.


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

lorilu said:


> Clearly.


Out of curiosity, it there a special sign one needs to make on here, a secret hand shake, a nod or a wink maybe that one needs to make prior to posting an opinion?

And could someone tell me please, the selling site pets4homes,. Are they associated with this place?
Only the reason I ask is their adverts keep popping up every time I look on here?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Dick Tracy said:


> Out of curiosity, it there a special sign one needs to make on here, a secret hand shake, a nod or a wink maybe that one needs to make prior to posting an opinion?
> 
> And could someone tell me please, the selling site pets4homes,. Are they associated with this place?
> Only the reason I ask is their adverts keep popping up every time I look on here?


No, no special signs needed, just the ability to acknowledge that opinions and comments may be challenged or disagreed with. That's how forums work.
As for Pets4Homes they are owned by the same media company as this forum but no link apart from that. We have no influence or interest in their advertising.


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

Night all
merry Christmas 
Xx


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

SusieRainbow said:


> No, no special signs needed, just the ability to acknowledge that opinions and comments may be challenged or disagreed with. That's how forums work.
> As for Pets4Homes they are owned by the same media company as this forum but no link apart from that. We have no influence or interest in their advertising.


Oh I totally appreciate that, and I am well up for a challenge .Just there seems to be a bit of an attitude from some . No problem Susie,. Just thought, having read some of the ads on pets4homes that many of these advertiser's appear to be exactly the type of breeder that are despised by many ?? Yet they are happy to turn a blind eye when it suits maybe???


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Dick Tracy said:


> Oh I totally appreciate that, and I am well up for a challenge .Just there seems to be a bit of an attitude from some . No problem Susie,. Just thought, having read some of the ads on pets4homes that many of these advertiser's appear to be exactly the type of breeder that are despised by many ?? Yet they are happy to turn a blind eye when it suits maybe???


There has been a lot of opposition to the advertising on th forum, we have complained many times tothe site owners and got nowhere. Some members find Ad blockers prevent their appearance but I agree,they are inappropriate to the ethic of the forum.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Dick Tracy said:


> There is nothing wrong with your opinion,. Nothing amiss whatsoever, so yeah you stand by it.
> But from my perspective, at this precise moment i am just as concerned , more so maybe, about the amount of troublesome teenagers, mostly young uncastrated males coming into rescue due to the irresponsible breeders of any breed not vetting homes, these are dogs that have issues, having never been taught the boundaries, some of these issues have escalated into aggression and many specific breed rescues won't re-home a dog that has bitten.
> The issue of a hernia that can be fixed next to a dog being pts due to seller/buyer ignorence is insignificant imo.
> That's my view, of which I'm entitled too, I shall leave this here now


Yes, there are irresponsible Breeders, but, many of the dogs in rescue are those who come out of Puppy Farms, unhealthy and having had the worst start in life.

This thread is not an attack on the OP, she became aggressive in the first place, but to try very hard to discourage others from buying from such a place.

This is, after all, a forum. Members will have opinions and will voice them.

I live very close to Douglas Hall Kennels. I know personally of three individuals who have bought from there and had found themselves in a nightmare with unhealthy and sick pups. Two of the three died.

On the basis that two wrongs don't make a right - buying from Puppy Farms is not okay because there are unscrupulous Breeders. They both come into the same category, that is, breeding for profit alone.

The message is, do your research and buy from a reputable and conscientious Breeder.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Rafa said:


> The message is, do your research and buy from a reputable and conscientious Breeder.


Or just steal the dog off the street...

:Angelic:Angelic:Angelic
*whistles innocently*



Dick Tracy said:


> At this stage , seeing the pups here, does it matter if it's come from a puppy farmer, back yard breeder, accidental litter or a breed club accredited breeder?


In regard to the original question about the hernia, yes, it matters a lot. 
Because a responsible, ethical breeder would have known about the hernia and have addressed it already before the final sale/purchase and rehoming of the pup. 
Given that the hernia was not disclosed, it means the breeder is less than stellar. How a breeder who you would expect to be handling and weighing pups daily and generally giving them a thorough once-over pretty much every day would miss a hernia is kind of impossible, so either the breeder is not that conscientious about handling the pups, or was deliberately trying to deceive the puppy buyer and hope they didn't notice. Either option is not good. 
So knowing the pup is from a less than stellar breeder that affects how to advise. Puppy farmer types are likely going to offer a 'replacement pup' which most owners choose not to do for very obvious reasons. Also doubtful the owner will get any money back or reimbursement for the surgery.

For future reference, lurkers and others who may happen upon the thread, it's a great cautionary tale of how to avoid getting duped by flashy websites and 'licensing.' Why multiple breeds and crossbreeds is a huge red flag, why housing puppies in kennels is a red flag and it's a great opportunity for education. Because until people know better, they can't do better.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Mongrel is a descriptive word derived I believe from old English words for mixed or crowd.

Nothing at all to do with any insult


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> Or just steal the dog off the street...
> 
> :Angelic:Angelic:Angelic
> *whistles innocently*


Careful, you don't want to add (pet)ty thievery to the rap sheet OP's got on you!



O2.0 said:


> For future reference, lurkers and others who may happen upon the thread, it's a great cautionary tale of how to avoid getting duped by flashy websites and 'licensing.' Why multiple breeds and crossbreeds is a huge red flag, why housing puppies in kennels is a red flag and it's a great opportunity for education. Because until people know better, they can't do better.


Indeed, they always seem to have very flashy websites that are regularly updated to lure people in, a lot of breeders I'd class as reputable seem to either have outdated websites, if they have one at all, or just a listing on Champdogs.

The lovely breeder I'm hoping one day to have a pup from hasn't updated hers for years, not that it matters to me as I know her, & walk her gorgeous dogs twice a week for her.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

simplysardonic said:


> Careful, you don't want to add (pet)ty thievery to the rap sheet OP's got on you!


Ha ha! I see what you did there!


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## Emlar (Sep 29, 2020)

I do wonder if the OP is being so defensive because they are now thinking that, even after all their research and what they thought was the right thing, they have bought and given money to a puppy farm. I thats the hard thing sometimes, even when you think you're doing all you can, it's hard to be called out and realise you maybe didn't.

I know that Rufus was from a BYB. I hold my hands up and say that, while we thought we were making sure he wasn't from a farm, I didnt realise that BYB could be just as bad. I thank my lucky stars every day that he is currently okay health wise, and while he is often a pain in the butt, temperament wise he seems okay too. 

To the OP, I hope your little pup is okay. Enjoy him. Don't worry about getting any money back, he's your little family member now. No one is trying to be offensive, but everyone has seen too many poorly, rehomed and put to sleep dogs to be able to not call put puppy farms when they see them.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Emlar said:


> To the OP, I hope your little pup is okay.


That is very nice of you; however, I don't think OP will be back to appreciate it.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2021)

I agree, with most of your post @Emlar but I do think some posters were being a bit snippy and unpleasant knowingly early on. Likely more so than they would have been in person. 
I cannot quite see this entire conversation taking place face to face. Some posts were fine but the OP felt jumped on I think pretty early.
As someone said earlier in the thread, it is not just what you say but how you say it and it seems some users take a bit of glee in winding people up.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2021)

I also looked at one of the links for kennels posted. To be fair to the average puppy buyer, that they are licensed and certified can be confusing, as it seems all above board.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

J. Dawson said:


> I cannot quite see this entire conversation taking place face to face.


This isn't face to face. It is an on line forum, where one's questions can reach potentially hundreds of people. Every one of them an individual with an opinion or experience to share. That's the reality of forums.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

J. Dawson said:


> I agree, with most of your post @Emlar but I do think some posters were being a bit snippy and unpleasant knowingly early on. Likely more so than they would have been in person.
> I cannot quite see this entire conversation taking place face to face. Some posts were fine but the OP felt jumped on I think pretty early.
> As someone said earlier in the thread, it is not just what you say but how you say it and it seems some users take a bit of glee in winding people up.


You know, it's easy to point fingers after the fact, but I never see any of the "be polite" and "it's not what you say or how you say it" crew actually answer newbies who have questions about what to do with their puppy farm pup problems. They just show up after the OP has thrown a tantrum and left to criticize how others handled it.

I'd love to know how to post without people taking offense but in my long history on forums, sometimes you can say the absolute most innocuous things and people still go off the rails over it. The OP wasn't offended by me telling them to wind their neck in, they were offended that I call *my* dog a swamprat and went on to make assumptions about how I treat people with disabilities and different races. That's pretty darned insulting yet I did not respond in kind. 
Do tell, how would you have responded to the OP so as not to cause offense?


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2021)

I understand what a forum is @lorilu but it does come across as clique like and unpleasant quite often. Not exactly what you want if you want your message to get across. But that's all I have to say on the matter.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2021)

@O2 it is quite easy to answer questions in a non offensive way.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

J. Dawson said:


> @O2 it is quite easy to answer questions in a non offensive way.


Is it? Because from what I can tell OP took offense at mongrel and puppy farm. I don't know how else to tell someone they bought a pup from a puppy farm than say, sorry, you bought a pup from a puppy farm. And I don't know anyone who finds mongrel offensive so how would I know the OP was going to find it offensive?

But hey, I'm willing to learn, so show me. Where did I go wrong with my response to the OP? 
This is my first post to the OP, what should I have done differently?


O2.0 said:


> Okay I'll play, what are the negative connotations to mongrel?
> *asking as the owner of a mongrel*
> 
> And no, not all kennels are puppy farms as stated by other posters, but a 'morkie' bred in kennels does kind of scream puppy farm, sorry.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> "it's not what you say or how you say it" crew


Well, just wow, how extremely rude you are; that's obviously me who is now being insulted, so please note I am not part of a ''crew''. I stand by what I said; I did not ''criticise'' anyone, merely suggested (politely, I would emphasise) why the whole thread got out of hand. I have seen so many newcomers who just disappear off radar - I could list many of them.



J. Dawson said:


> @O2 it is quite easy to answer questions in a non offensive way.


You would hope so, wouldn't you?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

J. Dawson said:


> I understand what a forum is @lorilu but it does come across as clique like and unpleasant quite often. Not exactly what you want if you want your message to get across. But that's all I have to say on the matter.


Here's the thing. The majority of regular members are aware of the issues with puppy farms and byb. There's no "clique", it is simply informed people expressing their knowledge, experience and information. Making everything all hearts and flowers does nothing to help any animal. And that's what this forum is about. The animal, first and foremost.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Well, just wow, how extremely rude you are; that's obviously me who is now being insulted,


But, you are choosing to be insulted. You weren't singled out. 

Let the mods be the judge of what's offensive or unhealthy for the forum, and everyone else be responsible for her or himself. If a newcomer doesn't stick because they didn't like honest answers, they are unlikely to enjoy this (or any other) forum.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

The fact that the puppy in question came from a Puppy Farm is very relevant. The OP came here asking what are her chances of getting compensation, given that her pup has a hernia.

Therefore, it was very appropriate for existing members to point out where, and from what, her puppy had come.

I did not see one rude post, until the OP herself became rude and aggressive, especially towards anyone who describes a dog of mixed breed as a Mongrel, and one particular member she took issue with because she had a couple of nicknames for her dog.

Posts on this forum show up on a Google search, so it is important that we're honest about the heartache and misery caused to many people when the puppy, for which they have paid handsomely, turns out to be unhealthy.

It is not always appropriate to be all 'pink and fluffy', and ask for photographs of the unfortunate puppy involved.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Calvine said:


> Well, just wow, how extremely rude you are;


This is a really good example of something I did not intend to be offensive in any way at all being taken as offensive. 
I was simply saying that often there are people on threads who chide posters for being too direct or running people off, and they say things about your tone or not what you say or how you say it. Many are members I absolutely admire and respect, and I am genuinely asking - how do you post without offending someone? Because in my experience, it's simply not possible.

Me calling my own dog a swamprat caused a massive to-do with the OP. I've been calling Penny a swamprat for 18 months now and this is the first time anyone took offense at it. How was I to know that was going to piss the OP off so much? I was using it to explain that mongrel was not offensive and I ended up causing even more offense by trying to soften the offense of mongrel.

So again, how could I have posted differently so as not to cause offense? Or simply not post? Because I've done that too and posters get pissed that no one responds to their question. So... ???

And FWIW, the OP called me some rather nasty things and I did not respond to any of that at all expect for a little joke about assuming my gender which was meant more to lighten the mood than anything. Do I get any credit for ignoring the offensive comments made towards me?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> This is a really good example of something I did not intend to be offensive in any way at all being taken as offensive.
> I was simply saying that often there are people on threads who chide posters for being too direct or running people off, and they say things about your tone or not what you say or how you say it. Many are members I absolutely admire and respect, and I am genuinely asking - how do you post without offending someone? Because in my experience, it's simply not possible.


@Calvine I just reread the part you took offense too, and you're right, it's not as innocuous as I remember it. I was thinking one thing and posted more forcefully than I meant. 
But I still stand by what I said. It's easy to unpack what went wrong after the fact. But in general I think most of us post with genuine, good intentions. We're not trying to chase anyone off or piss anyone off, it just happens, and sometimes you feel bad about it and realize you could have done better, other times you just shrug it off. I do think if you feel someone posted inappropriately it's worth reporting.

And again, I have to stress, we really don't have a whole lot of control over how people react. Some posters get all bent out of shape if you call their female dog a bitch. Another time I called Penny a 'girl' in a FB post and some stranger lectured me about how inappropriate that was. Who knew!?


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

lorilu said:


> But, you are choosing to be insulted. You weren't singled out


This is one of the most ridiculous comments I have read to date - it is total balderdash, and received two predictable ''likes''. My post was polite (unlike many) - so why would anyone think I was ''choosing to be insulted''? Who in their right mind would? And no, the mods do not tell me what I do or don't find offensive as I am intelligent enough to manage that myself.


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## DanWalkersmum (Mar 21, 2019)

Wonder what happened to the pup.......................that started all this


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I think it is quite difficult. This forum is not 'cliquey' but obviously when you have been posting alongside the same people for 10 years plus and some have even met up you get to know them know what they are meaning - which is very seldom anything that is meant to be offensive. I can quite see that newer members get a different take on things and can be offended sometimes but try and remember that we are all (or mostly!) nice people who enjoy being on here and do not want to offend anyone.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Calvine said:


> This is one of the most ridiculous comments I have read to date - it is total balderdash, and received two predictable ''likes''. My post was polite (unlike many) - so why would anyone think I was ''choosing to be insulted''? Who in their right mind would? And no, the mods do not tell me what I do or don't find offensive as I am intelligent enough to manage that myself.


Wait, time out. I don't know what happened to the quote function, but I did not say that. 
And it's not polite to call someone rude. So again, how a post comes across, matter of opinion.



DanWalkersmum said:


> Wonder what happened to the pup.......................that started all this


I know right?  
And the poor dam who's farming out puppies...
And all the other dogs living there being used as cash cows


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Calvine said:


> This is one of the most ridiculous comments I have read to date - it is total balderdash, and received two predictable ''likes''. My post was polite (unlike many) - so why would anyone think I was ''choosing to be insulted''? Who in their right mind would? And no, the mods do not tell me what I do or don't find offensive as I am intelligent enough to manage that myself.


People often choose to be insulted. You read a post, decided it was directed at you, and decided to feel insulted by it. You could have as easily shrugged it off, considered the source, if the comment was made by someone whose posts you don't enjoy.

And I didn't say anything about the mods telling YOU what to do. The mods make choices for _the forum_ as a whole.

No one has disputed your intelligence or your right to post what and how you want. Or your right to feel offended if you so choose.

But so is everyone else in this forum free to express themselves how they see fit.

(I'm not setting myself up as perfect. I get it wrong lots of times. And when I do the mods let me know it. I don't take it personally. Mostly )


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> they just show up after the OP has thrown a tantrum and left


No, again untrue: I was watching the thread from the beginning, but seeing it deteriorate into a free for all slanging match decided I did not wish to participate to any great degree. I did not want to sink to that level to be honest. Did not ''show up'' after OP predictably left. So I then posted politely and added that many posts could have been more appropriately worded.



O2.0 said:


> And it's not polite to call someone rude


It's far more polite than most of the posts on this thread have been. Are you seriously trying to say that I am the rude one? Really? You must be good at twisting things. Take a look through the thread and there will be far more examples of blatant deliberate rudeness (that's if you are really looking). That really takes the cake!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

lorilu said:


> People often choose to be insulted. You read a post, decided it was directed at you, and decided to feel insulted by it. You could have as easily shrugged it off, considered the source, if the comment was made by someone whose posts you don't enjoy.
> 
> And I didn't say anything about the mods telling YOU what to do. The mods make choices for _the forum_ as a whole.
> 
> ...


 Yes, it was directed at me as you said ; ''Let the mods . . . '' and my name was quoted. So, at whom was it directed?


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Calvine said:


> Take a look through the thread and there will be far more examples of blatant deliberate rudeness (that's if you are really looking).


Okay as requested I have looked back over the thread. 
I don't see anyone being rude until the OP accuses poster of being nasty for suspecting - rightly, that the pup is from a puppy farm and using the term mongrel. 
I did tell them to wind their neck in but full disclosure here, I don't know how rude or not that's considered, I learned the expression here on forums and I like how colorful it is. Don't know how insulting it's considered, it doesn't seem to be from what I can tell but I may be wrong.

But seriously the rudest person on this thread was by far the OP and particularly to me, and I didn't respond to the attacks other than to continue to try and explain that it was not insulting to call their dog a mongrel. 
The reason I didn't respond to the attacks is because they are a newbie and figured I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. 
See? I am being nice to newbies. :Angelic

Anyway...
Happy New Year all! 
I'm off to see what trouble my swamprat methpuppy and I can get in to off forums


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Calvine said:


> Yes, it was directed at me as you said ; ''Let the mods . . . '' and my name was quoted. So, at whom was it directed?


You are a little mixed up. I quoted your comment that you were insulted by another poster's comment. The other poster did not quote you or single you out.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Good heavens, post Christmas mood is not good.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Blitz said:


> Good heavens, post Christmas mood is not good.


that might be the understatement of the year


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Blitz said:


> Good heavens, post Christmas mood is not good.


And before someone takes offence that is a general statement!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Blitz said:


> And before someone takes offence that is a general statement!


I'm offended!
You're assuming my mood!
I happen to be in a great mood!  :Mooning


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Blitz said:


> Good heavens, post Christmas mood is not good.


Gaviscon needed all round I think!
( yes, I am assuming many members have indigestion making them feel grumpy)


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Blitz said:


> And before someone takes offence that is a general statement!


Oh, now I'm REALLY offended now @Blitz.

You know very well that "someone" is ME.


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## Sarah H (Jan 18, 2014)

I think part of the problem with people feeling 'attacked' or 'offended' is that we get the same posts all the time with people getting puppies from bybs or puppy farms without realising and our responses can be pretty short and to the point. We don't mince our words but we definitely don't set out to offend. We actually care about the puppies and dogs people post about, and want anyone reading to realise that it's still far too easy to get duped into buying a puppy from a less than scrupulous breeder. We want owners to realise and learn from their mistakes, and although the threads get derailed sometimes (a lot of the time!) you will find the questions do get answered but people seem to focus on the other stuff as that's the emotional aspect. 
It's really hard to read how things are actually meant on the internet, especially if you are a new poster and don't know the regulars and their ways of speaking and personalities. But we really don't set out to offend!


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

I'm still kind of curious if it's considered rude to tell someone to wind yer neck in?


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## tyg'smum (Aug 14, 2018)

O2.0 said:


> I'm still kind of curious if it's considered rude to tell someone to wind yer neck in?


I'd say yes.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I'm still kind of curious if it's considered rude to tell someone to wind yer neck in?


I don't know about rude, but it could be taken as a comment made deliberately to wind them up? I mean, clearly it means the same thing as "calm down" or "chillout " or whatever...and of course no one likes being told any of those things. But when you put a spin of (subjectively speaking) humor into it, the target might take even more offense, whereas the one saying it might be trying to diffuse the situation with what they see as humor


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> I'm still kind of curious if it's considered rude to tell someone to wind yer neck in?


I'd take it as very rude, something said at the height of an argument. Worse than just calm down.


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm easy going and I don't think I'd take it well. No matter who said it.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Good to know!  
Considering I learned the expression on here after seeing it used fairly often, sometimes directed at me  Often in conversations I didn't think were that heated, it's hard to tell! 

Ah well. Even if I had not said wind yer neck in, OP would still have been offended at the adorable nicknames I use for Penny so it's still a lose-lose :Woot


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## cava14 una (Oct 21, 2008)

Nicknames for Penny are fine very funny in fact:Cat.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> Good to know!
> Considering I learned the expression on here after seeing it used fairly often, sometimes directed at me  Often in conversations I didn't think were that heated, it's hard to tell!
> 
> Ah well. Even if I had not said wind yer neck in, OP would still have been offended at the adorable nicknames I use for Penny so it's still a lose-lose :Woot


To be fair, you were a tad provoked. The OP aimed some pretty nasty accusations at you.


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## Arny (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Ah well. Even if I had not said wind yer neck in, OP would still have been offended at the adorable nicknames I use for Penny so it's still a lose-lose :Woot


Agree, it was already going south and that phrase wouldn't have made a difference in this instance.
I doubt many want to admit they bought from a puppy farm when confronted with it but perhaps they'll think it over and be ones to educate others in the future.
You only need to look at these place's fb pages to see that there are a lot of people who honestly believe its something other than.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Arny said:


> Agree, it was already going south and that phrase wouldn't have made a difference in this instance.
> I doubt many want to admit they bought from a puppy farm when confronted with it but perhaps they'll think it over and be ones to educate others in the future.
> You only need to look at these place's fb pages to see that there are a lot of people who honestly believe its something other than.


And some just want to believe they "rescued" the pup from the farm, and will not see it any other way. They don't want to know that their "rescue" simply makes room for more miserable pups, more suffering. I have a friend like that. She was a byb herself once or twice, and now deliberately buys from them, to "rescue" them. She won't be told anything different.


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## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

lorilu said:


> And some just want to believe they "rescued" the pup from the farm, and will not see it any other way. They don't want to know that their "rescue" simply makes room for more miserable pups, more suffering. I have a friend like that. She was a byb herself once or twice, and now deliberately buys from them, to "rescue" them. She won't be told anything different.


Interestingly, the same people who 'rescue' the cute puppies from these places very rarely get involved in rescuing the parents.


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## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

lorilu said:


> And some just want to believe they "rescued" the pup from the farm, and will not see it any other way. They don't want to know that their "rescue" simply makes room for more miserable pups, more suffering. I have a friend like that. She was a byb herself once or twice, and now deliberately buys from them, to "rescue" them. She won't be told anything different.





simplysardonic said:


> Interestingly, the same people who 'rescue' the cute puppies from these places very rarely get involved in rescuing the parents.


I'm starting to lean towards doing away with the term rescue altogether. Too many people are enamoured with the term and are using it so much it has lost meaning.

My friend the park ranger is very proud of Penny and how far she has come, she has watched her from the start and she really has come a long way, but every time she introduces her as a 'rescue' or uses 'rescue' to explain Penny's shyness I feel myself cringe a little. I'm not sure really what's bothering me about it really I just know I've started really not liking the term rescue for all sorts of reasons.

And frankly it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if your dog is a rescue, a side-of-the-road-special, the most researched of pedigrees or some back-yard-bred something. Now that the dog is owned and cared for he/she is your pet. Done!


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## Dick Tracy (Nov 9, 2021)

simplysardonic said:


> Interestingly, the same people who 'rescue' the cute puppies from these places very rarely get involved in rescuing the parents.


That's exactly what I did , around 45 years ago it was ,. Went to buy a choc brown lab pup, early on for that colour, the price tag £50,. The breeder a well respected breeder as it happens, also a judge at the time. The mother I notice had a prolaspe, the worst I had seen,.(I'm a weakling and thought it looked infected??) I paid £70 and walked out with the mother, went straight to the vets , she was if I recall right 14 months old, she cost me another £20 at the vets for emergency treatment then and sixyish?? ,. (I bet if I dug deep here I could perhaps find that bitches pedigree filed away )
Did I give a thought for those pups I was leaving behind?? No because I knew there were another eight mugs behind me clamouring to get their hands on a choc lab.
I was young and naive then.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> I'm still kind of curious if it's considered rude to tell someone to wind yer neck in?


It's a phrase normally used between people who know each other well, not with a stranger where it would be considered impolite.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Burrowzig said:


> It's a phrase normally used between people who know each other well, not with a stranger where it would be considered impolite.


Personally I'd find it more than impolite, I'd find it offensive.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

As commented @O2.0 was provoked,the OP made some pretty offensive remarks too. 
However this thread has gone so far off track, the OP is no longer engaged with it, so I think it's time to draw a line under it.:Locktopic


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