# Blood compatability



## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Correct me if i'm wrong. But I always thought from experience and knowledge that a blood group B boy can go with any blood group girl whereas a blood group A boy and a blood group A carrier of b boy have to go to a blood group A girl?

So my question is can an Ab boy only go with A girls?

Someone through a spanner in the works claiming that her Ab boy was suitable to breed with any girl.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I would only mate a type A stud to type A girls.

I think it is easier to think in terms of simply - it is type B blood that causes the problem and therefore type B girls are 'the problem' and should only be mated with type B males


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I would only mate a type A stud to type A girls.
> 
> I think it is easier to think in terms of simply - it is type B blood that causes the problem and therefore type B girls are 'the problem' and should only be mated with type B males


That's what I always thought and done......you know when someone says something and you start to question your own Knowledge and make you think again.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

kelzcats said:


> That's what I always thought and done......you know when someone says something and you start to question your own Knowledge and make you think again.


Oh yes, I know that feeling very well!

I think there is still confusion/disagreement (depending upon what your point of view is) about BGI. I still see breeders say that they wouldn't mate an A girl to B stud due to the risk of BGI. I have done this mating more times than I can remember over several decades without the slightest problem.

I don't think Diane Addie's info on her site has helped as the blood type mating tables/charts show kittens at risk of BGI but it directly goes against the experience of every long term BSH breeder that I know.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

kelzcats said:


> But I always thought from experience and knowledge that a blood group B boy can go with any blood group girl whereas a blood group A boy and a blood group A carrier of b boy have to go to a blood group A girl?
> 
> So my question is can an Ab boy only go with A girls?.


Simple answer no, but it does depend on whether you are prepared to put the effort in or not.
If you do any mating which can result in blood incompatibility (and there are several possibilities for NI not just a B queen to an A stud) then you hand feed the kittens for 16 - 24 hours and all should be well.

If you are not prepared to put in the effort then you breed B to B only, A to A, Ab or B and Ab to A only.


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## Tigermoon (Apr 2, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> I don't think Diane Addie's info on her site has helped as the blood type mating tables/charts show kittens at risk of BGI but it directly goes against the experience of every long term BSH breeder that I know.


In my experience and that of many others, Dr Addie is absolutely correct. I will never, ever breed Ab to Ab or Ab to B and not feed the resulting kittens for 24 hours again. It is not a good death ...


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

Three Ab studs over 19 years mated to Ab girls and I have never lost a kitten to BGI, nor have the majority of breeders I know. It is a mating that almost all BSH breeders will do.

Yes, I know a few who claim to have lost kittens from this mating and from B x B and homozygous A x A matings yet none of the breeders, when asked, ever describe a sign/symptom of BGI.

But I certainly think there is more to the AB blood system than we currently understand. For example the mic antigen - I don't know how much research is going into this but some veterinary manuals advise cross matching of blood for - + mic antigen prior to transfusion. Yet none of us breeders give it a thought


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Very confusing…… So can I mate my Ab boy with a A girl and a Ab girl? I have been reading so much stuff and find it all very conflicting.
I have always used a B stud boy this is my first Ab stud.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I think you will have to make up your own mind on that 

I have owned Ab studs for many years, mated to AA and Ab girls and have never had a problem.

Every BSH breeder I know (or even don't know if the subject is an online discussion of BSH blood types and matings) do these matings routinely.

There do seem to be a minority however who will not do the mating

It boils down to whether you consider that an A type girl could have sufficient anti-B antibodies to cause BGI


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Same conversation just question with different cats. So i have a queen who is 4 years old 3rd litter and going to be neutered after this litter, she was sold to me as a b girl and didn't question it. Last year i mated her to my b boy and i thought all would be ok as blood groups where compatible but we did lose one kitten after a couple of days she was much smaller then the others only 80g so i put it down to that when i think back there was no signs of BGI. i have been doing so much research on blood grouping and it has finally sank in. Anyway something put a thought in my head about this girls blood group so i rang up Langfords who ran her PKD test and ask them to run a blood group test for me and she has come back AB (carrier of b) so if i right a quarter of her kittens will get BGI, she was mated to my b stud again, she is 61 days today and i don't wont to lose any kittens, how can i stop this i don't really want to take all the kittens away from mum for 16/24 hours due to them needing the antibodies from the colostrum, and i never seem to be able to successfully bottle feed new borns.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

My understanding is that there isn't really an option but to remove them for the first 24hrs. 

It won't be that a quarter of each litter will get BGI, it's the each kitten has a 25% chance. If you repeated the mating again and again then over time you would probably see around a quarter, but for this mating only its a 25% chance per kitten


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You will get more people with experience on some of the Facebook groups. A friend who bred Devon Rex put a baby grow on the girl until the last kitten was 16 hours old, and hand-fed them for that time.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I looked at Diane Addis's charts from here http://www.catvirus.com/Blood groups.htm#Prevention of neonatal isoerythrolysis

and here is the chart in photo form.

The B females have a lot of anti-A antibodies so any kitten who is A is at significant risk. As your girl is type A she may have some anti-b antibodies but this is less of a problem. Although as it is a 3rd incompatible mating; it is likely she will have some anti-b antibodies. It will come down to personal choice, would you rather they had mum's antibodies to prevent disease and risk any B kittens getting NI if she does have a significant amount of anti-B antibodies.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Edit.... my daughter wrote this new question for me, my girl in question has just turned 5 this month, this is her 4 litter being spayed after this litter. 
My concern is if I hand rear these kittens they don't have the antibodies to fight off diseases. OR what is my chances of losing the whole litter because they wont feed?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about antibodies as its more important to take the kittens for 24 hours, feed powdered colostrum formula, that's what others that i know do. 
As above, friends use a body suit so mum can still bond and toilet the kittens.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

All 4 matings to your B stud I presume?
I would be inclined now as if it’s the 4th in compatible mating to hand feed the kittens. As each mating will increase the anti B antibodies which is why the first 2 litters were fine and the 3 may have not been. 

I am not sure if vets can blood type off umbilical cord blood, as that’s your other option is to identify the B type kittens and just feed them leaving the A kittens with mum. 

I am extrapolating my knowledge of anti-rhesus antibodies in human pregnancies plus research into cat blood type as my breed is 99% A -type and all my queens are type A. Our Vet is very annoyed as she wants a B-type blood donor.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

This is the colostrum I use https://abnobapetstore.co.uk/nettex-lifeline-for-kittens.html

We used it with Blue's kittens as her milk didn't come in particularly quickly as she had a c-section and some of the kittens weren't particularly lively and suckling well.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

lillytheunicorn said:


> This is the colostrum I use https://abnobapetstore.co.uk/nettex-lifeline-for-kittens.html
> 
> We used it with Blue's kittens as her milk didn't come in particularly quickly as she had a c-section and some of the kittens weren't particularly lively and suckling well.


I have been ringing around local vets to try and see if they have the Rapidvet- H cards but what are the chances of getting the kittens up to the vets in time for the test before the cord starts drying up?

I have been trying desperately to try and get the nettex colostrum but as its the weekend its not going to be dispatched in time for the kittens arrival she is 62 days, I thought amazon prime might have been an option but its not? I have cimicat would that be okay?


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

lillytheunicorn said:


> I am not sure if vets can blood type off umbilical cord blood


Alvedia quick tests are usually done at home. 
Probably too late to order them now though.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm not sure blood incompatibility problems get worse in cats. In humans, the mother gets exposed to foetal blood cells especially during deliver, miscarriage or abortion and if not treated with anti-D immunoglobulin at the time her body starts making antibodies to Rh -ve blood which cross the placenta in later pregnancies. In cats, the female already has the antibodies and they are in her milk. During the first 12 or so hours after delivery they can pass from the kitten's bowel into it's blood and I've not heard this gets worse with each pregnancy.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

I don't feel I have an option I am actually dreading this as I don't want to lose kittens either way. I have joined a Bsh group on facebook and have had different opinions how long I should keep them away from mums milk obviously as little as possible, some say keep them with her some say take them away and feed them.....

1) How long do they not feed from mum?
2) Is the cimicat ok to feed them as I have ordered the nettex colostrum milk but not sure if it will arrive?

I am more them willing to put the hard work in but of course I want to give them the best possible chance.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> I'm not sure blood incompatibility problems get worse in cats.


They don't


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

gskinner123 said:


> They don't


I took mine that information from Dianne Addie . I presume that been extrapolated from humans as the anti-rhesus antibodies attack the fetus during subsequent pregnancies?

here is an article from the Winn foundation https://www.vin.com/apputil/Project/DefaultAdv1.aspx?pId=99&catId=310&id=2993155
That supports @gskinner123 experience that anti-b antibodies do not cause neonatal Isoerythrolysis. I.e no need to take kittens away from a blood group A (or AB) mum.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

lillytheunicorn said:


> I took mine that information from Dianne Addie . I presume that been extrapolated from humans as the anti-rhesus antibodies attack the fetus during subsequent pregnancies?
> 
> here is an article from the Winn foundation https://www.vin.com/apputil/Project/DefaultAdv1.aspx?pId=99&catId=310&id=2993155
> That supports @gskinner123 experience that anti-b antibodies do not cause neonatal Isoerythrolysis. I.e no need to take kittens away from a blood group A (or AB) mum.


I read the article it is mentioning mating's with B type females to A type toms were NI occurs no mention of Ab type queens to B type toms? so is it basically not mentioning these blood groups because NI doesn't occur
there is so many conflicting answers from so many different people. I would really appreciate gskinners123 opinion as they are a bsh breeder, I'm not saying I don't value anyone else's opinion....


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

I worry a lot about 'opinion' on something that is life and death. My experience is that I have never lost a kitten with BGI from an A type queen (whether ****/heterozygous) to any blood type male.

That is over several decades with three different type A boys. It is not to say of course that I have never never lost a kitten at or within a few days of birth; as breeders we all do. None had a single symptom of BGI.

I find the whole subject very contradictory. You will hear many breeders say that you can "get away with" mating a type B girl to an A stud for her first litter as she won't yet have sufficient anti-A antibodies. That's a very dangerous piece of information. The only time I lost kittens with BGI was unwittingly doing this mating and losing two of five kittens with BGI. It was her first litter.

I know of a number of non UK breeders who routinely test type B queens for anti-A antibody level during pregnancy - over a certain level the breeder will hand feed kittens for a day.

As this test isn't (or wasn't) available in the UK, I wrote to Dr Chris Helps at Langford Vets to ask about the possibility of making it available. His reply was that ALL type B queens have sufficiently high anti-A antibodies to kill their kittens. Countless breeders have mated B girl to A boy for I don't know how long without losing kittens and the breeders on the continent who test, just laughed when I told them Dr Helps' reply. I guess even the experts don't know everything.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Ab girls are A type they just carry B as A is dominant to b. This differs to humans where A & B is co-dominant hence how you get AB blood type. With cats you have 
Type A and genetically A or Ab
Type B and genetically bb

in humans you have (ignoring rhesus etc.)

Type A and genetically AA or Ao
Type B and genetically BB or Bo
Type O and genetically oo
Type AB and genetically AB


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I worry a lot about 'opinion' on something that is life and death. My experience is that I have never lost a kitten with BGI from an A type queen (whether ****/heterozygous) to any blood type male.
> 
> That is over several decades with three different type A boys. It is not to say of course that I have never never lost a kitten at or within a few days of birth; as breeders we all do. None had a single symptom of BGI.
> 
> ...


So basically your saying the kittens will be fine with mum?

You said you have had a Ab queen mate with a B stud and the kittens were all ok, is that mating's of a 3rd and 4th litter to an B stud on all occasions? I know the 1st and 2nd litter will be ok on most occasions.
I want to get this right as I lost a kitten last year to the same mating, and its terrible to watch them fade, I desperately tried to keep it alive she was with mum for the first 24hrs and was fine after that she went down hill, I tried bottle feeding her but nothing worked.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kelzcats said:


> So basically your saying the kittens will be fine with mum?
> 
> You said you have had a Ab queen mate with a B stud and the kittens were all ok, is that mating's of a 3rd and 4th litter to an B stud on all occasions? I know the 1st and 2nd litter will be ok on most occasions.
> I want to get this right as I lost a kitten last year to the same mating, and its terrible to watch them fade, I desperately tried to keep it alive she was with mum for the first 24hrs and was fine after that she went down hill, I tried bottle feeding her but nothing worked.


Having looked at the difference between how rhesus is a problem in humans, and how blood groups are a problem in cats, I don't think you can think the 1st and 2nd litter will be OK.

If you have A kittens to a B queen you need to stop them suckling for 16 hours, as the anti-A is in the queens milk and at first can pass through the gut. After a period of time (hours not days) the gut becomes less 'leaky' and it's safe for the queen to feed her kittens. The woman I know who bred Devon Rex who had this situation took great care over this, including putting the mother in a baby grow during this period so she could be with her kittens.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@kelzcats only you can decide what you are comfortable as the veterinary community haven't come to a consensus with the risk to B type kittens born to A (or Ab) mums. You have the Winn foundation saying there is no risk and Dianne Addie and Chris Helps saying there is.

Most things in human medicine is a risk balance equation for example the risk from having a CT scan is 1 in 400 chance of inducing a fatal cancer compared with the benefit of detecting and being able to treat the disease. The same goes for all medication.

You are best placed to make that decision about your kittens after reading the research and breeders experiences. Do you suspect there may be a cat flu carrier in your home? Your experience with hand feeding kittens, mum and her bonding. These factors can help you make the decision you are happy with.

When Blue was pregnant and really poorly, Our vet wanted her spayed at the same time as her c-section as they didn't want to risk anaesthetising her at a later date but I was told by many breeders who I trust not to as she wouldn't produce and milk. As they had lost litters of kittens or had to hand rear them.
I discussed this with my vet who explained that it was likely the kittens wouldn't suckle if you get iodine on their nipples it tastes funny. Also usually cats who have c-sections are unwell by the time it gets to having a section. Whereas Blue wasn't actually in labour and was put on IV fluids and meds overnight to get her as well as possible ahead of the section. I went ahead with the plan to spay her. She had milk we did give the kittens half feeds but that was always the plan as Blue was a skeleton.


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

kelzcats said:


> So basically your saying the kittens will be fine with mum?
> 
> You said you have had a Ab queen mate with a B stud and the kittens were all ok, is that mating's of a 3rd and 4th litter to an B stud on all occasions? I know the 1st and 2nd litter will be ok on most occasions.
> I want to get this right as I lost a kitten last year to the same mating, and its terrible to watch them fade, I desperately tried to keep it alive she was with mum for the first 24hrs and was fine after that she went down hill, I tried bottle feeding her but nothing worked.


I think only you can make that decision. I have and never will think twice about mating an A type girl to any blood type stud and, as I'm sure folk are sick of hearing me say, I have never lost a kitten from that mating to NI - 'that mating' being an AA or AB girl to an AA, AB or B stud.

I accept that a very few breeders say they have had confirmed cases of BGI from matings which, as has been pointed out, Langford say are perfectly safe. I do not accept that these cases are a result of anti-B antibodies and strongly suspect there are other unknown factors in the blood types triggering NI.

Yes, it is terrible to watch a kitten fade but it is so vitally important, when it is a repeated occurrence from a certain queen or mating, to know why. Why would one attribute NI to a kitten fading with no symptoms of NI? Sadly, there are many, many reasons why kittens fade. NI is just one of them.

It worries me a lot that we are 'teaching' a whole new generation of BSH breeders to blame BGI for kitten deaths. I appreciate that we need far more research into feline blood types and especially more awareness of the mic antigen, but in the meantime we must educate newer breeders that we cannot shrug our shoulders and say 'a rare BGI that shouldn't have happened on paper' but to look at and try to understand the many genetic, viral and bacterial causes of fading kitten.

Sorry to waffle on. Its something I feel very strongly about.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @kelzcats only you can decide what you are comfortable as the veterinary community haven't come to a consensus with the risk to B type kittens born to A (or Ab) mums. You have the Winn foundation saying there is no risk and Dianne Addie and Chris Helps saying there is.
> 
> Most things in human medicine is a risk balance equation for example the risk from having a CT scan is 1 in 400 chance of inducing a fatal cancer compared with the benefit of detecting and being able to treat the disease. The same goes for all medication.
> 
> ...


Mum is a good mum but does need some encouragement the first couple of days I think its just due to the fact she is sore and uncomfortable. I have tried a handful of times over the years to handfeed kittens but this was because they had stopped feeding and fading, I never succeeded they always passed away. That's why i'm a bit apprehensive about doing it.

I will give hand feeding a go but if I feel like it's not working and the kittens are suffering ie: not getting enough milk I will put let them nurse from mum, i'm scared that the milk will go down there lungs. I have the miracle nipple.

No cat flu carriers in the house.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

gskinner123 said:


> I think only you can make that decision. I have and never will think twice about mating an A type girl to any blood type stud and, as I'm sure folk are sick of hearing me say, I have never lost a kitten from that mating to NI - 'that mating' being an AA or AB girl to an AA, AB or B stud.
> 
> I accept that a very few breeders say they have had confirmed cases of BGI from matings which, as has been pointed out, Langford say are perfectly safe. I do not accept that these cases are a result of anti-B antibodies and strongly suspect there are other unknown factors in the blood types triggering NI.
> 
> ...


No I apricate your knowledge and input if people didn't share there experiences where would we be now.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

lillytheunicorn said:


> This is the colostrum I use https://abnobapetstore.co.uk/nettex-lifeline-for-kittens.html
> 
> We used it with Blue's kittens as her milk didn't come in particularly quickly as she had a c-section and some of the kittens weren't particularly lively and suckling well.


Hi lillytheunicorn the nettex colostrum has arrived thank god she is 65 days normally goes 66 with every litter....
You said you have used the colostrum in question it reads on the label first feed in the first 36 hours of kittens life, so is that just one initial feed when they are born or do you give every feed till I put them back with mum? I'm putting the first kitten back to feed after the first 16hrs and the subsequent kitten from the time they were born.
Any tips for hand feeding? I have watched the kitten lady video's on YouTube which are very good and I have the miracle nipple.

I went out yesterday and purchased some baby grows for mum, don't think she will be very happy with that on, she can be quite feisty.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

kelzcats said:


> Hi lillytheunicorn the nettex colostrum has arrived thank god she is 65 days normally goes 66 with every litter....
> You said you have used the colostrum in question it reads on the label first feed in the first 36 hours of kittens life, so is that just one initial feed when they are born or do you give every feed till I put them back with mum? I'm putting the first kitten back to feed after the first 16hrs and the subsequent kitten from the time they were born.
> Any tips for hand feeding? I have watched the kitten lady video's on YouTube which are very good and I have the miracle nipple.
> .


I feed the colostrum until day 2-3 and then mix it with 75/25 cimicat and over the next feeds increase the cimicat percentage, as this would mimic nature as mum would slowly run out of the very high protein and fat milk. So for the first 16 hours I would feed the colostrum.

I love the miracle nipple, the kittens will quite happily suck the plunger down. I would start with a 1ml syringe it's the easiest to have control with. I usually squirt a little bit so the nipple is milky and pop it into their mouth. If they stuck suckling I slowly depress the plunger until they can suck the plunger down. If they are struggling to work it out I very very slowly squeeze some out probably 0.1ml. Leave it 10 seconds and if they are okay, give them another 0.1 ml. I then swap kittens and come back, usually after 2 or 3 attempts they crack the coordination. Mine were a bit dopey from the meds and weren't probably the strongest with Blue having been so unwell.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

lillytheunicorn said:


> I feed the colostrum until day 2-3 and then mix it with 75/25 cimicat and over the next feeds increase the cimicat percentage, as this would mimic nature as mum would slowly run out of the very high protein and fat milk. So for the first 16 hours I would feed the colostrum.
> 
> I love the miracle nipple, the kittens will quite happily suck the plunger down. I would start with a 1ml syringe it's the easiest to have control with. I usually squirt a little bit so the nipple is milky and pop it into their mouth. If they stuck suckling I slowly depress the plunger until they can suck the plunger down. If they are struggling to work it out I very very slowly squeeze some out probably 0.1ml. Leave it 10 seconds and if they are okay, give them another 0.1 ml. I then swap kittens and come back, usually after 2 or 3 attempts they crack the coordination. Mine were a bit dopey from the meds and weren't probably the strongest with Blue having been so unwell.


Is 16hrs without mums milk enough time? I don't want to leave them from her milk too long but long enough to solve the problem.
Did all your kittens survive?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Yes all 5 of mine survived, they are just over a year old now and the girl I have is 5kg. A phot of her from last week.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Hi, mummy cat gave birth to 4 kittens, 1 at 3.30am on Tuesday 21st all went well she seemed to be contracting well but contractions didn't seem strong enough to push the other kittens out, she seemed to settle down and stopped contracting, I thought she was taking break.....

I started hand feeding kitten 1 which was 85g and she latched perfectly, I continued with this as well as trying to look after mum.......

Wednesday still no more babies contracting on and off, I decided to take her to the vet thinking she might need a shot of oxytocin to help with the contractions..... 5pm oxytocin given, brought her home and it all began kitten 2 born at 6.30pm, 122g.........kitten 2 born 7pm, 111g.........kitten 3 born at 7.30, 122g , all done and going well.

Hand feeding all 4 kittens all doing well I have no sleep since Monday absolutely tired but kittens come first, with the kittens being born 19hrs apart hand feeding is going to take more the 24hrs as I thought. I put the baby grow on mum so kittens could stay with her so she could bond, but eventually they kept finding a way of getting in up the sleeves, so I had to take them away, but as it was almost 24hrs of hand feeding up for kitten 1 I could put her back with mum to nurse, so took the baby grow off and kept the other 3 kittens away.

Thursday mum is unwell been sick all day I took her to the vet and they said no temperature no signs of infection and give her a sickness drug, she has seemed to settle but not eating. 7.30pm all kittens back with mum and nursing well..... 43 hours of Hand feeding was really exhausting but worth it to prevent NI, so hopefully no fading kittens.

Thank you to lillytheunicorn for her advice and help with her life saving tips on hand feeding.
Watching the kitten lady on Youtube was so helpful.

I will update later on mum and kittens progress.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Kittens are doing well, mum seems ok in herself but still not eating, she ate two placenter's so not sure if she just not hungry what with the difficult delivery as the last three kittens were big, and the stress of keep going to the vets, have tried to tempt her with cooked chicken and broth, applaws chicken and rice, hills i/d put she wont attempt to eat anything, she is drinking water and I have tried cimicat but wont try it........any advice? has anyone had the same situation? I dont want her to go downhill and don't want to take her back to the vets there is no obvious signs of smelly discharge or brown discharge.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Has the vet scanned her for retained tissue?


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Rufus15 said:


> Has the vet scanned her for retained tissue?


No they said she seemed fine, alert, they thoroughly checked her over her tummy felt soft, no excessive bleeding, no temperature, all placenters come away, they looked complete, i'm no vet but surly with all the oxytocin and the strong contractions it would have got ride of all the placenter and tissue, if she doesn't start eating tomorrow I will take her back to the vets. She is walking around and seems fine in herself.


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## Rufus15 (Dec 4, 2015)

Placentae can still stick to the lining of the horns, it only has to be a mm in size to cause infection which can then be slow acting

As you say, keep an eye and take her in again tomorrow if there's no joy with her eating


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

So mum has eaten some white cod tonight thank god, One of the kittens as looking lethargic and stopped feeding the biggest of the litter he has also lost 8g since last night, I feel very upset as I know the signs all the hard work I put in..... he was the most easiest to syringe feed and would take the most he gained 20g last night and tonight we have lost weight tonight, I managed to get him to nurse from mum with a lot of encouragement, I don't hold out much hope. Back on the two hour night watch putting him on the nipple I have done this many a time. Positive vibes please.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Was the 'sickness injection' safe for lactating cats?
The one I'm familiar with is not recommended for such a situation.

Have you given the lethargic one Nutridrops?


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

I presume it’s cerenia that she was given, it’s not licensed for pregnant or lactating cats but Blue had it when she was pregnant and when she was lactating.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

@kelzcats how is he with syringe feeding now, if he is losing 8 grams I would be tempted to feed him 1/2 feeds. At least he will definitely have enough to give him the energy to suckle. Blue's lost weight, the first day.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> Was the 'sickness injection' safe for lactating cats?
> The one I'm familiar with is not recommended for such a situation.
> 
> Have you given the lethargic one Nutridrops?


First vet who administered the injection said there was a very slight risk of it affecting the kittens less then 2% but he said there wasn't much choice as she was vomiting all day and if he didn't give it to her she would eventually dehydrate and collapse and then would not be able to feed the kittens.
When I called today about it another vet said it was safe.

Yes I give it nutridrops which stimulated it enough to get it to nurse I just let it touch its tongue when it cried,i is that enough? I will try him again at 10pm


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

lillytheunicorn said:


> I presume it's cerenia that she was given, it's not licensed for pregnant or lactating cats but Blue had it when she was pregnant and when she was lactating.


I don't know I will call and ask tomorrow.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

lillytheunicorn said:


> @kelzcats how is he with syringe feeding now, if he is losing 8 grams I would be tempted to feed him 1/2 feeds. At least he will definitely have enough to give him the energy to suckle. Blue's lost weight, the first day.


He was born on Wednesday at 7.30pm and was feeding well gained 20g in the first day put him back with mum Thursday 8pm as the 24hrs was up and he latched straight away but has gone down hill today.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

Fingers crossed for the little boy. X


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

kelzcats said:


> I don't know I will call and ask tomorrow.


They should have explained exactly what she was being given so you could make an informed choice before being administered.
I wouldn't be going in without knowing what treatment I'd be requesting of the vets.

Hope mum picks up and your kittens will be ok


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

spotty cats said:


> They should have explained exactly what she was being given so you could make an informed choice before being administered.
> I wouldn't be going in without knowing what treatment I'd be requesting of the vets.
> 
> Hope mum picks up and your kittens will be ok


The vets did explain fully I couldn't just leave her she was getting more and more poorly I didn't agree lightly to them administering the injection.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

kelzcats said:


> The vets did explain fully I couldn't just leave her she was getting more and more poorly I didn't agree lightly to them administering the injection.


That's good, you said you didn't know what she was given which sounded concerning.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Hi, The kittens are just over a week old and all are doing great including the little man I didn't think was going to make it, I had to put him on mums nipple every 2hrs for 3 days and nights but now he feeds himself and gaining weight lovely, they are all chunky monkeys.


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## lillytheunicorn (Nov 17, 2012)

kelzcats said:


> Hi, The kittens are just over a week old and all are doing great including the little man I didn't think was going to make it, I had to put him on mums nipple every 2hrs for 3 days and nights but now he feeds himself and gaining weight lovely, they are all chunky monkeys.


I am so pleased! How is mum? Could we have a few photos?


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Mum is doing great now.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

So the little blue & white boy has taken a turn for the worse, woke up at 5.20am to him screaming he was lying on his side, I have been trying to bottle feed him but he will not take it. His breathing has become labored I'm taking him to the vet soon. I fear this is kitten fading syndrome what could have gone wrong I'm so terrible upset right now.


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## kelzcats (Aug 1, 2011)

Really devastated my poor baby had to be pts he was very week and was struggling to breath, the vets said he was too small to really do much as he had also stopped feeding and was very weak, I cant stop crying he was 17days old I just dot know what went wrong he was doing so well.

It was the same symptoms of when I have lost a younger baby to NI.........


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

kelzcats said:


> Really devastated my poor baby had to be pts he was very week and was struggling to breath, the vets said he was too small to really do much as he had also stopped feeding and was very weak, I cant stop crying he was 17days old I just dot know what went wrong he was doing so well.
> 
> It was the same symptoms of when I have lost a younger baby to NI.........


Ever so sorry 

What were the symptoms? 'Classic' NI symptoms?


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm so sorry, poor little boy.
Just a thought but could the vet get a drop of blood to confirm NI, or eliminate it?


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## gskinner123 (Mar 10, 2010)

SusieRainbow said:


> I'm so sorry, poor little boy.
> Just a thought but could the vet get a drop of blood to confirm NI, or eliminate it?


It cannot be NI at 17 days old.

As I think I said earlier in this thread, it is so vitally important to investigate kitten deaths (when it is a recurring thing). Kittens fade for any number of reasons. One cannot say 'BGI' (in the absence of BGI symptoms) because a kitten fades - sadly the process of a kitten fading will be identical to any other kitten fading even with different underlying causes of which there are many.


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## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

gskinner123 said:


> It cannot be NI at 17 days old.
> 
> As I think I said earlier in this thread, it is so vitally important to investigate kitten deaths (when it is a recurring thing). Kittens fade for any number of reasons. One cannot say 'BGI' (in the absence of BGI symptoms) because a kitten fades - sadly the process of a kitten fading will be identical to any other kitten fading even with different underlying causes of which there are many.


OK, thanks for explaning.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

kelzcats said:


> So the little blue & white boy has taken a turn for the worse, woke up at 5.20am to him screaming he was lying on his side, I have been trying to bottle feed him but he will not take it. His breathing has become labored I'm taking him to the vet soon. I fear this is kitten fading syndrome what could have gone wrong I'm so terrible upset right now.


So sorry about what happened to him.

Something you can try if there ever is a next time is some sugar of some kind. Honey has worked for me when I had a collapsed kitten, you can buy 'liquid glucose' in the baking aisle. Glucose can be absorbed through the mucus membrane lining the mouth, if the problem is low blood sugar this will work. Of course there are many other things which could cause this.


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