# Wow, the cross breed merchandising machine goes on....



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Sickening 

RARE CAVADOR PUPPIES for sale (labrador/cavalier) The only current litter of these rare puppies in the UK that we know of.Only available in the USA and Australia untill now!! Natural mating between our pedigree KC reg black labrador bitch and our pedigree blenheim cavalier king charles dog.Stay looking like a labrador puppy all of their life without the size issues of a full grown labrador. Classed as Designer Hybrids in the usa .Golden and black available.Dogs and bitches.Deposits being taken now.Only a few left.Prices from £1000.Serious enquiries only please for these EXTREMELLY RARE,NOT TO BE MISSED PUPPIES.....


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

You must have missed the eariler thread :lol: lemme go find it


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-chat/145020-elmo-bear.html

Here :thumbup: :lol:


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

SpringerHusky said:


> You must have missed the eariler thread :lol: lemme go find it


I was thinking the same, that I'd already read it...lol


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> You must have missed the eariler thread :lol: lemme go find it


Yep, been a bit busy these last couple of weeks, but keep trying to pop on and catch up, unsuccessfully.....


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yep, been a bit busy these last couple of weeks, but keep trying to pop on and catch up, unsuccessfully.....


It's hard when people don't label it the same :lol: i'd not worry about it but there's been a fun discussion there :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Yep, marketing gimmicks ahoy. The difference between the name posted on the other thread, was that it is a descriptive name, the Louisiana catahoula leopard dog, is something to describe a dog, not sell it. The majority of the popular names such as cavapoo, pugapoo, jugapoo etc, etc, are created to sell the dog without any knowledge of the breeds used to create it. And that is where the great danger lies, people fall in love with a name, a cute name, and want one. Or am I the only person to ever meet people who are like this??


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Yep, marketing gimmicks ahoy. The difference between the name posted on the other thread, was that it is a descriptive name, the Louisiana catahoula leopard dog, is something to describe a dog, not sell it. The majority of the popular names such as cavapoo, pugapoo, jugapoo etc, etc, are created to sell the dog without any knowledge of the breeds used to create it. And that is where the great danger lies, people fall in love with a name, a cute name, and want one. Or am I the only person to ever meet people who are like this??


I think it's a 50/50 thing. Some people know what they are find in more convenient than saying yeah she's a cavalier king charles spaniel x toy poodle and then the others are the idiots that gets huskies because it looks cute.

I meet lab poodle mixies and always just ask if they are a lab doodle or a gold doodle, it's easier and shorter especially when I don't have the time to hang around.

I have no doubt there's people using it to sell to the idiots. I always grew up with a fool and his money are easily parted and it's true.

On many adverts i've seen wolf dogs which are just huskies x shep and you think how the hell is that a wolf dog. They do it because people look and go omg I want a wolf.

As I said it's 50/50 thing


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Just been reading about this 'breeder' on another forum, the dogs they have are mostly, apparently, rescued direct from puppy farmers, so are ex-breeding stock, that they are continuing to use. How low can some of the scumbags of this earth go


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Just been reading about this 'breeder' on another forum, the dogs they have are mostly, apparently, rescued direct from puppy farmers, so are ex-breeding stock, that they are continuing to use. How low can some of the scumbags of this earth go


:scared: oh my god how awful, those poor dogs  that's really low and makes me feel sick inside


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## sandymere (Jan 4, 2010)

Its a matter of breeding to meet a market and the point of it being a cross breed isnt particularly relevant, rather its people buying dogs for a look or social kudos rather than looking at if the dog is suitable for their needs. A thousand isnt a lot these days for a dog. How many people by a bull breed to look hard or a Labrador to look countrified? Its no different. I dont own a husky as I dont own a sled, I dont own a Labrador as I dont go shooting. If I wanted a pet I would get a pet breed/lap dog but I want a running companion and lamper so I own lurchers. The focus should be on educating people about dogs and their needs to enable them to make informed choices irrespective of the look etc.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

sandymere said:


> Its a matter of breeding to meet a market and the point of it being a cross breed isnt particularly relevant, rather its people buying dogs for a look or social kudos rather than looking at if the dog is suitable for their needs. A thousand isnt a lot these days for a dog. How many people by a bull breed to look hard or a Labrador to look countrified? Its no different. I dont own a husky as I dont own a sled, I dont own a Labrador as I dont go shooting. If I wanted a pet I would get a pet breed/lap dog but I want a running companion and lamper so I own lurchers. The focus should be on educating people about dogs and their needs to enable them to make informed choices irrespective of the look etc.


Completely agree, but I think part of that education has to be dismantling some of these daft names and making sure people know what they are, as well as trying to dispel the absurd fashion trends with people wanting a dog simply because they've seen someone else with one, or just find an advert and think the name's cute. If everyone who bought a cross breed did so because they were educated about what breeds were used, the type of possible dog they may end up with etc, etc, I'd have no problems with everyone saying I've got a Labugapoo etc, etc, but whilst any misleading names and descriptions are used to sell dogs whatever their breeding, I'm afraid I'll always be against it.


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## mummyto3andfurbabies (Jan 26, 2011)

one word, awful!!!!


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## Mandy D (Nov 28, 2010)

It sounds like from one puppy farm to another.


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## Burrowzig (Feb 18, 2009)

Probably 'rare' because nearly everyone else has got more sense than to make this cross.


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## fpjeepy05 (Feb 10, 2011)

Burrowzig said:


> Probably 'rare' because nearly everyone else has got more sense than to make this cross.


Sooo.... I was looking to adopt a Cavador puppy, and while on my Google search I came across this forum by accident. And yes, sadly I registered for this forum solely to post a response to this post.

I'm not sure why this is a rare cross, but if i had to guess i would say it has to do with the fact that one of the dogs is much larger than the other. That is why i have heard the few breeders that actually do breed these, use artificial insemination. That being said I would like to defend this breed as a rather practical breed and a great one at that.

First off I'll defend the "Go to the pound for your mutt argument". I personally don't want a mutt. I want a cavador. There are just as many purebreds in shelters as there are mutts, and I have currently been looking for a Cavalier / Lab or Cavalier / Golden mix for two years on petfinder to no avail. What makes your purebred better than my future mutt? They all were mutts at one point... these breeds haven't been around forever. The fact that purebreds are in a sense inbreeds makes then genetically weaker or more susceptible to genetic disorders and disease. See Wikipedia Hybrid Vigor.

Now why would someone want a Cavador. Not all of use can accommodate a large dog. Some have apartments, or limited yard space, or would just prefer a smaller dog. However maybe not all small breeds are appealing. I like the Cavador because I like both parents. Personally I think Cavaliers have some of the best temperaments / personalities of any dogs. They were bred as lap dogs. Beautiful coat and beautiful temperament. When those are two of the major bred goals that's a plus. I think *generally* Labs have a great temperament/personality as well. Cavaliers I think are really one of those things you get what you pay for breeds. That being said they are expensive, but I think it is generally worth it to pay the extra to get a genetically superior Cocker Spaniel (No offense to the Cocker Spaniel owners) Now labs, on the other hand can be less expensive (American Labs particularly) which by the same principle, might mean a genetically inferior dog, but either way a Cavador should be less than a Cavalier. Basic principle why the Cockalier is modestly popular breed. This opens a new market, people who want great genetics (minimally diseased genetics) at a discounted price. It is lucrative to breeders for the same reason. Cavador genetics may not be worth the high dollar, but they still create cash flow by selling less expensive dogs without deflating the value of there precious Cavaliers.

Labs I think are all bred on the heavy side of breed standards nowadays and are a little too large. And Cavaliers have always been a small bred and there frame can be a bit fragile or feminine. (All my opinions.) So in between seems perfect. Cavaliers coat can be a little needy, labs a little course. In between... again perfect. Cavaliers ears can be one the longer side labs are a little shorter. Cavador, Labalier, Comfort Retriever, or whatever you want to call it, I think it is a prefect bred for me, but that by no means it is a perfect bred for everyone. That being said I'm not telling you you can't buy your purebred ... Don't tell me I can buy my Mutt! 

Thank you for your time.


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

fpjeepy05 said:


> Sooo.... I was looking to adopt a Cavador puppy, and while on my Google search I came across this forum by accident. And yes, sadly I registered for this forum solely to post a response to this post.
> 
> I'm not sure why this is a rare cross, but if i had to guess i would say it has to do with the fact that one of the dogs is much larger than the other. That is why i have heard the few breeders that actually do breed these, use artificial insemination. That being said I would like to defend this breed as a rather practical breed and a great one at that.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that you have been misguided to think that all pedigrees are unhealthy inbreds but this is just not true. Crossbreeds are just as likely to get health problems as pedigrees. Both need health testing, especially if a cavalier is one of the breeds in the mix. Cavaliers can pass on heart problems, brain problems and some hip and elbow problems too. Labs can pass on hip and elbow problems. SO you could end up with a pup with major hip and elbow problems, and heart and brain problems. Mixing breeds does NOT reduce health problems.

Many crossbreeds are fine in my view, however I refuse to except mixes where the size difference is extreme, such as the cavalier x lab. This isn't fair on either dog and why should AI have to be used? Doesn't this show that this mix isn't variable? Hopefully the mother is the lab, otherwise a cavalier mother would have many difficulties producing lab sized pups.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

fpjeepy05 said:


> Sooo.... I was looking to adopt a Cavador puppy, and while on my Google search I came across this forum by accident. And yes, sadly I registered for this forum solely to post a response to this post.
> 
> I'm not sure why this is a rare cross, but if i had to guess i would say it has to do with the fact that one of the dogs is much larger than the other. That is why i have heard the few breeders that actually do breed these, use artificial insemination. That being said I would like to defend this breed as a rather practical breed and a great one at that.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately on this forum a lot of people are against crossbreeding. So as soon as anyone mentions that the are going for a particular cross then the usual sweeping statements are spouted off like if you wanted a cross why not get a rescue or if you wanted a Cavador why not get a Cav or a lab? etc...

It's hard for a lot of them to grasp the concept that there are many people who prefer crosses to pures and that people want a certain cross so will research and look into the two parent breeds to see if that cross is a good option for them.

I have yet to find anyone on here actually asking what my crossbreeds are like to own.

These subjects are often inflaming hence why a crossbreed rule was brought in- though it is not usually adhered too.

Some on here also enjoy " crossbreed baiting". I have been told a few times not to rise to people when I defend my crosses as they are always wanting to provoke a reaction.

Sad isn't it?


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

sandymere said:


> A thousand isnt a lot these days for a dog.


It's actually considerably more than you would expect to pay for most "pet quality" pedigree puppies ... from good breeders.


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## Tollisty (May 27, 2008)

Personally, I don't have a problem with cross breeding if it is done responsibly and all heath testing done for both breeds. and as much research is done on the health of both parents relatives as if you were breeding pedigree puppies. And they are not advertised as rare and given stupid names and called a breed.
You don't know what you will get with a crossbreed puppy. It could look like either parent or a mix of the two. I know labxpoodles with poodle coats, lab coats and wiry coats. I know ones that look just like a lab and those that look like a poodle. You can't say what a crossbreed will look like or what it's temperament/behaviour will be like.
Crossbreeds can be healthier than there purebred parents unless both breeds carry the same disease.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Personally I think that puppy farm may use dogs for breeding crossbreeds that would never be used for pure breed.because they do not comply well with a specification of given breed...say mayby wrong size or coat..but if it to be mixed anyway? who cares?Dam might be small for lab or cav too big..but then?

But that undermines the effort of true breeders? That as to the farming and fashion, not meant to offend true breeders aiming to produce new, useful breeds...
I own a mutt from the pond..but then I like taking chances...


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

No a puppy farmer would still breed purebreeds from that stock. Not to say that a bad crossbreeder wouldn't either.

There are just as many ( if not more) purebreed puppy Farmers as there are crossbreeds.

Have a look on manytears website as they take in a lot of exbreeding bitches and studs from puppyfarmers it is heartbreaking.

Often you see pups on there too where they are unsold, the runts or have heart problems or overshot jaw etc... and they are all mainly purebreed pups like Labs and Cavaliers, although I have seen poodle x st Bernard pups on there too.

They are based in Wales so a high puppyfarm area. You will often find numerous labs, collies and cavaliers on there.

The labs look the saddest to me with their sorrowful faces and their poor little bellies and teats almost dragging on the floor


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

fpjeepy05 said:


> Sooo.... I was looking to adopt a Cavador puppy, and while on my Google search I came across this forum by accident. And yes, sadly I registered for this forum solely to post a response to this post.
> 
> I'm not sure why this is a rare cross, but if i had to guess i would say it has to do with the fact that one of the dogs is much larger than the other. That is why i have heard the few breeders that actually do breed these, use artificial insemination. That being said I would like to defend this breed as a rather practical breed and a great one at that.
> 
> ...


First of all, it is not a breed, it's a cross breed, and in this instance it is obviously being done just to sell as many of the pups as they can, marketing them as rare to try and draw people in to buy one. If you think for one minute, that the advert I posted at the beginning of this thread, is at all an ethical breeder, then you are very sadly mistaken.

Secondly, no-one is telling YOU anything, YOU chose to read this thread, and respond, which is fine, because it brings it to the attention of more and more people, who will, I hope support people breeding ethically, and buy their pup from someone who cares about health, temperament and conformation, whether pedigree or cross breed.

Thirdly, wow, wikipaedia strikes again, hybrid vigour is a lot more complicated than just crossing two different breeds of dog, to get a healthier cross breed. Behind many of the pedigree breeds today, there are other breeds, from the days when they were bred to type. So there are still many genetic links between various breeds, meaning that it is possible for both parents of two separate breeds to genetically carry the same diseases, and pass them on. Unfortunately, many who cross breed, use hybrid vigour as an excuse for not health testing at all, so you really don't know the health status of that type of dog for sure. Where as many of those who breed pedigrees do health test their breeding stock, for conditions that are known to be a problem within a breed, they also have a list of predecessors, which gives a much better idea of whether there any associated health problems within different lines. Of course, you don't get this at all with cross breeds, I would imagine it's very rare indeed for anyone who does cross breed to know exactly what is behind their dogs.

So, finally, you go and buy your Cavador, but I hope you support an ethical cross breeder, because thousands upon thousands of dogs are put to sleep simply because they are unwanted, destroyed for existing 


Cockerpoo lover said:


> No a puppy farmer would still breed purebreeds from that stock. Not to say that a bad crossbreeder wouldn't either.
> 
> There are just as many ( if not more) purebreed puppy Farmers as there are crossbreeds.
> 
> ...


Yes, there are a lot of pedigrees that are puppy farmed as well, chocolate Labs are, as I've said many times, a victim of this appalling practice. No-one can afford to be complacent when buying a pup, it's just as important if buying a pedigree pup to ensure all the health tests etc are in place, and that the breeder is ethical and responsible about how they breed.


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> There are just as many ( if not more) purebreed puppy Farmers as there are crossbreeds.


Must agree with this. Dogs4us (puppy pet shop in this area) stocks pen after pen of "pedigree" dogs. Everything from labs, to yorkshire terriers, malamutes to elk hounds (believe it or not). So it seems the puppy farmers are just as willing to breed the pedigrees.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> Must agree with this. Dogs4us (puppy pet shop in this area) stocks pen after pen of "pedigree" dogs. Everything from labs, to yorkshire terriers, malamutes to elk hounds (believe it or not). So it seems the puppy farmers are just as willing to breed the pedigrees.


Yes those places need closing down hence why there are many protests at these sorts of places.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

I can remember when "designer crossbreeds" were just unheard of here in the UK, sure plenty of other mongrels, but not to my knowledge specifically bred and chosen to appease pet owners.

I remember when I got internet access being amazed at all the dogs being crossbred in America and hoping it would not happen here, but alas ...

My father used to say years ago "What happens in the USA, happens here 10 years down the line." Sadly very true ... more or less ..."Monkey see, monkey do ... "


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

I am for one who doses not agree with lab to cavaliers, I agree with crosses within reason. The size difference and temperments are two whole different things. I don't bash crossbreeds but will happily bash people breeding cavaliers to labradors, it's not right 

If anyone gets puppies from the breeder listed well they might aswell sign the death cerfticate to a shelter dog. It's bad breeders who are respoianble for so many dogs in the shelter from pure to cross.

If A.I is needed to make this cross then that's even more wrong  i'm not a big fan of A.I (I can make some exceptions like over seas etc) but I know this often a method also used for english bulldogs when the stud is to big for the dam :scared: it just screams profit

A good breeder needs to also consider health tests, which sadly many people have no clue what they are so are confused when their perfect cross breed gets sick because they were in belif that because you cross breed two dogs that they will be healthy, which is wrong. I remember before the silly bbc program many people thought because pedigrees were kc registerd that meant they were healthy, also wrong.

It's so sad people just have no idea.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> I can remember when "designer crossbreeds" were just unheard of here in the UK, sure plenty of other mongrels, but not to my knowledge specifically bred and chosen to appease pet owners.
> 
> I remember when I got internet access being amazed at all the dogs being crossbred in America and hoping it would not happen here, but alas ...
> 
> My father used to say years ago "What happens in the USA, happens here 10 years down the line." Sadly very true ... more or less ..."Monkey see, monkey do ... "


Well if you are blaming America for all the Designer crossbreeding then

*Hooray for America*:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


zipadee do da zipade day my oh my what a wonderful day


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Love how they state the lab is KC reg but not the cavalier. 

These are breeders I hate seriously....no doubt unhealth tested and £1000? You can get any pedigree KC reg dog for that much that comes from top breeders who health test and give life long support.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Well if you are blaming America for all the Designer crossbreeding then
> 
> *Hooray for America*:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> ...


Well cockerpoos are american, Labradoodles australian and sprollies & sprockers are english :lol:


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

fpjeepy05 said:


> That being said I would like to defend this breed as a rather practical breed and a great one at that.


It is not a breed it is a cross of two breeds one of which has alot of health problems.



fpjeepy05 said:


> First off I'll defend the "Go to the pound for your mutt argument". I personally don't want a mutt. I want a cavador. There are just as many purebreds in shelters as there are mutts, and I have currently been looking for a Cavalier / Lab or Cavalier / Golden mix for two years on
> petfinder to no avail. What makes your purebred better than my future mutt?


Why do you want one though? Why not get a cavalier? Why not get a lab? There are always smaller labs around. And you are going to buy from a cross breeder health tests are important NOT CHECKS tests.



fpjeepy05 said:


> They all were mutts at one point... these breeds haven't been around forever. The fact that purebreds are in a sense inbreeds makes then genetically weaker or more susceptible to genetic disorders and disease. See Wikipedia Hybrid Vigor.


Really? And what do you think a cavador is? Its a mix of two PEDIGREE dogs who have no doubt had inbreeding in both of their lines at some point. So a cross is just as likely to get sick of such a thing.

The fact that most cross breeders do not health test makes cross's even more likely to have illness's because good breeders health test. I have 3 kc registered pedigree's 1 cross and 1 pedigree (no papers) why are my 3 kc registered pedigree dogs so healthy? Because they come from health tested parents. Its a misconception that pedigree's are in ill-health.



fpjeepy05 said:


> Now why would someone want a Cavador. Not all of use can accommodate a large dog. Some have apartments, or limited yard space, or would just prefer a smaller dog. However maybe not all small breeds are appealing. I like the Cavador because I like both parents. Personally I think Cavaliers have some of the best temperaments / personalities of any dogs. They were bred as lap dogs. Beautiful coat and beautiful temperament. When those are two of the major bred goals that's a plus. I think *generally* Labs have a great temperament/personality as well. Cavaliers I think are really one of those things you get what you pay for breeds.


You do know that the size isnt a 100% definate, it can come grow to the size of a lab. Like all cross breeds no two are the same.

So cavaliers are very sick dogs (I know I have one) and should be health tested for many thing before breeding. As should labs. Before you try to defend the "breed" take a look into the breeders.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Unfortunately on this forum a lot of people are against crossbreeding. So as soon as anyone mentions that the are going for a particular cross then the usual sweeping statements are spouted off like if you wanted a cross why not get a rescue or if you wanted a Cavador why not get a Cav or a lab? etc...
> 
> It's hard for a lot of them to grasp the concept that there are many people who prefer crosses to pures and that people want a certain cross so will research and look into the two parent breeds to see if that cross is a good option for them.
> 
> ...


I dont want to sound rude but why try to turn every thread into a argument? £1000 for pups from no doubt unhealth tested parents. If that was a pedigree breeder not only the pedigree owners/breeders on here but the cross owners would be all over it like a rash.

The fact that many people seem to think pedigree's are all in ill health is rather sad because that lines the pockets of poor back yard breeders.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> *I dont want to sound rude but why try to turn every thread into a argument?* £1000 for pups from no doubt unhealth tested parents. If that was a pedigree breeder not only the pedigree owners/breeders on here but the cross owners would be all over it like a rash.
> 
> The fact that many people seem to think pedigree's are all in ill health is rather sad because that lines the pockets of poor back yard breeders.


Pot kettle black


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont want to sound rude but why try to turn every thread into a argument? £1000 for pups from no doubt unhealth tested parents. If that was a pedigree breeder not only the pedigree owners/breeders on here but the cross owners would be all over it like a rash.
> 
> The fact that many people seem to think pedigree's are all in ill health is rather sad because that lines the pockets of poor back yard breeders.


Well said shetlandlover on all levels :thumbup:

I totally agree with everything you have stated.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Pot kettle black


This is a debate on the original post. £1000 for cavadors?

I have no intentions to argue over a silly thing like this.

You are turning it into "everyone on here hates cross breeds" which is just untrue. How many times have we all said its not the cross we dislike but the breeders?


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Amethyst said:


> Well said shetlandlover on all levels :thumbup:
> 
> I totally agree with everything you have said ...


Do yourself a favour and give your tongue a break :lol:


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I dont want to sound rude but why try to turn every thread into a argument? £1000 for pups from no doubt unhealth tested parents. If that was a pedigree breeder not only the pedigree owners/breeders on here but the cross owners would be all over it like a rash.
> 
> The fact that many people seem to think pedigree's are all in ill health is rather sad because that lines the pockets of poor back yard breeders.


great post.

it's very sad that many people think all pedigree are unhealthy, which just isn't the case. If the parents aren't health tested and the parents have bad conformation, then the pups, crossbred or purebred, can have problems.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> great post.
> 
> it's very sad that many people think all pedigree are unhealthy, which just isn't the case. If the parents aren't health tested and the parents have bad conformation, then the pups, crossbred or purebred, can have problems.


Exactly.

The level of inbreeding in pedigree's over the years is huge however breeding two different breeds together to create a cross doesnt make it healthy...because both pedigree's will have had a certain level of in breeding. 
Kai has non in his 5 gen however there is no doubt in my mind that he has had inbreeding somewhere in his line.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

shetlandlover said:


> You are turning it into "everyone on here hates cross breeds" which is just untrue. How many times have we all said its not the cross we dislike but the breeders?


It's not the poor dogs fault, I totally agree with you. It's those who exploit two popular breeds for their own gain .... ££££'s


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> You are turning it into "everyone on here hates cross breeds" which is just untrue. How many times have we all said its not the cross we dislike but the breeders?


completely agree. I, myself, have no problem with crossbreeds as long as they are bred responsibly and ethically, ie the size difference between the parent breeds are not too extreme and the parents are fully health tested. I would also only agree with purebreds being bred responsibly and ethically too, with the parents fully health tested.

What I dislike is people breeding, crossbreed or purebreed, unethically with no health tests and in the case of crossbreeds, the size difference is extreme, like with the cavalier x lab.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> This is a debate on the original post. £1000 for cavadors?
> 
> You are turning it into "everyone on here hates cross breeds" which is just untrue. How many times have we all said its not the cross we dislike but the breeders?


I have just supported the Cavador person and am not arguing with you- your the one who is trying to cause problems.

and on this instance it isn't just the breeder you don't like but the dog.

Now I don't agree with all crosses either. However if you want to help people understand about their choices then have a polite discussion as to why a Cavador cross may not be a good thing.

Go on the attack and making sweeping statements is of course going to get the OP's back up.

Where as a polite informative conversation may reap better rewards.

They may not understand about health tests- so explain that without being judgemental in their choices.

I would much rather listen to you SL when you are being calm and giving proper facts then when you come out with sweeping statements such as:

If you wanted a cav get a cav if you want a lab then get a lab. This person clearly told you that was not the case then why repeat it?


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> completely agree. I, myself, have no problem with crossbreeds as long as they are bred responsibly and ethically, ie the size difference between the parent breeds are not too extreme and the parents are fully health tested. I would also only agree with purebreds being bred responsibly and ethically too, with the parents fully health tested.
> 
> What I dislike is people breeding, crossbreed or purebreed, unethically with no health tests and in the case of crossbreeds, the size difference is extreme, like with the cavalier x lab.


I agree with everything you said. rep coming your way.

The fact is the pups could grow to be the size of a lab. No one tells them that though...


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I have just supported the OP and am not arguing with you- your the one who is trying to cause problems.
> 
> and on this instance it isn't just the breeder you don't like but the dog.
> 
> ...


I am perfectly calm, having a nice glass of sunny delight while waiting for my granddad to pick me up.

I dont mind cavadors...cant say I have met one however I like cavs and labs.

My issue is £1000 for what? A dog riddled with potential health problems ranging from hip dysplacia to Luxating Patella but you dont want to see that?

The OP is sleeping lion not the guy who posted about getting a cavador.

I have enough facts to back up any discussion about the poor breeding of pedigree's and cross breeds to know that :

1) the pups will not all be the size of a cav...what a horror it will be when it grows to big and gets dumped in a rescue.

2) the parents wont be health tested...because they are "rare".

So buying a dog based on size when the size differs dramaticly is silly.

12 months from now it will be to big and have all sorts of health issues. (heart murmur, Luxating Patella, HD) then were will the dog be? PTS? in a rescue?

My issue with this is as always is...no health tests and using 1 very very sickly breed of dog to make money.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Do yourself a favour and give your tongue a break :lol:


Maybe do yourself a favour don't be so rude and stop thinking everyone is out to get your beloved crosses 

This whole crossbreeding scheme is getting bloody ridiculous. If someone wants a cockerpoo, labradoodle, goldendoodle whatever then thats their choice I have no right to argue it but they are what they are a CROSS, therefore should be sold as such e.g. £400 MAX. £1000 for a dog that doesn't work or really have a purpose other to be a companion, a dog that has only been around 5 minutes and no real thought put into it's breeding. Pfft, gotta be having a laugh right? We sell our pups from champion to champion working parents for £600 max.

And Fred... Just cause it's crossed with a cav don't mean it's going to stay small mate. It's a cross it could turn out like either parent.


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Do yourself a favour and give your tongue a break :lol:





Cockerpoo lover said:


> I have just supported the OP and am not arguing with you- your the one who is trying to cause problems.
> 
> and on this instance it isn't just the breeder you don't like but the dog.
> 
> ...


To be fair the first quote isn't exactly the way to win hearts and minds either is it :lol: 

This debate goes round and round in circles (which is probably why this subject matter is banned) however the Original Post and topic on this thread was aimed at the unscrupulous way crappy breeders market these types of dogs, whether you agree with designer crossing or not you have to see that that is wrong.

With the best will in the world the advert posted is very very unlikely to be from a decent breeder and more likely to be from some BYB with pound signs at the forefront and the dogs and buyers of the dogs best interests firmly at the bottom of the list of priorities.

These type of ads are exploitative and i think that is the point the OP was making rather than just an excuse to bash a crossbreed 

Thats just how i see it and i don't sit on either side of the fence


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I agree with everything you said. rep coming your way.
> 
> The fact is the pups could grow to be the size of a lab. No one tells them that though...


You don't know that they are not told that though just guessing? (I am talking about the poster who is wanting a cavadors breeder.)

The breeder may have said it could grow to the size of a lab. I mean even I would be  if the mum was the Cav :scared:

I don't know about this cross other then my initial reaction of the difference in the size of the breeds- so I don't want to comment too much until I know all the facts.

Now with Labradoodles they are normally the size of a lab and not the poodle and with Cockapoos they are the size of the cocker not the poodle.

They may be exceptions but the normal height for a cockapoo is between 12-16 " and everyone that I have come across is this height. So although a cross you can get a pretty good picture of height.

Mu Cavapoo breeder was pretty much spot on as to how big my girl would grow and even when she would come into season.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Good to be reminded why I have cockerpoo on "ignore" :thumbup:


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> You don't know that they are not told that though just guessing? (I am talking about the poster who is wanting a cavadors breeder.)
> 
> The breeder may have said it could grow to the size of a lab. I mean even I would be  if the mum was the Cav :scared:
> 
> ...


The fact the guy who wanted a cavador said that he picked that because he didnt want a lab sized dog says it all.



> Now why would someone want a Cavador. Not all of use can accommodate a large dog. Some have apartments, or limited yard space, or would just prefer a smaller dog.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> You don't know that they are not told that though just guessing? (I am talking about the poster who is wanting a cavadors breeder.)
> 
> The breeder may have said it could grow to the size of a lab. I mean even I would be  if the mum was the Cav :scared:
> 
> ...


Maybe thats because Labs are bred to standards as are goldens, then cockers to mini poodles. So all of similar size. And what about the mini labradoodles? And the last bit well thats just pure luck.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Now with Labradoodles they are normally the size of a lab and not the poodle and with Cockapoos they are the size of the cocker not the poodle.


Surely that would depend on the size of the poodle use? Standard, min or toy?


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I am perfectly calm, having a nice glass of sunny delight while waiting for my granddad to pick me up.
> 
> I dont mind cavadors...cant say I have met one however I like cavs and labs.
> 
> ...


Yes I did get the OP wrong I meant that new person who wanted a cavador.

I also agree £1k is ridiculous and I don't like the size difference either.

But I wouldn't put it in a way they may cause offence to a person who quite clearly has given this dog some thought.

As I have said inform someone of the health probs she may not be aware.

She obviously must have felt very offended to just join this forum to make a post.

And whilst we may not agree on her choice- I think it could be done in a better way.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Yes I did get the OP wrong I meant that new person who wanted a cavador.
> 
> I also agree £1k is ridiculous and I don't like the size difference either.
> 
> ...


Then she/he is offended easily. Since I was not involved in the thread until after that post however the thread seemed calm.

How much offence have you caused over the past few days though?
First making a general sweeping statement like this:



Cockerpoo lover said:


> None of us want our oodles to be recognised by KC.:scared:
> 
> We don't want our breeds to be inbred and ruined so they have to fit a set standard based more on aesthetics.
> 
> Some people like dogs to be slightly different and not carbon copies.


And a down right rude one like this:



Cockerpoo lover said:


> Do yourself a favour and give your tongue a break :lol:


So you can be rude to Amethyst for agreeing with me.
And be rude about pedigree's....

But we cant discuss how its a bad idea to mix a cavalier and a lab nor talk about the poor breeding of designer cross's? But we can discuss the poor breeding of pedigrees?:confused1:

I know all I want is to discuss what sleeping lion first put up. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Patterdale_lover said:


> M*aybe do yourself a favour don't be so rude and stop thinking everyone is out to get your beloved crosses
> *
> This whole crossbreeding scheme is getting bloody ridiculous. If someone wants a cockerpoo, labradoodle, goldendoodle whatever then thats their choice I have no right to argue it but they are what they are a CROSS, therefore should be sold as such e.g. £400 MAX. £1000 for a dog that doesn't work or really have a purpose other to be a companion, a dog that has only been around 5 minutes and no real thought put into it's breeding. Pfft, gotta be having a laugh right? We sell our pups from champion to champion working parents for £600 max.
> 
> And Fred... Just cause it's crossed with a cav don't mean it's going to stay small mate. It's a cross it could turn out like either parent.


I'm not but then you all equally vocal if anyone says anything about pedigrees so it does work both ways.

I am a fair person and I felt sorry for the person who wanted a Cavador for the comments that had been made.

I would have also done the same if a person came on wanting a pedigree dog that got similar comments on.

I'm just a caring person and I hate it when people get upset if they are feeling got at for their choices.

We all make mistakes? and should be supportive of each other.

The tones used by people including yourself "oodles sold for £400 max" does nothing but get people wanting to buy crosses backs up. Yes they can be expensive and I myself agree that they should be sold for the price of their pure parents and no more.

But I would never tell you how much to pay for your dogs- so even if someone did want to pay £1k isn't it their choice? whether we agree or not?

I also agree £1k is far too much but that's just me but I wouldn't admonish someone paying that if that's the dog they want and can afford it.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Then she/he is offended easily. Since I was not involved in the thread until after that post however the thread seemed calm.
> 
> How much offence have you caused over the past few days though?
> First making a general sweeping statement like this:
> ...


Why do you keep bringing up old posts that are completely out of context and have been explained to you?????
How much offence I have caused so have you and many others to me and others??

Amethyst has done nothing but be rude to me in all the other threads with her comments referring me to Jemima but hey you don't say she is rude and all her sarcasm to me and johnderlondon???

so a bit of sarcasm back tough couldn't give a ****.

Oh and another thing:

* I also own a pedigree *


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Am I the only here that thinks it's strange we make such a big deal about paying 1k for our ideal choice in dog that could last between 12-18 years yet we forked out what 30-50k? for car that provides no com panionship nbut only gets us from a to b? 

If people want to pay £50-£2,000 for a dog that's thier choice, why should it matter if it's cross or not. If just as much love and care has gone into it then who the hell cares.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

You know maybe, just maybe, those who feel the need to so aggressively defend their crossbreeds, just don't feel as secure about there choice as they profess to be ...

If they feel the need to resort to downright nasty comments and ranting, they have lost the respect of anyone involved in the debate ... In my eyes


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I'm not but then you all equally vocal if anyone says anything about pedigrees so it does work both ways.
> 
> I am a fair person and I felt sorry for the person who wanted a Cavador for the comments that had been made.
> 
> ...


It is very much their choice and i agree that it is ludicrous and i hate the way crappy breeders exploit that. I don't have an issue with £1000 for a genuinely rare, well bred puppy if thats what people want and can afford it so be it however these ads are exploitative and encourage more and more puppyfarmers to churn out crappy dogs for maximum profit. Unfortunately for your argument these sorts of prices do seem to apply to the designer crosses  (PS i like Cockerpoos )


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> I'm not but then you all equally vocal if anyone says anything about pedigrees so it does work both ways.
> 
> I am a fair person and I felt sorry for the person who wanted a Cavador for the comments that had been made.
> 
> ...




Maybe because it exploits the dogs? Lines the breeders pockets? and first and foremost is obviously a really bad sign of breeders in it for the money and not the welfare of the dog. So in you saying "It's their choice" you're actually saying it's their choice to buy from a byb and i support that fully. Where as our point is not that we don't like/support crosses its we don't like/support BAD BREEDERS. Jeeze...How many times man.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> Why do you keep bringing up old posts that are completely out of context and have been explained to you?????
> How much offence I have caused so have you and many others to me and others??
> 
> Amethyst has done nothing but be rude to me in all the other threads with her comments referring me to Jemima but hey you don't say she is rude and all her sarcasm to me and johnderlondon???
> ...


My point being you have been down right rude.

And so? I own a cross but you still think I have it in for them.

What I dont understand is many of us want a discussion/debate on cross breeding whihc is not allowed because people kick up a fuss, yet we can discuss pedgirees all we like? Makes no sense.

I keep bringing it up because no matter what context you put that quote into its still rude and uncalled for.

All I want to do is discuss the OP's post however you started turning it into a everyone on here hates cross breeds thread....which is untrue and you know it.

Now can we have a calm debate without getting silly, childish, and petty?
We are all adults on here.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't want to get into another interminable and boring argument about the rights and wrongs of crossbreeding, with cockerpoo (and probably Elmo later on) trying to turn it into yet another "you hate me and my dogs/you hate crossbreeds" thread, so I'm just going to comment that a cavalier/labrador cross seems so wrong on so many levels - size of the two breeds, temperament, genetic disorders - that I really can't see any reason why anyone would want to breed them, except for money. I presume that the only way the two can be mated is for the bitch to be the labrador - at least I hope no-one will be stupid enough to try to use a cavalier bitch mated to a labrador - and surely that can't be a good premise for a cross.


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## LostGirl (Jan 16, 2009)

i really dont like seeing the words RARE in adds to me it just means they are adding £££ to the price 

sadly if the cav's havnt been health tested surely thats adding a possible strain to a large heart if the cavador takes after the lab in height and size? 

Mine are alot larger then a springer, they are taller and heavier this was known to us when we brought zeb that he would more then likely turn out closer to malamute size Unlike this advert which one of its sellimg points is a puppy sized lab  people buying this cross might have a big shock when their "puppy" sized dog actually turns out to be more lab size and weight!


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Daynna said:


> i really dont like seeing the words RARE in adds to me it just means they are adding £££ to the price
> 
> sadly if the cav's havnt been health tested surely thats adding a possible strain to a large heart if the cavador takes after the lab in height and size?
> 
> Mine are alot larger then a springer, they are taller and heavier this was known to us when we brought zeb that he would more then likely turn out closer to malamute size Unlike this advert which one of its sellimg points is a puppy sized lab  people buying this cross might have a big shock when their "puppy" sized dog actually turns out to be more lab size and weight!


Indeed and I warned everyone that Maya was small for her breed and they could easily turn out 2x her size.

I had somone come to look at the puppies who wanted a springer sized dog and after my warning she decided against it because she didn't feel she could cope with a dog that large.

and although they are an unusal cross, I never once put rare :scared:


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

RAINYBOW said:


> It is very much their choice and i agree that it is ludicrous and i hate the way crappy breeders exploit that. I don't have an issue with £1000 for a genuinely rare, well bred puppy if thats what people want and can afford it so be it however these ads are exploitative and encourage more and more puppyfarmers to churn out crappy dogs for maximum profit. Unfortunately for your argument these sorts of prices do seem to apply to the designer crosses  (PS i like Cockerpoos )


To be honest I wonder how many do sell at these £lk prices?

I mean I wanted a bulldog but there are around £2k mark- so that was a no-no.
Maltese terriers fetch high prices and pugs and French bulldogs etc..

So price does affect our choices.

You would think a puppy farmer would sell cheaply and a quick turnaround than £1k as especially in todays climate when everyone is tightening their belts.


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> To be honest I wonder how many do sell at these £lk prices?
> 
> I mean I wanted a bulldog but there are around £2k mark- so that was a no-no.
> Maltese terriers fetch high prices and pugs and French bulldogs etc..
> ...


Yeah you would think so but not when they have their hands on these "rare" dogs


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Daynna said:


> i really dont like seeing the words RARE in adds to me it just means they are adding £££ to the price
> 
> !


I agree. And people are quite willing to pay hugely inflated prices - and boast about how much they paid as well :scared: - for anything with a "rare" label. When people enquire about bergamasco pups and are told they are around £750, the first reaction is always amazement that the price isn't in the thousands because they are so rare (only 30-ish in the country and litters are as rare as hen's teeth - the progeny are now 3 years old from the last litter to be born). But one of the reasons we try to keep the price low is so that people who are looking for status-symbol expensive dogs -and people who are looking to get such a dog to breed from and make money - are not attracted.


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree. And people are quite willing to pay hugely inflated prices - and boast about how much they paid as well :scared: - for anything with a "rare" label.


I think that this just about the "gist" of it 

At one time having a pedigree puppy was pretty unusual in many areas, to have one as a pet meant you probably had "money" 

Now pedigree dogs are the norm, so if you want to be a bit different, stand out in from the crowd in the park, at companion dog shows etc. You need to have a "Designer Dog" the cuter the dog and name the better 

If it costs more than the average pedigree then all the better of course and if it's "rare" to boot then all the more kudos to the owner ... Or so they think


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> I agree. And people are quite willing to pay hugely inflated prices - and boast about how much they paid as well :scared: - for anything with a "rare" label. When people enquire about bergamasco pups and are told they are around £750, the first reaction is always amazement that the price isn't in the thousands because they are so rare (only 30-ish in the country and litters are as rare as hen's teeth - the progeny are now 3 years old from the last litter to be born). But one of the reasons we try to keep the price low is so that people who are looking for status-symbol expensive dogs -and people who are looking to get such a dog to breed from and make money - are not attracted.


Wow that's cheaper than kooikers, when i looked into them they were about a £1,000. I'm not which is rarer though? since i've seen neither where I live i'd have no clue :lol:

I get sick of seeing rare blue staffs, rare merle chihuahua or Rare pocket beagle  you know for fact those dogs are from bad breeding


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

SpringerHusky said:


> I get sick of seeing rare blue staffs, rare merle chihuahua or Rare pocket beagle  you know for fact those dogs are from bad breeding


I have seen "Tea Cup Terriers" for sale. What on earth are they :thumbdown:


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## RAINYBOW (Aug 27, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> To be honest I wonder how many do sell at these £lk prices?
> 
> I mean I wanted a bulldog but there are around £2k mark- so that was a no-no.
> Maltese terriers fetch high prices and pugs and French bulldogs etc..
> ...


To be honest though the market these types of dogs are aimed at are happier paying the higher price because it adds to the "status" of the dog, they wouldn't be nearly so interested if these dogs were £300/£400 

There will always be different types of market with any commodity, for some PFs it's volume and for some it's how to get the highest prices. This happens in the Pedigree world too where PFs will jump on the latest popular dog to maximise profits. Pugs and Frenchies are a classic example. Very very hard for a novice to buy a well bred Pug or Frenchy but very easy to buy an ill bred PFed one and with todays "i want it now" culture generally the PFers win because ethical breeders cant supply the demand for a dog that suddenly becomes the "must have" accesory 

I think it is wrong to say "i want this part of a breed but not that so i will have what i want regardless of wether it is the right thing to do or ultimately in the dogs best interests" thats pretty selfish without considering wether the 2 crosses are compatible in any way (and i happen to think some crosses like the cockerpoo ARE compatible ) now noone could seriously argue that a lab and a cav are compatible enough to breed on purpose.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Wow that's cheaper than kooikers, when i looked into them they were about a £1,000. I'm not which is rarer though? since i've seen neither where I live i'd have no clue :lol:


Me neither  Before they came off the Import Register we used to compete against an odd one or two at shows. They're off the Imoprt Register now though, so I'm guessing there are a few more of them around.



SpringerHusky said:


> I get sick of seeing rare blue staffs, rare merle chihuahua or Rare pocket beagle  you know for fact those dogs are from bad breeding


Yeah, totally agree. But to the untutored public they sound like really fantastic, rare, must have dogs - which is, of course, what the puppy farmers rely on.


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## SpringerHusky (Nov 6, 2008)

Spellweaver said:


> Me neither  Before they came off the Import Register we used to compete against an odd one or two at shows. They're off the Imoprt Register now though, so I'm guessing there are a few more of them around.
> 
> Yeah, totally agree. But to the untutored public they sound like really fantastic, rare, must have dogs - which is, of course, what the puppy farmers rely on.


Ah that must be fairly new then? I knew they were when i looked about 4-5 years ago. I'll have to look again :thumbup:

Yep of course, if it catches peoples eyes then you've won.

etc

Buy two for the price of three, yet when you read the small print you rearlize you're only saving your 1p but you still looked.

Hybrid four pawed flame point egyptian siamese cat, again it's attractive writing that has lured you in.

WOWWW ONE OFF DEAL OF MINIATURE JACK TERRIERS, COME GET THEM NOW BEFORE THEY GO! again big bolt font taht makes it sound amazing

The public are easily conned


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

SpringerHusky said:


> Am I the only here that thinks it's strange we make such a big deal about paying 1k for our ideal choice in dog that could last between 12-18 years yet we forked out what 30-50k? for car that provides no com panionship nbut only gets us from a to b?
> 
> If people want to pay £50-£2,000 for a dog that's thier choice, why should it matter if it's cross or not. If just as much love and care has gone into it then who the hell cares.


I can see why some people would begrudge that ammout of money because they feel they are lining someones pockets that will just churn out more dogs regardless, but for a well bred dog i dont think you can put a price on one, what about a holiday costing 2k lasting for 2 weeks, so i do agree how can you put a price on a dog really.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> To be honest I wonder how many do sell at these £lk prices?
> 
> I mean I wanted a bulldog but there are around £2k mark- so that was a no-no.
> Maltese terriers fetch high prices and pugs and French bulldogs etc..
> ...


Now the bulldog at 2k thats something i will never understand, yes i understand the reason behind the price, but why, why breed when it poses such difficulties and risks. hence the ammount of money charged for one.


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> There are just as many ( if not more) purebreed puppy Farmers as there are crossbreeds.
> 
> Have a look on manytears website as they take in a lot of exbreeding bitches and studs from puppyfarmers it is heartbreaking.
> 
> ...


And do you actually know that these poor dogs were crossed with their own breed or indeed a poo etc...????


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## frodos_electric_guitar (Nov 19, 2010)

Was looking at MT last night as I do sometimes and there was a "St Boodle" on there. Apparently a St Bernard crossed with a Poodle. I'd never heard of such things. Very cute looking guy but two rather odd dogs to cross IMHO.

Sorry that's a bit off the main thread of discussion but reading this reminded me.


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

gladass said:


> And do you actually know that these poor dogs were crossed with their own breed or indeed a poo etc...????


If you are going to quote me do the whole thing and not out of context and my message was in answer to cheekyscripts who I thought that bad quality puredbreed stock was going to be used by crossbreeders and not pedigree breeders.

here's what I said:

No a puppy farmer would still breed purebreeds from that stock. Not to say that a bad crossbreeder wouldn't either.

There are just as many ( if not more) purebreed puppy Farmers as there are crossbreeds.

Have a look on manytears website as they take in a lot of exbreeding bitches and studs from puppyfarmers it is heartbreaking.

*Often you see pups on there too where they are unsold, the runts or have heart problems or overshot jaw etc... and they are all mainly purebreed pups like Labs and Cavaliers, although I have seen poodle x st Bernard pups on there too. ( the bit you missed)
*
They are based in Wales so a high puppyfarm area. You will often find numerous labs, collies and cavaliers on there.

The labs look the saddest to me with their sorrowful faces and their poor little bellies and teats almost dragging on the floor .

So tell me then how can a lab pup be produced by anything other than 2 labs or a cav pup? etc...

and yes I do know someone who fosters for many tears.

I only popped on to send a message and thought I would take one last look at this.

geez


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## Amethyst (Jun 16, 2010)

frodos_electric_guitar said:


> Was looking at MT last night as I do sometimes and there was a "St Boodle" on there. Apparently a St Bernard crossed with a Poodle. I'd never heard of such things. Very cute looking guy but two rather odd dogs to cross IMHO.
> 
> Sorry that's a bit off the main thread of discussion but reading this reminded me.


But "quirky" and eye catching, someone will like this kind of thing I guess


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## gladass (Jan 6, 2011)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> There are just as many ( if not more) purebreed puppy Farmers as there are crossbreeds.I asked because of this part of your post as to me it did insinuate that you believed there was more purebred PF and of course you followed that by ---------
> 
> Have a look on manytears website as they take in a lot of exbreeding bitches and studs from puppyfarmers it is heartbreaking.
> 
> geez


Geez


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## holly1 (Aug 10, 2010)

I love cross breeds.They are all funky in their own little way.
But breeding on purpose,putting an idiotic name and huge price tag on it,no thanks.
Im thinking of breeding a bullshiz,see if it catches on.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

I would be more than happy to pay £1000/£2000 for a dog that was show potential or from a difficult birth type dog (bull dog for example) however only if the dog was from fully health tested parents and a great breeder who I felt 100% confident about.

There is a certain line of Shelties I love and I would pay £2000 for one anyday however I am not yet confident enough to import (the line was originally from the UK) however if they were not health tested, were not show potential I would not buy regardless of how great the line is in teh show ring.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I am probably a bit naive, having been brought up in the fifties, but I cannot honestly see how one can have a "natural" mating between two dogs of such varying sizes.


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## Werehorse (Jul 14, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I am probably a bit naive, having been brought up in the fifties, but I cannot honestly see how one can have a "natural" mating between two dogs of such varying sizes.


The Yellow Pages has a lot to answer for.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I would be more than happy to pay £1000/£2000 for a dog that was show potential or from a difficult birth type dog (bull dog for example) however only if the dog was from fully health tested parents and a great breeder who I felt 100% confident about.
> 
> There is a certain line of Shelties I love and I would pay £2000 for one anyday however I am not yet confident enough to import (the line was originally from the UK) however if they were not health tested, were not show potential I would not buy regardless of how great the line is in teh show ring.


As i have said before ime not against crossbreeds been bred if the right health tests ect have been done. Many say about paying hefty prices for dogs that arnt bred properly, without the health of mum and pups considered yet people will pay a lot of money for a bull dog when they know the health risks are high, whats the difference between a pedigree bull dog with the health problems and birth risks to the mum and a crossbreed been bred without tests therefore risking health problems, i dont get it tbh.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> As i have said before ime not against crossbreeds been bred if the right health tests ect have been done. Many say about paying hefty prices for dogs that arnt bred properly, without the health of mum and pups considered yet people will pay a lot of money for a bull dog when they know the health risks are high, whats the difference between a pedigree bull dog with the health problems and birth risks to the mum and a crossbreed been bred without tests therefore risking health problems, i dont get it tbh.


Simple, you know the health risks with the bulldog, you don't with an unhealth tested cross breed or pedigree. Better the devil you know, or is it? That's the question.....


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> As i have said before ime not against crossbreeds been bred if the right health tests ect have been done. Many say about paying hefty prices for dogs that arnt bred properly, without the health of mum and pups considered yet people will pay a lot of money for a bull dog when they know the health risks are high, whats the difference between a pedigree bull dog with the health problems and birth risks to the mum and a crossbreed been bred without tests therefore risking health problems, i dont get it tbh.


As I put under the bit that said "bull dog for example" I put "however only if the dog was from fully health tested parents and a great breeder who I felt 100% confident about"

I would not spend £1000s on a cross, not when rescues have pups and older dogs that need homes. I would have rescue shelties if there was enough shelties in rescues.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Simple, you know the health risks with the bulldog, you don't with an unhealth tested cross breed or pedigree. Better the devil you know, or is it? That's the question.....


I really dont see it as been any different tbh, it could be said that its more cruel to breed a dog knowing the mum is at a high risk of problems even death during birth and knowing that in most cases the pups will certainly be unhealthy as the bull dog is an unhealthy breed more or less a certainty

A crossbreed can have healthy pups, a pedigree dog can have healthy pups/dogs even without the health tests been done. Not always a certainty.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I really dont see it as been any different tbh, it could be said that its more cruel to breed a dog knowing the mum is at a high risk of problems even death during birth and knowing that in most cases the pups will certainly be unhealthy as the bull dog is an unhealthy breed more or less a certainty
> 
> A crossbreed can have healthy pups, a pedigree dog can have healthy pups/dogs even without the health tests been done. Not always a certainty.


Ok, would you buy a Labrador pup from parents who had been hip scored, or not?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> As I put under the bit that said "bull dog for example" I put "however only if the dog was from fully health tested parents and a great breeder who I felt 100% confident about"
> 
> I would not spend £1000s on a cross, not when rescues have pups and older dogs that need homes. I would have rescue shelties if there was enough shelties in rescues.


A bulldog having had full health tests done reduces the chance of unhealthy pups but doesnt take away any risks to the mum during pregnancy and birth.

I see this as being worse tbh.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Ok, would you buy a Labrador pup from parents who had been hip scored, or not?


They would have to have been hip scored yes, not sure why youve asked this


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## Snoringbear (Sep 26, 2008)

Slightly off topic but this thread has reminded me of the most stupid question I've ever been asked playing Trivial Pursuit. Question was what do you get if you cross a greyhound with a mastiff. Answer wasn't greystiff or masthound, it was great dane.:lol:


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

haeveymolly said:


> A bulldog having had full health tests done reduces the chance of unhealthy pups but doesnt take away any risks to the mum during pregnancy and birth.
> 
> I see this as being worse tbh.


I said bull dog as a example, I dont like the idea of dogs that cant give birth naturally. However you get a completely history of your dogs line, health test results and tbh people will buy dogs that have birth problems regardless of this fact but doesnt every dog risk death during birth?


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## SEVEN_PETS (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't agree with bulldogs being bred to be honest, they are a severely unhealthy breed and the risks to mum during mating, pregnancy and whelping is too high IMO, and the pups are likely to be unhealthy, even if the parents were health tested, they are still likely to have breathing problems.

I think bulldogs should be crossbred to healthier breeds to breed a longer muzzle, longer legs, smaller chest etc (obviously all done ethically and responsibly with all the necessary health tests), similar to the LUA dalmatians.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> They would have to have been hip scored yes, not sure why youve asked this


Because, you seem to prefer to buy a pup from unhealth tested parents, than a pup from health tested parents, where the breed is known to suffer from health issues. Surely, it's better to know what you've got, than gamble on what you might have. I'm honestly not trying to single you out hun, I hope you know me better than that. But this is exactly the sort of argument unethical breeders use about their so called healthier lines, or cross breeds with hybrid vigour. And there is so much more to it than that.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> I said bull dog as a example, I dont like the idea of dogs that cant give birth naturally. However you get a completely history of your dogs line, health test results and tbh people will buy dogs that have birth problems regardless of this fact but doesnt every dog risk death during birth?


Oh yes there is a risk with any human or animal, but why do they continue to see it ok when the risk is so high, yet its a no,no without doubt for anyone to breed without health tests because of the risks involved.

So its said dont buy a cheap dog from unhealth tested parents there are risks, yet pay a huge justified ammount for a bulldog where the risks are a certainty not a maybe. I really dont understand this at all.

Always breed with the dog and its pups with health in mind, contradiction here.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't agree with bulldogs being bred to be honest, they are a severely unhealthy breed and the risks to mum during mating, pregnancy and whelping is too high IMO, and the pups are likely to be unhealthy, even if the parents were health tested, they are still likely to have breathing problems.
> 
> I think bulldogs should be crossbred to healthier breeds to breed a longer muzzle, longer legs, smaller chest etc (obviously all done ethically and responsibly with all the necessary health tests), similar to the LUA dalmatians.


:thumbup: didnt think anyone was going to agree with me on this one  I agree with you but its the unhealthtested pedigrees and the crossbreed breeders that get the slatings.


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## EmCHammer (Dec 28, 2009)

Ive nothing against cross breeds or pedigrees; my own dogs are cross breeds and my favourite dog is a nice tall staffie x. As the rescues are full of them I am spoilt for choice amoungst the rescue dogs.

What I don't agree with is is people crossing two breeds of dogs and marketing them as something amazing and rare and charging £1000 for them; and then the people who think this is an acceptable price to pay for a cross breed dog! 

I don't know anything about the prices for pedigree dogs; as a rescue volunteer I am 100% rescue dogs all the way and as no history is known on parentage/ health etc well you don't know if the dogs may come with health issues BUT if I was to buy a dog I would make very surey it was health tested/ responsible breeder etc; firstly because I don't want my dog to suffer in future years; and if you are paying out 'all that money' then I want to get a healthy and good tempramented dog (OK so I know that its not guaranteed etc etc but would at least want to give me and the dog a fighting chance of it).


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Oh yes there is a risk with any human or animal, but why do they continue to see it ok when the risk is so high, yet its a no,no without doubt for anyone to breed without health tests because of the risks involved.
> 
> So its said dont buy a cheap dog from unhealth tested parents there are risks, yet *pay a huge justified ammount for a bulldog where the risks are a certainty *not a maybe. I really dont understand this at all.
> 
> Always breed with the dog and its pups with health in mind, contradiction here.


The risks are according to the breed, it's not a certainty you will have an animal that's crippled and suffers constant ill health, although I have to agree, they are not the healthiest pedigree breed.

Or you gamble, and you could have a cross breed or pedigree from breeders who don't health test, so you could end up with anything really. And that's my point, at least with the bulldog you know. You have a worst case, and best case scenario, but with the other *type* you don't have any scenario. It could be better, but it could also be much worse.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Because, you seem to prefer to buy a pup from unhealth tested parents, than a pup from health tested parents, where the breed is known to suffer from health issues. Surely, it's better to know what you've got, than gamble on what you might have. I'm honestly not trying to single you out hun, I hope you know me better than that. But this is exactly the sort of argument unethical breeders use about their so called healthier lines, or cross breeds with hybrid vigour. And there is so much more to it than that.


I dont prefer to buy from unhealth tested parents at all, my first 2 was 1 of them being my eldest now and tbh i knew nothing of health tests till years after when i joined this forum, the pup i bought since is from health tested parents.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

After reading through all the usual arguments, I'm going to comment on the original post, i.e. the breeders and "breed" in question:

1) The breeder has chosen to give the pups one of these special names - the Cavador. I personally dislike the use of such names because I feel it is misleading. Call them what they are - lab / cav crosses.

2) They are advertised as "Extremely rare", "not to be missed" and "designer hybrids". They are neither. We are talking about living, sentient pups here people - not a designer handbag!! To me this type of advertising is aimed specifically at the type of person who buys dogs as a fashion accessory, who cares more about "brand" and social status than quality or ethics.

I am NOT, *repeat NOT*, saying that all crossbreed owners are this type of person. I am saying that adverts like this are designed to appeal to this type of person. Which to me is unethical - they are deliberately seeking out people likely to make very poor, irresponsible owners.

3) The lab is stated as KC reg, the cav is not, and there is no mention of health testing, nor of any evidence of temperament, training, or working ability. I am a firm believer that good breeders strive to produce happy, healthy, sound pups. There is nothing in the ad to suggest these particular breeders give a hoot about such things.

4) They specifically state "Stay looking like a labrador puppy all of their life without the size issues of a full grown labrador". This is just advertising bull! As a cross, there is no way of knowing how these pups will turn out. Cav looks with lab temperamant? Lab looks with cav temp? Like mini long haired labs, or tall short haired cavs? Who knows. This breeder makes claims they can not substantiate - they had no idea how the pups would turn out, nor do they have any idea what they will be like fully grown. And they sure as hell can't guarantee that they won't have the same issues as a fully grown lab! This is blatant full advertising - downright lies imo. All designed once again to lure in people who know - or care - no better.

5) Prices from £1000. Don't get me wrong - people can pay what they like for a dog, that's entirely their choice. There is massive variation in price between pedigree breeds, and I don't really see why a well-bred, ethically bred and raised pup from a responsible, ethical and knowedgable breeder should be "cheap" purely because it is a cross.
However, I must again point out that there is no indication that this litter was ethically or responsibly bred. The emphasis is on how "rare" and "designer" they are. This implies very clearly that they are charging high prices for this reason alone. Not because the pups are of such high quality, but for profit.

6) The actual cross - Labrador x Cavalier

I like many crossbreeds. I can see why many of them appeal to some people more than their parent breeds - including myself. I prefer lurchers to collies or greyhounds, whippets or bedlington terriers.

But to deliberately breed a cross like this - from dogs of totally different size, different conformation, different temperaments and different backgrounds (being in different groups) seems pointless and potentially dangerous. Both labs and cavs make great family pets - if you want something small go for the cav or another spaniel or toy breed. If you want something bigger go for a lab, or a similar retriever. There are even more sensible crosses that people could consider - the sprocker for example.
These dogs have clearly not been bred for any specific purpose or function other than to make ther owners money.

And I will say this again, for the record. I do not hate crossbreeds, far from it. I do not hate crossbreed owners. I do not hate responsible, ethical crossbreed breeders.
What I do dislike is people breeding irresponsibly / unethically for profit. People deliberately trying to con people. False advertising. And lies.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I dont prefer to buy from unhealth tested parents at all, my first 2 was 1 of them being my eldest now and tbh i knew nothing of health tests till years after when i joined this forum, the pup i bought since is from health tested parents.


I'm sorry hun, I'm not trying to misquote you, but from the way you've worded posts, you seem to think that some pedigree breeds, like the bulldog are irretrievably unhealthy compared to other dogs, whether that's pedigree, cross breed, and despite health testing? And that's what I'm trying to highlight


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

The other option is to buy a crossbreed from a breeder who carries out extensive health tests with at least one certainty, that you are not buying a pup that has been inbred (both parents being different breeds)


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> The risks are according to the breed, it's not a certainty you will have an animal that's crippled and suffers constant ill health, although I have to agree, they are not the healthiest pedigree breed.
> 
> Or you gamble, and you could have a cross breed or pedigree from breeders who don't health test, so you could end up with anything really. And that's my point, at least with the bulldog you know. You have a worst case, and best case scenario, but with the other *type* you don't have any scenario. It could be better, but it could also be much worse.


So it could be said 50-50 with crossbreeds or pedigree from unhealthtested parents. I would say its more than that with a bull dog, they are risking the mum and pups but still its ok to charge the huge amount they do because of this.

Its cruel to put a dog through these risks, the poor bitch that faces death during birth, the huge risk is there it cant be argued just by the ammount you have to pay for one.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

SEVEN_PETS said:


> I don't agree with bulldogs being bred to be honest, they are a severely unhealthy breed and the risks to mum during mating, pregnancy and whelping is too high IMO, and the pups are likely to be unhealthy, even if the parents were health tested, they are still likely to have breathing problems.
> 
> I think bulldogs should be crossbred to healthier breeds to breed a longer muzzle, longer legs, smaller chest etc (obviously all done ethically and responsibly with all the necessary health tests), similar to the LUA dalmatians.


It will be interesting to see if something like this begins to happen when the ban of not being able to register more than two C-Section litters from a bitch comes into play next year.


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## PennyH (Dec 30, 2008)

Having lost 2 pedigree dogs within 7 months of each other (both of whom were from extremely reputable breeders and both from excellent lines and stock), I now have a little cross breed. If you want to use one of the "designer" names, he is a Cavapoopoo as mum is a cavalier x poodle and dad is a poodle. To me he is a gorgeous, adorable crossbreed who has made my family smile after a horrendous year.
His parents were health tested. His grandparents were health tested. Our vet has checked him thoroughly and is very hopeful that he will not suffer from the same problems as my beloved pedigree dogs - and I love him to bits!
I have 3 other dogs - 1 is a rescue (cross breed), 1 is a yorkie but has no papers and the other is also a cross breed.
After the year we had, I don't think I will ever get another pedigree dog as long as I live.
If that makes me a bad person - sorry to anyone who feels that way..
If that means that I shouldn't come on open forums and talk about my love for my little dog - tough. To us he is part of our family and not a "designer" dog at all.
My family smile again, laugh at his silly antics and love our little "mutt" and I will never be persuaded to change my mind!
I have nothing against pedigrees - but they are no longer for me.

I do wish people on this forum could be a little nicer to one another and a bit less scathing to those of us mortals who actually like our cross bred dogs - call them mongrels, cross breeds, whatever you like - but to us they are part of our families as much as those of you who have pedigrees and I am sure we love them just as much as you love your dogs.....

Try and be nice to people - after all, if we are all animal lovers on here, maybe we should remember that and be a little more understanding of each other's feelings on here???
Just a thought.......


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> The other option is to buy a crossbreed from a breeder who carries out extensive health tests with at least one certainty, that you are not buying a pup that has been inbred (both parents being different breeds)


And they are like rocking horse poo, and how do you know, after you extensive health testing, what the two will produce genetically, if they are capable of passing on the same genetic defects?



haeveymolly said:


> So it could be said 50-50 with crossbreeds or pedigree from unhealthtested parents. I would say its more than that with a bull dog, they are risking the mum and pups but still its ok to charge the huge amount they do because of this.
> 
> Its cruel to put a dog through these risks, the poor bitch that faces death during birth, the huge risk is there it cant be argued just by the ammount you have to pay for one.


Any bitch faces death during whelping though? It is always a risk putting any bitch through pregnancy and whelping, yes, it is a higher risk with some breeds than others, but every single situation SHOULD be looked at as a life threatening risk.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry hun, I'm not trying to misquote you, but from the way you've worded posts, you seem to think that some pedigree breeds, like the bulldog are irretrievably unhealthy compared to other dogs, whether that's pedigree, cross breed, and despite health testing? And that's what I'm trying to highlight


Ive seen threads on here the breeding section when quite rightly breeders and other have fallen over themselves to disuade anyone from breeding their bulldog, highlighting the huge risks of putting a bitch through pregnancy. And some pedigrees or crossbreeds are unhealthy.

Ime not for or against pedigree or crossbreeds, i would say ime on the fence on this subject, i can see all sides, its just a bit contradictive to say its ok for anyone to breed a bulldog, for anyone to buy a bulldog but be prepared to pay a lot of money because of the costs of breeding this unhealthy breed, why could anyone justify charging this ammount if not.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

For a minute there I thought you were going to overreact :lol:

... meet my dog "Rocking Horse Poo"


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> Ive seen threads on here the breeding section when quite rightly breeders and other have fallen over themselves to disuade anyone from breeding their bulldog, highlighting the huge risks of putting a bitch through pregnancy. And some pedigrees or crossbreeds are unhealthy.
> 
> Ime not for or against pedigree or crossbreeds, i would say ime on the fence on this subject, i can see all sides, its just a bit contradictive to say its ok for anyone to breed a bulldog, for anyone to buy a bulldog but be prepared to pay a lot of money because of the costs of breeding this unhealthy breed, why could anyone justify charging this ammount if not.


No, you're right, it is not ok for anyone to just breed a bulldog, or any breed that has health issues related to it, to a greater or lesser extent. BUT, at the very least, with someone who health tests, whether that's pedigree or not, you know the status of the parents, and can possibly check further back into the ancestry. Random unhealthtested pairings give you no information whatsoever about the dog.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> For a minute there I thought you were going to overreact :lol:
> 
> ... meet my dog "Rocking Horse Poo"


Have you actually got anything of value to say, or are you just going to ridicule my posts?


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

If anything should be done about breeding pedigrees, crossbreeds or breeding from unhealth tested dog, something should certainly be done about breeding the likes of the bulldog where the risks are far higher then most other dogs, this cant be argued as the risks are ther and thats what breeders of bulldogs put out there in explanation for the high price they have to charge.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> No, you're right, it is not ok for anyone to just breed a bulldog, or any breed that has health issues related to it, to a greater or lesser extent. BUT, at the very least, with someone who health tests, whether that's pedigree or not, you know the status of the parents, and can possibly check further back into the ancestry. Random unhealthtested pairings give you no information whatsoever about the dog.


But that still doesnt lessen the high risk of death or problems birthing.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> If anything should be done about breeding pedigrees, crossbreeds or breeding from unhealth tested dog, something should certainly be done about breeding the likes of the bulldog where the risks are far higher then most other dogs, this cant be argued as the risks are ther and thats what breeders of bulldogs put out there in explanation for the high price they have to charge.


I agree, entirely, but at the very least, you know what you are dealing with, which can't be said for the vast, vast majority of unethically bred dogs, whether they be pedigree, or cross breeds. Now, of course, there are unethically bred bulldogs, people cashing in because they are popular, and have a high price tag, and they are exactly the sort of breeder that needs to be stopped.


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## Indie (Nov 6, 2007)

I remember years back now on the news there was a Rottie x JR, he looked like a Rottie with JR legs, and yep the mum was the JR.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Have you actually got anything of value to say, or are you just going to ridicule my posts?


Sorry, if instead of just dismissing my valid point you answered it (the reasons we'd know about passing on genetic defects is by having DNA tests before breeding which, of course, would not rule out recessive genes)... but if I put that point... you'd say something like "but crossbreeders don't do that" and I'd say, "that's a generalisation" and the whole thing would go round again so its more relevant to post a stupid comment in response as you seem to be better at responding more fully to those.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> If anything should be done about breeding pedigrees, crossbreeds or breeding from unhealth tested dog, something should certainly be done about breeding the likes of the bulldog where the risks are far higher then most other dogs, this cant be argued as the risks are ther and thats what breeders of bulldogs put out there in explanation for the high price they have to charge.


It is being done hun - from next year the KC are not going to allow any litter to be registered from any bitch (not just bulldogs) after she has had two C-Sections. They set it at two because any bitch could have something such as a breech birth and have to have a C-section, and then go on to have normal litters afterwards. But if it happens a second time, there is obviously something wrong and shouldn't be bred from again.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry, if instead of just dismissing my valid point you answered it (the reasons we'd know about passing on genetic defects is by having DNA tests before breeding which, of course, would not rule out recessive genes)... but if I put that point... you'd say something like "but crossbreeders don't do that" and I'd say, "that's a generalisation" and the whole thing would go round again so its more relevant to post a stupid comment in response as you seem to be better at responding more fully to those.


I didn't see your valid point


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I agree, entirely, but at the very least, you know what you are dealing with, which can't be said for the vast, vast majority of unethically bred dogs, whether they be pedigree, or cross breeds. Now, of course, there are unethically bred bulldogs, people cashing in because they are popular, and have a high price tag, and they are exactly the sort of breeder that needs to be stopped.


I just cant see how anyone could breed from their dog knowing how risky it would be. As you have said its risky for any dog and i certainly wouldnt breed mine but with a bulldog its nearly cut and dried that there are going to be problems and that from a bulldog breeders mouth, more than once on here.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I didn't see your valid point


See... that's better isn't it.... you're much better at being condescending than reading.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> It is being done hun - from next year the KC are not going to allow any litter to be registered from any bitch (not just bulldogs) after she has had two C-Sections. They set it at two because any bitch could have something such as a breech birth and have to have a C-section, and then go on to have normal litters afterwards. But if it happens a second time, there is obviously something wrong and shouldn't be bred from again.


Thanks thats good to hear.:thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

haeveymolly said:


> I just cant see how anyone could breed from their dog knowing how risky it would be. As you have said its risky for any dog and i certainly wouldnt breed mine but with a bulldog its nearly cut and dried that there are going to be problems and that from a bulldog breeders mouth, more than once on here.


But, even if I bred from Tau, knowing her parentage, knowing she has good health test results, I do it knowing I could loose her, and any pups. That's a hard decision for ANY breeder, or should be.



Elmo the Bear said:


> See... that's better isn't it.... you're much better at being condescending than reading.


Really, not in the mood for your petty posts, so don't bother.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sorry I'll leave you adult's to agree with each other.


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## haeveymolly (Mar 7, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> But, even if I bred from Tau, knowing her parentage, knowing she has good health test results, I do it knowing I could loose her, and any pups. That's a hard decision for ANY breeder, or should be.
> 
> Really, not in the mood for your petty posts, so don't bother.


Yes i can see that, but we know its more than just a risk with bulldogs it would be more certain that bulldogs could face death or serious problems than your dog,surely you can see that,


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Sorry I'll leave you adult's to agree with each other.


If you had one ounce of integrity in the way that you posted, I'd respect the fact that you aim to breed towards ethical cross breeds. However, your derisive comments, and attitude towards anybody that supports ethical breeding, whether that is cross breeds or pedigrees, has really come to the fore on a couple of recent threads. And for that reason, I just don't have the time of day, or want to even waste my breath, where's the ignore button....



haeveymolly said:


> Yes i can see that, but we know its more than just a risk with bulldogs it would be more certain that bulldogs could face death or serious problems than your dog,surely you can see that,


Yes, I can see that too, but I'd rather know exactly what I was dealing with, than a whole heap of unknowns. So I'd rather buy a nicely bred bulldog, than a dog of unknown parentage, on the offchance it may well be healthier. Hope that makes sense...


----------



## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> See... that's better isn't it.... you're much better at being condescending than reading.





Sleeping_Lion said:


> Really, not in the mood for your petty posts, so don't bother.


Just ignore him hun. btw - did you realise that I'm psychic? I predicted way back in post #60 that Elmo would come on this thread and try to turn it into another "you hate crossbreeds/you hate me and my dogs" thread!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Just ignore him hun. btw - did you realise that I'm psychic? I predicted way back in post #60 that Elmo would come on this thread and try to turn it into another "you hate crossbreeds/you hate me and my dogs" thread!


Haha, if only they knew how little I cared about their posts, I care about the dogs, perhaps that's my downfall.....


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If you had one ounce of integrity in the way that you posted, I'd respect the fact that you aim to breed towards ethical cross breeds. However, your derisive comments, and attitude towards anybody that supports ethical breeding, whether that is cross breeds or pedigrees, has really come to the fore on a couple of recent threads. And for that reason, I just don't have the time of day, or want to even waste my breath, where's the ignore button....


Obviously hidden as you seem to have trouble finding it. You keep on making assumptions, generalisations and sweeping statements as if you're an experts. I don't agree with your opinion yet I have the reserve to not simply patronise you. When suggest an option "but from a crossbreeder that health tests" you dismiss with a pointless comment that you feel has some foundation. I don't engage you in serious debate because you are not interested in it - you simply make a repetitive statement so many times until people agree with you.

Your response when a difficultly comes along is to do what you have just done, become accusatory "you clearly support bad breeding".... blah blah... then dismiss the comments in response.

I'm sure MOD will help you with that ignore button.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

echo.... echo....


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Obviously hidden as you seem to have trouble finding it. You keep on making assumptions, generalisations and sweeping statements as if you're an experts. I don't agree with your opinion yet I have the reserve to not simply patronise you. When suggest an option "but from a crossbreeder that health tests" you dismiss with a pointless comment that you feel has some foundation. I don't engage you in serious debate because you are not interested in it - you simply make a repetitive statement so many times until people agree with you.
> 
> Your response when a difficultly comes along is to do what you have just done, become accusatory "you clearly support bad breeding".... blah blah... then dismiss the comments in response.
> 
> I'm sure MOD will help you with that ignore button.


Please, I'll interpret your post, even though the wording obviously needs a little help.

You have the reserve to patronise me, does that mean you'll be buying my products, probably not, so I won't hold my breath. I'm an experts, wow, and there was I just thinking there's little ole' me!!

I don't need any help thanks, I know an ethical breeder, from an unethical one, as much as I know where the ignore button is


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

So press the thing cos you and yer mayt urr gettin on me nerves now (I don't spell check or grammer check)


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

"to not simply patronise you"... glasses luv glasses


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> So press the thing cos you and yer mayt urr gettin on me nerves now (I don't spell check or grammer check)





Elmo the Bear said:


> "to not simply patronise you"... glasses luv glasses


Do I have to say anything more, if you haven't got a valid contribution to this thread, then just post elsewhere. You're wasting valuable time having to scroll down


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Thought you were ignoring me. I would make a contribution if I thought you would actually read it and respond to it.

If you hit that button you won't have to scroll.

You may need to go and dig up another outrageous crossbreed ad and start again... and again... and again... as your mate says I only come to ruin the thread.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Thought you were ignoring me. I would make a contribution if I thought you would actually read it and respond to it.
> 
> If you hit that button you won't have to scroll.
> 
> You may need to go and dig up another outrageous crossbreed ad and start again... and again... and again... as your mate says I only come to ruin the thread.


Wow, do you have a life, or do you just sit on your backside waiting to justify your Labradoodles?


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## Patterdale_lover (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh my lord Elmo will you ever get out of your pram? 

I'm starting to dislike designer breeds now, not cause of the dogs purely cause of the dimwitted narrow minded sensitive owners. There said it. Someone call the police.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, do you have a life, or do you just sit on your backside waiting to justify your Labradoodles?


Guessing you've clearly run out of stuff. I'm working... this is just a bit of fun in between reading :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Guessing you've clearly run out of stuff. I'm working... this is just a bit of fun in between reading :thumbup:


Run out of what stuff? Obviously seeing things that aren't there, do you find this happening regularly?


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Patterdale_lover said:


> Oh my lord Elmo will you ever get out of your pram?
> 
> I'm starting to dislike designer breeds now, not cause of the dogs purely cause of the dimwitted narrow minded sensitive owners. There said it. Someone call the police.


If you wish to call them designer breeds then I'm guessing you had no truck with crosses in the first place.

If you want to look at narrow minded read back on the thread.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> If you wish to call them designer breeds then I'm guessing you had no truck with crosses in the first place.
> 
> If you want to look at narrow minded read back on the thread.


Why bother, they're right here!


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Run out of what stuff? Obviously seeing things that aren't there, do you find this happening regularly?


Some of your earlier patronising answers were quite witty / quick... now your just engaging in gainsay.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Why bother, they're right here!


Tracking that button down is really causing you issues. So in the interim how about responding to my earlier sensible question about the third way, finding a crossbreeder who health tests?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Some of your earlier patronising answers were quite witty / quick... now your just engaging in gainsay.


Aww, and there was me, thinking you'd glossed over my posts, and here we go with a fabulous word 'gainsay', why not just say I don't necessarily agree with your ethics?


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Aww, and there was me, thinking you'd glossed over my posts, and here we go with a fabulous word 'gainsay', why not just say I don't necessarily agree with your ethics?


You've never disagreed with them, you don't know what they are and simply reply by dismissing my view as irrelevant.

Gainsay is not argument its simple opposition, to disagree you must have an alternative view to mine which you have not stated.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> You've never disagreed with them, you don't know what they are and simply reply by dismissing my view as irrelevant.
> 
> Gainsay is not argument its simple opposition, to disagree you must have an alternative view to mine which you have not stated.


Chuckle, a lecture on English and Ethics! Wow, I stand corrected, and obviously must revise my position on both, or may be not.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Chuckle, a lecture on English and Ethics! Wow, I stand corrected, and obviously must revise my position on both, or may be not.


I know his brother.

And again... no opposition, simply patronising statements. There's no lecture on either language or ethics (the latter not mentioned in my reply).


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Let me make this very clear, you bully, patronise and post over the top of other people on this forum who support the ethical breeding of dogs, whether that is pedigree or cross breed. The likes of your type of breeding, is hopefully the past, the future is those that are open to questions AND who health test, and consider temperament and conformation.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Why do all threads about cross's turn petty?


Sleeping Lion dont rise to it...its what he wants.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Ok, I'm not either way pro or anti crossbreed, but I think it's fair to say that some people do see them as being designer dogs, for example the poster who came on here saying they wanted a dog like the one the OP posted about. They went on to say (this isn't a direct quote) "I don't want a cavalier, they're too small, I don't want a labrador, they're too big, I want a mix. Hence, I want this dog- I can't even remember what it's name was- cavador?" And there is an element there: of I want this dog, I don't care whether the size difference between the parents is extreme, I don't give a fig if the parents are health tested (there seemed to be an assumption by that poster that all crosses are the epitome of health), willing to pay money to a breeder who is promoting the dog as "designer". Thats what makes me people angry. There are clearly a lot of ethical breeders, whether they are breeding crosses or pedigree, but there are a lot of dodgy breeders too, and they are milking these "designer breeds" (not my words, words from the breeders advertisement.) And people seeing these crosses assume, without question that these breeders are legit and are willing to pay so much money for a dog that might have been bred and whelped in appalling conditions,because they are so desperate for a perfectly healthy dog.(?!) I think this is what the OP was trying to say, NOT to have a go at people who do have healthy crosses, who do look into their breeders with care.
You're all on the same side here. You all want to see ethical breeding, and healthy dogs, but people can't just assume that all pedigrees are riddled with disease and all crosses are genetically perfect. 

I don't know if I've said it very well but meh!


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

shetlandlover said:


> Why do all threads about cross's turn petty?
> 
> 
> Sleeping Lion dont rise to it...its what he wants.


They don't, it's just some people try to turn them that way


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Nope... only you.

I'm for compulsory health testing but some posters make excuses as to why that can't be done.

I'm for ethical breeding and crossbreeding but some posters make sweeping statements that all crossbreeders don't health test which is untrue.

You have a view with which I disagree (your opposition to compulsory testing) but I do not patronise you, I tried (given up now) to engage but you patronise.

Paint yourself as what you like but please not as the basis of all things ethical and anyone who has an opposing view is against ethical breeding.


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Liquidsunshine said:


> Ok, I'm not either way pro or anti crossbreed, but I think it's fair to say that some people do see them as being designer dogs, for example the poster who came on here saying they wanted a dog like the one the OP posted about. They went on to say (this isn't a direct quote) "I don't want a cavalier, they're too small, I don't want a labrador, they're too big, I want a mix. Hence, I want this dog- I can't even remember what it's name was- cavador?" And there is an element there: of I want this dog, I don't care whether the size difference between the parents is extreme, I don't give a fig if the parents are health tested (there seemed to be an assumption by that poster that all crosses are the epitome of health), willing to pay money to a breeder who is promoting the dog as "designer". Thats what makes me people angry. There are clearly a lot of ethical breeders, whether they are breeding crosses or pedigree, but there are a lot of dodgy breeders too, and they are milking these "designer breeds" (not my words, words from the breeders advertisement.) And people seeing these crosses assume, without question that these breeders are legit and are willing to pay so much money for a dog that might have been bred and whelped in appalling conditions,because they are so desperate for a perfectly healthy dog.(?!) I think this is what the OP was trying to say, NOT to have a go at people who do have healthy crosses, who do look into their breeders with care.
> You're all on the same side here. You all want to see ethical breeding, and healthy dogs, but people can't just assume that all pedigrees are riddled with disease and all crosses are genetically perfect.
> 
> I don't know if I've said it very well but meh!


Spot on!!!!!!!! rep to you.



Sleeping_Lion said:


> They don't, it's just some people try to turn them that way


Yup and we all know who they are. Just carry on as normal


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm not asking anyone to rise to anything - simply to answer the question... none of you have.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Nope... only you.
> 
> I'm for compulsory health testing but some posters make excuses as to why that can't be done.
> 
> ...


Can I just say, lah, lah, lah, lah, fingers in ears, your opinion means nothing to me. I've said many times, I value the opinion of those I respect.....


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Why do all threads about cross's turn petty?
> 
> 
> Sleeping Lion dont rise to it...its what he wants.


Why do people keep starting (negative) threads about crosses?


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

fpjeepy05 said:


> Sooo.... I was looking to adopt a Cavador puppy, and while on my Google search I came across this forum by accident. And yes, sadly I registered for this forum solely to post a response to this post.
> 
> I'm not sure why this is a rare cross, but if i had to guess i would say it has to do with the fact that one of the dogs is much larger than the other. That is why i have heard the few breeders that actually do breed these, use *artificial insemination*. That being said I would like to defend this breed as a rather practical breed and a great one at that.
> 
> ...


artificial insemination.:..is this always? Is this a method of choice or need? Delivered by C -section ?? I often wonder if it can't be natural should it be done at all or is it just to fill a market demand..:


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Can I just say, lah, lah, lah, lah, fingers in ears, your opinion means nothing to me. I've said many times, I value the opinion of those I respect.....


Usual then. You remain opposed to compulsory health testing and will simply stick your fingers in your ears. Bit of a shame as to make that a reality it will need the support of those within the system as well as outside of it.


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## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Why do people keep starting (negative) threads about crosses?


Nothing negative about cross's but of certain back yard breeders.
How many negative posts have their been about pedigrees? Yet you dont see the pedigree owners being petty.

Bad breeders happen, its nothing against the dogs they dont ask to be bred badly.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Usual then. You remain opposed to compulsory health testing and will simply stick your fingers in your ears. Bit of a shame as to make that a reality it will need the support of those within the system as well as outside of it.


Ok, since you want it, what would you want to see as compulsoy health tests and results from your type of breeding stock, bearing in mind, Labradoodles have a higher BMS than Labradors.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I'm not asking anyone to rise to anything - simply to answer the question... none of you have.


What question would that be then? Must have missed that - guess it was hidden in all the vitriol you've been busily pouring over everyone.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> What question would that be then? Must have missed that - guess it was hidden in all the vitriol you've been busily pouring over everyone.


That'll be me then, chuckle!!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> Nothing negative about cross's but of certain back yard breeders.
> How many negative posts have their been about pedigrees? Yet you dont see the pedigree owners being petty.
> 
> Bad breeders happen, its nothing against the dogs they dont ask to be bred badly.


Having problems finding any in the recent past. I've not been around for a year and thought this place had changed but I guess not.

If you can find me a thread about bad pedigree breeders please post a link and I'll go read that (which will doubtless keep my new friend happy)


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Not everyone... just the one.... who dismissed my question as "invalid"...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Not everyone... just the one.... who dismissed my question as "invalid"...


Maybe if I asked Spellweaver politely, she'd ask on my behalf about health tests


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Echo ..... echo, or is that too much like de ja vu?


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Elmo, what is your question? We can't answer if we don't know what it is? Personally I've read all your posts and don't know whats going on?
Sleeping Lion asked you a Q regarding health tests, why don't you answer that?
Otherwise you're a big black pot calling the kettle black


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Ooo surrealism now... must be late.

The point, you deemed invalid, was my suggestion that you could buy a crossbreed from a breed who carries out extensive health tests, knowing that you would not have any concerning over inbreeding for the pups.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Liquidsunshine said:


> Elmo, what is your question? We can't answer if we don't know what it is? Personally I've read all your posts and don't know whats going on?
> Sleeping Lion asked you a Q regarding health tests, why don't you answer that?
> Otherwise you're a big black pot calling the kettle black


I missed the question from Sleeping Lion

My answer on health tests is they should be compulsory... Sleeping Lion holds a different view.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> Elmo, what is your question? We can't answer if we don't know what it is? Personally I've read all your posts and don't know whats going on?
> Sleeping Lion asked you a Q regarding health tests, why don't you answer that?
> Otherwise you're a big black pot calling the kettle black


Elmo breeds Labradoodles, and has a huge chip on their shoulder re cross breeds. The minute any thread comes up, they think we are condemning all cross breeds as unethical and unworthy against our pure bred pedigrees, and start pointing fingers about how all breeds were originally cross bred to type. What they fail to answer, is the current fashion for cross breeds and the way it is abused by many, as it is for some pedigree breeds, to churn out pups for cash.


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## pearltheplank (Oct 2, 2010)

Elmo the Bear said:


> If you can find me a thread about bad pedigree breeders please post a link and I'll go read that (which will doubtless keep my new friend happy)


I think shetlandlover meant about pedigree dogs more than their actual breeders and I remember the one about 'should these be bred' or something like tha. About shar pei, my breed, and how bad they are. I didn't get snotty :confused1: and they are my love, Just answered factually

I don't know how to post a link


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I missed the question from Sleeping Lion
> 
> My answer on health tests is they should be compulsory... Sleeping Lion holds a different view.


What health tests should be compulsory, and what results?


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Maybe if I asked Spellweaver politely, she'd ask on my behalf about health tests


I would ask hun, but he's pretending to have me on ignore (he slipped up a little a while back tho when he posted about your "mayt" :lol: )

He's not interested in answering questions - all he wants is to pretend this thread is about being against crossbreeds so he can cause trouble. Anyone with even half a brain can clearly see it was about unethical breeders and only became yet another argument about crossbreeds when he started on about them. This is what he used to do before - and got thread after thread closed. In this last year that he hasn't been posting, we have been able to have sensible discussions about crossbreeding without all this nonsense.

Ignore him - but don't put him on ignore because some of the things he posts are truly wondrous and will keep you chuckling for ages :thumbup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Ooo surrealism now... must be late.
> 
> The point, you deemed invalid, was my suggestion that you could buy a crossbreed from a breed who carries out extensive health tests, *knowing that you would not have any concerning over inbreeding for the pups*.


I'm sorry, but that just does not make sense, as you well know, many breeds are closely related, so cross breeding does not necessarily widen a gene pool, and can in fact, introduce genetic defects that hadn't been a problem previously.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

Maybe my post read a bit mean there, simply was interested in hearing your answer! I don;t think it cam across right elmo


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> What health tests should be compulsory, and what results?


Initially DNA tests for known hereditary diseases. Advanced tests can show up more than blood borne diseases and the tests currently available for livestock, are now advanced enough to be refined to tests for a huge range of genetic issues. I'm not an expert on the DNA issue but have colleagues who design and refine such tests.

Secondly there must be a block on breeding from any animals that have physical attributes deemed as potentially damaging for future animals with a defined programme to either remove that know issue with x number of generations or to stop breeding of that breed completely.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry, but that just does not make sense, as you well know, many breeds are closely related, so cross breeding does not necessarily widen a gene pool, and can in fact, introduce genetic defects that hadn't been a problem previously.


But if the breeds are wide enough apart there is a clear advantage (there are some disadvantages yes) and even with "close" breeds there is still a greater variation of the gene pool. I'm not saying its silver bullet but it is one valid issue.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Initially DNA tests for known hereditary diseases. Advanced tests can show up more than blood borne diseases and the tests current available for livestock, are now advanced enough to be refined to tests for a huge range of genetic issues. I'm not an expert on the DNA issue but have colleagues who design and refine such tests.
> 
> Secondly there must be a block on breeding from any animals that have physical attributes deemed as potentially damaging for future animals with a defined programme to either remove that know issue with x number of generations or to stop breeding of that breed completely.


And what results? As we all know, there are some tests that can be bred clear from affected, so how are you going to police those?

And what about hip scores/elbow grades, where would you put the cut off point?

For Labradors there are currently seven tests available, would you recommend the use of all of them? And at least another seven in the pipeline, so those, plus whatever the other breed requires?


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Liquidsunshine said:


> Maybe my post read a bit mean there, simply was interested in hearing your answer! I don;t think it cam across right elmo


No worries - I'm cross typing on two computers here so you probably got half of another document in the reply


----------



## Guest (Feb 10, 2011)

pearltheplank said:


> I think shetlandlover meant about pedigree dogs more than their actual breeders and I remember the one about 'should these be bred' or something like tha. About shar pei, my breed, and how bad they are. I didn't get snotty :confused1: and they are my love, Just answered factually
> 
> I don't know how to post a link


You mean this thread?

http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/127684-should-breeders-breeding-these-dogs.html


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> And what results? As we all know, there are some tests that can be bred clear from affected, so how are you going to police those?
> 
> And what about hip scores/elbow grades, where would you put the cut off point?
> 
> For Labradors there are currently seven tests available, would you recommend the use of all of them? And at least another seven in the pipeline, so those, plus whatever the other breed requires?


I'd recommend the compulsory use of the reliable tests. As and when breeders get used to the compulsion/regulation there would be two effects. The actual outcome of the results which could at least narrow the chances and at best stop some diseases and secondly a placebo effect that breeders will get into the habit of doing the tests. As the tests are refined over time (it took 10 years to refine the testing BSE) the results become more accurate and the identification of suitable/unsuitable animals becomes more accurate.

Hip and elbow tests are done on mean averages and many (UK) are simply subjective. PennHIP is slightly more accurate buts its simply comparing on a database - if hip/elbow is compulsory then there are more results = bigger database = more accurate results etc.


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

shetlandlover said:


> You mean this thread?
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/dog-breeding/127684-should-breeders-breeding-these-dogs.html


Five months ago?


----------



## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry, but that just does not make sense, as you well know, many breeds are closely related, so cross breeding does not necessarily widen a gene pool, and can in fact, introduce genetic defects that hadn't been a problem previously.


Sorry... just on this point.. if you had to compulsory test then you would not be able to breed if the defects showed.


----------



## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I'd recommend the compulsory use of the reliable tests. As and when breeders get used to the compulsion/regulation there would be two effects. The actual outcome of the results which could at least narrow the chances and at best stop some diseases and secondly a placebo effect that breeders will get into the habit of doing the tests. As the tests are refined over time (it took 10 years to refine the testing BSE) the results become more accurate and the identification of suitable/unsuitable animals becomes more accurate.
> 
> Hip and elbow tests are done on mean averages and many (UK) are simply subjective. PennHIP is slightly more accurate buts its simply comparing on a database - if hip/elbow is compulsory then there are more results = bigger database = more accurate results etc.


Wow, so you'd abandon years of data in preference of the US system for hip scores, despite the fact we've got better records in the UK?

And what do you call reliable, as regards to DNA testing? Because the test is only as reliable as the results, which are, so far, unproven of several generations.

You really make me chuckle, honestly, I only hope this thread serves as a warning to some, that things really are not that simple when it comes to buying a dog, and looking at health test results, and you can't always gauge whether a breeder is ethical, just because of health tests etc.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

I'll tell you what Elmo, since you're so concerned about health test results, why not let's compare?

Indie, who has been spayed
Hips 3/3
Elbows 2/1
GPRA clear
last BVA current clear eye cert was clear

Tau, still entire
Hips 0/0
Elbows 0/0
GPRA CBP
CNM Clear
last BVA current clear eye cert was clear

Willing to post, or not?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, so you'd abandon years of data in preference of the US system for hip scores, despite the fact we've got better records in the UK?
> 
> And what do you call reliable, as regards to DNA testing? Because the test is only as reliable as the results, which are, so far, unproven of several generations.
> 
> You really make me chuckle, honestly, I only hope this thread serves as a warning to some, that things really are not that simple when it comes to buying a dog, and looking at health test results, and you can't always gauge whether a breeder is ethical, just because of health tests etc.


Didn't think it would be long before you go back to being patronising.

Years of results are pointless if they too subjective, the base needs to be scientific not opinion. DNA testing for dogs is not good because its not been developed; livestock DNA is far more advance because of the commercial aspect and the compulsion.

You can't gauge whether a breeder is ethical because they do tests but you can certainly gauge ethics if they do none which is why the KC and breed clubs must impose testing or the system will never be there and we'll have another 138 years of guesswork for pedigrees and crossbreeders continuing unregulated.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> btw - did you realise that I'm psychic? I predicted way back in post #60 that Elmo would come on this thread and try to turn it into another "you hate crossbreeds/you hate me and my dogs" thread!


PMSL - having just seen this thread resurrected on page 3 and having read it from the start (skipping through some of the drivle in the more recent pages, I did wonder how long is would take.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'll tell you what Elmo, since you're so concerned about health test results, why not let's compare?
> 
> Indie, who has been spayed
> Hips 3/3
> ...


Nope..... if you look back (I think the post has been removed now though) I did that before and certain people tracked down the breeder and subjected them to hard time... not doing that again.... and... you'd simply say I made them up (which of course I could).


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Didn't think it would be long before you go back to being patronising.
> 
> Years of results are pointless if they too subjective, the base needs to be scientific not opinion. DNA testing for dogs is not good because its not been developed; livestock DNA is far more advance because of the commercial aspect and the compulsion.
> 
> You can't gauge whether a breeder is ethical because they do tests but you can certainly gauge ethics if they do none which is why the KC and breed clubs must impose testing or the system will never be there and we'll have another 138 years of guesswork for pedigrees and crossbreeders continuing unregulated.


So what are you saying, are the tests for dogs equivalent to those for livestock?

Health tests can't be imposed for a number of reasons, and if you'd read any of my previous posts regarding this, you would understand why.

But, if you're willing to post, you'll see I've posted the results of my two bitches, so fire away


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> artificial insemination...is this always? Is this a method of choice or need? Delivered by C -section ?? I often wonder if it can't be natural should it be done at all or is it just to fill a market demand..


Just to fill a demand IMO. But in answer to your first question, artificial insemination in KC reg dogs is not allowed in the UK except under exceptional circumstances and prior permission must be gained. That said, I know it goes on with bulldogs behind closed doors because they cannot easily mate naturally. But I suspect from what has been written, this poster may be in the US where AI is more commonly used.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Nope..... if you look back (I think the post has been removed now though) I did that before and certain people tracked down the breeder and subjected them to hard time... not doing that again.... and... you'd simply say I made them up (which of course I could).


Wow, so here I am, willing to stick the results of my inbred, mutant dogs out there for all and sundry, and cross breeders won't, says a lot really.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> PMSL - having just seen this thread resurrected on page 3 and having read it from the start (skipping through some of the drivle in the more recent pages, I did wonder how long is would take.


You and me both 

Elmo, I know I speak for more than just myself when I say I would like to see health test results (only polite seeing as SL has, eh?).


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So what are you saying, are the tests for dogs equivalent to those for livestock?
> 
> Health tests can't be imposed for a number of reasons, and if you'd read any of my previous posts regarding this, you would understand why.
> 
> But, if you're willing to post, you'll see I've posted the results of my two bitches, so fire away


I've read your posts and I don't agree with them. The health tests for livestock are far more accurate and regulated... are you saying that is a bad thing?

You can make a big thing about scores. My dogs aren't scored as I don't intend to breed (they are all speyed/neutered) but I have 6 gens of parents tests. I'm not posting for the reasons I've said so you and your psychic mates can have a dig at that.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, so here I am, willing to stick the results of my inbred, mutant dogs out there for all and sundry, and cross breeders won't, says a lot really.


Err. I've not said your dogs are inbred mutants, ever, I didn't follow the PDE thread or the programme. I think you're just back to slinging mud and starting a row again?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I've read your posts and I don't agree with them. The health tests for livestock are far more accurate an deregulated... are you saying that is a bad thing?
> 
> You can make a big thing about scores. My dogs aren't scored as I don't intend to breed (they are all speyed/neutered) but I have 6 gens of parents tests. I'm not posting for the reasons I've said so you and your psychic (or was that psycho :lol mates can have a dig at that.


Awww, now we've resorted to name calling


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, so here I am, willing to stick the results of my inbred, mutant dogs out there for all and sundry, and cross breeders won't, says a lot really.


I am happy to post up all health tests of every single dog in my dogs pedigree's if you all have the time to sit and wade through them all. 

Mine are up on the kennel club data base apart from the 6 week old eye exams which are not placed up as its usually before the kennle names have been picked.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Wow, so here I am, willing to stick the results of my inbred, mutant dogs out there for all and sundry, and cross breeders won't, says a lot really.


Says it all, hun!



Thorne said:


> You and me both
> 
> Elmo, I know I speak for more than just myself when I say I would like to see health test results (only polite seeing as SL has, eh?).


Must have something to hide, methinks!


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> but I think it's fair to say that some people do see them as being designer dogs, for example the poster who came on here saying they wanted a dog like the one the OP posted about. They went on to say (this isn't a direct quote) "I don't want a cavalier, they're too small, I don't want a labrador, they're too big, I want a mix. Hence, I want this dog- I can't even remember what it's name was- cavador?" And there is an element there: of I want this dog, I don't care whether the size difference between the parents is extreme, I don't give a fig if the parents are health tested (there seemed to be an assumption by that poster that all crosses are the epitome of health), willing to pay money to a breeder who is promoting the dog as "designer". Thats what makes me people angry. There are clearly a lot of ethical breeders, whether they are breeding crosses or pedigree, but there are a lot of dodgy breeders too, and they are milking these "designer breeds" (not my words, words from the breeders advertisement.) And people seeing these crosses assume, without question that these breeders are legit and are willing to pay so much money for a dog that might have been bred and whelped in appalling conditions,because they are so desperate for a perfectly healthy dog.(?!) I think this is what the OP was trying to say, NOT to have a go at people who do have healthy crosses, who do look into their breeders with care.
> You're all on the same side here. You all want to see ethical breeding, and healthy dogs, but people can't just assume that all pedigrees are riddled with disease and all crosses are genetically perfect.


Good post - it's comes across as if their inventing a recipe ..... a little bit of this and a little bit of that.....

One thing I notice is that these 'designer' cross breed owners jump on anyone regardless of what is being said. They seem to have some sort of chip on their shoulder. I don't see the same responses from owners of pedigress, rescues, accidental crosses and mutts


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Awww, now we've resorted to name calling


Just jumping on the bandwagon


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Good post - it's comes across as if their inventing a recipe ..... a little bit of this and a little bit of that.....
> 
> One thing I notice is that these 'designer' cross breed owners jump on anyone regardless of what is being said. They seem to have some sort of chip on their shoulder. I don't see the same responses from owners of pedigress, rescues, accidental crosses and mutts


That will doubtless be because we don't start loads of threads picking on every advert in the back of the freeads.


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## northnsouth (Nov 17, 2009)

rocco33 said:


> Just to fill a demand IMO. But in answer to your first question, artificial insemination in KC reg dogs is not allowed in the UK except under exceptional circumstances and prior permission must be gained. That said, *I know it goes on with bulldogs *behind closed doors because they cannot easily mate naturally. But I suspect from what has been written, this poster may be in the US where AI is more commonly used.


 
I was talking to some one at work who has paid so much for his bulldog, but she was third generation natural birth. That seemed like a good thing to me:thumbup:


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Spellweaver said:


> Must have something to hide, methinks!


Such as lack of?


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

Spellweaver said:


> Must have something to hide, methinks!


I have to agree, if the parents are KC registered the results will be on the kennel club database so surely all we need is the dogs pedigree names, you cant trace a breeder through that. My bitch's kennel name "Shellthorn" is used by 3/4 breeders who got dogs from them.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Thorne said:


> Such as lack of?


I'd if I post them... you simply say I've made them up.

My dogs aren't scored tested as I don't intend to breed - parents etc were but they are not my dogs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Well, I posted mine, in all honesty, and I have to say, Indie's elbow grades, were always under question as the vet mucked up the plates, and she was hit by a car as a pup, but, rather than risk it, I had her spayed. I even had the GPRA test done, convinced if she came back a carrier, it would make my decision easier, of course she was a pesky and healthy clear!!

And she currently shows no signs of any elbow problems, if I could clone her, I'd make millions, she's a fabulous, fabulous character!!! But her situation alone, serves to highlight the problem of statutory health tests, and limiting breeding according to results, it simply isn't plausible.


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> That will doubtless be because we don't start loads of threads picking on every advert in the back of the freeads.


Loads of threads? you mean one! There are more comments about so called 'accidental' litters on the breeding thread and yet I don't see everyone who owns a pup from an accidental litter charging in to make such a fuss.


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## Spellweaver (Jul 17, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> That will doubtless be because we don't start loads of threads picking on every advert in the back of the freeads.


No, you just try to turn every thread you post on into a "you are all against crossbreeds" thread.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I'd if I post them... you simply say I've made them up.
> 
> My dogs aren't scored tested as I don't intend to breed - parents etc were but they are not my dogs.


Not if they are traceable back to the KC database, that way no-one can say you've made them up


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

rocco33 said:


> Loads of threads? you mean one! There are more comments about so called 'accidental' litters on the breeding thread and yet I don't see everyone who owns a pup from an accidental litter charging in to make such a fuss.


So this is the only thread that has resulted in the generalisation that crossbreeding is unethical etc... recently... I'll retract loads and insert many then


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not if they are traceable back to the KC database, that way no-one can say you've made them up


My breeder has already had to change her phone number from the last time I did that... so thanks but no thanks.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> I have to agree, if the parents are KC registered the results will be on the kennel club database so surely all we need is the dogs pedigree names, you cant trace a breeder through that. My bitch's kennel name "Shellthorn" is used by 3/4 breeders who got dogs from them.





Sleeping_Lion said:


> Not if they are traceable back to the KC database, that way no-one can say you've made them up


Just bumping my post up. 

I am not ashamed to say that my bitch's line isnt as health tested as I would like however breeders are now becoming better with the health tests, many of the older breeders believe that only the stud should be health tested which imo is crap, both should be.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

Can we stop this arguing and go to the original discussion. There are several questions that haven't been answered from relativly new members. I will close this thread if it doesn't stop now...


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> My breeder has already had to change her phone number from the last time I did that... so thanks but no thanks.


How would posting health test results alone do anything but show they are from health tested parents? You've accepted the ones I posted, so why not just post the ones for your dogs? I haven't put full pedigree names, or sire/dam names etc.


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

In case you forgot... 

Sickening

RARE CAVADOR PUPPIES for sale (labrador/cavalier) The only current litter of these rare puppies in the UK that we know of.Only available in the USA and Australia untill now!! Natural mating between our pedigree KC reg black labrador bitch and our pedigree blenheim cavalier king charles dog.Stay looking like a labrador puppy all of their life without the size issues of a full grown labrador. Classed as Designer Hybrids in the usa .Golden and black available.Dogs and bitches.Deposits being taken now.Only a few left.Prices from £1000.Serious enquiries only please for these EXTREMELLY RARE,NOT TO BE MISSED PUPPIES.....


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How would posting health test results alone do anything but show they are from health tested parents? You've accepted the ones I posted, so why not just post the ones for your dogs? I haven't put full pedigree names, or sire/dam names etc.


Because you would say I made them up unless I give you the names to trace...to the KC and the breeder. No thanks.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> In case you forgot...
> 
> Sickening
> 
> RARE CAVADOR PUPPIES for sale (labrador/cavalier) The only current litter of these rare puppies in the UK that we know of.Only available in the USA and Australia untill now!! Natural mating between our pedigree KC reg black labrador bitch and our pedigree blenheim cavalier king charles dog.Stay looking like a labrador puppy all of their life without the size issues of a full grown labrador. Classed as Designer Hybrids in the usa .Golden and black available.Dogs and bitches.Deposits being taken now.Only a few left.Prices from £1000.Serious enquiries only please for these EXTREMELLY RARE,NOT TO BE MISSED PUPPIES.....


I know Jill, I posted it  and I hope the robust discussion hasn't put people off joining in, I for one wont resort to name calling or personal criticism of any other members. Although I will always question ethics, after all, if we don't no one else will on behalf of dogs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Because you would say I made them up unless I give you the names to trace...to the KC and the breeder. No thanks.


So do you accept the results I posted?


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> I'd if I post them... you simply say I've made them up.
> 
> My dogs aren't scored tested as I don't intend to breed - parents etc were but they are not my dogs.


If you'd post them I wouldn't assume you were lying. That's one hell of a chip you've got on your shoulder...

Might this be a good opportunity to say that KC reg Scooter (in my sig) is from largely untested lines? I fully support and condone health testing for any dog that's to be bred from but when my mum bought him 8.5yrs ago no-one in my family had heard of health tests. So far we've been lucky with Scooter but I would never purchase a pup from untested parents in the future, I now see it as gambling on a dog's health.
Breeze is from tested lines and parents.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So do you accept the results I posted?


Does it matter, my opinion is "invalid"


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Thorne said:


> If you'd post them I wouldn't assume you were lying. That's one hell of a chip you've got on your shoulder...


If you look back in previous threads when I said I had pedigree and tests from both parents and generations I was clearly told by one poster they must be made up. My chip has some substance.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Does it matter, my opinion is "invalid"


Wow, just the sort of adult response I'd hope for, reach to embrace the cross breeder, and they throw you a bungee rope, great


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## rocco33 (Dec 27, 2009)

> So this is the only thread that has resulted in the generalisation that crossbreeding is unethical etc... recently... I'll retract loads and insert many then


Resulted in? No, but read your original comment - you said '*start* loads of threads.....'



> start loads of threads picking on every advert in the back of the freeads.


Besides, I noticed any mention of crossbreeds gets those with designer dogs wading in and taking off.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Does it matter, my opinion is "invalid"


You are being silly now.

You want us to believe that there are decent cross breed breeders out there but wont even post the results of your dogs parents health tests?

If they are not health tested its nothing to be ashamed of..we live and learn.
Alaska's parents were not hip scored or DNA tested. Whihc I am upset about but its life, my girl is healthy, happy and a greatly loved member of my family.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

I would just like to say elmo, no-one has said that cross breeders have no ethics, in my previous post I said some are, who on the back of the bad publicity that pedigrees have had, are making a killing as people turn to what they perceive as healthier crosses. To be honest I don't know much about health testing etc, so can't really comment, but I would like to learn, but if you turn these threads into tit for tat arguments, it benefits no-one. I think it was mentioned in a different post and I think sleeping lion touched on it, that there are so many tests for different breeds that it would be hard to regulate them. It would be and is for me anyway utterly mind boggling. But the thread wasn't started as a personal attack on crosses, merely drawing attention to the unethical breeders out there.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Liquidsunshine said:


> I would just like to say elmo, no-one has said that cross breeders have no ethics, in my previous post I said some are, who on the back of the bad publicity that pedigrees have had, are making a killing as people turn to what they perceive as healthier crosses. To be honest I don't know much about health testing etc, so can't really comment, but I would like to learn, but if you turn these threads into tit for tat arguments, it benefits no-one. I think it was mentioned in a different post and I think sleeping lion touched on it, that there are so many tests for different breeds that it would be hard to regulate them. It would be and is for me anyway utterly mind boggling. But the thread wasn't started as a personal attack on crosses, merely drawing attention to the unethical breeders out there.


Bl**dy good post!! Off to go and give you rep for that one!


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

canuckjill said:


> In case you forgot...
> 
> Sickening
> 
> RARE CAVADOR PUPPIES for sale (labrador/cavalier) The only current litter of these rare puppies in the UK that we know of.Only available in the USA and Australia untill now!! Natural mating between our pedigree KC reg black labrador bitch and our pedigree blenheim cavalier king charles dog.Stay looking like a labrador puppy all of their life without the size issues of a full grown labrador. Classed as Designer Hybrids in the usa .Golden and black available.Dogs and bitches.Deposits being taken now.Only a few left.Prices from £1000.Serious enquiries only please for these EXTREMELLY RARE,NOT TO BE MISSED PUPPIES.....


The advert is outrageous and the breeder in question (if anyone would regulate) should regulate them. The price is outrageous (although the same price asked for Red Poodle puppies) and the many people I know who breed first cross don't even charge half of that (and do not cross the dogs in question).


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> Can we stop this arguing and go to the original discussion. There are several questions that haven't been answered from relativly new members. I will close this thread if it doesn't stop now...


Sorry canuckjill, completely missed this.

RE the Cavadors, if it weren't for the huge size difference I wouldn't object to health tested dogs being bred from to create a crossbreed. However, I'm pretty certain the highlighted breeder does not breed ethically and is instead cashing in big time on the "cute", "designer" and "rare" factor.

ETA: I get the impression that many of the more recent "designer crosses" springing up were thought up on a whim, i.e. "I like Cavs and I like Labs, why not breed them together?". There's also the recent project to recreate the Cav using Cocker and Papillon crosses 
I also really dislike the use of the word "hybrid" when referring to said dogs, especially across the pond. A true hybrid would be an interspecies cross, like Wolf Dogs and Mules.


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Liquidsunshine said:


> I would just like to say elmo, no-one has said that cross breeders have no ethics, in my previous post I said some are, who on the back of the bad publicity that pedigrees have had, are making a killing as people turn to what they perceive as healthier crosses. To be honest I don't know much about health testing etc, so can't really comment, but I would like to learn, but if you turn these threads into tit for tat arguments, it benefits no-one. I think it was mentioned in a different post and I think sleeping lion touched on it, that there are so many tests for different breeds that it would be hard to regulate them. It would be and is for me anyway utterly mind boggling. But the thread wasn't started as a personal attack on crosses, merely drawing attention to the unethical breeders out there.


There are many posts (in many threads) whether by statement or inference state that crossbreeding itself is unethical and therefore all those who engage in it are unethical. I agree the health testing is hard to make compulsory but are we really saying that we shouldn't start?

I don't usually bother trying to defend myself but I made one comment on this thread that was simply dismissed; I don't have any issue with everyone disagreeing with me (I make a living out of it) but I would never dismiss someone opinion as invalid or irrelevant, regardless of how much I disagree with it.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

shetlandlover said:


> You are being silly now.
> 
> You want us to believe that there are decent cross breed breeders out there but wont even post the results of your dogs parents health tests?
> 
> ...


Bump..for Elmo.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> If you look back in previous threads when I said I had pedigree and tests from both parents and generations I was clearly told by *one poster *they must be made up. My chip has some substance.


I'm not reading page after page of posts to find the one person that's offended you I'm afraid.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> There are many posts (in many threads) whether by statement or inference state that crossbreeding itself is unethical and therefore all those who engage in it are unethical. I agree the health testing is hard to make compulsory but are we really saying that we shouldn't start?
> 
> I don't usually bother trying to defend myself but I made one comment on this thread that was simply dismissed; I don't have any issue with everyone disagreeing with me (I make a living out of it) but I would never dismiss someone opinion as invalid or irrelevant, regardless of how much I disagree with it.


I'm sorry, but I know I've made, and many other members have made, the effort to ensure when ethical breeding is discussed, that there is a place for ethical cross breeding. You seem to have ignored this completely, and have your own agenda for trying to discredit pedigree dogs.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

OK Elmo, since you're unwilling to post results, why not just give us a glimmer of hope, and confirm that health tests are in place, appropriate ones for the breed(s), and that they are acceptable results?


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> and have your own agenda for trying to discredit pedigree dogs.


If you can find the post where I did that I'd appreciate it. Don't think my collies and the poodle would appreciate it.

I don't have a problem with pedigree dogs (why would I???.... my favourite type of dog is a golden retriever x SP...). I have a problem with poor breeding of anything. I don't think all pedigrees are badly bred and I object to anyone who says all crosses are... it simply annoys me that the pedigree community has the network to stop poor breeding... if there was such a network for crosses I'd be lobbying it to shut down the muppet who is the subject of this thread.


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

That may be the case, I haven't had many experience of these, being relatively new here, but I don't think it was inferred here, and I think you kind of made more of an issue of it.
When it comes to stuff we're passionate about it is very rare for people to see eye to eye, and things can get heated, I'm not saying that I agree with saying that someones opinion is valid, but when the other person engages with not very nice behaviour in return...it's hard to have an argument. I don't want to take sides or get involved whatever, but it kind of gets in the way of the initial issue, which was some pr*t selling a poor dog for extortionate amounts, unethically. 

As I said I don't really know enough about health testing to give an informed answer, so if it's going to start somewhere, it certainly won't be with me, lol!


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

canuckjill said:


> In case you forgot...
> 
> Sickening
> 
> RARE CAVADOR PUPPIES for sale (labrador/cavalier) The only current litter of these rare puppies in the UK that we know of.Only available in the USA and Australia untill now!! Natural mating between our pedigree KC reg black labrador bitch and our pedigree blenheim cavalier king charles dog.Stay looking like a labrador puppy all of their life without the size issues of a full grown labrador. Classed as Designer Hybrids in the usa .Golden and black available.Dogs and bitches.Deposits being taken now.Only a few left.Prices from £1000.Serious enquiries only please for these EXTREMELLY RARE,NOT TO BE MISSED PUPPIES.....


]*I really think that as this advert has been posted twice and it was obviously only going to cause a debate about crossbreeds that this thread should not have been allowed to have been started in the first place.

After all there is a crossbreed rule by the mods is there not?

Whenever I or others try and reason with people we often get accused of wanting to start an argument.

I thought arguments took two people.*

I have only popped on tonight to check messages but wanted to post.

After days of constantly having the same battles with the same people who are continually making sweeping statements and taking a lot of my posts out of context and saying the same stuff over again. I have had enough.

I am coming off this forum for a break and haven't decided as to whether I will return. ( I know some of you are clapping at this point and I don't care)

If the aim of this section of the forum is to constantly have crossbreed owners having to defend their choices over and over again on numerous threads- then this is not the forum for me.

I shall leave you to bitch amongst yourselves because in the end you will drive all the crossbreeds owners away.

You say it's not about the dogs but the breeders well sorry it's not just the breeders you attack but the owners ( indirectly).


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> OK Elmo, since you're unwilling to post results, why not just give us a glimmer of hope, and confirm that health tests are in place, appropriate ones for the breed(s), and that they are acceptable results?


Even an additional eye test (that I'd never heard of) for the Poodle (mum). That's only one of the dogs though.

Elmo is a rescue. The collies are KC all bar one which is from a farm (an actual farm not a puppy farm). William (Toy Poodle) is a rescue and whilst we've seen his papers they didn't really interest us... although the test were fine.

Sorry forgot to add - the tests (for the dog whose parents were tested) had over and above what was recommended for retrievers and poodles. This was why we went to that breeder. Whilst she was advertised as a "Goldendoodle" the ad clearly stated "Golden Retriever cross Standard Poodle" - Goldendoodle is an acronym to describe the two breeds that are crossed.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Cockerpoo lover said:


> ]*I really think that as this advert has been posted twice and it was obviously only going to cause a debate about crossbreeds that this thread should not have been allowed to have been started in the first place.
> 
> After all there is a crossbreed rule by the mods is there not?
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you feel that way, I've always tried to make a point to ensure people don't feel put out by what I post, and apologise before hand if what I post is controversial. I feel, if you go, we'll be losing someone who sees both sides of the argument, and is for the dogs, which is sad


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> *I don't have a problem with pedigree dogs* (why would I???.... my favourite type of dog is a golden retriever x SP...). *I have a problem with poor breeding of anything*. I don't think all pedigrees are badly bred and I object to anyone who says all crosses are... it simply annoys me that the pedigree community has the network to stop poor breeding... if there was such a network for crosses I'd be lobbying it to shut down the muppet who is the subject of this thread.


I've always been under the impression that the vast, vast majority of this forum shares this view... I know I do...


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## Elmo the Bear (Oct 3, 2008)

Thorne said:


> I've always been under the impression that the vast, vast majority of this forum shares this view... I know I do...


Doesn't seem that way when I say it... must be the face


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## Liquidsunshine (Jan 24, 2011)

I always assumed thats what this thread was about.  Maybe we should all kiss and makeup now?
And cockerpoo, I don't think you should leave the forum, I've read a lot of your posts, and think you have a lot of great advice.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Elmo the Bear said:


> Even and additional eye test (that I'd never heard of) for the Poodle (mum). That's only one of the dogs though.
> 
> Elmo is a rescue. The collies are KC all bar one which is from a farm (an actual farm not a puppy farm). William (Toy Poodle) is a rescue and whilst we've seen his papers they didn't really interest us... although the test were fine.


I really am saddened by your attitude towards me, and some of the members of this forum. If we all worked together to try and eradicate unethical breeding of dogs, we could, but we all seem to be at loggerheads.

I love my pedigree dogs, but have admitted time, and time again, there has to be a place for the ethical breeding of pet dogs, the demand is there, and people will always step into the divide to fulfil that demand.

And whilst you and I are here bickering, about regulating health tests for this that and the other, puppy farmers are updating their websites with the next litter(s) available.

If you love dogs, as you profess, then agree to disagree, and promote the health tests that are appropriate, as any of us do. We all seem to remember, it's the dogs that are the victim, not us, so why be divisive when we could all stand together against irresponsible breeders?


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## canuckjill (Jun 25, 2008)

I think in truth it seems we all agree on one thing its not the dogs that are a concern but the breeders of any dogs pure or cross that don't research and do the necessary tests required for the said breed or breeds. Now cockerpoo lover is right in that obviously this is a very sensitive topic still...And was only recently brought to my attention, thought it was worth a try at debating...So I'll close it as per PF rules...


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## Cockerpoo lover (Oct 15, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way, I've always tried to make a point to ensure people don't feel put out by what I post, and apologise before hand if what I post is controversial. I feel, if you go, we'll be losing someone who sees both sides of the argument, and is for the dogs, which is sad


Thank you 

I know we have had major differences but we did agree on one thread concerning breeding. ( well eventually :lol


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