# Leernberg



## theshoefairy (Nov 23, 2013)

Anyone had any experience with this and is he any good? Just watching the video and so far so good


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Leerburg site is a great resource for different views and trainers and books and DVDs.

If you pick and choose wisely you can learn a lot.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2013)

Ed Frawley has some old articles still floating around out there that make me cringe, but his videos (especially the ones featuring Michael Ellis) are very informative IMO.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

theshoefairy said:


> Anyone had any experience with this and is he any good? Just watching the video and so far so good


If you mean Ed Frawley then his got some wonderful training aids.

Heres some excerpts from one of his Dominant Dog CollarTM

This collar is not intended to give a painful correction.
It's intended to take the air away from a dominant aggressive dog.

This collar was designed to be used on handler aggressive or dog aggressive dogs. Using a prong collar on these kinds of dogs often over stimulates the dog and makes them hectic and more aggressive. Using a dominant dog collar correctly (with emphasis on correctly) on the same dog takes drive and fight out of the dog.

I assume that people who use this collar for handler aggression have run their dog through our pack structure program I outline in my DVDs.

Some countries (IE Australia, and a few in Europe etc.) do not allow remote collars (electric collars) because animal activists who have no experience training dominant dogs have taken control of their legal system. These dominant dog collars are a viable alternative.

I am not a fan of choke collars as training collars. There are only a few legitimate training collars: a flat collar (leather or nylon), a prong collar, an remote collar (electric collar), and (with aggressive dogs) these dominant dog collars.

With more aggressive dogs (on which other methods have failed) the handler should lift the dogs front feet off the ground for a few seconds until the dog settles down from his aggressive rage (see photo to left). This also tells the dog that you will not tolerate his behavior.

Most aggressive dogs only need to have their front feet lifted off the ground a few times to realize that you can take their air away when you want. This is not painful for the dog.

I set these dogs up by putting on a hidden protectve sleeve. I also have a second handler there for back-up and for safety. I will have a line over a tree limb with the line hanging down near the level of my knee.

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something (usually this only requires a pop on the leash) which causes the dog to attack me. When he tries to bite me I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. While the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell the dog is a calm quiet voice that he should not bite me. It's extremley important that this all happens at the same time the dog is biting the hander.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. That is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.

For those people who have never experienced the danger of a dog bite I strongly suggest you have a look at the web page we have created that shows the damage dogs can do when they bite their owners. A warning here becase the photos are very very graphic (click here).

After this is done the dog is put away to think about what just happened. The next day he is brought back to the same spot and is tested again to see if he will again attack. Very very seldom will a dog do this more than two days in a row. Dogs that continue after 3 days almost always have some form of mental problems, usually a brain tumor. Those dogs need to dealt with by a Vet.

Ill leave you to decide.


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## theshoefairy (Nov 23, 2013)

Ah damn, Just watching the vid and came to bit where he recommends using electric collars. Think I will give him a miss lol


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## theshoefairy (Nov 23, 2013)

WOW Sled Dog, that is just disgusting! What a tit!


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2013)

Yes, you are going to see e-collar discussions on the Leerburg site and in Leerburg videos. That doesn't mean the rest of the information offered in null and void. 
Anyone interested in OC and marker training, drive building, getting engagement and focus, how to reward, reward placement, timing, and tons of other aspects of effective rewards based training could stand to learn a ton from the Leerburg videos that address all of the above.

Edit:
I think it's unfortunate that so many people are (understandably) turned off by sites like Leerburg that do feature things like e-collars and prongs. Because so often when rewards-based training appears to fail, or to not "work" for that particular dog, it's often because of a failure in understanding drive and motivation. Most of the pet training world really doesn't *get* the whole drive thing, how to get a dog engaged, in drive, focused. Pet dog training is all about making a dog easy to live with, and much of what makes dogs *easy* is keeping them out of drive. But us pet dog people can stand to learn a lot from trainers who are more in-tune to working dogs in drive.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

theshoefairy said:


> WOW Sled Dog, that is just disgusting! What a tit!


Google World Famous Frawley castle Website, Castles another Tit as you put it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sled dog hotel said:


> If you mean Ed Frawley then his got some wonderful training aids.
> 
> Heres some excerpts from one of his Dominant Dog CollarTM
> 
> ...


Blimey, is this crap still on his website? I remember reading this years ago and being disgusted by it.


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## Sled dog hotel (Aug 11, 2010)

labradrk said:


> Blimey, is this crap still on his website? I remember reading this years ago and being disgusted by it.


It would appear it is or else I assume I wouldn't have found it.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Yes, you are going to see e-collar discussions on the Leerburg site and in Leerburg videos. That doesn't mean the rest of the information offered in null and void.
> Anyone interested in OC and marker training, drive building, getting engagement and focus, how to reward, reward placement, timing, and tons of other aspects of effective rewards based training could stand to learn a ton from the Leerburg videos that address all of the above.


I agree Michael Ellis's stuff is really good. But how much of the 'good stuff' is actually down to Mr Leerburg? I don't know much about him or how 'accomplished' he is in the dog world, bar some of the crap he writes.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> Yes, you are going to see e-collar discussions on the Leerburg site and in Leerburg videos. That doesn't mean the rest of the information offered in null and void.
> Anyone interested in OC and marker training, drive building, getting engagement and focus, how to reward, reward placement, timing, and tons of other aspects of effective rewards based training could stand to learn a ton from the Leerburg videos that address all of the above.
> 
> Edit:
> I think it's unfortunate that so many people are (understandably) turned off by sites like Leerburg that do feature things like e-collars and prongs. Because so often when rewards-based training appears to fail, or to not "work" for that particular dog, it's often because of a failure in understanding drive and motivation. Most of the pet training world really doesn't *get* the whole drive thing, how to get a dog engaged, in drive, focused. Pet dog training is all about making a dog easy to live with, and much of what makes dogs *easy* is keeping them out of drive. But us pet dog people can stand to learn a lot from trainers who are more in-tune to working dogs in drive.


Yep, just because your religion forbids drinking alcohol does not mean you have to avoid everything else in the supermarket. 

Just that aisle.

I remember Kathy Sdao saying whilst she was over here, your aim in training a dog should not be "can a dead dog do it", not everyone got that...................


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2013)

smokeybear said:


> Yep, just because your religion forbids drinking alcohol does not mean you have to avoid everything else in the supermarket.
> 
> Just that aisle.
> 
> I remember Kathy Sdao saying whilst she was over here, your aim in training a dog should not be "can a dead dog do it", not everyone got that...................


I don't know that I get it either  unless the reference is to behavior and the definition there of.  Something about if a dead dog can do it it's not a behavior?


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

ouesi said:


> I don't know that I get it either  unless the reference is to behavior and the definition there of.  Something about if a dead dog can do it it's not a behavior?


A lot of people want their dogs to lie down and be quiet and that is about it.

So Kathy reckons if your ambition is for your dog to do something that a dead dog can accomplish, that is not much of an ambition and also that it cannot be that difficult to achieve...............


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## Dober (Jan 2, 2012)

Ive watched quite a lot of the Michael Ellis videos on the Leerburg website, I found they helped me quite a bit with engagement, heelwork and other bits and pieces for IPO. Its nice to sometimes see how someone else would approach something.

I found that the videos I watched from Michael Ellis (which were about engagement, heelwork, building toy drive ect) were actually not very 'pushy' on the punitive measures and much more focused positive focused. He discussed uses for prong collars and alternatives. 

Personally, I like to read all the information I can about how to 'tackle an obstacle' so to speak, then decide for myself what I think will be best for my dog. You can cherry pick useful information; I would never just blindly accept everything one person says, no matter who they are.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2013)

One of my favorites from ME 

If you dont enjoy watching this, your smile button is broken!

[youtube_browser]CsOGOmWhQZE[/youtube_browser]


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

They use shock collars and highly recommend them and I've also read some other things they do that made me shudder, frankly. I seem to recall it involved repeatedly cutting off a dog's air supply...


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## ClaireandDaisy (Jul 4, 2010)

Only if you advocate bullying as a training method.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> They use shock collars and highly recommend them and I've also read some other things they do that made me shudder, frankly. I seem to recall it involved repeatedly cutting off a dog's air supply...


Yeah, that would be in the bit SDH posted.

Hey Owned, you know that trainer whos videos Ive sent you who you like so much? Hes a Michael Ellis protege, in fact youll see him in many a Leerburg video.

That kid has now taken the knowledge he learnt from Frawley and Ellis and has figured out force-free ways to train to and sometimes beyond the levels of his mentors.

Ive read a good many Michael Ellis articles on shock collars, and no where does he *recommend* them. In fact hes very clear about their limitations and many pitfalls. In fact I have used his quotes to argue against the use of shock collars.
I think if you were to talk to him in person, a shock collar would be so far down on his list of recommended tools for a pet owner as to not be on there.

But then again, I see miserable dogs on head halters so often... And yet head halters are something very often recommended by the pure positive dog world.

Its just not that black and white. I used to judge a trainer by their tools of chose and the religion (sorry, methodology) the ascribed to. I feel fortunate to have since learned that good observational skills, dog skills, empathy, clarity of purpose, an open mind, willingness to grow... None of those things are unique to a certain style of training. There are both positive and punitive trainers who couldnt read a dog if he came with subtitles, there are both positive and punitive trainers who have amazing dog skills and can get the best out of any dog. 
We can all learn from each other.


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## theshoefairy (Nov 23, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> They use shock collars and highly recommend them and I've also read some other things they do that made me shudder, frankly. I seem to recall it involved repeatedly cutting off a dog's air supply...


How on earth can he be recognised as a good dog trainer in the dog world after doing this kind of stuff? In the video I started watching he talked crap about corrections for about 20 minues. I then read a few replies here, skipped to further into the video and noticed the collars and also he mentioned about a sour apple spray to get the dog to stop chewing. Basically he said to soak a cotton ball in the stuff, put it in the dogs mouth and hold the mouth closed for a minute, the spray stuff that you don't want the dog to touch. I can see how it would work and getting her to stop chewing things would be a dream right now but that seems awfully cruel.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2013)

theshoefairy said:


> How on earth can he be recognised as a good dog trainer in the dog world after doing this kind of stuff? In the video I started watching he talked crap about corrections for about 20 minues. I then read a few replies here, skipped to further into the video and noticed the collars and also he mentioned about a sour apple spray to get the dog to stop chewing. Basically he said to soak a cotton ball in the stuff, put it in the dogs mouth and hold the mouth closed for a minute, the spray stuff that you don't want the dog to touch. I can see how it would work and getting her to stop chewing things would be a dream right now but that seems awfully cruel.


Depends on which he youre talking about. I honestly dont know much about Ed Frawley and his dog skills.
Michael Ellis is recognized as a good trainer because he is. Actually, saying ME is a good dog trainer is a ridiculous understatement. Hes a fabulous trainer who has amazing dog skills and a deep understanding of the science, and a real knack for putting it all in to an understandable, easy to follow format.
As far as I can tell, its ME who is largely responsible for bringing Ed out of the dark ages and convincing him to use and promote marker training and using rewards in training.

There are a bazillion Leerburg videos out there, some better than others, so I have no clue which video youre talking about.

The trainer featured in the video below, as you can hear, learned MEs system (marker training) and AFAIK, currently trains wholly without aversives. He, Denise Fenzi, and another US bite sport trainer I know to be force-free seem to be collaborating a lot lately. But seriously, even if he werent force-free, his skills are amazing, and just watching him work with this young dog (puppy), you can tell what a talent he has. I certainly can't look at a video like this and think I have nothing to learn here."
[youtube_browser]CqRksbKrYSI[/youtube_browser]


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

ouesi said:


> One of my favorites from ME
> 
> If you dont enjoy watching this, your smile button is broken!


I loved the ME training clips I have watched, been fantastic for showing how to motivate dogs.

Am defintely going to get some of his DVD's

I completely agree with Dober, I never blindly follow advice form one person but prefer to read/watch from various people & take bits & pieces that I like & think will work with my dogs.

I have learnt alot from visiting many different people in the 'dog world', I may not agree with everything they advise but I would be foolish to ignore everything they said simply because I didn't agree 100% with them


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2013)

Cleo38 said:


> I loved the ME training clips I have watched, been fantastic for showing how to motivate dogs.
> 
> Am defintely going to get some of his DVD's
> 
> ...


LOL! There would be no one left if I ignored anyone I didnt 100% agree with. Hell, I dont even agree with myself half the time!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I've read Cesar Milans books, not because I like him but because I want to know what I'm talking about when I say I don't like him  There's stuff I agree with him on (not much, but some lol) and stuff I disagree with better (imo) trainers on. I'm another who'll read and watch and then take what I can from each and discard the stuff I don't like. I won't blindly dismiss a trainer simply because I know they've done something I personally disagree with.

I think it's a shame the leerburg site has such a bad rep in a way, there's a lot of fantastic stuff on there as well as the old, out dated crap.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Yeah, that would be in the bit SDH posted.
> 
> Hey Owned, you know that trainer whos videos Ive sent you who you like so much? Hes a Michael Ellis protege, in fact youll see him in many a Leerburg video.
> 
> ...


I have no issue with Michael Ellis at all.

But when I read Ed Fawley cheerfully describing how he cut off a dog's air supply three times and after that the dog 'understood' what it should and shouldn't do - then yeah, I do take issue with that.

Nor do I accept that the use of headcollars is a valid comparison. Headcollars if fitted properly are not aversive. Yes it's awful that some owners don't take the time to find the most comfy one but EVEN then the headcollars are not repeatedly choking the dog and preventing them from breathing.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> ...Kathy Sdao [said] whilst she was over here, 'your aim in training a dog should not be,
> *"can a dead dog do it?"*, not everyone got that...





ouesi said:


> I don't know that I get it either  unless the reference is to behavior & the definition thereof.
> Something about 'if a dead dog can do it, it's not a behavior?'


It's popularly known as the 'Dead-Dog Rule':
"Anything a dead dog can do, is not a trainable behavior."

All of the *"nots"* are dead-dog behaviors:
DON't bark, DON't jump-up, DON't pee indoors, Don't get on the sofa, DON't... 
Those are classically the things puppy-owners say they 'want their dogs to learn'. The problem is,
we can't teach a NON-behavior - it's an oxymoron. Instead, i tell clients to think of what they WANT
their dog to DO: _"bark once or twice for visitors, then shut-up."_ No problem!  We can teach that,
the dog is perfectly capable of learning it & doing it.

DON't jump-up? *"Sit for attention."*
DON't pee indoors? *"Void [& vomit] outside."*
DON't get on the sofa? *"Go to Ur bed."*
All teachable, understandable, & do-able - for the humans & the dog.



smokeybear said:


> A lot of people want their dogs to "lie down & be quiet", & that's about it.
> 
> ...Kathy reckons if your ambition is for your dog to do something that a dead dog can accomplish,
> that's not much of an ambition, & also that *"it cannot be that difficult to achieve..." *


*

If Kathy really thinks teaching dead-dog behaviors is easy,  i'd disagree - I've never heard her
in person, but i doubt she literally said that, because dead-dog behaviors are VERY hard, in fact
they're impossible to teach, since they are the quintessence of "NOT doing anything". There's no such thing
as a dog who's alive & capable of movement, who does nothing - we can't leave the dog in a behavioral 
vacuum, not knowing what TO DO, because the dog will fill it with "something" - something random, which, 
odds are good, we won't want.  Bummer - especially for the dog.

If we fill the vacuum with behaviors we DO want, problem solved: the dog knows what we want,
is no longer flailing about trying to pick something that won't p*ss us off [& inevitably failing, 
since there are a helluva lot more possible-but-unwanted behaviors than ones that are apropos],
& we get desired behaviors, appropriate to the circumstances.
Everyone's happy. :thumbup1:
.
.*


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I have no issue with Michael Ellis at all.
> 
> But when I read Ed Fawley cheerfully describing how he cut off a dog's air supply three times and after that the dog 'understood' what it should and shouldn't do - then yeah, I do take issue with that.
> 
> Nor do I accept that the use of headcollars is a valid comparison. *Headcollars if fitted properly are not aversive*. Yes it's awful that some owners don't take the time to find the most comfy one but EVEN then the headcollars are not repeatedly choking the dog and preventing them from breathing.


Sorry but I disgree. This has been discussed before & surely it is the dog who decides what is aversive rather than the owner :confused1:

Roxy had several headcollars, all of which were correcty fitted & I took a great deal of time in trying to desensitize her to them .... she hated every single one if them. Even now if I am fumbling a round in the cupboard for leads (& stuff!) & I accidentally get the head collar out she will run away

With Toby, I never bothered getting him used to a head collar (I had a shoulder injury at the time) & he was fine, no problems.

I know a few people who use prong collars on their dogs (not something I do) & their dogs do not hate these as much as Roxy hated her headcollar


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry but I disgree. This has been discussed before & surely it is the dog who decides what is aversive rather than the owner :confused1:
> 
> Roxy had several headcollars, all of which were correcty fitted & I took a great deal of time in trying to desensitize her to them .... she hated every single one if them. Even now if I am fumbling a round in the cupboard for leads (& stuff!) & I accidentally get the head collar out she will run away
> 
> ...


I accept that some dogs will never get used to wearing a headcollar. I also fully agree that most if not all dogs would probably be happy never to wear one.

However, even for a dog that dislikes wearing one, a headcollar is not cutting off the air supply - and cutting off the oxygen is not merely aversive, it is what I would label 'torture'.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I accept that some dogs will never get used to wearing a headcollar. I also fully agree that most if not all dogs would probably be happy never to wear one.
> 
> However, even for a dog that dislikes wearing one, a headcollar is not cutting off the air supply - and cutting off the oxygen is not merely aversive, it is what I would label 'torture'.


But that's it isn't it ... what 'you' would label torture .... for some dogs this may be torture for some, they may get over it quickly. I am not advocating abusing dogs at all but had to comment that it is the dog that decides what is aversive & not the person.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Ed Frawley states for instance that when he brings a new dog home, he totally 'isolates' that dog for a time period that can last days or weeks. No affection. Just water, food, and being taken outside to relieve itself.

Just my humble view, but personally I think this borders on cruelty:

http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> But that's it isn't it ... what 'you' would label torture .... for some dogs this may be torture for some, they may get over it quickly. I am not advocating abusing dogs at all but had to comment that it is the dog that decides what is aversive & not the person.


So repeatedly cutting off a dog's oxygen is not torture?

Is it something you would ever do....?

I don't think it makes any difference whether a dog 'gets over it quickly' or not - it cannot be right to cut off a dog's air supply.


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## Dimwit (Nov 10, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> But that's it isn't it ... what 'you' would label torture .... for some dogs this may be torture for some, they may get over it quickly. I am not advocating abusing dogs at all but had to comment that it is the dog that decides what is aversive & not the person.


I agree with this. I have seen dogs trotting along quite happily in the dreaded choke chain, and have also seen dogs in a blind panic when their headcollar tightens round their face (not to mention the potential damage done by dogs doing gymnastics while wearing headcollars). As has been said many times, anything can be aversive or cause damage in the wrong hands, and all dogs are individual, and will react differently.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Ed Frawley states for instance that when he brings a new dog home, he totally 'isolates' that dog for a time period that can last days or weeks. No affection. Just water, food, and being taken outside to relieve itself.
> 
> Just my humble view, but personally I think this borders on cruelty:
> 
> http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf


Sorry, I can't read all that as I'm too tired - will do tomorrow though 

In some ways I can see the logic in that but wqithout reading the article can;t comment on whether it is 'cruel' or not.

Some people think I am 'mean' with Roxy. Some days she does not get meals in her bowl. All her food will be 'earned' during training. I have had people horrified that my 'poor dog' didn't have breakfast


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Ed Frawley also uses 'leash corrections':

"But when we reach the point that we are 110% sure the dog knows whats being asked and we know it has generalized the behavior we have then reached the point where we can introduce corrections for non-compliance.

At that point we take the dog to a location that has a level of distraction that we feel will cause the dog not to comply, or we go to a neutral location and we add distractions.

If the dog is asked to LOOK and it refuses we simply say NO and give a correction by *popping the leash.*

We are teaching the dog that if it refuses the command it going to be told NO and its going to get a *leash correction.* This process continues in the face of higher and higher levels of distraction."


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Sorry, I can't read all that as I'm too tired - will do tomorrow though
> 
> In some ways I can see the logic in that but wqithout reading the article can;t comment on whether it is 'cruel' or not.
> 
> Some people think I am 'mean' with Roxy. Some days she does not get meals in her bowl. All her food will be 'earned' during training. I have had people horrified that my 'poor dog' didn't have breakfast


I see nothing wrong with food being earned during training. I do the same thing.

But I simply cannot imagine bringing a new dog home, a dog that is possibly nervous, confused, unsure - and then totally isolating it from the family and deliberately refusing to offer any affection or attention.

I agree that a new dog will often need space - my dog did. But when he was ready to interact my goodness I was there and happy to make a fuss of him. To deliberately refuse affection? I don't call that 'training' - I call it cruelty.

Again though, that is just my own humble opinion.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

> originally posted by *Owned By A Yellow Lab*:
> 
> I have no issue with Michael Ellis at all.
> 
> ...


Ed Frawley & Michael Ellis are chalk & cheese - they're pretty much different species.

Ed is still a hidebound devotee of Koehler at heart; _*"U will obey me, or else... "*_
There's no room in his world for dogs to misunderstand a cue - or for handlers or trainers to
fail to teach what they THINK they're teaching; the dog is always at fault, the dog is to blame.

Ed *heard about* marker-training for decades; all he responded with was ignorant ridicule.
Not only did he fail to understand it, he had zero interest in comprehending any of it; in his eyes,
reward-based training was for a$$holes & ninnies, & "real men" trained "real dogs" with "real tools":
choke or infinite-slip collars, prong AKA pinch collars, & shock-collars. Leash-jerks were needed;
physical punishment was mandatory, "or the dog won't be reliable".

Then he met Ellis, saw the *results* that everyone had told him about for decades, & began a new
marketing campaign: Sell clicker-training as a way to TEACH cued behaviors.

However, he still hasn't changed his mind about physical punishment, he STILL thinks it's needed,
he just doesn't use it for "teaching" a green dog, anymore. *And Frawley still believes in,
"U will obey me - or else..." * There's no room in his program or his mind for dogs who
can't handle physical aversives, or who are shut-down by positive punishment, or who become
aggressive when harshly "corrected" [punished] for unwanted behaviors, on cue or freely offered; 
his response to that is still, *"String 'em up."*

All he's done is add some new public-relations embroidery to his same-old formula; it's lace trimming
on an Iron Maiden, or an embroidered toe-cozy on an iron-boot with a red-hot sole. it doesn't MEAN 
anything substantial has changed.

Ellis is good at teaching & installing behaviors; however, like Frawley, he's willing to use traditional
aversive tools once the dog or puppy has the basics. They've got the concept, now we can start
punishing...

Frawley IMO is only trying to increase his market-share. Ellis is sincere, but not what i'd call
a reward-based trainer, as he's perfectly willing to use applied aversives / negative reinforcement.


> continued - originally posted by *Owned By A Yellow Lab*:
> 
> Nor do I accept that the use of headcollars is a valid comparison.
> Headcollars if *fitted* properly are not aversive. Yes it's awful that some owners don't take the time to find the most comfy one
> but EVEN then headcollars [don't] repeatedly [choke] the dog & [prevent] ...breathing.


i agree with the entire statement, except that it's not the *fit* of a headcollar that's key;
it's the *habituation* process. If the dog can't shove their own face into it willingly & happily,
the habituation wasn't properly done.

A dog who is nicely habituated, if s/he had thumbs, would fasten the buckle themselves.
If they weren't, then they aren't happy wearing it, no matter HOW perfectly it fits. :huh:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> i agree with the entire statement, except that it's not the *fit* of a headcollar that's key;
> it's the *habituation* process. If the dog can't shove their own face into it willingly & happily,
> the habituation wasn't properly done.
> 
> ...


But ... if (as you state) it is all down to the habituation process how come Toby accepted the head collar simpley being out on him but Roxy, despite weeks of trying to desensitize her to it would not accept this & sort of shut down when wearing one :confused1:

Sorry, but I do think that some dogs no matter what will not like wearing head collars, I really don't know why I am constantly told these are not 'aversive' when the look on alot of dogs faces says otherwise


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Despite all the work I've done on trying to get Spen to accept a head collar having one on makes him miserable (same with a muzzle). I have spent months working with Spencer on it and still am working on him with the muzzle. No, it may not cut off his air supply but imo it would be far crueller to insist on using a head collar than it would to give him a couple of collar corrections. If you could ask them I think many dogs would say their head collars were a torture device to be honest.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Despite all the work I've done on trying to get Spen to accept a head collar having one on makes him miserable (same with a muzzle). I have spent months working with Spencer on it and still am working on him with the muzzle. No, it may not cut off his air supply but imo it would be far crueller to insist on using a head collar than it would to give him a couple of collar corrections. If you could ask them I think many dogs would say their head collars were a torture device to be honest.


The collar corrections and the air supply cut off were two different things. I agree that a leash correction is not the most terrible thing but I still maintain that, in another article, when Ed Frawley describes a technique whereby he stops the dog breathing, *that* cannot be compared to a headcollar.

I can only speak for my own dog, he seems happy enough wearing a Dogmatic headcollar.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sarah1983 said:


> Despite all the work I've done on trying to get Spen to accept a head collar having one on makes him miserable (same with a muzzle). I have spent months working with Spencer on it and still am working on him with the muzzle. No, it may not cut off his air supply but imo it would be far crueller to insist on using a head collar than it would to give him a couple of collar corrections. If you could ask them I think many dogs would say their head collars were a torture device to be honest.


I agree with you. Roxy (surprisingly) is ok with a muzzle but not a head collar. I think it is the pressure around her muzzle (when the lead is attched) that causes her discomfort despite me never pulling on the lead (I never needed to as she went in to such a submissive state when wearing one  )

In general her muzzle seems to be quite be quite sensitive, more so that Toby. I honestly belive that for some dogs, head collars are as aversive as choke chains are to others .... but so many people will disagree with this for some reason


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I agree with you. Roxy (surprisingly) is ok with a muzzle but not a head collar. I think it is the pressure around her muzzle (when the lead is attched) that causes her discomfort despite me never pulling on the lead (I never needed to as she went in to such a submissive state when wearing one  )
> 
> In general her muzzle seems to be quite be quite sensitive, more so that Toby. I honestly belive that for some dogs, head collars are as aversive as choke chains are to others .... but so many people will disagree with this for some reason


Yes, Spencer is better with the muzzle and better with the head collar until a leash is attached, then he really objects to it. He's not really happy in the muzzle though, just tolerates it which is better than nothing I guess. As long as he doesn't end up having to wear one for more than something like a vet check anyway.

OBAYL, your dog may well be happy enough wearing his head collar, so was Rupert, it didn't bother him at all. That doesn't change the fact that so many dogs are utterly miserable in them though. Yet despite that, despite the fact the dog needs to be taught to like them (if they can be!) they're marketed as a kind way to stop a dog pulling.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

If only life was so simple x equpment = good y equipment = bad.

A very simplistic view and one which demonstrates that the holder has not considered that all equipment has pros and cons, nothing in life is risk free.

And of course it is simple to demonise a "site" because one disagrees with one particular individuall's viewpoint than look at the many very interesting and educational articles on there.

Still everyone is entitled to a point of view however misguided or ill informed.

Headhalters are not necessarily the panacea that some people believe and in fact I recall *OBAYL* herself demonising the GENCON head halter before finding that in actual fact it was the only one that she could properly manager Dexter the Yellow Lab who lunges at everything in.

Now of course that GENCON is the best thing since sliced bread.

Not the message that was being proselytised many months ago. 

What do we learn from this volte face?

Perhaps that empirical knowledge trumps theoretical musings?

Or perhaps that end justify the means?

That is for the poster(s) to know and the reader(s) to discover.

Suzanne Clothier has a view on Head Halters for example

The Problem With Head Halters | Suzanne Clothier

There are others.

The more I read, the more courses I attend, the more people with whom I train,the more different types and range of dogs I encounter the more I discover that I have to learn and also how my outlook evolves to take into account many factors.

It may make people feel better to argue the pros and cons of specific equipment and specific individuals, but most, IME, do it from the perspective of no actual first hand knowledge.

I shop at various establishments, I do not boycott any of them because they sell something that I do not want, approve of or buy, I just buy what I want and leave the rest.

That is what I do when I read a book, attend a course, hire a trainer etc etc

Simples.


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## MerlinsMum (Aug 2, 2009)

smokeybear said:


> If only life was so simple x equpment = good y equipment = bad.
> --snip--
> It may make people feel better to argue the pros and cons of specific equipment and specific individuals, but most, IME, do it from the perspective of no actual first hand knowledge.


 Very true. 
I am against the use of prong and shock collars - but I have never used one, so I am guilty of the above.

However I have used quite few different items of equipment, so and advice from me on their use DOES come from experience. 
Your Mileage May Vary, as they say.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

smokeybear said:


> If only life was so simple x equpment = good y equipment = bad.
> 
> A very simplistic view and one which demonstrates that the holder has not considered that all equipment has pros and cons, nothing in life is risk free.
> 
> ...


Yep, I posted months ago and *acknowledged* that whereas I had previously criticised the Gencon, I had subsequently tried it and found it helpful. I openly ACKNOWLEDGED this change of view and anyone who wishes to can read that particular thread. I wasn't aware that revising one's opinion was against forum rules....?

The fact remains that ultimately, I returned to the Dogmatic as I still think it is kinder than the Gencon. Again, I posted about this. That doesn't alter the fact that for *some* folk, the Gencon seems to be the best headcollar.

And again, just to correct you, my dog does not _'lunge at everything'._ He lunges at cats, motorbikes, and horses. Hardly _'everything'._

Finally, I have not '_demonised' _the Leerburg site. I have simply expressed my own view. Last time I checked PF was still a democracy whereby one was allowed to do that.

You have in fact totally missed the point I was making earlier. I never mentioned equipment.* I was talking about the deliberate cutting off of a dog's air supply.*

And yes, I think that is wrong and I stand by opinion.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> I have no issue with Michael Ellis at all.
> 
> But when I read Ed Fawley cheerfully describing how he cut off a dog's air supply three times and after that the dog 'understood' what it should and shouldn't do - then yeah, I do take issue with that.
> 
> *Nor do I accept that the use of headcollars is a valid comparison.* Headcollars if fitted properly are not aversive. Yes it's awful that some owners don't take the time to find the most comfy one but EVEN then the headcollars are not repeatedly choking the dog and preventing them from breathing.


Youre moving the goal posts around on the discussion here. 
You said "They use shock collars and highly recommend them and I was comparing the use and recommendation of head halters to that. I had already addressed the hanging before I brought up head halters.

Even so, folks like Frawley would find me cruel because I would rather see a dog humanely euthanized if the only alternative left to him is repeatedly being made to pass out from oxygen deprivation in order to teach him not to bite. Yes, I would rather see the dog dead than repeatedly asphyxiated in the name of training. Not that I think the repeated asphyxia would actually work as far as rehab goes, but I just flat dont believe in keeping dogs that far gone alive.

I dont know if that makes me more or less humane, all I know is that none of us have all the answers and its best to keep an open mind. (Just not so open that everything falls out )


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Good heavens

_Nor do I accept that the use of headcollars is a valid comparison. Headcollars if fitted properly are not aversive. Yes it's awful that some owners don't take the time to find the most comfy one but EVEN then the headcollars are not repeatedly choking the dog and preventing them from breathing._

Revisionists are always interesting...........................................


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

ouesi said:


> *Youre moving the goal posts around on the discussion here.
> You said "They use shock collars and highly recommend them and I was comparing the use and recommendation of head halters to that. I had already addressed the hanging before I brought up head halters. *
> 
> Even so, folks like Frawley would find me cruel because I would rather see a dog humanely euthanized if the only alternative left to him is repeatedly being made to pass out from oxygen deprivation in order to teach him not to bite. Yes, I would rather see the dog dead than repeatedly asphyxiated in the name of training. Not that I think the repeated asphyxia would actually work as far as rehab goes, but I just flat dont believe in keeping dogs that far gone alive.
> ...


Fair point.

I wasn't deliberately moving the goalposts


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## theshoefairy (Nov 23, 2013)

Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> Ed Frawley also uses 'leash corrections':
> 
> "But when we reach the point that we are 110% sure the dog knows whats being asked and we know it has generalized the behavior we have then reached the point where we can introduce corrections for non-compliance.
> 
> ...


This in particular was in the video I was watching. This is the first clue I had that his methods weren't for me.

The funny thing is, he went on to say that telling a dog off for something when it doesn't know what it's done wrong is cruel. What a joke that is now considering some of his methods.

I would string him up if I could!


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## theshoefairy (Nov 23, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Despite all the work I've done on trying to get Spen to accept a head collar having one on makes him miserable (same with a muzzle). I have spent months working with Spencer on it and still am working on him with the muzzle. No, it may not cut off his air supply but imo it would be far crueller to insist on using a head collar than it would to give him a couple of collar corrections. If you could ask them I think many dogs would say their head collars were a torture device to be honest.


What I don't understand is why people go for these kinds of products, what's wrong with a normal flat collar and a lead or a harness? I didn't even know what head collars were until I googled it after reading this thread. Although they don't appear to be cruel, they just seem unnecessary and I can see why a dog wouldn't like to wear one.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2013)

theshoefairy said:


> What I don't understand is *why people go for these kinds of products,* what's wrong with a normal flat collar and a lead or a harness? I didn't even know what head collars were until I googled it after reading this thread. Although they don't appear to be cruel, they just seem unnecessary and I can see why a dog wouldn't like to wear one.


Out of desperation really.
Ever had a very large, strong dog who decides on the corner of a busy intersection to go completely insane because there is another dog across the street and youre standing there wondering if you can hold on to the whirling dervish at the end of your lead or if youre going to be drug in to 4 lanes of traffic or lose the dog and see him flattened by a vehicle or attacking a dog innocently walking down the street? 
There are plenty of very real issues like this that many owners struggle with and they get to the point where they will do ANYTHING to stop that feeling of dread of not having any control over a beloved dog who has temporarily lost his mind.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Out of desperation really.
> Ever had a very large, strong dog who decides on the corner of a busy intersection to go completely insane because there is another dog across the street and youre standing there wondering if you can hold on to the whirling dervish at the end of your lead or if youre going to be drug in to 4 lanes of traffic or lose the dog and see him flattened by a vehicle or attacking a dog innocently walking down the street?
> There are plenty of very real issues like this that many owners struggle with and they get to the point where they will do ANYTHING to stop that feeling of dread of not having any control over a beloved dog who has temporarily lost his mind.


Yup. It's easy to think you will never need such tools if you have been blessed with placid dogs, but sadly they don't all fit that mold. It is literally life or death in some instances.


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## theshoefairy (Nov 23, 2013)

God know's why, but that didn't cross my mind. Blonde moment lol


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

theshoefairy said:


> *What I don't understand is why people go for these kinds of products, what's wrong with a normal flat collar and a lead *or a harness? I didn't even know what head collars were until I googled it after reading this thread. Although they don't appear to be cruel, they just seem unnecessary and I can see why a dog wouldn't like to wear one.


A headcollar can help one remain in control of a strong, lunging dog so that one can continue the training rather than ending up on the floor.

A front attaching harness can work really well too and I use one of these in secure areas. But when we in the street, and there is traffic, I find a headcollar works the most effectively if for instance, a line of horses from the nearby riding school suddenly appears round the corner 

If a headcollar was 'unnecessary' I would not use one 

They don't work for all dogs but for some of us they are really helpful. Personally I think it's kinder than the many folk I see with strong dogs who are desperately pulling their dog along on a flat collar and lead.

Each to their own


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i agree with the entire statement, except that it's not the *fit* of a headcollar that's key;
> it's the *habituation* process. If the dog can't shove their own face into it willingly & happily,
> the habituation wasn't properly done.
> 
> ...





Cleo38 said:


> ... if (as you state) it is all down to the habituation process, [why did] Toby accept the headcollar simply
> being [put] on him, [while] Roxy, despite weeks of trying to desensitize her to it, would not accept [it]
> & [shuts] down when wearing one? :confused1:
> 
> ...


i'll address both Roxy & Spencer in one post, below. :yesnod:


Sarah1983 said:


> Despite all the work I've done... to get Spen to accept a headcollar, [wearing] one makes him
> miserable - same with a muzzle. I've spent months... on [the headcollar] & still am working on
> [desensitizing him to a] muzzle.


U are both talking of ONE dog, in both instances Ur own, & i have no idea how the introduction,
desensitizing, & habituation were done. I know how i do it; i know how my clients have done it - 
& *so far*, i've yet to have a dog come along who simply hated the headcollar - period.
I don't suggest them for every dog, but over the past 30-years, there have been several dozen dogs.
They all became very accustomed & were unfazed by them - this *includes the 12 children*, from 8-YO
to 12-YO, who took my 6-week long "summer session" dog-training weekly camp. *The first day,
each child & dog was issued a headcollar, fitted for their dog, & written instructions on how to 
habituate their dog - 7 days later, all returned with dogs already wearing their GLs happily, 
to begin the first proper class.*

once again i wish to emphasize that no dog ever wears one
- unsupervised
- whilst pawing at it
- for more than a few minutes each day, for the first several days.
AND
- we progress only at the *dog's* pace: we don't go from step-1 to step-2 until the dog
is quite happy at step-1, & similarly thru-out the process.


Sarah1983 said:


> [A headcollar] may not cut off his air-supply but IMO, it would be [more cruel] to insist on using
> a headcollar [on Spencer] than... to give him *a couple of collar-corrections. *
> 
> If you could ask them, I think many dogs would say their headcollars were a torture device,
> to be honest.


Please don't minimize leash-jerks, choke-chains / infinite-slip nylon collars, or prong collars.

It takes more than "a couple" of collar-corrections to have an effect - unless U are willing to make
each of those collar-corrections so severe, U dam*ed-near pop the dog's head off with each one.


Owned By A Yellow Lab said:


> The collar corrections & the air supply cut-off were two different things.
> 
> I agree that a leash correction is not the most terrible thing but I still maintain that, in another article,
> when Ed Frawley describes a technique whereby he stops the dog breathing, *that* cannot be compared
> ...


Agreed - "choking down" or "hanging" or "stringing-up" a dog is still a standby for old-fashioned
horny-handed traditional trainers, & it is often advised by them [as it was by Frawley, the first time i read
his article detailing the process, tho it may have been edited since] to *continue till the dog passes-out.*

Dogs have been documented having strokes, throwing blood-clots & having lung-emboli, heart-attacks, 
brain-damage due to lack of O2, etc - such damage can include deaf / blind / epilepsy / paralysis / 
permanent limp / toe-dragging, balance issues ['drunken gait'], & more.

Dogs have died after being choked-down [collar closed as they stand until they collapse unconscious]
or after being hung [suspended by the lead or collar, with either forefeet or all-4-feet off the ground,
till the dog passes-out].

Feel free to show me all the veterinary-confirmed incidents of dogs who died DUE TO the use 
of a headcollar.  Premier Pets has a standing offer for any owner whose dog has a serious injury, 
confirmed by a vet, DUE TO their Gentle-Leader headcollar. It's yet to be claimed.

BTW, for those who have horses, if foals got to vote on it, NO HORSE would ever wear a headcollar,
either - yet many horses, once accustomed, will trot right over to have it put on.


Cleo38 said:


> ...Roxy (surprisingly) is OK with a muzzle, but not a headcollar.
> I think it's *the pressure around her muzzle, when the lead is attached, that causes her discomfort* -
> despite me never pulling on the lead; I never needed to, as she went in to such a submissive state
> when wearing [a headcollar].
> ...


It's not usually "pressure Around" the muzzle, it's pressure On Top Of the muzzle, in front of the eyes.

This underlines a specific issue that most dog-owners don't even think of, & it's often not found in
the instructions for any headcollar: *Use a light leash!*

Even with a truly massive dog, when s/he wears a headcollar, U don't need a leash that's 1.5-inches wide 
& made of double-thick nylon webbing!  That's ridiculous overkill; i can use a 1/2-inch wide veg-tanned
6-ft long leather leash with an ordinary spring-clip on a 90# dog, with a headcollar.

*The weight* of the leash is transferred to the bridge of the dog's nose when U clip
the leash to the headcollar; therefore, for the dog's comfort, DON'T USE the same 6-ft long heavy-duty leash,
the one with the bull-snap & the hardware alone weighs a half-pound?!... if need be, GET A NEW LEASH.

It's to be noted that many dogs sail right thru the early habituation & don't even begin to fuss mildly
*until the moment the leash goes on for the first time*, which on average is Day-Four. Until then,
they're quite unconcerned - the WEIGHT of the doggone leash, not the headcollar alone, bugs them.

My 80# Akita wore a headcollar from about 5-MO, & even when she became a powerful adult, i never used 
a heavy leash; it was the same 3/4-inch wide, 6-ft long latigo leash i'd bought in 1985.

I later used a 1/2-inch wide veg-tanned 6-ft harness-leather leash with a brass spring-clip; 
light on her nose, light in my hands, very comfy for both of us. It had no stitching nor rivets - 
the leash-ends had been slit, & the wrist-loop and snap were "woven" on.

NOTE that this leash weighs about 5-ounces.








See the specs here - J and J Dog Supplies Harness Leather Leash
(1/2" x 6')
J & J dog-supplies have excellent products, i highly recommend them.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Regarding the head collar, I tried over several weeks not days. All my leads are reasonably light

I haven't used a head collar for over a year now yet Roxy will run away if she sees it, she hated it that much.

I can see they are useful tools for alot of dogs but I would not use one on Roxy unless I was in a situation where I had to. 

I really don't understand why some people refuse to believe that some dogs do not like head collars & find them aversive


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Tis the same with some horses too, contrary to popular belief not ALL horses tolerate head halters either and so other methods are used.

Sometimes this is due to incorrect fitting usually around the ears (where the head piece is too short the browband too small thus impacting on the ear nerves) but often around the nose.

the former is fixed (usually) by correct fitting if the horse is not too traumatised or by one ear loop a la western.

The latter can be ok when ridden if no noseband is used.

Like the Pareto Principle 80% of dogs will respond to 20% of the "usual" but, like people, the other 20% need a different approach.

Some of us have to handle dogs at each end of the bell curve, not just the "average"


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

theshoefairy said:


> What I don't understand is why people [use headcollars]?
> What's wrong with a normal flat collar... or a harness [& lead]?


If i have a client who
- is outweighed or outmuscled by their dog;
- has poor grip, or no upper-body strength;
- is disabled & needs mechanical advantages to control a dog;
- has a dog with a habit of pulling, predation, or aggro;
- has a bite-history with humans, or has killed nonhumans;

I'll suggest EITHER a front-clip harness, OR a headcollar, depending on specifics.

I also use a front-clip harness as the transition tool to control the dog, while s/he is habituated
to the headcollar.

Many service-dog organizations fit their pups with headcollars & use them for all leashed handling;
buckle-collars are for tags, headcollars are for guidance & control. Their disabled handlers often
don't have the hand or wrist strength to control a dog on any sort of neck-collar.


theshoefairy said:


> I didn't even know what headcollars were until I googled, after reading this thread.
> Although they don't appear to be cruel, they just seem unnecessary, & I can see why a dog
> wouldn't like to wear one.


that they're un-necessary for U doesn't mean no one else needs one. 

As for "not liking them", foals don't like headcollars; 
young puppies hate flat-collars - if U've never seen a young pup wear a collar for the very first time, 
they bolt, sit & claw at it, roll around... some whimper & lie down, refusing to stand up & walk or play 
with the others, who recover faster from the "shock".  I like the early-introduction that some 
bird-dog breeders do, they put cord-collars tied with square-knots & a short dangle on each pup's neck 
while they're still with their siblings at about 4-WO, & the other pups teach them to GIVE to pressure.

It's brilliant - by the time they're 8-WO, they are very responsive to pressure from
the leash, & rather than pull BACK from it, they've learnt to go along WITH it. Simple, humane,
& it saves a world of trouble.
.
.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

I used Chirag Patels method of introducing Spen to a muzzle and head collar, as I say, he tolerates it at best. He is not happy in it and it shows. Sure, he'll put up with the muzzle (and the head collar until a leash is attached) but that's not the same as being unfazed by it. I tried that, I tried Jean Donaldsons head collar method, I tried having it on him while doing fun stuff, I tried having a very light clip attached to the head collar, he is simply not having it.

I have been working on this for over 18 months with the muzzle. How long am I expected to try for before saying my dog is not happy with anything on his face? Why is it so hard for people to accept that there are dogs who do not like head collars?

It does not necessarily take more than a couple of properly timed collar corrections to have an effect on a dogs behaviour. Nor do they need to be hard enough to damn near take the dogs head off.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Re the headcollar, I tried over several weeks not days. All my leads are reasonably light
> 
> I haven't used a head collar for over a year now yet Roxy will run away if she sees it, she hated it that much.
> 
> ...


Am i making U use one on Roxy? :huh: No.

Do i have any idea how it was introduced? :huh: No.

Did i claim, *"She'll love it, if I introduce it"...?* :huh: No.

Ur dog hates it; fine - don't use it. Problem solved. 

However, i've never had a dog yet, who *"hated"* the headcollar - each dog took an average of 7-days 
from first introduction to the FIRST time the leash was clipped on; some took 5 days, some took 8.

The record for SLOWEST was an approx 3-YO intact-male Foxhound who came into the shelter
as a stray in autumn, one of the *hundreds* of hounds & mixes who are dumped every year
in the southeast-USA by deer-hunting jerks who use hounds to run the deer; it's legal, there. :incazzato:
Not abandonment! - *running deer with hounds* is legal; every fall, they cull their dogs by dumping.
Dogs who don't keep up, don't come back to the truck fast-enuf, who don't trail well or look sick,
who are losing weight & condition [& probly have heartworm], who eat too much to maintain wt,
who squabble with other dogs when they free-feed in a melee, whatever... are dumped.

He was adopted by a novice owner; he was over-60# & all bone where he wasn't rock-hard muscle,
he'd NEVER BEEN ON A LEASH & pulled like a harnessed elephant, he jumped-up on EveryOne,
& he *hurt U* when he did - bony foreface, rock-hard skull, pointy elbows & all!

He took about 14-days, from intro to wearing the headcollar happily WITH a leash - i don't recall
what day we first clipped the leash on, but at 2-weeks he was wearing it for walks & quite content.
No more bruises, thank Goddess.  He was sweet, but H***'s bells, no self-control.


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## Owned By A Yellow Lab (May 16, 2012)

I've acknowledged that some dogs will never be relaxed in a headcollar. I am not saying anyone here should use one. I was merely responding that *I* use one with *my* dog - in response to another poster who asked why anyone bothered with them.


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