# genetics??????



## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

Im in need of some help. No matter how many times I read up on what colours will produce what coloured kittens...


it just wont make any sense!!!!

Im starting to feel like a brainless idiot. Ok im certainly no genius but Im reasonably educated but arrrghhhh.

Ive read on here where its been really dumbed down but just how dumbed down do I need to go?

Im looking at a future mating of a lilac based caramel point girl and a blue point boy.

Would I end up with purely blues?

please take pity on the idiot and help me out


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## catcoonz (Aug 4, 2012)

Your not stupid, genetics do my head in aswell, i always ask spid she is great sorting out my colours.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

I think working with DM confuses things a bit, or any other colours that can't be tested for


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I'm not sure how it works with the dilutes like caramel but you also need to know if the blue point carries chocolate.


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

When it comes to caramel and smokes confuses me.So if anyone can simplify these would be super duper


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

You will get blue & blue-based caramel. If the boy carries chocolate then lilacs and lilac-based caramel. Am assuming the girl only has one DM gene. If she has two (homozygote) all kittens will be caramel.

DM is a dominant gene that produces caramel from dilutes or apricot from cream. It has no effect on black etc so can appear 'from nowhere'.

I have a blue-based caramel-point and he is a lovely sludgy brown, clearly not chocolate.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> I have a blue-based caramel-point and he is a lovely sludgy brown, clearly not chocolate.


Then those who don't think DM exists and say he'd be a badly rufoused blue


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> Then those who don't think DM exists and say he'd be a badly rufoused blue


He would have a remarkable amount of rufosing! Hopefully one day there will be a gene test for it - or all of us with caramel / apricot cats will have our tails between our legs...

Unfortunately I don't have a photo taken in daylight of him.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> When it comes to caramel and smokes confuses me.So if anyone can simplify these would be super duper


Smoke - a non-agouti (self) cat with silver. There must be some other genes controlling how far along the hair shaft the white goes - a smoke cat is bone white at the roots of it's coat, quite different to an unsound coat. Saw a smoke BSH at the last show I went to and you really had to look to see she was smoke, which is how it should be.

A smoke cat has to have a silver parent. Could be tabby, shaded, tipped or smoke but the silver has to come from one or other of the parents.

I'm not a fan of silver tabbys but I do like smoked. Saw a brown smoke Asian at the same show - same as a brown burmese, but with smoke.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ok, do you know if your girl has one or 2 caramel genes? Do you know if she carries chocolate?

If she has 2 genes and carries chocolate: blue based caramels carrying chocolate, and lilac based caramels

If she has 2 DM genes and no choc: blue based caramels carrying chocolate

If she has 1 DM gene and carries chocolate: blues and blue based caramels carrying chocolate, lilacs and lilac based caramels

If she has 1 DM gene and doesn't carry chocolate: blues and blue based caramels carrying chocolate.

Hope that helps!


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> He would have a remarkable amount of rufosing! Hopefully one day there will be a gene test for it - or all of us with caramel / apricot cats will have our tails between our legs...
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have a photo taken in daylight of him.


I hope when you're weather is better you can get some photos of Benny in daylight.

I really don't have an opinion either way, and know Oriental breeders on both sides of the fence.
Also saw a photo of a BSH today that's thought to be a blue based caramel

Had only heard and seen of it Siamese/Orientals before.

How do you find out if a cat has one or two DM genes if there's no test for it? Just through test matings?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

spotty cats said:


> <snip>
> Had only heard and seen of it Siamese/Orientals before.
> 
> How do you find out if a cat has one or two DM genes if there's no test for it? Just through test matings?


There are Caramel Asians and Tiffanies (slh Asian) as well. And with no gene test, it would have to be test matings. Hopefully a gene test will come along, though I feel it would be more useful for the black/chocolate/cinnamon/red cats that might have DM as you can't tell by looking at them.

John Harrison who is a well-known UK judge has written a good article about it in Orientals & Siamese:
Oriental Cat Breeder| Caramel and Apricot in the Oriental Shorthair| John Harrison

He writes:


> In Oriental Shorthairs the Caramel colour can be traced back to an accidental mating between MARISARNI DANDINO [24b] and MARISARNI RETARA [10], both cats having perfectly respectable pedigrees for their respective breeds. Indeed it is now very unlikely that any Orientals, excepting Foreign Whites, are not descendants of these two cats.


(10 = chincilla, 24b = chocolate-point - I have no idea if this was an 'oops' litter!)

Another interesting article by him:
http://www.oriental-cat-breeder.co.uk/the-oriental-minefield-part-2.php

I had a lilac-based caramel self Asian who was the most delightful cat and he looked quite different colours in different lights. I *do* have a photo of him taken in daylight and will post it when I'm on the desktop.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I have a blue-based caramel-point and he is a lovely sludgy brown, clearly not chocolate


'Clearly not chocolate' is a brilliantly concise description of caramel  Once you see one you'd know exactly what that meant.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> 'Clearly not chocolate' is a brilliantly concise description of caramel  Once you see one you'd know exactly what that meant.


Thanks, you are my new bestest friend! 

He looks blue-point in some lights and that lovely sludgy brown in others. It's also quite different to a lilac-based caramel. I've not seen fawn-based yet.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

The 'not chocolate' thing always shows in photos. Seems very strange I'm sure to anyone who hasn't seen the DM at work that a negative descriptor works so well but it does.


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

thanks for your help guys. I dont know if the boy carries chocolate and this would be his first mating so no previous on him.
As for the girl on her only other mating to a chocolate point she produced a chocolate boy and girl and a caramel girl.


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## Matti (Jan 28, 2013)

carly87 said:


> Ok, do you know if your girl has one or 2 caramel genes? Do you know if she carries chocolate?
> 
> If she has 2 genes and carries chocolate: blue based caramels carrying chocolate, and lilac based caramels
> 
> ...


I have no idea what any of this means as I am not a breeder (but am very interested in reading about it obviously) but I had to reply just to say this post made me really hungry- all this talk of caramel and chocolate :biggrin5:


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

The boy is lilac, Sharon! That's a dilute of chocolate, so it's pretty obvious he has it! 

As for her, if she's produced choc before, then she does indeed carry it.

Now a question for others. Is a chocolate based caramel possible?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Now a question for others. Is a chocolate based caramel possible?


Chocolate is a modified colour rather than a dilute. The dilute modifier only modifies dilutes so no, as far as I'm aware you can't get a choc based caramel.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

havoc said:


> Chocolate is a modified colour rather than a dilute. The dilute modifier only modifies dilutes so no, as far as I'm aware you can't get a choc based caramel.


Agree but this is why a chocolate ( or black or cinnamon) can produce a caramel with a blue/lilac/fawn - that's where the DM has come from.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> this is why a chocolate ( or black or cinnamon) can produce a caramel with a blue/lilac/fawn - _that's where the DM has come from_


Right, and for the benefit of anyone trying to follow this who has never looked at the DM before:-
the dilute modifier is a dominant gene. In basic genetics we're taught that dominant genes are always expressed and can't be carried but this one only affects dilute colours so can be carried by non dilutes. You can breed many generations without knowing it's there if you happen to stick to non dilute colours.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

Can you explain to me about silver please? Mai Tai has a chocolate silver Oriental as her Grand-sire and I still don't understand why silver Orientals put Siamese offspring onto the Reference register. Is the silver a modifier? What effect does it have on Siamese?


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

That one's going to need a Siamese breeder au fait with regpol


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

carly87 said:


> The boy is lilac, Sharon! That's a dilute of chocolate, so it's pretty obvious he has it!
> 
> As for her, if she's produced choc before, then she does indeed carry it.
> 
> Now a question for others. Is a chocolate based caramel possible?


Now I really am confused. Are you saying that the male kitten I bred can only be a lilac...

Oh dear why does this make my brain hurt!


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I've just found all this lovely on info on the Siamese Cat Breeder site - don't know if it's any help to you Sharon. It sort of answered my question 
Siamese Cat Genetics - Siamese Cats and Kittens


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## Meezey (Jan 29, 2013)

lymorelynn said:


> I've just found all this lovely on info on the Siamese Cat Breeder site - don't know if it's any help to you Sharon. It sort of answered my question
> Siamese Cat Genetics - Siamese Cats and Kittens


Ohhhhhhhhh not that really hurt my head  So never breeding lol


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> Ohhhhhhhhh not that really hurt my head So never breeding lol


It's actually much harder to take in from a written page than from practical experience - like many things. It becomes much easier to understand if you do breed


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

lymorelynn said:


> Can you explain to me about silver please? Mai Tai has a chocolate silver Oriental as her Grand-sire and I still don't understand why silver Orientals put Siamese offspring onto the Reference register. Is the silver a modifier? What effect does it have on Siamese?


The regpol doesn't explain why silver is forbidden in Siamese pedigees. The show world contains lots of strange things and this is one of them in my view.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> The regpol doesn't explain why silver is forbidden in Siamese pedigees


I had it in my mind that it's simply a case of the powers that be (BAC?) deciding they don't want it but it isn't my breed so didn't want to suggest so in complete ignorance. The way these thing usually work is that first we have complete denial of a gene existing in a breed followed by 'OK it's there but we don't want it' and then sometimes 'we didn't want it but we've got used to seeing it now and it's quite attractive'.

Much as I delight in breeders having access to all sorts of tests through Langfords, I do wonder if we're in danger of stopping all sorts of rather wonderful 'progression' in breeds. After all, it is going to be easy enough to rid a breed of silver once there's a test. Much of what we have and love thus far in many breeds probably wouldn't have been allowed if the testing had been available throughout the last century.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

We have silver Siamese and Orientals in both associations over here.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

We wouldn't need a gene test to get rid of silver as it's dominant - we can always see it.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

sharon_gurney said:


> Now I really am confused. Are you saying that the male kitten I bred can only be a lilac...
> <snip>


Remind me what colours the parents were.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Sharon, no! I'm saying that the stud is a lilac, so he definitely carries/has chocolate as lilac is a dilute of chocolate! If you breed with a lilac boy and a blue caramel carrying chocolate (she does, as you said she's produced chocolate kittens before), then this is what you will be expecting.
If she has only 1 DM gene, so, 1 caramel gene: blue, lilac, blue based caramel, lilac based caramel. All of your blues will be chocolate carriers, whether caramel or not.

Is she has 2 DM genes, so 2 caramel genes: blue based caramel, lilac based caramel. Again, your blues will be chocolate carriers.
Hope that clears things up a bit!

And Havoc, I feel like such a dolt! of course you couldn't have choc based caramel when we're talking about a dilute modifier! I don't know why I even asked!


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## sharon_gurney (Jan 27, 2010)

OrientalSlave said:


> Remind me what colours the parents were.


mum is a lilac based caramel and dad would be a blue point.

I want to nominate oriental slave and Carly as "BRAINS OF BRITIAN"
green blobbies coming your way


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> We wouldn't need a gene test to get rid of silver as it's dominant - we can always see it


Ah, now I was given to understand that it could express at different levels and wasn't always visible. I am prepared to be told this is the opinion of a silver hater with an irrational fear of the gene as it isn't something I have any experience of


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> And Havoc, I feel like such a dolt!


Don't. It's amazing how tied up in it all you can get once you start to overthink it


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

havoc said:


> Ah, now I was given to understand that it could express at different levels and wasn't always visible. I am prepared to be told this is the opinion of a silver hater with an irrational fear of the gene as it isn't something I have any experience of


This what I have always understood too  Eh by gum, it's complicated isn't it


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> This what I have always understood too Eh by gum, it's complicated isn't it


I don't know if it's true now though. The very mention of silver does seem to illicit complete panic in some so it may be propaganda.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

Blimey I go a way for one day and you have a whole genetics thread without me! *sulks*

You only need one silver hair to be silver - obviously that's not good silver but still silver so a silver gene test would be good. Coda was silver but didn't express it all over her body.


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## carly87 (Feb 11, 2011)

Spid, would you disown me if I admitted to feeling a very tiny amount of unholy devilry when I at last got to post a colour prediction before you?

And sharon, I'm assuming your girl is pointed too. Those colours were all points colours listed. If she's not pointed but carries CP, then the colours could show up as solids or pointed. If she is a point, then all the colours, but in the CP pattern.


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## spid (Nov 4, 2008)

carly87 said:


> Spid, would you disown me if I admitted to feeling a very tiny amount of unholy devilry when I at last got to post a colour prediction before you?


Oh go for it Carly, a little bit of devilry is good for the soul! I can't disown you ever.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> You only need one silver hair to be silver - obviously that's not good silver but still silver so a silver gene test would be good. Coda was silver but didn't express it all over her body.


So silver could go undetected without testing??


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

That's what some breeders seem to be scared of, but personally I'd be surprised.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> That's what some breeders seem to be scared of, but personally I'd be surprised.


As someone who breeds silvers I'd also be surprised, unless quality is the issue and they're very low grade and mistakenly registered as the wrong colour - though that doesn't seem to be an issue with silver Siamese/Ori's here


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> As someone who breeds silvers I'd also be surprised, unless quality is the issue and they're very low grade and mistakenly registered as the wrong colour - though that doesn't seem to be an issue with silver Siamese/Ori's here


Well where there's no objection to silver there's no motivation to register a cat cat wrongly is there.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

havoc said:


> Well where there's no objection to silver there's no motivation to register a cat cat wrongly is there.


I'm not talking about falsifying pedigrees, but low grade silvers being registered as non-silver in error, as someone said earlier it takes just one silver hair to be silver.

But the silver Siamese/Orientals I see there's no mistaking they are silvers.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I'm not talking about falsifying pedigrees, but low grade silvers being registered as non-silver in error


Of course you're not because you're in a country where they are completely accepted. I'm looking more at the arguments which may be forwarded for compulsory testing once a test is available.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

I can see why compulsory testing for PKD is a Good Thing, but for a colour? Being Silver or not Silver doesn't affect a cat's heath or longevity.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Photo of Benny which clearly shows he's sort of brown but clearly not chocolate or lilac. He's also dark for 11 months old!


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> I can see why compulsory testing for PKD is a Good Thing, but for a colour? Being Silver or not Silver doesn't affect a cat's heath or longevity.


Absolutely, couldn't agree more. Compulsory testing for the active register should be confined solely to matters of health and wellbeing. I have a feeling we're going to be revisiting this subject though.


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

Perhaps compulsory just for correctness of pedigrees?

Some of the silver Birmans can be hard to say if its silver or not.
I imagine some other breeds have the same troubles, silver dilutes seem less obvious as well


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

OrientalSlave said:


> Photo of Benny which clearly shows he's sort of brown but clearly not chocolate or lilac. He's also dark for 11 months old!


Thanks for the photo 

Was looking at some lilac and blue based caramel BSH and LaPerms yesterday which all had that browny colour to them which isn't black/brown or chocolate


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## we love bsh's (Mar 28, 2011)

OrientalSlave said:


> Photo of Benny which clearly shows he's sort of brown but clearly not chocolate or lilac. He's also dark for 11 months old!


You got a pic of the front?..those eyes look amazing.


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## sharonbee (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm also not too clever with the colours, I am a little puzzled with my two boys at the moment, I thought they were lilacs but they seem darker and more browny but not chocolate now.


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Lilac-based caramel? Did you breed them? Can we see their pedigree(s), please?


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

we love bsh's said:


> You got a pic of the front?..those eyes look amazing.


He's either camera shy or he tries to sniff it! But I will see what I can do.


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## lymorelynn (Oct 4, 2008)

I sometimes wonder if my Rosie is caramel rather than lilac  She doesn't look the same colour as some of the lilac kittens I have bred.

Rosie:


















A lilac boy of Mai Tai's. He was around 2 years old when the picture was taken, so about the same age as Rosie is now. His coat seems a lot lighter than hers


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## OrientalSlave (Jan 26, 2012)

Unless the photo is taken in good daylight (by a north-facing window is ideal, or outside in the shade) it's really hard to tell from photos as the camera does things to colours.


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## NorthernDarkness (Jan 9, 2013)

spotty cats said:


> Perhaps compulsory just for correctness of pedigrees?
> 
> Some of the silver Birmans can be hard to say if its silver or not.
> I imagine some other breeds have the same troubles, silver dilutes seem less obvious as well


The silver point BSH haters over here (Fifé doesn't recognize silver points) are justifying their opinion by this. It would be too difficult to identify the colours. I can't really say how true that is 'cause my only silver point is not from my own breeding, and she is very clearly black (seal).


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