# hunting (contains upsetting pictures)



## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)




----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

bordie said:


> View attachment 473879


Of?
With dogs?


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Bordie..........have you seen how well the Hen Harrier are doing since their care was taken away from the RSPB and organized through DEFRA and including landowners and game keepers?

Fledgling numbers have gone up 800%
https://www.moorlandassociation.org/2021/08/excellent-prospects-for-hen-harrier-breeding/


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

What do you hunt ?


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

:Jawdrop I really wish you hadn't posted that, just the thought of hunting upsets me.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> Of?
> With dogs?


You should always hunt with dogs. Those that don't are irresponsible


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Fox hunting is illegal yet they still manage to make excuses and kill foxes. . Since the DM brought the RSPCA to its knees no one will prosecute and they get away with it.


----------



## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

kimthecat said:


> Fox hunting is illegal yet they still manage to make excuses and kill foxes..


There will always be evil people who think it's ok to chase an animal to death and call it sport.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

If someone is hunting for food I think that's a much more ethical way than buying intensively reared meat. But hunting for sport is different. I don't see how anyone can take enjoyment from killing an animal purely for 'fun'.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rona said:


> You should always hunt with dogs. Those that don't are irresponsible


The Hunting Act 2004 *bans chasing wild mammals with* dogs in England and Wales

Using dogs to _*retrieve is*_ a different thing and not what I meant


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

mrs phas said:


> The Hunting Act 2004 *bans chasing wild mammals with* dogs in England and Wales
> 
> Using dogs to _*retrieve is*_ a different thing and not what I meant


What about flushing dogs?


----------



## teddylion (Oct 16, 2019)

Coming on a pet forum and boasting you love to kill animals? Bit odd.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Light the touch paper and stand back …..


----------



## bunnygeek (Jul 24, 2018)




----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

teddylion said:


> Coming on a pet forum and boasting you love to kill animals? Bit odd.





Lurcherlad said:


> Light the touch paper and stand back …..


That's our Bordie. He'll never change...............far too old 

The statement is true though. Hunting could be replaced with Farming. Not many will truly understand


----------



## Nonnie (Apr 15, 2009)

mrs phas said:


> The Hunting Act 2004 *bans chasing wild mammals with* dogs in England and Wales
> 
> Using dogs to _*retrieve is*_ a different thing and not what I meant


You might want to actually read that legislation.

Loads of exemptions. You can use dogs to hunt as long as you dont use more than two being one of the main ones.

You can use dogs for stalking and flushing, you can also use them underground.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/37/schedule/1


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> That's our Bordie. He'll never change...............far too old
> 
> The statement is true though. Hunting could be replaced with Farming. *Not many will truly understand*


Hmmm.

Hunters and farmers have their own agenda so I won't be looking to them for guidance tbh.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Hunters and farmers have their own agenda so I won't be looking to them for guidance tbh.


Pray tell what agenda you think they have?

Farmers are leading the way with climate change agenda


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

There was a saying re foxhunting... The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rona said:


> Pray tell what agenda you think they have?
> 
> Farmers are leading the way with climate change agenda


Honestly, I cba 

I think we stand firmly on opposite sides of the fence so we should agree to disagree


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

bordie said:


> View attachment 473879


What do you hunt ?


----------



## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> What do you hunt ?


to feed my dogs only take what i need


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

bordie said:


> to feed my dogs only take what i need


No, What do you hunt not why


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Lurcherlad said:


> Honestly, I cba
> 
> I think we stand firmly on opposite sides of the fence so we should agree to disagree


But I really don't know what you think about Farmers?

The ones around here are generally really conservation minded and have been for a very long time. I know there are a few awful whatsits, but then there is in all of society

I understand the anti hunt brigade but not anti farmer


----------



## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> No, What do you hunt not why


rabbits


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

rona said:


> But I really don't know what you think about Farmers?
> 
> The ones around here are generally really conservation minded and have been for a very long time. I know there are a few awful whatsits, but then there is in all of society
> 
> I understand the anti hunt brigade but not anti farmer


Neither do I. I live in amongst a farming community although many have had to give up as it's almost impossible to make enough money to live on. Now the fields stand idle or are mown flat to look like a lawn by townie incomers who have no idea. Or are covered in concrete and built on.
If you want to know about sustainable farming watch Harry's Farm on you tube. His farm is not far from me and he farms on similar soils. It's not easy growing food for the people of this country.


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

rona said:


> What about flushing dogs?


Said my piece 
Not getting further hooked


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

It's the intensive farming where the animals are treated like sh!t that I have a problem with. I take on hens from the egg laying industry and the condition they are in when you pick them up is shocking.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Beth78 said:


> It's the intensive farming where the animals are treated like sh!t that I have a problem with. I take on hens from the egg laying industry and the condition they are in when you pick them up is shocking.


I agree but it is wrong to condemn all farmers for the actions of some. I know you didnt


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Beth78 said:


> It's the intensive farming where the animals are treated like sh!t that I have a problem with. I take on hens from the egg laying industry and the condition they are in when you pick them up is shocking.


The trouble is, a lot of them are being forced into it or give up. They can't compete on price with lower standard eggs and chicken that are imported and the consumer won't pay more (generally).
Same as the pig industry, they claim to be free range but have you seen some of the conditions?
Something the Government should be helping the farmers with instead of importing from lower standard countries.

What choice have the farmers?
They can have open barns, but this creates other problems, especially when a creature becomes ill. They can put pigs outdoors, but have you seen the state of some of the paddocks? Poor pigs up to their bellies in freezing mud or baked because of no shade!
These things are supposed to be better................in a lot of instances, the farmer has little choice in what they do.
You just have to watch Jeremy's farm to discover that. Farming is being run by a load of suits in London


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

bordie said:


> to feed my dogs only take what i need


I don't hunt for my dogs but pick up road kill instead. plenty of deer & pheasants round here


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't hunt for my dogs but pick up road kill instead. plenty of deer & pheasants round here
> View attachment 473924


That picture should come with a warning, I don't wish to see dead animal thank you very much.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> That picture should come with a warning, I don't wish to see dead animal thank you very much.


Ok, each to their own. My dogs eat meat & this is meat for them. These animals probably had a great life, free range & died instantly. Much better IMO


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Cleo38 said:


> Ok, each to their own. My dogs eat meat & this is meat for them. These animals probably had a great life, free range & died instantly. Much better IMO


I'm not objecting to you feeding roadkill to your dogs I'm objecting to you posting a picture of a dead animal on a pet forum.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> I'm not objecting to you feeding roadkill to your dogs I'm objecting to you posting a picture of a dead animal on a pet forum.


Ok, again your opinion. Personally I think people should be a more aware that dead animals = meat (for some people & animals). I am vegan yet am not squeamish about this. It's the fact that some people don't like to admit this or try not to think of meat as being a dead animal that I feel is a massive problem with how we think about our food & the welfare of the animals involved


----------



## Leanne77 (Oct 18, 2011)

I dont necessarily disagree with hunting. I think doing it for food is acceptable and far more ethical than what is on offer in supermarkets. It's not my thing though, I have no desire to go out with a gun and kill something, but neither am I naive or squeamish about it.

Hunting for sport is a different matter. I cant stand the fact millions of non native pheasants are reared and released each year under the guise of shooting for food. Lets be realistic, it's for fun at the end of the day. One man going out with the landowners permission to shoot a rabbit and pheasant or two is one thing. Paying money to go out in a large group to shoot things that have been reared specifically for that purpose is sport. If that wasnt the case then why not keep pheasants like chickens?

I've been beating on shoots and i've been rabbiting, both with dogs and although I love to see the dogs doing what comes naturally, it's not the kind of thing that appeals to me.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Sorry . @Cleo38 but I agree with @Beth78 , we usually give warnings about photos like these on this forum . It is upsetting and if you are not expecting it , its a shock too. . Its not necessarily about squeamishness but the thought if how the animal suffered as it died.

Rabbits for meat are often kept in intensive farming systems in limited conditions so maybe the rabbits Bordie shot had a better life and a quick death.

Farm animals being sent to non stun slaughter 

ETA just noticed the title has been edited to give a warning . Thank you Mods


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> Sorry . @Cleo38 but I agree with @Beth78 , we usually give warnings about photos like these on this forum . It is upsetting and if you are not expecting it , its a shock too. . Its not necessarily about squeamishness but the thought if how the animal suffered as it died.
> 
> Rabbits for meat are often kept in intensive farming systems in limited conditions so maybe the rabbits Bordie shot had a better life and a quick death.
> 
> ...


I'll delete it if required. I suppose I just feel people ought to be more aware that meat = the death of an animal. A nicely packed item in Tesco's doesn't convey this (IMO) & people close their eyes to the fact.

I will say that the deer in the pics didn;t suffer, they died instantly ... I won't say how I know as it might be deemed upsetting but there was no suffering at all. These animals enjoyed a natural life then had a quick death that didn't involve being transported & waiting in turn to die (as in abattoirs). This is the most ethical meat you could get


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Cleo38 said:


> Personally I think people should be a more aware that dead animals = meat


This. 
If you're going to eat meat and/or feed your animals meat, this is the reality. An animal had to die for your animal to be fed.

I haven't eaten meat since the early 80's but over the years I have seriously toyed with the idea of taking up hunting in order to feed the dogs. I find it more humane than factory farmed meat for sure.

I know this is going to be hugely unpopular, but I feel strongly that if you're that squeamish about seeing dead animals or any part of the process that goes in to preparing your Sunday roast, you have no business eating said roast.

That said, I find recreational hunting hypocritical at best.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> This.
> If you're going to eat meat and/or feed your animals meat, this is the reality. An animal had to die for your animal to be fed.
> 
> I haven't eaten meat since the early 80's but over the years *I have seriously toyed with the idea of taking up hunting in order to feed the dogs. I find it more humane than factory farmed meat for sure. *
> ...


Same here. Roadkill is a good source round here tho as there is so much of it (there was an explosion in the deer population several years ago) although I do leave it for other animals in winter as they are struggling.

One week I had 3 deer ... ,my sister loves venison & was very envious of my dogs!


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Well the hunting is off the table for now with just a 10 pound dog to feed. Maybe fishing?  
I have a friend who raises meat rabbits, and ducks, might be more our size


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

I know where my meat comes from 
I've worked in a (very) small abbatoir, that took in animals reared on small holdings
I've picked up fresh roadkill when I had Thunder, so fresh it didn't even know it was dead yet
I've fed my dogs, until recently, raw, including horse
I eat rose veal,
And tomorrow
I will enjoy my roast lamb

It still doesn't mean that I want to come on a forum, I use for recreation and decompressing, one that is dedicated to animal welfare
And
see a picture of a dead deer and two dogs sniffing at it
I'm also aware that there are members under 18 on the forum, and those for whom the picture could well have been a trigger
whatever beliefs you have about knowing where your meat comes from
They don't need it foisted upon them, sometimes kindness comes (or should come) first

Thank you mods, now it can be avoided


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

LOL I guess I'm a terrible parent then. My kids have seen dead things from a very young age. Cats bring presents to the front porch, dogs drag bits of carcass out of the woods and parade them proudly about, they've seen a king snake eating a copperhead, a hawk swooping to catch a rabbit, our own dogs killing rabbits, hear the coyote cacophony after a kill... 

I wonder how it's okay to walk a child around a supermarket with dead animal flesh literally on display, but dead flesh in it's natural state is offensive and damaging? 

No wonder we have such a weird, unhealthy relationship with nature....


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> I know where my meat comes from
> I've worked in a (very) small abbatoir, that took in animals reared on small holdings
> I've picked up fresh roadkill when I had Thunder, so fresh it didn't even know it was dead yet
> I've fed my dogs, until recently, raw, including horse
> ...


I don't get it ... you eat meat yet find a pic of a dead deer upsetting? And is this forum dedicated to animal welfare? The deer was dead, what does it matter that my dogs were sniffing it?


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

This is genuine, I'm curious what the thought process is here - can anyone who found @Cleo38 photo upsetting explain how that is bothersome, but these images are okay? (In thumbnail for those who don't wish to click.)

Or do you find both equally upsetting?

I don't know why, but dead animals in nature don't offend me. Even roadkill, which is technically not that natural. And I enjoy watching the vultures clean up, I find vultures fascinating creatures.

I do get skeeved out by the cats playing with their kill and I've been known to call a dog over to finish the job. 
I also find the sound of bone crunching extremely unpleasant so I always leave the room for raw meals, I put the bowl down and skedaddle. But it doesn't stop me from feeding raw. Nor does handling raw meat bother me.

Strangely I do find meat and fish displays a weird thing. There is something not quite right there that doesn't sit right with me. I'd rather the old-fashioned butcher style where the whole carcass is hanging up, not that I like seeing a whole skinned carcass, but it's less weird than the display case meat.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't get it ... you eat meat yet find a pic of a dead deer upsetting? And is this forum dedicated to animal welfare? The deer was dead, what does it matter that my dogs were sniffing it?


You beat me to it.

Anyone who eats meat realises that involves the death of an animal, surely?

Happy to eat meat but does not want to see a picture of a dead animal?

Doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> I'll delete it if required. I suppose I just feel people ought to be more aware that meat = the death of an animal. A nicely packed item in Tesco's doesn't convey this (IMO) & people close their eyes to the fact.
> 
> I will say that the deer in the pics didn;t suffer, they died instantly ... I won't say how I know as it might be deemed upsetting but there was no suffering at all. These animals enjoyed a natural life then had a quick death that didn't involve being transported & waiting in turn to die (as in abattoirs). This is the most ethical meat you could get


Just to be pedantic , how do you know they were killed instantly, most of the dead animals I have seen have been by the roadside or on the pavement so must have crawled there. That includes badgers , hedgehogs foxes and cats .  
Yes agree about what is involved in the slaughter of animals.
I don't eat meat myself now and try to avoid dairy products . Seen horrible photos . I do admire people who are vegans though wonder how they deal with the issue of feeding pets meat. I never thought of feeding my dogs vegetarian food as I don't feel I should make that choice for them.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

Speaking as a meat eater, I'm aware that it's hypocritical. We like to try to forget the associations between the meat on our supermarket shelves and the animals we take our kids to see in farms - and I include myself in this. I think if there were less disconnect between the living animal and the food product, we as a society would consume a lot less meat and have a lot more respect for it. Years ago, in Africa, I watched a lamb being slaughtered and ate some of the meat, but I confess to feeling distinctly uncomfortable when faced with physical (rather than purely intellectual) evidence of the source of my dinner. I know it's hypocritical, but ultimately I'm a product of my culture, and that culture does its utmost to make sure there's as little as possible to remind us of the link between animal and meat.

I do try to make sure my kids know where their food comes from, but I haven't gone as far as taking them on a tour of the local abattoir!


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

kimthecat said:


> I do admire people who are vegans though wonder how they deal with the issue of feeding pets meat.


It's not an issue for me. 
I don't eat meat or dairy on purpose, it's the right choice for me, but I'm not entirely convinced that veganism is the most ethical choice.

I don't find the act of eating meat unethical. Animals have been eating other animals for as long as any of us have existed. 
Mass producing meat animals who have been bred and engineered to not even be normal animals and mass slaughtering them so that humans can eat meat in quantities no human was ever intended to eat is the stuff of nightmares on multiple levels. 
It's not eating meat that's problematic, it's everything that has gone in to the industry (a lot of it relatively recent) that is an abomination.

In my ideal world the meat my pets eat would all be from sources either they or I hunted or that I had raised so I can know for sure how the animal is raised and slaughtered.


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

If I remember correctly Beth78 is vegetarian or vegan so its not hypocritical of her to say she doesn't want to see photos of dead animals.

@O2.0 That makes sense . I had to put animals to sleep as part of my job but I couldn't hunt and kill an animal . I just couldn't do it.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> I do try to make sure my kids know where their food comes from, but I haven't gone as far as taking them on a tour of the local abattoir!


Most people wouldn't do that, but how do you and they react if you see a goose hung in a butchers window, or a pigs head or even whole fish at the fishmongers?
Roadkill is not quite the same, but at least the death was an accident (normally) and not killed purely to eat! Is roadkill ok to see when a Magpie or Crow is eating it?

That's more on par with what's shown here, not the actual death. Though that always happens to your meat too


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

3 years ago I put pictures and video on here of an old Crow pulling apart and eating a pigeon squab, because it was a Crow doing it and it was put in the wildlife section and despite over 400 views, there's not one complaint,
I had put a warning for the squeamish however!


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Firstly I am vegan so I don't walk through the meat Isle and yes I do find walking down a meat Isle unsettling, that is my emotional response.

I have seen a sheep killed on a farm which we were then served that evening, I could not eat it.

I feed my dog meat but could not pick up roadkill or kill an animal to feed her, so if that makes me a hypocrite then that's what I am.

I have been in a car that has hit a deer, it was not a quick death. I witnessed my sisters dog hit by a speeding van, it was not a quick death. Both times were very upsetting and it still makes me sad to think about.

I find the sight of dead animals upsetting, that is just my emotional response I can't help it.


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

@Beth78 I wasn't implying that you are a hypocrite, and I apologise if it came across that way at all. Rather I was calling myself a hypocrite! I very much admire anyone who lives up to their convictions by living a vegan lifestyle. Nor do I think it's hypocritical to feed your pets meat - after all it's no doubt what they would choose to eat (and they wouldn't be squeamish at eating animals that look like animals), so it's simply respecting their choice.



rona said:


> how do you and they react if you see a goose hung in a butchers window, or a pigs head or even whole fish at the fishmongers?


My kids were looking at a whole salmon yesterday at the supermarket fish counter, and they seemed to find it fascinating, though I'm not sure they made the connection between that and their fish fingers! I don't think fish elicit the same emotional response in many people though as you would tend to get to cute and fluffy farm animals or deer etc. Personally I have more ethical issues with eating fish than any other type of meat, due to the ecological damage caused by the fishing and fish farming industries. Likewise if it were possible to source meat and dairy that hadn't been raised on soy-based feed that's destroying the rainforest, and also to know that the animals had been raised in humane conditions, I'd feel much happier about my own meat and dairy consumption.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> Likewise if it were possible to source meat and dairy that hadn't been raised on soy-based feed that's destroying the rainforest, and also to know that the animals had been raised in humane conditions, I'd feel much happier about my own meat and dairy consumption.


This is relatively easy these days, you just have to look hard, be willing to pay more and put yourself out a bit.

Knepp do meat online. Can't get much more ethical than that unless it's game meat!
https://knepp.co.uk/wild-range-meat

Be warned. It tastes very different to mass produced meat.

https://www.pastureforlife.org/


----------



## NaomiM (Sep 22, 2012)

rona said:


> This is relatively easy these days, you just have to look hard, be willing to pay more and put yourself out a bit.
> 
> Knepp do meat online. Can't get much more ethical than that unless it's game meat!
> https://knepp.co.uk/wild-range-meat
> ...


Thanks for that, I will take a look. I do try to source more ethical meat where I can, but budget constraints do come into it too, even though I'm pretty good at making a little go a long way. (I'd be happy to only eat meat once a week or so, thus making more expensive options more viable, but hubby and kids wouldn't!)


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

NaomiM said:


> Likewise if it were possible to source meat and dairy that hadn't been raised on soy-based feed that's destroying the rainforest, and also to know that the animals had been raised in humane conditions, I'd feel much happier about my own meat and dairy consumption.


Milk is harder to source than meat. It may be grass fed but still they will probably remove calves to obtain the most milk .I'm not checking that for you, you'll have to investigate that yourself 
https://pipersfarm.com/collections/ethical-dairy/products/grass-fed-jersey-milk

https://www.theethicaldairy.co.uk/

https://www.thecalfatfootdairy.co.uk/

If you want a half way house then Waitrose are the most ethical Supermarket and they are improving animal welfare constantly https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/content/about-us/our-farming

I must say, that the majority of British Dairy is grass fed. They just make it into silage for the winter


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Beth78 said:


> Firstly I am vegan so I don't walk through the meat Isle and yes I do find walking down a meat Isle unsettling, that is my emotional response.
> 
> I have seen a sheep killed on a farm which we were then served that evening, I could not eat it.
> 
> ...


For me too, such images are triggers for past upsetting experiences which haunt me.

I had to have my beloved horse shot because she had colic and a twisted gut and the sound and sights really do haunt me 20 years on.

I try to avoid seeing images of dead animals (however they have died), so being smacked in the face by one on a pet forum is a shock and a trigger for me.

There used to be a member who was always putting up horrendous images (in the name of animal welfare admittedly, but still…) so I blocked her.

RPH on the other hand in her thread explained about the realities of commercial egg and dairy production without shocking images, but it was enough to turn me egg and dairy free (having been meat free for many years).

There's no need for such images on a pet forum imo.

There's a thread titled "what a sad way to die" with no indication of what it's about so I won't be opening that up, just in case.


----------



## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

bordie said:


> rabbits


My dad used to keep working ferrets and would regularly take me out from a young age with him and his mate who kept the dogs, they would use the ferrets to flush the rabbits out and the dogs would catch them.

Everyone got fed, us, dogs and ferrets.

I've never fed roadkill though, do you just go off the smell, because obviously you don't know how long it's been there for, so how do you know if it's not off?

I was on Dartmoor the other day, seen a sheep laying in the middle of the road, which looked like it has been ran over. I stopped to inspect it.. got out the car and approached it only for it to startle, bah at me and run off. It was taking a nap… scared the life out of me :Hilarious


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

kimthecat said:


> Just to be pedantic , how do you know they were killed instantly, most of the dead animals I have seen have been by the roadside or on the pavement so must have crawled there. That includes badgers , hedgehogs foxes and cats .
> Yes agree about what is involved in the slaughter of animals.
> I don't eat meat myself now and try to avoid dairy products . Seen horrible photos . I do admire people who are vegans though wonder how they deal with the issue of feeding pets meat. I never thought  of feeding my dogs vegetarian food as I don't feel I should make that choice for them.


Because in all case their hearts had exploded due to the impact (it's a national speed limit road but lots of idiots drive much faster) &you can usually tell with the positioning of the body & state of their feet.

Although I am vegan I would never feed my dogs/cats a vegetarian /vegan diet as I do not believe that is ethical. They are carnivores & I feel that should my beliefs come in to conflict then I should not own meat eating pets.

For me roadkill (fresh obviously) is the best source as it was free range & (usually) had a quick death so a lot less stress for the animal. Same with hunting, if the animal is killed cleanly then again it is much better as the whole process is quick & less stressful.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jason25 said:


> My dad used to keep working ferrets and would regularly take me out from a young age with him and his mate who kept the dogs, they would use the ferrets to flush the rabbits out and the dogs would catch them.
> 
> Everyone got fed, us, dogs and ferrets.
> 
> ...


I used to have 9 ferrets and go ferreting regularly. Mind,that's when rabbits where around in huge numbers and it was a service to the farmers. Dogs and ferrets survived on rabbit meat. I personally don't like the smell or taste of it. Don't like pheasant either, but love Venison and pigeon 

You can usually tell how fresh road kill is by the eyes. if it's been there a while, the eyes are either missing ( a delicacy for Corvids) or they are sunken and/or cloudy


----------



## Jason25 (May 8, 2018)

rona said:


> I used to have 9 ferrets and go ferreting regularly. Mind,that's when rabbits where around in huge numbers and it was a service to the farmers. Dogs and ferrets survived on rabbit meat. I personally don't like the smell or taste of it. Don't like pheasant either, but love Venison and pigeon
> 
> You can usually tell how fresh road kill is by the eyes. if it's been there a while, the eyes are either missing ( a delicacy for Corvids) or they are sunken and/or cloudy


9!!! They must of took some cleaning out :Hilarious my dad would clean them out daily, the run included. I think the patch of concrete the run was on was the cleanest bit in the garden :Hilarious
Before I knew where it came from, I would usually have it in a stew, which my dad used to refer to the meat as "wild chicken" :Hilarious I only have it in a stew these days, tried it with a roast dinner before but wasn't as nice lol.

Thanks for the road kill tips there is plenty about at the minute!


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I don't get it ... you eat meat yet find a pic of a dead deer upsetting? And is this forum dedicated to animal welfare? The deer was dead, what does it matter that my dogs were sniffing it?


I really don't care if I see photographs of dead animals or not 
What I DO care about is not being given the choice 
Neither you nor I know what anyone was dealing with, when they came across this picture. WITHOUT WARNING!
THAT is the point you are so obtusely ignoring, in your determination to prove your right, and, anyone who objects is wrong 
Before the warning (thanks again mods) anyone reading the thread had NO choice


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> I really don't care if I see photographs of dead animals or not
> What I DO care about is not being given the choice
> Neither you nor I know what anyone was dealing with, when they came across this picture. WITHOUT WARNING!
> THAT is the point you are so obtusely ignoring, in your determination to prove your right, and, anyone who objects is wrong
> Before the warning (thanks again mods) anyone reading the thread had NO choice


It was a thread titled "Hunting", & although the OP didn't add a pic I thought that the title would mean that those who might get upset by dead animals would ignore it. I am not determined to prove I am right at all as personally I don't care if you agree with me or not. I was simply putting my view across as to why I was confused that meat eaters get upset about dead animals when those they probably eat have a worse life than the deer my dogs had


----------



## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Cleo38 said:


> I was confused that meat eater get upset about dead animals when those they probably eat have a worse life than the deer my dogs had


 Because the choice not to view it had been taken away,
Up until then, I had been following the thread because I was interested in people's views and reasons, should I stay away from threads that interest me, just in case?
I'm no snowflake, nor am I a so called Karen but
I do like to have a free choice of what performances/pictures I invite into my brain, and, that choice was denied

As this is now moot and going in circles I'm choosing not to engage any further


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

mrs phas said:


> Because the choice not to view it had been taken away,
> Up until then, I had been following the thread because I was interested in people's views and reasons, *should I stay away from threads that interest me, just in case*?
> I'm no snowflake, nor am I a so called Karen but
> I do like to have a free choice of what performances/pictures I invite into my brain, and, that choice was denied
> ...


Maybe if you are going to get offended or upset the yes. If there are threads about animal abuse or dogs being bred or sold irresponsibly then I don't read them as I find them upsetting. I honestly fail to understand why anyone would purposefully start to read a thread about hunting which by definition would be about dead animals 

My pic was not meant to offend or upset at all, I simply posted it in a thread that was in someway relevant. I would not have posted it in a thread that wasn't dealing with the subject. You said you eat lamb, maybe take time to realise that they would have been a young, healthy animal whose body would have also been complete with limbs, head, fur, etc not something just neatly packaged up in plastic.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> If there are threads about animal abuse or dogs being bred or sold irresponsibly then I don't read them as I find them upsetting.


Odd things aren't we, us human beings?

I also get far more upset about suffering than death. Be that human or animal.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jason25 said:


> 9!!! They must of took some cleaning out :Hilarious my dad would clean them out daily, the run included. I think the patch of concrete the run was on was the cleanest bit in the garden :Hilarious
> Before I knew where it came from, I would usually have it in a stew, which my dad used to refer to the meat as "wild chicken" :Hilarious I only have it in a stew these days, tried it with a roast dinner before but wasn't as nice lol.
> 
> Thanks for the road kill tips there is plenty about at the minute!


We had a shed at the back of the garage and they had a two tier cage that measured about 6' x 4' with ladders and climbing frames etc. They were also allowed out to run around the shed nearly every day, to play in wellingtons and woodpile.
Can you imagine the pandemonium of nine very excited ferrets?  Great fun!

We tried a few times to give them a outside run, but they were always escaping and we'd have to go to all the neighbours to retrieve them. Some of the neighbours weren't keen 
Luckily they were all well trained and when they saw you they wanted picking up  The ferrets not the neighbours )


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

Well the thread has a warning on it now thanks to a moderator, that's all I/people were asking for. End of.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

................................


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> But hunting for sport is different.


I think in South Africa they also have ''canned hunting'' where the animals are conveniently kept in an escape-proof enclosure which is obviously more like target practice than hunting.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

So what do you do if you're driving down the road and there's a dead animal by the side of the road?


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Calvine said:


> I think in South Africa they also have ''canned hunting'' where the animals are conveniently kept in an escape-proof enclosure which is obviously more like target practice than hunting.


Pheasant shooting is half way there, though the birds are free for many months before shooting starts .

Grouse are the most natural of organized shooting as they are truly wild


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

O2.0 said:


> So what do you do if you're driving down the road and there's a dead animal by the side of the road?


I don't drive.


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Beth78 said:


> Well the thread has a warning on it now thanks to a moderator, that's all I/people were asking for. End of.


I don't get why you keep coming back to a thread that was so upsetting for you? 



Calvine said:


> I think in South Africa they also have ''canned hunting'' where the animals are conveniently kept in an escape-proof enclosure which is obviously more like target practice than hunting.


I've heard. That's terrible. All that trophy hunting is sickening, I just don't understand the sort of person who would get any enjoyment out of it. Disgusting, vile people


----------



## Beth78 (Jul 4, 2019)

It was an interesting thread before people started going round in circles, your picture is miles back and I've been following what people think about ferrets and hunting.

Maybe we can get back to that.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

bordie said:


> View attachment 473879


 OMG, that is just too funny...
*serious voice* 'its who I am'
and who is that?? someone who doesnt know where the supermarket is?? LOL:Hilarious

Majority of hunters are just giant knobs IMO. No excuse for killing living things unnecessarily.... But I dont disagree with hunting for necessary reasons like population control as animals would suffer far more if they fell prey to disease or starvation caused by overpopulation (but then I think it should be people employed especially for that job and who are excellent shots).
Im a vegan to the point where even my dogs are mostly vegan (only animal product they eat are their joint supplements) but Im also a realist and growing up lived in a house where hunting with guns and ferrets was how we fed ourselves so Im not squeemish at all).
Just not a big fan of pointless cruelty to defenceless creatures and I cant see any reason to kill things when alternatives are easily available.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Beth78 said:


> I don't drive.


Do you not ride in cars at all then?

I'm trying to imagine what kind of a lifestyle protects one from ever seeing a dead animal.

We live rurally. Most walks I see some sort of evidence of a death. Most morning drives there is at least a squirrel dead on the road, all quickly cleaned up by vultures. There is no way I can avoid seeing dead animals in every day life.


----------



## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

Seems to me there is some confusion here. Death is a "thing", it's unavoidable & I don't think anyone is denying that....

I drive for a living & see more than my fair share of roadkill, I don't want to see it, I'd much prefer not too but there is nothing I can do about it.

What I can do something about is choose whether I want to see videos/foto's of dead animals on the internet & I choose not too! I will avidly avoid anything that shows dead/dying animals (or people), not because I'm a "snowflake" but it's something I don't want. A warning about the content is appreciated, I can then decide whether I want to view or not.

When it comes to hunting for "sport"...good lord! Is it sport to pay thousands to shoot an Elephant/Lion (name your animal) from 300 yds away, (in perfect safety) when the animal itself doesn't even know there's a threat? Grouse shooting, the same! My thinking is, if you want to hunt for "sport" get a knife (but preferably your bare hands), some Nike running shoes & go after that Lion/Elephant/Grouse...see how you get on!

I'll qualify the above... I owned a shotgun for over 20 years & went shooting mostly every weekend & can proudly say I never shot a living animal, clays only!


----------



## bordie (Jan 9, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> OMG, that is just too funny...
> *serious voice* 'its who I am'
> and who is that?? someone who doesnt know where the supermarket is?? LOL:Hilarious
> 
> ...


i think u are not a full shilling


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Blackadder said:


> I'll qualify the above... I owned a shotgun for over 20 years & went shooting mostly every weekend & can proudly say I never shot a living animal, clays only!


I was in the shooting/farming world for 40 years and never killed anything that wasn't injured or sick. I was "involved" in the death of many creatures though. Then, death doesn't bother me, I was there to try and see that the life they lead was the best possible. Wasn't going to stop it happening, but could try and make it less stressful for the creature involved 
Just couldn't see what pleasure anyone got out of killing healthy creatures ever..................


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

bordie said:


> i think u are not a full shilling


That's unfair. They don't understand, why should you think you understand them?

You can be one way and still except that others are different


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> Do you not ride in cars at all then?
> 
> I'm trying to imagine what kind of a lifestyle protects one from ever seeing a dead animal.


I havent been in a car (or any kind of wheeled transport) at all this year....just use my feet! If you live in a built up area you really dont see alot of 'nature' going on, maybe a dead pigeon or rat sometimes.



bordie said:


> i think u are not a full shilling


yup, those crazy vegans who would rather eat a can of chickpeas then kill an animal! :Wacky how mad are we for thinking that as people can survive perfectly fine without taking a life then maybe they should?:Wideyed
We should all be locked away for our own good shouldnt we!??:Smug


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> yup, those crazy vegans who would rather eat a can of chickpeas then kill an animal! :Wacky how mad are we for thinking that as people can survive perfectly fine without taking a life then maybe they should?:Wideyed
> We should all be locked away for our own good shouldnt we!??:Smug


It's not about the killing, it's the way of life. That's what many don't understand.

I miss it dreadfully


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> If you live in a built up area you really dont see alot of 'nature' going on,


I think that's a big difference too.

Earlier we were talking about being removed from the process of meat = dead animal. And I imagine living in a built up area really helps maintain that distance and a sort of cognitive dissonance about where our food comes from and how.

I was young when I decided not to eat meat. From a very young age I had been exposed to animals being killed, dressed, and prepared for eating and I knew exactly what went in putting the meat on my plate. It was that full understanding that made it perfectly clear to me that I didn't want to eat meat.

I think if more people were more connected to this process, we would be a lot more careful about eating meat. If everyone who eats meat had to participate some way in the killing, processing, and preparing, I think we would have a lot more vegetarians and vegans. 
It's protecting people from the realities of meat = death that allows otherwise animal-loving people to chomp down on a big Mac with no compunctions.


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> So what do you do if you're driving down the road and there's a dead animal by the side of the road?


Personally, I wince and wish I hadn't seen it


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> It's not about the killing, it's the way of life. That's what many don't understand.
> 
> I miss it dreadfully


I admit I never really understood the appeal but my father and brother were big fans so they still go shooting now....they just go to a club and shoot clay pigeons instead. (I know, I know....all those poor clay pigeons needlessly slaughtered....).:Hilarious



O2.0 said:


> Earlier we were talking about being removed from the process of meat = dead animal. And I imagine living in a built up area really helps maintain that distance and a sort of cognitive dissonance about where our food comes from and how.


yup, that cognitive dissonance is such a big stumbling block. Its amazing how many people just dont connect that burger with a cow!


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I think that's a big difference too.
> 
> Earlier we were talking about being removed from the process of meat = dead animal. And I imagine living in a built up area really helps maintain that distance and a sort of cognitive dissonance about where our food comes from and how.
> 
> ...


I agree, I think it's the disconnection we have from animals & our environment that has caused so many problems. I can't remember if I've posted this before but my sister & her husband regularly go to a local restaurant that has a farm on site. The idea being that customers can see the animals, learn about them (there is lots of info available) then they are slaughtered (again on site so no transportation) then cooked & served. I think this is a wonderful idea but when i was telling one of my (meat eating) friends about it she thought it was horrific. I honestly couldn't understand, the animals had a much better life & death so surely that can only be a good thing


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

Lurcherlad said:


> Personally, I wince and wish I hadn't seen it


Out of curiosity, how often does the average British person see road kill?

I can't drive to work or the local market without seeing at least one dead thing in the road.

It just never would have occurred to me that roadkill - particularly roadkill being made good use of would be offensive to anyone. 
We talk about raw feeding, and whole prey feeding all the time, and many of us feed raw, not commercial raw but cuts of meat from the butcher, and/or whole prey. Do those threads bother you? Just curious, no judgement


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I admit I never really understood the appeal but my father and brother were big fans so they still go shooting now....they just go to a club and shoot clay pigeons instead. (I know, I know....all those poor clay pigeons needlessly slaughtered....).:Hilarious
> !


I've never shot a gun in my life but still miss the life. It's not about the killing


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> Out of curiosity, how often does the average British person see road kill?


Depends on the seasons really. Badger deaths are seasonal, the year old boy bagders are sent packing at some point by the Brocks and you can see 3-4 a day on a short trip. Pheasants in the silly season (mating time) and near a shoot, you could see quite a few. Foxes probably once a week. Rabbits not so much now because their numbers are much lower than they were.
In an urban environment the most usual road kill is a hedgehog, and I probably see a dozen a year

Oh.......forgot deer, around here 3 a week


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> I think this is a wonderful idea but when i was telling one of my (meat eating) friends about it she thought it was horrific. I honestly couldn't understand, the animals had a much better life & death so surely that can only be a good thing


That is a good idea in that you really cant deny where your food comes from. I think its interesting too that often vegans tend to be more coldblooded about slaughter then meat eaters! I remember offending a meat eater once coz I didnt see the difference between eating a cow or eating a dog. They were horrified at the thought of eating Fido but its ok to eat the cow?



rona said:


> I've never shot a gun in my life but still miss the life. It's not about the killing


Just curious...but what do you miss then? Did you used to go coursing/ferreting? trapping, fishing, etc?? No offense but I dont see what you can miss about the hunting life if it isnt the hunting.
(personally I dont miss rabbit guts in the kitchen sink or getting a faceful of pheasant hanging in the garage when I went to get my bike as a kid!LOL)


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

O2.0 said:


> Out of curiosity, how often does the average British person see road kill?
> 
> I can't drive to work or the local market without seeing at least one dead thing in the road.
> 
> ...


I see quite a lot foxes, squirrels, hedgehogs and deer. It always makes me sad I wish I had the skills and courage to do what @Cleo38 does the boys would love it.

I'm not massively upset but photos but can understand why some especially those who are strict vegan like @Beth78 would not want to see the photos. A warning is always nice.

I am veggie 99% of the time occasionally I fall of the wagon and have a bacon sarnie but do get it from the local farm shop. I love the taste of meat but just feel to guilty as I know what the animals go through.

Hunting for food I get no issue, but for fun yuck.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

O2.0 said:


> Out of curiosity, how often does the average British person see road kill?
> 
> I can't drive to work or the local market without seeing at least one dead thing in the road.
> 
> ...


A lot. Not that I travel much or the roads are heavily used, but it's a high wildlife area particularly deer.
I've taken feathers particularly pheasant when I was tying flies years ago, but don't particularly want to pick up road kill. A friend who lives in a cottage surrounded by fields does pick up road kill and puts it out for the buzzards and kites.
I'm from an era when the butchers had carcasses and dressed pheasants and hare hung up outside the shop. I've always known where my meat has come from and so have my children. I dislike pheasant shoots as I can't quite see the point of raising lazy fat birds to take pot shots at, not so against grouse shoots as they are a wild bird and difficult to hit. There's not been much in the way of grouse shoots this year due to poor weather during the nesting season. The only reason we have had Heather moorlands is due to them being maintained by grouse shoots. Stop them and that beautiful heather moorland vanishes.
I'm not a big meat eater mainly due to not liking the taste, can't see me going veggie or vegan as I'm far too fond of chicken, bacon and fish. However we thought we would try a plant burger just to see what they taste like and we both like them, in fact I don't normally eat beef burgers as I don't like the taste whereas I do like the plant version. The only issue I have with plant burgers is the amount of additives. A freshly made beef burger from organic minced beef bought from the butchers is additive free


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Just curious...but what do you miss then? Did you used to go coursing/ferreting? trapping, fishing, etc?? No offense but I dont see what you can miss about the hunting life if it isnt the hunting.
> (personally I dont miss rabbit guts in the kitchen sink or getting a faceful of pheasant hanging in the garage when I went to get my bike as a kid!LOL)


The way of life. Being out there in the natural world, being part of it and the people.......oh I miss the lovely sensible people that don't judge, don't gossip, don't flap and don't care about how they look.

I just haven't fitted in to any other group of people. I've tried with the conservation types, the butterfly types and the just neighbours types but they all seem so ruddy bitchy and judgemental or they are practicing one upmanship.

I miss the banter


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> oh I miss the lovely sensible people that don't judge, don't gossip, don't flap and don't care about how they look.


I thought those were called dog walkers!LOL

I do know what you mean about nature though. I used to live on the edge of Dartmoor and it was easy to walk up onto the moors, into woodlands or by a river and you did meet some nice people hiking. Now I live in a town I barely see anything (honestly I get excited if a sparrow ventures into my garden!).


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> I thought those were called dog walkers!LOL
> 
> I do know what you mean about nature though. I used to live on the edge of Dartmoor and it was easy to walk up onto the moors, into woodlands or by a river and you did meet some nice people hiking. Now I live in a town I barely see anything (honestly I get excited if a sparrow ventures into my garden!).


Nope, I'm still out there but it's not the same as being part of it. I've helped at Knepp and filled in counting on a butterfly transect when the usual guy went away. I've really tried to fit and feel part of it but nothing compares to the farming/ country sports life and people.
I'm more a farmer than into country sports. I see the huge merit in farming, the country sports are more varied in the good they do. I do believe in preserving grouse and grouse moors though.
Pheasant shooting should be phased out as far as I'm concerned. It's dying a natural death anyway, so many shoots around here have folded. Maybe they could try and look after the grey partridge like they do grouse!!
Deer stalking is a must and I see no problem with drag hunting at all, though why anyone would want to go fox hunting with hounds I'll never know. Foxes do have to be controlled in some way though. All the evidence in preserving ground nesting birds prove that


----------



## PawsOnMe (Nov 1, 2012)

I was another one who grew up going rabbiting/ferreting with my dad and Taz (our terrier), from a young age I was very desensitized to seeing dead animals and I had to learn to prepare the animals that was hunted for the table. I find it weird that I now have a fear of touching dead animals. 
I don't really have a problem with hunting for the pot, would prefer that than buying meat from the supermarket. I don't agree with hunting for sport or for trophy, I find the idea that there are people who find it fun to kill animals quite disturbing.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

PawsOnMe said:


> I find it weird that I now have a fear of touching dead animals.


Not me. I still have a pet snake from before I went vegan so my freezer is full of vegan burgers, veggie sausages and dead mice!LOL:Hilarious


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

catz4m8z said:


> Not me. I still have a pet snake from before I went vegan so my freezer is full of vegan burgers, veggie sausages and dead mice!LOL:Hilarious


I feel that we are both enigmas* *


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

So those of you who find it upsetting to see a dead animal on the side of the road must be very appreciative of @Cleo38 and people like that who remove the animal from the road so you don't have to see it


----------



## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

For crying out loud ., Give it a rest every one. No wonder people stop posting here.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> For crying out loud ., Give it a rest every one. No wonder people stop posting here.


I thought this was going relatively ok apart from the odd snipe (on both sides)


----------



## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

O2.0 said:


> Out of curiosity, how often does the average British person see road kill?
> 
> I can't drive to work or the local market without seeing at least one dead thing in the road.
> 
> ...


Sadly, on British roads there are a lot of animals killed …I'm semi rural and see deer, foxes badgers, rabbits, squirrels, pheasants and other game birds, pigeons, occasionally cats in the built up areas…. I really try not to look, though feel compelled to after picking up an injured cat off the road one time, which recovered.

OH did an emergency stop just minutes ago to avoid hitting a squirrel (luckily, nothing behind us ).

I don't find the feeding of roadkill to dogs offensive … not sure anyone does on this thread tbh. The issue was, I believe, the pic of the dead deer with no warning.

A simple acknowledgment that a warning was probably sensible would have avoided the ensuing argument, too I think.

Talking about raw feeding dogs isn't an issue either, for me. If posters put up pictures of animals being butchered, then I wouldn't want to see them.

I'm always ready to look away when watching tv (I was too slow one time …. That turned me veggie). I never watch wildlife programmes cos something always gets killed … even though "it's nature".

I sign animal welfare petitions through squinting eyes incase there's a graphic image.

I buy and cook meat for my OH and DS but I'd prefer not to tbh.

I recently saw a picture of a well known and popular tv personality posing smiling next to a deer he had just shot for fun …. He is now off my "watch list" 

I think most people do understand where the meat on their plate comes from …. They just choose to push it out of their mind. No judgement there …. I do it with fish.


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

HUGS to Lurcherlad. I stopped eating lamb after raising twin pet lambs. And it just kind of went on from there. Not total and the cats need raw food which is always chicken. Never lamb or beef. I prefer my grazing animals grazing. 

Deeply thankful to be where there is almost no traffic. And no TV so I choose what comes in. See news online

Hunting to survive is one thing; for fun is another entirely.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

O2.0 said:


> *Out of curiosity, how often does the average British person see road kill? *
> 
> I can't drive to work or the local market without seeing at least one dead thing in the road.
> 
> ...


Every day pretty much, although it astounds me how people can hit animals on a perfectly straight stretch of road that is limited to 30mph, especially poor hedgehogs, who aren't exactly small & don't generally move as fast as many other species.

One disturbing thing I have noticed in recent years round here is increasing numbers of people accelerating at, or in some cases, actually swerving towards animals (usually pigeons, but sometimes cats, blackbirds, corvids etc) that are on the road.


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

That is dreadful simplysardonic. The one time, many years ago out here, that I hit anything was rounding a blind bend on a narrow road to find a whole family of young rabbits. I could not avoid them all even braking fast. Broke my heart. The thought of doing that deliberately...


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

Isolette said:


> That is dreadful simplysardonic. The one time, many years ago out here, that I hit anything was rounding a blind bend on a narrow road to find a whole family of young rabbits. I could not avoid them all even braking fast. Broke my heart. The thought of doing that deliberately...


Sometimes it's unavoidable sadly.

I hit a hare in my Mini back when I hadn't long passed my test, no time to even do an emergency stop, I went back in case I'd just injured him but he was killed outright, I was heartbroken.

Although a couple of years later I was driving along in the same car, which at the time didn't have a grille after a cyclist ran into me when I was waiting to pull out at a junction, when a flock of yellowhammers flew in front of me.

I thought I'd hit one of them but somehow the little bird had got through the heating system & appeared in a puff of feathers at my feet!

He then proceeded to flap around my sleeping baby's head in panic until I pulled over, opened the door & he flew off, apparently unscathed.


----------



## £54etgfb6 (Dec 25, 2020)

This thread is very interesting! I don't really eat meat because of the texture and animal welfare issues but I think *responsible* hunting for food is okay. I admire that it gives hunters the opportunity to use the whole animal- cuts of meat not found in supermarkets, skin, bone, etc. Personally I think if you take the life of an animal you should use as much as possible from it so that it's death was not a waste of a life. I do know that in abattoirs parts of animals are often used for other purposes such as animal feed but I admire the intimacy of hunting. In my head it seems like it is more one on one with the animal which can give the opportunity to view the animal as a living thing rather than just an object for food. Hope that makes sense. Never hunted in my life but my father has as a child so that's the extent of my experience into that world.


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Many of us, myself very much included. could not kill an animal. In the past I met folk who said that if they did not kill the critters they were raising for food then they should not eat them. Taking DIY a little too far.... I riposted that taking that line they should perform their own surgery... I hate that critters are killed. And eat as little as possible. I was happiest int he years when I had my own hens, a goat etc. Not able for that life any more and totally limited in the source of my food now as remote and housebound. 
And no, seeing the critter you are going to eat? What a betrayal of their trust and life. Terrible idea. Look them in the eyes then....yukk.. All very much individual decisions. We need so little if any meat. Cats are obligate carnivores. They get chicken. Anonymous chicken. Compromise with reality. NB when I hatched chickens a farmer neighbour would deal with the inevitable cockerels for me and I fed that meat to the cats. I had watched them hatch.... Helped them grow. Bad enough that they had to go, But that is me; very old now and life has a deeper and more fragile meaning. Precious time.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

bmr10 said:


> I don't really eat meat because of the texture and animal welfare issues but I think *responsible* hunting for food is okay.


I agree with this. But to me that refers to tribes who rely on animals as their main food source. I mean I wouldnt expect a maasai tribe to give up cattle herding when its pretty much all they eat.
However I find that argument hard to take when its from people who have a supermarket on every corner!



Isolette said:


> We need so little if any meat. Cats are obligate carnivores. They get chicken. Anonymous chicken. Compromise with reality.


We really dont need meat at all, or any animal products. 
I would never have a cat again unless they perfected some sort of vegan diet for them and I dont think the current foods are up to a decent standard. However I do find it interesting that the thing cats need most from meat (taurine) is usually cooked out of pet foods and added back later! weird.... (still hoping for frankenmeat to be more widely available for pet food).
Luckily I dont have the ethical dilemma with the dogs, they just eat the vegan food in front of them quite happily!


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

catz4m8z said:


> I agree with this. But to me that refers to tribes who rely on animals as their main food source. I mean I wouldnt expect a maasai tribe to give up cattle herding when its pretty much all they eat.
> However I find that argument hard to take when its from people who have a supermarket on every corner!
> 
> We really dont need meat at all, or any animal products.
> ...


I use pet food, in a supporting role. Mine thrive on raw chicken. And my own dietary needs mean a little meat due to medical issues in increasing old age. So I simply accept their needs and mine and fret not. Else it can all become an obsession... . as I think you are well aware....lol... In reality if we researched all food we would die of starvation. Unethical practices etc. ….and my cutting out what is needed is not going to stop anything. Except my own healthy life. And that of the rescued cats entrusted to me. Casualties of the cruelty of mankind and totally entitled to a healthy well fed life. 
One of the worst aspects of strong beliefs is carping at those who share not those beliefs as if they are lesser beings. lol...


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

bmr10 said:


> I admire the intimacy of hunting. In my head it seems like it is more one on one with the animal which can give the opportunity to view the animal as a living thing rather than just an object for food


You grow a huge respect for your quarry if you are a decent human being, almost fondness and you admire the ones that get away.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> You grow a huge respect for your quarry if you are a decent human being, almost fondness and you admire the ones that get away.


Yes, I think people don't understand that many old-school, responsible, subsistence hunters end up being extremely knowledgeable about their quarry. They know the herd's movements, they know the individuals, they develop a relationship with the animals. 
I've lost a lot of respect for animal rights activists who act like they care yet know absolutely nothing about the animal they're supposedly protecting. Like that my dogs did not have to kill anything to come home with an antler shed


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

rona said:


> You grow a huge respect for your quarry if you are a decent human being, almost fondness and you admire the ones that get away.


What utter ……..


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Isolette said:


> What utter ……..


no..but its fine see, you respect them, admire them and become fond of them then....KILL THEM!! KILL THEM DED!!:Woot

I feel like Im treating the dogs all wrong by this philosophy. I really should of slit their throats, roasted them and popped them in a sandwich years ago!!LOL:Hilarious


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

catz4m8z said:


> no..but its fine see, you respect them, admire them and become fond of them then....KILL THEM!! KILL THEM DED!!:Woot
> 
> I feel like Im treating the dogs all wrong by this philosophy. I really should of slit their throats, roasted them and popped them in a sandwich years ago!!LOL:Hilarious


lol.... Wonderful post. And as for my cats... Seriously how can anyone kill some critter they have looked in the eye. It is a gross betrayal of trust. Years ago I raised twin orphan lambs. Their trust was absolute. I could never eat lamb after that.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

kimthecat said:


> No wonder people stop posting here.


Tell me about it! A first-time poster must wonder where on earth they've ended up sometimes.


----------



## SusieRainbow (Jan 21, 2013)

Calvine said:


> Tell me about it! A first-time poster must wonder where on earth they've ended up sometimes.


And this is why I feel General Chat should be closed until full forum membershp, or even senior membership is reached. The mpresson given to new members and lurkers concerns me.


----------



## edinoodle (Oct 18, 2019)

General chat is still somewhere I'm scared to post  

I have been vegetarian since I was 11, and come from a very meat-heavy family so it was a big deal at the time - which is very funny to look back on! When I got my puppy I had to think a lot about meat because I didn't want to support the mass market at the expense of any animal however I don't think it's fair to keep a dog on a vegetarian or vegan diet. What surprised me the most is how cheap meat can be, and I honestly think that's part of the problem. A packet of 10 chicken wings can be bought for less than £2 at Aldi! I've made the choice to feed a mixture of kibble and raw food and try my best to buy direct from farm shops and ensure the animals had the best life possible. I don't think this is ideal, but I feel like it's the best I can do. I couldn't pick up road kill, but have no issue with those that do!

I think a difference should be made between ethical meat eating and ethical hunting and non-ethical. For instance, hunting to reduce herd numbers which would otherwise result in the whole herd suffering through winters etc is more ethical, and if it also supports local communities then I can see the pros. What should matter most is the quality of any animals life


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> I agree with this. But to me that refers to tribes who rely on animals as their main food source. I mean I wouldnt expect a maasai tribe to give up cattle herding when its pretty much all they eat.
> *However I find that argument hard to take when its from people who have a supermarket on every corner*!
> 
> We really dont need meat at all, or any animal products.
> ...


I would argue that an animal living wild & free, that is dispatched with a clean shot, has still had a better life than any animal that meets their end in a slaughterhouse, no matter how free range & cared for they were at the farm.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Isolette said:


> lol.... Wonderful post. And as for my cats... Seriously how can anyone kill some critter they have looked in the eye. It is a gross betrayal of trust. Years ago I raised twin orphan lambs. Their trust was absolute. I could never eat lamb after that.


Because we - unlike most previous generations - have the luxury of NOT doing that thanks to being so far removed from the sources of our food.

My Mum knows how to pluck, skin and draw, as plenty of people used to raise fowl and pigeons, and catch rabbits for the pot. Some locals used to keep pigs, too, in a sty at the back of the house, raised on scraps and slops, and once a year the whole street would get the slaughtermen in and that would be a large part of your winter meat sorted. They used to say the only part of a pig you couldn't use was the squeal. Your local butcher would have whole and half animals hanging up, rather that neat little plastic wrapped packages.

As to hunters, if we're talking those who hunt for the pot (not pleasure, trophy or fun), then rona is correct - you have to have a respect for your prey and know them well, or you won't get anywhere near them. True, we don't technically NEED to hunt these days in this country, but many would argue that a hunted animal is a more ethical choice than a supermarket bought piece of meat that was intensively reared and then slaughtered at an industrial abbatoir. One of my local butchers (and I'm blessed with two very good ones!) has locally culled venison and rabbit when they are in season, they'd go to waste otherwise.

And, as a side note, I suspect those of us with beloved pets end up having many of them PTS for various reasons rather than letting them suffer - and I'm assuming we've all looked them in the eyes and a great deal more...


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Jesthar said:


> My Mum knows how to pluck, skin and draw,


So do I, and skin a rabbit, gut a fish. Never done a deer

I wonder what people do if their dog brings an injured animal or myxy rabbit to them!


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

simplysardonic said:


> I would argue that an animal living wild & free, that is dispatched with a clean shot, has still had a better life than any animal that meets their end in a slaughterhouse, no matter how free range & cared for they were at the farm.


meh....I still choose to believe that a chickpea or soya bean has alot less to lose then a bunny rabbit or bambi!
I dont get how people can believe that killing an animal is better then harvesting a seed or bean. Seeds and beans dont feel pain or fear after all.
Although fair disclosure, I was as bad as anybody else for refusing to see the connection until a few years ago and then its like a switch flicked on in my brain and now I cant see it any other way!:Shy


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

If you are a meat eater, as I am, then try to source sustainably raised grass fed meat from a good butcher if you can.
We have a nearby village with a butcher, but my fave place is a farm shop near where we go in Suffolk that produces much of the meat in the farm in their butchery area, it’s fantastic quality and much more tasty.


----------



## simplysardonic (Sep 1, 2009)

catz4m8z said:


> *meh....I still choose to believe that a chickpea or soya bean has alot less to lose then a bunny rabbit or bambi!*
> I dont get how people can believe that killing an animal is better then harvesting a seed or bean. Seeds and beans dont feel pain or fear after all.
> Although fair disclosure, I was as bad as anybody else for refusing to see the connection until a few years ago and then its like a switch flicked on in my brain and now I cant see it any other way!:Shy


I agree with you personally, I just think hunting for food is more humane than a slaughterhouse of any kind.


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Jesthar said:


> Because we - unlike most previous generations - have the luxury of NOT doing that thanks to being so far removed from the sources of our food.
> 
> My Mum knows how to pluck, skin and draw, as plenty of people used to raise fowl and pigeons, and catch rabbits for the pot. Some locals used to keep pigs, too, in a sty at the back of the house, raised on scraps and slops, and once a year the whole street would get the slaughtermen in and that would be a large part of your winter meat sorted. They used to say the only part of a pig you couldn't use was the squeal. Your local butcher would have whole and half animals hanging up, rather that neat little plastic wrapped packages.
> 
> ...


Went crosseyed at the sight of this post so have not perused it. Caught the last bit..

And no I have never had a pet put to sleep ..and that analogy is insensitive and inaccurate in the extreme , and invalidates any ideas you might have.


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

catz4m8z said:


> meh....I still choose to believe that a chickpea or soya bean has alot less to lose then a bunny rabbit or bambi!
> I dont get how people can believe that killing an animal is better then harvesting a seed or bean. Seeds and beans dont feel pain or fear after all.
> Although fair disclosure, I was as bad as anybody else for refusing to see the connection until a few years ago and then its like a switch flicked on in my brain and now I cant see it any other way!:Shy


Agree totally. There is no painless or comfortable way to meat. It always involves death which of course very critter sees coming and fears. I rejoice that now I can stop to chat with my neighbours cattle, stroke their velvety noses and assure them they are safe with me . Like you and many I grew up brainwashed. So they glorify it and romanticise it which is a falsehood. Just for food. When we can eat and be well without any killing as real civilisations. And as some say if you cannot kill then you should not eat.


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Isolette said:


> Went crosseyed at the sight of this post so have not perused it. Caught the last bit..
> 
> And no I have never had a pet put to sleep ..and that analogy is insensitive in the extreme, and invalidates any ideas you might have.


It's not an analogy, it's an observation. You asked how anyone could kill a creature they have looked in the eye, and you didn't put any qualifiers or exclusions on that, so PTS fulfils the criteria as stated.

Nor was any of my post 'ideas I might have' - they are a simple recounting of a common way of life that is only a generation or two removed from today. I have no rose tinted view of it, but neither do I have a problem with it. It's just what life was like.

Similarly, I have no fluffy views of nature. For example, I have birdfeeders aplenty in my garden, and bushes that bear berries and seeds, but that does come with a side order of predators that seek to take the smaller birds. I've got photos somewhere of a male sparrowhawk eating a collared dove right under one of my windows - I basically sat watching him have his breakfast as I had mine. Magnificent creature  Wish digital cameras had been better at the time, the photos really don't do him justice.


----------



## Isolette (Jul 5, 2021)

Jesthar said:


> It's not an analogy, it's an observation. You asked how anyone could kill a creature they have looked in the eye, and you didn't put any qualifiers or exclusions on that, so PTS fulfils the criteria as stated.
> 
> That pretext really invalidates your post. You do know why.
> 
> Just going off and may be away some while as very unwell. be blessed


----------



## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I have had to kill several of my chickens over the years doe to illnesses or injuries they have had. It's not easy, It doesn't get easier either & I hate doing it but .... the other option is to separate them from their flock, put them in a pet carrier, drive 15mins to the vets then have them PTS by someone they don't know. IMO it is kinder for them if I do it, so much less stress & it's over with quickly. 

I have also had to kill several rabbits who have had myxy & been in such a dreadful state & many rats who my horrible cats have tortured but not killed. Killing an animal even when you know you are doing it for their best interests is still very difficult,


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Jesthar said:


> You asked how anyone could kill a creature they have looked in the eye, and you didn't put any qualifiers or exclusions on that, so PTS fulfils the criteria as stated.
> 
> I've got photos somewhere of a male sparrowhawk eating a collared dove right under one of my windows - I basically sat watching him have his breakfast as I had mine. Magnificent creature  Wish digital cameras had been better at the time, the photos really don't do him justice.


yup, I tend to say 'killing with no good reason'. Ive yet to hear any reasons involved in killing animals for sport or food to be what I would call good enough for ending a creatures life.

Also the kind of 'shooting' animals you are talking about with the sparrowhawk Ive got no problem with! I dont see why big game hunters cant just go off and do this instead!


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Isolette said:


> What utter ……..


Just because you don't understand, doesn't make it not so


----------



## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Isolette said:


> That pretext really invalidates your post. You do know why.


Not really, although that may be the autism and accompanying hyper-logic talking. I don't, however, read minds 

If you'd have said "how can anyone kill some critter they have looked in the eye *except for welfare reasons*" or something similar then you would be correct - my response would have taken you out of context and therefore been a pretext. And that would have been my bad.

You didn't, so no pretext. Strange thing is, if you'd have said "Ooops, forgot to clarify that scenario" then that would have got you a 'No worries' from me (given that I HAVE been in the position of having a pet PTS).

Anyway, hope you feel better soon.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> no..but its fine see, you respect them, admire them and become fond of them then....KILL THEM!! KILL THEM DED!!:Woot


If you spend time with native peoples who have never seen a supermarket in their lives, or like my mother growing up in the 30's and 40's raising their own food and hunting what they needed during the winter, you would understand that some hunters do indeed have deep appreciation for their quarry - more in fact than many AR activists I've seen who have no clue about the animal they purport to care so much about.



Jesthar said:


> And, as a side note, I suspect those of us with beloved pets end up having many of them PTS for various reasons rather than letting them suffer - and I'm assuming we've all looked them in the eyes and a great deal more...





Isolette said:


> And no I have never had a pet put to sleep ..and that analogy is insensitive and inaccurate in the extreme , and invalidates any ideas you might have.


Not at all. Rather I find your dismissal of @Jesthar post more obnoxious than anything yet on this thread. 
Because you see, I have had a beloved pet put to sleep, many times, and recently. You clearly have no understanding of the courage it takes to look your dog in the eye and reassure him, and be there for him while you're dying inside yourself, and put the dog's needs ahead of your own.

There are far worse fates for an animal than an humane death, anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't understand animals.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> If you spend time with native peoples who have never seen a supermarket in their lives, or like my mother growing up in the 30's and 40's raising their own food and hunting what they needed during the winter, you would understand that some hunters do indeed have deep appreciation for their quarry - more in fact than many AR activists I've seen who have no clue about the animal they purport to care so much about.
> 
> Not at all. Rather I find your dismissal of @Jesthar post more obnoxious than anything yet on this thread.
> Because you see, I have had a beloved pet put to sleep, many times, and recently. You clearly have no understanding of the courage it takes to look your dog in the eye and reassure him, and be there for him while you're dying inside yourself, and put the dog's needs ahead of your own.
> ...


OMG...........we agree totally. Never been known before 

Best and most accurate post in all respects that I've ever seen you make


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

rona said:


> OMG...........we agree totally. Never been known before
> 
> Best and most accurate post in all respects that I've ever seen you make


We tend to agree on the stuff that really counts 

@Isolette if you have never had an animal PTS, what happens to your cats when they get old and unable to carry on? Do you just let nature take its course??


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> There are far worse fates for an animal than an humane death, anyone who doesn't understand that doesn't understand animals.


I would disagree that there could ever be a humane death when the end result is going to be a fur coat or a burger....no matter how much you might feel you respect and love the animals. The fact would still remain that the animal is only dead because someone wanted it that way.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> I would disagree that there could ever be a humane death when the end result is going to be a fur coat or a burger....no matter how much you might feel you respect and love the animals. The fact would still remain that the animal is only dead because someone wanted it that way.


I can tell you haven't had the same life experiences as me and others on here, so that's going to limit your understanding.
Separate how the animal dies from what the animal will be used for. 
Even better, look at how the animal lives their life before they die.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> Separate how the animal dies from what the animal will be used for.


Unfortunately I dont have the luxury of compartmentalising my morals coz...vegan! (which means to exclude , as far as is practical and possible, all forms of cruelty and exploitation of animals).
I did grow up in a hunting family and we weren't well off so often the only meat/fish you got was what you caught yourself, it seemed necessary at the time. However now I have more knowledge and also can afford to buy beans, rice, etc from a supermarket so taking a life isnt necessary.


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> all forms of cruelty


some would consider Not putting an animal out of their misery cruel….

And veganism is a first world luxury in many ways


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

All the hunters I know do so because they like guns and a moving, living, unpredictable target is preferred to anything else. None of them hunt just to gain food it is all about the enjoyment of hunting.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

O2.0 said:


> I can tell you haven't had the same life experiences as me and others on here, so that's going to limit your understanding.
> Separate how the animal dies from what the animal will be used for.
> Even better, look at how the animal lives their life before they die.


I don't think this is relevant to catz4m8z point and respectfully I think you have misunderstood the reasoning


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

3dogs2cats said:


> All the hunters I know do so because they like guns and a moving, living, unpredictable target is preferred to anything else. None of them hunt just to gain food it is all about the enjoyment of hunting.


Hunting isn't just about guns and death!


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

O2.0 said:


> some would consider Not putting an animal out of their misery cruel….
> 
> And veganism is a first world luxury in many ways


The trick is to not cause the animal the misery in the first place!

Also many third world predominantly vegan/vegetarian countries would disagree.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

rona said:


> Hunting isn't just about guns and death!


Yes I am aware of that however the people I know who refer to themselves as hunters use guns and the primary reason they hunt is due to them enjoying shooting living targets, none of them hunt primarily to provide food.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Isolette said:


> And no I have never had a pet put to sleep


Then you've been extremely fortunate.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> Unfortunately I dont have the luxury of compartmentalising my morals coz...vegan! (which means to exclude , as far as is practical and possible, all forms of cruelty and exploitation of animals).
> I did grow up in a hunting family and we weren't well off so often the only meat/fish you got was what you caught yourself, it seemed necessary at the time. However now I have more knowledge and also can afford to buy beans, rice, etc from a supermarket so taking a life isnt necessary.


To be fair, you did mention on here not long ago that, occasionally, you do have brief lapses and eat crisps.

Crisps are fried in animal fat.

Does that not count?


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafa said:


> Crisps are fried in animal fat.


 Most crisps contain vegetable oil not animal fat...unless you mean pork scratchings!?:Hilarious


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Crisps are soaked in tallow fat.


----------



## Boxer123 (Jul 29, 2017)

There are loads of vegan crisps on the market it says on the packet. Not sure why @catz4m8z is getting such a hard time for being vegan and not agreeing with eating meat and hunting it's free choice surely. This thread has taken an odd turn.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

I certainly don't have any issue with catz4m8z being vegan at all.

I believe everyone should have the choice to eat exactly the way they please.

What I don't like is when those who are vegan suggest that others who are not are somehow doing something wrong.


----------



## 3dogs2cats (Aug 15, 2012)

Boxer123 said:


> There are loads of vegan crisps on the market it says on the packet. Not sure why @catz4m8z is getting such a hard time for being vegan and not agreeing with eating meat and hunting it's free choice surely. This thread has taken an odd turn.


 Indeed there are lists of crisps that are vegan, unless for some bizarre reason they are lying or the many vegan websites are getting their information wrong then there are plenty of crisps a vegan available to vegans. Agree this thread is very odd!


----------



## O2.0 (May 23, 2018)

catz4m8z said:


> Also many third world predominantly vegan/vegetarian countries would disagree.


I've lived in 2 developing nations. I'm well aware of how people eat in developing nations. Are you? 
IME, the way most people eat vegan it is indeed a luxury. A luxury I'm grateful to have, but definitely a first world luxury.

When you're looking for food wherever you can get it, you don't read labels and check for whey or gelatin. And you don't turn your nose up to chicken added to your beans and rice.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

3dogs2cats said:


> the primary reason they hunt is due to them enjoying shooting living targets, none of them hunt primarily to provide food.


Prime examples of this being many members of the royal family: they are not killing to put food on the table - they thoroughly enjoy it, and the Queen herself took part when she was young. I'm not sure what happens to what they kill, and they may well say it goes to feed the needy - maybe it does - but that is not their reason for doing it. They do it because they enjoy killing.


----------



## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

O2.0 said:


> I've lived in 2 developing nations. I'm well aware of how people eat in developing nations. Are you?
> IME, the way most people eat vegan it is indeed a luxury. A luxury I'm grateful to have, but definitely a first world luxury.
> 
> When you're looking for food wherever you can get it, you don't read labels and check for whey or gelatin. And you don't turn your nose up to chicken added to your beans and rice.


I've lived overseas twice and once was in a developing country. I was vegetarian before I went but made the decision to eat what was available. It was extremely rural so 20 miles to the nearest tarmac road and nearly 40 to the nearest town.

Part of the development included teaching farming skills and I knew exactly where my food came from. If you had chicken then it was because someone knocked on your door with a live one and then came back with it later. It was such a luxury that you could afford one very rarely. Buying one though made a huge difference to the locals though.

The community ate together once a month and it was probably the only time that some would have eaten beef. It makes you realise that even drinking water from a tap is a luxury. I must admit that I didn't go back to being a vegetarian afterwards though.


----------



## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

I guess if you are hungry enough you will eat anything.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

Rafa said:


> What I don't like is when those who are vegan suggest that others who are not are somehow doing something wrong.


Sorry, its kinda unavoidable.:Shy As you don't differentiate between animal species and their worth then people might as well say they are hunting puppies and roasting kittens to the average vegan!
I mean you really don't have to feel defensive about it if you are happy with your choices, its just a different point of view after all. Im not telling people they MUST be vegan....just telling people I don't understand why they aren't yet!!



Jobeth said:


> I've lived overseas twice and once was in a developing country. I was vegetarian before I went but made the decision to eat what was available. It was extremely rural so 20 miles to the nearest tarmac road and nearly 40 to the nearest town.
> .


That I can understand. I used the example of Maasai tribesman (extreme example I know!) but I wouldn't suggest they pop down Sainsburys for some Linda McCartney sausages!
Although it does annoy me when people use that argument (or the ol' 'stuck on a desert island' one) and it doesn't apply to their situation at all.


----------



## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

catz4m8z said:


> I mean you really don't have to feel defensive about it if you are happy with your choices,


I have no reason to be defensive. I don't eat meat - haven't for years, but, I would never question someone else as to why they do.


----------



## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Rafa said:


> I have no reason to be defensive. I don't eat meat - haven't for years, but, I would never question someone else as to why they do.


I think it's fine to have this conversation and post a point of view. I've seen no one actually trying to blame or point fingers, a little heated maybe, but then this subject invokes that.

I really admire catz4m8z stance and way of life. Even if I don't see it quite the same, I can see her point. catz4m8z is not an extremist or activist like some we've had on here, just a person who lives by their own moral code and voices their own views, not spewed out views of the anti hunt, anti farming brigade
I always try and see the other side and some of my life choices have been changed slightly by talking about others views, not only in my eating habits but other areas too.


----------



## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Siskin said:


> I guess if you are hungry enough you will eat anything.


Unless you're one of my cats.


----------



## catz4m8z (Aug 27, 2008)

rona said:


> I always try and see the other side and some of my life choices have been changed slightly by talking about others views, not only in my eating habits but other areas too.


Totally agree @rona  . I enjoy hearing other peoples opinions and whilst I do love to argue:Shy its only in the sense of positing questions, sharing viewpoints and challenging/being challenged about beliefs. Many times Ive had my opinions changed by listening to what other people have to say, you cant learn if you live in a bubble after all.



Calvine said:


> Unless you're one of my cats.


yup, cats can be fussy b***ers cant they? My best friend has around 10 or so (I lose track!LOL) and she panders to them all meaning her dining room is so full of cat food it looks like a Zooplus warehouse!:Hilarious


----------

