# Dog Training Discs



## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

I have just received an order I made last week to petcetera. I ordered some dog training kit including a set of Mikki Dog Training Discs. These look like several circular discs on a keyring. I got them because I wanted to interrupt certain behaviours, for example chasing kids or barking whilst we are eating. Im confused.

Inside the pack is a 30 page booklet describing their use, written by John Fisher whoever he is. I quote from the guide:

"Introducing the discs
1. Give the dog some tit bits giving the command take it each time you offer one. (OK so far!!) Without saying anything go to put one of the tit bits on the floor. As the dog follows your hand down, ***** the discs between your fingers. The sound will be totally ignored by the dog, but as your hands reach the floor throw the discs down firmly alongside where the food would have been placed. You will not be letting go of the food at this stage. (NOW CONFUSED) Pick up the discs, totally ignoring the dog who by this time will be investigating the site to see where the food has gone.

2. Repeat the procedure of take it; food to the floor; *****; discs thrown; food and discs removed; ignore the dog, three or four times (more with some dogs). Eventually you should be able to leave the food on the floor and every attempt to approach it will be met with a slight ***** followed by the arrival of the discs if there is not an immediate reaction to the initial sound.

3. The result that you are looking for is that when you offer food with the command take it your dog will accept the food (sometimes you will have to encourage the dog that it is OK to take what is offered after the first few uses of the discs this is perfectly normal) But if you put food on the floor without saying anything then that is your food and your floor and if you want to put your food on the floor your dog has got no right to take it. If it tries there will be a reaction. Once they understand the principal they will immediately walk away when food is placed on the floor without you having to use the discs.

THE DISCS CAN NOW BE USED TO INTERRUPT THE BEHAVIOUR PROBLEMS LISTED ON PAGE 10 THESE SHOULD BE TACKLED ONE AT A TIME."

Right, end of quote.

I dont get this.

Are these useless?

Am I doing it wrong?

It says they dont work by startling the dog, they are supposed to work and i QUOTE the booklet "... the dog learns that its own action creates an unusual reaction and so it learns to avoid that action. This is known as negative reinforcement and is entirely different to a punishment, where the reaction usually comes after the act and is seen to be directly administered by the owner." unquote

I understand the principle of conditioning, but I would have thought that using these discs goes along the lines of pairing behaviour with an aversive stimulus. In which case it seems a bit daft to introduce them with treats. I suppose the treating makes them less threatening, but then does it stop them working?

Please someone, explain it to me. I just dont get it.

edit Just found this and its a bit more helpful, will try again.


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

Yeah I saw those and thought they were odd to be honest...

I don't personally use anything like this, but if you want something to interrupt bad behaviour along these lines, then you can use anything that the dog doesn't know is coming from you. The whole point as I understand it is to make the dog think that something weird/undesirable happens in the environment when they do a certain thing...so not just being told off by you. This also means, in theory, that they will not do the thing when you are not there either, as they do not know you are controlling the thing in the environment...

My sister uses a water pistol as this can be sprayed at the dog...this seems to work...it doesnt scare it, in fact her dog loves playing with water, but it just interrupts what they were doing... and gives her time to then call her over and stop what she was doing... She has also used throwing a book on the floor to make a loud sound...the dog stops what they were doing and goes and investigates the book...However, neither of these things have actually taught the dog not to do the thing...it has only worked as a distraction...

I can't really see the discs working, as I would have thought that over time it will just ignore the sound as it gets used to it?

edit: just read that other link you added:

"_Training discs are used to associate the sound of the discs with the dog not getting an expected reward. _"

I guess now it makes sense that you pair with the food then...still not convinced though!! lol...let us know how you get on with them...would be ineresting to know if it works for you?


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

I use the discs.

They have been an absolute god send to us. In the first instance we had a trainer come to train the dog and us in their use. And since then I've trained all my dogs with them. 

She placed food on the floor and when Nuala went to help herself she dropped the discs, and repeated this until Nuala avoided the food. She was allowed the food when she was told to take it. We use a clicker for positives and discs for negatives. It only took Nuala a couple of times doing the undesirable behaviour before she learnt it wasn't allowed and then there was no further need for the discs. 

Once she was accustomed to the discs I introduced the words ah ah, and she is fine with just this now.

Pm me if you need help with them


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

alaun said:


> I use the discs.
> 
> They have been an absolute god send to us. In the first instance we had a trainer come to train the dog and us in their use. And since then I've trained all my dogs with them.
> 
> ...


That's interesting to know...until now I have not known of anyone to use them...I just use the 'ah ah' sort of sound and this has always worked with maggie...

So I guess it is not the discs specifically but the pairing of 'something' with the 'no food reward' excersice that conditions the response then.

So to make the 'ah ah' more effective for maggie, it would therefore follow that I could do the exercise as you describe using 'ah ah' instead of the discs and this might give the 'ah ah' more power!!?? hhhmm, interesting....I might try it!!


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

Nuala is quite strong willed and although she knows what commands mean, she sometimes chooses not to bother - you can see her thinking about whether or not to do it. The discs help her to make the decision quicker 

I've know of some people who do a similar exercise using pebbles in a jar to make a noise. This works well too, but I think a bottle of pebbles is more cumbersome on a walk, than 3 little discs that sit in your pocket. On occasions we have forgotten them, and have jingled our house keys instead and this works too.

I would always advocate positive reinforcement first, but occasionally they do need reminding what no or ah ah means and this is a gentle method.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

the late great *john fisher* was a well-known trainer; among other things, he was instrumental in the founding of the APDT in the UK. he also wrote a number of books; 
Amazon.com: Why Does My Dog . . . ? (Why Does My . . . ? series) (9780285634817): John Fisher: Books is one, 
EXCERPT - *About the Author - 
John Fisher worked with dogs professionally for more than 20 years. He was a regular contributor to What Dog? and Pet Dog magazines and is the author of  Think Dog  and  Dogwise: The Natural Way to Train Your Dog. * end EXCERPT

* Dogwise  chronicled his training process of the First! positively-reinforced POLICE * CANINE 
in the UK, a dog who achieved among the highest test scores seen when assessed, at least until that time - 
dogs since may have surpassed him, i do not know. * 

the training discs were an offshoot of that training experience and that dog, as he still felt that there needed 
to be a no-reward signal for the dog... which may or may not be true, as plenty of dogs will stop when interrupted 
by a simple *ah-ah!* said clearly and somewhat sharply, and need no further aversives at all.

*fisher* died in the late 1990s, sadly; i think he would have become an even more notable and more pos-R trainer, 
had he had a longer life, and seen the amazing achievements of pos-R training since. 
BTW, the well-known book supplier, ==Dogwise== is named for JFs book + in somewhat tribute. 
cheers, 
--- terry


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## dvnbiker (Dec 2, 2009)

I have used discs but many years ago and only used them when I had tried positive training and it just didnt work as the behaviour was too ingrained. It worked for what I wanted but i would only use them as a last resort.


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## alysonandhedley (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks everyone, interesting to hear other viewpoints. We are going OK with the clicker at the moment, but it isnt possible to be on top of every single incident. Im using the command off and then rewarding him when he stops in his tracks. What just happened is that my 7 year old boy (who btw is high functioning autism) charged down stairs, bound for fridge and snack, through stairgate at bottom of stairs and across the hall towards kitchen. Normally dog would at same time run towards bottom of stairs to grab pyjama leg of child whilst he was running. I saw that coming and before dog could make contact I shouted "Hedley OFF" he looked round at me (therefore didnt grab child) and at that point I clicked. On hearing the click he came to me for treat.

Did I do that correctly?


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## katiefranke (Oct 6, 2008)

alysonandhedley said:


> Thanks everyone, interesting to hear other viewpoints. We are going OK with the clicker at the moment, but it isnt possible to be on top of every single incident. Im using the command off and then rewarding him when he stops in his tracks. What just happened is that my 7 year old boy (who btw is high functioning autism) charged down stairs, bound for fridge and snack, through stairgate at bottom of stairs and across the hall towards kitchen. Normally dog would at same time run towards bottom of stairs to grab pyjama leg of child whilst he was running. I saw that coming and before dog could make contact I shouted "Hedley OFF" he looked round at me (therefore didnt grab child) and at that point I clicked. On hearing the click he came to me for treat.
> 
> Did I do that correctly?


Well done! That's brill!! You did really well to get him to not chase and to give you attention!


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## alaun (Jul 21, 2009)

That's fantastic well done - you did a good job.


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