# Who should pay?? (Dog fight)



## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

I have had such an awful day today. Arranged a meet up with a lady with her male Dobermann. We met on a local field and we let the dogs off together. Her male was already off lead when I arrived onto the field and ran over to Dante had a sniff all fine so then I let Dantè off and just as I released him she said her dog could be grumpy and is wearing a head collar so she can grab him if he starts! I was panicking then and no sooner she said that her male had Dante on the ground, her male was on top of him and then as soon as Dante got up he latched onto her dogs muzzle  it appeared to be through frustration as he was pinned down for so long. Her dog has a wound under his eye which I think we made worse when pulling the dogs apart he has been in the vets since 3pm to have it stitched up. Dante didn't have a mark on him. 

Her dog is insured and she has asked me to pay the excess which I am willing to pay however I do not have the money just yet. She is demanding it now  

Dante is intact her dog is neutered. 

What do I do


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

How well do you know this lady and, more importantly, how well do you know her dog?


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Sweety said:


> How well do you know this lady and, more importantly, how well do you know her dog?


We are both part of a dobermann meet up page on Facebook and I asked if anybody was available for a walk today and she said yes so we met up for the first time. It was the first time I met her and her dog  I am such an imbecile I will admit. Just so upset what has happened today x


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I have had such an awful day today. Arranged a meet up with a lady with her male Dobermann. We met on a local field and we let the dogs off together. Her male was already off lead when I arrived onto the field and ran over to Dante had a sniff all fine so then I let Dantè off and just as I released him she said her dog could be grumpy and is wearing a head collar so she can grab him if he starts! I was panicking then and no sooner she said that her male had Dante on the ground, her male was on top of him and then as soon as Dante got up he latched onto her dogs muzzle  it appeared to be through frustration as he was pinned down for so long. Her dog has a wound under his eye which I think we made worse when pulling the dogs apart he has been in the vets since 3pm to have it stitched up. Dante didn't have a mark on him.
> 
> Her dog is insured and she has asked me to pay the excess which I am willing to pay however I do not have the money just yet. She is demanding it now
> 
> ...


Is your dog not insured?

If it is not, you are in a difficult position.

I would suggest that you tell her that you will wait to hear from her insurers.

Any owner who has their dog insured is obliged to inform their insurers if their dog is involved in an incident involving aggression and failure to do so may invalidate their policy.

Of course reporting it could also impact on their premium or the company may refuse to insure the dog altogether.

Perhaps you could benefit from the advice from a reputable trainer in your area?


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Is your dog not insured?
> 
> If it is not, you are in a difficult position.
> 
> ...


Dantè is not insured no :/ I will tell her yes and I have looked online and it says I have 28 days to pay the bill whether that is correct or not I don't know and I will seek advice from a local trainer X


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

How awful for all concerned. This is just one of the reasons why meeting up with random strangers & their dogs is not a good idea IMO.

I don't know all the ins & outs of making insurance claims so will leave that to other more experienced members, but I will say with the amount of bad experiences Dante has been receiving lately it is probably of more importance you get him out and about and having positive encounters. All these negative encounters will shape his adult temperament.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Gosh you seem to run into uncompromising situations quite a lot. 

Was the fact that her own dog could be "grumpy" not mentioned by her? And I'm surprised she thought meeting up with a young entire male of the same breed was a good choice if she had any common sense.

Both parties are at fault here, it is just unfortunate that one got injured. Both dogs were off the lead and she has confessed that her dog is "grumpy". However as her dog end up receiving veterinary treatment as a result of your dog yes I'd pay the excess personally. She'll just have to wait if you don't have the money to hand right now. 

Lesson learned for the future I hope. I'd be very careful with your male now and would work on getting him to ignore dogs rather than mingle with them.


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## Doggiedelight (Jan 27, 2015)

Both dogs offlead. A chance you take. As both dogs fought and it could easily have been either dog injured then she would get nothing from me.


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Dantè is not insured no :/ I will tell her yes and I have looked online and it says I have 28 days to pay the bill whether that is correct or not I don't know and I will seek advice from a local trainer X


I would strongly suggest you get your dog insured

http://www.doglaw.co.uk/damage-claims/

third party insurance is only £25 per year with Dogs Trust

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/get-involved/membership/


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you for your replies everybody. I am going to pay the excess as I believe we are both at fault we have acted very stupid in this situation I.e. myself having an intact male with another male intact or not. The lady knowing full well that her dog is "grumpy" yet still letting him off. 

Dante and I are quite unfortunate on our walks he seems to get picked on so I am going to work on him ignoring dogs when out walking and try and walk him in areas were there are not many dogs. 

Would this be the case where I would have 28 days to pay up x


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Where does it say you have 28 days to pay?


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

You do seem to have a lot of unfortunate encounters when out with your dog.

Honestly, I would never arrange to meet someone I didn't know, with a dog I didn't know and allow the two dogs to get together simply because they're the same Breed.

I would heed Smokeybear's advice to get the opinion of a reputable Trainer. Not for legal advice but for guidance on what you should or should not be doing with your dog.

At the end of the day, you allowed your dog to interreact with this other dog and he has inflicted an injury. You may have to pay up and learn from it.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you for your replies everybody. I am going to pay the excess as I believe we are both at fault we have acted very stupid in this situation I.e. myself having an intact male with another male intact or not. The lady knowing full well that her dog is "grumpy" yet still letting him off.
> 
> Dante and I are quite unfortunate on our walks he seems to get picked on so I am going to work on him ignoring dogs when out walking and try and walk him in areas were there are not many dogs.
> 
> Would this be the case where I would have 28 days to pay up x


I don't really think your dog gets "picked on". Dogs don't comprehend how to pick on other dogs.

You need to look carefully at your handling techniques and don't allow him to be in situations such as this.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Doggiedelight said:


> Both dogs offlead. A chance you take. As both dogs fought and it could easily have been either dog injured then she would get nothing from me.


I disagree. If two male Dobermanns were both going at each other and meaning it, both would end up injured. In this case the other dog pinned the OP's, very rude behaviour but did not result in injury. It was the OPs dog that used teeth and had to be pulled off the other dog injuring it. Dogs are extremely careful when it comes to bite inhibition, and only one dog got bitten here....


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Where does it say you have 28 days to pay?


I was just looking online and it said about any bills give you 28 days to pay but I don't know whether this just applied to household bills? x


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I was just looking online and it said about any bills give you 28 days to pay but I don't know whether this just applied to household bills? x


Insurance is something entirely different and as you have not been given anyofficial notice to pay I would not concern yourself about the timescale.


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## Fleur (Jul 19, 2008)

As both dogs were off lead and she gave a rather late warning that her dog could be grumpy - both owners made poor judgement 
I would probably offer to pay half the excess and agree both parties were at fault.
In reality I don't think she can "make" you pay unless she takes it to small claims court.
A friends dog was attacked and the other owner agreed to pay the bill, payed a small amount and then refused to answer any calls from my friend. Not a lot could be done it wasn't enough to be worth trying to enforce payment.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

smokeybear said:


> Insurance is something entirely different and as you have not been given anyofficial notice to pay I would not concern yourself about the timescale.


Thank you Smokeybear I am such a worrier so I was panicking.

The lady has been keeping me updated on her dog and she said he went to the vets at 3pm and was operated on 9:30pm and had to take a loan out to pay the excess before I am able to give her the money. I have asked for an itemised bill x


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you for your replies everybody. I am going to pay the excess as I believe we are both at fault we have acted very stupid in this situation I.e. myself having an intact male with another male intact or not. The lady knowing full well that her dog is "grumpy" yet still letting him off.
> 
> Dante and I are quite unfortunate on our walks he seems to get picked on so I am going to work on him ignoring dogs when out walking and try and walk him in areas were there are not many dogs.
> 
> Would this be the case where I would have 28 days to pay up x


You don't need to walk him in an area where "there are not many dogs", just be more realistic about the breed you have and how to handle him. Now he's got a bite history you'll definitely have to be more careful as he has shown he'll use teeth and he'll potentially do it again if a situation presents.

Lead up around other dogs you don't know and you won't run into these situations.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you I will definitely be more aware now. As he now has a bite history would you advise to muzzle him when on walks now? I must admit I rarely let him off in public parks just enclosed fields. Just mortified this has happened


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you I will definitely be more aware now. As he now has a bite history would you advise to muzzle him when on walks now? I must admit I rarely let him off in public parks just enclosed fields. Just mortified this has happened


I wouldn't muzzle personally, just be a lot more careful. I wouldn't be muzzling for the rest of a dogs life's based on one incident where both sides were to blame.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

OK thank you I think if he was a repeat offender then maybe but I will just ensure that I keep a close eye on him x


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Are Dobes not well known for a tendency towards same-sex aggression? Two unknown males off lead together moment after meeting sounds like an altercation waiting to happen. Is Dante your first dog?


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> OK thank you I think if he was a repeat offender then maybe but I will just ensure that I keep a close eye on him x


I think the point is a dog that has used teeth almost certainly will again if pushed (thus the potential is already there to be repeat offender) so it's up to you to not put him in such situations in the future......


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

I own female Bulldogs but Dantè is my first dobermann and first male dog x


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I own female Bulldogs but Dantè is my first dobermann and first male dog x


Out of curiosity, what made you go for a cropped & docked adolescent import for your first Dobie?


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## CFC (Jan 22, 2017)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you I will definitely be more aware now. As he now has a bite history would you advise to muzzle him when on walks now? I must admit I rarely let him off in public parks just enclosed fields. Just mortified this has happened


Seriously?
Dog A went for Dog B and pinned him down.
Dog B then bit Dog A.

Sorry I wouldn't be paying Dog A's vet bill. Let her take you to the small claims court if she thinks she has a chance, I cannot see that in this situation a judgement would be given against you.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

He's Eastern European lines too isn't he? Presumably very different in temperament to the watered down mostly show and pet line Dobermanns in the UK.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

CFC said:


> Seriously?
> Dog A went for Dog B and pinned him down.
> Dog B then bit Dog A.
> 
> Sorry I wouldn't be paying Dog A's vet bill. Let her take you to the small claims court if she thinks she has a chance, I cannot see that in this situation a judgement would be given against you.


Interesting comment for your second post on this forum.....

The dog that was bitten was very rude in pinning down the OPs dog, however the OPs dog was unharmed. It was her dog that self confessed latched onto the other dog and would not let go....if you want to play "what was worse?" then I'd definitely say the dog that was having its face stitched up!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

I would not pay her excess either. She knew full well her dog could be grumpy and did not warn you until it was too late, her dog became aggressive first and could just as easily have damaged your dog. The wound could even have been accidental as you pulled them apart. I would however organise your own insurance as a priority (if Dante had been injured you could be looking at a hefty vets bills for out of hours treatment plus public liability insurance is essential) and be far more careful about letting him interact with dogs you don't know. He is young and you need to make sure his walks are positive experiences and try not to let this happen again.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

SixStar said:


> Out of curiosity, what made you go for a cropped & docked adolescent import for your first Dobie?


I have always wanted a dobermann and have always been fond of the imported ones. I found him online for rehoming and enquired about him


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> I would not pay her excess either. She knew full well her dog could be grumpy and did not warn you until it was too late, her dog became aggressive first and could just as easily have damaged your dog. The wound could even have been accidental as you pulled them apart. I would however organise your own insurance as a priority (if Dante had been injured you could be looking at a hefty vets bills for out of hours treatment plus public liability insurance is essential) and be far more careful about letting him interact with dogs you don't know. He is young and you need to make sure his walks are positive experiences and try not to let this happen again.


Hi I am definitely going to insure him asap. I am mortified that Dante reacted in the manner he did. I am going to now be careful with whom I let him interact with now x


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

labradrk said:


> He's Eastern European lines too isn't he? Presumably very different in temperament to the watered down mostly show and pet line Dobermanns in the UK.


Yes he is from Serbia alot more head strong compared to the UK dobes


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

labradrk said:


> Interesting comment for your second post on this forum.....
> 
> The dog that was bitten was very rude in pinning down the OPs dog, however the OPs dog was unharmed. It was her dog that self confessed latched onto the other dog and would not let go....if you want to play "what was worse?" then I'd definitely say the dog that was having its face stitched up!


She also said the wound could well have been made worse by pulling them apart. Both owners and both dogs in the wrong IMO. I wonder if the other owner would have offered to pay Dante's full vets bill (given he is not insured) had her dog inflicted the injury.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> She also said the wound could well have been made worse by pulling them apart. Both owners and both dogs in the wrong IMO. I wonder if the other owner would have offered to pay Dante's full vets bill (given he is not insured) had her dog inflicted the injury.


As I was pulling Dantè away I could see the wound forming if that makes sense so I have a good feeling that we have made it worse whilst we were pulling our dogs apart. I also wonder whether the lady would offer to pay have it been the other way around


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Yes he is from Serbia alot more head strong compared to the UK dobes


So you need to be much more careful about how you manage him and how you allow contact with other dogs. Please sort his insurance out now, today. Try to be an ambassador for his breed, train him well, form a good relationship with him and concentrate on that rather than meeting up with other owners which can often end in disaster because you tend not to concentrate so much on your own dog. If you want to meet other owners then join a club with him and meet them that way.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi I am definitely going to insure him asap. I am mortified that Dante reacted in the manner he did. I am going to now be careful with whom I let him interact with now x


I wouldn't be mortified in the way he reacted, it was in hindsight the consequence of a not particularly well thought out situation between two male dogs one entire of a breed known for same sex aggression.....


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> She also said the wound could well have been made worse by pulling them apart. Both owners and both dogs in the wrong IMO. I wonder if the other owner would have offered to pay Dante's full vets bill (given he is not insured) had her dog inflicted the injury.


It didn't though so no point in arguing the what ifs.

Yes both at fault but only one was bitten and needed treatment.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Thanks again everyone for your replies I really appreciate it. I have attached an image of the wound which as you can see has spread upon us pulling the dogs apart.

I want to ensure I am an ambassador for the breed and I will work extremely hard now to manage him correctly


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2017)

labradrk said:


> just be more realistic about the breed you have and how to handle him.


This.

You have an intact male teenager doberman. It's hard not to say "what the heck were you thinking" but seriously, what the heck were you thinking?

That's no small gash on that other dog's eye either. Please heed the advice to get with a good trainer and start really understanding the kind of dog you have and the importance of how to safely manage this kind of dog.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

That's a nasty injury.

Your dog meant business.

Seriously, you need to recognise that you own a large and powerful breed and a dog that has shown he will use his teeth when under stress.

Get some professional help - I fear you're either naïve or overdogged.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> This.
> 
> You have an intact male teenager doberman. It's hard not to say "what the heck were you thinking" but seriously, what the heck were you thinking?
> 
> That's no small gash on that other dog's eye either. Please heed the advice to get with a good trainer and start really understanding the kind of dog you have and the importance of how to safely manage this kind of dog.


Thank you for your reply. I am definitely going to enlist the help of a good trainer.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thanks again everyone for your replies I really appreciate it. I have attached an image of the wound which as you can see has spread upon us pulling the dogs apart.
> 
> I want to ensure I am an ambassador for the breed and I will work extremely hard now to manage him correctly


That is a nasty wound. Extremely lucky it was not a inch higher, where really serious damage could have occurred.

I hope this will be a wake up call for you.

You do not sound an irresponsible owner by any means, but there have been several things I've picked up on where the term "over dogged" springs to mind.

Why was Dante being rehomed? Do you have any back up or support from his previous owners?

I appreciate you may have 'liked' the imported lines, but liking something is not a reason to proceed - it seems a very poor choice for a novice.

I hope the other dog heals quickly and you are able to get some support from a reputable trainer and people heavily experienced with the breed.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Sweety said:


> That's a nasty injury.
> 
> Your dog meant business.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply. I am definitely going to get in touch with a professional trainer asap


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

SixStar said:


> That is a nasty wound. Extremely lucky it was not a inch higher, where really serious damage could have occurred.
> 
> I hope this will be a wake up call for you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply SixStar I know extremely lucky  Dante was being rehomed due to his previous owners mother suffering from dementia and he had become her full time carer so he did not have time for Dantè anymore.

His owner hasn't been in touch since. I managed to find him on Facebook and he soon purchased another dog a cane corso.

I did also research the breed despite just liking the breed x


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## Piguinn (Nov 21, 2016)

Sorry to hear 
Actually, the fact that she had her dog off leash already knowing that they are meeting someone new says something... especially since her dog obviously isn't very reliable.


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you for your reply SixStar I know extremely lucky  Dante was being rehomed due to his previous owners mother suffering from dementia and he had become her full time carer so he did not have time for Dantè anymore.
> 
> His owner hasn't been in touch since. I managed to find him on Facebook and he soon purchased another dog a cane corso.
> 
> I did also research the breed despite just liking the breed x


I find this extremely odd.

I totally understand the desire to import when seeking a dog of particular breeding.

But to rehome an unwanted pet from an online advert? Presumably Dante is not from a reputable breeder or they would have taken him back, or sourced a home within local dog circles, rather than allowing him to go to an inexperienced owner in the UK? Serbia is hardly a quick hop across the channel tunnel.

I know Dante is with you now and he's a lovely dog I'm sure, but I am very much struggling with the circumstances surrounding his purchase.

You say you like the imported lines but I presume little is known about this dogs breeding? You did not wish to source a dog from a particular breeder so I do not understand what was to gain from importing? Do you mean that you prefer the physical features of an imported dog - one that is cropped & docked?


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

SixStar said:


> I find this extremely odd.
> 
> I totally understand the desire to import when seeking a dog of particular breeding.
> 
> ...


Dante's previous owner imported him from a Kennel in Serbia aged 4 months to the UK and then he was up for rehoming aged 13 months. The kennel where he was from I researched.

Yes I was wanting to source a cropped and docked doberman preferably which had been imported into the UK already x


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## SixStar (Dec 8, 2009)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Dante's previous owner imported him from a Kennel in Serbia aged 4 months to the UK and then he was up for rehoming aged 13 months. The kennel where he was from I researched.
> 
> Yes I was wanting to source a cropped and docked doberman preferably which had been imported into the UK already x


Right ok, he was already in the UK, this makes marginally more sense. I have always read your posts to, clearly wrongly, assume that you imported him yourself.

I very much hope you're able to get some support and advice from knowledgeable, reputable breeders & owners very soon.

Purchasing a dog heavily based on looks is incredibly unwise - unless there are particular traits you were wanting to source through an Eastern European dog? So far I've only heard 'more headstrong than UK dobes' mentioned and I doubt (I hope) this was not meant as a desirable for yourself, for your first experience of an already potentially difficult breed. I think diluted UK pet/show lines would have been than enough of a challenge for a first timer, but there we are.

At the end of the day, the Dog is brought, some damage is already done. You need to fire on all cylinders to get on top of management with this dog, quickly.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you for your reply again SixStar. 

I did research the European type of Dobermann before purchasing and I do love the look but I didn't purchase him solely for his look. The euros have more drive they are more of a working type of doberman and this is what I wanted. I am starting agility and scent work with him soon. X


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## CFC (Jan 22, 2017)

labradrk said:


> Interesting comment for your second post on this forum.....
> 
> The dog that was bitten was very rude in pinning down the OPs dog, however the OPs dog was unharmed. It was her dog that self confessed latched onto the other dog and would not let go....if you want to play "what was worse?" then I'd definitely say the dog that was having its face stitched up!


Do I get a cookie for posting an interesting comment?

Could be pure luck that OPs dog was unharmed, who knows, it certainly wasn't due to good training of the other dog. As an onlooker I would say, dog gets aggressed on, dog bites, no payment. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. And I speak as someone who actually doesn't think that anybody should have a Rottie as a pet.

Burn me now as a witch if you like :Wtf


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you for your reply again SixStar.
> 
> I did research the European type of Dobermann before purchasing and I do love the look but I didn't purchase him solely for his look. The euros have more drive they are more of a working type of doberman and this is what I wanted. I am starting agility and scent work with him soon. X


I'm sorry this happened. I personally don't think agility would be a good idea until he has had lots of training. They do a lot of off lead work and dogs can get very excited. My yorkie used to be nervous and so I did loads of 1:1 training. It has made a huge difference and now I just take my dogs as I want to go through the obedience levels.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

CFC said:


> And I speak as someone who actually doesn't think that anybody should have a Rottie as a pet.


OP's dog is a doberman....


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Jobeth said:


> I'm sorry this happened. I personally don't think agility would be a good idea until he has had lots of training. They do a lot of off lead work and dogs can get very excited. My yorkie used to be nervous and so I did loads of 1:1 training. It has made a huge difference and now I just take my dogs as I want to go through the obedience levels.


I was thinking of enlisting him into 1to1 training you see.


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## CFC (Jan 22, 2017)

ouesi said:


> OP's dog is a doberman....


Funnily enough, I can read. Both Dober dogs.
That's a fail at witch burning


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

CFC said:


> Funnily enough, I can read. Both Dober dogs.
> That's a fail at witch burning


Then why did you bring up rottweilers? 
Are you wanting a witch burning? 'Cause I'm not.


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## Jobeth (May 23, 2010)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I was thinking of enlisting him into 1to1 training you see.


Just check them out first of all. The first trainer I took my older dog to was dreadful. Luckily he picked things up quickly, but I didn't like how the trainer dealt with dogs that needed extra support. This trainer is completely different and both my dogs get so excited when they see her as they love going so much.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

CFC said:


> Do I get a cookie for posting an interesting comment?
> 
> Could be pure luck that OPs dog was unharmed, who knows, it certainly wasn't due to good training of the other dog. As an onlooker I would say, dog gets aggressed on, dog bites, no payment. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. And I speak as someone who actually doesn't think that anybody should have a Rottie as a pet.
> 
> Burn me now as a witch if you like :Wtf


Nice try at trolling, you are clearly a member under a different name. Get a life


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you for your reply again SixStar.
> 
> I did research the European type of Dobermann before purchasing and I do love the look but I didn't purchase him solely for his look. The euros have more drive they are more of a working type of doberman and this is what I wanted. I am starting agility and scent work with him soon. X


Precisely, they are more of a working type dog than 95% of Dobermann's in this country, with the temperament to boot. I remember your thread a couple months ago when you said a small dog was 'attacking' him and that he just ran away, and several people including myself mentioned that he'll get to an age where he will NOT put up with that, and will defend himself. Well, that just happened.

I don't know what sorts of groups you are on but most Dobermann owners on UK based forums and groups will own pet and show bred ones. If you have not already it may be worth connecting with (virtually, not in real life ) owners of working type Dobermann's for pointers. If you are near any Working Trial or IPO clubs they would likely be a great resource too. I'm not sure I'd rush straight into agility unless he has a very strong obedience foundation as it is very over arousing.

As I am sure you now realise this is not the sort of dog you allow to greet all and sundry in the park.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you for your reply again SixStar.
> 
> I did research the European type of Dobermann before purchasing and I do love the look but I didn't purchase him solely for his look. The euros have more drive they are more of a working type of doberman and this is what I wanted. I am starting agility and scent work with him soon. X


Many if not most of the Doberman in Eastern Europe are bred with the intention of them becoming either security or Police dogs rather than family pets In Hungary where many trainers are former Police dog handlers/trainers, breeds such as Doberman, Rotties and GSD's normally go through BH training before going on to IPO training. My own two dogs although not suitable breeds for IPO have completed their BH course.

I'd recommend you find a trainer who specialises in BH and IPO but one that only uses positive methods. If my experience is anything to go by, at our first session, our trainer assessed both dogs stress threshold and based their whole training around that evaluation. I was lucky because both mine are virtually bomb proof and one of my dogs went on to act as a stooge dog when training more reactive dogs.


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## rockdot (Jul 19, 2016)

I personally think the situation was caused by the other dog owner, she knew her dog was 'grumpy' so should not have arranged the meet or at least told you about her dog before you met. Her dog also instigated the fight so I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that Dante defended himself.
I think the whole situation was down to poor planning and it's a shame that Dante will now have to be a bit more restricted because of this incident.
If I were you I'd not be giving her a penny as it could have so easily been avoided.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

CFC said:


> doesn't think that anybody should have a Rottie as a pet.


Which Rottweiler are you talking about? I'm lost here.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

After seeing that wound I think paying the excess is the least you can do.
I would also look into seeking out a trainer that can teach you how to handle Dante so that things like this don't happen again.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

Has the picture of the wound been removed, I can't see it anywhere?

Tricky situation and not one I would want to find myself or my dog in. i think Dante needs to be kept on a lead and his subsequent meetings with any other dog kept short and low key. Far better to take him off the footpath into a sit and concentrating on you rather then have a face to face confrontation with a strange dog coming in the opposite direction.

As to who pays? Bit torn here as the other dog did instigate the attack, but Dante appears to have retaliated after they were split up. As others have said, I feel he will be inclined to use his teeth again given the opportunity so management and further training is needed. To a large extent it is a fifty fifty situation, her dog attacked yours who then retaliated. I wonder if she would accept 50% of the excess from you.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I think you've been given good solid advice already.

Was a silly situation allowing two intact dogs, whom have never ever met before to be allowed off lead together. Especially when the breed can have same-sex aggression. A stupid mistake and just lucky no further harm was done. I couldn't see the attached image so assume its been removed?

Find yourself a good trainer. You have a large powerful dog that could do serious damage if not handled correctly.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

One thing keeps coming back to me while reading this thread and that's if you had researched the breed and in particular the Eastern European lines yours has, then why would let your dog off lead with another male Dobe? grumpy one at that?
That other Dobe was not up for socialising with yours and told him so, yours seemed to be not having being pinned down and had to retaliate. 

Yes, I would pay the vet bill, her dog warned yours with no harm done, yours is the one that bit.


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## MaggiesMom (Oct 13, 2016)

I can't see a picture?
I would pay if it were me because it could have been a lot worse, I would also be scared they would take it further and something could happen to my dog,but that's just me over worrying.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

I cannot see the picture of the wound so cant comment on that. But the whole thing sounds a dreadful error of judgement by both of you. Her dog started it so your dog retaliating is not really a true indication of your dog's likelihood to bite. I think the most I would offer her is half the excess as it is definitely equally down to her. If that happened to one of my dogs on a pre arranged off lead meeting even if they did not instigate it I would not dream of asking the other person to pay anything towards the vets bill.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

rockdot said:


> I personally think the situation was caused by the other dog owner, she knew her dog was 'grumpy' so should not have arranged the meet or at least told you about her dog before you met. Her dog also instigated the fight so I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised that Dante defended himself.
> I think the whole situation was down to poor planning and it's a shame that Dante will now have to be a bit more restricted because of this incident.
> If I were you I'd not be giving her a penny as it could have so easily been avoided.


Indeed.

Similar thing happened with me the other day (although Jack was on lead and we weren't socialising).

Small off leash froo froo dog launched itself snarling and growling at Jack. I caught it by the harness before it got to him and shoved it back at it's owners! unch

Who stated "he's grumpy" and "he's got no teeth". (Oh, that's OK then - NOT!)

Had Jack decided to defend himself and bitten the dog (not his normal behaviour BTW, but there's always a first time) I can think of two words to say to the owner who asked ME to cough up for their excess - and they both bounce! unch

Unfortunately, though the Dog Law might not agree with me - not entirely sure about that, however unfair it seems


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Siskin said:


> Has the picture of the wound been removed, I can't see it anywhere?
> 
> Tricky situation and not one I would want to find myself or my dog in. i think Dante needs to be kept on a lead and his subsequent meetings with any other dog kept short and low key. Far better to take him off the footpath into a sit and concentrating on you rather then have a face to face confrontation with a strange dog coming in the opposite direction.
> 
> As to who pays? Bit torn here as the other dog did instigate the attack, but Dante appears to have retaliated after they were split up. As others have said, I feel he will be inclined to use his teeth again given the opportunity so management and further training is needed. To a large extent it is a fifty fifty situation, her dog attacked yours who then retaliated. I wonder if she would accept 50% of the excess from you.


Would we define being pinned down as being 'attacked' though? it's very rude behaviour, but bullying in the case of most dogs rather than out-and-out aggression. Most of my dogs have been pinned down by another dog at some point in their lives, and Bo pinned a dog once years ago (Spaniel zoomed around the corner straight into her, my fault bad management), it's not nice, but I'm not sure I'd define it as being attacked when there is no damage. Yeah it looks unpleasant but dogs are masters of bite inhibition.

That being said Dexter was ran at and pinned down by a muzzled Vizsla and that dog did mean business.

But in this case yes it was the culmination of a very poorly thought out situation, with two male dogs of a breed not known for being pushovers.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

StormyThai said:


> After seeing that wound I think paying the excess is the least you can do.
> I would also look into seeking out a trainer that can teach you how to handle Dante so that things like this don't happen again.


The OP stated that the wound was exacerbated by them pulling the dogs apart though.

I agree the OP is now in a tricky situation and protecting Dante from a repeat of the situation is essential as we all know how difficult it is to keep other peoples' dogs away from our own.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming hope you have sorted out some insurance now. I do remember having a discussion with you about insurance before you got Dante - you were wondering why the premiums were so high for a male Doberman and I suggested it might well be because of the high incidence of DCM in the breed. If you didn't take out the insurance because of the cost you might want to look at a policy that gives accidental cover along with public liability which it is essential you have.

I'm assuming you have now removed the photograph as I can't see it either. One of my previous rotties sustained a gash beneath his eye in a similar situation. I was walking with a friend who we met up with several times a week, she had a male boxer and my male rottie and him had a few hand bag spats over the years, a lot of noise and soon forgotten. On one occasion they got a bit nasty and my dog sustained a gash. I would not have dreamt of asking her for money, we both knew our dogs could be a bit stroppy with each other so we were both equally to blame which is what I feel about your situation too. I don't know how she could argue that your dog was out of control given hers had just pinned him but whatever the rights or wrongs do make absolutely sure you do not put Dante in this situation again.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Can't see the pic, but I read your 1st post again and it doesn't sound like you saw the entire thing, did you? In which case was your dog annoying the other one? to cause it to pin yours?

@Lurcherlad - WTF is a Froo Froo dog? :Hilarious


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Muttly said:


> Can't see the pic, but read your 1st post again and it doesn;t sound like you saw the entire thing, did you? In which case was your dog annoying the other one? to cause it to pin yours?
> 
> @Lurcherlad - WTF is a Froo Froo dog? :Hilarious


Small, fluffy, yappy, unfriendly, untrained ..... You get the picture!


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Lurcherlad said:


> Small, fluffy, yappy, unfriendly, untrained ..... You get the picture!


Oh I see lol


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming ok also remember you saying you were getting him insured when you got him - why didn't you?

An absolute minimum for any dog owner is public liability insurance - have you at least got that?


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Lurcherlad said:


> The OP stated that the wound was exacerbated by them pulling the dogs apart though.
> 
> I agree the OP is now in a tricky situation and protecting Dante from a repeat of the situation is essential as we all know how difficult it is to keep other peoples' dogs away from our own.


The picture has been deleted now but it is quite a nasty wound.
Whilst the wound was most likely exacerbated by pulling the dogs apart, and I do agree that both owners were at fault for what happened. If my dog caused a wound like that I would be paying the excess without argument.

Yes the other dog started the altercation, but Dante's response was OTT IMHO.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

StormyThai said:


> The picture has been deleted now but it is quite a nasty wound.
> Whilst the wound was most likely exacerbated by pulling the dogs apart, and I do agree that both owners were at fault for what happened. If my dog caused a wound like that I would be paying the excess without argument.
> 
> Yes the other dog started the altercation, but Dante's response was OTT IMHO.


Not sure its possible to say that without having seen the incident though. We have no idea how aggressive the other dog was when it pinned Dante or how much of the wound inflicted was done with intent to harm. The fact that the other owner already knew her dog was iffy/grumpy with other dogs and chose to let him off lead to run at and pin another dog whom she has not met before means she takes equal responsibility in my view.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

It is odd how opinions vary so much on this. The only time I have ever had one of my dogs involved in any 'nastiness' was when Candy disobeyed my wait command and carried on walking through a group of off lead dogs on a canal tow path. One of them set on her and knocked her onto the edge of a canal boat so she was sort of hanging over. The other dog's owner rescued her, they apologised, I apologised for my dog disobeying me and even if she had needed veterinary attention I would not have expected them to pay. Ok, so their dog should not go for another dog and it was probably as well Candy went flying or she might have been bitten but I had allowed my dog to get in a dangerous situation. That is my take but I remember posting about it on here and a lot of people thinking I was not to blame at all.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

To me it sounds like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other to be honest. My Lab will retaliate if another dog bowls him over and pins him down or tries to. So would I to be perfectly honest! But it's noise and slobber, a "knock it off!" rather than an attempt to hurt the other dog. And I have to say, if he did hurt a dog that had run up and done this to him I would not be happy at being told to pay the vet bill! I'm sick and tired of dogs having a pop at him and then being told "oh he can be a bit funny with other dogs" to be perfectly honest. Why the f*ck is it off lead and allowed to run up to my dog if that's the case??? Where I'd stand legally on the matter I don't know as I was told that even if my leashed and muzzled dog (my previous dog, not Spen) injured another I could still be held liable.

And I think if you've got a Dobe from European lines you may well need to do a little more research. I know next to nothing about them but know full well that they're not your average dog park dog and are prone to same sex aggression. Meeting up with someone with another male and just letting them off together seems a bit silly to me.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Lurcherlad said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Similar thing happened with me the other day (although Jack was on lead and we weren't socialising).
> 
> ...


My Auntie had a similar situation a few years ago - her GSD was on lead and a Jack Russell rushed up to them off-lead. Nothing actually happened, but my Auntie was advised by her policeman friend at the time that as her dog was on-lead, even if it had bitten the jack Russell then she wouldn't be held liable as her dog was under control.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sairy said:


> My Auntie had a similar situation a few years ago - her GSD was on lead and a Jack Russell rushed up to them off-lead. Nothing actually happened, but my Auntie was advised by her policeman friend at the time that as her dog was on-lead, even if it had bitten the jack Russell then she wouldn't be held liable as her dog was under control.


Whereas I was advised the opposite, that if my leashed dog injured a loose dog that ran up and had a go at him I could be held liable. Apparently it's not as black and white as on lead = under control therefore not at fault.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Whereas I was advised the opposite, that if my leashed dog injured a loose dog that ran up and had a go at him I could be held liable. Apparently it's not as black and white as on lead = under control therefore not at fault.


@Sarah1983 is correct, on lead does not equal in control. The argument would be if your dog was likely to react that way and bite another dog that ran up to it then it should be muzzled.

Direct from the gov.uk website

*Out of control*
Your dog is considered dangerously out of control if it:


injures someone
makes someone worried that it might injure them
A court could also decide that your dog is dangerously out of control if either of the following apply:


it attacks someone's animal
the owner of an animal thinks they could be injured if they tried to stop your dog attacking their animal

Nowhere in these paragraphs does it state whether it applies on or off lead.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not sure its possible to say that without having seen the incident though. We have no idea how aggressive the other dog was when it pinned Dante or how much of the wound inflicted was done with intent to harm. The fact that the other owner already knew her dog was iffy/grumpy with other dogs and chose to let him off lead to run at and pin another dog whom she has not met before means she takes equal responsibility in my view.


That's true, but we don't know either why the second dog felt the need to pin Dante down in the first place. Was Dante giving off a bad or aggressive 'vibe' to the second dog?

So far as equal responsibility financially is concerned, the owner of the other dog is claiming on her insurance for the injury, so could find her insurance premiums are higher in future as a result.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

This is a tricky one. I have had dog's run up to Muttly while he's on lead and he's told them to piss off, by growling, barking and some have in return pinned him! If it's a big dog, he will yelp and retreat, if it's a small dog he will up it to that serious fast series of barks, sometimes an air snap.
He wouldn't bite them. I trust this because he's had a few opportunities where has been either scared or pissed off, neither has triggered a bite. I think this point should be looked at.
Dante didn't air snap, he bit. From what Ellen has posted, OP needs to be careful and pay up to keep the other owner sweet, as if they report it, OP could be in trouble.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Just a comment re the insurance, @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming, not read every post in detail, so apologies if someone else also said this: it does occur to me that you may well have to advise any potential insurance company that your dog, has, in fact, shown certain tendencies which have resulted in another dog requiring treatment. Even with my mare I was asked I seem to recall if she had ever displayed behaviour resulting in ...injury to another/legal action etc.
So sorry you have had this with your boy...and as to which is at fault, it is very seldom that anything is cut and dried with animals. Good luck anyway...it must have been a dreadful shock for you.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Calvine said:


> Just a comment re the insurance, @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming, not read every post in detail, so apologies if someone else also said this: it does occur to me that you may well have to advise any potential insurance company that your dog, has, in fact, shown certain tendencies which have resulted in another dog requiring treatment. Even with my mare I was asked I seem to recall if she had ever displayed behaviour resulting in ...injury to another/legal action etc.
> So sorry you have had this with your boy...and as to which is at fault, it is very seldom that anything is cut and dried with animals. Good luck anyway...it must have been a dreadful shock for you.


This is a very good point.

Before Petplan will quote you, you have to tick this box:

_In the last 5 years concerns have not been raised about your dog's behaviour.

Your dog:
_

_Has not attacked, bitten or been aggressive towards another person or animal, been in any fights or shown any aggressive tendencies._


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

I get why @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming has been trying to have positive interactions with other dogs and feeling a sense of responsibility to continually socialise him. It's unfortunate these encounters have been largely negative so far. I can't remember who said it, maybe Labradrk?, but I also remember the thread about him being run at and charged by a smaller dog and Dante running away. Thing is, he more negativity he encounters the more he will come to learn to be defensive and being more 'sharp' than perhaps UK lines, he will resort to that behaviour quicker IMO. The best thing you can do now is avoid off lead dog interactions, work on having him ignoring other dogs, focusing on you, walking in positive environments with little chance of off lead dogs accosting you. Dogs do not need to be off lead running & playing with each other, and I think when you do own a dog with a sharper 'harder' for lack of a better word, temperament you do have to be extremely careful in allowing them to randomly meet dogs.

My own dog Cash is relatively good with other dogs but he's VERY rough and will use bully boy like tactics to get other dogs to do what he wants, because of this he never meets & plays with random dogs. He was also fine as a youngster, but as he's got older he can be intolerant and growl at some dogs. All of that combined is not unusual for a dog of his breed/age but it does mean as an owner I have to take extra measures to ensure he's not put in a situation where he would have to resort to defensive behaviour ( which he would also be quicker to resort to ) or his behaviour is used to intimidate other dogs.

By all means you can join training clubs and the like, without the need for any dogs to be interacting. That is more than enough IMO for dogs to remain socialised with others just by being exposed to them regularly.


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## mrs phas (Apr 6, 2014)

Sweety said:


> That's true, but we don't know either why the second dog felt the need to pin Dante down in the first place. Was Dante giving off a bad or aggressive 'vibe' to the second dog?


my heart dog Darcy was a real gentle giant, was used at training as a stooge dog for the puppy class, to teach them that giant dogs were not scary. He would let puppies crawl all over him, bite his ears et all and he gave them all the puppy priviledges the world could want
he played like a big goofball with male and female dogs, was great with kids, was everything you could want in a dog, let alone a dark brindle scary looking gt dane x mastiff
until we got our eyes opened after bout 1 year of having him.
He was offlead in a field, playing with two of his friends, when suddenly he was off like a shot and attacked, with no warning, an elderly dog coming through the field gate, at the other end of the field, this was the first time he had failed a recall or a down
luckily one of my sons was fast behind me and the damage to the, as it turned out, very elderly collie, was minimal, I immediately drove him and the owner to the vet and payed for it
turns out, this was the first ENTIRE male dog we had met since owning Darcy, we contacted a behaviourist who confirmed my suspicion re Darcy and entire male dogs
From that day Darcy was longlined only, thankfully, as he reacted every single time, but was completely under control

Seeing as OP has stated that second dog was neutered [as was Darcy] and Dante not, could this second dog also have an aversion to entire dogs? I know the old collie was too far away for Darcy to have seen or reacted to any vibes being given off, by an old plodding collie, smell maybe, i presume entire dogs smell different to neutered ones due to hormones and pheramones


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Could be something in that @mrs phas I find quite a few neutered males are iffy with Spen who is entire yet are generally fine with other males. Never had a full on attack on him from one but we get a lot of bully boy tactics, lots of button pushing etc. It's one reason I don't tend to go to fields but instead go to places where we can walk as it means I can avoid problems more easily. Yet I find once they've pushed him far enough that he's put his foot down with them they're usually fine. I just don't like it reaching that point so practice avoidance as much as I can.

My entire rottie mix was often targeted by other dogs too. Perhaps for the same reason.


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> Not sure its possible to say that without having seen the incident though. We have no idea how aggressive the other dog was when it pinned Dante or how much of the wound inflicted was done with intent to harm. The fact that the other owner already knew her dog was iffy/grumpy with other dogs and chose to let him off lead to run at and pin another dog whom she has not met before means she takes equal responsibility in my view.


To me it doesn't matter who had intent to do what. The other dog did not harm Dante, if he had then my response would be different.
If my dog had wounded another to the extent Dante did then I would pay up, in fact I would be offering.

Neither dog should have been put in that situation, but only one came away requiring surgery.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi everyone thank you for your replies. 

I have offered to pay the excess however I do not have the money on hand right now however the lady is insiting that I pay her asap. I am going away on Wednesday so I have no money to give and would only be able to give her the money once I return. 

The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi everyone thank you for your replies.
> 
> I have offered to pay the excess however I do not have the money on hand right now however the lady is insiting that I pay her asap. I am going away on Wednesday so I have no money to give and would only be able to give her the money once I return.
> 
> The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


Perhaps may be worth contacting Trevor http://www.doglaw.co.uk/


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## AlexPed2393 (Oct 5, 2016)

You could offer to pay what you can afford now and the rest when you get back?


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Hanwombat said:


> Perhaps may be worth contacting Trevor http://www.doglaw.co.uk/


I have spoken to his colleague this morning she has given him my number and he is going to contact me


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

AlexPed2393 said:


> You could offer to pay what you can afford now and the rest when you get back?


I have offered but she wants the full excess amount


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## evel-lin (Jul 1, 2010)

can you borrow the money temporarily?


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

No


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> No


How much is the excess fee? About £90 or something? Could you perhaps get a small loan?


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## rockdot (Jul 19, 2016)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi everyone thank you for your replies.
> 
> I have offered to pay the excess however I do not have the money on hand right now however the lady is insiting that I pay her asap. I am going away on Wednesday so I have no money to give and would only be able to give her the money once I return.
> 
> The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


If this women is getting nasty before you have paid her and threatening to report you, go to the police yourself, explain the situation to them and that you were going to pay the excess but she's threatening you now. Do not give her a penny yet! You can pay with a police witness.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi everyone thank you for your replies.
> 
> I have offered to pay the excess however I do not have the money on hand right now however the lady is insiting that I pay her asap. I am going away on Wednesday so I have no money to give and would only be able to give her the money once I return.
> 
> The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


Make sure to tell Trevor that the women knew her dog was "grumpy" with other dogs and that she stated she had left a head collar on him so that she could grab him if he starts. That as she is a more experienced Doberman owner than you, you trusted her judgement. That her dog behaved aggressively first by pinning yours and that whilst you agree your dog did bite hers you believe it was done in self defence and that the wound was made worse by you both pulling your dogs apart. The DDA covers any dog dangerously out of control (not just the one who bites) so I think she would be on very shaky ground to involve the police or the dog warden as her dog was equally out of control. Dig around a bit and you may find this is not the first time her dog has behaved aggressively, in which case she should have been taking better precautions to control him thus avoiding the whole incident.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi everyone thank you for your replies.
> 
> I have offered to pay the excess however I do not have the money on hand right now however the lady is insiting that I pay her asap. I am going away on Wednesday so I have no money to give and would only be able to give her the money once I return.
> 
> The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


If that's the case now withdraw your offer to pay as that will be admitting liability. Frankly she doesn't have a case as she admitted her dog was aggressive (let's not dress up in fluffy bunny words like "grumpy"), knowing that her dog shouldn't have been off the lead in company.

Now pop along to the local police station and explain what happened and ask what you should do now, if anything. This makes you the more responsible owner, and you'll have a clear cut course of action.

Frankly it shouldn't have ever gone this far. Dogs will sometimes fight, it's a risk you take every time you let them off the lead and you accept the risks. In this case the known aggressive dog acted to form and started a fight (presuming the given account of events is true). The fact he came out worse isn't your fault or liability.

Anyhow, lesson learned, and for the love of God don't meet up with strangers you meet on Facebook again.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Hanwombat said:


> How much is the excess fee? About £90 or something? Could you perhaps get a small loan?


It is £237


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> No


See this worries me @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming. You don't have insurance and you have no means of raising the excess of this other owner's claim yet you own a big, powerful dog. As you know I don't agree you should pay but it does concern me that you couldn't raise that money. What if Dante had been the injured one and you had to take him for out of hours emergency treatment? what if Dante had been in the wrong and had attacked and seriously injured another dog? what if Dante had run in the road and caused an accident?


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Ouch!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> It is £237


What sort of excess is that? most are more like £70 or £90 although some work on a percentage basis particularly with an older dog. How much was the total bill for stitching up a wound?


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## Dogloverlou (Dec 8, 2013)

Honestly, I'd think she's taking liberties now threatening to report you. If you're going away on Wednesday though you must have something saved up or put aside? It might just mean you have to use that to get this sorted ASAP.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sweety said:


> I don't really think your dog gets "picked on". Dogs don't comprehend how to pick on other dogs.
> 
> .


My eldest dog manuex, whom I lost almost a year ago had never ever ever show any aggression towards another dog. Yet he had been attacked on numerous occasions, could never ever ever work out why wherever any dog came towards him he would just wag his little stump of a tail like mad. Very odd, I wish someone could tell me why this was as neither of my bitches have had to endure this,


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> See this worries me @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming. You don't have insurance and you have no means of raising the excess of this other owner's claim yet you own a big, powerful dog. As you know I don't agree you should pay but it does concern me that you couldn't raise that money. What if Dante had been the injured one and you had to take him for out of hours emergency treatment? what if Dante had been in the wrong and had attacked and seriously injured another dog? what if Dante had run in the road and caused an accident?


I know it could not have happened at worse time I have a tin full of "vet fees" which has just gone on my bulldog who injured her pad she slit it on glass whilst out walking . We were in and out of the vets the whole week as it kept swelling up and she needed to have it drained. cost me an arm and a leg so that tin has gone on her.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> What sort of excess is that? most are more like £70 or £90 although some work on a percentage basis particularly with an older dog. How much was the total bill for stitching up a wound?


I thought it was a hell of a lot she said the bill was £474


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I thought it was a hell of a lot she said the bill was £474


So she is asking you to pay 50% of the total claim? Either she has a crap insurance policy that only pay 50% of a claim or she is trying to diddle you.


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## Siskin (Nov 13, 2012)

DT said:


> My eldest dog manuex, whom I lost almost a year ago had never ever ever show any aggression towards another dog. Yet he had been attacked on numerous occasions, could never ever ever work out why wherever any dog came towards him he would just wag his little stump of a tail like mad. Very odd, I wish someone could tell me why this was as neither of my bitches have had to endure this,


My last retriever seemed to have a similar effect on other dogs. She would be just walking past another dog trying not to look at it as she was more of a nervous aggressive dog and all of a sudden the dog would have a go at her with othe owner apologising and saying 'he's not done that before'. It happened too many times for it not to be true and it unfortunately confirmed my dogs suspicion that other dogs were not to be trusted. 
I put it down to that she had poor body language.


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## labradrk (Dec 10, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> It is £237


You what?? Who is the insurer? Never heard of one setting an excess so high?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi everyone thank you for your replies.
> 
> I have offered to pay the excess however I do not have the money on hand right now however the lady is insiting that I pay her asap. I am going away on Wednesday so I have no money to give and would only be able to give her the money once I return.
> 
> The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


EH? every dog has the "ability" to bite a child.
The most dog aggressive dog in the known universe may well be excellent with children. Dog aggression, does not equal human/ child aggression.
Pay this bloody woman when you can afford it - she has had her dog treated, its not in medical need, its been seen to - its fine. Making DDA threats to you, and insisting you pay her instantly wouldnt work in my book.
Wonder what you would have done had it been your dog needing this operation? As you have no insurance and cant find £300 instantly.?

My dog was bitten by a mates dog a long time ago. Both had never been an issue with each other before...... it was our fault - a ball was involved. My dog had the ball, her dog wanted it and thought my dog should give it up, he didn't There was a scrap, we broke it up quickly. Mates dog not a mark on him, my dog had a nasty puncture wound to his chest. She paid my vets bill, I would have paid hers had it been the other way round- ALL of it, not just the excess.


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## ellenlouisepascoe (Jul 12, 2013)

I would ask her to ask her vets to produce a bill it should show you the total amount claimed from the insurance minus the excess as that seems far too much for simply excess. 

I have to say I agree, if you cannot find a couple of hundred to foot a bill, and you do not have insurance you are in an extremely vulnerable situation. A save jar / penny jar will not cover the cost of a broken leg ( average of around £4,000 ) I myself own 5 dogs, of which 4 are insured. The only one without insurance is elderly and unable to be put under anaesthetic / sedation so our only options for him if something serious happened would be to euthanize him. When you have this many dogs you HAVE to either be A ) prepared or B ) Rich. You will now have to declare this incident to any future insurance companies which may impact your premiums.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi everyone thank you for your replies.
> 
> I have offered to pay the excess however I do not have the money on hand right now however the lady is insiting that I pay her asap. I am going away on Wednesday so I have no money to give and would only be able to give her the money once I return.
> 
> The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


She is most likely saying this to get you to pay up asap. TBH, in your position I would beg, borrow or steal to get the money to her and hopefully appease her. Dante has not shown aggression to people, so she is trying to scare you pay up I guess. It's a form of blackmail really. Don't worry @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming, but get the money to her asap...it can't be that much...can you draw out on a credit card or something?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Siskin said:


> My last retriever seemed to have a similar effect on other dogs. She would be just walking past another dog trying not to look at it as she was more of a nervous aggressive dog and all of a sudden the dog would have a go at her with othe owner apologising and saying 'he's not done that before'. It happened too many times for it not to be true and it unfortunately confirmed my dogs suspicion that other dogs were not to be trusted.
> I put it down to that she had poor body language.


I know someone with a lovely friendly entire staffie who has often been attacked by other male dogs for no reason.

He and Jack get along fine, but Jack is submissive anyway.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi everyone she text me this morning saying she has the bill to send and then I gave her my email address and text her an hour later no reply and have not heard from her since. I will find a way to get this money however I want to see this bill first to ensure she is not taking advantage of me and wanting more money than is required.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Sorry I meant to say I text her an hour later as I had not received the bill


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Sorry I meant to say I text her an hour later as I had not received the bill


Check your spam box, then double check with her that she got your email address right, you don't want this dragging on. Maybe she's just busy or getting her hair done or something.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

I have offered her £100 for now until I find the other £137 she wants the full


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming why are you offering to pay without speaking to Trevor Cooper first? If you are going to the trouble of speaking to him and waiting for him to ring you back then at least wait to listen to the advice he gives you.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

The excess will not be £237

They are all in 'logical' figures is ending in 0 or 5 

She may have added a voluntary excess to lower her premium so it could feasibly be over £200 (ie £130 excess + £100 voluntary excess)


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## MaggiesMom (Oct 13, 2016)

Yes I certainly wouldn't hand over the money without some sort of receipt or bill! Could be any made up figure otherwise.
I thought she wanted the excess? Now she wants half the bill? If she's insured, then the highest excess I saw when taking out my insurance was £150 so it's not making sense...?


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I have offered her £100 for now until I find the other £137 she wants the full


Tell her she can have her £100 now and £137 later or NOTHING now and all of it later. I'm a bit shocked you cant raise £237 SOMEHOW........


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Tell her she can have her £100 now and £137 later or NOTHING now and all of it later. I'm a bit shocked you cant raise £237 SOMEHOW........


Me too tbh - esp as it would appear there is no insurance on her own dog - personally I would expect anyone in that boat to have a savings account they put money aside for vet stuff etc

Even if you have insurance a lot of things don't even reach the excess / are just over so not worth claiming - so you need money for that


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> It is £237


WHAT :Bag that cannot be correct.


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## MaggiesMom (Oct 13, 2016)

I think the above just shows the importance of insurance. We don't know the OP's financial situation so it's not fair to comment.
If it were me, at this second in time, I'd have trouble getting cash together as I just happen to have had my car fixed, needed a new fridge and had my boiler serviced, so this has depleted my savings somewhat as it has come all at once! So I don't think we should be saying oh why can't you get together a couple of hundred quid, we don't know what is going on in their personal life right now.
But please don't give her any money until you have had advice and the actual bill, direct from the vets or a receipt that you can clear see is from a vets.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Well OP actually said that she did have money saved for vet bills, but it's been spent this week on her other dog who has been back and forth from the vets. So it's not like she didn't plan, just unlucky it's both dogs in the same week!


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Lilylass said:


> The excess will not be £237
> 
> They are all in 'logical' figures is ending in 0 or 5
> 
> She may have added a voluntary excess to lower her premium so it could feasibly be over £200 (ie £130 excess + £100 voluntary excess)


Some have a percentage of the bill as the excess. One company I got a quote from for Indie would only pay 50% of the claim for rotties once they reached 4 years of age. The amount the owner is asking for is 50% of the total bill.



MaggiesMom said:


> I think the above just shows the importance of insurance. We don't know the OP's financial situation so it's not fair to comment.
> If it were me, at this second in time, I'd have trouble getting cash together as I just happen to have had my car fixed, needed a new fridge and had my boiler serviced, so this has depleted my savings somewhat as it has come all at once! So I don't think we should be saying oh why can't you get together a couple of hundred quid, we don't know what is going on in their personal life right now.
> But please don't give her any money until you have had advice and the actual bill, direct from the vets or a receipt that you can clear see is from a vets.


The problem is the OP does not have insurance and would appear to be unable to raise the money (borrow it or use a credit card) - that is pretty worrying. I know not everyone can afford insurance particularly for the breeds like this where premiums are often high but public liability is a must. Without savings, access to money elsewhere or insurance its a bit of an unfair gamble to take on your dog not getting sick or injured.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

My worry now would be that even if you pay up (and £237 is double what I thought it would be) there is no guarantee that she will call it a day. Are you sure £237 is the excess? It seems a lot. The excess on my car is only £100 (or was).


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## Mirandashell (Jan 10, 2017)

Definitely don't pay anything until a) you have spoken to Trevor and b) you have proof of the cost


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I forgot about credit cards! Can't you just put it on a credit card? I only use mine for emergencies only.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

We had to pay excess plus a % of the total bill with our insurance policy. Could be that she's asking for.

Either way, if you're waiting for a call from Trevor Cooper I'd certainly hold off on paying anything until you've spoken to him. And would want proof of cost too.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> I know it could not have happened at worse time I have a tin full of "vet fees" which has just gone on my bulldog who injured her pad she slit it on glass whilst out walking . We were in and out of the vets the whole week as it kept swelling up and she needed to have it drained. cost me an arm and a leg so that tin has gone on her.


This is worrying.

You already owned two Bulldogs, then bought Dante and you were posting here not that long ago saying you wanted to get an Afghan Hound, yet you don't have your dogs insured and, apparently, don't have the means to cover any emergency Vet bill.

If you're not in a position to insure all three, I would certainly try to get cover for Dante.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't quite understand why people don't insure their dogs and instead put savings aside as this is exactly what can happen. One incident occurs and then all the money is gone.. and then another incident happens the same week or something. I'd certainly try and insure Dante


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Hanwombat said:


> I don't quite understand why people don't insure their dogs and instead put savings aside as this is exactly what can happen. One incident occurs and then all the money is gone.. and then another incident happens the same week or something. I'd certainly try and insure Dante


Well, my parents had a renewal for a 12 year old (very healthy) GR for over £150 a month. So they put money aside now. But they also have whatever money is needed for their pets.


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## JulieNoob (Oct 22, 2008)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> The lady said she is going to get the dangerous dogs act involved now as she stated that Dante has the ability to bite a child now. I am devestated I don't know what to do having never been in this situation before


Any dog with teeth has the ability to bite a child - this is irrelevent - she sounds a lunatic.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming: have you heard back from the other owner yet with a copy of the vet's bill?? And do we know for sure that her dog is insured?


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming aren't you a groomer and dog walker also?
Do you have insurance through your business that might apply here?

I'm not sure how that works, in the US most dogs are not insured for medical needs, just liability insurance but that goes through our homeowners insurance.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> I don't quite understand why people don't insure their dogs and instead put savings aside as this is exactly what can happen. One incident occurs and then all the money is gone.. and then another incident happens the same week or something. I'd certainly try and insure Dante


Spen isn't medically insured as I simply don't have the ridiculous amount I'm being quoted. Upward of £60 a month for a 5 year old Labrador.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

Sarah1983 said:


> Spen isn't medically insured as I simply don't have the ridiculous amount I'm being quoted. Upward of £60 a month for a 5 year old Labrador.


Wow that is ridiculous. I certainly haven't spent $780 a year on any of my dogs. And that includes Bates who has a hobby of finding ways to injure himself. 
But even that is good compared to the kind of insurance coverage we get in the US. It's just not worth it. We have an emergency credit card instead. But if it's a few hundred we can handle it without having to use the card. (As long as the kids manage to not rack up medical bills also!)


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Thank you everybody for your replies.

Trevor advised me not to make any more contact with this lady now he said let her pursue this herself if she wished. He said OK her dog come off worse but she openly admitted to me that her dog is wearing a head collar so that he can be grabbed quickly if required, so her dog is known to cause trouble. Trevor said she may take me to a small claims court which she would have to pay for herself and as long as I have caricature references from friends and family then I will be OK. He said do not pay out and her bringing children into the picture is uncalled for. He said she is trying to threaten me into paying for this.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Spen isn't medically insured as I simply don't have the ridiculous amount I'm being quoted. Upward of £60 a month for a 5 year old Labrador.


And not everyone has a credit card.


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## Sairy (Nov 22, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Whereas I was advised the opposite, that if my leashed dog injured a loose dog that ran up and had a go at him I could be held liable. Apparently it's not as black and white as on lead = under control therefore not at fault.


Fair enough. It is a difficult one because your dog might never have been aggressive before and then if someone has allowed their dog to run up to your on-lead dog then I would have thought they would be at fault, but I guess the law is pretty complex.


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> I simply don't have the ridiculous amount I'm being quoted.


I have cats insured but tbh I am totally gobsmacked at the amounts some of you dog-owners have to find...altho' I think I would try to find enough to pay 3rd party (saying which a friend of mine tried to get _third party only_ on a horse {just in case as there is a public footpath thro her grazing} and she could not find anyone who would do it). She tried about six places. I know people with_ one_ dog/horse who have a card/account which will, in an emergency, cough up about £8000 which would settle a heavy vet's bill. Saying that, if your horse was let out of its field by funsters in the dark of night and got on to the A3 and caused a pile-up causing mayhem and several deaths, £8000 would be a joke. Public liability for my mare is about £1,000,000. That is nothing these days really..,.sad but true.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

ouesi said:


> Wow that is ridiculous. I certainly haven't spent $780 a year on any of my dogs. And that includes Bates who has a hobby of finding ways to injure himself.
> But even that is good compared to the kind of insurance coverage we get in the US. It's just not worth it. We have an emergency credit card instead. But if it's a few hundred we can handle it without having to use the card. (As long as the kids manage to not rack up medical bills also!)


Colt costs £206 pcm and his excess is about to go up to 20% when he is 9 



Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you everybody for your replies.
> 
> Trevor advised me not to make any more contact with this lady now he said let her pursue this herself if she wished. He said OK her dog come off worse but she openly admitted to me that her dog is wearing a head collar so that he can be grabbed quickly if required, so her dog is known to cause trouble. Trevor said she may take me to a small claims court which she would have to pay for herself and as long as I have caricature references from friends and family then I will be OK. He said do not pay out and her bringing children into the picture is uncalled for. He said she is trying to threaten me into paying for this.


Always best to wait for expert advice. I'm glad he was able to help you and you don't have to struggle to find the money. Now have you sorted out some insurance even if its just accidental injury and public liability?


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

I am looking at accidental injury as we speak. My mind is now at ease that I have consulted Trevor I haven't slept over this. Thank you so much for everybody's advice x


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Hanwombat said:


> I don't quite understand why people don't insure their dogs and instead put savings aside as this is exactly what can happen. One incident occurs and then all the money is gone.. and then another incident happens the same week or something. I'd certainly try and insure Dante


It isn't always that simple!

Sometimes you do what you think is right and then the insurance company pulls out & you're left high and dry (not obviously in OPs case but certainly mine & a lot of other peoples)

Certainly Public Liability is a must for every dog owner ..... and personally I'd never be without a minimum of Accident & Injury which is around £4-9 / month (and incl PL)



Sarah1983 said:


> Spen isn't medically insured as I simply don't have the ridiculous amount I'm being quoted. Upward of £60 a month for a 5 year old Labrador.


When we were transferred to the insurance company who took over Axa's policies, they wanted £160 / month for Maisie (who was 7 at the time) with no claims ever  the cats were going up a similar amount (they wanted over £100 / month for both of them) which was completely unaffordable


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> Wow that is ridiculous. I certainly haven't spent $780 a year on any of my dogs. And that includes Bates who has a hobby of finding ways to injure himself.
> But even that is good compared to the kind of insurance coverage we get in the US. It's just not worth it. We have an emergency credit card instead. But if it's a few hundred we can handle it without having to use the card. (As long as the kids manage to not rack up medical bills also!)


I really do think the UK needs to sort out it's veterinary services and make them affordable - insurance is rare on the continent as well .... sure animals there manage to get treatment too!


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming is your business, the grooming and dog walking insured?


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

ouesi said:


> @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming is your business, the grooming and dog walking insured?


Hi Ouesi it is yes x


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Hi Ouesi it is yes x


I wonder if your business insurance covers you in this case?
Certainly for liability insurance it should, shouldn't it? (I don't know, I'm genuinely asking.)


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

ouesi said:


> I wonder if your business insurance covers you in this case?
> Certainly for liability insurance it should, shouldn't it? (I don't know, I'm genuinely asking.)


I'm pretty sure it only covers the dogs that that are under the care of the business ie not personally owned dogs - but worth checking the T&Cs closely


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

This really shows the importance of insurance if you don't have easy access to money. We don't have Zeus insured as his premiums were £155 now that's he's turned 8. However we have £11k in a savings account so if it came to it we could pay a large vet bill. If we didn't have this money saved we would NEVER have cancelled his insurance! 

And we made sure we continued 3rd party insurance. It's only £25 A YEAR from the dogs trust and means you're covered in case of damage to another person or their property. I can't believe someone would own a highly strung breed and not have this in place! 

You will struggle to insure him now this happened without bites being excluded. It really should have been done earlier!


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

MaggiesMom said:


> I think the above just shows the importance of insurance. We don't know the OP's financial situation so it's not fair to comment.
> If it were me, at this second in time, I'd have trouble getting cash together as I just happen to have had my car fixed, needed a new fridge and had my boiler serviced, so this has depleted my savings somewhat as it has come all at once! So I don't think we should be saying oh why can't you get together a couple of hundred quid, we don't know what is going on in their personal life right now.
> But please don't give her any money until you have had advice and the actual bill, direct from the vets or a receipt that you can clear see is from a vets.


We are not talking 20k tho. Most bank accounts offer £250 free overdraft. If it had been Dante hurt, and a vet insisted on up front payment- what then? Credit cards are pretty much instant online now. I just think better prep - insurance, much bigger disaster pot, ( I mean the bulldog had a split pad, not spinal surgery), emergency credit card, are all things that need very careful consideration.


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## Magyarmum (Apr 27, 2015)

Lilylass said:


> I really do think the UK needs to sort out it's veterinary services and make them affordable - insurance is rare on the continent as well .... sure animals there manage to get treatment too!


Like many owners in Hungary, I don't have insurance for either of my dogs. The vet we go to is expensive by Hungarian standards but treatment/vaccinations etc, is about a third of what it would cost in the UK. Like most things over here it's also "cash only", and if you can't afford to pay up front I think I'm correct in saying, many vets will allow you to pay over time. There have been times when Georgina's been so anxious to get out of the surgery my own vet has told me to pay him on the next visit, but maybe that's because he's known us for nearly 9 years!


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> He said she is trying to threaten me into paying for this.


@Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming That's what I thought, Sarah...it's a form of blackmail. However, you need to keep her reasonably placated for the time being. You are, I assume, in the dog-grooming business, and you do not want this woman bad-mouthing you so your regular clients get scared off and go elsewhere. So many people these days are completely hooked on FB and other social media and word gets around very quickly (as you know). This can be a wonderful thing, and I've seen so many dogs and cats reunited with their owners and thought how great a tool FB _can_ be...but it works both ways and you need to keep her placated as she is obviously not going to ''go quietly'' and you don't want her telling all and sundry on FB that you have an aggressive dog . I mean, just don't upset her if she gets to you, which she may. I know you are going away on Wednesday...hope you have a good time and don't let this spoil it...glad you spoke to Trevor...good start!


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2017)

I haven't read the whole thread, I stopped at page 4 and jumped here, but why, if you had an iffy dog, would you put a headcollar on to grab it by? Surely you want to keep yourself away from the sharp pointy end?


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

RottieMummy said:


> This really shows the importance of insurance if you don't have easy access to money. We don't have Zeus insured as his premiums were £155 now that's he's turned 8. However we have £11k in a savings account so if it came to it we could pay a large vet bill. If we didn't have this money saved we would NEVER have cancelled his insurance!


Lucky you. We had the choice between insurance and food on the table. Guess which won out...

@ouesi may well be good compared to US prices but it's still money we just do not have.

I worry a lot about something happening to Spen because there's no way we could pull out the money for something like a broken leg. My parents would help us out as much as possible and we have a credit card with a small limit for emergencies. The fact we spent 3 and a half years in Germany screws us big time as many won't accept a non UK address and we've only been back here 2 years, they generally want at least 5 years. My overdraft is maxed out thanks to us being entitled to no financial help due to living in Germany (even though it was as part of the British forces they class us as immigrants!) and us having to live off it while Calvin got a job. And then again when that job ended. I can't work due to Jack, we'd actually be worse off than we are with me staying home. Hubby works shifts so even working around his hours isn't an option.

So yeah, very easy to say you're stupid not to insure if you've not got access to crazy amounts of money. But where's that money for the insurance going to come from for people like us? We struggle as it is without finding another £60+ a month. I'm sure some would say we shouldn't have a dog in that case and perhaps there's argument for that. But Spen was here before times got hard, it's not like we rushed out and got a dog knowing we couldn't afford it. And I know for a fact I'm not the only one in this position.


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## RottieMummy (Dec 26, 2016)

Sarah1983 said:


> Lucky you. We had the choice between insurance and food on the table. Guess which won out...
> 
> @ouesi may well be good compared to US prices but it's still money we just do not have.
> 
> ...


3rd party insurance is £25 a year, with a Doberman it's essential! That's not huge amounts of money at all.

Of course situations change and people end up in financial difficulty but someone in that situation unable to afford insurance or vet bills surely wouldn't be adding more and more dogs to their home?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you Smokeybear I am such a worrier so I was panicking.
> 
> The lady has been keeping me updated on her dog and she said he went to the vets at 3pm and was operated on 9:30pm and had to take a loan out to pay the excess before I am able to give her the money. I have asked for an itemised bill x


I would wonder why the dog went in during working hours and was operated on during emergency hours. Sounds dodgy to me. Also I am fairly sure no vet would leave over 6 hours before suturing as it would often be too late to do it.



Calvine said:


> I have cats insured but tbh I am totally gobsmacked at the amounts some of you dog-owners have to find...altho' I think I would try to find enough to pay 3rd party (saying which a friend of mine tried to get _third party only_ on a horse {just in case as there is a public footpath thro her grazing} and she could not find anyone who would do it). She tried about six places. I know people with_ one_ dog/horse who have a card/account which will, in an emergency, cough up about £8000 which would settle a heavy vet's bill. Saying that, if your horse was let out of its field by funsters in the dark of night and got on to the A3 and caused a pile-up causing mayhem and several deaths, £8000 would be a joke. Public liability for my mare is about £1,000,000. That is nothing these days really..,.sad but true.


BHS gold membership is £50 and gives good public liability cover for any horse you own. Dogs can be insured for third party through dogs trust very cheaply.

Personally I would never insure a dog for vets fees if it cost more than £250 a YEAR. If you are wealthy enough to be paying out over £100 a month you should be able to raise the money for the vets bills and pay yourself back fairly quickly.


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## Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming (Jul 13, 2015)

Blitz said:


> I would wonder why the dog went in during working hours and was operated on during emergency hours. Sounds dodgy to me. Also I am fairly sure no vet would leave over 6 hours before suturing as it would often be too late to do it.


This is what is even making me questions "did the lady even go to the vets at all!?" I have the messages to say when she got to the vets and when he got operated on 6 hours later? It just does not seem right


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## MaggiesMom (Oct 13, 2016)

This is what I mean, insurance is invaluable, it's a lesson learned. Hopefully anyone else reading this who doesn't have insurance (or a huge amount of savings!)will also take something from this persons unfortunate experience.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Sarah1983 said:


> Lucky you. We had the choice between insurance and food on the table. Guess which won out...
> 
> @ouesi may well be good compared to US prices but it's still money we just do not have.
> 
> ...


As mentioned above - Accident & Injury ranges from £4 / month (£2.5k cover & £130 excess on that policy) to just around £7 / month (£3k cover & £65 excess)

That should cover most accidents / injuries & certainly a broken leg so def worth having if full insurance isn't an option


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> This is what is even making me questions "did the lady even go to the vets at all!?" I have the messages to say when she got to the vets and when he got operated on 6 hours later? It just does not seem right


I would find it difficult to believe that anyone would leave such a wound on a dog's face untreated.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> This is what is even making me questions "did the lady even go to the vets at all!?" I have the messages to say when she got to the vets and when he got operated on 6 hours later? It just does not seem right





Sweety said:


> I would find it difficult to believe that anyone would leave such a wound on a dog's face untreated.


It was on a Sunday though so out of hours, perhaps there was only one vet on and they were already dealing with a more significant case or perhaps the dog had eaten not that long before and they wanted to wait until it had an empty stomach.


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## Rafa (Jun 18, 2012)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> It was on a Sunday though so out of hours, perhaps there was only one vet on and they were already dealing with a more significant case or perhaps the dog had eaten not that long before and they wanted to wait until it had an empty stomach.


No. 

I was responding to the OP questioning whether the dog even went to the Vet at all.

I understand why there could have been delay at the Vet's.


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Sweety said:


> No.
> 
> I was responding to the OP questioning whether the dog even went to the Vet at all.
> 
> I understand why there could have been delay at the Vet's.


Oh I see - sorry I thought you meant why would they leave it for 6 hours before operating


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## PetsBestBuddy (Oct 17, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear this happened @Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming.
The other woman knew her dog can be iffy with other dogs, so wtf was she playing at by having it off lead before you even met up ? She knew you were meeting up at that time and place and that neither dog knew each other, so why was her already dog off lead ? On knowing that she was meeting a strange dog for a first walk together, and knowing that her dog has shown aggression before, she should have it on lead and a muzzle on it.
The right way to introduce strange dogs to each other is to walk both dogs on neutral territory, both on lead and walk them parallel to each other, while both owners are watching both dogs for any signs of either dog being uncomfortable and being ready to move the dogs further apart if needed.
I'm glad to hear you had advice from Trevor Cooper because it sounds like the woman was pushing her luck with regards to trying to bully you into paying half of her full vet bill.
Re the £279 excess, that doesn't sound right at all. The excess for third party liability (£3,000,000,000 cover) on my dogs' insurance is £250. The vet fees excess is £150 plus 10% of the cost of treatment (voluntary excess) for my 13 1/2 year old Staffie and £75 plus 10% voluntary excess for my 18 month old Staffie x Lab. Both are on More Than Premier Cover with £12,000/year vet fees cover. The vet fees excess on this policy is only payable once per year, so if I had to claim for treatment 2 or more conditions/injuries, the excess only applies to the first claim.
The difference in the excess for vet fees is because my old girl is over 9 years old. Her monthly premium is £80.31 and my young dog's monthly premium is £17.10.
Please take out insurance for your dog, even if it is just a basic policy because you never know if or when you might need it. It cost approx £1,500 in vet fees for surgery when my old girl fell and dislocated her patella when she was 2. The insurer paid the orthopaedic vet directly.


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

rottiepointerhouse said:


> It was on a Sunday though so out of hours, perhaps there was only one vet on and they were already dealing with a more significant case or perhaps the dog had eaten not that long before and they wanted to wait until it had an empty stomach.


I did not realise it was a Sunday. That is more possible but still seems odd.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Muttly said:


> Well, my parents had a renewal for a 12 year old (very healthy) GR for over £150 a month. So they put money aside now. But they also have whatever money is needed for their pets.


A older dog is a little different though, generally insurers put their renewal up loads as they are older, though I can understand not having insurance with an older dog as sometimes if something bad happens I guess you weigh up what to do due to the dogs age.


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## Phoenix Rising (Jan 25, 2016)

CFC said:


> Seriously?
> Dog A went for Dog B and pinned him down.
> Dog B then bit Dog A.
> 
> Sorry I wouldn't be paying Dog A's vet bill. Let her take you to the small claims court if she thinks she has a chance, I cannot see that in this situation a judgement would be given against you.


Given that the person appears to have a K9 grooming business I'd be more worried about what the other woman was saying on social media given the first thing most people do is put it on Facebook!. I assume if she has a grooming service she is well known in her area by other dog owners. Personally I'd be more worried about people stopping using my business cos they believed I had an aggressive dog I had no idea how to control, as chatter on FB etc will cause more damage than whether she has to chase you up in claims court for the money, (just look at what happened from a short clip form the movie " A Dog's Purpose') assuming she is reporting every step of it on her FB page too along the way!

Most excesses are under £100 so it's not much in the grand scheme of things.


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

With most insurance companies you still need the cash up front then claim it back from the company. I am sure a 3rd party liability claim against you would take longer as the insurance companies fight out who was in the wrong.

Even having insurance is not a guarantee they will pay your bills - like all companies, they will try to find a way of not paying. I only have my pup insured, I usually do it for the first few years only when they are liable to do silly things.

In the UK it is getting to the stage where normal working people will be priced out of pet ownership. If your rich you can afford it, if your on certain benefits the PDSA and RSPCA will help you. When I get a new dog I have to factor in the cost of neutering, but my neighbours could afford to buy pups and then brag about how they have been neutered free or cheap. Sometimes I wonder what is the point of working when certain people get everything free


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Hanwombat said:


> A older dog is a little different though, generally insurers put their renewal up loads as they are older, though I can understand not having insurance with an older dog as sometimes if something bad happens I guess you weigh up what to do due to the dogs age.


Although.....not long after they cancelled the insurance she had a tummy bug and a vets bill of £200+ (can't remember exact amount) :Facepalm
Vet wanted to X-Ray her for another £200 but Mum and Dad said "Can we just wait and see how she does on the meds given for at least a day or 2". She was fine. Sometimes the vets can be a bit naughty.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Muttly said:


> Although.....not long after they cancelled the insurance she had a tummy bug and a vets bill of £200+ (can't remember exact amount) :Facepalm
> Vet wanted to X-Ray her for another £200 but Mum and Dad said "Can we just wait and see how she does on the meds given for at least a day or 2". She was fine. Sometimes the vets can be a bit naughty.


I know what you mean!! Last year.. my cat Bear wasn't very well. You know when he isn't well as he isn't attacking you  anyways I took him to the vets and they took his temperature and it was quite high, so they decided to keep him in. The following day they took bloods.. gave him xrays, ultrasound! flipping EVERYTHING and they couldn't find a problem! So I took him home with some antiobiotics and within a day or so he was absolutely back to his normal angry self :Facepalm Thank goodness for insurance as it came to nearly £500 !! and I somewhat think couldn't they have tried the Metacam firstly? I mean I know they could have found something.. but I would have been a little unhappy if say I didn't have insurance and they'd done all those tests.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

Hanwombat said:


> I know what you mean!! Last year.. my cat Bear wasn't very well. You know when he isn't well as he isn't attacking you  anyways I took him to the vets and they took his temperature and it was quite high, so they decided to keep him in. The following day they took bloods.. gave him xrays, ultrasound! flipping EVERYTHING and they couldn't find a problem! So I took him home with some antiobiotics and within a day or so he was absolutely back to his normal angry self :Facepalm Thank goodness for insurance as it came to nearly £500 !! and I somewhat think couldn't they have tried the Metacam firstly? I mean I know they could have found something.. but I would have been a little unhappy if say I didn't have insurance and they'd done all those tests.


Exactly, they should really try the Antibiotics first shouldn't they. I would be miffed at putting an already sick animal through all that treatment, unless they realy do suspect something.
Especially a sick 12 year old being sedated for X-Ray that's not needed


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Having trawled through the whole thread, I am happy to see you have had some solid legal advice from Trevor Cooper. Considering the circumstances under which the other lady's dog got injured (ie he showed aggression first, she knew he could be aggressive etc) then I would be reluctant to pay half the vet bill, but may have felt paying the excess was fair. However, from the amount she is seeking from you, it would appear all is not as it seems - and she is trying to get you to pay half of the total bill, which I feel is unfair.

As others have said, it was rather naive to meet up with someone you didn't know with a same sex, same breed, large dog and allow them to meet off lead immediately. I am sure this is a mistake you won't make again.

Please look into the Dogs Trust membership - they offer 

3rd party public liability insurance for your dog - up to £1,000,000 per claim if your dog causes damage or injury to another person, their property or pets (an excess of £200 applies for the UK and £500 in the Republic of Ireland).
for only £25 a year - and that covers ALL dogs owned by you.

Between myself and hubby, we own 12 dogs, most of which are working dogs and so insurance is out of the question. I have the Dogs Trust membership and also have a credit card I have never used, but it is there for any emergencies. I also have an emergency savings account for any large bills that might arise.

From here on in, train Dante to focus on you (look up articles/youtube vids on building focus) and join a good dog training club - it would be especially useful if the trainers had experience with large, high drive dogs. Rather than considering agility (which is a high arousal activity) seek out some good scentwork classes and, as someone else mentioned, IPO classes where you can train Dante up for his BH 
http://www.schutzhund-training.net/bh.html

He is a gorgeous looking dog (I also like the cropped/docked look - but wish it could be achieved without a knife) and sounds as though he means the world to you, so do your best by him. Train him to be an ambassador for the breed, rather than confirming many people's fears and prejudices.

Good luck.


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## Moobli (Feb 20, 2012)

Here is the link to the Dogs Trust membership - so no excuses 

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/get-involved/membership/


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## rottiepointerhouse (Feb 9, 2014)

Phoenix Rising said:


> Given that the person appears to have a K9 grooming business I'd be more worried about what the other woman was saying on social media given the first thing most people do is put it on Facebook!. I assume if she has a grooming service she is well known in her area by other dog owners. Personally I'd be more worried about people stopping using my business cos they believed I had an aggressive dog I had no idea how to control, as chatter on FB etc will cause more damage than whether she has to chase you up in claims court for the money, (just look at what happened from a short clip form the movie " A Dog's Purpose') assuming she is reporting every step of it on her FB page too along the way!
> 
> Most excesses are under £100 so it's not much in the grand scheme of things.


Firstly she has been advised by Trevor Cooper not to pay anything, secondly I don't think many people would be put off of using a dog grooming business because the owner's dog once had a scrap with another dog (who started it) - I'm sure the OP doesn't throw Dante in with the grooming dogs to see what happens. Thirdly the excess being asked for is £237 which is 50% of the total bill in this instance.



kirksandallchins said:


> With most insurance companies you still need the cash up front then claim it back from the company. I am sure a 3rd party liability claim against you would take longer as the insurance companies fight out who was in the wrong.
> 
> Even having insurance is not a guarantee they will pay your bills - like all companies, they will try to find a way of not paying. I only have my pup insured, I usually do it for the first few years only when they are liable to do silly things.
> 
> In the UK it is getting to the stage where normal working people will be priced out of pet ownership. If your rich you can afford it, if your on certain benefits the PDSA and RSPCA will help you. When I get a new dog I have to factor in the cost of neutering, but my neighbours could afford to buy pups and then brag about how they have been neutered free or cheap. Sometimes I wonder what is the point of working when certain people get everything free


Depends on the insurance company, if you go with a reputable one like petplan most vets accept direct payments from them. Again reputable insurance companies do pay the bills unless you are trying to pull a fast one like claiming for a pre existing condition. I've never had one try to wriggle out of paying any claims I've made and I've made several significant claims in recent years. There are lots of things the PDSA/RSPCA don't cover so personally I would not like to be in the position of having to rely on them but thank goodness they are there as a fall back for people who have no choice.


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Moobli said:


> Here is the link to the Dogs Trust membership - so no excuses
> 
> https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/get-involved/membership/


Just wondered, does it ask in the small print about previous aggression because that could probably make it useless for the OP for third party liability purposes anyway?


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Muttly said:


> Although.....not long after they cancelled the insurance she had a tummy bug and a vets bill of £200+ (can't remember exact amount) :Facepalm
> Vet wanted to X-Ray her for another £200 but Mum and Dad said "Can we just wait and see how she does on the meds given for at least a day or 2". She was fine. Sometimes the vets can be a bit naughty.


I think you have a good point. The reason I have never had big vets bills is because I refuse the offer of expensive treatment. Whether insured or not as why would I put my dog through invasive procedures just because they exist. I dont think the vets are naughty as such, they just do not think about the money aspect sometimes and go with their training. Usually the more experienced vets are more laid back and do not jump in with both feet. When I was working as a vet nurse I often had a quiet word with a new vet and pointed out the easy and cheap route that the older vets would use. I remember one with one of my own dogs being recommended by a young vet that her foot was xrayed. I felt it was totally unnecessary so asked for a second opinion from an older vet - who agreed with me 100 percent. The young vet is now the older more conservative vet who I would rely on in a similar situation. I have only once given in to a young vet, mainly because I had insurance and it was only a lab test so not affecting my dog. That evening I got a phone call from an older vet asking if I had really wanted it done!


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## StormyThai (Sep 11, 2013)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> This is what is even making me questions "did the lady even go to the vets at all!?"


I'm sorry but this statement is ridiculous. You saw the wound that your dog caused...there is no way that the owner did not go to the vets and quite frankly considering where the wound is you are lucky that it came under £500 for the whole bill on a Sunday.

Trevor has given you advice (I would still pay but that is me) so I would follow that, but to question if the owner of the other dog did go to the vets does not put you in good light IMO

FWIW I do think the owner was trying it on with threatening legal action...however, considering the damage her dog received I think she is allowed a bit of OTT behaviour herself


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

Sarah Cain9 Dog Grooming said:


> Thank you everybody for your replies.
> 
> Trevor advised me not to make any more contact with this lady now he said let her pursue this herself if she wished. He said OK her dog come off worse but she openly admitted to me that her dog is wearing a head collar so that he can be grabbed quickly if required, so her dog is known to cause trouble. Trevor said she may take me to a small claims court which she would have to pay for herself and as long as I have caricature references from friends and family then I will be OK. He said do not pay out and her bringing children into the picture is uncalled for. He said she is trying to threaten me into paying for this.


This is exactly what I would expect him to say which is why I said to not pay her in my first post and referred you to Trevor in my second post.

As for character references, I would remind you that EVERYTHING is legally disclosable in the event of court cases including posts on social media.

You have no idea who is taking screen shots of your posts and to whom those posts may be sent when writing about incidents, so be warned.

I also hope that you will take advantage of 3rd party liability insurance via the Dogs Trust which I posted a link to in my second post.

In addition the £60 per year it costs to become a Doglaw SOS member is,I believe, very good value for money in the event of such situations http://www.doglawsos.co.uk/shop/doglaw-sos/


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> Spen isn't medically insured as I simply don't have the ridiculous amount I'm being quoted. Upward of £60 a month for a 5 year old Labrador.


Thats crazy amount of monies for a Labrador? :Arghh:Sorry I pay £32 a month for Bigby and £49 a month for Bear and Io combined.


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> Thats crazy amount of monies for a Labrador? :Arghh:Sorry I pay £32 a month for Bigby and £49 a month for Bear and Io combined.


It's a freaking joke. I could understand if he were a senior I suppose but he's only 5! No pre existing conditions or anything. Just really can't afford £60 or more a month and it's only going to go up each year  More Than, Pet Plan and a few others have quoted me around the £60 a month mark.

Still looking around to see if there's something affordable that's more than just accident and injury and public liability but it's a mine field out there to be honest. The more affordable ones like E&L I've heard some awful things about.


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## PetsBestBuddy (Oct 17, 2013)

kirksandallchins said:


> With most insurance companies you still need the cash up front then claim it back from the company. I am sure a 3rd party liability claim against you would take longer as the insurance companies fight out who was in the wrong.
> 
> Even having insurance is not a guarantee they will pay your bills - like all companies, they will try to find a way of not paying. I only have my pup insured, I usually do it for the first few years only when they are liable to do silly things.
> 
> *In the UK it is getting to the stage where normal working people will be priced out of pet ownership. If your rich you can afford it, if your on certain benefits the PDSA and RSPCA will help you. When I get a new dog I have to factor in the cost of neutering, but my neighbours could afford to buy pups and then brag about how they have been neutered free or cheap. Sometimes I wonder what is the point of working when certain people get everything free*


*
*
I feel this (BIB) is a bit judgemental. I know I shouldn't take it personally, but comments like this are very common both on internet forums and in real life. It does get to me because it makes me, and others in a similar position, feel like my entire life and everything I do is being constantly judged. It shouldn't...but it does.
I wish I could go back to work, but I can't. I was medically retired a few years ago as I have osteoarthritis in my spine and both SI joints and degenerative disc disease. I stayed in my full time job for as long as it was physically possible, until the pain caused by travelling there and back and working an 8 hour shift became unbearable. I now have rheumatoid arthritis too. I have to take a s$%£ load of strong medication now just to have some kind of "normal" life
Now I'm one of those "certain people" on "certain benefits" who could use the PDSA vet if I needed to (I don't).
My older dog is trained to assist me and my young dog is currently being trained to do the same.
I'd swap my arthritis for being fully fit and healthy again in a heartbeat if I could. Then I'd be able to work and pay for my dogs' needs with my own money again, instead of "getting everything for free"...


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> It's a freaking joke. I could understand if he were a senior I suppose but he's only 5! No pre existing conditions or anything. Just really can't afford £60 or more a month and it's only going to go up each year  More Than, Pet Plan and a few others have quoted me around the £60 a month mark.
> 
> Still looking around to see if there's something affordable that's more than just accident and injury and public liability but it's a mine field out there to be honest. The more affordable ones like E&L I've heard some awful things about.


I just can't believe they quoted that for a Labrador, who as you say isn't a senior and no existing conditions! I can only think because obviously some labradors can get HD, cancer etc so they've based it off that? Bigby was pretty cheap but then his breed isn't all too known and Io and Bear are a mongrel and moggie.

Thats just a joke


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> I just can't believe they quoted that for a Labrador, who as you say isn't a senior and no existing conditions! I can only think because obviously some labradors can get HD, cancer etc so they've based it off that? Bigby was pretty cheap but then his breed isn't all too known and Io and Bear are a mongrel and moggie.
> 
> Thats just a joke


That's all I can think too. I suppose they see a lot of Flabradors with weight related issues too which probably won't help. Rupert at 9 years old only cost me £35 a month to insure.

Looking at a comparison site now there are quite a few affordable ones offering lifetime cover. Fairly low limit (some as low as £500 a year for all vet bills!) but better than nothing. The site says More Than would insure for £25 a month but when I checked with them it was over double that so will have to double check.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Sarah1983 said:


> That's all I can think too. I suppose they see a lot of Flabradors with weight related issues too which probably won't help. Rupert at 9 years old only cost me £35 a month to insure.
> 
> Looking at a comparison site now there are quite a few affordable ones offering lifetime cover. Fairly low limit (some as low as £500 a year for all vet bills!) but better than nothing. The site says More Than would insure for £25 a month but when I checked with them it was over double that so will have to double check.


Hope you manage to find something!


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hanwombat said:


> Hope you manage to find something!


Me too. Just don't want to be paying out each month only to find insurance won't pay out if anything does happen. Pet Plan would have been my choice despite the fact nobody there seems to know what their policies actually are (I have it in writing they do not cover armed forces in Germany as do several others, others have it in writing that they do!) but can't afford them.


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## kimthecat (Aug 11, 2009)

Im with pet plan . Ive never claimed but their premuims seem to go up every year .


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## smokeybear (Oct 19, 2011)

kimthecat said:


> Im with pet plan . Ive never claimed but their premuims seem to go up every year .


Most things get more expensive year on year, however it is the jump in some increases that is of concern. I have been with petplan for over 20 years over several dogs and despite making two huge (>£5k claims) for two separate dogs their premia did not increase significantly.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

smokeybear said:


> Most things get more expensive year on year, however it is the jump in some increases that is of concern. I have been with petplan for over 20 years over several dogs and despite making two huge (>£5k claims) for two separate dogs their premia did not increase significantly.


Same here, I've probably claimed around £14k over the past 5 years with Pet Plan & have actually been pleasantly surprised at how little my premiums increased


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

kirksandallchins said:


> With most insurance companies you still need the cash up front then claim it back from the company. I am sure a 3rd party liability claim against you would take longer as the insurance companies fight out who was in the wrong.
> 
> Even having insurance is not a guarantee they will pay your bills - like all companies, they will try to find a way of not paying. I only have my pup insured, I usually do it for the first few years only when they are liable to do silly things.
> 
> In the UK it is getting to the stage where normal working people will be priced out of pet ownership. If your rich you can afford it, if your on certain benefits the PDSA and RSPCA will help you. When I get a new dog I have to factor in the cost of neutering, but my neighbours could afford to buy pups and then brag about how they have been neutered free or cheap. Sometimes I wonder what is the point of working when certain people get everything free


I'm not rich, far from it! I insure Muttly and I have credit cards and savings. So if they don't pay out, I can.

Also let's not forget, pet ownership is a privilege, not a right.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Lurcherlad said:


> Just wondered, does it ask in the small print about previous aggression because that could probably make it useless for the OP for third party liability purposes anyway?


Any dog belonging to you is covered but I would doubt that it would be paid out on if you hadn't disclosed previous incidents

I would very much doubt that the OP will get PI cover now  one.reason it's vital people do it when they get their dogs if they don't have other insurance


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## Sarah1983 (Nov 2, 2011)

smokeybear said:


> Most things get more expensive year on year, however it is the jump in some increases that is of concern. I have been with petplan for over 20 years over several dogs and despite making two huge (>£5k claims) for two separate dogs their premia did not increase significantly.


Whereas Spens went from £32 a month to just under £60 a month with no claims made at all and a dog who is only 5 years old. Which makes absolutely no sense to me but apparently was right when I called to question it.


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## Team_Trouble (Apr 11, 2016)

I'd love to get a sister for Oliver, he loves canine company, but the main reason I'm not in a position to at the moment is I can only afford to insure one dog.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

KatieandOliver said:


> I'd love to get a sister for Oliver, he loves canine company, but the main reason I'm not in a position to at the moment is I can only afford to insure one dog.


Which is why the UK vet industry needst to be sorted out - it shouldn't be the Reason people can't afford pets


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## Gemmaa (Jul 19, 2009)

Sarah1983 said:


> It's a freaking joke. I could understand if he were a senior I suppose but he's only 5! No pre existing conditions or anything. Just really can't afford £60 or more a month and it's only going to go up each year  More Than, Pet Plan and a few others have quoted me around the £60 a month mark.
> 
> Still looking around to see if there's something affordable that's more than just accident and injury and public liability but it's a mine field out there to be honest. *The more affordable ones like E&L I've heard some awful things about*.


We were with E&L years ago, they did pay out a £1000 bill in full....but they conveniently couldn't find the claim form for a while. Then it just miraculously appeared when we started getting firmer with them


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

I think generally with Petplan, mine go up about £4 a year. I made a claim last year with Bear though and I have a ongoing claim with Bigby so will be interesting to see the renewal in July and November.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Muttly said:


> Although.....not long after they cancelled the insurance she had a tummy bug and a vets bill of £200+ (can't remember exact amount) :Facepalm
> Vet wanted to X-Ray her for another £200 but Mum and Dad said "Can we just wait and see how she does on the meds given for at least a day or 2". She was fine. Sometimes the vets can be a bit naughty.


Vets live in fear of missing a bowel obstruction in vomiting dogs.



Hanwombat said:


> I know what you mean!! Last year.. my cat Bear wasn't very well. You know when he isn't well as he isn't attacking you  anyways I took him to the vets and they took his temperature and it was quite high, so they decided to keep him in. The following day they took bloods.. gave him xrays, ultrasound! flipping EVERYTHING and they couldn't find a problem! So I took him home with some antiobiotics and within a day or so he was absolutely back to his normal angry self :Facepalm Thank goodness for insurance as it came to nearly £500 !! and I somewhat think couldn't they have tried the Metacam firstly? I mean I know they could have found something.. but I would have been a little unhappy if say I didn't have insurance and they'd done all those tests.


How old is Bear? I can understand checking bloodwork prior to using Metacam in a kitty.


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## Hanwombat (Sep 5, 2013)

Ceiling Kitty said:


> Vets live in fear of missing a bowel obstruction in vomiting dogs.
> 
> How old is Bear? I can understand checking bloodwork prior to using Metacam in a kitty.


He is 6


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## Picklelily (Jan 2, 2013)

Pickle is the first dog I have insured with Pet plan having heard all the good reports from them however I'm now not sure that I would use them again. My previous insurer paid out but was slow to pay. 5 years ago it was costing me £35 a month to insure an 11-year-old pedigree rough collie who had arthritis claims and had previous surgery for malignant melanoma. The only reason we changed for Pickle was slow payment and the fact that I had hears such good things about pet plan.

I'm now paying pet plan £34 a month for a 5-year-old mini Schnauzer cross we have never had a claim, she has skin and ear issues excluded as the state of her ears when we got her meant she had an ear infection. I can't move her insurance as she had a limp 2 years ago that resolved 12 hours after I saw the vet, it probably means any other company would also exclude muscular skeletal problems.


To the original person on this thread can I just say well done for taking advice and responding with maturity to all the comments. Yes, you made a mistake initially meeting the other owner and were punished with an unexpected dog fight. Most of us have made mistakes yet not had such a tough life lesson. I hope that your future with Dante is now bright and trouble free, you have obviously learnt a very tough lesson.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Muttly said:


> Although.....not long after they cancelled the insurance she had a tummy bug and a vets bill of £200+ (can't remember exact amount) :Facepalm
> Vet wanted to X-Ray her for another £200 but Mum and Dad said "Can we just wait and see how she does on the meds given for at least a day or 2". She was fine. Sometimes the vets can be a bit naughty.


Or dog could have been even more sick, ( or dead) with something stuck somewhere, then it would have been the vets fault for not insisting on x rays.........


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but regarding insurance if you have home insurance (Which I really really hope you do..) then that often comes with legal protection (It is sometimes an add-on but a lot include as standard).

It can help cover any potential legal costs that may arise from various situations. Its a valuable addition to home insurance policy and can be used for a variety of reasons such as this, or even a dispute with a tradesman.

Its worth noting I don't think this situation will arise with legal action or at least any that would get anywhere but I think it valuable information to share none the less.


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## Lilylass (Sep 13, 2012)

Lexiedhb said:


> Or dog could have been even more sick, ( or dead) with something stuck somewhere, then it would have been the vets fault for not insisting on x rays.........


Equally - having asked for a breakdown of meds / what they do when presented with a bill for well over £200 for a simple tummy upset (and this was about 7 years ago so hate to think how much it would be now) and asking what 4 tablets to be given in 2 consecutive meals were / would do considering they cost nearly £100 by themselves - and being replied to (not verbatam due to how long ago it was but pretty close) - oh, forgot you're not insured, they're an extra tablet that can help settle it - however, the others should work just as well if you don't take them / it won't do any harm to leave them a couple of days and see if the others work first .... and guess what - the first lot did ....

If it's something essential then I'm happy to get it - but I don't like being ripped off - all these 'extras' end up costing everyone as the price of insurance premiums will keep rising to cover them.


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## Lexiedhb (Jun 9, 2011)

Lilylass said:


> Equally - having asked for a breakdown of meds / what they do when presented with a bill for well over £200 for a simple tummy upset (and this was about 7 years ago so hate to think how much it would be now) and asking what 4 tablets to be given in 2 consecutive meals were / would do considering they cost nearly £100 by themselves - and being replied to (not verbatam due to how long ago it was but pretty close) - oh, forgot you're not insured, they're an extra tablet that can help settle it - however, the others should work just as well if you don't take them / it won't do any harm to leave them a couple of days and see if the others work first .... and guess what - the first lot did ....
> 
> If it's something essential then I'm happy to get it - but I don't like being ripped off - all these 'extras' end up costing everyone as the price of insurance premiums will keep rising to cover them.


Being aware of the treatment being suggested to you is one thing, - cant say i have ever walked out of a vets and not known exactly what each medicine was for- but in muttlys case it could have easily gone the other way.


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## Muttly (Oct 1, 2014)

I guess so, but she was pooing and being sick, so could there still be a possible blockage in that case?

Don;t get me wrong they are happy with their vet, but just said wait on this and as it turns out, it wasn;t needed.
If the vet said, we must do an X-Ray now, they would have done. They would pay anything and any amount neccessary for their dogs (and have done).


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## Blitz (Feb 12, 2009)

Muttly said:


> I guess so, but she was pooing and being sick, so could there still be a possible blockage in that case?
> 
> Don;t get me wrong they are happy with their vet, but just said wait on this and as it turns out, it wasn;t needed.
> If the vet said, we must do an X-Ray now, they would have done. They would pay anything and any amount neccessary for their dogs (and have done).


I think your parents were quite correct with their decision. I seem to remember a post recently about a dog who was getting sicker and sicker and sounded like it had a foreign body and the vet just sent them home and it took days before the vet did anything proactive. I think some vets are far too laid back and others are far too quick to jump in with both feet. Nothing wrong with a vet advising what is available but they should not push for expensive diagnostics as the first port of call with a simple upset stomach.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Muttly said:


> I guess so, but she was pooing and being sick, so could there still be a possible blockage in that case?


Yep, I've seen plenty.


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## WillowT (Mar 21, 2015)

Don't beat yourself up over it. But learn from it. If you didn't feel bad at all about it then that would be worrying! I'm sure you will learn from this and find a way to progress with your dog.


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