# Diabetes Cat Food



## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

My 5 year old Cat has been diagnosed with Diabetes. Currently he is on Caninsulin 0.5 twice daily , 6am , 6pm.


My vet has recommended that he switches food to Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Feline Diabetic DS 46.


Research has showed that Dry food is worse type of food for my cat and also the Carb content is at around 25/26%. Ideally a number of 10% or lower. I have been informed that the special diet food above has different types of carbs which aid his glucose levels. Just seems vet says 1 thing and online another... i trust my vet thou just confuses me all this information i read. 


Can you confirm that my cat should avoid dry food and the “Diabetic Royal Canin” for a “Wet food” which contains 10% or less carbs?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Absolutely you should avoid ANY dry food, especially that high carb "prescription" crap.( "different kind of carbs", good grief what a load of crap, who told you that one?)

Can you get Fancy Feast Classics? (classics only) It is a low carb food recommended by the felinediabetes.com website

However, because your cat is taking insulin you have to be very careful. With a low carb food his insulin needs will be different.

I recommend you start by reading what Dr Pierson has to say about it here:

_However, if your cat is receiving insulin and you switch to a low carb diet - without lowering the insulin dosage - you will be putting your cat at significant risk for a hypoglycemic crisis. This is discussed under the STOP sign section below._

http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

And spend some time here:

www.felinediabetes.com.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Its very confusing i have read all the articles and do agree, The vet however is saying that this prescription diet has different forms of carbs which is good for slow releasing and is best for him to get him stable. 

I have asked her 3/4 times now and stated wet food and 10% carbs or less and she still states the recommended one is best. Head is confused as she has been so good so far and i do trust her. 

HAs anyone tried the specific diet i mention above?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Vets are practically brainwashed in vet school by those food companies. Look at the ingredients in that food. Is that what any cat should eat? Let alone a diabetic cat. I would be looking for another vet, if the vet is not willing to open her mind a little and realize that you are not going to feed your cat that disgusting junk *which will keep him insulin dependent for the rest of his life. (which means a continual source of income for your vet)*

Those foods are trash. Find another vet.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

I dont think i can get that food i am in the UK. Any links for UK ? thank you so much


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Just look for canned pate foods low in carbs. Which means you want foods that contain no grains, avoid fruits and veg too which are high in sugar. Meat and vitamins/minerals. I don't know anything about the foods in the UK but plenty of members here do.

Raw feeding is also an option.

Remember though, when reducing the carb load the insulin will need to be reduced too. That's why you need a supportive vet.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

understood thanks, his insulin is on lowest dose already and that is 0.5 using the VETPEN.

I may consider the shipement from US of that food as although will cost a lot seems to be good!


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

http://www.petforums.co.uk/attachments/10850834_10152915491784134_493978310_n-jpg.149964/

Cat also has allergies, i posted an image. Any suggestions of UK best food for him ?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Wet food.

High protein and very low carb (less than 7% if possible).

Avoid Whiskas and the like because they contain a lot of sugar.


The allergies complicate things. Doe he actually have a food intolerance? Personally I don't buy into blood tests for food allergy, they're unreliable IMO. Does he develop skin problems related to his diet in real life?


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Wet food.
> 
> High protein and very low carb (less than 7% if possible).
> 
> ...


No he doesnt show any skin problems, he saw a specialist also and all clear, His symptoms would be scratching around his ears / head and shaking his head. Almost like there is a flea in his ear. He was having steroid injections to control allergies and switching food to prescrption which was hills C/d as this didnt have anything he was allergic to and was on the "approved" list the specialist said he could eat along with this new Royal Canin the vet is suggesting. Now diabetic he is coming off steroids...


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> Its very confusing i have read all the articles and do agree, The vet however is saying that this prescription diet has different forms of carbs which is good for slow releasing and is best for him to get him stable.
> 
> I have asked her 3/4 times now and stated wet food and 10% carbs or less and she still states the recommended one is best. Head is confused as she has been so good so far and i do trust her.
> 
> HAs anyone tried the specific diet i mention above?


I respectfully disagree with your vet. There is no need for carbs whatsoever, of any type of release. Cats continuously liberate glucose from protein - this is how they obtain glucose in the 'wild' (they certainly don't eat it), and this is how their bodies are designed to work. They have no need for extra dietary glucose.

This applies to any cat, but is obviously much more important in a diabetic. A low carbohydrate food brings the best chance of remission.

Does your vet object to the Royal Canin Diabetic Wet version? This would be far preferable, if going down the prescription diet route, since it has a much lower carb content than the dry version.

Personally, if my cat became diabetic, I'd stick with something like what he's on now (Canagan wet) - high protein, moderate fat, ultra-low carb. You could try raw as lorilu suggested, but be careful with the fat content. Cats cope well with fat overall because it is a natural part of their diet, but it can increase insulin resistance.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> No he doesnt show any skin problems, he saw a specialist also and all clear, His symptoms would be scratching around his ears / head and shaking his head. Almost like there is a flea in his ear. He was having steroid injections to control allergies and switching food to prescrption which was hills C/d as this didnt have anything he was allergic to and was on the "approved" list the specialist said he could eat along with this new Royal Canin the vet is suggesting. Now diabetic he is coming off steroids...


That's good, if it was the steroids that induced his diabetes then by stopping them he has an excellent chance of remission.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thank you so much.

I wont have time be able to give him raw food he is very fussy. I just need to pick / try a food i can quickly get / order ASAP.

Without being an expert as new to this hoping someone can suggest the best UK food that would best suit his allergies posted.

Thank you again


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

As I said, I (personally) would ignore whatever it says on that piece of paper about food allergies. I don't recommend the blood tests for food allergies as they are a waste of time and money. Just my opinion.

Why not look into Thrive, Bozita, Canagan... all high protein and low carb wet foods. You must speak to your vet about what you're choosing to feed to ensure they're happy with it from the point of view of his skin, and because his insulin requirements may change.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> Does your vet object to the Royal Canin Diabetic Wet version? This would be far preferable, if going down the prescription diet route, since it has a much lower carb content than the dry version.
> 
> .


Attached picture of food that he is NOT allergic to by specturm labs when he saw specialist.

Could he have any of these good for diabetes?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I see a pattern here. Those are almost all "veterinary" diets, and they are ALL high in carbs and all very poor quality. That Hills c/d is one of the worst "foods" ever.

In addition those are all foods that push their propaganda to vet students.

Go with Shosh's suggestions on food.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

PS There are commercial raw diets. Very easy to feed. And probably don't cost any more than those "veterinary diets". You could feed a rotation of low carb canned and commercial raw. : )


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/bozita/bozita/452635

Can you confirm if this is correct one? I guess i would go with chicken / beef???


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

or does it have to be the canned version???


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

As long as it's wet, that's fine.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi, if you want to feed bozita it needs to be the canned version. The tetra paks are not suitable for diabetics. Like you when our cat Custard was diagnosed back in February we were given the vet talk about prescription foods and given RC wet and dry diabetic food. However not only is it high in carbs it is horrendously expensive! We now feed Custard mostly sheba fine flakes which is around 2-3% carbs wet food. He officially has no dry although unofficially sneaks an occasional snack of Porta 21 (10% carbs, hypo-allergenic dried food). We are practising Tight Regulation now and Custard is doing good. He is officially prescribed 2u Caninsulin twice daily (like you) but I do blood glucose testing and will dose appropriately rather than blind dosing. This means that I adjust his dose which keeps him stable and he now never goes above 12 whereas before he was having highs (using the vet's methods) in the 20's. He normally stays around 2.5-6 and I rarely need to give more than 2.5u in 24hours now.
@Paddypaws is the diabetic expert and got me and Custard on track 
@Shoshannah wondered what you thoughts around Tight Regulation were, our vet is very disapproving and would prefer blind dosing and a veterinary approved diet but even she hasn't been able to deny that Custard is looking great!
Diabetes is a manageable condition but does take time so depends on how much time you could commit if for example you could do tests yourself. I have found it a struggle but it has got easier. However in the real world (as opposed to online lol) I do know around 8 or 9 people with diabetic cats who are quite happy to feed the diabetic food and not do any testing and their cats are still doing ok although they are unlikely to ever go into remission.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thanks a lot for info, 1 last point i spoke to another vet (different practice) and they said the Bozita although very good in 7.1% carbs , it has 83% moisture and paying for water and only 8.% protein. In comparison royal canin was 46% protein and said this should be the first step in getting him stable and then looking to switch if i felt it was required at a later point. He said he would need higher protein to be active again and help recovery. 

How long have your cats been stable on bozita / other alternatives? Was they on it from the start or once they stable on other prescription diets ?


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

High protein, low carb is definitely the best thing you can feed your cat, when my boy Rodney was diagnosed I took him off all dry food. If you switch his food from what he's eating now then you really need to keep a close eye on his blood sugars as they will change with it. I couldn't get Rodney on decent food, he refused to eat it so I had to stick with crappy food. He still went into remission after 3 months though & still is a year on. These diabetic prescription diets are a total waste of time, his diabetes will be best managed with good food & a strict routine.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

puppy8910club said:


> thanks a lot for info, 1 last point i spoke to another vet (different practice) and they said the Bozita although very good in 7.1% carbs , it has 83% moisture and paying for water and only 8.% protein. In comparison *royal canin was 46% protein *and said this should be the first step in getting him stable and then looking to switch if i felt it was required at a later point. He said he would need higher protein to be active again and help recovery.
> How long have your cats been stable on bozita / other alternatives? Was they on it from the start or once they stable on other prescription diets ?


Surely this does not make sense. Chicken is about 24% protein, turkey is about 17-20% protein. How can Royal Canin be 'good' at 46%? Anyway, to compare wet and dry food you have to look at dry matter. Wet at 83% moisture and 8% protein could be higher in protein than dry at about 10% moisture. (Forgive me for not doing the maths.) You need to look at the recommended daily feeding amounts and compare the protein levels in the respective quantities.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Bozita and other alternatives mentioned are only 8-12 % in protein , is that really classed as "high protein" ? 

Not saying anyone is incorrect trying to understand.

High protein royal cainin is 46% and quite a difference, although carbs is more.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> thanks a lot for info, 1 last point i spoke to another vet (different practice) and they said the Bozita although very good in 7.1% carbs , it has 83% moisture and paying for water and only 8.% protein. In comparison royal canin was 46% protein and said this should be the first step in getting him stable and then looking to switch if i felt it was required at a later point. He said he would need higher protein to be active again and help recovery.
> 
> How long have your cats been stable on bozita / other alternatives? Was they on it from the start or once they stable on other prescription diets ?


Custard has been on the alternatives from the start. I was lucky to get some support from diagnosis so was able to get up to speed pretty quick. Funny like you I was told the same about wet food by the vet, that it is basically expensive water and that if I was feeding wet food that was why he was always hungry. I don't know about your cat but Custard was ravenous when he was diagnosed but is now stable and eats much more regularly. We feed him 4-5 times a day wet food which he has half to a full pouch each time. I don't know whether the prescription diet would have worked as well, I doubt it, but if nothing else it has had a cost saving benefit and i know that Custard is doing well on it. His insulin requirements are right down and sometimes will go for 18 hours before he needs another shot. In the beginning the vet told us that it takes on average 7-8 months to stabilise a diabetic cat and he has been stable since the first month. He also put weight back on and is way more energetic! Of the keys to success is being able to blood test yourself as it saves expense on glucose curves at the vets and allows you to know whats going on


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> Bozita and other alternatives mentioned are only 8-12 % in protein , is that really classed as "high protein" ?
> 
> Not saying anyone is incorrect trying to understand.
> 
> High protein royal cainin is 46% and quite a difference, although carbs is more.


I know it is tricky isn't it? I am in no way against dry food although I appreciate the arguments about needing more fluid. But as a data analyst sometimes the figures quoted don't add up because you are absolutely right comparing a wet food with 10% protein and 10% carbs to a dry food with 45% protein and 30% carbs it is pretty obvious actually the wet foods has a larger percentage of carbs once you take out the water content. I do think one of the keys though is that dry food tends to be grazed on which keeps blood glucose high. Having regular measured portions of wet food with low carbs at say 4-6 hr intervals in my experience keeps blood glucose at a level rather than large swings.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thats interesting to hear, currently i am only allowed to feed twice a day 6am, 6pm when i do his insulin.

It has made me think about the protein side of things. Perhaps once stable i can feed him 3 times a day like yourself maybe more. I also wonder if you feed him more because the protein level is not enough it 2 hits morning / evening. Its a minefield , 2 indepndant vets and another "phone line" help say go with the vet royal canin to start and online and everywhere else the wet food. I read all reviews/ articles and zooplus and was about to hit the trigger on bozita but after last vet said about protein i am tempted to try the Royal Canin for a while and see how stable he gets and then switch to bozita if not seeing the best results i want. (right or wrong )


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

At the end of the day you have to do what is right for you and your kitty after taking all the advice. I have to say after hearing about Custard's diagnosis i thought the world had fallen in  he was so poorly and had lost so much weight (about 1kg) I really thought he wouldn't make it. I also work fulltime, breed (or did) Maine Coons and so have got 10 other cats as well as Custard to consider, along with my own numerous health issues so never thought I would get on top of it. It seems to be standard for vets to suggest that you only feed twice and day and to be fair our other cats are fed wet twice a day but they are allowed to free feed on dry. But regular feeding definitely works for keeping diabetics stable, in humans too, my FIL is diabetic and has to eat regularly through the day. When we started Custard needed around 600-700g of wet food to keep him satisfied as diabetics don't absorb nutrients well. Since he is now stable he has around 350g per day and has regained the weight he lost.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Yeah my head is just turned in all directions, like yourself and everyone just want to do whats best for the cat and not worried at cost. I was previously feeding him 2 wet pouches morning / evening and then biscuits in between (this was prior to diabetes). Its hard knowing he hungry and ignoring him...

I will have a long chat with the vet again as leaving work soon to go straight there. I have the print outs of Bozita and may ask if i can try him on this for a while to see what impact it has and if it does not work to then go to the food they suggest......

I change my mind every post i read. Will have to be trial and error either way but be sensible and monitor well. Will keep you posted on what i do going forward and how his results get on ... Thank you to everyone.


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## QOTN (Jan 3, 2014)

puppy8910club said:


> Bozita and other alternatives mentioned are only 8-12 % in protein , is that really classed as "high protein" ?
> Not saying anyone is incorrect trying to understand.
> High protein royal cainin is 46% and quite a difference, although carbs is more.


I am not familiar with either of these foods but generally, wet food is higher in protein, once the moisture is taken out of the equation. How much dry food comprises a daily allowance? 60g on average I expect. So at 46% protein a cat would eat 27.6g protein a day. If you take the lower amount of Bozita cited by Chloe1975 a wet allowance is 350g per day or 28g protein at 8%. In this case virtually the same amount. I do hate doing maths in public. Not my strong point! Anybody able to confirm this?


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

think my cat is 4-5kg

So bozita

5 - 6 500 - 600 g

Canin is 63g day , now sure how you work it out ?


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

QOTN said:


> I am not familiar with either of these foods but generally, wet food is higher in protein, once the moisture is taken out of the equation. How much dry food comprises a daily allowance? 60g on average I expect. So at 46% protein a cat would eat 27.6g protein a day. If you take the lower amount of Bozita cited by Chloe1975 a wet allowance is 350g per day or 28g protein at 8%. In this case virtually the same amount. I do hate doing maths in public. Not my strong point! Anybody able to confirm this?


Yes thats about right and carbs in both cases are similar 30% in the dried is 20g and in the bozita is 5.5% so in 350g is 19.5g. Sheba Fine Flakes only have 2% carbs and I have just started giving custard applaws Pate as a variation now its complete which has 0% carbs.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

on that basis, Bozita or Royal Canin or as u say just the same?


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> think my cat is 4-5kg
> 
> So bozita
> 
> ...


Custard is 5kg. The amounts quoted are higher than needed for Bozita, I would say you wouldn't feed more than around 300-400g same as us. Custard had lost a kilo in weight and gone done to 4kg, even at 400g a day he gained the kilo back


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

puppy8910club said:


> Bozita and other alternatives mentioned are only 8-12 % in protein , is that really classed as "high protein" ?
> 
> Not saying anyone is incorrect trying to understand.
> 
> High protein royal cainin is 46% and quite a difference, although carbs is more.


Like the others have mentioned you need to work out the dry weight equivalent. The good quality wet foods will be well above 50% protein. There is an online calculator to help you out... I think @Erenya posted a link (sorry if I've not remembered correctly) and will hopefully be along soon!

Animonda vom Feinstein, I'm pretty sure when I calculated, is also under 10% carbs and is low in fat and as lorilu pointed out there are commercial raw diets (natural instinct , nutriment etc) although I do not know if they are low enough in fat.

You would be feeding approx 200-350g of foods such as bozita a day, not 500-600g 

With regard to your vets comment about paying for water, I would rather pay for water than have a dehydrated cat, as they do not have a thirst drive like us and so do not drink enough. Like Chloe, I'm not against dry food and happily feed a little each day along with wet food.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

GingerNinja said:


> Like the others have mentioned you need to work out the dry weight equivalent. The good quality wet foods will be well above 50% protein. There is an online calculator to help you out... I think @Erenya posted a link (sorry if I've not remembered correctly) and will hopefully be along soon!
> 
> Animonda vom Feinstein, I'm pretty sure when I calculated, is also under 10% carbs and is low in fat and as lorilu pointed out there are commercial raw diets (natural instinct , nutriment etc) although I do not know if they are low enough in fat.
> 
> ...


Yes Animonda vom Feinstein is okay too, we sometimes feed Custard it but he is not overly keen if i'm honest! also animonda carny exotic too is okay. Anything in gravy has added sugars so avoid. Which is a shame for Custard as he used to love Gourmet Perle.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

why would i only be feeding 300-350 a day?

His weight is between 4-5 kg so therfore 400-500 a day ?


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> why would i only be feeding 300-350 a day?
> 
> His weight is between 4-5 kg so therfore 400-500 a day ?


Because they are only guidelines and I think most cats would end up quite overweight if they ate as much as that. Also it depends on activity levels too, if you have got a very active cat then they will need more but most cats on wet food only eat around 200-300g per day. My large neuter Maine Coon boy Womble only eats around 300g a day (he doesn't like dry) and is 11kg and not exactly wasting away as you can see


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

chloe1975 said:


> Anything in gravy has added sugars so avoid.


my two love stuff in gravy/sauce and we will only give them food with less than 10% carbs on dry matter basis (DMB) and that don't have sugar in it. I can link a few gravy/sauce types if you're interested.

the calculator is here - http://scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html - I have it saved as a favourite on my smart phone to double check any new foods I find in supermarkets/shops


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Erenya said:


> my two love stuff in gravy/sauce and we will only give them food with less than 10% carbs on dry matter basis (DMB) and that don't have sugar in it. I can link a few gravy/sauce types if you're interested.
> 
> the calculator is here - http://scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html - I have it saved as a favourite on my smart phone to double check any new foods I find in supermarkets/shops


Yes that would be good thanks. Its not just sugar he's not supposed to have but any type of grain or starch but I do find a small amount doesn't really affect his BG too much so happy to try something new and see how it goes. i have got a carb calculator too. It comes to something when you have to stand in the supermarket looking at all the different foods to see what is suitable lol.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

chloe1975 said:


> @Shoshannah wondered what you thoughts around Tight Regulation were, our vet is very disapproving and would prefer blind dosing and a veterinary approved diet but even she hasn't been able to deny that Custard is looking great!


Entirely dependent on the owner. If I've got a good owner, I am not against TR - but it just isn't suitable for some owners.



puppy8910club said:


> thanks a lot for info, 1 last point i spoke to another vet (different practice) and they said the Bozita although very good in 7.1% carbs , it has 83% moisture and paying for water and only 8.% protein.


You are paying for water, but 83% moisture is a GOOD property of a food, not a bad one. A mouse is 70-80% moisture. Feeding wet food is more expensive, but we know that cats don't drink as much as they ought to and that a dry diet is associated with a lower moisture intake overall, even in cats that are seen to drink. Obviously an uncontrolled diabetic will drink a lot anyway, but they are still at risk of dehydration because they urinate more.

When looking at protein levels, always compare values on a dry matter basis.



puppy8910club said:


> Bozita and other alternatives mentioned are only 8-12 % in protein , is that really classed as "high protein" ?
> 
> High protein royal cainin is 46% and quite a difference, although carbs is more.


It's because Bozita is wet. There's so much water in it that, obviously, the protein levels will seem low at first glance. Everything in a wet food is 'low'. Until you compare the nutrients on a dry matter basis, you cannot say either way.



chloe1975 said:


> Funny like you I was told the same about wet food by the vet, that it is basically expensive water and that if I was feeding wet food that was why he was always hungry.


That's odd: the increased bulk of a wet diet fills the stomach up more than the caloric equivalent of dry. I've always thought the exact opposite of what your vet says: that DRY food makes cats more hungry. Mind you, Bagpuss is hungry whatever he eats. I've just shouted at him because he was trying to break his way into the kitchen bin. 



puppy8910club said:


> thats interesting to hear, currently i am only allowed to feed twice a day 6am, 6pm when i do his insulin.


This is a rather outdated view. We know that the postprandial period of cats is very long - sometimes 24 hours long. Assuming a suitable, low carb diet is being fed, there is no glucose spike after meals in cats. They produce glucose at a continuous rate from protein via hepatic gluconeogenesis. They don't need to be fed in strict meals like dogs. I'm happy with cats eating ad lib if they prefer, or sticking to several small meals a day; I've not heard any of the specialists recommend strict meal feeding for cats.

It is important to keep the diet consistent, though.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

Apologies, I hadn't read the entire thread before and now have.

I really struggled to get my head around cat food when I first got a cat - so much different information and so much of it conflicting. In the end I found a couple of good sources of information and used logic and common sense.

When comparing wet food and dry food you cannot rely on the pure numbers, as they are totally different. To be fair to both, you need to remove the moisture from both to gove you the Dry Matter Basis (DMB) of the key components - this way you ensure that you're starting on a level playing field.

So, here are two examples for you

*Dry matter basis analysis*
*Royal Canin Diabetic DS 46 - DR*

Protein 48.68 %
Fat 12.70%
Carbs 28.25%
*Bozita Tetrapack Chicken & Turkey* - http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/bozita#Tetra_Pak

Protein 50%
Fat 26.47%
Carbs 7.06%
I just wouldn't give an animal that's basically a carnivore something that was over 1/4 carbs...

We do give ours bozita, but we're not worried about the fat content. From what I've seen, you are looking for a gravy type with no sugar, high protein, low carb, lowish fat and no grain - I'll look when I get home if that's ok


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

puppy8910club said:


> thanks a lot for info, 1 last point i spoke to another vet (different practice) and they said the Bozita although very good in 7.1% carbs , *it has 83% moisture and paying for water and only 8.% protein. In comparison royal canin was 46% protein *and said this should be the first step in getting him stable and then looking to switch if i felt it was required at a later point. He said he would need higher protein to be active again and help recovery.
> 
> How long have your cats been stable on bozita / other alternatives? Was they on it from the start or once they stable on other prescription diets ?


*No no this is all wrong. You can't compare wet and dry like that, you have to convert them both to a dry matter basis.

To do this you divide the ingredient percentage by the dry matter percentage. 8% protein divided by 17 % = 47% protein for the wet food. The dry is probably no more than 10% moisture (if that) so you take 46% divided by 90% and get 51% protein. Very little difference, and the moisture is absolutely CRUCIAL. Not to mention the carb load in that dry food.*

Whoever gave you that information should be reported.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Thats great thank you. Because his numbers were so high on his old C/D food, the vet had the royal canin as mentioned above. He started his first dry food just now and insulin. The vet is still adament this is the best and i printed out all the facts about the other bozita. 

Correct me for my stupidy, but can i give him the royal canin for a period of 2 -3 weeks, whilst i order the bozita, and then transition him to the wet?? Or is is best to just stop the royal and wait for bozita, but his old Hills C/D wet was giving him very very high results. I will have to just go against my vets advice and when he goes back for testing and hopefully amazing results i will say guess what i am on Bozita ? . 

I could just confess and say sorry but i am doing this , but everytime i go there i am giving a whole load of spill that this Royal is best for him and to avoid using the other foods for the time being.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

stick to your guns. my vet found that she just kept running up against a brick wall and even she had to admit our two are in fabulous condition so she's just quit going on. believe in yourself and let the results do the talking.

you said your boy was picky, what sort of things will he eat - i'm just looking up some zooplus options for you.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

he likes chicken, please note he does have allergies im sure i posted a picture earlier but let me re-post for you.

He cant have duck, brewers yeast, tomatoa, rice,

He likes wet food, jelly, gravy . Pate / dense / harder soft food does not go down well.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> Thats great thank you. Because his numbers were so high on his old C/D food, the vet had the royal canin as mentioned above. He started his first dry food just now and insulin. The vet is still adament this is the best and i printed out all the facts about the other bozita.
> 
> Correct me for my stupidy, but can i give him the royal canin for a period of 2 -3 weeks, whilst i order the bozita, and then transition him to the wet?? Or is is best to just stop the royal and wait for bozita, but his old Hills C/D wet was giving him very very high results. I will have to just go against my vets advice and when he goes back for testing and hopefully amazing results i will say guess what i am on Bozita ? .
> 
> I could just confess and say sorry but i am doing this , but everytime i go there i am giving a whole load of spill that this Royal is best for him and to avoid using the other foods for the time being.


Are you doing any testing yourself? It is worth getting a monitor (human) and start testing. i think you have already joined the Diabetic Cat Care forum where I have Custards logs. There are some things you need to be careful with when you are cutting out the dry as it can cause glucose levels to change and so he may not need so much insulin (hence why testing is a good idea). While you wait for the bozita you could try the sheba fine flakes I mentioned or the sheba trays in Jelly which I don't think have in any of the ingredients you mentioned. Custard likes the cod trays in jelly and chicken in jelly best 

I know its hard to go against what the vet is telling you, I found it really tough too but I have found telling her as little as possible has saved arguments along the way! You can always tell her you have ordered the RC online so you don't need to get it from then and then they will never know.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

chloe1975 said:


> Are you doing any testing yourself? It is worth getting a monitor (human) and start testing. i think you have already joined the Diabetic Cat Care forum where I have Custards logs. There are some things you need to be careful with when you are cutting out the dry as it can cause glucose levels to change and so he may not need so much insulin (hence why testing is a good idea). While you wait for the bozita you could try the sheba fine flakes I mentioned or the sheba trays in Jelly which I don't think have in any of the ingredients you mentioned. Custard likes the cod trays in jelly and chicken in jelly best
> 
> I know its hard to go against what the vet is telling you, I found it really tough too but I have found telling her as little as possible has saved arguments along the way! You can always tell her you have ordered the RC online so you don't need to get it from then and then they will never know.


No i am not home testing yet, only getting to grips with the insulin to be honest.

1) ok so we all agree ignore Royal Canin and Bozita is a good choice ?
2) I am sure this is ok with his allergies also from screenshot provided, can anyone confirm ?
3) Can i just stop the royal canin in a few days once i express delivery the Bozita? (royal canin i am sure is better than C/D which is getting very high results
4) What is worst can happen on Bozita ? He is on 0.5 insulin already which is very low and the VETPEN i am using does not go any lower, so i hope his insulin wont need to be adjusted?
5) I am due to take him back vets 2 weeks time for a glucose curve they monitor him all day, once on new food. If i use bozita and his results are great, it will be nice i can turn around and say "hey im using bozita what you think 

So many questions, sorry just need make sure i am doing right....


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

The Bozita tetrapaks contain yeast; I'm not sure about the tins.

You'd be best asking your vet TBH, since I've already made my views clear that blood tests for food allergies are a rip-off and don't really mean anything (even the companies that sell them don't recommend using them).  You're best off running any food choice by your vet, since they are the ones who have diagnosed the food allergy.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thanks - any recommendations for non yeast that i can buy online UK ? 

Just i know if i ask vet she will insist on this food royal canin ?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> thanks - any recommendations for non yeast that i can buy online UK ?
> 
> Just i know if i ask vet she will insist on this food royal canin ?


No idea TBH, I've never looked at the yeast content of foods. You might have to do some research.

I know it's hard, but ultimately the vet cannot force you to feed something in particular. I'd suggest you tell her you're not comfortable feeding food X, but food Y has been recommended and you would like to give it a try, if it doesn't work you'll reconsider food X; and does she think food Y would be okay with his skin?

A food trial to diagnose CAFR (cutaneous adverse food reaction) would be ideal, but I fear it might get rather complex trying to balance a novel protein diet with diabetes - it's possible, but not simple.

Best of luck xxx


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

If I had a vet pushing a brand of food so hard at me, I'd find a new vet. Royal Canin is no better than Hills. Look at the ingredients.

And no cat, especially a diabetic cat, should be on a dry diet. And a dry diet full of corn and cellulose and wheat and SOY? (cats hould never have soy)..does it get any worse than that? I don't think so.

Look at this " food". How any vet can recommend it with a straight face is beyond me:

_Dry food: COMPOSITION: dehydrated poultry protein, barley, wheat gluten*, maize gluten, tapioca, soya protein isolate*, animal fats, hydrolysed animal proteins, vegetable fibres, chicory pulp, fish oil, psyllium husks and seeds, minerals, fructo-oligo-saccharides, soya oil, marigold extract (source of lutein). ADDITIVES (per kg): Nutritional additives: Vitamin A: 6300 IU, Vitamin D3: 1000 IU, E1 (Iron): 23 mg, E2 (Iodine): 2.3 mg, E4 (Copper): 3 mg, E5 (Manganese): 29 mg, E6 (Zinc): 88 mg, E8 (Selenium): 0.02 mg - Preservatives - Antioxidants. ANALYTICAL CONSTITUENTS: Protein: 46% - Fat content: 12% - Crude ash: 6.2% - Crude fibres: 3.6% - Starch: 18.8% - Essential fatty acids: 3.18% - Total sugars: 1.8%. *L.I.P.: protein selected for its very high assimilation._

There isn't even any meat in it. A cat is a strict obligate carnivore! It's only 5.5 % moisture! and it's 18.8% carbs (numbers not DMB) Vets who recommend this food should be cited for incompetence at the very least, malpractice really. The one guarantee you have if you feed this food is that your cat will always be insulin dependent, and he will be always going to the vet. Conflict of interest much?


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

If anyone can be a legend plz help me pick best food taking into his allergies into consideration and I'm from UK . Knowledge here is great I will talk again to vet but if anyone can confirm bonzita canned any good or other alternative? Thank you


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Also what is worst case scenario with cat if change food to 10% less ? His insulin is small at 0.5 can he have a low or hypo as not home testing yet ? Trying to work out if I can do behind vet back and just go back for glucose curve and if good readings then reveal what changes I done and ignored her food ?


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I'd just feed the Bozita. Maybe someone else has some better advice.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

And please don't feel so afraid of the vet. You are paying them for their advice and support - they are providing a service to you. If you are really uncomfortable working with this vet then I suggest you find another you are comfortable working with; diabetes is not a condition to be managed without optimum communication and cooperation between vet and owner.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

ordering the canned bozita as no1 choice and then the terka pack as abackup incase he turns his nose up.

Will monitor him closley and fingers crossed see how this goes?

He turning his nose up at the dry royal canin anyways he eats a mouthful then i have to mix old food into it to make him eat more.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

As Shosh says re you're vet, if you're not comfortable with them, find another one as you'll be seeing a lot of them until you get your cat regulated. I was lucky & had a fantastic vet, I saw her every 3 weeks & had weekly telephone conversationsto discuss any concerns I had. I was an emotional wreck in the early days trying to get to grips with everything & my vet & all the staff at my practice were so supportive so I hope you can find the same as it helps so much.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Sounds strange i am happy with my vet she is great and we always speak on phone and face to face. With his past she been amazing but its just a difference of opinion on his food for this. Turns out winston doesnt like the dry food much anyways so i have ordered the Canned Bozita just now and will let vet know he wasnt eating dry and ive gone to this....


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> Sounds strange i am happy with my vet she is great and we always speak on phone and face to face. With his past she been amazing but its just a difference of opinion on his food for this. Turns out winston doesnt like the dry food much anyways so i have ordered the Canned Bozita just now and will let vet know he wasnt eating dry and ive gone to this....


I know its hard. i get on well with our vet usually and she has been great in the past with all manner of ailments that our cats have suffered from and with kittens we have had even though she doesn't really approve of pedigree breeders. But we have really clashed over Custard's treatment and it is hard then knowing what is best. But Custard has been so great on the diet we have given him and he is so stable that she can't really argue, although she certainly does not approve of our earlier than 12 hour shots or us adjusting his dose 

I know what you mean about only just getting to grips with his insulin and not testing yet but it is worthwhile if you can. Glucose curves and testing at the vets stresses cats out so their numbers tend to be higher which I am told is why some vets tend to think 7 or 8 is a 'normal' level.

In terms of food I couldn't see any yeast listed on the sheba I feed, it might be worth looking at the applaws pate range as it is more like food in gravy if thats what he likes. Bozita canned doesn't have yeast in so you are okay there.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

It does like you do have a good relationship with your vet already then, mine have recommended food recently for my other cat that I wasn't keen on, I just ignored what they said & gave her something else with great results so stick to what you think is best for your cat. The diabetic cat forum is a great resource for information & support so well worth checking that out if you haven't already. 

Regarding having a hypo, it is possible for Winston to have one but I think it would be less likely at such a small dose, Rodney started at 1.5 units twice a day & very quickly was being over controlled but luckily for me he never had a hypo. I printed off an information sheet from the internet about the signs of a hypo & what to do & pinned this up in the kitchen so the info was immediately at hand should it ever happen.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thank you very much, i will try the bozita canned as suggest. and see how he goes. I think i will get him settle on this food take to vets for a "curve" and after that point do home testing. Its just very overwhelming and only got a good routing of feeding him on windowledge and then injecting after as he lays down. Makes it harder when he was having the biscuits last night / this morning rushing before work and he wouldnt eat much so couldnt inject, finally mixed some old food with new royal canin and then could inject. Cant wait for food to arrive but for now i will try get him eating the dry royal canin as the current hills C/D In gravy is very bad i hear.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

just one more thing - The list you have states that your cat is allergic to duck, yet the royal canin diabetic has two ingredients of:
_*Dehydrated poultry protein*_ & *hydrolysed animal proteins*. There's no evidence that this isn't duck - actually, the very fact it says 'poultry' would lead me to believe there's a strong chance of this containing duck....

I've been looking for a wet gravy/sauce type food that contains a single protein (to avoid the duck), none of the allergens. high protein and low carb, relatively low fat and no sugar - and there are none.....

I know it's an awful question, but how bad are these allergies...


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Erenya said:


> just one more thing - The list you have states that your cat is allergic to duck, yet the royal canin diabetic has two ingredients of:
> _*Dehydrated poultry protein*_ & *hydrolysed animal proteins*. There's no evidence that this isn't duck - actually, the very fact it says 'poultry' would lead me to believe there's a strong chance of this containing duck....
> 
> I've been looking for a wet gravy/sauce type food that contains a single protein (to avoid the duck), none of the allergens. high protein and low carb, relatively low fat and no sugar - and there are none.....
> ...


Thank you for your research / time.

His allergies are questionable. He basically scratches his head / shakes it but its not 24/7 but can be more frequent. This however was him being an outdoor cat also so maybe 80% of his itching was from being outside. Never any sores or skin irritations just physical scratching. (never to the point of creating himself some sores).

He was then having steriods to ease this.
Since diabetic 3 weeks he has been indoors without any steroids although i know they can last up to 8 weeks. and has not itched once.

Looking at his allergy Duck is at 108 and Chicken 88. So its not a million miles away of being normal

Hopefully he will like the bozita canned as this should be all ok for his allergies anyways??
Otherwise i think its damage limitation.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

candida albicans 1197 < which is off the scale however.


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

Interesting - I note that brewers yeast is at 205

Interestingly, this study (http://www.curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=1904220) has recently shown that brewers yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) actually combats candida albicans in the body!

I would be tempted to maybe bypass the less serious allergies at the current time, especially in respect of the duck, this would allow you to try:

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/miamor/miamor_pouches/37433
http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/miamor/miamor_trays/449529 (this one is a sort of jelly like pate with chunks in, but my two love it - chicken & ham + chicken & salmon only)


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

As i have ordered bozita canned do you think this is ok or just get what you have linked?? (if cat was yours). 

Or is the link more of a next best food if he does not take to the canned bozita? 

Thanks a lot


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## Erenya (Jul 22, 2014)

bozita is better - but I always thing having a spare option is good too


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Erenya said:


> bozita is better - but I always thing having a spare option is good too


Great thank you  , just have to wait 3-4 days for delivery  ......................... I guess i have to stick to royal canin / mix with his old food until it arrives. Everyone else thanks for help i will let u know how Winston goes!


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I tend to feed a few different 'safe' varieties to Custard so he doesn't get too bored. I inject Custard while he is eating, that way he is distracted and doesn't seem to bother at all. I know you said you are using the pen injector, not used that so don't know what its like. The syringes we had from the vet originally had really long needles which were quite bendy and difficult. Since then I ordered my own with shorter needles that have been easier.
I agree that 0.5 is a low dose so doubtful that he would have a hypo. The vet terrified me talking about them but Custard has never had one. If he goes quite low (around 2.4) he just gets more hungry so just give something high protein (not sugary like honey) such as chicken piece. He was prescribed 2u twice daily but we are currently on around 1u once or twice a day depending on his readings


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Erenya said:


> I know it's an awful question, but how bad are these allergies...


A diagnosis of CAFR has not yet been made; the blood tests don't diagnose a food allergy, nor are they marketed as doing so.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Advice please : 

Cat last few days been very largargic, so much yesterday i took him emergency vet as he would normally at least greet me after work and then lay, but he was curled up not moving under bed, managed to get him out (lifting bed) and he did eat food and have injection but he seems like he is dead weight in terms when sitting not really opening eyes and so so tired. 

Vet gave him check over and seems no serious signs of anything in terms of heart, lungs etc. His levels were 17 which was 2-3 hours after his injection, which is where he normally is at that time with his level. 

Today my partner said he is the same very tired, only comes down to go toilet, and seems so tired.  What would you do? Feed him a little? 

I know it will take time for his level to balance, i am waiting on bozita cat food to arrive in post but currently mixing the Prescrption royal canin food with his old wet food C/D . 

I dont think he is in "danger" as such but very concerning he is so tired 24/7. I may have noticed a small shivver in his tail when i put his food down before? Maybe in excitement or maybe its a sign of something?


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> Advice please :
> 
> Cat last few days been very largargic, so much yesterday i took him emergency vet as he would normally at least greet me after work and then lay, but he was curled up not moving under bed, managed to get him out (lifting bed) and he did eat food and have injection but he seems like he is dead weight in terms when sitting not really opening eyes and so so tired.
> 
> ...


Custard was always lethargic in the beginning, he just ate, slept and urinated. Because diabetics don't metabolise their food properly when they are high then he will be burning the calories quickly. At this stage i would feed him. In the beginning I fed custard more than double his 'recommended amount' as he was always hungry and sleepy. It was only when his levels came down to a more normal level (under 8) that he was less hungry as he was able to absorb the nutrients. he then put the weight back on that he had lost from being poorly. It is a battle in the beginning and I felt very despondent and wondered if we were doing the right thing but now seeing him chasing around and playing makes it worthwhile


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

chloe1975 said:


> Custard was always lethargic in the beginning, he just ate, slept and urinated. Because diabetics don't metabolise their food properly when they are high then he will be burning the calories quickly. At this stage i would feed him. In the beginning I fed custard more than double his 'recommended amount' as he was always hungry and sleepy. It was only when his levels came down to a more normal level (under 8) that he was less hungry as he was able to absorb the nutrients. he then put the weight back on that he had lost from being poorly. It is a battle in the beginning and I felt very despondent and wondered if we were doing the right thing but now seeing him chasing around and playing makes it worthwhile


that is re-assuring. I was told that he needs only 2 meals a day 6am 6pm because when he has food it will cause a spike in his levels? Not sure if thats true?

before diabetic was was feeindg him AM Wet, midday some biscuits, evening we, before bed time a few more biscuits. Now its just 6am, 6pm. I am sure he is also depressed from being indoors also but yes he has no energy. Perhaps like u say take a while to get settled, I do question if he is suffering and is it fair on him? I presume he isnt in pain as such just tired. Poor lad been thru so much , i cant wait to get him on bozita and hopefully make an improvement.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> that is re-assuring. I was told that he needs only 2 meals a day 6am 6pm because when he has food it will cause a spike in his levels? Not sure if thats true?


It's not, I did discuss that one a few posts back.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> It's not, I did discuss that one a few posts back.


##

Sorry just so much information to take in i did read that before. I think the problem is the food he is on is NOT good at moment so feeding him more would be maybe a worse thing ? Once and hopefully he loves Bonzita do you think it be then ok to feed him more little and often?

Confusing sometimes im told to only feed twice and info here says it ok to feed more. I will take advice you given on here thou. Providing he on low carb 10% less i do presume i can feed a few more times a day.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

It is hard and I had a lot of wobbles in the early days, wondering if he was suffering and whether it would kinder to let him go tbh. He too was used to going in the garden (all our other cats are indoor only) and he didn't like being shut in. Now he is under control I let him out in the garden a couple of times a day again and he is happy 

Here is the first curve we did on 22nd of Feb, 7 days after starting his insulin
08.00...... 24.2 1unit given
10.00 15.1
12.00 12.4
14.00 20.1
16.00 19.6
18.00 20.4
20.00 21.7 1 unit given

At this point he was eating every 2 hours to satisfy him and had a pouch of wet food at each so eating around 800g a day, weighing 4.2kg!

This is my curve I did on 12th May (we have been doing them every two weeks and submitting to the vets)
08.00 13.8 1.4u given
10.00 5.6
12.00 2.8
14.00 4.3
16.00 6.3
18.00 11.2
20.00 13.2 1.4u given

He now only has 4 wet food meals a day and has around 350g per day, his weight is now back to his normal 5.5kg


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> ##
> 
> Sorry just so much information to take in i did read that before. I think the problem is the food he is on is NOT good at moment so feeding him more would be maybe a worse thing ? Once and hopefully he loves Bonzita do you think it be then ok to feed him more little and often?
> 
> Confusing sometimes im told to only feed twice and info here says it ok to feed more. I will take advice you given on here thou. Providing he on low carb 10% less i do presume i can feed a few more times a day.


It used to be recommended that cats were fed twice daily, like dogs and humans, but it's an outdated practice no longer recommended by the experts.

This is from a JFMS paper back in 2000:


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thats good well done , his levels start at a lowest point of 17 then go into late 30's or 40. So very high. I hope his steriods will wear off soon and then with the food cominbation get some better results.

So really with bonzita, i could perhaps feed him 3 times a day a healthy portion and hopefully that will help.

he been on insulin for 2 weeks now.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Smashing curve @chloe1975, well done.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

With your feeding i could be wrong but if feeding 350 i was working off the HIlls C/D wet you are feeding approx 4 pouches a day? 

85g is a wet pouch on HIlls C/D .. (waiting on bonzita to arrive).


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> With your feeding i could be wrong but if feeding 350 i was working off the HIlls C/D wet you are feeding approx 4 pouches a day?
> 
> 85g is a wet pouch on HIlls C/D .. (waiting on bonzita to arrive).


Yes he has around 3-4 pouches of sheba fine flakes or applaws pate which is spread out over the day sometimes a bit less depending on his mood. I blood test him usually 3 or 4 times a day and always before I inject. He is pretty good about the whole thing to be honest now we are in a routine  I work fulltime so have an automatic feeder for him for lunch if I am not there. If I was feeding bozita I would probably feed him around 250-300g a day as it is a denser food but he is not so keen.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> Smashing curve @chloe1975, well done.


Thanks Shosh, it is great seeing him looking good now, made it all worthwhile 

Here is the big yellow beast!


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

great, im ignoring vet on food choice and twice a day from now. I am going to feed him more . I think i maybe best waiting till his bozita comes thru post as feeding him bad food may cause him to get worse perhaps. I really hope he likes bonzita!!! Otherwise i will try the sheba flakes / applaws pate .


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

Why don't you get a box of Fine Flakes from the supermarket whilst you are waiting for your online order? It's always best to feed a variety if your cat will eat it, so as not to get bored or be stuck if a recipe changes and your cat won't eat the new one! There's also an argument that feeding a variety may stop a cat from developing food intolerance.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

Rodney was like that in the beginning, he would sleep all the time except when it was mealtimes - in his case it was because he was being over controlled quite quickly, have you got a fructosamine test soon? I questioned whether I'd done the right thing for a good few weeks as well but when he started to improve, get more active & put on all the weight he'd lost it I was so pleased I'd done it. 

I had him on a twice a day feeding schedule like you do, every 12 hours, if/when he comes out of remission I will do things differently in that respect. I never kept him inside as it would stress him out & he only potters about out the front of the house or in the garden.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

*Sheba Pouch Fine Flakes, Poultry Selection 12x85g < Is that ok ? will only be for a couple of days? *

*Thanks *


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

It's not particularly high in protein I think but it's grain free & doesn't have the usual rubbish that most do so it wouldn't be a bad choice. Some supermarkets sell Thrive, that's really high protein.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

@chloe1975 - what glucometer do you use?


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thaank you just went shop and got what i mentioned above .


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> thaank you just went shop and got what i mentioned above .


 Yes that is one of the ones Custard has and the fish fine flakes too. They only have about 2% carbs


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Matrod said:


> @chloe1975 - what glucometer do you use?


@Matrod we are using the bayer contour. Its not bad and the strips aren't too expensive like some of them. We got through lots of strips in the beginning though errors but luckily we have got the hang of it now!


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

chloe1975 said:


> @Matrod we are using the bayer contour. Its not bad and the strips aren't too expensive like some of them. We got through lots of strips in the beginning though errors but luckily we have got the hang of it now!


Thanks for that, I'm thinking I'm going to start learning how to test now while he's in remission rather than be in a panic if/when it comes back!


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Matrod said:


> Thanks for that, I'm thinking I'm going to start learning how to test now while he's in remission rather than be in a panic if/when it comes back!


I think its worth doing, there are some videos on you tube which show how to do it. Basically warming the ear and pricking the edge until a drop of blood appears. It does take some practice, I got really frustrated in the beginning but Custard now used to it is pretty good. I have tested a few of our other cats for comparison and none seem very bothered.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

chloe1975 said:


> I think its worth doing, there are some videos on you tube which show how to do it. Basically warming the ear and pricking the edge until a drop of blood appears. It does take some practice, I got really frustrated in the beginning but Custard now used to it is pretty good. I have tested a few of our other cats for comparison and none seem very bothered.


That's good to know, Rodney's a very neurotic cat so it might be a challenge, although he was always excellent with his injections so I might be ok, I'll have to stock up on thrive treats I think!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

The veterinary glucometers tend to be better. I realise that many people use the human ones and do so successfully, but remember they are not the same. The human ones read lower by up to 1-2 mmol/L and in some cases may lead to chronic underdosing. It's important to calibrate your human glucometer to a veterinary equivalent so you know what targets you're after.

The human meters also tend to need more blood than the veterinary ones, which can be a deal-breaker for some cats.

Human monitors tend to have a lower accuracy than the veterinary ones; in independent tests in the literature, the AlphaTrak was most accurate for cats. It does tend to be more expensive than the human meters.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

small update.

Home at 4pm gave him half a sached of hills c/D.... then went shop got the sheba fine flakes. Gave him a full pouch and insulin at 6pm. He was still very larthargic.... Came home after going out for dinner at 9pm and gave him half a sached of sheba. He now on window ledge purrring and waggling tail and seems alive again! So happy. Perhaps a short "high" but its so nice to see him move and seem alive..... wont get hopes up but i hope feeding him more and sheba until bozita arrives he will improve i cant cope with him being so "down" as he has been.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

Shoshannah said:


> The veterinary glucometers tend to be better. I realise that many people use the human ones and do so successfully, but remember they are not the same. The human ones read lower by up to 1-2 mmol/L and in some cases may lead to chronic underdosing. It's important to calibrate your human glucometer to a veterinary equivalent so you know what targets you're after.
> 
> The human meters also tend to need more blood than the veterinary ones, which can be a deal-breaker for some cats.
> 
> Human monitors tend to have a lower accuracy than the veterinary ones; in independent tests in the literature, the AlphaTrak was most accurate for cats. It does tend to be more expensive than the human meters.


So is the AlphaTrak a veterinary meter? If it needs less blood then all the better especially with a cat like Rodney!


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

puppy8910club said:


> small update.
> 
> Home at 4pm gave him half a sached of hills c/D.... then went shop got the sheba fine flakes. Gave him a full pouch and insulin at 6pm. He was still very larthargic.... Came home after going out for dinner at 9pm and gave him half a sached of sheba. He now on window ledge purrring and waggling tail and seems alive again! So happy. Perhaps a short "high" but its so nice to see him move and seem alive..... wont get hopes up but i hope feeding him more and sheba until bozita arrives he will improve i cant cope with him being so "down" as he has been.


Glad he liked the fine flakes! What's his name? He won't be like this forever, it can just take time to get them regulated, I had a lot of ups & downs with Rodney over a few months as his insulin requirements kept decreasing. You will get there & get your old boy back. It's incredibly overwhelming to start with, there's a lot to get your head round, I think I cried for about a week when he got diagnosed & it took me ages to stop obsessing about him having a hypo!


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Matrod said:


> Glad he liked the fine flakes! What's his name? He won't be like this forever, it can just take time to get them regulated, I had a lot of ups & downs with Rodney over a few months as his insulin requirements kept decreasing. You will get there & get your old boy back. It's incredibly overwhelming to start with, there's a lot to get your head round, I think I cried for about a week when he got diagnosed & it took me ages to stop obsessing about him having a hypo!


Winston he is almost 6 years now! i hope so to thank you for your help


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Matrod said:


> So is the AlphaTrak a veterinary meter? If it needs less blood then all the better especially with a cat like Rodney!


It is - AlphaTRAK 2 to be specific.


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Aw Winston is gorgeous.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

He's so handsome!! When you've got the lovely Winston back to normal you will be so glad you persevered.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

thank you he is a good lad...

He been through so much, Abcess, ashma , allergies, MRI Scans, Xrays , Toxoplasmosis, and now diabetes. Many owners would have put him down sadly but everyone does say to me i been so good to him and given him every chance, i hope i can do well for him now. I have spent over £10,000 on him in 3 years he been unwell.

Sadly also his brother i had to put to sleep 3 years ago, chronic kidney failure, maybe from antifreeze. He was called Dobby (brothers). Was sad as winston would wait at back door for his brother for weeks on end.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

Awwww, poor sausage! He has been through such a lot. I've been through the abscess bit twice with Rodney, he decided to become hyperthyroid 6 weeks ago so trying to keep on top of that now!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

I remember Winston and his eye problem / abscess. Poor soul.


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## GingerNinja (Mar 23, 2014)

Winston is lovely, I also remember the previous problems 

He is very lucky to have you! I'm sure you will soon get on top of his condition


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks just been vet I've been feeding winston ad hoc last day and half sheeba and he seems lot brighter and actually played earlier ... Anyways vet said to just keep twice daily feed with diabetic food as glucose level will rise and counter act the insulin ....... ?? I'm going to feed him 3-4 days ignore that . Also ordered alpha track to do home glucose testing .

Until bozita arrives my plan is :

6am 1 pouch + Insulin
Midday - half pouch 
6pm 1 Pouch + insuling 
9/10pm - half pouch 

Sound reasonable?


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Shoshannah said:


> The veterinary glucometers tend to be better. I realise that many people use the human ones and do so successfully, but remember they are not the same. The human ones read lower by up to 1-2 mmol/L and in some cases may lead to chronic underdosing. It's important to calibrate your human glucometer to a veterinary equivalent so you know what targets you're after.
> I have always used a human meter and so does every one else in my diabetic cat group. All meters read slightly differently, and even blood tests taken seconds apart will give slightly different readings but it is the overall pattern of movement which is most important. As long as the same meter is used all the time then there is no issue with under, or over, dosing as individual doses are calculated with reference to multiple meter readings.
> 
> The human meters also tend to need more blood than the veterinary ones, which can be a deal-breaker for some cats.
> ...


The problem is that the Alpha Track is a LOT more expensive, close to £100 if I remember whereas a human meter is around £10 (in fact we at DCC provide free meters with a starter pack) Also the strips themselves are much more expensive and can only be bought from the vet whereas human test strips are widely available in any local chemist or even cheaper on sites like ebay. With Tight Regulation we do get through a lot of test strips especially in the first few weeks.

It breaks my heart that so many owners end up PTS after a diagnosis of FD, in part due to the costs which can really add up when in reality it does not have to cost a fortune to treat the cat very successfully.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

lucky for me i have insurance and they will cover cost of alpha track and strips. Vet ordered in for me, yes no doubt double price but i not having to pay . Good job i have it or i would get the alternatives u said.


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

puppy8910club said:


> lucky for me i have insurance and they will cover cost of alpha track and strips. Vet ordered in for me, yes no doubt double price but i not having to pay . Good job i have it or i would get the alternatives u said.


But..if I understand correctly what you are saying.....that's insurance fraud. You can't use your own human insurance to pay for supplies for your pet. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it's against the law to do that. You could get into enormous trouble and end up paying a lot more than £100.


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## Cats cats cats (Feb 4, 2011)

lorilu said:


> But..if I understand correctly what you are saying.....that's insurance fraud. You can't use your own human insurance to pay for supplies for your pet. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it's against the law to do that. You could get into enormous trouble and end up paying a lot more than £100.


I presumed the poster meant pet insurance ?


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

Early on in the thread the Op stated they do not have pet insurance. Maybe I missed something and they have, since, insured the kitty. But I still wonder if the insurance would cover something from a pre-existing. Really not trying to be a jerk, I promise, just trying to understand. Now that I am thinking about it I may be a bit behind in this thread from where I last left off reading/posting.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

lorilu said:


> But..if I understand correctly what you are saying.....that's insurance fraud. You can't use your own human insurance to pay for supplies for your pet. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it's against the law to do that. You could get into enormous trouble and end up paying a lot more than £100.


To clarify i have had pet insurance since owning my cat and pay for the "extended" / best policy you can buy. I asked vet if i can home test and is alpha track good she said yes and my insurance (Pet insurance) will cover the cost. They ordering it in and i collect next week. 
No fraud, just using my pet insurance as his current diabeties treatment is "on-going" and via an insurance claim.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Not sure where i ever stated i do not have insurance?? Either mis understanding or a typo perhaps. I have insurance for winston


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## lorilu (Sep 6, 2009)

I must be thinking of a different thread. I apologize for my confusion! : )


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

@Paddypaws

AlphaTRAK II needs 0.3 microlitres. Which human ones only require the smaller amounts, for my future reference please?  The ones I'm aware of have needed 4 microlitres.

It is frustrating that the AlphaTRAK is more expensive - I can only assume it's because of the much smaller market. My personal stance on the matter is to use the AlphaTRAK II if it's affordable, because its accuracy has been tweaked specifically to cats; but I would always see a human glucometer used if there is a tight budget!

Several of the studies using glargine by Jacqui Rand et al use human glucometers for tight control.

I would always calibrate the human ones by comparing with an AlphaTRAK or the VetScan because it can alter what targets we're going for the with BG.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Interesting about the different meters. The alpha trak is really expensive and the strips too. i thought the contour strips were expensive at around £13 for 50. I test about 5 times a day so 50 doesn't last long! I know there is a slight difference but i would be suprised if it was as much as 1-2 mmol/l different. From my research I understand 'normal' cats test at around 2.8-3.8 normally which is what I aim for with Custard. Sometimes he is a bit lower but not had any hypos. I have tested a all of our other cats and they test at anything between 3.1-3.5 so if it was reading significantly higher than they actually are then they have got very low BG normally.

Anyway glad Winston seems to be doing better and hopefully when you get some lower numbers he will be much more active again. It is just hard in the beginning getting to grips with it all. @Paddypaws will tell you I spent lots of time crying and worrying but thankfully now that is behind us  It is good you have insurance for him and that it will be covered. I have got it on all my other cats (except 1 for other reasons) with Petplan but didn't have any for Custard due to his age and the cost of premiums. Luckily apart from his initial blood tests it hasn't been too expensive for him. It costs around £11 a month for his his caninsulin and then his syringes (£14 for 3 months worth) and test strips (around £30) a month so not too bad. Our vet doesn't charge us repeat consultations and we only have to take him every 2-3 months for a check up and weigh in and I just email her with his curves I do at home and when I need some more insulin.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Shoshannah said:


> @Paddypaws
> 
> AlphaTRAK II needs 0.3 microlitres. Which human ones only require the smaller amounts, for my future reference please?  The ones I'm aware of have needed 4 microlitres.
> 
> ...


The bayer contour we use which Paddypaws is referring to (which we had in a kit from her ) only uses 0.3. I only need a tiny drop of blood from his ear for it to work which is good as he can be a bit of a pain on occasion!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Awesome, thanks.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

I think most of the human meters need 0.3 or 0.5ml Shoshannah....4ml sounds like an awful lot of capillary blood to try and gather!


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Talking MICROlitres, @Paddypaws, not ml!  The AlphaTRAK needs 0.3 microlitres or 0.0003ml.

I'd be doomed if we needed 4ml to test BG!  :Hilarious


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## Ceiling Kitty (Mar 7, 2010)

Are you sure the human metres need 0.3-0.5ml? That still seems like an awful lot of blood to me - I run a full profile off less. I am assuming it's microlitres.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Shoshannah said:


> Talking MICROlitres, @Paddypaws, not ml!  The AlphaTRAK needs 0.3 microlitres or 0.0003ml.
> 
> I'd be doomed if we needed 4ml to test BG!  :Hilarious


oops sorry got my MLs all mixed up, I just look at the number '0.3' etc :Hungover


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

*** Small Update ***

So i am feeding Sheeba only now for last 2 days (3 times a day) and since then he seems more relaxed. He still stays in his room mostly. Perhaps depressed also as was an outdoor cat. His asthma maybe getting worse as heavy breathing almost like snoring thru his nose sometimes. I went vets and she gave me some medication to try help is asthma. I am taking him vets again tomorrow for a checkup and then he is in on WED for a glucose curve.

I have only told vet i am mixing a small amount of sheeba to make him "Eat" the dry royal canin , i am really hoping in next few weeks i can get some great results and then i shall tell her exactly what i have done with his food.

Just went to checkup on winston and well i guess he seems happier!


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> *** Small Update ***
> 
> . I am taking him vets again tomorrow for a checkup and then he is in on WED for a glucose curve.
> 
> I have only told vet i am mixing a small amount of sheeba to make him "Eat" the dry royal canin , i am really hoping in next few weeks i can get some great results and then i shall tell her exactly what i have done with his food.


Are you testing him at home yet your self?
I think you need to be honest with the vet about the food as they will use this information to work out his insulin dose.
You really should not start altering the carb content of his meals unless you know what his BG is doing at any given point. I do note that he is on a very low dose of caninsulin at the moment so the risk of Hypo is minimal, but I think you need to decide which approach you are going to use and stick to it rather than doing part of what the vet tells you and part of what you decide to do your self.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Paddypaws said:


> Are you testing him at home yet your self?
> I think you need to be honest with the vet about the food as they will use this information to work out his insulin dose.
> You really should not start altering the carb content of his meals unless you know what his BG is doing at any given point. I do note that he is on a very low dose of caninsulin at the moment so the risk of Hypo is minimal, but I think you need to decide which approach you are going to use and stick to it rather than doing part of what the vet tells you and part of what you decide to do your self.


No. Alphatrack is on order so not for a few days yet. I am only using sheeba until bozita arrives in post. I told her i was going to use bonzita and she gave me a lecture about using royal canin and how that is best suited etc etc. Sometimes its hard to argue my corner "Well the guys on the internet says, or my research says..."... So in the end i nod smile and say ok. Everything else vet is great with i guess as mentioned maybe an "Old" mindset of twice daily feeds and prescription diet. Whilst he is on the smalled 0.5 dose (on vet pen) at least, i thought i would just switch his food completley as he couldnt get anyworse in terms of being lethargic and weak and his levels off the scale! .

Will home test when it arrives thou.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> No. Alphatrack is on order so not for a few days yet. I am only using sheeba until bozita arrives in post. I told her i was going to use bonzita and she gave me a lecture about using royal canin and how that is best suited etc etc. Sometimes its hard to argue my corner "Well the guys on the internet says, or my research says..."... So in the end i nod smile and say ok. Everything else vet is great with i guess as mentioned maybe an "Old" mindset of twice daily feeds and prescription diet. Whilst he is on the smalled 0.5 dose (on vet pen) at least, i thought i would just switch his food completley as he couldnt get anyworse in terms of being lethargic and weak and his levels off the scale! .
> 
> Will home test when it arrives thou.


I had to take the same approach unfortunately. My vet wouldn't accept anything other than RC prescription diet and especially dried was the way to go sadly. And certainly a 'well this is what people on the internet say' opposed to an expert vet opinion would not have gone down at all well. In the end she doesn't ask too many questions anymore, she knows me well enough to know that I will do my own research and we both agree that he is doing great.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

chloe1975 said:


> I had to take the same approach unfortunately. My vet wouldn't accept anything other than RC prescription diet and especially dried was the way to go sadly. And certainly a 'well this is what people on the internet say' opposed to an expert vet opinion would not have gone down at all well. In the end she doesn't ask too many questions anymore, she knows me well enough to know that I will do my own research and we both agree that he is doing great.


But the difference in your case was that you were home testing BG all the way through and you closely followed a specific protocol of Tight Regulation rather than dipping in and out of various different plans. You did not carry on giving the dose of insulin specified by the vet but change the food carb content dramatically.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

My head is just so confused tbh. Dry and prescription Royal "worst thing to do". i try convince vet otherwise and bonzita she disagrees and gives me tehcnical blabble which i dont understand too well so after me weighing up my options and results u guys have i decided to go with advice from here. 

unfortunatley i have to almost gamble a bit because i dont have time to home test all the time, but i do have one on order. He is on the smallest dose 0.5 and his levels range 17-18 his lowest and then goes up to 30-40 (off the chart).... Therfore dramtically changing diet i didnt think would cause a major problem but i agree u need to monitor . Having said that its a case of following orders from VET feeding the dry and letting them deal with the dose, curves etc which i know now is bad for him ... On the dry he was literally on deaths door at least it seemed. Now he is at least showing signs of being relaxed in a good way. I repeated 4-5 times to vet about diet and went in to vets also but they want dry food only and its hard for me to argue my corner.... Bit overwhelmed tbh 

Still he in his room 24/7 is that normal? Take a few weeks on food to pick up??? 

Yes will home test. when alphatrack arrives (but cant test every day).


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

puppy8910club said:


> My head is just so confused tbh. Dry and prescription Royal "worst thing to do". i try convince vet otherwise and bonzita she disagrees and gives me tehcnical blabble which i dont understand too well so after me weighing up my options and results u guys have i decided to go with advice from here.
> 
> unfortunatley i have to almost gamble a bit because i dont have time to home test all the time, but i do have one on order. He is on the smallest dose 0.5 and his levels range 17-18 his lowest and then goes up to 30-40 (off the chart).... Therfore dramtically changing diet i didnt think would cause a major problem but i agree u need to monitor . Having said that its a case of following orders from VET feeding the dry and letting them deal with the dose, curves etc which i know now is bad for him ... On the dry he was literally on deaths door at least it seemed. Now he is at least showing signs of being relaxed in a good way. I repeated 4-5 times to vet about diet and went in to vets also but they want dry food only and its hard for me to argue my corner.... Bit overwhelmed tbh
> 
> ...


It is difficult and I felt really overwhelmed by it all tbh. As @Paddypaws has said without testing it is a risk when you change diets but given his reading are so high and he is on such a low dose I wouldn't have thought it would make him dangerously low. Every cat is different and responds differently. We started on 1u twice daily, then two weeks later the dose was increased to 2u twice daily, some cats are on much higher doses than that. Because I test several times a day practicing TR I can adjust his dose to make sure he is not getting too much or too little based on his reading but without testing I wouldn't have any idea at all.

Once you get the hang of testing which does take practice (took me about a week) then it only takes a few seconds. I didn't know how we would fit everything in when we first started when he was diagnosed as I work fulltime, have two kids, 10 other cats, was breeding Maine Coons and I am in a wheelchair too but it does get easier and less time consuming and we manage at least 4 or 5 tests a day and many more in the early weeks. You can do it but you just have to have some confidence in yourself and your boy that it will be okay but that the first few weeks are going to be tough going


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## Torin. (May 18, 2014)

puppy8910club said:


> gives me tehcnical blabble which i dont understand too well


I can't help with anything else as I have no experience with feline diabetes, but your vet should definitely be talking to you in ways which you understand. If you are confused by something said, ask for them to explain it another way. They should be happy to do this. Sometimes getting things written down for reference when you get home - rather than having to take it all in to remember in the consult - can help too.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Thank you. to be honest i didnt think i would be able to inject insulin but now i almost in a weird way look forward to it to ensure im helping him. He is very sensitive to ears may have to try his paws and i will try to do home testing. 

My options at time was feed him dry prescription and wait for vet tests, or change diet... with his levels high and small amount insulin i took that gamble although i am sure that could be dangerous.

Open question : Was all your cats just sleepy / tired for serveral weeks? He just sleeps and rests most of the day ..


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I was really worried about injecting too, I am really needle phobic and always said I would never be able too, but when faced with the choice of doing it or him dying then there was no choice. And now it doesn't bother me at all. I wouldn't recommend using the pads as they can get infected although I know some people do. Custard isn't a fan of having his ears touched but they do get used to it and on the edge of the ear they don't have many nerve endings so it doesn't hurt them, more of an annoyance. After the first few times the ears bleed more easily 

Custard was really lethargic for the first few weeks and had been in the weeks leading up to his diagnosis. If his readings get too high now (above 16ish) then I do notice that he doesn't want to do anything and just eats and sleeps. You are probably finding that he is drinking a lot. Custard was drinking loads and peeing huge quantities but again he is back to a normal amount now.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

he has stopped drinking lots and lots since i changed him to sheeba in jelly obviously that water based and is not visiting the litter box as much. i will be very interested to see his next curve as with a combination of steriods wearing off and new food hopefully get his numbers down!


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Today although he quickly played when got home went stroke him upstairs and he swipped at me with claws. Tried to stroke again and he went for me  . Nothing vicious but so out of character, he looks so unwell . Going vets in half hour, i do wonder if i am being cruel keeping him going... so hard whats best for him, along with his ashma and allergies


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

It is really tough to start with, I nearly gave up several times during the first few weeks but I kept going as he deserved the chance. In reality it took about a month for me to see any change in Rodney other than the drinking stopping & some weight gain. You can do it, it will just take time. I know what you mean about thinking you wouldn't be able to inject, I was terrified of this to start with but it soon becomes second nature.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> Today although he quickly played when got home went stroke him upstairs and he swipped at me with claws. Tried to stroke again and he went for me  . Nothing vicious but so out of character, he looks so unwell . Going vets in half hour, i do wonder if i am being cruel keeping him going... so hard whats best for him, along with his ashma and allergies


puppyclub, I know you joined the Diabetic cat forum that chloe75 has mentioned, so please have a look at this thread.
http://www.diabeticcatcare.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6680
It tells the true story of a cat who less than a month ago was hospitalised for DKA and was at death's door when he came home . His BG was sky high and he was so weak that he lay in puddles of his own urine.
A few short weeks later that same cat has just gone 34 hours without insulin and is either in remission or pretty darned close


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

His diabetes level was 20 that was 12 hours after and actually a good reading compared as his starting point was 17. However his asmha is now very bad and he heavy breathing and sounds weasy to breath all time. He was having steriods for this but had to stop because diabetes. She took bloods to test for pancreatitis and i am waiting for the result hopefully tonight / tomorrow morning. 

Even if all clear on that front i need to start using atopica (not sure if spelling correct) to help ashma . This is a squirt into mouth job and taste bitter. Having tried something simialr it really really stressed him out and me. He foams at mouth and runs wild. I really really cant do that to him or myself . Its a case of how to move forward as its not just diabtes. if it was i would be quite happy. Yet again another trip to vets, shaven, bloods, stress. i really dont think its fair and i think it could be PTS  im so upset he my baby!


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Results back he doesnt have Pancreitus ! would u beleive it my phone went to voicemail even thou was fine. Didnt get to speak to vet, will wait to morning. Thats good newss, but its his asthma the problem still..........


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

I am sorry to hear that he is not well today I know it is hard and I wondered if it was fair to custard to carry on especially given he is in his teens but I am glad I have. He suffers badly with stress and it tend to cause him to get crystals in his bladder which are life threatening which is why I am glad that now doing most stuff at home he doesn't have to visit the vet often. It was actually a UTI which took him to the vets in the first place. At the time of his diabetes diagnosis he was also diagnosed with hypothyroidism as his T4 was really high but the vet wanted to stabilise his diabetes first as that was most life threatening. Since then once he was stable his T4 has dropped back to normal. 
I think pancreaticitis is common with diabetes, Custard has pepcid when his stomach is unsettled as it can lessen his appetite. xx


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

Well that's good news about the pancreatitis. Could his asthma be made worse by stress from all the visits to the vets? Rodney was literally at deaths door when we got the diagnosis, the first lot of tests didn't show high blood glucose, by the time the 2nd lot was done he had ketones in his urine & back at the vets within a hour. 

I really hope Winston improves, it's obvious you love him very much & you will do the right thing by him either way.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

What about the Aerokat inhaler for his asthma?


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks , its mainly the asthma the key now to control. I will ask about steriods, areokat. Its just how much extra i should be putting him thru with either option. diffcult as guilty if he suffering like now he clearly is, or if he has a chance of a few more years. ultimatley i think we will still be living at vets and if thats actually the correct thing to do .  Would miss him so much so will make sure im certain whats best for HIM. thanks


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

Ultimately only you can decide what is best. But given his age, did you say he was only 5, he is still very young and could have lots of years ahead once these conditions are under control. I think I have been at the vets with one of our cats every week so far this year. But ultimately if the condition is manageable and treatable then it is worth a go. Sometimes things seem pretty hopeless but in a few weeks can dramatically turn around.


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## Matrod (Dec 22, 2014)

I too having been living at the vets between my 2 for the last few months & I have a fair few visits left to go with Rodney & his thyroid. He's 15 now & gets awfully stressed going but if the end result of that is a good quality of life then I'll do it.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

yeah im there pritty much every 3-4 days if not more. Its more the asthma side of things we need control now, i wont give up without a fight , blimey been doing that foe 3 years now and tbh it has affected my life, socially, stress levels etc but i would do it again for him. Just need to see if any soloution can be found to his asthma. something i and he can maange stress free. Will keep u posted.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

Maybe his asthma is 'acting up' because of his raised blood sugars?


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

possibly, will speak vet today again and he has a glucose curve tomorrow, depending on result from that and discussions for on-going asthama i think i have the hardest decision to make ever. On paper all his problems the best thing would be to say goodbye, but its not as easy as that and we are both fighters.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Perhaps he could be getting worse due to food change or just the previous steriod is now wearing off as we had to stop due to diabetes. Difficult situation if im being honest what is best for him and if enough is enough putting him thru so much , visits to vets, stress etc.

So hard this morning he rushed down stairs to eat food, had injection tired to play and rolled around and then after laying upstairs heavy breathing and seems to struggle to breath. Heartbreaking what to do and best for him


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

anyone know if http://www.amazon.co.uk/PetAlive-Am...=UTF8&qid=1433242271&sr=8-1&keywords=Amazapet

Amazapet could help him with his asthma??


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

It might be worth you starting a new thread to ask about support with asthma. Lots of owners on here have cats with asthma but they might not look in on this thread


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks will do. Didnt want to spam many threads but as its different to topic title your right. Thanks


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

So the bozita arrived and he did not like the canned, tried the tetra pack had some then was tapping the wall as in "disgust". He then woofed down the sheeba.

Can anyone tell me if the Sheeba would be any problems feeding him this in terms of his allergies? OR if I should try Felix as alternative or any others I can purchase in UK?

I want to make sure the sheeba wont be causing his asthma getting worse? Gutted he doesn't like bozita L he is a funny cat.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Todays curve at vets was better than before

8am 35 
8am insulin
9am 24
10am 15.3
11 am 9.8

** During 12-1 vet said the vet has quite few cats and he gets stressed so why its jumped up **

12 pm 18.7
1pm 20,7
2pm 15.7
3pm 16
4pm 22.6
5.30 18

ALTHOUGH high its his best readings yet!

Another question :

is Sheeba Fine Flakes Poultry a good food choice ? and is the FIsh Flakes also ok ? He seems to love it just wanted to make sure this is ok.

Secondly - I tried him on Canned Bozita, but did not like. The Tetra Bozita he did eat some but then almost burped / gaged but thats probably as its bigger pieces and not used to it. Out of the 2 Sheeba / Bozita Tetra pack which would you recommened ?

I could try and enforce Bozita but currently he loves Sheeba.

As for winston now home happy again , we have upped his dose of Ventilin (opens up airways) to 1 unit x3 a day and they ordered in atopica for me to try in liquid format which i will collect later. Fingers crossed he / i manage it. VET is pleased with his latest curve, its heading in the right direction and now says continue how i am feeding in terms of sheeba with some biscuits (which i have been doing). Normally 1 sachet sheeba and mixed in a small handful of royal canin, although i may now cut that out and give him more sheeba, was just conerned as its a lot of jelly and not a lot of meat. / chunks.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

puppyclub it is very hard for me to sit by and read this story without replying very bluntly but my conscience will not let me watch this story unfold without trying one more time to get you to understand that unless you take control of the Diabetes and do it very quickly, you and Winston are in a very dangerous place.
I do not pretend to be a vet or have any veterinary training but I DO know how to treat feline diabetes and if you look at my comments below you should see that it is no wonder that your cat is acting depressed and unwell as his BG is raging out of control for MOST of a 12 hour shot cycle. 
Caninsulin just does not stay in a cat's system for anything like 12 hours as cats metabolise it very quickly. At this stage he needs more insulin and he needs it more frequently and if neither you nor the vet can see this then I don't know how else to explain it.
Please buy some ketone test strips from a chemist and check Winston's urine for ketones as this is a serious concern.



puppy8910club said:


> Todays curve at vets was better than before
> 
> 8am 35 This number is terrifyingly high and is putting your cat at substantial risk of life threatening Diabetic Ketoacidosis. Treatment involves hospitalisation on IV fluids for several days and the survival rates are not good.
> 8am insulin
> ...


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Paddypaws said:


> puppyclub it is very hard for me to sit by and read this story without replying very bluntly but my conscience will not let me watch this story unfold without trying one more time to get you to understand that unless you take control of the Diabetes and do it very quickly, you and Winston are in a very dangerous place.
> I do not pretend to be a vet or have any veterinary training but I DO know how to treat feline diabetes and if you look at my comments below you should see that it is no wonder that your cat is acting depressed and unwell as his BG is raging out of control for MOST of a 12 hour shot cycle.
> Caninsulin just does not stay in a cat's system for anything like 12 hours as cats metabolise it very quickly. At this stage he needs more insulin and he needs it more frequently and if neither you nor the vet can see this then I don't know how else to explain it.
> Please buy some ketone test strips from a chemist and check Winston's urine for ketones as this is a serious concern.


I appreciate your feedback and honestly its what i come on here before. I have been overwhelemd with information from here and vets and taking it all in and the conflicting info from vet. I trust the info here. He had a keytone test last week and i will do another test.

Do you think it is better to continue caninsulin or switch to a different UK Insulin?? With work patterns it would be better if a longer acting insulin can be given and i can continue with 2 injections a day. I have alphatrack so will try attempt my first reading later.


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Would keeping his 0.5 insulin and shooting at the following times work? 

I am tied with my work and no one else can inject just me. 

Anytime 5am to 6.30/6.45 am
Anytime 4pm onwards
Anytime up to 11pm. 

Would it work shooting at 6.45> then again at 4pm and then again at 11pm ? 

Or should i persue the route of changing to a longer lasting insulin???


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> I appreciate your feedback and honestly its what i come on here before. I have been overwhelemd with information from here and vets and taking it all in and the conflicting info from vet. I trust the info here. He had a keytone test last week and i will do another test.
> 
> Do you think it is better to continue caninsulin or switch to a different UK Insulin?? With work patterns it would be better if a longer acting insulin can be given and i can continue with 2 injections a day. I have alphatrack so will try attempt my first reading later.


I understand that you feel overwhelmed as I have been in your shoes and seen many others there too. If you read the link in one of my earlier posts you will see the strory of Falafel who has literally gone from death's door to remission in the space of a couple of weeks thanks to Tight Regulation.
I am a big fan of this forum but when it comes to dealing with Diabetes I must refer you back to www.diabeticcatcare.com where we deal with Diabetic cats all day long and only diabetic cats.
I will be blunt again and warn you that I feel time is running out for Winston if you do not act really very quickly and get his blood sugars DOWN.
Caninsulin is good in one way in that it is fast acting and can be helpful to 'fire fight' these high BGs and many people find that the durations ( time between shots) do quickly stretch out so that the schedule is not 6 hourly shots for long. There is NO insulin that lasts a precise and magical 12 hours, it just does not work like that.
If this were my beloved cat I would be taking some immediate holiday from work and getting to grips with the situation.
To be blunt once more.....I have said my piece and given you what I honestly believe is the answer to this situation which is to get over to DCC and follow exactly what they tell you to do. I am afraid I don't have either the time or the emotional resilience to keep on posting the same advice over and over....you don't need to re-invent the wheel, it has been done for you, just follow the plan.


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## Paddypaws (May 4, 2010)

puppy8910club said:


> Would keeping his 0.5 insulin and shooting at the following times work?
> 
> I am tied with my work and no one else can inject just me.
> 
> ...


Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. I cannot and will not give piecemeal advice on this forum as it is neither safe or helpful. 
www.diabeticcatcare.com


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

..


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## puppy8910club (Mar 12, 2014)

Your not rude, i need a kick up arse . Its when i am at vets she was really pleased and said good carry on this is great news and have him back 10 days for a curve. So perhaps my more relaxed attitude come from.

I have re-read posts and protocol. Can you just explain what would be a safe level to "shoot" at i.e no lower than 9 . If his reading was 15 should i still shoot etc ... The readings on page i think are US Metrics?

Thanks and yes i will talk vet and if possible i will take time off work i need to try get home testing to work as not tried yet.


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## chloe1975 (Mar 17, 2013)

@puppy8910club I think Paddypaws is right that there is some good advice on the diabetic cat forum we wouldn't have got where we are without their help. We got Custard onto TR there and to begin with it can mean more frequent shots as the caninsulin doesn't last 12 hours at least not in the beginning. It's not easy as I said I work fulltime and have got 10 other cats (some with their own health issues and diets!) but with a bit of forward planning we got to grips with it. Custard is now on roughly 12 hourly shots again as he is stretching his durations more which means more flexibility for us. In terms of the caninsulin we are still using it and find it quite effective, and I think vets in the UK are reluctant to prescribe anything else, the vet told me there was no other insulin.
You are right about the scales on as they are US measurements. If you see the reading such as 250 then divide by 18 which gives the UK metric.

I know what you mean about the vet as the first curve we did where he was around 18-25 the vet thought was great but we soon found out it wasn't really okay.
PS yes the fish fine flakes is okay too.


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