# Advice on raising a Border Collie pup



## Jammyh (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi there 
Whilst looking on google for methods to stop my girlfriends new 7 week old border collie puppy, Theo, from biting, I stumbled across this very useful forum. There was a very long thread with many suggestions, however none seem to exactly match our problem at the minute, so I figured the best idea was to make my own thread and see what everyone has to say 

Currently my family have 2 border collies, brother and sister aged 12. Since I was young when we got them, I don't remember too much about their training. They also live outside and have done since they were puppies, so I have few clues about house breaking. Also because they had each other to play with, biting humans wasn't much of a problem, although it was discouraged when it happened. I don't recall the methods we used to discourage the biting. In a way they both reassure me, since they're now 12 and have not once bit anyone with their adult teeth, but at the same time I don't know if this is down to the training they had, or whether it is something puppies grow out of. 

There are only 2 problems with Theo at the moment, first is his toilet training, and second is his interest in absolutely anything and his desire to eat it (including me at times).

Starting with his toilet training - He has only been with us for a week now, so understandably I don't expect him to be house trained yet. Our current method is whenever he squats to go to the toilet (1 or 2) we simply say 'Toilet' and move him to his tray, which contains puppy training pads. Thus far, it seems pretty ineffective. If its a wee, hes already finished before we even have chance to get to him (Even when poised over him like a coiled snake when he starts sniffing round!), and poos we usually intercept before he manages to go, but once we put him in his tray and repeat 'toilet' he doesnt understand what it is we want, and he simply doesnt bother going. 

The tray itself is in the corner of the kitchen, and due to the house its not possible to create a small pen area for him, as suggested in various training techniques I've read about. He always seems to go to the toilet very close to this tray, but rarely in it. Sadly the times he has been in the tray, we weren't present to reward him and reinforce it. We do play with him in the garden and reward him lavishly whenever he goes outside, but obviously if hes inside all day we need him to realise when hes not outside he needs to go in the tray.
Have we any hope of training him to go in the tray, or does it definately require a pen/sectioned off area with the floor covered in pads? Also he tends to tear up the pads when we're not around, which is also problematic. Do we need to adopt a different method of marking his toilet target? 

The second problem is his biting/eating. In the first 2 or 3 days, he ate fine. However in the past 3 or 4 days he doesnt seem to be eating, or eating one meal a day. When we let him in the garden, he eats/chews everything (Soil, leaves, stones, plants, and inside furniture, bags, clothes etc). First off, is eating soil/chewing stones normal? I don't remember my dogs doing this and its seems strange to me. I know he's a puppy and is discovering everything but surely after chewing soil he would know its not edible and stop? Instead he carries on and we end up moving him away and saying 'No' before trying to redirect him to a toy. 

This is where the biting problems comes in  Hes a rather stubborn puppy, and sometimes he decides he doesnt care about us, hes having his soil! Thats when he starts growling/barking and biting us. After reading the long link on bite inhibition, we decided on trying this, so we do the 'ow' when he chomps on us hard. However leaving him and ignoring him for a bit then means he goes and eats the soil and hes ended up getting his own way! The other problem is when hes inside and we say 'ow' when he chomps harder, he simply goes and attacks a piece of furniture or plant, so we then have to stop him doing that, and its impossible to ignore him for the bite. 

All the guides we have read are for specific things, for example biting humans, and chewing items you dont want them to chew. None of the guides I have read tell you what to do if they bite you, then while in the ignoring process they bite something else you don't want them too, so I'm totally clueless about how to tackle this.

So far we've tried a few methods. First we had a can of coins, which when he grabbed furniture etc we didnt want him to, we shook, said 'No' firmly and offered an alternative (ball/bone etc). This worked quite well at first, but now he's getting used to the coins he seems to ignore us more. Also this never did make him drop soil etc he saw as his food. We have to physically open him mouth to get stones etc out, say 'No' and let it sink in for a few seconds before praising and giving him another toy. Sometimes this worked, others he just gets annoyed and starts biting etc. Now more often than not he gets angry and goes for you or runs off to find another thing he knows we'll take off him. 
One night he kept doing this and I lost my rag a bit. When he went for a plant and I stopped him, he started barking at me and biting, so I grabbed him and held him down (gently, but so he couldnt bite me or move) and growled loudly, holding his gaze. I'd read prior to this that mothers sometimes did this if their pups continued to misbehave, so although it was out of anger I was in control, and as the method said, the puppy struggled and tried to bite for a few seconds before going limp, at which point I released him, praised and offered to carry on playing. After doing this, he seemed a bit sulky, but still responded to come and sit command and after a minute carried on playing with me. However after a bit he then goes back to the original crime. I understand I may get shouted at for showing aggression to the pup (distrust etc) but it got rid of my anger and he seemed to respond to it. Is this something I should stop immediately or is it a matter of opinion? (Some suggest it, others condemn it).
If none of my methods are seen as appropriate, could you suggest what to do in regards to stopping him biting humans, then diverting to objects we don't want him to? Also how much should we expect him to grow out of? For example will he always chew furniture/clothes/us or is it just while hes young and playful? Would a cage be useful for when he gets giddy for a time out, or is this generally thought not to help?

Reading through this post, I realise its an essay with lots of questions, so I'm sorry for such a long post! But any suggestions/telling me off for doing it wrong would be more than welcome :smilewinkgrin:

James


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2009)

I have sort of read you post and to be honest am having problems digesting it - maybe I am tied - but i'll try in the hope that someone more alert then me comes along soon.

First, The pup only being 7 weeks old is displaying normal behaviour that it would be should it still be with the litter brothers and sisters, You are right is saying that normally mum would correct this behavior! Personally I would not use the technique that you are - pinning the dog down - or showing him who's top dog if you like is not going to work with a young pup!! And mum does not do it this way for your information, she will growl at him or nip/shake his side neck NO - I am not telling yo to do this - merely holding him with a firm NO should be sufficient. Or you couple try simple aversion tactics.

Re the house training - I don't use pads of trays - just plain old newspaper - taking the pup out approx every two to three hours and making a mega fuss when he performs, taking him out when he wakes and when he has eaten is vital - there bladders can only hold for around2-3 hours at this age I believe.

Hope to have helped a little - but will read through again tomorrow and reply again
regards
DT

ps welcome to the forum by the way!


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2009)

Hi,
You need to be consistant and have bucket loads of patience when toilet training
Pups don't have any control over there bladder until they are around 5/6 months old.They need to go out often every 1/2 hour or so,then after playing,feeding,waking etc.

Go out with your pup and stay outside till he performs,give lots of praise and reward with a treat,maybe link a word while he going such as clean.

We used to take both ours upstairs at night and settle them down in their crates by our bed,if they woke during the night,we used to get up and take them out but extending the time each night by 5-10 minutes.

I'm not a fan of using puppy pads or newspaper as I personally think it takes longer to train the puppy as you are giving signals it's ok for them to toilet indoors.

Just a tip NEVER tell your pup off for toileting indoors,just take him out clean the area with bio washing powder and ignore what he has done.By telling a puppy off you will just encourage him to do it where he can't be seen or hide the evidence.
Just remember if he does have accidents it's your fault for not reading the signs,circling and sniffing etc.
Toilet training can be frustrating at times but you will get there eventually 

Now for the biting,have a read of this link The Bite Stops Here


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## Jammyh (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks for the replies 

DT - Yea I had trouble breaking it down myself, and I wrote it lol. In reply to holding him with a firm no, this is usually what I did when trying to stop him repeatedly going for something, and instead of focusing on me he usually starts barking and biting, which is when I did the top dog trick. So far it seems a shock is the only way to get his attention off what he wants, which then allows me to focus his attention back on his toys. Any ideas of another method to shock him/erase the offending item from attention? For some things we just move the item (bags etc) but others (plants) are slightly harder to relocate 

With the toilet training, we originally started with newspapers, but again he saw those as a toy and ripped them up. I read that puppies will go probably once an hour so we're always on the look out for signs, and take him out in this time. Problem is most the time he just goes out and starts misbehaving, so we're so busy trying to stop him doing that and he doesn't have time to think about the toilet. When he does, we praise like mad trust me 


Sallyanne - Thanks for the input too  Me and my gf haven't told him off at all for going inside, however she lives at her dad's house and at the minute we're trying to train her dad at the same time as the puppy (which is more frustrating cos he has no excuse for not understanding!). Her Dad tends to say 'No' when hes going the toilet in the house, which I always feel like slapping him for and hopefully we'll get him to stop that. I think perhaps the main problem at the moment is inconsistency, since he seems too arrogant to use methods we are, such as bite inhibition idea.

On that point, I have already read 'The Bite Stops Here' link, and I aim to follow it, however at the minute the problem is when we do that, he attacks things he isn't meant to (rugs, furniture, blankets etc) so we then have to stop him doing that, so he doesn't have time to reflect on the bite on us.

I really need to stop jabbering on, these posts are too long 
Sorry again


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi,
I also forgot to mention pups should be fed about 4 times a day,can I ask what you are feeding him ?

Some foods are awful and add to the hyper behaviour ?

My dog was awful for biting,feet hands etc,we followed the bite stops here and used to tell him No Biting,he also loved an empty plastic pop bottle to play with,with the top removed.

As mentioned it's all normal puppy behaviour,attacking rugs,furniture etc,when he does this take him outside,if he pucks stones etc up teach the drop it command,call him and show him a treat,when he drops whatever he has use the drop it command,when he drops it praise and reward.
I know what you mean about training your g/f father,I think that will be the hardest part


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## Jammyh (Apr 23, 2009)

At the moment the main part of his food is the food the breeder gave him, which I believe is the Beta Complete Puppy food. However we've started mixing in small amounts of Wagg Complete puppy food, as this is what we we're going to start giving him. He doesn't seem interested in either at the moment, unless you give him individual pieces of the Wagg food, almost as a treat.

That's something I forgot to mention, he still eats treats etc every time we offer it to him, so I don't think hes ill. He's already been checked out by the vet for a breathing worry we had (which is now sorted and he has worming medication for).

I'm a bit worried he's being fussy about his food and has developed a taste for soil, if thats possible 

We'll give the drop command a try, but I think its gonna be hard because he is very defensive over his catches, and usually grabs something quick then runs away from where we are. Hopefully he'll prefer his treats when offered 

Edit: Found out gf's Dad has been mixing in wet/human food to get him to eat, which I'm very annoyed at. He added Cesar dog food once and corn-beef another. This is probably why Theo is being fussy..


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I have a lab and he was toilet trained in 5 days, though he was 10 weeks old, however, don't worry about that, because different breeds learn at different rates.

I would suggest, if it hasn't already been suggested, after your pup has been fed, or drank water, take it outside and say "outside" or something of the like, but only one word otherwise the pup may get confused. Then if it does urinate or defecate praise him to show that it's a good thing. Also, as soon as you get up in the morning, put him outside until he does his business and praise him.

I also used puppy pads inside the house as well as newspaper, I placed the puppy pads in dark places like under tables and such. So at other times if he does his business on the pads or newspaper he should also be praised.

In my experience, plus it's only a suggestion, doing both these things, taking him outside etc might help you a bit. I did this with my lab and after a day or two he started whining at the door, telling us he wanted to go out, not all the time though, so he was still doing some of his business in the house, but he was getting there and by the 5th day he stopped it in the house altogether and always asked to go out.

As for the biting/chewing this is normal behaviour. When we got our puppy, we knew what we were letting ourselves in for and knew he would chew a lot, however, he's now 10 months and most of the chewing has stopped since he now has most of his adult teeth, but some of our furniture has a lot of marks in, however you can buy chew safe toys and teething rings and such to help your pup, as otherwise he'll probably just chew your furniture whilst teething.

Although my Lab is 10 months old, he digs holes in the garden, tries eating soil and still picks up stones and tries to eat them. When I first brought him home, I kept putting my hands in his mouth, [some people might not suggest this at all] but it taught my pup that it should be ok for his owner to take things out of his mouth without growling or barking at me, so I am able to take the stones out of his mouth without any trouble. I hope this helps you a bit.


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## BrodiesMummy (Dec 11, 2008)

Hi i have two Border Collie's who are both still pups at 9 and 12mnths go back to basics with toilet training take him out every half hr - 45 mins i know its a pain but he will eventually get there as for during the night i didnt do this myself but why not try crate training as ive heard of great results or maybe even get up during the night to let him do his business outside leaving it longer througout the night till he's dry!! with regards to biting is it proper biting or mouthing as both mine still mouth but only for comfort - if it is proper biting try yelping when he does it - its what the litter mates would do then give him a toy - nylabone's etc are good and will help teething also - has he maybe got 1 toy that is his favourite over others - Brodie is obsessed with balls so i would give him the ball if he was biting or having a carry on - hope this helps!!! welcome to the forum btw


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

As I also have collies they do need to bond with you when you take them out to toilet play with them to build up that bond. Plus I also only used newspaper to house train on. As he is only learning he will try to eat everything out there mine loved to eat my plants. You could try a ball on a string as they can pick it up easy mine loved one.


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## Jammyh (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks for the input off everyone so far 
Glad to hear he isnt the only puppy who eats weird things!  On Emzieangels point, we do remove things from his mouth, however usually he gets angry at that and starts biting. Should removing from the mouth be taught in a specific way? If we taught him the drop command and he one day didn't want to drop what he had, wouldn't he end up biting when we physically removed it?

Theo does like his ball on a rope, so as often as we can we distract him from whatever he shouldn't be eating, and get him chasing this and reward him when he does start playing with it. Seems to work pretty well, can get him chasing that for a good 10mins before he decides to go after something else. Hopefully we can slowly start getting his attention totally on toys and off furniture!

Thanks again to everyones input so far


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## Bobbie (May 3, 2008)

As to the things in dogs mouth when its in the mouth the dogs rule is it's mine.
Try to offer a tit bit as a swap this usually works you take what they have first.


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Firstly congratulations on your new puppy regarding Toliet training i start mine off by putting them out when they first wake up straight after eating and after playing as these are the times a pup gets excited , also watch for the pup starting to circle as that is usual a sign of the pup needing the toilet , also dont forget to praise him when he does go out side . Regarding the play biting i use NO in a firm voice and a quick shake by the scruff and then completely ignore the pup for a few seconds all this works for me and my pups


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## Jammyh (Apr 23, 2009)

Just an update, but we've been trying the techniques from the 'Biting Stops here' article today, and it seems to be working quite well at the moment! When he started getting giddy and biting harder, he quickly calmed down after 2/3 times of us walking out and just fell asleep. Hopefully we can carry this on and make more progress, so thanks for the help 

Also been a good day with the toilet, he goes now when we let him out and say 'Toilet' 

However, he has had diarrhoea for 2-3 days now. He still isn't eating as regularly as we'd like, maybe 1 or 2 meals a day. He's still drinking and eating treats, and we already had him checked out by a vet last week who gave him worming medicine just incase anything was wrong, but he just isn't interested in his meals. Are there any suggestions for tempting him to eat without including human food in his meals, as I think this is probably the main reason why he isn't satisfied with just puppy food. Or is this just a battle of wills until he gives in and just settles for his normal food?


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## EmzieAngel (Apr 22, 2009)

I'm glad to hear that things are getting better and you're making progress, things just take time with pups. Also glad to hear that the toilet training is going well. =D

I'll leave the food question to someone else because I'm not really sure on the matter and haven't experienced this kind of situation.


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## HobartCollieOwner (Mar 4, 2010)

Our border collie is 12 weeks old, and we have had a lot of success with drop by holding a treat at his nose. He wants that more than anything else he could have in his mouth so he opens his mouth immediately. 
With the diarrohea, it could be because his food was changed too suddenly. Breeders normally give a bag of the food the puppy has been eating, and you are meant to gradually move the dog onto other stuff by mixing the two 75%/25%, 50%/50%, 25%/75% then onto your prefered food. If you are giving the dog canned food or a cheaper brand of dry food, these are normally just made of water & preservatives anyway. Our puppy gobbled down a can of cat food while we weren't looking, and ended up with diarrohea for a day or two. 
We use dry puppy pellets, puppy roll, veggies and a bit of water for dinner, dry pellets, Weetbix, water & milk for breakfast and then before bed he gets warm milk and water. This keeps him full for the day, along with treats he gets during training. The breeder also recommended rice every now and then with veggies as that is filling for them, canned tuna mixed in with stuff cause the oil is good for their coat. They can pretty much eat anything that dogs can have, and seem to enjoy the food. We give our table scraps, but never from the table, only ever in his bowl. This way he knows that he can't just sit and wait for food to drop from our plates. 
Hope this all helps you.


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## ArwenLune (Jan 3, 2010)

This topic is a year old??


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## em007 (Sep 29, 2009)

i say this alot have you tried clicker training as if he/she likes food then this could be a good start. search it online it works wonders. and creats a good bond with u and the dog.


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## kazzy (Oct 13, 2010)

Like you i just got myself a border collie, we got him at 6 weeks old and is now 8 and half weeks.

toilet training- we started with the puppy pads, and everytime he got it right we praised him we did this for the 1st week then i started taking the pad out and saying pee pee (it didn't work) so i chose a small section of the garden where he was to do the toilet. I would give him the command then praise him highly as he was peeing/pooing then pet him when he was finished we would play outside for a short time then back into the house. I did this 1st thing in the morning after eating/playing/when he woke up/ last thing at night (usually 11 which he would last until between 5/6) Also i didn't allow him access to the whole house only one room (living room). if i saw him sniffing/circling i would lift him and take him to area of garden and give him command. Also i would do this if he was in midstream (i would say No firmly and say toilet outside). He does have the odd accident usually when he becomes excited (will still take him outside and say toilet). He has now started to go to the door to indicate he needs to go.

Think it would help if you got a crate, think it helps them to gain more bladder control as they will not eliminate near their bed. I bought one before we got him and this is were he sleeps at night or go into when i can't supervise him or need to go out. Think this will help with chewing the furniture and other things that you don't want too.

Biting/chewing - like you i was finding this a problem which i'm still dealing with. I was saying ouch but it just seemed to agitate him even more also tried the pinning down method but he would become more aggressive. The advice i got from the vet was to say No and get up cross my arms and ignore him if he went for me (has a thing about feet) i would put him in the hall for 5 minutes (all other doors closed) then have him come back in but ignore him for 10 mins. It is quieting him down and usually he will come and lick you. (i'm sure thats his way off saying sorry) It is an ongoing task but you have to be consistent in your approach. I'm sure dogs get the message eventually (here's hoping). 

eating everything in sight- i have been told this is totally normal behaviour as they try to make sense of their world. With my puppy i say drop if he doesn't i take it out his mouth and if he growls i pick him up and take him inside, cutting the play short. I am considering taking him to classes as i know collie need a lot of exercise and mental stimulation. 

Have started clicker training and he's responding really well. Collies need something to do.

hope some of this advice will help


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## leoti (Dec 9, 2007)

Congrats on ur new puppy Kazzy , but 6 weeks was awful young he should have still been with his litter mates till he was 8 weeks old , none of my puppies leave me till 8 weeks old , regarding your plan to take him to training classes get him there as sooner rather than later


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## kazzy (Oct 13, 2010)

leoti said:


> Congrats on ur new puppy Kazzy , but 6 weeks was awful young he should have still been with his litter mates till he was 8 weeks old , none of my puppies leave me till 8 weeks old , regarding your plan to take him to training classes get him there as sooner rather than later


Thanx leoti have just found that out wish i had asked the breeder to keep him for another 2 weeks just hope it doesn't hinder him in any way. Have been reading lots of books but will try and find one that is specific to Noah's breed.

Have begun clicker training and is doing really well, but will defo get him into a training class.


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