# Sticky  Taurine in Cats



## FEWill

Taurine in cats is absolutely critical, and if you feed your cat a homemade diet, it must be supplemented by one of the various forms available. For cats that are feed commercial foods, it is also something that every owner should consider supplementing simply because the cooking process can destroy over half all of its value.

This nutrient is so critical, that a deficiency of it can cause circulation problems as well as cell death in your cats system, as well as low fertility rates and fetal re-absorptions. It can also lead to growth diseases in kittens that do survive the birth process.

What is it?

Taurine is a beta-amino acid that is synthesized in the liver from dietary sulphur containing amino acids, and than absorbed into your cats small intestines. Most all animals can manufacture taurine from other amino acids in their body if they suffer a deficiency, but this is where your cat becomes separated form most every other animal; they can not manufacture it.

It is critical for your cat as contrary to classical amino acids that are included in the very complex proteins, it stays in a free form. Your cat has several tissues that are very rich in taurine and they include the muscles of their heart, the central nervous system, as well as the retina of their eyes. However, perhaps its most important function in your cat is with their biliary salts.

Taurine in cats is also critical in the formation of biliary salts that are essential for the proper digestion of fats in their small intestine. Other animals simply utilize other acids in this critical process if taurine levels become deficient, but for some reason your cats system can not perform this function. Because of this, your cat relies on a dietary intake of taurine and is believed to be one of the major reasons, if not the major reason, that cats must have animal products to survive, as it is not found at all in vegetables.

Your cats eyes:

Taurine in cats also plays several other very important roles in your pet starting with their vision. The retina of your cats eye, which is the membrane that covers the eye and forms pictures, has about 300 times the amount of taurine as compared to what is found in the blood. Simply put, if your cat does not receive enough taurine in their diet, it kills their eyes. It will gradually begin a process that will induce progressive degeneration of the retina, and within two years, your cat becomes totally blind.

By correcting the taurine deficiency it does stop this progression, but the lesions that it causes are not reversible and can still result in damage to your cats vision.

Cardiac functions:

Taurine in cats accounts for about fifty percent of the free amino acids that are found in cats cardiac muscles, and if it deficient, it will quickly lead to what is called cardiomyopathy. This can cause dilation on the left side of your cats heart, which plays a major role in the hearts over function. Dilation can lead to several heart problems and there have been several recent studies that have demonstrated that once the levels are returned back to normal, the dilation stops.

If your cats heart continues to be weak on the left side, it can not aerate the blood flow properly and will quickly lead to both circulation problems as well cell death in their heart.

Reproduction:

Taurine in cats also plays a very important role in your cats reproductive processes. Taurine deficiency can inflict several huge impacts on this process as it can cause a lack of fertility, abortions, as well as what is referred to as fetal re-absorption. However, it can also cause several different abnormalities in the litter as well as stunting the growth of kittens that do survive this process.

Nervous system:
Taurine is also critical for your cats overall nervous system as it is needed to maintain both the development as well of the integrity of this system. If it is not found in the diet or supplemented, it affects blood coagulation, immune reactions, as well as damaging your cats respiratory tissues.

What are the correct levels?

Taurine in cats can be supplied by the diet supplements. If you feed your cat dry food diets, they will require at least 1000 to 1200 mg/kg in their food. The term mg/kg simply implies milligrams per kilogram of food. If your cat has a canned diet, they will require a lot more taurine as they will need at least 2200 to 2500 mg/kg. Both types of commercial foods are cooked and processed, but dry forms hold taurine levels better than do moist or canned foods.

If you choose raw diets or homemade diets, you must supplement these diets with taurnine. Pills and tablets come in 50, 125, 500, 850, as well as 100 mg. levels, but there are also several other very good options. Supplements are also available in chewable tablets and treats, and well as powder and liquid forms. The actual mg that you give your cat will depend on their body weight as well as their current taurine levels and should be left entirely to your veterinarian.

Summary:

Taurine in cats is very often overlooked in homemade diets which can have catastrophic affects on your cat. It is very easy and quite inexpensive to properly supplement this critical amino acid, and if you choose a raw or homemade diet, have the taurine levels tested before, after a few weeks, and than at least a couple of times a year.

If you use conventional diets, you should still have the taurine levels tested as most processed foods can not meet your cats requirements and they can not produce it on their own.

Liquid Vitamins for Humans Cats and Dogs


----------



## billyboysmammy

Another excellent report and please dont think i am picking on you! I'm not! I promise!

There are natural ways of supplementing taurine. Taurine is found in much higher quantities in certain types of muscle. Striated long cell muscle tends to have the highest concentrations, along with cardiac muscle. These muscles are designed to be moved unconciously all the time. Without getting technical here are some of the muscles and foods high in taurine. Shellfish, chicken heart, lamb heart, other heart, cheek, tongue, and the muscles which controll the ribs and breathing movements.

You will hear raw feeders talk about taurine bombs. Basically a taurine bomb is the feeding of a very taurine rich meat product. Taurine is higher in chicken cardiac muscle than ox, so a chook heart is classed as a taurine bomb.

Its important to remember though that mincing, cooking etc will deplete the taurine levels. However it is very simple with a little research to naturally supplement your cats diet rather than using synthetic powders. 

I'm not against synthetic supplementation per se, and i reccomend it in certain cases, however for those people who like me like to feed as natural a diet as possible, then it should be noted that you can ensure your cats are getting their taurine without having to resort to a manufactured powder.

Hope that helps x


----------



## hobbs2004

Thank you Frank for a really interesting overview - very much appreciated!

As you say, even people who feed commercial wet food need to think about supplementing their cat's diet, either with a powder or as BB'sMammy suggest, with some raw meats.

Just to give people an idea of the levels in some of the wet foods where manufacturers declare levels in their analysis.

Applaws - 58mg/kg
Bozita 700mg/kg 
Cosma - 98.5mg/kg
Grau - 1000 mg/kg 
Herrmanns - 190 - 200 mg/kg
Hills - about 700mg/kg
Natures Menu - about 300 mg/kg
Porta 21 - 200 mg/kg
Royal Canin - about 500 - 1000mg/kg
Schesir - 160 mg/kg
Smilla - 985 mg/kg
Yarrah - 140 -400 mg/kg

So none of them contain taurine to the extent to which they should (about 2000-2500mg/kg).

All lot of other manufacturers say that they have enriched their food with taurine but then do not state how much their food now contains 

However, I would disagree with you, Frank, on the use of taurine treats - typically they contain only a pittance of taurine after an awful lot of sugar etc.

Edit: I just found this in terms of taurine levels in raw vs cooked meat in mg/kg (mean/range) based on a post in another forum, from _Taurine concentrations in animal feed ingredients; cooking influences taurine content _(A. R. Spitze et al, 2003). Full article here: www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf

Mouse 240mg

BEEF
Beef, mechanically deboned 77 
Beef carcass 296 
Beef 430 +/-80
Beef, road kill 296 (61-625)	
Beef, lean 313 (277-348)	
Beef, boiled 380 +/- 10	
Ground, <30% fat 363,5 (334-385)
Ground, <25% fat 283 (283-283)	
Ground, premium, <15% fat 398	
Ground, fried, without juices,< 25%fat 501	
Ground, fried, without juices,< 30%fat 509(501-517)	
Ground, sirloin fried with juices 816(775-856)	
Ground,fried with juices, <25%fat 353 (320-385)	
Ground, fried with juices, <30%fat 552(488-616)	
Gullet 804 (790-817)	
Heart 652 ((254-851)	
Kidney 225 (180-247)	
Kidney, baked 138 (130-144)	
Kidney, boiled 76 (68-88)	
Liver 688(401-1023)	
Liver, baked 141 (68-184)	
Liver, boiled 73 (36-95)	
Livers meal, animal 3672	
Lung 956 (781-1033)	
Meat and bonemeal 386 (85-1056)	
Meat meal 1150

POULTRY
Chicken, raw, boneless skinless breast 159 (102-216)
Chicken, fried, with juices, breast............. 186 (145-227)
Chicken, fried without juices, breast .............129 (0)
Chicken, boiled, breast, without juices.........103 (85-120)
Chicken, head and feet……….500 (419-581)
Chicken, necks and backs……….584 (420-990)
Chicken, heart and liver……….1179 (888-1561)
Chicken, liver……….1100

Shrimp, freshwater, de-shelled,large...310 (305-315)
Shrimp, medium........................ .........390 + 130
Shrimp, cooked, small.......................11 0+/- 10


----------



## tthomson

I may have already been told this, but which taurine supplement would you recommend/do you uese? and where can it be purchased from?
Thanks.


----------



## hobbs2004

If you want to go down the supplementary powder route, then I can recommend this: Felini Taurine: great deals on cat food and supplements at zooplus

It comes with a little measuring spoon. Just add to a little tepid water (not hot water as this depletes the taurine levels), stir vigorously and pour over the food. I use an egg cup and do it once a day. Just make sure it dissolves properly. :thumbup:


----------



## tthomson

Great thanks - I take it you can't overdose on it, so if he's already getting enough it won't do any harm to get the extra?


----------



## hobbs2004

As far as I am aware to date there are only studies into what happens when cats do not get enough taurine. The general consensus is that you cannot easily overdose with taurine as it is secreted out with their urine (unlike certain Vitamins that do not get metabolised this way). 

I personally would err on the side of caution and supplement on a daily or twice daily basis than risk them not getting enough.


----------



## billyboysmammy

There is very very little research into the effects of o/d of taurine. However as hobbs has said its not something that is stored in the body. Its excreted by their kidneys.

I would be concerned about getting the balance just right if we were talking about a cat with PKD or other kidney disorder, because i wouldnt want to be putting more strain on their kidneys. For a healthy cat their kidneys should be able to cope with the excess without any difficulty. 

My cats have just had a taurine feast and game of hide n seek. I shut them all into the bathroom while i ran around the house hiding prawns, then they come out and go mad chasing and hunting them all down. Excellent taurine, and great environmental enrichment for my indoor puds! x


----------



## Themis

Interesting report but I just wanted to add that it isn't strictly necessary to supplement if you are raw feeding, as long as you are feeding Taurine rich foods.

My Cat's get a lot of heart, and Chicken or Turkey Thigh which all contain adequate levels of Taurine.


----------



## FEWill

Hi everyone,

let it rip and flow--every article and every topic will always have debates, mistakes, and several thoughts

That is whatt makes this the best site in the world for discussing different views.

Although I do alot of research for each article, I am no where near an expert but do have some insight and practice what I preach

After the raw meat article I had both my daughters switch to raw meat diets for their cats but they must be supplemented with taurine

That is my view and for right now I hold to it simply because of the fact that cats can not produce it. 

By the way--what is a sticky?--what does that mean?

Thanks,
Frank


----------



## bug_girl

I don't mean to be picky hobbs2004, but the figures in your post don't add up.

_"So none of them contain taurine to the extent to which they should (about 2000-2500g/kg)."_
I'm assuming thats just a typo (as it's impossible)- did you mean 2000-2500mg/kg?

If so, where did you get that figure from? As if it's accurate, then it would make it basically impossible for a cat to ever get enough taurine from its diet (using the figures further down).

Even if you fed a cat a diet that consisted entirely of the foods with the highest taurine content (chicken hearts) it'd be getting barely half of it's requirement.

This would beg the question - how do feral cats survive and reproduce? Or indeed pet cats that aren't being given massive doses of taurine supplements?

The following articles suggest a requirement of 500mg/kg (dry weight) for cat food, which would mean that over half the commercial cat foods you listed would contain the requisite amount.

Nutrient Requirements of Cats, Revised Edition, 1986 (page 15)
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies


----------



## hobbs2004

Hello! Yes, that was a typo- thank you for pointing that out! 

Levels are per original post. Incidentally, I have seen the same levels cited in other pubs/articles.


----------



## Janee

Just checked from the thread telling us Food4Cats was closing:



> Originally Posted by Kiskasiberians
> Taurine content of meat, poultry, aquatic and other products (adapted from Zhao Xi-he in Asia Pacific J Clin Nutr, 1994, 3, 131-134; Boren JC, Lochmiller RL, Leslie Jr. DM in Proc Okla Acad Sci, 1996, 76, 55-65; Pasantes-Morales H, Quesada O, Alcocer L, Sanchez-Olea R in Nutr Rep Int, 1989, 40, 793-801 and Laidlaw SA, Grosvenor M, Kopple JD, opiter cited). Values are mg/kg except for quail serum and yogurt which is mg/l.
> Food - Taurine content
> Conch (Strombus gigas) - 8500
> Eel - 910
> Inkfish - 6720
> Pork meat - 1180
> Blood Clam - 6170
> Pork heart - 2000
> Shellfish - 3320
> Pork kidney - 1200
> Crab - 2780
> Pork liver - 420
> Prawn - 1430
> Chicken breast - 260
> Sole - 2560
> Chicken leg - 3780
> Crucial carp - 2050
> Quail muscle - 95-280*
> Silver carp - 900
> Quail serum - 0,50-0,9*
> Hairtail fish - 560
> Tuna canned - 3320
> Yellowfish - 880
> Low-fat plain yogurt - 7.8
> Octopus - 3900
> Shrimp - 1150
> Cat, entire body - 2000
> Cheetah serum - 0.8-6.3
> Cat serum - 6-14


Another source on taurine levels.


----------



## spud

So what levels are in Whiskas? If they are so low why don't more cats go blind?


----------



## hobbs2004

bug_girl said:


> Even if you fed a cat a diet that consisted entirely of the foods with the highest taurine content (chicken hearts) it'd be getting barely half of it's requirement.
> 
> This would beg the question - how do feral cats survive and reproduce? Or indeed pet cats that aren't being given massive doses of taurine supplements?
> 
> The following articles suggest a requirement of 500mg/kg (dry weight) for cat food, which would mean that over half the commercial cat foods you listed would contain the requisite amount.


The figures in the OP's post come from guidelines issued by Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO). Similar levels are also recommended by the European equivalent FEDIAF.

According to AFFCO and FEDIAF, the taurine content in dry food needs to be at least 1000mg/kg and 2000mg/kg for wet food to ensure minimum maintenance. FEDIAF even suggests 2500mg/kg taurine levels for wet commercial food for growth and reproduction (http://www.fediaf.org/FEDIAF Nutritional Guidelines -Publication 2- 2008.pdf). If this link doesn't work now that they have redesigned their site, then it can be accessed from this page: http://www.fediaf.org/prepared-pet-food/recipes-and-processing/

Spud - I have no idea how much taurine is in Whiskas. What does the UK packet say? Whiskas US contains 500mg/kg but I am not sure whether that is the case for UK foods too.

Most complete commercial cat foods contain taurine to SOME extent, so a cat nowadays is very unlikely to suffer from extreme taurine deficiencies as outlined in pottenger's cats.

Bug-girl; taurine is not just found in heart. Cats eating a raw diet get a lot of taurine from other sources, most notably liver, tongue and dark muscle meats.

The above weights for commercial cat food would not apply to raw food as the food is not cooked and therefore no amino acids are destroyed in the cooking/processing processes. Yes, mincing does decrease the taurine content but nothing like cooking does.


----------



## ccarriee

Can someone please advise how much taurine supplement I should use daily? Would 500mg per cat be enough? I've researched this many, many times but have come up with radically different suggestions!

My two young cats weigh approximately 5.8kg and 3.8kg so obviously I'm prepared to vary the amount. I'm raw feeding with particular meats which are supposedly high in taurine content, such as heart and kidney, chicken thigh and turkey thigh, various pork meat, oily fish and shellfish, plus some liver and raw egg for their respective benefits. I'm also supplementing salmon oil. However, one of my cats isn't too keen on the tough heart or munching on bone so I'm investigating the supplementation of taurine and calcium.

(Will repost some of this in another thread specifically regarding calcium)


----------



## hobbs2004

ccarriee said:


> Can someone please advise how much taurine supplement I should use daily? Would 500mg per cat be enough? I've researched this many, many times but have come up with radically different suggestions!
> 
> My two young cats weigh approximately 5.8kg and 3.8kg so obviously I'm prepared to vary the amount. I'm raw feeding with particular meats which are supposedly high in taurine content, such as heart and kidney, chicken thigh and turkey thigh, various pork meat, oily fish and shellfish, plus some liver and raw egg for their respective benefits. I'm also supplementing salmon oil. However, one of my cats isn't too keen on the tough heart or munching on bone so I'm investigating the supplementation of taurine and calcium.
> 
> (Will repost some of this in another thread specifically regarding calcium)


Do you make up your own food? If yes, I add about 2gs of taurine to a 1kg of meat if you prepare it in advance to freeze. If you would rather supplement daily, then I would only add about 200mg per day per cat.

Make sense?


----------



## BSH

I have bought some Felini taurin supplement from Zooplus (I do know you can get in cheaper elsewhere!). It comes with a little measuring spoon but no instructions re: dosing. How much taurine does one of these spoons contain? How much should I give a cat in a day? Thanks


----------



## hobbs2004

This measuring spoon can hold up to 500mg I believe. Felini says that you can feed up to one measuring spoonful a day. But you cannot overdose your cat on it. It is water soluble so anything that isn't needed is excreted out. 

When I make up my cats food I put in up to 3g per 1.5kg. That means that they are getting about a max 200-250mg of taurine powder with their food a day.


----------



## BSH

Thank you!


----------



## ccarriee

For some reason, my computer has refused to load this forum for a whole month! which is why I wasn't able to reply. But thank you hobbs, I am now using the taurine supplement and have decided that a daily dose of 250g for each cat seems appropriate


----------



## AnnaK

Good morning all! Another interesting thread, there is so much to learn about cat nutrition! Am I right in thinking that it is worth adding taurine no matter what food one is giving the cats/kittens? I am keen to do the best I can for my kittens but at the moment we cannot really go above a food bill of £50/£55 a month for the pair, is it possible to give an optimum diet whithin this budget? 
All help and knowledge very gratefully appreciated.


----------



## hobbs2004

Personally, yes I would supplement. Maybe feed some raw heart once or twice a week or get your hands on some powder (either from a pet shop, but more expensive, or from a sports/health food shop, which is cheaper) and add some dissolved powder (about 250-500mg per cat) to their food once or twice a week. As it is water soluble any excess is secreted out.


----------



## AnnaK

Thanks again for your wisdom, I will seek out some heart and see how it goes. One heart between two kittens (21 weeks) or one each?


----------



## hobbs2004

If you are lucky enough to get chicken hearts then one/two each a couple of times a week. But my bet is that you will find lamb heart and ox heart most easily (particularly if you have a morrisons or a good butcher). These things are huge. 

Don't feed a whole lamb's heart though. Some cats get a runny tum from too much heart. Cut it up into small pieces, which will probably take you back to a biology lesson in school. Feed about half to the two cats that day and the other half a few days later.

You can freeze the cut-up pieces and defrost for a day in the fridge before feeding.


----------



## AnnaK

Brilliant! Thanks again. After reading your A-Z wet food thread I have bought some Grau and Smilla from Zooplus and a few Bozita and I will start with the hearts and then gradually increase the raw food amount. As my partner is a recent convert back from vegetarianism I think it will have to be gradual or else I will be doing every feed myself! Very glad I joined this forum.:thumbup:


----------



## hobbs2004

There are a few vegetarian raw feeders on here - including me and my OH!


----------



## ccarriee

It's funny you say that, Anna... I'm actually a life-long veggie but my personal view is, cats have such different nutritional requirements from us which are rather specific by comparison, and if we choose to keep them then it's our responsibility to meet those requirements, regardless of the decisions we've made about our own diets. However, my other veggie friends think I'm nuts doing this for raw feeding!


----------



## AnnaK

I agree Carrie and I do want to make the complete conversion, at the moment I need to research total costs and although my partner loves the kitties as much as I do he is also rather squeamish so I think gradual is the way to go. I personally get very irate with vegetarians who force their philosophy on theie pets, who as you say have very specific requirements and also have no choice!
Big respect to all the veggie raw feeders.


----------



## Chez87

ccarriee said:


> It's funny you say that, Anna... I'm actually a life-long veggie but my personal view is, cats have such different nutritional requirements from us which are rather specific by comparison, and if we choose to keep them then it's our responsibility to meet those requirements, regardless of the decisions we've made about our own diets. However, my other veggie friends think I'm nuts doing this for raw feeding!


I work with somebody who is vegan, and I have recently been told she feeds her dog on a vegan diet too! :eek6:


----------



## AnnaK

A vegan dog! I know there is a lot of veggie and vegan dog and cat food out there and I am sure the people who use it or make their own are convinced their animals are healthy, but please! If you want a vegan pet then get a rabbit.
If a dog was offered a carrot and a beef bone which one would he go for first? 
Actually knowing dogs he would probably eat them both but I bet the bone would be first choice.
What was your reply to your colleague?


----------



## lil_angel_

> If you want a vegan pet then get a rabbit.


well said!!!

i am a life long veggie too but would never ever feed an animal designed to consume meat and utilise meat to fill its needs a vegan diet! thats insane. anyway i do have a question about taurine, i bought some of the powder supplement from zooplus only its all in german and im english hahaha .

i know how much to give, but when mixing it with water, how much water do i use? does it matter how concentrated it is or what? i have been using a teeny bit of water to mix the powder with then mixing that with my cats wet food....


----------



## hobbs2004

http://www.petforums.co.uk/1768661-post19.html

Ah, ok, you know how much to use. Just use a little water - just enough to dissolve (needs some stirring though; I use an eggcup), add to the food. Voilà. - done! You could use more water if you want to increase the water content of the food overall. Doesn't really matter.


----------



## lil_angel_

ahh thanks for that


----------



## billyboysmammy

AnnaK said:


> I know there is a lot of veggie and vegan dog and cat food out there and I am sure the people who use it or make their own are convinced their animals are healthy, but please! If you want a vegan pet then get a rabbit.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Considering my views on nutrition you might be suprised that i own a vegetarian cat. I am not for one minute advocating this type of diet, Luna had to switch due to medical reasons, however not all of the weirdo's who buy veggie cat food are doing it to force their feeding choices onto their pets. Nothing would please me more than to see luna tucking into a big bowl of raw and not suffering the consequences. I am convinced as you say that my girl is happier and healthier on her dry (shudders) vegetarian (double shudder) diet, than she was on any of the commercial/exclusion/raw diets.
> 
> http://www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/113826-confession-time.html This is my confession lol, anyone who knows me will realise how strong my views are on quality cat nutrition.


----------



## AnnaK

Hi Billyboysmammy

Of course I was not including people who have to do it because they have no choice and it is in the cats best interests, merely those who are not feeding meat because of their life choices. Thanks for the confession!
I feel ashamed by how little I knew about the nutritional needs for cats before we got our kittens!
Also how I still can't work out how to upload pics of them!


----------



## tyrole

Can Taurine be bought in health food shops?
I forgot to add some to my Zooplus order  Max is now eating half a tin of 
Animonda and the rest raw from Raw to Go


----------



## hobbs2004

Try sport shops Tyrole.


----------



## Paddypaws

Oh b***ger, just made up a lovely batch of raw and forgot to add extra taurine!


----------



## tyrole

hobbs2004 said:


> Try sport shops Tyrole.


Thank you


----------



## HollyM

Does anyone know if lamb is a good source of taurine? Sorry if i have missed the mention.


----------



## hobbs2004

It is not so much the type of animal Holly that is relevant to taurine but the type of animal part that is being used. So muscles that are being used, such as heart, intestines, tongue, leg meat, shoulder meat etc are going to contain more taurine than breast meat.

For the differences in taurine depending on animal heart, for example, check out the Spitze pdf. Edit, there is precious little heart in that comparison. So perhaps do a comparison by leg vs breast meat.


----------



## tyrole

hobbs2004 said:


> It is not so much the type of animal Holly that is relevant to taurine but the type of animal part that is being used. So muscles that are being used, such as heart, intestines, tongue, leg meat, shoulder meat etc are going to contain more taurine than breast meat.
> 
> For the differences in taurine depending on animal heart, for example, check out the Spitze pdf.


Talking of heart. Max loves the heart mince  I have just spoken to Lesley at Raw to Go who suggested trying him with heart chunks.


----------



## HollyM

hobbs2004 said:


> It is not so much the type of animal Holly that is relevant to taurine but the type of animal part that is being used. So muscles that are being used, such as heart, intestines, tongue, leg meat, shoulder meat etc are going to contain more taurine than breast meat.
> 
> For the differences in taurine depending on animal heart, for example, check out the Spitze pdf. Edit, there is precious little heart in that comparison. So perhaps do a comparison by leg vs breast meat.


 Yes i feed heart etc but for the other info i will check that out. Thanks.


----------



## Chez87

I have bought some taurine, but it doesn't come with a measuring spoon, anyone have any idea where I can get one?


----------



## tenryhamilton

In cats, taurine is essential for the formation of bile salts that are necessary for proper digestion of fats in the small intestine. Unlike other species, the cat can not use a second amino acid taurine for this function. Therefore, the cat was an important requirement for taurine, which can only be achieved through the hepatic synthesis of sulfur amino acids in the diet.


----------



## Sorcha

tenryhamilton said:


> In cats, taurine is essential for the formation of bile salts that are necessary for proper digestion of fats in the small intestine. Unlike other species, the cat can not use a second amino acid taurine for this function. Therefore, the cat was an important requirement for taurine, which can only be achieved through the hepatic synthesis of sulfur amino acids in the diet.


Sorry, but did you copy that bit of text from petngarden.com and tried to alter it a bit, making it sound slightly different? I was just wondering about this, as what you're saying doesn't make sense, so I googled 
Was this the bit of text you were trying to put down here?

In cats, taurine is indispensable for the formation of biliary salts, that are necessary for the good digestion of fats in the small intestine. Contrary to other species, the cat cannot use another amino-acid than taurine for this function. Consequently, the cat has got an important requirement for taurine that cannot be met by the hepatic synthesis from sulphured amino-acids present in the diet. The cat relies on its dietary intake of taurine.

Chez, you won't really need a measuring spoon if you are mixing the taurine through every meal. You will just need to add a knife tip of taurine and a little water to dissolve it.


----------



## Chez87

Didn't want to add it to every meal, but maybe once a day. I figured this was a bit impractical and have decided to add to each bag of my minces...so 1lb (450g) bags. So I should use about 1g, is that correct?

Thanks though Sorcha!


----------



## hobbs2004

Perfect. As said before, it is water soluble so any excess will just be secreted out.


----------



## Cerridwen

If no one's posted this here you go, a super source of information on taurine levels in various kind of meats (and other foods): http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf


----------



## hobbs2004

Cerridwen said:


> If no one's posted this here you go, a super source of information on taurine levels in various kind of meats (and other foods): http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf


Right there on page 1  But it is such an excellent resource there is absolutely no harm in posting a link again!


----------



## Dulally

Sorcha said:


> Sorry, but did you copy that bit of text from petngarden.com and tried to alter it a bit, making it sound slightly different? I was just wondering about this, as what you're saying doesn't make sense, so I googled
> Was this the bit of text you were trying to put down here?
> 
> In cats, taurine is indispensable for the formation of biliary salts, that are necessary for the good digestion of fats in the small intestine. Contrary to other species, the cat cannot use another amino-acid than taurine for this function. Consequently, the cat has got an important requirement for taurine that cannot be met by the hepatic synthesis from sulphured amino-acids present in the diet. The cat relies on its dietary intake of taurine.
> 
> Chez, you won't really need a measuring spoon if you are mixing the taurine through every meal. You will just need to add a knife tip of taurine and a little water to dissolve it.


Er, can you buy taurine? I feel really ignorant now  as I've been scouring the net and butchers' counters in an effort to buy meat with the highest taurine content. NOW if it's marketed on its own, please tell me where/how I may buy it. Pretty please


----------



## Shayden

go to the butchers and buy some heart! that will do


----------



## Dozymoo

Does anyone know if the supplement powder has a strong taste? I have tried using in a couple of times a week my cats regular food and they turn their noses up.

They're fussy cats usually (I can only get them to eat fish flavoured foods) but there is something about the taurine that they don't like. I dissolve about 250mg in a few mls of water and mix it in with their tuna sachets but they catch on every time...

Any thoughts or suggestions?


----------



## Dante

Dulally said:


> Er, can you buy taurine? I feel really ignorant now  as I've been scouring the net and butchers' counters in an effort to buy meat with the highest taurine content. NOW if it's marketed on its own, please tell me where/how I may buy it. Pretty please


Here Dulally, this is what I and a few others use (comes with a measuring spoon):

Felini Taurine: great deals on cat food and supplements at zooplus

I believe you can buy it from various sports shops aswell in powder form.

@ Dozymoo, mine have never noticed it on their food. I normally end up adding more water to it than I intend to and it ends up making its own 'gravy' mixed with the blood from the raw food so perhaps they just can't tell the difference? - I'm not sure how it tastes though, sorry!


----------



## Dozymoo

Dante said:


> @ Dozymoo, mine have never noticed it on their food. I normally end up adding more water to it than I intend to and it ends up making its own 'gravy' mixed with the blood from the raw food so perhaps they just can't tell the difference? - I'm not sure how it tastes though, sorry!


thanks Dante. I'll keep persevering with it for now. Hopefully they'll come around...


----------



## hobbs2004

Dulally said:


> Er, can you buy taurine? I feel really ignorant now  as I've been scouring the net and butchers' counters in an effort to buy meat with the highest taurine content. NOW if it's marketed on its own, please tell me where/how I may buy it. Pretty please


Yes, you can buy powdered taurine. You can buy the Feline Complete that Dante links to on zooplus or you can get cheaper variants on ebay or from sport shops.

Or you can look through the linked pdf in the quote below to find the most taurine-rich foods.

Are you raw feeding or just wanting to supplement your cat's commercial food?



Cerridwen said:


> If no one's posted this here you go, a super source of information on taurine levels in various kind of meats (and other foods): http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf





Dozymoo said:


> Does anyone know if the supplement powder has a strong taste? I have tried using in a couple of times a week my cats regular food and they turn their noses up.
> 
> They're fussy cats usually (I can only get them to eat fish flavoured foods) but there is something about the taurine that they don't like. I dissolve about 250mg in a few mls of water and mix it in with their tuna sachets but they catch on every time...
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions?


The powder should be absolutely tasteless Dozymoo. What are you using and are you dissolving it thoroughly in water before adding it to the food?


----------



## Dozymoo

hobbs2004 said:


> The powder should be absolutely tasteless Dozymoo. What are you using and are you dissolving it thoroughly in water before adding it to the food?


Hi Hobbs, 
I'm using the Felini Taurine from zooplus. I'm doing about a scoop full dissolved in about half an egg cup of water and sharing it between the two cats and it's always completely dissolved. As it's tasteless, maybe what's putting them off is the texture of the food after it's been watered down... I'll certainly keep at it and hopefully they'll adjust. Maybe a bit less water will do the trick.


----------



## hobbs2004

Dozymoo said:


> Hi Hobbs,
> I'm using the Felini Taurine from zooplus. I'm doing about a scoop full dissolved in about half an egg cup of water and sharing it between the two cats and it's always completely dissolved. As it's tasteless, maybe what's putting them off is the texture of the food after it's been watered down... I'll certainly keep at it and hopefully they'll adjust. Maybe a bit less water will do the trick.


Yes, perhaps try less water. Cats can be such fussy creatures :tongue_smilie:


----------



## Peter Galbavy

I'm still confused. The list of taurine in a variety of meats and seafood was interesting but the implied requirement in other posts for 2,000-2,500mg/kg is missing a couple of units/dimensions - is this per cat per day or per kg of body weight of cat or what ?

I will try to do some more online research myself, but without a time period and size-of-cat the quantity required has no meaning. Or am I just being thick and missing something obvious?


----------



## hobbs2004

Peter Galbavy said:


> I'm still confused. The list of taurine in a variety of meats and seafood was interesting but the implied requirement in other posts for 2,000-2,500mg/kg is missing a couple of units/dimensions - is this per cat per day or per kg of body weight of cat or what ?
> 
> I will try to do some more online research myself, but without a time period and size-of-cat the quantity required has no meaning. Or am I just being thick and missing something obvious?


Ha, good point PG. According to FEDIAF and their nutritional guidelines for wet and dry cat food, 100g dry matter dry food should contain 0.10g, while 100g dry matter of wet food should contain 0.20g. For wet kitten food, it should be slightly higher with 0.25g/100g.

However, the suggested feeding rec of felini complete is per cat and they suggest feeding between 200mg and 500mg to top up the taurine content of the food.

Does that help?


----------



## Dulally

hobbs2004 said:


> Yes, you can buy powdered taurine. You can buy the Feline Complete that Dante links to on zooplus or you can get cheaper variants on ebay or from sport shops.
> 
> Or you can look through the linked pdf in the quote below to find the most taurine-rich foods.
> 
> Are you raw feeding or just wanting to supplement your cat's commercial food?
> 
> The powder should be absolutely tasteless Dozymoo. What are you using and are you dissolving it thoroughly in water before adding it to the food?


Thank you so much for the info on powderd taurine. It's on my to-do list tomorrow.
I've tried feeding Buddy raw beef, tilapia (fish), liver and heart - he won't touch it. He started well on Natures Menu, With RC kitten kibble, progressed to Applaws & their kibble and is now on a mix of Orijen & Applaws kibble and human chicken, turkey and 
an occasional mouthful of John West kipper pate it had 0.6g, which I thought permissable as he'll get it once in a blue moon. Any bright, better ideas please ?


----------



## hobbs2004

Dulally said:


> Thank you so much for the info on powderd taurine. It's on my to-do list tomorrow.
> I've tried feeding Buddy raw beef, tilapia (fish), liver and heart - he won't touch it. He started well on Natures Menu, With RC kitten kibble, progressed to Applaws & their kibble and is now on a mix of Orijen & Applaws kibble and human chicken, turkey and
> an occasional mouthful of John West kipper pate it had 0.6g, which I thought permissable as he'll get it once in a blue moon. Any bright, better ideas please ?


Dulally, as it is not really about taurine and to keep the sticky relatively on topic, could you create a new thread in health and nutrition with the above post re dietary advice? Thank you!


----------



## Guest

Can you bake taurine into home made cat biscuits or is it better to mix it into their raw food?


----------



## Nattie

I feed a mostly wet diet (Mac's, Petnatur, Grau) and would like to boost the taurine levels with some _*dried*_ chicken hearts. It reckons there's about 5000mg/kg of taurine - does that sound about right? If so, how many grams of chicken hearts per day or week?


----------



## Howlet

I have tried taurine powder and it does have a very slight tang to it. 

Plus after drinking it, it makes my belly slightly quesy.


----------



## Treaclesmum

Does anyone know how much Taurine is in Hilife?

I know it says complete but doesn't list it on all the foods, only on some of them


----------



## hobbs2004

Treaclesmum said:


> Does anyone know how much Taurine is in Hilife?
> 
> I know it says complete but doesn't list it on all the foods, only on some of them


You might be best off getting in touch with Hilife to see what they say. To complicate matters, taurine is, I believe, often only listed in the added amount; not in how much the food contains overall (naturally and added combined).


----------



## aliecia

We have been giving our cats vitamins since they were kittens, due to the fact that it has taurine and we wanted to make sure that they were getting enough of this essential vitamin. I have read about the effects of a deficit in taurine, and our veterinarian, in fact three different ones told us that there isn't a negative effect if they get too much taurine. We give them 1/2 teaspoon Excel Kittyvite Vitamine Paste, malt flavor daily. My husband and I are healthy and we still take a daily vitamin just to ensure we are getting all the vitamins we need, so why shouldn't our cats also get a daily vitamin to ensure that their needs are also being met.


----------



## Cookieandme

I ordered some from eBay and it has arrived today, however they must have assumed it was for me, as they sent me a sachet of strawberry night time muscle recovery powder.


----------



## hobbs2004

aliecia said:


> *Excel Kittyvite Vitamine Paste*, malt flavor daily. My husband and I are healthy and we still take a daily vitamin just to ensure we are getting all the vitamins we need, so why shouldn't our cats also get a daily vitamin to ensure that their needs are also being met.


Just checked this out and it doesn't seem to contain any taurine. 

I would always prefer to use a pure taurine supplement instead of one that includes taurine amongst its list.


----------



## Treaclesmum

Cookieandme said:


> I ordered some from eBay and it has arrived today, however they must have assumed it was for me, as they sent me a sachet of strawberry night time muscle recovery powder.


I would never buy pet supplements from Ebay as I could never be sure what was in them...


----------



## Shadow And Lightning

Can the taurine be mixed in with the food even if another supplement is being added such as salmon oil?


----------



## caela

billyboysmammy said:


> My cats have just had a taurine feast and game of hide n seek. I shut them all into the bathroom while i ran around the house hiding prawns, then they come out and go mad chasing and hunting them all down. Excellent taurine, and great environmental enrichment for my indoor puds! x


Lol this is such a great idea, just make sure they get all the prawns or you might have a nasty smell  I give my cats sprats sometimes and they take them out their food bowl and hide them round the house I swear I'm so scared of fish as well I nearly had a heart-attack when I almost trod on one by our bed!!! Ewwww! hmy:

Can I just ask as well how often should you feed prawns because my two love them so if I get a good deal on prawns they get some (but unfortunately for them, both me n my boyf like prawns too, so I open a packet only to be swarmed by everyone in the house and they are all gone in seconds). Is there mercury in prawns too? x


----------



## Treaclesmum

Can I just confirm, how much Taurine do the Zooplus brands contain?? Coz I just checked the Animonda and it doesn't list it, although it may be more of a natural inclusion rather than an additive, am I right?? 

Hopefully, it should be more than the supermarket brands...?


----------



## Austin

caela said:


> Lol this is such a great idea, just make sure they get all the prawns or you might have a nasty smell  I give my cats sprats sometimes and they take them out their food bowl and hide them round the house I swear I'm so scared of fish as well I nearly had a heart-attack when I almost trod on one by our bed!!! Ewwww! hmy:
> 
> Can I just ask as well how often should you feed prawns because my two love them so if I get a good deal on prawns they get some (but unfortunately for them, both me n my boyf like prawns too, so I open a packet only to be swarmed by everyone in the house and they are all gone in seconds). Is there mercury in prawns too? x


I'd be interested to know this too - can you overfeed prawns? I just started trying my youngest two on these and after an extended playtime with their first one, they now practically inhale them. If they had alternating chicken hearts and prawns each day (one a day) in addition to their commercial food, is that sufficient taurine?

Also, looking at the Woldsway site, do their rabbit minces contain enough taurine for cats, as they are aimed at both cats and dogs? I was thinking of starting them on that maybe once or twice a week maximum to begin with, but if they enjoy it enough and the raw starts to outweigh the canned wet food, obviously making sure they are getting enough taurine from their diet would be of greater concern.

(On a side note, the bone-in rabbit pieces seem ideal for keeping their teeth nice and clean, but just how safe are they? Are the bones likely to get stuck in their throats? It's this fear that has made me wary of trying chicken wings...)


----------



## Austin

Further to my last post, a friend of mine asked Woldsway about the taurine content of their foods and they said they add 0.2% taurine to their whole rabbit minces but don't currently add it to their rabbit/chicken combo minces because of the chicken hearts in the mix. Hope that helps anyone else who was considering whether to order from them or not. I'm probably going to try some of their products soon and I'll post in (what I hope is) the relevant raw feeding thread rather than this one to let folks know what my furry pals think of their first 'complete' raw experience...


----------



## hobbs2004

Austin said:


> Further to my last post, a friend of mine asked Woldsway about the taurine content of their foods and they said they add 0.2% taurine to their whole rabbit minces but don't currently add it to their rabbit/chicken combo minces because of the chicken hearts in the mix.


Just to clarify, Woldsway add taurine to some of their minces? Do they have any analysis as to how much taurine their food contains then?

Incidentally, I am not sure whether their argument that they don't need to add taurine to their chicken/rabbit mix because it contains chicken hearts is a valid one. Not only do they include rabbit heart in their rabbit mince but also it is the processing (mincing) that denatures the taurine. So, personally, I would take their info - without knowing more about potential analyses they have done across their range - with a pinch of salt, or rather with a pinch of added taurine.


----------



## Austin

That's all they said apparently - they add 0.2% taurine to the whole rabbit mince but 'are still deciding whether to add it to any of their other minces which already have chicken hearts in the mix'. I was planning on adding chunks of gizzard, prawn and/or heart to the minces on rotation anyway (which my little monsters already love) so mine would have something to chew, but whether that would be enough of an additive to meet the necessary daily requirement or not I don't know.

I suppose if they're still looking for customer feedback whether to add the same amount of taurine to _all_ their minces or not it might be a good idea for all the raw feeders on here to email them and let them know we think it would be a good idea! Strength in numbers, and all that.


----------



## marbleandwotsit

Maybe I am being thick, but reading the first couple of posts Hobbs is saying that cats need their food to contain 2000mg per kg of food. If chicken hearts contain less than this and they seem to be one of the most taurine rich foods, why does cat food have to contain more than raw meat amount?


----------



## hobbs2004

marbleandwotsit said:


> Maybe I am being thick, but reading the first couple of posts Hobbs is saying that cats need their food to contain 2000mg per kg of food. If chicken hearts contain less than this and they seem to be one of the most taurine rich foods, why does cat food have to contain more than raw meat amount?


No, you are not being thick. That is because the 2000mg/kg guideline refers to cooked processed food. Because of the manufacturing process of wet food, which uses water to cook the meat, depletes taurine (which is a water-soluble amino acid). So, a cooked diet (unless it is baked but even there are differences) needs more taurine than the raw equivalent.

Does that help?


----------



## marbleandwotsit

Thanks Hobbs, I am still not clear, does that figure of 2000mg relate to the product BEFORE it is cooked or after. And what about the taurine amounts listed on the tin, is that the amount before or after the food is cooked, e.g my tins of Grau say 1000mg per kg? is that not enough then?


----------



## cookiemom

Hmm, I think the taurine amounts relate to the finished product as it is in the tin, say like a tin of peas, the nutrional declaration is for the finished tin of peas not for raw peas, you could check with the manufacturer about whether its added before or after, I always thought after, what would be the point in adding it before as it will just be destroyed.

The 1000mg though does seem to be below what is recommended a per current guidelines.


----------



## cookiemom

While trawling about and looking for further info on the amount of taurine in natural food ie mice I stumble on this, which is helpful as it includes that the mice have been ground and frozen, also gives the amount of taurine needed based on a cats weight:

Is enough Taurine in TCfeline?


----------



## Cherbe3

On the topic of taurine, can you use just taurine powder, like ones human use and such, or is the feline taurine, is there a different?


----------



## hobbs2004

cookiemom said:


> Hmm, I think the taurine amounts relate to the finished product as it is in the tin, say like a tin of peas, the nutrional declaration is for the finished tin of peas not for raw peas, you could check with the manufacturer about whether its added before or after, I always thought after, what would be the point in adding it before as it will just be destroyed.
> 
> The 1000mg though does seem to be below what is recommended a per current guidelines.


Not quite CM; it depends on whether the taurine is listed as part of the analysis or the additives. If listed as part of the additive then that only gives the amount that is added, not the overall content (which then also includes the amount already present in the raw products). To make matters worse though it is often unclear which the value refers to. And still not all manufacturers declare one or the other - I believe largely because as soon something gets declared it needs to be verifiable (could be talking out of my $%^& here though).


----------



## hobbs2004

Cherbe3 said:


> On the topic of taurine, can you use just taurine powder, like ones human use and such, or is the feline taurine, is there a different?


Oh yes, you can use the human stuff - just make sure it is pure.


----------



## cookiemom

hobbs2004 said:


> Not quite CM; it depends on whether the taurine is listed as part of the analysis or the additives. If listed as part of the additive then that only gives the amount that is added, not the overall content (which then also includes the amount already present in the raw products). To make matters worse though it is often unclear which the value refers to. And still not all manufacturers declare one or the other - I believe largely because as soon something gets declared it needs to be verifiable (could be talking out of my $%^& here though).


Blimey that's as clear as mud then! I just found an old tetrapack in the back of a cupboard to see what it said and indeed it doesn't mention taurine at all, is there not a set thingummy on how these things should be declared? Must admit I was just going by what I felt was common sense in as much as you'd expect them to say what you should be getting when you dish it up!


----------



## nach123

So after reading this, I went to the butchers and got sme chicken liver. My cat looked at it, smelt it and turned her nose up!!! I couldn't believe it. Iv seen her hunt and kill and So I assumed any kind of raw meat would go down a treat - clearly not.. I can't believe I have been such a ignorant pet owner... And I hate how I have turned my cat into a commercialised cat! Turning her nose up at a cat delicacy like chicken liver ,


----------



## kawaiiangel

this thread has been really informative, and i'm just about to go and buy the feline taurine powder from zooplus. fingers crossed lottie will take to it :thumbup:


----------



## petrus

Interesting article!


----------



## kawaiiangel

damn! i bought the feline taurine powder on zooplus for £22.99 (200gm) and found a 250g of taurine on amazon for £4.95 (+£1.95 delivery). argh, kicking myself! :mad2:


----------



## kawaiiangel

hobbs2004 said:


> This measuring spoon can hold up to 500mg I believe. Felini says that you can feed up to one measuring spoonful a day. But you cannot overdose your cat on it. It is water soluble so anything that isn't needed is excreted out.
> 
> When I make up my cats food I put in up to 3g per 1.5kg. That means that they are getting about a max 200-250mg of taurine powder with their food a day.


sorry to ask a stupid question, but what does that work out per teaspoonful? i never got a measuring spoon with my zooplus order 

Doh! Found the spoon buried in the tub lol


----------



## kimouette

I just bought pure taurine from a german online store. On the bottle it says it is 99.2% pure taurine.

Would you guys be able to help me calculate how much taurine I should mix with my cat's food? She eats more than one brand, but here are 2 of the main ones :

- Mac's duck chicken and turkey :


> Crude protein........ 10.9%
> Crude fat .............. 6.6%
> Crude fiber ........... 0.3%
> Ash .................... 2.2%
> Moisture ............. 80.0%
> 
> ADDITIVES PER KG
> Vitamin A .......... 3000 IU
> Vitamin D3 .......... 200 IU
> Vitamin E ............. 30 mg
> *Taurine .............. 1500 mg*


-Catz finefood No.23 - Chicken & Duck :


> Crude	protein 11.10%
> Crude oils and fats	6.40%
> Crude fiber 0.30%
> Ash 1.90%
> Moisture 80.00%
> Calcium 0.2-0.3%
> Phosphorus 0.15-0.25%
> Sodium 0.2-0.3%
> Magnesium 0.03-0.04%
> Potassium 0.17 to 0.25%
> 
> Beef 50% (consisting of muscle, heart, lung and liver), 24.15% water, duck, 20% (consisting of the heart and liver), cranberries 3%, 2% Aloe Vera, Rosemary 0.5%, rapeseed oil 0 2%, *Taurine 0.15%*.


Knowing that my cat eats 225g of food everyday, how much taurine should I add?

If possible, could you guys explain how exactly you make that calculation? I never know if the amount of taurine in canned food is based on a dry matter basis or not!

And also, should I keep the Taurine bottle in the fridge after opening?

Thanks for your help!!:thumbup:


----------



## cookiemom

There's a discussion on the previous page about whether or not the taurine is added before or after and then it all depends on how the manufacturer declares it! if you really wanted to know about each brand, you could get in touch with them and see what they say.

At a recommended rate of 2000mg/kg then you'd want about 200mg to go with 200g of food, this would take you over the recommended given that there is some in the food already, was there a measure with the taurine or any indication in the instructions about how to measure?


----------



## heleni

hi guys! its a very interesting article indeed. i hapend to have a 15y old female cat with a very rare illness,and canot eat dry or wet food,so i cook! and i'm a chef,so she learned to eat gourmet,and i dont think its always good for her! so liver raw or beef i must give her..ok,she plucks also too a lot,is this suspicious? thanks


----------



## wildaboutcats

Hi every one, i am very confused with all this taurine. Only i make most of my cats food myself, but they get cooked. I understand, that they must have taurine as well as other stuff. Meat (chicken, chicken livers, heart) all contain taurine, so how do you know how much they are getting is one of my questions. If they are getting their meat and heart etc (also COOKED fish twice a week also contains taurine and fish oils/omega 3 etc..... not tuna!). I have also read on the internet that there is a big hype about all these cats vitamins etc --- which i am sure has an element of truth. 
I do use some conditioning tabs which are full of "goodness"..... too many vits and minerals to list! 
I do understand that some taurine is lost in the cooking process, but this is only a proportion of it. So i do not understand all the big to do about taurine really. The "taurine bombs" like chicken hearts etc can always be chopped up after cooking or cooked very lightly. 
Anyway my cats are fit and well, and have lovely shiny coats etc. I guess, no one really knows just how much taurine they should really have. Many years ago there was none of this. 

Also, The additives they put into the mass produced stuff in the supermarkets are added because the rubbish and unhealthy stuff they use and cook it up for about 2 days, so there is none/little nutrient left in it.


----------



## spid

NOt quite sure what you are asking,

But taurine is essential for heart health - experiments were done years back and cats without sufficient taurine in their diet developed taurine deficiency HCM - which was then reversed by adding the taurine back into the diet. 

Now I'm not an expert so I don't know how much is needed etc. Sorry. Yes some taurine gets lost in the cooking. 

Many years ago most cats got the majority of their food by hunting (nice taurine bombs then). 

Again, it's all about risk - do you risk HCM or do you make sure your cat gets enough? It's your choice.


----------



## wildaboutcats

I suppose i am just saying that if you ensure your cat gets a "good" diet with respect to taurine then why pay and add more. You can ensure they get "lots" of taurine with the meat and adding in the heart etc. I think people pay a lot of excess money for taurine tabs which may or may not be pure. I think some one else said they bought ?96% pure taurine, if it is 96% then it is not pure. Anyway, i do accept what you are saying and either way, you must make sure they get what is thought to be a good diet. :thumbup: I suppose, there is just more than one way of doing things in life, some routes are just more expensive than others. Very interesting topic!


----------



## wildaboutcats

I have just found an article on taurine and how much you should add or have in their diet.  I do find it a bit strange that this lady is saying that if they get too much taurine it is o.k. as it is passed out any way, but then say's she would rather avoid adding supplements. I suppose this might be what i was trying to say in a way, perhaps i just prefer a more "natural" way of cats getting their taurine. Some humans take vitamin supplements, which are not necessarily needed, as you should be eating a balanced healthy diet (unless there is a medical reason!). The calculation is useful though!

Answers: How Much Taurine Should I Add?
Written by Margaret Gates 
Thursday, August 19, 2010 01:04 PM

Question: How much taurine should there be in the raw frozen diets? The brand I have says each patty contains 0.06%. Another brand I have says their chicken variety has 0.064% and the rabbit only 0.04%. Both companies claim to be providing complete and balanced diets in their raw formulas. It's so hard to know. I would really rather avoid adding supplements if I can help it.

There is no "precise" feline requirement for taurine, as many factors influence requirement levels. These include protein source, dietary fiber levels, food processing, sulfur-containing amino acid content and the metabolic needs of the individual cat.¹ Recommended ranges for an average cat fall between 35 and 250 mg a day.² The AAFCO lists .2% as the minimum for canned/wet foods (dry matter percentage), so here are some calculations: ³

The first brand you mentioned lists the taurine content of .06% on an "as fed" basis, not on a dry matter basis, so we have to convert. The moisture content is 70%, so dry matter is 30%. So, .06 divided by 30 = .002 or .2%, exactly the required minimum.

To measure in ounces, we convert again: 1 oz = 28.35 grams, 28.35 x .2% = .0567gr or 56.7 mg. So there is about 56.7 mg of taurine per ounce of food. Multiply that by how many ounces you feed a day to get your total. An average cat would probably eat about four ounces of food a day, so the daily taurine intake would be over 200 mg.

Both grinding and freezing reduce available taurine, but by how much is not clear. That is why I add supplemental taurine when making homemade or supplementing pre-ground meat/bone/organ mixes. Taurine is not toxic in cats and is water-soluble, so any extra the cat can't use just gets flushed out in their urine.⁴ I would rather add some extra taurine to the food and have a cat with expensive pee than risk a taurine deficiency which could lead to serious heart problems or death.

Note: The Feline Nutrition Education Society provides feline health and nutrition information as a public service. Diagnosis and treatment of specific conditions should always be in consultation with your own veterinarian. The Feline Nutrition Education Society disclaims all warranties and liability related to the veterinary advice and information provided on this site.

If you have a question you'd like answered, please send them to [email protected]. We respond to every question. If your question would be helpful to others, we may post it in Answers, too.

People Who Read This Article Also Read:
Answers: What is Arginine and Is It Essential?
Answers: How Much Heart is Too Much?
Rice Isn't Nice
Diabetes and Obesity: Preventable Epidemics
Margaret Gates is the founder of the Feline Nutrition Education Society.

1. Claudia A. Kirk, Jacques Debraekeleer and P. Jane Armstrong, "Normal Cats," Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th ed. Walsworth Publishing Company, 2000, 301-302.
James G. Morris, "Idiosyncratic Nutrient Requirements of Cats Appear to be Diet-induced Evolutionary Adaptations," Nutrition Research Reviews 15, 2002, 153-168.
2. I. H. Burger, K. C. Barnett, "The Taurine Requirement of the Adult Cat," Journal of Small Animal Practice 23, no. 9, April 10, 2008, 533-537.
3. AAFCO Nutrient Requirements for Cats Table 47, The Merck Veterinary Manual, 2008.
4. U.S. National Research Council Ad Hoc Committee on Dog and Cat Nutrition, Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats, 2006, 137.


----------



## kimouette

> Taurine is not toxic in cats and is water-soluble, so any extra the cat can't use just gets flushed out in their urine.⁴ I would rather add some extra taurine to the food and have a cat with expensive pee than risk a taurine deficiency which could lead to serious heart problems or death.


No way!!

If you look at the current thread, so many people have been asking about their specific cat's condition/food/food analysis.
If really extra taurine is just flushed, then it means we can just add plenty of taurine to our cat's food and not even worry about the quantity!

Can anyone else confirm that this is the case... that extra taurine is not toxic?


----------



## hobbs2004

kimouette said:


> No way!!
> 
> If you look at the current thread, so many people have been asking about their specific cat's condition/food/food analysis.
> If really extra taurine is just flushed, then it means we can just add plenty of taurine to our cat's food and not even worry about the quantity!
> 
> Can anyone else confirm that this is the case... that extra taurine is not toxic?


As the poster had pointed out, taurine is water-soluble so any excess gets secreted out. So, you cannot easily feed an excess as you can with fat-soluble vitamins (say) as these get stored in the body.

Incidentally, the vast majority of studies that have been done have looked at the effect of not feeding enough rather than on feeding too much. However, one perhaps ought to keep in mind that any excess of even water-soluble vitamins/amino acids etc need to be secreted out by the kidney; but, as long as you are still sensible with the amount you add...

When you use a taurine powder do make sure that it is dissolved in water as it is an irritant.

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/efsajournal/doc/2736.pdf


----------



## kimouette

Thanks Hobbs for all the infos and for that very detailed PDF!
I still can't believe it! I have bought a huge bottle of taurine couple of months ago and wanted to add some to my 14 year old cat's food who is starting to have cataracts and couple of "normal aging issues". But since I had read about that "2000-2500mg/kg" taurine recommendation I was too scared to add any to my cat's food : I thought 2000 to 2500 was a minimum/ maximum dosage and that anything above or under could be just as much harmfull. And since the food she is currently eating ALMOST meets that requirement, I was scared to play arround with such tiny dosage!

Thanks a lot for clearing that out! I will finally add taurine to my cat's food and feel comfortable doing it !


----------



## wildaboutcats

hi everyone. 

I am sorry but i still do not understand all this taurine. From what i have read, if you feed raw then some say you do not need to add taurine, as this is in the meat, chicken livers, heart and some in the egg yolks (along with other excellent vitamins & minerals) etc, etc. Recipes for raw feeding do vary as far as my research takes me. Some say to add taurine and some say it is simply not necessary. To me it does sound a bit "silly" to add taurine if it is already there. One recipe said that you absolutely do not have to add taurine to raw home made diet. So why would you? It is like saying you do not believe that there is taurine in the meat. So is the taurine in it or not? Do ferrel cats buy taurine and add it to their raw diets? Do they keep a tally of how much taurine in the mouse or bird they have eaten that day? No, i think not, so it does not need to be so exact, the same as we do not need to be so exact about the quantity of vitamin A we eat every day. If you cook the meat in homemade diets then it recommends you add a small amount (as the meat already contains taurine, but just tops it up because of the cooking process). But, compared to bought sachets of food like whiskers etc etc where many, many people do not add taurine anyway, probably never evan heard of it, their cats are not suffering from taurine deficiencies, so why is that then? And why is there not a load of blind cats walking around where i live? Some cat foods do not add taurine at all, and they claim to be a balanced diet, but the cats appear fine. So why would a diet rich in chicken meat/chicken livers etc, even when cooked, need taurine added, when compared to ready made stuff it is a lot healthier anyway and must have more taurine in it as well by virtue of the fact it is not made of crap. It simple just does not add up! It is all very well reading research papers, but you also need to understand the research methods used, not all research is good research, in fact quite a lot is very poorly done ---- this is true. So unless you understand the scientific pitfalls of all the different type of research etc you are scuppered.  So it is not simple about reading the results and/or conclusions. 

There also seems to be a difference of opinion on many issues of cats food, not just taurine. Some times i think "we" will never really know exactly what cats should have, despite the research done to date. 

One thing that does annoy me, is some of the very expensive cat foods, which still contain unhealthy stuff in it. Commonly charge 99pence or more for one small sachet which has chicken in it and the broth (so there is only a small amount of chicken in it) and then they put rice in it!!  

Also, years ago, there was no such thing as cat food or taurine additives etc etc. Cats where feed on home made food and/or raw because thats all there was (apart from the farm cats which caught their own food). Like a vet said the reason why they live longer today is due to advances in vet medicines, vaccinations, surgical procedures, treatments etc, etc.

Any replies would be most welcome of course!


----------



## Cosmo Curry

I'm sceptical about forums generally mainly on account of the bad information that's posted by the self styled 'experts' that are always to be found in them. Ive just read through the 11 pages in this thread where various people claim to understand the topic at hand only to find that the very important and fundemental questions posted by wildaboutcats remain unanswered. 

These basic questions where asked over 2 months ago why have they not been clarified?


----------



## spid

Because it's a forum not a scientific site, and sometimes things slip through the net - MAYBE you would like to answer the said question?

EDIT: just read back and Wildaboutcats answered her own question and gave references - why would we need to answer it again?!


----------



## wildaboutcats

Hi Spid & Cosmo Curry. I think you both have some good points. I suppose i was just trying to discuss the Taurine -- problem, perhaps in an attempt to find out about other peoples views, which seem to differ. I think sometimes you can acquire a little knowledge about some think and away you go! It is not uncommon. Sometimes it just helps to "hear" what others have to say. It's like, various articles cannot evan decide on how much taurine a cat should have. I think, it may be difficult on forums to discuss things because your not talking face to face, so all you get is the writing. I did not think i had answered myself, i am sure there are lots of people who could look things up on the internet and post on here, about Taurine, and they may all say some think different. So perhaps there is not an absolute answer? Anyway, please do not worry about it, i certainly did not mean any harm. 
Thank you for your contributions and help.


----------



## Cosmo Curry

I'm a first time cat owner that knows nothing at all about the care of cats. I stumbled on this site by accident in an attempt to gain info. On the question of nutrition I'm not interested in opinions unless they are scientifically grounded or based on long experience. Its simply to important. Wildaboutcats has asked key questions that still remain unanswered. Maybe in your latest post you have gone some way to help educate people and answer your own question when you say ''So perhaps there is not an absolute answer?'' 

Its not hard to understand why some vets are against home prepared diets.

For the record Ive taken the decision to feed raw but I dont want to be responsible for any health problems as a result due to lack of knowledge, ignorance or mere opinion.


----------



## Space Chick

I don't mean to be rude Cosmo Curry, but you have contradicted yourself.

In your first post you have said how you are sceptical of Internet forums due to self styled experts. Then in your second post, you said you came across this forum as you are looking for advice and are reading the advice.

So which is it? 

I agree, that there can be some misleading information at times on forums, but equally there is am awful lot of quality helpful information by people who are genuinely experts (Hobbs here for example). I certainly do not consider myself to be an expert but I am well read on the subject.

You say you are a first time cat owner, and I applaud you for taking nutrition seriously.

I feed my two cats one meal of quality tinned per day and one raw meal per day... My logic being, if I do lack anything in the raw (I don't think I do) then I can make up for this in the wet. 

From my understanding, taurine is found in muscles that work hard, so there is the most taurine in the heart, then more in leg meat.... Next to none in breast etc. However, with changes in farming today, some animals to not get the required exercise they need due to intensive farming methods, so taurine levels in meat have dropped. For this reason, I only buy the same excellent quality free range meat from the farmers market for my cats that I do for myself. Even so, I still add taurine, as any excess is secreted through the urine, and I'd rather "waste" my money and give them too much than not enough.

Hope this helps, it's only repeating what has been said before, but gives some extra information. Although I am neither a scientist or someone with decades of experience either, so feel free to ignore me


----------



## wildaboutcats

Space Chick said:


> I don't mean to be rude Cosmo Curry, but you have contradicted yourself.
> 
> In your first post you have said how you are sceptical of Internet forums due to self styled experts. Then in your second post, you said you came across this forum as you are looking for advice and are reading the advice.
> 
> So which is it?
> 
> I agree, that there can be some misleading information at times on forums, but equally there is am awful lot of quality helpful information by people who are genuinely experts (Hobbs here for example). I certainly do not consider myself to be an expert but I am well read on the subject.
> 
> You say you are a first time cat owner, and I applaud you for taking nutrition seriously.
> 
> I feed my two cats one meal of quality tinned per day and one raw meal per day... My logic being, if I do lack anything in the raw (I don't think I do) then I can make up for this in the wet.
> 
> From my understanding, taurine is found in muscles that work hard, so there is the most taurine in the heart, then more in leg meat.... Next to none in breast etc. However, with changes in farming today, some animals to not get the required exercise they need due to intensive farming methods, so taurine levels in meat have dropped. For this reason, I only buy the same excellent quality free range meat from the farmers market for my cats that I do for myself. Even so, I still add taurine, as any excess is secreted through the urine, and I'd rather "waste" my money and give them too much than not enough.
> 
> Hope this helps, it's only repeating what has been said before, but gives some extra information. Although I am neither a scientist or someone with decades of experience either, so feel free to ignore me


HI, how do you know the tined meat you give is quality? If it is tinned then there must be some sort of preservative in it. I think any tinned meat cannot be of "good" quality. That is like saying tinned food for humans is good quality, and it is not. All ready made meals are unhealthy, some more than others, of course.
I think i already said it, but why do people add taurine when it is already in the meat? If cats where not getting sufficient then there would be many more (1000's) which would be going blind, etc, etc. Many people do not know about taurine.
Also, i read about taurine itself, is not necessarily good for cats, if it is the manufactured taurine. Cats in the wild do not add taurine just in case to top themselves up.


----------



## hobbs2004

I don't get your query - sorry. Re raw food, right at the beginning of this thread is a link to a paper that contains the taurine levels for some meats raw and cooked. So, if you make up the food yourself (raw), that should give you some guidance as to how much taurine you are feeding in the raw food yourself (there are some sources though that say that processing - i.e. mincing - depletes some of the taurine content in raw food; there are apparently other sources that also claim that taurine levels get depleted as part of the freezing process).

I know you say that cats in the wild wouldn't add taurine to their food - that is true and according to some sources mice are the animals with the highest concentration of taurine (apparently in the region of 240mg/100g). I don't think anyone really has a clue as to how much taurine is in the other smaller mammals and insects cats would prey on. And that is exactly where a lot of the guess-work comes in. We know little enough about mice as it is - and even less about their other prey - yet most feeders try to approximate a "mouse" using available raw meats (and organ meats) that are rather more limited than what mother nature naturally provides for for cats. 

However, little is known (largely because humans can synthesise taurine themselves - so don't need to take it in with their food, unlike cats, yet most of the available information on taurine relates to humans; though thankfully the Feline Nutrition society now is going to explore the "mouse" in more detail - something that is long overdue) what happens to taurine levels (and other nutrients for that matter) once the animal has been slaughtered, hung, displayed on shelves etc. 

The available guidelines for taurine in cat food largely refer to cooked tinned food (2000mg/1kg) and dry food (1500mg/1kg), so they aren't necessarily of help to raw feeders. I agree, there are many, oftentimes widely diverging, values being bantered about on sites and links and it is hard to know whom to believe and trust. Hopefully, the work by the Feline Nutrition Society will help throw much needed light on this area - as well as many others. 

I personally add taurine to the meat I make up myself.


----------



## Sussexplumber

hobbs2004 said:


> I don't get your query - sorry. Re raw food, right at the beginning of this thread is a link to a paper that contains the taurine levels for some meats raw and cooked. So, if you make up the food yourself (raw), that should give you some guidance as to how much taurine you are feeding in the raw food yourself (there are some sources though that say that processing - i.e. mincing - depletes some of the taurine content in raw food; there are apparently other sources that also claim that taurine levels get depleted as part of the freezing process).
> 
> I know you say that cats in the wild wouldn't add taurine to their food - that is true and according to some sources mice are the animals with the highest concentration of taurine (apparently in the region of 240mg/100g). I don't think anyone really has a clue as to how much taurine is in the other smaller mammals and insects cats would prey on. And that is exactly where a lot of the guess-work comes in. We know little enough about mice as it is - and even less about their other prey - yet most feeders try to approximate a "mouse" using available raw meats (and organ meats) that are rather more limited than what mother nature naturally provides for for cats.
> 
> However, little is known (largely because humans can synthesise taurine themselves - so don't need to take it in with their food, unlike cats, yet most of the available information on taurine relates to humans; though thankfully the Feline Nutrition society now is going to explore the "mouse" in more detail - something that is long overdue) what happens to taurine levels (and other nutrients for that matter) once the animal has been slaughtered, hung, displayed on shelves etc.
> 
> The available guidelines for taurine in cat food largely refer to cooked tinned food (2000mg/1kg) and dry food (1500mg/1kg), so they aren't necessarily of help to raw feeders. I agree, there are many, oftentimes widely diverging, values being bantered about on sites and links and it is hard to know whom to believe and trust. Hopefully, the work by the Feline Nutrition Society will help throw much needed light on this area - as well as many others.
> 
> I personally add taurine to the meat I make up myself.


I just give mine plenty of variety and she appears to thrive on it. I try to give her a wide variety of foods (day old chick/beef or lamb heart/tinned catfood/pouches/pate and I want her to be used to all different types of food, but no dry. If I`m cooking a stew then she often gets a small lump of beef as a treat. But day old chicks are a hit! I like this because not only are they cheap but are a whole food, no additives and (esp when thawed out in warm water) very rich in moisture. Particularly first thing in the morning, shes full of beans and when she comes in from using the garden, I have to stand back from the back door due to the speed she comes charging in at! lol


----------



## Space Chick

wildaboutcats said:


> HI, how do you know the tined meat you give is quality? If it is tinned then there must be some sort of preservative in it. I think any tinned meat cannot be of "good" quality. That is like saying tinned food for humans is good quality, and it is not. All ready made meals are unhealthy, some more than others, of course.


I do not feed tinned "meat" I feed quality tinned cat food, food that has minimal grains and high meat content, and has the nutritional breakdown for optimal health.

As previously mentioned, I also make my own raw to which I do add taurine.

Some tinned food is good for humans.... Tinned tomatoes, chickpeas etc.... Then there are rubbish tinned bologneses, currys etc....

The same is true of cat food tins.... Grau, Amonida carny etc is good..... Whiskars, Kitekat etc is bad!

I appreciate you learning, but not everything is as black and white as you are trying to make out


----------



## wildaboutcats

Space Chick said:


> I do not feed tinned "meat" I feed quality tinned cat food, food that has minimal grains and high meat content, and has the nutritional breakdown for optimal health.
> 
> As previously mentioned, I also make my own raw to which I do add taurine.
> 
> Some tinned food is good for humans.... Tinned tomatoes, chickpeas etc.... Then there are rubbish tinned bologneses, currys etc....
> 
> The same is true of cat food tins.... Grau, Amonida carny etc is good..... Whiskars, Kitekat etc is bad!
> 
> I appreciate you learning, but not everything is as black and white as you are trying to make out


Hi I did not mean "tinned meat" in that way, never mind. Grains are not good. Tinned tomatoes/chick peas/butter beans etc are not good for you --- read the label. Now, fresh on the other hand is a different ball game. I think i would have to disagree with you about tinned food being healthy for humans, even some of the so called fresh is not much good and not of great quality either. Maybe, we should define what we mean by healthy. 
I'm glad you take the time to make your own raw food --- (thats a compliment by the way!):thumbup:. I do not disagree with anyone adding taurine if they like. I like to give mine raw too, but they also get some cooked as well. I think this could be a useful debate, and that is all it is meant to be. In my grand mothers time there was no such thing as taurine additives or any other additives! and there was NO cat food either! All of a sudden people are making cat food and giving it posh names and selling it at ridiculous prices, and claiming all sorts of stuff. It's the same with the salmon oil that they say you should add to home made food, since when? Humans are also meant to eat a balanced diet, aren't we? Cats can still get all their nutritional requirements (thats if the scientists know what these are and can agree on them), but they do not necessarily need them ALL in EVERY meal EVERY day, in the wild it does not work that way. Neither does it work like that for us. I don't sit down calculating how much vitamins & minerals mine are getting, that would be almost impossible. Whats all this about black & white?


----------



## hobbs2004

wildaboutcats said:


> In my grand mothers time there was no such thing as taurine additives or any other additives! and there was NO cat food either!


Well, not sure how old your grandma is but they probably didn't even know about taurine and the importance of it at her time. Have a read around the history of taurine and cats (if that is something that interests you) and you will come across Pottenger who found out just how important taurine is for our feline friends.

Since around then, possibly also coinciding with cats become "pets" rather than just pest control, research into cat nutrition and cats' nutritional needs - though still lagging behind that of canines - has taken off.

(Salmon oil - well, that can be added to food because of changed farming practices. If you are certain that your meat comes from animals that are grass-fed, then you might not need to supplement with stuff containing omega 3. You might not want to supplement with omega 3 at all - irrespective of what meat you feed - but there might be benefits to be had for doing so. Your call).


----------



## Space Chick

wildaboutcats said:


> Tinned tomatoes/chick peas/butter beans etc are not good for you --- read the label.


NHS Myth Buster... see number 4.

Food & exercise myths that aren

I know _some_ can have added salt and sugar but not all do, and they count towards your 5 a day as much as fresh.

Anyhow, this is off topic now, so I'll leave it there


----------



## jordanandmeeko

how do you delete posts!


----------



## jordanandmeeko

FEWill said:


> What are the correct levels?
> 
> Taurine in cats can be supplied by the diet supplements. If you feed your cat dry food diets, they will require at least 1000 to 1200 mg/kg in their food. The term mg/kg simply implies milligrams per kilogram of food. If your cat has a canned diet, they will require a lot more taurine as they will need at least 2200 to 2500 mg/kg. Both types of commercial foods are cooked and processed, but dry forms hold taurine levels better than do moist or canned foods.
> 
> Liquid Vitamins for Humans Cats and Dogs


What are the correct levels?

Taurine in cats can be supplied by the diet supplements. If you feed your cat dry food diets, they will require at least 1000 to 1200 mg/kg in their food. The term mg/kg simply implies milligrams per kilogram of food. If your cat has a canned diet, they will require a lot more taurine as they will need at least 2200 to 2500 mg/kg. Both types of commercial foods are cooked and processed, but dry forms hold taurine levels better than do moist or canned foods.

Why do cats need different levels of Taurine, dependent on what type of food they are fed?

I just want to clarify this as I am confused. I understand that cooking the food in different ways will affect the levels, but surely if a taurine reading is given for individuals foods, the number and level of taurine is what it is in each individual food....

So I do understand why double the amount of Taurine is needed for a cat that eats wet food compared to dry...

(I hope you can understand what I am saying and help me. Many thanks!!!!)

Incidentially my cat is fed on a mostly wet diet, but some dry is also offered. Now I admit I am not very good at maths and calculations so.. if the wet food says it has 445mg of Taurine.... and it is in a can of 400g what is this in kg. or is it just 445mg/kg? and so i would need to supplement another 1000+ mg of taurine etc?


----------



## Space Chick

jordanandmeeko said:


> Why do cats need different levels of Taurine, dependent on what type of food they are fed?
> 
> So I do understand why double the amount of Taurine is needed for a cat that eats wet food compared to dry...
> 
> Incidentially my cat is fed on a mostly wet diet, but some dry is also offered. Now I admit I am not very good at maths and calculations so.. if the wet food says it has 445mg of Taurine.... and it is in a can of 400g what is this in kg. or is it just 445mg/kg? and so i would need to supplement another 1000+ mg of taurine etc?


Ok, I'll answer the first two questions in one... As this is a wet/dry set of questions. Basically when a cat eats dry food, it eats far less in terms of weight of the food, due to fact that water has been removed (one of the reasons that so many of us are anti dry, but that's another matter). With wet food they eat more grams.

So for an example (figures plucked from my head) a cat may only need 75g of dried food a day but 200g of wet food.... So the higher taurine in dry is due to the lower weight eaten. With both diets they should get the same amount of taurine.

As for the second question, you'd need to look at the analysis as to whether its per tin, or per kg. if its the can then multiply by 2.5 to get the amount per kilo, so it'll be roughly (early morning head maths here!) 1110mg taurine per kilo.

Hope this helps!


----------



## jordanandmeeko

Space Chick said:


> As for the second question, you'd need to look at the analysis as to whether its per tin, or per kg. if its the can then multiply by 2.5 to get the amount per kilo, so it'll be roughly (early morning head maths here!) 1110mg taurine per kilo.
> 
> Hope this helps!


Thankyou very much for your help. I have since found out it is per kg. 
As you are knowledgeable on the subject and I have read many different things.. what in your opinion is the required level of taurine? and how often is this level required... as in every meal, per week etc?

One other thing if you also wouldnt mind sharing your opinion or anyone else is that I have read that livers for example are a good source of Taurine, however I have read in a book, that was published not long ago that cats fed on liver are suspectable to a deficiency of too much calcium as it said that the required level of taurine is found in just 5 mg of liver..?? It is my understanding that everything else I have read somewhat disputes this.

Thankyou, sorry I am just a bit confused!


----------



## Space Chick

Liver has taurine, but you find higher quantities in muscles that work hard.... Heart and thighs are classic examples.

Cats have issues with too much liver due to its Vitamin A content, as too much vitamin a is damaging.

I should add, I am by no means an expert on this subject, just have read a lot around it. I still have several questions myself.

As for the amount, I'm not entirely sure. However, I do know you can't overdose taurine as they excrete it in urine if they have too much. So I probably add more taurine than I need to when I make my raw feed.


----------



## CoCoTrio

Is anyone adding Taurine to canned food?

I'm thinking of putting 150mg per day into the A Carny. The more I read about Taurine the less certain it seems that any commercial food has enough. 

Just wondered if anyone else was adding Taurine to canned wet, just to be on the safe side?


----------



## dakili

Hi all

Just wanted to say I have found a Korean supermarket near me, Putney, London, that stocks fresh chicken hearts.

I think they can be quite hard to find. I expected them to be really cheap but they are not really but still I think they are such a good source of taurine and easy to store in the freezer.


----------



## maunders

how much taurine powder to add to say 300g wet? thanks


----------



## CoCoTrio

I'm adding a tiny pinch each day to the wet food. I'm not measuring it as I haven't got a scale which will measure such a small amount.


----------



## moggiemum

very good information ,i 2 like to get what is required from a natural sourse and back up with pharmasuiticals only if really nescessary


----------



## outsider

_'If you choose raw diets or homemade diets, you must supplement these diets with taurnine.'_

Sorry to be bold enough to answer this but I use raw diet for years now and it works very well (no health issues).

Two things I'd like to share:

1. Raw meat have enough taurin if it is properly processed (I mean in nature when cats hunt there are no additional taurine to them). The trick: inside things have more taurine (like ox-heart) but as it is very sensitive stuff, even the size of the chops / bites are important as taurine oxidising quickly, so bigger parts of meat are better (for teeth too)
I must admit we never measure taurine so we are less scientific but try to copy the possible prey, like analyzing what is in a mouse, in a bird and try to copy their ingredients inc. inside things as much as possible. We also buy small birds to them like quail and let them struggle to eating in big parts.

2. It is from my vet: As taurine can be harmful if overdosed for kindeys (but cats like dry which have much taurine in them, like a kind of drog to them... - btw. it is one of the ingredients of energy-drinks) we have to be cautious how much can be given.

My own guessing: when you can see that your cats loves this dry or that dry (however you can see its ingredients and they are full with fillers like rice instead of meat) that they have plenty of taurine in them (but I never really checked this part). As far as I remember Orijen does not have additional taurine (this is the dry we use in the background, the main meals are always raw food). I do not wish to advertise Orijen here just mentioning as it has very good reviews certified by us., too - lot of owners mention it as a kind of food which helped to cure some illnesses - so I assume that it is about the high meat content of it, but I believe in raw.

Sorry, please correct me if I am wrong, during years I read so many infos and I maybe not remember very precisely for everything - nowadays I rather just 'copy nature'.


----------



## outsider

Morrisons keep ox-heart. Another good source and easier to find them. But thank you so much mentioning korean shop, I myself go to one from time to time to have ingredients to making korean food like kimchi, next time I shall check chicken-heart.

Is there any chance in this country that you can have this kind of inside things from local farms? Or it is not allowed? (I had some struggle to find raw milk source and hormon-antibiotic free eggs, I give both to my cats and we are happy now)


----------



## outsider

_'I do know you can't overdose taurine as they excrete it in urine if they have too much'_

Sorry my info is different (from my vet) can be overdose and ruin kidneys. My guess that maybe it is hard for kidneys to process it if it is too much.

I was researching a couple of days ago after something else when I read that nowadays most of the cats die because of kindey deseases (not really PKD the main reason), but food we give them and they say, overvaccination the other which cause autoimmun deseases or trigger them. There were a very deatiled article about it but written mostly on scientific / medical language and source in this case is Hungarian, so sorry I am not good enough to translate it properly but this was the point. And that in this cases the diet that vet usually advise (some protein free or low protein food) is not working, a false-way. The new research's result was that protein is necessary even for cats with kidney deseases but the given amount is important (must not be overdosed).


----------



## outsider

_'Also, years ago, there was no such thing as cat food or taurine additives etc etc. Cats where feed on home made food and/or raw because thats all there was (apart from the farm cats which caught their own food). Like a vet said the reason why they live longer today is due to advances in vet medicines, vaccinations, surgical procedures, treatments etc, etc.'_

I liked your comment very much it is just the quoted part I'd like to answer if I may.
I came from a diffenet environment (country) so I do not know my info how useful...
In old times where there were no designed food for cats, cats was a kind of.... looking for the good word... not just company but they had to 'work' in their own way just like dogs which watched herd or protected the houses / farms. It meant that they had just a part of the food from the kitchen table, they were kept to hunt , to prevent mince eat grain. So they had to hunt, they were kept on their natural diet. When they got food from the kitchen table it meant that woman produced chicken, fish etc for family and they give everything to the cat they do not wish to eat, like the head of the chicken and fish, most of the inside things, they catche insects, sometimes steal egg and was given some raw milk to them by woman. The cooked food - rest of the dinner (with carbonhydrates) was not for the cats, but the dogs and more often for the pigs. In our country with the exception of big cities, almost every house kept animals including pigs.

Yes, sometimes they died early. But reason was mostly accidents, a fight which caused infections, sometimes worms (treatment agains worms was not so known), birthgiving, cat-flu. But they did not meet with diabetes, leukemia, cat AIDS, constant kindey problems, overweight, a lot of autoimmun desease which are all very-very common nowadays. So I can't agree with this opinion of the vet. I myself things that some vital vaccination (as less as possible) can be important while others and forever-repetitions are dangerous and not even proofed to be protective.
And we all know about overadvertised dry which are full of rice and other junks.
Aslo in old time meat was good (no antibiotics, no hormons, animals around houses was kept on grain or the rest of the human food like pigs was rase on it or chicken eat corn and green stuffs and insects)


----------



## Deroli

Natures Menu - do frozen poultry hearts :smile5:


----------



## Pumlan

Hi, sorry to just jump in to this discussion; could I please ask a quick question: 

I've been looking at supplements for starting to feed my cats raw food - I'm currently looking for taurine but haven't been able to find an answer to my question - does anyone know if there is a difference in the taurine found in pet shops (e.g. Felini Taurin) and the taurine for humans found in health shops?

Thanks!


----------



## CoCoTrio

It's the same. If it's simply 100% taurine with nowt added then it's the same stuff, whether labelled for humans or cats or whatever.


----------



## Pumlan

Thank you CoCoTrio! That makes sense


----------



## dakili

Hi I read that it should be food grade. I got mine off a body building website of all places - you get loads more for your money!!


----------



## CoCoTrio

'Food grade' sounds important! I didn't know there was any other kind.


----------



## delilah90

As a fairly new cat owner, I've just read through most of this thread. I must confess I'm a bit confused! I knew taurine was important for cats. I've been feeding my Burmese Nature's Menu (pouches and frozen raw cubes), Applaws and Animonda, with some raw hearts, livers and wings several times a week. I've always added some dried a few times a week -I don't like the idea of it but I read that it often contains a better spread of the nutrients cats need, so thought better to be safe. At first I fed Royal Canin, then Applaws, once I realised that was better. I thought I was doing ok til I read this! So am I right in thinking there's no way a cat fed on either premium food or raw can get enough taurine and that basically we should all be supplementing? Is that the basic summary? I think it's what I've understood...Must admit I'm always a bit wary of supplements (in humans too!) unless directed, because I feel everything should be found in the diet and is better assimilated from food. I'm also concerned about giving my cat excess doses, considering he will be getting at least some from his diet already. Are we sure there's no problem with excess amounts - or is it just like us taking too much vitamin C - expensive pee, as they say?!! And any thoughts on how much a 10mo cat with a (I think) pretty good diet should have as a supplement?


----------



## CoCoTrio

Expensive pee is right, you can't OD. I just put a tiny pinch in some water and mix it in for each meal on the basis of better safe than sorry. I don't mind expensive pee.


----------



## wildaboutcats

delilah90 said:


> As a fairly new cat owner, I've just read through most of this thread. I must confess I'm a bit confused! I knew taurine was important for cats. I've been feeding my Burmese Nature's Menu (pouches and frozen raw cubes), Applaws and Animonda, with some raw hearts, livers and wings several times a week. I've always added some dried a few times a week -I don't like the idea of it but I read that it often contains a better spread of the nutrients cats need, so thought better to be safe. At first I fed Royal Canin, then Applaws, once I realised that was better. I thought I was doing ok til I read this! So am I right in thinking there's no way a cat fed on either premium food or raw can get enough taurine and that basically we should all be supplementing? Is that the basic summary? I think it's what I've understood...Must admit I'm always a bit wary of supplements (in humans too!) unless directed, because I feel everything should be found in the diet and is better assimilated from food. I'm also concerned about giving my cat excess doses, considering he will be getting at least some from his diet already. Are we sure there's no problem with excess amounts - or is it just like us taking too much vitamin C - expensive pee, as they say?!! And any thoughts on how much a 10mo cat with a (I think) pretty good diet should have as a supplement?


Hi there, i would just like to say that i feed both my cats raw meats of varrious kinds, i do not add any taurine, as it is not needed. They see vet reguarly and are nice and healthy & some vets actually do encourage meaty bones ect --- if you have one near you. I must say, that all this about taurine makes me laugh (a bit), as this did not exsist years ago. Also there is one lady i know who has always fed raw food for about 20 years, and never had a problem. All this about additives is just to make money. The ready prepared stuff (well, some of it) add taurine because it is cooked for so long! Also their teeth stay lovely and clean, as they do not eat any minced food or minced bones as not necessary. So they do not suffer with general anaesthetics & teeth cleaning procedures. There is no such thing as premium food", it is simple a made up term like "balanced". The best food is their natural diet --- this is the best, so i give them as natural as possible.
No fancy names, additives, weighing different quantities etc etc. Still, i expect people could go on discussing this untill the cows come home. 

Some supplements are not pure, so i think your right to be warry.


----------



## LMSharpmonkeys

Hi everyone, I work for Fish4Cats and wanted to let you all know that it offers a natural source of the essential amino acid Taurine, fish is a superb source of Omega 3, great for skin, coats and joints and soothing the odd, occasional cracked paw and fish is also high quality and easily digestible. We have a special offer on for cat forum users at the moment that may interest you. Just use the code forum10 at the checkout on the Fish4Cats website to save 10% off your order, for a single use. (fish4cats.info)


----------



## havoc

> I must say, that all this about taurine makes me laugh (a bit), as this did not exsist years ago


Not until a manufacturer produced a food without any - it existed well enough once cats were deprived of it and suffered for human ignorance.


----------



## Easycampers

are these chewable tablets OK please

Pet Naturals Daily Best for Cats (100 Beef Flavoured Chewable Tablets): Amazon.co.uk: Pet Supplies

any suggestions appreciated...


----------



## andrewjacson

Taurine is an essential amino acid that is critical for normal heart muscle function, vision, and reproduction in cats. Taurine is also needed to form the bile salts that aid in digestion.


----------



## Easycampers

and...where can I buy it?


----------



## Torin.

Easycampers said:


> and...where can I buy it?


Go for the powder aimed at bodybuilders, rather than pet intended forms. It's much cheaper and easier to dose this way, rather than solid/ 'chewable' things. Lots of options in terms of pack size on ebay and Amazon.


----------



## tt24

would you supplement cats with taurine if eating stuff from purr form:

Purrform - Natural frozen ground raw meat and bone cat food | Premium cat food | Raw food for pet | Frozen pet food | Frozen raw diet for pets | Raw minced meat | Pre-portioned frozen cat food


----------



## Gembobs

I'm interested in raw feeding but find all this a bit too much responsibility....giving that I'm not a scientist,,,,,,also a bit squeamish about offal being a 'recovering vegan'.

At the moment mine mainly eat Animonda Carny, Mac's and sometimes various other quality wet. I also give them a little snippet of raw chicken or fish if we're having some. I'd love to be able to feel confident in buying something from the butchers and throwing it down for them. (I like the idea of whole chicks....but I might cry when I see them  . But if it's a good thing to feed then I'm up for it.)

I'm concerned that although the foods I buy are quality, the whole Taurine debate runs me in circles. Can I just give them a few raw prawns a week to top them up....or a chunk of heart. (not sure if you have to build up to these meats and whether they would be too rich or too much heavy metal content) Or can I get wing tips from the butchers for them as a treat....is that dangerous?

Recently one of my cats has been a little unwell with a runny bum and I've been feeding her boiled chicken or white fish for a few days. She seems much better but I wondered if I can supplement her now with something else or whether that's not advised right now.

I had thought about Felini complete.....but if I can do it naturally then I'd rather.

 Thanks in advance everyone. You're all a wealth of cat love and knowledge.


----------



## andrewjacson

Taurine is one of these types of amino acid and has been found to play an essential role in the diet of cats*.* Lack of this amino acid results in severe health repercussions, such as blindness and tooth decay, amongst other things.


----------



## andrewjacson

Great thread. Thanks for sharing.Taurine in cats also plays several other very important roles in your pet starting with their vision.


----------



## Twozzle

hobbs2004 said:


> Ha, good point PG. According to FEDIAF and their nutritional guidelines for wet and dry cat food, 100g dry matter dry food should contain 0.10g, while 100g dry matter of wet food should contain 0.20g. For wet kitten food, it should be slightly higher with 0.25g/100g.
> 
> However, the suggested feeding rec of felini complete is per cat and they suggest feeding between 200mg and 500mg to top up the taurine content of the food.
> 
> Does that help?


It's been four years since anyone else posted on this thread, but it seems like the best place to ask the following, so here's hoping.


----------



## NovaLevent

I am currently using N&D pumpkin and Quail Netured, as it has a high taurine levels are high, I belive around 5000mg. Would I still need to give the little guy extra taurine in the form of a paste per say?


----------



## chillminx

NovaLevent said:


> I am currently using N&D pumpkin and Quail Netured, as it has a high taurine levels are high, I belive around 5000mg. Would I still need to give the little guy extra taurine in the form of a paste per say?


According to Farmina's website the N & D dry food Quail and Pumpkin Neutered recipe contains 4,000 mg of taurine per kg of food. This should be more than enough to meet the daily taurine needs of your cat.

Most commercial cat foods nowadays have sufficient taurine to prevent blindness and cardiomyopathy. But when only a single type of food is being fed all the time then a taurine supplement may be advisable. .

Taurine on its own has an unpleasantly strong smell, I doubt you would get your cat to eat it on its own. Instead giving your cat a more varied diet, would ensure he is getting a balanced diet that meets all his nutritional needs.

Red meat, particularly heart and liver, provide good levels of taurine for a cat. However, shellfish such as shrimps and prawns provide even more taurine than other animal proteins, making them excellent foods to feed your cat as a treat once or twice a week, say.


----------



## NovaLevent

chillminx said:


> According to Farmina's website the N & D dry food Quail and Pumpkin Neutered recipe contains 4,000 mg of taurine per kg of food. This should be more than enough to meet the daily taurine needs of your cat.
> 
> Most commercial cat foods nowadays have sufficient taurine to prevent blindness and cardiomyopathy. But when only a single type of food is being fed all the time then a taurine supplement may be advisable. .
> 
> Taurine on its own has an unpleasantly strong smell, I doubt you would get your cat to eat it on its own. Instead giving your cat a more varied diet, would ensure he is getting a balanced diet that meets all his nutritional needs.
> 
> Red meat, particularly heart and liver, provide good levels of taurine for a cat. However, shellfish such as shrimps and prawns provide even more taurine than other animal proteins, making them excellent foods to feed your cat as a treat once or twice a week, say.


Thank you for you kind reply and info. Just one question, lets say I were to give my little guy chicken heart ( uncooked I am presuming )as a treat what quatity would that be?


----------



## chillminx

NovaLevent said:


> Thank you for you kind reply and info. Just one question, lets say I were to give my little guy chicken heart ( uncooked I am presuming )as a treat what quatity would that be?


I braise chicken hearts for my cats in a covered casserole dish (with water) in the oven, cooked slowly for about an hour and a half. But if your cat will eat them chopped and raw fair enough. Is he used to eating raw food?

Lisa Pierson, the well known veterinary feline diet expert, says her recommendation is to limit chicken hearts to no more than two to three per day. This way, you can be confident that you are not providing your cat with too much of any one nutrient. But bear in mind she's referring to a cat who gets no other source of taurine in their diet. Your cat is getting plenty in his dry food. So to keep the diet balanced you would need to reduce the amount of dry food and feed a meal of raw red meat and offal or cooked red meat and offal, (e.g. cat food) to give variety to the diet.

However, excess taurine is excreted from the body through the kidneys, so it is won't harm the cat.

Bear in mind that heart can be relaxing to the bowel, and can cause loose stools. Two chicken hearts a day should be OK though,


----------



## NovaLevent

Thanks again for your help and info. Our little guy does not eat raw, Currently he is on the dry food and twice a week he will have wet food. For wet food I give him Schesir chicken 85gr. I will try your chicken heart recipe ☺. Thank you again.


----------



## StarWarsCats

Have read this thread and am now concerned that my girls aren’t getting enough taurine. They mostly eat complete tinned cat food from zooplus but do have some treats (chicken, fish, beef etc) and some complementary cat foods (applaws etc). I’ve ordered some taurine and can weigh it on a two decimal place balance- is 250mg/day/cat a reasonable amount to give? Dissolved in a bit of water? I’ve read several articles and it’s hard to find a number. Should I only add it to the non complete foods?

I should have some fresh lamb hearts at the weekend so was planning to give them some of that (only a small amount to see what they think but can freeze the the rest). Guessing I won’t need to add taurine to those- would a weekly portion of heart be a good way to supplement their taurine intake?


----------



## chillminx

Giving them heart to eat will certainly add to their taurine intake. Are you planning to cook it or feed it raw? (cooking will destroy a percentage of the taurine)

Bear in mind that taurine is not stored in the body and that any excess is excreted through the kidneys. So if you wanted the extra taurine to make a difference to them it would probably be better to give them a daily dietary source of it.

However I wouldn't give them heart every day as it can be loosening to the bowel.

These are other good taurine sources: 

Shellfish - high levels in clams, scallops, krill and shrimp.
Fish - cold water fish such as sardines or salmon 
Meat - all meat contains Taurine, dark poultry meat being one of the best sources.
Eggs.

(note: the shellfish and fish are best served cooked)


----------



## StarWarsCats

Was considering raw. If I give them a small amount raw and see how they respond, is that reasonable? Can casserole if they won’t touch it. Would small portions of defrosted heart every other day help the taurine intake in a more natural way than added taurine powder? Next time I’m near an Asian supermarket I’ll get some chicken hearts, sadly lacking organ options in my small rural market town!


----------



## chillminx

Yes, a small portion of heart every day might be a good way of giving extra taurine. I would only give them raw chicken heart that is frozen when you buy it then you defrost it in the fridge as you need it, to keep the bacteria levels down. If it does not look and smell OK when defrosted then I would cook it .

You can buy frozen chicken hearts at Kiezebrink. They are intended for raw feeding (though you can cook them if you want to )

https://www.kiezebrink.co.uk/product/123-chicken-hearts-1kg?search=hearts


----------



## StarWarsCats

Chopped, raw lamb heart went down exceedingly well with both of them, have kept some in the fridge for tomorrow and frozen the rest in portions. Have also weighed out the taurine powder into 250mg quantities so will see what they make of that added to complementary food.


----------



## lorilu

You can get freeze dried hearts too. They are made as pet treats. Make sure they are nothing but heart, no added ingredients.


----------



## SbanR

If SWC is in the UK and happy to order from ZP, fd hearts can be found in the dog section


----------



## StarWarsCats

SbanR said:


> If SWC is in the UK and happy to order from ZP, fd hearts can be found in the dog section


Thanks, I'll have a look. Colleague's husband is a butcher, will talk to him and see what he can get although I think they mostly do lamb.


----------



## TrevorH

Veganism has become super popular in many places in our world. Many Vegans are interested in their pets being on a Vegan diet, however, they are challenged with what to feed their cats when cats are obligate carnivores. Being true carnivores, cats need to eat meat. They are unable to synthesize the amino acid Taurine in their bodies like humans and dogs can. Cats get it from digesting meat. 

However, there is a market for Vegan cat food, and there are a few products available where the companies have formulated recipes without meat or animal ingredients that are considered balanced nutrition for cats. There is a lot of variance between the different products and it would be important to look carefully at the ingredients to see whether they will be helpful or harmful towards cats. 

Check the levels and balances of nutrients, especially with protein and supplementation of amino acids (like Taurine), vitamins and minerals.


----------



## Dave platts

I feed my cats a well balanced mixture of chicken thighs, bone, some skin, chicken hearts, chicken liver along with water and some egg yolks along with a small addition of vitamin B. I also sometimes add some chicken gizzard from my local butchers to mix it up a bit. That's one recipe I do I do change the meat occasionally I have my recipe written down for exact measurements if anyone wants this jus PM me, it's a bit more complex but it works for me. I save pounds doing this compared to buying it online. Hope this helps someone.


----------

