# What can stop handing Gibraltar back to Spain?



## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Gibraltar looks like the first victim of Brexit.
We will be handed back to Spain.
They have huge celebrations in media and at the frontier.
















Talks will not include our Government.

So much for human rights like self- determination?

We are the sacrifice, easy to make if does not directly affect you and yours.


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## MollySmith (May 7, 2012)

I am so sorry @cheekyscrip you said this from the start. Please be assured that we didn't all want to jump of cliffs into the unknown, the smaller but still significant % of us were listening to you and our friends. The implications were always huge and frankly if anyone thought that it would be so simple that Britain was so important (with apologies to Scotland for dragging them into this) we could just turn up and say we wanted, they are stupid.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

I can see why you worry @cheekyscrip but remember this is the very early stages of negotiations. We don't know the uks response yet.

Hopefully with the combined help of the local Gibraltar government and national governments you can get the deal you want out of all this.

Don't lose hope yet! Still very very early days!


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Just spotted this thread & although I've posted something on the EU thread I couldn't pass this one by without posting. I am so sorry for you, for your family, for all the citizens of the rock & for the apes & the wildlife. I have heard that brexit can be revoked & people are fighting tooth & nail to stop this train wreck. I hope hard liners will wake up to the disaster brexit now quite clearly is & the nightmare you're living in will be over. Huge hugs from me & mine xx


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> Just spotted this thread & although I've posted something on the EU thread I couldn't pass this one by without posting. * I am so sorry for* you, for your family, for all the citizens of the rock & for* the apes* & the wildlife. I have heard that brexit can be revoked & people are fighting tooth & nail to stop this train wreck. I hope hard liners will wake up to the disaster brexit now quite clearly is & the nightmare you're living in will be over. Huge hugs from me & mine xx


The apes Noush'?

It was the bleedin' apes that cause all this mess!:Wacky


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Zaros said:


> The apes Noush'?
> 
> It was the bleedin' apes that cause all this mess!:Wacky


That is so true.

Apes like that lying, bleeding lard arse on the left!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

noushka05 said:


> That is so true.
> 
> Apes like that lying, bleeding *lard arse on the left!*
> 
> View attachment 305018


Lard arse...:Hilarious

That's his one and only 'Morrell'

Morrell' That's a play on words Noush' :Smuggrin


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

noushka05 said:


> That is so true.
> 
> Apes like that lying, bleeding lard arse on the left!
> 
> View attachment 305018


That's hardly fair on the Apes.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Funny side in a way...Garfield was to get his new, fantastic cat tree tomorrow, but we will not dare to cross...
On our GBZ number plates. Must go big , big shopping to store up some cans etc...supplies will be disrupted for sure.


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny side in a way...Garfield was to get his new, fantastic cat tree tomorrow, but we will not dare to cross...
> On our GBZ number plates. Must go big , big shopping to store up some cans etc...supplies will be disrupted for sure.


Can you explain what happens to you if you have GBZ number plates, scrippy? Most people will have no idea what you go through on a regular basis


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Jesthar said:


> Can you explain what happens to you if you have GBZ number plates, scrippy? Most people will have no idea what you go through on a regular basis


Cars get keyed, sprayed, tyres slashed, even pushed off the road or burned.
As OH commented " We should have not got the new car".

Truly. New car is a magnet for fascist minded vandals.

I remember the case of a mum I know, she was taking her special needs child to school. Spanish men saw she was in a car alone and pushed into her car with a rusty van. She had to stop. Too shaken to continue.

My old car was scratched when left at the parking. Possibly keyed. We also had wheels's screws taken off and wheel fell off while OH was driving. Nearly crashing into another, Spanish car.

My brother-in-law had his car sprayed in red and yellow on paid parking. Security and Guardia Civiles were laughing.
Cars are sometimes stopped and fined for no reason or driving license not " recognised" and car towed away.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> Cars get keyed, sprayed, tyres slashed, even pushed off the road or burned.
> As OH commented " We should have not got the new car".
> 
> Truly. New car is a magnet for fascist minded vandals.
> ...


So I guess a dash cam is out of the question Scrippy.

I do and can sympathise with you entirely. You should have seen what similar like minded retards did to MrsZee's brand new car two weeks after it was driven out of the showroom.

Deluxe White Pearl with blue varnish thrown across the rear passenger door, quarter panel and tailgate.

Luckily it was a chilly night when the attackers struck and so the varnish hadn't quite set. A couple of hours of loving care and attention, soon restored the paintwork back to its former glory.

And now the 845t4rds know I take the law inrto my own hands, they think twice about their nocturnal habits and mischief. :Smuggrin


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

This dreadful situation dismissed by many as, "Scaremongering" could have been prevented which makes it all the worse.

They can't honestly believe the EU will be on the side of the UK, or UK matters.

They left !

The EU must put the interests of its own members first. When the UK was a member the situation was ideal, like NI and the ROI.

All separate identities under the umbrella of one, the EU.

Put it another way, if you left the AA, RAC or other car breakdown service would you still expect them to come out and fix your car if it broke down?


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> This dreadful situation dismissed by many as, "Scaremongering" could have been prevented which makes it all the worse.
> 
> They can't honestly believe the EU will be on the side of the UK, or UK matters.
> 
> ...


I've just heard on the radio that BJ is going to stand Gibraltar's corner? 

Fight the good fight and all that.....unch

I think I'd be a bit wary if I was Gibraltar, I don't think BJ looks fit enough to be standing for himself let alone anyone else.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Zaros said:


> I've just heard on the radio that BJ is going to stand Gibraltar's corner?
> 
> Fight the good fight and all that.....unch
> 
> I think I'd be a bit wary if I was Gibraltar, I don't think BJ looks fit enough to be standing for himself let alone anyone else.


Rather a shame Micheal Gove isn't still around for him and BJ to continue their Laurel and Hardy double act.

It's no longer funny though.....


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

The dreadful situation is that we all our guilt is that in 1713 in Utrecht Spain and others swapped colonies and Gibraltar was given to Britain in perpetuity.

So where is the claim?

But will British actually stand for the Rock and hurt Spain back?
By foregoing holidays there or buying Spanish products?


We do not need BJ or clumsyTM , but ordinary folk to support us.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

cheekyscrip said:


> The dreadful situation is that we all our guilt is that in 1713 in Utrecht Spain and others swapped colonies and Gibraltar was given to Britain in perpetuity.
> 
> So where is the claim?
> 
> ...


Spain already has 40% unemployment and if Brit tourists boycott Spain as a holiday destination that figure will no doubt rise quite dramatically. Would Brits dare? Would Spain dare to gamble?

80l0X to Benidorm!


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

KittenKong said:


> Rather a shame Micheal Gove isn't still around for him and BJ to continue their Laurel and Hardy double act.
> 
> It's no longer funny though.....


:Sorry


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Zaros said:


> Spain already has 40% unemployment and if Brit tourists boycott Spain as a holiday destination that figure will no doubt rise quite dramatically. Would Brits dare? Would Spain dare to gamble?
> 
> 80l0X to Benidorm!


Well, that would be good for the Spanish Nationalists who believe the Brits have taken over Benidorm and have taken their jobs.

Sound familiar to anyone?

Of course if the UK becomes excluded from the common flight area holidays to places like Spain could be prohibitively expensive to all but the very rich anyway. That's without the complications of visas being required and longer waits at airports.....

Naturally the UK papers will lead an anti Spanish campaign their readers will follow like sheep as per usual.

Was voting leave really worth all this?


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## Odin_cat (Mar 14, 2017)

Zaros said:


> Spain already has 40% unemployment and if Brit tourists boycott Spain as a holiday destination that figure will no doubt rise quite dramatically. Would Brits dare? Would Spain dare to gamble?
> 
> 80l0X to Benidorm!


I don't think the UK would be well served by making threats. The unemployment rate in Spain is actually now under 20% and that doesn't include all the people who work cash in hand.

As KittyKong says, many would be glad if British tourists stopped coming- they would save on policing costs!

From what I've gathered, normal Spanish people think that colonies have no place in the modern world and they do see Gibraltar as a colony. But they don't really care if Spain takes it back, they are more interested in the fate of their friends who are in the UK.


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## Zaros (Nov 24, 2009)

Odin_cat said:


> I don't think the UK would be well served by making threats. The unemployment rate in Spain is actually now under 20% .


Here's the 'apparent' overall picture which differs somewhat to the one in the paper.

http://countryeconomy.com/unemployment/spain


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## Satori (Apr 7, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> Naturally the UK papers will lead an anti Spanish campaign.


I hope so.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Gib voted 99% to stay in the EU... traitors!


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Odin_cat said:


> I don't think the UK would be well served by making threats. The unemployment rate in Spain is actually now under 20% and that doesn't include all the people who work cash in hand.
> 
> As KittyKong says, many would be glad if British tourists stopped coming- they would save on policing costs!


And lose billions in tourist spending


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## Calvine (Aug 20, 2012)

Zaros said:


> Would Brits dare?


My guess is that many/most will head off where it's still cheap, and if that's Spain, that's where they'll go.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Sorry to hear this @cheekyscrip Unfortunately it wasn't unexpected. Apparantly it was dismissed as all simply part of project fear. One of the ways I can see the ordinary person helping is to actually show solidarity with Gibraltar. Marches for instance would show the ordinary UK citizen supports them, not simply have politicians say things. Not sure if anything material is needed in Gibraltar at the moment but physical items being brought and delivered to Gibraltar would also show hard support and demonstrate the UK is prepared to do more than simply say things. That is what is needed, not simply more words.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Odin_cat said:


> I don't think the UK would be well served by making threats. The unemployment rate in Spain is actually now under 20% and that doesn't include all the people who work cash in hand.
> 
> As KittyKong says, many would be glad if British tourists stopped coming- they would save on policing costs!
> 
> From what I've gathered, normal Spanish people think that colonies have no place in the modern world and they do see Gibraltar as a colony. But they don't really care if Spain takes it back, they are more interested in the fate of their friends who are in the UK.


Oh, really?

When are Spanish to hand back Ceuta and Mellila plus twelve other Gibraltars they have in Africa?

Treaty of Utrecht was a big land swap, Cuba for Florida, etc...
Does Spain claim Florida back?

The important part about Gibraltar, or even Ceuta for that matter, is what people who live there want.

Gibraltar voted 99% to stay British.I believe people in Ceuta, though in Africa, are happy to be Spanish, not Moroccan.

The basic human right , which now Spain and EU are violating is the right to self-determination.

Gibraltar should not be punished for self-determination.

If Spain does not like clines can get rid of their own.

They had Gibraltar for 250 years only.
Moors built the town and owned and named Gibraltar. Had it for 700 years.
Neanderthals were the first and lived there for many thousand years

We have rights to decide about our own land, not our neighbours.

Spanish generally have no problem with that and frontier zone benefits from mutual trade and tourism.

Today around frontier very quiet, sombre mood on both sides.

Ordinary people just want to carry on. 
Spain can destroy our economy for political gain.
Destroying their own border town.
Madrid does not care .

Hypocrites

When Ceuta and Mellila are going back to Morocco?.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Odin_cat said:


> I don't think the UK would be well served by making threats. The unemployment rate in Spain is actually now under 20% and that doesn't include all the people who work cash in hand.
> 
> As KittyKong says, many would be glad if British tourists stopped coming- they would save on policing costs!
> 
> From what I've gathered, normal Spanish people think that colonies have no place in the modern world and they do see Gibraltar as a colony. But they don't really care if Spain takes it back, they are more interested in the fate of their friends who are in the UK.


Spanish colonies in Africa. Spain can give them back if wishes so.

Do if they do nit like colonies why trying to grab our Rock? 
Which provides 12 k jobs for Spanish residents and nationals?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Spain has got a claim on GIB, after all China got Hong Kong back...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Sorry to hear this @cheekyscrip Unfortunately it wasn't unexpected. Apparantly it was dismissed as all simply part of project fear. One of the ways I can see the ordinary person helping is to actually show solidarity with Gibraltar. Marches for instance would show the ordinary UK citizen supports them, not simply have politicians say things. Not sure if anything material is needed in Gibraltar at the moment but physical items being brought and delivered to Gibraltar would also show hard support and demonstrate the UK is prepared to do more than simply say things. That is what is needed, not simply more words.


It is very sad indeed, because as you well know Gibraltar wanted to stay in EU and got singled out for punishment by the very EU. 
So much for human rights protection.

To self-determination.

If any Spaniards ever say anything to me about decolonization ( by handing it to Spain, obviously)...I say: Ceuta, Mellila.

We really need joined protests with our neighbours.

United across the frontier.
We should decide not Madrid, EU or else.
Our livehoods at stake. Both sides.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Colliebarmy said:


> Spain has got a claim on GIB, after all China got Hong Kong back...


Hong Kong was only leased to the UK (99 years) and was handed back only after the lease ran out.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> It is very sad indeed, because as you well know Gibraltar wanted to stay in EU and got singled out for punishment by the very EU.
> So much for human rights protection.


Who does the EU serve? It serves their continuing members. The UK has decided to leave. The democratic process has been respected by the EU including the right to self-determination. How long have we known that the EU countries would each have a veto on any trade deal? How long have we known that Spain would likely use it to push for Gibraltar. How long have Gibraltans been ignored when it comes to Brexit? Unless Spain does something illegal under EU regulations what is the EU supposed to do? Break their own regulations for a non-member state? What is surprising is that Gibraltar was singled out this early but at least now it is out in the open at the beginning of the negotiations rather than Spain pushing the issue later when they would potentially have more impact and therefore "power".


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## Odin_cat (Mar 14, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> Oh, really?
> 
> When are Spanish to hand back Ceuta and Mellila plus twelve other Gibraltars they have in Africa?
> 
> ...


Most of the people I know think they should be given back to Morocco.

My post seems to have angered you and I apologise for that. My main point was that normal Spanish people don't care that much about Gibraltar, and that the political class don't really represent the people. So I think we actually agree.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2017)

Spanish politicians care about Gibraltar and ordinary people as much the British politicians care about them. Nada. I really hope you stay British. Spain has so many "colonies" itself that it might want to leave Gibraltar alone not let Morocco have reasons to start claiming them back, Cheeky´s map was quite telling so hopefully that will speak for itself. 

Even if Gibraltar will remain British, the fact that you have to worry about it and the Brexit- politicians didn´t bother to consider what are the real consequences after Brexit, is unforgivable. How can they gamble with anything that important? The comments no one knows, lets wait and see are truly sad, as that shows how utterly empty the "promises" given were. I´d be furious at the sheer incompetence of a country's so called leaders to create a situation like this. Fair enough had there been facts, understanding of the consequences and a plan to create a better system, but so far there has been absolutely nothing. Only divided nation, worry, insecurity and rise in racists attacks. "Best allies" being Trump, KKK- klan and Putin. Brexiteers telling people they should be positive, as it is not nice to be angry. is not really good enough for British. Don´t they deserve better that this?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Have you seen this strongly worded letter by Lord Boswell, Cheeky? He's the chairman of the House of Lords EU committee.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Odin_cat said:


> Most of the people I know think they should be given back to Morocco.
> 
> My post seems to have angered you and I apologise for that. My main point was that normal Spanish people don't care that much about Gibraltar, and that the political class don't really represent the people. So I think we actually agree.


I actually think that if inhabitants of Ceuta want to be Spanish then they right to be as they are.
People are not cattle to be shunned back and forth for any historical reasons or political gains.

People have rights to self- determination. Anywhere.

In EU. In UK. In Africa.
You cannot " hand over people" as if trading goods.
Ceuta happy as they are. Gibraltar as we are.

Communities on both sides get along all right if just let be.

As you say and it is true for most Spanish people neither Ceuta nor Gibraltar are priorities.
It only matters for those who live there and whose jobs are threatened.

@noushka05 our main problem is not so much the physical aggression as the economy, which will be destroyed if Spain blocks the frontier.
Destroyed on both sides, but maybe EU would support the unemployed Spanish residents?
Who would finance the Rock if no more EU funding , no more supplies, no more workforce, trade or tourism?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

The UK shouldn't be leaving the EU.

Simples........


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 305091
> 
> 
> The UK shouldn't be leaving the EU.
> ...


But it is.

Simples. TM did not mention Gibraltar in her divorce papers. Though NI was there.

She visited Spain not long ago. Saying " Spain will be no problem"

No. They have no claim as they traded Gibraltar to Britain in perpetuity in 1713 ( Treaty of Utrecht).
But TM never gave any guarantees to our government so no surprise here.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

I reckon some people need to take a "chill pill"...
Nobody knew what a brexit vote meant at the time &, as it's never happened before, nobody knows what will be the end result in 2 years time!

Negotiations are always the same, lots of posturing, with demands "set in stone" which always change....


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2017)

BlackadderUK said:


> Negotiations are always the same, lots of posturing, with demands "set in stone" which always change....


When you negotiate, you know what you want, what are your targets, what can you use for bargaining, what not, you have a strategy and tactics. You also know what the opponents want and what they will use for their tactics. And, above all, you have a plan what to do of you win or lose. And this is just for making simple business deals. Simply: You bl**dy well are prepared and you do your homework beforehand.

For Brexit the main "culprits" left, as their plans were no plans. That should be a good warning sign on its own. Now, the real question is who will benefit in a situation like this? Who uses chaos, fast deals and diverse tactics for their benefit? Is it a) "ordinary people" b) or a few companies and individuals, who are used to shady deals. c) shady politicians?

The answer is not "stop being negative and just keep fingers crossed", as that is just naive. Wishful thinking is something you cannot afford at the moment, as the dice is cast and you have to live with that. Wake up!

I ask myself why I bother to try to help you, as I live in an EU-country, and I should not care at all about what happens to British people. But I do, as I used to think Britain was great, so tolerant, international and cool. Also I hate bullies in all forms and disguises and people being lied to, that is just not right.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

BlackadderUK said:


> I reckon some people need to take a "chill pill"...
> Nobody knew what a brexit vote meant


Yet May has decided to run with a minute majority of voters during a non-binding referendum with a decision which cannot be reversed. At the same time May is saying scotland can not have a referendum as the full impact is not set and it would be "unfair" to ask people to make decisions without knowing the result.

Of course we have those who voted leave changing what they expected (which obviously is what everyone knew at the time of the referendum) according to which way the politicians are heading on a particular day.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Surely though the EU, of which some hold in the most highest regard as a pinicacle of democracy and peace in mainland Europe, would not allow Spain to punish the residents of Gibraltar, a territory which it's own residents democratically wants to stay part of the UK.

Surely this should happen regards of the UKs membership?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Surely though the EU, of which some hold in the most highest regard as a pinicacle of democracy and peace in mainland Europe, would not allow Spain to punish the residents of Gibraltar, a territory which it's own residents democratically wants to stay part of the UK.


Remember the UK is abandoning the rules between member states. Should the EU stomp on Spain's sovereignty? Yes they can apply diplomatic pressure but they cannot dictate to spain what it can and cannot do.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Remember the UK is abandoning the rules between member states. Should the EU stomp on Spain's sovereignty? Yes they can apply diplomatic pressure but they cannot dictate to spain what it can and cannot do.


Yes the UK is leaving the EU but that is a mute point here, but surely the EU recognises Gibraltars rights regardless of its membership? It doesn't look great for the EU as a whole for one of its members to ignore the rights of the population living there?

Surely its not a case of "well your not in 'our club' so lets just screw you over by ignoring international law". I would like to think that the EU will apply immense pressure on Spain to act in a way that is in accordance of international law. That I think is the very least we can ask for from a "modern, democratic" EU.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Surely its not a case of "well your not in 'our club' so lets just screw you over by ignoring international law". I would like to think that the EU will apply immense pressure on Spain to act in a way that is in accordance of international law. That I think is the very least we can ask for from a "modern, democratic" EU.


Well they are doing it all over Africa etc, Why not to us now we aren't towing the line


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> Yes the UK is leaving the EU but that is a mute point here, but surely the EU recognises Gibraltars rights regardless of its membership? It doesn't look great for the EU as a whole for one of its members to ignore the rights of the population living there?
> 
> Surely its not a case of "well your not in 'our club' so lets just screw you over by ignoring international law". I would like to think that the EU will apply immense pressure on Spain to act in a way that is in accordance of international law. That I think is the very least we can ask for from a "modern, democratic" EU.


Doubt it. Spain has given Gibraltar to Britain in 1713 in Treaty of Utrecht. Also swapped other lands. Would they claim Florida???

They have no other claim than " national pride".

They were always told to " shut up" by EU. Even directly. 
It does nothing for real problems Spain has. 
Most ordinary Spanish folk do not give a damn.

Why would Tusk now allow fate of Gibraltar be decided in any talks not including our Gov?

We already have Cordoba agreement ?
Future of Gibraltar should not be decided without us

Very sad EU think we have no human rights any more.
Right to self-determination is a basic human right.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Yes the UK is leaving the EU but that is a mute point here, but surely the EU recognises Gibraltars rights regardless of its membership? It doesn't look great for the EU as a whole for one of its members to ignore the rights of the population living there?


You fail to answer the question. Does the EU have the right to override Spain's sovereignty? Isn't that what the Brexit campaigners were falsely complaining about and one of the reasons to leave the EU?



> Surely its not a case of "well your not in 'our club' so lets just screw you over by ignoring international law".


So tell me, what international law are you talking about?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> You fail to answer the question. Does the EU have the right to override Spain's sovereignty? Isn't that what the Brexit campaigners were falsely complaining about and one of the reasons to leave the EU?
> 
> So tell me, what international law are you talking about?


Is Spain under any threat?

What if they claimed Portugal? 
Gibraltar is a separate jurisdiction. With own government and law.
We can represent ourselves.

This is what we want. Our voice to be heard.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Very sad EU think we have no human rights any more.
> Right to self-determination is a basic human right.


So is Spain going to invade? Leaving the EU means things like the freedom of movement, trade benefits etc are lost. My understanding is that that is the problem. Simple question can Gibralter cope with the UK implementing hard brexit and the WTO option which they are likely to do? Who is inflicting this on Gibraltar as last I heard that is the UK government not the EU.


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Charter of the United Nations, Article (1)


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> So is Spain going to invade? Leaving the EU means things like the freedom of movement, trade benefits etc are lost. My understanding is that that is the problem. Simple question can Gibralter cope with the UK implementing hard brexit and the WTO option which they are likely to do? Who is inflicting this on Gibraltar as last I heard that is the UK government not the EU.


True. This is why we want to be seen as separate issue. Like NI / ROI for example.

We want to be part of discussions.

We should not be punished for Brexit.
Why is that fair?

As to.invading our waters that is daily occurrence. Also intrusion into air space.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> True. This is why we want to be seen as separate issue. Like NI / ROI for example.
> 
> We want to be part of discussions.
> 
> ...


You shouldn't be but that isn't the responsibility of the EU. It is the responsibility of the UK government.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> You fail to answer the question. Does the EU have the right to override Spain's sovereignty? Isn't that what the Brexit campaigners were falsely complaining about and one of the reasons to leave the EU?
> 
> So tell me, what international law are you talking about?


Not asking the EU to override Spain sovereignty here, just stating what it should expect of its members. If the EU is silent on the matter, then in my opinion they are also at the same time accepting what is being done.

What international law? United Nations Article 1. The right to self determination. So you know, nothing important...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Just why pick on small community of 30k who can happily arrange things with the community on the other side to mutual satisfaction.
















@Goblin do you agree we should have not be used as pawns in this game?

Why EU allowed Spain to run with it without any claim?
We did not want to leave EU either!!!
So why punish us?

Tiny nation.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> *
> Very sad EU think we have no human rights any more.
> Right to self-determination is a basic human righ*t.


That's the really important thing here @cheekyscrip. In my opinion, if the EU allows Spain to use you guys as a 'pawn' in negotiations, then they are downright disgraceful and I think goes against everything that they say the EU stands for (democracy, human rights, peace, etc). Just because the UK is not in the EU, does not mean they should forget the basic principles in which they were founded on.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> What international law? United Nations Article 1. The right to self determination. So you know, nothing important...


How are they breaking it? If they are then the UK government would be able to take them to the International Court of Justice. However with what? Spain setting border controls as allowed perhaps. You've already said the EU should not be expected to ignore spain's sovereignty which is what would be needed. We already knew each of the 27 nations of the EU would have a veto over any trade negotiations, a fact which leavers point out as a reason to leave and why we should make our own trade deals.

Great one to talk about democracy when the UK ignores it in Scotland and Gibraltar.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> How are they breaking it? If they are then the UK government would be able to take them to the International Court of Justice. However with what? Spain setting border controls as allowed perhaps.


By forcing unessary border checks, by closing the border unnecessarily, by ecroaching on the territorial waters. I am sure @cheekyscrip will know more than me on the subject. And that doesn't even include trying to use them as a bargaining chip in any talks between the EU and UK. There is no bargain to have. Gibraltar is not theres to have.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> That's the really important thing here @cheekyscrip. In my opinion, if the EU allows Spain to use you guys as a 'pawn' in negotiations, then they are downright disgraceful and I think goes against everything that they say the EU stands for (democracy, human rights, peace, etc). Just because the UK is not in the EU, does not mean they should forget the basic principles in which they were founded on.


Exactly. All we want is to be left in peace.

Why decision of EU in retaliation to decision of UK should have right to destroy our livehoods and those on other side of the border, because Rajoy wants it?

It should be about protection for the ordinary, hard working people on both sides who would suffer the most, not TM or Tusk or Rajoy.
Can EU see that?

I am Polish, OH has family on both sides, we lived on both sides of the frontier and I wish to speak for all affected, whether UK or EU.

Shame that Spain is happy to sacrifice their own for ego boost.
And EU seconds that.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> By forcing unessary border checks, by closing the border unnecessarily, by ecroaching on the territorial waters.


Unnecessary border checks.. like stopping freedom of movement, a requirement and the primary drive of the UK's brexit negotiations? As for encroaching territorial water shouldn't that be finally settled by international courts as at the moment it is "contested" although even the spanish admit in private that they have little or no claim. Again, something the government should sort out as soon as possible, in fact it should have been sorted out years ago.


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## Odin_cat (Mar 14, 2017)

Sorry if I'm being dim, but wouldn't border checks be introduced anyway unless a deal was struck?

I also don't feel that the right to self-determination could be applied here; Spain is divided into autonomous regions which have a pretty large amount of freedom, Gibraltar would be no different.

If TM guaranteed the rights of the Spanish workers in the UK I think things would become less hostile.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Unnecessary border checks.. like stopping freedom of movement, a requirement and the primary drive of the UK's brexit negotiations? As for encroaching territorial water shouldn't that be finally settled by international courts as at the moment it is "contested" although even the spanish admit in private that they have little or no claim. Again, something the government should sort out as soon as possible, in fact it should have been sorted out years ago.


Spain has imposed unnesscary border checks on the residents of Gibraltar, while the UK has remained in the EU.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Unnecessary border checks.. like stopping freedom of movement, a requirement and the primary drive of the UK's brexit negotiations? As for encroaching territorial water shouldn't that be finally settled by international courts as at the moment it is "contested" although even the spanish admit in private that they have little or no claim. Again, something the government should sort out as soon as possible, in fact it should have been sorted out years ago.


They say we have no territorial waters or air space!!!
As you know international law thinks different on both.

Spain has no claim on Gibraltar since 1713.
People of Gibraltar have rights to passable frontier. It is not Schengen anyhow, so why block it now?

Workers can cross without London or Madrid involved.
Queues were always ordered from Madrid not ever local councils.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Exactly. All we want is to be left in peace.
> 
> Why decision of EU in retaliation to decision of UK should have right to destroy our livehoods and those on other side of the border, because Rajoy wants it?
> 
> ...


What's the political climate like in Spain at the moment, there economy, etc? Typically countries often will divert to things like territory grabs to divert from the important issues at home (aka Argentina).


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Odin_cat said:


> Sorry if I'm being dim, but wouldn't border checks be introduced anyway unless a deal was struck?
> 
> I also don't feel that the right to self-determination could be applied here; Spain is divided into autonomous regions which have a pretty large amount of freedom, Gibraltar would be no different.
> 
> If TM guaranteed the rights of the Spanish workers in the UK I think things would become less hostile.


We not in Schengen anyhow.
May should have started negotiations with guaranteed protection of EU nationals already in UK.
Absolute shame not to.
Ordinary people worried sick, who worked hard and did nothing to deserve that.
Same as us. Used as pawns.
Disgrace.


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## Odin_cat (Mar 14, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> We not in Schengen anyhow.
> May should have started negotiations with guaranteed protection of EU nationals already in UK.
> Absolute shame not to.
> Ordinary people worried sick, who worked hard and did nothing to deserve that.
> ...


Absolutely, I don't trust either TM or Rajoy as far as I can spit... At least most Spanish people realise their government is untrustworthy.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> What's the political climate like in Spain at the moment, there economy, etc? Typically countries often will divert to things like territory grabs to divert from the important issues at home (aka Argentina).


Situation in Spain not much different than in Italy.
The usual combination of political mess, corruption, unemployment, debts, Catalonia making stand for independence, Basks too...
Yep. Gibraltar was always the topic when any corruption scandal came up...The Royal son- in- law or Chancellor robbing the kitty.

This is also split country with spirit of Franco very much present in ruling PP right wing.

Socialists are much.more progressive, but it was actually Blair who wanted to give Gibraltar to Zapatero.Hence we had referendum in 2002 to prevent that.

Actually LibDem and even Tories treated Gibraltar better than Labour did.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> They say we have no territorial waters or air space!!!
> As you know international law thinks different on both.


I know which is why it needs an international court ruling to put it to bed once and for all.



> People of Gibraltar have rights to passable frontier. It is not Schengen anyhow, so why block it now?


Under EU law, on entry third-country nationals must be subject to thorough checks, as described in the Schengen Borders Code. Nationals of the EU, the EEA and Swiss citizens usually undergo only a minimal check. The same applies to their family members, whatever their nationality. As a member of the EU but not of Schengen, the UK had a special arrangement, one of many exceptions to normal EU policy. UK is leaving that behind for the ability to fully control it's own borders... That goes both ways, not just for people but for goods as well.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> I know which is why it needs an international court ruling to put it to bed once and for all.
> 
> Under EU law, on entry third-country nationals must be subject to thorough checks, as described in the Schengen Borders Code. Nationals of the EU, the EEA and Swiss citizens usually undergo only a minimal check. The same applies to their family members, whatever their nationality. As a member of the EU but not of Schengen, the UK had a special arrangement, one of many exceptions to normal EU policy. UK is leaving that behind for the ability to fully control it's own borders... That goes both ways, not just for people but for goods as well.


This why Gibraltar should be talking not just UK. It is our frontier and we talk locals coming and going, local trade. We must be included.
We not a threat to Spanish sovereignty or economy. Otherwise yes, Spain is a threat to both.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> This why Gibraltar should be talking not just UK. It is our frontier and we talk locals coming and going, local trade. We must be included.


As should Scotland, Wales, NI even the falklands thinking about it. Trouble is May knows best apparantly and will not allow anything to threaten her position.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

This is what our Chief Minister had to say, so take it as our voice:


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 305091
> 
> 
> The UK shouldn't be leaving the EU.
> ...


Slowly she awoke from her deep sleep


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

You cant have it all ways..

Didnt the 99% who voted to remain as European not think that would look (to Spain) like a vote to become Spanish?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> You cant have it all ways..
> 
> Didnt the 99% who voted to remain as European not think that would look (to Spain) like a vote to become Spanish?


No. We had referendum in 2002 and this is when we voted 99% to stay British.

EU referendum had 96%. Nearly half of UK voted to Remain. Do you assume they voted to be Spanish?

Do you think Heseltine is about to apply for Spanish passport?


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## DogLover1981 (Mar 28, 2009)

Give Gibraltar to Spain and just leave all the people in Gibraltar out to sea.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

DogLover1981 said:


> Give Gibraltar to Spain and just leave all the people in Gibraltar out to sea.


Give Texas to Mexico and Florida to Cuba...
Lets tequila and some rum.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

MrsZee said:


> When you negotiate, you know what you want, what are your targets, what can you use for bargaining, what not, you have a strategy and tactics. You also know what the opponents want and what they will use for their tactics. And, above all, you have a plan what to do of you win or lose. And this is just for making simple business deals. Simply: You bl**dy well are prepared and you do your homework beforehand.
> 
> For Brexit the main "culprits" left, as their plans were no plans. That should be a good warning sign on its own. Now, the real question is who will benefit in a situation like this? Who uses chaos, fast deals and diverse tactics for their benefit? Is it a) "ordinary people" b) or a few companies and individuals, who are used to shady deals. c) shady politicians?
> 
> ...


This is one of the best posts I've read on this brexit debacle. Thank you Mrs Zee x


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

rona said:


> Well they are doing it all over Africa etc, Why not to us now we aren't towing the line


What do you mean 'now we aren't towing the line'? We had one of the biggest voices in the EU.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Spain got veto on Gibraltar. Now it takes back the threat to block Scotland.
Fairly clear now why EU gave them that power.
As TM did not mention Gibraltar in divorce papers, it was easy victory in diplomatic game.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Deleted - posted in the wrong thread.


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## Blackadder (Aug 25, 2014)

MrsZee said:


> When you negotiate, you know what you want, what are your targets, what can you use for bargaining, what not, you have a strategy and tactics. You also know what the opponents want and what they will use for their tactics. And, above all, you have a plan what to do of you win or lose. And this is just for making simple business deals. Simply: You bl**dy well are prepared and you do your homework beforehand.


You might know what you want but it's rarely what you get, more it's knowing what you will settle for & what you will settle for is never your starting point in any negotiation.
The result is always a compromise.



MrsZee said:


> For Brexit the main "culprits" left, as their plans were no plans. That should be a good warning sign on its own. Now, the real question is who will benefit in a situation like this? Who uses chaos, fast deals and diverse tactics for their benefit? Is it a) "ordinary people" b) or a few companies and individuals, who are used to shady deals. c) shady politicians?


When have "ordinary people" ever benefited when big business & politics are involved?



MrsZee said:


> The answer is not "stop being negative and just keep fingers crossed", as that is just naive. Wishful thinking is something you cannot afford at the moment, as the dice is cast and you have to live with that. Wake up!
> 
> I ask myself why I bother to try to help you, as I live in an EU-country, and I should not care at all about what happens to British people. But I do, as I used to think Britain was great, so tolerant, international and cool. Also I hate bullies in all forms and disguises and people being lied to, that is just not right.


I'm not an economist or am I particularly interested in politics but, in my humble opinion, the remaining EU states need a deal with the UK just as much as we need it. When the UK leaves what's left? Greece, Italy, Spain are in major trouble. The likes of Cyprus, Malta even Belgium & Holland are hardly economic powerhouses so that leaves Germany & possibly France to provide most of the funding for the EU. The UK is Germanys 3rd biggest export market & I, naively perhaps, can't believe that they (or the other 26 states) would jeopardise a beneficial trade deal by allowing the Spanish to veto it over Gibraltar.

It's been 4 days since article 50 was triggered, there's 2 years of talks ahead. Nobody knows the outcome, not me, not you, not even the so called "experts"... yes the grenade that is Gibraltar has been lobbed in the room but it hasn't exploded yet, it might never!
If May & the gov stand firm over Gibraltar then I can see pressure being applied to Spain to modify it's demands & Spain is unlikely to be in a position to refuse.
It would be a disgrace & a national scandal if Gibraltar was cast aside over the next 2 years!

For the record, I didn't vote in the referendum! There was too much spin, scaremongering & guesswork to make a choice... nothing much has changed has it?


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

I think Gibraltar is the first to realise what it means for people and businesses not to be part of EU. Freedom of movement is a pretty good deal and took years, even decades to create. Brexiteers just threw it away like an excess baggage, wishing that they can pick and choose who will get the freedom and who won´t. Now some say that EU should be extra nice to Britain, just to show how nice EU is. Really? Why? 

Personally I hope Gibraltar can stay British, if they want. But who knows, maybe they can create a deal that will be even better for them as part of EU, kind of "independent" nationality like Monaco? Or Vatican? Or Åland Island? (Part of Finland, but with lots of special right benefiting them). Keep your options open. 

Scotland and Northern Ireland benefit from EU and have little to hope from Brexit. Maybe they too should have "special deals" and use to situation. Why not? TM/ Brexiteers doesn´t seem to care at all for them, so why they should care for them. Maybe Gibraltar should join them and form an alliance with them and not with Brexiteers? I´d certainly have a plan B, as empty promises are difficult to eat.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

BlackadderUK said:


> You might know what you want but it's rarely what you get, more it's knowing what you will settle for & what you will settle for is never your starting point in any negotiation.
> The result is always a compromise. When have "ordinary people" ever benefited when big business & politics are involved?
> 
> I'm not an economist or am I particularly interested in politics but, in my humble opinion, the remaining EU states need a deal with the UK just as much as we need it. When the UK leaves what's left? Greece, Italy, Spain are in major trouble. The likes of Cyprus, Malta even Belgium & Holland are hardly economic powerhouses so that leaves Germany & possibly France to provide most of the funding for the EU. The UK is Germanys 3rd biggest export market & I, naively perhaps, can't believe that they (or the other 26 states) would jeopardise a beneficial trade deal by allowing the Spanish to veto it over Gibraltar.


 The result of negotiations depends what you have to bargain, how well you are prepared and how good are your negotiating skills. Brits might be good in negotiating, but preparation is zero, and when it comes to bargaining power - well, EU is stronger. Naturally we will have deals with UK, and we will cooperate with you even in the future. I believe the question is will UK get _better_ deals than before, as that was what you were promised by Brexiteers. NHS will be much better, money will flow to poor people, migration will stop and all those unwanted non Brits will go back, and the good old times will come back.

Small details like Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and Scotland were not really thought of, but then they never are, are they? Nor are the animal rights. labour rights and human rights. Naturally Britain can offer business a country with very little regulations or taxes, many do (like Malta) but then ordinary people really will get the wrong end of the bargain. Big businesses will win, and some will even make huge profits.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Absolutely disgusting. Just four days in to the triggering of Article 50 there's a talk of the possibility of war between a former EU ally.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ior-conservatives-fallon-howard-a7662656.html


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Absolutely disgusting. Just four days in to the triggering of Article 50 there's a talk of the possibility of war between a former EU ally.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ior-conservatives-fallon-howard-a7662656.html
> View attachment 305158


Talking about war is not what Howard meant.
But it would look silly if Britain meekly conceded at first hurdle.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Talking about war is not what Howard meant.
> But it would look silly if Britain meekly conceded at first hurdle.


Not the impression I got. The Falklands "crisis" did lead to war.
What else did they mean by the same, "resolve"?

The terrible thing is THIS COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED.

But people still voted leave dismissing this as scaremongering while one Brexiteer, I won't mention names told you to move to the UK to "embrace" the future!


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Not the impression I got. The Falklands "crisis" did lead to war.
> 
> The terrible thing is THIS COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED.


What could be prevented? Spain has and will likely always make claims towards Gibraltar.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

I hate to be so cynical, but the only reason the British government has ever had any interest in Gibraltar was for strategic reasons. They don't care about the people of Gibraltar, they just care about access to the Mediterranean. 

As Spain is still part of the EU, it may end up being better for the residents of Gibraltar if the land is ceded back to Spain, who knows?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> What could be prevented? Spain has and will likely always make claims towards Gibraltar.


Yes, I know that. While Spain and the UK were nations under the umbrella of the EU any possible military intervention or attempts of a take over would never happen.

Something about the EU having too much say in the affairs of individual countries that was the leave campaign argument.

The same situation would have arisen if it was Spain leaving the EU and not the UK. At least the EU would have looked after the interests of the UK.

But the UK has left, Spain hasn't. The EU must put the interests of their members first.

And quite rightly too in my view.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-off-without-brexit-deal-says-michael-fallon


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

KittenKong said:


> View attachment 305163
> 
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-off-without-brexit-deal-says-michael-fallon
> View attachment 305164


Sensationalism and good headlines, until you remember NATO.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Dr Pepper said:


> Sensationalism and good headlines, until you remember NATO.


Isn't Trump keen to disband NATO?


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## Lurcherlad (Jan 5, 2013)

Dr Pepper said:


> Sensationalism and good headlines, until you remember NATO.


Indeed.

And does Howard speak for Mrs May? I don't think so.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Talk of war is sensationalism press at it once again to hide the fact that behind it all, May's position in the negotiations has not been seen positively. Spain does not need to go to war to make life uncomfortable in Gibraltar. The referendum has already achieved that and "hard brexit" would make life even harder. How many people are happy with the idea of war but would balk at the idea of simply spending a tenner a week to support the rock economically (air bridge)? It happens to someone else unless you are a soldier on active duty. So what is Spain threatening, no trade deal. May's already said, as have many leavers on the EU thread that that is fine and the UK will do fine.. Don't they believe it or we we always going to get contradictions?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Great diplomacy. Its taken us 3 days to threaten war.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Lurcherlad said:


> Indeed.
> 
> And does Howell speak for Mrs May? I don't think so.


Perhaps but it will be recalled what the Falklands war did for Thatcher's ailing support with the TV and media behind her. Whose to say history won't repeat itself?

I sincerely hope it doesn't come to this.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Yes, I know that. While Spain and the UK were nations under the umbrella of the EU any possible military intervention or attempts of a take over would never happen.
> 
> Something about the EU having too much say in the affairs of individual countries that was the leave campaign argument.
> 
> ...


The UK will not engage in military action with Spain so let's get that silly idea out of people's head.

What concerns me though is your statement that the EU must put its members first. I fail to see how causing tension between two countries is putting anyone first really. Or is it a case of "not in my club. Not my problem".


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

stuaz said:


> The UK will not engage in military action with Spain so let's get that silly idea out of people's head.
> 
> What concerns me though is your statement that the EU must put its members first. I fail to see how causing tension between two countries is putting anyone first really. Or is it a case of "not in my club. Not my problem".


Then an top cabinet minister should be more careful with his language.

From day one Cheeky has been telling us brexit would be a disaster for Gibraltar.

This >

_For sixty years the EU has delivered peace to war-torn Europe. 
After four days we're threatening to send the
Royal Navy to sort Spain out._

God almighty.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> The UK will not engage in military action with Spain so let's get that silly idea out of people's head.
> 
> What concerns me though is your statement that the EU must put its members first. I fail to see how causing tension between two countries is putting anyone first really. Or is it a case of "not in my club. Not my problem".


Perhaps you should be telling Michael Howard that, he brought it up after all, not me.

I stand by the EU putting its members first though. It's the behavior of May and her government which is causing tensions between the UK and the EU with her, "My terms, not your terms to her no compromise hard Brexit.

The UK unilaterally decided to leave the EU, the EU is not asking them to leave.

If you were an AA member and your car broke down, would you expect the RAC to come out and fix it?


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

KittenKong said:


> Isn't Trump keen to disband NATO?


He said it was obsolete. As did Marine Le Pen.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Perhaps you should be telling Michael Howard that, he brought it up after all.
> 
> I stand by the EU putting its members first though. It's the behavior of May and her government which is causing tensions between the UK and the EU with her, "My terms, not your terms to her no compromise hard Brexit.
> 
> ...


Should the EU, the beacon of peace in Europe (according to some) just stand by and watch, and allow its members to bully another country, Gibraltar in this instance? Doesn't sound very peaceful does it.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I hate to be so cynical, but the only reason the British government has ever had any interest in Gibraltar was for strategic reasons. They don't care about the people of Gibraltar, they just care about access to the Mediterranean.
> 
> As Spain is still part of the EU, it may end up being better for the residents of Gibraltar if the land is ceded back to Spain, who knows?


No. I will not. We know. It is still country very steeped in frankist ideology.

The level.of corruption in Spain is the highest in Europe. The level of unemployment in town next door is 40%, most who do have work, have it in Gibraltar.
I know how Guardia Civil can act .

Spain traded Gibraltar in 1713. They have no claim at all.

Please, if you do not believe me how things are here then visit us.

Spain needs to sell those package holidays, Rioja and oranges. Britain is the big buyer.
The expats are very important customers too, else Andalusia will be half dead.
Santander invested in Britain. 
So there, no war.
King of Spain is coming for a visit.

Gibraltar is very important part of British heritage, so we do hope that the loyalty of the Rock will be reciprocated.

If Spain has problems with colonies then they can return Ceuta, Melilla and others to Morocco.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> Should the EU, the beacon of peace in Europe (according to some) just stand by and watch, and allow its members to bully another country, Gibraltar in this instance? Doesn't sound very peaceful does it.


But that doesn't give the UK a right to bully the EU either.

The UK chose this, not the EU.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

ouesi said:


> I hate to be so cynical, but the only reason the British government has ever had any interest in Gibraltar was for strategic reasons. They don't care about the people of Gibraltar, they just care about access to the Mediterranean.
> 
> As Spain is still part of the EU, it may end up being better for the residents of Gibraltar if the land is ceded back to Spain, who knows?


NO.
We already lived under closed frontier and did not surrender.

WE ARE BRITISH and STAY BRITISH.

UNLESS BRITAIN decides otherwise.

Not for sale.

NO PASARAN.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> But that doesn't give the UK a right to bully the EU either.
> 
> The UK chose this, not the EU.


No actually, the EU have allowed Spain to bully Gibralter while we have remained members.


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

But why would EU care anymore to them it's just a petty quarrel between the UK and Spain, but to Gibralter it's their life and lively hood we the UK are gambleing with.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> What concerns me though is your statement that the EU must put its members first. I fail to see how causing tension between two countries is putting anyone first really. Or is it a case of "not in my club. Not my problem".


Tell me, is the EU supposed to ignore it's members giving preference to a "non-member"? As far as I am aware it is the UK media which is pushing the war agenda not the EU. Not new, 15th September 2016 Farage was declaring war on the EU according to the media. Didn't May actually say she is prepared to leave negotiations without an agreement? Aren't leavers supporting the idea frequently including on this forum "we don't need the EU? Makes any veto spain may have meaningless if that happens.

Come on, the leave campaign consistently lied about the EU during the leave campaign to create a them vs us situation? In fact Boris along with others was doing this far before the referendum. UK nationalism through the media has done nothing but raise tensions which the EU have hardly responded to other than to state their position which hasn't changed a lot since before the referendum.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> NO.
> We already lived under closed frontier and did not surrender.
> 
> WE ARE BRITISH and STAY BRITISH.
> ...


Gibraltar is only British because Britain wanted access to the Mediterranean. The British government doesn't care about the people of Gibraltar, sorry, but they don't. They just care about the strategic location of Gibraltar.

The other Spanish colonies have nothing to do with it. Spain already has access to the Mediterranean through it's many other ports. Spain loses nothing by leaving Gibraltar to the UK, they'll be happy to make your lives miserable and watch the UK do nothing about it.

However, if Gibraltar becomes part of Spain with Spanish citizens who then vote, you will have more of a voice in how you're treated. 
Not that I think that will happen. Spain just doesn't care. Neither does the UK. Perhaps independence is Gibraltar's best choice?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> No actually, the EU have allowed Spain to bully Gibralter while we have remained members.


I have no wish to get involved concerning a country I have never been to as, frankly it isn't any of my business.

Spain may have attempted this but didn't the EU intervene by keeping the borders open? I'm sure Cheeky said this herself.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Tell me, is the EU supposed to ignore it's members giving preference to a "non-member"? As far as I am aware it is the UK media which is pushing the war agenda not the EU. Not new, 15th September 2016 Farage was declaring war on the EU according to the media. Didn't May actually say she is prepared to leave negotiations without an agreement? Aren't leavers supporting the idea frequently including on this forum "we don't need the EU? Come on, th leave campaign consistently lied about the EU during the leave campaign to create a them vs us situation? In fact Boris along with others was doing this far before the referendum.


I would expect the EU to treat members and non-members the same in matters of self determination under United Nations law.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

ouesi, post: 1064821932, member: 1311755"]Gibraltar is only British because Britain wanted access to the Mediterranean. The British government doesn't care about the people of Gibraltar, sorry, but they don't. They just care about the strategic location of Gibraltar. 
------------------------
Spot on. May was so concerned about Gibraltar she didn't bother mentioning it in her six page Article 50 letter.

What does that tell you?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> I would expect the EU to treat members and non-members the same in matters of self determination under United Nations law.


So tell me, how does closing a border (normal practice for borders) and not agreeing to a trade deal with the UK destroy self determination under UN law? You haven't previously answered that one. Answer is it doesn't according to UN law. If it did the UK would simply take the EU to the international court. You can harp on about self determination all you like. It is up the UK to support Gibraltar including economically.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Gibraltar is only British because Britain wanted access to the Mediterranean. The British government doesn't care about the people of Gibraltar, sorry, but they don't. They just care about the strategic location of Gibraltar.
> 
> The other Spanish colonies have nothing to do with it. Spain already has access to the Mediterranean through it's many other ports. Spain loses nothing by leaving Gibraltar to the UK, they'll be happy to make your lives miserable and watch the UK do nothing about it.
> 
> ...


Hmmm.Spanish colonies have everything to do with it, as this is how Spain support their claim? No more colonies?

If UK was to renounce Gibraltar?
Hope not.

There is very much the national pride here. Being British. Pride of heritage and history.

If we are simply abandoned like unwanted dog....

Then we will see.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Tim Farron's response -


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> I have no wish to get involved concerning a country I have never been to as, frankly it isn't any of my business.
> 
> Spain may have attempted this but didn't the EU intervene by keeping the borders open? I'm sure Cheeky said this herself.


Both are true: Spain bullying and EU interventions to force Spain to get off.
@quesi most of had feelings towards Spanish government here are reactions to the actions against us .
Socialists behaved in more friendly fashion and we had better relationship with them.
PP got in power and wanted to introduce tolls at the frontier!!!
EU stopped it as unlawful - freedom of movement.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

noushka05 said:


> Tim Farron's response -
> 
> View attachment 305180


So what should they say to Spain?.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> So tell me, how does closing a border (normal practice for borders) and not agreeing to a trade deal with the UK destroy self determination under UN law? You haven't previously answered that one. Answer is it doesn't according to UN law. If it did the UK would simply take the EU to the international court. You can harp on about self determination all you like. It is up the UK to support Gibraltar including economically.


They use border controls as a means to strangle the flow of Gibraltar citizens and goods. You can say it's there "right" to do so and to a degree I agree with you but they have alternate motives. They are forcing the Gibraltar people to have no other choice but to have Spain take control (happy with this answer to your question that I have answered already anyway...)


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not an expert, but I believe the people of Gibraltar want to remain British first and foremost, they've done well as Brits.  The majority of Gibraltareans voted for the uk to stay in the eu. Probably mainly because they were worried about this happening if we left. We've left and they want to leave with us, not be handed to Spain, but they will still need access across the border in both directions, not be imprisoned on the Rock, or face delays of hours/days to cross and discriminated against. 

Many English also voted to remain in the eu, should we abandon them too? 

I think it's going to be difficult to come to a deal over it, that keeps everyone happy. It could involve free movement of people as is. I doubt we can expect the eu to allow free movement of the Brits/Gib Brits/Spanish from Gib to Spain/mainland Europe and vice-versa, which is absolutely needed, whilst closing the borders to mainland England. Spain will prob be more than happy to have a say about that. Though maybe the eu will make Gib a special case, negotiations over it stalling with talk of war and Spain wanting it back, isn't going to help, if deciding on separate travel and financial dispensations. I don't know how it's supposed to work, like I said, I'm not an expert.

There's always been a nationalist minority and government lackeys who like to make it difficult and want it back, or at least pretend to, that's nothing to do with Brexit. It's been going on for years, some times worse than others. IIRC at one stage Spain was dumping concrete blocks in the water to restrict our shipping there weren't they and making excuses for checking and double checking everyone, sometimes causing days of delays at the border. Long before we voted to leave the eu. As far as I know the EU can't give Gib back to the Spanish, it's nothing to do with Brussels, but they can get involved in how the border and relationship between Gib and Spain work out and discuss it with the British Government. That's where the focus should be imo. 

I think like the rest of it, we'll have to wait and see and give what support we can. If it comes to it, I hope the British people will support Gibraltar and holiday in places other than Spain if it'll help, at least enough of us to make it noticeable. A sad state of affairs and some old fool talking about war, really?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> They use border controls as a means to strangle the flow of Gibraltar citizens and goods. You can say it's there "right" to do so and to a degree I agree with you but they have alternate motives. They are forcing the Gibraltar people to have no other choice but to have Spain take control (happy with this answer to your question that I have answered already anyway...)


There is always a choice, they can be supported by the UK. Easy no, possible, how much do you know the Berlin airbridge in the late 1940's?

Tell me, isn't May after hard brexit with strong border controls to stop free movement? Isn't this stopping free movement what you are complaining about?


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> There is always a choice, they can be supported by the UK. Tell me, isn't May after hard brexit with strong border controls to stop free movement? Isn't this stopping free movement what you are complaining about?


Nope, this is not to do with free movement. The UK and as a by product Gibraltar is not part of schengen therefore border checks are required already at the border. What I do object to is using the border as a means to punish the residents.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> Nope, this is not to do with free movement. The UK and as a by product Gibraltar is not part of schengen therefore border checks are required already at the border. What I do object to is using the border as a means to punish the residents.


Wrong. It has EVERYTHING to do with free movement and the ending of it. It was the EU who kept the borders open.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Nope, this is not to do with free movement. The UK and as a by product Gibraltar is not part of schengen therefore border checks are required already at the border. What I do object to is using the border as a means to punish the residents.


This is all about free movement or people and goods. People on the Spanish side of the border will probably suffer just as much to be honest.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

cheekyscrip said:


> So what should they say to Spain?.


If this government had an ounce of decency they would be honest & spell out to UK citizens that brexit is going to be a catastrophe (for the economy, the environment & threaten decades of peace) & revoke Article 50


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## kirksandallchins (Nov 3, 2007)

Let Gibraltar have a referendum to decide if they want to become part of Spain or not. But with a proviso that no further referendum can be held for X number of years. Otherwise it will end up like Scotland where the SNP will keep demanding a vote every few years until it goes their way.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

(Richard Corbett MEP)

When Spain joined EU, UK was able to impose
its terms on them on #Gibraltar.
#brexit now gifts Spain a chance to do reverse.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

From the BBC. I saw it live. This vile man was actually smiling when he said that.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

They already had a referendum in 2002. Gibraltar voted 99% in favour of remaining British. I think that's what you call a landslide.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

stuaz said:


> I would expect the EU to treat members and non-members the same in matters of self determination under United Nations law.


Wasn´t the whole idea of Brexit that EU- regulations and values were not good enough for Britain? Now you suggest we should still apply them when dealing with UK? Schengen has nothing to do with United nations, but everything to do with EU. As Britain chose to leave without considering how it would affect Gibraltar, why an earth would EU favour Gibraltar over Spain? That is sad, but unless Gibraltar has something to offer, it will not get a special deal. Naturally it should, if we thought of the people, but this time EU nations will think of us in EU, not outside. I just hope Gibraltar will make deals with Scotland and Northern Ireland and get a good deal with Spain.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

kirksandallchins said:


> Let Gibraltar have a referendum to decide if they want to become part of Spain or not.


We don't need a referendum. What we needed was for May to remember that many people did not support leaving the EU and take their concerns into consideration before handing in Article 50. Amazing really, I heard a politician in an interview stating how this has caught the government etc by surprise. How.. wasn't May talking to others? This has been raised as an issue on these forums even before the referendum.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

This is being shared on twitter >>


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> There is very much the national pride here. Being British. Pride of heritage and history.


Which is kind of ironic given the outcome in the nationalist movement back in Britain....


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Wrong. It has EVERYTHING to do with free movement and the ending of it. It was the EU who kept the borders open.


Nope.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Gibraltar was never anti EU or any threat to Spain.

We should not be punished, abused and kicked about.
There is nothing to justify it.
Not if we recall human rights.
We are the people.
So are those across the border.
None should use us as pawns in their games.
We seek no conflict.

Just want to live our life and if EU stands for the people, then it is not only Syrians Mama Merkel should feel for.

We voted 99% to be British and 96% to be in EU.
Maybe UK and EU should respect our choice no matter of our size?
Spain has no claim since 1713!
We are providing work for 12k Spanish residents, we are not a threat at all.
Just because we are tiny then they can deny our rights?

Because Spain says so?

And stamps their feet?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Which is kind of ironic given the outcome in the nationalist movement back in Britain....


Kind of and not. We stood against Franco's fascist regime. Many of his victims managed to swim to our shores. Offered safety. Father of a friend was a gypsy, who managed to escape from prison and stayed here.
Gibraltar was a hope and freedom.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Nope.


So you deny the UK wants to stop free movement into the UK?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

What really grieves us that EU wants: UK and Spain only to have talks about us.
Without US!!!!!
How that is democracy?

What rights has EU to exclude our government from talks about our future?
We are not sheep, we can represent ourselves.
We are not anti EU. We are not anti UK.
Human rights mean we are allowed to speak for ourselves and decide for ourselves.
IF NI can get access to Ireland for cross border trade so can we.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Let's say Ms May's government did give Gibraltar to the Spanish. What would they do with it? I can't see that it would be remotely advantageous to the Gibraltareans (or Spanish) working there, or even Spain as a whole. I expect the Spanish government has even less of a plan than ours did with Brexit. They don't think it'll happen. They're just having fun at Gibraltar's expense and using it as a distraction. Probably on both sides. 

I expect come Brexit proper the Polish will still be able to come to the uk for work and the Spanish will still be able to go to Gib for a job. They're talking about more border controls for people from outside Europe. So a Syrian, or African who has access to free movement across Europe won't be allowed to carry on to the UK, but a French worker will still be able to get a job here if they want one. Pretty much the same really. Maybe a few more controls on nurses from the Philippines. Although Canada and Australia would like more of a relationship with the uk, I doubt they'll get it. We'll have to wait a bit longer before even the politicians know what's going on, let alone us plebs I expect.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Elles said:


> Let's say Ms May's government did give Gibraltar to the Spanish. What would they do with it? I can't see that it would be remotely advantageous to the Gibraltareans (or Spanish) working there, or even Spain as a whole. I expect the Spanish government has even less of a plan than ours did with Brexit. They don't think it'll happen. They're just having fun at Gibraltar's expense and using it as a distraction. Probably on both sides.
> 
> I expect come Brexit proper the Polish will still be able to come to the uk for work and the Spanish will still be able to go to Gib for a job. They're talking about more border controls for people from outside Europe. So a Syrian, or African who has access to free movement across Europe won't be allowed to carry on to the UK, but a French worker will still be able to get a job here if they want one. Pretty much the same really. Maybe a few more controls on nurses from the Philippines. Although Canada and Australia would like more of a relationship with the uk, I doubt they'll get it. We'll have to wait a bit longer before even the politicians know what's going on, let alone us plebs I expect.


Thought the idea of ending free movement applied to anyone who didn't have UK citizenship. EU countries will be subject to the same treatment as anyone else within the world.

If May wished to maintain free movement within the EEA area she would have opted for the Norway model.

It's May's anti immigration stance that has led to this....


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> What rights has EU to exclude our government from talks about our future?


Because we own your ass and can sell it if we want. :Jawdrop

Seriously, I think it's disgusting. Minister Picardo should be privy to any talks regarding Gibraltar and in the modern world the people who live and work there should take priority, not some politician in Spain, Brussels or London, nor should they be some pawn in negotiations.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> So you deny the UK wants to stop free movement into the UK?


It does and will when they finally leave the EU.

But Spain already causes issues at the border despite the UK being in the EU.

What we will now witness is Spain using the reason of Brexit to ramp up even more problems for Gibraltar.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

From " Sunday Times" today: Picardo lobbied ministers to include Gibraltar in Article 50. May and Davies refused at request of Spain. To the annoyance of Foreign Ministry.
Then Spain run behind May's back to EU to include Gibraltar in EU draft.

TM does not come across as very astute. Neither does Davies.

Fell for simple trick indeed.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> What really grieves us that EU wants: UK and Spain only to have talks about us.
> Without US!!!!!
> How that is democracy?
> 
> ...


Gibraltar is british. As such the the EU are talking with you through the democratically elected UK government who is there to represent you as part of the UK. Just as Scotland is and Northern Ireland. Teresa May is speaking for you and representing you. There's a reason Sturgeon is pushing for another scottish referendum.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> Thought the idea of endings free movement applied to anyone who didn't have UK citizenship.


There's never been shengen here. I think it will stay pretty much the same in the scheme of things. It's only just started and the players at the top have too much to lose by throwing out a cheap workforce, turning away expert professionals at the door, turning their back on europe and accepting strict passport and border controls, nor have the eu any reason to accept it. I just can't see it. Maybe I'm naive and the British Nationalists will get what they want. No foreigners taking us jobs round here.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> But Spain already causes issues at the border despite the UK being in the EU.


Remind me, don't we have border checks on both sides of the French/UK border? Last time I went through they were still there although as a member of the EU we were fast tracked. Are we part of the Shengen area? Didn't the UK opt out of it to control our own borders?


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> What really grieves us that EU wants: UK and Spain only to have talks about us.
> Without US!!!!!
> How that is democracy?
> 
> ...


Is it up to EU to include your government in the talks? Genuine question. I think EU has as much power over this as it does over what happens with Scotland. Surely it is the British government who must make sure that all of it's parts are happy with the outcome? As they keep saying... we're all in this together. In Brexit there's only two sides: UK who is leaving EU and EU with all of it's staying members. Everything that happens in Gibraltar and Scotland directly depends on May rather than EU?


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## rona (Aug 18, 2011)

Was Scotland and NI mentioned in article 50?


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Remind me, don't we have border checks on both sides of the French/UK border? Last time I went through they were still there although as a member of the EU we were fast tracked. Are we part of the Shengen area? Didn't the UK opt out of it to control our own borders?


We do. It sure the point your trying to make here. The border situation at Gibraltar is very different to that of the French ones.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> Is it up to EU to include your government in the talks? Genuine question. I think EU has as much power over this as it does over what happens with Scotland. Surely it is the British government who must make sure that all of it's parts are happy with the outcome? As they keep saying... we're all in this together. In Brexit there's only two sides: UK who is leaving EU and EU with all of it's staying members. Everything that happens in Gibraltar and Scotland directly depends on May rather than EU?


What about Ireland / NI? I think the border would have to stay open for cross border trade.
We need that kind of open frontier. Checks are anyhow, but they do not need really to make everyone wait for hours!!!
If they want to check a car they can take it aside? Without blocking the rest?
If they need to search some the rest can carry on?
Our economy does not rely on tobacco. Poor Spanish people do.
We rely on crossborder trade, tourism and workforce from Spain.
We also rely on our tax regulations and our jurisdiction.
Basically our economy is based on tourism, financial sector, gaming industry and dockyard s, bunkering etc.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> What about Ireland / NI? I think the border would have to stay open for cross border trade.


No guarantee there either but at least May seemed to be thinking about it before article 50.

I realise where you are coming from. I'm against brexit as you know and actually approve of free movement. Wouldn't be where I am without it. The policies which will determine the future for NI and Gibraltar however will be at the hands of the UK government acting on the result of the referendum and those who supported leaving.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Remind me, don't we have border checks on both sides of the French/UK border?


I could be Syrian trying to get into the UK. tbh I don't remember doing anything other than occasionally having to flash my passport as I go through an airport. Other than the day after 9/11 when everything was checked and double checked. The Gibraltar border is a totally different kettle of fish. It's the Spanish restricting free (any) movement and they're supposed to have wanted it as part of the EU. Anyone sat in a car for 6 hours waiting for Spanish border control at Gibraltar will tell how keen they are on it and that's when we are part of the EU, dread to think how they'll use it now we aren't, especially if the EU support Spain over the traitor Brits.

Spain don't want Scotland, or to do anything different from the eu to them that's the difference. The Gibraltar minister should be involved, because Spain wants them and wants to restrict them and stick their nose in over and above the EU. Ms May and the EU should ask Gib what they want before agreeing to anything with Spain. Gibraltar didn't vote for May, they have Picardo. Mind you, we didn't vote for May either. 

If Spain can negotiate separately as a part of the EU over Gibraltar, then Gibraltar should have a say. No-one wants separate negotiations over Scotland. No-one else wants it.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

rona said:


> Was Scotland and NI mentioned in article 50?


Oh, very much so. You can find full text online. Here is a bit:








Foreign Ministry wanted some such paragraph on Gibraltar.
May and Davies refused, despite bring warned of possible consequences.
Obviously UK has another land border in EU.
Our border.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> No guarantee there either but at least May seemed to be thinking about it before article 50.
> 
> I realise where you are coming from. I'm against brexit as you know and actually approve of free movement. Wouldn't be where I am without it. The policies which will determine the future for NI and Gibraltar however will be at the hands of the UK government acting on the result of the referendum and those who supported leaving.


It should be Mr Picardo talking to EU and UK. Still why they should talk about us without us?

That is not democracy or protection of human rights.
I am talking about principles.

We did nothing to be thrown to Spain.
Why should EU support Spain who have no claim at all?
Traded Gibraltar in 1713?
It is not whom they like, or who is bigger.
We are tiny, but they have no claim and no right to bully us.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> If Spain can negotiate separately as a part of the EU over Gibraltar, then Gibraltar should have a say. No-one wants separate negotiations over Scotland. No-one else wants it.


The clause could be interpreted as handing Spain a veto over the Gibraltar provisions in a post-Brexit deal if they don't like it. That is not the same as Spain negotiating separately. It gets complicated as negotiation about leaving the EU and any trade negotiations are separate as I understand it. May is constantly trying to link them together which is not possible under EU regulations. Trade policies etc can be vetoed by any member state. Think the leave negotiations is a majority but now in matters of Gibraltar, Spain has a veto. Much like the UK had vetos over several areas of immediate concern whilst in the EU. EU army for example. Doesn't make it right, simply means negotiations will be much harder. May will have to push the other countries into pressuring Spain which weakens her negotiation options.



cheekyscrip said:


> It should be Mr Picardo talking to EU and UK.


Why? Is Sturgeon allowed to negotiate or the Welsh equivalent? May has taken it upon herself to speak for the entire UK, even those who do not wish to leave the EU declaring the referendum provides the mandate to do so.

Edit: Rumor has it that Ireland has asked for a veto regarding Northern Ireland.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> The clause could be interpreted as handing Spain a veto over the Gibraltar provisions in a post-Brexit deal if they don't like it. That is not the same as Spain negotiating separately. It gets complicated as negotiation about leaving the EU and any trade negotiations are separate as I understand it. May is constantly trying to link them together which is not possible under EU regulations. Trade policies etc can be vetoed by any member state. Think the leave negotiations is a majority but now in matters of Gibraltar, Spain has a veto. Much like the UK had vetos over several areas of immediate concern whilst in the EU. EU army for example. Doesn't make it right, simply means negotiations will be much harder. May will have to push the other countries into pressuring Spain which weakens her negotiation options.
> 
> Why? Is Sturgeon allowed to negotiate or the Welsh equivalent? May has taken it upon herself to speak for the entire UK, even those who do not wish to leave the EU declaring the referendum provides the mandate to do so.
> 
> Edit: Rumor has it that Ireland has asked for a veto regarding Northern Ireland.


All we feel that May failed us by not including us in Article 50 by request from Spain.
EU failed us giving veto to Spain KNOWING how Spain treats us.
Personally blame both sides of using us.
While we were loyal British subjects and loyal supporters of EU.
None of them behaved decently towards our little community.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Nicola Sturgeon has been chatting to Ms May. There was an article in the Daily Mail about who dressed the best for the meeting.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Elles said:


> Nicola Sturgeon has been chatting to Ms May. There was an article in the Daily Mail about who dressed the best for the meeting.


Unbelievable isn't it! Pure sexist claptrap.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Really nice messages send by Spanish folks from across the frontier.
Support and solidarity. We are in it together.
Not Westminster or Madrid. Or Brussels.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

What we didn't need to see this morning....


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Had a quick glance at BBC this morning and seems like May has spoken to Picardo and assured him that she will be including him in the discussions? Or at least that's how I understood it?


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

shadowmare said:


> Had a quick glance at BBC this morning and seems like May has spoken to Picardo and assured him that she will be including him in the discussions? Or at least that's how I understood it?


I've got to the stage that I don't believe anything that woman say's, let hope for once she's telling the truth.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> Really nice messages send by Spanish folks from across the frontier.
> Support and solidarity. We are in it together.
> Not Westminster or Madrid. Or Brussels.


They are softening you up

I mean in reality whats the worst that can happen...............


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

Happy Paws said:


> I've got to the sage that I don't believe anything that woman say's, let hope for once she's telling the truth.


Oh I definitely know what you mean! I just thought Picardo seemed to be somewhat more positive about "being involved" than Sturgeon is. 
Anything that woman says sounds like empty words. Brexit is Brexit.... when she spoke about hoping to keep deep and meaningful relationship with EU I actually laughed because it sounded like the good old break up line "I don't love you anymore but I still want to stay friends":Hilarious


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> Oh I definitely know what you mean! I just thought Picardo seemed to be somewhat more positive about "being involved" than Sturgeon is.
> Anything that woman says sounds like empty words. Brexit is Brexit.... when she spoke about hoping to keep deep and meaningful relationship with EU I actually laughed because it sounded like the good old break up line "I don't love you anymore but I still want to stay friends":Hilarious


Lovely comments from our office cleaner, Spanish lady.
" Your May trusted our government? Should have asked us? No one in Spain believes in our government! The worst government in Europe!!!"
" Why English leave Europe to Germans? How stupid!!! So now we all are ( insert common swearing).Now we all will be ruled by Germans!".

So much for our feisty muchacha.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> They are softening you up
> 
> I mean in reality whats the worst that can happen...............


Collapse of our economy and 30k bankrupt Brits coming back to UK, penniless, homeless?

The pets possibly put down and the environment destroyed.

It will quickly ruined by Spanish, corrupt on every level.

Spain has the highest level of corruption in Europe. 
And there is stiff competition there...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

shadowmare said:


> Oh I definitely know what you mean! I just thought Picardo seemed to be somewhat more positive about "being involved" than Sturgeon is.
> Anything that woman says sounds like empty words. Brexit is Brexit.... when she spoke about hoping to keep deep and meaningful relationship with EU I actually laughed because it sounded like the good old break up line "I don't love you anymore but I still want to stay friends":Hilarious


Sturgeon has options, they have no foreign power on their doorstep.
I cannot tell them what is best for them, but they can go solo, we cannot.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> The clause could be interpreted as handing Spain a veto over the Gibraltar provisions in a post-Brexit deal if they don't like it. That is not the same as Spain negotiating separately. It gets complicated as negotiation about leaving the EU and any trade negotiations are separate as I understand it. May is constantly trying to link them together which is not possible under EU regulations. Trade policies etc can be vetoed by any member state. Think the leave negotiations is a majority but now in matters of Gibraltar, Spain has a veto. Much like the UK had vetos over several areas of immediate concern whilst in the EU. EU army for example. Doesn't make it right, simply means negotiations will be much harder. May will have to push the other countries into pressuring Spain which weakens her negotiation options.
> 
> Why? Is Sturgeon allowed to negotiate or the Welsh equivalent? May has taken it upon herself to speak for the entire UK, even those who do not wish to leave the EU declaring the referendum provides the mandate to do so.
> 
> Edit: Rumor has it that Ireland has asked for a veto regarding Northern Ireland.


Remember when West Germany was united with Eastern? Nor very happy the Western were...but oh ..what to do! In relation to Ireland /NI.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

kirksandallchins said:


> Let Gibraltar have a referendum to decide if they want to become part of Spain or not. But with a proviso that no further referendum can be held for X number of years. Otherwise it will end up like Scotland where the SNP will keep demanding a vote every few years until it goes their way.


We had . Two. Results were the same 99% British. Last in 2002 and nothing changed. Unless May dumps us to Spain.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Seeing May found Howard's comments yesterday funny without actually condemning his vile words I'll do it for her with a little help from Reasons to Remain:


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## Happy Paws2 (Sep 13, 2008)

ouesi said:


> The other Spanish colonies have nothing to do with it. *Spain already has access to the Mediterranean through it's many other ports. *Spain loses nothing by leaving Gibraltar to the UK, they'll be happy to make your lives miserable and watch the UK do nothing about it.


Yes, but if any Spainish shipping from the north of Spain wanting to get into the Mediterranean, it will to go though the Straights of Gibraltar, thats between Morocco and Gibraltar, same as any of their ships going into the Atlantic Ocean.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Six days after triggering Article 50. I thought I'd been transported back to 1982....

The paper is also widely sold in Spain....


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

That is our Picardo. Si now he called Tusk " cabron".
" The Sun" is not read by Spanish.
Anyhow here around us in Andalusia people have very poor opinion of their government so probably would laugh.

Many messages from Spain showing support for us.
Spain ceded Gibraltar in 1713. Many Spaniards realise that all " Gibraltar talk" is just government strategy to take attention from issues that actually MATTER:unemployment, corruption, pollution....
This country also has intelligent citizens who do not fall for the dame propaganda since time of Franco!!!

Last thing they need for their economy is quarrel with Britain, their best client.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Spanish media blame May.


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## Honeys mum (Jan 11, 2013)

Gibraltar 'not for sale', Boris Johnson declares as Tories hit back over 'Spanish land grab' 

Hope this is true for you cheekyscrip, and that you can soon feel safe again.x


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Honeys mum said:


> Gibraltar 'not for sale', Boris Johnson declares as Tories hit back over 'Spanish land grab'
> 
> Hope this is true for you cheekyscrip, and that you can soon feel safe again.x


We need diplomats not incompetent blundering fools.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Spanish media blame May.
> View attachment 305378
> View attachment 305379


I blame May too.

She was the one to trigger Article 50 last week with her, "No compromise" approach.

Take Gibraltar out of the single market and the end of free movement despite a 97% vote to remain in the EU.

Why do people think the Northern Ireland peace process worked so well for 20 years?

That was down to COMPROMISE.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> I blame May too.
> 
> She was the one to trigger Article 50 last week with her, "No compromise" approach.
> 
> Take Gibraltar out of the single market and the end of free movement despite a 97% vote to remain in the EU.


May had no choice, the referendum said leave, the MP's said leave (twice) why wouldnt she trigger Article 50 and on what grounds?

Gib will stay in the single market if Spain win it back and 97% voted to stay in the EU (as you said)


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> We need diplomats not incompetent blundering fools.


Who mentioned Corbyn?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Colliebarmy said:


> Gib will stay in the single market if Spain win it back and 97% voted to stay in the EU (as you said)


This is what I find difficult to understand.

Gibraltar voted 97% to remain in the EU.
They had a referendum in 2002 where 99%voted to remain part of the UK.

In 2002 the UK was a full member of the EU with no withdrawal referendums forthcoming.

While the colony remains, "British" they'll have to endure a hard Brexit with the ending of free movement and withdrawal from the single market along with the rest of the UK.

Yet they're saying they want to remain, "British". A Spanish take over as you say would automatically re-instate them into the EU with the benefits they enjoy at present.

Spain are in the EU and are no longer in a dictatorship. They would be subject to EU muscle if they did try anything like close the borders which could well happen anyway with the UK leaving, but the UK will be doing that.

Of course, at the end of the day it's up to Gibraltarians' whether to remain under UK control or not. I argue the same for Scotland and Northern Ireland.

I would hope the UK government will reach a compromise situation where it remains under UK control (if the people want that) but are excepted from the ending of free movement and the single market.

Then, for them to do that they would have to do it for Scotland and Northern Ireland too.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Colliebarmy said:


> Who mentioned Corbyn?


Not me.

Nice attempt at getting this despicable government off the hook mind 
*
The Theresa May Guide To What's Important 
In Today's News.*


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> May had no choice, the referendum said leave, the MP's said leave (twice) why wouldnt she trigger Article 50 and on what grounds?
> 
> Gib will stay in the single market if Spain win it back and 97% voted to stay in the EU (as you said)


Dear CB cannot get it: If someone voted to Remain in EU, they voted as British.
They did not vote to change their nationality.
As British patriots chose what they think is the best in interest of Britain, not EU.
Or any nation.
As the result of Brexit Britain will be impoverished, diminished and split.
Germany and France will #take control of EU.

EU behaved really badly towards Gibraltar.

Actually there was no need for that at all.
Would you poison neighbours' cat just because you do not like them?

Spain has no rights to Gibraltar. Ceded it in 1713 in trade off fir other colonies, concessions etc.

Spanish people work here, trade and really wish Rajoy let them live in peace.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Voting to Remain in the EU and Voting to remain British, are two *very* different votes.

In the same way a vote for Remain in Scotland does not equate to also voting for independence from the UK.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stuaz said:


> Voting to Remain in the EU and Voting to remain British, are two *very* different votes.
> 
> In the same way a vote for Remain in Scotland does not equate to also voting for independence from the UK.


Absolutely.
For us becoming Spanish is doom.
Closing frontier is doom.
Joined sovereignty with Spain on our doorstep and Britain far away is just as good as being given to Spain, pretending to British public it did not happen.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

noushka05 said:


> Not me.
> 
> Nice attempt at getting this despicable government off the hook mind
> *
> ...


Well, May does seem to think she's on a mission from God....



stuaz said:


> Voting to Remain in the EU and Voting to remain British, are two *very* different votes.
> 
> In the same way a vote for Remain in Scotland does not equate to also voting for independence from the UK.


Well yes and no.

With such opposite results from both referendums, remembering Scotland and Gibraltar's results depended on the UK being in the EU.

With the EU referendum unanimously supporting a remain vote in these countries and NI it should be up to the people, not May, to decide whether remaining in the UK is more important than being in the EU.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

> Gibraltarians have rights to free movement in EU without many hours of queue made by Spain


Unfortunately with the UK out of the EU you don't.



Colliebarmy said:


> May had no choice, the referendum said leave, the MP's said leave (twice) why wouldnt she trigger Article 50 and on what grounds?


May has plenty of choices. Not least the the simple fact that the referendum was non-binding. Then of course she could actually act on the concerns of people who aren't simply english and make allowances as to how to deal with their potential problems. She could actually learn to listen, not simply dictate and have people around her who do not simply say "yes maam". She could even listen to the people of the UK rather than the foreigners running the UK media.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Unfortunately with the UK out of the EU you don't.
> 
> May has plenty of choices. Not least the the simple fact that the referendum was non-binding. Then of course she could actually act on the concerns of people who aren't simply english and make allowances as to how to deal with their potential problems. She could actually learn to listen, not simply dictate and have people around her who do not simply say "yes maam". She could even listen to the people of the UK rather than the foreigners running the UK media.


She's exactly listening to the people of the UK by implementing the withdrawal from the EU, just as the majority of the voting public asked her (well her party) to do. How the hell did you miss that?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> She's exactly listening to the people of the UK by implementing the withdrawal from the EU, just as the majority of the voting public asked her (well her party) to do. How the hell did you miss that?


Time changes, the majority of the voting public as a snapshot is not the voice of the majority of the public now when the impact is better known. Like the opinion polls which show people have changed their minds, like the fact even leavers cannot decide what "brexit" means. Guessed you missed those little points.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> Time changes, the majority of the voting public as a snapshot is not the voice of the majority of the public now when the impact is better known. Like the opinion polls which show people have changed their minds, like the fact even leavers cannot decide what "brexit" means. Guessed you missed those little points.


Didn't miss anything, polls have proved to be as reliable as a 1970's Skoda Estelle lately. And as has been said before, I'm more than confident that people realised exactly what voting "leave" meant, apart from the remainers of course.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Didn't miss anything, polls have proved to be as reliable as a 1970's Skoda Estelle lately.


The referendum was simply an opinion poll. Non-binding to get the opinion of the population. So you don't agree with them unless they go your way. Sums it up.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Well yes and no.
> 
> With such opposite results from both referendums, remembering Scotland and Gibraltar's results depended on the UK being in the EU.
> 
> With the EU referendum unanimously supporting a remain vote in these countries and NI it should be up to the people, not May, to decide whether remaining in the UK is more important than being in the EU.


I disagree that Gibraltars referendum about being British had any connection to the EU and if the UK was part of it. I believe if there was another Referendum in Gibraltar today, they would vote to remain British again.

I also don't believe the Scottish one will be the landslide victory to leave the UK. I suspect it will be equally as close as it was last time, as I say again, ones nationality is very different to being a member of the EU, a trading bloc.


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> The referendum was simply an opinion poll. Non-binding to get the opinion of the population. So you don't agree with them unless they go your way. Sums it up.


Did you actually vote? If you had you'd have seen the promise to implement the results of it. This was.......

Bollocks to it, talk about a waste of time , how many times had this been discussed on this forum now?


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

For those who voted to stay "European"


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

stuaz said:


> being a member of the EU, a trading bloc.


If thats ALL it was we wouldnt be leaving... but its political....Legal.... financial ................and would be military if some were given the chance

as for Eurovision...**** me, it should be good this year


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Quite apt...


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

The day we leave EU we should have the biggest kick ass party since VE day


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

GB


KittenKong said:


> Well, May does seem to think she's on a mission from God....
> 
> Well yes and no.
> 
> ...


The difference is: Scotland can be independent country in their own right, with no danger of attack from their neighbours. Doubt English or Norwegian would attack them.

You cannot really talk about independence if you 30k strong, armed with pea shooters and have hostile Spain next door?

Scots have more than two options. There are many in- between varieties of association with EU or UK.

@Goblin as you know local arrangements can be made.
More that if British public made very clear that they will support Gibraltar, even at the expense of tapas and sangria..They can always go to Portugal if one must.
Or visit the Rock.
Spain does not need Gibraltar.
More than to create diversion.
If it spoilt their relationship with Britain than they are those to lose.

War with Spain...?
Easy. Anytime between 2-4 pm, or anytime it rains.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

Its not Scotland BEING attacked that worries us, its Scotland invading England that matters


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Colliebarmy said:


> Its not Scotland BEING attacked that worries us, its Scotland invading England that matters


No worries. They would build a wall and deport all illegals back to Sunderland.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> Did you actually vote? If you had you'd have seen the promise to implement the results of it.


What like the promise that the conservative government would strengthen our commitment to the single market while in power? If they wanted the referendum to be binding they could have made it so. So please provide the evidence that the referendum was binding under the constitution, not based on what politicians said or do I need to go through the lies of the politicians, especially those pushing to leave once again if all you are basing it on is a politicians word. Strangely those who like your post are unable to do so.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

The pledge and the reality


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> The referendum was simply an opinion poll. Non-binding to get the opinion of the population. So you don't agree with them unless they go your way. Sums it up.


Can we put this constant whine regarding the referendum being non binding to bed once and for a please!

Obviously with my limited vocabulary due to my inadequate education, verified let me remind others due to my voting preferences this is going to be exceedingly difficult. I am therefore, going to try and, put this in plain english!.

As per the EU referendum act of 2015 (c36) this is legal decision made to allow for a non binding referendum to be held in great britain!

There! You are right!

But, can we all be reminded that prior to that referendum there was a re election of government you will all remember we that ukip were gaining popularity due to their constant and relentless champagne focused on that one subject.

Cameron used the slogan the only way to get a vote on eu membership was to vote him in another term.

well we all know the result of that election so can we not fast forward please.

Taking into account that camaron had won by a majority and that the eu membership was used as ammunition he had no choice but to run the referendum.

Obviously he was certain remain would win, never did he state, nor never was it advised other the in the origin act that it was to be a non binding referendum

He went into that vote thinking he would win, never did it enter his head the reverse would happen, the conservatives chose on this occasion to listen to the majority over the minority they really had no choice!

Now, may we move on please


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> I disagree that Gibraltars referendum about being British had any connection to the EU and if the UK was part of it. I believe if there was another Referendum in Gibraltar today, they would vote to remain British again.
> 
> I also don't believe the Scottish one will be the landslide victory to leave the UK. I suspect it will be equally as close as it was last time, as I say again, ones nationality is very different to being a member of the EU, a trading bloc.


Things change in a few years.

Of course they could choose to stay "British" despite being taken out of the single market with free movement ended.

But the people should make that choice, not Theresa May making that choice for them.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Can we put this constant whine regarding the referendum being non binding to bed once and for a please!


So you agree, as does Farage that it was a non-binding referendum.. an opinion poll. Politicians did have a choice, that of putting the well being of the country, including places like Gibraltar first. They still have that choice.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So you agree, as does Farage that it was a non-binding referendum.. an opinion poll. Politicians did have a choice, that of putting the well being of the country, including places like
> 
> 
> Goblin said:
> ...


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So you agree, as does Farage that it was a non-binding referendum.. an opinion poll. Politicians did have a choice, that of putting the well being of the country, including places like Gibraltar first.


its immaterial, unimportant, the government, for once did the right thing, they chose to honour their pledge and listen to the voice of the people
The fact that teressa may overlooked Gibraltar I am afraid you will need to take up with her!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Goblin said:


> What like the promise that the conservative government would strengthen our commitment to the single market while in power? If they wanted the referendum to be binding they could have made it so. So please provide the evidence that the referendum was binding under the constitution, not based on what politicians said or do I need to go through the lies of the politicians, especially those pushing to leave once again if all you are basing it on is a politicians word. Strangely those who like your post are unable to do so.


I pity your irrational thought process, you are now criticising the remain campaign. You are confused as to whom you voted for aren't you. Thank the Lord the leave vote won.

FOR THE LAST TIME, the referendum may not have been legally binding, but WITHOUT DOUBT from the very off it was democratically binding. And even Mr Cameron acknowledged that.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> I pity your irrational thought process, you are now criticising the remain campaign. You are confused as to whom you voted for aren't you. Thank the Lord the leave vote won.
> 
> FOR THE LAST TIME, the referendum may not have been legally binding, but WITHOUT DOUBT from the very off it was democratically binding. And even Mr Cameron acknowledged that.


If ever a post deserved green rep this is it!
I'm at the point where I need a hammer and chisel


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

something has been bugging me for a long time. 
For those that want the Government to ignore the wishes of the majority of people (to leave EU), do you really think the EU will just ignore the fact that the majority voted out? That we can carry on as before? 
Also, if the Government choose to ignore this vote, what stops them from ignoring other votes in the future?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> The referendum was simply an opinion poll. Non-binding to get the opinion of the population. So you don't agree with them unless they go your way. Sums it up.


No! That sums you up!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Dr Pepper said:


> I pity your irrational thought process, you are now criticising the remain campaign.





> FOR THE LAST TIME, the referendum may not have been legally binding, but WITHOUT DOUBT from the very off it was democratically binding. And even Mr Cameron acknowledged that.


Constitionally and democratically are the same thing. Or are you saying we don't live in a democracy according to the constitution? The government could have made it binding.. they didn't.

As for irrational criticising the remain campaign. Both they and the whole referendum was a shambles designed for personal political reasons rather than any other purpose. Look at the question.. leave or stay without the terms being known for leaving or even what form it would take. I know leavers know it all and "brexit means brexit". Shame the terms are still not known. Informed choice?



Animallover26 said:


> something has been bugging me for a long time.
> For those that want the Government to ignore the wishes of the majority of people (to leave EU), do you really think the EU will just ignore the fact that the majority voted out? That we can carry on as before


Well considering it was non-binding then yes they could. Referendums are a tools to guide, not dictate governmental policy. In addition the government could simply hold another vote which likely wouldn't go the same way. One which asks the question when the terms of leaving are known and people can make an informed choice. May doesn't want that though does she, wonder why?



> Also, if the Government choose to ignore this vote, what stops them from ignoring other votes in the future?


Well they could make any referendum to be binding, they have before.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Animallover26 said:


> something has been bugging me for a long time.
> For those that want the Government to ignore the wishes of the majority of people (to leave EU), do you really think the EU will just ignore the fact that the majority voted out? That we can carry on as before?
> Also, if the Government choose to ignore this vote, what stops them from ignoring other votes in the future?


Exactly! Think there are some who would like the best of three! Or flip a coin maybe


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Exactly! Think there are some who would like the best of three! Or flip a coin maybe


So please tell me the precise terms which you voted for in terms of leaving as you obviously made an informed choice with all the details available. Include Gibraltar in those terms as that is what this thread actually is about.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> So please tell me the precise terms which you voted for in terms of leaving as you obviously made an informed choice with all the details available.


Can you be a little more specific explaining the information you require?
Do you want to know whom I voted for in the general election, or do you need me to confirm how I voted in the referendum!


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

The precise terms which you agree with leaving the EU with. What trade agreement arrangements etc. Gibraltar border terms, Irish border terms etc. You know what you voted for because you made an informed choice.

Or do you think once those terms are known, people should be able to decide?


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> The precise terms which you agree with leaving the EU with. What trade agreement arrangements etc. Gibraltar border terms, Irish border terms etc. You know what you voted for because you made an informed choice.
> 
> Or do you think once those terms are known, people should be able to decide?


Why or course, I never agreed to any terms, I wasn't aware there were any, I recall listening to endless debates, some on a Sunday morning, others on a Thursday evening, I also recall reading reams and reams of gobbledidick, maybe you helped write it?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Not a British one in Spanish waters?
Who looks for a fight?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DT said:


> Why or course, I never agreed to any terms, I wasn't aware there were any, I recall listening to endless debates, some on a Sunday morning, others on a Thursday evening, I also recall reading reams and reams of gobbledidick, maybe you helped write it?


Thank you for saying and admitting you didn't know what you actually voted for in the referendum.


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Thank you for saying and admitting you didn't know what you actually voted for in the referendum.


You are so funny, but please don't give up the day job


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> View attachment 305434
> 
> Not a British one in Spanish waters?
> Who looks for a fight?


SKY = SUN = MURDOCH

This is how the Guardian reported this:


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## 1290423 (Aug 11, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Thank you for saying and admitting you didn't know what you actually voted for in the referendum.


pssss I've remembered one of the reasons, I hate the smell of Brussel sprouts, but they are the otherhalfs favourites, but voting leave we would be allowed then anymore so I sharnt be forced to cook them

Think there were perhaps a couple more reasons, I'll try and remember and get back to you


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Animallover26 said:


> something has been bugging me for a long time.
> For those that want the Government to ignore the wishes of the majority of people (to leave EU), do you really think the EU will just ignore the fact that the majority voted out? That we can carry on as before?
> Also, if the Government choose to ignore this vote, what stops them from ignoring other votes in the future?


The referendum question asked NOTHING about how to actually leave the EU however. The Norway and Swiss method's were discussed as possibilities and withdrawal from the single market not considered.

Even perhaps the most extreme of Brexiteers on this forum seemed to think so (EEC should read EEA of course).

















The referendum paper didn't ask to leave the EEA, only to leave the EU.

Likewise it didn't ask to leave the EU and stay within the EEA and single market.

It was flawed, badly flawed.

That's why, rather than have a second "clearer" referendum the government should be looking at a compromise.

The Norway and Swiss method works for them.

The UK would still leave the EU which is what was asked on the referendum paper which 52% of voters voted for.

That would settle any arguments about going against the "Will of the people".


----------



## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

KittenKong said:


> The referendum question asked NOTHING about how to actually leave the EU however. The Norway and Swiss method's were discussed as possibilities and withdrawal from the single market not considered.
> 
> Even perhaps the most extreme of Brexiteers on this forum seemed to think so (EEC should read EEA of course).
> 
> ...


Compromises are fine, it would be very odd if there were not any. I just don't understand those who are saying the government should go against the majority.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> SKY = SUN = MURDOCH
> 
> This is how the Guardian reported this:
> View attachment 305442


Which under international law is absurd. Spain obviously knows that.
You have shore, you have territorial waters. 12 miles, though we only claim 3.
Also Spain does not recognise our air. We breath Spanish air according to them.
Therefore they do not recognise our complaints about air pollution by refinery next door or waste dumped from sewers directly into our waters next to the frontier.
Nice.

Still surprised we are not happy to be Spanish?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Animallover26 said:


> Compromises are fine, it would be very odd if there were not any. I just don't understand those who are saying the government should go against the majority.


Funny. It usually happens.
Majority wants 350 mln weekly for NHS and it is off the table.

I am sure Leavers would agree.
Majority wants wages to grow and prices to fall but Brexit means the opposite.


----------



## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> Funny. It usually happens.
> Majority wants 350 mln weekly for NHS and it is off the table.
> 
> I am sure Leavers would agree.
> Majority wants wages to grow and prices to fall *but Brexit means the opposite*.


Away you go, @cheekyscip. No need for scaremongering. 
Britain will be great again... just like.... you know... back in... 19th century? ompus (genuinely have no clue when this specific "great time" was as I'm a dirty immigrant who at the same time steals jobs and does feck all living on benefits) you just wait and see 

On a serious note - i do hope that the situation will be cleared up and clear terms will be agreed on sooner rather than later for you. This is just even more unnecessary uncertainty  can we not just fast forward time to 2019 now?


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> Which under international law is absurd. Spain obviously knows that.
> You have shore, you have territorial waters. 12 miles, though we only claim 3.
> Also Spain does not recognise our air. We breath Spanish air according to them.
> Therefore they do not recognise our complaints about air pollution by refinery next door or waste dumped from sewers directly into our waters next to the frontier.
> ...


Don't dispute that at all. I was just pointing out this is nothing new, yet the gutter press are reporting this as a new issue to justify their hideous Falklands like comparisons.

Funny how this didn't bother the press before until now.....


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> Don't dispute that at all. I was just pointing out this is nothing new, yet the gutter press are reporting this as a new issue to justify their hideous Falklands like comparisons.
> 
> Funny how this didn't bother the press before until now.....


Press!!!
Must say that this very unsuspicious start to negotiations with EU is very much due to not providing firm , legal assurance for EU nationals in UK.

Who came legally and law does not work backwards.

As is it UK leaving then it would be a right gesture to take care of the people.

Maybe then EU would not listen to Spain?

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

So far EU nationals are worried, expats are worried, Gibraltar and Campo de Gibraltar feel truly insecure.
All that could have been on much better footing.

A bit of fair play, especially where the livehoods of ordinary people are at stake.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

The latest news: our IDs are now according to Spain invalid and cannot be used to cross the frontier.
Why?

Ask them.
EU voted that Gibraltar is not important and no amendments. No matter what we wish for, how we voted. Though it is different for NI and Scotland.
Apparently size matters.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

http://chronicle.gi/2017/01/schengen-changes-will-bring-tighter-border-controls/

Was already happening, before Brexit?

As we (including Gib) are leaving the EU we'll need passports probably.


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## shadowmare (Jul 7, 2013)

cheekyscrip said:


> The latest news: our IDs are now according to Spain invalid and cannot be used to cross the frontier.
> Why?
> 
> Ask them.
> ...


What is different for Scotland? As far as I'm aware it's been made very clear over and over again by the government that Scotland isn't getting a different deal?


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

Yeah, it was reported that Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar weren't mentioned separately, as TM didn't want them to appear separate, as they aren't. If Spain wanted to bring up Gib, that would be up to them. If we did, it would seem that we don't see Gib as British and give Spain ammo. 

On the other thread you say Spain has stopped your niece going home to Gib from Spain with no warning, by suddenly not accepting her id? That's a bit previous isn't it? Nothing has been arranged about passports and id yet. I doubt they'll get away with refusing id today that was legally accepted according to EU rule yesterday. Spain are still part of the EU. They'd be a bit silly changing the rules, if they want the rest of the EU to be sympathetic to them. 

Has she managed to get home yet? From the article I linked, it looks as though it'll be quicker for those with a passport anyway, if the automatic readers can't recognise Gib ids. Maybe she tried one of the automated readers and it refused her id and she has to be manually passed?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Elles said:


> Yeah, it was reported that Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar weren't mentioned separately, as TM didn't want them to appear separate, as they aren't. If Spain wanted to bring up Gib, that would be up to them. If we did, it would seem that we don't see Gib as British and give Spain ammo.
> 
> On the other thread you say Spain has stopped your niece going home to Gib from Spain with no warning, by suddenly not accepting her id? That's a bit previous isn't it? Nothing has been arranged about passports and id yet. I doubt they'll get away with refusing id today that was legally accepted according to EU rule yesterday. Spain are still part of the EU. They'd be a bit silly changing the rules, if they want the rest of the EU to be sympathetic to them.
> 
> Has she managed to get home yet? From the article I linked, it looks as though it'll be quicker for those with a passport anyway, if the automatic readers can't recognise Gib ids. Maybe she tried one of the automated readers and it refused her id and she has to be manually passed?


No. Since today Spain decided not to accept any IDs from Gibraltar.
Gibraltarians who were on their way from Spain home turned back and forced to stay in Spain.
Border queues right now building to two hours


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> No. Since today Spain decided not to accept any IDs from Gibraltar.


Does that include passports? Not sure what Gibraltans have as ID cards, Driving licences, post, bank or tax cards are not accepted as valid travel documents or proof of identity according to the EU. As mentioned in other thread, German ID card is normally accepted. Not sure what ID for EU/outside schengen is legally. I know nothing I have other than passport would be accepted.

Not excusing Spain's bullying but are they getting away with it by applying the letter, rather than the spirit of regulations?

Once again, public at mercy of politicians trying to prove something.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

I thought with the UK and Gibraltar being outside of the Schegen Zone we had to carry passports to enter or leave an EU Schegen Zone country and once in the EU continent we were free to go where we want without checks?

I know it feels like Spain is flexing it's muscles but these are the rules for a country outside the EU's Schegen Zone including Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, England, Scotland and Wales. Was there a different arrangement recently with Gibraltar?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Does that include passports? Not sure what Gibraltans have as ID cards, Driving licences, post, bank or tax cards are not accepted as valid travel documents or proof of identity according to the EU. As mentioned in other thread, German ID card is normally accepted. Not sure what ID for EU/outside schengen is legally. I know nothing I have other than passport would be accepted.
> 
> Not excusing Spain's bullying but are they getting away with it by applying the letter, rather than the spirit of regulations?
> 
> Once again, public at mercy of politicians trying to prove something.


Till today our ID or any EU ID were accepted. Other IDs are acceptable still. Spanish can use ID both ways in and out. Only Gibraltar ID is not recognised as valid. Apparently like in times of Franco they recognise it as Spanish territory, so our documents are not valid.

With EU...and Manfred Weber's blessing I suppose?

Seems like we have to cancel our MayDay trip to Spanish courtside.
Too dangerous now 
Pity,kids were so excited to go to the mountains and the lakes...
Poor Scrip.
Kids have tournament on Sunday. Wonder if it will go ahead?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> I thought with the UK and Gibraltar being outside of the Schegen Zone we had to carry passports to enter or leave an EU country and once in the EU we were free to go where we want without checks?
> 
> I know it feels like Spain is flexing it's muscles but these are the rules for a country outside the EU's Schegen Zone including Northern Ireland, Gibraltar and the rest of the UK.


They were happy with EU IDs till now?
Ee are still in EU?
Suddenly not happy?
Problem with those who went out using ID and cannot go back.
They did not announce it.
People took IDs as for IVA tax return you needed it, not passport.

A year ago Spain demanded we got new type of ID. We did. Now out of the blue they do not accept it?


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

Hopefully the UK will keep Gibraltar and sorts this out with Spain? I can't see why Gibraltar can't stay part of the UK.


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## stockwellcat. (Jun 5, 2015)

cheekyscrip said:


> They were happy with EU IDs till now?
> Ee are still in EU?
> Suddenly not happy?
> Problem with those who went out using ID and cannot go back.
> ...


I am sorry to read this.


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

If that's true it's Spain being bloody minded without a doubt. Gibraltar ID cards have been acceptable for years now, so if they were going to make a change there should have been a couple of years notice. Not forgetting the Eu have had to intervene before when Spain decided to play silly sods. They'll have to dig out their passports. Maybe we should play silly sods too and stop the Spanish and eu id being acceptable. No wonder we voted brexit.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Till today our ID or any EU ID were accepted.


Sorry cheeky ID cards are something I've never come across other than in Germany so had to look it up. Not aware other countries had them as most of the UK does not. Just been looking though and:






shows what you mean. Hopefully that's the sort you mean. May be of interest to others hearing you mention ID. In some ways I like the idea, it's far easier to carry than a passport.

No idea about how "legal" it is to stop you from using them. I doubt it is, even "outside Schengen" considering by wife can use hers to get through the UK controls. What a mess and it must be affecting everyone there in some way. Here's hoping diplomatic pressure from all sides is brought on spain to stop bullying.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

stockwellcat said:


> Hopefully the UK will keep Gibraltar and sorts this out with Spain? I can't see why Gibraltar can't stay part of the UK.


We should have the same status as Channel Islands. France does not claim them?

If Spain wants Gibraltar back ..then they traded it for Minorca and Florida.
Trade back?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Sorry cheeky ID cards are something I've never come across other than in Germany so had to look it up. Not aware other countries had them as most of the UK does not. Just been looking though and:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually we have now new fancy ones that can go through readers etc...we changed to them at the request from Spain. Who installed readers...then had no idea how to use them!!! Never did.

Oh well...we are really used to it.
You see, if not stupid politics of Franco and post frankists there would be no problem at all.
After Wellington and Salamanca there were over hundred years of friendship and open frontier.
People mixed happily and if thus continued after Franco...
Till Jack Straw put his fingers in..and Zapatero...and it went downhill...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Elles said:


> http://chronicle.gi/2017/01/schengen-changes-will-bring-tighter-border-controls/
> 
> But while the so-called Automated Border Control gates are able to read modern British passports, they cannot yet retrieve data from ID cards issued in Gibraltar.


What if they could use the excuse they do not have access to the relevant database storing the ID information? Simply a guess as to what they may try for reasoning, not that it is acceptable.



cheekyscrip said:


> Oh well...we are really used to it.


OH is as well. Ideal for all those niggly places where they might need identification. Picking up parcel from postoffice for example. Not so easy in Germany when you don't have one and you have to be German to get one.

Hope it's sorted quickly.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> What if they could use the excuse they do not have access to the relevant database storing the ID information? Simply a guess as to what they may try for reasoning, not that it is acceptable.
> 
> OH is as well. Ideal for all those niggly places where they might need identification. Picking up parcel from postoffice for example. Not so easy in Germany when you don't have one and you have to be German to get one.
> 
> Hope it's sorted quickly.


Here everyone knows everyone ...so ID is only good for the bus, if they bothered...
I was married by neighbour two floors up...know most customs and parcel office, tax office, passport office...even the grave digger.
Police, teachers, priests...
It is so small..


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Here everyone knows everyone ....


Do you know Paul and Kelly?


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Here everyone knows everyone ...so ID is only good for the bus, if they bothered...
> I was married by neighbour two floors up...know most customs and parcel office, tax office, passport office...
> Police, teachers, priests...
> It is so small..


Ah but it's the red tape.. you know they need to put your id number into the system. Wait you don't have that sort of id :O


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Ah but it's the red tape.. you know they need to put your id number into the system. Wait you don't have that sort of id :O


Red tape? This is one of the reasons we gave up on living in Spain and commuting to Gibraltar...
Unbelievable amount of incompetence, delays ... Breaks , days off ...arrogance ...usually used to cover ignorance...unless you know " the right people"...or...

Non government organisations are much better.

I had my house searched by Guardia Civiles!!! 
Very serious...till they found camera Atletico Madrid. 
Then as they were fans they abandoned all searches and we had good natter about football. 

To be honest we lived in the zone then associated with drug smuggling.
Our landlord later on got arrested.

I lived happily among gitanos and if not the border problems and red tape ...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

On the North Face of the Rock...

Today Spanish policeman was filmed running along the frontier with gun in his hand pointing it at the crossing...
Video went viral...

Fun and games....


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

At last, a sensible suggestion! Sounds like a good one to me:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...overeignty-of-gibraltar-with-spain-peter-hain

A compromise sounds like the best solution and of course keeps Gibraltar's access within the EU.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

Disagree KittenKong. By agreeing co-sovereignty you are effectively saying Spain is right with their demands. You are also setting a precedent that bullying tactics can succeed. It may be a simple flag for a while, then it will be something else, Spanish police in Gibraltar for example, then another thing and slowly british sovereignty will be chipped away.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> Disagree KittenKong. By agreeing co-sovereignty you are effectively saying Spain is right with their demands. You are also setting a precedent that bullying tactics can succeed. It may be a simple flag for a while, then it will be something else, Spanish police in Gibraltar for example, then another thing and slowly british sovereignty will be chipped away.


Totally agree!


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

Goblin said:


> Disagree KittenKong. By agreeing co-sovereignty you are effectively saying Spain is right with their demands. You are also setting a precedent that bullying tactics can succeed. It may be a simple flag for a while, then it will be something else, Spanish police in Gibraltar for example, then another thing and slowly british sovereignty will be chipped away.


Yup.

Plus - and this is the really important bit - _it's not what the people who live there want_.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Disagree KittenKong. By agreeing co-sovereignty you are effectively saying Spain is right with their demands. You are also setting a precedent that bullying tactics can succeed. It may be a simple flag for a while, then it will be something else, Spanish police in Gibraltar for example, then another thing and slowly british sovereignty will be chipped away.


I do not in any way condone the behaviour of the Spanish authorities. I also don't condone the Falklands like comparisons and threats from the UK end either.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Just think what a Falklands like war would do for May and her government, a perfect way to hide bad Brexit news from the masses.

My argument is they should be working towards a compromise to solve the long running dispute.

This worked for 20 years in Northern Ireland. You could argue about bullying tactics from the IRA and loyalist equivalents at the time of the troubles, but by getting together to work towards a peaceful solution by COMPROMISE this in the main was achieved.

It is wrong to automatically dismiss the Spanish in this manner in much the same way it is wrong for them to dismiss the English. You know yourself what influence the media have over people.

Still, my faith in human nature is at an all time low at the moment.....


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## Jesthar (May 16, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> I do not in any way condone the behaviour of the Spanish authorities. I also don't condone the Falklands like comparisons and threats from the UK end either.
> 
> Two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> ...


The Gibraltar dispute is nothing like the Irish troubles, though. Most of Spain couldn't give two hoots about who Gibraltar belongs to, and those who do don't care about compromise.

Remember, Gibraltar was traded to us, we never invaded it, oppressed their culture and religion etc. as we did in Ireland. The situations are about as incomparable as you can get.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> This worked for 20 years in Northern Ireland. You could argue about bullying tactics from the IRA and loyalist equivalents at the time of the troubles, but by getting together to work towards a peaceful solution by COMPROMISE this in the main was achieved.


Northern Ireland is a totally different situation, one where (okay don't know accurate figure) half the country wanted to join Ireland, half didn't. Northen Ireland wasn't ceded to the UK, it was taken.

Totally agree with the UK media's misrepresentation of the current Gibraltan situation.don't know how Spain's media is representing it.

Do think media is using it as a distraction, May's plans for negotiations has taken a major hit even at this early stage and this is diverting attention away from the fact.

If you are in the right and the other person is wrong, why compromise? Doesn't that mean you encourage those who know they have nothing, to claim regardless? Where do you stop compromising... when you have nothing left?

What would be far better is to actually settle the issue in an international court like the International Court of Justice. That would then make the world recognise the position rather than it simply be Spain vs the UK. The same goes for the Falklands although my understanding is that the issue there could actually go either way and isn't black and white.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> Yup.
> 
> Plus - and this is the really important bit - _it's not what the people who live there want_.


I've been saying this all along. If they want to be "British" they MUST comply with May's no compromise hard Brexit with freedom of movement, customs and free market access withdrawn. They should not expect any help or support from the EU.

Their decision.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Jesthar said:


> The Gibraltar dispute is nothing like the Irish troubles, though. Most of Spain couldn't give two hoots about who Gibraltar belongs to, and those who do don't care about compromise.
> 
> Remember, Gibraltar was traded to us, we never invaded it, oppressed their culture and religion etc. as we did in Ireland. The situations are about as incomparable as you can get.





Goblin said:


> Northern Ireland is a totally different situation, one where (okay don't know accurate figure) half the country wanted to join Ireland, half didn't. Northen Ireland wasn't ceded to the UK, it was taken.
> 
> Totally agree with the UK media's misrepresentation of the current Gibraltan situation.don't know how Spain's media is representing it.
> 
> ...


Yes indeed, I should have said, "Similar to NI", certainly wasn't my intention to compare both as the same.

Seeing the troubles they went through working towards a peace process was something of a miracle.

If it can happen once, it can happen again. Something the world over could learn from.

Threats from one, aggression from the other does nothing but fuel this further into further aggression then war...

I agree with Goblin's comments about the International Court of Justice, certainly would be a good step in the right direction.

I repeat, I do not condone the actions of the Spanish in this situation. Retaliating with threats of war only fuels their activities, not lessen it and vice versa.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

KittenKong said:


> I've been saying this all along. If they want to be "British" they MUST comply with May's no compromise hard Brexit with freedom of movement, customs and free market access. They should not expect any help or support from the EU.


This is where it gets difficult. It seems to the Gibraltans that the EU is abandoning them, for good reason even as I disagree from a logical stand point. They voted to stay in the EU. Then again they voted to stay british. Unfortunately they are mutually exclusive due to brexit. Being part of the UK means that the UK is responsible for them, not the EU.

The veto is issue (which I've noticed is not really discussed) is a more complex issue. I can understand the desire from spain to have a primary say in the border arrangement. Even more important in my opinion is the NI/Ireland border and the impact on the peace accord. I don't expect polish MEP's to understand the complexities of the issues there. However the border with spain and gibralter, due to schengen isn't exclusively a spanish border. It's access to the rest of the schengen area so why should spain be able to dictate terms. In reality it probably cannot. Even with a veto I would expect negotiations within the EU to come up with an acceptable arrangement. That is where the compromise comes into play, not on the issue of sovereignty.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Goblin said:


> This is where it gets difficult. It seems to the Gibraltans that the EU is abandoning them, for good reason even as I disagree from a logical stand point. They voted to stay in the EU. Then again they voted to stay british. Unfortunately they are mutually exclusive due to brexit. Being part of the UK means that the UK is responsible for them, not the EU.
> 
> The veto is issue (which I've noticed is not really discussed) is a more complex issue. I can understand the desire from spain to have a primary say in the border arrangement. Even more important in my opinion is the NI/Ireland border and the impact on the peace accord. I don't expect polish MEP's to understand the complexities of the issues there. However the border with spain and gibralter, due to schengen isn't exclusively a spanish border. It's access to the rest of the schengen area so why should spain be able to dictate terms. In reality it probably cannot. Even with a veto I would expect negotiations within the EU to come up with an acceptable arrangement. That is where the compromise comes into play, not on the issue of sovereignty.


Complications indeed. It could be argued Gibraltarians' have abandoned the EU in their preference to Theresa May and her hard Brexit proposals.

Should this be correct why the hell should the EU get involved in "British" matters now they're no longer going to be members? One of the arguments used in the leave campaign actually!

It's also very hypocritical of a certain Remain, or former remain supporter, I won't mention names, to criticise Brexiteers for wanting to fly the flag when they want to do this themselves!


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> I've been saying this all along. If they want to be "British" they MUST comply with May's no compromise hard Brexit with freedom of movement, customs and free market access withdrawn. They should not expect any help or support from the EU.
> 
> Their decision.


Spain have always made the border crossing difficult for Gibraltar and even today, when we are still in the EU, Spain is making it difficult for people to go about there daily routine (Both Spanish and Gibraltars) so why I accept what your saying about not expecting help or support from the EU once we leave (Though I would argue that it does nothing to improve relationships..), the EU should be involved at this stage, That is what annoying the locals like @cheekyscrip.

If France as an example did the same border antics with Italy, or Germany, etc there would uproar.


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

stuaz said:


> Spain have always made the border crossing difficult for Gibraltar and even today, when we are still in the EU, Spain is making it difficult for people to go about there daily routine (Both Spanish and Gibraltars) so why I accept what your saying about not expecting help or support from the EU once we leave (Though I would argue that it does nothing to improve relationships..), the EU should be involved at this stage, That is what annoying the locals like @cheekyscrip.
> 
> If France as an example did the same border antics with Italy, or Germany, etc there would uproar.


Indeed, but didn't the EU intervene in keeping the border open? It's rather ironic Spain have tried, or are closing the border when May's hard Brexit will do this anyway.

A no win situation all round, regardless by the sounds of it.

Yes, I agree too it must appear bad for the EU no longer being involved. The argument, "We haven't left yet" no longer applies as triggering Article 50 shows the irreversible no going back on leaving.

Something the entire UK will have to get used to I'm afraid.

Besides, even if it did they'll have to be prepared for this anyway in 2019.

Looking at early posts in the EU Ref thread they were several mentions of words to the effect of, "I'm voting Leave as I'm sick of Brussels dictating to us".

Now they get criticised for not doing so.

Cannot win......


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

KittenKong said:


> Indeed, but didn't the EU intervene in keeping the border open? It's rather ironic Spain have tried, or are closing the border when May's hard Brexit will do this anyway.
> 
> A no win situation all round, regardless by the sounds of it.
> 
> ...


Sick of Brussels dictating to us? They should make sure there own rules are adhered to. All part of belonging to the "club".


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Sick of Brussels dictating to us? They should make sure there own rules are adhered to. All part of belonging to the "club".


You fail to recognise that the EU sent inspectors to check on the border controls. Despite the issues it was found that Spain did not break any rules. Gibraltar is outside the Schengen area which is the core problem.

I would be interested to know what EU rules have been broken. Ships in gibraltan waters may well be one but I expect EU rules do not cover it.


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> You fail to recognise that the EU sent inspectors to check on the border controls. Despite the issues it was found that Spain did not break any rules. Gibraltar is outside the Schengen area which is the core problem.
> 
> I would be interested to know what EU rules have been broken. Ships in gibraltan waters may well be one but I expect EU rules do not cover it.


Oh you mean the inspections they carry out and the border is "magically" running smoothly and there are no delays... funny that happens on days they visit


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

stuaz said:


> Oh you mean the inspections they carry out and the border is "magically" running smoothly and there are no delays... funny that happens on days they visit


So tell me, what EU rules have Spain broken? Certainly entry into the Schengen area is required by EU law to have customs and passport checks. How are the EU supposed to act without evidence that rules have been broken?

That's the crux. As frustrating as it is, Spain is following the letter of the rules, even if not the spirit. Do you know if the UK had pushed for changes in those regulations?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

KittenKong said:


> I do not in any way condone the behaviour of the Spanish authorities. I also don't condone the Falklands like comparisons and threats from the UK end either.
> 
> Two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> ...


Spain has no claim to Gibraltar more than to Florida.
Just that since times of Franco decided they want it back?

Before Franco they were happy with British Gibraltar and grateful for getting rid of Napoleon.

Why then Britain did not agree on shared sovereignty with Germany in 1941?

Germans wanted Britain very badly...
Had no claim, but just wanted it.

Would you share your home and garden with a neighbour just because they want it?

It is no less British than Channel Islands.

Would you give them to France just because French might want it?
Is Spain giving Ceuta and Melilla back to Morocco, who want them back?

It is convenient to you because Guardia Civiles will not be on your doorstep I understand?
It just affects other British people, but not you directly, so it is fine and dandy.

It is us who would be bullied.
Hein has no idea about the life here, another idiot politician.

Funny, if say Russians wanted the town you live in?
Just " to share".

Have you seen the town next door?

Why so many live off smuggling?
Why gov and EU money sort of ends always in local politicians' pockets and fat accounts in Cayman?

Come here, live for few years and then we will be talking...

Can we have shared use of your house when you give my home to Spain?


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## stuaz (Sep 22, 2012)

Goblin said:


> So tell me, what EU rules have Spain broken? Certainly entry into the Schengen area is required by EU law to have customs and passport checks. How are the EU supposed to act without evidence that rules have been broken?
> 
> That's the crux. As frustrating as it is, Spain is following the letter of the rules, even if not the spirit. Do you know if the UK had pushed for changes in those regulations?


Yeah the UK has pushed for changes. The EU did an inspection a few years ago and instructed changes to be made to the border, the UK made the changes required but Spain did not.

Spain may be following some of the rules but they greatly increase the thoroughness of the checks basically equating to harassment and intimidation of Gibraltar locals. Suppose it does divert peoples attention away from the failures elsewhere in the Spanish government for a couple of hours anyway..

France doesn't treat its border with the UK with the same level of issues (Aside from when the French are striking! )


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> You fail to recognise that the EU sent inspectors to check on the border controls. Despite the issues it was found that Spain did not break any rules. Gibraltar is outside the Schengen area which is the core problem.
> 
> I would be interested to know what EU rules have been broken. Ships in gibraltan waters may well be one but I expect EU rules do not cover it.


Frontier problem was and is filmed and Spain was admonished for making queues on demand. From Madrid.
Imagine car being dismantled, but not taking aside, so everyone has to wait...letting through four cars per hour?

This is how it is made. Perfectly possible to have few lanes plus space aside for through checks"?
You do not need five minutes for every passport ?
Anyone for further questioning can be taken aside?

They always bring outside people for queues, not the local.custom or police.
Change them often, else they get friendly...


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

When Spain wanted to be in NATO was happy to forgo any claims.

But Jack Straw and idiot Hein suddenly had a brainwave.
How easy is to dispose of someone's land, home and livehood?
Without asking them first?
We have constitution. 

Nothing about us without us.

If anyone wants to share their property with whoever, I will not decide for them.

This is where May and EU failed simple rules of democracy.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

@stuaz and @cheekyscrip The problem as far as the EU is concerned is that spain is not breaking any EU law. Whilst they can bring unofficial pressure they can not accuse spain of breaking the rules as, as far as I can see, they are not.

Believe me, I sympathise. The UK government is responsible for the realationship between Spain and GIbraltar, not the EU. For the EU to get personally involved against Spain would be against spain's sovereignty.. unless the EU rules change..


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> @stuaz and @cheekyscrip The problem as far as the EU is concerned is that spain is not breaking any EU law. Whilst they can bring unofficial pressure they can not accuse spain of breaking the rules as, as far as I can see, they are not.
> 
> Believe me, I sympathise. The UK government is responsible for the realationship between Spain and GIbraltar, not the EU. For the EU to get personally involved against Spain would be against spain's sovereignty.. unless the EU rules change..


Why did EU give veto to Spain?

We are British. Since 1713 Thu territory was ceded to Britain. Traded for another territory.
End of.

Our land. Our community.

It is disgusting to haggle over it.

For tapas?.

We have nothing against Spanish as you have nothing against German or French etc..
Funniest thing: The worst affected are frontier workers, alas mostly Spanish!!!
So Spain hits their own just to get to us.
How lovely is that?
Would you really want to be ruled by such?

Tell that for Spanish people Gibraltar is just propaganda, they know how their government is using it.

Think @KittenKong you more happy to trade us than most Spaniards I know.
Maybe they know something you do not?
Holidays in nice spot are not enough to fully realise local life and local problems.
This is where Jack Straw went so wrong.
@Goblin you realise that it is the constant bullying, the gun brandishing police that really puts us off from any deals with them?

If the attitude was different?

If they come here there would be enough morons who would be happy to break and destroy anything British and everything else for good measure. 
Neofrankist hooligans or just plain vandals.

Locals will be intimidated and pushed out.
Like gitanos during Franco...

We will be most targeted and hated minority with no protection at all.
Many Spanish realise that and actually feel ashamed by the treatment we get from Spanish authorities.


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Goblin said:


> @stuaz and @cheekyscrip The problem as far as the EU is concerned is that spain is not breaking any EU law. Whilst they can bring unofficial pressure they can not accuse spain of breaking the rules as, as far as I can see, they are not.
> 
> Believe me, I sympathise. The UK government is responsible for the realationship between Spain and GIbraltar, not the EU. For the EU to get personally involved against Spain would be against spain's sovereignty.. unless the EU rules change..


Haven't the EU involved themselves by giving Spain a veto?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

DoodlesRule said:


> Haven't the EU involved themselves by giving Spain a veto?


They did not have to. 
As Manfred Weber said it was revenge.

Revenge knowing we actually did not vote for Brexit and we cannot trust Spain.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Imagine this done by local authorities to our cats:
View attachment 305612








It was done few miles from Gibraltar , we would be in that county.
Imagine that is legal:









Believe me, if we are rather willing to go down with Brexit, must be a good reason.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2017)

cheekyscrip said:


> Revenge knowing we actually did not vote for Brexit and we cannot trust Spain.


Who's getting revenge, the EU? For not voting for Brexit? 
I'm confused...


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

From the Guardian website:

•In the coverage of the reference to Gibraltar in the EU guidelines on negotiating the UK exit I am surprised that nobody has pointed out that this is illegal under the EU treaties. Article 50 requires a "qualified majority" of EU states to approve any leaving agreement. There is absolutely no provision to give any individual state special rights over any aspect of the agreement.

If the EU cannot be trusted to abide by its own treaties then there is really no point in negotiating with it. The suggestion that Gibraltar should be treated differently to the rest of the UK is illegal and dishonourable. We should refuse to negotiate any financial settlement with the EU unless it agrees to abide by article 50 and remove the discrimination against Gibraltar in the negotiation guidelines.
*Neil Addison (Barrister)*
_New Bailey Chambers, Liverpool_


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> Why did EU give veto to Spain?


As the border between spain directly affects them. Hope Ireland also gets a veto. How would the UK feel if Romania made the decision we had to do specific things at the UK border and effectively told us what to do? Wasn't one of the main complaints of those leaving that Brussels tells us what to do leaving us powerless to make our own decisions? Here we are and "you" are complaining when they give a country directly affected the right to ensure that doesn't happen.

By you I mean people in general cheekyscrip. I realise you were against leaving.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> From the Guardian website:
> 
> •In the coverage of the reference to Gibraltar in the EU guidelines on negotiating the UK exit I am surprised that nobody has pointed out that this is illegal under the EU treaties. Article 50 requires a "qualified majority" of EU states to approve any leaving agreement. There is absolutely no provision to give any individual state special rights over any aspect of the agreement.


A qualified majority will be required to approve any leaving agreement. There is no provision to prevent any individual state being granted special rights over any aspect of the agreement.

Barrister in? EU law perhaps... Well his firm deals with Civil Law, Criminal Law, and Family Law, Specialist legal advice in Immigration Law, Employment and Property Litigation.

Do not see EU law anywhere in that list.

One possible aspect to follow but would need to be settled by legal experts in the relevant field.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

ouesi said:


> Who's getting revenge, the EU? For not voting for Brexit?
> I'm confused...


We did not vote for Brexit. Yet German MEP Manfred Weber admitted veto was given to Spain as a revenge for Brexit.
Which we voted against 96%.
Yes. Absolute absurd situation.
Poison neighbours' cat, because they annoy you.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> As the border between spain directly affects them. Hope Ireland also gets a veto. How would the UK feel if Romania made the decision we had to do specific things at the UK border and effectively told us what to do? Wasn't one of the main complaints of those leaving that Brussels tells us what to do leaving us powerless to make our own decisions? Here we are and "you" are complaining when they give a country directly affected the right to ensure that doesn't happen.
> 
> By you I mean people in general cheekyscrip. I realise you were against leaving.


How the border affects Spain? They do not have to cross it? Unless they want to and they do it out of their free will?
Gibraltar never made any problems for them to come as much as they please? Work here? Settle here if wanted?
Gibraltar provides work for 10k Spaniards and trade with Gibraltar keeps Campo de Gibraltar afloat.
Give Gibraltar to Spain and all wine gone.
Locals do not want that at all.
Without our help even their cat and dog shelters will not survive a year.
Their other charities too.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> We did not vote for Brexit. Yet German MEP Manfred Weber admitted veto was given to Spain as a revenge for Brexit.


Yep and Farage has said that nobody in the EU other than him have done a day's work. Is that the truth?

Did he actually say it? http://www.eppgroup.eu/news/Our-red-lines-on-Brexit

It doesn't really matter that you voted by 96%. Apparantly less than 40% of the electorate is sufficient for the UK to follow a destructive course without regard to the other 60+%


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## KittenKong (Oct 30, 2015)

Goblin said:


> Wasn't one of the main complaints of those leaving that Brussels tells us what to do leaving us powerless to make our own decisions? Here we are and "you" are complaining when they give a country directly affected the right to ensure that doesn't happen..


Exactly.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

cheekyscrip said:


> How the border affects Spain? They do not have to cross it? Unless they want to and they do it out of their free will?
> Gibraltar never made any problems for them to come as much as they please? Work here? Settle here if wanted?


Well smuggling is an obvious one. What happens when safety standards are different, tarriffs can be avoided by smuggling etc etc. Now in an ideal world the benefits to both countries should be obvious. We don't live in an ideal world.


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## Colliebarmy (Sep 27, 2012)

cheekyscrip said:


> We did not vote for Brexit. .


No, Gib wanted Europe... lol, happy days


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## DoodlesRule (Jul 7, 2011)

Goblin said:


> A qualified majority will be required to approve any leaving agreement. There is no provision to prevent any individual state being granted special rights over any aspect of the agreement.
> 
> Barrister in? EU law perhaps... Well his firm deals with Civil Law, Criminal Law, and Family Law, Specialist legal advice in Immigration Law, Employment and Property Litigation.
> 
> ...


I do apologise I forgot that your knowledge & point of view is superior to everyone!!


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## Dr Pepper (Jan 17, 2017)

Colliebarmy said:


> No, Gib wanted Europe... lol, happy days


You have to love the irony, be careful what you wish for and all that.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Well smuggling is an obvious one. What happens when safety standards are different, tarriffs can be avoided by smuggling etc etc. Now in an ideal world the benefits to both countries should be obvious. We don't live in an ideal world.


Most drug smuggling goes through Atunara...in plain view. Tiny port few km from us. 
Matuteros bring income to Spain.

Without us this zone will have only smuggling to support themselves.

Our beaches are small and under constant vigil, we have the Navy base too, so imagine the security.

But few km down...
Lived there. Was invited to local sardinadas, llanitos or not.
Locals had nothing against us at all.

We used to help to pull fishing boats out..
But no one there could live off fishing alone...except few old men...


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

DoodlesRule said:


> I do apologise I forgot that your knowledge & point of view is superior to everyone!!


You make me laugh.. reasoned arguments suddenly equates to knowing everything. Show how I am wrong instead. Maybe you should also read that final sentence.



cheekyscrip said:


> Most drug smuggling goes through Atunara...in plain view


Wasn't talking about drug smuggling though. Can you imagine a cadbury's chocolate smuggling cartel  Ok, extreme silly example but without free movement of goods, most things could be a target for being smuggled if additional costs are involved in going through the border officially.


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> Wasn't talking about drug smuggling though. Can you imagine a cadbury's chocolate smuggling cartel  Ok, extreme silly example but without free movement of goods, most things could be a target for being smuggled if additional costs are involved in going through the border officially.


Then I should have got a car with bigger boot

That is fabulous. Will smuggle Nestle from Gib to Spain and turron on the way back. Yay.


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## Goblin (Jun 21, 2011)

HP sauce, Heinz salad creme, Cadbury's, Terry's chocolate orange, Rowtrees Fruit pastelles, Polos, Salt and Vinegar crisps.. Ok, I'm a UK immigrant and there are some things you simply miss unless you can find a "british store". Simply used cadbury's as an example. Remember the booze/cigarette run, dover to france in vans, everything for "personal use"?


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## cheekyscrip (Feb 8, 2010)

Goblin said:


> HP sauce, Heinz salad creme, Cadbury's, Terry's chocolate orange, Rowtrees Fruit pastelles, Polos, Salt and Vinegar crisps.. Ok, I'm a UK immigrant and there are some things you simply miss unless you can find a "british store". Simply used cadbury's as an example. Remember the booze/cigarette run, dover to france in vans, everything for "personal use"?


We have Morrisons, also some Waitrose and M&S....
Another good reason to stay British.

We also have pubs with ales. Guinness. London Pride. 
Many pubs. Fish and Chips.

English breakfast.

Boys from the Navy.

Even with frontier closed we are ok..


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## Elles (Aug 15, 2011)

How do the Spanish who work in Gib feel? Aren't they worried that if Britain restricts workers from Europe they'll lose their jobs? Do you think there'll be no travel between Britain and Europe? I wonder how it will work if we want to holiday in Andorra? Will brits now need a visa? We just don't know how it will work out yet. I still don't think there will be the restrictions that the extremists want, with Johnny Foreigner never allowed to darken these shores again, or vice-versa. 

I don't see there's a problem with using passports instead of id. I do think there should have been information well in advance. The border between Gibraltar and Spain has often been a problem. It will now become a border between Gibraltar and the EU and is likely to have to follow the same rules we all do. Nothing to stop the Eu and Britain giving special dispensations to whoever they want though, so long as they all agree on it. They write the rules.

I don't know what can be done if the Spanish authorities deliberately cause chaos and long delays if they act within the letter of the law though. 

I vaguely remember something about some stench and pollution, I thought it was on the Spanish side though and the Spanish residents were complaining as loudly as gib. Shows how much notice I paid. 

Cigarettes were cheaper in gib? iirc you were allowed 200? I though smuggling was mainly cigs and booze, same as it was France - UK.? Or was that just when sterling was so much stronger than the euro. I think a lot of people lost a lot of money a few years back if they were being paid in sterling and it wasn't worth so much, but their mortgages were in euro. 

Hopefully it'll settle down soon and people will know where they stand.


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