# You'll hate me after this post



## bulickeil (Jul 15, 2013)

I am not a vegetarian. Actually, sorry but I still feel "OK" when I put meat inside my mouth.
Because this week I spend time studying about animal, I also spend time visiting the website of PETA. After the show, I must say that PETA needs to change the way it works.

All the first things I see is the ORDERS, the MUST-DO things they WANT me to do RIGHT NOW. Indigestible.
Boom! And please become vegans like us.

The more stupid thing I find on the web is the "FUR? I'D RATHER GO NAKED" of the organization. What is the main purpose? There are nothing relates!!!
The facts are true that animals need their rights, need their respect without protesting (they can't talk like humans you know), but the efforts seem not cool at any alls
Thanks PETA, I love animal, but not you now


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## JANICE199 (Feb 1, 2008)

*I agree 100% that animals need a voice. I also believe to kill an animal just for a " pretty " fur coat is totally evil.
*


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I don't understand why you think anyone would hate you after this post, I certainly don't, I agree with what you wrote.

I love animals and I do eat meat (not much as I don't really like the taste of most meats) but I do eat meat, just a small amount and I enjoy eating fish, even though I have fish as a pet, I love eating fish and I'm not going to stop anytime soon.

I fully agree that animals need a voice and I feel that they need our support to be protected from those horrible people out there who:
Kill animals JUST for fur, teeth, ivory etc, basically to kill for anything else except to eat.


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## jaycee05 (Sep 24, 2012)

Obviously the " FUR? I WOULD RATHER GO NAKED" is referring to animals killed just for their fur and to the celebs who flaunt it
Also for the way they are killed,did you see that? anal electrocution, skinned alive? do you agree with that, or dogs and cats boiled alive to eat
Bloody barbaric


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## spotty cats (Jul 24, 2012)

PETA are a bunch of AR nutbags who do more harm than good. If they had their way none of us would own pets at all. Animals need a voice, they don't need PETA or their followers.

I'm a vegetarian but don't care about what others eat, everyone can make their own choices.
My cats are also raw fed


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## Sandysmum (Sep 18, 2010)

Have any of you seen the Penn and Teller show about PETA. Boy do they lay into them in a big way! I lost any respect I had for PETA after watching that programme!


I've tried to put a link up to the programme, but it didn't work


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## sskmick (Feb 4, 2008)

imo If an animal is humanely killed and all the animal is used ie meat, fur etc then I don't have a problem with that. The humane bit is a grey area I know and for that reason I couldn't work in an abatoir.

I don't believe in slaughtering animals for sport or mutilating them for soup etc..

If numbers need to be decreased this should be done humanely and not with clubs. If culling cannot be humanely done then it shouldn't be done at all. People scream out but they are destroying our... ruining our... and humans?

No one will hate you, I own six pets a dog, cats and rabbits. I eat meat, however I haven't bought rabbit meat for over five years, I draw a line at that now having rabbits as pets.


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

I will never, ever support PETA. 

It is well known that they fake and stage horrific acts of cruelty and video it to make a point - there is a very famous, graphic video of an animal being skinned alive for it's fur which was proven to have been staged - the skinner was paid by PETA to do so and the pelt would have been worthless afterwards yet PETA claims that animals are routinely skinned alive. They prey on compassionate and easily influenced people and I am yet to hear a good word about them! 
To support PETA is to support animal cruelty. They are extremist, libelous, slanderous hypocrites.

I also believe that if animals are treated humanely at every stage of the production chain then there is nothing wrong with eating meat.
I was vegetarian for 5 years but struggled to maintain a healthy weight so I now eat meat again; it is possible to love animals and care about their welfare while being a meat eater!


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi, well I feel a bit bad as this is my first post on here but this thread seems to be very hypocritical.

@ Bulickeil Yes PETA are very much DO THIS, DON'T DO THAT etc. etc. which also annoys me greatly as it antagonises a lot of people and they lose would be followers but they also do a lot of good and put certain animal cruelty issues in the spotlight. Who else at the moment is fighting the inhumane production of Pate de Fois Gras and trying to get Fortnum and Mason to stop selling it? Now and again I give them a tenner but I also give to lots of other animal welfare charities too. PETA certainly seem to have plenty of celebrities who support them and fight their corner. Yes, they do some wrong things and have some strange ideas but they also do a lot more than you or I could ever do and make differences where you or I never could. 

@ Animallover26, I personally don't see the difference between killing an animal for fur, ivory etc. and sending one to an early death, mostly while practically still babies, to satisfy someone's taste buds. The person killing a rhino or elephant for it's ivory, or the person killing an animal for it's fur can justify his need for it in the same way that people will justify the need for killing to satisfy their taste buds. For anyone to think it's any different is very blinkered and self centred.
I used to be horrified at the plight of dogs and cats who are cruelly killed and eaten for meat but then realised that it is really no different from eating cows, pigs, sheep and chickens. Just because WE class some animals as meat and others as pets we have no right to criticise other cultures for eating what they want to eat, as much as we despise it. The suffering of a cow or lamb is no different from the suffering of a dog or cat when it comes down to it.

@Jaycee05 Animals in slaughter houses are also sometimes skinned alive and also have their limbs cut off while still alive because they regain consciousness before they are completely bled out or from bad stunning practices. Try and find the video of the little calf who is hanging up by it's hind leg while the slaughterman tries to cut it's front leg off at the knee and the calf keeps struggling to pull it away from the knife. Another video shows the same but with a cow. Chickens are often boiled alive because the rotating blade has missed their throats and they are then dunked in boiling water to loosen their feathers and pigs are also sometimes dunked in the scalding tanks (to remove their bristles) while still alive. So no different from boiling or skinning a cat or dog alive in terms of suffering. Research it and you will find plenty of evidence and might I add NOT from PETA. There is plenty of evidence out there but it is whether people choose to watch it and then make an informed choice or turn a blind eye and let the suffering continue. In the end it's all down to choice and what we are willing to accept.

@sskmick The meat industry is not humane in any way, shape or form from birth to death. Apparently anyone could be eating kosher or halal meat and not know about it. Find that on Youtube and see how humane that is!!!!!! It is much cheaper to kill animals without stunning first so a lot of slaughterhouses who cater for the halal or kosher meat eating community also sell the same meat to supermarkets but this doesn't have to be stated on the label to let consumers know so many consumers unwittingly buy and eat this meat which is horrifically produced. You say you could not work in a slaughterhouse but you are willing to let someone else do the dirty work and you can then bury your head and not have to see the suffering that goes on. I did that for years until I actually decided that my taste buds couldn't justify the suffering of any living being after I finally pulled my head out of the sand and opened my eyes to the suffering and made an informed choice. 


@ Thorne Animals are no longer humanely treated at ANY stage of the production chain. People want cheap meat and it's the animals who pay the price. Have you watched Paul McCartney's ' If slaughterhouses had glass walls' or 'Meet your meat' or any of the many other available videos on Youtube? I think you will be shocked to see how much routine suffering actually goes on and some of it is unbelievable.

I apologise if I sound like I'm having a go at you because I really am not. I just found all the comments in this thread very hypocritical.
Factory farming is the biggest cause of animal cruelty on the planet and most meat these days comes from factory farmed animal . It is the only way to meet the demands for the spiralling out of control human population.
I don't have a problem with people eating meat but I do have a problem with people who are unwilling to see the suffering they cause by eating it AND THEN criticising other forms of cruelty. If they see and are fine with the suffering then that is up to them but at least they have then made an informed choice.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

LynnM said:


> Hi, well I feel a bit bad as this is my first post on here but this thread seems to be very hypocritical.
> 
> @ Bulickeil Yes PETA are very much DO THIS, DON'T DO THAT etc. etc. which also annoys me greatly as it antagonises a lot of people and they lose would be followers but they also do a lot of good and put certain animal cruelty issues in the spotlight. Who else at the moment is fighting the inhumane production of Pate de Fois Gras and trying to get Fortnum and Mason to stop selling it? Now and again I give them a tenner but I also give to lots of other animal welfare charities too. PETA certainly seem to have plenty of celebrities who support them and fight their corner. Yes, they do some wrong things and have some strange ideas but they also do a lot more than you or I could ever do and make differences where you or I never could.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. I believe it is unnecessary to kill/use any animals to be healthy. Its too late for me to get into all the ins and outs, but to me, I dont believe any living, breathing creature should be created, to live a torturous life just to be killed, terrified and in agony so we can have cheap burgers and sausage rolls. I dont agree cows should have to spend their lives in cramped, unnatural conditions so we can have milk. The whole "but I cant live without meat/milk" doesnt wash with me I'm afraid.

In this day and age we have so many cruelty free alternatives that taste identical to meat and milk but we still choose to create life just to snub it out in the most cruelest of ways so we can eat what we want.

PETA go about spreading the message the wrong way and I can see why people hate them. If you youtube Vegan there is a great video called "101 reasons to be Vegan" the guy is straight and to the point. He says what I am trying to say. IMO I think its hypocritical to love one animal and think its okay to kill and eat another. If someone offered us a dog burger, most of us would be disgusted, but if we are offered a beef burger, its okay to eat it. I dont understand why one life is more valued above the other.

I'm not one of those self-righteous vegans who looks down there nose on everyone, I make my mistakes and know it, but I believe there is a more ethical way to live. Just my 2 cents.


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## havoc (Dec 8, 2008)

> PETA are a bunch of AR nutbags who do more harm than good. If they had their way none of us would own pets at all


This is the bit they don't make so public. Their aim is to put an end to all 'owned' animals. That includes farm animals, endangered species in zoo breeding programmes and all pets - everything.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

havoc said:


> This is the bit they don't make so public. Their aim is to put an end to all 'owned' animals. That includes farm animals, endangered species in zoo breeding programmes and all pets - everything.


Yeah I've heard that but it will never happen, people will always have pets. As long as they continue to expose and fight to stop the intolerable suffering in factory farms etc. they're ok by me. 
We need as many organisations as possible to fight the injustices done to all the other innocent creatures who share this planet with us and suffer at the hands of humans.

As for zoos, I'm not sure on that one. I sometimes wonder what the point is of saving and breeding these endangered species if they have to spend their whole lives imprisoned in zoos. That is no life for a wild animal. If they are released into the wild they will only be wiped out by humans and the way we are selfishly taking over the planet as though no other species matters there soon won't be anywhere to release them into anyway .


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## MrRustyRead (Mar 14, 2011)

I think it should be humans are slaves to animals ha, my animals are far from slaves, they are worshipped like gods


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

This...


LynnM said:


> You say *you could not work in a slaughterhouse, but you're willing to let someone else do the dirty work*,
> & you can then [close Ur eyes] & not have to see the suffering that goes on.
> 
> I did that for years, until I... decided that my taste buds couldn't justify the suffering of any living being,
> ...


i agree. 
Slaughter can be more humane, or less humane & more cruel - but it can never be *entirely* humane.
We can only try to make it less stressful, less painful, quick & clean.

i also get really irritated by ppl who say, _"oh, i could never *kill* an animal!"_, while stuffing a McBurger 
or battery-caged eggs & total-confinement bacon into their mouths... STOP PIMPING. :mad5:

If U won't kill an animal, don't EAT any... unless they've died of old age, or disease, or other "natural"
causes - like road-kill.  If U won't kill an animal to eat their meat, then don't have someone else 
reap that karma *for U - since that's precisely what pimps do:* they won't sell their own bodies for sex,
but they'll cheerfully take the profit from someone ELSE's sexual exploitation.

It's precisely the same process: using someone else to do something that U think is disgusting.

I grew up on a farm, & at one point, the nearest vet was a 2-hr drive, one way - if we had a sick animal 
or an injured animal that was dying slowly, our only option was to kill that animal as quickly & cleanly as 
we could.

I've also hunted, fished, & slaughtered animals - altho i've been primarily vegetarian since 1984.
I eat cold-water fish, sustainably taken - & certified-humane, organic eggs, & organic dairy.

I know precisely what slaughter looks like, sounds like, & smells like - done right, or done badly.
ASSEMBLY-LINE slaughter is almost impossible to do humanely; they want speed. Speed makes errors.

Temple Grandin has done more to help reduce the cruelty in slaughter than any other person - 
but she can only design the plants & install the safeguards, after that, it's up to the Mgmt to oversee, 
& workers to implement.

please note that all the birds here are already DEAD - 
chicken dressing plant fabricator (2500 - 3500 bph) - YouTube
see that number? "2500 to 3500 BIRDS PER HOUR" [bph]

Foie gras - 
French Foie Gras Cruelty - Animal Equality Undercover Investigation - YouTube
NOTE the blood on the feeding-pipe @ 1:25, & the worker's remark.
NOTE the livers taking up nearly the entire body-cavity, @ 3:25.
Do those livers look 'normal'?

Home slaughter for an aging egg-layer:
How to slaughter (dress) a chicken - YouTube

The bird is contained by a jug, her jugular is cut, the brain-stem is severed, & she's bled-out.
THEN, when she's definitely dead, she's dunked for plucking. Commercial slaughter is too fast
to worry about such niceties. [Also note the number of egg-yolks - odd, for a bird who's supposedly 
quit laying, but that's the hen-keeper's mistake, not the folks dressing her.]


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2013)

I was bullied at college because aparently you can't like animals and eat meat. 

I HATE PETA I think they encourage bullying and are basicly bullies themselves. Their highly manipulative and prey on young vulnrable people and can cause a lot of destruction.

The world would be a better place without PETA I would love to see them shut down >.>


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

One could argue that all publicity is good publicity. Then again on the other hand there is always the question of dignity and honour, without which 'you' don't amount to very much...

When *love* is your cause 'you' hold the moral high ground and certainly in this instance what greater 'weapon' do you need than *truth*?

I am not in favour of 'stunts', from PETA or anyone. Nor acts of violence or vandalism.
As I said, 'dignity and honour' and besides what would be the point? 'You' cannot instill compassion and mercy in another's heart and soul yourself. No. You can inspire, you can enlighten, you can lead by example, but they and they alone can make the change.

Truth and Love that's all you need.


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## profx (Apr 29, 2011)

As long as an animal is humanely killed and there is a good reason for them to be killed (i.e meat) then I see no problem with it (and I am not a hypocrite either, I would work in a slaughterhouse), we evolved from chimps, who are meat eaters and therefore it is natural for us to eat meat. (although it is also natural not to, as quite a few primates are herbivores). Does that mean all human omnivores are animal haters? No!


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

PETA UK and PETA USA may have made some errors of judgement over the years, I'm guessing through being over-zealous, but this video from PETA Deutschland shows that just simple truth can have the greatest impact. 
No shouting, no swearing, no nudity, no violence, no placards, no grand gestures, just truth..
"Tiere sind keine Lebensmittel" PETA Mahnwache in Berlin - YouTube

And this sweet little boy, in his innocence, reminds us all of a profound truth...
Luiz Antonio - Why He Doesn't Want to Eat Octopus (Translated into English) - YouTube


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

profx said:


> ...* we evolved from chimps, who are meat eaters* & therefore it is natural for us to eat meat.


good Heavens, this is aggravating. What sort of schooling did U have?! 
Whatever eejit said "humans EVOLVED FROM chimps" should be stood in the stocks, & be pelted with rotting veg 
& roadkill for a week or so.

Humans *share* a common ancestor with chimps - also with bonobo, gorilla, & orang.
But humans no more "evolved from chimps" than dogs "evolved from modern-day wolves" - 
in both cases, the wolf or ape shares common ancestors with the dog or human.


profx said:


> ...although it is also natural not to [eat meat], as quite a few primates are herbivores.


in the case of _**** sapiens_, meat is an optional protein-source; we don't really "need" it, 
we can eat it or skip it. We only require about 15% protein in our diets as adults, & can easily obtain that 
by eating complementary proteins: 
- Any whole grain plus legume;
wheat bread & peanut butter; rice & peas; rice & lentils; rice & beans; corn & beans; etc.
- Any whole grain plus dairy;
cereal & milk; WW bread & cheese; granola & yogurt; etc.
- Any whole-grain plus nuts or seeds;
millet bread & sunflower-seed butter; WW-bread & almond butter; granola with hazelnuts; etc.

It's not hard to have a very nourishing diet that's *dairy-free* too; it's not an accident that many foods 
common in traditional diets are complementary proteins for poor folks: corn tortillas & beans in Central America,
wheat chapati & lentils in India, groundnut butter & millet cakes in Africa. U can eat cheap, be well-fed, & skip 
all the drama of _"an animal died for this..."_, & its attendant karma.

Nutrition for Everyone: Basics: Protein | DNPAO | CDC

RECIPES for complementary proteins:
Food nutrition health and wellness news

Or U can eat meat that's raised healthily, slaughtered as humanely as possible, & limit the amount - 
so that U use meat as an accent, not the main course; to add flavor, not to be the primary source of calories.
U can by organic, local beef; free-range poultry; sustainable fish; home-grown rabbit. Join a CSA - help 
to support a local farmer, get food that doesn't have 5,000 miles to travel before it reaches the grocer.

I live in Massachusetts - why in he!! should i buy plums from Chile, raspberries from Mexico, & lettuce 
from Salinas, California?! It's insane. Everything but a few tropical oddities can be grown locally, most of the year;
i buy organic bananas, Fair-Trade shade-grown coffee which doesn't mean cutting down bird habitat to plant 
a sterile coffee-plantation, & organic chocolate that wasn't picked by slave-labor nor was the cacao farmer 
paid a pittance, & the middleman got the whopping big profits.

Eat vegan - or lacto-ovo vegetarian, or piscatarian, or fruitarian, or herbivore, or omnivore.
They all work - they're all safe, healthy, & perfectly normal human diets. Just don't unthinkingly shove 
fuel into one end, & waste out the other, without thinking about what U eat, why, & how to was produced,
transported, raised, what inputs were consumed [fuel for tractors, diesel for trucks, grain for cattle lots, 
fertilizer, herbicides / pesticides / fungicides & other poisons, WATER, soil lost to wind & water erosion, 
native species displaced, ____________ ].
Who grew it? How far away? How long has it spent in a warehouse, on the road, on the high seas, 
to reach U?

Eating should be a conscious act, not an activity we absent-mindedly use to shove 
food-like substances into our individual pie-holes while motoring off from a drive-thru, 
or thoughtlessly gobbling massive hunks of fat-laced wads of beef, pork, chicken, & other 
antibiotic-laced, pesticide-filled, wasteful products of industrial agriculture.

Anyone who chooses to think can easily do better: save money, be healthier, save the soil, 
air, & water - & avoid much of the emotional weight of knowing U've helped raze a forest 
to install a monocrop, or killed an animal cruelly after keeping that animal in abysmal 
conditions... just for "cheap food".

"Cheap food" costs us more than the planet can afford, & kills us all before we should die.
Eventually, "cheap food" will kill the planet, if we don't stop this insanity.

i'll get off my soapbox, now, but for the sake of the planet, please *think* before U buy,
prepare, or eat a meal. We simply can't afford to go on like this; China & India cannot eat the "USA-diet" 
& all of us have a living planet, & Africa is soon going to add her millions to the glut of humanity that wants 
a shiny new way of life that's actually a shortcut to an early demise; U may live longer, with medical care, 
but not as well - with obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, high blood-pressure, mobility issues, 
inflammatory diseases of many sorts, & limited activity. "More meat" is just another consumer greed, 
like a new car every 2-years, a new gadget, a new wardrobe, the right brand-names... the planet 
can't afford our insane consumption at that level.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

profx said:


> As long as an animal is humanely killed and there is a good reason for them to be killed (i.e meat) then I see no problem with it (and I am not a hypocrite either, I would work in a slaughterhouse), we evolved from chimps, who are meat eaters and therefore it is natural for us to eat meat. (although it is also natural not to, as quite a few primates are herbivores). Does that mean all human omnivores are animal haters? No!


'To kill to eat' is not a good reason, it's a selfish one.

No it doesn't mean they are all animal haters, it just means their need to satisfy their taste buds far outweighs any consideration for the life and the death of the animal. A lot of people are pet lovers not animal lovers. You cannot love an animal but be happy for it to have an early, usually traumatic and terrifying death just so you can have a few minutes of sensory pleasure while it passes through your mouth into your stomach.

People will always come back with "But if we didn't eat them they wouldn't be bred and therefore would not have a life". If animals could speak I bet the majority of them if given a choice would rather have never been born than have to endure the amount of suffering they go through from birth to death.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

LynnM said:


> 'To kill to eat' is not a good reason, it's a selfish one.
> 
> No it doesn't mean they are all animal haters, it just means their need to satisfy their taste buds far outweighs any consideration for the life and the death of the animal. A lot of people are pet lovers not animal lovers. You cannot love an animal but be happy for it to have an early, usually traumatic and terrifying death just so you can have a few minutes of sensory pleasure while it passes through your mouth into your stomach.
> 
> People will always come back with "But if we didn't eat them they wouldn't be bred and therefore would not have a life". If animals could speak I bet the majority of them if given a choice would rather have never been born than have to endure the amount of suffering they go through from birth to death.


Here's the nail and LynnM just hit it on the head  
I really cannot argue the whole "But we're made to eat meat", "humanely killed" because Ive done it so many times and it drives me insane. Totally agree, most people love their pets but animals in general, not really.

I offer you a hamburger. Oh yes please! I offer you a dog burger. What the hell is wrong with you? You're sick! To me an animal is an animal. They all deserve to live a pain free life, be it a dog tied up in a garden 24/7 and beaten by its owner or the the piglet being dragged screaming from its mother, as she screams on her way to her "humane" death.

I believe all animals deserve to live and live a pain free life, lets not pick and choose. Just because you love milk in your tea and cheese in your sandwiches isnt a good enough reason for a living being to endure a short and hellish life.

I could go on and on and on. Bottom line is, I'm not a self righteous Vegan, I'm an ******* like anyone else, but I believe all animals have the right to live and be their own being, not born, raised and murdered so we can have cheese, meat and milk.

Lets speak up for the voiceless, as you would for a puppy in a cage, locked in a shed 24/7, lets apply the same love and sympathy for all animals.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Pupcakes said:


> Lets speak up for the voiceless, as you would for a puppy in a cage, locked in a shed 24/7, lets apply the same love and sympathy for all animals.


Bravo!

Beautiful....


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Kinship

ella wheeler wilcox kinship


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LynnM said:


> 'To kill to eat' is not a good reason, it's a selfish one.
> 
> No it doesn't mean they are all animal haters, it just means their need to satisfy their taste buds far outweighs any consideration for the life and the death of the animal. A lot of people are pet lovers not animal lovers. You cannot love an animal but be happy for it to have an early, usually traumatic and terrifying death just so you can have a few minutes of sensory pleasure while it passes through your mouth into your stomach.
> 
> People will always come back with "But if we didn't eat them they wouldn't be bred and therefore would not have a life". If animals could speak I bet the majority of them if given a choice would rather have never been born than have to endure the amount of suffering they go through from birth to death.


Food is more than just satisfying tastebuds though.

Even if you could argue that in certain parts of the western world we could survive well without meat, what about other parts of the world?

Do you keep meat eating pets? If you do then you are also contributing to the meat industry. It's al very well arguing that they are 'natural' meat eater but I bet they don't go & hunt for their food, it's generally bought by owners.

Do you have leather shoes, belts, bags, etc? Then this also comes from animals, if you do not wear these then good for you but alot (most!) vegetarians I know wear these so somewhat hypocritical I think.


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## profx (Apr 29, 2011)

LynnM said:


> 'To kill to eat' is not a good reason, it's a selfish one.
> 
> No it doesn't mean they are all animal haters, it just means their need to satisfy their taste buds far outweighs any consideration for the life and the death of the animal. A lot of people are pet lovers not animal lovers. You cannot love an animal but be happy for it to have an early, usually traumatic and terrifying death just so you can have a few minutes of sensory pleasure while it passes through your mouth into your stomach.
> 
> People will always come back with "But if we didn't eat them they wouldn't be bred and therefore would not have a life". If animals could speak I bet the majority of them if given a choice would rather have never been born than have to endure the amount of suffering they go through from birth to death.


To say it is usually traumatic is a lie, some slaughterhouses' use/have used terrible methods in the past, but the method of slaughter is almost painless nowadays, the animal is bolted in the head which renders it dead within a split second.

Like cleo83 said, it is more than just satisfying taste buds, do you think wild carnivores eat other animals (in a far more horrid way than we do I might add) just to satisfy their taste buds?.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

profx said:


> To say it is usually traumatic is a lie, some slaughterhouses' use/have used terrible methods in the past, but the method of slaughter is almost painless nowadays, the animal is bolted in the head which renders it dead within a split second.
> 
> Like cleo83 said, it is more than just satisfying taste buds, do you think wild carnivores eat other animals (in a far more horrid way than we do I might add) just to satisfy their taste buds?.


No, the bolt only stuns the animal, it has to then be bled out within a very short time, can't remember off hand, which is what actually kills it. With so many animals passing through the system sometimes the poor animals are actually conscious again, hanging by one hind leg and then have their throats cut and are fully aware of what is happening to them. Some are even dismembered or disembowelled while still conscious. You don't have to look far to find evidence of this.
You may say that it only happens to a minority but surely for it to happen to only one is one too many.

Wild animals and domesticated animals do eat other animals but that is the difference, they are wild animals, they don't know of the suffering they cause to their prey, we are supposed to be civilised and humane and we DO know but choose to ignore it and turn away from their plight. We put ourselves way above other species but the above fact means we are no better, if not worse than most.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> Food is more than just satisfying tastebuds though.
> 
> Even if you could argue that in certain parts of the western world we could survive well without meat, what about other parts of the world?
> 
> ...


I get where youre coming from, very good points raised and this is where other Vegans may disagree with me. My work colleague who is from Africa often tells me how he hunted with dogs back home and all the family ate meat, thats what they do and thats how they survive. I understand where Vusi comes from there isnt a Holland and Barratt on the street corner :lol:

For me, my main issue is here in the western world with SO many cruelty free alternatives where the majority of us have a disposable income (to some extent, i.e ****, chocolates non essentials) where we have the option to make a cruelty free choice but dont because of convience, price etc. Dont get me wrong, I know a 99p Cheeseburger from McDonalds is a lot more appealing than a vege 'sos' roll from H&B, but it would be great it people stopped and made the connection between the life that was taken for that 99p and re-think if they want to be a part of this.

Again in regards to pets, this is where other Vegans would probably dislike me but I feed my dogs meat because they NEED it to thrive, it would be cruel of me to expect them to live on tofu and beans all their lives. I buy them their NaturesMenu and Arden Grange with meat in it because they need it to thrive, where as I dont. This definitely makes me a hypocrite and is a hot debate in the vegan world.

Again, I'm not perfect, I dont buy leather products and I am getting used to looking into cruelty free products, I still have a hell of a long way to go, but as long as I am making steps towards a cruelty free life, I know I am doing all I can. I totally agree with the hypocritical vegetarians who wear leather and preach!

I am never going to be a preachy person, I am quiet and submissive by nature, but when I am passionate enough about something I try to show people my point of view. My fiancee has told me he will NEVER become Vegan. I respect that and when we get our own place I will continue to make my cakes and meals which he enjoys too but I am not going to force him into my lifestyle, Ive told him the only way I am going to convince people of Vegan food is to make nice meals and treats and share them out! Win them over with kindness! So far all my Vegan meals/treats havent last 2 seconds as all my non-V family and friends have scoffed the lot and asked when am I going to make more! :lol: That to me is a step in the right direction! Win them over with great food


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Well done Pupcakes, you put it better than I could but my thoughts entirely.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think it is only vegans that do not use any animal products whatsoever. I think vegetarians just don't eat meat, I suppose they look at it that the animal is killed for meat and not the leather so in theory it's not killed for them (unless it's from Indian cattle of course) and they are therefore buying a by-product. In the same way that a male calf is a by-product of the dairy industry and is disposed of. 

I also give my dogs food containing meat for the same reasons that you do. My dogs don't understand that they are contributing to suffering and therefore I will not force my beliefs on them. When they understand then I will 
My sisters vet actually advised that she put her 2 boxers on a vegetarian diet, no reason apart from he thought it was healthier for them and they have been on it since 10 weeks of age and have never had a days illness in their lives and are now quite elderly but still very fit and active, in fact overly so. My two will always choose a piece of raw carrot over a piece of chicken any day. I might look into it but will always do what's best for them in the end.

Some non vegetarians/vegans always come back with "But do you wear leather?". I've been asked that many times and can honestly say that I don't.

Somehow in my life I probably unknowingly cause suffering to animals but if I find out about it I will take steps to change it. 

I wonder how many of these people who are also pet lovers unknowingly own an item of clothing or accessories that are trimmed with dog or cat fur. Apparently there are thousands if not millions of such items imported from China every year and they do not have to state on the label whether or not it is faux fur. Unless you are an expert I would imagine it is very difficult to distinguish between faux fur and cat or dog fur. Although I do vaguely remember reading somewhere that you could burn a few strands and tell from the smell, but I don't think I would be able to tell. :sad:

My Dad who is 86 and a typical traditional meat and 2 veg and potatoes man would happily swap any meat dinner for my very tasty vegetable lasagne made with non dairy products.

Unfortunately this debate could go on for ever because humans will always cause suffering to other species unknowingly and through no choice of their own, just by being humans.


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## Bloodraine5252 (Jan 13, 2013)

Personally, I eat meat. I also keep pets. I do love animals and don't think they should suffer. I like so little and its always been a struggle for me to eat that I won't stop eating meat as I wouldn't be eating much else. If I'm shopping I always buy free range etc.

I would also eat dog/cat/insects and probably human if it was on the market. I wouldn't eat my pets (or hopefully anyone else's!) But if they were bred for that purpose and humanely killed I'd have no issue.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Food is more than just satisfying tastebuds though.
> 
> Even if you could argue that in certain parts of the western world we could survive well without meat, what about other parts of the world?
> 
> ...


Unfortunately other parts of the world are starving! There is enough grain in the world to feed everyone so no-one needs to starve but unfortunately so much is imported to the western world from their countries to feed animals in the meat industry. It takes 7 - 10 kgs of grain to produce only 1 kg of meat. How many more people could that grain feed if it were not used for producing meat?

It takes 1500 litres of water to produce 1kg of wheat whereas it takes 10 times more to produce 1kg meat. So not only is meat eating bad for the animal concerned it is also bad for the planet and we only have one chance to get it right and so far we are failing miserably :sad:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Pupcakes said:


> I get where youre coming from, very good points raised and this is where other Vegans may disagree with me. My work colleague who is from Africa often tells me how he hunted with dogs back home and all the family ate meat, thats what they do and thats how they survive. I understand where Vusi comes from there isnt a Holland and Barratt on the street corner :lol:
> 
> For me, my main issue is here in the western world with SO many cruelty free alternatives where the majority of us have a disposable income (to some extent, i.e ****, chocolates non essentials) where we have the option to make a cruelty free choice but dont because of convience, price etc. Dont get me wrong, I know a 99p Cheeseburger from McDonalds is a lot more appealing than a vege 'sos' roll from H&B, but it would be great it people stopped and made the connection between the life that was taken for that 99p and re-think if they want to be a part of this.
> 
> ...


I'm not disputing that some pets are meat eaters & cannot be fed on a vegetarian diet, even when I was vegan I would never have inflicted this on my cats as I would have killed them.

My point is though, how can people be so vehemently against the meat industry whilst choosing to keep pets who eat meat & therefore indirectly contributing to the killing of animals? Surely if someone was that against this they would only keep pets that could be fed a vegetarian diet :confused1:

I do not eat meat (pescatarian) & have been vegan (in the past) & a very strict vegetarian.I was quite preachy at some stages  but am not now, probably because I can see that this is not a black & white issue & is far more complex.

I eat fish because I like it, I've caught & killed fish to eat & did I feel guilty? No. We are also going to get some chickens next year to eat (for my OH). They will have a lovely life with us until the times comes for them to become dinner. I wasn't sure if I would be able to do this but in some ways it is easier knowing they will be well looked after & the end will be very quick.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Cleo38 said:


> I'm not disputing that some pets are meat eaters & cannot be fed on a vegetarian diet, even when I was vegan I would never have inflicted this on my cats as I would have killed them.
> 
> My point is though, how can people be so vehemently against the meat industry whilst choosing to keep pets who eat meat & therefore indirectly contributing to the killing of animals? Surely if someone was that against this they would only keep pets that could be fed a vegetarian diet :confused1:
> 
> ...


On my phone atm so cant do big quotes back as my phone is crap! But in regards to owning meat eating pets, I bought Dottie and Charlie back when I ate meat and dairy products. The only solution for me to not contribute now to "the enemy" as you will is to re-home my dogs which as you can imagine isnt an option for me.

It really is a difficult one and does this mean I am saying in the future I will never own another dog because now I am equipped with the knowledge I didnt have 4years ago? I cant see my life without a dog but how can I preach when I am buying my dog meat products?

Owain would have to purchase their meat with his own food he buys and feed them whilst I paid for something else in the house, so I wouldn't be contributing to he meat industry.

More food for thought!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> Even if you could argue that *in certain parts of the western world we could survive well without meat*,
> what about other parts of the world?


The majority of the world-popn *currently* does "mostly without meat", outside industrialized countries - 
& even within them, as China and India have large sectors of high-tech industry & Western-style diets,
but they have even-larger popns which are rural, mostly village-level, & eat meat as a garnish.

The exceptions are island-popns, who are extremely dependent on reef fish.
So while they eat flesh, they are very poor, & they aren't raising steers in CAFOs.


Cleo38 said:


> Do you keep meat eating pets? ...then you... also [contribute] to the meat industry.


Meat-eating PETS are the least of it. :scared:

Check & see how much it takes in feeder-fish to raise *one pound* of carnivorous fish to market - 
salmon, tuna, etc. [Italy has a massive illegal trade in pen-fattened tuna, captured & kept in nets.]

Our pets overwhelmingly eat domesticated meat-animals; farmed fish eat *wild fish*, caught for the purpose.
This is incredibly destructive, & far-reaching in its effects.


Cleo38 said:


> Do you have leather shoes, belts, bags, etc? ...this also comes from animals...


Yes - i eat an overwhelmingly-veg diet, plus organic dairy, certified-humane eggs, & sustainable cold-water 
fish.

I also have leather belts, boots, & leashes. Am i bothered by it? No.

leather is a by-product of the meat-industry, & my NOT buying leather will NOT stop the meat-industry.
Throwing out the wrapper, the skin, of a 1200 to 1800# carcass is waste; as far as i'm concerned, as a farm-raised 
kid & farming young adult, we are honor-bound to use EVERYthing of any animal we kill - feathers, skin,
organs, blood, bones, eggshell, hair, *all of it.* The old saying, "everything of the pig but the squeal",
is a good reminder of that moral absolute. If we kill an animal, ALL of it gets used.

CHROME-tanned leather [which is anything not labeled veg-tanned] is highly polluting & destructive.

OTOH, my buying & using veg-tanned [non-chrome] leather leashes means that i have leashes which last 
an average of 15 to 20 years of hard use, getting softer & more supple with age - BETTER, not worse.
They are kind to hands, kind to dogs, & last forever. They don't burn my palms, cut my hands, 
pill, fray, or have stitching fail. They shouldn't be used as drag-lines on the beach, but that's about their 
only limitation.

Leather boots breathe - my hiking-boots lasted over 6-years, could be worn into water so long as it 
did not go over the boot-tops, didn't leak, & protected my feet from heat, cold, & injury.
They had a full liner of vapor-permeable material, so even on a 90-F day my feet weren't drowned 
in sweat; my skin was healthy, i had no blisters, & neither my boots nor my feet STANK.

My everyday shoes are solid resin clogs, worn with socks. They're recyclable - send 'em back, they make more
shoes from the same material. They're chef or nurse clogs: top-rack dishwasher safe, disinfect-able.
Washable shoes that are now 8-YO that i can wear on the beach or thru puddles without worrying that 
my feet will be soaked, or my shoes will be ruined.

I go for practical - and i don't have any apologies or misgivings about my choices.
Being narrow-mindedly focused on some ethical principal like "no animal products" leads inexorably to 
some bizarre conflict of ethics; i don't use any products TESTED on animals other than Rx drugs. I don't use 
polluting cleansers, not on me, my home, my laundry, my work. I avoid petrochemicals, BUT OWN & WEAR 
solid-polyurethane shoes... which are durable, practical, comfy, & recyclable.

i don't buy bottled water - i carry a S/S flask.
i recycle anything that's conceivably possible, & i try to avoid buying non-recyclable packaging - 
which sometimes means avoiding specific brands of foods i like, as the packaging is crap waste.

i use low-energy bulbs, rechargable batteries where i can, & recycle my button batteries.
i use public transit.

Do U really think that someone can point a finger at my leather belt & scream, *"Killer!"*, 
& have me feel guilty? :lol: That the onlooker doesn't know a damned thing about me is a given.

Appearances & assumptions lead to lousy judgments. Life isn't neatly black & white, with choices as rigorous 
as the crystal structure of minerals. Life is messy; we do what we can [or we don't] to limit our own impacts.
.
.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

leashedForLife said:


> The majority of the world-popn *currently* does "mostly without meat", outside industrialized countries -
> & even within them, as China and India have large sectors of high-tech industry & Western-style diets,
> but they have even-larger popns which are rural, mostly village-level, & eat meat as a garnish.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with people living their lives as they see fit, we all make choices, we are all hypocritical to a degree, but what does annoy me is those who simply decide that people are selfish if they decide to eat meat with no real argument :confused1:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Cleo38 said:


> ... what does annoy me is those who simply decide that people are selfish if they decide to eat meat
> with no real argument. :confused1:


even if U eat meat, U can limit it.

As a cost-cutting measure, the University Club on PSU campus went to one-day a week, eating vegie.
I was the house cook, & one resident, an African grad-student, drove me absolutely ape-sh!t by whining 
EVERY vegie-day, _"...but we haven't had our protein!..." _ :crazy:

I finally took a copy of our weekly menu to Penn State's nutrition-dept, & asked if they'd tell me if we were
meeting our residents' needs for protein intake. I was informed 3 days later that if the residents ate a portion 
of every meat item & dairy item on offer that week, as an entree', the menu *exceeded* protein needs for 
a 22-YO 6-ft tall adult male by 20%.

the African resident was a 30-YO sedentary female, but that didn't convince her. :lol: I gave up.
She whined so long as the menu continued, even on days when the veg-entree was veg-lasagna with 3 cheeses.
She was an ignorant, pig-headed, demanding person.  I was coping with a household of 45 residents, 
over half of them foreign students, Muslim, Indian, Asian, central & south American, central European, 
north African,... we had 1 lactose-intolerant person, & 1 who couldn't eat anything containing caffeine 
[chocolate, tea, cola, ...], plus dietary restrictions that were religious [pigs, beef, etc].

I coped OK with all the juggling - but her refusal to admit that humans didn't need MEAT at every meal 
drove me up the wall. I can't help but wonder where the H*** she grew up; her schooling was govt-paid.
She had to have been raised in a very wealthy household, but she knew nothing about nutrition. :nonod:


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> I have no problem with people living their lives as they see fit, we all make choices, we are all hypocritical to a degree, but what does annoy me is those who simply decide that people are selfish if they decide to eat meat with no real argument :confused1:


If that was aimed at me then let me try to explain what I meant....

profx posted "...as long as there is a good reason for them to be killed (i.e.meat) then I see no problem....

Some people think it's wrong that animals are raised or trapped for fur or are slaughtered for ivory or killed for medicinal products or one of many other reasons humans choose to kill but at the same time say that it's ok for them to be killed for meat. Because this is something that they themselves want, they justify it by saying it's a 'good reason' but that also makes it a selfish reason i.e. other peoples reason for killing is wrong, mine is right.....Selfish.

The Chinese will also argue that what they are doing in slaughtering animals for their belief that they can cure ailments is a good reason for killing because that's what they want to do. Just found out after watching a programme last night that they kill 150 million seahorses a year, many whose belly's contain thousands of young therefore killing any possible future replenishment.

The fur trappers can argue that what they do is a good reason for killing because that's what they want to do.

The ivory poachers can argue that what they do is a good reason for killing because that's what they want to do.

At the end of the day all are killing and they all believe that their reason is ok, so to criticise them and claim your reason is ok, that's what makes it selfish.

Either they are all wrong or they are all right. Killing is killing no matter what the reason and one is no worse than another.

Hope that makes it clearer.


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## Indiandpuppy (Feb 24, 2013)

I am a vegetarian, Non fish eating. I won't eat gelatine, cochineal, rennet etc- ie a strict veggie!

I drink milk and I use free range omega eggs occasionally




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like handbags, alot!
However all my leather handbags are from charity shops and vintage shops 

any leather or fur products I have are ebayed or from flea markets and charity shops and vintage shops  

Including shoes! Majority of my shoes are trainers though so they are new.

I will also not use animal tested products


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## Thorne (May 11, 2009)

Just going to play devil's advocate here.

There are lots of posts from dog and cat owners on here who are saying that it is wrong and unjustifiable to fund the meat/animal product production system and the killing of animals.
If that is so, why do you own meat-eating animals? The meat you feed your dogs & cats comes from the same system as meat for human consumption so IMO it is _extremely_ hypocritical to condemn meat-eating humans while continuing to buy meat for your pets, which you own for your own enjoyment.
Feeding a carnivorous or primarily carnivorous animal a vegetarian/vegan diet is also unethical in my book, so surely those of you who care deeply enough about animal welfare should keep purely herbivorous pets, or none at all.

Want to eat animal products but don't want to fund the inherent poor welfare systems? Don't buy cheap meat, dairy or eggs.
Don't want to eat animal products? That's fine, but please don't slate others choices while continuing to fund the systems you condemn to buy food for your pet.
Don't want your pet to eat meat? Don't buy a carnivorous or omnivorous pet.


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## Pupcakes (Jun 20, 2011)

Thorne said:


> Just going to play devil's advocate here.
> 
> There are lots of posts from dog and cat owners on here who are saying that it is wrong and unjustifiable to fund the meat/animal product production system and the killing of animals.
> If that is so, why do you own meat-eating animals? The meat you feed your dogs & cats comes from the same system as meat for human consumption so IMO it is _extremely_ hypocritical to condemn meat-eating humans while continuing to buy meat for your pets, which you own for your own enjoyment.
> ...


In response to this post, I'll copy and paste my previous replies (just being lazy!)

_*I get where youre coming from, very good points raised and this is where other Vegans may disagree with me. My work colleague who is from Africa often tells me how he hunted with dogs back home and all the family ate meat, thats what they do and thats how they survive. I understand where Vusi comes from there isnt a Holland and Barratt on the street corner

For me, my main issue is here in the western world with SO many cruelty free alternatives where the majority of us have a disposable income (to some extent, i.e ****, chocolates non essentials) where we have the option to make a cruelty free choice but dont because of convience, price etc. Dont get me wrong, I know a 99p Cheeseburger from McDonalds is a lot more appealing than a vege 'sos' roll from H&B, but it would be great it people stopped and made the connection between the life that was taken for that 99p and re-think if they want to be a part of this.

Again in regards to pets, this is where other Vegans would probably dislike me but I feed my dogs meat because they NEED it to thrive, it would be cruel of me to expect them to live on tofu and beans all their lives. I buy them their NaturesMenu and Arden Grange with meat in it because they need it to thrive, where as I dont. This definitely makes me a hypocrite and is a hot debate in the vegan world.

Again, I'm not perfect, I dont buy leather products and I am getting used to looking into cruelty free products, I still have a hell of a long way to go, but as long as I am making steps towards a cruelty free life, I know I am doing all I can. I totally agree with the hypocritical vegetarians who wear leather and preach!

I am never going to be a preachy person, I am quiet and submissive by nature, but when I am passionate enough about something I try to show people my point of view. My fiancee has told me he will NEVER become Vegan. I respect that and when we get our own place I will continue to make my cakes and meals which he enjoys too but I am not going to force him into my lifestyle, Ive told him the only way I am going to convince people of Vegan food is to make nice meals and treats and share them out! Win them over with kindness! So far all my Vegan meals/treats havent last 2 seconds as all my non-V family and friends have scoffed the lot and asked when am I going to make more! That to me is a step in the right direction! Win them over with great food* _

&

_*On my phone atm so cant do big quotes back as my phone is crap! But in regards to owning meat eating pets, I bought Dottie and Charlie back when I ate meat and dairy products. The only solution for me to not contribute now to "the enemy" as you will is to re-home my dogs which as you can imagine isnt an option for me.

It really is a difficult one and does this mean I am saying in the future I will never own another dog because now I am equipped with the knowledge I didnt have 4years ago? I cant see my life without a dog but how can I preach when I am buying my dog meat products?

Owain would have to purchase their meat with his own food he buys and feed them whilst I paid for something else in the house, so I wouldn't be contributing to he meat industry.

More food for thought!*_


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LynnM said:


> Unfortunately other parts of the world are starving! There is enough grain in the world to feed everyone so no-one needs to starve but unfortunately so much is imported to the western world from their countries to feed animals in the meat industry. It takes 7 - 10 kgs of grain to produce only 1 kg of meat. How many more people could that grain feed if it were not used for producing meat?
> 
> It takes 1500 litres of water to produce 1kg of wheat whereas it takes 10 times more to produce 1kg meat. So not only is meat eating bad for the animal concerned it is also bad for the planet and we only have one chance to get it right and so far we are failing miserably :sad:


But even grain, vegetables & fruit is not produced without animal deaths. Producers of that will be protecting their crop from pests, where I live most farmers employ locals to shoot rabbits & (& soon to start) deer. There are constantly vermin control companies around to bait certain areas to kill the rats, would that be acceptable? What about the impact of pesticides or water required for these type of crops?

As I said, I don't eat meat myself but have not problem with others who do. I also disagree that meat eaters are 'selfish' - it' a bit of a silly statement to make


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

I did feel attacked by LynnM's comment, so I would just like to repeat that, yes I do eat meat, but not much.

I would also like to explain that I am very lucky in that I live in the countryside and I can see the animals that later on, in old age, or when they can no longer produce eggs or milk, get killed for meat, it is done as quickly and as painlessly as possible.

I only buy goats milk, and I have seen these goats, they have a lovely free range life.

Also one of my neighbours keeps ducks and she sells the eggs, I buy all my eggs from her and her ducks are free range.

I never eat out nor do I buy 'take-away' so I know where my meat (as small as the amount I have is) comes from.

I tried eating a vegetarian diet at one point but as I can't eat much dairy (small amounts of goats milk and I can use a small amount of eggs in cakes etc and that is all) and I can't eat nuts, I found it hard to stay healthy, therefore I was told I need to have meat to stay healthy. 

I'll probably regret submitting this but I do love ALL animals, I would never eat a young animal (lamb for example) but to stay healthy, I must eat some meat, I just make sure I know it has had a good life first.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

Animallover26 said:


> I only buy goats milk, and I have seen these goats, they have a lovely free range life.
> 
> Also one of my neighbours keeps ducks and she sells the eggs, I buy all my eggs from her and her ducks are free range.
> 
> I'll probably regret submitting this but I do love ALL animals, I would never eat a young animal (lamb for example) but to stay healthy, I must eat some meat, I just make sure I know it has had a good life first.


You are really lucky to be able to make the most ethical choices you can  , and to give so much thought to it.

But - what happens to the male kids whose mothers live the free-range life? And the young drakes who will never grow up to lay an egg? Surely if you drink the milk, you have an obligation to eat the male kid or young drake (but they should certainly have a good life and a quick clean and pain-free death).

I don't mean to seem harsh or attacking you, I eat free-range eggs, and drink organic milk. I never used to eat veal because it was raised so cruelly. After the rearing methods were changed in Britain so that calves should no longer be caged, I bought some veal. That sat in my freezer for months. I didn't know what to do with it, because my Mum never bought veal either because of the cruelty, and I actually felt physically sick when I looked at it. I did eventually make myself eat it, and would eat it again while I still drink milk, because I can't see how not to until cows can lactate without giving birth.

I have tried to move onto a Vegan diet (but didn't last); however I try to have two meatless (aim is for two animal product free) days a week, and hopefully build up from there.

To be truly ethical and no way hypocritical is a very big ask - no wool, no honey, no leather (sofas and car seats included), as well as no meat, eggs, milk, ice-cream. And then find the least ecologically damaging alternatives; it ain't easy in our brutal "civilized" society.

As far as keeping meat-eating pets is concerned, that's hard - feeding only road-kill would seem to be the only option.

IMHO the best any of us can do is to be informed and aware of what goes on in our food-chain, and try to persuade food producers and sellers and governments to ensure the highest standards of animal husbandry.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

spannels said:


> To be truly ethical and no way hypocritical is a very big task - no wool, no honey...


I grew up with sheep, & i can't get too exercised about wool - the amount of time the sheep spend being 
stressed by shearing is very small, it's an annual late-spring event, i've been there & done it, & our home flock 
really wasn't much fussed, afterward - each sheep stood up, shook him or herself off, & trotted off.

Sheep flocks are pastured, they aren't a full-confinement species; they won't thrive living in a barn,
so unlike hogs, chickens, etc, they don't get shoved into buildings & live out their lives there.

Our sheep had pasture all year round, & a shed for night shelter, which was closed to keep predators out.

We sold our young rams as Easter lambs, but we could just as easily have desexed them, kept them as wethers,
& used them simply for wool.

As for honey, our farm also had honeybees - unfortunately, my father chose a very-hot strain of Italians,
& as a result of all my childhood stings, i live with allergy issues. But again, our bees were well cared for, 
only hassled in late fall, didn't have any antibiotic or pesticide exposure, we had fruit trees & small fruits 
that they pollinated - it was very much a give & take relationship.

*Chinese honey* is highly unethical, they use antibiotics of many kinds directly on the bees, 
the honey itself is contaminated with pesticides, etc, & it's a glut on the global market; it's so stinkin' cheap, 
stuff that would NEVER have contained honey in my youth, does now - which complicates my shopping considerably, 
as i have to read every #[email protected]%&! ingredient-panel.

for more on the Chinese honey problem, see - 
Honey laundering: tainted and counterfeit Chinese honey floods into the U.S. | Grist

Chinese exporters are even trans-shipping their contaminated honey thru India, Thailand, Korea, 
& for more than a year, thru Australia. They micro-strain it to remove Chinese pollens so it can't be 
detected simply; it's a massive concern. Heavy-metal contamination in Chinese honey is common.

For me, a honeybee is a partner in fertilizing plants - more than 70% of the foods we humans eat need 
bee-pollination; nightshade crops require bumblebees, but everything from almonds to zucchini needs bees.

I'd love to be able to eat honey again, but my bee-sting allergy means i cannot have any bee products:
no beeswax in cosmetics, either. But if i had land, i'd keep stingless bees purely to help fertilize plants - 
ANYone's plants, wild or domestic.

Honeybees are very much endangered, around the world. It now takes 60% of the surviving USA-colonies 
to fertilize JUST the California almond crop - a $4-Billion market sold around the world.

I play host to native bee species including orchard bees, but we need honeybees, & IMO, 
they need us, too. Clean crops, organic ag, natural lawns without herbicide or fungicide, & similar changes 
in human lifestyles wouldn't only benefit humans, or honeybees, but would help the planet - reducing pollution,
saving soil, improving tilth.

There are folks keeping urban honeybee colonies, now. Ten years ago, that was virtually unheard of.
For me, it's a sign of hope. :001_smile:


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> As I said, I don't eat meat myself but have not problem with others who do. I also disagree that meat eaters are 'selfish' - it' a bit of a silly statement to make





Animallover26 said:


> I did feel attacked by LynnM's comment, so I would just like to repeat that, yes I do eat meat, but not much.
> 
> :mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:
> 
> ...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LynnM said:


> Animallover26 said:
> 
> 
> > I did feel attacked by LynnM's comment, so I would just like to repeat that, yes I do eat meat, but not much.
> ...


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> I grew up with sheep, & i can't get too exercised about wool - the amount of time the sheep spend being
> stressed by shearing is very small, it's an annual late-spring event, i've been there & done it, & our home flock
> really wasn't much fussed, afterward - each sheep stood up, shook him or herself off, & trotted off.
> 
> ...


That's a great scenario  . Sheep are probably one of the least exploited of domesticated animals, but even they (not the primitive breeds, of course) have been selectively bred for heavy non-shedding fleeces, so that they have to be shorn annually, instead of us going around picking shed wool off the thorn bushes as was originally done. They may be kept on unsuitable land, and develop painful hoof problems. They are, again selectively, bred to produce twins or even triplets, instead of single lambs and that puts extra strain on the ewes, every year. When they are old, they are slaughtered as they can no longer eat. I think your lucky home-bred flock were very kindly and humanely treated, but it's not the same for large commercial flocks - look at some of the herding and shearing practices on the large Australian farms, using helicopters and quadbikes to drive the flocks, and shearing the most sheep in the least time.

Commercial honey production involves removing the bees' natural food store and replacing it with (often far worse quality) sugar solution, giving the bees just enough to get by on.

I think the small family farms you speak about should be the norm, and if all the creatures could be treated so decently, there would be much less suffering, and much less heart-searching among those of us who try to respect animals. I know that there are small-holders in this country (Britain) who accompany their animals to the abbatoir, but this doesn't happen with the large commercial herds and flocks.

But we are stuck with the world we have created (or which has been created around us) and have to do the very best we can in the small areas which we can influence.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> LynnM said:
> 
> 
> > LOL, but you are... by the fact of owning a dog that eats meat you are contributing to the meat industry. The fact that your mum pays for this makes no difference. If you didn't own a dog then your wouldn't be but you have chosen to own a meat eating animal so are (even in a tiny way) contributing.
> ...


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

spannels said:


> You are really lucky to be able to make the most ethical choices you can  , and to give so much thought to it.
> 
> But - what happens to the male kids whose mothers live the free-range life? And the young drakes who will never grow up to lay an egg? Surely if you drink the milk, you have an obligation to eat the male kid or young drake (but they should certainly have a good life and a quick clean and pain-free death).
> 
> ...


I would say this. The ethos of the vegan diet is to live as harmlessly as possible. That recognises that there are elements of the food supply chain over which one has no control, so to live totally harmlessly in all aspects may not be possible, unless of course one is totally self-sufficient.
But of course one does have total control over what one puts in one's mouth.

Following a vegan diet is not easy, nothing worth doing ever is, but it is perfectly doable.
Great Vegan Athletes | Great Vegan Athletes
Donald Watson - Vegan Society Founder

There is nothing magical about red meat. The animals eaten acquire their strength and nutrition from plant foods. 
Veganism is following the same cycle of sustenance.

You make a good point about milk and egg production. 
Of course to produce milk a cow must give birth and because 'you' want to drink the milk that was destined by nature for the calf, the calf gets packed off to the slaughterhouse.
And eggs. The egg industry, of all persuasions, works its way through millions of chickens every year. Millions of birds leave the system each year when spent and go to slaughter. Millions more are brought in to replace them. But of course only females lay eggs. And as the male:female ratio is roughly 50:50 that means there are millions of male chicks, which as they are unwanted, at a day old, are either gassed or thrown live into a mincing machine...

As to the subject of 'humane slaughter' raised by another poster. There is a nice way of slitting someone's throat? 
The fact is 'you' are taking a gentle creature of the field, transporting it by lorry, via road journeys that can take hours (- or weeks even with Australian live seaborne exports) Arriving at the abbatoir, an industrialized complex with noisy machinery. The animals can sense, hear and see what awaits them. They are terrified. For them the hand that fed them has betrayed them into Hell.
Many animals are not stunned properly. Inevitable when slaughtermen are butchering animals by the thousand and to a schedule...

Members here are heartbroken when their beloved pet meets its end. They seek the comfort and reassurance that they will meet again in the Beyond - and they will, for their beloved companion had a soul... but so did the cow, pig, sheep or chicken that was spliced up for their supper.

Everyone is different, different values and different resolve, but all should be mindful and strive to live as harmlessly as they can, however they might perceive that...


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LynnM said:


> Cleo38 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, wasn't going to post anymore but it would be rude not to answer.
> ...


----------



## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

spannels said:


> Commercial honey production involves removing the bees' natural food store and replacing it with
> (often far worse quality) sugar solution, giving the bees just enough to get by on.


I've never heard that, nor seen it.

The supers underneath the queen-excluder [a screen that keeps the queen confined to lower levels, 
so she doesn't lay eggs in all the honeycombs, but only in the bottom ones] are intended for the HIVE.
They are not only honey, but eggs & larvae of various ages - & honeybees have an extremely complex 
growing-up process, where bees of different ages literally do entirely different jobs.

When honey is harvested, the only supers taken are those above the excluder, so that U aren't taking 
the eggs or young bees, only the honey - & all the honey in the lower supers are left for the hive's use.

If U take so much honey that the hive needs supplemental feeding, U run the risk of losing the entire hive - 
which is worth much more than the contents of the combs, & they'd be clogged with eggs, larvae & pupae,
too. Why would any producer be that stoopid?

U can't cleanly harvest honey from a comb that has even a few larvae - U will kill the larvae, & probably 
get body parts or body fluids in the honey. It's really stoopid, wasteful, time consuming, & self-defeating.
U lose the young bees that are needed to replace the aging workers [worker is the final stage of a bee's life, 
which is only 28 to 35 days total]. Queens live 2 to 3 years; drones, 30 to 50 days. A HIVE can live for decades,
swarming to found new colonies as their popn grows, but the original hive continues in place.

Here's a honeycomb frame from UNDER the excluder:








Here's one from ABOVE it








Here's an empty frame the bees will use as a pattern, & fill








Here's a honey super, with filled frames








Here's a 2-frame spinning extractor; the honey is spun out by centrifugal force, 
runs down to the bottom, & a spigot is opened to bottle the raw honey








There's no sense in pulling a super with larvae, as the hive LIVES there - U can't evict them all, for honey that's 
full of bee-larvae & eggs. They have to *go somewhere* if U pull every super - U can't just let them roam,
they'll leave.

If U steal all the honey, they'll starve - even sugar-water is only a short-term solution, it lacks the nutrients
of pollen & nectar, & it's not as concentrated a food-source. One honeybee could fly around the world 
on 2 teaspoons of honey - it's extremely efficient nutrition.
.
.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> LynnM said:
> 
> 
> > LOL, can you really not get it?!
> ...


----------



## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I like honey and we use a lot of it.my husband likes a bit in his morning cup of coffee and I think as well as tasting so good you can use it as a sweetener in lots of things.plus, its medicinal too.

I buy mine from a local man who keeps bees.and he asks his customers exactly what are they using it for when he sells a jar.a jar costs £4 for pound.

As for meat.......can't ever see the whole world going veggie....so, what is important is animal welfare and husbandry and believe it or not, we do have strict controls in abbattoirs in this country.

and.goats milk.it is possible for maiden nanny goats to produce milk without ever having produced a kid.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

LynnM said:


> You know what, I'm going to ignore your comments in the same way that you have chosen to ignore mine. This all stems from my comment to profx about it being a selfish choice, not a good choice, which you wrongfully took to mean that I think anyone who eats meat is selfish. I personally don't give a flying fig what people eat but to criticise another person for their reason for killing and to say yours is a 'good' reason for killing IS nothing more than a selfish reason.
> Someone then posted that it was ok as long as it was humane. I, along with several others stated that it is not humane but again you chose to single me out.
> I then tried to explain, not once but twice, my reasoning for saying why what they said was a selfish reason, yet you still chose to misinterpret it and twist it put your own slant on it.
> 
> ...


LOL, answering a post with a different viewpoint IS NOT bullying, it is what is .... replying to a post   I

I quoted your post as you did not seem to see the connection between you owning a meat eating pet & contributing to the meat industry which I find odd. It is not meant to single you out at all


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## ForestWomble (May 2, 2013)

spannels said:


> You are really lucky to be able to make the most ethical choices you can  , and to give so much thought to it.
> 
> But - what happens to the male kids whose mothers live the free-range life? And the young drakes who will never grow up to lay an egg? Surely if you drink the milk, you have an obligation to eat the male kid or young drake (but they should certainly have a good life and a quick clean and pain-free death).


The kids get to nurse from their mothers until they are weened, plus they don't get killed after weening, they get to live out their life.

The lady I buy eggs from doesn't take all the eggs every time so they all get to hatch out eggs occasionally.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> LOL, answering a post with a different viewpoint IS NOT bullying, it is what is .... replying to a post   I
> 
> I quoted your post as you did not seem to see the connection between you owning a meat eating pet & contributing to the meat industry which I find odd. It is not meant to single you out at all


Ok then, with your thinking I am also guilty on numerous other offences. I give a lot of money to animal charities, probably more than I can afford and also sponsor a dog at Dogs Trust, who I imagine eats meat. So maybe I should discontinue my donations so that I don't contribute to the meat industry. I'll certainly be a hell of a lot better off moneywise.
I sometimes give to human charities,(though none that test on animals), if someone is collecting, so by your thinking I maybe shouldn't do this anymore in case that money is going towards helping someone who eats meat and that would also make me guilty.  

I think those scenarios would also make me a very uncompassionate person.

I do see the connection between owning a meat eating pet and contributing to the meat industry but I personally do not pay for or buy my dogs food, my mum does so therefore she and them are contributing to the meat industry. If I am not parting with money to feed them then HOW am I contributing. Contributing is to give, I am NOT giving. If I bought their food then yes I would be contributing. She also paid half the money to buy the dogs so in theory you could say they are half hers, but she buys their food and I look after them. She has them when I'm at work or have to go out for longer than 4 hours and sometimes just because she loves them and wants to see them for a while.

What about vegans/ vegetarians who rehome rescued dogs rather than them being euthanized? 
Is it better that they save a life albeit a meat eating life or would you rather they were made to feel they were going against their principles and leave the dog in the shelter to die? That's what it boils down to when you start nit picking.

I have explained numerous times how I personally DO NOT contribute to the meat industry. I have animals under my roof who eat meat. I DO NOT pay for that meat nor do I even go to the shop and bring it home.

This could go on for ever and personally I am now getting very bored with it and it is just going round in circles so I do not feel that I have to defend myself anymore.

So I do the mature thing and will not reply to your same old questions anymore. There are only so many times I am willing to repeat the same old answers and I have now reached that limit. If you do not understand now then you are never going to be able to. :nonod:


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> 1) As for meat.......can't ever see the whole world going veggie....so, what is important is animal welfare and husbandry and believe it or not, we do have strict controls in abbattoirs in this country.


1) Actually livestock production at the present level is unsustainable. We cannot feed 10 billion people, estimated to be the global population by 2050 or thereabouts, on the 'meat and dairy' diet.
That is why scientists are trying to create test-tube meat...
We could however, it is estimated, feed up to 11 billion people on a plant based diet - that is using the current available farmland to grow plant food for humans, instead of using the majority of it for livestock production (grazing and growing animal feed.)

2) "Strict controls in abbattoirs"? Like this you mean?
Outrage at Illegal Welfare Abuses at British Slaughterhouse | World Horse Welfare

AR campaigners working undercover visit slaughterhouses at random and secretly film and expose such abuses on a regular basis. They find such things on the off chance, what is happening on days when they aren't there to catch it all on film?

This 'humane slaughter' thing is both a sop to the conscience and a myth. The picture is not rosy. Which is why there is a campaign to have CCTV compulsary installed in slaughterhouses. CCTV hasn't ended crime on our streets and I don't suppose it will end cruelty in slaughterhouses, but it is at least a start
CCTV in slaughterhouses - Farm animal campaigns - Campaigns


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> ... there is a campaign to have CCTV compulsory-installed in slaughterhouses. CCTV hasn't ended crime on our streets
> and I don't suppose it will end cruelty in slaughterhouses, but it is at least a start.
> 
> CCTV in slaughterhouses - Farm animal campaigns - Campaigns


good idea - i'd definitely support that. :thumbsup:


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> I've never heard that, nor seen it.
> 
> When honey is harvested, the only supers taken are those above the excluder, so that U aren't taking
> the eggs or young bees, only the honey - & all the honey in the lower supers are left for the hive's use.
> ...


I'm not a bee-keeper, so I'll bow to your greater knowledge  . My information (or possibly mis-information) was from one of the sources I was reading back when I was looking for information on Veganism; needless to say, I can't now find it  , although I do remember (because I love honey) that it was strongly against the use of honey on the grounds I mentioned, but without the source that cannot stand here.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

Animallover26 said:


> The kids get to nurse from their mothers until they are weened, plus they don't get killed after weening, they get to live out their life.
> 
> The lady I buy eggs from doesn't take all the eggs every time so they all get to hatch out eggs occasionally.


Kids - if 50% (average) of the kids produced are males, the goat-keeper must have a several of Billy-goats of all ages living on her farm. I suppose though if she has only two or three nannies it could be do-able if they were castrated.

Ducks - again, 50% of the hatchlings would be expected to be males, so will never lay an egg. Do they, too, have a life-long home with the lady?

I'm not saying I don't believe that there is such a kind person in this world, just that it would be very unusual for someone to keep and care for a whole lot of unproductive male animals. I've heard of people selling their surplus male goats for breeding or as pets/lawn-mowers, but not sure about surplus drakes.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

spannels said:


> Kids -
> if 50% (average) of the kids produced are males, the goat-keeper must have ...several... Billy-goats of all ages
> living on her farm. I suppose though if she has only two or three nannies it could be do-able, if they were castrated.


U can't keep intact billies near milch-goats, the stink of an intact-billy will taint the milk. Not an exaggeration, BTW.
Many dairy-goat keepers have a separate stall & run for the billy, or they use a billy who lives elsewhere as a sire, 
& have only milch-goats, kids, & desexed males on the dairy holding.


spannels said:


> Ducks -
> again, 50% of the hatchlings would be expected to be M, so will never lay an egg. Do they, too, have a life-long home...?
> 
> ...I've heard of people selling their surplus male goats for breeding or as pets/ lawn-mowers,
> but not sure about surplus drakes.


Roosters can be caponized, but i'm not sure about desexing drakes.
They do make nice live-ornaments on ponds, but U have to live with a certain amount of duck-poop, 
altho they won't graze the lawn & leave massive amounts of wet green poop as geese do.

Domestic drakes WILL however mate with any wild duck, & they will also rape wild ducks who are already 
paired, resulting in hybrid offspring who will muddy the gene-pool even further. If U won't desex them before 
they leave Ur possession, then i'm personally all for killing them - they can be fed to other animals, donated to 
a zoo as food for resident carnivores, etc.

Yes, neutered male goats make terrific mowers, especially on steep grades, or clearing vines & brush on overgrown 
acreage, empty lots, roadside strips, etc.
.
.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Knightofalbion said:


> 1) Actually livestock production at the present level is unsustainable. We cannot feed 10 billion people, estimated to be the global population by 2050 or thereabouts, on the 'meat and dairy' diet.
> That is why scientists are trying to create test-tube meat...
> We could however, it is estimated, feed up to 11 billion people on a plant based diet - that is using the current available farmland to grow plant food for humans, instead of using the majority of it for livestock production (grazing and growing animal feed.)
> 
> ...


Horse slaughtering is not the norm in UK.

Its not a nice business any form of slaughter which is why if it has to be done it has to be done under strict guidelines.

Modern slaughterhouses in Scotland anyway do have CCTV, don't know if this is compulsory or not.

they also have to have a vet on the premises making sure animals are fit when they arrive.

animal slaughter is a hush hush business, we all know it goes on but nobody wants to really face up to it cos its not pleasant.

More people need to get involved in it, people need to unsderstand where their meat comes from and didn;t always exist in a plastic bag in Tesco.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> Horse slaughtering is not the norm in UK.
> 
> Its not a nice business any form of slaughter which is why if it has to be done it has to be done under strict guidelines.
> 
> ...


Viva! - Vegetarians International Voice for Animals


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I agree with you knight, and in an ideal world, no animal would have to suffer.


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## spannels (Sep 9, 2011)

leashedForLife said:


> U can't keep intact billies near milch-goats, the stink of an intact-billy will taint the milk. Not an exaggeration, BTW.
> Many dairy-goat keepers have a separate stall & run for the billy, or they use a billy who lives elsewhere as a sire,
> & have only milch-goats, kids, & desexed males on the dairy holding.
> 
> ...


Glad you spelt it out, LforL; as a newbie I'm walking on eggshells at the moment trying to respect others' feelings, and squashing my natural scepticism a bit. FWIW my first reaction was to say  about the goats. Have seen wild drakes pestering and gang-raping ducks (almost drowning them in the process) it's quite vile.

This is just another of the ethical issues we have to face, having domesticated these animals: where in the wild the dominant male would have driven out the surplus males, we have to castrate them (or they are unmanageable and liable to mate with their mothers and sisters), and find a use for them alive or dead.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

spannels said:


> Glad you spelt it out, LforL; as a newbie I'm walking on eggshells at the moment trying to respect others' feelings,
> and squashing my natural scepticism a bit. FWIW my first reaction was to say  about the goats.
> Have seen wild drakes pestering and gang-raping ducks (almost drowning them in the process) it's quite vile.


Domestic mallards who are feral, & their lookalike larger relatives the Rouen drakes, are both absolutely notorious 
for raping ducks of any species, whether paired or single, young or old; it's heartbreaking to see a pair of ducks 
flying repeatedly around, flaring off ponds or flapping from open lawns, in a failing effort to escape some winged 
bully, who eventually will prevail - either by wearing them down to exhaustion, or catching the duck off-guard.

Unfortunately, they don't always "almost" kill the ducks - many times she is smothered if she's on dry land, 
or drowned if she's on the water, while anything from one to 8 or more drakes stand on & squabble over her. :nonod: 
it's an annual nightmare for wildlife hotlines, as the callers are understandably upset, but there's nothing 
we can do about it.


spannels said:


> This is just another of the ethical issues we have to face, having domesticated these animals:
> where in the wild the dominant male would [drive out] surplus males, we have to castrate them
> (or they are unmanageable and liable to mate with their mothers & sisters), & find a use for them, alive or dead.


Pretty much, yes. 
It amazes me how many ppl never bat an eye at the thought of a stallion or bull being desexed, yet they have 
a fit over the idea of THEIR male dog being desexed - Why? Yes, a 1200# horse is harder to control, 
a 1500# bull is very difficult to manage safely, but i don't see why castrating one is so dreadful, while desex 
of the others is practically universal.

Some male dogs breeze thru puphood & the teenaged testosterone-spike, they don't mount & hump every 
animate or inanimate object they encounter, don't bristle at / stare down / posture at all other males, 
don't lose their minds & any semblance of self-control or biddability in the presence of ANY female dog 
from 8-WO to 18-YO - prepubertal, spayed, *who cares!?*... but the typical male is something of a pain, 
leg-lifting is a problem at least sometimes, M:M reactivity or outright aggro aren't rare, & desexing to me
makes perfect sense - unless, of course, Ur male dog is to be bred, shown, or competed, & needs to be intact
for those reasons.
.
.


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## Canine K9 (Feb 22, 2013)

I eat meat but not fish. I'm allergic to some veggies and fruits and I hate the taste of them. I tried being a veggie but lost weight and hated meal times. So I eat meat purchased from a butcher with high welfare for the animals. But nothin is without suffering. If you buy your veg and grains some bunny has less food and dies because the veg and grain went for people that YOU bought.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

LynnM said:


> Hi, well I feel a bit bad as this is my first post on here but this thread seems to be very hypocritical.
> 
> @ Bulickeil Yes PETA are very much DO THIS, DON'T DO THAT etc. etc. which also annoys me greatly as it antagonises a lot of people and they lose would be followers but they also do a lot of good and put certain animal cruelty issues in the spotlight. Who else at the moment is fighting the inhumane production of Pate de Fois Gras and trying to get Fortnum and Mason to stop selling it? Now and again I give them a tenner but I also give to lots of other animal welfare charities too. PETA certainly seem to have plenty of celebrities who support them and fight their corner. Yes, they do some wrong things and have some strange ideas but they also do a lot more than you or I could ever do and make differences where you or I never could.
> 
> ...


I don't agree. I buy meat from a traditional butchers, who source their meat locally, the beef and sheep they have in the shop are from the surrounding fields, they go slightly further afield to find chicken and pork from animals that are raised to a high ethical standard. But even so, that's still much less of a distance than most people buy.

Whatever we consume, we consume a life, whether that's from an animal or plant. You can dress it up how you like, but just because something is cute, fluffy and doe eyed does that give it a greater right to life than another *life*? The only way we can become more ethical is in our lifestyle choices, whatever we eat, choosing to support local producers of food with high ethical standrds.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> I don't agree. I buy meat from a traditional butchers, who source their meat locally, the beef and sheep they have in the shop are from the surrounding fields, they go slightly further afield to find chicken and pork from animals that are raised to a high ethical standard. But even so, that's still much less of a distance than most people buy.
> 
> Whatever we consume, we consume a life, whether that's from an animal or plant. You can dress it up how you like, but just because something is cute, fluffy and doe eyed does that give it a greater right to life than another *life*? The only way we can become more ethical is in our lifestyle choices, whatever we eat, choosing to support local producers of food with high ethical standrds.


First of all I note from your website that you are engaged in blood sports (shooting) which may have influenced your line.

The old 'vegetarians 'kill' carrots therefore I can kill cows with a clear conscience' stance.
Slitting a cows throat and uprooting a carrot, not quite the same thing is it.

"Support local producers with high ethical standards". You come from Yorkshire I believe where the cows are wintered over for months in sheds because its too wet and cold for them to be outside, so not exactly the 'happily grazing in sunny meadows' idyll.

"Local producers with high ethical standards", like this one you mean...
Having the right diet to finishing beef this winter - 16/12/2010 - Farmers Weekly
They certainly care about the proverbial 'pounds, shillings and pence' and their profit margins, but I'm not getting the animal welfare bit. Indeed, they seem to have totally lost sight of the fact that their animals are sentient, ensouled beings.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

Canine K9 said:


> I eat meat but not fish. I'm allergic to some veggies and fruits and I hate the taste of them. I tried being a veggie but lost weight and hated meal times. So I eat meat purchased from a butcher with high welfare for the animals. But nothin is without suffering. If you buy your veg and grains some bunny has less food and dies because the veg and grain went for people that YOU bought.


Well yes, you probably would lose weight, there aren't animal fats in fruit, veg and grain. They always say "you'll never see a fat vegetarian". Although I'm sure someone will know one 

If you 'google' I think you'll find that a wild rabbits natural diet consists mainly of grass and leafy weeds. If you go up on the moors where there are thousands of rabbits, they are thriving with not a carrot or cabbage for miles and miles. I wouldn't worry, I really don't think wild rabbits will die from starvation caused by people eating veg or grain. The highest percentage of grain goes to feed animals for the meat industry. More rabbits are probably killed on the roads than by any other means. :sad:


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> First of all I note from your website that you are engaged in blood sports (shooting) which may have influenced your line.
> 
> The old 'vegetarians 'kill' carrots therefore I can kill cows with a clear conscience' stance.
> Slitting a cows throat and uprooting a carrot, not quite the same thing is it.
> ...


Some may have but not all.

My OH & I used to stay on a beef farm in Cornwall for our holiday. During several visits the farmer was up all night in the cold barn with his aniamls as they had been ill.

Maybe you think he was just protecting his investment but the look on his face after one of the calves had died during the night said otherwise.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> Some may have but not all.
> 
> My OH & I used to stay on a beef farm in Cornwall for our holiday. During several visits the farmer was up all night in the cold barn with his aniamls as they had been ill.
> 
> Maybe you think he was just protecting his investment but the look on his face after one of the calves had died during the night said otherwise.


There is the capacity for kindness, compassion and humanity in everyone, may take some digging in some cases, but it is there. Of such is the inspiration and fortitude of every spiritual teacher.

The farmer may well have been distressed to see the calf die before his eyes after battling to keep it alive... Though what happened to the other calves that didn't die? 
I suspect he kept them, separated them from their mothers, fattened them up and then packed them off to the slaughterhouse to sliced up for cuts of veal.

Sometimes I think I must have fallen and cracked my head. Can you not see the double standards there? Or is it just me?


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> There is the capacity for kindness, compassion and humanity in everyone, may take some digging in some cases, but it is there. Of such is the inspiration and fortitude of every spiritual teacher.
> 
> The farmer may well have been distressed to see the calf die before his eyes after battling to keep it alive... Though what happened to the other calves that didn't die?
> I suspect he kept them, separated them from their mothers, fattened them up and then packed them off to the slaughterhouse to sliced up for cuts of veal.
> ...


No, I can't see the double standards at all

The calves were reared & were slaughtered when they were old enough but that is what they were for. Caring for them & ensuring they were treated well during their life time is very important & whilst not all livestock is cared for in such high standards alot are.

As consumers we should be supporting farmers who do meet such high welfare standards not buying cheaper meat where the animals have suffered more in their lives.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> No, I can't see the double standards at all
> 
> The calves were reared & were slaughtered when they were old enough but that is what they were for. Caring for them & ensuring they were treated well during their life time is very important & whilst not all livestock is cared for in such high standards alot are.
> 
> As consumers we should be supporting farmers who do meet such high welfare standards not buying cheaper meat where the animals have suffered more in their lives.


I haven't read all the thread but wanted to pick up on this one post, if I may. As you know, I have recently moved to a more rural area and I am thrilled to see acres of fields containing free range pigs, with plenty of space and lots of little huts for shelter. Then I saw an equally large field yesterday, full of chickens. Now that is what I call free range, not squashed in a pen on a bit of grass or pecking outside by a main road where they can easily get run over and killed.

I eat meat; I can't help that, I detest vegetables, and I love full cream milk. I think it is all important that we notice the way the animal lived before buying.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

newfiesmum said:


> I haven't read all the thread but wanted to pick up on this one post, if I may. As you know, I have recently moved to a more rural area and I am thrilled to see acres of fields containing free range pigs, with plenty of space and lots of little huts for shelter. Then I saw an equally large field yesterday, full of chickens. Now that is what I call free range, not squashed in a pen on a bit of grass or pecking outside by a main road where they can easily get run over and killed.
> 
> I eat meat; I can't help that, I detest vegetables, and I love full cream milk. I think it is all important that we notice the way the animal lived before buying.


I used to pass several large fields with free range pigs when I was taking Toby for hydro sessions in Suffolk.

We used to stop off on the way back so I could say 'hello' to them


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

Cleo38 said:


> I used to pass several large fields with free range pigs when I was taking Toby for hydro sessions in Suffolk.
> 
> We used to stop off on the way back so I could say 'hello' to them


Well, it's a lovely sight. All creatures should live like that, no matter what their fate.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Cleo38 said:


> No, I can't see the double standards at all
> 
> The calves were reared & were slaughtered when they were old enough but that is what they were for. Caring for them & ensuring they were treated well during their life time is very important & whilst not all livestock is cared for in such high standards alot are.
> 
> As consumers we should be supporting farmers who do meet such high welfare standards not buying cheaper meat where the animals have suffered more in their lives.


If the farmer was genuinely distressed (on compassionate grounds) about the calf dying he would be equally distressed about the other calves going off to the slaughterhouse to be butchered. And if that was genuinely the case, he wouldn't do it.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'high welfare standards'. Whilst we've banned veal crates, most veal calves never feel the grass beneath their feet nor the sun on their back. None of them will see the year out and they'll all meet a terrifying end in the slaughterhouse.

But then 'you' eating the baby calf frees up the milk Nature intended for the baby calf for 'you' to drink. And when the mother cow is broken and worn out from producing baby calves and milk 'you' can eat her too.

'The best thing about being a vegan? Being able to look a cow in the eye and not feel ashamed'....


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> Well, it's a lovely sight. All creatures should live like that, no matter what their fate.


The Livestock Industry, with its reliance on factory farming and feedlots, is totally unsustainable at its present level. You'd need three more Planet Earth's to let all farmed animals 'live like that'.

We only have the one planet and we need to learn to take better care of it - and those we share it with.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

LynnM said:


> They always say "you'll never see a fat vegetarian". Although I'm sure someone will know one


Hah!  William Shatner - U can make a good guesstimate of when a photo was taken by eyeballing his girth.

I don't think Capt Kirk is a great actor; i do think he's a great guy - but he's been eating lacto-ovo veg 
for more than 30-years, at least, & has *always* struggled to control his weight.

Vegans find it easier to avoid gaining wt with age, but everyone has that problem, no matter what their diet.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> First of all I note from your website that you are engaged in blood sports (shooting) which may have influenced your line.
> 
> The old 'vegetarians 'kill' carrots therefore I can kill cows with a clear conscience' stance.
> Slitting a cows throat and uprooting a carrot, not quite the same thing is it.
> ...


If there was an award for sweeping generalisations I'd send it to you, first class.

Yes, I am involved with gundogs, I will be going out picking up this year with a couple of my dogs, and I will pluck and draw, as well as skin and gut my own meat. I don't baulk at raw meat or produce, if an animal has been reared and killed to be eaten, then I believe I owe it the respect to at least be able to handle and prepare it, and use as much as possible of it.

The butchers I use are one of the top butchers and graziers in the UK, they prepare all their own carcasses, and as I've said in a number of posts about them, they source their produce as ethically as possible, and support not just livestock producers, but local cheese makers, dairy products (Longley farm isn't too far from me) amongst many others, such as pickles, condiments etc.

Ok, so it's ok for you to raise a field full of vegetables, kill them all to eat them, grow some more etc, but it's not ok for me to eat animals that have been raised to a high ethical standard? I pay about £17 for an average weight chicken by the way, and I don't have a whippet, although I may invest in a flatcap to help keep my head warm when I'm out picking up.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

Knightofalbion said:


> If the farmer was genuinely distressed (on compassionate grounds) about the calf dying he would be equally distressed about the other calves going off to the slaughterhouse to be butchered. And if that was genuinely the case, he wouldn't do it.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by 'high welfare standards'. Whilst we've banned veal crates, most veal calves never feel the grass beneath their feet nor the sun on their back. None of them will see the year out and they'll all meet a terrifying end in the slaughterhouse.
> 
> ...


LOL, sorry but I would never dream of looking a cow in the eye & feeling shame regardless of when I was vegan or now


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Knightofalbion said:


> The Livestock Industry, with its reliance on factory farming and feedlots, is totally unsustainable at its present level. You'd need three more Planet Earth's to let all farmed animals 'live like that'.
> 
> We only have the one planet and we need to learn to take better care of it - and those we share it with.


I live in rural aberdeenshire.......plenty free range farm animals everywhere I look from sheep to deer to hens and then cows.

It would be total suicide to keep cows up here outside during winter and in heavy snowy weather, sheep need to come down to lower pasture and better shelter but not kept indoors.These animals all need feeding.

I think awareness is what is needed but even so, plenty people will still always go for the cheaper meat cos thats what they want to pay for or all they can afford.

My husband is a beef farmer and I have sat up many nights with sickly animals and been very upset when they didn;t make it.

When a finished beast goes to slaughter at an age not determined by me anymore and it is in its prime, we did our job well.

Whilst any farm animal is with us...if it goes for slaughter or for breeding, it was looked after to the best of my ability and had everything it needed when it needed it.

We don;t have sheep any more cos I won;t sell for halal.sorry if that offends anybody but once the animal leaves the farm I have no more control over it.

Female calves usually go for beef breeding but of course will eventually end up in the slaughter house. Occasionally bulls go for breeding but generally they go for slaughter.

I can only choose a slaughterhouse for a home kill.....once the animal is sold I have no control at all.

If we would need 3 more planet earths to accommodate all these animals then there is no way we could have all of them living like they do on old macdonalds farm.

And, I am veggie but not vegan.cos I don't like the taste of meat.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

forgot to mention pigs...pigs are free range in pig huts all over the countryside and well meaning but uninformed people moan that they are cold in winter....cos they know nothing about pigs and pig husbandry


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

and what would distress a farmer who does care about his stock is that a dead calf is a shame cos it had no chance of life. The loss of revenue is totally secondary.

I know more good farmers than bad ones but unfortunately I know a couple of people who shouldn;t be allowed fleas.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> forgot to mention pigs...pigs are free range in pig huts all over the countryside and well meaning but uninformed people moan that they are cold in winter....cos they know nothing about pigs and pig husbandry


The butchers I use source their pork from a pig farmer near York; it's the closest one they could find that will handle the volume and the ethical standards. I must admit, where I live isn't possibly the best place for pig husbandry, grouse moors, 20 foot snow drifts etc.... in summer (only kidding)...........


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Plenty good pig farmers in and around York and Yorkshire.Plenty kept outdoors with shelter all year round.

I hate animal abuse.

So much red tape rearing animals but once they leave the land you have no control at all.

Our cows are free range from march to november weather permitting and then indoors all winter with plenty ventilation and plenty feed and bedding and its a lot of hard work.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> Plenty good pig farmers in and around York and Yorkshire.Plenty kept outdoors with shelter all year round.
> 
> I hate animal abuse.
> 
> ...


The cattle and sheep we have from the local butchers are the same, we have local mutton on special offer at the moment as well. I just wish people would stop buying from supermarkets and support good butchers.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> We don;t have sheep any more cos I won;t sell for halal.sorry if that offends anybody but once the animal leaves the farm I have no more control over it.
> 
> GOOD FOR YOU, I DON'T BLAME YOU,THEY HAVE AN EVEN MORE HORRIFIC DEATH. :sad:
> 
> If we would need 3 more planet earths to accommodate all these animals then there is no way we could have all of them living like they do on old macdonalds farm .


I think Knightofalbion meant we would need 3 planets for them all to live free range and not imprisoned in factory farms which I think something like 80% of the worlds meat animals are. :sad:


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Its hard not selling to a supermarket.
I am not allowed to sell my beef to anybody, it has to be sold live, just not worth all the expense and hassle getting sorted to sell to the public.

Once I put my beast to a sale, thats it......and it goes to the highest bidder which is usually the supermarkets or very rarely these days to a small butcher.

I buy most of my meat(other than beef) from an independent butcher but have to admit that I buy chicken from tesco .mainly cos there isn't anywhere locally other than a supermarket.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

LynnM said:


> I think Knightofalbion meant we would need 3 planets for them all to live free range and not imprisoned in factory farms which I think something like 80% of the worlds meat animals are. :sad:


I think so too and I do believe that farmstock should be free range but its not practical in winter in such a cold country.

Our cows are in pens of 10 in barns that are fully open at one end for ventilation. They have straw beds that are cleaned out regularly. they get fed what is called straights........mixed grains mixed with sugar beet and barley. We don;t feed pellets.They are on ad lib hay..and they always eat the straw aswell.

some people are always going to eat meat.

You can't always get it perfect but you can try to ensure the animals have everything they need and live stress free and the slaughterhouses do their jobs properly too.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

lilythepink said:


> Its hard not selling to a supermarket.
> I am not allowed to sell my beef to anybody, it has to be sold live, just not worth all the expense and hassle getting sorted to sell to the public.
> 
> Once I put my beast to a sale, thats it......and it goes to the highest bidder which is usually the supermarkets or very rarely these days to a small butcher.
> ...


It's hard not to, and if you don't have a good butchers who support you and are willing to take on your stock, then you have to sell at market. The butchers I use have numerous farmers who they support, but they not only have the fabulous range of traditional butchers cuts, and new recipes, but they also make their own pies and pasties etc. They even do their own scotch eggs, which are fabulous


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> If there was an award for sweeping generalisations I'd send it to you, first class.
> 
> Yes, I am involved with gundogs, I will be going out picking up this year with a couple of my dogs, and I will pluck and draw, as well as skin and gut my own meat. I don't baulk at raw meat or produce, if an animal has been reared and killed to be eaten, then I believe I owe it the respect to at least be able to handle and prepare it, and use as much as possible of it.
> 
> ...


Sweeping generalisations? Yes but you were the one who levelled slitting a cow's throat to uprooting a carrot. Not exactly the same thing is it. Cows, as all animals, are sentient ensouled beings. If someone were to shoot dead all your dogs I somehow doubt you'd liken it to someone chopping down a few plants.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you go shooting because you enjoy it. Getting a free meal out if it is a 'perk'. And 'ethical'? A 'sport' in my book is a fair, equal, honourable contest against a WILLING opponent. Shooting is none of those things.

True, cheap meat always involves inhumane housing, often involves mutilation and inevitably means a life expectancy of only weeks. Though as we've already established even the higher end of the market does not always mean 'grass and sunshine'. And both forms end in violent death.

The only truly 'ethical' option, where we have choice - and we DO have a choice - is to shun the ways of bloodshed and slaughter. We are not savages.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Knightofalbion said:


> Sweeping generalisations? Yes but you were the one who levelled slitting a cow's throat to uprooting a carrot. Not exactly the same thing is it. Cows, as all animals, are sentient ensouled beings. If someone were to shoot dead all your dogs I somehow doubt you'd liken it to someone chopping down a few plants.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but you go shooting because you enjoy it. Getting a free meal out if it is a 'perk'. And 'ethical'? A 'sport' in my book is a fair, equal, honourable contest against a WILLING opponent. Shooting is none of those things.
> 
> ...


You are wrong yes, in pretty much all of your post actually.

You are saying I'm equating slitting a cows throat to digging up a carrot. In actual fact, I equated eating vegetables, which are living things, to eating animals, which are living things. I didn't mention your preferred method of killing.

I don't go shooting, I don't have a shotgun or any other form of gun, I go picking up and beating with or without my dogs. And it's not free, we're lucky if any money is handed out if it covers the fuel, but yes, I enjoy it, and generally speaking it's the guns who are given a brace of birds, not the workers. Thankfully I have my own sources for game. Shooting is hunting for food, nothing more natural than that really, the birds/ground game have a much better chance of getting away, and a much more humane death than the vast majority of stuff sat on the supermarket shelves, or that you can buy from the local drive through - which I never do.

I choose to eat a wide variety of meat and vegetables from a source where I perhaps pay a premium, but I'm supporting, as much as possible, ethical practices. If (going by your argument) NOTHING should suffer and die, the only true option would be not to eat anything at all, but then you would suffer and die, so it's a bit of a catch 22 really.


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> You are wrong yes, in pretty much all of your post actually.
> 
> You are saying I'm equating slitting a cows throat to digging up a carrot. In actual fact, I equated eating vegetables, which are living things, to eating animals, which are living things. I didn't mention your preferred method of killing.
> 
> ...


I tried so hard to keep out of this thread lol

Theres a huge difference in shooting what you need for the pot & being involved in managed shoots. Game birds are first and foremost 'targets' that some are eaten is secondary. Then theres the environmental impacts of 'managing' these birds & of the poisonous lead shot used to kill them polluting the land. I accept some smaller shoots may be beneficial to some wildlife, but there nothing ethical or eco-friendly about the large ones nor the Grouse moors. This year for the 1st time since 1960 & as a direct consequence of persecution by grouse moors, the charismatic hen harrier failed to breed. Shameful.

How can you compare vegetable with sentient animal? Just like you, they have a central nervous system. Do you sincerely believe that a carrot 'suffers' in the same way you would?

.

.


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

So what about the animals that die so we can enjoy vegetables/grains, etc? The farmers in the area I live allow people to shoot rabbits who are considered pests & damage crops. 

There may be a deer cull soon as they are also causing alot of damage & rats are regularly shot/trapped/poisoned as they are pests around the storage areas. So in reality the produce even though isn't an animals body it will still involve the deaths of animals


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Cleo38 said:


> So what about the animals that die so we can enjoy vegetables/grains, etc? The farmers in the area I live allow people to shoot rabbits who are considered pests & damage crops.
> 
> There may be a deer cull soon as they are also causing alot of damage & rats are regularly shot/trapped/poisoned as they are pests around the storage areas. So in reality the produce even though isn't an animals body it will still involve the deaths of animals


Its a pity many farmers don't work with nature - Foxes & other predators do a fantastic job keeping down rabbit & rodent populations.

I suppose its the lesser of two evils. Farming livestock is unsustainable and it is one of the greatest threats to our planet.

Livestock a major threat to environment

.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> How can you compare vegetable with sentient animal? Just like you, they have a central nervous system. Do you sincerely believe that a carrot 'suffers' in the same way you would?


That's it exactly. Animals have a soul; they have a heart; they experience emotions - love, friendship, tenderness, loyalty, joy, sorrow, jealousy, fear and grief; they feel pain - physical and mental; their maternal love bond is the same as any human mother...

Qualities exemplified by your own pets in front of your eyes, if proof were needed.

Carnivorous animals, like cats and dogs, are slaves to their nature. 
We have a higher nature. Man was created to be the 'sanctuary of love and justice', the guardians of Creation, not to hurt and kill.

As I said there are aspects of the food chain over which we have no control, but you do have full control over what you put in your mouth. 
Where there is a choice, and we do have the choice, we should be mindful of what we are inflicting upon others (or getting others to inflict in your name because you don't have the stomach to do it yourself) and shun the 'fruits' of violence, bloodshed and slaughter.

Hundreds of millions of people around the world (over 400 million in India alone) are living happy, healthy lives on a vegetarian or vegan diet.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

noushka05 said:


> How can you compare vegetable with sentient animal? Just like you, they have a central nervous system. Do you sincerely believe that a carrot 'suffers' in the same way you would?
> .


How many people wouldn't think twice if asked to uproot vegetables for their dinner but would be horrified if asked to slit the throat of a cow or lamb to go with said vegetables? So for people suggesting they suffer the same, ask yourself this question..." If you had the choice, would you rather uproot a carrot or slit the throat of a sentient creature?". I know what the vast majority would answer.

I don't particularly know what would happen to vegetables if they were not picked but trees will drop their fruit and grow more the following year. If their fruit is picked rather than being allowed to go to waste on the ground the tree does not die but will still grow bigger and produce more fruit the following year, unlike an animal. You can argue that an animal will have young who will grow the following year but that is another animal whereas the tree remains the same.

And what about evolution, to survive, prey and predator evolve to outwit and escape or run faster and ambush. So why have carrots not yet evolved to escape?
You may reply that they hide underground but what rabbit or other underground dwelling creature hides underground with it's bum still in the air?
"Here I am, come and get me".

Animals for the meat industry cannot escape because we imprison them from birth.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Not so many years ago people would go and kill their own dinner and think nothing of it. We only don;t think too hard about where meat comes from now cos its all nicely wrapped in plastic in a supermarket.

and, I think using the term slitting an animals throat is aimed at a reaction only......they are supposed to be stunned first and then either hit with a bolt or their throats cut./slit.

Its interesting on youtube etc they only seem to want to show the horrific sights from a slaughter house.are there any bits where it is done properly?


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

I haven't read every post, but do I understand that someone has compared digging up a carrot to killing an animal for meat? Really? Even Hari Krishnas eat vegetables and don't consider that they are killing them. These are the people who will not put a pet to sleep humanely, but would rather let it suffer with some horrific disease because they don't believe in killing anything. They won't even kill a virus, but they have to eat don't they?

How absurd.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

newfiesmum said:


> I haven't read every post, but do I understand that someone has compared digging up a carrot to killing an animal for meat? Really? Even Hari Krishnas eat vegetables and don't consider that they are killing them. These are the people who will not put a pet to sleep humanely, but would rather let it suffer with some horrific disease because they don't believe in killing anything. They won't even kill a virus, but they have to eat don't they?
> 
> How absurd.


I certainly didn't, I did however point out that both plants and animals are both alive, and so therefore, you are still killing something to survive.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

There is not one person posting on this thread who isn't a hypocrite, to a greater or lesser extent according to their own beliefs. The way we live, our modern lifestyle causes suffering to animals, humans and yes, also plants. The only real way to stop humans from mistreating the whole planet, would be for humans to cease existing.

As far as shooting and hunting goes, there will always be people who don't understand it, will trot out the same tired old excuses because they refuse to believe that anyone involved with shooting or hunting for their own food, willing to despatch an animal, prepare the corpse to eat etc, can be anything but evil. There are good and bad people involved with shooting and hunting, the same as there are good and bad people involved with animal *rights*.

I've never come across one compelling argument to make me think of becoming a vegetarian while I can support a good local butchers and have access to game. I've also come across no compelling evidence that shooting is harmful to wildlife in this modern day and age. I've come across countless sweeping generalisations that all gamekeepers simply persecute wildlife out of existence, which is simply untrue, a very small number have been convicted, it's a bit like saying all men must be rapists because a small percentage are. And I realise that term may offend some sensibilities, but I am continually offended by the absolute rubbish spouted by people who judge me and others by their own beliefs, without any actual evidence, they just *believe* someone else's opinions, and any set of figures that backs up what they *believe*.

I eat animals, and I'm happy with that decision, I have been vegetarian and I chose to carry on eating meat. I'm happy with the lifestyle choices I make, if others aren't, that's their problem, not mine.

:cornut:


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Whatever we consume, we consume a life, whether that's from an animal or plant. You can dress it up how you like, but just because something is cute, fluffy and doe eyed does that give it a greater right to life than another *life*?


Comparing the killing of an animal (e.g. a cow) with the harvesting of a plant (e.g. a carrot) ...


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

lilythepink said:


> Not so many years ago people would go and kill their own dinner and think nothing of it. We only don;t think too hard about where meat comes from now cos its all nicely wrapped in plastic in a supermarket.
> 
> THAT WAS PROBABLY AROUND THE SAME TIME PEOPLE THOUGHT BLACK PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE SOULS AND COULD BE USED AS SLAVES AND ALSO THE TIME IT WAS THOUGHT THAT WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE SOULS.  THANKFULLY WE HAVE PROGRESSED FROM THAT.
> 
> ...


Slitting an animals throat is what it is, why dress it up to look any prettier. Yes they are SUPPOSED to be stunned first but thousands aren't so lucky. It's a massive industry and corners are cut and many workers are not properly trained and in doing so many animals regain consciousness whilst being butchered. And for those animals their end must be torturous as they are fully aware of what is happening to them. Can you imagine what that must be like?
I saw a video of a pig that that happened to, it hadn't been stunned properly, pigs and lambs are electrically stunned. It thrashed about in fear so much whilst hanging by it's hind leg that it crashed to the floor. Was it re-stunned? No, it was hung back up like a piece of laundry that hadn't been pegged on the line properly and had fallen.

The EU Scientific Veterinary Committee estimate that up to 10% of cattle are not stunned effectively. One might not consider 10% to be a lot but when you consider that to be approx. 230,000 animals in the UK alone, that is disgraceful. These animals experience the pain of being shot in the head and will either be stunned again or continue on for knifing whilst conscious.

An interval between stunning and knifing can be as high as 70 seconds for sheep, the average being 21 seconds. Sheep can take an average of 14 seconds to lose brain responsiveness if both carotid arteries are cut. UK law only requires one to be cut and in this case sheep take an average of 70 seconds to lose brain responsiveness. Yet an electric stun only lasts for 20 to 40 seconds. It is estimated that 4 million sheep a year in the UK may regain consciousness before they die and will therefore be skinned alive.

Research has shown that 36% of electric tong placements do not span the brain as required by law. 13% of pigs are stunned on the snout and jaws which does not guarantee unconsciousness. Approximately 1 million pigs a year in the UK will regain consciousness before they die of blood loss and 125,000 pigs a year will not be stunned at all because of this.

There probably aren't any videos of correctly done slaughter because there's not a problem with that so people won't be interested. I think the horrific videos are to show that in fact all animals are not slaughtered humanely as we would wish to believe. The thing is though, slaughter and humane can never really be used in the same sentence. Even if it is killed quickly, it has probably suffered through fear since arriving at the slaughterhouse until it finally meets it's demise.


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## Knightofalbion (Jul 3, 2012)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> As far as shooting and hunting goes, there will always be people who don't understand it, will trot out the same tired old excuses because they refuse to believe that anyone involved with shooting or hunting for their own food, willing to despatch an animal, prepare the corpse to eat etc, can be anything but evil.
> 
> I've also come across no compelling evidence that shooting is harmful to wildlife in this modern day and age.


To help the unenlightened 'understand it' a bit better

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/pheasant/

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/booklets/gunningforchildrenreport.pdf

"I've come across no compelling evidence that shooting is harmful to wildlife"... A candidate for quote of the year.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

personally i have no problem with hunting or eating a nice rare steak... each to their own


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

newfiesmum said:


> I haven't read every post, but do I understand that someone has compared digging up a carrot to killing an animal for meat? Really? Even Hari Krishnas eat vegetables and don't consider that they are killing them. These are the people who will not put a pet to sleep humanely, but would rather let it suffer with some horrific disease because they don't believe in killing anything. They won't even kill a virus, but they have to eat don't they?
> 
> How absurd.


I think most vegetarians/ vegans will find that disgraceful. To end the life of an animal that is suffering and in pain is totally different to ending the life of an animal who is perfectly healthy and does not want it's life to end. :sad:

Although another line of thought is that we also allow our own kind to suffer when they want to be allowed to die with dignity because it is thought wrong to help them to die.


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## newfiesmum (Apr 21, 2010)

LynnM said:


> I think most vegetarians/ vegans will find that disgraceful. To end the life of an animal that is suffering and in pain is totally different to ending the life of an animal who is perfectly healthy and does not want it's life to end. :sad:
> 
> Although another line of thought is that we also allow our own kind to suffer when they want to be allowed to die with dignity because it is thought wrong to help them to die.


I think if we can pts pets that are too ill and are suffering, we can certainly do the same for humans. I know I would rather be dead than have alzheimers, for instance, and my brother-in-law faded away with cancer last year for months before he finally died. He said on many occasions that he was ready to go, that he wanted to go as there was no hope of a recovery. But he is human, not a pet, so it could not be done.

But the Hari Krishna woman I spoke to proudly told me how she nursed her dog through cancer because they don't believe in killing anything. Sounds bizarre to me.


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## LynnM (Feb 21, 2012)

I've just realised that this thread is now running concurrently with a new thread entitled 'Saved from the illegal meat industry'.

This will be interesting. How many people who don't have a problem with animals over here being slaughtered in their millions for meat do have a problem with other cultures and what they like to eat. Remember, the dog meat industry is only illegal because so many westerners have protested about it.
Just a thought.


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## Dingle (Aug 29, 2008)

Although I wouldn't eat my own dogs or my daughters Pony...Eating dog or horse would not be a problem for me if it were purely bred for eating IE plump and juicy... then of course all it needs is marketing correctly and a good seasoning. 

Lets face a lot of folk have eaten horse meat unknowingly... if it were correctly marketed it could provide a good source of meat to those who find a good lamb or beef joint rather expensive


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

> Sleeping_Lion said:
> 
> 
> > I certainly didn't, I did however point out that both plants and animals are both alive, and so therefore, you are still killing something to survive.
> ...


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## noushka05 (Mar 28, 2008)

Knightofalbion said:


> To help the unenlightened 'understand it' a bit better
> 
> Animal Aid: Pheasant and partridge shooting
> 
> ...


LOL theres non so blind as those as who will not see.

.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Absolutely think it should be exposed and heavy fines imposed for people who are cruel. But....not everybody in this line of work gets a kick out of cruelty.

Plenty legislation to cover all this..from the farm to the transporter to the man on the ground in the slaughterhouse to the man with the gun.

My husband drives HGVs transporting animals.......to sales and to slaughterhouses. He trained as a driver, then HGV, took years ......more training to drive animals etc. More training on animal welfare and law regarding it.

Not once has he ever been asked to produce any documentation to support any of this.

Everything up here in northern scotland is on a small scale, not the factory slughterhouses as in other places, if it has to be done, smaller seems better for animal welfare.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

I have no problems with killing one for the pot at all.....even though I don;t eat meat.

Killing pheasant isn't killing 1 for the pot.........its people going for a weekend away and having a good time and shooting anything that moves or flies.

Pheasant are reared without a mother and released then flushed towards a gun....they are so used to interacting with people that when they are scared or hear people, they walk towards them cos they don;t know any better.

Our roads are full of dead and dying pheasant all year round, They have no sense. Other birds hide from people.

This is totally different to farm reared animals and cruelty in slaughterhouses.

We have too many deer, they need culling to more reasonable numbers...they starve to death in harsh winters. If they are culled, don;t see why the meat should be wasted..thats criminal......even though I personally wouldn't eat it.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

We are more or less retired from stock farming now.certainly what we have left isn't considered a viable business. 

All our animals...whether for the pot or for breeding or just as pets...have always and will always be well looked after.

None of our animals have ever lived in horrific conditions, they have always had what they needed when they needed it.

They have all been turned out to grass for most of the year.

I know plenty more farmers and smallholders who are like minded. I also have met quite a few that are disgusting yet their husbandry falls within limits of the law.....which has been frustrating.

You are never going to get over to a cruel person what they are doing is wrong and immoral, you may convert the odd misguided one but someone genuinely with a slate short does't give a damn about anything else but himself.

This topic is an age old one, there is no solution to this. The farmer thinks all veggies are the loony left brigade, the veggie thinks all farmers are cruel and unfeeling and torture their animals.

Because my animals were always looked after very well, I commanded the highest prices at breeding sales. I commanded the highest prices at beef sales.I took great pride in the condition of my animals.

No point in my continuing on this thread.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Dingle said:


> Although I wouldn't eat my own dogs or my daughters Pony...Eating dog or horse would not be a problem for me if it were purely bred for eating IE plump and juicy... then of course all it needs is marketing correctly and a good seasoning.
> 
> Lets face a lot of folk have eaten horse meat unknowingly... if it were correctly marketed it could provide a good source of meat to those who find a good lamb or beef joint rather expensive


lol.love your outlook on life.

If horse beef were readily available and labelled correctly in this country too, it would very quickly rise to a hefty premium.

Celebrity chefs have all done their thing re cheaper cuts of meat etc and as soon as they promote something we would normally only give to the dog etc then it gets more expensive than a steak.


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## lilythepink (Jul 24, 2013)

Horses. I have had horses all my life, they are my passion.I am 52 years old and still have 6 which are with me til they die.

We are not geared up for slaughtering horses in this country, most non horsey people were probably horrified with the stuff earlier this year re horse in the food chain etc.

This is a whole new hornets nest cos horses.like dogs.are pets.Cows generally aren't pets.

We need a means for disposing of horses which need.....just like any other pet/animal.

I think the level of cruelty towards horses in this country is far greater than any other animal.


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