# What are the pros and cons of clicker training?



## lucyandsandy (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't know how to search previous threads so sorry if this has been asked before. As the title if there are any pro's and con's or would you recommend clicker training?


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Timing has to be spot on, to mark the behaviour you want, so if you've got cr*p timing, it can be difficult to master.

Also, if you're training a dog to hold/retrieve, the click can pre-empt a spit reaction, if you're not careful, as the dog spits the object to get the treat. Again, timing is all important, I wouldn't use clicker training to train a retrieve, as I think it's so easy to muck up for that reason


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## Cleo38 (Jan 22, 2010)

I've not really experienced any negatives with this. I got Toby (my first dog) last January & found clicker training amazing. He had no obedience training previously (he was a rescue dog) & I was a first time dog owner.

I found the key was ensuring you got the click spot on to mark the correct behaviour & rewarded immediately. I used to (& still do) watch alot of Kikopup training clips on Youtube which are great.

You can use food rewards (which I mainly do) or toys - whatever motivates your dog. 

The only negative I have found is that I'm forever losing clickers  so I'm always having to buy a few to keep around the house.


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## lucysnewmum (Feb 25, 2010)

as with all forms of training clicker training is loved by some, loathed by others.

in my experience - THE PROS are that clicker training marks EXACTLY the action that is required of the dog,promptly followed by a reward. THE CONS are that the trainer requires EXCELLENT TIMING SKILLS to mark the EXACT ACTION. a one second delay in the click can result in the wrong action being marked and the dog gets confused. I have also found that SOME nervous dogs can be AFRAID of the clicker noise - which has a negative effect on the training. Another negative effect of clicker training is that the dog can become too used to food/toy treats and refuse to perform without them as they see no point.

I advise anyone to only use food/toy reward for the first one or two sessions with the clicker and then replace the reward with a vocal affirmation!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

lucysnewmum said:


> THE PROS are that clicker training marks EXACTLY the action that is required of the dog, promptly followed by a reward.
> 
> THE CONS are that the trainer requires EXCELLENT TIMING SKILLS to mark the EXACT ACTION.
> a one second delay in the click can result in the wrong action being marked and the dog gets confused.


it's not that terrifying, :lol: yes, timing is important - but just like the dog, we can learn better & do better.

practicing a little hand/eye co-ordination out of earshot of the dog is very helpful. 
if U click the wrong-instant of behavior, Don't worry! reward the dog anyway - it was Your Error, not theirs - 
and just try to avoid marking it again. Being unmarked & unrewarded, it will fade away. 



leashedForLife said:


> free beginning-clicker lessons:
> Canis Clicker Academy: Clicker training
> give them a first-name + and e-addy, a link arrives by e-mail daily for a week;
> each one-page lesson builds on prior lessons.
> ...


fading the food rewards is not complex, either; food rewards are decreased as the clicker is decreased, 
when the behavior is growing reliable & can be cued - when the dog does the behavior 4 times of 5 cues, 
start randomizing the reward, or replace the treats with a toy [tug or chase/fetch], or praise, or...

*real-life rewards* can be used anytime we have the chance to work training into everyday life: 
ask for a behavior, dog complies, OPEN THE DOOR / put down the dinner / clip on the leash, _____ . 


lucysnewmum said:


> ...the dog can become too used to food/toy treats and refuse to perform without them as they see no point.


nobody feeds the dog a treat every bloody time s/he sits, for the rest of that dog's life. :lol:

randomized rewards - coming at unexpected moments, OR for better response [merit] 
actually make behaviors more reliable than a constant, unvarying reward - which gets boring. 

i've taught kids as young as 8 or 9-YO to train with a clicker; i've also taught disabled adults. 
it's not rocket-surgery.  and it's fun - from day 1, lesson 1, which is a huge motivator.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Been thinking about this one on and off this evening, and I haven't used clicker training for probably about four years, but my dogs will instantly know what's afoot should a clicker appear. Is this good, or do I want them to work things out a little more for themselves?

There are some things that can't be taught by clicker, one thing that springs to mind is marking skills. I can't think of a way the action of marking correctly could be marked with a clicker, but it's something I 'encourage' with my dogs, and when I challenge their marking, I make sure it's achievable. 

Just in case you're not sure what marking is, it's the dogs ability to accurately *note* where an object is they are meant to retrieve, they have either just seen it thrown there, or seen it thrown/dropped earlier. Hope that makes sense.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

I firmly believe the pros far outweigh the cons when it comes to clicker training.

Pros:

Gives you much more precise timing, compared to using rewards on their own without a marker.

Gives an unmistakable, clear signal to the dog - unlike verbal markers / praise which often vary in wording / tone / pitch etc. For example, there is no point trying to use "good dog" to makr a correct behaviour, when you tell your dog how good he is 100 times a day at other times! The click sounds the same every time, is only ever heard in that particular context (training) and always, without fail, means the same thing.

It is not affected by mood! Similar to above really - sometimes it can be hard to praise a dog in a believable way if you are in a bad mood, particularly if the dog is responsible. What you try to say as praise may well come out neutral or even punishing. With a clicker, you don't have to worry about your mood.

The clear signal and accurate timing often makes clicker training much faster than methods that do not use an accurate marker. This is because for the dog to associate a behaviour with a consequence, the consequence has to occur as closely as possible (in time) to the behaviour - preferably whilst the behaviour is being performed. The shorter the time lag, the quicker the dog gets the idea, the faster he learns.

It is totally safe, humane, and fun for the dog. The dog usually loves training and learning new behaviours, trying to earn a click. This method actively encourages the dog to try new behaviours (which is great when you want to teach a new cue), as opposed to correction based methods which can make dogs nervous of trying new behaviours for fear of punishment.

Cons:

It takes good timing. However, this can be picked up relatively easily. As others have said, practice your timing before you start training, out of earshot of the dog. A couple of good ways - bounce a ball and try to click at the moment the ball reaches its highest point / hits the floor, or watch tv and try to click every time you hear someone say the word "and". 

It's something else to hold. Some people do struggle at times to handle a clicker, lead, treats, etc at the same time. Again, this often comes down to practice - you do get used to it. It can also help to start teaching new cues off lead in the house / garden so you have one less thing tol hold. Or slip the lead round your wrist. Plenty of ways around it.

Some sound sensitive dogs can be spooked by the noise. This can be overcome by desensitising them to it (which should happen automatically as you "load" the clicker initially anyway). You can also buy come clickers with some volume control, or muffle it in a glove / pocket etc. If the dog really can't stand the noise, you can apply the same principle using a different marker (such as a click to operpate biro, or a verbal marker if you are careful).

You need to know how clicker training works. This sounds obvious, but a lot of people jump to conclusions and get it wrong, then wonder why it doesn't sem to work. The click is used to mark a correct behaviour, and indicate that a reward is coming. You NEVER click at any other time - never click and not reward, never click as a cue, never click to get the dogs attention etc. On the same note, the clicker is used to teach new behaviours. As soon as the dog understands and responds to the cue, you stop clicking every time and use an intermittent reward schedule. By doing this you can also shape (improve) behaviours, by only clicking for the best responses (e.g. the fastest, the straightest, etc).


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

So Collette, not picking on you, but intrigued to hear how you would go about clicker training marking ability? Do you think it's possible? Imagine the dog has to mark a dummy that's fired a few hundred yards away, how do you clicker train the reward into that?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...how you would go about clicker training marking ability? Do you think it's possible?


Amazon.com: Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds (9781890948337): Jim Barry, Mary Emmen: Books

go to "search inside" & type in 'marking' - there are 5 results to read. :001_smile:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> Amazon.com: Positive Gun Dogs: Clicker Training for Sporting Breeds (9781890948337): Jim Barry, Mary Emmen: Books
> 
> go to "search inside" & type in 'marking' - there are 5 results to read. :001_smile:


My search didn't come up with one, except an Index I'm afraid


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> So Collette, not picking on you, but intrigued to hear how you would go about clicker training marking ability? Do you think it's possible? Imagine the dog has to mark a dummy that's fired a few hundred yards away, how do you clicker train the reward into that?


Via shaping? Clicking and treating for voluntary eye contact on that particular object, before given the run out/release command?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> My search didn't come up with one, except an Index I'm afraid


pages 24, 61, 72, 74 & 102. :thumbsup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Via shaping? Clicking and treating for voluntary eye contact on that particular object, before given the run out/release command?


How do you know the dog associates eye contact with the click reward, as a reward for marking an object?



leashedForLife said:


> pages 24, 61, 72, 74 & 102. :thumbsup:


Thank you LFL, will have a look, although I fear my browser isn't as quick as yours.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How do you know the dog associates eye contact with the click reward, as a reward for marking an object?


Because the behaviour will become more frequent after more rewards. I may be getting the wrong idea of the desired behaviour, though.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> Because the behaviour will become more frequent after more rewards. I may be getting the wrong idea of the desired behaviour, though.


How do you know a dog has correctly marked a 200m retrieve, it could have been looking 20m ahead, and you click and reward? There's no way I can see you could possibly associate and use the clicker method to reward a correct mark? Not from how I understand how it works, although I'm open to learning anything new!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> How do you know a dog has correctly marked a 200m retrieve, [s/he] could have been
> looking 20m ahead, and you click and reward? There's no way I can see you could possibly... use the clicker method
> to reward a correct mark? Not from how I understand how it works, although I'm open to learning anything new!


this is a technical question for someone who's done it - i'd try the gundog forum.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> this is a technical question for someone who's done it - i'd try the gundog forum.


So you've no idea how that could be achieved with a clicker? I know it's something that can be taught, but I've never seen a clicker incorporated, more just repetition of the same exercise.

Terry, yes, perhaps it is for the gundog forum, but the general question was asked in this section, and it got me thinking about the various aspects of clicker training, apolgoies if that rattled your cage, maybe I'll ask my friend Natasha if she's heard of something similar


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...perhaps it is for the gundog forum, but the general question was asked in this section,
> and it got me thinking about the various aspects of clicker training, [apologies if that rattled your cage...


i know folks who use clicker to shape agility, Schutzhund, competition-obedience, etc, 
but i have *not* used a clicker or competed in those disciplines - so i'd refer to someone who has. :yesnod:

i've used a clicker to shape novel behaviors, teach assistance-dog tasks, for B-Mod, basic manners, etc - 
and for *those* i'd be confident offering suggestions, since i've done that.

a clicker [or other marker] can be used in many imaginable & even unimaginable ways - 
teaching a diabetic chimp to offer their arm for blood-tests or for insulin injections is IMO 
pretty unimaginable, but it's been done predictably & reliably.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> i know folks who use clicker to shape agility, Schutzhund, competition-obedience, etc,
> but i have *not* used a clicker or competed in those disciplines - so i'd refer to someone who has. :yesnod:
> 
> i've used a clicker to shape novel behaviors, teach assistance-dog tasks, for B-Mod, basic manners, etc -
> ...


The bit I struggle seeing how it can be used in this instance, is marking something that you can't ascertain. A dog can mark a retrieve over several hundred metres, so how do you know it's marked the right object? And when you ask a dog to 'mark' you ask it to commit to memory, as it may not be sent for it straight away, that's a very difficult one to think about even starting to use a clicker reward based technique?


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> pages 24, 61, 72, 74 & 102. :thumbsup:


also under "mark", pages 22, 59, 63, 66, 70, 73, 85, 95, 96, 100 & 108. :thumbsup:


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> also under "mark", pages 22, 59, 63, 66, 70, 73, 85, 95, 96, 100 & 108. :thumbsup:


Can't believe you've got the time to note down every single page that mentions 'mark' but not discuss the theory behind it? Never mind, off to bed, better things to do!


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> Can't believe you've got the time to note down every single page that mentions 'mark'


because they list them in the left-hand margin for ya? :lol: 


Sleeping_Lion said:


> ...but not discuss the theory behind it?
> Never mind, off to bed, better things to do!


 why would *i* want to read it? i'm not teaching a gundog to mark a fall... 
*you* wanted to know how to use a clicker to help train a dog to mark, right? :lol:


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

YouTube - ‪An Introduction to Clicker Training‬‏

Pet Forums Community - View Single Post - Clicker Training


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## RobD-BCactive (Jul 1, 2010)

lucyandsandy said:


> I don't know how to search previous threads so sorry if this has been asked before. As the title if there are any pro's and con's or would you recommend clicker training?


Clicker training can help teach new things, or sharpen up revising things the dog's already learnt like basic obedience, helping ensure the dog really understands what it's being rewarded for.

It's great when you want precise timing. I like the fact that the dog understands a reward is earnt, so there's less fumbling due to haste on treating.

You can use it when you want to, having a clicker doesn't mean you *have* to use it all the time or even regularly.

Cons, are the hand coordination needed and timing required to reward precisely. If you're luring a behaviour, then you have quite a lot going on simulataneously. Some dogs react fearfully to the click, best start with it on a quiet setting or if it's not adjustable muffle with some tape.


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

leashedForLife said:


> because they list them in the left-hand margin for ya? :lol:
> 
> why would *i* want to read it? i'm not teaching a gundog to mark a fall...
> *you* wanted to know how to use a clicker to help train a dog to mark, right? :lol:


That's interesting, re the left hand margin bit, and I did try and look at them, but for whatever reason it wouldn't let me, and I hate registering to these things as they usually start sending spam emails.

No, I don't want to teach a gundog to mark a fall with a clicker, but I was using it as an example, possibly for another thread, of something that isn't or doesn't have an obvious way to clicker train? Is it possible to clicker train for everything, I don't know, and that was my question, which is a slight 'con' - as in you need to have a good idea about what is achievable for clicker training, otherwise you're clicking and rewarding for something where you're not sure the dog has actually made the link, but it will repeat the action and possibly look like it's made the link, until you send it out to collect the object and then you find out whether the dog has actually marked where it's fallen accurately. Maybe it's possible to break down the exercise into several parts, and then put it together again.

Apols to the op for going slightly OT, and you're probably never likely to want to teach your dog to accurately mark a fall at a couple of hundred metres, but the point I think I was trying to make by using that example, is to think carefully about how you train an activity; it's easy to assume the dog understands what you're asking of it when it shows the right behaviour after a couple of clicks, and clicker training is a great way to train dogs, but you need to be sure the lesson has gone in by training in different places/situations, which goes for most training really.

I'll come back if I ever think of a way to clicker train a dog to mark a fall, my brain's tired but my immediate thought would be drop an object close to the dog with it sitting steady, and possibly build distance from there, but the sticky bit for me would be at which point do you click?


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## Rolosmum (Oct 29, 2010)

I havent had any negatives, i think the dog learns very quickly that the click signifies the correct behaviour, giving you time to get the treat, and is more effective and consistent than a good boy etc, although once clicker training takes place they are becoming conditioned to training and i find i can then train things without always needing a clicker.

some things it is just very physically difficult to train with a clicker too, simply because you dont have enough hands etc, but on the hole i have found it useful.


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## Rottiefan (Jun 20, 2010)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's interesting, re the left hand margin bit, and I did try and look at them, but for whatever reason it wouldn't let me, and I hate registering to these things as they usually start sending spam emails.
> 
> No, I don't want to teach a gundog to mark a fall with a clicker, but I was using it as an example, possibly for another thread, of something that isn't or doesn't have an obvious way to clicker train? Is it possible to clicker train for everything, I don't know, and that was my question, which is a slight 'con' - as in you need to have a good idea about what is achievable for clicker training, otherwise you're clicking and rewarding for something where you're not sure the dog has actually made the link, but it will repeat the action and possibly look like it's made the link, until you send it out to collect the object and then you find out whether the dog has actually marked where it's fallen accurately. Maybe it's possible to break down the exercise into several parts, and then put it together again.
> 
> ...


How do you teach marking at the moment?

I would imagine that building distance is a good way to go, but I can see the difficulties in clicker training marking at great distances. However, I would also suggest that the behaviour is difficult to train period, as you can never be sure that what your dog has 'marked' is the correct object and not a rabbit running into the brush etc.


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## Colette (Jan 2, 2010)

No idea about clicker training marking - I have zero experience with gundog training, didn't even know what you meant by marking until the term was explained. Sorry that's no help of course!


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## Sleeping_Lion (Mar 19, 2009)

Rottiefan said:


> How do you teach marking at the moment?
> 
> I would imagine that building distance is a good way to go, but I can see the difficulties in clicker training marking at great distances. However, I would also suggest that the behaviour is difficult to train period, as you can never be sure that what your dog has 'marked' is the correct object and not a rabbit running into the brush etc.


It is usually (thankfully) a natural ability for most working bred retrievers, but some dogs do mark better than others. Thankfully, Tau marks better than me, which is all I need! I think for dogs where marking ability isn't that innate, you do train from a short mark, and build it up to a longer, and longer distance.



Colette said:


> No idea about clicker training marking - I have zero experience with gundog training, didn't even know what you meant by marking until the term was explained. Sorry that's no help of course!


Chuckle, it's an odd one, and it's just as I was thinking about clicker training, it occurred to me that it would be difficult, perhaps not really possible, to apply it to something like marking. Of course a working dog will be expected to mark a number of retrieves, then it really does start to get tricky


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

Sleeping_Lion said:


> That's interesting, re the left hand margin bit, and I did try and look at them,
> but for whatever reason it wouldn't let me, & *I hate registering*... as they usually start sending spam emails.


U don't *register* to read inside a book on Amazon; if *'search inside'* is enabled, 
U simply click on it, & a pop-up window of text opens. Or go to the box on the left, type a word or phrase, 
& search specifically.

U do have to allow a pop-up, at least on that website/page, or it won't work - but anyone can access it.


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## leashedForLife (Nov 1, 2009)

here's a good, short thread from 2010 - 
Clicker Training - Pet Forums Community

lots of meat there.


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